# Our potty training system in pictures



## Tom King

If you don't see the pictures, you need to join these Forums. Only members can view pictures here. It's pretty simple, and I have found no securty issues being a member since the Forums first started


System instructions start here: 

Today we start the puppies on our system of potty training. Today is Monday, and they will be 4 weeks this Thursday night. Sometimes we start a little earlier.

This morning was the first time their bedding was damp. Rather than going by a specific time to start, the damp bedding is our signal to start. Frolic (the Mom) has been taking great care of things up to now, but the bedding being damp is the sign that she now has more than she can handle.

The pups still spend most of their time in the whelping box. 

While they were sleeping in a big doughnut bed, I lifted the whole thing out and set them aside on the floor while I change the box setup, adding the litter box.

As soon as one wakes up, I pick it up, and place it in the litter box. It will find its way to the bed next to the litter box.

We'll watch them carefully today, and every time one stands up when it first wakes up, we will place it in the litter box, and let it find its way back to the sleeping area.

This is one of the most important steps in our system, and time spent these first few days will pay big dividends in time saved as they progress over the next weeks here.

This picture shows them asleep in the first setup. The little spots where the wood pellets have turned to sawdust, is where each one peed when it was placed in the litter box the first time after waking up.

Frolic watched me do the whole change very calmly. She knew exactly what I was doing, and was quite alright about it.

Stage 2 picture and comments on page 3 of this thread.

The litterbox is one I made from a Sterilite box, available in big box stores. I clamped a utilty knife blade in Vise-Grips, heated it red hot with a propane torch, and cut the one side down to about an inch and a half or 2 inches high. You can cut about 5 or 6 inches before having to reheat the blade. The top of the litter needs to be about the same height as the level of the bedding, so there is no climbing involved for the little ones at this stage. They can waddle back and forth easily.


Litterboxes made by Purina have been off the market for a while. They are once again available by a company called PuppyGoHere.


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## TilliesMom

awwwww, wow, what a great systems!!!


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## Tom King

After this first session at the change, they slept for about 3 hours. I was able to catch each one as it stood up, and placed it in the box. There was a lot of "talking" about it amongst them, but no one got worked up.

One of the boys thought it was great fun, and walked a couple of circles on the edge, back and forth from the bed to the box. 

There was one small leak spot from one of the boys, so I changed the bed to a clean one while they were all in the box.

Frolic nursed them, and now they are all sound asleep again. We'll do this for the first few days, until they are consistent about getting in the box on their own.

They have the instinct not to soil the bed, but we are starting this a couple of days before they really would start doing it on their own. The Mother would do a pretty good job of cleaning the bed area, but we want them getting used to clean bedding and earlier is better than too late.

You have to be a bit OCD to raise OCD puppies.


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## shimpli

Wonderful. I will follow this thread as the puppies grow and master the potty thing. So interesting.


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## whimsy

Love it!!!!They are growing so fast!


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## Becky Chittenden

I've only tried the litter on 2 litters, one Havanese and the other sheltie. The shelties took to it right away and were inside and outside housebroken by the time they were 8 weeks. The Hav another story. The mother kept eating the litter, even when they hadn't gone on it and it was fresh. I worried about it causing problems by maybe swelling in her and took it away. I was using that litter Purina made, but haven't noticed it in the store lately. I'd like to try again on our next litter. What do you use and where do you get it?


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## Tom King

We use smooth grained hardwood (not oak) heater wood pellets if we can find ones we like, or pine pellets sold in Tractor Supply for use in horse stalls. You can find the pine pellets year round in Tractor Supply or feed and tack shops. 

We used the Purina for years since it first came out, but there are a number of reasons we like the wood pellets better-not the least is cost. Purina pellets had gotten up to something like $18 for 20 pounds. Wood pellets are 5 to 6 dollars for a 40 pound bag.

As you can see in the picture in the first post, you can tell what needs to be taken out. It never smells bad.


edited to add: We've only used the Equine Pine pellets for years since I first posted this. We get them in 40 lb. bags from Tractor Supply.


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## Tom King

About 2 1/2 hours after the second wake up, Frolic decided she would nurse them. She cleaned them up while they were nursing. When she finished and jumpe out, I put them in the box. Only a couple had to go after her working on them. The bed was a bit damp, so they got another change, and are back asleep on clean bedding.


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## whitzend

Do you have to do this all through the night also, putting them on the litter box?

Linda Cooper's Mom


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## Tom King

I usually get up once or twice the first couple of nights. Pretty soon, they will be walking in on their own. One of the boys went in on his own right after he nursed this last time. They pick up on it pretty fast if you catch them at this stage at the right time. We have a baby monitor set up, and our bedroom is right beside the closet/whelping room -8x16'. They don't usually wake up unless the Mom is ready to nurse them, and they start talking about it so we can hear them on the monitor.


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## whitzend

I am so impressed and find this very interesting. Can't wait for the next update.

Linda


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## angiern2004

Tom, I know this doesn't have a ton to do with the topic, but I wanted to tell you that I've enjoyed the videos on your website.


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## Momo means Peach

Tom, I'm very impressed with your level of commitment. No wonder you have a long waiting list!


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## Tom King

This morning I moved the little platform that Frolic gets up on, before she jumps in to nurse, down on the litter box end. Now the pups run to get close to her while she sets up there the last minute or so before her milk lets down. This puts them automatically in the litter box when they first wake up.

I only had to change the bedding once in the night last night, and it's stayed dry all day today, so far.

With other Moms I would have changed the whole setup to start with, but Frolic has been funny about big changes before, so we're doing everything in steps for her.

Today the pups started mouthing each other in play sessions grabbing and twisting ears and noses. Frolic was out in the house with the other dogs and decided to carry a toy back to the babies.

Pam put a page on our website for these puppies finally. Any time any thing is changed on any page it dumps all the videos on that page. Since the navigation bars had to be changed on all the pages, all the videos on our site will be off for a while until I put each one back on. None are available (unless you are already on our waiting list).

http://www.starbornhavanese.com/newpuppies.html That page doesn't apply to the puppies in this thread anymore, we change that page with any new puppies we have, so it doesn't change other pages on the website, as it would if we added a new page each litter.


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## gelbergirl

I am completely fascinated by this training. The pups are smart cookies learning how all this goes.


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## Becky Chittenden

Thanks, Tom. We have Tractor Supply fairly close (about 20 minutes away. I do plan to try it next time, hope it works and the dam doesn't eat it like the Purina paper product. Could have been the paper.


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## Tom King

We did have some trouble with eating of the Purina pellets, but it's been long enough ago that I don't remember if it was the Mom or pups-Havs do after all have a thing for paper. We've had no trouble with any eating of the wood pellets.


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## Carefulove

Love the new page with the pics! I showed it to the boys, they say their favorite is Jingle because he looks like Toby!


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## ShirleyH

Tom, just such a wise method requiring a relatively short and intense commitment of time and proving once again that puppies learn what they do. Your buyers must be extremely pleased.

Keeper's Mom


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## Tom King

Last night (second night) we both slept through. This morning the bedding was dry, and there were 5 poops in the box. Looks like Frolic is helping us by no longer cleaning them up. The litterbox has a lot of sawdust in it from the urine, so we'll completely change it now. I believe we timed this just right.

The litter box is one I made from a Sterilite box from Walmart. I heated a utility knife blade (clamped in ViseGrips) red hot with a propane torch, and cut the opening side about 1 1/2" high. You have to cut 6 or 8 inches, and reheat. It makes terrible fumes, so do this outside. This lets us put the top of the litter flush with the bedding. At this age, they are still not real sure-footed and are still toddling around a bit. They can climb over things, but we want it to be easy to get into the box when they first wake up. We are teaching them to hold it, starting with just a few steps.


The right sized box with a low enough opening is not commercially available, so I have to make them.


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## morriscsps

When I start to suffer from MHS, I am so going to go on Tom's waiting list. That is amazing!!


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## TilliesMom

morriscsps said:


> When I start to suffer from MHS, I am so going to go on Tom's waiting list. That is amazing!!


I would be TOOOOO, if I wasn't on the other side of the country! 
but I got my 'eye' on a great one out west ...


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## Tom King

Pam and I both had to go out for a while today. When I got back, there were some damp spots on the bedding (this is their second day with a litter box), and it looks like Frolic cleaned them up. They got their second bedding change today, after the first thing in the morning change. Frolic is a good partner in this, but it's by no means a done deal yet. A couple of the pups did go in the box on their own when they woke up when I came in.

They will get a progression over the next 5 or 6 weeks. We expect puppies to have the run of the living part of our house, with a box within 8' of anywhere, with no accidents, by the time they are 8 weeks. Number of boxes, and their distances, get sparser as they age. 

I'll try to keep this thread updated for any breeders that would like to try our system.

Housetraining is the number one reason pups get turned into rescues. You hear the term "responsible breeder" all the time. We believe initial potty training is one of the most necessary things for any breeder who wants to be responsible-especially with Toy dogs.

A dog that is not a problem to house train gets so much more attention at a young age, and gets to become a member of the family so much sooner.

We are trying to ingrain the correct habits from the start. At this age, and for a good while, it's all about habit.


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## Tom King

Today, they were ready to start climbing out of the box, so they go to the second stage of setups. This was 11 days since we first started them on the litter. Time in the first stage will vary from litter to litter. It pays off bigtime to get the first stage down good for them. These have been keeping the bedding dry, day and night, for several days now, even with Frolic still nursing them.

They get two litter pans, one behind the other, so they can go farther away from the bed if they want to, which they usually do at some point along this time.

We start with an 18 inch expen so Mom can get in and out easily, and there are steps that the pups can't get up on yet to make it easy for Mom to get in and out, as well as take up some of the room in the pen.
The bed area is still about the same size.

The next step will be the step box sits up on edge, and next comes out of the end in the bedding side, so they get more room, and have some more steps to go to get to the box. We might put the box back in for a day or two if one starts peeing on the floor between the bed and the litter boxes.


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## unjugetito

I love this!!! Thank you so much for sharing


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## Suzi

Tom is frolic a starborn Havanese and if so was she raised with the litter box?


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## Tom King

Suzi said:


> Tom is frolic a starborn Havanese and if so was she raised with the litter box?


Yes. Every female we have ever bred, since we started with Twinkle, was bred by us, and of course raised here. This morning, there were probably 10 poops in the box, so Frolic is turning the job over to us now. The two boxes gave plenty of room, so that none of it was stepped in. If one or more had stepped in any, we would have washed who and whatever needed washing.

They have been keeping the bedding dry for some days now. We still change it morning, afternoon, and bedtime anyway.

One boy had climbed out last night, and met us this morning with a wagging tail. The box inside the pen will get turned up on edge, giving them a bit more room, and making it harder for one to get out. Frolic is just a bit of a PrimaDonna when she has puppies, and will complain if she has to make too big of a step to start with. All the others would just jump over the 18" expen.


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## lanabanana

I find all of this just fascinating! Thanks so much for sharing.

Alanna


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## daszy

lanabanana said:


> I find all of this just fascinating! Thanks so much for sharing.
> 
> Alanna


Me too! Thanks for sharing.


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## Clair&Bear

Tom King said:


> Housetraining is the number one reason pups get turned into rescues. You hear the term "responsible breeder" all the time. We believe initial potty training is one of the most necessary things for any breeder who wants to be responsible-especially with Toy dogs.
> 
> A dog that is not a problem to house train gets so much more attention at a young age, and gets to become a member of the family so much sooner.
> 
> We are trying to ingrain the correct habits from the start. At this age, and for a good while, it's all about habit.


You are an amazing breeder AND human being! I am very impressed with everything you're doing, well done for being so wonderful! :thumb:


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## Lsprick

"One boy had climbed out last night, and met us this morning with a wagging tail."

So, Tom, is this a sign he'll be good at agility? :whoo:


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## morriscsps

Does that mean they will be ready for the Puppy Preschool Room soon? I love the videos from Puppy Preschool. Those wobbly cute little bodies bouncing around!


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## Tom King

Next step will be a large play expen, and they will go back into the second stage pen for sleeping. I'll post pictures of all the stages. They'll get the play pen setup pretty soon.

Yesterday, Frolic decided it was time to start weaning them, so we started feeding them. This is breakfast this morning. Frolic watches them closely when they are outside their pen.


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## Tom King

Lsprick said:


> "One boy had climbed out last night, and met us this morning with a wagging tail."
> 
> So, Tom, is this a sign he'll be good at agility? :whoo:


It will be another week or two until Pam knows what they are suited for.


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## whimsy

gosh...they are growing up so fast!! Adorable pups!


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## morriscsps

Frolic really knows her stuff. 

I was just wondering. With all those litter boxes around.... do your cats ever decide that the litter boxes are for them?


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## Tom King

The cats have litter boxes upstairs with cat litter in them. They don't recognize the dogs wood pellets as something they would use.

Frolic is a bit of a wimp. At the first sign of a puppy tooth, she's ready to wean. She also has to have all the steps into and out of the expen to suit her, or she will tell us about it. She's very intelligent, and her understanding of all this is pretty amazing. She was starting to get mastitis in one spot a couple of litters ago, and she came to get Pam to help her. Pam can put hot compresses on the first stages of mastitis, and massage it out. Frolic somehow knew this and laid there without me having to hold her. Any of the other girls, I have to hold them if this happens-I can only remember it happening three times in 13 years.


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## Becky Chittenden

loving the baby pictures!


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## Hav a lot of pets

I have cats, too, and always thought the cats would use the paper pellets. I might try the wood pellets for future puppies. Great advice--thanks!


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## Tom King

I've had one of those colds that makes you feel like you're dying, but it's gone now. I'm a bit behind in updating this thread, so this one is a bit out of sequence.

Today, Jan. 31, it was 69 degrees, so we let the puppies go out in the dog yard on the grass for the first time. They were having such a blast, so I went in and got the video camera.

Here's the link to the movie:






I never have figured out which is the correct way to upload a video so you get the window in a post.


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## Lsprick

Tom, we pulled up the video on Apple TV and are watching on the big screen. Oh my goodness, they are soooo adorable. It really was beautiful out today, a perfect day!


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## shimpli

They are sooo cute. I love the white one with that face, awww  And Mom playing with them... adorable. Thanks for sharing.


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## Tom King

That's not Frolic playing with them. That's Brio (Don Juan Pequeno), Zury's Toby's littermate brother-just a big puppy.


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## shimpli

Ohh my... Brio is adorable and I love how he was inviting the puppies to play. Adorable.


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## Tom King

This was his first time playing with the little puppies. He's only met them through the expen bars so far. We shut the other dogs out of the yard to let the puppies out without getting overwhelmed by a pack of dogs. Pam put Brio in just to see how he would do. He did a wonderful job, and didn't send a single one tumbling.

If you look closely, you can see how Brio is starting to silver like Twinkle did at this age. He's really doing great with his training too.


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## ShirleyH

So glad you're feeling better, Tom. The puppies are just adorable. Keeper watched every second of the video--glued to the screen and barked at Brio. I think he wanted to join the fun.

Keeper's Mom


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## krandall

morriscsps said:


> Frolic really knows her stuff.
> 
> I was just wondering. With all those litter boxes around.... do your cats ever decide that the litter boxes are for them?


Our cat ignores Kodi's litter box too, and goes to use her own in the basement.


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## morriscsps

So sweet! You can see their little brains whirling as they watched Brio RLH. It is "how is he DOING that?! I wanna zoom, too!"


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## Carefulove

Oh, I loved watching them Play!!!! The white one is an explorer isn't she?

And Brio is so big, I love how his ear flips back just like Toby's. I can't wait for the hair to grow and weight them down, he looks demonic at night when all you can see is his bright flashing eyes and pink ears flipped back! ound:


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## Suzi

Tom King said:


> I've had one of those colds that makes you feel like you're dying, but it's gone now. I'm a bit behind in updating this thread, so this one is a bit out of sequence.
> 
> Today, Jan. 31, it was 69 degrees, so we let the puppies go out in the dog yard on the grass for the first time. They were having such a blast, so I went in and got the video camera.
> 
> Here's the link to the movie:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I never have figured out which is the correct way to upload a video so you get the window in a post.


 Cute video. To upload the video so it appears in the post you push share then options and choose the long version


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## Ellie NY

Oh my gosh, the puppies are too cute. I just love how some of them have a white stripe going up their tail. How unusual!. Was it the white pup who got out of the expen? Just wondering because he/she looks like a ball of fluffy mischief.

Glad you're feeling better. I'm sure the warm weather is helping.


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## whitzend

Cooper watched the video 5 times. I tried not to but couldn't help it lol The white one, Joy is it? I just love her, she looks like she has a mind of her own. They are all too cute  Brio was so good with them.


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## Tom King

Carefulove said:


> Oh, I loved watching them Play!!!! The white one is an explorer isn't she?
> 
> And Brio is so big, I love how his ear flips back just like Toby's. I can't wait for the hair to grow and weight them down, he looks demonic at night when all you can see is his bright flashing eyes and pink ears flipped back! ound:


Pam weighed Brio a couple of days ago, and said he was on the small side of average for our pups. I don't remember what she said he weighed. I think he just looks big next to the little puppies. The girl might weigh 3 pounds, but all the boys are still less than 3 pounds, so they are still pretty tiny. He looks small next to the adult dogs. I doubt there is much difference between his size and Toby's.

Yes, the little girl is pretty headstrong. She has been the first one to climb out of anything. She is also the largest.
We carried the pups back out in the yard again this afternoon. It was 70 today. We let them play until they were ready to lie down to rest, and just now brought them back in. Now they are devouring an early dinner. They really worked up an appetite.

We transported them outside yesterday and today in a deep laundry basket. Already they have learned to get excited when they see the light green laundry basket. They were glad to get back in it to come in, and as soon as they were back in their expen, they started demanding something to eat!


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## Tom King

I'm pretty far behind in updating this thread, but I covered the important part done in the first few weeks. The pups are 8 1/2 weeks old now, and have the run of the main part of our house at play time when it's too cold to go out. This is the setup they spend most of their time in now. It's right in the middle of everything going on in our house, with people in and out-encouraged as much as possible now, tv going, talking on the phone, cooking in the kitchen-off to one side of the living room but open into the same area. They go back into a smaller sleeping pen at night, and some during the day.

This is most of two 18" expens, with one litter box. We have really watched this litter carefully, and have had zero accidents in the house. They are doing just fine with one litter box now, but when they have the run of the house, there is a litter box available no farther away than 8' in any direction.


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## Charleysmom

this potty method is incredible. wow! tahnks for sharing it. I'm just wondering how I can adapt it to my own puppy when it comes home even though puppy wasn't trained on this method. any suggestions??


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## Tom King

I tried to sneak out to get the camera, since they were sleeping in a perfect pattern, but a couple looked up when I came back in. This was while we are just sitting watching TV at night. They'll go back into their smaller sleeping pen when we go to bed.


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## Tom King

Lori, If the pup is trained to pads, put the pad in a litter box to start. Later, put some litter under it, and gradually make the pad smaller. Any transition has to be slow. Even at that, it's not a sure thing. Others have had a hard time making it work changing to litter. I think puppies who weren't raised with a litter box, think of it as something to chew on and play with a lot of times.


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## krandall

Tom King said:


> I tried to sneak out to get the camera, since they were sleeping in a perfect pattern, but a couple looked up when I came back in. This was while we are just sitting watching TV at night. They'll go back into their smaller sleeping pen when we go to bed.


whose babies are these, Tom? They are, as always, adorable!


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## krandall

Tom King said:


> Lori, If the pup is trained to pads, put the pad in a litter box to start. Later, put some litter under it, and gradually make the pad smaller. Any transition has to be slow. Even at that, it's not a sure thing. Others have had a hard time making it work changing to litter. I think puppies who weren't raised with a litter box, think of it as something to chew on and play with a lot of times.


That said, a lot of people who have pups who were started on just pee pads seem to be able to transition them over to the UgoDog (which is a frame that the pad fits into and protects from chewing, etc.) without too much difficulty.

I love the litter box, but the UgoDog would be my second choice. Pee Pads that are not secured in some way are useless with Kodi... HE thinks THEY are just big chew toys!:biggrin1:


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## Carefulove

krandall said:


> whose babies are these, Tom? They are, as always, adorable!


Frolic's (by Posh). I saw them when they were just a few days old! :biggrin1:


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## HannahBearsMom

Carefulove said:


> Frolic's (by Posh). I saw them when they were just a few days old! :biggrin1:


I saw them on Friday. They are all adorable and loveable. I can't wait to find out which one is going to be mine!

--Laurie


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## krandall

Carefulove said:


> Frolic's (by Posh). I saw them when they were just a few days old! :biggrin1:


Ahhh, so these are the ones we got to watch from the <ehem> VERY beginning!:biggrin1:


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## Lsprick

krandall said:


> Ahhh, so these are the ones we got to watch from the <ehem> VERY beginning!:biggrin1:


LOL @ Karen!


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## Becky Chittenden

Amazing how big they've gotten, not really, but time flies. They are really cute, Tom


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## Tom King

We also have one UgoDog, and one of the ones that use grass too, to expose the puppies to them in case someone wants to change. These puppies use the UgoDog too, but we haven't put out the one with artificial grass, since there is a 4x15' patch of it on the dog porch, and they have already all peed on that. 

There is always something to have to deal with for any indoor system. With the litter, their feet never get dirty or stinky, but some of the litter will end up on the floor. A vacuum will make quick work of it, but the worst part is stepping on a piece with a bare foot if you get up in the middle of the night. It hurts. We quickly learned to walk softly though and it doesn't bother us now.

Both the UgoDog and the grass thing, are a pain to clean relative to using a litter box. Especially if a pup gets soft poop. They both have to be washed pretty frequently not to develop a stink from the urine. Smell is never an issue with litter, and cleanup is quick and easy.

We have had a couple of people successfully train to outside only, but you have to be able devote you life to it not to have accidents. And then theres still the problem with terrible weather. The majority of people who want outside only are the ones who end up having accidents in the house. 

As much effort as we put into training our pups to start with, it can all be thrown out the window in an afternoon. One example I can think of was an owner who expected the pup to go down some steps in a split level house to use the box in another room. Another we told to use a baby gate to confine the pup to the kitchen, but we didn't realize the kitchen was designed to entertain 100 people. They were both pretty quickly turned around by talking to Pam on the phone though.

The big problem for litter now is that Purina has stopped making the boxes, and we can't find them anywhere in stock. We didn't like their litter, but did a lot of business with their boxes. We're already in the process of finding something for our puppy buyers. I'm probably going to have to modify something like I do for the first stage of the little pups.


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## krandall

Tom King said:


> There is always something to have to deal with for any indoor system. With the litter, their feet never get dirty or stinky, but some of the litter will end up on the floor. A vacuum will make quick work of it, but the worst part is stepping on a piece with a bare foot if you get up in the middle of the night. It hurts. We quickly learned to walk softly though and it doesn't bother us now.


I'll second that! It's not so much a problem at home, because the litter box isn't really in a walk way. But in our travel trailer... OUCH!



Tom King said:


> Both the UgoDog and the grass thing, are a pain to clean relative to using a litter box. Especially if a pup gets soft poop. They both have to be washed pretty frequently not to develop a stink from the urine. Smell is never an issue with litter, and cleanup is quick and easy.


We DID wash the grass mats frequently... I even got extras so we could rotate. I still couldn't keep them clean enough not to find the smell objectionable. But maybe my nose is particularly sensitive. I've never tried the UgoDog, because Kodi doesn't understand what a pee pad is for. One word on litter... there is no smell with wood pellets.

"Dog litter", which is usually compressed newspaper, can get VERY smelly if you get down close to it. and it doesn't puff up like wood pellets, so it's not obvious that the dog has used the box. I had a (short) problem when at one point we couldn't get the wood pellets and I tried dog litter. Kodi seemed to adapt to it fine, then all of a sudden started peeing on the floor beside the box rather than in it. I was on my hands and knees cleaning it up, and got near the box. The ammonia smell almost bowled me over, and the box LOOKED pristine. I threw out all the dog litter, went on a hunt to find wood pellets in the summer (ended up with the horse pellet (Equine Pine) rather than wood stove pellets, but they worked just as well) and he immediately stopped peeing on the floor.



Tom King said:


> We have had a couple of people successfully train to outside only, but you have to be able devote you life to it not to have accidents. And then theres still the problem with terrible weather. The majority of people who want outside only are the ones who end up having accidents in the house.


Of course, I've only got a sample size of one, but after having Kodi, I can't imagine why people would NOT want to keep both options open. This winter has been mild, but last winter, we had MANY days that Kodi literally couldn't get out of the house until Dave had shoveled and snow blowed. But that's not the only reason. We take Kodi with us everywhere we can. He travels with us in the trailer and he stays in hotels with us. It is SO much easier to let him do his early morning pottying in his litter box than to get dressed to take him out of the trailer, or worse, down and elevator and outside a hotel!



Tom King said:


> As much effort as we put into training our pups to start with, it can all be thrown out the window in an afternoon. One example I can think of was an owner who expected the pup to go down some steps in a split level house to use the box in another room. Another we told to use a baby gate to confine the pup to the kitchen, but we didn't realize the kitchen was designed to entertain 100 people. They were both pretty quickly turned around by talking to Pam on the phone though.


And as the owner of a Starborn puppy, I can attest to this too! Kodi was absolutely reliable in his ex-pen with litter box when we brought him home, but he was still a very young puppy, getting used to a new home with MANY more rugs than he was accustomed to. He required close watching, and limiting access to larger areas for many months. Did he have accidents? Yes. But I can honestly say they were from us missing (or misinterpreting) his signals, or giving him too much freedom too soon.



Tom King said:


> The big problem for litter now is that Purina has stopped making the boxes, and we can't find them anywhere in stock. We didn't like their litter, but did a lot of business with their boxes. We're already in the process of finding something for our puppy buyers. I'm probably going to have to modify something like I do for the first stage of the little pups.


As an alternative, I would suggest the Rascal Dog boxes. They are not cheap, but they are VERY well made, very stable, and big enough even for the "giant economy size" Starborn dog to make his full "potty dance" circle inside the box. It comes with the grass mat if people want to try that, but more important, it also comes with a grid that you can put either over a pee pad or the litter.

This became really important to us after Kodi got so sick last winter. We learned at that point that if a dog is feeling abdominal distress, they sometimes eat things they shouldn't. In Kodi's case, he ate litter, but when he came home from the hospital, we were not even allowed to let him have any bedding until he recovered. We were told that dogs will sometimes even eat the edges off rugs if they are in distress.

So from that point on, his box in the kitchen, which he uses most of the time, is open. But the one in his ex-pen, which he has access to when we are either asleep or not at home, has the grid over it. That way, we know that if he WERE to have a tummy ache again, and we weren't around, he couldn't make matters worse by filling his stomach with litter. Incidentally, this is another reason I MUCH prefer wood pellets to "dog litter"... wood pellets simply disintegrate when wet. Dog litter holds its shape and expands several fold. If Kodi had swallowed dog litter rather than wood pellets when he was sick, he probably would have ruptured his stomach. (to be clear, it was NOT the litter that MADE him sick, he ate the litter AFTER he was already sick)


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## Carefulove

Karen,

We trained Bumi to use a Pee Pad and after a few months, he would shred it and then hold the pee until we got home. He refused to pee indoors, regardless what we tried. To this day, Bumi will NOT pee in the house, not in a pee pad, litter box or floor. Even when is raining (which he hates), he'll hold it in.

Toby uses the litter box and I have yet to smell pee. I love how it just turns to saw dust, but will retain the "Wood" smell, rather than pee!


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## spreadtheword

That's amazing. Thank you so much for sharing.


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## HannahBearsMom

> I use a long Sterilite box from Walmart.
> 
> When we first got Toby I got a few of the cat litter boxes from Target and they worked great for a while. For some reason, Toby likes to use the box while he is standing Sideways, so he started leaving his back legs out of the box and peeing on the floor right against the box. That is when I went to Walmart and got a low but long Sterilite box and it's working great so far!





> That's exactly what happened with Kodi as he started getting a bit bigger, and why we switched to the Rascal Dog litter box. The Walmart Sterlite would have been a lot cheaper, though!​


I'm looking at a couple boxes to use as litter boxes for Maccabee. The first is a Sterilite box measuring 23" x 16" x 6" and the second is a Container Store box measuring 27-1/8" x 16" x 6-1/4"

I like the idea of 4 extra inches with the Container Store box, but I'm wondering if it will be too tall for him to jump into. I guess I could get one of each (both for less than the price of the discontinued SecondNature box!). I want to place an extra box or two in the living area and kitchen so we can give him more freedom (when we are able to pay attention to him), and one for upstairs in my bedroom for right before bed and early mornings.


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## Carefulove

HannahBearsMom said:


> I'm looking at a couple boxes to use as litter boxes for Maccabee. The first is a Sterilite box measuring 23" x 16" x 6" and the second is a Container Store box measuring 27-1/8" x 16" x 6-1/4"
> 
> I like the idea of 4 extra inches with the Container Store box, but I'm wondering if it will be too tall for him to jump into. I guess I could get one of each (both for less than the price of the discontinued SecondNature box!). I want to place an extra box or two in the living area and kitchen so we can give him more freedom (when we are able to pay attention to him), and one for upstairs in my bedroom for right before bed and early mornings.


Laurie,

The one I have (Sterilite from Walmart) is roughly 26 x 15 x 7. Toby has been using it for about 2 months already. (the Box is Clear with a Light Blue cover and snaps on the ends-which I took off)


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## Tom King

I just measured the black, plastic mortar pan that we used on trial, and it's 6 1/4" high. I didn't expect him to jump in, but he did, as did several of his siblings. It's a little higher than I'd like for the little ones to jump out of, but we just tried it to see if they would. They just used it out on the screened porch when they were playing.

He might need a low step to make it easier to get into those you stated the size of, when he's not so playful.

Pam ordered one of these: http://www.johnnyseeds.com/p-7893-soil-blockingpotting-tray.aspx You can see it in the video on that page. We're using this for the second stage now.

It's exactly 24" wide, so would work good in an expen. It's 8" tall along the back and tapers down to 2 1/2" across the front. Green is the only color. I think it would work good for a "front feet in only" problem, since it's plenty wide enough to keep the litter pushed to the back. It would be great if it was a little taller across the front. We'll most likely use it for the second stage for another litter.

The ideal one is just not available, or at least we haven't found it yet with much time searching.


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## krandall

Tom King said:


> The ideal one is just not available, or at least we haven't found it yet with much time searching.


I really, really like the two Rascal Dog boxes we got for Kodi. They are not cheap, but they are really sturdy, very stable, even with an adult dog jumping in and out, have plenty of "turning radius" which Kodi seems to find necessary for pooping in a litter box:biggrin1: and are high enough on the sides to keep litter mostly contained. (much better than the Second Nature litter boxes) we also found that the Second Nature ones becme brittle pretty quickly. I dropped one on the driveway while I was hosing it out after a camping trip, and shattered a corner.

I'm going to look into the Sterlite box idea, because I like the idea of having a box that you could snap a cover over while traveling. That's one of the reasons we like the Rascal Dog... We snap the grate over the ltter when we are moving our travel trailer and the litter stays put. But the Rascal Dogs are big and heavy for hotel room travel. It would be nice to have a slightly smaller, lighter weight, covered box for taking to hotel rooms for shows. While he always poops outside when we're staying in a hotel, I like to be able to let him pee in the morning before I put all my clothes on to take him down the elevator and outside!


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## Carefulove

krandall said:


> I'm going to look into the Sterlite box idea, because I like the idea of having a box that you could snap a cover over while traveling...


While in the house, the cover goes nicely under the box.


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## krandall

Carefulove said:


> While in the house, the cover goes nicely under the box.


Nice! Definitely have to check that out!


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## Charleysmom

Tom King said:


> I just measured the black, plastic mortar pan that we used on trial, and it's 6 1/4" high. I didn't expect him to jump in, but he did, as did several of his siblings. It's a little higher than I'd like for the little ones to jump out of, but we just tried it to see if they would. They just used it out on the screened porch when they were playing.
> 
> He might need a low step to make it easier to get into those you stated the size of, when he's not so playful.
> 
> Pam ordered one of these: http://www.johnnyseeds.com/p-7893-soil-blockingpotting-tray.aspx You can see it in the video on that page.
> 
> It's exactly 24" wide, so would work good in an expen. It's 8" tall along the back and tapers down to 2 1/2" across the front. Green is the only color. I think it would work good for a "front feet in only" problem, since it's plenty wide enough to keep the litter pushed to the back. It would be great if it was a little taller across the front. We'll most likely use it for the second stage for another litter.
> 
> The ideal one is just not available, or at least we haven't found it yet with much time searching.


Just wondering how the green box from Johnny seeds is working out??


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## Charleysmom

krandall said:


> I really, really like the two Rascal Dog boxes we got for Kodi. They are not cheap, but they are really sturdy, very stable, even with an adult dog jumping in and out, have plenty of "turning radius" which Kodi seems to find necessary for pooping in a litter box:biggrin1: and are high enough on the sides to keep litter mostly contained. (much better than the Second Nature litter boxes) we also found that the Second Nature ones becme brittle pretty quickly. I dropped one on the driveway while I was hosing it out after a camping trip, and shattered a corner.
> 
> I'm going to look into the Sterlite box idea, because I like the idea of having a box that you could snap a cover over while traveling. That's one of the reasons we like the Rascal Dog... We snap the grate over the ltter when we are moving our travel trailer and the litter stays put. But the Rascal Dogs are big and heavy for hotel room travel. It would be nice to have a slightly smaller, lighter weight, covered box for taking to hotel rooms for shows. While he always poops outside when we're staying in a hotel, I like to be able to let him pee in the morning before I put all my clothes on to take him down the elevator and outside!


Is this the one you have? [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Rascal-Dog-Litter-Little-Squirt/dp/B00301C73E/ref=sr_1_1?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1331838891&sr=1-1"]Amazon.com: Rascal Dog Litter Box "Little Squirt" (tm) - 23 by 16 by 6 FOR TOY BREEDS: Pet Supplies[/ame]


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## krandall

loriabigail said:


> Is this the one you have? Amazon.com: Rascal Dog Litter Box "Little Squirt" (tm) - 23 by 16 by 6 FOR TOY BREEDS: Pet Supplies


No, that is for very small dogs. It would work for now, but I think it's too small for most adult Havs. Go to the Rascal Dog site, and look for the "Big Squirt". I'd get it without the grass mat and attractant. For use with litter, you won't need either, and it's less expensive.


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## Charleysmom

ok thx. the big squirt it is.


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## Tom King

We haven't used the green box yet, since all the puppies left before it came, but it looks like it would work fine. It would be better if the front side was a little higher, but I still think it will work. It is nice that the outside width is exactly 24" to fit perfectly in a 2' wide expen setup.

Litter might get drug out over the low front easier, but the back is 8" high. It's also pretty wide the other way, so we may use it with the litter pushed more to the back to see how that works.

I think it would be good for a boy that has the front feet in only problem, by keeping the litter pushed to the back, so he has to get all the way in to get his feet on the litter. That's just a guess though.


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## Charleysmom

It looks like it's made of a sturdy plastic. I was looking at print boxes but the height is even all around.


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## HannahBearsMom

I roughed up the bottom of the sterlite box so it is less slippery inside. I'm hoping that Maccabee will use the box now that he can stand in it without having to "balance."

Poop question. Maccabee almost lays poops in his litter box,but boh last night and tonight he pooped in the same spot in the living room. Do I need to treat that area (carpet) like I treat where he pees? The poop was solid both times.


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## krandall

HannahBearsMom said:


> I roughed up the bottom of the sterlite box so it is less slippery inside. I'm hoping that Maccabee will use the box now that he can stand in it without having to "balance."
> 
> Poop question. Maccabee almost lays poops in his litter box,but boh last night and tonight he pooped in the same spot in the living room. Do I need to treat that area (carpet) like I treat where he pees? The poop was solid both times.


Yes! You definitely need to treat the places he pooped with Natures Miracle or another enzyme cleaner. If they can smell ANYTHING they are likely to do it in the same place again.

I would also restrict his access to that room unless you are with him, and WATCHING him every moment. Two accidents in the same place is dangerously close to becoming a "habit" rather than an "accident". Remember that you want to set things up so that the HABITS he develops are good ones!


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## Tom King

Laurie, Call and talk to Pam. He shouldn't be having accidents now.


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## HannahBearsMom

Tom King said:


> Laurie, Call and talk to Pam. He shouldn't be having accidents now.


Thanks, Tom. I'll call Pam this evening or tomorrow.


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## Charleysmom

Hi Laurie, It sounds to me like Maccabbee is getting too much freedom. Maybe you can restrict his access to other parts of the house. So far, Cooper hasn't had any accidents in the house. All mistakes have been inside his expen only. I am not giving him free roam in the house at all yet. Actually, I want him to be 100% litter trained and hosuetrained before he does. This doesn't mean he's in the kitchen only. He's allowed in the LR but only with me and only on his designated spot. Plus, he know that he can only leave his expen if he has pottied. before bed he has to potty before he comes upstairs and then he gets to hang in bed with me for a half hour or so once again on his designated place. I have a few pillow shams that I use for this purpose. before I put him back in his crate for the nite, we go back downstairs to the expen. I tell him to "go potty" and he knows that he cannot come out again until he does. Sometimes he goes immediately, sometimes it's within minutes. But Cooper knows that if he wants freedom he has to potty. 
All day it's in the expen, potty to come out, freedom for an hour or so, back in the expen, potty to come out etc etc. Actually very often as I'm getting the expen ready to close up, Cooper goes to his litter pan and potties. I say "good boy", and open the expen back up and he gets his freedom again. It's like we're doing a dance all day long and each step reinforces the next. 
Anyway, I know it sounds very restricted but he's such a happy guy. And slowly he's actually getting more freedom. Now when he's out of the expen he has the whole kitchen. Two weeks ago it was only a small portion of the kitchen. When I leave the kitchen he goes back in the expanded expen. He knows when I come back he will have to potty again in order to come out. And he does. And so on. 
I'm trying to say, that the restriction really works like a charm. And I'm never worried about him peeing where he's not supposed to. That said, he has been peeing on his little bed which is actually just a towel or blanky. It seems every few days he does this and I haven't figured out why yet, but it's always in the expen. That's his learning center. 

I hope this is helpful.


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## HannahBearsMom

My routine is similar, except I put his litter box in the living room or kitchen when he is in there. Starting oday, he's making litter box trips every 15 minutes when he's out of the expen. And yesterday, we blocked off the areas of te living room where he previously peed so he has less free area.


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## Charleysmom

I'm not sure what Pam would say but I wonder if it's a good idea to move the litter box from Kitchen to LR. Maybe it would be better to get him 100% with it in just one location and then go from there. 
I'm curious to hear what Pam recommends.


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## HannahBearsMom

loriabigail said:


> I'm not sure what Pam would say but I wonder if it's a good idea to move the litter box from Kitchen to LR. Maybe it would be better to get him 100% with it in just one location and then go from there.
> I'm curious to hear what Pam recommends.


 I'm waiting to hear from Pam. We've been emailing this morning. Maccabee is 100% in the expen. I can't imagine he'd do better having to go back to the pen, rather than having a litter box closer, out open in the room.

We'llsee what Pam says


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## Charleysmom

keep me posted.


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## Tom King

Anyone using this thread for training their puppies should also read the later thread-link below- that shows our latest modification to our system. This time we will be teaching them to use a grate, as well as the wood pellet litter. It includes some additional pictures of the new setup.

http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=17643

Sorry for the bump of an old thread, but I thought I needed to include the grate use in this thread.


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## Charleysmom

grate use? what will that entail? By the way, just wondering if you found new litter boxes. I'd very much like another one but don't know where to buy it.


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## Tom King

The grate is the one that is part of the Rascal system. It has a box that you put a pad under the grate, and grass over the top. We don't like the artificial grass because of smell issues, but just use the grate over a pad.

Getting boxes that work for the litter became a real issue since Purina stopped making them. We haven't found a suitable replacement.

Litter is still our favorite method too, but there are some parts of dealing with it that don't work out best for some new owners. We're just trying to provide an alternate, but they will also be trained to litter so if anyone prefers it. It's hard to train to litter if they don't get used to it very early.


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## Charleysmom

Thanks tom karen says she uses the rascal boxes i might try one of those
Btw the puppies are adorable there is truly nothing as wonderful as a puppy


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## HannahBearsMom

Charleysmom said:


> grate use? what will that entail? By the way, just wondering if you found new litter boxes. I'd very much like another one but don't know where to buy it.


I picked up a couple of these about 10 days ago. Pam said they have used the same container and it worked fine for the dogs and older pups, but the sides were too high for the new puppies. I've yet set up the one for my house, but Maccabee readily used the one we set up at my fiance's house. Charley is larger than Maccabee, so he should have no problem getting into and out of it.


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## Charleysmom

HannahBearsMom said:


> I picked up a couple of these about 10 days ago. Pam said they have used the same container and it worked fine for the dogs and older pups, but the sides were too high for the new puppies. I've yet set up the one for my house, but Maccabee readily used the one we set up at my fiance's house. Charley is larger than Maccabee, so he should have no problem getting into and out of it.


I went to Tractor Supply today looking for these but they didn't have them. I'll have to try another one. and Maccabbee has no trouble walking into it? By the way, how big is he now? Charley is such a big boy and so good and soooo smart. he learns very quickly now.


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## Tom King

This shows the next stage in our newest system. Here they get both the Rascal grate over pad box, and a litter box beyond. There is some possibility they will learn to pee on the grate, and go farther away into the litter box to poop, but we'll have to see. This is the first time we've done it like this. You can see why the size of the box is important to us. At four weeks, they are going over the back of the Rascal box like nothing.

The expen is an 18" one. The ottoman is so Blanchi, the Mom, can jump in and out easily.


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## HannahBearsMom

Tom King said:


> This shows the next stage in our newest system. Here they get both the Rascal grate over pad box, and a litter box beyond. There is some possibility they will learn to pee on the grate, and go farther away into the litter box to poop, but we'll have to see. This is the first time we've done it like this. You can see why the size of the box is important to us. At four weeks, they are going over the back of the Rascal box like nothing.
> 
> The expen is an 18" one. The ottoman is so Blanchi, the Mom, can jump in and out easily.


Tom,

Why have the puppies so far away from the litter? I know your placement of everything in the expen was not random. So, why not put the litter box on one end, the Rascal on the other end, and the puppies in the middle?


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## Tom King

At this stage we used to use 2 litter boxes. They get to the point that they want to go farther away from their bed to poop. Going farther away has more benefit than simply making it easy for them. The whole game is starting with limited area, and gradually increasing the distances. We don't know how this is going to go. We may switch the two different types of boxes back and forth to encourage use of both at this stage. This will be their sleeping setup for several weeks. They will start to go out to larger and larger play areas several times a day, as before.


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## krandall

Tom King said:


> The grate is the one that is part of the Rascal system. It has a box that you put a pad under the grate, and grass over the top. We don't like the artificial grass because of smell issues, but just use the grate over a pad.
> 
> Getting boxes that work for the litter became a real issue since Purina stopped making them. We haven't found a suitable replacement.
> 
> Litter is still our favorite method too, but there are some parts of dealing with it that don't work out best for some new owners. We're just trying to provide an alternate, but they will also be trained to litter so if anyone prefers it. It's hard to train to litter if they don't get used to it very early.


Tom, FYI, you can fit pellets under the Rascal Dog grate, in their litter box. This is what we do in his pen, when he is not supervised with the litter. While the litter didn't cause his impaction, it didn't help matters when he started eating it (without our knowledge until it passed later) when he was feeling intestinal distress. The vets at Tufts told us that it is very common for a dog who has an upset tummy to eat strange things, only making matters worse. So from that point on, he only has had uncovered litter (which he prefers) when we are home and know he's feeling OK.

We also like the grate over the litter in the trailer... Keeps the litter from getting underfoot in an enclosed area!


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## Tom King

Rascal now sells their box with just the grate so you don't have to buy the grass if you don't want it. Shipping for 2 is the same as 1, since 2 can fit in the shipping box without the grass. We just ordered 2 for 45 dollars each without grass, and with shipping total was something like 105. We've tried the artificial grass before, and it's not for us. We do still have a large piece out on the dog porch, so they do learn what it is.

http://www.rascaldoglitterbox.com/

To order, go to Big Squirt No Grass, on this page: http://www.rascaldoglitterbox.com/purchase.html
It's 25 dollars less each without the grass.

These puppies are preferring the grate, I'm sure because that's what we started them on, but they are getting the hang of the litter too. We are going to put some litter under the grate, like Karen suggested, but we'll switch back and forth to a pad too so they'll be well used to both smells. So far, we've only had one grate, and when it's out being washed, they do use just the pad. Hopefully, these puppies will be multilingual. The grate is a PIA to clean sometimes. I don't think it would be too bad for just one pup.


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## Charleysmom

*Argee table top gardener*

I just found this product as a possible option for the litter pan. It measures 26 by 21. I like that it has an opening like the petmate litter pan.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...ping-_-googleads-_-pla-_-202079522&ci_gpa=pla


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## Tom King

That looks very promising. We need something that's pretty close to exactly 24 inches wide. What would the outside width be if I sliced off those handles?

The first stage for a puppy, in our system when it's first by itself, is an expen folded in to 2x4 with the litter box in one end, so the width is pretty important. Once beyond this stage, it really doesn't matter.

Pam found another potting box that does work, but it's pretty expensive including shipping. I'll see if I can find a link to it.
Here you go. You can't tell much about it from the picture, but it's pretty heavy, with very smooth finish. Only available in green. The entry side is a little low, but it's plenty wide enough to keep the litter pushed to the back.
http://www.johnnyseeds.com/p-7893-soil-blockingpotting-tray.aspx


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## Tom King

I was right about the grate. It's a PIA to keep clean with 6 puppies. We do think the way we used it to start with is good, and will continue to do that. 

What we've come up with is using the grate to start, adding the litter box a little later, and switching back to litter boxes only in the sleeping pen at weaning. There is just no quick way to cleanup with the grate, even with another one to switch out. It's not so bad during the day, but getting up in the night, nothing is easier than litter. I don't even have to wake up all the way. The grate requires time at the sink cleaning it, and if you don't have a dog sink like we do, it would have to be done stooped over a bath tub. Another advantage of the litter is that it either dries out soft poop, or it gets rolled up in small clumps with the litter. With the grate and multiple soft poops, there is no way some won't step in it, and stinky feet is not what we want even for a short time.

They still learned what the grate was early, and will have one or more in their play areas, but not in their sleeping pen. They all use both anyway now, so that worked out well.

If you already have one of the Rascal boxes with the rounded corners on the grate, the new ones do not interchange. She made some changes to the design, and the new grates have square corners. We were lucky that we ordered 2 of the newest design. If you order 2, shipping cost is the same as if you only ordered 1.

To those that voted for piddle pads only in the poll, sorry, it's just not going to work-at least not with our puppies. When I swap out the grate and put a new piddle pad down, it almost takes the 2 of us to keep the puppies from attacking the new piddle pad. They think it's the best thing ever to play with.


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## olivia14

Tom thanks for the photos and site! Wow this is really awesome what you are doing with the puppies! I might try this but not sure if a 3 year old havaneese can be trained to use a little box. I guess it is worth the try though. You are right you have to be ocd to get this task learned.. good job!


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## Tom King

From everything I've heard here on these forums, it's hard to train one to the litter if they weren't started early, or at least have another dog trained to it, to help train the new one.

The litter boxes are on the market again, after several years of having to improvise. They even come in a selection of colors. From a company called something like, Puppy Go Here.

This price on ebay varies from day to day.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/171471566767?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


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## Tom King

We've tried several other things since I started this thread, but have now gone back strictly to just using the litter. The Red litter was started on, and only used the wood pellets, and none of the three ever had an accident in the house, or even on the puppy floor in the big pen, that I remember.


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## olivia14

Thank you & love your videos of the puppies! how adorable they all are!!


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## Tom King

Bumping this up in current view because someone asked me for it.


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## krandall

Always a good reminder of a great system. I LOVE having an indoor potty option for my dogs!!!


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