# Do all chocolate havs change their colors?



## dotndani

I was just wondering if anyone here had a chocolate or ever has seen an adult chocolate who has stayed brown.The reason I ask is that Duncan's face looks like it'g getting lighter.Can it just be from the sun or is it natural.I guess it really doesn't matter what color he ends up being since I love him to death already but I was just curious. 
Dot


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## Havtahava

It varies. A lot of the chocolates that we see on the West Coast fade out. Some fade to the point of being almost cream. There is a well-known breeder (of course, her name is escaping me right now) who has been breeding chocolates for years and their color holds for the most part. 

In short, some do and some don't. 

Do you know much about Duncan's family? Are there other chocolates that are older? Any that are full relation (same father, same mother) that are older? That might be a better clue as to how Duncan may turn out.


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## DAJsMom

I saw some of Dusty's puppy photos recently and her chocolate was as dark as Duncan at first. She has lightened a lot and is still changing. However, the owner of her littermate has sent me some photos of Dusty's brother. He is black instead of chocolate, with the same markings as Dusty, and he has silvered also. They look very similar, except one is chocolate and the other is black/silver. I've been enjoying all the variations. We had been hoping for a sable before we came across Dusty, so I think we've just about got it! At least the color changing part! She's just gone from dark chocolate, to milk chocolate, or mocha, or latte...or from mud to Dusty!


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## Havtahava

Dusty's Mom, is that Angelito that you are talking about? (I got to see him again last weekend. That boy is so sweet. We need to get his "mama" here.)


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## DAJsMom

It is Angelito! I'm jealous of you for getting hang out with him. I'd like to meet him too, but I do have Dusty and she's a doll too! Angelito's mom would be good here.


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## Beamer

*Choco havs*

Question..

Chocolate Havs are 'chocolate' soley based on the pigment of the eyes and nose, right? So the fur color can be any color, does not have to be brown, right? My Mango has the brown pigment, but is obviously mostly white/cream from birth.

My understanding correct?:couch2:


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## Havtahava

Yes, Ryan. "Chocolate" soley refers to pigment of the nose, eyerims and lips.


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## DAJsMom

Dot, there are photos on the "colors of the rainbow" site that show chocolate havs that have held their color.

http://www.mts.net/~mckay55/rainbow.html


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## TnTWalter

*I've also read that Havana Browns although not 'chocolates' because*

their noses are black not liver; start black but end up chocolate because they're actually a brindle [brown black & red].

Thought that was interesting.

Duncan will be adorable no matter what color he ends up.

I've read that he can also go all cream and then go back to chocolate too. Isn't that right?

Trish


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## Greg

TnTWalter said:


> their noses are black not liver; start black but end up chocolate because they're actually a brindle [brown black & red].
> 
> Thought that was interesting.
> 
> Duncan will be adorable no matter what color he ends up.
> 
> I've read that he can also go all cream and then go back to chocolate too. Isn't that right?
> 
> Trish


Havana Brown isn't really a color.  I guess I should say "technically speaking." In Cuba there are no Chocolate Havs. None. There is one person whose job (government job) to visit each litter and individually inspect each litter. She does not register any dogs with brown pigment as a Havanese.

What they have are black brindles with black pigment. The black brindle can look brown....but with black pigment. I think I've even heard Cubans refer to the color as Tobacco or something like that.


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## TnTWalter

*Um, but in America there is Havana Brown right?*

American havanese are much different than cuban havanese were I thought??

Isn't havana brown black brindle which has #279?

Am I missing something? We're not talking about cuban havanese, but AKC havanese, right?

Thanks.

That's an interesting tidbit though.


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## Greg

There were two points I made. There is no registration for Havana brown. You can register the dog as Black Brindle, but Havana brown is more of an urban legend. Or maybe just slang. 

The other point was Chocolate is a new color and more specifically American in nature (although the FCI now recognizes). The logical progression of the origins of that color is it came about when a havanese was bred to something other than a Havanese. Rags Girl was the first chocolate "havanese" but we don't really have absolute proof she was a Havanese. However, she's in the stud book so it really matter.


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## Julie

I have a calender with a "tobacco" havanese.In the photo,it has very light pigment (almost pinkish)on the eyerims and nose.To be honest......it's ugly.At least in my world!:biggrin1:


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## DAJsMom

Dusty's breeder told me one of the reasons she decided not to keep her was that she didn't want to breed chocolates. I've gathered that there is a bit of controversy regarding chocolate as a legitimate color. Personally, I really like all the color variety in this breed and I'd hate to see that disappear. And now that we have a chocolate, I'm particularly partial to it!


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## Doggie Nut

I personally LOVE the chocolates!! Kimberly if you don't mind could you pm me the name of that breeder of chocolates.....if you can think of the name! See MHS is non-curable.....with 3 dogs I shouldn't even be THINKING about another!:lalala:


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## Julie

I too think that the variety in the havs coloring is cool!
The way they change is even more fun!:becky:

Dusty is a pretty girl......she is alot different then most of them you see in print.I think I'd be partial to her too!:biggrin1:


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## TnTWalter

*Oh I see...wow...*

I didn't know that. So perhaps there was a poodle mixed in along the way is that the thinking? Interesting. Maybe that is the wavy hair often seen as well...

Thanks for clarifying. I thought havana brown and black brindle were interchangable but havana brown is 'slang'.

Thank you very much.

Trish


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## Julie

Well too wavy of hair is considered undesirable in the show world I guess.The proper coat is to be straight with a little wave (like zig zag)at the ends.:biggrin1:


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## Julie

Oh I thought I would pass this along........I read this yesterday

The chocolates I read must have at least 1" of brown(chocolate)fur on them to be in the show ring.No other hav except the chocolate can have colored eyes(blue/green)and no other hav may have any pigment other then black,except the chocolate.For eye rims,noses,etc.


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## susaneckert

so the blue and the green is allowed in the choc. HMMM I didnt know that I thought to AKC stanards no color eyes where allowed


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## Havtahava

The standard actually says "dark eyes are preferred".


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## susaneckert

I thought that dark eyes but for some strange reason I thought it was just that the color eyes where not good.


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## Julie

The expression is soft and intelligent, mischievous rather than cute. The eyes are dark brown, large, almond-shaped, and set rather widely apart. Dark eyes are preferred irrespective of coat color, although the chocolate colored dog may have somewhat lighter eyes. The pigment on the eyerims is complete, solid black for all colors except for the chocolate dog which has complete solid, dark chocolate pigment. No other dilution of pigment is acceptable. Ears are of medium length; the leather, when extended, reaches halfway to the nose.

This is from the AKC website.I thought this is what I said....the only colored eyes are allowed in chocolates(not preferred,just allowed).Sorry if I didn't state it clearer........


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## Havtahava

Julie, yes, that is what the standard says, and I don't think we should be breeding dogs with light eyes (which is why that cute Bvlgari of mine is now Christy's Rufus to be a treasured member of her family), but it isn't a disqualification. Someone could still show and breed a Hav with light eyes.


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## Julie

Kimberly,
Rufus is a cute guy non-the-less!:biggrin1: I saw a chocolate that had green eyes.I thought it was really neat and unusual...I like the dark eyes myself,and dark pigment.....though I have never seen a chocolate with the dark pigment.I see breeders really think they have something special with the chocolates(price wise).I don't understand the "jumping on a chocolate wagon"but I don't have to either!:tape: Why are these considered "rare" and demand a higher price tag,if in Cuba,according to Greg,they don't even register them?To each his own...I don't mean anything bad here....I'm just trying to understand it!:ear:


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## DAJsMom

I have seen chocolates advertised as rare and for a higher price also. We didn't pay a premium for Dusty, just the breeder's standard price. Dusty has hazel eyes. I think there's a good shot of her eyes in the gallery. If not, I'll find the picture and post it.


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## Julie

I think Dusty is THEE prettiest chocolate I have ever seen!SERIOUSLY!I have seen alot of different ones in pictures,websites etc.but none have ever looked like your Dusty!I think it is the combination of the white perhaps,or something,I'm just not sure......maybe it is in her eyes,and pigmentationAnyway....she is a very pretty girl!:kiss: :hug:


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## Havtahava

Dusty is one of the prettiest chocolates I've seen too.

Julie, you said "I like the dark eyes myself,and dark pigment.....though I have never seen a chocolate with the dark pigment." Forgive me for sounding like a broken record, but the term "chocolate" *only refers to pigment, so if you mean black (when you say dark) for pigment, it is technically not a chocolate. If I misunderstood, please forgive me.*


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## DAJsMom

You're all so nice! We joke that when Dusty is lying down with her head down, her markings make her look like a grub! We think she's gorgeous though, even though we are very prejudiced at this point! 

The hazel eyes give her a very human expression.


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## Julie

Well,
I guess I'm not sure......or not saying it right.I haven't seen a brown havanese with dark eyes,black nose,black eye rims etc.That's what I mean.Have you ever saw one?


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## Havtahava

OK, I understand what you are saying, Julie. You're talking about coat color and calling it "chocolate", but the actual term has nothing to do with coat, so that is where I wasn't sure what you meant. I get it now. And yes, I've seen several brown dogs with true/full pigment (black).

Like a grub???? LOL!!! Poor Dusty. I'm glad you find her to be a gorgeous grub! I'm going to be chuckling all night thinking of that description.


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## DAJsMom

I'll try and find a "grub" photo, or take one so you can see what I mean. It's when she's lying down and you look at her from above...

She's a cute grub though!


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## Julie

Kimberly,:biggrin1: 
I have a couple questions I hope you can answer for me...
If a dog had black/dark pigment on the nose/eyes etc. but had brown fur,would it be a chocolate or not?
If a dog had the light pigment on the nose/eyerims etc.but had no brown fur,I read it couldn't be shown.......it would have to have at least 1"of brown fur.......is this true?Ryan is getting a new puppy that looks just like Gucci,and others,but he thought it could be a chocolate.......how could it if it didn't have brown fur...at least 1"?
Thanks:biggrin1:


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## Havtahava

Julie, here you go: 

*Q: If a dog had black/dark pigment on the nose/eyes etc. but had brown fur,would it be a chocolate or not?*

*A: No. 
Chocolate only refers to brown pigment. If a dog has black pigment it is not a chocolate no matter what the coat color is.*

*Q: If a dog had the light pigment on the nose/eyerims etc.but had no brown fur,I read it couldn't be shown.......it would have to have at least 1"of brown fur.......is this true?* Ryan is getting a new puppy that looks just like Gucci,and others,but he thought it could be a chocolate.......how could it if it didn't have brown fur...at least 1"?

*A: No, according to the AKC standard, it isn't true. 
Any color of coat can be shown. The full standard is available here: The Havanese Standard *

Here are the two sections from the standard that apply to your questions.
*Head*:
The pigment on the eyerims is complete, solid black for all colors except for the chocolate dog which has complete solid, dark chocolate brown pigment No other dilution of pigment is acceptable.​
*Color*:
All colors are acceptable, singly or in any combination. No preference is given to one color over another. The skin may be freckled or parti-colored.​


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## Julie

You know,this has nothing to do with me at all.....but I think it is a shame all the mis-information out there.I read on dogbreedinfo.com/havanesephotos9.htm this 1"stuff and there are several pictures of chocolates there.I could not paste it,or I would have...and I don't know how to send you the link,but it says that there.It also is on the havanese main page at dogbreedinfo.com and when I searched for chocolate havanese,another site that came up was cornerstone kennels.They have alot of information there but it is all correct/incorrect ---who knows?As I read to the bottom,it goes more into the "real chocolate"etc.and havana brown etc.If I had a chocolate,I wouldn't know if I had one or not!How sad that the info isn't required to be accurate.


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## Julie

Kimberly,
One more question-------:sorry: 
If you had a dog with the light pigment(known as chocolate)on the eyerims/nose etc.but it had no chocolate/brown fur of any kind---how could you tell it was a chocolate,and not just a poor example of a regular havanese?

lets say: sable with brown pigment
sable with black pigment

or can their not be a poor quality with the wrong pigment?

:sorry: I'm not trying to drive you nuts,or give you story problems,like a teacher in school.......I'm just really curious how it is.:biggrin1:


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## Beamer

*choco's*

I'm sure the confusion with the chocolate dogs Vs. brown fur is a big bonus to the shady breeders... Since chocolate pigmented Havs usually go for more $$$, a shifty breeder could easily fool a non suspecting buyer into buying the 'rare' chocolate dog which only has brown fur and not the brown pigment...


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## Havtahava

LOL Julie! I'm glad you're not trying to drive me nuts!! :biggrin1: (Don't apologize. I understand.)

The *ONLY* thing that makes a dog a chocolate is the brown pigment. It does not matter what color his hair is. If you want to know if a dog is a chocolate, look at his nose (and eye rims and lips). That's it.

Here is the simple breakdown:
Black pigment - a regular Havanese (no matter what color hair)
Brown pigment - a chocolate Havanese
Light grey, light brown or no pigment - a dog with poor pigment (since no other dilution is allowed)​
*Ignore the hair color.* It doesn't matter in this topic. Does that help?


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## Beamer

Ok, now I'm going to ask a question.. hahaha...

You have also included brown pigment in your dog with poor pigment, and brown pigment is a chocolate.

So, are you saying that a dog with light grey, *brown *or no pigment is a dog with poor pugment?

I can only imagine how confused Julie is rightnow.. lol


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## Havtahava

I'll go edit my summary. That last option should say "light color (grey or light brown)"

Dark brown is the only acceptable color for a real chocolate. 
Light brown would be a sign of poor pigment.


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## Julie

:brick: well now that's as clear as a :brick:
LOL!:doh:
Ryan.......you're right....... :doh:

No seriously,it makes sense to me now......everyone is really off...with the chocolate thing!
In the future....no chocolate shall be chocolate unless I taste it and it's good!:becky:


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## Laurief

Not to sound dumb, but I am sure I will - what is the benfit of knowing "for sure" if it is a chocolate or not?? You can call my guys anything you want, it makes no difference to me. Does this matter if you are showing? Or when you register them?? Or something a breeder would charge more for just because they are different? Just curious.'
Laurie


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## Julie

Laurie,
I don't know if you are asking me specifically...but it doesn't REALLY matter to me personally....I don't have one,but I like to keep informed on the hav issues.I find it fascinating that people think a chocolate is "all it",charging higher prices for a "so-called" rare chocolate...when in reality,according to Kimberly and the other breeders here,some of them wouldn't be chocolate,but people would call it that based on the fur.I think it is sad how others are trying to rip someone off,or mislead them.If you go to the websites I posted earlier,you will see it says completely different information.I'd rather be informed.......:biggrin1:


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## Laurief

Thanks , but no I wasnt really just asking you I was just wondering what the benefit was to "know for sure" exactly what they are. I love my guys, even if they were purple!!! So I wondered if showing was a reason to buy & know def. exactly what they are - then I can understand. I am just a good old home girl who thinks that all Havs are perfect but I can understand if you are breeding or showing and it would make a difference. 
Laurie


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## Beamer

I think breeders just charge more for Chocolates because they are rare. Thats pretty much it i guess.... As far as I know, you do not need a chocolate in the mix in order to produce a chocolate. It just 'happends' is what I've been told.
It's just funny that a 'chocolate' dog can be white.. lol.. 
You know when people ask you what your dog is, and you say Havanese, and they say hava what? Well try telling them your white dog is a Havanese Chocolate, and I bet the reaction would be double as bad... like huhhhhhhhh?????????.. lol

:brushteeth:


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## marjrc

Oooooohhhhhh, I have a headache trying to follow the explanations here!  :doh: LMBO

All this talk of chocolate is softening my reserve to avoid eating the stuff - you guys aren't helping!! :frusty: 

I think I understand anyway. A chocolate is only a chocolate if it has eyes, nose a brown color. Anything else, and it's not a chocolate Hav. That's it.

Oh boy, Ryan, people would definitely think we were nuts trying to explain that one!!! HA!
BTW, Ricky's dad is a chocolate, Chocolate Fondue - luscious name ain't it?


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## dboudreau

Laurie, for the average pet owner it makes no difference what color the dogs pigment is, but if you show and want to breed it is important to know the standard and breed to improve the breed. So if you have a dog with light pigment it should go to a loving pet home to be spoiled and loved.


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## Havtahava

> when in reality,according to Kimberly and the other breeders here,some of them wouldn't be chocolate,but people would call it that based on the fur.


Just to be clear, the definition of "chocolate" is not according to _me_, but according to the AKC Havanese Standard, which is all that really matters. :biggrin1:


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## susaneckert

this is what I found on the AKC Full complement of incisors preferred. *Disqualifications: *Complete absence of black (or chocolate in the chocolate dog) pigmentation on the eyerims, nose or lips. The eyes are dark brown, large, almond-shaped, and set rather widely apart. Dark eyes are preferred irrespective of coat color, although the chocolate colored dog may have somewhat lighter eyes. The pigment on the eyerims is complete, solid black for all colors except for the chocolate dog which has complete solid, dark chocolate pigment. No other dilution of pigment is acceptable. 
That truely does not explain alot to some one that is new in the feild does it??


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## Laurief

Thanks for the info, was just curious!
Laurie


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## susaneckert

one more section I seen 
The pigment on the nose and lips is complete, solid black for all colors except for the chocolate dog which has complete solid, dark chocolate brown pigment. No other dilution of pigment is acceptable.


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## abuelashavanese

susaneckert said:


> one more section I seen
> The pigment on the nose and lips is complete, solid black for all colors except for the chocolate dog which has complete solid, dark chocolate brown pigment. No other dilution of pigment is acceptable.


This is correct, and a solid white dog with light colored pigment is just that -- dilution of pigment -- it is not considered a chocolate dog.


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## susaneckert

what I came across just thought I would put it out there for any new comers 
The Havanese is AKC's 142nd breed
The Havanese is the National Dog of Cuba and the country's only native breed (Havana = Havanese).


Despite its being a new breed to the AKC, the Havanese is an old breed, descending from breeds brought over from Spain to Cuba.

The Havanese was once called the Havana Silk Dog or the Spanish Silk Poodle.

The coat of the Havanese is deceptively warm-looking; in reality, it is an insulation and barrier from the sun and overheating.

The Havanese descends from the same ancestor as the entire Bichon family, the Tenerife. 

By the mid-eighteenth century, the Havanese was so popular that it was owned by such celebrities as Queen Victoria and Charles Dickens. It became known as the dog of the aristocratic class of sugar barons of Cuba.


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## susaneckert

I wonder what a blue havanese looks like has any one seen a blue havanese I didnt relize how many colors there really is OMG there is alot I was checking out the color code on AKC WOW


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## Cosmosmom

Wow we are getting into more about elephants than Ireally want to know . Just kidding a lot of interesting information here .
When I bought Asta there was a chocolate male in his litter . Originally I wanted him as I had heard they were rare . I was told he was not the right temperment for what I wanted . At that time I was thinking agility might be fun ..
I think the real reason was that he was sold for more money than I paid for Asta . It was fine Asta was adorable and a a great dog as well .
The breeder did mention the hazel eyes as well . Also she said there was no guarantee he would not change his color as some had a tendency to fade .. Interesting even though I have two blacks - Ahnold has a lot of brown tint in his coat and Cosmo is a truer darker black ..


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## dotndani

So back to the original question.Duncan is brown with 2 white patches.Will he stay his beautiful brown,lighten in color,or totally change.His mom is black and white and his dad looks a little like Dusty here on this forum.
Any insight????oh,and he was the only brown one in his litter.
thanks


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## marjrc

Poor Dot! Do you mean, that in 6 pages of posts, no one was able to answer your initial question?? LOLound: Oh my, we ARE a chatty bunch, aren't we?! arty: :behindsofa: :blah: :blabla:

Nothing like sticking to the subject I always say! LOL 

Oh, and I dont' know the answer, though I've seen a lot of chocolates lighten their color over the years.


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## Beamer

Looking at past and present pics of Havanese color changes, I'd say that Duncan will get much lighter. It seems most lighten up and only a few stay the rich colors they once had as puppies. I'm no expert.. but thats what I see.... anywhooo.. just my 2 cents..


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## dotndani

Hey Marj,
What did Ricky's parents look like?Were they all brown?It looks like he kept his rich brown color.I love Duncan no matter what,but I really wish he keeps his brown color,but his face is getting lighter already.I better go out and buy some sun block!ound:


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## Beamer

*Duncan*

Lets see some new photos of your little guy! Have not seen any recently posted I don't think? How much does he weigh now?


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## Havtahava

Dot, if your breeder has been breeding for a while (especially both of the parents), she will have a much better guess than any of us would on how Duncan will hold his color or not. Some fade, some don't.


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## dotndani

There is a recent pic of him in the gallery.He weighs in at 6 lbs now.


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## marjrc

Top photo is of Ricky taken this spring that I find makes him look like his sire. The next picture is his dam, Diva of Domlina and the last is a photo of Ricky's sire, Loscompaneros Chocolate Fondue AKA "Cyclopse". 

I wish I had other pictures of his sire, but I don't.  I met Diva when we picked Ricky up at the breeders' last Sept. and she was a little shy.


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## dotndani

WOW!! I love his coloring.Did his breeder say he'll lighten in color?How old is he now?He is sooooo adorable!!!


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## Doggie Nut

Hey Marj...is Cyclopse a chocolate(don't want to start another debate!LOL!)?? His nose looks like it is brown...might just be the lighting!


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## whitBmom

Yes Cyclopse is a Chocolate - he came from the same breeder that Oreo came from. He is gorgeous.


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## Doggie Nut

OK....thought so! He is quite a looker!!:canada: :first:


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## Julie

Oh now come on you guys!......:croc: .........I wasn't debating......asking and getting answers.......if you read what others have on their websites,it is confusing.Inquiring minds want to know...(the TRUTH).If you didn't ask/question things,how would you know?NOT FAIR!:sad:


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## Doggie Nut

Only kidding Julie! I'm glad you asked cause I wanted to know too!! I now know exactly what a real chocolate is for the future!!:eyebrows:


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## Beamer

I was very confused about chocolates as well when I started reading about them. But now I think I have a fair understanding of whats going on in the world of chocolates... :brushteeth:


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## Julie

:drama:Well goodness......I hope you all don't think I was harrassing Kimberly!:sorry: I just was trying to "get it" perfectly clear,so I understood it!
:banplease: :smash:


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## whitBmom

Julie you brought up a valuable topic. Many inquiring minds want to know. I for one, am not an expert, as I am not a breeder, but I found it really interesting. Thanks for this topic


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## Doggie Nut

Julie....hope you don't think I was harrasing you about it...i was just trying to be funny....sure didn't mean anything by it.....I'm really sorry if it came across that way.:sorry: I enjoyed reading all the posts cause I too was "in the dark" when it came to the definition of what a true chocolate was. Anyway, I realize emails don't smile so sometimes the intent can be misunderstood.....I'll be more careful next time! Your Texas Friend! Vickieace: :biggrin1:


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## Havtahava

LOL Julie! You're a good sport. And just for clarity sake, I never thought you were harassing me.


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## DAJsMom

I'll chime in one more time about Dusty's coloring. She has lightened a lot. However, the chocolate coloring on either side of the white collar around her neck has not changed at all. The new growth is the same dark chocolate color as it was to begin with. The farther back from the white collar you go, and the farther down from the top, the more variations in color she has. I'll try and take a picture...


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## marjrc

Julie, Julie, Julie...... :hug: It's an interesting discussion and I'm glad you were the one asking the questions! Someone had to!! lol 

Don't worry, hon, o.k.? All it means, is that you are now competition with me for the yakkiest member here!! That's all.  LOL ((hugs))


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## marjrc

whitBmom said:


> Yes Cyclopse is a Chocolate - he came from the same breeder that Oreo came from. He is gorgeous.


Helen, do you remember if he looked much like in that photo when you saw him? Did you get to interact with him at all? If so, how was he? Were both Oreo's parents at that breeder's when you picked him up?

I think Dusty's color changes are so fascinating!! You'll have to take more pictures to show us! hint, hint.....


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## Julie

How about we all have a chocolate bar and celebrate we all now know the truth about chocolates?:becky:


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## Julie

Vicki:hug: 
Marj:hug:
Kimberly :hug:

:grouphug:


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## Havtahava

Julie, that's a sweet idea (pun intended), but you guys can have all the chocolates (dogs and sweets).


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## whitBmom

Sorry Marj, I did not see Cyclopse, as my breeder brought Oreo closer to me when she was going to NY for a show in Hamburg. I am thinking that when I purchase Hav #2 I am going to make the trek up there. Its about 6 hrs away from here, but it would be nice for hubby and I to just make a weekend trip out of it  Right now at this moment, I am not getting one but last night was interesting because just out of the blue my hubby says "Hav # 2" with a smile on his face. I simply smiled back and said "yeah, Hav # 2  " LOL. I think by next year we will be in the works for a new addition.


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## Doggie Nut

Julie:hug: I'm a "chocoholic" and I'm on the wagon!:nono: :Cry:


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## Laurief

Yea, I'm a chocoholic too- but I just sit in the "wagon" and eat it!!


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## Julie

LOL!You guys are the best!:laugh:


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## marjrc

HEY! Save some chocolate for me! I need some like a hole in the head :brick: but I still WANT some! lol

Helen, I know what you mean about wanting to go to the breeders', even if it is far. We went to ours that was about 3 hrs. each way and did it in one day. We also picked up Sammy 2 1/2 hrs. away, though NOT from his breeder since they are in Hungary!! IF... and it's a HUGE "IF", we get a third Hav., I'd probably drive for days if I had to, just to get the right one. Crazy.... :crazy:


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## dboudreau

I hate to bring this up again but: 

Has anyone read "The Joyous Havanese" by Katheryn Braund?

Chapter Nine: "Rainbow Colors of the Havanese" by Suzanne McKay, page 110:

"CHOCOLATE: Puppies are born chocolate. True chocolate dogs will have self-coloured liver or brown pigment; they cannot have anything black. They usually also have lighter coloured eyes in warm brown, amber or golden shades. Chocolate coats may vary from milk chocolate to a bittersweet chocolate colour. Some chocolate dogs may turn silver. These would correctly be called a "Chocolate Silver". Chocolate refers to the coat colour not only the pigment colour."

Is this wrong?


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## Havtahava

Which part, Debbie? It looks good to me. I've never heard the name of "Chocolate Silver", but Kitty (Kathryn Braund) has been around a lot longer than I have. 

As far as I'm concerned, the only part that really matters in deciding "chocolate" is that brown pigment instead of black. 

Not all dogs, but many of them change colors with time. I've seen some very creamy/light colored coated chocolates and it looks very interesting and intriguing, but doesn't appeal to me (to want to have), ya know?


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## Julie

See..........I haven't lost my mind!:biggrin1: I read that darn book too!:whoo:


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## Julie

Kimberly......I'll just take Tinky!I don't want a chocolate!:biggrin1: Well dog that is......I'll always go for the bar.........:biggrin1: Momma didn't raise no fool!


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## dboudreau

Havtahava said:


> LOL Julie! I'm glad you're not trying to drive me nuts!! :biggrin1: (Don't apologize. I understand.)
> 
> The *ONLY* thing that makes a dog a chocolate is the brown pigment. It does not matter what color his hair is. If you want to know if a dog is a chocolate, look at his nose (and eye rims and lips). That's it.
> 
> Here is the simple breakdown:
> Black pigment - a regular Havanese (no matter what color hair)
> Brown pigment - a chocolate Havanese
> Light grey, light brown or no pigment - a dog with poor pigment (since no other dilution is allowed)​
> *Ignore the hair color.* It doesn't matter in this topic. Does that help?


Hair colour does matter. Is how I understand the definition of Chocolate.


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## Havtahava

Julie, you can have Tinky so long as you come to live with us. Tinky kinda rules the roost around here -and we like it that way.


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## Havtahava

Debbie, so what are you saying about hair color then? Hair color doesn't matter in this breed (in terms of defining anything) because color changes. 

I had to go back and make sure you are in Canada before I commented more...
Chocolate may have a different definition up there and maybe that is where the confusion lies. 

In the U.S., we go by the AKC standard, which only uses pigment as the defining trait for "chocolate".


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## dboudreau

Just trying to understand the standard. It is not my definition, I'm just relaying what I have read and trying to understand.


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## Havtahava

OK, that makes sense. I thought you were quoting my "ignore the coat color" and saying that is how you were taught to tell a chocolate, so that is how it should be. Now I understand what you meant.

I just came back to post a photo I found online so I could create an example for you.

One of the reasons you don't want to define a chocolate by coat color is because a chocolate has a pretty high chance of being born with brown in the coat (light, dark, parti, whatever), but if the dog fades out, it can look like this girl, Coco:









Link to image: http://havinfunhavanese.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/coco035.jpg
I have no idea what Coco looked like as a puppy, but assuming she was light brown and faded to this, if we defined a "chocolate" by coat color, then she was a chocolate one year, and wasn't the next. That would get very complicated.

Instead, if we use pigment as the defining trait, you can see that Coco is a chocolate by her dark brown pigment, even though she doesn't have brown hair now.

(BTW, I found Coco on Hav In Fun Havanese in Indiana's web site. I don't know them or endorse them, but they just had a good example of a light color coat of a chocolate I could show.

I'm going to come back later and remove the image so I don't ruin their bandwidth.)


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## Julie

See ? This is why this whole chocolate thing is just crazy!The books tell you one thing,the breeders all say something different(not on the forum)but on different websites,the Akc says something,after awhile you think what the h___Shouldn't the breeders/Akc within the United States be the same?They're not.......I understand Canada may vary alittle,but it really shouldn't too much.


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## Beamer

Here is what the Canadian Kennel Club's standard is - They do not mention chocolate.

Havanese

Origin & Purpose
The breed comes from the Western Mediterranean region and has developed along the Spanish and Italian coastal region. It would seem that these dogs were imported early to Cuba by sea captains. Erroneously, the most frequent brown colour of these dogs (tobacco) gave birth to the legend which would mean it to be a breed originating from Havana, capital of Cuba. Political events led to the total disappearance of the old bloodlines of the Havanese in Cuba; apparently a few dogs were successfully smuggled out of Cuba whose descendants have survived in the U.S.A.

General Appearance
The Havanese is a sturdy little dog, low on his legs, with long abundant hair, soft and preferably wavy. His movement is lively and elastic.

Temperament
Exceptionally bright he is easy to train as a watchdog dog. Affectionate, of a happy nature, he is amiable, a charmer, playful and even a bit of a clown. He loves children and plays endlessly with them.

Size
Height at the withers from 23-27cm. Tolerance from 21-29cm.

Coat & Colour
Hair: undercoat woolly and not very developed; it is often totally absent. The topcoat is very long (12-18cm in adult dog), soft, flat or wavy and may form curly strands. The usage of scissors to even out the length of the coat and all trimming is forbidden. Exception: tidying up the hair on the feet is permitted, the hair on the forehead may be slightly shortened so that it does not cover the eyes and the hair on the muzzle may be slightly tidied up, but it is preferable to leave it in natural length. Colour: there are two varieties of colour. Rarely completely pure white; fawn in its different shades of light fawn to havana-brown (tobacco colour, reddish brown); patches in those colours of coat; slight blackened overlay admitted. Permissible colours and patches (white, light fawn to havana-brown) with black markings. Black coat.

Head
Of medium length, the relation between the length of the head and that of the trunk (measured from the withers to the base of the tail) is 3/7. Skull: flat to very slightly rounded, broad; forehead rising; seen from above it is rounded at the back and almost straight and square on the other three sides. Stop: moderately marked. Nose: black. Muzzle: narrowing progressively and slightly towards the nose but neither snipey nor truncated. Lips: fine, lean, tight. Jaws/Teeth: scissors bite. A complete dentition is desirable. The absence of premolars 1 (PM1) and molars 3 (M3) is tolerated. Cheeks: very flat, not prominent. Eyes: quite big, almond shape, of brown colour as dark as possible. Kind expression. The eye rims must be dark brown to black. Ears: set relatively high; they fall along the cheeks forming a discreet fold which raises them slightly. Their extremity is in a lightly rounded point. They are covered with hair in long fringes. Neither propeller ears (sticking sideways), nor stuck to the cheeks.

Neck
Of medium length

Forequarters
Forelegs straight and parallel, lean; good bone structure. The distance from the ground to the elbow must not be greater than that between the elbow and the withers.

Body
The length of the body is slightly superior to that of the height at the withers. Topline straight, slightly arched over the loin. Croup noticeably inclined. Ribs well sprung. Belly well tucked up.

Hindquarters
Good bone structure; moderate angulations. Feet of slightly elongated shape; small; tight toes.

Tail
Carried high, either in shape of a crozier or preferably rolled over the back; it is furnished with feathering of long silky hair.

Gait
According to his happy nature, the Havanese has a strikingly light-footed and elastic gait; forelegs with free stride and pointing straight forward, the hindlegs giving them the impulsion and moving in a straight line.

Faults
Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree.
? General appearance lacking in type
? Truncated or snipey muzzle, length not identical to that of the skull
? Bird of prey eyes; eyes too deep set or prominent; rims of eyelids partially depigmented
? Body too long or too short
? Straight tail, not carried high
? French front (pasterns too close, feet turned outwards)
? Deformed hind feet
? Coat harsh, not abundant; hair short except on puppies; groomed coat

Disqualification
? Depigminted nose
? Upper or lower prognathism
? Ectropion, entropion; rim of eyelids of one or both eyes depigmented
? Size over or under the indicated norms of the standard
N.B.: Male animals should have two apparently normal testicles fully descended into the scrotum.


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## Julie

Isn't that interesting.........hmmmmm........


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## dboudreau

FYI

The Canadian Kennel Club uses the FCI standard, but it is currently being reviewed by the Havanese Fanciers of Canada, and updated.


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## marjrc

Oy! I'm getting dizzy!!!!! :doh:  LOL

Interesting that the Cdn. standard mentions Havana brown, but not Chocolate. :suspicious:


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## whitBmom

Euyvey:suspicious: , just when I thought I had a handle on things.... I realize that I clearly don't.... :frusty: :suspicious:


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## susaneckert

YOu all are funny! I beleave in asking no matter how dum it may seem to you !Isnt that what the site is for LEARNING ???? Getting input on how other havs are ? HMMMMMMMM  Thats is one of the reasons why I like this site and the other is you are so nice to every one.Choc. hav can be confuse to me any ways . YOu all crack me up


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## DAJsMom

Okay. My baby has liver pigment, hazel eyes, and various and constantly changing shades of brown hair. Whatever that's called, we think she's cute! I can see why her breeder wasn't too interested in getting into breeding chocolates though! We're glad she wasn't because we love Dusty!:biggrin1:


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## DAJsMom

These are the Dusty as a Grub shots. The best ones I could get anyway. When you try and take a picture of the dog's face, she won't look at the camera, but when you try and get a photo of the top of her, well...

At least you can see some of the color variations! When she was a pup, she dark brown.
I'll attach a photo of that too.


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## Julie

I'm not sure besides a hershey,I'd want one......let alone breed them!There is so much conflicting information out there,who knows?It seems it would take an army of breeders to confirm/deny you had one anyway.YIKES!I like your Dusty though! 
Seems like maybe the hav world should decide what the rules are for claiming a chocolate,so everyone agrees...and then go from there.Teach the judges in the ring at the same time.That would better the breed,getting them to standard.I wonder has a chocolate ever won at a show?Like Westminster?If so was he brown with brown pigment on his nose etc.?Just curious.......


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## Julie

She's not a grub!:nono:


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## DAJsMom

Dusty as a puppy. So cute! We didn't meet her till she was 6 months. We were pretty suprised at how dark she was when we saw that first photo! When we met her she looked like she had highlights on her back. That's the bottom picture. For some reason she reminded us of Animal from the Muppets!


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## Beamer

I don't think breeding chocolate dogs is by choice. Seems they just show up in 'normal' litters...kinda like twins for humans..lol.. Both of Mangos parents are not chocolates. I think it has to do with the female dog more than the male.. or something like that.. lol..


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## Julie

Wow!She was dark.....she has really changed!She will probably darker back up you think?


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## Julie

Ryan,there is a group of people in Canada breeding chocolate havs......I will have to see if I can find their website again...

Quincy has a champion chocolate brother....(he's not as cute as Quincy):wink:


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## whitBmom

Chocolates in Canada!! Please let me know 

And as for Dusty - she is gorgeous!! And I agree with Julie - she is not a grub


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## susaneckert

Go to akc.org and you will see it in the standard but there still is not a whole lot of information on the choc.


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## Julie

I ran across a havanese breeder -group of 3 people or perhaps 4 in Canada.Their website says they specialize in "belguim chocolate".It is actually cute to see the different colors and their names for them!Anyway the website is elitehavanese.com


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## Julie

Helen and Ryan,
Did you have a chance to visit the Canadian Chocolate Breeders website?Just curious what you thought........:ear:


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## Beamer

Yeah, I was in discussions with those breeders early this year when I was searching for a pup. I don't think they are in the business of producing chocolates.. I think they are just using a play on words.. I think anyways.. lol..


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## marjrc

I found their website a while ago and have a fondness for Zeus and Goucho at Mystykalsky in New Brunswick. sigh....... 

After bringing both Ricky and Sammy to a dog park and to the groomer's for a nail trim (she had no time so we have to go back) , in the hot 90F and humid weather it was a chore! I doubt having a 3rd one day is a possibilty,... though I can't say 'never'. It's a lot of fun, but it's still a lot of work!


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## Julie

Are you hoping for a chocolate Marj,if MHS strikes again?:biggrin1: They are all so cute,I think it would be most fun to be rich enough to just say.....I'll take one of each!:becky:
You have to admit.....you'd have alot of ear lickies:ear:


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## marjrc

Let's just say that IF, and it's a huge IF, we get a third one day, I dont' want to see too much black. I'd love a Hav with the colors of Debbie's Sam and Melissa's Stogie, or some kind of brown or an actual chocolate.

Yup, expense is one reason, but then there's space in the house, in the van, more to be responsible for, clean up after, get leashed and walked and to the groomers' for the nail trimming...... it's a lot when you add a third! I only have two hands the last time I checked. LOL

Maybe if we didn't have two cats as well...... maybe !!! 

As to 'ear lickies', Sammy has got to be the most persistent ear cleaner ever! LOL I dont' like it much, to be honest, but my daughter Lina (12) thinks I'm some kind of alien because I avoid having the insides of my ears dug up by the little guy. She loves it and giggles the whole time he's at it! Too cute.


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## Laurief

Marj, you are getting my blood pressure up!! :dance: DONT talk abut a third unless you are gonna get one!! Honesty, yes a little more work, but one more to love & be loved by!!!:whoo: :whoo: -MHS hits again!!
Laurie


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## Julie

Marj,
You like the sables too huh?Me too!I also saw a really red one on a site that was super cool.Also the gray ones.......I like those......see?One of each!:becky:


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## HavaBaloo

marjrc said:


> I found their website a while ago and have a fondness for Zeus and Goucho at Mystykalsky in New Brunswick. sigh.......
> 
> After bringing both Ricky and Sammy to a dog park and to the groomer's for a nail trim (she had no time so we have to go back) , in the hot 90F and humid weather it was a chore! I doubt having a 3rd one day is a possibilty,... though I can't say 'never'. It's a lot of fun, but it's still a lot of work!


I live in New Brunswick and Mystykalsky, is the breeder who gave me Baloo...I was very lucky.

http://www.mystykalsky.com/index.html

She was going to use him to show, but he developed Cherry eye and I applied when she was looking for someone to give him a good home. He isn't chocolate, but I do know, that she has had quite a few chocolates in past batches.

I love the brown little nose...too cute!


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## trueblue

Just looked at the Mystykalsky site....the little chocolate boy is adorable! I want him!


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## KrisE

from what I understand, green and blue eyes are acceptable in the ring, but darker eyes are preferred.

I'm told my girl will lighten then darken a few times. I already see a new color coming from the roots in some areas so she's on her way to lightening a bit. 
I can't wait to see the changes.


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## Havtahava

Kris, even chocolates are supposed to have brown eyes. Specifically, here is how it is written in the standard: 
"The expression is soft and intelligent, mischievous rather than cute. The eyes are *dark brown*, large, almond-shaped, and set rather widely apart. *Dark eyes are preferred irrespective of coat color, although the chocolate colored dog may have somewhat lighter eyes*."

They are still supposed to be brown, but may be lighter.

By the way, you worded it, I suppose that whoever told you this means that you will not get a DQ (disqualification) in the ring, but very few judges will put up a dog with light eyes if all else is equal.


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## KrisE

Thanks for the clarification. At 15 weeks, I see a lightening and some silver strands in coco's back. first of many coat changes I'm sure. She does have darker eyes.


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## HavaBaloo

Oh I love Coco's coloring.....ssswwweeeet!


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## moxie

Came across this old thread, curious how Coco's color is changing as I have always wanted a chocolate....??


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## hartman studio

I don't know how Coco's color is changing, but my Cocotini will be 2 in November and is still a rich, dark chocolate. I can't seem to capture it with a camera, but her head is really dark brown, then her body is a dark brown with reddish lights to it, and her tail end is just slightly lighter.When you look at her from above it's a very subtle color grade change.


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## moxie

Oh Cocotini is beautiful! Who was the breeder?


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## Janet Zee

moxie said:


> Oh Cocotini is beautiful! Who was the breeder?


I would like to know also!!


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## juliav

It would be great to see updated pictures of all our chocolates to see how/if their coloring has changed, pawleeeeze. :biggrin1:


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## moxie

Yeah, pawleeez!


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## DAJsMom

Here's Dusty. She had just had a bath and is wet, but she looks about the same dry, color-wise. At three, she is much lighter than she was as a puppy, but still has lots of color. She still is very dark on her ears, especially. I think if we put her in a puppy cut, she would actually look quite a bit darker than she does now. Her body hairs are lightest on the ends.


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## Sheri

Joelle,
---and a puppy picture right here, too, please? 

Dusty is a gorgeous girl!! Love that you are keeping her in full coat!


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## hartman studio

Here is a picture of Cocotini at 4mos and one I took this morning. She is 22 months old now. As you can see there is very little difference in color. My avatar is Cocotini at 1 year old. I did not get Cocotini until she was 6 mos as she was tiny and the breeder would not let her go until then. Any one interested in breeder info please pm me- I have been extremely happy with Cocotini's health and temperment.


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## Sheri

Ahhh, she's SO pretty!


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## DAJsMom

Sheri--there's a couple of puppy photos of Dusty in post 106 of this thread and an adult photo from a year or so ago at post 103.


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## Sheri

Thanks, Joelle! Dusty has been so very pretty all along! She's classy!


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