# Would you pass on a free Havanese?



## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

Ok, this is like 6 degrees of Havanese....well actually only 4.

My cousin, has a friend that is taking care of a havanese for a friend (the owner). The owner of it just had a baby and can't keep up with a puppy and a baby and is going back to work full time. So her friend offered to take it for awhile. He would love to keep it but works long hours and isn't home much. - My cousin was asked if she wanted it as her dog passed away a couple years ago, but she doesn't want to go through the puppy thing again and she has a full time job and is a single mother. So her time is precious to her and wouldn't feel taking the dog to be in its best interest. 

At christmas time, I was talking to her about the Havanese and how I was interested in the breed. She remembered that conversation and got a hold of me.

Not knowing much about the puppy other wise it was born in the fall...like Sep or October of 2007. It is in great health and has been kept up with all its vet wellness visits and vaccines to date. I don't think it is spayed yet. She was pretty sure that she didn't pay what the 'going rate' is for the Havanese from a reputable breeder, so probably a breeder that does no health testing.

If they can't find a home, they will be giving it to the shelter in their area.

Is it worth it to rescue this puppy from going from home to home just to end up in a shelter. Although I am sure it would be adopted quickly.

Would you pass on a puppy like this? Torn in my decision as the timing isn't perfect for us right now. But I am home most of the day (stay at home mom), just trying to get somethings done around the house. Nothing hazardous or dangerous, just cleaning out basement, closests, etc. for a rummage sale in May. then after that...pretty free for the rest of the year.

Plus we have a 16 year old dog that is ailing and having accidents in her gated area. 16 year old in on linoleum so it is quickly cleaned up and sanitized. I wouldn't want the 'new puppy' to get confused of the scents in the house that it is ok to go potty in the house.

Outside, not a problem, I can put up an expen for a potty area until we get a fenced in run put up. 

** My senior dog has started defecating in her pillow this past week and has been pooping on our driveway and sidewalks. She has only gone in the grass up until this past fall. Now...when she has to go...she just goes wherever she is at that moment. She seems 'lost' and like she has forgotten all of her training. ** Vet said there was no medical problems for her defecating. Just old age. THough she does have other health problems non-related.

Oh, soooo confused. I just don't want the excitement of a puppy to overshadow some of the other things that it will come home to.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Oh Dear Kristy, this is a tough one. I am sure others on here with experience with aging dogs can help you more than me-- I just wanted to offer you my support and say that my emotions kept changing as I read your post--- first it was yes, take the pup, then not so sure, yes again, and then not sure again. I feel your dilemma.


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

I think you have to look at your life and decide if the time is right. I would like to suggest that they not give it to a shelter. Tell them to go to www.havaneserescue.com and contact them regarding surrendering the puppy. It will be put into a loving foster home and will find a perfect furever family. I don't evny you having to make a decision. You knew what your time frames were and then this pops up.


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## casperkeep (May 16, 2007)

I think that it is a really hard decission to make. You know what your life is like right now....how would feel having a pup and an older dog failing at the same time...it would be hard on me I know....it would be bitter sweet. I am sure you will get better advice from other's here. Please keep us posted will be thinking about you


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## Elaine (Jan 17, 2007)

This puppy sounds like it is 5 or 6 months old by now. Havanese adapt to new situations very quickly as long as they have not been abused. No matter what your decision is the dog should never be sent to the pound but the person should get a hold of the breeder first and then Havanese rescue. Did they get any papers with the dog when the original owner got it? If you can find out any information we can help you, hopefully, find out the linage and maybe some health history on the puppy. At this point it sounds like your older dog is deteriorating (? sp.) pretty quickly. The puppy would have to be kept away from your dog as all it will want to do is play and really would not mean to do any harm. Why don't you let your friend or cousin know that you would like to try the puppy out for a couple of weeks on a trial basis to see if it would fit in. I do have to warn you that once you bring a Havanese into your home things are never the same and unfortunately it is very hard to give back. You need to remember that it will be like bringing a toddler into your home and they have a habit of training you very quickly so you need to have the upper hand. What is cute at first becomes even cuter later and it is hard to get them back under control. Good luck with your decision and remember there are several of us on the list that can help you with a linage search if you can find out any information. Some dogs that get lost in the system, back yard breeders, we have a harder time with. Breeder, parents registered names, AKC or not, these would all help. Hopefully it was not from a broker that got the dogs from Europe.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

I don't know, Kristy. I think you should take on the puppy and definitely keep her completely away from your older dog. If you will allow me to be frank, I know you posted about your older dog earlier, and I know how hard this decision is, but at this point is she really enjoying her life anymore? We had a cat once that lived to be 17 years and by the end he just had so many problems that we just had to let him go. He wasn't enjoying life at all any more and it just made us sad. I would never presume to tell you what to do, just giving you my honest opinion.

Whatever you do decide, please keep us updated! And if you don't decide to take the puppy, I would also agree that you ask the owners to turn her over to Havanese Rescue instead of a pound. Good luck in making this tough decision! :hug:


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

I would take this pup in a NY minute. If you aren't interested in showing/breeding, then take the chance before it goes to a shelter. If it has been taken care of the way you say, then it should be OK. You can always take it to your vet for a complete check-up and ask questions.

If you are still not sure, *please* tell her about Havanese Rescue and not to bring it to a shelter. I wish I could take it, but it's not a good time for me.


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## DAJsMom (Oct 27, 2006)

Maybe there is someone who can foster this puppy for a while in a good home until you are able to take it?


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## casperkeep (May 16, 2007)

I would take her as well but then again i am getting my second next weekend so i think i will have my hands full....just make sure she does not go to the shelter!!!


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Could you meet the dog and really find out what type of personality it has? What training issues it is going to come with? This is what I would do for any adoption situation if possible. Be objective and don't fall in love. Really think if you can offer the best home.

Amanda


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Personally, I would probably take the dog. Then again, I'm known for getting in over my head (and usually manage quite well) lol But, I would probably view it as a 'sign' and 'meant for me'...the way you were looking for a Hav and then one practically lands on your doorstep?

Yes, it would mean more work, but nothing worthwhile is ever easy.

Good luck with your decision!

Kara


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## Moko (Dec 11, 2007)

irnfit said:


> I would take this pup in a NY minute. If you aren't interested in showing/breeding, then take the chance before it goes to a shelter. If it has been taken care of the way you say, then it should be OK. You can always take it to your vet for a complete check-up and ask questions.
> 
> If you are still not sure, *please* tell her about Havanese Rescue and not to bring it to a shelter. I wish I could take it, but it's not a good time for me.


Michelle--

And I'd take it in a NEW JERSEY minute! Gosh! I wish I were closer! After having Billy around so much of the time, I don't think my hub would hesitate for even a NEW YORK minute!

I say Go for it!


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

I don't envy your choice Kristy. Whatever happens, PLEASE encourage your friend NOT to place the dog in a shelter. There are a lot of folks in Havanese Rescue who can offer foster homes. 
Your older dog's needs have to be paramount, I think. She's given you 16 years and now she is suffering the ailments of age and you know you will be dealing with her eventual demise, as awfully sad as that is. Perhaps her time has come, even. What is her quality of life and is it a life of dignity? 
Can you deal with a young dog at the same time that you are facing the loss of your older girl? If you feel you can, go for it. It might help heal your heart and help you move past the loss. If not, I know rescue could find the Hav a terrific forever home.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

> nothing worthwhile is ever easy


Well said, Kara.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

Lina said:


> If you will allow me to be frank, I know you posted about your older dog earlier, and I know how hard this decision is, but at this point is she really enjoying her life anymore? We had a cat once that lived to be 17 years and by the end he just had so many problems that we just had to let him go. He wasn't enjoying life at all any more and it just made us sad. I would never presume to tell you what to do, just giving you my honest opinion.


Lina,

It has been an issue I think about all day. She has been excluded from the family because she has to be penned up. I won't have poop accidents all over my house/carpets. She cries to and whines to come out when we are not in sight. She isn't herself anymore. That is for sure. And when we are out of sight or gone from the house. The whole time...she paces. never lays down...just walks in circles. So if she poops...she walks through it over and over again and it a mess I come home to everytime. It is getting very hard on us to enjoy her anymore...sounds bad, I know.

Here is something my husband has stated....he doesn't want to put her down, he hates the thought....but this part is what gets to me....he says can we at least wait until spring and the ground thaws. Like another month or two. We still have about 10" of frost in our ground and what would we do with her body until then? So sorry for the morbidity of this. He basically states: " is it ok for us just to keep her around til the ground thaws? "

How twisted are we? Oh man... this is tough.


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## casperkeep (May 16, 2007)

I feel your pain trust me....I do not want to put my babies down but I also do not want them suffering. We had to put our family sheltie asleep in late April...the ground was still hard but my dad just dug enough for her.....I really do not know what to say...just feel really bad!!! But I would I read into the havanese coming into your life as a sign...but that is just me!!


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Kristy, I can definitely understand your dilemma and what you must be feeling right now. Sadly, I really don't think your dog is at all happy with her life from what you describe. I know that letting her go right now might be hard on you due to the frost, but is it really fair to keep her around because it might be inconvenient to you? Is there any chance you can have her cremated instead? I'm not sure of the costs of that, but it does seem like an option. You can then scatter her ashes or keep them, whatever you prefer.

I do hope your decision, whatever it might be, will make you feel some relief as I'm sure it must be hard to just be in this state of limbo all the time. I really do feel for you. :hug:


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Kristy,
You can have her cremated and her remains returned to you in a container of your choice. I know in my town we cannot bury animals on our property anyway, nor would I choose to do that. What if I moved. They'd be left behind! 
We have six small, beautiful, sealed wooden boxes containing the remains of the beloved pets we've had during our marriage. I know it sounds really weird but when those little boxes came back to us it was actually a comforting feeling. Those we could bury in the yard but we haven't because we may move someday.

This is where we take our pets when they have passed, not for burial but for cremation. http://www.bubbling-well.com/

It's not morbid. Often euthanasia is the kindest thing you can do.


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Kristy, have you had the opportunity to talk to your vet about your senior? The older ones can be really good at helping you manage end of life issues. It's really hard when they lose bowel control - you aren't a bad person to think about waiting until you can bury at home. I ended up having mine cremated and bought a dogwood tree and buried all their ashes there. Every spring I get these beautiful white flowers that remind me of everyone. I also hung their tags on a branch. Best luck and here's a cyber hug for you!:hug:


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## Lily's Momma (Jan 16, 2007)

If she can't find a home she should contact the breeder that the puppy was purchased from. I am not sure if it's standard but my purchase contract states that if for any reason I can not keep my dogs, I must return them to the breeder for placement. She will keep the dog as long as it takes to place them into a good home. Like I said I'm not sure if this is standard but it keeps them out of shelters and rescue.


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## Elaine (Jan 17, 2007)

These are the hard decisions in life. Our pets give so much of themselves to us until there is nothing more they can do. It is never a good time to make a decision of this kind but your husbands comment is a little hard. We can't keep our animals suffering just for our convience. Have your girl cremated and save her or bury her in the spring when the flowers are blooming and the grass is beautiful and green. It is hard to let our loved ones go no matter if they are two or four legged. Life is full of hard decisions and if your girl is in pain, has become an outcast because of control issues you need to make a choice for her sake. I cleaned up after my last Pom for months before I finally let her go and my husbands lab I kept on prednasone because he couldn't let her go, even though I had to help her walk just to go potty and hold her up. I finally had to make the choice and it still hurts but they could not make the choice for me. It is so much easier when they pass on their own because it is out of our hands but that does not always happen. Good luck and know that we all feel your pain in what you and your family is going through.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Kristy,

I too would take the puppy in a New York minute. I don't envy your current situation but I have a problem putting a dog down if its not in terrible pain with no hope. I sort of use the same guidelines I would for any other treasured family member. I can't play God and have lived through some really tough times because of it. I'm not judging anyone else's decision, but for me the decision part would be easy. 

I know nothing about your potential puppy, but I would take it in a nanosecond, but then again, my dearest friend has called me the Mother Theresa of the canine set. I would also take it as a sign that this dog was meant for me. Good luck, whatever you decide.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Kristy, I just wanted to offer a :hug:


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

Yes, we would like to bury her. We run a large family farm and will not be moving...probably ever. Our Maggie, our first to pass away since being married is buried down in our back field next to our creek last summer. It is a pretty spot. No animals/livestock in that area and no buildings allowed in that area. They will be safe there and not have to be disturbed.

Cremation may be an option. We have a tree that died and my husband wants to plant a new one this summer after we remove it. That may be somewhere to put her ashes if we go that route.

I know this is our decision and I appreciate everyones support.


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## SnobunnieNY (Oct 24, 2007)

I just wanted to offer my support to you also. Before we got our lovely new boy "Boo" we were faced wtih a similar situation with our Goldenboy "Jake". He was not in pain physically, but the mental pain was obvious. He was as you have said - removed from our daily life because of incontinence and when he was with us it was a constant struggle as he had no control. My very wise neighbor said to me one day and I will never forget it - He gave you the best he could for 15 years, now give him the best you can as a owner. (Im gathering tears as I type this) For us is was obvious that Jake had lost his dignity and was ashamed of something he could not control. That broke our hearts. I know that he is restored in heaven and is happy and healthy. Boo did not replace Jake, but a reminder that our lives are fuller because of the furry friends we have to share it with. This new guy could be a blessing in disguise....


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

It is heartbreaking, because when I look at her...she looks so sad.

I may have a tough road ahead of me no matter which route I take....


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

Yes, beside severe arthritis, which she is on some meds for. She doesn't like to be picked up. She even has nipped at me as if in pain. So we have to be very careful and we now have a technique down when she knows she is going to be picked up.

She is going blind and almost deaf as well. Her old age seems to have crept up on her fast this past year and seems to have speedballed since our Maggie passed. Maggie loved to play and would teese her to do so and she would...since her passing this past August, it seems as if our senior, Miranda, kind of "gave up" and went downhill fast.

Thanks for the support. It is hard to read some of them as they are hitting so close to home for me. ...gotta run and get some kleenex.


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## casperkeep (May 16, 2007)

I just wanted to give to tell you that we are all here for you...whatever decision your family makes....it is very hard to read these post because I think of my dogs...all four of them and know in time I will be in your shoes......prayers go out to you for peace and comfort!!:hug:


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Oh Kristy,

I just want to give you a big hug. :hug: I know how hard your decision is as I had lost two dogs and two cats in the last four years and twice I had to make the very painful decision....sigh. It sounds to me like your old dog doesn't have much quality of life anymore and it might be much kinder to put her down. I had my animals cremated and the ashes of my dogs scattered in their favorite place in the world - Fort Funston, wherer they loved to play. Maybe you can have your dog cremated and then bury her ashes in the spring.

As far as the puppy, I would also take him in a minute. :biggrin1:


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Oh Kristy- I had to check back. I am so glad there are so many who have experiences they could share with you. I am in tears reading this and can't imagine my boys having to be put down (they are 1 and 2) I think maybe this little 4 degrees of separation is a sign for you. Hugs to you and very gentle belly rub to Miranda.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

Tears streaming now...I called the vet to ask about information on euthinizing. I tried not to talk a lot...I would have started bawling.

They don't offer cremation on the premises...but do send them out to be done and then returned. The prices is not much for her size...only $94 to be returned to us. I thought it would be a huge amount.

My husband is such a money hog....I know what he would say...to wait until spring....I would love to wait and not do it at all and let natures aging take her when she is ready.... But I am the one cleaning up all the messes and dealing with her whining and crying and it breaks my heart.

I am to the point of rigging something up in the garage where she would stay and if she want to go out...she can go through the dog door we have out there. Shoving her outside to be alone is not something I want to do or something she deserves. 

I think I know my answer, now it is just a matter of making an appointment. Yet, I would love to have her go on her own. It is so hard taking someones life, even though she truly isn't living it anymore.

SObbing now....


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## suzyfrtz (Nov 12, 2007)

Kristy, 

I am with you in your sorrow. We had to put our Beau to sleep last spring. He was very ill, and he seemed to look up at me and say, Please help me. The tragedy is that our beloved pets have such a shorter life span, but we cannot compare their life spans to our human ones. An old dog has simply lived out his or her life even though their years with us are few by comparison. I think it is a blessing and humane to let them go to sleep in our arms with a vet's assistance, rather than to keep them suffering which they don't understand. I wish the best for you all.

Suzy


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Oh Kristy, my throat is all tied up. But I think you're on your way to make the right decision for you. Apparently your husband isn't dealing with all the heartbreaking things that seem to be going on every day and that's why he sees it differently. This is a very tough decision to make, either way. As a doctor I'm glad we have at least the opportunity to let suffering animals go. Wishing you strength and all the best!

As for the puppy, I too would think 'it's a sign', but I'm not in your shoes and don't know what you can/want to handle right now.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

:hug:Kristy:hug:
Hugs to you as you make these hard choices.....I think you know in your heart,if this is a pup for you and how to deal with your aging pet.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

:hug::hug::hug::grouphug:


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Kristy, I am so sorry. We're here for you, whatever you decide on. :grouphug:


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Kristy, My heart hurts for you. 
It is never easy to make such a decision. I've been where you are now. Do what's best for your girl. She's suffering and so are you. Let her final hours and moments be WTIH you. You'll feel better knowing that she feels your arms around her and your voice in her ear as she goes instead of being alone in a pen in the middle of the night in your garage. :grouphug: :hug:


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Just know we are all here for you. One thing you might do is talk with her - I've done that with mine and told them it was okay to go now that I'd be fine and that they were what was important now. They understand a lot more than we give them credit for. Hugs again to you.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

For those wondering, that picture in my avatar is Miranda. The picture was taken in Sep. 2007. She is a cutey.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Kristy, you read my mind. She sure is a cutey. My heart is breaking for you.


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

Kristy, I know you and I have "talked" before about my dane and your Miranda. I so feel for you. My DH totally left the decision up to me, even though I desperately wanted someone else to decide for me, as Otto was primarily my dog.

I was just talking to someone today about putting him down. The hardest decision was walking into the vet and making the appointment. I couldn't call, I just had to see my vet's assistant face to face. I knew she would be supportive of my decision. Otto had the same issues-severe arthritis and total loss of bowel control. 

The night before we took him in, I played with Otto in the snow and gave him treats and love and thought "How can I know if I'm doing the right thing?" He still had so much of his personality shining through. I asked my husband this same question. Literally seconds later he defecated all over his bed. To me that was a sign.

I agree with the others on the forum that the Havanese is finding you! I think they are angels in disguise.

Posh found us EXACTLY when we needed her, she was about 6 months at that time and again it was one of those unexpected moments that you never forget.

Good luck! Hug hug hug.


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

One more thing. Otto died so peacefully and beautifully. I knew it was the absolute best thing I could have done for him. I cried my eyes out, but it when his spirit left his body it was as though he was free and my heart filled with peace and joy. There are absolutely no regrets, as I feel I honored him and his life.


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## casperkeep (May 16, 2007)

It will be three years on the 25 that we put our family sheltie down. I was talking to my mom on the phone earlier sharing your story and it was hard for her but she knew we had to do it.... We got Briar when I was in Jr.High...we had her a long time. She was a great girl. My mom had callled me cryin b/c she knew the time had come. So my husband,sister and her husband,and my grandparents all came over to say our good-byes....crying now....she would not leave her blanket and when I showed up she came to greet me. It was like she was young again.....my mom lost it....but she was with her "pack". My sister drove them there and she said that it was really hard. It is really hard but we all have to be there for the good and bad times....I wish I lived by you....I would love to give you a hug and a belly rub to little Miranda!!! Please know that you are not alone!!!!


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## HayCarambaMama (Dec 8, 2007)

I feel that sometimes even though we have a "perfect plan" in our well-thought out mind, life presents us with a MORE perfect plan (we just don't know it yet).
Example: I wanted a girl after having three boys, but I wanted to wait and get pregnant at the "perfect time." I got pregnant much earlier than I thought! Oooops! But, guess what? It was a girl! Life had a MORE perfect plan! 
Good luck! You are in my thoughts and prayers.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Kristy I cried reading this whole thread, my heart goes out to you. I know you will make the right decision that is best for you and your girl.


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## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

Kristie--my heart goes out to you. My Gizmo was put down a little over a year ago at the age of 16. We had a rough last few months. I kept asking the vet "when?" He said "I would know!" And I did!! 

There are those who say that this Hav puppy is your angel and I have to agree, in a way. Although I never would have brought a puppy into the end of Gizmo's life, we got Brutus just 2 1/2 weeks after Gizmo's passing and he was so therapeutic in our greiving process. He healed our hearts. 

This is such a family decision for you. Follow your heart. We are here for you and offering ((((HUGS))))!


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

Kristy,

I went through something similar last year, and was the one who had to make the final decision, and I understand your pain. Everyone has given you great advice. You'll know when the time is right. One other suggestion is to have a "paw print" made. A friend suggested it when Gabby died - she told me it might be hard to look at it for a while but that later in the process I would be glad I had the reminder, and she was right. Gabby had one white paw that they did the impression of. You can do it yourself - they sell sets for doing a plaster caste of a handprint, etc. at most arts & craft stores; or frequently your vet or the crematorium (if you decide to go that way) can do it for you. 

In terms of the puppy, that's such a personal decision - some people want another dog immediately, others need to wait a while. Just do what's right for you - if it feels right to take this puppy - go for it. If not, there will be other opportunities in the future.

Good Luck and Know That We're All Here For You!

Jill


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Kristy, I only now got the chance to see this and am so sorry for all you are going through. I can't add anything to what everyone has said, but do send along (((hugs))) and am keeping you in my thoughts and prayers.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2008)

I don't know why this is so hard. I should just know right? 

I got down on my knee a little while ago and I looked into her eyes talked to her and she stared at me and just turned away. Like she didn't know who I was or that I was even talking to her. But yesterday she couldn't get enough head rubs and ear scratches. Day before..she just looked like she was lost in maze pacing around and around for hours.

I had to put my horse down some years back. But that was more obvious. I knew he was ailing and one morning, I went out to our pasture and my sisters horse was going crazy..whinying and jumping around. I got over there and I couldn't get him up...I tried my best...everything to get him excited to get up..and man...did he try...over and over again for me to get up. It is amazing what some animals will try to do for their owners. He knew I wanted him to get up so badly. Seemed like when I cried...he tried even harder...until he couldn't try anymore..just layed their in exhaustion. So a call was made and the vet came out within an hour. I sat their the whole time with him...my sisters horse still sniffing him and nudging him to get up. But OMG when the vet arrived and went by my JD (JACK DANIELS was his full name) my sisters horse when nuts...he did not want the vet near JD and we had to halter him and hold him away. It was like he new what was going to happen. So that afternoon was long..I spent hours out there crying and rubbing JD, talking to him after he was gone. Due to his size of course, we had to call a rendering company...they were to come the next day. My sisters horse never left his side the rest of the afternoon, that evening, the whole night he layed beside him and even rested his head over my JD's neck. It was so sad. Can't stop crying now....just typing this hits so many memories. The next day we corraled my sisters horse when the rend comp. came and took my JD away. My sisters horse ran along side of the truck in the pasture as it left and he jumped and whinied in the far corner as they drove away. It was so hard for me and to see him (DS horse) seem so sad for weeks. He was an only horse then until my sister moved him closer to her home to a boarding stable so he wouldn't be alone.

Sorry to go off topic here, but is so hard to think about going through this again...even though she, My dog Miranda, is still mobile...but slowly 'dying'.


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## Gracie's Mom (Sep 7, 2007)

Kristy - It makes me sad just reading your story. I'm so sorry you have to go through this. It is always hard to "decide the fate" of a pet. Your story of JD is so touching. It just goes to show you that they have a special place in your heart!! I had to do it once. I know this is a struggle and I pray you may find the right decision for you. I know you are going through some tough times.

Karen


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## havanesebyha (Apr 25, 2007)

Kristy my heart is breaking for you. I know you will do what you think is best, but I think it all brings back sad memories for all of us losing a family member. Hugs to you Kristy.


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## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

I often wish we could offer our people relatives the same gift that we can offer our pets.


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## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

My heart goes out to you Kristy, it is the hardest decision that we have to make for our beloved pets. :grouphug:


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## CinnCinn (Mar 30, 2007)

The pain is so deep. The attachement to our animals is unique. We had a very difficult 2006. We lost 1 dog, 2 cats and my daughters horse. It's like we found them all at the same time as young pets and they aged together all getting old at the same time. Fortuately, our 2 cats passed on their own. But Peanut & Rickie....can't even say it.
I was so proud of my daughter. She was 18 at the time and was so strong. I cried until I was almost sick, and she stood strong and held her horse until he was gone. I have tears in my eyes typing this. The pain is so real.

Kristy - all I can offer you is my prayers and support.


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## casperkeep (May 16, 2007)

Cheryl....that is what my husband said tonight at dinner...we were talking about this and thought that sometimes it would be nice.....until the time came then I think it would be not as easy. He is not a cruel person....he is very sweet.


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## casperkeep (May 16, 2007)

What a group we have here......I am sooo thankful for this forum....it really helps to know that there are so many caring people in this world...when you read the news and hear all the bad things. Thank you to all!!!!!!
Hugs to you Kristy...hope you get some much needed rest!!!


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## JanB (Oct 26, 2007)

Kristy, We just put down our 15 yr old Sheltie last October. It was the most difficult thing I have ever had to do. But it was the last gift we could give her after all the love, joy, and devotion she gave to us for all those years.

I'm crying as I write this. Yet I know we did the right thing. Rarely is doing the right thing easy. We were lucky that our vet was kind and sensitive. My DH and I held her in our arms and we stroked her while telling her what a wonderful dog she was and how much we loved her as she peacefully left this earth. I told my DH for years that I wouldn't be able to do it when the time came. But when the time did come how could I abandon her? I am so happy she was surrounded by us, the people she loved, as she left us. It was truly a beautiful death. We had her cremated and her cremains are in a lovely redwood box on a shelf next to her picture.

It is painful. Dog's lives are so short but the love they give is so great. I am so sorry :hug:

One other thing. I would never have brought a new puppy into our home during Sophie's last years. She was old, deaf, arthritic, and tired. Subjecting her to a rambunctious puppy would have been cruel.

However, I needed a new puppy fairly soon after her death. Tessa has brought us such joy. Our house was just way too empty. I feel as if it honored Sophie's memory that we wanted another dog in our family.

You said "I don't know why this is so hard. I should just know right?" It's hard because your head and your heart are telling you two different things. It is never easy to see our pets suffer. Saying good-bye is hard.

You will be in my thoughts and prayers as you travel this painful road.


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Oh Kristy,

The story about your horse has me in tears. It should come with a kleenex a must disclaimer.


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Kristy~ The tears are streaming down my face as I've read through this thread. I know _exactly_ what you're going through. We faced the very same circumstances and decisions with our 17 yr. old cocker mix. My thoughts and prayers are with you as you face these difficult days. :hug:


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

:hug: thinking of you and Miranda.


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

These are difficult decisions that you are faced with right now .
We open our hearts and our homes to these wonderful creatures and they enrich our lives so much .. 
Inevitably in our heart of hearts - we know that they will probably leave this world before us .. I had to deal with the death of my first pet when I was eleven years old .. It was heart wrenching then and in the past 5 years I have lost two amazing dogs and even though I am older and supposedly more mature it certainly did not get any easier .. 
Take care . You will know when it is time ..


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## MaddiesMom (Apr 1, 2007)

Kristy- I'm so sad to read about you going through this difficult decision. I had to make the same decision with my last Havanese, and my vet was a great help. She reminded me that you never want your dog to suffer, nor do you ever want things to go on so long that you end up resenting your pet. Of course, I never would have resented her in a million years since she was so sick, but I certainly never wanted her to suffer. She told me with her pleading eyes that it was time. Hugs to you during this difficult time. :hug:


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2008)

Well, the signs are coming to show me what I don't want to have done. Today I was spending a lot of time with Miranda and she looks like she is ready. She is being very 'tipsy' and tripping over her feet. She seems to lag on the back end and her legs are wobbling if standing. She also seems to lean her body to the side. She almost feel over a couple time outside today. Not sure if it was the wind or not that gave her the final push to loose her balance, but she caught herself. She has an incontenience problem and her body is failing....

Here is a question....we have a farm vet that could help put her at rest. I would love to be able to do this at home. Does anyone know if I get her put to sleep at my home....can I take her to the vet 'after the fact' for them to get her cremated? I am not sure which route I want to go. It may be easier for me to do it at home and take her to the vet when ready to let her go....or it may be easier to take her to the vet and have her put to sleep there and just leave without her. I am so confused and emotional and I have such a headache from thinking about all of this.


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Kristy - the answer is yes to both your questions. It's wonderful if you could have a vet come to your home - I know many that do. And yes, after Miranda goes, you can bring her body to the vet to have her cremated. I did and then they call you when the ashes are ready. Or you can choose to have them dispose of the remains. I've had to do it both ways, and I do prefer being able to take them alive to the vets. It's pretty heartbreaking to have to bring in your dog that's died. I'm so sorry that it's her time. Give her a big hug from all your forum friends.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2008)

Thanks Lisa.

I am gathering information at this point. I still don't know if I can make that call. It always seems like there is another day....like I can wait.

I am grilling her a steak on the grill right now...I don't know if it is kind of like I determined this to be her 'last supper' or not....it is confusing. My heart is telling me to wait...I don't have the guts yet to make the call, but my head is like 'help her'.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Oh Kristy!!!! My heart is breaking for you. Sending you thoughts of courage and peace! Hugs!!!


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

Oh Kristy,

I'm so sorry for you. Words don't express how heartbroken I'm sure you are right now. I'll be sending you lots of positive energy. My vet didn't do the cremation. Gabby died at the vets and they then gave me the name of a crematorium. Everyone was very nice and understanding. The crematorium picked Gabby up at the vets office (it was an emergency vet, not my normal vet) and then delivered her remains to my home. 

I just went back and re-read through this thread. You said something about thinking this should be an easy decision? THERE ISN'T ANYTHING EASY ABOUT THIS. This is a loving heart that you've given your heart to. In addition, it's bringing up all the past losses. I not sure the heart knows the difference between such losses - grief is grief. Don't beat yourself up about struggling with this decision. It just shows how important Miranda has been to you and how much you've loved her.

Just know that Miranda will love you for taking such good care of her. 

Jill


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## Jacklyn Weeks (Dec 23, 2007)

Kristy, my heart goes out to you and I am crying for you while typing this. 3 years ago we had to put our lab down whom we loved and adored. She was cremented and we spread her ashes across the fields and streams she spent so much of her life romping through. I think it was the right decision but an incredibly hard one to make at the same time. My prayers and heart go out to you and your family during this rough time.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

You really have to check with your vet to find out. My 17 yr old German Shep went for a walk, came inside and keeled over. We knew we were going to be be making that call in a day or two, but thankfully we didn't have to. We drove him to our vets office and they took care of the cremation.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

This is SO sad, I just read through the whole thread and my last post was more focused on getting a pup than your poor older dog. Can you use diapers until you make the decision? I know that isn't much easier..but what a difficult decision you have to make. I can't imagine having to make this decision with Gucci, 

Hugs,
Kara


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## trueblue (Jan 22, 2008)

Kristy, I've been following this thread for a couple of days now, and didn't post because I just didn't know what to write. Losing a pet is hard, no matter how they go. But I'll tell you what happened to me. My 11 year old Golden died while I was on vacation, and he was being boarded at a local vet. That was probably one of the hardest things I've ever had to deal with....I just kept thinking that Cayenne died all alone (according to the vet, he passed away overnight), and was scared and confused, and I would have given anything to be there with him. I know it's not an easy decision, but if I had to choose between making the decision to put him down because his quality of life was deteriorated or letting him die alone, I'd put him down. At least you can be there with him to comfort him in his final moments. We did have him cremated and have his remains here at home in a wooden box with his picture and leash sitting on top.

As far a new dog, I couldn't BEAR to go home to an empty house after that. We got home from vacation on a Tuesday, and I brought Piment home on Wednesday.

Whatever the right thing to do is, you'll know it in your heart.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Kristy, this is so sad and such a difficult time for you. I dont' even want to think about what will happen when it's our time to deal with this.

I feel for you, hon. Please know we are here and will lend as big a support as we can. (((hugs)))


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2008)

Well, just keeping eveyone updated. I still have Miranda, I can't do it...not yet anyways. I just need to wait for that 'yep, it is time sign' with no questions about it...though I can tell each day it is taking its toll on her. So I may have to do this sooner than I want to. Her time is coming, it would be great if it happened on her own so I don't have to do it. Time will tell I guess.

If all goes as planned we are going to meet the pup on Sunday. So we may or may not have a new addition Sunday Night.

I went to the pet store and bought 2 ex-pens, collar, toys, etc...just in case I can't resist to bring it home with our family :biggrin1:

If we decide not to bring it home with us...at least I have the stuff for next opportunity and I am prepared. I didn't buy any dog food yet....I want to find out what she is on first and depending on how good it is...either keep her on it or buy a small bag of Fromm's or something on Monday to see if she transitions well. I will trans. slowly over a week or so. Unless they don't give me any food. 

Miranda will eat any dry food...so I buy 15 lb bags. I would hate to buy a big bag and find out it doesn't agree with her.

So, If we do bring her home on Sunday...I would have to run first thing in the morning to get food for her...any suggestions to start her out with? She is a little over 5 months old.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

:whoo: I'm glad you've opened your heart up to the possibility of a new hav pup! I'm thrilled for you.:hug:

Sounds like you have it all covered.....


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Kristy - thanks for keeping us updated on Miranda. Take your time, you'll know. I had to go twice for my Keeshond who was dying of a brain tumor. Just couldn't follow through as it seemed like she had a bit of life left in her.

How exciting about the possible puppy - why not call the owner/breeder and find out what food it has been eating and also ask them to give you a week's supply if you do bring it home?


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2008)

Lisa, DUh me! I never thought of that. I will see if my cousin can call him. He is bringing her (pup) to my cousins house for my family to see as he lives further away from me. He is being so nice about traveling to my cousins so we don't have to go as far.

I will try contacting her to contact him and see. I hope it is something of good quality so I don't have to transition her and go through the ups and downs as I have heard so many of the forum go through. 

Though if the food agrees with her....picky dogs wouldn't be allowed in our house. Eat it or don't eat til next time. I will kind of miss the free feeding option as our other dogs grazed as they needed.

The biggest make or break with the 'pup' will be how it acts with my children. 1st impressions are lasting impressions!


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2008)

Ok, if the food she (5 month old pup) is on right now isn't any good...what are some of the top choices out there?

Fromms?
Natures Variety?

I am not sure what my local store will have...so looking for good 'general' brand options. I can probably figure out lamb/chicken/salmon...etc. But brands?

Is there a certain max on protein? I thought another thread (which I can't find now) had something about too much protein having a bad impact? 

Any ingredients to avoid? Is corn a problem? Wheat?

** I may be getting ahead of myself, as we are not sure we are bringing her home with us....but trying to be prepared if we do.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

You are thinking through things in a very organized manner, which is smart. I'm glad to see you aren't rushing into things, but still being open to possibilities with both dogs. I feel for you.

And yes, the consideration of the puppy having a supply of food from the breeder is good. You may even be able to call some pet stores in your area to ask if they carry samples of whatever food that is to try it out.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Kristy, I was posting as you were, so I just saw your last questions. Don't worry too much about food. Find a decent food that is easy for you to get. If you later find out that she has sensitivities/allergies, you can easily change, but don't make it too complicated.

If you really want to know what has already been researched, go to the Advanced Search area, and type in "Journal" (no quotes) with me as the author, and find one of the posts I made about the Whole Dog Journal. You can subscribe to their online issue from February for $10 to see which foods they endorse and why. They did a huge amount of research already, so it will save you a step. In addition, they took the plant (manufacturer) into consideration as well as the source of each ingredient.


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

momof2 said:


> Well, just keeping eveyone updated. I still have Miranda, I can't do it...not yet anyways. I just need to wait for that 'yep, it is time sign' with no questions about it...though I can tell each day it is taking its toll on her. So I may have to do this sooner than I want to. Her time is coming, it would be great if it happened on her own so I don't have to do it. Time will tell I guess.
> 
> If all goes as planned we are going to meet the pup on Sunday. So we may or may not have a new addition Sunday Night.
> 
> ...


I am so glad that you have made a decision you are comfortable with. I pretty much stayed out of it since I knew the decision had to be yours alone. I personally think you made the correct decision. I think you will do the right thing when the time comes. I am glad you made the decision considering the needs of the dog that has shared 16 years with you not based on a possible new puppy. I don't know how you will resist bringing home a cute little havanese puppy! You never know, it might bring a little spark into Miranda in her final days. She may be waiting for you to have someone to love once she is gone.


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2008)

Thanks Kimberly,

One question for you if you wouldn't mind...

I remember you saying that 'puppies' don't need to be on a puppy labeled food correct? So I can buy her the 'adult' version and she will be fine? Or am I mistaken..do I stay on puppy for her first year?


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I don't know of any puppies that have been harmed by eating a non-puppy labeled food. 

I don't feed puppy foods to mine.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Kristy,
Thanks for the update. You'll know when Miranda's time has come. I always did with mine and you will too. We always prayed they would go on their own, in their sleep but it just didn't happen that way. They each had other ways of telling us it was time.

You are really thinking through the puppy possibility. That's terrific. Have fun visiting her. One question.... 2 expens??


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2008)

Yes, 2 expens.

I bought a plastic one for in our kitchen and a metal one for outside. We weren't planning on a new pup yet, so we don't have our kennel/run even started yet. I just started calling for quotes a couple days ago. 

Safety for outside I guess to go potty or if I am out with the kids and helping our youngest go down the slide, etc. 

I am being overly cautious?


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

No, no such thing as being over cautious. I was ribbing you about two pens. I figured you'd have one for inside and one for outside. I have three! :biggrin1:


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2008)

Iams Puppy is what she is on now...so yep, sounds like I will have to 'upgrade'.

I will have to check out my local pet shop again...I don't recall all the different brands that they carry. But I am sure that I woud find something...if of course we take her home.


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## Suuske747 (May 9, 2007)

Kristy, all I can do is send you best wishes and strength..... I am thinking of you.....
Maybe it's that she's waiting for you to get the puppy, so she knows you are taken care of when she has to go?.....I've heard several similar situations before....... Nature works in mysterious ways.......
take care,


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

The food thing will work itself out. Gucci was on Iams puppy when I got her,but she wouldn't eat it here, nor the other dry food I went out to buy...so she ended up eating Little Cesar wet food (junk, I know! lol But she LOVED it and I was panicking that she wasn't eating enough).

So, I added the Little Cesars to the Pro Plan and then eventually Fromms to transition her.

NOW, a year later....she get all homecooked food and occasionally Wellness core or canned venison.

But I remember when she was only at our house for a few days, I just went and bought several different food samples to get her to eat SOMEthing. 

Kara


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## TobyBaby (Mar 8, 2008)

Kristy you are in my thoughts as you ride on this rollercoaster you're on. You're obviously a great dog mom so a new puppy would be lucky to have you.


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

I had Asta on puppy food until he was a year old .. I fed him Wysong Puppy formula which was considered a good food 5 years ago and Tulip still eats it .. not the puppy formula but the maintenance formula they also have a senior .. My friends feed it to their Bichon and he just loves it as well ..
It is never mentioned much on this forum so I thought I should bring it up .. 
Wysong was never on the recall when we had the problems and recalls ..
Cosmo was a different story - he was on so many types of food as a puppy ..He would not eat the Wysong .. The homecooked was the answer to his problems . Originally he was to be on whitefish but he would not eat it so I switched it to a chicken stew .
He thrived on itand I would add some of Newman's kibble . Eventually I had to change the kibble as he did not eat it anymore but initially he liked it a lot.


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

Hi Kristy,

I was wondering how things have been going at your house the past couple days.
Reading this thread is so painful for so many of us because so many of us have been through a similar situation. If we didn't love them so much, it wouldn't hurt so much to see them go. But also, loving them so much means we want the best for them and that means making the hard decisions on their behalf.

A few years ago I had to make that decision for the best dog I've ever had, OneLuckyDog, his body was failing, his systems shutting down. One day I looked in his eyes and he looked so tired and sad, I thought, how selfish of me to want him to stay around, just because I wasn't ready to say good-bye.

The next day we went to the vet who gave him an injection while I held him and gently stroked him. LuckyDog was more concerned with me, and why I was crying, that with himself, and gave me kisses until he peacefully slipped away. I know he was thanking me for helping him.

Recently my dad's time on earth came to an end, and brought so many memories of Lucky's last day's. The last week when his body was failing and his body was shutting down it was obvious that this time he wasn't going to get better. As the days drug by he prayed to pass on, saying he wanted to die and be in heaven while my mother begged him to try "just one more thing" to get better. It broke my heart to watch what my dad went threw those final days and I thought how lucky we are to be able to help our pets when it's their time.

When my dogs have died, I have always been one to want another one ASAP, but I think it's great that you're putting so much thought into doing what is right for you and your family.

All good thoughts and hugs for you.
Beverly


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Beverly, I wasn't ready for your post and you just floored me. I am totally crying typing this. Gryff is only 9 months old, but I already think about how horrible it will be when the time comes. I'm all choked up.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Beverly, I know just how you feel. When my Dad was dying, he made sure every doctor and nurse saw his bracelet that said DNR. When he came home with hospice care, the first thing he said was to make sure there was "the medicine" (morphine) on hand when the time came. And when the time came just a few days later and he asked for the morphine, I was the one to give it to him. I wish our pups could tell us when the time was to let them go. I think instinctively we know.


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

I know it's a very touchy and personal subject. My dad was a deeply religous person and was not afraid to die. To watch him linger in pain was by far the most difficult thing I've ever had to go through. Even when he could no longer speak, his body continued to make animal like noises of agony and anguish. He shouldn't have had to endure that, no one should. It's a gift we can give our pets to spare them that fate.

A girlfriends father passed away at home and when the police came to the house, the very first thing they did was to secure the morphine to make sure no one had "helped" him along. I can understand both points of view, but when you're in the middle of it, it doesn't make much sense.

Beverly


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## MaddiesMom (Apr 1, 2007)

Beverly- My Mom was under hospice care when she was dying of lung/liver cancer. We cared for her in our home, with a bed set up in the living room. Hospice told us NOT to call the police or 911 when Mom stopped breathing, as they would try to rescucitate her. They said to call hospice, which we did during that awful time. Hospice came and poured the remaining morphine down the sink (I guess so no one else could use it). When my Mom was in so much pain in the last few days of her life, the hospice nurse said to ignore the dosage instructions and give her whatever she needed to not be in pain. Fortunately, she passed before that, but I have to say that the hospice nurses are true angels. My instinct was to keep trying to keep my Mom alive (for me), but they said it was cruel. I don't know what I would have done without their support.


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

Jeanne, it sounds like the hospice people who were guiding you were truly angles and I'm so glad that it never got to that point for your mother.

My mom had the same instinct, which is so perfectly natural. I think what made it easier for me was that 15 years earlier, I had taken my dad up to Mayo, where they had told him there was nothing that could be done, to go home and get his things in order. Well he did that, and then nothing happened...with no possible medical explanation, he got better. He felt it was simply a miracle and that God had decided it wasn't his time yet. The Mayo Dr's wanted him to come back so they could try and find out what caused the turn around but he wasn't interested. I disagreed with him at the time, but I understand his reluctance now. 
When his disease came roaring back 15 years later, I felt that I had been lucky in the first place to have him for a dad, and just plain blessed to have him an extra 15 years after he had been given a death sentence by the doctors. He often quoted this bible verse once he got sick again about someone being given another 15 years to live to "spread the word".
His illness made his body quit producing blood so he became very well known at our blood bank and did a bunch of radio and TV commercials for them. He holds the distinguished record of the most transfusions by one person in the state  Anyway..I know that my mom felt like he should keep fighting, or trying a different treatment, or taking a different medication, when all I was wishing was that he could be granted as peaceful of an exit from this Earth as our beloved pets are.

Beverly


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I held my Dad's hand as he passed away. He died from lung cancer. He was diagnosed and died 13 days later. He passed away in the hospital,as Lacy was so crazy for my Dad,while he was staying at my house--he was afraid he'd pass and she'd discover it. He asked me to take him to the hospital. I think I did the right thing for us-but I don't know. Things just happened so fast,and yet that 13 days was so long-----so very long.....

My husband's Mother just passed away last Aug.from cancer. She battled it for years. Hospice was in on her care as well,and made everything as easy as possible.

Given her long drawn out death,I'm glad for my Dad,that his was fast.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Your stories bring back memories. I remember when it was time to let my beautiful "heart dog", Casie, go. Her body was failing. She paced constantly. She had finally stopped eating unless I hand fed her boiled chicken and rice. I tried so hard to keep her with me. She had been my best friend for so very long and was just the perfect dog. One night as I lay next to her in tears I told her it was okay to leave me. The next morning, even though we couldn't bear the the thought we called the vet and told her we thought Casie was dying. We went right in and she agreed we needed to let her go. I turned away toward the wall and just cried. I didn't want her to leave me. We held her in our arms while the vet gave her one shot to calm her (even though she was already calm) and the other shot to euthanize her. She fell alseep in our arms and quietly passed. It was calm and peaceful. We wrapped her sweet body in a soft blanket and drove to the pet cemetary where we left her for cremation. A week later we returned to pick up her beautiful little box.
When my dad passed nearly 8 years ago, he had 14 people beside his bed. The nurses and doctors were wonderful and made him comfortable. Again it was a peaceful passing.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Kristy,
How did the visit go on Sunday?


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

What a sad, yet bittersweet thread.  I'm so sorry for all of you who have lost loved ones, human and furbabies. It is sooooo hard to see them sick and unable to get any better. I cry here, thinking and knowing one day I will also have to face this.

Kristy, I am also excited for you about the new pup! I hope things work out and she is the one for your family. I see you are prepared for any possibility and yup, I agree that Iams isn't the best so you'll want to try and find something healthier. As Kimberly said, just call the stores near you and see which of the better brands they carry and go with that. Good luck and do let us know what happened!!!!!


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2008)

Well,

She isn't the typical happy Havanese. We did bring her home with us for a 'trial run'. I will try to get pictures up this afternoon. She must have been older when she was gotten and not from a good breeder as she is poorly socialized.

She is scared of humans. Dogs she seems to wag her tail for...but us...her tail is between her legs. She was crated/kennel area her entire life and as far we know never on grass. I took her out last night on a leash which was new to her. Every time I would walk...she would stop and look at me with her tail between her legs. She held her potty for 14 hours before I took her out again at 4 this morning...now she is going pee for me outside. She ate some and drank this morning...nothing was touched last night.

I am a little concerned if she will come about with us. I don't want a scaredy dog especially with kids in our home. 

It is sort of funny...she will whine and bark and sort of howl if I am away from her viewing area..she is standing or sitting or even has her paws up on the xpen. Yet when I come into viewing area, she gets quiet, like nothing is wrong and lays down.

I am actuall unsure if the fit will be good for us. I don't know if I have the determination to fully socialize a scared dog of humans, with another ailing dog, which by the way is scared of the new pup plus upbringing of two human children..one of which isn't potty trained yet. Miranda runs away from her and starts shaking. Time will tell I guess as we have her for a little while until we are definite in our answer at least.

Any ideas? Any thoughts? How do you even start to see the temperment of a dog that doesn't want to be touched and runs away when you try to pet her?

I know rescue foster homes do this stuff all the time...not sure if it is just letting the dog know it is safe and won't be hurt or if there is a certain technique to socialize. I have never run across a dog like this before.

Her prior 'owner' had her in a crate all day with a potty pad and she was either keep in it all day or he held her when he was home for a few minutes before it was back into seclusion.

This is tougher than I had hoped it would be.

Still confused....


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## DAJsMom (Oct 27, 2006)

I won't give any advice since this is a situation I have never faced. I feel for this puppy. I think you are the only one who can know for sure if you can handle this situation or not. If this is not a good fit for you, I'm sure havanese rescue can take her and give her what she needs. I bet there's such a sweet girl in there just waiting to be discovered, but you are in a challenging situation and have to think of your children and Miranda and whether your home is the best place for this little girl. Best wishes as you figure this out. You are really doing the right thing trying to see how it might work and thinking of all the right considerations.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I'm surprised to read this pup is so shy/scared. That's kinda sad. I also haven't faced this situation before,so I do not know,but I do hope she warms up to you and your family and it works out for you. Being crated all the time is a terrible life for any dog,but especially for a havanese.It's a shame they got her in the first place,or did not act sooner when they knew this was just not going to work out. A fish would of been a better pet for them I think.At least she has a chance now with you. I'm anxcious to see her pictures!


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

I don't recall how old this puppy is, but if it is young, it may just take some time - she just sounds unsure. If you can get a baby sling, carry her around with you for a few days as much as you can and see if that makes a difference. It can help her bond with you and increase her feelings of security. Plan on it taking about a month before you see big improvements if she hasn't been well socialized. If she's responsive to other dogs, see if you can get her to a puppy class too. Or a well supervised play date.


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## JeanMarie (Mar 2, 2008)

Kristy,
I really feel for you. A dear friend is involved with Papillion rescue and presently has 2 foster dogs and her forever girl, Krysie who was also a rescue. Your dog sounds very much like Krysie when she first came home. It has taken a lot of love and understanding to build up trust in this little dog. After about 9 months, she's SO much happier and social. I don't think she will ever be a totally trusting dog with others. Each dog is different, but with patience you can make a huge difference. It's just a matter of whether you can or want to handle the challenge. Sounds like you have so much on your plate right now... 

Sending you hugs! Jean Marie


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Kristy, 
It sounds like she is going to be a lot of work. I know big changes can be made with shy dogs but it can definitely take a lot of time and effort. See how it goes after she settles in for a few days. Remember, this is another big event in her life, being brought to your house, and she has no idea what's going on. Perhaps you should contact Havanese Rescue. They have a lot of experienced folks you can talk to who can give you some ideas of things to do with her. There's a contact link on their site. She's still a puppy yet, isn't she?


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

I think from what you say about her being penned up all day, it sounds like she had very little human contact. So, it seems natural for her to be shy around people. She probably wasn't socialized very much outside of the people she was living with. I think with some time, she will come around. All she needs to see is that human contact = love and affection.

Now potty training - that is another topic and you can read many threads about it. We all have our ups and downs with that.

I am so happy you have decided to give her a try. But know that whatever the outcome, the forum is here to support you in any way we can. Good luck.


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2008)

She is around 5 months old. She was just outside with my other dog, Miranda, and the pup was going crazy for Miranda. Jumping all over her a wagging her tail. It doesn't seem to be a problem with other dogs. She even wagged her tail for a little while inside afterwards in her expen. She sitting on my lap now...panting like crazy. But just licked my sleeve a couple times.

Now how do I insert pictures into the thread?


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Kristy,

It sounds like your Hav had a pretty tough start, but she is only five months old and it seems to me that she is already coming around a little. Give her time, and I think she will be just fine.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

awww Kristy, I am sorry to hear she is not a perfect havanese. as everyone else has said-only you know what will work with your family and your ailing dog. But I would think a 5 month old pup has a good chance of turning around whether it is with your family or another. I can't wait to see pictures of her. 

-what you do is you hit reply to thread like you would normally do- 
-write what you want to say and then 
-scroll down to "manage attatchments" 
-click on that and a window will pop up. 
-hit browse and it will pull up the files on your computer-- 
-find the file and hit open. 
-Once you see the URL in the first box next to browse hit upload.


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Kristy, it's easiest to upload your photos to www.photobucket.com and then copy the link, hit the picture icon on the message and copy the photo link into it. It automatically comes up with the http:// so just don't double copy that part. We're dying to see these pictures.


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

Thinking of you Kristy. 

These guys are such a sensitive breed, it's just painful to think about them not getting that connection they so need with their humans. I'm sure you are so good for her right now, and I agree with the rest of the folks that you need to first do what is best for your family. 

It will all work out. Yep, we're dying for pics.

Also, I bet she comes out of her shell in the next few weeks and follows you like a little shadow...


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2008)

I am trying to upload pics. but my size it too large. I am not that computer savvy...so this may take me awhile to figure out how to resize my pictures to be under 800 x 800.

I will keep trying, but if anyone has any ideas? Help me.

I don't really have a photo program, just what came with my computer.


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

You can contact havanese rescue to get information as well as just looking for or surrendering a dog. Many of the foster parents and volunteers have worked with rescue dogs with socialization issues. I am sure that any of them would be more than willing to help you out and give you some tips about what has worked for them. It takes a dog at least a day or two to warm up to a totally new environment and maybe she just needs some time to adjust. Hopefully you find the answers you are looking for. I can't wait to see a picture!


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

Kristy,

Tess is a rescue that I adopted 3 months ago. She's 5 years old, so the circumstances may be different. She also wasn't well socialized and is afraid of people. The first few days I had to leave her leash on to catch her she was so afraid of me. For the first week, when I took her outside to potty, I would have to prop the back door open and go into the house before she would come in. She was afraid to come in the door if I was standing near it. She had never walked on a leash, didn't know how to play, etc. She's improved dramatically in just 3 months - but I also live alone without the added responsibility of young children. 

She'll now play with Cody - on a very limited basis (she'll chase him through the house or steal his chew toy and then hide where he can't get at her). She now loves her 2x daily walks but it was a tough few weeks getting there. She loves other dogs, but is still afraid to play with them - she just stands and watches. She'll now go up to people, wagging her tail, but won't let them pet her yet. She's just getting to the point where she wants to curl up in my lap to sleep and I've gotten brief glimpses of a little dog who is starting to enjoy life.

She's very obedient, good natured, inquisitive, and a stubborn little devil at times but I don't think she'll ever have the full, outgoing Hav personality - I think there will always be "issues." 

Unfortunately, I don't think you can predict how long it will take or how much she'll change. It's a gradual process.

There are different joys you get with a rescue .... watching a dog go from being traumatized/neglected to enjoying life is a wonderful experience - they really do seem to appreciate the life you've provided. 

I'm not suggesting you not take this puppy on but I do think you'll want to be realistic that this dog may require more work/patience. Then again, it may just be that she needs to get acclimated to your home. There was a recent thread about the shy hav puppy who within a few days was having a grand time.

Good Luck with whatever you decide to do.

Jill


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2008)

Ok...lets try this now...


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

She is adorable! You could try sitting on the floor not too far from the xpen and leaving it open so that she can come to you. Maybe have some treats and a couple of enticing toys that you are playing with. She may need to feel that she is making the first move. Good luck with whatever you decide. It's a hard decision to make when you are looking at such a cute puppy.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

anneks said:


> She is adorable! You could try sitting on the floor not too far from the xpen and leaving it open so that she can come to you. Maybe have some treats and a couple of enticing toys that you are playing with. She may need to feel that she is making the first move. Good luck with whatever you decide. It's a hard decision to make when you are looking at such a cute puppy.


I think this is what I would try also. She is adorable, I just want to hug & kiss her knowing what she has been through. Good Luck.


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Kristy, thanks for the pictures! She's so cute and looks like she'd love to play but is too shy. As other people said, you're the only one who can make the ultimate decision.
I think if you could leave the ex-pen open and let her decide when she wants to come see you and then let her sniff you, this might help. Also try to lay down calmly and let her approach you or your family and when she does, treat her and gradually start to pet her, etc.
I know Tom King or his wife have experience with shy dogs, you might want to pm him.


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Christy,

She is absolutely adorable!!!!


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Kristy, I was just thinking...if she's used to being crated, do you have a crate in her ex-pen? Maybe you could remove the crate door or leave it open so that she can go in and out her 'den' until she feels more comfortable with her environment.


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2008)

We only have 1 crate which is upstairs in our bedroom at the moment.

The expens we bought were for children...so there is no door to 'leave open' unfortunately. Though I did let her roam around the floor with the leash on after she went potty and she went 'exploring'.

I really appreciate all of the ideas given and will definately try to let her come to us when she is ready. We will see how this goes... 

It is kind of hard because I don't want to get attached to her, yet I am trying to make her trust me at the same time.

She has had no accidents. That is 1 big plus.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Kristy, She's absolutely adorable. Thank you so much for sharing her photos. It breaks my heart to think of what she's been through up till now. I know how you feel about not getting too attached to her in case it doesn't work out for you to keep her but, my goodness, with that sweet face......
It looks like you have a terrific set up for her. I admire your strength to try to take this on. She's just so beautiful. Have you mentioned what her name is? Maybe I missed it.


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2008)

No name yet...just calling her "puppy" . My husband likes "daisy" so if she stays....that may be it...right now...Just 'Puppy'.

It is easier for me not to get attached if she doesn't have a 'name'.


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## casperkeep (May 16, 2007)

She is too cute!!!! I just want to give her hugs and kisses!!!! I hope that things will owrk out for you all!!!!! Just give her sometime.....she will know that you mean well!!!!


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

She is a beautiful little puppy! I hope it works out for you all.
If not, you have really tried hard and that is to be commended.


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## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

She is a gorgeous dog. Love the coloring. Since she is only 6 months old or so (correct?) she might be easier to turn around than you think. Best of luck and I admire your good heart and intentions.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Kristy, she is so cute, your pup! This is the third time I've read parts of this thread and this time without tearing up.

I guess somehow you'll have to build up her trust...I'm not sure how to do that exactly, but maybe you'll get some good advice from others who have done this. 

My friend got a puppy that was very people-shy so when I went to visit, I just sat on the floor and didn't try to approach him. After about 45 minutes, he eventually got curious enough to come sniff me. But I kept it "cool". Later on, I tried to engage him by throwing his ball, but he was still a bit shy. We all went outside together, he ran around, then came back in, and then I sat closer to him (he was on my friend's lap). He was calm, so I made a move to pet him under the chin (not over his head) and he accepted it. By the time I left, he was comfortable with me touching him. He came over and played with Lincoln and Scout and had a great time recently and we'll be dogsitting him for a week soon. 

I hope all will go well for you...and that you'll post more photos soon!


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

She is very cute. I would go ahead and try to sit and see if she approaches you. Maybe have some chicken in your hand etc. I would honestly say it is probably going to take a lot of work on your part to be honest. If she is that shy. It is good that she likes other dogs though. At least she has been social with other dogs. Did you say she was a mill puppy? She is very young so she might be able to outgrow some of her social troubles. Is there a trainer in your area you might be able to contact for additional help?

Amanda


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

maryam187 said:


> Kristy, I was just thinking...if she's used to being crated, do you have a crate in her ex-pen? Maybe you could remove the crate door or leave it open so that she can go in and out her 'den' until she feels more comfortable with her environment.


"Puppy" is adorable. Considering you had a camera pointed at her taking pics, she didn't look too upset.

I have to agree with Maryam, though. I think she needs to spend some time out of the pen so she gets to know her surrounds better, all the sounds and smells, etc. I think she will come around in no time.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Oh she is precious! What a cutie.

I think it will be ALOT easier to re-socialize a 5 month old dog MUCH more than an adult. I don't think it would be as hard as you think. Especially if you reward with good treats and make sure the kids offer her good treats too (maybe even better than the ones you give her!)

Gucci loved cheddar cheese when she was a pup, so that's what the kids and DH would give her, she warmed up to them quite quickly with that method.lol

I hope it works out! If not, I'm sure she will be snatched up in a heartbeat, but if she's too much work for you, then I'd hold off.

Kara


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

She really is cute! Just give her some time and see if she will come out of her shell. Make sure to go down to her level and try not to be too loud when you talk to her, which can help with shy puppies. Good luck and keep us updated on your decision!


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## Gracie's Mom (Sep 7, 2007)

She is so cute!! I think you need to give her a little more time before you can really see her personality. We visited Gracie nearly every week before we got her at 10 weeks - she never cried, but it took her a couple of days to come out of her shell after she came home. She may be extra shy and afraid to interact with humans, but she may also just need time and extra loving. Her world has shaken so many times it sounds. You need to do what is right for your family, but I'm thinking if you give it a couple of weeks you will know more. You are awesome for giving her a spin. We need more caring people like you.

Karen


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2008)

Well, she definately at this point is keeping her distance. No toys...not interested and I tried a piece of hot dog. I couldn't even get her to recognize it. She kept turning away. I haven't tried cheese yet...

As long as someone is within earshot, she seems perfectly fine...but you just can't go near her. I am not sure exactly what all she went through and I am not sure if I can 'fix it'...but I probably will decide sooner than later as I have to decide if I can continue the one on one with her with all of the other things I have going on in my families lives...I need to see if I can find the time or willingness to help her and today I had definately put my family on the backburner. That is something I couldn't do for long...so we will see.

If I decide not to keep her, I must give her back (she wasn't 'given to me' to do as I wish with...just to see if she would fit in with our family) as they want to place her. I did mention that if we didn't keep her and they were having a problem finding someone who has the time to help her that they should contact a rescue...that way they can help rehebiliate her and place her accordingly. I told them I would provide all the contact information, etc. and they seemed to be ok with that.

It has been an easy day as she hasn't walked around or potty in her expen...just lays there. But yet hard as she is keeping her distance. I had her in the den with me awhile ago on a leash and she walked by me and layed down behind my chair and started lightly 'chewing' on a bag a quick "no" and she stopped and just laid there.

This is harder than I thought as I wasn't quite prepared for the 'human shocker' state that she is in. I don't think that she was given much interaction at all. Just a place to sleep and eat.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Milo was rather distant when I got him as well. For the first few weeks he would just go off on his own and just want me to be in sight. He seemed lethargic, and not at all the puppy I was anticipating. I kept thinking something was wrong with him but I gave him his space and time to adjust to his surroundings. He too was five and a half months old and had already established a routine in his old home.

After that initial period of time he became my shadow, my lover, my cuddly baby and I, his best friend. It just takes time with these babies and yours needs to feel safe and secure in her new home. If you can work through it I suspect she'll pay you back ten fold with love and gratitude. I hope you can make it together, for you . . . and especially for this special little girl.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Kristy, this is such a tough decision to make, but one only you can make. It is true she will need much one on one time. And yes, you will likely find yourself putting your young family's needs on the back burner for a while. I am sure of it, but I am also sure that if you give it your all, this young pup will turn around and be quite the family pet. She is still very young. Gosh, she is so adorable too! Love her coloring!

I agree that it would be best to let her come to you, not approach her from above, and not have others get excited around her - for now. Let her move on her terms, with some encouragement, but not with coddling and lots of talking. As Caesar Milan says 'no talk, no touch, no eye contact' lol Take that with a grain of salt, but a bit of that 'indifference' might make the pup feel less threatened. 

That's just the beginning, so yup, this might involve a lot of work and time for you. I just hope that should you decide to take her back, that those people really DO call Hav Rescue or at least some place that will do their very best for this young girl. If you can change a dog at 5 years, as Jill has done, then it's definitely not too late for this 5 month old.

Good luck!!!


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

Aww Kristy, the new "Puppy" is very cute! There are other members here that have had a shy one before. I think Ivy had a hard time with Gryff at first. Things did get better though and I think this little one just needs time to adjust. It sounds like she already sees you as her anchor since she likes to be able to see you. I would suggest you carry *yummy smelling* treats in your pockets and stay somewhat near to her. When she approaches, just let her sniff and check you out. Don't try right off to pet her or award treats. I would wait for her to get comfortable approaching you. Has she had all her shots already? If so, once she is comfortable with the leash you could take her outside for walks. That might be a welcome treat from being cooped up in a crate all day and it might help her see what a great new life she can have.  Good luck Kristy in whatever you decide. I know it's not all happening exactly as you had hoped, but we're all hoping good things are ahead for you both! :hug:


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

Wish we were all there to physically help....with the pup, your aging dog, your kids, cleaning, cooking.

I know how overwhelming it can all be! Wishing you the best from afar. We're only a monitor away should you ever need us.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Kristy. I can't add to what everyone has said. Just offering you and "puppy" support and to say she is a cutie!!


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

How's "puppy" today? How are you feeling about it? Let us know when you can.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Kristy,
I don't think you need to put your family's needs on the back burner. I think you should go about your daily business while still talking to Puppy and being around her a bit. Anything more may overwhelm her. With our shy Maggie, I don't want to say we ignored her because we didn't but we let her approach us in her time. We fed her, we provided her toys (which she wouldn't play with for the longest time) and we talked to her a LOT but we didn't force too much physical interaction at first. Pretty soon she was approaching us and would let us scratch under her chin. Awhile later she would follow us from room to room. Later still and the crowning moment was when she jumped on DH's lap and stayed there.
From Puppy's perspective all she knows is that now she's in yet another new home with new smells and new people she knows nothing about. She doesn't know if she's there for a few days, a week a month or a lifetime. 
It sounds like you are doing great with her so far.


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## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

Kristy, I am honestly sorry to see you are in Wisconsin, and nowhere near N. California, where I live. Because I would take her in a heartbeat. I already have a hav, which would help her learn how to act like one, and I am around all the time to work with her, in an empty nest,. . .


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## Elaine (Jan 17, 2007)

Kristy,
It is a new day and I hope that things are a little better today. You have to know that this is all a shock to your new little girl. She has not been allowed any freedom and probably no affection. I would not push her to much, just let her get use to you and your routine. If you need to take the kids somewhere put the kennel in the car and take the dog with you, she has probably never been on an outing. If the weather is nice you can leave the windows down and let her stay in the car, this is a great time of year. When you have her in the back yard you and the kids should just sit around and not try to force yourselves on her, let her get comfortable. Don't crowd her but let her know you are there. Go about your daily routine and when possible include her in it. You need to at least give her a couple of weeks to settle in and she is young and will adjust quit well if given the chance. You really need to get a hold of Rescue to give you lots of pointers on the basics of helping her adjust because she deserves the chance. You sound like you will make wonderful parents and that is what she needs, she is only a puppy and a scared one at that. She tried to give her love to her owners and they turned away from her and I am sure she doesn't want that to happen again. Let her get comfortable with your household routine. She is there to fit in to your life and given the chance to get comfortable I really think she can and will. Please let us know how it is going, we are all hoping for the best. She is young a seems to want to please given the chance.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Kristy - I just got a chance to read about "puppy" she is beautiful, kinda reminds me of Amy! I agree with all that "ignore" is really the word to use. I have a very shy one and it has to be "her" decision to come to someone, and if that person continues to try to approach her, until she deams it ok, then she will just bark at them and run away. She needs to see you guys in your family environment, being nice, friendly, having fun, and in no time she will come around. I hope they will give you a little more time with her, for her to get adjusted. Let us know how you make out and what you decide, we are all routing for you!!


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Kristy, how are things going with Miranda? And 'Puppy'? Thinking of you.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2008)

Things aren't going the best. She is in definate shock and scared of people. It is kind of hard to let her out of her expen when I have a 22 month old racing after her.

I took her to the vet this afternoon, just for a checkup to see if she had anything wrong...like ear infections, etc. She seems healthy just poorly socialized...if at all socialized. The vet said it was pretty sad to see the state she was in...she was trying to fly off the table when looking into her ears. When I pick her up, she immediately pushes her face as far into the curve of my neck as she can. She is one scared 'puppy'.

This hasn't been as 'simple' as I thought it would be, as I was unaware of her horror of humans. I get a few tail wags when I enter the room and if she is out of her expen and I go sit on the floor....she will sit/lay down within 1 foot of me. But socializing her to fit my family, kids running around, loud noises, etc isn't helping her at this point. She may be better off in a quieter house with no kids or a retired person. She has a LOT of work in store for her. I am not 100% sure I am the person to do it. So for her sake, I better decide, so she can get the help she needs. 

State of confusion and feeling so sorry for the pup....she hasn't had the 'good life' yet. I hope she has a chance to enjoy it...whether it be with me or another person.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2008)

Miranda is still acting like she was...so no improvements (which was doubtful anyways) and not any big downhill turns...she right now she has more life to live with us.


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Oh Kristy, this is so hard.


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## Elaine (Jan 17, 2007)

Have you read through some of the suggestions? Let her be scared at the house, let her get use to the noise and confusion, it is all part of a household. When we have puppies that are going to be shown and they are use to only being at home or a trip to the store it is hard to expect them to go into a noise building and show with all those dogs and distractions around so we take them as puppies to to show and leave them in their kennel or stroller, which ever the case is, and don't make a fuse when they are not happy. Leave her in the x-pen except for trips to go potty and you can do that with a leash if she doesn't come back to you. Don't pay to much attention to her except off and on. Let your kids do what kids do. She needs to find out that is part of life, no matter where she lives things will go on around her that won't please her. She will warm up but she has to know that you don't feel sorry for her but that you are there for her. Thank you for letting us know of her progress, I know several of us would love to be close to you to help with her. She seems so worth it and I really think that HRI could really help you with great tips as they deal with this all the time.


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## PMcCoy (Feb 25, 2008)

Kristy, 

This is a very hard decision. I do agree that you should try and meet the dog to see what he/she is like. I had a Shih Tzu for 15 1/2 years and she started to do all the same things you are describing. I even put her in doggy diapers for a while. It is heart wrenching to have to let go but sometimes it is in the best interest of the dog. Good Luck. If you do decide the take the puppy send us photos. Lily and Toby's Mom


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

PMcCoy, Kristy has the puppy at home since a few days to try and see what happens. You can see her pictures if you go a few pages back.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Kristy- sorry to see things aren't becoming easier. Could you give yourself a week to fully try it out? Some dogs require a longer adjustment period. It is really sad that a young pup like this hasn't received any socialization. Unfortunately, I don't think it is easy at any age. I think it might be something you just have to decide whether you are up for it or not. It doesn't make you love her less, etc. We all know what we can handle and what is best for us.

<hugs>
Amanda


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I wish I were closer to you also. I think fixing the things you're describing are a function of time. That poor thing has no frame of reference for trusting the people in her world. I so wish I could put my arms around her and whisper "it's going to be alright. You're home now." My heart goes out to you all.


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## PMcCoy (Feb 25, 2008)

Kristy, 

She is wonderful! I hope she brings you many years of happiness. 

Lily and Toby's Mom


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

That is so sad.

I wish I was closer. I'd love the opportunity to work with her and help her trust humans and love her to pieces!

Kara


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2008)

*Not much of a tail*

I noticed that her tail is rather thin and unlike the 'hairy' rest of her. I am wondering if she chewed on it somewhat for anxiety since she was cooped up all her life. There is hair on it..no bare spots, just wondering...I thought it would be 'furrier' (is that a word? ;-).

My daughter just ran in here to tell me to "look what the dog did!"

I walked out to the living room and the 'puppy' was sitting up on the couch. Kind of cute....I asked if she put the puppy up there...she said no...My husband would not find it cute. No animals on the furniture...well, he wasn't here...so it doesn't hurt him right?.?.? Our secret..though I am sure my daughter will tell him as soon as he walks in the door later tonight.

I guess that is one way of getting out of the way of a 22 month old.


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## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

Kristy, I am so sorry this situation isn't working out how you hoped. It sounds like this little girl needs a lot of help, and it is okay if you are not the one that can give it to her at this time. I am sure with a lot of work, you can make a difference for this dog, but if you don't have that in you right now, that is okay. You need to do what is best for you and your family and know that none of us here will judge you for it. If things don't work out, please be sure to tell the owners about HRI and hopefully they can find the right family (or perhaps a single person or couple) to work with her so she can come out of her shell and enjoy life. I wish I could do something to help you. I just want you to know that you don't have to do this if isn't meant to be. Don't get me wrong, I would love to hear that things work out for you and her, but you need to know that it is okay if they don't.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

I really give you credit for trying. It's not an easy situation. But, it would be better to place her in a home where she can get the attention she needs. It will be hard on her for a while, but I think in the right home, she will thrive. Even though I think the couch thing was a good thing.


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## Gracie's Mom (Sep 7, 2007)

Kristy,

I totally agree with the others. Don't beat yourself up if you have to give her back. You are a good person. There are times in all of our lives when we have time and there are times in our lives when we don't have extra time to give. I'm sure at another time in your life it might have worked out better. It IS OK to say "no" - that is one word our culture has a hard time with. Your kids are, and should be the most important right now. They are so young. Overscheduling and too many things to do is not all it is cracked up to be. Your kids would love a less stressed Mom. I'm NOT saying you should give up, if you don't want to. But you do need to know that there are so many people here that do understand you and support whatever you decide. I believe you really want to do what is right for this puppy, but you've first got to look at your families needs. Little puppies are precious and this little one you have isn't anything less, but her needs are high and its good you recognize them before you've had her a while and she gets too attached to you. I'm sure that her future will bring a loving family. Believe that in your heart. You can't take the weight of her future in your own heart. You have provided a loving home for her while you've had her, and you shall be blessed for it.

Karen


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

Kristy,

I agree with what the others have said, especially Karen. I get the impression your head has decided what needs to be done, your heart just hasn't caught up yet (which is completely understandable).

I went through something similar last year with a 5 month Hav pup. Within days I knew it wasn't a good fit but we had fallen in love with her the minute we laid eyes on her. When I couldn't take the stress any longer, I took her back to the breeder. I was ashamed that I couldn't make it work, it was heartbreaking to let her go, and I cried for days but in the end I realized I was mostly relieved. I think of her often and wonder how she's doing but I do know it was the best thing, for her and us. There were so many times in the months following tht I said, "Oh thank goodness we don't have her. What would we have done." It just wasn't meant to be.

My heart is with you.

Jill

Okay, so I just went to the 'puppy cut' thread and now I'm not so sure my impression is right.....You're in a rough spot. Hang in there, the answers will come.

Jill


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## JanB (Oct 26, 2007)

Kristy, I just read through the recent posts and just want to say that I brought home a well socialized puppy from a great breeder, yet she took a while to adjust to our home. I seriously thought something was wrong with her. Turns out the only thing "wrong" is she is just a sensitive little girl who needed time to adjust to a move and her new people. Today she is a completely different dog.

She really shouldn't be any more "work". She probably just needs time. Don't coddle or baby talk, just go about your business. Hand feeding helps too so she learns to trust that all good things come from you. You might try tethering her to you as you go about your day to help with bonding. At 5 months she is so young it shouldn't be difficult to socialize her to your family. 

BTW, Tessa clung to me, digging her nails in my neck, and was scared to death on our first vet visit too. It was just one more strange experience among so many in a short period of time. Now he's her best friend and she wags her tail and gives him face licks.

I think the fact that she jumped on your sofa is a good sign! My DH was adament about no dogs on the furniture too until we got Tessa. Remember Havs don't shed 

Good luck, I hope things work out. She is precious.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I thought my husband might pull that 'No dogs on the Furniture" stuff, but he fell way TOO hard for Gucci, she even sleeps in our bed. I never, EVER find any hair on the furniture, nor has she ever damaged it in anyway. Heck, my kids damage the furniture WAY more than a dog could. lol

It would be hard to keep her off because she always wants to be touching one of us. I think its a good sign she's warming up.

Kara


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2008)

*Update*

Well, We still have the pup and she is 'slowly' warming up. She follows me around like a shadow when she is out of her expen. She still startles easily and runs away from anyone who would try to pet her. She is starting to show a little interest in a plush toy.

I know that this pup isn't the ideal scenerio for someone thinking about getting another happy joyful playful dog...and since having her here with us....my idea of having another dog once my Miranda has passed isn't something I am 100% certain I want at this point. THough I do know, or at least hope I do realize, that a happy, healthy socialized pup would be so different in our family compared to the state she is in.

I will be the primary provider, cleaner, washer, feeder, pooper picker-upper, trainer, etc. My husband can love a dog, but doesn't want to take part in any of the things caring for a dog entails.

We lost our Yorkie mix last year and our Miranda will not be with us for much longer, I have always had a dog and now that Miranda is ailing and we have two young children at home, I think my priorities have changed.

I feel that it is sort of a blessing that this 'pup' has come into our lives to enrich me with the knowledge of having another dog again and knowing that it would be needing someone who could without reluctance, give the next 16 years to.

My husband works 7 days a week, is gone alot...two young children, house to keep in order...I think I have a lot of my plate right now. I kind of consider my self a single mom of 3 (2kids and a hubby) and I am not sure if I want another dog on my list of to do things.

We will be keeping her awhile longer as I have found some ways to keep my family in order with the pup being here. The fact that she is older and can hold it longer between pottys is great as she is out of her expen roaming the house more than she is in it. 6 days and no accidents at all. Pretty darn good considering she wasn't trained for outside. I think having her here with us isn't doing any harm...but good for her at this point.

I let her 'owners' know that we wouldn't be keeping her, but she could stay awhile longer to come out of her shell for her next family. They will keep looking for a new owner or decide if they will offer her to a rescue to place her. I guess I feel good knowing that I could help this poor little pup at least a little, who are scared of everyone and now comes and licks my daughters foot when she is sitting in her reading chair.

It is amazing how loving I think she can/will be once she trusts people. I have gotten quite a few hand licks and toe licks (which are so gross!) and I know it is her way of showing me that she is starting to open up and trust me. I just feel bad that she will probably slip back in fear of the new owners and be sad of why I am not there for her anymore...if dogs can think/feel that way?

So I just wanted to say thank you for everyone that has offered support or ideas to help me. In the end, timing is not right for me, but she will find the perfect home...I know it.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

This makes me SO sad, my eyes teared when I was reading your post.. She is just starting to warm up and fall in love with you and your family and now she's going to have the rug yanked up from underneath her and given away..again?  She's going to be so depressed and confused.

I really hope her owners call Hav Rescue and find someone commited to her and the breed, and she finds a great home. I hope they don't just give her to someone not sure again, that would be so confusing to her.

Don't take this the wrong way, but maybe you should consider a different breed that needs less 'attention'? Havs are very needy, and if your family situation is that that you dont' have much time for a dog..than maybe a Hav isn't the right match for you at this point of your life. They are very much 'companion' dogs and do want to be with you all the time.

Kara


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Aw, Kristy, it is a tough situation. I think it's very caring of you to keep the puppy until her next move as I'm sure she's had a number of changes already. This will allow her to know what a loving family is like and feel a bit more relaxed.

When we got Sammy, at 7.5 months, he wasn't at all what I had expected. I already had Ricky, who was 8 mths. old and had him since the age of 9 weeks. Sammy was very nervous, jumpy and unapproachable for weeks. He was/is the King of Lickers and that helped him and us warm up to each other. I had my doubts for two weeks. His physique isn't quite as "Hav-like" as most Havs are and his behavior and level of sociability wasn't either, so I was very disappointed. Well, it wasn't long before he captured my heart (everyone else here was already totally in love with the little guy) and I haven't regretted it since. 

I totally understand your decision, Kristy. Raising a young family is tough work and having a dog just might not be in the cards for you right now. I wish the puppy all the best and hope and pray she finds the perfect, loving home for her future.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Kristy, 
Is the owner of the pup willing to let you help find a new owner?


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## suzyfrtz (Nov 12, 2007)

I feel so sad reading this thread. Poor little girl, she has been shifted from pillar to post. I'm glad she has a loving home with you now, Kristy, but can only hope that her next move will be to her forever home. 



Suzy


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

It took Gryff a while to warm up to us. I thought there was something seriously wrong with him. I talked to the breeder about taking him back, but then he started coming out of his shell. It just took him a while to adjust, that's all. I hope everything works out for her.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2008)

Thumperlove said:


> I hope they don't just give her to someone not sure again, that would be so confusing to her.
> 
> Don't take this the wrong way, but maybe you should consider a different breed that needs less 'attention'?
> 
> Kara


Kara, my intentions were very well in place. I took some time before even considering taking her into our home for a 'trial run', this wasn't something I just jumped into. I understand your frustration, but it can't be greater than mine.

It isn't the breed, it is any dog in general. I want to make my family my first priority and the little bit of spare time I have in the day (if I can find any) is something I need for myself. I don't expect people to understand and may be mad at me for even taking her on... but this is my life and I feel I need to do what is right for me and for my family and I am glad I am smart enough to know that she deserves someone 110%, it just isn't me at this present time.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2008)

I feel everyones disappointment. It sound like you guys are disappointed and upset with me for not giving her time. To each there own I guess, but I know what I can handle right now...I am keeping her until the owners decide on what they want to do...so at least I am not giving her back so she can be shoved her back into her crate for 20 hours a day. 

So I guess I can't please everyone....


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

I think what you have done is amazing! Even if it's just for a week, two weeks, or a month. You have shown her kindness where others haven't. When she moves on to a new home she will take those few kindnesses with her and maybe know that people aren't as bad as she once thought. 

You should never feel bad about making a decision you feel isn't the best interest of your human family. Plus, she is not a typical havanese. If in the future you do decide to get another dog, havanese may still be a great choice. 

I think you have done the most caring thing you could have. I wish the puppy the best and hope that she finds her way into a caring home when she leaves yours. I am sure this has been so hard on you and will be for a time until you know she is in a place that she is thriving. 

I would never be disappointed in someone that opened their home and heart to a dog in need. I am thankful that you took the time to even try. I am sure that her situation at our house is the best she's been in to date.

Take care and do what's best for you and your family and let us know where she goes when the time is right.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Kristy I know this was a hard decision for you but I really feel you should call Havanese Rescue, they can give her the time and energy it is going to take to socialize her properly before she finds a forever home. I strongly feel this would be the best for her at this time. :hug:


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2008)

It is not up to me to call or place her in rescue. The owners of the dog, let me see if we were a proper home. It is up to them to place her in a new one or place in a rescue. I would love to place her in rescue, but it isn't my call.


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Kristy,

of course we're all disappointed, but we're disappointed WITH you, meaning: we hoped that you find a perfect match, because you put so much thought and preparation into this whole procedure with all the other stuff you have going on. I think Kara chose the wrong words if she didn't mean it the way she said it. And if she did mean what she wrote, then I disagree.
You tried your best and as you say: what you're doing for 'Puppy' in the meanwhile til she finds a forever home is MUCH better than her former life. Basically what you are doing right now is fostering her. After all, it's YOUR household, YOUR family, YOUR life and YOUR decision.

Kara, 
I understand your frustration, but you should re-read your post and see how you would feel if someone told you that after you tried so hard to make it work. Try to see it as Kristy fostering 'Puppy', maybe that will make you feel more comfortable.

I hope for the dog's sake, that his owners give her to Hav Rescue.


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## Jacklyn Weeks (Dec 23, 2007)

Well this is definitely a sad situation and all I can say is that I'm glad this dog isn't with the owners and I hope that she will very soon find a forever home, especially at such a young age.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Kristy-
Don't feel bad, I know what commitment it truly takes and to be honest, people don't like hearing but the dog will likely never be that great easy going dog with people that everyone wants. Honestly that is why I push people to go find their dog with great breeders. That early age is very important and not having, I honestly think you can never undue how the dog was socialized in the beginning.

My Dora was with a breeder who had way too many pets- dogs and horses. She wasn't very socialized when we picked her up but we were stupid and fell in love. To this day, Dora has titles in every venue but she can't do therapy dog because it stresses her out all the strangers touching her. I love Dora so much but if there is anything I could undue it is that. She has had so much training, been thru tons of classes, competitions, etc. She is a different dog than when she came home but she still doesnt have that I love people attitude most dogs do. If you saw her on the street, she would sit and let you pet her but she wouldn't seek you out. I think those 12 weeks are so crucial. 

I think rescuing is great but it is a lifelong commitment. If you can't honestly do it, just find the best home possible or rescue can for you. You were great for getting the dog out of the situation it was in. That makes you her little angel. 

I don't have a rescue dog and I know why- I can't commit to it. My dogs go to competitions, travel, around strangers all the time, etc. I know my lifestyle isn't cut out for a dog that needs a lot more training and practice for those situations. It wouldn't be fair to the dog.

Also, if you find her going to a home that is more suited for her than yours, that is when you know what you did was right. You let the dog find her forever home, not the other way around! 

And also, you have little ones to take care of. Wait and find your puppy with the socialization out of the way. That is what I am sure to do for my next puppy.

Amanda


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## JeanMarie (Mar 2, 2008)

You have absolutely nothing to feel bad about, Kristy.

Puppy is in a loving and safe place right now and is learning that humans won't hurt her. That is what fostering is all about. Perhaps that was what you were "meant" to do! You took her with all intent to make her your forever dog and it just didn't work out the way you hoped. You are to be commended for caring and giving her a chance! While she is with you, give her all the love you can. I am sure there's a family out there that will bless you for bringing out those licks and wags.

Sending you wam hugs, Jean


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## Tritia (Nov 17, 2007)

I think if more people realized they didn't have the time and energy for a dog,less would end up neglected (like this one has) or dumped in shelters.
Many people are suckered in by the cuteness of a puppy (guilty myself) to learn later, it was WAY harder then they thought it would be. 
Sure, it's sad this pup has been here and there. But, you gave it a shot. Nobody can fault you for that. What are you suppose to do? Suck it up at the expense of your kids and your sanity? In my opinion..no. Like Jeanmarie said, that's what fostering is. Course, I do agree this pup will probably come around and do better then you think. 

And another thing clicks for me with this situation. You've been researching this breed for a bit, posting and reading here on the board. The hav to you, like so many here is probably your dream dog. 
Not that I worry you'll be let down by this dog, but I think someone else out there with maybe less expectations will be better suited. I don't think you're wanting the "perfect" dog. But, I don't think this is what you thought of when you were wishing for a havanese.
I'll be honest..and I'm going to duck, lol. Cooper, while I love him to bits is NOTHING like the dogs I read about here. Sure, he's cute, bouncy, silly. But he's rarely, if ever affectionate. He doesn't play much at all. House breaking has been an issue, then there's the barking ,the jumping on everyone, and several other issues I've yet to have with any other dog I've owned. If I didn't hear such great things before about havs, and read things here, I would never recommend this breed to anyone  I think that's maybe why I've wanted a second, to really see what the fuss was all about 
I've since reconsidered that, and now we're doing a small renovation on our kitchen for the same price as a new puppy, lol. 

Good luck to you. And again, don't feel bad.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Kristy, I agree with everyone here that you have nothing to feel bad about. You were not looking for a rescue, one just dropped in your lap. You tried it, and it is not for you or your family. 

I do bet if "Puppy's" owner, were to post a post here on the forum along with your experience- and the fact that she is coming around a bit in as short a time  with your loving family-- she would be scooped up in a minute by some one with more time and more experience bringing shy/shocked pups out their shell. 

I applaud you for being willing to foster her until her owner's figure it out. At least with you she is out of her crate.

Hugs to you-- this all must be very hard.


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Kristy~ You've been an angel to Puppy, no one can fault you for anything you've done. You did a difficult thing by bringing him into your home to see if it would work in your situation. Realizing it's not to be, you're now having to do the harder thing by sending him away. I'm sure your heart is breaking. 

I commend your honesty with yourself and us. You are a good person with a loving heart. Right now just isn't the time, good for you for realizing that. God bless you and Puppy.:hug:


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Maryam,

I have to disagree with you on this one. This is a very static medium and things can be misconstrued. I don't see anything wrong with what Kara said. I think her comment came from a really caring place and she may be right that having a hav with all the work it entails might not be right for Kristy and her family at this time in her life.

As for puppy, if they would send her to me I would take her (with all her current needs) in a New York minute. That baby so needs to feel safe and secure in her environment. My heart breaks for her. All my loving thoughts go out in the direction of that sweet baby and Kristy and her family.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2008)

Yes, it is true that when I was talking about the possible new addition, I had no idea of the state she was in. I didn't find out about her shyness or her horror of humans until I visited her. I didn't plan on taking in and rehibilitating a 'rescue' when I pictured adding a new dog into the family. But what would it hurt to try, at least she would get more love than she was getting before.

So I decided to give her a try...I want to thank those who supported my efforts.

To those who don't and think I am just hurting/confusing her more by 'pulling the rug' from underneath her again...and unwilling to help her...well, I don't know what to say to those of you. Because it is untrue. She has a long way to go but has definately made some positive strides to finding out a dogs life can be nice and not scary.

I tried my best, this is not what my 'dream havanese' is or what I was expecting...but I will show her that humans are caring and loving and won't hurt her as long as I have her.


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Geri, sorry, I should have quoted which part of Kara's post I was referring to:



> This makes me SO sad, my eyes teared when I was reading your post.. She is just starting to warm up and fall in love with you and your family and now *she's going to have the rug yanked up from underneath her and given away..again?* She's going to be so depressed and confused.
> 
> I really hope her owners call Hav Rescue and find someone commited to her and the breed, and she finds a great home. I hope *they don't just give her to someone not sure again,* that would be so confusing to her.


Sorry, but I think that sounds quite pejorative. And if you read Kristy's last post, that's how she saw it too.


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## Gracie's Mom (Sep 7, 2007)

What we have to keep in mind . . . if you read this thread and kept up from the beginning . . . you could 'feel' the confusion Kristy felt from the start. Right off the bat, she wasn't sure it was going to work. She never mislead 'puppy' previous owners. She has a lot on her plate with her old dog dying, her traveling husband and her two small children. Maybe she should have realized that was too much before taking on more. I think when you "try-out" a dog you realize the problems are going to be more than an average dog, but I don't believe she knew it would be to this extent. But I believe she has a good heart and wanted to do the 'right' thing. She is doing 'puppy' so much good just by not kenneling it 20 hours a day. The previous owners seem like the heartless people. I do believe 'puppy' can be rehabilitated to an extent, but it may never be the true hav personality like others have mentioned. She just can't take all that extra time to 'rehabilitate' the 'puppy'. People handle situations differently. People handle stress differently. Some people have more energy and don't freak out from all of the stress in their lives. She knows her limits (now that she sees 'puppy'). Personally, I'm one of those people that can't take on a ton of stress either. If I take on too much - my ENTIRE family feels the stress and that is NOT fair to them.

Karen


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Kristy,
I certainly understand and support your decision. Your children need you and if you would be doing 100% of the dog care on top of small children, it would be too much. You gave "puppy" a chance and keeping her with you to socialize her is a big help. I hope that her owners will do what is best for her and find her a home with people willing to take on her "baggage" or let HRI do that for them instead of placing an ad in the paper or taking her to the shelter. In the meantime, you are doing her a world of good by teaching her that people are not bad.
I know we are all sad that it didn't work out. Sad for you and sad for puppy. Puppies are a huge commitment socialized or not, and the thought that this little girl hasn't had the easiest start in life makes it all the more sad. It's not your fault. You tried to make it better for her. Keep the faith.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

It's funny. I read Kara's post so differently. I certainly didn't mean to put Kristy down by my reply and hope nobody took it that way. My heart just breaks for that poor puppy and my inclination is to want to rescue it and give it the life it deserved from birth. I may be naive, but I truly believe this sweet animal, in the right environment, will blossom and not only feel the love, but be able to return it ten fold. If you think I'm wrong about this, please don't tell me. I prefer to live in my own world, where everything can be made right.


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

Kristy, will Miss Puppy's "owners" let you help out with finding a good home for her? If so, I'm sure you could use a lot of contacts through this forum and also one of the Hav rescues. I'm pretty sure a group like H.A.L.O. would totally be on board with helping to find a great home for her.

I have to say that I personally brought home our great dane as a puppy when my oldest child was 18 months. It was really hard having a toddler and a new puppy around, and my dane was really great with my son. Also, before we got our puppy, I had visited a two year old dane at a shelter, had him on a leash for about thirty seconds and was pretty darn positive in those thirty seconds that I would be acting irresponsibly if I took him home.

I think what you are hearing from ALL of us on the forum, is that we so love this breed, and really wish all of them could be in lovely homes like our beloved pups are. I think what you are hearing is we wish we could save her and get her to the future she deserves.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Posh's Mom said:


> Kristy, will Miss Puppy's "owners" let you help out with finding a good home for her? If so, I'm sure you could use a lot of contacts through this forum and also one of the Hav rescues. I'm pretty sure a group like H.A.L.O. would totally be on board with helping to find a great home for her.....
> 
> I think what you are hearing from ALL of us on the forum, is that we so love this breed, and really wish all of them could be in lovely homes like our beloved pups are. I think what you are hearing is we wish we could save her and get her to the future she deserves.


DITTO!!


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

I think the major problem is that Havs are known to be such an outgoing, friendly breed. So along comes one that is not as expected, and you are disappointed with the dog. 

This dog didn't have a "normal" situation. It didn't have the contactthat Havanese need. They are so a smart, but also very sensitive so I think she is just so confused and frightened - not of her humans, but just in general. It seems she is coming around, but slowly. And I agree with Kara. Havs are known as companion dogs for a reason. They need a companion. Maybe a less needy dog would be the right fit.

I think right now you are just overwhelmed with all that is going on. Trying to decide about Miranda, trying to help a scared new dog, plus dealing with kids, etc. It's a lot to take on.


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

Kristy,

I'm behind you 100% on your decision. I know how hard this has been to do. I hope you can start feeling better now that the decision has been made. I give you a lot of credit to keep Puppy until another home can be found. 

Jill


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## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

Oh dear, I am SO frustrated because, like Geri, I really seriously would love to take this little girl, Kristy, but I'm in Northern California. Would the owner consider shipping her to me? To San Francisco airport? But that might just be too much trauma for her ( I have already named her Daisy in my mind.). I do believe in my heart-of-hearts that she can be socialized successfully because she is so young, and in the short time you've had her, she is making strides. Plus she seems to be doing very well in the housebreaking area, which tells me she has a fundamental stability and need for order and to please.

I completely understand where Kara is coming from and don't feel she should be criticized for being forthright and speaking from the heart--I'm heartbroken,too. I guess this just isn't a fit for Kristy and her family right now. At least the dog has had a much more positive experience than previously. Yes, it should be viewed as a fostering, interim situation I guess. It was good of you to try, Kristy. I certainly never attempted a puppy when my kids were small.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

You've had to make a couple of very tough decisions recently, Kristy and I think it's very brave of you to admit that now is just not the right time for you to raise a puppy. Better now, than a year, two years from now when the separation will hurt much more on both sides. You've also had to really think about Miranda and that must have been very painful for you. Miranda's issues are still ongoing so there is that to consider as well. 

I am not judging you, as I know that for a few days I also had the feeling that Sammy just wasn't right for me, wasn't what I'd wanted in a Hav. I had to vent and found a few friends that helped me sort out my feelings. It was very hard and I felt like crap for feeling as I did. I had my best friend jump at my throat for even broaching the subject of Sammy not being what I'd thought he'd be and that didn't feel good at all.  But, with time and much encouragement, I realized that I wouldn't have it any other way and he is as near and dear to my heart as Ricky is and always will be. I don't have young kids to consider though. I know how tough that can be for finding any kind of time and energy!

You are doing the right thing. Yes, it hurts to see puppy changing homes, but I prefer that than knowing you are keeping her out of a sense of guilt. That would backfire, in my opinion, and would be worse. Please don't feel badly, Kristy. ((hugs))

Kara, hon, I don't think you meant anything mean by your comments. It's just that we love these guys so much and want the best for them. Our emotions can run high sometimes. ((hugs))


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2008)

*I will be taking a break from the forum*

Just sending a note that my obvious confusion about her has taken its toll on me and I need to take a break.

For those of you asking via the thread about her being able to come home to you or shipped to you and those who asked questions via PM, I would have to ask the owners. I don't think that would want to fly her, but I can ask.

....I just need a break...some comments are just too hard to take at this time as I am trying my best and I was not 100% sure about her to begin with as if you had followed the thread completely, I have a lot on my plate right now, let alone that fact that I was unaware of her 'state of mind' condition. So a trial run was done, unfortunately it didn't work out and I don't want to be rediculed for causing her more harm than good because I totally disagree if you could have seen her when we brought her home to what she is like today. I did more good than harm.

So I am signing off.......


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## DAJsMom (Oct 27, 2006)

Kristy,
I am just sad that you seem to feel so badly about this. I said a while ago that you are the only one who can decide what works for you and your family and it sounds like you have done that. This puppy isn't the only thing you have to consider, and you have done your best to give this a chance to work out. I hope you can enjoy whatever time you have left with Miranda, and continue to enjoy your family as it is now. There is no shortage of good homes available for this puppy, and hopefully her owners will take one of the offers that is out there or let rescue take her in. She will adjust, and you have done your best for her while you could! I for one will be glad to hear from you on the forum again whenever you are ready!:hug:


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## Tritia (Nov 17, 2007)

:hug:


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## Gracie's Mom (Sep 7, 2007)

Please come back after this heated moment has passed. We would all love to her what happens to dear little 'puppy' with a rough start. I would be thrilled to see someone from the forum take her. She would be loved. The time just wasn't right for you, but someone will be able to give her what she needs. Would someone from the forum pay be able to pay for her fare (delivery) if they wanted her? Just a thought - the plane trip may be tough, but that would end shortly. 

I pray you find comfort during the last times with Miranda as well. I know that is a tough situation all on its own.

Wishing you the best!
Karen


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I would assume any of us who offered to take her would pay for her fare. I know I would. 

I too hope you'll let us know the end of the story. I'm sure we all truly care. Speaking for myself, I certainly do.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Kristy- don't take it personally, I think a lot of people are passionate here about their dogs and therefore the breed. Please feel free to contact HRI if the family does want to place her. There she will stay with a family and get training and work through her behavioral issues and later finding the family that is perfect for her- it may be an older retired couple with another dog, etc.

As for everyone else that is passionate about the breed, and think you would like to help the breed, Havanese Rescue is in need of foster families. Please feel free to look around the site and fill out an application. We currently have more dogs than we ever have and I have been a member for about 3 years.

http://www.havaneserescue.com/

Fostering http://havaneserescue.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=110&Itemid=150


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Kristy, I hope you'll feel up to joining us again soon. I know your heart is hurting right now. 

Take care,

Hugs


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Amanda, I think that is a great idea, to post the links. If I was closer, I'd see what I could do to help. The Cdn. Hav Rescue is pretty much non-existant in Quebec, though I'm sure there are Havs somewhere out there. Time for me to check that out.


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

> I think Kara chose the wrong words if she didn't mean it the way she said it. And *if* she did mean what she wrote, then I disagree.


Quoting myself here. I too am 100% sure that Kara didn't mean to be mean or offending towards Kristy. That's why I thought the choice of words was misleading. Obviously everybody here (including myself) is very passionate about this breed and particularly 'Puppy'. And I never criticized Kara's remark about Havanese being companion dogs, etc.

Kristy, hope you will check back with us and understand that everyone's being very passionate and considerate about ALL Havanese, especially when they hear about its past and doubtable future.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Kristy, I hope you do not leave the forum because of anything I said. Honestly, I pretty much knew you wouldn't be keeping the puppy when I read Post #124



> No name yet...just calling her "puppy" . My husband likes "daisy" so if she stays....that may be it...right now...Just 'Puppy'.
> 
> It is easier for me not to get attached if she doesn't have a 'name'.


And that's OK. It is OK for this to not be the right timing. I do think your family matters, and YOU and your situation.

I guess what is difficult, and really very sad to me, is that this thread is basically about a 5 mo. old Havanese that has *NEVER* been loved. That just breaks my heart. Her owners don't love her, and I do think it is natural to be afraid to open your heart and love a dog when you sort of already know inside that you wont' be keeping her.

It just seems like this dog has been objectified, and that makes me so very sad. Its not a pair of shoes, or a car to test drive, it has emotions and feelings just like WE do. "Puppy" feels happy and sad, fear and love. I'm not sure why the owners got a dog in the first place, but atleast they are trying to undo the mistake they made getting her.

I just really want to see the owners place her with someone 100% committed, that's all. And I just thought maybe since they trusted you enough to let you take her on a test drive, that maybe you could influence them to contact someone who loves this breed, like HRI or HALO, or someone on the forum that has expressed interest in adopting her. That's all.

I really am just saddened by the OWNERS and the SITUATION. I do think you are being responsible and mature. The comment about maybe this isnt' the right breed, well, that was sort of based on your comment that kisses grossed you out, and I do think if you had a Hav that was underfoot all day, would even be more difficult than a Hav that keeps his/her distance, quite honestly. They are very high maintenance dogs on an emotional and 'attention' level. They do like aLOT of attention, much like toddlers. And I do think they love giving kisses. I mean, if I get up to go to the bathroom at 2am, my girl follows me. She barely EVER leaves my side, and I know that is pretty characteristic of the breed...after they fall in love with you.

I never had a dog when I had toddlers, personally, I couldn't have handled it.

I am not judging you nor am I 'mad' at you, this story just makes me sad, that's all. Please don't read more into it than it is. "Puppy" needs a voice, and Puppy probably didn't get the memo on 'not falling in love', I just know how sensitive these dogs can be, and I hope you can influence the owners in a positive direction, that's all.

I do not think any puppy is born fully socialized and even a new pup would take a fair amount of work. 5 months old is still very young, and I don't think she's as 'damaged' yet. She is still very impressionable and I think once she is loved and nurtured, she will blossom. If you read more 'puppy' threads on this forum, you will see that many deal with fearful/apprehensive puppies for the first few weeks. They just take a little time to build trust, that's pretty normal.

Kara

PS. I will get back to those today on all the emails and PM's I received yesterday! :kiss: .


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

All very well said, Kara.


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## havanesebyha (Apr 25, 2007)

momof2 said:


> It is amazing how loving I think she can/will be once she trusts people. I have gotten quite a few hand licks and toe licks (which are so gross!) and I know it is her way of showing me that she is starting to open up and trust me. I just feel bad that she will probably slip back in fear of the new owners and be sad of why I am not there for her anymore...if dogs can think/feel that way?
> 
> So I just wanted to say thank you for everyone that has offered support or ideas to help me. In the end, timing is not right for me, but she will find the perfect home...I know it.


Kristy, I can see your very overwhelmed now and I want to thank you for finding it in your heart to bring "Puppy" into your family, and that was very kind of you. I personally think she is just coming around with the few hand licks and toe licks. But, it seems you have made up your mind it won't work and I have to agree with several others maybe a Havanese is not the right family member for your family.

Havanese are very affectionate and companion babies. My baby is now 2 years old and wakes me and my husband every morning with tons of wet kisses and do you know what we love it? We love her so much and give her them right back. Kristy, if this grosses you out you are missing out on the best love a puppy can give you! Kohana sleeps right on my pillow everynight between me and my husband and we love her to pieces. I can bet all of the Hav families on this forum feel the same way as we do and that is why this is so sad, because we see Puppy coming around. Kristy, please do everything in your power to get the owners of her to give her over to HRI or one of the forum members that have offered to fly her to their home. You've come this far with her and we all want to see a happy ending for "Puppy".


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

Kristy,
I think the forum members have tried to voice their support and concern here and have not meant anything negative toward you personally. We are all thinking of you, your family, and yes, Puppy. We love Havs, that's why we're here! We understand Hav behavior and traits, they're not like other breeds necessarily. It seems to me that some of the members are trying to point out these characteristics and why they might mean that a Havanese might not be the perfect match for you and your family situation.

No one is saying you did a bad thing, or they're disappointed in YOU, or they're angry, actually quiet the opposite. Everyone here is trying to support you and help with the next step...finding the perfect forever home for Puppy. I think we all understand it's not your decision what happens next to Puppy, but if the owner trusted you enough to let you take Puppy in the first place, I bet you have a good chance of getting their ear and explaining why someone specificallly looking for a Havanese and/or prepared for the social issues Puppy brings along. 

Some years ago I bought a Golden puppy at a petshop. Yes, I feel horrible about that now, and have become active in putting an end to puppy mills and puppies being sold in pet shops. I thought I had thought things out and made the right decision but even after puppy classes, then private obediance classes and daily power walks, it just wasn't enough for that puppy. Now everyone in my midwest suburban neighborhood LOVED that puppy and I was a true villan when I got rid of him at 7 months of age. Trust me, I cried and cried and cried when the rescue people came for him, but it was the right decsion for me. All the neighbors said "oh I would have taken him!" but I made sure he went to a reputable rescue organization that would only give him to someone who knew what they were getting into and were prepared for everyting a Golden has to offer (getting to all table top surfaces, knocking over everything with thier tale, mouthing everything, needing hours of exercise every day to be happy) I can only imagine how a Golden Forum would have reacted to my story at that time! 

I guess what I'm trying to say is...we all try to do the best we can, for ourselves and our families, sometimes things don't work out and we have to change our minds. That's life. We are grateful for your help towards Puppy and we hope when you're ready for a dog of your own you find a perfect match for you, your husband and your kids. Right now, we hope Puppy has the chance to get to someone who would love to have her. She is absolutely adorable and it really does sound like she's making progress every day.

Happy Easter

Beverly


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

My son just turned 37 and I will never forget the day my DH brought home a puppy for him - a gorgeous purebred German Shepherd. My son was 2-1/2 at the time and I was 3 mos pregnant. We were living in a tiny apartment. Even though I protested, well who could resist that puppy breath. 

That's when I learned that 3 month old puppies and toddlers do not mix, and then add a pregnant woman to the mix. Just not good! They were playing and the dog nipped my son in the eye. I had to make a decision right then and we gave the pup back to it's owner. It broke everyone's heart. We even had my son's pictures taken with the pup, so it was hard. 

In life, you have to make hard choices some times. Kristy, I just hope you know we were trying to help you, not judge you.


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## JanB (Oct 26, 2007)

Kara, Well said and amen!

Kristy, I do think I warned you about bringing a puppy into your home when you were dealing with end of life issues with your elderly dog. Not a good mix even among the best of circumstances. Like Kara said Havs are much like toddlers and develop a strong bond with their owners, much more so than many other breeds. For most of us it hurts us to think of a Hav being hurt emotionally.

However what is done is done and I hope puppy finds someone to love her and she them in her next home. If it is not something you can do now then you are absolutely doing the right thing by giving her up. I know it's not your decision to make but to keep her and let her learn to love and bond with you, then move her to rescue...well, yes, it's better than being crated 20 hrs a day, but it still hurts many of our hearts to think of puppy hurt once again.

I also am firmly convinced her temperament will be fine. She is only 5 mo old! What you call her "horror of humans" is not an uncommon thing in the early days. Even at 8 months I see Tessa's personality continue to develop and she is much friendlier to strangers. It has nothing to do with her early (or lack of) socialization.

I do think it does everyone a disservice to stereotype dogs and to say all Havs are people and family friendly to all. From reading on the forum, many are more one person or two person dog and it has nothing to do with socialization, and more to do with personality. Dogs are individuals just as people are. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just the way it is. One of the friendliest dogs I've ever had was bought from a pet shop (before I knew better) at 4 1/2 mo of age. According to popular wisdom she should have had "issues" since many Shelties are known to be shy and timid. Yet she was a perfect family pet with a wonderful temperament.

Well, I could go on and on. You are doing the right thing. It's just an unfortunate situation on many levels.

P.S. Gosh, in rereading this it sounds like I was implying Tessa wasn't socialized well. Nothing could be further from the truth. She's from a great breeder and I wouldn't hesitate to get another puppy from her if the timing were right! Tessa is just very sensitive and we love her just as she is.


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## suzyfrtz (Nov 12, 2007)

Kristy, 

When you come back to us, I want you to know that I like many of us, have been caught up in the story of Puppy, and perhaps forgot about where you're coming from. I too have been a young mom. I had three little ones and was expecting a fourth, and we had a brittany who was an outside dog and not getting any attention...my husband worked long hours too, so (I can hardly write this) I took her to the animal shelter. There was no such thing as rescues in those days and not even a humane society where we lived. It hurts me to this day, but I did the best I could at the time. We're all rooting for you and for Puppy and I know that Puppy will go to a wonderful forever home. Thanks for hanging in there,

Suzy


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Kristy,
You are obviously stressed and unsure and that is understandable. I don't think anyone meant anything personal here,as it was interpreted. Your heart is in the right place. I hope you post on the forum again soon.

My offer still stands.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2008)

For those commenting on the Havanese not being the right breed for me due to her kisses grossing me out. As the Havs are loveable and show it. I want to clarify. My yorkie was a smoocher. I don't mind hand/arm licks, etc. but the toe thing is gross ( I was barefoot at the time). I don't let my husband touch them, I hate foot massages...leave me feet alone. That doesn't mean that the Hav personality isn't going to fit our family. She can find another body part to love with kisses...my feet are a no no. As for always being there and following to the bathroom, laundry, etc...my Miranda follows me everywhere she can. So I have had 16 years of knowing what that is like. I am quite aware of a 'loveable/companion' dog.

And this dog "puppy" that we have now is in no way characteristic of the breed. So comparing her at this moment to a happy socialized dog is like comparing apples and oranges....


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## Tritia (Nov 17, 2007)

Kristy, I get where you're coming from. The goings on about being velcro dogs, and following one around, etc. is what almost EVERY dog I've ever had has done. I thought it was normal dog behavior :biggrin1:
Eww to the toe licking, lol. I allow Cooper to give me kisses, when he occasionally decides he wants to be affectionate. Then sorry, I scrub my face. I know where that mouth has been..uke:


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## Judy A (Jan 13, 2007)

Phew, I've missed all of this somehow....hope you stay with us, Kristy....and I'm with you on the feet thing! Nobody touches my feet...even my wonderful Havanese companions!


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

You guys and your feet thing crack me up. One of my sisters has a huge foot aversion, so I know what you're talking about. I'm glad you guys aren't close to me, because I love to tease my sister with it too. I haven't gone so far as to give her a gift certificate for a pedicure, but it's crossed my mind.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

You think you have feet problems? --- My Hav-a-Niece (my SIL's Hav) likes to pull off my SIL's socks, which is a game in itself, and then proceeds to hump her feet!!! No kidding!


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

I thought massages were good until someone gave me a gift cert for reflexology. It was the greatest! If you don't want your dog to lick your feet, wear socks. :biggrin1:


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## Judy A (Jan 13, 2007)

You know, I had a session with a reflexologist......for some reason, that was ok! Actually, it was wonderful. A very deep massage that made my old arthritic feet feel pretty good. It's the light touch that drives me nuts! Tickle my feet and you're dead meat! And, with my beautiful bunions, I do keep my socks on!


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

My Mom has bunions...know what you mean. :biggrin1:


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I remember when we first brought Gryff home and he seemed so strange. He didn't want anything to do with us and would just hide out in his crate. He was so stand-offish and then the growling at my son started. I spent an entire day in tears because I thought the best thing to do was to give him back to the breeder.

Then I found this board and more than anybody else, it was Kara who convinced me that everything would work out.

Gryff still growls at Alec and he's still somewhat stand-offish. He seems like he has a bit of cat in him. He's not a big kisser and he hears what he wants to hear a lot of the time. But he loves to play with the entire family, he is funny and charming and I wouldn't trade him for anything.

If Kristy doesn't feel like she "wouldn't trade puppy for anything", then she is making the right decision. At six months old, I'm not worried for this dog at all. I just hope the owners will allow somebody on this board to have her so we will all know she is being well cared for and we can all monitor her progress.


As for feet - Gryff's favorite game in the whole world is to pull off socks. He has actually started to try and put them back on! It's so funny.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

How cute! I remember your early struggles with Gryff. It's amazing how much they can change over time. It was the same with Milo.


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## havanesebyha (Apr 25, 2007)

Kristy, I am sorry about the foot kisses comment! I understand and can relate as I hate to be tickled around my waist and now know what you meant. You have been Puppy's angel and I really admire you! :angel:


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Maybe something is wrong with your toes. My girlfriend who stayed last week was my good friend when I got Belle. She is very in love with Isabelle, she thinks Dora is cute but Isabelle is her "heart dog!" But Dora loves licking her toes. Dora has never licked my feet at all and I was even getting grossed out by it. Now Dora is the most kissing loving dog on my face in the world but apparently my toes don't need the cleaning hers did!

Amanda


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## JanB (Oct 26, 2007)

ivyagogo said:


> Then I found this board and more than anybody else, it was Kara who convinced me that everything would work out.


Me too. When Tessa was having adjustment issues Kara was one of the ones who encouraged me with sweet PMs. I remember at a low point I got one addressed "Baby Doll Tessa" that nearly brought tears to my eyes. She is a kind loving person who more than anything else loves this breed and all our dogs.


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

I always enjoy Kara's posts.
She has lots to offer and does it with humor.
I think she's a hoot!
Go Kara!


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