# Struggling with what to feed!



## myownhavanese

The puppy comes home next week and I'm struggling with what to feed him. I know after searching, everyone has a different opinion on this subject. 

The breeder recommended orijen for dry or primal, Stella and chewy, sojos, or THK for raw. I don't have any concept of how much each bag of these feed and I'd like to get the most for my money (I unfortunately don't have a never-ending supply of cash...I just want to do right by my new little guy). She told me she feeds her puppies raw from the beginning, but that it's a brand she can only get at dog shows. So, I know you're supposed to slowly wean a puppy onto new food...what should I do? Also what are your opinions on those brands? Which (besides the kibble) stretches the farthest? And if i choose to do the kibble, it's not doing any harm, correct...

Thanks! 
Jen


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## davetgabby

feed the best you can afford. Freeze dried raw is the most expensive ,kibble the cheapest.


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## krandall

Also, along with what Dave said, if you need to keep costs down, there is nothing to say you can't feed kibble one meal a day, and freeze dried raw the other meal. Even a few meals a week of FDR will improve the overall nutrition for your dog.


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## myownhavanese

I'd like to do better than kibble for him. I just don't understand the freeze dried stuff. Does anyone have a rough idea how long the bags of freeze dried last so i can figure out cost comparison?


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## davetgabby

varies depending on your dog and life stages. Four times the price of kibble but four times better . JMO

http://truthaboutpetfood.com/freeze-drying-dehydrating-theres-a-difference/


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## davetgabby

you might want to start with freeze dried for a while as this is closest to raw . Make sure to hydrate it well when feeding. If you want to add kibble , do it slowly over two weeks.


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## Marni

My breeder used kibble, now I am mixing it with a frozen raw product to see if it helps with new puppy's hiccups and runny eyes.


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## myownhavanese

So interestingly...my vet told me to feed dry kibble not a raw diet. That he would never feed his own dogs raw. There's the risk of salmonella and whatever else. And also that they're not wolves and too much protein can be bad too. (And probably more, but I had too much info today that I'm losing some of it)

Does anyone have any research articles I can show him about raw being better? He said he'll read anything I show him...

I told him I was trying HK, but that Opie wasn't interested in it last night, but liked the puppy Orijen. He wants me to keep the Orijen and get rid of the HK. 

Thoughts? Comments? 

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## krandall

Well, as far as I know, freeze dried raw does not have the dangers of commercial or even home made raw diets. (Which are really minimal for people with normal immune systems, and not really a problem for dogs at all. (You have no idea what rotten things dogs can eat and not get sick from!!! :laugh

It is definitely true that dogs are NOT wolves and are NOT obligate carnivores. They can and do process other types of food besides meat. But a GOOD raw diet ISN'T just meat. AND a good quality COOKED diet is very close to a raw diet in terms of nutritional value, and then there is no more risk than what you feed your family every night. 

A top quality kibble isn't the worst diet in the world, but the biggest problem with kibble is that dogs who are fed a kibble-only diet very often live their entire lives in a state of mild dehydration. So at LEAST wet the kibble if that is what you choose to feed.

As far as The Honest Kitchen is concerned, they use human grade ingredients, and the food is freeze dried. So it is as safe as freeze dried back packing food, for instance. I have a compromised immune system, due to drugs I must take. For that reason, I won't feed my dogs either home made or commercial frozen raw. I have NO compunction about feeding THK. That was what I fed Kodi regularly until, unfortunately, he developed food sensitivities that required that I feed him a limited ingredient diet. I am THRILLED to see that THK has JUST started producing two different limited ingredient foods that he can eat. I will most likely be going back to that as soon as I finish the (several cases) of very good quality canned food I have on hand!


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## krandall

That all said, you should START your puppy with whatever the breeder was feeding him, then SLOWLY transition him to whatever new food you choose.


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## Bowie's Mom

I got Bowie at a little over 8 weeks old, his breeder fed him adult NOW and I continued that for a month. Then I switched him to adult Orijen, which he loves. I always add a bit of steamed broccoli to the kibble. A 13lb bag lasts about a month.


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## myownhavanese

I don't know what the breeder feed him. She said it's a raw diet that she gets in bulk at the dog shows. She recommended orijen, so I just bought it. He's eating it ok. Didn't eat a full days requirement today, but pretty close. 

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## emichel

Frozen raw is not as expensive as the freeze dried raw, so you might start with that, unless there are reasons you want to avoid raw. Benjamin was doing well on the Nature's Variety Instinct, varying between beef and turkey, for quite some time. Then I switched to Stella and Chewy's because it's a few bucks cheaper. He is getting the Surf and Turf (beef and salmon). Hey, he eats better than I do! When he was a puppy (he's almost 5 now) I consulted with a canine nutritionist, Sabine, who Dave recommends. She created a custom home cooked diet for him, which I dutifully cooked every week as I don't have a large freezer to store things in. Sabine's consultation rates are quite reasonable, I think, and it was worth it to me because at the time I too was feeling overwhelmed about all of the choices, and wanted to give him the best I could afford. I didn't want to deal with feeding home made raw because you have to mess with a lot of yucky ingredients (that was my take on it, I'm sure a lot of people don't mind), but the great thing about Sabine's diets is that you tell her what ingredients you and/or your dog likes, and she will work with that. The diet she created for me consisted of ground beef and turkey, several vegetables, and a vitamin mixture that is specific to your dog, along with some eggs and fruit a few times a week. I stopped using this as his primary diet because, to be honest, I don't much like cooking and I got tired of it. However, if you want to feed your dog really healthy food at minimal cost, I think this is the way to go. Just don't try to do it on your own, because you might be missing some important nutrients which could have a very bad effect in the long run. I actually do cook up this recipe about once a month, and feed it to him for about a week out of the month, which saves me some money. I don't even bother tapering him from one to the other any more, as it doesn't seem to bother him when I switch, but when he was younger I would give him half of that and half of the other food for a few days when I was switching between them.

Anyhoo... all of that is to say, it _can_ be overwhelming at first. However, one thing I've learned is that we are lucky to have so many good choices, and I don't think it matters that much as long as you're picking a good one and your dog likes it. How do you know if it's a good one? Check the Dog Food Adviser website, and choose one that has 5, or at least 4 stars. If the dog likes it and is healthy, you're good! Oh, and try to relax and enjoy the ride. I think I spent too much time worrying and obsessing when he was a puppy. :smile2:


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## emichel

I forgot to say... he also gets a small amount of kibble (1/4 cup) in the morning. The Taste of the Wild is a good grain free alternative that's a little more affordable than some of the others. He likes the Pacific Stream variety, with smoked salmon as the protein. Not too bad, eh? Keep in mind that my dog is large for a Havanese (23 pounds) -- not fat, just big -- so he is entitled to more calories a day than a little 8 pound dog would eat! Not good for me because it costs me more to feed him, but very good for him because he _loves_ to eat and would be very upset if he only got 1/3 as many calories! :laugh2:


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## krandall

myownhavanese said:


> I don't know what the breeder feed him. She said it's a raw diet that she gets in bulk at the dog shows. She recommended orijen, so I just bought it. He's eating it ok. Didn't eat a full days requirement today, but pretty close.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Don't worry about him being a little "off his feed" in the first few days (or longer). This is common with a puppy settling into his new home.

Also, don't be worried if he ends up with loose stools with a drastic change in diet like from frozen commercial raw to Orijens. With any change in dog food, even with adult dogs, you want to do it over a period of SEVERAL days, slowly mixing the new food in. This is to prevent tummy upset for a sudden change in diet. It is even more important for a puppy. Most breeders not sending a puppy home with a supply of the food they were raised on, so that the new owner can transition them slowly.


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## Marni

Kozmo gobbles up his primal rabbit frozen. I mix in the breeders' kibble, about two tablespoons. He loves the food and wolf's it down greedily. He has been on this for two of his fifteen weeks. These raw mini bricks smell delicious, and have greens and blueberries and such as their 15 per cent non-meat. No difference in gummy eyes, but he is biting human mom less and picking up fewer leaves and sticks to chew.


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## Barbara Levy

I feed grain free Holistic Selects wet food and kibble with a tablespoon or two of whatever fruits and veggies we are having (he loves them). I rotate different proteins - fish, chicken, duck, turkey. He gets primarily canned - 1/2 can and 1/4 c. kibble a day. I tried freeze dried raw for over a month and could never get Loki's stool to firm up. You have to feed what works for you, your dog, your lifestyle and your pocketbook. The dog food advisor (Dog Food Reviews and Ratings | Dog Food Advisor) rates food so you can judge how they rate against each other.


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## Tux's Mom

Primal also comes in raw frozen. Takes no time at all to thaw. You can buy it in pellets or little bricks. Go to their website food calculator. You can easily tell how much to feed and cost of each bag. Some varieties (they offer duck, chicken, beef, salmon, etc.) are more expensive than others so you have to price each individually. I fed Tux (he was 10 weeks when I got him) a primal brick and he gobbled it. I think I fed one meal where I mixed kibble and Primal, but after that it was just Primal. He's eaten it ever since with NO, I repeat NO digestive issues from day one. His bowel movements are few and far between, small, solid, dark. His coat is soft and healthy. He has boundless energy. He is over one year old now. Not too long ago there was a very helpful link to a video of a vet explaining the best to worst foods to feed your pet. I can't remember if it was Dave Gabby or Karen Krandall who posted. You definitely should watch that from beginning to end. You could save a fortune in future vet bills and heartbreak compared to the extra cost for quality food. PS When food is not filled with fillers (grains), it takes much less food to keep your dog in optimal health.


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## Tux's Mom

Tux after 9 months of Primal. He was 11 months old in this photo.


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## Charleysmom

Karen, 

First, congratulations on the 3rd hav. You had two the last time I was here. Three havs - that's a lot of fun and love!!


I'm wondering what you feed your havs? I've been feeding Charley Origen for years (always soaked) and Charley seemed fine until late winter when he started itching. I tried so many things and finally took him off the Origen and it helped immediately and I temporarily put him back on Organix which is what he was fed at Starborn almost 6 years ago. 

But I don't know where to go from here and I'm wondering what you do?

What would you suggest?


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## Marni

I am now using primal freeze dried nuggets in turkey and sardine, primal frozen in duck pellets (I will rotate this with rabbit bricks and others) with a little Fromm Puppy Gold, late in the day if he goes to his empty bowl and looks at me sweetly. His fecal is firm but not hard, and there is a very small amount. He is perfect weight wise at 22 weeks, and his coat is both pearly and glossy. Maybe we can't all feed the same thing so recommendations are pretty pointless, but I can recommend the bowls to use! These are on Amazon and keep the floor clean and stay in place. Kosmo is a boyish boy, but pink was on sale and he is very open minded to color.


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## Dee Dee

I have always had dogs with health issues so my thinking may be a little skewed but even though it's never killed a dog I would not feed kibble, or even commercial foot, myself. Many do great on it that are genetically strong to begin with but it would be like us eating a complete nutrition processed cereal all of our lives. I home cook for Sophie who has major tummy issues but only with the guidance of our holistic vet, it's very hard to do on your own and have it be balanced to not have other problems crop up down the road. Like others said Sabine would be a great one to turn to if you go that route.

If you get Netflix watch Dog Fooled. It's really good, Dr. Karen Becker is in it also and explains a lot about how bad commercial "can" be for dogs over a life time. Again many get lucky and have a dog who will do fine on kibble all their lives in spite of it not being the best but since my experience has always been unhealthy dogs I want to give them the best chance possible to be healthy as we can. 

Expensive though! And time consuming! I don't like that part and I HATE to cook. But feels good to set the bowl down at meal time.


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## krandall

Charleysmom said:


> Karen,
> 
> First, congratulations on the 3rd hav. You had two the last time I was here. Three havs - that's a lot of fun and love!!
> 
> I'm wondering what you feed your havs? I've been feeding Charley Origen for years (always soaked) and Charley seemed fine until late winter when he started itching. I tried so many things and finally took him off the Origen and it helped immediately and I temporarily put him back on Organix which is what he was fed at Starborn almost 6 years ago.
> 
> But I don't know where to go from here and I'm wondering what you do?
> 
> What would you suggest?


Thanks, Panda is 19 months old now, so we've had the "whole gang" for quite a while! 

Food is SUCH a personal decision, and it depends SO much on the needs of your dog. Kodi has a bunch of food intolerances which has made it hard to find the right food for him. I can't feed raw for a number of reasons, but did use The Honest Kitchen, and really liked it. So did Kodi. But then his allergies got worse and we really needed him on a limited ingredient diet. I decided to go with an excellent quality commercial limited ingredient food that offered several protein sources. We ended up using Nature's Variety. We started with Limited Ingredient Duck, and when, after about 3 years, he started having trouble with duck (and it is not at all unusual for a dog with food intolerances to become sensitized to other foods, especially proteins, over time) Now he's on NV Limited Ingredient Turkey, and doing well again. However, I would NEVER go in the direction of a specific limited ingredient diet without first doing testing to figure out what the dog was sensitive to.

Nature's Variety Limited Ingredient food is available in both canned and kibble. They get kibble for breakfast and canned (with their supplements) for supper. Fortunately, the girls seem to do fine on it too, so we aren't doing multiple different meals. (bad enough with the supplements!!! :laugh: )

But, other than learning what are "better" and "worse" foods, I think when it comes down to specifics, it's just too individual for someone to just take someone else's suggestion because of what's working for them and their dog(s). Even with just Kodi, the answer has changed several times in his life time!


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## abi38

Now I am feeling bad. I feed mine Kirkland Signature small dog (4.5 stars according to dog food advisor web site), supplement it with frozen raw from a local company (Darwin) that deliver. My goal is alternate kibble and raw every other day or so, unless I am forget to thaw the raw food. I also give them raw beef bones from Asian groceries store a few times a month.

For a while Zelda had hive looking flaky circles all over her loin (not itchy) that the vet thought were allergy related. I got a anti bacterial/fungal skin spray from the vet for it and I tried a bunch of different food/different ingredient. But eventually it just went away.

My biggest problem with food is how to help Zelda loose weight. I can only feed her a little as 1/8 cup of kibble for her to lose weight. I feel so bad giving her so little food. Granted partly is because she'd get food somewhere else (training treats, stolen food, human food dropped). She still has "blubber" under her skin right even she's down to less than 12lb.


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## DuketheDog

Well this has been an extremely informative thread! Now it's making me question if I'm not feeding my puppy right... :/ 

When I got Duke from the breeder she was feeding him Royal Canin soft moouse and Mini Puppy Hard food

So we just stuck with that, followed the bag directions. Duke gets Royal Canin Mini Puppy 5/8 of a cup split into three for breakfast lunch and dinner. For extra snack and food we give him the soft puppy royal canin canned food ( Usually in is kong)


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## Heather's

We have always added a meat and vegetables to Scout and Truffles kibble. I have always fed them Orijen or Acana. A few weeks ago I bought NOW which is Canadian. Scout and Truffles love it. The kibble is very small and would be great for a puppy.


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## krandall

abi38 said:


> Now I am feeling bad. I feed mine Kirkland Signature small dog (4.5 stars according to dog food advisor web site), supplement it with frozen raw from a local company (Darwin) that deliver. My goal is alternate kibble and raw every other day or so, unless I am forget to thaw the raw food. I also give them raw beef bones from Asian groceries store a few times a month.
> 
> For a while Zelda had hive looking flaky circles all over her loin (not itchy) that the vet thought were allergy related. I got a anti bacterial/fungal skin spray from the vet for it and I tried a bunch of different food/different ingredient. But eventually it just went away.
> 
> My biggest problem with food is how to help Zelda loose weight. I can only feed her a little as 1/8 cup of kibble for her to lose weight. I feel so bad giving her so little food. Granted partly is because she'd get food somewhere else (training treats, stolen food, human food dropped). She still has "blubber" under her skin right even she's down to less than 12lb.


Why should you feel bad about that?!?! Sounds like your dogs eat very well. We use kibble part of the time too, mostly because my husband likes to feed them in the mornings, and doesn't want to bother with anything bu tkibble, but it also makes travel easier if you have something dry that you know you can get just about anywhere. (I HAVE ended up at a multi-day trial several hours away, only to find that I let the dog food at home!!!  )

Who knows what Zelda's skin problem was, but if it went away and didn't come back, it's VERY unlikely to have been an allergy problem.

As far as weight loss is concerned, I know you already know the answer!  Control the calories in! Mine don't get much at meal time either, because it is very important to me that they remain trim and fit for sports. And although we DO use lots of training treats, I make sure that it is good quality, highly nutritious food that we use for training. Mine get very little "people food". They share an egg when we have eggs 2-3 days a week, and they get steamed veggies (whatever we are eating) in the evenings. Kodi also LOVES to share fresh fruit with Dave, though the girls think he's nuts.  They never get any people "junk food" or sweets other than the fruit.


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## Barbara Levy

abi38 said:


> Now I am feeling bad. I feed mine Kirkland Signature small dog (4.5 stars according to dog food advisor web site), supplement it with frozen raw from a local company (Darwin) that deliver. My goal is alternate kibble and raw every other day or so, unless I am forget to thaw the raw food. I also give them raw beef bones from Asian groceries store a few times a month.
> 
> For a while Zelda had hive looking flaky circles all over her loin (not itchy) that the vet thought were allergy related. I got a anti bacterial/fungal skin spray from the vet for it and I tried a bunch of different food/different ingredient. But eventually it just went away.
> 
> My biggest problem with food is how to help Zelda loose weight. I can only feed her a little as 1/8 cup of kibble for her to lose weight. I feel so bad giving her so little food. Granted partly is because she'd get food somewhere else (training treats, stolen food, human food dropped). She still has "blubber" under her skin right even she's down to less than 12lb.


You shouldn't feel bad. Everybody on the forum is a crazy Havi parent but you have to do what works for you, your dog, your lifestyle, and your pocketbook. Loki gets 1/2 can of wet food and 1/4 cup of kibble everyday - split between morning and night. (I tried dehydrated raw but he had loose stools for a month. I decided it wasn't worth it.) He also gets some veggies or fruit - whatever I have around - he likes them all. I make him work for most of his food. He gets all his wet food in a kong and the kibble in a Orbee tuff mazee ball or a puzzle ball. If I feed him in a bowl, he eats and 30 seconds and then looks at me for more. He seems more satisfied with the same amount when it takes him longer to eat.

I also leave a tiny frozen kong as a snack for the walker to give him. Sometimes it is just his wet food, or I might get creative - 
peanut butter, plain yogurt, honey, bananas

plain yogurt and strawberries or melon
unsweetened applesauce and cheese

It has to seem appetizing to me but he probably doesn't care if the flavors go together. LOL!

Believe me, if I had to make lunches or get kids to school, he wouldn't be so spoiled.

I also put vegetables in the Mazee or puzzle ball for him sometimes. I always keep frozen soup veggies - peas, carrots, green beans - in the freezer. I told him they were treats in the ball when he was tiny. He still gets excited. Adding some veggies might be good for weight loss - low calorie but bulky.


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## ShamaMama

Heather Glen said:


> We have always added a meat and vegetables to Scout and Truffles kibble. I have always fed them Orijen or Acana. A few weeks ago I bought NOW which is Canadian. Scout and Truffles love it. The kibble is very small and would be great for a puppy.


We also use NOW Fresh Grain Free for Small Breeds because it was recommended by our breeder. We started with the NOW Fresh puppy formula. Here are links to both. We don't buy from Amazon, however, we go to our local Chuck and Don's (apparently only in MN, WI, and CO).

Now Fresh Grain Free Small Breed Puppy Recipe - 6lb: Pet Supplies: Amazon.com

Now Fresh Grain Free for Small Breed Adult Dog Food Bag, 12-Pound: Dry Pet Food: Pet Supplies: Amazon.com

The first woman I met at Chuck and Don's told me that it's good that it's Canadian because Canada has higher dog food standards than the US.

I'm sure Shama would love to have meat and vegetables added to her kibble. She's also still waiting for her slice of dehydrated banana that she would get every night at bedtime if she lived at Ricky Ricardo's house!


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## Jojofergy

I feed my dogs kibble I think everyone should feed the healthiest you can afford when I had 3 dogs I was feeding taste of the wild now that I have 2 dogs I am transitioning to Fromm which I really liked when I gave it to Luna 4 years ago so am going back to it 
I also give wet dog food a few times a week usually zignature I like the ingredients and variety but we recently got honest kitchen which they loved so might get that as a topper in the future 
They also get homemade tuna treats for training and real chicken or steak for really yummy variety 
I use to give commercial treats like fruitables and zukes but sprocket has gotten more picky and stopped eat them he holds out for the tuna cookies so I stopped buying treats at the store 
Sprocket is the only dog I've ever had that loves fruit bananas and cantaloupe probably his favorites 


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## karidyne

I think the raw food I get through my local vendor (rawdogfoodandco.com) stretches the furthest. I did NOT want to feed raw meat at first (my own diet is 90% veg/10% fish), but I can't deny that it's the best food for my dog from the research I've done. It's a ground blend which means that you still have to purchase raw meaty bones for the dog's teeth. 20lb costs me $50 which is 80 days at 2.5% of 10lb. So almost $20/month. I've only had Migo for a couple days, but he has not had any problems at all transitioning. I "mix" by using what the breeder fed him as treats. This may sound silly but I have been spoon feeding him so that I don't have to touch the raw food, because he has to work for his meal (charging the clicker, learning his name, sit, etc).

I found my vendor through the yahoo group for raw dog food.


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## Marni

*Kosmo wanted me to mention...*

:cheer2:Bullys


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