# Freshpet



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I was wondering whether any of the rest of you had tried this food. It comes in a number of different varieties, including several grain-free types and at least 3 different protein sources, is U.S. made from U.S. ingredients, and is processed at lower temperatures than either kibble or canned food, to preserve nutrients. Pam King introduced me to it when we were down visiting.

I've been looking for something I really felt good about feeding, ever since I had to take Kodi off the Honest Kitchen due to allergy problems. He has been eating Nature's Variety Limited Ingredient Duck since then, and he did do well on that.

Anyway, I STARTED just using the Freshpet rolled food, cubed, as training treats. He loved it! When I brought Pixel home, she was not eating much, and I started to mix in small amounts of FreshPet. Problem soled! Then I thought, with 2 small dogs, even though this is an expensive food, it still doesn't cost THAT much to feed them… Why not try it as their regular food?

So now they are both eating Freshpet Home Cooked Chicken Recipe. Short of raw, this is the most minimally processed food I've seen. It is shredded chicken (you can even still tell it's chicken! ) with cooked carrots and cranberries as the main ingredients. It looks good, smells good and they love it. It does need to be kept refrigerated, but I don't mind that.

Just thought I'd mention it as another possible option for those of you looking for excellent quality, but not raw, food.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yeah Karen I had this on file from Sabine a couple of years back but can't find it. I'll ask her again. Seems to me it was high in sugar or salt , not sure. I'll get back to you.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> yeah Karen I had this on file from Sabine a couple of years back but can't find it. I'll ask her again. Seems to me it was high in sugar or salt , not sure. I'll get back to you.


This is what I was able to find on salt:

"As Aimee has pointed out already, the NRC has set the safe upper limit at 3.75 grams sodium per 1,000 kcal. Given the values Fresh Pet has provided me with this puts the food at 2.27 g. sodium per 1,000 kcal. Well below the safe upper limit.

It's also important to keep in mind that dogs don't always suffer from the same health conditions that we as humans do.

According to Small Animal Clinical Nutrition:

"Essential hypertension is not considered a common problem in dogs; therefore higher intakes of dietary sodium and chloride have not been considered harmful in young, healthy dogs...High sodium and chloride intake is contraindicated in dogs with certain diseases that may have a hypertensive component such as obesity, renal disease and some endocrinopathies."

This food does have a much higher level of sodium than most kibbles (kibbles are generally closer to ~0.3%) but it also important to remember that nearly every moist food (aside from maybe raw foods) will contain more sodium than dry foods.

In short, I would have no issue recommending this product for a young to middle-aged, healthy dog. Based on what I know, it appears to be a great product (much better than kibble or canned) and I don't think it would cause any adverse effects."

The only reference I could find on the internet to sugar content must either be an older formulation or a different kind than I'm using. (there are a number of different ones&#8230; this is not the rolled food) There was one rolled food that I found mentioned that had dextrose fairly high on the ingredient list&#8230; NO idea why they would do that. There is no dextrose or other obvious sugar source in the type I'm feeding, except what minimal amount would come from the carrots in the recipe or POSSIBLY the cranberries, though I'm not sure they have much sugar in them. It does contain some oats, way down the list (below cranberries and carrots) and of course that would be a carb, but not a direct source of sugar.

There's no "perfect" commercial food from what I've seen, (I know you like raw, but that's not happening here) but this seems to be high quality, is easier to measure than canned and has not been exposed to the high heat of canned.

..And on the anecdotal, personal experience, front, this is the ONLY food I've ever fed that I haven't had to be exquisitely careful about slow change-over, and had some loose poops to deal with, even then. While I like this one (the Home Cooked Chicken) the best, there have been a couple of times I couldn't get it, and have had to quickly switch them over to a different one (the grain free turkey rolled food) and had absolutely no trouble.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

I will be watching for more info on this, too.

Tucker is doing really well on Primal Duck, raw, at this time, so I don't dare try anything else yet. But after I thought I was going to lose him 3 months ago, then all the medical workups including Dr. Dodd's saliva food sensitivities testing, I won't change. But, it would be wonderful to be able to feed a food that can be found locally, like the Freshpet.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

we all need to find what's good for our own dog. Not any one type is good for all dogs. Sabine finds what food you want for your dog whether it is kibble or raw , homecooked ,canned or whatever. It is a personal choice. Some dogs cant' handle raw, so it's not always the "preferred" for all dogs. Yes sodium is not a issue for all dogs. But it is for some. That's why I thought I would find out.


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

I have seen this at Target, Walmart and my local food store but never gave it much thought. I'm happy feeding Stella & Chewy's but always like new ideas for training treats. I like training treats even more if they can be part of a meal to keep calories down. One thing I'm a stickler about is meat, dairy products, eggs etc... that are hormone and antibiotic free for both my family and pets. I have been successful keeping to this about 95% of the time. Organic I tend to be a bit more lenient with especially if veggies and fruit can be peeled.

By the way I am really enjoying your adventures with Pixel, she's such a cutie! Hopefully I'll find you at Nationals see you and Kodi and meet her in person!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jabojenny said:


> I have seen this at Target, Walmart and my local food store but never gave it much thought. I'm happy feeding Stella & Chewy's but always like new ideas for training treats. I like training treats even more if they can be part of a meal to keep calories down. One thing I'm a stickler about is meat, dairy products, eggs etc... that are hormone and antibiotic free for both my family and pets. I have been successful keeping to this about 95% of the time. Organic I tend to be a bit more lenient with especially if veggies and fruit can be peeled.
> 
> By the way I am really enjoying your adventures with Pixel, she's such a cutie! Hopefully I'll find you at Nationals see you and Kodi and meet her in person!


Hope to see you there too, Jen!

I would LIKE to feed organic (or mostly organic) to the dogs too, which was why I liked using THK. But when Kodi had his allergy problems, we took him off it. Now, we DID find specific things that were causing his allergies and were not related to the HK, but he's doing well now, and they can't test for ALL the different ingredients in HK. Plus, cooking for TWO dogs gets to be a lot of work! (and freezer space if you cook batches that will last a while) I like that I can pick up Freshpet weekly, at one of several places, including the grocery store.

The only organic dog food I've ever found was Natural Balance Organic. And once they were sold to Delmonte, I was concerned about the ingredient sourcing. In fact, I'm not even sure they offer the organic one any more.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

davetgabby said:


> we all need to find what's good for our own dog. Not any one type is good for all dogs. Sabine finds what food you want for your dog whether it is kibble or raw , homecooked ,canned or whatever. It is a personal choice. Some dogs cant' handle raw, so it's not always the "preferred" for all dogs. Yes sodium is not a issue for all dogs. But it is for some. That's why I thought I would find out.


The TWO vets I have seen would agree 100% with the above. I was on Darwin's Raw Diet and had some serious side effects. Both vets wanted me off Darwin's immediately. These two vets feel that there are more cons than pros with a raw food diet - to both doggies and humans. They both said that a small minority of doggies appear to do well on a raw food diet, but in their accumulated experience, the majority don't do well. They have no problem with a freeze dried diet like Honest Kitchen, which is what I am now on and doing much better.

However, both said that their recommended diet is KIBBLE. They said that a good quality, nutritionally balanced kibble has 95% of the nutritional value as raw, which is close enough. They said that kibble is fool-proof and not as much can go wrong when compared to raw.

Oye, I'm not a pet nutrition expert. I am only reporting what I overhear when mi vet talks to Popi. Please don't kill the messenger! :fish:

besos, Ricky Ricardo


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

"However, both said that their recommended diet is KIBBLE. They said that a good quality, nutritionally balanced kibble has 95% of the nutritional value as raw, which is close enough. They said that kibble is fool-proof and not as much can go wrong when compared to raw"

Certainly something most nutritionists would disagree with.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

davetgabby said:


> Certainly something most nutritionists would disagree with.


Entiendo (I understand) but most pet nutritionists are not DVM's. All peoples are going to believe whatever they want to believe. :wink:

besos, Ricky Ricardo


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yes people will believe what they want to believe but the truth is that 99 percent of vets are not nutritionists'. All we can do is provide the info that many of the experts are saying.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Entiendo (I understand) but most pet nutritionists are not DVM's. All peoples are going to believe whatever they want to believe. :wink:
> 
> besos, Ricky Ricardo


Actually, Ricky, There ARE Board Certified Veterinary Nutritionists, but they usually work for major universities. You can get referrals to them if needed, but they are rarely in private practice.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> There ARE Board Certified Veterinary Nutritionists,


Lo entiendo, yes I understand Tia Karen. But does that mean that a Board Certified Nutritionist MUST be involved in the formulation of a food in order for it to be considered "good?" Isn't it possible that a Board Certified Nutritionist formulates the ingredients in a good kibble? Who is the Board Certified Nutritionist who formulated FreshPet? I have had two DVM vets tell mi that a good kibble is more than sufficient for a healthy doggie. Am I supposed to discount what a vet tels mi and go by what I read on the Internet that is anecdotal and unsubstantiated?

I'm not trying to argue with peoples because us doggies are dependent on yous for our health and happiness. I just want mi Popi to feed me food that is good for mi. I want Popi to avoid following the latest food fad.

besos, Ricky


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Lo entiendo, yes I understand Tia Karen. But does that mean that a Board Certified Nutritionist MUST be involved in the formulation of a food in order for it to be considered "good?" Isn't it possible that a Board Certified Nutritionist formulates the ingredients in a good kibble? Who is the Board Certified Nutritionist who formulated FreshPet? I have had two DVM vets tell mi that a good kibble is more than sufficient for a healthy doggie. Am I supposed to discount what a vet tels mi and go by what I read on the Internet that is anecdotal and unsubstantiated?
> 
> I'm not trying to argue with peoples because us doggies are dependent on yous for our health and happiness. I just want mi Popi to feed me food that is good for mi. I want Popi to avoid following the latest food fad.
> 
> besos, Ricky


here is something from Mercola Pets

"Veterinary Nutritionists Have Financial Ties to Major Pet Food Manufacturers

Veterinary nutritionists receive a diploma from the American College of Veterinary Nutrition (ACVN). They are DVMs who go on to become board certified in veterinary nutrition. The additional training they receive runs at least two years and they must pass a written exam at the end of their coursework in order to obtain board certification.

ACVN is the smallest of the veterinary colleges and there are fewer than 100 veterinary nutritionists in the world. They work in veterinary schools, government agencies, pet drug companies, private animal hospitals, for themselves, and very frequently, for pet food companies. Major pet food manufacturers also frequently pay the tuition for DVMs studying to become veterinary nutritionists.

So when you hear or read that a veterinary nutritionist recommends X or Y or Z pet food - or discourages the feeding of raw or homemade diets, for example -- keep in mind that many practicing veterinary nutritionists are obligated in some way to a pet food manufacturer. This association creates a rather obvious conflict of interest when it comes to the advice they offer, not to mention the training they have received.

Fortunately, the AHVM Foundation wants to assist in the development of integrative veterinary nutrition departments which can further study and delineate the applicability of species-appropriate diets. That will provide the veterinary community with unbiased pet nutrition experts with no ties to the pet food industry" end of quote

This is commonly witnessed when you study the pet food industry. Vet nutritionists have ties to the large food companies and therefore are not unbiased quite often when they endorse certain foods. Regular vets are not trained in nutrition hardly. They quite often recommend foods that they sell. Long story short , find a non vet nutritionist to learn about nutrition. here is some sources that I find invaluable ...

monica segal http://www.monicasegal.com/optimal-nutrition.html

Dr. Pitcairn http://www.drpitcairn.com/dr-pitcairns-complete-guide/

Catherine Lane http://www.thepossiblecanine.com/cat-lane

Sabine Contreras http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=main

Diana Laverdure http://petfooddiva.com/

Dr. Jean Dodds http://drjeandoddspethealthresource.tumblr.com/dodds-nutrition#.VYBeb43bLIU

Dogs Naturally http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Lo entiendo, yes I understand Tia Karen. But does that mean that a Board Certified Nutritionist MUST be involved in the formulation of a food in order for it to be considered "good?" Isn't it possible that a Board Certified Nutritionist formulates the ingredients in a good kibble? Who is the Board Certified Nutritionist who formulated FreshPet? I have had two DVM vets tell mi that a good kibble is more than sufficient for a healthy doggie. Am I supposed to discount what a vet tels mi and go by what I read on the Internet that is anecdotal and unsubstantiated?
> 
> I'm not trying to argue with peoples because us doggies are dependent on yous for our health and happiness. I just want mi Popi to feed me food that is good for mi. I want Popi to avoid following the latest food fad.
> 
> besos, Ricky


Yes, for sure, every major animal food company uses veterinary nutritionists to help them formulate their diets. And, yes, there are SOME kibbles that are adequate nutrition. Most importantly, kibble is convenient for pet owners.

While I suspect most veterinary nutritionists (and lay nutritionists, for that matter) would tell you that there certainly are kibbles that are a reasonable diet, at least for certain dogs, i doubt That any that don't have a financial stake in a specific product would say that kibble is the best food out there for dogs. The biggest basic problem is simply that it is DRY food. Many, if not most, animals (cat or dog) on complete kibble diets do not drink enough water to make up for what is lacking in their food, and live in a chronic state of mild dehydration.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

just to add to what Karen said about kibble, there's much more than just the lack of water that's a problem .... http://go.epublish4me.com/ebook/ebook?id=10018049#/36


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

This article is very unfortunate in that it paints all DVM Board Certified Nutritionists with a very broad brush, insinuating that they are all unethical. I am not accusing anyone of anything, I love all peoples, but the same could be said of the non-certified nutritionists listed in the article. They may have a financial stake through consulting fees for recommending an alternative diet. The article referenced is not helpful or productive.

All I know is that the two vets I have seen recently did not have their schooling paid for by a dog food company. They are only recommending what can be substantiated by their considerable experience dealing with pets, "hands on."

su amigo, Ricky Ricardo


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

well we are just putting the info out to you . Like you said, don't shoot the messenger , you can believe who you want.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> just to add to what Karen said about kibble, there's much more than just the lack of water that's a problem .... http://go.epublish4me.com/ebook/ebook?id=10018049#/36


Although I agree that Kibble is not what I want my dogs eating all the time, I have to say that "Dogs Naturally" is SO slanted in the other direction that it is hard to take them seriously either.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

krandall said:


> Although I agree that Kibble is not what I want my dogs eating all the time, I have to say that "Dogs Naturally" is SO slanted in the other direction that it is hard to take them seriously either.


they have some writers that can be extreme, but most of their info is correct with what others are saying. agreed.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> i doubt That any that don't have a financial stake in a specific product would say that kibble is the best food out there for dogs.


The two vets that I have seen recently, who recommend kibble, don't have a financial stake in a dog food company. If what you said were true, I don't know why anyone would take their doggie to a vet if they were that unethical.



> The biggest basic problem is simply that it is DRY food. Many, if not most, animals (cat or dog) on complete kibble diets do not drink enough water to make up for what is lacking in their food, and live in a chronic state of mild dehydration.


Could I por favor have a link for that statement? How about mixing some water with that dry kibble? How much water does a doggie need each day?

besos, Ricky


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I'll field your second question ,yes you should add water to kibble that helps somewhat. Hardly anyone does though . Did you read the article on kibble that I posted. ? Here is another by jean Dodds who has no vested interest in dog food companies.

__
https://28418118490%2Fpets-react-commercial-pet-foods%23.VYD2Do3bJMs


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

davetgabby said:


> just to add to what Karen said about kibble, there's much more than just the lack of water that's a problem .... http://go.epublish4me.com/ebook/ebook?id=10018049#/36


Just for full disclosure, this is what the biography says about the person who wrote this article: "in 2009 she became an active partner in Answers Pet Food, managing product formulation, research and development as well as procurement." I guess you could say she is bought and paid for by the pet food industry, especially when she profits by being the owner of her own pet food company. Does that mean that what she writes cannot be trusted? She is not a DVM or a Board Certified Pet Nutritionist. What is her experience in caring for us doggies in a medical environment on a day to day basis?

I wanna be a dog nutrition expert, I stayed for the night in a dog friendly Holiday Inn with Momi and Popi! :hungry: I wanna be chief food taster!

su amigo, Ricky Ricardo


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

many people who have started their own pet food companies do so because of the crap that is out there.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

davetgabby said:


> I'll field your second question ,yes you should add water to kibble that helps somewhat. Hardly anyone does though .


Don't blame the kibble then, blame the peoples that don't hydrate their kibble.



> Here is another by jean Dodds who has no vested interest in dog food companies.
> 
> __
> https://28418118490%2Fpets-react-commercial-pet-foods%23.VYD2Do3bJMs


No one can question Dr. Dodds credentials. No one should question mi vets credentials or ethics either. The problem with Dr. Dodds is that she is pushing her $280 allergy test which she says is a result of eating kibble. She has a vested interest in her testing.

su amigo, Ricky Ricardo


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I'll let Karen field your first question to her, I'm not touching that one with a ten foot pole ; lol I think she gone to bed though , it's almost one in the morning here , so Hav a good night.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> The two vets that I have seen recently, who recommend kibble, don't have a financial stake in a dog food company. If what you said were true, I don't know why anyone would take their doggie to a vet if they were that unethical.


 I was talking about Board Certified Veterinary Nutritionists, not regular vets. (I don't think the vets you saw were nutritionists, were they?) Dave is right that vet schools spend very little time on nutrition. MEDICAL schools spend very little time on nutrition, and our doctors only need to learn about ONE species&#8230; Vets have to learn about MANY species in the same length of time. It's not surprising that they can't cover everything in depth.



Ricky Ricardo said:


> Could I por favor have a link for that statement? How about mixing some water with that dry kibble? How much water does a doggie need each day?
> 
> besos, Ricky


Sorry, I don't have a link. One of the (several) places this information comes from is Dr. Jean Dodds, who was a speaker at the Havanese National Specialty 2 years ago. She might have something about it on her web site. Mixing water with the kibble is CERTAINLY a good idea, and would likely solve this problem, but almost no pet owners do this.

The amount of water needed will vary greatly, even in the same dog (let alone different dogs) based on their activity level, food intake, water content of that food, temperature and humidity level...


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> (I don't think the vets you saw were nutritionists, were they?)


Only in a general sense, based on their interaction and treatment of pets, specifically doggies, on a regular basis, sometimes 7 days a week. No need to disrespect mi vets for recommending what they feel is best for mi health based on their experience.


> It's not surprising that they can't cover everything in depth.


So they can't say that from their personal experience they see more problems resulting from a raw diet than they see benefits?



> Mixing water with the kibble is CERTAINLY a good idea, and would likely solve this problem, but almost no pet owners do this.


So if mi vet says that using extra precautions when serving a raw diet is necessary, but almost no pet owners who use a raw diet do.........this means a raw diet is necessarily bad?



> The amount of water needed will vary greatly, even in the same dog (let alone different dogs) based on their activity level, food intake, water content of that food, temperature and humidity level...


So if Dr. Dodds says the following:


krandall said:


> Many, if not most, animals (cat or dog) on complete kibble diets do not drink enough water to make up for what is lacking in their food, and live in a chronic state of mild dehydration.


.........then Dr. Dodds is wrong because (and I agree with you) "the amount of water needed will vary greatly, even in the same dog (let alone different dogs) based on their activity level, food intake, water content of that food, temperature and humidity level.." And to say that kibble is, by definition, "bad" because it is DRY is not, by definition, true. A more accurate statement might be.......a pet owner needs to take precautions when feeding kibble, or a raw diet, based on the requirements of your specific dog.

I'm just trying to cut through the rhetoric and get down to information we inexperienced doggies can understand.

besos, Ricky


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

" The problem with Dr. Dodds is that she is pushing her $280 allergy test which she says is a result of eating kibble. She has a vested interest in her testing." 

That statement is ridiculous ... if she was promoting her test, she wouldn't be making statements against the quality of kibble. Maybe you should pick fault with her credentials?


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

davetgabby said:


> many people who have started their own pet food companies do so because of the crap that is out there.


Then why do you question the motives or ethics of someone who have started their own kibble pet food companies because of all the crap that is out there?

Let's cut through the biases and get down to the essentials.

su amigo, Ricky Ricardo


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Then why do you question the motives or ethics of someone who have started their own kibble pet food companies because of all the crap that is out there?
> 
> Let's cut through the biases and get down to the essentials.
> 
> su amigo, Ricky Ricardo


I am not questioning anyone's motives for starting their own cos. Thank God we have these small companies that provide better foods.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Dr. Jean Dodds received the D.V.M. degree with honors in 1964 from the Ontario Veterinary College, University of Toronto. In 1965, she accepted a position as a Research Scientist with the New York State Health Department. She began comparative studies of animals with inherited and acquired bleeding diseases. Eventually, her position culminated as Chief, Laboratory of Hematology, Wadsworth Center. In 1980, she also became Executive Director, New York State Council on Human Blood and Transfusion Services.

This work continued full-time until 1986 when she moved to Southern California to establish Hemopet, the first nonprofit national blood bank program for animals.

The diagnostic division of Hemopet, Hemolife, provides the most advanced comprehensive diagnostic profiles for identifying canine thyroid disease, performs titer testing, as well as a wide range of other diagnostic services. Hypothyroidism is the most common endocrine disorder of dogs. More than 80% of cases result from autoimmune thyroiditis, the heritable autoimmune disease that progressively destroys the thyroid gland. Classical clinical signs of hypothyroidism only appear once more than 70% of the gland is destroyed. Accurate diagnosis may be difficult because thyroid dysfunction produces a wide range of clinical signs, many of which are subtle and mimic those of other causes.

Dr. Dodds also assisted Antech Diagnostics to establish its IFA testing method (published in JAVMA 2000) and with its thyroid testing antibody profiles.

Dr. Dodds is very well-known for her minimum vaccine protocols and as Co-Trustee of The Rabies Challenge Fund. She provides an FAQ on the subject and has authored several articles such as "Changing Vaccine Protocols". 

Dr. Dodds co-authored The Canine Thyroid Epidemic: Answers You Need for Your Dog, which was rewarded the Dog Writers Association of America, Best Care and Health Book for 2011 and the Eukanuba Maxwell Canine Health Award. Her second book, Nutrigenomics: Foods that heal your dog, was published in January 2015.

In 2011, Dr. Dodds released NutriScan, a food sensitivity and intolerance diagnostic test for dogs. NutriScan tests for twenty of the most commonly ingested foods.

Notable
• Grantee of the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute (NIH) and has over 150 research publications. 
• Former President of the Scientist's Center for Animal Welfare
• Former Chairman of the Committee on Veterinary Medical Sciences, National Academy of Sciences
• Former Vice-Chairman of the Institute of Laboratory Animal Resources, National Academy of Sciences
• Former member of the National Research Council/BANR Committee on National Needs for Research in Veterinary Science, which released its report in July 2005
• Currently on Board of Directors of the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association
• Currently on Board of Directors of the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Foundation

Awards
• 1974: Outstanding Woman Veterinarian of the Year, AVMA Annual Meeting
• 1977: Region I Award for Outstanding Service to the Veterinary Profession from the American Animal Hospital Association
• 1978 and 1990: received the Gaines Fido Award as Dogdom's Woman of the Year
• 1978: Recognition of Special Contributions to the Veterinary Profession from the American Animal Hospital Association
• 1984: Centennial Medal from the University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine
• 1987: Distinguished Practitioner of the National Academy of Practice in Veterinary Medicine
• 1994: Holistic Veterinarian of the Year Award from the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

davetgabby said:


> they have some writers that can be extreme, but most of their info is correct with what others are saying. agreed.


What others, most professional DVM's, are saying is that kibble is just fine for MOST doggies. :frusty:

su amigo, Ricky Ricardo


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

if you want "just fine" go for it.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

davetgabby said:


> I am not questioning anyone's motives for starting their own cos. Thank God we have these small companies that provide better foods.


50% of mi diet is kibble made by a small company, who are rapidly expanding, that is making a nutritionally superior kibble. There are several companies out there who are doing this. To universally disrespect kibble is painting with two broad a brush.

su amigo, Ricky Ricardo


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

once again, kibble is fine for some people. it's their only option. In general it is not the healthiest choice. That is all we are saying.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

davetgabby said:


> once again, kibble is fine for some people.


Mi vet would agree with you but he would say, "kibble is fine for most people.



> In general it is not the healthiest choice.


Mi vet would disagree with you. He would say based on his professional experience, kibble is a healthier choice than a raw diet when considering all the comparatively bad things that can go wrong with a raw diet.

su amigo, Ricky Ricardo


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Mi vet would agree with you but he would say, "kibble is fine for most people.
> 
> Mi vet would disagree with you. He would say based on his professional experience, kibble is a healthier choice than a raw diet when considering all the comparatively bad things that can go wrong with a raw diet.
> 
> su amigo, Ricky Ricardo


fine, if your vet is against raw, why then wouldn't he recommend freeze dried home cooked or canned. All of these are better in general . I suppose he also has a problem with canned? You make no sense


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Only in a general sense, based on their interaction and treatment of pets, specifically doggies, on a regular basis, sometimes 7 days a week. No need to disrespect mi vets for recommending what they feel is best for mi health based on their experience.


I was not disrespecting your vet (or ANY vet!) AT ALL! I was just pointing out the difference between Board Certified veterinary Nutritionists and normal, good vets who do not have this specialized training. I happen to disagree with Dave in terms of "unethical" vets. Do vets have opinions? Of course they do. So do we all!  I happen to have a number of friends who are vets. I don't know ONE of them who is in it for the money. Maybe SOME veterinary nutritionists get SOME part of the schooling paid by a dog food manufacturer, but certainly not all, and it certainly doesn't pay for the vast majority of their schooling. Most vets are in debt for their schooling for many, MANY years.

I'm going to bow out of this "discussion" now. I started it with a question of other people's ANECDOTAL experience with ONE, SPECIFIC brand of (non-raw, non-kibble) food. I have no idea why it turned into a kibble vs. raw war, but I don't feed either one, nor do I have an interest in feeding either one at this time.eace:


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I agree Karen, sorry for getting off topic.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

I am glad to read that your findings on FreshPet are good, Karen. I read on my Facebook page that several Havanese people are using it as training treats and loving it. 

One breeder/show-er said she feeds it to her dogs. One time her dog got sick and she found that she had fed him one that was a month past the expiration date, so now she just checks it every day before feeding, but still feeds it for their meals. There were no negative reports other than that that were posted.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

careful of this Karen http://truthaboutpetfood.com/freshpet-pet-food-having-mold-problems/


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

davetgabby said:


> fine, if your vet is against raw, why then wouldn't he recommend freeze dried home cooked or canned. All of these are better in general .


Oh he did! He said that a freeze dried diet was much safer and perfectly satisfactory to him than a raw, meaning raw frozen, diet like Darwins or several others. In fact 50% of mi diet is a freeze dried diet product.

su amigo, Ricky Ricardo


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

:focus:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Sheri said:


> I am glad to read that your findings on FreshPet are good, Karen. I read on my Facebook page that several Havanese people are using it as training treats and loving it.
> 
> One breeder/show-er said she feeds it to her dogs. One time her dog got sick and she found that she had fed him one that was a month past the expiration date, so now she just checks it every day before feeding, but still feeds it for their meals. There were no negative reports other than that that were posted.


Thanks, Sheri. I started out using it as treat food too, then as I read more about it, decided to make it their every day food. I'm very careful about the dates&#8230; as I would be meat that I was planning to serve the "human" family! I have been told that it's fine to freeze it too, which makes sense, since it's just a cooked food. So far, especially buying the bagged food, I am having no problem finishing a bag in less than a week, which is what they suggest on the label. The rolled food has a longer self-life, but it is also clearly more heavily processed than the "home cooked" in bags. Since my whole reason for being interested in it was to get the least processed cooked food I could, the bagged seems like a better option. I also find it easier to measure. (which makes the other family members happy when they have to feed )


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> careful of this Karen http://truthaboutpetfood.com/freshpet-pet-food-having-mold-problems/


Thanks, Dave. I'll keep an eye out, but so far, no signs of mold!


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

What is "rolled" and "bagged" in FreshPet? I have seen the thick, sausage shaped, plastic wrapped ones... are those considered to be Rolled?

Oh, after reading Dave's mold link I see the difference. It looks like it is good to watch expiration dates and also how long the food has been opened. Just like our own foods.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

I have heard of a new food Frenchies. Has anyone tried it?


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I am looking into this food now! Thanks Karen


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## Napria (May 17, 2015)

I am so sorry, and I don't mean to reopen the can of worms, but I only logged on this evening after being offline for a day.

My profession is child nutrition (not canine nutrition) and I am skeptical by nature. I quadruple check everything; sometimes I look at many more than 4 sources. And when I look at sources, I look for hidden agendas. I also look at sources from every side of an argument.

One thing I heard recently is that if a person is firmly entrenched in a belief, they will not be swayed from their position -- no matter how well formulated the argument from the opposite side. The most effective way to sway someone is if someone from their point of view has a change of mind and presents the facts as they see it to those who know he or she was originally of like mind. So I am not trying to change anyone's mind.

Having said all that, I can say that from my background (the risks to *humans* from bacillus cereus, listeria monocytogenes, shiga toxin-producing Escherichia coli, clostridium botulinum, campylobacter jejuni and Nontyphoidal salmonella is great when foods are not cooked to proper temperatures-- risks which can be easily passed from dogs to humans) and after reading Chapter 5, pages 77 - 80 of "The Havanese" by Diane Klumb and Joanne Baldwin DVM, copyright 2005, paperback edition... I will not be feeding my puppy raw food. 

To each his or her own.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

I am also in healthcare and I could never feed my dogs raw. Way too much of a risk for me to consider!


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

I think i bought Freshpet once maybe at whole foods awhile ago, but I always wondered how it got on the shelves of so many major retailers which is not an easy thing to do. Also have a big ad budget. It turns out Tyson Foods is one of the backers so now it makes sense that they would have access to that kind of supply chain and marketing.


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## DaisyMommy (Feb 28, 2015)

Has anyone tried their selection of treats? Would you say it's worth it? I was going to get Daisy the turkey bacon ones but looking at the ingredients, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference than the turkey bacon I buy from Trader Joe's that my husband and I love. Daisy is so picky about her treats!


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Napria said:


> One thing I heard recently is that if a person is firmly entrenched in a belief, they will not be swayed from their position -- no matter how well formulated the argument from the opposite side. So I am not trying to change anyone's mind.


I'm not trying to change any minds either, I'm just reporting what mi vet has recommended to mi, as an alternate point of view. I don't understand why those people who don't agree with mi DVM want to disrespect and question his motives, ethics, or experience just because mi vet doesn't agree with their preconceived ideas.



> Having said all that, I can say that from my background (the risks to *humans* from bacillus cereus, listeria monocytogenes, shiga toxin-producing Escherichia coli, clostridium botulinum, campylobacter jejuni and Nontyphoidal salmonella is great when foods are not cooked to proper temperatures-- risks which can be easily passed from dogs to humans)


ARF, that is essentially what mi vet thinks, the risks are two great for doggies and peoples in his experience. Theoretically, raw food is somewhat more "nutritious" than other types of food, but many of those other foods will more than meet all your doggies requirements without the health risks according to mi vet



> I will not be feeding my puppy raw food.
> 
> To each his or her own.


Peoples can feed their dog whatever they want. I know that everyones love their doggie and wouldn't do anything intentionally to hurt their doggie. But us little doggies and their ignorant Popi's are here to learn. It is not helpful when those peoples who are more experienced are contradictory, confrontational, confusing, and illogical. I'm hear to learn, not to fight. I love all peoples. :grouphug:

:focus: I don't understand why FreshPet that is associated with conglomerate Tyson Foods and currently has several cases of mold across the US is considered a "desireable" food, yet Taste of the Wild and is associated with conglomerate Diamond Foods and TOTW brand has never had a recall (yes, I know Diamond Foods had a recall for Salmonella in 2012 before they acquired TOTW) is considered a "undesireable" food. This is not logical. I guess it is two much to ask for logic when all you peoples spend so much on us Havanese, right down to our toys. So, I guess it is time for mi to understand that peoples are going to believe whatever they want to believe with no justification. 

besos, Ricky Ricardo


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

DaisyMommy said:


> Has anyone tried their selection of treats? Would you say it's worth it? I was going to get Daisy the turkey bacon ones but looking at the ingredients, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference than the turkey bacon I buy from Trader Joe's that my husband and I love. Daisy is so picky about her treats!


I do use some of their treat foods, and more often, their grain free food rolls, cubed small, as training treats. But they have a LOT of different recipes, so I have to read the ingredients on each bag or roll before I buy it to avoid Kodi's allergens (beef, dairy and fish).
But they go crazy over them, so they DO make good training treats in the rotation.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> :focus: I don't understand why FreshPet that is associated with conglomerate Tyson Foods and currently has several cases of mold across the US is considered a "desireable" food, yet Taste of the Wild and is associated with conglomerate Diamond Foods and TOTW brand has never had a recall (yes, I know Diamond Foods had a recall for Salmonella in 2012 before they acquired TOTW) is considered a "undesireable" food. This is not logical. I guess it is two much to ask for logic when all you peoples spend so much on us Havanese, right down to our toys. So, I guess it is time for mi to understand that peoples are going to believe whatever they want to believe with no justification.


I don't know who said one of those was desirable and the other wasn't. (and sorry, at the moment, I'm tired of pretending I'm talking to a dog) If you're talking about the article I posted (for readers' interest only&#8230; I wasn't out to "prove" anything, one way or another, with it) that article didn't like TOTW (which I had no idea you fed), but it certainly didn't give a gold star to Freshpet either. The article didn't mention Freshpet at all that I saw!

I will tell you why _I_ don't want to feed _MY_ dogs food from the Diamond plant. Other people have other priorities and will make other choices. Diamond has had MULTIPLE shut-downs and recalls over the years, on many "brands". Some of those shut downs have not been voluntary, but have been forced upon them. The equipment used for all the different brands that go through that factory are shared. So if one food is exposed to dangerous bacteria, there is no saying another food isn't. Besides, I don't want to feed kibble. Your choices and your reasoning may be different.

That's my choice and I don't care what other people choose quite frankly. It's their decision. I have friends who are "raw warriors", and they are as passionate as reformed smokers. I have other friends with multiple large breed dogs, who just can't afford anything but kibble. They do their best to buy a good quality kibble that works for their dogs. Likewise, VERY FEW breeders don't start their puppies off on SOME sort of kibble, because most are sold to pet homes, and that's what most pet owners like to use. *I DON'T CARE!* I only posted asking if other people had had PERSONAL experience with Freshpet. It seems to have started a war, but I've had precious little PERSONAL EXPERIENCE feedback on the original question.

As far as the Tyson connection is concerned, I will happily admit, I don't like that. No question about it. I don't feed Tyson chicken to my family. But I need to balance the good and bad qualities found in ANY food, as far as I can see. I don't think we can know, for certain, where the meat in most dog foods is sourced except asking the company to be honest about the food being sourced from within the U.S. From what I've read, almost all kibbles are made from some sort of "meat meal"&#8230; who knows WHAT goes into that? There is no meat meal used in Freshpet products.

My first choice, and the only one that seems to have had NO bad strikes against it (except Dave, way back, saying it wasn't nutritionally balanced according to Sabine, who seems to be the only source HE trusts) is Honest Kitchen. I felt good about using HK, and would go back to it happily, EXCEPT that my dog had allergy problems while he was on it (though they did not start while he was on it) that he doesn't have now!!! As far as I can see, other than complete home cooking, (which I am not prepared to do right now, partially because I have not decided who I can trust to provide a fully balanced recipe and partially because I just don't have the time and energy) using HK with your OWN privately sourced, organic meat is the closest you can get to completely controlling the quality of the food you feed your dog. I may try it again at some point, having removed other allergens from Kodi's diet and see how he does. But the vet and I are in agreement that keeping him off it for a good long time is the safest approach right now. There are too many ingredients in HK that won't show up on the Hemopet food sensitivity panel. &#8230;And I'm certainly going to TRY to avoid using two types of food for two different dogs. WAY too complicated, even for me, let alone any time anyone else has to feed them!

Ricky's Dad, I think you've attacked this vet issue like a dog protecting his bone. Dave has strong biases, and I think anyone who has been around here for any length of time knows what they are. (they also know how often Dave comes forward with great information for others on training issues) If the two of you are going to keep growling and snapping at each other, take it to PM. As for me, I've certainly learned ONE lesson from this. You can't POSSIBLY ask a question about experiences with a *SPECIFIC* (non-raw, non-kibble) food on this forum without the conversation IMMEDIATELY devolving into yet another "raw vs. kibble" war.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

hi Karen, I'll admit I have some strong biases, but I base that on what I believe to be a consensus of opinion from more than one trusted sources. I only try to provide info. that I think people can benefit. If I am wrong fine, let me know and we will discuss it. Sorry you feel so bitter towards this effort. You know I only want to help. We've talked privately many times and I wish you would have been more open if you have issues. Sorry if I have offended you.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> hi Karen, I'll admit I have some strong biases, but I base that on what I believe to be a consensus of opinion from more than one trusted sources. I only try to provide info. that I think people can benefit. If I am wrong fine, let me know and we will discuss it. Sorry you feel so bitter towards this effort. You know I only want to help. We've talked privately many times and I wish you would have been more open if you have issues. Sorry if I have offended you.


You haven't offended me, Dave. I know your biases. We all have them. If I don't agree with you (or have reservations) I agree to disagree.  I also know how much you contribute positively to this forum. I am just a little sick and tired of how far off track this whole thread has gone. If I had the power, I'd take the whole thing down.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

krandall said:


> You haven't offended me, Dave. I know your biases. We all have them. If I don't agree with you (or have reservations) I agree to disagree.  I also know how much you contribute positively to this forum. I am just a little sick and tired of how far off track this whole thread has gone. If I had the power, I'd take the whole thing down.


hugs Karen. Yes and I apologize, I just felt compelled to reply to the questions posed , as I don't like to not answer someone's questions . Waiting for SPARCS I forgot the time difference, and was pissed of that I couldn't get the live stream up. lol


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> hugs Karen. Yes and I apologize, I just felt compelled to reply to the questions posed , as I don't like to not answer someone's questions . Waiting for SPARCS I forgot the time difference, and was pissed of that I couldn't get the live stream up. lol


I'm twiddling my thumbs too! In the mean time, I made Kodi's and Pixel's entries for the national specialty.


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## NickieTwo (Jun 17, 2013)

I glad Karen asked about FreshPet. We'd seen that in stores and wondered about it. I'm also glad that Ricky (or his popi) has posted his opinions on kibble and raw diets. It was past time for that post. Thank you Ricky.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

NickieTwo said:


> I glad Karen asked about FreshPet. We'd seen that in stores and wondered about it. I'm also glad that Ricky (or his popi) has posted his opinions on kibble and raw diets. It was past time for that post. Thank you Ricky.


Just not in a thread that has nothing to do with either raw or kibble.


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

I was the one who posted about the Tysons-Fresh Pet connection - who knows if that is a good or bad thing. A plus could be better manufacturing facilities and a better supply chain but a minus could be antibiotics and scraps etc. 

Everyone knows that the pet industry is big business and it makes sense to get in and get market share. I dont have an issue with that as long as its a quality product. But if it turns out they are putting a premium price on a low end product and marketing it as a gourmet or superior dog food that's a different story. 

Blue Buffalo is similar. It seemed like suddenly it was everywhere - in all of the major retailers and all over the media with expensive ads, something you would not see with a typical start up.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> Just not in a thread that has nothing to do with either raw or kibble.


HUH?  I din't bring it up, someone else did in post #5.

Gracias for your more detailed reasons for selecting FreshPet. We are always looking for healthier and more nutritious options for mi diet. We are not committed to any one type of food now or ever. I appreciate when peoples share their favorite food, but it is helpful to understand why they have chosen a particular food.

So can't we all just get along? I really do love all peoples. :grouphug:

besos, Ricky Ricardo


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Ricky you are a hoot


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## MWilson (May 22, 2015)

I realize I don’t have a dog in this fight (no pun intended, although I am cracking myself up), but I’m going to put in my two cents as if it were worth a dollar and a half (yep, still cracking myself up). Anyway, what I want to say is that when my sons were little I potty trained them much like I do the dogs. Yes, you read that right, and no, I never stuck anyone's nose in it!

We lived in the country surrounded by several acres of land, and being from the south it is just second nature for a boy to feel the need to pee outside in the wild vs. making use of a boring indoor plumbing system. Also, it totally works like a charm and my boys were out of those diapers quick as a flash! It's as natural as a honey comb to a honey bee! Well, it all went really well until my youngest (16-year old Sweet Ankles—the pups like to chew his ankles) decided he needed to pee in the middle of the Wal-Mart parking lot. He was much younger at the time, and it was a bit embarrassing. People stared as if they had never seen a boy pee in the parking lot before! I must have given him a gallon of apple juice previously because I thought he would never stop! Looking back I realize this was quite an accomplishment for him since my oldest son once told him that if he peed on gravel it would explode (true story, I swear). Fortunately for me, Sweet Ankles turned into a straight A student and is working toward becoming fluent in German, having taken two full years of the class in only 9 ¼ months. So, I am thinking that the incident in the Wal-Mart parking lot doesn’t necessarily make me a bad mother. I’m not saying that I am up for Mother of the Year, but DSS has never had to pay me a visit, my boys are mama’s boys, and they are generally well behaved, so I feel pretty confident in my abilities. I know y’all are now wondering just how medicated I am at the moment, but I promise I have a point so just keep reading. 

The moral of this story is that it doesn’t matter who has the best dog food, the best vets, the best doggie aerobic instructor, or who among us has the greatest potty training skills (uh, that would be me as proven in the Wal-Mart parking lot among a great many of our peers)! The fact is that we are all good and responsible dog owners. We are all members of a Havanese forum that we post in regularly! HELLO??? As soon as Sweet Ankles found out I was a member of this forum, he was quick to tell his brother, “Mom’s joined an online dog cult.” Yep, that is how the world views us. Just being in this forum shows how much we totally love and adore our dogs regardless of what we think is best for them. We don’t all have to do the same things. We don't all have to potty train our kids outside. It's ok to use indoor plumbing, but if you need to go in a parking lot I will totally support that! We don’t have to believe the same things. We don’t have to eat the same things and we don’t have to feed our dogs the same things. It doesn't matter if we use FreshPet, Stinky Pet, Kibble, Wet, Dry, Home Cooked, or Road-Kill Extreme. If it works for us, then that is all that matters. It doesn't mean that one is a better dog owner than another (except for me due to my superior parking lot potty training parental skills). It doesn't mean one of us loves our animals more than another. We all want healthy pets. None of us are going to bed tonight pondering devious thoughts on how best to harm our pooches. Just keep in mind that if we were all the same Baskin Robbins would only serve one flavor, the greatest dog food company in the world wouldn't be able to keep up with the demand, and the Havanese would be the only dog breed on earth. We should keep in mind that we are a very minute group here and really should stick together. Otherwise, our cult may be on the brink of destruction, and where would we post cute pics of our awesome little pups?


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