# Silvering?



## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

It looks like her face might be silvering a little. What age does this usually happen if it’s going to?


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## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

It usually starts pretty early! If they have 1 copy of the silvering gene it may start later, but 2 copies starts earlier. 

Keepers face started silvering pretty much as soon as He was born, and his butt is growing out more of a charcoal then silver, but definitely not the bright black of the first 2 inches. 

Here’s a picture progression. The third picture was taken at 10 weeks when I picked him up from the breeder. The last picture was a few weeks ago.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

She’s almost 13 weeks, but I’ve been kind of wondering for a while now. I wasn’t sure if she isn’t just getting more white in the face. It’s her chest and face I see it on, not her body so much, which is still shiny black. Could the face turn more white on a black dog with white markings?


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## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

What I did was look at the root of the hair where it grows. Is it a different colour from the tips?

Some of Keepers snout was just new growth as his muzzle grew out. But other hair is white or silver with black tips. So look right where the hair grows out of the skin - that was the easiest way for me.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

Oh I see. Keeper is gorgeous! I expected her to stay more black, but her face and chest are definitely kind of salt and pepper.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

It's definitely new hair, from the root. And especially around the muzzle and snout, but also sprinkled in the chest and belly. Breeder said this COULD happen, or she could stay black like her mom. I think both are beautiful. I am just fascinated by the change.


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## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

That’s the fun part of these dogs. You never know what you’re going to get.... lol


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## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

Here is a picture of Keepers fur. The tips are black. Then you get the silver. Then for some odd reason it’s darker at the root again. So we have no idea what’s happening with his butt. Lol


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I think when they have silver in their background, sometimes some funny things happen that are very unpredictable, even if they stay “mostly” a black dog. The King’s Nike is mostly black, but at times her “sprinkle” of white hairs gets thick enough that she looks like a dark charcoal. At other times, she looks almost completely black... you have to look closely to find the mixture of white hairs. 

We knew that Pixel COULD carry the silver gene... she has a VERY silver littermate. Even though she did not develop the silver “mask”, her black coat turned the brownish color that sometimes precedes a change to silver as an adolescent. Then she developed a wide splash of silver in her tail, and we thought she was on her way... Then she lost the silver splash in her tail, and when her adult coat grew in, she turned shiny black again... not even a sprinkle of white hairs!

Sophie, who is owned by DeeDee Murray here on the forum, is another one who started out as a black puppy with some white markings. She got a bit of silvering in her tail at the same time Pixel did. (They are almost exactly the same age) while Pixel reverted to black, Sophie developed adorable siver pantaloons. But the rest of her is still black!

So who knows?!?! LOL!


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

My breeder said the same thing. Who knows? Lol. Her mom stayed black and white but there are others in her line that haven’t!


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## Jimmysmother (Nov 29, 2019)

I got my very first Havanese puppy, Neeka, last Thanksgiving. At 8 weeks old, Neeka looked exactly like her dad did when he was eight weeks old. The photo of the dog hiking is her dad as an adult, and as each day goes by, Neeka is looking more and more like her adult dad. The other three pictures are of Neeka and my other Havanese puppy, Teddy/Teddy Bear/Mr. Bears, who is cream colored. Maybe Neeka and her dad both have the mask and silvering gene? 

Neeka is only 4.5 months older than Mr. Bears. Neeka, the black/gold/cream/silver puppy, is now 11 months old - she's my super high energy clown, who doesn't believe in sitting still. The vet says she's very lean and very muscled, yet I've kept to the vet recommended limits for daily walks and she's eating three times the recommendation on her box of dog food. 

The cream colored puppy, Mr. Bears, is now 6 months old - he's my tender hearted, calm, "sweetest easiest puppy there ever was" boy. He eats the recommended amount of dog food and vet says he's at the correct weight. He seems to be made of mush instead of muscle - which makes it easy for him to literally wrap himself around your neck or lap. He loves being held or in someone's lap. 

I waited to get these puppies until I was at a season in my life where I could devote the majority of my time to puppy raising and teaching them some basic manners. So far, fingers crossed, they are not defiant, yappy, leash pulling puppies. Yes, Neeka used to have terrorist moments when she was over tired or when soft hearted hubby gave her too much freedom. Then hubby would laugh, which didn't help her, but it did help make the COVID-19 quarantined a ton more fun.

Each day, these two bring our family so many smiles and laughs and warm fuzzies. 

When I added Mr. Bears, I was prepared for chaos that kept myself, hubby, and two homeschooled teens hopping, and for Neeka to not like Mr. Bears.:fencing: Instead, I've found that having these two particular puppies has been MUCH easier than having just the wild and wonderful, Neeka, and that they are the bestest of friends. :whoo: I could make a fortune videos off of videos of these two playing together. As long are there aren't marrow bones around, they play wonderfully. Since Neeka doesn't believe in napping, Mr. Bears has his own ex pen during nap times and they sleep in separate kennels at night. They've been sleeping for 12 hours a night since Mr. Bears was 10 weeks old. Praise God for strong bladdered puppies!

Neeka, :dance:, needed lots of clicker training to learn sit (well, her butt always stayed an inch or so off the floor during a sit), down, leave it, drop, come, fetch, loose leash walking... I so enjoy clicker training and am a silly, goofy, positive trainer and Neeka LOVES clicker training. It took her one day of clicking to learn "bang bang" except it only takes her 0.2 seconds to turn a circle, roll on her back, and hop back up. Praise God for happy puppies who eagerly work for a piece of kibble.

I was all eager to clicker train Mr. Bears, but he just didn't need a clicker, he simply offered sit, loose leash walking, "leave it". :surprise: Apparently, Mr. Bear's mama is just as easy a dog as he is. :angel: So, my clicker has been in the drawer since Mr. Bears came into my life. Neeka behaves cuz Mr. Bears keeps her from boredom, and Mr. Bears behaves cuz that's apparently what Mr. Bears do. Instead of Neeka earning her kibble, one click at at time throughout the day, she now gets it all at once. No more "Neeka, leave it" (paper fell onto floor), click, toss kibble onto laminate flooring. "Neeka, drop" (hubby's slipper), click, toss kibble onto the flooring, "Neeka, come" (instead of trying to squeeze out the door), click, toss kibble onto flooring, "Neeka, toy" (instead of her heading towards the dirty sock), click, toss kibble onto the floor, "Neeka, bone" (land sharking), click, toss kibble onto the floor. :tea::tea:


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## Jimmysmother (Nov 29, 2019)

I think I've now attached a larger photo of Neeka's dad, so you can see if he might have the silvering gene.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

They’re so cute! I don’t know too much about the silvering gene, though lol. Are yours sable? They almost always lighten from my understanding, but I’m not sure how silvering factors in!


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

Jimmysmother said:


> I think I've now attached a larger photo of Neeka's dad, so you can see if he might have the silvering gene.


I was reading a bit about this, and I bet he does. Silvering gene is common at least to some expression. My chocolate turned silvery at his brown spots for a while, and then it went away!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jimmysmother said:


> I think I've now attached a larger photo of Neeka's dad, so you can see if he might have the silvering gene.


He looks MORE like a sable, but it's hard to tell for sure. You'd need to see photos of him younger. But a sable dad can have a silver puppy. Pixel's mom is sable (dad is a black Irish pied) and there was a silver in her litter.


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## HavaCoco (Aug 31, 2018)

i'm very interested in this thread! My havi is a little over 2 years old and she has silver in her tail and a little bit on her back, but not sure what to expect next! She has lightened considerably to almost an apricot color now. It's been fascinating to watch!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Woods said:


> She's almost 13 weeks, but I've been kind of wondering for a while now. I wasn't sure if she isn't just getting more white in the face. It's her chest and face I see it on, not her body so much, which is still shiny black. Could the face turn more white on a black dog with white markings?


Yes, sometime black dogs (or black HEADDED dogs, in Kodi's case) do get more white hairs on the faces way earlier than you would think was age related. (That happens in some other breeds too... Golden Retrievers, Great Danes, Boxers, and some hounds like Treewalkers... I'm sure there are other breeds too. But I don't know if this is related to the silver gene or some other genetic "modifier", since it does seem to usually stay in that pattern around the muzzle and eyes. Kodi developed little "eyebrows". You have to look closely, but the hairs in that areas are actually balck and white steiped. (Each individual hair) I have NO idea what causes that.

There are som many color modifiers in Havanese that it's really hard to know for sure what's going on in some cases. Which is one of the charms of the breed!


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

This is Roxie's mom. I kind of hope she stays black because she and Oliver are so contrasting in their coloring.


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## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

Roxie’s mom is stunning just like her daughter. How old is Roxie now?


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

Faithb said:


> Roxie's mom is stunning just like her daughter. How old is Roxie now?


I can't believe she's already almost 14 weeks. We brought her home at 8 weeks. In this almost 6 week time she has gone from 2.5 to 4.8 lbs!


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

Here's a new pic


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

I also love this one of her and Oliver. He is a 12 lbs Hav, so average sized adult. But compared to her he looks giant.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I LOVE the picture of Roxie and Oliver together!


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I LOVE the picture of Roxie and Oliver together!


Poor guy. She won't leave him alone. I separate them for training and play with me and the kids. Because he gives me this look, like, "help mom!" She will literally attach herself to his muzzle with her TEETH. And the only way he can get her off is to pin her down!


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## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

Melissa Woods said:


> I can't believe she's already almost 14 weeks. We brought her home at 8 weeks. In this almost 6 week time she has gone from 2.5 to 4.8 lbs!


Time certainly flies by!


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

How old is your new puppy, Faith?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Woods said:


> This is Roxie's mom. I kind of hope she stays black because she and Oliver are so contrasting in their coloring.


She's a pretty girl! Wonderful markings!


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## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

Melissa Woods said:


> How old is your new puppy, Faith?


He was 8 weeks this past Friday. When did you start puppy school with Roxie?


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

We started puppy school around 10-11 weeks. That’s just how it worked out with the start of the session.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Faithb said:


> He was 8 weeks this past Friday. When did you start puppy school with Roxie?


Both my girls started school the week they came home. Kodi started a little later, just because I was not yet involved with a school, and I had to wait for a new class to start.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

My Sophie has silvered on her "pants" in the back and she's quite silver in her arm pits and flanks. And she is getting silver hairs a bit through her coat. But to look at her she still pretty much looks black. Her breeder said she should be her final color by 6 and she will be 6 in February. It will be interesting to see if any more silver comes in. This doesn't show it too well but you can see the silver on her back legs and starting on her front.


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## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

Sophie is such a pretty girl!


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Thank you! I wish they always looked like the first do right out of the bathtub lol. Your baby is a doll too!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dee Dee said:


> My Sophie has silvered on her "pants" in the back and she's quite silver in her arm pits and flanks. And she is getting silver hairs a bit through her coat. But to look at her she still pretty much looks black. Her breeder said she should be her final color by 6 and she will be 6 in February. It will be interesting to see if any more silver comes in. This doesn't show it too well but you can see the silver on her back legs and starting on her front.


I LOVE her "ombre" pantaloons!!! I think she's a great example of a Havanese with a single copy of the "silver" gene!


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

"Ombre Pantaloons". LOL! I should have my hair ombre'd the same color! 
Cool! So what tells you she is a single copy of the silver gene?


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

I looked it up! I think you are exactly right! 
I sort of hope she silvers even a bit more. I love how her feet have stayed pretty solid black so from the back she sort of looks like a himalayan cat.
This shows her black feet under her silver pantaloons :laugh2: a little better. If you lift her coat up her flank and behind her elbows are super silver and also on the sides of her back legs (around stifle level) also. And more salt and pepper in her coat all over this year.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dee Dee said:


> "Ombre Pantaloons". LOL! I should have my hair ombre'd the same color!
> Cool! So what tells you she is a single copy of the silver gene?


If she had two copies, she would have started silvering very early, and would be the color of a silver Poodle. Pixel's sister Elke is one of those and she had silver all around her eyes by 8 weeks. All the "white" on her face is silver. She had no white facial markings.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dee Dee said:


> I looked it up! I think you are exactly right!
> I sort of hope she silvers even a bit more. I love how her feet have stayed pretty solid black so from the back she sort of looks like a himalayan cat.
> This shows her black feet under her silver pantaloons :laugh2: a little better. If you lift her coat up her flank and behind her elbows are super silver and also on the sides of her back legs (around stifle level) also. And more salt and pepper in her coat all over this year.


She's beautiful!!!


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

I remember Elke!! She is really beautiful too! Is that a recent photo of her? Do they typically stop changing their color at some age? I guess for the ones that turn pure white they do LOL


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dee Dee said:


> I remember Elke!! She is really beautiful too! Is that a recent photo of her? Do they typically stop changing their color at some age? I guess for the ones that turn pure white they do LOL


I think that photo is about a year and a half ago.

Silvers never turn white (not like grey horses!  ) Elke's color in this photo is probably CLOSE to as light as they get. Twinkle, the King's foundation bitch (and Kodi and Pixel's grandmother) was also silver. You can see her here:

Starborn Havana Silk Dogs

Silvers DO lighten and darken over time. Right now, Elke is darker than this again, though still no where nearas dark as Sophie. Reds and sables can do this too!

What I wonder about is dogs like Pixel,who develop silver streaks (Pixel had them on her ears, her head, and a BIG silver swatch in her tail) that then seem to disappear completely. We know that Pixel COULD carry a single silver gene, because both of her parents do, and she has a silver sibling. But after those silver markings faded away again, she hasn't shown any again. Of course it doesn't matter, because she will never pass her genes on, but I find it very interesting!

Nike, another of the Starborn dogs, is also a "single copy silver". Sometimes she is a black dog with a sprinkle of white hair through her coat, and other times she is more noticeable (but still very dark) silver. I've known a couple of other Havanese with coloring similar to Nike. I think what makes Havanese silver (especially the single gene ones) so variable is that unlike Poodles, who only have a FEW color genes to work with, our breed has so MANY volor genes and color MODIFYING genes... many of which we don't completely understand and that have not yet been identified. That leads to an almost endless array of interesting color possibilities!


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

The top of Molly’s head and around her eyes used to be all black. This is what it looks like now - a lot of white hair mixed in with the black. Is this silvering or something else?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Molly120213 said:


> The top of Molly's head and around her eyes used to be all black. This is what it looks like now - a lot of white hair mixed in with the black. Is this silvering or something else?


Possibly... Hard to say, if it's only around a white marking. Does she have silver in her family?


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

I'm looking at Dee Dee's photo of Sophie and how the hair is so long on her feet. Oh my word. I have to admit that I've allowed the groomer to trim her feet so the hair is not as long as Sophie's on her feet. Does anyone else who has a full coated dog trim the feet a bit? Dee Dee, doesn't Sophie's feet pick up a lot of sticks, leaves and stuff like that? I love the way the feet look but I think if Willow's hair on her feet was as long it would be a mess. We don't have sidewalks so she is always walking on dirt or gravel or grass.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> I'm looking at Dee Dee's photo of Sophie and how the hair is so long on her feet. Oh my word. I have to admit that I've allowed the groomer to trim her feet so the hair is not as long as Sophie's on her feet. Does anyone else who has a full coated dog trim the feet a bit? Dee Dee, doesn't Sophie's feet pick up a lot of sticks, leaves and stuff like that? I love the way the feet look but I think if Willow's hair on her feet was as long it would be a mess. We don't have sidewalks so she is always walking on dirt or gravel or grass.


I trim the leg/foot hair right at ground (table!) level on my coated Havs, only trimming out the bottoms of their feet to prevent slipping. OTOH, Willow is a pet, she's not showing, and there is NOTHING wrong with trimming her feet if you prefer it that way!!!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

That’s a good point, about the length of hair. I have always kept the length on the legs just a little bit shorter than the body. It does seem to blend in, it’s not like they’re clippered short and the rest of the body is long. It’s more like the legs are sort of tapered. I really like it this way.

I’m now wondering if there are other ways to trim the legs that might allow for the same long look but help with maintenance. Such as texturizing or thinning them a bit in the under layers. I think it would still require combing out, otherwise the short hair might cause mats, but I wonder if it could make it a bit faster.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I'm now wondering if there are other ways to trim the legs that might allow for the same long look but help with maintenance. Such as texturizing or thinning them a bit in the under layers. I think it would still require combing out, otherwise the short hair might cause mats, but I wonder if it could make it a bit faster.


What some people do is do a "Poodle foot", shaving them completely, while leaving the leg hair long enough to cover the shaved feet underneath.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Once, our groomer gave Shama poodle feet by mistake. We did not like that look! It was right before a big photo shoot at my aunt's lake place. Here's a photo of that look along with a couple that show how we like her feet, just cut even with the ground. I like it when they look like little bell bottoms!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

ShamaMama said:


> Once, our groomer gave Shama poodle feet by mistake. We did not like that look! It was right before a big photo shoot at my aunt's lake place. Here's a photo of that look along with a couple that show how we like her feet, just cut even with the ground. I like it when they look like little bell bottoms!


Wondering too if poodle feet might get a little chilly in winter!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ShamaMama said:


> Once, our groomer gave Shama poodle feet by mistake. We did not like that look! It was right before a big photo shoot at my aunt's lake place. Here's a photo of that look along with a couple that show how we like her feet, just cut even with the ground. I like it when they look like little bell bottoms!


That's the way I like them too! But if the Poodle foot thing is done right, it doesn't show unless they are wet or you pull the hair up. Because the hair from just above the foot on up is left natural, and it covers the feet. They can still have the "bell bottom" look.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Wondering too if poodle feet might get a little chilly in winter!


Maybe... but lots of dog breeds have very short hair on their feet...


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> Maybe... but lots of dog breeds have very short hair on their feet...


Good point. Wondering too if the poodle foot would allow the feet to dry out better which could be important for those in damp climates.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Good point. Wondering too if the poodle foot would allow the feet to dry out better which could be important for those in damp climates.


Yes. That's exactly WHY people use it.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Jackie I haven't been trimming anything on Sophie's coat for several months now except the occasional mat. LOL! And I do trim the hair on her pads so she doesn't slip and it also helps them dry out if wet. I will sometimes do like Karen and trim around her feet to round them out but I haven't even been doing that lately. I am really loving her full coat look. But I am also seriously considering trimming her down again for winter when I know there will be much more grooming involved with all of the rain we have here in the winter. But it will break my heart as I really do love her full coat look!

We walk/run a lot every day through trails in the woods etc so she does pick up debris for sure. And sometimes tree sap! Which I have to cut out before she gets to it or it turns into chewing gum for her. Heh. I try to keep her away from around trees and foliage so she doesn't pick up a tick. But being dry it's quite easy to just pull the stuff out afterwards. And if she feels a piece of dry grass or twig in her hair she will sit down during our walk and pull them out and I'll help her. She probably does bring some into the house with her but not noticable. I find most of the stuff she picks up ends up around her back legs and pants than anywhere else. Maybe because she sits down to pull stuff off of her.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

The Shama pics cuteness is killing me!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dee Dee said:


> And if she feels a piece of dry grass or twig in her hair she will sit down during our walk and pull them out and I'll help her. She probably does bring some into the house with her but not noticable. I find most of the stuff she picks up ends up around her back legs and pants than anywhere else. Maybe because she sits down to pull stuff off of her.


OMG! Kodi is SUCH a baby about this!!! If he got any plant material stuck in the long hair of his rear end, all walking ceased while he sat down (in more dead leaves) to try to pull it out. Since that tends to be an unproductive strategy, I always had to go and rescue him from the dreadful "plant butt problem"! LOL!

I was still so sick last fall that I didn't walk Kodi outdoors much of any in his shorter coat. And now he can't walk for more than 10 minutes because of his shoulder. But I THINK he will appreciate his shorter hair from that perspective when we get a chance to test it!!!


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

ROTFL! That is EXACTLY what happens here too!! Too funny!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Maybe if you try the poodle feet, you could just trim a couple inches all over for winter. Meaning, the time savings of an all over 4” trim might be the same as 2” all over with poodle feet, if most of your time grooming is spent on her legs. 

I definitely think I will try that in the future, especially knowing they look the same. I pictured poodle feet as long hair that meet at a short/shaved foot, because I have seen that before. But it makes sense that the feet could be shorter and the long hair would cover it. Especially since Havanese don’t have the tightly coiled coat.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I definitely think I will try that in the future, especially knowing they look the same. I pictured poodle feet as long hair that meet at a short/shaved foot, because I have seen that before. But it makes sense that the feet could be shorter and the long hair would cover it. Especially since Havanese don't have the tightly coiled coat.


Eeewww. Yes, I've seen that a couple of times and it looks AWFUL with these scrawny feet sticking out under too-short bell bottoms! Definitely NOT a good look!!! LOL!


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

krandall said:


> OMG! Kodi is SUCH a baby about this!!! If he got any plant material stuck in the long hair of his rear end, all walking ceased while he sat down (in more dead leaves) to try to pull it out. Since that tends to be an unproductive strategy, I always had to go and rescue him from the dreadful "plant butt problem"! LOL!


Oh it's ditto for Willow also! Hates anything stuck to her legs, tail, belly, butt, feet. However she'll wear dried leaves like earrings!


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