# Bones



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

""Raw bones are the best thing you can provide for your dog's oral health, but some are more
problematic than others.
You can save quite a bit of money by buying bones from your local grocery store or butcher as
well. Turkey and chicken necks, chicken wings and leg quarters, beef, lamb and pork neck bones
or ribs, lamb and veal shanks and oxtails are all suitable options. These are more or less
consumable, depending on how aggressive of a chewer a dog is.
You can also give recreational bones that are not fully consumable, for example beef or sheep
knuckle bones, but please do not give the tube shaped or sliced middle parts, "marrow bones"
that have the knuckles already removed, like those sold at grocery stores:
The fact that these bones are weight bearing affects the texture of the bone, and the older the
source animal is, the longer and heavier the weight compressing the bone matrix. I'm sure you
have heard of this before when learning that broken bones in young humans and animals heal
much faster than in adults, so it's not exaggerated when I'm telling you that these center parts of
marrow bones are the hardest, most durable bones in the body.
Extremely hard bones like that wear down the teeth and can easily cause slab fractures. An
added problem with sliced, "o-shaped" marrow bones is that they can get stuck in the jaw very
easily. There are much better, safer options available, and the joint knuckles of these large bones
are a great example.
Even wild wolves and African wild dogs (two species who hunt and kill large prey animals) were
observed to only chew off the ends of these bones[1] - their teeth guarantee their survival and
broken ones put them at a disadvantage."
[1] Source: "Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health", Tom Lonsdale, DMV: pp 324 and 325


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> ""Raw bones are the best thing you can provide for your dog's oral health, but some are more
> problematic than others.


Dave, do you understand why vets are often (usually?) SO antagonistic to the idea of raw bones (or indeed a raw diet generally)? The only bone disaster I personally know of (and I realise how incredibly uninteresting anecdote is, but this one is not what most people would expect) was a Weimeraner choking on a Nylabone and very nearly dying. Yet vets, on the whole, would be far happier to recommend a Nylabone....I've given up on raw not because I disagree with it but because neither of my dogs will touch it. My first dog LOVED raw chicken wings, but these two won't even look at them. My vet goes on about the bacteria in raw and how dangerous it is....I do find it (as does Tom Lonsdale) extraordinary that vet practices are allowed to display and sell dog-food brands - how, then, are they supposed to give unbiased advice about food? In the UK (not sure about anywhere else) dog-food manufacturers target veterinary students with deals for when they graduate that would be entirely unacceptable with any (human) medical student - can you imagine doctors' surgeries displaying particular baby foods, for example! It is SO hard, as an owner just trying to do the right thing, to negotiate one's way through this labyrinth of vested interest and bias, isn't it!


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

I agree with all info posted so far. I give Timmy raw marrow bones, they are cut into small inch or two size, he's not a major chewer so I'm not worried about possible tooth injuries. These bones are buffalo he gets one a week and when I take it away I'll scoop out the marrow which he loves.

My cat's vet sells cat food in her office and displays it also. Both my cats have urinary crystals so they are conveniently on a prescription diet that I get from her, I'm not sure about the quality but it's a major brand name. I've often thought about switching them over to something else but they are happy eating this and they are really picky. My one cat has epilepsy, and even though I think I like Timmy's vet better my cat's vet is so great with Zuzu and she knows her history, plus is two minutes away and I can board her when I need to. I did try to switch my cats over to raw a while back and they did not do well on it, throwing up and diarrhea.

Timmy is obviously on a raw diet, I use a different vet for him because my cats go to a cat only place. Timmy's vet is a holistic vet and she strongly recommends a raw diet, but also sells food too, plus a bunch of holistic remedy stuff. I agree that these companies shouldn't be able to distribute/display their food at the vet's office, but they are both businesses and bottom line is everyone wants to make a buck. I do wonder however what the kick back is for the vets that do this and it seems like most do. Tim's vet is an animal chiropractor does acupuncture, reiki, Chinese herbology, about as holistic as they come, she's never pushed any of her food products on us even when Timmy started going there as a puppy. I did hear about pet food companies romancing vet students, I guess they pay for part of their schooling after they graduate and sell their food? How about the drug companies romancing our doctors? I know that's a whole different discussion though. I'd hate to think our doctors and vets are making decisions based on companies coming in and giving them deals to push their products.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

jabojenny said:


> I'd hate to think our doctors and vets are making decisions based on companies coming in and giving them deals to push their products.


Ugh, yes, SO agree; try reading Ben Goldacre's 'Bad Pharma' (brilliant book) if you really want your hair to curl! The whole industry built around producing low protein diets for dogs and cats with kidney problems is based on historical hearsay and zero evidence - and that'll probably start another onslaught of disagreement, but there is a mass of accumulated scientific data out there now to support what might sound like heresy. Yes, people are in business to make money, and food manufacturers, if they can get away with it, will try and influence vets to try and influence pet owners. Vets who stock these products but don't try and push them on their patients are at least making a bit of a stand, but it is still a pretty sorry situation that health professionals should be snuggled up with people who are producing products that are arguably often part of the cause of the animal being at the veterinary practice in the first place! Just having these products on display in a surgery must surely influence those people who don't actually find out that the vet him/herself wouldn't necessarily advocate that product.


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## Ruth4Havs (May 13, 2013)

We gave Chester cooked steak bones, until we found out only raw is safe. Cooked bone is no harm for him but he loves both anyway.:hungry:


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Lalla said:


> Dave, do you understand why vets are often (usually?) SO antagonistic to the idea of raw bones (or indeed a raw diet generally)? The only bone disaster I personally know of (and I realise how incredibly uninteresting anecdote is, but this one is not what most people would expect) was a Weimeraner choking on a Nylabone and very nearly dying. Yet vets, on the whole, would be far happier to recommend a Nylabone....I've given up on raw not because I disagree with it but because neither of my dogs will touch it. My first dog LOVED raw chicken wings, but these two won't even look at them. My vet goes on about the bacteria in raw and how dangerous it is....I do find it (as does Tom Lonsdale) extraordinary that vet practices are allowed to display and sell dog-food brands - how, then, are they supposed to give unbiased advice about food? In the UK (not sure about anywhere else) dog-food manufacturers target veterinary students with deals for when they graduate that would be entirely unacceptable with any (human) medical student - can you imagine doctors' surgeries displaying particular baby foods, for example! It is SO hard, as an owner just trying to do the right thing, to negotiate one's way through this labyrinth of vested interest and bias, isn't it!


exactly they do not study nutrition in vet school , and they can't sell raw.. .


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Lalla said:


> Ugh, yes, SO agree; try reading Ben Goldacre's 'Bad Pharma' (brilliant book) if you really want your hair to curl! The whole industry built around producing low protein diets for dogs and cats with kidney problems is based on historical hearsay and zero evidence - and that'll probably start another onslaught of disagreement, but there is a mass of accumulated scientific data out there now to support what might sound like heresy. Yes, people are in business to make money, and food manufacturers, if they can get away with it, will try and influence vets to try and influence pet owners. Vets who stock these products but don't try and push them on their patients are at least making a bit of a stand, but it is still a pretty sorry situation that health professionals should be snuggled up with people who are producing products that are arguably often part of the cause of the animal being at the veterinary practice in the first place! Just having these products on display in a surgery must surely influence those people who don't actually find out that the vet him/herself wouldn't necessarily advocate that product.


JUST to show how we're getting led astray by organizations that are influenced by the large dog food companies. here's an article http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...nary-nutritionists-favor-commercial-food.aspx I have no respect for ACVN when they consistently sell their sponsors crappy foods.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

when you look at the two major vet nutritionist orgs. American Academy of Veterinary Nutrition and the American College of Veterinary Nutrition , They both are in the pocket of the pet food industry. Heck, if you look at the websites of the organizations, you'll see they are *sponsored* by the industry


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> exactly they do not study nutrition in vet school , and they can't sell raw.. .


<warning: rant!>

Don't settle for that kind of vet. There are any alternatives. (and there are more and more all the time) Both Missy (Jasper and Cash) and I travel a long way for our vet. She is part of a holistic veterinary practice. While they do sell food in the front office, it is a relatively good one, (Wellness) and they CERTAINLY don't push it on people. I've never even had them mention it to me, even when we've been discussing nutrition. There are people who like having the convenience of being able to pick it up at the vet's office.

Even when she has suggested supplements to me, she has told me that although they carry (some of) them, that you can also get them on line for less money. I see no problem with them charging a "convenience fee" for people who would rather not deal with ordering on-line. In the quantities they order, I'm sure they don't pay much less than retail for these products.

I haven't discussed raw with my vet, because I have my own reasons not to want to use it. (and I know Missy feeds raw) But I HAVE discussed home cooking, and complete DIY vs. using a product like Balance-IT as a base. She was COMPLETELY open to both options, also giving me the names of several other companies that supply base nutrient mix-ins for people who want to step up from manufactured dog food but are not ready to plunge into doing it all from scratch.

I know there are bad vets out there, and there are uneducated vets out there. But I think it's wrong to tar them all with the same brush. I work as an educational advocate for children with special needs. I am ALWAYS sitting on "the other side of the table" from school personnel. I find myself frequently reminding parents that few educators go into the profession with the goal of torturing children. There are some bad teachers, but there are an awful lot of good ones trying to do good work within a flawed system.

Veterinary medicine (and don't get me started on human medicine!) is similar. there are good vets and bad vets, and MOST fall somewhere in between. Support the best ones, and vote on the bad ones with your feet.:focus:


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

jabojenny said:


> I agree with all info posted so far. I give Timmy raw marrow bones, they are cut into small inch or two size, he's not a major chewer so I'm not worried about possible tooth injuries. These bones are buffalo he gets one a week and when I take it away I'll scoop out the marrow which he loves.
> 
> My cat's vet sells cat food in her office and displays it also. Both my cats have urinary crystals so they are conveniently on a prescription diet that I get from her, I'm not sure about the quality but it's a major brand name. I've often thought about switching them over to something else but they are happy eating this and they are really picky. My one cat has epilepsy, and even though I think I like Timmy's vet better my cat's vet is so great with Zuzu and she knows her history, plus is two minutes away and I can board her when I need to. I did try to switch my cats over to raw a while back and they did not do well on it, throwing up and diarrhea.
> 
> Timmy is obviously on a raw diet, I use a different vet for him because my cats go to a cat only place. Timmy's vet is a holistic vet and she strongly recommends a raw diet, but also sells food too, plus a bunch of holistic remedy stuff. I agree that these companies shouldn't be able to distribute/display their food at the vet's office, but they are both businesses and bottom line is everyone wants to make a buck. I do wonder however what the kick back is for the vets that do this and it seems like most do. Tim's vet is an animal chiropractor does acupuncture, reiki, Chinese herbology, about as holistic as they come, she's never pushed any of her food products on us even when Timmy started going there as a puppy. I did hear about pet food companies romancing vet students, I guess they pay for part of their schooling after they graduate and sell their food? How about the drug companies romancing our doctors? I know that's a whole different discussion though. I'd hate to think our doctors and vets are making decisions based on companies coming in and giving them deals to push their products.


yep


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I hear ya Karen, I'm talking about vets that promote their inferior products. Some don't , but I have yet to meet one. I';m not a believer in the top ten philosophy , but many vet clinic foods don't make the top one hundred. That's the problem.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> yep


Oh, I forgot to mention that the food my vet stocks is Wellness. Both kibble and canned. Not a bad food as commercial foods go.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

krandall said:


> Oh, I forgot to mention that the food my vet stocks is Wellness. Both kibble and canned. Not a bad food as commercial foods go.


who says. lol


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> exactly they do not study nutrition in vet school , and they can't sell raw.. .


Of COURSE they can't, how stupid of me; how cynical of them!! I love my vets in many ways, and travel 45 minutes away from my home to get to one I love (I know that's a piffling distance in US terms but in the UK, believe me, that's far!!!) and they were totally brilliant when my first Coton, Pamba, was hideously ill. But they stock pet food and they hate raw, and I'd never thought (I am SO naive) that the vet-anti-raw could be driven by commercial interest. I do actually find it scandalous that vets are allowed to do this. And you are right, too, Dave, that, as I understand it at least in the UK, they get absolutely NO training in nutrition at vet school. Nor, for that matter, do most doctors. And yet our GPs tell us how to eat, and our vets tell us how to feed our pets. If you are brought up to defer to authority it's very difficult to ignore or challenge that sort of advice. I do think that the internet has helped enormously, though, and forums like this one give individuals the support of many, many people that one could not have hoped to meet any other way. When Pamba was diagnosed with Protothecosis my vets (they ARE good on non-diet topics!) put out an APB and heard back immediately from a vet in Melbourne who'd treated 3 dogs with it (about 1 in a million and a half dogs get it, so it is extremely rare) and who helped us hugely. Impossible in pre-internet days.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> ".....Extremely hard bones like that wear down the teeth and can easily cause slab fractures...."


I know the subject of deer antlers has come up elsewhere on this forum and that they are not exactly bones; but they certainly fall into the category of 'extremely hard'. Are they, therefore, likely to cause similar damage, Dave? My dogs loved them but I've taken them away almost instantly because they seem to me to be asking for trouble, or am I wrong?...any thoughts?


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> JUST to show how we're getting led astray by organizations that are influenced by the large dog food companies. here's an article http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...nary-nutritionists-favor-commercial-food.aspx I have no respect for ACVN when they consistently sell their sponsors crappy foods.


Terrifically good article, Dave, thanks; I wish someone would write the same about gluten and grain for humans....


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> I know the subject of deer antlers has come up elsewhere on this forum and that they are not exactly bones; but they certainly fall into the category of 'extremely hard'. Are they, therefore, likely to cause similar damage, Dave? My dogs loved them but I've taken them away almost instantly because they seem to me to be asking for trouble, or am I wrong?...any thoughts?


Some are harder than others. The ones I use (and Kodi MUCH prefers!) are the blade part of moose antlers that have been boiled (which softens them slightly) and then sawed open the flat way, so the interior is exposed. These are soft enough on the inside that you can scratch them with a fingernail.

These are long-lasting, but seem to be very appealing to dogs. The edge they are chewing on seems to become a bit "rubbery" for lack of a better term, so I doubt there is much chance of damage to teeth. Dogs need SOMETHING to chew on, and beef isn't an option for Kodi, as he has a beef sensitivity. The elk horns we've had, OTOH, are VERY hard, and Kodi has shown limited interest in them.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Karen, where do you get the moose antlers? I don't think I've come across them.


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## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

Many older members here know that I only feed raw to my dogs, have been doing it since I got them (2009) & (2011).
My vet almost had a stroke when I told him I feed raw chicken necks. After that first time that I lectured him about raw feeding, he has never tried to change my mind again! 

I do not however, feed larger bones, the biggest I have given them is chicken legs and pork neck which went untouched. For some reason, my guys are not drawn to larger bones. They do eat chicken necks every night though. In the mornings, I feed a mix of meat, organ, bone and veggie.


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

Lalla said:


> Terrifically good article, Dave, thanks; I wish someone would write the same about gluten and grain for humans....


I've been learning about Novak Djokovic's diet. It's very interesting!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Yes, he credits his success to giving up gluten three years ago....I read somewhere that those of us who are seriously gluten-intolerant, or celiac, are the lucky ones, we don't have a choice and are therefore forced to eat the way everyone should try and eat, and are getting a head start because ONE day everyone else will wake up to the health benefits of cutting out this damaging component of most diets that is making humans (and other mammals) fat and ill...


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> Some are harder than others. The ones I use (and Kodi MUCH prefers!) are the blade part of moose antlers that have been boiled (which softens them slightly) and then sawed open the flat way, so the interior is exposed. These are soft enough on the inside that you can scratch them with a fingernail.
> 
> These are long-lasting, but seem to be very appealing to dogs. The edge they are chewing on seems to become a bit "rubbery" for lack of a better term, so I doubt there is much chance of damage to teeth. Dogs need SOMETHING to chew on, and beef isn't an option for Kodi, as he has a beef sensitivity. The elk horns we've had, OTOH, are VERY hard, and Kodi has shown limited interest in them.


That's the trouble with living in the UK, moose are so hard to come by!! They sound a lot less vicious that deer, at least as far as their antlers go. At least I don't have to worry about the lack of English Elk, I guess!! But I think I'll give up on the super-hard deer, I'm worried they'll break a tooth. At the risk of opening another can of worms (is that an American expression? If not, I don't mean literally!!!) what does anyone think of rawhide? There are conflicting opinions here and I've never heard any really good arguments for or against...??


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

according to Sabine,;;;; "They are not weight bearing and are shed and grow back every year (so not super dense like "marrow bones"), so they can be suitable for some dogs"


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## DebW (Jun 11, 2013)

My dog has no interest in the antlers. But he likes the bull horn I bought. Plus, it's cornucopia shape is good for stuffing in treats.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Sheri said:


> Karen, where do you get the moose antlers? I don't think I've come across them.


Most of Kodi's antlers have come from this company:

http://www.acadiaantlers.com/

They are really nice people, and if you contact them directly, you can get the flat blades that Kodi likes so much.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

these look GREAT and resonable prices!! Have you tried any of their other products?
They seem to show the flat ones first, are those the ones Kodi gets? Do they last a long time?? The rope chew looks interesting as well...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TilliesMom said:


> these look GREAT and resonable prices!! Have you tried any of their other products?
> They seem to show the flat ones first, are those the ones Kodi gets? Do they last a long time?? The rope chew looks interesting as well...


He chews on them quite often, and I only recently threw his first one away because it was getting small enough to worry me... He's had it for 2 years.


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## DebW (Jun 11, 2013)

Thanks for posting that Karen. Think I'll try a flat antler. Even soaking it in chicken broth didn't entice Sheldon in the deer antler I bought him. But he is working like mad to get at the piece of freeze dried liver stuck into the end of his bull horn!


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## DebW (Jun 11, 2013)

Actually, I just found out that it's a water buffalo horn, not a bull horn.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Thanks, Karen. I just ordered two to try. Or, rather, for Tucker to try! :yo:


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## DebW (Jun 11, 2013)

I ordered some too! You should ask for a commission.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

DebW said:


> I ordered some too! You should ask for a commission.


Ha! Kodi made out OK. They had a booth set up at a local pet expo, and we stopped by to say, "Hi." They gave Kodi a "freebie" for all his referrals.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Just bought my guys some raw pork ribs and chicken wings. After doing the math, it's much cheaper than buying a box of merrick knee caps!


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## DebW (Jun 11, 2013)

Reporting back on the Acadia antlers experience - I bought a sample of both the flat kind and the piece on the rope.

Like other antlers, Sheldon showed no interest in the flat ones. However, he likes the piece on the rope. It doesn't seem as hard - he's actually chewing through it at a good pace.

Now that I've removed his bully sticks (see firming up poop thread) little Sheldon may be rethinking antlers.


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## BFrancs (May 17, 2012)

krandall said:


> Most of Kodi's antlers have come from this company:
> 
> http://www.acadiaantlers.com/
> 
> They are really nice people, and if you contact them directly, you can get the flat blades that Kodi likes so much.





TilliesMom said:


> these look GREAT and resonable prices!! Have you tried any of their other products?
> They seem to show the flat ones first, are those the ones Kodi gets? Do they last a long time?? The rope chew looks interesting as well...


We get ours from Acadia Antlers too. I have four different kinds (moose shovel slice, tynes, split and the moose button). I bought ours about a year and half ago and just about ready for some new ones (tynes and split). My guys chew on them probably everyday; some days I have to take them away they can get obsess with them.


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## BFrancs (May 17, 2012)

If anyone is still interested in the Moose Antlers, Acadia Antlers are offering maple flavor.... http://acadiaantlers.weebly.com/antler-chews-for-sale.html


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## Colbie (Feb 9, 2013)

Do you think these would be suitable for puppies or wait until she gets her adult teeth?



Ron


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ColbyBlu said:


> Do you think these would be suitable for puppies or wait until she gets her adult teeth?
> 
> Ron


I don't think a puppy who still has puppy teeth could successfully chew on them.


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## BFrancs (May 17, 2012)

ColbyBlu said:


> Do you think these would be suitable for puppies or wait until she gets her adult teeth?
> 
> Ron


Vino is 5 months and he's just getting his big boy teeth. He's been gnawing at antlers since he was real little guy plus I think it loosen up puppy teeth. The moose button is a "softer" one or you can email them and ask them which ones they suggest for a puppy. They are pretty good with replying back in a day or so.

Acadia only offers flavoring on a seasonal bases... during Xmas they might have peppermint or pumpkin flavors.


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## Colbie (Feb 9, 2013)

BFrancs said:


> Vino is 5 months and he's just getting his big boy teeth. He's been gnawing at antlers since he was real little guy plus I think it loosen up puppy teeth. The moose button is a "softer" one or you can email them and ask them which ones they suggest for a puppy. They are pretty good with replying back in a day or so.
> 
> Acadia only offers flavoring on a seasonal bases... during Xmas they might have peppermint or pumpkin flavors.


Thanks for the suggestion. I e-mailed them and they replied back in 20 minutes! They recommended the taster slices for a small puppy. For 6 bucks they are worth a try.

Ron


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## DebW (Jun 11, 2013)

I don't remember the names, but I ordered Sheldon (age 5 months - still puppy teeth) samples of both the flat cut long pieces, and the sample on the rope. He likes the thing on the rope, but not the other.


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## Colbie (Feb 9, 2013)

DebW said:


> I don't remember the names, but I ordered Sheldon (age 5 months - still puppy teeth) samples of both the flat cut long pieces, and the sample on the rope. He likes the thing on the rope, but not the other.


I think they are the taster slices and the one with the rope is the moose -rac.


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