# before and after... sigh...



## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

Okay, today was THE day. Grooming day.

I was hesitant for the groomer to take TOO much off... so she didn't take MUCH of at all. EXCEPT for her MUZZLE! grrrrrr... seriously. She SHAVED it. The spot up near her eyes. SHAVED. seriously? I know it will grow and at least it isn't the WHOLE muzzle, but still... last time Tillie was in, her groomer was even talking about how they NEVER shave a Havanese, anywhere... oh ya? sigh AND they didn't clean her EARS. seriously? anywho... she got a scissor cut and a SUPER dooper "poop shoot" ~ I'm sure her behind is chilly! LOL The kids are a little grossed out, cause you can really see everything "down there" ... ummmmmm... anywho, here are a few pictures.... sigh... 
the bottom ones with the bow are the "after" pics, she LOOKS so sad... she was VERY, very tired... sigh...


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Awwhhh....remember it grows back.:hug:


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

Weeeelllll, first of all, Tillie is going to be cute, no matter what. But I can see what you mean by the shaving around the nose. I would have to say I liked her hair BEFORE it was cut. There have been others on the forum who have had that area shaved by the groomer, much to their dismay. It does grow back. But it would make me wonder what kind of training some groomers have. I may have told this story before - where my SIL in Mt. lives, a woman and her daughter bought a grooming business with the agreement that the previous owner would train them for a month. After a week, the new owners dismissed the previous owner from their agreement - they felt they knew it all. I saw some of their 'work'. Atrocious. But they were the only 'game' in town, so unless people were willing or could cut their own dogs or wanted to drive out of town for miles, they were stuck with these incompetent groomers. At least it isn't a permanent condition; Tillie's hair will grow back. I think that is why so many forum members have learned to groom their own Havs.  Because they were unhappy with 'professional' haircuts and had to pay for it on top of it all.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

She's cute as a button no matter what you do to her, but I feel for you. They had done that with Milo once or twice and I wanted to kill them. I'm seriously thinking of learning how to do this myself -- but then again, when I think of attempting three, I get a little less enthusiastic.

As others have said, thankfully it grows back.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

thanks, I know it grows back, it is just frustrating as you all know!
And YES, i think she looks better before the "grooming" also... oh well, live and learn!
this is our second groomer, I hate switching, I know it is hard for her when she has to adjust to a new place, new people, etc... how many groomings should I "try" before I switch? This was the first time she had been cut down, usually it is just feet, face and behind... 2nd time at this particular groomer. The other one was great, until I discovered that they had NEVER even looked in her ears and she ended up with an atrocious double ear infection. never went back to that one... sigh... I wish there was a local Hav owner/breeder or someone that could teach me how to do it on my own. I don't learn very well from online videos...
how long does it take for the muzzle hair to grow out? sigh... I should have known this was a bad idea...


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## Annie Clark (Nov 6, 2008)

She is adorable both ways...Funny though because Nala looks a lot like her and just got groomed and she has no muzzle! This has never happened before. I emphasized not cutting her bangs, eyes etc so much that I forgot to mention the muzzle. I keep telling her she looks like a little french dog with long ears and no muzzle. They cut her legs shorter so she won't turn into such a snowball but left all her beautiful fur long on the top.

I will try and post a picture later in the week. I am traveling for work so I don't have the camera.

I like her best in the real Havanese look but it is fun having a dog with so many different looks. I am going to put a little book of her most distinct styles together!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

can't wait to see the "book of Nala's looks"!!! 

btw, one of our cats is named Nala!!


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## Pixiesmom (Jul 31, 2008)

She's soo stinking cute!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

thanks... she is the sweetest little thing... shaved muzzle and all! LOL


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

Yes, it will grow back but I know that sick feeling when you get that first look at them - speechless.......lol We have had a poodle come back looking like a conehead and a peke-a-poo cut like a poodle - so wrong! She was even embarrassed when they brought her out!

Although, Tillie still looks like the little doll that she is and no stray hairs in her eyes! Think positively! LOL


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

TilliesMom said:


> Okay, today was THE day. Grooming day.
> 
> I was hesitant for the groomer to take TOO much off... so she didn't take MUCH of at all. EXCEPT for her MUZZLE! grrrrrr... seriously. She SHAVED it. The spot up near her eyes. SHAVED. seriously? I know it will grow and at least it isn't the WHOLE muzzle, but still... last time Tillie was in, her groomer was even talking about how they NEVER shave a Havanese, anywhere... oh ya? sigh AND they didn't clean her EARS. seriously? anywho... she got a scissor cut and a SUPER dooper "poop shoot" ~ I'm sure her behind is chilly! LOL The kids are a little grossed out, cause you can really see everything "down there" ... ummmmmm... anywho, here are a few pictures.... sigh...
> the bottom ones with the bow are the "after" pics, she LOOKS so sad... she was VERY, very tired... sigh...


 I think she looks so cute! I do not know what you are talking about.. I saw a Havanese at pet smart today that had a razer cut so short. I really think tille looks good.:hug:


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## Ninja (Nov 1, 2010)

I personally love the look and think she looks great. She's such a cutie!!


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

*LOOK AT THAT SMILE MOM!*


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## Lizzie'sMom (Oct 13, 2010)

She is cute, but I like the before better. I have been there. Lizzie's muzzle was shaved and is finally now growing. In a week you will like the cut. I actually like the hair cut close to the eyes. Give her a big hug!!!


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## whimsy (Apr 3, 2010)

I actually like it!!! What a sweetie!!


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

sigh.... I am sorry. :hug: At least, you will be able to see her eyes for a really, really long time. lol!

Seriously though, I bet that by next week, it will look better. Jack's head wasn't that great after his last cut but that was because he was being a brat and kept trying to bite the scissors.


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## SOPHIES-MOM (Oct 4, 2010)

I think she looks cute! But I have learned when you go to a new groomer, you have to be really specific, like don't do this and that, basically covering the whole body of parts. What they think looks cute may not be what you want.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

If you like the groomer don't switch, you may be able to work with her. You have to go over every detail and you can leave notes. For some reason most groomers do the face shave between the eye area, I think they feel for comfortable, scissors are harder to use around the face, takes longer too.

I think this being a first time Tillie looks wonderful and her face will fill in quickly. You were very smart in not going for the 1inch it is short!!! I always tell people to look at a tape measure. Most groomers do not have blades over 1.5 inchs, at two inches they have to do a scisssor cut, no cheating. I think in some areas good groomers are harder to find then hair dressers.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

thanks everyone! I actually did leave a list, soooo, no excuse for NOT cleaning her ears! BUT, I didn't specify NOT to shave her muzzle. seriously!? the weird thing is that when she was in for her feet/face/sanitary 6 weeks ago the groomer actually said that she "never" shaves a Hav anywhere that it isn't how they are groomed.... I think maybe they were swamped and Tillie's eyes were crusty and took the easy way out.
I had bad dreams about her grooming all night long... LOL I am a FREAK. 
I know it will grow... my husband has been working since yesterday morning, he hasn't even seen her yet... he didn't want me to get her groomed down soooooo I am sort of dreading him coming home later... LOL
oh and Suzi, the sweet smiling pic you posted of Tillie was taken BEFORE she got groomed... and I agree, it is the sweetest picture of her ever!!! sigh...


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## shimpli (Mar 24, 2010)

I can understand how you feel. I didn't like Ache's first cut at all. I brought pictures and instructions and it was not what I wanted in her face. Now, 3 months later, she has the look I love so everytime I take her to the groomer I take a paper with me where I write really big : DO... DO NOT... and I put everything I want. I am really specific DO NOT TOUCH HER FACE, DO NOT CUT HER BODY HAIR, I want to keep her in full coat. Even with that, the last time they cut her body hair more that just the tips... ughhh I would love to be able to do it myself but it is not easy. Tillie is a beauty, the hair will grow back SLOWLY but surely.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

thanks Theresita!! Ache is SO gorgeous!!!


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## shimpli (Mar 24, 2010)

Aww Thanks.


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## Sewcrazy64 (Apr 21, 2010)

I think Tillie looks really cute in her new cut. I'm sorry you are disappointed. I've been there many times with our dogs over the years. I've found I get the best results if I take pictures of what I want the cut to look like. For example, when I took Jaxon recently for his first cut, I took in two different pictures. One pic had the head cut just like I wanted and the other had the body cut I wanted. I even labeled each picture and left the pics with the groomer. I know that may seem a little anal, but Jaxon's cut turned out exactly like I wanted. Regarding shaving between the eyes, I let our groomer do it with Jaxon and I really like it. It lets me see his beautiful eyes, and the area around his eyes looks and is much cleaner since he has tear stains. I can tell you that "shaved" look does go away quickly. It starts to look natural again in about a week. Hang in there!


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## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

Such a shame for you, but on the up side you may be able to tackle the tear staining more easily.Just put a dab of cornstarch in the corner of the eyes, so that it dries up the tearing, then in a couple of days or so give it a brush out and then do the cornstarch again, so on and so forth for awhile, and then you may well find come the summer[June July]that Tillie has out grown the tearing phase,and by then her pretty fur will have grown back.You can see in all the pics Tillies lovely character shinning through,with or without a full head of hair!


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## LeighaMason (Dec 16, 2010)

The same thing happened with Sugarbaby last week, shaved between the eyes, "baboon butt" and all!


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## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

SHE'S BEAUTIFUL!!!!!!


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

please tell Tillie how cute she looks, her coloring - gorgeous !


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

awwwwww, thanks girls!! :hug:
I feel a little better about her eye shaving, I have to keep repeating, "it will grow out, it WILL grow out..."
and LOL about "balloon butt"!! ha ha ha seriously, she's got like a "moneky butt" now! my son thinks it is "gross"! ha ha ha


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## West End Girl (Feb 18, 2011)

Tillie, I'm very sorry this has happened. I've personally had bad hair cut experiences by entire life (with my head!) you know.....the nightmare kind where you have to leave the hairdressing salon with a paper bag over your head and hail a taxi home? I know exactly how your doggie feels!

So, finding the right dog groomer is a challenge. Luckily, my best friend who is like a sister to me just happens to be a professional groomer and her work is amazing. She LOVES dogs & truly takes her time to ensure they all look beautiful. Only thing is, she lives a couple of hours North of me, but it will be a pleasure (and great excuse and well worth the drive!) to go and see her with Lola......and I know she won't do anything crazy!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

awesome!!! you are blessed with a best friend AND a groomer!!! NICE!!!
Tillie is growing out and looks okay now... if i could only get her tear staining under control!!


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## LeighaMason (Dec 16, 2010)

You might have already tried it but I started Angel Eyes a week ago and I see a difference so far. I mix it with 2 tablespoons of yogurt in the morning, Sugarbaby really likes it.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

thanks! I actually haven't tried it yet, as my husband would really like to not add anything "extra" to her system, BUT I think I am going to try it SOON... as it is my "last resort" ... everyone seems to have good results when giving it to thier pups...


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## tokipoke (Feb 13, 2012)

*I know this thread is old...*

BUT, just thought I'd add my two cents!

I am a dog groomer and yes, we do shave down the muzzle. UNLESS, the owner specifies clearly that this is NOT what they want. Any dog groomer will be happy to oblige because we are here to please. However, we do appreciate that the owner _kindly_ tells us what they want. It also helps that clients don't say general things like "I want a teddy bear head" or "just leave the hair long" or "I want a puppy cut" - this leave it open to LOTS of interpretations. The typical American teddy bear head can be long or really short, and it is always accompanied with the shave down the muzzle. Now, depending on the breed, the top of the muzzle is not shaved as with the yorkie. But some groomers are not familiar with Havanese, or they may think the dog on the table is some sort of shih tzu mix. The hair on the top of the muzzle is always shaved off with the shih tzu's cause they are brachycephalic and the shaving helps them to stay cleaner and able to see. I have a shih tzu I groom whose hair on top of the muzzle grows like a teepee and she cannot see anything (the overgrown bangs don't help either). There is also no such things as a "puppy cut" - just tell your groomer "I want 2 inches taken off" or "I want 2 inches left on." Be very specific with the length. Some groomers define a puppy cut to be one length all over - and this can vary from 1 inch all over, to a complete shave down with a 7 blade (very short), or even with the 7 blade AGAINST THE GRAIN of hair growth, which will be even shorter, and depending on the hair, the dog will look bald! So you can see how instructions can be vague and every groomer will approach things differently.

I had a client tell me over the phone she was bringing in a shih tzu. When she came with the dog, I asked her if her puppy was a full shih tzu cause, guess what, from looking at that dog I could tell she was a Havanese! The client wanted a "puppy cut" with a "round teddy bear head." First off, she didn't even know what kind of dog she had. I left the hair an inch all over, the client wanted the hair shorter cause of matting, but actually the matting wasn't that bad, so I left it longer. The client wanted the hair shorter yet showed me a picture of a shih tzu with at least 2 inches of hair. I did hesitate to shave down the muzzle, but this was the look the client was going for.... even showing me a picture of a shih tzu. The dog looked really cute and polished after. I do prefer the Havanese with the hair on the muzzle because this actually makes the groom last. You don't have to take them in as frequently to get all that trimmed again.

I just wanted to post my input because it's not that groomers are "incompetent" - we may be rushed, yes, but we do try to make every dog looks its best. If you work with your groomer in a kind manner, you will get the results you want.


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## ClaireVoyant (Jan 26, 2012)

tokipoke said:


> I am a dog groomer and yes, we do shave down the muzzle. UNLESS, the owner specifies clearly that this is NOT what they want. Any dog groomer will be happy to oblige because we are here to please .


Welcome Tokipoke 

Quite honestly, and respectfully . . .it just wouldn't have occurred to me to tell a groomer NOT to shave the muzzle. I'm very specific about where I want Isabella trimmed . . .sanitary area and paw pads. If I returned and found something trimmed that's not suppose to be trimmed . . .like the muzzle? On a Havanese??? I'd be more than just a little miffed. REALLY


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## whitzend (Dec 1, 2011)

I just love Tillie no matter what her hair cut comes out to be. She is the sweetest little doll


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Milo will be 5 on the 23rd, so we've had a lot of grooming on him (and Ruby and Bailey) and only twice in all that time did groomers shave his muzzle. None of them ever shaved Rudy or Bailey. It is so much easier to maintained when they do that inverted v cut between the eyes. I've never had to tell any of them, after the first, not to shave them.


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

I also like the before more, but the after isn't terrible either, I've seen much worse. I'm not seeing the shaved muzzle at all, I thought she would have been shaved like a poodle and it's hard to see from pictures, but it does look like she shaved the STOP but thankfully she actually didn't go down the bridge of the nose (at least from what I can tell of the pics). 

I agree, you do have to be very specific especially with a full coated dog. Many groomers aren't used to it as many just do a basic "puppy cut" and don't know what to do when presented with this type of coat. There are also many different things you can do with that, so she may have just "winged it" although she is also responsible for asking questions and making sure she knows exactly what you want before you leave.

I groom a full coated havanese that had a double eye infection and had both entire eye areas AND ALMOST ALL OF THE MUZZLE shaved by the vet, and it looked horrible at first but now after a few months it's grown in a lot and looks almost normal. It's actually posted here somewhere. I was actually more upset than the owner about it! 

I agree with The Laughing Magpie, if you feel the groomer is doing a good job in terms of treating her well then the actual grooming you can work through and eventually get it how you like it. The most important thing is that Tillie is comfortable with the groomer and doesn't end up traumatized by rough handling. When I first started as a groomer my grooming skills weren't nearly what they are now and I sent home a few dogs that didn't looks so great. Thankfully many of my clients saw past that and gave me another chance as they were comfortable with me and trusted me with their pet. Now they are my loyal customers and their dogs look much better!


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## tokipoke (Feb 13, 2012)

ClaireVoyant said:


> Welcome Tokipoke
> 
> Quite honestly, and respectfully . . .it just wouldn't have occurred to me to tell a groomer NOT to shave the muzzle. I'm very specific about where I want Isabella trimmed . . .sanitary area and paw pads. If I returned and found something trimmed that's not suppose to be trimmed . . .like the muzzle? On a Havanese??? I'd be more than just a little miffed. REALLY


Thank you for the welcome 

I do understand clients who will be upset with something the groomer did. I would be horrified if I sent my dog to the groomers to come back looking funny. It's all how the client handles it though. Too many times clients are very condescending or rude to their groomers. I'm trying to emphasize the importance of working _with_ the groomer if he or she does something you don't like. I know there are also many clients who treat their groomers very well!

I want to point out I'm talking about shaving on top of the nose - the bridge. Just in case some people think I'm talking about shaving the whole muzzle - which would be crazy to do on a client's Havanese! 
Unless a groomer is well versed with Havanese, they will shave the bridge of the nose. For showing, I know the Havanese is left as natural as possible. BUT, for pet clips, it's a whole different story. Many groomers see pet clips as being the most practical clips, or low maintenance as possible, so maybe this is why the bridge of the nose is shaved on so many drop coated breeds. I would still always tell any groomer specifically what I want. If you just assume "they know," then that opens up to their interpretation of what a pet clip is and what should be done on the dog. Btw, there is a book many groomers refer to on how to groom different breeds - I looked at Havanese and it doesn't go into detail about the bridge of the nose, it just says "The top of the nose may be left natural or clipped."

I actually LEFT the bridge of the nose unshaved on some dogs, and the clients came back complaining I didn't "groom their dog enough" - so go figure! Everyone wants different things. I also get clients who have very matted dogs who want to keep all the hair, and then clients who have dogs with _beautiful_ coats wanting it all shaved off with a 7F. I always try to convince them to please keep the beautiful coat! For me as a groomer, I prefer longer styles (if the client keeps up with it at home) because this allows me to practice my scissoring skills, and lets me have more room to play with the dog's hair. Doing short shavedowns all the time gets boring 

I have been enjoying seeing all your lovely photos of your Havanese, and they are fabulous! I don't own one (yet), just learning about them and very curious about their grooming requirements. So next time I get a true Havanese owner, I will know what will please them


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

wow, this is a ressurected old thread!! LOL Tillie was just a baby!!
I took over all of Tillie's grooming last March, so no worries, if her groom looks bad, it's MY fault now AND I have definitly learned it grows back FAST! 

you can see how she currently looks in my little avatar pic!


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Wow, great job! Good for you! Tillie looks wonderful and I'm sure she loves being groomed by mommy!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

thanks! I have actually just been letting her grow out, only trimming paw pad hair a little sanitary trim once in awhile... not for beauty sake, but for laziness sake! ha ha ha, it is SO much easier to just let her grow out that to trim her!! 
I trimmed her legs a bit last week and am now kicking myself because her body is still long and fluffy and her little legs look silly! ha ha ha... but I am afraid to 'even' up her body because I have discovered I am a little crazy with the scissors!!  eh. it will grow!


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## ClaireVoyant (Jan 26, 2012)

You're doing a beautiful job, Tammy. I've ordered a pair of CC grooming shears and will attempt to do the paw pads myself, though will take Isabella in for her sanitary trim. I've only taken her in once before . . .and while the trimming was good, it took them four hours . . .and I specifically told them absolutely no cage drying and was told dogs that fidget get the cage dryer . . .and I suspect that's why it took so long. and then, next day when I received a courteousy call to see how she was, they called her by my sister inlaw's dog's name. Aside from that, they didn't even finish off with a bow (even the box store groomers include a bow) LOL. That's what I get for choosing a groomer that advertises 
they're "Christian based" rather than just seek recommendations. Live and learn


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

thanks! awwww, ya, 4 hrs.... I used to do that too, but then I looked at it from her perspective and thought how scared she must be everytime I leave her... I'm a BIG softie... LOL besides, the $$ I am saving doing it all myself is SUCH a great feeling!  besides, then I have an excuse to buy supplies!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ClaireVoyant said:


> You're doing a beautiful job, Tammy. I've ordered a pair of CC grooming shears and will attempt to do the paw pads myself, though will take Isabella in for her sanitary trim. I've only taken her in once before . . .and while the trimming was good, it took them four hours . . .and I specifically told them absolutely no cage drying and was told dogs that fidget get the cage dryer . . .and I suspect that's why it took so long. and then, next day when I received a courteousy call to see how she was, they called her by my sister inlaw's dog's name. Aside from that, they didn't even finish off with a bow (even the box store groomers include a bow) LOL. That's what I get for choosing a groomer that advertises
> they're "Christian based" rather than just seek recommendations. Live and learn


I'm not so big on bows. I had a long haired white cat, and as she got into her teens, she would get matted if not groomed regularly. Since she turned into a she-devil if I approached her with a brush, we started getting her groomed every 6 weeks or so. In the beginning, they would send her home looking gorgeous, but stinking of perfume, and with little pink bows over her ears (which she then held flat, because she hated the feel!) I had to say, "Hey, folks, this is a CAT. She doesn't WANT the mice to smell her coming, and she DEFINITELY isn't big on bows.":biggrin1: They got the message, and from then on, she came home snowy white, all combed out and beautiful, but smelling like a clean cat, not like a cheap perfume factory!ound:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TilliesMom said:


> thanks! awwww, ya, 4 hrs.... I used to do that too, but then I looked at it from her perspective and thought how scared she must be everytime I leave her... I'm a BIG softie... LOL besides, the $$ I am saving doing it all myself is SUCH a great feeling!  besides, then I have an excuse to buy supplies!!


I thank my lucky stars for my groomer. She works at our training center, and is a trainer too, so she's great with the dogs. I stay and hold him the whole time, and we talk over what she's going to do. (well, we did in the beginning, now she's got it down pat) He's not there a minute longer than he has to be, and I only pay $25 for sanitary, foot trim and nails. I bathe him at home, so I don't need her to do that part!


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## ClaireVoyant (Jan 26, 2012)

TilliesMom said:


> thanks! awwww, ya, 4 hrs.... I used to do that too, but then I looked at it from her perspective and thought how scared she must be everytime I leave her... I'm a BIG softie... LOL besides, the $$ I am saving doing it all myself is SUCH a great feeling!  besides, then I have an excuse to buy supplies!!


Precisely . . .no more groomers, even for a sanitary cut . . .unless they focus on one dog at a time. There's not a reason one it should take four hours when I can get her bathed and dried in a half hour or so. I mean, they ARE suppose to be the professionals, after all.


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## ClaireVoyant (Jan 26, 2012)

krandall said:


> I'm not so big on bows. I had a long haired white cat, and as she got into her teens, she would get matted if not groomed regularly. Since she turned into a she-devil if I approached her with a brush, we started getting her groomed every 6 weeks or so. In the beginning, they would send her home looking gorgeous, but stinking of perfume, and with little pink bows over her ears (which she then held flat, because she hated the feel!) I had to say, "Hey, folks, this is a CAT. She doesn't WANT the mice to smell her coming, and she DEFINITELY isn't big on bows.":biggrin1: They got the message, and from then on, she came home snowy white, all combed out and beautiful, but smelling like a clean cat, not like a cheap perfume factory!ound:


LOL, I had a male Persian for several years, and can most definitely relate. I wouldn't have wanted to be within two miles of the groomer's on his bath day ound:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ClaireVoyant said:


> LOL, I had a male Persian for several years, and can most definitely relate. I wouldn't have wanted to be within two miles of the groomer's on his bath day ound:


The funny thing was that the groomers told me that she was the easiest cat they worked on. I guess it was different when MOMMY held the brush!:biggrin1: For that reason, we've made sure that our "new" (now 12 yo!) long haired white cat has been used to periodic brushing since she was a kitten. She doesn't mat, so she really doesn't need it, but I wanted her used to it for IF her coat changes with age.


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