# DNA Tests



## princessp (Aug 2, 2009)

I was wondering if anyone here ever had a DNA test done on their Hav. I guess since most of you bought from breeders, it isn't necessary. We had a DNA test run on Sami. The results are very unexpected. Here is the story... I posted before how we got Sami from a rescue place and didn't know what kind of dog she was (we had never heard of Havanese). Our groomer told us she was Hav and when we looked it up, sure enough, she is like a typical Havanese. We also took her to a dog show that was in the area and some of the Hav breeders looked at her. All of them said she was Hav except for one guy who thought she was a second generation Hav (this was based solely on the fact that she is taller than standard, 13" at shoulders, although he didn't measure her. In fact, they also mentioned what a nice coat she had and what kind of conditioner did we use!) So he mentioned DNA testing which we looked into. The regular swab type tests don't have Havanese in their database. We would have had to do a blood test which was over $100. We decided that was too much and she was Havanese to us! 

Well, a friend of ours (the one with the standard poodles in my pictures) sells pet supplies and gave us one of the swab type tests. We decided to send it in and figured it wouldn't come back with any matches (or maybe something closely related to Havanese, like Maltese or Bichon). I got the results back today. I can't even believe what it says. There is no level 1 result (which would be over 75% of the dog's DNA from this breed). and there is a note that says most mixed breed dogs will not show any breeds under level one unless the dog has a purebred parent. ) This was also expected since Havanese is not in their database.

Level 2: each breed represents 37-74% of your dog's DNA. Sami's came back Chihuahua!

She didn't have anything in levels 2 or 3 which are 20-36% and 10-19% respectively.

Then there is level 5: less than 10% of your dog's DNA. Sami had 4 breeds listed: Bassett Hound, Maltese, Papillon and Scottish Terrier.

These results make no sense! She doesn't have traits of any of these (and I have owned a Chihuahua mix before).

I was just curious if anyone else had done these tests and if the results were what you expected.

Sami...the Chihuahua/Bassett Hound mix!


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

My goodness, Sami is just the cutest bassett/chi I've EVER seen! 

Ha, ha! I'd say I don't think I'd be temped to do one of the swab DNA tests after seeing your results...!


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## RikiDaisyDixie (Apr 15, 2008)

*I think she is a Havanese!*

What if it came back Rotteweiler! LOL


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## mimismom (Feb 15, 2009)

that is just plain weird!!! 

Well I hope you liked your chi because now you have one with a basset hound...


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

I think I would be so curious by now that I would splurge and get the $100 blood test!!


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

I've never heard anything good about those tests. There aren't enough dogs that can be recognized in the database to get accurate results and if you can't get accurate results, what's the point? I wouldn't advise wasting your money. Sami looks like a Havanese to me.


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## psvzum (Jun 11, 2009)

Chihuahua????? 

What a beautiful chihuahua Sami is! :crazy:


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## Metchosin (Jun 29, 2009)

And, maybe there's a chihuahua out there who's now being told it's Havanese


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## princessp (Aug 2, 2009)

You guys are too funny! Not only does Sami look like a Havanese, she acts like a Havanese (from everything I've read about them...RLH, sitting on the back of the couch, shredding tissues, etc.) I've only ever owned mixed breeds and every one of them had some traits of both parents, even if they were very subtle. Sami has no traits of any other dog that I can see. Maybe some of Molly's DNA got mixed in, Molly looks like she could be part chi!


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## Renee (Mar 27, 2008)

Wow...no way that dog is mostly chihauhau!! I bet you about fell over when you read that! I, too, would LOVE to find out what Copper is. I know he has some Tibetan Terrier in him, but it's driving me crazy what he's mixed with. Something that likes to dig, cause that's the only naughty thing he does. He is a "model dog" otherwise. Maybe someday I'll get the DNA test done...just not in the budget right now!


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## Renee (Mar 27, 2008)

Looking at your pics, Sami could have some Tibetan Terrier in her. I would be interested to see a close up of her paws. They have big snowshoe like paws. And how does she lay...with her back legs sprawled out like a frog (havanese), or off to the side (TT)? Havs and Tibetan Terriers have a lot of the same traits, but there are some differences. And Tibetan Terriers are a larger than Havs too. Copper likes to RLH, and has started shredding tissues...after watching Miley do it. He didn't do that when we first got him. (she's a BAD influence on him!) Anyway, just a thought....


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## princessp (Aug 2, 2009)

I'll try to take a picture of her paws, I was going to anyways, because I think she has the cutest paws! She lays a lot of times with her legs like a frog, other times, to the side.


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## Phoebs (May 28, 2009)

This is a hoot. Chihuasset hound? I doubt it! I have not investigated the dog DNA tests being offered but I have some comments. I do genetics, and our lab created the first "genomic library" for the dog, and I was actually doing canine genetics about 12 years ago. My impression from your description is that the testing company has a thin database, and it simply doesn't understand what "Havanese" IS. DNA of any species, is nearly endless strings of only 4 letters: A, T,G,C. That's it. But the order of these letters along the strand is what is important. For any species, really most of the DNA is the same in each individual, but there are some positions, maybe about one in every thousand rungs on the ladder, where you see alternatives. So at a certain variable position, there might be either an A or a G. We call these genetic markers, since you could be "marked" with an A or a G there. These DNA tests are looking at (and only at) a set of positions (a set of markers) where we know we see differences, and your dog's type at each marker is catalogued. The company created their reference database by taking some standard purebred breed samples. They noticed that at a certain position, chihuahuas are usually an A, even though most dogs are a G. So having an A there is associated with chihuahua bloodlines. Then they derived a set of markers that are like this, establishing a sort of fingerprint for chihuahua descent. But there is nothing in the DNA that says "chihuahua"-just that chihuahuas tend to carry a variation at a marker that is common in them, and much less common in other breeds- and when you see a dog with a bunch of variations that are more common in chihuahuas then you can conclude that they are part chihuahua. Of course this is not by surprise. Chihuahuas all have genes for short stature, a pointy (not flat) shout, and a little cute tail etc. They share the version of growth hormone and receptor genes that make them short, and so they share any genetic markers that are near those genes that yield chihuahua physical and behavioral traits. Another toy breed like Havanese, might carry the same version of those growth hormone and receptor genes as well as the genetic markers near the genes.... they are both small dogs. But at other places in the genome, they aren't the same. 

What the company needs to do is to get a little interest in basic knowledge, and do typing of more breeds. If they typed a few dozen Havanese, they might find that the Havanese fingerprint is characterized by "chihuahua here" and Bassett there". 

Maybe we should offer to send them samples to genotype and add to teach their database! 

By the way, I had no clue sitting on the back of the couch was a havanese thing. Phoebe loves to do that! And she just took up with the paper shredding thing recently. I usually complain that she's "helping with the recycling"...


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## mybella (May 16, 2008)

*DNA test done*

My sister had one of those DNA test done on her dogs too. She got crazy results back that made no sense either. I don't think the tests are refined enough yet. Your dog is beautifiul and that is all that matters.

Marie


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

Phoebs said:


> This is a hoot. Chihuasset hound? I doubt it! I have not investigated the dog DNA tests being offered but I have some comments. I do genetics, and our lab created the first "genomic library" for the dog, and I was actually doing canine genetics about 12 years ago. My impression from your description is that the testing company has a thin database, and it simply doesn't understand what "Havanese" IS. DNA of any species, is nearly endless strings of only 4 letters: A, T,G,C. That's it. But the order of these letters along the strand is what is important. For any species, really most of the DNA is the same in each individual, but there are some positions, maybe about one in every thousand rungs on the ladder, where you see alternatives. So at a certain variable position, there might be either an A or a G. We call these genetic markers, since you could be "marked" with an A or a G there. These DNA tests are looking at (and only at) a set of positions (a set of markers) where we know we see differences, and your dog's type at each marker is catalogued. The company created their reference database by taking some standard purebred breed samples. They noticed that at a certain position, chihuahuas are usually an A, even though most dogs are a G. So having an A there is associated with chihuahua bloodlines. Then they derived a set of markers that are like this, establishing a sort of fingerprint for chihuahua descent. But there is nothing in the DNA that says "chihuahua"-just that chihuahuas tend to carry a variation at a marker that is common in them, and much less common in other breeds- and when you see a dog with a bunch of variations that are more common in chihuahuas then you can conclude that they are part chihuahua. Of course this is not by surprise. Chihuahuas all have genes for short stature, a pointy (not flat) shout, and a little cute tail etc. They share the version of growth hormone and receptor genes that make them short, and so they share any genetic markers that are near those genes that yield chihuahua physical and behavioral traits. Another toy breed like Havanese, might carry the same version of those growth hormone and receptor genes as well as the genetic markers near the genes.... they are both small dogs. But at other places in the genome, they aren't the same.
> 
> What the company needs to do is to get a little interest in basic knowledge, and do typing of more breeds. If they typed a few dozen Havanese, they might find that the Havanese fingerprint is characterized by "chihuahua here" and Bassett there".
> 
> ...


Thanks for the lesson in genetics/testing. I've never quite understood how it was done - you did a great job explaining at the layman's level.!


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## princessp (Aug 2, 2009)

Thank you for the great explanation of the test! I agree, they need to get some Havanese DNA. No matter the results, Sami is still one spoiled princess! (and we know what she is, despite the crazy results!


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Jill in Mich said:


> Thanks for the lesson in genetics/testing. I've never quite understood how it was done - you did a great job explaining at the layman's level.!


My thoughts exactly, Jill.

Thanks, Phoebs!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I remember someone from AKC saying not too long after they started the DNA database for Frequently Used Sires that they could pretty closely guess which breed one was by their DNA sheet. It turns out that the Havanese is the most genetically diverse breed of the breeds that have had their Genetic Diversity studied. This may seem contradictory at first but you can have a large population with a small genetic diversity as well as a small population with a large genetic diversity. If you go beyond the test to just recognize a Havanese as a Havanese, it turns out that it looks like they do share chromosomes with several breeds like the Maltese and others, so it is quite possible that the dog in question here may indeed have some Hav in there somewhere.

There are large databases of breed specific DNA around. Even AKC's, which uses a limited number of the available Chromosomes, is quite large now. http://www.akc.org/dna/dna_update.cfm


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

good buddy said:


> I've never heard anything good about those tests. There aren't enough dogs that can be recognized in the database to get accurate results and if you can't get accurate results, what's the point? I wouldn't advise wasting your money. Sami looks like a Havanese to me.


Ditto ! 

Love your new chi mix! lol


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