# stains on coat



## elregalohavanese (Jun 20, 2007)

I need some help guys and am wide open to suggestions. Our little Izzy, shown in my avatar went tinkle in her kennel last night...She has not done this in weeks but our schedule was different yesterday...anyway...her pretty white hair has a pretty yellow tinge....She shows again in 2 weeks. I washed her and washed her with whitening shampoo but there is still a hint of yellow....any ideas on what to use to get it out. She must have done it early in the evening for it to make her yellow....wish she had woken us up instead...but here we are....help!!!! I really don't want to show her with a yellow tinged but... I don't think it is an approved havanese color...LOL Susan


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

Depends on where the yellow tinge is. You could always sprinkle a little dry corn startch or baby poweder onto the coat where the yellow is. This helps cut the yellow a little bit~


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I would try some fresh squeezed lemon juice or peroxide on it. That worked to get rid of Gucci's tearing stains, so I'd assume it would work for urine?! 

They sell all sorts of 'cover up/whitening' products at the show dog stores online, but they won't fix the problem, just hide it.

Kara


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Can you try the whitening shampoo again? I just got a bottle of Crystal White that I'm going to try this morning...it says stubborn stains will take 3-4 shampoos to get out. I can't remember where on the internet, but I also came across a spray-on chalk product to hide stains on a white coat - it stays on even if you get the coat wet, but will come out when you shampoo. Good luck!


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

If you can get ahold of some Crystal White, it is really good because it is an enzyme cleaner. Do NOT do the peroxide, please. It will dry her hairs and if she aborbed the urine staining into her coat over one accident overnight, she may already have pretty dry hair.

And if you still can't eliminate it, I'd go for Katie's suggestion with a little of the purple rinseless shampoo spray (found at the shows) to counter-balance it, and then cornstarch and brush out. 

Good luck!


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Hmm, well I stand corrected, again.

But for the record, Gucci didn't have any harsh drying out. I was careful to let it sit for only a few minutes and then wash whichever treatment out and condition and also used a VO5 Hot Oil treatment, her treated hair is the same as the rest of her body.

Although, I haven't used the Crystal White shampoo I did do some research on it and I contact the company awhile back to find out what the 'active ingredient'/bleaching agent was. Interestingly enough, there is Peroxide in it, but they also add Catalase to transform the peroxide to water during the 'shampooing'. Turns out it is the enzyme CATALASE because it is used to CONVERT hydrogen peroxide, so it must be in there to begin with. The enzyme Catalase carries out the following reaction:
2H2O2 (peroxide) -O2 (oxygen)- 2H2O (water)

And that is why you are supposed to "HEAT UP" the shampoo, therefore causing this reaction. If you *don't* heat it up, you'll likely be pouring peroxide on it. 

Also, be careful with frequent use of the whitening shampoos.. Lots of talk on groomer's boards about turning the white fur grey, blue or purple. I think I'd rather have light yellow. lol

"_It should be noted that excessive use of an enzymatic shampoo such as E-Z Groom's Crystal White Shampoo, will turn the coat a grayish color.* Whitening shampoos such as Tomlyn's Sho Sno Whitener or PurePet's Pure Bright Shampoo are a deep purple color and caution should be used with any bluing agent because if it is not worked into the coat with care it can leave blue/purple streaks.*_

Funny, because this happened to my daughter, she was using a 'blonding' shampoo that was tinted purple, and sure enough..in about 4 days her hair was starting to turn a beautiful shade of lavendar! ound: Traumatic in a teenager's life, I tell ya. haha.

Kara
￼


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## elregalohavanese (Jun 20, 2007)

*crystal white*

Kara, You are making my husband's day. He is a science teacher and of course finds all these reactions very interesting. We just had this discussion and now I read your reaction analysis...Science is a wonderful thing....even to those of us to whom it is a foreign language. 
Sorry about your daughter's hair...but had to giggle a little...my teenager and tweenager are both blonde and would be mortified if their hair turned lavendar ..LOL....


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Thumperlove said:


> "_It should be noted that excessive use of an enzymatic shampoo such as E-Z Groom's Crystal White Shampoo, will turn the coat a grayish color.* Whitening shampoos such as Tomlyn's Sho Sno Whitener or PurePet's Pure Bright Shampoo are a deep purple color and caution should be used with any bluing agent because if it is not worked into the coat with care it can leave blue/purple streaks.*_


I also saw this, so I'm keeping an eye on it. Gray is better than purple...since I have a b&w dog with a gray face. I tried the Chris Christensen White on White a long time ago and I could see the purple tinge it left after just one use - I threw it out. I don't want a purple dog! :biggrin1:


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

elregalohavanese said:


> Kara, You are making my husband's day. He is a science teacher and of course finds all these reactions very interesting. We just had this discussion and now I read your reaction analysis...Science is a wonderful thing....even to those of us to whom it is a foreign language.
> Sorry about your daughter's hair...but had to giggle a little...my teenager and tweenager are both blonde and would be mortified if their hair turned lavendar ..LOL....


Glad I could be of amusement!  I'm not a scientist, but we own a small venture capital/investor relations firm and I've dealt with alot of companies that take something 'old' and revamp it into something 'new', like this. I see it all the time.

When I went to their website this morning, I realized that was the same company I had emailed last year about their product. I was a little put off that they were so vague with me and beat around the bush and talked to me as if I was a 3rd grader. lol, A simple direct answer would've sufficed!  It took 2-3 emails to get them to mention the particular enzyme.



> I also saw this, so I'm keeping an eye on it. Gray is better than purple...since I have a b&w dog with a gray face. I tried the Chris Christensen White on White a long time ago and I could see the purple tinge it left after just one use - I threw it out. I don't want a purple dog!


Oh my! LOL! Purple dog? I can imagine it would be more obvious on white hair than blonde! My daughter was horrified, Of course..she used it to get ready for 'ring dance' (which is like Jr. Prom) lol Poor girl. I remember looking at the shampoo and it was purple GOOP! Ack!

If its too good to be true...lol

Kara


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Hmmm, Lavendar hair?? Kara, I hope you got a picture of it for your daughter later on!!! OK so tell me how to get oil based deck stain & sealant out of hair?? He had our deck done this week and Lily must have tried to under the deck so she has several areas of Oak Brown "highlights"


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Laurief said:


> Hmmm, Lavendar hair?? Kara, I hope you got a picture of it for your daughter later on!!! OK so tell me how to get oil based deck stain & sealant out of hair?? He had our deck done this week and Lily must have tried to under the deck so she has several areas of Oak Brown "highlights"


YIKES! lol...I haven't had to deal with oil and sealant  They get into the darndest things. Where is it and how much? Is it too close to the skin to trim? I'll see what I can find out on that one....or maybe someone here has experience with sealant and oil? lol Silly dogs.

Kara

I might have a pic, I'll try to find one!


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## EstrellaVila (Nov 30, 2007)

Lavender dog!!! Oh my. I tried the white on white once and maybe I did not leave it on long enough to turn mine purple... I will definetly be on the watch for that - if I ever use it again!


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Kara,
I think you have some great ideas for staining/great knowledge.....I can sure see that Gucci is stain-free-----can I send Quince to YOUR house for awhile? Just till he is stain free???

He would enjoy playing with Gucci Girl!:becky:


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Kara, Gucci is gorgeous so whatever you are doing is working!! 
I have been pretty lucky that my girls don't stain too much. Of course, now that I said that, they will. 
Laurie, yikes! Sealant?


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Heck YAH~ I'd take Quincy, Can't promise I'd give him back post-stain removal, that might take YEARS. LOL ound: he has one tiny stain on his paw, right? lol...Yep, those paw stains are really tough..I'd say it'd take a LONG, LONG time!!!!!  ound:

Susan, I'm miffed on the Crystal white, does your husband know how that process of converting the peroxide to water is whitening? UNLESS, they count on you *not* 'heating it up' properly? Therefore, using it while as a peroxide whitener?

I don't know about everyone else, but that just sounds like a PIA to me. lol, I can think of alot of better ways to spend my time than cooking a shampoo, and do they even disclose what temp. to cook it to?

Oh, and a few more 'tips', since you are still looking for a safe way. When I was researching "most" stain removal products basically had peroxide, citrus, or bleach (of course diluted in various ways) but I did run into some info about *Colloidal Silver:*

http://www.healing-tao.com/tao-garden/universal/en/colloidal-silver.html

I haven't tried this method, but If Gucci gets stains again, I'm going to try this. It *may* be safer on the coat than the other products, but I'm not sure, do a lil' research on it first. its expensive stuff, but it has alot of listed 'uses' that I can see THIS particular home of mine could use it for! lol I dealt with hives and sunburn this last weekend. If it makes hives vanish in 15 min, heck, maybe I should I order it now. lol, My DS, the middle, always has hives or a rash from something.

Also, look around on Maltese boards/sites..they usually have info to help staining.

Good luck! 
Kara


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## Judy A (Jan 13, 2007)

Kara....just wondering....are you a high maintenance kind of gal? I ask, because I'm low maintenance....have gray hair and have never colored it, use little make-up, can get showered and ready to go in 15 minutes.....live in tennis shoes, etc., etc......
So, Gucci is a high maintenance dog and you do a WONDERFUL job at keeping her in tip top shape. I'm thinking that my dogs would love to move in with you to get some of that pampering!! LOL!! I've been blessed with Izzy who is really pretty low maintenance..never matts, could be bathed more often, but every three weeks is ok. It's Doc I'm worried about....he could require more brushing and bathing than I'm used to and I could encounter some staining with him and I'm worried about matting...only time will tell. I'm not sure what I'll do if that's the case!!! My daughter can attest to the fact that I'm pretty clueless when it comes to doing hair, make-up, dresses, pretty shoes and purses....I tried so hard to make her my little tomboy...LOL!!! "Ah come on, Jackie, lets go play football, I'm not so good at dolls!" I did master ponytails and bangs pretty well......she hates her old pictures!! HAHA Anyway, I love your knowledge and the amount of research that you do......very commendable!


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Am I high maintenance?  hah. Well, if you ask my HUSBAND that Q...he would certainly say "YES". I guess in some ways I am, and other ways I'm not. I usually wear Hollister jeans with holes in them and tank tops..but if the occasion calls for dressing up, I do it to the 9's! So it just depends.

With Gucci, well, she is just all over our furniture and sleeps in our bed so I do want her to be clean. The stains just bothered me and made her look 'dirty', and they did drive me kinda crazy. I guess I am compulsively a clean freak...with my house, and I do mother-hen the kids about brushing their teeth and hair, so maybe? lol

But my main concern with the stain removal was that they were SO close to her eyes and I just wanted to know WHAT chemical I was subjecting her to, and it bothers me that some of these companies don't tell you on the ingredient list (or they us different' words for common things) Its almost *deceptive* to me when I just want to know what I'm subjecting my best friend too, ya know?

Atleast if I bypass some of these commercial products, I can control the amount of dilution of the chemical and start with the absolute LOWEST ratio. 

I guess I like researching and learning about new things. I'm very analytical and I like to know what and why things are the way they are. Funny, I took a Myers-Briggs personality test a few times and I tested the rarest personality there is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INTJ

So, I think that's why I'm a researcher! 

Kara


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## Judy A (Jan 13, 2007)

Kara, you are amazing.....maybe you could move in with me and some of your personality would rub off on me! I know my DH would love to have married a clean freak!!! All of my friends are and I'm such a lazy bones, the house is the last thing I get around to! I'm not too proud of that, though........

I'll have to look into that personality test...

It's nice to have a "researcher" on the forum....saves time for everyone else..LOL!

you're the best...


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

LOL! ound: Thanks, Judy! Honestly, sometimes my own pet peeves are more headache than they are worth! lol My husband has an anal-streak himself, so I guess we are a good match. I DO let some things slide and I don't expect everyone to be perfect (I'm certainly not!) But, If my house gets too messy, I get really stressed out and in a bad mood  

I'd love to come live with you and the babies!  I can't promise I'd get any work done with Doc, Izzy and Kai!!! lol

According to my personality test, I'd make a great research scientist or lawyer! They are fun to take, and I'm pretty sure you can take them online for free. 

Kara


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## elregalohavanese (Jun 20, 2007)

*catalase in crystal white shampoo*

As I understand it...the catalase is a protein that basically breaks down the peroxide(turning it into oxygen and water). If you do not heat the shampoo, the catalase will shrivel and not deactivate the peroxide so you would be basically washing with a high concentration of peroxide. By heating the shampoo, the catalase slowly breaks it down as you are washing so that the shampoo is not so harsh. Interesting....so I guess be sure to heat it up. Susan


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Oh definitely heat it up!  I remember the email back from them it clearly stated it would not damage the coat if used correctly .lol, But I wonder how many people would just bypass heating it up (out of laziness or forgetfulness and end up pouring god knows how much peroxide and chemicals on their dogs' coat. lol Although, I'm certain it would whiten more when cold! ound:

Atleast when I mix up the concoction, I know exactly what amount is in it. There should be a warning on the label, I really loathe things like that.

Kara


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Is this really safe to use? Like around a muzzle/eyes? I'd love to get Quincy's muzzle stains out,but I don't want to hurt him or kill him,you know? Better a stained dog,then a dead one.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Hi Julie, I just used Crystal White on Lincoln's muzzle and he is still very much alive! :biggrin1: I'm not sure I heated it properly though. I put a dab in a dish and microwaved it - then applied it and used warm water to shampoo. The directions say to wrap the area in saran wrap after applying, then use a blow dryer to heat it, but with the face, I just didn't see how that could be done! 

I am back to using Tylan powder and will trim out the stained areas as they grow out. It worked last time and I am hoping it will work this time...


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Jane-----Oh yes--don't hurt my main squeeze there! Lincoln looked fabulous in the playdate photos! What a handsome hunky guy!:kiss:

Is it safe around the eyes? My problem is Quince is always licking the water and shampoo when I bathe him! He is such a stinker! I worry he will lick a stain remover or something and poison himself! Maybe I just worry too much?:ear:


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## JanB (Oct 26, 2007)

Hi all,

I have a question for our resident stain removal expert 

Kara, I (and my DH) are total anal-retentives here too, LOL!!! It does make life easier when you both are, <hehe>

Anyway, I do keep Tessa pretty pristine and love the Pantene shampoo and conditioner. It does such a great job. The first thing people do when they meet Tessa is comment on her beautiful silky coat so thanks for that recommendation. But I've noticed a grungy graying of the hair on her feet now that we are getting out and walking more. No matter how much I wash her feet (and she gets lots of foot baths) it doesn't go away. It is less noticeable when she's dry but still, it bothers me.

Do you have this problem with Gucci? If so what do you use on her feet?

Thanks!


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Julie - you can put special eye drops in their eyes to protect them during bathing. Another trick is to hold their muzzle hair and use a small toothbrush to wash the head and muzzle. I think what everyone is saying is that you need to heat it enough to induce the chemical reaction that makes it not straight peroxide which is very damaging to the coat. I know that if he does lick peroxide it can make them vomit - I think that's what some vets recommend to induce vomiting but don't quote me on it.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Julie said:


> Is this really safe to use? Like around a muzzle/eyes? I'd love to get Quincy's muzzle stains out,but I don't want to hurt him or kill him,you know? Better a stained dog,then a dead one.


Julie, I think it is safe to use, just be cautious around his eyes. Whenever I would treat the stain I would carry her around and hold her for a few minutes so she wouldn't FIDDLE with it, lick/scratch/rub, etc. and then just wash it out and condition well. 
Lots of people love the Crystal white and I'm certainly not saying its not a good product, I just didn't like the run around I got and that all my Q's weren't answered. As a consumer, I think we have the right to know certain things, ya know? But don't let that steer you away. And I dont think it would kill him, or even hurt him...as long as people dont' put it in a bowl on the floor to drink, they should be fine!  lol ound:

Jan, Grey? I don't think I would resort to a peroxide product for that, maybe some fresh lemon juice. If Tessa tries to lick it, it will probably only be ONCE. ound: I haven't dealt with that one. Wait..are you talking about the bottom of the paws? lol I think I have seen that...but I'm not going to disturb the princess to look, she's already pissed off at me for giving her a face bath, clipping her nails and combing out a mat on her ear. She's not a happy camper (the empty space right next to me tells me she's pissed at me! lol)

Seriously though, try lemon juice and cornstarch. (at the same time) I think I'm going to buy some Colloidal silver and try that. I'm curious if its better than peroxide based products.

Kara

PS. Gucci won't let me NEAR her with a toothbrush or face comb. She freaks out. I have to use my fingers, that's the only thing she 'trusts', but I sure WISH she wouldn't be so stubborn about the comb, that would be so much easier! I'd try the comb first.


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Well resident expert Kara - I should ask my question too. We are also getting very dirty feet on our walks and I need to keep MeMe in her show coat until she finishes her championship (actually I'd only consider trimming up her feet since I adore her color). Right now the dirt bathes off easily, but I know it won't be long before it might begin to stain. Will the lemon juice and cornstarch help? Do I make a paste or more liquid solution? And how long should I leave it on? I really hate to have to leave her home but her coat's getting so long I don't want to ruin it.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

LOL! I'm really NOT the expert. ound: I just got lucky and stumbled into a few things that worked, I'd say luck. (here's where my obsessive/compulsive personality came in handy! lol)

Ya know, I have another idea that I'm going to try on Gucci first, so let me experiment around on MY dog (since she's not in the ring) and I'll let ya know if I strike gold.

But until then, when I treated her stains with the lemon juice, I'd leave it on about 5 min and then rub with corn starch or baby powder for a min. or so, and then wash/condition. But the paste actually sounds like a really GOOD idea. 

K.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Julie said:


> Jane-----Oh yes--don't hurt my main squeeze there! Lincoln looked fabulous in the playdate photos! What a handsome hunky guy!:kiss:
> 
> Is it safe around the eyes? My problem is Quince is always licking the water and shampoo when I bathe him! He is such a stinker! I worry he will lick a stain remover or something and poison himself! Maybe I just worry too much?:ear:


Thanks, Julie! Lincoln did lick it quite a bit during the shampoo - I try to block him, but it is hard - that tongue goes everywhere! Anyway, he is still living and didn't throw up afterwards...I don't think they can ingest enough of it to poison themselves if you are vigilant and quick...

You can also try to put a ring of cloth (like a kids' sock, with the end cut off) around the snout to block him from licking....I tried that before with Lincoln when I was doing homemade stain treatments that had peroxide in them.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Thanks guys--I will try your suggestions. I never thought of a toothbrush before!:brick: A sock is a good idea too Jane...You guys won't believe it,but I cut Quincy.:hurt: I got so fed up with the broken hair all over his back,I cut him down and I honestly ruined his face.:hurt:: 

I do know what works on feet though----Quincy has all white feet and I use coat handlers on them. What I do is put him in the sink,wet him all over,then I do his white areas first....I pick up one paw and put full strength coat handlers on it,on the top of the paw,the size of a dime/nickel.(I don't scrimp on the shampoo amount)and then His paw is in my hand (pads are touching my palm). I vigorously rub back and forth across his paw till it lathers up very very bubbly and white. Do not rinse-----then move onto the other paws one at a time. Then after everything is shampooed,I go back and rub vigorously again across each paw before rinsing.The white is perfect on his feet.....Quincy's staining is just on his face/beard area.


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## JanB (Oct 26, 2007)

Kara, Tess'a white hair kind of "wicks" dirt into her feet hair when we walk. Gray, dingy brown...whatever color it is it's not the bright white the rest of her coat is, esp when wet. I'm not showing like Lisa but I'd still like to keep her feet hair white.

OK, Kara, lemon juice and cornstarch. I'll try it as the cheapest simplest option first.

Julie, is that coat handlers shampoo? I've heard of the coat handlers leave-in conditioner but not shampoo. I'll have to order some - I've got quite an order in my cart! Oh, and hair grows so you really can't "ruin" his face. I'm sure you're just being overly critical and he is still adorable


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Jan,
Yes it is Coat Handler's shampoo. I buy mine from PetEdge.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Julie, wow! Did you cut down both Quincy's body and head? With scissors? The first time is hard, isn't it? So much hair and no dashed lines to follow! But don't despair. My human kids and Lincoln got some pretty b-a-d haircuts when I was learning. It will grow out. Fight the temptation to "fix" it by cutting more. 

Shoot, I wished I lived closer to you - I could have helped you trim him. Give my favorite Q-man a big kiss from me! :kiss: And a hug for you! :hug:


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Lisa, if you just want to keep the feet clean, then use something like one of the foam washes. MeMe has a beautiful lush coat, but the hairs are delicate, and the lemon juice is known for causing breakage. If you wouldn't do a bleaching treatment on her feet, then _don't_ do lemon juice. (Remember the 80's when the girls in school were doing that and drying out their hair?) You can do a rinseless shampoo (like Show Off) and cornstarch, or a foam wash like Veterinarian's Best, or follow Julie's method.

Tinky has a drier coat, and she has totally white feet that pick up everything, especially when we go to our training class on blacktop, but just a quick wash of the feet keeps the hair clean and prevents staining.

Once the hair gets drier or starts breaking, it actually absorbs stains more, so try to prevent that.

Oh Julie, I feel your frustration. Hugs to you.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

> (Remember the 80's when the girls in school were doing that and drying out their hair?)


Back in the 80's people were saturating their hair with lemon juice AND/OR "Sun IN" (which a peroxide/lemon/added acid product) and *sitting in the sun for hours OR blowdrying their hair extensively on high heat* in combination with leaving on the hair for hours in the sun. Of course that will damage hair, but that is not what we are talking about, not even close.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Well,Quincy's back was all broke off from Vinnie "catching him".....maybe you'll remember me asking about that a while back. I bought a bitter spray that Kimberly suggested,and it did help---it was starting to grow out,but I probably wasn't diligent enough about it,and they play all the time. So,after months of thought,I decided to cut down his hair. I actually do not regret(well ok alittle) cutting the back/sides etc.It was like I cut off a bunch of split ends or something. Quincy's longest hair was very fine on the sides....and he feels better to the touch now. His coat though changes as you go backwards. It is like his face is silky and his back and butt are cottony. I'm hoping to be able to improve his coat with this cut. I did scissor all of him to about 3" or so...
The hardest part was cutting the beautiful hair on the back of his neck....it was silky and long---a little over 7 1/2" but I swear it was the only healthy hair on him.Still it hurt...

The trouble came when I thought about his topknot.....I quit putting his hair up in a topknot because Vinnie would catch him by it--can you imagine??? He literally pulled a big chunk out and Quincy actually has a bald spot about the size of a dime! His head hair though was long enough to go into his mouth. So----I decided to give him a sierra-style clip.OMG! The hair between Quincy's eyes is very soft and kinda limp...so it didn't work to cut it and hold the other back.....so I cut more...then it looked silly.....so I cut alittle more....and it went from bad to worse! I don't think I did it right....or Quincy's hair isn't the correct texture? I even ended up trimming his eyebrows because they were so long and silly looking with that middle hair gone.....(they also went in his mouth)....his brows are still too long-but he "hides" behind them!<--not kidding...

It broke my heart to see the results of a pair of scissors in my hand.:hurt:




Kimberly-I wanted to ask you a grooming question...
When Quincy gets a matt,it is very small and I can see them like pin-dots...or at the most I've had them 1/2 the size of an m&m.....I know you have helped alot of people with matts as they got overwhelmed...how do I know if I'm getting it out properly? I can just actually comb it out--I've always been able too,even with some pulling of the comb.Quincy has never yipped or resisted....he lets me do what I want..(he is a great guy for grooming) but because he has never acted like it hurt or anything,how can I know,if I am breaking off his coat? I now suspect I could of been damaging his long hair by pulling out snarls etc.with a greyhound comb. Any info/advice?:ear:


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Kara, I was talking to Lisa per advice from groomers and hair stylists that do say lemon juice is drying/damaging. Since she is dealing with a show coat, and I personally can attest to MeMe's hair fine texture, which is more delicate than our human hair and is being showcased in the show ring, I've left my comments directed towards her.

Lisa, here are some resources for you. Article 1, Article 2, and a Wiki Q&A. Overall, it is probably just easier to wash her feet regularly to prevent staining.

Julie, sometimes you just have to do what you have to do to keep it from getting worse. If you leave the mats, they are going to grow larger and break off more hair. The good thing is that if the mat slides out, you probably aren't breaking anything off anyway. It sounds like a small clump of loose hair. A regular comb is probably not going to do a lot of damage unless you are really pulling it and you'll know when you are ripping hair. So long as you aren't cutting through it with a dematting rake or a Mars tool (has blades that slice hair) or something similar.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Julie said:


> The hair between Quincy's eyes is very soft and kinda limp...so it didn't work to cut it and hold the other back.....so I cut more...then it looked silly.....so I cut alittle more....and it went from bad to worse! I don't think I did it right....or Quincy's hair isn't the correct texture?


Julie, same with Lincoln's hair - it is too limp to be able to hold the other hairs back. I tried cutting the head hair when he was a puppy and it just got so floppy, so we are sticking with topknots for now.

Scout scratches his topknot and also managed to yank a small hole's worth out on the top of his head (like the size of a lentil). :frusty:

I know what you mean about cutting off the unhealthy hair. I had to cut down Lincoln when he was a year old after ruining his coat with silicone-based products. It grew in nice and healthy and Quincy's will too!


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Well, if Meme's hair is very fine and easily damaged by lemon juice, then I would be very careful about checking the shampoos for citric acid (lemon juice) it is a _very_ common ingredient in Shampoos (for humans and dogs) I know the Bio Groom and Pure Paws I have in my kitchen are both citrus based shampoos, not sure on CC products, but if I was dealing with a very fine, sensitive coat..I would stay away from ANY shampoo that lists citric acid or fruit extract, I'm sure there is a plethora of names for it in the industry.

I just looked at 3 brands of shampoo in my shower and all 3 have lemon juice aka. citrus/citric acid.

Julie, Give Quincy some kisses for me! :kiss:

K.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Shampoo should always be rinsed thoroughly anyway. The instructions given for lightening with lemon juice have you leave it in the hair, which is what assists in stripping the oils from the cuticle.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Kimberly---
If I pull with a greyhound comb-then is it essentially breaking it off worse,and causing his "fuzziness"?Do you have any suggestions on how to get out a matt without pulling? I've never cut them out either,as they've never been that severe. I want to make sure I don't damage his coat,if I was,now that it is shorter as it comes in. I vow to one day have my full coated cute boy back again!

I've never used anything but a greyhound comb and once in a great while--a pin brush with no little balls at the end....but that is very,very rare I'd use that.

Is there anyway to gauge the time it'd take to grow back? Are there any special products I can use to help it along -- but in a healthy way? I think oh my--it took 2 years to grow what he had...


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## JanB (Oct 26, 2007)

Kara, my blonde DD once turned her hair orange with Sun-In...YIKES!! Seems to be a right of passage for many girls, doesn't it? LOL! It was hideous!

Julie, My Sheltie had a coat like you described: soft and silky until you got to the hind end then it became coarser and it was a bitch to get out mats. I see some of Tessa's hair growing in wavier toward her hind end and have wondered if she will have the same issue.

Kimberly, I shampoo Tessa's feet often and condition too. Her feet hair is very healthy yet it still wicks up the dirt and doesn't shampoo out the stains. So just shampooing isn't enough for her so I really don't know what I could be doing differently.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

JanB said:


> Kara, my blonde DD once turned her hair orange with Sun-In...YIKES!! Seems to be a right of passage for many girls, doesn't it? LOL! It was hideous!
> 
> Julie, My Sheltie had a coat like you described: soft and silky until you got to the hind end then it became coarser and it was a bitch to get out mats. I see some of Tessa's hair growing in wavier toward her hind end and have wondered if she will have the same issue.
> 
> Kimberly, I shampoo Tessa's feet often and condition too. Her feet hair is very healthy yet it still wicks up the dirt and doesn't shampoo out the stains. So just shampooing isn't enough for her so I really don't know what I could be doing differently.


Yes the heated sun in can do some damage, I never bothered with that since my hair is so light anyways? It would probably take me white! I ordered some colloidal silver and I'll let you know how that goes. I know the grayish tinge you are talking about on the bottom of the feet from paved roads, but I only saw it on the hair between her pads, is it on the hair surrounding the foot on Tessa? Maybe I will bring this problem up at my next Mensa meeting and pick the brains of intellects!! lol  Til' then, I still want to experiment with another idea I have, maybe tonight...if I have free time!

Kimberly, I didn't suggest anymore than a few minutes, and it took 3-4X to get the result I wanted. Gucci must have strong, healthy hair because she's suffered no breakage or drying out. I'm only sharing my experience, and *do not *recommend that any dog with weak/frail hair attempt it. I just simply clarified that I did not recommend the 80's technique of heated/UV treatment or extended 'leave in'.

K.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Julie, it sounds like you're doing the best you can. So long as your combs aren't snagging hairs (sharp edges, etc.), there isn't much more you can really do on a preventative level except to possibly use a wide tooth comb for overall combing, and only use the tighter teeth for areas that are matting. With the removal of the ends, hopefully the hair will be healthier overall.

Jan, remember that any product left in the coat, especially conditioners, can attract dirt. Without seeing Tessa's hair up close, knowing the individual products used or knowing where she is getting the dirt, I can't help very specifically.

Kara, Gucci's hair does sound strong and that's great! I just figure there is no point on trying things out on a show coat when groomers & stylists warn against it. Better to be safe than need to grow anything out.  Dearest MeMe is on her way to her championship and I know Lisa is hoping she can rake in all the points she can. At her young age, one of MeMe's best assets is her gorgeous coat. She lucked out in that department!


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Jan-
I do have an idea for you for Tessa's feet---

Do you trim the hair between the pads? I found if I keep that trimmed on Quince,he doesn't wick so bad,in the snow/wet weather etc. Then after that hair is shaved out between the pads on the bottom of the foot-----run your hand down her leg till the very end......then turn it up towards you,and cut just a little hair rounding it around the toe nails. I believe this technique is in Diane Klumb's book,"the havanese",but I remember Debbie telling me as well. It has really helped at our house. Then if you have staining,you may want to try Kara's technique to get the immediate stain out and the Coat Handlers will help you maintain and keep it that way.:thumb:


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Havtahava said:


> Julie, it sounds like you're doing the best you can. So long as your combs aren't snagging hairs (sharp edges, etc.), there isn't much more you can really do on a preventative level except to possibly use a wide tooth comb for overall combing, and only use the tighter teeth for areas that are matting. With the removal of the ends, hopefully the hair will be healthier overall.
> 
> Kimberly- You cut Tinky down once,right? Did it take a long time to grow back? Like if it took 2 years to grow as it was,it surely won't take another 2,will it? Can you tell I have "cutters remorse"?ound:


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

That's a good point, Julie. Keeping the foot hair trimmed means that it only touches grass or other areas with more texture when walking.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Oh funny, Julie! I just sent you a private message that included a mention my one time of cutting down Tinky's coat. I was so sorry I did it and am battling the urge to do it again. These puppies are really doing a number on her hair. Atwood is almost always laying on her if he can find her (and that isn't even her puppy!).

It probably took a full year and a half for her hair to get floor length after I cut her down, but I cut her _really _short. She only had an inch or so of hair all over her body.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Havtahava said:


> That's a good point, Julie. Keeping the foot hair trimmed means that it only touches grass or other areas with more texture when walking.


I never would of thought trimming that hair was important,till you try this...it was amazing what it did for Quince!


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Kimberly thanks for the articles and nice compliment on MeMe's coat. Guess she decided to grow hair rather than legs. ound: Actually, I noticed that she's got the dark tips on her feet so it is difficult to tell if it's dirt or hair. So I guess only her hairdresser knows for sure. :biggrin1:


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Havtahava said:


> Oh funny, Julie! I just sent you a private message that included a mention my one time of cutting down Tinky's coat. I was so sorry I did it and am battling the urge to do it again. These puppies are really doing a number on her hair. Atwood is almost always laying on her if he can find her (and that isn't even her puppy!).
> 
> It probably took a full year and a half for her hair to get floor length after I cut her down, but I cut her _really _short. She only had an inch or so of hair all over her body.


Our posts/pm crossed....but thanks for the pm...


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Julie, maybe while Quincy's hair is growing out, Vinnie will get out of the habit of pulling on it while they play!


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Havtahava said:


> Julie, it sounds like you're doing the best you can. So long as your combs aren't snagging hairs (sharp edges, etc.), there isn't much more you can really do on a preventative level except to possibly *use a wide tooth comb for overall combing, and only use the tighter teeth for areas that are matting*. With the removal of the ends, hopefully the hair will be healthier overall.


Kimberly, I actually wanted to ask something about that. I use the wide comb only for Kubrick's face as a once over and then I use the tighter teeth comb for his face (after using the wide) and the rest of his body. I don't use the wide tooth on his body at all as he has very fine hair and I thought the wide wouldn't help me catch mats (he is getting them EVERYWHERE now that he is blowing coat). Am I wrong in thinking that? Should I be using the wide tooth for his entire body even if he is matting pretty much everywhere? Or perhaps switch to the wide tooth comb once he is done blowing coat? Or can I stick to what I've been doing even then? His hair doesn't break much except right where the harness hits and he has some shorter hairs there - like we mentioned at the play date.

Sorry for all the questions, LOL!


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Lina said:


> Kimberly, I actually wanted to ask something about that. I use the wide comb only for Kubrick's face as a once over and then I use the tighter teeth comb for his face (after using the wide) and the rest of his body. I don't use the wide tooth on his body at all as he has very fine hair and I thought the wide wouldn't help me catch mats (he is getting them EVERYWHERE now that he is blowing coat). Am I wrong in thinking that? Should I be using the wide tooth for his entire body even if he is matting pretty much everywhere? Or perhaps switch to the wide tooth comb once he is done blowing coat? Or can I stick to what I've been doing even then? His hair doesn't break much except right where the harness hits and he has some shorter hairs there - like we mentioned at the play date.
> 
> Sorry for all the questions, LOL!


I think the width of the teeth depends on the density of each dog's coat and how effective it is in doing the job needed. I recommended a wide tooth comb for Julie because she said she was pulling hair, and she is really trying to avoid ripping it.

When I groom my dogs, I start with the widest option - my pin brush all over the body first, and then the wider tooth end of the butter comb. If I find snags in areas, then I move to the finer toothed side to do mat removal. The goal is to remove the mats with the least damage possible, so get out what you can with the wider teeth, and then pare it down as needed. If you were to start with the tighter teeth, you can actually create more mats where the wider teeth will separate them apart.

Better yet, do what Patti (clubbabalu)'s husband does and just use your fingers!


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Kimberly, thanks, that makes sense. I think I will try it that way from now on. I do use the pin brush first before any combing... just wanted to clarify since I didn't put that in the last post, but I do think that a wide comb then do a fine where needed should work pretty well. Thanks!


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

I use a pin brush first, then the wide tooth end of the greyhound comb to work through their bodies/legs. I do use the fine toothed end on their faces (after the wide).

If I used the fine toothed end on my dogs' bodies, it would take me _forever_ to comb them out  I agree that it depends on your dog's coat type and density as to what is needed.

I find that the pin brush really does help as a first pass to get the little tangles and snarls out, before using the comb. Then there is much less resistance to getting the comb through the hair.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Susan, I don't know why I didn't think of this before, but if you want care tips for a light colored Havanese with a show coat, you should talk to Diane (windfallhavs). She has the gorgeous Katie and I know she knows what she's doing! There is not a single strand of frizz on that dog's coat and she is very even in shades (except the couple of spots that were born with additional color). She's gorgeous.

Here's Katie's page of photos. Katie's coat is so gorgeous that it drew attention from several long-time Havanese breeders that have a great eye for dogs when we were at Westminster.

Or, you can ask Karen (California Star) about caring for Bailey's coat and preventing staining.

Bailey & Katie have the two nicest, cleanest, stain-free coats in the show ring - when it comes to cream or white colored Havs.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Jane said:


> Julie, maybe while Quincy's hair is growing out, Vinnie will get out of the habit of pulling on it while they play!


That would be nice---we can only hope!

I think I need to use the pin brush more--as I almost use the greyhound comb exclusively.Maybe I'm causing breakage. I need to get this right,because I don't think I'll ever cut him down again.


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## windfallhavs (Oct 19, 2006)

Thanks for the compliments, Kimberly! I work very hard to make sure she looks nice in the ring, but I have to say that good genes and good breeding are on my side! LOL 

Kara is somewhat on the right track with the lemon juice, actually. I would not use straight lemon juice on a show coat, especially if the coat is so fragile that one accident is leaving urine stains. However, #1 All Systems makes a product called Product Stabilizer that is really good at taking stains out. It is primarily a rinse used to take product residue out of the coat, but it also works on taking some of the stain out as well. I only use it every 4 shampoos or so, because it does have a somewhat drying effect on the hair, so whenever I do use it I am sure to super condition the coat afterwards. 

Here is a pic of Katie at Westminster so you can see her coat.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Katie is SOOOOOO very beautiful!

Just one more thing on those "waterless" shampoos, check to see if they contain Sodium Laurel Sulfate or Sodium Laureth Sulfate (it is prob. one of the first few ingredients):

S_SODIUM LAUREL SULFATE & SODIUM LAURETH SULFATE
Sodium Lauryl Sulfate (SLS) is an inexpensive detergent used in products such as shampoos, bath gels, cleansers, floor cleaners, carwash soaps, and engine degreasers. SLS is very corrosive to greasy surfaces. [Sodium Laureth Sulfate is a variation of Sodium Lauryl Sulfate that has a higher foaming quality, but shares many of the same characteristics as Sodium Lauryl Sulfate.]

SLS is a tissue irritant. It has been used widely in laboratory testing on humans and animals to irritate the skin, so that other agents could be tested to see how they affect the irritated tissue. Because of its irritating affect on the skin, SLS is classified as a drug when used in bubble bath products. SLS actually eats away the skin and may cause rashes (which could lead to infection).

SLS may react with other ingredients in skin products, forming nitrosamines (nitrates; cancer-causing agents). Studies have revealed that SLS penetrates (with prolonged retention) deep into the tissues of the eyes, brain, heart, liver, and other vital tissues.

SLS cleans by corrosion. It strips away protective lipids from the skin. It is believed to attack hair follicles which can cause hair loss.

Many alerts, including governmental, have been released about the dangers and/or negative affects of Sodium Lauryl Sulfate, yet it is abundant in many popular products.

Check your personal care products (soap, shampoo, toothpaste...), to see if they contain SLS. Decide for yourself if SLS is a good choice for your health._


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## JanB (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm on vacation so I haven't been checking back much so I just caught up on posts.

Julie, I do keep her feet and foot pad hair trimmed and yes, that does help tremendously.

Kimberly, when you say any conditioner left on the coat will attract dirt, do you mean the coat handlers conditioner as well? I was thinking of ordering some soon but if it will make things worse then I won't.

Diane, Katie is absolutely beautiful!

Kara, good point. I avoid all products with the SLS in it. I used to have a terrible problem with canker sores in my mouth. Once I switched to a natural toothpaste they went away.

Yesterday I went to the fancy doggy store here and bought some shampoo and conditioner. She feels and looks great today. Then at Wal-Mart I found a waterless bath shampoo with an ingred list of: softened water, jojoba oil, aloe vera, and natural essential oils. I used it on her feet after our walk this morning and it worked pretty good. I'm thinking all the foot baths w/o conditioning every single time was making her foot hair dry so it was wicking more than usual. Then again, maybe as a rinseless "shampoo" it will attract dirt? So I'll try this for a while and see what happens.

Oh, and good to know that when I intuitively used the pin brush, then a wide comb, and finishing with the fine tooth comb for mats and tangles, I was doing it right! :biggrin1:


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