# Help!!! Fifi is not eating!!!



## [email protected] (Aug 5, 2009)

*.*

:closed_2:


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Are you a breeder? I'm not, but that doesn't sound very good to me. Have you tried raw? Maybe you need to take her to the vet and get some advice.
Carole


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## j.j.'s mom (Aug 16, 2009)

do dogs get morning sickness??


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

I feed mine Nature's Variety raw. I do know that it is necessary for pg dogs to get proper nutrition in order to maintain a healthy pregnancy. Maybe it would be a good idea for you to pm one of the breeders on the forum? 
Carole


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

Wow, If you aren't an experienced breeder I would suggest you contact your vet for to have FiFi get a check up and get some professional advise. I'm not so sure internet advice is the best way to go here. If it were my dog I would be concerned. I hope everything is ok with her.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

I agree Christy.


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> well, I have had experience with my first dog. And my first hav. But this one is a little picky. she eats a little and then she stops and leaves. She does not eat in the morning that much but she does eat in the afternoon a little more. When I give her different flavored foods everyday. She does enjoy that. When I try to feed her the same thing for three days in a row, she does not like it by the third day.
> 
> She does not look bad at all, because she wants to play but I have to care for her so she does not hurt her pups.
> 
> Do you guys think it might be because she is almost due???


I'm not sure if I understand you..do you mean you have experience with feeding and dogs? I was meaning because your dog got pregnant is why I would be concerned. Do you know when she got prenant, in order to figure our when the pups are due?


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

It is normal for pregnant dogs to go thru bouts of not wanting to eat- But I would do whatever you can to get something in her every day- those puppies will need all the neutrients they can get-
Who is the father?


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## rdanielle (Sep 2, 2008)

So Dec 2, so she has a good 2 weeks to go. I just went through this with during Sophie's pregnancy. I think morning sickness varies with each bitch. As does their pregnancy.

She was super finicky & I tried everything. We have 5 brands of dog food & she turned her nose at every single one. Tripe. Canned foods. Turkey. Wouldn't touch cottage cheese or eggs. Seemed like it took forever for her to get her appetite back and she still wasn't eating as much as I expected her to be eating but I guess thats expected when there were 7 puppies taking up all the room in her stomach.

Try smaller meals and spacing them out. Maybe hand feeding? Mine's a diva and would only eat off the blanket or hand fed.

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/breedingpregnancyguide.htm


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

If she bred on Dec 2nd, she shouldn't be due until around the 3rd of Feb. If she is in labor now, I would get her to the vet asap- the puppies are way too early to be born now and survive. Keep us updated on her!


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## rdanielle (Sep 2, 2008)

Yeah you def don't want them sooner than 59 days as their chances of survival isn't as high. Also, the bigger the litter the earlier they deliver and vice versa. Glad to hear everything is ok.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

Not to be judgmental or a huge snob or whatever, but if you're not a breeder then why are you breeding your dogs?

I hope everything turns out OK with your girl and her babies.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Yeah, I agree with Natalie... Was this a planned breeding or an Oops!?

Ryan


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Interesting thread. Pregnant bitches should eat until the last 24 to 48 hours. Have you taken her temperature to see if it has dropped? What kind of supplements are you talking about her eating alone?

Cross posted with you.


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

Do either of your dogs have any OFA health testing done? CERF, Hips, Patellas? Are you planning on giving the puppies away or trying to sell them?
Most Hav puppy buyers are very educated on getting a puppy from a reputable breeder that health tests etc prior to breeding their dogs. 
I wish you the best with your puppies, however breeding should not be taken lightly-


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

I gather from your post that this is not your first litter??
Carole


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Oh my :nono: :tape:


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

*sigh* this was what I feared when I first opened the thread this morning.

What is going to happen to the pups other than the one your uncle wants? An ad in the local paper or craigslist?

I think a similar situation is what happened with those pups in my area that Tritia has been trying to help the new owners of a couple of them out with. They have been bounced around and we don't even know what happened to the remainder of that litter. Only the two of them.

I think what frustrates me the most is the fact that while I *desperately* want a Hav puppy, I have not done anything to get one because I cannot afford one from a good breeder at the moment. In other words, I am being realistic about my situation. There are places not far from here where I could get one within my budget, but I won't for a number of reasons. Of course I want a happy, healthy hav. But my biggest thing is the burning desire to make sure I do nothing to support or help perpetuate irresponsible breeding of these wonderful dogs.

I'm sorry if this comes across harshly, but it is how I feel and I cannot keep silent on it.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Hi everyone. I did get them both check and yes this is not my first litter but it is Fifi's first litter. Mommy and Daddy are in great health and have all vitamins, shots, and have gotten de-wormed.Vet already told me that there is nothing to worry about.
> 
> All I had a problem was with her feeding, she has been very picky with her food the last week or so. I always weigh my dogs to see if they are in good health and take them to the vet when they look a little ill. I know that mommy is fine because she plays like normally(which I have to check on her so she won't hurt the pups), and she is gaining weight. All I wanted to know was, what food you guys give as a home cooked meal that I can give to her. I guess you guys just took it the wrong way as if I was hurting my babies.


No one took it as you were hurting your babies but more that you are hurting our breed by breeding irresponsibly just because your uncle wants a dog? I'm sorry but I think it is wrong, neither of your dogs have been fully health tested and you are not breeding for the betterment of our breed.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Is Fifi the mom and Chulo the dad?


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> I never said they never were health tested. They are, I don't know where this came from.


By health tested, what Leeann is referring to is testing for genetic issues that either parent can pass on to their offspring. She is NOT referring to taking to the vet where he give the dog a general health check to see that they are healthy. Responsible breeders realize that their are plenty of great dogs available that are being put to sleep every day in America. Only the best of the best should be bred. That is why they compete in Conformation events to be sure their dogs are excellant representations of the breed before breeding more puppies. They also have the dogs tested where they can for genetic problems that we have in our breed such as:

• Chondrodysplasia 
• Deafness 
• Heart Problems 
• Liver Shunt 
• Seizures 
• Hip Problems-Dysplasia 
• Legg-Calve-Perthes 
• Patellar Luxation


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Thank you Christy that is exactly what I ment by health testing.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Don't feel bad. I don't think you knew any better and it's not right for people to judge you. I don't agree with what you did, but don't feel you should be scolded. I think most people here are just trying to educate the naive. The main thing is, you now know and will change the way you do things. 

Some Vets are just idiots.


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

I apologize for coming across so harshly. It is just something I feel so strongly about. In my area it is VERY prevalent for people to think that getting a couple of dogs that are in demand is a quick and easy route to making money and it leads to so much over-breeding and dogs that have lots of problems and should never have been bred.

I hold your vet more responsible than you, Abby. How negligent of her to tell you it was fine to breed them without advising you of why it wasn't a good idea.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

TheVintageVamp said:


> I apologize for coming across so harshly. It is just something I feel so strongly about. In my area it is VERY prevalent for people to think that getting a couple of dogs that are in demand is a quick and easy route to making money and it leads to so much over-breeding and dogs that have lots of problems and should never have been bred.
> 
> I hold your vet more responsible than you, Abby. How negligent of her to tell you it was fine to breed them without advising you of why it wasn't a good idea.


I feel the same way. I live in a puppymill state


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

I have no idea why your vet would tell you it was ok to breed without giving you much more information than that. My current vet is very pro spay and neuter as are most vets but I have had bad vets before that made inaccurate diagnosis, or had less than optimal knowlege on proper nutrition. 

Point in fact, I took in a parrot years back who had been to a vet and the owner was told he was healthy. When my vet saw the bird he could see the overgrown beak and nails, the bird was overweight, the liver was so enlarged that the other organs were all pushed to the back. That bird had fatty liver disease, one of the biggest killers of pet parrots. After running tests he knew the bile acids were extremely high and the cholesterol level for the poor bird was 3 times normal.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

^ Usually I say go with your gut. Vets are human, they can make mistakes or overlook small things. Then there are some who just don't care (sounds like the one who looked at the bird to begin with). That's why they "practice" medicine, just like doctors.

Personally, if I ever have a bad feeling about anything and my doctor/vet doesn't agree with me, I always seek a second opinion.

I dunno, to me it is just good sense not to breed dogs if you're not an experienced breeder and don't intend on establishing a reputable breeding program. I don't think someone should need a vet to tell them that, that's kind of like saying you need a doctor to tell you smoking is bad...duh!


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Ok, I was not going to jump in here, but I must say something in regard to your "vet" advising you all would be ok. I have never heard of any vet saying that. Typically they say the opposite to help educate their clients that are hoping to have a litter but have no idea what they are doing. A vet can't tell either when a litter would be due just by feeling the bitches stomach. Feeding a pregnant bitch is part of "breeding 101", there is so much more. Breeding should be about IMPROVING the breed and should be done with dogs that are not only healthy but are also structurally correct. "Breed the best to the best" is what almost every breeding book and seminar will say. Vet's don't promote breeding, they promote spaying and neutering.

Since you have access to the internet, I am surprised you didn't research this precious breed more carefully before you bought one and certainly before you bred one. It sounds like this isn't the first time you have bred dogs either. 

I pray your Fifi and her puppies will be fine and healthy.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Abby, the reason this subject is hitting a nerve with so many of us, is that we've had many discussions about Havs being bred either "for fun" or as a hobby. We've heard from people with sick Havs bred this way, with Havs that aren't at all close to the standard and puppies given to people unneutered/unspayed which only means more of these types of Havs being bred by what are called "backyard breeders". If you have a pregnant bitch, then you are a "breeder". I'd like to still have an open discussion here so that everyone can learn. 

Yes, your intentions might have been good, but that doesn't mean it was a good idea to breed without having studied the breed for a long period of time, getting in touch with several reputable breeders to learn all you can, properly health testing the sire and dam (and that's what Christy listed in her post). Any vet can say "Oh, they're healthy", but they don't have x-ray vision, nor the proper tools to look at their eyes, their hips, their bloodwork, unless they do those tests that truly tell you if they are healthy. 

When we ask about puppies in pet shops, we are told "The vet says they are healthy" and yet we KNOW FOR A FACT that 90-95% of these puppies come from commercial breeders/puppy mills so there is no way they are healthy.

I realize you now feel badly about this, but what's done is done. What is important now, is that Fifi remain healthy and strong so she can deliver and nourish these puppies w/o problems. I would just like to be sure that this is not the norm out there and that the Havanese is only bred by those that know what the heck they are doing - and this comes only with years of exposure to the breed, years of study and with mentors willing to back you up and teach you. 

If there is any way to ensure that these puppies are neutered or spayed before they go to their new homes, then you will have helped greatly in fixing this problem that exists. Maybe there is a way you can do this..? 
You will ensure that this breeding is not going to spread and become an even bigger problem. I too hope that the puppies are strong and healthy and for years to come. Wishing you and them all the best!


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I know some breeders who spay and neuter their pups before giving them to the puppy buyer. I don't agree with this early spay and neutering, but in this case I think it must be done.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

I just found this thread an it's upsetting to me as well. We obtained our first Hav from what I now know is a backyard breeder, we got lucky that he's healthy. We love Scooter and wouldn't trade him for anything but now wish we'd known more going into it. 

Our next two were rescues, Murphy was given up at 12 weeks because he was "too much work". Gracie was purchased online from a breeder by someone who wanted to get into breeding Havs. Gracie and another female were bought at 6 months old, unseen, to be used for breeding. Neither Gracie or the other dog are even close to conforming to what would be considered breeding bitches. So they were given up, the person who bought them didn't want to bother with them but at least she gave them up so they didn't wind up in a mill. They had both spent most of those 6 months of life in a crate.

Nobody who truly cares about the betterment of the breed and producing healthy pups would breed in this way. It makes me physically ill.

I do hope you spay and neuter your own dogs and educate whoever you give your puppies to so they do the same. Just go check out the Havanese Rescue web site, Petfinder.com, or Craigs List to see how many Havanese and Hav mixes are abandoned and need homes.

I'm not judging you, I made a mistake too. Now you have the opportunity to educate others, I hope you take it.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Abby,

I know this is a very touchy and tabu subject... breeding dogs for personal reasons and by accident. Everyone makes mistakes!

Just curious though... is the father of the litter, 'Chulo'? (the rescue havanese you got 7 weeks ago?)

Ryan


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I'm just curious didn't the breeder of both your girl and oreo have a neuter and spay contract? Meaning you must spay and neuter them? That's what most good breeders do.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

I was wondering the same thing Linda. 
I sure hope you request that of your puppy owners.
Carole


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I can't help but be curious. Is Chulo intact? Because according to your calculations about when you bred her, it was December 2nd and December 3rd Chulo came into your home. So, if he's intact and she was in heat . . .???


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

They are asking about your AKC registration papers on FiFi and your friend's on Oreo. Unless a dog is a show prospect, the respected breeders only issue a limited registration and that requires the dog be spayed or neutered by a specified age.

Are these dogs registered with the AKC?


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Oh, I understand now Linda. I have Fifi because of my first havs. I don't really know where my friend got her Hav.


No offense to you, Abby. I mean that.  BUT... this is exactly why the two should not have been bred. Because you "have no idea" where they came from, you also have no idea about genetic issues, possible liver conditions (that you won't see until later perhaps), hip and/or knee problems, eyes, hearing, etc... etc....

I say this only to hopefully teach anyone reading this that it takes more than just getting a female and a male to mate to have a successful litter. If we can all learn from this, then so much the better all around.


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

Ok...does this mean you had Havanese that you bred before and FiFi is their offspring? If so...what happened to them?


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

I don't think anyone set out to hurt you. When you post on a public forum, and ask questions, you have to expect honest replies. This forum is a group of people who love their dogs dearly, we only want what's best for them so everyone tends to speak out if there appears to be anything unusual.

Encouraging you to require that the puppies you give away or sell are spayed/neutered is just people who care trying to help you do the right thing.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

My internet has been off and that's probably a good thing.....but I did want to tell you something.

I think it's sad that you decided to breed havs that should be spayed and neutered,because had they come from a reputable breeder you would of not had papers or you would of had a manitory spay/neuter contract. If you want to be a havanese breeder,then do it the right way..the respectable way..get a show quality dog and champion that dog,your breeder will mentor you and down the road you will be a respectable havanese breeder with champion show dogs before you put puppies on the ground.Breeding 2 dogs because your uncle is too cheap to buy his own dog is beyond anything I've ever heard of in my life.

I want to tell you a true story that happened recently so hopefully you will think about this and break this cycle of breeding because both are just available and in tact.

I work at a vet clinic and we had a lady come in one night all upset with a box full of stinky/poopy pups and they were very very cold. She had the mother and was concerned because she had already lost pups before she came.The mother was very lithergic and they x-rayed her while I attended the pups.Long story short...this dog had labored for 2 days and had a puppy stuck in her birth canal...she was full of infection and they had to do an emergency section on her and spay and her uterus had damage. I remember looking at this owner who dearly loved this old dog and she had just put 2 dogs together and wanted a litter. The crazy thing was--this dog was old.I believe 6-8 yrs. though I do not remember exactly. The pups died one after another (litter of 10) and they only saved 2. The saddest day was the day I went in and the owner was crawled into the cage (we had to keep her very confined with Iv fluids and those babies) and the owner was crying....I knew why...I just knew. The dog was full of infection,a teet had kind of exploded and she could not care for her puppies,she was old and as the lady kneeled on the floor and crawled into the cage to hug on her,she was saying,"I'm sorry,I'm sorry".The bottom line really was..this lady was irresponsible and should of had her girl spayed. Her pregnancy killed her beloved old girl. I'm telling you this because I think anyone reading this can maybe gain some insight and learn something about this. The lady only saved 2 puppies (hand raised) and both were for sale. Kinda sad huh? I would hate to have anyone suffer like this lady did and her beloved old dog. She should of knew better and I think lots of times people do stuff for a selfish reason (wanting pups or in your case..your uncle wanting a free pup) and the one hurt in it all is the dog.

I wish you the best...and pray you end the cycle of breeding.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

That's so sad Julie, I'm glad you shared the story.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

^^ that story just breaks my heart, and is the absolute perfect example of why people should not breed their dogs


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I knew the lady adored this dog...there was no question of that...and I tell ya...I cared for her and her puppies as one by one they died and the mother hung on as best as she could. I actually saw this lady snuggled and talking to this dog (you could only kinda she her hind end) and I left the room and kinda cried myself. It was a tragic outcome for all involved. We tried everything to save this mother dog...and nothing further could be done. I have always been a spay/neuter type person and these kind of experiences further enhance my passion about it. 

You'd be surprised how many uneducated people there are out there about the benefits of spaying and neutering. Not only for the owner...but for the overall health of the dog.

When you really think about the nuts and bolts of breeding....although we think our own dogs are perfect,they really aren't....only thee best of thee best should be bred to better the breed. Not only in havanese,but in all breeds. I'd suggest anyone thinking about breeding and not being fully educated,adopt from a shelter or rescue.Save a mother and a pup.:hug:


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## Mountainmotor (Jan 21, 2010)

Has the vet said anything?


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Sad sad story Julie. It's true, most people don't know much about breeding correctly and the impotance of spay and neuter. I think sometimes we are too quick to judge, because this forum has helped educate us. Before I had dogs, I had no idea what puppymills, commercial breeders, hobby breeders, and class B breeders were. I also didn't understand the importance of spay, neuter, and what a quality breeder was! I think we tend to be shocked when someone uneducated posts a thread like this, forgeting that some people really just don't know.

Backyard breeding should be illegal, as well as commercial breeding. 

The main thing is, a lesson was learned and I hope Fifi is ok. I look forward to seeing pictures of the pups and hearing a good outcome. I love puppy pictures, regardless of how they were bred. Afterall, they are still cute little innocent puppies, even if they aren't the healthiest.

One more thing, I really think your vet is to blame too!


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Julie that is the saddest story. You had me in tears.

Linda, I thought she mentioned the vet was her friend, unless I misunderstood.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

inapprop.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Yup, definitely bad advice from the vet! I have heard of some vets here tell people that their pets are 'fine and healthy' and there'd be no problem if they decided to breed them. ARGGH!! These vets should know better!


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

You know, I understand the we all really care and are perhaps better educated than many on these issues. The flip side of the coin, though...is that there are PSA's about spay/neuter your pets on most every TV channel these days. There are countless shows that MANY people watch on channels like Animal Planet, National Geographic and such that all strongly advocate against breeding. You cannot go in place like Petsmart or Petco with seeing and hearing about this.

If you carefully read the posts and then note the lack of response to some of the pointed questions about the past 'breeding' experience, it becomes apparent that the OP HAS done this before, just with other dogs.

You also note that she states she "cannot afford" to spay and neuter her existing pets right now, yet she knowingly went ahead with breeding this dog? I'm sorry, while I agree the vet was negligent, the more I hear the more appalled I am at these actions.

How is she going to afford to dew claws removed and pups vet checked then? How will she afford to feed the pups as they wean? How will she afford deworming and initial vaccinations?

This is a sad and all to typical saga, I'm afraid.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

lfung5 said:


> Backyard breeding should be illegal, as well as commercial breeding.


This is my dream!


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## tabby2 (Jan 19, 2009)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lfung5 
Backyard breeding should be illegal, as well as commercial breeding.


galaxie said:


> This is my dream!


I respectfully disagree with making "backyard breeding" illegal. (As opposed to puppy mills, of course.) I feel as strongly as anyone that, espesh with all the dogs in rescue and shelters, only those who are experienced, knowledgeable and want to improve the breed and who are prepared to put everything possible into raising healthy and well-adjusted puppies should do breedings. Selling puppies on mandatory spay/neuter contracts with follow up and education of the sort mentioned above and by AKC/national and local clubs, however, is the best way to fulfill that, IMHO.

Also, think about how a law against "backyard breeding" would be written: how would a legislator define "responsible breeder"? what gov't employee would decide who met the definition? How would it be enforced?  And, of course, do we really want more government regulation of things that we, as citizens, should be able to handle?

Don't mean to rant but this is one of my "things".


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

The vet probably said the dogs were healthy, go ahead and breed because he thought of the $ he could possibly get from the extra care needed for the mom and pups.
She should have given more information right from her first post.

Whoever gets her puppies should sign a contract stating that the owner care for the puppy and get it fixed by a certain age otherwise give the pup back to her. 
There are plenty of resources for discount spay/neuter.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

tabby2 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by lfung5
> Backyard breeding should be illegal, as well as commercial breeding.
> I respectfully disagree with making "backyard breeding" illegal. (As opposed to puppy mills, of course.) I feel as strongly as anyone that, espesh with all the dogs in rescue and shelters, only those who are experienced, knowledgeable and want to improve the breed and who are prepared to put everything possible into raising healthy and well-adjusted puppies should do breedings. Selling puppies on mandatory spay/neuter contracts with follow up and education of the sort mentioned above and by AKC/national and local clubs, however, is the best way to fulfill that, IMHO.
> ...


They could start with all the proper health testing, not breeding before or after a certain age, not breeding back to back heat cycles, must show dogs etc. Most backyard breeders don't even do these few thing and these are the basics.

Not all citizens are responsible.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Sam375 said:


> The vet probably said the dogs were healthy, go ahead and breed because he thought of the $ he could possibly get from the extra care needed for the mom and pups.
> She should have given more information right from her first post.


I respectfully disagree.

A vet is NOT a breeder. A vet can give an quick overall accessment of the dog's health,and say to the owner that health wise it would be okay(meaning the bitch could probably successfully carry and deliver a litter) but this is WAY different then actually recommending HER to breed the bitch.

It is easy to blame the vet...but the bottom line is SHE is the one who decided to put two dogs together and have them mate.....not the vet. I can not imagine a vet knowing all the ins and outs of every single breed of dog and knowing what a reputable breeder would know about every single aspect of breeder/genetics/indepth health testing etc. They may have specific knowledge of some breeds with regards to things they see over and over....but nothing to the extent that a reputable breeder would know.

In regards to the pocketbook-----most vets have more then their share of clients...I don't think a vet looks at "how much money can I make with more puppies." I think that is ridiculous because truly they make more money and improve the health of a dog by spaying and neutering vs. giving a puppy a shot here and there.Remember---they have an oath for the health of animals,much like a doctor...in fact...more so in my area. My vet is on call 24/7 but try to find a human doctor and he'll let your butt set there and die in an emergency room...we had a NURSE have a heart attack and DIE at our hospital while working. Imagine that? TRUE.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

I pray that Fifi has healthy pups and comes through just fine. 
So many people think it's easy to simply put two cute dogs together and presto! cute pups emerge 63 days later. We see so many adorable litters on this board. What we don't see or hear about are emergency trips to the vet for an expensive C-section to save the mother and babies, or tube feeding a weak baby every hour because he refuses to nurse, or those who simply can't be saved because they aren't strong enough so they die cuddled up to the breeder's heart. These things happen. The breeders on here don't write about it but it's a reality. Maybe if we heard some of the stories like Julie's from those who live them, people might think twice about breeding puppies for friends and family. 
What happens down the road if Fifi has 6 puppies and some of the owners can't keep them. Will they be allowed to be re-homed to just anyone by the owners, or taken to the pound, or will the breeder step up and be responsible for them for the rest of their lives. I know my breeder would She would take my girls back if I couldn't keep them and either re-home them herself or if she couldn't, they would live out their lives at her house (and probably enjoy it since it's Doggy Disneyland over there).


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Okay this thread is just plain disgusting! I am fuming right now!! The vet is a "friend", so this "friend" just told her what she wanted to hear. A REAL vet would not advise someone with any pet to go ahead and breed it. We are all very well aware of all the unwanted pets in shelters that need homes, so please do not try to convince me that this woman was totally impelled to do this out of good intention. It's pure BS in my estimation and if someone is too **** cheap to buy a dog, then they SHOULDN'T get one because how in the hell will they afford any and all vet bills that "responsible" pet owners accrue yearly and regularly, because we keep our pets health at the forefront??? I personally don't care if this comes across BOLDLY but this whole thing smells fishy to me. Too much was left out, and if someone has so much experience breeding dogs then this whole thread should not have been posted in the first place!! Also stating that they "Never had a contract" does not imply that people are free of their responsibility to their beloved pets! 

Breeding is not the only thing to consider as well. Once born, the puppies will need their "around the clock" care, and as they become more independent, as most know, they have their critical socialization period. Will she really take the time to socialize, get them acclimated to things that are necessary for a well rounded balanced dog? Also all the clean up and potty training? This is not a matter of simply getting a male and female together, as any idiot can do that, but something to be weighed carefully. I hope Fifi and her pups are healthy, but all this right now is sounding like it is heading in the wrong direction. 

I bought my Oreo from a breeder, and was on a non-breeding contract, and despite that I was approached by MANY to breed him to their females - even when he was younger than 6 months!! Some offered money! But I actually had a backbone and said NO! I made MANY enemies, but I knew I didn't want to let more puppies come into this world that could possibly be unhealthy or never find a loving home. 

This is very sad and I really REALLY hope you are SINCERE when you say you have learned your lesson. You have already stated you have "experience" breeding, which leads me to believe this won't be your last "havanese" litter.


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## murphymoesmamma (Apr 1, 2009)

This post breaks my heart. I know first hand how irresponsible breeding causes heartache. My daughter, while she still lived at home, had her heart set on a Yorkie. She researched endlessly and then bought her little KoKo. She personally went to pick her up and the breeder had an absolutely beautiful, and extremely clean home. KoKo was no bigger than a minute and the sweetest little pupster.

My daughter worked for me at my company so KoKo was lucky enough to be able to come to work every day with us. When KoKo was 10 months old she started throwing up bile and would have times when she would shake uncontrollably. We took her to the vet and they found that her liver enzymes were sky high. Luckily there is a specialist in MD, we are in PA but the drive was only a few hours. After considerable testing it was discovered that she had a liver shunt but they had to do exploratory surgery to see if it was internal or external. If it was external it could be repaired. Unfortunately it was an internal shunt. They told us that her prognosis was not good but that sometimes a shunt can be controlled by diet. We kept the breeder informed about what was going on but she denied that any of her dogs ever had a problem and maybe she was being truthful. She did do the right thing by saying that Courtney could have another puppy but there was no way were giving up our little princess. She was part of our family. The breeder reluctantly agreed to give my daughter half of what she paid for KoKo and that helped a bit but KoKo's vet bills were astronomical and that amount didn't help much. Actually we only informed her in the hopes that she would be more careful with the breeding as we thought maybe KoKo's mom was a carrier.

KoKo is now almost 5 years old and we have been very blessed that we were able to afford the surgery and the expense of a very costly low protein diet. She is doing wonderfully on the diet even though the original prognosis wasn't good. My point is that unless a breeding pair is tested and you have a buyer who is committed to the expense and well being of their beloved pet it could lead to a very sad experience. We were one of the lucky few who have had a very positive outcome from a situation that caused alot of heartache.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

murphymoesmamma said:


> After considerable testing it was discovered that she had a liver shunt but they had to do exploratory surgery to see if it was internal or external. If it was external it could be repaired. Unfortunately it was an internal shunt. They told us that her prognosis was not good but that sometimes a shunt can be controlled by diet. We kept the breeder informed about what was going on but she denied that any of her dogs ever had a problem and maybe she was being truthful. She did do the right thing by saying that Courtney could have another puppy but there was no way were giving up our little princess. She was part of our family. The breeder reluctantly agreed to give my daughter half of what she paid for KoKo and that helped a bit but KoKo's vet bills were astronomical and that amount didn't help much. Actually we only informed her in the hopes that she would be more careful with the breeding as we thought maybe KoKo's mom was a carrier.
> ....
> 
> We were one of the lucky few who have had a very positive outcome from a situation that caused alot of heartache.


Stories like this are what makes this really sad. Just the possibility of a pup born with health issues is just heartbreaking. You clearly went through so much turmoil. This is why I am very VERY reactive to topics like this.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Julie, I have to say that I am astounded at how many people (who should know better) think their vets are Gods and don't once doubt anything they are told. They don't question a vet. Makes sense when most people haven't a clue about anything related to animal health. I mean, if your vet recommends feeding crappy corn- and wheat-filled kibble, then you'll do it because you don't know any better. One trusts a vet. I agree that almost no vet knows the inside and out of every single breed of dog out there, but people don't realize that. They figure they must know since they are the doctor. People of a certain age, especially, don't question, just as they never question their own family physician.  

Helen, I rage right along with you when I hear stories like this and I do hear them often working where I work, but I try to bite my tongue and take the opportunity to teach and hopefully make a difference. If it were MY store, I'd bitch and jump down the person's throat though!!  

If one person reading all this learns from it and decides not to breed their Hav, then it will be a good thing. I am constantly amazed at how, otherwise intelligent people, don't think twice about mating dogs to have a litter of puppies. All for fun. :rant:


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

I have a friend with a Maltipoo and she wants to breed her! She's already had her first heat and it's driving them crazy, as is the dog because she hasn't been properly house trained, but they're still considering breeding this girl to make some money. (It's my friend's mother who has the dog.) They used to breed dogs years ago and sell them through the newspaper but didn't do any health testing, they were daschaunds. (sp?) They encouraged me to breed Scooter to get one of the pups or for a fee and were shocked when I didn't do it and had him neutered.

So many people think it's ok to breed any dogs! I explained over and over again why I think it's wrong and she listens but doesn't really agree with me. It's very upsetting!!!


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> I have Fifi because of my first havs.


Do you still have fifi's parents or what happened to them?


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## Eva (Jun 20, 2008)

I can't count how many times people have asked me to use Todd to breed their cute little female. 
For one he was neutered at 6 months (Take a look at his back end people..lol) Second, he's not even *close* to breed standard and I signed a neuter contract! Why would I want to add to the overpopulation problem!?! 
He's cute, he's amazing and I would love to have another little guy just like him but there are enough animals out there..I'll take the responsible route if I add to the family. 
It's a little off topic but I have to share a story
My cousin bought his daughter an Alaskan Malamute puppy for her birthday in September.
I knew that it was a bad idea but tried to keep my mouth shut about it...poor little pup is kept in a fenced area outside away from the house,not paid any attention to..she howls constantly and jumps up on the kids and so they don't want to be near her.
I've talked to them about training, even volunteered to "puppy sit" on my days off..but no, they leave her there all alone day after day *sigh* Now they tell me that they are going to "let her" have a litter before they spay her! UGH!!!! 
I don't know how much longer I can take it. 
I find myself avoiding them so that I don't start to rant. :rant:


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

Tell them Eva!


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## karin117 (Mar 29, 2008)

Eva...that story made me cry...


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Eva,
These are often the kinds (not breed specific-but personality/untrained) dogs I get. It's obvious they care about the dog because otherwise I wouldn't be caring for them,but at the same time....you question why in the hel_ isn't this dog neutered or spayed? Why don't they work with it and teach it some manners? It can be very frustrating...and well....sad. People think that having a female have a litter first makes them a better dog. That is ridiculous. Having some one train and working with it makes them a better dog. I had (at work)a hunting dog...kinda cute female..I wasn't afraid of her....but I had this dog several times in a row over the course of a week or two and it would try to bite me as soon as I'd get a leash in my hand. I tried everything I could think of...but she was down right nasty. She bit my shoe :der: and almost took off my hand a few times...but the thing was...free and loose she was hyper and playful etc. She has fear issues and would be very submissive and pee if you touched her. A fear biter. I thought it was so sad because the people have kids and I guess she must be kept outside all the time or something? IDK. They have a cat too...in tact male...sprays all over. Now wth is up with that? These people are well educated with top jobs in our area..you have to wonder what,when and why?


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

Eva said:


> I knew that it was a bad idea but tried to keep my mouth shut about it...poor little pup is kept in a fenced area outside away from the house,not paid any attention to..she howls constantly and jumps up on the kids and so they don't want to be near her.
> I've talked to them about training, even volunteered to "puppy sit" on my days off..but no, they leave her there all alone day after day *sigh* Now they tell me that they are going to "let her" have a litter before they spay her! UGH!!!!
> I don't know how much longer I can take it.
> I find myself avoiding them so that I don't start to rant. :rant:


Maybe you should suggest instead of letting her give birth to more pups to left alone in someones yard, they let her be a part of their family? :rant:


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

eva unfortunately a "friend" and i use that term loosely here has a pretty similar thing going on. she has two german short haired pointers which she refers to as "my husband's hunting dogs." her house is near the elementary school baseball fields and i have often sat watching these dogs pace in their kennels. i see that they are completely bored, howling and barking. i have talked to her about letting them in the house, or at least their heated garage during the bitter winter, and about taking them to my trainer who is "hunting dog" friendly. i've offered to walk these dogs, but to be honest i can't imagine how they would behave on a leash. she's an insane neat freak who has often said they would never be allowed in her house. she got the female as a puppy so the male wouldn't be "lonely." i had assumed that these dogs were not intact dogs. unfortunately, i assumed wrong. the other day i overheard her tell a story about her male dog biting through the chain link fence separating him from their female who was in heat. she laughed about how he would do anything to get to her. honestly, they are basically in the same kennel...i asked her why the hell her dogs were intact, and she said "oh we thought it would be fun to have a litter of puppies. fun for the kids to experience it. we've always planned on having at least one litter." holy ****. i was honestly speechless, which many of you know is a rare thing. as far as i know she hasn't had the pups, but i will not bite my tongue the next time i see her. i will speak my mind even if it means risking our relationship.
honestly, i've come to the conclusion people aren't just ignorant, they are plain old stupid!
after getting posh, i too was asked if i had planned on breeding her. i told folks "no way. i am not an educated breeder or dog show-er, that i'd leave it to the people who were passionate about this endeavor." people couldn't believe it. they'd say, "oh but she's so wonderful. don't you want her to have puppies?" NO! I don't! actually, posh was first offered to us as a show dog in a co-ownership contract. she would have been bred after her championship and health testing were complete, and the breeder would have either taken her during the whelping or she could have had an area set up here. HOWEVER, i did not feel at that time that i could handle taking care of a pregnant bitch or having her leave me and i did really think of all the heartbreak that can happen when a dog has puppies (pups die, moms die, c-section emergencies).
i guess what i'm saying is enough with the "i didn't knows" and the "blushing." stop being selfish and just do the right thing by your dogs. if you don't have the money to spay or neuter than maybe you need to save the money by eating out less or gettting rid of your cable t.v. what a sad sad situation.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

Or if you can't afford to properly care for a dog then DON'T get one!!! Seems very simple to me.


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

exactly ann.


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## Eva (Jun 20, 2008)

I admit that at one time I was one of "those people" that owned a large dog and kept him outdoors because he was "unmanageable".
I was in over my head with two young children and a husband that objected to having indoor pets and so I let our lab,Copper, spend over half of his life outdoors...on a chain...with not nearly enough attention because it was "easier" than arguing with my husband and putting the time into his training 
I was riddled with guilt the entire time and honestly, talking about it now is really difficult because he deserved *SO* much better and I knew it! 
I knew it and still I let him live for years that way. 
I think that Copper is a huge part of the reason that I foster now. I'm trying to make up for the things that I didn't change in Copper's life by helping dogs like him...the forgotten ones..to learn what life *should* be like.
Seeing my cousin's family live in a huge, three story, log home with their big stone fireplace and their nice warm beds while their dog lays alone all day and night in her pen brings back all of the memories of what I didn't do right and I hurt for her...for not having a family that loves her as much as they should. 
I think of someone treating Todd that way and I swear I would beat them senseless if they tried..he's not "just" a dog..he's a living, breathing, social being with the *need* and the *right* to be loved and to be part of a family.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

So many, TOO many, sad sad situations. Amy, I too would risk a friendship by speaking my mind. I just can't keep quiet when it comes to animals being neglected.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Oh well. All of Abby's posts are deleted so I guess this will end up being a one-sided discussion. I still hope others can learn from it and I hope Abby doesn't become too fearful of asking questions. After all, Fifi's and her puppies' health is important.


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## PepperToast (Oct 27, 2008)

OK, here it goes. I slip in and out of this forum on a regular basis but have backed off considerably from posting anything. This forum is an amazing resource for havanese owners as it was intended I am sure, but I have to say it is also HUGE (I mean HUGE) turn off as well.

Clearly the majority of people here feel that breeding doggies should be left up to breeders (for health testing, experience, betterment of the breed etc). I strongly feel that this "creed" should be emailed to all potential new members. I really do. Otherwise people who don't hold this view, through ignorance or otherwise are walking into a BIG BAD TRAP. 

The OP started this thread with a real concern. A valid concern and she came to this forum for advice. Where is she now? There is no way any normal human being would stick around for any more punishment from certain subsequent posters. She would have to be the dumbest person alive with low self esteem. It has happened before and I have commented then and it continues to happen. It is one thing when people post their posts re: breeding (that it should only be left to breeders). But then they go on and get personal and cover their unkind words by saying its just how they feel and they are only interested in the health of the breed but truly you are coming across as super judgmental. 

I have kept in contact (personally) with other people that this has happened to and let me tell you, they came here truly seeking help. They did not know better. They were happy to have been educated about potential health issues etc but the lashing that they sustained from your "honest feelings' posts were so hurtful that they were completely turned off and it had the opposite effect of what they were intended. I am telling you this not to be judgmental but to inform you of the consequences of your actions.

This forum is a tremendous opportunity that I believe is being wasted. I don't begrudge your passion. A lot of you are rescuers (as am I) and so therefore see the horrendous effects of improper or downright criminal breeding. I will say, however that the people who post on here for advice are most likely normal people like you and I who don't know any better. They love their dogs as much as you and care for their dogs as much as you. You have to admit this breeding dogs that have been scientifically tested and physically judged is a rather anti-normal or anti-natural way of perpetuating a species. It is a world that most people have not been exposed to. It is not fair to people to assume that they should have known better or are deliberately destroying the canine race.

Please, remember kindness, you don't have to agree with someone to help them. Perhaps when there is a post that pops up like this, someone can post with a direct link, something like a We Believe the Best Breeding Practice that is a very careful, tactful statement. This would allow you to accomplish your goals of education and betterment of this wonderful breed but also allow the person to get the answers they need for the sake of their dog and its puppies if it is after the fact. If it is before, then perhaps, because they have not been publicly attacked (ie writing harsh words and then defending them because it is your feelings or hiding behind wanting to protect the breed) they can be gently with compassion and consideration, be turned around. 

In past reactions, attacked people had told me that it took them back to high school and they were traumatized. I really thought that this was important enough to share. I can't believe that you would want people thinking of people on this forum this way. I know the majority of people here don't treat people that way but those who do, you are doing more damage than help. 

Truthfully, I have not written this to hurt, I care as much about havanese as anyone else and as I see it, in this area, this forum is failing havanese but more importantly we are destroying and hurting other human beings and so I post.


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

pepper toast- good point, I have had some negative comments before.
I too am just looking for advice and information, not looking to be beat up on, it's one thing to try an educate a person its another to "yell" at them via this forum.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

I agree that this person was looking more for an opportunity than information or she wouldn't have disappeared the way she did. 

This is a public forum, I don't know what she expected. Everyone was honest and I don't feel that she was treated badly. Sometimes honesty hurts. Ever heard, "Be careful what you ask for as you just might get it!"?


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Posh's Mom said:


> they'd say, "oh but she's so wonderful. don't you want her to have puppies?"


That comment/question has always boggled my mind. My usual response is, "The quickest way to uglify your wonderful (cute, beautiful or whatever other adjective is used) bitch is to breed her and let her raise puppies."


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Anytime you are on a public forum you are going to get the good with the bad. You can't expect everyone on the forum to look at an issue or question or problem with rose colored glasses on and only post the flowery good comments that they want to hear.

I actually do not regret posting anything I did on this thread whether it ruffled her feathers or whatever the case may be. I know I'll sleep very well tonight telling her the truth then I would if I would of lied and made up some sweet remark about her breeding dogs that shouldn't be bred.....she is a back yard breeder...plain and simple. I don't feel bad calling a spade a spade.

In fact..I'm proud of everyone who posted their honest feelings about this issue. *A dis-service is done not by speaking your mind and telling the truth........but by sugar coating and making nice to save face with a very serious issue.*


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## PepperToast (Oct 27, 2008)

I just wanted to pop in quickly and post that my computer is starting to fail and I am having to take drastic steps to save all my photos etc before it is completely gone. I am aware that I have posted something that will get comments and don't want to seem that I posted and ran. So... that is what is up. Hopefully by tomorrow, I'll have backed up all my important stuff and then can run this computer into the ground and honor your comments with a reply.


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

Well, I'm sorry if someone's feelings were hurt, but quite honestly, she was treated much better than people have been on other pet forums I have been on. No one severely flamed her. No one really 'called her out'. No one called her offensive names. No one got ugly with her. 

She gave snippets of information and was evasive when further questions were asked. By the answers that were given, the problems quickly became obvious and posts were made in an honest effort to educate and hopefully encourage her to not have more pups. She has two intact Havs of the opposite sex in the household. 

I did not say one word I regret. I live in the heart of prime puppy mill territory. My husband's small home town has the misfortune of being home to the largest puppy brokerage company in the nation. What I see around here breaks my heart.

If we sit here and turn a blind eye in order to 'help' and not hurt anyone's feelings, we are perpetuating a huge problem. I, for one, will not do this.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

PepperToast said:


> Clearly the majority of people here feel that breeding doggies should be left up to breeders (for health testing, experience, betterment of the breed etc). I strongly feel that this "creed" should be emailed to all potential new members. I really do.


Actually, dogs will breed themselves as long as they have the opportunity. I believe that humans that allow domesticated dogs to stay intact and have the ability to breed should do so only when they are willing to take care of every puppy that is born of that relationship - staying in touch with the families, bearing financial cost of congenital issues... and absolutely, to better the breed, yes.

Anyone who knows me knows that I encourage shelter and rescue adoption _first_. There are too many living breathing creatures out there being euthanized all across the country because their parents were allowed to mate and no one cared about the offspring or what happened to them.

ETA: Being domesticated creatures (vs. wild) means that _humans_ are responsible for what happens. For that reason, no one should apologize for stating their opinions in order to attempt to stop future poor choices.


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## Leah (Jan 12, 2010)

I agree with PepperToast. I felt a little beat up when I posted a couple questions in the Confirmation section. I would have posted the question in the breeders section if I had scrolled down far enough.

Unless someone knows the OP personally, we don't know her level of experience with dogs. It seemed to me when I asked a question, it was assumed that I knew nothing about anything and had recently arrived on this planet. I'm sorry, I'm just being honest. I had to defend the breeder that I bought my Havenese girls from because several people assumed that she was running a puppy mill. It couldn't be further from the truth. I know from talking to someone whether they are an ethical breeder or not. I've been around these people all my life and I know how they think.

I, at my mother's side, have been involved with breeding and showing dogs longer than almost anyone here. Although, my experience in the dog business ended almost ten years ago, it should not be discounted. It has been a rude awakening for me to be shut out and treated like someone who cannot be trusted to be ethical in the way I choose to care for a pure bred dog. In the space of six weeks, I will have spent $4,000 on three puppies because of the quality in a dog and breeder that I demand.

My mother only bred Shetland Sheepdogs with the goal of producing a champion quality puppy. She was successful many times, but there were always pet quality puppies. She was very careful who she sold puppies to and sometimes gave puppies to close friends to ensure the puppies would have a good home. The pets from the last litter, she kept until they died at age 16. She never bred a bitch with the intention of making money from the breeding.

While I'm digging my grave, I'll bring up something I noticed when I was looking at websites of a people who post on this forum. Why would someone sell a champion bitch because she is over five years old and is at the end of her brood bitch career? I don't understand that. I got the distinct impression that was the reason she was being sold. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I'm talking to a select few. I apologize if I have offened anyone.


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Was the question ever answered if "Chulo" was the sire of this litter? Was he not a rescue?

For those of you that think some of the members were too hard on this poster please search this members other threads. She was not new to the feelings of this forum. Those of us that do any rescues at all know the results of the irresponsible dog owners or caregivers. I for one feel if someone has the mental capacity to find this forum they should have heard the terms “Spay and Neuter”. Accidents do happen, but when you state that you have a friend, relative or whoever that wants a puppy and you let your dogs have puppies for that reason, someone needs to give you some real eye opening opinions and advice..


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Sandi, she said she used a male of someone else.

Leah, I have no idea which breeder you are talking about, but I intend to do the same. Most of us don't collect dogs and can't have every one of our retired breeding stock around our homes due to limitations (city restrictions or whatever).

Sandi, I totally agree with your response. That was well said.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I often see retired dogs placed in loving homes by their breeders. I don't see anything wrong with it. I was very tempted to try and get one very recently.


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## Leah (Jan 12, 2010)

Havtahava said:


> Sandi, she said she used a male of someone else.
> 
> Leah, I have no idea which breeder you are talking about, but I intend to do the same. Most of us don't collect dogs and can't have every one of our retired breeding stock around our homes due to limitations (city restrictions or whatever).
> 
> Sandi, I totally agree with your response. That was well said.


I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say "collecting" DOGS. The champions that my mother owned were also our house pets. They were part of the family and opposed to a business asset. She would have no more turned one of her champions over to a new family than she would me. That's what I see cold about it.

The serious breeders I know in Shetland Sheepdogs are very selective where they live so they don't have to worry about city ordinances. It may mean long drives to work, etc., but that's a minor inconvenience.


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## Leah (Jan 12, 2010)

SMARTY said:


> Accidents do happen, but when you state that you have a friend, relative or whoever that wants a puppy and you let your dogs have puppies for that reason, someone needs to give you some real eye opening opinions and advice..


I never said that.


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

I will butt in here- as I am the one selling the 5yr old retired dog. Being a breeder, I can't be a hoarder. I live in a residential neighborhood in a 1300 sq foot house. We have lived here for almost 15 years. I have raised my children here, built my marriage here and I have many friends on my street.
Are you saying I should move so I can keep more dogs?
I know my limits- especially physical limits. I only keep as many dogs that I know I can properly care for. My dogs live right here involved in my life every day- they sleep on my couch and lay at my feet. I groom them myself- each and every week. I brush them, bathe them and love them. I _cannot_ keep every dog that I have bred or that I have raised and chosen to rehome. (At this point, I think I would have about 15+ dogs if I did that). 
I have successfully rehomed quite a few older puppies and adults. They have gone to wonderful homes. I feel as though it's a win-win situation for everyone. There are so many families out there that are looking for a Havanese, yet don't want to go thru puppyhood. 
What's so bad about that?


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## PepperToast (Oct 27, 2008)

Ok, my computer is backed up. So, the discussion has moved around a bit. I am not really sure if there is anything for me to address in regards to my statement. I will add this. 

This is a public forum and I am as much of a member as anyone else. I love havanese and dogs in general as much as anyone else. Our collective voice matters. All of our posts impact people looking at havanese or owning havanese and bear weight in their decision. Knowing this, I don't feel comfortable sitting by and watching people getting cyber bullied. If you are an adult, especially one that has to sit down and type the words out on your computer and press post, then surely you can work out a response whereby you do not agree with a person but not personally attack them. Passion does not have to equal persecution. How do you win over people? Persuasion or force. 

I don't doubt that you will defend your actions saying that you don't think it was too harsh. You would have to defend or you would feel guilt. But make no mistake, you are hurting people, real live people who, most likely with a little compassion, might have stuck around long enough to learn a few very valuable things. 

I have been exposed to the full spectrum of canine procreation from as wild as you can get (sled dogs in the arctic, some by wolves but not on purpose) to the most insane, controlling, creepiest breeder you could ever imagine. I am not ignorant in that regard. I may or may not share the same 'who should breed' ideas as the most vocal of you here on this forum. My suggestion was merely to post some sort of 'We Believe'. A very non confrontational way of educating people who come to this forum and a fair warning. 

I will repeat, I love my dogs. I love responsible owners. I advocate for that all the time in my 'real life'. I am passionate about educating people about the responsibilities of a dog owner. I also can not stand by and say nothing when I think people are treating another person poorly. It is a moral I personally hold and I will not back down from.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Emmy is such a beauty. How lucky someone is going to be. I wish it could have been me.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Leah said:


> I never said that.


Leah, Sandi was referring to the original poster, Abby, when she said that. Abby claimed these things in one of her very first posts, if not the first one. We'll never be able to go back and see any of her comments though, since she went and deleted them all.


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Leah said:


> I never said that.


I wasn't referring to you but to the original poster.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

As an aside, I would imagine that re-homing an "older" dog (and 4, 5 or 6 yrs. is really not old when they live 15-20 yrs.) must break a breeder's heart! Those breeders that I know (here and elsewhere) that really love what they are doing and feel passionately about it, become so very attached to *all* their dogs. "Giving one up" has to be a very difficult decision to make. As Katie and Kimberly have said, there are many valid reasons for doing this and I think that the dog being re-homed as well as the new family she/he will be a part of are benefiting from the breeder's practical thinking. (That's how we got Sammy and I'm very happy his previous owners decided to re-home him.  )


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

MopTop Havanese said:


> I will butt in here- as I am the one selling the 5yr old retired dog. Being a breeder, I can't be a hoarder. I live in a residential neighborhood in a 1300 sq foot house. We have lived here for almost 15 years. I have raised my children here, built my marriage here and I have many friends on my street.
> Are you saying I should move so I can keep more dogs?
> I know my limits- especially physical limits. I only keep as many dogs that I know I can properly care for. My dogs live right here involved in my life every day- they sleep on my couch and lay at my feet. I groom them myself- each and every week. I brush them, bathe them and love them. I _cannot_ keep every dog that I have bred or that I have raised and chosen to rehome. (At this point, I think I would have about 15+ dogs if I did that).
> I have successfully rehomed quite a few older puppies and adults. They have gone to wonderful homes. I feel as though it's a win-win situation for everyone. There are so many families out there that are looking for a Havanese, yet don't want to go thru puppyhood.
> What's so bad about that?


RIGHT ON KATIE!!!

Leah, Havanese are NOT like the breed dog your mother bred. Havanese are suppose to be "companion" dogs, not herding dogs. Since they are companion dogs, they are not to be kept in kennels but rather be a part of someone's loving home. They are not to be kept outside all the time, but rather be inside.

Your opinion/attitude is one I don't agree with. You are basically stating that a breeder of any breed dog should keep every one of the dogs they chose to become a champion, do all the health testing on and breed them, then retire them to your home forever no matter what the laws are where one might live nor the financial constraints. Sorry, can't agree with that. That would mean my passion would be taken away from me. Many families benefit from a breeder having to place a dog they have retired from their breeding program, the dog benefits too. Is it easy for the breeder to do that? Heck no it's not!!! That is why in most cases the breeder is VERY picky where those dogs would be placed.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

PepperToast;308783
Knowing this said:


> Peppertoast--
> Are you referring to me here? Who are you referring to as a cyber bully?
> 
> If this is me you are specifically referring to--I'll tell you that I am the furthest thing from a cyber bully you are gonna find and I also feel passionate about spaying and neutering your pets which results in a much healthier pet in the long run. Where I work I see some real sad things and if sharing those stories is not a good idea then say so....I happen to think people can learn from others mistakes.
> ...


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## PepperToast (Oct 27, 2008)

Julie said:


> Peppertoast--
> Are you referring to me here? Who are you referring to as a cyber bully?


No, I am not.


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## tabby2 (Jan 19, 2009)

Clearly the topics brought up in this thread have brought up a number of issues about which people are passionate and that are very personal and people responded accordingly. I do not believe anyone responded maliciously or with an intention to be hurtful. 

May the woman who originally posted have felt that people were being critical or have become upset? Of course. Could some of the posts have been phrased more gently? Well, of course, that's always the case -- and, of course, one of the shortcomings of electronic communication is that you don't get to see facial expressions and hear tone of voice. But if you come to a specialized forum like this and make statements like the original poster (which, viewed most favorably to her, indicate that at best she was knowingly uninformed and relying on luck, with her dogs paying for her lack of judgment), you can't expect a positive response. 

Were any of the posts inappropriate or objectionable in tone or content? The only ones that struck me that way were the ones accusing unnamed people of cyberbullying and of being "cold" in regard to rehoming their dogs. 

Cyber bullying is a loaded term and flinging it about is itself unkind and objectionable. If someone feels someone else's post crosses a line, a better response would be to PM that person and then to simply post something more general about moderation for everyone to read. 

As to the comment about breeders being 'cold' when they rehome an older dog that's retired from the show ring or from breeding, I would like to hope that that was something said in the heat of the moment. Whether the underlying point was that it's cold to ever rehome an adult Hav or that the breeder is dumping the poor Hav b/c the breeder feels there's nothing more to be gained from the Hav or something else, the gist is that the breeder isn't acting in the best interest of their dog -- that's quite a leap and offensive to me and unfair to the many very responsible and caring people (on the Forum and not) who rehome in a careful and loving way that results in happy Havs and delighted new owners. (And, no, I am not a breeder; I'm just a happy pet owner.) It's perfectly valid to say that you wouldn't be able to relinquish one of your dogs, but not to ascribe disinterest, selfishness and worse to those who are able to do so.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Katie, kudos to you for knowing your limits and taking care to make matches with families who are seeking non-puppy Havanese. I get about 12 inquiries a month for adult Havanese. There are some wonderful people who would love to have one of these dogs without going through puppyhood. There is _nothing_ cold about it.


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

Wow...cyber bullying? This was viewed in that light? That is amazing to me. I've been on forums where I have seen true vendettas and malicious attacks launched at other members and this did not even come close to what would meet those criteria! I've been online and involved with online forums, groups and clear back to the old days of bbs systems in the early to mid 1990's, so I feel I would recognize cyber bullying if I saw it. I have left many communities for those very type of attacks. I read countless pages of posts here before I ever made my first post and certainly would never have joined if I felt it was that type of place.

I also do not think anyone here was defending their words or actions as they had nothing to defend, rather they were attempting to explain why they felt the way they did and made the statements they did.

My word...I am absolutely stunned and frankly, rather dismayed.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Jane, your statement was so well thought out and stated beautifully.


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

definition of bullying from Webster's:
Bullying is an act of repeated aggressive behavior in order to intentionally hurt another person, physically or mentally. Bullying is characterized by an individual behaving in a certain way to gain power over another person.

i don't think i've ever seen that here, even in very heated areas such as the politics thread.

i absolutely agree with what jane has posted. it is so easy to misconstrue or take offense or sound like a total jerk not meaning to on the internet.

i also think the internet veil gives "little" people the "courage" to say things they would never be able to say face to face, it empowers them, and allows the cowards of the world to be really nasty.

maybe some of you think of me that way. i know i've said things that people have taken wrong, and i've also said things people disagreed with. meanwhile, i guess that is what i love about being a part of a free country where i can have an open dialogue with many people from different mindsets, economic situations, etc...

i think the cyberbullying comment is a bit of a red herring for what should be the focus of this thread.

in order to grow and evolve as humans, to feed the "soul of the world" we need to love and do our very best. the "easy" or "cheap" route which endangers or excuses us in not going to contribute to anything, it's just going to perpetuate the slanted beliefs so many folks have about attaining a purebred. i can't tell you how many of my close "progressive" and "enlightened" friends i have had to defend myself against. most of these folks believe that getting a purebred dog from a breeder, and here they have no distinction between reputable breeders like kimberly or katie or the puppy shop down the road, is wrong. i have assured them that breeders such as kimberly or katie or kathy are folks that do a TON for rescue, place their dogs with folks they know won't put them into shelters (because they have a back up plan in their contracts that say they will take the dog back for any reason for the life of the dog), and who are passionate about creating the best representatives in the breed possible. it is very hard to educate even the educated because of situations like this...

look, i'm not miss richy pants, even if it seems like i may be from whatever you've garnered here on this forum or online places. i had to save for posh so i didn't literally take food out of my kids' mouths. i'm creative about where we spend our money, and i spent a year and half saving and researching before we got posh. i wanted to make sure i had the money to buy from a responsible breeder, to spay and continue yearly vet care (including a yearly eye exam), spend money on dog obedience classes and agility training, feed her a quality food, and take care of her grooming needs after she became a part of our family.

we all mistakes, we all make choices. i've made bad choices and big mistakes. however, if we don't learn from our mistakes or if people sit idly by and don't force us to change, we won't.

they're not mistakes, they're learnings.


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## j.j.'s mom (Aug 16, 2009)

i am one of the lucky ones to have the priviledge of being the new mom to an adult havanese who was retired from the show ring.. i would have not been able to give the proper care to a puppy with my work schedule. j.j. has filled a void in my life that was left by the tragic loss of my s.o. to a very aggressive prostate cancer. 5 months from diagnosis to being gone forever. and before the dx we were talking about getting a dog.
we both lost our cocker spaniels within a year of each other and we were ready for another dog.
and if david were here, he would say of j.j., "what a sweet little doggie"
so instead of david snuggling on the coach watching tv with me, i have j.j.
so cheers and thanks to the breeders that have adults dogs to rehome.
words would never be enough.
j.j. and marcia.. so happy together!!!


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## mintchip (Apr 19, 2007)

j.j.'s mom said:


> i am one of the lucky ones to have the priviledge of being the new mom to an adult havanese who was retired from the show ring.. i would have not been able to give the proper care to a puppy with my work schedule. j.j. has filled a void in my life that was left by the tragic loss of my s.o. to a very aggressive prostate cancer. 5 months from diagnosis to being gone forever. and before the dx we were talking about getting a dog.
> we both lost our cocker spaniels within a year of each other and we were ready for another dog.
> and if david were here, he would say of j.j., "what a sweet little doggie"
> so instead of david snuggling on the coach watching tv with me, i have j.j.
> ...


I agree Marcia!


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## CacheHavs (Aug 2, 2007)

As a breeder on here as well I feel the need to say something too. I do not know all that was said by the original poster, but with what I have read up to this point, I do not see anywhere where there is cyber bullying going on. 
Further more I have to disagree about re-homing an older Hav as being “cold”. My Havs are my pets and family first and they all live in the house and underfoot. I choose to show and breed my Havs to hopefully better our wonderful breed. I do not breed with money in mind as when you truly breed for the betterment of the breed you are lucky if you even break even. I hold onto my puppies for as long as I need to, to be sure that they have the best home possible, I don’t just let them go to any one who can write a check for x amount of dollars, and all of my dogs are fully health tested as well as my puppies have a start on their health testing before they ever leave to their new homes. 
I feel that if I kept every dog that I bred I would not have the time that I need to devote to each one of them and that is not fair to them nor me. 
I have re-homed many retired dogs and I still to this day keep in touch with all of their homes. I will tell you these dogs are very happy where they are, in fact when they see me they are very excited to see me, but they are more happy to go home with their family that I chose for them. It makes me feel good to know that they are getting the retirement life that they deserve rather than the selfish one that I could make by keeping them. I also inform anyone who gets a dog from me that the dog can come back to me at any time if they are unable to keep it for any reason. Like Katie had stated I too know my limitations and where I live the whole county has a dog limit and we are in a rural area, so it is not easy for us to just pick up and move when mine and my husbands’ jobs are here.
It is not easy for me to give up one of my dogs, but I do it because I love them and want what is best for them, and as Kathy also stated, Many families benefit from a breeder having to place a dog they have retired from their breeding program, and the dog benefits too. And yes I am VERY PICKY as to where my dogs will be placed.


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## PepperToast (Oct 27, 2008)

Argg, I am so frustrated with my computer and I apologize. I actually am now borrowing a computer for this post so I can complete my thoughts thoroughly. I am finding that mine is causing me to lose whole posts and starting to fail before I get a whole post thoughtfully completed.

When I wrote the cyber bully statement I was not referring to the OP or this thread. It was a general statement from certain threads over the course of time. But it was also an exaggeration to draw out a point that you all were able to make better than me in your much longer posts. I am sure that NO ONE HERE intended to cyber bully. I will say that again - *I am sure that was never your intent*. Regardless, some previous posters felt that way (that that had happened to them). I have not been in contact with the OP personally. This is the exact point that I was trying to make. I believe we are all here for the love of havanese but in this thread, I feel, that message was not able to shine through the strong emotion.

Some people felt I was targeting them and I absolutely was not referring to anyone in particular at all. But you can see how our posts can easily be misread etc. If people felt attacked by that one statement by me then you can truly see how other people can feel attacked when more than one person is posting. But that is a red herring. I don't want that to be the focus of what I am trying to accomplish here.

Listen, and I am only speaking to my statements. I really truly only wanted to highlight this fact , sometimes people's passion for havanese comes across too strong to the detriment of the human being. Not that I believe those people are intentionally doing it. If I was working for a cause I believed in but was unintentionally working against myself because of my passion, I would want to know so that I could do a better job of furthering my cause.

The majority of threads communicate what a wonderful place this is so effectively.

My type of rescue is to contact people one by one who have disturbing posts on Craigslist ie must get rid of my dog because my boyfriend does not like him, or adverts for litters of puppies clearly from parents without health testing etc. I contact them and will literally spend hours and hours emailing them, on the phone, visiting their homes, taking their dogs to the vet for them etc. I try to educate them about health, teach them how to train their own dogs, pay to spay or neuter their dogs. Anything I can do to stop future breedings (with them understanding why), keep the dog in the home (if it is safe) or help them find a good permanent home if it does not work out. I will take their dog and work with it if they need. Or keep the dog for a month while they try to find a place where they can have a dog. Or, if I see that I can not 'convert them' I will try to get them to give me the dog so I can find a good home. So you can see why I would have loved for the OP to have stuck around for a while. It takes LOTS of patience and tact but it works. Also, then we gain a fellow educator and she or he can 'infect' the people she knows.

I hope I am being clearer now. I really do. But if I am not I will leave you with this - all I am saying is coming from a good place inside of me. I am not angry, I am not trying to be mean (I guess I am coming across that way  ) I love havanese, I want to be part of a solution in a way that people will feel empowered not destroyed.


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

ah, I should be lucky enough to someday be approved to be a retirement home for one of these special companions. One of these days....


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

tabby2 said:


> Clearly the topics brought up in this thread have brought up a number of issues about which people are passionate and that are very personal and people responded accordingly. I do not believe anyone responded maliciously or with an intention to be hurtful.
> 
> May the woman who originally posted have felt that people were being critical or have become upset? Of course. Could some of the posts have been phrased more gently? Well, of course, that's always the case -- and, of course, one of the shortcomings of electronic communication is that you don't get to see facial expressions and hear tone of voice. But if you come to a specialized forum like this and make statements like the original poster (which, viewed most favorably to her, indicate that at best she was knowingly uninformed and relying on luck, with her dogs paying for her lack of judgment), you can't expect a positive response.
> 
> ...


Very well stated Jane. The hard part with electronic communication is as you stated, there isn't tone of voice nor facial expression to go with the written word. Also, on a forum as this, several people are responding to the same question and saying the same thing differently so reading so many responses to one question can seem a bit overwhelming.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

PepperToast said:


> I am sure that NO ONE HERE intended to cyber bully. I will say that again - *I am sure that was never your intent*.
> 
> The intent wasn't there,isn't there,and has NEVER been there in my opinion--period. There has never been anyone cyber bullying on this forum. As a moderator myself.....I would have to block that person or intervene in some fashion. MM would never allow this on the forum,nor have me as a moderator if she even thought such a thing.
> 
> ...


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Wow, this thread has really gotten interesting since the start. But alot of good viewpoints and information. 

I saw that the original poster, Abby Gomez, is actually only 19yrs old. So I'm assuming it's probably her parents doing the breeding of these dogs now and in the past. And her 'uncle' already seems to have a havanese. (or one of them anyways..) lol
Amazing the stuff you can find on the net these days..

Ryan


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

Beamer said:


> Wow, this thread has really gotten interesting since the start. But alot of good viewpoints and information.
> 
> I saw that the original poster, Abby Gomez, is actually only 19yrs old. So I'm assuming it's probably her parents doing the breeding of these dogs now and in the past. And her 'uncle' already seems to have a havanese. (or one of them anyways..) lol
> Amazing the stuff you can find on the net these days..
> ...


Ryan you are such a little sooper snooper! :spy: ound:


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

update--I have chatted a bit with Abby and Fifi is eating now and doing well.:thumb:

This thread needs to be closed---so unless you have something very "pressing" it will be soon.

Thank you.


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

Julie said:


> update--I have chatted a bit with Abby and Fifi is eating now and doing well.:thumb:
> 
> This thread needs to be closed---so unless you have something very "pressing" it will be soon.
> 
> Thank you.


I'm glad to hear you've spoken with Abby and that Fifi is doing well. eace:

Close 'er down girl!


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

:closed_2:She has asked me too and I think this thread has run it's course.:closed_2:


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