# Chondrodysplasia – is requesting a vet check from a breeder worthwhile?



## smemft (Feb 22, 2017)

Would it be worthwhile or helpful to request a letter from a breeder's veterinarian stating that in his/her opinion, there are no signs of chondrodysplasia in a dam or sire at the time of the vet visit (assuming that a veterinarian might even be willing to provide something like that)?

Is there a minimum age in a Havanese where chondrodysplasia can be detected? Is there a period of time/ age where chondrodysplasia typically becomes evident in a Havanese? Is there a maximum age, meaning that if a Hav hasn't developed chondrodysplasia by a certain age, that it would be unlikely that it will develop it at all after that age?

Are there any other precautions one could take other than an evaluation by a Veterinary Specialist in Orthopedics?

Is PennHIP health testing, typically performed by a Veterinary Specialist in Orthopedics or a regular veterinarian? If the PennHIP is completed by a Veterinary Specialist in Orthopedics, would that provide an opportunity to request an examination chondrodysplasia at the same time?

- - -

I have read the posts on this forum regarding Chondrodysplasia, including:

"&#8230;The most accurate and reliable method of diagnosing CD is by radiograph (x-ray) of the affected limb(s), or by bone biopsy of the growth plate. The x-ray should be reviewed by a by a qualified Orthopedic Veterinary Specialist.

A Veterinary Specialist in Orthopedics is the only professional that is qualified to "certify" a dog as CD-free. At this time there is no specific diagnostic evaluation for CD. The OFA does not recognize a specific x-ray protocol to identify CD in Havanese dogs.

While "soaping", (the process of lathering up your dog to see what is under the coat), is a great tool used by many breeders to evaluate the front and rear legs and structure of their dogs, it is not a reliable tool for diagnosing CD! Soaping can be very subjective, since the results lie in "the eye of the beholder", and mild cases of CD can go unnoticed by even the most experienced breeder&#8230;."

http://www.havaneseforum.com/10-health-issues-questions/8047-cd-need-some-advice-2.html

- - -

I found this website which seems to be thorough in explaining what to look for in soaped pictures:

Chondrodysplasia in Havanese

This is the first part (page one of the same post, but I put page two first since it provides an analysis of soaped pictures):

Chondrodysplasia in Havanese

Albeit, this is not an official, empirical resource and it is posted by a breeder, it does seem to provide detailed information.

I had requested soaped pictures from my breeder, but after reading this, I became more confused than when I started, and realized that I am in way over my head to even attempt decipher the soaped pictures.

- - -
I read this study, and although this was a small sample size, it still seems as if it might provide an indicator that it is an issue for concern amongst Havanese:

"&#8230;The initial screen involved the collection of detailed phenotypic data on 122 Havanese&#8230;."

https://academic.oup.com/jhered/art...tion-of-Multiple-Developmental?searchresult=1

Abstract
The Havanese is a toy breed that presents with a wide range of developmental abnormalities. Skeletal defects, particularly osteochondrodysplasia (OCD), are the most frequently observed anomalies. Cataracts, liver shunts, heart murmurs, and missing incisors are also common in this breed. Estimates of heritability and complex segregation analyses were carried out to evaluate modes of transmission for these abnormalities. A moderate heritability was identified and evidence for a single major locus was found. Novel statistical analysis methods were used to identify four traits that co-segregate: cataracts, hepatic abnormalities, OCD, and cardiac abnormalities. A canine-specific microarray was used to identify changes in gene expression in the liver that accompany the aforementioned developmental problems. One hundred and thirteen genes were found to be differentially regulated in the Havanese.

"&#8230;Abnormalities of the forelegs occurred most frequently with 44% of the population having bowed, shortened, or asymmetric forelegs&#8230;."

- - -
PetMD also had some helpful information:
Bone Deformity and Dwarfism in Dogs | petMD

- - -

This indicates that a veterinarian can provide some type of role in diagnosing chondrodysplasia:

"&#8230;If your Hav appears to have a 'crooked' front, your veterinarian will need to examine him to make a diagnosis. X-rays may be taken to confirm the diagnosis and to ensure there are no other abnormalities that require treatment&#8230;."

https://www.havanese.org/education/new-owners/78-havanese-health-issues

and so does this:
"&#8230;Your veterinarian will make this diagnosis based on your dog's physical appearance; x-rays may be taken to confirm the diagnosis, or to screen puppies less than 13 weeks of age for this condition&#8230;"

Osteochondrodysplasia - skeletal dwarfism | University of Prince Edward Island

- - -

I also found some information on Facebook posted by a breeder stating that when a puppy is eight-weeks-old, that it is a period of time during puppyhood which is representative and most similar for forecasting adulthood for the purposes of detecting chondrodysplasia. Does anyone know if there is any validity to that? I can't find the link to that at this moment but will post it if I find it again.

Any information or insights would be most appreciated.


----------



## smemft (Feb 22, 2017)

One more tidbit:

I was looking into DNA testing at Optimal Selection? | Wisdom Panel

and saw that this test screened for:

Chondrodysplasia; mutation originally found in Norwegian Elkhound and Karelian Bear Dog

and

Osteochondrodysplasia; mutation originally found in Miniature Poodle

I called and spoke to a helpful woman at Wisdom Panel, she put me on hold and consulted with one of the veterinarians there. When she returned I was told that their trait testing, includes a screen/test for the FGF4 (Fibroblast Growth Factor 4) gene which is an indicator of chondrodysplasia in other breeds (meaning in addition to those stated above).

I found some further research by Kyöstilä K1, Lappalainen AK, Lohi H.

Abstract:
The skeletal dysplasias are disorders of the bone and cartilage tissues. Similarly to humans, several dog breeds have been reported to suffer from different types of genetic skeletal disorders. We have studied the molecular genetic background of an autosomal recessive chondrodysplasia that affects the Norwegian Elkhound and Karelian Bear Dog breeds. The affected dogs suffer from disproportionate short stature dwarfism of varying severity. Through a genome-wide approach, we mapped the chondrodysplasia locus to a 2-Mb region on canine chromosome 17 in nine affected and nine healthy Elkhounds (praw = 7.42×10(-6), pgenome-wide = 0.013). The associated locus contained a promising candidate gene, cartilage specific integrin alpha 10 (ITGA10), and mutation screening of its 30 exons revealed a nonsense mutation in exon 16 (c.2083C>T; p.Arg695*) that segregated fully with the disease in both breeds (p = 2.5×10(-23)). A 24% mutation carrier frequency was indicated in NEs and an 8% frequency in KBDs. The ITGA10 gene product, integrin receptor α10-subunit combines into a collagen-binding α10β1 integrin receptor, which is expressed in cartilage chondrocytes and mediates chondrocyte-matrix interactions during endochondral ossification. As a consequence of the *nonsense mutation, the α10-protein was not detected in the affected cartilage tissue. The canine phenotype highlights the importance of the α10β1 integrin in bone growth, and the large animal model could be utilized to further delineate its specific functions. Finally, this study revealed a candidate gene for human chondrodysplasias and enabled the development of a genetic test for breeding purposes to eradicate the disease from the two dog breeds.

Rest of the journal article is here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3783422/

This is all becoming an overwhelming jumble of information for me.

It seems that there are many unknowns and much to learn regarding this extremely complicated issue. I was just attempting to wade through some of this to see if there was something I could find to help me to become better informed in the process of selecting a puppy to adopt, and hopefully increase my chances of avoiding this.


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I wouldn't expect even the majority of vets to be able to tell you. I would hope that the majority of breeders have bred away from it by now.

The trouble with the FGF4 gene is that there is a doubling up of genes in one location that pushes other genes out of their normal places. That's where any extra health issues come from.

The main thing is that your breeder understands what to look for, and which individuals to breed away from. A show record should have no effect on this at all.

I invented "soaping" in the late '90s. It's not easy for a lot of people to do. You need two experienced people, and a good camera. Nike has examples of good soaped pictures on her web page. This is a dog that does not have CD without question:
Nikepage It is possible to make a bad dog look better than they really are, but not possible to make a good dog look bad. Sometimes it might take an experienced eye to tell if they are looking at an affected dog.

Almost anyone can put their hands on the front legs and tell if they are straight or not.

Unless you are a breeder, you are overthinking it. Just find a breeder you feel good about.


----------



## smemft (Feb 22, 2017)

I really appreciate this information, especially the example to look at; thank you. And what a helpful contribution (soaping); smart! I am not a breeder, just looking to adopt.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

As you probably know from my sig., Tom and Pam King are the breeders of two of my dogs, and the people who have taught me the most about this breed, though I have added to that knowledge by continuing to read and learn as much as I can from many sources.

As you have seen, there is still a lot we don't know about CD. The articles you cite are over 10 years old, and things have changed significantly for the better in that time AS LONG AS you buy from a reputable breeder. There are still a lot of CD dogs out there... partly because Havanese, even those with CD, have a longer life expectancy than many breeds. So many of the obvious CD dogs I see are older. I DO still see younger CD dogs, but they are from back yard breeders or are puppy mill (pet store or shelter/rescue) dogs.

8-9 years ago, when I was looking for my first Havanese, this problem was big. I specifically wanted a dog for sport, so it was CRITICALLY important to me that I get a dog with sound conformation and suitable temperament. I come from a background of training horses and working on a large breeding farm, so am well aware of how important these factors are in a performance animal. Flaws that you can live with in a pet are just not acceptable in a working dog. So I have been much pickier than your average Havanese buyer... probably pickier than many people looking for a conformation show dog. 

I chose a breeder, THEN, with their help, narrowed down to a specific puppy. Over the course of a year, I narrowed my breeder choices down to two people. I ended up going with the Kings for two reasons. The very knowledgeable answers Tom gave to people here on the forum (and that Pam gave me when we talked on the phone) and that they were also the breeders of high quality sport horses. They know conformation and its impact on performance and soundness better than any other breeders I have met, even in the intervening years. That is not at all to say they are the only people producing quality dogs... there are lots of breeders who do. But their knowledge of conformation as it relates to function, not only as it relates to the breed standard, was really exceptional.

There are soaps of both of Kodi's parents on the Starborn website, so I knew they were straight. When I went down to meet Kodi's litter and make a final decision (I ended up leaving with a different puppy than the Kings had originally "earmarked" for me, because it was "love at first sight" for both of us ) Pam soaped Kodi for me, and we went over his structure together. When I got Pixel, it was a similar process. Pam and I worked closely to decide what puppy would be the best for me, and that included soaps of the parents (same sire as Kodi, but a different bitch) and soaping the puppies at 8 weeks. 

My third dog, Panda, came from a local friend, and because of what I had learned from the Kings, I felt that I could assess the puppy's conformation myself. I did not have soaps available for the parents, but I had had my hands on the sire, and I trusted my friend that the dam was straight. (I never got a chance to meet her, as she was leased, and returned to her owner the day before I first saw the litter. I went down to help temperament test this litter, and help soaping them too, right at 8 weeks. I wasn't looking for another puppy at the time, but was SO impressed with Panda both in terms of temperament and structure that she "followed me home". 

If the breeder you choose can't provide soaps of the parents and the puppy you are interested in, and you don't feel comfortable determining straight legs on the puppy, most breeders want you to have the puppy checked by your local vet within a couple of days of getting the puppy home anyway. So ask the vet to help you determine whether the puppy is straight. While CD mostly affects the front limbs, IMO, it's just as important for the dog to have a correct rear end assembly. 

Also remember that it depends a lot on what you are planning to do with the dog. A dog can have a less than perfect front, NOT have CD, and be a perfectly fine pet prospect, but you might not want that animal pounding over jumps continually, the way a dog who is a regular agility competitor would need to. With horses, when a vet is doing a "pre-purchase" (soundness) exam, they ALWAYS want to know the intended use of the animal. A horse that will just be used for pleasure riding can do just fine with conformation flaws that would put a horse slated for the grand prix jumper ring right out of the running. 

So I guess the bottom line is, I wouldn't worry a lot about CD specifically if you are working with a reputable, experienced breeder. I would still take a look at the parents' and the puppy's conformation with an eye to what you plan to do with the dog. And talk to your breeder about those plans! But if this is the reason you want DNA testing on the parents... Don't bother. We STILL don't have a genetic marker for CD in Havanese.


----------



## smemft (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> As you probably know from my sig., Tom and Pam King are the breeders of two of my dogs, and the people who have taught me the most about this breed, though I have added to that knowledge by continuing to read and learn as much as I can from many sources.
> 
> As you have seen, there is still a lot we don't know about CD. The articles you cite are over 10 years old, and things have changed significantly for the better in that time AS LONG AS you buy from a reputable breeder. There are still a lot of CD dogs out there... partly because Havanese, even those with CD, have a longer life expectancy than many breeds. So many of the obvious CD dogs I see are older. I DO still see younger CD dogs, but they are from back yard breeders or are puppy mill (pet store or shelter/rescue) dogs.
> 
> ...


- - -

I had read about the prevalence of CD in Havanese-it seemed REALLY high-and there seemed to be no testing for it aside from the specialist referred to above.

I am only seeking pets and their activity would pretty much consist of indoor play (I have hardwood floors and stairs though), outdoor play, and regular walks on the beach (when they are older). I bike a lot (4-5 times per week; up to four-hour rides sometimes) and I am moving to the ocean in around a month. I have started doing research to look into any potential possibilities for a safe way to bring my future Hav/s along with me for a bike ride on the beach. Riding on the sand is much more difficult of course than the rides on the paved trail that I use now, so my bike rides will surely be cut way down in duration.

I just want to take all of the precautions that I can to try to get healthy dogs. From what I had read, it seemed as if there wasn't much treatment, if any, for CD and it sounded like there might be a possibility of walks consisting of stroller use in the unfortunate event of a more severe case.

I had read that hardwood floors can be tough on a dog's hips with all of the sliding also. On one of my Havanese Facebook pages that I follow, someone had posted a video where a breeder was encouraging the pups to climb the stairs. In response, another person had left some negative commentary stating that pups that young should not be climbing stairs, not as a safety concern, but rather due to undeveloped hind legs or something of that nature?

Other than the additional complexity of getting my son into private school, this research and preparation for my future Hav babies is really getting into the realm of becoming comparable to that of my son's arrival and rearing. Oh no...PLEASE tell me that getting a skilled dog trainer is not as difficult as getting a child into private school!!!!

I am a psychotherapist and just recently, momentarily pondered MAYBE going through the process of the training for a therapy dog and just dabbled into a little research on that a few days ago. If that process is even private school"ish"...FORGET IT!!! I think that I might be too old for all of that again.

Just as a sidebar: In the hopes of thwarting any, further, potential negative commentary towards me, I am NOT seeking to adopt my future Havs with anywhere near a primary purpose of becoming therapy dogs. I don't work with children anymore, only adults. Not that a therapy dog wouldn't be extremely therapeutic to adult populations as well, such as trauma work and seniors. The therapy dog route was NOT an intention in my initial inquiry...it has only recently become a highly unlikely "maybe."

Again, I am deeply appreciative that you have taken the time out of your day to provide such a detailed, informative, and educational response; thank you.

0


----------



## smemft (Feb 22, 2017)

One more thing, have you ever seen that Bing search engine overload commercial? That is what I feel like with all of this Havanese information. I have these HUGE pieces of paper with dog genealogies and health tests (and gaps) of their lineages for dams and sires I am considering. I think that my psychotherapist friends might be staging a Hav intervention:






(sorry there is an ad, but you can skip over after 4-5 seconds)


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I have NO idea why you would think that wanting a dog to do therapy work would draw negative comments... Nor do I know what other negative comments have been made to/about you. We tend to really do our best to be positive and helpful here. 

I know many, MANY people who have certified therapy dogs, including many people with Havanese. (including a number of people on the forum) Dogs with the right temperament (and that is, again, something you'd want to talk to your breeder about) LOVE their work. Not all therapy dogs enjoy the same KIND of therapy work... I have a friend with Great Danes, and her dogs work as "reading dogs" at the library, and allow kids to lean against them as they read... wouldn't work well with a Havanese.  OTOH, I know a number of Havanese that work as therapy dogs in nursing homes and rehabs. After seeing Kodi with our elderly relatives, I think he'd really like doing that. But we're too busy with training and competition these days... Maybe when he retires!  We also have a gal on the forum with a half-Havanese who accompanies her to work every day as a SLP. Ollie helps her with her students! I didn't CHOOSE my dogs looking for "therapy dog" temperaments, but I know that there have been several puppies in litters I've seen at the King's that Pam has said, "I think he'd make a great therapy dog!". Same is true in litters bred by friends around here. I think there are more Havanese that would make good therapy dogs than not, actually. 

Yes, you want to be careful of too much wildness on hardwood floors, but all three of mine have grown up on hardwood floors, and tile in the kitchen, and none of them have any hip problems. I would not encourage a young Havanese puppy to go up or down stairs by themselves. Likewise, you want to be VERY careful not to let them jump off of anything they can't get ONTO by themselves. It is true that concussion from jumping can damage the growth plates... Which can lead to limb deformities that can look a lot like CD. (but aren't) So you DO want to be careful of developing bones. OTOH, they are not made of china. And they ARE playful puppies. You want to be careful not to stress developing joints, but not freak out every time one bounces over a log in the back yard or on and off the couch. When it comes to stairs, I kept mine gated off, so they weren't on the stairs without me there to supervise. They should be confined when you aren't closely supervising them anyway as puppies!  Very careful learning to go up and then learning to go down. Never allowed to rough-house or wildness on the stairs.

The prevalence of CD at one time WAS much too high, though the sample size in that study was fairly small as well, so I'm not convinced that the percentages started were accurate for the entire breed. But all good breeders are well aware of the problem, and have worked hard to remove it from the gene pool. But as I posted before, while I don't want a dog with CD, I also don't want a dog with OTHER limb abnormalities... CD or not. There are no absolute guaranties when you re dealing with living creatures, whether it's a puppy or a child. All of us do our very best to produce healthy children, and sometimes things STILL go wrong. That is true with puppies too. So no breeder can absolutely guarantee you that nothing bad will happen to your puppy. What you DO want to know is that your breeder will stand behind that puppy, and help you. Whether it is with medical bills in the case of a genetic defect, or with advice and a shoulder to cry on when it's an accident or something that "just happens" with your puppy or dog. 

As far as bike riding is concerned, I know there are baskets that can go on a bike and hold one SMALL Havanese, but not two. The only thing I know of that will hold more than one are the "bike trailers". And I have NO idea how hard they would be to tow through sand (or if it were even possible) You'll have to report back to us on your research on that!


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

smemft said:


> One more thing, have you ever seen that Bing search engine overload commercial? That is what I feel like with all of this Havanese information. I have these HUGE pieces of paper with dog genealogies and health tests (and gaps) of their lineages for dams and sires I am considering. I think that my psychotherapist friends might be staging a Hav intervention:
> 
> All Bing search overload commercials - YouTube
> 
> (sorry there is an ad, but you can skip over after 4-5 seconds)


ound: I think *WE* need to do an intervention!!!


----------



## smemft (Feb 22, 2017)

*Rehab for my "Havanese Syndrome"...*



krandall said:


> ound: I think *WE* need to do an intervention!!!


Ha ha!!! I actually did laugh out loud on that one!!!! This may actually need to happen since it seems possible that I might not have any friends left if I don't get a puppy in the foreseeable future. Most are really tired of hearing all of my Havanese talk...thank goodness for the forum!

And who knows, things could escalate after the move and I have a more time. If I pull out of this, perhaps I might open a Havanese rehab as I surely cannot be the only one. Imagine the irony of having a Havanese therapy dog at a Havanese rehab?!?!

I must return to the crucial business of researching crates. Now if you would just write a Havenese book, think of all of the Havanese Syndrome you might spare people from?! All you would need is to print out all of your forum posts and have someone categorize them by subject matter...seriously.

:help:

:banplease:

:flypig:


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

smemft said:


> Ha ha!!! I actually did laugh out loud on that one!!!! This may actually need to happen since it seems possible that I might not have any friends left if I don't get a puppy in the foreseeable future. Most are really tired of hearing all of my Havanese talk...thank goodness for the forum!
> 
> And who knows, things could escalate after the move and I have a more time. If I pull out of this, perhaps I might open a Havanese rehab as I surely cannot be the only one. Imagine the irony of having a Havanese therapy dog at a Havanese rehab?!?!
> 
> ...


Ha!!! After recently finishing a book, (on the shelves since March) on a completely different subject, the LAST thing I want to do is sit down and write another book!!!

But I TOTALLY understand your need to research when learning about something new. And it's certainly not a bad thing... WAY preferrable to impulse purchases! But keep things in perspective. ESPECIALLY internet research. (Or worse, many FB groups). You can make yourself crazy. I really think that finding a breeder/mentor would help you a lot.


----------



## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

smemft said:


> I am a psychotherapist and just recently, momentarily pondered MAYBE going through the process of the training for a therapy dog and just dabbled into a little research on that a few days ago. If that process is even private school"ish"...FORGET IT!!! I think that I might be too old for all of that again.
> 
> Just as a sidebar: In the hopes of thwarting any, further, potential negative commentary towards me, I am NOT seeking to adopt my future Havs with anywhere near a primary purpose of becoming therapy dogs. I don't work with children anymore, only adults. Not that a therapy dog wouldn't be extremely therapeutic to adult populations as well, such as trauma work and seniors. The therapy dog route was NOT an intention in my initial inquiry...it has only recently become a highly unlikely "maybe."


I have a dream of Shama becoming a therapy dog because I think elderly people who used to own little fluffy dogs might enjoy watching Shama do her tricks and brushing her and running their fingers through her hair, so I've done some (only a small amount so far) research on it (at the websites of two organizations). One thing that surprised me was reading somewhere that the insurance provided through the organization does NOT cover dogs who accompany their owners to their jobs. It only covers dogs going on therapy dog visits to nursing homes, hospitals, etc.

I think you'll find that the process of training a dog for therapy work is not private schoolish. I think most organizations want more therapy dogs to get out there and help those in need. You just need a reasonably well behaved dog. Related to therapy dog certification (in my mind at least) is Canine Good Citizen certification. We'll be testing for that in May. I expect we'll fail, however, because the dog is required to sit/lie calmly with a stranger while her owner is OUT OF SIGHT for three whole minutes. Do you know how long three minutes is? I don't, actually, because I can't make it 10 seconds without Shama barking for me to return! She's totally fine when I'm in view but does not like it when I vanish. Oh well, we're working on it. A classmate told me her first dog didn't manage to pass that part of the test until she was six years old. I think she was trying to comfort me, but it didn't work!

Anyway, I think you could keep the therapy dog dream alive. It could be on the back burner, however, because there would be no rush and because nearly everything you'd be doing to raise well-behaved dogs would lend itself to therapy work anyway. (One of the first things a trainer told me is that Shama must keep all four feet on the floor when a person reaches down to pet her, or she'll fail the test. She's learned that. We only pet her in her ex pen and lift her out of her ex pen if she's calm and quiet and all four feet on the floor.)


----------



## smemft (Feb 22, 2017)

*Thank you for the therapy dog info...*



ShamaMama said:


> I have a dream of Shama becoming a therapy dog because I think elderly people who used to own little fluffy dogs might enjoy watching Shama do her tricks and brushing her and running their fingers through her hair, so I've done some (only a small amount so far) research on it (at the websites of two organizations). One thing that surprised me was reading somewhere that the insurance provided through the organization does NOT cover dogs who accompany their owners to their jobs. It only covers dogs going on therapy dog visits to nursing homes, hospitals, etc.
> 
> I think you'll find that the process of training a dog for therapy work is not private schoolish. I think most organizations want more therapy dogs to get out there and help those in need. You just need a reasonably well behaved dog. Related to therapy dog certification (in my mind at least) is Canine Good Citizen certification. We'll be testing for that in May. I expect we'll fail, however, because the dog is required to sit/lie calmly with a stranger while her owner is OUT OF SIGHT for three whole minutes. Do you know how long three minutes is? I don't, actually, because I can't make it 10 seconds without Shama barking for me to return! She's totally fine when I'm in view but does not like it when I vanish. Oh well, we're working on it. A classmate told me her first dog didn't manage to pass that part of the test until she was six years old. I think she was trying to comfort me, but it didn't work!
> 
> Anyway, I think you could keep the therapy dog dream alive. It could be on the back burner, however, because there would be no rush and because nearly everything you'd be doing to raise well-behaved dogs would lend itself to therapy work anyway. (One of the first things a trainer told me is that Shama must keep all four feet on the floor when a person reaches down to pet her, or she'll fail the test. She's learned that. We only pet her in her ex pen and lift her out of her ex pen if she's calm and quiet and all four feet on the floor.)


- - -

I thank you for kindly taking the time to post such a thoughtful and informative response. I saw some literature one of the tasks to achieve the first level of therapy dog training and info regarding the number of site visits required:

How To Earn Title - American Kennel Club

If I were to decide to attempt this, I would likely take him or her to senior centers for the site visits. I have done quite a bit of specialized work with seniors in the past and they are one of my favorite populations to work with. I ended up linked from the AKC website to a list of qualified trainers for therapy dogs (can't find it right now) and there was only one in the area where I am moving next month, so that's where I thought, "Oh no, here goes the private school'ish' thing again...NO WAY!"

It is going to be quite an undertaking just for me to get basic training down :fear:


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

smemft said:


> - - -
> 
> I thank you for kindly taking the time to post such a thoughtful and informative response. I saw some literature one of the tasks to achieve the first level of therapy dog training and info regarding the number of site visits required:
> 
> ...


AKC is trying to get on every band wagon now, and suck money out of everyone who wants a "title" in anything for their dog. All the CGC stuff leads to titles now, trick dog, nose work, "farm dog" titles... you name it. If some one thinks up a sport, AKC wants a part of it. Don't get me wrong, I like titles as much as the next person. (Look at Kodi's string!  ). I just am a bit irritated with AKC allowing/encouraging people to pay for titles for minimal achievements, or for things where they've already achieved a title from another organization. They just want your money. (When you get your title in whatever, then they send you "offers" to purchase expensive "commemorative medalions" too. )

You do not need ANY of these AKC titles to be a therapy dog. There are a couple of old, well established therapy dog groups. The one I am most familiar with is TDI. (Therapy Dog International) They do have a test the dog must pass. Part of it is the same as the AKC CGC, but it also includes things like walking quietly among walkers, wheel chairs, and most importantly, not eating things found on the floor. (to keep dogs safe from dropped meds)

So don't feel you need to limit yourself to AKC. Unless you WANT to do the titles (which, to me, for therapy dogs, look like it's just a matter of racking up hours) you don't need AKC at all to do therapy dog work. Again, it's FINE if you want to do it, but you don't have to.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Yeah, just read the whole thing. This doesn't even qualify you as a certified therapy dog. You have to do this elsewhere. Then to get these titles, you just track your hours and pay your money. No training required at all for the "AKC title" part.

Here's the web site for TDI: http://www.tdi-dog.org
And here's the website for Alliance of Therapy Dogs: https://www.therapydogs.com

These are the organizations you want to get certified with. I know that TDI has strict rules, but they also have insurance that covers you from liability with your therapy dog. I don't know the other organization as well. Most people around hear use TDI. Some choose the other one, because TDI does not allow you to feed a raw diet.


----------



## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Until I read your post, I didn't even know that AKC had a Therapy Dog title. I agree with Karen, that they're just trying to horn in on any action they can. It costs $20 to get your Canine Good Citizen title, and it costs $20 to get your Therapy Dog title, but you can spend $30 to get them both at the same time after being certified by a therapy dog organization.

The two organizations mentioned by Karen are the only two I've researched. I am leaning toward the Alliance only because I've heard that the International group around here is clicky and will cancel visits at the last minute if they determine they don't have enough dogs to make a good "show." If I were in a nursing home, I'd want the visit anyway!

I also recently got a tip about a nursing home in my town that welcomes visits from well-behaved dogs even if they're not yet certified. I've made contact, and Shama and I will be going there to practice prior to testing for therapy dog certification. I imagine there are plenty of people who do "therapy dog" visits to various places even without certification.

Karen, do you have any recommendations as to how to practice "leave it" with things that look like medication but that aren't dangerous? I would like to practice "leave it" with things other than dog treats, because I want Shama to learn that "leave it" means she's actually never going to get it. It seems to me that it would be confusing to a dog if she were told to "leave it" about something she normally can eat and/or something she will eventually be allowed to eat.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

There is a FANTASTIC video on teaching "leave it" and "drop", but I can't find it right now. I'm hoping Dave will see this... I know he has posted it before, and he's MUCH better at keeping track of things than I am!!!


----------



## smemft (Feb 22, 2017)

This is so helpful. You two really are wonderful and I am deeply appreciative to both of you for taking the time to provide your input; thank you. 

Just a quick sidebar on an update: I might have an opportunity for a puppy with a breeder I was in contact with early last year. I'm unsure at this point and it is just a potential possibility. Luckily, I have been purchasing supplies, etc. as I have been reading and researching, so I wouldn't be starting from ground zero as far as preparation goes. I'll definitely be posting when I get a puppy; whenever that occurs. It is not out of the realm of possibility that I might have a puppy in a week or two...exciting but also nerve-wracking. What a roller coaster!!!

:juggle:


----------



## smemft (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> AKC is trying to get on every band wagon now, and suck money out of everyone who wants a "title" in anything for their dog. All the CGC stuff leads to titles now, trick dog, nose work, "farm dog" titles... you name it. If some one thinks up a sport, AKC wants a part of it. Don't get me wrong, I like titles as much as the next person. (Look at Kodi's string!  ). I just am a bit irritated with AKC allowing/encouraging people to pay for titles for minimal achievements, or for things where they've already achieved a title from another organization. They just want your money. (When you get your title in whatever, then they send you "offers" to purchase expensive "commemorative medalions" too. )
> 
> You do not need ANY of these AKC titles to be a therapy dog. There are a couple of old, well established therapy dog groups. The one I am most familiar with is TDI. (Therapy Dog International) They do have a test the dog must pass. Part of it is the same as the AKC CGC, but it also includes things like walking quietly among walkers, wheel chairs, and most importantly, not eating things found on the floor. (to keep dogs safe from dropped meds)
> 
> So don't feel you need to limit yourself to AKC. Unless you WANT to do the titles (which, to me, for therapy dogs, look like it's just a matter of racking up hours) you don't need AKC at all to do therapy dog work. Again, it's FINE if you want to do it, but you don't have to.


- - -

Accumulating titles "just because" is definitely not my cup of tea. If I were to decide to go the therapy dog route, and this is a highly unlikely "maybe," I would approach credentials/titles from the paradigm of serving a functional purpose to meet ethical and legal requirements for both a therapy dog association and my profession. I have additional duties and considerations as a psychotherapist if I were to provide an option to incorporate a therapy dog during psychotherapy sessions with clients. I would need to check with my malpractice insurance also...lots of extra work...and would want to consult with colleagues in the area to investigate the viability of a demand for this. This is a really interesting possibility, but WOW, seems a bit daunting.

Wondering how one would even evaluate if a Havanese has the disposition/characteristics to be a therapy dog just popped into my head but I am going to resist the impulse to research that! Seeking a therapy dog would definitely not be additional criteria I would pose to a breeder while seeking a puppy, as I am having a difficult enough time as it is. I would be more apt to take a "laissez faire" approach and if it worked out-it would-and if it didn't-it wouldn't-and let the circumstances that unfold influence the direction.

lane:


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

smemft said:


> This is so helpful. You two really are wonderful and I am deeply appreciative to both of you for taking the time to provide your input; thank you.
> 
> Just a quick sidebar on an update: I might have an opportunity for a puppy with a breeder I was in contact with early last year. I'm unsure at this point and it is just a potential possibility. Luckily, I have been purchasing supplies, etc. as I have been reading and researching, so I wouldn't be starting from ground zero as far as preparation goes. I'll definitely be posting when I get a puppy; whenever that occurs. It is not out of the realm of possibility that I might have a puppy in a week or two...exciting but also nerve-wracking. What a roller coaster!!!
> 
> :juggle:


How exciting! I did a lot of early-buying with my first two also. But I also remember when I was on bed rest with my older son. The nurses told my (laughing) that many babies do just fine sleeping in a bureau drawer in the beginning. :laugh: You can certinaly get by for a few days with a lot less than a full "puppy layette"!


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

havanese Re a companion breed, and more, eventually, would be suitable as therapy dogs than not. But a calm, quiet, people-oriented, "couch potato" puppy would be more what you would look for than a drivey, performance-oriented puppy. But I think, from what you've said, that that is pretty much what you'd be looking for anyway.


----------

