# play advice needed



## BearsMom (Jul 16, 2012)

I think I need some help....

Bear has always been playful but gentle w/ me. We play multiple times a day and in the past (almost) year that he's been here, he has never snapped at me. Yesterday, one of my friends brought her dog over to visit. This wasn't the first time that Bear has had a play date w/ this dog, but it was the first time that they came to "Bear's turf." They had a great time...playing, barking, chasing, etc. They played for almost 3 hours straight. 
At one point, we took them outside for a potty break and Bear found something (we have woods behind our house) and began playing w/ it. I went to take it away from him (not even thinking that I was going for his mouth area) and for the first time ever, he snapped, growled and bit me. He's never done this with any of his toys or food, or with anything else! I was not only shocked but upset because now I'm wondering if there is a "new behavior" that I should be concerned with. 
I know that he was all worked up from playing but I'm not convinced that I should "chalk it up" to that.....any insight from the more experienced folks on here would be greatly appreciated!! I definitely do not want this to begin to occur more frequently.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Please do not be upset. ALL dogs have a degree of resource guarding. Sometimes it never surfaces . But sometimes if they find something REALLY APPEALING on their own , it will kick in sort of speak. I have never seen it but once in my Molly. She found a piece of chicken that "fell from the sky" somehow into our back yard. I noticed she found something ,so I walked up to her and she growled at me. It took a little coaxing before she left it so that I could take it. I had trained her to leave things quite well ,but this was something she found on her own and really valued. I believe one should never take something from a dog unless its' a real danger. If you take things away without them voluntarily surrendering it, it teaches to value things even more. If you heard a growl first , thats' when you stop and listen, so that they don't take the next step. ie. air snap or actual biting. Something to work on. though.


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## BearsMom (Jul 16, 2012)

Thanks for your input on this Dave. I really wasn't sure how to read the situation, and it's been replaying in my mind since last night. I didn't stop and think before I reached down, nor did I use the usual "leave it" command to warn him that it was something that he shouldn't have. I've been telling myself that it happened so quickly, during unusual circumstances, that this might not be indicative of how Bear will be in the future. On the other hand, I certainly would not want this to happen w/ my nieces....

Still learning with this little guy! :wink:


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

BearsMom said:


> Thanks for your input on this Dave. I really wasn't sure how to read the situation, and it's been replaying in my mind since last night. I didn't stop and think before I reached down, nor did I use the usual "leave it" command to warn him that it was something that he shouldn't have. I've been telling myself that it happened so quickly, during unusual circumstances, that this might not be indicative of how Bear will be in the future. On the other hand, I certainly would not want this to happen w/ my nieces....
> 
> Still learning with this little guy! :wink:


yes it can happen in a split second. That's why it's always good to pay attention to approaching any time a dog is in possession of something. We all do it ,but when they have something novel especially , we need to be aware.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

There is another thing to be considered, which is nicely illustrated in the graphic below from www.thecrossovertrainer.com. That is the concept of "trigger stacking". A dog may tolerate something with good grace when that is the ONLY trigger. But if there are multiple triggers "stacked" such as a new dog in his home and a high level of excitement because he hasn't settled down from a recent play session, things can go wrong quickly. (as Dave said)

These are often the times when people say the dog bit "with no warning". Sometimes there ARE warnings and the people didn't notice them. Other times, there may actually BE little or no warning, because the dog has just been stressed by too big a "stack" of stressors. The proverbial "straw that breaks the camel's back".

I suspect that a LOT of dog bites to children are a result of trigger stacking. And it sounds to me that this is what happened with Bear.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

good stuff Karen, I have heard trainers that have a lot of aggression cases under their belts , say there is always a warning. Most people like you say miss them. Dogs are not naturally aggressive except in prey situations and usually go out of their way with giving warnings. When you punish them for growling they will refrain from giving the warning and go straight to the bite.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I liked this comment on aggression from one of our members at IAABC that is really versed in this topic .... ""The "bottom line" is that aggression is in the eye of the beholder - we
frequently miss that what we see as perfectly "reasonable" and
un-threatening is perceived by the animal differently and we are surprised
when it "suddenly becomes aggressive" because we failed to take into
account that their perspective may differ.
Other than predation, the rest, from the perspective of the "aggressor" is
a defensive reaction to a perceived threat.
IMO, that is one of the most valuable pieces of information you can give to
your foster homes - if they see any evidence of "aggression" you are
dealing with an animal in a state of fight/flight (and way over threshold).
Archer's work is interesting - important to remember it is comparative
psychology and therefore written from a perspective of observing animals as
a less neurologically complex version of humans (hence many references to
intentionality which is not documented in animals)."


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> good stuff Karen, I have heard trainers that have a lot of aggression cases under their belts , say there is always a warning. Most people like you say miss them. Dogs are not naturally aggressive except in prey situations and usually go out of their way with giving warnings. When you punish them for growling they will refrain from giving the warning and go straight to the bite.


I guess what I meant by "little or no" warning is that when stressors are stacked, and people haven't noticed THAT (the fact that the dog is ALREADY close to the edge) the next warning may be so brief that the majority of pet people miss it or mis-percieve it. How often do we hear that "the dog bit without warning"? These folks aren't lying (and I know you didn't think they were)... they just don't see the warning signs. If people are aware of the dangers of "stacking" stressors, they may be able to avoid bite situations by being more careful, even if they can't read more subtle warnings that a bite is imminent.

A long time ago, when Kodi was a puppy, I related an incident where I took him to my brother's house on Christmas Eve. They also had a young dog, and I thought the two of them would have fun together. They would have. But my nieces got very concerned that Kodi had "stolen" one of Sammy's new, Christmas present toys. They just couldn't understand this, since they had given Kodi a new toy of his own. They cornered him to try to take the toy away, and I heard him erupt in a completely un-Kodi-like screechy growling. This wasn't play... he MEANT it. He was TELLING them to back off.

Fortunately, he scared them off and ran into the other room. I told them that I would deal with him. He was under the dining room table at that point, still holding the toy, and growling at even me. I just sat down on the floor, waited for him to calm down, then traded the toy for a piece of turkey. I am SURE that if one of the (young adult) cousins had tried to take the toy, they would have gotten bitten, and I'm not sure that he wouldn't have bitten me at that point.

But he certainly didn't understand why he should relinquish the toy. What was the difference between this one and the one he had been given originally? It was the humans who were putting the values of "Kodi's toy" and "Sammy's toy" on the two stuffed animals. Neither dog cared.

*I* learned a lesson too. While I didn't put it as concisely as this "stacked trigger" chart in my mind, I learned that my very soft, very sweet, gentle dog needed to be kept out of situations that were so highly charged with excitement. Now, he either stays home on holidays, or if we will be away from home too long, I take his crate with me. If there is any chance that things will get too exciting, he either sits in my lap or goes in his crate. I don't put him in situations where he can get so over-aroused. Of course now, at 4, he's less easily over-arroused than he was at his first Christmas, at 8 months. He SEEMED "all grown up" to me at that time, in comparison to the tiny puppy I brought home. But I now know, that an 8 month old (or even 18 month old!) brain is far from mature. He needed more help than I gave him in that situation.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

good story Karen. It reminded me of a funny one , at least I least I thought it was funny. A few years ago when we used to go camping and to the doggie beach a lot I said to Gwen, "there's an accident waiting to happen, " . To make a long story short ,can't type like I used to lol, this guy was greeting this other guys dog. The dog was giving off all kinds of stress/calming signals and this guy was obviously ignorant of dog behavior. The owner didn't know any better either. I said to the guy , "you are stressing that man's dog out. And he says ...ahh you're crazy. I said OK. Within thirty seconds the dog bit him in the face and I;ll never forget the look on his bloody face as he looked to find a towel . lol


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## Tia (Nov 28, 2012)

Its sooo true what you are both saying - Dave and Karen. I took Doug to soccer with me on Sunday to watch my brother. Mainly trying to get him used to situations with more activity. A little girl wanted to play with him and they were lovely together but I could tell that it was getting to a point where it was getting a bit much for Doug so I did the same and sat him on my lap to calm down and told the little girl he needed to have a rest.

Mind you it was soo nice to see him interacting so well with a young child but I was such a hawke lol


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tia said:


> Its sooo true what you are both saying - Dave and Karen. I took Doug to soccer with me on Sunday to watch my brother. Mainly trying to get him used to situations with more activity. A little girl wanted to play with him and they were lovely together but I could tell that it was getting to a point where it was getting a bit much for Doug so I did the same and sat him on my lap to calm down and told the little girl he needed to have a rest.
> 
> Mind you it was soo nice to see him interacting so well with a young child but I was such a hawke lol


We've got to watch out for our babies!


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