# cotton vs silky



## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

I have a question?????
If you have a cotton coat Hav do they always stay cotton, is there a way to have them less poofy frizzy, and more silky???
Supplements, oiling, special coat product?


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## Chasza (Dec 10, 2008)

I would like to add to this question....and ask:

Some coats look like wavy 'terrier' coats. They aren't fly-away cottony, and they aren't brushed out silky. What would one ask for or be looking for if one liked the wavy coat ...especially the look on puppies or in puppy coats that can somewhat look like some terrier coats -- obviously this is not from a judges point of view 

And, the cottony coats tend to mat more (but I assume if left in a puppy cut, then this would not matter much?). The silk coats mat less, but require as much brushing. How would the wavy coat fit in here.

If you'all start laughing here, it's ok. I realize that I may be asking a totally silly question to many of you......but it's been something I've been wondering about for awhile now. 

I sure hope I didn't offend by tagging my question on to Sam's question


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

One of mine is cottony, Scooter, and everyone thinks he's a poodle. We tried letting him grow out a bit but he just got poofier and was very hard to brush through so he got a puppy cut and it suits him, he's adorable. Murphy has long, silky hair but at the start of his hips it gets a little frizzy and mats more.


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

Harry is a soft frizzy cottony coat that has become wavier as he has gotten older. He just recently has started to mat, but not sure if thats just because he's cottony, or he is starting to blow out his puppy coat, bad condtioning products or less frequent brushing.
So, that being said I have heard on this forum that the cottony coats can be improved upon depending on the products/supplements used....


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Nobody matted more than Milo and he has the silkiest coat. Bailey has a much thicker coat and although I'm ready to tear my hair out with this blowing coat stage, the actual mats are just a little bit easier to work through.

As for making them silky, I'm not sure. Does the fish oil do any of that? Both my boys have silky coats, though totally different.


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## Redorr (Feb 2, 2008)

Lola has a wavy, cottony coat. She is nearly 2, and I have gone through 2 rounds of blowing coat. I had to have her shaved each time. Now I keep her at 1-2" and we are both happier. I think the wavy, almost curly coat needs to be shorter. I look at pictures of Amy's Posh or Lina's Kubrick and sometimes wish Lola had that type of long silky coat, but I love Lola in a puppy cut. Her coat is more like a terrier or doodle. Hey, in the 80s i permed my straight hair, so we want what we can't have, no?

I do give her a great supplement with Omega fatty acids. From a natural pet store. It has kept her skin clear, no bitting or licking problems. Right after grooming her coat is so soft and silky, I can't stop hugging and nuzzling her. Probably has contributed to her Separation anxiety issues!


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## ECudmore (Jun 5, 2007)

Racquet has the curly wooly coat and I keep him long puppy cut. He is very large and I keep his head area cut like a bichon, therefore, every person ask if he is bichon or a miniature sheep dog. I give him coconut and olive oil in his diet.


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

One thing that can make a difference is how you dry the coat. I still am using my people dryer, but I'm hoping when I get my force dryer I will get a little better at pull drying. I think the wood pin brush seems to work well for this. 
If you blow it until it's almost dry, then brush it quickly while you dry it until it's bone dry, you can get the coat smoother and silkier feeling.

I have one that is silky, Emma, and one that is thicker, curlier, more bushy, Cooper, but neither of them mat the way my Maltese does.

While Cooper feels very soft, he doesn't have that silky look and drape that Emma has. For now I'm going to keep Cooper in a puppy cut of some sort and Emma is growing out fairly long. I would love to cord Cooper, and I think his hair would do it all by itself, but I just don't feel comfortable doing it without someone in the area coaching me.

Beverly


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

DH wants me to cord Scooter. I can barely do my own hair much less do that. He's lost his mind.


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## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

Bentley has the silky coat and Evye the cottony, poofy, fly-away. When I pick her up from the groomers she looks about 5 times bigger than she actually is.


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

Evye's Mom said:


> Bentley has the silky coat and Evye the cottony, poofy, fly-away. When I pick her up from the groomers she looks about 5 times bigger than she actually is.


Dexter is silky. Sharlene, I love your little picture of your pups especially Evye in her long fly away hair!

I was told you can feel the difference between the silky and cottony hair when they are young pups. I would not of known the difference just looking at the pups.


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

*Have U gotten a cotton to go silky?*

Has anyone managed to get their frizzy, poofy cotton coat to go more silky????
And how did you do it?


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I do think there is some difference depending on the shampoo you use. My boys coats are much silkier with the PlumSilky or the Isle Of Dogs shampoo and the conditioners than it was with anything else.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

*"I sure hope I didn't offend by tagging my question on to Sam's question ."*

Oh yes, Chere. That definitely deserves a boot from the forum! :fish: :banplease: :brick: ound:

These are all good questions, so ask away! 

Beverly described it very well. Combing/brushing through while blow drying will straighten out a coat and make it a bit smoother. There are great conditioners out there and soaking a dog in some, mixed with water, is a good way to condition its coat. If your Hav has cottony hair, though, you can't make it much silkier other than using this drying method. It will help, but not change the hair type.

Ricky has more cottony areas than Sammy does, but still has a silky head, ears and neck. Sammy has a thin cottony layer over silky hair and it's the only part that mats, really. His are more easy to get out than Ricky's mats are.

There are several threads on products, so no point in repeating, but even with supplements, good diet, and blow drying, you're not going to completely change a coat. It's in their genes.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I don't see how you can change the texture of a dog's hair (just the same way you can't change the texture of your own hair), but if a dog has a drier, more brittle coat, you may be able to assist it with conditioning from the inside & out (a fatty supplement added to food and a good conditioning product on the outside). Grooming is going to help, and blow-drying hair while combing instead of letting it air dry will help even more.

In short, a coat that is more cottony needs more work, but you won't truly change it.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

I am wondering too if the thickness of the hair shaft itself matters - it seems like the finer, thinner hair mats more easily than the thicker, coarser hair. Both my boys have some of each on their bodies.


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

I had two girls from my last litter that were the same color, yet had very different coats.
One is very silky, the other very cottony. I can tell you the cottony coat matts more and def sheds more. It's still very soft feeling, but looks very different. 
I don't think there is anyway to change the texture of their hair, it is what it is!!


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Havtahava said:


> I don't see how you can change the texture of a dog's hair (just the same way you can't change the texture of your own hair), but if a dog has a drier, more brittle coat, you may be able to assist it with conditioning from the inside & out (a fatty supplement added to food and a good conditioning product on the outside). Grooming is going to help, and blow-drying hair while combing instead of letting it air dry will help even more.
> 
> In short, a coat that is more cottony needs more work, but you won't truly change it.


I'm not a breeder, but would have to agree with Kimberly. I don't see how you could change the texture, unless maybe Keratin or Japanese straightening. :biggrin1:

I have one with a silky/wavy coat and one with a combination cotton/silky coat. I find Shelby (silky/wavy) mats much more than cotton ball Kodi. They also have very dry coatsd and the vet recommended Pfizer EF Liquid (essential fatty acids) and I am very pleased with the results so far. They are much softer and are getting the shine back to their coats. You can feel the oils in the hair again. But Kodi is still the cotton type of coat, that hasn't changed.


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## Chasza (Dec 10, 2008)

Marj,

I have been on other forums where, ummm, apparently, I think I came across as too "know-it-all", rather than it being taken as my point of view. So, I've tried to be cautious about that not happening here.

But, I think I've got it figured out -- about this forum. I think that everyone here is much more relaxed in general b/c of their fur-kids. Maybe the Hav is just extra good for people's temperment and so people here are perhaps less likely to take offense. 
And, it does feel a bit more like good friends hanging out here. :tea: Love that!

Now, I've another question:

So, if I go to a smaller venue show, would I be likely to find cottony hair types, or just the silky hair types? There will be a show in my town this fall, and I am wondering if a variety of coats will be there or not (not that anyone can say for sure, but don't know if the cottony coat is acceptable for showing)??

And, are both coats produced from the same litter? I assumed that most breed for the silky version, but maybe not since they 'silk' people tried to split off from the main group. Also, I guess that even if one were to breed strictly for silky coat, that there still might be a 'throw-back' of another coat type, just as there is the shavanese. So, does this mean that the cottony or the wavy type is just as acceptable show-wise as the silkier version?


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

I think we're lucky that we have one of each, I love the way both of them feel and it's nice to see the difference.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Chasza, those are good points. I've seen Havs with cottony coats win in the ring. I would assume the silkier coats show better movement so might win more often, but I have no stats to back that up. I know of some breeders that have Havs with more of the cotton type of coat in their lines and they still show, win points, and breed so I'm assuming it's acceptable. 

In Europe, the crinkly, barely brushed look is the standard and, personally, I prefer that to the more straight, blow-dried look we see in the U.S. and here just because to me that is what a Havenese is. My personal opinion only! 

Having said that, I was taken aback by Sammy's coat when we picked him up because I just had Ricky to compare to and I complained about the thinness of Sammy's coat for months and months. Now, I'm very happy to have such an easy coat to care for! lol They are very different from each other and as Ann has said, I love having such different Havs. Funny how that works out.


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

Yes, you can get both cottony and silky from the same litter---


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Kubrick's coat is definitely wavy. It has a mixture of silk and cotton in it:


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Chasza said:


> Now, I've another question:
> 
> So, if I go to a smaller venue show, would I be likely to find cottony hair types, or just the silky hair types? There will be a show in my town this fall, and I am wondering if a variety of coats will be there or not (not that anyone can say for sure, but don't know if the cottony coat is acceptable for showing)??
> 
> And, are both coats produced from the same litter? I assumed that most breed for the silky version, but maybe not since they 'silk' people tried to split off from the main group. Also, I guess that even if one were to breed strictly for silky coat, that there still might be a 'throw-back' of another coat type, just as there is the shavanese. So, does this mean that the cottony or the wavy type is just as acceptable show-wise as the silkier version?


By the way, is Chasza your name? I started to call you Chaz or Chas, but just thought this may be your full name and I don't like to shorten people's names without them doing so (e.g. Kim for Kimberly).

If you go to our breed standard, you'll see that the texture & wave/curl are discussed:


> Rather, it is soft and light in texture throughout, though the outer coat carries slightly more weight. The long hair is abundant and, ideally, wavy. An ideal coat will not be so profuse nor overly long as to obscure the natural lines of the dog... A single, flat coat or an excessively curly coat are equally contrary to type and should be faulted.


So, yes, you'll see several coats in the ring, but there is a preferred coat.

And just for the record, a group of people splitting off and doing their own thing (with one of the names that has been used for our breed) has nothing to do with the Havanese people nor our dogs. They do their thing and we are continuing to work on improving our breed. It is annoying to read things as if they are impacting us. They aren't.

Marj, I was going to quote you about the coats and winning in the show ring, but I need to get over to do other things and am too lazy to go grab it and quote it too.  A crappy coat can still win in the ring because a judge is considering the whole dog. Yes, the coat is what you see first, but a judge is evaluating the conformation of *the whole dog *- especially structure. A dog that isn't built well shouldn't win no matter how gorgeous his/her coat is.


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## dneese (Jun 25, 2009)

I just rescued my black havanese about two months ago. She was given to me after she was shaved down completely for some reasion. Her fur is growing in but it is very silky in front and is cottony in the back. It seems to be getting more and more cotton as time passes. I dont know if its just her fur growing, or if its the slicker brush im using. I was spraying her with an organic deodorizer in between baths and now im using a leave in conditioner. The conditioner is helping a little, but I cant get her to look consistent. The cottony part looks very broken and uneven. The curl doesnt bother me. I think its beautiful. But I just hope I'm not damaging her coat with what I am doing either.


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

Chasza said:


> Marj,
> 
> I have been on other forums where, ummm, apparently, I think I came across as too "know-it-all", rather than it being taken as my point of view. So, I've tried to be cautious about that not happening here.
> 
> ...


YOU MAY WANT TO POST THIS QUESTION IN THE show/breeders forum, you may get more "expert" answers.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

dneese said:


> I just rescued my black havanese about two months ago. She was given to me after she was shaved down completely for some reasion. Her fur is growing in but it is very silky in front and is cottony in the back. It seems to be getting more and more cotton as time passes. I dont know if its just her fur growing, or if its the slicker brush im using. I was spraying her with an organic deodorizer in between baths and now im using a leave in conditioner. The conditioner is helping a little, but I cant get her to look consistent. The cottony part looks very broken and uneven. The curl doesnt bother me. I think its beautiful. But I just hope I'm not damaging her coat with what I am doing either.


Don't use a slicker brush! Unless you want her to stay really short, slickers will only create more mats (because it pulls out hair that when it grows in has the same effect as blowing coat) and will make it worse for grooming. A nice pin brush (no balls on the end) is perfect for grooming.


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

dneese said:


> I just rescued my black havanese about two months ago. She was given to me after she was shaved down completely for some reasion. Her fur is growing in but it is very silky in front and is cottony in the back. It seems to be getting more and more cotton as time passes. I dont know if its just her fur growing, or if its the slicker brush im using. I was spraying her with an organic deodorizer in between baths and now im using a leave in conditioner. The conditioner is helping a little, but I cant get her to look consistent. The cottony part looks very broken and uneven. The curl doesnt bother me. I think its beautiful. But I just hope I'm not damaging her coat with what I am doing either.


Try the coat handler and a CC brush.... I converted and am glad for it. Search through the grooming threads, ton of good info from all these wonderful "experts"


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

Will there be a CC rep at Nationals?


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## Mraymo (Oct 30, 2007)

Anne - I think there will be a CC rep at Nationals. Every show I've been to has had one (I've only been to 3 but...). I am planning on getting a wooden pin brush. I already have one brush and 2 of their combs and I love them all.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

Great! I'd like to see them before I spend so much money on a brush.


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## Jan D (Mar 13, 2007)

I've been putting salmon oil in Havee's food for a couple of months now and I think it's improved his coat. It's gotten very soft and the courser areas seem less course!


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## Chasza (Dec 10, 2008)

Kimberly,

Thank you for posting the section from the breed standard.

My name is Lynn, and I should try better to remember to place it at the bottom of all of my posts. This name was taken as user name when I joined, so I used the name of one of my dogs.


You said the following: And just for the record, a group of people splitting off and doing their own thing (with one of the names that has been used for our breed) has nothing to do with the Havanese people nor our dogs. They do their thing and we are continuing to work on improving our breed. It is annoying to read things as if they are impacting us. They aren't.

My reply to this is to say that I never implied that what they are doing had any lasting impact on the original group as if you couldn't carry on without them. I was unaware of this breed until about 8 months ago, so the vast amount of details about this event happening are details that I am not aware of. In other words, I don't have the low-down skinny on what it was all about, and quite frankly, haven't the time at the moment to spend trying to sort thru it all. 

I disagree, tho, that it has nothing to do with the Havanese people/dogs since they are apparently the same breed, but I suppose they are breeding for somewhat different qualities. From this perspective, it made sense for me to mention it as I was trying to understand the differences in coat. I am sure there were alot of hurt feelings about whatever did happen, and my apologies if I touched on a sore spot. But, the fact remains, that for those of us that are new to this breed, we do hear snippets here and there and it doesn't make alot of sense to us. For all I know, it might even be a similiar issue as to what happened between the Jack Russell and the Parson Russell. And those details are sketchy to me as well. For this reason, I quite imagine that this will continue to be an issue that is brought up for clarification. I also imagine that the vast majority of people asking about it don't mean any harm at all --- although I am quite sure that those that have been in the breed for a long time are simply tired of the subject.

Lynn


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## DAJsMom (Oct 27, 2006)

My two have totally different coats. Dusty has a ton of hair, it's more cottony and much more wavy. Indie's is straighter, more silky, not nearly as thick and grows much longer--her tail drags the floor now. I can't say that one is easier or harder to take care of than the other. Just different. I can go about the same amount of time between brushing and bathing, and grooming takes about the same amount of time, but it does take much longer to get Dusty washed and dried just because she has so much more coat than Indie. Indie's straighter coat is easier to brush through in general.
I have supplemented with fish oil and it's been good for both their coats, but they just seem healthier, not different in texture. 
I've only been to a couple of smallish shows, and I saw a variety of coat types at both. I've never actually seen another hav in person with a coat like Dusty's. Most I see have something in between Dusty's and Indie's


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## Mraymo (Oct 30, 2007)

Chasza said:


> My name is Lynn, and I should try better to remember to place it at the bottom of all of my posts. This name was taken as user name when I joined, so I used the name of one of my dogs.


Lynn - You can add your name to your signature so it will show up with every post, if you'd like. Go to the User CP and add it there.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Yes, dneese, using a slicker can cause hair to break so I would avoid it. Ricky has a very silky head and neck, but the back half of him used to be very cottony (not as much now). I was using Ice on Ice, but found it to make things worse, so stopped that. If you can condition well when washing your new Hav, that might help, but as we've mentioned the cottony hairs are genetically wired to be that way and they won't likely be silky as the rest of the body, in your case. With age, maybe the hair will change, as it's been doing for Ricky. 

Thanks, Kimberly. I realize that the whole dog is what is being judged, but to those watching, the coats are what some seem to focus on first. My eye always tends to go to the gait as I just love seeing a Hav prance about the ring. That is what makes me smile and love this breed.  The gait and their eyes. sigh...........


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## RikiDaisyDixie (Apr 15, 2008)

*Well you can use a staightening iron!*

I was reading in the grooming magazine that sometimes they do this. Better not get caught doing this for a show.

Riki is silky where he is white, and cottony where he is silver. Daisy is super silky where she is white, silky but wavy where she is black.

It is inherited from the parents. That is why it is good to know the parents. And it can come though the genes from different dogs in the breeding program.

Daisy has a stepbrother that is thick and silky, gorgeous coat.


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## RikiDaisyDixie (Apr 15, 2008)

*Groomer to groomer magazine has article on coat type*

Check this out:
http://www.groomertogroomer.com/julyaug09/frames/july_aug_09.html#/38/


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

With the few shows I attend as a Havanese owner, I have seen "professionals & owner handlers" use flat irons, curling irons, back combing & hair spray to keep the hair out of the eyes, so it is done all the time. Different breeds use white chalk to make the white whiter, black chalk to make the black blacker. It has been going on since the beginning of dog shows. Heck some people would tattoo or remove a white haw on a Boxer. 

I would have to Smarty has the more cottony type of coat, but it like silk when you run your hands through it and her hair is always shinny & super soft, never has it been dull. Many of the dogs I saw at the show had flatter coats like Galen’s is now and they are also duller and appear dryer. Not a lot of shine to these coats.

In fact when I went to Virginia to a certain show, 2 years ago, where a very large group of Havanese that were suppose to have “silk coats” were, I was very disappointed in the silk texture of these coats as it was in no way what I had expected. Most were very faded and dry looking even the young dogs. So I am not sure I really know what a silk coat is.


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## fibtaylo (Jan 14, 2009)

I would be curious to know if there is any corralation between color and texture?

My black and white has very silky black, but the white is cottony (poofy), but still really soft. My sable has that same texture of white, her orange hair is silky, and her over-laying grey hair is very rough and wirey. They are sisters, but completely different in both hair and build.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I have been surprised about seeing people iron as well and right in front without even hiding it here. Maybe I just didn't see it in Cali/Mich/Ohio but down in the south, I have seen plenty of exhibitors-havs and other breeds have it within feet of judging and not try to hide it. But then again my hair looks a lot nicer if I iron it too but if I did it all the time, I wouldn't have much. And coat is only one aspect of judging or should be.

Barb- My Dora's coat is very easy to see the difference on. Where she has black (although she tends to look cream or silver in pics- she isn't actually at all) She is pretty white with some black through her coat, some sable, and she is getting this carmel color behind her ears if Dash wouldn't grab her by that spot so much. But where she has color, her hair is dead straight and more silky. Where she is just white like on the hocks, she gets a lot of wave and there is where I can honestly say she has a double coat.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

fibtaylo said:


> I would be curious to know if there is any corralation between color and texture?
> 
> My black and white has very silky black, but the white is cottony (poofy), but still really soft. My sable has that same texture of white, her orange hair is silky, and her over-laying grey hair is very rough and wirey. They are sisters, but completely different in both hair and build.


I noticed that too when I got my first hav, a black and white. My breeder agreed that the different colors can feel different. But it isn't always the case that the black will be silky, for instance. On Lincoln, his black is the driest hair. The white is more silky and much less prone to breakage.


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## RikiDaisyDixie (Apr 15, 2008)

*My human breeding program! My joke...*

I had three sisters. Both of our parents had dark hair that was silky slightly wavy, my mom had hazel eyes and my dad dark brown. 
I had brown curly hair that was cottony, with dark brown eyes.
Lori was light brown, very silky hair, and almost black eyes.
Lisa was dark brown, thick and smooth, and green eyes.
Lorelei was blond with thick, smooth, slightly wavy hair, and blue eyes.

We are friends with Riki's sister's family. She has a very thick coat like him, but not cottony. She is smoother. They are the same color

We also know Daisy's cousins, they both have very thick, thick smooth silky coats! Daisy has a thinner coat, very wavy, and it never grew to the ground as Riki's did.

Both of my dogs are softer, silkier in the white areas and less smooth in the darker areas, especially near the rear close to the tail on the back.

One time I took a straightener iron to Riki's coat, and what a show dog! If I am really careful when blowing dry, I can get that cottony wavy coat into a perfect coif for about a half an hour until he gets into something. Maybe this is why you cannot touch a show dog!

Some dogs in shows are still in puppy coats, which seems to be always softer than adult coats in most dogs, but not all.

So from our original gene pool, there could have been an assortment of coats...and these continue to pass genes back and forth through this fantastic breed of characters.

And mine keep changing...Daisy has started turning into a dalmation wherever she is white...and more and more black is coming in...so maybe she will turn all black eventually.

Riki's silver changes from med. brown to dark grey to silver/silver every few months...


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