# We need a trainer



## Mama Mills (Jul 5, 2020)

Hello all, it’s been awhile, too long. I’ve been meaning to post an update for months. Ernie is doing well in general and I’ll give him a shoutout for being the cuddliest guy ever. However… despite our all of our efforts and research he’s recently had a couple of incidents involving resource guarding that got more serious. Today we were out on the patio eating popcorn, he was tethered and couldn’t get to any of the food however my husband came out and reached towards a bowl and Ernie jumped up and bit his hand quite hard, definitely did some damage. That’s the first time he has come at somebody rather than someone coming after him for something (which we’ve learned not to do/prevent almost entirely). Overall he’s made huge strides and will give up nearly anything to me. But it’s very frightening knowing he’s willing to do that. At this point he’s not allowed in same room or area as anyone with food. Clearly we need some help. I’m wondering what the best route for this kind of training is. Our breeder suggested a specific trainer Canine Frontier which is online, she says that breeder knows her havanese and has been working with them for 6 years. I’ve briefly looked at other options and thought someone local who would come to our house like www.gooddogbehavior.org would be a better option. Any advice would be appreciated, we are struggling and need something effective. I’m starting to feel like having him in the house with our small kids isn’t safe and it’s heartbreaking.


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## Mama Mills (Jul 5, 2020)

Here’s the offender. He’s nearly 18 months now, still has plenty of learning to do.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I am sorry that you are dealing with this.  I agree that in your shoes, I would try to find someone local, who can work with you in the home, and have eyes on the situation.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

I am very sorry to hear about this problem. I really hope you can find someone to help. One thing I was wondering. It sounds like Ernie is guarding YOUR food. Is that correct? Do you guys share your food with him so that he maybe thinks it is his somehow? If so, I was wondering if stopping this might help.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

If you run into local waiting lists maybe going the online route would be a good place to start until you can get someone one on one. Dave once shared a resource for behaviorists that use based approach but he told me the list doesn’t always stay up to date. However someone on the list in your area might be able to provide other locals referrals if they have a long waiting list. I’ll see if I can find it.


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## Mama Mills (Jul 5, 2020)

mudpuppymama said:


> I am very sorry to hear about this problem. I really hope you can find someone to help. One thing I was wondering. It sounds like Ernie is guarding YOUR food. Is that correct? Do you guys share your food with him so that he maybe thinks it is his somehow? If so, I was wondering if stopping this might help.


He doesn’t get much of our food but we do use it occasionally to lure him outside or into his pen. The kids have definitely offered him some of their food when they are eating snacks. We are tightening it all up and not having him around anyone who is eating (a challenge because the kids are eating frequently) so hopefully that will help. I’m waiting to hear back from a couple trainers. Trying to be hopeful that we can get past this. DH is traumatized after being bit and is less hopeful which is really hard.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Mama Mills said:


> He doesn’t get much of our food but we do use it occasionally to lure him outside or into his pen. The kids have definitely offered him some of their food when they are eating snacks. We are tightening it all up and not having him around anyone who is eating (a challenge because the kids are eating frequently) so hopefully that will help. I’m waiting to hear back from a couple trainers. Trying to be hopeful that we can get past this. DH is traumatized after being bit and is less hopeful which is really hard.


So sorry this is happening to you. I wish you the very best with your training efforts!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I looked through the last 500 of Dave’s posts and it doesn’t load anymore, as well as PM’s from when he gave me referrals, and couldn’t find the resource I remember him sharing about finding a trainer/behaviorist. If I remember correctly, he often gave trainer and behaviorist referrals to members because he had access to a more up to date database, but there is also a public database of members who use positive, “least restrictive” methods? Does this sound familiar to anyone?

He recommended articles and a book by Jean Donaldson several times in reference to resource guarding, but the links to both articles he shared seem to now be broken. I did find this more recent article by her

Resource Guarding in Puppies

The first time we had another dog in our home we just brought her right in without thinking and Sundance wasn’t a huge fan - and he loves other dogs! I found a cascade of really good information starting with one article Dave shared, but they were more relevant to guarding with two dogs. I know you are past the point of reading and need to move forward with intervention, but do think reading about it might help your husband feel more optimistic about working through it? Reading about it really helped me, although no one was bitten. With Sundance it was different because we created the situation and he doesn’t have an ongoing, every day problem with guarding. But it did scare me to see him territorial because it was out of character, and reading from behaviorists and experts helped me understand it better, and I realized a couple of things I could easily do differently to avoid setting him up. It seems common for guarding to be presented as hopeless, but that doesn’t seem to be the opinion of most of the experts and behaviorists helping to treat it. A lot of people do learn to manage it and work through it when they have the resources to get help.

I’m really disorganized about bookmarks but I did find one more I saved.

Resource Guarding Patricia McConnell


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## Mama Mills (Jul 5, 2020)

We had an assessment done by a trainer to try and help Ernie get past his aggression issues. His aggression has been escalating and he has actually been biting. We've consistently done counter conditioning and modified our home to keep everyone safe and happy and we are still having incidents. After our assessment the trainer said that based on his history she believes it isn't safe to keep Ernie in our home with our kids. He's not been aggressive towards them (he adores my daughter) but she said she believes there is a high level of risk that at some point he will be. It's been VERY emotional for our family to deal with the aggression and the reality that he may not be able to stay in our home. We've made a lot of progress managing the resource guarding however the aggression seems to be evolving and is unpredictable. He has started initiating attacks whereas he used to only show aggression when someone would come towards him for something. The trainer said we have one last option if we want to try and keep him with us and that is to try medication. She recommended a veterinarian behaviorist, I called them this morning and I'm waiting to hear back. I'm not sure what to do at this point, it's been such an emotional rollercoaster. I don't know if trying medication is a good idea or not. I'm heartbroken.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

So sorry to hear about your struggles with Ernie. I know someone who had two dogs from the same breeder. They shared the same father. One of them turned out to be very aggressive and the other was the complete opposite. They were from the same breeder, gene pool and raised the same. They were heartbroken also.


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

I am very sorry about all that you are going through with Ernie and I wish you peace with whatever decision you make regarding how you are going to proceed with him.


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## Mama Mills (Jul 5, 2020)

Thank you for the support. It’s such a difficult thing because most of the time he’s so sweet and good.


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## BoosDad (Mar 8, 2020)

Hope you are able to find a workable solution for Ernie's issues. Remember, sometimes, you need a second or third opinion before you find a good answer. I wish you well.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

I was wondering if all medical conditions have been ruled out. For example, could he be in pain from a dental abscess or could he have hip dysplasia? Hypothyroidism can also cause aggression but would be rare in such a young dog.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I feel very bad for you, and I know that you care for Ernie very much and are not making these decisions lightly. Medication can certainly help with some emotional/training issues, especially if they are fear/anxiety based. It is certainly worth talking to the vet both to rule out any possible medical problems AND to consider medications to help with behavior management. If not were to turn out that some medical problem were causing behavior changes, that is something you, of course would want to address before making any long-term decisions. However, I'd be concerned about medications being able to keep your children safe. And as much as I ADORE my dogs, keeping the HUMANS in the house safe, especially children, IMO has to take top priority.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I don’t see how trying medication could hurt if you’re at the end of your options. Worst case it doesn’t help, but if there’s any chance it makes a difference, even if it’s not enough, at least you’ll know. I’m sorry you’re going through this, I can’t even imagine how difficult it must be. Did you mention were in contact with the breeder at some point, and are you still?


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

We definitely feel for you and understand the agony of this decision - but safety of the family is most important - I am sure there are others with different circumstances who might be able to deal with his unpredictability (if the meds/ current efforts don't work). In the meantime, as much as you might not like it, I would consider keeping a muzzle on him to be safe (they can drink through a muzzle). 

If you do need to consider rehoming him, you might want to contact the Havanese rescue - they are very reputable and can hopefully help with this type of situation.


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## Mama Mills (Jul 5, 2020)

I’ve had a couple of phone calls with breeder and she’s helped me a lot with making peace with the situation. She made it very clear that we cannot have a biter in our home with our kids and I know she’s right. She’s involved with the havanese rescue and has already lined up a place for him to go in Durango, CO with a longtime friend of hers who is going to have him fully evaluated and rehabilitated before he’s placed in a new home. She assured me that they have the best resources available and he will have a happy life in a new home. I feel better knowing this is an option for him. She left it up to me to decide when the transfer will happen. It feels surreal to be a this point but I do believe getting him into a different home is in everyone’s best interest. I’m very grateful there is a network of people on standby ready to help him more than we can. She wants to get another puppy in our home this summer however I don’t know that we will take her up on it after going through all of this.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mama Mills said:


> I’ve had a couple of phone calls with breeder and she’s helped me a lot with making peace with the situation. She made it very clear that we cannot have a biter in our home with our kids and I know she’s right. She’s involved with the havanese rescue and has already lined up a place for him to go in Durango, CO with a longtime friend of hers who is going to have him fully evaluated and rehabilitated before he’s placed in a new home. She assured me that they have the best resources available and he will have a happy life in a new home. I feel better knowing this is an option for him. She left it up to me to decide when the transfer will happen. It feels surreal to be a this point but I do believe getting him into a different home is in everyone’s best interest. I’m very grateful there is a network of people on standby ready to help him more than we can. She wants to get another puppy in our home this summer however I don’t know that we will take her up on it after going through all of this.


I feel so bad for you, but I am so glad to hear that your breeder is acting so responsibly, both for you AND for Ernie. THIS is what responsible breeders do!!! ❤

I also totally understand the pain you and your entire family is feeling. But this IS an anomaly. Even among Havanese that have “anxiety issues” (and I’m not at all sure that is what has been going on with Ernie) Havanese that become biters are exceptional in the extreme. (Not talking about puppy nipping here, but true biting) Take your time and heal your wounds. But don’t completely close the door to the idea of another Havanese in your life. And if you are worried about the idea of the “unknowns” with another puppy, consider talking to your breeder about the possibility of letting you have one of her retired breeders, where the disposition is a known quantity, when she has one available


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I completely understand the hesitance, and I agree this is unusual. I remember when you joined the forum and were deciding about a puppy and I feel sort of compelled to tell you I don’t think you made a mistake. I’m sure you are second guessing, but I just do not believe this is your failure, or that you weren’t ready, or anything like that. You have always seemed like a Havanese family to me, and if that is still something you hope for, don’t give up on it based on this experience. I know you love Ernie and this is hard, and you need time to heal. Maybe something to consider when you’re ready is asking your breeder to help you network to find a retiring adult Havanese being placed by a breeder, since she’s involved in the Havanese community.


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## Mama Mills (Jul 5, 2020)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I completely understand the hesitance, and I agree this is unusual. I remember when you joined the forum and were deciding about a puppy and I feel sort of compelled to tell you I don’t think you made a mistake. I’m sure you are second guessing, but I just do not believe this is your failure, or that you weren’t ready, or anything like that. You have always seemed like a Havanese family to me, and if that is still something you hope for, don’t give up on it based on this experience. I know you love Ernie and this is hard, and you need time to heal. Maybe something to consider when you’re ready is asking your breeder to help you network to find a retiring adult Havanese being placed by a breeder, since she’s involved in the Havanese community.


Thank you so much for your kind words, they mean a lot. This community is truly incredible. It's very difficult to make sense of the situation and yes I'm definitely trying to figure out where we went wrong. If I had to guess I think his aggression comes from a place of guarding me. Both of his recent bites happened when a man was approaching me, but I could be wrong. He's never experienced any trauma from a man. I just wrote out a long history of our time with Ernie for his foster mom and I know in my heart that I did the best I could for him. Sometimes things just don't work out how we want them to. We need to get past the transfer and then take plenty of time to heal. I would like to look forward to another puppy so we can have a light at the end of the tunnel but at this point it's not something either of us can imagine taking on. Maybe at some point that will change or maybe down the road we will talk with the breeder about bringing an adult into our home if one becomes available. We need time to decompress but I know there's so much we will miss about having Ernie. Thank you all for your kindness and support.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

{Hugs} I can only imagine how rough this is for you and your whole family. And I, too, am proud of this whole community, and how kind and supportive they have been to you while you went through this rough decision! ❤


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

I’m sure your heart is breaking with this decision, but it’s wonderful to see how much care and intention you’ve approached something excruciating like this. It’s so heartening to hear that your breeder has been supportive through it all, and I know you and your family are making the right decision for you and him. Really sounds like Ernie will be set up for success in an environment where he can be safe and happy… far better for it to go down this way than for something to happen with your kids. Sending hugs!


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## Mama Mills (Jul 5, 2020)

Forever my good boy. I think we are going to do the transfer tomorrow...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mama Mills said:


> Forever my good boy. I think we are going to do the transfer tomorrow...
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> View attachment 177590


He IS a good boy! And don't forget that you are doing the best thing for HIM too! You don't want to leave him in a place where he can continue to practice a behavior like this. It is not JUST for your family that you are doing this. It is the loving thing to do for HIM too! 💕


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## NotAMuggle (Dec 4, 2020)

Mama Mills said:


> Forever my good boy. I think we are going to do the transfer tomorrow...
> View attachment 177589
> View attachment 177590


I can't imagine how hard this is for you. You're doing what's best for your family and Ernie though. Sending hugs your way.


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

Thinking of you today. Sending hugs. ❤


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

Mama Mills said:


> Forever my good boy. I think we are going to do the transfer tomorrow...
> View attachment 177589
> View attachment 177590


Mama Mills I am so sorry you, your family and Ernie (and your breeder too) have had this experience💔. Your dedication and care towards Ernie has been second to none and you really don’t deserve this. Your situation really brings to me mind the Serenity prayer, I hope you don’t mind me posting it: 

_God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference._

As others have said I too wonder if Ernie perhaps has an undisclosed medical condition that may come to light in the future. I hope if it does it will take some of the burden you feel from you.

I pray for peace, healing and happiness for you all. As others have said please don’t close the door forever on another havanese in the future, if anyone deserves the long term joy a havanese can bring it is you. 
xx


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## Mama Mills (Jul 5, 2020)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Mama Mills I am so sorry you, your family and Ernie (and your breeder too) have had this experience💔. Your dedication and care towards Ernie has been second to none and you really don’t deserve this. Your situation really brings to me mind the Serenity prayer, I hope you don’t mind me posting it:
> 
> _God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference._
> 
> ...


Hi Claire, this is so very kind of you and it means a lot to me. The meaning behind the serenity prayer has brought me a lot of comfort over the past month.

It’s strange not having Ernie with us and it’s taken the kids a good bit of time to understand the reality of the situation. Very sad but we are making it a point to do little trips that we weren’t able to do in the past and have as much fun as we can. I still haven’t been able to put the last of his things away. I did let the breeder know we would be interested in bringing an adult dog into our family and she said she’d keep me in mind. I don’t think we’ll be ready to consider a puppy for at least another year.

I’ve received several updates and it sounds like Ernie is now doing really well. He had a rough time for the first couple days and was fearful. Now he plays with the other dogs and has been showing real confidence. I hope he continues to thrive and receives lots of love throughout his life <3


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mama Mills said:


> Hi Claire, this is so very kind of you and it means a lot to me. The meaning behind the serenity prayer has brought me a lot of comfort over the past month.
> 
> It’s strange not having Ernie with us and it’s taken the kids a good bit of time to understand the reality of the situation. Very sad but we are making it a point to do little trips that we weren’t able to do in the past and have as much fun as we can. I still haven’t been able to put the last of his things away. I did let the breeder know we would be interested in bringing an adult dog into our family and she said she’d keep me in mind. I don’t think we’ll be ready to consider a puppy for at least another year.
> 
> I’ve received several updates and it sounds like Ernie is now doing really well. He had a rough time for the first couple days and was fearful. Now he plays with the other dogs and has been showing real confidence. I hope he continues to thrive and receives lots of love throughout his life <3


I’m so happy to hear from you, and while I am sure there is still healing that needs to happen, it sounds like you are working on it. And it sounds like Ernie is settling in nicely. Hugs to all of you!


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## Mama Mills (Jul 5, 2020)

Hello friends, I hope everyone is well. Here is an update on our family for anyone who is interested. We ended up adopting the sweetest dog from a shelter near our house about two weeks ago! We weren’t planning on getting another dog so soon but I couldn’t keep myself from stopping by the shelter and when I met Lambchop… it was love at first sight. He had arrived from Laredo, TX only a couple days earlier, very thin (13 pounds), with a bunch of other dogs in rough shape. They were all heavily dewormed due to live worms in their feces, he was also vaccinated, neutered and given a heart worm preventative/tick flee combo med… yuck. Poor boy has urlichia (which I’m probably misspelling), it’s a tick borne disease that is treatable with 30 days of antibiotics. He was very sick and pitiful when we me, wearing a cone… he even had a poopy bum. After convincing DH he was meant to be with us (no easy feat) I couldn’t wait to bring him home and nurse him back to health! Unfortunately things didn’t go quite as I’d hoped, Lambchop was feeling so miserable he slept constantly and wouldn’t even drink water for the first week, it was scary. We had many visits back to the shelter and a visit to a new vet where he got fluids for three days in a row as well as anti nausea meds. It’s been a rollercoaster ride but he’s really bouncing back now and he’s such a joy!! He’s been the perfect soothing balm on our hearts and I’m just so happy to have him. He’s incredibly gentle, goofy and loves nothing more than cuddling. The shelter said he’s 1yo but I suspect he may be a little older. They also said he’s a spaniel mix but the jury is still out on that. He has a couple more weeks of antibiotics (vet lowered dosage because he wasn’t keeping them down) and then I think we’ll be home free. He’s completely devoted to me and loves the kids but he’s scared of DH so we are making sure he has space. He’s also a fence jumper… so he’s currently always on a lead, we are exploring options, please let me know if you have suggestions. 3/4 of our fence is 6’ cedar and the back is 4’ chain link. Anyway.. just wanted to let you all know we are doing very well and have found our perfect best buddy. Ironically we were also offered a beautiful puppy from a new litter last week by Ernie’s breeder. I let her know she could take us off her list. What a journey it’s been. Here is our boy Cloudy (formerly Lambchop).


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## Mama Mills (Jul 5, 2020)




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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

What a sweet face your Lambchop has. I'm happy for your finding him, and he has certainly landed in the lap of a loving family.


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## NotAMuggle (Dec 4, 2020)

Oh he is toooo cute!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I'm so happy for you! Glad you and Cloudy found each other!!!


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## Toffee170221 (Sep 10, 2021)

Sweet Cloudy and a lucky boy to have found you as his forever family 🦋🌻🌈💐🌟💖


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Sheri said:


> What a sweet face your Lambchop has. I'm happy for your finding him, and he has certainly landed in the lap of a loving family.


I missed the name change. Glad you and Cloudy found each other.


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

Wishing you all the best with your new addition!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Wonderful news. Wishing you the very best. Cloudy sounds like a sweetheart.


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