# How big my havanese going to get



## Wsavio (Feb 26, 2013)

My havanese Coco is going to be 4 months march 1 and she 5 pounds 
I have no idea how long and how heavy she'll. get please help


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

How big is Mom & Dad?


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## Wsavio (Feb 26, 2013)

Dad was large but mom was small


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

You'll find out when she gets there!<g>


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

krandall said:


> You'll find out when she gets there!<g>


Oh, you smarty!! eace: But that is about right!

I asked my vet about it when my guys were small. I 'think' she said approximately double their 16 week weight. And that is pretty close to what my two ended up. Augie did gain another pound after his neuter at 16 months.


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## whimsy (Apr 3, 2010)

Never can really tell. Whimsy is bigger then her parents.


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## heatherk (Feb 24, 2011)

motherslittlehelper said:


> Oh, you smarty!! eace: But that is about right!
> 
> I asked my vet about it when my guys were small. I 'think' she said approximately double their 16 week weight. And that is pretty close to what my two ended up. Augie did gain another pound after his neuter at 16 months.


Yes, approximately is the closest you'll get I think (without knowing how big their parents were at that age vs. their full grown size). Puppies, just like children, go through growth spurts. I had a post on the forum here somewhere asking the same question when Cey was younger, maybe even 4 months. I can't remember exactly, but my impression now is that he was growing like a weed between 3-5 months, and I was worried that he was going to end up huge. But then he slowed down, and a few months ago weighed just over 11 lbs. (I think he's putting on his adult muscle mass finally now, I would guess that he will end up weighing between 12 and 13 lbs, so closer to his mother's weight than his father's). Anyway, it's fun to track them as they grow though!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

whimsy said:


> Never can really tell. Whimsy is bigger then her parents.


And Kodi is half again bigger than HIS parents!!!<g> Did I mention that I HATE that the emoticons are changing every day?!?!? :frusty:


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

krandall said:


> And Kodi is half again bigger than HIS parents!!!<g> Did I mention that I HATE that the emoticons are changing every day?!?!? :frusty:


Yes, what is going on with the emoticons???? Why is that being 'fixed'? It wasn't broke! Grrrr

Augie is larger than both his parents. Finn is larger than his dad, probably going to end up closer to his mom - a very solid feeling girl.


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

For another point of reference -- Benjamin's mom was about 10 lbs and his dad was about 13 lbs. He is now 10 1/2 months old, and as of yesterday he weighs 15.6 lbs -- and is still growing! I sometimes worry that maybe he is actually an Old English Sheepdog rather than a Havanese, and will end up weighing 100 lbs! ound: Of course I will love him to bits no matter what size he is, but it would be nice if I did not have to replace his soft sided carrying case. Come to think of it, we might be there already.


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## nanfis (Apr 11, 2009)

I have one that is ten pounds and one that is 19 pounds


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## nanfis (Apr 11, 2009)

Mike was supposed to be 10 but kept going and he is not heavy


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

Emmie is 13 months old and only weighs 8 lbs. Her dam weighs 10 lbs and her sire weighs 13 lbs.


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## nanfis (Apr 11, 2009)

I am moving from FL to CA. I need to fly my Havs there inside cabin but I don't know how to get Mikey in a bag since he's 20Ibs. Any ideas?


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## marlowe'sgirl (Jun 17, 2010)

nanfis said:


> I am moving from FL to CA. I need to fly my Havs there inside cabin but I don't know how to get Mikey in a bag since he's 20Ibs. Any ideas?


The weight limit is 25 lbs on most airlines. Can he comfortably lie down in the airline bag?


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## nanfis (Apr 11, 2009)

Not in a medium bag. He's a big boy ( not fat) just big


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## marlowe'sgirl (Jun 17, 2010)

nanfis said:


> Not in a medium bag. He's a big boy ( not fat) just big


I think I have the large Sherpa bag and my 17 lb Hav fits fine. If you pup can't fit though, I'd consider a road trip.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

my hav was very small. 3 lbs at 14 weeks ... her breeder knew she was going to be on the small end. I thought Tillie was done growing around a year or so, she was 8 1/2 lbs for well over a year... then all of a sudden she was 9 lbs!? huh? THEN last month she was weighed at a vet visit and she is 10.0 lbs!!? breed standard! wahooooo! She is almost 3 yrs old.  and I thought she'd be 8 lbs forever. lol


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## Sonic and Aries (Feb 15, 2012)

Yea, it definitely varies with this breed..

I agree with the double the pups weight at 16 weeks, both of my 'predictions' ended up pretty accurate using this method (assuming they are done growing now). Aries is currently 8.2 lbs at a year and a half and Sonic is 13.5 lbs at almost 2 years.

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## Odieo (Jan 1, 2013)

We had Odeo's booster shot appt today. 3 weeks ago ( feb 15) when I took him for first visit he weighed 5 lbs 6 oz today he was a whopping 8lbs2oz. He will be 3 months old tomorrow. His mom and dad are both 10 lbs. I can feel his ribs and he eats 1/2 cup if kibble twice a day. He does not get any treats-- none not even for training because he prefers praise more than treats. I don't care what size he ends up in but I just want to make sure he is healthy and getting enough to eat. Should I increase his kibble quantity now that he is 8 + lbs? In all the excitement at the vet I forgot to ask him about upping his kibble quantity.

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## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

Djangos mom was a peanut and his dad was pushing 16lbs. Django started out at 11 pounds, unfortunately with all the pred, he's 12.4 now.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Odieo said:


> We had Odeo's booster shot appt today. 3 weeks ago ( feb 15) when I took him for first visit he weighed 5 lbs 6 oz today he was a whopping 8lbs2oz. He will be 3 months old tomorrow. His mom and dad are both 10 lbs. I can feel his ribs and he eats 1/2 cup if kibble twice a day. He does not get any treats-- none not even for training because he prefers praise more than treats. I don't care what size he ends up in but I just want to make sure he is healthy and getting enough to eat. Should I increase his kibble quantity now that he is 8 + lbs? In all the excitement at the vet I forgot to ask him about upping his kibble quantity.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I would NOT increase his food unless you can feel his hip bones and his spine is pronounced. (that would be skinny) being able to feel ribs is fine. You can even feel ribs on a dog who is slightly overweight.

You are already feeding him a LOT for a Havanese puppy. Kodi, as a 16.5 lb adult gets 2 1/4c servings per day. When he was a puppy, get got 2 1/4c servings, but often skipped one.

Also, I STRONGLY urge you to encourage his enthusiasm for food training treats. They will be a huge help as you get into reinforcing more difficult behaviors. You may have to up the ante and use tiny, but high value treats like cheese and real meat rather than store-bought treats, depending on what you've tried so far. A dog that understands that a food reward means "Job well done!!!" is a much easier dog to train!


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## nanfis (Apr 11, 2009)

I have my new bag and Mikie fits. But doesn't want to go in. This will take some time

Mikie was 31/2 pounds at 7 weeks is now about 18 pounds He is a big boy but not at all chubby

Your Hav will definitely be on the larger side and I'm sure needs more food to keep growing and healthy


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## harley (Aug 1, 2012)

*how big is my havanese going to get???????*

In July 2012 I adopted a puppy. The breeder stated adult weight would be about 10-12lbs. Harley was dark brown in color-which is what I was looking for.Now 8 months later Harley is 21lbs. and off white in color. I was not informed that the color and size could/would be that far off.
For 12 years I had a terrier poodle that weighed 25lbs. I am 62 years and really want a small companion.
SO...I have been going back and forth with the breeder.
Do I have a stand? Am I justified in not feeling satisfied?????
How much information can a person expect from the breeder--before the transaction?


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## nanfis (Apr 11, 2009)

I am going to be 65 I wanted a smaller dog as well, but I received an angel who I wouldn't trade for anything. He is now 18 Ibs and the sweetest dog on earth. I also own Daisy who is 10 Ibs and Mikies best friend. They are the two most wonderful dogs your breeder won't do anything they come in varying sizes right now and the colors are known to change with age 

I hope your unhappiness does not mean you do not love Harley as much as humanly possible. He should be your companion with your love seeing no boundaries. Havs are so wonderful and I have the two best in the world. Harley shd mean that much to you

Researching before buying a breed is always a good idea

Just love Harley and forget the rest


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

harley said:


> In July 2012 I adopted a puppy. The breeder stated adult weight would be about 10-12lbs. Harley was dark brown in color-which is what I was looking for.Now 8 months later Harley is 21lbs. and off white in color. I was not informed that the color and size could/would be that far off.
> For 12 years I had a terrier poodle that weighed 25lbs. I am 62 years and really want a small companion.
> SO...I have been going back and forth with the breeder.
> Do I have a stand? Am I justified in not feeling satisfied?????
> How much information can a person expect from the breeder--before the transaction?


I thought Karen had responded to this already, maybe in another thread??
Havs CHANGE color. you can not 'blame' the breeder for this in any way. 
Here is my hav when she was 14 weeks and now ... it happens. I NEVER 'wanted' a white dog... but alas... I have one. and I wouldn't trade her for the world. ALTHOUGH if I ever get another one, I want a black and white... they don't seem to change color much compared to other colors...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

harley said:


> In July 2012 I adopted a puppy. The breeder stated adult weight would be about 10-12lbs. Harley was dark brown in color-which is what I was looking for.Now 8 months later Harley is 21lbs. and off white in color. I was not informed that the color and size could/would be that far off.
> For 12 years I had a terrier poodle that weighed 25lbs. I am 62 years and really want a small companion.
> SO...I have been going back and forth with the breeder.
> Do I have a stand? Am I justified in not feeling satisfied?????
> How much information can a person expect from the breeder--before the transaction?


There are no guarantees with dogs. The best a breeder can give you is a "best guess". Color means nothing, and SHOULD NOT be a reason for getting or not getting a dog, ESPECIALLY in Havanese. If you had done any reading about the breed ahead of time, you would have known that more change color than not.

As far as size is concerned, again, a breeder can only give you a "best guess" about adult size. You will have to look at your contract to see what your rights are. Most good breeders will take a dog back if you can't keep them. (in fact, most good breeders INSIST on the dog going back to them!) That does NOT mean that the breeder has any responsibility to refund your money just because the dog turns out to be larger than expected, however.

Is this such a big problem that you want to return an animal that you have bonded with over the past 6 months? What exactly are the issues? Maybe we can help you with them. Your dog is perfectly capable of walking on his own 4 legs... he does not need to be carried. So weight shouldn't be a big issue. Likewise, I'm SURE he can be taught to get himself in and out of the car. Many people who are older than you learn to manage dogs who are much larger than this. It's a matter of training the dog.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

nanfis said:


> I am going to be 65 I wanted a smaller dog as well, but I received an angel who I wouldn't trade for anything. He is now 18 Ibs and the sweetest dog on earth. I also own Daisy who is 10 Ibs and Mikies best friend. They are the two most wonderful dogs your breeder won't do anything they come in varying sizes right now and the colors are known to change with age
> 
> I hope your unhappiness does not mean you do not love Harley as much as humanly possible. He should be your companion with your love seeing no boundaries. Havs are so wonderful and I have the two best in the world. Harley shd mean that much to you
> 
> ...


:thumb: Great post!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TilliesMom said:


> I thought Karen had responded to this already, maybe in another thread??
> Havs CHANGE color. you can not 'blame' the breeder for this in any way.
> Here is my hav when she was 14 weeks and now ... it happens. I NEVER 'wanted' a white dog... but alas... I have one. and I wouldn't trade her for the world. ALTHOUGH if I ever get another one, I want a black and white... they don't seem to change color much compared to other colors...


UNLESS they carry the silver gene, Tammy, then all bets are off!!!  (or if they carry the Belton gene...:fear


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## harley (Aug 1, 2012)

Am feeling somewhat like I need to defend myself. I have had small dogs my entire life. I have a disability now that results in being home bound most of the time. For an entire year I have wanted and researched for a small lap dog. He is 26 inches long, my lap 12 inches wide.He is very high energy-compared to my other dogs. He really would thrive being around children or other dogs.I am not able to provide that for him.We do walk an hour a day.I guess only I know- why I feel- the way I do. Thanks you for your words.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

harley said:


> Am feeling somewhat like I need to defend myself. I have had small dogs my entire life. I have a disability now that results in being home bound most of the time. For an entire year I have wanted and researched for a small lap dog. He is 26 inches long, my lap 12 inches wide.He is very high energy-compared to my other dogs. He really would thrive being around children or other dogs.I am not able to provide that for him.We do walk an hour a day.I guess only I know- why I feel- the way I do. Thanks you for your words.


I guess the question is, what do YOU want to see happen? It's clear that you are disappointed, and I DO understand why you were hoping for a smaller dog. I just don't think the breeder has any legal responsibility here.

If you are simply looking to rehome this guy because you can't properly care for him with your current health problems, we can put you in touch with HRI. If you are looking to get your money back from the breeder, that is something that you would have to TRY to work out with them. But as I said, I don't think you have any legal standing to expect it.


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## marlowe'sgirl (Jun 17, 2010)

harley said:


> In July 2012 I adopted a puppy. The breeder stated adult weight would be about 10-12lbs. Harley was dark brown in color-which is what I was looking for.Now 8 months later Harley is 21lbs. and off white in color. I was not informed that the color and size could/would be that far off.
> For 12 years I had a terrier poodle that weighed 25lbs. I am 62 years and really want a small companion.
> SO...I have been going back and forth with the breeder.
> Do I have a stand? Am I justified in not feeling satisfied?????
> How much information can a person expect from the breeder--before the transaction?





harley said:


> Am feeling somewhat like I need to defend myself. I have had small dogs my entire life. I have a disability now that results in being home bound most of the time. For an entire year I have wanted and researched for a small lap dog. He is 26 inches long, my lap 12 inches wide.He is very high energy-compared to my other dogs. He really would thrive being around children or other dogs.I am not able to provide that for him.We do walk an hour a day.I guess only I know- why I feel- the way I do. Thanks you for your words.


Did you communicate your needs/wants with your breeder beforehand? It sounds like you're upset with his size, the color change, and his energy level. You can expect as much information as the questions you ask elicit. I had to fill out an puppy application that asked what my expectations and preferences were regarding things like personality/energy level.

Size: A reputable breeder can give you a ballpark estimate on your pup's size. The parents' size can give you a hint. I was warned my Hav was the biggest of his litter and was on track to be on the large size for the breed (9 lbs at 5 months and now he's almost 17 lbs at 3 yrs old). I wanted a bigger dog, so it was a perfect fit. There are no guarantees, but you can get an estimate. I am surprised your estimate was 10 lbs off. 21 lbs is really big for a Hav; I get comments on my 'huge' 17 lb Hav. Is yours a healthy weight for his size according to the vet?

Color Change: As others have stated, this change should not have been a surprise if you researched Havs, met your Havs mom, or asked the breeder. I was given a complete pedigree from my breeder with puppy and adult pics of many of his relatives. He's a B&W parti that held his color, but so did both of his parents who were also B&W partis.

Personality/Energy Level: A breeder can give you idea on your pup's personality. Havs can have quite a range from high energy mischievous imps to quiet lounging princes/princesses, as you can see from this forum. If you wanted a quiet lapdog versus a high energy good for younger family, that should have been communicated at the outset.

You can certainly feel disappointed. If you communicated your needs and wants with your breeder, then moreso. Tell us a bit more about your breeder. It is concerning that they were off 10 lbs on his not even adult weight and his energy level seems to be the opposite of what you were looking for--but he is still a puppy. If you made your needs clear, then I'm concerned the breeder wasn't the most reputable and you might have gotten a poor start in finding a perfect for you Hav. Have you looked at our "what to look for in a breeder" post? That said you already have your pup, so what are you looking for outcome wise from your breeder? Money back is highly unlikely as you really don't have any legal footing like others have stated. You can return the pup if you can't care for him - a reputable breeder should have a take back clause. If not, we can help you get in touch with HRI and he can be placed in a home that better suits his needs. If you just want help managing his high energy, we can help too.


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## windym300 (Nov 20, 2010)

harley said:


> Am feeling somewhat like I need to defend myself. I have had small dogs my entire life. I have a disability now that results in being home bound most of the time. For an entire year I have wanted and researched for a small lap dog. He is 26 inches long, my lap 12 inches wide.He is very high energy-compared to my other dogs. He really would thrive being around children or other dogs.I am not able to provide that for him.We do walk an hour a day.I guess only I know- why I feel- the way I do. Thanks you for your words.


Please don't feel bad! I know some people here come off being judgemental and don't really see other people's problems and situations.. I'm sure they don't mean to be and are really trying to help. I know sometimes it just puts you off.. A lot of us have done lots of research about this breed and were very careful about getting our dogs from a good breeder. Others of us didn't know how to or even that you should. Really your breeder should have matched you up with the pup you would have been happy with. In my experience breeders know when pups are going to be larger. They defiantly know if pups lighten in color. So if it is a problem with size for you then I'm sure you could find a great home for the dog that would be a better fit for both of you. A lot of good breeders have dogs just a couple yrs old that they want to retire from breeding that may be a better fit for you. Since you were basically asking if you have any legal liability .. Answer is probably no.. Sounds like you didn't use a reputable breeder and this is an example that we try to educate about.. Good luck..

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## Chica'sMom (Sep 5, 2012)

How could she not feel bad? There are a few EXTREMELY judgmental people on this forum. They have waaaaaay too much to say when they don't know the whole situation and they hurt people with their thoughtlessness.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Welcome. I am sorry you had such a bad experience. My Fred was so tiny when I got him. I thought he would be about 10 lbs. I wanted a smaller playmate because Bella was so tiny. I didn't want a puppy that was too rough with her. He is now 7 years old and 15lbs. He is much larger than expected, but I actually prefer his larger size now. He was so hyper as a puppy. Now my idea of hyper is probably not that hyer But he was a nut and would beat up Bella daily. I came very close to giving him back because he would play so hard with tiny 6.5 lb bella she would yipe 30 times a day! I stuck it out and he calmed down by age 1. He is now the most affectionate, lovable, calm, lazy dog. Since your pup is young, he might calm down too. I also found long walks to wear them out helps!! Good luck


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Ok, here is a video I took of fred this am. I wanted you to see how calm he was. I can't even believe I was so close to returning him on several occasions! He wouldn't even nap as a puppy! I was like, I thought puppies slept all day! He would run all over the place and jump and jump to get on the bed. He was really a handful. He has been this calm since age 1. It was like he became a different dog. So maybe your guy will mellow out. I am sorry about the size and color, but maybe if he calms down it will help.

Also, as a puppy he was not at all affectionate. he is now my snuggle bug


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## windym300 (Nov 20, 2010)

Chica'sMom said:


> How could she not feel bad? There are a few EXTREMELY judgmental people on this forum. They have waaaaaay too much to say when they don't know the whole situation and they hurt people with their thoughtlessness.


Lol.. You are right, I just didn't have the guts to say it that way. Glad you did. I could say more but just erased all of it and will leave it at that. I have been forum member for over couple yrs but just stopped being active for while. Recently since getting iPad and the app, it's easier to get to and has become routine of my day to look at posts. I'm starting to remember why I got aggravated and quit being active..lol.

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## harley (Aug 1, 2012)

I live in New Mexico.There are no breeders in NM or surrounding states that I could locate. So right or wrong I found Harley via PetFinder. He came from Little Rock.I thought I had done my research. Since getting Harley and watching him grow- I have done far more. Maybe some of you can relate-I lost my best friend of 12 years.I live a reclusive life-not by choice. I did stress the size of havanese was important. Harley was described to be "about 10-12 lbs" as an adult.That sounded like just what I was wanting.This is to be most likely my last dog.For sure I want Harley to be happy. So do I.
All said and done-I should have done more-I did not. So I just need to figure out where I go from here. Harley sure could thrive in a home with kids. I may look into that. I live in a small town which is close to the Mexican border. Chijuauas-Sorry don't have time right now for the correct spelling ---But they are the state dog in theory very popular
Am curious-anyone have a good definition of puppy mill? My breeder 'currently' is advertising 14 puppies of 9 breeds.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

harley said:


> I live in New Mexico.There are no breeders in NM or surrounding states that I could locate. So right or wrong I found Harley via PetFinder. He came from Little Rock.I thought I had done my research. Since getting Harley and watching him grow- I have done far more. Maybe some of you can relate-I lost my best friend of 12 years.I live a reclusive life-not by choice. I did stress the size of havanese was important. Harley was described to be "about 10-12 lbs" as an adult.That sounded like just what I was wanting.This is to be most likely my last dog.For sure I want Harley to be happy. So do I.
> All said and done-I should have done more-I did not. So I just need to figure out where I go from here. Harley sure could thrive in a home with kids. I may look into that. I live in a small town which is close to the Mexican border. Chijuauas-Sorry don't have time right now for the correct spelling ---But they are the state dog in theory very popular
> Am curious-anyone have a good definition of puppy mill? My breeder 'currently' is advertising 14 puppies of 9 breeds.


Sad, but that sounds like a puppy mill. They make me so angry. Anyway, I am sure you will make the right decision for Harley. If you decide to rehome him, Havanese Rescue is a great start. Good luck!


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## windym300 (Nov 20, 2010)

harley said:


> I live in New Mexico.There are no breeders in NM or surrounding states that I could locate. So right or wrong I found Harley via PetFinder. He came from Little Rock.I thought I had done my research. Since getting Harley and watching him grow- I have done far more. Maybe some of you can relate-I lost my best friend of 12 years.I live a reclusive life-not by choice. I did stress the size of havanese was important. Harley was described to be "about 10-12 lbs" as an adult.That sounded like just what I was wanting.This is to be most likely my last dog.For sure I want Harley to be happy. So do I.
> All said and done-I should have done more-I did not. So I just need to figure out where I go from here. Harley sure could thrive in a home with kids. I may look into that. I live in a small town which is close to the Mexican border. Chijuauas-Sorry don't have time right now for the correct spelling ---But they are the state dog in theory very popular
> Am curious-anyone have a good definition of puppy mill? My breeder 'currently' is advertising 14 puppies of 9 breeds.


Yes, very sorry you did get sucked in by, at least what I would call a puppy mill. To me that is a breeder that would sell on puppy finder. I do however believe you did all you knew how to do at the time! A lot of us have been there. I agree if you think Harley would be happier with another family then you should do what you can to find him one.

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## misstray (Feb 6, 2011)

I'm thinking what you need is a dog that has gotten past puppy-hood. Even mellow dogs have tons of energy as pups.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

windym300 said:


> Lol.. You are right, I just didn't have the guts to say it that way. Glad you did. I could say more but just erased all of it and will leave it at that. I have been forum member for over couple yrs but just stopped being active for while. Recently since getting iPad and the app, it's easier to get to and has become routine of my day to look at posts. I'm starting to remember why I got aggravated and quit being active..lol.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Over all, I think this is a really supportive group. There are almost never flame wars. But people are passionate about the breed, and passionate about their personal dogs, and sometimes that can come across a little strong.

In this case, though, I just can't figure out what the OP wants us to say. We can't tell her that, yes, she's right, go sue the breeder and everything will be alright. It's a tricky situation,and SHE has to figure out the end result she's looking for. "Wishing" that this dog were smaller, darker and had less energy (which may just be being a puppy) isn't going to change anything. And if the breeder is NOT a good breeder, and SHOULD have better informed her, there is even less chance that the breeder will give her any satisfaction.

I feel for her, I really do. But realistically, what are people SUPPOSED to say to her?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

harley said:


> I live in New Mexico.There are no breeders in NM or surrounding states that I could locate. So right or wrong I found Harley via PetFinder. He came from Little Rock.I thought I had done my research. Since getting Harley and watching him grow- I have done far more. Maybe some of you can relate-I lost my best friend of 12 years.I live a reclusive life-not by choice. I did stress the size of havanese was important. Harley was described to be "about 10-12 lbs" as an adult.That sounded like just what I was wanting.This is to be most likely my last dog.For sure I want Harley to be happy. So do I.
> All said and done-I should have done more-I did not. So I just need to figure out where I go from here. Harley sure could thrive in a home with kids. I may look into that. I live in a small town which is close to the Mexican border. Chijuauas-Sorry don't have time right now for the correct spelling ---But they are the state dog in theory very popular
> Am curious-anyone have a good definition of puppy mill? My breeder 'currently' is advertising 14 puppies of 9 breeds.


Any "breeder" who has 9 breeds is definitely a puppy mill. Good breeders have all they can do to focus on one breed (or at most, a couple). Also, good breeders just plain don't advertise on puppyfinder.com (I assume that that's what you mean, because petfinder is for rescues, not purchasing puppies)

There is absolutely NO shame in needing to rehome Harley if he is the wrong dog for you. In the end, you will both be happier, and I am sure you will find a good home for him! If you need help, please call HRI... there are many people looking to adopt Havanese puppies, and if you could keep him until a great permanent home could be found for him, so much the better!!!

There are CERTAINLY Havanese that stay in the size range you want... many more are that size than your "giant economy sized" Harley! I would definitely not give up on the breed.

Chihuahuas can be nice dogs too, but they can be even harder to potty train, and they tend to also be very willful and territorial. You might find that they are a bit of a handful for you, as they need a pretty firm (but gentle!) hand in terms of training. Havanese in general, definitely have a "softer" temperament. If you decide to go with a Havanese again, make SURE you are dealing with a reputable breeder, and really discuss your needs with them. I think someone else already mentioned the possibility of a young adult dog. Whether you end up with a Havanese or a Chihuahua, this might be the very best option for you. That way you would know exactly what you were getting in terms of size, color and temperament. (though with Havanese, even a young adult dog can change color over time!!!)


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

krandall said:


> Over all, I think this is a really supportive group. There are almost never flame wars. But people are passionate about the breed, and passionate about their personal dogs, and sometimes that can come across a little strong.
> 
> In this case, though, I just can't figure out what the OP wants us to say. We can't tell her that, yes, she's right, go sue the breeder and everything will be alright. It's a tricky situation,and SHE has to figure out the end result she's looking for. "Wishing" that this dog were smaller, darker and had less energy (which may just be being a puppy) isn't going to change anything. And if the breeder is NOT a good breeder, and SHOULD have better informed her, there is even less chance that the breeder will give her any satisfaction.
> 
> I feel for her, I really do. But realistically, what are people SUPPOSED to say to her?


Krandall - you may be trying to be supportive but when I read your post, the use of capital letters on some of the words gives a less than positive impression. For example - saying "SHE has to figure out the end result she's looking for" just doesn't read well. I'm not sure the tone you're trying to convey by capitalizing "SHE." Usually when people use capital letters it sends a more emotional message and is often used as a way to yell at someone online. That may be where the miscommunication is occurring, in my humble opinion.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I agree. Some of us, including me, can come off sounding harsh. I think we have to remember, writing doesn't show emotion, so can be misread. 

I can think of a thread about someone giving back their puppy to the breeder. This is a subject that I have a hard time with. I was a bit direct but I told the woman I was trying to understand her situation without judging her. I said, I never would agree with it, but I understood her situation. I think that was ok....?


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

Yeah, I think that was OK, Linda, I did the same thing on that thread, and it was obviously a very sensitive situation. I've been thinking that there seem to be 2 main kinds of threads on here. One consists of cute puppy pics and people commenting on how cute they are. Those threads are fun and safe. The other category involves people having a problem or asking a question. It can be difficult to strike the right tone in responding, particularly when the person asking is new and/or inexperienced, and doing things that seem obviously misguided by those who are more experienced. The challenge is to provide good information without implying that the asker is bad or stupid. I myself have at times hesitated to raise certain issues on here, out of fear of being judged or misunderstood. I think there is an unspoken hierarchy where the opinions of some are assumed to be "correct", and the views of others as not having much weight. I think we should take it as a given that anyone who cares about their dog enough to read these forums and post questions and problems is inherently motivated to do right by their dog. For the most part I think people understand that, and respond to posts in a caring and respectful manner. I am extremely grateful to people with vastly more experience than I have, who have helped me get through my puppy's first year, and I am also grateful to other newbies whose experiences have paralleled mine. It's all a matter of degree, though, and as I approach my puppy's 1st birthday, realizing all I have read and studied and learned through experience, I do not feel quite so new. I have read and thought and learned enough to know that there can be room for differing opinions on some topics, and that ultimately I have to go by my own judgement about what is best for me and my dog. Also... accusing other people of being judgemental and insensitive itself sounds judgemental and insensitive, and perhaps a bit self-righteous, to me. What a hall of mirrors! So... I think we should all take a deep breath, be grateful that people take the time to share their knowledge and experience, and assume that everyone means well. And also to try to be aware of the tone of our posts before hitting the "reply" button. That's my take on it!


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Well said. I know before I found the forum I didn't even know what a puppymill was! Bella was my first dog and as much as I thought I was doing my research, I bought Bella from a broker! I had no idea until I started doing my detective work. Bella's BREEDER/ BROKER lived in a puppymill state. She really did care for the dogs. She felt she was rescuing them and finding them good homes by saying she bred them and selling them for full price! I will say that when I found out Bella had to have surgery, the lady gave me back all the money I paid for Bella to put for the surgery. So I have to say, she wasn't all that bad.


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## Odieo (Jan 1, 2013)

Emichel Amen!! So true! My policy is take it if you like it and be grateful that someone took time to respond. And it applies the other way too, if I don't like what someone is posting I stop myself from responding to save everyones day; Not just on this forum, but on several other forums that I'm on for various issues including the ones for my special needs child. And believe me, in that arena emotions run pretty high!!

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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

I too have learned so much since I brought Emmie home and wish I had known about this forum beforehand. There are definitely things I would have done differently if I had asked questions and read posts at the very beginning of our relationship. I've made numerous mistakes but people on this forum have helped me correct a bunch of them. Huge *thank you* to all the experienced Hav owners & breeders that have shared their knowledge with me, et al.  I'm having a lot of fun with my puppy though she's been trying my patience with her bratty/barky behavior. I'm not sure if this is because she's 13 months old and has always been confident & bossy, but I'm trying to learn more to improve her manners. It all starts with me - I need to manage her well, be consistent, and not reward bad behavior (inadvertently).


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## andra (Aug 23, 2010)

I know when I first came to the forum, my introduction was complicated, painful and I dont really want to recount it now  I had a lot to learn (as a new dog owner), lots I wanted to share and I really needed 'a safe place'. I was very open about the things I did right and the things I did wrong and now that I am 'in the know', it is my main objective to be the best furbaby momma on the planet 

I have learned a lot here, mainly by lurking. I have gotten a lot of support, both directly and indirectly from members and it has been appreciated. I have also felt attacked at times, both directly and indirectly, which I did not appreciate at the time. And, since I am a sensitive person by nature, it really hurt--probably more than it should have. A few other things happened that I will not share openly about but I have spoken privately with one of the moderators, who was incredibly supportive and inclusive and has made me feel welcomed.

Since the havanese world was really my first toe in the internet discussion board world, there has been a learning curve that has had its ups and downs. I now try to give everybody the benefit of the doubt, because I know how things can come across in a post and I would want the same courtesy. If I am unclear about something or somebody's responses, I will ask for clarification. I try to not be as sensitive. If something is coming across as harsh or confusing, I will speak up. I always keep the newcomers in mind even if they are only lurking and not joining.

Anyway, back to the issue at hand  I am wondering if you can clarify what the concern is regarding your pup's size? Is it the weight on your legs/lap or something else? I know that my mom is still kindof dog shy--she has made great strides, mind you, but still gets a bit scared when Dionna tries to go in her lap and give her kisses galore. Dionna, being smart, now knows that my mom is ok with Dionna sitting or laying next to my mom's lap and resting her head in her lap and/or laying next to my mom and that allows my mom the chance to pet her. It is possible that, once the puppy energy settles down, that your pup can learn not to crush your lap if that is the issue. Anyway, I am hoping to hear more about your concerns so we can possibly either brain storm with you and/or offer more specific support to you as you come up with your next steps.


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## dreamsie (Feb 13, 2013)

My breeder advertised her dogs run small ~10lbs max. Teemo was 5lbs 4 weeks ago and now he's 10lbs!!! He's only about 4 months old. I'm not sure if it's normal or am I overfeeding him. >.>


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

MarinaGirl said:


> Krandall - you may be trying to be supportive but when I read your post, the use of capital letters on some of the words gives a less than positive impression. For example - saying "SHE has to figure out the end result she's looking for" just doesn't read well. I'm not sure the tone you're trying to convey by capitalizing "SHE." Usually when people use capital letters it sends a more emotional message and is often used as a way to yell at someone online. That may be where the miscommunication is occurring, in my humble opinion.


"SHE" in that context, (emphasis, not "shouting" meant that we (do you like that better?) can't know what she wants to happen. (though she has since explained more) As I said in another post, I don't see how commiserating with her and telling her that the breeder should have told her that the dog might get bigger, be a rambunctious puppy and probably lighten in color helps her in any way.

I've had the feeling, from her last few posts, that the OP has a better idea what her options are (and are not) at this point and is ready to make some good, knowledge-based decisions. That's the kind of help and support that I like to give, and I like to see people receive from others.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

MarinaGirl said:


> I'm having a lot of fun with my puppy though she's been trying my patience with her bratty/barky behavior. I'm not sure if this is because she's 13 months old and has always been confident & bossy, but I'm trying to learn more to improve her manners. It all starts with me - I need to manage her well, be consistent, and not reward bad behavior (inadvertently).


A lot of that is just being an adolescent. Believe me, I know how trying it can be... Kodi was a TERRIBLE demand barker at that age. But with patience and consistence, they DO grow out of it eventually. By two, Kodi was MUCH better. By 3 he did almost no demand barking.

Remember that those demand barkers are the ones who are most interested in a job. Put them to work, and turn that drive into fun for both of you!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Nice post, Andra!



andra said:


> I know when I first came to the forum, my introduction was complicated, painful and I dont really want to recount it now  I had a lot to learn (as a new dog owner), lots I wanted to share and I really needed 'a safe place'. I was very open about the things I did right and the things I did wrong and now that I am 'in the know', it is my main objective to be the best furbaby momma on the planet
> 
> I have learned a lot here, mainly by lurking. I have gotten a lot of support, both directly and indirectly from members and it has been appreciated. I have also felt attacked at times, both directly and indirectly, which I did not appreciate at the time. And, since I am a sensitive person by nature, it really hurt--probably more than it should have. A few other things happened that I will not share openly about but I have spoken privately with one of the moderators, who was incredibly supportive and inclusive and has made me feel welcomed.
> 
> ...


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## harley (Aug 1, 2012)

Me again-I who felt like I needed to defend myself.A little background if that is ok. A year ago I met a very small puppy (I thought).Instantly I knew she-or rather one of her relatives- and I could be a match in heaven. Her name is Penelope, she is a solid black hav- 4 yrs old-weighs 8lbs.I had never heard of the havanese breed. I came home and immediately googled.
When I started shopping- I did so on puppyfinder because there are no breeders within 500 miles from where I live. Breeders stated adult weight ranging from 10-12lbs.
I believed what I read. In retrospect I understand that this is not true. Ya know what they say about hindsight.I have written about Harley weighing 21lbs. That he is insistent on not only barking but howling. He is not affectionate but would prefer playing rough as much as possible.I have had 5 other dogs in my life so this is not my first experience.
Today I communicated with the breeder. She said that if I wanted a closer guarantee regarding 10-12lb size that a yorkshire terrier or toy poodle would be a better choice.I have not -as of yet -switched breeds in my thinking. I still have this love for what I saw in Penelope's eyes.I think that you would agree that significant relations-- have chemistry.
I am not really sure about my next step. 
I would like to know WHERE you all have adopted you pups? Local to where you live?As I said I live in the middle of nowhere. I love it but not much shopping in the forest.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I think the havanese is exactly what you are looking for. Your boy is unfortunately not a good representation of the breed. I have met a lot of Havs and the majority are not hyper, are 8-15 lbs and are very affectionate and loving. If you decide to look for another Hav, be specific on temperament. A good breeder will match the pup to your lifestyle. With my guys I was very specific in what I was looking for. I always asked for the most easy going pup in the liter. I knew Fred was not the most easy going but I still got him. He turned out to be such a love but was a monster for the first year! Don't limit your search area. This pup will be with you for about 15 years so its worth finding an ethical breeder even if u have to jump on a plane.
You are not alone. A busy, active havanese would not fit into my life either. I need calmness around me and a high energy dog would clash.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

I feel for you, I too have back issues and searched for over a year until I found the RIGHT breeder and knew in my heart this was the right place. We drove 10 hrs one way (from California almost up to Washington) with 2 young kids just to meet the breeder and her pups. We were very blessed that she had 2 pups available at the time and one of them was VERY obviously ours. We thought she would always be very small (although not the reason we brought her home) but has just recently at 2 1/2 yrs old hit the 10 lb mark. I completely understand needing a lighter pup for back issues... although doing the research before hand saves everyone a lot of heart break. Good luck with what ever you choose.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

My requirements were a little different from your, in that I wanted a dog for performance sports and was not concerned about size. But I couldn't find what I was looking for locally and ended up flying from MA to NC to get Kodi... And haven't regretted it for a mment!

While few reputable breeders will ship a puppy, if you are unable to fly to pick your puppy up, some breeders will personally fly with the puppy in cabin (or have someone else they trust hand carry the puppy) to an airport near you. You would, of course, have to pay extra for this service, but it's an option.

Remember that if you decide to trade your current guy in for another dog from the same source, Havanese or not, you are STILL dealing with a puppy mill and taking big chances on the health and temperament of the puppy.


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## windym300 (Nov 20, 2010)

harley said:


> Me again-I who felt like I needed to defend myself.A little background if that is ok. A year ago I met a very small puppy (I thought).Instantly I knew she-or rather one of her relatives- and I could be a match in heaven. Her name is Penelope, she is a solid black hav- 4 yrs old-weighs 8lbs.I had never heard of the havanese breed. I came home and immediately googled.
> When I started shopping- I did so on puppyfinder because there are no breeders within 500 miles from where I live. Breeders stated adult weight ranging from 10-12lbs.
> I believed what I read. In retrospect I understand that this is not true. Ya know what they say about hindsight.I have written about Harley weighing 21lbs. That he is insistent on not only barking but howling. He is not affectionate but would prefer playing rough as much as possible.I have had 5 other dogs in my life so this is not my first experience.
> Today I communicated with the breeder. She said that if I wanted a closer guarantee regarding 10-12lb size that a yorkshire terrier or toy poodle would be a better choice.I have not -as of yet -switched breeds in my thinking. I still have this love for what I saw in Penelope's eyes.I think that you would agree that significant relations-- have chemistry.
> ...


Sorry but that "Me Again" had me really rolling laughing.. I don't think think you knew what you started..lol..I'm not going to offer any more advice on your pup because I think everyone else has it pretty well covered. I just wanted to add that I have learned a lot of lessons in my middle age about other people also in same age range or older lately. That lesson has been that people are just the way they are! I don't think it seems to matter what anyone thinks about them.. Because the way they think is the just the way it is.. I get it! People like this will never understand because they just don't think the same way. I'm not saying it is right or wrong. It just IS! See when you capitalize things it does make it more like yelling. Hmm, something to think about. I disagree a little bit with someone saying we can come off not showing emotion with posts. I'm not quite sure what was said.. I think I can pretty much see personalities through the posts on here.. I have met a couple people recently from Havanese chat and they were totally what I thought they would be like. I will say most of this has nothing to do with anyone on this forum.. I just saw a little resemblance to same energies.. Anyway, off my soapbox now..Carry on..

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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

windym300 said:


> Sorry but that "Me Again" had me really rolling laughing.. I don't think think you knew what you started..lol..I'm not going to offer any more advice on your pup because I think everyone else has it pretty well covered. I just wanted to add that I have learned a lot of lessons in my middle age about other people also in same age range or older lately. That lesson has been that people are just the way they are! I don't think it seems to matter what anyone thinks about them.. Because the way they think is the just the way it is.. I get it! People like this will never understand because they just don't think the same way. I'm not saying it is right or wrong. It just IS! See when you capitalize things it does make it more like yelling. Hmm, something to think about. I disagree a little bit with someone saying we can come off not showing emotion with posts. I'm not quite sure what was said.. I think I can pretty much see personalities through the posts on here.. I have met a couple people recently from Havanese chat and they were totally what I thought they would be like. I will say most of this has nothing to do with anyone on this forum.. I just saw a little resemblance to same energies.. Anyway, off my soapbox now..Carry on..
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


lol, that is how I am too, I consider myself a very good judge of character and somehow am able to "see" people and who I know I would have a real friendship with even on the forums... kinda crazy. my gut has never steered me wrong!


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## harley (Aug 1, 2012)

It's becoming clearer that I am going through Hav.boot-camp.And I feel I am up for the challenge.
Re: Harley-I have decided not to deal with the breeder any longer.A combination of my gut feeling about her operation.Paying more money.And still not knowing what I am getting.I really care about Harley. Recognizing that he just 'wants to run and have fun' recognizing I am more kicked back and have medical issues.. I am going to find him a loving home. A home with kids so that he can be who he is.I am going to contact the local groomers,churches etc. As for me I am going to continue my research,continue being part of the forum.I will be going to spend time with my family in Wisc this summer.My Hope is that by the time I return I will have my very own little Penelope.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

harley said:


> It's becoming clearer that I am going through Hav.boot-camp.And I feel I am up for the challenge.
> Re: Harley-I have decided not to deal with the breeder any longer.A combination of my gut feeling about her operation.Paying more money.And still not knowing what I am getting.I really care about Harley. Recognizing that he just 'wants to run and have fun' recognizing I am more kicked back and have medical issues.. I am going to find him a loving home. A home with kids so that he can be who he is.I am going to contact the local groomers,churches etc. As for me I am going to continue my research,continue being part of the forum.I will be going to spend time with my family in Wisc this summer.My Hope is that by the time I return I will have my very own little Penelope.


Sounds like an awesome plan!!! Don't forget about the option of HRI to help you find a perfect forever home for Harley too!


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## sandypaws (Aug 8, 2012)

*How big my Havanese going to get*



harley said:


> It's becoming clearer that I am going through Hav.boot-camp.And I feel I am up for the challenge.
> Re: Harley-I have decided not to deal with the breeder any longer.A combination of my gut feeling about her operation.Paying more money.And still not knowing what I am getting.I really care about Harley. Recognizing that he just 'wants to run and have fun' recognizing I am more kicked back and have medical issues.. I am going to find him a loving home. A home with kids so that he can be who he is.I am going to contact the local groomers,churches etc. As for me I am going to continue my research,continue being part of the forum.I will be going to spend time with my family in Wisc this summer.My Hope is that by the time I return I will have my very own little Penelope.


I've been reading your posts with interest, but have not weighed in with any advice as I knew that you had to do what felt right to you. I am glad that you have made a decision. It seems like the right one, both for you and Harley. You both deserve to be happy and I think giving him the chance to be as energetic as puppies are and you a chance to have the small dog that you thought you were getting and need, due to your condition is a good thing. Hope you find peace now that your mind is made up.


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## Becky Chittenden (Feb 4, 2009)

If you place your dog and decide to look for another Havanese, I know several reputable breeders in AL and you could pm me. Another option, go to the Southern Magnolia Havanese site. I'm not a member, but they do include me all the time. A great welcoming group of people. For reasons I'm not going in to, and it doesn't have anything to do with this club or it's members, I've, for now, chosen not to join; however, don't rule out the possibility that I might in the future. I did join HCA


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