# grain free



## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

https://www.wfla.com/8-on-your-side...d-could-be-linked-to-heart-disease/1314104476

What do you all think about the latest on this? I'm asking because I had been feeding Perry grain free for the last year - and recently switched to Fromm and some of that is grain free. I don't want to stop it if it's not that serious (do you think it would have happened by now if it were going to?) - though will consider with the next batch of getting the regular Fromm/ not the grain free, but if I decide not to feed him what I have right now that means a few months of either really low quality dog food (I mean really really low) or figuring out a home cooked diet - until we can get back to the US and get different food.

The irony is that I switched from wellness core (grainfree) because everyone kept saying that Fromm was better - but when I now look at the ingredients, Wellness core only has 1 of the potentially problematic ingredients (potatoes) and they're 7th in the list, while Fromm has 4 or 5 of the potentially problematic ingredients and their 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc in the list of ingredients.

On other food issues - I decided to switch him off chicken because so many people were talking about chicken allergies. He's still chewing on his feet a little too much, but getting rid of the chicken has improved the runny eyes. I know it was that because we were off it when we were in the US (and had added the new probiotic) and the eyes had cleared up a lot, when we came back I had a little of the chicken left, so I was mixing it with his new food - and the runny eyes came back, then just threw the rest away and am just using the new food, and the eyes have cleared up. They're still slightly damp, but no where near as bad.


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

Melissa Brill said:


> https://www.wfla.com/8-on-your-side...d-could-be-linked-to-heart-disease/1314104476
> 
> What do you all think about the latest on this?


Melissa, the report on the federal site states that the breeds that are most affected are the large breeds, not common in small or medium sized breeds (except Cocker Spaniels). They also say, "it is not yet known how these ingredients are linked" to the disease. I totally agree that one needs to side on the safe side, just in case.

It is good to be aware of not too much starch for your pet. Read: https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/are-potatoes-good-for-dogs-and-other-questions-about-starch/

I feed Orijen raw/dry food to my cat, and I am hoping to keep to that same brand for my puppy, if he likes it as much as my cat likes it. You can check out its analysis at: https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/orijen-dog-food-usa/

Not sure if I answered your question, but hope it helps some.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

*small breeds*



Jeanniek said:


> Melissa, the report on the federal site states that the breeds that are most affected are the large breeds, not common in small or medium sized breeds (except Cocker Spaniels). They also say, "it is not yet known how these ingredients are linked" to the disease. I totally agree that one needs to side on the safe side, just in case.
> 
> It is good to be aware of not too much starch for your pet. Read: https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/are-potatoes-good-for-dogs-and-other-questions-about-starch/
> 
> ...


They did say that it has in the past affected large breeds more, but that one of the reasons it's become a concern is because they were seeing it more in small breeds.

To be safe I think I will definitely be switching from Fromm in December (new food TBD)- but the question is whether it's enough of a risk that I should get rid of all the Fromm food I have right now and figure out another option.

For those of you who might not know, I live in Uganda, so I pick up Perry's food in the US twice a year when I'm there -other than home cooked there are no good food options that I can find here (and I won't switch permanently to home cooked because we travel too much and I need a kibble for that)... and we just came back with 5 bags of Fromm and 5 bags of Stella and Chewey freeze dried. He gets both because (1)I wasn't sure how many bags of freeze dried he needed for 6 months and (2)buying that much at once is really expensive. and (3)I'd like to keep him at least partially on a kibble because it easier to deal with in hotels, traveling, etc. He gets the freeze dried in the morning and the Fromm at night.


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

Melissa Brill said:


> we just came back with 5 bags of Fromm and 5 bags of Stella and Chewey freeze dried..


I am so glad you mentioned Stella and Chewy! I had heard that was really good, and I was going to check it out but forgot! I thought I could buy a small bag of that and incorporate it as part of my treats, to start with. So, thanks!

If I were you, I'd keep what you are doing - - you are providing your dog with the vitamins/minerals it needs through Stella and Chewy for now, if not necessarily through Fromm, and we don't know that for sure at this time. If you were only feeding Fromm, my advice would be different, but I think you're okay for now. When you come back to the states, we may know more and you can make a decision based on what we know at that time.

In just looking up Stella and Chewy right now, I read this regarding your concern. I personally thought it was a good advice. This is what the article recommended:

As of this moment&#8230; The FDA is just beginning its investigation. Results are not yet available.

It will take time and considerably more research to determine if there's a definite link between grain-free dog foods and DCM. Until we know for sure&#8230; Be patient. Don't overreact. And don't be frightened by all the well-meaning yet misguided advice you'll surely encounter on the Internet.

Base your feeding decisions on facts and science. Especially accurate label analysis.

Keep in mind&#8230; Many of the very best dog foods on the market are grain free&#8230; And they're made by some of the most respected companies in the USA and Canada. We're confident the industry will quickly adapt its recipes to any decisive conclusions reached by the FDA's future findings.

Should that be necessary. Until then&#8230; Our very best advice&#8230; Stay Informed


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

*good advice*



Jeanniek said:


> I am so glad you mentioned Stella and Chewy! I had heard that was really good, and I was going to check it out but forgot! I thought I could buy a small bag of that and incorporate it as part of my treats, to start with. So, thanks!
> 
> If I were you, I'd keep what you are doing - - you are providing your dog with the vitamins/minerals it needs through Stella and Chewy for now, if not necessarily through Fromm, and we don't know that for sure at this time. If you were only feeding Fromm, my advice would be different, but I think you're okay for now. When you come back to the states, we may know more and you can make a decision based on what we know at that time.
> 
> ...


Definitely good advice

I just started on the Stella and Chewy. We did have meal mixers previously - and I thought they smelled a little too meaty to me, but the "super beef patties" aren't nearly as strong smelling. And if Perry's reaction to them is any indication, they're super tasty from a dog's perspective. Now, in the morning, he is almost forcing me out the door to go to work because he wants his breakfast (I put his breakfast in his crate with him when I leave and my housekeeper lets him on when she gets there). I'm serious. From 6-6:30 he'll lounge on the bed while I get ready, then when we walk out of the bedroom he's dancing on his back legs trying desperately to sniff the food sitting on the counter in the dining room. Then I will watch TV for a bit, but by 6:45-6:50 he's up and moving back and forth from where I sit to the hall way (to the bedroom). I can hear him thinking "MOM, come on, IT'S TIME FOR BREAKFAST!!!!"


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I've been watching this and asked Sabine for her thoughts Here's her reply ....
"The jury is still out on just what exactly we are seeing pop up. It reminds me of a similar occurrence with lamb and rice based diets that demonstrated the need for taurine supplementation for the formulas.

If you want to supplement taurine, your best bet is to feed unprocessed taurine-rich fresh foods."

FDA Investigates Potential Connection to Diet and Heart Disease in Dogs ? Truth about Pet Food

Don't over react to this . I'm sure more will come out. Feed the best food you can it always pays dividends. I've supplimented taurine for years.


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## Henry&Kate (Mar 29, 2017)

The other detail missing from the FDA report is the quality of the food they were being fed. Grain free has become very popular and now the cheaper supermarket brands offer a grain free products. But high quality grain free dog foods are expensive because they contain more meat and meat products. The cheaper brands of dog food have always used corn and other starches to fill them out and I suspect when they went grain free they replaced the high levels of corn with high levels of peas and potatoes. 

In higher quality grain free foods these ingredients are present but in much smaller quantities. So is it their presence or is it too much of them? We don't know. 

Definitely something to stay aware of but I have to think that feeding a high quality food is your best bet against these until more information is available. 

Henry really loves the Stella and Chewy's Duck Duck Goose variety.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Just a related anecdote. My friend who brought her Golden Retriever over the other day gave Shama some homemade liver treats which she had baked with regular flour. I mentioned that Shama eats grain-free food, and she said that's been linked to heart disease . . .


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

don't believe everything you hear . It's being investigated. Here's another example on bogus info .

__
https://176160770601%2Fdodds-rebuttal%23.W1dl4tJKjIU


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

I don't believe everything I hear. That's why I said it was an anecdote. Shama eats only the food her breeder told us she should eat (NOW Fresh Small Breed Adult Dog Food and Wellness soft). Her contract stated we had to consult her before changing her food. Of course I also give Shama a variety of training treats as well as boiled chicken for agility. We always read the ingredients on the training treat bags and try to make healthy choices. Thanks for all the information you share in the forum, Dave!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

I don't believe everything I hear either, but we're not talking some weird website reporting - it is a federal study. Yes, I know that it's just preliminary.



Henry&Kate said:


> The other detail missing from the FDA report is the quality of the food they were being fed. Grain free has become very popular and now the cheaper supermarket brands offer a grain free products. But high quality grain free dog foods are expensive because they contain more meat and meat products. The cheaper brands of dog food have always used corn and other starches to fill them out and I suspect when they went grain free they replaced the high levels of corn with high levels of peas and potatoes.
> 
> In higher quality grain free foods these ingredients are present but in much smaller quantities. So is it their presence or is it too much of them? We don't know.
> 
> ...


I agree - generally, but one of the foods many people recommend as one of the best (and I just switched to) - Fromm's has peas, lentils, potatoes, and related foods as their 3rd/ 4th ingredients - and have 5-6 of these in every recipe I checked out - so following the theory that the higher on the ingredients list the bigger the percentage, I'd say that this is not in small quantities. The study didn't mention specific brands only mentioned the ingredients.


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

Melissa Brill said:


> I agree - generally, but one of the foods many people recommend as one of the best (and I just switched to) - Fromm's has peas, lentils, potatoes, and related foods as their 3rd/ 4th ingredients - and have 5-6 of these in every recipe I checked out - so following the theory that the higher on the ingredients list the bigger the percentage, I'd say that this is not in small quantities. The study didn't mention specific brands only mentioned the ingredients.


I looked up the DogFoodAdvisor's recommendation on Fromm's grain-free foods, both the Gold and the Nutritional, and they are both rated 4-1/2 stars out of 5, and are highly recommended because of its high meat content. They look at the actual percentages of all the foods, not just how they are listed on the analysis. They say both of those Fromm's products are over average in protein and fat, and under-average in carbs.

I think it is fair to say, like someone else mentioned, that there is a difference in the quality between the more expensive grain-free dog food and the cheaper ones. Having an abundance of meat in there helps with providing your dog the taurine it needs.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

*proportion protein*



Jeanniek said:


> I looked up the DogFoodAdvisor's recommendation on Fromm's grain-free foods, both the Gold and the Nutritional, and they are both rated 4-1/2 stars out of 5, and are highly recommended because of its high meat content. They look at the actual percentages of all the foods, not just how they are listed on the analysis. They say both of those Fromm's products are over average in protein and fat, and under-average in carbs.
> 
> I think it is fair to say, like someone else mentioned, that there is a difference in the quality between the more expensive grain-free dog food and the cheaper ones. Having an abundance of meat in there helps with providing your dog the taurine it needs.


Good to know, the general rule of thumb is the higher in the list, the higher the proportion, and another source said as long as they weren't in the first 5 or so ingredients - but good to know that despite that, it's not really as high as it seems.


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

And, I would say that is a good rule of thumb. But one doesn't know if Ingredient#1 is 51% of the amount in the food, for example, but by the time you get to Ingredient #3, it has dropped to 5% and everything after that is even much lower. That is the problem with just the ingredients being listed and not the percentages. I wish every time I knew the percentages even when looking at human food!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

from Sabine's site

The Dog Food Project - Dog Food Label Information 101

The Dog Food Project - Identifying better products


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

davetgabby said:


> from Sabine's site
> 
> The Dog Food Project - Dog Food Label Information 101
> 
> The Dog Food Project - Identifying better products


Good information. It's crazy how the information is manipulated!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

*information manipulation*



Jeanniek said:


> Good information. It's crazy how the information is manipulated!


I always find that interesting. For example (not dog related), my Mom had a bottle of aloe vera and it said 
"Aloe Vera 100% gel"

How many people do you think saw that and thought - oh good, it's 100% aloe...  There are ways to tell the truth but seriously manipulate it as well.


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## Henry&Kate (Mar 29, 2017)

> How many people do you think saw that and thought - oh good, it's 100% aloe... There are ways to tell the truth but seriously manipulate it as well.


Absolutely. That's funny about the aloe vera. It's 100% gel! Doesn't have quite the same appeal.

This is no guarantee of course but in addition to looking at labels etc I do look at smaller family owned dog food companies. Many of them began because they wanted the best for their dogs. They are associating their own names and faces with products. it seems so often that even high quality dog foods deteriorate once they've been swallowed up by the huge food companies, which happens way too often.


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## Barbara Levy (Apr 22, 2016)

So I don't have to worry over every new study, I just try to balance what Loki is eating. Just like us, I figure everything (except chocolate and grapes) in moderation. He primarily eats Holistic Select grain free canned food - I vary the protein. He also gets a 1/4 cup Verus kibble that has barley and oats. I also give him whatever vegetables and/or fruit we are having. His favorites - broccoli, green beans (but only roasted not steamed), zucchini and summer squash, tomatoes, melon, strawberries, and blueberries. Occasionally, he gets a little peanut butter or plain yogurt in a kong. He is healthy and lean. I figure he is getting a good varied diet. 

Oh, I forgot - he really loves eggs with a little cheese in them. He gets some when I make them on the weekends.


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## Henry&Kate (Mar 29, 2017)

Good advice, Barbara.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Melissa Brill said:


> What do you all think about the latest on this? I'm asking because I had been feeding Perry grain free for the last year - and recently switched to Fromm and some of that is grain free. I don't want to stop it if it's not that serious (do you think it would have happened by now if it were going to?) - though will consider with the next batch of getting the regular Fromm/ not the grain free, but if I decide not to feed him what I have right now that means a few months of either really low quality dog food (I mean really really low) or figuring out a home cooked diet - until we can get back to the US and get different food.


Ricky eats Honest Kitchen dehydrated food and we mix in the protein, usually boiled chicken breast or sometimes tuna or lean beef. We then mix in a little bit of dry kibble to balance things out. I agree with @Barbara Levy that a balanced diet, in moderation, is best. Remember that dogs are basically carnivores and a pet nutritionist told me that vegetables, fruits, and grains just pass right on through while extracting some essential nutrients. The danger, in my opinion. is feeding a grain free diet that may be high in protein but low in other essential nutrients, in other words just cheap fillers. We give Ricky very little cheese and peanut butter (only in moderation) because of the danger of pancreatitis. Stay informed, stay vigilant.



> On other food issues - I decided to switch him off chicken because so many people were talking about chicken allergies. He's still chewing on his feet a little too much, but getting rid of the chicken has improved the runny eyes. I know it was that because we were off it when we were in the US (and had added the new probiotic) and the eyes had cleared up a lot, when we came back I had a little of the chicken left, so I was mixing it with his new food - and the runny eyes came back, then just threw the rest away and am just using the new food, and the eyes have cleared up. They're still slightly damp, but no where near as bad.


Ricky gets various supplements on a daily basis including probiotics. He still had runny eyes and tear staining. The Vet sent us to a canine ophthalmologist a couple of years ago and said he had healthy eyes. The Vet said that's good, then something else might be the problem, maybe seasonal allergies. He told us to try one half a human Benedryll (they come in 25mg tablet so half would be 12.5 mg.) with Ricky's morning meal. The runny eyes (which the Vet said was primarily mucus) went away and so did the tear staining. I am NOT telling you to try this. I'm just saying what has worked for Ricky. ALWAYS CONSULT WITH YOUR TRUSTED VET BEFORE TRYING ANYTHING NEW. Every dog is different.


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## Jackie Jones (Mar 29, 2017)

I'm glad you brought this up. My daughter sent me a link to an article about this. We just started feeding Molly Instinct Raw boost. It's the first food she really loves. As long as I supplement it with venison from our freezer that I cook and chop and add to her food with the venison broth. Her food doesn't have sweet potatoes and has 37% protein plus what I supplement. I actually meant to ask the vet about it, but forgot with all the other issues going on. I'll watch and wait but she is definitely allergic to some grain. When I feed her grain she scratches incessantly and her eyes weep really bad. Grain free, she doesn't scratch and her eyes are much improved. What are the long term effects of an untreated allergy? I heard that the weeping from the eyes is an indication of what's going on internally. I "know" the grain is affecting her, I don't "know" that her heart is being affected. I'll have to hear something more definitive before I act on this.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

a few weeks ago I wrote Jean Dodds a letter about this. and maybe a few others. Here is her article

__
https://176405475391%2Ffda-dog-heart-disease


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Ricky's Popi - you mentioned that you give Ricky a taurine supplement - what do you give him and what dosage?


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

I'm so confused after reading this. I want to change what I'm feeding my 5 month old and would like an uncomplicated answer. Someone JUST TELL ME! :crying: She's getting Royal Canine Kibble and I've periodically added broth or other canned food. I have treats and always buy Made in America. I'm not interested in cooking her food. Interesting topic.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

*'just tell me'*



Mikki said:


> I'm so confused after reading this. I want to change what I'm feeding my 5 month old and would like an uncomplicated answer. Someone JUST TELL ME! :crying: She's getting Royal Canine Kibble and I've periodically added broth or other canned food. I have treats and always buy Made in America. I'm not interested in cooking her food. Interesting topic.


Don't you wish it would work like that? There are so many choices and so many opinions and everyone has made a decision based on what they think is the best they can do. Sometimes you make a choice and then someone says 'you could do better than that' even though you did the research and it was a 5 star food... or you make a choice and then keep reading and think 'maybe that one is really better'. It's a never ending cycle (says the person who seems to change every 6 months - hopefully that will end soon).

Dogfoodadvisor.com is a good place to start - you can look at their 5 start or 4 1/2 star foods and see what seems like the best that you can afford. You can do what I do which is to mix something I think is really high end (stella and chewy freeze dried patties) with kibble (I do one morning the other evening) because one is really really expensive so this improves his food but doesn't bankrupt us . You can go with canned or raw or kibble - or a combination. I know, the choices are endless.

Sorry not to be more help, but it should be difficult for anyone to tell you what to do because your circumstances aren't exactly the same as someone else's.


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

Melissa, can one put the freeze dried in a Kong as a treat? How long does it last once it is thawed out?


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

*freeze dried*



Jeanniek said:


> Melissa, can one put the freeze dried in a Kong as a treat? How long does it last once it is thawed out?


Hi Jeannie

The freeze dried isn't actually frozen (despite the name) - it's dry which is why I can bring it with me from the US to Uganda. They come in resealable bags like the small bags of kibble, and I thnk they last as long as kibble would. The meal mixers are in smaller pieces, the patties are kind of hockey puck size rounds. I break them up and moisten them to serve though I think you can serve them dry too.

As for the Kong - hmmm, maybe? It might depend on how much you moisten them and what size pieces you break them into. I would never be able to do it with as much water as I add, but maybe with less it would sort of be like loose can food, but I'm not really sure. My first instinct was that it would fall apart too much, but I also guess it would depend on how much you packed it in.


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## Henry&Kate (Mar 29, 2017)

I think what you can do with a kong is to moisten the freeze dried food, stuff the kong with and then freeze it. Then you can give the dog the frozen kong. 

I feed something similar to Melissa. I feed about 1/2 good quality kibble mixed with a broken up Stella and Chewy's patty and moisten the while thing. 

And I totally understand and sympathize with feeling overwhelmed by the variety of foods all claiming to be best. arghh.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Henry&Kate said:


> I think what you can do with a kong is to moisten the freeze dried food, stuff the kong with and then freeze it. Then you can give the dog the frozen kong.
> 
> I feed something similar to Melissa. I feed about 1/2 good quality kibble mixed with a broken up Stella and Chewy's patty and moisten the while thing.
> 
> And I totally understand and sympathize with feeling overwhelmed by the variety of foods all claiming to be best. arghh.


I haven't figured out to stuff a kong, either the stuffing just falls out or if frozen it seems to much of a challenge for my puppy's soft chew mouth. I'll try to moisten the freeze dried food and see if that works.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Melissa Brill said:


> Don't you wish it would work like that? There are so many choices and so many opinions and everyone has made a decision based on what they think is the best they can do. Sometimes you make a choice and then someone says 'you could do better than that' even though you did the research and it was a 5 star food... or you make a choice and then keep reading and think 'maybe that one is really better'. It's a never ending cycle (says the person who seems to change every 6 months - hopefully that will end soon).
> 
> Dogfoodadvisor.com is a good place to start - you can look at their 5 start or 4 1/2 star foods and see what seems like the best that you can afford. You can do what I do which is to mix something I think is really high end (stella and chewy freeze dried patties) with kibble (I do one morning the other evening) because one is really really expensive so this improves his food but doesn't bankrupt us . You can go with canned or raw or kibble - or a combination. I know, the choices are endless.
> 
> Sorry not to be more help, but it should be difficult for anyone to tell you what to do because your circumstances aren't exactly the same as someone else's.


Thanks! for the helpful reply.

There was a time when a puppy peed on the floor you rubbed their nose in it and threw them outside. That housebreaking worked on all my other dogs.

I had a doggie door and they went outside to do their job when they decided to go.I never thought about having to be outside to protect them from a coyote or buzzard swooping in to get them and I've always had small almost toy sized dogs.

There was a time I went to the grocery store and bought dog food never thinking about what was in it. If they liked it we feed it to them and my last dog was 17 years old when she died.

Previous to this puppy I never gave a dog a treat to them for coming to me. When I called their name them came. Somehow they knew to come when called and I never thought about them not coming.

When they did something I didn't like I said No! and corrected them never worrying they'd be afraid of me. They always seemed to love me the best, as I was the one who feed and mainly took care of them.

Never heard of an ex-pen or putting them in crates.

Right now .... I've spent more money on this Havanese puppy than I probably did in a life time on all my other dogs, as well as, spent more time worrying about what to feed or how to train her.

Just sayin' :nerd:


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## Henry&Kate (Mar 29, 2017)

I know what you mean, Mikki. Things have changed a lot. I also think about how growing up I rode my bike wherever I wanted alone and with other kids (_never_ with adults) and never heard of a helmet. As a toddler I rode in a car seat like this - beep beep! I still remember the little red horn. They sprayed our neighborhood in the summer with DDT!!! for mosquitoes. Our dog and everyone else's ran loose in our neighborhood. She just followed me wherever I went and sat outside waiting for me to come back out. My kindergarten was just under a mile away and a neighbor walked me to school every day. he was in first grade so obviously so much wiser and responsible than I. Today someone would call social services on both our parents.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Henry&Kate said:


> I know what you mean, Mikki. Things have changed a lot. I also think about how growing up I rode my bike wherever I wanted alone and with other kids (_never_ with adults) and never heard of a helmet. As a toddler I rode in a car seat like this - beep beep! I still remember the little red horn. They sprayed our neighborhood in the summer with DDT!!! for mosquitoes. Our dog and everyone else's ran loose in our neighborhood. She just followed me wherever I went and sat outside waiting for me to come back out. My kindergarten was just under a mile away and a neighbor walked me to school every day. he was in first grade so obviously so much wiser and responsible than I. Today someone would call social services on both our parents.


LOL!!!:surprise::tea:


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

Mikki said:


> I haven't figured out to stuff a kong, either the stuffing just falls out or if frozen it seems to much of a challenge for my puppy's soft chew mouth. I'll try to moisten the freeze dried food and see if that works.


DaveTGabby answered my question on what to do with a Kong with these videos. They are very helpful. Go to:
https://www.havaneseforum.com/6-general-discussion/132546-stuffed-chewy-treats.html


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Jeanniek said:


> DaveTGabby answered my question on what to do with a Kong with these videos. They are very helpful. Go to:
> https://www.havaneseforum.com/6-general-discussion/132546-stuffed-chewy-treats.html


Thanks, that was helpful.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Henry&Kate said:


> As a toddler I rode in a car seat like this - beep beep! I still remember the little red horn.


I had one of those! So funny what we did as kids compared to what kids do now. Remember those roller skates that would clamp on your shoe and tighten with a key? No knee pads or helmets. I had lots of skinned knees growing up!


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Ricky gets various supplements on a daily basis including probiotics. He still had runny eyes and tear staining. He told us to try one half a human Benedryll (they come in 25mg tablet so half would be 12.5 mg.) with Ricky's morning meal. The runny eyes (which the Vet said was primarily mucus) went away and so did the tear staining. I am NOT telling you to try this. I'm just saying what has worked for Ricky. ALWAYS CONSULT WITH YOUR TRUSTED VET BEFORE TRYING ANYTHING NEW. Every dog is different.


I asked my vet about Benedryll too, as Willow has slightly runny eyes and she also does a lot of feet licking. For her he said to give 1/2 of a children's Benedryll or 1/4 of an adult's. She only weighs between 7.5 and 8 lbs. I haven't tried it yet. Does Ricky seem any different after getting Benedryll? I asked if it would make Willow drowsy. I was told it could make her drowsy but it could also have the opposite effect and make her more hyper. I certainly don't need that! :surprise:

I have noticed that when we are in the eastern half of our state where the weather is much drier and warmer than where we live, she almost stops completely with the feet licking.

By the way, Willow is also fed Honest Kitchen due to your recommendations from some time ago. However I give her the one that includes beef. She loves it and seems to do well on it. It's not grain free. I've never fed any of my dogs grain free but have wondered if I should. I think I'll stick with a good, premium dog food that includes grains such as Honest Kitchen.


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## Henry&Kate (Mar 29, 2017)

this is a blog post on the grain free news from whole dog journal. it gives some perspective and also talks a bit about grain free diets.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

thanks for that article...... shows how people over react.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> I asked my vet about Benedryll too, as Willow has slightly runny eyes and she also does a lot of feet licking. For her he said to give 1/2 of a children's Benedryll or 1/4 of an adult's. She only weighs between 7.5 and 8 lbs. I haven't tried it yet. Does Ricky seem any different after getting Benedryll? I asked if it would make Willow drowsy. I was told it could make her drowsy but it could also have the opposite effect and make her more hyper. I certainly don't need that! :surprise:


It sounds like Willow's Vet and Ricky's Vet are on the same page. Since Ricky weighs TWICE as much as Willow, he gets TWICE the dose of Benedryll. Does Benedryll affect him in any negative way? No. He has always slept about 5 or 6 hours during the day. He has always been hyperactive about 3 times a day for 10 minutes each time, RLH around the house growling and wanting us to chase him and then he crashes and goes to sleep. And he has always walked with me for an hour in the morning and 1/2 hour in the evening, 7 days a week, for a total distance of 3+ miles.  BUT EVERY DOG IS DIFFERENT, YMMV.



> I have noticed that when we are in the eastern half of our state where the weather is much drier and warmer than where we live, she almost stops completely with the feet licking.


Occasionally Ricky will lick his feet. We have discovered it is usually the result of getting something lodged between his paw pads or foot hair - debris of some type (Ricky is fastidious about keeping himself clean, almost like a cat), something smelly from his walk, or something he thinks might be edible. :hungry: We take care of it by washing the paw he is licking with a wash cloth. He stops immediately and loses interest in whatever was there.



> By the way, Willow is also fed Honest Kitchen due to your recommendations from some time ago. However I give her the one that includes beef. She loves it and seems to do well on it. It's not grain free. I've never fed any of my dogs grain free but have wondered if I should. I think I'll stick with a good, premium dog food that includes grains such as Honest Kitchen.





Henry&Kate said:


> this is a blog post on the grain free news from whole dog journal. it gives some perspective and also talks a bit about grain free diets.


Thank you for the link Henry Momi. The issue of grain/grain-free diets is complicated, much like the decision to spa/neuter or not and vaccinate or not. The issues are far from settled. The answer is, it depends. I know that every one on this Forum tries to do what they think is best for their dog. Just don't jump to conclusions without doing a lot of personal research on your own before making a decision. I also think that reasonable moderation is also necessary.

Anyway, that is my current position until I change my mind! :brick:

Ricky's Popi


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

Henry&Kate said:


> this is a blog post on the grain free news from whole dog journal. it gives some perspective and also talks a bit about grain free diets.


Good article. Gave a few points that are worthwhile to consider. I do wish the article had mentioned that "expert" by name. It made me see red that she would tell anyone that we shouldn't be checking the ingredients! Yes, they ingredients list may not be as transparent, or truthful, as we would wish, but it is better than nothing.


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## RoccoChoco (Aug 25, 2017)

In regards to filling Kong's with the freeze-dried food, I do this all the time for Rocco. It's the only thing he gets as a treat. I use the Kong shaped as a bone that is open on both ends, you can also use the xsmall beehive shaped one too. I use Instincts raw boost mixers https://www.instinctpetfood.com/dogs/raw-boost/instinct-raw-boost-mixers-cage-free-chicken-recipe they come in little pellets and you can stuff them down in there. I get about 4 pellets on each end of the bone. They are the exact same formula as their raw food. It works great and there is little to no mess. I do not wet them, but you could and then freeze it. He is on a raw diet, I switch back and forth between Primal and Instict, so this keeps his food and his treats consistent.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

update Some FDA Answers Regarding Investigation into a Possible Connection Between Diet and Canine Heart Disease ? Truth about Pet Food


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

This is all kind of scary. Willow's food contains flaxseed and potatoes, although they are not the first ingredient listed. She eats Verve by Honest Kitchen. I really don't know what I'm going to do. Probably stick with what she gets for now but look at some other Honest Kitchen varieties to compare ingredients. I just wish what she gets didn't have the potatoes and flaxseed.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

"Rather than brands, the common thread appears to be legumes, pulses (seeds of legumes), and/or potatoes as main ingredients in the food. This also includes protein, starch and fiber derivatives of these ingredients, (e.g., pea protein, pea starch, or pea fiber)."

"10. What does the FDA consider a “main ingredient”?

There is no hard and fast rule for what qualifies as a “main ingredient.” We generally consider a “main ingredient” to be listed in a food’s ingredient list before the first vitamin or mineral ingredient."

That definition of main ingredient isn't very helpful. Would be better if they were able to list some sort of percentages or proportion or something.


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

Melissa Brill said:


> "Rather than brands, the common thread appears to be legumes, pulses (seeds of legumes), and/or potatoes as main ingredients in the food. This also includes protein, starch and fiber derivatives of these ingredients, (e.g., pea protein, pea starch, or pea fiber)."
> 
> That definition of main ingredient isn't very helpful. Would be better if they were able to list some sort of percentages or proportion or something.


Definitely would be better, for everyone's food, that we were given percentages. We should start a movement.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

I agree about getting % also! Sure would be helpful. I know they list ingredients in a descending order based on amounts which helps a little. Doesn't tell the whole story though.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

And the FDA clarification doesn't really clarify much when they say it's generally about it being a main ingredient, but then can't clearly define what constitutes a main ingredient.

Other than going completely raw OR fully freeze dried I am not seeing any kibbles that don't have chickpeas or other legumes in what the FDA might consider a main ingredient just based on where it falls in the list. Even stella and chewy kibble has chickpeas as number 3 - while the freeze dried don't have any. 

I can't switch to freeze dried completely. First there is the cost - not so much over time, but given I buy 6 months worth at once that's a lot. But more of an issue is that I did the calculation and I'd need something like 17 bags (of the 25oz) stella and chewy patties for a 6 month period (even more if I switched to primal) - and that would take up waaaaaaay too much suitcase room to bring back with me every trip. 

So, Perry will stay on a kibble for dinner and freeze dried for breakfast. I still can't decide if I should switch the kibble - given that all of them have these ingredients somewhere in the top 10 ingredients do I stay with Fromm (4.5 stars on petfoodadvisor) or switch to something that might have one of the ingredients higher on the list but has fewer of them and gets 5 stars on petfoodadvisor (stella and chewy kibble, orijen, honest kitchen grain free, even wellness core scores better)? I really can't decide. It won't be before December though so plenty of time to think about it.


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

There's a constant advice I read regarding the buying of one's pet's food - - -Buy the best that you can afford. I understand that as pertaining not just to money, but how it impacts the stress factor, because there is a cost to us when we get over-stressed. So, buy the best that fits your circumstances. That's all you can do. However, I know you are aware, it's suggested that you make the change in their diet slowly, so even if you change which kibble you are feeding, you will have to get some Fromm to add to the meal until you completely switch over.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jeanniek said:


> There's a constant advice I read regarding the buying of one's pet's food - - -Buy the best that you can afford. I understand that as pertaining not just to money, but how it impacts the stress factor, because there is a cost to us when we get over-stressed. So, buy the best that fits your circumstances. That's all you can do.


EXCELLENT advice!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> I agree about getting % also! Sure would be helpful. I know they list ingredients in a descending order based on amounts which helps a little. Doesn't tell the whole story though.


I asked Sabine about this , here's her reply "that's not something you can ever really know unless a manufacturer actually tells you. Some don't at all, some give quite a bit of detail.

As a rule of thumb, everything listed before the first source of fat or oil, and including it, are considered the "major" ingredients.

If you look at the Canadian version of Acana Singles Lamb for example, they give you a breakdown:
https://acana.com/our-foods/dog-foods/singles/grass-fed-lamb/
6 kg finished product contains 1.5 kg of fresh lamb meat and 1.5 kg lamb meal. Then in the ingredient list some percentages are listed for animal-based ingredients. Including the 4% lamb fat, that adds up to 50.1%.

Compare Orijen:
https://www.orijen.ca/foods/dog-food/dry-dog-food/original/

Petcurean's NOW Fresh
https://www.petcurean.com/product/now-fresh-grain-free-adult-dog-food-recipe/
Note that there is very little meat, but the focus of this product is to avoid rendered and pre-processed ingredients, so a completely different angle. "

Sabine


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Dave - this still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I guess I'm dense. I looked at what Willow gets which is Honest Kitchen Whole Grain Beef. It says that protein is a minimum of 22.5%, fat a min. of 8.5%, fiber a max. of 5.8% and moisture a max. of 9.5%. That doesn't come close to 100%. The ingredients list beef first, then the grains and flaxseed, then comes vegies, eggs and some fruits. Plus Honest Kitchen is supposed to be human grade. Oh well. She seems to do well on it plus she likes it.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Jackie , here's from Sabine "Foods don't typically list all carbs, only fiber. So that is a major part left out. And then there's ash (the combined mineral content of all ingredients).

And yes, THK is human grade and has defended that claim in court."


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## Henry&Kate (Mar 29, 2017)

> 6 kg finished product contains 1.5 kg of fresh lamb meat and 1.5 kg lamb meal. Then in the ingredient list some percentages are listed for animal-based ingredients. Including the 4% lamb fat, that adds up to 50.1%.


I'm not certain of this but I don't think that's how you add up the ingredients when there are fresh meats involved, because fresh meat includes water which is eliminated during processing so that 1.5 kg becomes something less. I think you need to add up the %s they provide.

I think the Acana Lamb would be Raw grass fed lamb 18% plus lamb meat meal 18% plus lamb liver 4% plus lamb fat 4% for a total of 44%.

also note that Whole green peas and lentils both appear before the lamb fat.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

davetgabby said:


> Jackie , here's from Sabine "Foods don't typically list all carbs, only fiber. So that is a major part left out. And then there's ash (the combined mineral content of all ingredients).
> 
> And yes, THK is human grade and has defended that claim in court."


Thanks Dave. This helps to understand somewhat. I still don't know if what Willow gets is considered good but it is what it is.

Sometimes I think we just get overwhelmed with too much information. Information is good, but geez! We sure spend a lot of time stressing over some stuff!

But keep the info coming!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yeah, Jackie THK is a good reputable company. For someone really not sure what to feed and what supplements to add , I strongly recommend consulting with someone like Sabine. No one that I know of studies the pet food companies as thorough as she does. It's money well spent, whether you want a raw , homecooked or commercial freeze dried , canned or kibble designed diet., she knows her stuff. Remember ,it's recommended to have three different types of protein based diets and to rotate them . Feeding the same food for long periods of time can lead to sensitivity /allergy to that protein. Every dog is different. Sabine will customize her diets to your and your dogs needs. All done online and very reasonably priced. here's her consulting site http://www.betterdogcare.com/?page=about and here's her web site http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=main


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Thanks Dave. I didn't know she did all that. I'm going to certainly save the links.


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## GlenK (Feb 9, 2016)

I was researching some new food for Rocky in dogfoodadvisor.com and ran across this article.

Looks like early stages with more research to do:

https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-...-link-between-diet-and-heart-disease-in-dogs/


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## Tux's Mom (May 24, 2016)

When it was mentioned in the original post that chicken was a cause of allergic like symptoms, I wondered if organic, natural chicken that you would boil with no extra ingredients, would cause the same reaction. Sometimes its the "side" ingredients in prepared dog food that can be the culprit. 

I would be tempted to see if that is the case. Tux had a horrible reaction to a chewable heart worm preventative. The vet said that the reactions he sees are usually from the chewable brick rather than the heart worm preventative itself. I refuse to give Tux any more preventatives anyway, but that was a head's up for me.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Tux's Mom said:


> When it was mentioned in the original post that chicken was a cause of allergic like symptoms, I wondered if organic, natural chicken that you would boil with no extra ingredients, would cause the same reaction. Sometimes its the "side" ingredients in prepared dog food that can be the culprit.


I know that Willow will react to poultry even if it's poultry that I cook and not part of her dog food. Someone mentioned once that perhaps it was the antibiotics that chickens and turkeys are given that causes her diarrhea rather than the poultry meat itself.


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## Tux's Mom (May 24, 2016)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> I know that Willow will react to poultry even if it's poultry that I cook and not part of her dog food. Someone mentioned once that perhaps it was the antibiotics that chickens and turkeys are given that causes her diarrhea rather than the poultry meat itself.


I would try a teeny tiny bit of organic, no anti-biotic boiled chicken just to see. It's hard to believe that carnivorous canines react adversely to chicken. It must be the processing or whatever gets injected for our "protection". Tux eats Primal Freeze dried with selections of different meats. He suddenly stopped eating the beef, but loves the lamb and chicken. I tested him on a piece of organic grass raised beef steak we had for dinner and THAT was ingested with no hesitation or ill effects. Says a lot.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tux's Mom said:


> I would try a teeny tiny bit of organic, no anti-biotic boiled chicken just to see. It's hard to believe that carnivorous canines react adversely to chicken. It must be the processing or whatever gets injected for our "protection". Tux eats Primal Freeze dried with selections of different meats. He suddenly stopped eating the beef, but loves the lamb and chicken. I tested him on a piece of organic grass raised beef steak we had for dinner and THAT was ingested with no hesitation or ill effects. Says a lot.


Actually, it really doesn't matter whether it's organic, anti-biotic free, home-cooked or raw, if your dog has a sensitivity to poultry, and it is probably the most common protein sensitivity. I'm not saying the other things can't be a problem too... I believe they can be. But that is different than an underlying poultry sensitivity. ...And having a dog who is sensitive to beef and fish, I would be REALLY careful about "trying a little bit" of something that you know your dog is sensitive to. If Kodi gets a TINY, TINY amount of either fish or beef, he is itching for days. Not my idea of something I'd subject my dog to just to see if it's an issue of organic or abx free or not.

Not liking the taste of a non-organic, grain fed piece of beef is a long way to having a true food sensitivity for it. Kodi's reaction to beef (and he never had anything but anti-biotic free, grass fed, local beef) includes not only intense itching that last for days, but explosive diarrhea as well. It's not simply that he doesn't want to eat it.


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## Tux's Mom (May 24, 2016)

Wow. That is scary.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tux's Mom said:


> Wow. That is scary.


Mostly just very frustrating before we had the testing done that confirmed what he was sensitive to. And aversive enough that I've never had the LEAST interest in trying a little bit on purpose. 

I'm allergic to tree nuts (as in anaphylaxis) I've been told by a number of people (including some experts, that almonds are "different", and that it's highly unlikely that I am allergic to them. But the consequences of putting it in my mouth if they are wrong? It is SO severe that I have no interest in trying.


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## Tux's Mom (May 24, 2016)

Hope you have an Epipen close at hand! Testing an almond is nothing short of Russian Roulette. I wouldn't test anything on my dog either. My husband developed an allergy to Fire Ant stings after only two incidents of being bitten. The first time it itched for weeks. The second time, his face swelled to the size of a large pumpkin, turned beet red, and fortunately an emergency clinic was about a half mile away. They told us at the clinic that a few days before he experienced the dangers of fire ants, a tourist visiting from Germany happened to be standing at a stop light ACROSS the street from the clinic. (She was not on her way to the clinic). She got stung, and had she not been across the street, they said she would have died. It was that fast and that severe.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tux's Mom said:


> Hope you have an Epipen close at hand! Testing an almond is nothing short of Russian Roulette. I wouldn't test anything on my dog either. My husband developed an allergy to Fire Ant stings after only two incidents of being bitten. The first time it itched for weeks. The second time, his face swelled to the size of a large pumpkin, turned beet red, and fortunately an emergency clinic was about a half mile away. They told us at the clinic that a few days before he experienced the dangers of fire ants, a tourist visiting from Germany happened to be standing at a stop light ACROSS the street from the clinic. (She was not on her way to the clinic). She got stung, and had she not been across the street, they said she would have died. It was that fast and that severe.


Wow on the bee sting, and on your husband! And yes, I always have an epi-pen on hand.

Fortunately canine food "allergies" are usually different. They actually call them "sensitivities" rather than "allergies" because they don't, as a rule, lead to anaphylaxis. But they still aren't any fun!


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## Tux's Mom (May 24, 2016)

Good to know about dog's sensitivities versus anaphylactic reactions to food. 
My husband was bitten by a fire ant, not a bee sting. Fire ants look and act like a regular ant. They build nests in the ground. If you happen to step on a tiny mound in the ground that is their "front door", an alarm goes out and they all rush straight to the "intruder" with vicious voracity. 

As of 2011 in the United States they were found in most of the southern states: Alabama, Arkansas, Arizona, California, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina, New Mexico, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, and Virginia. Fire ants can be a menace to pet owners. These aggressive insects will attack even if a dog walks within a few feet of a fire ant nest, biting and stinging in defense and causing an intense burning, itching and swelling. In some cases it can cause infection or a potentially deadly reaction.

If these mounds are discovered in your yard, it is a good idea to have professionals treat for them.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Boy, I'm glad we don't have fire ants here! Sounds awful!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

__
https://73318219405%2Fquote-my-dog-has-a-chicken-allergy-which-means%23.W3xAyehKjIU


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

another article showing just how much we hype things https://thesciencedog.wordpress.com/2018/08/30/the-heart-of-the-matter/


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> __
> https://73318219405%2Fquote-my-dog-has-a-chicken-allergy-which-means%23.W3xAyehKjIU


Yep. Kodi is sensitive to duck, but not chicken or turkey. (probably not the less common bird proteins either, but we avoid those in case he needs them later in his life)


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

more regulatory bs The most recent FDA Betrayal ? Truth about Pet Food


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## ptgrin (Feb 17, 2018)

Has anyone given their Havi sardines? Are there brands that offer boneless? If not, do you have to remove the bones before they eat them? Thanks.


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

davetgabby said:


> another article showing just how much we hype things https://thesciencedog.wordpress.com/2018/08/30/the-heart-of-the-matter/


Excellent article. Thanks.


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## cishepard (Apr 8, 2018)

ptgrin said:


> Has anyone given their Havi sardines? Are there brands that offer boneless? If not, do you have to remove the bones before they eat them? Thanks.


My dogs get whole raw herring and sardines (I have access through my work to fingerling sized fish). I also give dehydrated raw sardines made by a local company for dogs. Yes, bones and all, but these are raw. I would not feed the bones of any cooked animal including canned fish.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Those of you who mentioned food sensitivity, how did you determine which foods were the problem?


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Those of you who mentioned food sensitivity, how did you determine which foods were the problem?


Well, when Willow has had chicken or turkey, she gets REALLY BAD DIARRHEA! AND i MEAH REALLY BAD!:surprise: That's how I was able to tell!:wink2:


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> Well, when Willow has had chicken or turkey, she gets REALLY BAD DIARRHEA! AND i MEAH REALLY BAD!:surprise: That's how I was able to tell!:wink2:


That does make it easier!

So was she on a different puppy food that made it really clear when you switched? Or did it develop over time? I thought most puppy foods are chicken based.

I'm asking because I bought an adult version of the same brand of food and the same protein base and I've been mixing it at a ratio of less than 1:8 cups for 2 weeks. I was going to increase it the second week but he was sick so I kept it the same, and I was pretty sure it wasn't related to the food because he was fine for at least 5 days with the shift, and he's been on this protein for 6 months. Now I'm second guessing. I'm going to double check the ingredient list. It's definitely grain free though.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Willow's prior owner told us about the chicken problem. Forgetting that, I purchased some treats that were chicken based. In the middle of that night after getting the treats the diarrhea started. Oh it was a mess! She was still having it a day later so we took her to the vet. He gave her fluids and sent us home with a couple of cans of food for dogs with sensitive tummies. Unfortunately, that food was turkey based! After the diarrhea seem to increase, I took her off the food from the vet and the diarrhea cleared right up. Not all dogs are sensitive to chicken or turkey, but I sure don't want to test the waters again with Willow!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

more http://truthaboutpetfood.com/investigating-the-grain-free-link-to-heart-disease-with-blinders-on/


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

more https://healthypets.mercola.com/sit...20180919Z1_B&et_cid=DM239786&et_rid=423342879


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

I just want to ad to this thread that one of the reputable breeders in the Southern Magnolia Havanese breeders club sold a puppy last week to a woman whose parent is a canine cardiologist (those are rare) and her word is to take this information seriously in regards to small breeds as well. 

I feed Merrick kibble with the raw bits and found chick peas and potatoes in the first five ingredients, so it is time for a new food in this doggie household. 

Hmm, just how many times removed was my two cents from the original source (canine cardiologist)? Four times?


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

I just wonder if the way to go isn't to change an otherwise high quality food, but to supplement with taurine instead? Going all freeze dried or frozen raw might not work for most people (cost, convenience, etc.), and I haven't found any of the high quality kibbles that don't have one or more of those things in the top 5.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

more

__
https://179049849051%2Fcanine-heart-disease%23.W8TAs2hKjIU


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

secondary issue https://truthaboutpetfood.com/new-mycotoxin-study-of-grain-free-and-grain-included-dog-foods/


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

I have noticed most kibble contain some kind of liver. There are so many liver treats in pet stores. I avoid pet food that has liver added. All I can think of is the liver filtering blood and chemicals. It doesn't seem like a good thing for us or our dogs to eat. 
I remember my mom cooking my dad liver, bacon and onions because he like it. 🤮


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Heather's said:


> I have noticed most kibble contain some kind of liver. There are so many liver treats in pet stores. I avoid pet food that has liver added. All I can think of is the liver filtering blood and chemicals. It doesn't seem like a good thing for us or our dogs to eat.
> I remember my mom cooking my dad liver, bacon and onions because he like it. &#129326;


I feed homemade raw and I must include organ meats in my dogs diet because that is where a lot of their vitamins come from. I assume kibble has supplemental vitamins added to take care of this. However, I must include them in the proper portion. For example, liver is very high in vitamin A and too much can cause issues. I also try to source my organ meats from local pasture raised animals vs. factory farmed to avoid the chemicals you mention. I think liver is very nutritious for people too. Traditionally people ate all parts of an animal...things we now consider yucky but which are very nutrient dense. However, back then they did not have factory farms.

I also was wondering how safe it is to feed liver treats. I avoid them for fear of overdosing my dogs on vitamin A because I include liver in my dogs diet. But I wonder if too much would also be bad for dogs on commercial diets.


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## cishepard (Apr 8, 2018)

The liver does not store toxins or waste products - it filters and then excretes them.

"When the liver has broken down harmful substances, its by-products are excreted into the bile or blood. Bile by-products enter the intestine and leave the body in the form of feces. Blood by-products are filtered out by the kidneys, and leave the body in the form of urine."

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/liver-anatomy-and-functions

So the liver itself is safe for both humans and dogs, and a very important part of a raw diet.

Mudpuppy, I feed fresh liver in my dogs meals, as well as for treats, but I chop up a bunch of dried single ingredient items (lung, tripe bits, dried salmon, this that and the other) as well into a big bowl and give treats out of that, so the extra liver is just a fraction really, and I don't worry about over doing it.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

cishepard - Thank you for the information on liver and for sharing how you feed raw. I always enjoy hearing what other raw feeders do.

I feed 5 percent liver and 5 percent other organ (kidney, spleen, pancreas, etc.) as semi-frozen treats at the end of their meal. I cut up the organs into small pieces, lay them in a dish and freeze them. After eating their meal, they do tricks for me and get their treats. They love their organs but prefer them frozen vs. the squishy texture they have when thawed. As far as other treats, I usually just cut up meat into small pieces and freeze it. Depending on what I need the treats for I also use freeze dried salmon.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

cishepard said:


> The liver does not store toxins or waste products - it filters and then excretes them.
> 
> "When the liver has broken down harmful substances, its by-products are excreted into the bile or blood. Bile by-products enter the intestine and leave the body in the form of feces. Blood by-products are filtered out by the kidneys, and leave the body in the form of urine."
> 
> ...


I agree liver has lot's of vitamins, iron and is nutritious. It's just the thinking about all the harmful chemicals and substances that pass through and are filtered out. My childhood cat was only fed cut up raw kidneys for 18 years and was very healthy. &#129314; I can't think of feeding raw since I don't eat meat. I always add a little chicken, roast beef or turkey breast daily to meals, but it is already cooked. :grin2:


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