# Building Confidence or just getting "mouthy"



## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

I've been working with Cody and Tess on basic obedience training. Tess is slow picking things up but just loves doing it. I'm not sure if she's slow because she doesn't get it or slow because she's deciding whether or not she's going to submit to what I'm asking. (I suspect the later.) For example, she's just not been willing to do "down." I'm now waiting for her to lay down on her own and then rewarding it (I'm doing clicker training.)

Since we've been doing the training, I'm seeing a marked improvement in her interaction with people and dogs. She's started initiating play with Cody and even played, a little bit, with a young pup at the dog park the other day. She's also started playing with toys for the first time. This is the same dog that a year ago I had to leave a leash on all of the time to catch her because she was so afraid of everything.

Over the last few days we've been working on sit & stay. She really doesn't like the "stay" part. The other day it took me a few seconds to realize the low little grrrrrrrr I was hearing was her. Today she started barking at me and then had her little butt in the air, jumping back & forth like a puppy ready to play. Being a puppy mill breeder she doesn't know how to play so I'm really excited to see this new confidence and desire to play and would like to encourage more of it.

My question.....how do I encourage the playful behavior and teach her to obey commands? (It's really hard not to laugh when she talks back, there's no need for words to translate what she wants....."GIVE ME ONE OF THOSE TREATS NOW!")


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Jill, that sounds so cute. I know what you mean, just showing a personality delights you! I'm not at all good with training so I don't have any real advise though. Hopefully some of our "resident" experts will chime in.
Carole


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

Thanks Carole.

For anyone with suggestions. Just so you know where I'm at with it....if I had to choose one or the other, I'd rather see Tess learn how to play than learn to "stay". I think she'll enjoy life a heck of a lot more knowing how to play.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Jill,
That is great! I will say Dora is my only dog that doesn't bark back. I have had friends outside the obedience ring count how many points I would lose for belle having fun! I would ignore it and try not to reward it. That includes smiles or laughs which is very hard to do! Work stays for short times and then increase. I do these often times during commercials etc. Then we go get the treats together. But sounds like the playing part is going great and often that is the hardest thing to teach.


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

Why do you use clicker training? What do you find superior about it?

It's getting time for me to get serious about traijing and so i'm looking around at optios,

Louise


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

louise said:


> Why do you use clicker training? What do you find superior about it?
> 
> It's getting time for me to get serious about traijing and so i'm looking around at optios,
> 
> Louise


Louise,

This is the first time I've really tried training a dog so I'm not sure I'm the best one to respond but I'll put in my two cents...

When I was trying to decide on a class I wasn't sure I wanted to use the clicker training. I chose the class only because it came highly recommended by a friend and the trainer allows you to come back for refresher courses as often as you want, at no additional charge. (Not because there's a problem with the class, but due to the lack of discipline (guilty as charged) on the dog owner's part.))

Having said that, I've really liked it. You use the clicker immediately as the dog does the desired task (sit, down, jump, etc.) and then the treat can come later. It doesn't take but a few tries and the dog immediately associates the clicker with a treat. (In fact, Cody was sleeping when the TV was on, there was a noise on the TV that sounded just like the clicker. Cody was up and sitting in front of me before he had the chance to wake up!)

I can click much faster than I can treat so it's been much easier to get the dogs to associate the sound of the clicker with the activity I want. They then know a treat will be coming.

Once the dog makes the connection of the command being used with the task, and after it's been reinforced sufficiently with the clicker, you can give the command and not need the clicker (or a treat) so the clicker isn't something you'll need to carry around with you forever.


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

Jill,
Maybe it is just in the females that talk back, because Missy does the "barking at me thing" just like she is telling me something, she is upset over, and Casper doesn't.

Missy also resist learning and doing the commands....but so did Casper. I think when teaching you just have be consistant in taking the time to teach them and they will learn it, they are smart.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Oh Jill, this is a wonderful thread. I went through similar with Jasper. I think it is a delicate situation. Because you really want her to enjoy her new found confidence. You just have to gently work through it. No reprimanding just party when she finally does the requested behavior. May want to even take advantage of her asking to play by making it a command so you can reward her for play... Tess, wanna play? when she get's in the bow say good play. 

I think if it makes you nervous or you just don't like it you can work on "quiet" to hush her low growl. just be sure to reward when she goes quiet. 

I love Tess for this. and I love you both for rescuing eachother.


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

I'm glad to hear others have had a pup who likes to "talk back". I've never tried to train a dog before these two and since Cody is so vocal at all other times and not at all when training, I was at a loss when that's the time Tess found her voice. 

Missy, I think it's a great idea to make "play" a command. That way I can reward that behavior but still work on getting her to respond to the other commands. Her growling didn't make me nervous, it's actually pretty funny. It's very low, very quiet, not at all threatening, just a very clear indication that she's not pleased with my performance! (Maybe I need to give her the clicker and some "Jill treats".)


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

you are on the right track with clicker training. If you want the best info on the topic, go to Karen Pryor's site. It comes down to ignoring inappropriate behhaviour and only rewarding correct. This type of training will definitely build confidence and playfulness. Keep the training sessions short ie. ten minutes at first . Always end on a positive note. Karen's kit is worth buying . It takes practice to click and train and you must have good timing or you will be rewarding the wrong behaviour. The reason the clicker is better than your voice is that it is more accurate at marking the precise moment of desired behaviour. And it elimates emotion on your part ,that can confuse the dog. Good going you are taking the right steps. Clicker training is the most effective method for training. It is used for training everything from Killer Whales to Gold Fish.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Jill in Mich said:


> Louis
> 
> Once the dog makes the connection of the command being used with the task, and after it's been reinforced sufficiently with the clicker, you can give the command and not need the clicker (or a treat) so the clicker isn't something you'll need to carry around with you forever.


That's right ,once the dog learns the behaviour the clicker and the treats are no longer needed. It is simply meant to teach. You have nailed it Jill. Have fun.


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

Old thread warning! This could of been Dexter talking back. I am so glad I am not the only one experiencing the talk back behavior. 

Why is it that Dexter will do a command right away and sometimes he talks back and have the last say?


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## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

We had clicker training as well. I have not used the clicker since training until yesterday when Evye has suddenly developed this "catch me if you can" annoying game for everything. If we get ready for a walk, when we go to bed, when I grab the comb to comb her, if we walk room to room. Everything is a game and it's not fun IMO. She grabs a toy and RLH. We spent the last 2 days, clicking/treating.....if she drops her toy and cooperates. Bentley and I were actually out the door for our walk before she realized I meant it. She is definitely a "last word" kind of gal. Soooooo, I am trying "you can have your say, but not your way." Grrrrrr !!! It worked for my kids.


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## Tracy Woo (Jan 16, 2009)

*back talk*

Wow! I did not know this was common among Havanese. My Moby "talks back" when she doesn't like what I am asking her to do. She barks at me and lunges and wags her tail but I am quite sure it is a teenager talking back and I won't let her do it. Then she goes crazy running figure 8's in the house and bounces off the walls. Then I know it is time for a good long walk. 
PS. This is the only time she ever barks.


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

But................They are so cute! We are trying to break the barking when we ask Dexter what to do. He still grumbles and talks back sometimes.


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## triona (Dec 22, 2008)

HI Jill,

This may just be a quirky Bess thing but for what it is worth. When i am training my pups, Snugs will respond no matter where we are but Bess likes to be on a soft surface. Grass, sand, dirt or rugs only please! She doesn't want to sit, stand or lie on stone, wood etc... I have to insist. Go figure???

Triona


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Dash has a speak command and a speak signal and sometimes when we are waiting our turn in agility to get his concentration off other dogs we do our tricks. My instructor has been trying to build Dasher's confidence on the teeter as he has been not as confident with it and now he kind of plays on it and so she wanted me to have him speak as the teeter was going down. She said a simple trick like that has to show the dog is confident enough to forget about what they are doing at the time and concentrate on the trick. So dogs who bark running agility courses (think of the shelties and BC's) are uber confident which is usually true. So maybe chalk it up to your guys like obedience and are confident and having fun!

P.S. Although if you are ever thinking of doing rally or obedience competitively, each bark is one point  With my white monster I would count them when she was having a really good time!


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

Tracy Woo said:


> Wow! I did not know this was common among Havanese. My Moby "talks back" when she doesn't like what I am asking her to do. She barks at me and lunges and wags her tail but I am quite sure it is a teenager talking back and I won't let her do it. Then she goes crazy running figure 8's in the house and bounces off the walls. Then I know it is time for a good long walk.
> PS. This is the only time she ever barks.


welcome Tracy Woo and Moby - we need pics of little Moby ! :cheer2:


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

triona said:


> HI Jill,
> 
> This may just be a quirky Bess thing but for what it is worth. When i am training my pups, Snugs will respond no matter where we are but Bess likes to be on a soft surface. Grass, sand, dirt or rugs only please! She doesn't want to sit, stand or lie on stone, wood etc... I have to insist. Go figure???
> 
> Triona


Yep, Tess is like that also. We were struggling in the obedience class with down until I put a blanket down for the princess. I got the look that said "Well it's about time! Do you know what nasty things are on that floor?! And you wanted me to lay down on it??? I don't think so!!!"


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