# How do you guys feel about....



## miller123 (Aug 13, 2011)

Ceaser milan. he seems kinda harsh, i watched this one where a dog was food agressive. He put a bowl of food on the ground, then bullied the dog into submission by poking it. now i think that if you are youing to fix a food aggresive dog, you should be the provider of the food by pouring little by little of the kibble into the bowl so that the dog knows that the person is in control of the food. any thoughts on him useing his methods on small and big dogs. also the only thing i have ever done remotly close to that is rolled miller onto his back for snapping and my hand when trying to clip his nails, and i mean biting, hard. so now i let the vet do the nails LOL


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

A lot of CM's methods are based on misunderstanding outdated theories of dog/wolf behavior that have now been scientifically disproven. That said, I've seen the man change and grow over the years. He uses a LOT more positive/reward based techniques (often couched in CM "jargon") in recent shows than in older ones.

When you watch his show, you need to remember that 1. it's entertainment, first and foremost, 2. that you can't make meaningful, long-term changes in a dog's behavior in a half hour, 3. (in fairness to him) he takes on a lot of dogs that most trainers wouldn't touch or have given up on. 

If the average person has a real problem with food aggression (resource guarding) with their dog, they should contact a good, positive based trainer, not try to deal with it on their own. They could get hurt. If you are starting with a puppy, it's better to AVOID food aggression, by teaching the puppy to eat out of the owner's hand or with the owner's hand in the food dish on a regular basis. Another method you can (and should) do regularly is to take the dish of "plain old dog food" away momentarily, and return it immediately with something REALLY yummy added to it. This way, the dog will start to think of people taking the dish away as a GOOD thing!

It's never a good idea to do an "alpha roll" to a dog or puppy. All you do is risk damaging you relationship with the dog, and you don't teach them a thing. The reason Miller snapped is that he was defending himself against something he found ver aversive. (having his nails clipped) even though you know it needs to be done. Some dogs are better abut nails than others, but with ALL of them, it's a long, slow process getting them used to it. Kodi was terrible about it. Although he never bit, he struggled so hard to get away that it was simply impossible for me to do by myself. He's almost 3 now, and it still takes our groomer doing the clipping while I stuff cookies in his mouth to keep him calm during the process. I'd love to someday be able to do it at home by myself, but we're not there yet! 

So I think that taking yourself out of the loop and having the vet do it can be a good option. Just be careful how much force they are using. I am SURE that part of the reason Kodi got as bad about it as he is, is that when I was having trouble I took him to the vet. When he struggled and screamed, they had two techs hold him down while the vet clipped his nails. This just confirmed in his little fuzzy brain that that nail clipping was a VERY SCARY THING! It has taken more than two years to undo that experience.


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## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

I don't dislike him, but I also don't use all his methods. I do use the snapping of fingers and Shh with my dogs, together with a stern voice and it seems to work.

I honestly don't think he "hurts" the dogs, but like with our own children, every parent has a different way of parenting. Some spank, some give time outs, some do both and some do none.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Carefulove said:


> I don't dislike him, but I also don't use all his methods. I do use the snapping of fingers and Shh with my dogs, together with a stern voice and it seems to work.
> 
> I honestly don't think he "hurts" the dogs, but like with our own children, every parent has a different way of parenting. Some spank, some give time outs, some do both and some do none.


I don't think he USUALLY hurts the dogs, but he has come dangerously close with some of the Bulldogs he's worked with in hot weather. I've also seen him "exercise" some little dogs to the point that they are running on 3 legs when he gets done. Not good.

I think there is some good, practical management stuff that he talks about, but I think you need to sift through things very, very carefully. But that's been true of every book I've read too. I read a lot of different authors, take away what will work for me and ignore what doesn't make sense. We're all human, including Cesar!


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## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

krandall said:


> I don't think he USUALLY hurts the dogs...


You and I don't but a lot of people do, even those that are featured on his show.
And yes, I have seen at least one "Bulldog" show where the dog's tongue was almost dragging 2 feet behind the dog...


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## curly_DC (Nov 27, 2011)

I will have to admit that I watched Cesar Milan and learned a lot about dogs from him and his pop dog psychology, and that was part of the confidence I had to finally become a pet parent. He really puts ideas into language anyone can understand. He gets a lot of flack from professional who spent a lot of time and money on degrees and certificates, and they don't have the professional success that he has achieved. 

I didn't want a small breed dog because I thought they were yappy and yippy and jumpy and biting. However, Cesar explained that small dogs don't think they're small. They only get away with that behavior because people think it's cute. Jumping would be corrected in a larger breed. I admit that I'm not always "alpha" pack leader with my little dog. However, I do get the language Cesar uses as "calm assertive," if pack leader is offensive to people or the wolf pack theories don't hold water.

I do think it's important for the human to be "calm, assertive."

And Cesar tells his story well, about coming from Mexico. Dogs roaming freely in Mexico probably did require different techniques to prevent them from getting hurt or killed. Cesar worked with pit bulls, I believe, to start out with. As you know, they don't have the best reputations. 

And Cesar is not shy about his philosophy that the world is run by highly educated people with degrees and certificates who don't necessarily do what's in the best interest of other people or dogs for that matter. 

I've also watched him with kids, and think he's great. He believes that children are great natural handlers with dogs, because they have that calm assertiveness about them.

I think some of the flack he catches is professional jealousy, just like Rachel Ray gets for being extremely popular without any formal training or education as a professional chef.


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

Carefulove said:


> I don't dislike him, but I also don't use all his methods. I do use the snapping of fingers and Shh with my dogs, together with a stern voice and it seems to work.
> 
> I honestly don't think he "hurts" the dogs, but like with our own children, every parent has a different way of parenting. Some spank, some give time outs, some do both and some do none.


I believe he DOES hurt the dogs, and their signals show that. I learned the hard way to use positive reinforcement.

Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:17:08 (PDT)


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## curly_DC (Nov 27, 2011)

I've only watched Dog Whisperer on demand, and I've not ever seen him hurt a dog. As for the bulldogs, I thought he said on his show that the bulldog is the number 1 popular breed of pet in California, Cesar's locale. So, wouldn't he know how to work with the bulldogs? And, he does say that dog's aren't people and we shouldn't attribute our psychology (often dysfunctional) to the psychology of dogs or we will turn them neurotic. I'm reading one of his books now, and he has Ian Dunbar in the book with some color photographs, where he acknowledges that everyone has different training methods. He explains that he didn't always observe the best methods. And there's a note at the beginning of the show "don't try this at home."


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## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

CarolWCamelo said:


> I believe he DOES hurt the dogs, and their signals show that...


We'll just have to disagree on that. Just because we all love Havaneses doesn't mean that we have to agree on everything! I am OK with that! :ranger:


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## Ruthi (Nov 10, 2011)

I like him, and I think a lot of dogs that would have been put down have been saved by him. Most of the dogs he works with are far past the type of treatment the average joe is capable of doing. I think like Karen said, you have to take what works for you from it. Each dog is different in personality, and what works for you, may not work for me. I admire Ceasar and the work is he doing to save dogs.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

curly_DC said:


> I will have to admit that I watched Cesar Milan and learned a lot about dogs from him and his pop dog psychology, and that was part of the confidence I had to finally become a pet parent. He really puts ideas into language anyone can understand. He gets a lot of flack from professional who spent a lot of time and money on degrees and certificates, and they don't have the professional success that he has achieved.
> 
> I didn't want a small breed dog because I thought they were yappy and yippy and jumpy and biting. However, Cesar explained that small dogs don't think they're small. They only get away with that behavior because people think it's cute. Jumping would be corrected in a larger breed. I admit that I'm not always "alpha" pack leader with my little dog. However, I do get the language Cesar uses as "calm assertive," if pack leader is offensive to people or the wolf pack theories don't hold water.
> 
> ...


I don't think he's necessarily "more successful" than other professionals, except in terms of TV fame, and I'm not sure that's what most dog professionals would choose. The reason most GOOD positive based trainers don't like him is that they see people try to use his methods, not on soft, easy to train dogs like most Havanese, but on more difficult dogs. The result is either a dog that is traumatized or a human who gets hurt.

As far as little dogs being obnoxious... Any good trainer will tell you the same thing that Cesar does...this is a "human problem" not a dog problem. Go to any obedience trial and watch 4 lb Pomeranians perform, and you'll see that little dogs are every bit as trainable as big dogs.

Cesar didn't start with Pit Bulls. He actually started as a groomer, often working on little, spoiled, snappy Beverly Hills toy dogs. He got a reputation for being able to handle dogs no one else wanted to deal with. He absolutely DOES have a very calm, business-like demeanor that dogs respond positively to. Then he started rehabbing Rotties. It was only after that that he seemed to get more and more Pits, often dogs that no one else wanted to work with. Again, he has going in his favor that he's absolutely fearless. Much more than ANY professional who didn't want to get sued would be... It's just not responsible to have people continue on with a dog that is likely to hurt them or their kids. In the last year or so, I've seen Cesar on a couple of occasions offer to trade a calm, well balanced dog for one that he is afraid just can't be trusted in a family situation, and I give him a TON of credit for showing that not every dog can be "saved" in every home.

The other thing I give Cesar credit for is that he continues to learn, and you really see his methods becoming "kinder and gentler" over time. I've even heard him explaining that "discipline" doesn't mean "punishment". And the big point positive trainers want to make is that you CAN get EXCELLENT results with positive training methods. So I think that he is coming around closer to main-stream scientifically based training methods. OTOH, Cesar has popularized some really, REALLY bad practices like alpha rolls and flooding.

I do agree that with some trainers, there is just a knee-jeck negative reaction against him, and I ask those people to watch some of his more recent shows. But I also think that a lot of those people who think of Cesar as the second coming are comparing "Cesar's way" with "no training at all, as opposed to "Cesar's way" compared to good, consistent positive based training.


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## marlowe'sgirl (Jun 17, 2010)

I've only seen his show a couple of times, but I did buy his how to raise a perfect puppy book when I was first thinking about getting a dog and trying to learn everything possible. I agree that "being the alpha dog" and using "dominance" to control your dog is not the best idea - esp with Havs. My pup is naturally the beta dog in every interaction (people or dogs or cats), a sensitive soul, so eager to please and has never showed an hint of aggression towards any animal/person. He becomes the saddest dog in the world with just being given an exasperated look or sometimes if someone else is yelling at their own dog in the dog park. He wouldn't be the happy, confident dog he is now without positive reinforcement; he probably would have just crumbled under strict dominance interactions.

However, what I did find helpful from his book is his mantras of being 'calm assertive' in your interactions with your dog (ie freaking out/yelling when a puppy does something wrong is very counterproductive), the quick Shh! to tell your pup to stop whatever, and that when house-training, an accident is not your dog's fault, but a failure of communication or failure to notice signals on your part and a well exercised dog is a well behaved dog (ie don't skip out a good walk each day or else the destructive chewing/whatever is on you). It was helpful to get me in the mindset that nothing's the puppy's fault, just a failure to communicate on my part. Where I differ with CM is that I think my pup responds better to communication with a yummy treat than a dominance maneuver.

The book was a useful read for me as a complete neophyte, but nothing was more valuable than great training classes with a positive reinforcement based system.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

curly_DC said:


> I've only watched Dog Whisperer on demand, and I've not ever seen him hurt a dog. As for the bulldogs, I thought he said on his show that the bulldog is the number 1 popular breed of pet in California, Cesar's locale. So, wouldn't he know how to work with the bulldogs? And, he does say that dog's aren't people and we shouldn't attribute our psychology (often dysfunctional) to the psychology of dogs or we will turn them neurotic. I'm reading one of his books now, and he has Ian Dunbar in the book with some color photographs, where he acknowledges that everyone has different training methods. He explains that he didn't always observe the best methods. And there's a note at the beginning of the show "don't try this at home."


He has had Bulldogs VERY close to heat prostration on the show... to the point that he's had to stop in the middle of filming, grab a hose off someones lawn to hose them down. That is NOT humane treatment.

And the fact that you haven't "seen" him hurt a dog is exactly the problem. You (and many MANY viewers) don't know enough to recognize the calming signals many of the dogs are throwing on an ongoing basis. If by "hurting" the dog, you just mean blood or yelping in pain, then, no, he doesn't "hurt" dogs that way. He DOES very often hurt their psyche, however. Very often, what looks like a "miraculous" transformation into what he calls a "calm submissive" dog, is actually a totally shut-down dog. Where a dog goes from there can depend on the dog. Some can take a lot of abuse and bounce back. Some can be seriously traumatized in ways that they may or may not recover from, and some, when they get past that "shut down", can lash out and hurt someone... badly.

I don't know what Ian Dunbar's doing... maybe he's offering an olive branch. In the past, he has been one of the most vocal anti CM people around.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

marlowe'sgirl said:


> However, what I did find helpful from his book is his mantras of being 'calm assertive' in your interactions with your dog (ie freaking out/yelling when a puppy does something wrong is very counterproductive), the quick Shh! to tell your pup to stop whatever, and that when house-training, an accident is not your dog's fault, but a failure of communication or failure to notice signals on your part and a well exercised dog is a well behaved dog (ie don't skip out a good walk each day or else the destructive chewing/whatever is on you). It was helpful to get me in the mindset that nothing's the puppy's fault, just a failure to communicate on my part. Where I differ with CM is that I think my pup responds better to communication with a yummy treat than a dominance maneuver.
> 
> The book was a useful read for me as a complete neophyte, but nothing was more valuable than great training classes with a positive reinforcement based system.


Very well said. You've taken away what makes sense and left the rest for the TV audience!


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

*Continuing studies (CM and beyond)*

I have no problems agreeing to disagree with anybody here. I can, though, invite you to do as I have done, and spend 35+ years studying dog behavior in detail, and using what you learn when working with dogs - your own, or anybody else's.

Here's a site you might find helpful:

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/

With time, I can look up a bunch of other interesting and helpful references.

In principle, when studying anything, I prefer not to assume whatever I meet first has the whole story, but to continue investigating, instead. And - I invite you to do the same!

Before settling permanently on one kind of solution, it seems to me always good to search out other possibilities as well.

In friendship always,

Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:15:53 (PDT)


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

*On being calm and assertive (good stuff!)*

Dr. Nancy Kay, board-certified veterinarian in Internal Medicine, is wrapping up two weeks as a guest on the Yahoo Group DogRead.

We were just talking about visiting hospitalized patients.

Being calm and assertive, seems to me, is EXACTLY what is required of us - we who keep dogs (regardless of breed) as animal companions. Our dogs have ONLY us to care for them - that is, to see to their daily (and weekly and yearly) needs. Dogs are still property (how silly, but that's the law; however, WE do not need to treat our dogs as property, and I strongly doubt anybody here does that!).

When taking care of our dogs at home, yes; we need to be calm and assertive. This is true regardless of the dog's condition - mental and physical.

I'll just point out that CM doesn't have a monopoly on the idea ;-) That idea has been around for many decades, and is often included without specifying, but by implication, in large multitudes of works on training and caring for dogs (keeping them).

Other useful materials are shown here:

http://www.coherentdog.org/links.php

with sufficient comment to indicate that I don't necessarily agree with every detail of the works mentioned there. All of them are worth very thorough investigation and study, though.

And most of all, watching and working with many dogs, of different kinds, provides lessons for us.

Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:34:09 (PDT)


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

I think with Cesar, there's a lot of different angles and layers to consider. First, it's on TV and edited, so you don't really have a complete story, just whatever looks best within the time alloted. Second, Cesar is often shown working with difficult dogs and owners who are at the end of their rope, not a golden retriever puppy, and there is absolutely no way to train a large out of control dog to sit nicely the same way you can clicker train a puppy. 

And I think the most important point is, forget about if you agree or partially/mostly agree with his method or are totally against it, Cesar is one of the best at reading a dog's body signals. Maybe he isn't interpreting it in a mainstream way like the shutting down thing, I tend to agree with that a lot of the times the dogs are shutting down, but is that the best way to go at the problem if it can be done in another way and how bad is the behavior. If it's a bad behavior like being food aggressive, I agree with Cesar, I want to send a clear message to the dog that I'm going to stand my ground and it is not ok to growl or snap. You have to feed and handle your dog's food every day so it's very dangerous if the dog is doing that. Having said that, if you don't know what you're doing with a dog that is behaving aggressively, you can easily get hurt and further damage the relationship with the dog. If it's something that's more of an annoying behavior, like barking, I think going with the more typical techniques would work nicely. 

If there's one thing I learned by being a groomer, it's how to read and interpret a dog's body signals. I have to do things to dogs on a daily basis that most dogs don't like having done, like clipping nails, plucking ears and cutting hair, and I have to have lightning-fast reflexes and make split-second decisions. I have been nearly bitten in the face several times, and by large dogs. I have had to separate dog fights, prevented fights, or tell the owners to remove their dog from the salon because it looked like it wanted to kill another dog. I've had to throw my scissors or clippers away from dogs because they were about to go after it and would have been severely injured had they bitten my open, moving scissors, and on a daily basis am doing a balancing act of pushing dogs up to what they can tollerate. Most of the time I get it right and the dog either settles or we manage to get through it, or I stop and tell the owner I can't go forward because it is too dangerous for me and the dog. Sometimes dogs don't really warn you they just go after you, and they're just too fast to get out of the way. That's how I got bit in the face last year. So I have to give a lot of credit to Cesar. When you work with a lot of dogs, it's not a matter of if you get bit but when, so I don't buy the line that because Cesar gets bit shows he is not professional enough. People, that's what happens when you ask a dangerous dog to do something it doesn't want to do!!! And it is not unreasonable to ask a dog to behave! Now, if a dog is rolling around, panting, snapping, expressing anal glands and carrying on, no I would not try to force that dog to get its nails clipped. But if it's pulling a little here and there, and I don't think it's in danger of injuring itself, yes, I will hold the dog firmly and clip the nails! How else is it going to get done? But of course there are always people that will see me doing this and cry animal cruelty. Come on! 

From my perspective, the type of dog Cesar usually works with is usually the result of one or a combo of 3 scenarios: 1. The dog gets "disciplined" by being beat. This is actually more common than people realise. These dogs end up in shelters and the ones who get adopted out, the new owners have to contend with a dog that has been treated that way. 2. The puppy shows undesireable behavior like aggression and the owners don't know how to deal with it properly. The dog now knows he just needs to growl or scream and he gets his way, aka the spoiled dog that rules the house and doesn't like to be told "no" 3. Some dogs just aren't born with a great personality just by careless breeding/inbreeding. Sometimes these dogs have to be put down like my co-worker's 8 month old english bull dog, he attacked my manager multiple times, dragged her across the room and shook her arm like a toy. She has 19 stitches and suffered re-opening of the wound, blood clots and probable surgery. The owner is devastated.

So I think Cesar is great as a part of a foundation and can be thought of as a book to add to your collection, with the understanding that some of his techiques are not appropriate in certain situations with certain dogs (these are the ones most often showed on TV, the worst case scenarios). I like the way he has people view themselves and their dogs, although from what I understand his pack theory is said to be flawed, nevertheless most dogs love being with their people and have been bred to respond to us. It's a nice framework to build on with whatever positive training you like, esp. for puppies. I've seen Cesar work in positive reinforment with treats, toys and praise, and also have seen him do many calming exercises where the dog really truly ended up relaxed and with a "happy face" or "friendly dog face", it's just been spaced out with more of the hard-core stuff in between. Also seen him work some conditioning with dogs that have anxiety. In a nutshell, Cesar is great but has to be taken with a grain of salt.


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Oh, and I have to add that some dogs that I do on a regular basis, started off screaming and hollering for their nails, but over time, some of those dogs have improved tremendously and now sit much better for nail clipping. This is because they learned to trust me and also they know I know what I'm doing. I learned even if I wasn't too sure, to "fake it" with calm, but quick, deliberate and smooth movements. I actually learned this from a horse. The horse was a rescue and was head shy, meaning he was probably beat on his head so he was hard to catch and would raise his head up when you tried to put a bridle or halter on. Anyway, I was going to put his bridle on and he was doing ok, calm and head low, when I found myself fumbling and so on with the bridle, I wasn't used to western tack and wasn't a super-experienced horse person, so all the staps etc was confusing me. The exact moment when I was completely perplexed and felt my face all knotted up trying to get that thing on him, he started up again, refusing the bit, backing up and raising his head and I instantly knew, it was like it just came to me, it's because I'm not sure of myself. I gave myself a few seconds to sort it out, let him calm down again, and then in one deliberate, purposeful motion, brought the bridle up, he accepted the bit and I got the bridle on him and went on a beautiful ride in the Rocky Mountains.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

atsilvers27 said:


> I've seen Cesar work in positive reinforment with treats, toys and praise, and also have seen him do many calming exercises where the dog really truly ended up relaxed and with a "happy face" or "friendly dog face", it's just been spaced out with more of the hard-core stuff in between. Also seen him work some conditioning with dogs that have anxiety.


i agree. I've seen more and more examples of him working with dogs in this way in the last season ortwo. It's one of the main reasons that i'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. He his definitely learning and evolving as a trainer, and that's what we ALL should try to do in our work with dogs. If he can get to the point where he is consistently using his very real, innate ability to read dogs and influence them just with his body position and eye contact AND really learns and uses positive traning practices on a REGULAR basis, he would have the makings of a REALLY great trainer.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

atsilvers27 said:


> Oh, and I have to add that some dogs that I do on a regular basis, started off screaming and hollering for their nails, but over time, some of those dogs have improved tremendously and now sit much better for nail clipping. This is because they learned to trust me and also they know I know what I'm doing. I learned even if I wasn't too sure, to "fake it" with calm, but quick, deliberate and smooth movements. I actually learned this from a horse. The horse was a rescue and was head shy, meaning he was probably beat on his head so he was hard to catch and would raise his head up when you tried to put a bridle or halter on. Anyway, I was going to put his bridle on and he was doing ok, calm and head low, when I found myself fumbling and so on with the bridle, I wasn't used to western tack and wasn't a super-experienced horse person, so all the staps etc was confusing me. The exact moment when I was completely perplexed and felt my face all knotted up trying to get that thing on him, he started up again, refusing the bit, backing up and raising his head and I instantly knew, it was like it just came to me, it's because I'm not sure of myself. I gave myself a few seconds to sort it out, let him calm down again, and then in one deliberate, purposeful motion, brought the bridle up, he accepted the bit and I got the bridle on him and went on a beautiful ride in the Rocky Mountains.


Another really good point. I'm sure this was the start of the problem with Kodi's nails. I was a beginner at clipping a puppy's nails, was nervous about quicking him since his nails are black, had a hard time FINDING his nails in all the fur.... If I'd just been able to get the job done in a quick, no-nonsense manner, he probably would have learned to accept it better. But THEN I made the bigger mistake of taking him to the vet where they really traumatized him by having two vet techs oin him while the vet clipped his nails. From then on, he was SO convinced that the whole thing was AWFUL, that it took, literally, two years to recover from. Now I have a good groomer, who is also a trainer and knows him well, clip his nails, while I distract him and feed him treats for good behavior.


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

*Alternatives*



atsilvers27 said:


> I think with Cesar, there's a lot of different angles and layers to consider. First, it's on TV and edited, so you don't really have a complete story, just whatever looks best within the time alloted. Second, Cesar is often shown working with difficult dogs and owners who are at the end of their rope, not a golden retriever puppy, and there is absolutely no way to train a large out of control dog to sit nicely the same way you can clicker train a puppy.


Wow, you did a huge job here; I'm going to take it in bits.

Quite right; working with a dog who is already traumatized - and also can be of bad breeding, or have genetic hazards of various sorts, requires different handling and training methods from those a well-raised puppy might have.

Fortunately, over the last couple of decades, some trainers and behavior counselors have been developing alternative ways of working which can help remove some of the dangers offered by such traumatized - or genetically-disadvantaged - dogs.

Quite a few people have developed ways of working with difficult dogs that don't invite the risks CM's methods invite.

Thu, 15 Mar 2012 03:54:08 (PDT)


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

*CM changes*

In between my other replies, I want to thank you, Karen, for pointing out recent changes in CM's ways of working with dogs. Good for him. I'm glad he's changing some things!

Working on the dog's terms - that is, with what the dog is actually saying - is a really good way to work. By that I mean that a primary goal is to retain a dog's trust in us - or, work to establish it, if it's not present when we start. That can be very time-consuming. And I'm very grateful for all the people putting time in on maknig advances in learning to work with dogs so that they can begin to trust us.

Thu, 15 Mar 2012 04:03:31 (PDT)


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

*Alternatives*

ATSilvers - I can't decipher your name! Sorry for omitting it, as I can't find a signature on your posts, either.

I think both vets (and vet techs) and groomers face true difficulties; a lot depends on whether they are ready and willing to "fire" a human client when that client brings in a dangerous dog. Some actually do that!

For groomers, some might be working in a large grooming salon, and be subject to direction from somebody else; ouch; that can be awkward, too.

Anyway, I continue to be pleased when methods alternative to heavy punishment, or to actual cruel restraint, are found for working with dogs.

ATSilvers - I loved your horse story; thought it illustrates perfectly how we can, by taking a few nanoseconds to calm ourselves, often find our ways to developing or maintaining trust in the animal we're working with.

Karen, I'm sorry your vet traumatized Kodi with the nail0-clipping. My breeders did that with Kwali, and as I watched, I determined that thereafter, I would do the clipping at home - whatever it took. Without further traumatizing Kwali.

It took me four months to teach Kwali, but it worked. Whew!

Not sure I'll come back with my other bits; time is pressing on me now, as I'll be away all day today - AFTER I go back to bed for a bit more sleep; haha!

I really have to thank everyone contributing to this thread, because it's a difficult topic, and its substance rests on the morass of history in dog-training and behavior modification! Never an easy topic!

Thu, 15 Mar 2012 04:15:40 (PDT)


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## curly_DC (Nov 27, 2011)

As for Cesar, he repeatedly says that he's not a dog trainer, but a dog psychologist. Maybe that's part of his Hollywood act and he purposely calls himself a dog psychologist with a dog psychology center, just to annoy all of those degreed professionals who have a piece of paper stating they are REAL psychologists. He says he trains people! 

I didn't read any where in his book that he started out as a Beverly Hills groomer. He did grow up in Mexico and he worked in a kennel. There he observed training methods that he later learned were harmful to dogs. He said that he did gain popularity working with pitbulls in LA, especially in parks where people could see him. He wrote that people wanted security dogs, like pitbulls, but they weren't handling the dogs. His first celebrity client was Jada Pinkett before she became really successful. She had more than one pitbull.

As for positive reinforcement training and treats, maybe it's because my dog is 2 years old, and he's already had a lot of basic training, I don't really use treats with him. I haven't found any treats I like. He just doesn't seem to be food motivated. He eats his dry kibble in the morning and evening. What really motivates him is my attention and affection. I do hope that's not because I'm gone during the day at work. 

I give him a lot of "good boy" and "you're such a good dog" and "Sergio's the greatest dog in the world." When we go on walks, if the weather is nice, I will stop at a bench and he puts his paws up to get on my lap. Now, every time we pass a bench, he does the head tilt. He looks forward to sitting in my lap and taking in his surroundings. And people passing by saying, "What a cute dog!!" And I pet him and tell him what a great dog he is. I love that time with him! And really, I would rather he be motivated by something other than food. 

Cesar's philosophy toward treats to me makes sense. He doesn't believe in giving treats for what the dog should be doing naturally. But treats might be a reward for actual training, like the dog performing tricks, when the dog is asked to do something he wouldn't naturally do on his own. I would rather my dog respond to my voice or my hands or my body language, than treats or a clicker. He explains that with his kids, he wouldn't reward them for doing things they should be doing on their own, but he would reward them for getting an "A" in math after studying.


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## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

CarolWCamelo said:


> I have no problems agreeing to disagree with anybody here. I can, though, invite you to do as I have done, and spend 35+ years studying dog behavior in detail, and using what you learn when working with dogs - your own, or anybody else's.
> 
> Here's a site you might find helpful:
> 
> ...


Carol,

I am in fact, happy with the way I teach my dogs. I have had dogs on and off for over 25 years and have had my share of trouble. I am happy with the methods I currently use with my dogs and the results I get.  furthermore, I see no problem with some finger snapping, a shh here and there and some calm assertive attitude. My dogs respond to it very well.



curly_DC said:


> ...Cesar's philosophy toward treats to me makes sense. He doesn't believe in giving treats for what the dog should be doing naturally. But treats might be a reward for actual training, like the dog performing tricks, when the dog is asked to do something he wouldn't naturally do on his own.* I would rather my dog respond to my voice or my hands or my body language, than treats or a clicker*. He explains that with his kids, he wouldn't reward them for doing things they should be doing on their own, but he would reward them for getting an "A" in math after studying.


Totally Agree CDC. The only time I have used treats are to encourage Toby's potty training (along with calm assertive attitude/voice) and for Tricks (with Bumi).
I have managed to teach Bumi to walk off leash (staying within 1-2 ft radius from my leg) without the use of any treat. Even during Elementary School dismissal hour.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

curly_DC said:


> I didn't read any where in his book that he started out as a Beverly Hills groomer. He did grow up in Mexico and he worked in a kennel. There he observed training methods that he later learned were harmful to dogs.


He does tell this in at least one of his books... he's written so many (many of which say a lot of the same.) He's also talked about is start as a groomer on the show a couple of times when he's worked on grooming little dogs that won;t let groomers near them. He was also an illegal immigrant, something that he has also admitted. It helps to have friends in high places.:biggrin1:



curly_DC said:


> As for positive reinforcement training and treats, maybe it's because my dog is 2 years old, and he's already had a lot of basic training, I don't really use treats with him. I haven't found any treats I like. He just doesn't seem to be food motivated. He eats his dry kibble in the morning and evening. What really motivates him is my attention and affection. I do hope that's not because I'm gone during the day at work.
> 
> I give him a lot of "good boy" and "you're such a good dog" and "Sergio's the greatest dog in the world." When we go on walks, if the weather is nice, I will stop at a bench and he puts his paws up to get on my lap. Now, every time we pass a bench, he does the head tilt. He looks forward to sitting in my lap and taking in his surroundings. And people passing by saying, "What a cute dog!!" And I pet him and tell him what a great dog he is. I love that time with him! And really, I would rather he be motivated by something other than food.
> 
> Cesar's philosophy toward treats to me makes sense. He doesn't believe in giving treats for what the dog should be doing naturally. But treats might be a reward for actual training, like the dog performing tricks, when the dog is asked to do something he wouldn't naturally do on his own. I would rather my dog respond to my voice or my hands or my body language, than treats or a clicker. He explains that with his kids, he wouldn't reward them for doing things they should be doing on their own, but he would reward them for getting an "A" in math after studying.


You are right, a dog shouldn't need treats for already learned behaviors, especially if your talking about simple "good house manners" and appropriate social skills. But this isn;t training, unless the puppy is very, very young. If you aren't interested in teaching your dog any more advanced behaviors, then, sure, you can get away without food rewards. If you want to teach your dogs more, (and to many, if not most dogs, this special "training" time with their owners is FUN!!! It's play to them!) food rewards are almost a necessity.

I hear people say all the time that their dog isn't "food motivated". I haven't met one yet that once they understand the "game", and if the RIGHT type of treat is offered, is not "food motivated". Try giving Sergio some chopped up fresh chicken neck, and I'll bet dollars to donuts that he'd be pretty "food motivated!":biggrin1:

As far as the clicker is concerned, properly used, the dog does NOT "respond" to the clicker. The clicker is the HUMAN response to a behavior that meets set criteria. It marks, "Yes! THAT is what I wanted!"

Oh, and "naturally, on their own, dogs would do almost NOTHING we ask of them. They grub for food, (dogs are not predators, like wolves, they are scavengers), eliminate, procreate (most social behavior revolves around this) and they sleep. That is pretty much the extent of their "natural behavior" Pretty much EVERYTHING we ask of them is WAY outside the range of "natural behavior".


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## Kalico (Jan 11, 2012)

I occasionally watch Ceasar's show but my feeling is always that so much is left out that we don't see that it is best taken with a grain of salt. I do admire Ceasar's dedication and confidence with dogs. I particularly like his philosophy that the owners need as much or more training than dogs. The more I learn about dog training, the more I see people doing the "wrong" things with their dogs. I put it in quotes because the reality is that although there may be certain methods we know work better than others, or may be better for dogs, most people just treat their dogs the way they treat them without much thought going into it, and of all the people I see who are doing it "wrong" according to current popular notions, only a handful of those people are in situations in which there is a real problem with the dog. 

Training methods evolve over time, and in fifty years there will undoubtedly be changes in our methods no matter how right we may think we are today. The reason for this is because the methods aren't based solely on dogs or dog psychology, but on our relationship with dogs and what we need/expect from that relationship. Fifty years ago dogs were often (in my dad's words : ) "those animals that ran around in the yard," and this is still the case in many places. But in America they have more and more become beloved family members who sleep on our pillows (and this change in perception of a dog's role is happening in other countries now). That difference is immense. Training methods have evolved to reflect this. Not that there weren't people fifty years ago who used what we would call positive methods, but they would have been the ones receiving the criticism. Anyway, my point is that while I believe it is possible to say that some methods are better than others, and that our understanding of dog psychology has improved over time, there is still much of this that is relative to time and place.


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

krandall said:


> [snip]
> 
> You are right, a dog shouldn't need treats for already learned behaviors, especially if your talking about simple "good house manners" and appropriate social skills. But this isn;t training, unless the puppy is very, very young. If you aren't interested in teaching your dog any more advanced behaviors, then, sure, you can get away without food rewards. If you want to teach your dogs more, (and to many, if not most dogs, this special "training" time with their owners is FUN!!! It's play to them!) food rewards are almost a necessity.
> 
> ...


Very perceptive and well-educated post, Karen, but, then, why am I not surprised!

It's also possible to train, though with far less precision, using a word as an "event marker" ("Click!" for instance!) instead of the clicker. I know you know that. For real precision, though, it's hard to beat the clicker. Which takes some time and study for the clicking human!

A few other thoughts, and I hope to add more to this discussion later:

Obedience is tricks, and tricks are obedience. How should a dog know the difference? From a dog's point of view, I don't think there is one.

I perceive part of the APPARENT disjunction in this entire conversation as one of being stuck in historical, cultural views of dogs as caring about "dominance," or wanting to pull power-plays, or caring about a hierarchy. It's very understandable that maybe sitll 60 to 80% of dog-trainers remain ignorant of the flaws in the dominance model that purports to explain dog-behavior.

A few examples of the sort of things that can cause confusion:

If we allow dogs to beg at the (human) table, they are likely to do that! If we indicated to them a place to lie down and wait till the humans have finished eating, they will do THAT, provided we teach them to. Food rewards can help with that.

Before I learned to use the clicker-with-treats, I taught my then Australian Terrier to lie down on her bed at a distance from the Human Table - just by repeatedly going over to her bed, calling her, and remaining with her there till she lay down. Didn't take long to teach; she was both very intelligent, very socially-oriented with me - and also, very cooperative. She always got a reward after the humans had finished eating. We'd clear the table, and, in the kitchen, afterwards, I'd feed her three tiny tidbits I'd saved from my meal. Counting! One, Two, Three!

Which brings up the love dogs have of routines - ones that are predictable - stuff they can count on. It adds interest to their day. And having routines that are predictable are very reassuring to a dog. Ritual becomes a part of that, and having rituals that "mark" the routines, in a way similar to how a clicker marks the exact desired behavior, but without the precision, is also very delightful for the dog. Reassuring, too, particularly, for traumatized dogs like my Camellia.

There's only one behavior I've been teaching Camellia since she became my dog - that is, recall. I'm very, very careful how I teach it, because recall can be a lifesaver. Camellia is pretty good at it, but I can't lean on it the way I could with Kwali and Kumbi (my two Australian Terriers), because the training isn't solid enough yet with Camellia.

On the OTHER hand, Camellia has twice gotten loose outside, and both times, she came to me when I called her. Why? Well, I am her security blanket!

Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:57:51 (PDT)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

CarolWCamelo said:


> She always got a reward after the humans had finished eating. We'd clear the table, and, in the kitchen, afterwards, I'd feed her three tiny tidbits I'd saved from my meal. Counting! One, Two, Three!


Just had to tell you about a "problem" I had with Kodi... well, I THOUGHT the problem was with Kodi. I had never, EVER fed him from the table. And I had been very consistent making sure no one else did either. Still, he circles the table like a shark, and occasionally even puts his feet on someone's lap. I continued to ignore and never, ever feed. This behavior would go away, right?

Well, one night at dinner, I remarked to my husband that for a smart dog, Kodi was taking an AWFULLY long time catching onto this. I got a VERY guilty look, not from Kodi but from DAVE! It turns out that I had trained the family only to not feed Kodi when *I* was at the table!ound:

Fortunately, since laying the law down with the humans (felt like getting the prong collars out for the bunch of them!:frusty things have gotten much better. He's still circling like a shark, but he has given up putting his feet up on peoples' laps.:biggrin1:


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## heatherk (Feb 24, 2011)

krandall said:


> Just had to tell you about a "problem" I had with Kodi... well, I THOUGHT the problem was with Kodi. I had never, EVER fed him from the table. And I had been very consistent making sure no one else did either. Still, he circles the table like a shark, and occasionally even puts his feet on someone's lap. I continued to ignore and never, ever feed. This behavior would go away, right?
> 
> Well, one night at dinner, I remarked to my husband that for a smart dog, Kodi was taking an AWFULLY long time catching onto this. I got a VERY guilty look, not from Kodi but from DAVE! It turns out that I had trained the family only to not feed Kodi when *I* was at the table!ound:
> 
> Fortunately, since laying the law down with the humans (felt like getting the prong collars out for the bunch of them!:frusty things have gotten much better. He's still circling like a shark, but he has given up putting his feet up on peoples' laps.:biggrin1:


Hahaha . Yea, it's pretty much always the humans isn't it. Cey never gets fed from the table (Elissa, my daughter, is very good about that) so he's pretty good about not begging or anything during mealtime, but sometimes after I eat chips or the like, I let him lick my fingers clean. Which has led to him getting VERY alert and trying to slink up next to me whenever a chip bag comes out lol.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

ha ha ha ha Karen, that is HILARIOUS!!! MEN! sigh....
We never feed Tillie EVER from the table... we don't have to... my daughter drops SO much food that Tillie literally STANDS under her chair.... LOL


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## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

krandall said:


> Just had to tell you about a "problem" I had with Kodi... well, I THOUGHT the problem was with Kodi. I had never, EVER fed him from the table. And I had been very consistent making sure no one else did either. Still, he circles the table like a shark, and occasionally even puts his feet on someone's lap. I continued to ignore and never, ever feed. This behavior would go away, right?
> 
> Well, one night at dinner, I remarked to my husband that for a smart dog, Kodi was taking an AWFULLY long time catching onto this. I got a VERY guilty look, not from Kodi but from DAVE! It turns out that I had trained the family only to not feed Kodi when *I* was at the table!ound:
> 
> Fortunately, since laying the law down with the humans (felt like getting the prong collars out for the bunch of them!:frusty things have gotten much better. He's still circling like a shark, but he has given up putting his feet up on peoples' laps.:biggrin1:


I usually put both dogs (Toby is catching up really quick now) by the siliding door next to the table and tell them to stay. Still, at some point during the meal, they move (a step at the time, and always looking at me from the corner of their eye :brick and move next to my Husband and the kids (round table, I face DH, and the kids face each other, so the dogs go on the other side of the table). I always wondered why, until I realized that the booger gives them food when I am not looking ound: and my kids pretend to "Drop" food by accident :frusty:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Carefulove said:


> I usually put both dogs (Toby is catching up really quick now) by the siliding door next to the table and tell them to stay. Still, at some point during the meal, they move (a step at the time, and always looking at me from the corner of their eye :brick and move next to my Husband and the kids (round table, I face DH, and the kids face each other, so the dogs go on the other side of the table). I always wondered why, until I realized that the booger gives them food when I am not looking ound: and my kids pretend to "Drop" food by accident :frusty:


All our good training is for naught! That's what you get when you live in a house full of boys!ound:


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

krandall said:


> [snip]
> 
> Well, one night at dinner, I remarked to my husband that for a smart dog, Kodi was taking an AWFULLY long time catching onto this. I got a VERY guilty look, not from Kodi but from DAVE! It turns out that I had trained the family only to not feed Kodi when *I* was at the table!ound:


Very funny, Karen! You knew Kodi was smart, after all!

Fri, 16 Mar 2012 21:40:16 (PDT)


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

I should keep my mouth shut or my fingers in my pockets but have to add my two cents. I do like Cesar and I don't think he hurts the dogs. I do believe in the pack concept. We call it the pecking order around here. But every dog I have ever seen or been around has always known its pecking order or found out pretty soon from the dominant one. In my house my DH was Rosie's "litter mate" and she never minded him. He finally caught on and took a different attitude with her and now she minds him also. Growing up on a farm, I learned at an early age that all animals have an order. If you have more that one of something, one will be dominant. I love to watch the chickens when a new one is introduced to the flock. A lot of pushing off the roost goes on until the new one establishes its place. Course the rooster is the leader of the pack here. We are all scared of it. lol


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

Luciledodd said:


> I should keep my mouth shut or my fingers in my pockets but have to add my two cents. I do like Cesar and I don't think he hurts the dogs. I do believe in the pack concept. We call it the pecking order around here. But every dog I have ever seen or been around has always known its pecking order or found out pretty soon from the dominant one. In my house my DH was Rosie's "litter mate" and she never minded him. He finally caught on and took a different attitude with her and now she minds him also. Growing up on a farm, I learned at an early age that all animals have an order. If you have more that one of something, one will be dominant. I love to watch the chickens when a new one is introduced to the flock. A lot of pushing off the roost goes on until the new one establishes its place. Course the rooster is the leader of the pack here. We are all scared of it. lol


Oh, don't keep your mouth shut! Let me suggest that any or all of us don't know everything at any stage of our lives - there's always more to learn, and I trust I'll keep learning all my life. Hope all of us can do that!

About hurting dogs, I don't have TV, but have seen numbers of video clips, in which CM strings dogs up by the neck, and jerks hard on the leash. I'll never be convinced that isn't painful for the dog; the responses from the dogs in question, I think, support my idea that it's painful. Karen has remarked that CM has made changes. What and how much, I don't know.

About the "pack concept," there's lots of material available for reading. The idea of "pack" arose from looking at captive wolves. A true expert on wolves, David Mech, changed his views after a time. He said wolves don't have packs, but rather, FAMILIES. (He's observed wolves in the wild as well.)

In families, you have parents. With us and our dogs, WE are the parents, because we are the ones solely responsible for the well-beings of our dogs. Wolves didn't (and usually don't) have humans to be their parents and caretakers.

In a family of wolves, each wolf has a particular job at a particular time. Very much like a well-organized family of humans, where Mum and Dad each do certain specific jobs, and the children may also have jobs, sharing in the work of the household.

That's a very social organization, and domestic dogs have similar social organizations, with a few specific rules, all designed to AVOID CONFLICT! That's the part each of us can discover, if we watch well-bred, un-traumatized dogs exchanging signals with each other, or playing with each other. Always provided all their real needs are met.

About dominance - I know nothing about poultry! You know a ton more than I do about that. Different species may have different dominance structures.

In my experience, we can understand dogs best, read their signals best, if we dump the idea of dominance as an organizing principle. Dominance among dogs is defined as having priority access to valuable resources, but it turns out that dogs respect other dogs, so that if one wants a certain thing more than the other dogs do, that wanting-dog is granted access to the resource at the time. And it's fluid; one dog may be hungrier than the others at a particular time, and, later, being sated, may give way to another dog. So, it's fluid and flexible.

Some of the most useful materials about domestic dogs have links on my links page, here:

http://www.coherentdog.org/links.php

Probably the most useful starting place, if you want to learn about dog-signals, is the work of Turid Rugaas, particularly, on canine calming signals. The book _Dogs_ by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger, is very instructive; it takes careful reading. Same for the book by Alexandra Semyonova.

If all your dogs are healthy and happy, and get along well with you and the rest of their world, I don't think it's crucial to put in deep study. I DO think it's just as well to be cautious in giving advice to others, as others may have different situations from ours, so if you're getting into teaching, it becomes important at least to be aware of how history has gone in dog-training and behavior studies, and to pick out what would best suit your particular clients.

Above all, the more we enjoy our dogs, the better off they are.

Sat, 17 Mar 2012 08:29:11 (PDT)


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Carol I have no desire to teach anyone anything. The question was asked about how we feel...? I personally don't see any difference between pack and family. And yes a lot of the times the dominant one will let the lessor one have its way. We have a large extended human family and just watch the children play. There is always one that is bossing the others and it changes as they age. Now I will agree that the dominant one will let another dog think it is the dominant one. I had a very well-bred, well trained, Alsation from age one until he died around 13-14. He didn't allow another male dog in his yard, unless they turned their bellies up; but was well trained enough that if I brought one in, he let it alone. My little schnauzer thought she was the dominant one, but he just let her think it because she was little. But she always tried to put her front feet on his back, he would just walk off. The two little calves are in the process of establishing their pecking order. There is a lot of head butting and shoving going on now, but in another week it will be all peaceful with them. One of them will dominate and the other will follow.


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

Hehe, well, since "dominance" among domestic dogs doesn't make sense to me, I'm not following you well ;-D

But there was a time when I believed in it. I found that put a huge spanner in the works for me; it took me a year or so to dump the dominance model - and suddenly, after I learned about the canine calming signals (and thoroughly tested their existence and relevance, before accepting the idea), inter-dog actions began to make exquisite sense to me. And still does, to this day. It's just wonderful what kind of interaction we can see among dogs, once we learn the calming signals.

So if you ever feel like looking up that information, I invite you to!

As undoubtedly you've figured out, I don't like it when dogs get hurt - when they are caused pain - by humans, with the one exception that if it's necessary for medical purposes, I can and will accept that. I've taught on and off over the years, but usually found I haven't had to teach students what causing pain to a dog looks like. Most seem to be aware, but some, if too much caught up in a need to "control the dog," can lose sight of that.

Causing a dog pain tends to provoke defensive aggression in the dog, and as time goes on, the dog either shuts down and becomes unresponsive, or escalates the aggression in an attempt to ward off further aggression from humans or other animals. That's why, for anybody doing conitinuing studies on their dogs or other dogs, and especially, for anybody planning to teach, I dig into the resources available to us.

Simply, there are consequences to causing a dog pain, and my last three dogs have been examples of dogs badly traumatized by that. Camellia is one of them, so naturally, I'm sensitive to these things.

I'm happy to report, though, that my Australian Terrier Kumbi, after he developed diabetes, helped me learn how to deliver painless insulin injections. He would coach me. Didn't take me long to learn; he was so helpful!

http://www.coherentdog.org/vek/painlessinj.php

And then, too, we can learn how to teach dogs whatever is really important to teach them, without causing them pain.

So that's the reason for my interest!

Sat, 17 Mar 2012 11:54:53 (PDT)


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## miller123 (Aug 13, 2011)

Ruthi said:


> I like him, and I think a lot of dogs that would have been put down have been saved by him. Most of the dogs he works with are far past the type of treatment the average joe is capable of doing. I think like Karen said, you have to take what works for you from it. Each dog is different in personality, and what works for you, may not work for me. I admire Ceasar and the work is he doing to save dogs.


Exactly what i was thinking, he works with alot of red zone cases where the dogs would have been put down if he didnt come to help. But personaly, i wouldent hire him unless i had a redzone case. i would go to a more positive reward trainer first. i like victoria stilwell (not shure if thats how you spell her last name). have you guys heard of her? she has a show on animal planet.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ye, I've seen her show, and I think she uses much more positive methods IN GENERAL. But I still don't like that the show is so much "show biz", with the dogs starting off at the absolute worst they can possibly arrange and catch on camera, then she comes in with lost of eye rolling over everything the owners are doing wrong, and in the end of a half hour segment, the dogs are calm, and happy, and life is rosy. Training dogs is HARD WORK if your really want to get it right.


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

krandall said:


> Ye, I've seen her show, and I think she uses much more positive methods IN GENERAL. But I still don't like that the show is so much "show biz", with the dogs starting off at the absolute worst they can possibly arrange and catch on camera, then she comes in with lost of eye rolling over everything the owners are doing wrong, and in the end of a half hour segment, the dogs are calm, and happy, and life is rosy. Training dogs is HARD WORK if your really want to get it right.


I agree about Victoria Stillwell. And about the hard work. The FIRST hard work is for US - to come to understand how dogs are affected by what we do.

If we get aggressive with dogs, we stimulate them to be aggressive with us, which turns things into a power-play. Dogs don't DO power-plays by nature; that's a HUMAN ploy. But we can teach them to fight us back - to bite us, for instance, which is why CM has been bitten a lot.

The useful way to work with aggression in dogs is to remove the reasons for the dogs to get aggressive. Very happily, more and more trainers and behavior counselors are learning useful techniques for helping dogs past their aggressive tendencies - by removing the reasons for the dogs to become aggressive.

Aggression arises from the limbic system - the emotional being of the dog. It is not easy to overcome, once stimulated. It takes a long time and a lot of patience, so the dog can learn to trust.

That means, too, that WE have to earn the dog's trust.

It's hard work to get this stuff sorted out.

I've just discovered the work of Jolanta Benal, who is a guest for the next two weeks on the Yahoo DogRead group. Hey! I REALLY like what she is writing there! I put links in a post just now, but I can't remember on what thread. Short memory; senior moment!

Sat, 17 Mar 2012 19:16:39 (PDT)


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