# Socializing your Puppy



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Several people have recently asked questions about socialization. One of my favorite trainers, Denise Fenzi, just wrote this blog on the subject that I thought I'd share with you:

http://denisefenzi.com/2013/07/31/socialization/


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## Regina (Mar 9, 2013)

Great article Karen! I especially liked when she mentioned not to pass the puppy around.


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## DebW (Jun 11, 2013)

I guess, as with raising kids, different trainers have different opinions.

We're taking a puppy class. At the end of the class, we played "pass the puppy". We'd pass each dog one to the right, then the trainer would give us a simple instruction - like "look under the dog's ear" or "massage his rear paw".

I mentioned the exercise to a friend who is also a veterinarian. Her reaction: "God bless that trainer!"


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

DebW said:


> I guess, as with raising kids, different trainers have different opinions.
> 
> We're taking a puppy class. At the end of the class, we played "pass the puppy". We'd pass each dog one to the right, then the trainer would give us a simple instruction - like "look under the dog's ear" or "massage his rear paw".
> 
> I mentioned the exercise to a friend who is also a veterinarian. Her reaction: "God bless that trainer!"


Yes, I can see both sides of that one. If the puppies are fine with it, then it's fine to pass them. We all want our dogs to accept being handled by different professionals. Denise I'm sure comes at it from a different view point in that she works with Malinois, which are protection-bred dogs, REALLY good performance dogs is trained well,but tending to be shy, one-person (or one-family) dogs. I suspect that she has to work with her guys a lot more slowly on accepting handling by other people, and would NOT want it done by a bunch of novices in a puppy class. Too much potential for a bad experience for the pup. Our dogs have a much different disposition, and a good tempered Havanese puppy will probably not have problems being passed around to other people. It also makes a difference what the eventual plans are for the dog. You don't WANT your performance animal running up to everyone to say "Hi". You want them to look to you, as their handler, first, in all situations.

Don't dismiss the entire article over one thing you don't agree with, though. There is a lot of good info in this article, even if you disagree with the "pass the puppy" part.

Oh, and incidentally, my training center does NOT do "pass the puppy". During free play, puppies are allowed to approach other people when they are ready, and the other owners are encouraged to stroke and play with them at this time. Never is a puppy forced into someone else's lap. This makes sense on a lot of levels. Some puppies, even in puppy K, are simply too big to be on anyone's lap. For some puppies, this is probably not harmful. For ones that are already fearful, this could be completely overwhelming, totally shutting them down.

Also, once a week passing puppies around is NOT enough to get them used to being handled by other people. Owners should be doing this, one person at a time, every day of the puppy's young life. But it should be under controlled conditions. Kodi got handled by many people, but not passed from one person to another, around a room. How often is that going to happen in a dogs "real life?" probably never.

I think Denise's point is to let socialization occur in a natural progression, taking into consideration the basic nature of your dog, using real-life scenarios, not "set-ups". I spent a lot of time with Kodi, when he went through a shy period, having willing strangers (LOTS of 11-13 year old kids are THRILLED to help!!! ) get down on the floor with some treats and just wait. He would eventually come out from behind my legs, go over to check the person out, and once they gave him a cookie, they were friends for life. But again, it wasn't once a week for 6 or 8 weeks. What would this come out to time-wise? Let's say "pass the puppy" takes 10 minutes of class. That means that LESS THAN 1 1/2 HOURS of time has been spent on socializing that puppy with people. I did "meet and greets" with Kodi almost daily, sometimes several times in a day, from 3 months to about 18 months, when he was clearly over his shyness.

As to your vets comment... All he meant was that he wished everyone spent the time that was needed to make their animal easy to work with in the vet's office. Vets are NOT trainers. The majority of vets get little or no education on training animals of any sort. "Pass the puppy" is certainly not the only (or IMO, the best) way of socializing a puppy. It's probably much better than nothing, for the majority of pet dogs.


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## Ruthiec (Jun 18, 2013)

At our Puppy Class, we don't do pass the puppy. However we do an exercise where the dogs are encouraged to sniff each other before meeting face to face. So one owner holds their dog with it's back towards the other for a good sniff, then vice versa. Then the dogs are allowed to meet face to face. If either dog isn't happy then we back off and try with a different partner. It's been really good for Charlie because he used to hate it when other dogs sniffed between his legs etc but now he's quite relaxed about it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ruthiec said:


> At our Puppy Class, we don't do pass the puppy. However we do an exercise where the dogs are encouraged to sniff each other before meeting face to face. So one owner holds their dog with it's back towards the other for a good sniff, then vice versa. Then the dogs are allowed to meet face to face. If either dog isn't happy then we back off and try with a different partner. It's been really good for Charlie because he used to hate it when other dogs sniffed between his legs etc but now he's quite relaxed about it.


Well, "pass the puppy" is supposed to be for socialization with people, where this exercise is, I would assume, for dog/dog socialization. I have to say that I would never agree to do this with my dog or puppy. I don't believe that contact between dogs should EVER be forced. And if you are holding them, they have no way of getting away. IMO, this is a good way to cause reactivity.


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## Ruthiec (Jun 18, 2013)

There's definitely no forcing - it's more about holding one dog in a relaxed stand position and allowing the other dog to approach or not. We do a lot of work in the puppy class around getting them used to a relaxed stand while being handled which has been really helpful for grooming, vet visits etc. 

Interestingly though, while the trainer did talk early on about good approaches to people socialisation, we don't actually do any exercises on that. In class the socialisation focuses on other dogs and on strange sights, sounds or actions (eg skateboards, leaf blowers, party poppers). Socialisation to different environments is an important aspect so we're all encouraged to take our puppies to at least 2 new places a week even if it's just a different beach or street


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ruthiec said:


> There's definitely no forcing - it's more about holding one dog in a relaxed stand position and allowing the other dog to approach or not. We do a lot of work in the puppy class around getting them used to a relaxed stand while being handled which has been really helpful for grooming, vet visits etc.


If one puppy is being held in place and not allowed to move or leave, there is force involved, even if it is minimal. You need to decide for yourself what you feel comfortable with. I would not do this with my puppy. Even in a class, it is your right to say "no" to any exercise you feel might be detrimental to your puppy. We can teach dogs to stand quietly for HUMAN handling without ever forcibly holding them. We do it all the time to teach "Stand for Exam" for obedience or for examination in the breed ring. Likewise, puppies can certainly be taught to appropriately "meet and greet" other dogs without being held. Turning sideways and not allowing the other dog to get to their butt is dog language for, "I'm not ready yet." I can't imagine WHAT a dog is supposed to learn from being made to allow another dog to sniff his butt.



Ruthiec said:


> Interestingly though, while the trainer did talk early on about good approaches to people socialisation, we don't actually do any exercises on that. In class the socialisation focuses on other dogs and on strange sights, sounds or actions (eg skateboards, leaf blowers, party poppers). Socialisation to different environments is an important aspect so we're all encouraged to take our puppies to at least 2 new places a week even if it's just a different beach or street


Dog-dog socialization is usually harder for new owners to orchestrate independently than dog/people socialization, so it's probably good that this is the main focus of the in-class time. Personally, I think twice a week isn't enough if you really want a well socialized dog. I believe that a puppy should go with you, every place that a dog is allowed, every day. This may take some work in the beginning, especially for people who work full time, but it really, REALLY pays big dividends later.


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

At the puppy classes I went to, I dont recall the dogs meeting each other as far as sniffing etc. For example Puppy K, owners had to carry the pup to and from the ring at the start and finish of class. You werent allowed to walk your puppy on a leash in and out of the ring. In class, we sat in a circle with our pups and did various exercises with them, like learning their name etc. We did not handle one another's pups. The instructors did select dogs to demo/try an exercise, but only the instructors handled a person's dog. During the class sometimes we would do something like have the puppy go through a tunnel but the dogs were not touching each other. There was also time on Q&A and during the times when you worked on an exercise, the trainers would roam around and help. 

When I went to beginner it was pretty much the same, the dogs didnt interact such as play etc. It was the same concept, just a progression of exercises like waiting at doorways etc. learning recall, sits and downs. I also did a transitional class and in that one, the dogs were in crates except when we worked with them. It was not until Canine Good Citizen that there was any interaction, and the dogs didnt so much interact as they were supposed to sit by your side when you greeted the owner, or sit with someone when you left the room.

I enjoyed the classes and my puppy did also, especially the crate and clicker classes.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

SJ1998 said:


> At the puppy classes I went to, I dont recall the dogs meeting each other as far as sniffing etc. For example Puppy K, owners had to carry the pup to and from the ring at the start and finish of class. You werent allowed to walk your puppy on a leash in and out of the ring. In class, we sat in a circle with our pups and did various exercises with them, like learning their name etc. We did not handle one another's pups. The instructors did select dogs to demo/try an exercise, but only the instructors handled a person's dog. During the class sometimes we would do something like have the puppy go through a tunnel but the dogs were not touching each other. There was also time on Q&A and during the times when you worked on an exercise, the trainers would roam around and help.
> 
> When I went to beginner it was pretty much the same, the dogs didnt interact such as play etc. It was the same concept, just a progression of exercises like waiting at doorways etc. learning recall, sits and downs. I also did a transitional class and in that one, the dogs were in crates except when we worked with them. It was not until Canine Good Citizen that there was any interaction, and the dogs didnt so much interact as they were supposed to sit by your side when you greeted the owner, or sit with someone when you left the room.
> 
> I enjoyed the classes and my puppy did also, especially the crate and clicker classes.


All of those are good exercises, and worth working on. But that's NOT what puppy K is supposed to be. It is supposed to be MOSTLY about socializing your puppy to other dogs during the critical period for dog/dog socialization.


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

krandall said:


> All of those are good exercises, and worth working on. But that's NOT what puppy K is supposed to be. It is supposed to be MOSTLY about socializing your puppy to other dogs during the critical period for dog/dog socialization.


What should they have done instead? I thought the class was good. I went to a dog training club.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

SJ1998 said:


> What should they have done instead? I thought the class was good. I went to a dog training club.


I'm not saying it wasn't a good "training" class. It may very well have been. But puppy K should be at least half, if not all, off-leash. There should be periods where the puppies are allowed to interact (loose, but under supervision of the trainers, who should step in to keep anyone from getting bullied or overwhelmed) and periods where the owner is then working with their puppy individually either on or off leash, mostly on attention exercises, including "doggy zen" and "puppy push-ups" and, perhaps, also a little loose leash walking. A little work, then the puppies are allowed to play again. On and off, "work" (which should feel like play to them) and play with other pups (where they learn good social skills).


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

krandall said:


> I'm not saying it wasn't a good "training" class. It may very well have been. But puppy K should be at least half, if not all, off-leash. There should be periods where the puppies are allowed to interact (loose, but under supervision of the trainers, who should step in to keep anyone from getting bullied or overwhelmed) and periods where the owner is then working with their puppy individually either on or off leash, mostly on attention exercises, including "doggy zen" and "puppy push-ups" and, perhaps, also a little loose leash walking. A little work, then the puppies are allowed to play again. On and off, "work" (which should feel like play to them) and play with other pups (where they learn good social skills).


Thx, good info to know.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

The article that Karen posted was really good, and I've found many of the subsequent comments interesting; I'm glad I've never heard of 'pass the puppy'! Cuba is four and a half months old now, and I've been anxious about her over-reactive behaviour whenever she sees a strange dog out and about. I took her this week to the wonderful Kay Laurence (UK clicker trainer, truly brilliant). Kay suggested I bring her to a small group that she has on a Thursday evening; all except one of the dogs are adult, all except one are large. Kay feels that puppies learn better from adults, and that many of the puppy classes in the Uk are free-for-all sessions where characteristics, good or bad, are simply reinforced: bullies learn to bully more, shy pups become more shy; there are lots of useful things about these gatherings, but if you do have any issues they are not the place to iron them out. On Thursday we sat in a well-spaced group out of doors, all dogs on leash. Cuba was on my lap, but when she showed keenness to get down I put her on the grass; Kay told me to let her go as far as she wanted up to the extent of her leash, and not to let her pass the collar of any of the other dogs. She took a few paces towards the nearest dog, then retreated to me, set off again, retreated, set off again and got closer - and after a few minutes of this was close enough to sniff and investigate the dog; shortly after that she sat down next to him and then he calmly let her walk around him and eventually snuggle near him. He was a 4 year old Leonberger. He could not have been a better teacher of a puppy who was roughly the size of one of his paws. She went from strength to strength in this environment of safety and calm and ended the class perfectly happily interacting with a male Flatcoat retriever, a female labrador, a male border collie and a female golden retriever, the only other young dog there. The only dog she steered clear of was a small poodle who wasn't too keen to make friends. At one point, when she was tucked up between the Leonberger and the labrador someone said 'excuse me, is this the puppy who is supposed to be fearful of large dogs?' I was very proud of my puppy, and very grateful to Kay for creating an atmosphere in which she could make such spectacular progress. And extremely grateful to the Leonberger, the other dogs there, for being so gentle, and their owners for being experienced and generous in their help. I'm so looking forward to more of these classes.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> The article that Karen posted was really good, and I've found many of the subsequent comments interesting; I'm glad I've never heard of 'pass the puppy'! Cuba is four and a half months old now, and I've been anxious about her over-reactive behaviour whenever she sees a strange dog out and about. I took her this week to the wonderful Kay Laurence (UK clicker trainer, truly brilliant). Kay suggested I bring her to a small group that she has on a Thursday evening; all except one of the dogs are adult, all except one are large. Kay feels that puppies learn better from adults, and that many of the puppy classes in the Uk are free-for-all sessions where characteristics, good or bad, are simply reinforced: bullies learn to bully more, shy pups become more shy; there are lots of useful things about these gatherings, but if you do have any issues they are not the place to iron them out. On Thursday we sat in a well-spaced group out of doors, all dogs on leash. Cuba was on my lap, but when she showed keenness to get down I put her on the grass; Kay told me to let her go as far as she wanted up to the extent of her leash, and not to let her pass the collar of any of the other dogs. She took a few paces towards the nearest dog, then retreated to me, set off again, retreated, set off again and got closer - and after a few minutes of this was close enough to sniff and investigate the dog; shortly after that she sat down next to him and then he calmly let her walk around him and eventually snuggle near him. He was a 4 year old Leonberger. He could not have been a better teacher of a puppy who was roughly the size of one of his paws. She went from strength to strength in this environment of safety and calm and ended the class perfectly happily interacting with a male Flatcoat retriever, a female labrador, a male border collie and a female golden retriever, the only other young dog there. The only dog she steered clear of was a small poodle who wasn't too keen to make friends. At one point, when she was tucked up between the Leonberger and the labrador someone said 'excuse me, is this the puppy who is supposed to be fearful of large dogs?' I was very proud of my puppy, and very grateful to Kay for creating an atmosphere in which she could make such spectacular progress. And extremely grateful to the Leonberger, the other dogs there, for being so gentle, and their owners for being experienced and generous in their help. I'm so looking forward to more of these classes.


It sounds like you've got a wonderful trainer to work with. Fantastic!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

She is really good, Karen. If anyone in the UK wants to know more, go to learningaboutdogs.com and get to a class if you can, she's near Chipping Campden in the Cotswolds, in Gloucestershire. Her many, excellent books are available on Amazon, and no, I don't have shares in any of it!! I am just a devotee whose life with my dogs has been transformed by Kay, so I guess I want to share. I'd add a photograph of Cuba and the Leonberger but I'm being massively stupid and don't know how to attach a photo to a post....I'll get there in the end, I expect - it's tough being a new girl!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

regarding pass the puppy, I think just like any exercise ,it can be done wrong. There are good puppy classes and not so good , that can over stress a young pup. I asked for views on this on our IAABC forum and came up with a general consensus that it is beneficial if done properly. I received one reply from one of the best trainers out there, our president, that I got permission to cross post.... 

" One of the really important parts about raising a dog is to remember not to create a delicate flower who can't tolerate any kind of aversive experience, adversity, strangeness, *differentness* or stress. Life is full of stress, and if we're always protected against it, and then it happens, we have no idea what to do with that.

Part of properly socializing a dog *must* include desensitizing him to weirdness, rudeness, even mild ickiness so that he doesn't fall apart when it happens, and so that he learns that weirdness is, in fact, not weird at all, but normal and a part of living in the world.

Pass the puppy is an excellent intro to that, IMO, because people will hold a leash tighter or looser, loom, stand back, use different voices, hand out treats differently, *act* differently, all in a safe environment with the owner and instructor there to show that, "Meh, so what?" 

If an individual puppy shows "unreasonable" or unusual stress at such mild differentness, then you know you've got a special case on your hands that needs some additional help. Good information to have.

For the same reason I like to have students practice "stay" while pretending to pick up "a broken wine glass" (how often do we really need our dogs to stay while we stand rigid in front of them?), make stupid faces, practice the name game as if they're panicked, annoyed or excited, and basically act as they do in real life. Personally, I like a dog to know that if I say, "NO!" it means, "I'm not kidding don't do that - but you're in no danger for heaven's sake," because that's the kind of thing that happens in real life!

I'm writing this from Spain, where I've spent the last couple of weeks, and I've watched some truly yucky treatment of dogs, at least by my standards. And while not ideal, these dogs' lives are cared for, and the dogs are loved nonetheless. 

Dogs learn to deal with life - or should, and should certainly be allowed to - just the way people do. Putting them in ideological glass cages does not in my opinion do them any favors. So pass the puppy is one important step, done kindly, safely and led by a skilled instructor to boot, toward creating nice, solid, rebound-able dogs who feel safe in the world even when the world isn't following the script we'd like it to. "

Just my 2 Euros.

Marjie

Marjie Alonso
Somerville, MA


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Yup, even among very good trainers you will find a variety of opionions.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Karen is probably more diplomatic than I am! And of course she's right, you do get all sorts of trainers. I'm not all that sure any of us would be thrilled if, at a nursery school, we played 'pass the baby'. I entirely agree that puppies need to grow up in the real world, but we are second guessing what they are afraid of; they might be afraid of heights - it isn't particularly usual to have to be handed around at human waist height; they might not like different scents; they might be thinking 'why is my person doing that to me, and should I be afraid of him/her?' - all number of things could be going on to cause stress and why would we want to stress them about such things when they are presumably already learning a lot from being in a place with lots of strange people and puppies? They are being given no choice, they are unable to escape it. They are not being allowed to discover for themselves that there are weird things out there in the world but that their human will protect them if he/she can. On the contrary, their human is forcing them into things. Just my two pounds sterling, but I wouldn't want to do it.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

I think I've finally managed to upload a photograph?? If so, this is Cuba meeting the Leonberger!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

a good trainer can watch for over stressing., and compensate. No different than any other form of training. eg leash reactivity . Here gradual exposure to aversives is the best approach. Another trainer mentioned " We watch for wallflowers, but in our experience this is the exception not the rule. If a puppy is timid or shy, then the pup gets passed back and forth between one of our assistants and the owner for the first week, but we find that pups come out of their shells by the second week. So many dogs end up not being comfortable being caught and handled by strangers that I feel that mild stress in the name of teaching the puppy that being caught is entirely justified. We don't want pups to shut down, but we do want them to be handled by as wide a variety of people as possible".


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

At the risk of inviting an onslaught of protest, I don't in the least want my puppy to be handled by as many people as possible. I wouldn't want a baby to be handled by as many people as possible. I wouldn't want a child being forced to be handled by strangers. Well-meaning people can undo the good one is trying to do SO easily. There are plenty of people I'd rather keep as far away from my puppy as possible - people who encourage her to jump up, people who try and feed her scraps from the table, people whose dogs are allowed to mug her, people who think it's funny to rough-house with her unrestrainedly; I don't want people charging up to her and patting her on the head in the park any more than I would allow a stranger to come up to a small child and pat it on the head. I don't want, either, ever again to encounter the 2-year old child I met out on a walk in the park and allowed near my 6-year old Coton a few weeks ago who kicked him squarely in the ribs. While my Havanese is a puppy I want to know she is learning positive, good, varied things and having experiences that will make her able to cope in the future with anything that might not be so positive and good; my Coton did not retaliate when the child kicked him because he had, as a puppy, only met children who knew how to behave around puppies. I can entirely understand that other people want to do things differently, but for me I'd rather give my puppy some choice in how she socialises and how she interacts, safe in the knowledge that she can take her time and not be hurried along at my speed even if I am sure she is in the company of people who mean her no harm. She needs to learn to trust me not to push her where she might not care to go until she is ready.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

sory I disagree . Overprotection does more harm than good. 

"Studies by Fox, Scott, Fuller, Dunbar and others show that small amounts of stimulation and stress during the Primary period and during Socialization can produce beneficial results. They noted that improperly socialized pups often develop into older individuals unprepared for adult life and unable to cope with its many challenges."


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

I'm really truly not talking about over-protection, and agree with you wholeheartedly that it does no good. I'm talking about giving the puppy choices. There are really interesting papers that I wish I had time to look up and cite, that suggest that puppies (and adult dogs, and babies, and people) learn far more when they are able to think for themselves. That is why shaping works and why positive reinforcement is far, far better than the gruesome, old-fashioned methods of coercive training.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Lalla said:


> I'm really truly not talking about over-protection, and agree with you wholeheartedly that it does no good. I'm talking about giving the puppy choices. There are really interesting papers that I wish I had time to look up and cite, that suggest that puppies (and adult dogs, and babies, and people) learn far more when they are able to think for themselves. That is why shaping works and why positive reinforcement is far, far better than the gruesome, old-fashioned methods of coercive training.


it's positive reinforcement people that are endorsing this. Ian Dunbar advocates this, and he invented puppy classes. It's people like Cesar Millan that flood dogs and shut down dogs.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

As many have said before, there are differing opinions; not all positive reinforcement people would be in favour of passing the puppy or agree that some stress is a good thing per se. I guess we all have to go with what we are comfortable with and hope that our puppies are, too.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Lalla said:


> As many have said before, there are differing opinions; not all positive reinforcement people would be in favour of passing the puppy or agree that some stress is a good thing per se. I guess we all have to go with what we are comfortable with and hope that our puppies are, too.


that's true not every one will agree. I have trouble when people make broad statements that are not always true. , simply because they don't know how things can be done properly. Thtat's like someone condemning tug.


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## Regina (Mar 9, 2013)

Well,..such a lively conversation this afternoon. I agree with both sides. BUT I agree more with you Lalla. When I had a furbaby, I did let him explore and see things for the first time himself. But not to beat this subject up,...I would not be comfortable with passing my puppy in class. Sorry I do not care what the research says, and yes I tend to be an overprotective Mom, ..and my dog was the friendliest, bravest little boy...he was not afraid of anyone. In my opinion some people just don't know how to hold a dog. He in particular hated it when his feet dangled, he needed to be held under his front legs and supporting his back legs,...if not,...he felt like he was falling and would try and wiggle loose,...this was even into his adult years. Lalla, with the incident in the park with your Coton, I would have died if someone would have done that to my bichon!!!!!!! Did you talk to the parents about their kid??? Did ya kick one of the parents in the ribs?? But your whole paragraph about those incidents is exactly what I am talking about. Yes Dave, you are right in some respects we shouldn't be overprotective,...my neighbors dog is so unsocialized the poor dog litterally jumps when a bug on the ground or butterfly comes near her. And to all of you a question...when exactly are puppy classes supposed to start? After all of their vaccines I would assume? Oh and by the way, I don't condem tug,..but I don't necessarily like to play that with puppies,...the same with rough housing with them and pushing them around like some people do, it just makes them more bitey and want to do it more. No I don't pretend to have the experience that all of the members here have, so take my comments as you wish. I just don't think alot of pushing a pup around is necessary. I want a confident, playful, relaxed puppy/dog, not a bully who is going to bark and carry on whe he sees a dog across the street. My little boy had the best of socialization, becasue he came to work with me everyday,...and no none of my clients picked him up.. only a few of my employees but even that was few and far inbetween but he was able to interact with them, and he turned out great!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

In reply to Dave, I hope you didn't think I was making another broad statement! You are so right, they are not always true - a little learning is a dangerous thing....and we all manage to get on our hobbyhorses and have ideas that are hard to budge, don't we. I'm actually really happy to change my mind if the evidence points me that way - I've never, ever understood our late Prime Minister's (I'm from the UK) brag "the lady's not for turning" - if the evidence suggests that information has been updated, then NOT to turn is just silly.

In reply to Regina, re the kick in the park: well, fortunately the kick was so forceful it knocked the child over, not my dog. I think Tycho was so taken aback and shocked that it didn't seem to occur to him to retaliate in any way, either that or he's more laid back than even I knew. The mother was equally shocked, but didn't speak very much English, so the subsequent, I thought very polite and forbearing on my part (!) exchange might not have had much effect. I did ask her if I might say something to the little boy, and she was happy with that, so I just said 'never, never, ever do that again to any living thing' and hoped that some of it, if only the tone of voice which was calm but firm, might sink in. Thank goodness Tychy DIDN'T retaliate or I daresay I would have been the one in court, horrible thought!


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## Regina (Mar 9, 2013)

Thank goodness Tycho was not injured. When I read your statement I literally felt a punch in my gut. I can't stand it when parents don't properly teach their children not to approach dogs or cats for that matter. The parent and child were very lucky,...this time,..next time they may not be,...and more than likely there will be a next time.
On a lighter note,..I love the picture of Cuba with the Leonberger!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Thank you for your concern, Regina. You are right, next time it could be a whole lot nastier. Or perhaps Tycho taught that little boy an important lesson? Who knows.

As for Cuba and the Leonberger: a perfect illustration of how wonderful it is to take a small puppy to an adult class where the adults, both canine and human, are experienced and kind. She learned more that evening that ever at a puppy class with nothing but puppies, and we'll go back for more. My absolute dog trainer guru, Kay Laurence, who effected the Little and Large introduction, epitomises the best in positive reinforcement training. I don't know her views on 'pass the puppy' but I can hazard a guess, and shall ask her when next I see her. We can't go this week, but I'll be back there next Thursday so shall find out what she thinks and report back! If she says she is all for it then, on experience of how right she is on everything else, I'll be a lady for turning and shall eat humble kibble.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I'm just saying , don't condemn something because of possible negative consequences. no matter what we do in life there are risks. Learning inevitably involves stress , so long as its manageable, we can learn from it and be stronger for having worked with it. One of the biggest problems with small dog syndrome is the owners over protecting their dogs, especially when young. here's a great book by Dr, Sophia Yin, meant for vets but great for anyone. http://drsophiayin.com/lsh/


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## RoutineAvocado (Feb 6, 2013)

Not letting people pick up my dog sounds really weird to me. Not everybody does it her favorite way, but she deals with it fine, they figure it out, and she gives them happy kisses. She isn't always going to have a choice in how she's handled her whole life. If she gets hurt, the vet will have to examine her whether she likes it or not. If she gets something gross on her face, she does not have a choice about getting her face washed. I don't think coddling her will do her any favors.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Thanks, Dave, for the suggestion of the book, I'll check it out - I'm an avid reader! And seriously, I am not condemning ANYTHING!!! And am more than aware that life is full of risks. As we've already said, there are all sorts of different ways to do things; I think one of the great aspects of this forum is that we get to hear diverse views. In reply to RoutineAvocado, of COURSE people I know pick up my dog! I just don't let strangers do so any more, as already said, than I would if she was a small child.


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## Regina (Mar 9, 2013)

Lalla said:


> Thanks, Dave, for the suggestion of the book, I'll check it out - I'm an avid reader! And seriously, I am not condemning ANYTHING!!! And am more than aware that life is full of risks. As we've already said, there are all sorts of different ways to do things; I think one of the great aspects of this forum is that we get to hear diverse views. In reply to RoutineAvocado, of COURSE people I know pick up my dog! I just don't let strangers do so any more, as already said, than I would if she was a small child.


Ditto...


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

with puppy classes you're there to watch who's handling your pup as well as the trainer. Fact is nearly every dog will get handled by strangers sometime in their lives. and this is the time to learn this. IF you can't trust people at puppy classes I don't know who you can trust. A dog that can't be handled by strangers is a dog that is not only dangerous to them but to himself. Reality isn't that cautious.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> Karen is probably more diplomatic than I am! And of course she's right, you do get all sorts of trainers. I'm not all that sure any of us would be thrilled if, at a nursery school, we played 'pass the baby'. I entirely agree that puppies need to grow up in the real world, but we are second guessing what they are afraid of; they might be afraid of heights - it isn't particularly usual to have to be handed around at human waist height; they might not like different scents; they might be thinking 'why is my person doing that to me, and should I be afraid of him/her?' - all number of things could be going on to cause stress and why would we want to stress them about such things when they are presumably already learning a lot from being in a place with lots of strange people and puppies? They are being given no choice, they are unable to escape it. They are not being allowed to discover for themselves that there are weird things out there in the world but that their human will protect them if he/she can. On the contrary, their human is forcing them into things. Just my two pounds sterling, but I wouldn't want to do it.


I agree completely.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> with puppy classes you're there to watch who's handling your pup as well as the trainer. Fact is nearly every dog will get handled by strangers sometime in their lives. and this is the time to learn this. IF you can't trust people at puppy classes I don't know who you can trust. A dog that can't be handled by strangers is a dog that is not only dangerous to them but to himself. Reality isn't that cautious.


I agree COMPLETELY that all puppies should EVENTUALLY get used to being handled by strangers, but not by force and not in such an artificial manner. All competition obedience dogs and all conformation dogs, as well as all those who pass their CGC or TDI testing have to do this. But none of the ones I know are forced this way with "pass the puppy", and they all learn it with time, patience, and persistence on the part of the handler.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Entirely agree, Karen


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> a good trainer can watch for over stressing., and compensate. No different than any other form of training. eg leash reactivity . Here gradual exposure to aversives is the best approach. Another trainer mentioned " We watch for wallflowers, but in our experience this is the exception not the rule. If a puppy is timid or shy, then the pup gets passed back and forth between one of our assistants and the owner for the first week, but we find that pups come out of their shells by the second week. So many dogs end up not being comfortable being caught and handled by strangers that I feel that mild stress in the name of teaching the puppy that being caught is entirely justified. We don't want pups to shut down, but we do want them to be handled by as wide a variety of people as possible".


I suspect these trainers are talking about "pet dogs" who probably get very little training outside puppy K and, perhaps, precious little training of ANY sort once puppy K is over. I guess I live in hope that people will train their dogs right. In my world, among the dog people I know, precious few are difficult for a stranger to handle. I am currently at the National Specilty, and all the dogs are ASKING for attention from strangers, and perfectly willing to sit in a stranger's lap while the owner/handler is busy with something. So all these people did the work necessary with all these dogs toget them comfortable with strangers.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Karen see my article gentling. this is basic knowledge .


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> sory I disagree . Overprotection does more harm than good.
> 
> "Studies by Fox, Scott, Fuller, Dunbar and others show that small amounts of stimulation and stress during the Primary period and during Socialization can produce beneficial results. They noted that improperly socialized pups often develop into older individuals unprepared for adult life and unable to cope with its many challenges."


I don't think either one of us is talking about "over-protection". But CERTAINLY "pass the puppy" is not the only way for a dog to learn good social skills. Kodi has as good social skills as any dog I know, and can easily be handled by anyone I allow to handle him. But he was never "passed" as a puppy.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> it's positive reinforcement people that are endorsing this. Ian Dunbar advocates this, and he invented puppy classes. It's people like Cesar Millan that flood dogs and shut down dogs.


But certainly "pass the puppy" CAN be flooding, if done either without the proper supervision (all too common) with the wrong people (all too common) or to a puppy who is not ready for it.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

all I said was don't criticize something that is beneficial if done properly.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

krandall said:


> But certainly "pass the puppy" CAN be flooding, if done either without the proper supervision (all too common) with the wrong people (all too common) or to a puppy who is not ready for it.


Anything and everything can be detrimental if done by the wrong people without proper supervision.

To judge the effectiveness and/or appropriateness of any training, we must analyze the results when the training is done properly by qualified individuals, not the results when the training is done improperly or by unqualified individuals.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

I've now read some of the Fox,Scott, Fuller,Dunbar paper - I expect there are others; much of what I read is to do with the handling of newborns and up to 8 weeks old by the breeder, and has much interesting stuff about the role of the mother and why it is important to allow a pup to stay with its mother for a longer, rather than shorter time. How it is possible to extrapolate from the paper I read to extolling the benefits of 'pass the puppy' is beyond me, but I'm sure there is as much anecdotal evidence both for and against. And I expect there are other papers that I haven't yet discovered. Let's just all go on learning as best we can.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> Anything and everything can be detrimental if done by the wrong people without proper supervision.
> 
> To judge the effectiveness and/or appropriateness of any training, we must analyze the results when the training is done properly by qualified individuals, not the results when the training is done improperly or by unqualified individuals.


Right. John .. I asked Marjie whether she has had any people problems with this exercise . She has probably had thousands of people do it. here's her reply.... " Think of it this way - you'd have to do something REALLY stupid and bizarre to make it in any way harmful. It just doesn't have to be done that "carefully" because reality isn't that cautious."


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> Right. John .. I asked Marjie whether she has had any people problems with this exercise . She has probably had thousands of people do it. here's her reply.... " Think of it this way - you'd have to do something REALLY stupid and bizarre to make it in any way harmful. It just doesn't have to be done that "carefully" because reality isn't that cautious."


I suppose this training technique is no different than many of the other issues we have discussed. At the end of the day, it is the human who has to be comfortable with it. I may be a new dog owner, but I'm a research guy and read many books, articles and studies before bringing my buddy home. The single most common theme I found in all my research was that dogs respond to our energy and cues. An owner who is uncomfortable with "Pass the Puppy" will probably have a dog that exhibits anxiety being passed.

Gibbs looks directly at me in any new situation to hear those magic words - "It's OK". If I'm OK, then most of the time he's OK.

Occsionally he will decide for himself that it's NOT OK, in which case he'll run over to Dana and look at her as if to say - "Daddy's Nuts!! Will you protect me"


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

Off topic but since a lot of the training posters are in this thread ha ha, what is the best way to handle other people's barking dogs? Last night I took out my hav and lab for their nighttime walk and there was a guy walking his dogs across the street and his dogs started barking uncontrollably. My hav started barking back - not a ton, but some... What's the best thing for me to do?


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

SJ1998 said:


> Off topic but since a lot of the training posters are in this thread ha ha, what is the best way to handle other people's barking dogs? Last night I took out my hav and lab for their nighttime walk and there was a guy walking his dogs across the street and his dogs started barking uncontrollably. My hav started barking back - not a ton, but some... What's the best thing for me to do?


I would advise distance, and it would need to be a greater distance than you would normally give other dogs as these dogs were reacting. You might ask your dogs for attention, or I might feed them while moving away from the other dogs so that at least you could start to put in place a focus behaviour when this sort of thing happens.


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> I would advise distance, and it would need to be a greater distance than you would normally give other dogs as these dogs were reacting. You might ask your dogs for attention, or I might feed them while moving away from the other dogs so that at least you could start to put in place a focus behaviour when this sort of thing happens.


thanks, this is very helpful. I live in a residential area with houses but it is in an urban area and in the next few blocks there are several high rises, so our area is very popular for dog walking. When I first got my hav puppy, I fed him every time we saw a dog, but I've been backing off that...sounds like maybe a little too prematurely I think. Looks like I need to make sure I have cookies at all times!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

I live in the middle of Oxford; we have a lot of urban foxes around and about , and when they start howling or 'barking' (weird sort of double bark-bark, and very loud) my 6 year old Coton barks back in disgust at the invasion of HIS road....so far Cuba hasn't joined the nocturnal chorus, thank goodness; it's not fun at three o'clock in the morning. I sometimes, if I can face getting up and checking it out, see a fox strolling nonchalantly down the middle of the road. I worry, when I go out into the garden at 4:45 (Cuba's reliably inconvenient wake-up/want-to-pee/poo time) that there'll be a fox out there, but I checked with a colleague of my husband's who studies animal behaviour and has done a lot of work on foxes - he says he has never heard of a fox taking a puppy. I know that's not true of coyotes, for example, but happily we don't have them in the middle of Oxford. We do, though, have red kites and they, apparently have been known to take rabbits and other small animals out of people's gardens. Life's just one mass of possible risk, isn't it! It's all a question of learning to live with levels of uncertainty, annoyance, fear etc and not letting it get one down or overwhelm the joys, fun, fulfilment and happiness....sorry, I seem to have threaded my way onto a new topic more or less, but I guess it's loosely related to the barking diversion.


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## DebW (Jun 11, 2013)

Oh my! We have an occasional fox here, but they're rare in the urban areas.

What we do have are coyotes. I live in an urban area, and I've spotted a coyote from my balcony. They occasionally take down small pets in suburban yards.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> I live in the middle of Oxford; we have a lot of urban foxes around and about , and when they start howling or 'barking' (weird sort of double bark-bark, and very loud) my 6 year old Coton barks back in disgust at the invasion of HIS road....so far Cuba hasn't joined the nocturnal chorus, thank goodness; it's not fun at three o'clock in the morning. I sometimes, if I can face getting up and checking it out, see a fox strolling nonchalantly down the middle of the road. I worry, when I go out into the garden at 4:45 (Cuba's reliably inconvenient wake-up/want-to-pee/poo time) that there'll be a fox out there, but I checked with a colleague of my husband's who studies animal behaviour and has done a lot of work on foxes - he says he has never heard of a fox taking a puppy. I know that's not true of coyotes, for example, but happily we don't have them in the middle of Oxford. We do, though, have red kites and they, apparently have been known to take rabbits and other small animals out of people's gardens. Life's just one mass of possible risk, isn't it! It's all a question of learning to live with levels of uncertainty, annoyance, fear etc and not letting it get one down or overwhelm the joys, fun, fulfilment and happiness....sorry, I seem to have threaded my way onto a new topic more or less, but I guess it's loosely related to the barking diversion.


We have foxes that are resident on our property, and coyotes that travel through. the foxes won't even bother a cat. (I've seen cats tormenting a mother fox by purposely sitting too close to a den containing small kits, and the fox STILL does nothing but look worried and make sick-seagull noises) The coyotes, OTOH, account for most of the "disappearances" of cats and small dogs in our town. One year, they also dug out the fox den and took all the kits, which made us VERY sad. We very much enjoy watching the young kits play on our hill.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

DebW said:


> Oh my! We have an occasional fox here, but they're rare in the urban areas.
> 
> What we do have are coyotes. I live in an urban area, and I've spotted a coyote from my balcony. They occasionally take down small pets in suburban yards.


At the hotel where the Specialty was held, there was a nice big field across the parking lot from the hotel. The second morning we were there, we were all warned that a coyote had been intently watching as someone walked their Havanese over there. After that, we all stayed away from that field!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

The coyotes sound really scary, I shall count myself very lucky that I've only got foxes to deal with, then! We don't have coyotes in the UK. It's reassuring, Karen, your cat-tormenting-fox story. I do know someone whose Siamese cat had a run in with a fox, but the cat won though had a nasty torn ear to show for its victory; the fox ran off.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> The coyotes sound really scary, I shall count myself very lucky that I've only got foxes to deal with, then! We don't have coyotes in the UK. It's reassuring, Karen, your cat-tormenting-fox story. I do know someone whose Siamese cat had a run in with a fox, but the cat won though had a nasty torn ear to show for its victory; the fox ran off.


I bet the cat started it!


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