# Hind end weakness



## Tward (Feb 16, 2016)

Hi Everyone,
I'm new to the group and need any info or advice on my 3.5 yr old boy, Parker. He is having problems with his hind end going out on him. Looking back this probably started in Oct/Nov when he could no longer jump up on my bed. He always had very strong back legs and often stood up on them when trying to see what you were doing on the counter or when reaching for the door knob so this was odd. We thought maybe he had just gained a few too many pounds. Then the first part of Dec. I noticed a very subtle limp in his right leg. It only happened for a few steps and never noticed it again. The end of Dec he went in for distemper and bordatella vaccine. Then 10-14 days later I noticed him picking up the right leg again and holding it up. I made an appt thinking it could be luxating patella. The vet checked out his legs and hips and decided it was his back because when he touched his back the skin twitched and Parker turned and looked at him. He's done that pretty much his entire life every so often, I had no idea it was a sign of pain. I thought it was like a shiver or tingle. He prescribed a prednisone taper and said if it didn't get better we'd do X-rays. We did the taper and seemed to do well and by the end of January I thought he was pretty much better. Then last Thursday he couldn't stand up on his hind legs from a sitting position and attempted to pull himself with his front legs. I paged the vet right away, as it was evening. He said to give him some tramadol and bring him in for X-rays the following day. In the meantime I read up on reasons a havanese could have hind end weakness or lameness and up popped hypothyroidism. He had many of the symptoms which were; lethargy, fatigue, weight gain (although I fed him grain free premium dog food and measured appropriately and I didn't think I treated him too much) I would continually find small clumps of his black hair all over the carpet. (He's a black and white) his hair seemed dry, he scratched a lot, he didn't have a problem with cold but he was ALWAYS warm, he's had increasing anxieties over the last year or so. He hasn't had any aggression problems, unless you mess with his feet....he hates that. Looking back he has seemed quite depressed the last 6 months or so. He doesn't cry out or whimper at all when he has the leg weakness issues so I'm not positive he's in pain. He doesn't seem to want you to touch his back though so he may be. By nature he's always been a sweet boy so he may be good at hiding it. I had my fiancé ask the vet to do a thyroid panel and the vet dismissed it saying it's not hypothyroidism. He did X-rays and found 3 discs that seemed narrowed and the last vertebrae in his spine looked to be malformed so he figured that's where the problem is. He suspects the vertebrae could be shifting and pinching the nerves. He decided to put him on tramadol for a week. I followed up with a phone call to him after a few days and told him he had trouble using the back legs three times over the weekend and Monday so he added dexamethasone. I decided to make an appt tomorrow with another vet for a second opinion and I am insisting they do a full thyroid panel to rule it out. I decided to hold off on the dexamethasone so it won't mess up the thyroid test and will start it tomorrow if the second vet thinks it's the right thing to do. So has anyone ever experienced this sort of thing? I'm just sick worrying about what this could be. Any advice or input is welcomed. Thanks from a very worried fur momma, Teresa


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Oh Teresa I am so sorry you and Parker are going through this. I had two wonderful longhaired doxies before getting Sophie (my first Havanese) and the reason I chose Havanese instead of another doxie this time is because of the back issues (IVDD) that are rampant in the breed. 

I have been through disc problems with both of my doxies so I can tell you what I know about that but it sounds like it's not a definite diagnosis yet with Parker.

Did your vet mention Spondylosis? Wondering about the malformed vertebrae if his spine is unstable and trying to fuse itself but that sounds highly doubtful as he should have seen it on the XRay. You probably know that the narrowed spaces (horse heads) between vertebrae are often caused by herniating or ruptured discs, but he would likely be in considerable pain if that were full blown.

It does sound very possible that the malformed vertebrae is irritating nerves as your vet suggested but good for you to research this and be concerned about hypothyroidism! My experience over the years with both vets and human dr's is they don't often think outside the box and we sometimes end up diagnosing on our own! 

You mentioned he is always warm (my Sophie tends to be also) which is more of a hyperthyroid symptom. Hypothyroid dogs usually have cold intolerance. From what you have said, the spine issue seems to be the more likely suspect but stranger things have happened and you are wise to have a thyroid panel done on him. 

The good news is you will soon know what it is and can begin treating it and getting your boy feeling much better again! Please keep us posted on what you find out and give Parker a hug for me.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Hi Theresa, I can't add much to what Dee Dee has said, but wanted to say I hope you can get to the bottom of Parker's problem quickly.

I will say that a number of years ago, Kodi injured himself when he slipped during an agility run. My local vet couldn't figure it out, and just put him on pain meds. I took him to Tufts University, and they couldn't get to the bottom of it either. Then I was referred to the wonderful holistic practice I use now. A couple of Chiro treatments, and Kodi was like a new dog! Even if it turns out that Parker has a problem in his spine I suggest that you also look into alternative treatment, like chiro, acupuncture or low level laser.

We also have an elderly cat who has severe arthritis in her hips and spine. Last winter, She was in such bad shape that she was falling over. Our vet started low level laser on her, and she is now jumping over the puppy gates we have all over the house at the moment!!! We take her for treatments every 8 weeks or so. You can't make boney changes go away (though some can be fixed surgically) but you sure can make them a lot more comfortable... And without having to keep them on drugs.


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## Tward (Feb 16, 2016)

Oh, thank you both so much! Just your support and being able to talk this over with others is so helpful. Unfortunately, we live in an isolated area and don't have access to specialty veterinarians. I will definitely check to see if the ones around here offer some of the things you've mentioned. I will keep you informed of the developments with the second opinion today. Praying for positive news! Now....I have to figure out how to post pics of my babies. 😀


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## Tward (Feb 16, 2016)

DeeDee, 
It's interesting you mentioned your doxies. My current vet kept referring to the long backed breeds having problems with disc disease and including the havanese in that group. I know their backs are a little longer but I never thought they were part of that group. My vet also mentioned that vertebrae possibly shifting around so perhaps he meant spondylosis. He never mentioned it by name though. Thanks again. 
P.s. Your Sophie is adorable!


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## Tward (Feb 16, 2016)

I'm sorry for all these posts, I'm still trying to figure out the format and how it all works. I just wanted to acknowledge Karen's pups, Kodi, Pixel, & Panda. They're beautiful! Gosh I just love the Havanese!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tward said:


> DeeDee,
> It's interesting you mentioned your doxies. My current vet kept referring to the long backed breeds having problems with disc disease and including the havanese in that group. I know their backs are a little longer but I never thought they were part of that group. My vet also mentioned that vertebrae possibly shifting around so perhaps he meant spondylosis. He never mentioned it by name though. Thanks again.
> P.s. Your Sophie is adorable!


Havanese DON'T usually have the back problems that Doxies and Corgis have. You and your pup just got unlucky.

Like my cat. The amount of arthritis she has in her hind end is very unusual. We just got unlucky.


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

I can understand how worried you must be about Parker. I hope they can figure out what is ailing him so he can get the proper treatment and feel better. I did have a Bichon with back issues. Thankfully they were mild enough that strict crate rest and medications got her through it. I also drove her to another town to see a vet that did chiropractic treatments. I must say it did seem to help and I never saw her so relaxed as she was after these treatments. Good luck and healing prayers for Parker!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yeah this needs a second opinion. and it wouldn't hurt to do a thyroid test.


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## Tward (Feb 16, 2016)

I am SO glad we took Parker for a second opinion! This vet was much more thorough with an orthopedic and neurological exam. On his Neuro exam his hind left foot was a little slow to respond so she feels it's a disc causing the problem. Since he had a cortisone shot and a prednisone taper in January she said that giving the dexamethasone taper is not a good idea because the others should still be in his system for 6-8 weeks and the dexamethasone would be an overload at this point. She also said a thyroid panel at this point would not be a good idea because the recent steroids could definitely interfere with the results. She really felt that on examination he did not appear hypothyroid but he needs to lose 6-8 lbs which should be a huge help with his back. I've been feeding him grain free premium dog food and measure his portions so I felt I was doing good. I was however adding a little protein to top off his evening meal and didn't realize the calories it was adding. I feel terrible for doing that to him! I am thankful we can change that though. She also recommended increasing his tramadol dose and frequency because he isn't getting good pain control with a every twelve hour frequency. She also added gabapentin to enhance the tramadol. Lastly, she said he should start feeling better but he has to remain on strict rest for 30 days. No jumping, running, or playing with the other pups. That should give the disc time to heel. I do think we are switching vets, this one is just so much more explanatory and thorough. Thanks for all the support, it helped tremendously! Teresa


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## Laurmann2000 (Sep 12, 2015)

Sounds like the right choice to switch vets. Good luck with Parker and keep us posted on how he does.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

This sounds like a much better vet! I'd switch if I were you too!
That is very encouraging with Parker! So many times I"ve had to crate rest my doxie daughters for weeks at a time (I would cheat though and have them out as long as I could focus totally on them and hold them on my lap) so boring for the dog but crucial to recovery. The hardest part is when they start to feel fine but the disc still needs to heal so they fuss more about being in confinement. Have to stick to your guns though. 

I too have been told Havanese are in the possible IVDD group (nothing compared to doxies I'm sure who are the worst. 80% of our neurologists practice is doxies! Pretty sad statement for the breeding out there, too many bad ones to give the good ones enough to work with). It isn't only the long backs that are the culprit though, their discs age prematurely so the outer shell of the disc (that holds the gel substance inside for cushioning) dries up and gets brittle, making it much more prone to cracking and letting the gel material escape into the spinal canal which irritates and presses on nerves causing excruciating pain and sometimes paralysis. The prime age for it to hit doxies is between 4 and 7 years. (My Jessie got it at a few days after turning 4 and my Hallie at 6). And I did EVERYTHING right and then some, ramp everywhere, absolutley no jumping on or off furniture, stairs, even curbs along sidewalks...kept them very fit and slim, didn't jerk their necks used a harness supplements etc and they still had issues. It has a strong genetic component also it can run more in some lines than others. They estimate 25% of doxies will get IVDD but from what I've seen I think it's much higher than that. 

I'm sure Parker will heal up just fine! The weeks of confinement will go by faster than you think. Did the new vet mention the malformed vertebrae?


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## Tward (Feb 16, 2016)

The new vet did mention the vertebrae and she does not feel that the vertebrae was all that unusual at all. Perhaps a little short but she didn't feel it was something to worry about and certainly not part of this problem. She did say that the only way to know for sure what is going on is to have a cat scan with contrast or an MRI, both of which are not done in our area. The closet is over 200 miles away. If the problem doesn't start to turn around with this line of treatment then that will be our next step, and perhaps surgery if the results of CT scan warrant that.(absolutely only as a last resort) That's another issue I have with that other vet, he immediately started to tell us that surgery on these types of issues are dangerous and expensive, etc. Which I know are all true but he was making it sound like that was not a viable option if it got to that point. This new vet, who happened to have been an emergency med vet previously, said that they do thousands of these types of operations with great success. So, in a nutshell, this new vet gave us hope...the other one did not and I was walking around crying at the drop of a hat for a week which Parker picked up on and I think it made the entire mess worse....

It seems the biggest cause of the disc problems is the weight gain. It was just too much for his back. Secondly, I have some mobility limitations myself so he doesn't get as much exercise as he should. That is going to change once he is feeling better and gets the ok from the doc. His breeder is a very conscientious one that does all the testing required before breeding and she goes above and beyond to breed happy healthy dogs so I'm confident that is not a reason he's having these troubles. Also, he's never had a neck collar only harnesses so that's a plus. Now, the jumping.... He and Grace both love to jump. (what Havanese doesn't, right..) Should I put an end to all jumping from this point on for both of them? Grace is not overweight at all. The other thing is Parker has always been big on standing on his back legs like a person....if we are working at the counter he does it or even if you are sitting on the couch and he is standing next to it...we also have photos of him standing at the back door with his arms stretched up with both paws wrapped around the door knob like he's trying to open the door..! He's just a little hoot, when he's feeling well!
It sounds like your Doxies had ongoing issues once their problems started due to genetics but did they have normal pain free periods in between episodes? That must have been so hard on you too. If only we could take on their pain for them...! Thanks for asking about Parker. Teresa
p.s. I'm looking for a good quality orthopedic bed for him to sleep on that won't make him too warm because he gets warm easily. Any ideas out there? You all are invaluable here! Thank you for everything!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tward said:


> The new vet did mention the vertebrae and she does not feel that the vertebrae was all that unusual at all. Perhaps a little short but she didn't feel it was something to worry about and certainly not part of this problem. She did say that the only way to know for sure what is going on is to have a cat scan with contrast or an MRI, both of which are not done in our area. The closet is over 200 miles away. If the problem doesn't start to turn around with this line of treatment then that will be our next step, and perhaps surgery if the results of CT scan warrant that.(absolutely only as a last resort) That's another issue I have with that other vet, he immediately started to tell us that surgery on these types of issues are dangerous and expensive, etc. Which I know are all true but he was making it sound like that was not a viable option if it got to that point. This new vet, who happened to have been an emergency med vet previously, said that they do thousands of these types of operations with great success. So, in a nutshell, this new vet gave us hope...the other one did not and I was walking around crying at the drop of a hat for a week which Parker picked up on and I think it made the entire mess worse....
> 
> It seems the biggest cause of the disc problems is the weight gain. It was just too much for his back. Secondly, I have some mobility limitations myself so he doesn't get as much exercise as he should. That is going to change once he is feeling better and gets the ok from the doc. His breeder is a very conscientious one that does all the testing required before breeding and she goes above and beyond to breed happy healthy dogs so I'm confident that is not a reason he's having these troubles. Also, he's never had a neck collar only harnesses so that's a plus. Now, the jumping.... He and Grace both love to jump. (what Havanese doesn't, right..) Should I put an end to all jumping from this point on for both of them? Grace is not overweight at all. The other thing is Parker has always been big on standing on his back legs like a person....if we are working at the counter he does it or even if you are sitting on the couch and he is standing next to it...we also have photos of him standing at the back door with his arms stretched up with both paws wrapped around the door knob like he's trying to open the door..! He's just a little hoot, when he's feeling well!
> It sounds like your Doxies had ongoing issues once their problems started due to genetics but did they have normal pain free periods in between episodes? That must have been so hard on you too. If only we could take on their pain for them...! Thanks for asking about Parker. Teresa
> p.s. I'm looking for a good quality orthopedic bed for him to sleep on that won't make him too warm because he gets warm easily. Any ideas out there? You all are invaluable here! Thank you for everything!


Certainly there is NO reason for a healthy, sound Havanese not to jump appropriately sized obstacles. Lots and LOTS of Havanese are successful agility dogs. There's one I know in Canada, who has come in 3rd in their national championships, who is still happily running agility at 13 years of age! In AKC agility, dogs over 11" jump 12", dogs under 11" jump 8", so MOST Havanese jump 8") But many Havanese will happily launch themselves over much larger things, and while it's hard to stop ALL of that, it shouldn't be encouraged.

With a dog with disk problems, you REALLY have to go with what your vet recommends. I have no idea whether they can go back to jumping after they have fully recovered or not.

I would really is a HUGE amount overweight for most Havanese... it's about half again what most Havanese weigh. Kodi is at the VERY top of the (allowed) size range at 11 1/2" and he weighs 17 lbs. (and is very fir and trim... you can easily feel his ribs) an "average" size male Havanese is probably 12-13 lbs.

Once he is over the acute phase of his disk problem and you've got the weight off, you might want to talk to your vet about having him exercises on a FitPawz ball or donut. (you can get them at Amazon) these are excellent for building core strength, and you don't need to go anywhere to have them exercise. (it would be good for your girl too... all of mine exercise on Fitpawz equipment a few times per week. They love it! )

As far as a "orthopedic" bed is concerned, Even an overweight Hav isn't THAT heavy that they need true orthopedic support, like, for instance, a Great Dane would. I buy memory foam bath mats at BB&B (or I'm sure Amazon has these too!) and my dogs find these very comfy and cushiony in their crates.... and they aren't expensive!


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Yes in between the disc flare ups my doxies would pretty much be pain free and normal. Sometimes though they would seem "off" and I knew something was brewing in there and would avoid walks etc until they acted normal again. 

For the jumping, if it is IVDD, they most likely will be prone to getting it again. BUT you can do a lot to help that, Karen brought up an excellent point I forgot to mention, the exercise balls etc are wonderful. I have 2 kinds for Sophie and work with her at home with them. I have a friend with a puppy mill doxie with horrible neck issues, she'd have really bad pain every couple of months or so. She started fitpaws with her and now it's been a year ago last November that she's had any issue at all! That is huge after all of the episodes she was having sometimes almost back to back. 

I try not to let Sophie jump on furniture anyway, because I was a doxie mom for so many years, those precautions are ingrained in me. I have a futon that lays at the foot of the sofa and I have foam pads around the bed for Sophie to land on. I already have ramps on stairs outside and windows put in at ground level for them to look out of from my last girl Hallie (doxie). Hallie also would get acupuncture and chiropractic adjustments. (the vet we go to for that is 2 hours away also we would go about once a week and actually that drive often turns into more of a 7 plus hour total trip on the road due to traffic!). 

Sophie also stands on her back legs a lot and I worry about it also. I am just not sure how much stronger they are than doxies so can't help but worry when she does anything that isn't "four on the floor". And she does that a lot  That I'm not real sure how much to worry with Havanese, definitely not a good thing for doxies.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dee Dee said:


> I try not to let Sophie jump on furniture anyway, because I was a doxie mom for so many years, those precautions are ingrained in me. I have a futon that lays at the foot of the sofa and I have foam pads around the bed for Sophie to land on. I already have ramps on stairs outside


Ha! When Kodi hurt himself (and that wasn't a back injury, he pulled muscles in his groin area) I got him stairs to get on and off the bed, because it's high. (MUCH higher than our couches!!!) Total fail. I spent a long time teaching him where the stairs were, and that he was to use that area to get up and down off the bed. All I managed to do was get him to jump OVER the steps in both directions! It just took athletic prowess on the up part, but watching him leap OVER the steps to get down made me cringe. So the steps went away. 



Dee Dee said:


> Sophie also stands on her back legs a lot and I worry about it also. I am just not sure how much stronger they are than doxies so can't help but worry when she does anything that isn't "four on the floor". And she does that a lot  That I'm not real sure how much to worry with Havanese, definitely not a good thing for doxies.


I know you had a hard time with your Doxies, but Havanese REALLY are not ANYWHERE near as prone to back problems as Doxies or Corgis. They aren't even in the group of dogs who get "standard" jump height modifications from AKC. They just don't need it. Obviously, with any dog, if you want them to be fit and sound for as long as possible, you need to keep them at a trim weight and strengthen those core muscles. But even that is mostly sports related. Most Havanese, even the "couch potatoes", live happy and healthy lives into their mid-teens, with a surprising number making it to 17 or 18.

You can just search the archives here, or participate in the FB HF or our "Havanese Star" FB group for Havanese in sports to see that this subject almost never comes up, because it's just not a common issue. Luxating Patellas certainly can be, but not a lot of back problems.

And as far as the hind leg dancing is concerned, my vet said not to encourage LOTS of it, but that it's not a problem if a (healthy) Havanese offers it.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Ahhhh thank you Karen hearing that has made my day. I hoped that was the case and it sounded like it was from my research on Havanese but to hear it from someone living it is great. I have had to worry about poor doxie backs for so many years (and great dane....everything health wise) it's wonderful (but still knee jerk reaction) to not have to be so concerned about it with Sophie. 

I have to get back to working her core too. 

I'm so glad that Kodi healed up well from the groin pull that had to be painful! I totally agree about the steps to the bed I cringe whenever I see doxie people using them some doxies are reliable with them but many do leap off the sides and it would take just once like that to possibly paralyze them. What a thing to have to be constantly worried about. So sad for the doxies lots of suffering at the hands of bad breeding.


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