# Small Dog Syndrone



## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

Pretty good article; I think Dexter qualifies for some of these traits.

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/articles/smalltoydogs.htm


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## marb42 (Oct 19, 2008)

Linda, that was a really interesting article and I can see a great debate over nature verses nurture ensuing ! I agree with a lot of it and how we respond to small dogs, but I still feel like small dogs may have some genetic predispositions to certain traits. I know what my dog was like when he arrived, and he was very different from any other puppy from a large breed and very different from the beagle I had as a child. I agree that jumping can be a display of dominance, but I don't feel like Marble's being dominant when he wags his tail like crazy and jumps up over and over trying to reach our face to lick it when we come home. I have been trying to correct his growling and barking at people and noises since he was small. It is something I have worked hard at, and I still battle with it all the time. I don't see the Labs or Sheltie on my street every growl or bark. I definitely see how we treat small dogs different, though, and how that changes their behavior. We let them get away with a lot more, and I know that I give him a lot more affection than I would a big dog because he's so soft and little. 
Gina


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

great article Linda. My dogs are not yappy but they do try to own us (and we let them.) I certainly recognized us as the human of small dogs in that article.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

I agree whole heartedly with this article. From the dog not eating certain foods to not coming when called to playing catch-me-if-you can. Its funny for a while; but the human has to be the pack leader and the dog has to know it. We had been having trouble with Rosie about begging for food from our plates--jumping and whining and being a pest. I decided that enough was enough and firmly did the two finger push back thing and looking sternly at her. We don't have that problem any more. Now we have to work on the jumping on company thing. A lot of people don't like dogs and their nails can scratch or tear stockings. I always said that we didn't know how we spoiled our children until company came and it works the same with dogs. They do need boundaries and limitations along with love.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

The article is right about the fact that we tend to let small dogs away with these things , but it is wrong about why they do them. The dominance theory that they depict is totally wrong and has been debunked by most respected experts.


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Dave~ I just finished reading Temple Grandin's book, Animals Make Us Human (mostly just the "dog" chapters. However, the cat and cow chapters I skimmed had some interesting stuff, too ) Excellent read. It was very interesting to read her comparison of the dominance theory and how wolves _actually_ live. I learned they do not live in packs, they do not have an alpha, they do not vie for dominance, etc. Wonder where this thinking of "alpha and pack leader" came from in the first place???


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Leslie said:


> Dave~ I just finished reading Temple Grandin's book, Animals Make Us Human (mostly just the "dog" chapters. However, the cat and cow chapters I skimmed had some interesting stuff, too ) Excellent read. It was very interesting to read her comparison of the dominance theory and how wolves _actually_ live. I learned they do not live in packs, they do not have an alpha, they do not vie for dominance, etc. Wonder where this thinking of "alpha and pack leader" came from in the first place???


You're right Leslie ,Temple knows her stuff. Excellent book. These old theories came basically from misinterpretation. Even Dave Meche the world's leading authority on wolves says that his early writings were not correct and were misinterpreted. I will look up an article or two for you that explains how all this happened.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Leslie, here are two articles that I've read. http://www.nonlineardogs.com/index.html http://dogpublic.com/articles/article.aspx?t=training411&sid=14&pid=1640


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

actually Leslie here is my favorite article about dominance. http://www.urbandawgs.com/divided_profession.html


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## j.j.'s mom (Aug 16, 2009)

thank you, dave:cheer2:
my trainer is from the school of positive reinforcement ala ian dunbar.
jj loves his training sessions more than playing with toys...
i have had him 3 months and he impresses people..
still have lots to learn, though.
and it's FUN!!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

j.j.'s mom said:


> thank you, dave:cheer2:
> my trainer is from the school of positive reinforcement ala ian dunbar.
> jj loves his training sessions more than playing with toys...
> i have had him 3 months and he impresses people..
> ...


high JJ's mom . Luckily for you ,you are in an area ,where some of the best dog trainers in the world are located ,ie. Ian Dunbar , and Jean Donaldson.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Here is the article that I initially wanted to post.but couldn't find. http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/dominance.htm


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Thanks for the articles, Dave. Very interesting, indeed. It appears as though there's lots to be learned by many who own/train dogs. I just hope the tide turns quickly for the sake of the dogs.


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## Annie Clark (Nov 6, 2008)

Just to chime in-isn't Temple Grandin interesting?

I have started some of the "hand targeting" clicker training from Karen Pryor's book. Nala is defienetly intrigued by the sound of the click. Now I need to research the next steps! And did you see Cesear in the New York Times??? Ian Dunbar is mentioned in passing....

Annie


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Since when do wolves not live in packs??? I havent heard that one before. Are we teaching middle school science wrong down here?


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

ama0722 said:


> Since when do wolves not live in packs??? I havent heard that one before. Are we teaching middle school science wrong down here?


It appears so, Amanda. I think you need to come back to LA where we teach it right! 

_"Dr. Mech's most important finding for people thinking about wolves and dogs: In the wild, wolves don't live in wolf packs, and they don't have an alpha male who fights the other wolves to maintain his dominance. Our whole image of wolf packs and alphas is completely wrong. Instead, wolves live the way people do: in families made up of a mom, a dad, and their children."_ (Grandin, Animals Make Us Human, p.26)


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

ama0722 said:


> Since when do wolves not live in packs??? I havent heard that one before. Are we teaching middle school science wrong down here?


Amanda, don't they stay away from evolution too down there?

I may have to pick up this book Leslie. I think people are attracted to the alpha/pack thing because it is easier...and because Cesar marketed it! It really appeals to the men in families (I know...DH love's saying Chuh,) But if you watch Cesar he is really in-tune with the animals he works with...it is just hard to teach that with a leash flick and a Chuhhh.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

here is an article explaining this. ...
Dr. David Mech of the University of Minnesota, who has studied wolves in their natural habitat, claims that much of what is widely believed about wolf packs is mistaken. From observations of wolf packs on Elsemere Island over more than a decade,[1] he claims that natural wolf packs are not at all similar to those formed in captivity by unrelated wolves. He attributes many of the misconceptions about wolf packs to generalizations from these unnatural packs in captivity, and equates this to erroneous inferences we might draw from generalizing human behavior from studying refugee camps.

Dr. Mech argues that the natural wolf pack is typically a family, with a breeding pair of adult wolves and their offspring. In such cases, the terms "alpha" and "dominant" are less appropriate than "parent." Of course, the parent wolves are both "alpha" and "dominant" (by definition), but he argues that these terms are misleading because they imply that a pack of wolves typically include multiple families and that the members assume a place in a linear hierarchy. A wolf pack should not be seen as a tribe of individuals who have an established place in a hierarchy until a younger dog usurps the role. Rather, a wolf pack should be seen as a family unit, with young wolves of age dispersing into new territories of their own, to find other wolves and begin their own family units.

Mech also states that dominance is rare in wild wolves, and does not arise from sexual competition. Because young wolves usually disperse before age two, and almost always before age 3, there is little sexual tension within a pack. Instead of "dominance" and "submission", he uses the terms "assertiveness" and "passiveness" to reflect the role of the wolf in the pack. Dominant breeding pairs led the pack most of the time (71%), and initiated most new behaviors (70%). Leadership behavior in subordinate pack members tended to be followed by dispersion


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

Watching the large dogs interact while I am in the small dog park with Dexter is very interesting. 

I see the dogs play "King of the Mountain," which is a small dirt hill. One dog is usually the king and he chases other dogs off the mountain. Everyone is playful until there is an agressive dog who comes in the park and wants to play the game. And....this dog, is a little too aggressive and he wants to be the king, then the situation can get ugly between 2-4 dogs. 

I see dominant issues in the park all the time. Some dogs respect the other dog as being dominant and they play well together and others try their best to be dominant and sometimes, it has to be worked out.

I see mounting of other dogs (trying to dominant another dog) frequently in the park.

A dog park is a wonderful place to learn all the expressions and language dogs express to each other.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

mounting is basically a sexual thing. Dogs will take turns mounting each other. It is was is called a fixed action pattern. But to understand the linear aspect within dogs here is a great article. http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/macho-myth


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Hmmm.... so when I watch the wolves on NG are they just all together for a playdate?  A lot of other researchers believe wolves do live in packs with social hierarchies. Is this researcher just trying to say their pack is interrelated that makes sense and most researchers agree with that or are they trying to say there are only one pair of mating partners per pack unless they have pups?

While I am all for positive training, I really believe dogs are social animals and do have hierarchies through body language. In my own household, I have never had to interfere and I just let them work it out. It is surprising who is most dominant in nature isn't the alpha dog in my house.

As to mounting only being sexual... I have one horny spayed Maltese then!!! But she is pretty picky on who she humps 

PS Missy- Don't say the E word down here!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

ama0722 said:


> Hmmm.... so when I watch the wolves on NG are they just all together for a playdate?  A lot of other researchers believe wolves do live in packs with social hierarchies. Is this researcher just trying to say their pack is interrelated that makes sense and most researchers agree with that or are they trying to say there are only one pair of mating partners per pack unless they have pups?
> 
> While I am all for positive training, I really believe dogs are social animals and do have hierarchies through body language. In my own household, I have never had to interfere and I just let them work it out. It is surprising who is most dominant in nature isn't the alpha dog in my house.
> 
> ...


Hi Amanda ,what Mech is saying is the typical "pack" is simply a group of related members with one breeding pair. When a two or three year old leaves the pack he will then become the "alpha" male starting another pack. This is the basis of wolves in the wild. And yes, dogs (which are not wolves) form somewhat of an hierarchy but it is not rigid. And it not based on dominance . See the article above. I will find you an article about mounting.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Dave,
Well I think most researchers would say they are related however, from what I have seen, many have more than 2 adults in their pack in the wild. I agree dogs are not wolves, however, they are genetically pretty close  I saw the article above. I don't need an article on mounting, I see enough of it taking my dominant little maltese to the dog park!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yes they are adults, but they are two and three year old members of the same family. A pup will be a big as it's parents after one year.


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

Sorry....I meant to Quote here:

mounting is basically a sexual thing. Dogs will take turns mounting each other. It is was is called a fixed action pattern. But to understand the linear aspect within dogs here is a great article. http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/macho-myth
__________________
Dave and Molly Member of I.P.D.T.A. International Positive Dog Training Association

Great article Dave and an eye opener.

I kind of thought the two dogs that were aggressive in the dog park lacked the training at home.

So...........What the article is stating... it is the adolescent dogs are the ones fighting and growling; they are lacking the self-confidence and therefore lacking the training at home and socialization; And, whose owners are probably very dominant and probably over powering the dog into submission (which is not good).

Please correct me if I am wrong.

This is the article I believe you probably wanted posted, so let me read this one.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/down-amp-dirty-humping-sex-status-and-beyond


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

There are hierarchies in most living relationships. Whether you call it Alpha or dominant it is pretty much the same. But what I found interesting in the above was that in the wild a wolf would not roll another over unless he meant to kill. That action of rolling your dog over into submission has become the poster child for the "be the alpha" movement. And id that is true, imagine the trauma all us untrained could be causing by rolling our dogs over. That being said...my boys roll each other over all the time in play (Jasper usually tumbles Cash and makes him roll on his side) but I do not think they mean any harm...but I can clearly see it is a dominance thing. Just like taking turns humping. If Jasper is going crazy at the door Cash Humps him to put him check... If we are about to take them for a walk which is Cash's weak suit Jasper humps him (this is my walk)... If I have just groomed one of them and it's the other's turn the one that was just set free humps the other (sucker!.) My own little science project.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

HavaneseSoon said:


> Sorry....I meant to Quote here:
> 
> mounting is basically a sexual thing. Dogs will take turns mounting each other. It is was is called a fixed action pattern. But to understand the linear aspect within dogs here is a great article. http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/macho-myth
> __________________
> ...


Yes Linda that's basically right .and that is one of the articles that talks about humping. The one I was looking for by Jean Donaldson says much of the same, but is a little to long to copy and paste here. But for those of you who like to read about this whole dominance issue , here are a couple of articles. LOL
1. http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm
2. http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/d...-should-win-gutsiest-veterinary-document-year
3. http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/macho-myth 
4, http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/social-hierarchies
5, http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/defusing-dominance
6, http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/alpha-fallacy
7, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090521112711.htm
8. http://www.esquire.com/features/ESQ1006-ESQ100_20-21.FINAL.rev_1
9, http://www.askdryin.com/dominanceindogs.php
10 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tag/dog-dominance
11 http://www.nonlineardogs.com/index.html
12 http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/whisperer.html
13 http://dogpublic.com/articles/article.aspx?t=training411&sid=14&pid=1640
14 http://www.showdogs.co.za/articles/wag_the_dog/dominance.htm
15 http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance statement.pdf
16 http://www.urbandawgs.com/divided_profession.html
17 http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/current/research/030509.html
18 http://www.urbandawgs.com/luescher_millan.html
19 http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/index.html
20 http://www.bris.ac.uk/news/2009/6361.html
21 http://www.ipdta.org/#The_Dominance_Theory
22 http://www.4pawsu.com/pmdominance.htm
23 http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/dominance.htm


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

Dave, 

From the humping article, I can clearly understand humping is behavior that puppies are born with, just like humans have an automatic suck reflex. In other words, it is not a learned behavior.

So...........Is the inappropriately humping (that humans call inappropriately) a continued behavior that has not been corrected by the owner? 

I have also read if the dog being playful humped, has no problem with it, then, it is ok....Correct? 

But, if the humans call it inappropriate then an owner really must be consistent in their training in teaching the dog what inappropriate humping is............Correct????

I do not mean to be vulgar or funny with this post, I just want an understanding of dog behavior.


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

Thanks for all the articles Dave! I will not be bored for the next few weeks!


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## Laurasch (Jul 1, 2008)

I heard there is a university research project going on currently re humping (sorry, I forgot which school): ) and the final report is to come out soon.
The preliminary report indicated that humping occurs in several situations, from sex to simple play, and is not just about dominance or sex. Has anyone else heard of this study? If so, it would be wonderful if you could share more details to make up for my lousy memory!


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

Still learning Laura, but I am very curious about the study. I have started reading the links from Dave, which have been very helpful. You could probably Google *dog humping research study AND university * and see what shows up.

I came across a lecture from Ian Dunbar on dog training:

http://www.ted.com/talks/ian_dunbar_on_dog_friendly_dog_training.html


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

HavaneseSoon said:


> Dave,
> 
> From the humping article, I can clearly understand humping is behavior that puppies are born with, just like humans have an automatic suck reflex. In other words, it is not a learned behavior.
> 
> ...


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