# He bit me and drew blood



## Matilda (Apr 19, 2010)

We've had the puppy for a few weeks, and he is still pretty young. Just FYI.

Today we were out shopping, so he was in his play pen. As soon as we got home I took him out for potty, as always, and brought him in the house. He was playing really rough with the kids and our other dog, so I thought it would be a good idea to get him involved with something a little more constructive, so we played tug of war with one of his rope toys. He was playing really nicely, so I got a treat and gave it to him, and I petted him and was going to tell him he's a good boy when he growled and snapped at me. Not playing, but aggressive. So I picked him up to put him in his pen and he bit me on my hand. It was hard enough to make it bleed pretty freely, and I ended up having to put a band aid on it. I still put him in his pen. 

What do I do? He's never been aggressive before (well, not like this), in fact he's always been as sweet as pie. Lately he's getting more rough and tumble, and playing a bit rough with our older dog as well. What is the correct way to handle aggression? He is a sensitive little fellow, and seems to get sad when we tell him no, so I just put him in his playpen when he potties on the floor or behaves inappropriately. I feel like this is my fault somehow, like we must not be doing something right. He's really snatchy with treats, and when I give him one he kind of attacks to get it. I've gotten to where I just throw them on the ground for him. 

He seems to have a very sweet, lovely personality, and I want to keep it that way. Any tips?


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Matilda. When it comes to biting, I would always recommend getting a professional to come in. To try and analize things without being there ,is inappropriate. These things do not get better with time ,if they are not worked on. . Playing rough with anyone ,is not good. And there is nothing wrong with playing tug, so long as you have rules. But please take this seriously and get some help. Do not punish aggression, it only makes things worse.


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## Matilda (Apr 19, 2010)

Even in a puppy so young? I'm at a loss, really. We have a 9 year old German Shepherd who never even growled at us, or the kids. We've had this little fellow for a few weeks, and I have my first dog bite.  Is it possible he's just little and testing boundaries and got carried away?


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## LuvCicero (Mar 31, 2008)

I will give you my 2 cents but I'm sure there are others that will give you better training tips. When you got him out of the pen he probably needed to have a good run to work off some of the energy. Several times a day if you will toss a ball or play "I'm gonna catch you" and run toward him, then away, he will be more inclined to play once inside with a different energy level. A tired dog is a good dog.

I don't play tug of war as I think it can lead to aggression in some dogs. I think it's fine to play it with other dogs though. If you do play...never let him win...you are the boss. When Cicero tries to tug is when I teach the "drop it" and the second he lets go I say 'good boy'. He knows now if he tries to pull, my hand doesn't budge an inch and 'drop it' works as he wants me to toss the toy again.

I don't use the pen or crate for when he does something wrong because I want him to like those places. I ignore the bad - turn my back and walk away. I praise and act excited with everything he does good. Dogs will soon learn what gets them attention...or gets them ignored...and they will want to please. Unless you 'catch' him in the act of peeing, it does no good to scold him or put him in the pen - just ignore him and clean it up - and watch more closely or leash him to you.

I believe in the NILIF (Nothing in life is free) training. They should "sit" to get their food, water, treat, etc. Just stand still and hold his food bowl up and say "sit" one time. He may wiggle and jump around you, but be a tree, and he will finally sit down and look at you. The second he does, say "good boy" and put his bowl in front of him. He will learn quicker than you think, I believe. Then it will be easier with treats, toy, ect.

Hope this helps a little bit. Also, a puppy class at PetSmart would be a good thing to have someone work with you on basics.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Matilda said:


> Even in a puppy so young? I'm at a loss, really. We have a 9 year old German Shepherd who never even growled at us, or the kids. We've had this little fellow for a few weeks, and I have my first dog bite.  Is it possible he's just little and testing boundaries and got carried away?


Your other dog has no bearing on what this guy will be like. How old is he exactly. ? Dogs do not test boundaries, they act out of aggression for a reason. And the vast majority of aggression is fear based. Was he socialized with other dogs ie. puppy classes. The reason I ask ,is that the most important reason for puppy classes,is to teach bite inhibition.http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/teaching-bite-inhibition Don't worry about him playing aggressive with your GSD. I'm sure it will be a learning lesson for him ,if he gets inappropriate with him.


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## Havmama (Jun 28, 2010)

I'm not sure what the correct way to handle it is, but as you say you have children in your house I would take this very, VERY seriously. Call a professional ASAP. An aggressive dog, even a small one, is nothing to mess around with.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

This sounds to me it may be protecting his food/treat type of aggression, if this all happened over the treat, if you were petting him while he was eating and he reacted to you touching him by growling/snapping to protect his food, that is not too terribly uncommon with puppies to try to protect their food.

I do think that it isn't a good idea to play aggressively with puppies, of course they love it, but accidents can happen, like him biting one of the kids on accident while he's trying to bite to toy.

I agree with Dave that you may want to consider some trainer help with the food aggression. When Gucci was a puppy, I would often go pet her and touch her while she was eating so she learned to trust me, but if he is already biting you, you may want some guidance on how to do this without anyone else getting bit.

You have to stop this aggression/food thing as quick as you can, he is still just a baby and I"m sure it can be done. Hopefully, you'll get some great ideas and tactics together to train him to not be so overly protective of the food/treats.

Kara


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Matilda, here is a good article by Nichole Wilde on aggression. http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/getting-grip-aggression


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Here are some threads that might be of help to read, there are more too if you want to go search in the 'tips and training' section, here's a few of them:

http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=240&highlight=growling+food

http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=3107&highlight=growling+food

http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=3697&highlight=growling+food

Kara


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

Snarky dogs and food.... I am a failure there. Nessie is meeting with a trainer tomorrow. She is my 3 yr. old Aussie. 

There has always been a little bit of guarding issues with food. But I thought I solved it. Making her wait, handfeeding, etc. I avoided situations which would cause the scary snark attack. People food is a HUGE trigger. One nibble and her brain is gone. Big family gatherings uspet her sense of order - so I give her plenty of quiet time away from the crowd.

Nessie is very submissive. Shows belly to everybody - people or dogs. We were at the park and she went snarky on a porteguese water dog TWICE. warning growls, lunging, foam flying. Two weeks later, Nessie did it again to a yellow lab at the vet's office. What the h*ck!!? I am at a loss. Did she feel threatened? Scared? What? At home, whenever she snarked-out, she ran for her bed and laid there until the foul mood passed and we acknowledged her. But this is different!

We are doing a private lesson with the trainer. She told me to bring everything that I thought is a trigger. I need the training so I know what to do. Right now, my reaction is total mortification. What did I do to make her evil?

Well, If you want, I will tell you what the trainer says to me tomorrow but I suggest you meet with a trainer. My trainer offered me the option of meeting her at the training place or she would come to my home. Since Nessie wigged outside the home with strange dogs, I am going there. You may want a trainer to come to your house and watch the family interaction.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

morriscsps said:


> Snarky dogs and food.... I am a failure there. Nessie is meeting with a trainer tomorrow. She is my 3 yr. old Aussie.
> 
> There has always been a little bit of guarding issues with food. But I thought I solved it. Making her wait, handfeeding, etc. I avoided situations which would cause the scary snark attack. People food is a HUGE trigger. One nibble and her brain is gone. Big family gatherings uspet her sense of order - so I give her plenty of quiet time away from the crowd.
> 
> ...


Good for you for taking action. Let us know how things are going with the trainer.


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## Matilda (Apr 19, 2010)

It's been a busy morning, so I only have a minute for an update. I took him to the vet this morning, I figured that was the best start. She gave me a lot of good tips and things to think about. They played with him a lot to see if they could get him to react, and he didn't, so they said that he is not an aggressive natured dog. I didn't think he was. She said that he is trying to figure out his place in the family, so basically testing boundaries. she said something that I thought was really thought provoking; that I need to teach him to be a thinking dog instead of a pack dog. Right now I'm not teaching him to be a thinker. Also, the fact that he was the only puppy in the litter has something to do with it. There's a puppy class for socialization in town, so I will take him to that, but he has to wait 3 more weeks until he gets his next booster shot (he will be 16 weeks then). 

They also showed me a new way to give him his treats, and I can already see a huge improvement. I'm feeling much more optimistic today.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

That's great news, Matilda!:whoo:

I knew this sounded quite fixable, and if the new way of giving treats is already working, that's a wonderful sign that you can nip this in the budd..no pun intended.

And class will really help, too.. Keep us updated  Its nice to read positive endings to these threads.

Kara


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

Just got back from the trainer. My Aussie and I aren't failures. Thank goodness!! Nessie does have food guarding issues which I was handling correctly. The issue where she went snarky around other dogs is still in its infancy and can easily be addressed. phew... 

Nessie is never going to be an outgoing friendly pooch with other dogs. Aussies, like Border Collies, are perimeter dogs. They are happier watching the action and sweeping up around the edges. So, I shouldn't let strange dogs get in her face (which I usually don't allow anyway.)

Then Fran gave me all sorts of pointers on introducing Nessie to Jack in a couple of weeks. The goal is to never let her go snarky on him. Lots and lots of treats for being nice to the puppy. It is going to be a very slow process but it is a doable plan.

I feel better now. :thumb:


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

Matilda said:


> They also showed me a new way to give him his treats, and I can already see a huge improvement. I'm feeling much more optimistic today.


:whoo: That is great new! It is nice to have a professional pat you on the back and say, "It will be okay. You didn't ruin the puppy." :biggrin1:


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Matilda said:


> It's been a busy morning, so I only have a minute for an update. I took him to the vet this morning, I figured that was the best start. She gave me a lot of good tips and things to think about. They played with him a lot to see if they could get him to react, and he didn't, so they said that he is not an aggressive natured dog. I didn't think he was. She said that he is trying to figure out his place in the family, so basically testing boundaries. she said something that I thought was really thought provoking; that I need to teach him to be a thinking dog instead of a pack dog. Right now I'm not teaching him to be a thinker. Also, the fact that he was the only puppy in the litter has something to do with it. There's a puppy class for socialization in town, so I will take him to that, but he has to wait 3 more weeks until he gets his next booster shot (he will be 16 weeks then).
> 
> They also showed me a new way to give him his treats, and I can already see a huge improvement. I'm feeling much more optimistic today.


Hi Matilda. Yes , being the only puppy in the litter ,might partially explain his lack of bite inhibition. They learn this partly from their littermates but it is also important for the breeder and then you to follow up on this education. Like I said earlier, I don't like to guess as to the reasons he bit you. It could have been a guarding issue, or he could have associated your picking him up with being punished ie. put in his pen. Your dog is not necessarily a mean dog. But I still think this is an issue that needs a professional dog trainer, with experience in agggression. It was good to take him to the vet. I actually forgot to mention that route first. But the vet is not necessarily addressing the real problem by simply playing with him. He bit you for a reason. He even gave you a warning when he growled. When he growled you shouldn't have picked him up. I'm not sure I agree with what the vet said. Your dog is a typical puppy. They bite they guard ,they grab food. It is the way they think. It is our job to teach them alternate and appropriate behaviours. He is not trying to see what he can get away with , he is simply doing what dogs do. Dogs ARE NOT TRYING TO DOMINATE US. Puppy classes are always good. Glad you have decided to take him. Not sure if you are waiting because of the trainers requirements or whether you're waiting for the "OLD GUIDELINES "But I still recommend getting some one on one with a professional that deals with aggression. Please don't ignore what happened. I will come back with a couple of articles shortly. 
here's an article by AVSAB. These guys are vets as well as Behavior Specialists. What they are saying is that it is not necessary to wait until the final vacinations before going to puppy classes. The primary window for socialization is already closing at four months. And for years we have been given bad advice when we were told to wait for final vacs before socializing ,ie puppy classes. But here's the aritlcle http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/puppy socialization.pdf 
here's a great article on BITE INHIBITION http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/puppy-biting 
And another articel on RESOURCE GUARDING http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/my-dark-secret-i’m-resource-guarder


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## jillnors2 (Apr 12, 2007)

> They also showed me a new way to give him his treats, and I can already see a huge improvement


 I don't really understand this? Can you elaborate?

You can train the pup to sit for treats instead of throwing them. Pups learn how to sit very easily and they like working for treats.


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

It sounds as though you will have to do the exercise with him where you roll him on his back and hold him down, each night for about 20 seconds.
Do you know about this ? Others, am I explaining it right?


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## Matilda (Apr 19, 2010)

We don't use the playpen as punishment. The playpen is his safe place, and where he goes when he starts getting rowdy/overstimulated to calm down, and to give our older dog a break, too. I'm feeling a bit like some of you think we're mean to this dog. Not at all. If anything, we've been too lax with him because we wanted him to feel secure and bonded with us before we started working on behavior. And also, he likes his playpen. The only times he barks to get out are when he needs to go potty. He has his bed, food, toys, litter box there and I think we enjoys the quiet time as well. He does not fear being punished or going in his pen. I know why he bit me, he didn't want me to take his treat from him. Which, to a human is silly because I'm the one who gave it to him, but he obviously prized it and was afraid I was going to take it. 

I'm familiar with the alfa roll, but it's not really my style for dogs. I prefer to ignore bad behavior and reward the good. 

The treat thing is so simple I should have thought of it, but didn't. You start off by giving him a tiny pinch of treat between your fingers, and you don't give it to him until he takes it nicely. Then when you give it to him, you rub him all over his body telling him he's a good boy in a happy voice. Very simple, but it's working great, no more growls when he's getting a treat. Now he sits nicely for it, too. 

He has been improving very quickly, and is a smart little guy, so I think this will end up fine.


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

Another treat lesson is "Leave it". We learned this in puppy class. It teaches the puppy not to eat treats without permission. Vital for when they see things you don't want them to eat.

You show them the treat, put it on the floor, say 'leave it', and cup your hand over it. At first, he will go nuts trying to get it - licking your hand. When he gives up, pick it up and give it to him. Repeat.

Slowly, you work up to where he see the treat and doesn't dive for it. He waits for you to give it to him, even if you place it under his nose or on his paws.

It is an important lesson to learn. If you drop something, pills, chocolate, broken glass, you will want him to 'leave it.'

Here is a better explanation of how to teach it.
http://www.articlesbase.com/pets-articles/teaching-your-puppy-a-soft-mouth-leave-it-1019503.html


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

morriscsps said:


> Then Fran gave me all sorts of pointers on introducing Nessie to Jack in a couple of weeks. The goal is to never let her go snarky on him. Lots and lots of treats for being nice to the puppy. It is going to be a very slow process but it is a doable plan.
> 
> I feel better now. :thumb:


Fran? Fran Masters at MasterPeace? Thar's where we train too!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

gelbergirl said:


> It sounds as though you will have to do the exercise with him where you roll him on his back and hold him down, each night for about 20 seconds.
> Do you know about this ? Others, am I explaining it right?


NO, NO, NO, NO!!!!! These "alpha rolls" have been debunked for years. The only thing they do is traumatize the dog and dammage your relationship with him. It's even worse when you do it to a tiny puppy!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Matilda said:


> We don't use the playpen as punishment. The playpen is his safe place, and where he goes when he starts getting rowdy/overstimulated to calm down, and to give our older dog a break, too. I'm feeling a bit like some of you think we're mean to this dog. Not at all. If anything, we've been too lax with him because we wanted him to feel secure and bonded with us before we started working on behavior. And also, he likes his playpen. The only times he barks to get out are when he needs to go potty. He has his bed, food, toys, litter box there and I think we enjoys the quiet time as well. He does not fear being punished or going in his pen. I know why he bit me, he didn't want me to take his treat from him. Which, to a human is silly because I'm the one who gave it to him, but he obviously prized it and was afraid I was going to take it.
> 
> I'm familiar with the alfa roll, but it's not really my style for dogs. I prefer to ignore bad behavior and reward the good.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you are using his pen absolutely appropriately, and that you've got a handle on the food guarding too. Good for you for refusing to do alpha rolls!!!

I _DO_ think you can make him feel comfortable and help him settle in and work on his training (and therefore, behavior) at the same time. If you are using positive training techniques, training should be a fun, bonding time with your pup. He'll look forward to working for/with you!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

gelbergirl said:


> It sounds as though you will have to do the exercise with him where you roll him on his back and hold him down, each night for about 20 seconds.
> Do you know about this ? Others, am I explaining it right?


Hi, here's some info on Alpha Rolls

http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose/dominance.aspx

http://www.fun4fido.co.uk/blog/debunking-the-dominance-myth.html

Article by Angelica Steinker
Most of us have heard the terms alpha roll and scruff shake. Here are the facts. There is absolutely no scientific evidence that alpha rolls or scruff shakes are useful dog training techniques. There is evidence that positive punishment (the scientific term for what alpha rolls and scruff shakes are meant to achieve) damages your bond with your dog and may cause stress or even aggression. The originally observed alpha roll was actually a submissive wolf offering his or her belly rather than being forcibly bowled over. Unfortunately for dogs, the alpha roll became popular world-wide and to this day misguided humans alpha roll dogs thinking they are showing their dominance. In reality, alpha rolls and scruff shakes frighten dogs and may cause some to become aggressive and bite. Gradually it became known in professional dog training circles that alpha rolls were not effective dog training. Yet many trainers cling to the disproved methods either unable or unwilling to adjust their behavior. Now that you have read this article you can educate them!

Scruff shakes are used by wolves and dogs to communicate or to kill prey. Tactile communication of wolves is an area relatively unexplored by research so it is unknown what exactly a wolf may be communicating when she grabs her pups by the scruff and gives them a light shake. Other scruff grabbing and shaking behaviors are very easy to understand as they are intended to break the neck of the prey so that they can be consumed. If you grab the scruff of your dog's neck and shake her, you run the risk of scaring her and she might bite you.

According to dog training historian Glenn Martyn, the origin of the scruff shake and alpha roll appears to be from dog training literature in both Northern American and English dog training books of the 1930-1950's. That was a long time ago, it's time to get updated!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Matilda said:


> We don't use the playpen as punishment. The playpen is his safe place, and where he goes when he starts getting rowdy/overstimulated to calm down, and to give our older dog a break, too. I'm feeling a bit like some of you think we're mean to this dog. Not at all. If anything, we've been too lax with him because we wanted him to feel secure and bonded with us before we started working on behavior. And also, he likes his playpen. The only times he barks to get out are when he needs to go potty. He has his bed, food, toys, litter box there and I think we enjoys the quiet time as well. He does not fear being punished or going in his pen. I know why he bit me, he didn't want me to take his treat from him. Which, to a human is silly because I'm the one who gave it to him, but he obviously prized it and was afraid I was going to take it.
> 
> I'm familiar with the alfa roll, but it's not really my style for dogs. I prefer to ignore bad behavior and reward the good.
> 
> ...


Matilda , no one thinks you are being mean to your dog. If what you say is true , and this is resource guarding, this is one of the exceptions to the rule, " ignore the bad and reward the good. " No one should ignore growling or biting. It is a great idea to teach your dog to Take food gently. But that will not teach him not to resource guard. This subject is quite involved. Jean Donaldson has written an entire book on the subject. The book is called MINE . Before this happens again , at least buy the book. Like Jean says,
" &#8230; resource guarding
responds well to
desensitization,
counterconditioning,
and well-executed
operant techniques &#8230;"


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

krandall said:


> Fran? Fran Masters at MasterPeace? Thar's where we train too!


yup! that Fran. Is yours the Hav that Michele grooms? And does agility? I used to do the Friday morning agility class with Mike. I dragged my two Aussie mixes with me. Then about 1.5 yrs ago, I hurt my hip (Stupid Snowblower) and haven't been back. I am starting up again. Puppy kindergarten with Jack. Agility with Nessie.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

morriscsps said:


> yup! that Fran. Is yours the Hav that Michele grooms? And does agility? I used to do the Friday morning agility class with Mike. I dragged my two Aussie mixes with me. Then about 1.5 yrs ago, I hurt my hip (Stupid Snowblower) and haven't been back. I am starting up again. Puppy kindergarten with Jack. Agility with Nessie.


Yup! He's the one!<g> We do agility with Mike and Obedience and Rally with Fran and APDT Rally with Karen Squier. We were doing agility on Saturdays, but it hasn't been working out with my schedule. So we're switching to the Tues. evening Small Dog Agility class. Pam, owner of Lindy Hop, and Forum member, has been doing that class too.

When are you doing agility with Nessie? It's fun to see so many Havs over at MasterPeace. Fran told me that she's so impressed with Kodi and some of the other Havs that if she does another small dog in the future, it may well be a Hav rather than another Papillon.


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

We get Jack next week and I signed him up for the Thurs. 6pm kindergarten class. I will probably do a refresher beginner agility class for Nessie (my Aussie) on Friday mornings. I am usually the goofy owner who can't count and is twirling around like a ballerina. One time Nessie actually laid down during a run until I could figure out what I wanted her to do. :laugh:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

morriscsps said:


> We get Jack next week and I signed him up for the Thurs. 6pm kindergarten class. I will probably do a refresher beginner agility class for Nessie (my Aussie) on Friday mornings. I am usually the goofy owner who can't count and is twirling around like a ballerina. One time Nessie actually laid down during a run until I could figure out what I wanted her to do. :laugh:


That's pretty funny! We do drop-in Obedience on Thurs. morning, and our new agility class is Tues. nights. We're there for Rally on Wed. mornings too, but it looks like our times don't coincide.

Well, you'll have to come so we can all meet you the next time we have a N.E. Havablast play date! Also, as long as your dogs are trustworthy on an unfenced (but WAY away from the road) property, you're welcome to come to my house for some agility (or Rally) practice at some point if you're interested.


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

Thanks for the offer! Very sweet of you. I would love to come to the next NE havablast playdate when Jack is old enough. I need to first _get_ him and then teach him the 'recall' command. I do have to say (very smugly) that so far all of my dogs have been good at coming when called. It is the only thing they do .... sigh...

I wonder how Jack will do. I have heard that 'stubborn' is the Havanese's middle name.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

morriscsps said:


> Thanks for the offer! Very sweet of you. I would love to come to the next NE havablast playdate when Jack is old enough. I need to first _get_ him and then teach him the 'recall' command. I do have to say (very smugly) that so far all of my dogs have been good at coming when called. It is the only thing they do .... sigh...
> 
> I wonder how Jack will do. I have heard that 'stubborn' is the Havanese's middle name.


Oh, for Havablast he doesn't need a recall... that's always held at the home of someone with a fenced yard. And with all those other dogs around, the puppies USUALLY hang very close to their moms. If you were to come over here to play agility, we could put the pup in an ex-pen out near us. I've done that before for other people.

As far as being stubborn is concerned, I don't find that at all. I have a hard time believing there are many dogs who like working more than Kodi does. I only have a sample size of one, but I don't think he's stubborn at all!


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

I have 3 and I wouldn't call any of them stubborn. The girl is a little more headstrong than the boys, but she is "biddable" as they say.

Now, my daughter's Schnauzer/Poodle cross...he's stubborn!


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

Matilda said:


> The treat thing is so simple I should have thought of it, but didn't. You start off by giving him a tiny pinch of treat between your fingers, and you don't give it to him until he takes it nicely. Then when you give it to him, you rub him all over his body telling him he's a good boy in a happy voice. Very simple, but it's working great, no more growls when he's getting a treat. Now he sits nicely for it, too.
> 
> He has been improving very quickly, and is a smart little guy, so I think this will end up fine.


Hey Matilda!

How is it going now that you have a couple of days with the new treat methods? Have you been able to find a trainer you like?


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