# Different pricing for health guarantee



## DavidU (Sep 21, 2009)

I'm new to this forum am very appreciative of all the information I've learned over the last several weeks.

I think we did our homework and found a reputable breeder. We put down a deposit and will be picking up our new puppy in a few weeks. The breeder is giving us an option I've not heard of anyone else offering. We can pay $1,600 for the puppy with a 6 year health guarantee or $1,200 with no guarantee, although we would still have 7 days to have our vet examine the puppy and confirm she is in good health. I'd appreciate any thoughts on which option I should choose.


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

This sounds odd to me.

We paid $1200 for one Hav and $1500 for the other and both came with health guarantees, although one was just for 2 years.

Maybe this is something new, but I think the forum breeders will give you their opinions.


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## Renee (Mar 27, 2008)

What does the health guarantee entail?


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## DavidU (Sep 21, 2009)

I need to get some clarification on this, but as I understand it, the health guarantee covers congenital problems the puppy may develop during the first 6 years. She would either provide a new puppy (not something I think we would opt for) or reimburse for vet care up to the purchase price of the puppy.


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

Sounds interesting.....never heard this option yet. It could be a trend coming...

So, will that extra $500.00 go into a fund for problems down the line with puppies? An extra $500.00 per puppy adds up quickly in an account and I think the breeder is hoping there are no problems with the puppies who have protection for 5 years, because if no problems, more cash for the breeders. Just thinking out loud....... I am not a breeder. 

And...........On the other hand.....Why is this breeder offering this option? Were there problems with his/her puppies in the past? Or, is this breeder protecting themselves from future hazzles?

I would say, if you are going to buy a puppy for $1200 without protection, I would make sure the parents did not have any problems for sure. Ask for soap pictures of the legs.

Have you visited the breeder's home yet? Met the parents of the pup?

What will give you peace of mind? How well do you trust this breeder? Will they stand behind their guarantee? You have to do what is right for you, you alone can make this decision.


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

Give me a break. I have never in my life heard of having to pay more for a health guarantee--- Makes me wonder if this breeder knows something you don't.... Did you personally get to see the health testing on the parents?
Personally I think it's a scam so the breeder can get more money. Which is wrong- I would run the other way and look for a new breeder.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

Does the breeder do health testing on the parents? Did he/she provide proof of it so you could look it up yourself?

I've never heard of this before though, either a breeder offers a health guarantee or doesn't.


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## DavidU (Sep 21, 2009)

Thanks for the responses. 

Yes, I've visited the breeder's home and met both parents. Based on everything I've researched, the breeder has a good reputation and has been breeding Havanese puppies for many years. I feel comfortable with her and don't really have any reservations, but the choice on the health guarantee caught me a little off guard. She did indicate that she just recently started offering this option. She will provide me the papers showing the parents health tests. The puppy we put our deposit on is the black and white female pictured in my initial post. I took the photo on our visit.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

The puppy is adorable and I hope this works out for you.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

No matter what, verify the health testing of both parents yourself on www.offa.org - that will help set your mind at ease. If you need assistance with this, just ask. Many of us will walk you through this process. (Do not take paper documentation offered by the breeder as the final word. It needs to be posted online.)

Also, make sure your health guarantee is in writing.

Best wishes with whatever you decide!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Our puppy was guaranteed to be "in excellent health" at the time we received him, and could be returned for a full refund or replacement if found to be unhealthy upon examination by the date of his next vaccination, which ws about 2 weeks after we picked him up. He is also guaranteed against _life threatening, congenital_ health issues for life. If he were to develop one, we would have the choice of replacement with another puppy. (Like we'd do that!<g>) OR help with treatment costs up to the purchase price of the puppy.

It made me feel that the breeders really had faith in the quality and health of the pups they were raising to be willing to pup themselves on the line to this extent. A breeder who has many puppies coming back for health-related reasons is not going to want to make this kind of a commitment.

We also were given copies of both parents health histories, copies of the health test results, soaped pix of both parents, (we soaped the puppy together when I went to pick him up, so we didn't need photos of that) We also got the results of Kodi's BAER hearing test.

There was not "option" for buying a puppy from our breeder without a guarantee. I talked to a number of breeders before settling on the Kings, and NONE of them offered an arrangement like that. (although few offered the comprehensive, life-long guarantee that the Kings did) IMO, either a breeder believes they are producing good quality puppies and will stand behind them, or they don't. If they aren't confident in the quality and health of their puppies, I don't want to buy from them!

I think, if you didn't have a gut feeling that this was wrong, you wouldn't have posted here looking for advice. If you read through a lot of old posts here, you will find LOTS by people who bought health problems they didn't bargain for by falling for an adorable face and not doing their homework.

I have a friend who is also a dog trainer who helped my find my puppy. She kept reminding me through the entire search that I had to be willing to walk away AT ANY TIME if it wasn't the right puppy. That included walking away from a deposit, if necessary. It may feel like a "waste of money" to walk away from a situation where you have already put down a deposit, but you could be "wasting" a few hundred now to save THOUSANDS later in vet bills, to say nothing of the heartache of watching a beloved pet suffer.

Karen


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I agree with everyone that you should check the parents health testing yourself. As I understand it, this breeder is giving you a healthy puppy (same puppy regardless of what you pay) The extra $500 dollars is like an insurance policy should something come up in the future. I think it is an interesting concept *IF* and only if the health guarantee would pay for Vet bills that may arise. Let's face it, after even a year you are not going to want to give back your dog for another puppy. If your Hav does develop a health problem, you will end up spending way more than $500 so having the breeder pay for or contribute to the costs would be great. And to be honest even the best breeders with the best lines will sometimes produce a less than perfect pup. In the breeders defense, this may be a way for them to afford to offer this option. (if 9 out of 10 puppies never need it-- she has an account for the one that does.)


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

David,

Can you show us which breeder is it? Perhaps people on the forum have gotten puppies from this breeder or know info about them.. 

Ryan


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

DavidU said:


> She will provide me the papers showing the parents health tests.


David you should see the results of health testing on the parents *before* you buy your dog. You want to know that the parents do not have genetic problems that can be passed on to your dog. Any responsible breeder is going to give you a "healthy" pup--meaning it isn't sick right? But what you are most concerned with-or should be is about the kinds of problems that don't show up right away. Your pup could have liver problems, or heart problems or patellas that need surgery and these are things that won't be immediately obvious. These are things that are heartbreaking and expensive down the road that you hope to avoid by getting offspring of health tested parents.

I've not heard of this kind of health guarentee before and it sounds fishy to me. Whenever I hear that a breeder offers to replace a puppy if it's sick, I worry. How many people would choose that option?? I also don't like the health guarentee where they say if the dog dies or has a life threatening genetic problem...things could be pretty bad without being life threatening in the eyes of some breeders.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Beamer said:


> David,
> 
> Can you show us which breeder is it? Perhaps people on the forum have gotten puppies from this breeder or know info about them..
> 
> Ryan


David and I have been talking privately. It is a very well known breeder and one of the longest in the Havanese breed. However, having said that, my advice still stands about verifying the health testing of the parents online first. I don't trust paper documentation, especially if it isn't posted online. The health testing is expensive, but the online documentation is *not*.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

DavidU said:


> The breeder is giving us an option I've not heard of anyone else offering. We can pay $1,600 for the puppy with a 6 year health guarantee or $1,200 with no guarantee.


:frusty::frusty::frusty:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Missy said:


> I agree with everyone that you should check the parents health testing yourself. As I understand it, this breeder is giving you a healthy puppy (same puppy regardless of what you pay) The extra $500 dollars is like an insurance policy should something come up in the future. I think it is an interesting concept *IF* and only if the health guarantee would pay for Vet bills that may arise. Let's face it, after even a year you are not going to want to give back your dog for another puppy. If your Hav does develop a health problem, you will end up spending way more than $500 so having the breeder pay for or contribute to the costs would be great. And to be honest even the best breeders with the best lines will sometimes produce a less than perfect pup. In the breeders defense, this may be a way for them to afford to offer this option. (if 9 out of 10 puppies never need it-- she has an account for the one that does.)


I think if a breeder is having anything close to a one-in-ten hit rate of health problems in their pups, they should be looking at their breeding stock awfully closely.

Karen


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

David, Missy's comment got me to thinking further about this. What exactly is the "health guarantee"? If it doesn't include covering the vet bills, I think it is useless anyway.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

If the breeder would re-emburse the health costs up to the purchase price of the puppy for congenital problems for the next 6 years it is like an insurance policy. If you check on the health tests of the parents yourself and are satisfied then it's just a gamble on your part. Is it worth it to you to take a chance of maybe losing $400. or gaining $1200. if you can prove the need. Or maybe gaining $1600. toward health care if the purchase price then includes the $400. That's a good question too. Is the purchase price then $1200. or $1600.?? Could get very sticky but an interesting concept.
Carole


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Welcome David. So glad to see another guy on here. Especially a nice name like David. In my opinion ,warranties are almost always in the favour of the person offering them.


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## DavidU (Sep 21, 2009)

Thanks for everyone's input. After reading all the responses, I realize I need more information. I've requested a copy of the actual health guarantee and the parents names (I met the mother and father during my visit, but do not know their "registered" names). Based on the good advice I've received here, I will check to see if the parent's health records are posted on-line and closely review them and the health guarantee. The breeder was very gracious and seemed knowledgeable, so I'm going to assume everything is as it appears unless I find information to the contrary. Thanks again, and I'll let you know how everything works out.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Some of the old time breeders know their lines very well and have had years of breeding them. I'd venture to say they know more than all of us combined. Whether they choose to use that knowledge wisely, who knows, but after learning who the breeder is I'm guessing she's trustworthy. 
The old time breeders came into the breed and there wasn't cerf or BAER etc testing. I think back then it was hip testing. Along the way more tests came along and some they think are worthless, others they agree with. 
We've talked to and gone to 3 BAER clinics and not one has had a hav with a hearing problem. Then again there's a well known breeder who has a huge party with health testing available and out there with all different lines they've found problems with hearing. They found one of the problems was that the hearing test equipment is sensitive and when moved around can give a bad result and some dogs that were retested were fine.
Havs are one of the most health tested breeds in actual numbers, not percentages. Think of that and then think of the huge number of other dogs out there. A hav ring at a show is small compared to most rings.
I bought a dog without the testing put online but I was also given all of the test results and could verify them with the vet and they checked out. If the test results aren't online, ask for the paperwork and call the vets that did the testing if you want one of their dogs.
My concern is what isn't covered on OFA to be honest with you. There are people breeding dogs that they know are passing on heart problems and it will snowball and snowball until it's out of control in our breed like the King Charles is going through. One of these days because of them we'll all wind up at heart clinics doing ultrasounds on our dogs with results on OFA but until then the breeding will be rampant.
If you're comfortable with the breeder, especially an old time breeder, and you can verify what isn't online, why not buy the puppy?


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Jasper came with no papers, no proof of health testing, and no info on his parents... but he did come with a 5 year health guarantee...LOL. It was written quite clearly that if a health issue came up within 5 years she would happily take Jasper back and replace him with another puppy (choice of the litter, also with no real info) I questioned her on this, as I knew I would never give Jasper back if she would instead help pay for costs of medical care. She said she takes it on a case by case basis and honestly added how difficult the owners are. Well, Jasper was my first and I had worked myself up so by that point that I was going to get a puppy there was no way I was turning back. Heading towards year 4 with him and although he has had issues...they have not been health related-- other than "almost" luxating patella. Cash came with all the papers and checked out perfectly but with no health guarantee, and he has cost us over 5k in medical exppenses in his first 2 years. 

If you can afford it...no matter how good the breeder, I recommend pet insurance. It costs me @ $40 for both boys a month and has already paid for itself for 5 years. We chose an emergencies only policy and they only pay80- 90% of customary costs (so better for you if you live in the center of the country not the coasts) so for our big $3500 dollar bill when Cash got mysteriously sick we got back $2200.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

krandall said:


> I think if a breeder is having anything close to a one-in-ten hit rate of health problems in their pups, they should be looking at their breeding stock awfully closely.
> 
> Karen


Karen, you are right of course. I just randomly picked a percentage. But I would be curious to hear from breeders how often one of their pups has a health issue in the first 5 years... they don't have to be congenital or very serious like a liver shunt.... but cherry eye, or a deformity that should not cause any health problems, but could down the road... or slight CD or turned out legs that could get worse with age. These are not the real scary things, and they happen in all breeds. When ever you choose a living thing to care for there is a good chance that something can develop. If a breeder told me they never had a puppy with any problems I would be just as skeptical or more than if they told me once in a while "this or that" shows up in a puppy.


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

This is a very interesting concept. You have all the info above. I just find this breeder to have very reasonable prices compared to most I have heard of on the Forum. The guarantee is only as good as the person giving it. If a breeder has financial difficulties or there is a dispute over the cause of the problem, any guarantee can be worthless. Just look at some of the past post.

If this breeder has been around for a while with a good reputations you would have a better chance than most with getting something needed out of the guarantee.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

MopTop Havanese said:


> Give me a break. I have never in my life heard of having to pay more for a health guarantee--- Makes me wonder if this breeder knows something you don't.... Did you personally get to see the health testing on the parents?
> Personally I think it's a scam so the breeder can get more money. Which is wrong- I would run the other way and look for a new breeder.


I am wondering the same thing Katy. Odd!


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Missy said:


> I agree with everyone that you should check the parents health testing yourself. As I understand it, this breeder is giving you a healthy puppy (same puppy regardless of what you pay) The extra $500 dollars is like an insurance policy should something come up in the future. I think it is an interesting concept *IF* and only if the health guarantee would pay for Vet bills that may arise. Let's face it, after even a year you are not going to want to give back your dog for another puppy. If your Hav does develop a health problem, you will end up spending way more than $500 so having the breeder pay for or contribute to the costs would be great. And to be honest even the best breeders with the best lines will sometimes produce a less than perfect pup. In the breeders defense, this may be a way for them to afford to offer this option. (if 9 out of 10 puppies never need it-- she has an account for the one that does.)


Missy, I'm sort of leaning this way myself. It is an interesting concept and one that could definitely be a scam for some buyers out there, but still ... Interesting! I also agree with your last advice about insurance.


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