# Sugarbaby's Pigment



## LeighaMason (Dec 16, 2010)

Sugarbaby is 9 weeks old now. I am wondering about her eye rim pigments. Around her eyes are flesh colored which I see a lot on chocolate dogs but I am wondering will her eye rims get more brown on them or does she just have poor pigmentation.

For the record, she is my pet first and couldn't be a more perfect match for me personality wise, but if she could, I would like to show her but I am not sure if the eye rims would disqualify her. What is your opinion? Don't worry about hurting my feelings, she was not sold to me as "show quality", I think she is just beautiful whether she has show potential or not.

Here is the best picture I have been able to get of her eyes.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

hmmmm, not sure, but she sure looks like a Chocolate Hav to me... can't really see the pink eye pigmentation....?
CONGRATULATIONS, she is BEAUTIFUL!!!! welcome to the forum!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

LeighaMason said:


> Sugarbaby is 9 weeks old now. I am wondering about her eye rim pigments. Around her eyes are flesh colored which I see a lot on chocolate dogs but I am wondering will her eye rims get more brown on them or does she just have poor pigmentation.
> 
> For the record, she is my pet first and couldn't be a more perfect match for me personality wise, but if she could, I would like to show her but I am not sure if the eye rims would disqualify her. What is your opinion? Don't worry about hurting my feelings, she was not sold to me as "show quality", I think she is just beautiful whether she has show potential or not.
> 
> ...


Did you talk to your breeder about it? A good breeder should be able to tell you. I really don't know anything about chocolates. I know a black pigmented dog would have all it's eye rim and nose and lip pigment by that age. Here's what the standard says:

The pigment on the eyerims is complete, solid black for all colors except for the chocolate dog which has complete solid, dark chocolate brown pigment​
Disqualification: Complete absence of black (or chocolate in the chocolate dog) pigmentation on the eyerims, nose or lips.​
Also, do you have full AKC registration on her or limited? If limited, you can't show her in conformation classes no matter how perfect she is (or isn't). Of course, there are all the (IMO, more fun:biggrin1 performance classes you can show her in... Obedience, Rally and Agility, and it doesn't matter whether she meets the standard for those or not.


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## jenisny (Aug 26, 2010)

My dog is a chocolate Havanese, and the pigmentation is chocolate and pink. It's just the genetics of a chocolate Havanese. His paws are actually pink and chocolate spotted. His nose is chocolate with a pinkish tinge. I tried looking at his eyes, and they are light with a chocolate rim, the best I could tell. He is 5 months old. I think lighter pigmentation is more prevalent in a chocolate Havanese. Just as red-heads often have more freckles. You can have the vet look at it, but in my unqualified opinion, it is probably just genetics. Cute dog she is!


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## jetsetgo! (Aug 3, 2010)

I don't know about the pigmentation, but she is so cute!


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

She's an adorable chocolate hav, with the perfect pigmentation and everything else, for you. If she wasn't sold to you as show potential, I'm assuming she was sold on a limited registration, which as Karen mentioned would preclude her from being shown, even if she turns into a four legged Marilyn Monroe. But, again as Karen has so well explained above, you could have a lot of fun with her in obedience, rally or agility. Take a look at Karen's video of her with Kodi in his competition. You can see the sheer joy in his face as he looks lovingly at her.


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## LeighaMason (Dec 16, 2010)

I have Sugarbaby's full registration but it wont help me show her if she doesn't meet the standard.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I have heard, but will let the experts confirm or deny, that it is harder to champion a chocolate under the best of circumstances.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

pjewel said:


> Take a look at Karen's video of her with Kodi in his competition. You can see the sheer joy in his face as he looks lovingly at her.


Aww, gee, thanks, Geri!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

pjewel said:


> I have heard, but will let the experts confirm or deny, that it is harder to champion a chocolate under the best of circumstances.


I've read the same thing... A chocolate dog has to be even that much better to win in competition against black pigmented dogs. Doesn't necessarily seem fair, considering that they are allowed within the standard, but...


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## Narwyn (Jan 24, 2010)

krandall said:


> I've read the same thing... A chocolate dog has to be even that much better to win in competition against black pigmented dogs. Doesn't necessarily seem fair, considering that they are allowed within the standard, but...


Well, our standard very specifically calls for dark pigment. 


> The eyes are *dark* brown, large, almond-shaped, and set rather widely apart. *Dark* eyes are preferred irrespective of coat color, although the chocolate colored dog may have somewhat lighter eyes. The pigment on the eyerims is complete, solid black for all colors except for the chocolate dog which has complete solid, *dark* chocolate pigment.


It allows for chocolates to have chocolate pigment, and notes that somewhat lighter _eyes _are ok, but as you can see from my emphasis above, DARK is the name of the game! Many - by no means all - chocolates have light, pinkish eye rims, nose, lips, with very light (even yellowish) eyes.

IMO, that's not correct, though others are looking for pigment to be in line with coat color (truly self colored). Again IMO, if a white dog should have black pigment, a lighter chocolate dog should have some pretty dark chocolate pigment. I'm an admitted stickler for pigment though - if you ask me, a pink nose is going to burn in the Cuban sun, and pinkish eye rims don't have very much 'sunglasses' effect. But, that's the thing about standards, people interpret them different, but that's my reading.

I've finished several chocolate dogs - I didn't think they was any easier or harder than a different colored dog of the same caliber - but I've also turned down showing some because I just didn't think their pigment was correct.

Pigment fills in the first several months of life, some takes longer than others. At 11 weeks, Will (who is black and white) had lots of pink spots on his pads, but now (18 weeks) I just noticed he has barely any left. But his nose and lips have been pitch black since 6 or 7 weeks at the latest.

Talking to your breeder about showing/not showing is definitely the way to go!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Well, Kat, you certainly know MUCH more about the showing end of things than I do. (pretty easy, since I know just about 0!ound

But I have to say, I prefer dark eyes and pigment too. That said, Sugarbaby is still a doll, and I'm sure will be a WONDERFUL pet for his owner!

Do you know anything about the development of pigment in chocolates? (which was the original question) Is Sugarbaby likely to darken up from this color at 9 weeks, or is it likely that this is what her pigment will be like?


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## Narwyn (Jan 24, 2010)

krandall said:


> Well, Kat, you certainly know MUCH more about the showing end of things than I do. (pretty easy, since I know just about 0!ound
> 
> But I have to say, I prefer dark eyes and pigment too. That said, Sugarbaby is still a doll, and I'm sure will be a WONDERFUL pet for his owner!
> 
> Do you know anything about the development of pigment in chocolates? (which was the original question) Is Sugarbaby likely to darken up from this color at 9 weeks, or is it likely that this is what her pigment will be like?


Why use precious brain space for information you don't use? That's why we are all here, someone always has the answer! (If only I had someone to tell me where my car keys are most mornings :doh

Pigment fills in the first few months of life; I would venture to say that in the majority of cases, you'll see dark pigment by 8 weeks of age, though it may still continue to fill in a little for another few months.

I do agree that Sugarbaby is adorable! She is sort of latte colored, very cute!


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## LeighaMason (Dec 16, 2010)

I am having a hard time finding pictures of a chocolate dog with the proper pigment for a comparison. Would anyone have one they could post? 

BTW: Thanks for the complements, if they were judged on sweetness, Sugarbaby would be best in class! My big gruff husband (that thinks all dogs should have a purpose), has even said she is the cutest thing ever.


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## hartman studio (Feb 14, 2008)

Here is a close up of my Cocotini's face. She has very dark rims right next to the eye which lighten as it moves away.


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## rokipiki (Oct 15, 2010)

Roki is not chocolate, but we had the same problem on right eye -just tiny black spots along the pink eyerim. When he was ten weeks old lady in pet shop gave ne a booklet from Canina - german made natural supplements and pet cosmetics. And in that booklet i found the remedy for lack of pigment- algae pills! I started with two pills a day and later increased to three. Soon I noticed improvement. It took about six months to fill completely. On Nov 19th we went to dog show and his pigmetation around eyes, on nose and lips was marked as excellent. 
You can try to find it in on line shop, but I think that there are many similar products in US.


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## CacheHavs (Aug 2, 2007)

Here are a couple other examples of puppies with dark pigment


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## CacheHavs (Aug 2, 2007)

hartman studio said:


> Here is a close up of my Cocotini's face. She has very dark rims right next to the eye which lighten as it moves away.


Jocelyn, 
I love the look on Cocotini face, kind of that look of "Really mom? Do you really have to get right in my face with that thing?" ound:


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## hartman studio (Feb 14, 2008)

CacheHavs said:


> Jocelyn,
> I love the look on Cocotini face, kind of that look of "Really mom? Do you really have to get right in my face with that thing?" ound:


Cocotini has always been hard to photograph as she tends to always look sooooooo serious whenever I have a camera in my hand!!


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## LeighaMason (Dec 16, 2010)

Thanks for the pics that have been posted so far. Does anyone have a light colored chocolate dog that has the correct eye rim pigment that they could post pictures of?


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I don't know if this helps you, but try this link http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/havanesephotos9.htm


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## LeighaMason (Dec 16, 2010)

Thanks so much, that was exactly what I was looking for!


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