# When was your hav free to roam your home?



## jmombo (Jul 7, 2013)

I have 2 hav puppies. They are both in their own expens, side by side. The pens are in our living room, central to everyone. The pups don't seem to mind being in them at all. We make sure to give them each A LOT of their own snuggle and play time.... but I am really looking forward to the days when they are free to roam the house and lay on the couches with us.. even sleep in our beds. I guess my question is, how will I know when they are ready to be free? Did you test them by expanding their pen size and testing them little by little... or did you just let them out and give it a go one day??? I'm curious how this has worked with those of you who have older havs.
How old was your hav when they reached that point of home freedom? TIA


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

My pup more or less roams the house now. He's crated at night and when we are gone. 

I never used an ex-pen. During his first couple of weeks home, I kept him on a leash next to my desk so I could watch him. I took him out frequently for walks or a quick fetch game so quite often he wanted to nap or chew on something. At night hanging around watching TV etc we let him roam around. We had a few accidents but he wasn't too bad. I was surprised at how good he was actually. We taught him to ring a bell by the door. 

I decided from the get go I wasnt going to allow my hav on the couch or on the bed. I might change my mind with the couch when he is older and fully grown, but for now, I worry about his legs etc jumping off things. I think its too risky. As far as my bedroom, its a dog free zone. I have allergies so I just dont go there. I dont even keep clothes in the closet. I also want my dog to have some sense of independence. He spends a lot of time with us since I home office, but I wanted him to be comfortable in a crate. This way he can travel, he will sit quietly while at dog training, and he (hopefully) wont be "that dog" at the groomer barking and annoying everyone!


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

One year old.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

I got Tillie at 14 weeks and because our house is so tiny, she pretty much had "free roam" of the living room right away. I was home 24/7 and watched her like a HAWK, a week later I started bell training and she took to it very quickly. Our house is actually a tad to small for an ex-pen set up, so we had her in the living room when we were home and at night and eventually as I left her during the day she was in her crate in our bedroom.
I watched her VERY closely and she was never more than a few steps away from me until she was about 5-6 months old.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

only you will know when you can take your eye off of them . Basic rule of thumb , if you can't watch them , in the expen they go. You 've got two different methods going ,which is fine. When they consistently go where they are supposed to for a few months , then you can hope to take an eye off. . My method for Molly is only for people who are home all day. Every dog is different. You'll know when , but nothings for sure. lol . You're doing good though, be patient.


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## jcbpaisley (Mar 6, 2013)

Diva graduated from the expen to having the run of our apartment at 5 months, BUT, our apartment is tiny. Really just two rooms when we're gone, because we shut the bedroom and bathroom doors. When we're home she can run around. We stopped crating her for bed about a month ago because it was hard for her to be forced to be separate from us. Now she comes and licks us at bedtime, then settles at our feet for a few mins, and usually sleeps the night on the floor next to the bed.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

The other thing to consider its that some dogs don't LIKE being loose when you aren't there with them. Kodi is 4, completely house trained and would get in any sort of trouble while we're out. But he's CLEARLY not happy if we leave him loose.

For times when I'll only be out for a couple of hours, I just tell him to "get in your house" and he RUNS into his crate and waits for me to shut the door. If I'm going to be out for a long period of time, I gate him in my office, with his crate, litter box and water. Even though he's not shut in the crate at those times, he's ALWAYS in the crate when we get back home.

I think, as far as your two are concerned, even if you eventually plan to leave them loose, they are MONTHS, and possibly a year away from that. Remember, it's not only a potty training issue. You have to be SURE they are completely past chewing or getting into other types of trouble. there is a lot of dangerous stuff in the house for an adolescent puppy to get into.


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## FRANKBULLETT (Mar 31, 2013)

*roaming free.*

16 weeks when I was home - which was most of the time. 24 weeks full time. She was trained to only go outside and understood that by then and could hold it. I did not, however, leave her for more than a few hours and watched her "schedule" closely. Likely depends on the pup and how they are trained. I am not a fan of training to go indoors so Bandit was trained for outside from the beginning. She would wake me up at about 18-20 weeks if she had to go at night.


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## fishtwinslink (Dec 9, 2012)

Between 4-6 months Lincoln had access to the whole first floor of our house but we have an open floor plan which allows us to really keep an eye on him in the kitchen/living/family room space all at once. However, we would baby gate off the mudroom (which has always been his space where he went when we couldn't watch him when he was younger and and it is still where he goes when we leave the house) which is what we used as an "ex pen" . It has his water, toys & crate and he knows that as his space. At night, he still goes to his crate to sleep (door shut) but during day he will choose to rest in his crate door open. We still baby gate off the upstairs and only let him up there when we are upstairs as well...mainly because he likes to rummage through the laundry  He's 9 months old now and was really easy to house break and never used an indoor potty (took a lot of commitment, but I took him out diligently despite the cold & snowy winter and learned his cues early. ) 
Maybe someday (12 months?) I will take the gates down but for now it seems to work for us


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

jmombo said:


> I have 2 hav puppies. Miggy is 13 weeks and Kit Kat is 9 weeks. They are both in their own expens, side by side. Miggy only potties outside and holds it through the night. He stays in his pen unless we are taking him outside (every 2 hours throughout the day) or are holding/playing with him in the house. Kit Kat has a litter box in her pen and has pottied outside but, so far, prefers to use her litter box. I am grateful that she is using it because she goes potty so often that I know we'd have mess after mess if she wasn't. The pens are in our living room, central to everyone. The pups don't seem to mind being in them at all. We make sure to give them each A LOT of their own snuggle and play time.... but I am really looking forward to the days when they are free to roam the house and lay on the couches with us.. even sleep in our beds. I guess my question is, how will I know when they are ready to be free? Did you test them by expanding their pen size and testing them little by little... or did you just let them out and give it a go one day??? I'm curious how this has worked with those of you who have older havs.
> How old was your hav when they reached that point of home freedom? TIA


 I read your post and am wondering why you separated the two pups? I was waiting for someone else to ask but no one did. Is it a training thing? I would not have even thought to separate Zoey and Maddie. I'm just very curious? 
When I brought Zoey home I showed a video of the two sharing a bowl of food. I had people say don't do that, I never understood why? I didn't change and today they still share the same water and bowl of food. They share the same bed, Kennel and leash.. The vet asked me if they get along and I said yes. Zoe tries to be the dominate one she act's mean but Maddie just gets her way in the end. Its hard to train the two at once and I failed at having one on one. Because if I seperate them The one left alone cries. Maybe thats why you aren't having them bond the way I did? like I said I'm just currious.


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## jmombo (Jul 7, 2013)

Suzi said:


> I read your post and am wondering why you separated the two pups? I was waiting for someone else to ask but no one did. Is it a training thing? I would not have even thought to separate Zoey and Maddie. I'm just very curious?
> When I brought Zoey home I showed a video of the two sharing a bowl of food. I had people say don't do that, I never understood why? I didn't change and today they still share the same water and bowl of food. They share the same bed, Kennel and leash.. The vet asked me if they get along and I said yes. Zoe tries to be the dominate one she act's mean but Maddie just gets her way in the end. Its hard to train the two at once and I failed at having one on one. Because if I seperate them The one left alone cries. Maybe thats why you aren't having them bond the way I did? like I said I'm just currious.


I separated them for a few reasons. One was because I knew I would need quiet and peaceful one on one time with each of them, to be able to train them. Also I was concerned that, as very young pack animals, they may have a tendency to bond too closely with each other and not enough with each of us. My goal is to develop, not just their feeling of security during alone time, but to create the best environment for them to bond with us as as well as each other. They seem very comfortable having their pens side by side. They can see each other and even lay by each other if they choose to. Within a couple of days, they learned that it is when they do not whine and cry that we have play and snuggle time... So we don't have any issues with them crying in there now. When the other is out of the pen. They will just sit there with their tail wagging, waiting for their turn. They learn quickly that their turn is coming because they always get one after the other. If you don't respond to the whining and crying and you reward them with hugs and praise every time they are quiet and behaved, like children, they will do what works. Another reason them being separated has worked so well is that Miggy is only pottying outside and Kit Kat is using a litter box. When I tried the litter box with Miggy, he only wanted to use it for a bed.... and I don't think Miggy would like Kit Kat pooping in his bed!  They do have play time together. We let them wrestle around on the floor in the living room and they run around in the yard together everyday. They get along great. So far this is working very well. Much better than I had ever anticipated. They seem very happy and content... and they learn sooo incredibly fast. I just love them!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> I read your post and am wondering why you separated the two pups? I was waiting for someone else to ask but no one did. Is it a training thing? I would not have even thought to separate Zoey and Maddie. I'm just very curious?
> When I brought Zoey home I showed a video of the two sharing a bowl of food. I had people say don't do that, I never understood why? I didn't change and today they still share the same water and bowl of food. They share the same bed, Kennel and leash.. The vet asked me if they get along and I said yes. Zoe tries to be the dominate one she act's mean but Maddie just gets her way in the end. Its hard to train the two at once and I failed at having one on one. Because if I seperate them The one left alone cries. Maybe thats why you aren't having them bond the way I did? like I said I'm just currious.


I think you've answered all your own questions, Suzi! You are lucky your girls get along so well... not all dogs would share a food bowl! Also, it's really hard for even an experienced dog to train two dogs at the same time. One-on-one time is pretty important for training. (for instance, how could you EVER use a clicker with two dogs at the same time? How could they possibly know what behavior, done by which one, was being clicked?) Lastly, there are time that dogs HAVE to be separated... if one is ill and needs to be hospitalized, for instance. It is much better if they are comfortable being crated separately, so that this kind of separation doesn't cause them extra stress on top of their illness.


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## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

I gave our dog run of the house about a year after we got him however I don't think they should all have run of the house. For my dog, we found that keeping him confined to the kitchen was the best thing to do. My friend who has a bichon does the same thing. I think sometimes the entire house can be a bit much for our little dogs and a nice part of the house provides more comfort when we are gone. Now again, this is what worked best for our dog.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> only you will know when you can take your eye off of them . Basic rule of thumb , if you can't watch them , in the expen they go. You 've got two different methods going ,which is fine. When they consistently go where they are supposed to for a few months , then you can hope to take an eye off. . My method for Molly is only for people who are home all day. Every dog is different. You'll know when , but nothings for sure. lol . You're doing good though, be patient.


I realise this is quite an old thread now, but it seemed pointless to start another one on this well-documented subject.

Trying SO hard to follow this wise advice (and lots of the other really useful posts here), Dave. Cuba is about ninety per cent ok now, either in her ex pen, or in a gated off sort of conservatory room. When she is free-roaming in our main living room I do watch her like a hawk, but even that isn't enough for the occasional, totally unpredictable and immediate squat and wee, or even twice now a poo, which she chooses to do on an armchair, or yesterday we went back to square one and she peed in her bed again....errrrggggggg!! She will be ten months old tomorrow. She's SO quick to learn other things, much quicker than my other dog, but he was a breeze to house train compared with her. I'm guessing from the post quoted that patience is what's needed, but it is SO frustrating when things seem to be going so well and suddenly it's all going backwards again. She never pees in her ex pen where she spends the night, although she has a litter box in it. She always waits for me to come down in the morning and let her out, and is often bursting to go. She almost always uses her litter box in the conservatory except when she doesn't...suddenly there'll be a totally unpredictable (at least to me) pee on the floor, or in her bed, as if she's never learned any of the other stuff. If I leave her in her ex pen during the day, separated from Tycho, she howls and creates; the conservatory is relatively small and gated off with wire panels like her ex pen, but she seems to think this slightly larger space is fair game for, every so often, going where she wants. I'm worried I'm not setting her up well, somehow, but just don't know what else to do. Even if I watch her constantly when she decides to wee it's already too late. I daren't take her to anyone else's house at the moment, for fear of something similar happening. Help!!!


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

After 2 years.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

gelbergirl said:


> After 2 years.


Well, in a way that cheers me up and makes me feel that, at 10 months, perhaps things aren't as awful as I'd thought!! I realise that every puppy is different, and I guess I've just been lucky with my previous two, but it's difficult to understand why a very smart learner in all other respects should be so slow to catch on, despite working hard at routine and clear (to me!) outlines, at this one thing. I guess what is clear to me isn't necessarily clear to her....


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> Well, in a way that cheers me up and makes me feel that, at 10 months, perhaps things aren't as awful as I'd thought!! I realise that every puppy is different, and I guess I've just been lucky with my previous two, but it's difficult to understand why a very smart learner in all other respects should be so slow to catch on, despite working hard at routine and clear (to me!) outlines, at this one thing. I guess what is clear to me isn't necessarily clear to her....


Kodi didn't pee places he wasn't supposed to after a very early age, but we did find the occasional "tootsie roll" where it didn't belong for much longer than I would have liked. I don't understand, either, how this breed can be SO smart in some ways, and so slow to be reliable in the potty training department.

But I firmly believe that dogs do the best they can do at any particular time based on what they know and the environment. So I HAVE to believe that it IS something that they haven't fully internalized when they make a mistake.

The good news is that with patience, persistence and close supervision (and/or confinement) they DO eventually "get it".

Any "mistakes" Kodi has had in the house as an adult have been CLEARLY the fault of a human&#8230; Like recently when WE made the mistake of leaving Kodi loose in the evening, when my younger son (but he's 21, so you would THINK he could be responsible for looking after one small dog for the evening!!!) was home. My son, it seems, TOTALLY ignored Kodi for the evening, even when he barked at the door to go out. ("Oh! I thought he was just barking at something in the driveway!" ) So we found a little pile RIGHT beside the door. Can't really blame the DOG for that!!! :frosty: In some ways, dogs are a LOT easier to train than children!!!

Since then, even if T is home, we treat Kodi as if NO ONE is home, and set him up in my office with a litter box.


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## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

Leo is 10.5 months old. We are just recently giving him more freedom and less closely supervised time in the house. I still will run him out for a quick potty break sometimes rather than rely on him to tell me he has to go. Leo's only had 2 pee accidents and no poop accidents since we got him. I want to trust at this point that if he needed to go and I didn't take him that he would come let me know which he has done a couple times. Not quite there yet. I have always erred on the side of caution when it comes to housetraining and when dogs are old enough and reliable enough to leave them completely unsupervised. I guess I feel that if you take time to help your dog establish really good potty habits when young then hopefully over their lifetime those good habits will hold. We still crate/expen our dogs when we are both gone. This keeps them out of trouble, safe and accustomed to crating for times such as emergencies, illness or travel when crating is essential.


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## MonkeyLove (Aug 3, 2013)

My hav is a rescue, and we were lucky enough to have him already be potty trained (i think he made an accident in the house once.. but that was in the beginning and we didnt understand his signs...) We crate trained him for about five months, and then decided we wanted him in the bed with us (and at this point he wasn't scared/anxious, and wouldn't chew things up anymore... mind you he was already a year old when we rescued him). Little by little we weaned him out of the crate. I've had him for about 8 months and we don't need to crate him for anything anymore... he has free range of the house, and our bed, and he doesn't chew or make accidents in the house. 

We set up his own bed at the foot of our bed which he sometimes uses also.

It's really nice without the crates, and i really feel like he's more happier.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Pucks104 said:


> We still crate/expen our dogs when we are both gone. This keeps them out of trouble, safe and accustomed to crating for times such as emergencies, illness or travel when crating is essential.


I think this is SUCH an important point&#8230; that confinement isn't ALL about potty training. It's about SAFETY. We all try to keep our dogs safe, but particularly around the holidays, with other people in and out of the house, excitement, presents opened and left around&#8230; Things can happen.

This was brought home to me Christmas night, when I got a call from my brother. He has a wonderful, well-behaved, quiet half Bassett Hound, and the dog was left loose in the house while we we at my OTHER brother's house for a CHristmas get-together. They came home to find that Rocky had eaten a bunch of semi-sweet Hershey's Kisses that had been left on a low table. (foil wrappers and all) Fortunately, he's OK, but it made for a nervous-making couple of days.

It made me feel VERY happy that Kodi had been left gated in my office while we were out of the house. I looked around with a new eye after I heard about Rocky, and could see SEVERAL things a dog could have gotten in trouble with at our house too!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> But I firmly believe that dogs do the best they can do at any particular time based on what they know and the environment. So I HAVE to believe that it IS something that they haven't fully internalized when they make a mistake.
> The good news is that with patience, persistence and close supervision (and/or confinement) they DO eventually "get it".
> Any "mistakes" Kodi has had in the house as an adult have been CLEARLY the fault of a human&#8230; .


Thanks, Karen, and everyone; it is SO helpful hearing other people's stories, it makes one feel less isolated, the sharing of it all. I'm sure that the fault is mine; she wouldn't wilfully NOT understand, so I'm obviously not being clear so that she CAN understand. Today has been a good day (so far - we're doing well, it's already 6pm in the UK!); I've been super careful to let her out often and to keep her in the conservatory where she has space but not too much. I'm still a firm believer in the litter box although purist friends say 'get rid of them', and think that they are the problem, for giving the dog permission to go indoors. All that I've read about litter boxes refutes such thinking, but it's hard to defend one's position sometimes, and heavy opposition does make me waver. But not much! I'm still sure, based mostly on what I've read on this forum, that litter boxes are a good thing. She uses hers reliably except for the occasional total lapse....patience, patience, patience!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> Thanks, Karen, and everyone; it is SO helpful hearing other people's stories, it makes one feel less isolated, the sharing of it all. I'm sure that the fault is mine; she wouldn't wilfully NOT understand, so I'm obviously not being clear so that she CAN understand. Today has been a good day (so far - we're doing well, it's already 6pm in the UK!); I've been super careful to let her out often and to keep her in the conservatory where she has space but not too much. I'm still a firm believer in the litter box although purist friends say 'get rid of them', and think that they are the problem, for giving the dog permission to go indoors. All that I've read about litter boxes refutes such thinking, but it's hard to defend one's position sometimes, and heavy opposition does make me waver. But not much! I'm still sure, based mostly on what I've read on this forum, that litter boxes are a good thing. She uses hers reliably except for the occasional total lapse....patience, patience, patience!!


I don't know that you've been doing anything wrong&#8230; only that you need to do it longer.  If I remember right, she even eliminated in her bed when you first got her, right? That makes me think that her breeder may not have given her a very good start in the potty training department. From what I've seen and read here on the forum, that can make a HUGE difference. It doesn't make it impossible to train them, but it can take a lot longer!

She'll get there!!!:hug:

Oh, and as far as those nay-sayer friends are concerned, have they ever OWNED a small dog that was raised FROM THE BEGINNING with a litter box? (or other indoor option?) If not, they don't know what they re talking about. I have YET to hear of a SINGLE dog who failed at potty training because of being offered an acceptable indoor alternative. People with big dogs just don't have a good, viable option&#8230; a Great Dane peeing in a litter box would flood the kitchen! :laugh:


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> I don't know that you've been doing anything wrong&#8230; only that you need to do it longer.  If I remember right, she even eliminated in her bed when you first got her, right? That makes me think that her breeder may not have given her a very good start in the potty training department. From what I've seen and read here on the forum, that can make a HUGE difference. It doesn't make it impossible to train them, but it can take a lot longer!
> 
> She'll get there!!!:hug:
> 
> Oh, and as far as those nay-sayer friends are concerned, have they ever OWNED a small dog that was raised FROM THE BEGINNING with a litter box? (or other indoor option?) If not, they don't know what they re talking about. I have YET to hear of a SINGLE dog who failed at potty training because of being offered an acceptable indoor alternative. People with big dogs just don't have a good, viable option&#8230; a Great Dane peeing in a litter box would flood the kitchen! :laugh:


Thank you, dear Karen, for helpful, encouraging and restorative words, and the much-needed hug! Yes, you are right that she used to use her bed for a litter box when I first got her, and I do think very early habits have been a less than great start. I thought changing to a furry bed had cured that particular issue, but yesterday she peed on the furry bed, so bang went that hypothesis! 
Re the nay-sayers, I think you are right, they are unused to small dogs and haven't ever tried an option that seems to me to be totally practical and workable as long as the dog IS small.... The kitchen-flooding Great Dane image has cheered me up a lot!!!


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## FRANKBULLETT (Mar 31, 2013)

*Home Alone*

Bandit was free to roam the entire house, when I was in the house, at about 6 months and 8 months when I was gone and she was alone. Never have had a problem with any damage or elimination. I take her most everywhere so she get plenty of opportunity plus a lot of exercise and attention. I makes a difference.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

FRANKBULLETT said:


> Bandit was free to roam the entire house, when I was in the house, at about 6 months and 8 months when I was gone and she was alone. Never have had a problem with any damage or elimination. I take her most everywhere so she get plenty of opportunity plus a lot of exercise and attention. I makes a difference.


That was more or less how it was with both my Cotons, but Cuba gets plenty of attention, pretty much the same regime, and it's completely different with her. I guess it's just partly luck/bad luck, maybe very early habits that are hard to break....it honestly isn't any lack of 'opportunity', exercise or attention!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> That was more or less how it was with both my Cotons, but Cuba gets plenty of attention, pretty much the same regime, and it's completely different with her. I guess it's just partly luck/bad luck, maybe very early habits that are hard to break....it honestly isn't any lack of 'opportunity', exercise or attention!


Yeah, Kodi came from a breeder who did EVERYTHING possible to start the puppies right on potty training, I followed up on it pretty religiously, and He got TONS of exercise, was with me most of the time and went on outings at least daily. &#8230;I still would not have been comfortable leaving him loose in the house at that age&#8230; there is just too much that a puppy can get into, and you never know WHEN they are going to think of it&#8230;.

Like the time (when we were HOME in the house with him) Kodi decided to go after some dried grasses in an arrangement in our entry way. They's been there for MONTHS and he's paid no attention to them. THAT day, he decided to go after them, breathed them up his nose, and needed an emergency trip to the vet! 

*I* feel more secure knowing that, even at 4 1/2, he is in a small, secure space where there is nothing that can hurt him. He has also shown on the few occasions that we HAVE run out for a short while and left him loose, that he is MUCH happier in my office, where he can curl up in his crate and feel secure.

To each his own, but I've just heard too many stories of dogs getting themselves into serious trouble after YEARS of "NEVER" getting into trouble. I just don't want to take the chance.


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## Ruthiec (Jun 18, 2013)

Lalla I do sympathise because it does put a bit of a strain when you feel you have to watch and think for your pup all the time. At 7 months we thought that Charlie would take ages before he became reliable because of the complete lack of an obvious "I need to wee" signal. He reliably pooped outside at this stage so it was the little puddles that were the problem.

The turning point for us and him was the install of a pet flap (in the laundry screen door, not in Charlie) in early October. This was when he was about 71/2 months old and within 2 weeks he was taking himself out whenever he needed to. Before this we had a few wee accidents each week because he didn't signal anything but since the install we've only had one little poo in the house, which I can't explain. But other than that he has been perfect and now has free run of the house when we are out. This has increased our joy in him hugely because we can now relax and don't need to be thinking all the time "where's Charlie?" And "Does he need to go?"

It just feels like once we changed the set-up, something in Charlie's brain twigged - almost a "oh right, I need to go out through that flap thing now because I need to wee". So in our case it was a change that helped rather than consistently doing the same thing. This seems completely at odds with what you would expect and I'm not for a minute recommending this path. Perhaps we just have a contrary little boy


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

By eight weeks puppies develope a preference for certain substrates if guided by the breeder . So if the breeder did not persue this , a pup learns to indiscriminantly eliminate on surfaces it previously used. Dogs become confused when changes are made in their preferred routine. One of the biggest reasons for regressions in housetraining is failure to provide quick and easy access. They can learn to discriminate between surfaces that are "appropriate" and ones that are not. The key is to give them access to their preferred substrate/area at any time. Sometimes they can develope an aversion to a preferred area and one example is if the weather is inclement. There are also a host of behavioral issues that are anxiety based that can cause regressions. The key is to provide access and reinforcement for correct choices, and not create any sort of anxiety when things do go astray. Yep patience and clarity are key. I might try more reinforcement for bullseyes. Go outside more often and reinforce bigtime for good performances. I don't think you're making any obvious mistakes like walking your dog and then coming home after elimination or punishishing inappropriate elimination, just keep up the frequency of your outside visits and make sure the indoor option is clean ,because that can be an issue. Hey, elimiantion is rewarding in itself. It can be even more rewarding if we reward it. I still reinforce Molly periodically. I'm not sure whether our sucess is because of our training or whether she has a strong preference to ellimiante only outdoors. Who cares. One poop in the house in nine years, I don't care what the reason is. If I ever get a chance to talk to DR. Bonnie Beaver ,I'd like to ask her to clarify this statement ..."that many small breeds of dog are resistant to complete housetraining because of their juvenile qualities. Although guardians have bred these dogs to retain puppy like qualities in appearance, these qualities can also include a resistance to housetraining." But who am I to argue with a BS, DVM, MS, DPNAP, DACVB, DACAW


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## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

krandall said:


> Yeah, Kodi came from a breeder who did EVERYTHING possible to start the puppies right on potty training, I followed up on it pretty religiously, and He got TONS of exercise, was with me most of the time and went on outings at least daily. &#8230;I still would not have been comfortable leaving him loose in the house at that age&#8230; there is just too much that a puppy can get into, and you never know WHEN they are going to think of it&#8230;.
> 
> Like the time (when we were HOME in the house with him) Kodi decided to go after some dried grasses in an arrangement in our entry way. They's been there for MONTHS and he's paid no attention to them. THAT day, he decided to go after them, breathed them up his nose, and needed an emergency trip to the vet!
> 
> ...


Lesson from 25 years ago. We had a Caridigan Welsh Corgi named Kilroy. We didn't make a habit of crating him when we left the house. I came in from work one evening to a, more or less, 4x4 foot chewed hole in the vinyl flooring in our kitchen. Huh!!! What!!! Another time, we go out to dinner and come home to a dog (different dog) with a torn ACL. $1000.00 and many weeks later she's like new! You just never know! Better to crate or at least confine for their safety and your home's!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Thank you all so much for really helpful advice and major-ly needed support!! Another day, another chance. She's doing great in so many ways, and we'll get there in the end. Interesting, Dave, the stuff about neoteny; I hadn't thought about breeding for juvenile qualities being more significant than how the animal looks, but of course it could make perfect sense that it would breed for behavioural qualities, too....hmmm. I must run that past my ethologist husband! 
I do always go out with Cuba when she wees/poos. And praise her to the heavens, and click and treat, and do all the reinforcing things I can think of. I think she must know the difference between that and the silence that greets an indoors attempt. She never does anything on walks - she'd rather go in the garden first and then the walk is the reward that time.
Tycho, who is nearly 7, still on occasion pees on a bath mat upstairs; I've been told that dogs will mark territory that they don't usually frequent - a usually out-of-bounds bit of the house qualifies, but he shows a distinct preference for the shaggy, cottony bath mat...perhaps he thinks it's another Coton! The problem's gone away since I got Cuba and they both now think they live in a bungalow because I keep them both mostly in the gated-off conservatory. Onwards. Let's hope today is another accident-free one like yesterday! Every little triumph helps.


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## tra_po (Aug 14, 2013)

Lalla said:


> Thank you all so much for really helpful advice and major-ly needed support!! Another day, another chance. She's doing great in so many ways, and we'll get there in the end. Interesting, Dave, the stuff about neoteny; I hadn't thought about breeding for juvenile qualities being more significant than how the animal looks, but of course it could make perfect sense that it would breed for behavioural qualities, too....hmmm. I must run that past my ethologist husband!
> I do always go out with Cuba when she wees/poos. And praise her to the heavens, and click and treat, and do all the reinforcing things I can think of. I think she must know the difference between that and the silence that greets an indoors attempt. She never does anything on walks - she'd rather go in the garden first and then the walk is the reward that time.
> Tycho, who is nearly 7, still on occasion pees on a bath mat upstairs; I've been told that dogs will mark territory that they don't usually frequent - a usually out-of-bounds bit of the house qualifies, but he shows a distinct preference for the shaggy, cottony bath mat...perhaps he thinks it's another Coton! The problem's gone away since I got Cuba and they both now think they live in a bungalow because I keep them both mostly in the gated-off conservatory. Onwards. Let's hope today is another accident-free one like yesterday! Every little triumph helps.


I'm rooting for Cuba! (And you!)


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Thank you, Traci and Ludo!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> Interesting, Dave, the stuff about neoteny; I hadn't thought about breeding for juvenile qualities being more significant than how the animal looks, but of course it could make perfect sense that it would breed for behavioural qualities, too....hmmm. I must run that past my ethologist husband!


The thing I wonder about with that, though, is that I don't see Havanese as fitting this group, looks wise, other than size. Take their hair off, and they look like an elongated rat terrier! Not very neotenic&#8230; no large head or big "puppy dog eyes". So I'm not sure where that all starts and ends. The little terriers were bred for specific WORKING characteristics, not neoteny. Not sure where this breed fits in there.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Yes, I think that's right, Karen...I suppose an overall puppy-ish behaviour/personality might be thought to fit the bill, but as you so elegantly put it, under all the fluff we've got an elongated rat terrier here! There's certainly nothing baby faced and puppy-dog-eyed in the Havanese, thank goodness!!


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## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

Having lived with a terrier mix there is nothing about the Hav that is terrierish!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Pucks104 said:


> Having lived with a terrier mix there is nothing about the Hav that is terrierish!


Oh, I agree! I was just saying that in terms of STRUCTURE, Havanese dont seem to me to be an examle of neoteny.


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## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

krandall said:


> Oh, I agree! I was just saying that in terms of STRUCTURE, Havanese dont seem to me to be an examle of neoteny.


Ah, true.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Just talking to my biologist/ethologist husband who says that, in a sense, ALL dog breeds are neotenous in that they have been bred for characteristics different enough from wolves to qualify as 'baby-like', perhaps with the exception of german shepherds and the more obviously wolf-like looks/behaviours in some other breeds.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> Just talking to my biologist/ethologist husband who says that, in a sense, ALL dog breeds are neotenous in that they have been bred for characteristics different enough from wolves to qualify as 'baby-like', perhaps with the exception of german shepherds and the more obviously wolf-like looks/behaviours in some other breeds.


That makes sense, but it doesn't do much in terms of figuring out why many small dog breeds take longer to potty train than many large dog breeds. 

Of course, I only have a sample size of one, and only one breed. But what SEEMED to be the case with Kodi was that he learned very quickly to use the litter box in a fairly small area. (first the kitchen, then the kitchen and family room) He was completely reliable in these areas in a few weeks. He would also potty outside with no problem, from day one. (though, granted, he got an EXCELLENT start from his breeder) The problem was that it was VERY hard to see his signals when he was young. They were subtle, and gave you very little time to react.

What I seemed to sense was that he understood that these rooms were "den" territory, and we didn't eliminate there. But it seemed that every time we EXPANDED his in-house territory, we went through a period where he had to learn that THIS ALSO was someplace we didn't eliminate. (also part of our "den") "Accidents" were always as far from where we spent most of our time as he could get.

The last place that that he learned was "not OK" as a potty spot, was the bed room of our older son, who was away at college at the time. As a result, the room was rarely used by anyone, and if the door was not kept closed, he would occasionally disappear and use it as a potty spot. I did some serious training in that area, spending time with him there, feeding him by scattering kibble all over the rug, etc., and restricted access to that room when he wasn't closely supervised. Eventually, he internalized that even this room was part of our "den" and not a spot to eliminate.

My "theory" is that big dogs have an easier time recognizing that the whole space is "den", where for our little dogs, it is SO much space that it's harder for them to understand that concept. (which is why confinement often prevents accidents&#8230; they DO recognize that smaller space as "den")

So, that's my theory. I have no scientific backing for it&#8230; it just makes sense in my brain, based on what I've seen with my own dog, and what I've read here about other Havanese over the last several years take it for what it's worth!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

krandall said:


> Oh, I agree! I was just saying that in terms of STRUCTURE, Havanese dont seem to me to be an examle of neoteny.


yeah how about fluffy fur and pendulous ears ,.. lol


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> yeah how about fluffy fur and pendulous ears ,.. lol


I'll give you the pendulous ears&#8230; not sure what long hair has to do with neoteny&#8230; Dogs aren't born with long hair&#8230; any of them!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> &#8230;&#8230;.What I seemed to sense was that he understood that these rooms were "den" territory, and we didn't eliminate there. But it seemed that every time we EXPANDED his in-house territory, we went through a period where he had to learn that THIS ALSO was someplace we didn't eliminate. (also part of our "den") "Accidents" were always as far from where we spent most of our time as he could get.
> 
> The last place that that he learned was "not OK" as a potty spot, was the bed room of our older son, who was away at college at the time. As a result, the room was rarely used by anyone, and if the door was not kept closed, he would occasionally disappear and use it as a potty spot. I did some serious training in that area, spending time with him there, feeding him by scattering kibble all over the rug, etc., and restricted access to that room when he wasn't closely supervised. Eventually, he internalized that even this room was part of our "den" and not a spot to eliminate.
> 
> ...


I think that's incredibly interesting, Karen, and really plausible; I've had something so very similar with both my Cotons; Cuba, so far, hasn't had any run of the house to test whether or not she follows the same pattern but Tycho, and Pamba before him, both behaved in my mostly-absent step-daughter's room exactly as Kodi did in your son's. And the same in an upstairs bathroom that they never normally frequented. Instead of sensibly doing what you did to retrain, I simply gated off upstairs so obviate the problem. Neither Pamba more Tycho ever made any mistakes in my bedroom - they used to sleep there and it was their den, too - the signals were clear to them.
Just read your post to my husband, Richard; he thinks it's a very interesting idea, the 'den' hypothesis, and that teaching a dog what is and isn't a den would be crucial. I have Cuba's ex pen in our family room. Maybe she thinks that inside that ex pen is den and outside it is not? Perhaps the whole idea of keeping her in that ex pen at night (that's where she sleeps - Tycho has the run of the whole room) is confusing her?? She does play in the whole room when supervised, but it is there that we've had the 'accidents', when she just suddenly pees with no preliminary behaviour that I can detect&#8230;.so perhaps, as with your son's bedroom, I need to work on teaching her that the whole room is 'den' space?
The idea that big dogs might be better at acclimatising to big spaces seem perfectly possible to me - I wonder&#8230;..


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> I think that's incredibly interesting, Karen, and really plausible; I've had something so very similar with both my Cotons; Cuba, so far, hasn't had any run of the house to test whether or not she follows the same pattern but Tycho, and Pamba before him, both behaved in my mostly-absent step-daughter's room exactly as Kodi did in your son's. And the same in an upstairs bathroom that they never normally frequented. Instead of sensibly doing what you did to retrain, I simply gated off upstairs so obviate the problem. Neither Pamba more Tycho ever made any mistakes in my bedroom - they used to sleep there and it was their den, too - the signals were clear to them.
> Just read your post to my husband, Richard; he thinks it's a very interesting idea, the 'den' hypothesis, and that teaching a dog what is and isn't a den would be crucial. I have Cuba's ex pen in our family room. Maybe she thinks that inside that ex pen is den and outside it is not? Perhaps the whole idea of keeping her in that ex pen at night (that's where she sleeps - Tycho has the run of the whole room) is confusing her?? She does play in the whole room when supervised, but it is there that we've had the 'accidents', when she just suddenly pees with no preliminary behaviour that I can detect&#8230;.so perhaps, as with your son's bedroom, I need to work on teaching her that the whole room is 'den' space?
> The idea that big dogs might be better at acclimatising to big spaces seem perfectly possible to me - I wonder&#8230;..


I even saw a short return to this behavior with Kodi when he was well over 2 years old, and out addition was completed. He would NEVER have eliminated in the main part of the house at that point, but he did have one or two accidents in the new part, before he internalized them as part of his living space.

I don't remember who clued me into the "sprinkled kibble" trick, but it was someone here on the forum. Several of us have found that it is very useful. (and a place where raw is just not a good option!!! ) I would actually sprinkle kibble in the "problem area" when he didn't know I was doing it, then let him "discover" the kibble when he wandered into the room on his own. Since dogs who have been raised in a clean environment rarely will eliminate near their food, I am sure this helped get the message across that this was a "not potty" spot!

I think a LOT of "dog thinking" is binary&#8230; OK/not OK, mine/not mine&#8230; I'm not sure a lot of more complicated thought goes into many things. (CERTAINLY I don't think they have any conscious understand of "That toy belongs to Sammy", but Kodi DEFINITELY understands "Not for you!") I think that's why it often works better, when trying to teach them to "stop doing something" on cue it is often helpful to teach them "do it" on cue, and vice versa. (like "speak" and "quiet")

We spend a LOT of time working on teaching dogs where it's OK to potty, and to potty on command. I think it always takes longer to teach to generalized notion of "nowhere else". And we know punishment for "wrong" choices can lead to other, worse problems, so creativity in teaching this in a positive way is well worth the effort!

Again, this is all my opinion&#8230; haven't heard anyone address it exactly this way, but it also doesn't go AGAINST anything I've read or learned from a behavior standpoint.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

Gibbs did not have run of the house when this thread was posted, but does now.

We gave Gibbs run of the house once we felt he had "earned it". We felt he had "earned it" when he went approximately 2 months without an accident in our house. He had two accidents in that time frame with each one occurring at our parent's house (once at Dana's mom and once at my mom). 

Also, Gibbs had started to resist being put into his pen when we left. It was as if he believed that if we couldn't "herd" him into his pen, we wouldn't leave. We decided it was as good a time as any. We started by giving him access to his pen, family room and kitchen. We'd simply block off the steps and door to the dining room. This went on for about two weeks, and after that we opened the gates to the dining room and upstairs when we went out, but not at night (He slept downstairs).

After another two weeks with no accidents and no chewing, we removed all gates and allowed him to have run of house, even at night. We decided he could choose where he wanted to sleep. It's now at our feet in bed.

He's had two accidents since then, one pee and one poop. The poop came after he was being particularly restless in bed. I put him off the bed and fell asleep. I awoke in the morning to take him out, only to find a nicely formed poop in the middle of the family room. The pee came when we all woke up too early at 5:00am. I had to catch a flight and my wife woke up with me. We ignored him because we felt it was too early for him to have to pee, but he was awake, so I guess he felt it was time for his morning pee. Shame on Dana and I for not taking him out.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> I even saw a short return to this behavior with Kodi when he was well over 2 years old, and out addition was completed. He would NEVER have eliminated in the main part of the house at that point, but he did have one or two accidents in the new part, before he internalized them as part of his living space.
> 
> I don't remember who clued me into the "spindled kibble" trick, but it was someone here on the forum. Several of us have found that it is very useful. (and a place where raw is just not a good option!!! ) I would actually sprinkle kibble in the "problem area" when he didn't know I was doing it, then let him "discover" the kibble when he wandered into the room on his own. Since dogs who have been raised in a clean environment rarely will eliminate near their food, I am sure this helped get the message across that this was a "not potty" spot!
> 
> ...


Hugely helpful. And sensible, and wise, and all the things you always are, Karen. I'm off to sprinkle kibble!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

krandall said:


> I'll give you the pendulous ears&#8230; not sure what long hair has to do with neoteny&#8230; Dogs aren't born with long hair&#8230; any of them!


why sure Karen, what's more puppy like than fluffy Havs

"What dog characteristics are considered juvenile?

Juvenile characteristics in domestic dogs are such things as: soft fuzzy fur, round torsos, large heads and eyes, ears that hang down rather than stand erect (for the benefit of hunting prey) etc"


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> Hugely helpful. And sensible, and wise, and all the things you always are, Karen. I'm off to sprinkle kibble!


Sorry about my stupid spell check, and glad you fingered out the "spindled kibble" even _I_ had to re-read that one to figure out what I meant! :laugh:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> why sure Karen, what's more puppy like than fluffy Havs
> 
> "What dog characteristics are considered juvenile?
> 
> Juvenile characteristics in domestic dogs are such things as: soft fuzzy fur, round torsos, large heads and eyes, ears that hang down rather than stand erect (for the benefit of hunting prey) etc"


I think of round heads, large round eyes, short faces, round bodies&#8230; Although certainly not "wolf-like", there are enough dogs with both long (or longish) coats and pendant ears (Afghans, a lot of herding breeds&#8230; even mastiffs have pendant ears) that I don't know how much those count. And certainly not in relation to potty training, because there are large breeds that display all of those characteristics, (either individually or in concert) but do NOT seem to have difficulty in terms of potty training.

If you include hair length and pendant ears in neoteny, then you are basically including MANY dog breeds, of all sizes. In which case, I'd think it would be hard to draw a correlation to potty training.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

If I ever get a chance to talk to DR. Bonnie Beaver said:


> Well I asked Dr. Beaver about this , and here's her reply ...."Miniaturization of dogs enhances the retention of juvenile characteristics - i.e. puppy traits. These include things like tendency to retain deciduous teeth, poor cranial muscle development, domed skull shape often with non-closure of cranial bones (open fontanels), excessive vocalization, and poor learning. It is the poor learning that results in problems with housetraining (as can happen with hydrocephalus concurrent to open fontanels). Housetraining is not a trait of very young animals"


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Well, I suppose technically neoteny means looking like a juvenile version of the adult - an axolotl is a neotenic salamander; so anything that might resemble more a wolf cub than an adult wolf would qualify...


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> Sorry about my stupid spell check, and glad you fingered out the "spindled kibble" even _I_ had to re-read that one to figure out what I meant! :laugh:


And there was I fingering I'd better spindle that kibble&#8230;!!!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> Well I asked Dr. Beaver about this , and here's her reply ...."Miniaturization of dogs enhances the retention of juvenile characteristics - i.e. puppy traits. These include things like tendency to retain deciduous teeth, poor cranial muscle development, domed skull shape often with non-closure of cranial bones (open fontanels), excessive vocalization, and poor learning. It is the poor learning that results in problems with housetraining (as can happen with hydrocephalus concurrent to open fontanels). Housetraining is not a trait of very young animals"


That might make sense if 'poor learning' was the case in any other area, but these are smart dogs, and so are many other small breeds; Cuba is super-quick at learning other things, such as picking up almost immediately what I am after when shaping, and that's what makes it harder to understand the slowness with the house training.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> Well I asked Dr. Beaver about this , and here's her reply ...."Miniaturization of dogs enhances the retention of juvenile characteristics - i.e. puppy traits. These include things like tendency to retain deciduous teeth, poor cranial muscle development, domed skull shape often with non-closure of cranial bones (open fontanels), excessive vocalization, and poor learning. It is the poor learning that results in problems with housetraining (as can happen with hydrocephalus concurrent to open fontanels). Housetraining is not a trait of very young animals"


This still doesn't make much sense to me in terms of Havanese&#8230; They are NOT poor learners&#8230; they tend to be very bright. The ones I know also do less vocalizing that a lot of other breeds I know, large AND small.

While some lines of Havanese do tend to retain deciduous teeth, (some also DEVELOP them very late) and I have no idea about the "poor cranial muscle development" (not sure how that is evidenced) Havanese CERTAINLY shouldn't have a domed skull shape, and I've never heard of open fontanels being an issue in the breed.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> This still doesn't make much sense to me in terms of Havanese&#8230; They are NOT poor learners&#8230; they tend to be very bright. The ones I know also do less vocalizing that a lot of other breeds I know, large AND small.
> 
> While some lines of Havanese do tend to retain deciduous teeth, (some also DEVELOP them very late) and I have no idea about the "poor cranial muscle development" (not sure how that is evidenced) Havanese CERTAINLY shouldn't have a domed skull shape, and I've never heard of open fontanels being an issue in the breed.


Dr Beaver's going to wish she'd never taken on the combined forces of the Havanese Forum!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> Dr Beaver's going to wish she'd never taken on the combined forces of the Havanese Forum!!!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

krandall said:


> This still doesn't make much sense to me in terms of Havanese&#8230; They are NOT poor learners&#8230; they tend to be very bright. The ones I know also do less vocalizing that a lot of other breeds I know, large AND small.
> 
> While some lines of Havanese do tend to retain deciduous teeth, (some also DEVELOP them very late) and I have no idea about the "poor cranial muscle development" (not sure how that is evidenced) Havanese CERTAINLY shouldn't have a domed skull shape, and I've never heard of open fontanels being an issue in the breed.


she's not talking about Havanese.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> she's not talking about Havanese.


We're just SO defensive about our precious babies, Dave, and can't imagine that anyone would want to talk about any OTHER breed!!! The very thought!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> she's not talking about Havanese.


OK, now I'm confused. I thought you put this forth as a possible explanation on why Havanese (among other small breeds) were often difficult to potty train. (or at least it taking longer than it does for many large breed puppies)


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> OK, now I'm confused. I thought you put this forth as a possible explanation on why Havanese (among other small breeds) were often difficult to potty train. (or at least it taking longer than it does for many large breed puppies)


I'm not chickening out (baby-chicking-out?) but it's nearly eleven o'clock at night in the UK so I'm off to bed and will leave you guys to sort it out!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> I'm not chickening out (baby-chicking-out?) but it's nearly eleven o'clock at night in the UK so I'm off to bed and will leave you guys to sort it out!


Ha! Good night, sleep tight! See you in the morning!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

krandall said:


> OK, now I'm confused. I thought you put this forth as a possible explanation on why Havanese (among other small breeds) were often difficult to potty train. (or at least it taking longer than it does for many large breed puppies)


I gave her , her quote to comment on. Nothing specific about Havanese but I'd imagine you could put them in this category, even if we don't agree.


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