# Outgoing yet shy/worried



## Blue_Persuasion (Jan 4, 2012)

I don't know if this is more a puppy issue or an advice one, but I figured I'd try here.

Not ever having been owned by a Hav before, and not really having done much of the puppy thing before either, I'm not sure if this is something that needs addressing or if it'll work itself out on its own.

Bobby is far from shy and is rather gregarious and outgoing. He was very well socialized when we got him at 10 weeks, and early on when we'd go out, we'd take him with us and hand him off to people. We're not total recluses, but we also don't socialize tons.

He is nearly 6 months old, and I'm noticing that when we have him outside, he gets excited and runs over to the neighbors (folks he knows more than those he doesn't) and seems happy to see them -- but the second they go to pet him, he's darting out of range before darting back. If one didn't know better, you'd think it was a game -- except that he really REALLy doesn't want to be petted by most of the people he's been exposed to somewhat regularly. When I try to shorten his leash to keep him from darting away, he's pulling to its fullest extent and really wriggling to not be petted or scooped up.

Is this a Hav thing? Is this just a puppy thing? Has anybody else seen this in a young pup and then seen them grow out of it? I don't want him to go off with just anybody, but at the same time, I don't want him to be weird around people. Any thoughts? Oh, he can be this way around other dogs, too, but I'm less concerned about this right now as other dogs can be unpredictable.


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## nlb (Feb 26, 2012)

Cass does the same thing. I think how people approach her can also add to that. Little kids don't scare her as much, but she usually calms down enough to let people pet her. I also think with more exposure to others, the less shy she becomes.


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

Here's what I think is most likely: Bobby is like any other normal dog - especially being small. If people loom over him, he'll back away.

People not in the know usually use body language that, in DOG language is unbelievably rude! That is staring, rushing up to, face-to-face, looming over, patting on the head, and so forth.

I suggest you have a look at this link:

http://www.coherentdog.org/vek/stressdown.php

and then order the book and DVD on calming signals. This will give you a basic education in what canine calming signals are all about. You should be able to get the pair from Amazon, for instance.

I watched the DVD many, many times. Found it very helpful, and have been using the knowledge ever since. It helps to instruct the people Bobby is meeting; trusting you can do it tactfully!

Sun, 8 Apr 2012 20:05:46 (PDT)


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## Blue_Persuasion (Jan 4, 2012)

Thanks, Carol. I'll check into those. I've just never had this issue before. We had one dog that was a rescue that was about Bobby's age, but she was a goldie mix, so much bigger. And having apparently been previously abused, that was a different situation altogether.

My other dog, a Maltese (which is now the SMALLER dog next to Bob) has never met a stranger and is trusting of people. I hope that rubs off on Bob somewhat. Not to the point where he'd go off with somebody, but still...

We have a couple who live next door and who really care for our dogs. We've never had to board them because they always stay with them. We haven't had to do that yet since Bob has come into our lives, but there are two problems now: One is their VERY unsociable dog. He'll come to me with some coaxing (he used to be very eager to come to me when he was younger), but he's so homebound that he only wants outside long enough to do his business and then bangs at the storm door to get in. The problem is, HE doesn't find Bobby near as cute as everybody else does and growls at him. Since he's about 45 pounds, this has me a tad bit worried. The other problem is that one of the two guys who lives there is "lovingly rough," if that makes sense. He always would rub the dogs aggressively while baby talking them. This would hurt my goldie mix when she got older because we believe she had a bad tooth, and she would yelp. I'd asked him numerous times to be gentle, but he never seemed to "get it." I finally had to ask his partner to talk to him because it was really bothering me. I KNOW he loves our dogs, but he was just too rough. He is very awkward with Bob. He not only uses the worst body language when coming to pet him, he will come at him and try to grab him, which scares him. And he doesn't seem to be satisfied until he catches him. I worry that this is causing some of his issues with other people. Now, how to be tactful and tell him to keep his grubby paws off my baby. /


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

Argh! What this guy is doing is BAD for Bobby! Too scary! I feel really brainless right now, so I don't have any suggestions. The growly-scary 45-pound dog doesn't help, EITHER!

I don't know what to suggest! Maybe some other people here have some good ideas?

Sun, 8 Apr 2012 20:20:13 (PDT)


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## Blue_Persuasion (Jan 4, 2012)

I know on the neighbor! I don't think he and his dog are the cause, but they sure don't help. I just wasn't sure overall how normal this is. I hope it isn't typical and can be broken.


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

Blue_Persuasion said:


> I know on the neighbor! I don't think he and his dog are the cause, but they sure don't help. I just wasn't sure overall how normal this is. I hope it isn't typical and can be broken.


It's normal in the circumstances, but it's bad for the dog to be traumatized! So I hope you can get the partner to explain to the guy who plays rough.You're absolutely right to protest the rough playing.

Some people, maybe especially men, just have NO IDEA what dog-response to rough play is like, nor what it means; they aren't thinking about how a critter different from humans responds.

When dogs are afraid, it's always possible to do damage - and dogs remember that. It can be very difficult for them to get over their fears afterwards. (Sez I. I'm dealing with this with Camellia - it will be years, if ever! - though her fear is of other dogs, as she was bullied by other dogs.)

Mon, 9 Apr 2012 05:11:41 (PDT)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I definitely understand about guys who are too strong/rough without realizing it. I have RA, and there are some men who, when I shake hands with them, it feels like they are CRUSHING my hand!!! You can have a FIRM handshake without hurting people. But I am SURE these guys mean no harm. 

In my case, I've learned to protect myself in church (which is where it is most likely to happen) by wearing splints on my hands. They seem to remind people to be gentle! I think Carol is right. You have a responsibility to intervene for Bobby. You need to find a tactful way to teach this guy an APPROPRIATE way of interacting with a little dog.

PLEASE don't keep Bobby on a short leash to keep him from getting away from people. That will definitely NOT help him learn to trust people more. Part of the problem here may very well be his age... it is typical for 6 month old puppies to go through a fear period. But you can help them through it, or you can turn the dog into a permanently "reactive" dog, depending on how you handle it. 

Instead of forcing Bobby to interact with people, keep a pocket full of treats. When you meet someone you want Bobby to feel comfortable with, give some treats to that person. Then ask the person to stand (or much better, if you can arrange it, sit!) sideways to Bobby and ignore him as they chat with you. Bobby will most likely become interested, and start sniffing the person's legs. At that point, if the person is sitting, have them offer Bobby a treat. If they are standing, you will probably have to ask them to drop the treat by their feet to avoid the "looming" Carol mentioned. Only when Bobby is making it clear that he wants to interact should they reach down, and then it should be to let Bobby sniff their hand, NOT to touch him. When he will allow that, ask them to scratch him gently under the chin or on his chest. They should NOT reach for the top of his head. Only when he is completely comfortable with all of this, should you allow them to pat his sides and back. Few dogs EVER like being patted on the head, though some (especially Goldens and Labs!:biggrin1 are willing to tolerate it. 

I would never, EVER let a non-family member pick up my small dog casually. Little dogs are not cats. They are wiggly, and don't land on their feet if they are dropped or suddenly launch themselves out of someone's arms. This is asking for a serious injury. Even if they tolerate it, this is just too close for comfort for many, if not most dogs. People often feel they have the right to pick up and hold any small puppy. It's up to you to protect him from that.

I think if you allow Bobby to learn to warm up at his own pace, and give him lots of POSITIVE experiences with people, he will come around pretty quickly. But if you try to force him, or allow people to handle him in rough, intimidating ways, (even if that is not intended) you can turn him into a dog that is permanently at best suspicious of, at worst, reactive toward people outside his immediate family.


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## Blue_Persuasion (Jan 4, 2012)

CarolWCamelo said:


> It's normal in the circumstances, but it's bad for the dog to be traumatized! So I hope you can get the partner to explain to the guy who plays rough.You're absolutely right to protest the rough playing.
> 
> Some people, maybe especially men, just have NO IDEA what dog-response to rough play is like, nor what it means; they aren't thinking about how a critter different from humans responds.


I know he loves my babies, but he's always very lumbering and cloppy when he comes in at them. The Maltese knows him and isn't worried. But yes, he is CLUELESS about the message he sends. There are just some certain rules where animals are concerned -- like staring them down, making certain movements, etc. He really doesn't know or get it; and when you tell him, he still doesn't get it. It might take some doggie intervention. Again. :suspicious:


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## Blue_Persuasion (Jan 4, 2012)

Thanks, Karen, all great GREAT advice. I know that Bobby is this way regardless of who it is, so it's not the neighbor -- yet it is the neighbor. In other words, he was already like this before, but our neighbor exacerbates it. We'll have to talk. I don't think he is around Bob a lot, but I'll talk to the hubby and let him know all this. The nice thing is, when the neighbor comes home (especially the neighbor), Bobby runs towards him (as far as he can get on his leash) and wants to say hi. But when the neighbor comes at him, he looks like the Hulk and insists on grabbing for him and CATCHING him. That has to stop. It makes ME uncomfortable to see him do this, so I can only imagine a little baby. Then Bob's interest in seeing him turns to a definite WTH moment and you can see a bit of apprehension in his eyes.

I think your other ideas are great. I have a treat that he LOVES and gets only on rare occasions. But I swear, when he sees you go for that treat, he has jumped nearly to my hips, that's how high he bounds!

I had always felt if he were handed off by my husband or I, he would get the message that it's all okay. The GOOD thing is he is not wriggly or fearful of people in this situation. He doesn't try to get away. Actually, he gets very calm in your arms and settles down quickly. We would call it his coma reaction. But you're right, it doesn't take much for something to happen.

I'll give those ideas a try and see how it goes.


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## tokipoke (Feb 13, 2012)

Louis hates being handled or picked up by people he doesn't know (he is 2 years old). And frankly, I'd be pretty ticked if some stranger just scooped him up. It's very rude. He squirmed and would try to leap out of my husband's arms the first couple of times. (he's A LOT better with my husband now)

I think men think all dogs are burly labs that like to be roughed up. That's probably why Louis doesn't respond well to men. For instance, I took him to the small dog park. I explained to a man whose dog was smelling mine how mine was shy with strangers, he doesn't like hands going over his head, etc. What's the guy do? After letting Louis sniff his hands, he moves it over his head. Louis backs away. He then steps forward to get his head again, then moves his hand down to Louis's back/butt area. Louis turns and scurries away. Every time Louis would come near, that same man would keep trying to pet Louis's back! That's one place you don't pet with a shy dog. It's a very personal space violation to them. Needless to say, he stayed away from the guy. Then I saw how he was interacting with his dog - lots of rough petting and patting on the butt. I do this with Louis, but he trusts me. He will not allow this with just any one. Another time my friend wanted to pet him. He got as far as underneath the chin petting, then he tried going over the head. He kept trying and said "I WANT to pet you cause you look so soft!" and he forced a petting on Louis's back and Louis ran away. He also tried to give Louis a piece of ice. The other big dogs took it, or he just kind of threw it at them. When Louis was gently sniffing just to see what he had, he said "Ya want this?" and just dropped it on his head. Well, he's never gonna be able to pet Louis. This is not how you go about getting to know a dog with a shy personality. Louis responds better to women, although he is jumpy, the women are not as pushy. I think men just have this need to dominate or something. I bring this up because I don't see your neighbor changing his ways in how he handles Bobby. So far the vets Louis has seen are men. They come bounding in with booming voices and exaggerated gestures. I have to tell them, almost in a whisper, Louis's personality and they tone it down and talk softer, and will go slower in handling him. But they are animal professionals who understand the different personalities. I'm not sure about your neighbor though!


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## Blue_Persuasion (Jan 4, 2012)

I'm not sure about my neighbor either, tokipoke. I swear, the first guy you described sounds exactly like my neighbor Keith. His partner Tom, however, is a different story. He works at a boutique dog store and he gets it. Heck, just tonight, I was outside talking with Tom and he would gently put his hand down and Bob would come up and allow Tom to pet him. Keith, on the other hand, curls over with arms outstretched, almost in a monkey-type post, and comes AT him and doesn't stop even when Bob is running away. He forces too much, and I don't like it. I like KEITH, but his way with dogs sucks. Bob is NOT Amber (who we lost) or Casey, who love(d) him to death and tolerated his rough petting. The thing that bothers me about all of this is that they have always been our pet sitters whenever we went anywhere. Between Keith scaring the hell out of him AND their antisocial dog not taking to him AT ALL (growling every time he's FORCED by Keith to come over and "make nice"), we may be in a precarious situation if we ever go anywhere.

As for our vets, there is one where we go who IS louder. I went to him once a few years ago and immediately didn't like him. The one we see in that office is WONDERFUL. He's kind, has a great bedside manner, and is VERY soft-spoken. And he's a cutie pie, which doesn't hurt.


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