# Dog Parks are Actually - Bad



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

I'm always been skeptical (afraid) of dog parks. From the road I see lots of big dogs running around, with the owners on the other side ignoring and chatting with others.

Any experiences or thoughts about Dog Parks?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/06/...n=click&module=Smarter Living&pgtype=Homepage


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

I stay away from dog parks for a few reasons. 1) I don’t need my dogs sniffing or stepping in anything from a strange dog that could have parasites or disease, 2) I fear moronic owners who want their dogs to say hello or sniff my dogs, or worse yet let them off leash, and 3) my dogs can get plenty of fun elsewhere so do not really need to go there. I have enough trouble with moronic dog owners just walking around my subdivision.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Not for my dogs... Disease, fleas, parasites (you wouldn't believe how few people actually pick up after their own dogs in my experience), danger from poorly behaved dogs... Nope! We don't need any of that! 

The ONLY "dog parks" we EVER use are in RV parks when we travel. These are usually very lightly used, all dog owners must present their dog's vaccination (or titer) record when entering the park, the dog areas are "policed" daily by the staff, so even if the campers don't pick up after themselves (most seem to) we've rarely seen any dog poop in an RV dog park. AND... we are extremely selective about whether or not we let our dogs play with any OTHER dogs in the RV dog parks. Usually, we use it when it is empty, and it just gives us a chance for some off-leash training for the younger ones. (Kodi is reliable enough for off-leash training pretty much anywhere, but we don't ENTIRELY trust the girls if other people have food on grills, etc! LOL!) Especially to do some LONG recalls after being cooped up in the truck all day! If someone else shows up, we just leash ours up and let the new folks have their turn.

But no, in general, I don't have much use for dog parks.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

good and bad ... Risky chasing behaviors almost always include out of control and high arousal chasing that may include one of more of the following: group chase, hard physical contact, pinning, high tail carriage, neck or throat fixation and the chasee hiding, or trying to get away.
Mobbing is a group of individual dogs approaching, harassing, controlling or attacking a single dog. This can be with or without bloodshed.
Targeting is one dog following or pursuing another dog relentlessly, exclusively, obsessively. It's relentless engagement that may or may not include many of the behaviors displayed in Risky Chasing.
Bullying is a form of aggressive behavior through the use of physical overpowering, hard contact, body slamming, hip-checking, shoulder-checking, relentless engagement, chase or ganging up to affect an individual dog.
Hunting is when a dog moves around the dog park going from dog to dog, looking for something to jab, chase, poke, pounce on, roll. This is not looking for a playmate, but forcing himself on other dogs.

here's a good article Animal Behavior Associates, Inc. Behavior Consulting


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> good and bad ... Risky chasing behaviors almost always include out of control and high arousal chasing that may include one of more of the following: group chase, hard physical contact, pinning, high tail carriage, neck or throat fixation and the chasee hiding, or trying to get away.
> Mobbing is a group of individual dogs approaching, harassing, controlling or attacking a single dog. This can be with or without bloodshed.
> Targeting is one dog following or pursuing another dog relentlessly, exclusively, obsessively. It's relentless engagement that may or may not include many of the behaviors displayed in Risky Chasing.
> Bullying is a form of aggressive behavior through the use of physical overpowering, hard contact, body slamming, hip-checking, shoulder-checking, relentless engagement, chase or ganging up to affect an individual dog.
> ...


And what I've seen is that as long as the "aggressor dogs" have their tails wagging (as is often the case) and are not actively growly, snarling or drawing blood, their owners do not see the behavior as anything other than "just playing".


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

davetgabby said:


> *good and bad * ... Risky chasing behaviors almost always include out of control and high arousal chasing that may include one of more of the following: group chase, hard physical contact, pinning, high tail carriage, neck or throat fixation and the chasee hiding, or trying to get away.
> Mobbing is a group of individual dogs approaching, harassing, controlling or attacking a single dog. This can be with or without bloodshed.
> Targeting is one dog following or pursuing another dog relentlessly, exclusively, obsessively. It's relentless engagement that may or may not include many of the behaviors displayed in Risky Chasing.
> Bullying is a form of aggressive behavior through the use of physical overpowering, hard contact, body slamming, hip-checking, shoulder-checking, relentless engagement, chase or ganging up to affect an individual dog.
> ...


Yikes!!! Dave .... where is the Good?? LOL~~


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

many people and dogs can benefit https://apdt.com/resource-center/dog-park-pros-cons/

and here https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/care/socialization/the-pros-and-cons-of-dog-parks/

and here https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/...-parks-can-be-fun-places-go-the-dog-has-agree


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

There are pros and cons to everything. However, for me the risks are not worth it. Two years ago my yorkie was attacked and almost killed by an off leash pit bull in my own neighborhood. The owner could not believe her sweet dog could do this. I now walk with a walking stick and carry dog spray wherever I go. There is no way I will risk going to a dog park. They should at least have a separate area for small dogs. Although small dogs could get into fights, the real risk is your small dog being viewed as prey by a large dog. Some of the large dogs may be super sweet, however they could have a super strong prey drive and may not be socialized around small dogs. Trust me...this can happen very fast too. As a small dog owner, it is my duty to take extra precautions to protect my small dog. No dog parks for me.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I hear you on that, but many small dog owners are too protective and that too can lead to problems.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

davetgabby said:


> I hear you on that, but many small dog owners are too protective and that too can lead to problems.


I am not too protective. I am prepared. I still walk around the neighborhood 4 miles today. I just carry a stick and dog spray. We do pack walks with friendly dogs in the neighborhood. They also play with dogs of friends and relatives. Not seeing the need for dog parks and the fleas, parasites and other risks that go with it. To each his own.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

i didn't say you were ?


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

davetgabby said:


> i didn't say you were ?


No you didn't. I was making a point that being prepared does not mean you are over protective.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Here is an example of what happened at a dog park near me. I do not mean to prejudice people based on my experiences but good to be aware of what can happen. If there are other safer ways to give your dog the socialization it needs, why go to dog parks. Just my opinion.

https://www.riverfronttimes.com/new...lling-golden-retriever-in-wentzville-dog-park


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

I'm been afraid of dogs parks, but see lots of people using them. After this thread ... I won't be going to one.

We have a fenced in yard and Patti is in and out all day through a doggie door and has lots! of fun chasing deer, the neighborhood cat or barking at the neighbor and his little horses, which are all outside the fence. There are bare spots in the corners of the yard where Patti scratches the yard with her back feet as she barks, to let All! know she's serious. *Grrrrrr!*

I leash walk her around a golf course and have learned even big dogs on leashes can be too rough when saying Hello! We, also, have a 9 year-old Golden-doodle in the house and they're company for one another. The Golden weighs about 70lbs, but is a very mild manner dog who is no longer interested in playing and has always given Patti a Puppy Pass. Unfortunately, Patti is unafraid of Big Dogs and wants to play when she sees one.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> There are pros and cons to everything. However, for me the risks are not worth it. Two years ago my yorkie was attacked and almost killed by an off leash pit bull in my own neighborhood. The owner could not believe her sweet dog could do this. I now walk with a walking stick and carry dog spray wherever I go. There is no way I will risk going to a dog park. They should at least have a separate area for small dogs. Although small dogs could get into fights, the real risk is your small dog being viewed as prey by a large dog. Some of the large dogs may be super sweet, however they could have a super strong prey drive and may not be socialized around small dogs. Trust me...this can happen very fast too. As a small dog owner, it is my duty to take extra precautions to protect my small dog. No dog parks for me.


I would say that's "one of the risks" not just "the real risk". Because if your dog (of any size) is being traumatized by being bullied by other dogs, even if it's not killed or physically harmed, and that makes it seriously fearful of other dogs, that is a long term, if not life-long problem for both you AND the dog. Death is tragic and shocking, but over quickly. A life-long fear or reactivity issue can be a management/training problem, and make life difficult and uncomfortable for both the owner AND the dog for many, many years. neither one is any good, and I don't want any part of either one!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> I hear you on that, but many small dog owners are too protective and that too can lead to problems.


Absolutely! But I don't think dog parks are the place to work on that!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> I would say that's "one of the risks" not just "the real risk". Because if your dog (of any size) is being traumatized by being bullied by other dogs, even if it's not killed or physically harmed, and that makes it seriously fearful of other dogs, that is a long term, if not life-long problem for both you AND the dog. Death is tragic and shocking, but over quickly. A life-long fear or reactivity issue can be a management/training problem, and make life difficult and uncomfortable for both the owner AND the dog for many, many years. neither one is any good, and I don't want any part of either one!


I agree completely. After my yorkie was traumatized I was very scared he would become a fearful dog and potentially aggressive if he felt threatened. I know a couple dogs like this and it is terrible. I was very lucky that my yorkie survived both physically and emotionally. He is still as sweet and friendly as a dog could possibly be! I am so very thankful for this.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

The other day I started to post about how sad it is because I do think there’s a true need for places that allow dogs off leash. I got distracted and never finished my post. 

THEN I read what Dave posted about Risky Chase and I am terrified! Is chase only risky? Because chase is my dog’s favorite game at the dog park and daycare! He listens when other dogs don’t want to play, and I always thought it was awesome how he’ll invite a dog to chase him, then after a few minutes chase that dog, then invite the dog to chase him again. 

If I have become the unknowing poster child for oblivious dog park patron with a poorly behaved dog, I don’t know what I’ll do! 

I do think it’s more complicated and bigger than just “dog parks are bad.” It’s more my overall philosophy rather than an opinion specifically regarding dog parks, but I wish there were more opportunities for training to allow dogs in more places (like good citizenship). It also seems related to the ambiguous definition of emotional support dogs vs. therapy dogs, and where they are allowed to go.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

@EvaElizabeth ... I assume the dog you take to the dog park is a Havanese.. a Toy Dog? Are big dogs invited to the Chase game?

We move to the mountains during the summer months to get out of HOT!!!! summer weather, and we don't have a yard. When there I wish there was a place I could turn Patti loose. There is a dog park but haven't taken her there. I doubt I would turn her loose unless I had experience with the other dogs. In the mountains most people have BIG dogs. I'm afraid to turn her loose when hiking because she may spot a critter and begin a Chase Game ... without fencing.

I agree ... if you don't have yard it would be nice to be able to turn them loose.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> The other day I started to post about how sad it is because I do think there's a true need for places that allow dogs off leash. I got distracted and never finished my post.
> 
> THEN I read what Dave posted about Risky Chase and I am terrified! Is chase only risky? Because chase is my dog's favorite game at the dog park and daycare! He listens when other dogs don't want to play, and I always thought it was awesome how he'll invite a dog to chase him, then after a few minutes chase that dog, then invite the dog to chase him again.
> 
> ...


There is CERTAINLY "chase play" that is absolutely FINE when it is between two willing participants. Usually, those participants know each other and enjoy each other's company. Four out of the five living here are relatively evenly matched in size (the three Havanese, and the mixed breed, who is 35 lbs, but very short-legged) They ALL play chase with each other from time to time, and it is instigated by different ones at different times. (it is NEVER, BTW, allowed in the house, but that is _MY_ rule!  ) It is usually instigated with a play bow and waggy tail, and a quick dart away, looking to see if the other dog is following. This is sometimes repeated if the second dog did not immediately engage. Panda and Pixel will both sigh and walk away if a couple of attempts do not produce a play session. We have to interfere if it is Coco, (the mix) attempting to get Kodi to play, because she won't take "no" for an answer from him, and will aggravate him until he retreats into a corner or comes to one of us looking for help. (not sure WHY she targets him this way, except that dog s, like kids, want what is hardest to get, and he is least likely to engage.

Interestingly, Chipper, the Treewalker, is NOT allowed (dog rules) to play the chase games if the Havanese are involved. He and Coco sometimes play. But if the Havanese are involved, and Chipper tries to chase, the Havanese girls IMMEDIATELY turn on him. Their tone of voice changes completely, and it is clear that it is no longer play. They warn him off. You can hear them saying "You're too big for this!!!"

And they are right. He is huge, ungainly, and not careful, even though he doesn't have a mean bone in his body. He has sent them "bowling" more than once, just by carelessly charging thoughtlessly through the house. We constantly have to remind him to "slow down" as he is entering the house. It's like living with a horse in the house. He'll knock the baby over just as easily.

The BIG difference is that these dogs all know each other, and Chipper is incredibly sweet, and he DOES listen when the little girls (or we) tell him to back off.

If you like dog parks and have a dog who SEEMS to enjoy them, and there are chase games going on, (whether your dog is a chaser or a chasee) One really good way to determine whether your dog and the others are REALLY enjoying it or not is to separate them for a few seconds. HOPEFULLY they are under good enough control that you can walk to them, and everyone can grab their dogs' collars, stroke their dogs and hand out some cookies. Then the chasee should be released. Do they hang back with their owner or take off, or do they head over to re-engage with their buddies? If they go right back for more, it's a really good sign that they really WERE enjoying it. It is also a good sign if the same dog is not ALWAYS the chasee.

But... you still have the other dog part issues of disease, parasites and filth.  And this kind of intervention works best if you have the buy-in of the other dog park people.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

We live in a Havanese dog park, but that's the only one they're allowed in.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

We live in a dog cat park...there are occasional inter species “disputes” but not too dangerous.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Just wanted to pop in to say that I've always liked the idea of off-leash dog parks, but I've generally been too nervous to try one out. The exception is when we're on the road. In that case, we like having a fenced area in which to give Shama a break from riding in the car. We've rarely encountered other dogs at these parks. I've never been to the off-leash dog park in my city ...

What I really wish is that you all could bring your Havanese over to play in our fenced-in yard! It is a joy to see Havanese playing together! I'm grateful that we have an active club (North Star Havanese Club) that has gatherings a few times a year.

Our next gathering will be held at a facility that opened recently. I need to check out the Tiny Tots Playgroup that this facility offers: dogs under 15 pounds only ...

https://dogdaygetaway.com/services/dog-playgroups


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tom King said:


> We live in a Havanese dog park, but that's the only one they're allowed in.


LOL!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ShamaMama said:


> Just wanted to pop in to say that I've always liked the idea of off-leash dog parks, but I've generally been too nervous to try one out. The exception is when we're on the road. In that case, we like having a fenced area in which to give Shama a break from riding in the car. We've rarely encountered other dogs at these parks. I've never been to the off-leash dog park in my city ...
> 
> What I really wish is that you all could bring your Havanese over to play in our fenced-in yard! It is a joy to see Havanese playing together! I'm grateful that we have an active club (North Star Havanese Club) that has gatherings a few times a year.
> 
> ...


I've said before that even if folks live in an area without a dedicated dog park or fenced yard, several friends with small, compatible dogs who each invest in ONE ex-pen, can string those together in ANYONE's yard and make a safe, portable "yard" for their pets' to socialize in while all the hoomanz socialize with a lawn chair and a glass of iced tea outside the ex-penned area! It just takes a little creativity!


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

We don't go to dog parks. Truffles doesn't like to socialize with other dogs. There is a leash law here so it's difficult to find a place for dogs to run. Our town has a dog park that is on a corner of two busy streets. It wouldn't be fun for Scout and Truffles. My husband takes them several times a week on trails and to the beach which they love.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> The other day I started to post about how sad it is because I do think there's a true need for places that allow dogs off leash. I got distracted and never finished my post.
> 
> THEN I read what Dave posted about Risky Chase and I am terrified! Is chase only risky? Because chase is my dog's favorite game at the dog park and daycare! He listens when other dogs don't want to play, and I always thought it was awesome how he'll invite a dog to chase him, then after a few minutes chase that dog, then invite the dog to chase him again.
> 
> ...


no , chasing is only risky when it involves the things mentioned. What you're describing is invited and playful and it obviously has had not bad consequences. Glad your dog enjoys the dog park, many do. It's not all horror stories. It's not the place to "learn" appropriate behavior , only to practice it. :tea:


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Heather's said:


> We don't go to dog parks. Truffles doesn't like to socialize with other dogs. There is a leash law here so it's difficult to find a place for dogs to run. Our town has a dog park that is on a corner of two busy streets. It wouldn't be fun for Scout and Truffles. My husband takes them several times a week on trails and to the beach which they love.
> View attachment 162594


Wow that does sound fun. I think there are many ways for dogs to have fun other than dog parks. And many dogs (like yours) may not even enjoy them. I think we have been brainwashed a little into thinking our dogs need them and that we are depriving them somehow by not going there.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

mudpuppymama said:


> I think we have been brainwashed a little into thinking our dogs need them and that we are depriving them somehow by not going there.


My dad pointed out to me that when I was growing up, our doberman and our minpin never got together with other dogs for playdates ... (Of course we also trained them using choke collars - even my little five-pound runt minpin!)

I inquired about the "tiny tots" play group at that facility I mentioned above. They said there are usually about THIRTY tots (under 15 pounds each) at a session. Can you imagine?


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

ShamaMama said:


> My dad pointed out to me that when I was growing up, our doberman and our minpin never got together with other dogs for playdates ... (Of course we also trained them using choke collars - even my little five-pound runt minpin!)
> 
> *I inquired about the "tiny tots" play group at that facility I mentioned above. They said there are usually about THIRTY tots (under 15 pounds each) at a session. Can you imagine?*


30! .... I assume there's an entry fee for this Tiny Top play group. Sounds the Tiny Tot Play Date is more for Profit than anything else.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Mikki said:


> 30! .... I assume there's an entry fee for this Tiny Top play group. Sounds the Tiny Tot Play Date is more for Profit than anything else.


Yes, that's what it sounds like to me. I think I'll pop in sometime without Shama to observe ...


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Oh dear, I think I am about to step in it! First, I don't agree with the ultimatum in the thread Title. I think a better Title would be, "Use caution and judgement when visiting a dog park."

Some history: When Ricky first came to live with us, we lived in a house with a VERY small fenced back yard and no way to expand it. To socialize Ricky and introduce him to his surroundings I started the first ever Dog Owners Group (D.O.G.) in our community HOA. I organized a community pack walk every Saturday morning along the trail system that runs throughout our 1854 home, gated, 55+ community. After the intervening 5 years we have expanded to include Wednesday evening pack walks as well. The pack walks are limited to residents only and no retractable leashes are allowed. We have as many as 20 dogs on a pack walk that range in size from 7 pounds to 100 pounds. All the dogs are best friends and there is little barking (usually at an intimidated Cottontail) and no disagreements. We clean the trails from poop left by other less responsible dog owners who choose not to be part of the group as well as 'scat' left by coyotes, raccoons, etc. D.O.G. members have become a valued asset to our community.

When Momi, Popi, and Ricky visit our vacation home in Mexico we have a play group that meets on the big lawn in front of our condo. The play group consists of a Papillon, mini-Schnauzer, K.C. Cavalier, Ricky and another Havanese "loco CoCo" from Boulder, Co. All the dogs play together in the afternoon with games like chase the ball, doggie tag, tug of war on a piece of rope, doggie hide and seek in the bushes, and chase me-chase you. After 30/45 minutes all the dogs are exhausted and crash and it is time to call it a day. Unfortunately, loco Coco has sold their place and will not be returning. :frown2: BUT we have met a new Havanese, Oakley, who is a full time resident in Mexico and he will be introduced into our play group. This is a play group that most (but not necessarily all) dogs would enjoy, no stress, no strain. The Cavalier prefers to hang at the edge of the activity and enjoy the other dog's presence and that is fine.

About the time I started D.O.G. in California, I started to lobby the community Board of Directors for a 'Fenced Off Leash Area' for community dogs to play in. Our community rules require that all dogs be on a leash when outside the private fenced area. The idea has met with a lot of resistance even though we have around 1000 dogs in our community. But many of these homes have no fenced private yards or very small yards. But Ricky's Popi does not give up easily!

THERE ARE 'DOG PARKS' AND THEN THERE ARE 'DOG PARKS.' (context is important!)
An update:

After 5+ years of persistence by Popi and other dog loving enthusiasts in our community, a suitable site for a fenced off leash area was found within the gates of our community last December. It was quickly dubbed the Canine Corral by a member of the Board of Directors. An anonymous community donor contributed $15,000 to erect a fence and other amenities for the Canine Corral, so there will be no expense to the HOA at large. The Board of Directors approved the Canine Corral by a unanimous vote last month. They established an advisory committee, the Canine Council, to self-administer the area. The fence was erected last week. There are a couple of details that need to be added to make it complete (e.g. addition of doggie waste stations) with a Grand Opening scheduled for February 29 (LEAP DAY :grin2 But there is a fly in the soup :surprise: A group of 7 community homeowners have filed a lawsuit against the Canine Corral. The complaint is: will not be kept clean, will be noisy, visually ugly, will raise HOA fees, will result in lawsuits for dog related injuries, etc. None of these are true, so they will lose in the Courts.

This is what makes the Canine Corral different from a public dog park:
* only residents of our community and resident dogs will be allowed - NO DOGGIE GUESTS WILL BE ALLOWED
* there is a large dog side and a small dog side (under 25 pounds) with a double gate for entrance
* gate(s) will be constantly locked with entrance only by a dedicated key fob that records residents name and time.
* dogs will be screened first before granting a permit for use and a dedicated key fob
*resident will be required to show a current insurance policy that includes dog related injuries coverage
* dogs MUST BE spayed/neutered
* female dogs in heat will not permitted in the facility during that time
* over-stimulated, aggressive dogs must be removed immediately
* no doggie toys, food, treats are permitted in fenced area
* dog will need to show current vaccinations signed by a Vet
* dog will need to show a current City license
* photos of both owner and dog are required on application
* there will be an annual fee to use the area because repairs and maintenance will be completely self funded.
* if any owner does not clean up after their dog, if a dog exceeds the community guidelines for barking, if they grant entrance to friends or guests, they will permanently lose their privileges.
*if a dog shows any sign of sickness (loose bowels, vomiting, etc.) they must be removed from the facility immediately.
* actually, there are 23 requirements to be met before a permit and key fob is granted for entry

These restrictions are tough, and one community dog owner said to me that they were not going to do all of that, just too much bureaucracy. I agreed with them, the Canine Corral is not for everyone. Ricky's play style is exuberant, enthusiastic, rough and tumble, with some playful growling at times. Many dog owners and their shy dogs do not recognize this type of play. I understand. If Ricky becomes too aggressive in his play, I will move him to the large dog side, where his play style will be less intimidating, or put him in "time out", or remove him from the facility for the day until he calms down and is less stimulated. I have met Kodi, Panda, and Pixel. In my opinion Kodi and Ricky would be great play mates, and even Panda maybe, but I think sweet Pixel would be overwhelmed by Ricky. I have seen pictures of a dozen or more Havanese in a play group in a fenced area on this Forum. In reality, this a temporary dog park by invitation only. What is the difference between that 'dog park' and the Canine Corral, a private, pre-qualified, with lots of rules 'dog park'?

Ricky and I are excited about the Canine Corral. it will gives us the opportunity to play with other like minded dogs; it will allow us to train off leash ( when appropriate and we are the only occupants at the time) so that we can get back to training for the next level of obedience competition; and it will build camaraderie among the dog owners in our community.

The Canine Corral will not be appropriate for all dogs in our community. Although there will be screening provided by the Canine Council, ultimately it is up to the owner to determine the suitability of their dog in the facility at any time. There are around 1000 dogs in our community, but I expect only 50 to 100 dogs that will meet the requirements, want to participate, agree to the rules, and will take advantage of the Canine Corral. I will be surprised if there are more than 10/12 dogs in both sides at any one time. Probably fewer than 4 most of the time.

Ricky and I have been to public dog parks and the experienced has been mixed for us. At public facilities, Ricky becomes surprising shy - "Popi, I don't know any doggies here" look and he will hop on the bench next to me and just survey the activity. But on a pack walk with dogs he knows, he tries to instigate an insurrection and get other dogs to play with him rather than limit the activity to a pack walk.

So there are 'dog parks' and then there are 'dog parks.' It just depends............ and I think our Canine Corral has a great chance for success.

Ricky's Popi


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ShamaMama said:


> Yes, that's what it sounds like to me. I think I'll pop in sometime without Shama to observe ...


I took Kodi to a small dog play group once, many years ago, when I knew less. We were BOTH horrified. It was held at an indoor facility, and most of the other peoply very casually came with the equivalent of a diaper bag... with paper towels and nature's miracle, and followed their dogs around as they peed and pooped everywhere.

I put Kodi on the floor and a Jack Russell and a Yorkie (both half his size) immediately came over and started to try to relentlessly hump him. When I tried to discourage them, I got the "oh, they are just playing!" response from the owners, as Kodi tried to hide under the chairs. Kodi finally asked to sit in my lap, where he stayed for the rest of the get-together. We didn't go back.

So just because they were all small dogs didn't make it a positive experience, And Kodi is a very well socialized dog, eho gets along well with other dogs in general, and is really a very good judge of character in other dogs. The experience certainly didn't do him any harm, but I wouldn't have wanted to put a less experienced dog into that situation.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> We didn't go back.


I think you made the right decision in this situation. Ultimately it is up to the owner to do what they think is best for their dog in any situation. Some play groups work for your dog and some don't. I am curious why you think a play group at your house seems to work and one in a public location doesn't. I suspect it is not the particular group of dogs but more like the particular group of responsible owners who assembled at your house.

It just depends.

Ricky's Popi


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Popi, I wish we lived there! Thank you for your thorough reply. I hope it is OK if I pass that information along to a nearby community that is about to open a new dog park. Hope you're well!


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

ShamaMama said:


> Popi, I wish we lived there! Thank you for your thorough reply. I hope it is OK if I pass that information along to a nearby community that is about to open a new dog park. Hope you're well!


Mama of Shama, I can do better than that! The response I posted was merely the "highlights" of our program. Our community BoD formed an official Ad Hoc Advisory Committee made up of resident members of our community to study the concept of a private 'dog park' withing the gates of a private Home Owners Association. The Committee was very thorough, creative, and innovative. Their work lasted almost two years. To be clear, I was not on the Committee because of other official commitments and responsibilities in our community but I was a non-voting supporting observer at the meetings. Our proposal for the Canine Corral has dozens of pages of research, deliberations, committee minutes, FAQ's, and conclusions.

If anyone wants a copy, send me a PM and I will respond with a PFD attachment. Use it as you wish, you might find some interesting information within.

BTW, our 55+ community has been recognized by a number of different organizations as one of the top five 55+ communities in the UNITED STATES using a number of different parameters. We have dozens of SIGs (Special Interest Groups) with D.O.G. being one of the largest groups, with around 400 members, and second only to the largest, the Wine Club :wink2:, with over 600 members! and the Travel Club follows with 350 members. Our community goal is to allow something for everyone in our Active Senior Community, realizing that not everyone will utilize all the opportunities. :tea:

Ricky's Popi


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

I understand everyone's concerns, reluctance, reservations, and negative attitude toward 'dog parks.' I have some of the same concerns and that is why I stopped using our local public, City sponsored dog park. It wasn't so much about the dogs but the attitude of the owners who brought their dogs there. I have never me an intrinsically 'bad dog' but I have met a bunch of bad dog owners. A perfect example is the guy who lives across the street from me with his 90 pound German Shepherd. He lets his dog run free around the neighborhood (which is a violation of community rules) - harassing residents and their dogs, pooping in their yards, and digging up landscaping. When his dog is caught doing this he blames the dog, hits him, yells at him, mistreats him. I feel sorry for that dog. I have tried to talk politely to the owner, but he takes offense and now refuses to acknowledge me. He just doesn't get it.

What I really don't understand is that some responsible dog owners in our community have similar bad experiences and attitudes about 'dog parks' as those who have posted on this thread. I get it! Dog Parks are not for everyone or every dog. The owner is responsible for the safety and well being of their dog. What I don't understand is that about a half dozen of these dog owners are circulating a petition to shut down the Canine Corral...............and it hasn't even opened yet! The irony of this is not lost on our BoD. There is no requirement that a dog owner has to use the Canine Corral, it is optional. The concept will work for some dogs but not for others. Participants will use the Canine Corral at their risk and judgement. But why deny the opportunity to use this facility to some dogs just because an owner will not use it?

I can assure you that there is no one more protective of their dog than Momi and Popi. If we feel that the Canine Corral is a threat to the safety and well being of Ricky Ricardo or if Ricky is a threat to the safety and well being of other dogs (and we are observant and vigilant to a fault) we will stop using it. It is that simple.

In closing, I don't think it makes sense to draw conclusions and ultimatums from individual anecdotal experiences. That was the conclusion of research done by our Ad Hoc Advisory Committee. IT JUST DEPENDS on how an individual 'dog park' is operated.

Ricky's Popi


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I think you made the right decision in this situation. Ultimately it is up to the owner to do what they think is best for their dog in any situation. Some play groups work for your dog and some don't. I am curious why you think a play group at your house seems to work and one in a public location doesn't. I suspect it is not the particular group of dogs but more like the particular group of responsible owners who assembled at your house.
> 
> It just depends.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


First, I think, in general, Havanese have a similar "play style", and most communicate ell with each other. Second, when it IS at my house, or at one of the other houses we use for our play groups, I trust the people running them also to keep things under control. Third, I suspect that our owners are a bit better educated than the average pet dog owner. We always have "time-out" ex-pens for either stud dogs who get too big for their britches, bitches who get too "bitchy", or puppies or puppies who aren't big enough to mix with the adults.

Shy Havies have the option of sitting with or on the laps of their owners, and that is always respected. We would NEVER allow the chasing or "pinning" behaviors Dave has described. But, honestly, I have also not seen these happen, even ONVE at our Havanese play groups. Havanese, in general, seem to like a lot of "parallel play RLH" sessions, with bunches the "herd" charging around side by side, not touching each other. Almost no rough-and-tumble among adults.

Any "snarkiness" tends to be bitches warning off potentially amorous boys, and generally they listen. (owners of girls in heat are asked to leave them home!). IF we had a dog that was a problem, we'd deal with it. But in 10 years now of attending or running Havanese play dates in our area, we just haven't had a problem.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Oh dear, I think I am about to step in it! First, I don't agree with the ultimatum in the thread Title. I think a better Title would be, "Use caution and judgement when visiting a dog park."
> 
> Some history: When Ricky first came to live with us, we lived in a house with a VERY small fenced back yard and no way to expand it. To socialize Ricky and introduce him to his surroundings I started the first ever Dog Owners Group (D.O.G.) in our community HOA. I organized a community pack walk every Saturday morning along the trail system that runs throughout our 1854 home, gated, 55+ community. After the intervening 5 years we have expanded to include Wednesday evening pack walks as well. The pack walks are limited to residents only and no retractable leashes are allowed. We have as many as 20 dogs on a pack walk that range in size from 7 pounds to 100 pounds. All the dogs are best friends and there is little barking (usually at an intimidated Cottontail) and no disagreements. We clean the trails from poop left by other less responsible dog owners who choose not to be part of the group as well as 'scat' left by coyotes, raccoons, etc. D.O.G. members have become a valued asset to our community.
> 
> ...


Yes, while you could nit-pick the rules, I think this has MUCH more chance of success than the typical, free-for-all public dog park. This is much more like what I was describing we have experienced at RV parks!

I don't understand how you can train there, though, if you can't use food...


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

krandall said:


> Havanese, in general, seem to like a lot of "parallel play RLH" sessions, with bunches the "herd" charging around side by side, not touching each other. Almost no rough-and-tumble among adults.


Interesting to hear. I have seen him do that, but I hadn't thought about it that way. We're getting close to seeking out our second Havanese and I'm in the active planning/research stage, making sure we're set up. I've wondered if they'll try to play chase all day, what my tolerances will be as far as when and where it's okay, and how I'll divide/define the space.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Interesting to hear. I have seen him do that, but I hadn't thought about it that way. We're getting close to seeking out our second Havanese and I'm in the active planning/research stage, making sure we're set up. I've wondered if they'll try to play chase all day, what my tolerances will be as far as when and where it's okay, and how I'll divide/define the space.


I think what goes on between "family member" dogs is TOTALLY different, because they know each other better, and they know how to read each other. Mine will DEFINITELY rough and tumble with each other in a way that they NEVER would with other dogs... even other Havanese that they know pretty well. Especially Panda and Pixel do a LOT of rough-housing, probably because they are so much younger. (though Kodi gets involved sometimes too)

Once in a GREAT while, it crosses the line with the girls, and actually turns into a "bitch fight". You hear the voices change, and escalate, and it is time for a human to step in and separate them. They have never actually hurt each other... it is just a lot of noise. But we don't take any chances with that behavior, and shut it down. They are like two sisters. 95% of the time they are "besties". The other 5%... Watch out! The claws come out! (And Kodi NEVER gets involved in THAT nonsense! LOL!)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Interesting to hear. I have seen him do that, but I hadn't thought about it that way. We're getting close to seeking out our second Havanese and I'm in the active planning/research stage, making sure we're set up. I've wondered if they'll try to play chase all day, what my tolerances will be as far as when and where it's okay, and how I'll divide/define the space.


Oh... One other thing... When We first got Pixel, we had to separate her and Kodi quite often when she was really little, to protect KODI! LOL!. She was relentless, had needle-sharp teeth, and he WOULDN'T say "no" to her! She would hang from his ears or his lip, and just look at me for help, but heaven forbid that he should tell the puppy off! LOL!

Obviously, we did let them play together, but when he looked like he'd had enough, we let him go into my office, behind the closed gate, where he could rest in peace, with his bed, and she could torment the human members of the family. Or else she went back in her ex-pen. 

It wasn't so bad with Panda, because Pixel was only 8 months old when Panda came along, and still pretty puppyish herself. If Panda was too much for Kodi, he'd give a little "grump" (he'd learned a bit too!) and she would scamper off to play with Pixel instead. Pixel's energy was a match for her!


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## HavFancier (Jan 25, 2020)

ShamaMama said:


> Just wanted to pop in to say that I've always liked the idea of off-leash dog parks, but I've generally been too nervous to try one out. The exception is when we're on the road. In that case, we like having a fenced area in which to give Shama a break from riding in the car. We've rarely encountered other dogs at these parks. I've never been to the off-leash dog park in my city ..
> What I really wish is that you all could bring your Havanese over to play in our fenced-in yard! It is a joy to see Havanese playing together! I'm grateful that we have an active club (North Star Havanese Club) that has gatherings a few times a year.
> Our next gathering will be held at a facility that opened recently. I need to check out the Tiny Tots Playgroup that this facility offers: dogs under 15 pounds only ...
> https://dogdaygetaway.com/services/dog-playgroups


I would love that so much. My Hashi is only 4 pounds, but her confidence grows daily. There is a dog park near us that was fine for our Labradors (the only things they chased were tennis balls), but all of the dogs are humongous! It's too early for her, vaccination-wise, but I wish I had a place to let her off-leash outside, but I live in an apartment complex.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Welcome Hashi! You didn't say how old Hashi is, but I would definitely wait to introduce her to a playgroup - dog park or not. Our Canine Corral, a private off leash area with lots of rules, requires that any dog must be a minimum of 6 months old and all vaccinations are complete. I support this rule.

I suggest you wait until her vaccinations are complete (and get a release from your Vet) and at least 6 months and then introduce her to a similar size neighbor dog inside your apartment. Watch both dogs closely and read their body language to see how each reacts. Be ready to step in if necessary.

Next, introduce Hashi to a public dog park when it is completely vacant. Let her explore and size up the new found freedom. Public dog parks can be a source of disease. Do not let her drink from a common water source. Survey the park for any dog waste. Clean up the waste before you let Hashi loose. Dog poop can be a dangerous source of disease.

Finally, take her to that public park when you find a compatible group of dogs - similar size, similar temperament, and owners who remain engaged with their dogs while there rather than visiting with their human neighbors.

Exercise extreme caution when using a public dog park - some are better than others.

Ricky's Popi



HavFancier said:


> I would love that so much. My Hashi is only 4 pounds, but her confidence grows daily. There is a dog park near us that was fine for our Labradors (the only things they chased were tennis balls), but all of the dogs are humongous! It's too early for her, vaccination-wise, but I wish I had a place to let her off-leash outside, but I live in an apartment complex.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> BTW, our 55+ community has been recognized by a number of different organizations as one of the top five 55+ communities in the UNITED STATES using a number of different parameters. We have dozens of SIGs (Special Interest Groups) with D.O.G. being one of the largest groups, with around 400 members, and second only to the largest, the Wine Club :wink2:, with over 600 members! and the Travel Club follows with 350 members. Our community goal is to allow something for everyone in our Active Senior Community, realizing that not everyone will utilize all the opportunities. :tea:
> 
> Ricky's Popi


Where is this wonderful 55+ community?


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## HavFancier (Jan 25, 2020)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Welcome Hashi! You didn't say how old Hashi is, but I would definitely wait to introduce her to a playgroup - dog park or not. Our Canine Corral, a private off leash area with lots of rules, requires that any dog must be a minimum of 6 months old and all vaccinations are complete. I support this rule.
> 
> I suggest you wait until her vaccinations are complete (and get a release from your Vet) and at least 6 months and then introduce her to a similar size neighbor dog inside your apartment. Watch both dogs closely and read their body language to see how each reacts. Be ready to step in if necessary.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Popi!

Hashi just turned 12 weeks and my big girl just received her 2nd distemper shot. She gets the final distemper shot in for weeks - I think the bordatella vaccine too. I plan to let her socialize with the dogs in our complex when the vet gives the green light and she's been spayed.

There is a dog park not too far from me, and the dogs seem well cared for, and MOST people are good about picking up poop, but I hear you about the risk of disease from any scat lying around. I have seen everything from Irish wolfhounds to papillons there.

Thanks again!


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Mikki said:


> Where is this wonderful 55+ community?


I don't want to be any more specific than say Southern California. The reason is I was being stalked by someone on the Internet on a different forum with nefarious intentions. It was not pleasant and I don't want to repeat it.

Ricky's Popi


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## pting619 (Jul 18, 2018)

I’m not sure about dog parks. When I took Jessie when she was about 3 months old, the little dogs ran across the yard to meet her...she was so intimated that she was trying to climb up my leg to get away. I thought this was how you socialize your dog, but it had a negative effect. When we go for walks and approach other dogs, she acts aggressive, but as soon as we get real close, she is climbing up my legs. Jessie is now 1 1/2 yrs old and is fine with neighbor hood dogs she knows....but still uses the aggressive/then run approach with all other dogs. I’ve been told she needs more socializing but how do you go about that with her attitude. I think the dog park at her young age caused her to be afraid rather than comfortable with other dogs. How do I correct this now?


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

I would consult a professional if I were you. I think she's still young enough to recover. Good luck!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/...et-your-dog-tell-you-if-they-want-go-dog-park


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

I am no longer a dog park person. A terrible strain of kennel cough started at the dog park close to our house. My vet warned me not to go there. Somehow, it was traced to that park. It is a beautiful park.

When I used to go with my previous dog, I would talk to the other dog parents and ask them about their dog. What I found out was that many of the people had just adopted their dog from a shelter(like today) and thought they'd stop at the dog park on the way home. I was appalled to hear that someone who bring their new dog of unknown temperament to socialize with strange dogs off leash.

I kept hearing the same stuff over and over again. We stopped going before the vet warned us. I was not surprised to hear of the kennel cough problem. Never again.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

If you're just joining this thread, you may want to read the original article (link in post #1) and the reaction article (link in post #50). Much food for thought!


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