# Refusal with training



## tokipoke (Feb 13, 2012)

I am having problems training my Havanese. Some background info:

I got him when he was 2. Don't know his socialization prior to me. He is wary of strangers. Scared of hands coming over his head, jumpy, and growls at people he doesn't know. He does not like children or puppies. With me, he's happy-go-lucky, and loves when I slap him around and throw him in play. So with me he is not scared of my hands.

I noticed the most peculiar behavior that I've never come across and need help with. I tried to teach him a simple command, "sit." He is very interested in the treat (very food motivated), but as soon as I present it to him with the command "sit" he has his ears back and he slinks away from me. He hides behind the couch and sits in a slumped position. He seems scared. I did use a clicker the first couple of times where he seemed receptive, so maybe he is scared of the clicker noise? I tried to confine the training to the bathroom where he couldn't "run away" but he was very detached, slumped against the wall and avoided eye contact. Then I brought him out to the living room trying the command "sit" by luring over his head, he kept running away from me. I found him next to the couch laying down and when I walked up to him he had his ears back, and he showed his genitals to me. I don't know what is there to be scared of. When I ask him to sit I don't use an authoritative voice but very peppy happy one. I'm the only person he ISN'T scared of so I know it's not me and something else. When I try to ask him to sit with a treat he acts like I'm going to hit him!

When I stop with the training he perks up and follows me around. As soon as I present a treat, he acts distrustful, sniffs carefully and when I say "sit" he runs away. He is used to taking treats from my hands cause I treat him after he potties.

Any advice???


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

Poor baby! I am no expert, but I would try standing with my side to your Hav (non-threatening move) a little distance away, throw lots of treats when he sits. Good boy! (in a happy tone). Do not stand over him with commands, do not reach over his head. Do you think this will work? Just my 2 cents worth.


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## curly_DC (Nov 27, 2011)

I practiced getting Sergio in the sit position without using the word first. Trainer showed me how to hold the treat near his nose and as soon as his bottom hits the ground give him a treat. After consistency with that, he started sitting automatically and waiting for treats instead of begging on hind legs. Maybe don't use the word sit for a while. And move him to another spot if he gets confused.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

curly_DC said:


> I practiced getting Sergio in the sit position without using the word first. Trainer showed me how to hold the treat near his nose and as soon as his bottom hits the ground give him a treat. After consistency with that, he started sitting automatically and waiting for treats instead of begging on hind legs. Maybe don't use the word sit for a while. And move him to another spot if he gets confused.


This is exactly right, Michele, you don't put a verbal cue on a behavior until after you are consistently able to produce the behavior!

Toki, are you sure Louis knows what a clicker is, and what it means? It's really important to "charge" the clicker first, by simply getting his attention, click and treat. Do this in a number of very short sessions (no more than a minute or so) spread over a couple of days, and he should start to associate the clicker with something he enjoys. (food) If he is one of the rare (but it happens) dogs who is sensitive to the noise of the clicker, you can muffle it, by piling tape on the button, or holding the clicker behind your back, against your clothing.

Once he is responding positively to the clicker, you can either try luring him into a sit, the way Michele did with Sergio, or if he finds that aversive, (someone may have been rough on him in training sessions in the past... you just don't know) you can use the "capture" method instead. For this method, you keep your clicker and treats with you at all times. When you see him sit on his own, you click and treat. eventually, he will start to offer sits to you on his own. At that point, you start pairing the behavior with your cue. Most people say the word, "sit", but if he seems to worry about voice cues, you may be better off at least to start, developing a hand signal that you can use instead. For Kodi, I touch my fingers to my shoulder, and he knows to sit. (but you can use any hand signal you want, as long as it is consistent)

I think that once you can train even one or two behaviors successfully, without Louis getting scared, he will start looking forward to working with you. You want "training" to be "play" for the dog!


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## curly_DC (Nov 27, 2011)

Here is a video demo:


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## Atticus (May 17, 2011)

Also as you got him at 2 you don't really know if he has some bad training experience behind him. I definitely agree to not say "sit" but lure him into it while either sitting yourself or next to him so you are not over him. Try to enjoy the process not be worried about the outcome. Interesting response from him ,poor guy! Good luck! keep us posted!


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## Izzy-bella (Mar 26, 2011)

Poor little pup...it does sound like someone in his life past life maybe did mistreat him....so sad. Glad he has such an understanding and patient mom now. All the above suggestions sound good to me. Have nothing more to add but wish you luck, I am sure you can do it. 

Estelle and Izzy


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

curly_DC said:


> Here is a video demo: [snip]


The method shown in the video will work, but may be slower in engaging the pup's understanding than a more refined version would do.

I use methods taught by Bob and Marian Bailey, which would have these differences:

1) the lure would be used only a few times, then faded.

2) The pup would be "taught" the Sit - and the Sit ONLY, for quite a numbre of sessions; it wouldn't be followed by giving a treat for going DOWN afterwards.

You might aim for five to ten times on the Sit to begin with, before ending the session. To end the session, just move around a bit.

Usually two to three sessions are enough for one training period. (In a session, you work on ONE behavior only, and a training period consists of two to three sessions with short breaks between them, which you can use for thinking and planning.)

At the end of a session, I move around, being careful to move away from a dog who is a bit anxious, as Louis - and Camellia - are. I might then invite her to follow me for the next session. You don't need a lot of space; I don't have much in my house!

At the end of a period, I hold up my hands with palms toward Camellia, and my somewhat-opened fingers crossed over each other, and sometimes I add a verbal cue: "All done!" And I put the food and the clicker away.

I always have a little metal box with diced-up Rollover in my shirt pocket - buttoned down! - and a clicker in my pants pocket! That's how I did things, too, with my previous dogs (Australian Terriers).

About anxiety with Louis - it's POSSIBLE all that grooming contributes to it; you might consider that; you'll know far better than I whether it contributes or not.

Whatever you can do to reduce stress for Louis will help with the teaching. I'd be quite sensitive to how much "training" Louis could take in a day, or in a week, without having his stress levels build.

Camellia is generally convinced that if I approach her, I'm going to do something nasty to her. See the resemblance with Louis?

Edit: Karen's post is right on the button!

Sat, 14 Apr 2012 17:09:28 (PDT)


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## tokipoke (Feb 13, 2012)

CarolWCamelo said:


> About anxiety with Louis - it's POSSIBLE all that grooming contributes to it; you might consider that; you'll know far better than I whether it contributes or not.


How would the grooming contribute to his anxiety? I guess cause he was handled more in that way (before he came to me)? I don't see him exhibit fear when it comes to grooming. He isn't even scared to go into the grooming area. I also don't notice the same behavior when grooming compared to when I tried to teach him to sit.

Basically I've come to the conclusion that he hates the clicker, he dislikes the "training mode" I go into, even if I keep it upbeat, and he dislikes the word "sit." Maybe he was hit when someone tried to train him. I cannot use the lure method because he immediately associates this with training and he runs away.

I've tried free shaping today so he has no idea that he is being trained, and I'm letting him think he's training me. So far so good. Before I gave him a bully stick, I sat calmly not making eye contact till he stopped dancing around and jumping and sat on his own. Then I presented him with the bully stick. He took it from my hand confidently. I didn't make any sounds. He kept leaving the bully stick to see what I was doing, so I sat on the floor, waved the bully stick around like a toy, he bounced around, but I did not give it to him till he sat. He took it from my hand just fine. SO I think this is what I need to keep doing for a while, then slowly adding in a cue word that is not "sit." I hope this works!


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## Atticus (May 17, 2011)

LOVE it!!! You need to "read" your dog. It seems like he has clearly had some bad experience. I know dogs who do not respond well to constant training and exasperated "sit" commands but never one who is "afraid" of luring (unless they just don't like food). This will be a challenge but you seem pretty dog savvy so enjoy figuring out the mystery of this little ones brain! Good Luck!


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

tokipoke said:


> How would the grooming contribute to his anxiety? I guess cause he was handled more in that way (before he came to me)? I don't see him exhibit fear when it comes to grooming. He isn't even scared to go into the grooming area. I also don't notice the same behavior when grooming compared to when I tried to teach him to sit.
> 
> Basically I've come to the conclusion that he hates the clicker, he dislikes the "training mode" I go into, even if I keep it upbeat, and he dislikes the word "sit." Maybe he was hit when someone tried to train him. I cannot use the lure method because he immediately associates this with training and he runs away.
> 
> I've tried free shaping today so he has no idea that he is being trained, and I'm letting him think he's training me. So far so good. Before I gave him a bully stick, I sat calmly not making eye contact till he stopped dancing around and jumping and sat on his own. Then I presented him with the bully stick. He took it from my hand confidently. I didn't make any sounds. He kept leaving the bully stick to see what I was doing, so I sat on the floor, waved the bully stick around like a toy, he bounced around, but I did not give it to him till he sat. He took it from my hand just fine. SO I think this is what I need to keep doing for a while, then slowly adding in a cue word that is not "sit." I hope this works!


Toki - you know Louis far, far better than I do! I like your analysis here, and believe it is correct. GREAT JOB! Keep up the good work!

Sat, 14 Apr 2012 19:15:41 (PDT)


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

My sisters Ausie has a bad fear of beeping noises. When Nellie was a pup they bought a enviable fence that made a beep noise maybe it also had a shock? Anyway she really freaks out with certain noises like fire alarms when the battery is going out or the microwave timer. Maybe the clicker reminds him of a bad experience.


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## tokipoke (Feb 13, 2012)

*"Sit" update*

I taught Louis how to sit! I thought it would take weeks of free shaping. I have been giving him things he wanted only when he sat on his own since my last post (that was only two days ago, lol). I got some treats out (dehydrated liver, then dried chicken) and casually passed them out each time he sat. I got brave and assigned a cue word, "sit" in Korean, which is "ahn-ja." He responded really well to the new word, probably because it was new and it sounds softer. He was sitting on command within 5 minutes. He was also very perky, happy, and very interested. At the end of "training" (I made him think it wasn't), we wrestled a bit. He keeps sitting and looking at me with a look "Where's the treats at?"

What a breakthrough!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Yay for you and Louis!!!:whoo:

Even now, if we are working on something new, and Kodi isn't quite "getting" it, his default is to try a "sit" or "down" because those were the first cues he learned. You can almost see the little gears turning... "I can't figure out what she wants, but I know THIS used to make her happy, I'll give it a try!":biggrin1:


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## Atticus (May 17, 2011)

Atticus has as his default "Head Down'' which is head down between his paws. It is too funny he just lies flat like that and cranks his eyes up to me "is this it"????OK to be honest if he doesn't know what to do he often starts barking which really works as I immediately back up to make things easier!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

At agility last night, there was a young girl who has a poodle who is a really good little agility dog. They are a great team, but last night, the girl was having an off night, and a couple of times the girl either lost her way, or didn't show the dog clearly enough where to go. The dog would look straight at her and BARK as she ran. You could almost see her saying, Hey! Get your act together!!!ound:


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