# Smarty�s Journey back to Balance



## SMARTY

*Smarty's Journey back to Balance*

Smarty's Journey back to balance&#8230;.

This is going to be a very hard night for us. Smarty will not be in our bed, she has to sleep in her crate.

Many of you know her story, bought in a parking lot, finished her championship by 9 months, first place in obedience, started in agility and rally. Then BAM we hit a brick wall, she became fear aggressive, a Tasmanian devil when she approached other dogs. She was a drooling mess when she went to playdates, totally stressed. Classes and trainers for 2 years did not help. So I took the plunge today and hired a private trainer. This is the way it went.

He arrived and my girls did their "we are Rottweilers don't come in". He took 2 steps in and they both stopped barking and laid down. Holy smoke! I was trying to see if he had used some kind of spray on them. We sat and talked for at least 30 minutes and my girls slept, never before had this happened. He does have a gift with dogs.

When we worked Smarty on leash, she did everything perfect for me, until he got close. She shut down, no sits, no downs, she would not make eye contact with the trainer. She was like a log on a leash.

Bottom line, Smarty has been allowed to rule the house. The cute sit up shake your paws and her dancing to get what she wants has not been handled to her/our advantage. We have let her become an unwanted pack leader. We forced it on her&#8230;.He said if you don't lead they will.

Now I have had dogs all my life and never faced a situation like with Smarty. Guess what? That is normal many people who started with large dogs then went to small dogs face this same problem. They are cute, and get what they want. If you are not the leader then they will be. I know this and still let my precious Smarty become something that was too stressful for her "pack leader". So my home work for this week is, both girls are off the bed and sleep in their crates. No treats unless they worked to earn them. They are only allowed to be next to us on furniture when invited. If they jump up on there own, they are to put in the floor. No harsh voices, not physical punishment. At the door they have to wait until I am ready for them to go. They are to sit & down until released, not just for a second or two.

If I just wanted Smarty to be a sweet house dog, never going any where she was perfect. But I want more&#8230;..to get back into showing (OB and Agility), taking her on walks at the park, to playdates and feeling she is comfortable and happy in any situation. So this will be our journey for the next 10 weeks. We will keep you posted.


----------



## KSC

Wow..thanks for sharing your story with us Sandi. Good luck!


----------



## Missy

Good luck Sandi and Smarty. I will follow your journey with great interest.


----------



## Maxmom

Good for you, Sandi! Hopefully you will motivate me to get of my own duff!


----------



## Sheri

Sandi and Smarty, wishing you good luck, patience, and bucket-loads of tenacity for the next ten weeks! It sounds like this would be SO difficult--but if this is on track and right for her and what she needs, that will be worth every minute! 

I'll be anxious and watching to see how things are going, and how YOU are doing.


----------



## Evye's Mom

Good for you Sandi. Hopefully many of us will learn something through your journey. Good luck to you, Smarty and Galen.


----------



## irnfit

Sandy, good luck to you and Smarty. I hope this works for both of you.


----------



## davetgabby

Good for you Sandi for taking the steps to find some "balance" Hopefully in ten weeks you will learn the steps to this journey. This will be an ongoing process that will need to be followed forever. Socialization never ends ,it must be worked on continually.


----------



## Poornima

Good luck Sandi and Smarty!


----------



## Scooter's Family

Wow Sandi, I love your girls and think they're both sweeties. I wish you and Smarty good luck and can't wait to hear how things go.


----------



## kloie's mom

Good luck and thank you for reminding me to stay the pack leader even with my small dog


----------



## luv3havs

Sandy,
Thanks for sharing. this will help many of us, I'm sure.
We'll be following your progress.
Good luck!


----------



## good buddy

I'm pulling for ya! I'll be interested to follow along and see how it works for you. I've been having some of the same problems here and have been working to make some changes as well. I have fluffy Rottweilers sometimes too!


----------



## gelbergirl

I had no idea this was going on.

Your Smarty is smart - and will learn the new program quickly.
She loves you very much., I will check on this thread.


----------



## FancyNancy

I have had a similar story with my Henry who is 9 months old. As our trainer said, "Henry is flipping you the paw all over the place". I couldn't get him to come when I called. If he didn't feel like it, or was otherwise distracted, he would simply turn on his heel and run around no matter how much I cajoled/yelled/begged/etc. It was lack of respect BIG TIME. The trainer explained that it was not my "technique" - it was the fact that the dog had me wrapped around his little finger and knew he could do whatever he wanted and I would still goo-goo-ga-ga him all over the place. 

Same as you, I got put on the "Program". No picking him up, no hugging, no praise, no playing catch, no nothing unless he earned it by following commands. I did it for a week and got immediate results. The proof of the pudding came this morning when he trapped a squirrel in a tree and was having a great time tormenting the creature. I gave him a SIT/STAY/and COME and he IMMEDIATELY ran to my feet. Not even a hesitation - even though he was having so much fun. 

We are off the Program now but I am always mindful. I continue to make him work for almost everything. We do LOTS and LOTS of sits, stays, and comes everyday. It's how he (and I) remember who is in charge. And he loves all the praise he gets for being so wonderful. I never forget that his safety and my sanity depend my ability to control him in any situation no matter how **** cute he is. Your trainer sounds fabulous. I am sure you will be successful and Smarty will be the most wonderful happy dog on the planet. Best of luck!!


----------



## SMARTY

*Day 1*

Thanks everyone. My girls are real sweeties, but sometimes the behavior is not healthy or is totally annoying. Not sure if I should edit the first post with our progress or do week 1, week 2 and so on..

*Day 1
*
Last night to bed at 10:30: It was terrible for me. Smarty and Galen in their crates, snoring, I was tossing and turning until after 1 AM. I woke up at 6 and the girls are still snoring (!)

Before they could go out they had to sit, allow me to open the door and wait until I gave a release word, then they can go out to pee and poop. Galen was trying but she is a leg crossing dancer when she gets up. A short sit and wait, but they did it. Our release word is "free"

They are now earning their raw breakfast and dinner. On leash heeling, sitting, down, and come for now. This trainer does not like the clicker, he wants me to use voice praise along with or no treats. His reasoning is you voice is always there to praise when something is good, treats are totally optional. "Dogs want to please and will do it for free". He does not want the dog dependant on treats, as a tool OK, as a bribe No.

Galen was perfect on her morning walk-workout-breakfast. Smarty has decided I have to catch her if I want to put that black collar on her. Wrong&#8230;..she has not had breakfast, only been out once to relieve herself. She has gone to her bowl 50 times pushing it around to get my attention. She has to come to me and not run or play if she wants to eat.

This may be a novel before it is finished, it is only 9:00 on the first day&#8230;&#8230;..


----------



## FancyNancy

I just read your second post and again, same story as mine - NO TREATS. Kyle (our trainer) says "You are a dog handler, not a Pez dispenser!". It was so different than all the other training advise out there that at first I was skeptical. But Sandi, it works! The dog will obey you for one simple reason - he knows he has no choice. The training is a matter of making him do it right over and over, never giving up. The dog soon realizes that NOT doing what you say is no fun at all, and listening to you brings lots of praise and love. Easy choice! However, I spent the first day crying my eyes out when I had to not hug or play with him so I know how you feel.

Again, I have to say that I think you found a wonderful trainer. It worked for me and Henry. He is still a baby and has a way to go, but even in his babyhood, he is a more responsive, dependable dog than many older, larger dogs I have met. Keep up the good work - it will pay off big time.


----------



## FancyNancy

Oh, and by the way, change your signature!!! You are no longer the "Personal Attendant"! You are the DOG HANDLER. And you are in charge!


----------



## SMARTY

FancyNancy said:


> Oh, and by the way, change your signature!!! You are no longer the "Personal Attendant"! You are the DOG HANDLER. And you are in charge!


Funny. I'll think on a good signature.

I am allowed to love the girls all I want when they are in a submissive state. Play with them but I start and end the games for now. I have their love, their dependence and now we are working on total respect. I make the rules they follow.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

SMARTY said:


> Funny. I'll think on a good signature.
> 
> I am allowed to love the girls all I want when they are in a submissive state. Play with them but I start and end the games for now. I have their love, their dependence and now we are working on total respect. I make the rules they follow.


wow Sandy, this is great for us, maybe not so much for you  I have been watching the Dog Whisperer for months now and your trainer really sounds good. Sounds like Breakfast will be a little late, but it will come. Keep posting, I am so interested in how this progresses!


----------



## good buddy

Sandi I am in the same boat doing the walk before breakfast! Mine also have to sit at the door and wait to go out. *Marley would wait a second and then push past me! Rufus is a big-time nose-pusher of things when he wants food. The bowl is put up but he will push the trash bin and other things to try and get me to feed him. 

I know you said they were acting like Rottweilers with company coming, but Smarty was also lunging on walks wasn't she? Mine too~those are my two main problems. Are you having any other problems with them?


----------



## Leslie

Good for you, Sandi! :clap2: What a wonderful thing to do for your girls and yourself. I will be eagerly watching this thread and chime in w/my encouragement as you travel this road.

BTW~ I agree w/Nancy, it's time to change your signature


----------



## Luciledodd

I love it. Sometime ago, I stated that I did not train with treats and go critized. But you don't always have the treats. It is the little dog thing that lets us let them do as they please because they are so cute. My husband is definitely the "litter mate" to Rosie. She is awful with him and then he gets irritated because she won't get out of his face or let him sleep. I always have to step in to correct her for him. Now she is like a little child. She will try to creep up on him without me seeing her. If I look up, she immediately lays flat. Yes it is funny, but not in her best interest. I admit that I haven't tried very hard with Rosie because she is so happy and cute; but like a spoiled child, irritating also. Keep up the good work and will be waiting for more on this saga.


----------



## SMARTY

Nancy and Flynn, Danny is a great trainer he has been a Certified Master Trainer since 1982! He has more certifications and credentials than most doctors I know. He is very knowledgeable on new and old training techniques. We did have a Cesar moment when he came in the door. 

Christy, Smarty has several issues. Major ones…..leash aggression when dogs are approaching and totally stressing out at playdates or when in a group of dogs. She gets soaking wet drooling. All the other stuff I can live with but we have to go through the process of eliminating patterns and learned behaviors before to get to the main issues.

Lucile, I may have the same problem with my DH. He thinks they are perfect the way they are, because he doesn’t care about showing or even taking them to the park. But he will work with me on this because I want to change them.

Leslie, how is this signature?


----------



## FancyNancy

love the signature!!! The first step in changing their attidtude is to change yours. If you think you are their slave, they will too. Good for you Sandi!!


----------



## good buddy

SMARTY said:


> Christy, Smarty has several issues. Major ones&#8230;..leash aggression when dogs are approaching and totally stressing out at playdates or when in a group of dogs. She gets soaking wet drooling. All the other stuff I can live with but we have to go through the process of eliminating patterns and learned behaviors before to get to the main issues.


I hope today is going better for you! We are having the same aggressive behavior when dogs approach--Marley is charging and nipped my leg today.  :frusty: :frusty: :frusty: He was fed last at breakfast, is being ignored and is currently leashed to my body. *sigh He needs to learn he is not the pack leader. I had big dogs all my life too and never had a problem like this. Marley is enrolled in a training class right now and is so well behaved in class he gets pointed out as the good example. :suspicious: :faint: If we can't get his behavior under control, a personal trainer is my next plan too.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

SMARTY said:


> Nancy and Flynn, Danny is a great trainer he has been a Certified Master Trainer since 1982! He has more certifications and credentials than most doctors I know. He is very knowledgeable on new and old training techniques. We did have a Cesar moment when he came in the door.
> 
> Christy, Smarty has several issues. Major ones&#8230;..leash aggression when dogs are approaching and totally stressing out at playdates or when in a group of dogs. She gets soaking wet drooling. All the other stuff I can live with but we have to go through the process of eliminating patterns and learned behaviors before to get to the main issues.
> 
> Lucile, I may have the same problem with my DH. He thinks they are perfect the way they are, because he doesn't care about showing or even taking them to the park. But he will work with me on this because I want to change them.
> 
> Leslie, how is this signature?


Yes Sandi, you are taking the high road here!! Yes, good trainers absolutely amaze me, as with any good professional, they make it look so easy and it is when you know what you are doing. I have to agree about the treats, my reasoning is the weight the treats put on so many dogs. At least they do on my dogs. That is why I stuck with the veggies as treats. 
I am sure you will be most happy once this training is underway for a week or two and everyone knows what to expect. Thank you for sharing all this!


----------



## Missy

Go Sandi Go!!!! this sounds terrific as does your trainer. Thanks for sharing the techniques and the progress with us.


----------



## mimismom

Sandi, 
Thank you for sharing.. I know I have problems with Mimi and I think if we start out new again, especially with the new doggie, I am sure we can all live happier. 

I am eager to hear more about Smarty.


----------



## Lynn

Sandi, thanks for sharing...I am looking forward to following your progress, very interesting. I have the same aggressive behavior when dogs approach with Casper.

Is he aggressive when on a leash to other dogs because he thinks he is the pack leader? Do I under stand that correct?


----------



## ama0722

Sandi- good for you. I hope you can share with others and encourage those going through the similar issues.

PS- still do rally so we can play at Perry together sometime though 

Amanda


----------



## Scooter's Family

Hey Sandi-I'm loving hearing about your progress already! Where is Danny located and can I have him next?


----------



## krandall

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> Yes Sandi, you are taking the high road here!! Yes, good trainers absolutely amaze me, as with any good professional, they make it look so easy and it is when you know what you are doing. I have to agree about the treats, my reasoning is the weight the treats put on so many dogs. At least they do on my dogs. That is why I stuck with the veggies as treats.
> I am sure you will be most happy once this training is underway for a week or two and everyone knows what to expect. Thank you for sharing all this!


Training treats don't have to put weight on dogs. You just have to choose nutritious treats and factor them into your dog's daily food allowance. That way, the treats aren't "extra" food.


----------



## SMARTY

Lynn said:


> Is he aggressive when on a leash to other dogs because he thinks he is the pack leader? Do I under stand that correct?


That I don't know, Danny said she is doing it because I have allowed it. The door aggression, her pushing her way to sit where she wants, next to who she wants and the leash aggression is all related.


----------



## SMARTY

ama0722 said:


> PS- still do rally so we can play at Perry together sometime though
> 
> Amanda


We start Rally classes tonight. I'm going to Perry and enjoy it!

Ann, I sent you and email. Danny is Conyers.


----------



## Leslie

SMARTY said:


> Nancy and Flynn, Danny is a great trainer he has been a Certified Master Trainer since 1982! He has more certifications and credentials than most doctors I know. He is very knowledgeable on new and old training techniques. We did have a Cesar moment when he came in the door.
> 
> Christy, Smarty has several issues. Major ones&#8230;..leash aggression when dogs are approaching and totally stressing out at playdates or when in a group of dogs. She gets soaking wet drooling. All the other stuff I can live with but we have to go through the process of eliminating patterns and learned behaviors before to get to the main issues.
> 
> Lucile, I may have the same problem with my DH. He thinks they are perfect the way they are, because he doesn't care about showing or even taking them to the park. But he will work with me on this because I want to change them.
> 
> *Leslie, how is this signature?*


I LOVE IT!!! :thumb:


----------



## Beamer

Good luck Sandi!

Ryan


----------



## judith

keep it up sandi, you are off to a good start!


----------



## SMARTY

Interesting turn of events this week, my husband’s step mother passed away suddenly in Alabama. She had failing health for several years but nothing that prepared my dear father in law or us for this. I was on my way to the new Rally class when it happened so we had a quick change of plans. For their safety my girls are living in their crates in the rear mud room, just too many people coming and going. At first they had issues when DH and I walked by or they heard us, (“Pop, loves us let us out”), now they are waiting patiently for us to come to them. As sad as this time is in the family, I hope it is behavior curving experience for Smarty.


----------



## mintchip

Sorry to hear about your husband's step mother.


----------



## marjrc

My condolences to you and your family, Sandi.

I have to say, I'm impressed with everything you've told us about this training! Thank you so much for sharing it all with us. I really need to step things up around here too and this should motivate me. I love to learn all about different training methods. 

Please continue to keep us posted, Sandi. This is going to be such a great experience for you, the girls and even your husband!


----------



## good buddy

I'm sorry to hear about your husbands step-mother passing. Maybe this will be a learning experience for Smarty too--sort of a crash course in back to basics. Things aren't going as planned but they rarely do. I'm wishing you lots of luck!


----------



## Leslie

My deepest sympathy to you and your family :hug:


----------



## Evye's Mom

My sympathies to you Sandi and your husband's loss.


----------



## kloie's mom

Sorry to hear about the loss in your family


----------



## LuvCicero

Sandi, I'm just seeing this thread. I'm so sorry for your loss. 

Galen is a real cutie, but you know that Smarty has always been one of my favorites. She is a real beauty to me! I'm glad you are working with her and I hope I can pick up some tips with your thread. I try to be the leader, but my biggest problem is DH and I've given up trying to train him to train Cicero. He thinks Cicero is retired like him and should be able to do what he wants, when he wants. I think they both should listen to me. :whip:


----------



## lfung5

Sandi,
Sorry to hear about your sudden loss. 
I am looking forward to hearing about your journey.


----------



## marjrc

Dale, don't give up. One of these days those boys will realize who really wears the pants around the house!


----------



## SMARTY

Thank you everyone. This was a terrible week, unexpected deaths are so trying on everyone. My dear Mother in Law was a wonderful person and she will be missed.

My girls will never feel the same about going to see “Pop”. In the past it was a second home, but this trip they spent most the last 4 days almost totally in the crate, because of all the people coming and going and the rain was so bad they couldn’t be loose in the back yard. 

We are home now and they are so happy. Galen rolled on our carpet for a good ten minutes, Smarty keeps going in and out the door, like she is free at last.

I called Danny, the trainer, to reschedule our session for tomorrow and he said “Change is good for them, this is a learning experience of them not being in control and you are taking the lead.” It helped me not feel so guilty.


----------



## gelbergirl

my sympathies to you and your family.

Danny makes a point that this was a good learning experience.
I'm so glad to hear of Smarty and Galen being excited about being free, and think it is a good starting point toward taking a new road.


----------



## SMARTY

LuvCicero said:


> but you know that *Smarty has always been one of my favorites.* She is a real beauty to me! I'm glad you are working with her and I hope I can pick up some tips with your thread. I try to be the leader, but my biggest problem is DH and I've given up trying to train him to train Cicero. He thinks Cicero is retired like him and should be able to do what he wants, when he wants. I think they both should listen to me. :whip:


Thank you so much, she is a big part of my heart. I think she is beautiful and just want her to be as happy as possible.

I do remember a lesson I learn a long time ago with animals, you are either training or un-training all the time whether you know it or not.

I've met Cicero and he is pretty close to perfect to me. Maybe he is like most men, being boss is not important until they want something. Retirement sounds wonderful to me.


----------



## SMARTY

*2nd Lesson*

Lots of loose leash walking with dogs approaching. No matter how much she tries to be aggressive I am to keep walking making her stay at my side. When she relaxes into a normal walk you tell her "good girl" or what ever the words to let her know she is doing what are correct. At this point she can have a treat but it is not necessary. Treats are to be unexpected rewards, do not lure with treats.

Sitting having a dog approach, if she goes into the barking and aggression she is to be made to stay seated and with the word "sit, quiet", gently poke her to get the point across, once she relaxes she is given the "good girl" or petted, to let her know this is what you want. Smarty did have her fit and did have to be corrected. Danny said not turn her back to the dog, she has to learn while seeing the dog. I am to say very calm.

The words to let her know she is doing what you want are not be used unless she is in a controlled environment. You do not use the words unless she is doing what was asked of her. The words are to be used to reinforce good correct behavior.

Put some fun into the walk, you have a toy that is never used except for training. When all is going well you pull out the toy, let them chase the ball or do a tug of war, whatever is most appealing to your dog. I have to teach Smarty to play again on leash. With so much time of letting her go Tasmanian, wrong and not consistent corrections have taken all her fun out of the walk. I have to find something she loves this week.

Lots of activity at the house this weekend Smarty had some relapses but as a whole seemed much better with the barking and stress. The one time she would not listen she was put in her crate.

After all the guest were gone last night, both the girls seemed to be so happy. They did their RLH through the house, jumped on the back of the sofas and put their heads on my shoulders as if to say, "Finally back to normal".


----------



## luv3havs

Sandi,
Thanks for the info from today's training. I have the same problem with my dogs so I'm really interested.
Did your trainer suggest walking them separately, or is it only Smarty that has the issue?
I have found that walking them one at a time helps , but I'd really like to be able to walk them in a little pack and that's when they are the worst.

I'm going to try what your trainer did today.


----------



## SMARTY

Nan, yes I am to walk and train them separately. Galen needs more structure and does not need to be exposed to Smarty’s antics. Once all is well we will go together.


----------



## Jill in Mich

Sandi, thanks for posting your lessons and updates. I commend you for putting the time and effort into this. I'm following your posts with great interest. I get very frustrated with Cody on our walks for the same reasons you struggle with Smarty. Now I just need to find the energy to do what you're doing! Keep it up!!!


----------



## FancyNancy

It is a hard task you have set for yourself and it is wonderful to see that you are sticking with it. Smarty has a wonderful Mom and will be the best behaved and happiest dog ever very soon. Congrats!


----------



## Missy

Sandi, I am so sorry for your loss. Glad to read about Smarty's progress.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

:thumb: You are doing so well Sandi, with all you had on your plate you deserve a round of applause:clap2: I think it is great you can put the time in you need to to rehabilitate Smarty:nono: I am sure you will be so happy with the results and we are happy you are sharing with us, I think we will all take away something from this thanks to you!:clap2:


----------



## kelrobin

Sandi, I am so impressed with your diligence! I had not read this until tonight and so appreciate you sharing your experience. I think it is easy for even the best trained dogs to lapse into bad behavior when we ease up on the discipline. It reminds me of out of control toddlers who have little structure.

We just had our son's g/f's Morkie here for four nights, and he is exactly what you were describing . . . bossy, irritating, didn't mind and was not good with coming when I called. He would scratch my leg relentlessly to get what he wanted and jumps all over the furniture and beds. I could tell the situation was eroding when I couldn't even get him to sit for his food, and when I tried to work with him, he ran from me. He is so cute, but if he stayed with me for long, I would be cracking the whip on him! 

I am sorry for the loss in your family . . . sounds like the crate training started at a good time. And it inspires me to try Jackson in a crate again.


----------



## SMARTY

Day 10, new Rally Class
Both girls went to class last night different classes from 7 to10, lots and lots of dogs most were really big. Our class was at 7 but we stayed for the exposure. Galen was in the crate while Smarty got accustomed to the surroundings. Smarty did really well for her. Only a few growls and one attack mode, I corrected her by pulling her back, small leash correction, giving the “no”, quick correction and then went back to what we were doing. No lingering with the problem. Her reactions were only to one beautiful Scotty. She did give one growl/whine when Bogie and Tina came in at the end of our class. Quick correction, later she was allowed to greet Bogie. She did let him smell her… normally this is a major deal for her. Tina is a friend from the SMHC.

Galen got to investigate she caused more of a stir with the large dogs. She is the smallest, prissiest and fluffiest dog in the school. Some of the big boys really wanted to see what she was. She may end up being my competition buddy as she is so attentive and super quick with the sits and downs.

This afternoon Smarty and I go to the park alone.


----------



## ama0722

Sandi- sounds like it is going good and the best way to train is have the other one there that way if one misbehaves, get out the other dog as well


----------



## SMARTY

ama0722 said:


> Sandi- sounds like it is going good and the best way to train is have the other one there that way if one misbehaves, get out the other dog as well


 That is exactly why I took Galen. If Smarty became her Tasmanian self, Galen was going to take over. I need the class mainly to learn the signs and make sure I am doing them correctly. Galen may start a beginner obedience to get her in a class situation on Thursday nights.

It is a 50 minute drive to the class, but the best I can find for now, every Monday and Thursday. :crazy:


----------



## SMARTY

Day 11, First walk..

I am so thrilled. Smarty and my walk went almost perfect today. She passed a little no hair dog and just looked at it. A lady with a ‘pit bull type” gave us a wide path, Smarty did do a small bark and jump then came right back to me the first time we passed, the second time Smarty just looked and did nothing. This was her best walk in a very long time she knew how happy I was.


----------



## mintchip

SMARTY said:


> Day 11, First walk..
> 
> I am so thrilled. Smarty and my walk went almost perfect today. She passed a little no hair dog and just looked at it. A lady with a 'pit bull type" gave us a wide path, Smarty did do a small bark and jump then came right back to me the first time we passed, the second time Smarty just looked and did nothing. This was her best walk in a very long time she knew how happy I was.


*YEAH Sandi!!! *


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

wow it sounds like things are turning around well, you are a good teacher Sandi. I am very happy for you, Galen and of course Smarty.


----------



## krandall

SMARTY said:


> Day 11, First walk..
> 
> I am so thrilled. Smarty and my walk went almost perfect today. She passed a little no hair dog and just looked at it. A lady with a 'pit bull type" gave us a wide path, Smarty did do a small bark and jump then came right back to me the first time we passed, the second time Smarty just looked and did nothing. This was her best walk in a very long time she knew how happy I was.


Hi Sandi,

What amazing progress in 11 days!!! You AND Smarty are doing great!!!


----------



## Sheri

Wonderful! I can just imagine what a treat that walk was! You laid a very good foundation with the training you did when she was little--I bet she continues to progress very quickly. It is amazing how fast she's come this far!


----------



## LuvCicero

Sandi, give yourself a pat on the back. You have done so well in such a short time. I hope everything continues on great for Smarty!


----------



## Evye's Mom

Sandi so happy to hear of the wonderful progress that has been made in such a short period of time. I know it's a lot of hard work and tremendous dedication on your part, but it seems it has so many rewards already.


----------



## marb42

Sandi, thanks for sharing your story. I'm sorry to hear about your mother-in-law. I am working on many of the same things with Marble (and have been for a long, long time). Things have improved, but he is unreliable with certain commands and he continues to have difficulty interacting with other dogs and people when I'm around , as well as chasing things like bicycles. We go on two walks a day to work on these things. I hope that Smarty responds well to your training, and I'm really following your story with interest. Good luck


----------



## SMARTY

The only thing hard about what we are doing now is Smarty not being in my bed at night. I have rubbed, petted, and loved her at night for almost 3 years. I do believe this is probably the most significant lesson in her transformation. 

We still have a very long way to go for her to be happy in different situations. She took treats at class, but would not on the walk. Not eating is a sign of stress, when her attention is on me and a treat on her walk that will be major progress, but for now I accept the baby steps happily.


----------



## good buddy

I love hearing how well the walk went for you! I hope Smarty continues to improve for you both! 

I'm also following along eager to hear of your progress..our walk yesterday was not-so-good.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

SMARTY said:


> The only thing hard about what we are doing now is Smarty not being in my bed at night. I have rubbed, petted, and loved her at night for almost 3 years. I do believe this is probably the most significant lesson in her transformation.
> 
> We still have a very long way to go for her to be happy in different situations. She took treats at class, but would not on the walk. Not eating is a sign of stress, when her attention is on me and a treat on her walk that will be major progress, but for now I accept the baby steps happily.


I can see you are distressed by not having her in bed with you at night. Is this something that is temporary? I do hope she can progress and recapture her spot on your bed later. I am following your progress and pulling for you and Smarty all the way!And you can see many others are impressed by your determination for a better life for Smarty, even when it hurts.:frusty::thumb:


----------



## Leslie

Sandi~ I sure wish the folks here in my town who have the "crazy" dogs would be as responsible as you're being. In fact, I wish they would even just _realize_ their dogs are misbehaving and that lunging, barking wildly, and growling are NOT nice behaviors and need to be corrected :frusty:

I was walking Tori last week when we came upon a man w/his little white "something"-poo. I asked if it was dog friendly, he said yes. Well, when Tori approached to sniff, this dog almost immediately bared its teeth, growled slightly and lunged at her. The man looked at me like it was my fault (WTH???) Never corrected his dog nor apologized to me. Some people...

I am so happy to read how well the walk went. I can't commend you enough for the steps you are taking to make life so much better for Smarty, you and all she comes in contact with. :hug: :thumb:


----------



## SMARTY

Leslie said:


> I was walking Tori last week when we came upon a man w/his little white "something"-poo. I asked if it was dog friendly, he said yes. Well, when Tori approached to sniff, this dog almost immediately bared its teeth, growled :


Smarty has never bared her teeth at any dog. Once she gets to the dog she is fine and just wants to sniff, only problem is most people including me would never let "her crazy self" near their dog.


----------



## mintchip

Leslie said:


> Sandi~ I sure wish the folks here in my town who have the "crazy" dogs would be as responsible as you're being. In fact, I wish they would even just _realize_ their dogs are misbehaving and that lunging, barking wildly, and growling are NOT nice behaviors and need to be corrected :frusty:
> 
> *I was walking Tori last week when we came upon a man w/his little white "something"-poo. I asked if it was dog friendly, he said yes. Well, when Tori approached to sniff, this dog almost immediately bared its teeth, growled slightly and lunged at her. The man looked at me like it was my fault (WTH???) Never corrected his dog nor apologized to me.* Some people...
> 
> I am so happy to read how well the walk went. I can't commend you enough for the steps you are taking to make life so much better for Smarty, you and all she comes in contact with. :hug: :thumb:


I had something like that happen with Oliver about 2 years ago. The jerk's response was "Well he is always friendly with me. It must be your dogs fault?????"


----------



## marjrc

How inspiring to read how well things are going with you and Smarty, Sandi. I thank you for sharing your experiences, good and bad, and hope to do more work with my two boys as a result of them.


----------



## SMARTY

Day 14 3rd Lesson
Not our best day at all. Today Smarty was in a large field with several of Danny’s dogs.
She was totally stressed out. At first she did very well on the heel and sit but the recall was almost non existent. She only came on the short 6 feet one. When she was more then 10’ from me she would look in the other direction and as Danny said “her attitude at totally ignoring me and the situation”. An hour of her drooling, no interest at all in her Fox or treats and acting deft just about did me in. Danny said you almost never see this except in single or first dogs. They are normally the most spoiled and have the least respect for the owner. It is not that she does not love me, she just considers herself above her human companions. (I totally did this to her).


This week we are to continue the walks and rally classes. I am to put her on a long line and call her name. If she does not look at me, I’m to give a tug, once she is on the move to me, I can say a happy “come” once. Again, never give a command unless I can enforce it. If I tell her to sit, I am not to treat on the sit, but give her the “free” command and let her follow me backing up for the treat. We are adding fun and drive to her training.

Reinforce the sit, down, and stand. If she does not do it every time it is ask, she does not truly know it. 

Danny said that the reason she is so good in the classes is she is comfortable in a ring environment. She grew up in classes and shows and knows the timing on the classes and what is expected. Her stress is when she is not in control. 

General discussion: Dogs should be worked in a minimum of 4 locations, the more the better. Dog parks are wonderful in controlled situations. Always set her up to achieve never to fail. Always use a calm voice, no physical punishment. 

The really hard part: Her only food this next week is in training. If she ignores the treats she misses a meal. She can have one session a day or 10, but she gets her normal ration of food for correctly doing what is ask, at home, in classes or other locations.


----------



## marb42

Aww Sandi, I'm sorry it was such a hard day. I feel for you!:hug:


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

SMARTY said:


> Day 14 3rd Lesson
> Not our best day at all. Today Smarty was in a large field with several of Danny's dogs.
> She was totally stressed out. At first she did very well on the heel and sit but the recall was almost non existent. She only came on the short 6 feet one. When she was more then 10' from me she would look in the other direction and as Danny said "her attitude at totally ignoring me and the situation". An hour of her drooling, no interest at all in her Fox or treats and acting deft just about did me in. Danny said you almost never see this except in single or first dogs. They are normally the most spoiled and have the least respect for the owner. It is not that she does not love me, she just considers herself above her human companions. (I totally did this to her).
> 
> This week we are to continue the walks and rally classes. I am to put her on a long line and call her name. If she does not look at me, I'm to give a tug, once she is on the move to me, I can say a happy "come" once. Again, never give a command unless I can enforce it. If I tell her to sit, I am not to treat on the sit, but give her the "free" command and let her follow me backing up for the treat. We are adding fun and drive to her training.
> 
> Reinforce the sit, down, and stand. If she does not do it every time it is ask, she does not truly know it.
> 
> Danny said that the reason she is so good in the classes is she is comfortable in a ring environment. She grew up in classes and shows and knows the timing on the classes and what is expected. Her stress is when she is not in control.
> 
> General discussion: Dogs should be worked in a minimum of 4 locations, the more the better. Dog parks are wonderful in controlled situations. Always set her up to achieve never to fail. Always use a calm voice, no physical punishment.
> 
> The really hard part: Her only food this next week is in training. If she ignores the treats she misses a meal. She can have one session a day or 10, but she gets her normal ration of food for correctly doing what is ask, at home, in classes or other locations.


I am trying to stay off the forum Sandi, but had to answer this if only to encourage you and tell you how much I admire your tenacity. It is great that you know you are doing the correct thing and that your pain now will be your joy when this is completed. It must be so difficult for you to stick to your guns, I just hope each day gets easier for you. It surely shows how much you love Smarty..:thumb::thumb:


----------



## SMARTY

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> I am trying to stay off the forum Sandi, but had to answer this if only to encourage you and tell you how much I admire your tenacity. It is great that you know you are doing the correct thing and that your pain now will be your joy when this is completed. It must be so difficult for you to stick to your guns, I just hope each day gets easier for you. It surely shows how much you love Smarty..:thumb::thumb:


Why are you staying off the Forum? Time for new puppy?


----------



## SMARTY

Some of you will love this. Dear Husband thought the new training method was perfect, even went so far as to think we should do the same. He gets to eat when he has done something I want done, and I get to eat when I do what he wants......is he crazy or what?


----------



## marjrc

Hey Sandi, if hubby is willing to eat his meals under those conditions, I say go for it!! LOL

I'm sure there are many times when it's tough to stick with 'the program' when you see Smarty stressing out. Your trainer sounds awesome and I know that, for me, I'd have a hard time sticking with it w/o someone showing me how and encouraging me along the way. 

Good luck with the new tools!


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

SMARTY said:


> Some of you will love this. Dear Husband thought the new training method was perfect, even went so far as to think we should do the same. He gets to eat when he has done something I want done, and I get to eat when I do what he wants......is he crazy or what?


Don't know Sandi, it kinda makes sense!! This forum makes you crazy for a puppy!!:doh:


----------



## mintchip

SMARTY said:


> Some of you will love this. Dear Husband thought the new training method was perfect, even went so far as to think we should do the same. He gets to eat when he has done something I want done, and I get to eat when I do what he wants......is he *crazy* or what?


LOL Sandi


----------



## Leslie

Wonder if I could get my DH to go along w/that new training method??? :biggrin1:


----------



## irnfit

SMARTY said:


> Some of you will love this. Dear Husband thought the new training method was perfect, even went so far as to think we should do the same. He gets to eat when he has done something I want done, and I get to eat when I do what he wants......is he crazy or what?


I guess I would never get to eat. :biggrin1:


----------



## SMARTY

Something I forgot to add from this week’s lesson was giving your dog a message. For now have them lay on their side, do slow small circles from the head to the base of the tail. Keep their head down, once they are relaxed do their legs and other side. Other than a relaxing experience for your dog, this is a tool to use when they get stressed.


----------



## SMARTY

irnfit said:


> I guess I would never get to eat. :biggrin1:


Me neither, I would not want to be doing what he would want all the time.


----------



## Scooter's Family

SMARTY said:


> Something I forgot to add from this week's lesson was giving your dog a message. For now have them lay on their side, do slow small circles from the head to the base of the tail. Keep their head down, once they are relaxed do their legs and other side. Other than a relaxing experience for your dog, this is a tool to use when they get stressed.


Works for me too, I think I'll go schedule a massage!:biggrin1:


----------



## gelbergirl

Sandi - you are working so hard, I am so impressed.
Hope it is all going well.


----------



## SMARTY

Day 17 Ralley Class Update

Monday's Rally class was one of Smarty's best. We had one very short growl at the same little Scottie, a quick short correction then she was fine. She is not as fast in class to her commands but she is doing them. We still are working on more play, putting some fun back into everything. At home the fun is there in class she is preoccupied with the other dogs.

Every year I take my DGD on Spring break, this year Smarty has to stay home. In fact I was told a good boarding kennel would do her a world of good, because "safe change is very good for dogs. The more experiences the better." I am not going that far, she will stay with Danny or home with DH. Danny would be best for continued training but I would be a nervous wreck the whole time, spoiling our get away. Danny and I will talk more about this on Friday.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

SMARTY said:


> Day 17 Ralley Class Update
> 
> Monday's Rally class was one of Smarty's best. We had one very short growl at the same little Scottie, a quick short correction then she was fine. She is not as fast in class to her commands but she is doing them. We still are working on more play, putting some fun back into everything. At home the fun is there in class she is preoccupied with the other dogs.
> 
> Every year I take my DGD on Spring break, this year Smarty has to stay home. In fact I was told a good boarding kennel would do her a world of good, because "safe change is very good for dogs. The more experiences the better." I am not going that far, she will stay with Danny or home with DH. Danny would be best for continued training but I would be a nervous wreck the whole time, spoiling our get away. Danny and I will talk more about this on Friday.


Wow, are you ever determined and doing the right thing for Smarty. I appreciate how you are dedicated to giving Smarty and you the best life!!! You GO Girl!!


----------



## good buddy

I'm glad to hear Smarty did much better at the Rally class.  Is she showing consistant improvement on her walks too?


----------



## SMARTY

good buddy said:


> I'm glad to hear Smarty did much better at the Rally class.  Is she showing consistant improvement on her walks too?


We have not been able to do walks every day, but she is doing much better. In fact, last night she just looked as we passed the few dogs that were on the trails.


----------



## kelrobin

Sandi, I will be really curious about what Danny says about boarding. We have never boarded Jackson, but I do think the right environment might be good for them. I also think it helps if they have a buddy to board with (you at least have two!) We are getting ready to lose all our places where Jackson has been comfortable (son moving, another doggie friend moving, house sitter in college, etc.) and I am a wreck! We have to find a new "safe" place like he mentioned that works. I will be following what he recommends. He sounds like a wizard.


----------



## good buddy

SMARTY said:


> We have not been able to do walks every day, but she is doing much better. In fact, last night she just looked as we passed the few dogs that were on the trails.


That's wonderful news.  I'm glad to hear your work is paying off. I have my little Rottie (Marley) in classes right now--he's excelling, really has the teacher snowed. :suspicious: I asked her to meet me out on the dam where I walk the dogs to work on his passing other dogs behavior. She'll be bringing a couple German Sheperds. I sure hope I can get the good results you're seeing.


----------



## krandall

Hi Sandi,

It has been interesting reading about Smarty's progress, and it has also made me pay close attention to some things with Kodi that I might not have noticed if you hadn't started this thread. At 10 1/2 months, he's a "teenager" and trying new behaviors.

One that I've noticed is that, lately, when he's off lead in the woods, he will going running up to a stranger like he's friendly, but if they step toward him with a hand out, he backs off and barks at them. Up until now, I've just told the person that he's friendly, (he really is) and then I've gone up to the person, and given them a treat to hand him. After that, he's all buddy - buddy. Now, I'm wondering if I was reinforcing the barking with this technique. Another problem with this is that we occasionally encounter someone with a small child who is intimidated by his barking, and we can't get to the "making friends" part, because the child is already upset.

So the last couple of times I've been out with him, I've called him back to me (fortunately, he's got a great recall!) and put him back on leash so we approach the stranger together. That way he doesn't bark because I'm right with him, and I can ask the people to feed him BEFORE he causes a ruckus and gets the idea that he can demand things of people.<g>

I think it was because of you posting about Smarty, and how well trained she was in the ring, but then she still developed these "real life" problems that I started paying closer attention to what Kodi does in other settings. I don't KNOW that his behavior would have morphed into something more aggressive, but I figure it's a lot easier to redirect now, before it's a set pattern of behavior than it would be to retrain later.

So, thank you!!!


----------



## SMARTY

kelrobin said:


> Sandi, I will be really curious about what Danny says about boarding. We have never boarded Jackson, but I do think the right environment might be good for them. I also think it helps if they have a buddy to board with (you at least have two!) We are getting ready to lose all our places where Jackson has been comfortable (son moving, another doggie friend moving, house sitter in college, etc.) and I am a wreck! We have to find a new "safe" place like he mentioned that works. I will be following what he recommends. He sounds like a wizard.


Danny is the one that suggested boarding her rather than taking her with me. He thinks the separation and different environment will be good for her. "The more experiences the better" so he says.


----------



## SMARTY

Karen, Danny has said many times if you would not have let your Boxers do it why let Smarty do it. Manners and behavior are the same no matter the size of the dog. His Sheltie, German Sheppard, Pit Bull, Boston, etc are all treated and trained the same. If it is not appropriate for one size it is not appropriate for any size dog, no matter how cute or little.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Whewww, your Danny sounds really good and makes sense too!!


----------



## krandall

I understand what you're saying in the context of this conversation, but remember this is my first dog... so I have to be extra vigilant about those little things. I purposely chose a "soft" breed because I didn't have any experience training a dog, (lots of horses, no dogs) but I can see how it could still be easy to let little things that are easily corrected when they are young turn into big problems later on.


----------



## SMARTY

Day 21 4th lesson

Large field 4 additional dogs, thing went pretty good on leash as far as sits, downs, recalls and heeling. But off leash her recalls were still very slow then not at all. We worked all week on happy recalls, running to me, getting lots of praise and goodies but in reality when in a different outdoor, no ring environment she just kissed me off and was doing what she wanted. She will now be worked on a long line, not at home but a different location every day.

For anyone wondering about the extra dogs Danny is using them because of Smarty’s anxiety and stress (drooling). She is to learn that the other dogs will not harm her. This is a confidence builder for her.

Now the real biggie, between now and Sunday morning I have to decide whether to let Danny have her for the time I am gone with my GD. I had decided not to take the girls and was going to leave them with DH, Buddy. In this lesson Danny tried to work her and her attention was totally on me, anyone who has ever been around Smarty knows she is my dog and could care less about anyone else even DH. This apparently is not good. This is not a well balanced dog. Danny will take her to all appointments with other clients. She will ride in a crate in a van, live in his house with all these other dogs, big and small. He assures me he has not lost a dog or had a dog hurt and she will be fine. DH says do it, because Galen is so easy to live with. 

A real dilemma for me, I really have no idea what I am going to do. I trust Danny but this is my Smarty. I really wish I wanted no more than a house dog that never went any where then she would be perfect.


----------



## luv3havs

Sandi,
I think Smarty will be fine with Danny.The change may be very good for her.
Try to relax and have a good time.
Smarty will cover you with kisses when you return.
In the meantime she'll gain more confidence being able to"live without you" for a few days.


----------



## Evye's Mom

I feel so bad for your turmoil leaving Smarty with Danny versus DH. Would it be so terrible to let her stay with DH for this first time anyway? So much going on and so many changes in her life (and yours). I'm just wondering if a little familarity while you're gone would be comforting to both you and Smarty. Or could that jeaporidize all the progress that has been accomplished? I would love for you to have a good time with your G-daughter and be able to know Smarty is happy and okay (regardless).


----------



## SMARTY

Evye's Mom said:


> I feel so bad for your turmoil leaving Smarty with Danny versus DH. Would it be so terrible to let her stay with DH for this first time anyway? So much going on and so many changes in her life (and yours). I'm just wondering if a little familarity while you're gone would be comforting to both you and Smarty. Or could that jeaporidize all the progress that has been accomplished? I would love for you to have a good time with your G-daughter and be able to know Smarty is happy and okay (regardless).


Your train of thought is running right with me. I probably would have a better time with her home with Buddy but know I will never let go if I am home.


----------



## FancyNancy

I know you dont know me and maybe I am being a but-insky, but I vote for leaving Smarty with Danny. Danny sounds great. if it were me I would jump at the chance to further Smarty's training and balance in such a safe, easy way. If I didnt have my own "danny" here, I would want him to move near me!!! Best of luck and enjoy your time away.


----------



## Evye's Mom

To every advantage there is a disadvantage and vise versa.

We love our significant others, our children, our G-children and our dogs. I am not very good at it but I am trying to find the balance and it's not easy. Do whatever feels comfortable for you so you can go away with your little one and feel at ease. Probably no right or wrong answer. Whatever you decide, I hope you have a wonderful time and enjoy yourself. Life will continue as usual when you return. (Uggh...more easily said than done).


----------



## ama0722

Sandi, I am glad you are making progress. I think the rule of thumb giving about it isn't appropriate no matter what size is a good one. I too think people with little dogs let them get away with a lot more (I am guilty of this especially with jumping!)

As to your time away. Could you balance it half and half? Smarty stays with Danny for 3 days and then comes back home. While it may be good for Smarty, I know it can be bad on you stress wise as well. However, it might be wonderful to "speed up" her progress as well which would be great for you  

Great job on the progress thus far. Tonight I took Isabelle out off leash and walked down the road to the neighbors, you know how you guys saw a different dog while alone at the playdate. Belle normally terrorizes this neighbors dog. Without a leash and without her pack, boy did she back down. Funny how their little minds work!


----------



## The Laughing Magpie

Sandi, At the end of the day it really depends on how you feel. You will not have a good trip if you are not comfortable. Take a breath if in the end you are not ready there will always be another opportunity. It is not about trusting Danny, it is your comfort zone. It is hard to let go. Do it if you are ready.


----------



## SMARTY

Smarty gets a 2 day reprieve from going to Danny's we had to change plans for spring break, rearrange the dates, another friend passed away, this is our third memorial service in as many weeks. I hope this is the end of the threes. (thank you no condolences are needed).

I was almost ready to let her stay with him now this. Back to rethinking everything.

The 30 foot line is getting her attention. She is allowed to have free play, then I call and she is giving the tug. If the rain stops I may take her to the park later this afternoon with the long line.
I bought this line from Danny, I had looked on line and in our local pet stores and couldn't find any that were light weight and not cotton. His come for Hungary, Bende is the brand http://www.bende.hu/index2.html. Our leash is the top one in the 9/1 design, color red & beige, 30 feet. From the site I couldn't tell how you would order. My charge was $22 from Danny which I thought was a very good price for this quality.


----------



## SMARTY

sorry, posted twice. deleted.


----------



## Missy

Sandi, I just wanted to pop in to say thank you for sharing this. Danny sounds like a gem, and I am glad you found each other. even though you said I don't have to, I am sorry for your loss. you have been through a lot lately. Hugs.


----------



## Evye's Mom

Missy said:


> Sandi, I just wanted to pop in to say thank you for sharing this. Danny sounds like a gem, and I am glad you found each other. even though you said I don't have to, I am sorry for your loss. you have been through a lot lately. Hugs.


I second that. A lot of turmoil going on and you just hang in there like a trooper and seem to balance it all so well. Many hugs and well wishes from me too.


----------



## Me&2Girls

Hi Sandi, I haven't read the entire thread, but I really understand the indecision that your are facing. I've trained a lot of dogs - perhaps as many as a dozen - from puppies and older rescues to purebreds and Heinz 57 varieties. What stood out to me about your situation with Smarty was that Danny may have identified something extremely important for you to consider. 

He seems to sense that Smarty won't progress any further unless what you've taught her can now be generalized to different handlers. In the dog training world I believe this is called "proofing." It's critical that Smarty respond to any handler (your family, a trainer, a groomer, etc.). This makes her happy and safe in many different situations just in case you can't always be on the other end of the lead.

So I'd think about sending her to live with Danny for the next stage of her training. I know it's hard, but in the end, it may be the most loving and caring thing that you can do for her.

Hugs!


----------



## SMARTY

Me&2Girls;323945 Danny may have identified something extremely important for you to consider.
He seems to sense that Smarty won't progress any further unless what you've taught her can now be generalized to different handlers. In the dog training world I believe this is called "proofing." It's critical that Smarty respond to any handler (your family said:


> Lisa, you are correct. She does need to respond to others. She has always been totally attached to me, I decided to let her go when I am in town. That way Danny said I can observe her training with other dogs from afar if I want.


----------



## SMARTY

Days 24 through 30

Last Monday, day 23, Rally class was awful. Smarty was not paying attention, she was going after all the dogs, just a total mess. The decision was made that she was going to Danny’s early Tuesday morning when GD and I left for Florida. This was extremely hard for me, Smarty looked so little and lost when I handed her to Danny. He said not to call until that night and I did. My report was this: “She sat by the back door for 2 hours trying to get out! Then she jumped up on the back of his sofa and tried to escape through a window. She growled and snarled at his dogs (8 of them! O Lord, what if one of those 100 lb dogs does not think she is worth living), she is drooling to the point her entire front is soaked. She went to 2 lessons and a walk in the park with 4 other dogs. As long as she was on the leash walking she was fine. …. Change is good for them she has to go though this to learn. No one is hurting her she is making these decisions on her own. The 2 of you are too attached. She needs to learn to be a dog for her own piece of mind. 

Day 2 with Danny, “she is a little better, she has stopped growling at the other dogs, but is still drooling.” She is perfect on all her commands and recalls. She was loose (!) on a long line in the park while he was with other clients. “Don’t worry so much, I haven’t lost a dog, yet!”. (This is no laughing matter to me.) She ate today.

Day 3 pretty much the same. Day 4 the drooling is less. I’m picking her up on Saturday, day 5. No drooling. I can not pick her up or pet her while she is so excited to see me. She is doing flips to get to me. This is so hard. Once she is calm I can go down to her level to pet her. She smells like a dog. She has ate and slept with every thing from German Shepherds to a French Bulldog. No scars, her hair is all their, she made it. 

My instructions: 
1. She can not come to me and demand attention. I can only give it when she is calm and at my instigation. 
2. She is to be given a “place” to go. She is to stay there until released.
3. She is to have no less than a 2 mile brisk walk a day. 
4. I am to stay calm and be the leader. No jerks, fast action, no loud voice and no panic ever. I am to be in total control at all times.
5. Play with her. Make life fun, not all work and worry.

At home, she panted more than I had ever seen. Hopefully it is the heat wave. When she had her bath she was perfect in the comb and blow out. Probably the best she has ever been. She waits by the door in a sit before going out. The frenzies when we return is less, she is waiting to be petted. She was wonderful on her walk yesterday but we didn’t meet any other dogs (Easter). We are to meet Danny today at the park at 5 to walk before she goes to her Rally class at 7:00. Oh, one other thing, Danny said to make sure she or any dog is tired or has their energy released before trying to work or teaching them. Taking her to class full of energy is unfair to her.

PS, my dear GD told everyone at Easter Dinner if you want to ruin a Florida vacation, let “Meme” leave Smarty with a trainer. I was a mess.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Sandi, I don't know how you are doing this, except you have Smarty's best interest above your own comfort level. You are truly loving her by what you are doing. I would be a basket case too, but I know you will look back and say you have done the right things for her! Hugs and Love


----------



## Sheri

Sandi, I can read between the lines as to how incredibly hard this was for you, and it took a lot of love and guts for you to do it. Smarty needs it, and it's very commendable that you were able to make yourself do it for her! 

This is so interesting to read, and such a good lesson to others of us.


----------



## Evye's Mom

You are truly to be admired. You did it !! and both you and Smarty survived. I know it must have been so uncomfortable for you but it really sounds like Smarty came out of it the better. Hopefully next year you and GD will be able to go away for your spring break and enjoy it all....and missing the dogs will be the only drawback. Congrats !!


----------



## krandall

Sandi,

I think the other good thing you saw is how much of this IS a problem with Smarty, and not just "handler error". In a way, it would have been very frustrating to hear she was perfect from the word go when she got to Danny's.

I see so many poorly behaved and clearly unhappy dogs as pets that people just sort of roll their eyes and say "that's how s/he is..." My hat is really off to you for putting this time, effort, heart and soul (let alone nervous energy!!!) into your girl!

Danny's comment about getting the dogs to blow off steam before they have to work brought a grin to my face. Last week (when we were in the midst of the multiple day flooding conditions we had in eastern MA (5-7" of rain EACH day for several days)) There was no way, even with a rain coat, that I could get Kodi out for walks... he wasn't even going out to potty, just using his litter box. When we went to Rally run-thoughs on Wed., he was totally crazed. I knew WHY, but taking him to class was the only way I had of letting him work off some energy. It was a small group, so rather than the usual 2 runs we do, we each did a 3rd run, and by that time he nailed it.<g>

On Thursday afternoon, the rain had finally slowed to a drizzle, but the ground was completely under water... you had to wade through the grass. I decided I just HAD to get him out, but the streets were totally underwater, so I just stayed on our property. Usually I don't need to have him on leash on our property, but he was so nuts I had no confidence that he'd listen to me. So I put him on the flexi, and took him out that way. It was just like lunging a horse. He went out to the end of the flexi, and just ran around me in circles for close to 10 minutes at top speed. He wasn't pulling, he wasn't going in different directions, he just wanted to run.

I thought, that's EXACTLY what I need to be able to burn off excess energy quickly. I think I'm going to look into one of those lure things on a stick, and see if I can get him to chase that when I need to take the edge off quickly, or on a rainy day when we have class.


----------



## SMARTY

This has been very hard for me. Smarty is one of the loves of my life, but loving her so much has been part of the problem. I was transmitting a different energy level than what she needed. 

We always lunged the horses before we trained or rode them. Working with dogs is the same. I remember a time in a trail class with one of the Appaloosas they balked at a bridge and off my daughter came, not expecting this fast movement. It took 6 months for her to approach a bridge without tensing and the horses knew it. Once she regained her confidence none of the horses balked or hesitated. Same thing with dogs, they read the body language before we even realize we are doing it.

It is strange that I've had so many dogs, done many different types of training and never had an issue before. Smarty is the first dog ever in our bed, on the furniture and probably the most brilliant. Even Danny said he is amazed at how fast she catches on. I have treated her more like a little person than a dog which has not been good for her.


----------



## krandall

SMARTY said:


> It is strange that I've had so many dogs, done many different types of training and never had an issue before. Smarty is the first dog ever in our bed, on the furniture and probably the most brilliant. Even Danny said he is amazed at how fast she catches on. I have treated her more like a litter person than a dog which has not been good for her.


I think the more we love them, the greater the possibility that we let our feelings rule our heads, and the easier it is to fall into training traps. I think it's easier to train other people's kids, horse and dogs because emotions don't get in the way, and you don't second-guess yourself all the time!


----------



## Me&2Girls

Sandi, I'm just so impressed by the commitment you've made to Smarty. I know how hard it must have been, but boy, has your heartache and indecision paid off. Sending Smarty to live with Danny for the training must have been a heart wrenching decision, but wow, what results.

Please don't blame yourself for loving your dog and not being the "perfect trainer." You aren't an automaton. How could you not treat Smarty like a little person? She's part of your family. Too smart for her own britches, but that's what makes her Smarty.

Congratulations and best to both of you as you move forward.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

I love this comment, Sandi it is so true she is too smart!! Glad you are strong and encouraging all of us!


----------



## SMARTY

Day 31 Park and Rally Class

Danny and I met at the park at 5:00 P.M. He brought a Belgian Malinois 5 month old puppy just starting training. We walked 2 miles, meeting 6 or 7 dogs on each mile section. Smarty did react to the first dog, was given a “leave it” command, leash correction and we continued walking. As each of the other dogs approached she was given a “leave it” when she made eye contact as the dogs were approaching. I am never to wait until she acts, she is to be given the command before “Always stay in front of your dog’s actions, pay attention to their intention”. The command was repeated until we were past the dog and then she was praised and given a treat. The fact that she took the treat is also a big change. In the past she never took treats at the park or in classes. Stressed dogs do not take treats.

We met two large dogs walking together with what looked to be a mother and a daughter. Both dogs were out front practically dragging their handlers, both approached with hackles raised. We stepped to the side and when they passed Danny said “Whoever controls the front space controls the walk.” 

At 6:00, I left for my 7:00 Rally class. I have to say Smarty was close to perfect. Not in all the exercises and execution of the signs but her attitude towards the other dogs and responses. Not one drop of drooling. This is major for her. One person asks if I had drugged her because of the change from last week to this week. I told her no, it was a visit to the “Danny You Are a Dog Camp”. For the first time ever she finished her treat bag.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

SMARTY said:


> Day 31 Park and Rally Class
> 
> Danny and I met at the park at 5:00 P.M. He brought a Belgian Malinois 5 month old puppy just starting training. We walked 2 miles, meeting 6 or 7 dogs on each mile section. Smarty did react to the first dog, was given a "leave it" command, leash correction and we continued walking. As each of the other dogs approached she was given a "leave it" when she made eye contact as the dogs were approaching. I am never to wait until she acts, she is to be given the command before "Always stay in front of your dog's actions, pay attention to their intention". The command was repeated until we were past the dog and then she was praised and given a treat. The fact that she took the treat is also a big change. In the past she never took treats at the park or in classes. Stressed dogs do not take treats.
> 
> We met two large dogs walking together with what looked to be a mother and a daughter. Both dogs were out front practically dragging their handlers, both approached with hackles raised. We stepped to the side and when they passed Danny said "Whoever controls the front space controls the walk."
> 
> At 6:00, I left for my 7:00 Rally class. I have to say Smarty was close to perfect. Not in all the exercises and execution of the signs but her attitude towards the other dogs and responses. Not one drop of drooling. This is major for her. One person asks if I had drugged her because of the change from last week to this week. I told her no, it was a visit to the "Danny You Are a Dog Camp". For the first time ever she finished her treat bag.


Whoooohooo! Wonderful news Sandi. I know you are relieved to see progress that is measured. So good to hear. Everyone is waiting anxiously for the next bit of news. This is better than the Dog Whisperer!! Thanks for sharing. I am so happy for you and Smarty:whoo:


----------



## Scooter's Family

I'm in awe of you. Sounds like you're doing tough love, and it's called that for a reason, it is tough. So easy for these sweet, cute, little dogs to manipulate us into doing things that aren't quite right for them. I admire your courage in working through such a difficult time for yourself and Smarty. :hug:


----------



## SMARTY

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> Whoooohooo! Wonderful news Sandi. I know you are relieved to see progress that is measured. So good to hear. Everyone is waiting anxiously for the next bit of news. *This is better than the Dog Whisperer!! * Thanks for sharing. I am so happy for you and Smarty:whoo:


Flynn, you would be surprised how many times I've thought the same thing.


----------



## SMARTY

Scooter's Family said:


> I'm in awe of you. Sounds like you're doing tough love, and it's called that for a reason, it is tough. So easy for these sweet, cute, little dogs to manipulate us into doing things that aren't quite right for them. I admire your courage in working through such a difficult time for yourself and Smarty. :hug:


Thanks, Ann. It was really tough love last week, but we are beginning to see results. Many of the things I knew to do had to be reinforced, the way Danny says them makes sense, that's why I try to quote some of his sayings.


----------



## ama0722

Sounds like great progress already! I am really glad you are sharing this publically as well for anyone else having some issues that feels overwhelmed by them.

I took the pups all to Dasher's agility class and everyone was talking about how well behaved little dogs are far and few between. I do tend to agree with them. I tend to allow my dogs to visit more with bigger dogs being walked cause I dont trust too many little dogs! Owners tend to allow them to get away with way more than they should. My own instructor's mother has created a monster of her little dog and she has been using my dogs to help her get over her dog fears so it has been interesting to watch. The dog either is fearful (drooling) or snapping (usually when it's owner is handling it!) 

I am still guilty of allowing somethings I should not but it is a good reminder that they have the same dog needs and mental and physical exercise is one of the biggest.


----------



## Leslie

Sandi, you're my hero! What you are doing for Smarty is nothing short of phenomenal, in my book. I don't know if I could do what you're doing if I were in your shoes. I have no problem dishing out "tough love" to my kids/students/grandkids, etc. But, doing it w/Tori is another matter...

I love this quote, "...pay attention to their intention” If we do that, many things would never become problems to be dealt with. Danny is wise, indeed.

Another thing that popped out to me in your "Day 31" post, is "Stressed dogs do not take treats." My Tori will often not take treats when we're out and about. I know she prefers to be a "homebody" but, I do take her to many places. Interestingly, when I get out her leash and ask her if she wants to go bye-bye, she will often put her head down and just sit. Or, sometimes, she will actually try to hide under a table, chair, etc. Once we're out the door, though, she usually perks up and seems happy to be going. I've just chalked-up this behavior to her not liking the harness being put over her head. Although she doesn't drool (except at the dog park) or show any outward signs of being stressed, she will almost never take treats from strangers and will only take them occasionally from me when we're out. Needless to say, you've got me thinking and I will definitely be watching for other signs of stress from her (lip licking, yawning, etc.)

Thank you so much for sharing with us step-by-step. As you see, not only are you helping Smarty, you're helping others as well. :hug:


----------



## Luciledodd

I don't mean to steal your thread; but will chime in also. I made a mistake with Rosie from the beginning. I treated her like a baby instead of the dog she is. I fell into the myth that Havanese were different. Well they are not. Rosie is learning to be a dog now also. I am putting her outside by herself for longer periods of time and making her mind. She is broken from tearing up paper--all puppies do that and most are taught not to. Well Rosie knows not to anymore. I'm not letting her get in chairs unless invited, etc. We never know how bad our children and pets are spoiled until we have company or are sick. Keep up the good work.


----------



## FancyNancy

I have been reading this thread like you would read a good novel. It is a page turner! Everyday I look to see how Smarty and Sandi are doing and I love seeing the progress you are making. Every once in awhile I can't help myself and I chime in. I was so happy when you decided to leave Smarty with Danny. I was rooting for that. I love the quotes from Danny too. Your story has so many lessons for all of us with dogs that are our babies. Thank you for sharing so openly and honestly. You are an inspiration.


----------



## mintchip

ama0722 said:


> Sounds like great progress already! I am really glad you are sharing this publically as well for anyone else having some issues that feels overwhelmed by them.
> 
> I took the pups all to Dasher's agility class and everyone was talking about how well behaved little dogs are far and few between. I do tend to agree with them. I tend to allow my dogs to visit more with bigger dogs being walked cause I dont trust too many little dogs! Owners tend to allow them to get away with way more than they should. My own instructor's mother has created a monster of her little dog and she has been using my dogs to help her get over her dog fears so it has been interesting to watch. The dog either is fearful (drooling) or snapping (usually when it's owner is handling it!)
> 
> I am still guilty of allowing somethings I should not but it is *a good reminder that they have the same dog needs and mental and physical exercise is one of the biggest.*


So many people just want "purse dogs" --let them get stuff animals!
I've had people ask me if I got a little dog so I wouldn't have to walk them etc. :suspicious:


----------



## SMARTY

Thank you everyone I appreciate your comments and encouragement. I started this as a diary or journal so it would make me accountable and make me continue. I have been known to start something and not follow through. By posting each lesson and stage I hope others will benefit. 

Amanda, it is so true that most of us let these little fellow get away with things a large dog would be put to sleep for. Smarty's attitude towards other dogs on leash would have been considered vicious if she weighed 50 lbs. I would have never tolerated this with a Boxer and never had one that even considered acting this way.

Leslie, the drooling is a sign of stress and fear, but many dogs have the same issues without the symptoms. From what I have learned if a dog eagerly takes treats at home but doesn’t in other situations it probably is a sign of stress. I doubt many dogs get the exposure Smarty was given, puppy kindergarten at 3 months, conformation shows, agility before a year, she went almost everywhere I went from Lowe’s to California. Danny has said many times “Exposure is very good for them, they need change, but leadership is the most important. Dogs do not want to be leaders, but if you do not lead they will. And this makes a very unstable situation for them”. My only issue at home was her behavior when someone was at the door. Again if she had weighted 50 lbs this would have been a nightmare. I never really considered the “leader” as the issue even as many times as I have seen Cesar Millan’s show because she was so good, now I know when she left home or other dogs were around she was out of her element and not in control, this is when the stress and aggression would show. 

Lucile, you will never steal a thread by commenting we need and want each others comments.

Nancy, thank you


----------



## SMARTY

Edited.....double post, anyone else having this problem.


----------



## marjrc

I've had a couple of double posts too, Sandi. 

I had tears in my eyes reading your latest posts. It would have been so very hard for me too, listening to Danny describe Smarty's behavior at his 'camp'. He sounds very smart, intuitive and a good teacher. I know many things are hard to do, hard to see, but you sound stronger than you did back in the beginning of all this training with Smarty, Sandi. She is benefiting from it all too, since you can now see that she's less stressed going out and around other dogs. It's all good! 

You inspire so many of us to stop being wimps about training our dogs and to remember to keep on top of things once in a while. We fall into lazy patterns... at least I do ! lol


----------



## SMARTY

marjrc said:


> .....I had tears in my eyes reading your latest posts. It would have been so very hard for me too, listening to Danny describe Smarty's behavior at his 'camp'. He sounds very smart, intuitive and a good teacher. I know many things are hard to do, hard to see, but you sound stronger than you did back in the beginning of all this training with Smarty, Sandi. She is benefiting from it all too, since you can now see that she's less stressed going out and around other dogs. It's all good!
> 
> You inspire so many of us to stop being wimps about training our dogs and to remember to keep on top of things once in a while. We fall into lazy patterns... at least I do ! lol


Thank you Marj. Last week was very hard for me but we are making progress. As I said before using this as a journal I have to continue my forum friends will keep me accountable.


----------



## SMARTY

*Day 36, 5th Lesson*

This has been a very good week up to point. Smarty has been wonderful at the park, no issues at all with other dogs. We are still using the "Leave It" the second we see approaching dogs and continue through until we are past the dogs. I give a lot of praise when we are past them. I've started putting a leash on her if I know anyone is coming to the house. This way I can get in the window and door corrections if she does not stop her barking. "All dogs are to be allowed to warn you of approaching strangers to your home but the minute you tell them quiet, they should respect that they have done their job and you are taking over." Smarty and I have not quite mastered this and now little Galen wants to join in the barking.

We changed our lesson with Danny until today. We met with 2 Chihuahuas one long haired, one short haired, a brother and sister. These are totally out of control dogs, barking, lunging, and growling. There was also the little French Bulldog from Danny's Camp and an 8 month old Airedale puppy that is a sweetie. Smarty took and instant dislike to the long haired Chihuahua. We could not get within 15 feet of it for Smarty to go berserk. She was so intent on getting to this little dog Danny put a Dogdra collar on her. He let me feel the vibration in my palm and on my harm. This is a form of the E collars, I don't like this method but she would not take her eyes off this dog. Danny calls the Dogdra collars "stimulus collars". It was a vibration on my skin and not a shock at all. It took 2 times before Smarty decided she did not want to go for the Chihuahua again. She walked into the face of and around all the dogs. She let them walk into her face and around her, even her little enemy.

You need to know Danny is certified and has gone to several schools in different states to use and train with the Dogdra Collars. Most people using the E type collars are not certified.

I though for sure Smarty's actions had turned the Chihuahua's owners off completely but it was the opposite. The lady said she was ready to give the dogs away, she and her husband's life is miserable with them, but after see saw how Smarty reacted she ask Danny if he would take their dogs and train them to the Dogdra Collars, rather than the dogs living at home and only getting worse. Danny said he would train them first to be walked properly on the leash and the collars they had. The Stimulus Collars are only to be used correctly not as a solution to all problems. They are only as good as the hands that use them.

I was really disappointed with Smarty's reaction to the little dog but Danny said this is a process, no quick fix for problems that have been there for a while. It is a bad learned behavior that we are correcting. There are usually regressions in issues like these and sometimes you see a huge regression before you see the light and a true turn around. We will see what this week brings. We are making progress from all approaching dogs to one little Chihuahua.

No drooling at all this week.

Smarty's Rally lessons are going really well. She has her first shows next Thursday through Sunday. We may not be ready but it is something to do with hundreds of dogs. This is a huge show weekend in Perry GA with lots to see and do all four days.


----------



## SMARTY

Day 38....... I'm ready to pull my hair out.....

As my mother used to say “I’m ready to pull my hair out” I never really knew what that meant until tonight. Smarty has been letter perfect since she had her encounter with the correction collar. Not one growl, snarl or lunge at the park or at Petsmart, then tonight at Rally training class she was back to the Tasmanian devil routine with the little Scottie, no other dogs just the Scottie. We did the 2 mile walk before leaving home at the parK, she met probably 6 dogs, no reaction at all then drove an hour to class and disaster. Not once but just about every time she make any eye contact with this little dog. 

I forgot my cell phone so I didn’t call Danny on my way home, but I am so disappointed in her actions I thought about not going to the show this week, but I will even if I pull her from competition. Little Galen will benefit from the experience.


----------



## Evye's Mom

Sandi, that was my mother's favorite expression also. Except I knew exactly what she meant. I was my mother's Smarty. I'm sorry you had a disappointing evening. One step forward, two steps back but progress is never lost.


----------



## Luciledodd

You know you are probably taking this to hard. Smarty is a dog first and foremost. We all get caught up in them being our babies; but they are dogs. Don't get upset, you are doing great, Smarty is coming along. Get rid of all your guilt and you will feel better. Contrary to what is the myth that the Havanese can't take being treated agressively, they can. Rosie gets yelled at occassionaly and she does just fine. Sometimes she talks back to me and I have to laugh though. Keep up the good work.


----------



## ama0722

Sandi- set backs happen so don't be discouraged. Isabelle has her "set off" dog breeds. To this day, any shelties (even calm timid ones) get her going. I was brave and took her to sheltie grounds (aka agility trial) and she did pretty well on Saturday. Usually this is not fun. If they came any where towards her crate, she went off though. She can spot them a mile away and is ready to kick sheltie butt. If I have her out and see one near us, I immediately get her attention the entire time. I made the mistake of letting her play with a friends dog when she was younger and it became pretty aggressive play and to this day, she HATES shelties!


----------



## good buddy

Hang in there Sandi! I know how frustrating it is just when they seem to be making progress and then the behavior shows up again. Arg! I've been going through that here too. I'm working on getting our walking down smooth with the boys. Rufus gets excited to see other dogs because he wants to play, but Marley goes way over the top. He was becomming excited, then he was barking, started pulling and then the lunging...gradually over time it escalated until he added biting.  He would snap at Rufus or even my ankles as I tried to get him under control. I've had to stop walking the dogs together and walk both of them separately for some time now. Rufus has been easy to work with but Marley required calling in a trainer. 

Before getting personal instruction, I enrolled Marley in a small breed class, thinking he just needed more exposure to other dogs. To my surprise, Marley aced the class and was often used as the class example lol! He did everything I asked of him picture perfect listening intently and being a star student. He had no problem with any of the dogs in class and was happy to be there. I spoke with the instructer about his behavior on walks and she agreed to come out to the lake where we walk and work on the problem there. She brought two large breed dogs and we made a plan to cross paths with the dogs so she could watch the behavior. He wasn't as reactive to her dogs, but he did show some reaction to other dogs that day. She showed me how to work with him and he showed great improvement immediately. I was so excited to see him actually passing other dogs and and not reacting like a maniac! 

She told me to work with him for a couple weeks and then we'll meet up again and work on putting the dogs back together. I'm working on getting him to zero reaction--no pulling, no growling, no barking, and certainly no ankle biting! Some days will go perfectly and I am stoked! He is happy and enjoys the walk without any behavior issues. Then a couple days later we have pulling and barking and it's very depressing. I have to try and focus on the good things. He walks on a loose lead by my side. He checks in often. He is great with kids. He can now pass noisy children, old people, skate boards, strollers, and usually small dogs. He is still reactive to those larger breed dogs that are putting out the stronger energy like Rotties and Pit Bulls, even some small breeds if they have that same attitude like one Jack Russell we see. Any of these dogs that he reacts to, he can be fine with if we are standing. If I stop and chat with the owner he sits nicely--it's only when we pass each other that he reacts. 

I want so much to get beyond this point and I'd be willing to walk him every day, all day if that would do it--but every day isn't possible. Some days it has rained and we don't get out. Some days we walk and don't have many training oportunities because there aren't alot of other dogs out to train against. I just have to keep working with him and know that we will get there as long as we keep working on it.

Yesterday we were rained out, but this morning is clear and we'll be walking!

Please know you are not alone in trying to work through behavior issues with your Smarty. I'm following your progress with great interest.


----------



## Scooter's Family

This thread has definitely inspired me too. When Bo and Jackie move on to their forever home I'm going to work on training each dog separately. I'm going to have to walk them on their own to get that down first. Then we'll start working on other stuff. It's all my fault and there's no excuse except laziness.


----------



## SMARTY

good buddy said:


> *She showed me how to work with him and he showed great improvement immediately.* I was so excited to see him actually passing other dogs and and not reacting like a maniac! .


What did she tell/show you to do?


----------



## SMARTY

Thanks everyone for the comments, I was having a real pity party day as far as Smarty goes. Danny said to go on to the shows, he knew exactly what happened last night. She gave a little reaction I over corrected and then I got flustered, she went into attack mode and I didn’t let it go of it before we were doing our ring work. Bad vibs and she picked up on them. As he said today is a new day, Smarty is over it and so should I be. Be consistent, no bad vibs, correct and move on like she was perfect.


----------



## good buddy

SMARTY said:


> What did she tell/show you to do?


What she showed me was something I already knew to do, it was turning and going the other direction--but I wasn't doing it soon enough, often enough, long enough or well enough to have it working.

I have Marley on a 6 foot lead. I have the lead gathered up but still leaving a bit loose as he heels to my side. He is allowed to get a foot ahead, but not 2 feet! If he pulls ahead 2 feet, or is showing excitement about an approaching dog, or worse I am to drop the slack in the lead, turn and run the opposite direction. If he is overly focused on something else he will be caught off guard. He has already learned to watch me very carefully and will turn and run with me. Then we turn back and attempt to pass again. If he reacts--same thing until he stops reacting and will pass smoothly.

I used to be unsure. He would get excited, but then not pull ahead, then pull, then back up and I wasn't sure about when to apply a correction. The trainer emphasized that one good correction is worth 10 poor ones. She said to correct immediately and every time he starts the behavior.


----------



## krandall

SMARTY said:


> I got flustered, she went into attack mode and I didn't let it go of it before we were doing our ring work. Bad vibs and she picked up on them. As he said today is a new day, Smarty is over it and so should I be. Be consistent, no bad vibs, correct and move on like she was perfect.


Boy, have I learned that lesson about Rally run-throughs! In the beginning, I would be concentrating so hard on doing everything right, that even though I was treating Kodi for correct responses, I think my whole tone and demeanor was communicating to him that this wasn't fun. When I realized what I was doing (partly by watching more experienced people with their dogs) I started going into the ring with a big smile for him and a really up-beat, positive tone of voice. I tried to maintain that tone of voice even when we made mistakes, he got distracted, etc.

What a difference it made! He still gets distracted...but he's still very young, and a lot of the Rally run-though courses are WAY above our level (pre-novice Ha!<g>). But he goes in and has FUN, no matter how we do. The result has been that we do WELL more of the time!


----------



## SMARTY

*Days 39 to 51&#8230;.6th lesson*

After her last Rally class I just knew the shows in Perry would be a disaster. I was ready to cancel everything, but working her at home she was spot on, almost perfect. So we did go and Smarty was wonderful. She earned her Rally Novice title (RN) in 3 shows. I could not have been happier with her. We stayed on the show grounds and walked several times a day among many dogs. Our site was on the road leading to all the events so she and Galen were exposed to dogs constantly. Our walks inside all the buildings were with literally hundreds of dogs and everything was fine. I've very glad we went.

Her lesson on Friday was very good, too. She was off lead most of the time in a large field with several other dogs. The fire department was having drills in the parking lot so we had distractions. Her recalls are not as fast as we will want but she came every time with no correction. We are to practice with Buddy holding her back, my calling with a treat and getting her to run to me. She had no reaction at all to the other dogs.

According to Danny, I talk too much to her. Dogs are quiet unless they have something to say&#8230;&#8230;.Keeping her happy does not mean constantly talking. You tune a dog off with chatter. Always praise her but then be quiet. She needs to be listening for me to say something important. This is in contradiction to most training I have done. While training, if she is heeling correctly she is told "good girl" and is on a loose lead, if she sits square, "good girl" pat on the head. Forget the "pretty girl, you are doing great, I'm proud of you, etc, etc. etc" when you say something it should mean something. They listen more to your demeanor then chatter. Keep your tone happy or serious according to the situation.

Danny also said most really playful dogs have a strong pray instinct...fetch, tug of war, chase. Most serious dogs have a strong pack leader/guardian instinct. Our working on the pack situation may increase the pray and play. The more she plays the better. I'm still not the total leader in her mind, it all takes time. No miracles, just consistency. She is initiating play with Galen more.

Smarty, Galen and I attended a rescue playdate yesterday with 14 + dogs inside because of the rain. I noticed most of the dogs there mingled only a little, just a couple were really social. The majority checked everything out, barked when one started but not much playing. Smarty was fine, her chin was wet not sure she was drooling so much as she did keep going out in the rain and she was drinking so that could have been part of it. If she was stressed she may have picked up on my totally "stressful" morning before the play date, unexpected guest, emergency bath for Smarty (rolling in icky stuff), traffic back up and driving 50 miles torrential rain. All in all I was very pleased with her behavior.

Every day we work on door manners, sit, quiet, then free. Most days we walk 2 to 3 miles at the park. Galen is now served everything first. No attention when she is in an excited state. Ignoring Smarty's very cute sit up shaking her paws demanding attention is the hardest thing of all. It takes time but we are getting there.


----------



## Evye's Mom

Sandi, thanks for the update on Smarty's progress. Sounds like things are progressing very nicely. I see myself in so many of the situations you describe. One, I talk to them too much. I feel like I'm ignoring them if I don't and worry they are bored and unhappy. And I obviously overdo on the praise. I think many of us are learning something through this journey. Thanks for being so open and sharing it with us.


----------



## SMARTY

Thanks Sharlene. Talking to them is so natural to me. I chatter to my girls making up the bed, cleaning the house or whatever. This is going to be hard. I’m looking forward to hearing how things go with you and the trainer this week.


----------



## Evye's Mom

Thanks Sandi. I'm cautiously optimistic but if we can master a pleasant walk, I will call it a success. He actually has walked pretty good the past two. When he pulls, I resist and it has gotten a wee better. Sniffed his new marking mailbox and did not mark it. I let him sniff 2 out of 3 of his favorites. Other than darting right to left, pretty decent walk.

Today Taylor wouldn't walk past a kid's big wheel. Planted his butt and wouldn't move. 
Further down the road he walked right past a man and a big scary loud lawn mower right at the edge of the street. Little bugger.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

SMARTY said:


> Thanks Sharlene. Talking to them is so natural to me. I chatter to my girls making up the bed, cleaning the house or whatever. This is going to be hard. I'm looking forward to hearing how things go with you and the trainer this week.


I have the same problem, talking to Winston, I actually feel guilty when I am not "entertaining" him. It is so good to get this information, I see how much I am doing wrong and how easy it is to fall into doing things the wrong way. As for ignoring Smarty when she does that little dance, I would have to blindfold myself!!


----------



## Evye's Mom

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> I have the same problem, talking to Winston, I actually feel guilty when I am not "entertaining" him. It is so good to get this information, I see how much I am doing wrong and how easy it is to fall into doing things the wrong way. As for ignoring Smarty when she does that little dance, I would have to blindfold myself!!


Me too Flynn. That has got to be so hard. Danny would flunk me in a nanosecond and then shoot me.

On our walk today with Bentley, I found myself saying "good boy, look at you, I am so proud of you", you're such a good boy." I caught myself and toned it down to "good boy."


----------



## kelrobin

Thanks for the Smarty update, Sandi. Wow, you are doing a lot with her and she is responding! Cngrats on the RN's! This is all helpful for us who have things we are working on as well. I appreciate you sharing all these training steps.


----------



## krandall

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> I have the same problem, talking to Winston, I actually feel guilty when I am not "entertaining" him. It is so good to get this information, I see how much I am doing wrong and how easy it is to fall into doing things the wrong way. As for ignoring Smarty when she does that little dance, I would have to blindfold myself!!


One of our little forum cuties was doing that dance in the show ring yesterday. I'm not sure whether they got extra points for it or not, but I saw a smile on the judge's face.


----------



## krandall

Evye's Mom said:


> Me too Flynn. That has got to be so hard. Danny would flunk me in a nanosecond and then shoot me.
> 
> On our walk today with Bentley, I found myself saying "good boy, look at you, I am so proud of you", you're such a good boy." I caught myself and toned it down to "good boy."


Kodi taught me NOT to do that very early in the game. I learned that if he was walking quietly beside me, and I even said "good boy" in a quiet voice, it was enough to rev him up again, and he's be shooting off.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

krandall said:


> Kodi taught me NOT to do that very early in the game. I learned that if he was walking quietly beside me, and I even said "good boy" in a quiet voice, it was enough to rev him up again, and he's be shooting off.


It surely melts my heart!!


----------



## whitBmom

Way to go Sandi, I am just catching up on this thread and wow, the progress is amazing and inspiring!


----------



## marjrc

Sandi, congratulations in getting Smarty's Rally !! That day sounded like a lot of fun and I'll bet you were beaming with how well Smarty did around all that activity. She's learning quickly and making leaps and bounds from the first week. I'm happy to hear that. 

I totally agree that people talk way too much to their dogs! Omg, you should hear some of the customers at the store I work at... "What a goodgirlagoodgirl,yesaverygoodmommy'sgirl" and squeaking it out the whole time! lol One woman in particular (has a toy poodle) ASKS him what he wants her to buy. And she's not even kidding around! She goes around the store, pointing things out to him and asking if he wants it. Oh and yes, the squeaky voice is definitely there! :der: I mean, the dog just tunes you out! :lalala: 

If it were Caesar Milan, he'd suggest you not even say a word! but then... I do love talking to my boys.


----------



## ama0722

Sandi- she did great at the play date. I didn't say anything but I remember at one point you told her to stop or leave it or something and she looked to you for guidance as she knew she wanted to do a dog correction but knew she was not suppose to. You definitely have stepped into that role- great work. I have that trouble with Isabelle and every once in awhile I get so proud when she avoids something and wont look at it (I will be honest sometimes it is me she is avoiding lol!)

As to the silence, I agree. I know this isn't the same but my agility instructor often makes us run silent. Dogs communicate so much more with body language and she wants to us to concentrate on our body language as our dogs naturally do. Every time I feel like it is a pain, it always works (shhhh! I didn't post this!)

Hugs,
Amanda


----------



## SMARTY

I am so glad most of you "get it" on the talking thing. Most OB and rally classes want you to talk to them to keep them happy and keep their attention, which Danny disagrees with.

Amanda, yes Smarty thinks she is the dog police. If I ever correct little Galen for any thing Smarty has to run over, growl or grumble at her. She is starting to get it though.


----------



## Evye's Mom

SMARTY said:


> I am so glad most of you "get it" on the talking thing. If I ever correct little Galen for any thing Smarty has to run over, growl or grumble at her. She is starting to get it though.


I didn't get it on the talking thing until you posted. I ask mine what I should make for dinner. Talk about a head tilt !!! I practiced today and it's so hard. I feel like they hate me for it.

Oh No !!! Evye is the dog police in this household. God forbid someone mishaves. Bentley is sherriff and steps in if something was overlooked. Taylor is the victim who holds his hands up and says "I surrender." I thought it was heirachy. So I'm wrong?


----------



## Scooter's Family

I talk to mine all the time! I thought it was a good thing but it's not? Uh oh.....


----------



## krandall

SMARTY said:


> I am so glad most of you "get it" on the talking thing. Most OB and rally classes want you to talk to them to keep them happy and keep their attention, which Danny disagrees with.


I also think it depends on the type of dog. We have a gal who does the rally run-throughs with us with 2 Newfies. She has to constantly be "revving" them up so that they don't just lie down and go to sleep on course.<g> She NEVER has to worry about over-excited or reactive dogs.<g>


----------



## SMARTY

I think the talking has to do with training. If you are trying to teach a dog something you do not need to keep up the constant chatter. Smarty has a huge vocabulary of words. She knows every animal on or any part of our property, every room in our home, peoples’ names and so many other things. This has to be from me talking to her all the time. BUT according to Danny, if I m working on training her to pay attention to me, I need to cut out the unnecessary words. He can have 6 dogs at a training session they can be a half a football field away and he says “come” and they will all come and sit within 1 to 2 feet of him. These are happy dogs with a total respect for their owner/master.


----------



## Scooter's Family

I want to adopt Danny!

There are times I KNOW my dogs understand me because, like you Sandi, I can say someone's name and they'll run to that person or that person's bedroom, there are tons of words they know but it's obvious they choose whether they want to do what's asked of them. I can only attribute that to laziness with training on my part. When we're back to 3 dogs in the house my goal is to work with each dog one on one more.


----------



## SMARTY

Scooter's Family said:


> I want to adopt Danny.


I know what you mean........Danny is probably old enough to be your Dad or close to that age. He has been training dogs for over 30 years. If I could have him as a live-in with me & my dogs for a month or two things could be heavenly around here with my 2 little darlings.


----------



## leena365

Good luck Sandi. I have a question can Smarty be re-trained to go back in the crate after sleeping on the bed all this time?


----------



## good buddy

leena365 said:


> Good luck Sandi. I have a question can Smarty be re-trained to go back in the crate after sleeping on the bed all this time?


Hopefully Sandi will come in and give you answer re-Smarty.

I can tell you that I let Rufus sleep on our bed a couple times and then when I wanted him to sleep in the crate he had a royal fussy about it lol! We decided then, it was best to just stay with the crate and not try and go back and forth.

Also I adopted a 10 yr. old dog last year and she was sleeping in the bed with us. After 3 weeks last year of no sleep, I gave up trying to crate train and just decided to let her in our bed since that was most likely what she was used to at her previous home. As an older dog, she recently started having pee-pee accidents at night so we decided to try the crate again. It's taken several weeks (5 maybe?) to get her to accept the crate, but I was not willing to have her peeing in my bed. So, it can be done.


----------



## SMARTY

leena365 said:


> Good luck Sandi. I have a question can Smarty be re-trained to go back in the crate after sleeping on the bed all this time?


Smarty has bone back to sleeping in her crate, after 2 3/4 years on the bed. I let both of them sleep with me at the show because having the crates set up in the motor home was the pits, but they went right back to their crates when we got home.


----------



## good buddy

SMARTY said:


> Smarty has bone back to sleeping in her crate, after 2 3/4 years on the bed. I let both of them sleep with me at the show because having the crates set up in the motor home was the pits, but they went right back to their crates when we got home.


Was it difficult convincing Smarty to sleep in the crate after being in the big bed?


----------



## SMARTY

Smarty has been put in her crate for different reasons over the years, with no fuss she just accepts it. For the first few days I had to actually put her in the crate, now she just goes in when I say night time.

One of these days I hope she can go back to sleeping with us, but for now we have to do what Danny says, "play all you want but when it is time to sleep she has to be off the bed" and with her that means the crate or she will continue to jump back on the bed, even sneak back when I go to sleep.


----------



## leena365

So I should give it a try with KASHI and MIYA even though KASHI is recovering from his ulnar osteotomy and may need extra tender loving care at this time?


----------



## SMARTY

leena365 said:


> So I should give it a try with KASHI and MIYA even though KASHI is recovering from his ulnar osteotomy and may need extra tender loving care at this time?


I'm not sure what you are asking. Do you let then sleep in crates? What I am doing with Smarty is to get past some issues she is/was having. This journal/thread is to let everyone know our process and progress. I don't feel comfortable giving advice without some insight as to what you want and need.


----------



## Missy

Sandi, you and Smarty are doing great. I really appreciate you sharing. it's good re-inforcement for all of us. Smarty sounds a lot like Jasper, I wish I could adopt Danny too.


----------



## leena365

My question was is it possible to put our pets back in their crates after they have become use to sleeping with us on our beds? I started to put them on the bed when Kashi injured his leg and started limping about three weeks ago, or is it better to buy a doggy bed and set it next to our beds.


----------



## SMARTY

leena365 said:


> My question was is it possible to put our pets back in their crates after they have become use to sleeping with us on our beds? I started to put them on the bed when Kashi injured his leg and started limping about three weeks ago, or is it better to buy a doggy bed and set it next to our beds.


Of course you can put them back in the crate, you are in charge. They are the pets and should be doing what you want. Most dogs do not mind the crate if they have ever been used to one. Usually it bothers us more than them. If they cry or whine do not let them out.

I would worry more about Kashi jumping off the bed and hurting the leg.


----------



## krandall

SMARTY said:


> I would worry more about Kashi jumping off the bed and hurting the leg.


I agree! Plus, you've said that Miya isn't reliable potty trained. If she's not, all the more reason to confine her where you can avoid accidents. Every accident she is allowed to have makes it harder to fix the problem.


----------



## leena365

good point. thanks sandi. i think i shall start crating him again starting tonight.


----------



## leena365

you are right Karen since we are paying more attention to Kashi right now sometimes Miya slips by and may have an accident. I just hate the growling she starts when she feels we are going to put her in her crate. She will never pee on the bed but she will jump off and may go off into the living room and do it. But i will start doing it again tonight.


----------



## SMARTY

leena365 said:


> you are right Karen since we are paying more attention to Kashi right now sometimes Miya slips by and may have an accident. I just hate the growling she starts when she feels we are going to put her in her crate. She will never pee on the bed but she will jump off and may go off into the living room and do it. But i will start doing it again tonight.


How are Kashi and Miya doing?


----------



## SMARTY

*7th Lesson, Day 57*

Today was an experience; I opened a can of worms when I jokingly said other people were spoiling my dog. Very long story short, "if you cannot control, you do not deserve to own a dog." This week has been not ordinary at all. I had to move my office to a much smaller space, 80% of the stuff had to come home, so rearranging and cleaning for out of town guest and whatever interfered with our walking and training. We only got in 2 days of walks this week and they were a rush. At class, Smarty decided again she would scare the life out of the little white Chihuahua. She really was bad. I have let her back slide this week by not following through with leadership. Danny is so right. I know there were several things that happened that I just let go. So Danny had us go to the park, walk 3 miles with her passing the little guy at least 20 times. Each time she was made to sit or down, let all the dogs in this class smell her, and then off we go. We did the same thing with the two "holy terror' Chihuahuas. After the first mile, she was perfect. No growling, snarling or anything. According to Danny, he doesn't care how large your yard is you need to exercise your dogs especially when you are trying to correct a bad learned behavior. And that is what Smarty has. She has been allowed to do this "Tasmanian act" for so long if I am not continually consistent she will go right back to doing it. Once I have mastered the continuous leadership our problems will/should be over.


----------



## klf0110

Hi Sandi,


I just found and read your tread. Very interesting. Congrats on the wonderful job you are doing with Smarty. I was wondering how you found your trainer Danny. I had to take my Huey out of beginning local dog classes due to severe car sickness on his part. I really want to continue his training with more instruction and a good dog trainer would be great. I wasn't really happy with the class dog trainers as they gave me no advice for his fear of being in a car. Any suggestions on how I would go about finding a good dog trainer and what I should look for?


----------



## SMARTY

Kathy, I found Danny through word of mouth. Call your local vets, check on line for dog trainers in your area and ask for references. Meet with them or ask to observe one of their lessons to make sure you feel comfortable with them. Most trainers have you pay upfront, so do your home work before you hire one. Good luck


----------



## good buddy

Ugh! how depressing! Isn't it a bummer when they do so well one week and you really get your hopes up that you're finally getting though all this only to have them behave like a terror again? Mine also do the “Tasmanian act” sometimes so I know exactly what you mean. It's embarassing and it's so frustrating! I agree with Danny on the yard thing. It's great to have a big house or a big yard for them, but nothing replaces the walk! I find it very hard some weeks to keep up that energy and to stay consistant! You're in the same boat as me where the troublesome behavior has gone on long enough to establish a pattern and it takes ALOT of work to get them straightened out.


----------



## SMARTY

klf0110 said:


> Hi Sandi,
> 
> I just found and read your tread. Very interesting. Congrats on the wonderful job you are doing with Smarty. I was wondering how you found your trainer Danny. I had to take my Huey out of beginning local dog classes due to severe car sickness on his part. I really want to continue his training with more instruction and a good dog trainer would be great. I wasn't really happy with the class dog trainers as they gave me no advice for his fear of being in a car. Any suggestions on how I would go about finding a good dog trainer and what I should look for?


I wanted to add one more thing. Ask if the trainer brings his/her dogs to classes, if they are well behaved enough to just be there. I've never had a trainer do this before. They teach "from the book" or tell me how good their dogs are. Danny is more like Cesar in that he shows up with one to 6 dogs on any give day. So I have solid examples of what I can accomplish and his methods.


----------



## leena365

Kashi is doing fine. I had my niece over for the weekend, who is doing her residency over at Detroit Receiving. Since it has been 12 days since Kashi's surgery she saved a trip to the technician at my local vet. I think he is relieved that his comfy cone is off and his bandage. He is now free to lick his body parts. I still have to keep Miya away from him she is a really high strung little girl. My follow up appt with the surgeon is May 19th at Oakland. I also was able to get a rain check on my intermediate training classes at PetSmart. As to the crate I don't have a problem with Kashi but Miya tends to keep howling and it really hard on every one's ears. Don't know what to do next? I would still my privacy on my bed. A friend suggested throw pillows on the floor making it like a bed and having them sleep on the floor next to the bed. Maybe I shall try that. I know though sleeping with us on the bed has become a habit for them.


----------



## SMARTY

Leena. they do get into a routine that they like very quickly. You might try covering the crate at the first howl. Remove it once they have settled or just leave it. Miya will learn the howling just gets her put into darkness if you don't let her out. If you ever give into the howls it is very hard to stop because she got what she wanted with this behavior. I have a friend that used a little water gun at night and shot her dog with each howl. It only took on evening. She felt mean but it did do the trick and didn't hurt the dog.


----------



## leena365

Thank you Sandi. I shall try it this evening. As I said Kashi is no problem but when Miya starts howling he feels he needs to join. But if I can keep them quiet by throwing a cover over their crate or squirting water into their crate to keep them quiet I shall give it a shot. Thanks so much!


----------



## good buddy

leena365 said:


> Thank you Sandi. I shall try it this evening. As I said Kashi is no problem but when Miya starts howling he feels he needs to join. But if I can keep them quiet by throwing a cover over their crate or squirting water into their crate to keep them quiet I shall give it a shot. Thanks so much!


Leena, Did your niece remove the stitches? How does it look? I bet it feels so much better to have the cone off!

Sandi's right in that if you back down when they fuss, you'll make it much harder on yourself! I haven't tried the water gun, but did sternly say "quiet!" when mine fussed as pups and even though it took a few days the fussing got less and less until it stopped. Keep your eye on the prize though, a whole bed just for you and hubby!


----------



## leena365

Christy, the it looks odd to see one leg shaved upto the foot and the rest of his body has hair. But I know he is relieved to have the cone off. He is still limping somewhat but he is at times raring to go when Miya eggs him on....I went to have their nails clipped as it had been four weeks but when I got there they told me it wasn't that bad and they did not want to touch the surgical foot incase they cause him pain by bending it backwards. She said next time it is better to get grinding done as it will round out their nails...I also bought them some square cushioned beds...I was hoping to use it in my room on the floor but I think I am going to have to use it as a car ride cushion instead...My little one can go under the bed even if I create a barrier....I am thinking of trying what you said tonight crating and throwing the cover over the crate and if that does not work trying the water idea.....I hope everyone at home can tolerate the squeals......


----------



## leena365

It was a rough night guys. We had to constantly tell her to QUIET. The water bottle didn't work. I kept the blanket over the crate. In the middle, I took them out to pee and she did not but KASHI did everytime. That's boys for you I guess. I guess I will stick it out again tonight. Until they figure out that their sleeping place is their crates.


----------



## good buddy

leena365 said:


> It was a rough night guys. We had to constantly tell her to QUIET. The water bottle didn't work. I kept the blanket over the crate. In the middle, I took them out to pee and she did not but KASHI did everytime. That's boys for you I guess. I guess I will stick it out again tonight. Until they figure out that their sleeping place is their crates.


I'm sorry to hear it was a rough night last night! Stick with it. I hope tonight is easier.


----------



## SMARTY

It will get easier........


----------



## leena365

You mean there is a light at the end of the tunnel? I went and bought them doggy beds but I think crating them at this time is the best


----------



## good buddy

leena365 said:


> You mean there is a light at the end of the tunnel? I went and bought them doggy beds but I think crating them at this time is the best


Doggy beds are always good! I have them around the house for the dogs to use in the daytime and then use the crates at night. Of course with Kashi's leg still healing the crate may be the best even in the afternoon for now.


----------



## leena365

You are right. With his leg the way it is the crate is what he prefers. It was a little better last night. I had them penned with their crates inside the pen because Miya can always find a way around a barrier. She slept on the square doggie bed and he slept in the crate whilst surrounded by an x-pen. What I really would like is for them to have their own miniature mattress to sleep on next to our bed on the floor.


----------



## SMARTY

*Day 59*

Smarty, Galen and I had a letter perfect walk this evening. Normally I walk Smarty and a friend walks Galen at the park because of the training, but today it was just the 3 of us. The girls were both so good, walked in heel position not one aggressive sound or action out of Smarty and we passed maybe 10 dogs. Both girls kept wonderful eye contact and were seriously paying attention to any and all commands. I am so happy it is really coming together.


----------



## good buddy

:whoo:


SMARTY said:


> *Day 59*
> 
> Smarty, Galen and I had a letter perfect walk this evening. Normally I walk Smarty and a friend walks Galen at the park because of the training, but today it was just the 3 of us. The girls were both so good, walked in heel position not one aggressive sound or action out of Smarty and we passed maybe 10 dogs. Both girls kept wonderful eye contact and were seriously paying attention to any and all commands. I am so happy it is really coming together.


Whooo! You go girl! I'm so happy for you! That is my dream, walking two dogs and both are well behaved angels. I'm glad to hear all your hard work is paying off!


----------



## Evye's Mom

I hope it is okay to share my successful day on this thread. We started training yesterday and I am so amazed at how well Bentley did on loose leash walking. It's me !!! I needed guidance in what to do when they veer off the norm. What I am asking him to do and the bad messages I am giving him. We had our best walk ever today !!! Long way to go but if this is any indication, I am very hopefull !!!


----------



## Scooter's Family

Sandi & Sharlene - Will you guys come live with me?


----------



## SMARTY

Evye's Mom said:


> I hope it is okay to share my successful day on this thread. We started training yesterday and I am so amazed at how well Bentley did on loose leash walking. It's me !!! I needed guidance in what to do when they veer off the norm. What I am asking him to do and the bad messages I am giving him. We had our best walk ever today !!! Long way to go but if this is any indication, I am very hopefull !!!


That is wonderful Sharlene, please share any and all, the good, the bad, the ugly with us. We are all trying to learn and the more info the better.


----------



## SMARTY

Scooter's Family said:


> Sandi & Sharlene - Will you guys come live with me?


3 kids, 5 dogs, that would mean 7 dogs and if Sharlene came that would be 10. No thank you, I have plans.

One dog one day at a time.


----------



## Evye's Mom

I have a long way to go with over doing "OMG...look at you, you are so good, what a good boy, I'm so impressed, I love you." I had to keep catching myself and toning it down to "good boy." I watched the trainer yesterday and she didn't say a word to them yet they just seemed to comply. I have a lot to learn.


----------



## good buddy

Evye's Mom said:


> I hope it is okay to share my successful day on this thread. We started training yesterday and I am so amazed at how well Bentley did on loose leash walking. It's me !!! I needed guidance in what to do when they veer off the norm. What I am asking him to do and the bad messages I am giving him. We had our best walk ever today !!! Long way to go but if this is any indication, I am very hopefull !!!


Yay for you! I'm glad to hear it! In the long run it doesn't matter that it's you, (it's me too I'm sure! :redface: ) what matters is that you can fix it! 

*Can I share too? I had two A+ days with the boys and then with all Chingy is going through I walked them together yesterday and it was not so good. It wasn't the worst, but more like a C+. :doh: Still, it's better than it used to be!


----------



## Evye's Mom

good buddy said:


> Yay for you! I'm glad to hear it! In the long run it doesn't matter that it's you, (it's me too I'm sure! :redface: ) what matters is that you can fix it!
> 
> *Can I share too? I had two A+ days with the boys and then with all Chingy is going through I walked them together yesterday and it was not so good. It wasn't the worst, but more like a C+. :doh: Still, it's better than it used to be!


A C+ is my goal. We are at the worst lowest F possible. Anything above will be a step in the right direction. I did let him mark his favorite mailbox but nothing else....so might have undone any good we accomplished today.

My absolute favorite one-on-one time with Evye tonight wasn't the same. Her demanding "play fetch game", I made her sit, down and stay before each toy was tossed. This kind of hurts a bit.


----------



## SMARTY

Another great walk this evening. I need to get instructions on loading a video from my iPhone to show just how good they are. I am so proud of them. One guy said Smarty was like a different dog approaching his dogs. :cheer2: :cheer2: :cheer2: 

Now if Smarty will not try to terrorize that little Chihuahua in class tomorrow that will be another great day. Keep your figures crossed.


----------



## mintchip

Fingers and paws crossed! Good luck


----------



## good buddy

SMARTY said:


> Another great walk this evening. I need to get instructions on loading a video from my iPhone to show just how good they are. I am so proud of them. One guy said Smarty was like a different dog approaching his dogs. :cheer2: :cheer2: :cheer2:
> 
> Now if Smarty will not try to terrorize that little Chihuahua in class tomorrow that will be another great day. Keep your figures crossed.


What a nice compliment! Fingers crossed for perfect behavior tomorrow!


----------



## Pixiesmom

Reading this from the beginning-how wonderful!!
If there were more owners like you, there would be many less dogs in shelters.


----------



## SMARTY

Not so fast with the praise!!!!!

*8th Lesson Day 64*
When will I ever learn not boast or brag! Smarty was awful at class today and I lost 10 years off my life. But she may have got just what she needed.

We meet with Danny, his Sheltie and Belgian Malinois for a nice walk. Smarty was perfect. The 2 little Chihuahua joined us. Everything was perfect. Great sits and downs. I'm feeling very confident. Then WHAM she goes after the little white Chihuahua. Her correction was sharp and swift by me. Danny put the correction collar on her and said enough of this. Next aggression one zap and she became a perfect little lady. At the off leash free play she stayed close to me and was wonderful. She let me give all the dogs treats and some were all over her trying to get to them. I wish she would participate in the ball chasing or tug of war with the other dogs but she doesn't.

Danny asked me to stay for the next session with Adam, a huge Doberman with a little owner. He was wearing one of those prong pinch collars plus a correction collar and was pulling his owner around like a sock. Too late!!!!! Smarty started her crap and Adam came at her (us) like a train. I'm not sure who he scared the most Smarty or me. I almost wet my pants. She dropped like a rock to a down.

Danny stopped me from grabbing her up. Once Adam reached us he stopped and smelled that was it. This is the first time in her life, or mine a dog has come at us with such a loud sounding viciousness. I don't know if the correction collar or Adam changed her attitude but she stayed very close after that. Smarty has never had a reaction to her aggression other than me before. Today she got zapped and could have been killed. For the next hour there was not one evil eye between the two. Adam's owner said he is all mouth, and doesn't do anything when he gets to the other dog. My same story, just add 100+ lbs and huge teeth. I thought "this is how that poor little Chihuahua feels."

Smarty is now on the correction collar all day. The slightest infraction of any rule and she gets a tap. We've taken the nice approach for 8 weeks and she still pulls this stunt. She has to learn that it is not when she wants to or in her own good time it is never or when I say do it. She knows what she is doing and needs constant correction for any violation to get the point across. Danny said she will learn but she is a very hard case. I hate the idea of this collar but this has to stop.

We're joining another group on Wednesday, all large dogs. I think I'll go buy some Depends just in case.


----------



## Scooter's Family

Forgive me for laughing Sandi, you paint a very funny picture! 

I can't imagine how scared you and Smarty were and I would have wet my pants for sure! Don't worry, you two have come so far already! I'm in awe of you and Smarty.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

I too would need Depends. I cannot believe how stubborn she is being with this, you think she is "reformed" and whammmm, off to eat the white Chihuahua!:eyebrows: It will be interesting to see her reaction to the large dog class, but I am not sure she will even think they are bigger than she is, do you? I am so happy you are sharing all of this with us, it is changing a lot of what I am doing and thinking about doing. You, Cesar, Danny and Smarty are teaching me a lot and Winston has some changes in the making here! If he could read he would delete my HF membership!


----------



## good buddy

Sandi,

I am so glad you are sharing your jouirney with us! Marley and Smarty must be kindred spirits. I can have A+ behavior from him for a few days and them WHAM! he is a little pishser! My biggest fear is what happened to you but yours happened in a controlled environment-that Marley will charge at another dog like a Rottie or a Pit Bull and the dog will trigger and come right back at him and tear him up! I do NOT see your past posts as bragginf or boasts. I can see you getting your hopes up that Smarty is changing her ways and then getting slammed to the mat. :hurt:


----------



## SMARTY

Ann, I can laugh at it now.

Flynn, the main thing to remember is they are not people and should not be treated like people. Some dogs can get all the attention in the world and not be like Smarty. Her leash aggression, door barking, frenzied for attention should have been nipped in the bud and I didn’t. I picked her up at the door to stop her barking rather than making her sit and behave. I petted her when I came in while she was in a very excited state and gave into her dancing and sit up shaking her paws for attention. I accept responsibility for those but the leash aggression I do not know where that came from with all the socialization she had.

I was ready to quit on this and just leave her at home at one time but today she made me mad. We will conquer this if it takes the rest of our lives.


----------



## SMARTY

good buddy said:


> Sandi,
> My biggest fear is what happened to you but yours happened in a controlled environment-that Marley *will charge at another dog like a Rottie or a Pit Bull and the dog will trigger and come right back at him and tear him up*!


Christy this is my biggest fear, today I saw her life flash before my eyes.


----------



## davetgabby

Sorry Sandi, I can't agree with these methods.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

davetgabby said:


> Sorry Sandi, I can't agree with these methods.


Dave, are there other methods you would employ? I am not critical, but curious of alternatives. I just received a rebuttal to my thoughts on vaccines, which gave me pause to reconsider. THanks!


----------



## davetgabby

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> Dave, are there other methods you would employ? I am not critical, but curious of alternatives. I just received a rebuttal to my thoughts on vaccines, which gave me pause to reconsider. THanks!


Here is our IPDTA research article on shock collars. http://www.ipdta.org/shock-collars.html


----------



## SMARTY

davetgabby said:


> Sorry Sandi, I can't agree with these methods.


I didn't either but after over two years of love, pet, reward, going in a different direction, the gentle leader, put her on her back, let the dog smell her. Halters, martingales, let someone else walk her, shoulders' back, elbow bent, eyes ahead, not being allowed in classes because of this behavior, ask to leave, going to a "behaviorist for 8 weeks" who wanted her away from the other dogs in the class as to not upset them when she pull this stunt, Cesar's, Victoria's, Tamar's books & websites, etc, etc.

My options are correct it or never have her on a leash with other dogs!

So how would you handle this, Dave? I have been very open to suggestions for this issue many times on this forum.


----------



## SMARTY

davetgabby said:


> Here is our IPDTA research article on shock collars. http://www.ipdta.org/shock-collars.html


The collars are only as bad as the person using them. A dog does not learn in pain, but will from stimulation and correction. I had to wear it on my arm and use it before I could use it on her.


----------



## Luciledodd

Sandi I agree with the correction collar. If the dog is not brain damaged it will not be shocked more than once or twice for the same behavior. Just think about all the people that have the invisible fencing for their dogs. I once had a lab in the fenced area that could climb over the 6-foot wood fence--major highway at my house. I didn't think twice about putting a regular electric fence wire around the top of my fence. Daisy didn't get shocked but twice. Once at one place then she tried another place and shocked--that cured her and probably saved her life. If the collar saves your dogs life then use it. I have even seen Caesar use the shock collar and the prong collar on large dogs.

And as far as vaccinations go, I am all for it. I vacinated all my children and my grandchildren had all theirs. When I was little, we got the smallpox vacine--yes it made us run a fever for a few days; but we eradicated smallpox in the US. We are not doctors or Vets and don't know everything they know--so I prefer to defer to what the professional tells me. As Ann Landers would say "whip me with a wet noodle" but everyone has to do what is best for them and their animals.


----------



## davetgabby

Sandi , I commend you on your efforts. It is human nature to try everything when trying to solve a tough problem. But with this sort of problem ,one has to work on the cause of the aggression. And Although I've only read snippits ,it is probably fear based. Well over 90 percent of aggession in dogs is fear based. You have to modify Smarti 's perception of other dogs. Some of the ideas employed here ,are on track but certainly not the shock collar. To be honest with you , I would look for another trainer, one that is experienced with aggression but that does not counteract the desensitization process with aversive "corrections". But read this article I posted , it gives a great discription of what is in play here. Keep in mind , we cannot expect every dog to like every other dog. Dogs are quite like people, sometimes there are just certain individuals that they are just never going to get along with.


----------



## Sheri

Sandi, I'm thinking you are doing the right thing with the shock collar--saving her life is more important that always being gentle. 

I feel the same way about children touching a hot stove or running into the street... a good swat or spanking can save their life.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Luciledodd said:


> Sandi I agree with the correction collar. If the dog is not brain damaged it will not be shocked more than once or twice for the same behavior. Just think about all the people that have the invisible fencing for their dogs. I once had a lab in the fenced area that could climb over the 6-foot wood fence--major highway at my house. I didn't think twice about putting a regular electric fence wire around the top of my fence. Daisy didn't get shocked but twice. Once at one place then she tried another place and shocked--that cured her and probably saved her life. If the collar saves your dogs life then use it. I have even seen Caesar use the shock collar and the prong collar on large dogs.
> 
> And as far as vaccinations go, I am all for it. I vacinated all my children and my grandchildren had all theirs. When I was little, we got the smallpox vacine--yes it made us run a fever for a few days; but we eradicated smallpox in the US. We are not doctors or Vets and don't know everything they know--so I prefer to defer to what the professional tells me. As Ann Landers would say "whip me with a wet noodle" but everyone has to do what is best for them and their animals.


I agree, there is an excellent article out which changed my mind. I will try and find appropriate thread to send it along.


----------



## davetgabby

SMARTY said:


> The collars are only as bad as the person using them. A dog does not learn in pain, but will from stimulation and correction. I had to wear it on my arm and use it before I could use it on her.


Sandi, dogs do not learn well when in pain or stress. To know what Smarty is feeling is quite often different. For punishment to work it has to be strong enough. Please read this aricle to understand why shock collars do not address the problem here. They only are a stop gap measure. Here is even a better discription of what I am trying to say here. http://www.dogsportmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/The Problem With Shock.pdf


----------



## SMARTY

*Bold is mine*


davetgabby said:


> Although I've only read snippits ,it is probably fear based. Well over 90 percent of aggession in dogs is fear based. * Of course it WAS fear aggression, so WAS her stress drooling. Now it is habit. Danny is right about that. *. You have to modify Smarti 's perception of other dogs. * Suggestions please? *Some of the ideas employed here ,are on track but certainly not the shock collar. * We certainly did not start with the correction collar but that is where we are now *To be honest with you , I would look for another trainer, one that is experienced with aggression but that does not counteract the desensitization process with aversive "corrections".*Please see below.* But read this article I posted , it gives a great discription of what is in play here. Keep in mind , we cannot expect every dog to like every other dog. Dogs are quite like people, sometimes there are just certain individuals that they are just never going to get along with.* So accept her behavior and keep her at home ... is this what you are saying?*


* I will not be changing trainers.* Danny has over 30 years of working with troubled dogs. He has worked with vets, police departments, rescue groups and rehabilitated hundreds of dogs. . I've used the gentle trainers, the behaviorists, private and group instructors who after their 6 or 8 weeks need another fee to continue not to find a solution or suggest another trainer or school for aggressive dogs. You pay Danny once for a problem or issue, do what he says and he will stay with you until it is resolved. Every where we go past clients are coming up to him to tell him how well their dogs are doing. Danny does not just talk a good training he has proved it. Every dog I have seen of his is happy, extremely well behaved and obedient. He has had 6 of his dogs loose in a public place, no fence, with his client's messed up dogs. One call they come, sit or fetch a ball. How many people do you know that can do that with their dogs?

I did not and will not suggest everyone go out and buy a correction collar, but this is where we are today with Smarty's training and if it gets us to where we need to be I am thankful I found someone who accepts that she can and will change with the right motivation and is not so closed minded to different methods.

Dave you post a lot of good articles but how many dogs have you trained? Your number of first hand experiences with troubled dogs?


----------



## davetgabby

Sandi, if you are happy with your trainer ,that is fine. I'm just saying that I disagree with some of his methods. I am not saying to leave her at home ,not in the least. She needs help if you want to go out in public with her. And all dogs deserve to be able to do this. Wish you well.


----------



## good buddy

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> I agree, there is an excellent article out which changed my mind. I will try and find appropriate thread to send it along.


Flynn, I would be interested in seeing the article you mention.

Dave, I read what you sent but it was less an article (IMO) and more of a bullet point presentation of why that specific group has decided not to back the use of shock collars. They made some good points but it wasn't a balanced article for me.



davetgabby said:


> Keep in mind , we cannot expect every dog to like every other dog. Dogs are quite like people, sometimes there are just certain individuals that they are just never going to get along with.


Just like with people though, it's ok not to like another person but something different entirely to take after them chasing and yelling. (or barking!)



SMARTY said:


> Dave you post a lot of good articles but how many dogs have you trained? Your number of first hand experiences with troubled dogs?


I'd be curious to learn this too.

I think we can all agree that the use of corrective collars is a controversial issue and not everyone is going to feel the same way about it. There are groups out there that are dead-set against there use and there are people that abuse them but they are available to the public as a training tool and it's worthwhile to me to hear all sides of the story. If this will work for Smarty to correct her current behavior it could very well save her life. She was targeted by one large dog already but in a controlled setting. Next time, it could be while Sandi is out on a daily walk with her dog and the result could be very different.


----------



## Havtahava

Just my opinion, of course:

I cannot stand Cesar's methods of "training" but I admit that he's done a lot of good for dogs that would otherwise have to be put down or left in kennels forever because their behavior is so poor. I cringe when I see Hav owners referring to him (because so many novice dog people cannot distinguish his good distraction methods from his flooding methods or adversives), but know that once in a great while that may be the only way to reach a dog. Likewise, the shock collar makes me cringe, but I fear that Smarty may lose her life with her way of viewing other creatures and responding to them in such an aggressive manner. Sandi has been around dogs (and much bigger dogs!) for a long time and had some training with the collar and was willing to wear it on her arm to become comfortable with the use of this stimuli.

Anyway, all that to say, I think Sandi and Smarty are a very unique pair with Sandi's experience in dogs and Smarty's behaviors. If this is what it takes, I sure hope it gets her under control. I would never recommend this for the average Havanese, nor a new dog owner, nor one who hasn't exhausted all other meaures.

I appreciate Dave being outspoken in disagreeing things he sees as potentially harmful and continuing to encourage the positive training methods. I thoroughly agree with him that Jean Donaldson and Dr. Ian Dunbar's methods are much more successful and create better canine-human relationships overall. I wish that some of these methods would have worked for Sandi & Smarty, but it looks like Smarty is going to be that one odd dog that is going to need some more extreme measures since they have exhausted all other methods with this trainer.

Best of luck to you Sandi! I hope this is the key for Smarty.


----------



## davetgabby

Hi Christy, all I am saying is that I don't agree with their use for many reasons. This is only two articles . But from all the research that has been done, they have been proven to do more harm than good. They represent a temporary solution to a much more complex problem. Their side effects are not worth it in my opinion. They do not address the real problem. Aggression is a serious problem and one has to work with the dog to resolve the issues. I could give examples of how dogs can be helped with aggression but the number one rule of thumb that experts in aggression will tell you is that you don't try to give advice without seeing the dog. All I was saying is that most if not all of the professionals that I know , do not recommend shock collars or prong collars.


----------



## davetgabby

Havtahava said:


> Just my opinion, of course:
> 
> I cannot stand Cesar's methods of "training" but I admit that he's done a lot of good for dogs that would otherwise have to be put down or left in kennels forever because their behavior is so poor. I cringe when I see Hav owners referring to him (because so many novice dog people cannot distinguish his good distraction methods from his flooding methods or adversives), but know that once in a great while that may be the only way to reach a dog. Likewise, the shock collar makes me cringe, but I fear that Smarty may lose her life with her way of viewing other creatures and responding to them in such an aggressive manner. Sandi has been around dogs (and much bigger dogs!) for a long time and had some training with the collar and was willing to wear it on her arm to become comfortable with the use of this stimuli.
> 
> Anyway, all that to say, I think Sandi and Smarty are a very unique pair with Sandi's experience in dogs and Smarty's behaviors. If this is what it takes, I sure hope it gets her under control. I would never recommend this for the average Havanese, nor a new dog owner, nor one who hasn't exhausted all other meaures.
> 
> I appreciate Dave being outspoken in disagreeing things he sees as potentially harmful and continuing to encourage the positive training methods. I thoroughly agree with him that Jean Donaldson and Dr. Ian Dunbar's methods are much more successful and create better canine-human relationships overall. I wish that some of these methods would have worked for Sandi & Smarty, but it looks like Smarty is going to be that one odd dog that is going to need some more extreme measures since they have exhausted all other methods with this trainer.
> 
> Best of luck to you Sandi! I hope this is the key for Smarty.


You're absolutely right Kimberly. Sometimes certain dogs can never be totally rehabilitated from aggression issues. All we can do is try.


----------



## Scooter's Family

Sandi - Since I know you and your dogs I'm going to jump in. Sandi's dogs are wonderful and I don't know anyone who loves their dogs more than Sandi does. I've heard her talk about Smarty's problems for almost 2 years and saw how bad she felt when she had to leave Smarty at home instead of bringing her to a playdate because of her behavior.

I know you wouldn't undertake this, or any training method, unless you trusted the trainer and believed that what you were doing was the very best thing for SMARTY. What it boils down to is that you know your dog best. For this you have my respect.


----------



## SMARTY

Dave, why do you never answer a question about your experience? The question is how many dogs have you worked with personally? Trained? Dogs with problems corrected? We need numbers and years. 

Kimberly, I named several people other then Cesar and stated some of the different training I have done with Smarty. You are right I have owned, conformation titled, obedience titled, field trialed, hunted with, taught basic obedience, whelped and hand raised litters, rescued dogs, worked at humane societies and with animal control for more years than many on the forum members have been breathing. I would wager my ability to handle a dog with anyone on this forum. The clicker, treat, or praise method works with many dogs. Been there done that with Smarty.

There are many well read, novice know it alls, want-a-be’s, one method does fit all dogs people out there. Many whose dogs sit, down and walk around a ring and think they are trainers. But until you have really trained and worked many different dogs with different temperaments and problems personally, I have to say you don’t know what you are talking about. 

Thank you Christy and Ann.

Not once did I advocate for the correction collar, but it is part of this journey.


----------



## Evye's Mom

Sandi, I highly respect your opinion. I cannot speak for dogs. I am a novice and I know it. Being a Mom and a grandmother of five and (trying to) understand children, no two people, kids (nor dogs) can be handled the same way effectively. We have to constantley be open to different alternatives when the most well-known conventional methods are not effective. What I have come to know through the forum and from having met you personally, your dog's best interest is your foremost priority. We have read and some have witnessed the strides Smarty has made. You have motivated many others, including myself, to correct unacceptable behaviors. You seem to trust this trainer tremendously and I trust your judgement...that's all I can say on this controversial issue.


----------



## ama0722

I have never thought there is one right way to do anything nor one right trainer (if there is, everyone would have perfect dogs!) 

I love my dogs as they are my children (not literally!) and I will admit I have used a prong collar on 4.5lb Belle. At first I thought it was cruel when I saw people use them when walking their giant dogs and yanking them all over the place. After using one, I would not do that to my dogs. I saw it used properly and played with it myself on my arm. Let me tell you there is a huge difference when you move and don't apply pressure on the leash v. the leash being jerked with a prong. I used it a few times and with the advice of a trainer I really trusted and we got a micro mini for Belle. Mind you I had tried many things but it was more about Belle hurting her trachea with a collar when she was being crazy Belle. She had been through many different forms of training- you name it. Belle was going to obedience I think 4 nights a week at least. This worked the best for us. I never jerked but allowed Belle to walk like she does and she felt the aversive when she rushed up on the collar and immediately stopped doing it. Belle associated the hurt with rushing forward. We did a few times and Belle trained herself. Just one experience I have had with one of those items some of the clicker people like to say is cruel. I haven't used it on my Havanese as they are different dogs. 

I think it is a personal decision for any training method but I really try not to judge others as I know each of my dogs is extremely different (and none of them are rescues or have gone through trauma, etc) and so likely, theirs is as well. I think the great thing about having so many trainers is how many different methods we get to see and how many tools are out there.


----------



## davetgabby

SMARTY said:


> Dave, why do you never answer a question about your experience? The question is how many dogs have you worked with personally? Trained? Dogs with problems corrected? We need numbers and years.
> 
> Kimberly, I named several people other then Cesar and stated some of the different training I have done with Smarty. You are right I have owned, conformation titled, obedience titled, field trialed, hunted with, taught basic obedience, whelped and hand raised litters, rescued dogs, worked at humane societies and with animal control for more years than many on the forum members have been breathing. I would wager my ability to handle a dog with anyone on this forum. The clicker, treat, or praise method works with many dogs. Been there done that with Smarty.
> 
> There are many well read, novice know it alls, want-a-be's, one method does fit all dogs people out there. Many whose dogs sit, down and walk around a ring and think they are trainers. But until you have really trained and worked many different dogs with different temperaments and problems personally, I have to say you don't know what you are talking about.
> 
> Thank you Christy and Ann.
> 
> Not once did I advocate for the correction collar, but it is part of this journey.


Sandi , I do not train dogs. I am just an advocate of training. I have been studying dogs for twenty years maybe. I like to think I know a little about it. I was asked to be president of IPDTA but turned it down ,because I am too involved already. I associate with trainers all the time. Sandi ,like I said ,I give you credit for your efforts, you have gone the extra mile. I simply wanted to point out that what I've learned ,is that using an item like a shock collar for aggression problems is not a good idea. I am simply telling you what I know to be the views of experts in the field. Like Kimberly said ,these are the sort of things you would hear from Jean Donaldson, Ian , Patricia OConnelll, people who are experts in the field. Ian studied dogs for ten years in relation to olfactory and aggression. I simply try to put out information that is endorsed by many of the respected people in the field. I am not questioning your expertise. Aggression is a difficult thing to get a grip on ,and like my friend and founder of IPDTA says ,she will not give advice about aggression without seeing the dog. Simply because she believes that it not always apparent what the real causes are, and many people misdiagnose things when it comes to aggression.


----------



## Havtahava

SMARTY said:


> Kimberly, I named several people other then Cesar and stated some of the different training I have done with Smarty. .


Sandi, I didn't mean to cause confusion by mentioning Cesar in response to your training. I was correlating it to people (mostly new to training or dog ownership) that throw his name around as someone they have watched and how it makes me cringe, and likewise how the correction collars cause a similar inward cringe for me.



SMARTY said:


> Not once did I advocate for the correction collar, but it is part of this journey.


 That is right. In fact, you also mentioned your discomfort and unease in using it and put it on your own arm first and were specifically trained how to use it.

My post was basically *in support of you *and to share hope that this is the means to the end of the behavior for Smarty. However, this is a public board and the thread will stick around for a long time. My hope is that someone doesn't show up on the forum with similar problems in their dog, and then, like a bad book reader, skip to the last chapter and think, "Aha! That's what worked for Smarty, so I'll just skip all the other steps!" Rather, I wanted to reiterate that while this isn't a preferred method by any good trainer, you included, it may be the method that works for Smarty because you have exhausted all the other means. Does that make more sense?


----------



## marjrc

Sandi, I can't completely understand your frustrations, fears and exhaustion when it comes to everything you've tried and are doing now to help Smarty, because I'm not going through that, but you have my support. I am very glad that you are sharing your experiences here for us to learn from. Of course every dog is different, but some basic training tools work for many dogs and from this, I am learning. 

I am not a fan of shock collars either, but I understand the reasons some feel obligated to use them. I read the articles you posted, Dave, and for sure there are many cons to using a shock collar, but I trust your trainer's ability, Sandi, to teach you the right way to use it and your own ability to know what's too much or what might not be in Smarty's best interest. That's what it boils down to, really. The owner's understanding of her dog and whether her trainer respects what the owner is willing or not willing to try. 

I have learned a lot from Cesar Milan, but there are things he does that I don't agree with either. I think it's about learning bits and pieces here and there and trusting those professional trainers that you connect with. I know trainers that couldn't pay me enough to work with them! lol


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Sandi, please don't let all this keep you from posting your experiences with Smarty. I have loved hearing all about your ups and downs as you take this journey. It is a great learning experiences for many of us. Thank you so much for sharing, I know you have plenty to do without documenting all of this, but I for one look so forward to it. It is my favorite thread I think, except for cute rescues


----------



## SMARTY

I’ve taken a couple of days to reevaluate the direction this thread was going. After your post and several private posts I decided many people want to know that all Havanese are not perfect little lap dogs we project when they ask, some have the same small dog syndromes you see in many toy breeds. Some have even bigger issues. 

We create these issues. The dogs are not born with them. I did with Smarty. Now it is my job to correct it. What we are doing now is not for the faint of heart, not a way of life, and certainly not for all dogs. Our Galen would have a broken heart if we ever raised our voices to her, she will never need this method but this is not about the Galens out there. This is about a dog that did not respond to the love, pat, click, treat, martingale or praise on this ONE thing that probably started out as fear and became a “learned behavior” and habit.

I was not upset with the post giving the hazards of using the collars, but am furious with the totally narrow way of thinking on a training tool that has saved or given better lives to so many dogs that were not responding to softer training methods. The collars have been proved countless times to work on dogs with issues and are a part of many working and service dogs training. 

The correction collars do cause pain. In the hands of someone not using them correctly they are barbaric but so are choke chains or martingales. What the opponents to this method don’t mention is a dog’s pain levels and reactions to pain are different from humans. I was in bed for days, not allowed to do much for six weeks after my surgical hysterectomy, it was painful, and my dogs with the same type surgery are usually back to normal in a couple of days. A painful cut, falls or loose a leg, dogs handle this differently than humans. They do not dwell on it the way we do. They move on. 

No Dave, I will not change trainers and my trainer did not force me into the Correction collar. He offered it because Smarty was not responding to methods like Dave’s group or my trainers’ on her leash aggression. She is unpredictable as to when she does it. If I had stayed on the other courses I would have given up on her like so many people do. That is how I ended up this trainer. He will work with the owners that have screwed up like me or have troubled dogs, the ones headed to euthanasia, and the people who will go the extra mile to give their dog the life they deserve. He has more love, respect and compassion for dogs than anyone I have ever known. The trainers and behaviorist I used before that quoted the heroes mentioned above and others, who would never use or suggest the correction collars, wanted her away from the classmates and have suggested for me to just to love her at home. Even with all his 20 years of studying dogs Dave's statement “Dogs are quite like people, sometimes there are just certain individuals that they are just never going to get along” tells me & his group give up on certain dogs. Sorry this statement and thought is unacceptable to me. Smarty deserves better than giving up on an issue that keeps her & me from fully enjoying life. 

Up until recently I would have said I would never use a correction collar but anyone that saw Smarty at her first playdate staying on the fringes, a drooling mess and the growl at a friendly little visitor after her many sessions with gentle trainers, and then saw her a few weeks ago moving with the pack up the stairs, wanting her flossie and taking toys to Galen know this trainer has helped us so much that I will trust him to do what is best for her and see us to the fulfillment of her balanced life.


----------



## SMARTY

For the private posters who have asked me not to stop this thread, I'm not. We have another lesson tomorrow with the big dogs. Our walks this week have been uneventful and pleasant.


----------



## davetgabby

SMARTY said:


> I've taken a couple of days to reevaluate the direction this thread was going. After your post and several private posts I decided many people want to know that all Havanese are not perfect little lap dogs we project when they ask, some have the same small dog syndromes you see in many toy breeds. Some have even bigger issues.
> 
> We create these issues. The dogs are not born with them. I did with Smarty. Now it is my job to correct it. What we are doing now is not for the faint of heart, not a way of life, and certainly not for all dogs. Our Galen would have a broken heart if we ever raised our voices to her, she will never need this method but this is not about the Galens out there. This is about a dog that did not respond to the love, pat, click, treat, martingale or praise on this ONE thing that probably started out as fear and became a "learned behavior" and habit.
> 
> I was not upset with the post giving the hazards of using the collars, but am furious with the totally narrow way of thinking on a training tool that has saved or given better lives to so many dogs that were not responding to softer training methods. The collars have been proved countless times to work on dogs with issues and are a part of many working and service dogs training.
> 
> The correction collars do cause pain. In the hands of someone not using them correctly they are barbaric but so are choke chains or martingales. What the opponents to this method don't mention is a dog's pain levels and reactions to pain are different from humans. I was in bed for days, not allowed to do much for six weeks after my surgical hysterectomy, it was painful, and my dogs with the same type surgery are usually back to normal in a couple of days. A painful cut, falls or loose a leg, dogs handle this differently than humans. They do not dwell on it the way we do. They move on.
> 
> No Dave, I will not change trainers and my trainer did not force me into the Correction collar. He offered it because Smarty was not responding to methods like Dave's group or my trainers' on her leash aggression. She is unpredictable as to when she does it. If I had stayed on the other courses I would have given up on her like so many people do. That is how I ended up this trainer. He will work with the owners that have screwed up like me or have troubled dogs, the ones headed to euthanasia, and the people who will go the extra mile to give their dog the life they deserve. He has more love, respect and compassion for dogs than anyone I have ever known. The trainers and behaviorist I used before that quoted the heroes mentioned above and others, who would never use or suggest the correction collars, wanted her away from the classmates and have suggested for me to just to love her at home. Even with all his 20 years of studying dogs Dave's statement "Dogs are quite like people, sometimes there are just certain individuals that they are just never going to get along" tells me & his group give up on certain dogs. Sorry this statement and thought is unacceptable to me. Smarty deserves better than giving up on an issue that keeps her & me from fully enjoying life.
> 
> Up until recently I would have said I would never use a correction collar but anyone that saw Smarty at her first playdate staying on the fringes, a drooling mess and the growl at a friendly little visitor after her many sessions with gentle trainers, and then saw her a few weeks ago moving with the pack up the stairs, wanting her flossie and taking toys to Galen know this trainer has helped us so much that I will trust him to do what is best for her and see us to the fulfillment of her balanced life.


Hi Sandi , regarding my statement about some dogs never totally recover from aggression issues. I didn't mean to imply that one should give up on them . Like I said to you privately , I respect your decision to take the route you took. I credited you with your determination and told you not to give up. I still do. Please do not label the trainers that I "associate" with , as being quiters. No matter what type of trainer one is ,there are some that are good and some not so good. No different than any profession. Sandi please continue this thread. We all care how things turn out, me included. We are all rooting for you and Smarty.


----------



## Evye's Mom

I am very pleased to hear you will continue this thread. I watch for your posts and the progress and set backs you have experienced through this journey. It's a good dose of reality for all those who are willing to admit we do not live in a perfect world. We are not perfect. Many of us do not have perfect spouses, children, nor pets. It's recognizing we have a problem, our ability to humble ourselves and the wisdom to pursue guidance. Some are fortunate enough where conventional measures work miracles and some are not. I admire your love and devotion for Smarty and the measures you have taken. You are my role model for what I would want to do and be if I were ever in the same situation.


----------



## LuvCicero

I admire you and I'm proud of you for working with Smarty to make her the best she can be. I've told you that I appreciate you sharing your information with us. I think it makes all of us want to work more with our furkids. Keep up the good work!!


----------



## irnfit

Evye's Mom said:


> I am very pleased to hear you will continue this thread. I watch for your posts and the progress and set backs you have experienced through this journey. It's a good dose of reality for all those who are willing to admit we do not live in a perfect world. We are not perfect. Many of us do not have perfect spouses, children, nor pets. It's recognizing we have a problem, our ability to humble ourselves and the wisdom to pursue guidance. Some are fortunate enough where conventional measures work miracles and some are not. I admire your love and devotion for Smarty and the measures you have taken. You are my role model for what I would want to do and be if I were ever in the same situation.


So well said. Havs are not perfect little dogs. They all have different personalities and temperments. Most people would have given up on Smarty. Kudos to you Sandi for sticking with Smarty.


----------



## krandall

irnfit said:


> So well said. Havs are not perfect little dogs. They all have different personalities and temperments. Most people would have given up on Smarty. Kudos to you Sandi for sticking with Smarty.


Dogs are dogs. As creatures, none of them are "perfect", any more than people are. I don't like the idea of e-collars, and am very glad that Kodi seems to be a "softer", easier dog to train... like Galen.

That said, I've trained horses for over 35 years, (and that's more horses than I can count or remember) and while MOST of them have been able to be trained with gentle means and without the more forceful "devices" that some horse trainers resort to regularly, I have to say that there had been a couple where I have HAD to use equipment I would have preferred not to, after exhausting all other options. Horses have the potential to be much more dangerous than even the biggest dog.

Likewise, my "day job" is working with families of children with special needs. Most of us would prefer to think that we would "never" medicate our kids or allow them to be restrained in school. The vast majority of kids can be raised and educated without these methods. The fact remains that a SMALL percentage are not functional (or would harm themselves) without meds, and/or would hurt either themselves or others if not restrained under certain circumstances. This isn't the way we would LIKE things to be, but they are the facts of life. I urge that families exhaust all other options before resorting to meds. And placing a child in a school that uses restraints is usually FAR down the list of options. But some kids do need this.

So while I wish Sandi had been able to solve Smarty's problems without the e-collar, she has certainly shown us through this whole thread (and the back story of her experience with many other larger and typically "tougher" dogs) that she really has tried all the gentler methods first. On top of that, the results are speaking for themselves. Smarty is not becoming anxious and shut down... she is enjoying her world more and showing LESS signs of anxiety than she did previously.

Finally, Sandi, even with all her experience, is doing this WITH the guidance of an experienced trainer whom she trusts. No matter how experienced we are training animals, it often makes sense to have a "fresh set of eyes" on a problem to decide how best to approach it, and to give us a balanced view of what's going on that is not tinged by the emotions we have when dealing with our own pets.

I have full confidence in Sandi that if she felt that the e-collar were harming Smarty in any way, she would cease its use. She would not allow ANYONE, including Danny, to abuse Smarty with it.


----------



## SMARTY

Thanks everyone for the encouragement, we are moving on.
Last night on her walk Smarty did get a little testy with 2 Golden type dogs dragging the owners around the paths. She was given a correction twice and on the 3rd pass she didn't even look their way.

9th Lesson, Day 68

Interesting but uneventful class today. No Depends needed. We had 6 dogs, a 9 month old Boxer rescue with almost perfect manners (Danny had him for 10 days once his broken leg was healed, 2 months ago), Danny’s Pit Bull, Bullet, totally perfect manners, Jolie the Sheltie, and 2 nonchalant Rottweilers, semi OK manners. Smarty did drool a little today. Everyone was off leash most of the time playing ball and being recalled. Bullet, Jolie, and one of the Rotties chased the ball, the Boxer chased the other dogs, Smarty and the older Rottie just watched. Smarty does not play with other dogs, except a little with Galen and my son’s Standard Poodle. She hasn’t since she was a very young dog. 

She did her recalls slow but perfectly, she did her stays as other played all around her. Not one inkling of aggression towards anyone. We had to do “place” with 2 dogs on the raised bed. Smarty did not like this one bit but she and the Boxer shared the small space for a few minutes. When the Boxer broke and moved off she stretched out like she owned the bed. Her heeling was good but a little lagging off leash. The figure 8’s or serpentine were with all dogs sitting and down and one or two dogs weaving. She was fine.

For Smarty this class was a form of conditioning. She was exposed to large dogs moving around her, running in different directions and not giving her a second thought. They didn’t hurt her. She didn’t jump, run or give any fearful indications. The Boxer and Bullet smelled her several times. Half way through the class the drooling had totally stopped. Although she did not play with the dogs she didn’t try to leave the area. She stayed close to me except when she was put on a stay.


----------



## Pixiesmom

I'd love to see this in person-it sounds fascinating!
Good job Smarty- keep the momentum going.


----------



## good buddy

SMARTY said:


> Thanks everyone for the encouragement, we are moving on.
> Last night on her walk Smarty did get a little testy with 2 Golden type dogs dragging the owners around the paths. She was given a correction twice and on the 3rd pass she didn't even look their way.
> 
> 9th Lesson, Day 68
> 
> Interesting but uneventful class today. No Depends needed. We had 6 dogs, a 9 month old Boxer rescue with almost perfect manners (Danny had him for 10 days once his broken leg was healed, 2 months ago), Danny's Pit Bull, Bullet, totally perfect manners, Jolie the Sheltie, and 2 nonchalant Rottweilers, semi OK manners. Smarty did drool a little today. Everyone was off leash most of the time playing ball and being recalled. Bullet, Jolie, and one of the Rotties chased the ball, the Boxer chased the other dogs, Smarty and the older Rottie just watched. Smarty does not play with other dogs, except a little with Galen and my son's Standard Poodle. She hasn't since she was a very young dog.
> 
> She did her recalls slow but perfectly, she did her stays as other played all around her. Not one inkling of aggression towards anyone. We had to do "place" with 2 dogs on the raised bed. Smarty did not like this one bit but she and the Boxer shared the small space for a few minutes. When the Boxer broke and moved off she stretched out like she owned the bed. Her heeling was good but a little lagging off leash. The figure 8's or serpentine were with all dogs sitting and down and one or two dogs weaving. She was fine.
> 
> For Smarty this class was a form of conditioning. She was exposed to large dogs moving around her, running in different directions and not giving her a second thought. They didn't hurt her. She didn't jump, run or give any fearful indications. The Boxer and Bullet smelled her several times. Half way through the class the drooling had totally stopped. Although she did not play with the dogs she didn't try to leave the area. She stayed close to me except when she was put on a stay.


Glad no Depends were needed LOL! I hate to hear that she was doing the drooling again, but it's good she stopped during the class. Hopefully that means she was relaxing some. I would imagine with enough positive encounters with other dogs she would begin to become less anxious. Has Danny said anything to that effect?


----------



## SMARTY

Pixiesmom said:


> I'd love to see this in person-it sounds fascinating!
> Good job Smarty- keep the momentum going.


I mentioned this to our class yesterday about doing a video for the thread. The problem is not making it, but my ability to get it from my iPhone or camera to YouTube or the forum. I don't know how and have no kids here to do it for me.


----------



## SMARTY

good buddy said:


> Glad no Depends were needed LOL! I hate to hear that she was doing the drooling again, but it's good she stopped during the class. Hopefully that means she was relaxing some. I would imagine with enough *positive encounters with other dogs she would begin to become less anxious. Has Danny said anything to that effect*?


To quote Danny "Exposure and change is so important to build confidence". But Danny's main focus is still on me so this is for me as much as for her. I humanized her to the point she does not want to associate with her species. He is right, now we are correcting me and her habits I let develop.

She may never be a dog's dog or have fun with the a pack, that's ok, as long as she can go out in public, be comfortable and not go into attack mode.


----------



## KSC

Hi Sandi - I've followed your thread and being very new to dog ownership I've not asked too many questions - I do have one though - Given that Kipling is just one I want to be aware of any habits we might form that would take us to the place that you refer to as 'humanizing to the point of not wanting to associate with the species' and I apologize if you've already listed this - maybe you can just point me there - my question is what specifically would you have been doing that humanized Smarty? Thank you! I appreciate learning from your journey.


----------



## SMARTY

KSC said:


> Hi Sandi - I've followed your thread and being very new to dog ownership I've not asked too many questions - I do have one though - Given that Kipling is just one I want to be aware of any habits we might form that would take us to the place that you refer to as 'humanizing to the point of not wanting to associate with the species' and I apologize if you've already listed this - maybe you can just point me there - my question is what specifically would you have been doing that humanized Smarty? Thank you! I appreciate learning from your journey.


Sylvia, I treated Smarty like a person, she slept on my bed, and I let her interrupt conversations with her sit ups and dancing, gave into her every little whim. I would move over on the sofa so she could be by the arm, gave treats when she went to the refrigerator, opened the door for her to go out any time she wanted not just when she needed, stopped what I was doing if she brought me a toy to play with. Whatever or whenever Smarty wanted she got.

Through my love and total enjoyment of her she was allowed to have unearned treats and praise. She got to where she did what she wanted on her time schedule not mine. She had total control of our door and house or so she thought. She was a maniac when anyone came, in fact when guest moved form one level to the other she was so bad my DD said she had short term memory loss. This was supposed to be a joke but it is not.

She became the leader of people, because she is so darn cute acting the way she does. According to my trainer dogs are not happy in this leadership roll they need boundaries and leadership.


----------



## KSC

Thank you - very helpful summary - of course I recognize some of these things - so easy to do but having this listed like this reminds me that we are not being harsh when Kipling doesn't get to call the shots....I will keep these things in mind that's for sure!


----------



## SMARTY

Sylvia, I forgot to add Smarty has always done and accomplished everything we set out to do. She was a happy little camper to around a year or so. Her behavior at home didn't bother me at all except for when guest were here. Signs were there with the first drool. I blamed then on a couple of things at agility class. It was not until the leash aggression totally interfered with what I wanted and nothing I was doing with other trainers or classes corrected it did I seek someone like my trainer.


----------



## KSC

What did she do when guests came? Happy maniac or fearful or...

Kipling is always over the moon happy to greet new people and jumps etc. We work on managing it depending on the person. Lately, with new people, we crate until the people have greeted us etc. He sees them and he's quiet in the crate. Then when we let him out he goes through an elaborate, joyful, OMG I love you greeting routine. If people don't like it we manage it by picking him up or using his leash (stepping on it) to settle him. He is allowed to continue greeting if people are ok with it...should I be considering a more firm approach? (I don't want to hijack your thread so will not continue the questions...just wondered about this one)

Yesterday I had a camera crew in the house for 2 hours - about 12 people Kipling had never met and all kinds of equipment. He was in the crate when they arrived. They began set up all around him and he did not peep once. I was so pleased. I thought he'd bark but he didn't. Then I held him and we watched the action. He was so good!


----------



## krandall

Sandi, (and other people too, for that matter)

I get Susan Garrett's e-mail newsletter each week, and she just posted links to two blogs she recently wrote on stress in dogs. I thought you all might be interested in them. I think they fit in nicely with what we've been talking about here with Smarty.

http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2...mans-weirdly-inappropriate-reinforcement.html

http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2...ore-than-just-desserts-spelled-backwards.html


----------



## SMARTY

KSC said:


> What did she do when guests came? Happy maniac or fearful or...


At first Smarty was just a loud greeter. Then it was charging the door barking and doing her Tasmanian devil routine of she is big and bad. Once the guests are in she would carry on for a short while.

I'm no trainer but have seen and been told you have to claim the door space. Dogs can be door bells but once you give them the quiet word they should back off and be quiet. Smarty is no longer allowed to go to the door at all. She has to stay around 5 feet from it, even in going to potty this is the rule until I give her the word "free".


----------



## SMARTY

Karen thanks for the links. I wish I could find something that would take Smarty's mind away from the stress. If she were more playful this might help. Next lesson I am taking her Fox.


----------



## krandall

SMARTY said:


> Karen thanks for the links. I wish I could find something that would take Smarty's mind away from the stress. If she were more playful this might help. Next lesson I am taking her Fox.


I know that's an added challenge with her. But I was interested to see that Susan Garrett was essentially saying the same thing that Danny seems to tell you... that a lot of a dog's anxiety is human-created or at least human-sustained.


----------



## KSC

SMARTY said:


> At first Smarty was just a loud greeter. Then it was charging the door barking and doing her Tasmanian devil routine of she is big and bad. Once the guests are in she would carry on for a short while.
> 
> I'm no trainer but have seen and been told you have to claim the door space. Dogs can be door bells but once you give them the quiet word they should back off and be quiet. Smarty is no longer allowed to go to the door at all. She has to stay around 5 feet from it, even in going to potty this is the rule until I give her the word "free".


Makes sense...thank you


----------



## good buddy

SMARTY said:


> At first Smarty was just a loud greeter. Then it was charging the door barking and doing her Tasmanian devil routine of she is big and bad. Once the guests are in she would carry on for a short while.
> 
> I'm no trainer but have seen and been told you have to claim the door space. Dogs can be door bells but once you give them the quiet word they should back off and be quiet. Smarty is no longer allowed to go to the door at all. She has to stay around 5 feet from it, even in going to potty this is the rule until I give her the word "free".


I thought I was doing ok with mine since my front room is gated off so they can't even get to the front door. (It's gated because my birds are in that room.) Wrong! Marley charges the gate! :doh: I've also heard that they get worse the closer they can get to the object.

I'm trying to train mine to stay back 5' from the gate and they must all sit or down and stay quiet. They are starting to get it with plenty of coaching but just when it's boring old us. Guests are still way too exciting.


----------



## SMARTY

krandall said:


> I know that's an added challenge with her. But I was interested to see that Susan Garrett was essentially saying the same thing that Danny seems to tell you... that a lot of a dog's anxiety is human-created or at least human-sustained.


I remember the first time I noticed Smarty's drooling she was probably around a year or so. We were visiting a show to cheer friends on, she was not entered. I stopped at a vendor's booth on the way out and noticed how wet around her mouth was. I assumed she had eaten something and taught she could have gotten some poison, it was that bad. I picked her up, loving her, rushed to the bathroom to wash out her mouth and see if there was a something I could do. Never did I associate it with Stress, she had grown up at shows. My past life had been with dogs that nothing phased.

Everything I did that day was wrong, from having thoughts of loosing her to poison to babying her. Then we noticed drooling at her agility classes, but it was hot summer. So off to the shade, let her rest, etc, etc. No wonder she is a mess&#8230;&#8230;..


----------



## SMARTY

good buddy said:


> I'm trying to train mine to stay back 5' from the gate and they must all sit or down and stay quiet. *They are starting to get it with plenty of coaching but just when it's boring old u*s. Guests are still way too exciting.


Mine, too, but I encouraged them to greet DH when he came in or they saw him coming up from the barn.......They were so happy doing this and it would have been fine if I had used some form of command and training to end the excitement.

I have to admit other than guest coming over none of Smarty's home behavior bothers me at all. I love the happy little dog that greets me at the door but now I have to ignore her, walk right past her and can't even speak to her until she sits calmly. It is working but not nearly as much fun.


----------



## good buddy

SMARTY said:


> I remember the first time I noticed Smarty's drooling she was probably around a year or so. We were visiting a show to cheer friends on, she was not entered. I stopped at a vendor's booth on the way out and noticed how wet around her mouth was. I assumed she had eaten something and taught she could have gotten some poison, it was that bad. I picked her up, loving her, rushed to the bathroom to wash out her mouth and see if there was a something I could do. Never did I associate it with Stress, she had grown up at shows. My past life had been with dogs that nothing phased.
> 
> Everything I did that day was wrong, from having thoughts of loosing her to poison to babying her. Then we noticed drooling at her agility classes, but it was hot summer. So off to the shade, let her rest, etc, etc. No wonder she is a mess&#8230;&#8230;..


But neither of those things are your fault. Any of us would've thought the same in your position! So by Susan Garrett's article it's saying that you "anchored" her in that fearful state? What else could you have done to NOT anchor it then?

Rufus had a bad episode of drooling on the day we went to see the puppies at Kimberly's prior to getting Marley. He totally stressed out and spent alot of that time up on the couch avoiding the puppies. He was drooling so bad he had bubbles on his mouth. I didn't focus on him much, I was too interested in seeing all the puppies and of course a few weeks later we brought Marley home. Did I do something wrong? or right? I don't understand how you're supposed to handle the stress except NOT to make a huge fuss over them.


----------



## SMARTY

good buddy said:


> Rufus had a bad episode of drooling on the day we went to see the puppies at Kimberly's prior to getting Marley. He totally stressed out and spent alot of that time up on the couch avoiding the puppies. He was drooling so bad he had bubbles on his mouth. I didn't focus on him much, I was too interested in seeing all the puppies and of course a few weeks later we brought Marley home. Did I do something wrong? or right? I don't understand how you're supposed to handle the stress except NOT to make a huge fuss over them.


That is how Smarty was when I brought in the group of 3 rescues. She stayed on the wall of our porch and was a wet mess. You probably handled it correctly it's very hard to get them into a positive state when they are like this and in this situation. I understand if they are already in a playful mode, something happens, and then move on. But when it is like the Rufus and Smarty episodes I don't know how to give a positive response. We are working on exposure to the problem or issue and my change to being calm and confident. Before her next dog encounter I am going to give her ½ dinner and no breakfast so she may be food motivated.


----------



## krandall

SMARTY said:


> I remember the first time I noticed Smarty's drooling she was probably around a year or so. We were visiting a show to cheer friends on, she was not entered. I stopped at a vendor's booth on the way out and noticed how wet around her mouth was. I assumed she had eaten something and taught she could have gotten some poison, it was that bad. I picked her up, loving her, rushed to the bathroom to wash out her mouth and see if there was a something I could do. Never did I associate it with Stress, she had grown up at shows. My past life had been with dogs that nothing phased.
> 
> Everything I did that day was wrong, from having thoughts of loosing her to poison to babying her. Then we noticed drooling at her agility classes, but it was hot summer. So off to the shade, let her rest, etc, etc. No wonder she is a mess&#8230;&#8230;..


Well, you CERTAINLY can't blame yourself for the first time!!! If you'd never seen her do it before, of course you'd worry that she might have gotten into something. Don't be S-O-O hard on yourself. You've raise Galen too, who had a much harder start in life, and isn't neurotic in the least. So it's not all you. At least PART of it is Smarty's innate temperament. That doesn't mean that you don't want to learn how to handle that and teach her to be calm as well as possible, but I think you blame yourself too much for Smarty's problems.

For a number of years I had a horse who was a true nut case. As sweet as sweet could be and incredibly talented. But prone to panic attacks and, as a result, HIGHLY unreliable in the show ring. I worked with that horse for 7 years, partly because I knew how talented he was if I could just get past his anxiety, and partly because I had just gotten really attached to the big dope. (and NO ONE else would have put up with him!) During the same time, I was working with many other peoples' horses, and THEY weren't crazy, but I still blamed myself (at least in part) for Merlin's problems, thinking that it was because he was MY horse, and I was probably trying too hard with him. It was only after he died and I bought a new horse that I started to see the situation with him more clearly. I really did EVERYTHING that anyone could have done for him. My young horse, Oliver, (who is now 17!!!<g>) was so different. Even at 2 years old he was as level headed as it's possible to be from day one. He was a breeze to train.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, continue to do your best with Smarty, and try everything you can. But at the same time, don't be TOO hard on yourself. Every animal is different, and some are inherently more anxious than others. There is only so much we can do to change that, and you've already achieved a LOT in a fairly short period of time. I think Smarty will continue to improve with time and patience!


----------



## SMARTY

Karen I'm not beating myself up about Smarty, but with reflection I see where most of this started and was not handled correctly. My experience with other breeds did not prepare me for what could happen with having a one on one, on the furniture, super cute, little dog. I’ve seen and heard of so many little house dogs with the same issues that are “just that way”. But my exposing her flaws and mine may enlighten others to the small dog syndrome and help avoid some of my pitfalls.

Galen probably would never have these issues, totally different temperament.

My nut case, smoothest riding, best trail horse is still in my pasture at 28.


----------



## krandall

SMARTY said:


> My nut case, smoothest riding, best trail horse is still in my pasture at 28.


Well, if Merlin were still alive, I'm sure he'd still be here... (no one else would have wanted him:wink But Oliver is a WHOLE lot easier to live with. Though I have to say, just as you say about Smarty in the house, Merlin had great "pet quality" in the barn and pasture. It was just when you took him out of his protective "bubble" that he turned into a total looney tune.


----------



## SMARTY

*10th lesson, day 74*
Interesting Class&#8230;..Today we were with big young dogs, in fact big puppies. We had an 11 week old German Shepherd and a 4 month old Great Dane. Jolie the sheltie was also loose, Danny had his Pit Bull and Malinois in his truck but they did not participate in my class.

Today's lesson was for patience; the two big puppies have just started their training. They arrived 30 minutes apart, first was the German Shepherd who is all puppy but is going to be huge, probably weighs at least 30 lbs now. This is his second lesson, he was so interested in Smarty and Jolie, all he want to do was get to them at first. Smarty is no fan of dogs over, under and around her. She did a mean growl and lunged forward. This we corrected. Jolie would snarl, show teeth but not move towards the puppies. This is OK. Teaching a worrisome puppy manner is very acceptable, going after one is not. Smarty did her off leash heeling, sits, down and come. She had to intermingle with the pups when they were on free time, which was a lot according to Smarty. After the first growl was corrected, she got the message and would only give a little growl when the pups were too rough or on her. After a couple of times the pups backed off of Smarty and Jolie. "Big mistake many people make when they bring in a new puppy is not letting the older dog teach them manners." By the end of the class she was just ignoring these big clowns. No drooling today.

Hav class will travel&#8230;&#8230;.next week we will be at a 9 AM class with some German Shorthaired Pointers, Danny said this should be interesting. No idea what that means. I just know he is trying to expose her to as many dogs and situations as possible. I did ask how many more weeks and Danny said," be patient YOU are beginning to get there." This is as close to a compliment as we have gotten.

Second part of our day was a visit to a nursing home. My Mom was going with some friends and I met her there. Of course she wanted Smarty to come in and the nurse/attendant said it was fine. This is when Smarty Shines in the company of people not dogs, sometime I forget this. I was so proud of her. She visited, let everyone pet her and did her tricks for treats. Many of the residents held and loved on her. They asked if she could come back. I may have to get her into therapy dog training program; except for their rule, "Reaction to other dogs" she would have this certification in the bag.

Our walks this week have been close to perfect. One dog one correction and the other dogs were of no interest to her. We are getting there.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

How wonderful for you Sandi and Smarty. I don't know if I could do all you have done, but I am surely glad you are sharing with us!!


----------



## Sheri

Good to hear how this one went, I'm glad she did well, and then had fun at the nursing home! You have a lot of determination and I sure admire you!


----------



## Pixiesmom

I love reading these updates. She seems to be starting to turn the corner. I'm here rooting for you guys.


----------



## krandall

Great work, Sandi!


----------



## ama0722

I just have to post a brag for Sandi and Smarty. This weekend Sandi came to watch agility and brought the girls. For those who have never been involved with agility, it is amazing the energy the dogs pick up on. I will say Belle goes from a one in energy to a ten (Ann got to see her in action!) Smarty did very well. It is obvious how much training they have really done and what positive effects it has had.

P.S. Belle will be living with Sandi and Danny starting next month! HAHAHA


----------



## good buddy

After all this time Sandi you must be getting hungry for results and those compliments! I'm glad you heard you are getting there.. that had to feel good! I'm looking forward to hearing how Smarty does this week with the Pointers. Good luck! :cheer2:


----------



## marjrc

*"P.S. Belle will be living with Sandi and Danny starting next month! HAHAHA" *

Oh oh ! LOL


----------



## Evye's Mom

I'm sure Sandi will love to read this Amanda. It's the "light at the other end of the tunnel". How rewarding for all her dedication and hard work to read this wonderful compliment.


----------



## SMARTY

ama0722 said:


> I just have to post a brag for Sandi and Smarty. This weekend Sandi came to watch agility and brought the girls. For those who have never been involved with agility, it is amazing the energy the dogs pick up on. I will say Belle goes from a one in energy to a ten (Ann got to see her in action!) Smarty did very well. It is obvious how much training they have really done and what positive effects it has had.
> 
> P.S. Belle will be living with Sandi and Danny starting next month! HAHAHA


Thank you Amanda, Smarty was good. She and Galen are becoming very obedient.

As for Belle, bring her on, remember she has to have a few days at the "Danny Camp" sometime in the beginning. If I was worried about the German Shepherd eating Smarty, just think about Belle. No timid dogs there.

OMGsh, I just thought..... Jolie is a Shelty. That might be very interesting.


----------



## SMARTY

good buddy said:


> After all this time Sandi you must be getting hungry for results and those compliments! I'm glad you heard you are getting there.. that had to feel good! I'm looking forward to hearing how Smarty does this week with the Pointers. Good luck! :cheer2:


Me too, that is tomorrow morning. On Wednesday, Smarty, Galen and I are going to start agility with a Havanese friend who has her own training field. Smarty will be back on the equipment and Galen learning the equipment. I'm excited about that.


----------



## SMARTY

*Lesson 11, day 81*

This was my first "bummer" class with Danny. Absolutely nothing special other than a group of very happy dogs, 3 pointers, a pit bull, a Belgian Malinois and a sheltie chasing balls into the very high grass, returning the balls, sitting and downing on command from across the field and little Smarty hanging around with the people. She was not going to chase that ball, especially into that high grass and get stuff stuck in her coat. She doesn't do that at home and certainly was not going to do it with a pack of big dogs. No coaching would get her to consider such a thing. Even if I went into the high grass she saw not reason to follow. She did let all the dogs sniff her, she smelled a few butts and that was pretty much it. Today had to be for exposure to confusion, the pointers were all over, under and running into dogs and people.

One of the owners commented that Smarty doesn't think she is a dog. Now that is a brilliant person, my response was "what is your point? OF COURSE SHE DOESN'T THINK SHE IS A DOG I WOULDN'T BE HERE IF SHE DID". Why would she think she is a dog: dogs smell, sleep on the floor or in the yard, eat cheap dog food (by the poop I saw), dig in the water bowl and roll in the dirt. They ride in the back of the car or truck in a crate. Heaven forbid. That's the way this group showed up for class.

On the very positive side to today's class, not one growl or any form of aggression to the other dogs. Smarty's heeling sits and downs were close to perfect. But we did have drooling.

Our home work this week is to start the ball training. First a little back ground. Smarty loves to give one good chase to her stuffed animals, she wrestles her 10 inch ball. She plays tug of war with Galen, but she has never had an interest in a small ball to carry in her mouth, not even as a small puppy.

Per Danny, "We have got to put some fun into her training!" Homework... start ball training; I will roll the ball to start. When she touches the ball treat, she moves with the ball treat, any interaction at all with the ball gets a treat. I can rub the smell of something delicious on the ball. That's it for this week. She has to start to play with a small ball. (I can start with her Kong if she will respond to that better).

We are going back to an agility field tomorrow, Galen gets to go too. I hope it is more fun than today with "stick to mom, Smarty".


----------



## good buddy

Bummer. I get what you mean, no headway made, no new realilzations. It's still good exposure for her, but frustrating to hear about the drooling. I'm sorry it wasn't a more rewarding class for you. At least there was no aggression right? With a group of chaotic hounds that sounds pretty good behavior. Thank goodness it's a package deal with Danny and you don't go home wondering why you paid for that class.


----------



## SMARTY

Looking back on yesterday's class with Danny my post was so negative. He always knows what he is doing and I should have realized the hectic confusion was exactly why we were there. Talk about dogs coming toward you, we had them coming in all directions and not one act of aggression from Smarty. That is real progress from where we started and a large part of going through Danny's training was to get to today.

*Today was so much fun*. Smarty and Galen are now in agility class. We're taking instructions from a lady that has Puli's and Havanese. She had her 3 Puli's in large holding pens and her Havanese in X-pens. Her training field is large, half sun half under huge Oak trees so the weather ((90's) was not an issue. We worked each of the girls for 10 or 15 minutes while the other was in an x-pen then switched off.

Little Galen was wonderful. Not one bit of fear on anything. She got the tunnel with no problem and the shoot was like coming out from under the covers. This girl will do anything for a treat.

Now to my proud and shining moment "Smarty was EXCELLENT". She did every piece of equipment like she was there yesterday, not over 2 years ago, no hesitation at all. And guess what? When the instructor got her dogs out to show us a pattern to work on at home, or Smarty being next to them in an x-pen there was not one bit of aggression, and no drooling at all. She came when called, went from place to place with me. She was a happy Havanese. I could have cried I was so proud of her and you could tell by her attitude she really, really enjoyed today.

Now if I can stop being so clumsy and discombobulated we are going to have some fun.


----------



## whitBmom

Yeay!! So happy for you Sandi - good for Smarty. Seems she found what she loves to do. Maybe she might focus on it being her "job" per say and it will bring her much joy and satisfaction. Way to go - I love following this journey.


----------



## Evye's Mom

I got goose bumps reading this. What an accomplishment. Well deserved joyful moment for you and Smarty.


----------



## SMARTY

thank you, this has been a very good day.


----------



## good buddy

Evye's Mom said:


> I got goose bumps reading this. What an accomplishment. Well deserved joyful moment for you and Smarty.


Well said. I'm happy for you!


----------



## marjrc

Wonderful news, Sandi!!! I'm grinning imagining Smarty having a good time. 

I'm not sure I get why it's important that she play with a ball though. If she doesn't like chasing, retrieving, holding a ball then it won't really be "putting fun into her training", no? Won't it be like her doing something just because you're asking her to, but not really enjoying it? I'm curious as to why this is important per Danny.


----------



## SMARTY

marjrc said:


> Wonderful news, Sandi!!! I'm grinning imagining Smarty having a good time.
> 
> I'm not sure I get why it's important that she play with a ball though. If she doesn't like chasing, retrieving, holding a ball then it won't really be "putting fun into her training", no? Won't it be like her doing something just because you're asking her to, but not really enjoying it? I'm curious as to why this is important per Danny.


I'm still grinning too.

Apparently the ball is to increase the pray instinct, dogs with more pray instinct are usually happier and more playful, they do not stress as much. It is a stress reliever, I should have been doing this all along, because Danny mentioned it weeks ago. If I can get her to really want the ball or another toy then that would be used to redirect her energy when she starts to get stressed or drool. Also if I want to do much in obedience then she has to be willing to pick up objects on command.


----------



## ama0722

Sandi- You are rocking it! Even when it is hard work! One thing you might consider doing is cutting a tennis ball and putting food in it (not sure if you want to do this when playing/training with the other dogs though!) They were trying to recruit Dash for flyball and one of these was given to me. He is a ball snob though and doesn't like the tennis balls (even if they squeak!) I didn't pursue it but you might want to try it.

BTW as to previous, I would be scared Belle would have a heart attack around a sheltie 24/7- lol! She can barely handle a few hours at an agility trial (ask Ann how crazy she is with them!)


----------



## Nata

Uh oh I have been reading this whole thread and it took me a few hours but it was worth it. LOL Thank you SO much for sharing this with us, you have been doing a huge work and it seems to start paying off. I have learned a lot! I wish I had such a good trainer like your Danny here.

I was so happy I got tears in my eyes reading about the agility success, it seems to be what Smarty loves to do! So great you had a blast there together!


----------



## SMARTY

ama0722 said:


> Sandi- You are rocking it! Even when it is hard work! One thing you might consider doing is cutting a tennis ball and putting food in it (not sure if you want to do this when playing/training with the other dogs though!) They were trying to recruit Dash for flyball and one of these was given to me. He is a ball snob though and doesn't like the tennis balls (even if they squeak!) I didn't pursue it but you might want to try it.
> 
> BTW as to previous, I would be scared Belle would have a heart attack around a sheltie 24/7- lol! She can barely handle a few hours at an agility trial (ask Ann how crazy she is with them!)


Danny hates tennis balls for dogs. He said they are terrible for their teeth. We are playing with the Chuckit ball. These have held up for a month or more with ball terror Galen. I am rubbing raw meat on it and she will go get it to lick, but not bring it back. The chase for now is good.

You think Belle would have a heart attack, I was worried Danny's dogs would think Smarty was worth living and have a lapse of training and attack her!!!!!!


----------



## SMARTY

Nata said:


> Uh oh I have been reading this whole thread and it took me a few hours but it was worth it. LOL Thank you SO much for sharing this with us, you have been doing a huge work and it seems to start paying off. I have learned a lot! I wish I had such a good trainer like your Danny here.
> 
> I was so happy I got tears in my eyes reading about the agility success, it seems to be what Smarty loves to do! So great you had a blast there together!


Anna-Mari thank you for your comments, as you read in the thread I have "Kissed a lot of Frogs" getting to my dog Prince Danny. I am very lucky that he is in our area and will stay with us until Smarty and I are the best we can be. He has a gift of understanding dogs. He says people try to make dogs complicated and they are not.

Yesterday was the very best day we have had in a very long time.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

SMARTY said:


> thank you, this has been a very good day.


I am so happy for you Sandi, Wish I lived close enough to bring Winston. He really needs more than two walks a day!!!


----------



## SMARTY

It is funny but even DH said Smarty seems more content. At our walks for the last couple of days, she has been just a little dog going for a walk with her friend, Galen.


----------



## marjrc

Sandi, getting Smarty to develop a prey drive towards something you can then use as a tool is a great idea. I get it now. thanks! 

Glad to hear walks are fun! :clap2:


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Just wondering if anyone has any experience iwth the training methods of eric letendre...www.amazingdogtrainingman.com ??? Thanks!


----------



## SMARTY

Flynn, When I filled in name and email then clicked on it nothing happened, it said the site was not available. I always use a fake name that way I know if they sell my name.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

I don't know if I typed it incorrectly, but I did get on, his videos are 1/2 off right now. Dale told me to go to EHow.com and put in his name for some additional information. Thanks, and yes I am finding out Winston is training me!


----------



## SMARTY

No the link did fine, in fact I received an email with his free info, I don't have time to read now.

*UPDATE* Finally read, just advertising his program. I have received several emails from this site this week but have not had time to read


----------



## SMARTY

We haven’t met with Danny in about 2 weeks. Just a conflict in my schedule and his, we'll continue next week with some of his new students. We are still working on the ingrained stress and at times very bad door manners and barking. With lots of in and out company this past week she did not miss one of them coming or going. This is still a work in progress and we will get there……

BUT!!!!!!

Smarty is doing wonderful in so may ways. No issues at all with her meeting and greeting other dogs on our walks. This week there were 9 dogs at Agility in different pens and out at different times. Some stayed on course, some liked to visit. Lots of barking, pen sniffing but not one drool, growl or sign of aggression. A few months ago this would have been an impossible situation for everyone.

Our agility field is partly set up and it is her happy place. All I have to say is “let go to the field” and she is running down the barn path. Even with wet grass she loves it.


----------



## mintchip

:clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::cheer2::cheer2:


----------



## good buddy

Wonderful news! She looks like she's having a blast on the agility equipment too. This is so cool that all the work you've been doing is paying off. It has to be wonderful to be out on the agility field with her and have her able to socialize and not be all drooling or aggressive. :rockon:

I love following your journey and getting a sense of time from you. You know as puppies they will learn to sit or down in mere minutes, so I didn't have a true sense of timeline for working with problem behavior now. It's taking *much* longer than I had anticipated. In dealing with door barking here or lunging on our walks I had originally thought I could correct it in a few weeks and felt that was possibly even over-estimating how long it'd take! It's been hard work for months and were still not there yet, but I have seen some improvement. Seeing the reality of just how long it can take and catologing even the smallest victories help to keep me motivated. Thank you for the update! AND THE PICTURES! They speak volumes! :cheer2:


----------



## SMARTY

Thank you Sally and Christy.

This journey is not over but we have come so far. Danny keeps telling me habits in dogs as in people take time to correct. Dogs do what works, when it no longer works for them they will stop. There was some back sliding this past week. We have so little company or door traffic. Then when we do it is everyone at once for several days. Our home was totally chaotic so getting the corrections in was not as it should have been. I should have kept her in her crate but once the guests are in or out Smarty is a part of the festivities and enjoys everyone.


----------



## good buddy

SMARTY said:


> Thank you Sally and Christy.
> 
> This journey is not over but we have come so far. Danny keeps telling me habits in dogs as in people take time to correct. Dogs do what works, when it no longer works for them they will stop. There was some back sliding this past week. We have so little company or door traffic. Then when we do it is everyone at once for several days. Our home was totally chaotic so getting the corrections in was not as it should have been. I should have kept her in her crate but once the guests are in or out Smarty is a part of the festivities and enjoys everyone.


Does Danny have you crate Smarty when guests arrive? Our home is the same way where there is no door traffic and then alot of it.


----------



## Evye's Mom

good buddy said:


> Our home is the same way where there is no door traffic and then alot of it.


Same here, so the door barking is a challenge to correct.

Sandi, seeing Smarty in those of pictures of her doing agility, just gave me chills. She looks like she is so "HAPPY" and enjoying very much what she is doing. :clap2: :clap2: Not to mention how pretty she is.


----------



## SMARTY

good buddy said:


> Does Danny have you crate Smarty when guests arrive? Our home is the same way where there is no door traffic and then alot of it.


Danny's solution is not crating. I am to be in total control at all times, but last week was a Zoo around here and most of the time I was somewhere else when she started barking. The kids know not to look, no eye contact, not to pet and keep walking when they encounter her at the door. But you still have the few seconds to a minute of loud Smarty.


----------



## SMARTY

Evye's Mom said:


> Same here, so the door barking is a challenge to correct.
> 
> Sandi, seeing Smarty in those of pictures of her doing agility, just gave me chills. She looks like she is so "HAPPY" and enjoying very much what she is doing. :clap2: :clap2: Not to mention how pretty she is.


As much as she hates wet grass she doesn't mind getting wet and dirty at her field. She does love it.


----------



## good buddy

Does Galen join in with the barking?

Here Rufus is terribly excited and both the boys will bark like crazy. Once a person is in and the initial entrance is over Marley loses all interest but Rufus will continue with running around with toys and jumping up for attention. We ignore when we come in. We correct with the "off" command, but it sure is slow going. I've tried putting them in another room when people come and they will dig at the doors and make one heck of a fuss.


----------



## SMARTY

good buddy said:


> Does Galen join in with the barking?
> 
> Here Rufus is terribly excited and both the boys will bark like crazy. Once a person is in and the initial entrance is over Marley loses all interest but Rufus will continue with running around with toys and jumping up for attention. We ignore when we come in. We correct with the "off" command, but it sure is slow going. I've tried putting them in another room when people come and they will dig at the doors and make one heck of a fuss.


Galen has started trying to join in but I give her a firm "NO" and she retreats. I'm not about to let her think this is acceptable.


----------



## Leslie

LOVE those pictures! Just look at her fly!


----------



## Scooter's Family

Those pictures are great Sandi! She looks like she's having so much fun, she must really be a happy girl if she's even willing to get dirty!


----------



## SMARTY

Smarty does hate wet grass, she always has but at the field she doesn't care.


----------



## marjrc

Look at her go! I love seeing a dog having fun. Smarty is in her element when she's doing agility isn't she?  Great progress, Sandi!


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Sandi, is that agility field set up at your home? If so how much room does it take? Smarty is really in her element isn't she? Without your determination she would never be "flying" as she is now! Bless you for being Smarty's newest best friend!!:angel:


----------



## SMARTY

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> Sandi, is that agility field set up at your home? If so how much room does it take? Smarty is really in her element isn't she? Without your determination she would never be "flying" as she is now! Bless you for being Smarty's newest best friend!!:angel:


Yes it is set up in one of our small horse pastures, the field is about 2 acres but the equipment only takes a small amount of that space. Smarty does love it.


----------



## Evye's Mom

Again, more motivation Sandi. I have been checking out agility starter kits. I thought Bentley would love this. Today we put up a broom stick handle on two coffee containers. Bentley kept running around it much to my surprise. :Cry: More to my surprise......short, stubby, uncoordinated Evye kept jumping over the broom stick. :frusty:


----------



## ama0722

Sandi- She looks like she is enjoying it! Pretty soon I will be seeing you on weekends. Come on we need another non black and white Havanese to prove all colors can do agility- lol!

Sharlene- use them against each other  It works extremely well in my house except for the Dasher howling (he is never the one I want to motivate either!)


----------



## SMARTY

Someone PM me about where to buy agility equipment. I got mine on Craig's list, very good construction as the seller had Irish Setters and was an engineer. Clean Run is the only place that has been recommended to me but I’m sure there are others and many people make there own. Most of it is just PVC, fittings and tape.


----------



## Evye's Mom

I just checked out the Clean Run website. Nice store.


----------



## ama0722

Nice store but also pretty expensive if you are just thinking of trying it and you may very well decide it isn't for you next week (or even better you get the bug and I have more trial buddies-hint hint!) You could also try affordable agility. Since most havanese are under 11" (I have met all of your dogs and can say this) for AKC they would jump 8" jumps. Since I only have 8" dogs, I am lazy and cheap and only make 8" jumps.

I recently got a chute for $12 at toys r us. They carry the "AKC equipment" not like regulation but cheap playful stuff. However, it works to have fun with. I have and probably always will just try random obstacles as well. Dora learned to jump with brick pavers and curtain rods  Dash has done extremely well and I don't think I have ever set up more than 6 obstacles in my own yard and I just got my first piece of contact equipment (home made teeter!) Most of our work is ground work and just playing around in short bursts but I think it keeps it fun and keeps them interested and it gets me to work on what I really need to work on (my handling!).


----------



## Evye's Mom

Absolutely not going to rush into anything. For one, it's too darn hot outside right now. The other being we will be having our backyard torn up in a couple of weeks and lastly taking one-dog-at-a-time, getting through Evye's classes, then Bentley can have a turn at ???something???.


----------



## SMARTY

ama0722 said:


> Since I only have 8" dogs, *I am lazy and cheap and only make 8" jumps*.!).


Me, too. Had I not found this great deal and have the perfect area for my own field I would have made a couple of jumps and that would have been it.


----------



## Missy

Just caught up on a couple of pages Sandi. You and smarty are doing awesome work. Thanks again for keeping us updated and sharing danny's techniques.


----------



## ama0722

Sandi- you hit the jackpot! If I only had a pasture!


----------



## krandall

ama0722 said:


> Nice store but also pretty expensive if you are just thinking of trying it and you may very well decide it isn't for you next week (or even better you get the bug and I have more trial buddies-hint hint!) You could also try affordable agility. Since most havanese are under 11" (I have met all of your dogs and can say this) for AKC they would jump 8" jumps. Since I only have 8" dogs, I am lazy and cheap and only make 8" jumps.


Just my luck, Kodi is about 11 1/4"! So he'll have to jump 12", even for AKC. The good thing is that I think that means he'll jump the same height whether it's AKC or USDAA. So far, he's only jumping 8", but he's only been doing this for a month.<g>

I don't think 12" will be a problem though... the trainer had us jumping on a circle, and he put one jump at 12" for Kodi and the other little dog, and left the others at 8". Neither of the little guys had any trouble with the single 12" jump. The place it might make a difference is that he's at the very bottom of his size range, which, if it's like horses, means that he might have trouble with the taller dogs beating him on time.


----------



## ama0722

Karen-Oh that kind of stinks but I doubt you are gonna give him back! <BG> I am at a trial right now and there are actually more 8" dogs than 12" dogs. Regardless of size of Havanese, they aren't the fastest breed (my opinion but I bet most honest people would agree!). Structurally they can't keep up with the papillions (8") or big papillions/ little shelties (12") but a lot of times they knock bars <BG> so you can beat them. But AKC is getting rid of the qualifyers soon so it won't matter much anyway. Agility is way more about you and your dog v. you competing with other dogs especially when you get to the excellent level (I am still struggling to be the best handler for my dog and I am thinking this will take years!)

P.S. Isabelle at 7.5" jumps the same as Dash/Dora 10.25-10.5". If she was on, she would beat them however, she is hardly ever on


----------



## SMARTY

krandall said:


> , means that he might have trouble with the taller dogs* beating him on time*.


You are thinking about time, I just want to make a clean run, not trip and have Smarty and Galen stay in the ring.


----------



## krandall

ama0722 said:


> Karen-Oh that kind of stinks but I doubt you are gonna give him back! <BG> I am at a trial right now and there are actually more 8" dogs than 12" dogs. Regardless of size of Havanese, they aren't the fastest breed (my opinion but I bet most honest people would agree!). Structurally they can't keep up with the papillions (8") or big papillions/ little shelties (12") but a lot of times they knock bars <BG> so you can beat them. But AKC is getting rid of the qualifyers soon so it won't matter much anyway. Agility is way more about you and your dog v. you competing with other dogs especially when you get to the excellent level (I am still struggling to be the best handler for my dog and I am thinking this will take years!)
> 
> P.S. Isabelle at 7.5" jumps the same as Dash/Dora 10.25-10.5". If she was on, she would beat them however, she is hardly ever on


Yeah, I'm not really worrying about Kodi's height being the deciding factor! He's got me as a bigger handicap!


----------



## SMARTY

*Day 117, Week 17*
The last couple of weeks we have worked with a young German Shepherd, Jolie the Sheltie and the cutest little 18 month old Bichon Frise. I told Smarty to look out I just might trade her in for little Lola. This girl has a great attitude and loves everyone, and her trim is superb. I am contemplating visiting her groomer.

:focus: Everything is going really well, no relapses, no aggression and no drooling in any of her classes. In fact today we worked Smarty totally off lead. She was almost perfect in all commands. Sits, downs, stays and come were about as good as it gets. I still need to practice on her straight sits and stand for exam before entering an obedience trail but she has the basics now.

Danny wisdom&#8230;&#8230;Danny does not believe in the "Stay" command, sit means sit until you release, down is down until you release. "Free" is free. I've always used the stay command, but his new students don't.

Danny came over to the house after our class this morning to see the agility field set up and to witness Smarty's lack of door manners. Of course once she saw who it was :hail: she was Miss Congeniality, quiet as a mouse, sugar wouldn't melt in her mouth she was so sweet and Galen ran to get on the back of the sofa. :behindsofa:

I cannot figure out what he does or doesn't do, he just walked in and stood there and my dogs were perfectly mannered. I've decided to invite him to all of our gatherings, like a new member of the family, maybe that way there could be a little peace and quiet around the door.

His suggestion was to set up a "place", work on the place command. Have someone ring the bell or knock on the door, send both dogs to place once they have been told Quiet. Barking is OK, but once you give them the Quiet command that is what you expect. Do not let them remain in the door area. Sound so easy when he says it.

Danny one morning, Agility instruction another morning each week. Agility is where I hope Smarty will eventually shine. The heat is slowing us down but we are gaining on the fundamentals. Both of my girls are much better than their handler (me), getting my moves and directions correct seems to be our main obstacle.


----------



## SMARTY

*Not there yet&#8230;&#8230;.*

A nice quiet week end was what we were having. I was doing a little yard work and heard Smarty start her Tasmanian Bark, I saw the deer. Smarty stopped at her underground fence line but was running around having a fit. Then Galen takes off after the deer I thought, no way, she was headed to a very large Doberman. Now I hear a little voice calling "Chap" , in my biggest voice I shout, "Doberman in my yard", as I'm calling Galen back, thank goodness she is obedient, at the same time I'm trying to catch the running back and forth guard dog Smarty.

Finally the deer runs off, holding in each arm one "let me at them" and one very quiet Havanese. A voice comes through the woods "are both of my dogs there". No just the one!. "There are two Dobermans, always together". My heart takes a plunge and I am headed to the house with my girls in arms. The second Doberman appears.

The owner comes through the woods, his dogs head it the opposite direction of him towards me and the girls. I realize the Dobs are not being aggressive, just playful, but guess who is still having a fit, Smarty. From the window I see the Dobs leaving through the woods with their owner. Smarty now spends every second of her outside time smelling where the visitors have been.

In her defense, Smarty did let me catch her fairly easily, I'm sure I was not calm and assertive. My vision of her going after one of those large dogs and having them defend themselves from her gives me shivers.

This is another thing Danny and I will work on this week. How to calm an excited mind, when you are near panic yourself? Any suggestions?


----------



## Scooter's Family

Who was it and what the [email protected]!! were they doing in your yard???


----------



## mintchip

:grouphug:I'm glad they are OK!:grouphug: 
That would give me the "shivers" and more. I was chased by a dobe when I was 5 and still remember that [email protected]#$%^ one. I have friends with some and they are sweet as can be. (in fact one is a good friend of Oliver and Comet) 

Anyway when I need to be calm I take a few deep breaths. (or at least I try) I look forward to hearing other calming suggestions


----------



## SMARTY

Scooter's Family said:


> Who was it and what the [email protected]!! were they doing in your yard???


It was my new next door neighbor. I didn't know they had dogs much less two. Remember I can't see anyone else from our house and they can't see us?


----------



## ama0722

Sandi- yikes! I don't know how you calm your mind. You can do the think of how someone mighty and powerful would act in this situation but I don't think that would work for me in that case. My dogs would probably be more aggressive as I would be as well. The worst thing is someone with big powerful dogs without control on them!


----------



## Evye's Mom

I give you credit for managing to at least react. I wish I could say I would have done the same thing if I saw 2 Dobermans approaching us but I would have fainted right there in my tracks !!!! I think you will have a hard time finding someone to disagree with how you handled the situation. Without knowing these dogs I think your panic reaction to protect your girls the way you did was mere mother's instinct.

If it makes you feel any better, Saturday, DH, Evye and I were standing talking to a couple. I heard the woman say "here comes Happy." I didn't know who or what happy was. I turn my head and all I see was this black blur of a dog charging at Evye. My panic response was to swirl her up and sandwich her between my DH and I. Of course, Evye was barking her fool head off. The "attacker" was a 6-month-old Boston Terrier !!! who was just extremely excited to see another dog. :redface: I think we react just like we would if it were our children when we thought danger was pending...protect...shoot first, ask questions later.

I'm sure you were scared to death.


----------



## SMARTY

I was definitely in Mama protection mode. The strange thing is never once did the guy say, his dogs were harmless or that he was sorry for the trouble. I got his number from the Realtor and left a message. I want to know if he has put up a fence or do I need to worry every time my girls go out.

We don’t want to get off on the wrong foot but I will report him to Animal Control. There are leash laws here. Smarty will bark like crazy then sweet little Galen will run right up to them. The Dobermans may be very friendly but they are so big next to my girls.


----------



## SMARTY

I just had a very good conversation with my neighbor. He said he was so flustered yesterday that his dogs had left the property that he didn’t even introduce himself. 

The Dobermans are 9 months old, blues. They are show dogs and have never run off before. They probably have never had a chance to chase a deer before either. We are going to meet at the park for the dogs to get acquainted, but do not want them to be neighbor friends visiting each other.

He is putting in an invisible fence and I hope it is the same brand as mine, that way the dogs will get a double zap if they cross mine too.


----------



## mintchip

:hug: Good luck!
Glad every thing seems to be working out well............ :hug:


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

SMARTY said:


> *Not there yet&#8230;&#8230;.*
> 
> A nice quiet week end was what we were having. I was doing a little yard work and heard Smarty start her Tasmanian Bark, I saw the deer. Smarty stopped at her underground fence line but was running around having a fit. Then Galen takes off after the deer I thought, no way, she was headed to a very large Doberman. Now I hear a little voice calling "Chap" , in my biggest voice I shout, "Doberman in my yard", as I'm calling Galen back, thank goodness she is obedient, at the same time I'm trying to catch the running back and forth guard dog Smarty.
> 
> Finally the deer runs off, holding in each arm one "let me at them" and one very quiet Havanese. A voice comes through the woods "are both of my dogs there". No just the one!. "There are two Dobermans, always together". My heart takes a plunge and I am headed to the house with my girls in arms. The second Doberman appears.
> 
> The owner comes through the woods, his dogs head it the opposite direction of him towards me and the girls. I realize the Dobs are not being aggressive, just playful, but guess who is still having a fit, Smarty. From the window I see the Dobs leaving through the woods with their owner. Smarty now spends every second of her outside time smelling where the visitors have been.
> 
> In her defense, Smarty did let me catch her fairly easily, I'm sure I was not calm and assertive. My vision of her going after one of those large dogs and having them defend themselves from her gives me shivers.
> 
> This is another thing Danny and I will work on this week. How to calm an excited mind, when you are near panic yourself? Any suggestions?


Yes, do exactly what you did, save the dogs first and worry about proper reactions later...that way you are never sorry for anything except being too quick to react! :-} I always say better safe than sorry!! I think you did exactly right....what Danny thinks, well who knows, but I would prefer to try it under more controlled circumstances! Hugs


----------



## SMARTY

*One step closer*
Smarty and I went to the Perry, GA agility trial Saturday to observe (not to be confused with entered). We saw the amazing team of Amanda and Dasher in their 2 classes. There is a big brag here but I'll let Amanda have the honors.

Smarty was officially measured twice to get her height card to show in the 8" class. :cheer2: Now when we get our training and dependability under control we will enter a show. I did get to watch a novice class which gave me hope. Everyone is not so perfect when they start.

PS, I was very proud of my girl today. Danny has been worth every penny and every second of time. Smarty did not drool one bit, no stress, she enjoyed the day and so did I.


----------



## good buddy

SMARTY said:


> *One step closer*...PS, I was very proud of my girl today. Danny has been worth every penny and every second of time. Smarty did not drool one bit, no stress, she enjoyed the day and so did I.


:whoo: :whoo: Grest news! It's so nice to hear she's not stressing out and you are headed towards your dream with her.


----------



## marjrc

That is fantastic, Sandi!! eace:


----------



## Evye's Mom

Ditto Marj. Fantastic !!!! :clap2:


----------



## SMARTY

Controlling Excitement…..

This week we are working on something that I knew but let slide. Smarty plays in a noisy excited state with Galen and with us. It looks like she is killing Galen until you see Galen come back on the attack. She is not hurting her but then it can get a little more aggressive and Galen runs to Mama or under her low safety table. This only last for a minute or two then Galen is pouncing on Smarty.

For now the girls are crated when we are not home (control the environment while training). Any noisy really rough play is halted for a few seconds by hands or voice command. Let Smarty go to a calmer mind set. I’m going to use the words “Calm down” as that comes naturally in these situations. By having control over the smaller excitements and me staying calm (not running after her screaming like a banshee) in emergency situation we should gain more control.

Again Danny said “Sandi needs to be in control of all situations not Smarty.” 

Smarty is probably so confused between Danny and Agility……get excited….. play with the ball, get your pray drive going……Jump that jump, run have a good time…….."now calm down"…..I’m glad she really loves me, a husband confused this way would have left by now.


----------



## Narwyn

SMARTY said:


> Smarty is probably so confused between Danny and Agility&#8230;&#8230;get excited&#8230;.. play with the ball, get your pray drive going&#8230;&#8230;Jump that jump, run have a good time&#8230;&#8230;.."now calm down"&#8230;..I'm glad she really loves me, a husband confused this way would have left by now.


I laughed out loud at your last comment, I think you're right!

If you ever want to see a dog turn on and off, watch a police dog in action. They will rev up on command, get the bad guy, and then turn off and chomp quietly on their toy immediately after, even if there is still chaos going on. Of course most of us will never achieve anything near that level of polish on a dog, but, it's impressive!

Don't feel bad about confusing her, she will just learn that there are times to be excited, and times not to be. I continue cheering for you!


----------



## marjrc

I agree with K, and this will only teach Smarty, even more, how important it is for her to look to you for cues and feedback.


----------



## lanabanana

*Sandi, come back!!!*

I just spent two days reading this thread in its entirety and I'm left hanging. It's two months later. What's happening with Smarty? It's like getting involved with a soap opera and then it goes on hiatus for the summer. I enjoyed reading every post on this thread and found it all to be helpful and really indicative of what's involved with shaping behavior. I am new to dog training and this was all very, very helpful. Thanks so much for taking the time to do it.

Alanna


----------



## Sheri

Alana, This thread ended over a year ago... But, it's full of good stuff, isn't it?


----------



## lanabanana

Oh, of course! 2010....2011.....what's a few months among friends?


----------



## krandall

Sandi isn't on the forum anymore, unfortunately. 

I would like to point out, however, that Sandi was dealing with retraining an adult dog who had developes some pretty severe reactive problems. She had tried many methods before resorting to the more heavy-handed methods that finally turned things around for Smarty. (last I heard, Smarty was still doing well)

E-collars and other aversives are NOT suitable for ANY puppy, and are not a good idea for MOST adult Havs. sandi felt like she had run out of other options with that particular dog before she went that route.


----------



## Sheri

Good points, Karen.


----------

