# Problems With Puppy



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I am having some real problems with my Gryff, our 4-month old and desperately need some advice.

Here are the main issues:

1. He growls and barks at Alec, our 7 year old
2. He doesn't seem to like Alec much at all
3. He only just tolerates my husband Chuck
4. He doesn't seem to want to hang out with the family. He prefers to go inside his crate or curl up in another room

I know all of these things are very anti-Havanese. I can't imagine why he is having such social issues. I am hoping that our vet might shed some light when she calls. As a family, we are going to have a discussion tonight to decide what we should do. Alec is completely heartbroken, but on the other hand, he wants a dog who will wag his tail and jump up and down excitedly when he comes home from school at the end of the day. Gryff wants nothing to do with Alec whatsoever.

Has anybody ever had these types of problems? I chose this breed because they are supposed to be great family dogs who love kids.

Thanks,
Ivy


----------



## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

You didn't say, how does he act with you?

He sounds like he wants to be the boss, what type of trainning is he receiving? Where does he sleep? Has you son dropped him or pulled at his fur? or has other children? Just asking to get a better idea of what's going on. What do you do when he barks and growls? Do you have a picture of him you could post?


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I can get on the floor and play with him, but he doesn't seem to come to me to play. He is very sweet with me though. However, if I call for him throughout the house, he doesn't come bounding toward me like you would expect a puppy to. Other than the puppy biting, he really doesn't act like a puppy at all.

I have been training him at home. He is signed up for obedience classes, but they haven't started yet.

He had been sleeping in his crate until a few days ago. He has been in our bed. Last night I put him in our son's bed until he fell asleep.

Alec has never dropped him or pulled on his fur. Until we got the dog, Alec had been scared of dogs. He is not scared anymore, but he still is slightly awkward around Gryff. Alec just told me this morning that Gryff growled at his friend who was over last weekend.

Gryff never growls at Alec around me. I was told from a behaviorist that when Gryff growls, Alec should ignore it and give him the cold shoulder until Gryff wants something from him. Alec should then comman the dog to do something (sit) and then give the dog attention. Problem is that Gryff never goes to Alec for anything. Alec has been feeding him exclusively for the past two weeks and helps take him for walks.


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

He is precious  

I have 7 kids, and that is one of the reasons I chose a Havanese, in addition to my alleries and shedding. I can understand your disappointment. 

Honestly, If I were you, I would find a dog trainer to come to your house and address these specific issues you are having. Obedience class will be good for socialization and basic training, but it sounds like Gryff needs some one on one work. Hanging out in another room and seeming aloof and/or aggressive is not typical.

I did have a few issues with Gucci when she was younger, she would growl if we woke her up in the evening or night, and she was afraid of my youngest twin stepdaughters (8)...but that was because they "dropped" her, despite my strict instructions for them not to pick her up and carry her around without my supervision. It took a few months for her to completely trust them again, and now she is fine with them, and enjoys playing with them. She gets very happy and excited when sees any of my kids and wants to play with them, the nipping phase is over and she really adores very small children, toddlers.(I don't have any of those though!)

Did anything happen that you can think of between Gryff and Alec? Like accidentally tripping over him or something? It sounds like you are doing the right things by letting your son treat, feed and exercise him, so I don't know what else to add.

I would reprimand Gryff for ANY growling or aggressive behavior. I would put her on her back and growl, holding my hand and fingers under her jaw and release the hold when she would fully "submit"/relax. It worked. But it has to be consistent with everyone in the family, I really had to teach the kids HOW to be alpha and make sure they walked out the door first, eat first, etc. Little things.

Gucci is generally more attached to me, but likes and plays with the whole family. 

Gryff is still young, and I think you can work these issues out. I encourage you to get some one on one training sessions.

Kara


----------



## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

hE REALLY IS A CUTIE!! And I bet you guys can work thru these issues. I would have your son and your hubby each have something special that they do/give to the pup. Say a special treat for your son. He can work with the pup on sitting, stay etc but ONLY your son gives him that treat. Then maybe Hubby could be the fetch guy, and he plays fetch with only. 
It sounds to me that maybe is afraid of hubby & son. Dont give up cause they def. are the best dogs!!


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Gryff doesn't seem to get the idea of fetch. If you roll a ball to him, he will pick it up and run with it a bit, then put it down and roll it around for a minute and then move on to something else. In fact, his all time favorite game is when my son runs and he chases him around the yard. Hmm, that sounds a bit Alpha, doesn't it. 

Gryff is scheduled to be neutered next month. Does anybody think that will help?


----------



## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

I agree with Kara, that 'flipping' Gryff onto his back each and every time he growls at any human in the family will teach him that he is not the boss. All the humans in the family need to be the boss and though he can still have a strong, alpha character - nothing wrong with that - he can not be permitted to growl at anyone. There are growls and gruffs, grumpy mutterings that many Havs seem to display and you can really tell the difference and know that those noises are o.k. They are just part of the Hav's speech. What Gryff does with Alec isnt' like that though. 

I am wondering where your pup comes from? Did he have siblings living with him before you got him? At what age did Gryff leave his mother? How were they all living? In crates, in the breeder's home/bed/couches, outdoors? These are things that will most likely affect a pup's personality. It is true that Gryff's are atypical of the Havanese, but there may be something that happened to him before you got him. It would be interesting to know more about that.

If you can get someone to give you one on one training, positive training - not punishment based - then I'm sure it will help a lot! You are doing the right things so maybe you just need a little help. 

Please dont' get too discouraged. I'm very glad you posted here as you might find something out that you hadn't known before. Good luck and please let us know how things go, o.k.?


----------



## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Gryff is adorable. I think the advice has been great. My Jasper never acted like a puppy either.


----------



## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

I few questions, How long have you had the pup? Do you know how much time the breeder spent on socializing? Is this a new behavior, or did it start from day one?


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Gryff is 4 months old and we got him a month ago. His litter lived in the house with a small child. The puppies had a caged in area in a finished basement with a part to sleep in and a part to play in. They spent a good deal of time out of the cage altogether and would run around outside. They all seemed to be well tempered.

We do have an appointment with a behaviorist next week and have obedience classes scheduled. In the meantime, I take him out quite often and he is fine around people. He had his first encounter with dogs this past weekend (I kept him away from dogs until he had his puppy shots complete) and he was completely wigged out. Didn't want anything to do with any of them. He has a play date scheduled for Friday with my friends' dogs. We'll see how that goes.

Here is Gryff right after his haircut this past weekend. Nice bow, eh? Looks very masculine.


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I should mention too that my husband and I both work from home. We are with the dog almost 24/7. Alec is in school until 4:00.


----------



## NancyVB (Jun 27, 2007)

I could be completely wrong but your puppy sounds like he wasn't socialized. 
They need to experience many different people and places to be well adjusted. I also think he is an alpha personality. They can be trained. just have to be consistant.
Also the not playing fetch thing, neither of mine are interested in playing fetch or tug of war. I atribute this to the fact that they are both mill puppies (from rescue) and didn't get to play with people when they were little. They chase and wrestle with each other but if I try to play with them with a toy, they don't get it. 
Good luck with him, I hope your trainer can help. Your son and pup are both adorable.


----------



## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

My Beamer does not care for fetch and balls in general. He is actually scared of balls. He is into stuffed squeeky toys though, BIG TIME!


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

He really likes braided ropes. He tosses them around.

Someone suggested I board him overnight in a kennel and then have my son and husband pick him up. Theory is they will be so excited to see them it will help their relationship. Thoughts?


----------



## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

I would think that anything your son and hubby do (without you around) tht makes him happy, will help. If he starts to relate happy good things in relation to them, he wont be so apt to growl, or bark. It may take a while but its worth trying. Adorable picture!!


----------



## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

The first few weeks we had Smarty, she wanted nothing to do with anyone but me. She would run from my husband and growl at him when he tried to do anything with her. My kids would come over and she would Yap really loud if someone tried to pick her up, as if they were hurting her. No one would take her out for fear of not being able to catch her. The behavior was between 9 & 12 weeks.

Not sure when or what changed, she started to run to my DH when he came in, played with the kids and now loves everybody.

The thing that would worry me most about your situation is your puppy going to his crate rather than being with the family. Smarty never wanted to be alone she just wanted to be with me.

Your puppy also does not seem to have a high energy level. You may want to have the vet check him out. If he does not feel well he is not going to want to play and this could contribute to his behavior.


----------



## kimoh (Jul 5, 2007)

I am pretty new to havanese as well, we have just had ours 3 weeks. But I do have younger kids, 5 and 9, so I can tell you some things that have helped us or I have noticed.

When we first picked up Dilly we were concerned she might try to dominate my 5 yr old. But it is funny, he is really good with her. She is really drawn to him because he is so animated when he engages her and nothing she does when she gets a little wound up seems to phase him. He just will tell her no and go sit up in a chair if he needs to get away. I almost feel like she views him as a more alpha brother.

My daughter(9) used to be afraid of dogs too. Her overt fear stopped well before we got Dilly, but I think certain things Dilly does makes her apprehensive and appear less dominant. I think Dilly does pick up on this. I don't think she quite knows what Kendall's place in the "pack" is and will challenge her more.

She growled at her a couple of times when she picked her up to take her outside(we have a big step she needed help down).

I did show Kendall the alpha roll over to have if she needs it. I also have involved her more in feeding and training Dilly, just 5 min sit, down, come sessions. And treating her more often. Also Dilly does not get much for free--she has to sit to get before we put her food down, before we take the leash off when coming inside, before we take her out of the xpen........

One thing we do that might be fun for Gryff and Alec are for you to each sit on opposite sides of the room with treats and take turns calling him and treating him when he comes. Dilly and my kids love this.

Also I checked out a couple of books from the library I like
Before & after getting your puppy : the positive approach to raising a happy, healthy, and well-behaved dog by Ian Dunbar
and
The Loved Dog by Tamar Gellar.

I hope some of this helps.

Kim

btw-both your boys are adorable


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I agree with Sandi...alot of puppies have had issues with fear, growling, etc. But the anti-social behavior is very troubling. I also noticed that she was VERY attached to me for the first few months and as she got older, she became more interested in my children and she is much closer to my husband, she looks forward to their play-times before bed and will nudge and lick on him until he plays with her.

BUT, most of my kids, atleast 6 of them...all thought that Gucci "didn't like them' at one point or another, because she wanted to be wherever *I* was.

I am not sure about boarding/kennelling? Maybe someone more experienced with that can answer.

Gucci doesn't like to fetch, she will take whatever I throw and entice me to chase her.lol...she also likes running around the back yard racing with the kids. 

Does he sometimes play well with your son? Have you noticed the growling or bad behavior happening at a particular time of the day/night? 

Kara


----------



## LuvMyHavanese (Apr 13, 2007)

My Dreamer wanted nothing to do with my hubby when we first got her. She too only wanted me. It took a good 2-3 months before she would even let him pet her. Now she loves him to death(she still prefers me) and is so happy when he gets home.

She does not play with toys at all. And if we are busy & cannot give her our full attention she would rather be hanging out in her crate until i call her or she sees us sit down or leave the room. Her crate is in the dining room but we have an open floor plan where she can still see everyone. She is a very calm, quiet dog-quite different than my other 2.

Tripp is the most loving dog. He is sooo in love with us. But he does not like (most) kids (we dont have any). He can sense their fear also. He has never growled but he barks & runs away.

Jax is very social & just loves everyone.


----------



## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

You have gotten some great advice from everyone here. I would definitely reinforce rolling him on his back in front of your son and making sure that Gryff knows that he is submissive to Alec.

As far as the dogs go, don't be too discouraged. Kubrick is finally starting to come out of his shell around dogs, though he is absolutely loving to every person he meets.

Good luck and keep us posted if any new issues come up or get resolved. We love to cheer our Havs on to overcome different issues (be they social, physical or mental hehe) around here! Don't be discouraged, these little guys really do live to please!


----------



## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

Just a quick question. Are you sure that was his actual litter? It might just be me, but he looks (other than perfectly adorable, matching your son!) like he might be a bit older than 4 months to me.
I think all the advice you've been given here so far has been great. There are lots of excellent books, and we've found working with a good trainer/behaviorist was well work the time and money.
Best of luck! Good thoughts!
Beverly


----------



## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Bev,

I was thinking the same thing! Yeah, he does look pretty big for 4 months old... but then again, all look big compared to my Beamer.. lol..

How much does he weight in at?
But he IS VERY CUTE!!

Ryan


----------



## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

I have 4 dogs 3 havanese and a lab. Here are a few things that I do with my dogs on a daily basis, to let them know I am the one in charge. I also have every member of my family and anyone who comes over do the same thing.

**They must sit/lay down to be petted. No jumping.
**They must lay down/sit before they get food/treat
**Practice holding food in front of them, but don't let them have it until you say okay. I can line up food and have all 4 of my dogs waiting for me to say okay.
**They must be lying down in their crates in the morning before I will let them out.
**They must wait for me to go through a door first.
**They must wait for me to say okay, before they can come back in the house.
**They are not allowed to jump on my furniture. They must first sit before I invite them up.

My dogs aren't perfect, but these things do help. After awhile all these thing just become second nature, and they know what to expect.

I would not let Gryff alone with your son. At this point I would not let him out of my sight. One thing you can do is tie a leash to your belt loop and have him go wherever you go. This way he will get used to being with you and you have constant control over his behavior. I would not let him on the furniture or bed until he understands that he is the low man on the totem pole.


Be there with your son and have him follow these rules and the dog we see him as the alpha too.

I would also get him vet checked to make sure healthwise he is okay.

Good luck, both of your boys are cuties.


----------



## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

reece said:


> I would not let him on the furniture or bed until he understands that he is the low man on the totem pole.
> 
> I would also get him vet checked to make sure healthwise he is okay.


I just finished reading through all the replies and these were two things that kept running through my mind. I really think he shouldn't be sleeping in bed with you, it sounds to me like he places himself as no. 2 in the pack~~right after you and before your husband and son! Besides Obedience classes you might want to check out Puppy Kindergarten for your guy since he was so freaked out by other dogs. My Rufus was the same way, the first night of Puppy Kindergarten he hid under the chairs. Our P.K. teacher is open to other questions during class too, so you could maybe get some helpful ideas, work on his socialization, and just plain tire him out for the evening!  He sure is a cutie!


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Find the Cesar Milan "Dog Whisperer" DVDs, watch them, and you may find something useful. He did several episodes with dogs with this sort of issue.

Has he always been like this? How did he interact with your family at the breeder's and how did he interact with his littermates?


----------



## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Paige, I really like your sugg'n to keep Gryff attached to his mom (sorry, but I dont' know what your name is!). I think it will force Gryff to focus on her, watching her for signals, for approval, for everything. 

My first instinct about crating Gryff overnight somewhere and having your son and husband get him the next day is that it would likely backfire! I'd be afraid that the pup would feel abandoned, further reinforcing his anti-social behavior and causing added fears! Yikes! I dunno..... I'm no expert, but it's just a gut feeling. 

I understand that there's more than just a behavior problem. There is the fact that Gryff doesn't seem to like anyone, that he prefers to be in his crate or alone in another room instead of with the rest of the family. I'd be worried too. There seem to be "un-puppylike" behaviors. As Missy said, her Jasper was like that and he's o.k. now, in great part because they have Cash that has helped him out of his shell a bit. 

I am very interested in what the therapist has to say! Courage, dont' give up! We'll somehow get all our heads together and make more suggestions if it's needed. Poor Gryff will be so much happier, I'm sure, once you can understand each other better.


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Yes, that was his litter. He was sired on May 25th. His Mommy is actually quite big for a Havanese. The rest of the litter looked very much like him. I was actually hoping for a Havanese that would run on the larger side. He is 7 lbs.

**They must sit/lay down to be petted. No jumping. 
I do this too. He never jumps, it's not really in his nature unless food is involved.

**They must lay down/sit before they get food/treat
Always. It is usually my son giving him the food/treat and Gryff will comply.

**Practice holding food in front of them, but don't let them have it until you say okay. I can line up food and have all 4 of my dogs waiting for me to say okay.
Haven't tried that.

**They must be lying down in their crates in the morning before I will let them out.
He isn't in his crate. In fact, I have a crate question. Right now it is in our sunroom off the kitchen. Not incredibly centrally located. What if I moved his crate into my son's room?

**They must wait for me to go through a door first.
We're working on this. He doesn't push through like a maniac though. It's not much of an issue.

**They must wait for me to say okay, before they can come back in the house.
Never tried that.

**They are not allowed to jump on my furniture. They must first sit before I invite them up.
He never jumps on the furniture anyway. He's not really interested in being on the furniture.

Last night I put Alec to bed and put Gryff on his bed with him. I left them alone and Gryff stayed there until I took him off a few hours later. Any thoughts on that?

As for attaching him to me with a leash - Isn't he too attached to me already? Wouldn't it be more beneficial to have him attached to my husband so he can get used to him?


----------



## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

You could put the crate in your son's room, but I would not leave him alone with him if he growls at him I know he is a small dog, but a dog is a dog, and if he bit your son, he may not want anything to do with the dog again. Be sure if you have to crate him while you are busy that he is in a room where he can see what is going on. 


I used the leash tied to me with Reece, because I didn't want to crate him while I was cooking or doing laundry. I would also hook the leash around the door in the room I was in and that way he was close by and couldn't get into trouble. He didn't mind at all, that way he would get used to being around you or your husband.


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

So, Gryff is attatched to you? Follows you around, etc? He just occasionally has selective hearing about commands and such?

If he is bonding with you, then I think he will bond with your husband and son over the next few months if you keep them very involved in Gryff's training and feeding.

Gucci really preferred me ALOT for the first 6 months, she still sometimes does, but she has gotten MUCH closer and loving with the kids and husband.

It sounds like you are going in the right in direction.

There are two schools of thought on the bed vs. the crate, some people think its a great way to bond (with rules, of course) and others think the crate is better. I have never used a crate, she sleeps in bed with us, but I will always get in bed first and she has to wait for me to call her up. AND if she ever misbehaves, she gets put OFF the bed. So, the rules are there and she knows them.

I think if you do let him sleep with your son, make sure that your son has rules for Gryff, and Gryff doesn't think that he is Alpha of the bed.

Kara


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Oh yeah, he is quite attached to me. He is never in his crate anymore unless he choses to go in himself. He really isn't much of a chewer and hasn't gotten into much trouble.

Tom - Gryff was very playful with his littermates. Alec was still pretty scared of dogs when we first decided to get a dog. He pet Gryff, but wasn't overly affectionate. Here is a picture of Alec and Gryff's first meeting.










By the way, my husband brought Gryff into his office tonight, closed the door and spent 20 minutes brushing him. All the boys are on the floor right now hanging out together. I am over here typing to you all. I think for the next few days (at least until the behaviorist gets here) I am going to lay low with regard to the dog. I am putting Chuck and Alec in charge of walks, food, and affection.


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I just took this shot. I think we can get Alec and Gryff to get along. I do worry about his overall temperment. It's odd really, I'm complaining that he's not running all over the house and jumping up and down like a maniac.

Oh, one other thing that happened today. I took him to a friend's house. Nicole is going to take care of Gryff for a weekend at the end of this month and for a few days in November. Nicole spent many years as a vet tech and has a lot of dog experience. She thinks Gryff and Alec will be okay together. She also has a 100 pound Rottweiler. We introduced Alec and Nala today. Gryff was pretty scared, but let Nala sniff her a bit. We will keep them apart while they share the house (Nala is sort of a basement dog). It was good to see that Gryff didn't pee the floor and head for the hills.


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Sounds encouraging. I think he was picking up on Alec's uncertainty towards him and will relax when Alec does. Dogs can tell a lot more about us than we can about them from just being near without any interaction that would be normal to people.


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I'm hoping to learn more when the behaviorist comes, but what do you think about his general attitude? If I'm in another room and whistle and call for him, he won't come to me. If my husband is playing with him or petting him, he might just get up and walk away into my office. He's got two particular spots he likes to lay in.

Just now I hear my husband and son playin in his room and my son made a screeching sound. Gryff looked up from his resting position on my floor and made an inquiring nod of his head, then laid back down. He is SO LAZY!


----------



## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Shelby was like that for a while. In fact, I thought she had a hearing problem. It turned out to be a case of "selective hearing". :biggrin1:


----------



## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

> I understand that there's more than just a behavior problem. There is the fact that Gryff doesn't seem to like anyone, that he prefers to be in his crate or alone in another room instead of with the rest of the family. I'd be worried too. There seem to be "un-puppylike" behaviors. As Missy said, her Jasper was like that and he's o.k. now, in great part because they have Cash that has helped him out of his shell a bit.


Gryffs Mom, Alec and Gryff on the floor together are just so cute. It sounds to me like you are doing everything right and that all "the boys" just need to work things out. (as long as you are not in fear for your son being bitten)

I would be very interested in what the behaviorist has to say about the retreating to his crate. As Marj said, Jasper did do that as a puppy and he still does that now although Cash has brought him out a bit. We were told he was independent by the breeder but he is more like a cat than a dog.

Keep us posted. Good luck.


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I can't thank you all enough for making me feel better today. I spent the better part of the day in hysterics. Now I feel like we can work with the behaviorist and make this work out...hopefully.


----------



## mintchip (Apr 19, 2007)

My best wishes to you and your family---your photos are wonderful!


----------



## The Fussy Puppy Gang (May 21, 2007)

I hope it all works out in the end. Your son and Gryff look SO cute together!

It sounds like you're doing all the right things.

One last suggestion...has Gryff gone for a full check up? Could there be a medical reason contributing to his 'laziness' and irritable attitude? 

Wanda


----------



## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

I am not a dog professional and I have not read the entire thread, but could it be that your dog does not realize that you are his new parents? Could he feel like a house guest just trying to stay out of the way? He has not been with you long and perhaps he needs some time to feel secure.


----------



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Congrats on your puppy first off! I also wonder about him leaving the family too early- socialization issues. What about having the vet run a blood panel though. Dora is a very calm havanese for the most part but it almost sounds like he could be sick or ill... most puppies, even calmer ones have more energy than what it sounds like this little guy has.

I think the training classes and the behaviorist will be a lot of help. Just make sure you aren't forced to do anything you are uncomfortable doing!

Keep us posted!
Amanda


----------



## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

I couldn't see the first pic you posted but the last two of Alex and Gryff are so sweet. I love this last one of your pup. What a cutie!! 

I'm very glad you feel a little better and encouraged. We will be waiting to hear more as the days go by.

Ah! Never mind about that first pic..... just checked again and I can see it now. How sweet is that?? Awwwwwwwww ......


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

He's had a full checkup and passed with flying colors. I haven't had blood work done. I do have a call in to the vet, but I haven't heard back. I will try them again in the morning. I expressed my concern to her before that he sleeps a lot, but we both figured it was just that puppies need sleep. I think we are past that point though because he is a total lazy head.


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Its a great sign that he is bonding with you 

Tom is right, dogs *sense* our emotion, and fear..however they don't understand what we are afraid of. Make sure your son and hubby try to be "confident" and "positive" around him, like a pack leader would, the theories that Cesar talks about...I've had good luck with that.

And mine really is very in tune with my emotions/feelings.

Let us know what the behaviorist says.

Oh, and dogs are naturally curious, use that to manipulate him when you want him to come. I sometimes have to resort to that. 90% of the time she follows me anyways, but there are times she has selective hearing, or is too tired/distracted to come. Make him curious.

I'm glad you feel better! And I hope something suggested helps, if not..we are always here for support and encouragement!

hugs
Kara


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

You guys have really been amazing. I was waiting for my account to be activated and I was in tears. I wrote the webmaste and told him/her I had to start posting right away and my account was activated within minutes. 

I've told Alec all along he can't ever act afraid in front of Gryff and I know he tried really hard. He's not afraid at all anymore. In fact, he went right up to my friend's enormous Rottweiler yesterday - that's something he NEVER would have done a month ago.

We'll get there. I wish I didn't have to wait a whole week for the behaviorist to come.


----------



## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

I have been a bit behind in catching up on all the threads, sorry. Ivy, a lot of what the members here are saying is great advice. Just those simple suggestions that Paige mentioned, although simple, are very effective. As Tom mentioned, they do pick up on our emotions that sometimes we even aren't aware of.

When we first got Oreo, the kids and I were all gung-ho. My husband, never being a dog owner, wasn't as much so ( of course, this is something he admits now, but not then) So, the first night with Oreo ( Oreo being all of 4lbs), when the kids were in bed, and it was time for hubby and I to spend our time together, as my husband was coming out of our bedroom into our living room, Oreo growled at him! I was so shocked to hear this little 4lb ball of fur, growling - it was cute, but not good, if you know what I mean. I guess he had spent the entire day bonding with me alone, and he was leary of my husband - especially because we now know that he wasn't exactly fond of Oreo. As funny and cute as it was I had to put a stop to it, so the moment my husband approached, I removed myself from Oreo's side ( he was sitting beside me) and sat beside my husband and put my arm around him, while looking at him with this look that clearly said "He's MINE"..... It was priceless, because Oreo clearly understood and simply lay on the ground and sighed... He never did that again. Now, Oreo being 10 months old, has grown on my husband,and I find him giving Oreo attention, cuddling and so on. The truth is, when we do spend the time, they do get it... Havanese aren't called intelligent for nothing 

Don't give up, just claim what is yours as YOURS and set your rules for the little guy - he will get the picture.... But good for you that you are getting help from a behaviorist, Gryff is in good hands. :grouphug:


----------



## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

My Freddie was not s socilaized like my other 2. He growls and does not love all people. He is still afraid of my husband and he has been with me almost 2 years! He fears men. He also growls at anyone if they disturb him when he is tired. I purposely nutch him when he is tired and I cuddle with him when he is grumpy. He growls at me, but I keep cuddling with him while scratching him. He love the scratching and soon forgets he is irritated with me. I am trying to get him to except what he hates, in exchange for something that feels good. 

He also had trouble with feet. He was so afraid of feet and if you touched him with your foot he would growl. I touched him and rubbed him with my feet several times a day and he is fine with feet now. 

I worked very hard in socilaizing him and he is a lot better.

I think there is hope for your guy, it just takes time. Hang in there!


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Wow, Gryff LOVES feet. It's kind of embarrassing when we are out in public because he licks everyones toes.

This has been a great morning. First, Gryff woke up around 4:30 in the morning (he was on our bed) and I took him out. When we came back inside, we went into Alec's room and onto his bed. Gryff played with Alec's socks (he pulled them off his feet), then curled up on his pillow. I left the room and he stayed there until morning. We got up and he did his morning business and Alec fed him breakfast. When Chuck got up, Gryff actually walked up and greeted him! It was wonderful. Alec, Gryff, and I had a raucous play session and then I closed Gryff in the room with Chuck so they could have some time together.

Perhaps he really needs some alone time with everyone in the house. By the way, I closed the door to the room where he retreats to his crate yesterday. It forced him to spend more time with us and I think it worked. I haven't moved his crate upstairs yet, but I will.


----------



## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I did not read everyone elses post, so I hope I am not repeating anything. Have you husband and Alec give him his treats daily. That helped my Freddie with strangers.


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I brought Gryff over to a friends house today. She has two puppies: a beagle and a yorkie. The beagle is nuts, so we put her inside and let Gryff hang out with Sky. Gryff wasn't too into it. He ran away at first, but after a while he calmed down enough that they could both be sitting and even laying down in the same space. They touched noses a bit and Sky tried to smell Gryff's butt. Gryff wouldn't play, but he wasn't running for dear life either. Then Sky tried mounting Gryff and he wouldn't have any of that and turned around and growled (Hey, I would too if some Yorkie dude was trying to get fresh with me). Anyway, how would you say he did today? He has another playdate tomorrow with a different pair of little dogs.


----------



## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I think he did great. My guys would have totally done the same thing. They do not like dogs that are yappy or hyper and want nothing to do with them. Hyper dogs actually freak my dogs out a bit.


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Alec and Chuck just left to take Gryff to the park. Everyone is making a supreme effort here and I feel really good about it. Thanks again everyone. I will let you know how Gryff's playdate goes tomorrow and what the behaviorist says.

I dropped by the vet today to discuss the bulge on Gryff's side left over from his lyme shot. While we were there, Alec was petting and kissing Gryff and all was fine. Then Alec got too huggy and Gryff growled at him. I'm glad they saw it happen at the vets office. It was also the first time Gryff did it in front of me. Alec learned that he can't smother Gryff like that. They recommended Alec give him a little whack on the nose and say "No". The good news today is that Gryff laid down for Alec several times today. It's the first time he's done it for him.


----------



## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Sometimes puppies just want to be left alone. When Beamer is ready to leave a hug/kiss fest, he just shakes and fights until we put him down.. He has never growled, but thats just not his style. He prefers to spasm until we put him down.. lol
Also, sometimes small kids are to aggresive with the puppies. My neice does not pet Beamer very lightly like normal people do. She presses down very firm/hard on his back and that will sometimes send Beamer running..


----------



## MaddiesMom (Apr 1, 2007)

Oh, you have the cutest little boy and Gryff is also adorable. I think Gryff will definitely come around. Some dogs take more time than others. You mentioned that Gryff's litter lived in a house with a small child. Perhaps the child dropped him or scared him in some way. The more confident Alec is with him, Gryff will sense security. About the growling in the vet's office....vet visits are stressful anyway for a dog. Plus some dogs don't like to be hugged. I've watched little children run up to a strange dog, grab their heads to hug, and hold my breath, as I know that can be a direct challenge to a dog. I'm sure with the behaviorist's help, Gryff will turn out just as you had hoped he would. Just remember to take it one little positive step at a time.


----------



## Sissygirl (Aug 8, 2007)

Gryff is just adorable! Thanks for posting pics - I love seeing pics of new hava babies.

I have been reading a book from the library and I love it.

The Loved Dog by Tamar Geller

She trained Oprah's golden retrievers.

I think it would help you and your family.

I have noticed that when we have company if the kids are easy and loving Sissy stays in the room but if they are too loud or pet too hard - she leaves and goes to her crate.

We went to Puppy School and our trainer said to be careful that noone is putting their hand in the puppy's face and roughing it back and forth - our trainer said that sometimes men and children do this (only because they don't know what to do with the dog and they think that is playing) but she said it really aggravates the dog.

When I first got Sissy she followed me everywhere and if she heard a noise - she had to go see what was going on. Now (2.5 yrs) she is calmer but still very curious.

Best of Luck - hang in there it will get better.
Marie


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Sissygirl said:


> We went to Puppy School and our trainer said to be careful that noone is putting their hand in the puppy's face and roughing it back and forth - our trainer said that sometimes men and children do this (only because they don't know what to do with the dog and they think that is playing) but she said it really aggravates the dog.


Aw, really? I love to do that!

The trip to the vet wasn't a scheduled one, I just stopped in to talk. Still, he has had a few visits there already and wasn't too happy to be there. Alec is definitely on the rough side, but he's learning what Gryff likes and whe he doesn't like -- the hard way!


----------



## Suuske747 (May 9, 2007)

What a great thread! It shows the high sense of community here!!
You have received very good advice....

Some dogs seem to have strong preference at first.....Sierra had always been strongly oriented towards me......Sierra would never be on the same couch with my partner...she'd play and everything with him, but not be on the couch with him.....after 8 months all of a sudden she would go and and curl up with him on the couch...Eric was in complete shock, didn't dare to breathe haahaha


----------



## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

It sounds to me like Gryff is doing great!! Alec seems like a very smart little boy !! He seems to be learning what he can and cant do with Gryff. My Lily does not like anyone in "her space" she doesnt like us in her face, or any other dog there either. She will make it known as Gryff seems to have done. I bet in a few days, if you all keep up this, it will seem like Gryff has been with you forever!! I smiled when you told the story of him going into your sons bed in the morning - how sweet!!
Laurie


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

You're all so nice to me!

Gryff in action:
http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=48hsa3n&s=1


----------



## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

He is so cute reminds me of Brady Stevens.


----------



## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

What a cutie and I loved the video. You are catching on real quick how addicted we are to looking at photo's and the video's are a bonus too.

Ooops forgot to say WELCOME :wave:


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Thanks so much. I am so happy to be here.

Ivy


----------



## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Ivy it looks like you have a lot of leafs on the ground already what state are you in?


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I'm in New Paltz, NY. We are 70 miles north of New York City. The leaves you are seeing on the ground are mostly Hickory and Oak leaves. Some of the Maples around here started changing over a week ago. It's really starting early this year.


----------



## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

Your puppy could not be cuter!! Lovely photos!! He is very similar to Biscuit in appearance at that age. Good luck, it sounds like you are doing all the right things.


----------



## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

I am in MA and the same is going on here, not enough rain this summer. Bummer I hope we dont miss out on all our fall color.


----------



## mintchip (Apr 19, 2007)

ivyagogo said:


> You're all so nice to me!
> 
> Gryff in action:
> http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=48hsa3n&s=1


great pictures!!


----------



## The Fussy Puppy Gang (May 21, 2007)

ivyagogo said:


> ...I dropped by the vet today to discuss the bulge on Gryff's side left over from his lyme shot....They recommended Alec give him a little whack on the nose and say "No"... The good news today is that Gryff laid down for Alec several times today. It's the first time he's done it for him.


When was he vaccinated? Have you asked your vet if it's possible that some of his behavior is related to the Lyme shot, or any other vaccines he might've received recently? Some dogs are very sensitive and have reactions to certain vaccines. The symptoms can range from life threatening to visible illness to pain and discomfort. Some aggression has also been linked to vaccinosis.

Please re-think the vet's suggestion that you have Alec smack Gryff's nose if he growls. The folks here have offered so many better ideas on how to help the two get along.

The behaviorist should be a wonderful help, too! We've got our fingers crossed over here that Gryff comes around sooner rather than later.

His pics are adorable!

Wanda


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Alec and Gryff had a good day, until bedtime. Gryff was laying in Alec's bed and he growled twice at him. I ran in to see what happened and Alec said all he did was have his hand in front of Gryff's face. Okay, lecture time. "The dog does not like to have his face obscured or be hugged too tight. He feels very threatened like that. Don't do it!" We'll try again for a growl-free day tomorrow.


----------



## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

He is a cutie and it seems like with a little patience, it will all come together for you. He does look a lot like my Brady did at that age. Brady is a big boy, 17 pounds. He was always on the large side.


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Oh look at that! He does look a lot like Brady. 17 pounds! Wow, that's a biggie. Gryff's mommy is a big dog too. Pure black. The sire looks like Gryff.


----------



## mintchip (Apr 19, 2007)

Oliver looked alot like Gryff as a puppy also. I picked him because I love seeing their eyes. 2 of his brothers are all black


----------



## Suuske747 (May 9, 2007)

Gryff looks a really playful dog in the vid!
I know it's you he's interacting with and your the one with the bond, but I'm sure it will come with your hubby and son if you continue working on the advice ppl have been giving you as you are doing!
Well done!!
And yes we love vids!!!


----------



## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Love the video! He really is a doll! Once Alec understands that Gryff needs his "space" I am sure it will get better. He really sounds like Lily is with "her space"!!


----------



## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

eace: I don't want this to come across the wrong way, but I keep reading over and over that your dog is growling at your son, and yet you are leaving the two alone. I am just very concerned that your son is going to get bit. I really think that the two should only get supervised time together, that way you or your husband will know actually what caused it and you will be able to correct it. I am sorry if this makes you mad, it was not my intention. I just felt I had to say something before I read that he bit your son. eace: 

I know you said you picked the havanese from what you read about them, I think we all did. I know some of what I read was true, they are loving, run like hell, bouncey dogs. But they are dogs, most are not lap dogs like I read, some will love children and some won't, alot are picky eaters, and they do require trainning, some want to be the alpha and some don't. some are yappy and some aren't I know when I read about them it made them sound like the perfect dog, they were lap dogs, not barkers, love children, hardly needed trainning. After getting my boys I realized alot of what I read was not true, and in fact they are a dog, with faults just like every other breed. I think maybe with what is said about the havanese we may be more likely to have our guard down than we would with another breed.

Of course, I think my boys are perfect and I would never own another breed I LOVE MY HAVS.eace:


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Reece, that didn't come across the wrong way at all. Most of the time I am with them together. I want to make sure Alec is touching him properly. I am always there when they play. The first few times he growled, I wasn't there, but learned quickly that I need to make sure I am together with them whenever possible.

Gryff is coming around and so is Alec. We'll all get there.

By the way, I love the picture of your doggie swimming. He looks so comfortable and happy in the water.


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Gryff had his playdate today with my friend's two poodle/maltise/mut mixes. Nada. He cowered in a corner the whole time. He did sniff Bella's nose a little, but that was it. What a head case.

Here is another question for you guys. Does anybody else's dogs behave like this: I come in the front door, he doesn't come running. The doorbell rings, he is not in the slightest bit interested. The vacuum cleaner doesn't scare him, nor does thunder. It is a bit odd, don't you think?


----------



## Suuske747 (May 9, 2007)

Well, even being a puppy, some dogs really have preference as who they want to play with.....
Sierra runs from most dogs that come her way, from a distance she'll be bouncing of fun of dogs approaching, but then when they come closer, she'll most likely run from them, hide behind me, and when they have passed she'll follow them and challenge them to chase her....

Though now and then, there's a dog she has an instant click with, and she'll play like mad....most of those dogs are dogs she can approach on her own terms....

I don't think that makes her unsocialised......I mean you've seen her play with Teun in the vids 
It's like with ppl.....I have 2 sisters, 1 of them will walk up to a stranger and have the best consversations.....the other would rather run the other way when it comes to strangers......whereas I 'll test my waters a bit and then walk up....

Sometimes it's also a matter of character....

PS Reece, I completely agree with you....


----------



## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

My Lily will cower in a corner, or bark at any other dog that comes to my house. she will bark if it is here, and if I take her somewhere else, she just hides behind me or in a corner. It is just the way she is. It takes her a LONG time to trust another person or dog. whereas my other two will go right up and sniff, noses, butts, whatever - just to meet the new dog. 
I wonder - no offense please - if he just needs time to adjust to you guys, your son and hubby and once he feels confident within his own new family, then start introducing to the outside world. Maybe coming to you, and not being quite sure about his place in your house, AND then having all these playdates is just a bit too much for him too soon? I certainly am not an expert in this, but just a thought. 
laurie


----------



## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

Has he had his hearing checked? You said he doesn't respond to those noises. When you call him does he look at you or is only when you move. If he has some hearing issues that could make him testy.


----------



## LuvMyHavanese (Apr 13, 2007)

I was having some issues with Tripp & our trainer told me that his confidence was low. So we are working on that. It will take some time but it will get better as you work with him.


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

His hearing seems to be fine. I spent 15 years with a deaf cat who was a miserable pain the a** and hated me. I don't want to experience that again!


----------



## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

You just made me laugh out loud!! Its like My father in law - I swear we discuss things 3-4 times cause he can hear!! Poor kitty!


----------



## Sissygirl (Aug 8, 2007)

I think I mentioned this book before but it really is a good book

The Loved Dog by Tamar Geller

It really tells of some fun things you can do with the dog that the dog enjoys.

Also, it seems like Gryff might be having a trust issue - maybe he is isolating himself as a protective thing. For him not to be interested in the doorbell, etc does seem odd - he might be having some issues of being afraid.

It's just all a guess - but the main thing is that you gain a mutual respect and he feels loved by his new family.

A friend of ours got a new puppy and her son (not saying your son is doing this) but her son bothered the dog and was unintentionally mean to the dog and the dog wouldn't have anything to do with him and stayed as far away from him as he could. The son constantly aggravated the dog (no respect) and when the mom realized what was going on she had to step in - set down strict rules - and reintroduce the dog to the son so to speak - she and the son spent gentle time with the dog to build up trust. It was loud at their house and the dog was feeling overwhelmed and didn't have any trust with her new family.

She went back to square one and everyone is happy now.

I'm sure Gryff will fit in soon. He is such a cutie! How long have you had him? 

Marie


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

We've had him for a month. I supervise Alec and Gryff and I haven't witnessed anything overly bothersome. Alec used to be afraid of dogs and I think Gryff sensed that. Alec is fine now, but the dog seems to be holding on to it.

I wanted to give you all a Gryff update. He is really starting to hang out with the family more and actually seeking out Chuck and Alec. Today we took him to the park and he was very gracious with other children petting him. We went for a walk into town and he was relatively good on the leash (we haven't worked too hard with him on the leash yet). He had a few dog encounters. I held him in my arms on my lap and let him sniff the dogs. He didn't cower away as much as he has before. He still wouldn't stand on the ground and play or let anybody sniff his butt or vice versa, but he wasn't quite as scared.


----------



## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Ivy, the news keeps getting better and better and I'm sure in time, things will work out very well.  LOVED the video clip - how cute! The pics are adorable. Gryff is a cutiepie as is your son, Alec (my oldest is Alex and is quite the cutie too at 17! lol). 

I agree that Gryff might just need a little more time with some socializing, but it's encouraging to hear about him not being so afraid at the park while on your lap. There's nothing wrong with helping him take baby steps to rid him of his fear of other dogs. If he needs to be on your lap for a while, fine. If he needs talking to in a soothing voice, some pats and even some treats while other dogs are around, then fine. Sounds good!  A month isn't that long a time. Good idea about closing the door to where his crate is! He doesn't seem upset by it and is learning to hang around the family more. 

I have to say though, that the only thing that might happen if Alec smacks Gryff on the nose when Gryff growls, is that the pup will learn that harm comes from those hands, Alec's hands. He will learn to cringe and fear those hands and therefore might get even more aggressive, out of fear of being tapped on the nose. I know it's not a hugely painful thing to do to a dog, but it sure isn't pleasant and Gryff will learn to dread it. 

Rolling the pup onto his back with your hand on his chest and near his head while growling at him, will do wonders! It teaches him that the behavior is not acceptable. When he relaxes under your grip, then you can let go and move on. If Alec can learn to do this without hurting Gryff, then the pup will know that Alec is one of the 'bosses' around the house so he'd better behave. It's not painful, but it's a reminder as to who is alpha.

I'm very curious as to what the behaviourist will say!


----------



## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

It sure sounds like Gryff just needed a little time & is well on his way!! 
Way to go Gryff!!:whoo:


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I re-opened the room where he crate is and he hasn't gone into the crate. He seems to want to be around us more. This morning was encouraging too. I was in my office and Gryff was snoozing on the floor. Alec was still asleep. Alec's teddy bear which has a rattle in it fell on the floor. Gryff immediately got up and walked right into Alec's room to see if he was awake yet. There hasn't been any growling all weekend. A few accidents in the house (grrr), but other than that, it's been bliss.


----------



## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Gryff is probably just one of the more laid back type of Havs. My daughter comes to my house with her 2 Dachsies every oher day, and Kodi still stays in the background, or wants me to hold him. It's good to know he is starting to come around.


----------

