# The furminator



## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Today I decided to try the furminator on Vinny. He has the thickest coat ever with tons of underfur. I comb him every day and when I part the hair it just looks all "mushy" under there. He is always hot. Anyway, I only did it for a while and look at what came out! I have a lot more work to do on him. 
Lulu's coat is nothing like that! Hers is a lot finer and silkier and a furminator would never be good for her.
Somehow I thought havs weren't suppose to have all this underfur??
Carole


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

:jaw: *How does his coat look?*


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Katrina, actually it looks a lot better already. The black and white look brighter. Maybe it's because all the "mushy" stuff was in there. I still have more to get out but we're taking a rest for today, lol.
Vinny is a sable. Not sable color. No matter how many times I puppy cut him and make him look mostly silver, in a very short time his ends are black again. I think I will try to let it grow long and see if it's like a silver with black at the very bottom. That would be pretty?
The white part of him is soft and silky and the black and white on his back is a lot coarser. 
Carole


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## LuvCicero (Mar 31, 2008)

wow..that looks like a lot of undercoat. Cicero doesn't have that. What is the size of that mass of hair because it looks like a LOT?


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Carole, that is impressive. I thought I had read though on the package that you weren't supposed to use it for non-shedding breeds? anyone else know about that? I would love to use my on the boys.


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## karlabythec (Nov 9, 2008)

Yeah, it says this on their site:
he FURminator deShedding Tool should NOT be performed on any other pet or on non-shedding breeds of dogs and cats. Consult a veterinarian to determine if your dog or cat is considered a shedding or non-shedding breed.

However, it doesn't say why???


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Carole- Is there any Vinny left? Dora has some undercoat especially on her legs. She doesn't have much anywhere else. I didn't think Dash had any undercoat until he has gotten older. Just when I use the comb on him and I get a little bit out. I can only tell compared to combing my maltese. She doesn't have anything like undercoat. I know some havs seem to have a lot more than others.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

I personally wouldn't suggest using this on a Hav. It does state on their website not to be used with non-shedding breeds and I believe the reason is that when you remove the undercoat (and yes, Havs can be either single or double-coated) when it starts to grow back it can create HUGE tangles with the top coat. Essentially you're going to have a really big mess later on. I don't know if it's 100% certain that this will happen, but I think that's why it isn't recommended to use the furminator on a non-shedding breed.


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## karlabythec (Nov 9, 2008)

Oh, that kind of makes sense Lina...like when a puppy loses it's puppy coat and the coats mix together???


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Exactly.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Oh, great! We shall see. I didn't read about it I just had it sitting around from when we had our lab. The mass of fur I removed is about 10x8 inches. DH and I just think he looks so much better. Well, I won't do anymore for now and just wait and see what happens when it grows back in. I wonder how it is different than constantly combing out hunks of hair with a fine comb?
I guess if it gets too bad growing in I can always do a short puppy cut and start over.
Carole
on edit, yes it says not for use on Havanese! Oh well, thank goodness for puppy cuts, lol.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Carole, do you brush Vinny regularly with a fine-tooth comb? As in his whole body? When you do that, you can also create more mats because you're breaking the hair, rather than just combing out loose hair. With Kubrick, I always use a medium tooth comb for his whole body and a fine tooth one only in areas that had a knot or something, to make sure I get any hairs that might have come off of it. I didn't know about this before, either, and was using the fine tooth comb to brush Kubrick all over and although it's not like I was creating a huge mess with him, I did notice that when I switched to combing his body with the medium tooth comb (found this out on this forum, of course!) that the mats were not as abundant as they were before.

I hope Vinny's undercoat grows back without any problems, though!


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Lina, no, I've been combing him with a stagger tooth comb and a wide tooth comb like you describe. Just combing him with a wide tooth comb brings out a lot of hair. When I take his collar off in the morning to comb him the hair under his collar is always matted. It's the under fur. I just thought I'd try to get rid of all of that underfur. I use a finer face comb just for his face. 
I guess I'll just have to wait and see at this point. Don't you think that if I have a real problem later that I will be able to get a short puppy cut and let it all grow back in together? Arghh...
Carole


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Carole, I'm sure if you cut it short and let it grow back it would be better. And as far as the medium tooth comb goes, Kubrick also loses quite a bit of hair every time I comb him. Jane and I were mentioning this before and she said that Lincoln is the same way. Some of our Havs just have a much thicker coat than others. Kubrick's doesn't LOOK very thick, but it is, and he loses quite a bit of hair whenever he's brushed. I remember once someone showed a picture of some hair they took off their Hav after she was really matted and how they thought it was a lot, and it made me laugh because Kubrick loses that amount (or more) when he is brushed every 3-5 days. However, the hair that you're taking out with the comb is loose hair that is falling off (and getting knotted with the top coat) and NOT hair that you're pulling off from the undercoat, which is what the furminator does.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

I'll let you know how it all turns out..............


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Carole, I wouldn't worry. I did do it once on Jasper before I read that and I didn't notice more of a problem growing out...(but then again, he was blowing coat and I always have them in puppy cuts) I agree--worse case scenario...Vinny becomes a puppy again.


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## 2bWhalen (Dec 11, 2010)

How did this turn out? Our groomer used a furminator on our puppy AND he's blowing coat. I've found that since the grooming visit- the mats are ten times worse! In reading other posts, I've found myself cutting away with scissors to keep up along with loads of Coat Handler and the multitude of other products I've bought after reading posts on the forum. I don't know what to do at this point. Suggestions? Do we shave and start all over again? I feel like crying.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

awwwwwww, (((HUGS))) I have been there, done that recently with my little Tillie.
I thought for SURE i would be able to keep her in a full coat. Kept up with brushing and grooming everyday since we brought her home, got through the matting after she was spayed and I thought we were home free. THEN she REALLY started blowing coat and it was INSANE! I was spending nearly 2 hrs a day dematting her and then to turn around and find MORE matts like an HOUR later!? I thought everyone was just exageratting a bit and that I could surely handle it. LOL
After about a week of this and some disagreement from my husband, I decided it was BEST for Tillie and for ME AND for our relationship to just have her shaved down... all except her face/ears/beard and tail. And honestly, it is hot as heck here, so I KNOW she is happier for SURE. I still groom her everyday and am hoping to grow her out a few inches, but for now we are totally enjoying the low maitnence puppy cut!!
They are adorable however they look and are STILL Havanese even in short hair!! OH I really enjoy being able to give her a "full body massage" without all that pesky hair in the way or constantly searching for more matts! LOL
Hang in there, do what you can, but know that you are NOT failing if you end up doing a puppy cut!!! It ws pure freedom for me! I was OBSSESED with matts and driving Tillie and everyone else CRaZy!!  Good luck!!


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## 2bWhalen (Dec 11, 2010)

Thank you thank you thank you Tammy!!! I've adopted the MONK (from the old sitcom) nickname in the house and my husband complains that I spend more time with Sousuke than anyone. 

So a shave down versus patchy cutting you think will allow me to regain the love back? I thought I read somewhere that shaving is a no-no. (Sorry about the 20-questions.) As a promise to my family- I'm calling to a groomer now for back-up but I want to make sure I ask the right questions, give the right directions, and have them cut him right this time.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

I believe the NO shaving "rule" is for show dogs and also a Havs FACE!! Shaving the muzzle or anything like that would bring me to tears!!! 
When I broke down and took Tillie in I TOLD them verbally AND left a note with instructions to "LEAVE THE FACE, EARS, BEARD and TAIL alone! Please do NOT touch these areas!!" Everything else was shaved down. not to the skin or anything, she had a nice layer of curls, maybe 1/2 inch long.. gulp. Going from nearly 6 inches to 1/2 inch was HARD! LOL
Let me see if I can find her picture. Also, if you search the forum for Kipling, he has a GREAT puppy cut! I took his picture in when I took Tillie in.
Here she is RIGHT after she was shaved down... it's been about 2 months now and she is nice and shaggy looking finally!!!
Good Luck!! and TRY to remember that it IS only hair, it WILL grow back! 
oh and for me a shave down was better than patchy cutting because the matts will be where ever you haven't cut down! LOL


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Also, keep in mind that there are many "types" of coats of Havs and some are just plain harder to keep up. AND some havs are more tender skinned. My little Lulu screams when she sees a comb so for her a puppy cut is definitely the best. Vinny's coat is getting easier as he gets older, but because it's so thick I have been keeping him shorter too. Gabby's coat is getting easier now that she is two and somehow she wouldn't be Gabby without all her ever changing hair. And then there's Richie, he's very silky and easy so I wouldn't dream of cutting him down.
And to return to my original post 1 1/2 years ago, I have to say, it never did any harm when I used the furminator on Vinny. He didn't matt any more, maybe a bit less. I haven't used it since because it is not suppose to be used on Havanese but I'm still not sure why, lol. I guess they're all just different!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

GOOD point! Tillie is VERY cottony, thus the horrid matts she was getting, I WISH we had a silky coated hav! LOL


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## rdanielle (Sep 2, 2008)

TilliesMom said:


> GOOD point! Tillie is VERY cottony, thus the horrid matts she was getting, I WISH we had a silky coated hav! LOL


My girl with the silkiest coat matts up worst than my others.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

Really!? wow, Ive always heard the silky coats matted less. BUMMMMMER!


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## rdanielle (Sep 2, 2008)

Well right now she's blowin coat. So hopefully after she's done its easier!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

rdanielle said:


> Well right now she's blowin coat. So hopefully after she's done its easier!


Kodi has a silkier coat, and he matted when he was blowing coat too... But I don't think it was as bad as some of the pups I've read about on the forum. I really had to comb him out thoroughly twice a day, but at it's very worst, I never spent more than 20 minutes at a time doing it, as long as I kept up with it. ( I made the mistake of going away and leaving him with a friend for 10 days just as he started to blow coat... THAT cost us about 3 hours of grooming to recover from!)

Now, at 2, with close to an adult coat ( I've heard that their coat isn't really finished until they are abou 3 years old) I spend about 10 minutes a day combing him out. I can skip a day here and ther if I need to, but I try to stick with the every day schedule. He still gets small knots from time to time, but nothing thet I can't get out in a couple of minutes, with a bit of corn starch. I also find that the cleaner he is, the easier it is to keep him combed out, so he gets bathed about once a week.


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## rdanielle (Sep 2, 2008)

Yeah, they are easier to maintain the cleaner they are. I usually wash 1-2x. Doesn't help I have 3 that are in full coat & blowing coat! I got off track the other week with getting my other girls ready for a dog show and am now paying for it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

rdanielle said:


> Yeah, they are easier to maintain the cleaner they are. I usually wash 1-2x. Doesn't help I have 3 that are in full coat & blowing coat! I got off track the other week with getting my other girls ready for a dog show and am now paying for it.


Thats a LOT of bathing! I can get Kodi done in an hour if I stick to the program, with minimal cuddle time. But his favorite aprt (let's face it... the ONLY part of bath time that he likes!:biggrin1 is cuddling, wrapped up in his towels, before I blow dry him. It doesn't seem fair to take that part away, when he's really good about all the rest, but has this S-A-D expression on his face throughout!

I can't imagine trying to keep up with 3. Well, I can IMAGINE it, but I'm not sure I'd want to do it!ound:

I think it was you who gave the tip about the CC wooden pin brush and bath products deal, wasn't it? I have to say, I do love the brush. Haven't tried the bath products yet!


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

What I'm finding is that the baby fuz hair is what is turning into mats. And starting with the wider comb and going down in size lair by lair starting at the bottom and going all the way to the skin will get the fuzzies out I then use the slicker brush designed for toy breeds to get additional fuz. I have now been keeping up with it by combing daily .
I would still love to find out how to turn stained white hair white again? I have no idea if Zoey is a cotton or a silk? It feels real soft but she develops a cord look if left uncombed does that give a clue? Maddie on the other hand only had mats at a very young age around 3mo she has a soft curly coat that is only about 4'' long.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Even the silky ones who have a lot of undercoat will matt when they blow coat. Actually all of them matt sometimes. I just think the silkier ones are a lot easier because the matts separate easier. Richie does not have a lot of undercoat and that makes me very happy ) 
Tammy, it took me four to get a silky one, you need to get busy, lololol.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> What I'm finding is that the baby fuz hair is what is turning into mats. And starting with the wider comb and going down in size lair by lair starting at the bottom and going all the way to the skin will get the fuzzies out I then use the slicker brush designed for toy breeds to get additional fuz. I have now been keeping up with it by combing daily .
> I would still love to find out how to turn stained white hair white again? I have no idea if Zoey is a cotton or a silk? It feels real soft but she develops a cord look if left uncombed does that give a clue? Maddie on the other hand only had mats at a very young age around 3mo she has a soft curly coat that is only about 4'' long.


Good for you for keeping up with it. It's much easier that way!

When I was away for almost 3 weeks and Kodi stayed with a friend, he came home happy but REALLY dingy. I tried washing him as I normally do, but he was still pretty grey. I asked our groomer, who does his trimming, and this was her advice:

Use a blueing-based whitening shampoo (I use Biogroom Superwhite anyway, so I was all set)

Wet the dog down, but then remove as much water as you can with your hands.

Massage PLENTY of FULL STRENGTH whitening shampoo into all the areas that need whitening.

Wait a full 5 minutes before rinsing, then continue to bathe as you normally would.

If they are really grey (or yellow) it can take doing this treatment two or more times before you get her back to really white. Once you get them really clean again, you can usually keep up with it by only doing the "soak" treatment on the parts that get really dirty (usually feet and skirt) and washing the rest of the body and head as you normally would.

As far as Maddie is concerned, her coat has always been a bit unusual. 4" is awfully short for her age. OTOH, I know a Hav who has done really well showing (has finished her championship) whose coat didn't start to lengthen until she was WELL over a year. So it's possible that Maddie could still grow more coat.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Thanks karen I looked it up and I can buy it near by at Kmart! I also noticed this product I'm going to see if it is stocked their also have you tried it?

Bio Groom Super Cream Coat Conditioner Concentrate for dogs and cats, is the most effective Oil Treatment for coat and skin. An oil-rich cream that contains wheat germ oil, protein, vitamin E and other special cosmetic grade coat and skin conditioners. Deep conditions instantly essential for dry, damaged hair. Moisturizes the skin to help prevent and relieve dryness and itching. Easy wet and dry combing. Leaves coat shiny and in top show condition with non-oily feel. Non-irritating, anti-static, pH balanced to natural skin acidity. Wash out with Bio-Groom Shampoo.

Directions:
Super Cream liquefies when bottle is heated in hot water.

1) To "put dog in oil": Add 2 heaping teaspoons of Super Cream to a pint of hot water. Stir and mix well until dissolved (when liquefied Super Cream is used, mix about 1oz with the hot water). Shampoo coat with Bio Groom shampoo while solution cools to body temperature. Now, saturate the coat with the solution and massage in well. Towel dry the hair, then brush dry.

2) For matted, tangled hair: Mix equal parts of Super Cream (or liquefied Super Cream) and hot water. Saturate mattes and tangles with warm mixture and leave on the hair for 15-20 minutes. Then comb or be separated or sliced.) Bathe with Bio-Groom Shampoo for a clean non-oily and shiny coat. Rinse, dry and finish grooming.

3) For routine grooming: To benefit from its special coat and skin conditioning properties, Super Cream can be added to Bio-Groom Shampoo. To prepare 1 pint of Super Cream enriched shampoo, dissolve about 1/2 oz of Super Cream in 12 oz of hot water. Pour into pint size or larger bottle, add 4-5 oz of Bio Groom Shampoo and shake. Shampoo the coat with this enriched shampoo. Rinse, dry and finish grooming as usual. To prepare 1 quart of Super Cream enriched shampoo double the above ratio, etc. This super conditioning shampoo mixture reduced brushing time and leaves coat non-oily, shiny and in top show condition.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> Thanks karen I looked it up and I can buy it near by at Kmart! I also noticed this product I'm going to see if it is stocked their also have you tried it?
> 
> Bio Groom Super Cream Coat Conditioner Concentrate for dogs and cats, is the most effective Oil Treatment for coat and skin. An oil-rich cream that contains wheat germ oil, protein, vitamin E and other special cosmetic grade coat and skin conditioners. Deep conditions instantly essential for dry, damaged hair. Moisturizes the skin to help prevent and relieve dryness and itching. Easy wet and dry combing. Leaves coat shiny and in top show condition with non-oily feel. Non-irritating, anti-static, pH balanced to natural skin acidity. Wash out with Bio-Groom Shampoo.
> 
> ...


I don't know... it sounds kind of heavy for a Hav whose coat is in good condition to start with... maybe if you have a dog whose coat or skin is in bad condition it would be OK. I know they oil Lhasas, but I've never heard of anyone oiling a Hav. I wouldn't use it on Kodi.

The conditioner I use is Bio-Groom Silk. It is light, smells good, and can be easily cut 10/1 as a grooming spray. Coat Handler's is good too, but I don't find that it works any better on Kodi's coat, and it's quite a bit more expensive.

I buy both my shampoo and conditioner in gallon bottles over the internet. It's a lot cheaper that way. Then I just keep refilling the small sized bottles from the big ones for actual use. My breeder uses the gallon sized bottles with big pump nozzles in them. But she's got a dedicated grooming area, and has to bathe a lot of dogs. I keep the small bottles in Kodi's grooming basket, and the big ones are tucked away in the cabinet.


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## charley_brown (Mar 6, 2011)

I use this stuff after Charley gets his baths (which has only been 2 since I brought him home) called "The Stuff". It is AMAZING on his coat & it keeps him super tangle free for WEEKS! I brush him everyday with what looks like a regular human brush and so far I have yet to have an issue with knots! I hope it stays that way! 

If anyone is interested I bought it off of amazon and it was recommended by a bunch of groomers for his type of coat! And I LOVE it. 

The other nice thing about the product is you really dont need to use a ton. I use about 3-4 sprays total (oh his wet coat) and then blow his coat dry and bam he looks like a fluff ball with no knots! wonderful wonderful product!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Hope it keeps working for you, but if I remember, Charley is still pretty young, right? Young puppies don't usually mat much anyway.


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## charley_brown (Mar 6, 2011)

krandall said:


> Hope it keeps working for you, but if I remember, Charley is still pretty young, right? Young puppies don't usually mat much anyway.


Yeah, he is still pretty young. So, I hope it works when he is older & loses his puppy coat. I hope all the groomers I asked and all the online reviews didnt steer me wrong!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

charley_brown said:


> Yeah, he is still pretty young. So, I hope it works when he is older & loses his puppy coat. I hope all the groomers I asked and all the online reviews didnt steer me wrong!


Well, the WORST thing that could happen is that you need to find a different product. The thing is that if you ask 10 people on this board what works best on their dogs' coats, you'll get at least 9 answers. Hav coats vary so greatly that there is no one product that works "best" for everyone. So use it until/unless it doesn't work, then try other things until you find a different product that you like better!


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## charley_brown (Mar 6, 2011)

krandall said:


> Well, the WORST thing that could happen is that you need to find a different product. The thing is that if you ask 10 people on this board what works best on their dogs' coats, you'll get at least 9 answers. Hav coats vary so greatly that there is no one product that works "best" for everyone. So use it until/unless it doesn't work, then try other things until you find a different product that you like better!


well, i hope it works for a while cause its a decent size bottle and you use it sparingly haha. so let's hope it at least works until i run out ;-)


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

Suzi, maybe Maddie is going to be like Abby and be a slow hair grower. Her hair was short for a long time and now at nearly four it is about the same length as it was about a year ago. I cut some bangs a year and a half ago and she still has some short hair right above the eyes that won't stay in the topknot and seem to never get any longer. She also doesn't seem to have much of an undercoat. The one bright spot is that she is really easy to comb and her cottony back makes her hair look fuller than it actually is!


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Using oil on havs has been known to attract dirt so if you try it you may need to bathe again sooner. And just a wee bit of info you may be interested in, the whitening dog shampoos have been known to dry out the coat if used too often.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mellowbo said:


> Using oil on havs has been known to attract dirt so if you try it you may need to bathe again sooner. And just a wee bit of info you may be interested in, the whitening dog shampoos have been known to dry out the coat if used too often.


I haven't found this to be true with Bio-Groom Super White. Kodi has never been bathed in anything else in his life, and his coat is long, soft and shiny. I know his breeder uses it regularly on her (mostly) white dogs too. But I think there is a difference between shampoos with blueing in them and shampoos that actually bleach the hair.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

with the bio groom do you dilute it or use it as is? Also, is it okay to use on colored parts or will it lighten the colored parts? Tillie's is a red irish peid and has some apricot on her back that I don't want to loose!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TilliesMom said:


> with the bio groom do you dilute it or use it as is? Also, is it okay to use on colored parts or will it lighten the colored parts? Tillie's is a red irish peid and has some apricot on her back that I don't want to loose!!!


I dilute it, except on the places that need to be whitened, just because it's easier to spread around evenly that way.

I'm sure it won't "bleach" anything... I use it on Kodi's head too, and that's still black. It works like putting blueing in the wash. OTOH, Bio-Groom has several other shampoos too, so in your case, where Tillie isn't really white anyway, (Kodi is WHITE white... not creamy, so any discoloration really shows) so you might want to try one of their other formulas. They specifically have one for tan-red dogs, but that might be darker than you want for Tillie. Here's one that sounded like it might be a good place to start for a dog where whitening isn't an issue:

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Bio Groom
Protein Lanolin Shampoo
Bio Groom Protein Lanolin Shampoo Protein Lanolin Shampoo is of tearless shampoo concentrate. This unique formula will highlight all colors and make the coat shine! With a baby-mild, coconut oil base, it will thoroughly clean without stripping natural oils from skin and coat.

Prevents dryness, rinses out completely leaving no irritating residue. Hair dries smooth, manageable, and tangle-free. pH balanced and biodegradable. Safe for puppies and kittens.

Available in 1 gallon or 32 ounce bottle.
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BTW, they are all in the coconut oil base, without the chemicals you want to avoid in dog shampoos, and they are all "tearless" formulas, so you don't have to worry about using it on their faces.


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