# Puppy lunging at other dog's face



## ShelbysMama

Shelby is fourteen weeks old. She's been in our home for about a week now, and I'm noticing some things I hope I can get rid of before she's a teenager. 

She likes to lunge at my poodle's face. She doesn't bite, she just sort of jumps at her. I also noticed her doing this to my small cousins. I don't think it's aggressive, I've noticed she's a very, very intent player and rough houser. Is this common in most Havanese puppies? Is this a phase she will grow out of? How can I detour her from this behavior? She's driving my adult poodle crazy and stressing her out.

I've tried holding her on the ground until she relaxes. That seems to help a little. I need to be more persistent with it. Would using a squirt bottle be a good idea? She literally bounces off the walls and doesn't listen to "no".

Any advice would be highly appreciated!


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## krandall

ShelbysMama said:


> Shelby is fourteen weeks old. She's been in our home for about a week now, and I'm noticing some things I hope I can get rid of before she's a teenager.
> 
> She likes to lunge at my poodle's face. She doesn't bite, she just sort of jumps at her. I also noticed her doing this to my small cousins. I don't think it's aggressive, I've noticed she's a very, very intent player and rough houser. Is this common in most Havanese puppies? Is this a phase she will grow out of? How can I detour her from this behavior? She's driving my adult poodle crazy and stressing her out.
> 
> I've tried holding her on the ground until she relaxes. That seems to help a little. I need to be more persistent with it. Would using a squirt bottle be a good idea? She literally bounces off the walls and doesn't listen to "no".
> 
> Any advice would be highly appreciated!


Absolutely DO NOT hold her down, squirt her or do other negative things to her! That is the best way I can think of to turn play into aggression. A lot of it is puppy over-exuberance, although I don't think that particular behavior is common among Havs. I would supervise her time with both your poodle and your young cousins carefully. Do not ALLOW people to rough house with her. Instead, find games that tire her out by running. For instance, use a training lure, and have her chase that around until you tucker her out. Or let her RLH in the yard several times a day. Or play fetch with her, or take her on long walks. Anything fun that allows her to burn off the excess energy.

Once you're sure YOU are doing your part by letting her burn off that excess energy, if she still is jumping inappropriately at either people or dogs, pick her up and put her in her ex-pen or crate for a time out. The time out doesn't need to be long, only until she's settled down a bit. It may take a number of times putting her back in the crate, but she WILL get the message that the wild behavior won't be tolerated.


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## ShelbysMama

Maybe I should clarify on a few things. I walk/run with Shelby on a regular basis. She exhibits this behavior even when she's tuckered out. No one plays rough with her or anything like that, as soon as my cousins plopped down on the floor she started in with this.

I don't hold her down to the point where I hurt her. We use the same technique seen on the Dog Whisperer with Cesar Millan, and also use the "ah-ah-ah" guttural sound. So far this is the ONLY thing that's worked, but I'd like to stop the behavior all together. She's learning to spend time in her crate, but so far she whines and barks nonstop. I don't want her to think her crate is where she goes as a punishment, I want her to associate it with good things.

Has anyone had a puppy outgrow this? She's driving my poodle nuts and really stressing her out.


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## StarrLhasa

This behavior is not one that is likely to pass without intervention, I am sorry to say.

Puppies tend to like to "get in your face." That's one of the reasons that puppies and small dogs jump up on people. Dogs also want to read their humans' faces because they are attuned to our expressions and emotions. There have been some really interesting show on Public Television about the relationship between dogs and people.

Does your puppy lick the cousins' faces or push her nose up to their skin? Were the kids scared by the behavior?

The time out in the crate doesn't have to be like a small child's time out (ie. no toys or fun stuff). The puppy can have a stuffed Kong or other chew that she can play with quietly for a short time.

Something that you can teach her is "Off!" Another name for it - a longer one - is Four on the Floor. 

We do not want our dogs jumping up on little kids or adults, but you will be surprised at how many people sabotage the training by giving the dog pets wile the dogs is jumping up on the person's leg, thus reinforcing the unwanted behavior. :frusty:


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## krandall

ShelbysMama said:


> Maybe I should clarify on a few things. I walk/run with Shelby on a regular basis. She exhibits this behavior even when she's tuckered out. No one plays rough with her or anything like that, as soon as my cousins plopped down on the floor she started in with this.
> 
> I don't hold her down to the point where I hurt her. We use the same technique seen on the Dog Whisperer with Cesar Millan, and also use the "ah-ah-ah" guttural sound. So far this is the ONLY thing that's worked, but I'd like to stop the behavior all together. She's learning to spend time in her crate, but so far she whines and barks nonstop. I don't want her to think her crate is where she goes as a punishment, I want her to associate it with good things.
> 
> Has anyone had a puppy outgrow this? She's driving my poodle nuts and really stressing her out.


Just because Cesar Milan does it, doesn't make it right. The only thing this technique accomplishes is teaching your puppy to fear you.

I'm glad you are making sure she gets lots of exercise. If your cousins getting down on the floor gets her going, you are going to have to ask them not to (or keep them separated from her) until she gets a little older and learns better. It may very well be that she feels intimidated with them down on eye-to-eye level.

Putting her in her crate (or an ex-pen) is, by far, the best way to deal with this. If you haven't yet gotten her to accept her crate, and you are worried about her progress in that area backsliding, use and ex-pen instead.

She probably won't just "grow out of it" without intervention, but she certainly can learn better manners with proper training. In the mean time, you need to give your older pooch her own space. Keep them separated with a baby gate, or in separate rooms unless the puppy is really calm (like wanting to sleep in your lap) and will let your poodle do the approaching. (if she wants to)


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## ShelbysMama

I'm seeing quite a bit of progress by taking her down to the floor and making her lie down when she gets too rough when playing. After she stops squirming and acting out I talk to her calmly and give her a little doggy massage. I put her in her crate with toys when my poodle needs time on her own, and when I'm at work. The past few days she's actually volunteered herself to go in her crate, so I'm happy to say I think her issues are slowly being resolved. 

The only thing I need to work with her on now is her barking when I leave the room.


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## davetgabby

krandall said:


> Absolutely DO NOT hold her down, squirt her or do other negative things to her! That is the best way I can think of to turn play into aggression. A lot of it is puppy over-exuberance, although I don't think that particular behavior is common among Havs. I would supervise her time with both your poodle and your young cousins carefully. Do not ALLOW people to rough house with her. Instead, find games that tire her out by running. For instance, use a training lure, and have her chase that around until you tucker her out. Or let her RLH in the yard several times a day. Or play fetch with her, or take her on long walks. Anything fun that allows her to burn off the excess energy.
> 
> Once you're sure YOU are doing your part by letting her burn off that excess energy, if she still is jumping inappropriately at either people or dogs, pick her up and put her in her ex-pen or crate for a time out. The time out doesn't need to be long, only until she's settled down a bit. It may take a number of times putting her back in the crate, but she WILL get the message that the wild behavior won't be tolerated.


right on Karen


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## davetgabby

krandall said:


> Just because Cesar Milan does it, doesn't make it right. The only thing this technique accomplishes is teaching your puppy to fear you.
> 
> I'm glad you are making sure she gets lots of exercise. If your cousins getting down on the floor gets her going, you are going to have to ask them not to (or keep them separated from her) until she gets a little older and learns better. It may very well be that she feels intimidated with them down on eye-to-eye level.
> 
> Putting her in her crate (or an ex-pen) is, by far, the best way to deal with this. If you haven't yet gotten her to accept her crate, and you are worried about her progress in that area backsliding, use and ex-pen instead.
> 
> She probably won't just "grow out of it" without intervention, but she certainly can learn better manners with proper training. In the mean time, you need to give your older pooch her own space. Keep them separated with a baby gate, or in separate rooms unless the puppy is really calm (like wanting to sleep in your lap) and will let your poodle do the approaching. (if she wants to)


Karen , love this part .... "Just because Cesar Milan does it, doesn't make it right. The only thing this technique accomplishes is teaching your puppy to fear you." Words of wisdom .


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## ShelbysMama

I definitely do NOT want Shelby to fear me, however I want her to respect me. She's not scared or fearful when I hold her on her side until she calms down. I really don't get how this is a negative training tool. Could someone explain it to me? Putting her in her crate as a punishment for bad behavior doesn't work, she doesn't correlate the two things, and furthermore I don't want her to think her crate is where she goes when she's "bad". 

Maybe people are misunderstanding what I mean, IDk. I say NO firmly, then I gently, however confidently, place on hand on her neck and the other on her back, say DOWN, and make her lie on her side or her back on the floor until she calms down and stops squirming. As soon as she does I talk to her in a happy tone of voice and pet her, then let her up again. This is the ONLY thing that's worked.


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## davetgabby

ShelbysMama said:


> I definitely do NOT want Shelby to fear me, however I want her to respect me. She's not scared or fearful when I hold her on her side until she calms down. I really don't get how this is a negative training tool. Could someone explain it to me? Putting her in her crate as a punishment for bad behavior doesn't work, she doesn't correlate the two things, and furthermore I don't want her to think her crate is where she goes when she's "bad".
> 
> Maybe people are misunderstanding what I mean, IDk. I say NO firmly, then I gently, however confidently, place on hand on her neck and the other on her back, say DOWN, and make her lie on her side or her back on the floor until she calms down and stops squirming. As soon as she does I talk to her in a happy tone of voice and pet her, then let her up again. This is the ONLY thing that's worked.


 Here is one of many articles on The Alpha Roll http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/alpha-roll-or-alpha-role

A more important word to use in this would be trust ,rather than respect. Dogs do not like being held down. Same as they don't like being hugged or restrained. You should teach her to settle on her own rather than manually putting her on her side or back . A simple down is usually enough. Here is an article on how to use a time out.

1. The crate and the time-out 
Yes, you can use a crate for time-outs without causing "crate-hate." Do you like your bedroom? Sure you do-even if you don't want to be there on a Friday night. Your dog can like his crate too, even if he doesn't want to be there while scheming to scam some chicken off the dining room table. Crates are okay for time-outs, because it isn't the crate that is punishing&#8230; it is the loss of freedom in the middle of fun times that is punishing (see my Summer 2004 article for more on rewards and punishment). The same reasoning extends to children: they can be sent to their room as a consequence for misbehaviour without learning to fear or hate their room. Your dog will only become afraid of his crate if bad things happen while he is in there-so never scold him while he is inside. Time-outs don't need to be long; 30 seconds to 3 minutes is plenty. And don't forget to give your Cool Hand Luke a clean slate once he's done his time&#8230; no grudge-holding allowed.

2. "I never use the crate as a punishment; I don't want my puppy to have a bad association."
This is a very common statement I hear, and there is no basis to this. A timeout is used to teach a dog that the behavior that she did resulted in her getting taken away from where she wants to be. If you put her in the crate for a timeout, do so for a short period of time immediately following the inappropriate behavior, such as jumping on you, biting, or chewing on furniture. Then, take her out after 5-30 seconds as long as she is calm and then reward her for anything but the offending behavior. If she performs the inappropriate behavior again say, "Timeout" and repeat. As long as you make sure to reward good behavior and use a timeout for inappropriate behavior, she will learn not to do the inappropriate behavior because it doesn't benefit her. She won't hate the crate itself, she will not like the fact that she was put in there and taken away from all the fun. That is an important distinction. The only caveat to this rule is that dogs that already have separation anxiety often do not like being in crates and can have a panic attack. These dogs are not good candidates for using this timeout strategy. Learn about timeouts and teaching a dog to stop certain behaviors. Jeff Millman

3.Time out! - at your wit's end? Calmly and firmly give your dog a "time out." Pick out a spot - contrary to popular belief the crate is just fine - and place your dog there for a time out. Time outs are not loud, scary or very long: the point of a time out is social isolation, only for 30 seconds or at most a couple of minutes. Make the connection between the undesired behavior and the time out clear, and you'll see an improvement. As a bonus, you'll get a chance to regroup yourself. Eric Goebelbecker

Timeout specifics. Put him in the timeout area for 10 seconds up to a minute at the most and leave the area so he can't see you. Then, come back and say, "Ok, let's try again." Then when he comes out of the area and as he is doing it right you praise him "Thanks for not jumping, it is such a good decision to stay on the ground!" If he jumps, however, he does not get three chances, he immediately gets another timeout.

What you are doing is communicating to him using timing and consistency that his behavior has consequences. He can be with you if he does not jump, but jumping is not appropriate. Incidentally, if he is timed out for jumping and comes out of the timeout area and nips, barks or other inappropriate behavior that you are currently working on, you can instantly time out again.

If you have trouble grabbing him after you say "timeout" have him wear a short leash around the house. I recommend wearing a collar and leash only when you are home to watch him to prevent choking accidents.

You can also manage his behavior or time him out by looping a 4-6 foot leashes over a doorknob and attaching his collar to the leash and walking away. For jumping, you might walk a few feet away and then turn around "Good! You are not jumping!" If you walk closer and he leaves his feet, you would say "Eh! Eh!" and walk away again. This is very effective when guests come over as well.

With timeouts, make sure you focus on the correct behaviors when you take him out of the timeout area or before he makes a mistake. Talk to him or reward him for doing the right thing. Often novice trainers don't pay attention to when their dog until they do something inappropriate. Then the dog gets rewarding for acting up and he will do that again. Focus on the good behavior and your dog will learn to behave much faster http://watchandtrain.com/dogtrainin...sitive-reinforcement-training-strategies.aspx


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## ShelbysMama

I could understand if there was a lot of force involved, but in the method I use there is not. Of course I want my pets to trust me, but realistically I need them to respect me as well. It all goes back to pack dynamics -- if you're not "top dog" in your own pack, your dog will be out of control, or at the very least exhibiting undesirable behavior.

When I put Shelby on the floor, it IS a timeout. I only use the crate when it is absolutely necessary, like when I'm going out of the house and she can't be monitored, when my poodle is eating and needs her own space, etc. It is a dog's natural inbred desire to want to be part of the "pack". My poodle, who is a rescue, was put in a crate for 16 hours a day - every time she did something "bad", every time the woman wanted time to herself, every time the woman went to work, she slept in her crate, ate in her crate, was punished with being in her crate. I see the problems it caused Sophia and I don't really see the point of using the crate for punishment or a way to deal with behavior problems if other training methods work. And even if the dog has lots of toys in their crate, I think they still feel abandoned, stressed, and upset. Just my observations based on my own pets.

Sorry if I'm being difficult, but I really want to understand your reasoning! I'm so confused! Why exactly is making a puppy lie down not an acceptable training method? :frusty:


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## davetgabby

Forcing them down and holding them is aversive to most dogs.


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## ShelbysMama

I'm just really wondering why you're against making a dog lie still, besides the fact that "dog's don't like being put down on the floor". Dogs don't like being put in a crate away from their people, either. Is this training method known to have some sort of detrimental effect?


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## krandall

ShelbysMama said:


> Maybe people are misunderstanding what I mean, IDk. I say NO firmly, then I gently, however confidently, place on hand on her neck and the other on her back, say DOWN, and make her lie on her side or her back on the floor until she calms down and stops squirming. As soon as she does I talk to her in a happy tone of voice and pet her, then let her up again. This is the ONLY thing that's worked.


Except you started this thread because of her bad behaviors, and the fact that she won't stop... so it can't be working all that well.


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## davetgabby

ShelbysMama said:


> I'm just really wondering why you're against making a dog lie still, besides the fact that "dog's don't like being put down on the floor". Dogs don't like being put in a crate away from their people, either. Is this training method known to have some sort of detrimental effect?


I'm not sure you got the gist of the articles.? If you want to learn a much more effective way to calm your dog down here is an article http://pawsitivedawgs.wordpress.com/2010/12/26/premackingforcalm/ Answer me a question , how would you feel if someone forcibly held you down. It's the same way with dogs.


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## krandall

ShelbysMama said:


> I'm just really wondering why you're against making a dog lie still, besides the fact that "dog's don't like being put down on the floor". Dogs don't like being put in a crate away from their people, either. Is this training method known to have some sort of detrimental effect?


You are incorrect that "Dogs don't like being put in a crate away from their people". That statement SHOULD be, "Dogs WHO HAVE NOT BEEN PROPERLY TRAINED don't like being in a crate away from their people". Where is Kodi right now? In a crate that we keep in the family room for him, just because that's where he likes to nap. It doesn't even have a door.

Go get Susan Garrett's "Crate Games". There is NO reason for a dog not to find tremendous value in their crate... it's just up to you to build it. (and it's not hard, it just takes practice) When I finish an agility run with Kodi, after I tell him he's done, he RUNS to his crate, no matter where it is, and sits there WITH THE DOOR WIDE OPEN looking as pleased as punch.

Kodi has an ex-pen with his crate attached which is where he stays when we're out. He's over two now, and there is no reason he HAS to stay there... but he feels safe and secure there. When we thought we might start leaving him loose in the house, every time we came back home, where would we find him? In his crate. Now we just accept that he likes it there better. When we are about to leave, he runs into his pen, we give him a cookie and close the gate. He's perfectly happy until we get back.

I think you are not only confused by some of the incorrect things Cesar Milan teaches, but by your experiences with your rescue poodle. The crate did NOT cause the problems with your poodle. Lack of correct introduction to the crate followed by misuse of the crate caused the problem. It's silly to think that ANYONE would advocate leaving a dog in a crate 16 hours a day, unless it was on enforced rest for an injury.

Animals, in general, don't like being forcibly pinned anywhere, even if it's done gently. Do it to a cat, and you are likely to sustain damage. Horses are the same, birds are the same (our parrot will willingly sit on your finger, but if you try to forcibly "hold her", you are in for a painful bite!). Honestly, I can't think of an animal who DOESN'T get upset at being pinned.

Of course your tiny, weak, puppy eventually submits and "relaxes" (i.e. stops struggling to get away). She's not stupid. But what you are teaching her is that you are a lot bigger and a lot stronger. That's pretty much it. You're lucky that she will STAY smaller and weaker, because this treatment can cause bigger dogs to become dangerous, when they realize that they CAN fight back and win.

It's not that you CAN'T get a dog to do what you want with strong-arm tactics like this. Pinch collars, choke chains, e-collars, etc. can produce a dog who obeys. But not with joy, and only at HUGE expense to the human/dog relationship. I'm a little surprised that you are so concerned about her feelings in terms of putting her in a crate for 30 seconds, but are unwilling to accept the (now well documented) idea that you are damaging your dog'd psyche every time you pin her to the ground.


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## krandall

ShelbysMama said:


> I could understand if there was a lot of force involved, but in the method I use there is not. Of course I want my pets to trust me, but realistically I need them to respect me as well. It all goes back to pack dynamics -- if you're not "top dog" in your own pack, your dog will be out of control, or at the very least exhibiting undesirable behavior.


The idea of pack dynamics and "pack leader" in wolves, let alone dogs, is out-dated and incorrect. Wolves live in family groups, and the "leader" changes depending on the activity. One wolf might lead hunting parties, while a wolf with puppies is DEFINITELY the "leader" near the den.

With dogs, communities are even more loose knit. They don't stay in cohesive packs. They are gregarious, and do form groups, but those groups change, with some dogs coming, others going. Dogs are WAY away from wolves speaking from an evolutionary perspective.

This "pack leader" nonsense is one of the most damaging ideas (and the first one people are willing to glom onto) from the "Dog Whisperer".

I can tell you FOR SURE that my children respect me, and they (mostly) do what I ask of them. They are good young men with with a strong moral compass. I have NEVER held either of them down, nor have I used other forms of corporal punishment. We know a lot more than we did 20 years ago in terms of behavior modification, whether we're talking horses (where I have close to 40 years of experience) Kids (20+ years) or dogs.


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## davetgabby

Well said Karen , I just wanted to give you another article. http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance statement.pdf Four pages


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## Suzi

Ive been out of town and just got a chance to read this trend. It is really hard when you find what you think is a good training center and find out practices have actually been bad advice. As a matter of fact not only one professional trainer but two others have in both Karen's and Dave's opinion given bad advice.
Zoeys puppy class we sat in a circle and passed the pups around and made them be on their backs on our laps it was forceful . I'm confused if that training session was also not good for a puppy. Zoey was also barking a lot at the other puppys I was never really given any advice that I can remember that worked I think she just told me to say ah ah at first we were not suppose to say no because it was negative. After 8 weeks of her barking at the other puppy's my trainer said it's time to get a bit more assertive with her and I was taught to hold her collar and give it a slight shake and say no. I mentioned that technique and was told on the form that was not good.But That didn't work either. 
The person who taught me to put her to the ground is a breeder friend who has raised a bunch of dogs. She thought Zoey was protecting me and she was acting to be the Alfa and I needed to nip that in the butt. My friend probably is a bit old school she also probably would have given one of her kids a spanking instead of time out . Just like my Parents did. Some folks from that generation think kids aren't disciplined enough.
My breeder friend explained that she uses the head to the ground from watching mother dogs train young puppy's. A mother dog will put her paw on the puppy to stop them from behavior she doesn't want them doing. it made sense to me and I never felt like doing that was harmful to Zoey and I know for sure that she is not by any means fearful of me. I do agree with the article that we are not dogs, I get very confused as to how to train right especially when their are so many different opinion's on how to do it. 
I think right now what bothers me is that I took someones advice that she was protecting me. I followed her training advice It has worked as far as her not barking at other dogs anymore. Or she has just gotten more conferable around other dogs who knows. I really feel bad if I harmed her in any way. 
My question would be how do you tell the difference between fear and aggression.:ear:


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## krandall

We've been over this ground before, Suzi. Unfortunately, the dog training industry is large and unregulated. ANYONE can call themselves a dog trainer, hang up a sign and start taking in clients. It's not surprising that you've run into more than one trainer who uses force-based training methods. It's not that they don't ever work. The problem is what they do to your relationship with your dog. (and that they can also, in some dogs, LEAD to aggressive behaviors)

One thing that struck me, in your story about Zoey and the big dog is that Zoey ran AWAY and you had to go get her when she was frightened by the big dog. We were taught in our puppy class to sit in a chair and have the puppies on the floor. If they got frightened, they would run back and sit under our chairs until they felt braver again. But they didn't run AWAY... they ran TOWARD their owners. Kodi does that to this day. If we're down at the beach, and another dog gets too rough, he makes a bee-line for my feet.

I don't think Zoey's relationship with you is as good as you think it is. And a large part of that is because of the aversive training methods you continue to use.

That said, it is NOT too late! If you really want the BEST relationship you can have with your dog, you will stop the aversive techniques you have been using. You will try to find a good POSITIVE trainer in your area. If that's not possible, there are PLENTY of internet and book sources of information. You know, you just started a thread about your "gut feeling" about Zoey and the big dog. You have to use (or develop!) a "gut feeling" about what is right in training. I am lucky that I was referred to a great positive training center from the start. But I can tell you from years of working with horses that there were a few times when I paid a lot of money to ride in a training clinic, thought the instructor's methods were not right for my horse, made a polite excuse and packed my horse up and went home. I will NOT use methods on my animals that I feel are not in their best interests.

As far as watching a mother dog and doing what she does, do you REALLY think that a puppy doesn't know the difference between its mother and a human? And do you think that a mother dog would still be using that approach on a 9 month old puppy? The answer to both questions is, "no". As I said to the OP, all holding a dog down teaches them is that you are bigger and stronger than they are. You are lucky that, in the case of a Havanese, that will continue. Because with a big dog, eventually they learn that THEY are stronger. (though even a small dog could learn to bite using this tactic)

And the baloney about older people thinking that kids who don't get spanked aren't disciplined enough is just that... baloney. DISCIPLINE is completely possible, and has been PROVEN to work better WITHOUT hitting, spanking or other forms of corporal punishment. My parents spanked too. That was all they knew. It wasn't because it was a better way, but because the KNEW no other way. My Dad regularly compliments me on the way I've raised my kids, and they have NEVER been hit. He occasionally has worried that he should have known better. I've told him that he DIDN'T know better, and raised us the best way he knew. (but truth be told, I WAS afraid of him when I was little)

But we DO know better now, not only for raising children, but for training animals as well. Forceful, coercive training methods show only that the person doing the training doesn't have the skills to train the animal in a positive way. If they did, they wouldn't need to resort to strong arm, aversive training methods.

Sorry, but with ALL we know about behavior modification CROSS SPECIES at this point in time, it astounds me how many people think it's OK to use these methods in their training.

Oh, and in terms of your last question... fear and aggression are not mutually exclusive. Fear is the most common CAUSE of aggression.


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## ShelbysMama

krandall said:


> Except you started this thread because of her bad behaviors, and the fact that she won't stop... so it can't be working all that well.


I started this thread before I started using any training tool consistently. After I started making her lie still, her behavior improved. Perhaps this isn't a good training tool for your dog, but it seems to work with Shelby. Shelby is an extremely confident, well adjusted dog. She's not timid, and she has a lot of spunk. I wouldn't recommend doing it to a dog that's been abused or anything, certainly, but I don't think Shelby finds it "aversive". She's just upset that Mama took her away from play time. And as for mother dogs disciplining, they do take their babies to the floor and hold them there until they lie still. I even saw this when I picked up Shelby from the breeder, and Shelby was 13 weeks at the time. When the puppies were acting up, i.e chasing Mom dog around, biting her, lunging her, she'd growl and then grab the puppy by the neck and make them lie still. Mom dog wasn't hurting the puppy, she was just saying "I'm serious!"

As for my poodle, yes it was the owners irresponsibility. Sophia is better with the crate now, and I don't doubt your dog goes in the crate without a door. Sophia likes the crate now, she feels it's her space when she needs to rest away from Shelby's puppy antics. And though Shelby is working on being in her crate, I refuse to use it as a punishment tool, EVER. Shelby will never go in her crate as a punishment, she will only have to go in there when absolutely necessary. I hope someday she'll go in there on her own accord, but if not, that's okay too.

I appreciate everyone's feedback and advice, even if I don't full understand the reasoning behind it or feel that it's something I can apply to my pets. I hope we can agree to disagree!


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## krandall

ShelbysMama said:


> I started this thread before I started using any training tool consistently. After I started making her lie still, her behavior improved. Perhaps this isn't a good training tool for your dog, but it seems to work with Shelby. Shelby is an extremely confident, well adjusted dog. She's not timid, and she has a lot of spunk. I wouldn't recommend doing it to a dog that's been abused or anything, certainly, but I don't think Shelby finds it "aversive". She's just upset that Mama took her away from play time. And as for mother dogs disciplining, they do take their babies to the floor and hold them there until they lie still. I even saw this when I picked up Shelby from the breeder, and Shelby was 13 weeks at the time. When the puppies were acting up, i.e chasing Mom dog around, biting her, lunging her, she'd growl and then grab the puppy by the neck and make them lie still. Mom dog wasn't hurting the puppy, she was just saying "I'm serious!"
> 
> As for my poodle, yes it was the owners irresponsibility. Sophia is better with the crate now, and I don't doubt your dog goes in the crate without a door. Sophia likes the crate now, she feels it's her space when she needs to rest away from Shelby's puppy antics. And though Shelby is working on being in her crate, I refuse to use it as a punishment tool, EVER. Shelby will never go in her crate as a punishment, she will only have to go in there when absolutely necessary. I hope someday she'll go in there on her own accord, but if not, that's okay too.
> 
> I appreciate everyone's feedback and advice, even if I don't full understand the reasoning behind it or feel that it's something I can apply to my pets. I hope we can agree to disagree!


It has only been 3 days since your original post, so you really don't KNOW whether your technique is going to prove beneficial in the long run, let alone what negative side effects there may be. Your "dog" is still a TINY puppy. She may be well adjusted now, but poor training practices can change that... just probably not in 3 days. You are only at the very beginning of your training time with him, which will, with a little luck, continue over the next 14-15 years.

As far as bitches holding pups down, I never said they didn't. (though I stand by my statement that they wouldn't be doing it with a 9 month old adolescent) What I said was that your PUPPY KNOWS that you are NOT a dog, and NOT her "Mama". You are a human being. She knows the difference.

I think it is you who has an aversion to crating, not your dog, but be that as it may, we have offered other solutions than the crate itself. You can use an ex-pen. (I have mentioned this several times) You can also TEACH your puppy to stay on a completely open bed if you prefer. Again, I refer you to Susan Garrett's site on how to do this. Will it take a little more effort on your part? Sure. But it will reward you with a dog who TRULY respects you as a LEADER, not as an "enforcer".

Unfortunately, you aren't the only person who will continue to use aversive training methods with your puppy. But I (and Dave) will continue to comment on them when they come up. Dave has posted a number of articles for you to read, yet you say you still don't understand. Have you read them? This isn't based on opinion of what works for "my dog" or "your dog", it is based on a LARGE body of behavioral research. Dave and I can only do the best we can to educate people here. If they don't want to learn, there is nothing more we can do.


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## ShelbysMama

I really didn't join this site to argue. I really just wanted to understand your perspective, but I don't, so it's safe to say I think I should stop commenting back. I don't want to come off quarrelsome. Yes, I did read some of the articles. I understand that your methods work for you, and I respect that. I just hope you can respect the way I discipline my dog. It hurts to be nearly accused abuse. That's what kind of gets to me. I would never abuse my pets. Making a puppy lie still is nowhere close to abuse. 

And yes I think it's safe to say that the method of making her lie still and calm down IS working, based on the two days that I and others have been working with her. No fix is overnight, but she's making tons of progress. People have commented on it, so it's not just me.

Can we please agree to disagree on this subject krandall? I respect opinions and I'm sure your methods work best for your pets, but not every human or dog is alike and therefor different methods work for different individuals.


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## krandall

ShelbysMama said:


> I really didn't join this site to argue. I really just wanted to understand your perspective, but I don't, so it's safe to say I think I should stop commenting back. I don't want to come off quarrelsome. Yes, I did read some of the articles. I understand that your methods work for you, and I respect that. I just hope you can respect the way I discipline my dog. It hurts to be nearly accused abuse. That's what kind of gets to me. I would never abuse my pets. Making a puppy lie still is nowhere close to abuse.
> 
> And yes I think it's safe to say that the method of making her lie still and calm down IS working, based on the two days that I and others have been working with her. No fix is overnight, but she's making tons of progress. People have commented on it, so it's not just me.
> 
> Can we please agree to disagree on this subject krandall? I respect opinions and I'm sure your methods work best for your pets, but not every human or dog is alike and therefor different methods work for different individuals.


As I said, this is not a matter of my opinion vs. yours. It is an area that has been extensively studied and scientifically documented. And while I do not think you are purposely abusing your puppy, I'm afraid I can NOT respect your methods.


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## Suzi

One thing that struck me, in your story about Zoey and the big dog is that Zoey ran AWAY and you had to go get her when she was frightened by the big dog. We were taught in our puppy class to sit in a chair and have the puppies on the floor. If they got frightened, they would run back and sit under our chairs until they felt braver again. But they didn't run AWAY... they ran TOWARD their owners. Kodi does that to this day. If we're down at the beach, and another dog gets too rough, he makes a bee-line for my feet. 

I don't think Zoey's relationship with you is as good as you think it is. And a large part of that is because of the aversive training methods you continue to use.
Very interesting because Zoey ran with her tail behind her legs away from the Bernese mt dog you don't think she has a very good relationship with me.Our class never had training for fear. Like I said we did pass the puppy and I guess that was wrong. We let Zoey go at her own pace in class and she never did play with the other dogs. Although if I did do it all over agian I would have not taken that class only because of the size of all the other 3 puppys. The biggest problem I have is that I don't do enough training. So thank goodness my adverse training methods are few and far between. I have know idea why I am so lazey at training. Maddie hasn't really been trained either but she at least is socialized and comfortable around new situations. eace:


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## ShelbysMama

How could anyone begin to make assumptions about someone else's relationship with their pet without ever having observed the pet/owner?

I'm so confused about this whole thread. Sigh. :suspicious:

I think people should stop with the word aversive. If you think it's harmful training, then say harmful psychologically, or psychologically detrimental. Aversive is on a whole other level and makes it seem like you're accusing the pet owners of being abusive JMHO ... Here is something to think about for those of you who use the word.
*
aversive conditioning
 
-noun Psychology, Psychiatry *.
a type of extreme behavior conditioning in which noxious stimuli are associated with undesirable or unwanted behavior that is to be modified or abolished, *as the use of nausea-inducing drugs in the treatment of alcoholism, or electric shock*

*a·ver·sion*
-noun
a strong feeling of hated, opposition, repugnance, or antipathy

*"a type of extreme behavior conditioning in which noxious stimuli are associated with undesirable or unwanted behavior"*

And here is the definition for "*noxious*".

*nox·ious*
-adjective
1.
harmful or injurious to health or physical well-being, causing death or injury: noxious fumes.
2.
morally harmful; corrupting; pernicious: a noxious plan to spread dissension.

So holding a puppy still on the floor is noxious? In order to qualify as aversive conditioning, this would have to be the case, per the clinical definition. I'm sorry, I just couldn't let this one fly. Since I have a degree in psychology it makes me particularly annoyed when people misuse clinical definitions that are very serious and shouldn't be applied to quotidian situations. These words are to be used for HUMANS, not for pets. Because honestly, if someone is using training methods on their pets that can qualify as aversive, it is abuse, because it would have to cause significant physical injury or leave the dog severely scarred emotionally. And that is why I have a problem with this -- do you want to accuse people of abusing their pets? Because you are when you use such harsh words.


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## krandall

Suzi said:


> The biggest problem I have is that I don't do enough training. So thank goodness my adverse training methods are few and far between. I have know idea why I am so lazey at training. Maddie hasn't really been trained either but she at least is socialized and comfortable around new situations. eace:


Some dogs need more training than others. If you spent a little more time on it (and it only needs to be 5 minutes, a few times a day!) your smart little Havie girl would be doing head stands with positive training methods, and you wouldn't HAVE to resort to aversive methods.

I don't like aversive training methods period, but I have some sympathy for someone who's got a really tough dog and has really tried positive training and still isn't making much progress. But I gotta say, Suzi, that to use aversives because you're too lazy to train a sweet, soft, biddable dog in a positive manner is just plain wrong.

Training dogs is like raising kids. If you approach it with the right attitude, it's incredibly rewarding, even fun. But there are NO QUICK FIXES, and the training must be on-going if you want a dog who is a really great member of the family. EVERY time you interact with your dog, whether the interaction is positive or negative, you are teaching your dog something. That's pretty powerful. Make sure each one of those encounters moves you in the direction you want to go, and AWAY from behaviors you want to diminish.


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## krandall

ShelbysMama said:


> How could anyone begin to make assumptions about someone else's relationship with their pet without ever having observed the pet/owner?
> 
> I'm so confused about this whole thread. Sigh. :suspicious:
> 
> I think people should stop with the word aversive. If you think it's harmful training, then say harmful psychologically, or psychologically detrimental. Aversive is on a whole other level and makes it seem like you're accusing the pet owners of being abusive JMHO ... Here is something to think about for those of you who use the word.
> *
> aversive conditioning
> 
> -noun Psychology, Psychiatry *.
> a type of extreme behavior conditioning in which noxious stimuli are associated with undesirable or unwanted behavior that is to be modified or abolished, *as the use of nausea-inducing drugs in the treatment of alcoholism, or electric shock*
> 
> *a·ver·sion*
> -noun
> a strong feeling of hated, opposition, repugnance, or antipathy
> 
> *"a type of extreme behavior conditioning in which noxious stimuli are associated with undesirable or unwanted behavior"*
> 
> And here is the definition for "*noxious*".
> 
> *nox·ious*
> -adjective
> 1.
> harmful or injurious to health or physical well-being, causing death or injury: noxious fumes.
> 2.
> morally harmful; corrupting; pernicious: a noxious plan to spread dissension.
> 
> So holding a puppy still on the floor is noxious? In order to qualify as aversive conditioning, this would have to be the case, per the clinical definition. I'm sorry, I just couldn't let this one fly. Since I have a degree in psychology it makes me particularly annoyed when people misuse clinical definitions that are very serious and shouldn't be applied to quotidian situations. These words are to be used for HUMANS, not for pets. Because honestly, if someone is using training methods on their pets that can qualify as aversive, it is abuse, because it would have to cause significant physical injury or leave the dog severely scarred emotionally. And that is why I have a problem with this -- do you want to accuse people of abusing their pets? Because you are when you use such harsh words.


Excuse me? You have a degree in psychology and can't see the problems with Cesar Milan's edutainment form of "dog rehabilitation"? (you will notice he specifically says he does NOT "train" dogs...he fixes dogs that people have already broke)

And I'm sorry, but you are incorrect, the word aversive is regularly used in the very well studied field of ANIMAL behavior modification. And I stand by my statement that holding a 14 week old puppy down until he submits is certainly aversive. You are the one who continually uses the word abusive. If you want to name it that, so be it.


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## ShelbysMama

Yes Krandall, I have a degree in psychology and I like and have a lot of respect for Cesar Milan. It seems that certain people on this forum think they have the right to accuse other users of abusing their dogs. I have a problem with that, and I don't want to be part of a forum that allows that to happen. I didn't know when I joined this forum everyone would be from the Ian Dunbar cult , and totally condescending, otherwise I wouldn't have joined.

While dogs are emotional creatures like humans, they have a pack mentality. Dogs are descended from wolves. It's been proven. Since you all like to post links, here's one for you. http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news24.htm

Because dogs are pack animals, you have to assert yourself as the LEADER. Not the dictator, the LEADER. Your dogs should respect you and know you're top dog. In a wolf pack, the alpha is trusted to make the best decisions for the pack. Being the alpha dog means your entire pack trusts you. That is why you have to be calm, GENTLE, and confident. While it may seem that wolves are aggressive towards each other, they keep other wolves in check for the productiveness and health of the _entire _pack. Dogs will not accept a pack leader that isn't balanced emotionally. That's Cesar Milan's entire perspective, and although I agree with it, I held this belief long before I ever heard of the guy. So no, just because Cesar says something, doesn't mean I agree. I'm my own person and not a "follower" of any one trainer. I do what works best for me. No matter how "tiny" my puppy, (and I have to laugh at that one considering she's 8.5lbs already and quite stocky, rowdy, and a tough cookie), she is still a little wolf in her DNA. No getting around it.

So, with that being said, that humans and dogs are very, very different in their thinking and social behavior, I find it redundant to use human psychiatry terms for dogs.

To me, abuse is physically harming your dog, starving your dog, or doing anything else that contributes to poor health, like not grooming, providing shelter, etc, or intimidating your dog through yelling, throwing things at the pet, etc. No dog could ever be harmed from being made to lie down on the ground until they're still. That's ridiculous.

I'm done with this thread and will not be posting anymore. In my anger I've probably posted too much as it is. I shouldn't have even responded to you, however I thought you were open minded and would respect someone else's point of view. But you're not, and you didn't, and probably will hold a grudge against me now. That's fine, because as I said, I will probably not be posting anymore. This is a huge turn off for me and I'm very disappointed people here can be so nonchalant about accusing people of abusing their pets.


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## krandall

ShelbysMama said:


> Yes Krandall, I have a degree in psychology and I like and have a lot of respect for Cesar Milan. It seems that certain people on this forum think they have the right to accuse other users of abusing their dogs. I have a problem with that, and I don't want to be part of a forum that allows that to happen. I didn't know when I joined this forum everyone would be from the Ian Dunbar cult , and totally condescending, otherwise I wouldn't have joined.
> 
> While dogs are emotional creatures like humans, they have a pack mentality. Dogs are descended from wolves. It's been proven. Since you all like to post links, here's one for you. http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news24.htm
> 
> Because dogs are pack animals, you have to assert yourself as the LEADER. Not the dictator, the LEADER. Your dogs should respect you and know you're top dog. In a wolf pack, the alpha is trusted to make the best decisions for the pack. Being the alpha dog means your entire pack trusts you. That is why you have to be calm, GENTLE, and confident. While it may seem that wolves are aggressive towards each other, they keep other wolves in check for the productiveness and health of the _entire _pack. Dogs will not accept a pack leader that isn't balanced emotionally. That's Cesar Milan's entire perspective, and although I agree with it, I held this belief long before I ever heard of the guy. So no, just because Cesar says something, doesn't mean I agree. I'm my own person and not a "follower" of any one trainer. I do what works best for me. No matter how "tiny" my puppy, (and I have to laugh at that one considering she's 8.5lbs already and quite stocky, rowdy, and a tough cookie), she is still a little wolf in her DNA. No getting around it.
> 
> So, with that being said, that humans and dogs are very, very different in their thinking and social behavior, I find it redundant to use human psychiatry terms for dogs.
> 
> To me, abuse is physically harming your dog, starving your dog, or doing anything else that contributes to poor health, like not grooming, providing shelter, etc, or intimidating your dog through yelling, throwing things at the pet, etc. No dog could ever be harmed from being made to lie down on the ground until they're still. That's ridiculous.
> 
> I'm done with this thread and will not be posting anymore. In my anger I've probably posted too much as it is. I shouldn't have even responded to you, however I thought you were open minded and would respect someone else's point of view. But you're not, and you didn't, and probably will hold a grudge against me now. That's fine, because as I said, I will probably not be posting anymore. This is a huge turn off for me and I'm very disappointed people here can be so nonchalant about accusing people of abusing their pets.


OK, now you are stepping outside polite intercourse, but I'll leave that for now, and simply address your (short and incomplete) link about dogs descending from wolves. First, no one said anything else... BUT (to quote your link):

>>Wayne said the study showed so many DNA changes that dogs had to have diverged genetically from wolves 60,000 to more than 100,000 years ago. 
"We have found that the origin of dogs is much older than previously believed because the genetic diversity within dogs is much greater than if their origin was as recent as 14,000 years," Wayne said in a statement. <<

in 60-100,000 years, dogs have diverged a TREMENDOUS amount. They are NOT pack animals... they live in lose groups, with members coming and going. Unlike wolves, any dog can mate with any bitch he can talk into it. There is no communal hunting (dogs are mostly scavangers, NOT hunters) and no communal care of the puppies.

Do your home work, please.

As far as Ian Dunbar is concerned, while I know who he is, and what I've heard has been positive, I have no strong feelings about him one way or the other, and have read only a little of what he has written. (his puppy book, which I found quite useful) He is one of MANY sources I have learned from.

I'm sorry if you find that someone with strong convictions (based on a lot of experience) seems condescending. But I will still stand by my convictions. I'd also suggest that you really read and THINK about the top quote in your signature.


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## Suzi

I don't like aversive training methods period, but I have some sympathy for someone who's got a really tough dog and has really tried positive training and still isn't making much progress. But I gotta say, Suzi, that to use aversives because you're too lazy to train a sweet, soft, biddable dog in a positive manner is just plain wrong.
You have miss interpreted my trying to communicate again. I never said that I use aversives because I'm to lazey to train I said that my problem is that I have been to lazey to train period. I was told to hold her head down over two months ago I have only used that method a few times. I can say however I haven't had to do it because it worked. I have a feeling that you would not walk out of one of the training classes I have attended the trainer not only had zoey for puppy training but has been our conformation teacher for over 4mo now. She has taken her very slow because she knows her personalty. The first four classes all she did was bate her on the table and tell her how great she is. 
As far as being to lazey to train I'm talking more about us training to be in shows. I was not good at doing the homework for puppy class either. If I had she would have learned a lot more and the lay down command would be a good one for teaching relaxation. I really need to get myself motivated and for some reason I'm just not their. I would much rather go on nice long off leash walks. 
It is sort of weird that I feel the need to defend myself to you I too think that your opinion can be a bit harsh and I also feel you must speed read or loose others point. Its like you love to just slam back with negatives. I think its great that you have such a well adjusted family and you certainly have no problem patting yourself on the back. Good job Karen!


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## krandall

I only read what you write, Suzi. And I have been among the first to congratulate you on your successes. I am just as tough a critic of my own work as I am of others. I take my responsibility as an owner/trainer/handler seriously. To each his own.


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## davetgabby

Shelby's Mom and Suzi. Karen and I have volunteered our advice here in the hopes that you consider it .. It's your choice whether to try it or not. We believe it to be good advice. I don't want to get into Cesar Millan debates. Been there done that. It's my belief his methods are wrong and I base that on the learning that I've acquired over the years, and the organizations I have belonged to . I have learned a lot from this forum and it's many members. I respect your right to make your own decisions. I wish you well in your training ,because it's all about the dogs. 
For anyone not knowing what I or Karen means by aversive ,here is how I describe it. Aversive simply means something your dog will try to avoid. A leash and collar can be aversive. A kick in the ribs is aversive. With "positive " based training, trainers try to use the least aversive method possible. That is explained in the link I posted on the use of punishment.Here it is again, and is worth a million words. http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonl...Statements/Combined_Punishment_Statements.pdf People think "positive" trainers don't use punishment but they do. Without going into the four quadrants of operant conditioning ,I'll leave it there. Forcibly holding a dog down can be highly aversive to some dogs. Why go there when you don't need to.? There are better ways. Ways that are more dog friendly and less risky. Ways that last, and that are not temporary. A shock collar can work. Yelling at your dog can work. But for how long and at what risk. ??? And the biggest risk is your dogs' TRUST.


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## Suzi

krandall said:


> I only read what you write, Suzi. And I have been among the first to congratulate you on your successes. I am just as tough a critic of my own work as I am of others. I take my responsibility as an owner/trainer/handler seriously. To each his own.


 I never wrote that holding Zoeys head to the ground is my only form of training. If I did I can't find it. Shelbys Momma in my opinion is doing nothing wrong. My Brother has rescue dog that has some lunging problems. They hired a very good trainer and that is a technique for relaxing a high strong dog . In my puppy class we were taught to get them down to the ground with a treat well Zoey would not do it. By the 5th class she told me to step on her leash and get her head down and the rest will follow it was the only way we could get her to lay down. She resisted but the command down was followed threw with. Zoey still doesn't lay down on command because I don't take the time to train. I think Its great Shelbys Mom is spending the time to train her puppy and is having success! I also feel bad for her that she feels like she no longer wants to be a member of our forum because she felt attacked and felt slammed. I have also felt that way a few times the worst was when I simply asked if a breeder could really control when I had to spay my dog. I almost never posted again. I have stayed away from starting trends for the most part because of the way I felt attacked.
Both Shelbys Mom and myself feel a bit abused by the way you have responded to us so maybe its time to do some people training and learn a kinder way of communication. Sorry to be so blunt


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## krandall

Suzi said:


> I never wrote that holding Zoeys head to the ground is my only form of training. If I did I can't find it.


Please show me where I said it was.



Suzi said:


> Shelbys Momma in my opinion is doing nothing wrong. My Brother has rescue dog that has some lunging problems. They hired a very good trainer and that is a technique for relaxing a high strong dog .


IMO, NOT a "good trainer". And there is a very big difference between an adult rescue dog and a 14 week old puppy.



Suzi said:


> In my puppy class we were taught to get them down to the ground with a treat well Zoey would not do it. By the 5th class she told me to step on her leash and get her head down and the rest will follow it was the only way we could get her to lay down. She resisted but the command down was followed threw with.


While there are other ways to teach the down to a puppy who has trouble learning through luring, (I prefer capture) it is not unreasonable to gently position, THEN REWARD the puppy to teach the down. That is COMPLETELY different than pinning a puppy as a punishment or "correction". You are confusing very different techniques.



Suzi said:


> Both Shelbys Mom and myself feel a bit abused by the way you have responded to us so maybe its time to do some people training and learn a kinder way of communication. Sorry to be so blunt


Please speak for yourself, not for other people. I don't mind you being blunt, but then you shouldn't mind when I am. The people who are "blunt" with you here are only that way because they care about Havs in general, and, yes, you and your dogs in specific. If I didn't care, do you think I would have spent the large amount of time I have today trying to teach you something?

When you have posted asking for advice on dealing with your dogs' bad manners, I've tried to help. Did I have to? No. You have even PM'd me off the forum asking for advice, and I have willingly helped you. Have you forgotten that? If you don't want help, or you think you know what you're doing, why post asking? If you're going to get uppity at the answer, don't ask the question.

And if you don't want me to speak up, FOR SURE don't post suggesting to other people that they should pin their puppies to the floor.


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## Suzi

Suzi said:


> Ive been out of town and just got a chance to read this trend. It is really hard when you find what you think is a good training center and find out practices have actually been bad advice. As a matter of fact not only one professional trainer but two others have in both Karen's and Dave's opinion given bad advice.
> Zoeys puppy class we sat in a circle and passed the pups around and made them be on their backs on our laps it was forceful . I'm confused if that training session was also not good for a puppy. Zoey was also barking a lot at the other puppys I was never really given any advice that I can remember that worked I think she just told me to say ah ah at first we were not suppose to say no because it was negative. After 8 weeks of her barking at the other puppy's my trainer said it's time to get a bit more assertive with her and I was taught to hold her collar and give it a slight shake and say no. I mentioned that technique and was told on the form that was not good.But That didn't work either.
> The person who taught me to put her to the ground is a breeder friend who has raised a bunch of dogs. She thought Zoey was protecting me and she was acting to be the Alfa and I needed to nip that in the butt. My friend probably is a bit old school she also probably would have given one of her kids a spanking instead of time out . Just like my Parents did. Some folks from that generation think kids aren't disciplined enough.
> My breeder friend explained that she uses the head to the ground from watching mother dogs train young puppy's. A mother dog will put her paw on the puppy to stop them from behavior she doesn't want them doing. it made sense to me and I never felt like doing that was harmful to Zoey and I know for sure that she is not by any means fearful of me. I do agree with the article that we are not dogs, I get very confused as to how to train right especially when their are so many different opinion's on how to do it.
> I think right now what bothers me is that I took someones advice that she was protecting me. I followed her training advice It has worked as far as her not barking at other dogs anymore. Or she has just gotten more conferable around other dogs who knows. I really feel bad if I harmed her in any way.
> My question would be how do you tell the difference between fear and aggression.:ear:


 I do believe this was the only question I had asked in this trend. The other trend was I wanted to know if it was okay for me to be protecting her from her fears of other dogs. Maybe their was another one that I have forgotten about but I really don't think I was. Any way I do appreciate the help you give me and you are right I should not speak for someone else.Sorry I felt offended I miss read between the lines and am so confused about training right now that I think i'll just go have a beer.


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## davetgabby

Suzi, aggression is the behavior as a result of the fear. Related but two different things. By far ,over 90 per cent of dog aggression is the result of fear. I did answer your other question on the other thread as well.


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## Suzi

davetgabby said:


> Suzi, aggression is the behavior as a result of the fear. Related but two different things. By far ,over 90 per cent of dog aggression is the result of fear. I did answer your other question on the other thread as well.


 Thanks Dave I read all the articles. I think Zoey had a poor start with big dogs. Our puppy class was not good for a small dog with large dog fears. My brothers rescue dog scared her at a very young age and I think she still remembers the experience. I am glad that I'm not causing her to be worse by comforting her thanks for the information.
She has also matured a lot and seems to be better at new situations she hardly barks anymore when we are out and pass another dog or person. Her worst barking time is out on our porch and barks at people walking by she will even bark at me if I'm out front .


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## atsilvers27

Wow - I am new to this forum and have so far been thrilled, but I am a little unnerved at some of this negative back-and-forth. There seems to be many members that have a vast wealth of experience and knowlege, as well as newbies like myself. I do have some years of experience with dogs, and I have to say, just like with children, there is no one-method-works-for-everyone. What may work for many dogs or puppies may not work for some. I think it's a good background to know that Ian Dunbar is vehemently, and possibly the most outspoken and harshest critic of Cesar Millan. NOW, before I get jumped, I DO NOT support or accept all of Cesar Millan's practices. There have been many, many owners and dogs that have been hurt physically and psychologically by misusing/using/attempting to copy Cesar. But, would you even attempt to break in a wild mustang after only watching the Horse Whisperer? I think not. You may disagree with Cesar Milan and to his critics' credit, he has gotten hurt etc. whatever else you want to say about his method. But you also have to give him credit. The man has a gift. For all of the people who have had bad experiences from him, there are multiples of others who have taken the very basics to heart and have been able to lead a more balanced relationship with their dog.

The trick seems to be to find what best works for you and your dog and what is the healthiest as well. As long as we don't take things to extremes and we keep things in perspective we will be co exist with each other's techniques and opinions without getting nasty/defensive/rude/arrogant. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Or train a dog, I should say!


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## davetgabby

atsilvers27 said:


> Wow - I am new to this forum and have so far been thrilled, but I am a little unnerved at some of this negative back-and-forth. There seems to be many members that have a vast wealth of experience and knowlege, as well as newbies like myself. I do have some years of experience with dogs, and I have to say, just like with children, there is no one-method-works-for-everyone. What may work for many dogs or puppies may not work for some. I think it's a good background to know that Ian Dunbar is vehemently, and possibly the most outspoken and harshest critic of Cesar Millan. NOW, before I get jumped, I DO NOT support or accept all of Cesar Millan's practices. There have been many, many owners and dogs that have been hurt physically and psychologically by misusing/using/attempting to copy Cesar. But, would you even attempt to break in a wild mustang after only watching the Horse Whisperer? I think not. You may disagree with Cesar Milan and to his critics' credit, he has gotten hurt etc. whatever else you want to say about his method. But you also have to give him credit. The man has a gift. For all of the people who have had bad experiences from him, there are multiples of others who have taken the very basics to heart and have been able to lead a more balanced relationship with their dog.
> 
> The trick seems to be to find what best works for you and your dog and what is the healthiest as well. As long as we don't take things to extremes and we keep things in perspective we will be co exist with each other's techniques and opinions without getting nasty/defensive/rude/arrogant. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Or train a dog, I should say![/QUOTE
> 
> Thanks for your opinions. Actually Dr. Dunbar is not Cesar's biggest critic. He actually helped Cesar with his latest book. I agree there are many ways to train a dog. And none of them need to involve fear coercion intimidation or force. As far as skinning a cat, there are no good ways. Bad analogy.


----------



## atsilvers27

davetgabby said:


> atsilvers27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow - I am new to this forum and have so far been thrilled, but I am a little unnerved at some of this negative back-and-forth. There seems to be many members that have a vast wealth of experience and knowlege, as well as newbies like myself. I do have some years of experience with dogs, and I have to say, just like with children, there is no one-method-works-for-everyone. What may work for many dogs or puppies may not work for some. I think it's a good background to know that Ian Dunbar is vehemently, and possibly the most outspoken and harshest critic of Cesar Millan. NOW, before I get jumped, I DO NOT support or accept all of Cesar Millan's practices. There have been many, many owners and dogs that have been hurt physically and psychologically by misusing/using/attempting to copy Cesar. But, would you even attempt to break in a wild mustang after only watching the Horse Whisperer? I think not. You may disagree with Cesar Milan and to his critics' credit, he has gotten hurt etc. whatever else you want to say about his method. But you also have to give him credit. The man has a gift. For all of the people who have had bad experiences from him, there are multiples of others who have taken the very basics to heart and have been able to lead a more balanced relationship with their dog.
> 
> The trick seems to be to find what best works for you and your dog and what is the healthiest as well. As long as we don't take things to extremes and we keep things in perspective we will be co exist with each other's techniques and opinions without getting nasty/defensive/rude/arrogant. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Or train a dog, I should say![/QUOTE
> 
> Thanks for your opinions. Actually Dr. Dunbar is not Cesar's biggest critic. He actually helped Cesar with his latest book. I agree there are many ways to train a dog. And none of them need to involve fear coercion intimidation or force. As far as skinning a cat, there are no good ways. Bad analogy.
> 
> 
> 
> I forgot to add PC to my list of things to not do so we can all get along...
Click to expand...


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## davetgabby

Sorry, not sure what you mean by PC ?


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## LeighaMason

Politically correct


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## heatherk

Wow, if I was a moderator, I would shut this post down. I am very glad to be a part of this forum - it has taught me so much! But, I can see both side'bs points, and, I can also see how both sides are wrong or have gone too far in this argument.

atsilvers27, suzi, and ShelbysMama (and anybody else I might have missed that was in support of Cesar Milan's methods or other methodology) - I can't, and don't want to, address any of your issues with your dogs individually. This forum is about guidance, and education, not rules. However, I would really like for you to take a second and realize that Cesar deals with THE WORST CASES. *EVERY SINGLE EPISODE!!!* Now, I am actually a fan of Cesar's show, and I watch it all the time. And I happen to like him for what he does, and I am in disagreement with the people who state that Cesar's methods should not be used ever, or won't work. I think that Cesar is sort of like a worst-case-dog genius - if you do get a worst-case dog, he would be able to work wonders. BUT. The Havanese are by nature, gentle, loving, obedient dogs. They WANT to please their people, even if they've been mistreated before, or have issues of any kind. And given their nature, using Cesar's techniques on them would not only be ineffective, but cruel as well. And the people arguing with you are really only trying to get you to realize this.

I _do_ understand your need for your dog to obey, and be a good dog, and such. But using Cesar's techniques on your Havanese WILL NOT HELP. And Karen, and Dave, and everybody else who has responded to you, are just trying to say that. Havanese are gentle dogs in their souls, no matter what attitude they take from the outside. And, there ARE MUCH better, more useful alternatives out there. Alternatives that will help you achieve your goal. After all, if we love the dogs so much, we certainly don't want to leave their owner stranded, since that would leave the dog stranded as well!!!!

For Karen and Dave, while I have the GREATEST respect for you, and while I totally understand your position and your passion about this subject (which I feel VERY passionate about as well), you are risking alienating Havanese owners instead of educating/helping them, which will NOT accomplish your goal.

I think both sides should simmer down, so that they can talk about things reasonably... just my 2 cents


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## krandall

davetgabby said:


> atsilvers27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> As far as skinning a cat, there are no good ways. Bad analogy.
> 
> 
> 
> the analogy of "breaking" a mustang isn't a good one either. Knowledgable horse trainers (entertainers like the "Horse Whisperer" aside) know that breaking, thankfully, went the way of the wild west. Horses need to be trained, not broken. (and as one with close to 40 years experience training and showing horses, both my own and professionally, I am well qualified to comment on this issue. (not so much on skinning cats. My cat would flay me if I tried:biggrin1.
Click to expand...


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## krandall

heatherk said:


> Wow, if I was a moderator, I would shut this post down. I am very glad to be a part of this forum - it has taught me so much! But, I can see both side'bs points, and, I can also see how both sides are wrong or have gone too far in this argument.
> 
> atsilvers27, suzi, and ShelbysMama (and anybody else I might have missed that was in support of Cesar Milan's methods or other methodology) - I can't, and don't want to, address any of your issues with your dogs individually. This forum is about guidance, and education, not rules. However, I would really like for you to take a second and realize that Cesar deals with THE WORST CASES. *EVERY SINGLE EPISODE!!!* Now, I am actually a fan of Cesar's show, and I watch it all the time. And I happen to like him for what he does, and I am in disagreement with the people who state that Cesar's methods should not be used ever, or won't work. I think that Cesar is sort of like a worst-case-dog genius - if you do get a worst-case dog, he would be able to work wonders. BUT. The Havanese are by nature, gentle, loving, obedient dogs. They WANT to please their people, even if they've been mistreated before, or have issues of any kind. And given their nature, using Cesar's techniques on them would not only be ineffective, but cruel as well. And the people arguing with you are really only trying to get you to realize this.
> 
> I _do_ understand your need for your dog to obey, and be a good dog, and such. But using Cesar's techniques on your Havanese WILL NOT HELP. And Karen, and Dave, and everybody else who has responded to you, are just trying to say that. Havanese are gentle dogs in their souls, no matter what attitude they take from the outside. And, there ARE MUCH better, more useful alternatives out there. Alternatives that will help you achieve your goal. After all, if we love the dogs so much, we certainly don't want to leave their owner stranded, since that would leave the dog stranded as well!!!!
> 
> For Karen and Dave, while I have the GREATEST respect for you, and while I totally understand your position and your passion about this subject (which I feel VERY passionate about as well), you are risking alienating Havanese owners instead of educating/helping them, which will NOT accomplish your goal.
> 
> I think both sides should simmer down, so that they can talk about things reasonably... just my 2 cents


I really like your post, and actually agree with much that you said about CM... He takes on dogs that no other trainer will touch (or that numerous other trainers HAVE worked with, and failed with) But those aren't our dogs.

I don't, however feel that either Dave or I need to "simmer down" however. I don't think either one of us have said ANYTHING impolite or nasty to the OP. I certainly haven't had a rise in my blood pressure over the whole thing.

HOWEVER... I won't let poor training practices stand unchallenged here on the forum. It's not fair to all the people who don't know any better who come on the forum and read these thread later. Believe me, if someone cam on the forum and said they were intending to go out and purchase a puppy mill puppy from a pet store, half the forum would be all over them. I'm not sure why only Dave and I care enough about abusive training practices to try to educate people to use other means, but it seems to be true at times.

I also have to say that for every person who who gets huffy when we say that pinning puppies to the floor (or other outdated practices) are not good training methods, there are at least several who, when they ASK for help (which IS where this thread started) are grateful for the advice we give, give the advice a try, and, wonder of wonders, these methods DO work, all without traumatizing the dog or risking a bite.


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## LeighaMason

krandall said:


> I don't, however feel that either Dave or I need to "simmer down" however. I don't think either one of us have said ANYTHING impolite or nasty to the OP. I certainly haven't had a rise in my blood pressure over the whole thing.


Actually Karen, I do find many of your responses to be overbearing and rude.


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## krandall

LeighaMason said:


> Actually Karen, I do find many of your responses to be overbearing and rude.


Then you are welcome to ignore my posts.


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## heatherk

krandall said:


> I really like your post, and actually agree with much that you said about CM... He takes on dogs that no other trainer will touch (or that numerous other trainers HAVE worked with, and failed with) But those aren't our dogs.
> 
> I don't, however feel that either Dave or I need to "simmer down" however. I don't think either one of us have said ANYTHING impolite or nasty to the OP. I certainly haven't had a rise in my blood pressure over the whole thing.
> 
> HOWEVER... I won't let poor training practices stand unchallenged here on the forum. It's not fair to all the people who don't know any better who come on the forum and read these thread later. Believe me, if someone cam on the forum and said they were intending to go out and purchase a puppy mill puppy from a pet store, half the forum would be all over them. I'm not sure why only Dave and I care enough about abusive training practices to try to educate people to use other means, but it seems to be true at times.
> 
> I also have to say that for every person who who gets huffy when we say that pinning puppies to the floor (or other outdated practices) are not good training methods, there are at least several who, when they ASK for help (which IS where this thread started) are grateful for the advice we give, give the advice a try, and, wonder of wonders, these methods DO work, all without traumatizing the dog or risking a bite.


Karen, I agree with you in all respects. I would never pin a hav to the floor, no matter how 'bad' they were acting. And I practice positive training every day with my beloved furbaby, and I do agree with you that people need to be educated about good and bad training methods. I'm just saying that this post in particular has obviously had the opposite effect on certain people, which I am sure was not your intent, that is all. "Simmer down" probably seemed condescending which was not *my* intent...


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## SOPHIES-MOM

I started reading this post because Sophie has been having similar behaviors around other dogs, running in circles and biting at their faces. I was hoping to get some tips, but all I've gotten seems to be a nasty argument.This just started with her and I'm getting ready to have my daughter's puggle for a year, so I was hoping for some help.Now I pick her up and take her away from the situation[time out], but I don't know if this is the right thing to do.This thread is upsetting.


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## davetgabby

The advice that people offer ,is always up for debate. People have the right to take it or leave it. I'm only going to speak for myself. The advice that I give is not just my opinion. I am in most cases giving advice that is generally accepted by most |"Positive" dog trainers . It is advice that comes from nearly all dog training organizations eg. American Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviorists. International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants. , American Humane Association., Association of Pet Dog Trainers, International Positive Dog Training Association, Association of Animal Behavior Professionals, Animal Behavior Associates, Animal behavior Society. , International Association for the Study of Animal Behavior, and Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers.
All of these organizations have spoken out on the outdated training methods of which I'm generally referring to. 
And I will continue to give advice that supports the type of training that these organizations stand for. 
When you research these organizations you will understand why positive reinforcement type training is the way to go.


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## SOPHIES-MOM

I totally agree with positive reinforcement and I think that's what I have done from day 1 as best I can. What I'm not sure of is, if they have a bad behavior, like biting another dog's face, what to do.Will time out help this behavior?She has done this to the cat for awhile and, though she's better, she still does it, even with me putting her in time out and trying to reward her when she's "sweet" to him.She has no aggressive tendencies but thinks everything is a game. I think age will calm her ,but what to do in the mean time, especially since I have a dog coming to live with us for a year.


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## davetgabby

Hi Sharon , here's a liitle something on it. http://www.dogstardaily.com/radio/108-hyperdog And here is more on this sort of thing. http://pawsitivedawgs.wordpress.com/crazy-canines/


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## davetgabby

Sharon here is more LOL on introducing dogs to your home. http://www.thebark.com/content/bringing-home-second-dog

http://blogs.dogster.com/dog-trainin...d-dog/2010/12/

http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/bringing-home-bella


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## atsilvers27

krandall said:


> davetgabby said:
> 
> 
> 
> the analogy of "breaking" a mustang isn't a good one either. Knowledgable horse trainers (entertainers like the "Horse Whisperer" aside) know that breaking, thankfully, went the way of the wild west. Horses need to be trained, not broken. (and as one with close to 40 years experience training and showing horses, both my own and professionally, I am well qualified to comment on this issue. (not so much on skinning cats. My cat would flay me if I tried:biggrin1.
> 
> 
> 
> Karen,
> 
> I also have years of experience with horses. Just quickly, I would like to say that my mention of "breaking in" of a horse was tied to what Monty Roberts, the real horse whisperer does. He pioneered "join up," which is possibly the most gentle, most positive way to form a bond with a horse. He developed his approach by observing wild mustangs and learning to interpret their body language, which he mimicks. He uses eye contact (or lack of), body positioning, and reward. My analogy is correct that a person who watches Monty Roberts "break in" a horse once, wouldn't go and try to mimick him, as that person can't just go and do exactly what an extremely professional and skilled person can. In fact, the imitator would not only not be nearly as effective as the authentic, but could end up getting seriously hurt by the horse. The same way someone watching an episode of Cesar Millan, tries it on their dog and doesn't have the same nuance, eye or skill as Cesar (In my opinion extremely talented for working with difficult/dangerous dogs), ends up getting bit and then blames Cesar for it.
> 
> "There is more than one way to skin a cat" is a saying in the English language that means there's more than one way to do something. It's not meant to be taken literally.
Click to expand...


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## davetgabby

atsilvers27 said:


> krandall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Karen,
> 
> I also have years of experience with horses. Just quickly, I would like to say that my mention of "breaking in" of a horse was tied to what Monty Roberts, the real horse whisperer does. He pioneered "join up," which is possibly the most gentle, most positive way to form a bond with a horse. He developed his approach by observing wild mustangs and learning to interpret their body language, which he mimicks. He uses eye contact (or lack of), body positioning, and reward. My analogy is correct that a person who watches Monty Roberts "break in" a horse once, wouldn't go and try to mimick him, as that person can't just go and do exactly what an extremely professional and skilled person can. In fact, the imitator would not only not be nearly as effective as the authentic, but could end up getting seriously hurt by the horse. The same way someone watching an episode of Cesar Millan, tries it on their dog and doesn't have the same nuance, eye or skill as Cesar (In my opinion extremely talented for working with difficult/dangerous dogs), ends up getting bit and then blames Cesar for it.
> 
> "There is more than one way to skin a cat" is a saying in the English language that means there's more than one way to do something. It's not meant to be taken literally.
> 
> 
> 
> Atsilvers27 ,The problem with Cesar's behavioral advice is that, not only in most cases is it wrong, but that people try to follow it. What good is showing training methods (either for horses or dogs) if these methods are not duplicable by people in general. Why should a show have to put up a warning at the beginning saying not to try to try these methods at home sort of speak. They are somewhat justified with putting up the warning ,because his methods ARE dangerous, and they don't need to be. And they are foolish if they think people are actually not going to try them ,simply because they were warned not to. Good trainers get bit far less than Cesar does, simply because their methods circumvent the aggression in the dog they are trying to behaviorally modify. I could send you a hundred articles by the groups I've mentioned earlier but I will leave you with just one . This one is by a single individual but it addresses a lot in one article. It is representative of what these groups are talking about. http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm It's a long article so keep scrolling down. Follow the links there as well if you want more info.
Click to expand...


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## davetgabby

Here is a letter from Jean Donaldson that I received after I commented to her on Cesar's show. It ,I think is representative of many trainers who have now abandoned these outdated and inappropriate methods.

"Thank you for such great words of encouragement, David. There is a huge contingent of people who are near despair about the setting back of dog training by the popularity of Mr. Millan. It seems that one of the obstacles is the inability to read body language in dogs by the general public. A severely stressed, completely shut-down dog is labeled calm. Another obstacle is the seeming need people have to "dominate" something. It's almost stuff for a psychotherapist, this thirst to bend some creature to one's will. Maybe a self-esteem thing. 

I have gone on record numerous times about the Dog Whisperer and his fans are ardent in their defense of these practices (for instance, the SPCA was bombarded with emails, including threats to withdraw donations, when I did a relatively tame editorial on the SPCA website questioning his harsher practices). Many fine dog trainers who have been in the trenches for years helping dogs and educating themselves to do it better are burned out by the popularity of such simplistic and arcane practices. 

If you've not already done so, a carefully worded letter of concern to the National Geographic Channel can't hurt. They seem to not care what the SPCA, American Humane, American Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviorists etc. etc. think but may be concerned if viewers see through this stuff.

Thanks again for taking the time to show support."

Jean


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## Suzi

The trick seems to be to find what best works for you and your dog and what is the healthiest as well. As long as we don't take things to extremes and we keep things in perspective we will be co exist with each other's techniques and opinions without getting nasty/defensive/rude/arrogant. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Or train a dog, I should say!
I agree with you. This training business has gotten very confusing to me I still don't know the proper way of training my dogs to stop barking. I told my trainer about the head down thing and she said absolutely not One reason she said was Zoey tends to arch her back and she does that because she puts her head down naturally when she is scared. The second reason she said was because it can really hurt her. I asked her how does she train her dogs not to bark and she showed me on Zoey . Her method would be right up their with the adverse training once again. She held her beard and pulled lightley and got in her face and said no. She said sometimes she even growls. 
The past few times my dogs have been out on the porch barking I simply called their names and when they come I say good coming then I shut the slider door and take the privilege of coming and going outside away. I'm sure they aren't learning a thing except they are good dogs for coming I don't know why it is so hard for me to grasp the positive training method. Give them a treat when they stop barking? Try to stop them before they start barking? Sit outside with a bowl of treats and have everyone who walks by give then one? 
I still don't understand why teaching a dog down on the ground is bad? As a way of calming them? I understand why forcing a dog is not good but why is simply the lay down command a bad thing? I am talking about Karen saying my Brothers trainer was not a good trainer. I'll go back and paste it.


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## Suzi

]IMO, NOT a "good trainer". And there is a very big difference between an adult rescue dog and a 14 week old puppy.[/COLOR]
My Brothers dog is still a puppy just a lot bigger then Zoey. My Brothers dog lays on command and they use that to clam the dog down why is that bad? Was it bad training to pass the puppy around at puppy class making them be on their backs on our laps?



While there are other ways to teach the down to a puppy who has trouble learning through luring, (I prefer capture) it is not unreasonable to gently position, THEN REWARD the puppy to teach the down. That is COMPLETELY different than pinning a puppy as a punishment or "correction". You are confusing very different techniques.
I used capture the few times I put zoeys head to the ground I just made her stay still I was not applying much pressure at all. I do agree now that is not a good training method. 
I'm just a bit confused. Someone please enplane in layman terms how to stop a dog from barking:frusty::frusty:


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## davetgabby

Suzi , there's nothing wrong with asking for a down to calm a dog. We're talking about forcibly holding them down. Dogs can be taught to handle being in your arms on their backs but it should not be forced. It's even advised to teach your dog to handle being hugged but it has to be a gradual learning process. Patricia McConnell has a collection of pictures of people hugging dogs. And if you look at the pictures the dogs are all showing signs of stress in the picture. Like Jean Donaldson mentioned in the article above, most people are not good at reading dog body language. Pass the puppy is a good idea, but that is not meant to be totally constricting . It has to be a gentle process. When Karen talks of capturing , she is refering to clicker training where you wait for the dog to offer the behavior, then click when they do the action. If you want to learn clicker training check out Karen Pryor.
Barking is a difficult problem for many people. It is much more involved than simply telling your dog to shush. Dogs don't understand what shush or quiet means unless we teach them. First you have to teach them to bark on cue. There are different approaches for different types of barking. If you want a great article , email me privately at [email protected] as it is too long to post here. If you want to learn more about positive dog training start reading at Dog Star Daily .There are numerous articles there. I have a list of forty or more books I can email you and you can choose a topic related one from them.


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## krandall

Suzi said:


> ]IMO, NOT a "good trainer". And there is a very big difference between an adult rescue dog and a 14 week old puppy.[/COLOR]
> My Brothers dog is still a puppy just a lot bigger then Zoey. My Brothers dog lays on command and they use that to clam the dog down why is that bad? Was it bad training to pass the puppy around at puppy class making them be on their backs on our laps?
> 
> [QUOTE/]
> 
> Sorry Suzi. I misread what you said. There is nothing wrong with curing the dog to down and asking him to stay there. The problem is FORCING a dog to the ground. We WANT to teach dogs to follow our cues... We just want to use positive methods to get them there.
> 
> 
> 
> Suzi said:
> 
> 
> 
> While there are other ways to teach the down to a puppy who has trouble learning through luring, (I prefer capture) it is not unreasonable to gently position, THEN REWARD the puppy to teach the down. That is COMPLETELY different than pinning a puppy as a punishment or "correction". You are confusing very different techniques.
> I used capture the few times I put zoeys head to the ground I just made her stay still I was not applying much pressure at all. I do agree now that is not a good training method.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not "capture"... That's pushing the puppy to the floor. Certainly you are not, in this instance, doing it in a punishing way... I assume you wer giving her encouragement and a reward for being down ther. But capture, with a clicker trained dog, is when you see the dog (possibly, just by accident) performing whatever it is you wan them to do, you immediately click and treat. So, if you are trying to "capture" a "down", any time you see the puppy lie down, you immediately click and treat. Vey quickly, the puppy will start offering a down, because they know that you are going to reward that behavior. When the puppy has intentionally offered the down several times, you start putting it on cue, by saying "down" every time the puppy begins to lie down. Before long, you can give the cue, and the puppy will know what it means, and lie down.
> 
> As far as the barking is concerned, there's no one, easy answer to that. It depends on why the dog is barking (and that can vary for one situation to another). It's also harder when you have more than one dog, as they cue off each other. It's also just something that young dogs (which both of yours are) who are feeling their oats do. Kodi went through a stage of barking a lot too, probably between 8-14 months, which is right where you are. Obviously, I discouraged it as much as I could, but I think a lot of it just tapered off with age and maturity.
> 
> I don't really what him to never bark. (I CERTAINLY want him to bark to go out and potty, for instance, and I don't mind him barking to tell me someone is at the door) But I do want him to stop when I tell him to.
Click to expand...


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## Suzi

I don't really what him to never bark. (I CERTAINLY want him to bark to go out and potty, for instance, and I don't mind him barking to tell me someone is at the door) But I do want him to stop when I tell him to.
I know what you mean. You do want them to be able to communicate. What if a bad stranger was around . I agree it is probably a stage I just really dislike yapie barkie dogs. I know we have it under control while we are at home I just hate the thought of barking a bunch while were gone.
Thanks for the clicker training for lay down.


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## Suzi

davetgabby said:


> Suzi , there's nothing wrong with asking for a down to calm a dog. We're talking about forcibly holding them down. Dogs can be taught to handle being in your arms on their backs but it should not be forced. It's even advised to teach your dog to handle being hugged but it has to be a gradual learning process. Patricia McConnell has a collection of pictures of people hugging dogs. And if you look at the pictures the dogs are all showing signs of stress in the picture. Like Jean Donaldson mentioned in the article above, most people are not good at reading dog body language. Pass the puppy is a good idea, but that is not meant to be totally constricting . It has to be a gentle process. When Karen talks of capturing , she is refering to clicker training where you wait for the dog to offer the behavior, then click when they do the action. If you want to learn clicker training check out Karen Pryor.
> Barking is a difficult problem for many people. It is much more involved than simply telling your dog to shush. Dogs don't understand what shush or quiet means unless we teach them. First you have to teach them to bark on cue. There are different approaches for different types of barking. If you want a great article , email me privately at [email protected] as it is too long to post here. If you want to learn more about positive dog training start reading at Dog Star Daily .There are numerous articles there. I have a list of forty or more books I can email you and you can choose a topic related one from them.[/QUOTE
> Thanks Dave I will


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## krandall

Suzi said:


> I don't really what him to never bark. (I CERTAINLY want him to bark to go out and potty, for instance, and I don't mind him barking to tell me someone is at the door) But I do want him to stop when I tell him to.
> I know what you mean. You do want them to be able to communicate. What if a bad stranger was around . I agree it is probably a stage I just really dislike yapie barkie dogs. I know we have it under control while we are at home I just hate the thought of barking a bunch while were gone.
> Thanks for the clicker training for lay down.


Do you know whether they bark while you're gone? Kodi is VERY quiet when we're not home. I've had workmen come into the house while I'm gone (with my permission, of course!) and they've told me that Kodi doesn't make a PEEP when they come in. He just stays in his crate and watches them. I don't think he's a "brave watch dog" if I'm not there as "back up".:biggrin1:


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## Suzi

At least your are protected from intruders while your home I was in the shower the other day and the sisters were barking for about 3 min I thought Bob had driven up and was taking his time coming in. I peaked outside and didn't see his car all the while saying what are you guys barking at? I later left the house and a package was at the door. Gee the big bad UPS guy had come by glad the girls let me know!


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## krandall

Kodi was out in the yard while my son was working out there one day last week. I saw the UPS truck coming down the driveway and went out to meet it. I was surprised that Kodi wasn't barking. As soon as he SAW me, Kodi started barking at the UPS driver. He always wants back-up!ound:


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