# No AKC Papers on Skiver yet



## jolynn

Hi all:
Remember all the health problems I had with Skiver and all the trouble I had with his breeder? Well, Sky has been fixed for 5 months and we still don't have his papers yet. We sent the proof of neutering (as per contract) to the breeder via registered mail, but it was finally sent back unaccepted. When I reached him, he said that the mailman won't deliver registered mail because of the dogs (didn't know Havanese were attack dogs). He said send it regular mail. I did, weeks went by, nothing happened. I then emailed again (cuz you can't get this guy on the phone) and he does not reply. I'm afraid I spent a lot of money on a purebreed (I hope!) without any papers. What is my recourse? He is in Florida, I am in Michigan. I am going to get all the papers together and report him to the AKC, but I'm not sure that's enough. By the way, little Sky is still only barely 5 pounds at 11 months. So much for 'show quality'. Although I love the little guy, he was sold to us as champion stock, and (with a little more money) we were encouraged to show him. He doesn't even make weight, poor guy.

So, breeders, what do I do? I did my part of the bargain, even tho I was offered money to breed him with someone else's dog. I've certainly learned my lesson, and found a much better breeder with my second dog. (and have his papers!!)


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## Havtahava

Ugh! I have heard similar stories more times than I can count. It has got to be frustrating.

Can I ask what the importance of the papers is for you? Does it matter if you get his papers? Do you want to do any AKC events with him? Or do you just want it to prove he is a purebred? I'm asking to try to help you get resolution on this.


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## jolynn

Well, I'm not going to do any AKC events, no. I guess it's just a matter of pride, and of the right thing. I was brought up that a person's handshake was a binding thing, and I guess that's naive of me, but I feel cheated. He's also so different from Shaw, that I wonder if he is full Havanese. I'm pretty sure he's part silky havanese, his hair is just so soft, and his face is so small, but he's so tiny. People just can't believe that he and Shaw are the same breed! Shaw's coat is coming in so nice, and Sky still has trouble, probably due to the problems he had as a young pup in that ....... 'breeders'..... (I'm being contained).

So, I guess the papers would just mean, hey, I have a purebred and not anything else. I'd like to shout to the world about this guy, he advertises on the Internet (I know, I know, but I've learned since then!!) and warn people about him, he's already threatened me with a lawsuit, believe it or not, just for posting things like this, without even mentioning his name.


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## Havtahava

OK, that makes sense.

You can try to send him a letter via another delivery service. Doesn't UPS have a signature required delivery method?

If all else fails, you can always file a lawsuit in Small Claims Court, but I don't know if that would be worth your time and money. I'm not sure that AKC will do much of anything, but it is easy enough to email them. In my experience, they have always replied to my emails in less than 24 hours.

As a last resort, you can file a complaint with the HCA and his local Havanese club if he is a member. I don't know that either one of these will do any good, but it may raise awareness to the problem. I'd recommend you use the other avenues before you go here though.

Good luck.

Edited to add that I just saw this line:


> he's already threatened me with a lawsuit, believe it or not, just for posting things like this, without even mentioning his name.


 Hmm - this rings a bell! Just stick to facts and if he's reading, he'll see that you do have some options. He can't really win if he isn't following through on his own contracts.


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## SMARTY

I agree if you paid for a registered dog you should get the papers. You don't need a reason to want them you paid for them.

We are always talking about good breeders but how do we know? I think we should have a list that gives just the facts, Ebay and other sites do it: 

name
dogs name 
Breeder
Date of Purchase
Reason for concern: (never gave the AKC Papers, Did not keep contract on Health guarantee)
Reason for recommendation; (did everything they promised)

Why can't we do it?


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## Lina

Joanne, that must be very frustrating! I'm not sure what else you can do other than report the breeder to the AKC or sue him (which would be costly and time consuming, like Kimberly mentioned). I hope you are able to get this resolved and that Sky will get his papers soon!


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## Lina

SMARTY said:


> I agree if you paid for a registered dog you should get the papers. You don't need a reason to want them you paid for them.
> 
> We are always talking about good breeders but how do we know? I think we should have a list that gives just the facts, Ebay and other sites do it:
> 
> name
> dogs name
> Breeder
> Date of Purchase
> Reason for concern: (never gave the AKC Papers, Did not keep contract on Health guarantee)
> Reason for recommendation; (did everything they promised)
> 
> Why can't we do it?


I do think that would be a good idea, but I can understand why some people would be uncomfortable doing it. Let's say you recommend a breeder and then someone has a very bad experience with him/her. Or you recommend a breeder that you thought was great and others will come and say that he/she is actually a horrible breeder and how you must not have asked the right questions, etc. It's basically a fear of being judged by others on this forum (or wherever else) for buying a puppy from who you did.

I'm not saying that's necessarily true of everyone, but I do think from talking to some people that there is some fear on this forum (as well as in the Havanese world at large) to name a breeder. Not only because something can go wrong and make the breeder look bad, but there's also the fear that it can make the person who bought the puppy look bad (again, the whole passing judgment thing). I might be totally off base on this, but I do think some people feel that way.

Maybe if we had an anonymous way of doing this, people would be more willing to do it?

Please don't hate me for my post, it's just my opinion. eace:


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## Thumper

Well,

That can be a slippery slope! Especially on a public forum like this one...which happens to be privately owned. If I say "_______ is a criminal and crook", then "_______" could legally come after me and sue for slander and defamation and/or sue the forum or owner of the forum.

However, private conversations are fine. If I PM or email someone, that's just an opinion.

I do wish some of the bad apples out there were more obvious! It would save some heartache for future owners that become a bit too eager and buy the first dog they see...and want to believe that the breeder is legitimate and honorable. So many crooks out there 

Kara


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## mckennasedona

Jolynn,
I agree with you. You paid for and entered into an agreement for a registered Havanese. Part of that agreement was to include registration papers. Whether you frame them or throw them in a drawer and forget about them doesn't really matter. It's the fact that you agreed to a certain contract with your breeder and he isn't holding up his end of the deal. I was raised to believe that if I enter into an agreement with someone or make a promise to anyone about anything, I do it in good faith and I keep up my end of it. It's just the right thing to do.

Susan


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## Squirt

Jolynn, I just sent you a pm.


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## casperkeep

I agree that when you made an agreement with him that both parties should stick to what they say!!!!! I really hope things work out for you. He is absolutly adorable though!!!!!


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## dschles

Thumperlove said:


> Well,
> 
> That can be a slippery slope! Especially on a public forum like this one...which happens to be privately owned. If I say "_______ is a criminal and crook", then "_______" could legally come after me and sue for slander and defamation and/or sue the forum or owner of the forum.
> 
> However, private conversations are fine. If I PM or email someone, that's just an opinion.
> 
> Kara


I don't think this legal analysis is quite right. If a comment is slander/libel/defamatory, it is actionable whether it is posted on this forum or sent in a PM or e-mail. It is just less likely for the injured party to know about the slanderous/libelous/defamatory comment if it is sent privately. On the other hand, an opinion held in good faith is generally not actionable as libel, slander or defamation.

Here, if someone to give a factual account of their experience with a breeder, I can't imagine the breeder would have any claim (of course, anyone can sue, they just might not have a claim on which they can win). For example, I can't see a problem with saying, "XYZ promised he would send me the AKC papers, but he has not done so even though I have asked him for them many times."

Enough of the legalese, I wish people on this forum would be more open about their experiences with their breeders or even just say my dog is from XYZ breeder. I really don't understand the secrecy about this.

--Diane


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## Lina

Diane, I know what you mean about the breeder secrecy on this forum, but if you read my post above, those are the reasons I think people are so quiet about where they got their dogs from.


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## Thumper

I don't know. I'm not a lawyer, though I know a whole BUNCH of them through my work...But I do know on another forum very similar to this one (same host, software, etc) that we aren't allowed to say anything regarding specific doctors, hospitals, etc. if they are regarding a bad experience due to "liability laws", rumor has it there, that the forum owner was sued years past over a post regarding an opinion of a doctor?
I think a public forum or webpage is a bit different than private conversation, though..I suppose it depends on who one was speaking with, ehh? lol

I guess that's why we have courts! The laws have too many different interpretrations, even freedom of speech has its "regulations".

I am very curious who this breeder is...to be honest. But posting that might stifle a possible resolution, especially if he visits here. I'm sure some people might know who he is, there are only so many breeders in Florida?

Oh, and your right...stating fact should not be prohibited, but I think some people, not Joanne, would not be as tactful and factful about it...and let their anger get the better of them.

Kara


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## Havtahava

Just to clarify, my reason for asking why she wanted the papers was to try to help find a way to get them - not to validate or condemn her for the reason. She is obviously deserving of the papers (assuming they really exist), but it may not even be possible to ever get them, which is why I was trying to find out the desire. Sometimes it is worthwhile to fight it even if it is just for the principle of it, and sometimes it isn't (money, time & frustration). It is even harder when the breeder is out of state. I've personally been contacted at least four times to help resolve situations where owners never got their papers from the breeder and unfortunately, if the breeder holds them, the only way to get them may be to sue.



> I received Gucci's paperwork WITH her, along with all her medical records and testing. That holding off til' you send papers...just seems super shady to me.


Many breeders keep AKC registration papers until proof of spay or neuter is returned, per the purchase contract.


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## Thumper

> Many breeders keep AKC registration papers until proof of spay or neuter is returned, per the purchase contract.


That's a bit surprising, most breeders are protected via contract and the papers can be easily given with limited at the onset of the transaction. I would be skeptical of this, but that's just me...and from now on, I definately would never agree to that. This is the third time I've heard of papers not being sent after spay/neuter.

I just don't think it matters if one chooses to do agility or other limited sport, just that the papers were promised in contract. I don't think Joanne should be discouraged from her rights to them, I didn't mean to imply anything was said as such.

Kara


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## Havtahava

For agility and other AKC sports, you would need the registration number to enter, and I don't think most breeders give out that info if they don't have papers, which is why I asked.


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## Melissa Miller

Don't worry about me being sued. Ill be ok. And its only slander if its not true, correct? People need to know about situations like this and as long as its not an outright attack, I don't mind people posting about their situations. If I see something that scares me, I will delete it. 

Thanks
Melissa


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## Leeann

Wow this really shocks me, this is the first time I have heard of someone not getting pappers.

Kara - I was surprised when I read you got Gucci's papers up front. Most of the breeders I talked to wanted proof of spay/neuter before they would release the paper. When I got Riley I did get his registration # but no papers until he was fixed. Hmmm I never looked into if I needed the papers where I had the number? But then again anyone could make up a number.

Lina - I think I have to agree with you on your post, not just for fear but for the fact that even the best breeders are going to have a health issue at some point and by one person bashing them instead of looking at what they did to prevent any more issues in the future can be harmful to them. I think everyone on this forum does the best we can to educate each other and new people in hopes that they get a great puppy.


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## Thumper

This makes the third time I've heard of someone that was "promised" paperwork that never got it!!  Its a shame. I really hope this is a miscommunication and he sends the papers to Joanne.

I think it is a scam for backyard breeders to say that the dog is registered to get more $$ and then never send papers. I'm sure there are breeders that DO keep their word, but always a few crooks. I guess I've only heard of the crooks so far, but I see that others have had a good experience with this.

We paid for full registration on Gucci, and my husband negotiated that one. I didn't even realize it until I went to mail in her stuff, he forgot to tell me! lol......we didnt' want to breed,but the right to show. My husband was a bit hung up on wanting full registration on a purebred dog.

Kara


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## ama0722

Small claims court can be a nightmare but I would think AKC would have some registration of the dog right that maybe you could just prove you are the owner? Doesn't the breeder have to register the litter? Do you know anyone with a litter mate you can look up? Maybe some of the breeders can help here? Does your contract state AKC papers? I know AKC is just a registry but that makes me think they would have some record?

Amanda


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## Doggie Nut

What a travesty! This person needs to be exposed and suffer some consequences for ripping off trusting people who are in the market for a pet to love and have as a companion or to show. All the best to you as you make decisions to help rectify this situation. Valentino sends love lickies to Skiver!


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## Jane

Havtahava said:


> Many breeders keep AKC registration papers until proof of spay or neuter is returned, per the purchase contract.


Yes, I agree. Lincoln was neutered very early, just before I got him, so my breeder gave me his limited AKC reg papers along with him. But when I got Scout I didn't not get the AKC paperwork because we were advised to wait until later to have him neutered. After I sent my breeder proof of neuter, she sent in the paperwork to AKC for his limited registration, which I got in the mail just after that.


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## brandy

I agree with Melissa. It's my understanding as well that it is only slander if it's not true as she stated. And even if someone is sued over a comment the only way to win a settlement is to prove a loss from it right? I think everyone should be able to share their experiences without holding back but definetly stick to the facts. After all this is still America with freedom of speech.


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## Thumper

Well, if Melissa says its okay to name the breeder, than I am by no means discouraging it!

I hope nobody else gets blindsighted by this scam (it sure is sounding like one!)

Kara


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## Laurief

Jolynn, You had health problems with Skiver and can't get your papers. This breeder sounds a little "less" like a breeder. Good luck to you on getting your papers. At least you have the beautiful Skiver!!


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## SMARTY

Thanks Melissa, could we have a breeder reference section? It could list just the facts, space for that only. Something that would allow for buyers to make their own decision based on the experience of the others on the forum. I would not want it to be something that would allow for: I heard, someone said, 15 years ago they………I would like to see something that would give a guide or warning to future buyers. 

There are always two sides to every story. So there could also be a rebuttal section for the breeder. 

We know some people will never be happy and expect more than they should but, I think the breeders that do a good job would like the positive that could come from this.


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## jolynn

I have never named this breeder publicly because of the problems I have had. I would gladly name a good breeder publicly if they gave me permission. 

I have a contract that said I would get papers after he was neutered. I never received any info on the parents (AKC numbers) or any health information. I was an uninformed puppy buyer. I am no longer uninformed, thanks to this forum. I just wish this breeder would never do the same thing to other pups or people, but I'm afraid he has and will continue. It's unfortunate. When you pick up a dog, and the first BM they have is bloody (fresh blood) from irritation, you know that pup was not being taken care of properly.
Then when you can't get the proper papers, when they avoid you, you know there is a problem with the papers. I got screwed, I'm sure. Live and learn.


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## Julie

I can tell you contacting the AKC is a waste of time.They do nothing--absolutely nothing...except tell you there is nothing they can do,and to try to work it out with the breeder.

Sorry to be the wet blanket here,but the bottom line is aside from court and kissing his butt--there is nothing you can do.


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## dschles

jolynn said:


> I have never named this breeder publicly because of the problems I have had. I would gladly name a good breeder publicly if they gave me permission.


I don't understand why dog owners on this forum are so secretive about where they got their dogs. Does anyone know if this is typical of other breeds, something unique in the Havanese world, or part of the culture on this forum?

I absolutely agree with Smarty -- why not have a section where people describe their experiences -- good and bad -- with their breeders? Or even just a lineage section -- this is my dog, he is from x breeder, his parents are __ and __. What is the big deal?


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## SMARTY

Dschles.......My point exactly. We help each other with all the little stuff but are unwilling to help with the direction of purchase. That should be our major concern, if I choose to use a breeder that did not give someone their papers than that is my choice.


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## Havtahava

There are no secrets where I got my dogs. It is even posted on my web site for anyone to see. Heck, it is in the Havanese Gallery too.

I suppose if anyone would like to make sure they don't come across as badmouthing a breeder, they can list their dog in the Havanese Gallery (www.havanesegallery.hu) and then put a link to their dog's HG page in their signature line and let anyone else figure out their breeder from there.


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## Alexa

I was wondering the same thing. When potential puppy buyers inquire, they are directed to the threads that show what they "should do". I almost think it would be more effective to point them towards the threads that show what can happen if they don't do their research (e.g. threads like this one, or the threads showing dogs with CD and how they are hurting). 

Also, it doesn't always have to be all negative...I mean there are lots of great looking dogs on here and I am often curious as to where they came from in case we do ever get another one and it would be great to just be able to look that up. (although I am not sure I'll ever go the puppy route again - remind me later, will ya?). 

Alexa


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## Thumper

Well, what about a "bad experiences with breeders" thread? 

Joanne, I hope you don't feel pressured, and I certainly understand that you probably don't want to lose your chance to get papers (if there IS any chance of that at this point)

Does your breeder come here? 

I'd also think it would be nice to know which breeders have the liver problems in their lines  Or other issues that aren't listed on the other testing.

Kara


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## Julie

I don't think there are secrets as to WHO your breeder is....but a long time ago we were told we were not to be posting puppies for sale on here,and so I assumed from that you were really not supposed to be promoting a certain breeder etc.also.I don't think I am the only one that made that leap.I think also there is a reluctance to recommend a breeder because if you recommend and there is a fluke and perhaps something does turn up wrong with the pup,they can come back on here and say"You Said This/You Said That" type of crap that we were all supposed to grow out of in the 3rd grade.I think Kimberly is right--if you want to know someone's pedigree of their dog,go to the havanese gallery,or instead,if they are a member here--instead of going behind their backs and "fart smelling" just ask,they should be able to answer you or direct you somewhere.What happened to go to the HCA website and get recommendations?I know that is what we were supposed to tell them before.I'm not for/or against any of this,but I do think this was all hashed out once before.eace:


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## Julie

Joanne,
I would not publicly announce who your breeder is----and you shouldn't be pressured to post it either:hug:


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## Thumper

Julie, you're right. As usual, dear 

What if someone does recommend a breeder and heaven forbid something goes wrong? We can only recommend so much...that the breeder does all the right health testing, and that doesn't even guarantee that every litter will turn out perfect w/o any health issues, sadly.

Kara


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## Havtahava

That's right. As another breeder just posted (via one of the e-mail groups), "Health testing gives you an edge, not a guarantee." I prefer to have the advantage of weeding out some of the obvious problems by doing all of the health testing required for the CHIC as well as a couple of others for my own peace of mind, but it isn't going to guarantee a perfect dog.


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## jolynn

My breeder has shown up on this forum disguised as a regular dog owner to see what I post, and has posted. That's why I don't say who it is. I caught him at it. So to be that sneaky is to be someone who has something to hide. I won't say his name publicly.


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## Julie

Well--Joanne--we all want what is best for you and Skiver.I would hate to see you pressured into something you are not comfortable doing.I would try to work with him to get your papers as much as possible--and when you have exhausted all your means,you will then have a choice--court or publicly speaking.I don't mean here--but everyone knows there is nothing worse then a disgruntled customer.Make someone happy,they tell a FEW,make someone unhappy,they tell EVERYONE.If he is smart,he'll fork up some papers......be persistant and forthright--but nice too.It's hard,but I know--believe me--I know.


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## jolynn

I don't know his address, he moved. He doesn't answer my emails.


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## mckennasedona

I suppose we are all afraid of repercussions but I'm not sure why. I'll start. My beloved Havanese girls are: Lil Pawz McKenna born 4/9/04 and Lil Pawz Sedona born 3/7/05. They are both healthy and beautiful and both are from health tested parents. I am required to CERF them yearly and report the results to my breeder, which I do. I received my registration papers in a timely manner after both girls were spayed. My breeder has a public web site so what's the difference between any of you happening upon that web site or my telling you where my girls are from?


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## jolynn

True. This breeder has a public website as well. If you Google havanese in west palm florida it comes up first. But I never gave you his name.........


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## Julie

mckennasedona said:


> I suppose we are all afraid of repercussions but I'm not sure why. I'll start. My beloved Havanese girls are: Lil Pawz McKenna born 4/9/04 and Lil Pawz Sedona born 3/7/05. They are both healthy and beautiful and both are from health tested parents. I am required to CERF them yearly and report the results to my breeder, which I do. I received my registration papers in a timely manner after both girls were spayed. My breeder has a public web site so what's the difference between any of you happening upon that web site or my telling you where my girls are from?


I don't think anyone's afraid....but I don't think a public bashing on a bad breeder experience is going to benefit anyone...especially where others could of had a great experience with the same breeder.That is my point.There are many "not-so-great" breeders with websites too.....that's the sad part.eace:


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## Squirt

I did the Google mentioned above, and I haven't had a problem with the breeder that comes up first on my list. (**knocking on wood here**)


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## jolynn

No, I'm sure that several people have had good luck with this breeder. I'm just stating what my experience has been. And my dog is beautiful, I love him to pieces. He is small; still only just below 5 pounds and almost a year old. And no health records, so I am knocking on wood that it will never turn out to be liver problems. This is why I never blurted out the breeders name publicly. I'm sure there may be dogs here that have come from him that people have had good experiences, but I'm sure there are many others who have not. (well, I know of some, let's just say that). I'll just shut up now.


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## mckennasedona

I apologize for not being clear. I didn't mean to imply that a public web site makes for a good breeder, only that my naming mine isn't really any different from any of you googling Havanese and coming up with the same web site. After that, it's up to each person to do their own research. My posting my girls breeder and stating that I know they come from health tested parents means just that. Nothing more, nothing less. 

Susan


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## Julie

jolynn said:


> I don't know his address, he moved. He doesn't answer my emails.


I would wait a couple months and google him or search for him once he is established somewhere else.He won't want to lose money on selling his pups.He'll go public again.


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## dschles

I can't imagine your breeder is that hard to find. He has a website, and I am guessing that Squirt was just purchased from him.

I'd have to think that at some point he would rather have you post that you finally reached him and you got the papers, so he is not all bad... Of course, if he keeps holding back on you, he will never see such a positive post!


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## Thumper

Squirt said:


> I did the Google mentioned above, and I haven't had a problem with the breeder that comes up first on my list. (**knocking on wood here**)


Well.....Here's the solution! Squirt was just acquired, what ? 4 days ago or so? Maybe you could PM Joanne and let her know his contact info so she can talk to him?

Since he's not answering emails, I would call...too bad you aren't closer and can't just knock on his door!

If there is some reason why Skiver can't be registered, than he atleast needs to inform you of that. I would rather know the truth than be given the runaround. Just ask him.

Have you done a bile acid test on him yet? Is his liver okay?

Kara


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## Havtahava

Joanne, I asked an e-mail group where there are a lot of breeders and they said that the AKC usually will help if you have a certain amount of information. She said that since AKC makes money on each registration, they don't like when a breeder holds the papers because that cuts into funds for them. (Makes a little more sense to me now.) Registration _is_ their primary purpose.

Can you get the following information together:
- Skiver's date of birth
- Owner of Skiver's mother at the time he was born
- Registered name of both of Skiver's parents and/or their registration numbers (this may be in your contract or found on the breeder's web site)
- Breeder's name

Send as many of those details to AKC as well as a copy of your letter to the breeder requesting the registration papers and file a formal complaint.

I hope this helps.


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## jolynn

Kimberly:
That definately helps!! I have all that information and I will get it together tonight. 

Thanks!


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## Havtahava

Oh, good. I wasn't sure if you would have the info on the parents.

I wish it would have had a different (quick) resolution through the breeder, but if you can get it this way, I hope it can happen simply.


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## Julie

Havtahava said:


> Joanne, I asked an e-mail group where there are a lot of breeders and they said that the AKC usually will help if you have a certain amount of information. She said that since AKC makes money on each registration, they don't like when a breeder holds the papers because that cuts into funds for them. (Makes a little more sense to me now.) Registration _is_ their primary purpose.
> 
> Can you get the following information together:
> - Skiver's date of birth
> - Owner of Skiver's mother at the time he was born
> - Registered name of both of Skiver's parents and/or their registration numbers (this may be in your contract or found on the breeder's web site)
> - Breeder's name
> 
> Send as many of those details to AKC as well as a copy of your letter to the breeder requesting the registration papers and file a formal complaint.
> 
> I hope this helps.


I had all this and they wouldn't help at all---just like farting in the wind.I hope they have changed......in the past 6 months.I guess there is always hope!:biggrin1:


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## SMARTY

Hey, when I mentioned a thread that would allow buyers info on breeders I was thinking positive and negative. Not something that would guarantee anything or would destroy a breeder, just something organized that would allow the buyer to look and say XYZ has had 10 negatives & 2 positives and ABC only has positives.


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## Julie

If Skiver and Squirt came from the same breeder(I assume)perhaps Squirt's Mom can be the go-between.Hopefully she has a good repor with them and can talk to them on your behalf.Just a thought--but I would exhaust all avenues you can,as I think you should get what you paid for.It's just the principal of it.


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## Beamer

I agree with starting a thread devoted to information on various breeders.. good and bad! Why not? If you buy a $1500 dog, I think you should be able to voice your opinions on where it came from. If you buy a car, you can post all you want about how great or crappy it is, and GM and Ford wont sue you?! (I say GM and Ford because domestic cars give me the runs..)


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## whitBmom

freeway1976 said:


> (I say GM and Ford because domestic cars give me the runs..)


That was a good one  ound: ound: ound:


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## good buddy

SMARTY said:


> Hey, when I mentioned a thread that would allow buyers info on breeders I was thinking positive and negative. Not something that would guarantee anything or would destroy a breeder, just something organized that would allow the buyer to look and say XYZ has had 10 negatives & 2 positives and ABC only has positives.


I think something like that would be nice. It would be the same thing as checking the feedback on an eBay seller. Breeders could be listed and if anyone has bought from them, they could post a rating....something like a smilie face or a frownie face, or even a straight face. Then if someone wanted to know more they could PM the person and find out just what happened.

Joanne I sure hope you get some help from AKC on this. Please let us know what happens with them.


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## casperkeep

I hope you can get some answers soon...it is too bad that this has happened!!!!


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## marjrc

I think it sucks what is happening to you about Skiver's papers, Joanne. Like many other Hav owners, I also had to prove that Ricky was neutered before his breeder would give him his CKC papers. I thought it only fair and had no problem at all. I hope with the info Kimberly has given you, you'll be able to get your papers that way.

Skiver does sound small, but I cringe when I see ads for 'teeny, tiny Havanese' or mini ones and they weigh even less than Skiver does. Makes me want to strangle those sellers!

I have no problem denouncing those types of breeders. The ones on auction websites especially. GRRRRRR ! here's one: http://www.petsbid.com/search.asp?searchtxt=thepuppynursery&searchtype=2 I emailed the seller with simple questions on his Hav puppies' health and this is what I got in reply:

*"Subject: Re: Question regarding Item # 5710*

*The pups are all tested at the university for hips and eyes .
the university (cornell) also looks for all possible problems that could arise
full blood tests are also done on each puppy every 21 days .
The sire and dam are also tested yearly and complete a marathon thru a course of 20 milesand rough terrain before they can be bred - (huh? Why do this??)
MY sires have had tests also done for sexually transmited disease including anal warts.
All the puppies are xrayed to check bone density as well.
dna tests are done to confirm the sire and dam genetics are correct.
Dna samples are stores for 10 years on each puppy should a clone ever be needed - (WHAT??? A 'clone'?? yikes!)thanks for your inquiry"*

Like I said, this kind of "breeder" deserves to be publicly named because he's full of sh**! Of course, that might just be my humble opinion....... LOL

There is a chance, however, for all kinds of trouble if we're allowed to publicly say 'Oh no. Don't get a pup from THAT breeder!' I mean, if he/she's a backyard breeder, owns a puppy mill or intentionally disregards the pup's/dam's/sire's health, then I say "Blast them!" They get what they deserve. What about, like some of you have said, the one pup owner who just has a bad experience with that one pup? Or the breeder has no manners or doesn't provide information when asked. I wish Ricky's breeder was a more involved breeder, but that doesn't make her a bad breeder. It's just my opinion that I'd like for her to be more interested in ALL her pups, not just the show dogs and I'd like her to encourage ALL her pups' owners to health test.

I like the idea of saying from where we bought our Havs, but maybe personal opinions that aren't really in the pups' interest should be kept to PM's.


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## marjrc

Sorry...... I forgot to include the post I sent the seller I mentioned in the above message. Here is what I asked him:

*Hi, I was wondering about the health testing done on the pups you offer, as well as on their dam and sire. Who are the dam and sire and what is their pedigree? I am interested in a healthy, happy Havanese, but I would like to know more about the ones that you are selling at this site. Is there a website I can visit for more information? thank you. posted by: marjrc 9/17/2007 2:16:42 PM *


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## jolynn

Are STDs in Havanese a real problem? Anal warts? Are they HIV tested? Geesh!!! 20 mile hikes? Clones? What's he raising, dogs or Marines????
:frusty:


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## KristinFusco

Hi Joanne!

I am sorry to hear about all that you are going through in trying to obtain Skiver's AKC papers. I think the breeder was being sarcastic with Marj (in my opinion  ), which he shouldn't have been because those are very valid questions. It is funny that you mention STDs in dogs because in my Evolution in Cancer course this semester, we are currently covering Canine Transmissable Venereal Tumor. It is one of the only types of cancer known to be passed during copulation in any species. BUT, most dogs' immune system can eradicate the problem within a few months, so it usually goes away on its own, unless the dog is immune compromised. Before that lecture, I never thought about dogs getting STDs! How strange!

~Kristin


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## Havtahava

And yes, there is a very common STD in dogs (not just Havs) called Brucellosis, so any breeder should be getting the blood test done prior to each breeding. It is not only transmitted sexually, but by casual touch. However, I have not heard of anal warts being a problem. That seems like an odd comment to throw in... heck, so does the STD testing. I get it done prior to every breeding, but it isn't something I'd write to a buyer about unless they asked first. Odd.


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## Julie

I didn't even know there was an auction site for puppies/dogs.GOOD GRIEF!uke:


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## marjrc

Yup, Julie, it IS sickening!!!!!


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