# Miniature Havanese?



## susieg

I met a couple at the mall on Sunday with an adorable havanese puppy. They said he was a miniature havanese. I told them I didn't believe there was such a thing?! She replied that havanese come in 3 different sizes, standard, mini and teacup....just like poodles. My husband started arguing that there was no such thing and I just shuffled him along....didn't want to get into an argument with strangers about whether or not their dog breed exists. They were a nice couple and their pup was so cute. I did a quick google search for mini hav and did find some sites referring to minis and teacups....the smaller the dog, the more expensive they were. I think a "mini" or "teacup" havanese is just a breeder trying to pass off a smaller dog as rare or special so they can charge more for it....but maybe I'm wrong?


----------



## mellowbo

You are right, there is no such thing as a minature Havanese. It's just another "designer dog" thing and I really pray for the health of that puppy!
Carole


----------



## brookeandcolby

When I was looking at breeders for my puppy I found several that advertised "mini havanese". I didn't think that sounded right so I decided to steer clear!


----------



## marjrc

Susie, you and your husband are absolutely right! Some breeders do pass on the tinier puppies as "special" and exclusive, but that isn't the case. Sure, some very small Havs are fine, have no health issues and make great pets, but they are not the standard. Just as the 20-lb'es aren't the standard but make fine Havs.

There are no mini, teacup or tiny Hav in the breed! UGH. This makes me sick. :frusty:


----------



## Beamer

Yup, that 'designer characteristic' of teacup or mini only exists with BYB's and puppy mills. (or pet stores, who buy from the mills and byb's)

Ryan


----------



## susieg

I've seen that for maltese and other small breeds, but never for havs until I did an actual search for "miniature havanese". I guess now that havs are getting to be more popular, there are more shady breeders out there.


----------



## Havtahava

Beamer said:


> Yup, that 'designer characteristic' of teacup or mini only exists with BYB's and puppy mills. (or pet stores, who buy from the mills and byb's)
> 
> Ryan


^ yep!


----------



## margaretandluigi

Desilu weighs a very healthy 12 lbs. How much smaller do people want these dogs to get? I have friends who have 3 and 4 pound Yorkies. I literally have fur balls in my house bigger than their dogs.


----------



## marjrc

margaretandluigi said:


> Desilu weighs a very healthy 12 lbs. How much smaller do people want these dogs to get? I have friends who have 3 and 4 pound Yorkies. I literally have fur balls in my house bigger than their dogs.


Margaret, it sickens me when people come into the store I work at and proudly proclaim that THEIR new puppy will only weigh 2 lbs as an adult! Sometimes it's a Chihuahua or Yorkie, or even mini poodles, but they want them small and in their minds, the smaller the better. :frusty:


----------



## Leslie

And the scariest thing of all, is those little bitty ones often have severe (as in life-threatening) liver problems, among other health issues. Given the definition those who breed them give, my Shadow would have fit their criteria for a mini. A liver that was only 60% normal size definitely contributed to her death at only 8 mos. old 

I love Amanda's reply once to this issue, "For Pete's sake! If you want an animal that will fit in a pocket, get a hamster!" ound:


----------



## Luciledodd

Amen to this. Rosie's breeder said that Rosie was going to be to little to show or to use for breeding, that is why I got her cheaper than the others (with spay contract). But at nearly 11 months she now weighs nearly 9 pounds and boy am I glad. I believe she will reach the 10 pound standard. She just got off to a bad start.


----------



## sashamom

This is a website to a breeder that sells the minis and the teenys. I wish there was a way to stop this type of breeding. One puppy on the site is a little female that weighs 2 1/2 lbs at 9 months. My Sasha is smaller than some of the Havs but she weighs about 9 lbs, I wish she weighed just a little more. 
http://www.wheatstate.com/~denson/


----------



## Julie

That wheatstate hav site is where I have seen the mini/teenie ones and there was a member here who bought one of her puppies. In fact----a tiny one with health issues. She had a hellava time with him. His name was Darby. Do a search on here for Darby and you can read about the reasons NOT to buy a small one. In fact----last I knew that Wheatstate breeder had publicly addressed on HER WEBSITE this complaint that was made against her from Darby's owner.I happen to side with Darby's owner.............

None the less--we haven't had an update on Darby in a very long time,so I'm not sure how he turned out. They were spending thousands on health issues. Older forum members should remember this?


----------



## Pixiesmom

I have one of the small ones, as everyone knows. She reached 6 lbs and I'm happy about that-it was a milestone I was hoping she'd reach, although lucky 7 would have been the best. Who knows-she may grow even more. I emailed her breeder that website about the "teeny tiny" havanese, and she was disgusted. There can definitely be issues with these little guys, but so far so good with mine. Both mom and dad were standard size by the way. I suppose it just happens from time to time. Teacup-a term coined to make $$. They do the same with the "Imperial" shih tzus. It's all a marketing ploy and people who don't know better get suckered in.


----------



## ama0722

Leslie- good reminder  I dont see it here in South Carolina but it drove me crazy in Los Angeles.

Back when I lived in LA, I was taking agility classes with Belle in Century City. That is the first time I heard the categories of teacup, mini, and toy but it was with maltese. Everytime Belle went to the dog park, she was referred to as the "teacup maltese!" Ironically Belle is in the middle of the maltese standard but with the pet stores that is where you get an upcharge- the famous Beverly Hills one had those categories and I think it was about $500 difference for each category..... ugh! The dog I sat for was a "toy" but she wanted a teacup lol!


----------



## LilyMyLove

from that website:
_"A good quality, healthy, true teenie tiny size Havanese 
should sell for $3500 (and up) on a spay/neuter contract. 
Rare colors and smallest sizes 
will bring the higher prices. 
A teenie tiny size Havanese 
should weigh under 5.5 pounds as an adult.

They are extremely rare and very hard to find! 
I am sure you have heard the saying,
"You get what you pay for!" 
Unfortunately, the Havanese market 
has been flooded with cheap puppy mill babies,
and breeders using labels of mini and teenie tiny 
to sell their regular size runt puppies for more money.

Most of our dogs have either come from Europe, 
or their parents came from Europe.
We have found the European bred dogs to be healthier,
with less inbreeding and fewer hereditary problems.
When we went to Europe for our dogs,
We spent time researching and searching out quality kennels.
...Kennels that had produced many European Champions,
... and even World Champions. 
We bought our dogs from these people of charcter. 
We didn't just import a couple dozen tiny 6 week old puppies,
knowing that many would not make the trip, 
because it was the cheapest way to import dogs.
We purchased our dogs as small puppies, 
then we waited until the dogs were at least 4 months old 
to have them evaluated by the kennel owners 
to make sure they were healthy 
and of good character and form.
The breeders of our puppies 
wanted to make sure that they were sending us their BEST!
They knew we were wanting to buy and breed quality.
We paid extra to have them shipped to us 
on the same type of animal transport flights 
that the large USA zoos use to transport animals.
We didn't go to Puppyfind 
and purchase a few cheap, halfbreed mutts
with false papers and fake pedigrees
to start our breeding program!

When we started our mini breeding program
over 5 years ago
and our teenie tiny breeding program
over 4 years ago, 
I did not go out and buy a bunch of runt puppies 
and throw them together to make minis.
I searched very carefully. 
I never chose a runt of the litter. 
I looked for naturally small parents. 
I looked for naturally small grandparents.
I looked for the shorter cute teddybear noses 
and the slightly wavy thick coats.
I was picky! 
I wanted our puppies to be the best they could be! 
We are still working on perfecting our lines.
because every once in a while, 
a puppy will grow a little larger than we anticipated. 
But, our lines are healthy and they are naturally small. 
Our puppies have wonderful personalities and character. 
The parents and grandparents 
of our mini and teenie tiny puppies are small. 
We are not just selling you the runt
of a regular sized litter
for a higher price."_

Delusional much?!?!


----------



## Wildflower

I had read one time that some of the breeders who DO try to sell "minis" or "teacups" of certain breeds not meant to have a "mini" or "teacup" will go through some horrible antics to do this. In once instance, the puppies are somehow forced to birth too early and then they aren't fed properly, keeping them from growing and therefore staying on the small side.  There were other ways as well, but that sickened me when I read it.

Someone will buy one of these puppies thinking they are getting a "mini" version of their breed when instead they are getting one very unhealthy dog.


----------



## Pixiesmom

LilyMyLove said:


> from that website:
> _"A good quality, healthy, true teenie tiny size Havanese
> should sell for $3500 (and up) on a spay/neuter contract.
> Rare colors and smallest sizes
> will bring the higher prices.
> A teenie tiny size Havanese
> should weigh under 5.5 pounds as an adult.
> 
> They are extremely rare and very hard to find!
> I am sure you have heard the saying,
> "You get what you pay for!"
> Unfortunately, the Havanese market
> has been flooded with cheap puppy mill babies,
> and breeders using labels of mini and teenie tiny
> to sell their regular size runt puppies for more money.
> 
> Most of our dogs have either come from Europe,
> or their parents came from Europe.
> We have found the European bred dogs to be healthier,
> with less inbreeding and fewer hereditary problems.
> When we went to Europe for our dogs,
> We spent time researching and searching out quality kennels.
> ...Kennels that had produced many European Champions,
> ... and even World Champions.
> We bought our dogs from these people of charcter.
> We didn't just import a couple dozen tiny 6 week old puppies,
> knowing that many would not make the trip,
> because it was the cheapest way to import dogs.
> We purchased our dogs as small puppies,
> then we waited until the dogs were at least 4 months old
> to have them evaluated by the kennel owners
> to make sure they were healthy
> and of good character and form.
> The breeders of our puppies
> wanted to make sure that they were sending us their BEST!
> They knew we were wanting to buy and breed quality.
> We paid extra to have them shipped to us
> on the same type of animal transport flights
> that the large USA zoos use to transport animals.
> We didn't go to Puppyfind
> and purchase a few cheap, halfbreed mutts
> with false papers and fake pedigrees
> to start our breeding program!
> 
> When we started our mini breeding program
> over 5 years ago
> and our teenie tiny breeding program
> over 4 years ago,
> I did not go out and buy a bunch of runt puppies
> and throw them together to make minis.
> I searched very carefully.
> I never chose a runt of the litter.
> I looked for naturally small parents.
> I looked for naturally small grandparents.
> I looked for the shorter cute teddybear noses
> and the slightly wavy thick coats.
> I was picky!
> I wanted our puppies to be the best they could be!
> We are still working on perfecting our lines.
> because every once in a while,
> a puppy will grow a little larger than we anticipated.
> But, our lines are healthy and they are naturally small.
> Our puppies have wonderful personalities and character.
> The parents and grandparents
> of our mini and teenie tiny puppies are small.
> We are not just selling you the runt
> of a regular sized litter
> for a higher price."_
> 
> Delusional much?!?!


To quote Charlie Brown-"Good grief".


----------



## BeverlyA

You beat me to it Julie! It was little Darby, who always looked so sad in his pictures, that came from that breeder. 
I reached out the them about a year ago or so and she said that they were doing fine and I believe had moved. 

It's bad enough the thing those breeders do to get puppies, but then to lie to get even more money from unsuspecting people for possibly unhealthy pups..:rant:

Good for your husband for knowing about "real" Havanese standards! 

Beverly


----------



## deejay

As a poodle lover as well as havanese I can state there are no teacup poodles either. The smallest are toy and that is small enough for me.


----------



## Missy

This really saddens me. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with smaller havs. The breed has a big weight range. We purposely looked for Havs on the larger end (we thought 15lbs tops...LOL) and there are some who may look for pups on the smaller end of the range. But to purposely breed tiny tiny havs is just wrong. Havanese are supposed to be sturdy little dogs!


----------



## Skye

Yes, check out affordablepup.com, and check out their "teacup info." I am just beginning my puppy search; I am hoping to get one next year sometime. This website is scary!


----------



## marjrc

Oh my gosh, Skye. did you read the 'warning'? http://affordablepup.com/teacup_info Great way to cover their .... !  If you look at their "meet our family" staff page, you'll notice they have degrees in business/economics/mathematics. Guess they can run the business of breeding multiple 'teacup' breeds very well! GRrrr!!!

And don't get me started on their $10 charge to view "your pup" by appt. only.

O.k.,,... this thread is making me see red!


----------



## juliav

deejay said:


> As a poodle lover as well as havanese I can state there are no teacup poodles either. The smallest are toy and that is small enough for me.


Ditto! There is also no Royal Standard Poodles, just Standard Poodles. This term too was a marketing tool to charge more for larger dogs. Just like with tinies, extra large means extra helalth problems.


----------



## galaxie

I like how the site says "a true teeny tiny Havanese..." REALLY? TRUE? FALSE - BECAUSE THERE IS NO SUCH THING!! I mean really, there is no classification for Havanese size, and ones that small obviously do not meet breed standard.

Ugh, this makes me want to punch something!


----------



## Mojo's Mom

Also note that in that "true teeny tiny Havanese" breeders dissertation on their breeding history they make it clear that they have bred for appearance only. They mention health and personality in passing, but they make it clear they have been breeding specifically for stunted growth and flattened faces. Nice....

The end product is no Havanese at all.


----------



## Skye

marjrc said:


> Oh my gosh, Skye. did you read the 'warning'? http://affordablepup.com/teacup_info Great way to cover their .... !  If you look at their "meet our family" staff page, you'll notice they have degrees in business/economics/mathematics. Guess they can run the business of breeding multiple 'teacup' breeds very well! GRrrr!!!
> 
> And don't get me started on their $10 charge to view "your pup" by appt. only.
> 
> O.k.,,... this thread is making me see red!


Yes, I found this site especially creepy!


----------



## Amy R.

Oh, this website is absolutely chilling. ;-(


----------



## LilyMyLove

I know a girl with a "pocket" yorkie.(I'm not friends with this person) It was an extremely misguided gift from a boyfriend and she admits that it has tons of health problems. Its scarcely bigger than a guinea pig and never leaves the house because it would get trampled even going for a stroll in the park. 
It's creepy how far people will go for a portable "live accessory".


----------



## Pixiesmom

The thing that bugs me the most is the referral pages-where people are so very thrilled with their new puppy. So thrilled that they bought another. I feel like screaming "NOOOOO!, don't you get it??!!" Sadly, I think that many people just really want what they want, and don't care how it got that way or where it came from, and the cycle will go on and on .


----------



## TheVintageVamp

yuck......just yuck....those two sites turned my stomach.


----------



## trueblue

That affordable pups site is ridiculous! The home page talks about coccidia and guardia right off the bat? Like that's expected when you bring home a puppy?


----------



## galaxie

^ I know right? THEY ARE DISEASES! Healthy puppies do not have diseases


----------



## Posh's Mom

yeah, you can't even view a "web cam" of these pups without pay ten bucks. what the hell is this place?

oh i see now clearly, IT'S A PUPPY BROKER getting dogs from puppy mills. 

insert vomiting.


----------



## marjrc

I wonder if the "owners"/operators will come running here :spy: to post 'tsk tsk' replies and defend their business.... should be interesting!! :evil:


----------



## dbeech

marjrc said:


> I wonder if the "owners"/operators will come running here :spy: to post 'tsk tsk' replies and defend their business.... should be interesting!! :evil:


I doubt the owners care enough to even visit a Havanese forum.


----------



## Skye

I feel sorry for the poor souls thinking they are getting a deal...yikes!


----------



## Beamer

Anyway to inform the public of this disgraceful website? Takes quite a bit for me to get weirded out.. but this did it!

Ryan


----------

