# Los Arriba Havanese?



## Josabermo

Has anyone heard of Los Arriba Havanese? I found this breeder on Elaine's Lil Pawz Havanese website. I'd love to hear of any experiences or insight that you have on them. Thanks!

Update: Thanks to all for their input! I contacted breeder and had great discussion with her - she provides health certification info, has shown shown dogs for a number of years and is professional groomer. Added vote of confidence - others on forum had personal knowledge of her that was positive.


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## 31818

Josabermo said:


> Has anyone heard of Los Arriba Havanese? I found this breeder on Elaine's Lil Pawz Havanese website. I'd love to hear of any experiences or insight that you have on them. Thanks!


I am VERY skeptical about this breeder! First, she has no website with pertinent information about her philosophy and business operation. Second, she appears to be breeding teacup or mini-Havanese. This is a no-no. Third, any information about her on the Internet is very out of date.

I would steer clear of her.

Ricky's Popi


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## Josabermo

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I am VERY skeptical about this breeder! First, she has no website with pertinent information about her philosophy and business operation. Second, she appears to be breeding teacup or mini-Havanese. This is a no-no. Third, any information about her on the Internet is very out of date.
> 
> I would steer clear of her.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


Wow, I missed all that - where did you see that she's breeding mini-Havanese? I tried to do some research on her but didn't see much. Here is the Los Arriba Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/Havaneseshoweducation
It looked like she is a groomer and shows dog. And she was referenced on http://www.lilpawzhavanese.net which also seemed to be a reputable breeder. Goodness, finding a good breeder is harder than I thought! And clearly I need to brush up on my internet sleuthing skills...


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## 31818

Josabermo said:


> where did you see that she's breeding mini-Havanese?


Shbe appears to be listed on sites listing "teacup" or "mini-Havanese. But for some reason these sites have been taken down and no specific information is available



> I tried to do some research on her but didn't see much. Here is the Los Arriba Facebook page:


Yeah, I don't do Facebook because I don't agree with the company's policies and business philosophy.


> Goodness, finding a good breeder is harder than I thought! And clearly I need to brush up on my internet sleuthing skills...


Havanese breed is becoming very popular right now and opportunists are getting on board to make easy money. I'm not saying this applies to Los Arriba Havanese but the lack of information is concerning.

It is best to contact the local chapter of HCA (Havanese Club of America). I believe Fresno is part of the NorCal HCA. They have an active group and should be able to recommend a list of reputable breeder in your area.

Ricky's Popi


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## KarMar

Charlotte with Los Arriba is a very responsible breeder, and it is unfortunate to see such severe misinformation on this thread. Los Arriba shows their dogs, has health testing results on OFA, is the owner of one of the top agility Havanese (Bexar, who has been featured in Westminster agility finals the past two years), and she is a professional groomer and handler. No "mini" or "teacup" anything, and in this day and age, it isn't uncommon for breeders to not maintain websites, especially if their puppies are able to sell on word of mouth alone.

OP, I would highly recommend reaching out to Charlotte. Discuss her program, the health testing she does, etc


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## davetgabby

I have never liked the idea of discussing breeders on the forum. I think it should be done privately if someone has info they want to share . People's reputations can be damaged by incorrect or biased opinions.


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## Vartina Ancrum

Hi there,
I am no expert but I believe the best option is to look for breeders through local chapters. Most chapters have breeder referrals.


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## 31818

KarMar said:


> and it is unfortunate to see such severe misinformation on this thread.............it isn't uncommon for breeders to not maintain websites, especially if their puppies are able to sell on word of mouth alone.


Then how does a prospective owner find this information if not on a website? What are they supposed to do? There is almost no information about Los Arriba on the Internet not even "word of mouth." Nothing about them anywhere on Havanese Forum. I recommended the OP reach out to NorCal HCA for more information about Los Arriba since she doesn't provide any herself. Your criticism is a bit heavy handed under the circumstances. There are a lot of Havanese scam artists out there today. I tried to help the OP with my opinion and you gave your opinion and that is fine. No need for you to do a "drive by."

Ricky's Popi


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## davetgabby

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Then how does a prospective owner find this information if not on a website? What are they supposed to do? There is almost no information about Los Arriba on the Internet not even "word of mouth." Nothing about them anywhere on Havanese Forum. I recommended the OP reach out to NorCal HCA for more information about Los Arriba since she doesn't provide any herself. Your criticism is a bit heavy handed under the circumstances. There are a lot of Havanese scam artists out there today. I tried to help the OP with my opinion and you gave your opinion and that is fine. No need for you to do a "drive by."
> 
> Ricky's Popi


sorry but this is your fault for putting information out that was speculative at best; You do this a lot.


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## Josabermo

> Charlotte with Los Arriba is a very responsible breeder, and it is unfortunate to see such severe misinformation on this thread. Los Arriba shows their dogs, has health testing results on OFA, is the owner of one of the top agility Havanese (Bexar, who has been featured in Westminster agility finals the past two years), and she is a professional groomer and handler. No "mini" or "teacup" anything, and in this day and age, it isn't uncommon for breeders to not maintain websites, especially if their puppies are able to sell on word of mouth alone.
> 
> OP, I would highly recommend reaching out to Charlotte. Discuss her program, the health testing she does, etc


Thank you for weighing in! I did reach out and talk to Charlotte and she sounds wonderful. She let me know her sires and dams and said that I could look them up on the OFA site - this is a huge relief. Katie over at Mop Top Havanese also vouched for her and said that Charlotte owns her own grooming business and also is a professional handler.



> I am no expert but I believe the best option is to look for breeders through local chapters. Most chapters have breeder referrals.


I have been reaching out to the local chapters but haven't had much luck. Only Ohana in SoCal got back to me (she doesn't have any litters in the works for the time being). I didn't see Los Arriba in the NorCal Club and the lack of a website gave me pause. After hearing from KarMar and Katie at MopTop I feel so much better. I am trying to be very careful about avoiding backyard breeders. So thankful for this forum - everyone has been so helpful and knowledgeable!


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## Vartina Ancrum

Well, this is positive. It does appear that someone is familiar with the breeder you like. Good luck with your puppy search! I am looking forward to seeing your new family member in the future.


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## KarMar

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Your criticism is a bit heavy handed under the circumstances.


I'm sorry you feel like way, but I disagree and stand by what I said. Words, especially on a public forum, are very powerful, and now when someone turns a search on her, they are going to see assertion that Charlotte breeds "teacups" and "minis". I felt it my duty to make sure those erroneous claims were followed up by someone setting the record straight and ensuring they were made aware just how inaccurate that information was.

The Los Arriba page on Facebook is incredibly active, making her very accessible to a large portion of the population (and clearly a large enough portion to have no issue selling puppies). A Google search won't turn up word of mouth; that happens organically, more than you could imagine for many breeders. Heck, our beloved Miss Panda's breeder an incredibly tertiary website with minimal information. If you can find wonderful homes for puppies without a website, there is no need to go through the hassle of maintaining one.

Again, I apologize if you felt my response was unnecessary. I did not. I really only swing by every month/couple of months these days. Getting this kind of greeting in response was unfortunate and part of the reason I stay away. Have a good one, all. Until next month!


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## KarMar

Josabermo said:


> Thank you for weighing in! I did reach out and talk to Charlotte and she sounds wonderful. She let me know her sires and dams and said that I could look them up on the OFA site - this is a huge relief. Katie over at Mop Top Havanese also vouched for her and said that Charlotte owns her own grooming business and also is a professional handler.


So glad you got a hold of her! I have really liked what I have seen of her dogs, both structurally and temperament wise. Good to know she is also one of the ones able to speak with candor regarding her program, health testing, etc.

Best of luck!


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## Wulfin

Honestly, most breeders in Canada have websites that are years out of date, etc as everything moves towards social media as a platform, I imagine it’s similar south of the border as well. So while in the past websites have been fantastic, things are moving away from it to either Facebook or Instagram as there is more interaction and tbh, it’s just EASIER. Many breeders don’t have amazing technical ability or the TIME .. 

As for Los Arribas, I don’t know much about them but my breeder pointed to Charlotte’s recent grooming videos On Facebook as a place to learn about grooming havs during the pandemic and called her a good breeder in that same post.


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## Cassandra

I understand the concerns that this thread has created and appreciate the concern about difficulty in getting information about breeders and value of sharing and the dangers of misinformation. It is possible to edit a post if done quickly so I suggest Ricky Ricardo edit his post to add the information others have added re this being a breeder with a good reputation.


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## 31818

KarMar said:


> I disagree and stand by what I said. Words, especially on a public forum, are very powerful, and now when someone turns a search on her, they are going to see assertion that Charlotte breeds "teacups" and "minis".


From an Internet search regarding Los Arriba:

















As I said in my post:
"She appears to be listed on sites listing "teacup" or "mini-Havanese. But for some reason these sites have been taken down and no specific information is available"
She has already been associated with minis and teacups on the Internet since 2014 before anything was said on Havanese Forum. Perhaps she was warning against purchasing Teacup or Mini-Havanese but that is unclear since clicking on those links brings up a blank page. It is unclear and something to consider, no "assertion" she breeds teacups and minis. I am always skeptical about taking anything from the Internet literally and this is a good example. I always try to double check these sources but Charlotte has scant information about her program except for Facebook (which I don't do) and I went to her page, but again found photos of cute Havanese but little else. Facebook is notorious for sometimes being a haven for scammers. Facebook, like Havanese Forum, is a social medium, not really designed to be a business medium.

You can go ahead and check in once a month to correct the record. I am glad you did, but how long should a new member's inquiry wait for you to check in? Occasionally there are threads that lead to controversy and you need to have a pretty thick skin. I stand by what I said in my original post. Nothing I said was inaccurate or "severe misinformation". I have no personal knowledge of Los Arriba and I was "skeptical" based on an Internet search. Obviously you have personal information about her and thank dog you checked in. The record has been corrected.

Ricky's Popi


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## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Then how does a prospective owner find this information if not on a website? What are they supposed to do? There is almost no information about Los Arriba on the Internet not even "word of mouth." Nothing about them anywhere on Havanese Forum. I recommended the OP reach out to NorCal HCA for more information about Los Arriba since she doesn't provide any herself. Your criticism is a bit heavy handed under the circumstances. There are a lot of Havanese scam artists out there today. I tried to help the OP with my opinion and you gave your opinion and that is fine. No need for you to do a "drive by."
> 
> Ricky's Popi


I think the thing is, that these small breeders usually don't have extra puppies beyond what they can place on their waiting list, so it really doesn't even MATTER whether prospective puppy owners can "vet" them. They are not trying to sell their puppies to the general public.

I have not decided to breed Panda. To the contrary, I've pretty much decided NOT to breed her. But I have a list of 6 or 7 people who have quite seriously told me that they would like to be considered for one of her puppies if/when I DO breed her. And that is without even a PLAN to breed her. She is extremely well-bred. She is a finished champion. She is fully health tested and has a CHIC number on file with OFA. Beyond that, she has multiple PERFORMANCE titles. So would I have to make a website to be considered a "reputable breeder" if I chose to breed her? It is HIGHLY unlikely that there would be any Panda puppies available to the general public. If I did, it would seem to almost be a "brag page" more than anything else... I know that people who DO have nice websites and don't breed many puppies spend HUGE amounts of time fielding questions fro people who WANT puppies, only to have to tell them they don't have any, won't have any in the foreseeable future, and don't know anyone else with any right now either. It's a lot of work. And if they DON'T get back to each and every one of these calls and emails, they get the reputation as "non-responsive"... Even if they happen to be dealing with a family emergency or are away at the time, or, or, or...

I DO think it makes sense for us here on the Forum to give information on breeders that we KNOW about personally or by REAL reputation. There are a few really bad actors that people should know about, and there are a lot of GOOD breeders that people have had great experiences with and can speak about in glowing terms! people should hear that!!! I even think it can be useful for more experienced folks to look over a website for someone new to the puppy-search and educate them on how to "read" a website, what's missing from a website, and what questions should be asked of the breeder based on what's missing, as well as things that look like REAL problems. (such as mixed breed puppies, puppies raised in kennels, the difference between real "health testing" and a "puppy health check", breeders who will not allow puppy buyers to visit...)

I think that when it comes to a breeder with NO website, it might make most sense just to say that flashy websites don't necessarily mean good breeders and poor websites or even NO website doesn't NECESSARILY mean anything other than a tech-non-savvy person who is spending more time working with their dogs than their computer.  It might make it harder to research that breeder, but you have two options. Dig deeper with the use of a local club and/or local references, or move on. If it's really hard to find information about a specific breeder, what it PROBABLY means is that they won't have a puppy available for you, whether they are a good breeder or not.


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## krandall

KarMar said:


> The Los Arriba page on Facebook is incredibly active, making her very accessible to a large portion of the population (and clearly a large enough portion to have no issue selling puppies). A Google search won't turn up word of mouth; that happens organically, more than you could imagine for many breeders. Heck, our beloved Miss Panda's breeder an incredibly tertiary website with minimal information. If you can find wonderful homes for puppies without a website, there is no need to go through the hassle of maintaining one.


Yes, Panda's litter was EXCEPTIONALLY large, (9 live puppies) and also her breeder's first litter. Several of those puppies did end up in pet homes. The litters that Elizabeth has bred since then have ALL been spoken for before they were born. Elizabeth does keep a SHORT list of people she thinks would make exemplary pet homes, usually local to her, but almost all puppies go to either show or performance homes. Really no need for much on a website.


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## davetgabby

Ricky's Popi , take a look at these statements you made. 

" I have no personal knowledge of Los Arriba and I was "skeptical" based on an Internet search. "

" Perhaps she was warning against purchasing Teacup or Mini-Havanese but that is unclear "

"Second, she appears to be breeding teacup or mini-Havanese."

"Shbe appears to be listed on sites listing "teacup" or "mini-Havanese". 

Think before you speak. When not sure of something that could ruin a person's reputation it's best to say nothing. Like I said earlier , you have a habit of making uninformed statements.


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## Josabermo

> I DO think it makes sense for us here on the Forum to give information on breeders that we KNOW about personally or by REAL reputation. There are a few really bad actors that people should know about, and there are a lot of GOOD breeders that people have had great experiences with and can speak about in glowing terms! people should hear that!!! I even think it can be useful for more experienced folks to look over a website for someone new to the puppy-search and educate them on how to "read" a website, what's missing from a website, and what questions should be asked of the breeder based on what's missing, as well as things that look like REAL problems. (such as mixed breed puppies, puppies raised in kennels, the difference between real "health testing" and a "puppy health check", breeders who will not allow puppy buyers to visit...)
> 
> I think that when it comes to a breeder with NO website, it might make most sense just to say that flashy websites don't necessarily mean good breeders and poor websites or even NO website doesn't NECESSARILY mean anything other than a tech-non-savvy person who is spending more time working with their dogs than their computer. It might make it harder to research that breeder, but you have two options. Dig deeper with the use of a local club and/or local references, or move on. If it's really hard to find information about a specific breeder, what it PROBABLY means is that they won't have a puppy available for you, whether they are a good breeder or not.


Wow, didn't expect my innocent question to stir things up so much! As a newbie to the Havanese breed and community I just want to say how much I appreciate everyone's passion and input. This forum has been an invaluable resource and I really respect everyone's opinion. Because there are so many unscrupulous breeders out there with a great website and/or sales pitch it really helps to talk to you who are "in the know" and can confirm which breeders are good.

I chatted at length with Charlotte last night and was happy that she was interviewing me as much as I was interviewing her - this tells me she really cares about her puppies. She has put me on her very long wait list... hopefully there'll be a puppy in the upcoming litter that is a good fit for our family. I really am pleased that she is concerned with ensuring that the puppy's personality aligns with the family. Now it is the hard process of waiting! In the meantime, we will continue to foster animals alongside our current rescue dog, Bella (our 1st foster failure).


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## Vartina Ancrum

It's okay. Many of us have questions. I asked questions about a few breeders I was researching when I first joined. I was lucky enough to find some individuals here who private messaged me regarding the breeders.

I do agree that many breeders don't maintain good websites. But how can we expect them to? They are experts in their breeding and their specific breeds not experts in technology. Also, they have so much to do I am sure maintaining a website isn't high on priority. Some breeders may be lucky enough to know a technical person who can assist them with their online presence. A flashy website doesn't guarantee good pups and an outdated website does not mean low-quality pups However, there are some red flags to watch for and we should ask questions. That's why forums like this one are so great! 

We ask questions, learn, and not be judged.:smile2:


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## 31818

krandall said:


> I DO think it makes sense for us here on the Forum to give information on breeders that we KNOW about personally or by REAL reputation. There are a few really bad actors that people should know about, and there are a lot of GOOD breeders that people have had great experiences with and can speak about in glowing terms! people should hear that!!! I even think it can be useful for more experienced folks to look over a website for someone new to the puppy-search and educate them on how to "read" a website, what's missing from a website, and what questions should be asked of the breeder based on what's missing, as well as things that look like REAL problems. (such as mixed breed puppies, puppies raised in kennels, the difference between real "health testing" and a "puppy health check", breeders who will not allow puppy buyers to visit...)


I visited the "ask a breeder" topic today on HF and the sticky, "What to ask for? -- breeder credentials and health checks?" Heather from Cache Havanese wrote a well reasoned post (*in my opinion) on tips for finding a breeder but even that was not without a bit of controversy. I had the pleasure of talking with Heather a few times and tried to purchase a puppy from her, but she had nothing available at the time. Unfortunately she left Havanese Forum years ago and that was a real loss. She told me she got tired of the rude criticism. Some people don't know how to disagree politely and it turns into criticism and that can tear a good chat list to shreds when good people leave.

I know a couple of breeders personally. We are "friendly" but I wouldn't call them social friends, so I think I can be objective. I think they are good breeders, but I don't know enough about breeding to vouch for them. In the future, I will just refer breeder questions on HF to the sticky by Heather from Cache Havanese in the "What to ask for?" thread. And call it good enough. And I think I will be posting more in PM's to answer individual questions I have personal experience about anything. Less angst all the way around.

Ricky's Popi


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## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I visited the "ask a breeder" topic today on HF and the sticky, "What to ask for? -- breeder credentials and health checks?" Heather from Cache Havanese wrote a well reasoned post (*in my opinion) on tips for finding a breeder but even that was not without a bit of controversy. I had the pleasure of talking with Heather a few times and tried to purchase a puppy from her, but she had nothing available at the time. Unfortunately she left Havanese Forum years ago and that was a real loss. She told me she got tired of the rude criticism. Some people don't know how to disagree politely and it turns into criticism and that can tear a good chat list to shreds when good people leave.
> 
> I know a couple of breeders personally. We are "friendly" but I wouldn't call them social friends, so I think I can be objective. I think they are good breeders, but I don't know enough about breeding to vouch for them. In the future, I will just refer breeder questions on HF to the sticky by Heather from Cache Havanese in the "What to ask for?" thread. And call it good enough. And I think I will be posting more in PM's to answer individual questions I have personal experience about anything. Less angst all the way around.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


Heather's post is probably very good, though I don't remember the details. She's a nice person, and definitely devoted to the breed. I honestly think that a lot of education about "reading" websites, for instance is useful for other people to read, so should be done on the the forum, in public.

I've been jumped on often enough on the forum to know that it's no fun. But you are a valued member here. Don't forget that!!! :hug:


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## 31818

krandall said:


> I've been jumped on often enough on the forum to know that it's no fun.


Karen it's to your credit and our benefit that you still post here. The problem is being "jumped on". A member can always disagree without attacking personally (my definition of "jumped on"). For example in this thread a member can always say. "I disagree. I know Charlotte from Los Arriba and this is my experience with her................" I always try to do my best, but sometimes my best isn't good enough and I welcome a different viewpoint as a potential teaching moment. For example (not in this thread but in others) a statement like "how can you say that?" does not set a good tone. A better way to start is, "that's an interesting statement. What led you to that conclusion?"

Anyway, this thread has taught me that I need to be more careful and circumspect what I say and how I say it. It has been a learning experience for me and that's good. You can teach an old dog new tricks. :wink2: I'm not going anywhere other than taking Ricky for his evening walk right now. :grin2:

Ricky's Popi


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## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Karen it's to your credit and our benefit that you still post here. The problem is being "jumped on". A member can always disagree without attacking personally (my definition of "jumped on"). For example in this thread a member can always say. "I disagree. I know Charlotte from Los Arriba and this is my experience with her................" I always try to do my best, but sometimes my best isn't good enough and I welcome a different viewpoint as a potential teaching moment. For example (not in this thread but in others) a statement like "how can you say that?" does not set a good tone. A better way to start is, "that's an interesting statement. What led you to that conclusion?"
> 
> Anyway, this thread has taught me that I need to be more careful and circumspect what I say and how I say it. It has been a learning experience for me and that's good. You can teach an old dog new tricks. :wink2: I'm not going anywhere other than taking Ricky for his evening walk right now. :grin2:
> 
> Ricky's Popi


I agree completely, and you know I've suffered my share of "jumped on" moments. One of the problems with an almost totally unmoderated forum. This is the "wild West". &#128521;. In general, Ithink we have to give people credit for keeping things as civil as they usually are, considering that it IS generally by consensus.


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## mudpuppymama

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Karen it's to your credit and our benefit that you still post here. The problem is being "jumped on". A member can always disagree without attacking personally (my definition of "jumped on"). For example in this thread a member can always say. "I disagree. I know Charlotte from Los Arriba and this is my experience with her................" I always try to do my best, but sometimes my best isn't good enough and I welcome a different viewpoint as a potential teaching moment. For example (not in this thread but in others) a statement like "how can you say that?" does not set a good tone. A better way to start is, "that's an interesting statement. What led you to that conclusion?"
> 
> Anyway, this thread has taught me that I need to be more careful and circumspect what I say and how I say it. It has been a learning experience for me and that's good. You can teach an old dog new tricks. :wink2: I'm not going anywhere other than taking Ricky for his evening walk right now. :grin2:
> 
> Ricky's Popi


Ricky's Popi, I am very sorry you got "jumped on". I know how that feels and it is very upsetting especially when the person means well and is trying to be helpful. I try to be compassionate when reading posts, looking for the poster's intent vs what actually comes out. I know I too have hit the reply button too soon on occasion so working on that.


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## 31818

mudpuppymama said:


> Ricky's Popi, I am very sorry you got "jumped on". I know how that feels and it is very upsetting especially when the person means well and is trying to be helpful. I try to be compassionate when reading posts, looking for the poster's intent vs what actually comes out. I know I too have hit the reply button too soon on occasion so working on that.


:thumb:

Ricky's Popi


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## EvaE1izabeth

It seems like the concern is in defense of the reputation of the breeder. This thread does answer questions someone else might have doing the same online search, but it also assumes someone will read the whole thread. Is it possible to update the forum rules to ask people to edit their original breeder post with the information from the thread and any relevant links?

When I first started looking for a puppy, my search started online, and I’m not really on Facebook. My husband is, so he did look up the breeder, but I was looking for a websites. I did figure out that some of the best breeders don’t have time or even a real need to update their websites. I think it’s helpful for people to know that even though we use technology in some way to make most of our major purchases, a puppy is completely different. It’s built on personal interactions with a breeder. 

Please don’t underestimate how much people can potentially learn from people sharing their mistakes and insecurities. I hope it isn’t personal when we disagree or correct each other. I know when people correct me I’m thankful for it.


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## 31818

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Is it possible to update the forum rules to ask people to edit their original breeder post with the information from the thread and any relevant links?


EvaE, I will not edit my post. Everything I said was true:

'First, she has no website with pertinent information about her philosophy and business operation."
*TRUE*

"Second, she appears to be breeding teacup or mini-Havanese."
*TRUE* In another post I linked the two sites that had her included under Teacup and mini-Havanese websites. I went on to say the meaning was unclear since the websites had been taken down. I also said she may have been included because she was opposed to such breeding.

"Third, any information about her on the Internet is very out of date."
*TRUE* The latest information I could find about her dates back to 2014.

I think all the posts "as is" are instructive. The record has been corrected by others:
- searching the Internet is not always the best way to find a good breeder
- an HF member knows her and says she is not breeding non-standard Havanese and in fact breeding to good bloodlines.
- sometimes good breeders don't need to have an Internet presence because their dogs are in demand and generally pre-sold and they don't need to update their information because they have a waiting list.

I know when I was searching for my dog I searched the Internet, I looked for recommendations from local clubs, and I contacted local breeders (some of whom were on the Internet and some weren't). I consulted the HF files on selecting a breeder. I did talk to Heather from Cache Havanese in Nevada who wrote the post on selecting a breeder. She was very helpful, but said she had nothing for me. she suggested I talk to a breeder in Sacramento. There was nothing available to me locally, so I did call the breeder in Sacramento who had a 6 y.o. successful show dog that was being retired. The breeder did express some reluctance when I told her we were an active family and she said her dog was a "couch potato." But she agreed to sell and I made arrangements to drive to Sacramento to pick up "Talk of the Town". Two days before pick up date, the breeder called me and said she had changed her mind. A week later a local breeder called me and said she had a lead on a highly sociable, gorgeous 9 m.o. puppy that was doing well on the show circuit in the Northwest. He was being sold because it had been determined that he had a potential MINOR abnormality that would prevent him from being shown further on AKC and therefore was unsuitable as a stud dog when an adult. Two weeks later we drove to Portland, OR, and picked up "Welcome to the Jungle" Ricky Ricardo (ex. Mojito, ex. Slash). The rest is history. And I think he would still be very competitive in AKC conformation if it weren't for the fact he is missing his cajones.

So yes, I think all the posts in this thread are instructional and editing would present a type of censorship.

Ricky's Popi


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## EvaE1izabeth

Ricky Ricardo said:


> EvaE, I will not edit my post. Everything I said was true:
> 
> 'First, she has no website with pertinent information about her philosophy and business operation."
> *TRUE*
> 
> "Second, she appears to be breeding teacup or mini-Havanese."
> *TRUE* In another post I linked the two sites that had her included under Teacup and mini-Havanese websites. I went on to say the meaning was unclear since the websites had been taken down. I also said she may have been included because she was opposed to such breeding.
> 
> "Third, any information about her on the Internet is very out of date."
> *TRUE* The latest information I could find about her dates back to 2014.
> 
> I think all the posts "as is" are instructive. The record has been corrected by others:
> - searching the Internet is not always the best way to find a good breeder
> - an HF member knows her and says she is not breeding non-standard Havanese and in fact breeding to good bloodlines.
> - sometimes good breeders don't need to have an Internet presence because their dogs are in demand and generally pre-sold and they don't need to update their information because they have a waiting list.
> 
> I know when I was searching for my dog I searched the Internet, I looked for recommendations from local clubs, and I contacted local breeders (some of whom were on the Internet and some weren't). I consulted the HF files on selecting a breeder. I did talk to Heather from Cache Havanese in Nevada who wrote the post on selecting a breeder. She was very helpful, but said she had nothing for me. she suggested I talk to a breeder in Sacramento. There was nothing available to me locally, so I did call the breeder in Sacramento who had a 6 y.o. successful show dog that was being retired. The breeder did express some reluctance when I told her we were an active family and she said her dog was a "couch potato." But she agreed to sell and I made arrangements to drive to Sacramento to pick up "Talk of the Town". Two days before pick up date, the breeder called me and said she had changed her mind. A week later a local breeder called me and said she had a lead on a highly sociable, gorgeous 9 m.o. puppy that was doing well on the show circuit in the Northwest. He was being sold because it had been determined that he had a potential MINOR abnormality that would prevent him from being shown further on AKC and therefore was unsuitable as a stud dog when an adult. Two weeks later we drove to Portland, OR, and picked up "Welcome to the Jungle" Ricky Ricardo (ex. Mojito, ex. Slash). The rest is history. And I think he would still be very competitive in AKC conformation if it weren't for the fact he is missing his cajones.
> 
> So yes, I think all the posts in this thread are instructional and editing would present a type of censorship.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


I was referring to the original poster. I think it's unlikely to work, because people often move on from the forum quickly. Adding an _update_ that is more likely to be seen by someone glancing at the thread, or searching the forum for the name of the breeder, isn't asking anyone to redact their post.

For example,

* unable to find website online 
* found the breeder on Facebook
* the breeder does the following health testing... 
* here is a link to previous thread regarding members' experiences with the breeder

I see it as the exact opposite of censorship. Often people only read the first few posts in a thread, and in this case it could be misleading, even though others might draw the same conclusions you did. It allows people to openly ask questions and share information in a way that is respectful of that process, while recognizing that these are real people, and most often their real names.


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## Posey’sMom

I used to attend dog shows and meet breeders, not during the show itself, in the grooming areas when they weren’t involved in preparing their dogs for show. I found they were very helpful discussing the breed, health, temperament. When I was looking for my first cairn terrier, we went to several shows, the breeders got to know us, and when we were ready to purchase, they were able to recommend a breeder and the breeder expecting our call because the woman that did the recommendation let her know in advance. That was in 2000. 

I found the woman who bred Posey on the internet. I start by going to Infodog.com, look at the show results, write down the breeder names, search the breeders, and then contact the breeder. I had actually contacted a breeder in the summer of 2018 hoping for a puppy in the spring of 2019, she was wonderful and I was confident about her breeding program. She contacted me the weekend before Labor Day wanting to know if I wanted to be placed on a list for puppy in November and I said no because we had a new grand baby coming in November and we were babysitting our granddaughter. I was thinking spring as I don’t babysit during the summer. Unfortunately, my golden died the following, which was unexpected. She was happy, full of energy and then got sick, huge tumor in her tummy and vet said she wouldn’t live the next few days. I thought no more dogs for me, too hard, but a few weeks later I couldn’t not having a dog and contacted first breeder, but the list was full. Back to the search, I contacted another breeder that did not have puppies but gave the name of Posey’s breeder. I hit the jackpot as she had just put her puppies up on her site the night before I called her. So happy with the breeder that my daughter is getting a puppy from her tomorrow. 

Going to dog shows, or Infodog are excellent ways to find reputable breeders. Websites are certainly helpful, especially sites that allow you to look up health clearances. It is true that many breeders don’t update their sites, and no judgement here, but it may be prudent for breeders to do a search from time to time just to make sure their kennel is not misrepresented on the internet. Even if the breeder has no interest in maintaining a website, it’s wise to maintain good reputation. It is easy to understand why a poster here came to the conclusion he did, that’s not on him, that’s on the information that is out there.


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## Cassandra

There was a suggestion made earlier that a solution here might be for the original poster to amend the original post to say something like, “Update: I contacted breeder and had positive discussion. Also others on forum had personal knowledge that was positive.” That might negate what some of us worry about the the second post which ends with “I would steer clear” would be the only thing people would read.

All the points about difficulty in getting internet information remain valid, but rest of thread covers issues about inability to make a judgement based solely on “google research efforts” might lead people to reach a different result. I personally think contacting good breeders who have no puppies but know people who do is one of the best avenues of research! And having conversations with people here who have personal knowledge or know people who do...

There have been a lot of posts in past about breeders and lack of information or red flags on websites that haven’t generated any kind of controversy in past...this one probably did because of the concluding sentence, lack of personal knowledge and the subsequent personal knowledge posts by others. I think updating the original post, rather than trying to get the second one updated might help put this to rest.


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## mabel

check with Beseme Havanese we just got 2 puppies from her. she is in Utah. very reputable


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## SJ Sadie's mom

I did years of research into the Havanese breed and breeders before I was ready. It's not uncommon for breeders to have out dated web sites because: 1) they're not in the tech industry, so it's not important to some and 2) some get by fine without a flashy and slick web site and marketing, thank you very much. Imo the best breeders are those that do it to develop and improve the breed and show prospects, not because they have a financial motive.

I have personal knowledge of Charlotte, as I adopted my puppy, Sadie, whom I love to pieces. Charlotte does the full health testing, and was available before, during, and after I got my precious baby girl. Charlotte does not breed in quantity, and that's what you need to pay close attention to : is the breeder constantly producing litters, or only occasionally, when they have to time to do so and so as not to over tax their breeding stock. I'm considering getting a companion for Sadie and wouldn't hesitate to contact Charlotte again.


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