# help with new 10mo; shy



## HavaneseinAZ (Dec 9, 2011)

We just brought home an almost 10mo male Havanese 2 days ago. He is very sweet, but very quiet and shy. I suspect the pup was socialized with the other dogs, but not much with people. When we picked him up he was running and alert, but seemed more attached to the dogs than the breeder (wouldn't "come" to her when she called but would follow her larger dog).

We've been mainly leaving him alone to adjust. He's just starting to have any interest exploring...or walking much. He doesn't act really scared (no shaking, no growling or nipping, no accidents in the house, doesn't try to move away from us, is happy to sit near us, be pet), but seems really submissive. He's wary, but will eat chicken bits from our hands and I use that to get him to walk inside after being out (when he's done going potty, he comes with paws on the back door, but will tend to step back when we open it). In the evening I'll put him in my lap or next to us and he relaxes and seems content. But otherwise, he's not walking around much when he's indoors. I have his crate in an exercise pen in the living room. He'll come out of his crate to lay on the carpet, but that's about it.

Any experience with bringing a shy, older pup home? Any advice? I appreciate the stress and change he's experiencing, but will he warm up eventually? We have kids, so I am hoping for a dog that will eventually be more playful. The kids are being very good and patient, leaving him alone.  I just don't know if this is "normal" or an indicator we'll have trouble down the line.

Advice and encouragement appreciated!


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

It takes more than two days for a pup (especially an older one) to adjust to his new surroundings. Milo was 5 1/2 months old when I got him and he was very remote, preferring to just lie down on his own, or occasionally follow me around. Think about it from his point of view. He's been taken to a foreign land, with strangers speaking a foreign language. Give him a little while and you just might long for the days when he lay around quietly. JK, but you should see a marked difference in him as he feels more at home.

Try not to panic. What you're describing sounds perfectly normal.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

To add to what Geri said, it's very good that he's willing to take goodies from you. A REALLY stressed dog won't eat. Give him some time, and I'm sure he'll settle in and interact with you more!


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Yes, I agree, a few days isn't enough for any of you to adjust to the changes. I think relationships and bonds between dogs and people don't happen overnight, they do take awhile to build trust and habit, and he seems to be showing good signs of trusting you by taking treats. 10 months old is a bit of a tween stage for Havs, so challenging enough in themselves without major adjustments like being rehomed 

:welcome: to the forum!
Kara


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## DonnaC (Jul 31, 2011)

One of the many great things about Havs is that they are basically bred to play. Unless something is very wrong with him -- and it doesn't sound that way -- he will warm up and play. He'll always have his own personality, and that may be more cautious than other dogs, but I can't imagine that he won't play with folks (and kids) he trusts.


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## Maxmom (Jul 22, 2008)

I adopted Cooper when he was about a year old. He was extremely shy. We did just like you are doing. We gave him his space and allowed him to approach us in his own time. I sat or laid on the floor and didn't look at him. He would come up and sniff my hair and dash off. We've had him two years now. He still startles easily and shies away at fast movements. We have people in our house OFTEN. He mostly stays in the background, never letting me out of his sight, but he has warmed up tremendously for some women friends. However, when we are alone, he is perfectly comfortable. He plops himself in my lap on top of computers, books, magazines, no matter what. lol

I'm so glad He has someone patient and loving like you. He will reward you for years for your kindness.


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## Tessa's Mommy (May 20, 2011)

We adopted Tessa when she was 4 1/2 months old. Originally, because of her beautiful colouring, the breeder wanted us to let her have one litter, but she was so shy, the breeder decided not to because she felt she didn't want that personality trait in her line. We have a 5 1/2 year old Hav also, so I think that helped Tessa settle in our house more quickly. 

However, Tessa is still very shy with almost everyone expect my husband and I and my sister and her husband, two people she sees very frequently. She is very loving and playful with us, but will hide when anyone new comes to the house. I think just show some patience and you will have to realize that your pup may always be shy with people he doesn't know and you will have to accept his shyness. We knew when we brought Tessa home that this would be an ongoing thing with her, the breeder warned us about it, but she is a great pup, loves to play with us and is very affectionate so her shyness with others isn't really an issue for us.

Good luck and just enjoy your little guy.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

HavaneseinAZ said:


> We just brought home an almost 10mo male Havanese 2 days ago. He is very sweet, but very quiet and shy. I suspect the pup was socialized with the other dogs, but not much with people. When we picked him up he was running and alert, but seemed more attached to the dogs than the breeder (wouldn't "come" to her when she called but would follow her larger dog).
> 
> We've been mainly leaving him alone to adjust. He's just starting to have any interest exploring...or walking much. He doesn't act really scared (no shaking, no growling or nipping, no accidents in the house, doesn't try to move away from us, is happy to sit near us, be pet), but seems really submissive. He's wary, but will eat chicken bits from our hands and I use that to get him to walk inside after being out (when he's done going potty, he comes with paws on the back door, but will tend to step back when we open it). In the evening I'll put him in my lap or next to us and he relaxes and seems content. But otherwise, he's not walking around much when he's indoors. I have his crate in an exercise pen in the living room. He'll come out of his crate to lay on the carpet, but that's about it.
> 
> ...


If you think of all the questions you are having about your puppy, just turn it around and think of all the questions he must be having about you!
Seriously, his little world has changed drastically and he really is wondering about his new home, the people and all the changes in his little life...put yourself in his paws and try to imagine what he must be thinking....if you do this, I think you will see it will take a while for both of you to adjust! It will be fun, just be patient.


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## Becky Chittenden (Feb 4, 2009)

I think he sounds normal. I got my Pip the weekend he was returned to his breeder. When he got to our house, the third in a matter of days, he just barked at the other dogs. He adjusted very quickly.


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## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

I think he sounds as if he is doing very well.As others have said it is very early days,and it is great that he is taking treats from you,also it is good just to lie on the floor and ignore him, letting him come to you in his own time.Gently does it!Once he has adjusted to his new home, have calm friends come over,who also just ignore him,gradually he will see that they are not a threat to him,and if he approaches them,let them offer him a titbit.One of our Havs tends to keep a low profile when friends are around,it's no bad thing,as not everyone is a dog lover!


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## HavaneseinAZ (Dec 9, 2011)

Thanks everyone, sooo much! You really made me feel better! I might have been fine if dh hadn't kept questioning if it was normal and most info I find in books is about tiny puppies who apparently walk right in on leads. :suspicious:

I think we're making great progress. Yesterday, he seemed laid down near me and seemed to be giving "pet me" eyes, so I sat down on the floor perpendicular to him a few feet away. Next time I looked he'd moved half the distance closer and was facing me all stretched out with his chin on the ground. A couple minutes later he'd crawled close enough that I could pet him. After about 15min of petting he was pressed against me so I lifted his front paws into my lap. Slowly he just sort of melted until the he fell sideways into my lap. {et him all over for another 30 minutes until he seemed to tense a bit, so I put my hands to my side and he slowly got up and returned to his crate in his ex-pen. :whoo:

After the kids went to sleep, we opened up his ex-pen. It cracked me up because he kept stalking me. I'd look as I passed his area and he'd be in his crate. I'd walk into the kitchen and hear him, look and there he was peeking at me around a corner. When he'd been spotted, he'd trot back to his crate and it would start again. At bedtime, I put him in his crate in our bedroom, then had to run downstairs to get something. Heard this commotion -- dh says the dog howled (first peep we've heard out of him) and then went nuts trying to take his crate apart.  When I walked back in he was sitting but tense, so I took my dirty shirt and dropped it next to his crate. Darn if he didn't lay down and stick his nose thru the wire crate to bury it in the shirt and go to sleep! I crawled into bed and he didn't make another peep all night. So I think he's accepting me as part of his new pack. He lets dh and the kids pet him, so I don't think it'll be too long before he "spreads the love". I wasn't so sure of that yesterday, so we've come far!

Thanks again for all the advice and encouragement. I think he's going to be quite the character!


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I'm so happy to hear about the progress. I remember when I first had Milo, I felt so sad because he was nothing like the puppies/dogs on the forum. Nothing about him seemed warm and fuzzy, or particularly loving. As time went by, he was my little lover man. 

You're in for a treat as the petals of this rose start to unfurl. I can't wait to hear more.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

awwww, sounds like he is making great progress!!! just give him some time and continue being patient!!


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## Becky Chittenden (Feb 4, 2009)

It sounds like he is coming around. Great!!!


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## HavaneseinAZ (Dec 9, 2011)

Thanks again. His cleverness (and mischievousness) is starting to come through more. He holds his tail low, but has a good prance in his step and is exploring a lot (including displaying a talent for finding any vulnerabilities in how his ex-pen is set up. ound:

One question: he's 10mo and we plan to get him neutered...and advice on when? I feel like I should let him have some time to get settled, but maybe that makes it worse? So far he still squats to pee and hasn't marked (or had any accidents) at all the house. Any thoughts/experiences?

Also, his ears are fairly dirty (brown gunk). I've cleaned them with quips and the special rinse stuff (he's very tolerant). I examined the crud under the microscope and didn't see any mites or eggs, and his eardrums look fine (have a human otoscope). I'm thinking if the vet wants to clean them I may opt it wait until the neutering so he doesn't have to be sedated twice. Reasonably reasonable?

Last question: he doesn't like to be brushed, but obviously he needs it daily. Any advice to ease him into it before he turns into one big mat? At least he's sporting a puppy cut at the moment.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I would wait a little while before the neutering, to give him time to feel safe and secure. I waited a long time with Milo, not planned that way. 

I would try to groom him a little every day. I find it easiest when they're very tired, especially to work on their feet, so I groom when we're all relaxing and the television is on. You'll find your own way as you see what works in your situation. I can't imagine the vet would have to sedate him to clean out his ears, so I'd have that checked.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Sounds like you are doing a great job!


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## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

I would hold off on the neutering for at least a couple of months,so that he is totally used to you and the family,and is feeling happy and relaxed.Keep an eye on the ears,if they are not smelly then there is probably no worries, but if you detect a nasty odour,then I should take him to the vet for a check up,Well,what can I say about the grooming/brushing?Our boy Dizzie hates being brushed with a passion and hides when ever he sees a brush,and keeps a very low profile whilst I brush his half sister Nellie,who actually enjoys being brushed.So with Dizzie I very rarely brush him and we have very little problems with matts as he goes once every 6 weeks to the groomers for a wash and brush up and every now and again a trim,so I am not the baddy frightening him with the nasty brush and comb.


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## kawboy (Dec 5, 2007)

We got an 18 month old Keeshond from the Kees rescue foundation. He was quite reserved for a few days but after 2 weeks he acted like he lived with us since birth. Just give him a little time and I'm sure it will be fine.


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## HavaneseinAZ (Dec 9, 2011)

Sasha's been home over a week now and is still slowly warming up. When I reach out to pick him up he rolls on his back and presents his belly for rubbing. To eat his dinner, he ran into the kitchen, got a few pieces, then brought them out into the living room where we all were to eat. Repeated many times, so I think he wants to be with his "pack". But he's still pretty shy. I think he'll get there. 

I reread this thread just about every day and it helps me appreciate how far we've come and remain patient. 

Thanks again!


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## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

Many of the Havs on here start of by wanting to have their owner,or family close by whilst they eat,I always use to have to stay close by Dizzie when he ate,I can't remember how long that phase lasted,certainly didn't need to do it with Nellie she was a little gut bucket!And don't have to do it now!


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## HavaneseinAZ (Dec 9, 2011)

*2 week update*

We brought the dog home 2 weeks ago today. I'm becoming really concerned that he is just too timid and fearful. We bought an older dog from a breeder because we wanted: (1) to forgo house training, and (2) let a "pro" socialize and do initial training of our dog. He is well house trained (a big deal in a 10mo Havanese as I understand), but as near as I can tell is completely unsocialized with people. I guess the warning sign was there when he responded to the lead dog rather than the breeder. :frusty:

Yes, he's doing better, but after 2 weeks I still can't approach him. Walking on a leash or obedience training aren't even imaginable at this point. He won't come near us unless we have food in our hands. He WILL eat food from our hands and he does roll over for a belly run when he first wakes un in the morning. He comes in from outside without hesitation. With the exception of a bout of playfulness in the mornings, he spends all day sleeping behind the Christmas tree.

My kids can't play with him or pet him. He is completely terrified of the brush -- as soon as it touches him lightly, he tries to climb up me and hug my neck. Apparently he's hardly ever been brushed! So there's one fear I have to fix...

He's accepting us as him pack, but pack-at-a-distance. He's a very passive dog, but a few nights ago, I went to put the kids to sleep and he freaked out (I guess *I* am his main pack), jumped the fence to get up the stairs and when dh (foolishly) put his hand in the dogs path to stop him, the dog bit dh (broke the skin). After 2 weeks he still always carries his tail down, with just the tip curled upwards. It seems like he's still improving, but the improvement is slowing down.

There are moments we see the cute, playful puppy, but how long until the kids can play a game of chase or fetch or just be able to pet the dog? This just seems like more than normal adjustment, and I don't know if I have the energy or expertise to rehabilitate a truly timid/fearful dog. I'm considering returning him to the breeder. Maybe take my chances with a younger pup that hasn't been screwed up yet and deal with the house training.

I plan to see who this next week goes, but I'm feeling pretty discouraged. Obviously we're all pretty attached to this pup, but this is a long term (15+ year) commitment and we want to be able to take this dog with us. I don't want just another responsibility to feed and clean poop. I'm not running a shelter -- I have a family. The kids have been sooooo good and patient, and they so want a dog they can play with. I planned on some training, but I don't want to end up paying for ongoing doggy rehabilitation instead of my kids' piano lessons. Every pet I've ever had was a rescue animal except this one, and he seems the most emotionally damaged of all. Am I expecting too much? Am I just being impatient? Or is he really going to become a more playful, outgoing dog, or is he likely to always be shy?

Thanks for letting me vent. Opinions welcome.


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## DonnaC (Jul 31, 2011)

I don't think you need to despair quite yet. Our Baxter was probably not as shy as Sasha, but, in many ways, they sound alike. When I chose him, he was lying apart from the other pups. He hides when we have guests, and there are still folks at home he prefers over others. He will often take himself to his crate and just rest there. He asks to be picked up, but then doesn't quite want to cuddle. He does not usually sit on laps. 

But, we see lots of changes all the time. He HATES being brushed. But, just in the past week or so (I've had him since June), he has started lying on my lap and sleeping while I brush him (unless we're combing mats; then, he'll growl and even nip at me and the comb). He lay on my lap for a few minutes the other night. He loves to play. And, I can tell from the way he looks at me and follows me around that, even though he's shy and timid, he loves me best -- so I'm kinda stuck with him 

Have you tried training? Baxter was not cuddly, but he really loved having tasks. He learned the household routine right away, and he's quite the tyrant about making sure we stick to it every day. And, he loves to sit for 10 minutes or so and do "sit" and "watch me" and "dance" or whatever we're working on. That's an interaction that doesn't require intimacy and involves treats! 

I hate to think of him having to leave you -- he seems to have bonded with you. Email me privately if you are considering that!


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## StarrLhasa (Jun 6, 2010)

Have you talked to the breeder in the last two weeks about your concerns, and, if so, what was the breeder's reponse to your questions?

Was Sasha returned to the breeder from a prior home? Or, was he a show prospect that did not work out?

My two Lhasas were show prospects. They lived in the house until the breeder decided that they would not work out for that purpose [each for a different reason]; after that they probably spent most of their time in the kennel out back with other dogs,

I was lucky to adopt my boy at 13 months and my girl at 2 1/2years of age, but the boy was not socialized much to other people. He was very happy to be close to my DH and me, but not to anyone else much. Lhasas have a very different temperament from Havs, so I am not trying to compare them.

If the breeder is not helpful, you may want to have Sasha evaluated by a trainer. Dave could probably point you to someone in your area.


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## Becky Chittenden (Feb 4, 2009)

I think he sounds like he's beginning to adjust, give him time. It takes some longer than others, let him know he is loved


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## HavaneseinAZ (Dec 9, 2011)

DonnaC said:


> I don't think you need to despair quite yet. Our Baxter was probably not as shy as Sasha, but, in many ways, they sound alike. When I chose him, he was lying apart from the other pups. He hides when we have guests, and there are still folks at home he prefers over others. He will often take himself to his crate and just rest there. He asks to be picked up, but then doesn't quite want to cuddle. He does not usually sit on laps.
> 
> But, we see lots of changes all the time. He HATES being brushed. But, just in the past week or so (I've had him since June), he has started lying on my lap and sleeping while I brush him (unless we're combing mats; then, he'll growl and even nip at me and the comb). He lay on my lap for a few minutes the other night. He loves to play. And, I can tell from the way he looks at me and follows me around that, even though he's shy and timid, he loves me best -- so I'm kinda stuck with him
> 
> ...


See this is actually kind of depressing to me. It's not ok with me to have a dog that 6mo from now won't sit in my lap or nip or whatever. I can't do training because that would require the dog to let me touch him or move my hand with a treat in it without him running off. The only time he wants to be touched is he offers his belly when I open his crate in the morning and enjoys the rub, but after that a touch (he sees coming) may well send him running.

What really concerns me is that he's actually gotten a bit worse over the last 3-4 days. There was slow steady improvement for the first 10 days, then he stopped being interested in where we were, he stopped investigating and just stays under the Christmas tree except for maybe three 5min breaks during the day (mainly to play with a toy by himself or seek food) and potty trips outside. It's like now that he's more comfortable in our home, he's content. He's not interested in participating with his new pack, or being in the room with us. Where a week ago he went nuts to get upstairs where I was and his crate in our room, now he doesn't want to go up to his crate in our room, he'd rather stay under the Christmas tree. If nothing else, what's going to happen when the tree goes away next week? (and it's a fake tree, btw)

We had very specific reasons for choosing this breed and getting a dog now, and I was really clear about that with the breeder. If I was looking for a companion or a relationship dog for ME, I would be willing to work with him. But the whole point was to get a dog that could be happy-go-lucky, play with the kids, sit against dd on the couch while she reads. Someone they can play fetch with and teach tricks (or at least try).

I haven't talked to the breeder yet because, to be honest, I'm pretty mad. When she described him as "sweet" and "above the fray" I specifically pressed her on whether he might be too sensitive to handle the travel and kids. "Oh no," she said, and I assume she believed that (or wanted to). The part about him removing himself from the other pups when they got boisterous is starting to sound like his detachment from us. I'm wondering if he started with a timid and meek personality and a lack of socialization has led to this.

It makes me feel sick to think of returning him for a different (likely younger) pup. I am attached and I know he is to me. But I already am responsible for three sensitive psyches and their emotional well-being -- my kids. I'm willing to meet the physical and emotional needs of a dog *as long as* that dog is meeting the needs of the family. I don't have the luxury to do it otherwise.

My dh works with a dog trainer who works with show dogs. I think I'll see if he can come over and offer an opinion.


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## DonnaC (Jul 31, 2011)

I'm sorry. That all sounds very frustrating, and I know it has to be a disappointment. I hope the trainer has some ideas for you.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

HavaneseinAZ said:


> See this is actually kind of depressing to me. It's not ok with me to have a dog that 6mo from now won't sit in my lap or nip or whatever. I can't do training because that would require the dog to let me touch him or move my hand with a treat in it without him running off. The only time he wants to be touched is he offers his belly when I open his crate in the morning and enjoys the rub, but after that a touch (he sees coming) may well send him running.
> 
> What really concerns me is that he's actually gotten a bit worse over the last 3-4 days. There was slow steady improvement for the first 10 days, then he stopped being interested in where we were, he stopped investigating and just stays under the Christmas tree except for maybe three 5min breaks during the day (mainly to play with a toy by himself or seek food) and potty trips outside. It's like now that he's more comfortable in our home, he's content. He's not interested in participating with his new pack, or being in the room with us. Where a week ago he went nuts to get upstairs where I was and his crate in our room, now he doesn't want to go up to his crate in our room, he'd rather stay under the Christmas tree. If nothing else, what's going to happen when the tree goes away next week? (and it's a fake tree, btw)
> 
> ...


I have to say I detect a difference in your attitude toward the dog and I don't think any amount of encouragement from others is going to help. I agree you need to seek out professional help with this, I don't believe anyone can help who does not actually see the dog and the relationship he has with you.
Everyone means well, but again your posts make me believe this is too serious for unprofessionals. 
A dog like this might work fine in a different household but does not seem to work for you and your family. 
Keep us posted, everyone is very interested in the results. JMHO


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## Lizzie'sMom (Oct 13, 2010)

I don't have any suggestions and hope the trainer co-worker can help. Just to let you know that Lizzie is 20 months old and we have had her since 13 weeks and she is not a lap dog. She won't sit next to us either. She is always by me, but not on the lap.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

It took Milo a lot longer than two weeks to be my dog in any way. He always preferred to be off on his own, sleeping somewhere near the crate. I can't even tell you when it changed, but it definitely took time. 

It sounds to me like you've made up your mind, even though what you're saying for the most part sounds encouraging.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Sorry I missed this thread. All I can say is that this dog needs patience. Yes , I for one will always recommend a trainer to help ,but it's going to come down to you and your family . Some dogs with a poor start never fully reach their potential. And many therefore do not meet our expectations. I guess it depends on how much less than ideal you are willing to work for.


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## HavaneseinAZ (Dec 9, 2011)

FWIW, I haven't 'made up my mind'. My feelings are very complex. Sometimes we are looking for encouragement, sometimes to vent, and sometimes plain talk. In my case, I needed to vent and honest all-options-open (including returning him to the breeder) thoughts and advice. It's easy to feel obligated to "make things work, no matter what" and I just want to make sure we make the right decision for both my family and the dog. 

We'll talk to the trainer and see how the weekend goes. Fortunately, Christmas is pretty low-key here, so shouldn't be particularly stressful for the dog.


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## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

In the morning when he likes to have his tummy rubbed try picking him up and just carry him around the house cuddling him for a few minutes.When you have done this for 2 or 3 days have a go at picking him up and then handing him over to another family member for a little cuddle, you could also offer him a treat at these times.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I won't tell you what to do. You have to make that decision based on what you can handle and your family's needs. I have a shy boy I got as a puppy. It has taken years to break him of his shyness. I just want to point out one thing. Whether you get an older dog or a puppy, if they weren't properly socialized, they can be fearful. You can get a great older dog, as long as they were truly socialized and raised well. You can also get an 8 week old puppy that was never socialized and it could have issues. I believe the time to socialize is before 8 weeks. Just keep this in mind if you decide to get another pup. I wish you luck. I know what you are going through because I wanted to give my shy boy back many times!!! I am so glad I didn't because now at 6 years old, he is so friendly, loving and the most affectionate one of my dogs. He is still a little shy with strangers, but warms up pretty fast.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

lfung5 said:


> I won't tell you what to do. You have to make that decision based on what you can handle and your family's needs. I have a shy boy I got as a puppy. It has taken years to break him of his shyness. I just want to point out one thing. Whether you get an older dog or a puppy, if they weren't properly socialized, they can be fearful. You can get a great older dog, as long as they were truly socialized and raised well. You can also get an 8 week old puppy that was never socialized and it could have issues. I believe the time to socialize is before 8 weeks. Just keep this in mind if you decide to get another pup. I wish you luck. I know what you are going through because I wanted to give my shy boy back many times!!! I am so glad I didn't because now at 6 years old, he is so friendly, loving and the most affectionate one of my dogs. He is still a little shy with strangers, but warms up pretty fast.


Well said Linda.


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## DonnaC (Jul 31, 2011)

Another thing I've noticed with Baxter is that his "signals" are not as obvious as my Dachshund's are -- she is perhaps excessively well-adjusted.  I'm always having to tell other people in the family what he is trying to communicate. For example, just this morning, my husband and I both walked out with him, because we're both home. Baxter put his feet on my husband's legs and looked up at him. My husband said, "he always does this when I take him out." So, I was able to tell him that when he does that, he wants to be picked up. When I take Baxter out, I pick him up and hug him before sending him off to do his business (I told you -- this guy likes his routines). He's pretty awkward and shy when you pick him up, but he wants it and asks for it.

So, maybe one thing a trainer could help with is trying to figure out if you are missing Sasha's "tells." If they are under-socialized, they may just communicate in a different way.


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## Scrappy (Sep 16, 2010)

*How are things going?*

I don't have any advice but I'm wondering if anything has changed over the past week or so? I can tell you we adopted a rescue when he was about a year old. I knew nothing and still know very little about dogs but know now that Scrappy's real personality took many months to come out. He bonded to my daughter almost immediately but that was because she carried him around constantly for the first two days and basically didn't let his feet touch the floor. He growled at my other teenagers for weeks. He didn't bark for at least a month. His tail stayed down most of the time for weeks. In hindsight I can see how stressed, timid and fearful he was.

Now it is totally different (although we still have problems with nipping that we WILL work through and he can still be timid at times). The first time we watched Scrappy tear around the lawn doing the RLH thing was amazing. His tail is up most of the time now. He is playful and so much fun. He is so loving and remembers visitors who come back after many months. He wakes up each day tail wagging and literally ready to play with a toy in his mouth. As a very wise poster said though, it's up to you to decide what's best for your family. This is just the way it went with our dog. I hope things work out for you on way or the other.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

Yes, I have been wondering how things are going too..let us have an update when you get a minute...Happy New Year


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## HavaneseinAZ (Dec 9, 2011)

UPDATE:

Thank you to all the thoughts and suggestions. Thought you might like an update.

Well, the trainer's evaluation was pretty grim: fearful, timid, fear imprinted, fear biter, and appears totally unsocialized to people (reminded him of a study of dogs raised "wild"). Not unfixable, but requires a lot of work and might never be a god pet for a family (he was esp concerned of a fear bite of a child).

Talked with the breeder -- I'm not interested in another unsocialized animal, so if I switched it would be for a young puppy. But, basically I've lost faith in her, expected more than a "rescue dog" and really don't want to do the infant puppy right now. I also can't help but think that if the breeder didn't socialize or bond with the dog in the 10mo she had him, it's unlikely she'd be able to do it NOW. It would be disastrous to sell him to another family with kids and go thru the same thing, but now with more doggie baggage.

Mulled things over the holidays, and three major changes occurred. First, I got over feeling miffed that Sasha wasn't properly socialized. It just is. Lesson learned. Second, talking about my pup woes I discovered a family member would be the perfect home for Sasha and would love to have him (recent widow, who really wanted a small dog but her spouse forbid it). Finally, the last week Sasha has really bonded with me. I found he loves treats and belly rubs, so I spend an hour or so 3x a day working with him on trust, playing with toys and petting him. He's still scared of dh, but willing to be out some in the morning with the kids. He doesn't seem at all threatened by my youngest (similar size and drops lots of food?), which makes me feel it's safer. He still hides for hours if a neighbor comes to the door.

The result is I'm going to keep him. I still have serious doubts whether he will every be confident enough to be a good family pet, but I'm confident he will come around at least for a smaller, quieter household. For now he's "my dog" and I am going to work to socialize him. He will see this family member frequently, so if we end up giving him to her, it will be a gentle transition. By that time, the kids would be ready for a little puppy, having learned a lot about dog care from Sasha, and maybe Sasha can help with housebreaking a puppy (that is one thing he's got down pat). So, either way he'll have a good home, the kids will get their "puppy experience" on our timeline, and a couple years from now we'll either have one or two Havanese, depending on how far along Sasha can come this year.


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## DonnaC (Jul 31, 2011)

Wow--I'm so impressed with the thoughtful way you handled this! Good for Sasha to have someone care about him so much!


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## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

This sounds a very well thought out plan.Good for you,hope thing continue to improve.Sasha is a lucky little Hav to have come into your house hold.He is on to a win win situation!


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## Tessa's Mommy (May 20, 2011)

It is such a pleasure to read how you have thought through this problem and came to good solution for all. I am relieved that you decided not to return your pup to this so-called breeder. No matter what you eventually decide, I think this puppy will end being much better off away from this breeder.

Best of luck to you and to Sasha. Please let us know how things are going.


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## Judy -- Toby & Jaime's mo (Apr 21, 2007)

*Been there*

Dear HavaneseinAZ

Many of the things you are experiencing (but not as bad) are things we dealt with two adult puppymill rescues (one 18 months when she got out, and the other twoish when got out). Totally and completely unsocialized, never experienced normal dog behaviors -- walking on leash, walking on grass, being exposed to anything in a house, never in a car and were not treated well and did not have enough to eat. You feel like they do not like -- they look sad and go around with their tails down. Both of them arrived (separately) after being in foster homes for three or four months. Being with normal dogs helps enormously and they tend to pattern that behavior.

Dori fear bit my husband two times when I was not home in the first few months -- never had any biting issues with anyone else. Both dogs are clearly most bonded with me (were afraid of men when they arrived). Any time Tom has food for Dori no fear issues -- will he ever be her person -- not likely (unless I should die and he is all she has -- LOL). Chloe will jump on the couch or with my husband and loves to be petted.

I worked very hard with them and read anything I could about working with puppymill or shy dogs. There was a really good book I got from the library on working with shy dogs (try googling books on shy dogs).

I accept them for what they are, they are now both affectionate (but Chloe is the really cuddle bunny) and easy dogs to live with. They are nothing like they were when they arrived -- they are very happy.

I would try another trainer if the one you contacted does not have a positive attitude (for you to assess if she has a positive and gentle manner). The first trainer I tried was not the right fit, but the second (after careful research) was GREAT. Dori passed her Canine Good Citizen Test and Therapy Dog test (but was rejected by the national organization because she had bitten someone -- I felt they did not fully consider the circumstances). Later my father was in a nursing home and the dogs went with me a lot and they did great.

Having a good outcome out of a hard situation can be truly rewarding, but I definitely understand you have to consider the entire family dynamics. In our case, we were emptynesters but they do see our grandchildren. Like I would with any dog who was not used to living with little children I keep my eye on them all the time.

I applaud you that are committed to this dog that was produced by a breeder that definitely did not do a good job -- may have even been a puppy miller. Any commercial breeder situation (lots of dogs/puppies) even if they treat the dogs well are not going to create socialized dogs. Puppies/dogs need lots of socializing to be "social" -- especially the "velcro" breeds.

The picture below includes our two rescues (the black and white partis) with the grand dame of this Forum (Jaime) -- to my knowledge she is the oldest Havanese with a mom or dad posting on the Forum -- she will be 17 in the spring.

The best of luck to you and look forward to hearing progress reports.


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## Judy -- Toby & Jaime's mo (Apr 21, 2007)

*Looked up shy dog books*

Here is a link to some shy dog books

http://www.amazon.com/Help-Your-Shy...sr_1_1_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

This is the book that I read multiple times:

Help for Your Shy Dog: Turning Your Terrified Dog into a Terrific Pet by Deborah Wood


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Good for you. I would still recommend a couple of hours with a good trainer. Were you happy with the trainer you looked at.?


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## HavaneseinAZ (Dec 9, 2011)

davetgabby said:


> Good for you. I would still recommend a couple of hours with a good trainer. Were you happy with the trainer you looked at.?


Yes, I do like him. I don't think he was being negative so much as being honest and not blowing sunshine. I think he wanted to make sure we chose our path with eyes wide open. He's good about explaining not just the what, but the why and is very much into gentle and positive training. My dh knows him and I think the whispers in the ear have been invaluable for keeping my dh's expectations reasonable.


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## Judy -- Toby & Jaime's mo (Apr 21, 2007)

*Trainer*

Now that you provide more information, your trainer sounds good. It is important to be realistic and assure commitment of the owners. There are so many failed dog relationships because people do not have a realistic expectation of what is required to having a dog. It is rare that they are "instant dogs" that cause no problems.

While I have had a number of rescues or "recyled" dogs in my life, I have only had a couple of puppies. When I overall assess the situation, my shy puppy mill rescues (that did have the benefit of time in a foster home to begin to see a regular world) were not really more time consuming than all the things you go through with puppies -- VERY DIFFERENT and perhaps not as many resources available. I would do it all over again!

One thing I did not mention in my previous post, is I never coddled my shy dogs. oh, you you poor baby kind of thing -- which is a very common reaction with shy dogs -- that just reinforces the shy behavior. If they would get spooked I would make light of it and immediately go on. Would never force someone on either of the girls -- if they want to go up to the person great, if not I just explain their background. I did carry treats in my pocket a lot and if a person stopped to talk to us (a lot do when walking three adorable dogs) and if they wanted to pet I would ask if they would like to give them a treat -- really helped.

Like I said in my post, if you do not have another dog if your dog could interact with another friendly, happy, outgoing little dog that might be very useful.

Keeps us posted on how things are going.


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## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

Judy -- Toby & Jaime's mo said:


> Dear HavaneseinAZ
> 
> Many of the things you are experiencing (but not as bad) are things we dealt with two adult puppymill rescues (one 18 months when she got out, and the other twoish when got out). Totally and completely unsocialized, never experienced normal dog behaviors -- walking on leash, walking on grass, being exposed to anything in a house, never in a car and were not treated well and did not have enough to eat. You feel like they do not like -- they look sad and go around with their tails down. Both of them arrived (separately) after being in foster homes for three or four months. Being with normal dogs helps enormously and they tend to pattern that behavior.
> 
> ...


Just wanted to say what a lovely photo!And Jamie hides her age well!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Judy -- Toby & Jaime's mo said:


> Now that you provide more information, your trainer sounds good. It is important to be realistic and assure commitment of the owners. There are so many failed dog relationships because people do not have a realistic expectation of what is required to having a dog. It is rare that they are "instant dogs" that cause no problems.
> 
> While I have had a number of rescues or "recyled" dogs in my life, I have only had a couple of puppies. When I overall assess the situation, my shy puppy mill rescues (that did have the benefit of time in a foster home to begin to see a regular world) were not really more time consuming than all the things you go through with puppies -- VERY DIFFERENT and perhaps not as many resources available. I would do it all over again!
> 
> ...


 Right on Judy.


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## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

Carrying treats for other people to give to your dogs,is really good even if they are not particularly shy or nervous.


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## HavaneseinAZ (Dec 9, 2011)

Even if he still hides most of the day, it's easier when you're greeted in the morning with a wagging tail. 

I wouldn't say he came from a puppy mill. I think the breeder's intentions are good, but as life got more challenging, she started rationalizing taking shortcuts on training, esp with her older pups.

As to not coddling: I'd already read much on the whole confident leader thing. LOL My approach has been to ignore the fearful behavior and reward when he isn't. For example, after dh had been roughhousing loudly while I was making dinner, Sasha retreated shaking a little under a chair in the corner of the dining area. I just ignored it, but as we sat to eat, I dropped a piece of unseasoned meat in the open and put a dish of more meat bits between the kids. He came out and near the end of the meal the kids started offering treats, which he happily went from hand to hand to get. After dinner, he followed us into the family room and didn't hide. I feel like we gave him a chance to get over his own fear, and then let him choose food and praise over fear.

BTW, I know there's lots of opinion on feeding from the table (as in an absolute no-no), but for now the power of food is useful. Right now about 1/3 of his food is hand fed (not during meals), half of that is just his regular dog food.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Hav AZ you said ..."BTW, I know there's lots of opinion on feeding from the table (as in an absolute no-no), but for now the power of food is useful. Right now about 1/3 of his food is hand fed (not during meals), half of that is just his regular dog food." Right on . :whoo:


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