# Breeder's House Smells of Urine



## <3belongstohavs

We have been searching for a good, reputable Havanese breeder in our general region of the country, and we're just not sure of what to make of one that we've met.

Are the total number of adult Havanese and puppies in a breeder's home and the general level of cleanliness in the breeder's home strong indicators of how good and reputable the breeder is? Should we be concerned about how well puppies are socialized under such circumstances and how accustomed a pup may get to such conditions?

This breeder has many dogs. The portions of the house seen (where the dogs frequented) were not very clean (IMO) and overall, the house smelled of urine (& dogs). On the other hand, this breeder's dogs are current and retired show dogs (most of which are champions). The breeder does all recommended health testing, and the test results are documented on OFA. The breeder is a member of the HCA, the AKC and an AKC breeder of merit. The breeder seems knowledgeable of the breed and generally respected by others in the dog breeding community.

Would any of you be able to weigh in on this? Please!


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## Sheri

This would turn _me_ off, absolutely. I think the dogs would be accustomed to urine in the house and be harder to housebreak. It's hard enough to housetrain them in the first place. I'd also question the breeders sense of wellbeing for the dogs, if the house smells and appears unclean.


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## TilliesMom

I agree with Sheri.
I have only been to 3 breeders homes and NONE of them smelled at all. Havs shouldn't have a smell to begin with! they had between 3 and 8 adult dogs and several puppies at the time I was visiting... so, I do not think there is any excuse for keeping dogs in a smelly, dirty enviroment. I would never get a pup from such an environment. BUT that is just me. It depends on how YOU felt with the environment AND the breeder...


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## krandall

I can only tell you that at my breeder's home, even though there are quite a few adult dogs plus Kodi and his litter mates, there was absolutely no doggy nor urine smell.

I think that level of uncleanliness would have been off-putting to me.


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## <3belongstohavs

I agree w/ all 3 of you! Thanks so much for responding. I guess we are trying to give the breeder the benefit of the doubt because of documented "credentials." She does everything that a "reputable" breeder is expected to do. And, then I rationalize by thinking that I have a very sensitive sense of smell and am quite a clean freak in general. But, my gut feeling is that I am a bit uneasy w/ this breeder.


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## heatherk

I agree with everybody else above. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable buying from somebody whose house was not kept at a decent level of cleanliness. Puppies at so young of an age that they are ready to be sold should be kept in a confined, x-pen sort of area that is easily cleaned (and let out occasionally of course but under total supervision, and cleaned up after), and adult dogs should certainly be house trained to not go in the house (and if they do go, it should be cleaned up immediately). If they are letting their weeks-old puppies run loose, or if they don't care enough about their older dogs to train them, clean up after them, and bathe them, well, I would doubt their ability to adequately care for any dog. Just my 2 cents...


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## heatherk

P.s. - health testing a dog takes only what, a couple of hours a year to accomplish? And they may have paid somebody to train their dogs to championships. Actually taking CARE of any dog, let alone a Havanese (or a bunch of them!) takes a LOT of time, as anybody here will tell you. Did you meet any of the dogs? What impression did you get from the dogs themselves? Were the adult dogs friendly? Groomed? Happy but trained? Were the puppies cautious but still curious and outgoing? I guess that would probably be my bottom line, given what you said above...


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## <3belongstohavs

We did meet sire & dam and would have opportunity to visit and interact w/ puppies in several more weeks once they are older. Breeder is very welcoming & accommodating. We're just not sure it would be worth our time, effort & gas money to make another trip.


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## Suzi

I was told that male's will mark when a female is in heat. Maybe one of their males went in some corner somewhere and the breeder has a bad nose.


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## motherslittlehelper

I would think it would be hard to judge without seeing it for ourselves. What some people consider perfectly acceptable, no doubt would not be to others and vice versa. If you are uncomfortable with the situation you observed, then it would probably be wise to look elsewhere. However, if you are totally satisfied with every other aspect of the situation – if you think her dogs are being well cared for and socialized, if they are clean and appear healthy, the fact that you would be able to visit again, the breeder is well regarded and knowledgeable, health tests, shows, etc – I would certainly give her the benefit of the doubt, especially after just one visit, unless the cleanliness issue is just totally unacceptable or unhealthy. Is she open to contact and available for questions after the puppy goes home? Do you know anyone else who has gotten a puppy from her that you could talk with? Is it possible the weather had been rainy and the older dogs messed up the floors going in and out? What is her flooring like? Possibly, as Suzi mentioned, her sense of smell isn’t very good? I know mine isn't as good as when I was younger. We have carpeting and I also have missed spots where 'someone' peed on it and I discovered it later. I think you just need to go with your gut.


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## <3belongstohavs

motherslittlehelper said:


> I would think it would be hard to judge without seeing it for ourselves. What some people consider perfectly acceptable, no doubt would not be to others and vice versa. If you are uncomfortable with the situation you observed, then it would probably be wise to look elsewhere. However, if you are totally satisfied with every other aspect of the situation - if you think her dogs are being well cared for and socialized, if they are clean and appear healthy, the fact that you would be able to visit again, the breeder is well regarded and knowledgeable, health tests, shows, etc - I would certainly give her the benefit of the doubt, especially after just one visit, unless the cleanliness issue is just totally unacceptable or unhealthy. Is she open to contact and available for questions after the puppy goes home? Do you know anyone else who has gotten a puppy from her that you could talk with? Is it possible the weather had been rainy and the older dogs messed up the floors going in and out? What is her flooring like? Possibly, as Suzi mentioned, her sense of smell isn't very good? I know mine isn't as good as when I was younger. We have carpeting and I also have missed spots where 'someone' peed on it and I discovered it later. I think you just need to go with your gut.


That is a very thoughtful response. Thank you!


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## <3belongstohavs

Thank you for all the responses so far. :thumb: We are trying to do our research as methodically as possible. It is not easy when adorable Havanese puppies are involved! Our children have the hardest time because they can hardly wait to have a puppy join the family, and each puppy is just as cute as can be, so who can blame 'em!?

Where have all of you gotten your Havanese dogs?


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## krandall

heatherk said:


> I agree with everybody else above. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable buying from somebody whose house was not kept at a decent level of cleanliness. Puppies at so young of an age that they are ready to be sold should be kept in a confined, x-pen sort of area that is easily cleaned (and let out occasionally of course but under total supervision, and cleaned up after), and adult dogs should certainly be house trained to not go in the house (and if they do go, it should be cleaned up immediately). If they are letting their weeks-old puppies run loose, or if they don't care enough about their older dogs to train them, clean up after them, and bathe them, well, I would doubt their ability to adequately care for any dog. Just my 2 cents...


Good breeders who are starting their puppies off well in terms of potty training shouldn't HAVE to clean up after their puppies often, even when they are playing in a larger area. I spent 2 days with my breeder, much of it on their (clean) living room floor. EVERY puppy ran to the litter box and used it as needed. When they were not being directly supervised (and most of their awake time they were) they were in the ex-pen with a litter box. I didn't see any mistakes there either, abut I'm sure, as you said, if there WERE mistakes, they were totally cleaned up immediately.

In fact, I know they are fanatical about washing all bedding regularly for this exact reason... they WANT the puppies to know that you don't eliminate in "clean" areas. If the whole house smells like urine, how do puppies learn the right and wrong places to go? Maybe some of the puppies that people have such a hard time training here on the forum come from establishments like this.


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## krandall

<3belongstohavs said:


> Thank you for all the responses so far. :thumb: We are trying to do our research as methodically as possible. It is not easy when adorable Havanese puppies are involved! Our children have the hardest time because they can hardly wait to have a puppy join the family, and each puppy is just as cute as can be, so who can blame 'em!?
> 
> Where have all of you gotten your Havanese dogs?


I didn't even CONSIDER bringing my kids along. It was hard enough for ME to be objective. And the only way my trainer friend agreed to go with me was if I PROMISED to walk away if she felt the puppy or the way it was raised were not right.

Kodi is a Starborn pup, but if you've been following Tom's thread on new puppies, you'll see that he already has a long waiting list, and there won't be any more pups until spring.


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## windfallhavs

I think you have to go with your gut. However, please also know that the urine smell of an intact male is MUCH stronger than you are probably used to, and you did mention the male did live there. If the male was loose in the house and had either recently marked or been out to potty, it is possible that is where the stronger urine smell came from. I can't say much about the cleanliness, as I don't have a kennel and there are times when my house looks like a bomb went off, and as mentioned earlier some of us have different standards of cleanliness, but in general I always tell people that if they feel uncomfortable with the breeder or the way the puppies are raised, it is better to keep looking.


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## Thumper

I would probably give the benefit of the doubt, maybe it was just an off day, or a cat box (?) I can always smell cat urine, even in a clean house. It has to be hard as a breeder with intact males wanting to mark, instinctively, I can't imagine having to chase around horny dogs doing what nature intended them to do, lol. So, IDK. While I don't like the smell of urine either, if the house was clean otherwise, I may let it slide if I was comfortable with the breeder and the health and happiness of the puppies. 

Kara


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## <3belongstohavs

Several of you have mentioned about intact males: that they have a stronger urine odor and that they may be marking because of female dogs in heat. I appreciate those insights because I had not considered those possibilities at all. The breeder does have a few (I believe 3) intact males in the house.

I was uncomfortable with the odor, having inherited my own Mom's sensitivity to smell! But, I think spending additional time with the breeder, the adult dogs and puppies would be helpful. We did not have much opportunity to really interact with the puppies at the visit since they were much too young. Maybe I should go to the next visit armed with a fragranced handkerchief for my nose. 

We will wait until the puppies are about 7-8 weeks old for the next visit. Any suggestions on what to look for at that next visit?


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## krandall

<3belongstohavs said:


> We will wait until the puppies are about 7-8 weeks old for the next visit. Any suggestions on what to look for at that next visit?


I'll tell you what I looked for in the environment...

* That the puppies were well on the way to being potty trained by that age. (should be regularly using a litter box, pee pad or other potty system in a supervised setting AND on their own in their ex-pen)

* That the puppies grow up being socialized in the midst of the hustle and bustle of family life, not tucked away in a kennel situation (no matter how clean and well cared for that kennel might be) and only brought out for short periods of time or to show to prospective buyers. Puppies need to be exposed to all kinds of sights, sounds, smells and experiences so that they are not timid about them later in life.

* That the puppies are given a good-sized enriched environment to explore and develop in, both mentally and physically, with things to climb over, under and through, balls and squeaky toys to chase, different floor textures to walk on...

* That the puppies have been regularly given opportunities to socialize with people of all ages, including (especially) well supervised young children.

* That the puppies have had opportunities to socialize with other dogs. (that's probably a given in a multi-dog household like you are considering)

* That the breeder has started getting them used to a crate or soft-sided carrier before they go home. (that will make separation from their "family" SO much easier for them AND for you!)

* A big bonus is if the breeder has given them some experience riding in the car.

* I'd also want a breeder who will answer ALL my questions, no question too small or too silly, and who is willing to be there for me as a resource as my puppy grows. This might not be something you can find out from the breeder themselves (we've heard many times on the forum about breeders who are SO helpful before a puppy is sold, and won't even return a phone call or e-mail after) so you may want to ask for some references of previous satisfied puppy buyers. Call them and ask what their relationship is AFTER bringing the puppy home.

In the puppy, I want to see a puppy who is...

* Bright and eager to play, both with its siblings and with people. (taking into consideration that young puppies tire quickly, and a puppy who seems "dull" at one point int time, could just be sleepy - interact with them more than once, or over a long period of time if at all possible)

* For MY purposes (sports) I want a puppy with a strong play drive. But if you want a snuggle bunny and don't care about sports, this may be less important to you)

* Again, my personal choice is for a puppy somewhere in the middle of the pecking order... neither the "top dog" nor the "wall flower". However, I'd take the "top dog" over the timid wall flower any day. I would have a hard time dealing with a fearful, timid dog who had problems with separation anxiety... I travel too much.

* No matter whether I wanted a high drive dog for sports or a low drive dog for pet therapy and couch cuddling, I'd want a puppy who was specifically drawn to me, and would leave off playing with the other puppies to come visit when you call "pup, pup, pup". It's OK for them to quickly wander away again, puppies have a fleeting attention span. But I want a really people oriented dog - they are easier to train, no matter what their final purpose in life is.

YMMV, but this is what I was looking for when I found Kodi. And that's what I got.


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## jillnors2

I would worry about the pup's socialization. If the breeder has a large number of dogs -I would worry that the litter may not be socialized as much as a breeder who may have more time to devote to the pups.

Were the dam and sire friendly and happy when you met them?


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## pjewel

I look at all these responses and have to think how different I must be. I am a strong believer in gut reaction and every dog I've gotten in my life (and there have been many), was brought into my life and my home with an absolute belief that things would work out . . . as long as I was truly listening to that inner voice.

The above having been said, before I got my first Havanese (Milo) I did a lot of research online. I almost made a huge mistake with an online breeder whose website and puppies looked so good, at least based upon my very limited knowledge at that time. After walking away from a sable female I fell in love with, I was skittish for months. Then I found the forum. I got the best advice here and when Milo appeared on my radar screen, I jumped on the opportunity. Funny thing is, he was nothing I was looking for. I wanted a young puppy, a female and a sable. He was 5 1/2 months when he came to me and of course he was a boy and a tri colored irish pied. Did I ever regret my decision? Not for a moment . . . even when he turned my remaining hairs to gray.

In the end, I was so happy with him that I wound up getting two more within the next few years. You'll know when the moment is right. There will be a puppy with your name written on his/her heart. For now, enjoy the process.

As for the urine smell, I have to agree with Linda and Diane. Give her the benefit of the doubt. We don't know all the circumstances, and it's true that we all have different standards of cleanliness. See what your next visit tells you.


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## Becky Chittenden

I have a very limited sense of smell. My boys mark when the girls are in season. I try to remember to keep belly bands on them at these times, but sometimes all are in the washer and accidents happen. Also, puppies do have accidents also. Sometimes you miss the accidents and I guess they smell alot. I'm not defending the breeder, but perhaps she/he has limited olfactory function and doesn't notice this.
I agree with the general comments mentioned above. Mostly about the puppies and dogs being clean and well socialized. I also agree with the comments that if you are uncomfortable with the breeder, walk away and find another with whom you are comfortable.


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## Tom King

I think you will find the lack of training, and living with the smell the majority rather than the exception. I also have a very sensitive nose, and when we were looking for our first one, I couldn't believe some of the conditions, even with breeders who had dogs living in their house. With some it would hit you in the face when they opened the door.

Heck, I've even visited other breeders at shows in their hotel rooms and their hotel room reeked.

Having stud dogs may be an excuse, but it's not a reason. We've always had intact males living here.


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## <3belongstohavs

krandall said:


> I'll tell you what I looked for in the environment...
> 
> * That the puppies were well on the way to being potty trained by that age. (should be regularly using a litter box, pee pad or other potty system in a supervised setting AND on their own in their ex-pen)
> 
> * That the puppies grow up being socialized in the midst of the hustle and bustle of family life, not tucked away in a kennel situation (no matter how clean and well cared for that kennel might be) and only brought out for short periods of time or to show to prospective buyers. Puppies need to be exposed to all kinds of sights, sounds, smells and experiences so that they are not timid about them later in life.
> 
> * That the puppies are given a good-sized enriched environment to explore and develop in, both mentally and physically, with things to climb over, under and through, balls and squeaky toys to chase, different floor textures to walk on...
> 
> * That the puppies have been regularly given opportunities to socialize with people of all ages, including (especially) well supervised young children.
> 
> * That the puppies have had opportunities to socialize with other dogs. (that's probably a given in a multi-dog household like you are considering)
> 
> * That the breeder has started getting them used to a crate or soft-sided carrier before they go home. (that will make separation from their "family" SO much easier for them AND for you!)
> 
> * A big bonus is if the breeder has given them some experience riding in the car.
> 
> * I'd also want a breeder who will answer ALL my questions, no question too small or too silly, and who is willing to be there for me as a resource as my puppy grows. This might not be something you can find out from the breeder themselves (we've heard many times on the forum about breeders who are SO helpful before a puppy is sold, and won't even return a phone call or e-mail after) so you may want to ask for some references of previous satisfied puppy buyers. Call them and ask what their relationship is AFTER bringing the puppy home.
> 
> In the puppy, I want to see a puppy who is...
> 
> * Bright and eager to play, both with its siblings and with people. (taking into consideration that young puppies tire quickly, and a puppy who seems "dull" at one point int time, could just be sleepy - interact with them more than once, or over a long period of time if at all possible)
> 
> * For MY purposes (sports) I want a puppy with a strong play drive. But if you want a snuggle bunny and don't care about sports, this may be less important to you)
> 
> * Again, my personal choice is for a puppy somewhere in the middle of the pecking order... neither the "top dog" nor the "wall flower". However, I'd take the "top dog" over the timid wall flower any day. I would have a hard time dealing with a fearful, timid dog who had problems with separation anxiety... I travel too much.
> 
> * No matter whether I wanted a high drive dog for sports or a low drive dog for pet therapy and couch cuddling, I'd want a puppy who was specifically drawn to me, and would leave off playing with the other puppies to come visit when you call "pup, pup, pup". It's OK for them to quickly wander away again, puppies have a fleeting attention span. But I want a really people oriented dog - they are easier to train, no matter what their final purpose in life is.
> 
> YMMV, but this is what I was looking for when I found Kodi. And that's what I got.


Thanks so much, Karen! I've thought of some of these same considerations, but have only had them in my own head (on a mental checklist of sorts). It's good to see them written out.


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## <3belongstohavs

jillnors2 said:


> I would worry about the pup's socialization. If the breeder has a large number of dogs -I would worry that the litter may not be socialized as much as a breeder who may have more time to devote to the pups.
> 
> Were the dam and sire friendly and happy when you met them?


Yes, that is what I worry about! Socialization is the No. 1 thing that we'll be checking out the next visit.

The dam and sire were fine. I don't remember any of the breeder's adult dogs acting fearful or skittish. They all were quite calm and well-behaved.


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## <3belongstohavs

Tom King said:


> I think you will find the lack of training, and living with the smell the majority rather than the exception. I also have a very sensitive nose, and when we were looking for our first one, I couldn't believe some of the conditions, even with breeders who had dogs living in their house. With some it would hit you in the face when they opened the door.
> 
> Heck, I've even visited other breeders at shows in their hotel rooms and their hotel room reeked.
> 
> Having stud dogs may be an excuse, but it's not a reason. We've always had intact males living here.


Ah, it's a tough road for us sensitive nose people! 

Tom, I will be on the lookout for what sort of potty training this breeder incorporates into the pups' daily lives. Do you think that puppies that spend the first 10-12 weeks of their lives in a home with urine odor all around them are harder to housetrain?


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## <3belongstohavs

WOW! And a big THANK YOU to all of you who have responded! I am so glad that I posted my concerns on this forum and received such sincere and thoughtful advice. Keep it coming please! 

For now, it will be hard to wait until the puppies are 7-8 weeks old for the next visit ...


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## krandall

<3belongstohavs said:


> Yes, that is what I worry about! Socialization is the No. 1 thing that we'll be checking out the next visit.
> 
> The dam and sire were fine. I don't remember any of the breeder's adult dogs acting fearful or skittish. They all were quite calm and well-behaved.


That's a very good sign. I remember being charmed by how sweet all Kodi's adult relatives were when I visited.


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## morriscsps

I don't remember any odor at Jack's breeder's home, except for the pile of cloth wee-pads waiting to go into the washer. I think there were 6 adult dogs and 6 puppies. The breeder was worried because Mama wasn't as groomed as she should be. I guess it is difficult to try to groom while battling off 6 energetic pups. The rest of the dogs looked nice and clean.


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## krandall

morriscsps said:


> I don't remember any odor at Jack's breeder's home, except for the pile of cloth wee-pads waiting to go into the washer. I think there were 6 adult dogs and 6 puppies. The breeder was worried because Mama wasn't as groomed as she should be. I guess it is difficult to try to groom while battling off 6 energetic pups. The rest of the dogs looked nice and clean.


I wouldn't look well groomed with six kids either... heck, there were days that I don't think I made it to "well groomed" with two!ound:


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## jillnors2

> The dam and sire were fine. I don't remember any of the breeder's adult dogs acting fearful or skittish. They all were quite calm and well-behaved.


This is great and would mean a lot to me. I was lucky, my Breeder only had 2 Havanese at the time and the house was immaculate but I visited a Coton breeder around the same time since she was local and she had 12 dogs and the dogs were VERY skittish and the pups anti social so that was a no go.


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