# Re-training & new crate question



## GRB (Mar 22, 2021)

Hi,
Finn is 3 yrs old and has been crate trained since he was 12 weeks old. He went to the groomer's 7 weeks ago and has not successfully slept in his crate without barking for hours on end since that appointment. After day 47 we left him out of the crate at night. No problems for these last 4 nights, however, we will be using another home in the future and want him to be able to go in the crate. The vet found a small scab, which I wondered about as well. My thought is he was hurt at the groomer's. Therefore, the metal crate is traumatic to him. I have spent time trying to retrain with treats, however, due to Covid I don't have a lot of time that I can let him bark due to everyone working from home and needing quiet. He will at times lay in the crate with the big dog bed now that he isn't locked in it.
Does anyone have a soft side crate they love? I don't think he is a chewer really, yet I don't want to invest $50 in something easily destroyed. Thanks!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

that is tough, I am sorry for both of you. Are you hoping he’ll be comfortable with the crate for travel or for other reasons while you’re there?
I’d be careful about pushing him too hard. if he’s willing to go in on his own with the door open, that’s great! 47 days is a lot of reinforcement of his anxiety, even though it was completely unintentional. I’d go very, very slow, giving those treats and not even trying to close the door yet. If visiting another home is an issue you’ll need to address soon, it might be worthwhile to seek out a behaviorist.

One thing to give you hope is that it may be situational. Has he been crated under different circumstances since it started? We were unsure if our puppy’s anxiety was related to his crate or being alone, and for a few other reasons we decided not to continue crate training for potty training. Even though he’s not crated at home, he is completely fine in a crate for quiet time at daycare, and at night when he is boarded. When this came up with a trainer, she said that there was really no need to continue crate training as long as he was able to tolerate a crate when necessary. She works with rescues and mentioned that anxiety with regard to barriers can be situational. It may have started because he was fearful and wanted to be near you, and it’s possible it’s not a fear that’s been generalized to all crates or enclosures. If your Havanese has been in a crate in the other home before (unsure of the situation, if it’s a new home or a vacation home or something) it’s possible he’ll be completely fine in the crate there since the environment in general is different. Another possibility is carefully introducing a new crate when you take him there. Anyway, it’s an important thing to address, and focusing on helping him feel secure regardless of the crate is a good place to start. Every day he feel secure in the crate, even with the door open, is an accomplishment!

I like my soft carrier, but I’m not sure it would be comfortable as a replacement for a crate. If it’s mostly for bedtime, i’d probably look into alternative ways of containing him, such as an expen or indoor “cave.” I saw a cute one a while ago that was like a tiny house with a roof that looked like skylights but were really ventilation. Unnecessary but adorable


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

Maybe try to use a spray like Adaptil Calm to retrain? Or cover the crate with a towel if the wire crate is the problem?
I think the spray helped my guy when he suddenly after 3 years was refusing to enter the crate when I was going out. It was strange because he willingly would go in during the day/night for sleeping. But if he knew I was leaving, he'd shake and shiver. It took a couple of days, now he is running in for his "snack" again.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> One thing to give you hope is that it may be situational. Has he been crated under different circumstances since it started?


This is a really good point. You can certainly continue work on retraining to his crate, and I would definitely so it using the methods outlined by EvaElizabeth and perhaps try the Daptil suggested by Tere. However, let me tall you about Panda. 

We don't know why, but a couple of years ago, after sleeping contentedly in her crate every night since we got her, Panda decided she was having none of it anymore. We have NO IDEA what caused this. We tried for quite a while to change her mind, wait her out, covered her crate, moved her to another room, nothing. We finally caved and let her sleep in the bed with us. She is absolutely perfectly behaved in bed, no problem at all, never bothers us. So we gave up and that became the status quo. At home. We were wondering how things would go in our travel trailer, that only has a queen size bed, so is "cozy" with dogs added. In the travel trailer, she goes willingly not her crate and sleeps there with no complaint! She has done the same when we stayed at a rental cottage. Andshe is ALWAYS fine in her crate when we are at a trial or training facility. So as EvaElizabeth wrote, it MAY be situational, and if it doesn't BOTHER you that he's not crated at home at night, it may not affect his willingness to be in a crate in other circumstances.

Let me also say that I would never put a dog who wasn't COMPLETELY settled and content in a soft sided crate. It is too easy for them to rip their way out. And once they learn that, you will NEVER be able to use a soft sided crate again. All my adult dogs use soft sided crates at trials and on vacations where we have to transport the crates, (their wire crates are hard strapped down in the RV and do not move) but they never got a soft sided crate until I was SURE they were happy and content staying in a crate and wouldn't mess with it.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Patti decided she didn't like sleeping in her crate. It was easier to give in and for a while she slept in our bed, but now mostly she loves sleeping under the clothes hanging in our closet. I think it's cooler there. Sometimes - Around 3:30 a.m. she ends up in our bed for a little while then she's back to her own closet bedroom.

Good Luck!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Panda sleeps flat on her back, (now bulging) tummy up in the air, RIGHT in the middle between our feet Most of the night. Sometimes I’ll half wake up and find that she is nestled against me on top of my body pillow... which I love. I LOVE snuggling with her.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

My Mia absolutely loves her crate. However, several years ago we had a bad storm here while we were away. My neighbor said she saw lightning hit very close to our house and there was a huge BOOM. Many of our appliances went out so it was close. The dogs were in their crates when it happened. Since that day, whenever it storms, Mia wants out of her crate. Otherwise, she is fine in the crate. I assume she was traumatized and associates her crate with storms. However, she loves her crate any other time so I am happy about that. Note also she could care less about storms before this occurred. She has become better about this lately and will only want out if it is storming really bad.

In this case I wonder if retraining the dog to love its crate would help. For example, playing games where the dog goes into the crate and gets a treat so the crate becomes associated with something positive.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I like my soft carrier, but I’m not sure it would be comfortable as a replacement for a crate. If it’s mostly for bedtime, i’d probably look into alternative ways of containing him, such as an expen or indoor “cave.” I saw a cute one a while ago that was like a tiny house with a roof that looked like skylights but were really ventilation. Unnecessary but adorable


This is a good example of situational - and also about different crates having different reactions. Perry hates his sherpa bag - he'll go in it, but I usually have to push him down lightly to be able to zip it up - however, he doesn't hate his airplane travel bag (both are the same dimensions when the airline bag has the sides closed up) - I pop him in, he lies right down and I zip him up and off we go (which is good because I end up having to take him out a few times on the trip to go through airline security, etc.) I assume that he associates the sherpa bag with riding in the car and getting sick and the airline travel bag with travel but he generally hasn't been sick in that one. 



krandall said:


> Let me also say that I would never put a dog who wasn't COMPLETELY settled and content in a soft sided crate. It is too easy for them to rip their way out. And once they learn that, you will NEVER be able to use a soft sided crate again. All my adult dogs use soft sided crates at trials and on vacations where we have to transport the crates, (their wire crates are hard strapped down in the RV and do not move) but they never got a soft sided crate until I was SURE they were happy and content staying in a crate and wouldn't mess with it.


I _hope_ you're wrong about this - because Perry did tear his way out of a soft side crate... we rebuilt it and have used it many times since with no problems though we haven't left him in it for long periods. I do try to use his hard-side crate as much as possible, but sometimes whne traveling means leaving him in the soft one when we're in a hotel. Hopefully the "I can tear through it" was so long ago that he's realized he can't do it with the rebuilt one .


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> I _hope_ you're wrong about this - because Perry did tear his way out of a soft side crate... we rebuilt it and have used it many times since with no problems though we haven't left him in it for long periods. I do try to use his hard-side crate as much as possible, but sometimes whne traveling means leaving him in the soft one when we're in a hotel. Hopefully the "I can tear through it" was so long ago that he's realized he can't do it with the rebuilt one .


Well, there is an exception to every rule, of course, but dogs have good memories, and MANY dogs will keep trying it again and again. So it's always better not to even try a soft sided crate until you are pretty sure they WON'T challenge it, and then be close by to intervene if they make ANY attempt. But if he's been in it a number of time since without hurting it, you're probably fine... He may have just had a real REASON to want to get out then, and be more settled and comfortable in it now.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> Well, there is an exception to every rule, of course, but dogs have good memories, and MANY dogs will keep trying it again and again. So it's always better not to even try a soft sided crate until you are pretty sure they WON'T challenge it, and then be close by to intervene if they make ANY attempt. But if he's been in it a number of time since without hurting it, you're probably fine... He may have just had a real REASON to want to get out then, and be more settled and comfortable in it now.


He hasn't been in it for long enough and alone for me to be confident that he won't try to get through it again (especially now that he seems to have regressed in his ability to be in the crate with no one around and not make a ton of noise) - and I totally agree - I just wish I had thought about that before I put him in it the first time . Of course, on the flip side, he's much more confident now that he was then, so will see.

The biggest problem I have with Perry and the crate is that he's perfect if anyone is anywhere in earshot and basically stops as soon as he thinks you're around - so I rarely experience him misbehaving - and so can't deal with it as I'd like. Though as I said, he's gotten worse, so now if I leave him in his crate and leave the room / go downstairs after a few minutes he will start acting up again, so will see if I can deal with it


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> The biggest problem I have with Perry and the crate is that he's perfect if anyone is anywhere in earshot and basically stops as soon as he thinks you're around - so I rarely experience him misbehaving - and so can't deal with it as I'd like. Though as I said, he's gotten worse, so now if I leave him in his crate and leave the room / go downstairs after a few minutes he will start acting up again, so will see if I can deal with it


If I were really concerned about it, I'd get one of those video baby monitors so I could watch the dog in the crate from out of view. I suspect it would be make a BIG impression on the dog if they heard a sharp "CUT THAT OUT!!!" If they started messing with the crate when they thought no one was watching! 😄


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> If I were really concerned about it, I'd get one of those video baby monitors so I could watch the dog in the crate from out of view. I suspect it would be make a BIG impression on the dog if they heard a sharp "CUT THAT OUT!!!" If they started messing with the crate when they thought no one was watching! 😄


That's exactly what I've been planning to do! Get a video monitor with two way audio so that I could tell him to stop (which he does when I tell him otherwise) even if I'm not in the next room  

My biggest concern with it is that I never know where we will be next and for hotel rooms - no one wants a dog barking in the next room!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

If you think it might be temporary, there are lots of apps that do it, too. The monitors are great for long term, especially for work or something, but if it’s just to get an idea of where a puppy or dog is at, the apps work pretty well. We used an old phone connected to wifi, set up a laptop, and used an ipad, depending on where we were leaving him and how we needed to prop up the device.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> If you think it might be temporary, there are lots of apps that do it, too. The monitors are great for long term, especially for work or something, but if it’s just to get an idea of where a puppy or dog is at, the apps work pretty well. We used an old phone connected to wifi, set up a laptop, and used an ipad, depending on where we were leaving him and how we needed to prop up the device.


The monitor I got for the puppies is basically a camera that works with an app on your phone. So you can monitor the "baby" (ehem.. read "puppies"  ) from anywhere... home or out of the house. The nice thing is that you can change the angle of the camera. This probably wouldn't be necessary when it is pointed at a baby's crib, but I think will be useful when it is pointed at the play area I will eventually have set up for the litter, which will be at least 2 ex-pens linked together. I haven't "test driven" it yet, but it was the highest rated of the less expensive baby monitors. And the things that people didn't like were things like you couldn't use multiple devices to monitor it (fine) you couldn't use multiple camera (fine) and some other "high end" features that I felt I could do without. The higher rated models were hundreds of dollars more.

Here's the one I bought if you want to look into it before I can try mine out and report on it!  : https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D87N9JT/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

krandall said:


> The monitor I got for the puppies is basically a camera that works with an app on your phone. So you can monitor the "baby" (ehem.. read "puppies"  ) from anywhere... home or out of the house. The nice thing is that you can change the angle of the camera. This probably wouldn't be necessary when it is pointed at a baby's crib, but I think will be useful when it is pointed at the play area I will eventually have set up for the litter, which will be at least 2 ex-pens linked together. I haven't "test driven" it yet, but it was the highest rated of the less expensive baby monitors. And the things that people didn't like were things like you couldn't use multiple devices to monitor it (fine) you couldn't use multiple camera (fine) and some other "high end" features that I felt I could do without. The higher rated models were hundreds of dollars more.
> 
> Here's the one I bought if you want to look into it before I can try mine out and report on it!  : https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D87N9JT/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


I bet it will be really useful for you! I think they can be helpful in lots of situations, like work, or addressing separation anxiety, or checking in on a litter of puppies! But if someone is wondering how their puppy is doing on their own, they don’t necessarily have to spend a lot of money to check on them once or twice. The nice thing is there are so many options now, too. Baby monitors with video are affordable now, and a lot of people have security systems that are compatible with cameras that would work well for monitoring pets.

I’m especially intrigued that potentially we could see video from a puppy cam! Great family home video potential!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

You just have to be pretty careful with this technology, because a lot of them can be hacked from people outside your home. So choose carefully! In our case, when the puppies move from their newborn nursery, which will be in the bedroom next to ours, to the larger space down stairs, Our bedroom will be too far away for me to be able to hear what is going on during the night. I suppose I could have gotten by with an audio monitor only, but I decided that being able to see them was a lot more fun!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

krandall said:


> You just have to be pretty careful with this technology, because a lot of them can be hacked from people outside your home. So choose carefully! In our case, when the puppies move from their newborn nursery, which will be in the bedroom next to ours, to the larger space down stairs, Our bedroom will be too far away for me to be able to hear what is going on during the night. I suppose I could have gotten by with an audio monitor only, but I decided that being able to see them was a lot more fun!


Yes, it’s hard to stay up on all of the potential security risks! But generally protecting the router, keeping devices updated, and using complex passwords, are more important than any one decision about a device. It is very difficult to hack a streaming camera feed, and rarely a financial benefit to hacking a private person’s camera. In order for someone to do it, they have to be right in front of the house, and it’s the actual connection between the device and the WiFi that is vulnerable and should be protected. The most common way someone’s privacy is compromised is when they choose to share their information with an app or website!

DH works in IT and we have never really been interested in smart home. But there have been multiple break-ins in our neighborhood over the past year while the families were asleep in the house. I have come to believe we’ve reached a point where the outside danger is bigger than the “inside” danger of online vulnerability. It’s a lot of work, learning to be vigilant about it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> DH works in IT and we have never really been interested in smart home. But there have been multiple break-ins in our neighborhood over the past year while the families were asleep in the house. I have come to believe we’ve reached a point where the outside danger is bigger than the “inside” danger of online vulnerability. It’s a lot of work, learning to be vigilant about it.


Yes, I agree.I just thought it was worth pointing out, especially since some of the apps (it is tge apps that come with the cameras, of course, not the hardware itself that are the problem) are more secure than others for those who are not tech savvy. Many people are not. Since you can’t get onto our network even from our driveway, even if you HAVE the password, and we need boosters within the house to be able to use the internet in all areas of the house, the chance of someone being able to hack into our system from a neighbor’s house is very remote. They just aren’t close enough. But we don’t live in a typical neighborhood. We live on a farm. We only have two houses that are “sort of” close to us... And we can’t see their networks from our house so I suspect the reverse is also true.


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