# Potty training - 10 days and then....



## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

sigh...I'm frustrated tonight. We've gone 10 days no accident with Kipling and just now he peed on our floor right in front of the door on our way out for his last pee of the day....he had been our an hour earlier so it wasn't an urgent moment. When do they really really really get it? I must admit I will be glad when the constant worrying about this can subside...

When he went we caught him and gave him a good stern NO and took him out and he for sure knows he did wrong...ears all low, head hanging...

Kipling's mom needs some encouragement please.


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## Mojo's Mom (Jun 6, 2009)

Just wipe it up and stop worrying. He's still just a baby. Keep heaping huge praise when he gets it right, keep alert for his cues that he needs to go. And even if you get everything right, he's still probably going to screw up sometimes.


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

How old is he?
I would say for an average, most pups don't fully "get it" until they are between 6-8 months old. Hang in there!


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

Thank you both..he's 15 weeks. So I do think he's doing well. I just wondered just how much longer. I've never had a puppy. Between 6 and 8 mos gives me something to keep in mind though I do understand each puppy is different. Appreciate the responses!


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## murphymoesmamma (Apr 1, 2009)

Holy cow, ten days without an accident at 15 weeks is awesome. Murphy didn't go 10 days without an accident until he was probably 7 months old. He is now 11 months and he still isn't 100%. He absolutely knows where he is supposed to go but he just can't resist peeing up against furniture from time to time, and will also pee if I have the nerve to leave him at home by himself for a time. I know that I have heard that there is no such thing as spite peeing but I have gone from calling them accidents to on purposes.:Cry:


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

MopTop Havanese said:


> How old is he?
> I would say for an average, most pups don't fully "get it" until they are between 6-8 months old. Hang in there!


I'd be ranting at a dog that old and they'd be so sick of me that they'd give in just to shut me up. I send them out at 10-12 weeks almost potty trained. They have a couple of boo boos but not many as long as the person follows what I start. Dogs are a lot smarter than what we give them credit for. They know what we'll tolerate and won't and that one is high on my do not do list and they know it.
My spoo was by far the hardest to potty train but that's because we didn't communicate well on it. She was 4 months old and not fully trained. I was throwing my arms up in the air and happened to talk to a guy in Petsmart who was telling me he put bells by the back door for his dogs to ring (greyhounds). I thought it was nuts but bought a parrot bell, hung it up, showed her how to ring it, and that was it.....she was fully trained in a couple of minutes. She is one who won't scratch a door and the bells did the trick.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

murphymoesmamma said:


> I know that I have heard that there is no such thing as spite peeing but I have gone from calling them accidents to on purposes.:Cry:


i don't buy that theory. Dogs aren't stupid, they know what they're doing and they do have emotions.


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

*He is still too young...*



JASHavanese said:


> i don't buy that theory. Dogs aren't stupid, they know what they're doing and they do have emotions.


I don't either! Dexter has been potty trained for a good while now, but, he still has accidents especially if he has diarrhea or vomits.

All of a sudden the Hav brain connects with bladder, then the Hav understands it is NOT ok to use his home to potty in.

When I first started potty training Dexter, I actually used a timer!

Keep taking the puppy out to potty every 45 minutes slowly extending the time to every 2 hours. Also, take puppy out after playtime, naps, and meals and of course bathing. And.... before you know it, you will lose track of the last time you took your Hav outside to potty, then you freak! Come on, let's go outside!


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

OK...so...I think I'm losing track so let me just make sure I'm understanding. At 15 weeks Kipling is going several days (from 6-10 days) no accident. This is good but some believe he can be fully trained at this point or right around now. 

We crate him when we are not watching him. We praise him when he goes outside. We are very consistent and we watch him for signs. I take from all of this that we are doing the right things. 

I also take from this that at 15 weeks he knows (which is what I thought all along) and that we need to ensure he knows what we will and will not tolerate. He was clear after the accident yesterday that this was not ok. The tone in my NO and the immediate taking him outside plus his body language tells me that. 

Am I tracking?


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I recommend you pick up a copy of the book, "How to teach a new dog old tricks" by Dr. Ian Dunbar. It will help give you some insight to how dogs "think" and how to teach them a little easier as you grasp what works for them.


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

Right...I've done a lot of reading..it's more about the experiences people have had with this breed that I wondered about. Thanks everyone!


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## tabby2 (Jan 19, 2009)

For what it's worth, here's my input as a non-breeder, pet owner. BJ is my first Havanese, but I've had Shelties, Cavaliers and Brittanys; hands down, Beejie is the most challenging for potty training. Some of it, I'm convinced, is because Havs are so small and their bladders are correspondingly small so they go more, but i've always been very good at potty training -- until BJ! We'd be doing fine until the split second that my attention was diverted and then bam! Usually only happened a couple of times a week but it was discouraging. 

He's now 7 months old, and I noticed a huge difference when he got to 6 months -- another local Hav owner (who's doing amazing things in agility with her now 2 year old Hav, so she's good at training) told me that she was at her wit's end until her Hav was 6 months old and then just "got it". I still watch him very closely and there are very occasional accidents. For example, yesterday, my Cavalier threw up in the living room because of some medicine she's on. While I was cleaning that up, BJ pooped in the kitchen -- and he came inside from the courtyard (where he does his business) in order to do that! First accident in probably three weeks. 

In any case, sounds to me like you're doing great with your little Hav. Hang in there!


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

Thank you very much - this is very encouraging. We will press on!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

sounds like you have learned the fundamentals. The only thing I wouldn't do is use any sort of a harsh voice when you catch them after the fact. If you see your dog about to go, you can use a verbal interrupter and then quickly pick them up and take them outside. If you catch them even three seconds after the fact, don't say anything ,simple take them out. Scolding (even a firm no) can cause them anxiety, and the next time they will hide to do their business. You've got the right idea though. Vigilance is key.


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

Thank you Dave...that's helpful. So difficult not to say a firm no when that's exactly what I'm feeling. Do they really learn just through the consistency and the positive good boy's and no disapproval? I think for me that's been the hardest thing to really internalize.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

here is an excerpt from When Pigs Fly (an excellent book) by Jane Killion. 

If your dog is under a year old and he occasionally just goes in the house without
warning, understand that is natural. Like young children, some dogs develop
physical control over their bladder and bowels faster than others. It appears to me
that dogs under a year sometimes don't even feel the urge to go and are surprised
to find themselves dirtying the house. Some dogs will be perfectly housetrained at
eight weeks, and some dogs will be unreliable until they are a year old. Although
it is not desirable to have a dog that still occasionally messes in the house at 10
months old, there is not necessarily anything wrong with that dog.
The most common housetraining problem I see is that people have unrealistic
expectations of how long a puppy can wait between trips outside. A young puppy
may need to go out fifteen times a day. A two year old rescue dog that has never
been housetrained also might need to go out fifteen times a day. The more predictable
you are about taking out your dog when he needs it, the more likely he is
to "hold it" until you let him outside. Every time you give your dog the chance to
go outside when he needs to, he is reinforced by being able to honor his instinct to
be clean. Every time you fail to get your dog out in time and he goes in the house,
you have damaged your dog's instinct to go outside and he is reinforced for going
in the house by the relief he feels. Remember the definition of reinforcement?
Reinforcement increases behavior. Thus, every time you get your dog or puppy
outside in time, you increase the behavior or going outside. Every time you fail to
get him out in time you increase the behavior of soiling in the house. Eventually,
you will not need to go out so many times a day, but with puppies or remedial
dogs you need to take them out often until the behavior of going to the bathroom
outside is a strong one.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

KSC said:


> Thank you Dave...that's helpful. So difficult not to say a firm no when that's exactly what I'm feeling. Do they really learn just through the consistency and the positive good boy's and no disapproval? I think for me that's been the hardest thing to really internalize.


Like the above article explains ,they learn best from reinforcement. They really don't learn anything from the word no. It might stop them at the moment but it is only temporary. . If you want to learn more about the word NO . do a search for NO NO No that I posted a month ago. You are doing great just keep up what you're doing and try get out on a regular and predictable (for your dog) schedule.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

KSC said:


> Thank you Dave...that's helpful. So difficult not to say a firm no when that's exactly what I'm feeling. Do they really learn just through the consistency and the positive good boy's and no disapproval? I think for me that's been the hardest thing to really internalize.


I know you said you've done a lot of reading, but with this question, I think you'll really gain a huge understanding by grabbing a copy of "How to teach a new dog old tricks" and read it. You'll be pleasantly surprised.


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

Great - thanks to both of you Dave and Kimberly. Dave the reinforcement information is probably the best I've seen yet in explaining it. Despite reading it, and hearing it presented in many different ways, my brain still had difficulty with the concept - and BTW that is not to say I'm hollering at my puppy. I just had difficulty with the logic until I read this explanation of how reinforcement works. Kipling is on a predictable scheduled because I work from home. We know when he poos and how often he tends to need to go out. I also am very clear on when he likes to nap. We praise him richly when he goes outside which is usually at this point like I said. Last night was just a complete surprise. He was standing right at the door and we were getting our shoes on to take him out. It surprised me but your post helped with that too. thanks!


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

Havtahava said:


> I know you said you've done a lot of reading, but with this question, I think you'll really gain a huge understanding by grabbing a copy of "How to teach a new dog old tricks" and read it. You'll be pleasantly surprised.


What I also keep forgetting to post is that I've got Before and After Getting Your Puppy: The Positive Approach to Raising a Happy, Healthy, and Well-Behaved Dog by Ian Dunbar - seems the book your recommend is by the same author?


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yep both are. The Teaching A New Dog Old Tricks is also a good read. Although Ian was thinking of making it available at Dog Star Daily for a free download, it is not quite there yet. Go to Dogwise and get Culture Clash while you are at it. LOL .


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## Mojo's Mom (Jun 6, 2009)

I don't think it's right to say that they may not "get it" until they are 6 months old or more. I think they "get it" much earlier, it's more a matter of having full self control. My granddaughter fully "got it" on potty training some weeks ago, but if she gets seriously distracted she may still have an accident. It's a matter of where the dogs attention is, and what his/her level of excitement is, I think, rather than a lack of understanding on the dogs part.

Also, I notice that if Mojo is in a hard play session with another dog, he needs to go much more often than when home alone with us. We've been lucky with Mojo, and the breeder did a great job with him. He was mostly potty trained when he came home at 9 weeks, had very few accidents, and has been fully potty trained since about 12 weeks. I still wouldn't be surprised if he had an accident, but if he did it would probably be because I missed his request to go out.

As far as spite peeing goes, I don't know what else you would call what my last dog did: leave me alone for more than two hours, fine, I'll pee on your bed. I think that's a pretty clear message.


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

Mojo's Mom said:


> I don't think it's right to say that they may not "get it" until they are 6 months old or more. I think they "get it" much earlier, it's more a matter of having full self control. My granddaughter fully "got it" on potty training some weeks ago, but if she gets seriously distracted she may still have an accident. It's a matter of where the dogs attention is, and what his/her level of excitement is, I think, rather than a lack of understanding on the dogs part.


Good point...he definitely knows. Funny enough I had been playing with him just before this happened....that could also have been part of it...we weren't moving fast enough to get him out. Lesson learned


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> sounds like you have learned the fundamentals. The only thing I wouldn't do is use any sort of a harsh voice when you catch them after the fact. If you see your dog about to go, you can use a verbal interrupter and then quickly pick them up and take them outside. If you catch them even three seconds after the fact, don't say anything ,simple take them out. Scolding (even a firm no) can cause them anxiety, and the next time they will hide to do their business. You've got the right idea though. Vigilance is key.


Fortunately, we seem to be past the accident stage with Kodi unless _WE_ seriously mis-read the signs. But about the "interrupter" thing...

I had read about that in several places, and how it actually made the puppy's sphincter muscles tighten up, giving you time to get them where they were supposed to be. That didn't work with us at all. Every time we tried that (admittedly, only for peeing... he's never had a poop accident in the house) we would clap loudly and say "NO!" as we were diving for him to get him outside or to the litter box. The result; he ended up hosing down the kitchen and us on the way. :Cry: I guess I still would have done it, because I certainly wasn't going to let him think it was OK to go where he was, but it sure didn't make any less mess!

I think the biggest helps for us have been that:

1. We got a puppy who was off to a really good start on house training even before we brought him home at 10 weeks.

2. He was closely confined or closely supervised in a larger (kitchen with no rug) area until he proved that he was handling that area. Only when we were confident in his ability in that area did we add (supervised) access to the family room, and he still doesn't get more freedom than that.

3. He has the alternative of a litter box always at his disposal if he can't make it outside, or if the weather is bad enough that going out is aversive.

4. We consistently praise him, but we make an even bigger deal when _HE_ makes the right choice to leave off playing and either ask to go out, or use the litter box on his own.

He's 18 weeks now, and I can't remember how long ago he had his last accident. (hope I didn't just jinx myself!:amen


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## oohbetty (Mar 2, 2009)

I think you're doing everything right. He has a natural instinct to keep his den clean and you are doing the right things to encourage that. My pup used to have accidents right by the door. It's like he's thinking, "Oh good, I'm going out! I'm so excited! I can relax now. oops." 

I was as neurotic as you when I was training but it paid off. Don't get too discouraged, just enjoy him.

Betty


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

oohbetty said:


> I think you're doing everything right. He has a natural instinct to keep his den clean and you are doing the right things to encourage that. My pup used to have accidents right by the door. It's like he's thinking, "Oh good, I'm going out! I'm so excited! I can relax now. oops."
> 
> I was as neurotic as you when I was training but it paid off. Don't get too discouraged, just enjoy him.
> 
> Betty


LOL..and that's the key right? Balancing 'neurotic' with 'enjoy him' - I'm working on that one for sure. But I will say the day I can confidently say oh no..Kipling would never mess in the house will be a happy day!

Yesterday he tried to vanish into the living room where he's not allowed but I caught him and ushered him to the front door. Sure enough he went out and did his business. I know what he had in mind but this time I foiled his plot!


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