# dog trainer refuses to do indoor potty training



## Nora (Feb 12, 2019)

A dog trainer I recently contacted told me that he will not do indoor potty training because he does not believe it works successfully. By this He means that it is not reliable and the dog only uses an indoor potty 60% of the time. Can someone comment on their experiences with this potty method? Thank you.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Nora said:


> A dog trainer I recently contacted told me that he will not do indoor potty training because he does not believe it works successfully. By this He means that it is not reliable and the dog only uses an indoor potty 60% of the time. Can someone comment on their experiences with this potty method? Thank you.


That dog trainer doesn't know what he is talking about. My dogs are 10, 4 and 3 and from two different breeders. All are 100% reliably house trained, all preferentially potty outdoors and all will use an indoor potty (litter box with a grate) if they need to. They have all been doing that since they were small puppies and were all started on that system by their breeders.


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## Barbara Levy (Apr 22, 2016)

krandall said:


> That dog trainer doesn't know what he is talking about. My dogs are 10, 4 and 3 and from two different breeders. All are 100% reliably house trained, all preferentially potty outdoors and all will use an indoor potty (litter box with a grate) if they need to. They have all been doing that since they were small puppies and were all started on that system by their breeders.


My 3 year old is the same except he refuses to use his indoor option if we are home. He would rather go out in a monsoon or blizzard than use the UGoDog. We just brought puppy home on Sunday. He is reliable using the UGoDog in the ex pen. I want him to use it when we are home ... like during the night so I don't have to come downstairs in the middle of the night. On the rare occasion Loki needs to go during the night, he won't just get off the bed and use the UGoDog, I have to take him out. I want to change that with the puppy. Suggestions?

Obviously, the trainer has never trained a Havi to use an indoor option. Lots of people here do it very successfully.


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## Nora (Feb 12, 2019)

thanks for your replies. 

Can I ask how large your ex-pen is and how large the UGoDog is? What size pads do you use for your adult dogs and puppies??


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Nora said:


> thanks for your replies.
> 
> Can I ask how large your ex-pen is and how large the UGoDog is? What size pads do you use for your adult dogs and puppies??


Our set-up has changed between Kodi and the girls but I'll put pictures below of the set-ups we had for each. Keep in mind that these set-ups were for puppies who already were well trained to litter boxes. If you were introducing it to a puppy who had no clue, you would need a smaller space. I will include a third photo that shows that. In that case, it was following a UTI, when Panda had convinced herself that the potty was the cause of her discomfort, and we had to convince her otherwise. It only took 2 or 3 days of this level of confinement, because she already understood the game.

With a puppy who DOESN'T understand an indoor potty, you would not expand the space until they were 100% successful with this amount of space for at least a week or so, then SLOWLY increase the space. Any time spent outside that space would ONLY be when you knew the puppy was "empty", AND with _100% "eyes-on"_ supervision. If you have to take your eyes and attention off the puppy for a split second, the puppy has to go back into the expen.

This may sound very regimented, but the more closely you supervise and confine in the beginning, and the closer to "errorless" you can make it (there will ALWAYS be the occasional accident, say nothing, just clean it up and move on, trying not to let it happen again) the faster your puppy will be reliably potty trained.

Put your focus on the litter box training. ALL puppies learn to go outside eventually on their own when you take them outside. You just have to give them a "Good dog!" And a happy face when they do it, and before long, they will be doing it regularly. What you are really teaching them is that there are "OK" places to go, (their box or outdoors) and everyplace else is "not OK". You VERY SLOWLY expand the "not OK" territory as they show they can handle it. Any mistakes show that you've allowed too much freedom too soon, and you need to tighten things up again.

So, for some reason, it's only letting me upload one photo at a time. Here was Kodi's "bedroom".


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Here was Kodi’s bedroom...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Here was the one the girls both used. (The difference being, neither of them slept in here, so they didn’t need a crate)...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

And this was Panda’s “Puppy Jail”, when she needed retraining after her UTI...


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## Nora (Feb 12, 2019)

Thank you for your response. 

Question: If I use a playpen that is just big enough for a bed and wee wee pad, then how can the puppy move around and play in that playpen? It seems that the puppy will sit in its own poop or pee!! Doesn't the pen have to be big enough for the puppy to move around a bit too??


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## Nora (Feb 12, 2019)

Also, I wanted to add that I am using a nylon, round, pop up pen, rather than a wired pen. I hope that is OK too.


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

Nora said:


> Also, I wanted to add that I am using a nylon, round, pop up pen, rather than a wired pen. I hope that is OK too.


I actually used something like that for my Zumba. It was the Zamba Pet Folding Pen from Chewy. We had to stay longer than planned in NC after we got her because of a hurricane and my husband ended up in ICU. Good thing I had that playpen with me. I continued to use it at home, in the sewing room - - we had her regular play pen set-up, copying how Karen did it with Kodi, in the other side of the house. Though I preferred the latter because it gave her more room, the round nylon playpen worked. She had her sleeping area, where I had put her bed for sleeping. About a 1/3 of the way around I had her potty box and another 1/3 around I had her water and food bowl. Toys were between the water bowl and her bed. I felt the UgoDog took up too much room in that set-up, so eventually I replaced with the Blyss. This set-up worked well until she got bite-y. Since she was chewing up the playpen, I took it down.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Nora said:


> Thank you for your response.
> 
> Question: If I use a playpen that is just big enough for a bed and wee wee pad, then how can the puppy move around and play in that playpen? It seems that the puppy will sit in its own poop or pee!! Doesn't the pen have to be big enough for the puppy to move around a bit too??


This is JUST for potty training, and should be the focus of your time. They should not sit in their poop or pee, because you should clean it up as it happens. If you have to leave them for a longer period, then you will have to leave them in a larger set up, more like the top one, but unless they are already pretty well started, with a good understanding of where to potty, you are going to have to expect that there WILL be accidents to pick up, and they very well may step in them, even if there is more space.

But that's true even if you are doing all outdoor training. Where would you leave tho puppy when you were not able to watch it? What would you expect to happen in that space?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Nora said:


> Also, I wanted to add that I am using a nylon, round, pop up pen, rather than a wired pen. I hope that is OK too.


Not a great idea. Puppies can easily knock those over and chew or scratch their way out.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Find another trainer. That one doesn't understand dogs very well. There is no reasoning on their part. It's all habit. We have a house full of Havanese that will use either indoor system, or outside.

Little puppies have to go Often. If they have an indoor option, it gives you time to have a life outside of raising a puppy.

The people who have the most indoor accidents, which becomes a habit you don't want to have to train out of, are people who only want their small dog to go outside.


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## Nora (Feb 12, 2019)

Makes sense. Should I train first on the inside pad and train after that is done to go outside?? Or can I train both inside and outside at the same time?

My pen is nylon. Will I have a problem with the puppy biting the pen and tearing it?


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## LUVmyHava (Apr 16, 2019)

Kojo has suddenly decided he does not like tray with pad (never liked the grate). So lays on soft clean pee pad as bed and pees anywhere else in playpen including his nice bed and very close to food and water. Only needs a couple of inches of free space. He is doing much better pooping outside but very unpredictable with pee. Acts like he's finished outside after 30 minutes of mostly sniffing yard and playing fetch. The second he's inside house pees on floor before I get there. So frustrating. So I have started carrying him in straight to playpen. Then pees on plastic tarp, not peepad.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Nora said:


> A dog trainer I recently contacted told me that he will not do indoor potty training because he does not believe it works successfully. By this He means that it is not reliable and the dog only uses an indoor potty 60% of the time. Can someone comment on their experiences with this potty method? Thank you.


Your trainer doesn't know how to do indoor potty training. Patti is 1.5 years old and reliably uses a potty tray. We have a second home and she uses the potty tray there, as well as, at our primary home. In fact, she prefers to use the potty tray over going outside, although she does potty outside as well. Patti instinctlively used the potty tray when she was 8 weeks old, without any encouragement. In the beginning we set up her ex-pen in a family-kitchen area. This one area of the house was blocked off. She could go back and forth from the ex-pen into this one room. Patti would go from the family-kitchen area into her ex-pen to potty. There were a couple of accidents but in the beginning we always had eyes on her if she was out running around loose - in the family-kitchen room - and quickly picked her up and put her on the potty tray. Patti was reliability potty trained to this one room almost immediately. After she was reliable in that one room, I started training her how to find the potty tray room by room. Until she was 10 months old, she did not have the run of the whole house. At that point, I knew she was reliable.

The key is you must start early, when they're only weeks old and always have eyes on them when they are out of the ex-pen, so they don't run off and pee in places you don't know about. We have a small place in the Rockies and no yard, requiring us to walk Patti. It's SUPER nice not to have to walk her four or five times a day, or when it's storming or in the middle of the night - unless we want to. We can go out for the day or evening and not worry about her having to go outside to do her job.

You can't do both at the same time - outdoor potty train and indoor potty train. Stick with the indoor potty training if that's what you want to do. That doesn't mean you don't take them outside and let them play, pee and poop. You just don't reward them for doing it outside until they're potty trained inside.


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## Nora (Feb 12, 2019)

Thank you. I hope it works well for me as well. My pup is about 10 weeks now and still with the breeder. I will pick up soon, but we have a hurricane now and I must wait another week. I am not sure if the breeder is doing wee wee pad training.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Nora said:


> Makes sense. Should I train first on the inside pad and train after that is done to go outside?? Or can I train both inside and outside at the same time?
> 
> My pen is nylon. Will I have a problem with the puppy biting the pen and tearing it?


It's good to have inside down good enough that it doesn't require treats. Our system doesn't use treats at all, to start with, but we start them at three weeks.

Once they are completely reliable inside, use the same command outside, but reward with a treat. They will start holding it, waiting to go outside for the reward.

They will always go outside, if out there long enough anyway, but it's nice that they can go on command too.


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## lauramcmann1221 (Mar 1, 2019)

*thanks for your information*



Nora said:


> Also, I wanted to add that I am using a nylon, round, pop up pen, rather than a wired pen. I hope that is OK too.


Your sharing is great, thanks. Karen, Kodi, Pixel, and Panda are lovely.


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## Bongo (Jun 1, 2019)

krandall said:


> Here was the one the girls both used. (The difference being, neither of them slept in here, so they didn't need a crate)...


Hi Karen, in the second picture you posted, what do you have on your floor, on top of your hardwood flooring?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Bongo said:


> Hi Karen, in the second picture you posted, what do you have on your floor, on top of your hardwood flooring?


It's a vinyl floor remnant from Home Depot. In the beginning we used some rolled marine sail cloth from Joann fabric. This is waterproof, but soft enough that puppy teeth can get hold of it and pull it up, making a mess!!! The floor vinlyl can't be moved once it's down with the pen on top of it! It has now lived through three puppies and is in perfect condition! It has been rolled up and stored in the basement between puppies. That's where it is again now!

(Plus it looks pretty nice, when you have to have it in your living space for at least 8 months!) when we took it up, our hardwood floor still looked pristine underneath.


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## Geezer (Dec 2, 2018)

We spend 3-4 months a year on a boat where going outdoors is almost impossible. At home, Tina uses pee pads in the shower or goes outside. On the boat she always uses the pads unless we are ashore. To date, she has never made a mistake. Maybe the dog trainer is not as good a trainer as he thinks he is.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I have heard trainers say this before and I think there is bias because people often seek out trainers for potty training issues. It starts to become easy to blame indoor potty instead of recognizing the difference in the physical development of a small dog, the time it can take, and the fact that there isn’t nearly as much accessible information on indoor training so it’s easy for new owners to make mistakes. 

For me the red flag is the refusal to try something different. It signals a lack of flexibility in thinking -that trainer isn’t looking for what will work best for you and your puppy, just in repeating what he’s done before. A good trainer is actively reading you and the puppy and adapting, problem solving, breaking down behavior and steps based on goals.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

@EvaElizabeth .... I agree, I think indoor house training is a rather new idea that dog trainers don't have experience doing. All dogs aren't probably a good fit for indoor house training such as large dogs. However, I read about two large poodles who were trained to use grass turf on a houseboat. :smile2: Havanese MIGHT be easier to train because they are so smart. :wink2:

The KEY is starting them as young puppies, preferably as early as Tom King does with his. Confining and Sticking with it.

OTOH ... there's is a lot of resistance to indoor house breaking and dog trainers probably aren't keen on the idea.


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## Bongo (Jun 1, 2019)

krandall said:


> Here was the one the girls both used. (The difference being, neither of them slept in here, so they didn't need a crate)...


Hi Karen, one more question on your second picture - can you please share which brand expen this is? And I think I may have read in another post somewhere that you also have a wooden one that you use (maybe)? If I'm not mistaken, would you mind sharing that one as well?

Thank you so much!


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Bongo said:


> Hi Karen, one more question on your second picture - can you please share which brand expen this is? And I think I may have read in another post somewhere that you also have a wooden one that you use (maybe)? If I'm not mistaken, would you mind sharing that one as well?
> 
> Thank you so much!


I believe the wooden crates you've seen on this website are made by Richell. Below are three types and three different views of a Richell Flip Crate, plus a Six Panel Gate, Ex-Pen or Crate and a Expandable Crate. I own two of Richell's (numerous) products: The 6-Panel Gate/Ex-Pen and the Expandable Crate. I'm not saying these are the best ... it's just what I happened to have chosen. There is an overwhelming amount of different options and choices on Amazon and the Internet.

I would suggest: whatever you get the height should be almost 3feet. These little dogs are able to jump 2 feet standing still and are climbers. An ex-pen that's five to six feet long ... IMO works best, as you will want more room as the puppy grows. All or the majority of these ex-pens need to sit next to a wall or something that provides stability along the bottom edge on at least one side, because they're light weight and can be easily moved around by a playful puppy.

I'm use a Mac OS and for some reason when I post pictures, they do not open on this website. However, you can click the links below and see the photos of the Richell products mentioned above.

*One more thing ... you'll probably have this up for an extended period of time. I took my down at 10-months. I probably could have taken it down a little earlier but it's useful when you need a TIME OUT. I, also, had rooms gated off so I could watch her. She didn't not have the run of the house until 10 months, and even then it wasn't the whole house. Patti had her toys, food, water, bed and potty tray in the ex-pen and she freely wondered in and out for some time after she became reliable. When I took it down I left the potty tray food and water in the same location, until I transitioned her from that area.*


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Bongo said:


> Hi Karen, one more question on your second picture - can you please share which brand expen this is? And I think I may have read in another post somewhere that you also have a wooden one that you use (maybe)? If I'm not mistaken, would you mind sharing that one as well?
> 
> Thank you so much!


We're camping ATM, and our wifi connection is a bit weak. For some reason, when ai go onto Amazon, I can see similar pens, bu t I can't get the link. I also know a friend recently bought one from Petco. If you search for tubular steel expen, you should find them.

I have never had one of the fancy wooden ones, though I drool over them. I am pretty sure the brand on those is Richell.


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## Bongo (Jun 1, 2019)

Mikki said:


> ...There is an overwhelming amount of different options and choices on Amazon and the Internet.
> 
> I would suggest: whatever you get the height should be almost 3feet. These little dogs are able to jump 2 feet standing still and are climbers. An ex-pen that's five to six feet long ... IMO works best, as you will want more room as the puppy grows. All or the majority of these ex-pens need to sit next to a wall or something that provides stability along the bottom edge on at least one side, because they're light weight and can be easily moved around by a playful puppy.


There ARE a ton of options, and I research everything to death, so it gets overwhelming, especially when there are mixed reviews on so many products. Thank you for the response. I just got back from PetSmart, just looking, not expecting to buy anything, and they had 2 Richell products left on clearance for $75 each (the expandable crate, and the 3-in-1 gate). At that price, I snatched them both up (I need a crate and a gate), but, the gate is the small and it's only 20" high so will probably return that one. The expandable crate is also the Small, at 24" high, but I figure at that price, I could add the wire top and still spend significantly less than the Medium (if I decide to stick with this style).

Whether I stick w/this or not - will most puppies just chew on the wood and destroy it anyway, or did you not experience that?

Thanks!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Honestly, I only have one 30” expen, and rarely use that one because it’s heavy to drag around. While it’s true that any of my dogs COULD jump over a 24” expen, the fact is, not one of them ever challenge it, and never have. We even use this height when we are camping. No, we certainly never leave them unsupervised outdoors with this, but again, they COULD get out if they wanted, and they never try.

One thing to keep in mind is that puppies rarely jump out of expens anyway. If they are bent on escape, they typically are climbers. And if they can climb to the top of a 24” pen, they can climb to the top of a 48” pen. When they get to the top, they stand a MUCH bigger chance of hurting themselves jumping or falling off the other side. If you have an escape artist, IMO, you are much better off crating them, getting a cover for the expen, or gating them in a room with a gate that they can’t climb.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Shama chewed on the wooden dowels of her ex pen when she was little, but she outgrew that behavior quickly. She never tried to get out of her 24-inch high ex pen. We got a cover but never used it.

Here's a link to some photos of Shama's set-up:

https://www.havaneseforum.com/8-puppy-area/122313-baby-loves-her-ex-pen.html


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Bongo said:


> There ARE a ton of options, and I research everything to death, so it gets overwhelming, especially when there are mixed reviews on so many products. Thank you for the response. I just got back from PetSmart, just looking, not expecting to buy anything, and they had 2 Richell products left on clearance for $75 each (the expandable crate, and the 3-in-1 gate). At that price, I snatched them both up (I need a crate and a gate), but, the gate is the small and it's only 20" high so will probably return that one. The expandable crate is also the Small, at 24" high, but I figure at that price, I could add the wire top and still spend significantly less than the Medium (if I decide to stick with this style).
> 
> Whether I stick w/this or not - will most puppies just chew on the wood and destroy it anyway, or did you not experience that?
> 
> Thanks!


Patti gnawed a little on the metal and there were a few teeth marks in one area of the wood, but she wasn't interested in chewing on it.

What you got will work for many months and maybe all you need. 20-24 inch gates are easier to walk over and I have one or more these I used to block a hallway or entrance to a room. In that situation, Patti was not left alone, it was a physical barrier to keep her close where I had eyes on her. She how did, however, jump that gate because she was excited and motivated to get to the other side. :surprise: But, it was not a on-going problem since she wasn't left alone in that area. I had to block free standing gates with heavy books or other weights to keep Patti from pushing they away from the doorway and go exploring.

I have the Small 24-inch Richell Expandable Crate that I used in a small condo in a vacation home when she was 4 and 5 months old and it worked at the age. I didn't have enough room for anything larger. It, also, has a floor that provides stability and doesn't need to be set against a wall. As she grew and got longer, and taller when standing on her hind legs, I'm sure she would have climbed out or jumped out of that one. I believe, Richell makes tops for those. Patti is a regular size Havanese 12-14lbs. Many Havanese are very small which makes a difference in how much space they take up.

The other Richell I had was was the 6-Panel Expandable Crate or Gate. It is 31.5 inches high and about 5.5 feet long & 2.5+ feet wide. Patti climbed on the top of a hard sided sleeping crate and tried to climb over the top. I removed the sleeping crate and that solved that issue. The slats don't allow any place for a dog to get their footing to climb out. This set up worked for me but it's really needs to be next to a wall or some type of barrier on both sides for stability.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Here was my set up with the Richell 6-Panel Expandable Crate (Ex-Pen) or Gate. 

Our family hangs out in a kitchen-family room area. There are two entrances into this room. The door to the ex-pen opened into this room and blocks one entrance. We gated the second entrance, confining Patti to this room allowing her play and roam around when the ex-pen door was opened.

The ex-pen has supported along the wall on one side, supported by an area rug along the edge on the other side and one end sat against another wall.

I removed the hard-sided sleeping crate inside the ex-pen, because Patti climbed on top and was testing her limits to the top. I replaced this with a dog bed, later a blanket because she preferred sleeping on the tile floor, probably because it was cooler. Initially, the potty tray was Grass Turf ... which I quickly got rid of because of the smell. This was the initial set up. Later there was numerous toys inside. This was Patti's safe place. When she got a new toy or treat, she immediately took it "to her room." :smile2:

Wow! my pics opened. I wonder what I did differently? Hummmm!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

My puppy could jump over the 24” expen but he never tried when it was set up away from other furniture. DD has played lots of jumping games with him since he was little, but he’s not a climber. As he got older and we expanded his area, he became very skilled at using other furniture to help him jump out of the expen. I started setting it up in unusual ways to prevent this, but I didn’t have to do it for very long. Once he was potty trained in our family room I arranged the expen as a long barrier between two rooms of our open floor plan. 

You’ll probably want a permanent setup of some kind, but I think it’s easier if you start out flexible. I moved my furniture around a couple of times, pushing my sofas up against a wall in a big room, which looked pretty terrible. It was just temporary, though, and it was worth it to me to prevent him from jumping off the back of the sofas and peeing back there. I originally thought his “area” would be the mudroom, and I had a whole crate setup and everything. In the end it wasn’t a good fit because there isn’t a window, and it’s too out of the way.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I also bought an extra tall wood freestanding divider. I modified it by taking the pieces apart and turning them on their sides to use in various places. They’re lower than my ex pen, maybe 20-22” by 36”. I use one piece permanently in the doorway to the carpeted stairs and he has never tried to jump over it. He did try to wriggle underneath it, though!


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

@EvaElizabeth ... Like your dog .... Patti uses furniture to get places. I have counter top stools in the kitchen which are 24 inches tall. Sitting on the floor she has jumped on top of those stools, from there it was the kitchen counter top. That's pretty amazing. She can jump further with a running start. Patti is more of a jumper than climber but I worried about her getting over a three foot yard fence and installed a four-foot chain link. We live on an acreage and I didn't want a wood fence we couldn't see out of.

We still have two gates up in our house. One blocks off the teenage grandsons area. If motivated enough she could get over that one. It's only about 20 inches tall, so it easy to step over. Even if boys remember to put their expensive earbuds and other digital items on their desk (not on the floor or couch) she is very curious and quick - jumps up on the chairs for a look see. Before you know it - she's escaped with a prize find. After replacing some eye glasses and a couple of sets of ear buds .... EVERYONE is more watchful about they leave laying around.

Patti is a little over 1.5 years, a sweet, clownish & funny dog who has calmed down a lot but I'll be glad when she's less puppy-like and stops investigating.


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## Bongo (Jun 1, 2019)

krandall said:


> This is JUST for potty training, and should be the focus of your time. They should not sit in their poop or pee, because you should clean it up as it happens. If you have to leave them for a longer period, then you will have to leave them in a larger set up, more like the top one, but unless they are already pretty well started, with a good understanding of where to potty, you are going to have to expect that there WILL be accidents to pick up, and they very well may step in them, even if there is more space.


Ok, I thought I had this down, but I'm confused.
For my set-up, I have a 2x5 pen in the living room. There is a 24" wire crate in one end of it where puppy sleeps (night-time as well as daytime naps). There is a potty tray in the opposite end from the crate, and a small space between tray and crate for food/water, or just sitting with a toy (or sleeping somewhere colder than the fluffy warm crate pad). So my questions are:
1.	Between puppy sleep and potty training, how much time per day would you say a 9 or 10 wk old puppy will spend in this pen?
2.	Is this pen ok for short periods away when I'm home but can't supervise her 100% (I thought that was the idea)? Or should she go to a larger ex-pen in that case? What constitutes 'short' vs. 'long' periods where the larger ex-pen is required?
3.	I always leave the crate door open right now, so puppy can go on the tray when she needs to, if I'm not awake or if I'm not around when she first wakes up from a nap. This is easier on me and my sleep, but does it make potty training harder, if I'm not always sure exactly if/when she has gone? And should I be closing her back in the crate during the day, if she doesn't go on command (after a nap for example), even though I haven't been closing the crate door at all to date? We did great on day 1 when I felt like that was all we did - watch her and put her on her tray every 30 mins. But the last couple days I've been more focused on other things and socializing, and we definitely haven't done as well, we've had some accidents - both outside the pen, and inside the pen, next to the tray. I know some accidents will happen, but I also feel like my timing is off, or I'm not fully understanding how to go about this. What does an indoor potty training routine look like for a 9wk old puppy? Do I go back to day 1 and just really stay on it every 30 mins until I see more consistency? Do I move food and water into the crate so there is literally no space except for crate and tray?

Thank you!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

The goal should be "errorless" potty training. Or as close to that as you can accomplish. No pity training ones off without a hitch, so don't beat yourself up over the occasional miss, but TRY to avoid them.

There is no clear answer to your above questions because every puppy is different and every puppy comes with a different set of skills. It's like saying "when should my kid be potty trained?" Some precocious children are reliable by 18 months, but EXTREMELY few. Some are not reliable by 5 years. But EXTREMELY few. The vast majority are in between. 

Puppies are reliable when they are developmentally ready, AND when the owners have done the job of making it CLAEAR to them where they are NOT supposed to potty by not allowing them to develop bad habits. Give them no more space than you are quite sure they will be successful in. Err on the side of caution. Expand unsupervised territory VERY slowly.

My puppies were all fine in a normal size expen with a litter box as soon as they came home. BUT they had all been well trained by their breeders. Panda had a short set-back in that after a UTI, but a short period of closer confinement solved that. MANY puppies that come from breeders who do not put this emphasis on potty skills take closer confinement and supervision for longer in the beginning. 

I would not allow ANY puppy under 16-20 weeks MORE unsupervised space than this. They just don't need it. And it is asking for accidents. And the more accidents, the longer potty training takes. (and the longer you will need to confine and supervise) And really, you should be spending A LOT of time supervising, playing with and training a puppy in its first 6 months. Between that and their need for sleep, because they ARE babies, the time spent in their expen really should not be onerous.


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## Bongo (Jun 1, 2019)

krandall said:


> The goal should be "errorless" potty training. Or as close to that as you can accomplish. No pity training ones off without a hitch, so don't beat yourself up over the occasional miss, but TRY to avoid them.
> 
> There is no clear answer to your above questions because every puppy is different and every puppy comes with a different set of skills. It's like saying "when should my kid be potty trained?" Some precocious children are reliable by 18 months, but EXTREMELY few. Some are not reliable by 5 years. But EXTREMELY few. The vast majority are in between.
> 
> I would not allow ANY puppy under 16-20 weeks MORE unsupervised space than this. They just don't need it. And it is asking for accidents. And the more accidents, the longer potty training takes. (and the longer you will need to confine and supervise) And really, you should be spending A LOT of time supervising, playing with and training a puppy in its first 6 months. Between that and their need for sleep, because they ARE babies, the time spent in their expen really should not be onerous.


OK, this makes sense, especially since coincidentally, I did have one human child potty trained at 18 months, and the other at 5+ years. Maybe I'm just struggling because I'm a very scheduled person, but for the first two weeks we've had her, I've been watching cues, and doing things willy nilly as opposed to following a very specific schedule. For example, I've been 'loose' about feeding times, because I'm portioning meals and using them for training (with plenty of rest in between), instead of feeding 3x per day always at the same time and place. I felt ok doing this initially since my breeder had said she would typically have a big breakfast and then free feed the rest of the day (and she didn't have issues with overeating). So I was making sure she got a good breakfast and then train/feeding the rest of the day. Since my feeding schedule is not regular, I don't expect my potty schedule to be either, but as of today, I'm starting regular meals at regular times, and reserving less for less frequent training in between.

To date, I was not watching the clock and putting her on the potty tray at specific times either. With frequent play, eat, train, sleep, I just figure she'll need to go all the time so I just keep watching for cues and going with the flow. When she does start circling and sniffing, she is not seeking out her tray. I always just put her on the tray at that point, otherwise I think she'd go anywhere but the tray. That interrupts her enough that I need to give her more time to actually go on the tray once enclosed in the pen. Sometimes she'll go within 15 mins (then I praise and take her out), sometimes she won't (I take her out anyway after 15 mins and watch like a hawk, and keep trying to get her back on the tray whenever she sniffs and circles again). But not seeking out her tray - is this the developmentally ready part, and she'll start doing this in time when she's ready? Or is it because I haven't been good about doing this at specific times and therefore there is no routine for her to know what's expected? Or both? Is it a bad idea to try switching to pellets at this point, to see if that smell attracts her more than my scented pee pads?

As for mornings - I don't feel confident about how to establish potty routine at that time either, because with access to her tray all night, she just goes when she needs to. So I greet her and try to look for a 'recent' potty when I first come down, to see if she's gone already, but I can't really tell how long it's been if I haven't seen her go. So do I go through the potty routine motions anyway? If so, how do I do that? Do I pick her up to say hi, and then put her back down and ask for potty and walk away so she can do her thing? Do I leave her until I see her go and THEN take her out to say hi? Do I pick her up and take her to a different location and try there (i.e. kitchen potty vs. living room sleeping pen), so that there's some kind of distinction/clarity about what's expected, and to give her a break from the pen after having been in it all night? If I were outdoor training, I'd obviously just take her out and that would become the routine. But since we're indoor training, and the tray is right there in her sleeping pen all the time (with crate door open), I don't feel like I'm establishing any routine, so appreciate your input on how to make sure i'm creating and sticking to routine w/indoor potty.

Also, in the early morning - she seems to always poop around 5am and then starts crying (or maybe she's crying first because she doesn't' want to poop in the same place as her potty tray, and then finally giving up and going on it anyway?). Initially, I ignored her thinking she wanted attention, and I didn't come down to clean up the poop until I woke up at 6:30 (she did quiet down again after the 5am poop when I was doing this). But then I started going down at 5am when I heard her crying, thinking that she's not doing it for attention, but is maybe just stressed about not wanting to get dirty, step in it, and take that back into her crate with her (and I'd prefer not to clean up stepped in poop either). So I've been cleaning it up and then going back to bed for a little longer. What do you recommend in this situation? I don't want to ignore her cries if she's stressed, but I don't want to start bad habits either.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

@Bingo .... Here's my suggestion and what I ended up doing but first will say: The first six - nine months - if you're doing a good job you will be an Exhausted Puppy Mom, especially if you've not had a puppy for a while or never had one.

At this point, don't worry so much about trying to balance treats with food intake. Feed your little one three times a day, at regular times. Focus giving treats when you see him/her - Do His Job! Pee or Poop on the potty tray. If you're indoor housebreaking don't praise if when he pees or poops outside. Just let him play and go as needed.

Don't try to time or worry about when the puppy goes pee or poop. Let the puppy decide when he wants to go potty on the potty tray - and again when you see it happen *Have a Party! - Good Job! eace: Give a Treat! * Puppies pee and poop all-the-time.

As the puppy matures they will go less frequently and establish a time they want - To Go. If you're indoor housing breaking it really doesn't make any difference.

Later - after they're indoor house broken - you can might want to train the dog to pee or poop on demand. I have not felt the need to do this. Although, if we are going somewhere in the car I might encourage Patti to ... *Do Your Job!* She knows that term and will sometimes squat for me. If it's a long trip I'm going to take her out of the car and walk her. If it's a short trip in town, she can hold her pee or poop.

When you don't have eyes on the dog, he should be confined.

Limit the dog to one room where you have the ex-pen and to an area where you can have eyes on him when he's out of the ex-pen playing. You want the area small enough so the puppy can find their way back to the potty tray inside the ex-pen.

I suggest using a tray with a grid top such as UgoDog, Byliss or Richells. You can use a potty pad or pellets. Patti didn't care what was inside the potty tray. If you switch to something new, rub their pee smell onto the potty tray.

You don't need to worry about hurrying to clean up poop off the potty tray. But, you will want to keep it picked up and not let it collect.

Your dog is crying because he's awake and want's you. Not because he's having an issue about wether or not to do his job on the potty tray. All dogs need to learn to comfort themselves because you cannot be with them 24/7. It's hard to hear them cry but it's OK to leave the puppy alone until you get up...if you can sleep through it. :smile2:

Very young puppies just suddenly squat and don't sniff around or do circles. At least, that was my experience. You have to keep a watchful eye and catch them if they start to do that on the floor.

Hope this helps.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Oh my! That's a LOT of questions... and (it sounds) anxiety!!! I think one thing you need to do is relax!!! Puppies pick up on your emotional state. So take a deep breath. This will all work out, I promise!!! 



Bongo said:


> OK, this makes sense, especially since coincidentally, I did have one human child potty trained at 18 months, and the other at 5+ years. Maybe I'm just struggling because I'm a very scheduled person, but for the first two weeks we've had her, I've been watching cues, and doing things willy nilly as opposed to following a very specific schedule. For example, I've been 'loose' about feeding times, because I'm portioning meals and using them for training (with plenty of rest in between), instead of feeding 3x per day always at the same time and place. I felt ok doing this initially since my breeder had said she would typically have a big breakfast and then free feed the rest of the day (and she didn't have issues with overeating). So I was making sure she got a good breakfast and then train/feeding the rest of the day. Since my feeding schedule is not regular, I don't expect my potty schedule to be either, but as of today, I'm starting regular meals at regular times, and reserving less for less frequent training in between.
> 
> To date, I was not watching the clock and putting her on the potty tray at specific times either. With frequent play, eat, train, sleep, I just figure she'll need to go all the time so I just keep watching for cues and going with the flow. When she does start circling and sniffing, she is not seeking out her tray. I always just put her on the tray at that point, otherwise I think she'd go anywhere but the tray. That interrupts her enough that I need to give her more time to actually go on the tray once enclosed in the pen. Sometimes she'll go within 15 mins (then I praise and take her out), sometimes she won't (I take her out anyway after 15 mins and watch like a hawk, and keep trying to get her back on the tray whenever she sniffs and circles again). But not seeking out her tray - is this the developmentally ready part, and she'll start doing this in time when she's ready? Or is it because I haven't been good about doing this at specific times and therefore there is no routine for her to know what's expected? Or both? Is it a bad idea to try switching to pellets at this point, to see if that smell attracts her more than my scented pee pads?
> 
> ...


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## Bongo (Jun 1, 2019)

Mikki said:


> @Bingo .... Here's my suggestion and what I ended up doing but first will say: The first six - nine months - if you're doing a good job you will be an Exhausted Puppy Mom, especially if you've not had a puppy for a while or never had one.
> 
> At this point, don't worry so much about trying to balance treats with food intake.
> Don't try to time or worry about when the puppy goes pee or poop.
> ...


I've paraphrased your response, but yes! All of this! Thank you, Mikki, this is very helpful! I am exhausted, but maybe more from worrying than anything else! I'm a total newbie at this - never had a dog or a puppy before, so I'm trying hard to do everything 'right' and just need to figure out what works for us. I'm using a Blyss grated tray, as well as another brand that has raised sides but is also grated. I have the Richell 2x5 pen in the living room (with room for crate and potty tray only). This opens into our gated living room for when we take her out and play. This is where most of the accidents have happened - in the roughly 7x9 foot space outside the Richell pen. She does have to get through a pretty small opening to get to the tray that's right inside the Richell door, so I'll experiment with having another one in the more open space with us.

Next week I go back to work again after 2 weeks off, but I work from home, so I plan to have her in the ex-pen in my office, right next to me. Right now it's a big enough space that there is plenty of room for accidents in there, but I don't want to confine her to a tiny pen the entire time I'm working. I will take her out at lunch, and play and train w/her on short breaks in between as I can, but I won't have eyes on 100% even though she's right next to me, so that's the plan for now and we'll see how it goes.

I appreciate all the input! I will try to worry a bit less and enjoy her more! Thank you so much!


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## Bongo (Jun 1, 2019)

krandall said:


> Oh my! That's a LOT of questions... and (it sounds) anxiety!!! I think one thing you need to do is relax!!! Puppies pick up on your emotional state. So take a deep breath. This will all work out, I promise!!!


Yes, I'd say you're exactly right! Thank you for the support, I do need to relax a bit more and just figure out what works for us.



krandall said:


> It sounds like she is being quite reliable about using her pad in the ex pen, yes? What happens if you give her a little more space to play with you, NEAR the expen, so that she can easily get back to it if she needs to? She may surprise you and run back and use it when she needs to. We don't always "potty on schedule" either. We go when we need to go. What you want to teach her is WHERE to go and where NOT to go.


She's pretty reliable in her pen, yes. Sometimes she'll go in the teeny tiny space on the floor next to the grated tray, but mostly she goes on the tray. When we play, we take her out of the pen, into our gated living room area, right next to her pen. I'm using the wooden Richell pen, with a grated tray right inside the door, but she does have to get through a small door to get to it, so I may experiment with another tray in the living room that's more accessible, and/or make the living room space we've been using a little smaller.

Thank you for the advice, about pellets and mornings as well, I appreciate it. I am new to all this and just trying to figure things out, but relaxing is probably the best advice you could give


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Bongo said:


> I've paraphrased your response, but yes! All of this! Thank you, Mikki, this is very helpful! I am exhausted, but maybe more from worrying than anything else! I'm a total newbie at this - never had a dog or a puppy before, so I'm trying hard to do everything 'right' and just need to figure out what works for us. I'm using a Blyss grated tray, as well as another brand that has raised sides but is also grated. I have the Richell 2x5 pen in the living room (with room for crate and potty tray only). This opens into our gated living room for when we take her out and play. This is where most of the accidents have happened - in the roughly 7x9 foot space outside the Richell pen. She does have to get through a pretty small opening to get to the tray that's right inside the Richell door, so I'll experiment with having another one in the more open space with us.
> 
> Next week I go back to work again after 2 weeks off, but I work from home, so I plan to have her in the ex-pen in my office, right next to me. Right now it's a big enough space that there is plenty of room for accidents in there, but I don't want to confine her to a tiny pen the entire time I'm working. I will take her out at lunch, and play and train w/her on short breaks in between as I can, but I won't have eyes on 100% even though she's right next to me, so that's the plan for now and we'll see how it goes.
> 
> I appreciate all the input! I will try to worry a bit less and enjoy her more! Thank you so much!


I would STILL keep her in the expen if you can't keep 100% of your attention on her. Every accident she has makes it that much harder to train her. And in an office, it is all too easy for her to get at wires and other dangerous stuff. A puppy of an acquaintance was just put to sleep last week after more than a week in the hospital after chewing wires under a desk. They really need 100% supervision or confinement at this age.

But you are COMPLETELY right about the worry less and enjoy more! Being in her expen will NOT harm her, even if she may fuss. It will keep her safe and you sane!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Bongo said:


> Yes, I'd say you're exactly right! Thank you for the support, I do need to relax a bit more and just figure out what works for us.
> 
> She's pretty reliable in her pen, yes. Sometimes she'll go in the teeny tiny space on the floor next to the grated tray, but mostly she goes on the tray. When we play, we take her out of the pen, into our gated living room area, right next to her pen. I'm using the wooden Richell pen, with a grated tray right inside the door, but she does have to get through a small door to get to it, so I may experiment with another tray in the living room that's more accessible, and/or make the living room space we've been using a little smaller.
> 
> Thank you for the advice, about pellets and mornings as well, I appreciate it. I am new to all this and just trying to figure things out, but relaxing is probably the best advice you could give


You WILL figure it out! It will be fine! But yes, I'd have another try out in the play area while she is out there. Just like little kids, they often realize ALMOST too late that "I've gotta go NOW!!!"


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

@Bingo .. A few ideas on what I did...

Patti's ex-pen was in a family-kitchen area. It's a place the family hangs out and spends quit a bit of time. The ex-pen door was opened and Patti moved inside and outside of the ex-pen to play when someone had eyes on her. She pretty quickly learned to go back inside the ex-pen to potty. The few times she squatted, she was caught and placed on the potty tray where she was told: Do Your Job! and given a treat. Patti learned quickly to go back into the ex-pen to pee or poop. You need turn this into a habit and don't become overly confident your puppy is trained until he's shown for a couple of months that he is 100% consistent.

PATIENCE!!! PAYS OFF.

After Patti was relatively consistent in one area of the home, I placed another potty tray in our TV room. Gated this small room off and put a leash on Patti. Patti would play, I had control and eyes on her. Dogs typically will not pee or poop in an area where they lay or play. About every 20-30 minutes I'd walk Patti over to the potty tray, say- Do Your Job - made her stand on the tray and waited for three minutes. Many times she would pee or poop. If she didn't I'd wait a little while and take her back to the potty tray. After about two weeks I took off the leash and Patti on her own go to the potty tray in the TV room.

After that room I took her into our bedroom and did the same thing over.

She was probably 10-months before I took down gates and let her the run of a few rooms in the house.

While you're working, if your puppy is out of the ex-pen I would put a leash on him and keep him close. He'll become potty trained quicker if you do not allow accidents to happen ... or catch them quickly.


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## Bongo (Jun 1, 2019)

krandall said:


> I would STILL keep her in the expen if you can't keep 100% of your attention on her. Every accident she has makes it that much harder to train her. And in an office, it is all too easy for her to get at wires and other dangerous stuff. A puppy of an acquaintance was just put to sleep last week after more than a week in the hospital after chewing wires under a desk. They really need 100% supervision or confinement at this age.
> 
> But you are COMPLETELY right about the worry less and enjoy more! Being in her expen will NOT harm her, even if she may fuss. It will keep her safe and you sane!


Yes, she's always in an ex-pen or gated area of some sort. When I'm working, she'll be in an ex-pen large enough to play in (safe and away from office wires/papers/etc.), but larger than just the crate and tray set-up in our living room that we use for sleeping. So sorry to hear about the poor puppy in the hospital...


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

I did, and still do, keep Zumba in her crate during the night. In that way, I have no doubt when her morning poop and pee is done. Dont’ know if that is something you are against, but you may want to try. She goes into the crate at night, with a treat, and I cover it up. She sleeps quite well in that darkness.

Zumba also went through that period where she would not pee and poop in the same poop tray. Nor would she pee in a tray that had already been peed on. Drove me crazy for awhile till I figured out what was going on, since she would relieve herself right besides the tray rather than go on a tray that was “dirty”. I went and got a second tray, kept them just a bit apart, and, along with rewarding her when she went on the tray, it got considerably better. Eventually she did get to the point where she will pee and poop on top of the same tray, but it was months before she stopped being so “refined”.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Patti doesn't mind peeing and pooping on a USED tray. Except if overly used and there's more than two piles of poop then she'll go beside the tray. I do frequently clean the trays but there's been a few times, time got away from me and I forgot. :smile2: Patti now mostly goes outdoors unless the weather's bad or she's confined to the house. 

One issue mentioned is the early morning hours a puppy wakes up. Patti wants me up no later than 6:15 a.m. Since the time changed, she's still been on day-light-savings time and that time has been 5:15 a.m. My once-up-on-time Dairy Farm-Boy Husband had to get up at 4 a.m. to milk cows growing up. He's never gotten over early morning rising and early to bed, so we are early morning risers which helps with this dog. I'd sleep later but since she sleeps with us it's hard to ignore her. :crying:


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

Mikki said:


> Patti doesn't mind peeing and pooping on a USED tray. Except if overly used and there's more than two piles of poop then she'll go beside the tray. I do frequently clean the trays but there's been a few times, time got away from me and I forgot. :smile2: Patti now mostly goes outdoors unless the weather's bad or she's confined to the house. :


Poop NEVER sits on her tray. She has been taught to come get me when she poops, and she gets a treat. Also, thankfully, my husband now also helps in keeping an eye out for when she has pooped. So, she poops, and it gets picked up immediately. Before I was finally able to get her (and hubby) so well trained, that poop would be gone cause she'd eat it. I learned early on to check the grate for tell-tale signs that poop had been there for a few seconds but now was gone, thanks to a little poop-eater.

Consider yourself very lucky that you had no problem with Patti. I was changing papers and disinfecting the tray at least 6 times a day, if not more, during that time when she was too refined to pee a second time on a used tray. With a sick mother and husband during those early days, I was wondering what in the world I had been thinking to bring a puppy into this mix. I am thankful we all survived.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Jeanniek said:


> Poop NEVER sits on her tray. She has been taught to come get me when she poops, and she gets a treat. Also, thankfully, my husband now also helps in keeping an eye out for when she has pooped. So, she poops, and it gets picked up immediately. Before I was finally able to get her (and hubby) so well trained, that poop would be gone cause she'd eat it. I learned early on to check the grate for tell-tale signs that poop had been there for a few seconds but now was gone, thanks to a little poop-eater.
> 
> Consider yourself very lucky that you had no problem with Patti. I was changing papers and disinfecting the tray at least 6 times a day, if not more, during that time when she was too refined to pee a second time on a used tray. With a sick mother and husband during those early days, I was wondering what in the world I had been thinking to bring a puppy into this mix. I am thankful we all survived.


I have to say, what a great way to manage poop-eating! Impressive training


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## HighlandGlenn (Oct 22, 2019)

krandall said:


> ...all will use an indoor potty (litter box with a grate) if they need to.


I haven't read all the posts in this thread yet, but I wanted to ask what size litter box you use for your dogs?

I saw a potty box video on YouTube from Wittle Havanese and made one. My two pups have been using first a potty mat (which I hated because it had an awful odor that literally could not be cleaned out of it!) and then a tray with newspaper (which I hate for the ink and wet mess). They use it very reliably. The litter box we got for the potty box is size large but I think it is too small for my puppies, they will not use it, at all!

I really want to make this work for them. With cold winter almost upon us, it will be a big help.


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## HighlandGlenn (Oct 22, 2019)

I've heard of a set up called a "puppy apartment". Basically, it is a large crate with a divider for a sleeping section and a potty section. An xpen could be set up like this too.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Personally, I think the puppy apartment is a terrible idea, as I would never want to encourage a dog to eliminate in a crate. An expen, with a sleeping area or crate in one end and a potty in the other gives much more space, and enough differentiation that they understand that crates are for sleeping and potties are for elimination. Here is Kodi's "bedroom" when he was a puppy (before Dave caved and decided dogs could sleep in OUR bedroom! LOL!  ) And then the expen set-up both the girls used. They didn't have a crate in theirs, because theirs was only a temporary daytime holding area. They slept in crates in our room at night.

The third is what now sits where the "puppy housing" used to sit. These are their "grown-up" crates, which they use for meals and also when we need to confine them for short periods, such as times when doors are opening and closing a lot bringing things in, or guests coming in and out, etc.

One thing you need to be careful about if you put a crate inside a pen is that many an adventurous Havanese puppy has learned to use the crate as a step-stool to freedom. So if you put a crate inside the pen, put it against a solid wall where they can't use it as an escape route. Kodi's crate was large, and attached to the outside of a 30" pen. He couldn't climb up on it. (It was really over-kill for most Havanese, but I was being over-cautious with my first!)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

HighlandGlenn said:


> I haven't read all the posts in this thread yet, but I wanted to ask what size litter box you use for your dogs?
> 
> I saw a potty box video on YouTube from Wittle Havanese and made one. My two pups have been using first a potty mat (which I hated because it had an awful odor that literally could not be cleaned out of it!) and then a tray with newspaper (which I hate for the ink and wet mess). They use it very reliably. The litter box we got for the potty box is size large but I think it is too small for my puppies, they will not use it, at all!
> 
> I really want to make this work for them. With cold winter almost upon us, it will be a big help.


Unfortunately, neither of the brands I use are made (or available in the US) anymore. I'd get the biggest you possibly can. You can also get a big plastic tray and find some kind of grate to put on top of it. Or leave it open for many puppies. Many will leave the litter completely alone. I have one who will eat it, so they must be covered. But I know lots of people who have no problem with open litter boxes. Then you can use all kinds of non-standard things, like potting trays or cement mixing trays from Tractor supply. And they come MUCH larger.


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