# CUBA'S SECOND SEASON DIARY



## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Anyone up for another x-certificate thread? I thought it might just be interesting to compare Cuba's first season with the second? It might end up being so repetitious and boring that I'll give up on it, but thought to make a start just in case it is wildly different and therefore perhaps useful in some way?

NOT that it's started yet. 

The first began on January 23rd, and ended on February 12th; so we are now roughly 6 months since then; according to my season bible, The Book of the Bitch, the average inter-oestrous period lasts seven months, but "periods of between five to 10 months are considered normal." Interestingly, the cycle period in German Shepherd dogs is significantly shorter (four to four and a half - I wonder why?), and African breeds such as the Basenji are said to cycle only once a year but this is beginning to change after years of domestication. More frequent heats can be associated with infertility. One of the signs that problems were brewing with my first Coton de Tulear, Pamba, was that she had her second season only three months after her first, and then a third about four months after that....not good.

So, just in case anyone is interested who doesn't know a million times more about all of this than I do (forgive me, all breeders out there, I know you are far more knowledgeable - this is the layman's take on the subject, and PLEASE put me right if I'm barking up wrong trees...), here are the oestrous cycle phases:

a) Pro-oestrus: lasts on average 9 days (range 2 to 27 days). This is the beginning of heat. The vulva swells and there is bleeding. The bitch is attractive to dogs but won't let them mate with her.
b) Oestrus: lasts on average 9 days (range 3 to 21 days). This stage is when the bitch will allow males to mate with her. The vulva is much enlarged. The discharge is straw-coloured rather than red. Ovulation occurs spontaneously, usually about 2 days after the start of oestrus.
c) Met-oestrus: lasts an average of 90 days. This stage occurs in the un-mated bitch where hormones equivalent to pregnancy are present that may result in signs of false pregnancy.
d) Anoestrus: this varies, but is, on average 75 days. This is the bit between cycles, a period of sexual inactivity. The duration of anoestrus usually determines how frequently the bitch will come into season.

So I am on the look out for any changes, and imagine that my best indicator will be Tycho's behaviour (he's my neutered Coton de Tulear, for anyone out there unfamiliar with his escapades last time around!) towards Cuba, and hers towards him. I don't expect much to happen for a bit, but you never know, so I'll start checking for any discharge - easy, a quick white-tissue wipe every day should show up any colour changes - and keep anyone posted who's interested. 

Meantime, just to add that Cuba showed no signs of any false pregnancy which, had it been going to occur, would have done so in the three months or so after her season ended, in other words mid February to mid May.


----------



## Karen Collins (Mar 21, 2013)

are you planning on breeding?


----------



## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Karen Collins said:


> are you planning on breeding?


No, I'm not, Karen. I've been around the houses checking out all the latest science thinking on when to neuter and, after much debate with myself and others (some of it here on this forum) decided to let Cuba have two seasons before considering a laparoscopic spay. Then there was a bit of research I read suggesting that bitches who are not spayed until after their sixth birthday live the longest...I'm still trying to get to grips with that one and see what others think of it but mostly people (including vets) don't read the literature. I think it's only one bit of data, which doesn't entirely convince me. There is a lot of argument in favour of letting an animal reach complete adulthood before neutering, so that's where I've been headed. Obviously for those who have a very difficult time of it, where seasons are hard to manage, then there are other considerations, but if you glance at a previous thread, "Cuba's First Season Diary" you'll see that I really didn't have any problems. It's possible that it will all be more difficult this time, I don't know yet, hence Part Two of what became known as the 'x-rated thread'!!


----------



## Karen Collins (Mar 21, 2013)

Oh! Cool! I will read your previous thread. I totally agree with you on waiting to spay. Just so long as you are responsible when she is in season and it sounds like you are, it really is better for the bitch. I use cute little potty panties for toy dogs and line with a panty liner to keep mine from messing up the house and furniture. Seasons are just not a big deal. Unless you have intact males in the house! Then of course, its a whole different ballgame.

Thanks for posting this for other pet owners. Vets have trained everyone to spay spay spay. Not because its whats best for the bitch, but to control population.

From the first sign of blood till 30 days past that, I keep my girls under close watch. My Dance has an unusually long cycle and ovulates around day 19. But the little hussie will breed from day 10 - day 30!!! Don't know if all Havs or toys do this. She's our first Hav. I've only bred larger dogs in the past. Most all had 21 day cycles with ovulation between day 10-13. Dance also goes almost 1 yr between cycles. 

Oh, one final thought. I have a 9 yr old Tibetan Terrier that had her last litter at age 5 and I had her spayed at age 8. She is healthy and happy! I expect her to live past 15 which is the max age her ancestors have lived. But I also haven't vaccinated her since her puppy shots. She's my little experiment in healthy living.

Sorry to highjack your thread chasing bunnies!


----------



## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Karen Collins said:


> Oh! Cool! I will read your previous thread. I totally agree with you on waiting to spay. Just so long as you are responsible when she is in season and it sounds like you are, it really is better for the bitch. I use cute little potty panties for toy dogs and line with a panty liner to keep mine from messing up the house and furniture. Seasons are just not a big deal. Unless you have intact males in the house! Then of course, its a whole different ballgame.
> 
> Thanks for posting this for other pet owners. Vets have trained everyone to spay spay spay. Not because its whats best for the bitch, but to control population.
> 
> ...


I don't remotely feel hijacked! All contributions welcome! I hope, when you've read the previous thread, you think that I was responsible enough to go a second round; I'm probably boringly responsible! Cuba was never once alone in the garden during her first season - we have few dogs in our central Oxford area, high walls, gates and an internal fence so that even if the gates are opened the dogs can't get near them - a sort of double insurance. But I'm super careful, and realise that a determined suitor could pretty easily scale a high wall....nothing did happen, but I'm not going to give up on the vigilance. 
Vets in this country (UK) are very keen on spaying, driven largely, as I understand it, by rescue centres and policy there. Which is understandable. But it doesn't mean that responsible pet owners should be treated the same way and the lazy lumping of us all together annoys me - the health of our pets is what matters. My vet was not particularly in favour of laparoscopic spaying either until he went to a conference and listened to a surgeon extolling the virtues of such procedures. I'd done all that research already and had already told him what I'd discovered, but hey, it takes another professional to do the persuading! It's more expensive here, but I'd rather save up and forgo something for me if it made my precious dog suffer less. So that's the plan, when the time comes. Although I'm still not convinced yet as to when that time will be. I do clearly understand the risks involved in not spaying - I've looked hard at the statistics. But there are risks on both sides and in the end you can only make the best educated decision possible and understand that there will always be factors that you can't foresee. You can only do your best with the information that's out there.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I'm reading with interest in case I end up with a girl in the future!


----------



## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> I'm reading with interest in case I end up with a girl in the future!


Hullo, Karen! Well, nothing to report yet, but I do recommend the girls! Cuba is such a little dear, very different from my boy Coton and very different from my previous (girl) Coton, so her own thing entirely. But I think they are all such individuals, our dogs.

I'll post again as soon as there's some indication that there might be something to report! Meantime, I hope your boy is thriving.


----------



## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

A not very interesting update: I was, it would appear, jumping the gun. So far so nothing. Well, perhaps a bit more licking but I don't think significantly so. I suppose the waiting and wondering is part of the diary anyway, but it's not very exciting to say I'm waiting and wondering! Tycho seems to be taking marginally more interest in her, but it's a pretty small margin.

So bear with me, anyone following this, sorry not to have waited a bit longer. Season Two (it sounds like a DVD boxed set, doesn't it!) must be due fairly soon, but I suppose could be a while yet. Or not....I'll check in soon.


----------



## Celesthav (Mar 20, 2013)

Cuba's 1st season has helped a lot of people that I referred over to your postings. Keep it up. I'm sure 2nd season will be informative too. 
Hope the international quilt show was wonderful with lots of great entries, ideas and booths for picking up more supplies 
Jeanne & Maggie


----------



## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

op2: Hi how many months ago was her first season? Mine have been like clock work every six months. And they like to come into season together. Zoey who is three mo younger started first and maddie was about a week later. Zoey was 6 mo old and Maddie 9 mo old. The only thing I don't like is they seem to mark. I don't know if this is because I have two? The place they like to leave a piddle is on my bed. and a couple of times on my old couch. I have learned to add thick layers of sheets during that time. The worst thing that happened to me was at my sisters house. She has a neutered American Eskimo. We were all out in her yard when I heard Maddie crying. Well she was being dragged across the lawn by Carter. We didn't know what to do and did the worst thing by just pulling him off her. I latter learned that you wait or use water? Any way Neutered males still have interest and can engage. The next season I watched him like a hawk. I think he remembered his first love not to be so great..


----------



## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

I wanted to add to my last post that both mine go through a coat change after a heat cycle. Its not as bad a blowing a coat but both have been twice the work about a mo after. This time around Zoey was worse than Maddie as far as her coat. It got even thicker and is matting bad. Maddie needs to be put on canned food because she seems to get dehydrated more and doesn't like as much water than Zoey. I've also added a cranberry supplement they lick them selves so much that I get worried about UTI. I don't use dippers because I work and cant change them. But I have not had any problem at all just letting them clean themselves. I have gone through a total of seven cycles x 2  I was happy to hear your research about up to six years for a spay. One more added note. Maddie did go into false pregnancy she had a toy that she hid in a laundry basket and spent hours in my closet. I ended up taking the toy away. A part of me wonders if that was mean? I took her baby.


----------



## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Celesthav said:


> Cuba's 1st season has helped a lot of people that I referred over to your postings. Keep it up. I'm sure 2nd season will be informative too.
> Hope the international quilt show was wonderful with lots of great entries, ideas and booths for picking up more supplies
> Jeanne & Maggie


So glad if it helped anyone, Jeanne; I'm so aware that others on this site must have hugely more experience than I, Suzi for one, obviously. But I'll keep on, though nothing much going on yet; they are playing together a bit more boisterously, I think, although I could be reading things into not much of a difference. Last time around Tycho had a wonderful few weeks so, yes, it's true that neutered males can seem to forget that they aren't supposed to be interested; Cuba wasn't trying to put him off, either, she was flirting for England. I didn't have any of the coat changing issue afterwards, or any noticeable changes in eating or drinking patterns. I'll see what I can find out about taking toys away in false pregnancy - my instinct would be to let them have their 'baby', I can't quite see why one would want to deprive the bitch of this surrogate, but I expect others might put me right? I'll try looking it up somewhere, or ask my vet or breeder.


----------



## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

*DAY ONE*

we have lift off; day one - she's been licking and keeping herself clean so assiduously that it has been hard to notice the start of bleeding, but it's definitely started. Tycho doesn't seem to have noticed particularly, so we haven't hit x-certification yet; watch this space!! She's quite clingy and a bit whiney tonight, but ate a really good supper (naked green tripe, her favourite!). So off we go on Season Two.


----------



## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Lalla if you do find out and remember could you PM me. I felt really bad about taking her baby but she was being really strange she wouldn't come out of the closet.  I would love to be able to afford the newer surgery for spaying. One of the big reasons I haven't done it is I want to be home with them for a week. I had it all planed and then Zoey went into heat. My vet recamends a three mo waiting after the cycle says its better for them to get their harmonies back to normal.


----------



## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

*DAY THREE*

Missed a day, but I almost thought I'd got Day One wrong because there seemed to be no sign whatsoever, but today she is definitely bleeding, and quite flirty and frisky. Tycho hasn't revved up an interest yet, but I expect he will - he's almost as useful an indicator as to where we are as she is!

I've looked up "false pregnancy" in the Book of the Bitch; I don't know if this is the advice everyone would give, I have a feeling that there are probably various schools of thought on how one should approach the various issues, but here, for what it is worth, is what they say:

"With regard to treatment, it is worth noting that the condition is really a normal occurrence in that something like 60 per cent of bitches have false pregnancy to some degree. Indeed, in the wild state or in a breeding kennel, false pregnant bitches will be capable of nursing a litter from a bitch that has died, so the condition serves a useful purpose for the species. [sic...see note at the end from me!!] If the signs are mild it is probably better not to give treatment. The nervous signs will disappear more quickly if the bitch is denied sympathy and if toys and brooding objects are removed. Less milk will be produced if the carbohydrate content of the diet is reduced, if the bitch's water intake is reduced somewhat (she must not of course be denied access to water entirely for long periods) and if the amount of exercise is increased. If the signs are severe and the actions mentioned above do not lead to an improvement, veterinary assistance should be sought."

Well, on the 'see note' point, just to say that this is group selectionist stuff long since disproven - it is for the good of the individual, not the species; this will be kin selection - the bitch would, in the wild, be likely to share genes with any orphaned or abandoned pup and would nurture it for that reason, not for the good of the species.

As for the rest, I daresay there are breeders on this forum who might well have other ideas? It doesn't seem obvious to me that denying sympathy and removing surrogate "pups"/toys is necessarily a good idea, but I would defer to experts and would love to hear if anyone has any thoughts on it? Cuba showed no signs of false pregnancy after Season One that I was aware of, so I have no experience.

So far all is pretty quiet around here and I'm not yet worrying too much about guarding her with my life whenever she is in the garden - she stays within my eyesight when she's out there but there is no sign of any interest from Tycho and the neighbourhood is not echoing to the barks of males pursuivant...


----------



## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

*STILL DAY THREE*

Well we've gone from nice family entertainment to x-certificate in a matter of a couple of hours. She is flirting with him and trying to get him interested, and he is now obliging every few minutes in a frantic scramble around the room, tussling and runlikehelling and then going at it and then hurtling around a bit with Tycho apparently trying to escape her amorous advances - he's already looking fairly worn out!! They've both just stopped, as I write, for a well-earned drink.


----------



## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

*DAY FOUR*

I've been out a lot today and my husband has been on garden alert; everything has been peaceful all day apparently; I came home this afternoon and they were sleeping a lot (not surprised - a lot of energy expended last evening!!), trotting outside for breaks, going back to sleep. Then this evening it all hotted up again, at least on Cuba's side. She has been pursuing him relentlessly, jumping on him, rolling over at his feet, and chasing him around the room. He is doing his best to avoid her at the moment, totally different from yesterday. Maybe he just wants a day off? She is such a flirt, it's really quite interesting watching the variations on the theme as she tries every tactic she can think up to get him interested.


----------



## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

*DAY FIVE*

THIS SHOULD READ DAY SIX, NOT FIVE - I CAN'T COUNT!
Well, I have either mis-calculated and we are further into the whole thing than I thought, OR it's nonsense that "the bitch is attractive to dogs but won't let them mate with her" in the pro-oestrus 9 days after bleeding begins. Cuba is more than interested, it's poor Tycho who is being hounded hither and thither; it's quite funny seeing him trying to side-step her advances. I am being super-vigilant, meantime; I suppose it's possible that there could be a beginning of pro-oestrus with no vulval swelling and no bleeding, and if that is the case I could, of course, be off with my calculations. I'll stick to thinking I'm on Day Five though, just for the sake of continuity, but watch her as if she is perhaps already in oestrus....does anyone else have any experience of a complete no-show beginning? I did test every day, as advised, with a clean white cloth to see if there was any bleed, but there was none. Tycho WAS interested on Day Three, but so was she, and now he's the one who's gone off the boil - maybe he's just worn out already, in which case he's in for a rough ride!!


----------



## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Mine get interested in each other within the first week . Zoey acts different around my sisters male I call it a dance and it is a bit latter . My two just hump each other. Its funny because they take turns. I think Maddie is in false heat right now. She is acting very needy and wont eat or drink as much.


----------



## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Suzi said:


> Mine get interested in each other within the first week . Zoey acts different around my sisters male I call it a dance and it is a bit latter . My two just hump each other. Its funny because they take turns. I think Maddie is in false heat right now. She is acting very needy and wont eat or drink as much.


That's v helpful, Suzi; Cuba, too, is off her food at the moment, hasn't eaten now for 24 hours, but she is drinking as normal. She seems to vacillate between very sleepy and hyper-active; Tycho's just worn out!!


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> Missed a day, but I almost thought I'd got Day One wrong because there seemed to be no sign whatsoever, but today she is definitely bleeding, and quite flirty and frisky. Tycho hasn't revved up an interest yet, but I expect he will - he's almost as useful an indicator as to where we are as she is!.


It's standard operating procedure to use a pony stallion or "proud cut" gelding (one where some testicular material was missed when gelding) as a "teaser", to help deterime when the mare is in "standing heat" and ready to be bred... It sounds like Tycho is serving that purpose for you! 

As far as false pregnancies are concerned, I have no personal experience, of course, but i have a friend who breeds Newfies. She has one bitch who has a false pregnancy almost every time she goes into heat, unless she is bred. She has a bunch of stuffed animal snakes that she uses as her "babies". She carries them around, nuzzles them up against her side to "nurse" and generally moons around over them for a couple of weeks before she gives it up and gets back to normal. My friend doesn't purposely encourage her behavior, but she doesn't ever take Ellie's "babies" away, either, until she's ready to give them up on her own.


----------



## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

krandall said:


> It's standard operating procedure to use a pony stallion or "proud cut" gelding (one where some testicular material was missed when gelding) as a "teaser", to help deterime when the mare is in "standing heat" and ready to be bred... It sounds like Tycho is serving that purpose for you!
> 
> As far as false pregnancies are concerned, I have no personal experience, of course, but i have a friend who breeds Newfies. She has one bitch who has a false pregnancy almost every time she goes into heat, unless she is bred. She has a bunch of stuffed animal snakes that she uses as her "babies". She carries them around, nuzzles them up against her side to "nurse" and generally moons around over them for a couple of weeks before she gives it up and gets back to normal. My friend doesn't purposely encourage her behavior, but she doesn't ever take Ellie's "babies" away, either, until she's ready to give them up on her own.


 I was lucky this time that she didn't have any toys around to adopt. I guess it can prolong the symptom. If she is a close friend can you ask her if her girl licks herself more.? I'm still worried and I started a new job that doesn't correspond with a vet visit. I don't want to go to an emergency vet. She doesn't have any discharge and her urine seems fine. But I'm concerned.


----------



## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> It's standard operating procedure to use a pony stallion or "proud cut" gelding (one where some testicular material was missed when gelding) as a "teaser", to help deterime when the mare is in "standing heat" and ready to be bred... It sounds like Tycho is serving that purpose for you!
> 
> As far as false pregnancies are concerned, I have no personal experience, of course, but i have a friend who breeds Newfies. She has one bitch who has a false pregnancy almost every time she goes into heat, unless she is bred. She has a bunch of stuffed animal snakes that she uses as her "babies". She carries them around, nuzzles them up against her side to "nurse" and generally moons around over them for a couple of weeks before she gives it up and gets back to normal. My friend doesn't purposely encourage her behavior, but she doesn't ever take Ellie's "babies" away, either, until she's ready to give them up on her own.


DAY SEVEN

I remember you telling us of your Newfie with the snake-babies, Karen; my instinct would be the same - NOT to take away the 'babies', I can't see that that would be a kind thing to do. Does it matter if a false pregnancy is prolonged?? It's not immediately obvious to me that this is a bad state to be in?
Re pony stallions and 'proud cuts'. that's interesting; Tycho is a definitely not a stallion or, as far as I know, with any testicular material still intact....but he is definitely an indicator, and certainly doesn't seem to know himself that all his efforts are in genetic vain. At least I'm not worried about either of them being without enough exercise at the moment, they are tearing about the place and getting mountains (or mountings?) of exercise....


----------



## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

*DAY TEN*

At least I think it's day ten; I have been so scrambled with work and life getting in the way that I know I've been a bit lax in the updates. Today was the first day I've been properly at home since August 24th...it's been a bit of a rough time. My husband has been brilliant holding the fort and guarding against any marauding males - there haven't been any, but you never know. I'm fairly sure Cuba must be well and truly into oestrus now - Tycho is hurtling around after her and she is flirting remorselessly. The bleeding has turned to a colourless sort of discharge, although there's so little that it's difficult to see. She is cleaning herself up with great diligence - not a single mishap since the season started, just as last time around. I've noticed a definite greater tendency for her hair to matt; she has very silky hair with virtually zero undercoat and I've (so far - I never dare get complacent about this!) had almost no problem with blowing coat or grooming nightmares. But in the last day or two there have certainly been matts to untangle that haven't been a problem before now, all of them around the back of her ears and around her neck. I don't think it's to do with Tycho's antics - he doesn't seem to get anywhere near her neck or head. Maybe it's a hormone thing that makes the hair behave differently?? And she's lost her appetite the last couple of days, though is drinking normally. She seems energetic and 'cheerful' (whatever that means), though, and I'm not worrying too much about the eating, at least for now. I'm still not worrying about exercise, either - both she and Tycho are getting plenty!!


----------



## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Suzi said:


> I wanted to add to my last post that both mine go through a coat change after a heat cycle. Its not as bad a blowing a coat but both have been twice the work about a mo after. This time around Zoey was worse than Maddie as far as her coat. It got even thicker and is matting bad. (


Just re-read this, Suzi; maybe I'm having something similar with Cuba - we are in the middle of the cycle rather than at the end, but maybe the hormone hypothesis could be something to do with it? I hope it doesn't get too much worse, so far it's manageable and she's very good at standing still while I tease out the matts.


----------



## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

*DAY SIXTEEN*

Oh, dear, I'm sorry to have been such a rotten poster; just overwhelmed with things to do. So we've skipped on (and believe me, Cuba and Tycho have skipped!) six days since my last post. Certainly the skipping around has slowed down somewhat - Tycho isn't mounting her any more although he looks as if he's thinking about it sometimes. And she's much less flirty. I'm fairly sure I must have missed the very beginning and that all these dates are out. But can't be sure. 
I suppose I can say at least that this has been entirely without any problems at all, other than that her hair is matting more. I teased out a huge matt on the inside of a back leg last night - she was good as gold, amazingly, and stood there on three legs with the other one extended so I could get to it easily, and didn't move for a good fifteen minutes-worth of working away to remove the tangles. Which all goes to show how important it is to start grooming the day the puppy comes home and do it every day. Or at least that's what seems to have worked for us. It keeps the matts at bay, but also gets so much habituation and training done at the same time. Usually she's not that keen on her legs being done, but last night she was amazing.
Anyway. I'll go on documenting the season, just for continuity. She is still swollen but there's no bleeding unless we are still in the colourless, oestrus phase and she is doing such a good job of cleaning herself up that I'm not seeing anything. I think I must be very lucky in how scrupulously clean she keeps herself - I'm sure others have a messier time of it? She's been reluctant to eat for most of this time, and I think is possibly drinking a little more, though not markedly. There seems to be no moodiness or any indication of any 'discomfort' - don't you love that word? It usually means a doctor's version of absolute agony!
Anyway, not the most interesting post except perhaps if anyone out there is worried about seasons = they really can be incredibly easy. I'm not giving up on the vigilance if she's outside. I've got my husband well-trained (lots of positive reinforcement...) too, and he watches her like a hawk if I'm out, which I have been a lot this last few weeks, unhelpfully.


----------



## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Apologies for seemingly giving up on this thread; I've been a bit up to my eyes in other stuff, as can happen to us all!

But in a way it's indicative, my absence from the post, that the season has been more or less unnoticeable; no trouble. No marauding canine visitors. No mess. No mood swings. Not much x-certification antics from Tycho - about a week of it and then he was too worn out to keep going, I think!

Maybe I'm just lucky, but I would certainly suggest that there is room for optimism when it comes to manageability of a season in the Havanese. I'd be really interested to hear if others have had totally different experiences, or if the first two are not necessarily indicators of subsequent seasons?


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> Apologies for seemingly giving up on this thread; I've been a bit up to my eyes in other stuff, as can happen to us all!
> 
> But in a way it's indicative, my absence from the post, that the season has been more or less unnoticeable; no trouble. No marauding canine visitors. No mess. No mood swings. Not much x-certification antics from Tycho - about a week of it and then he was too worn out to keep going, I think!
> 
> Maybe I'm just lucky, but I would certainly suggest that there is room for optimism when it comes to manageability of a season in the Havanese. I'd be really interested to hear if others have had totally different experiences, or if the first two are not necessarily indicators of subsequent seasons?


You make me more confident about the possibility of handling a little girl in the future!


----------



## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> You make me more confident about the possibility of handling a little girl in the future!


Karen, you could handle one little female Havanese standing on your head!!! NO problem. You'd do it FAR better than I. And you'd have help from your less little male Havanese, who'd probably be thrilled if he's anything like a very happy male Coton de Tulear!


----------



## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

Lalla said:


> I'd be really interested to hear if others have had totally different experiences, or if the first two are not necessarily indicators of subsequent seasons?


Lalla, I have been actively reading your post on your observations of Cuba. I waited until Mae went through her first cycle before I had her spayed and honestly I am so happy she's now spayed and I won't have to deal with the drama experienced on my end. I found that Tim and Mae's relationship changed during her heat and it made me sad sometimes to see the frustration and annoyance they had with each other. This didn't happen all the time but enough to make it a behavior that changed because of Mae's condition. I can say that Mae was SO done with being humped not only by Tim but other neutered males as well. It was the first time I heard her growl in anger at anyone. Tim was also on the defensive if we were out walking, on leash, and we encountered any other dog that wanted to approach Mae. In terms of messiness it wasn't bad at all she kept herself very clean. I mentioned in another post that Mae experienced a false pregnancy after her spay because of the drastic drop in hormone levels, which was kind of sad too. She's been much better lately and is again playing, tossing, and squeaking her toys appropriately. Her physical end in terms of healing were awesome, very easy but tough keeping up with the matting. Mae had her stitches taken out yesterday so now I feel like this has all been water under the bridge, we're back to taking walks, going up the stairs and NOT :whoo: having to wear doughnuts or onesies.

Karen you could handle any gender of puppy I'm sure. I will say that I get such a kick out of seeing Timmy being the big brother and I'm sure Kodi would make an awesome big brother to any little boy or girl you decide on!


----------



## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Hi, there, really nice to have someone else's experience; I guess it's a lesson that we can learn from each other - that all our dogs may have some things in common, but they are all individuals too, and generalising is (as always) a mistake. I guess, too, that Cuba is just a natural flirt! She NEVER got bored with the humping, it was poor Tychy who got worn out with her advances! All of which really only lasted for about a week, maybe a few days again after a day or so's gap. But she had a lovely time of it! I took her out to a training session - I'm still having big problems with over-reactiveness to any strange dog - and we gave her lots of extra space because of her season, but it didn't seem to impact at all; she wasn't any more or less reactive, or interested, or not. She still has a threshold which, if I push too hard, results in a lot of barking and lunging. But that's another story, just mentioning it to say that the season didn't seem to make any difference.
I'm still in two minds about spaying. She's had two seasons now. I'm mindful, in an open-minded sort of way, of the one paper I've read that says both bitches and dogs, neutered AFTER six years old, seem to be those that live the longest. I can't find much in the way of back up for that and don't know how extensive the trial was. It's interesting, I suppose, but no-one else seems to have weighed in for or against. Meantime, because it's so easy for me with Cuba, I'm not really desperate to spay her. I do realise that there are hazards but the stats on mammary cancer and pyometra in this breed seem to suggest that the risk is relatively small. And there are gains in keeping all the hormones going for bone density and, I daresay, other things. Again, anyone out there with any experience, please do add to this - I really don't know enough to be the slightest kind of expert, I just read a lot and then hope others will have read more.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> Karen, you could handle one little female Havanese standing on your head!!! NO problem. You'd do it FAR better than I. And you'd have help from your less little male Havanese, who'd probably be thrilled if he's anything like a very happy male Coton de Tulear!


Ha! I am SURE Kodi would be THRILLED with the idea of "playing house"


----------



## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

My 2 cents: In all the research I've done, there hasn't been clear benefit to spaying before or after a dog's first heat. The issues that I've read about seem to occur when a dog is spayed early (i.e. less than 6 months old) and with larger dogs, especially golden retrievers and rottweilers. Havs are a very healthy breed and it's proven by dog insurance premiums, which are much lower for Havanese than other breeds. So this leads me to conclude that health issues that may arise due to spaying are either not applicable to Havanese or to those dogs that are spayed later (i.e. 7+ months old).


----------

