# Our Lola is hearing impaired



## West End Girl (Feb 18, 2011)

We've had our Lola for over 4 months now....just finished obedience school which was not as helpful as we thought it would be.

To make a long story short, my husband realized over a month ago that Lola does not seem to respond to verbal commands, squeak toys, or clapping. When we call her by name, she doesn't come running, the vacuum could be on and you can go right up to her with the beater bar with NO reaction. If the doorbell rings, no response....the kids come home? She just lies there.

It also explains why she doesn't mind the blow-dryer when I bathe her. In addition, the outdoor potty training has also been a challenge and now I know why! She never heard us saying "Make pee!", but the second she sees her pad, BOOM! Her business is done. She is visual and uses her nose to smell her surroundings.....very sensory.

She's a very sound sleeper and unless she "sees" one of us, or smells us walk by, she will not respond. It's great when there are thunderstorms or when we're watching TV late at night.

Our breeder has been contacted and we are going to have the BAER testing done next week to confirm our suspicion. Bottom line, she does NOT respond to anything we say. We rely on hand-signals.

This is a HUGE learning curve. We really did not expect this and truth be known, we were devastated upon finding out. We realize deafness is not a detrimental disability, but if you all knew our history, you'd understand why we wanted a "normal" puppy. That being said, we are keeping her regardless as she's become a huge part of our family and the kids have bonded to her very much- especially our son.

I wanted to share as while I haven't been around here much it's because we are dealing with this issue. This is going to be a lot of work and for now, we're taking one day at a time.

Our breeder together with Nathan of Talemaker Havanese have been incredible supports and have provided us helpful links to dealing with this issue. We cannot thank them enough.


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## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

Oh dear what a shame poor little Lola,and poor you.


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

Well, Lola is sure a gorgeous little girl! I am sure it is very disappointing to realize that she can't hear; none of us wants to find out there is something wrong with our pups, that is for sure. But now that you have realized there is a problem and can have it further evaluated, hopefully you will be able to work with her accordingly so that she can get the most out of her training. It must have been very frustrating to be working with her as a dog that you thought could hear, if indeed she doesn't, and to see disappointing results. Lucky Lola to have found herself in a household who loves her, no matter what, and will see that she gets the proper attention for her problem.


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## whimsy (Apr 3, 2010)

oh that poor sweet little girl. I'm sure she is just happy as can be tho even without hearing very well. It is going to be an adjustment, but it sounds like you are more then willing to do so. She is a lucky pup! She is just adorable too by the way!!


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## Lizzie'sMom (Oct 13, 2010)

Lola is too cute. I am so sorry to hear about the hearing problem. I am sure that was devastating to realize. I looked back at your posts and read that she had a bad reaction to vaccines. Has the vet considered this a cause or did you notice it before that?


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

I'm so sorry to hear about Lola's disability - it must be devastating to you but sounds like you're up for dealing with it successfully. If she was born that way then she will not know she's even missing anything - like McGee with his lost paw. Good luck on your search for ways to make Lola's life all it can be! She is a gorgeous little girl!


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## LeighaMason (Dec 16, 2010)

Sugarbaby and I sat in on a Rally class at her training center and there was a deaf dog who was being trained for Rally, he worked off of hand signals and he was really good because he didn't hear any distractions. Remember we don't get the dog we want, we get the dog we need. (HUGS)


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## West End Girl (Feb 18, 2011)

Thanks everyone for your responses. 

It took us some time to realize she doesn't come to us or respond whatsoever when we call her name. When she's downstairs & we're upstairs, we can call her repeatedly with NO reaction. 

Lizzie's Mom.....very interesting observation about the vaccines. I will do some further research. I do know that the reaction did not occur until the had her shots with us NOT the breeder which I was told is sometimes common upon getting a certain vaccine for the 2nd time. 

That being said, the breeder did tell us now when she's been thinking back, that she noticed Lola slept more and more soundly than any of the other pups. Also, she would wander and sniff around and when she called "Pup, pup", there was no response, whereas her brothers would perk up and at least turn around towards the voice. 

I thought maybe she has a build-up of hair in her inner ear canal?? It's so teeny tiny though, that I can't see loads of it in there when I looked.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Lola is a beautiful pup nothing will ever change that, you and your family can only do what is possible for you. To find your perfect pup has a disability is devastating, all kinds of emotions come forward. Yes, deaf dogs can do well, some better then others and some people have more time and experience to work with them.

First maybe Lola is not deaf, second maybe it can be surgically corrected, hopefully you will know more after the testing. If she is truely deaf the best thing you can do as you start your journey is have a back up plan. It is not that I think you and your family can not handle this, I don't really know you, I do know this is a big deal. A back up plan is to find someone like a rescue that could take Lola "IF" things do not go well. The reason you need a back up plan and it is not easy to get a rescue that can and has dealt with this to agree to take them as they are difficult to place (a rescue that would do this would be worried about the adult dog she will be, not the cute puppy). If you have a back up plan this will give you breathing space, a sense that no matter what, Lola will be taken care of and a safty net can help us stretch our limits.

All the best for you, your family and Lola. Please remember that you have choices and sometimes it's hard, the right choice at the appropriate time can ensure success, if you are able to work with her and over come this or you need to give her another chance down the road both choices are a big deal and both are to give Lola the best life possible. Hugs.


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## West End Girl (Feb 18, 2011)

The Laughing Magpie said:


> Lola is a beautiful pup nothing will ever change that, you and your family can only do what is possible for you. To find your perfect pup has a disability is devastating, all kinds of emotions come forward. Yes, deaf dogs can do well, some better then others and some people have more time and experience to work with them.
> 
> First maybe Lola is not deaf, second maybe it can be surgically corrected, hopefully you will know more after the testing. If she is truely deaf the best thing you can do as you start your journey is have a back up plan. It is not that I think you and your family can not handle this, I don't really know you, I do know this is a big deal. A back up plan is to find someone like a rescue that could take Lola "IF" things do not go well. The reason you need a back up plan and it is not easy to get a rescue that can and has dealt with this to agree to take them as they are difficult to place (a rescue that would do this would be worried about the adult dog she will be, not the cute puppy). If you have a back up plan this will give you breathing space, a sense that no matter what, Lola will be taken care of and a safty net can help us stretch our limits.
> 
> All the best for you, your family and Lola. Please remember that you have choices and sometimes it's hard, the right choice at the appropriate time can ensure success, if you are able to work with her and over come this or you need to give her another chance down the road both choices are a big deal and both are to give Lola the best life possible. Hugs.


Thank you for this post. I can see that you appreciate this isn't easy and the road ahead will be unpredictable. Someone wrote a friend of mine that deaf dogs can be "fun and interesting" I found that to be an odd statement especially since the fun and interest is even more so for those not directly involved in Lola's care.

For me, the MOST frustrating right now is Lola not responding to us when called. So we physically have to get in her visual view before she will do anything. That includes her getting into mischief (which she does on occasion). A simple "NO" won't cut it. We physically have to stop what we're doing, walk up to her, and remover her from the situation. That's fine at home, but it also means she can never be let loose outside.

This is a huge learning curve, & we do have 2 people willing to take her if things don't work out, but I don't think that we will ever have to exercise that option. It's a comfort however, knowing that the offer has been made.

Thanks to everyone who responded here. I look forward to contributing my experiences & knowledge I learn along the way regarding hearing impaired pups. Who knows.....it may help someone else.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Lola is a beautiful girl. I'm sorry to hear that she is deaf. I read up on deaf dogs awhile back. There is a lot of information out there that will help you learn to interact with Lola and train her. I'm glad you are willing to give working with her a chance and that you have a backup in case it gets too overwhelming. Good planning on your part! If you haven't seen it, this web site is helpful and though I haven't read the book it references, it might be a good read for you. Best of luck to you and to pretty Lola.

http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/workingwithadeafdog.pdf


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## Narwyn (Jan 24, 2010)

While not ideal, deafness (and blindness) are generally less traumatic for dogs than it is for us - especially as she appears to be born that way and doesn't know she's lost anything! Dogs sniff their way around the world and everything else is a supporting act. 

Knowing for sure about her hearing challenge is a doorway: here is a pup you all ready love but had trouble communicating with her. Now you will be able to adjust and learn how to 'talk' to each other in a way that's actually meaningful. What a great thing for both of you!! 

Many of us will have deaf dogs, as most older dogs loose some or all of their hearing as they age. Clover, at 14, can sometimes hear very loud or very sharp noises, but that's about it. He isn't bothered by it, but it was a change for ME who was used to a dog who was 99.9999% reliable on voice commands. I had to adjust - walking across the room to get his attention, keeping him leashed as he can't hear me calling him or something coming at him - but he is a very happy old man. 

It will be some work and never quite as easy as a fully-hearing dog. But you will still have many enjoyable years with your Lola - there will just be more hand signals involved


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## andra (Aug 23, 2010)

I am sorry to hear about Lola, who is a lovely girl btw. I dont know a lot about deafness in dogs however I did take three years of sign language training and during that experience, I learned a lot about the deaf culture and the various tools that deaf people use to navigate the world (i.e. vibrating alarm clocks, blinking lights for door bells etc.). I bet there are some tools available to help you with training....like a collar that vibrates via remote control, not to hurt, but to indicate to turn towards you, flashing the overhead lights in the house on and off to indicate turn towards you, maybe small flash lights with a colored light (red for stop, for example) that you can turn off and on to indicate something or even flash cards that have different colors or shapes that you could use to indicate commands (like stop for the red light). This could be in addition to hand signals, although I would imagine that a dog could pick up hand signals and vibrations on the floor from foot stomping (if your dog's head was turned you can get your dogs attention by stomping your feet and give a treat when your dog turns towards you; your dog will feel the vibration on the floor through paws). It may be helpful at some point to talk with somebody who has more experience with the deaf culture and maybe they can give you some additional ideas. 

Good luck to you.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

West End Girl said:


> We've had our Lola for over 4 months now....just finished obedience school which was not as helpful as we thought it would be.
> 
> To make a long story short, my husband realized over a month ago that Lola does not seem to respond to verbal commands, squeak toys, or clapping. When we call her by name, she doesn't come running, the vacuum could be on and you can go right up to her with the beater bar with NO reaction. If the doorbell rings, no response....the kids come home? She just lies there.
> 
> ...


 I'm so sorry about Lola, I have a trainer who believes that emotions and feelings along with hand signals are the best way to train. Dogs don't need a human voice. Let us know how the BEAR testing goes.:hug:


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## Becky Chittenden (Feb 4, 2009)

I have a friend who is a Sheltie breeder who did a blue merle to blue merle breeding ( two with a dilute gene) knowing she might get a double dilute. Double dilutes do have health problems, but she was willing to keep any. In her litter, she had only one double dilute. Of the other pups, all were normal, one was winners at the national specialty and one reserve. She got the quality she wanted. The double dilute could not be shown because of color. Fortunately it was only deaf. He was probably the prettiest in the litter. She would pound her hands on the ground for him to come. He later learned hand signals, but, when he wasn't looking, she would pound on the ground and he'd come running and pay atttention. He lived a wonderful life and was a great pet.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

Such good advice has been offered here. I cannot add to it, just wanted to say, please keep us posted. She is indeed lovely and deserving of a full life. :grouphug:


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## cjsud (Oct 26, 2008)

My Daughter is a sign language interpreter and has taught Hobbes many signs that he knows better then the verbal commands. Cookie, Sit, Stay, Come things like that. She has many Deaf friends who have Deaf dogs. They use the same thing to get their dogs attention that they would use with each other. Flashing the lights if you need to call from far away or causing a vibration on the floor.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

cjsud said:


> My Daughter is a sign language interpreter and has taught Hobbes many signs that he knows better then the verbal commands. Cookie, Sit, Stay, Come things like that. She has many Deaf friends who have Deaf dogs. They use the same thing to get their dogs attention that they would use with each other. Flashing the lights if you need to call from far away or causing a vibration on the floor.


What a wonderful post. It is so nice to know you can find help here for every aspect of your dog's life and your sanity. What a wonder place HF is for us. Interesting training and of course I look forward to hearing more about it!! Do you have any videos?? Thanks for sharing!


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## misstray (Feb 6, 2011)

So sorry about Lola. While I know I wouldn't love my pup any less if he had a disability, I still wouldn't wish it on him or me. I can imagine it would be a lot more work. It's hard enough dealing with a pup with selective hearing. :biggrin1: 

I'm sure there are lots of work-arounds and alternative training methods and the forum is sure a great place for getting help, advice and support. She's a sweet dog and I'm sure that now you know she has a disability things will be easier than they have been. Sometimes just knowing about something can go a long way.

Anyhow, good luck to both you and Lola. She's a cutie.


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

First, she is a beauty. Interesting how she is already quite visual (going on her pee pad when she sees it), I will be thinking of you all and Lola as you all learn to adjust her training.


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## West End Girl (Feb 18, 2011)

An update:

It's been confirmed that Lola is indeed 100% deaf in BOTH ears. She is the 1st confirmed/known case in all of Canada.

What's even more upsetting and disappointing is the breeders involved (both ours AND the breeder who referred us to ours) have done nothing to compensate for this. It's a long story and I'm quite willing to share it here as it involves a top Canadian breeder who stated they would not be having anymore litters this year even though we told them we'd be willing to wait. Instead we were referred and rushed to make a decision that has now led to this situation. We were lied to and mislead and now, no one is taking responsibility. All we've received are guilt-filled opinions, told how our children will benefit, how fun and interesting it is to have a deaf animal, and a partial refund that quite frankly, is an insult. 

Very are hurt, disappointed, and very devastated. My children are kind, caring individuals who would care for any animal and have cared for terminally ill ones in the past. But I also feel that the deserve to experience what it's like to have a normal, healthy puppy who can hear and respond to them. Why is it that they deserve a pup with a congenital defect but not a normal, healthy one? (this is the opinion of our 2 breeders involved)


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

I do understand, I hear both your hurt and anger. I have said it before yes it is devastating. I know everyone here is trying to give you support and encouragement and while that is good, nice and wonderful, the problem is this is a tremendous responsibility and burden for the life of the dog. First there is training if you have not trained a dog before there is that and then the dog is deaf. Yes, I know dogs can be trained by hand signels (mine are) obedience dogs do this in the utility class but they learned other things first. So after successful training and it takes time, there is the special needs, like not being able to leave the dog along outside, open gates doors, people leaving doors, gates open all take on a new scarriness. Yes this will last the life of the dog. So I do understand how you feel. 

I have a dog with PRA and its been a long road and most people just see the happy little dog that is dealing so well. There is so much more to it, having emergency care is extreamely stressful for a deaf or blind dog. Also as they age new problems occur. Dogs that lose their hearing as age related or dogs that lose their hearing because of an accident (like hunting dogs that are too near the gun shot) are different as they have already been trained (hopefully) so it an adjustment, as they have learned to cue off their people. 

I can not speak for your breeders but if there is something you feel they could do to make it better, then you should voice this, take your time and think about it be realistic (hard when your hurt), they may not do anything, but it's ok to try. There are breeders who would not take your calls and blame you, so they do not sound bad, it seems they maybe as new to this type of situation as you. Hugs I know this is a very difficult time for you.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

She is darling, first of all, but she needs to be in the right home for her most productive and happy life. I am not saying you are not the right home, but it is possible you are not. It might be best for all concerned for you to take your time and find the right person who can make this little girl's life all that it can be. I don't know who this is, perhaps someone who is working with the deaf in some way who can make the most of this sad situation. I do know that with some careful planning and much help, things can work out for all concerned, but first and foremost for Lola. If you truly feel in your heart that she will be better off in another home, please follow your heart...don't keep her out of intimidation or feelings of guilt..that will serve no good. She deserves the best she can get and that may or may not be you. I would think your responsibility at this point is to try and place her where she will thrive.
I know this might sound a little harsh, but you do have some decisions to make. No amount of money or another puppy will take care of Lola's problem and that is what is most important right now..
You have my hugs and prayers. I am so happy you will discuss this and make your feelings known..you are in a wonderful group of people with untold resources and connections who can help you in this difficult decision and time....God Bless..


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

West End Girl said:


> An update:
> 
> It's been confirmed that Lola is indeed 100% deaf in BOTH ears. She is the 1st confirmed/known case in all of Canada.
> 
> ...


A lot of people think that being a "responsible breeder" simply means doing all the health testing. Evidently, not even all the health testing was done, because a BAER test would have shown that the pup was deaf even if the breeders had not noticed it in handling the pup every day. To me, being "responsible" simply means what it says. Any responsible breeder would take the puppy back with full refund if you don't want to keep her.

We had one dog turn up deaf some years later. I can't remember how old she was. The owner had health insurance on the dog, and there was some sort of treatment cost as well as diagnosis done. The health insurance company of course tried to get out of paying it because they said that deafness was congenital and congenital disorders were not covered. They must have been surprised to see a BAER test from when she was an 8 week old puppy that said, "No congenital deafness", and had to end up paying for the treatment.

If you don't want to keep her, the breeders should buy her back and be responsible. There will be plenty of homes that will take her even if it means no dollars to the breeder.


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

Tom, Flynn and Robbie - you all offer such balanced opinions and input. I must say I've found this thread extremely helpful in balancing the emotion of such a decision with what may be seen as the right thing to do. I can only imagine how had it must be for West End Girl and her family right now. The 'right' answer is not necessarily to keep Lola at all costs. I do wish you well with your decision and just want to acknowledge how supportive this forum and the people in it are.


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## JeanMarie (Mar 2, 2008)

First of all-Lola is absolutely adorable. I am so sorry that you have this challenge to deal with. I can only imagine your disappointment and how conflicted you must be. I have sent an e-mail to my friend Laurasch who is on this forum. She might be on vacation but I know she will get to you as soon as she can. Her darling Hav, Pepper was found to be deaf after they had him about as long as you have had Lola. I know she can offer insights and advice that will help you with your decision.

I know you will do what is right for all concerned. ((hugs)) Jean


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

JeanMarie said:


> First of all-Lola is absolutely adorable. I am so sorry that you have this challenge to deal with. I can only imagine your disappointment and how conflicted you must be. I have sent an e-mail to my friend Laurasch who is on this forum. She might be on vacation but I know she will get to you as soon as she can. Her darling Hav, Pepper was found to be deaf after they had him about as long as you have had Lola. I know she can offer insights and advice that will help you with your decision.
> 
> I know you will do what is right for all concerned. ((hugs)) Jean


This is what I mean by being in the right place for help with whatever decision you make about Lola...it is beginning with Jean's friend...Good luck! What a wonderful group of people!


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## West End Girl (Feb 18, 2011)

Thanks to everyone. 

I have to be careful about what I post here as one of the breeders who's well known in Canada may be reading & has been "over involved" in our case. This breeder "referred" us to ours as they are friends. We think that this breeder is highly suspicious and we are taking legal action to investigate further. ( I will provide the name of this breeder and ALL others involved in our case however, if anyone asks. Simply PM me ) 

Now, Lola at present is going NOWHERE. Our 2 children love this animal who was originally adopted for them. We paid $1500 for a pure-bred, HEALTHY puppy and took her despite the fact that she had a hernia. With this congenital deafness, all we are asking is that the breeder provide us with a full refund so that we can continue to provide her with the kind of home she deserves including any additional equipment and training. 

I have asked several of my breeder friends (both dog and other), Vets, close friends, dog trainers and each one has of course empathized with our situation, but the 1st thing they ask is, "has the breeder issued you a full refund"? 

According to our contract (which is confusing and not clearly written) we are only entitled to a full refund once a congenital defect has been confirmed whereby, the dog is then surrendered to the Vet. 

Anyone with any sort of decency and human spirit would NOT take a dog away from 2 small children from a family who is devoted and dedicated to providing a sound, loving, caring forever home for this puppy. At this point all we want is our $1500 plus the cost of the BAER test ($100). We should technically ask for the obedience class payment as well due to the fact that having a congenital defect, those classes didn't apply to our pup as stated in our contract.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

I think most of the agreements say the dog will be surrendered prior to or upon refunds. I can understand why...I am not saying this is right, just that it is the way the contracts are written. If one part of the contract applies, it all applies..and it is usually up to the good will of the breeder...you have to just hope all will do the best for the puppy.


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## Laurasch (Jul 1, 2008)

Hi, you have my heartfelt sympathies. I have been going through something very similar to what's happening with you and Lola. I too have a little deaf Hav, found out late, had BAER testing, the breeder did nothing, went through lots of training and tools... 

I would like to help you any way I can - 

I could share with you what life is like to help you make a decision about keeping her. 

I've taught our guy lots of visual signals and tried many tools. I'd be happy to offer advice or answer questions about what seems to work well.

I could send you things to try like a small dog vibration collar and high frequency tone producer, both used to get their attention. 

There are some theories about what happens for deaf dogs regarding aggression, if you've been reading on line about canine deafness you may know what I'm referring to. It is very different than having a hearing dog go deaf with age. Factors like her adult temperament and your children's age will be important in your decision.

Pepper is 4 now and has come so far that we can do competition level Agility together and he's a beloved part of our family. We have a great time and manage his 'issues' carefully. Oddly enough he's also highly allergic to many things and that is actually more difficult to deal now with than the deafness which we're totally used to accommodating.

Wishing you the very best in getting through this,


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## West End Girl (Feb 18, 2011)

Laurasch said:


> Hi, you have my heartfelt sympathies. I have been going through something very similar to what's happening with you and Lola. I too have a little deaf Hav, found out late, had BAER testing, the breeder did nothing, went through lots of training and tools...
> 
> I would like to help you any way I can -
> 
> ...


You are very kind. I would love to take you up on your offer & I will connect with you via PM.

Thank you so very much :hug:

I think at the end of the day, this breeder really doesn't want Lola back, but they don't want to give the $$$ back either. The referring breeder who is part of a fancy organization and in charge of "rescues" of all things, and has a website that they've obviously spent a lot of time on, but told me they can't take her. This "referring" breeder who says they have nothing to do with anything, showed up for Lola's hearing test "just to be nice and show support" I don't buy it. In fact, it raises extreme suspicion that this breeder (referring) is way more involved than they claim.

At the end of the day, I don't trust either of them & just want my $$$ back so that I can invest the money towards Lola's care.


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## Ellie NY (Aug 27, 2010)

My heart goes out to Lola and your family. I wish you the very best of luck with your decision. I've found the lovely folks on this forum to be incredibly supportive and non-judgmental. I hope you get the information and advice you need to make the decision that's right for you and your family. All the best!


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Laura it is so wondrful that you responded. I have several friends that have shelties and collies that are deaf, they too do agility but most have been in the dog world for a good while and have other well adjusted dogs to help things along. Dealing with any dog that has special needs is hard, not impossible and not for everyone.

West End Girl, We are here to support you what ever you decide and whatever the future brings. No judgements only concern and support.


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## West End Girl (Feb 18, 2011)

Ellie NY said:


> My heart goes out to Lola and your family. I wish you the very best of luck with your decision. I've found the lovely folks on this forum to be incredibly supportive and non-judgmental. I hope you get the information and advice you need to make the decision that's right for you and your family. All the best!


This means a great deal to me. Thank you


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

I know you may be doing some PMing...but I for one would love to know of your trials and tribulations and successes with Pepper...is there anyway you can start a new thread, or continue this one? I think lots of us are interested in what you have learned in your journey and what the outcome will be for Lola....
JMHO...????


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

West End Girl said:


> You are very kind. I would love to take you up on your offer & I will connect with you via PM.
> 
> Thank you so very much :hug:
> 
> ...


Sorry I meant to quote the message in my request that you two do stay on the forum, either in this thread or another new thread and share the advice/successes you have and will encounter....thanks Flynn...P.S. I am sure I am not the only one interested!


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

No, Flynn, you are not the only one interested. I, also, would really be interested and am watching.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Me too. And it could be a resource in the future for other people with def dogs.


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## jessegirl (May 13, 2011)

So sorry to hear that. It sounds like you have a touch decision. I'm sorry you're in such a place.


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## West End Girl (Feb 18, 2011)

I think it's a fabulous idea to start a new thread regarding this. Laura, I've been swamped but will PM you today so that we can connect.

I will devote ANY TIME I have to HELP ANYONE with any issues they may potentially have with hearing or training. 

I'm unfortunately one of those people who gives without expectations. Call me crazy, but I feel that the only reason I'm not breeding is I'd be in debt, as my heart would go out to help as opposed to obsess about the $$$

I suppose the lesson in all of this is to be very careful about the breeder you choose. I cannot stress that enough. Even with all of my past experience & knowledge regarding this, I got suckered in by a glossy, fancy website filled with photos, daily blogs, and info. Often times the BEST breeders out there have very simple if not primitive websites because they devote all their time to their DOGS.....NOT the PC

Choose a breeder that TESTS their pups or if not, encourages YOU to do so within the 1st week of the pups arrival. 

Word of mouth is the best. Our friend who has 2 Coton de Tulear dogs recommended HER breeder who stands behind her dogs. When one of the pups got sick and had to be put down (a rare disorder), not only did she reimburse her for the entire Vet costs and expenses, she also gave her the $$$ back for the puppy. Our friend then got to choose another pup for FREE AND purchased another one from her as well. But THIS is an example of an ethical breeder who wants to HELP and does the right thing. I wouldn't hesitate to deal with this breeder in a heartbeat.


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## Laurasch (Jul 1, 2008)

You're right, we did go to PMs, but I'm willing to post on a thread as well. Just not sure what would be useful. Anyone have questions? Otherwise, I'll throw out a couple thoughts and see what happens.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

Laurasch said:


> You're right, we did go to PMs, but I'm willing to post on a thread as well. Just not sure what would be useful. Anyone have questions? Otherwise, I'll throw out a couple thoughts and see what happens.


I think a thread with information regarding your help and what you have learned from the moment you discovered there might be a hearing problem with your dog...what symptoms, etc.....on through today. Any experience and help would be great and should remain on the site for help to others..thanks so much for doing this. FLynn


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Pam says to get someone to teach you clicker training, and then substitute a squeeze light for the clicker. Clicker training is so easy once you understand the timing. Learn what "loading the clicker" means, and "load" the squeeze light. Once the clicker is loaded, you have the dog's complete attention, and they will start to offer behaviors. Once they learn the first one or two behaviors, more come easier and easier.

I use a red squeeze light in the bedroom to see which puppy needs assistance when we have a whole litter in crates. We've looked at different ones, and some are much harder to operate than others. Some are also too bright for this use. Sorry, I don't know where to tell you to look for the good ones. I think I found the ones we like in some checkout line somewhere.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

Tom King said:


> Pam says to get someone to teach you clicker training, and then substitute a squeeze light for the clicker. Clicker training is so easy once you understand the timing. Learn what "loading the clicker" means, and "load" the squeeze light. Once the clicker is loaded, you have the dog's complete attention, and they will start to offer behaviors. Once they learn the first one or two behaviors, more come easier and easier.
> 
> I use a red squeeze light in the bedroom to see which puppy needs assistance when we have a whole litter in crates. We've looked at different ones, and some are much harder to operate than others. Some are also too bright for this use. Sorry, I don't know where to tell you to look for the good ones. I think I found the ones we like in some checkout line somewhere.


What a great idea. If you happen to remember the name or place of the good ones in the checkout line somewhere, let us know...


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## West End Girl (Feb 18, 2011)

Thanks Tom. Fabulous idea. 

Laura, you're one in a million. 

We're being completely ignored by our breeder and the stud's breeders. Very, very disappointing, especially since we don't know whether they're continuing to breed these dogs. The fact that the stud's breeder is purposely ignoring us, we have no reason to believe otherwise. 

Our Vet did indeed confirm that the deafness IS congenital, NOT merely our opinion as our breeder stated. But our breeder is unfortunately being negatively influenced by the "referring" breeder who is no doubt her close friend, so the emails have taken a negative tone and are very bizarre. 

Our Vet also thought it was very suspicious and "odd" that the referring breeder showed up at the BAER test. No one we've told this story to believes this breeder showed up to merely lend support. This breeder has a stake in this and is somehow involved.


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## andra (Aug 23, 2010)

A co-worker of mine is taking intensive sign language training and I spoke to her on Thursday about your situation. She was going to be attending a regional meeting next week and I asked to to inquire about tools or resources to help with training and living with a deaf dog and she was happy to do this. We are not far from Galludette (sp?) University which is the biggest college for the deaf so hopefully there are some resources out there that I can pass along 

My heart just aches for how you are being treated by the breeders. Personally, I would aggressively go after them but that is just me; I am not recommending that for you and I realize that I may be offending others here. But really, if they are so well regarded in the Havanese community, then their reputation must be important to them. Other people who are not in the know about their true character would be shocked to hear how they are treating you. People of high character, which these breeders clearly are not, sometimes have to make decisions for the right reasons, even if it means taking a financial loss. Good reputations have to be earned; it is shocking and shameful that these two breeders are up to unethical antics and refuse to step up and do the right thing. SHAME ON THEM!!!

And frankly, the clauses in contracts that say 'return the dog' for the refund do not take into account the mutual bonding that goes on between humans and furbabies and is only in contracts for the breeders financial interests.

SHAME ON THEM!!!!

I apologize for being so angry and upset. But something similar happened to me with the shelter that I adopted my first dog from....unethical people in charge, lying about medical conditions which left me adopting a dog that was terminally ill and died 8 days after bringing her home. This should not have happened to me especially since this was my first dog. And this agency has a so called good reputation.....HA!


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## West End Girl (Feb 18, 2011)

andra said:


> A co-worker of mine is taking intensive sign language training and I spoke to her on Thursday about your situation. She was going to be attending a regional meeting next week and I asked to to inquire about tools or resources to help with training and living with a deaf dog and she was happy to do this. We are not far from Galludette (sp?) University which is the biggest college for the deaf so hopefully there are some resources out there that I can pass along
> 
> My heart just aches for how you are being treated by the breeders. Personally, I would aggressively go after them but that is just me; I am not recommending that for you and I realize that I may be offending others here. But really, if they are so well regarded in the Havanese community, then their reputation must be important to them. Other people who are not in the know about their true character would be shocked to hear how they are treating you. People of high character, which these breeders clearly are not, sometimes have to make decisions for the right reasons, even if it means taking a financial loss. Good reputations have to be earned; it is shocking and shameful that these two breeders are up to unethical antics and refuse to step up and do the right thing. SHAME ON THEM!!!
> 
> ...


Andra, your post sums up exactly how I feel.

I am SO disappointed in my breeder that I cannot tell you. This is also so out of character from how she originally treated us and also reacted when she heard about the news that Lola may be deaf. This is her 1st litter, but her partner is a seasoned breeder who is very well known in the Havanese community and throughout Canada.

The referring breeder has also influenced our breeder in a negative way.

Like I said before, I'm quite suspicious of ALL involved as I feel they are still continuing to breed these dogs, or the dog(s) in question are breeding with the "referring" breeders dogs which is why HE showed up at our hearing test. Very suspicious indeed.

I will be going after ALL of them very aggressively and reporting them all to the appropriate organizations.

I'm just extremely disappointed that my breeder is acting in this manner. I met her entire family & they seemed like such decent, kind, wonderful people- her husband and daughter especially. They really cared about which homes their pups went to....and this being her 1st litter, it was very special.

But look at what's happened? It's like Dr Jekyll & Mr Hyde. But in times of a crisis, that's when you see people's TRUE colours emerge.

Andra, I really like and respect your way of thinking. Thank You


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## andra (Aug 23, 2010)

You are welcome 

There is an interesting philosophy that sums up what has happened in your situation and it is the following:

What do you get when you squeeze an orange? Most people will say "orange juice" but it goes beyond that. When you squeeze an orange, what is on the inside comes out. Just like in people--true character, or lack thereof, will come out when put under pressure. So, these people may have been nice when all was assumed ok but the minute the situation got difficult (squeezed, pressure) their true character came out from within. And basically, they are unethical cowards who refuse to step up and do the right thing. SHAME ON THEM!!!!

I say it again: SHAME ON THEM!!!

Personally, I would go after them aggressively, including naming names in the process and creating an internet record. They have not truly earned their good reputations and the smoke and mirrors game they are playing is about to end.

I would consult with a few child psychologists and get estimates about how much it would cost to provide counseling for your children if their puppy was yanked from them. Loss and abandonment in such a manner has lasting scars on children and you need to obtain a financial accounting of this. And if you have difficulty obtaining this information, I can connect you to some resources as I am in health care and have easy access to this.

SHAME ON THEM!!!!


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## JeanMarie (Mar 2, 2008)

Please don't take this the wrong way...
I truly see this as a "consumer" vs "retailer" issue on the very basic principal that you purchased a product from a company that guaranteed the quality of said product. The product turned out to have a serious flaw. Because we are talking about a sweet little creature that tugs at our emotions, they figure they can play the "heart card" and you'll let them get away with this. I am so glad you are going after them. This has nothing to do with Lola and her value as a wonderful addition to this world. It's about promises and expectations...and MONEY. They are very obviously all about the money. They need to be hit in the face with the reality of consequences. Please allow us to know how this plays out. I agree 100%- Shame on them!


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## Narwyn (Jan 24, 2010)

JeanMarie said:


> Please don't take this the wrong way...
> I truly see this as a "consumer" vs "retailer" issue on the very basic principal that you purchased a product from a company that guaranteed the quality of said product. The product turned out to have a serious flaw.


To this end, the "consumer" signed a contract. They felt was confusing, unclear, and in the end they do not agree with it, but it is still a contract signed by the "consumer" that included what would happen in case of said serious flaw.

Of course there are emotions and living creatures involved, but at the same time, if the breeder laid out what they would do in this instance, and they are abiding by that... the fact that you felt rushed doesn't change the fact you ultimately made that choice to move forward with the puppy.

I am not placing blame on you nor am I taking any away from the breeder. I simply think it is worth highlighting this for others: walk away rather than sign something you're not sure of or don't agree with. If you feel too rushed to make an educated decision, walk. It is hard but worthwhile in situations like this.

Unfortunately, hindsight is 20/20, and I do hope everything works out in the end in a way best for Lola.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

I have to agree with Narwyn here. But my heart is with Jean. I do know that contracts are important and would not pay for a puppy until I AGREED with the contract. Most people do not read contracts and most people do not realize contracts can be changed, at least the buyer has the option of ASKING for the contract to be changed. I think these posts might bring awareness to the fact that if the contract is binding in one way (you get the dog) it is binding in ALL ways. 

As for instance, when I was going in for surgery, my doctor gave me a "contract" to sign which permitted photographs and permitted students to watch my surgery. I marked through it and denied the permission...YES, the doctor's office did not like it, they tried to explain it to me, I still refused, they were not happy..but they did not refuse my requests or my "amended" contract.

I am trying to say, most people don't agree with everything in a contract, but they sign it anyway...that is a problem. Yes, it is all about money, and there will be more money spent if you don't abide by the contract. Yes, the clauses are beneficial to the breeder, they wrote the contract...it is up to you, the consumer/buyer to talk about changing what you don't agree with before you purchase.

Sometimes having a contract is a good thing. It spells all out in black and white. My last purchase was an expensive one and there was NO contract, I get the full registration, full ownership, etc. But if something happened, I have no recourse, except "good will". In my situation I purchased from a friend outside the USA, and am content, if something happened I might become concerned, so contracts are valuable, but on each end it costs to enforce them. So what I have is "good will".

Good Will is important to any breeder, but would you want to buy a puppy with only good will protection? Or would you prefer a contract?. JMHO


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

I'm so sorry Lola's Bear test came out positive
I sometimes to a fault believe that most people are good. I feel for both you and the breeder. I don't agree with her treating you bad and she does need to step up and communicate with you. Especially when after she was talked to she remembered that Lola was different from her litter mates.
This was their first litter she obviously is a unexperienced breeder. I hope she is just taking some time to come to reality that her breeding program with that bitch is over. We have a similar contract with Maddie We had only a year for health issues a small refund could be applied or return the puppy. She has a problem that we could have gotten the $500. to help with medical costs or we could have returned her and gotten another puppy. The problem( besides loving Maddie ) with returning her was that I would never buy a puppy from her breeder again. A year passed way to fast and we never approached them for the refund.
This breeder has no idea how bad her reputation is going to be if she has a web page by just naming her on our forum it will pop up along with her site. She really needs to do the right thing even if she doesn't have the money to refund you she needs to communicate to you and make fair arrangements.
Again I am sorry little Lola and your family have to be put in this situation. All the money in the world will not bring back her hearing she was born that way. She is probably a very happy puppy I'm glad for you their a folks here on our Forum that are raising deaf Havanese so you have a support system for different training techniques.:grouphug:


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## andra (Aug 23, 2010)

Unfortunately contracts do not cover shoddy treatment and possible manipulative manuvers that the original poster is complaining about--the issue is not just the contract. It is about this so called breeder with a supposed good reputation who is not acting in such a manner to continue to earn such a reputation. 

And yes, contracts can be amended; I have done this many times in many circumstances. However, one expects a certain level of treatment based on reputation. That is why 5 star restaurants and hotels deliver and are held to a certain standard or they lose their ratings....it is not just about the check in paperwork (contract) at the hotel or menu (contract) at the restaurant....a person goes into a 5 star experience/relationship expecting a certain standard. And the original posted did not get that, no matter what the contract stated.


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## West End Girl (Feb 18, 2011)

Narwyn said:


> To this end, the "consumer" signed a contract. They felt was confusing, unclear, and in the end they do not agree with it, but it is still a contract signed by the "consumer" that included what would happen in case of said serious flaw.
> 
> Of course there are emotions and living creatures involved, but at the same time, if the breeder laid out what they would do in this instance, and they are abiding by that... the fact that you felt rushed doesn't change the fact you ultimately made that choice to move forward with the puppy.
> 
> ...


YES, we signed a contract, but we also paid for a puppy (pure bred) to be healthy and free of any congenital defects which Lola is NOT

This has now become a legal matter as ALL of the 3 breeders involved (Breeders of the stud and Mom- of which ONE is USA based), have ignored us and chosen NOT to respond to emails or phone calls.

Having 2 small children, no we do NOT think it's humane to take a pet that they've bonded with for the past 5 months & get a replacement or a refund if WE ARE WILLING to provide a home for this animal.

If the breeder was "on the ball", she should have BAER tested the puppies PRIOR to selling them or have told us to get the hearing tested within the first week of picking Lola up.

But as I've stated, this is now a serious legal matter which we are prepared to go to court for.


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

West End Girl said:


> Thanks everyone for your responses.
> 
> It took us some time to realize she doesn't come to us or respond whatsoever when we call her name. When she's downstairs & we're upstairs, we can call her repeatedly with NO reaction.
> 
> ...


I'm surprised after all those "little" things she noticed that she would have wondered about her hearing and had it checked out before selling her. I hate that you are having to go through all this. Lola is a precious and beautiful little girl and I know you all love her so much.


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## West End Girl (Feb 18, 2011)

Kathie said:


> I'm surprised after all those "little" things she noticed that she would have wondered about her hearing and had it checked out before selling her. I hate that you are having to go through all this. Lola is a precious and beautiful little girl and I know you all love her so much.


Exactly. This breeder whose name is "*TRACY SMITH*" of Sudbury Ontario & bred together with "*PAULA MARTEL*" of Pocopayasos Kennels who is actually the PRESIDENT of the Havanese Fanciers Club, whose stud is Lola's father and owned with *CANDY GAUDRY* of QBINS Kennels in the USA, NOTICED that Lola wasn't responding when she called, 'Pup, Pup' But rather than encourage us to get her hearing tested within the 1st week of ownership, we discovered this info AFTER telling her we suspected Lola was hearing impaired together with a bunch of other things such as, Lola being more independent, or sleeping very soundly compared to her 4 brothers.

We've contacted OUR breeder Tracy and the other 2 breeders involved via email and ALL have chosen to ignore us.

For all we know, these dogs are still being bred. I do know for a fact, that the one breeder who REFERRED us to Tracy in the 1st place, and is the one who owns a fancy/schmancy website & has daily blogs, videos, an online Havanese magazine etc.....and who showed up at our Hearing test (for what purpose, I haven't a clue), ALSO uses Paula's STUDS to breed with his dogs/bitches. So who knows if these dogs are still being bred and whether they have any health issues. None of the breeders have chosen to respond to us.

*I personally would like to hear from ANYONE including, people who know other people who have animals, that have actually GIVEN BACK their precious pets once learning they have an issue. Anyone?*


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## Laurasch (Jul 1, 2008)

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> What a great idea. If you happen to remember the name or place of the good ones in the checkout line somewhere, let us know...


Sorry for the delayed response on a previous post, don't mean to switch topics, hope it's okay to insert this but then the discussion can continue to flow as before -

The red squeeze light is an interesting idea. Here are a couple other free and always available options -

I've use clicker training a lot and immediately started when I got Pepper, before I realized he was deaf. I used a clicker but also conditioned a marker word for when the clicker wasn't handy. I picked "YES!" Ironically this seemed to be working. Later, when his smart reactions didn't seem to make sense since he couldn't hear me, I watched myself in the mirror and realized I always do it a certain way, and that Pepper was reading my facial expressions - he learned "Sit" "Down" and a couple other "verbal" commands, but also my very visual "YES!"

I decided to add a hand signal as well (as he is often watching my hands for his next cue) and picked a thumbs up sign. I use it very precisely, just as with a clicker - to specifically mark a behavior, and always follow it with a treat reward. It is very clear that he knows exactly what it means and watches intently for his treat  .


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## StarrLhasa (Jun 6, 2010)

*www.deafdogs.org*

Hi, West End Girl:

I have read all the posts in your thread and feel bad for what you have had to deal with. Until now though, I did not have any suggestions.

I was just Googling dog trick hand signals, and I found a website that may be helpful. You have probably already found it, but I thought I should post it anyway for you and other owners of deaf dogs.

Deaf Dog Education Action Fund http://www.deafdogs.org/

Please keep us updated as to how you and Lola are doing.


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## Laurasch (Jul 1, 2008)

That's a good site. I used it extensively about 3 1/2 yrs ago when I got Pepper. one of the ideas I got from it was to look for a vibrating collar. Finally found one small enough -thank goodness for technology miniaturization, they used to be HUGE. I trained him to look for me when he felt it go on. It worked fine but as he matured, he became unwilling to ever be out of my sight so it became unnecessary. From what I read on the forum about no one ever being lonely in the bathroom, I think it might be a Havie trait and not just the deafness.


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## StarrLhasa (Jun 6, 2010)

Laurasch said:


> From what I read on the forum about no one ever being lonely in the bathroom, I think it might be a Havie trait and not just the deafness.


Laura, I think you may be right! :biggrin1:


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## JeanMarie (Mar 2, 2008)

I have often said: Being a Hav owner means "never having to pee alone"! 
:biggrin1:


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