# Arrrgh, So tired of the Hand Nipping



## swaye (Mar 28, 2013)

We were doing well with the nipping and mouthing of hands. But it seems to have escalated to where she was 3-4 weeks ago. The issue with nipping at our feet is 98% gone. But she stills nips and sometimes hard at our hands when we ask of her to do something which she doesn't want to do. This includes attaching her leash, putting on her halter for walks (which she loves). She knows the difference between the potty door and the walk door and eagerly heads to the walk door when I ask if she is ready for a walk. But when it comes to putting on the harness, she throws a temper tantrum. She gets excited when playing with us and even when she plays by herself. If we are playing with her, she will eventually grab for our hands. Of course, we quit the game and ignore her, but she will do the same thing at next play session. When she gets excited she will also leap at our clothing. And grooming, hah, that to, is an invitation to nip. I have started to be a bit more stern with my voice just in the last couple of days. I have also proceeded (today) to put her in her crate every time she nips/play bites. She has been in there frequently today. (I don't keep her there but 5 minutes, unless she falls asleep). She seems to be paying attention, but I can't be sure. She has about 20 different toys with different degrees of chewing toughness. She seems to get bored quickly with them and then find something she KNOWS she is not to chew to chew on. She has accomplished the basic commands, (sit, sit stay, stand, down, down stay) hand shake and roll over..each way). We also do leash walk and she is improving slowly. We socialize her as much as we can (we have no dog parks and one doggy day care, which we haven't been to). We take her every place that allows dogs and to our families homes. We were gone with her for the better part of the whole weekend. She has been around other dogs and cats and when we are out, behaves well. She has been to puppy obedience and that is all that is available locally without driving 50-60 minutes away. I am weary... I think I may be too old for a puppy. I am a "younger" senior citizen, who is in good health and weather permitting, until we got this pup, walked 3 miles 5 days a week. She is wearing me down. She is 17 weeks old. How long till this nipping at us subsides.


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## mamacjt (Aug 23, 2011)

I'm thinking that she probably is teething too which makes it doubly worse. This will pass....believe me. I, too, am a younger senior citizen and 2 years ago, I felt exactly like you, but we stuck it out and now our "boy" is the best dog we ever had, by far!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

It's not unusual to hit the "what have I done!" phase with a rambunctious puppy. . She WILL grow out of it, and you WILL live throughh it, even if it doesn't seem like it now!


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Take her by the scruff of her neck give a small shake and put her in time out.IMO


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

hang in there!!! We brought Tillie home at 14 weeks at the end of September 2010 and by the beginning of NOVEMBER I just about returned her to the breeder!! I was miserably sick, my dad had just suddenly passed away and here was this puppy that I had to let in and out and in and out and in and out and IN and OUT and I was SO horribley sick and SO devastated by the loss of my dad ( he was 66) ... I honestly did not know how I was going to get through that. and then I discovered that BECAUSE of Tillie I HAD to get UP, I HAD to press on, I HAD to be there for HER and in turn. she was there for me. just in time.
Hang in there another month or 2 and you will hopefully come to know that this too shall pass!!


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

:hug:Ahh Tamie Till is such a comfort and unconditional member of your family. I'm happy she is in your life.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

thanks Suzi  Honestly I had forgotten all that until I started writing...


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Ya I hear you girl friend! Your story reminded me of my Dad. You However Have a house trained dog and very fast I might add. And my two aren't!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

lol, ya well, I'm a LOT OCD and my husband was INSISTANT she be potty trained ASAP or I feared he wouldn't let me keep her!! This was of course long before she had him wrapped around her little fluffy white paw. :clap2:


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## Regina (Mar 9, 2013)

Suzi said:


> Take her by the scruff of her neck give a small shake and put her in time out.IMO


Wow...sorry but I would NEVER do that to a puppy (especially the shaking part) let alone to any dog. Get a clean wash cloth and freeze it, she will probably love the coolness on her teeth. This is what we sign up for, it is up to us to take care of them for the next 15 years. Puppies are not going to sit quietly by your feet, at least not initially. When she gets overly excited and your playing with her be sure not to grab towards her mouth with or without a toy. This encourages them to mouth your hand when you aren't playing. 
Remember,...this is all new to her also. Talk to her constantly this will initially stop her to look at you, at least it worked for me. I hear your frustration in your written voice,...she picks up on this also. Try to stay calm, take some deep breaths around her...it will get better. But by all means don't be rough with her. Watch some puppy videos on you tube and see how they play with each other. If she starts to bite your hand just withdrawal it and say no bite.


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## Atticus (May 17, 2011)

You will survive this!!!!! Sounds like you are doing a good job. It is hard and I think none of us are really prepared for how hard and frustrating it can be (or none of us would be on this forum). You want and wait for this adorable best friend and then they run you ragged and you wonder what you were thinking. However it does get better,but not overnight! Keep training and distracting, and treating, and one day you will realize,your pup has outgrown his nippy,and teething stage,of course he may just move on to the barking at the wind and sudden deafness when you call him stage! But eventually you will emerge to where I am with my 2 year old pretty darn perfect pup remembering it all!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> Take her by the scruff of her neck give a small shake and put her in time out.IMO


ABSOLUTELY DO NOT shake puppies by the scruff of the neck. You can damage the nerves in the neck. Time out in crate or ex-pen is fine.


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## Karen Collins (Mar 21, 2013)

This is just my opinion from experience. So, if it doesn't agree with someone, don't throw rocks at me. I don't believe puppy nipping is caused by teething. Nipping does not satisfy the gums. Chewing does! Puppies nip for different reasons. Sometimes it's a way to get attention. Sometimes it's a way to dominate or herd. Some Havanese do like to herd. Usually a puppy that has not adequately learned bite inhibition from it's mother and littermates will nip. This can happen if the puppy was a singleton or if he was removed from the litter before 10 weeks. And in my experience they never just outgrow it. They have to be taught not to do it.

I agree with Karen, never shake a puppy. It can only hurt them and won't do a thing to stop the nipping. Time-outs aren't effective as a teaching tool either. That's only good if you have a situation that you need to keep from escalating. Sometimes removing the puppy is best for everyone involved, but it does not teach him not to nip. 

With a young puppy, I will try doing what his littermates would do and that is to "yelp" loudly when he nips. It will startle him and usually make him stop and go do something else. I've spent a lot of time watching the mother of the litter correct her puppies. She will usually get very still and stand very straight and tall looking toward the puppy but not make eye contact with the pup. This is usually enough to send him away to play with something else. Talking or moving will only make the pup think you are playing. Get very still and quiet. Don't stare at him. Some pups will take staring as an invitation to do it again.

If herding is the issue, your puppy will need a job to do. Agility may be just his thing down the road. But I suspect this guy as young as he is, just hasn't properly learned bite-inhibition. 

Bottom-line. Try dealing with the immediate nip by "yelping" to distract and discourage. But then try heading the nipping off, by training. Teach your puppy obedience commands. Sit, Off, Down, Stay, Leave it. These are all very useful to teach your puppy that you are the boss. Don't forget to teach them fun tricks as well. You-tube is full of wonderful videos on training your puppy. Definitely sign up for obedience classes at a reputable trainer when he's old enough.

Also, last word. A tired puppy is a good puppy. At 17 weeks it shouldn't take much to tucker this guy out. Make sure you schedule consistent play/training time with him everyday.

Good Luck!


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## grandma04 (Nov 8, 2012)

*Play nipping*

My 5 month old Soli was a terrible nipper. If she couldn't get to our hands, she would jump at our face. My vet suggested getting a bottle of Bitter Apple(Pet Smart) tell her firmly NO BITE ! When or if she continues to bite, squirt a very tiny amt in her mouth...making sure you don't get any in her eyes. Boy, did that end the nipping. All I have to do is say no bite and show her the bottle now. It took two times for Soli to get the message. Make sure it is almost a minuscule amt of Bitter Apple. It does not take much for them to get the message. I tried all the suggestions, attempting to stop this nipping. Nothing worked. She was nipping, not only my dh, but the grandchildren. Something had to be done!


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## marlowe'sgirl (Jun 17, 2010)

A few things that got me through the puppy stage:
- Puppy play sessions: A local trainer offered these monitored 1hr long play sessions where everyone brought their puppies and they just went nuts. If any pup got aggressive or over-stimulated, they were promptly removed for a time out. Shyer/scared puppies watched from an ex-pen until they got curious enough to join the fray. There was a lot of puppy-puppy correction of proper manners. The pups were always exhausted after a session and guaranteed a long nap afterwards. It was a great way to socialize your pup with dogs of all different breeds, teach them manners and some confidence if the bigger dogs were scary at first.

- Long walks: Like others stated, a good dog is a tired dog. Go on a hr long walk and wear the little guy out.

- The Crate: If my pup got too rowdy or couldn't be distracted, it was crate time. Nipping sometimes was a sign of cranky-tired needs a nap. I did the "yelp" thing too if it was just in course of play. If I got too overwhelmed, it was crate time. If I just needed to do work, it was crate time. Before he was house-trained, anytime I couldn't watch him with an eagle eye was crate time. The crate had all sorts of good toys and he got a treat whenever he went inside.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Karen I'm not saying to hurt the puppy. I'm saying its a way to get their attention to stop biting. And a loud ouch is also a way to get their attention The next time your puppy bites you, scream "OW!" in a high-pitched voice. Exaggerate a little. Then refuse to play with him or pay attention to him for a few minutes. If he doesn't get the message, give him a little scruff shake and scold him in a low-toned, threatening voice. You can exaggerate a little on that, too! Sound meaner than you really are. For puppies that just won't quit or seem to get wilder with every correction, flip them over on their backs, scold them in that same low, scary voice (growling) and gently but firmly, hold them in that position until they stop struggling. .
Arragh said she is so tired of the hand nipping and even tho you think what I'm saying is abusive or hurtful I really don't think the work grab was meant to be pinch and by no means the shake is no more than a tiny wiggle. or anything other than getting the pups attention. I would never hurt a animal.eace:


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## misstray (Feb 6, 2011)

Sometimes it's a bit of trial and error. What works for one pup doesn't work for another. The yelping thing totally didn't work for Brody...in fact it encouraged it. I swear his little brain processed the yelp the same as a squeaky toy and he'd attack more! 

Things I did with Brody were keeping my hand there when he was biting and telling him "gentle" in a firm voice and then praising him when he changed the nip into a lick. This actually worked surprisingly well with him. Sometimes there was just no stopping him and I'd either just go put him in his crate or when he was really out of control, I'd hold him in my arms like you'd cradle a baby in your arms. Lots (most?) of dogs don't like this position at all so don't use it if your dog doesn't like it, but Brody would just zen right out and instantly calm down and then go to sleep. He doesn't like this position anymore so I don't do it anymore (unless I forget and do it by accident), but as a pup it worked like nothing else.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> Karen I'm not saying to hurt the puppy. I'm saying its a way to get their attention to stop biting. And a loud ouch is also a way to get their attention The next time your puppy bites you, scream "OW!" in a high-pitched voice. Exaggerate a little. Then refuse to play with him or pay attention to him for a few minutes. If he doesn't get the message, give him a little scruff shake and scold him in a low-toned, threatening voice. You can exaggerate a little on that, too! Sound meaner than you really are. For puppies that just won't quit or seem to get wilder with every correction, flip them over on their backs, scold them in that same low, scary voice (growling) and gently but firmly, hold them in that position until they stop struggling. .
> Arragh said she is so tired of the hand nipping and even tho you think what I'm saying is abusive or hurtful I really don't think the work grab was meant to be pinch and by no means the shake is no more than a tiny wiggle. or anything other than getting the pups attention. I would never hurt a animal.eace:


Grabbing, shaking, growling, scolding and holding puppies on their back until they stop struggling (even if done "gently") goes against EVERYTHING we know about effective, positive training, Suzi. You have said, yourself, that you are a lazy trainer, and haven't been consistent or effective with your own. This is just plain bad advice, and I hope people will ignore it and take some of the good advice offered in this thread.


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## Crinkle Cookie (Apr 19, 2013)

I also have a new puppy (16 weeks) so all this is very helpful for me. This is my first Havanese and I don't remember my other dogs (Golden Retriever and Sheltie ) nipping this much. Their teeth were not as sharp and they certainly did not dive bomb your face. Haha. That said this little puppy melts my heart in so many ways. I am delighted with her. 
It sounds like this is all very normal and good to know they grow out of it.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

krandall said:


> Grabbing, shaking, growling, scolding and holding puppies on their back until they stop struggling (even if done "gently") goes against EVERYTHING we know about effective, positive training, Suzi. You have said, yourself, that you are a lazy trainer, and haven't been consistent or effective with your own. This is just plain bad advice, and I hope people will ignore it and take some of the good advice offered in this thread.


 Karen you are entitled to your own thoughts.You could have just said the first part and left out the personal stuff. I don't appreciate it. I can remember when I got flack for putting them in the create for time out. It gets confusing when I read or am told by one trainer what to do and then get told not to by another what they say is wrong. Any way I'm done putting my two cents wort in I'll let you teach everyone the right way. It will save me a lot of time.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Karen Collins said:


> This is just my opinion from experience. So, if it doesn't agree with someone, don't throw rocks at me. I don't believe puppy nipping is caused by teething. Nipping does not satisfy the gums. Chewing does! Puppies nip for different reasons. Sometimes it's a way to get attention. Sometimes it's a way to dominate or herd. Some Havanese do like to herd. Usually a puppy that has not adequately learned bite inhibition from it's mother and littermates will nip. This can happen if the puppy was a singleton or if he was removed from the litter before 10 weeks. And in my experience they never just outgrow it. They have to be taught not to do it.
> 
> I agree with Karen, never shake a puppy. It can only hurt them and won't do a thing to stop the nipping. Time-outs aren't effective as a teaching tool either. That's only good if you have a situation that you need to keep from escalating. Sometimes removing the puppy is best for everyone involved, but it does not teach him not to nip.
> 
> ...


Hi Karen, just wanted to say that I agree with much of what you are saying here though I am not big on the dominance/boss mentality... I think of it more as expecting good manners of all family members, and developing a mutually respectful relationship. That's why I am dead set against physically overpowering a puppy by shaking, pinning, etc. this does more to damage the relationship between the owner and dog than it does any "teaching". My answer was short, because I had written much of what you wrote here to the OP earlier, in either this thread or another one.

I don't think that "time outs" teach the puppy much about bite inhibition, but it does serve as a de-escalation period for an over-wound or over-tired puppy.

I was interested in your comment about puppies who leave their families early having more trouble with bite inhibition. It seemed to me that we were observing just this here on the forum, but it's interesting to hear that observation echoed by a breeder, who sees a lot more puppies than most of us do.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

grandma04 said:


> My 5 month old Soli was a terrible nipper. If she couldn't get to our hands, she would jump at our face. My vet suggested getting a bottle of Bitter Apple(Pet Smart) tell her firmly NO BITE ! When or if she continues to bite, squirt a very tiny amt in her mouth...making sure you don't get any in her eyes. Boy, did that end the nipping. All I have to do is say no bite and show her the bottle now. It took two times for Soli to get the message. Make sure it is almost a minuscule amt of Bitter Apple. It does not take much for them to get the message. I tried all the suggestions, attempting to stop this nipping. Nothing worked. She was nipping, not only my dh, but the grandchildren. Something had to be done!


This is not a method I would use, but if you are GOING to use positive punishment, this is the way to do it. It has to have a strong enough impact that it stops the behavior immediately and permanently.

The problem is that you are always taking a chance with this type of tactic. If it is not PERFECTLY timed, and of just the right intensity, you can cause bigger problems. You can end up reallly scaring the dog, you can get "superstitious" behaviors (where the dog thinks the punishment was the cause of something other than what the handler planned) or you can get into a situation where you have to escalate the level of punishment in order to get the response you're looking for.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

krandall said:


> This is not a method I would use, but if you are GOING to use positive punishment, this is the way to do it. It has to have a strong enough impact that it stops the behavior immediately and permanently.
> 
> The problem is that you are always taking a chance with this type of tactic. If it is not PERFECTLY timed, and of just the right intensity, you can cause bigger problems. You can end up reallly scaring the dog, you can get "superstitious" behaviors (where the dog thinks the punishment was the cause of something other than what the handler planned) or you can get into a situation where you have to escalate the level of punishment in order to get the response you're looking for.


Well said, Karen. But I think timeouts can be valuable. Like the other Karen mentioned. There are a number of reasons for nipping ,especially in puppies. And the biggest is attention seeking reasons. Here's a good article on time outs. by one of our members at IAABC http://www.dogspelledforward.com/time-out-dog-training/


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## Karen Collins (Mar 21, 2013)

Regarding bite-inhibition. 

When puppies start to get their teeth, they can't wait to sink them into something or someone. Usually, it's Mama during nursing. She won't put up with it for long and will correct puppy. Usually by getting up and leaving the whelping box. No more milk. But puppy isn't very smart at this point and while Mom's suffering is alleviated, the lesson doesn't translate to littermates during playtime. So, again they begin to tumble and play and sink their teeth into brother or sister who will let out a high pitched yelp which startles the biter and he usually will go pester another littermate until he gets the same response from everyone. This goes on for several weeks, until a pecking order is established and everyone learns to play nice. This is an early development lesson that is best taught by the litter. 


I had a litter once with a singleton puppy who is now 2 yrs old. And despite my best efforts and his own dam's efforts and the diligent training of the new owners, he still struggles with nipping. Which only proves to me that the early development that puppies get from the litter is invaluable for the rest of their lives. Many Havanese don't even get a full set of puppy teeth until they are 8 or 9 weeks old. So, if they leave the litter at 8 weeks or younger, they haven't had much time to learn this very important lesson. 

Of course, learning not to bite doesn't end with the litter, it only begins with the litter. New owners still have to continue training until the puppy matures.

I liked the response where someone said they will leave their hand in the pup's mouth and give a soft command, like 'gentle' until the puppy licks their hand. I have used that technique with giving treats as well. Sometimes my dogs get a little too excited and will bite or nip when taking a treat from my hand. If they are way too excited about the treat, I'll hide it in my hand and offer a closed fist and say easy, until they calm down and lick my hand and then I release the treat.


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## marlowe'sgirl (Jun 17, 2010)

davetgabby said:


> Well said, Karen. But I think timeouts can be valuable. Like the other Karen mentioned. There are a number of reasons for nipping ,especially in puppies. And the biggest is attention seeking reasons. Here's a good article on time outs. by one of our members at IAABC http://www.dogspelledforward.com/time-out-dog-training/


I agree on the time-outs. I don't think of it as 'punishment' time-outs like for kids, but rather a cool-off, go hang with your toys, and maybe take a nap in a quiet safe place intervention when over-stimulated (you or the pup). I used the crate often with my little guy and I'm all about positive training. It was never a sharp negative tone "get in your crate", but happy upbeat "let's go in your crate and you get a cookie. it's crate time!"


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

Oh well, I can't add anything that hasn't been said. 

However.... if you ever need help with a puppy who is "herding" the cat or the kids, I am your girl. Of course, Havs can't drag kids into corners like Border Collies can. "But, but... I am sure the toddler needs to kept in the corner... He belongs there. Honest."


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

morriscsps said:


> Oh well, I can't add anything that hasn't been said.
> 
> However.... if you ever need help with a puppy who is "herding" the cat or the kids, I am your girl. Of course, Havs can't drag kids into corners like Border Collies can. "But, but... I am sure the toddler needs to kept in the corner... He belongs there. Honest."


Ha! I think I've mentioned that Kodi has very strong herding instinct too. He regularly used to round up the neighbor's chickens and herd them back into their pen. (I use the term "used to" because I FERVENTLY hope that the neighbors are going to do a better job keeping them IN their pen, and OUT of my perennial beds!)


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