# A year later and still a mess!



## milomyguy (Oct 2, 2009)

So I rescued a havanese in june of last year. I drove a few hours to get him and when I met him he was very people wary. I sat on the floor and just waited for him to come to me and when he did he seemed to be relieved but he shook like a little leaf in my arms. he was 2 1/2 years old. He was rescued from a breeder's home. The breeder had two other havs and neglected all three. Milo had to be shaved down to his skin and it came off in one large strip. When I brought him home I let him into the backyard to potty and he would not come back inside. My husband had to go round him up when it got too dark. His behavior improved slowly over time but he never really has come out of whatever happened to him. He still has potty issues. He still acts scared (even of me) he runs into my bedroom when people come over even if he knows them pretty well. He does not come when called. He will not eat properly and still has not got up to his vet recommended weight. He bolts when the door opens though he has gotten better about that. The other day he bit me which I never saw coming. The list goes on. I work with him every day on obedience training. I try to build trust with him. I hand feed him so I know he ate. I am crate training him again. I just can't give up. If I did give him up we all know what would happen to him. Words of encouragement and advice are greatly needed here. Anything you got- throw it out to me. Just please know I have tried. This dog is damaged- he has his good days but someone messed him up real good. Thank you in advance.


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## christie6104 (Apr 8, 2009)

I am so sorry to hear about your experience. You are truly doing everything you can to take care of this precious dog. Has the vet thoroughly checked him out to make sure that there are no health issues that may be causing some of his problems? It takes an amazing person to rescue a dog. If it makes you feel any better, I've been struggling with some of the same issues and I've had Lucky for about 9 months now. About 2 months ago, Lucky bit the maintence guy at my apartments and left a huge bite mark. (The guy walked into our small mail room and swung a trash can by us). He goes for weeks without an accident in the house and then all of the sudden he poops in the living room and pees on my curtains. I still don't think we really have "bonded" and there are days when I wonder if he even likes me. But I am so stubborn I tell myself over and over that I am going to make this dog like me and obey me and I guarantee you it will be a matter of time before both of our dogs come around. As far as I'm concearned it's a waiting game, and I've got all the time in the world.

Some people might beat me up for this...but do you give her lots of treats? That's really what got Lucky to come around a bit. And if you find a treat that your dog likes, it will probably stimulate her appetite or at the very least put a few pounds on her from eating them.

My heart goes out to you, but please know that you and your husband have done an amazing thing and this dog is so lucky to have you. 

What area do you live in?


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

You are a very special loving person to give your heart to the rehabilation of your Hav. I say yes to the treats! Let your pup be with you as much as possible. Play, play, play. 

Time, patience and lots of love and you are that special person.


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## milomyguy (Oct 2, 2009)

I am in the pacific northwest. I should really do my profile. It took a long time to get activated and I got so excited when it came through I forgot to do any profile info!

I feel like you must really get it....what i am going through i mean. I do not think Milo and i have bonded either and some days I think he would prefer if i left and then i come home after hours away and he just craves my attention and I know I will do whatever it takes to save him. I think some people say they 'rescued' their dog the day they took them home from the shelter but I feel like I never will truly rescue this dog. He is so far gone you can see it in his eyes. I wonder what really happened to him in his first two years.......if I ever meet his original owner.....

Thank you for the kind words. I need to hear them.


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## milomyguy (Oct 2, 2009)

Thank you Havanesesoon......Milo does love his treats....he just doesn't love taking them from me. He takes them like he is scared he will get yelled at even though I gave it to him and then he runs into another room to eat it!


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## Sandi Kerger (Mar 18, 2009)

You are a wonderful wonderful person to be doing this. I have often thought of getting a rescue dog, I go and look at all the pictures of those poor dogs and feel so bad for them.
I am sure he will come around, what a horrible life he must have had to make him feel like this.


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

Start the treats a little ways from you and slowly work the treats closer to you...it may take some time, but it will be worth it, when your pup takes that treat from your fingers.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Wow - what an angel you are to work so hard to help this little guy. As an HRI foster mom, we see a lot of this behavior, very often. Most all of the Mill dogs, have these types of behaviors. 
How much time are you with him? Is he alone when you are at work? 
I think that the treats is a great idea. Just sit on the floor, toss them to him. Praise him when he takes them. When he eventually comes to you to take them, make it a big party. 
Hold Potty parties, and possibly toss treats EVERY time he goes potty outside! I am sure that all of this must be so frustrating! 
I also would suggest that you ask your vet about a behaviorlist/trainer who has experience with abused dogs. They may have the best ideas to help you with each of his issues. 
Good luck, and please keep us updated on Milo!
Laurie


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## marb42 (Oct 19, 2008)

Bless you for taking that poor little guy, and it sounds like you're doing an amazing job. There are several people on the forum who have dealt with challenging rescues very successfully (I see Laurie responded while I wrote this book) , so hopefully they will give you some tips. Also, please contact http://www.havaneserescue.com/ if you haven't already, as they will have some advice on how to help Milo.

I have a dog that I now know came from a puppy mill. I found out later that well over a hundred dogs were found there despite the web site showing she had just one litter of Havanese. He came to me by plane and arrived a very frightened little puppy. He certainly doesn't sound like he's been through as much as Milo or Lucky but he has some of the same problems on a milder level. He has some fear aggression. He tries to bite and growl any dog that comes near us. He has bitten several people including myself, my son and his friend, he has had severe separation anxiety (has improved a little), he hated almost every food for the first year and a half, he still has potty accidents and leaks whenever he's scared or excited. He's always been just anxious and fearful. After being on this forum, I have realized how different he is from all the Hav's that were bred the right way in a loving home. He has definitely improved, but he still has biting issues, separation issues, etc. If you haven't already, I would consider hiring a good behavioral trainer in your area. The suggestions on treats were excellent (boiled chicken and chicken jerky are Marble's favorites). If you can find treats he loves, you can really encourage the good behaviors and make him want to behave. I'm sure you've worked with him by having visitors give him treats, but I think this will take so much longer because he is fearful and had several years of neglect under his belt before you got him. I think the key is that his progress will take a long time, and you need a lot of patience and consistency (which I see that you have). In terms of food, I had to try about 10 brands over the course of a year and a half to find one he'd eat. I finally resorted to a boiled chicken breast/vegetable diet that he loved, but you have to make sure they get the right balance. If Milo was neglected, then he was probably never taught to not bite, so it doesn't surprise me that he bit you. Just yelp and correct him, and make sure you watch him around people.

Christie, I had no idea that you were still dealing with so many issues. These dogs are so lucky to have such patient, dedicated people. I am sure that Lucky loves you, even if you can't see it sometimes. As I said, Marble still has accidents. He's almost three, and I've had him for 2 years and 9 months. Sometimes you may be able to improve it but not completely eliminate it. I do keep him in an expen when I leave.

You are both great to take these guys in and work with them so hard. Things will improve over time. Keep us updated.

Gina

Gina


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Thank you for rescuing this poor little dog. You patience will eventually be rewarded. One day he will just come around.


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## milomyguy (Oct 2, 2009)

I can not even tell you how much the kind words mean to me. I posted on another forum and got yelled at because of the questions i asked. i was told i should not own a dog. but i have been lurking through this forum while i awaited activation and i knew you all would understand. this breed is so special it seems that once you mess them up it is a long road to come back from! no one else seems to get that he really is emotionally scarred. everyone just suggests i don't know what i am doing and should give him up.....but if i gave him to the local shelter he would either be euthanized or eventually his new owners would come across the same hurdles i have and back to the shelter he would go!

Anyway, my point is, thank you. the advice and the encouragement, it goes a long way when you are at your wit's end! 

Milo is with me mostly all the time. I work part time caring for small kids and they come to my house a lot so even then he is with me. he does not mind children at all and even though he bit me i do not believe he would bite the children but i still watch them when they are together. When i can i take milo and my other dog, tobi, with me for car rides. I try to keep them near as much as possible. The vet has given us a clean bill of health and hiring anyone for anything is not possible for me financially. I will keep treats in my pockets and use them often. I will have guests give treats when they come over. I am not giving up though hubby thinks i should.


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## marb42 (Oct 19, 2008)

Well, I just can't see who would yell at you for owning a dog. That's crazy! You have taken a very damaged, traumatized dog and done the best you can. I doubt they could do it any better. No one understands unless they've dealt with a dog like this. You are probably right that a shelter would euthanize him and any future owner could potentially return him. If it gets to the point where you have to give him up, the havanese rescue is his best shot at getting a foster family who can help him. If you can't afford the behaviorist, read up, watch shows like It's Me or the Dog, and keep doing what you're doing. Lots and lots of treats for good behavior. If it hadn't been for this forum, I wouldn't have made it this far (don't tell my DH because he wants me to give up too), so stick with the forum and get all the advice you can. 
Gina


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## milomyguy (Oct 2, 2009)

Thanks marb...I love it's me or the dog. When I posted on the other dog forum I asked how much should a 10 pound dog eat per meal and how many meals a day? I used to free feed both dogs but Milo has only maintained his somewhat low weight and has not gained so I now have meal times and am not sure how much each dog should get to be full but also still eat their next meal. Well, when I posted this on the other forum some women called me stupid bc I have had Milo for over a year and was not sure how much to feed. I felt stupid but I also needed to know so I could help him get his weight up. Anyway, I am just eyeballing it now and he doesn't eat it all so I am still over feeding!


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## scoobydoo (Oct 5, 2009)

Awww I really feel for you must be really tough. I have had similar experiences on a forum as I am not comfortable giving Scooby raw bones (as I have a little one and worry about the germs)

What I did learn off that forum was to take control, baby steps. Have you ever used a clicker? It is amazing how much quicker you can train with this aid. 
So if I were in your shoes (hope I am not overstepping my mark) I would stop hand feeding. Find a simple home cooked recipe eg chicken rice and carrots. Offer it twice a day and remove after 20 mins. No dog will starve themselves. He will soon start to eat once he realises you mean business (might take a few days)
Then get your clicker charged (most come with simple instructions) Then train twice a day for about 15 mins each session. Start in the room you spend the most time (for me the kitchen) and work on sit until fluent. Tiny cubes of cheese work well for training. Then work on another cue like down and come etc. You will be amazed how much more attentive they are to you (as long as he is food motivated). I think these small changes will eventually help you bond  He will want to offer you pleasing behaviour. In return you will be super proud as he will show you just how clever little Havs are.
Don't forget a tbs of probiotic yog to help his little tum adjust.

Keep up the good work


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

Welcome! and Hang In There! Thank you for taking on this immense task. I have a 7-yr old puppy mill rescue. I'm not sure most of these severely damaged dogs ever fully recover. Even after 22 months it's still an ongoing progress. It sounds like you're doing everything you can right now - it may just take longer than you could have ever imagined so my best advice is just to stick with it. For me this has been a life lesson in patience, persistance and flexibility. I try to let Tess set the pace of how much she can handle. I try to be matter of fact but sensitive about new situations she encounters that scare her. I read a ton of books and got advice from everyone but at some point that can become paralyzing - I wasn't sure what was the right thing to do and afraid I'd do something really wrong. Finally I decided I'd just have to go with my gut. I make mistakes, she has set backs, and we make slow progress that I take great pride in. Tess will never be a well-balanced, easy-going Hav, but then she wouldn't be Tess. It sounds like you're doing everything you can. Hopefully we can at least offer you some support so you know you're not the only one struggling with issues like this. 

P.S.... You asked about amount to feed - Tess is also underweight at 10 pounds. For 1.5 years she was a terrible eater. I tried everything. Now she's on a very restricted diet due to allergies but is finally eating well. She gets 1/2 can of food twice a day plus as much dry kibble as she wants to eat during those two meals (usually 5-10 pieces) and then treats during the day. Cody is 16 pounds - he gets 1/3 cup of kibble + a scoop of canned food twice a day, plus whatever he can steal from Tess (she always sets a few pieces of her kibble aside for him) and treats.


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

I don't know if you've read through this thread but it sounds like you and Kay might have a lot in common.

http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=9722


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

milomyguy said:


> I am in the pacific northwest. I should really do my profile. It took a long time to get activated and I got so excited when it came through I forgot to do any profile info!


Hi Milo's mom,
Welcome to the forum! Everyone is really nice here and can really help you out, so you came to the right place.

I think the members with rescue dogs and foster rescues will be able to give you the best advice.

Where in the Pacific Northwest are you from ?. I am in the Tri-Cities.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Welcome to the forum, Milo's Mom!

:grouphug:

Ryan


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## JeanMarie (Mar 2, 2008)

Welcome and bless you for taking in this little guy. You didn't say where you lived in the PNW but if it's anywhere near Kirkland, perhaps we could plan a playdate.

Have you tried Freshpet Select food? It's very reasonably priced in a refridgerated area near the pet products in your grocerie store. I found it in QFC. Riley is a picky eater and he just woofs this stuff down. Worth a try!

Sending you best wishes, Jean


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## christie6104 (Apr 8, 2009)

milomyguy said:


> I am in the pacific northwest. I should really do my profile. It took a long time to get activated and I got so excited when it came through I forgot to do any profile info!
> 
> I feel like you must really get it....what i am going through i mean. I do not think Milo and i have bonded either and some days I think he would prefer if i left and then i come home after hours away and he just craves my attention and I know I will do whatever it takes to save him. I think some people say they 'rescued' their dog the day they took them home from the shelter but I feel like I never will truly rescue this dog. He is so far gone you can see it in his eyes. I wonder what really happened to him in his first two years.......if I ever meet his original owner.....
> 
> Thank you for the kind words. I need to hear them.


I hope I'm not "high jacking" your thread, but I can totally relate to the part where you talk how you have to leave for your dog to miss you. It happens to me and it's soooo frustrating because you think to yourself "I know you like me when I come back home, so why can't you act like this all the time?" And the part about reading about how other Havanese act and wishing your dog would behave the same way. I get so jealous when I read about the "RLH" thing. When Lucky gets "frisky" I'm the one doing the "RLH" thing around the house trying to get him to follow me. He's done 1 lap so far and in the meantime I'm getting a lot of exercise! (And I'm begining to think he has me trained pretty well).

One last think (I promise). Have you tried sitting on the floor and putting a treat close to you and then just ignoring Milo. (Maybe watch tv or talk on the phone)? I think it takes the pressure off the dog to take a treat from you, but he still has to come close to you to get it. Just something I did with Lucky and I had some sucess.

Well...it looks like I "high jacked" your thread anyway. But please keep us posted. And post some pictures when you get a chance....we LOVE pictures!!!


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

Another thing, just in case it has not been mentioned. Try your best that the little children leave the dog alone. High pitched children's voices and fast movements and wanting to touch or grab the pup can be very scary to a dog.


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## milomyguy (Oct 2, 2009)

Yeah i thought of the kids thing too but kids are not the issue. Milo chases them if they leave him and puts his butt in the air wagging his tail until they chase him back....maybe if i were three he would like me more! Also, he does take treats from me he just runs away with them like he is scared or something. Tail between his legs and all! If I give him several in a row then he gets the idea and will stick around. He will perform tricks for me too. He is VERY smart and food motivates him but it is like his own shadow scares him sometimes!

I am going to take all of your advice though bc obviously I am not trying quite hard enough....or maybe I just have to accept that this is Milo forever!


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## milomyguy (Oct 2, 2009)

I am in Burlington, Washington....For those of you that don't know that is about an hour north of Seattle and an hour South of the border.

I do not feel like my thread was hi-jacked....I like to know I am not alone here!


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

milomyguy said:


> I am going to take all of your advice though bc obviously I am not trying quite hard enough....or maybe I just have to accept that this is Milo forever!


It's not that you're not trying hard enough! And Milo probably won't be like this forever. You just need to be patient. Milo's progress may be much slower than what you hoped for. A year ago Tess wouldn't come out of her carrier when we were at the dog park. Now she wanders around exploring, checks out all of the dogs and people, and every once in a while runs like he**. She doesn't play with the other dogs and gets spooked easily but who know what next year will bring!

It's a very fine line between not expecting too much, too soon and under-estimating what Milo is capable of. Try to enjoy whatever fun you do have with Milo. If it requires the use of a bribe - bribe away!


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

I think Jill has given you some really good advice....

I am sure enjoying my two havs, after there learned my house rules...they are just the best thing, I totally enjoy them. We still are working with Casper all the time on meeting strange dogs and people...but it is getting better.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Welcome! I love the avatar you have of Milo looking playful.

I can imagine the challenges you face as I've volunteered quite a few times at the local shelter after mill seizures and have seen what these dogs can be like. It is not at all a "romantic" idea nor is it easy to take one of these dogs in and try to rehabilitate him/her. I know many of us want to do this, to save a mill dog, but it is a huge endeavor. Some do progress beautifully and have personalities to die for, finally feeling secure and happy in their own skin and environment. Others take months and years before they stop jumping at shadows and some just never do, sad to say. I congratulate you on your perseverance with Milo, not giving up hope, but rather taking the chance and asking any questions you have. I am glad you found us.  As you can see, there are others in the same boat and their advice is invaluable.

Some say that clicker training can change things like night and day, others say that sometimes the dog is too terrified of even the slightest noise. Milo, being used to young kids, though might not mind the clicker at all, so might be worth trying. Karen Pryor is the top expert with this type of training, so check her site out if interested: http://www.clickertraining.com/

Jill's thread "Breakthrough" about Tess's first runlikehell session at their dog park is moving, as we all understand just how far she's come to finally feel comfortable enough to run for the fun of it. Every baby step is rewarding, but it can also be frustrating reading about "other" Havs that don't suffer from the same traumas and do so well. I've seen the mess these dogs are in and I'm never surprised at how damaged they can be, even though they have new, safe and healthy lives. And then, there are those times when you see a dog blossom right before your eyes and you continue to hope.

I guess I'm just rambling now, but I want you to know that I'm very proud of what you are trying to do for Milo. There is no one in the world that can judge you whether you keep trying for years to come to help Milo be happy or whether you make a decision to find him another home, or WHATEVER decision you make. ((hugs))


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

Welcome to the forum! 
What if you tethered him to you anytime you are in the house? (connect his leash to your belt and that way he follows you where ever you go)
That way, he is with you always and you can praise him throughout the day without him running away to eat his treat. 
It may help with potty training too.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

I'm so glad to see that Laurie responded to you, the Havanese Rescue folks are amazing and have so much experience with troubled dogs. 

Treats are a wonderful motivational tool! Find out what he really likes and use it to your advantage. Boiled chicken is "puppy crack" at our house, our dogs will climb up us to get it. Some dogs love hot dogs too. 

Bless you for not giving up on him, the poor baby just sounds scared. I'd try to find a behaviorist to help out. Wish I had more to offer but I'm new at all the dog stuff too!


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

milomyguy said:


> I am in Burlington, Washington....For those of you that don't know that is about an hour north of Seattle and an hour South of the border.
> 
> I do not feel like my thread was hi-jacked....I like to know I am not alone here!


Hey, there, neighbor! I'm in Oak Harbor. Welcome. And, I think you are doing a terrific job with Milo!!


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

Hi, Milo's Mom! Just had to add a little to let you know that you are not alone and I don't think this is that unusual. We got Abby at eight months from a breeder (we think). She was flown to us and was totally traumatized by the whole thing. We've had her for over a year and a half and she is just now becoming so much better. But what I call good is what most people have had from the beginning! I won't go into all we have gone through (it would take all night!) but if you just stay as persistant as you've been I think it will eventually pay off. The part about treats is right-on. Abby wouldn't go near my husband for the first few months until I let him give her snacks (pretzels) and now she loves him (not as much as me, of course!) but what a difference that made. She still has her favorite spots behind chairs mostly which is where she would hide from us at the begining. She is finally in the past few days letting me pick her up and hold her without squirming to get down immediately and she's relaxing her body against me.

Sorry about going on & on but just wanted to give a couple of examples. Keep up the good work - we are all rooting for you and Milo! 

Abby may never go beyond what she is right now but she is potty trained and loves us - what more could we ask?


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## milomyguy (Oct 2, 2009)

Oh YAY!!!! Oak Harbor! We need to get together. I go over there all the time. I was just there yesterday! We need to have a playdate!. OOOO.....exciting! I am not sure how Milo would do but I think it would be wortha try. He has no dog aggression btw!


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

That would be good! You can "PM" me by clicking on my avatar, then on the PM link.


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## Alexa (Jun 17, 2007)

Welcome to the forum! I am just down the road from you (in Snohomish) and would love to meet up some time, too!!

Alexa


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## kaydm (Aug 5, 2009)

My heart goes out to you. Wow, I have only had Maggie for about 2 months and some days I am exhausted trying to figure out ways to get her to bond with me. I do not understand all her behavior and her latest little short whine but I just love her and hope that what I am doing is helping in the long run. 

I admire your patience and perseverance with Milo. This breed has always been known for companionship. I want my dog to love me as much as she loves all dogs. I want her to wag her tail for me and take a treat out of my hand. Maybe she will never be or do all those things. I keep hoping though. Kay


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## milomyguy (Oct 2, 2009)

It is just so great to hear form all of you. At first I read on this forum about all of the happy havanese and i was sure no one could relate. then i saw some other threads and started this one with great response. makes a girl feel like she can do anything!


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## Nanny (May 18, 2009)

Just to let you know I too have a rescue from a breeder it will be a year next month..the issues with Phoebe we relentless. Not potty trained fear of everyone she was then 3 1/2..my answer was we got a new Hav pup and he has been the life savor for Phoebe..taught her how to play and interact with others..not that Phoebe will ever be like our adorable Benji..but he has helped her so much..I kid you not the first time I seen them play tug of war..I cried i was so happy..Good Luck and I really mean that I know not eveyone would want two..but I love it.


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

Nanny said:


> Just to let you know I too have a rescue from a breeder it will be a year next month..the issues with Phoebe we relentless. Not potty trained fear of everyone she was then 3 1/2..my answer was we got a new Hav pup and he has been the life savor for Phoebe..taught her how to play and interact with others..not that Phoebe will ever be like our adorable Benji..but he has helped her so much..I kid you not the first time I seen them play tug of war..I cried i was so happy..Good Luck and I really mean that I know not eveyone would want two..but I love it.


I agree, Cody has done more to heal Tess' wounds and teach her how to be a dog than I ever could have.


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## milomyguy (Oct 2, 2009)

I would loooove another one but hubby would say no and I can not afford one. I was working when we got Milo and as a rescue he was not the normal price you would pay or even close to the normal price of a hav! But maybe another puppy one day would help. We will see.

So far the crate training seems to be helping. Obviously he can't go at night because I have him crated. But he seems to be more communicative with me when he needs to go during the day too. I see good signs that we are finally on the right track but this has happened before. He will do well for weeks and then he goes right back to his old ways. It is like he just can't bear to be all healed up! Anyway, we are having a good couple of weeks here and I am just enjoying while it lasts!


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Sorry, but I don't know your name..... "Milo's Mom", I was thinking about you and Milo late last night. I remembered what Cesar Milan always says about how dogs live in the moment. They don't care/dwell on what past experiences they had. We attach so much emotion to those past events, his living conditions, traumas, etc... but if Milo lives in the moment, day by day, then there are opportunities for him to get past all that stuff. 

I think, first, you need to get past it. It can't be easy! The history he has counts for something, of course, but as you just said, you are enjoying a couple of good weeks and I'll bet that eases a lot of the tension. As frustrating as it is to "go backwards" when you think you've finally progressed, try to see each day as a new one. 

I really don't mean to minimize all that you are going through! It was just something that popped into my head while laying in bed thinking about little Milo and the other mill dog rescues. I give you props for all that you do!


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

I am working with a behaviorist for issues with both of my dogs. Smarty leash scared aggression and Galen, my rescue mill puppy, fear issues. I will PM you with her web site & email address. Maybe she can give you some reading material that will help or refer you to someone in your area.


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## milomyguy (Oct 2, 2009)

Yeah I always thought dogs had the memories of goldfish...you know 10 seconds and it is gone? Well Milo remembers things like no other dog I have met. I thought we were over his past for awhile but then he took several steps backward and try as I might I can't see the triggers! That is the real problem- I can't find his triggers! If I could then I could see the backsliding before it began but I do not know what keeps pushing him that way. anyway i am happy to enjoy these good days as they come!


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

I can certainly understand your frustration, I think we have a fantasy of what life with a happy little puppy will be and boy can the reality be a slap in the face! I can remember sitting on the floor crying wondering when it would ever be fun. Most of the threads I read on here were positive and I felt like a total failure because my dog wasn't like everyone else's. 

Finally I asked for help and got so much great advice!!! Try not to compare him to other dogs as they're all so different. IMO, just the fact that you care so much and are so willing to work with him will help to bring him around.

He's adorable in your photo! I wish you all the best with Milo!!!


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Yup, it would be great to know what it is that causes Milo to backslide at times. What's the matter, can't you read his mind??


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## milomyguy (Oct 2, 2009)

Well actually I can read his mind....but all he thinks is...."Is that pen in her hand edible? Is that chicken or soap?" And things along these lines!


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## milomyguy (Oct 2, 2009)

So last night Milo jumps into my lap and I am petting him trying to keep him there. Normally he will jump up and then right back off. Well, not only did he stay but.....HE LICKED ME!!!!!! tHIS IS A FIRST. Milo has never licked anyone! But he licked me last night and I had no food residue on me that I know of but even if I did he does not lick! This was pretty big for me. He also stayed in my lap for a good long pet. When he left my lap was cold and I called him back and he came running! This has never happened before. Normally I have to call him several times to get him to come to me for anything! I feel so good!


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Oh, happy smiles here for you!!! What a treat you got last night! I hope it happens again, soon. arty: :rockon:


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## jillnors2 (Apr 12, 2007)

I have a question, do you have other dogs? My little Emi was a mess at first but learned so much from her brother, a trusting, confident male. She's a delight now but it did take awhile.


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## milomyguy (Oct 2, 2009)

Yes, I have another dog. He is also a rescue but his issues do not go anywhere near as deep as Milo's. However he is a bully and this might be impacting Milo's issues. Tobi is a blue heeler and when I let both dogs out the door to go potty Tobi will turn around and snarl at Milo and snap at him. It looks like a dominance thing to me but I do not like it. Also, Tobi will steal Milo's food if you don't watch him. Tobi does try to play with Milo but Milo really doesn't care for play. Even at the off leash dog park Milo will just wander off on his own and not really interact with other dogs. Anyway, we seem to be turning a new leaf here. I wonder if this is the big breakthrough I have waited over a year for?


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## marb42 (Oct 19, 2008)

I am so happy to hear about your breakthrough with Milo! :clap2::cheer2: I think that things will continue to improve! My dog doesn't interact well with other dogs and just kind of co-exists with the other dogs at doggie daycare. Maybe Milo will slowly warm up to your other dog. I think you're right and if you can try to correct Tobi when he snarls or steals food, I think that this will help Milo. 
Gina


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

What a major breakthrough! Sometimes it just seems like something "clicks" in their brain......lol I know you've been waiting a long time but doesn't it feel good when it finally happens??


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## milomyguy (Oct 2, 2009)

It is amzing how things have changed in my house and I have not done much. I started have meal times rather then free feed and I started crating Milo at night (he loves his crate) and we have been focusing more on grooming. I used to just take him in and keep him in a puppy cut but now I am trying to let it grow for the winter and because I want to see him in full coat. Anyway, we brush everyday and I think it has helped our bonding with each other. He has evn been taking treats from me and then hanging around to see if he is going to get anymore.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

Sounds like Milo has a fear of other dogs because of how he's treated by Tobi. I think I'd work on him bullying Milo and you may see a change in both dogs.


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## milomyguy (Oct 2, 2009)

He doesn't exhibit any fear. Milo does not seem to care when Tobi does dominance stuff. And when the other dogs at the park approach Milo he will sniff and let them sniff him. He just doesn't PLAY with them. After initial greetings are over he runs off on his own. Sometimes he will let Tobi run with him but mostly he goes on his own and never participates or plays with the other dogs. But he never seems AFRAID. Just distant and aloof. 

Still, Tobi needs correction with his bullying. That is an absolute must as far as I am concerned. Tobi has started to bully my three year old too and that will NOT be tolerated- either towards my daughter or towards Milo.


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## princessp (Aug 2, 2009)

I have to tell you about Molly, our non Hav. She was a rescue that we got about 10 years ago. The rescue place said they found her wandering the streets of Miami and was pregnant. She had the puppies after she was rescued (she was only about 1 year old). We had Jackson (our English Setter/Britany Spaniel mix we got as a puppy) and he was such a couch potato! Molly was scared of her own shadow. She would only come out at night and during the day, would stay in her crate. If she did happen to come out, she would walk around the perimeter of the room and never come up to cuddle or anything. If we took her for walks, she would have her tail between her legs the whole time. On the bright side, she was housebroken and never snapped at anyone, she was just scared. Her and Jackson never played with each other or fought, they just co-existed. Gradually, she came out of her shell for the most part. She loved going for walks (with her tail up, by the way), and would come up and sit with us for short periods of time, then leave. Flash forward about 10 years. We got Sami at a rescue. We were very lucky in that Sami had no issues, I don't know why her previous owners gave her up. Anyways, she tried to get Molly to play, with no luck. Molly would sometimes snap at Sami, so Sami gave up trying to get Molly to play. Sami also tried to get Jackson to play, but he was so old by that time, he would just ignore her. Then we got Darin, a puppymill rescue about a month before Jackson died. He has done wonders for Molly. He loves Molly and is constantly trying to get her to play. She doesn't usually, but I have seen her occasionally doing the RLH with him. She doesn't snap at him unless he is really relentless. But, the change in her is dramatic. She doesn't run and hide during the day, she will actually sit out with the family and she will even try to get as much attention from us as the Havs. She has gotten more bold with non family members. But just to see her "playing" in her own way, with Darin is a great breakthrough. It only took about 10 years, lol, so there is hope for all!


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## milomyguy (Oct 2, 2009)

Oh Gee....ONLY ten years? LOL. Glad she came around for you. I feel like I have gotten my hopes up with Milo before but before he had never licked me or chosen to stay in my lap when he could have left. Also, he is smiling more lately. Or panting. I think it is a smile. Hubby says it is a pant. But either way his body language is different. He seems relaxed. He has never really relaxed before. Always been kind of edgy....ready to dart away. This is so nice. I will enjoy it while it lasts!


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## princessp (Aug 2, 2009)

That is good that he is more relaxed. Molly was always ready to bolt, until recently (except when we get the camera out, she hates getting her picture taken for some reason). So, at least Milo won't be taking 10 years for that, sounds promising.


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## milomyguy (Oct 2, 2009)

Honestly, even if it is ten years I am in it for the long haul. Still, these baby steps are nice to see!


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## Chere (May 22, 2009)

Wonderful breakthrough with the petting! We have two rescues; one has much the same behavior as your Milo. We have had ours just a year and have seen progress. One dog is very loving and cuddly (Shadow); Jesse is much more standoffish and is fear aggressive (although that seems to be improving). You mentioned growing Milo's coat out; our experience was the opposite. We let the coats grow at first and did the grooming but once we decided on puppy cuts both dogs did much better with bonding with us. I think they disliked the whole grooming thing with the long coats; we still groom with the puppy cuts but it is faster and easier. Jesse made the most progress when we clipped him shorter. 

I llike to think of the rescue dogs somewhat like foster children (my daughter works in foster care). Each child brings a negative experience with her (otherwise it is highly unlikely that she would be in foster care) but each one also reacts differently to those experiences. Some seem to bounce back pretty quickly and others have issues that last a very long time. You are providing a loving home for Milo and he is coming around for you; he may never RLH but that's not the best part of having a rescue dog anyway. Yes, it is very cute but really, your ability to offer love and training to Milo is the very best thing as it tells you a great deal about yourself and how kind you are to take him on and work with his issues. I don't think you will regret having him; he will continue to adapt and make progress but he may never be your "dream" Havanese. He might be your "Holland" to "Italy" story (do you know that story about disabled children?). You wanted Italy, you got Holland and you learn to love Holland as much as you think you might have loved Italy. I think you are doing a wonderful job.


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## milomyguy (Oct 2, 2009)

Chere I do not know the Italy Holland story. Could you fill me in?


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## Chere (May 22, 2009)

Milo, I'll gladly fill you in as it is a lovely story. I know I cannot do it justice so those of you who know it, forgive me. 

A young couple once wanted a baby very, very badly. After trying very hard, they became pregnant. The entire pregnancy was filled with joy and anticipation by the parents to be and their families. The day arrived for the birth of the long awaited child. Alas, the baby had Down Syndrome; the couple cried and wondered how this had happened to them. But they sadly took their baby home. Years passed and they were talking about their experience one day with someone else. They explained that their initial disappointment had turned to joy in their child, they loved him fiercely and couldn't imagine loving any more had he been all they expected when they were pregnant. The person they were explaining this to didn't quite understand so the parents explained as if they had been planning for a wonderful vacation to Italy. In preparing for the vacation they read all about Italy, studied travel brochures, bought clothing suitable for travelling all around Italy. They just knew it was going to be their favorite vacation ever. They boarded the plane and settled in for a night's sleep while flying over the ocean. When they awoke, they disembarked, only to discover that they had landed in Holland and it was not at all what they wanted. The land looked different, the food was not what they wanted, in all, they were disappointed and even a bit angry. But as the days passed, and they began to explore Holland, they fell in love with the country. They loved the quiet and industrious people, the simplicity of the food, the beauty of the coast and even the wooden shoes. They enjoyed long, slow walks and bicycle rides in the country side. In later years, they decided that Holland was the best vacation they ever had and that they were so lucky to have landed in Holland instead of Italy. 

Of course, the moral is to find the best in everyone (or, every dog!) and you will be happy and glad you are with the one you're with. I think you will be this way with Milo, once you realize how wonderful he is, just as he is (well, perhaps with a bit more house training  ). I wish my Jesse wasn't so fearful that he can't quite be trusted not to bite and I wish his housetraining would stay consistent. But, I can't imagine being without him; he is so darned cute in so many ways. You are going to be fine with your precious dog, just don't concern yourself right now with being in Holland instead of Italy. Sending you a big hug for being such a good person for Milo.


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## FancyNancy (Oct 7, 2009)

I too think you are wonderful for trying so hard to make Milo feel loved and secure. However, I also think that you should not feel that you HAVE to continue with the dog if it becomes too much for you. Sometimes, no matter how much your heart is in the right place, you have to give up. I'm not saying you SHOULD, I just want you to feel like you can if you have to.


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## milomyguy (Oct 2, 2009)

I know there are places that could take him but at this stage in his life it is better if i keep him. I know he eats here and i know he is warm and loved. I know he doesn't get hit or yelled at. I could not send him away and wonder if he had the same treatment with someone else. Besides the way he is now no one would be able to put up with him! lol! he really is a tough one.....I could not in good conscience give him to anyone the way he is now.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Chere, what a beautiful story ! Definitely a life lesson. 

Some weeks feel like you're taking a step forward and two steps back, other weeks will feel so much better. I admire you for hanging in there with Milo. He's in a loving home and that is what is best for him.


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## Judy -- Toby & Jaime's mo (Apr 21, 2007)

*Puppy mill rescue*

Dear Milo's Mom,
This is my first post and I have to figure out how to fix signature, but I was doing a search on puppy mill rescues as I am always looking for more info. I thought I would chime in. I have had Dori since 11/08 and she was an 18 month old puppy mill rescue in 8/08. She was in a foster home since 8/08 when she was obtained at a dog auction. She had all the usual mill traits and was still very afraid when she came home with us. She regressed from where she was at her foster home. She had really bonded with her foster mom and one of her Bichon dogs. Dori would not come in the house, she ran from us etc.etc., BUT SHE WOULD EAT TREATS. We were lucky she was food motivated as that helped so much with her training. I read everything I could about rescues and shy dogs. After a couple of months I enrolled her in obedience -- turns out it was not a right match with the teacher. However, with the knowledge I gained from a book I read on shy dogs (we would go off to the side when she would shut down), she ended up finishing at the head of her class.

I then found a GREAT trainer who had a puppy mill rescue of her own and we worked privately on some of her issues, then we enrolled in several of her classes to help build her confidence. She earned her Canine Good Citzienship and later passed her Pet Therapy Test.

She has always had men fear issues and still has a fight within her mind between what she KNOWS to be true and what thinks to be true from her past. But it still improving, although not to where we would like it to be. She will always come running to my husband when food is involved, but . . . 
She slept in a crate beside our bed for a little over a year and joined the clan earlier this year on the bed. Very jumpy at first, but she will now curl up next to my husband or me.

She had a crate in the LR that she went to on her own so much. With our Havs we want them on the couch, but she would not come. After a long while she would go on the loveseat but not the LR couch (think she viewed that as our other two HAV's property). We took our dogs to Savannah for vacation three months after we got her and she did FANTASTIC there -- so dog friendly. Away from home, she had no issues getting on the couch! Late last year, I noticed she was not going in the crate any more so it was put away. -- I thought that was a major milestone.
In the first few months we had her, she fear bite my husband a couple of times when he tried to bring her in from outside and I was not home (the outside thing is a whole story itself). She will now with him outside and back in pretty good.

I have kept a journal on her journey and it is interesting for me now to go back and read how things used to be.

Last week she jumped on the LR couch for the first time -- I was so excited -- but she has not done it again. She has been going on the Sunroom couch for a quite a few months.

In the car or outside she will sit on my lap for ages -- cannot explain the difference between inside our house and out.

She is still a work in progress, but she has come so far and even if she does not improve any more (but I am sure she will) it is okay.

I never baby her so as to not reinforce her fear behavior, try to use many of the Dog Whisperer techniques. When we come across something that makes her jumpy I just use happy talk to make it seem like nothing.
She has weathered the illness and death of our almost 10 year old Havanese this winter. She is very calm and content with our 15 year old Havanese who is the boss. I almost adopted another puppy mill rescue that was 7 months old who had already rebounded pretty well from her experience, but she was far away and very difficult for us to see how personalities mesh etc. Ultimately, we decided to keep our clan at two and will adopt anther when our oldest . . . .

I could go on forever about Dori, but one good story is about the follow up visit her foster mom Shirley did two weeks after she came to us. Dori was still pretty sad, but when she saw Shirley she was SO EXCITED I have to admit I felt bad. Shirley and I got together five months later and several times after that and Dori does not display any recognition of her. Dori is totally bonded to me, just not exactly in the same way my other Havs were -- it is just the way it is. Someday, maybe she will lavish kisses on me someday but for now is OKAY and I am so proud of her progress.

Would love to hear an update on Milo as it has been five months since the thread. Hope things are continuing to improve.

Judy
Jaime and Dori's mom


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

THIS is an OLD THREAD, this is a link to the update back in December.

http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=10651

Wonder how Milo is dong now?


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## princessp (Aug 2, 2009)

Hi Judy, I posted a while ago in this thread about our non-Hav Molly but I wanted to tell you about our puppymill rescue Darin. We got him when he was about 7 months old. He wouldn't come to us at all but he did like to be in the same room as us and he loves being with Molly. Since she's about 10 years older than him, we call her his "Cougar"! We have had Darin about a year now and what an improvement in him. We can almost notice little things everyday. He was fearful of men at first, and I have a husband and 2 teenage boys, but now he will climb on top of my husband if he is sitting on the couch or laying in bed. He loves my youngest son Tyler, who is 16. I worked with him on a leash with treats and taught him to sit, shake and come when called. If he is off the leash, he will still sit on command (most times) and shake, although he sometimes tries to back away if you put your hand out. The real breakthrough is that I can actually tell him to sit and I can walk over and pet him! And, trying to get his leash on him was a hassle, trying to catch him, but yesterday, we decided to take the dogs to the dog park so I got all their leashes and Darin came right over with the other 2 and let me put it on him! Then, at the dog park, who was Mr. Social?? He was trying to get all the other dogs to play AND he let strangers pet him! (They were sitting on the ground). He loves to play with Sami (our other Hav) and they just chase each other and wrestle around all the time. Yesterday at the park, someone had a squeaky toy and squeaked it and the 2 of them went running over to see what the toy was! He is such a good boy and has made so much progress in the past year. Is he 100%? No, but he really is working on it and I think that eventually, he will get there. And, if he doesn't, we still love him, quirks and all!


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Judy, your story brings tears to my eyes, though they are tears of joy at your understanding of Dori's experience and patience with her. Vicky, both you and Judy show an acceptance of your 'mill dogs' that is admirable. 

I think having other Havs/dogs around must really help these dogs through their issues. My hat is off to you both! Thank you so much for sharing your stories. I look forward to hearing about every little accomplishment your little ones do as it means so much.


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## Judy -- Toby & Jaime's mo (Apr 21, 2007)

Marj and Vicki

"The Havs and Hav Not" what a cute description for two Havs and another breed. 

There is no doubt that a puppy mill rescue is not for the faint of heart, but is a joy for those who are willing to put the effort into it.

I definately think it is a HUGE HUGE asset to have another dog to help teach dog ways to mill dogs. After I posted I noticed from another post that Milo was an only dog so I think that would make a REALLY BIG difference. I got Dori through HALO and they generally require the mill rescue dogs go to homes with other dogs. Havanse Rescue does the same thing. Having two dogs together that are mill rescues is also not a good thing because they tend to bond together and not with people.

When our 15 year old goes to the Rainbow Bridge we will have to see if Dori is a strong enough role model to help "parent" another puppy mill rescue. I know it will have to be one that does not have men issues, since my DH will have lost "his HAVs". Like many others my husband just could not understand my feeling that I just had to have a HAV 17 years ago -- I had a two year campaign before he relented (and logically so since we had two other dogs). Like the other husbands, he was immediately smitten and I quickly lost my #1 placement in MY Hav's heart. When we got a second HAV, he followed him around like he was the Pied Piper and my husband was devasted when Toby died in February. With Dori, I finally a HAV for whom I am her person whether Tom is around or not.

Judy -- Jaime and Dori's mom


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