# Stop Command



## DAU (Apr 30, 2020)

Henri is 22 weeks and is awesome. Any suggestions on how to train him to stop on command? Example, he escaped under a fence and ran for two blocks before I could grab his collar. Thanks.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

DAU said:


> Henri is 22 weeks and is awesome. Any suggestions on how to train him to stop on command? Example, he escaped under a fence and ran for two blocks before I could grab his collar. Thanks.


That is a very, VERY advanced concept. One that is tested only at the VERY highest level of competition obedience training. It would be MUCH easier (not EASY, but EASIER!) and more age-appropriate to teach him a very reliable recall. This takes time and LOTS and LOTS of repetition but is within the grasp of a young dog. (and would be just ONE of the steps in teaching that "stop" command too! 

Only one of mine, the 11-year-old, has a reliable "stop" when off-leash in the woods. And even with him, unless I follow it up with another command, it is more a "wait" than a full stop. When he gets too far ahead, I will call, "Far enough!". He will stop and wait for me to close the gap. At that point I'll tell him "Go", and he's off again! But honestly, that is something that developed through our close work and understanding on off-leash hikes, over a period of years. And I couldn't have DONE those off-leash hikes if he didn't have an absolutely reliable recall, so he would come all the way back to me any time he is asked. THAT took, over and over, calling him in, giving him treats and pats, then releasing him to run again. Over and over and over, on every single walk. Starting on a long line, then working up to off-leash in enclosed areas, then finally off-leash in the open. BUT... This is AT LEAST a year or more of consistent, almost daily, work.

For now, at 22 weeks, your best bet is to confine and supervise in a way that keeps him getting away from you! Even if that means he has to drag a long line at all times when he's outdoors.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

We are working on “stay with me”, “far enough” and “check it out” with Oliver ON LEASH. It’s not because he’s not a good loose leash walker, but because he freaks out and barks at certain things that scare him, like men in hats or rolling objects like bikes and scooters sometimes. You could work with these commands on leash while knowing your dog is not in danger but you’re still teaching them to stay with you and developing that bond.


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## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

That must of been an extremely frightening experience for both you and Henri. Annie and I belonged to the Keystone Canine Club while living in PA. One of the exercises that we worked on in obedience class was the In Motion Down Command. We would run with our dogs at a fairly good pace and have them down while moving. This was an important skill for the dogs to learn as it could stop them on a dime and potentially remove them from dangerous situations. You can find several video tutorials demonstrating this skill on YouTube. Hope this is helpful!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Woods said:


> We are working on "stay with me", "far enough" and "check it out" with Oliver ON LEASH. It's not because he's not a good loose leash walker, but because he freaks out and barks at certain things that scare him, like men in hats or rolling objects like bikes and scooters sometimes. You could work with these commands on leash while knowing your dog is not in danger but you're still teaching them to stay with you and developing that bond.


However, it's unlikely that a 5 month old puppy has established good loose leash walking skills yet...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Faithb said:


> That must of been an extremely frightening experience for both you and Henri. Annie and I belonged to the Keystone Canine Club while living in PA. One of the exercises that we worked on in obedience class was the In Motion Down Command. We would run with our dogs at a fairly good pace and have them down while moving. This was an important skill for the dogs to learn as it could stop them on a dime and potentially remove them from dangerous situations. You can find several video tutorials demonstrating this skill on YouTube. Hope this is helpful!


This is a great exercise, but it's not something that a 5-month-old puppy is ready for. Even if the puppy is pretty good at loose leash walking, (unlikely) it is REALLY unlikely that he has learned pace changes like fast and slow. So the puppy is unlikely to have ANY idea what to do with his handler running beside him. He'll have way too much to think about to learn a drop in motion command. (a lot of people have not taught a down from a stand, let alone in motion, at this age...) Great skills to work on, but unlikely to help in the current situation!


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

Melissa Woods said:


> We are working on "stay with me", "far enough" and "check it out" with Oliver ON LEASH. It's not because he's not a good loose leash walker, but because he freaks out and barks at certain things that scare him, like men in hats or rolling objects like bikes and scooters sometimes. You could work with these commands on leash while knowing your dog is not in danger but you're still teaching them to stay with you and developing that bond.


Definitely true. I'm working on 'look at me' and drop it and recall, for the most part with Roxie. That said, I think at 5 months I had Oliver doing RELATIVELY well on the leash. I know he didn't have loose leash down but I just meant it might be something to start before the stop command off leash. Maybe beginning that on a leash would be safer. I know it's best not to do real 'walks' with puppies but I do like to do 5-10 minute ones around my cup-de-sac etc because they just learn easier as puppies. Granted, Roxie LOVES to run in circles around me on the leash and I let her. It's fun. I was SHOCKED to see that a trainer in a Havanese group on FB recommended a CHOKE COLLAR for a four month old puppy who was 'pulling' on a leash. Seriously? My dog is 3.5 months and 5 lbs. I cannot IMAGINE doing such a thing at any age, but as a puppy that will definitely create a negative association and cause lifetime damage.

It would have terrified me, too. And it's basically a crap shoot at that age as to whether they'll listen. I don't trust Oliver in a distracted situation at all. In fact, IMO the BEST thing to do in an emergency like that is turn around and run the other way. It sounds counterintuitive, but my dog likes to chase me and if I chased after him, it would make things worse.

But I do think learning a leash (and I'm one of the few that doesn't think it's necessary for my dog to be 100% in line with me at every step.) I'm fine as long as he isn't pulling and is pretty close. My trainer says his skills that way are good enough and that other things take precedence. She actually suggested a longer leash.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Woods said:


> Definitely true. I'm working on 'look at me' and drop it and recall, for the most part with Roxie. That said, I think at 5 months I had Oliver doing RELATIVELY well on the leash. I know he didn't have loose leash down but I just meant it might be something to start before the stop command off leash. Maybe beginning that on a leash would be safer. I know it's best not to do real 'walks' with puppies but I do like to do 5-10 minute ones around my cup-de-sac etc because they just learn easier as puppies. Granted, Roxie LOVES to run in circles around me on the leash and I let her. It's fun. I was SHOCKED to see that a trainer in a Havanese group on FB recommended a CHOKE COLLAR for a four month old puppy who was 'pulling' on a leash. Seriously? My dog is 3.5 months and 5 lbs. I cannot IMAGINE doing such a thing at any age, but as a puppy that will definitely create a negative association and cause lifetime damage. .


A lot of good advice in this post!  Did you come up with the circles by yourself? Or have to learned Denise Fenzi's "Circle walking"? I used more traditional (positive) training methods with my older ones. Pixel was easy... she has always naturally wanted to stay close. Kodi took a fairly long time to really be reliable about loose leash walking. Panda LOOKED like she was going to be another tough nut when it came to LLW. Now, this was a puppy who started competition obedience training (in a puppy friendly way) at 12 weeks. She had BEAUTIFUL, off-leash, formal heeling in the ring a YEAR before she was getting better about LLW. It was learning circle walking that gave me the "hook" I needed to get her past pulling in an over-excited state. circling EVERY TIME she tightened the leash let her get rid of excess energy, while not pulling on her neck, and taught her that we didn't get ANYWHERE until she settled herself down. Maybe it was because she was the "right stage", I'm not sure. But it took about 3 walks with consistent circling, and she was TONS better. She can still get overexcited when she knows we are going on a walk (and she is 4 yrs old) but a few loopy circles are enough to get her head in the game, and then, barring a chipmunk or something, she will be fine for the rest of the walk!

I think 10 minute "puppy walks", to practice leash skills or just to follow the puppy and let them explore, is just perfect! ...And yes, if ANYONE suggests putting a choke or prong collar on a Havanese, RUN the other way!



Melissa Woods said:


> It would have terrified me, too. And it's basically a crap shoot at that age as to whether they'll listen. I don't trust Oliver in a distracted situation at all. In fact, IMO the BEST thing to do in an emergency like that is turn around and run the other way. It sounds counterintuitive, but my dog likes to chase me and if I chased after him, it would make things worse.


Yes!!! This is one of the BEST ways to get them to come back!



Melissa Woods said:


> But I do think learning a leash (and I'm one of the few that doesn't think it's necessary for my dog to be 100% in line with me at every step.) I'm fine as long as he isn't pulling and is pretty close. My trainer says his skills that way are good enough and that other things take precedence. She actually suggested a longer leash.


I think it is important for people to understand that there is a HUGE difference between loose leash walking and formal obedience "heeling". Unless you plan to compete, most dogs NEVER need to learn formal heeling. If you DO plan to compete, this is not a skill you generally teach out on casual walks. It is HARD for the dog, both mentally and physically, and is taught in TINY steps, for a few steps at a time. As I said, both Kodi and Panda had beautiful ring heeling, before they were reliable abut LLW. formal obedience heeling is a "trick" they learn. LLW needs to be comfortable for the human and the dog for long periods. Everyone has their own criteria for loose leash walking, and if you are happy with what you are getting, and the dog is not pulling you around or hurting themselves, it's perfect! My LLW criteria re pretty simple. They can be in front of me or behind me, but the leash must never get taut enough that I can't comfortably hold it on one finger. (a holdover from my horse days  ) Which means, that if they've been keeping it loose, they can even stop and give something a quick sniff, as long as the moment they feel the leash tighten, they move along again.

My other rule is they must be willing to walk on either side of me (because I am usually walking two dogs, and sometimes all three) and they must NEVER cross in front of me. It's fine if they cross behind me, but I DO not want to get tripped!

They all have developed their own "style". Kodi MUST lead the way on all walks. but he goes out in front on the LIGHTEST of "contact" on the leash, and is totally "steerable" out there, Pixel ALWAYS wants to be at our side, but either side will do. The cutest thing she does is if Dave is walking her and I'm walking one of the others, I tend to be in front (Dave is a slow walker  ) and even though she is attached to Dave, she will walk in "close to heel" position with me. Panda takes advantage of ALL allowed positions! As a result, when walking all three, I keep Kodi and Pixel in one hand and Panda in the other. Otherwise, she'd constantly be tangling with the others!

So I am 100% with you! I don't worry about "proper position" on walks either!


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

krandall said:


> A lot of good advice in this post!  Did you come up with the circles by yourself? Or have to learned Denise Fenzi's "Circle walking"? I used more traditional (positive) training methods with my older ones. Pixel was easy... she has always naturally wanted to stay close. Kodi took a fairly long time to really be reliable about loose leash walking. Panda LOOKED like she was going to be another tough nut when it came to LLW. Now, this was a puppy who started competition obedience training (in a puppy friendly way) at 12 weeks. She had BEAUTIFUL, off-leash, formal heeling in the ring a YEAR before she was getting better about LLW. It was learning circle walking that gave me the "hook" I needed to get her past pulling in an over-excited state. circling EVERY TIME she tightened the leash let her get rid of excess energy, while not pulling on her neck, and taught her that we didn't get ANYWHERE until she settled herself down. Maybe it was because she was the "right stage", I'm not sure. But it took about 3 walks with consistent circling, and she was TONS better. She can still get overexcited when she knows we are going on a walk (and she is 4 yrs old) but a few loopy circles are enough to get her head in the game, and then, barring a chipmunk or something, she will be fine for the rest of the walk!
> 
> I think 10 minute "puppy walks", to practice leash skills or just to follow the puppy and let them explore, is just perfect! ...And yes, if ANYONE suggests putting a choke or prong collar on a Havanese, RUN the other way!
> 
> ...


No, actually I thought the circle thing was a no-no! Oliver just loved to spin around me in circles, kind of like zoomies on a leash. I knew I wasn't teaching him anything proper about walking on a leash, but it calmed him down enough to walk well, without pulling and trying to bounce off in that Havanese puppy way. He is great at walking on a leash now, to our benefit. The issue we have is he will bark at a biker, and I instinctively pull back, which makes him think I WANT him to be anxious, and then he lunges. So the trainer was trying to show me how to get him more concentrated on me than the stimulus he's reacting to. And there are treats involved, LOL. And Roxie ALSO loves the circle thing, so I was just letting her do it because she's having fun. So maybe it isn't a bad thing to do while leash training?

I need to figure out how to walk them both simultaneously when we get to that time! So those are all great points about figuring out which side. Oliver is a right side walker currently.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I thought the same thing when the trainer suggested a slip lead, that tightens when they pull. I heard so many horror stories about collars and even improper harnesses for small dogs. I almost didn’t do it! My expectation was low, and he was walking loose most of the time - his leash pulling was sporadic, usually when he saw another dog. She taught us where to place it and how to use it properly (he was almost 2!) and all pulling was “fixed” almost immediately. Later I went back to look up where to place it, and one of the most viewed YouTube videos showed the placement where I was sure the trainer told me not to get place it. 

I do think there are situations where different training methods can be useful. It helped for us because it provides immediate feedback, both to correct the behavior and to reassure that there is still a protector connected to the leash. It is scary that so many people get this kind of direction from YouTube instead of hands on from someone who knows how to do it safely.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I like the different training suggestions. I used to keep them bookmarked since a lot of them are down the line kinds of things but after a while the list became so long I stopped bookmarking them! I need to check off a few goals and get the list a bit shorter again


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## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

krandall said:


> This is a great exercise, but it's not something that a 5-month-old puppy is ready for. Even if the puppy is pretty good at loose leash walking, (unlikely) it is REALLY unlikely that he has learned pace changes like fast and slow. So the puppy is unlikely to have ANY idea what to do with his handler running beside him. He'll have way too much to think about to learn a drop in motion command. (a lot of people have not taught a down from a stand, let alone in motion, at this age...) Great skills to work on, but unlikely to help in the current situation!


Yes, this is definitely a more advanced concept that is taught after mastering the basic skills. I agree that it is better to keep young puppies safe by limiting their environment, keeping them on a leash, etc. and that the down in motion would be better filed away for the future. It has been a very long time since I worked with a puppy, lol.


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## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I thought the same thing when the trainer suggested a slip lead, that tightens when they pull. I heard so many horror stories about collars and even improper harnesses for small dogs. I almost didn't do it! My expectation was low, and he was walking loose most of the time - his leash pulling was sporadic, usually when he saw another dog. She taught us where to place it and how to use it properly (he was almost 2!) and all pulling was "fixed" almost immediately. Later I went back to look up where to place it, and one of the most viewed YouTube videos showed the placement where I was sure the trainer told me not to get place it.
> 
> I do think there are situations where different training methods can be useful. It helped for us because it provides immediate feedback, both to correct the behavior and to reassure that there is still a protector connected to the leash. It is scary that so many people get this kind of direction from YouTube instead of hands on from someone who knows how to do it safely.


I am curious about the types of collars/harnesses you all use. Currently I have a small vest type harness that we use for very short walks and a small fabric collar that I use for outdoor potty breaks. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Woods said:


> No, actually I thought the circle thing was a no-no! Oliver just loved to spin around me in circles, kind of like zoomies on a leash. I knew I wasn't teaching him anything proper about walking on a leash, but it calmed him down enough to walk well, without pulling and trying to bounce off in that Havanese puppy way. He is great at walking on a leash now, to our benefit. The issue we have is he will bark at a biker, and I instinctively pull back, which makes him think I WANT him to be anxious, and then he lunges. So the trainer was trying to show me how to get him more concentrated on me than the stimulus he's reacting to. And there are treats involved, LOL. And Roxie ALSO loves the circle thing, so I was just letting her do it because she's having fun. So maybe it isn't a bad thing to do while leash training?
> 
> I need to figure out how to walk them both simultaneously when we get to that time! So those are all great points about figuring out which side. Oliver is a right side walker currently.


No, circling can be a good thing... though it depends on the dog. A FEW (very few, and they seem to be working breeds like Tervs and Mals) ramp up when circles, so you have to observe the dog, and make sure it's going in the right direction emotionally.

Panda was not "reactive" to other dogs, necessarily, but just got over-excited seeing dogs or wild animals. That would make her try to charge at them. Whether you pull back or not, they can quickly hit the end of the leash doing that. And because she shows, harnesses aren't a great option, as every bunch of mats removed due to a harness means coat lost. OTOH, I sure didn't want her damaging her trachea! The thing I like about circle walking is that the pressure is much less, and it is on the side of the neck, not the throat. And I guess, coming from the horse world, "lunging" (exercising a horse, on a long "rope" (lunge line) is just a very easy concept for me.

The next step, beyond just letting them burn off steam running in circles, is to teach the dog that you are going to send them into a circle any time they start to react to something. You can slowly work your circle away from whatever is triggering them until they reach a distance where they can calm down. You have to teach them to circle when they are ramped up, but once they learn it, (and it took VERY few repetitions for Panda) they start easily into a circle when you initiate it. When they are circling, they CAN'T hurt their throat. (Though you can do this as easily with a harness as a collar)

I did not need to use treats or a clicker to teach circling to Panda. She caught on very easily. But other people have used treats and a clicker Or can use an oral marker of some kind, if you don't want to deal with a clicker on top of everything else... my oral marker is a tongue click, again because it comes easily to me from work with horses. You can search "Fenzi circle walking" on YouTube for lots of examples of people using it, but I found this one very quickly, and from what you said, it sounds like this dog is doing the same sort of reacting lunging you describe with Oliver. So you can see how this person handled it:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I thought the same thing when the trainer suggested a slip lead, that tightens when they pull. I heard so many horror stories about collars and even improper harnesses for small dogs. I almost didn't do it! My expectation was low, and he was walking loose most of the time - his leash pulling was sporadic, usually when he saw another dog. She taught us where to place it and how to use it properly (he was almost 2!) and all pulling was "fixed" almost immediately. Later I went back to look up where to place it, and one of the most viewed YouTube videos showed the placement where I was sure the trainer told me not to get place it.
> 
> I do think there are situations where different training methods can be useful. It helped for us because it provides immediate feedback, both to correct the behavior and to reassure that there is still a protector connected to the leash. It is scary that so many people get this kind of direction from YouTube instead of hands on from someone who knows how to do it safely.


The problem with slip leads (which is just another name for a choke collar) is that in small dogs, their trachea is SO vulnerable. And they are ALREADY more prone to collapsing tracheas than larger dogs. And it is something that, once the damage is done, there is no going back. (And there is no "safe" place to put a slip or choke on a small breed dog in terms of collapsing tracheas). HOWEVER, be aware that slips and chokes are different from martingale and "limited slip" collar. On a dog that knows how to walk correctly, a martingale tightens ony to the point where it won't slip off over the head if the dog pulls back, even if they are quite loose under normal circumstances. It is a "fail safe". They were originally designed for dogs with small, narrow heads, like greyhounds and other sight hounds, where the circumference of the neck is often not much different than the circumference of the head. I do know a number of people who use martingales on their Havanese that are good walkers, simply because you can slip them easily on and off over the dog's head when they are slack. It makes it easy to put it on quicky on a furry beast when you are going out for a quick potty walk.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Faithb said:


> I am curious about the types of collars/harnesses you all use. Currently I have a small vest type harness that we use for very short walks and a small fabric collar that I use for outdoor potty breaks. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.


Those are what I used for all of mine as very small puppies. When they got older, and were actually going out for longer walks (about a year old) I switched to front attach harnesses. (My favorite is the Petsafe 3-in-1, which is VERY adjustable, but the smallest aize will not fit a Havanese PUPPY) I have tried other front-attCh harnesses, and found fit problems, either the front strap ends up interfere with the trachea, or it is so low the dog gets a front foot through it, or they interfere with shoulder movement.

And now, all of mine are fully adult, and we are dealing with different issues. With Panda, it is coat preservation which means she is usually walked on a soft, cloth collar. Pixel NEVER pulls, so it really doesn't matter WHAT is areound her neck... it's mostly for show. LOL! In Kodi's case, he wore the Petsafe harness (Or other harnesses before that) for years. But he now has a lypoma that comes RIGHT where the strap that goes around the cheat on any haness I've seen would rub. So I can't use a harness for that reason.

I really BELIEVE in harnesses for casual walking, especially for dogs who aren't REALLY reliable about NEVER hitting the end of the leash. But they don't work on two of mine right now, and all three walk very reliably without one. BUT, I've made good leash manners a real priority in my training, too.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

krandall said:


> The problem with slip leads (which is just another name for a choke collar) is that in small dogs, their trachea is SO vulnerable. And they are ALREADY more prone to collapsing tracheas than larger dogs. And it is something that, once the damage is done, there is no going back. (And there is no "safe" place to put a slip or choke on a small breed dog in terms of collapsing tracheas). HOWEVER, be aware that slips and chokes are different from martingale and "limited slip" collar. On a dog that knows how to walk correctly, a martingale tightens ony to the point where it won't slip off over the head if the dog pulls back, even if they are quite loose under normal circumstances. It is a "fail safe". They were originally designed for dogs with small, narrow heads, like greyhounds and other sight hounds, where the circumference of the neck is often not much different than the circumference of the head. I do know a number of people who use martingales on their Havanese that are good walkers, simply because you can slip them easily on and off over the dog's head when they are slack. It makes it easy to put it on quicky on a furry beast when you are going out for a quick potty walk.


I'm not advocating that anyone use one, that's kind of my point, really. There are still risks, but I believe the trainer was experienced and could see that ours would benefit from it, and helped us to use it in the best way possible. I did trust the trainer, and I have to admit, I'm pretty blatantly judgmental about trainers and methods. I have a whole list of "trigger words," and I do need to work on that. A lot of the time those words come up because people care about their dogs and are trying to educate themselves, and it's not their fault there is a lot of terrible information out there. I've been there myself.

It really took 1 session to resolve the pulling, because he learned almost immediately, he didn't pull hard even once. For a couple of days afterwards he pulled slightly at the beginning of the walk but then stopped. The skill transferred to the harness, so after a while we naturally returned to the harness for walks. But it's nice to be able to use the slip to take him out to go potty in the yard.

I also think it may have made a difference that we spent a lot of time working on loose leash walking before this, on a harness. He wasn't a puppy.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

My dogs naturally love to circle (as puppies) so I just let them for fun. I stand still and let them run, just passing the leash behind me from hand to hand. A good pre-bedtime exercise too lol. Thank you for the video. I like the idea of using this as a more advanced training tool!


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