# Reward Feeding Amount



## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

I have a question for those of you who attend regular training classes or do regular training sessions for your pups. Timmy and I have been going to classes for what seems like forever but now I have questions about how much or what I should use for food rewards. Our classes are an hour and I have to say he goes through a lot of treats. I have changed his reward treats to poached chicken breast, 2% cheese sticks and Natural Balance (food in a tube that all the trainers use at our center). Our classes are in the morning so I don't give Tim breakfast, he's okay with that, we go for a walk and then leave for class. I don't have much choice but to give him treats, and I cut them into really small pieces but it seems like a lot. I feel like if he's eating all those treats I should make it his breakfast, right? Give him something relatively nutritious and have it count as breakfast? So yesterday we did this and he didn't eat dinner, I think he was still stuffed from the morning. :laugh: I really don't think he skipped dinner due to illness. He normally eats Primal Raw, which he loves, and I'm okay with substituting one meal a week to these rewards treats. He really loves going to class and I think it is in part to both gorging himself and seeing his classmates. Our training sessions during the week are short and sweet so we're not using anywhere near the amount of treats we use for our class. We also use toys for rewards when we train at home, which I can't really use at class, because the involve squeaky toys. I was just curious about how everyone else handles this aspect of training.


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## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

After attending our first puppy class yesterday, I have the same question/concern Jen has above. The treats used in class were tiny but it still seems like a lot at one time. I used boiled chicken, freeze-dried chicken and liver and some of his kibble. I know classes will be ongoing for us and I don't want to make him sick between the stimiulation of class and the volume of food. How do you and your Havs handle this?


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

In the classes I have taken, the trainers told us to try not to feed the munchkins before class or just half/quarter/little of their normal dinner. That way they are very attentive during class. 

Also, the different levels of treats have higher calorie levels than what we normally give them for meals so they don't need any more food. 

What you are doing goes along with what I was told.  We don't want pudgy Havs.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

It's really important to use LOTS of treats in the beginning (like for at least the first year!!!) when doing serious training with your dog. You are doing the right thing... use relatively nutritious treats, and factor those calories into what the dog's total intake is. 

Over time, you will find that you use less treats, as you fade the food rewards for mastered behaviors. Then you'll only be treating heavily for NEW behaviors, and occasionally to maintain learned behaviors. For instance, when your dog is learning to heel, you may be treating every 2-3 steps. Once they know how to heel well, you will only surprise them occasionally with a food reward for good heeling, or at the end of a pattern. But if you are JUST teaching recalls, you may be giving them a treat (or several) EVERY time they return to you promptly and straight.

You also want to develop play behaviors that your dog finds rewarding that do not entail squeaky toys. Some dogs LOVE playing a short game of tug, others like hand touches, some like to be encouraged to jump up beside you and touch your hand. 

You have to play it by ear as far as feeding before class is concerned. Some dogs, like Kodi, just WANT to work. A dog like that may well not need to have meals withheld. In fact, in Kodi's case, I found that he was less able to attend if he was too hungry. Then ALL his focus was on getting the treats, and not learning the concepts we were working on.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

good stuff Karen , Training treats , (all treats should be training orientated to a large extent)., should be part of their daily allotment ,not extra. The idea is to fade them once the behavior is learned and only periodically and intermittently reinforce with them, thereafter. Pretty hard for dogs to get fat from training treats. It almost always a case of overfeeding in general or giving the treats too often outside the training arena.


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## Atticus (May 17, 2011)

I have had this issue taking class with Atticus. All the dogs are big and can eat more than he can. He is not that food motivated anyway so after too much he won't work for food anyway. I tend to see class as training me, what to continue to do with him at home. So my goal is not necessarily for him to learn a behavior at class. I never train at home for a straight hour,it's ongoing mini sessions. I also often use a squeaky ball as a reward so I know what you mean. In class I usually just do fewer repetitions than the others. I will do the exercise but only five times vs 15 times. Unless the instructor is watching you to help you, don't have to keep at it. Not sure if that helps much!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Atticus said:


> I have had this issue taking class with Atticus. All the dogs are big and can eat more than he can. He is not that food motivated anyway so after too much he won't work for food anyway. I tend to see class as training me, what to continue to do with him at home. So my goal is not necessarily for him to learn a behavior at class. I never train at home for a straight hour,it's ongoing mini sessions. I also often use a squeaky ball as a reward so I know what you mean. In class I usually just do fewer repetitions than the others. I will do the exercise but only five times vs 15 times. Unless the instructor is watching you to help you, don't have to keep at it. Not sure if that helps much!


You've made two important points here, Jody. First, you are absolutely right that many smart dogs, even ones who are HIGHLY food motivated, don't benefit from too many reps of the same exercize. They just get bored. At our training facility, beyond puppy or beginner classes, most work is done off leash, so only one dog is working at a time, while the others wait in their crates. So we have short, targeted training of an exercize with direct teacher feedback, and then can watch how the other dog/handler teams handle the same exercise. (you can learn alot from watching too!) Because of this, the dogs don't get THAT much food, and, almost more inportant, don't suffer from "brain drain". When I take a private, we always break the work up with play sessions. Otherwise Kodi is cooked at the end of an hour. You can tell his little brain hurts!

Second is that training at home, especially with puppies, should be in VERY short segments. You can get a LOT done in 3-5 30 second to 1 minute training sessions per day. Even with an adult dog, I wouldn't do more than a minute or two on any one exercise, and CERTAINLY no more than 15 minutes total trainng at a time... And again, 5 minutes 3 times per day will be much more effective. The key is to leave the dog LOOKING for more. When you say, "Wanna do sme work?" they should come RUNNING in anticipation! Trainingshould be fun!!!


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

krandall said:


> Over time, you will find that you use less treats, as you fade the food rewards for mastered behaviors. Then you'll only be treating heavily for NEW behaviors, and occasionally to maintain learned behaviors.


I was wondering about that too. Timmy is great and has mastered many behaviors but if I cue him he looks at me like, "What's in it for me?" sometimes. :frusty: If we're doing recall he's great if there's a treat, but if not, he's not so great. I am working really hard to have both my hands showing when I cue him and getting him to learn if I don't have a treat in my hands when I ask he might still get one if he listens. I will say however that I am working really hard on loose leash walking during our walks, with treats but sometimes not, and he's improved immensely so I know there's light at the end of the tunnel. He's not a huge puller, but if he puts tension on the leash I tell him "walk" and he responds immediately. :biggrin1:

Do you use a clicker with Kodi? I started using one with Timmy for the past two class sessions. I like it a lot and it's much easier then saying a marker word every time he responds. I use it at home too, but not all the time if we're out back doing recalls or when we're out walking, do you think it's confusing for them to switch between clicker and marker words? I always say "Yes" when he responds correctly when I don't use/have my clicker. He seems okay with it, I guess it depends on the dog, especially since he started out with a marker word.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jabojenny said:


> I was wondering about that too. Timmy is great and has mastered many behaviors but if I cue him he looks at me like, "What's in it for me?" sometimes. :frusty: If we're doing recall he's great if there's a treat, but if not, he's not so great. I am working really hard to have both my hands showing when I cue him and getting him to learn if I don't have a treat in my hands when I ask he might still get one if he listens. I will say however that I am working really hard on loose leash walking during our walks, with treats but sometimes not, and he's improved immensely so I know there's light at the end of the tunnel. He's not a huge puller, but if he puts tension on the leash I tell him "walk" and he responds immediately. :biggrin1:


First thing I'd do is get the food out of your hands ALL the time. Keep it in a pocket or bait pouch that you can get into easily. You DON'T want him to think he only has to perform if there are treats in sight.

This is harder to do with loose leash walking, especially in the early stages, when you need to treat... A LOT. But even for this, try keeping the food in your right pocket (or the bait bag on the right) getting a small number in your right hand, transfer each piece to your left hand and reward with your left hand at your pant seam. That seems complicated, and sometimes it helps to practice this sequence a number of times without the dog. But if you can get this delivery system down, it reinforces proper position, and keeps the food out of your hand. If you are practicing loose leash walking with food in your hand, you are essentially luring, whether that is your intent or not. True learning of the concept doesn't really start until luring stops. Luring is good for getting the dog in the right position and building muscle memory, but after that, it quickly becomes a crutch.



jabojenny said:


> Do you use a clicker with Kodi? I started using one with Timmy for the past two class sessions. I like it a lot and it's much easier then saying a marker word every time he responds. I use it at home too, but not all the time if we're out back doing recalls or when we're out walking, do you think it's confusing for them to switch between clicker and marker words? I always say "Yes" when he responds correctly when I don't use/have my clicker. He seems okay with it, I guess it depends on the dog, especially since he started out with a marker word.


Yes I do use a clicker, but not all the time. I use it for capturing some behaviors, and for introducing new behaviors. Like right now, we are working on go-outs. And the method we ware using requires him to go out to a hula hoop on the floor, step in, turn around and sit. I used the clicker to shape this behavior, first having him interact with the hoop, then only clicking when all 4 feet were in the hoop, then when he turned toward me (this part actually comes naturally for most dogs, because they want to watch you again) and finally to turn and sit in the hoop. Now we are working on getting more distance on it, since eventually, he will need to run the length of the ring, turn and sit. After that, we will work on fading the hula hoop. (people do this different ways... by shifting from a hoop to a target, or actually cutting the hoop into smaller and smaller sections that the dog sits behind until it is finally all gone)

I also use the clicker sometimes for speed drills, to sharpen up sit/down response time and accuracy of when/where he drops. (you could use it for recalls too, if you had a slow dog... that's not a problem with Kodi... He's more likely to plow into me than come in too slowly ) To use it this way, (assuming you are SURE the dog knows the behavior REALLY well) you ONLY click the responses that are fast and accurate.

I do NOT use a clicker in general review work, in heeling (though you could when the dog was just learning heeling... the problem being that it's one more thing to manage), long stays or in agility work. The "click" should mean "end of exercise", so to use it in a situation where you want a sustained behavior or sequence of behaviors can be confusing to the dog.


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

Thanks for your advice. I do use a bait bag most of the time unless my jacket has pockets, then I end up washing dog treats! :laugh: I really need to work on my coordination, that's why I was hesitant to use a clicker because I thought, great one more thing in my hands. I think in some ways we've hit a wall in terms of him getting behaviors relatively quickly, but maturity perhaps is keeping him from performing them consistently and perhaps without food rewards. We'll keep working on them, I'm stubborn. Just to reference the article about training small dogs... Timmy's treats are SO SMALL, so he doesn't get a whole lot in terms of volume but does in terms of timing.

Good to hear you don't use a clicker all the time. I neglected to ask my trainer this time around about that. Next session we're going back to Advanced Manners, this past Dog Sport Fundamentals wasn't really a good fit for him at this point. This class had a lot of off leash stuff, which he was okay with, but I think he read that I was convinced he would run off, which of course he didn't.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jabojenny said:


> Thanks for your advice. I do use a bait bag most of the time unless my jacket has pockets, then I end up washing dog treats! :laugh: I really need to work on my coordination, that's why I was hesitant to use a clicker because I thought, great one more thing in my hands. I think in some ways we've hit a wall in terms of him getting behaviors relatively quickly, but maturity perhaps is keeping him from performing them consistently and perhaps without food rewards. We'll keep working on them, I'm stubborn. Just to reference the article about training small dogs... Timmy's treats are SO SMALL, so he doesn't get a whole lot in terms of volume but does in terms of timing.
> 
> Good to hear you don't use a clicker all the time. I neglected to ask my trainer this time around about that. Next session we're going back to Advanced Manners, this past Dog Sport Fundamentals wasn't really a good fit for him at this point. This class had a lot of off leash stuff, which he was okay with, but I think he read that I was convinced he would run off, which of course he didn't.


Yeah, I've washed a lot of treats too! I've found that cheese through the dryer glues your pocket together!

Timmy is still young, and every dog matures at a different rate. He'll get there!!!


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

Glad to hear I'm not the only one who washes treats. No cheese washed in my pockets yet thank goodness. Thanks again for your words of wisdom, it's nice to hear them from a fellow Havie parent. I've never had a dog before but feel these dogs are quite amazing... I'm not sure some of Tim's trainers can relate to working with small dogs, but I love the trainer we are working with for our next class, both Timmy and I really clicked with her. SO MUCH TO LEARN...


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