# Introducing the Crate ASAP



## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

I've been discussing this with some of you in my other thread, but I wanted to start a new one just to clarify....

Some of you know I've got Violet in an ex pen overnight per the breeder's recommendations. We are having mixed results so far, and she hasn't gotten the pee pad thing yet. Seems like when she wakes up to pee, she wakes me up too, even though she has a place to go. 

I was advised to introduce the crate gradually, not putting her in there overnight until she was at least 4 months (she's 3 months now), maybe 5 or 6 months, because she would not be able to hold it all night, and this was supposed to save me from getting up with her middle of the night and hopefully getting more sleep. Apparently another buyer tried crate training with Violet's littermate (though she brought her home 2 weeks earlier), that went poorly, and she had success with the ex pen.

Some of you are suggesting I put in her the crate overnight ASAP but my concern is that she has never had a chance to adapt to it, and I don't want to traumatize her and make her hate her crate by doing it too quickly. It just arrived yesterday, and I have tossed treats in there for her several times as well as fed her last 3 or 4 meals in it, but I haven't even put the door on yet or tried closing her in it. I introduced my yorkie to hers too quickly, she hated it from day one and it caused a lot of anxiety for her, so I'm concerned about creating a similar situation.

What about putting the crate inside her ex pen tonight, taking up her bed (which she is just starting to get used to sleeping in) and give her the opportunity to get used to being near it, able to go in it, without being locked in it? I don't think she will choose it right away, but you never know. I think she is still too small to climb on top of it and get out. It's a medium sized plastic vari-kennel which is technically too big for her right now, but the mat has large bumpers, which reduces the floor area several inches on all sides. She could still pee in it and curl up the other end, though. I could try stuffing a towel in the back. 

I'm wondering if it would be best to let her get used to the crate while she is still in the room with me, and then transitioning the crate to another room once she has gotten used to the confinement at night and I know she can hold it. 

I need to start getting some sleep at night, it's been a week with only a few hours a night (this started before I got her because I was traveling) and I'm about to lose it.


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## RikiDaisyDixie (Apr 15, 2008)

*My dogs weren't crated either...*

At 11 weeks, my dogs as puppies both were not crate trained. I trained them. Again, they slept in the crate right by me. It worked well. They fell asleep near me and as long as they could see me, they were okay. They sigh and sleep...


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Diane, I know what it's like not to get sleep for a while and it makes almost every waking moment stress-filled and unpleasant. Not fun. I would definitely make sure the crate isn't too big for Violet, whether it's by blocking off part of it at the back or however, otherwise, she will think it's o.k. to eliminate in there. 

Violet is probably getting mixed signals or information and not too sure what is going on. that's o.k. Not to worry as she and you will get synchronized eventually.  What I would do, based on past experience, is have the ex-pen near me in the bedroom, with paper/pads in there, her open crate as well, and when it's bedtime, that's it. Into the pen she goes, say some type of command you want her to associate with a pleasant bedtime, and lights out. I think a few "sshhh... go to sleep" or "shttt" is fine, but stay in bed and keep her in her pen. 

If you've taken the water up a few hours before, you've taken Violet to potty and she's done so once, twice or even 3 times, then she'll be good for the night. The WORST thing that will happen if you ignore her cries, is that she'll pee/poop somewhere in her ex-pen because she can't hold it. But that's o.k., because you have paper in there just for that reason! She may not land right on the paper, but if it IS o.k. for her to pee in there, then it's o.k. Violet will hit the paper one day soon. By making her den/crate small, she will hopefully figure out that it's more pleasant to sleep in there than to pee in there and then have to sleep out in the open. 

You've already assoc'd the crate with treats and meals, so that's good. Stay calm, know that you aren't messing her up (cuz you really aren't, it just seems like things are going wrong  ) and if you only get her out for a pee 4, 5 or 6 hrs. later, that's good. Get back to bed, put her back in the pen and repeat until it's really time to get up for the day.


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

Thanks so much for the replies! Ugh, I know, I am just so tired and probably sending her mixed signals. 

So Marj it sounds like putting the crate in her pen with door open to start is what you did. Did you eventually close the door? With it open, and the pen pulled out near the bed, it's pretty much the same setup I've done the last 4 nights, just with the crate instead of her soft bed. What she has done so far is elect to sleep as close as possible to wherever I am that she can see me, even if it means being right on the plastic coated mat up against the side of the pen rather than in her bed. If I so much as move, she's alert, and sometimes that will trigger the whining and yelping, which is what made me wonder if she'd fuss less if I wasn't right there.

What's interesting is that when I am working and she is right behind me, as long as I have my back to her and she cannot see my face, she doesn't fuss. It's when she CAN see my face, at night (from the side), even if I'm not looking directly at her, that's when she seems to fuss the most, and interestingly that's what my breeder was telling me she does with her dogs, no eye contact when she wants them to stay quiet but has to go in and out of the puppy room, and that they settle better with the door shut and no visual stimulus. It seems like crating in a separate room altogether has worked well for some people here, whereas others have better success when the puppies are right next to them at night. 

Trial and error with this one - I need to figure out what works for her, but we will try the crate tonight inside the ex pen, maybe by my bed, maybe around the corner. I doubt she will go in the crate at all if it means she can't see me. 

The fussing in the middle of the the night is something I'll just have to get through I guess. Getting woken up, it's very hard for me to get back to sleep, so I guess I'd hoped an ex pen would eliminate that, assuming she'd "go" on her own and have the decency not to wake me to tell me - lol! Duh.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Here are some others who have experienced similar situations:

http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=2395&highlight=bell+training

http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=195&highlight=hates+crate

http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=2151&highlight=hates+crate

Not sure if they'll help as I didn't reread them all, but .......


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

Thanks Marj, that helps a lot. That very first one sounds a lot like Violet, just a little older.


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Diane~ Here's a pic of the setup that worked well for us when Tori first came.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

LOL One thing babies (esp. the human kind!) don't have is "the decency to let us sleep"! Been there, done that..... lol

I dunno Diane, but I think that Violet needs to see you and be near you and, like with our babies, if you don't allow that for when she seems to need it most, at night, then it can go either way. She could either develop a "tough skin", independence, strength, etc... Or she could become nervous, needy and whiney. I think it really depends on how YOU want to raise her. Do you feel like you are giving in if she's right by your side? Do you feel like you're doing her a favor and that it's going to "spoil" her? Or do you feel deep down that if she's happy that she can see you, hear you, smell you, that she'll then be calm and peacefully fall asleep? I know that she seems to become alert every time she hears you during the night, but it's best to ignore her cries then, I would think. If you firmly believe that Violet needs to be in another room and that she'll just have to deal with it, then do that. 

It's NOT easy when your puppy seems demanding and is very vocal. Ricky was like that in the first days too, but what helps is when you know that you are doing what sits well with you, that you feel good about your technique, your decisions and you stick with them. You are not being cruel to Violet and she will turn out just fine. It just doesn't feel like that sometimes because you are SO tired and she's SO loud! lol

Thank you, Leslie, for sharing that picture! Great setup.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Sorry, Diane, I seem to be forgetting to post things so keep adding here....

you wrote: *"So Marj it sounds like putting the crate in her pen with door open to start is what you did. Did you eventually close the door?"*

NOT to confuse you ..... but no, I didn't even have an ex-pen! lol I would if we should ever get another puppy but didn't for Ricky. He was used to the crate from day one, because that's where I fed him. While I was home, I would either put him in the crate (door open) after he'd fall asleep in my lap or from day 2, he actually started going in there himself. I had his crate in the kitchen, which was gated and where we spent ALL our time.

*"What she has done so far is elect to sleep as close as possible to wherever I am that she can see me, even if it means being right on the plastic coated mat"*

Then I'd place her crate right up against my side so she can enjoy the crate. After all, it's the best place to get the best view of her momma.


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

thanks Marj. The crate I have is a plastic vari-kennel style, which my breeder recommended over a wire one because it's more like a den and her dogs prefer them. I don't have room to set it up in such a way so that she can see me while in the crate, if the crate is in the ex pen. 

My original plan was to leave the whole ex pen setup where it is now, out of view of my bed (I'm doing all this in the same room right now, sleeping on the futon on the other side of a half wall/doorway- my little office back here is an addition), but I think I will swing it around next to the bed like we have done the last 4 nights and maybe she will wander in there for part of the night if she gets uncomfortable right on the floor. Geez, baby steps, but I hope this works. It's cozy in there, I'd sleep in it if I could....right now I'd sleep just about anywhere.


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## mimismom (Feb 15, 2009)

You have had Violet almost a week now. Yay!! But really, it has not been that long and its going to be trial and error for a little bit until you figure out what works best for your lifestyle. I believe that you need to be consistent in your plan (whether crate or expen) and stick to it. All the suggestions everyone has offered has worked for them, some with immediate results and others with time and patience.

It took Mimi months before she went into her crate willingly. We started with keeping her in there 10 to 15 min and then gradually increased the time periods. We have now had her 6 months and she's more inclined to go in by herself. I think it took her a little longer than most dogs, but we had to keep it consistent and she received tons of praise. Our rule was to potty before going in to crate and immediately after getting out. We did try to give her run of the house after we THOUGHT she was trained but it resulted in accidents. So back again to the crate. Now she knows to go in there to take naps and to get her kong if she wants to play with it. She also goes in without a fuss when I leave for work. We did not want to have an ex-pen due to size of our house and carpet areas, but she has a yard for playing and running and the house when we are home.

I suppose I wanted to share my story because I think you are going about this the right way in figuring out the best for you and her. Just be patient because it could take longer to be fully acclimated than you thought and that it does not mean she is difficult to train.

The link is a copy of the training tips that the rescue gave us and could help you as an additional resource if you wish. http://www.operationkindness.org/images/PDF/HOUSETRAINING_2004.pdf


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

Here's my opinion, I'd pull the crate out and put it next to my bed so she could see me. Put a t-shirt or something you've worn into the crate with her, put her in and say "night, night" (or whatever you tell her at night), and close the crate. If she stirs at night either ignore her or tell her "quiet" and that's all. She may cry, or even have an accident, but that's not the end of the world. Have an extra towel or blanket handy so if she does go you can switch to a dry one quickly. Scooter had accidents in the crate but we did it so wrong with him!!! We took him out during the night for the first few weeks. Murphy has never had an accident and even went into his crate to sleep yesterday when all the bedding was out! He was lying on the plastic with no blanket because I was washing it all. He likes the crate, Scooter tolerates it. I'd do my best to get her used to it now just to make it easier later.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

The first night any of our puppies spend away from their littermates is in a crate in our bedroom where they can see us until we turn the lights out. It takes anywhere from 0 to 15 minutes for them to settle down to start with. After the first night it's almost always immediately.

Again, the most important thing is that they pick up no anxiety from you, no sympathy, no reaction to wimpering, no baby talk, and very little if any other talk. When in doubt don't say anything. At most just turn over in bed and russle the covers so they remember you're there. It's just a matter of fact the way it's going to be. As soon as they understand this they are fine.

They learn quickly like this and in no time look forward to getting in their crate at night when it's time for bed.

When they wake up they need to go potty when they are small. Use a towel if you think it's necessary to carry the pup to the box. Again, all business, no partying, no baby talk, until after the deed is done. If they have to get up in the night, all business, all quiet, no partying, and back to bed.


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## marb42 (Oct 19, 2008)

Diane,

I'm sorry you're having such a rough time, and I hope you got a little sleep last night. I agree with everyone about the crate. I think she can learn to love it and will get used to it quickly. I would put it level to your bed so she can see you and follow all of Tom's, Ann's etc great advice. Give her a small treat in her crate and say something like "go to bed". My dog runs in circles and whines to get in his crate when I say "go to bed" now (can't wait for that treat), but he cried just like Violet for the first week (on and off through the night). Do you have any earphones or earplugs you could use to block the noise until she stops crying? Don't worry, she will settle down.:hug:
Gina


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## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

I know just because I had great success with our nighttime crating could result in a totally different experience for you. The two pups, their very first night home they went in their crate very close by me. Evye whimpered a few seconds...and I mean seconds. I put my fingers in the crate and said "shhh". Right to sleep until 2:30, potty on a pee pad, right back to bed until we woke up. I brought her to a pee pad, the only conversation was "go potty now." I did the exact same thing with Bentley except he never even whimpered the first night. Woke up during the night for a potty once. Within 2 weeks both were sleeping through the night. This may not work for you but it might be worth a try...door on the create, closed, near you....put her in, tell her her nighttime command and you get some sleep. Violet should be able to hold her urine all night...but if not, she will most likely let you know HOURS after she went down. Potty and back to bed. If she pees in her crate, you can wash her blanket in the morning after you have had a good night's sleep. It may be a total failure or complete success...or somewhere in the middle...but you could use a good night's sleep.


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

Thanks you guys. I put the crate in the pen next to my bed - which is a low bed and she can pretty much see me - and I actually saw her go in it, while she sort of kept an eye on me either through the vented area in the side of it, or later with her head hanging out a bit. I couldn't believe it. I think she slept in there most of the night, but woke me up crying early this morning. Since the night before when this happened I didn't take her out and woke up to a puddle not on the pee pad, I decided even though there were more pee pads in the pen to go ahead and take her out - just like you said Tom, all business, but she was of course ready to play and not happy about going back in the pen when we came inside. In the near future I will shut the door on the crate, but this morning I didn't, and she chewed up a pee pad and "killed" her squeaky toys, so there was not much more sleep for me after that potty trip. More whining about an hour later, but I she did settle for a little bit. 

I think today I will try keeping the crate in the pen and closing the door to it for a few minutes each time, next to me here while I'm working and try to do this gradually. I don't want to ruin the crate experience for her. I want to transition to the crate completely at night as soon as I think she can hold her pee. Actually I think she can now, and I'm not sure the whining in the morning means I absolutely have to get her out right then, I think it's more like she could hold it, but she wants to play and be close. Or maybe a full bladder wakes her up, I'm not sure, but either way if I'm getting up several hours before I want to and am taking her out anyway like I did this morning, we might as well transition to the crate as soon as she can be in there without going berzerk at the confinement. That's what we'll work on this weekend, getting used to having the door shut on it for periods of time.

My latest challenge is getting her to use the correct spot in the yard for potty. We had this fantastic gravel area built for that at no small expense, and she'll consent to pee there (though not choose it on her own), but prefers to run around and mark the lawn, and the past 2 days I have not been able to get her to poop on it, I have spent hours standing there, many trips. She holds it and then poops during a play session outside (I learned fast not to let her loose in the house when I knew she was holding one) either on the grass or the driveway. Gravel is not her preferred surface for pooping, apparently, and we have such a small yard with veggies toward the back, I wanted a clean RLH area. 

I am not treating for potty success, but I"m thinking of doing that just for poops on the gravel and see if that works.


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## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

Again, I think Tom nails it. And I'm glad you had some success last night with the crate. They really like being inside their little den. . . .

I know everyone says to have the crate in your room, but my dogs have never fussed at night downstairs, after the first two nights, and that was just a little bit. Both were 13 weeks old. They LOVE those crates. I dont' let them in their crates during the day, so it feels like a real treat to go to bed. IF you get desperate for sleep, give it a whirl. I do think puppy/person keep each other up with their movements at night & the puppy may get sensitized to that and needy. 

I honestly think it's expecting too much to think she will always poop/pee in a designated gravel area. Maybe later, when she is trained to eliminate on command. I think you'll have to let go of that for now. . . .she's a puppy and barely knows what she's doing. Just be glad when she doesn't poop INSIDE. ;-)


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

Thanks Amy, you're right - in the big picture just pooping outside is great, I guess I've been focused on trying to be consistent with the potty thing, knowing where the particularly potty spot is, based on everything I had been reading about taking them to the same place. So far we've been hit or miss with the spot, it's been anywhere in our front yard, back yard, driveway, sidewalk, and once on our very first walk up the street, which was #3 poop this morning, I guess she was catching up after holding it all afternoon and evening yesterday. 

she is sleeping in the crate (inside the ex pen) right now and OMG, I just shut the door and she didn't even move. I can't believe that didn't wake her up. Darn, wish I had a treat right here to give her when she wakes up and realizes so I can reward her for being quiet in there. I was keeping them in my pocket but she would always smell them and I couldn't get her to focus then - lol!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

We have never used treats for anything to do with the crate. Learning to be calm without anxiety is reward enough. In fact we only use treats when training tricks. It can be confusing to the dog to get a treat without knowing what it's for. They don't understand that they got the treat for staying calm in the crate. They only recognize that they got it when they come out of the crate. It's fine to give affection after they have been and are being good.

Praise is reward enough for success at pottying. They understand it maybe even better than getting a treat if your timing is spot on.

One of the most important points of any training is the IGNORE. These dogs are very intelligent and sometimes they just need a bit of quiet time with us nearby to figure things out.


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

Well, I'm glad to hear Tom's advice on treating/crate. I never did this with either of mine in the beginning. Of course, the breeders had them fairly used to the crate wen we got them.

Now, sometimes I throw them a stuffed kong in the crate, when we have guests and I want them to be quiet when the guests come into the house.

Never did succeed in having them sit nicely for a treat when someone comes, so when necessary, I manage the behavior when certain peole don't want to be jumped on. lol

But they definitely view the crate as a place of comfort/safety. They try to hide there when they see the brushes and combs come out for grooming.

Cali jumps off the bed and runs into the crate the minute I turn the TV off at night. It's very funny, truly a conditioned response. Especially since Chico is allowed to sleep on the bed. DH thinks it's unfair, but I say one dog on the bed is enough and Cali doesn't seem to care.

Regarding treating for housebreaking, I never did that for my previous dogs, just used praise. I changed things a bit with Cali and used treats in the beginning and that really worked well for her. 

Now, I mainly use treats for tricks or behaviors I want to work on. Or just to make us all happy!


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## [email protected] (Dec 19, 2008)

I have crated my dogs for over 25 years without any problems. I don't mean that it was not difficult in the beginning, sometimes it was. But with time my dogs adapted and now spent much of their time in their opened crates. I did crate my dogs as soon as I got them. I know the literature says to have them adjust gradually but my big question was where were they going to sleep in the meantime. My bed was not an option. Now my 11 year old Chinese Crested power buff sleeps in our bed but my two 4 year old Tibetians continue to sleep in their crates during the night as does my 8 month old Havanese.

I had the most trouble with my Havanese. We did not get any sleep for the first 3 weeks. She cried the entire night and we took her out every 2 hours during 30 degree nights. We were so sleep deprived and I was almost ready to give her back. Finally, we placed her crate in our bedroom. The first night she slept until 6am. She was less than 3 months old. She has been sleeping through the night ever since. Her issue was not the crate but not being near us. 

When I do get up during the night I do make sure that I do not make any eye contact with her on the off chance she will want ot get up.

She is now 8 months old and goes into her crate occasionally on her own. My experience has been that as she gets a little older she will find her crate more of a refuge as my other dogs do.

My older dogs know intuitively when I am going out and go into their crates without any prompting from me.

Fortunately for me I do work from home and my dogs are not crated that often during the day making it easier for them to spend the night in their crates. In the past when I did work outside the home I did need to crate my dogs more but somehow they adjusted and also found refuge in their crates.

Just keep the faith and be consistent with whatever approach you decide to take.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Diane, good news! It's great to hear that Violet didn't seem to mind her crate today at all. Yaaaaaaaaay!! One day at a time, right?  Have yourselves a restful night!


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## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

Oh, that is great, Diane, that she is sleeping in the crate with the door closed. Bravo. 

Re where she poops, pretty soon she'll associate going in the same place(s) because of the odor. It will happen naturally.


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