# My 10 week old female puppy is humping her toy...



## Wildflower

I have searched and searched the forum looking for a similar situation, but seems like most dogs 'humping' are older.

Any reason why Holly would be doing this at such a young age? I read the dominance thing but she's only 10 weeks old.

She has a stuffed toy with a giant head that is about the same size as she is and that is the only toy she is doing this with so far... 

Do I tell her no? Take the toy away? 

Any comments appreciated! Thank you!


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## pjewel

I wouldn't worry about it. I know a lot of them do this from an early age. I honestly don't remember when my guys started to do it but I think they were older. I'm sure you'll get feedback from other members but it wouldn't concern me.


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## Missy

Jasper did this to his giant "tiger" stuffed animal when he was 8 weeks. he also tried to hump us and we gave him tiger instead.


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## Julie

She is a bossy little thing huh?ound:

I wouldn't worry about it too much,but....if she were mine,I'd give her a verbal correction. I personally never wanted this humping going on at my house because it is embarrasing when you have people over. Most people inaccurately think of it as sexual,not dominance. Thankfully I never really had this problem here with my boys,but occasionally Quincy will try to hump Vinnie after play and Vinnie puts him down.:thumb:


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## KSC

I don't know the "right" answer either and doubt there is one...it's harmless but it's about where your limits are. Our trainer talked about this as a behaviour that's not so desirable - in any case if the behaviour is undesirable to you I'd also agree with Julie and verbally correct it. 'Stop' and give another toy instead..something like that. I do not like humping myself and if Kipling starts we do stop him. We do not have an ongoing issue with him on that front as a result. In the end it's really up to you and what you want.


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## Sheri

I don't like the humping either, and whenever Tucker tries it with the cat I stop it. It only takes a verbal "No" or "Stop that" and he moves on to just wrestling with her. I find it embarrassing, also.


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## Wildflower

Thanks everybody -- I was worried it was a problem at her age! Think I might just take that particular toy away and if she starts with another, we'll tell her to stop. 

Julie, I think she's going to be a bossy one for sure! You made me LOL!


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## onemoreokie

Chloe has a big stuffed bear she likes to hump. We refer to it as the humper bear! She used to completly exhaust herself on the thing. It was a trip. A few times I thought she may have a heart attack. That phase only lasted a couple months though.


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## KSC

A friend of mine who's Hav is 3 years older than mine talked about how she humped a certain toy very early on as well - the toy was nearly the same size as the dog and she took that particular toy away and it resolved itself. It's definitely not uncommon.


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## karin117

At this age, 10 weeks, humping are not sexual..just a behavior that is "coming out" in adjusting to the new situation...new home.
Try to make her fokus om something els, and get some rest. I think many pup can do this when they are"overwhelmd"...nothing strange, nothing odd, nothing sexual..Relax...and she will..Good Luck


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## Julie

:laugh: I know there are a few havs on here with "humping" toys. I am not sure who had the pup right at the moment....but her pup humped a laughing carrot.

Beamer is a humper too.

I bet Karin is right in your case Carolyn..she is probably just adjusting to your home.


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## Leslie

Anybody remember this picture of Spunky? He was 10 wks. old and this is what he did the first time he met 3 year old Rascal ound:


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## Evye's Mom

Leslie said:


> Anybody remember this picture of Spunky? He was 10 wks. old and this is what he did the first time he met 3 year old Rascal ound:


Cute picture Leslie. Rascal doesn't look too bothered by his little humper.


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## Leslie

No, Sharlene, she wasn't bothered at all, yet.... Rascal is extremely laid back and definitely "low man on the totem pole" when it comes to pack rank. But eventually, Spunky did get the better of her (and Tori) with his shenanigans.

Last I heard he was in the perfect forever home, for him. :thumb:


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## Mojo's Mom

Mojo started humping almost as soon as we got him, at nine weeks. Here is a photo of him at about 14 weeks, making his best effort to hump a 90 pound lab:









He used to have a stuffed "hump dog". After a couple of occasions AFTER his neuter when he got so carried away that the red rocket was fully out with the lock part all swollen up and all of it getting dehydrated....we took the hump dog away. I have to say, we were quite surprised at how well-endowed the little guys are...I think my husband was a little jealous, in terms of "rocket" size to body size ratio.

Mojo will try to hump me when he's demanding my attention sometimes, but I don't allow this.


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## Julie

I think it's a habit that you either allow or you correct early on depending on your comfort level.

As innocent and funny as it may appear as a puppy it's not gonna be cute if you have house guests over and your dog takes a liking to the preachers leg.

I would NEVER allow my dogs to do this and no dog will ever hump me. I had one try it at the vet's while I was working.....lets just say....he *tried it once*.


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## DanielBMe

Bogart likes to hump his stuffed rottweiler after every dinner. Once done with dinner he runs over to the love shack and humps it like there's no tomorrow. I now take away the toy and only leave it out 3 times a week. I don't want Bogart getting too frustrated lol


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## susieg

Lola's been a humper since we brought her home at 11 weeks. But she attempts to hump ME not a toy. She jumps on my lap and tries to grab my arm with her front paws and go to town. I always tell her NO HUMPING! and remove her. Sometimes her little paws are trying to grasp so tightly, I really have to pull her off. I think its a little amusing, but I don't allow it. Not sure if she's trying to get my attention or dominate me.


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## davetgabby

For the most part mounting is a sexual thing. Here once again is an article that explains it. 
Oh behave: Love and mounting 
October 31, 2008, By Jean Donaldson, ARTICLE, BEHAVIOUR 
My female dog mounts other dogs. Why does she do it? I assume she’s dominating others. She’ll be playing well with a dog and then suddenly she’s mounting him or her. I find it obnoxious and so do many other owners. What’s the best way to get her to stop doing it?
Ah, love. I’ll tip the hand early and tell you the greatest likelihood is that mounting is a sexual behaviour. In fact, I think this could stand some screaming from the rooftops: mounting is sex, mounting is sex, mounting is sex! That this is not obvious to any onlooker is pretty amazing.

Let’s begin at the beginning. Fixed action patterns, or FAPs, are important behaviours that are pre-installed in animals, kind of like bundled software that comes with a computer. Fixed action patterns require no learning and are triggered by something in the environment. A classic example is a moving bit of string that triggers a six-week-old kitten to pounce. The pouncing sequence is stereotyped across all cats. Another example is how a cat will turn sideways, arch his back, puff up and hiss. This is a self-defense FAP, again common to all cats and stereotyped.

Ethologists have coined the four big areas of endeavour under which most FAPs fall the “Four F’s”: fight, flight, feeding and reproduction. Animals that lack competency in the Four F’s don’t pass on their incompetent genes; but interestingly, domestication allows the occasional Four F incompetence to creep in. Domesticated animals are no longer making a living in the world the same way as their wild forbearers did, so they can afford to drop certain software programs without penalty. A cow without a well-developed flight response is in much less danger than a deer. In some cases, breeding practices have deliberately softened up or greatly raised the triggering threshold for an FAP, such as in the case of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, which for the most part eschew fighting.

Cats are an interesting case as they retain most, if not all, of their Four F FAPs. Because of this, many consider them a semi-domesticated or even a non-domesticated species. Dogs, however, are all over the map – breed- and individual-wise – with regard to Four-F-FAP retention. A given dog may or may not be very predatory (feeding), skittish and neophobic (flight), or highly competitive over resources (fight).

Sex matters
On to sex. At last. Reproductive behaviour is, evolutionarily speaking, the biggest and most important of the Four F’s. An animal that lacks super-duper strong courtship and reproductive FAPs doesn’t pass on its ascetic genes. Genes are keen to get passed on and never neglect to install the pass-me-on-now urge, action and wow-was-that-ever-rewarding software in the animals they build. For the most part, domestic animals retain repro FAPs, although technology like AI reduces selection pressure here.

Sexual behaviour in animals has been studied a great deal. Female mounting is not at all unusual, especially during courtship. In one rat study, female mounting of what a girl rat considered a sluggish male was referred to as a “super-solicitational” behaviour. Perhaps the rat equivalent of fishnets and a push-up bra.

In dogs, the courtship and reproduction sequence was studied in considerable detail by Frank Beach, Ariel Merari and Ian Dunbar at the University of California at Berkeley. A female that’s ready to mate might flirt with a male by mounting, clasping and thrusting for a bit, then get off, run away and stop, hopefully with a super-solicited male in hot pursuit, not to mention oriented at the operative end of the female.

I don’t mean to suggest that your dog is, uh, loose, primarily because in play all manner of Four F FAPs are expressed in a giant jumble. In fact, the leading interpretation of why animals play in the first place is that they are rehearsing key FAPs. Dog play consists of chasing (feeding FAP by the chaser, flight FAP by the chasee); play biting (fight and feeding); wrestling, body slamming and pinning (fight and feeding); and courtship and copulatory behaviours such as pawing, mounting, clasping and thrusting. These are punctuated by meta-signals such as play-bows, bouncy movements and grinning play faces, which signal the playful intent of the F’s that precede and follow. And note, all sexes might mount other sexes: it’s play.

So, when you say she’s “playing well,” I presume you mean she’s biting, chasing, slamming and wrestling with other dogs. I am wholly fascinated by the sheer number of dog owners out there who find these behaviours non-obnoxious but consider sex play across the line or, amazingly, not about sex at all! At any dog park you’ll see owners continually and automatically defaulting to a non-sexual explanation for mounting, notably our old favourite, dominance. Now, I’m no shrink but unless dogs are way more into S & M than anybody has reckoned, when an animal mounts and thrusts, I think we need to rule out sex before entertaining other interpretations. In other words, when an animal does the granddaddy of all FAPs during play, mightn’t it be play sex, just like play fighting, play predation and play fleeing? Bottom line: She is also playing well when she mounts!

I am not sure whether the abstemious streak in North American culture whirls us, like a centrifuge, away from the S word when we see copulatory behaviours during play, or whether we’re so dominance-obsessed we co-opt nookie-nookie into some sort of power play. In any case, if you would like less of it, provide a non-violent consequence, such as a time out, whenever she does it. It could be two minutes outside the play area, or you could march her back to the car and take her straight home.

If, on the other hand, you think you might consider allowing her to do it during play, perform a consent test. If you suspect at any time that her partner may not be consenting, pull her off for a moment. Does the mountee grab this opportunity to get away? Does he or she hang out nearby? Or does he or she solicit play from your dog? This consent test works for pinning, wrestling, chasing and other behaviours where there is any doubt about whether both dogs are enjoying the action.

The consent of both dog owners is also important. Although I’ve poked fun at some of the Puritanical motives that may be driving us 180° away from interpretations of mounting that involve sex, no owner at a dog park should be bullied by other owners, however well-meaning, into allowing some activity with which they are uncomfortable, including mounting. If everyone passes the consent test, the dogs can proceed.

By Jean Donaldson
Canadian Jean Donaldson is the founder of the San Francisco SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers. Her books include The Culture Clash, Dogs Are From Neptune and MINE! A Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs


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## lcy_pt

Sheri said:


> I don't like the humping either, *and whenever Tucker tries it with the cat I stop it.* It only takes a verbal "No" or "Stop that" and he moves on to just wrestling with her. I find it embarrassing, also.


Sheri! I almost spit my tea out!!


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## gelbergirl

sounds like your female Holly is healthy and developing normally


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## alicelc

Julie said:


> I think it's a habit that you either allow or you correct early on depending on your comfort level.
> 
> As innocent and funny as it may appear as a puppy it's not gonna be cute if you have house guests over and your dog takes a liking to the preachers leg.
> 
> I would NEVER allow my dogs to do this and no dog will ever hump me. I had one try it at the vet's while I was working.....lets just say....he *tried it once*.


Oh, I wouldn't want my puppy to be humping guests ... or anything. I too also find it embarrassing.
My brother was babysitting a friend's Chihuahua (something he shouldn't have done because he has never taken care of a dog; he would scold it for eliminating in the house, use crate as punishment and let the dog run around the house while he's on the computer...), the Chihuahua would hump this moose toy he has...I was..um, speechless? I don't really want to see my puppy doing that...

I've read that loud sounds may discourage the behaviour (coins in a can) but you'd have to shake the can without the puppy noticing it was you. That way, the puppy will think that when they do the humping, this startling sound will sound.


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## Julie

That's a good idea (the coins in a can) Alice. I would always use a verbal correction myself....but the can doesn't seem like a bad idea to me along with the verbal correction. I have never used the can method myself on anything.....but I have heard of it...and it seemed to be successful in some areas of training...I'm just not sure whether a humping issue was one of them.


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## karin117

I am not a fan of the scare sounds..I think that make stress...
As I said before...this is a behavior she have NON sexual at this age...it is just at her "reportorar"...and it come out now when she is a it stressed because she have changed home. Just call her and talk to her...distract her...She is a very, very small puppy...you do not need any supply to make her listend to you...Use your voice, happy....She will soon stop humping and that mean she have less stress in her body...and that she is adjusting to your home...


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## Julie

Dave-If your article is true (and I don't believe so) then most all dogs are gay! Males humping males isn't mother nature......a male humps a male for dominance...not to get his jollies off. 

You need to watch more Cesar Milan...and so does the author of your article.ound:


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## HavaneseSoon

Dexter did the same thing with his favorite toy when we held the toy just right, so we quit holding the toy. Dexter was only maybe 12 weeks old at the time. Dexter still loves this toy (a fox without stuffing). He has never tried to hump anything else besides that favorite toy.


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## Wildflower

Thank you so much everybody for the replies! Glad to know Holly isn't an oddball!  

We took the toy (aka the Humpback Cow) away from the general box of toys and occasionally will put it down again. She gets super excited when the cow returns but if she tries to hump it, we tell her NO and take it away. 

Seems like we're saying NO more often these days! She seems to get the idea when we say that and we usually praise her for stopping. The other day she was very aggressively trying to jump onto the couch and I got her to stop -- and she hasn't tried since! I was so happy with myself. haha!


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## Wildflower

Leslie said:


> Anybody remember this picture of Spunky? He was 10 wks. old and this is what he did the first time he met 3 year old Rascal ound:


That photo is hilarious!!


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## Wildflower

LOL! Mojo obviously not scared of much here!



Mojo's Mom said:


> Mojo started humping almost as soon as we got him, at nine weeks. Here is a photo of him at about 14 weeks, making his best effort to hump a 90 pound lab:
> 
> View attachment 28301
> 
> 
> He used to have a stuffed "hump dog". After a couple of occasions AFTER his neuter when he got so carried away that the red rocket was fully out with the lock part all swollen up and all of it getting dehydrated....we took the hump dog away. I have to say, we were quite surprised at how well-endowed the little guys are...I think my husband was a little jealous, in terms of "rocket" size to body size ratio.
> 
> Mojo will try to hump me when he's demanding my attention sometimes, but I don't allow this.


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## davetgabby

Julie said:


> Dave-If your article is true (and I don't believe so) then most all dogs are gay! Males humping males isn't mother nature......a male humps a male for dominance...not to get his jollies off.
> 
> You need to watch more Cesar Milan...and so does the author of your article.ound:


Why then Julie , do dogs willfully take turns mounting each other.? If one dog was trying to dominate another dog , he wouldn't allow the other dog to mount him. ??/ Jean Donaldson and others know far more about this than Cesar Millan. Cesar has alot of followers but nearly all respected Behaviourists dissagree with just about everything he says. If you would like some articles regarding this ,I can post their links. ? Julie ,have ever seen cows mounting cows. ? I guess they are gay too?


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## Julie

It's not about sex Dave in most circumstances...it's just not.

If a large dog tries to jump up and mount a person,you think that is about sex? That's absolutely ridiculous. Mother Nature doesn't make dogs try to breed humans.

You may not be a fan of Cesar and quite frankly it doesn't matter to me..but to be as closed minded to dog physcology and against Cesar is disturbing since you seem to post all these articles and think you know everything about everything. What happened to being objective? 

By the way---I grew up on a farm with cows,horses,pigs,sheep,and the like. I think I know a bit about farms and animals...but it is likely you'll know more(just guessing here)

Ever see a bison on tv (2 males) fighting and humping for dominance over the other one? That's dominance and winner determines who breeds the females.


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## good buddy

davetgabby said:


> Why then Julie , do dogs willfully take turns mounting each other.? If one dog was trying to dominate another dog , he wouldn't allow the other dog to mount him. ??/ Jean Donaldson and others know far more about this than Cesar Millan. Cesar has alot of followers but nearly all respected Behaviourists dissagree with just about everything he says. If you would like some articles regarding this ,I can post their links. ? Julie ,have ever seen cows mounting cows. ? I guess they are gay too?


Dave, Maybe you guys should take this dissagreement elsewhere? Like maybe start a thread about the different behaviorists or even a poll to see who follows who?


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## davetgabby

Julie said:


> It's not about sex Dave in most circumstances...it's just not.
> 
> If a large dog tries to jump up and mount a person,you think that is about sex? That's absolutely ridiculous. Mother Nature doesn't make dogs try to breed humans.
> 
> You may not be a fan of Cesar and quite frankly it doesn't matter to me..but to be as closed minded to dog physcology and against Cesar is disturbing since you seem to post all these articles and think you know everything about everything. What happened to being objective?
> 
> By the way---I grew up on a farm with cows,horses,pigs,sheep,and the like. I think I know a bit about farms and animals...but it is likely you'll know more(just guessing here)
> 
> Ever see a bison on tv (2 males) fighting and humping for dominance over the other one? That's dominance and winner determines who breeds the females.


Julie this has nothing to do with me knowing more than you. You are taking this personally now. Yes this is my opinion, and I base it on all the articles and studies that are out there. The "DOMINANCE THEORY" (as professed by Cesar ) has been debunked by countless professsionals that have studied learning theory and dog behavior far more than Cesar. I respect your opinion Julie , I just disagree with it. Read some of these articles and then see what you think.?

1. http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm
2. http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/d...-should-win-gutsiest-veterinary-document-year
3. http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/macho-myth 
4, http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/social-hierarchies
5, http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/defusing-dominance
6, http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/alpha-fallacy
7, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090521112711.htm
8. http://www.esquire.com/features/ESQ1006-ESQ100_20-21.FINAL.rev_1
9, http://www.askdryin.com/dominanceindogs.php
10 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tag/dog-dominance
11 http://www.nonlineardogs.com/index.html
12 http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/whisperer.html
13 http://dogpublic.com/articles/article.aspx?t=training411&sid=14&pid=1640
14 http://www.showdogs.co.za/articles/wag_the_dog/dominance.htm
15 http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance statement.pdf
16 http://www.urbandawgs.com/divided_profession.html
17 http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/current/research/030509.html
18 http://www.urbandawgs.com/luescher_millan.html
19 http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/index.html
20 http://www.bris.ac.uk/news/2009/6361.html
21 http://www.ipdta.org/#The_Dominance_Theory
22 http://www.4pawsu.com/pmdominance.htm
23 http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/dominance.htm
24
25 http://www.apdt.com/about/ps/dominance.aspx
26 http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose/dominancemyths.aspx
27 http://dog-training.suite101.com/article.cfm/debunking_the_dominance_theory_in_dogs
28 http://www.journalvetbehavior.com/article/S1558-7878(08)00115-9
29 http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php
30 http://k9domain.org/alpha_theory.aspx
31 http://apromisepluskennels.com/21401/33201.html


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## Lily's mom

Lily likes her soft blanket. She has done this off and on for a year. I don't worry about it at all. Just another HAV little trait!


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## Julie

Somehow I just knew you had to post a ton of links because buddy----you know everything about everything! Good for you!:thumb:


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## krandall

Julie said:


> Dave-If your article is true (and I don't believe so) then most all dogs are gay! Males humping males isn't mother nature......a male humps a male for dominance...not to get his jollies off.
> 
> You need to watch more Cesar Milan...and so does the author of your article.ound:


It does happen in nature all the time - in many species. Cows mount other cows, steers mount other steers and bull calves mount other bull calves. Same is true with horses, male, female or gelding. (female horses are rarely "spayed" because of the danger of abdominal surgery in a horse) I can't say that I've ever seen a cat mount for anything other than the sex act, but cats are pretty solitary creatures except during sex. But I once saw an English Mastiff "mounting" a cat. THAT was pretty funny. he was holding the cat down with his mouth while the back end was working away 40 feet back.:laugh:

Same-sex sexual behavior has been documented widely in MANY species.


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## davetgabby

Julie said:


> Somehow I just knew you had to post a ton of links because buddy----you know everything about everything! Good for you!:thumb:


Julie like I said , these are not just my opinions. You can believe what you want. I am just putting them out there for all to see. And you can believe them or not. But to criticize me for trying to bring them forward to let people make their own decisions it not fair, simply because you don't believe in them.


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## Julie

You are actually telling this lady of a 10 week old pup that her female puppy wants to have sex with a stuffed animal? That her puppy is thinking about sex and reproducing with a stuffed animal at 10 weeks of age? That is just ridiculous! Use some common sense.....

If you actually read my words.....I say in most circumstances it is not about sex. Dominance plays a huge role in animals...the biggest,the toughest are the ones who reproduce. It's in every wild animal out there. They fight,they hump,they dominant each other---the biggest,toughest is the winner and the one who breeds all the females.

I'm not an expert--but telling this lady her pup wants to have sex with her stuffed toy is absurd in my opinion. She brought a pup into a new environment that she is adjusting to and she is getting used to it and chances are was a more dominant pup in the litter.

A dog's sense of smell is so strong that I highly doubt a male dog wouldn't know the difference in smell between another male and a female. Dogs are not stupid. They know a female when they smell one....that's the one they pursue to have sex with.

Karen---I had horses growing up too-


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## Julie

davetgabby said:


> Julie like I said , these are not just my opinions. You can believe what you want. I am just putting them out there for all to see. And you can believe them or not. But to criticize me for trying to bring them forward to let people make their own decisions it not fair, simply because you don't believe in them.


I will absolutely believe what I choose to and you can do the same too.:thumb:

Criticize? Oh I don't think so.......I'm just putting my opinion out there too.eace:


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## davetgabby

Julie said:


> You are actually telling this lady of a 10 week old pup that her female puppy wants to have sex with a stuffed animal? That her puppy is thinking about sex and reproducing with a stuffed animal at 10 weeks of age? That is just ridiculous! Use some common sense.....
> 
> If you actually read my words.....I say in most circumstances it is not about sex. Dominance plays a huge role in animals...the biggest,the toughest are the ones who reproduce. It's in every wild animal out there. They fight,they hump,they dominant each other---the biggest,toughest is the winner and the one who breeds all the females.
> 
> I'm not an expert--but telling this lady her pup wants to have sex with her stuffed toy is absurd in my opinion. She brought a pup into a new environment that she is adjusting to and she is getting used to it and chances are was a more dominant pup in the litter.
> 
> A dog's sense of smell is so strong that I highly doubt a male dog wouldn't know the difference in smell between another male and a female. Dogs are not stupid. They know a female when they smell one....that's the one they pursue to have sex with.
> 
> Karen---I had horses growing up too-


Julie , read the article a little closer. What Jean is saying is that mounting is a pre wired FAP. It is a form of play or rehearsal. Anything can trigger this response. Why then would a dog want to "dominate" an inanimate object? It's a form of play.


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## Julie

I *read* your post---I'm not quite as dumb as you would probably like me to be...none the less-I've been busy reading the Cesar Bashing links you posted and true to form all the Ian Dunbar rave reviews. Isn't he just the bomb? Just like you,I believe he thinks he knows everything about everything.:thumb: Good for you both!:thumb:


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## davetgabby

Julie said:


> I *read* your post---I'm not quite as dumb as you would probably like me to be...none the less-I've been busy reading the Cesar Bashing links you posted and true to form all the Ian Dunbar rave reviews. Isn't he just the bomb? Just like you,I believe he thinks he knows everything about everything.:thumb: Good for you both!:thumb:


Julie , the only bashing here is by you. These are not just Ian' s views , they are by numerous respected dog professionals.


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## Julie

That's not bashing------oh come on------it's a compliment!


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## SMARTY

Carolyn, my advice is to make sure your puppy is getting plenty of exercise. I would stop the humping by taking away the toy and getting her mind on something else. Don’t punish her, play with her instead, not as a reward for humping but to give her an energy outlet. I would not want this to become a habit and it could. 

Galen tired to hump Smarty a few times and it took all of two seconds for Smarty to let her know this was totally unacceptable behavior. We saw it maybe 4 or 5 times with the same ending. I have never had a dog that humped anything but a male in the act of breeding. 

Redirect her energy.


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## SMARTY

Julie and Dave, take it somewhere else. This new member does not need all this.


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## good buddy

davetgabby said:


> It's a form of play.


Then why don't you just say it's a form of play instead of saying it's sex?


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## krandall

Julie said:


> Karen---I had horses growing up too-


Then you know this type of behavior is common in many species, and is in no way "unnatural". That was my only point.

As far as the dominant behavior vs. sexual behavior thing is concerned, I think it can be either or neither... With this small puppy, it could be self-comforting behavior in an over-stimulating new environment (my bet) OR it could be an early version of "playing doctor."<g>

Human kids do this behavior too... anyone who has raised little boys will tell you the number of times they need to be reminded to keep their hands out of their diaper. ;-) THAT certainly isn't dominant behavior, but it's not really "sexual" behavior in the way adults mean it. It feels good, it's comforting, so the child does it.

Little kids like to explore their own bodies and those of others, if left to their own devices. WE teach them that this is "not OK" based on our cultural and moral beliefs. I think we need to draw the line for our animals the same way.

I have trained and shown a number of stallions, and they learned very early that that behavior was for the breeding shed ONLY. When they were in public, under saddle or in hand, the "equipment" was to be kept neatly tucked away, and "no talking" to the girls, either.:biggrin1: People were often surprised to look between the legs of one of these gentlemen and realize that they were intact. But they were taught acceptable behavior from a young age so it was no big deal. You (and, if you grew up around horses, I'm sure you'll agree) HAVE to instill good behavior in a stallion if he is going to ever go off the breeding farm. He is otherwise just too dangerous to everyone around him.

The danger is less with most dog breeds, just because they are smaller, and even less with a little breed like Havs. But I think, as you do, that they can and should, still be taught to behave in a socially acceptable way. I agree with you, I don't like humping... if only because the general public doesn't understand it.

The couple of toys Kodi used to hump have been placed in the "supervised play only" category. He learned VERY quickly that humping family members wasn't acceptable, and never even tries now. He does, occasionally (and I haven't yet figured out why some people trigger this response and others don't) try to hump the leg of guests in the house. I've found that the best way to get him to completely give up the idea is to get that person to give him a sharp verbal "NO!" along with physically pushing him off. Once he has tried it with a person, he usually won't repeat it, even on a subsequent visit, as long as they were firm the first time. If he gets mixed messages (me correcting him, and the person he's doing it to giggling, as sometimes happens with girl friends of my teenage sons) I have to watch him like a hawk or he's after the person again. He's still only 9 months, so I'm pretty confident that eventually he will learn to completely curb this behavior.


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## Jammies

*I don't consider this humping, but maybe it is, Jammies will be playing with one of her bigger toys and after awhile sit on it and then growl like it is attacking her then she attacks it. I just always thought it was cute and she was playing with it. I'm not going to stop her. She has never humped a person or our sheltie, just a couple of her toys that attack her!*


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## Julie

SMARTY said:


> Julie and Dave, take it somewhere else. This new member does not need all this.


Don't worry about it Sandi. We may disagree,but it is what it is. If a difference of opinion and a debate is bad on the forum....many people wouldn't be here.


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## Mojo's Mom

Wow! I would have thought Julie was a troll, if not for seeing her "join date", because I've never seen anyone on this forum flame someone like she is flaming Dave here!

It is true that most animal behavioralists, and here I am talking about people with extensive educational backgrounds including extensive field research done according to scientific methods, take a dim view of Cesar Millan and his techniques. Obviously the man is successful, at least in the short term, in changing the behavior of some dogs. But dominance theory is considered antiquated and flawed.

Of course mounting is sexual. And sexual behaviors, like predatory behaviors and defensive behaviors, and ritualized in play. Take my puppy and his girlfriend Nellie: They wrestle, and she is fully on top of him, "biting" at his face. Is she being dominant? Should she be corrected? Before you can decide, they are reversed, and he is the "dominant" one. They will repeat this for hours. He will mount her, she will mount him, and neither is being dominant, neither minds what the other does. They stalk each other, they pounce on each other, and through it all they make almost no sound. 

Why does it make sense to interpret mounting alone, out of all other natural behaviors, as a dominance behavior? When Mojo attempts to mount me, or grabs my pants leg with his teeth, he's not being dominant, he just wants my attention and wants to play with me. I don't like either behavior, so I correct or redirect, but I don't decide my sweet little puppy who was just a while ago rolling onto his back for me to rub his tummy is now suddenly trying to dominate me. 

Dave, thank you for always providing wonderful educational references. How much better off we would be if everyone inspired their dogs to find desirable behaviors more attractive than undesirable behaviors, instead of trying to dominate their dogs.


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## Mojo's Mom

Julie said:


> Don't worry about it Sandi. We may disagree,but it is what it is. If a difference of opinion and a debate is bad on the forum....many people wouldn't be here.


Difference of opinion and debate are good. Flaming people and making snide remarks are not debate. You should apologize.


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## HavaneseSoon

My observations at the dog park..... There is a small mature intact male chihuahua that loves to mount a particular small (fixed) female dachshund about 3-4 months old .......... it happens all the time.... every time they get together. 

The dachshund loves the attention because the dachshund goes back to the chihuahua for more attention after the Chihauhua's owner tries to break it up. You would say that the dachshund is a consenting playmate. 

The behavior bothers me because the chichauhua is constantly humping the dachshund when they should be running or chasing or playing with each other. 

I would not put up with this behavior if the chihauhua was humping Dexter. My opinion... I would redirect the behavior and if the dog would not leave Dexter alone, then we would leave the park. In society, humping is NOT, in my opinion..... an acceptable behavior unless it is for breeding and dogs in heat. 

I have also been in the small dog park where a dog entered the park (larger dog that DID NOT BELONG in the small dog park..... and came over to me and tried to hump my leg (Humping on Me is NOT acceptable). 

I do not want to get in the middle of an argument, but, I will listen to all sides of research and decide for myself what is acceptable for me and what I will teach. 

That being said, I do love to hear all sides of opinions.


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## Julie

Mojo's Mom said:


> Wow! I would have thought Julie was a troll, if not for seeing her "join date", because I've never seen anyone on this forum flame someone like she is flaming Dave here!
> 
> I'm sorry you feel that way enough to call me a troll. I was not flaming Dave or at least that was not my intention. I just simply have a different view then he does. That's it--nothing more/nothing less. I think when you have a different view you should be allowed to say it,just as Dave posted all his links/views.


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## Julie

Mojo's Mom said:


> Difference of opinion and debate are good. Flaming people and making snide remarks are not debate. You should apologize.


Maybe it's the way you are reading my remarks? I was not being snide...I'm sorry you took it that way.

If Sandi was offended by my reply then I will formally say "I'm sorry Sandi"...I was not meaning to be "snide" as Mojo's Mom thinks it was.

Debate and difference of opinions is a good thing. It doesn't matter whether people believe in Cesar or Ian Dunbar or any of the other trainers and professionals out there...you have to learn to be open to any and all views and apply the ones you think work best for you.I happen to believe in many different professionals as not one suits every situation.


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## SMARTY

Julie said:


> If Sandi was offended by my reply then I will formally say "I'm sorry Sandi"...I was not meaning to be "snide" as Mojo's Mom thinks it was.


I thought it was getting past the difference of opinion or I would not have posted any thing.

Our new members don't need some of the debates that seem to be happening more and more on the forum.


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## krandall

Jammies said:


> *I don't consider this humping, but maybe it is, Jammies will be playing with one of her bigger toys and after awhile sit on it and then growl like it is attacking her then she attacks it. I just always thought it was cute and she was playing with it. I'm not going to stop her. She has never humped a person or our sheltie, just a couple of her toys that attack her!*


I don't think Jammies is humping, based on that description. Once you've seen humping it's unmistakable... which, I think, is why people get so turned off by it.<g>


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## TheVintageVamp

Slowly backing out of the room and wondering what happened to the very pleasant and informative community I joined and happily participated in up until recently. I understand where things have become a bit heated due to people feeling strongly on some of the puppy mill/poor breeder threads, but this? Color me bewildered by this turn of events.:redface:


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## krandall

*Cesar*



Julie said:


> It doesn't matter whether people believe in Cesar or Ian Dunbar or any of the other trainers and professionals out there...you have to learn to be open to any and all views and apply the ones you think work best for you.I happen to believe in many different professionals as not one suits every situation.


On this, I agree with you whole-heartedly. I watch The Dog Whisperer, and what I take most from it is that the man has an innate ability to work with dogs that may be hard to teach to other people. I think it's also easy for people to mis-use some of his techniques, to the dog's detriment. I also know with certainty that even though he often gets the result he is looking for, his explanations in terms of "why" and animal behavior sometimes have no basis in modern science.

That all said, I've watched the man through a number of seasons now, and I've seen HIM mature and learn. He is not the same dog trainer he was the first season (which is when he turned so many positive dog trainers off that they are completely unable to see any good in him even now)

In more recent episodes I've seen him work very kindly and gently with nervous, fearful dogs. And I see him, more often than not, pointing out that there isn't really a "dog problem" in a segment, but a "people problem".

In terms of his more "spectacular" big, aggressive dog segments, he is often working with dogs that other trainers have totally given up on; dogs who stand to really hurt someone if something drastic isn't done. We may wish there were another way to get through to these reactive dogs, but look at how many of them are put to death (and cause major harm to people and other dogs) each year. I think it is these segments that have caused him the greatest amount of negative press, and rightly so. Dogs like this CANNOT be "rehabilitated" quickly, and often not ever, particularly if left with the people who caused the problem. In recent episodes, HE seems to have become more aware of this too, and I've seen several instances where he has traded a more stable dog for the "red zone" dog, and taken that "red zone" dog back to work with in his pack, for as long as it takes.

The problem comes when people either idolize him or demonize him. He doesn't deserve either. He's just a guy who happens to have a very good "feel" for dogs, and had some really lucky breaks in terms of who he got to know.

I like watching the show. I like,especially, not listening to what he's telling people to do, but watching HIS body language around a dog. Often he doesn't need to even get near the dog to be able to influence it into a calmer, more receptive state. To me, that is the IMPORTANT message of the show. (besides the obvious that he states repeatedly: dogs need exercise, discipline AND affection)

I DON'T think that much of what he suggests on the show is particularly useful in training puppies the RIGHT way from the beginning; particularly puppies of a small "soft" breed like Havs. I was pretty disappointed in his recent show on raising puppies. Yes, he was able to raise a group of adorable puppies of several breeds into well-balanced young adult dogs, but he did it with a pack of 50 other adult "role model" dogs to help him. Not very useful for most of us.<g> I don't think there was much in that program for ANYONE who was starting with a young puppy, except his choice of medium energy puppies or letting a good breeder choose for him. (THAT was good advice )

I've read, and like a lot of what Ian Dunbar has written, and I like a lot of what he has to say, and I will continue to watch the Dog Whisperer. I will also continue to try to learn all I can from other writers, and most of all from the trainers at my training center, who can help me with a problem "in the moment".

As far as I am concerned, and to quote you again:



Julie said:


> you have to learn to be open to any and all views and apply the ones you think work best for you.


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## krandall

TheVintageVamp said:


> Slowly backing out of the room and wondering what happened to the very pleasant and informative community I joined and happily participated in up until recently. I understand where things have become a bit heated due to people feeling strongly on some of the puppy mill/poor breeder threads, but this? Color me bewildered by this turn of events.:redface:


I'm chalking it up to Julie having a hard day. She's usually one of the reliable voices of reason on the forum.


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## Thumper

I am one of the people on here with a humping female that humps her Snuggle bear.

As irony would have it, she's humping snuggles right now, this started a long time ago and was more funny at first because she'd beat up the bear first, fling him around and suck on his arm and then throw him off the bed a few times (foreplay) and then hump it. She's very ritualistic about it and does it after dinner every night, will suck on his armpit for 15 minutes first, beat him up and then hump him. ound:

And YES, I have been embarrassed because she will do it in front of company and guests and fortunately, they all think she's so cute they still talk to us and haven't written us off as friends because of it, course, she gets teased alot for being a lesbian because she isnt' really nice to boy dogs..so Im thinking she may be more into girls or snuggle bears. ound:

But to answer the Original post, if you want it to stop, you better stop it now because it would be virtually impossible for her to lose her bear now, she's so attached to the thing I have to take it to work with us and on vacations, she loves that darn bear and its the first thing she goes to find when we get home from being out, or on a walk to make sure He's still here

Is humping a toy normal? Ehh...I doubt it normal, but I do have an abnormal dog that humps a toy  so they do exist.

I haven't a clue whether its sexual or dominance, I've always thought it was sexual from watching the foreplay part, but it could all be just play, dunno...she's a dog and hasn't told me why she does it. Darnit.


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## Thumper

Julie is definitely not a troll and I didn't think the conversation was flameful, just more of a spirited discussion of dog psychology and theory.

We still are a loving, fun, warm community that embraces knowledge and learning. Its okay to have different viewpoints, thats just life and we are always learning and evolving

XO~


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## ama0722

My first answer would be don't pick the 10 week old puppy that is humping the toy but that's too late. I made that mistake once and am still paying for it with Isabelle  Whether it be I own the most dominant or horny maltese on the block- she is all mine. She doesn't stop at toys, toy dogs, she goes for labs as well! I use Isabelle leave it which works some of the time (like most of the Belle commands!)

As to what works for you- I don't agree with one trainer 100% of the time and what works for one dog doesn't work for the others- at least in mi casa.


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## Havtahava

Back to the OP... and quoting a reply that resounded with the dog behavioral experts:



Mojo's Mom said:


> Of course mounting is sexual. And sexual behaviors, like predatory behaviors and defensive behaviors, and ritualized in play.


Exactly. Even though these are domesticated animals that are man-made (meaning these are not wild dogs and would not survive in the wild), the need to breed and sexual tendencies are still in them. Even human babies can be found fondeling themselves. They are not sexually active, but they are still sexual beings. Rubbing and feeling can feel good. Just like you wouldn't punish a baby, I think it is a bad idea to scare or startle a puppy that is rubbing itself. Instead, redirect him/her.

(By the way, even though there seems to be a little aversion to links in this topic, this is a good one about "homosexuality" in dogs: 
http://www.worldjustice.org/taj/gay-animals.html )


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## davetgabby

Havtahava said:


> Back to the OP... and quoting a reply that resounded with the dog behavioral experts:
> 
> Exactly. Even though these are domesticated animals that are man-made (meaning these are not wild dogs and would not survive in the wild), the need to breed and sexual tendencies are still in them. Even human babies can be found fondeling themselves. They are not sexually active, but they are still sexual beings. Rubbing and feeling can feel good. Just like you wouldn't punish a baby, I think it is a bad idea to scare or startle a puppy that is rubbing itself. Instead, redirect him/her.
> 
> (By the way, even though there seems to be a little aversion to links in this topic, this is a good one about "homosexuality" in dogs:
> http://www.worldjustice.org/taj/gay-animals.html )


Thanks for that article Kimberly, very interesting.


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## Mojo's Mom

Julie said:


> Somehow I just knew you had to post a ton of links because buddy----you know everything about everything! Good for you!:thumb:





Thumperlove said:


> Julie is definitely not a troll and I didn't think the conversation was flameful, just more of a spirited discussion of dog psychology and theory.


Thumperlove, you really think Julie's quote above is not a flame?! It's sarcastic and nasty, at minimum, and hardly "spirited discussion". "You know everything about everything" is not discussion, it's a mean tempered response from someone who has lost their temper and their head.


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