# Meeting with the Trainer



## Ellie NY (Aug 27, 2010)

Our first meeting with the trainer was this Saturday and I promised I'd give some feedback to others. To begin with, the issues I wanted the trainer to address were:
- Quiet command/no barking while in the Xpen when I leave the room
- Barking at my husband
- General commands including "here", "sit", "stay", "go to bed" and walking on a loose leash

This trainer uses positive motivation so she used a lot of treats to get Eli to comply. Seems Eli is VERY motivated by food and, according to the trainer, a surprisingly quick learner. I just think the old adage "the way to a man's heart is through his stomach" applies to this typical little guy. :biggrin1:

First, she nicely pointed out that I hadn't created an environment where Eli really loved his crate and Xpen. She believes he may seeing them as a form of punishment rather than as his happy place. She told me that everything that's really positive should be associated with his pen. So, I moved his water and food bowl inside. She also encouraged me to give him a variety of treats and toys (rotated often so he doesn't get bored) in his Xpen. In a few days I've seen some improvement with the time he voluntarily spends in his Xpen.

She also told me Eli has to work for everything; that a busy dog is a happy dog. So, at feeding time, rather than give him a bowl with food I should stuff a Kong or hollow marrow bone with a mixture of wet and dry food (preferrably frozen for a few minutes to harden) This is ALWAYS how he should be fed - for the rest of his life! I have tried it and he simply ignores the Kong. I've also tried stuffing the Kong with his favorite liver treats (when I put him to bed for the night, leave for any time or try to get him back to sleep in the mornings) but he ignores those. He's either very lazy or just not interested in Kongs. I'm not sure if I will continue to pursue this. If others have experience with this please advise!

Also, he may not be interested in his food because I now use lots of treats in our training sessions (sit, stay, etc...I'm happy to write more about this if others are interested.) I've noticed that he now passes smelly gas (he loves cheese!) and is *always* looking for a treat whenever he does anything I ask! He begged for food while we were having dinner for the first time last night!

All in all, I see results but I'm not totally convinced using treats all the time is the best way to go. Maybe it's something I'll do in the very beginning until he has reliable recall and phase out slowly (but not altogether) so I'm not rewarding him every single time with food.

Unfortunately, we have regressed in one area. I used to put him to sleep for the night around 10PM and he woke up between 5- 6 AM. For the past two nights he's woken up around 3 AM. I've let him out to do his business but he still wakes up again between 5 - 6 AM. I think he's learned that at night barking for attention works (by the way, it's usually not more than one bark as I try to get downstairs when he begins to stir). First time this happened I let him out and he did pee-pee at 3 AM. I gave him a Kong with treats to keep him busy and put him back in his Xpen. I ignored his barking at 5 AM thinking he didn't really need to go again. I came down around 6:30 AM and found he did poo in his Xpen and the Kong was untouched! I'm very frustrated with all this and at a loss. I wasn't happy with the 5 AM wake-up but this is the pits!


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

Sounds like you've taken in a lot of information - all of it applicable and worthwhile....and...at the same time...if it were me I'd likely suggest narrowing your efforts on the one or two most important things.

Like you, when we first got Kipling I read a lot and tried a lot. What I learned (and I'm by no means a trainer...just a first time dog owner now 16 months down the road), is that training comes over time. 

With Kipling the main focus was house training, and crate. We also started puppy classes and in those classes we focused on sit, settle down, eventually stay and walking on a loose lead. 

I was surprised at how long it took to get any kind of consistency in Kipling for the commands - especially recall and sit/stay. 

To share our own experiences......when he was a new puppy we worked very hard on the housetraining - he had no freedom...we watched him VERY closely. We also worked on socializing him - meet lots of people and dogs.

I think those two things are critical.

Once we began to trust him more then it became more fun to have him around...we weren't constantly worried he was going to pee. 

We took three rounds of puppy class - beginner, intermediate and a more advanced outdoor class.

We STILL reinforce the same basic commands we were learning on day one - by way of example, we have just now started to really focus on sit/stay - all of us including two kids, DH and I use it throughout the day whenever it makes sense. Kipling must sit/stay before he comes out of his crate now..this is new - we were not always doing it. When DH goes upstairs for coffee Kipling used to follow him. He must now sit/stay until DH comes back downstairs - also new. DD is especially good at this - she treats him with low cal treats but always after he does what he is asked to do - at the moment sit/stay. I do not let him outside to potty anymore until he has performed sit/stay and then gets the ok command to go out.

We are focused here because we do not want him to dash out the front door when we open it. It's a safety thing.

But if you'd told me we'd wait till he was well over a year to get serious on that one command I'd have said no way...I guess for us it takes time to nail one thing and move onto the next.

Regarding the food and treats - it's really hard to potty train if food is not given at regular intervals...if it were me, I'd go back to feeding morning, noon and night and regulate the need to potty.

Hope this is not too long-winded...


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## marlowe'sgirl (Jun 17, 2010)

Sounds like you're on the right track. My trainer also uses positive reinforcement, but - like you thought - she said to phase it out slowly and use treats as if you were a Vegas slot machine. You pay out rarely, but it's a enough to keep people gambling. Also, how big of treats are you using? I use half a TicTac size - so it's more of a taste than a snack - we go through maybe a quarter a stick of string cheese during a day. That's more than enough to say good job and not enough to ruin a meal.

As far as feeding - how familiar is your trainer with Havs? They are notoriously finicky eaters - often skipping meals just for the heck of it. Now that my Hav is reliably housetrained, I just leave a cup of food out during the day (like I do for my cat). Some days he finishes it by night, other days he doesn't. If I'm around all day, I notice he'll eat about half sometime in the morning and the other half sometime in the evening. As for the Kong - my Hav only cares about it if it's filled with peanut butter or cheese and sometimes not even then. He'd rather chew his bully stick.

I don't know if I can help you with early morning wake-ups. The only time I've had it happen is when my Hav got the runs and *really* had to go. Is he pooing right at 10pm before you say goodnight? Also, how long are you walking him for? I increased my walks to about a hour and that took care of a lot of my Hav's issues (tired dog = good dog).


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## marlowe'sgirl (Jun 17, 2010)

KSC said:


> To share our own experiences......when he was a new puppy we worked very hard on the housetraining - he had no freedom...we watched him VERY closely. We also worked on socializing him - meet lots of people and dogs.
> 
> I think those two things are critical.
> 
> Once we began to trust him more then it became more fun to have him around...we weren't constantly worried he was going to pee.


I totally agree. My first couple of weeks weren't too fun, because I was focused on the same thing - crate and socializing. It has totally paid off though and he's more or less a dream dog (unless he gets a hold of toilet paper).


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## Ellie NY (Aug 27, 2010)

marlowe'sgirl said:


> Sounds like you're on the right track. My trainer also uses positive reinforcement, but - like you thought - she said to phase it out slowly and use treats as if you were a Vegas slot machine. You pay out rarely, but it's a enough to keep people gambling. Also, how big of treats are you using? I use half a TicTac size - so it's more of a taste than a snack - we go through maybe a quarter a stick of string cheese during a day. That's more than enough to say good job and not enough to ruin a meal.
> 
> As far as feeding - how familiar is your trainer with Havs? They are notoriously finicky eaters - often skipping meals just for the heck of it. Now that my Hav is reliably housetrained, I just leave a cup of food out during the day (like I do for my cat). Some days he finishes it by night, other days he doesn't. If I'm around all day, I notice he'll eat about half sometime in the morning and the other half sometime in the evening. As for the Kong - my Hav only cares about it if it's filled with peanut butter or cheese and sometimes not even then. He'd rather chew his bully stick.
> 
> I don't know if I can help you with early morning wake-ups. The only time I've had it happen is when my Hav got the runs and *really* had to go. Is he pooing right at 10pm before you say goodnight? Also, how long are you walking him for? I increased my walks to about a hour and that took care of a lot of my Hav's issues (tired dog = good dog).


Wow, I totally over estimated the size of the treat. The trainer used a "good size" reward but that may have been because she asked me not to feed him in the morning and she came at 11 AM. I'm going to make sure they're "taste size" from now on.

When I keep Eli on his feeding schedule (7AM, 1PM, 7PM) he almost always eats at least 3/4 his food which includes a 1/4 cup of dry Science Diet kibble and 1 heaping teaspoon of Wellness for Puppies. He sometimes misses meals but I don't leave the food out. I put down his food for 15-20 min. If he doesn't eat it I remove it because I know he's not interested and he'll get nice and hungry by his next feeding.

I typically walk him for about 30 minutes at night. I've tried longer walks but I find that if we walk for longer he has trouble settling down and will bark when put in his pen. I ignore it and he normally stops after only a few minutes.

Thanks all for your feedback!


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## puppyinmyyard (Aug 24, 2010)

Thank you Ellie for reporting back to us!

Our Chloe is 17 weeks and I am still having a hard time with her barking in her ex-pen. She is sleeping from 10pm until between 5:30-6:30. But last night she got up at 4 and after she pottied she wanted to play. She barked when I put her back in her kennel(crate) so I gave her a chew treat to keep her busy. I read that rawhide isn't good so at the Natural Pet Food store they had dried cow tendons (sounds gross but she loves them and it takes her forever to chew them). That didn't even keep her quiet so I just tried to ignore it and went back to sleep. Unfortunately it kept my husband awake and woke up my daughter. The funny thing is that we had a busy day........we took her to a BBQ at a cabin where she had lots of freedom outside and a ton of kids to play with. So she should have been exhausted 

I think the toy rotation in her ex pen during the day is a good idea. I will try that. I'm really trying to give her a lot of outside play time before we put her in her ex pen, but the early morning while the kids are getting ready for school, and dinner/homework time is really hard. She has a really high pitched bark that just sets us all on edge. 

Sylvia-thanks for reinforcing the importance of focusing on housetraining and socializing. This is so important to me because I know that by giving her very limited freedom in the house now we are setting up for the time when we can trust her to have free run like our big dog. We are working on sit..........when we feed her or take her out of her ex pen we tell her to sit, and even though I think it was coincidence at first, she will now sit on command.

Keep at it Ellie  I'm frustrated too, but I can tell Chloe is a great little puppy and I'm sure Eli is too.


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## DorothyS (Aug 11, 2009)

Regarding the size of treats, my trainer makes them extremely tiny. She uses dried liver and cuts it into miniscule pieces - as she puts it - they should be just bigger than dust! That way you can give many of them without filling a little dog up.


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## Ellie NY (Aug 27, 2010)

puppyinmyyard said:


> Thank you Ellie for reporting back to us!
> 
> Our Chloe is 17 weeks and I am still having a hard time with her barking in her ex-pen. She is sleeping from 10pm until between 5:30-6:30. But last night she got up at 4 and after she pottied she wanted to play. She barked when I put her back in her kennel(crate) so I gave her a chew treat to keep her busy. I read that rawhide isn't good so at the Natural Pet Food store they had dried cow tendons (sounds gross but she loves them and it takes her forever to chew them). That didn't even keep her quiet so I just tried to ignore it and went back to sleep. Unfortunately it kept my husband awake and woke up my daughter. The funny thing is that we had a busy day........we took her to a BBQ at a cabin where she had lots of freedom outside and a ton of kids to play with. So she should have been exhausted
> 
> ...


Oh my gosh, is it possible Eli and Chloe are related?! Sounds like the same dog. When he wakes up (be it 3 AM or 5 AM) he is ready to play. Last night, after he pottied at 3 AM, I put him back in the crate with a treat. He barked and barked but I ignored it. My husband has learned to sleep through it. What's funny is after his 5 AM potty I put him on a towel on the couch and he happily falls asleep beside me for another hour or so (longer on the weekends as long as I'm sleeping) so I know he can sleep should he choose to. I probably could resolve the issue by crating him in the room with me, but that's NOT going to happen (per earlier posts re: allergies).

I've received advice to wake him up when he's not expecting it, around 1AM, to go potty and then put him back to bed. Not sure what this strategy will accomplish since the whole point is I'm still getting up at an inconvenient hour. At this point, 10 - 5 sounds pretty good! The lesson in all this is be careful what you wish for!


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

I noticed that you are giving Eli Science diet. That is what I started giving Abby at first until a trainer/friend told me that corn is the first ingredient listed which in our case made Abby have to potty more often and have larger poop! As soon as I switched her to a higher protein (I feed Blue Buffalo) her poops were smaller and less frequent. That may be why he is wanting to get up more at night.


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## butterscoth28 (Jul 15, 2010)

hi, do you live in NYC. if so who's our trainer? we have a wonderful trainer for our puppy, Butterscotch, and would love to know who others use. Hope your little cutie becomes a trained little cutie in no time!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ellie NY said:


> Oh my gosh, is it possible Eli and Chloe are related?! Sounds like the same dog. When he wakes up (be it 3 AM or 5 AM) he is ready to play. Last night, after he pottied at 3 AM, I put him back in the crate with a treat. He barked and barked but I ignored it. My husband has learned to sleep through it. What's funny is after his 5 AM potty I put him on a towel on the couch and he happily falls asleep beside me for another hour or so (longer on the weekends as long as I'm sleeping) so I know he can sleep should he choose to. I probably could resolve the issue by crating him in the room with me, but that's NOT going to happen (per earlier posts re: allergies).
> 
> I've received advice to wake him up when he's not expecting it, around 1AM, to go potty and then put him back to bed. Not sure what this strategy will accomplish since the whole point is I'm still getting up at an inconvenient hour. At this point, 10 - 5 sounds pretty good! The lesson in all this is be careful what you wish for!


Have you considered a litter box in his expen at night? Kodi never has to wake us up because he has an approved potty place that he can use over night. I figure i can't go all night without a potty break, why should he?:biggrin1:


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Ellie NY said:


> Our first meeting with the trainer was this Saturday and I promised I'd give some feedback to others. To begin with, the issues I wanted the trainer to address were:
> - Quiet command/no barking while in the Xpen when I leave the room
> - Barking at my husband
> - General commands including "here", "sit", "stay", "go to bed" and walking on a loose leash
> ...


Hi Ellie. Sounds like your trainer is on the right track. I would work on the housetraining issue first. But the biggest mistake people make in lure reward training, is not fazing out the rewards soon enough . If you use food rewards too long they turn into bribes. And your dog will only work when he knows they're present. You should faze them out after 6-12 times when your dog has learned the cue (command). Once initially fazed out ,you go to a differential rate of reinforcement , whereby you only reward for above average performances and then you reward with "life rewards" eg . playing chase or something your dog likes . Here is an article on housetraining . http://www.apdt.ie/house_training.htm And the best dog tool / toy is the KONG . Here's why; http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/errorless-chewtoy-training


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## Ellie NY (Aug 27, 2010)

Kathie said:


> I noticed that you are giving Eli Science diet. That is what I started giving Abby at first until a trainer/friend told me that corn is the first ingredient listed which in our case made Abby have to potty more often and have larger poop! As soon as I switched her to a higher protein (I feed Blue Buffalo) her poops were smaller and less frequent. That may be why he is wanting to get up more at night.


Kathie- Oh my gosh, yes! I was feeding Eli Chicken Soup for the Puppy. It is formulated by Diamond which is the same manufacturer of the dog food the breeder used but it's of higher quality. I slowly switched over to Science Diet just this week at the vet's recommendation and noticed Eli's poo is larger, darker and smellier! His coat also seems to have less luster. Chicken Soup had salmon, fish oil and flackseed. I have to drive 30 minutes to buy it but it came highly recommended. Anyone have experience with this formula and how does it compare with other formulas like Blue Buffalo? So much confusion out there about the "best" food for puppies!


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## Ellie NY (Aug 27, 2010)

krandall said:


> Have you considered a litter box in his expen at night? Kodi never has to wake us up because he has an approved potty place that he can use over night. I figure i can't go all night without a potty break, why should he?:biggrin1:


Karen - Eli has been with us for a month. I tried for over 2 weeks to get him to use the wee wee pad in his Xpen but he never took to it. Finally, I made the Xpen smaller and removed the wee wee pad and he doesn't potty in the area unless I don't respond to his barks and make it impossible for him to hold it. I know he's trying because when he wakes me I rush him outside and he goes immediately.

I really know nothing about litter boxes. Is it the same stuff cats use? If he didn't take to the wee wee pad will he have a higher success rate with the litter box? Will this throw off his potty training because he doesn't have to hold it and can relieve himself anytime at night? Is it only used at night and removed during the day? So sorry for all these questions but I really know nothing about it.


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## Ellie NY (Aug 27, 2010)

davetgabby said:


> Hi Ellie. Sounds like your trainer is on the right track. I would work on the housetraining issue first. But the biggest mistake people make in lure reward training, is not fazing out the rewards soon enough . If you use food rewards too long they turn into bribes. And your dog will only work when he knows they're present. You should faze them out after 6-12 times when your dog has learned the cue (command). Once initially fazed out ,you go to a differential rate of reinforcement , whereby you only reward for above average performances and then you reward with "life rewards" eg . playing chase or something your dog likes . Here is an article on housetraining . http://www.apdt.ie/house_training.htm And the best dog tool / toy is the KONG . Here's why; http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/errorless-chewtoy-training


You're so right! I was using food as a reward to have him walk next to me. Now when I take him outside he plants his butt and won't move unless I "bribe" him to walk every few steps. Clearly, he's much smarter than me because he's conning me. The more I'm working with him the more I realize there are gaps in the information the trainer gave me. She never said to stop treating him, in fact made it seem like a life-long approach, and I see it causing a problems like when he begged my husband for food when he was eating! Think I need to find another trainer. DH will have a cow soon with the $$ we're spending!:jaw:


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## Ellie NY (Aug 27, 2010)

butterscoth28 said:


> hi, do you live in NYC. if so who's our trainer? we have a wonderful trainer for our puppy, Butterscotch, and would love to know who others use. Hope your little cutie becomes a trained little cutie in no time!!!


Yes, I live in Brooklyn. I called Empire of the Dog simply because they had a TON of positive ratings and testimonials on various websites. They were very expensive. Clearly we need more sessions in the (near) future but not sure DH can stomach spending this kind of money. If you're happy with your trainer, I would love to get their contact information and cost.

I saw Petco advertise group and private lessons. The private lessons were roughly half what I paid the trainer. What do you all think of trainers that work through large stores versus "private practice".


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

Ellie, I have to go over an hours drive to get Blue Buffalo. We live in a small town with not much but a Wal-Mart! We buy the biggest bag and keep in in a plastic bin at home to save travel. My brother lives near the PetSmart so he gets it for me most of the time since he's traveling here to see our dad.

There is a website that helps you find the nutrional info on many dog food brands. I can't remember what it is. Can someone help with that?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ellie NY said:


> Karen - Eli has been with us for a month. I tried for over 2 weeks to get him to use the wee wee pad in his Xpen but he never took to it. Finally, I made the Xpen smaller and removed the wee wee pad and he doesn't potty in the area unless I don't respond to his barks and make it impossible for him to hold it. I know he's trying because when he wakes me I rush him outside and he goes immediately.
> 
> I really know nothing about litter boxes. Is it the same stuff cats use? If he didn't take to the wee wee pad will he have a higher success rate with the litter box? Will this throw off his potty training because he doesn't have to hold it and can relieve himself anytime at night? Is it only used at night and removed during the day? So sorry for all these questions but I really know nothing about it.


Search the forum for the posts by Tom King on litter box training. He explains it in detail, and probably better than I could. It is not the same litter as cats use. Dogs don't scratch and cover the way cats do, and you want a litter that is heavy enough that it won't track out of the box too much. You can but dog litter at pet stores, but wood stove pellets work great (IMO, better, as I've tried both) and are MUCH less expensive.

I'm not a believer in making a dog "hold it" for our convenience. We go when we need to, why shouldn't they? Certainly your little guy isn't learning to hold it with your current method... he's just learned to get your attention so you can take him outside. I have RA, and my rest is very important. I can't be getting up with a puppy over and over during my sleep period.

Many people with Havs have a permanent indoor potty spot for their dogs, and this is what we've chosen to do. I also know a couple of families where the Havs have, over a period of time, just chosen NOT to use their indoor potty anymore. If Kodi were to go for a LONG time (I'm talking months here) without using his litter boxes, I MIGHT consider taking them up. But I am a firm believer in making it easier to do the right thing than the wrong thing. Potty training is a matter of establishing good habits.

At this point, Kodi uses the kitchen litter box a few time a week... usually in rainy weather. He really does sleep through the night (which is long because of my RA... I usually go to bed between 8-9 and get up at 7) most of the time. It's no more than a couple of times a month that I see he's used the litter box over night. But since he usually DOES sleep through the night, what would have happened on those nights where he needed to use the potty? Would he have woken me up? Peed in his ex-pen? Why make him choose a bad choice?

As far as switching from a pee pad to a litter box, some dogs do clearly prefer one sort of potty over another, so you don't have much to lose if he's already voted "no" on the pee pads.<g> You will have to TEACH him that it's OK (in fact, it's GREAT) for him to use the litter box. Dogs aren't like cats, who seem to be born with an understanding of litter boxes!<g> Tom's posts explain how to do that too.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Ellie NY said:


> Yes, I live in Brooklyn. I called Empire of the Dog simply because they had a TON of positive ratings and testimonials on various websites. They were very expensive. Clearly we need more sessions in the (near) future but not sure DH can stomach spending this kind of money. If you're happy with your trainer, I would love to get their contact information and cost.
> 
> I saw Petco advertise group and private lessons. The private lessons were roughly half what I paid the trainer. What do you all think of trainers that work through large stores versus "private practice".


No offence to any dog trainers, but trainers in these big box stores generally are just not experienced or trained properly in my opinion. Go to APDT site and look for some from there as I don't know of any IPDTA trainers in Brookllyn If you see some of interest and want to check them out , I would be willing to give you my opinion by checking out their web site as well. You can't tell everything about them from their web site but you can tell a lot. I've studied many trainers sites so, and it's easy to spot the red flags. Email me privately if you are interested.


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## marlowe'sgirl (Jun 17, 2010)

Ellie NY said:


> Karen - Eli has been with us for a month. I tried for over 2 weeks to get him to use the wee wee pad in his Xpen but he never took to it. Finally, I made the Xpen smaller and removed the wee wee pad and he doesn't potty in the area unless I don't respond to his barks and make it impossible for him to hold it. I know he's trying because when he wakes me I rush him outside and he goes immediately.
> 
> I really know nothing about litter boxes. Is it the same stuff cats use? If he didn't take to the wee wee pad will he have a higher success rate with the litter box? Will this throw off his potty training because he doesn't have to hold it and can relieve himself anytime at night? Is it only used at night and removed during the day? So sorry for all these questions but I really know nothing about it.


Your dog will eventually hold it through the night - it sounds like he's got the right idea and knows to let you know he needs to go. For me - that's a win. My Hav is outside only and that's working great for us. I had a dog as a kid who decided all weewee pad shaped things = places to pee (ie doormats)-- so I was really hesitant to introduce that idea to my Hav.

I think I read somewhere that Eli's just 4 months. That's still young with a tiny bladder. I got my hav at 5 months and he always held it, crated, through the night (8-9 hrs) just fine. My guy has a bladder of steel or something (granted he's a lap and half Hav) because he's not even in a hurry in the morning (ie wants to play a few rounds of fetch) and if I spend all day at home, he doesn't even bug me to take him out even if it's been over 6 hrs. Maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones, but once the idea took he's been perfect.

Oh and as for trainers - I really rec a group class with a non-big box trainer. Getting your dog to pay attention and obey with 5 other dogs and owners trying to do the same thing is just not something you can repeat on your own at home.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Kathie said:


> Ellie, I have to go over an hours drive to get Blue Buffalo. We live in a small town with not much but a Wal-Mart! We buy the biggest bag and keep in in a plastic bin at home to save travel. My brother lives near the PetSmart so he gets it for me most of the time since he's traveling here to see our dad.
> 
> There is a website that helps you find the nutrional info on many dog food brands. I can't remember what it is. Can someone help with that?


Yeah Kathie, Blue Buffalo is one of the better foods, and the site you're talking about is dogfoodanalysis.com . But in my opinion if you really want to learn about good dog food I would encourage you to read the info at http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=main . especially the article about puppy food.


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