# Diarrhea in two dogs



## Diann (Apr 25, 2011)

I am befuddled and looking to you, the experts on Havanese, for some answers or suggestions. For the last month, Lucy and Charlie have been having bouts of loose to liquid stools with a lot of mucus. They have been tested for parasites, nothing. The vet put them on ID dog food and within a day or two of eating that only, the poops return to normal. Twice I have tried weaning them off the ID. The first time I tried going back to BB Wilderness puppy food I mixed a half-hand full of kibbles to the ID but within two days the stools were back to soft and mucus. They’ve both been on antibiotics (at the same time straight ID) and things were normal. This last week I tried to reintroduce a different type of kibble (Innova) VERY slowly (few kibbles at a time). Again, slimy and soft poo. 

Both dogs have the same father. Lucy’s 16 months old and Charlie just turned a year. I’ve been told between 12 months and 2 years dogs start developing food allergies. Is that true? Would it seem strange that they’d both develop the same allergy at the same time? Why is the ID tolerable when it’s so disgusting? What should I try? Why would it be both dogs if it’s not a virus or something else? Neither have shown any other signs—no temp, not lethargic; play the same as always, etc. I have heard their tummy’s gurgling at times. 

Thank you for your suggestions!


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Allergies are not the only reason for a dog to have loose stools, a diet that is too rich can cause it, stress can cause loose stools. ID is often used for dogs with pancreatitis, there are two forms acute and chronic. An acute case if caught early may be mild or in a severe case cause slimy smelly soft stools and vomiting. Too much fat in the diet, stress, and sometimes it is hereditary. These are just a few of the "many" different things that can cause loose stools.

It does not hurt to try another high quility food, first give them at least a week of firm stools before slowing changing from the food your Vet gave you. Try a few kibbles in the food at first a week or two on special food is not going to hurt your pups. 

How long did your Vet recomend you keep them on the special food? They may need to be on it for a bit longer so their tummys can heal...it is not a great food for long term...it is an excellent tool for hardening the stools and letting the tummy rest. 

I know it is really hard when our pups are sick and two have two with loose stools at the same time, must be frustrating. Sometimes we need to take things slowly.


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## Diann (Apr 25, 2011)

Pancreatitis? I've thought about that, but haven't been able to rationalize why both dogs would start having it at the same time. I also don't know what is in this magic ID stuff to so quickly get their stools back on track. When I look at the ingredents it's horrible stuff! Is there something in this ID that hardens the stools, slows down the digestive process? 

The vet did say to make sure they've both had firm, slime-less stools for at least a week before starting to transition to another food. What type of kibble for sensitive stomachs do Hav owners use and have had good success with?


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## Diann (Apr 25, 2011)

I just noticed on Science Diet's website they recommend 1 1/4 can of ID per day for a 10 lb. dog. Our vet said to feed them 1/2 can a day (split into two times a day they've been getting a 1/4 can each feeding time). Any thoughts on how much to feed them of this stuff?


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## sandypaws (Aug 8, 2012)

Tyler went through a similar situation with his stools last year after losing his brother, Bailey. I thought it was stress related as they had been together for 14 years. In fact, neither of them had ever lived without another dog. After him having to go out several times during the night, I took him to the vet. All tests were negative and she put him on a course of Flagel, gave him a low residue rx dog food and added Tylan to that regimen. Other than the Flagel, she wanted him on this indefinitely. I finally, after months, tried him on Natural Balance LID Sweet Potato and Fish Formula for small breeds. He absolutely loved it, still does and it straightened out his stools immediately. It also cured his bad breath problem. They also make treats in the same formula so he gets those too. Good luck in your quest to find the right formula for Lucy and Charlie. It's a tough thing to figure out.


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## apololaceymom (Aug 27, 2011)

I feed natural balance sweet potato and chicken. My dogs love it, and rarely have diarrhea.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

The first most important thing you need to do is get your dogs stools firm for at least a week, then go slow, if you want to change to another food introduce it very slowly. As for how much, often the recommended amout on the package is too much. If your dogs do have pancreatitis you need to make for sure that they are fully recovered before starting regular food, chronic pancreatitis can develop from small bouts that scar the pancreas over time causing a chronic form. This is a very serious illiness even when they have a mild attack. In the old days they use to fast a dog for a day or two, now days they know this puts strain back on the pancreas too soon, so they us the special food.

The way that pancreatitis is diagnosed is by the level of amylase and lypase these are elevated...but other things can also cause an elevation. Another test is a snap cPL this can comfirm pancreatitis right in the Vet's office, not all Vet's will have it, you find Vet's that have it, often have a waiting room of over weight dogs...my Vet has one and many people here think Bacon is a great treat. High Fat and too rich foods can bring on a bout of pancretitis. Surgical as well as emotional stress, too much vitamin E, there are host of things that can cause it. As well as hereditatary can make them more susceptible

The ID is not magic (although it works like it), dogs stomachs are not like ours, they do not mash up food after it goes in, enzymes do most of the work and there is a very short transit time as they do not have our intestinal tract. The ID is full of carbohydrates that come out the way they went in, this causes them to come out in a bulk form, for now you want this. 

Havanese is one of the breeds that is susceptible to pancreatitis, this is not the end of the world and need not be a problem, as long as you are care full and feed a moderate fat diet, often it's a switch to a food with a bit less protein or where the protein source is from some other animal, also watch dehydrated treats like pure liver (it is a great treat but you can give too much), watch hot dogs, cold cuts, etc. Children are great for sneaking these things to their little pals as are guests, and even family members.

Sometime when our Vets say it could be related to diet or food we think Allergy...but that may not be what they mean, yes the food is affecting them, but their system can not tolerate it, this is very different then a true food allergy. An intolarence is different and can have different levels. Think lactose intolerence some who have it can eat a bit of cheese or ice cream and have mild gas, but others are in the bathroom for hours. Regardless the food is a problem. 

I hope this helps you understand pancreatitis as well as other stomach problems that may cause your pups to need a rest. I know many will recommend diet's and advice and they all will have pros and cons. For now you need to get your pups stools hard before moving on to those suggestions. All the best.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Pancretitus can be diagnosed in the Vets office. Even my country vet does blood work for pancreatitus. Over the years I have had dogs with slimy mucus stool and was told by the vet to give boiled rice and hamburger (lean) until it ad cleared up for a while. I had one that ate it for weeks then back to the regular kibble. You can cook the hamburger or not. Good Luck.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I would not assume pancreatitis. This is for a vet or a nutritionist to determine not us.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Dave, I never said it was pancreatitis, I gave her suggestions of things that could be wrong, she ask about the Id and I explained how it works. I also explain in a simple form what pancreatitis is and how a "Vet" will diagnose it, and how sometimes they do not have all the equiptment so they often give a treatment based on symptons. Pancreatitis is very common in dogs more often the chronic form as it often has few symptons. I also don't think she is assuming anything, she is worried and curious. 

I answered Diann's questions in a responsible way, I even ask how long the Vet recommended to use the Id. 

I have great respect for nutritionalist but diagnosing pancreatitis is beyond their scope, they can come up with a great nutritional plain to address the condition, but only a Vet can diagnose pancreatitis. 

My point was to answer her questions and stress how important it is to get the stools firm and rest their tummys before returning them to a normal diet.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Sorry Robbie I have to disagree with you. I think we do a disservice to people by quessing as to what is wrong. This could be numerous things and a vet or a nutritionist is the one to determine it.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Dave, It sounds to me like we agree on the fact that it could be many different things and a Vet needs to make the dianosis, it looks like the only area of disagreement is whether a nutritionalist should be consulted make a diagnosis.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

The Laughing Magpie said:


> Dave, It sounds to me like we agree on the fact that it could be many different things and a Vet needs to make the dianosis, it looks like the only area of disagreement is whether a nutritionalist should be consulted make a diagnosis.


yeah , that's not my point. My concern is throwing out an idea, with no basis for doing so. To me it's pointless when so many things could be the problem. All that I'm saying is that a professional should be consulted and not to ask people like us that are only able to guess. Diarrhea can be serious and should not be taken lightly. Not the time for unprofessional opinions or guesses.


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## Diann (Apr 25, 2011)

I certainly don't want to cause a squabble between two people whom I admire opinions from. Over the years I've read opinions and suggestions from all of you, dog food and potty issues have always been discussed. One of my biggest puzzles is that it's with both dogs yet I cannot determine what's causing it. I think my vet is being conservative in not doing lots of procedures yet based on their weight maintaining, and other symptoms (non symptoms). I want your experiences and thoughts on what to try, questions to ask, etc. I value all of you for what you share. Thank you for your help.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

not to worry about us. Follow your vets directions and keep him posted. If you're not happy with his conservative approach, let him know or find another vet.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Diann, There is nothing wrong with be curious, Dave and I often disagree about Vet medicines and the need for preventatives, and it's ok. It is just a difference of opinon I am just prehaps more conservative when it comes to traditional Vet medicine. Dave, likes more nutrition based and natural methods, there is room for it all. I still like and value Dave's opinons, we just disagree sometimes.

My point besides answering your questions, is you need to deal with the stool and not be afraid of the Id food when your Vet suggests you use it, it has a purpose and is effective. Sometimes it takes awhile on the food, call your Vet, sometimes when we are worried and we are at the Vet's we forget what they said and sometimes they don't tell us how long.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

I think Dave and I posted at the same time I am just use more words.


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## StarrLhasa (Jun 6, 2010)

I have been told by one of the Vets at our local pet hospital tha Blue Buffalo tends to be on the rich side, and dogs whose guts are sensitive to a richer diet would do better on a diet with less fat and protein.

My Buster has had a sensitive gut from the day I brought him home from the shelter (and he was loaded with parasites). He was on Flagyl, two kinds of dewormers, antibiotics, miticides, etc.

We fed him the id formula which helped. Before that he got white rice and boiled chicken. His stools eould improve to the point where I thought I could transition him to regular food. Then his stools would get so soft he needed butt baths.

We tried pumpkin, and that would help, but I had the thought that all the courses of antibiotics, etc., had wiped out the beneficial bacteria in his gut. I asked his Vet for canine probiotics, and that helped tremendously. His stools stayed normal on regular dog food (eventually I found that Taste of Wild kibble was good for him, and both dogs are thriving on it) unless he ate something he shouldn't. 

The Vet also told me I can give Buster Pepto Bismol to firm up his stools, and I have used that with success.


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## Diann (Apr 25, 2011)

Thank you for your thoughts. It's been three days with solid, normal poo from both dogs. They have been eating staight id (canned formula). Last night I got more cans from the vet, i also picked up a small bag of dry id. Vet tech said it's the same formula so the dogs shouldn't have any problems. I'm going slow at introducing it anyway. My goal right now is to just not do butt baths for two weeks. Then I'll start worrying about switching to some food that is higher quality. 

On another note, Lucy was three ounces less than she was a couple of weeks ago. Should I worry about that? The vet tech said that even with a small dog, that little of weight fluctuation could just be time of day (eaten, pooped, etc). Do you agree. She had dropped from 10.1 lbs. to 9.8 lbs. 

Thank you again for listening and your input.


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## StarrLhasa (Jun 6, 2010)

I think your Vet tech is right on. My dogs's weights fluctuate like that, too. If you have a digital scale that is reliable at home, you can weight Lucy at the same time every day to determine if she is losing any weight. then, it might be time to worry. Just kidding. 

She is an active dog and may need to eat a little more of the id formula. As far as the kibble is concerned, changing to dry should not be a problem, but they will be drinking a little more water than with the canned.

Please keep us posted.


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## El Bueno Habanero (Oct 20, 2009)

Did your vet tested their stools for Giardia? I've had the same problem with mine two, and it turned out to be Giardia. Tummy’s gurgling, smelly winds, butt baths few times a day, etc. The strange thing was that all of a sudden they would be ok for few days, and then get soft stools again. They were first put on antibiotics, it did help some but not totally, and then they got a Panacure for 5 days. They're doing great since. Just an idea to ask your vet about.


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## Diann (Apr 25, 2011)

Update and new question: 
We have transitioned Charlie over to dry ID and he's doing fine. Stools are good consistency. Lucy on the other hand didn't have as much success changing over to the dry ID food. She again got loose and slimy stools when I started giving her dry ID. 
She's been back on the canned only and again, stools are good. 

Now my new questions: 
1) Lucy didn't have all her premolars come in. are these teeth used for chewing? If she didn't have them to chew food, could the dry food be too big for her tummy to disolve and use nad then cause her diarrhea.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Diann said:


> Update and new question:
> We have transitioned Charlie over to dry ID and he's doing fine. Stools are good consistency. Lucy on the other hand didn't have as much success changing over to the dry ID food. She again got loose and slimy stools when I started giving her dry ID.
> She's been back on the canned only and again, stools are good.
> 
> ...


check with your vet , but dogs really don't chew their food.http://k9joy.com/RawFoodForDogs/DigestiveSystemExcerpt.pdf She should be fine.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Diann, Do you have a follow up appointment, you may need one. Dogs like people can heal at different rates, if Lucy is doing fine on the canned and not the kibble (dogs on kibble need to drink more water), is there a reason you can't keep her on it for awhile? Hopefully there tummys will heal soon and then you can put them back on a reg. diet.

As a suggestion, do you remember the food the breeder had them on? If not you might get in touch with the breeder and ask, because this may be a food you would be able to transition to in the future after you have success with a consistent and firm stool for a period of time. Tummy problems can take sometime to heal and each dog, like humans are different. I could be possible that Charlie transitions and heals quicker.

As for the teeth dogs don't really chew like we do, but they will mash/break up large pieces with their teeth to smaller pieces in order to swallow. It is ok to wet dry kibble to make it softer...but if Lucy is doing better on the canned, you might consider keeping just her on it while her tummy heals. 

I no how it feels when our pups have a problem and we can't just fix it fast, it feels us with worry. Just be patience and consistent, keep in touch with your vet (if only by phone) and you will get through this period.


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## StarrLhasa (Jun 6, 2010)

Diann, 

Just wondering if you have time for an update on your tender-tummy duo.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Diann said:


> Pancreatitis? I've thought about that, but haven't been able to rationalize why both dogs would start having it at the same time. I also don't know what is in this magic ID stuff to so quickly get their stools back on track. When I look at the ingredents it's horrible stuff! Is there something in this ID that hardens the stools, slows down the digestive process?
> 
> The vet did say to make sure they've both had firm, slime-less stools for at least a week before starting to transition to another food. What type of kibble for sensitive stomachs do Hav owners use and have had good success with?


 My Zoey cant handle rich food and was doing well on wellness. The food I was giving went threw a recall so I had a great sales person talk me into trying Earthborn. Zoey had no problems with the switch and I even had to give full strength because of the recall. I chose meadow feast with lamb. The sisters had never had lamb but its agreeing with their tummies and there poops are perfect..


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## Becky Chittenden (Feb 4, 2009)

you might want to add about a teaspoon of plain organic yogurt. If there is a bacterial imbalance it should neutralize it. It has alot of other plusses too.


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## Miss Paige (Apr 4, 2008)

I agree Becky-mine love yogurt. I have started them on the Greek Yogurt-plain-and they really like it. Someone told me the Greek was better for them but don't hold me to that.


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## Diann (Apr 25, 2011)

Thanks for your all your posts. I have been chicken to try changing Lucy's diet yet. With all the holiday activity and her therapy work, I haven't wanted to mess with success. I know the ID isn't ideal for her but as long as she's on it, she's fine. 

Charlie's back to normal, still earing the dry ID. The last small bag we bought for him was from the pet store instead of the vet. The clerk asked us if we had a prescription card when we checked out. He said that ID can be harmful if it's not prescribed by a vet. Thoughts you might have on that? We know ID isn't the best for them, but can it be harmful?


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Diann, I almost PM ed you about this subject. My little Bolonka girl had a acute bout of pancreatitis and nearly died many months ago she became ill at the Vet's during boarding, she lost 1 pd in less then 24 hours, she had the greasy smelly stools and had progressed to vomiting it smelled bad too. My Vet is able to do a snap test to confirm but he also sent blood work out. In the morning I had to take her for anti nausea shots and fluid under the skin, in the evening he came to my house and gave another shot and fluids, this went on for four days. She was also on an antibiotic...if her pancreatitis had been milder, he would not have put her on an antibiotic. I got to keep her home because she was too stressed at the Vets...two of my Vets live about two blocks away...stress can slow healing in most illiness especially stomach problems, Khloe was fasted for about 12 hours, today they know its important to keep the intestines working during healing. The ID is mostly carbohydrates It comes out pretty much unchanged from when it went in...some dogs who are not stool eaters will try to eat their poop while on this, it goes away after they are on a regular diet, it smells like food to them. 

My Vet was great I was only charged for the meds...not his time...or the food...or the appointments. My Vet thought someone on his staff fed her Bacon or country ham...he did manage to trace what caused it...a food rep. gave the kennel staff little packages of Freeze dried Beef Liver...the kennel staff thought these little pieces of food made a better treat for a such a small dog, they feed only these and they are made in America. These treats are normally great, the problem was they fed too much almost the equivalent of 3 ounces of beef liver in a 42 hour period, that is a boat load for a six pound dog...there are instructions on the package about feeding...they were able to trace it through inventory. My Vet took this really personally. The easy way to understand what happened: Not only was it too much, but it was far too rich in that amount, liver is an organ meat full of vitamins that become toxic at high levels.

I am a writer most of my writing for many years have been medical and of late Veterinary, I rewrite these for doctors and Vets, it is important that I vet all the information they give me to write for them..yeah they're experts...it is up to me to make sense of it all...if they could write and explain clearly with a nice flow, they could do it themselves. As many people have the internet compulsion when their dog or a loved one is sick...mine is I call all my sources... I want all the details...I want to understand how it works.

It has been in my mind you might be "chicken" or "scared" to change the diet...I was too.
So scary are stomach problems in our pets...we don't want to push them. The ID is not harmful in itself...I say it all the time these diets have a use, short term healing, end stage, and chronic disease. The ID will not give your dog enough protein as a long term diet, it's not for that, it's use is limited to healing. 

I will share with you the pep talk I was given...my Vets all know me personally...they push...to be fair so do I. Sometimes when our dogs get sick with a tummy problem it is not they are allergic, it is not that simple, some dogs need less protein then others, some genetically have sensitive stomachs, sometimes it's the protein source, if thats the problem, some dogs do well on fish, but others do not, some diets are just to rich for some dogs, a dog who is very active can usually have a diet high in protein, this does not mean you give them a inferior diet...just different.

Charley will probably do really well getting back on a normal food, Lucy may take more time, start slowly...you can always go back for a day or two or give less reg. food. I started by mixing the two together in increasing amounts...I added kiddle after a week...it was scary...this is normal...it took two weeks. You will need to be careful for about 6 months with giving any high salt or rich human treat. Your two pups will be fine think of the ID as your safe net. Hopefully this will be a one time thing. I also must warn you I followed my poor girl around when she pooped so I could check it, poor thing could not do her busness in private. Today I no longer worry but I do watch all treats...we are in the six month window. Thanksgiving none of my dogs got their usually few scraps of white meat turkey...DH dropped a piece of ham on the floor and Khloe got it, she was fine but not extra treats that day. I did not write on the forum about Khloe as I was busy dealing with it.

You really need to try to get them on a normal diet, they have diets for sensitive tummys if this will help you feel confident...I know you will get through it. I also know it is scary...we love our pups so much. Hope this helps you understand.


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