# Need help deciding on breeding



## Suzi

I am learning so much from all of you in this forum. I learned that Maddies breeder did not have her mom and dad health tested. I really appreciated that information. I was still wanting to breed Maddie only after I found out if she was standered to the breed and health tested. I then learned about feet problems and the term dwarf legs came up. I have a picture of Maddies mom and she does not look like she is standered size and her legs look short is this dwarf legs? and if she isn't show quality does that mean I should not even consider breeding her? Because the genealogy is off .? I would really appreciate it if anyone can tell just by looking at the picture so I can decide if I am going to show Maddie.


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## dbeech

From this picture, it does look like Maddie's mother's front legs are too short. Maddie's parent's may have potential health issues since they were not tested. Under these circumstances, I would not breed Maddie.


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## KSC

Breeding is for the betterment of the breed. This means if you are not absolutely sure on the health testing I would not breed either.


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## lfung5

I agree. If your not going to show her and do all the health testing you don't want to breed her. If you didn't buy her as a show potential pup, I'm sure she doesn't have correct confirmation. If your going to breed, it should be a planned decision and a lot of research on the parents etc. 
Please don't breed her.


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## Missy

Suzi, you should just enjoy your sweet Maddie while she is a puppy. seems like little maddie has a lot going on and you and she should just enjoy each other for the time being. they are puppies for such a short time, and it seems like her breeder is not going to be the kind of mentor you would need to start a real reputable breeding program that will better the breed.

But she is precious.


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## Becky Chittenden

There are lots of dogs in the world and if your dog's parents weren't health tested, any problems can show up. Even dogs that are tested clear for several generations can produce a puppy with health problems. My suggestion is enjoy your dog and if you want another, just buy one. Breeding should be for the betterment of the breed.


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## TilliesMom

I agree with everyone else here.
just enjoy your pup!!
and... I've never heard of dwarf legs, can someone fill me in a little bit??


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## dbeech

Here is a picture of dwarf legs along with an article. Notice the front legs are shorter than the back legs.

http://www.dogstuff.info/osteochondrodysplasias_lanting.html


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## TilliesMom

hmmmm, interesting... is this at full grown? I'm curious to measure Tillie's legs now... she is rather short, I just thought she was petite...? oh well, I love her regardless of her conformation!


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## LilyMyLove

An important factor to keep in mind is that you puppy could test perfectly, but have dogs with health problems and abnormalities that the parents or grandparents had. 

Lily is a little dwarfy, but adorable and so fun! That said, I would not even consider breeding her. Spay your baby and have a good time with her!


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## The Laughing Magpie

Suzi, It is early days for you and your little girl pup. Enjoy her puppyhood it's over soon. As for breeding unless your going to show her and finish her, finding a good breeder to send sperm or mate their male with her will be difficult if not impossible. Research about the risks in breeding and ask yourself am I willing to lose her if something goes wrong. Sometimes even great show dogs throw not good pups (to big, wrong bite, topline wrong..etc}. Don't set yourself up for failure, set yourself up for success. Take her to classes and try some shows then see how you feel.


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## Suzi

Thank you for all the advice. I looked up events in Oregon and their isn't any I thought it would be a start to go see what showing is all about .
I thought shorter front legs to back was a trate in the havanese. Maddies back legs seem longer in back. When she runs she hops . But I have not soaped her up and measured maybe it just seems like that. I was told it is best to spay around 10 mo. So I have a bit more time to think about it. :decision:


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## The Laughing Magpie

Suzi, There are several shows in Jan. Usually December is a slow month because of the holidays. Please go to the shows explore and enjoy your little bundle of fluff.


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## pjewel

Suzi, you are getting such good advice from everyone here. They're right. Enjoy your baby, watch her grow from the adorable ball of fluff she is now into the loving adult she will surely be. There are too many unknowns to plan to breed her.


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## JASHavanese

I don't know where you got this puppy from but if you can't look up the health testing in the sire and dam, can you look up the others in her lines? 
A championship on a stud wouldn't make or break that dog for me to breed to even though we show. There are way too many in our breed that shouldn't have that CH in front of their name but put the dog out with a great handler and you're going to get it. When a lame dog or a dog that waddles like a Peke or a male that's banded can get a CH it starts to wear thin. Does that mean I say not to show? No, but it's not a deal breaker for me.
EVERY line has some health issue in it. That's why you want a great relationship with your breeder and get all of that information from them. There are some issues that are passed on only if both the sire and dam carry the gene and those you can stop. There are others that just one can pass on to the offspring so know your breeder very well and rely on them.
We can health test until the cows come home (and in our breed we do just that) but there can be an issue that rears it's ugly head from generations ago. 
From your post I'm guessing you have a loving pet but that's a guess as I don't know the lines she's from. 
Have you been taught how to soap your dog to check them? Have you been taught how to check for spring of rib? For the hocks? For the bite..and the list goes on.
When you have even a tiny doubt, don't breed please


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## Suzi

I soaped her up today but was hard to take good pictures I needed help holding her to get a good front view. What I found out was her r foot is a bit off but her legs are strait. And her tail is a bit low. She probably would not show well . I have decided not to show or bread her.


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## mellowbo

Truly, breeding needs to be left to the professionals who have done years of research. It is to be taken VERY seriously. I am so glad you are a smart lady!! Enjoy your adorable puppy!


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## SOPHIES-MOM

Suzi, she is a precious puppy. Just enjoy her! She's perfect!


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## Pixiesmom

Yes, I never knew before the forum that there is so much extensive preparation and research, costs and frankly just plain old hard work involved with breeding dogs properly and successfully. I could never do it. You really have to be an expert on matters of health testing, confirmation, nutrition, training, etc. etc. 
I don't know about the spaying at 10 months-it seems late to me. She will surely go into heat(?). My vet recommended at most 6 months. My female was spayed at 6 and my male neutered at 5.5. I agree with everyone, just enjoy her as your adorable and loving pet.


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## rdanielle

Actually, spaying/neutering is more optimal when done later than earlier. When puppies are spayed too early (6 months and under) it interferes with the growth plate the hormones that dictate when to stop growing aren't there to signal it to do so. Females should be spayed after the first heat.

Scroll down to where the dam and her 3 pups are feasting on a raw meaty bone:
http://www.chocolatesilkdogs.com/natural_rearing


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## KSC

Aren't there differing opinions on this issue re timing on spaying? I seem to remember lot's of discussion on this topic in this forum.

It's discussed in this thread and there are a couple of articles

http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=12728&highlight=when+to+spay&page=2


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## Ellie NY

Sylvia - There are differing opinions both by professionals and laymen. I spoke to my vet regarding the whole "false growth" issue. His response? "Have you been surfing the internet?" (Uhm, just a little, doc.) He said there was no compelling evidence of this. He believes 6 months of age or later depending on the breed and dog's behavior. Eli began marking, humping and getting erections. That was our signal that he was reaching sexual maturity and it was time. .


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## KSC

Ellie NY said:


> Sylvia - There are differing opinions both by professionals and laymen. I spoke to my vet regarding the whole "false growth" issue. His response? "Have you been surfing the internet?" (Uhm, just a little, doc.) He said there was no compelling evidence of this. He believes 6 months of age or later depending on the breed and dog's behavior. Eli began marking, humping and getting erections. That was our signal that he was reaching sexual maturity and it was time. .


Yes..I know...I was raising the issue to ensure that people understand there is more than one opinion on this topic....We neutered Kipling at 6 months.


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## juliav

Suzi,

I hope are resident breeders will look at the soaped pictures and chime in. I am no expert, but it looks like Maddie's left front leg is a little bowed (like the pics we see in dogs with CD). Also, is she just stending like that cause she is cold, but it looks like she might have a roached back. Neither of the conditions is good for breeding.


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## pjewel

I was thinking the same thing. Unless it was the cold, it does look like a roach back, and the legs don't look straight. All of it doesn't matter at all since you've wisely decided not to breed her. Just enjoy your sweet baby.


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## CacheHavs

IMO, her legs are fine, they are straight, but yes her one right foot turns out. the bowing in which you see is more muscle I have a couple of havies that have a thicker muscle, but you can see that the bone is straight. Remember this breed can have a slight curvature and it would not be cd. Also in the picture of her from the side, I am not sure that she is roached, but rather cold from be wet. however in my experience I would say that if she were to not be cold and was stacked properly that her tail set would be a little low.

I am glad that you have made the decision to not breed her as well. It does take a lot of learning and educating yourself, and I am happy to see that you are doing that. If in the future you want to maybe breed, then you need to find a good reputable breeder that will also mentor you. You are on the right track and I commend you for that


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## Tom King

Yeah, it's not CD. CD comes from both parents carrying the FGF4 gene, and then the affected ones get a "retrogene". You won't likely see legs that long on a CD dog. The FGF4 gene makes short legs, which are shorter from floor to elbow than from elbow to top of whithers, and often the dog is "low on leg" also. Low on leg is when the chest goes down below the elbow level for reasons other than close shoulder angle, or too short upper arm. Direction that feet point can be a completely separate issue caused by a number of different conformational interactions.

The location for the FGF4 gene was found during the TAMU study, and later (July '09) the individual genes were identified in a separate study where the practitioners were completely unaware of the TAMU study.

DNA test for the FGF4 gene should not be too far down the road.


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## Tom King

pjewel said:


> I was thinking the same thing. Unless it was the cold, it does look like a roach back, and the legs don't look straight. All of it doesn't matter at all since you've wisely decided not to breed her. Just enjoy your sweet baby.


Most likely the "roached back" in that shot came from the dog being cold and contracting the abs. It's a common thing in soaped pictures and really should not even be considered. The important part is leg conformation, and the dog should not be posed. The main thing I like on this one is the length of femur, but there is too much going on to consider it a breeding animal.


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## pjewel

Tom King said:


> Most likely the "roached back" in that shot came from the dog being cold and contracting the abs. It's a common thing in soaped pictures and really should not even be considered. The important part is leg conformation, and the dog should not be posed. The main thing I like on this one is the length of femur, but there is too much going on to consider it a breeding animal.


I did think the cold might have done it but it just shows that questions like this should be left to the experts. I've learned my lesson. Thanks.


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## Tom King

Topine can easily be seen almost any time unless the dog has a bushy coat.


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## Suzi

Thanks for viewing Maddie. Yes she was cold poor girl was the worst bath she has had yet. :bathbaby:
LET ME OUT OF HEAR STOP TAKING MY PICTURE!​


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## Suzi

Maddie is mad at me for posting that picture . It is really not her best shot :sorry::hug:hoto: She is happy that she has good length of femur we are going to google that and see what it means. Maybe she will still be a champion jumper when she is old enough.
I have been wondering lately what the Havanese must have looked like in Cuba do you think they had as full of a coat that they have now?


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## lfung5

Yeah, I was thinking, Hello MR BROWN EYE!


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## Thumper

She's so cute! Poor girl soaking wet and that look of hurry up on her face, a familiar expression right out of the tub, no doubt..LOL

The local havanese breeder here, she bought her first havanese with the intent to breed and didn't know much about the breed, or breeding for that matter and ended up with a dog with severe chrondodysplasia (sp?) Needless to say, she didn't breed the dog but hooked up with another breeder who showed her the ropes and now she's breeding dogs that have been fully health tested and her oldest dog, sweetest dog in the world a great pet (everyone wants her)

My opinion is that I would never breed a dog that hadn't been fully health tested and shown, because so many bad things can and do happen to dogs with medical problems, time and time again people end up having to give their dogs up to shelters or worse because they cant' afford the medical bills or don't want to tend to a sick or special needs dog, and its sad, really. Of course any dog can get sick,but breeding one that has a higher chance of problems is totally preventable,

I"m not sure what the dwarf issues are, I'll leave that to the experts but I'm glad you are doing your homework. She looks like a bundle of love though, if her mission in life is it love you and that's her 'job', then that is what is meant to be..

I'm sure my girl prefers pampered princess to mother to many, heck..she acts like a big baby herself and I'm HER mom, lol I can't picture it the other way around

Kara


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