# Tear Stains



## luchetel

Hi!
I just joined the forum and am thrilled to have other havanese owners to speak with.
I have a 5 1/2 month old male puppy. We just love him!
I am wondering if anyone else has had signifiant tear stains erupt on their puppy?
It stains his eyes and is quite unsightly- there are also stains under his chin. Help! How do you get rid of this ailment? I have done some research and have found lots of topical stuff to try and make it lighter-so far nothing works. two products that works from the inside- One that is wheat free and dye free is called Angels Eyes. Anyone hear about this? Any suggestions?
Vet is no help.
Thanks.


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## Missy

Hi, jasper had bad eye staining as a puppy but seems to have grown out of it. 
I found eye clense pads to work pretty well (drsfosterandsmith.com) I use it on his beard too-- it doesn't get rid of it but keeps it bacteria free. I tried a drop of white vinegar in his water when he was young--- but mostly we just clip around his eyes. I didn't like the idea (nor did my vet) of angel eyes as it has some antibiotic in it and could interfere if your boy needs treatment. be patient it does get better--- try using filtered water.


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## jlwilson5

I have the same problems with Charlie. I have yet to find a cure but I clean under his eyes every night with a clean washcloth, water, and tearless puppy shampoo. I also put eyewash drops. The drops are suposed to flush out any foreign objects. It helps. There isnt much I do for the beard staining. I agree that its the food and once I changed food it wasnt as severe. Good luck!


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## Tom King

A lot of times they will grow out of it as the tear ducts enlarge as they grow. Also check to see if there are any hairs that turn into the eye so that the hairs stay in the eye all the time.


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## Cosmosmom

Hi 
I do not know if you take your Dog to a good groomer . Usually they know all the secrets .
I have a wonderful groomer and I will ask her the next time I see her . 
I have heard the same things about the water and diet .
I also have a friend who has a white Havanese and I will ask her what she did for the problem . 
I will be in touch


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## traceyrives

Has anyone heard of using hydrogen peroxide 3%, milk of magnesia, and corn starch? I just found this on the internet somewhere. I'm curious if it could be dangerous at all and if it works.


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## Kathy

It works, but I wouldn't use it unless someone can show you how. I have been shown, and still not comfortable doing it. Too close to the eye's could be bad.


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## irnfit

I think it is just the dog. Kodi is almost white but he doesn't get tear staining. However, when I first saw pics of Shelby, I thought her face was brown, white and black. The vet wrote on the papers that it was tear staining. Since she has been bathed and I have trimmed some of this hair away from her eyes, it is not as noticeable. Her eyes tear alot more than Kodi's.


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## luchetel

I would not use the peroxide- Peroxide is a bleach and even if it lightens the area, it does not get tothe root cause . 

I have a good groomer, not much new info. Breeder said she does not know of anything - just stop obsessing (?) about it. Vet said just wah it with warm water. All food has something in it unless one makes their own food.
And I have searched all over.
I have, however , decided to try the Angels Eyes product and have seen a significant change in the amount of tearing. We have done one haircut since then, and have cut off some of the old very stained black areas. My pup is looking significantly better and it is only 3 weeks. Yes, the stuff is bitter to the tongue- I did taste it as someone suggested. I mush a couple of liver treats and mix it together and after the first refusal, my puppy has decided he likes it and eats it every night. I will keep you posted! 
Lynn


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## Laurief

My Lily had tear stains as a pup, until she turned about 1 1/2 years old. Then it stopped completely. It was nice, But..... She has started up again! Not sure if it is the fact that every so often I give her a piece of puppy treat that the baby is on but that is the only thing that has changed since it started. I use the little treats from Nutro that look like a little pork or lamb chop. I am going to stop using them to see what happens.


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## Rita

Hi gang. My breeder recommended this link on her website. It talks about tear staining and cures. It is from a Maltese breeder but I am sure it is just the same.

You have to page down for the cures. Very interesting. It mentioned the white vinegar in drinking water that someone on our forum already recommended.  
http://www.bhejei.com/tearsta.htm


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## whitBmom

Thanks Rita, that is helpful to know. Oreo does get the reddish brown type of staining and I bought the diamond eye product and it has been working. It leaves the white areas really white  But recently I have been taking Bio-k personally and I figured what the heck, and I let him lick out the empty bottle every other day ( I drink 1/2 bottle per day)... OMG it IS helping. I guess yeast is yeast, whether in humans or dogs and its helping the staining. For me personally, things like vinegar, bio-k or natural things are preferred. Only if I really need to will I resort to things like diamond eye products etc.


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## BeverlyA

Hi Lauri,
If you find the treats make a difference, could you let me know? Maybe even send me a PM so I don't miss it? I use different Nutro Ultra and Max foods and also the treats, and both my Bichon and Hav have dark staining. 
Thanks!
Beverly


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## Cosmosmom

I have just subscribed to a book by Jan Rasmussen .
She has 2 Maltese and she alludes that the staining is due to diet and additives and preservatives in the dog food .
Just an FYI 
The name of her book is called Scared Poopless . I am not promoting the book in any way . I am just sharing information . A lot of it makes sense to me especially her opinion on vaccines especially the rabies vaccine ..
I learned a lot the hard way with health issues with my German Shorthair . It was not fun for him or for me


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## amy-ciara

Eye Stain during the change of teeth is quite normal and nothing to worry about.
It´s also small wonder during and short before the heat.

After reading this thread carefully, I decided not to take angeleye because of the antibiotical content. But I will try the other suggestions.

Mother and father of Audrey Rose have no eye stain , so I think it will be temporary.I will tell you.


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## littlebuddy

it might also be the food, i know when i switched his food to wellness, the goop slowed down tremendously. i also use angel eyes which helps tremendously. the other thing i use which was recommended by my breeder who is all natural, was Pawier. it's a liquid vitamin that's put on food or inwater. the vitamins help slow down and eventually stop the runny eyes which causes the staining. i have used it for 1 month now and see a tremendous change. i put it right in his water and use half of what they recommend. i find my breeder to be a great source of information. the pawier is a little expensive but when you get down to the cost per day, it's not that much. i expect my bottle to last months. my friend used the peroxide and it worked only for a while. i also use first aid small gauze squares to clean his eyes in themorning. i think it's just something that you have to do on a daily and regular basis to keep their pretty faces clean. it's part of having a wonderful havanese!


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## amy-ciara

Hmm, I think they get best food which is available on the European market. The others don´t have any problems with eye stain. We clean daily with Jean Peaux Eyewater. (no change at all).
I´ll give her this Eye Solution (which I´ve bought in America), brush her teeth afterwards, because of the malt syrup and look what happened. In addition I try the lemon-tip and I let her hair grow. I made the mistake after show to cut her hair in the face. Maybe that´s another reason , because it´s coming into the eyes.
Our part-time Maltese (we take care of him from 9 am. till 5 pm. Monday to Friday) Sammy had those problems when he was a puppy. It stops completely. Maybe it´s really only because of the teeth.


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## mintchip

Missy said:


> Hi, jasper had bad eye staining as a puppy but seems to have grown out of it.
> I found eye clense pads to work pretty well (drsfosterandsmith.com) I use it on his beard too-- it doesn't get rid of it but keeps it bacteria free. I tried a drop of white vinegar in his water when he was young--- but mostly we just clip around his eyes. I didn't like the idea (nor did my vet) of angel eyes as it has some antibiotic in it and could interfere if your boy needs treatment. be patient it does get better--- try using filtered water.


I just saw Angel Eyes at our local pet store. I have been wondering about it because of the antibiotic. Oliver doesn't need it (yet) but my neighbor swears by it for her maltese. She has given it to him daily for over a year. Afraid to stop?????
Has anyone tried it?


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## pjewel

Milo has a continuous problem with tear staining. I don't want to give him antibiotics unnecessarily so I'll try something else first. I hate it though and it must drive him crazy. I did notice after his grooming it's been a little better, but just a little.


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## mintchip

Geri--I agree with you.


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## amy-ciara

I heard very very bad things about Angel Eyes in the Malteserforum. 

Dogs who where treated with it for a long time (show malteser) died with 6 till 8 7 years. The reason was liver disease and a jaw which was getting sodden. The reason was Angel Eyes. For those, who understand German I will post the link. Written by a famous malteser- breeder from Vienna.

Tut das Euren Hunden nicht an und warne Deine Freundin, wenn Sie ihre Hündin noch länger haben will!!!!
Angel Eyes und die ähnlichen Produkte aus Amerika sind die amerikanische Methode Tränenflecken zu elimieren! Nämlich mit Antibiotika!!
Angel Eyes enthält ein paar "harmlose" Komponenten, aber der wirksame Anteil, der wirklich den "Sauber-Effekt" bewirkt, ist Tetrazyklin!!!
Dieses Breitband-Antibiotikum tötet die Bakterien in der Tränenflüssigkeit, die die Verfärbung bewirken, dadurch bleibt das Gesicht sauber.
Aber für einen hohen Preis! Ein gesunder Hund, der dauerhaft mit Antibiotika gefüttert wird, wird einerseits resistent dagegen, sodaß ihm im Falle einer Infektion eine notwendige Antibiose nicht mehr helfen kann. Andererseits wird durch die Dauerzufuhr von Antibiotika der Magen-Darm-Trakt geschädigt und die Ausscheidungsorgane Niere und Leber nachhaltig kaputt gemacht. Diese Hunde sterben nach wenigen Jahren an Leber-Nieren-Versagen.

In Amerika ist das Füttern mit Antibiotika insbesondere bei Showhunden gang und gebe, die müssen ja möglichst schnell tolle Showerfolge einfahren und dann nur wenige Jahre leben um teuren Nachwuchs zu produzieren oder durch Decken Geld hereinzubringen. Wenn sie länger leben würden würden sie ohnehin produktionstechnisch nichts mehr bringen und den Züchter nur noch Geld kosten. Also ist man über diese Lösung sehr froh. Man braucht nicht aufwändig herumzuputzen und zu pflegen um das Gesicht sauber und schön für die Show zu halten und die Hunde sterben auch noch rechtzeitig bevor sie wirklich nutzlos werden. Im Schnitt sterben diese Hunde zwischen 6 und 8 Jahren.

Unser Züchter, Herr Sankowski, hat lange Zeit in Amerika gelebt und hat auch seinen Deckrüden als Junghund dort gekauft. Er erzählte mir "Als der Hund ankam konnte ich schon sehen, daß sie ihm von Welpenalter an Antibiotika gegeben hatten, die Kieferknochen waren völlig aufgeweicht und porös." Und er sagte mir auch "Keiner meiner Hunde kommt auf einen Platz wo er mit Antibiotika vollgestopft wird, sowas will ich nicht haben!"

Deshalb mein dringender Appell an Euch: Tut Euren Hunden sowas nur "um der Schönheit willen" bitte niemals an, das ist es nicht wert!!!
_________________


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## ballteammom

I am doing puppy research. Havanese is my breed of choice. What percentage of dogs will get this tear staining? I've seen the dogs with this and It's nothing I'm looking forward to. I guess, though, once you love them it's ok.


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## judith

i used angel eyes and it worked very well, after reading so much negative against it i stopped. today i asked my vet about AE and he said tylosin is a form of tetracycline and advised not to use it. he suggested a drop of ex virgin olive oil in each eye 3 x a week often helps. also that a wet nose means the tear ducts are not plugged. i'll let you know!


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## Me&2Girls

*Natural Alternatives for eyestaining*

Every dog is unique and various methods have produced results. The ones most commonly being recommended are: natural apple cider vinegar, tomato paste and powered buttermilk. The apple cider vinegar didn't produce outstanding results on my Maltese, so I'm moving on to buttermilk. I'll let you know how it works.

For the short term, Angel Eyes is okay. A probiotic, Istain, can also be helpful. Keeping any red food dyes out of their diet is also good. I fed Wellness, but didn't get the results others have. My Maltese may have a chicken allergy and has been doing much better on a herring-based food.


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## ballteammom

Thanks for the tear staining ideas. I'll be reading your future posts on more solutions.
Bobbi


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## mintchip

Me&2Girls said:


> Every dog is unique and various methods have produced results. The ones most commonly being recommended are: natural apple cider vinegar, tomato paste and powered buttermilk. The apple cider vinegar didn't produce outstanding results on my Maltese, so I'm moving on to buttermilk. I'll let you know how it works.
> 
> For the short term, Angel Eyes is okay. A probiotic, Istain, can also be helpful. Keeping any red food dyes out of their diet is also good. I fed Wellness, but didn't get the results others have. My Maltese may have a chicken allergy and has been doing much better on a herring-based food.


Good luck Lisa
Oliver has been lucky. I add fressh parsley to his food and it seems to keep the tear stain away.
He did stain as a puppy but bottled water and getting rid of a plastic bowl seemed to help.
Tomato paste sounds interesting I wonder how that helps?


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## irnfit

I have been very lucky. Kodi has never stained. Shelby had bad staining when I got her, but it is gone now. I think it is the great NY water. :biggrin1:
Kodi hardly tears at all. Shelby is like waterworks. I have to keep her hair in a topknot, or her face is soaked all the time.


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## mellowbo

judith said:


> i used angel eyes and it worked very well, after reading so much negative against it i stopped. today i asked my vet about AE and he said tylosin is a form of tetracycline and advised not to use it. he suggested a drop of ex virgin olive oil in each eye 3 x a week often helps. also that a wet nose means the tear ducts are not plugged. i'll let you know!


I used Angel eyes for a little while on Lulu and then I found out that Tylosin is a form of tetracycline. Tetracycline eye drops for puppies was recently taken off the market (I know because our vet had prescribed it for Lulu instead of Angel eyes because it came in a dropper and was easier to dose. She called and told me to bring it back for a refund because it had been taken off the market.) It also turned puppy teeth yellow and could adversly effect the liver. 
Bottom line, from what I could figure out is that neither Tetracycline nor Tylosin was good for the dogs. I'm sure there may be times when Tetracycline is appropriate, but.....you know what I'm saying.
I've just been trying to clean under her eyes with a warm wash cloth and hope she outgrows the problem.
Also, I've heard that the minerals in the water can stain the beard and that purified water is better. And if the pet food contains beet pulp it would cause red tear stains......I dunno.....:frusty:


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## littlebuddy

this is so frustrating. i use it and it works, my breeder loves it and it keeps my dogs face clean. i think i am going to stop the angel eyes and stick with the Pawier, the liquid vitamin that is suppose to help sto the runny eyes which hopefully will sotp the draining. has anyone ever used Pawier?


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## Jane

*Success with short-term Tylosin*

I used Tylosin powder for Lincoln's muzzle (not tear) staining after trying everything under the sun for a year (Eye Envy, homemade remedies from the Maltese forum, hydrogen peroxide, whitening gels & shampoos, denture cleaner, etc.)

I used the TINIEST amount - about 1/32nd of a teaspoon a day. After 3 mos. his stained hair had grown out and he was completely stain free. His staining (although not all staining) was caused by red yeast/bacteria. It just appeared one day when he was about 10 mos. old, and within 2 weeks had spread to his muzzle and the hair between his front pads. I have no idea why it happened.

Anyway, I tapered it after that (every other day, then 2x/week) and then took him completely off of it. The staining has not returned and I am not doing anything else for it. I asked my vet about it and she said at that very small dose, it should not cause any problems. However, I didn't want to keep him on an antibiotic long term (esp. after seeing amy-ciara's post! thanks!)

Lincoln's brother uses Tylosin 2x/week to keep his tear staining under control - so perhaps you can use even less for tear staining.

I would try other methods of combating staining, esp. since the cause may be something OTHER than red yeast - it could be dyes in the food, the water, etc. But I think that if red yeast is causing your problem, you will have limited results with the other methods. Good luck!


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## littlebuddy

i should give my dog 1/4 teaspoon each day, i give him 1/16 teaspoon every other day until he clears up then every third day for maintenance. i need to have more of a scheudle with his maintenance, i tend to slack when his face looks great and then gear up when he needs it. i think with the low dose and from what my breeder has suggested i think i will continue to use it, on an as needed basis, very low dose, the bigger issue for him is the constant running of the eyes. he's had his tearducts irrigated twice, he has to go in for his teeth cleaning in a few weeks and that's usually when they do it but i hate having him under longer than he needs to be so maybe i will just stick it out with this Pawier liquid vitamin, they say you should see results in 60 days, he's been on it a month, i need to give it time.


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## Havtahava

I've used the Pawier and I don't remember why I quit. I think I had been traveling a lot and kept forgetting to take a bottle out to the motorhome. If you do a search for Pawier on the forum, I think there have been two other short discussions about it.


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## PMcCoy

*Tear Staining*

I have researched this online and found a breeder/handler who shows her dogs. She gives them one half of a Tums twice a day. The regular strength kind. I asked my vet and he said it couldn't hurt Toby. When I tried this, the staining seemed to disappear. I still clean his eyes everyday because they still water but he doesn't have the red staining.

Toby's Mom


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## mintchip

I wonder what is in the Tums that stops it?


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## DAJsMom

I recently started adding a spoonful of plain yogurt to Dusty's meals. Shortly after that I switched to Natural Balance Duck and Potato kibble (it's an allergy formula with few ingredients). Her tearing and tear staining is much less. I'm not sure what it is that is actually helping, or if it's the combination, but I'm pleased with the results! I had tried yogurt before, but not consistently with every meal. 

I've also read that teeth problems may contribute to tear staining. We started using Petzlife for Dusty's teeth a while back. Her teeth seem better, so maybe that's helping the tear staining too.


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## Me&2Girls

Yes, I've tried the Tums and it does seem to help reduce the staining. And Sally you are right about parsley - you mix it with the apple cider vinegar and supposedly the combination helps. Again, not a big difference on my Maltese.

I've still yet to try the powdered buttermilk - I can't find it cheap anywhere, sounds terrible I know but at nearly $10 for a bag that we'll never finish, I'd rather go with the Angel Eyes (tysolin) and get after the real problem - the yeast bacteria. Although I have been using a product from Maltese Only for the eye stain and it's been helping. Again, at the price, the Angel Eyes is going to be the best solution for my guy I think.


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## Havtahava

Joelle, that is interesting about the teeth problems. I know that teething, especially when the adult teeth are erupting, definitely increases tearing. I hadn't heard about other teeth problems though.


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## Suuske747

I agree with you. As I mentioned in other AngelEyes topics before...it's the longterm use that makes AngelEyes not healthy a choice.
You do not need to use it for so long as the producers want you to believe....

Sierra had mild staining, tear and muzzle... after 2 weeks of half the dosage they suggested, the colour changed from pink to clear...I continued as it said....in the 4th week I had cut away the stained fur...and spoke to my vet when I found out that Tylan is an antibiotic...he told me to decrease the dosage and frequency over the next 2 week.... So in total not use it longer than 6 weeks and only halve the dosage... 
It would be like any other anti-biotic treatment and give not extra harm and it would for any other infection treated with anti-biotics.

Now about 6 months later, it still has not come back....

So yes, I would, with the extra information from my vet, recommend it to anyone....it works....



Jane said:


> I used Tylosin powder for Lincoln's muzzle (not tear) staining after trying everything under the sun for a year (Eye Envy, homemade remedies from the Maltese forum, hydrogen peroxide, whitening gels & shampoos, denture cleaner, etc.)
> 
> I used the TINIEST amount - about 1/32nd of a teaspoon a day. After 3 mos. his stained hair had grown out and he was completely stain free. His staining (although not all staining) was caused by red yeast/bacteria. It just appeared one day when he was about 10 mos. old, and within 2 weeks had spread to his muzzle and the hair between his front pads. I have no idea why it happened.
> 
> Anyway, I tapered it after that (every other day, then 2x/week) and then took him completely off of it. The staining has not returned and I am not doing anything else for it. I asked my vet about it and she said at that very small dose, it should not cause any problems. However, I didn't want to keep him on an antibiotic long term (esp. after seeing amy-ciara's post! thanks!)
> 
> Lincoln's brother uses Tylosin 2x/week to keep his tear staining under control - so perhaps you can use even less for tear staining.
> 
> I would try other methods of combating staining, esp. since the cause may be something OTHER than red yeast - it could be dyes in the food, the water, etc. But I think that if red yeast is causing your problem, you will have limited results with the other methods. Good luck!


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## DAJsMom

Kimberly, 
I have no idea where I read it- I'm sure it was somewhere on the internet, but it had something to do with plaque and buildup on the teeth contributing to bacteria growth, I think. I know Dusty seems to reallly build up plaque and the Petzlife seems to be helping. Still, I think her tear staining started to noticeably improve after I added the yogurt and changed her food. She still does tear, especially in one eye, but it isn't staining nearly as much. It would be nice to get to the cause of the tearing and just get rid of it...


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## Guest

Makes since with the teeth. The status of the teeth and gums in general can effect lots of aspects of our own health and blood stream. Dogs would probably be in somewhat of the same boat.


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## littlebuddy

so here's my question, how do you clean the dry yeasty crust that's formed under their eyes where the tears run down their face? my dog's eyes run like mad, especially when i am in florida. i brush his face 2-3x a day, try to wet his hair around his face to comb the gunk (dry yeast) out of his hair, but it's painful for my dog and i can't get it clean. i asked my groomer about baby powder and baking soda and she didin't think it was a good idea. i can handle constant cleaning and wiping of his eyes, but i need a solution to the dry gunk on his skin under his wet facial hair.


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## Lina

A flea comb works best for me to remove dried up gunk. Though I suggest wetting it beforehand so it comes out easier.


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## mintchip

DAJsMom said:


> *I recently started adding a spoonful of plain yogurt to Dusty's meals. Shortly after that I switched to Natural Balance Duck and Potato kibble (it's an allergy formula with few ingredients). Her tearing and tear staining is much less. I'm not sure what it is that is actually helping, or if it's the combination, but I'm pleased with the results! I had tried yogurt before, but not consistently with every meal. *
> I've also read that teeth problems may contribute to tear staining. We started using Petzlife for Dusty's teeth a while back. Her teeth seem better, so maybe that's helping the tear staining too.


I do that with Oliver as well. The tear stain hardly visible at all:whoo:


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## littlebuddy

i've been doing that but it doesnt seem to work well, he keeps pawing my hand as i brush his face, i think it's uncomfortable for him but i will plug away.


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## juliav

I add natural yogurt and parsley to all my dog's food (although I need it only for my cream ones) and it works wonderfully well. The tearing is very minimal and clear, with no stains.


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## DAJsMom

TO get the tear gunk out from under Dusty's eyes, I use a flea comb and contact lens solution. It's Bausch and Lomb ReNu Multiplus multipurpose solution. I buy it at Target in a travel-sized bottle for $1, although I have found the store brand in a big bottle for not much more than that. It's easy to squirt it below the eyes, and I don't worry that it will hurt her if it accidentally gets in her eyes. It seems to work well. I hadn't thought of wetting the comb. I may try that. I usually get the crusty spot wet and rub it with my fingers, then comb it out with the flea comb.


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## littlebuddy

i use saline solution for contacts as well to wet the area and that seems to help soften the crud. if it gets in his eyes it wont hurt him. i've been giving my dog a spoonfull of yogurt for months and it doesn't seem to help at all but it's good for their belly so he still gets it. the skin under the hair just looks so red and irritated, he doesn't need to see a vet, just saw one last week to have teeth cleaned and groomer just saw him but i feel so bad, wish there was another easier way to remove the crud. i think i might try the tums, never heard of that as an option but why not?! is the amount based on weight?


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## Havtahava

I just remove the gunk in the morning when it is still soft. If your dog gets more during the day, can't you just remove it more often?

If I have missed it, and it gets a little crusty, I just use my fingernail to grab it and pull it out. I don't like the flea comb idea, because I don't want to smear anything through the facial hair. If it is crusty, it seems like the fingernail would pull less hair too.


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## anneks

Someone suggested cornstarch to me. Dab a little at the corner of the eye and it dries up the tears before they run down the hair. Can't say I've done it though but always keep telling my self I should try it. I just never remember to pick any up when I am at the store.


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## Havtahava

Oh yes, cornstarch works great. I always have a stack of white washcloths handy too, so I rub out any excess moisture possible, sprinkle some cornstarch and then comb it in (or rub it in) to the hair.

Someone else said baby powder, but I'm leary of talc near their eyes. Cornstarch soaks up moisture without clumping, but isn't so light that they will inhale it nor get it in their eyes.


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## littlebuddy

does the cornstarch go where their face is wet or just right below their eyes to stop the runny eyes? i have tried using my fingernail to get the crud out but his face is wet from the runny eyes and it's a little harder to separate the hair to get in and clean it when it's wet. the saline does seem to keep his eyes cleaner and less goopy, i think it rinses away the pollens, etc. that accumulate under his eyes. it seems to be a never ending battle and one i can't win!


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## Havtahava

I see what you mean about the rinse. I'd use it too in that case. 

The cornstarch goes where it is wet. 

We use it a lot at dog shows too, especially if the dog has white feet and has just stepped on wet grass. Then we cornstarch the feet and brush it out. Instant cleaner! (Well, at least the illusion of being clean.) It also works in a pinch after a messy poop in the back hair if you don't have the ability to give a quick bath - squirt on some waterless cleaner, put some cornstarch on there and brush it out. It looks clean in seconds and you can wait until you get home for that bath.


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## mintchip

Havtahava said:


> I see what you mean about the rinse. I'd use it too in that case.
> 
> The cornstarch goes where it is wet.
> 
> We use it a lot at dog shows too, especially if the dog has white feet and has just stepped on wet grass. Then we cornstarch the feet and brush it out. Instant cleaner! (Well, at least the illusion of being clean.) * It also works in a pinch after a messy poop in the back hair if you don't have the ability to give a quick bath - squirt on some waterless cleaner, put some cornstarch on there and brush it out. It looks clean in seconds and you can wait until you get home for that bath.*


WOW Great tip Thanks!:whoo:


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## littlebuddy

so the cornstarch hides the problem,doesn't fix it, correct?


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## Havtahava

The root cause of the staining is the constant moisture. Cornstarch dries the area to prevent further staining, but it does not correct the cause. If the dog has a blocked tear duct or an allergy causing the excessive tearing, that will need to be resolved in other ways.


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## Me&2Girls

*New Tear Stain Remover*

I forgot to mention that I've found a really good product for tear stains - I've gone through a whole bottle and it doesn't dry out the hair and really lightens the stains. Plus my guy doesn't go nuts trying to wipe his face afterwards. It's expensive at $20 a bottle, but really the best thing that I've found that doesn't contain peroxide or antibiotics. It's made for Maltese, but I've used it on my Havanese and Pomeranian as well. You can get it here at Maltese Only.


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## EstrellaVila

I used angel eyes short term on my lighter hav and liked it, but I stopped cause I heard so many weird things about it. I try to just keep her face clean and wipe the stuff off as frequently as possible so it does not start to do the red staining. 

Lisa, how fast does the stay white product start to work on the old stains?


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## Me&2Girls

It works the first few times you use it. If I was good and used it twice a day, morning and night, it would work way better. I'm not sure if it will remove them completely if you've got a red yeast problem like my Maltese but boy, it sure does look better. It helps if you dry their face with a towel afterwards too.


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## TnTWalter

Thinking about trying Eye envy...has anyone tried it here? I wonder how it compares. They have a powder that might work like the cornstarch but it contains an antibacterial which might help prevent future stains.

I've used Angel Eyes and it's just not a miracle for me...but I haven't been consistent with it so I'll give it a go.

Plus I switched to Wellness Core when the staining was worse and wondered if that had anything to do with it, so switched back to Super5Mix. I have switched to Distilled water...need to get rid of the stainless bowl....UGH.


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## Jane

Me&2Girls said:


> I forgot to mention that I've found a really good product for tear stains - I've gone through a whole bottle and it doesn't dry out the hair and really lightens the stains. Plus my guy doesn't go nuts trying to wipe his face afterwards. It's expensive at $20 a bottle, but really the best thing that I've found that doesn't contain peroxide or antibiotics. It's made for Maltese, but I've used it on my Havanese and Pomeranian as well. You can get it here at Maltese Only.


Lisa, do you know what the active ingredient in it is? Does your Maltese also have muzzle staining? I'm wondering if it will work on the muzzle too...


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## Me&2Girls

Jane - no, I don't know what's in it - I couldn't find the ingredients only a promise of no antibiotics or peroxide. It has virtually no smell. At one point, I thought I'd paid $20 for a small bottle of distilled water - but the darn stuff does work. Not perfect, but so much better than anything else. And yes, it works better on the muzzle than the eyes. I really need to add Tylan but haven't yet. If I used this twice a day and keep his muzzle and eyes dry, it would be better, but sigh...I'm just an imperfect owner.:biggrin1:


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## Havtahava

Trish, I used Eye Envy several years ago, but found that a basic Baush & Lomb (sp?) eye wash did nearly the same thing. It is more of a facial wash than anything.

Lisa, interesting. I'd be curious to know what is in it too. I wonder if it is similar to the B&L eye wash deal where just washing it regularly helps. ??


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## Brady's mom

Trish, I tried changing to Core at one point two and had the same results as you (terrible staining). I went back to Chicken Soup and it got better. Sometimes we have staining problems and I simply can't tell you what changed to create it. We are in a good phase right now without any issues. Although, he does stain a little around his mouth, but that is my fault for not cleaining his mouth after he eats.


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## Posh's Mom

Well folks I've been giving Posh distilled water, but I'm going to stop because honestly I don't think it's doing anything and I don't want to deplete her system of minerals...maybe just every now and then to balance things out.

Here some info on distilled water:


> Many people decide to buy a distilled water maker. Whilst this is safe to drink it should not be drunk continuously over a long period of time. Distilled water is empty water and it will help to draw out the toxins from the body. However prolonged usage will leach vital minerals and vitamins from the body.
> 
> Anyone drinking distilled water for a prolonged period of more than a few days should very definitely take mineral and vitamin supplements but we do not recommend drinking this permanently. It's far better to drink this a few times a day as well as drinking normal filtered water whilst ensuring you get all the vitamins and minerals your body needs either from your diet or by using a supplement as well.


Also I am trying to be better at actually washing her face twice a day with baby shampoo, just to keep the smell down. Her tear staining kind of blends a bit with her coloring so for now I'm just trying not to be such a perfectionist. 

A friend of mine who knows all these crazy random facts said that the yeast is probably feeding on the cornstarch...I know you avoid corn products if you have candida. (spelling?)

She mentioned putting white clay on the yeast staining...and that I could probably pick this up at my local co-op.

I found this info on yeast diaper rashes...hmm...maybe I'll try something like this? I don't think I'll go for the monostat or other fungicide route, but the egg whites maybe?!


> Monistat is the same as athlete's foot cream, as is jock itch cream. There are only 3-4 drugs that are used in all the OTC drugs for yeast infections (vaginal, athlete's foot, and jock itch). It should be noted that you should only use the yeast infection cream that is meant to be used externally -not the kind that you put in an syringe like thing and put deep in the vagina.
> 
> Breastmilk cures many diaper rashes, including yeast.
> 
> Yogurt (no sugar, active culture) can also work on yeast rashes.
> 
> Grapefruit Seed Extract is also highly effective on yeast rashes.
> 
> Genetian violet while often believed to be natural is made from coal-tar and should be used with caution.
> 
> Other cures:
> 
> Beat an egg white until frothy, paint on and let dry before putting diaper on. Its supposed to create a wonderful barrier.
> 
> Liquid antacid (not pepto, but something like gaviscon) can help reduce inflammation from acidic diarrhea particularly caused by teething.
> 
> Calamine lotion works fine as well, its zinc the same as most diaper creams.


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## bella serra

i have consistantly used angel eyes for months(going to stop) and no help with tear stains, which is so drustrating since so many of you have had great success...also use only alkaline water and natural balance dog food...vet say ducts not clogged....bella is 7mo old and sooo precious..i hate these tear stains...any new ideas???
help, bellas mom..


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## moxie

I am beginning to wonder if anything works consistently. I have just started Eye Envy... too soon to say for Moxie, but it is easy to use and he doesn't mind a bit.


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## Posh's Mom

Do you even really see the staining on Moxie? With such a dark area around his eyes I'm surprised. I've also started Eye Envy, and I'm back to sprinkling Eyebright (it's an herb) on Posh's food....I am giving her regular tap water as I'm trying not to buy that for my humans either, so I feel like a hypocrite if I give it to her.


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## luchetel

I am sorry that the Angels Eyes did not work for Bella. I do have another suggestion of something that I have also used for Parker. I have given Parker yogurt with active cultures- I have given Parker plain Greek yogurt because he likes it- One tablespoon a day. It takes a bit of time for it to work- and the old stains need to grow out for you to see a difference. 
I have recently found a new article about tear stains that is quite extensive. It is on a maltese web site- but there certainly is similiarities between the breeds. 
http://www.bhejei.com/tearsta.htm
I do understand how frustrating it is- Another piece of good news is that sometimes the tear stains wax and wane- Parker has been off Angels Eyes for the past several months and he is fine. But I know it will come back again. And I have not done anything different- We use bottled water- but we have always used bottled water. We use the natural dried raw food- but we have always used it. I have resogned myself to the fact that it will always be an issue on and off- just keep trying different remedies until you find one that works for your furbaby! 
By the way, my puppy Jackson gets stuff on his eyes but it doesnt form the tear stain.It justs gets hard and comes off. So it is also true that there is a genetic component since they both eat exactly the same thing and the environment is the same.
Good Luck!
Lynn


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## Laurief

Like Lynn, I give all my guys a heaping tablespoon of yogurt with active cultures each day. DH buys then organic low fat vanilla & they love it!! They probably dont need organic, but if DH is willing to do the shopping, who am I to complain!
my guys also get distilled water. We do this because of a bladder crystal problem in my oldest but I think it helps with the staining. Here is a picture of Lily and the yogurt results. The only thing I do with her is clean the corner of her eyes to get out eye goop, but only with a tissue - NO products!!


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## moxie

Lily is GORgeous!
Here is a newer picture of Moxie and you can see the brown on his mustache, certainly not a big deal, but I love to fuss with him.


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## Posh's Mom

So I really want to treat these stains in a natural way. I've decided that maybe a yeast is a yeast and therefore the antibiotic route is not good for long term because anyone with experience with candida knows that continued use of antibiotics create yeast infections. I"m going to try and make a "tincture" to paint on Posh's face everyday. I just made some up and she also wanted to lick the paint brush, since it's totally safe I let her...if this works I'll let you all know my recipe.


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## ama0722

I have to share this with you guys!

Isabelle goes in and out of having bad face staining. First, I am not the best at washing her face everyday and second, I think it is mainly allergies as she goes in and out of this her entire life so I don't like the idea of giving her the tylan. But I wanted a easy solution and I bought the apple cider vinegar. We have a water bowl cause Belle is the only dog that doesnt do the lixit. In fact she hates it. She will stand in the kitchen and bark if her bowl is empty. So last night I told DH about the new water. Belle took a drink and walked away. She obviously didn't like it. I took a spoon and tried it and it has a slight taste. I thought either she drinks out of the bowl or uses the lixit. Well a few minutes later, Isabelle walks into the living room with the little plastic bowl we leave under the lixit for occasional drips. She brought it all the way in the living room and dropped it in front of me!!!

Tells you what she thinks about the apple cider vinegar treatment!!! I already gave in and it had only been a day!


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## SaydeeMomma

I had two maltese previously that were from the same litter. One had terrible red tear stains all her life and the other was clean as a whistle. I think I must have tried everything mentioned in the thread (besides antibiotics) and concluded the best thing is just cleaning the area with warm fresh water whenever you get the chance. I must admit I haven't tried the yogurt yet....


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## moxie

Moxie wouldn't touch the vinegar water either, very cute.
And the logic behind the tincture to treat yeast sounds very sound, but I thought it was bacterial?? If not, you are so right about the antibiotics!! And yes, yogurt would make sense if it is yeast.....hmmm.


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## mintchip

Oliver refuses apple cider vinegar and like Belle Lixit is a :nono::nono:
He loves yogurt


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## Jane

Amanda, I had to chuckle at Belle's reaction to the ACV!

Has anyone tried putting the ACV on the food (kibble) instead of in the water? Just wondering if that would make it more palatable and less noticeable.

Amy, please let me know if your tincture works! I use Tylan, but would love to find other solutions.


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## Me&2Girls

Yes, Jane I have. I take the meat treats (or any scraps) put 1 tsp ACV per 1/2 cup of meat scraps plus add fresh parsley. Keep in the refrigerator - increase the ACV if you can so they take it. Also you can try peanut butter. Try the raw, unprocessed ACV from someplace like whole foods. It's about $2.50 a bottle and you keep in the refrigerator once opened. It does work. I did it with Buddy for a while.


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## ama0722

I think we will try the yogurt route as DH eats yogurt everyday. I just don't like doing this stuff to her where she knows it is me too! She really doesn't like change and I don't like more work!


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## Posh's Mom

Has anyone used Diamond Eye tear stain remover?


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## moxie

I did use Diamond Eye when Moxie was a baby and it helped, but I haven't seen it on the shelves since then. I don't know what it was, there was no ingredient info. I used it twice a day. Eye Envy is once, I think. No results yet with EE.


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## SaydeeMomma

I've read that Diamond Eye and Eye Envy both contain antibiotic like Angel Eyes... I'm not sure where I read that, it was some time back...


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## Posh's Mom

Eye Envy is topical, and doesn't contain an antibiotic.


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## jabellar

Arrggh - - I hate tear stains!!!

Here are the list of most of the remedies I've read about on the forum:
* Switching to Bottled water
* Parsley
* Trader Joe's Greek Yogurt
* Blueberries
* Solid Gold Wee Bits (Pink)
* Blueberry Facial wash (http://grooming.petedge.com/SPA-Fresh-Facial-Scrub-TC260.pro)
* Maltese Stay White (http://www.malteseonly.com/cart/product_details.php?category_id=60&item_id=154)

I've read somewhere that tearing may occur during teething.. It has also been suggested to speak to the vet about flushing the tear ducts.

Castro is already on bottled water, eating SG Wee bits, getting washed with the blueberry face wash and the Maltese Stay White. We went through a bottle of Eye Envy without any improvement. I have YET to make it to the store to get some parsley and yogurt (we eat out a lot!), and Castro doesn't like blueberries. I've seen some improvement, but nothing significant&#8230; Castro is starting to lose his baby teeth, so I am hoping that once that is over, the stains will subside&#8230;

What exactly does flushing the tearducts entail? Is this a minor procedure?


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## Renee

Miley is all white, and has had tear stains since we got her. We've tried the tums, which seems to help, but doesn't rid her of them. We've also switched to Blue Buffalo food. Last week I started adding yogurt, which she LOVES, but then her bm's aren't solid, and sticks to to fur...yuk. I'd rather have the eye stains! When she was spayed, the vet checked for clogged ducts, and reported that she is MISSING her tear ducts. That is why the tears are spilling onto her face. Has anyone heard of this? 
They must itch, because yesterday she rubbed her eyes on the carpet til the edges were bright red...almost bleeding. Do you think I need to take her to the vet??


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## LexisMom

Just to chime in... Lexi has tear stains as well. I have tried:

Filtered water
Adding the Missing Link to her food
Tums
Eye Envy
Wellness food
Her vet recommended against antibiotics as well since it is just a "cosmetic" condition and she does not have clogged tear ducts.

Of the 5 remedies listed above, nothing has made a significant difference. Since we brought her home she has been drinking filtered water and I have been adding Missing Link (Omega 3 and some other nutrients) supplements to her food. She has been on Wellness for the last 2 months... no change.

I have not been religiously using the Eye Envy (topical) or Tums, so I can't say that they definitey don't work, maybe we'll try them again! I might try the parsley + yogurt + blueberries + ACV, but Lexi is such a finicky eater she might not want to try them.

I'm sorry to hear about Miley. Is it possible that she is allergic to something? New/different food? If her eyes were nearly bleeding I would at least call the vet to see what they say. Sorry to hear that!


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## SaydeeMomma

Solid Gold Wee Bits has both parsley and blueberries in it. It also contains a great probiotic (similar to what's in yogurt), Yucca Schidigera Extract. Saydee's been on Wee Bits since I brought her home, but to no avail. We use Salmon Oil here and there plus there's Salmon Oil in Wee Bits. We've also tried lots of topical stuff like Show Eyes, etc... Water changes never made a difference... still lots of staining... Grrrr....


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## jabellar

LexisMom said:


> Just to chime in... Lexi has tear stains as well. (


Lexie is adorable; her eyes look very clean, or is that photoshop'd?? <wink>


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## LexisMom

Thanks! Lexi's photos in my avatar and signature aren't photoshopped. That was from the breeder and the first day she was home - she came to us with perfect stain-free eyes, but about a week or two into owning her the stains started and haven't stopped. She is in the throes of teething though, which I am sure is not helping. The breeder specifically showed me photos of her parents to show me that her cream colored father does not have tear stains at all. But, alas she does. The vet assures me that her eyes are fine, just gotta keep wiping them at least twice a day.

I'll admit to touching up photos in her album! Hopefully we'll find some remedy so that I won't have to.


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## mintchip

Do they use plastic bowls? When Oliver was a puppy someone told asked me that......but once I took the plastic bowls away the tearstain seemed to clear up quickly.


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## LexisMom

Interesting theory with the plastic bowls. Lexi eats and drinks only out of ceramic though, never plastic.


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## SaydeeMomma

LexisMom
I just got back from the vet for Saydee's 16 wk checkup and the vet did a stain to determine if Saydee's eyes were draining properly. He said her tears were not draining from her nose, like they should be. He's going to flush her eye ducts when I take her in next month for spaying, but there's no guarantee it will solve the problem. He says the best thing to do is just keep the area as clean and dry as possible. The fur can actually stay so wet it can cause a staph infection, so the dryness is pretty important. He said the tearing may let up a bit after teething is complete, but most likely not. Waaaah! 

P.S. Even though I knew the answer, I asked him about Angel Eyes. He said NO NO NO! It's not ethical to treat a cosmetic problem with long term antibiotics.


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## SaydeeMomma

Amy
Good to know about the Eye Envy, thank you. Have you tried it? Does it work? Posh doesn't look like she has tear stains at all...


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## jabellar

*Unblocking Tear Ducts to prevent tearing/staining*

Every dog is different, and what works for Lexie, may not work for Castro, but may work with Saydee and vicey versey...

I spoke to my vet today and asked her about the procedure of testing, diagnosing and treatment of blocked tear ducts. After she explained it, we've decided to have Castro's tear ducts tested. If his ducts are blocked and it is financially feasible for us, we will do the procedure of unblocking his tear ducts the same time he gets neutered...

Would really want to hear peoples' comments, thoughts, advise, experience on this... Thanks..

And apologies for hi-jacking the thread.... Please let me know if I should post this under a new thread...


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## KristinFusco

SaydeeMomma said:


> LexisMom
> I just got back from the vet for Saydee's 16 wk checkup and the vet did a stain to determine if Saydee's eyes were draining properly. He said her tears were not draining from her nose, like they should be. He's going to flush her eye ducts when I take her in next month for spaying, but there's no guarantee it will solve the problem. He says the best thing to do is just keep the area as clean and dry as possible. The fur can actually stay so wet it can cause a staph infection, so the dryness is pretty important. He said the tearing may let up a bit after teething is complete, but most likely not. Waaaah!
> 
> P.S. Even though I knew the answer, I asked him about Angel Eyes. He said NO NO NO! It's not ethical to treat a cosmetic problem with long term antibiotics.


Hmmmm...I have to say that I respectfully disagree that the treatment of a "cosmetic problem" with antibiotics is unethical. People with acne or rosacea are treated with FDA-approved tetracycline, erythromycin, and other antibiotics for long periods of time without a large number of side effects reported, statistically speaking.

I know that you meant it in the canine sense, and I am sure that your veterinarian has your best interests at heart, but not every vet agrees with that sentiment. I have had 2 vets tell me that low-dosage use of tylosin, although it is not FDA-approved for usage in dogs, does relieve staining with short term usage, with minimal side effects (provided that the dog isn't allergic and has all of its adult teeth, otherwise there may be "graying" of the teeth). I have not personally used the product on my Havs, but I think that if my dog had a tear staining problem that could not be treated by less invasive methods, I would definitely consider an antibiotic at my veterinarian's discretion.


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## SaydeeMomma

Kristin
It's definately a personal choice and I didn't intend to say my way was the only way. I admit even for me Angel Eyes is tempting and if Saydee's condition was worse, to the point of infection, I'd be more likely to reconsider.


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## Posh's Mom

SaydeeMomma said:


> Amy
> Good to know about the Eye Envy, thank you. Have you tried it? Does it work? Posh doesn't look like she has tear stains at all...


Posh most definitely has the dreaded brown staining, but I try and photograph her from the front where you really don't notice it. From the side you can see her tear "tire marks" most definitely.

I was/am totally obsessed about her tearing and stains, and have now just tried to "lighten up" and accept them. I have been using the Eye Envy daily, in the morning for about a week and really haven't noticed any change. I think it's probably basically water on a fancy "pimple pad, like the stridex ones" and cornstarch for the dry stuff you put on them after you clean them with the "pimple pad." But, I guess, I should probably see what happens after a month of really keeping the area clean. I should probably clean it twice a day, but really that won't happen consistently.

Also, I am inconsistently sprinkling Echinacea and Eyebright on her food, and letting her lick a mixture of yogurt & vinegar (I only had balsamic and she loved it!!!). I don't know if these will help, but I do think yeast is yeast and I know yeast doesn't grow well with the yogurt and vinegar. The echinacea is for her immune system, and the eyebright is also an herb that promotes healthy eyes. I have actually noticed that her eyes do look clearer.

I also just make sure she has nothing really sitting on her eyeball that might make her tear more, sometimes the goop makes it out of her eye and lands on her eyeball, so I wipe it away.

What really makes me curious is that Beamer, Ryan's dog, who is white has not had any tearing since he was switched to a raw diet. I wonder how many people have seen this change? I just don't know if I could go raw. Basically the food storage would be a problem for my household, because we're vegetarians with a very small fridge/freezer and honestly the idea of seeing something raw and bloody in the fridge would be difficult for my kids, I think..

I don't know.

Sorry this was so long.

If I come up with a solution, I'll let you all know, as I think a true solution for this would make millions!!!


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## Posh's Mom

Kristin it's interesting that you bring up the antibiotics for acne/rosacea point. I know that there is some evidence out there actually linking long term use of these types of antibiotics with candida (chronic yeast infections) which really got me thinking about the Angel Eyes and the red yeast. I know that it isn't really the exact same thing, but it did have me thinking. I too am not comfortable with using an antibiotic, no matter what the dosage for a long period of time for me, my children, or my dog.

I've actually wondered about the chicken they use in my Posh's Innova Evo. I am pretty sure the chicken has been fed antibiotics....but man, where do I stop?! I am not willing to slaughter my own flock to feed her, so I guess I have to find some middle road.


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## SaydeeMomma

Amy
You can't even tell Posh has tear stains. I think her lovely coloring works perfectly to hide it 

Saydee has that white muzzle and all along either side it's rusty rusty red. Then on the bridge of her nose, it's blood red and soggy! I have some "Stridex" type pads called Show Eyes and they don't do a darn thing except make the old, longer hair look a lighter shade of orange. 

Like you, I try not to stress over something so petty, but it makes me sad such a beautiful little face has to look kind of dirty and wet all the time. I don't know about the raw diet, I like the concept. But I'm such a chicken - I'm not much of a cook for humans, let alone canines! And the bloody meat thing is also an issue in my house... 

At this point I'm just trying to keep things clean and as dry as possible. I've tried the yogurt but I like the idea of the vinegar-yogurt combo. Sounds yummy. It's certainly worth a try!

My reservations regarding antibiotics stem from a naturopathic take on medicine in general. Antibiotics are widely overused. I just don't feel that tear stains are enough cause for antibiotics, which should be reserved for use only when necessary. As our society continues to overuse antibiotics, they become less and less effective. 

It's a personal choice, but it's an important one.


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## Milo's Mom

I put some cornstarch on the corners of Milo's eyes twice a day. Be careful not to get in the eye. This dries up the "tears" and gives a whiter appearance. I also use a product called I-Stain (recomended by the breeder)


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## SaydeeMomma

Milo's Mom
I-Stain, yes! It's a probiotic, aka natural antibiotic. Does it help?


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## KristinFusco

I definitely agree that antibiotics are overused in general. I have served as both a chemical engineer and as a scientist in big pharma and academia, and I believe that excessive treatment with antibiotics has created multi-drug resistant strains of bacteria through the uptake of resistance genes via plasmid transfer. However, I also feel that there are cases where antibiotic use is warranted. I was only trying to make the converse point that for particularly difficult tearstaining that is due to bacterial infection, antibiotics may be an option. I don't know the mechanism of action for this drug, so I can't comment on how it eradicates the red yeast.

Amy, you have a valid point that antibiotic use can lead to yeast infections because they kill the naturally occurring flora as well as the pathogens. However, those suffering from acne will often take that tradeoff due to lack of better options. I will be the first to admit that I rarely use medication of any kind, but I do feel that when applied correctly, I do trust that the 10-12 years of drug testing that almost all FDA products undergo is valid in most instances.


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## SaydeeMomma

KristinFusco said:


> I was only trying to make the converse point that for particularly difficult tearstaining that is due to bacterial infection, antibiotics may be an option.


Kristin, I agree, bacterial infection is of course a cause for antibiotics. I was aiming my conversation regarding Angel Eyes to the discussion of tear stains, not actual infection. Saydee has lots of tear staining, but no infection, thankfully!


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## mintchip

Just curious --What foods are you feeding your havs?


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## SaydeeMomma

Saydee gets Solid Gold, just because that's what the breeder fed her. I'd like to switch to Innova, and I've tried mixing it with the Solid Gold to introduce her to it. 

However, I noticed she had the runs after I tried mixing, so I stopped. I don't know if it was the Innova or the fact that she ingested 5-10 earthworms from the recent rain, so I'll try it again later uke:

I also spice up kibble with cottage cheese, canned dog food, shredded cheese, salmon oil, and anything else I think might be healthy and taste good to her. She doesn't really like dry kibble... She's got me wrapped around her finger.


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## KristinFusco

SaydeeMomma said:


> Kristin, I agree, bacterial infection is of course a cause for antibiotics. I was aiming my conversation regarding Angel Eyes to the discussion of tear stains, not actual infection. Saydee has lots of tear staining, but no infection, thankfully!


There is some discussion that I've seen on various pet sites that the reason antibiotics work to remove tear stains is that in some cases, there may be an underlying low-level bacterial infection. I am not sure as to the validity of those claims, I only deal in human medication studies, not the pet kind, but the red yeast MIGHT, in certain instances, be symptomatic of an underlying infection that has lowered the pup's resistance. I think it can also be due to structure of the eye and tear duct, as well as environment, allergens, etc.


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## KristinFusco

SaydeeMomma said:


> Saydee gets Solid Gold, just because that's what the breeder fed her. I'd like to switch to Innova, and I've tried mixing it with the Solid Gold to introduce her to it.
> 
> However, I noticed she had the runs after I tried mixing, so I stopped. I don't know if it was the Innova or the fact that she ingested 5-10 earthworms from the recent rain, so I'll try it again later uke:
> 
> I also spice up kibble with cottage cheese, canned dog food, shredded cheese, salmon oil, and anything else I think might be healthy and taste good to her. She doesn't really like dry kibble... She's got me wrapped around her finger.


My boy Carlito had the runs after eating Innova as well, even when I tried switching it over extremely slowly while mixed in with his regular food. I have tried to go grain-free with him but his stomach is clearly sensitive to it, so I have settled on Fromm's 4 star kibble and have decided to just stick to it


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## SaydeeMomma

I wonder why they get the runs? I had two Maltese before that ate Innova for years with no problem. 
Maybe it's a puppy thing. Like I said, 5-10 earthworms...

Evo. Why are we avoiding grains? I know corn and wheat can be allergy-causing. Is that why? Solid Gold doesn't have corn or wheat, but there is barley, millet and rice. I thought even raw diets often contained brown rice.

I wonder if a simple topical antibiotic could be used in the case of a low-level infection? It certainly seems like a better solution than an antibiotic that is ingested and therefore systemic.


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## Milo's Mom

Yes, it does help and doesn't contain an antibioitic like Angel Eyes. It's made by Thomas Laboratories - $8.00 container will last at least 6 months. You give a 1/4 teaspoon twice a day in food for a 12 lb. dog. The corn starch also works very well, but you have to be consistent and use it twice a day. I use both with Milo.


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## SaydeeMomma

Thank you Milo's Mom. That's great to know! I'll have to give it a try. YAY!


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## KristinFusco

SaydeeMomma said:


> I wonder why they get the runs? I had two Maltese before that ate Innova for years with no problem.
> Maybe it's a puppy thing. Like I said, 5-10 earthworms...
> 
> Evo. Why are we avoiding grains? I know corn and wheat can be allergy-causing. Is that why? Solid Gold doesn't have corn or wheat, but there is barley, millet and rice. I thought even raw diets often contained brown rice?
> 
> I wonder if a simple topical antibiotic could be used in the case of a low-level infection? It certainly seems like a better solution than an antibiotic that is ingested and therefore systemic.


I absolutely agree with you that if a topical treatment is available and efficacious, it would be my first choice. For myself, I always go for the least innocuous treatment first, and then escalate from there. There is a theory that one of the reasons there are so many antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria popping up is that drugs have a certain half life in our system, and what isn't used in the body heads out in our urine, and into the ecosystem. Pretty gross, huh? :biggrin1:


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## LexisMom

Well it does sound like Eye Envy is a mild topical _herbal_ antibiotic... not that it seems to be helping many that post on the board (including myself - but I admitedly have not used it religiously). I'm not sure what the efficacy of an herbal antibiotic would be either of course:

"Eye Envy utilizes a combination of four main ingredients that attack the root of the problem. Our externally applied solution contains an herbal antibiotic, an anti-bacterial, a cleanser and an astringent, all scientifically developed to eradicate those pesky tear stains."


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## SaydeeMomma

Tee hee! We have two different topics going on here.

On the food/diet topic, here's a website my local natural pet food store passed on to me. I haven't read everything but it looks very interesting. For anyone who cares:

http://home.att.net/~wdcusick/main.html

Supposedly there's a place where you can sign up to get your dog's breed researched and they can tell you what the breed is best suited to eat.

It's interesting, that's for sure...


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## KristinFusco

SaydeeMomma said:


> I wonder why they get the runs? I had two Maltese before that ate Innova for years with no problem.
> Maybe it's a puppy thing. Like I said, 5-10 earthworms...
> 
> Evo. Why are we avoiding grains? I know corn and wheat can be allergy-causing. Is that why? Solid Gold doesn't have corn or wheat, but there is barley, millet and rice. I thought even raw diets often contained brown rice.
> 
> I wonder if a simple topical antibiotic could be used in the case of a low-level infection? It certainly seems like a better solution than an antibiotic that is ingested and therefore systemic.


Haha you really have me chatting tonight, this is very unlike me  The reason that I tried going grain-free was that a few of my Hav friends and breeders swear by the raw diet, which I can't describe in very good detail but I think there have been threads on here about it before. Some people believe that dogs have evolved as carnivores and therefore we should keep them as close to their natural diet as possible. I just did a poor job of explaining it, but if you search it on this forum, then you can find info on the topic. I was considering going raw and started by transitioning to a grain-free food (one from Fromm's called Surf and Turf and the other from Innova) but Carlito's belly just seemed completely averse to it. Maybe if I had given him more time to adjust it would have worked, I just got tired of cleaning poopy butt so I gave up on that endeavor.


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## SaydeeMomma

I have to admit the raw diet makes alot of sense. I've heard about lots and lots of good results. I have several reservations though (mentioned previously in this thread, including my lack of skills in the kitchen!) particularly the health concerns with raw meat. I'm glad it works for some, I just don't see how it would be a good fit for Saydee and me. Plus, I'm anti-poopy butt.

Saydee thinks moving earthworms are a tasty raw diet!

P.S. I can chat enough for the two of us and then some. All it takes is a good topic or a good glass of wine!


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## LexisMom

Thanks for the site about food Maya. I just checked it out and was reading the anti-raw diet article. I too have heard others extol the wonders of the raw diet. I am also currently reading "Scared Poopless" by Jan Rasmusen who promotes a raw diet or something close to it at least (I'm not sure that's right for us, but she does have a lot of information. She also proposes that diet and tear staining - among other things - are linked). http://www.dogs4dogs.com/ if any is interested.

I also checked the site you posted for dietary recommendations by breed, but I didn't see Havanese


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## SaydeeMomma

Yeah, it's one of those websites you have to take with a grain of salt. The pet store lady said something about requesting the information on your breed so maybe you'd have to email them. Sorry, I don't know much about it, I was just passing it on in case anyone was interested.

Thanks for the Scared Poopless website - I've got some reading to do!


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## moxie

I'm not sure why everyone is so put off by raw food. I am not a big meat eater, but I do cook it for the men in my life. Feeding raw is painless, there is nothing to "know" in the kitchen. You can buy the frozen medallions which involve very little handling. I keep a special container for storage and utensils for serving that we humans do not use. I wash them in the dishwasher, wash my hands after feeding, no big deal at all. I feel that canned food is nastier. Raw is not smelly nor bloody. And Moxie's digestive system, very luckily, is regular and sound. And for the small amount that he goes through, I find it affordable. 
The whole concept makes such good sense to me. It is hard to imagine how any nutrients can be left in a dried and processed kibble.


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## SaydeeMomma

Debra
So Moxie is pretty much fed medallions? You don't prepare anything else? Does she get any kibble at all? Did she always eat raw or did you transition? I'm so curious because I really don't know a thing about it. You make it sound alot easier than I thought. And what about Salmonella, e coli, etc? What brand medallions do you use?

Moxie has super cute pony tails.


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## moxie

Super cute pigtails.
Thanks, Maya.
I started raw quite soon after I got him. I hated wet foods and the leftover smelly cans in the fridge. I do sprinkle a high quality kibble on top most of the time, but I don't feel that is even necessary. Some people feel they need the added vitamins and minerals in the kibble, but I feel that a nutritious diet takes care of that in a young healthy pup. Some of the frozen foods contain gorgeous ingredients, always unprocessed and closer to "whole" which is my personal philosophy of nutrition in general.
I started with the chubs which are long rolls of raw food which have to be sliced to portion, but would rather not involve a knife, so I pay a little more for the medallions.
As far as e coli; I am careful, I don't touch them and with a reputable brand I am confident in quality. I think the dog's digestive systems are quite sturdier than humans.... when you think of the things they eat (like sidewalk trash  and poop, right?)
And anyway, if you have ever made a meatloaf or hamburg patties, it seems that would be riskier if you really think about it.


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## SaydeeMomma

Debra
Do you use Nature's Variety? I always wondered what is Montmorillonite Clay? Is there a difference between the freeze dried and the medallions? I appreciate all the info. I honestly thought the raw diet was much more involved. It's quite a learning experience for me!


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## Posh's Mom

Debra I totally agree with you. And yet, I was one of the ones put off by raw, basically by the storage. I do use canned food Merrick mixed with Innova EVO dry kibble and Posh has not had a case of poopy butt in months (since I switched from the Nature's Variety Instinct Kibble mixed with Merrick I was feeding) I don't know if it's the EVO or what, but she's doing well so whatever. I do think if I can handle canned, I'd probably be able to handle the medallions...but I was thinking more of a Daniel raw diet-Bogart & Brando's daddy. I think he just goes and buys necks and things. Which is cool, and don't get me wrong, I know Posh is a dog and when my mom comes over with little pieces of steak, boy is she ever ready to "perform."


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## SaydeeMomma

Amy
Me too. I thought raw diet had to be *much* more involved! I was concerned that I wouldn't have the knowledge or ability to provide a good balance for Saydee. But now I might have to try a bag of medallions and see how it flies. I like the theory behind it, and if nothing else it could add flavor and interest to her existing diet.


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## moxie

You are cute, I never met anyone with more questions than me .
I never came across that ingredient, but it doesn't sound like food montmorilite clay??
I love Primal or Steve's for raw. Check them out online, you will love Primal's ingredients and Steve's tries to include some of the supplemental ingredients that kibble has.
I like Evo kibble. I also switch off with a fish based kibble (threw away the bag, forget the name) anchovy based, believe it or not...so over time he gets surf and turf!


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## moxie

OOOOHH I get it, you were thinking about making it like Daniel, no wonder you were overwhelmed! Yikes, I will never do that, but I bet it saves dollars...Too much people cooking in my kitchen to take that on.


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## SaydeeMomma

Debra 
Oh, I've always got questions. I'm forever on a mission to improve and I enjoy hearing what works well for others. That's why I love this forum!

Yeah, I though recipes were being exchanged and I'd need some fancy cookbook and my very own butcher shop to do raw.

Nature's Variety has that weird clay in it's grain free kibble, and it just sounds weird to me. Maybe someone else who knows will chime in here. Hint hint. I'm really liking Evo and might see if I can transition Saydee to that, and then I might just try some of the medallions I hear so much about. The combination of kibble with a bit of raw might be a nice way to go. Thanks for all the tips. I really do appreciate it :biggrin1:


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## Jane

_"Montmorillonite is also used in animal feeds as an anti-caking agent. Current research indicates that montmorillonite or bentonite has the ability to bind mycotoxins in the digestive system of animals as well as several bacteria in-vitro." (from Wikipedia)_

I was also put off by that ingredient in some of the dog foods I looked into. But I guess it has a beneficial purpose.


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## earthnut

Has anyone tried adding livestock probiotics to the food? It's so cheap from the feed store...

edit: I wouldn't worry about the clay. Clean clay is perfectly safe. Just a little extra minerals.  My aunt takes that clay as a 'gut-cleansing' supplement.


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## SaydeeMomma

Hey Earthnut, Domino and Chickens

That's a good thought. What kind of microbials does the livestock probiotic contain?

I'm switching Saydee to Innova and eventually Evo and both products contain some probiotics already: *Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei and Lactobacillus plantarum* (Forgive my spelling if errors)

Ever since Saydee got Giardia I've been giving her a little acidophilus powder each day to help with digestion, hoping the good would overtake the evil )

I don't know the specific purpose of each of the probiotics in the Natura foods, but they are probably to aid in digestion like the acidophilus. I still need to do some more research but I do know these probiotics can help fight yeast which is supposed to be what causes the red staining ...whether it actually helps with tear stains, or something else, it's all good!


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## Renee

I've thought about adding acidophilus to Miley's food. You'll have to let us know if it reduces Saydee's tear stains. I've taken the plastic feeding bowl away from Miley, and I hate to say it too soon, but I think it MIGHT be helping?? Time will tell. That would sure be an easy fix!


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## SaydeeMomma

Renee
I hope it works for you! Someone else on one of these tear stain threads mentioned that taking away the plastic bowl eliminated tear stains for her pup (I wish I could remember who!). We've always used stainless bowls so my hopes are dashed on that front :frusty:


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## LexisMom

I think that acidophilus is a great idea. I was thinking of adding that to Lexi's food as well, but wasn't sure if it would be worth adding. I suppose it would be a good way to promote intestinal health even if it doesn't aid in the yeast/tear stain control.


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## SaydeeMomma

Oh yes, it's great just for regulating digestion. It can't hurt to try it! I know it helps with yeast, soooo (my fingers are crossed).  Innova and Evo already have acidophilus in them, but Saydee's been on Solid Gold until now, so we'll see...


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## LexisMom

Okay, I'm in on the acidophilus too 

I actually just switched Lexi over to Solid Gold Wee Bits from Wellness. The Evo was just too much protein for her I think (runs). Maybe Solid Gold plus acidophilus will help a little. She also loves a spoonful of yogurt every day... the active cultures couldn't hurt I suppose!


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## SaydeeMomma

Good quality yogurt is basically the same thing. I tried plain yogurt on Saydee and she was insulted.


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## LexisMom

That's funny - when I bought the plain yogurt I thought that there was no chance Lexi would like it. She is simply not that interested in any food - but she loves it! When I get the container out of the fridge she is transfixed on it until I give her some.


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## SaydeeMomma

Luckyyyyyy! Give Lexi an earlickie for me. Saydee wants the sweet stuff that everyone else in the fam gets...


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## earthnut

SaydeeMomma said:


> Hey Earthnut, Domino and Chickens
> 
> That's a good thought. What kind of microbials does the livestock probiotic contain?
> 
> I'm switching Saydee to Innova and eventually Evo and both products contain some probiotics already: *Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei and Lactobacillus plantarum* (Forgive my spelling if errors)
> 
> Ever since Saydee got Giardia I've been giving her a little acidophilus powder each day to help with digestion, hoping the good would overtake the evil )
> 
> I don't know the specific purpose of each of the probiotics in the Natura foods, but they are probably to aid in digestion like the acidophilus. I still need to do some more research but I do know these probiotics can help fight yeast which is supposed to be what causes the red staining ...whether it actually helps with tear stains, or something else, it's all good!


The livestock probiotic powder ('Probios') contains sucrose, dried whey (both to feed probiotics), sodium silicoaluminate (anticaking agent), Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus plantarum, and sodium thiosulfate (aids dispersion of powder in water).

I believe acidophilus and the other probiotics all have the same purpose. Acidophilus just happened to be the first species identified and the most commonly grown. Like any other ecosystem, the more complexity (number of species), the more stable the system is and the more resistant to destruction. Therefore, the more species of probiotics, the better.

I know probiotics is effective against an intestinal yeast overgrowth (Candida). An external yeast like the tear staining, however, is in a different place and is a different species and may not be affected. If the animal is taking oral antibiotics, probiotics should help prevent future Candida. I had Candida caused by taking antibiotics. I now avoid sugar (which feeds the yeast) and make sure to take acidophilus pills when I need antibiotics.


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## leena365

I also have a white puppy with tear stains. I was also recommended angel eyes for the solution. I am trying it hope it works?

Leena


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## mintchip

leena365 said:


> I also have a white puppy with tear stains. I was also recommended angel eyes for the solution. I am trying it hope it works?
> 
> Leena


How old is your puppy? Oliver had tear stains as a puppy but they stopped as he got older.


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## leena365

My puppy Kashi is 12 weeks old today


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## mintchip

leena365 said:


> My puppy Kashi is 12 weeks old today


I would wait with the Angeles Eyes


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## leena365

Someone told me to use angel eyes on him everyday and when he turns 3 months old reduce it to 3-4 times a week.

Leena


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## mintchip

Leena-I never used it with Oliver.
I did add yogurt and fresh parsley to his food. I also use a stainless steel bowl for his food


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## marb42

Leena, have you tried the Angel Eyes yet, and did it work? Marble had tear stains as a puppy, and he grew out of them. Now, he's almost three, and he just started getting reddish tear stains last week. I haven't changed his food or anything else in the environement. He just finished getting treated for an ear infection with drops from the vet about two weeks ago, and the tear stains started shortly after. I really feel like it's being caused by an overgrowth of red yeast or some type of bacterial infection (possibly the same thing that caused the ear infection). The areas around his eyes seem slightly more pink than usual. After reading through this thread, I know many are against Angel Eyes and antibiotics, but I think he may need this if it is being caused by a yeast or bacteria. Let me know if it works.


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## leena365

I started using angel eyes on KASHI when I received him 3 weeks ago. I don't know how long it takes to work but I have been using it religiously. I put some in his food every morning. I don't have to worry about MIYA as she is all black around the face. I am keeping my fingers crossed? I am told some white dogs never get rid of this tear staining and we must learn to live with it. 

LEENA


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## marb42

If you have been using it for 3weeks with Kashi, has it helped at all? I wonder how long it should take to show results. At least you don't have to worry about Miya.

My concern with Marble is not cosmetic so much as it appeared out all of sudden, and I feel like it's yeast or bacteria and therefore needs to be treated. I wonder if Angel Eyes isn't strong enough. Maybe he needs the Tylan powder instead. I have a feeling this will end up as another trip to the vetWhy couldn't he have this at the same time as his ear infection? I want to try a natural remedy like yogurt, but he has a history of food allergies, so I'm reluctant.


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## leena365

I have not noticed that much of a difference with the use of this product. I am going to ask my VET if it really is helpful. It was told to me by other Havanese dog owners. Yes thankfully I do not have to worry about it with MIYA.

LEENA


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## Becky Chittenden

I use Tylan Powder, a lot of show people of different breeds do. It works. It is a chicken antibiotic, but doesn't seem to interfere with any treatments the dog might need. It won't get rid of present stains, just keep new ones from forming. I get it from Natures Farmacy. I also use bottled water since we have a well and no matter how much you filter it, there are some residues.


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## leena365

I spoke to the VET today and he said not many people have seen results with angel eyes. A good eye wipe is all he suggested I use for KASHI. I don't know if I should finish up the bottle I bought on line or not?

Leena


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## marb42

Becky, do you know what dosage is safe? I have heard things like 1/32nd of a teaspoon. I don't know how to measure something like that. Do you just mix the powder with water? If anyone knows the safe dose, I'd appreciate it. I just want something that will cure this yeast.


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## Ana's Mojito

traceyrives said:


> Has anyone heard of using hydrogen peroxide 3%, milk of magnesia, and corn starch? I just found this on the internet somewhere. I'm curious if it could be dangerous at all and if it works.


I used it on Mojito some time ago (probably more than a year ago) and it didn't do a thing, until I had the nerve to add peroxide to the mix... DON'T! I fried my poor Hav's mustache. It's grown and silky now, but I'd never do it again. I just found in his dry food label it contains beet pulp!! no wonder.... Looking for a premium dog kibble that has no beet in it. any suggestions?


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## Ana's Mojito

Becky Chittenden said:


> I use Tylan Powder, a lot of show people of different breeds do. It works. It is a chicken antibiotic, but doesn't seem to interfere with any treatments the dog might need. It won't get rid of present stains, just keep new ones from forming. I get it from Natures Farmacy. I also use bottled water since we have a well and no matter how much you filter it, there are some residues.


Hi, any suggestions on how to get them to eat it? Mojito will sniff the Angel Eyes from a mile away and since the first try, decided that he hates it... I've tried with liver which he loves, cheese, and nothing works... ( Any suggestions?


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## Sheri

Have you tried putting it into a piece of liverwurst and rolling it up? That worked for us. Give a smidgen of plain liverwurst first, then quickly pop into his mouth the piece with the med, then immediately hold another tiny morsel in front of his nose so he swallows fast and wants the last piece.


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## TnTWalter

I've done it all...Winston went through a bad phase and tried everything. The best to remove the stains once there was the angel eyes OOPS I meant eye envy liquid + powder. The MOM mix was just messy. I've also done Angel Eyes powder that put in food which does work but I haven't had to use it since keeping him on Fromm's.
I find that dog food makes the most difference. Fromm's works the best.

Water in a stainless or porclein or from a bottle etc. didn't make any difference IMHO. Distilled vs regular no difference. I use filtered water from our sink.

Get a little plastic comb [I bought a cheap-o plastic one from walmart] and keep the eye buggies out daily and Fromm's dog food.

If you do a lot of treats, I'd check ingredients too!

Good luck!


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## Renee

Ana's Mojito said:


> I just found in his dry food label it contains beet pulp!! no wonder.... Looking for a premium dog kibble that has no beet in it. any suggestions?


Beet pulp has no "color". It doesn't come from the purple beets you are thinking of. It comes from sugar beets. So it would not affect tear stains, as one might think.


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## Renee

marb42 said:


> Becky, do you know what dosage is safe? I have heard things like 1/32nd of a teaspoon. I don't know how to measure something like that. Do you just mix the powder with water? If anyone knows the safe dose, I'd appreciate it. I just want something that will cure this yeast.


My vet recommended 1/16th of a tsp, but I used even less (1/32nd of a tsp) for 6 weeks. I put it in a piece of cheese, or something moist I knew she'd lap up. Worked for us. And I wouldn't hesistate to use it again if I needed to.


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## good buddy

Ana's Mojito said:


> Hi, any suggestions on how to get them to eat it? Mojito will sniff the Angel Eyes from a mile away and since the first try, decided that he hates it... I've tried with liver which he loves, cheese, and nothing works... ( Any suggestions?


I've given the tylan powder mixed into peanut butter or mixed into a squirt of salmon oil and then stirred into their kibble. Scary idea with the peroxide. I'm glad Mojito is doing better now! I also use bottled water and they drink from a water bottle.


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## Becky Chittenden

I hadn't checked this in a while and didn't realize I'd been asked a question. There is a tiny scoop in the jar of tylan powder and I give them a scoop over their food at dinner and put water on the food. I think it is 1/16 of a spoonful but it might be 1/4. Apparently you give the same amount to small dogs as large ones.
Commenting on the peroxide mix, 20 or more years ago people used a peroxide mix to get rid of Georgia clay stains that we'd get if you went to a show there and it was raining (most shows were outdoors). The last time I used it, I had a small cut and some got on it. That hurt so badly I decided I'd never use it again. A small scratch on a dog with hair can be overlooked so easily. Becky


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