# Don't do what I did !



## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

It is very hard to admit that I failed my sweet Zoey. I had tried brushing her teeth at a young age and then just gave up. I noticed bad breath about six months ago and looked at her mouth. I think I even wrote and asked if I could get the tarter off myself. I spent about a week being concerned then just pushed it away. I have a feeling it was already to late by that point. I have learned that bones and chew toys do not clean a small breeds teeth! I'm sure some of it is hereditary and genetic.Just like us humans who some have natural good teeth. About a mo ago I noticed her not eating her treats as fast as maddie. But she does gobble her food .
The other night she started licking her bottom and I noticed it really red and swollen. Before the other night she had really bad poops for about a month and I noticed her bottom seeming a bit hard . So I bought some canned food and a dry with more fiber in it. She seemed better and her poops got back to normal. 
I took her to the Vet Tuesday morning. The vet said her bottom was very sore looking and it was her anal glands. He did a physical and got to her mouth and just said oh my. He showed me her back tooth just practically hanging it was so loose. He then found her front teeth to be very loose also. He said its a real problem with small breed dogs and I should have been brushing her teeth every day .A little dog cant just chew on a bone like a large dog. I told him I know people that feed Raw and their dogs don't have a problem. He said he would like to see their mouths before he could agree with that.
Anyway I still haven't looked all the way in to her mouth because she is sore. The vet said he pulled a bunch of teeth told me what he left but I was in shock. I still am but I'm getting better. 
I writing this to try to educate new puppy owners and anyone else who doesn't brush their Havanese teeth. 
She tore some during her anal extraction. He said she was very bad and under was very hard. So she had to come home with a cone on her head. First she got her paw stuck in it. Then she took her paw and just pulled it off. Last night she was so sweet and came to give me my usual kiss and I got woken up with plastic hitting my face.
I'm now worried as to why she got so bad. We have never had a problem and has never had to be extracted before. I'm just going to try a second new food and also add pumpkin. Cross your fingers that her bottom heals and stays that way.Because it can mean other problems too.


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## tom.lockhart (Jul 3, 2014)

Oh wow! Wishing you lots and lots of luck!

I am bringing a pup home on Monday and will head your advice, thank you for sharing!


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## whimsy (Apr 3, 2010)

awww I'm so sorry  hope Zoey is feeling better soon!


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

I hope Zoey feels better real soon. Thank you so much for sharing this. It is so easy to skip brushing our dogs teeth when we get busy with other things, especially if they are not good about letting you do it. I for one am going to make a better effort to do it every day now.


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## BFrancs (May 17, 2012)

Aww poor baby. I hope Zoey feels better soon. She is sweet by giving you a kiss and probably saying "its okay mommy". Thanks for the reminder - I have to admit, Im not on top of it as I should be. Your post made me go brush their teeth, Hunter is the only one that actually likes it. The other three its a struggle, Rox only acts like she likes b/c she sees Hunter doing it. Vino is the same way, he loves licking their mouths while Im trying to brush them but as soon as he sees its his turn, he'll sit and take it but fights it. Canela just RUNS away; she has a tiny mouth compare to Vino. I'm actually thinking of getting a kids electric tooth brush for them, but not sure. Canela has a vet appt tomorrow, I wonder what he will say about her teeth.


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## sandypaws (Aug 8, 2012)

Oh, Suzi, i'm so sorry for poor Zoey. I have made it a point to brush teeth every morning after breakfast and, thus, it becomes routine and something that's expected. I have been fortunate as my dogs have tolerated and even learned to like it.

I know you feel guilty, but you can move on from here and do what's needed going forward and feel good that you have helped others with your "confession". Hope Zoey feels better real soon.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

thanks for the reminder Suzi, So true , small dogs are more prone, and it can be genetic. 70 per cent or something like that, have tartar issues over the age of three I believe are the stats for all dog. I like these words ....
" I want to feed a home made,cooked diet – but don’t we need kibble to clean teeth?

In a word, no. You need raw bones and/or a good toothbrush and a bit of discipline to brush regularly. Some dogs will tend to get plaque more readily than others; some can’t tolerate raw bones, some will maintain a clean healthy mouth on a raw diet with little effort from their guardians. And no question, maintaining good oral hygiene is critically important for systemic, longterm health. but kibble won’t do it – in fact, it’s the worst thing you can feed for healthy teeth and gums. This is a huge myth. Feed raw, safe bones, brush, use a balanced raw diet where appropriate. Kibble fed dogs have the worst oral hygiene I’ve seen" ... The Possible Canine
for us brushing DAILY is a must.


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## tom.lockhart (Jul 3, 2014)

Does anyone have a particular brush they would recommend?


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

I'm going to look in her mouth today and count how many are left. She wants to play ball but I think I'll wait a few more days. she did yawn and I saw two bottom canines and about for or five back teeth. 
Dave dint you think its strange that after all these years not having any anal gland problems. She had been on the same food for 5 mo. I switched because she didn't do well on Acanna here stools were to soft. This food was very simple but now were trying First Mate only because my food store gave me like five samples and both Zoey and Maddie choice that one. Thay turned their nose to four out of five.I think its made in Canada!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

tom.lockhart said:


> Does anyone have a particular brush they would recommend?


I just use the little dog tooth brushes they sell at Petco. They also sell little terrycloth finger covers that you can use instead of a brush. Some dogs tolerate these better. Kodi doesn't mind, so I just use the brush.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> I'm going to look in her mouth today and count how many are left. She wants to play ball but I think I'll wait a few more days. she did yawn and I saw two bottom canines and about for or five back teeth.
> Dave dint you think its strange that after all these years not having any anal gland problems. She had been on the same food for 5 mo. I switched because she didn't do well on Acanna here stools were to soft. This food was very simple but now were trying First Mate only because my food store gave me like five samples and both Zoey and Maddie choice that one. Thay turned their nose to four out of five.I think its made in Canada!


Kodi has had just one time having trouble with his anal glands... A little over a year ago. My vet told me that unless the dog has poorly shaped anal glands that won't empty themselves, (unlikely with Zoey, since she hasn't had a problem until now) anal gland problems are often a sign that they are allergic to something.

In Kodi's case, he was clearly having a problem with something in the wet grass, because he was also licking his feet all the time. Fortunately, we seem to have the allergy problem under control this year, and (knock on wood!) no anal gland problems and no foot licking!


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## Cyber Chulo (Jul 27, 2012)

Hey Suzi. How old is Zoey? Only because I also haven't been brushing Ratchet's teeth but I've been adding a product called Plaque Off for more than a year now. Ratchet is 2 years and having been to the vet recently, he had nothing but high praises for his teeth. I sprinkle it into his food and haven't had a problem at all.


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## Marbel (May 20, 2014)

I need to get on the ball with brushing ... is there a specific toothpaste for pups?


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

I'm going to ask my vet about the plaque stuff. I have no idea what tooth paste. I tried about three different ones when they were puppy's. Its to bad the store don't have samples . Zoey just turned her nose to four out of five different dog foods. I got her to eat a meal just now.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Karen I hope Zoey doesn't have an attitudinal problem. She isn't licking at her paws I'm hoping it was the food. I had switched that was very simple but didn't have a lot of fiber. I would hope the vet would have noticed something worse than her anal glands being compacted or what ever it is called. The internet has other things and allergies is one. I'm glad Kodi was treated right and it's not a reoccurring problem. I think I will try the finger brush seams it would be easier to control while holding a wiggly head. Actually Maddie will be the brat.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Marbel said:


> I need to get on the ball with brushing ... is there a specific toothpaste for pups?


Any enzymatic toothpaste will do. The one I use is Petrodex. There are several flavors. Kodi likes them all.


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## Cyber Chulo (Jul 27, 2012)

Here's some Pics of Ratchet's teeth from using Plaque Off and Ratchet himself!


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Very nice teeth!
Proden plaqueoff animal is an easy way for those dog and cat owners to care for their pet's teeth who don't have the patience or inclination to brush their dog or cat's teeth regularly. The product comes in powdered form and it is simply added on a daily basis to dry or wet food. Dogs and cats like the taste of the small amount that is added. Proden plaqueoff animal does not rely on topical application or friction. The product is ingested and works systemically. The natural compound in the product comes out through the saliva and works to break down the bacterial biofilm that forms on the teeth and gums. This is how the natural bacteria in the mouth take hold onto the teeth and gums, colonizing and creating the oral problems of plaque and tartar, bad breathe and gingivitis. It does not change the ph of the mouth or kill off the normal levels of bacteria. Proden plaqueoff has been proven to reduce plaque and tartar on the teeth and gums, depending on composition, diet and how long it has been there. It then works to prevent bad breath, plaque and tartar from returning. Patients generally begin to see results over a 2-8 week period, and will see further benefits with continued use. Proden plaqueoff animal is made from a specific strain of selected seaweed harvested from above scandinavia. This seaweed has developed a natural defensive mechanism against bacterial biofilm. The product is made only from this seaweed and has no additives or chemicals added. It is human grade and human tested.
Another person likes this tooth paste but it isn't an american product. It has Fluroide and chlorophyll in it. Karen Do you think yours is similar? And would an older dog benefit from fluoride? Her dog loves the meat flavored one.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Here is a picture of the product and the Havanese teeth and gums.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

I just looked up what chlorophyll does.
Chlorophyll only absorbs the bad breath odor and does nothing for the health of the teeth and gums. There are many superior dental products on the market including special chew bones, dental diets, and doggy toothpaste which will actually help address the root cause of the bad breath–plaque and tartar buildup. Even these products do not replace the regular dental care your veterinarian can provide. After all, we brush our teeth and floss twice daily and we still get our teeth cleaned twice yearly! Your pet is no different in their dental needs.
I think I'll buy Karens tooth paste .


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

just to let you know about Plaque Off , here is a previous post by Kimberly re this issue ...

"On Saturday, I was in a seminar with Jean Dodds, DVM all day. Her topics of discussion were thyroid, vaccines and nutrition. When she was on the topic of thyroid, she specifically mentioned that you should not add any kelp to your dog's diet if you feed a commercial product because commerical products already have Iodine in them and kelp will give them way too much iodine, which will suppress thyroid function. Those who do homecooking and raw (non-commercial) should be fine unless you are already adding iodine in another form. Strangely enough, this was the only specific food supplement that she mentioned to avoid in regard to thyroid function."


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Dogs who eat common commercial diets (especially dry food) often already get 3, 4 5 times and more the amount of iodine than the recommended daily allowance, and Plaque-Off adds to that. 
Just as an example, per NRC 2006 guidelines the *weekly* recommended intake of iodine for a 10 pound dog is 645 mcg.

Let's say this dog eats Orijen Adult and needs 3 1/2 cups per week (1/2 cup per day) to maintain a good weight. This amount of dry food already supplies 2,012.5 mcg of iodine, or over 300%.

If you add even just 1/2 scoop of Plaque Off daily to that (200 mcg * 7 = 1,400 mcg), you end up at 3,412.5 mcg, or almost 530%.

The "minerals such as iodine are absorbed from the diet according to need; excess minerals pass straight through" claim is totally ignorant, since if that really were the case, we wouldn't have various toxicities from excess levels, including what Dr. Dodds is referring to 

Sabine


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

According to the Michigan State University Thyroid Database, Havanese have the 2nd highest rate of hypothyroidism of 140 breeds (up to 26% affected


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

http://www.sonrisashavanese.ca/thyroid.html


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I was recommended this product , I use the paste and the water additive. . Yet nothing beats brushing as far as I'm concerned. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=26460 Canadian version concentrate on the outsides of your dog\s mouths.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Dave you are great! Its hard sometimes to find good research and I was wondering about the powdered stuff as far as being okay. I took a picture of your product so I can try to find it. I wounder if the water stuff is okay?


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Oh I just read you use the water one too. I found the tooth past on line for about $14.00 . I think I'm going to try Karens just because the cost is so much more affordable. Or I found this one available here in the states. I think it is about half the price?


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Dave do dogs need any Iodine?


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Suzi said:


> Dave do dogs need any Iodine?


yes, but like my one article says , there's already too much in commercial foods especially kibble. the only time you will add iodine is if you are doing homeprepared or raw recipes, that don't have enough.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Thank you. I wrote my new dog food companey a not but hav't heard back yet. It does list kelp separate from the sodium . I think If I used the powder stuff I would home cook.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> Very nice teeth!
> Proden plaqueoff animal is an easy way for those dog and cat owners to care for their pet's teeth who don't have the patience or inclination to brush their dog or cat's teeth regularly. The product comes in powdered form and it is simply added on a daily basis to dry or wet food. Dogs and cats like the taste of the small amount that is added. Proden plaqueoff animal does not rely on topical application or friction. The product is ingested and works systemically. The natural compound in the product comes out through the saliva and works to break down the bacterial biofilm that forms on the teeth and gums. This is how the natural bacteria in the mouth take hold onto the teeth and gums, colonizing and creating the oral problems of plaque and tartar, bad breathe and gingivitis. It does not change the ph of the mouth or kill off the normal levels of bacteria. Proden plaqueoff has been proven to reduce plaque and tartar on the teeth and gums, depending on composition, diet and how long it has been there. It then works to prevent bad breath, plaque and tartar from returning. Patients generally begin to see results over a 2-8 week period, and will see further benefits with continued use. Proden plaqueoff animal is made from a specific strain of selected seaweed harvested from above scandinavia. This seaweed has developed a natural defensive mechanism against bacterial biofilm. The product is made only from this seaweed and has no additives or chemicals added. It is human grade and human tested.
> Another person likes this tooth paste but it isn't an american product. It has Fluroide and chlorophyll in it. Karen Do you think yours is similar? And would an older dog benefit from fluoride? Her dog loves the meat flavored one.


I'd be VERY careful about a pet tooth paste with fluoride in it. I know that you don't use fluoride tooth paste with babies ans toddlers, because you can't keep them from slallowing it, and it is toxic in more than timy amounts. Dogs definitely swallow their toothpaste.

I use Plaque-off and still brush Kodi's teeth about every other day. He is five and according to the vet, his teeth look great.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

krandall said:


> I'd be VERY careful about a pet tooth paste with fluoride in it. I know that you don't use fluoride tooth paste with babies ans toddlers, because you can't keep them from slallowing it, and it is toxic in more than timy amounts. Dogs definitely swallow their toothpaste.
> 
> I use Plaque-off and still brush Kodi's teeth about every other day. He is five and according to the vet, his teeth look great.


 Kodi has a good Mommy and good genetic background Do you worry about the amount of sodium ? Did you read what Dave had to say? I cant remember what you feed him. I wrote my new dog food company a note about the amount they put in the food but I din't get an answer. Now I'm not sure about buying that food. Its First Mate and the only reason I bought it is that Zoey loved it and would eat for me after her teeth were pulled. She turned her head to four other samples. Now Maddie wont eat. Its been hot here so maybe that's why. Zoey is drinking tuns of water but not Maddie. I keep thinking Maddie is sad because Zoey has a funny thing on her head.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> Kodi has a good Mommy and good genetic background Do you worry about the amount of sodium ? Did you read what Dave had to say? I cant remember what you feed him. I wrote my new dog food company a note about the amount they put in the food but I din't get an answer. Now I'm not sure about buying that food. Its First Mate and the only reason I bought it is that Zoey loved it and would eat for me after her teeth were pulled. She turned her head to four other samples. Now Maddie wont eat. Its been hot here so maybe that's why. Zoey is drinking tuns of water but not Maddie. I keep thinking Maddie is sad because Zoey has a funny thing on her head.


It's not sodium that Dave is concerned about, it's iodine. Everyone has to do what they think is best for their dogs. My breeder recommends it for her puppies, and it certainly doesn't seem to shorten the lives of the dogs in her line, considering the ages of some of them&#8230; and they don't have thyroid problems either. Now that's NOT to say that it might not be a problem in some lines, and depending on what you feed. But it's working for us. There are other choices.

I also bought a set of scaling tools, and Pam showed me how to use them. Kodi has ONE tooth on each side with a crease in the side, that does get some build-up that I can't get off by brushing. Periodically, I GENTLY remove this material by gently scraping with a scaler. I am very careful not to damage his gums when I do this, and he stays very still for me. You couldn't do it on a dog that wiggled.

As I said, with the combination of things I'm doing, so far my vet is very happy with how his mouth looks, and (knock wood) there has been no talk of him needing a veterinary cleaning. His mouth smells good too.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> Kodi has a good Mommy&#8230;<snip> I keep thinking Maddie is sad because Zoey has a funny thing on her head.


Oh, and I'm not THAT good a Mommy&#8230; Poor Kodi ended up having to wear a cone for a few days because I gave him razor burn by clipping him too short when I did his sanitary trim this last time. HE thinks I am a VERY BAD MOMMY!!!


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

*DAVE *I got back the results from the food I'm feeding can you please tell me if this is high in Iodine.

Hello Susan,

Thank you for your inquiry and your interest in FirstMate products.

We apologize for the delay in responding to your inquiry.
It is important to first note that our company does not manufacture medically specific diets. Although our products have been successfully used to treat a range of nutritional health concerns, it is important to consult with your veterinarian before making any nutritional changes in respect to health conditions.
We do not add any sodium chloride to our Chicken with Blueberries formula. The sodium in the product comes predominantly from the Chicken meal. On a dry matter basis, the sodium content is approximately 0.35%. The dry matter content eliminates the moisture content of the formula to allow for easier comparison between different formula's with different moisture contents. This would equate to approximately 0.48 g Sodium per cup of food.

The iodine content of our Chicken with Blueberries is approximately 1.5-1.6 mg/kg on a dry matter basis. This would equate to approximately 0.23 mg per cup of food. Our feeding guide recommends approximately 1/3 cup per day for a 10 lb dog. This would give a total iodine consumption of around 460-575 µg of iodine per week (if 2-2.5 cups are fed per week). ( I don't know what the 460-575 ug means )

Because we do not manufacture medically specific formulas there will be some natural variation in the nutrient content of our formulas. Although this variation is minimal, it is likely more than seen in medically formulated diets for pets.

We hope that this information is helpful for you to determine whether our formula is suitable for your dogs or not.

Please do not hesitate to contact me directly should you have any additional questions.

Kind Regards,


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

krandall said:


> Oh, and I'm not THAT good a Mommy&#8230; Poor Kodi ended up having to wear a cone for a few days because I gave him razor burn by clipping him too short when I did his sanitary trim this last time. HE thinks I am a VERY BAD MOMMY!!!


 But you were just trying to be a good Mommy.  
I want to add the powder to their food but I am concerned because I don't want to end up with problems. I don't have a history of my Havanese. Zoeys breeder doesn't like me. And Maddies breeder wont even answer E mails because we wrote about her leg being a birth problem.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Suzi said:


> *DAVE *I got back the results from the food I'm feeding can you please tell me if this is high in Iodine.
> 
> Hello Susan,
> 
> ...


 I answered your PM that you also sent


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

krandall said:


> It's not sodium that Dave is concerned about, it's iodine. Everyone has to do what they think is best for their dogs. My breeder recommends it for her puppies, and it certainly doesn't seem to shorten the lives of the dogs in her line, considering the ages of some of them&#8230; and they don't have thyroid problems either. Now that's NOT to say that it might not be a problem in some lines, and depending on what you feed. But it's working for us. There are other choices.
> 
> I also bought a set of scaling tools, and Pam showed me how to use them. Kodi has ONE tooth on each side with a crease in the side, that does get some build-up that I can't get off by brushing. Periodically, I GENTLY remove this material by gently scraping with a scaler. I am very careful not to damage his gums when I do this, and he stays very still for me. You couldn't do it on a dog that wiggled.
> 
> As I said, with the combination of things I'm doing, so far my vet is very happy with how his mouth looks, and (knock wood) there has been no talk of him needing a veterinary cleaning. His mouth smells good too.


Are the scaling tools for dogs? I would like to buy some. I have the same issue, just one pesky area that seems to show some build up.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> *DAVE *I got back the results from the food I'm feeding can you please tell me if this is high in Iodine.
> 
> Hello Susan,
> 
> ...


Dave wrote: NRC 2006 guidelines the *weekly* recommended intake of iodine for a 10 pound dog is 645 mcg

I believe that µg and mcg are the same thing. If so, if I'm reading this right, your food is under the recommended level for a 10 lb dog.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

SJ1998 said:


> Are the scaling tools for dogs? I would like to buy some. I have the same issue, just one pesky area that seems to show some build up.


I bought mine at the Havanese national specialty last year. I'm not sure if they are specific to dogs or if they're the same as they use on people.


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

krandall said:


> I bought mine at the Havanese national specialty last year. I'm not sure if they are specific to dogs or if they're the same as they use on people.


Thank you! I will look into it.


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## Harleytoo (Feb 27, 2014)

Suzi, so sorry to hear about Zoey. Thank you for sharing about Zoeys tooth problem. I really appreciate the reminder to brush their teeth. That is one area that I need a lot of improvement in. 
Is there a specific way to brush their teeth? And how long do you brush?


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Zoey is doing really good and she has such nice breath for my kisses. I loved seeing her this morning chewing on her bone. I didn't think she would try with only about 7 teeth left. I've still been afraid to give her the baby carrots she love so much. Maybe I'll cook them.


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