# HSD Not Showing AKC? Wrong



## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

For the Silks (HSDA) to no longer be Havanese I found these show results very interesting. This was a show I had thought about going to but couldn't. 
This link should take you to the Greenville show that was to be HCA supported entry with Sweepstakes. Check the owners of these dogs.

http://www.infodog.com/RESULTS/2007038801/2007038801528.HTM


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I think a few of them said they wouldn't be showing, but that wasn't a statement that was made across the board - to my knowledge anyway.

Wow, Ann did great! A Group 3!


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

All of their dogs were originally registered as Havanese, so they can show them. It's like having dual citizenship, sort of.


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## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

Good sleuthing, Sandi. I think I remember "Doc" saying in her last (very nasty/inappropriate) post on this Forum that they were going to be showing at their _own _events, thank you very much, or words to that effect. 
Seems like they are back-peddling~~maybe it's just tooooo lonely at the top, LOL. Not that I, as a pet Hav owner care a fig. It's just an amusing and all too predictable human drama. . . .


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Sandi, the show was in Greensboro and I was there, but don't ask me who was silk or not and who won what. My DH and I were simply overwhelmed by the many beautiful dogs in one spot, LOL. It was our first dog show.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

I believe it was actually Greg that said the HSD's would NOT be competing in HCA Events. (This was a reply to one of my message in the war thread a while back.. lol.. I can find it maybe.. ) He said there might be one HSD guy still showing at HCA events but they were trying to get him to stop...
The HSD charter also says something about 'urging' members to not show at HCA events..lol


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I think this "policy" not to show in AKC events keeps changing like the weather, lol...They probably 'miss' the active show-life. I recognize a few names from the show I went to here in VA Beach a few weeks ago at the Convention Center...it was a pretty big show, the Silk that was entered didn't place, btw...but she is a cute dog!

How can you tell who placed? Are the numbers on the side points they got?

Kara


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

The numbers on the side (1, 2, and 3) are their placements within each class. Then the other letters tell you if they won Winners, Breed, Opposite. The G3 means that Ann's bitch went on after taking the Breed to get a Group 3, which is pretty spectacular!


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## casperkeep (May 16, 2007)

All this does not make any sense to me....but one thing does I have a beautiful Havanese named Jillee that I love to pieces!!!


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## jillnors2 (Apr 12, 2007)

The By The Bay girl who won breed is a Havana Silk Dog, Isn't she?


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

My only thought would be- wouldn't they not want to win at AKC havanese show? If you felt your standard was truly different (to the point of having a different breed in phenotype) and you had a seperate breed. Wouldn't that be like showing your havanese as a Lhasa and winning?


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

You CAN have your cake and eat it to!


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Yes, By the Bay is HSD.

Well, showing is their hobby, and income after Ch. to breed the dog, so it would be really hard to quit, I'd presume.

And at the show I went to, it seemed like the judge picked Havs with thicker, more profuse coats. Of course, that could be coincidental...but the thinner coated silk didn't place, nor the corded. But every judge is different so I'm told.

Kara


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## Gableshavs (Jun 19, 2007)

Very interesting that dogs owned by Dianne Klumb (Bydand) and dogs owned by Joanne Baldwin (Elfin) are showing with havanese. It is these two women who are the people behind the Havana Silk Dog Assn. Good sleuthing, I think people love to show dogs and perhaps their shows aren't enough. Kara, didn't you participate in the Fiesta show in VA beach? I think Rick was the barbeque chef.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I was actually sick that weekend but I did make it up to see my friends show their dogs in the 'pet' catagory.  I was there probably an hour or so? I believe it was catered by a local barbecue place.

I did hear alot about it via emails, etc. I guess there was some drama I missed. lol

Kara


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## Gableshavs (Jun 19, 2007)

Ann must be over the moon with her win. Nothing like that feeling of winning in the group ring and a Group 3 is amazing. I don't want to go into the politics of the silk dog people, I wish them the best but I know a lot of HCA people are very sore about what they did and it's going to take time for those wounds to heal, and now they're back in the ring with the rest of the havanese, interesting.


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

I really was not sleuthing, just interested in what happened and was shocked at Bill, Diane and Doc's names appearing. I do remember them saying and so does their web site that they have their own judging system. 

I still think it strange that they showed.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I wouldn't call it sleuthing either. Sandi's been in the dog show world for a long time and many people look up show results on a regular basis. I get emails out of the blue from people across the country who look up show results asking about Piaget because they keep seeing his consistent wins over the last few weeks.


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## Gableshavs (Jun 19, 2007)

Sorry about the word sleuthing. Please accept that I regret my faux pas. I was at Brooksville this weekend and love the shows. I love belonging to my Florida breed club which is PURE HAVANESE. I also can't wait until I have one of my own breeding to show. Nothing negative was meant by my use of that word, really it's true, it was a poor choice.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Havtahava said:


> I wouldn't call it sleuthing either. Sandi's been in the dog show world for a long time and many people look up show results on a regular basis. I get emails out of the blue from people across the country who look up show results asking about Piaget because they keep seeing his consistent wins over the last few weeks.


Well this makes me feel better, I look up show results all the time and dont even show.. I just thought I was a little nuts, glad to see I'm not the only one.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Well...rumor has it, and I stress "rumor" that some do not want to quit showing the AKC shows, and I do hear alot of gossip here being in the heart of Virginia and having friends that own Silk dogs. But please don't think that all the pet owners are "anti-Havanese". They are NOT. I think many of them just were given a paper to fill out and mail in, they are not involved in internet communities and really aren't aware of the politics involved here. They just love their pets.

Some pet owners really got their feelings hurt. I did get scoffed at by a few people that asked about Gucci, and she's just a 'plain old Havanese, not a silk', I say.. LOL, You can probably imagine the reaction I got!!!!! haha. My feelings are not easily hurt, so it didn't bother me...but other people are really upset. 

Boneterre and BlackBirch are also HSD, I think.

Kara


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## Gableshavs (Jun 19, 2007)

I don't understand why anyone would scoff at a girl as lovely and well-maintained as Gucci, I think they're just jealous. People are funny, you know?


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

No offense taken on the word "sleuthing", and I do not want to open another Silk/Havanese can of worms!

I could care less about the silks other than the poor judgment and wording they used in their reasoning for the break off. I just have a new forum friend that has not been showing because her breeder has gone with the silks, and "they will have their own shows." I find this very sad to have bought an AKC show Havanese puppy and to be excited about showing, only to be told before it is a year old they were going in a different direction. As this breeder is her mentor she has gone with them.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Gableshavs said:


> I don't understand why anyone would scoff at a girl as lovely and well-maintained as Gucci, I think they're just jealous. People are funny, you know?


Well....a white dog is not common around here or in the HSD, so I guess people were curious about her. I had several people ask me about her line (I presume because of her color) and I got mixed reactions, a few scoffs and sour faces, a few 'sympathetic' reactions, and a few "there is no difference!"..so it was really a mixed bag, some were rude, some were very nice...I think some pet owners are just starting to realize what's going on with this split...I've been getting lots of emails and phone calls..since I have the token-Hav! LOL

The breeder that was doing evaluations thought Gucci was "a beauty" and recognized her line, which was pretty impressive to me!

Kara


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

SMARTY said:


> I just have a new forum friend that has not been showing because her breeder has gone with the silks, and "they will have their own shows." I find this very sad to have bought an AKC show Havanese puppy and to be excited about showing, only to be told before it is a year old they were going in a different direction. As this breeder is her mentor she has gone with them.


Sandi, she doesn't have to stay away from showing. Most of Hillary's relatives have gone HSD, including her breeder, but I don't let that impact her or me. She is a registered Havanese and I am a Havanese show hobbiest. She can be too.

One of the judges this past weekend wanted to talk to me about the so-called controversy. (I thought it was interesting that she liked Hillary and Piaget, who are two very, very different styles.) The judges all know what is going on and your friend would do fine in the ring, assuming her show quality Hav has held up structurally.


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Kimberly I agree she could have continued to show, but as she was new and listened to her breeder she went with the Silks. Her breeder was not going to be showing AKC.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Oh, I see. I didn't catch that she had also moved over to the HSDAA.


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## jillnors2 (Apr 12, 2007)

> The breeder that was doing evaluations thought Gucci was "a beauty" and recognized her Tapscott line, which was pretty impressive to me!


I'm not sure what you mean by evaluations?? Do you mean for an HSD?


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

No, I'm not registering her with the HSD. I'm content owning a Havanese 

Kara


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## jillnors2 (Apr 12, 2007)

Who was doing evaluations? I don't understand your other post.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

SMARTY said:


> Kimberly I agree she could have continued to show, but as she was new and listened to her breeder she went with the Silks. Her breeder was not going to be showing AKC.


I do know someone in the same situation as your friend, and she continues to show her dog in AKC shows, they have not kicked her out or anything.

Kara


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

jillnors2 said:


> Who was doing evaluations? I don't understand your other post.


I don't recall their names, but they were Canadian and very friendly and guessed her line and said she was a 'beauty', just being nice to us, I presume.

Kara


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Winners for both days in Greensboro were HSD's. Ann's bitch Marly, who won a Group 3 on Saturday, didn't win her class on Sunday-pretty typical for an AKC show weekend.

The BOB winner on Sunday was a different HSD. The weekend had been planned as a BRHC Specialty long before the split and as usual there was a good attendance by the club members even if they weren't showing a dog. We didn't show a dog because Pam is President of the club and was Show Chairman for the weekend so it might have appeared to be conflict of interest. As long as they dogs are registered as Havanese there is no conflict of interest to show them AKC. 

Until and if the AKC says that Havana Silk Dogs are no longer Havanese then I'm sure there will be some showing most weekends. We plan to show Posh some just for more experience in the ring for him.

We have Arab horses that are accepted in the German Oldenburg Verband. They will always be Arabs. They had to be inspected to be accepted into the GOV much like Havana Silk Dogs have evaluated to be accepted. Arab people don't hate us that we have Arabs registered as Oldenburgs. We have Havanese that are registered as Havana Silk Dogs. All Havana Silk Dogs do fit the current AKC Havanese Standard. All Havanese don't fit the Havana Silk Dog standard. Things like "slightly shorter" and a stated ratio of 3 to 4.

There were two breeds in the AKC Havanese ring this past weekend in Greensboro. I was kept company by a long time person, new to me, who had been in dogs since the 50s when she had Boxers. She didn't know anything about the split but did comment on the differences right off without me saying anything.

I don't see what the big deal is.


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Tom I think the only big deal is hurt feelings and a bad taste from past arguments, thats all. When a person speaks for the HSD people as a group then some do something different, people tend to wonder why. 

Im sure thats all it is. I hope you and Pam & the dogs are doing well! 

Kara... of COURSE Gucci is a beauty! I would say Royalty!


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Not a big deal but I totally understood the HSD were going to go their own direction even if the AKC didn't recognize them. One of the HSD breeder/owners stated on this forum that the AKC was only one of the registries and that the HSD’s would be recognized. 

I would not take the time to go back to reference, it’s not that important to me, but I know that is what was being said at the time. Just seems strange to me if you want to be accepted as a different breed that you would still want the AKC recognition of being a Havanese champion.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Too much is made of any individual's statements in either the Havanese or the Havana Silk Dogs. Personally, we do our own thing. There are now "Havanese people" and "Havana Silk Dog people" whether anyone likes it or not. It looks like there is no getting around it. Some "Havanese people" are treating us much differently now than we have treated anyone. No big deal but why skirt around the issue and be silly. 

There are more important issues now for the Havanese than hurt feelings/silliness. Keep up with what's going on with the Havanese. Some of us have stepped aside who used to have meaningful input.


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Dear Goodness, is this turning into another Havanese vs. HSD thread? Just accept there are 2 sides and each side has their point of views (and within each side there are even more different views). Just let go already. BTW, this will be my first and last post in this thread, no time for negative vibes.


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

ama0722 said:


> My only thought would be- wouldn't they not want to win at AKC havanese show? If you felt your standard was truly different (to the point of having a different breed in phenotype) and you had a seperate breed. Wouldn't that be like showing your havanese as a Lhasa and winning?


I would of thought the same thing..


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I didn't realize the timing before Tom posted. It makes sense now because it was the Blue Ridge Specialty. That annual event has always been a big deal for this group of people and a lot of planned fun.


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## Gableshavs (Jun 19, 2007)

It's just that the silks glorious leaders, keep changing their own program, the flow like the glorious tails of our Havanese, moving freely with the wind. 
Paula


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

maryam187 said:


> Dear Goodness, is this turning into another Havanese vs. HSD thread? Just accept there are 2 sides and each side has their point of views (and within each side there are even more different views). Just let go already. BTW, this will be my first and last post in this thread, no time for negative vibes.





> There are more important issues now for the Havanese than hurt feelings/silliness. Keep up with what's going on with the Havanese. *Some of us have stepped aside* who used to have meaningful input


I'd wondered if this thread would turn into yet another debate...I hope not, but maybe one day the Havanese community can discuss things about our dogs. A *different breed* in their 'ring' certainly qualifies as a "Havanese" topic, IMO.

And..Thanks, Melissa!  :kiss:

Kara


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Not to be argumentative, but this is new territory for them (HSDAA) and they do have to find their way in what they are doing. I think it is fairly expected that things will change along the way and people will change their minds on decisions they have made as they go - whether as individuals or as they talk things out as a whole association.

I guess I still don't see the problem in all of this. Then again, I'm not a part of it and have chosen to keep out of most of it, but I do still have friends that are involved.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

I just think people get more confused over the whole thing when things like this happen. But they are registered as Havs, so they can be shown with Havs. I have to agree with Amanda - why would they want to continue winning as Havs?


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I don't want to be argumentative either, I have friends that are pet owners in the HSD and friends that are HCA....and many Hav pet owners too! 

I just think that topics like this are valid in the community and can be brought up, I don't feel it was 'meddling' in the HSD goings on... It is a bit counterproductive for the HSD, but then again..its their decision(s).

Kara


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

I don't think it's meddling or being argumentative, unless we let it get out of control. I am always checking show info, and I don't have show dogs. I just like to see who is winning.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Kara, even though my comment followed yours, I wasn't directing the argumentative word at you or anyone specifically. 

I was just intending to say that I think it is expected that their rules, policies or whatever are going to change a bit in the beginning. It is uncharted waters.

Yes, dog shows are intended to be competition, but I find them to rank pretty high on a social level personally. If a social event is planned around a dog show, even better! But, that's just me.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

*my 1.9 cents Canadian.. lol*



Tom King said:


> Until and if the AKC says that Havana Silk Dogs are no longer Havanese then I'm sure there will be some showing most weekends. We plan to show Posh some just for more experience in the ring for him.


I just do not understand why the HSD wants to show in the HCA? They broke off and formed the HSD which is a totally separate breed from the Havanese. Are these HSD dogs being shown at HCA events so that they can gain experience in the ring? That sounds a bit like you are using the HCA shows to better the HSD? That a pretty 1 sided relationship! Would a Havanese be welcomed at a HSD event in order to gain experience in the ring? If yes, then fine.. but if the answer is no, then I think that's an issue&#8230;

Point 10 of the HSDAA constitution says: To urge members and breeders to accept the Havana Silk Dog standard as the only standard of excellence by which the Havana Silk Dog should be judged.

Well, are the Directors and committee's 'urging' you and others that show at the HCA events to stop this behavior? 

Point 11 of the constitution says: To urge the American Kennel Club to accept the Havana Silk Dog (registered in its country of origin as the Bichon Habanero) as a breed separate and distinct in both form and character from the Havanese, a purely American breed developed in part from the original dog of Havana.

This point might be easier to achieve if your fellow members followed point 10. It would definitely make the AKC think the HSDAA is more serious about its goals and objectives.

I realize that the HSD fits the Havanese standard, but honestly, don't you think the HSD members waived their 'right' to show at a HCA event once they declared they are a new superior breed called the HSD and broke off to form said group?

Having said all this, I really do not know much about the 'dog world', but I do think I have made some interesting and valid points.

Ryan


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I'll reply,

I just do not understand why the HSD wants to show in the HCA? 
answer: The shows are AKC shows and AKC says that Havana Silk Dogs are Havanese at this point. Heck, even we say that we have AKC registered Havanese that are registered as Havana Silk Dogs.

Are these HSD dogs being shown at HCA events so that they can gain experience in the ring? 
answer: People have all sorts of reasons for showing. Showing started as a way to validate breeding stock. It's many more things than that now. Our dogs are finished and we have never chased points so right now if we show it might be just for the dog's benefit.

That sounds a bit like you are using the HCA shows to better the HSD? 
answer: hardly

That a pretty 1 sided relationship! Would a Havanese be welcomed at a HSD event in order to gain experience in the ring? If yes, then fine.. but if the answer is no, then I think that's an issue&#8230; 
answer: If the Havanese is registered as a HSD of course it would be welcomed. Just as showing in the AKC ring if the dog has the proper registration it can be shown. In HSD shows the dogs don't need an Unlinited Registration to be shown. Companions can be shown

Point 10 of the HSDAA constitution says: To urge members and breeders to accept the Havana Silk Dog standard as the only standard of excellence by which the Havana Silk Dog should be judged.
answer: Yes. And judging in the Havanese ring is to the Havanese Standard.

Well, are the Directors and committee's 'urging' you and others that show at the HCA events to stop this behavior? 
answer: No one is "urging" us to do anything other than some "Havanese people" who have urged us to "crawl under a rock and die."

Point 11 of the constitution says: To urge the American Kennel Club to accept the Havana Silk Dog (registered in its country of origin as the Bichon Habanero) as a breed separate and distinct in both form and character from the Havanese, a purely American breed developed in part from the original dog of Havana.
answer: Yes, but personally I don't really care and have stated that opinion publicly.

This point might be easier to achieve if your fellow members followed point 10. It would definitely make the AKC think the HSDAA is more serious about its goals and objectives.

I realize that the HSD fits the Havanese standard, but honestly, don't you think the HSD members waived their 'right' to show at a HCA event once they declared they are a new superior breed called the HSD and broke off to form said group?
answer: " I don't remember the "superior" part being declared by me. And we haven't waived any rights. 

Having said all this, I really do not know much about the 'dog world', but I do think I have made some interesting and valid points.
answer: As long as the HSDs are continued to be registered as Havanese by the AKC there will continue to be both in the ring. Probably with most of them you won't even know wheter they are or not.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

From an HSD standard point of view, would it mean the judge (who puts up the HSD's v. Havanese) misinterpreting the AKC havanese standard or maybe just focusing on one piece of the standard such as coat? I know it is all one person's opinion on any given day but just a thought...

Amanda


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

"As long as the HSDs are continued to be registered as Havanese by the AKC there will continue to be both in the ring. Probably with most of them you won't even know whether they are or not."
_________________
*Um, if you wouldn't know whether they are or not.....
Doesn't that make the whole argument 'for' HSD pretty much a moot point ?*


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## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

To return to the original post: I used the word "sleuthing" only in a colorful way. It had no double or hidden meanings or agenda. Jeez, can we not be so PC. I don't even know Sandi, or whether she goes to dog shows or not. I was merely responding in a, hopefully, amusing way to what I found to be an interesting tidbit of HSD news.


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

If there were obviously two different breeds in the ring, then I say that is very frustrating. It's only confusing the judges and doing a disservice to the our breed, the Havanese. So if the HSD is so obviously a different breed, you are not doing the Havanese people any favors by still showing against them. So I would not be surprised at the lack of respect. When I hear things ( from my FRIENDS) like, I registered all my dogs HSD but one, I am going to keep him Havanese because people still want to breed to him. HELLO making your dog a certain "breed" just for the $$$$$$$. The rules change to be convenient for the HSD people. 

Maybe we put weight on what one HSD person says because they appear to be talking for the group and backed up by other HSD'ers. It was stated in the past showing in AKC was discouraged and most would not. 

It is a big deal, and it was handled AWFUL. Pretending its not a big deal is just as silly. 

We all bought the book about The Havanese and it didnt mention the two breeds. Im sure we will be able to all buy a new book soon about the HSD. I don't think you are all in it for financial reasons, ( there are many HSD people I respect) but A LOT are.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Tom King said:


> I'll reply,
> 
> I just do not understand why the HSD wants to show in the HCA?
> answer: The shows are AKC shows and AKC says that Havana Silk Dogs are Havanese at this point. Heck, even we say that we have AKC registered Havanese that are registered as Havana Silk Dogs.
> ...


The AKC doesn't choose, the breeder is choosing how the dog should be registered. Both should not be in the ring if one has declared they are a different breed, I don't care how they are registered. Tell us how the vote went this past weekend to change the name of the Blue Ridge Havanese club to Blue Ridge Havana Silk Dog club? Now how is that going off and doing your own thing?


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Kathy said:


> Both should not be in the ring if one has declared they are a different breed, I don't care how they are registered. Tell us how the vote went this past weekend to change the name of the Blue Ridge [Havanese club to Blue Ridge *Havanese* Silk Dog club? Now how is that going off and doing your own thing?


 (Bold emphasis is Kimberly's)

Did I read that right or is that a typo? Is the new name really going to be the Blue Ridge _*Havanese*_ Silk Dog club?

Edited to add:
By the way, Amy, I didn't think you meant anything wrong by using the word sluething. I commented because some people assume that it implies a secretive snooping around and I didn't want anyone reading thinking Sandi was like that. It wasn't a slight towards you in the least.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Havtahava said:


> (Bold emphasis is Kimberly's)
> 
> Did I read that right or is that a typo? Is the new name really going to be the Blue Ridge _*Havanese*_ Silk Dog club?


No, that is a typo, I tried to correct it but the dang computer wouldn't let it go through. It should read "Havana"


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Kathy said:


> No, that is a typo, I tried to correct it but the dang computer wouldn't let it go through. It should read "Havana"


OK, good. I was really thinking... oh, nevermind.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Havtahava said:


> OK, good. I was really thinking... oh, nevermind.


Can you try to edit if for me, I have tried twice now and the hour glass thing just continues to spin and locks up my computer.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Kathy said:


> Can you try to edit if for me, I have tried twice now and the hour glass thing just continues to spin and locks up my computer.


I can't edit your posts, but I've had that happen when I try to edit mine. Go back to the Edit button, but then go to the "Go Advanced" link and edit there and then press "Save Changes". That always works when the other method doesn't.


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

I still don't get it....

Wouldn't it be like taking your child out of public school, because you didn't believe in the how the school was ran, and their standard of teaching.... and then starting your own school, that was ran to your standards....then taking your child back to the public school for testing(judging)...and being proud that your child got the best grade on the test....

You can send your child back there because it is open to any child..but why would you if you started your own school...because you didn't feel public school was doing a good enough job for my child

If I didn't like the way the public school was ran and it wasn't to my standards... then why would I go back and have my child tested by them..knowing I don't agree with there standards..
Just thinking out loudeace:


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## Gableshavs (Jun 19, 2007)

I'm hearing rumors that many who came over to the HSD side are now upset by unfulfilled promises and are not rejoining HSD when time to renew membership.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

The reason many Silk Dogs were shown last weekend was because the show was a supported entry. The BRHC has planned it a year in advance and even though many members of the BRHC are also members of the HSDAA, they decided it was the right thing to do to support the BRHC by showing their dogs. Many people had worked very hard to get the specialty ready and it wasn't their fault there was a split. For many of them it was the first time the dogs had been shown AKC in many months. 

I really hope this thread doesn't go down the road of previous threads. We've been getting along so well on the forum lately. 

I think Kimberly has hit the nail on the head. We're a new organization.....setting out on a new course. 

I'm sorry our supporting the BRHC Specialty has upset so many. I guess we'll all just need to work harder to get along.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Was just surfing around the HCA site and found this freshly posted as of today:
Very interesting...

Here is the link to the actual letter...
http://www.havanese.org/Letter_to_AKC_Judges.doc

*************

November 14, 2007

To: All Judges of the Havanese Breed, Toy Groups and Bests in Show

Re: Havanese 

On behalf of the Havanese Club of America (HCA) officers, directors and members, this letter is being sent to clarify any possible misconceptions concerning the Havanese breed. Recently, there has been publicity surrounding a proposed "new breed" called the Havana Silk Dog (HSD). HSD breeders are attempting to split and discredit the Havanese breed and solicit the interest of judges and the AKC into allowing the HSD dogs to join the Toy Group under the name Havana Silk Dog.

To this end, there is a significant amount of misinformation that is being circulated in personal conversations, on websites, and in print.

I ask that you please note the following facts:

o The Havanese Club of America (HCA) is the recognized AKC Parent Club for Havanese breed. 
o HCA Parent Club members support the current Standard as approved on May 7, 2001 and make every attempt to breed to that Standard,
o The new theory, presented in various places and known as "The Arizona Conundrum", contains material misrepresentations, misinformation and fabrications. The theories are unsubstantiated and are structured to glorify the "new breed" (which would theoretically be based on a subset of the Havanese). Please note that HSD breeders state that they will continue to exhibit their dogs as Havanese until the proposed "new breed" is approved, an occurrence that AKC representatives assure us will not happen. 
o HCA Members and Havanese breeders (both foundation breeders and current breeders) stand firmly behind the breed, its development and judges who evaluate our exhibits against the approved HCA breed standard. 

We encourage you to continue to judge to the Standard for the Havanese, as approved by the AKC on May 7, 2001 (effective June 27, 2001) and ask that you question any and all information provided by organizations other than the Havanese Club of America.

We have a committee of volunteers (please see attachment) that will be available to answer any and all questions that you may have regarding this unfortunate development. 

We are confident that our breed, the Havanese, will continue to thrive and demonstrate the lively behavior in the show ring that is so characteristic of our breed.
Sincerely,

James C. Siver
President
Havanese Club of America

Cc:. Mari-Beth O'Neill
Michael Liosis


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## Gableshavs (Jun 19, 2007)

The new group in charge of the HCA is really on the ball, I'm glad they are acting quickly judges need to see that the HSD cannot have the best of both worlds, it's just not fair. 

By the way, have you seen the Health information page on the HCA site, remember DOC was putting the HCA down for not updating that page, now it IS updated and really well done.
Paula


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Ryan, There are two sides to every story, indeed..



> I'm hearing rumors that many who came over to the HSD side are now upset by unfulfilled promises and are not rejoining HSD when time to renew membership.


That rumor is TRUE. I know some people firsthand, that are very disenchanted.. that told me they won't be renewing their memberships and are already making plans to go to the HCA Nationals.



> I really hope this thread doesn't go down the road of previous threads. We've been getting along so well on the forum lately.


I don't want to sound snarky...but I doubt these threads would turn into arguments if it was just the Havanese show people and pet owners talking about it. Like a wise person once told me, you don't have to defend yourself if you haven't done anything wrong. 

Kara


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Ryan, that letter was also published in the Hotline, so it has been out there for a while now.

My feeling is that if they think their dogs are different and have gone as far as forming a new association to register these dogs, then they should noit show them as Havanese. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, the it's a duck!


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

:tape:I'm so happy I have kept my tape on!:tape:ound:


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

:yawn:


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

My son's little league game went extra innings last night. Has anyone ever experienced that with 9 yr olds? Extra Innings in little league?


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

No, but how about track meets. My son and daughter both threw shot. A lot of waiting.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

That's a lot of sitting around waiting to throw the shot. We were out till 10PM......on a school night. Then home to showers and 2nd dinner................


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

I used to drive to the meets after school, grab something to eat, then go and wait for their event...and wait, and wait. Then I would drive home and the same thing. Not get home until 10 or 11 pm. But, I wouldn't trade those days.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Here he is at his 9th b day party. I'm not sure if I posted this.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

While I'm at it.............pics of the dogs.









Jake & Trixie









The other night Jake decided we should set a plate for him too.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

A cutie!! (your son, but the dogs are cute, too).


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

thanks


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## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

Jake got a hair cut. Cute!


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## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

Well said, Kara. This is all so predictable. Now the in-fighting in the HSD camp begins. How do you spell H-U-B-R-I-S?


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Well maybe the HSD people all just need to come visit us on the forum and post in Marj's monthly picture threads, I think that would definitely help everyone! eace: 

Greg you should really get involved since you like to share photos! 

Amanda


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Hey, Jake looks like a puppy again! I love his coat right now. In my mind, I was afraid he was cut down to the skin, but he looks adorable. 

Your son is getting so big so fast!


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Jake is way happier out of his cords. He even acts like a puppy again.

Here's a picture of Diva. We ran her on from our Trixie X Jake litter. She's a year old now. This picture is actually a candid. The background has been grayed out to protect the innocent. We are really proud of her. She took 5 pts at the VA Beach show. We hope to finish her in February at the St Pete show.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

We really don't have any infighting going on. Like any event some feelings get hurt........but it's not much different from any other show I've been to. Plus we are having to learn how to include companion dogs at show events. It isn't easy but we'll figure it out. The most important thing is we want to be inclusive.



Amy R. said:


> Well said, Kara. This is all so predictable. Now the in-fighting in the HSD camp begins. How do you spell H-U-B-R-I-S?


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Jake recently had a girlfriend come visit for a few days. He really romanced her. Here he is giving up his bed for her. This is the first time I've seen Jake "in love."










And here is Jennifer with Dee Dee.

Dee Dee is due to whelp her first litter next week. Jake is the proud daddy.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Greg,
Love the photo of Jake and Trixie. Very cute. 

Susan


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

I was wondering Greg...You seem to only show up when we discuss HSD....Why is that???....We discuss a ton of other things..It is very seldom that HSD comes up. 

Alot of new people come on here and need advice on problems they are having, other breeders like Kathy, Jan, Kimberly and Tom offer up advice they have from breeding and dealing with young pups...Funny, I don't think I have ever seen you on there, offering up advice..

You say you want peace, and you post pictures of your family as some sort of sign of peace...but as soon as someone says something...you are right back on it...

Have you made yourself the offical defender of the HSD on the *HAVANESE* Forum.. Do we get to have one if the HSD gets it's own forum..

You wouldn't mind that would you..


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Hi Paige,

I know I don't post as much as other people. I've probably only posted to 10 different threads in the last few weeks. Maybe you and I just miss each other on different threads.



Paige said:


> I was wondering Greg...You seem to only show up when we discuss HSD....Why is that???....We discuss a ton of other things..It is very seldom that HSD comes up.
> 
> Alot of new people come on here and need advice on problems they are having, other breeders like Kathy, Jan, Kimberly and Tom offer up advice they have from breeding and dealing with young pups...Funny, I don't think I have ever seen you on there, offering up advice..
> 
> ...


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

Tom King said:


> All Havana Silk Dogs do fit the current AKC Havanese Standard.


I think that says it all. What you have is a preference in look not a different breed. The fact that HSD owners show as Havanese and win is further proof.

I think it is totally hypocritical of the people who were so vocal about the fact that they don't breed havanese and put down the breed and breeders are now showing in the very ring they criticized. It disgusts me!

And I don't get why we can't discuss this subject without Greg showing up trying to change the subject by throwing up pictures of his family. Why do we have to change the subject. Remember that HSD breeders are the ones that split off and caused the controversy. This subject is going to keep coming up and it needs to be allowed to be talked through. If you don't like it stay off the thread! There are plenty of threads out there for ooohing and awwwing. There is nothing wrong with people questioning the HSDAA's position and venting about it. If you really are secure with your decisions then it shouldn't bother you.


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

I promised myself I wasn't going to post or comment on any more of Havanese and HSD threads. I will just say that I love the pictures of Greg's dogs and that your son is just beautiful or would handsome be a better word. He has Hollywood written all over him. A new Brad Pitt.


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

I agree that Greg's pictures are beautiful and more than welcome. I am offended that he uses them as a way to change the subject and hijack the thread. He did this on the last one as well.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

He did reply to the topic at hand first. It wasn't like the pictures were just in the middle of some other discussion. Many of these threads take twists and turns and I don't see anyone getting bent out of shape about it. That's the nature of message boards.


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

Havtahava said:


> He did reply to the topic at hand first. It wasn't like the pictures were just in the middle of some other discussion. Many of these threads take twists and turns and I don't see anyone getting bent out of shape about it. That's the nature of message boards.


Kimberly...you are on here defending your friend and this has nothing to to with your friendship with Greg....

It has to do with the fact that it is rude that he only shows up to post on HSD threads and then starts throwing pictues of his family/dogs on the thread....and says he wants peace...but starts up again, as soon as something is said..

He did the same thing the last time...No one else does this but him..

I believe anneks said it very well:
Quote
And I don't get why we can't discuss this subject without Greg showing up trying to change the subject by throwing up pictures of his family. Why do we have to change the subject. Remember that HSD breeders are the ones that split off and caused the controversy. This subject is going to keep coming up and it needs to be allowed to be talked through. If you don't like it stay off the thread! There are plenty of threads out there for ooohing and awwwing. There is nothing wrong with people questioning the HSDAA's position and venting about it. If you really are secure with your decisions then it shouldn't bother you.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

:croc:


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

:yawn:


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

I try never to post on this HSD/Havanese dog thing....but really Greg, I have to totally agree with Paige on this one. I enjoy the pictures of your family also, but there is a photo gallery for sharing pictures.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

:brushteeth:


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

What makes this a a great forum though...I would say even if you feel you have a different breed, this forum still likes pictures of other breeds-we even have people who don't have a havanese posting photos and being active yakkers! Isabelle (my MSD-mini silk dog) feels welcomed too. :grouphug:

Amanda


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Ok guyssss.. lol

Pictures of Gregs family and dogs are great, but still the primary question that got this thread started has not really been answered.. lol

Question was:

Why do the HSD people want to show their HSD dogs in the ring with Havanese at Havanese shows? I thought they wanted to be HSD only? Now you guys want to be Havanese as the HCA show shedules dictates?

And yes yes yes.. I know the HSD's fit the Havanese standard yada yada yada.. yada... Thats not the point! When the HSD's broke off from the Havanese, I'm pretty sure everyone thought they would discontinue showing at Havanese events as well.. As did you, Greg.. your wrote this a few months back..

_"I can only think of 2 or 3 people who are still showing in the AKC ring. I know we continue to write about it on this forum like it's happening all over the place...........but I think it is very few and far between."_


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

ound::tape:ound:


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## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

Julie said:


> ound::tape:ound:


Julie, I'm sooooo proud of you. But hold back too much you may explodeuke:


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Ya know.....it is only going to hurt their overall effort to split, if they keep showing! The judges and AKC are not going to take their plight very seriously. I mean, think about it?

And the reason why the companion event caused so much drama is because the pet owners thought it would be a 'fun, relaxed event', but it was judged very seriously..and dogs that had severe underbites and/or structural problems, or were way over 13 lbs, or tails were on the ground..... were scoffed at. Maybe they should restrict the companion catagory to dogs that don't have any 'flaws', etc. 

Kara


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Replying to Kathy. I copied and pasted her whole message including the part in quotes and my responses, typed in bold red, will follow her questions that were typed in red.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Tom King*  
_I'll reply,

I just do not understand why the HSD wants to show in the HCA? 
answer: The shows are AKC shows and AKC says that Havana Silk Dogs are Havanese at this point. Heck, even we say that we have AKC registered Havanese that are registered as Havana Silk Dogs.

Are these HSD dogs being shown at HCA events so that they can gain experience in the ring? 
*answer: People have all sorts of reasons for showing. Showing started as a way to validate breeding stock. It's many more things than that now. Our dogs are finished and we have never chased points so right now if we show it might be just for the dog's benefit*.Tom, isn't that why HSDAA is having their own shows and supposedly going to show with ARBA?? _
_*I don't understand the question.*

That sounds a bit like you are using the HCA shows to better the HSD? 
answer: hardly

That a pretty 1 sided relationship! Would a Havanese be welcomed at a HSD event in order to gain experience in the ring? If yes, then fine.. but if the answer is no, then I think that's an issue&#8230; 
answer: If the Havanese is registered as a HSD of course it would be welcomed. Just as showing in the AKC ring if the dog has the proper registration it can be shown. In HSD shows the dogs don't need an Unlinited Registration to be shown. Companions can be shownWhich is something I don't understand if showing is meant to prove breeding stock _
_*Why is a better "proving" of breeding stock to allow only showing of offspring that are picked by the breeder and given "Unlimited" registration. It seems much better to me to allow ALL offspring to be put in the ring to be evaluated. In the HSDAA, parents who produce a number of "Excellent" offspring, whether allowed as breeding stock or companions, will be given awards similar to the Havanese ROM and ROMx. Every puppy we have ever produced is now eligible to go in the HSDAA ring and be not only judged in the class, but will get a written evaluation sheet by the judge. It doesn't matter if they are 9 years old and are in a puppy cut. I think that's a really good system. Actually, I'd like it even better if every puppy a breeding pair ever produced to be evaluated and awards given on percentages of excellent puppies produced but I realize that is too much to expect. We welcome any puppy we have ever produced to join us in the companion ring.*

Point 10 of the HSDAA constitution says: To urge members and breeders to accept the Havana Silk Dog standard as the only standard of excellence by which the Havana Silk Dog should be judged.
answer: Yes. And judging in the Havanese ring is to the Havanese Standard.But this isn't a response to point 10, or maybe the word "ONLY" was missed. _
_*Maybe so, but as long as the AKC continues to register them as Havanese they are both Havanese as well as Havana Silk Dogs so to be judged as Havana Silk Dogs they will only use the Havana Silk Dog standard. This is really no different than our Arab horses who are registered as German Oldenburgs. Individual opinions on this are really only opinions. The fact remains that as long as the AKC registers them as Havanese they will remain to be Havanese.*

Well, are the Directors and committee's 'urging' you and others that show at the HCA events to stop this behavior? 
answer: No one is "urging" us to do anything other than some "Havanese people" who have urged us to "crawl under a rock and die."

Point 11 of the constitution says: To urge the American Kennel Club to accept the Havana Silk Dog (registered in its country of origin as the Bichon Habanero) as a breed separate and distinct in both form and character from the Havanese, a purely American breed developed in part from the original dog of Havana.
answer: Yes, but personally I don't really care and have stated that opinion publicly. Huh? you don't care about what? _
_*Yeah, I realized after I hit the post reply button that this wasn't clear but couldnt' get back past the hourglass to edit. I said that I didn't care if the AKC accepted the Havana Silk Dog as a separate breed or not. The system the HSDAA is using is a system I like better anyway. As anxious as the AKC is to increase it's numbers of dogs registered realistically it's not to their advantage to do any changing since right now separating the HSDs out of the Havanese is really just moving numbers from one place to the other. People need to get used to the idea that they will continue to be Havanese or just start requesting otherwise and stop wasting time just complaining.*

This point might be easier to achieve if your fellow members followed point 10. It would definitely make the AKC think the HSDAA is more serious about its goals and objectives.

I realize that the HSD fits the Havanese standard, but honestly, don't you think the HSD members waived their 'right' to show at a HCA event once they declared they are a new superior breed called the HSD and broke off to form said group?
answer: " I don't remember the "superior" part being declared by me. And we haven't waived any rights. 

Having said all this, I really do not know much about the 'dog world', but I do think I have made some interesting and valid points.
answer: As long as the HSDs are continued to be registered as Havanese by the AKC there will continue to be both in the ring. Probably with most of them you won't even know wheter they are or not._

The AKC doesn't choose, the breeder is choosing how the dog should be registered. Both should not be in the ring if one has declared they are a different breed, I don't care how they are registered. Tell us how the vote went this past weekend to change the name of the Blue Ridge Havanese club to Blue Ridge Havana Silk Dog club? Now how is that going off and doing your own thing? 
*There are two breeds in other breed rings too and have been for a while. Personal opinions don't really matter. As long as they can be registered as Havanese with the AKC they will be considered Havanese and can be shown as such. It's not my place to make any announcement about the vote. I do know the results and will be glad to discuss it later. All Regional Clubs are independent clubs from the National Parent Club. The BRHC has from the start been a club of its members who definately do their own thing.*
__________________


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Thumperlove said:


> Ya know.....it is only going to hurt their overall effort to split, if they keep showing! The judges and AKC are not going to take their plight very seriously. I mean, think about it?
> 
> And the reason why the companion event caused so much drama is because the pet owners thought it would be a 'fun, relaxed event', but it was judged very seriously..and dogs that had severe underbites and/or structural problems, or were way over 13 lbs, or tails were on the ground..... were scoffed at. Maybe they should restrict the companion catagory to dogs that don't have any 'flaws', etc.
> 
> Kara


ound:I thought all those "silks" were perfect!Pet or otherwise...you mean they can turn out in-perfect dogs?Like the havs???ound:


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Maybe the plight isn't going good in the first place and so they are on their way back already. If you can't beat em, join em! Or maybe their dogs missed their cousins and signed themselves up for the Havanese show 

Is the companion category to show s/n dogs?


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

quote: 
"And the reason why the companion event caused so much drama is because the pet owners thought it would be a 'fun, relaxed event', but it was judged very seriously..and dogs that had severe underbites and/or structural problems, or were way over 13 lbs, or tails were on the ground..... were scoffed at. Maybe they should restrict the companion catagory to dogs that don't have any 'flaws', etc. "

I missed the scoffing.

Here is a picture of Sunday's judge explaining a point of conformation to a competitor in the lineup in this class using the following dog in the same lineup:

Oops, the Forum couldn't automatically downsize it. I'll try again later.

Overall the Companion judging was very favorably received. No doubt things can get better since this was the first show but I never heard any complaints.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

While we are showing pictures here's the Best of Breed winner in the first HSDAA show. For those that don't know it's Posh. That's Pam on the left and the Mayor of Virginia Beach on the right. There were 64 dogs entered.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Looks like the Forum software is behaving a bit weirdly. I don't know why that picture posted and the one in the previous post didn't. I'll try again.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I've heard quite a few complaints, and a few people did see the judge cringe at a couple of the dogs, which did hurt some feelings, we all love our pets and want them to do well, right. I hope that area gets improved and made into a less 'serious' event.

The breeders know what the judge looks for, but the pet people don't.

Kara


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

quote: "Maybe the plight isn't going good in the first place "


Actually, it's going much better than anyone anticipated and since the new HCA health page is up there is an increased spurt of interest.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Congrats. Posh is beautiful.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Tom King said:


> quote:
> 
> Actually, it's going much better than anyone anticipated and since the new HCA health page is up there is an increased spurt of interest.


Boy,you guys better start popping out the puppies then to fill all the requests(I don't necessarily mean you personally,as a HSD group)


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

Julie said:


> Boy,you guys better start popping out the puppies then to fill all the requests(I don't necessarily mean you personally,as a HSD group)


I wonder if it is lonely at the top:Cry:


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Congrats on your BOB win  Is the Mayor a judge or one of the HSD members?

Amanda


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I actually think the new HCA "Health" page is nice, and the rating system is pretty cool.

I think the HSD should also link the OFFA.ORG site so people can check up on your dogs too.

off topic, but...What is a punctate cataract? Is that a cataract?

Kara


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

I've already answered this question. The thread wasn't about one or two owners continuing to show, but rather why so many showed at one event. That was because they were committed to support the BRHC specialty prior to the breed split. They felt the right thing to do was go back into the ring and support their friends who has worked so hard on the show. Keep in mind the BRHC is primarily made up of people who are also in the HSDAA. For years the BRHC had had a supported event at the show as well as BRHC sponsored events (auctions, fun matches and all that good stuff). We couldn't just hang their friends out to dry. That's all it was. Nothing more.

Of course I thought it was nice to see Silk Dog people supporting their friends who chose to remain with the Havanese and seeing both sets getting along at a show and other fun events.



Beamer said:


> Ok guyssss.. lol
> 
> Pictures of Gregs family and dogs are great, but still the primary question that got this thread started has not really been answered.. lol
> 
> ...


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Okay Kara opened the thread for questions  Are there any non Charly related HSDs, everyone's dog I looked at on the HSD side, he is their dad or grand dad.

Amanda


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

By their nature dog shows are serious events. I do agree, however, that maybe we can change the tenor of the companion dog event so that while the judge evaluates to the same Standard, they can do it in a more relaxed way. Keep in mind we are having to work with Judges who have never judged companion dogs, companion dogs who have never been shown, and many owners who have never shown as well.

I'm sure we'll get the kinks worked out. As you know I've been in contact with many many people about the show and the overwhelming majority loved it. Admittedly a few didn't have as good an experience. But it will get better.



Thumperlove said:


> I've heard quite a few complaints, and a few people did see the judge cringe at a couple of the dogs, which did hurt some feelings, we all love our pets and want them to do well, right. I hope that area gets improved and made into a less 'serious' event.
> 
> The breeders know what the judge looks for, but the pet people don't.
> 
> Kara


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

I doubt (and hope) the HSDs are never as popular as Havanese.



Julie said:


> Boy,you guys better start popping out the puppies then to fill all the requests(I don't necessarily mean you personally,as a HSD group)


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Ryan, a Specialty is a different ball of wax, especially when it comes to the Blue Ridge club. They are a tight-knit group that has a huge get-together each year and it is always around this particular dog show.



> Actually, it's going much better than anyone anticipated and since the new HCA health page is up there is an increased spurt of interest.


Tom, just so I don't assume what you mean, can you explain what you are insinuating?


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

My Dottie is unrelated. I can't offer up any names of dogs I don't own but I've evaluated probably 40 dogs that aren't related to Charly. We have almost 30 foundation dogs/bitches. Only one of which is Charly.



ama0722 said:


> Okay Kara opened the thread for questions  Are there any non Charly related HSDs, everyone's dog I looked at on the HSD side, he is their dad or grand dad.
> 
> Amanda


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Greg,
Were you a car salesman in a former life?You seem to have an answer with a "spin" every time.I'm thinking you should be one,or at least a CRIMINAL defense attorney...that "spin" could earn you bigger bucks then a silk dog ever would!eace:


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Is there somewhere on the HSDAA site that talks about health issues? Other than the fact that their dogs don't have any?


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

> Maybe so, but as long as the AKC continues to register them as Havanese they are both Havanese as well as Havana Silk Dogs so to be judged as Havana Silk Dogs they will only use the Havana Silk Dog standard. This is really no different than our Arab horses who are registered as German Oldenburgs. Individual opinions on this are really only opinions. The fact remains that as long as the AKC registers them as Havanese they will remain to be Havanese.


Actually the dog breeder has to register the dog. AKC receives the paperwork of those who pursue it. So, Tom, does this mean you are going to continue registering your HSDs with AKC as Havanese?


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

nope. I've often thought about getting into law. For the moment I'll stick to the mortgage business...........it has to come back someday. If not I'll head back to school for a Masters in something.


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

Julie said:


> ound::tape:ound:


ound:ound:ound:Julie...I think your tape fell offound:ound:ound:


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

irnfit said:


> Is there somewhere on the HSDAA site that talks about health issues? Other than the fact that their dogs don't have any?


ound:ound:ound:


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Paige said:


> ound:ound:ound:Julie...I think your tape fell offound:ound:ound:


It sure did------it was like Debbie said----uke:It had to come off so I could clean up and laugh!ound:


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

The cool thing about having your own registry, there will be a BIS winner amongst your close friends every time!!!

Amanda


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

Julie said:


> It sure did------it was like Debbie said----uke:It had to come off so I could clean up and laugh!ound:


ound:ound:ound:


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

> Actually, it's going much better than anyone anticipated and since the new HCA health page is up there is an increased spurt of interest.


What an odd statement to make......:suspicious:


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Yall' are funny!

Oh...gosh...Gucci is having a nightmare on my desk right now! She must be dreaming about this thread!!! LOL ound:

K.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

I think McKenna was too last night. She whined in her sleep. She must have just realized that she's a mutt and her half sister isn't! (She has Salemi Charly in her pedigree making her part HSD). 

Susan


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Did Charly just drop out of the sky as the first HSD?


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

ama0722 said:


> The cool thing about having your own registry, there will be a BIS winner amongst your close friends every time!!!
> 
> Amanda


I don't know why,but Amanda this is so funny!ound:


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

mckennasedona said:


> I think McKenna was too last night. She whined in her sleep. She must have just realized that she's a mutt and her half sister isn't! (She has Salemi Charly in her pedigree making her part HSD).
> 
> Susan


Maybe the HSD can provide dog therapy for dogs like Mckenna who are in limbo..ound:


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

I'm not sure I understand this question.



irnfit said:


> Did Charly just drop out of the sky as the first HSD?


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Evidently Charly had quite a few busy years........if they don't watch it,they could have another condondrum like they said about the AZ.line......

I think they need to watch out for all aspects of the dog,not just looking at the straight legs.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

quote: "Actually the dog breeder has to register the dog. AKC receives the paperwork of those who pursue it. So, Tom, does this mean you are going to continue registering your HSDs with AKC as Havanese?"


Yes.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

quote: "Is the Mayor a judge or one of the HSD members?"

She just showed up because she "loves dogs" and I would guess for a photo op. That picture is just one of the many I took at the show. I didn't tke the official pic with the Judge.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

quote: "
The cool thing about having your own registry, there will be a BIS winner amongst your close friends every time!!!

Amanda"

Posh did fairly well in the AKC ring too. The day he got a Group three when he was a puppy he was behind the all time winningest Pek, Toy Poodle, and Italian Greyhound. The Pek went on to win BIS.

If he would ever learn to stand on the table he'd do a lot better.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

quote: "What an odd statement to make......"

Just stating the facts.


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

Tom King said:


> quote: "Actually the dog breeder has to register the dog. AKC receives the paperwork of those who pursue it. So, Tom, does this mean you are going to continue registering your HSDs with AKC as Havanese?"
> 
> Yes.


So...does that make your dogs Havasilkhavanese or Havansehavasilks..

Kinda like a puggle....you can register a pug, but not a puggle..

You can register a Havanese but not a Havasilk dog..


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## Gableshavs (Jun 19, 2007)

irnfit said:


> Did Charly just drop out of the sky as the first HSD?


Here's a link from the person who imported Salemi Charly from Hungary and sold him to Dianne Klumb, Jerome Podell, by the way Jerome refuses to join the silks.

To quote Jerome's website: "Hungarian Born Charly has proven to be the most important import to date. Contributing his combination of the famous 
A Maiden Effort breeding of the Dutch Kennel of Anja Bours 
with the top female of the Hungarian Salemi Kennel of Maria (Ria) and Peter Salamon."
http://havanese.tripod.com/id11.html

Here's the offa link to Salemi Charley's health record.

http://offa.org/display.html?appnum=737839#animal


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

He sure was a "busy boy", wasn't he? Wow, look at all those offspring!


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Thanks for the Charley link. Now I understand.


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## Gableshavs (Jun 19, 2007)

He was tied as the top producing stud dog in 2000. That's quite an accomplishment. I wonder about the health of his offspring, that's something I'd like to research.


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

I think the issue is that when the HSDAA was formed it was pretty much stated that HSD breeders were splitting off because they thought Havanese breeders were breeding unhealthy dogs. HSDAA was going to take their straight legged healthy dogs and go form their own group and show there. They didn't want to be associated with the other havanese breeders. Then they stated it was really because the dogs had a different look so were actually another breed. I agree that some of the HSD dogs have a very distinct look. But they were so critical as if only their dogs could every produce a healthy pup that had it's origions in Cuba. You were mean and spiteful in your words and hurt a lot of people.

If you as a group had said we believe we have a different breed due to looks alone and are interested in exploring this possibility while still maintaining good relations with the HCA none of this would have ever been an issue. You could have your breeding programs such as you do now and still shown in the "havanese" ring with out people getting so defensive about it. You could have worked toward your goals without causing such ill will.

With all the mud slinging the HSDAA did in the very begining you have to expect people to be wary of your motives.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Here's a few "eye" issues in his offspring, but there may be more..this is what I found on a quick look Edited to add, I do not know what they mean!

http://offa.org/display.html?appnum=837956#animal

http://offa.org/display.html?appnum=854635#animal

http://offa.org/display.html?appnum=1082773#animal

http://offa.org/display.html?appnum=1193048#animal

http://offa.org/display.html?appnum=1122787#animal

http://offa.org/display.html?appnum=1123996#animal

http://offa.org/display.html?appnum=1161274#animal

http://offa.org/display.html?appnum=1126881#animal


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I'm gonna try the tape method again.......:tape:


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I just have a hard time thinking they are a seperate breed but rather a line within the havanese breed. I am just beginning all my research on lineage in both havanese and maltese but I am seeing it already and I have no background on breeding anything! I find that I am starting recognize dogs by certain lines (especially tightly bred lines). I then saw Charly in all the HSD lines and that makes sense that they would have a certain look if at least 25 to 50% of their genes are from one dog. There are maltese breeders that you can see a picture of a pup and say that is a "Chrisman" dog but they are a maltese.

Amanda


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Here's a few more:


http://offa.org/display.html?appnum=1039682#animal

http://offa.org/display.html?appnum=1250640#animal

http://offa.org/display.html?appnum=1186118#animal

http://offa.org/display.html?appnum=1237462#animal


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Amanda,

Your mini silk dog is just too cute. My standards also love a lot of attention, although they are not a Hav, so they asked me to post these:


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## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

Oh, I love Standards, Julia. Yours are beauties.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Julia,
What beautiful faces they have. What are their names?

Susan


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Thanks for the compliments Amy and Susan. They look even better in real life, especially since hubby just shaved their faces the other day. The larger cream male is Romeo and the dark apricot (ex red) is my female Brandy.


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## abuelashavanese (Mar 26, 2007)

Thumperlove said:


> Here's a few "eye" issues in his offspring, but there may be more..this is what I found on a quick look
> 
> http://offa.org/display.html?appnum=837956#animal
> 
> ...





Thumperlove said:


> Here's a few more:
> 
> http://offa.org/display.html?appnum=1039682#animal
> 
> ...


*WOW ! You found that many with issues that quick !!*

It appears that if you would remove all of the HSD health records from the Havanese category on OFA then the Havanese health statistics would have a drastic improvement.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

If I was a little brighter, I would get a standard  My old groomer bred them and a few of my friends have them so I do get to play with standards. They are absolutely brillant. They amaze me with how quickly they learn but then they have such a comic side. 

Are yours total retrievers? I forget that side of them but my gfs loves to jump in the water after things... she wanted to kill me at the dog park, I was throwing sticks in the pond and everytime the dog didn't hesitate. Dora and Belle stared at her like ewww that water is gross! She didn't skip a beat though. So much for the girly foo foo side!

Also anyone who can keep up on grooming one is dedicated.... I would have to cord my spoo!

Amanda


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

abuelashavanese said:


> *WOW ! You found that many with issues that quick !!*
> 
> It appears that if you would remove all of the HSD health records from the Havanese category on OFA then the Havanese health statistics would have a drastic improvement.


Well, it took me about 15 minutes to look through them all. I mean, straight legs are important...but so is eyesight! No wonder there is no link to the Offa site.

I'm really glad the HCA put one up, it really helps puppy buyers research the dogs, and it is so simple to do!

Kara


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

juliav said:


> Thanks for the compliments Amy and Susan. They look even better in real life, especially since hubby just shaved their faces the other day. The larger cream male is Romeo and the dark apricot (ex red) is my female Brandy.


They are GORGEOUS!

I have a soft spot for poodles, my mother was a min-poo breeder for years, but I always loved the standards! Great dogs!

Kara


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I don't think there are any perfect lines in regard to health. If anyone is claiming their dogs come from perfectly healthy lines they are full of baloney or totally ignorant. Then again, maybe I'm unaware. 

(I only clicked on a couple but Distichiasis is just an eyelash that is not growing from the usual place. It's not really a health issue.)


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I agree.

Well, maybe if I feel more motivated later I will go edit the thread and separate the catacts from the other stuff (which I don't really know what they mean)

I clicked on 4 of them to find the Distichiasis, but I opened the cataract ones! Odd they would list an eyelash problem on a cerf.

Kara


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## abuelashavanese (Mar 26, 2007)

Havtahava said:


> (I only clicked on a couple but Distichiasis is just an eyelash that is not growing from the usual place. It's not really a health issue.)


It can cause problems for the dog and to repair it requires surgery under general anesthesia. If it is not a health issue, why would OFA bother to record it? --- just askin'


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## Olliesmom (Sep 29, 2006)

I also checked on the PPM - iris to iris as that was in ollies pedigree.....OAF says - not hereditary defect - no vision problems - iris to lens can be a problem tho... seems like they list everything not necc all hereditary problems...


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

That's right, Catherine. 

And if there is a dog out there that has no health issues listed in his/her background, I think it is pretty safe to assume it is because health testing hasn't been done or hasn't been sent in (whether that be to hide results or whatever other reason).

Jonda, some don't cause any problems at all. It is pretty common with Cocker Spaniels, Golden Retrievers, Boxers and Pekingese. There is a Hav in the area that has this and is several years old with no problems. If it rubs on the cornea, it can cause a lot of problems including ulceration.

And PPM has been discussed quite a few times with various groups lately. Some breeds consider it to be hereditary and others don't. CERF doesn't believe it to be hereditary in Havanese.


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## abuelashavanese (Mar 26, 2007)

Havtahava said:


> That's right, Catherine.
> 
> Jonda, some don't cause any problems at all. It is pretty common with Cocker Spaniels, Golden Retrievers, Boxers and Pekingese. There is a Hav in the area that has this and is several years old with no problems. If it rubs on the cornea, it can cause a lot of problems including ulceration.


Thanks Kimberly. I guess the Distichiasis only becomes a problem if surgery is needed which is a different topic.

_But_, I still do not see one ounce of *integrity* in this whole HSD thing and sadly it has nothing at all to do with the dogs.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Kara,

You showed us a bunch of links to dogs with eye lash problems.

You'll find most of the experienced breeders dislike his look, not his health. That's because his is the most health tested havanese/havana silk dog line on the planet. He has more health tested offspring and more CHIC offspring than any other Havanese/Havana Silk Dog.

Usually, when someone in the dog world wants to talk smack about a particular dog, they do it to the dog owner........I'm not sure Diane even knows this Forum exisits..........so why don't you drop her an email and give her a chance to talk to you about her dog rather than just try to point out things you perceive as problems.



Thumperlove said:


> Well, it took me about 15 minutes to look through them all. I mean, straight legs are important...but so is eyesight! No wonder there is no link to the Offa site.
> 
> I'm really glad the HCA put one up, it really helps puppy buyers research the dogs, and it is so simple to do!
> 
> Kara


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Oh, I didn't know that they were all "eyelash" problems? Funny, there are a few names that, ehh? I wasn't exactly pointing out problems to any particular person, just pointing out the 'findings'.

Diane? I'm not sure what your talking about! I stated I in a previous thread I didn't know what all those finding 'meant'. I even asked someone to tell me what a punctate cataract was. Nobody did.

Kara


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

My bad then. To me it appeared you were only picking out the eye problems of one dog...........the one dog that someone asked if it was the first HSD. 

I've just learned if you want to know the straight poop about a dog, talk to the owner.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

I couldn't agree with you more.



Havtahava said:


> That's right, Catherine.
> 
> And if there is a dog out there that has no health issues listed in his/her background, I think it is pretty safe to assume it is because health testing hasn't been done or hasn't been sent in (whether that be to hide results or whatever other reason).
> 
> ...


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I don't know how it is considered talking 'smack' if they are just eyelash problems, and nobody would answer my question several pages back.

I didn't realize there were so many eyelash conditions...someone posted the dogs offa site, and I just looked at the offspring out of curiousity. Its a public site, what's the big deal?

Kara


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

punctate cataract : An incomplete cataract in which there are opaque dots scattered through the lens. Sometimes these go away on their own and are totally different from Juvenile Cataracts.

I guess you'd have to put yourself in her shoes and wonder how you would feel if someone put only adverse findings from the OFA sight into a discussion about your dog. 

It really doesn't matter. Rather than belabor the point, email her and ask about him directly. Heck if you were at the VA Beach show you might have even seen him. He was there. YOu'd probably be surprised that he's only been shown 4-5 times in the last 7 yrs..........very very few people have ever seen him in person and yet so very many people have an opinion about him.


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## jada1938 (Oct 17, 2006)

*Havanese*

I have a lovely two year old female I bought from Greg.
My bitch, an AKC champion, has not been registered with the hsd nor will she be. She was shown as a Havanese and will continue to be a Havanese.
Ann, NH


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I don't have an opinion one way or another. If you say it isn't a big issue then I guess, It isn't..so why would anyone get worked up over it. Isnt' it quite normal for pet folks that research these sites to inquire and ask what these things mean? That's what its there for, right?

K.


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

Yep, that's what they are there for. And if Diane doesn't know the Havanese Forum exists, well then she probably won't be bothered by a discussion of it here.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

> if Diane doesn't know the Havanese Forum exists


Uh huh....  I'll bet if something I was a leader of (such as the Hav/HSD split) generated several hundred pages of emotional posts on this forum SOMEBODY would be emailing me or phoning me to come over and take a look even if I didn't register.


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## abuelashavanese (Mar 26, 2007)

Greg said:


> Ryan,
> 
> At this point I doubt many of us are registering as Havanese at all. Unless someone wants one of my puppies and feels the AKC registration is valuable to them, I won't register as havanese.
> 
> ...


My how the wind blows !


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Jonda,
I was looking for that post.. Could not find it though.. good eye! 

Ryan


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Thumperlove said:


> I don't have an opinion one way or another. If you say it isn't a big issue then I guess, It isn't..so why would anyone get worked up over it. Isnt' it quite normal for pet folks that research these sites to inquire and ask what these things mean? That's what its there for, right?
> 
> K.


It seems like it is THESE PAGES at the OFA site we as pet owners /breeders are encouraged to look at,to get information from.There are alot of different dogs there--no just 1 person's named Diane.
Greg,you're certainly not discouraging people to look are you?

Too bad they don't have a site for underbite/overbite registeries.......


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I didn't even look to see who owned what dog. Couldn't tell ya, I went through it quickly. My work habits serve me well copying and pasting info when I compile data for the SEC.

The breeders are always encouraging us to 'look' at this, so please explain to me how that is 'talking smack' about a dog... You said they are all insignificant "eyelash" problems and 'not a real cataract'.

Kara


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

I don't know why anyone would get worked up over it either. Like I said previously, my bad. I didn't realize you were just researching the breed. I thought you were cherry picking only adverse outcomes. It was all my fault.



Thumperlove said:


> I don't have an opinion one way or another. If you say it isn't a big issue then I guess, It isn't..so why would anyone get worked up over it. Isnt' it quite normal for pet folks that research these sites to inquire and ask what these things mean? That's what its there for, right?
> 
> K.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Greg, I love that picture of Posh (I thought he was a she from the name! sorry). He is beautiful and I see a muzzle that is quite a bit shorter than what I'm used to seeing. It is a thrill to see Jake in his new 'do'! Oh my, he must feel tons lighter and running like the wind with the new cut. What a cute boy! 

Ann, from NH, welcome to the forum! 

Paige and Julie, your comments are either making me gasp or crack up so much, I'm spitting out my water! Honestly!  LOL

Julia, LOVE Brandy and Romeo! Great picture.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

I'm glad you agree with me



Julie said:


> It seems like it is THESE PAGES at the OFA site we as pet owners /breeders are encouraged to look at,to get information from.There are alot of different dogs there--no just 1 person's named Diane.
> Greg,you're certainly not discouraging people to look are you?
> 
> Too bad they don't have a site the underbite/overbite registeries.......


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Jake is way happier. He moves at a million miles an hour now.



marjrc said:


> Greg, I love that picture of Posh (I thought he was a she from the name! sorry). He is beautiful and I see a muzzle that is quite a bit shorter than what I'm used to seeing. It is a thrill to see Jake in his new 'do'! Oh my, he must feel tons lighter and running like the wind with the new cut. What a cute boy!
> 
> Ann, from NH, welcome to the forum!
> 
> ...


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## Gableshavs (Jun 19, 2007)

:tape::tape::tape::tape:I think talkin smack is something the glorious leader of silks can endure, she's very strong, and bright and carismatic, after all so many people followed her when the split occurred. I'm sure nobody can damage that woman's reputation.....it's well established, but the fact is they are not playing fair and after what was said and done I'm surprised they want to join Havanese in AKC shows. 

Was there a Greg sighting in Brooksville last weekend at the show on Sat? Or was that a case of mistaken identity?


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

She really is a lovely bitch too. One of the best looking dogs I've produced (IMHO)



jada1938 said:


> I have a lovely two year old female I bought from Greg.
> My bitch, an AKC champion, has not been registered with the hsd nor will she be. She was shown as a Havanese and will continue to be a Havanese.
> Ann, NH


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Yes I was there. I went to support many of my friends who were showing. I had a great time too. I wish you had come up and introduced yourself. It would have been nice to meet you.

YOu know, I dont' think we need to be talking or posting things about dogs we dont' own. It doesnt' matter what Diane can take or not. If you have a question about someone's dog, take it up with them. It makes much more sense to me than just to post the bad results and not the good results.



Gableshavs said:


> :tape::tape::tape::tape:I think talkin smack is something the glorious leader of silks can endure, she's very strong, and bright and carismatic, after all so many people followed her when the split occurred. I'm sure nobody can damage that woman's reputation.....it's well established, but the fact is they are not playing fair and after what was said and done I'm surprised they want to join Havanese in AKC shows.
> 
> Was there a Greg sighting in Brooksville last weekend at the show on Sat? Or was that a case of mistaken identity?


----------



## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

THe original post was by me.........so i'm not sure what your post means. Can you help?



abuelashavanese said:


> My how the wind blows !


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## abuelashavanese (Mar 26, 2007)

Greg said:


> Ryan,
> 
> At this point I doubt many of us are registering as Havanese at all. Unless someone wants one of my puppies and feels the AKC registration is valuable to them, I won't register as havanese.
> 
> ...





Greg said:


> THe original post was by me.........so i'm not sure what your post means. Can you help?


Maybe you can tell us what it means&#8230;.. it's your post.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

you are the one that reposted it. What do you think the significance is? I mean obviously you felt it had something to do with the current discussion.


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## abuelashavanese (Mar 26, 2007)

Greg said:


> you are the one that reposted it. What do you think the significance is? I mean obviously you felt it had something to do with the current discussion.


Yes, it is in direct contradiction of the current discussion&#8230;. Thank you very much!


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## Gableshavs (Jun 19, 2007)

Dear Greg,

As Ricky said, "Lucy let me 'splain" now the way I see it you guys said you are not registering your dogs as HAVANESE, and in order to put a dog in an AKC show the dog MUST be registered, in this case as HAVANESE, since there is no entry for SILKs your comrads are showing their dogs in the HAVANESE ring and won as a HAVANESE. AND I KNOW MANY WERE ALREADY REGISTERED BEFORE THE SPLIT. I think, according to basic logic, that many people who have SILKS are still registering as Havanese. When you wrote in this forum they would not do that it appears you may be one of the very few that is living by that rule. That's just what I think, now it's your turn. I've got to go fix a meal for my family. See ya ringside.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

And therein lies the problem. I don't have a problem with it, I just think people are not playing fair. If the dogs were registered as Havanese, but now you want to say they are really a different, then you shouldn't show them as Havanese. You have to make up your minds. I understand your explanation about not wanting to leave the BRHC in a bad situation, but that's just a little too easy.


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

Greg....I have a question for you, that I don't think has been asked...

Why are you on this fourm????????

I am on here because I love the *HAVANESE*... I am on here to share pictures...share stories, make hav friends, learn from others, help others, laugh..

I am not on here to defend another breed..but to relish in the wonderful *Havanese*...

Please Greg..give this some thought..and ask yourself...Why am I on here...


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Havtahava said:


> Actually the dog breeder has to register the dog. AKC receives the paperwork of those who pursue it. So, Tom, does this mean you are going to continue registering your HSDs with AKC as Havanese?


Exactly what I was trying to say in my original post. AKC isn't the one saying there is a "new" breed, it is you Tom and several other's. If you have a new breed and you truly feel that you do, then go and do what you need to do, but leave the Havanese out of it. Don't show with Havanese, don't take over local Havanese clubs, who by the way are not independant clubs, don't insult the very breed you came from. They are clubs that had to be approved by HCA. They are clubs that can't become accredited with AKC until they have the parent club approval.

If your local Havanese club decided they didn't want to exist any longer that is fine, then a vote of the membership was needed to do that per your bylaws. Then all monies should be dispersed per your bylaws too. There is no reason the HSDAA couldn't have started their own local club and left the Blue Ridge club for possible Havanese owners if they so wanted, even if it was only 1 person!!!

I am so tired of all of this. Tom, you continue to talk out both sides of your mouth. The ONLY reason you and other's will continue to register your litters with AKC, now this is my opinion only, is so you can sell your puppies and show them as a purebred dog.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Greg said:


> punctate cataract : An incomplete cataract in which there are opaque dots scattered through the lens. Sometimes these go away on their own and are totally different from Juvenile Cataracts.
> 
> I guess you'd have to put yourself in her shoes and wonder how you would feel if someone put only adverse findings from the OFA sight into a discussion about your dog.
> 
> It really doesn't matter. Rather than belabor the point, email her and ask about him directly. Heck if you were at the VA Beach show you might have even seen him. He was there. YOu'd probably be surprised that he's only been shown 4-5 times in the last 7 yrs..........very very few people have ever seen him in person and yet so very many people have an opinion about him.


Greg, 
Once again, you are taking away from what Kara what asking/meaning. This discussion is about this supposed new breed. It has been said many times by HSDAA breeders, that HSD's are healthier then Havanese, I believe Kara was making a point in that HSD's also have health issues.

As Kimberly said, there isn't any pedigree in any breed, this is perfect!!


----------



## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

:clap2::clap2::clap2:


----------



## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

I'm going to have to assume you read several of the posts about supporting the BRHC and the people who worked so hard to put on the specialty. You aren't saying you think we should have just let them do all that work and have nobody show up are you? Are you familar with the BRHC? Do you know who the members are? Do you know who the officers are? Have you ever been to one of their shows?



abuelashavanese said:


> Yes, it is in direct contradiction of the current discussion&#8230;. Thank you very much!


----------



## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

I think you are just guessing because there is no way to know the answer to what you are posting. You already wrote that you know the dogs that were showing were already registered so I can only conclude that either you are guessing others are still registering or you have in your possession our registrations numbers.

I don't know who is doing what. I only know what other Silk Dog breeders tell me and what I do myself.



Gableshavs said:


> Dear Greg,
> 
> As Ricky said, "Lucy let me 'splain" now the way I see it you guys said you are not registering your dogs as HAVANESE, and in order to put a dog in an AKC show the dog MUST be registered, in this case as HAVANESE, since there is no entry for SILKs your comrads are showing their dogs in the HAVANESE ring and won as a HAVANESE. AND I KNOW MANY WERE ALREADY REGISTERED BEFORE THE SPLIT. I think, according to basic logic, that many people who have SILKS are still registering as Havanese. When you wrote in this forum they would not do that it appears you may be one of the very few that is living by that rule. That's just what I think, now it's your turn. I've got to go fix a meal for my family. See ya ringside.


----------



## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

or else it's the truth and you just choose not to believe it. Either way it really doesnt' matter. The event is over. There won't be any more supported events.



irnfit said:


> And therein lies the problem. I don't have a problem with it, I just think people are not playing fair. If the dogs were registered as Havanese, but now you want to say they are really a different, then you shouldn't show them as Havanese. You have to make up your minds. I understand your explanation about not wanting to leave the BRHC in a bad situation, but that's just a little too easy.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

I don't think Kara was making a point. I think she was researching the breed. Why wouldn't you take her at her word?



Kathy said:


> Greg,
> Once again, you are taking away from what Kara what asking/meaning. This discussion is about this supposed new breed. It has been said many times by HSDAA breeders, that HSD's are healthier then Havanese, I believe Kara was making a point in that HSD's also have health issues.
> 
> As Kimberly said, there isn't any pedigree in any breed, this is perfect!!


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Kathy is right Greg.......
Kara's point was health issues.There were posts about health issues......
If she is researching the breed for health issues......it would be no different then researching for havanese.Everyone should,and I think we all agree on that.I don't think Kara gives a rat's ash about someone's dog named Diane...Like she said before she has friends with HSD pets.I think you maybe paranoid and reading more into it that what she actually was posting.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

I think you are wrong Julie. I think Kara was researching, just like she said. She's always been nice to me and has always sent me nice little PMs. If she says she was researching then I'll stand by that and say she was researching. Who are we to say she wasn't? I don't think I'm paranoid even if everyone IS out to get me <grin>


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Kara is a big girl, Im sure she can tell us what she meant. She sends me nice PM's too. 

People are not out to get you. But your trying to justify and make sense of everything the HSD has done on a HAVANESE board. Forgive us if the events left us a tad insulted. Not to mention the constant BS that spills out. How many Havanese only people are on your forums trying to say we are right?


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

My "out to get me" comment was a joke. That's why I put a <grin> after it. I was hoping people would see it as self depreciating humor.

<sarcasm>

Then again when they are out to get you, people tend to overlook the obvious for ulterior motives.

</sarcasm>


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Well my tolerance level today with anything is ZERO. Surely you weren't implying I was overlooking the obvious for ulterior motives... thats why you put that second /sarcasm?

I have seen many people tell someone to go screw themselves with a great big happy face, so yea, sometimes I over look those.

<GRIN>


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

You know I've sat here tonight wondering why anyone really cares if HSDs show in AKC shows as Havanese. Or why anyone cares that some HSDs are registered with the AKC as Havanese. The only thing I can come up with is that they think there should be some sort of penalty for wanting to start a new breed. Is that it?


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Greg, you cant be serious. I think you read and only hear what you want. 

You are the spin master. Post some more cute family pics so you can change the subject again.


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

You know Greg..I have sat here wondering why you are still posting...The only thing I came up with is..you like to start crap...Is that it??


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

:brick:


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Greg did you start the HSD forum? Can we go over there and post?


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Melissa Miller said:


> Greg did you start the HSD forum? Can we go over there and post?


ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!! :croc:


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Maybe instead of talking about the this forum, they will invite us to theirs now eep:

Amanda


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Greg, thats exactly it... You and the other HSD people have created a new breed called HSD. So the real question is then: Why do the HSD people want to also be Havanese? No one is stopping you from being HSD, but yes, you are right, you are getting alot of resistance about wanting to also be havanese.


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

My spin on the entire situation is there are people out there who truly feel that their dogs, testing & long range goals are so different from the HCA that they had to go in a different direction. And that is fine, that is the way many of the breeds started. 

The problem is the words that were said and written about the Havanese breed. Now the reason for showing to support an entry, I understand about building points but what about the Specials? Why were they entered? You do not breed outside of the Silks right? 

I doubt anyone has a problem showing against the Silks, if you are correct in their differences then they should never win, but they will. Again what would be your reasoning for showing and receiving a championships in a breed you are trying to disassociate yourselves from? 

I would guess, the Silks’ owners realize in the US the main club is the AKC, if they do not register their litters they will have no foundation for selling puppies to the main population as pure bred dogs. Also if the Silks do not make the statement and build the breed they are trying to make, without AKC registration they will have nothing other than designer dogs.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Thumperlove said:


> Ya know.....it is only going to hurt their overall effort to split, if they keep showing! The judges and AKC are not going to take their plight very seriously. I mean, think about it?
> 
> And the reason why the companion event caused so much drama is because the pet owners thought it would be a 'fun, relaxed event', but it was judged very seriously..and dogs that had severe underbites and/or structural problems, or were way over 13 lbs, or tails were on the ground..... were scoffed at. Maybe they should restrict the companion catagory to dogs that don't have any 'flaws', etc.
> 
> Kara


Health issue in the HSD?


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Julie said:


> ound:I thought all those "silks" were perfect!Pet or otherwise...you mean they can turn out in-perfect dogs?Like the havs???ound:


I'm talking health here Greg..........


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Thumperlove said:


> I actually think the new HCA "Health" page is nice, and the rating system is pretty cool.
> 
> I think the HSD should also link the OFFA.ORG site so people can check up on your dogs too.
> 
> ...


Health issue Greg............


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

irnfit said:


> Is there somewhere on the HSDAA site that talks about health issues? Other than the fact that their dogs don't have any?


Health issue Greg...............


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Julie said:


> Evidently Charly had quite a few busy years........if they don't watch it,they could have another condondrum like they said about the AZ.line......
> 
> I think they need to watch out for all aspects of the dog,not just looking at the straight legs.


Health issue Greg................


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

abuelashavanese said:


> *WOW ! You found that many with issues that quick !!*
> 
> It appears that if you would remove all of the HSD health records from the Havanese category on OFA then the Havanese health statistics would have a drastic improvement.


Health issues Greg..........


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Julie said:


> Kathy is right Greg.......
> Kara's point was health issues.There were posts about health issues......
> If she is researching the breed for health issues......it would be no different then researching for havanese.Everyone should,and I think we all agree on that.I don't think Kara gives a rat's ash about someone's dog named Diane...Like she said before she has friends with HSD pets.I think you maybe paranoid and reading more into it that what she actually was posting.


I stand by this............I am right........I was talking with her at the time of her posts......eace:
Guess what?She Pm's me "nice little notes too"!


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Greg said:


> I think you are wrong Julie. I think Kara was researching, just like she said. She's always been nice to me and has always sent me nice little PMs. If she says she was researching then I'll stand by that and say she was researching. Who are we to say she wasn't? I don't think I'm paranoid even if everyone IS out to get me <grin>


Greg,
I just went through this entire thread and pulled out instances of health related issues referring in "chatter" between all the other crap.I think I'm right--you are paranoid dude!I just was shown your own HS group forum.......maybe you can stir up some more negativity there on that forum.Talk about ridiculous.........too bad we are not going to be your whipping boys here.:fish::fish::fish:


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

You know this thread has really opened my eyes and I've learned something new:

Apparently I'm the only one that Kara doesn't send nice little PMs to! :hurt:


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Lina,
I am on the outs too! Maybe Kara should be nice to us, we could be passing out the puppies from Kimberly's next litter!:whoo:

Amanda


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

SMARTY said:


> My spin on the entire situation is there are people out there who truly feel that their dogs, testing & long range goals are so different from the HCA that they had to go in a different direction. And that is fine, that is the way many of the breeds started.
> 
> The problem is the words that were said and written about the Havanese breed. Now the reason for showing to support an entry, I understand about building points but what about the Specials? Why were they entered? You do not breed outside of the Silks right?
> 
> ...


:thumb::clap2::thumb:


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

ound: Julie, I think your tape fell off again ound:

I have to go send Amanda & Lina some nice little PM's now.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Whoa! lol

Greg, the only PM's you've sent me are to *ask about the Fiesta*. You and Tom hung around the forum for 2-3 days after the Fiesta *tracking my posts* to see if I would run here and post anything about it! I'm not 12!

I'm pretty sure you didn't want any hav owners around, but since there wasn't a sign at the park that said "No Havs Allowed", I assumed it would be okay to go cheer on a few 'pets' and their owners who were really *excited *about showing them.

Now, when I didn't mention 2 peeps about it, because this is the "Havanese" forum, and I figured nobody gave two hoots, you PM'd me to ask about it and how to 'make it better in the future' because you had *already heard* some of your silk people were upset, right? Oh, and you did PM me to ask if I was going....and I think you also PM'd me over an opinion I had regarding the pet owners getting dragged into this fighting, which I don't agree with..! Nor do a few of your pet owners! Lets see, that was atleast 2 months ago, so I'm sure I don't have that because I get alot of PM's here every day.

And I know for a fact that we have a mutual friend that told you already what could be 'fixed' to make a better Fiesta, and I'm sure she's even more thorough explaining it to you than I could be.

As far as looking up all that offspring, well.......I guess a dog that has bred that many dogs to breed, maybe I just wondered if it was indeed the perfect specimen? Why else would anyone breed a dog that much unless it was 'all that'. I didn't even know who owned the dogs, or offspring, and it doesnt' even matter. Just that there are any finding, whether they are _eyelash issues_, or the dog has 3 legs and 4 ears..

I thought the 'better' health was a big reason for this 'split'? If the results aren't bad, then why is anyone mad over it? I don't get it? Any_ potetial buyer_ can look that up, and I'd presume unless they are a vet-opthamologist, they would have to come ask people, maybe even on a forum what those things 'mean'.

Kara


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Lina said:


> You know this thread has really opened my eyes and I've learned something new:
> 
> Apparently I'm the only one that Kara doesn't send nice little PMs to! :hurt:


OHH Gawd!!!!!!!!  :kiss: :grouphug: :kiss: :grouphug:

Honey, don't misread into that! I always try to answer my PM's and the ones from Greg were q's about the Fiesta, usually they are questions about products I mention, or quilt donations, or quilt q's, or clothes I make, etc.  I will have to send you a really juicy PM today! lol

hugs,
Kara


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

ama0722 said:


> Lina,
> I am on the outs too! Maybe Kara should be nice to us, we could be passing out the puppies from Kimberly's next litter!:whoo:
> 
> Amanda


Oh bologny and salami and pepperoni! I encouraged you to add Mikey to the pack!!LOL :kiss:

Umm....Gosh, I figured yall' got enough my nonsense on the forum! lol

guilt trip! Ack!
Kara


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## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

My head is still spinning, but I think it all boils down to *"They want their Cake and eat it too!!!!!"*

:canada:Happy to be Canadian :canada:


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Thanks for your honesty. That's what I thought. I doubt there's anything I can do about it though.



Beamer said:


> Greg, thats exactly it... You and the other HSD people have created a new breed called HSD. So the real question is then: Why do the HSD people want to also be Havanese? No one is stopping you from being HSD, but yes, you are right, you are getting alot of resistance about wanting to also be havanese.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

I think you are mostly right. The split could have been handled differently on both sides.

As for the Specials, some people dont' own puppies.....they own finished dogs. This wasn't to build points it was to support the hard work the people put into a supported entry show weekend.



SMARTY said:


> My spin on the entire situation is there are people out there who truly feel that their dogs, testing & long range goals are so different from the HCA that they had to go in a different direction. And that is fine, that is the way many of the breeds started.
> 
> The problem is the words that were said and written about the Havanese breed. Now the reason for showing to support an entry, I understand about building points but what about the Specials? Why were they entered? You do not breed outside of the Silks right?
> 
> ...


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Julie said:


> And the reason why the companion event caused so much drama is because the pet owners thought it would be a 'fun, relaxed event', but it was judged very seriously..and dogs that had severe underbites and/or structural problems, or were way over 13 lbs, or tails were on the ground..... were scoffed at. Maybe they should restrict the companion catagory to dogs that don't have any 'flaws', etc.
> 
> Health issue in the HSD?


Julie these aren't health issues. These are what are called conformation issues.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Julie said:


> Originally Posted by Julie
> I thought all those "silks" were perfect!Pet or otherwise...you mean they can turn out in-perfect dogs?Like the havs???
> 
> I'm talking health here Greg..........


This isn't a health issue. This is you appearing facetious


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I think a severe underbite and possibly not being able to eat is a health issue..and an eyelash growing some wierd place out of the eye requiring surgery,though maybe not severe to you--------would be a health issue to a pet owner.

Go ahead and put a spin on it Greg-----call it whatever you want----but a person with a normal brain cell is going to think it IS a health issue.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Julie said:


> Originally Posted by Thumperlove
> I actually think the new HCA "Health" page is nice, and the rating system is pretty cool.
> 
> I think the HSD should also link the OFFA.ORG site so people can check up on your dogs too.
> ...


This isn't all about a health issue either Julie. THis is partly a comment about a "health" page that talks about awards rather than health issues. In fact many HCA members are concerned it gives the wrong impression in that many of the statistics are wrong.......not to mention they only count SUBMITTED instances. What about those that don't submit bad results? The only health issues was about a punctate cataract. Why didn't you answer her question about the punctate?


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Julie said:


> Originally Posted by irnfit
> Is there somewhere on the HSDAA site that talks about health issues? Other than the fact that their dogs don't have any?
> 
> Health issue Greg...............


This isn't a health issue either. This is a question about a website. I guess if we had a page about our awards for health testing we'd be considered to have discussed health issues???? Just checking


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

GREG--
YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT:fish:
I'm showing you we were posting about different health issues in the thread-------no specific health issues .We WERE TALKING HEALTH OF THE HSD.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Julie said:


> Originally Posted by Julie
> Evidently Charly had quite a few busy years........if they don't watch it,they could have another condondrum like they said about the AZ.line......
> 
> I think they need to watch out for all aspects of the dog,not just looking at the straight legs.
> ...


This isn't a health issue either. This is a comment about Charly being used as a stud. It is also your opinion CD is only one part of what should be considered when looking at a dog. I guess you haven't read much of the health research have you? Did you know that one of the most respected Canine Genetics Labs in the US published a Peer Reviewed Paper in one of the most respected Genetics Journals in the world...........in a nutshell it said that those health issues you care so much about run together and are associated with CD. So if you breed away from CD you can also breed away from those health issues that group with it. Before you get your blood pressure up........breeding away doesn't mean you never have those problems..........it means the occurance get further and further away


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Julie, heaven knows I'm not always right........but the facts don't support your position. 

Underbites/Overbites for the most part aren't health issues, they are conformation issues. They are common in all breeds. In fact dogs don't need their teeth in the first place. Other than kibble they swallow their food whole. Their teeth are for tearing not grinding.

An eyelash growing out of a weird place isn't a health issue either. Even CERF wont' fail a dog for a misplaced eyelash. YOu know this too because Kimberly posted as much. You just want to push your agenda.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Julie said:


> Originally Posted by abuelashavanese
> WOW ! You found that many with issues that quick !!
> 
> It appears that if you would remove all of the HSD health records from the Havanese category on OFA then the Havanese health statistics would have a drastic improvement. Health issues Greg..........


This isn't a health issue either Julie. This is someone making a funny comment that isn't based upon fact.


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

Hey HAVANESE fourm members:

Here is a website I thought you'll might find interesting...

Havanasilkdogseastcoast..yahoo group..enjoy

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/havanasilkdogsEastCoast/messages/1?l=1

Of course my favorite

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/havanasilkdogsEastCoast/message/24


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

OMG Paige

I'm sorry but that just made me sick uke:


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

That literally made me nauseous. I'm speechless right now.

K.


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## Gableshavs (Jun 19, 2007)

Greg, 

Many people who really do know about Havanese, have said that study was skewed and the sample of subjects was stacked by D & D. Do your research, stop playing dumb.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Besides Doc & Diane here are the other people who did the research, presented the paper, submitted it for peer reveiw and then published it in the Journal of Heredity:

Department of Pathobiology, College of Veterinary Medicine and Biomedical Sciences, Texas A&M University, College Station, TX 77843-4467 (Starr and Murphy); the Department of Animal Science, University of California, Davis, CA 95616-8521 (Famula); the Department of Genetic Epidemiology, Pennington Biomedical Research Center, Baton Rouge, LA 70808 (Markward

Frankly, I'm going to believe these respected scientists and their schools before I'm going to believe someone who wasn't involved.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

This is making me very sad & upset. What is the need for nasty words and insults??


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## Gableshavs (Jun 19, 2007)

The breeders that I associate myself with all health test extensively. They do not breed dogs with bad fronts and try to avoid bad bites, one testicle, SA (a painful skin disease) and cataracts also the short hair gene. I'm doing research extensively because I plan to breed Mari some day and I'm checking the stud dog's parents and grand parents as well as siblings. I've called breeders from the best lines and they all will give advice, good advice. This is how we learn. They have lovely dogs and stay with the Havanese breed. Yes there are some irresponsible breeders out there but shoot I'm not breeding to their dogs. My mentors are teaching me the good from the bad and these people know who to avoid and who to go to. My girl is a Havanese with a great front and after today when we do her hip certification I'll know whether I want to breed her. I am being taught to look for anything humanly possible that could go wrong and avoid that, leaving the other stuff to mother nature. There is no perfect dog (except those belonging to us on this list) but you have to look hard to find the best one possible. Some of the afore mentioned issues do not effect health but the breeders who mentor me believe in breeding for the betterment of the breed, and that's what they are doing. They love their Havanese and are not about the bottom line.


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

I want everyone to see my email that I sent our fellow fourm member Marsha(marbenv), in response to http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/havanasilkdogsEastCoast/message/24 ...I wanted to make sure..that my words couldn't be twisted..

Marsha...I didn't know you were with hsd..I didn't tell you who Preston's breeder...sire or dam was because I didn't feel it was any of your business...plain and simple...They are very good people and I would never want them harassed by anyone....So please from now on...don't mention my Preston or feel sorry for him....He is fine...You should know that there is no test to determine if a dog will have this or not...his legs were perfectly straight as a pup and so are his parents...My vet said it can be gentic or caused from a puppy hurting his leg and it healing wrong..Let's just say I will let my vet diagnose my dog...not the hsd.

To think that you can control nature, with all the testing in the world is foolish......You will find sickness and defects in every living thing....

I hope your time on the forum has come to a end...It is a HAVANESE forum not a hsd fourm....
Paige 
Preston's Mom..
A proud HAVANESE Mom...


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

YOu are exactly right. I think you are approaching this in the correct fashion. I wish you all the best.



Gableshavs said:


> The breeders that I associate myself with all health test extensively. They do not breed dogs with bad fronts and try to avoid bad bites, one testicle, SA (a painful skin disease) and cataracts also the short hair gene. I'm doing research extensively because I plan to breed Mari some day and I'm checking the stud dog's parents and grand parents as well as siblings. I've called breeders from the best lines and they all will give advice, good advice. This is how we learn. They have lovely dogs and stay with the Havanese breed. Yes there are some irresponsible breeders out there but shoot I'm not breeding to their dogs. My mentors are teaching me the good from the bad and these people know who to avoid and who to go to. My girl is a Havanese with a great front and after today when we do her hip certification I'll know whether I want to breed her. I am being taught to look for anything humanly possible that could go wrong and avoid that, leaving the other stuff to mother nature. There is no perfect dog (except those belonging to us on this list) but you have to look hard to find the best one possible. Some of the afore mentioned issues do not affect health but the breeders who mentor me believe in breeding for the betterment of the breed, and that's what they are doing. They love their Havanese and are not about the bottom line.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Gableshavs said:


> Greg,
> 
> Many people who really do know about Havanese, have said that study was skewed and the sample of subjects was stacked by D & D. Do your research, stop playing dumb.


Paula,

I often wondered why someone would go so far to have x-rays done.

http://havaneseforum.com/showpost.php?p=44094&postcount=132


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Have you thought to ask me?



Leeann said:


> Paula,
> 
> I often wondered why someone would go so far to have x-rays done.
> 
> http://havaneseforum.com/showpost.php?p=44094&postcount=132


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## Gableshavs (Jun 19, 2007)

I have to add one more thought before I take Mari for Xrays and that is that my girls is every bit the beauty. If I were one of the people to go to the silk side I'd embrace that totally and stay out of the Havanese ring. I'd work to build my new breed with enthusiasm, and I just can't accept that they still want to compete against Havanese, it's not something I would do because I don't consider it to be ethical.
Wish us luck, we're out the door.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

good luck.

I'm with you. I don't show AKC. But I do attend shows to see friends


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## jillnors2 (Apr 12, 2007)

No dog line is perfect. I know an Elfin dog with Cataracts so NO line is flawless.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Greg,
You can put your spin on all of this--but the bottom line is a HSD that has a severe underbite/overbite and needs surgery to correct his eyelashes etc.is a screwed up dog!That my not be a health concern to those of you who pop them out for a premium,but it sure as hell is to a pet owner.You still miss the point of Kara's post,but that's ok.Maybe you need more fresh air or a pill.It's not alot different then the Hitler comment in another thread.
If your HSD group of nasty negative people need more material to bash on,maybe they should start at one of your fiestas.I don't know why I am even wasting my time trying to explain something to someone as hard headed and full of crap as you seem to be.You are paranoid and totally full of yourself---how sad.........


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Well if the good sportsmanship on their website isn't taken seriously, who knows what is....


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

This thread definitely opened my eyes to alot of things! As I sure it has for alot of people who read and don't always post on some of these threads.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Gee Julie, it didn't take long to show your true colors did it? I've refrained from calling you names or insulting you. Why do you seem to feel the need to be insulting?

I don't have spin. I have facts....whereas you have emotion and insults. It really is sad.

For the record, I never said bad bites weren't bad. I said they weren't health issues. Dog people will tell you a dog doesn't run on its mouth. We don't put bad bites in the same catagory as CD for instance. Distichiasis isn't good either. But as Kimberly posted, they aren't uncommon and ususally don't negatively affect the dog. When they do you can have surgery to fix it. I wonder why you focus on these two issues? Aren't you concerned with the reports of serious health problems here on the forum? CD and liver shunts come to mind.



Julie said:


> Greg,
> You can put your spin on all of this--but the bottom line is a HSD that has a severe underbite/overbite and needs surgery to correct his eyelashes etc.is a screwed up dog!That my not be a health concern to those of you who pop them out for a premium,but it sure as hell is to a pet owner.You still miss the point of Kara's post,but that's ok.Maybe you need more fresh air or a pill.It's not alot different then the Hitler comment in another thread.
> If your HSD group of nasty negative people need more material to bash on,maybe they should start at one of your fiestas.I don't know why I am even wasting my time trying to explain something to someone as hard headed and full of crap as you seem to be.You are paranoid and totally full of yourself---how sad.........


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Why aren't you concerned about your issues?
Go be concerned about YOUR issues.......

You wonder why people get upset?You are arrogant.You think you are perfect and breed only healthy dogs---buddy you need to get a grip and a reality check.

I can't help that someone on here or anyplace else buys a tiny little bred down unhealthy dog.That to me,is sad,but it is their ignorance.You are attacking me,based on someone's dog having CD,or a liver shunt?Get real dude.I didn't buy the dog.:brick:

I think we've all seen your colors right from the start........They all know mine...I don't have to hide mine............................................................................................


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

I have a idea..how about from now on nobody addresses Greg...all we have to do is put him on our ignore list and we can openly talk about hsd vs havanese issues without seeing his responses and he will be talking to himself....and we can do the same with any other hsd member that becomes a problem....then maybe...if we are lucky they will go and start their own forum

Oh..and a little birdie told me you might want to put juniormint on your ignore list to

Who's with me....

Then we can have eacen our HAVANESE forum


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

I am concerned about MY issues. And I still don't stoop to being insulting or name calling.

I never said I or anyone else only breeds perfect dogs. I just said bad bites weren't health issues.



Julie said:


> Why aren't you concerned about your issues?
> Go be concerned about YOUR issues.......
> 
> You wonder why people get upset?You are arrogant.You think you are perfect and breed only healthy dogs---buddy you need to get a grip and a reality check.
> ...


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I just think it goes to show the clear difference between the two breeds isn't anything you see in the dog rather it is in the people who own them. At the HAVANESE forum, we encourage you to post about your dog's health or conformation issues to educate each other, also educating new people interested in the breed rather than cover it up or get upset when someone researches health issues. We also welcome you to come post pictures of your dog, family, etc. If that isn't friendly enough we have monthly photo challenges, a quilt for the parent club being created, and puppy play dates where EVERYONE is invited! It doesn't matter if you bought a pup when you weren't educated on the breed health problems, purchased your dog through a rescue, have a dog from a great breeder, or you don't even have a Havanese, and here, if we talk about you... it is probably how we are devising a plan to steal your puppies 

Amanda (who can see the difference now!)


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

ama0722 said:


> I just think it goes to show the clear difference between the two breeds isn't anything you see in the dog rather it is in the people who own them. At the HAVANESE forum, we encourage you to post about your dog's health or conformation issues to educate each other, also educating new people interested in the breed rather than cover it up or get upset when someone researches health issues. We also welcome you to come post pictures of your dog, family, etc. If that isn't friendly enough we have monthly photo challenges, a quilt for the parent club being created, and puppy play dates where EVERYONE is invited! It doesn't matter if you bought a pup when you weren't educated on the breed health problems, purchased your dog through a rescue, have a dog from a great breeder, or you don't even have a Havanese, and here, if we talk about you... it is probably how we are devising a plan to steal your puppies
> 
> Amanda (who can see the difference now!)


So very well said.:clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2:


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

eace: Amanda - you just summed it all up!!! eace:


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

That ignore list is SOOOOOOO COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. Love, love, love it!!!!!



Don't break my heart, my icky slicky heart. Billy Ray should think about recording that. ound:


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

Great post Amanda!


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Oh my Gosh Dawna - you are not kidding!!! That ignore is SOOO COOOL! Now I feel I can be in a happier environment which is what I think you and Melissa intended for this forum~~ Thanks.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Ickys........Puhleese! Oh wait, maybe we need to form a club, the Ickys. We can have jackets made just like the Pink Ladies from Grease. We're going to have lots of jackets what with Club Fritos and Club Ickys.


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

That's my Amanda!  You go girl!!! :clap2:


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Greg said:


> This isn't a health issue either. This is a comment about Charly being used as a stud. It is also your opinion CD is only one part of what should be considered when looking at a dog. I guess you haven't read much of the health research have you? Did you know that one of the most respected Canine Genetics Labs in the US published a Peer Reviewed Paper in one of the most respected Genetics Journals in the world...........in a nutshell it said that those health issues you care so much about run together and are associated with CD. So if you breed away from CD you can also breed away from those health issues that group with it. Before you get your blood pressure up........breeding away doesn't mean you never have those problems..........it means the occurance get further and further away


Now Greg, that is YOUR opinion of the paper. The paper even says that study was NOT CONCLUSIVE and the more dogs added to the study the percentages went down. Oh, and what is the percentage of dogs used in the study that had Charly in the pedigree and already had known health issues?? The "syndrome" is one that was made up by D & D. I am not knocking the study, so don't go telling folks that is what it is being said, I am saying your interpretation is not 100% accurate.


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

Kathy...what do you mean about the syndrome???

Are you talking about how if they have bowed legs, that other problems come along with that?


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Oh yes, I found that yahoo link so interesting also. Im pretty sure I was one of the ones who coined the dark side. But Im an ignorant Havanese owner. hehe

Icky Melissa loves the ignore feature too.


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## abuelashavanese (Mar 26, 2007)

mckennasedona said:


> Ickys........Puhleese! Oh wait, maybe we need to form a club, the Ickys. We can have jackets made just like the Pink Ladies from Greese. We're going to have lots of jackets what with Club Fritos and Club Ickys.




MoJo came running when he heard there is talk of club action here.



He wants to remind everybody that he is experienced in the leg checking department. He is the official self-proclaimed Fritos Leg Checker and will offer his services to all of the new clubs.

Line Up Ladies!


It's


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Dawna said:


> That ignore list is SOOOOOOO COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. Love, love, love it!!!!!
> 
> Don't break my heart, my icky slicky heart. Billy Ray should think about recording that. ound:


Dawna, LOLOLOL, Icky, Slicky Havanese, funny, yet they want to still register as Icky Slicky Havanese?

It is all about CONTROL and MARKETING, still!!! The health issues business is only a smoke screen, as "their" dogs came from the same pedigree's as all of our's and have the same genes.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Those are easy things to say to deflect the premise of the study. What are the chances those esteemed universities used poor data or weighted their research on one line? Do you belive it would get thru a Peer Review? Do you think those PHDs whoud add their names to it if the basic data was prejudiced? Maybe rather than questioning me on the forum you would get your answers by asking Murph or Alison? I mean they know the answers, not me. They did present that the "syndrome" did in fact exisit.

Since my interpretation isn't 100% accurate, maybe you should share your interpretation? That way we could balance them?



Kathy said:


> Now Greg, that is YOUR opinion of the paper. The paper even says that study was NOT CONCLUSIVE and the more dogs added to the study the percentages went down. Oh, and what is the percentage of dogs used in the study that had Charly in the pedigree and already had known health issues?? The "syndrome" is one that was made up by D & D. I am not knocking the study, so don't go telling folks that is what it is being said, I am saying your interpretation is not 100% accurate.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Paige said:


> Kathy...what do you mean about the syndrome???
> 
> Are you talking about how if they have bowed legs, that other problems come along with that?


Paige,
I call it the Oshkosh syndrome, but I believe the real name Diane put to it was Okrham (sp) syndrome. Yes, the theory was that if you have a dog with bowed legs, it would have other health issues too. Funny though how dogs can have cataracts and not be bowed, or have liver shunts and not be bowed!! lol


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

Kathy you are so right. _* Marketing and control, pure and simple.*_ From the very beginning. 
And WHY for the love of Pete, would anyone want to be on an icky HAVANESE Forum....that is what it's called ,by the way, is THE HAVANESE FORUM....if they are no longer interested in breeding/showing/registering havanese? OH WAIT, I forgot, they still want to do all that stuff.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Greg said:


> Maybe rather than questioning me on the forum you would get your answers by asking Murph or Alison? I mean they know the answers, not me. They did present that the "syndrome" did in fact exisit.
> 
> Since my interpretation isn't 100% accurate, maybe you should share your interpretation? That way we could balance them?


Greg,
I did have a conversation with "Murph" in Denver. He is the one that told me the study is not conclusive.

How many scientists have you known personally that have written papers? Just because a paper is written, doesn't make it fact.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Kathy said:


> It is all about CONTROL and MARKETING, still!!! The health issues business is only a smoke screen, as "their" dogs came from the same pedigree's as all of our's and have the same genes.


If it's about a smoke screen and marketing, are you in agreement with the information up on the HCA Health Web page? Do you believe the percentages that are on the website are accurate? is there a disclaimer that the percentages only represent those that reported to OFA? Does it say that many people with failed or unwanted health results don't report them? How about the LCP? At least 2 HCA members have called that into question by saying they reported problems in their dogs and yet the HCA reports 100% normal?

And what about CD? the new health page doens't mention it. Why would that be? I mean a huge health study.....published in esteemed journals.......and no mention? Maybe because you can't sell puppies if everyone thinks they may be subject to health problems? I'd like to know your position on the information held on that page........not about the awards but about the health info.


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

Kathy said:


> Paige,
> I call it the Oshkosh syndrome, but I believe the real name Diane put to it was Okrham (sp) syndrome. Yes, the theory was that if you have a dog with bowed legs, it would have other health issues too. Funny though how dogs can have cataracts and not be bowed, or have liver shunts and not be bowed!! lol


The reason I ask is because, when I took Preston to the vet for x-rays, I told him I understood that other problems would come from this...

He said no..that was not true..

He said dogs like bulldogs were bred to have legs like Preston's..


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

I know it isn't conclusive yet. Did you ask him if he believed it?

I've known quite a few scientists. Heck I know several of the ones in this study. Do you believe any of them put this out there because they don't believe it?



Kathy said:


> Greg,
> I did have a conversation with "Murph" in Denver. He is the one that told me the study is not conclusive.
> 
> How many scientists have you known personally that have written papers? Just because a paper is written, doesn't make it fact.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Greg said:


> If it's about a smoke screen and marketing, are you in agreement with the information up on the HCA Health Web page? Do you believe the percentages that are on the website are accurate? is there a disclaimer that the percentages only represent those that reported to OFA? Does it say that many people with failed or unwanted health results don't report them? How about the LCP? At least 2 HCA members have called that into question by saying they reported problems in their dogs and yet the HCA reports 100% normal?
> 
> And what about CD? the new health page doens't mention it. Why would that be? I mean a huge health study.....published in esteemed journals.......and no mention? Maybe because you can't sell puppies if everyone thinks they may be subject to health problems? I'd like to know your position on the information held on that page........not about the awards but about the health info.


Yes, I agree with adding more health testing. Since you aren't a member of HCA you would have no idea the discussion taking place and the explanation on why, would you Greg? Except that you are listening to other's interpretation. The idea is to encourage ALL breeders to report both positive and negative so accurate numbers can be had, so then we know what is really a potential health issue in the breed. Everyone knows Greg, that the number on OFA are not 100% for the very reason's you listed so that is why OFA is now willing to not charge our members for turning in negative results.

As for not having CD listed, that is because there isn't any conclusive information or test so therefore how can it be on the list.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Can I ask a dumb question.....maybe I truly am missing it but where is the health page on the Havana Silk Dog web site? I see a page on the AZ conundrum but nothing that addresses HSD health? If you can gripe about the health page on the HCA site you'd better have a better one on the HSD site to point to. Again, perhaps I am just missing it as I only purused the site quickly.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Paige said:


> The reason I ask is because, when I took Preston to the vet for x-rays, I told him I understood that other problems would come from this...
> 
> He said no..that was not true..
> 
> He said dogs like bulldogs were bred to have legs like Preston's..


I have been doing my own research on this issue, and as a very prominate scientist told me, "There has never been any proof that crooked bones cause eye problems." He then went on to say something to be funny, "The leg bones connected to the eyes, never learned that one in school." You know, in the tone of that jingle, the hip bone is connected to the leg bone, the leg bone is connected to the foot bone.....


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

Kathy said:


> I have been doing my own research on this issue, and as a very prominate scientist told me, "There has never been any proof that crooked bones cause eye problems." He then went on to say something to be funny, "The leg bones connected to the eyes, never learned that one in school." You know, in the tone of that jingle, the hip bone is connected to the leg bone, the leg bone is connected to the foot bone.....


My vet acted like he had never heard of that either...and as I type, I am watching Preston chase Nigel in the backyard..and he always wins..


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

exactly what I thought you'd say.

Gee, potential Havanese buyers doing their research, visiting the HCA website, reading the health information page and nowhere do they find a mention of one of the biggest health issues facing the breed. Nope they go away with the feeling that this breed has almost no existing health problems.

And misreported percentages without disclaimers. Now *that's* spin.

Even your own website has better information and links than the official breed website. Even your website refers people to other websites with information on possible health issues. Kathy, you are one of the best breeders in the world. YOur dogs are healthy. None of this is aimed at you..........but we all know that even in your HCA there are long time breeders who are appalled at the way the health info is being misreported.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Susan- they don't have health problems silly girl, the HSDs with health problems are sent back over to be regular havanese!

Amanda


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

I'm not sure I agree with your assumption that I have to have an HSD health page before I can point out inaccuracies in the HCA health web page.

I think at some point we'll have a health page, but we need more data before we can start putting things up.



mckennasedona said:


> Can I ask a dumb question.....maybe I truly am missing it but where is the health page on the Havana Silk Dog web site? I see a page on the AZ conundrum but nothing that addresses HSD health? If you can gripe about the health page on the HCA site you'd better have a better one on the HSD site to point to. Again, perhaps I am just missing it as I only purused the site quickly.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Amandaound:ound:


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

If that's the case then aren't your puppy buyers getting even less information than the Hav buyers who do have a health site to refer to? If, in your opinion, the Hav health site is flawed, it is at least a starting point. As a puppy buyer myself I prefer some information to no information. I am a college educated person, perfectly capable of doing further research on my own given something to start with. I take nothing as gospel truth.


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

Amanda is on :flame::flame::flame::flame:

Go Amanda:cheer2::cheer2::cheer2::cheer2:


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## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

Greg said:


> We have almost 30 foundation dogs/bitches.


Is there a list somewhere of the names of the "almost 30 foundation dogs/bitches" ? I can't find anything on the HSD site. If we want to research dogs how do we know who is who?


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

I don't think anyone other than you has ever said HSDs dont' have health problems. But you are correct in one aspect........since you can't fully register an HSD until it *passes all its health tes*ts and has been *physically evaluated *and has submitted *soaped pictures*..........so hopefully we can carefully screen the health problems out.



ama0722 said:


> Susan- they don't have health problems silly girl, the HSDs with health problems are sent back over to be regular havanese!
> 
> Amanda


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

dboudreau said:


> Is there a list somewhere of the names of the "almost 30 foundation dogs/bitches" ? I can't find anything on the HSD site. If we want to research dogs how do we know who is who?


NO their isn't a list. It's up to each individual owner to inform anyone that wants to know.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

My puppy buyers visit my website and see the health information. I used to send them to the HCA site for health info but need to update my links now.

I also refer them to The Havanese as well as several other important websites. I hope none of my puppy buyers go into this without some knowledge about what they are getting into.

I'm finding most of the people contacting me now know about Havanese and Silk Dogs are are approaching me because of the differences.

Most have done a ton of research, have great questions and highly intelligent people.



mckennasedona said:


> If that's the case then aren't your puppy buyers getting even less information than the Hav buyers who do have a health site to refer to? If, in your opinion, the Hav health site is flawed, it is at least a starting point. As a puppy buyer myself I prefer some information to no information. I am a college educated person, perfectly capable of doing further research on my own given something to start with. I take nothing as gospel truth.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Greg, How can you criticize the HCA for their health page when it appears to be more salubrious than the HSD page, or lack thereof? Instead of focusing on health, it really exaggerates that the Hav population is overwhelmed with problematic/sick dogs. That's just not true! Scientific studies and statistics change ALL THE TIME, many studies have inaccuracies or stack the deck in their favor...and I speak very generally. There are, and will be contradicting studies. Its like wine, one minute its good for you....the next minute its bad, etc. Or coffee, or extra lbs, etc. Changing, ever evolving..like everything else in this world.

Susan, did you see the puppy buyer's page? It really reiterates that they are a separate breed, almost to the point of implying that is a recognized one.

K.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Okay Greg, that's great that YOUR puppy buyers are totally educated but what about the person like me who sees a cute pup on a calendar one holiday season, buys the calendar to find out what that adorable dog is, and finds out it is an HSD. As a good puppy buyer that person hits the Net to find out all they can about HSD and finds the web site. No health info there.


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## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

Greg said:


> NO their isn't a list. It's up to each individual owner to inform anyone that wants to know.


That doesn't make sense to me. I would think that the HSD people would be proud of their dogs.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Greg said:


> Those are easy things to say to deflect the premise of the study. What are the chances those esteemed universities used poor data or weighted their research on one line? Do you belive it would get thru a Peer Review? Do you think those PHDs whoud add their names to it if the basic data was prejudiced? Maybe rather than questioning me on the forum you would get your answers by asking Murph or Alison? I mean they know the answers, not me. They did present that the "syndrome" did in fact exisit.


Greg, I've kept out of all this nonsense for a very long time now but your post just made me want to comment. I am a scientist I have a Master's in Biochemistry and am currently working on my PhD. The idea that a paper wouldn't get published if its results were wavering or even flat out not completely conclusive is ridiculous. Papers get published ALL THE TIME that are not 100% conclusive. I've personally read a LOT of papers where the data presented is maybe 10% conclusive. It's just the nature of the beast. Papers get published if they present a new idea and SOME conclusive evidence. A lot of papers get published that require additional experiments. Almost every single paper I have ever read finishes with "This is what we believe is going on, however, more experiments need to be done to completely prove it."

Do you think scientists aren't motivated to publish? No, no one would add their name to a paper that had wrong data, but they would publish a paper that required extra experiments so that they won't be scooped, will get the next grant, will be able to add a publication, pick a reason. Just because a paper is peer reviewed does not make it infallible. Papers are published to present a new idea that others in your field can read and then either collaborate with or dispute. Each person must read the paper and gather their own opinions on it based on the data given. If the paper itself mentions that extra data is required and that the study isn't entirely conclusive, then extra data needs to be gathered. Period. You can start off from the paper as a working hypothesis but you can't go around saying that the paper is 100% correct.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Just wanted to add that I can't believe that Yahoo group message! It made me sick.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Maybe the HCA is waiting on more data like the HSD's to update the page, they each have access to the same study, offa statistics. As to the HSDs-they have a lot less dogs to be checking up on.

And as to studies, being married to someone who does research (great conversations there :biggrin1, any publication is basically this is what we thought to be the case with the data we had at the time so it can easily be misconstrued. While you should definitely use what is given at the time, you should always question it as well! 

Amanda

Amanda


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

Regarding the TAMU study, I am with Kathy. I have read the HEART website thoroughly and attended the TAMU report in Denver. As to why people talk about a limited sample...Alison (the presenter) stated that originally they had a much smaller sample and the numbers were much higher (.78 I believe, I don’t have my notes in front of me). They added more havanese to the sample and the number went down quite a bit to .36. Just to clarify, a moderate statistical significance is .3 to .6 per Alison and Dr. Murphy. .36 seems to be on the very low end of that range if you ask me. Alison also stated the dogs they studied came from mainly one line with a few that were from another line or two. To me this doesn’t sound like a good representation of the breed, rather a good sampling of a specific line. Someone asked why more people weren’t allowed to submit their dogs info for the study and they seemed pretty shocked that they hadn’t been allowed. Another person asked if since adding more havanese to the sampling the first time made such a big difference in the numbers would adding more again possibly make the numbers go down again and they said yes. 

Now with regards to OS and CD being one of the factors…I believe that TAMU was studying not just CD but other health issues related to OS. When I looked through the HEART site it seemed to me that most of the health issues all stated that they could be related to a cholesterol issue. So talking about eggs and adding cholesterol to the diet seems like it was an appropriate response. It was even a HSD member that asked about the eggs then never responded to the questions about it. I am highly pissed off and offended that a fellow forum member would twist such a conversation to once again fit the HSDAA’s propaganda. The egg issue was started by a HSD breeder!!! I’m glad that someone who would go spouting off like that is no longer wanting to be on this forum! Greg, You yourself said you give your dogs eggs. Does that mean that you believe OS is prevalent in your line? Would your dogs still have straight legs without the eggs? CD doesn’t mean OS, juvenile cataracts doesn’t mean OS. But, if there is one there is more likely to be a chance that there is another issue. But how significant is the co morbidity rate? I believe that is something Dr. Murphy was still looking into. But if HSDAA truly believe that it is a cholesterol issue why not try to inform people of that? If you don’t believe it why are you all feeding your dogs egg? Makes a person wonder.

I think the numbers just like any other statistics can be manipulated by people to prove their point. You heard what you wanted to hear to prove your point just as you claim “havanese” breeders have. Or, is TAMU presenting different reports to different groups? Dr. Murphy said they said the same things in all presentations. I’ve only been to one so I can only go by what they said in Denver.

Now am I saying that there is not a genetic reason for CD, cataracts or OS? NO! Obviously CD can be genetic as people specifically breed for is in some breeds. But the study also states that some instances can be environmental. It isn’t always a genetic abnormality. But HSDAA makes it sound like havanese breeders are all remiss because they breed CD. Get a grip!!


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## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

Lina, thanks for saying this. I wanted to post the same thing, but with a BS I thought my ideas would not be heard. 

Everyone who reads research results knows that often the findings are totally different than what they originally hoped to prove and often the findings did not prove anything. They are published to encourage further research on the subject.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

I think they'll be educated once they contact a breeder. At this point there isn't any data to post.



mckennasedona said:


> Okay Greg, that's great that YOUR puppy buyers are totally educated but what about the person like me who sees a cute pup on a calendar one holiday season, buys the calendar to find out what that adorable dog is, and finds out it is an HSD. As a good puppy buyer that person hits the Net to find out all they can about HSD and finds the web site. No health info there.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Greg said:


> If it's about a smoke screen and marketing, are you in agreement with the information up on the HCA Health Web page? Do you believe the percentages that are on the website are accurate? is there a disclaimer that the percentages only represent those that reported to OFA? Does it say that many people with failed or unwanted health results don't report them? How about the LCP? At least 2 HCA members have called that into question by saying they reported problems in their dogs and yet the HCA reports 100% normal?
> 
> And what about CD? the new health page doens't mention it. Why would that be? I mean a huge health study.....published in esteemed journals.......and no mention? Maybe because you can't sell puppies if everyone thinks they may be subject to health problems? I'd like to know your position on the information held on that page........not about the awards but about the health info.


Greg, are all your reports and testing for your dogs...current on the offa site?


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

My statement was about the data. Not the conclusions. The deflection is the data only comes from one line. From what I know about peer review that's when they try to poke holes in an hypothesis. This is one definition:

Peer review (known as refereeing in some academic fields) is a process of subjecting an author's scholarly work, research or ideas to the scrutiny of others who are experts in the same field. It is used primarily by editors to select and to screen submitted manuscripts, and by funding agencies, to decide the awarding of grants. The peer review process aims to make authors meet the standards of their discipline, and of science in general. Publications and awards that have not undergone peer review are likely to be regarded with suspicion by scholars and professionals in many fields. Even refereed journals, however, can contain errors.

Nobody is saying the study is over and that we now have fact. But deflecting the current results with questions about the data doesn't float.

It's much better to say what Kathy said and remind us while the researchers believe it to be true they haven't reached conclusions yet.



Lina said:


> Greg, I've kept out of all this nonsense for a very long time now but your post just made me want to comment. I am a scientist I have a Master's in Biochemistry and am currently working on my PhD. The idea that a paper wouldn't get published if its results were wavering or even flat out not completely conclusive is ridiculous. Papers get published ALL THE TIME that are not 100% conclusive. I've personally read a LOT of papers where the data presented is maybe 10% conclusive. It's just the nature of the beast. Papers get published if they present a new idea and SOME conclusive evidence. A lot of papers get published that require additional experiments. Almost every single paper I have ever read finishes with "This is what we believe is going on, however, more experiments need to be done to completely prove it."
> 
> Do you think scientists aren't motivated to publish? No, no one would add their name to a paper that had wrong data, but they would publish a paper that required extra experiments so that they won't be scooped, will get the next grant, will be able to add a publication, pick a reason. Just because a paper is peer reviewed does not make it infallible. Papers are published to present a new idea that others in your field can read and then either collaborate with or dispute. Each person must read the paper and gather their own opinions on it based on the data given. If the paper itself mentions that extra data is required and that the study isn't entirely conclusive, then extra data needs to be gathered. Period. You can start off from the paper as a working hypothesis but you can't go around saying that the paper is 100% correct.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Thumperlove said:


> Greg, are all your reports and testing for your dogs...current on the offa site?


I think I'm only missing Jake's CERF being posted. I have a current copy here that I give to people making inquiries.......but for the life of me I can't get his CERF updated on the website.


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

You compliment Kathy on being an excelent breeder and representing the havanese very well but where in all the HSDAA propaganda does it say that there are many wonderful havanese breeders breeding dogs as healthy as we are claiming our dogs to be? It doesn't. Instead HSDAA made a very public announcement that havanese are breeding unhealthy dogs so we are going out own way with out straight legged dogs who are healthy. All breeds are going to have some health issues, that's nature. Genetic mutations occure in nature. There are bad breeders in every breed as well. If the HSD ever does get AKC approval as a new breed the only way to keep it going will be to sell them to people who will show them and keep the lines going. Somewhere in all this there will be unscrupulous HSD breeders as well. HSD is saying that cause there are a few bad apples the whole bunch is bad. I can fully understand why breeders who are exemplary in their breeding practices are offended by HSDAA's words. I can't believe that you would dare to deny them their anger.


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

Greg said:


> It's much better to say what Kathy said and remind us while the researchers believe it to be true they haven't reached conclusions yet.


This pisses me off more than anything you have ever said. You are agreeing, now that the damage is doen to the HCA and havanese, that they believe it to be true but haven't reached enough of a conclusion to be sure. uke:uke:uke:uke::frusty:uke:uke:uke:uke:


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Greg said:


> I think I'm only missing Jake's CERF being posted. I have a current copy here that I give to people making inquiries.......but for the life of me I can't get his CERF updated on the website.


Well, then why assume that Havanese breeders aren't reporting because of 'bad' findings? When you, yourself..haven't been able to update Jake's for a few years. Maybe they are having the same problems with the site that you are?

I don't know what the process entails, but maybe there is a good reason for it not all being up.

Kara


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Maybe they should add that disclaimer Kara. I mean I don't go around telling the world that all the info on the OFA site about my dogs is correct. 

what irritates me the most is I take all the dogs in at the same time, send all the results in together.............and still it's jake they can't update.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

anneks said:


> This pisses me off more than anything you have ever said. You are agreeing, now that the damage is doen to the HCA and havanese, that they believe it to be true but haven't reached enough of a conclusion to be sure. uke:uke:uke:uke::frusty:uke:uke:uke:uke:


The breed did it to itself. Years of indiscriminate breeding without health testing.

Wait until the next paper comes out. It will be a doozy


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Greg, 
If you care about the havanese and their health, since you have inside information, you should share it with the rest of us.

Amanda


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

Don't hold your breath Amanda


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Greg, I mentioned several times on my post that data published is not CONCLUSIVE. That's basically exactly what you just mentioned. However, on your first post you made it sound like the paper was the end-all and be-all of all papers just because it was peer-reviewed and published by scientists.

By the way, questioning studies by looking at the data and ensuring that data was collected properly and with the proper controls is exactly what scientists do day in and day out. If the data collected was on only one line and that itself had issues when a greater number of dogs were entered then yes, it doesn't have the proper controls. So as a scientist I would question the data and would like more research to be presented before spewing facts that might not be statistically significant.

I'm sure you will take this post and twist it into whatever it is that you want it to say, but that's all I wanted to clarify.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

I'm not sure it's inside information. 

TAMU believes they have identified the major locus where the health problems appear. With further study they believe they can isolate what causes OS. If that's the case then a gene test will be forthcoming.............this is probably years away though. 

The easiest way I've heard OS described is it is like packages of koolaid sitting on a shelf. Without water, they stay all nice and neat.........but when water is added they spill out onto the counter with lots of problems. 

Most of these dogs have the koolaid.........some have the water. If you dont' mix them you don't have issues. When you do, you have problems. When they can ID the gene, we'll know what dogs to mix and what dogs not to mix.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

How does a pet owner get this information or access to this newer study?

Amanda


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Have you read the study?



Lina said:


> Greg, I mentioned several times on my post that data published is not CONCLUSIVE. That's basically exactly what you just mentioned. However, on your first post you made it sound like the paper was the end-all and be-all of all papers just because it was peer-reviewed and published by scientists.
> 
> By the way, questioning studies by looking at the data and ensuring that data was collected properly and with the proper controls is exactly what scientists do day in and day out. If the data collected was on only one line and that itself had issues when a greater number of dogs were entered then yes, it doesn't have the proper controls. So as a scientist I would question the data and would like more research to be presented before spewing facts that might not be statistically significant.
> 
> I'm sure you will take this post and twist it into whatever it is that you want it to say, but that's all I wanted to clarify.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

This is ongoing.........nothing to report yet.



ama0722 said:


> How does a pet owner get this information or access to this newer study?
> 
> Amanda


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## jillnors2 (Apr 12, 2007)

Greg said:


> The breed did it to itself. Years of indiscriminate breeding without health testing.
> 
> Wait until the next paper comes out. It will be a doozy


Greg-were the parents of all the dogs you are breeding health tested?

I ask because you are talking about selective breeding from HSD gene pool and I don't see any health testing results for some of your dog's parents.


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

Greg said:


> The breed did it to itself. Years of indiscriminate breeding without health testing.
> 
> Wait until the next paper comes out. It will be a doozy





Greg said:


> I'm not sure it's inside information.
> 
> TAMU believes they have identified the major locus where the health problems appear. With further study they believe they can isolate what causes OS. If that's the case then a gene test will be forthcoming.............this is probably years away though.
> 
> ...


Ok, I'm confused...is HSDAA's assumption that "havanese" breeders wouldn't love a test that would let them know if there would be a problem breeding a dog. Besides puppy mills, back yard breeders, etc. any breeder would love to have a foolproof test to say whether or not breeding two dogs would produce a problem. I bet plenty of HSD dogs have kool aid and water as well considering how many similar dogs are in the back grounds. But I am sure HSDAA will never admit it. They will continue to hide and throw insults like they are currently doing.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Nope. Dottie doesn't come from a long line of health tested dogs. Some of the dogs on her sire's side have been health tested........i don't know much about her dam's side though


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

anneks said:


> Ok, I'm confused...is HSDAA's assumption that "havanese" breeders wouldn't love a test that would let them know if there would be a problem breeding a dog. Besides puppy mills, back yard breeders, etc. any breeder would love to have a foolproof test to say whether or not breeding two dogs would produce a problem. I bet plenty of HSD dogs have kool aid and water as well considering how many similar dogs are in the back grounds. But I am sure HSDAA will never admit it. They will continue to hide and throw insults like they are currently doing.


YOu were on a roll too.

The HSDAA is continuing their support of the TAMU study in hopes we will have a gene test for OS. I'm not sure what the HCA's position is.


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

If you are so anti HCA why are you hanging around on a forum full of it's supporters and people who are doing everything they can to make it better. The only reason I can think of is that you like to incite people. That is so small and petty of you. I am sure you wouldn't allow it on the HSD board and you should have the decency to not do it here. I'm starting to realize why there may have been so many issues before you all split if this is the same way you handled your HCA memberships and positions!


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## jillnors2 (Apr 12, 2007)

I really don't see Greg provoking anything. I think some people on here are picking fights with him, not sure why. 

I haven't read anything that shows Greg has abhorrence for the Havanese breed at all. He chose a different path, doesn't matter to me.

ETA:
I did read all the posts. Looked like Greg responding to other's questions and criticisms. Oh well, guess some are more open minded than others. Maybe we can all learn something from one another.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Ugh.

I officially have a throbbing headache. 

Greg, *why* are you here at the Havanese forum when its obvious you have much abhorrence for the breed "Havanese"? I mean, yes..we do have some members with other breeds (and we love you all! :kiss, but that's different..they don't 'loathe' and badmouth havanese, their organizations, volunteers, breeders and owners. Please explain...or do you like the drama/inciting/fighting?

Kara


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## abuelashavanese (Mar 26, 2007)

Greg said:


> YOu were on a roll too.
> 
> The HSDAA is continuing their support of the TAMU study in hopes we will have a gene test for OS. I'm not sure what the HCA's position is.


Greg -- Maybe you can enlighten us on the continuation of the TAMU study. Will this further study include more dogs added to the study pool?


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

Yes, he chose a different path. Now he needs to go follow it. All the old posts are there for the reading if you really don't see Greg as provoking anything, it's all there in black and white if you have the time or the inclination to read it all.


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

I think the reality of Greg being on this forum is as a spokesperson for the HSD. Even if we argue, and show different sides, it still keeps the topic at the top page of the list. 

SO even if the garbage being spewed can recruit one or two people or puppy buyers, then it pays off to them. People read this forum as guests and could be future puppy buyers. And rest assured that Greg is not the only HSD person reading the forum and this thread, a lot of them do. ( as guests) He just speaks. 

So the argument goes on, he keeps getting us fired up and the topic stays alive. 

Simple.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

jillnors2 said:


> I really don't see Greg provoking anything. I think some people on here are picking fights with him, not sure why.
> 
> I haven't read anything that shows Greg has abhorrence for the Havanese breed at all. He chose a different path, doesn't matter to me.


These disagreements have been going on for months, since the HSD website went up, which clearly depicts an abhorrence for Havanese and irresponsible 'breeding', etc. As do other threads, two diff breeds, etc., there have been many offensive remarks made and alot of hurt feelings, and Greg, I noticed you didn't defend Preston or Paige when they were getting bashed on the Silk Forum ...but you are very quick to defend Silk dogs on this forum.That speaks volumes.

Amy, you have such an incredible way with words! lol

I'm off to play with my incredibly sweet Havanese before she licks my ear off! lol

Kara


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

Melissa Miller said:


> I think the reality of Greg being on this forum is as a spokesperson for the HSD. Even if we argue, and show different sides, it still keeps the topic at the top page of the list.
> 
> SO even if the garbage being spewed can recruit one or two people or puppy buyers, then it pays off to them. People read this forum as guests and could be future puppy buyers. And rest assured that Greg is not the only HSD person reading the forum and this thread, a lot of them do. ( as guests) He just speaks.
> 
> ...


*That's what's so great about the ignore feature*


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

*well I am losing interest in this topic....*

means it is time for pics of my family... anyone else have good photos of your family?

Amanda


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

I have no clue. I guess it's totally up to them if they think they need a larger sample.



abuelashavanese said:


> Greg -- Maybe you can enlighten us on the continuation of the TAMU study. Will this further study include more dogs added to the study pool?


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## Gableshavs (Jun 19, 2007)

Paige, where is the amazing ignore feature? 

Do you remember when the HSD people talked about preserving the original Cuban breed? Now it's back to health, then back to breed type then back to health onto infinity. Don't you just love it? They're in a loop and it doesn't look like it will end until it wears itself out. I'm tired of the superior attitudes of these people and I wish they'd just move on and leave us the heck alone.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Kara

I think the volumes spoken are in you expecting me to defend someone who has made a habit of attacking me on the forum. Why do you hold me to a different standard?



Thumperlove said:


> These disagreements have been going on for months, since the HSD website went up, which clearly depicts an abhorrence for Havanese and irresponsible 'breeding', etc. As do other threads, two diff breeds, etc., there have been many offensive remarks made and alot of hurt feelings, and Greg, I noticed you didn't defend Preston or Paige when they were getting bashed on the Silk Forum ...but you are very quick to defend Silk dogs on this forum.That speaks volumes.
> 
> Amy, you have such an incredible way with words! lol
> 
> ...


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

I didn't bring up the health. I just answered some questions. Maybe people are just looking for things to complain about. Have I ever had a superior attitude towards you or your dogs?



Gableshavs said:


> Paige, where is the amazing ignore feature?
> 
> Do you remember when the HSD people talked about preserving the original Cuban breed? Now it's back to health, then back to breed type then back to health onto infinity. Don't you just love it? They're in a loop and it doesn't look like it will end until it wears itself out. I'm tired of the superior attitudes of these people and I wish they'd just move on and leave us the heck alone.


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

*how to add someone(Greg) to your ignore list.....*

Click on their name(Greg)..their(Greg) profile will come up..look under their(Greg) picture..you will see add to buddy list on the left and add to ignore list on the right...

Or go to user CP...scroll down on the left near the bottom you will see buddy/ignore list...type in the person(Greg) you want to ignore.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Ok guyssssssss... Everyone going a bit crazy now.. lol

This thread was started by Smarty's mom just wondering why the HSD's were at the Hav show she look at results for. 

We asked the question why the HSD's are there.. got the answer... ok..

Greg says he will not show his dogs at HCA hav events (i think thats what i read??). Tom said he will show and does not think its a big deal.
As for the other HSD breeders, who knows??
It's really up to the HCA and AKC to try to prevent this from happening... I guess somehow take away the havanese registration from the HSD dogs, but who knows if that will ever happen?? Probably not likely I am guessing? I'm sure the people close to the HCA and AKC could answer that question for us?

So, really, what else is left to be said?

PS-- that yahoo post by marbenv and magiclady angered me to..


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## Gableshavs (Jun 19, 2007)

Aaah Beamer, you are right, I think it's time for Mari and I to take a well-deserved nap after a nice walk, the weather is glorious today here in FL. My dogs love the cooler weather, it gives them energy. It's been a very full day. I think Mari is already asleep.
Paula


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

> PS-- that yahoo post by marbenv and magiclady angered me to..


I agree. I think Paige was extremely restained in her response. I know I wouldn't have been. How dare they use Preston as an example without his owner or breeder there to defend him.

What's done is done and time to move on though. Maryam's getting a puppy and that's infinitely more important!!

Amanda, great photo of your family.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Greg said:


> But you are correct in one aspect........since you can't fully register an HSD until it *passes all its health tes*ts and has been *physically evaluated *and has submitted *soaped pictures*..........so hopefully we can carefully screen the health problems out.


Greg,
Physically evaluated by specialists familiar with canine structure? Soaped pictures that have been proven to not be tampered with? How can either of those be considered by anyone to be "proof" of anything other then being ones subjective opinion. Sorry, I will stick to the ortho's and the vet's to help me determine if my dogs are structurally sound.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Lina said:


> Greg, I've kept out of all this nonsense for a very long time now but your post just made me want to comment. I am a scientist I have a Master's in Biochemistry and am currently working on my PhD. The idea that a paper wouldn't get published if its results were wavering or even flat out not completely conclusive is ridiculous. Papers get published ALL THE TIME that are not 100% conclusive. I've personally read a LOT of papers where the data presented is maybe 10% conclusive. It's just the nature of the beast. Papers get published if they present a new idea and SOME conclusive evidence. A lot of papers get published that require additional experiments. Almost every single paper I have ever read finishes with "This is what we believe is going on, however, more experiments need to be done to completely prove it."
> 
> Do you think scientists aren't motivated to publish? No, no one would add their name to a paper that had wrong data, but they would publish a paper that required extra experiments so that they won't be scooped, will get the next grant, will be able to add a publication, pick a reason. Just because a paper is peer reviewed does not make it infallible. Papers are published to present a new idea that others in your field can read and then either collaborate with or dispute. Each person must read the paper and gather their own opinions on it based on the data given. If the paper itself mentions that extra data is required and that the study isn't entirely conclusive, then extra data needs to be gathered. Period. You can start off from the paper as a working hypothesis but you can't go around saying that the paper is 100% correct.


Lina,
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!! YOU ARE RIGHT ON THE MONEY AND EXPLAINED IT SO MUCH BETTER THEN I EVER COULD.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Kathy,

I'm sure you don't need to see an ortho and your vet to determine if your dog is sound. I mean I can look at a dog and tell if it's sound. 

We evaluate the dogs for type.....and use the soaps as evidence to back it up in their permanent record. 

The beauty of it is we don't just register a dog based soley on its pedigree.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Greg said:


> Maybe they should add that disclaimer Kara. I mean I don't go around telling the world that all the info on the OFA site about my dogs is correct.
> 
> what irritates me the most is I take all the dogs in at the same time, send all the results in together.............and still it's jake they can't update.


Greg,
Anytime I have emailed OFA, I get an almost instant reply back. Try it, you might like it! <grin>


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

ama0722 said:


> Greg,
> If you care about the havanese and their health, since you have inside information, you should share it with the rest of us.
> 
> Amanda


Amanda,
I love ya, don't get sucked into his little line of "wait until the next....". Again, it won't be conclusive, or it will be a person's opinion to further attempt to sway people away from this wonderful breed, the HAVANESE!

I don't care what *they* find. I will continue to breed the best to the best.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

Kathy said:


> Greg,
> Anytime I have emailed OFA, I get an almost instant reply back. Try it, you might like it! <grin>


It sounds like maybe you don't believe me. Shall we wager some money on whether or not Jake has a current CERF that isn't up on their website for whatever reason? I mean I can prove it quickly............and I accept paypal.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Greg said:


> It sounds like maybe you don't believe me. Shall we wager some money on whether or not Jake has a current CERF that isn't up on their website for whatever reason? I mean I can prove it quickly............and I accept paypal.


Greg,
If you had the CERF done recently, it can take several weeks for CERF to get the data to OFA, that is even disclosed on the OFA web site. But, if you are saying you have had a current CERF for a long time now and it still isn't posted, then that doesn't make sense to me as to why you wouldn't have had a response back from OFA by now if you had contacted them. End of story.

Like everyone else, I am done with this thread now.


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## arlene (Jul 28, 2007)

Greg said:


> The beauty of it is .


Pardon me while I remove the tape from my mouth . . . . .

There is no BEAUTY in any of this . . . it is all politics and spin.

Arlene


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

regardless if it doesn't make sense to you, it has happened.



Kathy said:


> Greg,
> If you had the CERF done recently, it can take several weeks for CERF to get the data to OFA, that is even disclosed on the OFA web site. But, if you are saying you have had a current CERF for a long time now and it still isn't posted, then that doesn't make sense to me as to why you wouldn't have had a response back from OFA by now if you had contacted them. End of story.
> 
> Like everyone else, I am done with this thread now.


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

ama0722 said:


> means it is time for pics of my family... anyone else have good photos of your family?
> 
> Amanda


Great idea Amanda. My daughter hates to have her pics taken.....teenager, let's see what I can come up with .

1st pic is Daniel & Jessica this past summer in L.A.
2nd is Daniel trying not to share lunch with dogs.


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Julia your daughter is beautiful! Send her down here and I can get some wonderful photos of her!!! Look at her hair, it looks so thick like a hair commercial. Your son and furry kids are great looking too! Nice photos.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Greg said:


> This isn't all about a health issue either Julie. THis is partly a comment about a "health" page that talks about awards rather than health issues.


Greg,
I was pointing out that we were talking about health---health chatter--not specific health issues.Just health issues in general.You posted over and over this wasn't a health issue--but I was pointing to posts talking about health,questioning health etc.You had previously stated the HSD was healthier then the havanese(in another thread)and that's why I posted what I did.I know you were trying to make me look stupid,and point out these aren't health issues,but you were the one missing the point of Kara's post altogether.Oh well.You said I had an agenda...you are wrong.I have no agenda.I'm a pet owner-that's it.I do perhaps see things differently then you,but it is from a pet owner's view...and from that view,I can tell you--a dog with a wierd eyelash growing out of it's eye needing surgery,would be considered a health issue...maybe not to you HSD breeders,but to a pet owner,it's a big deal.Same goes for a severe underbite/overbite.If you had a dog that couldn't eat kibble,you have an issue....I can think of no puppy buyers who would volunteer to pay a premium for a puppy and then have to feed it mush for the rest of it's life because of a severe underbite etc.I believe most pet owners would consider this a health issue.In fact,I think most owners would consider most all trips to the vet,spay,neuter etc. a health issue.Sometimes a dog needs to more then just straight legs--like eyes and teeth.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Greg,
You also told me I need to worry about the forum members here with dogs with health issues--like CD and liver shunts.My answer to you is this---I do care about those people who unfortunately bought a dog with health issues.However,all I can do is try to support them with my words,sympathy,etc.The bottom line really is,I didn't pick their puppy,nor did I buy it for them and I sure as heck didn't breed it either.Most of those people(or all that I know of)bought their dogs before doing the proper homework--finding out info on the havanese breed,the health testing etc.I don't know of any that bought an unhealthy dog after finding this forum.They seem to buy first and then find the forum and find out what they should of did AFTER they have a pup.Sad but true.

I think perhaps you should monitor what your HSD group spews over on your forum.If they were more positive and moving forward within your so-called new breed,I should think they could come up with lots of things to discuss and leave our havanese forum alone,along with our members.

You said I insulted you.If I did,well then so be it--know that you also have insulted me and others on here as well---remember,what goes around,comes around.eace:


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

> I know you were trying to make me look stupid,and point out these aren't health issues


Julie, don't worry...you do NOT look 'stupid'. Personally, I wouldn't like it if my dog had to have ANY surgeries or any difficulties. I've been very fortunate not to have any health issues that require vet visits outside of routine shots and check ups, but I would be very upset if she had surgery of any type, regardless of what it was for. I've been through enough surgeries with my son.



> In fact,I think most owners would consider most all trips to the vet,spay,neuter etc. a health issue


YEP!

If I was a breeder.....I'd be neurotic about major AND minor stuff , I'm way too much of a perfectionist...I'd be totally depressed if I bred any puppies with even minor health issues. Really!



> I think perhaps you should monitor what your HSD group spews over on your forum.If they were more positive and moving forward within your so-called new breed,I should think they could come up with lots of things to discuss and leave our havanese forum alone,along with our members


Ya know...I just thought of something. I wonder if they (those that were calling people stupid idiots for owning a dog with chrondo) even *KNOW* that atleast one of the HSD breeders owns a Hav w/ chrondo? (spayed, of course)...Would they call this breeder names and spew hatred and elitism towards that breeder? If I was that breeder, and I read those remarks..I would feel pretty hurt too.

Mother nature always wins...

However, there will always be people that need to feel better about themselves by putting others down, and always people who will cater to that market and school of thought. Tis' life.

Kara


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Kara, what happened to your ignore feature?? I took the advise & am having a nice weekend!! You guys fought a good fight, made your feelings know - defended us all to the hilt - :biggrin1: - now go relax, have a mimosa for breakfast & enjoy your weekends!!! eace:

And - just waiting for Pablo pictures to be posted !!!


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I am going to use the ignore feature! I just don't think anyone made Julie look dumb, people can read each side and draw their own conclusion, and they will..

I am anxiously awaiting Pablo pictures, too! Oh, and that the MHS threads are pulling me back in! hehe. Will I get anything done today? 

Kara


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

I started this thread hoping it would not end up with the same discussions of the HSD being better than our beautiful Havanese, we know that is a load of crap. Havanese will have their problems, and the silk dogs will have theirs, no question about that, just a fact of nature.

With all of the back and forth one thing is clear to me, the silks will keep their dogs in the AKC rings, continue to compete for AKC Havanese titles and register their litters as Havanese. _ *I would be willing to bet almost none of the HSD members were/are willing to give up AKC (Havanese) priviliges for what maybe the future of the silks. I wish them luck as long as they do not belittle the Havanese.*_


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Sandi,

You've summed up pages and pages of argument really well and I couldn't agree with you more!!!

Melissa - I would love to have pictures of Jessica taken by you. Your photos are amazing and I bet she'd look great. Any chance you are coming to sunny Ca? :biggrin1:

Edited to add that S.F. isn't so sunny today!!!


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Julie,
Don't let any of this bother you. As the old saying goes.... S&*t rolls downhill. I vividly remember a post made to the Havanese Yahoo group by the HSD's esteemed leader wherein she called another Hav person a fat, ugly, alcoholic pig among other things. It was a full page of vitriol aimed at one person (and it was quickly removed but I was set up to receive individual emails so they couldn't remove it from my in box). Remember the type of person you are dealing with when things get heated regarding the HSD stuff.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Oh I saw that email, Susan....I have never read anything quite that vile in my life.. Ack! I would NEVER talk like that! Egads. LOL!

Why some stay restive on a Hav list is beyond me..

Kara


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

I know. I was shocked and horrified. We've all been angry enough to think about writing such a thing but I cannot imagine actually sending it to a couple of thousand people. It was just sickening.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Oh my goodness, I hope the person she was referring to never saw that email!! How hurtful!
Whoever sent that should be ashamed of themselves!!


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

mckennasedona said:


> I know. I was shocked and horrified. We've all been angry enough to think about writing such a thing but I cannot imagine actually sending it to a couple of thousand people. It was just sickening.


Ya know...A good friend of mine wrote a letter to the Drunk Driver that killed her 24 year old son (and he had his two very small children in the car, both survived..but have brain damage) and if ANYONE in the world was justified in writing something hateful...it would be this friend of mine. But not ONE single word out of Janet's mouth was hurtful, even though she was pained beyond anything that *I* as a mother could imagine. So, ironically....about the same time I read that letter you are talking about, I had just read Janet's letter a few days prior...so I guess that's why I compared the two.....but Janet's letter was filled with forgiveness and understanding, strength and character. Which is something I think the really strong, successful people in this world encapsulate.

Anger is a destructive path that usually leads nowhere.

Kara


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

I just want to publicly say how upset I am at that post about Paige's lovely boy, Preston. I just read it now. The words were hurtful, petty and vicious. 

Paige, I am very sorry you read that, sorry there is someone out there that doesn't know you as we do, a caring, loving Hav owner who would do anything to make her furbabies feel safe and healthy. You care about everyone else's Havs as well and are quick to offer help and support.

Preston could not have asked for a better mom than you. It is too bad that petty woman doesn't know that. Her loss.

(((((((Paige)))))))

Julia, those are great pics! I esp. love the one of Daniel trying to eat with all those dogs around him! lol

Amanda, your hubby is a hoot! He just had to hide behind that book, didn't he? lol

Thanks for the smiles, ladies.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Oh . ... and Kara ? I just pm'd you!  

I HAD to! I want a PM back from you, girl! LMBO


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

*THANK YOU*

I just want to say THANK YOU on behalf of Preston and myself...I got so many kind words from everyone, who read what was written by a previous forum member...

Many felt I handled it quit calmly...but to be honest..I have no respect for the hsd...so when they talk bad about me and my sweet Preston...I really don't take offense to it...because I really don't care..

I in no way feel ashamed of Preston's condition...It is.. what it is...and I am so glad that he is mine...because I know he will be taken care of, if he should need it...and he is soooo sweet...

Preston, runs and plays just like my other two with no problem...As long as things stay the way they are, he won't need surgery...His legs have stopped growing..and he is in no pain...so the best outcome..has happend for him.

I think Amanda said it best, when she desribed the difference between us and them...

We all love each others havs...and we are like a family..I never felt that I would be judged by any one on this fourm, by showing his legs..I was just educating..and I would do it again...

Lets all remember the wonderful ignore feature, that Melissa has provided for us...I know I am using mine..and let's keep this forum warm and welcoming to all dog lovers, who want a fun and friendly place to be a crazy dog lady/man...


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Paige, HEAR HEAR! eace:


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

Paige said:


> We all love each others havs...and we are like a family..I never felt that I would be judged by any one on this fourm, by showing his legs..I was just educating..and I would do it again...


That says it all....for some of us who have been on a while and the new members this is what this forum is all about.

Thanks Paige


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## MagicLady (Feb 19, 2007)

Beamer said:


> I believe it was actually Greg that said the HSD's would NOT be competing in HCA Events. (This was a reply to one of my message in the war thread a while back.. lol.. I can find it maybe.. ) He said there might be one HSD guy still showing at HCA events but they were trying to get him to stop...
> The HSD charter also says something about 'urging' members to not show at HCA events..lol


Not true. Not at all.

C


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

MagicLady said:


> Not true. Not at all.
> 
> C


:director:IGNORE ALERT:director:

THIS IS THE BAD CAROL...

:director:IGNORE ALERT:director:


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## MagicLady (Feb 19, 2007)

Who the H are you and who gave you the right to put an IGNORE on me?
Guess this is the Paige way forum and not an open discussion forum.

So if I disagree with you Paige, what? You shoot me?
Greg is my breeder. When the HSD thing all happened I was in email contact and phone contact with him almost immediately and quite the reverse is the truth. There was NO one telling us not to show in AKC, although some, including DOC said they wouldn't be doing it.

There was NO one telling us they would do anything to us if we did show in AKC.

Either you have you facts mixed up or you are lyng.
Either way, to put an IGNORE on my emails is not an open forum for discussion.

CAROL....THE VERY GOOD AND NICE ONE.

Just tell me now...is this an open forum for discussion or do we have to discuss only what Paige wants and only agree with her?


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

I received this pm from Carol...and it is followed by my reply..

Quote:
Originally Posted by *MagicLady* 
_Sorry. Did I do something to you to make you call me the BAD CAROL?

Is there some reason when someone sympathizes with you about the horrible things you and your dog have been through that you would turn that around to something nasty?

Why BAD CAROL? What the heck did I ever do to you?_

Quote from you on your hsd yahoo group

. "I pity the breeders and owners who have been bamboozled by
> these stupid people."

Me or Preston don't need your smypathy...The hsd attitude is so ugly...I have read all the post on your hsd group..nasty..nasty...nasty....I have also read the Diane Klumb letter to Judith...I was in shock..I actually thought it was a joke at first..I couldn't phatom that it could be real..I have never in my 43 years of life...ever heard something so nasty and vile to another person..

How in the world could you be apart of something...when someone so nasty and mean is running it....I just don't understand...I realize people get bad feelings against one another....but OMG..to send such a hateful, mean letter and send it for all to read...I'm sorry but in my world...there is no excuse for such hatefulness...and then people want to call her their friend, and join her in the plight to start a new havanese....I can only come to the conclusion that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree....as I would never associate with someone who could write and post something so vile on a public site..because they are proud of what they have written.

I didn't even know the hsd yahoo group existed until I was informed that Preston was being talked about on there...I am not a breeder...never want to be..just a HAVANESE mom...I realy don't care what goes on in the HAVANESE VS hsd world...I would never buy a dog that I had to register in another dogs name...that to me is fraud...To me it's like saying...hey I have decided that I have found a new breed of lab..a better lab..but...akc doesn't recognize it..so,we will still call it a lab on paper..but my group is called it a super lab...as a dog buyer...this is not something I would do...or recommed to anyone...

That's just foolish...

Nothing was done to either me or Preston...Preston's breeders are wonderful people....They too were sadden by the news..There are no test to determine if his parents were carriers...I am thrilled to own Preston..you will not find a sweeter HAVANESE.....I posted about Preston to educate.. not so hsd people could come over to the HAVANSE forum and use it as ammo against the HAVANSE breeders...

More than anything....I don't understand why in the world any hsd breeders would register to be a member on the HAVANESE forum...We are like a family here...We have some breeders...but mostly pet owners..It's a fun and friendly place to meet other dog owners...as we don't mine..if you own a havanese or a "hsd"...what we do mine is you all bringing your uglyness to our forum...Please go away....and start your own forum..and us pet owners will glady stay away.

Paige
PROUD HAVANESE MOM


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

I'm hoping this will be my last post on this thread. I feel it necessary to make sure people reading this thread know the truth behind some vitriol Paige is spouting. I'm sure many of you have me on ignore, as I you, but for those other members who just lurk I thought you should know the entire story.

Judith actually posted a private email from Diane that was in response to something Judith wrote publically about Diane. I find it interesting Paige that you don't bother referencing what Judith wrote, only Diane. Would your opinions be different if you know both were doing it but only Judith chose to make a single email public?

The fact is you don't know much about either Judith or Diane, but you can spew vitriol nonetheless. 

I personally don't think private emails should be made public. Obviously, some do. I think it's telling that they congregate together.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

oh I forgot to say goodbye.

bye

G


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

*huh?*



MagicLady said:


> Not true. Not at all.
> 
> C


Magic Lady...

Whats not true? That Greg posted that or the urging of the HSD to not show under Havanese? Gregs posts are linked in this thread. go and find them.. and your website clearly states about the urging..

Greg is/was the spokesman for HSD on this thread, so, I guess you are saying he told us alot of false facts then??

Thanks!


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Good Grief!!!!! Go away for a few days, miss a few posts and look what happens. My advice is to just let the HSD do their thing and we will do ours. They really cannot hurt the Havanese unless we let them and we should not try to hurt their efforts. The HSD that bring warmth and friendship to the Forum should be welcome. All the politics will go on for a long time; “the entire He said, She said” will wear you out. 

Paige, personal post about you and your dogs is totally unbelievable. Anyone who would do such a thing will never get your point. You are so far above them it will break your neck to look down that far.


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## MagicLady (Feb 19, 2007)

Paige, not a very friendly person who can't stand that she got suckered into buying and then paying for the health issues of her Havanese, has asked me, and other HSD owners to leave this forum because, apparently, you are not allowed to disagree on here. She apparently has lurked on HSD forums and then copys and pastes what is said there and claims that's ok, but not ok for HSD people to do the same. She and some others (thankfully not all) who post on here think it's ok for them to bad mouth people, call them names, blacklist, and put them on IGNORE, but no one had better do the same to her.

Here is the PRIVATE email I sent her. She posted it and her very hard to understandeace: reply back to me that she sent me in PRIVATE email. 

I feel sympathy for what she is going through, and I get called THE BAD CAROL. There is no sense in that. I am going to change my screen name to THE BIG BAD CAROL. hahaha....get a life Paige, get a sense of humor...get an education.

BBC (Big Bad Carol)


Sorry. Did I do something to you to make you call me the BAD CAROL? 

Is there some reason when someone sympathizes with you about the horrible things you and your dog have been through that you would turn that around to something nasty? 

Why BAD CAROL? What the heck did I ever do to you?

Quote from you on your hsd yahoo group

. "I pity the breeders and owners who have been bamboozled by
> these stupid people."


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Im closing this thread. I will come back later today and decide if anything needs to be deleted. Its gone way over board. 

Posting Pm's is really not a good idea. 

I just dont have the patience for the fighting. I haver a staph infection, a hole in my stomach, and Dawna is in Cabo for a wedding. So for my sanity, the argument is over. 

Melissa


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