# Anyone have a smaller toy breed dog than a Havanese



## destiny (Nov 26, 2010)

Hello All,

I have an eight year old, sixteen pound havanese. Love the breed but I am actually considering getting a smaller toy as my next dog. We take Desi, our havanese everywhere with us and he gets heavy in his carrier in airports and carrying him home when he gets tired on walks. We have a six pound cat and I love that size. We hope to have Desi for many more years, he is only eight and very healthy. I love his outgoing, affectionate nature and his willingness to please. He does bark when the doorbell rings but does not bark at people when they come in our house and is not at all reactive or barky to people, dogs, anything when we are out and about. He is also quiet on airplanes and in hotel rooms, he is a very well behaved little boy. He is a therapy dog and finished his excellent rally title. He is not much of a walking companion as he prefers lazy days and has his whole life.

I am considering maybe a toy poodle or maltese but open to any friendly, affectionate small dog around six pounds. I do worry switching breeds after falling for the wonderful havanese but I have never had the same breed of dog twice in my life. Our youngest child is going off to college next year and we will probably be traveling more so that is the other reason I am thinking smaller after Desi. If anyone has any firsthand experience with a small toy please let me know your experience compared to the havanese, the pros and cons. I am spoiled with the no shedding but I do have a cat so low shedding does not bother me.

Thank you, I look forward to hearing from you.


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## Scarlett's mom (Feb 14, 2017)

Well I don't know about other toy breeds other than my former neighbor had 2 cute Maltese that never stopped barking inside or out especially when she left the house! That changed my mind about them 
My two Havs weigh 6.8 pounds (at 16 months) and 8.7 pounds at 8 months. Pretty much everything I've ever read about Havs makes them the perfect toy breed


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

My friend has both a Havanese and a Maltese. Like any breed, some Maltese are better than others. They are silky soft and very sweet, in my friend's case at any rate. I would not hesitate to have a Maltese.


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## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

I inherited my brother's 11 year old chihuahua Pomeranian mix [rescue not designer]. She and Winston basically grew up together as my brother travels often with his job and we always babysat. They are the same age.

Anyway, she sheds and barks and never wants you to stop petting her. But she's 12 pounds vs Winston's 16 which makes a bit of difference. And she loves to play fetch. I think if we had her from the beginning, we could have worked on the barking as she barks much less since living with us full time. She's adorable and very popular with kids who visit. And she never has matted hair. :O)

My neighbor across the street has a havanese [they fell in love with Winston] and a maltese. Their havanese is closer to 12-13 lbs. The maltese while tiny, barks constantly.

There are some havanese that fall on the smaller side of the scale [10-12 lbs] and females tend to be smaller than males. You could discuss with reputable breeders and they might have an upcoming litter that might fit your criteria. But please never support breeders who advertise 'tiny' or 'teacup' havanese.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

You could look for a smaller Hav. I agree with Trish - even 5 pounds makes a huge difference, and there are a lot of Havs in the 9-12 pound range without going into teacups etc. Perry was 9 pounds at 8 months and now is between 11 and 12 pounds, probably closer to 12 (without being fat). If you go for an older puppy/ rescue you might have a better idea of what size they will eventually be as an adult than you would a 8-12 week old puppy.

Size was important to me - 15 pounds was my absolute max (for those flights where they're being a stickler for carry on weight). I admit, Perry does get a little heavy when I carry him around - but he doesn't get carried very often. Plus, in my opinion, the 10-12 pound range is perfect -- big enough that they (probably) won't break if you trip over them, but small enough to scoop them up one handed when needed.


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

TnTWalter said:


> But please never support breeders who advertise 'tiny' or 'teacup' havanese.


I totally agree. I fell in love with a friend's teacup Schnauzer. Same personality like the Havanese. But when I read about the health issues that these sweet little guys have to suffer due to being bred to be that small, including collapsing trachea, and respiratory issues, I couldn't add to the problem by getting one.


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## LeahJo57 (Aug 8, 2018)

Destiny, 
I'm sorry I can't answer your question, but I do have a couple of my own. When you flew with your dog, was it domestic or transatlantic? Also, do you know how tall he is? I really really want to get a puppy in the Havanese family, but she must be able to fly with me transatlantic (in-cabin), so I was just curious when I read your post. If I think a Havanese type dog is too big, I might think about yorkie. They are smaller, and might be good for your next dog too!


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

I have only owned Havanese as far as toy breeds go, but 16 lbs is VERY large for one. My oversized Havanese weighs about 14 lbs, kept fit and trim because he is older. Nino is underweight at 7.5, and Brisket will likely be around 9 or 10, which is the spot most Havanese fall as far as weight is concerned.

Temperament wise, a Maltese or well trained Pomeranian will be your best bet for a similar dog to Havanese. Unfortunately, I have found most smaller toy breeds to not match Havanese in their easy going, happy go lucky ways.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

agree with Sophie's sentiment if not her weight range. So much of the weight of a Havanese has to do with their bone and substance, rather than their strict height. Kodi is 17 lbs and within standard, and has absolutely no excess fat on him.
Pixel is a "bird bone" Havanese, and at 10.5" (so in the "preferred" size range) is 10 lbs dripping wet. Panda is even shorter, and JUST over 10" (again, the"preferred" size range) and weighs 13 lbs, again, in fit, trim, working condition. A photo of my 3 for relative sizes below). Pixel is like nothing to carry around. Panda has more substance, but she is my preferred "type", and I like her weight. She's pretty easy to tuck under my arm, and would easily travel in a plane carrier, even for long distances. Kodi is, IMO, too big for a plane-sized carrier, and I would not fly with him.

Nino, from what I've seen of him is on the smaller end of the "preferred" range, and ALSO light boned. And I know Sophie keeps him fit. Many people have heavy Havanese because they are really overweight Havanese.

A healthy 8 year old Havanese who needs to be carried home on walks is either unfit, and needs a better exercise program, or he has his owners very well trained. All of mine happily hike for 5 miles, and are still trotting briskly at the end. Yes, they will all take naps when we get home, but there is no reason that any of them would need to be carried. (and Kodi is 9)

With all the toy breeds, there are larger and smaller individuals, so they all overlap somewhat in terms of size/weight. Unless you are going with "teacups", and other people have explained why that's a terrible idea,, you can get a healthy, in-standard Havanese in the same weight range as anything but a Chihuahua or an Italian Greyhound. (maybe a smaller Papillon) And those breeds are lighter because of their build, not necessarily their height. I also wouldn't want any of those breeds because of the temperament characteristics. None of them are "bad" dogs, but not what I would choose.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

*walking versus carrying*



krandall said:


> ...A healthy 8 year old Havanese who needs to be carried home on walks is either unfit, and needs a better exercise program, or he has his owners very well trained. All of mine happily hike for 5 miles, and are still trotting briskly at the end. Yes, they will all take naps when we get home, but there is no reason that any of them would need to be carried. (and Kodi is 9)


Completely agree. Perry doesn't get what I would consider regular long-term exercise (playing with his ball and running around the yard is our standard) -- but we've gone on trips - DC, Baltimore, etc - where he's still more than able to walk steadily for anywhere from 3 - 6 hours without needing to be carried - and the only time he was carried on those trips was when I was going inside somewhere where he couldn't walk. (Ok and the end of one DC day when we'd been walking for about 6+ hours and it started pouring down rain and he was wet and cold and tired - I did throw him in his sling for the last leg of the trip home). Otherwise he can go longer than I can


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## cishepard (Apr 8, 2018)

I’ve had Chihuahuas in the past (poorly bred rescues), my Miniature Pinscher, and current Havanese-like puppy, Bingo, is a 50% Chihuahua mix. 
The Chi’s adult weights where 3 lbs, 5 lbs and a chubby 8 lbs. Mitzi the MinPin is 10 lbs and Bingo at 10 mo. is 6.4.

All three of the Chihuahuas were wonderful dogs, despite sketchy starts in life. Very complacent, willing and affectionate. They did not bark a lot, but I honestly feel that most ‘yappy’ small breeds are due to the fact that owners let them develop the habit. They do not enforce rules and training as they might with a larger dog and coddle the tiny ones, the same for a lot of behavioural problems asscociated with small breeds. When I had the Chi’s, they were part of my pack of 5 dogs, the others were large breeds and everyone was treated the same and expected to be well behaved. Yes, they can be fragile (the 3 lb. “Pee Wee” was tiny and a bit malformed), but easy to carry and I never had a health problem or injury with any of them. They were long lived on a raw diet and natural rearing while in my care at 18, 20, and 23 yrs. old.

My MinPin is well bred, smart, affectionate to family (not so much to strangers), does not bark (see above - most of them are extremely barky!) and very sturdily built, muscular and athletic. True to the standard, she is a highly distractable terrier, completely unreliable at recalls despite having obedience titles and needs constant monitoring so she doesn’t dash out the door in our rabbit infested neighbourhood. I love her, but would not get another MinPin.

Bingo, well, what can I say? Beautiful, like a Havanese, small, charming, sweet, smart, everything I could want in a pup and I just adore him! I was very lucky to get him, though. I knew about the litter when the pups were only 1 week old and was able to visit and bond with him every week till weaning. His brothers are not as cute with short whispy hair, though they all have the same winning personalities.

So, that is my experience with toy breeds. I hope this gives you some insight to help with your descision.


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## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

Our Rex, Havanese, is 9.5 lbs. He will be 3 yrs old in less than a month. Not really sure I’d want one smaller than him. It would seem fragile.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Check out Poodles. My family has had tea-cups to giant poodles. They have no doggie odor. Don't shed and wonderful personalities. Problem with very tiny dogs they are fragile and can easily be hurt or killed by someone accidently tripping or stepping on them. They're not good to have around young children.

One of my favorite dogs was a miniature Schnauzer, Samantha. She loved to cuddle and be loved. She died at a young age of 5. I don't know why. Maybe cancer. It was sudden. Schnauzer's do have a doggie odor and need bathed at least every other week.

Poodles have the same hair as Havanese, human hair not fur. My Schnauzer was a yappy little dog. Barked at the leaves blowing across the yard. I also had a miniature Poodle who was older and would join in. Very annoying! I don't remember the Poodle barking a lot until I got the Schnauzer.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

LeahJo57 said:


> Destiny,
> I'm sorry I can't answer your question, but I do have a couple of my own. When you flew with your dog, was it domestic or transatlantic? Also, do you know how tall he is? I really really want to get a puppy in the Havanese family, but she must be able to fly with me transatlantic (in-cabin), so I was just curious when I read your post. If I think a Havanese type dog is too big, I might think about yorkie. They are smaller, and might be good for your next dog too!


Be sure and read about Yorkies. They're almost impossible to housebreak. My mother had one and after my experience with Yorkies there's no way I'd ever have one. I'm amazed at how popular they are. They are cute!


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## destiny (Nov 26, 2010)

Thank you everyone for all of your comments. I really appreciate hearing all of your insight. Desi is 9 1/2 inches tall and is sturdy but not overweight. He has gone all over the U.S. with us in the plane cabin and we have never had any trouble because of his size. He fits comfortably in a soft carrier under the seat in front of us.

I would never get a teacup anything, I want a small, healthy dog. I am probably leaning towards a seven or eight pound poodle or a five or six pound maltese. I think poodles get to fragile if they are under seven pounds whereas the standard for a maltese is 4 to 6 pounds. I have met some wonderfully friendly, maltese and I know of several very reputable breeders in PA and Michigan, I am in Ohio. I found a lovely toy poodle breeder, who imports from Russia for health reasons and does all the correct health tests on the parents. She has lovely poodles and like me she does not agree with cutting off dog's body parts for cosmetics so she leaves her precious pups natural. I, also, have a beautiful white standard, undocked poodle so I guess that is why I prefer maltese and poodle, smaller versions of what I have now. My havanese is white and is often confused for a big maltese.

Thank you for your input, it's interesting to read other's views. I do love the havanese but I never get the same dog twice. I guess I worry I will compare and the second one won't add up. I know it's strange most people get a breed they like and stick with it forever. I guess everyone's different.

Well I hope I don't have to worry about this for years to come but sometimes it is fun to think about my future pup.

Thank you,

Destiny


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

*The Novelty Gene*

My daughter says I have this. Please go to a dog show. I took this at last years Peachtree Cluster in the Atlanta area.


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## destiny (Nov 26, 2010)

In response to getting carried on walks, Desi loves lazy days and will only go on a long walk if the temperature is between 65 and 70 degrees. He has been that way since he was a one year old. He goes for check ups every six months and is in perfect health but is just an extremely low energy dog. I thought it was just the breed but I have brought this up to my vet, he has done blood work and for whatever reason he is as calm and steady as a dog can be. 

As far as training his owner, I suppose he has. When he lies down on a walk, it's either drag him or carry him and it's much kinder to carry him.

I have accepted his low energy as who he is and he does make the perfect therapy dog, calm, obedient and so very friendly.

I wish I could figure out how to attach a picture, he is very gorgeous. His coat is white now, his brown faded as he aged. I showed him in conformation when he was a puppy and he had three three point majors by his forth dog show.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

destiny said:


> I do love the havanese but I never get the same dog twice. I guess I worry I will compare and the second one won't add up. I know it's strange most people get a breed they like and stick with it forever. I guess everyone's different.


I understand this completely. I always thought that I would be a Pem corgi person forever. Then when my corgi became disabled and had to be lifted and carried, her weight became one of the deciding factors on getting a different breed. The other factor, and a big one, is that I was afraid I would compare any other corgi to Foxy, who was my heart dog. I don't think any other corgi could live up to her. Willow is so completely different in personality and behaviors that there is no way that I could ever compare her to Foxy!

When I was looking for a small dog, I considered mini schnauzers and mini poodles. I have seen some mixes with yorkies that are just adorable. I think the one I'm thinking of was part yorkie and part maltese. It was so cute, was quite small and had a wonderful disposition.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

destiny said:


> In response to getting carried on walks, Desi loves lazy days and will only go on a long walk if the temperature is between 65 and 70 degrees. He has been that way since he was a one year old. He goes for check ups every six months and is in perfect health but is just an extremely low energy dog. I thought it was just the breed but I have brought this up to my vet, he has done blood work and for whatever reason he is as calm and steady as a dog can be.
> 
> As far as training his owner, I suppose he has. When he lies down on a walk, it's either drag him or carry him and it's much kinder to carry him.
> 
> ...


There's HOPE?! for a calm, lazy Havanese. At 5 months I've been having such thoughts .... Why did I do this to myself!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

destiny said:


> In response to getting carried on walks, Desi loves lazy days and will only go on a long walk if the temperature is between 65 and 70 degrees. He has been that way since he was a one year old. He goes for check ups every six months and is in perfect health but is just an extremely low energy dog. I thought it was just the breed but I have brought this up to my vet, he has done blood work and for whatever reason he is as calm and steady as a dog can be.
> 
> As far as training his owner, I suppose he has. When he lies down on a walk, it's either drag him or carry him and it's much kinder to carry him.
> 
> ...


I can see from your Avatar that he's a cutie! And if it works for both of you, that's all thta matters. i have a trainer friend who has a saying... "Dog training is mind over matter... If you don't mind, it doesn't matter!"


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

krandall said:


> i have a trainer friend who has a saying... "Dog training is mind over matter... If you don't mind, it doesn't matter!"


Which is why my dogs are allowed to jump up as much as they please in casual settings, so long as they respect "Off" immediately in case someone else minds :laugh:


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

[I wish I could figure out how to attach a picture, he is very gorgeous. His coat is white now, his brown faded as he aged]

Your not the only one who has problems with figuring out how to attach a picture. I've seen this comment several times and I don't know either.


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

Mikki said:


> There's HOPE?! for a calm, lazy Havanese. At 5 months I've been having such thoughts .... Why did I do this to myself!


All stages of puppyhood are temporary. With time, your dog will become calmer.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KarMar said:


> Which is why my dogs are allowed to jump up as much as they please in casual settings, so long as they respect "Off" immediately in case someone else minds :laugh:


The interesting thing is that my dogs DON'T jump up on people outside the house. Pixel never will, and Panda and Kodi only will with an invitation and a check-in with me., This has not really been taught, it's just what they do. In the house, though, they do jump up on people's knees to be patted. And I don't mind. If you're in my house, you'd better like my dogs or you can leave.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I really wanted a small lap dog but I was worried about it being too fragile for my kids and was led to Havanese, which ended up being perfect for us, even though he’s on the big side. Now that we have ours, I find myself less interested in other small dog breeds. I think some of that is definitely bias - the other small dogs we run into are rarely as friendly 😉 

I would LOVE a small girl hav as our 2nd dog but I would be afraid to even bring it up with a breeder for fear of being perceived as someone seeking a “teacup” Havanese. 

As a side note, I’m suddenly worried about our puppy’s fitness. He regularly lays down on walks when he gets tired. He loves to be on the ground so I don’t think he does it to be carried. Usually after a quick break he’s squirming to get down. I just assumed it was normal for a small dog. How do you evaluate the fitness of a Havanese?


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

And I forgot the whole point of the reply! Our neighbor’s Maltese puppy is very well behaved and pretty calm, especially for a puppy. My opinions on this are based on limited experience, but what I’m concluding is that some dogs may have tendencies towards stereotypical small dog behavior, but training is what makes the difference. Our neighbors are busy, but they also don’t have kids, and they have a consistent schedule and train for a few minutes every night. I want to be more like them!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I really wanted a small lap dog but I was worried about it being too fragile for my kids and was led to Havanese, which ended up being perfect for us, even though he's on the big side. Now that we have ours, I find myself less interested in other small dog breeds. I think some of that is definitely bias - the other small dogs we run into are rarely as friendly &#128521;
> 
> I would LOVE a small girl hav as our 2nd dog but I would be afraid to even bring it up with a breeder for fear of being perceived as someone seeking a "teacup" Havanese.
> 
> As a side note, I'm suddenly worried about our puppy's fitness. He regularly lays down on walks when he gets tired. He loves to be on the ground so I don't think he does it to be carried. Usually after a quick break he's squirming to get down. I just assumed it was normal for a small dog. How do you evaluate the fitness of a Havanese?


Where does he lay down? Kodi does this for a few moments at a time, but he ALWAYS goes and does it on nice green grass or moss. I am SURE he's just cooling his belly off.

If you are not sure of his fitness level, time how far he will walk before he wants a break. Then slowly, over a period of WEEKS, increase the distance he goes before you let him lay down. And DON'T pick him up and carry him. Just wait with him for a few minutes and then move on. (this assumes he has been checked out by a vet, and there is no physical reason that he can't walk a normal distance) A Havanese should be able to maintain a human walking speed for at least a couple of hours as long as you stop and give him drinks as needed in hot weather. (we always carry water for our dogs) They ARE small dogs, though, and should not be asked to run or jog for any distance with a human.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

krandall said:


> They ARE small dogs, though, and should not be asked to run or jog for any distance with a human.


He seems desperate to run sometimes, so my husband takes him because he's the only one fast enough to keep up. I assume you mean running with actual runners who are exercising for miles themselves, not around the block, right?

I think you're right that he's cooling himself! Thank you. I hadn't thought to offer water then because he seems tired, and he usually asks for it if I'm holding it and he wants it. But I'll offer it anyway next time to see if it helps.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> He seems desperate to run sometimes, so my husband takes him because he's the only one fast enough to keep up. I assume you mean running with actual runners who are exercising for miles themselves, not around the block, right?
> 
> I think you're right that he's cooling himself! Thank you. I hadn't thought to offer water then because he seems tired, and he usually asks for it if I'm holding it and he wants it. But I'll offer it anyway next time to see if it helps.


Certainly, if he WANTS to run, it's OK to run with him. It should be limited, not encouraged, however, if he is under a year old. But just because he WIll run with a person who is running doesn't mean he'd be doing it on his own, so be careful of that!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

*fitness*



krandall said:


> Where does he lay down? Kodi does this for a few moments at a time, but he ALWAYS goes and does it on nice green grass or moss. I am SURE he's just cooling his belly off.
> 
> If you are not sure of his fitness level, time how far he will walk before he wants a break. Then slowly, over a period of WEEKS, increase the distance he goes before you let him lay down. And DON'T pick him up and carry him. Just wait with him for a few minutes and then move on. (this assumes he has been checked out by a vet, and there is no physical reason that he can't walk a normal distance) A Havanese should be able to maintain a human walking speed for at least a couple of hours as long as you stop and give him drinks as needed in hot weather. (we always carry water for our dogs) They ARE small dogs, though, and should not be asked to run or jog for any distance with a human.


Perry with RLH around the house and yard and then will, without any warning, flop down on the bare floors - I am sure to cool off the tummy. As far as fitness - even without "regular" walking exercise (I don't trust the drivers on roads around here and there aren't consistent sidewalks where we can walk), when we do go somewhere where he can walk he can go for hours and hours. We do stop frequently and I carry his collapsible water bowl with me and a bottle of water to give him some every time we stop. I do carry his sling with me whenever we're out on walks - but that's more so that I can go into places with him but also sometimes the ground is really really hot so I will sometimes pick him up.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> As a side note, I'm suddenly worried about our puppy's fitness. He regularly lays down on walks when he gets tired. He loves to be on the ground so I don't think he does it to be carried. Usually after a quick break he's squirming to get down. I just assumed it was normal for a small dog. How do you evaluate the fitness of a Havanese?


Willow will also frequently lay down on walks if it's a warm day. Always on the grass in the shade. She does not like the heat at all.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Does anyone know why my last post does not show the "quote" in a shaded box? I've never had that happen before.

Edit: I figured it out. I accidently deleted one of the brackets ] . I went back and added it and now the quote is displaying correctly.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

This has been an interesting thread. Thanks!


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