# Havanese or Shavanese



## harrach

:Cry:
Help!

I bought a puppy about three weeks ago from a breeder who told me that I could show and breed her, so I paid extra for that right. Penny is about 3 months old now, born June 10, 2009. I am thinking now that she is a Shavanese. The breeder denies that she is, though. I didn't do enough research on Havanese before I bought mine and didn't know about them. Anyway, I love her dearly and want to keep her, but I asked the breeder if she could refund me the difference in money that I paid for a breeder quality dog, and only charge me for a pet quality dog. The breeder is angry about this and not taking it kindly. Plus she is refusing to give me the puppies papers now, until she goes into heat once (but that is not on her contract and in emails she previously told me that they were on their way to me). So its totally making me not trust her. 

So here's my question, does she look like a Havanese or a Shavanese?

Ok, I'm so new that I don't know how to upload her pics!


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## harrach

Ok, I had to resize my pics. Hopefully you can see them. I have more pics if these aren't good enough.


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## rdanielle

Definitely need pics! Go to Advanced & you'll see a Paper Clip symbol 4th from the right. Click that & upload. If you have issues uploading, your image is probably too large. Hope this helps!

Here is a link to Shavanese:
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/havanesephotos7.htm


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## luv3havs

Short Haired Havanese-that's how it looks to me.


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## rdanielle

Shavanese. She's a doll tho!  Well a lot of ppl will be envious as there is less grooming involved with the Shavanese.


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## harrach

The part that I'm not happy about is that I paid $2,200 for her. And the breeder is denying that she's a Shavanese AND also mentioned something about a lawyer in her last email to me.


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## Renee

Couldn't you sue HER for not delivering what she said she was, and for what you paid?
Maybe some breeders will chime in...


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## harrach

Thanks Nan and Renee for your opinion. I thought I was just crazy after reading what the breeder was telling me. She made me think I was totally wrong. Now I'm thinking she doesn't know what she's doing.

I guess that if she is nasty to me and won't give me some money back, we'd have to sue her. She is holding Penny's papers too and won't give them to me.


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## rdanielle

How can she deny that she is a Shavanese? When it is so blatantly clear that she is?! I can't believe she's the one bring up the lawyer.. Definitely seems she's trying to sweep this under the rug which is so wrong. Were you planning on showing at all? Tell her that you will submit a picture of Penny to Dog Breed Info for their opinion & that you will include her kennel name. 
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/havanesephotos7.htm

Also, you might look into contacting AKC I have seen that they handle breeder & puppy buyer disputes. Might also contact them about sending out an AKC judge who is very familiar in the Havanese breed!


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## harrach

Well, I thought I'd try to show her. I'm a stay at home mom that has time to play with her, and train her, and primp her all day. My husband was also really excited about this too, and he's the one who actually decided to pick Penny. So now he's feeling guilty. The breeder had two available puppies. The other one had a lot of really wavy hair and she said Penny would have long straight hair, like her mother, who was there.

I left the breeder's name and any of her information out of this so that she couldn't retaliate by saying I slandered her. But I am totally bummed about this situation.


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## harrach

Oh, Renee, she's a UKC. I suppose that's bad?


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## rdanielle

Yeah, thats a shame that the breeder is not stepping up to the plate. Definitely contact AKC. 
http://www.akc.org/contact/answer_center/faq_resolveconflict.cfm

Hopefully some others will chime in.


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## rdanielle

Sorry, I'm not that familiar with the UKC. Might be worth a shot to contact them.


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## harrach

I guess I'll send her a link to this thread and show her what other people are saying. And see if she wants to give me some sort of refund now. Thanks for that AKC link. She did say that the father is AKC registered. But I'm not sure if its true.


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## Havtahava

Hold on. Don't contact AKC yet. They do not get involved with breeder disputes and often will side with the breeder and will not help you if you contact them prematurely. You need to do your homework first and then the breeder can get fined and lose their AKC privileges. Do not contact AKC yet.


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## SMARTY

Your puppy is darling. Is Shavenes a short haired Havanese? If she is UKC, AKE will not get involved at all. Does UKC have shows? Is that the United Kennel Club?


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## Havtahava

Ignore my earlier message. Since your puppy is UKC registered, my advice doesn't matter at all.

ETA (Edited to add): The OP and I are in contact privately.


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## Tom King

Cute puppy, but that's definately a short-hair. You didn't get what you paid for so some adjustment needs to be made, no question.


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## Eva

I have a Smoothcoat (shorthair) Havanese and I think that your puppy is absolutely adorable! I actually wanted a Shav though and can completely understand how devestating it would be to have a breeder pull something like that and then refuse to work with you.  
Here's a picture of my boy when he was a pup..they look quite a bit alike


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## ama0722

Does your contract say anything about refunding money if the dog isn't showable? But maybe UKC short hair isn't a fault?


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## BeverlyA

Your puppy is adorable, and I know you love her, but she's not a regular Havanese that should be bred.
It makes me sad for you, because you were looking towards the possibility of entering the show world and it makes me furious at the breeder who intentionally mislead you.

Beverly


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## psvzum

That little face and black nose are BEAUTIFUL-not to mention the big brown eyes : )


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## good buddy

Your pup is really cute, but she is a short haired Hav. I don't know what the rules are for UKC, but you surely didn't get hat you paid for.


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## rdanielle

UKC Havanese Breed Standard
http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Breeds/HavaneseRevisedJuly12009


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## ama0722

Looks like it would be a disqualification in UKC too. So maybe you can point to that?

p.s. The weight above 14lbs surprises me. So does the much longer than tall!


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## mellowbo

I'm so sorry your breeder misrepresented what she was selling you. Your puppy is adorable and I hope you get this straightened out!
Carole


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## harrach

Thanks everyone for being so nice and friendly! Eventually I want to buy a Havanese friend for Penny to play with. This time I know what to look for.


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## rdanielle

Keep us updated


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## whitBmom

Definitely a shavanese, and it is very sad that this breeder has misrepresented his/herself like this to you. A short haired havanese is NOT the standard and is not to be bred. Your breeder does need to make an adjustment. Sorry to hear you are going through this. But I have to say your puppy is an absolute doll


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## murphymoesmamma

Penny Lane is gorgeous but the breeder that misrepresented her should give you at least a partial refund. I am so glad to be a forum member and have the advice of so many wonderful breeders.


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## harrach

I wish I had known about this forum before I bought her. But, luckily, she is so darn cute. She is basically a miniature hound dog that even points. Hey, do Havanese point like hound dogs too??? She'll run outside and see or hear something outside and lift her front leg and point at it! It is hilarious. 

So I guess we'll sue the breeder for a partial refund. I don't know what she's up to but I think there's something not right with the whole situation. A real breeder would have known she's a Shavanese from the time she was a few weeks old, and wouldn't have sold her as a show/breeding quality dog. Plus, I think some one who is legit would give a refund and apologize. 

What's the going price for a Shavanese puppy????


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## heatherkurt

I live in the Seattle area, and see you are somewhere in the Pacific Northwest as well. Our breeder, who lives on Bainbridge Island, had 2 short hairs in her most recent litter. She was very upfront to say that these puppies would make lovely pets, but they were not the breed standard, and therefore were priced significantly less ($500 compared to $2,000). I was at Fido Fest this past weekend with my 2 Havanese, and was approached by a woman with her 3 month old puppy. She was perplexed why her dog looked so much different from mine and every other Havanese she has ever seen. I immediately recognized she had a short hair, but no one, including her breeder, had ever mentioned that. She indicated she had paid a mint for her dog because of his special coloring, as she called it, and I didn't have the heart to say the breeder had likely mislead her. This woman mentioned she purchased her puppy from a breeder in Federal Way. Any chance you got your dog from the same person?


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## bentimom

looks like a short hair to me


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## moxie

I think this is just awful, although the pup is simply precious. It makes me mad to think that the breeder is trying to intimidate you when she has clearly misrepresented and charged show fees for a different breed. I hope that you stand up for your rights and are compensated in some way, if only with a humble apology. You sound awfully nice. Your furbaby is very lucky as is this breeder.


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## HavaneseSoon

I say....Call her bluff about her mentioning a lawyer! Let her know that you will be seeking a lawyer assistance.

If she is a REAL breeder of Havanese, he/she would know the difference between the pups.

Your pup is beautiful and it is so hard not to fall in love with these dogs.


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## pjewel

It's stunning to me that the breeder would argue the fact of your adorable pup being a shavanese. It is so obvious. She is the cutest thing though. I love her coloring. I hope you can resolve your dispute with the breeder.


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## JASHavanese

The puppy is cute but you know by now that she is not in standard and is a short hair. The breeder can scream till the cows moo that she'll get an attny but she's at fault here. You can tell a shorthair by 3-5 weeks of age and she knew what she was selling you. I'd get an attny or go to small claims court and I'd also post the registered name of the dog for all to see. That doesn't say the person's name but sure does tell us a lot.


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## harrach

Yea, now I know she's a Shavanese. We are going to take this to small claims court. I'll contact her one last time, to see if she has a sudden change of heart.

Also JASHavanese, do you mean the registered name of the sire and dam (those are the only names I have)? The breeder has refused to give me any of my own puppy's papers.

Plus, I recently discovered that the listed name of my puppy's *SIRE* on the purchase agreement, is not even the same name listed on the purchase agreement for another puppy bought from that same breeder.... both puppies are from that same exact litter that she was selling. The other puppy is also a Shavanese, weird HUH!!? :frusty:


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## Posh's Mom

I'm pretty sure litters can actually have two sires for one litter, but I think you'd have to do DNA testing to tell which pup was from which sire....breeders is this true or am I wacked?


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## Havtahava

Amy, you're correct: a litter can have more than one sire, but DNA testing would have to be done to show parentage.

Harrach, what a mess. Do you have a contract with this breeder saying they can withhold the puppy's papers from you? If not, they're in violation with AKC's rules too - but don't contact AKC just yet. (You'll want to get a few other things in line first.)


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## harrach

She said that the sire is AKC but not the dam. 

How could a breeder know that puppies had different sires in one litter when that same breeder doesn't even know the difference between a Havanese and a Shavanese? Also the breeder said that they only own one male, and it lives with her son in another state. 

But she has listed two different (and totally unique) sire names for one litter. I guess she never suspected that we'd figure that out.


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## MopTop Havanese

Oh my, this just gets better and better! If I remember correctly, you stated you bought this puppy from the breeder as a 'show prospect'...
You can't show a dog in an AKC show unless both parents are AKC!!!
You won't be able to even get AKC papers for the dog if both parents aren't AKC registered-
I really hope you can get this all worked out- 
Your puppy is adorable regardless!!!


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## JASHavanese

harrach said:


> Yea, now I know she's a Shavanese. We are going to take this to small claims court. I'll contact her one last time, to see if she has a sudden change of heart.
> 
> Also JASHavanese, do you mean the registered name of the sire and dam (those are the only names I have)? The breeder has refused to give me any of my own puppy's papers.
> 
> Plus, I recently discovered that the listed name of my puppy's *SIRE* on the purchase agreement, is not even the same name listed on the purchase agreement for another puppy bought from that same breeder.... both puppies are from that same exact litter that she was selling. The other puppy is also a Shavanese, weird HUH!!? :frusty:


 I'd just flat out say who the breeder is. This is one very messed up deal
Sure, post the names of the parents too.


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## MopTop Havanese

_"Also JASHavanese, do you mean the registered name of the sire and dam (those are the only names I have)? The breeder has refused to give me any of my own puppy's papers."_

I am going to bet this is because the breeder doesn't have any papers for this puppy!!! If one of the puppies parents isn't AKC registered, there is NO way to register the puppy AKC- unless the breeder told you the puppy would be registered with a different registry-


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## good buddy

I believe she had mentioned the pup was UKC. I guess that could be United Kennel Club or Universal Kennel Club. I _think_ Universal Kennel Club takes all or any breeds including mixes.


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## mimismom

Wow! What a mess... I hope that everything gets worked out. 

She seems sweet! (the pup that is)


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## harrach

The name of the sire that the breeder gave me is Deppes Angus Boldly Goes. I looked him up on the AKC site (he's supposed to be AKC) but I couldn't find any info. Can someone who knows what they are doing look him up and tell me whatever info they can find? Thanks


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## marjrc

Hello Harrach and welcome to you and to your sweet Penny Lane! I'm sorry you are facing problems with dealing with the breeder. Since you wouldn't be able to show your puppy anyway, the papers may not be at all important. It would be nice, though, if you could check if the parents passed some of the health tests that are recommended. You can find that out at www.offa.org Enter the "official" name of either or both parents and see what comes up. You can also try the breeder's name, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Something tells me that she couldn't have been bothered with health testing her dogs. Either way, so long as your sweet girl is healthy and gives you joy, that is what counts in the end. She's a cutie pie!


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## Havtahava

harrach said:


> The name of the sire that the breeder gave me is Deppes Angus Boldly Goes. I looked him up on the AKC site (he's supposed to be AKC) but I couldn't find any info. Can someone who knows what they are doing look him up and tell me whatever info they can find? Thanks


I'm not sure what you mean when you say you looked him up on the AKC site. What are you trying to find there? That will only give you (show) point information.

I found your breeder's web site pretty easily with that information. Being that she is in one of the big puppy mill states, has a lot of dogs in more than one breed (13 Havs prominantly featured on her site), doesn't care about conformation (photos show that and so do her notes of "champion sire" or "both champion parents" of her breeding dogs), and doesn't recognize or acknowlege a short-haired Havanese, I'm not sure you're going to get much out of her.

At this point, what do you want from her? I doubt you'll ever get AKC or UKC papers from her, but if you want to push for a partial refund for misrepresentation and/or overcharging, that may be the avenue to pursue.


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## luv3havs

I'd go for the partial refund for misrepresentation and/or overcharging that Kimberly suggested.

She shouldn't be allowed to get away with this deceptive behavior.

Although you love your dog and she is adorable, she is not what you signed on for and paid for.
I hope you go to small claims court as you previously mentioned.


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## Renee

Don't forget the Better Business Bureau. Gives her another "black" mark if people are researching her. Also, how about a well written letter to the editor in her town?? She shouldn't be allowed to get away with this. I would let her know the steps you're going to take if she doesn't issue you a partial refund. It was clearly misrepresenation.


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## Pixiesmom

This whole thing stinks on ice-I'm really sorry you're going through this. 
Your puppy is adorable though. I really hope it all works out for you.


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## Havtahava

harrach said:


> The part that I'm not happy about is that I paid $2,200 for her. And the breeder is denying that she's a Shavanese AND also mentioned something about a lawyer in her last email to me.


By the way, if you do a search on this site using the terms Deppe and the kennel name, you'll find at least two threads where people have paid $900 for their dogs from them, which was a steal because they were told the dogs were normally $1200-1800. I'm curious to know why she charged you so much more than the others, especially if she isn't indicating that your puppy is a "rare" (which chaps my hide anyway).

If nothing else, you can contact those individuals to get more information to use when you deal with the breeder before you go to Small Claims Court. Definitely follow up with the BBB as well.  Are you in Arkansas too? It may be helpful if you are local to her.

Edited to add: I see that you are in the Pacific NW, so I already know that answer. Nevermind.


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## karin117

I would like to say something...that have nothing to do with the price on the dog or the fact that she is a short haird havanese.

This is a dog bought for breeding? And you do not know the breed enough to tell a short hair havanese from a long hair...OR look around to find a breeder who do and are willing to mentor you.

This is a dog with no pedigree, no health test on the parents (?) and the breeder have a strange site who "smell mill"....AND this is what you though would be a good foundation bitch?

I see this time and time againe...and THAT make me feel sad...Breeding is NOT anything to take lightley...the puppies should go for loong life to familys who depend on your "knowhow", your dedication....

Sorry that you did not get what you payd for, and NO this breeder should not get away with it...Next time, find a reputable breeder and start from the beginning...
By the way, there is NOTHING strange to not breed on a dog bought in to a breeding program....if the dog not hit your standard...why breed it....YOU should NEVER depend on ONE buy...


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## harrach

I googled Deppes and there is or was a breeder in Arkansas. But I doubt that this breeder has anything to do with them. Maybe they bought a puppy from the Deppes and kept that name.

Anyway, I sent the breeder a registered letter in the mail stating that I want some sort of refund. And then we'll take it to small claims if we don't hear something back from them in a week or so. 

As far as the next puppy I purchase; I'll do a lot more research. I have learned a lot already. And I am learning more every day.


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## Havtahava

Yes, I see that there is another breeder in the Pacific NW that appears to have ties with the Deppes in Arkansas. The two breeders are listed together in a few places.

Karin, I completely agree with you. This topic has several different points that need addressing and I'm glad you commented on that one.


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## JASHavanese

Study and study and study the breed standard before you buy, especially a foundation bitch or dog. You want the very best you can get for that and you didn't do your homework. I'd suggest you step back for a while and learn our breed before you put puppies on the ground. I don't know who is more guilty here....you or the breeder. The breeder knew what they were selling you. You plan to put little lives in loving homes without doing your research which dumps your problems on them. Do you have a Havanese club near you where you can find a mentor?


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## Havtahava

Jan, I agree.


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## hedygs

JASHavanese said:


> Study and study and study the breed standard before you buy, especially a foundation bitch or dog. You want the very best you can get for that and you didn't do your homework. I'd suggest you step back for a while and learn our breed before you put puppies on the ground. I don't know who is more guilty here....you or the breeder. The breeder knew what they were selling you. You plan to put little lives in loving homes without doing your research which dumps your problems on them. Do you have a Havanese club near you where you can find a mentor?


Absolutely true.

I have learned so much from the quality breeders on this site. I believe the most important lesson has taught me that I have so much more to learn about this wonderful breed we love and love us.


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## galaxie

Have you contacted a lawyer yet? You need a contracts lawyer to review the contract between you and your breeder to ensure that your claim will stand in court.

Good luck. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience, breeders like that are AWFUL and are everything that's wrong with the dog world.


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## harrach

Hi Galaxie, 
Well, the breeder retained her own lawyer, and was going to give me only a small refund and force me to sign a confidentiality agreement, which I don't want to do (and its something she's done before). That's how all of the nastiness continues; she can just go on and on screwing decent people out of money. Its too bad now that some people on here want to blame me. :faint: Oh well. The breeder told me that her parents had been health tested, and she was guaranteed, and all of the things good breeders tell you.

I bought a Newfoundland 9 yrs ago (she died and that's why we bought Penny), and that breeder said our Newfie, Bear, was fully papered, and health tested, and she ended up being amazing and from great lineage like her breeder claimed. I didn't know that some Havanese breeders could be so sneaky. Now I have learned a lesson. I will take all the blame but it was also innocent on my part.

P.S. We love Penny she is beautiful, wonderful, smart, crazy, and fun! You wouldn't believe how many people ask me about her because they want one too.


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## luv3havs

I really can't understand why or how people on here could blame you! How would you ever know you weren't getting a full-coated Havanese?

I'm glad to hear that you love your dog, but I still feel that the breeder shouldn't be getting away with that kind of deception.
Good luck and happy Holidays!


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## Sheri

I wonder if you could post the breeder's name and kennel name here so that is anyone searched it this information could come up? I'd check with a lawyer, first, to be sure it couldn't come back to bite you. This is very disgusting.


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## Wildflower

I'm so sorry you're having to go through all this...  How awful of that woman. 

Our "mini" schnauzer (Kramer) is 10 years old and we do have AKC papers on him -- however, as he started growing, we began to realize he was probably not a miniature but part mini and part standard Schnauzer. (The breeders had both sizes at their home.) Most miniature schnauzers top out at about 15-17 pounds -- Kramer is at 29 lbs. 

We didn't want and we didn't pay for a show quality dog, but if I had been in a situation like you are, I'd be fighting hard, to. I hope all works out for you!


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## krandall

harrach said:


> Hi Galaxie,
> Well, the breeder retained her own lawyer, and was going to give me only a small refund and force me to sign a confidentiality agreement, which I don't want to do (and its something she's done before). That's how all of the nastiness continues; she can just go on and on screwing decent people out of money. Its too bad now that some people on here want to blame me. :faint: Oh well. The breeder told me that her parents had been health tested, and she was guaranteed, and all of the things good breeders tell you.
> 
> I bought a Newfoundland 9 yrs ago (she died and that's why we bought Penny), and that breeder said our Newfie, Bear, was fully papered, and health tested, and she ended up being amazing and from great lineage like her breeder claimed. I didn't know that some Havanese breeders could be so sneaky. Now I have learned a lesson. I will take all the blame but it was also innocent on my part.
> 
> P.S. We love Penny she is beautiful, wonderful, smart, crazy, and fun! You wouldn't believe how many people ask me about her because they want one too.


I don't think anyone here was blaming YOU. They were only pointing out that anyone who wants to breed dogs needs to know a LOT about the breed in question. In the case of your Penny, you were certainly deceived by the breeder, and it's too bad that she may get away with it. I agree that if your lawyer thinks it is safe, you should post her name here.

The funny thing is that while short haired havs cannot be shown and should not be bred, they have a charm all their own (as you have found) some breeders who have them in their lines sell them honestly and openly as pets. How could you NOT love Penny! She's one of the most adorable little dogs I've ever seen!

Good luck with her, and Merry Christmas!


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## Sheri

How about some new pictures of Penny?


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## harrach

Here is a newer pic of Penny. She is almost 7 months old now.

Thanks everyone for being understanding. I got tired of thinking about this breeder situation and feeling fed up with her a long time ago. But someone asked me for an update. And when I read through the thread I noticed people beginning to say some negative stuff about me. That's why I felt blamed.

You must understand that this breeder said, in writing, that her dogs were guaranteed, health tested, papered etc etc. She knows she's guilty, that's why she wanted me to sign a confidentiality agreement with the small refund she'd give me. Her lawyer actually told me that this is the breeder's standard policy-to deal with issues like this. By signing the confidentiality agreement, it would legally keep me from talking and saying negative things about her, or discuss any of this situation ever again, but I won't sign it!


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## imamurph

Hey...PLEASSSSE don't let ANYONE make you feel bad...geeeez, you were duped..
and I for one feel very bad for you!:hug:

DO NOT sign anything without legal advice!


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## Pixiesmom

She's beautiful!!


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## Tom King

Both parents have to be carriers to produce a shorthair. A shorthair gets a copy of the gene that produces it from each parent. It has nothing to do with any other health issues.


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## Eva

Awww, she's growing up to be a beautiful girl 
I love her markings!


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## krandall

harrach said:


> View attachment 27125
> 
> Here is a newer pic of Penny. She is almost 7 months old now.
> 
> Thanks everyone for being understanding. I got tired of thinking about this breeder situation and feeling fed up with her a long time ago. But someone asked me for an update. And when I read through the thread I noticed people beginning to say some negative stuff about me. That's why I felt blamed.
> 
> You must understand that this breeder said, in writing, that her dogs were guaranteed, health tested, papered etc etc. She knows she's guilty, that's why she wanted me to sign a confidentiality agreement with the small refund she'd give me. Her lawyer actually told me that this is the breeder's standard policy-to deal with issues like this. By signing the confidentiality agreement, it would legally keep me from talking and saying negative things about her, or discuss any of this situation ever again, but I won't sign it!


Good for you for standing up to her.

The good thing out of all this is that you ended up with an *ADORABLE* little girl, and that's what matters most in the end. It's just too bad that it had to be such a hard lesson for you!


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## Sheri

awww, she's growing up so pretty--a benefit of a short haired hav is that I think they retain their color as they grow, so she'll always be a pretty, rich color, too! Thanks for the update!

(I'm glad you are standing up to the "breeder" also!)


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## marjrc

Penny is adorable! I just love her coloring. As you said, Sheri, it just might be that because the hair is short, the strong colors stay. Look at Eva's Todd - he still has those lovely rust/red markings. 

Good luck with whatever you do, Galaxie.


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## harrach

Yeah, I've heard that the short haired Havanese keep their colors. Penny has a patch of gray on her chest now, that's the only part that changed. It was more black when we first got her. Her whiskers are different colors too, on the side of her mouth where she has black hair, her whiskers are black and on the white side, her whiskers are white! Her wiry whiskers sort of reminds me of a terrier. 

We live on the east side of the Cascades but sometime when there is a get together on the west side, I'd like to go! I missed the last one and I just recently saw the pics. I'd really love to see Todd!


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## [email protected]

Aww I really like your Shavanese. My neighbor has one that is about 8 years old, and she is chocolate. The funny thing is that, I knew nothing about the havanese after I got my first one a few years back. When my neighbor moved in I liked her dog but never asked her what breed it was. When I got my first hav, I did research and came across the shavanese. I though it looked a lot like my neighbors dog. So I finally asked her what breed it was, and it was a shavanese. I though, :jaw: wow!! what a small world!!! 

Shavanese are very smart, and the good thing about shavanese is the grooming. Their coat is easier to care for and they have such a sweat personality.

My neighbor actually found her and took her to the vet to see if she was microchip. To make long story short. She did not have any luck finding her owners, so she kept her. Then the vet told her she was a Shavanese.


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## lfung5

Penny is so cute. Thanks for sharing your story and posted an update. Yes, I'm sure Penny and Todd would love to meet! I wonder if they would see that they were alike!


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## harrach

Penny IS really smart. Almost too smart for her own good sometimes! She was the star of her puppy training class. She is also a fast learner. If only she'd quit chasing our cats all over the house. Potty training her was pretty easy, but she still have occasional accidents and when she see's my kids she can pee from excitement. :dance: 

Its cool about your neighbor's dog! So do you think that Havs and Shavs have similar personalities? I live in a small town and there aren't any Havs around here for me to compare.


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## Jen50

Working in the legal community, I have found it is usually the one who is "in the wrong and has the most too lose" who cries "lawyer" first.


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## [email protected]

Yea, they are similar only that since she is older, she is not as playful or friendly. She was attacked by a pitbull once so I think that is why she is a little scared. She is very smart though. My neighbor lets her out in front to go potty and lets her go around the street. After she walks around a while she knocks her door so she can go back inside. I think she is very smart because she takes her own walk.

The cool thing about finding her was that, she was already fixed so she did not have to do that. She was already potty trained, and she liked her kids.


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## galaxie

harrach said:


> Hi Galaxie,
> Well, the breeder retained her own lawyer, and was going to give me only a small refund and force me to sign a confidentiality agreement, which I don't want to do (and its something she's done before). That's how all of the nastiness continues; she can just go on and on screwing decent people out of money. Its too bad now that some people on here want to blame me. :faint: Oh well. The breeder told me that her parents had been health tested, and she was guaranteed, and all of the things good breeders tell you.
> 
> I bought a Newfoundland 9 yrs ago (she died and that's why we bought Penny), and that breeder said our Newfie, Bear, was fully papered, and health tested, and she ended up being amazing and from great lineage like her breeder claimed. I didn't know that some Havanese breeders could be so sneaky. Now I have learned a lesson. I will take all the blame but it was also innocent on my part.
> 
> P.S. We love Penny she is beautiful, wonderful, smart, crazy, and fun! You wouldn't believe how many people ask me about her because they want one too.


Hmm, that's really too bad. I would still suggest consulting your own lawyer, as the breeder's lawyer is obviously going to do whatever s/he can to support his/her client.

I got duped when I bought Maddie, too. The breeder told me that she was purebred and I could get papers but they would cost me an extra $1000. I was only 20 at the time and didn't have a lot of money, so I figured there was no point in getting papers for that much money when I never had any intention to show or breed Maddie. I later found out that the "breeder" was a sneaky backyard evil woman who was actually a reseller. I was pretty crushed, but at that time I couldn't find much information on Havanese and I didn't know anything about HOW to find a good breeder, etc. I just stumbled upon the "breeder", fell in love with Maddie, and couldn't walk away. Luckily, she has always been healthy and happy, and I didn't overpay, so I had no reason to go after her. I did report her to the proper authorities about her practices.

Anyhow, I definitely feel your frustration, but at the end of the day you have a happy, healthy, wonderfully cute little baby who brings you lots of joy.


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## harrach

I wish Penny would be able to go outside, and go potty on her own and then come back and knock on the door! That is sooo funny AND pretty good training too.

Unfortunately there are coyotes that live in our neighborhood and hawks (I don't think a hawk could pick her up any more since she weighs about 13 lbs now!), but I take her outside on a leash every time just in case. 

In the end, if we bring the breeder to court, we will represent ourselves. I don't want to spend more money fighting their lawyer with a lawyer. I doubt we would even get reimbursed for lawyer fees. Besides I have mountains of email correspondence from the breeder, and ads she has posted on all sorts of internet puppy sites, for evidence. I am confident that we have a very strong case.


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## galaxie

harrach said:


> I wish Penny would be able to go outside, and go potty on her own and then come back and knock on the door! That is sooo funny AND pretty good training too.
> 
> Unfortunately there are coyotes that live in our neighborhood and hawks (I don't think a hawk could pick her up any more since she weighs about 13 lbs now!), but I take her outside on a leash every time just in case.
> 
> In the end, if we bring the breeder to court, we will represent ourselves. I don't want to spend more money fighting their lawyer with a lawyer. I doubt we would even get reimbursed for lawyer fees. Besides I have mountains of email correspondence from the breeder, and ads she has posted on all sorts of internet puppy sites, for evidence. I am confident that we have a very strong case.


Not saying that you have to pay to bring a lawyer to court. Many lawyers will give you a consultation for free and that's good for a small bit of advice if you're going to represent yourself in small claims court. Also, if there's school of law at a nearby university, you can often get free legal advice there. I just wouldn't go into court without first consulting a lawyer!


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## eurobichons

harrach said:


> Penny IS really smart. Almost too smart for her own good sometimes! She was the star of her puppy training class. She is also a fast learner. If only she'd quit chasing our cats all over the house. Potty training her was pretty easy, but she still have occasional accidents and when she see's my kids she can pee from excitement. :dance:
> 
> Its cool about your neighbor's dog! So do you think that Havs and Shavs have similar personalities? I live in a small town and there aren't any Havs around here for me to compare.


 The coat difference shouldnt make their temperament any different than a long coated sibling , half sibling etc.


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## eurobichons

That little one is definitely a Shavanese, the problem you have is that, if she is then she is a pedigree just that she carries the SH gene which is recessive and only now has a test become available in the US by Vet Gen. So in the sense that you have bought a 100% pedigree you have, it may have its faults ie a SH gene but legally that is not the issue.

Now there is a way to seek compensation if within the contract (everyone should have one there are some very dodgy owners out there)you bought a proven long coated dog and that I doubt will be in anyones contract. Health wise the Shav is possibly healthier than its long coated family members so unless a health issue arises you cannot seek compensation for that. If you purchased her as a guarantee show dog then you will be able to seek compensation for that, once again all depends upon what is written within your contract. 
I have seen some breeders offer a one year health and genetic guarantee which as everyone should know is absolute tosh as most genetic disease does not rear its ugly head until later on in life, so donot be swayed by that ploy.


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## eurobichons

Have her parentage DNA profiled then publish the facts you receive from it, legally you cant be touched for that and it may deter potential owners from buying from this breeder.

You would require a sample from both alleged parents , I would not offer any guarantee with the breeder to prevent publishing.


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## eurobichons

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/
This Attorney specialises in dogbite laws in the uSA but he may be able to advise on the best pro bono attorney for your legal problem.


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## Sam375

Now, youknow that for your next dog, to do A LOT of research on the breeder.

Just showing pictures of shavanese at the same age as your dog, and Havanese at the same age as your dog would be proof enough if I was a judge!

What about contacting a Havanese expert/breeder and getting a written signed statement about the opinion of your dogs breed, or even a signed statement from a vet.?
Not sure how much DNA tests would cost, but I think your definately entitled to a partial refund.


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## imamurph

Is this a dead end??? I mean is anything going to be done about this???:ear:


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## harrach

So, just the other day the breeder's lawyer emailed me again with a new offer. The last offer, before Christmas, was supposedly their last and final offer (not a nice friendly offer either, basically take it or leave it... sucker). I guess thinking I'd greedily jump at a little money back right before Christmas. Anyway, the new offer is giving me more money back plus Penny's papers (her papers don't even matter to me, they are worthless). 

I also noticed that the breeder removed her webpage and has 3 new puppies for sale on some puppy selling sites now. This breeder must think we are stupid. I think she removed her site so that we couldn't use that info against her in court. (You know, like all the lies she said about her puppies, that they were health tested, registered with AKC and UKC, guaranteed etc. etc.). But luckily I had copied and printed her entire site months ago  

I'm still considering taking them to court, I'm just waiting for nice weather to travel over the passes here. If they return a LOT more money and don't require me to sign a confidentiality agreement, I'll take their offer. Otherwise they'll see me (well, my husband and me) in court. And even though they have a lawyer, we have tons of paperwork proof proving that they are crooks.

PS I LOVE Penny. She is the most hilarious puppy! I'll put a funny pic of her on here in a minute


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## harrach

Ok, here is Penny helping me do the dishes. She loves standing on the washer door!!!


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## Pixiesmom

She is adorable. You are standing tough-good for you!


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## Sheri

Her color is SO pretty! She's your rinse cycle, huh?

Good for you, not letting the breeder push you around. Do what feels right, and don't stop short of it.

Good to hear from you!


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## marjrc

It's funny because when I see your Penny, I always think of Eva PENNY who also has a short-haired Hav. Penny's a cutie pie and I'm glad you're going to go through with the issues with her breeder. It's not about Penny not being a good dog, but rather the promises made, the way the breeder cheated you, etc... Keep us posted and good luck !


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## harrach

Yup Sheri, occasionally she is the rinse cycle! If my family discovered that they'd never eat here again.


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## mckennasedona

Penny is so cute. The short haired Havs have a charm all their own. Such cute expressions on their faces and you can see their beautiful eyes.


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## tyra310

I have two short haired havs by choice. I love mine but you should have paid less not more.


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## krandall

harrach said:


> View attachment 27983
> 
> 
> Ok, here is Penny helping me do the dishes. She loves standing on the washer door!!!


Well, THAT is typical Hav... We call Kodi the pre-wash cycle.<g>


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## Missy

My boys would break the dishwasher door off! Penny is beautiful!


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## tyra310

Just so you know I bought my havanese knowing they were short haired my breeder was very honest and then about 3 months later they offered me her brother and we took him too. Penny is very cute. Is she fiddle front at all? (Bowed legs) if so have her liver enzymes tested before you settle. Hope she is healthy and happy.


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## tyra310

harrach said:


> View attachment 27983
> 
> 
> Ok, here is Penny helping me do the dishes. She loves standing on the washer door!!!


I left the dryer door open once while we were away from the house. AlGore jumped from the door to the top of the washer and couldnt get down. (he was after the cats food) He was stuck up there until we got home 5 hours later. And and pulled everything off the shelves behind. He never tried that again.


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## harrach

Hi Tyra, I took a peek at your photo album with your cuties!  AlGore looks more like Penny than Abby does but does AlGore's ear usually stay up? Penny's ears are always down and floppy and can't stand up at all. Do they have long hair that sort of looks like mutton chops on the sides of their heads? Penny has these sort of long side burns-mutton chops LOL. 

They are attention getters aren't they!


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## tyra310

*Abby and AlGore*

Yes I love my babies they certainly get a lot of attention. Al has one up ear and one down. Abby's ears were down but went up eventually and stayed that way. I was told what ever they are when they are done teething is where the ears stay. Yes they have the hair at the back of the legs and hind quarters tho it has thinned out some since they have turned a year old. There are some pics of different short haired havanese on google search. By the way the short haired do shed but the long haired do not. We've had a lot of snow this year and they didnt like it at first but now they love playing in the snow. I think penny is gorgeous. She does look more like AlGore because abby has a pointy snout and ears. Her face is more pointy than his. She is more out going, Al is more reserved. But he loves to be in my lap while I type. They both love car rides and go everywhere with me when the weather is not hot. They have another Hav friend and their best buddy lives two doors away and is a westie. Hope you enjoy Penny as much as we do ours. I think the short haired are cute and should be a breed standard like the long haired chihuahua, or the long haired dachsand and different than the stand but are just shown as another coat. How old is Penny?


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## tyra310

Oh yes and my guys has mutton chops too.


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## harrach

Penny is 8 months old now. Its interesting about their ears. The Shavanese with the up ears sort of look like chihuahuas. I think Penny looks more like some sort of hound dog especially since she points at birds and critters that she sees. She isn't good in our car, she gets car sick not far from our house. Then for the rest of the trip she looks sort of "green" or pale.  I guess she can't eat for a few hours before we go somewhere in the car. We just keep forgetting about that. Penny doesn't really shed! Our cats shed way more than she does. And she is totally out going. She especially loves kids and so she drives me crazy wanting to go outside to check the neighborhood for any kids outside playing. She also thinks that everyone that we come in contact with has to pet her and give her attention. We hung bells on our front door for her to ring if she has to go potty, it works but now she also rings the bells to look for kids and check out whats going on outside. She loves it outside so much that she keeps ringing the bells! :frusty: Like your's she also loves snow and rain but she's not really into ice or the wind. For New Years we shot off fireworks at our house and she was outside with us the entire time and wasn't afraid at all. When she hears the door bell ring (even on tv) she goes nuts barking and running because she is excited to see who it is.


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## Eva

Penny is so cute and her personality totally reminds me of my Todd! :biggrin1: 
Todd didn't shed at all until the spring of last year right before he turned a year old...then it started falling all over the house like snow..lol 
Once he finished shedding his puppy coat (took a few months) it tapered off but he does still shed now..just not heavily most of the time. 
We'll have to wait and see if this Spring is a repeat of last..I'm hoping not..it was pretty bad


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## tyra310

Mine started shedding at about 8 months. Is this the same time they talk about blowing coat (?) in the curly havs? they still dont shed alot though. Abby gets frightened of fireworks and guns but Al doesn't seem to notice. They both are put off by the wind. But snow and rain seem to be no problem.


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## harrach

I thought I'd give everyone a follow up since its been awhile and perhaps someone is interested in knowing how this all turned out. Some time in May, the breeder, through their lawyer, finally agreed to give us a big chunk of our money back and I never signed their confidentiality agreement either. So that issue is all taken care of. We also finally got her papers, even though we'd never breed her, besides she's spayed lol. 

Now for a weird twist, recently I saw a cute short haired Hav for sale and I posted a link to it a few days ago. (Needless to say I took some heat over posting that.) Now I found out that the puppy is related to Penny! That Shav puppy's mother is Penny's "sister" from an older litter, (same father but maybe a different mother). Go figure. So if anyone purchased a puppy from the Pacific Northwest area and is wondering if their puppy might be from this lineage, send me a message and I'll help you figure it out. These puppies are UKC registered so don't panic if your puppy is AKC!


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## good buddy

Thanks for the update! I couldn't quite remember the story so it's good you added to the same link so I could refresh my old memory. I'm happy for you that it worked out in your favor in the end and the breeder refunded a big chunk of cash. I'm sure you love Penny very much and would never have wanted to exchange her for a Hav with long hair but she wasn't what you expected and paid for originally and the breeder was crazy to ask such a price!


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## harrach

Unfortunately, that breeder *never* gave us the option of trading Penny in for a long haired Hav. She denied that Penny was a Shav, from the beginning and she quit talking to me. Later they hired a lawyer and tried to scare me into shutting up. But as time went by, they were afraid that my husband and I would take them to court, since that's what we were going to do. And that would make the whole issue public. So they ended up giving us the money back.


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## harrach

Here's a pic of her too


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## good buddy

harrach said:


> Here's a pic of her too
> View attachment 30912


She's really cute! Is this a current picture? Is so she really kept her markings well.


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## harrach

That pic that I posted is a few months old but you can look at my old and new pics of her here, http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/ I hope this works, I'm not sure how to send links to my flickr account. She has totally kept her color, she never faded either.


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## Eva

Awww...I Love Penny...but you know that..lol 
I'm happy to hear that her breeder finally stepped up and refunded your money


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## RikiDaisyDixie

*there is a white shavanese available at HRI - Rapael*

Go to www.havaneserecue.com, and click on fosters...See this little cutie...

Also please go to the thread on rescue, the 2010 Quilts are ready for viewing. You will get to see an HRI dog matched up with each Havanese Forum Hats Off to Havanese Quilt Square.

Isn't Rafael adorable?

http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=11892


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## krandall

harrach said:


> Unfortunately, that breeder *never* gave us the option of trading Penny in for a long haired Hav. She denied that Penny was a Shav, from the beginning and she quit talking to me. Later they hired a lawyer and tried to scare me into shutting up. But as time went by, they were afraid that my husband and I would take them to court, since that's what we were going to do. And that would make the whole issue public. So they ended up giving us the money back.


Good for you! I'm glad you stood up for yourself! And I'm glad you ended up with such a sweet cutie pie, even if she isn't a "regular" (long haired) Hav!


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## RikiDaisyDixie

*I think she is beautiful!*

And she will never have to endure the torture of her longer haired cousins!

She has the sweetest face. I know that you are just mad about her!


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## Julie

Penny is very cute and I'm so happy to read the breeder worked it out with you.:rockon:


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## harrach

I went through my old emails and I thought I share something with anyone who is reading this thread. I actually did some research before I bought Penny last year. Luckily I saved the emails between the breeder and me, just in case. So I copied and pasted below two emails between us. They are about me asking about *health testing* and her response. Also later in other emails she told me that I could actually register my puppy as AKC and UKC because of the sire being registered AKC and UKC. Unfortunately I believed everything she said because she sounded educated on the subject.

-----Original Message----- 
From: _my email address_ Date: 07/30/2009 
12:13 PM 
To: barbara- her email address Subject: Re: havanese babies 
Hi Barbara, 
I have a few more questions. Do you take credit cards? From the web site 
Havanese.org I found a lot of other important information that they suggest 
buyers ask of the breeder: Do you have Copies of the current CERF Certificate 
for BOTH parents, copies of BAER, OFA -Hips and Patella's, and any other tests 
that have been done on the Sire and Dam? We'd also like to receive copies of 
current CERF certificates for both parents,20 before we go to see the puppies on 
Saturday. We'd like to look over all the paperwork before Saturday, too. Can 
we get a blank copy of the contract so that we will be aware of what is expected 
of us as a buyer and of you, the breeder? When would we get the AKC numbers for 
the parents and the AKC litter number? Also do you have OFA-CHIC numbers? 
And/or can we have the registered names of both parents so we can check that 
info? thanks Carol

-----Original Message-----
From: barbara - _this is the breeder's email_
To: _this is where my email address_
Sent: Thu, Jul 30, 2009 6:59 pm
Subject: Re: havanese babies

Hi Carol, I am sure you are getting that info from AKC but...pups arent OFA as 
they grow until 2 years of age, Darla and Fiona have been cerf'd and our sire 
due to location has been tested but not by official Cerf. However, h e is both 
AKC and UKC registered coming from a long lineage of champs in AKC. Our vets do 
a thorough hip check, heart etc and to this day no hereditary health issues wit 
hour parent's or pups. In fact a local breeder has all the documentation but 
recently sold our friends a pup with hip dysplaysia. Plus due to many breeders 
in puppy mills we do not share this info due to replication. You can have the 
registered names and pups will be UKC registered. Lil Darla O'Chem and Deppes 
Angus Boldly goes are both full registered and healthy. They are in our home 
and part of our family which is why we encourage visits. We have one pup in 
Wenatchee on your side and one in Prosser. Barbara


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## krandall

Wow. It's easy to see how, as a novice without help, you could have easily been taken in. I guess the good thing is that despite her short coat, your little gal seems to be sweet and healthy.

I'm so glad I had a mentor to help me pick my breeder AND puppy!


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## marjrc

harrach said:


> Here's a pic of her too
> View attachment 30912


Awww, Carol, Penny is a cutie pie! The short-haired Havs keep their coloring I've noticed, since the tips don't grow out and end up cut. Lovely little girl! I'm happy you got some resolution to the situation with her breeder. If I didn't know better and spot all the contradictions and silly reasonings, I'd be impressed with her email to you too as she 'sounds' like she knows what she's talking about.


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## harrach

Thanks everyone, we totally love her. I don't think my pics of her do her justice. She is always on the move so I don't get her to pose for me. Usually I'll see a good pic but the second I move to get my camera, she's either jumped up and walking along with me, or she's watching me and moved.


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