# Hard Mouth - Does Your Hav Have One?



## Addrian (May 22, 2008)

I'm a little upset... I took Darley to a trainer while we went on vacation. The trainer said that she has a "hard mouth" and that if she was a rottweiler she would suggest I take her back. I've not thought that it was anything but puppy behavior and we do work with her about biting. She said that she has a Terrier tempermant and a strong prey drive. She said that I should take all toys away that have fur on them and that when she attacks them and shakes her head she is trying to kill it.... don't all puppies do that? She plays with our Siberian who is mellow and usually lets her get away with anything. I just don't know what to do! She said that my puppy should never be around children! Can anyone tell me more... this is my first Hav.

She is energetic and plays hard with the big dog and really doesn't cuddle until she's tired... is that normal? Everyone talks about cuddling so much... maybe I should let her play so much with the other dog?


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Not sure what a hard mouth is??... BUT.. my Beamer loves shaking the crap out of his toys and throwing them up in the air.. what else is he saposed to do with them? lol

Ryan


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Cute name, Darley. Addrian, I don't know what to say. Maybe some hav owners here have an answer for you. That is scary for you to hear that your hav shouldn't be around children. I hope you get some answers. And, welcome to the forum.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I have never heard the expression hard mouth and to be honest, I would suggest another opinion as it makes your hav sound scary! And if the trainer is that concerned maybe that training is out of his/her level. I will say between my 3 dogs (2 havs, 1 malt) they have different personalities. I would say how I can/should play with one is different than another. Isabelle is very stubborn and will take the alpha role and boss anyone around (people included!) if they let her. I do stick to my guns more with her- make her go all the way to a down, listen, stop and wait, etc. Surprising her prey drive isn't as strong as my havanese Dora who I play tug of war with. Dora generally listens, if there are animals to chase, she is harder to pull of them but as soon as she trees them, she comes back. She shakes the heck out of toys all day long too! Dasher just wants to make everyone happy. I love to watch him interact with the girls. He knows Belle and Dora and treats them differently. If you throw a toy and Dora goes after it he goes faster and harder to try and beat her, she usually wins. If Belle goes after it, he generally hangs back and lets her get it but she loses interest and he takes it slowly and then runs as fast as he can. He is definitely the easy going boy of the group! As to not fit around kids- Belle & Dora both are certified therapy dogs so while they have high prey drive, that doesnt make them crazy 

Good luck, keep us posted and welcome!

Amanda


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## Redorr (Feb 2, 2008)

How old is your Hav? Puppies need to learn bite inhibition from other dogs - they get it through lots of socialization play. They gradually move from biting to mouthing. Lola is 11 months and has been super social since I brought her home. About the only thing that she is perfect on is when I say, "no biting" she immediately stops bitting and begins licking the same spot. That said, we play tug with the large flossie toy - and she growls and is very terrier-like in that moment. To no detriment.

The cuddling surely doesn't happen when she wants to play! We went to a baby shower on Sunday and Lola played like crazy with another Hav and a Visila for about 2 hours and then spent the last hour cuddled in my lap, dozing off and kissing. A great payoff for hard play!


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## Addrian (May 22, 2008)

Darley is 13 weeks. My husband is so upset, he almost cried yesterday. We love her, she is so good, she sleeps through the night, potties outside, does her sits and downs... for a 13 week old we're impressed! I've had several puppies and while I can't remember how long it took them to not mouth it's no different from them, she hardly ever touches my hands but apparently touched the trainers ALOT.


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## Redorr (Feb 2, 2008)

Maybe the trainer deserved it!? :suspicious:

She is young and it would be quite remarkable for her to have a soft mouth already. Can you take her to puppy classes or puppy social hours at a training center? They are great ways to have her around dogs that are screened for health and behavior.


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## kelrobin (Jan 21, 2008)

Addrian, if I remember, your puppy is very young (how old is she again?) Your trainer may not understand the Havanese and how to train them . . . they are very different from many bigger dogs. You might want to find another trainer and get another opinion or wait a couple of months until she is a little older. I think all small dogs "attack" their furry toys which makes me question the experience of the trainer with toy breeds . . . I have been around many that do the same thing. Jackson attacks his opposum and can be quite wild. He nips at our ankles when we play and I have to stop and tell him firmly NO. I do think it is a herding instinct, but they can be trained to not do it, and part of it is just wanting to play and needing to taught the bounderies. And you might want to try and acclimate Darley around some smaller children just to see how she reacts - maybe in a park, pool, etc. With supervised exposure, I think most Havs are wonderful around children.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

I am guessing that what the trainer means by hard mouth is that she bites hard. For example, a lab usually has a soft mouth because it is a hunting dog. When it retrieves a duck it needs to hold it gently in it's mouth to preserve the duck intact for the hunter. A hard mouth lab would destroy a duck before it got it back. 
I'm not sure that most puppies wouldn't be hard mouthed when it was learning to play. You should get another opinion.


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## dschles (Jan 23, 2007)

I would second getting another opinion. The only references I have seen to hard mouth are for hunting dogs -- how hard they squeeze the prey. For hunting dogs, soft mouthed is preferred.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Addrian, I would get another opinion. For a trainer to decide that a 13 week old Havanese puppy is too rough to be trained and should be returned seems more than a little weird to me. Puppies nip and they bite and it is up to YOU to teach them to have a soft mouth if they didn't learn it from their dam or their siblings. A strong prey drive perhaps, but good grief, your puppy is only 13 weeks old. As for grabbing toys and shaking them, well, duh, they are dogs and their play imitates what they would do in the wild. If I had to return every dog I've ever had who grabbed and shook toys, I'd have had to return, well, ALL of them. 
As for cuddling, my McKenna cuddles when SHE wants to and that is always when she is tired. Otherwise she has places to go (outside, inside wherever), things to do (chase the cat, eat the brand new green peppers off the plants) and sights to see (whatever the neighbors are doing out front).


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## Addrian (May 22, 2008)

Thank you guys so much, you've all made me realize... I have a completely normal hav.


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

I'm with everyone else...get another opinion. It sounds like you're familiar with puppies so I think you would know if you had some crazed Kujo on your hands. What kind of credentials does this trainer have? Is there another trainer that you can get a good recommendation on that you could get an opinion from? My most submissive non-alpha laid back dogs will still grab their stuffed toys and shake the stuffing out of them!

I can also imagine that a tiny 13 week old Neezer might feel they have to be a big fighter to play with a Husky. Maybe that has something to do with it? 
Please don't panic or let your DH be sad over it without further info.

Beverly


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Welcome, Addrian! That must have been very upsetting to hear. I also agree that you should get another opinion. Lincoln was a BIG biter as a puppy. I was really concerned that he would always want to play with us using his mouth. My younger son was about 6 when we got him, and he'd cautiously ask us, "Is Lincoln in a biting mood?" because it seemed like he'd always want to play by chewing on us.

He is totally mellow now - no more problems at all. He was a very "oral" kind of dog - needed lots of chewies (snozzles, flossies, etc.) to keep him satisfied in that way (and away from my coffee table, molding, chair legs).

We were really concerned he would be hyper all his life. He really really matured around 2 years old and became, well, a bum! Don't lose hope. 13 weeks is too early to make such a judgment. :hug:


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

My guys rip the hell out of their toys. I can tease them with my hands so they'll try to bite them, but they never bite that hard unless I really get them going and they try to jump at my fingers. But then that's my fault. As soon as I say "ouch" they promptly let go. 

If you pup isn't biting your hands I wouldn't worry about. If Darley play bites but doesn't hurt you and let's go when told to, then I wouldn't worry about it either.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Welcome Addrian, it just sounds like your wee puppy needs a little training, and don't they all? From what you write, it sounds like you two are already working on this area anyway. It also sounds like your "trainer" needs some training too. :suspicious: 

Yes, biting needs to be stopped and that is something I work on with the puppies while they are still in my home, but I certainly don't have it perfected. I still get some pretty harsh nips on my toes when I walk around barefoot. They think it is great fun!

And most of my puppies play the kill game with their toys. Pouncing, biting and shaking them is so much fun for them. I've had small birds in my home (canaries and finches) and none of my dogs have ever bothered with any birds or small creatures. Playing with cotton, fuzz & nylon doesn't translate over the same to warm, living creatures.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Welcome Addrian and Darley!!! Yes Darley sounds like a normal Havanese who just needs to learn not use her mouth. One of my boys never mouthed (and he is the one who bit me later in life--totally my fault) And the other boy was the mouthiest puppy and was always nipping at us with puppy teeth. He never mouths or bites us any more. A great thing to teach them to lick not bite is to rub butter on your hands and teach them "kiss" then when ever they bite you can NO BITES "kiss"

I have also found that a lot of trainers (vets too) are biased against small dogs--- and all little dogs to them are yappy, bitey, terriers. I would get a 2nd opinion and interview the person about their clients. I interviewed one trainer who said "oh yeah, I love working with yappy little dogs" and that said it all to me. Havanese are not yappy, high strung little dogs. Darley is still very much a puppy and has to learn she can't play with her humans like she played with her sibblings, that's all. 

Now more importantly, if you've read these threads, you know The Forum Members require PICTURES OF DARLEY!!!!


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Addrian, hard mouth is a term I have heard in horses as to their use with a bit. In dogs I assume as others did that she means biting hard. I agree if larger breeds acted like some of our small breeds do they would be considered dangerous. I did not hear anything that my Smarty has not done and she is 16 months. She loves the babies, but will act like she is going to kill new dogs at class, until she gets to them, then it is all play. We are working on this, holding her down until she relaxes, letting the new dog smell her. When she gets up all is fine. She is getting much better with this behavior. My trainer thinks it is an alpha bitch thing.

My advice would be to forget this trainer……she should be offering help not upsetting you.


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## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

Welcome Addrian. I am certainly not an expert, but I think all of the things you mentioned sound like normal behavior. My Brady is a rough player. I have to admit that he chases the cats and pounces them. He never hurts them, he just wants to play. He will tug on their necks and ears. He chases squirells, but they are always too quick for him. He is not a huge cuddlier, except at night when he snuggles with my husband in bed. His best friends are larger dogs and he loves to play rough with them. He is fantastic with children. We do not have children, but he is the neighborhood favorite and all the kids visit him often. For as rough as he can be, he is very gentile with kids. He shakes his stuffed toys like he is killing them. He is two years old and he has some flaws, but in my eyes he is perfect. I would talk to another trainer and try not to let what this one said scare you too much.


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## Alexa (Jun 17, 2007)

Welcome to the forum!! My Marley was a big biter when he was little...to the point that he didn't want to play anything that didn't involve biting and tugging etc. He still is a very oral dog (he just turned 1) and loves his chewies etc. and likes to use his mouth in play (gentle, never bites down, but that can still scare people if they don't know that...). Shaking the heck out of the toy or pillow or whatever of choice cracks me up and he does it all the time...

I really would go work with another trainer, preferably someone with Havanese experience. A lot of people are just big dog people and aren't used to the little guys. My trainer (who I loved, but generally works with Golden Retrievers etc.) was quite surprised that Marley wasn't all potty trained at 4 months...Hello....?

So just relax and enjoy your baby...if there's a behavior that feels wrong to you and you are bothered by it, I'd be a whole more concerned than when some third party tells you something's wrong....


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

I do have a funny story regarding what Kimberly said about stuffed toy shaking not relating to the real thing. The other night our girls were outside barking and making some really odd yips and yaps. They are NOT normally barky dogs so we knew something was up, probably a cat on the fence or something. When DH got up to look, there, on our patio was a fat little toad. The girls were standing near it barking and yipping. When it hopped, they backed up quick! Sedona came in the house. They had NO idea how to deal with a real, live toad on their patio and yes, these are the same dogs that will grab and shake their stuffy toys to death. DH gently moved the toad off the patio to an area where the dogs couldn't get to it and it had meandered on by morning.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

great story Susan.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Oh Susan, I bet that was quite entertaining to watch!


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## EstrellaVila (Nov 30, 2007)

I think your puppy is just being a normal silly pup! Tito doesn't bite hard, but when we first got him he was still learning and he bit my mom when she was trying to give him a treat since he was so excited. He never did it again. You just have to make the high pitch ouch and ignore him for a while like you have been doing. Your trainer doesn't seem to really understand. We took Tito to a puppy preschool with about 10 other small pups and they all socialized them and worked on this stuff. I recommend doing group classes with a really good teacher.


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## isshinryu_mom (Mar 23, 2008)

Welcome to the forum, Addriane!

Thank you for posting your concerns about your pup. I've not been online in a couple of days (no power due to storms in Michigan... I'm logged in at a McDonalds right now... LOL!) My puppy, Roxie, who is 20 weeks, broke her leg a at 15 weeks and has been confined to an expen mostly for the past month. She was much like you describe BEFORE she was injured and confined and is now even worse. I was in tears yesterday over this... worrying that as a first time dog mom I just don't have enough experience to help her, worrying that she is not going to be able to fit into our family as I hoped... feeling so sad for myself and her that the work we'd done before she broker her leg has all gone down the drain! And after some comments from friends I have been feeling very disheartened over the situation. Now that I have read your post and the comments I am thinking maybe she isn't a hopeless case. 

Anyway, my point is just to thank you and those who commented. I feel a bit more hopeful now and will watch to see your progress Darley.... and share mine with Roxie. They will probably both grow into wonderful little havs!!


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Sounds like everyone's given you great advice. Just want to add that my silly Pablo (almost 9 mo. old) LOVES to play rough too, but never rough with children. One of his favorites is to run real fast in a huge circle when I let him off leash in a certain area and here comes: 
that little bugger runs so fast around me that if I don't move fast enough, he'll approach me from behind and 'pinch' me in my right buttock and keep running before I can scold him. It's always the same spot, LOL. I guess he loves to hear me scream/yell, I secretly think it's hilarious but I'm always firm and correct that kind of behavior. He is a very oral little guy, especially with me, but we always try to discourage it and he knows exactly that it's a :nono: and will lick/kiss right after and start all over again, LOL.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Horse pucky! I think the "trainer" needs (a) training and (b) a course in social intercourse. Yikes! Bailey who is just over three months old now has been a bit of a biter. When he gets hold of an object that I want to take away, he bites down with all his might and makes me think of a bit bull. He also still (though less often) decides I'm like Milo and it's okay to bite my hair to get my attention. Would I be afraid of him with children -- heck no. He's a lover. He's just a puppy who has to learn all his limits. In most respects he's an absolute joy and I love him to pieces.

Enjoy your baby and chalk the "trainer's" comments up to inexperience.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

I think all pups at that age bite. Taht is how they play with their littermates. You just have to teach your pup that biting is not acceptable.

As a pup, Kodi was a nipper. He is 2-1/2 yrs old and never bites. However, I have seen him snap at other dogs and people when he is frightened. But he is getting much better, he's just a little unsure.

Shelby loves to bite when we play, but not to bite. I think she is trying to tell me she is the boss. She will grab my hand or a finger and try to pull me to where she wants me to be. She gets a quick "no bite" and she stops. It is something I constantly work on with her.


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Addrian,

You've got a lot of great advice already, all I can say is you need a new trainer.  Everything you described just sounds like a normal Havpuppy behavior. Bugsy wasn't very oral, but to this day he will grab a toy and shake it like mad. He is not much of a cuddler, is really independent and loves to play rough with large dogs. He and my large standard male are best bods, thick as thieves and rough house like crazy. Yet he is gentle with kids. Just keep working with him and be consistent and enjoy your puppy.


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## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

Adrian, welcome to the Forum. Your puppy sounds normal to me. Egads, at just 13 wks I cannot imagine how that trainer could make such a judgement. I would def. find a different trainer. This one sounds incompetent. And, of course, always be working on encouraging bite inhibition at this age. It's really important to do that from day 1. ( We always said a firm , stern "no bite", and quickly & firmly grabbed his muzzle, and Biscuit learned fast that he may never bite us, even in play. ) Then there are no problems down the road. Best of luck!


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

ound: Susan! I bet that toad smelled really weird to them!!


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Adrian, I just wanted to add my welcome and agree with everyone that you need a new trainer. You've gotten great advice. A high pitched "ouch" and breaking off eye contact and play will help. You can also substitute an acceptable chew toy instead.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Find another trainer.

Shaking a toy is completely normal. There is no cuddle in most puppies while they are playful.

It's quite possible that she needs some training but I don't like the tone of the one you are using. "Hard mouth" is a term used by backroad horse trainers. It refers to a horse who has had it's mouth jerked on too much by coarse hands but even horses said to have a hard mouth come around quickly to an experienced horse person with "quiet hands" while yeehaw "trainers" will complain that the horse has a "hard mouth".

To say that a puppy has a hard mouth is completely ridiculous.

You need to set the limits if there is too much biting.


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## JeanMarie (Mar 2, 2008)

Riley is almost 13 weeks and I sometimes feel like I am living with a gator! We are working on the "no bite"...and rewarding the "kisses" (licks). He shakes the heck out of all his toys and really likes to "kill" em. He's been socialized a LOT. I take him everywhere and encourage children to pet him and give him treats. He has never bitten or snapped at one...through I am sure he'd nip if they tried to play rough with him

Bottom line: You've heard good advice here. He sounds perfectly normal for a puppy!

(Oh and....Riley seldom cuddles unless he is totally worn out! )


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## kelrobin (Jan 21, 2008)

> When DH got up to look, there, on our patio was a fat little toad. The girls were standing near it barking and yipping. When it hopped, they backed up quick! Sedona came in the house. They had NO idea how to deal with a real, live toad on their patio and yes, these are the same dogs that will grab and shake their stuffy toys to death. DH gently moved the toad off the patio to an area where the dogs couldn't get to it and it had meandered on by morning.


Just as an aside, I do know that frogs and toads can be extremely lethal to dogs . . . I doubt a Hav would eat one, but I do have a friend whose lab ate several and had to have her stomach pumped. Jackson does have "Leggs" from the Bow Wow Beanie Babies which is one of his favorite toys . . . hilarious to see him running around with that green frog hanging out of his mouth. And he does shake it violently . . . it squeaks and has crunchy sounding legs


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Just as an aside, I do know that frogs and toads can be extremely lethal to dogs . . . I doubt a Hav would eat one, but I do have a friend whose lab ate several and had to have her stomach pumped.


Wow, I didn't know that.

And they really do taste like chicken! :biggrin1:


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## kelrobin (Jan 21, 2008)

Maybe the farm raised ones are OK, but the wild ones are bad.

Frogs, chocolate, grapes, xylitol - just think what the Havs are missing out on (of course they love poop, so go figure ound


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

> And they really do taste like chicken!


 ound: I'll just take your word for it.

I'm very glad the girls didn't show any inclination to kill it, eat it or hurt it. I think they were more fascinated by it and a little afraid of it.


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## baca008 (May 16, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Maybe the farm raised ones are OK, but the wild ones are bad.
> 
> Frogs, chocolate, grapes, xylitol - just think what the Havs are missing out on (of course they love poop, so go figure ound


Avery just loves to eat poop but rabbit poop. She probably thinks they are grass treats. Always goes for them. Avery is about 14 weeks and she's biting like crazy. She would nip and then run around like crazy until I catch her. Its just normal got to keep working on it, they'll get the point. Avery plays super rough with a stuffed dog all the time. I even asked the trainer if this was normal and she said yes probably just things its her litter mate.


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## RikiDaisyDixie (Apr 15, 2008)

*Throwing toys*

When Riki was a puppy, he had this big stuffed Red Clifford dog. He would jump on it and bite its ears and growl and try to shake. Just like he did with his brothers and sisters as a baby pup. I was so worried that he would turn into a terror! He still has his puppy toys because while he growled at them and mouthed them he has never ripped one up. He just shakes and tosses them which I find pretty hilarious.

When he was a puppy he hung around with lots of older havanese, and they "told" him when he jumped on them and tried this behavior. They wouldn't tolerate it. I also think he was with his mother until he was twelve weeks and she taught him pretty well too.

When he was a pup at home he did once or twice pretend bite and I yelped like his mother would have and he got that it wasn't okay. Sometimes when Riki and Daisy play fight, one of them yelps and they stop because that is the sound of being hurt or not okay.

Riki has these long toys that he shakes and tosses across the room. I need to get a video. If you havanese is doing this, that is what they do!

Now the toilet paper thing is another matter. That he rips to shreds. He has never chewed a shoe or anything. Daisy on the other hand, has chewed my very expensive mouth guard up...but that is probably because it smelled like fleshy meat or something.

I have had two types of trainers...one was very aggressive and from the old school, and two best used clicker training and knew havanese and gentle guidance. These dogs are too sensitive for the old school type...so are most dogs!


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

I'm sorry that trainer made you feel bad about your pup. He sounds perfectly normal to me! My older boy Rufus, who is a year old, is the most sweet, gentle, mellow guy you could meet, but as a pup he was a little land shark! He loved to nip at my pajama legs and hang from the hem of my bathrobe! He was very bitey as a pup, but you work with them and they mellow a bit as they grow..it will all work out! Shamouti is only 12 weeks old and he is not super cuddly with me yet, but is starting to solicit play from me and is beginning to hang out with me and not just his older brother all the time. eace: When he takes a treat from my fingers he is still biting at my fingertips in his excitement to get to the treat. I just hold the treat back in my fingers and tell him "gentle". When he licks rather than bites I release the treat. He's a work in progress. :biggrin1: 

Maybe this trainer only relates to large dogs. If so you may be better off with a different trainer!


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## MaddiesMom (Apr 1, 2007)

Oh I agree with Christy. Darley sounds like a perfectly normal pup. Puppies bite, darn it! The teething, mouthing stage is awful. We've had dogs of various breeds through the years, and all the puppies went through that stage. I had bloody ankles from our German Shepherd puppy biting. You do have to gently correct it, but they outgrow it. As far as pouncing on toys, that's totally normal. Maddie takes a running leap to pounce on her toys. I love that! I'm sorry that trainer made you feel bad. I'd definitely look elsewhere.


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## boo2352 (Dec 18, 2006)

When MacGyver was a puppy, his nips were "harder" than our Goldens' puppy bites, but they were normal for him, I think. He learned not to bite, just as the Goldens did, and it isn't a problem. I think a new trainer is definitely in order.


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## CaseysMom (Jun 10, 2008)

I have two retreivers (a yellow lab, and a Chesapeake Bay retreiver). They are pet dogs and not hunters. I am familiar with reference to 'hard/soft mouthed'. When dogs are used for hunting, of course this is a paramount consideration. In other words, if you paid alot of money for a retreiving dog, then yes, you would have cause for concern and want to contact the breeder. 

My Havanese pup, Casey, has regular play dates with another hav and loves to chase and nip. She also loves to nip at us, but we have been listening to all the advice about letting out a high pitched yelp when she bites too hard and she immediatly stops, looks us in the eye, tilts her head, and appears to 'get it'. She is getting much better and is wonderful with my 3 year old neice and kids in general.

Sounds like your pup is an absolute delight!

I vote for a new trainer!


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