# Pet Insurance



## Bona (Sep 9, 2008)

I'm looking to buy pet insurance for my 2 Havanese dogs. We had couple of visits to ER in past 6 months which turned out to be over $4000. I think its the time for me to invest into insurance.

For those of you who have pet insurance, please let me know which company do you use and why?

Thanks,
Katya


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

I have ASPCA pet insurance, but am thinking of changing to Trupanion. Shelby had ACL and patella repair surgery in Feb. The bill was $2700.00. I got back $1500.00 from ASPCA. If I would have had Trupanion, I would have been reimbursed about $2300.00. 

Just make sure to research them thoroughly. They all have different deductibles and percentages of what they will reimburse. Trupanion covers everything. However, none of the companies cover a second ACL or patella repair. So as I said, do your homework and see which one fits your needs and budget.


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## mct (May 9, 2012)

I have been researching pet insurance as well. Take a look at the site:

http://www.petinsurancereview.com/dog.asp

It looks like Healthy Paws or Pet Plan has the most favorable reviews. Pet Plan seems the largest of the two. There were some pretty critical reviews of Trupanion from unhappy policy holders so make sure to read up before making a decision.

Does anyone here have experience with Healthy Paws or Pet Plan?


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## kristin08 (Oct 11, 2011)

I just recently got Healthy Paws. There actual office is local to me and they sounded good. A coworker also researched and ended up getting them as well. I have no experience with the claim process so far, but the quote online is really easy!


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

Thanks for the link to the insurance plan review site, mct, I have saved it and it will be really helpful in my search for an insurance plan. I don't have experience with any pet insurance. I clicked on the link for Pet Plan, because it was highly rated and seemed like a good price, but none of the plans were anywhere near $8.00 month -- more like mid and upper 20.s! I do not know where this site got its numbers. Be that as it may, I just did a very cursory search and will get back to it later. Maybe it's because he's so young so it costs more because of life span, I don't know how they work it. -- Eileen


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

I'm in Canada, and I went for Trupanion. I pay $58.something per month, and still have to pay all the basic expenses.

Never had vet insurance before, but I'm happy with Trupanion. I wasn't EXPECTING to need it, but I DID! Previously, I had a diabetic dog, and it would have helped tons to have insurance with Trupanion.

Camellia is a private rescue, aged 3.5 when I got her, 16 August 2010. On 25 October last year, she was diagnosed with atopic dermatitis - it's being expensive to manage - very expensive shampoo and spray, available here only from the vet, and lots and lots of antihistamines - almost constant.

Trupanion researched pre-existing conditions for Camellia, and the woman who sold her to me provided names of vets who had attended her - three differnt ones, I think. Trupanion doesn't cover pre-existing conditions.

I took the ZERO-deductible, which pays 90% of costs for eligible conditions.

Trupanion encouraged me to submit claims for the antihistamines, even though I get them at the pharmacy, not the vet's. They don't penalize for making claims - they told me it's not like car insurance.

And Camellia is covered for her lifetime. (Of course, assuming I keep up the premium payments!)

With my diabetic dog, Kumbi, I learned that expenses can pile up in the blink of an eye. And for some conditions, they become quite massive. There's no way I could save enough, even if I put those premiums in a savings account, to cover anything LIKE expenses that are so high.

So, for my sake and Camellia's, I pay the premiums happily.

Submitted claims are investigated quickly, and paid promptly. That's my experience with Trupanion, anyway.

Sat, 9 Jun 2012 18:29:07 (PDT)


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

We have VPI. It has already paid for itself 10 times over. Many say just put aside the money in an account, but I like knowing it is there for emergencies. 

Just months after we got it, Cash got critically ill. We never figured out what was truly wrong, but we had $3500 in vet bills. VPI reimbursed us $2300. 

We pay $45 a month for both boys and it just illness and emergency. And it is just 80% of customary costs... Where we live, most vets are quite a bit above customary costs. But it still helps.

I would ask your vet who they like and are acustomed too. I found that if the vets know how the insurance operated they code the dx for optimal re-imbursement.


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## Jplatthy (Jan 16, 2011)

Read carefully too because alot of them will not cover a preexistng condition.


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## KateR (Jun 11, 2012)

I have VPI, but they don't cover Bruno's hip dysplasia, because it's a preexisting condition. For that (and everything else they don't cover) I have "rainy day fund" and also a membership with a vet discount program called "Pet Assure" - this is besides my pet insurance - and they cover 25% of anything, even preexisting. With all these systems in place I've been managing!


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

Thanks for the insurance website. 2 quotes in my inbox already!


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## mct (May 9, 2012)

We are leaning towards Healthy Paws...

They do not have a limit on coverage payouts and they cover congenital and hereditary issues as well as hip displaysia. For $25/month, for 90% coverage and $200 annual deductible, seems reasonable.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Hmmmmm, got a quote from Healthy Paws. $250 ded, 80% - $42/mo.


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## mct (May 9, 2012)

irnfit said:


> Hmmmmm, got a quote from Healthy Paws. $250 ded, 80% - $42/mo.


How old is your pup? My quote was based on an 8 1/2 week old male puppy.


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## OscarsDad (Feb 29, 2012)

I think Healthy Paws (and all the others) are based on location as well as age. I got a quote for $250 deduct. / 90% of $31/mo. for an 8 month old neutered male. I'm in CT which has pretty high costs. All of the insurance companies employ highly compensated actuaries to pour through the data and develop pricing that's got a VERY high probability of earning them a profit. I'm guessing Long Island's data shows a higher incident rate, and higher vet bill costs vs. Florida.


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

Mine here in Canada for a 7 wk old puppy $250 ded/90%/ $34.50 through Trupanion


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## goiter6 (Mar 6, 2010)

I think this would be the way to evaluate it (using last post as an example):

(assuming 12 year lifespan)
$34.50 a month for 12 years is $4968.
Assuming you max the deductable each year, $250 * 12years + $4968/0.9 = $8520 in customary lifetime medical expenses.
So by buying insurance, you fix the medical expenses you pay for a pet that lives 12 years at $8520. 
Without insurance, anything above or below that number is out of pocket.

(note: same analysis using 15 years is $10,650).


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## goiter6 (Mar 6, 2010)

Thinking about it some more, I have two comments two what I posted before:
1. This assumes yearly deductable (versus incident deductable).
2. Instead of saying "fix the medical expenses", I should say "roughly set the expected medical expense". Obviously a dog that never goes to the vet would only cost the premium. Conversely a dog with an extremely large medical bill would cost more than that at the rate of 10 cents on the dollar.


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## OscarsDad (Feb 29, 2012)

goiter6 said:


> (assuming 12 year lifespan)
> $34.50 a month for 12 years is $4968.
> Assuming you max the deductable each year, $250 * 12years + $4968/0.9 = $8520 in customary lifetime medical expenses.
> So by buying insurance, you fix the medical expenses you pay for a pet that lives 12 years at $8520.
> Without insurance, anything above or below that number is out of pocket.


This isn't quite right. There's no reason to divide the premium by 0.9. The premium is the only fixed cost in the equation (well actually it's variable depending on the dog's lifespan, but your assumption takes care of that). All other expenses are variable. Even maxing the deductible each year (another assumption) only captures part of the equation. The insurance holder is still responsible for 10% of all incurred medical costs, and this is the wild card in the equation. Without incidence rates and cost data, there's no way to get a good estimation of expected out-of-pocket expenses.

One simplistic way to look at it is the $4968 premium. If you don't think there's a good probability that your dog will suffer a health issue (or multiple) that would cost more than $4968, then the insurance isn't a good bet. Really, that's what this is, a gamble, and just like at the casinos, the odds are stacked against you. The insurance companies are for-profit entities. They have highly compensated actuaries that have the data we are lacking on incidence rates and costs. You can be sure that in the above scenario, they know with 99% confidence that the average cost to them to insure that dog is less than $4968 (possibly not much less because they count on interest and deductibles, etc). If you want an even better estimation, run their premium calculations for no deductible and 100% coverage (if possible). This figure would represent the true 99% probability that their costs are lower.

The other way to look at it is this: The insurance companies are charging you a fee to amortize the medical expenses for your dog over it's lifetime. You can do this yourself by putting the same amount of money each month in a bank account. The danger here is that you incur an expense greater than what you've saved to that point, but the odds are that the at the end of the dog's life, you will be in a net positive position.

Not meaning to be cold here. I have a mathematics background and understand probability and statistics very well. Each person needs to make that decision for themselves if the peace-of-mind is worth it. Certainly a large medical expense for a pet can be burdensome, just as an unexpected death of a family member can cause significant financial strain on a family (hence life insurance). I've toyed with the idea and probably won't do it, but my situation is unique to me.


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## OscarsDad (Feb 29, 2012)

goiter6 said:


> Thinking about it some more, I have two comments two what I posted before:
> 1. This assumes yearly deductable (versus incident deductable).
> 2. Instead of saying "fix the medical expenses", I should say "roughly set the expected medical expense". Obviously a dog that never goes to the vet would only cost the premium. Conversely a dog with an extremely large medical bill would cost more than that at the rate of 10 cents on the dollar.


You posted before I could get my (long) reply up. Thanks for the clarification. The 0.9 factor is still off, but that's really trivial.

Incidentally, in my scenario above, I decided to try to get a rate quote for my dog at 100% coverage, and no deductible. The closest I could get was $50 deductible with 100% coverage, but an annual cap of $20000 in vet bills. This bumped my premium to $71/mo., from $31/mo. If I wanted to be 99% sure I'd end up with money in my pocket at the end of my dog's life, this is the amount I'd put aside in a bank account.


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## goiter6 (Mar 6, 2010)

I agree with most of what you wrote - especially that the insurance company actuaries know what they are doing.

Just to clarify what I was trying to do, I was more trying to calculate the break even point (and phrased it poorly). A dog with $710 a year for 12 years in medical expense is $8520 without medical insurance. Using the terms above, the same dog is 12*12*34.50 + (250 + (710-250)*0.1)*12 = $8520.


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## OscarsDad (Feb 29, 2012)

goiter6 said:


> I agree with most of what you wrote - especially that the insurance company actuaries know what they are doing.
> 
> Just to clarify what I was trying to do, I was more trying to calculate the break even point (and phrased it poorly). A dog with $710 a year for 12 years in medical expense is $8520 without medical insurance. Using the terms above, the same dog is 12*12*34.50 + (250 + (710-250)*0.1)*12 = $8520.


goiter6, that's another great way to look at it. That $710/yr is probably a good 20% higher than what the actual incidence rates and cost data would predict, yielding the insurance company a 20% margin. Hadn't thought of that. Thanks.


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

I think I'm leaning towards putting an amount away each month for Ted:amen:


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## Lisainidaho (Feb 1, 2012)

When I first got my puppies, this question was out here and someone said that they just increased their own savings account. I thought that was a good idea so that's what I did. You just never know - sometimes that will be more advantageous and sometimes the peace of mind of an insurance plan is worthwhile. Hopefully you will never need it!


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

Hopefully I won't. My last dog (Scottish Terrier) ended up with seizures and the valium for his bad episodes got a bit pricey. He was also my first dog that needed dental cleaning with is really expensive. He loved carrots and I'm thinking the sugar in them must have been causing some of the tartar build up, plus he wouldn't chew on anything....ever, excepting biscuit treats. I'm going to put $30 a month away for Ted instead of giving it to the insurance company. Hopefully we will never have to use it:brushteeth:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

lise said:


> Hopefully I won't. My last dog (Scottish Terrier) ended up with seizures and the valium for his bad episodes got a bit pricey. He was also my first dog that needed dental cleaning with is really expensive. He loved carrots and I'm thinking the sugar in them must have been causing some of the tartar build up, plus he wouldn't chew on anything....ever, excepting biscuit treats. I'm going to put $30 a month away for Ted instead of giving it to the insurance company. Hopefully we will never have to use it:brushteeth:


The BEST insurance against tooth problems is to get Ted used to having his teeth brushed early, and do it often! Just as with a baby, you can start with a piece of gauze or a ripped up piece of a wash cloth wrapped around your finger to get him used to it. Also make sure you use a yummy canine toothpaste. It is OK for them to swallow dog toothpaste, and even getting them to lick some off your finger helps by getting the enzymes in the toothpaste into their mouths. Then keep up the brushing... a minimum of 3 times per week, and his teeth should stay in good shape for a long time. (his breath will smell better too... gum disease and tooth decay are a main reason for bad breath in older dogs)


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## Lisainidaho (Feb 1, 2012)

Lise, this is off-topic but how teeny is Ted? He looks really small in your avatar! Very very cute, don't get me wrong, I'm just wondering how small he is and does he come from small dogs?


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

*Size*



Lisainidaho said:


> Lise, this is off-topic but how teeny is Ted? He looks really small in your avatar! Very very cute, don't get me wrong, I'm just wondering how small he is and does he come from small dogs?


He was 5 weeks in this photo. I dont get him til the end of June when he is 10 1/2 weeks old.He is small but he holds his own! His litter was a week early and his Mom is on the small side although his Dad is of average size.


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

It occurs to me that with pet insurance, the actuaries aren't taking risk group into account. They ask the breed, but I was thinking that dogs that go on whitewater trips and backcountry hikes, as well as dogs that eat unhealthy food and get no exercise, are skewing the statistics. Does that mean I can conclude that I can safely save _less_ than the average amount per/month for my dog, if I take good care of him and don't put him in dangerous situations? I don't know. I am leaning to just have a Dog Emergency Savings Account, and if anything drastic happens early on -- HOPEFULLY NOT -- use a credit card. I like the idea of the peace of mind the insurance would bring, but on the other hand, it would be nice to have that money to use if he stays healthy. Hmmm, still thinking about it. By the way... it is now only FOUR DAYS until I get Benjamin! :biggrin1:


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

How exciting...4 days til bliss!!


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

Lisainidaho said:


> Lise, this is off-topic but how teeny is Ted? He looks really small in your avatar! Very very cute, don't get me wrong, I'm just wondering how small he is and does he come from small dogs?


Looking at the photo, he really is larger than what he looks. I think its either the angle or a really big chair!:biggrin1:


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

"Dogs in this photo are larger than they appear". Ha ha. He has such a quizzical expression on his face, I wonder what he is thinking. Maybe, "hey, when are we gonna start having fun!" -- Eileen


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

*tiny dogs*



emichel said:


> "Dogs in this photo are larger than they appear". Ha ha. He has such a quizzical expression on his face, I wonder what he is thinking. Maybe, "hey, when are we gonna start having fun!" -- Eileen


Thats way too funny! I hope he is saying "Is my new Mommy coming soon?"
:wave::


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

mct said:


> How old is your pup? My quote was based on an 8 1/2 week old male puppy.


I guess that would explain it.Kodi is 6yrs old and we live on Long Island.


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## Lisainidaho (Feb 1, 2012)

LOL I just think it is the cutest picture. He looks very tiny but he has a big puppy expression in his quizzical look. I can't wait for you to get him home!


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## mct (May 9, 2012)

Here is my thinking... If I pay the $25 per month for 12 years - that comes to $3600 in premiums. Obviously, not taking deductibles into account, just the $3600 seems almost what some people are saying they paid for 1 single emergency. So worst case - it is almost a wash and best case, I might come out ahead. At least if someone happens that is a real big ticket item (cancer, etc.), at least the coverage is there.


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