# Puppy Pads...crate training...bell training...ex pen



## Pancakes!

Alrighty, So we're trying to decide on a good training method for our new Pancakes...and we'd like to have supplies and such ready before she comes home...there are just so many methods to puppy training....

I guess overall I am looking for what has worked for everyone the best? I do work on certain days and eventually I would like to be able to trust her so that I don't have to keep her in a crate when I work.....

Would a combination of puppy pads and bell training work or would it confuse her that when I'm home she goes outside but when I'm not she goes on the puppy pad? 

I guess my thing with puppy pads are that they are quite expensive and I'd like her to enjoy going potty outside...

Any help would be greatly appreciated....:ear:


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## Pancakes!

By the way, I have looked through several of the threads and I am just wondering what has worked for everyone else...and any advice...thanks!


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## Paige

I don't know if you will get the best answer for you. As for me I don't use pee pads and used the crate and I bell train. But I am home all day. So what works for me, won't work for someone gone 8 hours everyday. 

I think different methods work for different situations Work/home- house/condo. I think you would be better to find post from others in you same situation. 

Also you have to ask yourself what do you think you would be most comfortable with. Because you will have the most sucess with something that you are more likely to stick to.


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## 3girlsluvHav

*My research*

Hi!! We got our pup in June and I have 3 girls- so I spent months researching what is best, etc. I compiled it in a word document and I will try and paste it below for you- we followed it to a tee pretty much and our pup now 5 months is doing great! Here's the info I HTH!! 
Potty training needs to be done as a progression.

The first step is that the pup is 100% going in the expen in the right place.

When a pup is at first by itself in it's new home we recommend that the expen be folded in so that it's 2x4 with the potty area, whether pad or litter box, is on one end towards where the pup's people will be when it wakes up. Once I have a pup by itself the expen is in the room where my chair is and the litter box is in that end. As soon as the pup wakes up it will automatically come towards me and go into the litter box. I use the desire to come out of the pen as incentive to "go potty" before the pup is allowed to come out and play. I go and stand next to the end where the box is and give the command "go potty"-no eye contact, no smiling, no nothing until the puppy squats to pee. The INSTANT the job is finished I pick the pup up and make much of it and let it run around like a wild thing to play. It usually only takes a couple of days and I will have the pup squatting to pee whether it has to or not on command.

After the pup is 100% going to the box in the 2x4, next another corner is opened up on one end and the box put in the new end so that there is a 2x2 bed area, a 2x2 open area, and the potty area in the other 2x2. If the pup potties on the floor in the pen you need to go back to the 2x4 for a day or so and then try the expansion again.

Once the pup is 100% in the L shaped pen, you can try opening it all the way up, but be prepared to go backwards in size if necessary.

The next stage is to open one side of the pen when you let the pup out to play so that you can play with the pup near the pen and it can go back into the box in the pen to potty. The play area is gradually made larger until the pup has the run of the whole room and will go back to the box. The pup HAS to have CONSTANT supervision. It doesn't count as constant if everything is forgotten and the pup left to run around when the phone rings. If you have to leave the play area while the pup is out he goes back in the pen.

Potty areas staged around the room will not work to start with. The transition can be made to having a potty area but it has to be part of a transition with small steps.

No accidents on the floor is the right number. If the pups have been raised from the start not knowing anything but going in a box or on pads it greatly simplifies things. Yes, no accidents is possible. Our last 5 dogs at least have NEVER pottied on the floor-Roxie, Belle, Posh, Razzle, and Frolic.

The answer to the problem of "accidents" on the floor is that there is too much freedom and/or you are not paying attention. To be able to give complete attention to the pup the first few days is priceless. When the pup is running around playing it will always give some sort of signal that it needs to go potty. Males will have to sniff for a spot and circle, if only for a few seconds, and females will walk a bit differently, if only for a few steps, but they do give a signal.

I call this potty training and say that potty training is separate from house training. Potty training needs to come first, especially for a young puppy.

We only use the crates for the pups to sleep in and then only a day or two before they go home. The expens have a variety of blankets and beds in them for pups to dig in, under, and be able to make a comfortable place for them to sleep. The size is important for potty training purposes. If they pee on the floor or bedding, they have too much room. We suggest that new guardians start with the expen folded in to 2 x 4 but it can quickly be expanded as the pups get used to their new surrounding.

Remember that potty training problems primary causes are too much freedom and not paying attention.

Also you have to be diligent to keep clean bedding in the pen so that they get used to thinking that it's the way it's supposed to be. When our pups have their bedding changed a number of times a day. When they are just a couple of weeks old through the time when they start eating food and are weaning off their mother they will leak some before they can get to the box even though they still go in the box. If they are used to clean bedding they get excited when they see it coming.

We have a system with the litter that ours never think about there being any other way than going in the box. Litter makes it easy to transition to anything else. All you have to do is put a handful of litter where you want them to go. We send new puppies home with a piddle pad folded around a handful of litter. That way the new owner can place that on the car floor or airport or airplane on the way home and fold it back up to put in a ziplock bag. Never heard of it not working.

To me potty training means that they go where you want them to in a very controlled environment and even by command. House training means that you can trust them not to forget with almost unlimited freedom.

They need lots of play time so even from a few weeks old they are taken out of the pen to play right after they potty. Later steps open the side of the expen and play with them close until they will go back to the box on their own. This will work every time with the proper progression. We like litter better than pads or newspaper for several reasons but they seem to go to it better if they are out than they will to piddle pads. We have trained them to newspaper, pads, and litter but like the litter best.

You have to pay attention though. Paying attention doesn't include forgetting that the pup is loose when the telephone rings.

We send pups home potty trained to the litter box but it's easy to mess up. A good start has to help though. I wouldn't want to take a pup who had been raised on a grid floor, like puppy mills do, who have had no incentive to do anything but let it fly anytime and anywhere.

They have the instinct not to soil their bed to start with. Use it to your advantage. We have kept putting a box in with puppies at younger and younger ages and have learned that it's not possible to introduce them to it too early.

I know a number of Havanese who have NEVER had an accident on the floor.

Anyone who says they are hard to housetrain is wrong. You do have to know what you are doing though and have some good advice if you start having problems. I'd say that probably half of our new owners start having problems at some point but Pam or I are able to get them through it quickly if they call.

Assumptions are no replacement for experience.
I missed the question on crate connected to expen. We don't. Nothing wrong with it, we just don't do it. They sleep in the crate at night in our bedroom. A litter box needs to be a few steps away. They will sleep all night long but when a 10 week old pup wakes up they have to go RIGHT NOW. The time will be short until they can hold it longer but at this stage they are still babies and still learning.

At this early stage they are learning mostly by forming habits instead of understanding. As they age their understanding increases to the point that it's really astounding. Set them up to succeed.

Also I've found with new owners who use treats to teach pottying that it's really easy for them to get in trouble. Several people who got our puppies used other advice and started the treat method and started having problems. Pam spent hours on the phone with them, usually the same thing over and over, and went back to the beginning to achieve success. One lady called crying ready for us to take the pup back and Pam finally asked if she wanted to give the pup up or she wanted to fix the problem. The lady said that she loved the pup but her husband was going to make her give it up. Up until then she had been unwilling to accept that the other treat method wouldn't work. The pup was pottying in front of her to get the treat and even waking up in the night pretending to potty to get a treat. She finally agreed to do what Pam said to do. Things were quickly turned back around and this lady now has two Havanese and is a good spokesperson for the breed.

If you start having trouble ask for advice from your breeder right away. We don't use treats, other than incentive to get out of the expen, to potty train.


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## irnfit

I trained them to the pee pads and to go outside. This method just fits our lifestyle because they are left alone part of the day. It is also very convenient when we are travelling with them. I know I will be jinxed by saying this, but we haven't had an accident for quite a while. Even on vacation they were accident free.


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## siggie

I was home all day for the first 2 months and then only gone 2-3 hours, so I bell-trained. He's crated at night and when I'm gone. I had pads out too and Toby used to go on the pads while still learning to ring the bell and slowly getting control of his teeny bladder in that first couple months while we were staying w/ my parents, but since coming to my place, he doesn't like to go on the pads. It's been frustrating when it rains and I don't know what we'll do in the winter. If weather's not an issue for you and you're home a lot, then bell-training would be good.


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## Pancakes!

siggie said:


> I was home all day for the first 2 months and then only gone 2-3 hours, so I bell-trained. He's crated at night and when I'm gone. I had pads out too and Toby used to go on the pads while still learning to ring the bell and slowly getting control of his teeny bladder in that first couple months while we were staying w/ my parents, but since coming to my place, he doesn't like to go on the pads. It's been frustrating when it rains and I don't know what we'll do in the winter. If weather's not an issue for you and you're home a lot, then bell-training would be good.


Well, I live in wisconsin so it's winter from October-ish/November-ish to February or March...that is why I am wondering if it would confuse her if I did bell training and also puppy pads...


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## Cheryl

Many here love the option of pee pads, but I didn't need it. Although you live in chilly WI, I think your dog will be old enough to enjoy going outside in winter. We have several pics online with Havs and the snow. 


Crate training is a priority regardless of what the other options you chose are. Some like bell ringing and some prefer dog doors. Lets get past day one before you make that decision.


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## RikiDaisyDixie

*What worked for us...and Riki is 99% housetrained*

Gloria Dittman gave me this, we did it and it worked. I wasn't as vigilant with Daisy, and she has accidents...

How To Housebreak
by
Gloria S. Dittmann (c)

This article is meant as a companion piece to my article 
HOW TO CRATE TRAIN. The assumption is that those who
are reading this article are crate training their puppies, 
as the crate is an integral part of proper housetraining.

When housebreaking your puppy, two facts must be kept in 
mind. The first that that although the need to keep the den 
clean is instinctive, the puppy has no idea that your entire
house is now his den. It is your responsibility to show 
puppy that the entire house is now the puppy's den and the 
puppy is expected to keep the den clean.

The next fact is that puppies, when it comes to bladder and 
bowel control, are not much different from human infants. Puppies have 
small bladders and bowels at first and virtually NO muscle 
control. While a puppy may intellectually understand the 
housebreaking philosophy within 2-3 weeks, his body takes a 
lot longer to mature to the point where puppy has the 
physical control needed to be clean in the house under all 
conditions. Do not ask, nor expect, a puppy to 'hold it' 
longer than is physically possible for that puppy.

A 3 month old puppy is virtually incapable of going for 
6-8 hours at a time without eliminating even once. If you 
have a full-time job that will keep you out and the puppy crated for 
prolonged periods of time (longer than 3-4 hours), you 
should make arrangements for someone to come in mid-day to 
let puppy out for some exercise and to be able to eliminate.
If this is not possible, you can use an exercise pen (a 
free-standing playpen for dogs) attached to the crate or you 
may place the crate inside the playpen. This 
way, the puppy can sleep in the crate and then exit into the
exercise pen to get some exercise and to eliminate. Be sure 
to place the pen and crate away from walls or 
draperies...puppies LOVE to chew on moldings, plaster and 
drapery fabric!

Now, when puppy first comes home, remember 
that puppies MUST eliminate within 15 minutes after eating, 
immediately after drinking water, immediately upon waking, 
when excited (when company comes, for example or puppy is 
startled by a sudden, loud noise) and during and after play sessions. 
Be sure to take puppy out at these times until you learn 
your puppy's individual needs and schedule. Also keep in 
mind that it takes approximately 2-3 hours for a puppy to 
digest a meal. If you feed your puppy breakfast at 7am and 
then crate it, it is going to have to eliminate by 11am or 
noon at the latest. Keep this in mind when planning your 
crating sessions.

Now, until puppy begins to understand what
is expected of him in terms of housebreaking, it is up to 
the human family members to keep a very close eye on puppy. 
Be sure puppy is always with you except when puppy is 
crated. Puppies will usually give a signal to indicate they 
have to eliminate. They will walk with their noses to the 
ground while sniffing for a likely spot; walk in a circle; 
get 'that look' in their eyes that tells you what is coming.
Close observation of your puppy will soon let you know what 
your pup's individual signal is. When you see it...get puppy
outside as quickly as possible! Take puppy to the same spot 
in the yard each time you take him out, and use a key word 
command such as "DUTY! Do your DUTY!" or whatever word you 
choose to use each time puppy goes. This way, he will begin 
to associate the word with the action and before long, he 
will eliminate on command.

When puppy eliminates, praise him! LOTS of praise! 
Never let puppy out alone to eliminate!
He needs you there to keep him company and to praise him as 
soon as he performs properly. Sometimes it may take puppy a 
while to sniff around and explore before he goes. BE 
PATIENT! Too often people give up after about 15 minutes, 
come in and whammo! Puppy immediately goes on the floor or 
carpeting! You are just not giving puppy enough time 
outside. Puppies have virtually no attention span at this 
age and their memory spans are non-existent as well. They 
need some gentle encouragement to keep their minds on what 
they should be doing. Try not to make this time playtime as 
this will also distract puppy. If you know puppy has to go but
puppy is fooling around and you run out of patience, come back 
inside and place puppy in the crate for 10-15 minutes. Then carry
puppy back outside to the usual spot and wait again. Chances are,
puppy will do his business this time, however if he fails to eliminate
once again, put him back in the crate for another 10-15 minutes and 
then take him back outside and try again.

If puppy does have an 
accident in the house and you do not catch him in the act, do 
NOT punish him! Even if you come in 30 seconds later, let it go. As previously 
stated, puppies have little or no memory span at this age. A
puppy will not associate a scolding or spanking (and it is 
NEVER necessary to spank a puppy for having an accident or for any other reason!)with what happened 30 seconds or 30 minutes ago. Oh, he will
act guilty and contrite, but that is only because he is 
reacting to your body language. Dogs are masters at reading 
the most subtle body language signals we give off almost 
subconsciously. This is how dogs communicate with each 
other, so it is not surprising that they use this talent to 
'read' us as well!

Rubbing a puppy's nose in his mess is an 
old wives tale which does NOT work. All this does is 
confuse the puppy and possibly cause him to resent you for 
what he thinks of as your unreasonable behavior. If you do 
catch the puppy about to have an accident or having one, 
immediately growl "NO! BAD PUPPY!!", pick him UP and rush 
him outside to a spot he is used to going. Now, he is going 
to be very startled by this unexpected development and will
temporarily stop what he was doing or about to do. Just be 
there with him and quietly, in a friendly tone of voice, 
give the word command you are using. Once he does settle 
down and finish what he started, praise him lavishly! Then 
clean the area he soiled inside with a good enzyme 
deodorizer/cleaner.

These products use enzymes to literally 
eat the odor-causing molecules found in all organic matter. 
Conventional cleaners such as Lysol, etc. use perfumes to 
cover up the old urine scent...but only to human noses! 
Canine schnozzes have no trouble at all detecting old urine 
sites. Use of an enzyme product stops this cyclical behavior
(going back to the old site to eliminate) by completely 
eliminating the old scents.

By closely following this program, your puppy should have 
the basics of housebreaking down within a few weeks, although 
each puppy is an individual and will progress according to his own internal 
body schedule. If your puppy is having trouble with VERY 
frequent urination or frequent, loose stool, check with your
vet. Any time a dog's bladder and/or bowel habits change 
suddenly and radically and stay that way for longer than 
about 24 hours, you should check with your vet as well.

And please remember that your puppy is really not much different
from a human infant. Like a baby, a puppy has to be mature 
enough, mentally and physically, in order to completely 
control itself in the house. Be patient with that new 
pup...he has a lot of learning and growing to do in a very 
short period of time! Love and lots of patience will have 
that pup turning into the best dog you've ever owned in no 
time at all!

(c) Copyright 1995 - 2008 Gloria S. Dittmann. All Rights
Reserved. Any reproduction, in whole or in 
part, in any medium without the express permission of the 
author is strictly prohibited. For reprint information and 
permission, please contact the author via e-mail at [email protected]


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## RikiDaisyDixie

*more on crate training by G. Dittman*

This is her article on housetraining an older dog, a foster dog, or a rescue. It worked with my male, Riki. It was a lot of work, but he is completely housetrained.

permission to post with concept that article will not be sold and will be printed in its entirety without changes.
Linda

There are times when an older puppy or adult dog comes into a 
new household and seems to have 'forgotten' its former 
housebreaking. Often, the problem lies in the strangeness of the
new household, the trauma of losing it's former home or perhaps 
the dog was never completely housebroken in the first place. 
When a new dog comes into the household and is not continent in 
the house, the first step is to have the dog checked carefully to rule 
out any physical cause for the problem. A low-grade urinary tract, 
bladder, prostate or vaginal infection will cause a dog to 'lose' its 
housebreaking. Similarly, an intact dog or a bitch in season (or coming into
season) may 'mark' their territory and to some, this behavior looks like the
dog is urinating in the house. In fact, it is using a different substance
to let other dogs know that this area is HIS (or HERS) and there will be 
NO TRESPASSING. This type of behavior can only be curbed by first
altering the animal and then attempting behavior modification, perhaps using 
this method of re-training. There is no point in trying to correct a problem that 
is outside of the dog's physical control. So first be sure that there is no 
underlying physical cause for the problem and that the behavior is, indeed,
not being caused by reproductive hormones.

Once the dog is found to be healthy, you can try what I call the
'umbilical cord' method of housebreaking. The philosophy behind 
this is really very simple. It is based on two factors. The first is the 
way a dog learns. Dogs learn by IMMEDIATE correction or 
IMMEDIATE praise. They do not relate their actions to past or
future happenings. For example: A dog has an accident in the
livingroom. While the dog is eliminating, he is not thinking "Uh oh, 
I am going to get in trouble for this later!" 5 minutes later YOU come into 
the room, see the wet spot, make an immediate assumption and
begin feeling angry toward the dog. You see the dog nearby and go 
toward it to correct it. The dog, while having NO IDEA that you are 
angry over something that happened LONG ago (to a dog!), does sense your
anger in the vibrations and scents your body is giving off and in your body 
language, so he immediately ACTS guilty in an attempt to ward off your 
anger, even tho he has no idea WHY you are angry or what he is
acting guilty about. He is merely trying to appease the leader of the pack. 
Since he does not relate his earlier action to your anger (it is simply 
outside of his frame of reference...dogs are NOT able to make
long-term associations) he looks upon your anger and subsequent actions as 
being completely unreasonable. He is not learning NOT TO SOIL in the 
house, he is learning that you are not to be trusted and that you
will act in what HE considers to be an irrational manner from time to time.

The second factor is....if you and the dog are together ALL the time, 
whatever the dog does, YOU will be aware of IMMEDIATELY! So here
is how it works:

Whoever is on 'dog duty' takes the leash and puts it on the dog.
He or she then ties the loose end of the leash around his/her own waist. 
Where the dog goes, you go. Where you go, the dog goes. Remember 
that a dog takes about 3-4 hours to digest a meal, but may have
to urinate shortly after drinking water. Keep these facts in mind while 
housebreaking the dog. A dog that has to go badly
enough will go regardless of where he is. If the dog
begins to act as if he is thinking of having 
an accident (dogs WILL signal before eliminating...you have to
watch the dog and see what his particular 
signal is. Some dogs will circle, or sniff first or hold the base
of the tail at an odd angle just before letting 
loose. Watch your dog and learn his signals) you
IMMEDIATELY...BEFORE the accident, preferably....give 
a strong verbal correction. You can say "NO!" in a low, growly,
disapproving tone or you can use a noise such as "BAH", again in 
a low, growly tone of voice. You do not have to shout or yell at 
the dog. Using a gruff, growly tone is much more understandable to 
the dog, since the Momdog will growl at him when she 
is angry. A growl is much better than a shout! So you growl at
the dog and at the same time, you pick it up (if it is a small or medium 
size breed, of course! A larger dog must be RUN out the door) and carry it 
outside to a spot it HAS gone in the past. The dog should be
startled enough by the growl and being picked up (or run) to stop 
whatever it was about to do or even DOING at the time. Put the dog 
down on the grass at a spot it has used before and wait. It may take a few 
minutes for the dog to settle back down enough to continue. But you wait it 
out! Don 't talk to the dog, just stand there at the other end of the leash patiently 
and wait. This is not party time, the dog is there to do something. As soon as 
the dog finishes what it started inside, you praise it! What a good dog! 
Giving it a treat is also a good idea, to help with positive reinforcement. But remember...like the IMMEDIATE correction, the praise must 
be immediate for the dog to be able to relate it to its action.

The dog will remain tied to you whenever it is 
not in its crate or outside. If you are too busy to have the dog
attached to you, either put it outside or in the crate but do NOT 
let it loose in the house until it has stopped having accidents in your 
presence and has started whining or making some other noise to let you 
know it must go out. When it DOES make a noise, IMMEDIATELY STOP EVERYTHING ELSE and get it outside! The first time or two or three may 
be flukes, but soon the dog WILL begin to associate making noise
with going outside and will start to signal on his own. If this method 
is used consistently, the dog should be housebroken within 2 weeks, although 
some dogs MAY take a little longer if the den instinct has been completely 
negated for some reason. Once you take the leash off, you must still keep a 
close eye on the dog, preferably keeping him in the same 
room as yourself for the next few weeks. What you are doing is
re-instilling the den instinct in the dog.

Dogs won't soil their dens IF they have an alternative and the
dog must associate the entire house with his den. Start out with a small 
area...wherever YOU and the dog are...and gradually increase that area 
until the dog thinks of the entire house as his den area and does
his best NOT to soil it. This may be all new to him or he may have never 
been taught properly in the first place, so you must be alert and 
understand that until he gets the idea, it is your job to watch
him carefully and get him outside BEFORE he has an accident. 
But you must expect an accident or two or three<g> before the lesson is 
learned, as a dog must learn what NOT to do before he can learn how to 
do it right. Patience and consistency will help teach your dog how to 
be clean in the house!

(c) 1996-2008 Gloria S. Dittmann. All Rights Reserved. Any
reproduction, in whole or in part, in any medium whatsoever, is
strictly prohibited by International Copyright Law. For reprint
permission and information, please contact the author via e-mail
at [email protected]


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## Missy

Here is my advice. And it worked for us on two Havs. If you want her to someday use both pee pads and go outside... don't even worry about pancakes going outside...when the time comes that will come naturally to her. I would focus on an out of the way place in your house to pad train-- when she is little you can have the a few places one in her x-pen but slowly move it to it's permanent home (ours is through a doggy door in a sectioned off part of our garage) be vigilant and about every half hour lead her to this place and say your words , our, "do your biz"

The point is... give her no other options until she is 5-6-7 months old--- praise galore when she goes in her potty room. if you are on a walk and she goes, just be matter of fact-- a quiet good girl...but inside, in her room is a party with treats. of course if she goes some where else in the house, startle her with a No and take her to her room. If she finishes there or even squats-- it's a party. The corrections in the house is where you really need to be vigilant. 

My boys were so well trained that at about 7 months each of them would scratch at the door if outside playing to come in and go potty....LOL. But now, at almost 2 and 3 years old even with their room they would rather hold it all day and wait to go outside. But every once in a while, usually if we have dinner guests and we are paying them no attention they will still use their room. But my guys are bigger and I think have an easier time holding it than small girls... SO I think for this breed being trained inside and out is a big plus. i wouldn't do the bell if you are going to do inside and out. too confusing. 

good luck.


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## Kathy

I believe that crate training works best and is the easiest/fastest means to success as long as the HUMAN is consistent in all training.

Please, don't leave your puppy in a crate on the days you must work, but rather purchase an xpen or confine her to an area in the house where she will be safe and have room. 

I would suggest you order this book from Amazon.com: How to Train A Puppy You Can Live With. It will be very helpful I think for you.


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## noa and me

irnfit said:


> I trained them to the pee pads and to go outside. This method just fits our lifestyle because they are left alone part of the day. It is also very convenient when we are travelling with them. I know I will be jinxed by saying this, but we haven't had an accident for quite a while. Even on vacation they were accident free.


Noa started off with pee pads because I haven't got my own private yard and didn't want her on the ground outside til she had all her shots. She very rarely had accidents in the house - if she missed the pad it wasn't for lack of trying, it was just that her nose was over the pad and her back end....wasn't 

It took her a few days to fully learn about outdoor potty-ing, but once she got it she really got it. I still have her pee pad out in the house, because once in a while she doesn't catch my attention in time, and also she's home alone while I'm at work, but she hasn't gone in the wrong place in several weeks so I'm pretty sure she gets it. One thing that helped in our case is I got her a litter box to put the pee pad in, to improve her aim. The puddle just a couple inches away from the edge of the pad was sad, and it hasn't happened in a while so i think the box helps.

Also, if you're worried about the cost of pee pads you may want to look into Pooch Pads (or something similar). They are washable instead of disposable, making them a lot less wasteful. They claim to last at least 300 washes - i've only had Noa for a couple of months so haven't washed them that many times but even after a couple of months they are in just-like-new condition so I would definitely recommend them.


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## Scooter's Family

We did crate and bell training. At first it seemed like we took him outside every 15 minutes and he still had accidents but he came home at 8 weeks so he was just a baby. We gave him treats and lots of love every time he peed or pooed outside. Any time we couldn't watch him he was in his crate and still is at night or if we leave the house. He doesn't willingly go into his crate but he doesn't whine or cry anymore. 
The bells were great because we don't always notice him sitting at the door but we do hear the noise. We got Poochie Bells and his name is on it. DH laughed at me and said, "Scooter can't read!" but I think they're cute! :biggrin1:
Best of luck to you, it's a frustrating process but so worth it when they finally "get" it!


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## Tom King

These dogs are very intelligent and quite capable of learning any combination of the mentioned methods of your choosing. To start with though, just choose one and get that one down really good.

I find that it's easiest to teach them the command, "Go Potty." and later you can add "on________". My method has aready been quoted on this thread and I don't have any reason to change it although I still feel like I'm getting better at it with years of experience. I can pay attention without really having to concentrate on it-I guess sort of like raising children in that it gets easier after the first one.

We had one really hard case with an older dog, a Bichon that had never been housebroken who belonged to a neighbor that we had to babysit for in an emergency, and we went back to the expen only the expen was folded down to the only thing left on the floor was the litter box. We still used success with "go potty" to get out and play with the adult and it worked. We have never had to do this with a puppy but we now start as soon as they can toddle.

If the pup has accidents it's because the owner is not paying attention and/or the pup has too much freedom. Always. Always.


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## bullwinkle

Hi, Just wondering when it comes to potty training, I have to go out my kitchen across my deck and down some steps to yard and spot I want to train , should I carry a new puppy as I don't think she could make it all the way without eliminating or should I put her on leash and try to make her go. Will me carrying her hurt with breaking will she eventually know to go there alone?


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## Scooter's Family

We had the same thing, out the door, across the porch and down the steps. We HAD to carry him at first because he was too small for the steps but he never peed or pooed on us while holding him. I had a spray that I bought that encourages them to go where you spray it and it seemed to help. We chose one area and sprayed it frequently. Seemed like we took him out every hour at first but he's 7 months old now and ALMOST never has accidents. Always go out the same door and use the phrase you want her to know, "Let's go potty!" or whatever you want to say. Then when she does, tons of praise and a treat.
Good luck!


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## LuvCicero

Bullwinkle, It's great to just carry her to the spot for a few weeks so it doesn't give her the chance to potty before she gets there...and they are fast little things.  Cicero just stood still a minute - with only his tail sticking up straight and still -- which I learned to reconize in a couple of days.

Okay, you can learn from my mistake: We have a fenced in yard so I just took Cicero to his spot and stood there - no talking or playing till he pottied...then a good treat and some run and play time. My mistake...I didn' t put a leash on him -- so he learned to potty being FREE...and later when I started with the leash, he didn't want to potty with it on!!!!! It took a while for him to know it was okay 'with' the leash. SO...if I ever get another I will use a show lead that can quickly slip on so it will learn to potty with the leash right off the bat.


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## Scooter's Family

Good idea Dale! I made the same mistake and it was hard on vacation when he had to be on a leash to go out. I'd do the leash from the beginning too.


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## bullwinkle

many thanks


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## HavaneseSoon

We never did use a crate. Taught Dexter how to use the bell system, sometimes he uses the bells and sometimes he just gives me the look. 

Dexter will use the bells a lot when dh is taking care of Dexter because dh not recognize the look from Dexter or dh is not paying attention to potty time. 

Dexter has never abused the bell system...like wanting just to go outside or whatever. 

My "Hawk Potty Training" method worked very well....along with the every "45 minutes Potty Training" that I did for Dexter did the trick.


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## Chere

I like the tethering the very best especially combined with crate training if no one is available to tether. We did it with our cocker spaniel and she was a dream to train. Our foster boys need tethering as they will sometimes go in the house (especially if it is raining) and I need to get on this with them. I have not used a crate with them because of their long life in a cage; I just can't bring myself to try that and probably I am not going to have full success until I figure that part out. Just be sure you don't try to train beyond what the puppy is physically capable of doing.


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## marb42

I used the crate a little, but mostly took Marble out a million times a day and never let him wander out of my view when he wasn't in the crate.
Gina


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## Patti McNeil

How long did you do that, Gina? Toby is either in his crate, pen, or tethered to one of us. We take him out every hour and don't let him wander out of our sight yet. Just wondering when we can start letting him roam the house a little.


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## Patti McNeil

*I did it bass-ackwards....*

Toby is almost 6 months old. We got him at the beginning of summer because my husband and I are both teachers. We crate trained him, in combination with tethering. He only pottied outside all summer. NOT because he's housebroken, but because WE were trained to take him out often and always had him with one of us. Anyway, school started and I put a potty pad in his pen. The first day he ate it (what he could, and just shredded the rest). The second day he actually got it and pee'd on it. He will now pee on it when he's in his pen during the day. My question is: should I start leaving a potty pad out all the time, even when we're home? Or should I expect him to understand when we're home, he needs to go outside, and when we're gone he's to use the potty pad?

Thanks,
Patti


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## Sarah

Bugsy is potty trained (my hav). But before my Yorkie died I used the human pee pads. I could re-use them, wash them, bleach them, and lay them back down. I used an x-pen first to train her where to go when she needed to go potty. Then after a few weeks I took the pen away and left the pee pad.


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## murphymoesmamma

Murphy is trained to use a litter box, but potties outside when we are out with him. I can't say enough good things about litter training. It is so nice to not worry about inclement weather, storms, ice etc. Murphy at this point (today is his first birthday) is 99% reliable. We still have our library gated off and used to have a gate at the hallway entrance to the bedrooms. Recently we took the gate down to the bedrooms and started just closing the doors to the rooms. As soon as we know for sure that he is reliable in the hallway we will open the doors to the bedrooms gradually and then work on taking the gate to the library down.

HAV'S ROCK!!!!


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## mintchip

Patti McNeil said:


> Toby is almost 6 months old. We got him at the beginning of summer because my husband and I are both teachers. We crate trained him, in combination with tethering. He only pottied outside all summer. NOT because he's housebroken, but because WE were trained to take him out often and always had him with one of us. Anyway, school started and I put a potty pad in his pen. The first day he ate it (what he could, and just shredded the rest). The second day he actually got it and pee'd on it. He will now pee on it when he's in his pen during the day. My question is: should I start leaving a potty pad out all the time, even when we're home? Or should I expect him to understand when we're home, he needs to go outside, and when we're gone he's to use the potty pad?
> 
> Thanks,
> Patti


My guys are housebroken but I have a litterbox also for them. (They will use the box if I'm late getting home.)


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## oohbetty

I would advise not using the puppy pads if you don't have to. If you can crate train him and let him out every few hours in the beginning it's better than confusing him with more than one place to go. If you start with puppy pads and take them away he has to learn twice. Also reward him with treats when he goes outside. We use bells too and they work. Fluffy rings the bells when he wants to go out. He's 8mo.


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## krandall

We do the same as Murphy and Mintchip's families... Kodi has two litter boxes, one in his ex-pen, and one in the kitchen. He would much prefer to go outside, if there is someone around to take him out. But if we aren't home (or sleep later in the morning than he can wait - which is WAY nice!!!) he uses his litter box. His crate is attached to the ex-pen, so he has access to both when he's home alone and over night. I also don't make him go outside if it's raining hard, because he really hates it, and it's fine with me if he uses the box. He hasn't been confused at all about having both options. 

Knowing how Havs in general, and Kodi in particular love to chew up anything papery, I don't think pee pads would work very well for us. We use wood stove pellets for litter, so it's really cheap, and it's also really easy to clean the litter box. It smells nice too.


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## mintchip

krandall said:


> We do the same as Murphy and Mintchip's families... Kodi has two litter boxes, one in his ex-pen, and one in the kitchen. He would much prefer to go outside, if there is someone around to take him out. But if we aren't home (or sleep later in the morning than he can wait - which is WAY nice!!!) he uses his litter box. His crate is attached to the ex-pen, so he has access to both when he's home alone and over night. I also don't make him go outside if it's raining hard, because he really hates it, and it's fine with me if he uses the box. He hasn't been confused at all about having both options.
> 
> Knowing how Havs in general, and Kodi in particular love to chew up anything papery, I don't think pee pads would work very well for us. We use wood stove pellets for litter, so it's really cheap, and it's also really easy to clean the litter box. It smells nice too.


Wood pellets?? Where do you get them?
I agree with pee pads being in shreds  The bells are good but what if they rang and no one came


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## krandall

Lots of places sell the pellets. They're for wood stoves. At this time of year, you can probably even get them at Lowes or Home Depot. We get them at the local feed and grain store. If you live in a more urban area, try a place that sells wood stoves. A lot of places around here that sell bark mulch also sell bagged wood pellets.


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## krandall

Oops... I just saw that you're in SF... does it get cold enough there for people to use wood stoves? If not, it might be harder to find them.


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## mintchip

krandall said:


> Oops... I just saw that you're in SF... does it get cold enough there for people to use wood stoves? If not, it might be harder to find them.


 only in the summer:wink::biggrin1:


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## Renee

krandall said:


> Lots of places sell the pellets. They're for wood stoves. At this time of year, you can probably even get them at Lowes or Home Depot. We get them at the local feed and grain store. If you live in a more urban area, try a place that sells wood stoves. A lot of places around here that sell bark mulch also sell bagged wood pellets.


How often do you have to replace the wood pellets?? How big is your box? Could you post pics?? I'm always up for better ideas.

And to the question about "what if you don't hear the bells?" Miley has figured out how to ring them LOUDER if you don't hear her the first time, or if I'm in the middle of something. Persistent little stinker she is....


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## mintchip

Renee said:


> How often do you have to replace the wood pellets?? How big is your box? Could you post pics?? I'm always up for better ideas.
> 
> And to the question about "what if you don't hear the bells?" Miley has figured out how to ring them LOUDER if you don't hear her the first time, or if I'm in the middle of something. Persistent little stinker she is....


What if no else is home and Miley rings the bells? (That is why I set up a litter box)


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## Renee

She has a pee pad (on a pee pad tray) inside. That's why I'm wondering if the litter box might work better. Occasionally she doesn't FEEL like going outside, especially if it's raining.


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## krandall

Renee said:


> How often do you have to replace the wood pellets?? How big is your box? Could you post pics?? I'm always up for better ideas.


Sorry... This got lost in the shuffle! Here's a photo of the litter boxes we're using. We have this one in the kitchen for when he's loose, and another in his Ex-pen/crate arrangement. (they are attached together) They are 24" wide, and about 22" back to front at their widest point. In the beginning, I thought it was a little dumb that they are rounded that way, but Kodi is definitely a "circler" before he poops, so the fact that it bows out a bit, helps keep him IN the box as he circles!<g>

You don't replace all the litter at one time... When they pee in it, the peed-on pellets swell from the moisture and become very obvious. If you leave them for a length of time, they fall apart into sawdust, but they so completely absorb liquid that the box never gets "wet". If I think of it, I'll try to catch what this looks like before cleaning it tomorrow. I just scoop out the swollen and/or disintegrated pellets once a day. If he poops inside (which isn't very often... he'd prefer to go outside) I pick it up right away.


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## Janizona

I raise my litters with the UGODOG. Much better than pad or litter as there isn't anything to chew up!!

http://janizonahavanese.com/UGODOG.html


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## leena365

*Potty Training Your Havanese...*



3girlsluvHav said:


> Hi!! We got our pup in June and I have 3 girls- so I spent months researching what is best, etc. I compiled it in a word document and I will try and paste it below for you- we followed it to a tee pretty much and our pup now 5 months is doing great! Here's the info I HTH!!
> Potty training needs to be done as a progression.
> 
> The first step is that the pup is 100% going in the expen in the right place.
> 
> When a pup is at first by itself in it's new home we recommend that the expen be folded in so that it's 2x4 with the potty area, whether pad or litter box, is on one end towards where the pup's people will be when it wakes up. Once I have a pup by itself the expen is in the room where my chair is and the litter box is in that end. As soon as the pup wakes up it will automatically come towards me and go into the litter box. I use the desire to come out of the pen as incentive to "go potty" before the pup is allowed to come out and play. I go and stand next to the end where the box is and give the command "go potty"-no eye contact, no smiling, no nothing until the puppy squats to pee. The INSTANT the job is finished I pick the pup up and make much of it and let it run around like a wild thing to play. It usually only takes a couple of days and I will have the pup squatting to pee whether it has to or not on command.
> 
> After the pup is 100% going to the box in the 2x4, next another corner is opened up on one end and the box put in the new end so that there is a 2x2 bed area, a 2x2 open area, and the potty area in the other 2x2. If the pup potties on the floor in the pen you need to go back to the 2x4 for a day or so and then try the expansion again.
> 
> Once the pup is 100% in the L shaped pen, you can try opening it all the way up, but be prepared to go backwards in size if necessary.
> 
> The next stage is to open one side of the pen when you let the pup out to play so that you can play with the pup near the pen and it can go back into the box in the pen to potty. The play area is gradually made larger until the pup has the run of the whole room and will go back to the box. The pup HAS to have CONSTANT supervision. It doesn't count as constant if everything is forgotten and the pup left to run around when the phone rings. If you have to leave the play area while the pup is out he goes back in the pen.
> 
> Potty areas staged around the room will not work to start with. The transition can be made to having a potty area but it has to be part of a transition with small steps.
> 
> No accidents on the floor is the right number. If the pups have been raised from the start not knowing anything but going in a box or on pads it greatly simplifies things. Yes, no accidents is possible. Our last 5 dogs at least have NEVER pottied on the floor-Roxie, Belle, Posh, Razzle, and Frolic.
> 
> The answer to the problem of "accidents" on the floor is that there is too much freedom and/or you are not paying attention. To be able to give complete attention to the pup the first few days is priceless. When the pup is running around playing it will always give some sort of signal that it needs to go potty. Males will have to sniff for a spot and circle, if only for a few seconds, and females will walk a bit differently, if only for a few steps, but they do give a signal.
> 
> I call this potty training and say that potty training is separate from house training. Potty training needs to come first, especially for a young puppy.
> 
> We only use the crates for the pups to sleep in and then only a day or two before they go home. The expens have a variety of blankets and beds in them for pups to dig in, under, and be able to make a comfortable place for them to sleep. The size is important for potty training purposes. If they pee on the floor or bedding, they have too much room. We suggest that new guardians start with the expen folded in to 2 x 4 but it can quickly be expanded as the pups get used to their new surrounding.
> 
> Remember that potty training problems primary causes are too much freedom and not paying attention.
> 
> Also you have to be diligent to keep clean bedding in the pen so that they get used to thinking that it's the way it's supposed to be. When our pups have their bedding changed a number of times a day. When they are just a couple of weeks old through the time when they start eating food and are weaning off their mother they will leak some before they can get to the box even though they still go in the box. If they are used to clean bedding they get excited when they see it coming.
> 
> We have a system with the litter that ours never think about there being any other way than going in the box. Litter makes it easy to transition to anything else. All you have to do is put a handful of litter where you want them to go. We send new puppies home with a piddle pad folded around a handful of litter. That way the new owner can place that on the car floor or airport or airplane on the way home and fold it back up to put in a ziplock bag. Never heard of it not working.
> 
> To me potty training means that they go where you want them to in a very controlled environment and even by command. House training means that you can trust them not to forget with almost unlimited freedom.
> 
> They need lots of play time so even from a few weeks old they are taken out of the pen to play right after they potty. Later steps open the side of the expen and play with them close until they will go back to the box on their own. This will work every time with the proper progression. We like litter better than pads or newspaper for several reasons but they seem to go to it better if they are out than they will to piddle pads. We have trained them to newspaper, pads, and litter but like the litter best.
> 
> You have to pay attention though. Paying attention doesn't include forgetting that the pup is loose when the telephone rings.
> 
> We send pups home potty trained to the litter box but it's easy to mess up. A good start has to help though. I wouldn't want to take a pup who had been raised on a grid floor, like puppy mills do, who have had no incentive to do anything but let it fly anytime and anywhere.
> 
> They have the instinct not to soil their bed to start with. Use it to your advantage. We have kept putting a box in with puppies at younger and younger ages and have learned that it's not possible to introduce them to it too early.
> 
> I know a number of Havanese who have NEVER had an accident on the floor.
> 
> Anyone who says they are hard to housetrain is wrong. You do have to know what you are doing though and have some good advice if you start having problems. I'd say that probably half of our new owners start having problems at some point but Pam or I are able to get them through it quickly if they call.
> 
> Assumptions are no replacement for experience.
> I missed the question on crate connected to expen. We don't. Nothing wrong with it, we just don't do it. They sleep in the crate at night in our bedroom. A litter box needs to be a few steps away. They will sleep all night long but when a 10 week old pup wakes up they have to go RIGHT NOW. The time will be short until they can hold it longer but at this stage they are still babies and still learning.
> 
> At this early stage they are learning mostly by forming habits instead of understanding. As they age their understanding increases to the point that it's really astounding. Set them up to succeed.
> 
> Also I've found with new owners who use treats to teach pottying that it's really easy for them to get in trouble. Several people who got our puppies used other advice and started the treat method and started having problems. Pam spent hours on the phone with them, usually the same thing over and over, and went back to the beginning to achieve success. One lady called crying ready for us to take the pup back and Pam finally asked if she wanted to give the pup up or she wanted to fix the problem. The lady said that she loved the pup but her husband was going to make her give it up. Up until then she had been unwilling to accept that the other treat method wouldn't work. The pup was pottying in front of her to get the treat and even waking up in the night pretending to potty to get a treat. She finally agreed to do what Pam said to do. Things were quickly turned back around and this lady now has two Havanese and is a good spokesperson for the breed.
> 
> If you start having trouble ask for advice from your breeder right away. We don't use treats, other than incentive to get out of the expen, to potty train.


I have been following your advice with regards to this type of potty training as my puppies are only 12 and 11 weeks old. However, when I explained this to my VET. He indicated that you should really be crate training the puppies. You need to let them tell you when it is time for them to go to the bathroom and then take them in that designated spot. Crate training will enlarge their bladder and teach them to sleep through the night. The pen system he says will cause a learned behaviour and if that potty pad is there or not they will go as soon as they move from their bedding. Now I am confused. I have also penned them separately so they do not develop littermate syndrome and I would be able to tell whom I would need to work with more.

What do I do now?

Leena


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## leena365

Hello Everyone,

Any suggestions with regards to potty training my MIYA. She has no problems pooping on the potty pad but she likes to pee on her crate pad. Does anyone have any suggestions for me?

Leena


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## Janizona

Yup, take her crate pad away so she doesn't have an option. Does that sound mean?? My dogs lie on the hard cold floor more often than any other place. In the crate they dig the pad up and move it aside. She will be fine for the time that she's learning the appropriate place to potty. You have to stop the behavior now or you will be forever doing laundry!


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## leena365

Janizona said:


> Yup, take her crate pad away so she doesn't have an option. Does that sound mean?? My dogs lie on the hard cold floor more often than any other place. In the crate they dig the pad up and move it aside. She will be fine for the time that she's learning the appropriate place to potty. You have to stop the behavior now or you will be forever doing laundry!


Janet,

My concern is that if I take away the crate pad. What if she poops on the cold hard floor instead of the potty pad at the other end? Is this not at the other end of the pen. Do you recommend crating her without a crate pad in her petmate pet carrier as well? What of the issue of them learning the behaviour to pee and poop at the other end of the pen when the potty pad is not there?

Leena


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## Janizona

I'd suggest you contact your breeder for some advise. I don't know how the pups were raised or what they are used to and she's probably the best one to ask. I know I'd prefer my own pup families to talk with me first! Hopefully she can shed some light on the problem for you.


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## krandall

leena365 said:


> I have been following your advice with regards to this type of potty training as my puppies are only 12 and 11 weeks old. However, when I explained this to my VET. He indicated that you should really be crate training the puppies. You need to let them tell you when it is time for them to go to the bathroom and then take them in that designated spot. Crate training will enlarge their bladder and teach them to sleep through the night. The pen system he says will cause a learned behaviour and if that potty pad is there or not they will go as soon as they move from their bedding. Now I am confused. I have also penned them separately so they do not develop littermate syndrome and I would be able to tell whom I would need to work with more.
> 
> What do I do now?
> 
> Leena


Hi Leena,

My Kodi is one of Tom's puppies, and I can attest to his method working. As far as your vet is concerned, one thing I've learned both from a life time of owning horses and now my few months with Kodi further confirm it; vets are medical professionals, not trainers. They have their opinions, but this is not their area of expertise.

What is the point of "stretching" a dogs bladder, unless you NEED him to wait all day while you are at work? Humans don't go that long without pee breaks, I don't want my dog to have to. That's the beauty of the litter box... It's there when they need it.

As far as the "learned behavior" is concerned, yes, this method USES learned behavior to teach the dog to use the litter box. Once the pup is reliably using the litter box in the 2x2 area, the pen is expanded to an "L", so the pup has to move away from his bed further to find the litter box. I think Tom explained this progression very clearly. At 5 months, Kodi knows exactly where his litter boxes are, and knows to go to one of them when he needs to, even though they are in different rooms. (he was originally confined just to the kitchen, when he wasn't in his ex-pen and the litter box that is not in his pen still is there) The behavior you want your pup to learn is that the litter box (and/or outdoors) are appropriate places to go; other places are not.

Kodi clearly understands the "potty rules". We also travel with him in our travel trailer, and although the physical layout is different, he still understands that the litter box, wherever it is, is the approved indoor potty spot. We recently had to go away for a long weekend without him. <sniff> He stayed with a good friend who is a dog trainer. She set up his litter boxes in her kitchen and in his pen in her study. Even in these strange surroundings, with other dogs, and people he didn't know well, he didn't have a single accident while he was there.

I can't tell you Kodi never had an accident, but as Tom said, they were ALL due to inattention on the part of whatever family member had custody of him at the time. And he didn't have many accidents anyway. At this point, I can't remember the last time he had an accident.

I THINK he would be reliable as far as pottying is concerned, even if we left him for a while at this point, but as I am learning, (this is my first puppy!) "pottying" is the smallest part of "house training". He might not pee where he's not supposed to, but there are hundreds of things for him to get his little nose into or put his teeth on. We find new ones every day.<g> On top of that, he is HAPPY in his ex-pen. He feels secure there. If I go upstairs, where he can't see me, while he is out and about (the stairs are gated off) he whines and cries until I return. If I pop him into his ex-pen and run upstairs, he curls up in his bed, happy as a clam.

I don't know when he and or we will feel comfortable leaving him loose and unattended in the house, but I don't think it will be any time soon. But that's fine... this set up couldn't be easier!


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## leena365

Krandall,

Thank you for setting me straight. So you feel that whilst they are young the ex-pen is the best place for them unless they are all outside? Do you not believe in crating them at all? What do you suggest for a barking dog?

Leena


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## krandall

Well, first let me remind you that I have a sample-size of one.<g> I have extensive experience training horses, but this is my first puppy. I would quickly defer to anything Tom King said, because, so far, the Kings have yet to steer me wrong.

That said, yes, I think it's VERY important to have a place to confine puppies when they are not CLOSELY supervised. As Tom said, that means, not taking your eyes or attention off them for a moment, even when the phone rings. Whether that HAS to be an ex-pen, a crate, or a combination of the two, I think depends a lot on the individual puppy, the start the puppy got from the breeder, and the specific circumstances you have to deal with in your home. I do NOT feel that they need to be in a crate (or even an ex-pen except when they are outside... They just need to be closely supervised. They won't learn appropriate in-house behavior unless you supervise and TRAIN them in that environment. So they DO need time loose in the house. But you have to set it up to avoid accidents and optimize their success. (read Tom's method near the top of this thread)

I think that when people get pups from puppy mill or pet shop environments, where the puppies have learned it's OK to pee or poop anywhere, that crate training or Tom's 2x2 system with CLOSE, NON-STOP supervision is probably the only way to go in the very beginning. Even then, it's going to be a lot harder, and take a lot longer. If a puppy comes from a conscientious breeder who has given him a good start on potty training, the breeder will probably have good recommendations for successfully completing house training when you get the pup home.

In our case, Kodi was already COMPLETELY reliable in a full-sized ex-pen with litter box when we brought him home from the King's. So during the day, there was no need to lock him in a crate. His first crate was small enough that it fit easily inside his ex-pen , and he did sleep there by preference.

Many people have their pups in the bedroom with them. But for a number of reasons, we felt that it was better for Kodi to get used to sleeping in his crate on the first floor. For the first week, either I or my son slept on the couch near him, just in case he had a problem during the night, but he never did. I think the transition was helped by the fact that the Kings had sent him home with blankets and a large stuffed animal that smelled like his mom and the rest of the litter.

In the beginning, we locked him in the crate at night, and let him have the whole ex-pen by day. The problem with this was that when he was very young, it meant that someone had to be up to put him to bed around 11:00 PM, and then get up with him before 7:00 AM. (from what I've heard, that's actually pretty good for a young puppy!) For many people this wouldn't be a problem. But I have an auto-immune disorder, and I need more sleep than that on a nightly basis. I was starting to have flares because I wasn't getting enough sleep. My trainer/friend was the one who suggested just leaving his crate door open so that he could get to his litter box without us. It worked like a charm. He usually puts himself to bed between 8:00-9:00 at night. He gets up at some point in the morning to go potty by himself, and we come down when we're ready. Weekdays around 6:30, but on weekends, sometimes as late as 8:30 or 9:00. He plays quietly with his toys until we come down. I'm not at all sure this part would work with every puppy... I think the pup has to have the right temperament for it, but it works great with him.

Kodi quickly outgrew the first crate we got for him, and the one he has now would take up a LOT of real estate inside the ex-pen. Since he's completely reliable in the ex-pen, there was no real reason to reduce his play space so we just attached it to the outside. It works great that way, but it's certainly not a necessity. I've attached a picture at the end of this message.

As far as barking is concerned, I think you have a very different situation because you have two, and I'm sure one barking riles up the other one. Kodi doesn't usually bark much except for a few specific situations, each of which we are handling differently. He will come to us, look at us and bark once or twice when he wants/needs something. In those instances, we try to figure out what he wants, (it's usually pretty obvious "My ball is stuck under the couch, Mom!"<g>) and deal with it. If it's something he can't have, ("But I WANT to chew the cover papers off the books on the shelf!") we first try to distract him with something appropriate, and if he still persists, he goes back in his pen with a toy or chewy until he forgets about it.

He also barks for attention when I try to talk on the phone. This isn't caused by the phone ringing... he doesn't react to that, and if another family member answers the phone, he doesn't bark, But for some reason, he feels that ALL my attention should be devoted to him.<g> So if (when) he starts barking if I'm on the phone, again, it's back in the pen.

Our biggest barking problem is with the cat, and that's a tough one, because she really baits him. In the beginning, when we thought she was afraid of him, we would put him back in the pen. Now, she's clearly NOT afraid of him, and if he gets to close, she will run at him and swat until he moves back. Unfortunately, then he just stands out of her range and barks at her. I hate to lock him up every time for this, because often, the cat purposely sits in front of him, just to get him going. I talked to the trainer about this, and she suggested that at this point, where clearly no one is getting hurt, we should just let them work it out as much as possible. If we have company, or can't stand the noise, then we remove one or the other of them. (we're trying to be even-handed about who gets the boot<g>)

So, I guess the short answer is, how you handle barking is pretty specific to the CAUSE of the barking. I can tell you that Kodi is LEAST likely to bark in his pen. He feels very safe, secure, and at home there. He's usually sprawled out on his back, fast asleep with his feet in the air.

Oh, one other thing, since I know your pups are young. Kodi went through a phase from about 12 weeks to 16 weeks where he was NUTS in the late afternoon/early evening. I've read posts from other people who have mentioned the same thing. He was out of control wild, into everything and barking like crazy. I talked to the trainer about this, because I wasn't sure how to handle it. She said it wasn't uncommon for puppies to go through a "witching hour" in the late afternoon/early evening, just like small children who get overtired. She said when he got like this, we should just put him back in his pen and ignore him until he settled down. During that one period, he WOULD continue to bark, even in the ex-pen, for a while. But we COMPLETELY ignored him, and within a few minutes, he'd be dead asleep. That seemed to be a fairly short-lived phase, though. He's 5 months old now, and it hasn't happened in a while.

I do put him in the ex-pen while I'm preparing dinner and while we eat, because I don't want to take a chance of him putting his paws on the oven door, and I also don't want him bothering people at the table. He gets his dinner while we eat, but in his pen.

Karen


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## auntd

Karen,

Thank you so much for the great advice & the pictures! This forum is a must read for any new Hav owner!! :dance: 

We've had our little Phoebe home for two days now & she's taken fairly well to the litter box. It seems as though she understands she is supposed to go in there but the problem I'm having with her is that she hates being confined in the ex-pen. She whines & cries & if no one comes to rescue her she'll bark. She has never had an accident in the 2x4 ex-pen set up which I use for daytime in the kitchen & for nighttime in our bedroom. It's when she's out playing with the kids that she'll have an accident. I'm thinking that I should open the ex-pen to the "L" shaped configuration & leave her in there all the time with a few short playtimes in the family room with the kids. Does that sound mean? I feel bad keeping her in there all day when we're here but I want her to learn 1) not to hate the ex-pen & 2) to use her litter box consistently. Also, I'm using the wood pellets in the litter box which I like a lot but it is really hard to scoop out the wet ones after she pees. Seems like there's always a layer of sawdust in the bottom of the litter pan that I can't get out without dumping the whole thing.

Thanks for letting me vent! I'd love any advice anyone has to offer!! 

Danielle

P.S. Does anyone else's Havi like to crawl under the couches? She seems to have so much fun doing that & then popping out to surprise the kids. Cracks me up... eep:


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## leena365

Danielle,

I know how you feel. I have two Havanese puppies and I have had them for three weeks now. I have also ex-penned them seperately as they were litter mates. I find that when my husband allows them too much freedom they also pee and poop on the rubber mats he places in the laundry area. Otherwise, I also keep them penned in the office as well as at home in a 2x4 with their crate on one end and the wizdog potty system at the other end. I was told that they should stay in this size until they learn that they must go on the potty pad. You must remember to praise them once they do go on the potty pad constantly. I have the same issue when they play with the kids who are actually older children they tend to have accidents as they are not watching them closely. We also have a barker in KASHI and a whiner in MIYA when we put them in the pen. I wish I could do the litter pan but mine would eat the litter so I use a potty pad system with pee pads in between the grate. 

Good luck with your Havanese Danielle.


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## krandall

Hi Danielle,

Phoebe DEFINITELY should not be loose if you aren't sure that you can catch her before she pees and get her either to her litter box or outside in time. Find Tom's post early in this thread, and he talks about teaching them to go pee BEFORE they can have free play time. Over time, we have modified what Tom does slightly, because Kodi is older and because he really hates to use the litter box in the ex-pen if there is any other alternative. I think it's too close to his "den" (crate).

Even though Kodi is very reliable about not having accidents, after he's had a nap, and before we let him roam around and play, we either take him outside or (if it's raining hard) to his litter box in the kitchen, and say "go pee". At this point, even if he doesn't really need to go, he knows the drill, and will squat and force out a few drops for us.<g> When he was littler, if he didn't go, he went back in the ex-pen, and we'd try again an hour later but he learned to "go pee" on command within the first week we had him.

It's not mean to keep your puppy confined. You are doing her a favor in the long run. The more reliable she becomes in terms of housebreaking, the more time she will be able to be free when she's a little older. The more mistakes she has now, the harder it will be to break the habit of going where ever she wants as she gets older.

Additionally, teaching her to love her ex-pen will give her a lot of security when she gets a little older, and you have to leave her alone at times. You can make the ex-pen more fun by making sure she has some things she really likes that she ONLY gets when she's in the ex-pen. Make sure she has a cozy bed. Some pups seem satisfied with a soft, open bed. Kodi really likes the cosiness of being able go go into his crate to nap. rotate the toys she has in there so that she doesn't get bored with them. make sure she has a stuffed Kong or other long-lasting chewy treat that she only gets when she's in her pen or crate.

Kodi doesn't seem to like the texture of the Kongs, and even the smallest ones were too hard for him to chew when he was really little. We found that Starmark Everlasting Treat Balls at Petsmart are perfect in size and texture. These are very soft chewy rubber, and you can put a flavored dental chew (specially made to fit) in one side, and stuff the other side with kibble or small treats. It takes a while for the puppy to work everything out of it, keeping them busy and happy in the mean time.

Another shorter-lived but absolutely favorite treat for Kodi is ice cubes. He chases them around, licks them, and has a blast with them. We save them as "ex-pen only" treats, partially to make them special, and partially to contain the melting water mess!<g>

If Phoebe is being very reliable about the 2x4 configuration, it's definitely time to try the L shape. And giving her some more room to play might help her be happier in her pen.

The advice I'm going to give you next is for puppies that were raised in good breeder conditions, where they were well socialized and started, and in all likelihood confined either to an ex-pen or other small enclosure. I'm not sure this would pertain to mill/pet store puppies. She should already be used to confinement, although she probably isn't used to being alone. So make sure she can see other family members, and has plenty to keep her occupied when she's in her pen, but then make SURE that you DON'T "rescue" her if she is whining or barking... doing that will only guarantee that she will KEEP whining and barking to get your attention. Don't even LOOK at her if she's making a fuss. Any attention, even telling her to "be quiet" will reinforce her behavior.

Wait until she's quiet and settled down, then go and quietly tell her she's a good girl before lifting her out of the pen. It won't take long for her to figure out good behavior gets her good attention, and making a racket get's her NO attention.

As far as the litter is concerned, you can't use a scoop like a cat litter scoop to remove wet stuff, because, as you've found, it doesn't clump. I use a great big metal kitchen spoon (now dedicated to this purpose!:laugh so that I can get out most of the saw dust in the wet spots. It's true that you can't get ALL of it out, but leaving it behind doesn't hurt either. It sifts to the bottom where it causes no problem. Every once in a while (I haven't done it more than once a month, I'm sure) I let the level of pellets drop down, and then dump the whole thing in our compost pile. That gets rid of any sawdust build-up.


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## leena365

I like the way you set up his den. 
So you recommend that puppies stay in a pen until five or six months of age as most they say are not really potty trained until then and only take them out if you are going outside with them? 
Mine are very much the whiner and the barker and learning to ignore it is quite hard.

Leena


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## auntd

Thanks Karen! Starting tomorrow morning we are going to keep her in the 2x4 ex-pen mostly with a few limited & supervised play times with the family. I changed her to the "L" shaped pen yesterday & while she did really well with it at first & while she was out playing with my husband & kids last night she even went back to the litter box to go, today we've had a total regression. It's almost like she's refusing to go in the litter box for some reason. I'm going back to the 2x4 configuration tomorrow morning until we get back on track. Right now, she'll jump in the litter, lay in it, bark in it, whine in it, but not pee in it. Argh!! I had a ladies meeting at church last night so my hubby was home w/ Phoebe & the kids by himself...who knows what transpired! LOL!

One question for you though, do you close the crate door at night when you put the dogs to bed? I have been leaving it open in the 2x4 set up so she can get to her litter box but I'm thinking maybe that's too much freedom? 

Thanks again for all your great advice!!

Danielle


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## leena365

Danielle,

I keep mine in a 2x4 pen as well and I leave the door open for their crate in case they have to go pee during the night. At this age I am told their bladders are small and should not be held all that long.


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## krandall

auntd said:


> Thanks Karen! Starting tomorrow morning we are going to keep her in the 2x4 ex-pen mostly with a few limited & supervised play times with the family. I changed her to the "L" shaped pen yesterday & while she did really well with it at first & while she was out playing with my husband & kids last night she even went back to the litter box to go, today we've had a total regression. It's almost like she's refusing to go in the litter box for some reason. I'm going back to the 2x4 configuration tomorrow morning until we get back on track. Right now, she'll jump in the litter, lay in it, bark in it, whine in it, but not pee in it. Argh!! I had a ladies meeting at church last night so my hubby was home w/ Phoebe & the kids by himself...who knows what transpired! LOL!
> 
> One question for you though, do you close the crate door at night when you put the dogs to bed? I have been leaving it open in the 2x4 set up so she can get to her litter box but I'm thinking maybe that's too much freedom?
> 
> Thanks again for all your great advice!!
> 
> Danielle


When you went to the L configuration, did you leave the litter box close to her crate? or did you move it to the other leg of the L? If the litter box is closer to her bed, she might not want to eliminate there. I think you did the right thing closing it back down in size for a while again, but that's something to keep in mind when you expand it again.

We closed Kodi into his crate at night for several weeks, until he was quite reliable pottying AND until we were very sure he was comfortable and happy in the pen, and wouldn't be looking for escape routes when he was left alone for an extended period. I'm afraid that if a puppy ONCE found s/he could get out of the pen in some way, you'd never be able to keep them in again.

Kodi doesn't get locked up in the crate anymore at night, but I also am confident that he is happy playing quietly in his ex-pen for extended periods. In fact, when he's tired during the day, he asks to go back in for a nap.

One advantage to shutting up a younger puppy overnight is that it's a pretty sure bet that they will pee in the litter box as soon as you let them out, giving you a built in opportunity to praise them and tell them how wonderful they are for peeing in the potty!


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## marjrc

Great advice in this thread! :bump2:


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