# GROWLING...at us!



## Scooter's Family

We have a problem that doesn't happen too often but it's scary. Every once in a while Scooter will get something he shouldn't have, socks, lipstick, shoes, etc, and he'll run away with it. When we try to get it back he crouches down and then runs away when we reach for it. Trying to switch it out for a treat will work sometimes but not always. When we do catch him, he'll RLH when he knows he has something he shouldn't, he growls and tries to bite. Usually we handle it by holding him down on his side with a hand on his shoulder and hip until he calms down and drops whatever he has.

The scary part is that I think he'd bite us! And I'm afraid that he would do this to someone else as well. Does anyone have any words of wisdom??? How do we stop this before he hurts somebody? I hate it that our sweet, loving and fun little puppy turns into Cujo!!! 
:frusty:


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## marb42

Ann,
I wish I had some advice. We have the same problem, too. Marble sometimes gets in a frenzy and won't "give" a toy or something he shouldn't have back. He growls and tries to lightly nip. Hopefully someone else will be able to help
Gina


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## Paige

I would get the treat that he likes best, and get down on the floor and call him over. Let him smell that you have the treat, say drop it and then give him the treat and grab the item. 

Don't chase after him, it's part of his game. When mine have something they shouldn't and run off with it, I yell sit and then walk up to them and get it. 

If he won't come to you in the beginnng to see that you have a treat, break it up in little pieces and throw a piece around him to get his attention. Keep throwing pieces closer to you until he comes to you. Then he should drop what he has for the treat. After a while he should come to when you call him, on his own, thinking that you may have a treat for him. 

Now you are tricking him, instead of him tricking you. :biggrin1:


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## gay

Ann,

Kialee sometimes does the same thing, usually outside at a playdate with Suzy. Suzy hides her bully sticks & when Kialee finds them she RLH. Ginny & I trick her with a small amount of peanut butter on a spoon. I never give Kialee any bully sticks or things like that because she literally devours them - in minutes! 

Wish I could offer advice, but it is scary to think this sweet little furbaby could have a mean streak. I just try to be firm at home, but out in the open yard it's a different story.

Let us know how it goes. Good luck!!!

Gay


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## DanielBMe

Brando growled at me once when I took a bone away from him. This was early on when I first got him. I promptly grabbed him, said NO in a loud and firm voice. then put him on this side for about 10sec and repeated NO again. After that he never did it again. I think with Brando I got him at 18weeks. I believe he developed some bad habits from the breeder due to circumstances at the time.


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## Scooter's Family

DH put him down on his side and said NO very loudly and held him there. Perhaps he just thinks it's a game since the kids will chase him when he gets things he shouldn't have. I'll have to be more strict with everyone so we're all handling it the same way if it does happen.
Thanks for the advice!


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## Tritia

Daisy had one of those rawhide bones, or whatever they are last yr at Christmas. I'm not a fan of certian chewies, so it was a rare treat. Well, every time dh or I walked by her (I didn't give it to her when kids were around) she'd growl at us. I understand she was protecting it, etc. But, that didn't fly with us. I was actually scared of my own dog. And to be honest, I've never looked at her the same way  She almost scares me now. Silly, I know. But she's growled a couple other times since. When trying to get her off my bed once, and when dh picked her up to bring her in the house last wk when she wanted to stay out and bark at the neighbor's dog.

When the treat thing happened, dh told her "No" and picked her up. Gave her the treat, she growled again, same thing. "no", and did the turning over thing. Now, no matter WHAT the treat is..she won't touch it. Not greenies, a bone, NOTHING. Guess she thinks she'll get in trouble


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## LuvCicero

Ann, I'm sorry to hear Scooter is growling at you. I agree with Paige about not turning it into a game. We never play tug -- and have taught the "drop it" word. I'm not bragging...because I Thank God everyday that Cicero has such a great temperment and think it was mostly born in him. I have never even heard him growl. My Pom did get nippy and would growl with everyone...except me....and I never got that to stop.
I would use the treat..or a squeaky toy..to get his attention..then say 'drop it' the minute he does and give the treat. Hopefully he will stop soon.


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## gelbergirl

I always get pissed and loudly say to him "Don't you growl at me Mister!"
Then I pry his jaw apart and take it. He knows I am displeased. And this is a breed that wants to please so they'll learn.
Henry can really growl something fierce. Anyone else would be afraid, but I go into know he will not bite me, and of he does, well . . . . then it would be a shock but I am not afraid if it happens.


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## karlabythec

I'm so sorry...I know how that feels. 
Earlier this year my male german shepherd started growling at us when he was eating. I was so offended! 
He wasn't neutered, so that was the first thing I scheduled. However, I did a lot of research and found out that it was a pack leader issue...he was trying to move up in the ranks. I had to crate him for 2 weeks, and only let him out to go potty...no playing with him, no sweet talk, nothing. I am the boss, and this is how it is. 
When he got neutered he had some complications, so that meant being crated and sedated even longer...once I started allowing him to come out and play, he was so happy and he hasn't growled since (it's been 5 months). It may have been a combination of both (neuter and crating)...but whatever it was, it worked. 
I don't know if pack-leadership is your problem, but my understanding is that in the wild, the pack leader doesn't get growled at unless that position is being challenged. 
Then again, my experience was with a 85 pound male German Shepherd...lol.


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## isshinryu_mom

Roxie "growls" before she barks if she wants something... to be let out, a flossie.... it isn't aggressive growling (I don't think) but more of a precursor to a certain kind of bark. It is sort of like "ooorrrreewwww.. woof" instead of "grrrrrrrrrr". Is this something I should try and stop? It's kind of cute, but I don't want to let her do it if she shouldn't or it will lead to something worse. Opinions?


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## Scooter's Family

He definitely has different noises, he also sort-of growls when he sees the kids get off the bus every day but that's a happy noise! This is not nice and I don't want to be afraid of a 9 pound dog! We're going to work more on "leave it" and "drop it" with treats to see if that helps.
I love the happy noises, to me it's "Mom, look...yeah!!!" It's always something for him to be excited about.


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## Lina

Ann, have you worked with Scooter on taking things away from him? Especially food items? I know that with Kubrick since day one I practiced taking things away from him that he likes. For example, if he had a flossie and he was really into it, I would walk by and just take it from him. If he was a good boy and just stared at me, I would say good boy, pet him, and give it back. If he growled and/or jumped up to take it back (which he only ever did 2 times), I would take it away for good. I did this often and with many things. I also practiced having him Sit and Stay a LOT. This helps when he has something he shouldn't have. His favorite thing to steal - and actually the only thing he eve steals - is dryer sheets. If one falls on the ground you can be sure he will run off with it. I never ever chase him. I just yell out SIT and go take it from him. However, when he was younger and wouldn't sit, I would go get a treat, stand or kneel on the ground and call out his name, showing him the treat in my open hand. He would come running, I would first say Sit, as this is what I wanted to do with him later (have him sit first) and then Give, and he would give me the sheet and I'd give him the treat. This is pretty much exactly what Paige said above and this is what I would suggest you do.

Also, if Scooter (or any other forum dogs) are food-protective, I would nip this in the butt before it gets worse - and it can. With Kubrick I did it as a puppy so it might take much longer for this to be engrained in an adult with habits. Basically once his food bowl was down and he was eating away, I would stick my hand into it. I would do this WHILE he was eating. Sometimes that's all I'd do. Other times I'd take away some kibble and show him I'd done so. Other times I'd drop some extra-special bits like cheese or chicken. I would do this every day then less and less often. Now, I usually do it once every 2 months or so. It's very important to teach your dog that treats and food come from YOU and YOU get to say if/when the dog eats.

I can take ANYTHING and I do mean ANYTHING away from Kubrick and he has never ever growled at me over it. He will also sit on command even with an extra special thing-he-shouldn't-have in his mouth. I have no delusions that this is because he's just naturally a good dog, I know it's because I worked really really hard at this. These are things you must work on every day until it's second nature. Don't wait until your dog has something s/he shouldn't have. Start by practicing with low-value items (toys or whatever your dog doesn't care for too much) and then move onto higher-value items. Do this every single day until your dog KNOWS what to do when you tell him and he knows that he will get a treat and/or loving if he does what you tell him to do.


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## Scooter's Family

Lina,

He's never acted protective over his food, it seems to only be with things he shouldn't have. I guess he's reacting to our reactions. Just like all the dog shows say, it's the owners who misbehave!

Thanks for the great advice. We're going to sit down with the kids and go over all of this to make sure we're all doing the same thing and end this now.


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## mellowbo

DanielBMe said:


> Brando growled at me once when I took a bone away from him. This was early on when I first got him. I promptly grabbed him, said NO in a loud and firm voice. then put him on this side for about 10sec and repeated NO again. After that he never did it again. I think with Brando I got him at 18weeks. I believe he developed some bad habits from the breeder due to circumstances at the time.


This is exactly what we have done and it happened only once. You definitely need to get the whole family on the same page. Tell the kids not to chase Scooter. I think it is a game on Scooters part but a game he definitely doesn't need to play.
Carole


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## bullwinkle

Shadow has growled at me , my son and husband if she is sleeping and one of us lifts her to put her in her kennel sometimes. I worry a little and I hope it isn't becoming a habit. I firmly say no as I want her to know who is the boss..Sure hope she never bites at us..


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## EstrellaVila

I practiced a lot of drop its with Tito and it seemed to work since he wont nip/growl when I am trying to get whatever item out of his mouth. He does like to be chased around so I just ignore him or tell him to sit and that works pretty well. 

Practice a lot with your pup and remove items from them, its a safety thing. Carmen, the rescue, had a lot of of food resource guarding issues, and still does. She wont growl at the people anymore but she sure will growl at Tito if he tries to take a greenie from her. We just keep on practicing with them.


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## Maxmom

Great instructions, Lina!


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## tuggersmom

I'd second the advice that this is a pack leader thing. Have you ever watched any of the Dog Whisperer? He has some great advice about being the pack leader. He advises that it is never just one issue instead it is a mind set that needs to be changed. Here is a great link to some of his ideas.
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/topdogrules.htm

In our house, Tugger plays keep away and tug of war, with the kids all the time. They love to play it and he does growl while he plays. But, he knows that he is playing and it never crosses the line. (I also keep a close eye on things to make sure it doesn't. The kids love playing tug and chase with him so I have allowed them to continue even thought some dog people don't)

Regarding dropping things, When I tell him to drop something he practically upchucks the item to get it out of his mouth, when my older son tells him, he slowly drops it and when my 5 year old tells him he turns around and runs away with the object so there definitely is a pack leader element to the reliquishing possesions.

Hope this helps
deb


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## Sheri

The chain of command is very interesting, and so clear in your illustration! Neat story to make it clear!

Sheri and Tucker


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## Scooter's Family

We're still working on it and it's getting better. We can take food and toys away, he just seems to go crazy with socks and underwear, freaky dog! LOL We're all being more consistent and working with him, trying to make sure we're all using the same terms.


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## LuvCicero

Scooter's Family said:


> We're still working on it and it's getting better. We can take food and toys away, he just seems to go crazy with socks and underwear, freaky dog! LOL We're all being more consistent and working with him, trying to make sure we're all using the same terms.


Ann ~ I think Scooter sounds normal. I will also share my food and toys ~ but don't you dare touch my underwear or socks ~ I'll bite. :biggrin1:


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## Scooter's Family

LOL Dale! You can have my socks, the rest I want to keep for myself though!


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## louise

Ellie will let me take something away from her, usually without any noise. BUT, when I'm trying to groom her, particularly deal with the tearstains on her face, she growls very easily and I'm not sure whether she would bite or not. I usually back off - and I'll accept that maybe I'm hurting her, or it's uncomfortable, but the growling and even sometimes turning toward me as if she might bite, is kind of scary.

I'm not sure how to handle it because I think she might also be telling me that I'm hurting her. On the other hand, if I accidentally step on her because she's following around so close, she will yelp to say she's been hurt, she certainly will not growl.

Thoughts?

Louise


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## earthnut

louise said:


> Ellie will let me take something away from her, usually without any noise. BUT, when I'm trying to groom her, particularly deal with the tearstains on her face, she growls very easily and I'm not sure whether she would bite or not. I usually back off - and I'll accept that maybe I'm hurting her, or it's uncomfortable, but the growling and even sometimes turning toward me as if she might bite, is kind of scary.
> 
> I'm not sure how to handle it because I think she might also be telling me that I'm hurting her. On the other hand, if I accidentally step on her because she's following around so close, she will yelp to say she's been hurt, she certainly will not growl.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Louise


The growling is a dominance issue. It is _not _because she's in pain. If she was in pain, she'd yelp. Backing off is exactly the wrong thing to do. By growling she's saying "Back off, buster, you're in my territory" and by backing down, you're saying "Ok, you're the boss". Backing off reinforces the growling because you're doing what she wants, "rewarding" the behavior.

I'd respond to the growling by barking back at her a low "Bad!" I would also pin her down by the neck if she turned towards me as if to bite. Every time I was able to groom the face without incident, I'd give her lots of praise and a treat.


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## Thumper

louise said:


> On the other hand, if I accidentally step on her because she's following around so close, she will yelp to say she's been hurt, she certainly will not growl.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Louise


I agree with the post above on dominance.

Gucci will almost act happy if I accidentally step on her or bump into her, she'll run in circles wagging her tail and licking me (acting excited, but in a happy way) its the weirdest thing, She does this to the kids too and I'm sure she doesn't like being bumped into or stepped on, or whatever. I'm glad its never been serious.


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## LuvCicero

Louise, Ellie is just letting you know she is calling the shots. But grooming is important especially keeping their eyes clean. Sometimes they are like a 2 year old that doesn't want a bath...even thought it doesn't hurt. If you don't back down and stay firm she will get better and better. Talk to her the whole time in a calm voice...or sing to her...and let her know it has to be done and soon she will start to enjoy the time you spend together. Be gentle like you are washing a new baby and she will grow to love it.


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## Havtahava

louise said:


> Ellie will let me take something away from her, usually without any noise. BUT, when I'm trying to groom her, particularly deal with the tearstains on her face, she growls very easily and I'm not sure whether she would bite or not. I usually back off - and I'll accept that maybe I'm hurting her, or it's uncomfortable, but the growling and even sometimes turning toward me as if she might bite, is kind of scary.
> 
> I'm not sure how to handle it because I think she might also be telling me that I'm hurting her. On the other hand, if I accidentally step on her because she's following around so close, she will yelp to say she's been hurt, she certainly will not growl.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Louise


Louise, is she growling or grumbling? Do you know the difference? (I have several dogs that "talk" and grumble when we do certain things.) Either way, do not back off when she makes noises as you do something she doesn't like. You may need to change your technique, but you shouldn't let her decide when you are done. Reward her for cooperation, but don't let her discontent tell you what to do.

I don't agree with the whole "pack" theory, but you do need to have mutual respect between the two of you. She is an animal and has some basic instincts that you need to learn how to handle.

If you are not sure of yourself, please take her to an experienced dog person (breeder, trainer, etc.) and let them show you how to handle her. You don't want a puppy to get away with anything that you wouldn't want a big dog doing.

It is easy to correct in the beginning. It gets harder the longer you let it progress.


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## louise

I have just enrolled us in a dog/person  obedience class but we've just had one lesson. She's 5.5 months old.

How do I determine the difference between growling and grumbling? 

Overall, she's an extremely friendly dog. But recently she has begun to show a stubbornness which is sometimes not ok. For example, this afternoon I took her for a short walk because it was very cold out. When we came home to the bldg entrance, she did a sit down strike a couple of times to tell me she didn't want to go home. I waited, talked gently, and we got in the house. (she is trained to potty inside on paper or outside). So, when we got into the house, the first thing she did (out of my vision), was to poop where she knows she shouldn't! I am very sure it was not an "accident". Might this be in response to being "forced" to come home when she wanted to stay out? 

Any thoughts and recommendations about how to handle it, would be greatly appreciated.

Louise


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## Havtahava

Dogs don't poop for revenge or to get even with you. They don't have that capacity. I don't know for sure, but that might have been the reason she wasn't ready to go inside - she still had to eliminate.

However, no matter what the reason is, when you are ready to go inside and she isn't, I'd just reach down and scoop her up and take her inside. Don't make a battle of it or turn it into a big deal. Just make it matter-of-fact that it is time to go in. Reward the good behavior and ignore the bad.

If you can duplicate the sound with your trainer (the growling/grumbling), s/he should be able to tell you and then teach you what to do.

If you like to read, I highly recommend you get a copy of [ame="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1888047054?ie=UTF8&tag=thereciperack&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1888047054"]_Culture Clash _by Jean Donaldson[/ame]. Excellent insight into how dogs work.


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## iluvhavs

I couldn't agree more, Kimberly. Dogs don't hold grudges. Whenever Lucy balks at coming inside it's because she just remembered she still has to go potty.

I've made the mistake of ignoring the action and found myself cleaning up poop.


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## snfager

I used to be fearful of Daisy biting when she would growl viciously and turn toward my hand. However, we have found that if she does get a person part in her mouth, she won't bite down and settles down very quickly, it's kind of a "Opps" moment.

I don't mean to indicate that we tolerate agressive behavior. We do let her know her place and for the most part she does really well. There are just a few things that really get her back up, like a child with a quick temper who has to be reminded occasionally what behaviors are not socially acceptable.


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## iluvhavs

Rico does growl and snap at the air when I pull hairs out of his ears, but it's more of an instinctual behavior. He never touches me. I think I once batted him when he did it, because it scared me and I knew I wasn't going to tolerate it.


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## Scooter's Family

We're definitely making progress! The past two nights Scooter has come upstairs with us and nudged his crate open, gone in, turned around and sit down. This is a new thing!!! He will drag everything out of his crate but won't ever go in except to pull out a toy or a blanket. When he went in on his own he got lots of praise and rubs! Then we went to bed and didn't hear a peep out of him until morning. :whoo:


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## LuvCicero

:cheer2: Yeaaaa for Scooter!!!!
Isn't it nice when they start learning us and get into a routine? We have a certain container that has a snap lid on it where we keep bacon strips cut into 1 inch pieces and it is only used when we want Cicero to go into his crate. The first three nights at bedtime he followed DH to the kitchen and back to the crate where DH tossed in the treat. The next night the minute the top popped he ran to the crate and hopped in waiting on DH.  Now anytime he hears that sound he runs and gets into the crate -- which makes it so easy when we are leaving home during the day. We never use that container unless we want him to go to his crate. These dogs are so smart.


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## Scooter's Family

That's a great idea, I may try something like that for when we leave. He doesn't whine anymore though since he's learned we do come back. Any excuse for more treats though!


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## Esperanita

Cuba plays keep away with things he shouldn't all the time. I usually get the item back with a treat, but that is getting old. I will try some of what Lina suggested to see if I can get him to drop it on command. The latest is he will drop it, but then pick it up again and run when he sees me reaching for it.

Any suggestions on how to get him to stop taking things in the first place?


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## kcpuppyquest

*growling puppy*

We have also had this problem...and its not improving! Whenever he is picked up by a child or a new adult he will growl. Sometimes my kids will just be gently holding him while sitting on the floor, and he will growl. We have a trainer working with us already (puppy is only 91/2 weeks!), but some of the "dominance/lie the dog on its side" actions he suggested are hard to ask a child to do, and the puppy really has a fit when you try to lie him in that position. I would take any help you all can offer!!!!


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## Scooter's Family

Scooter is still doing it too. I was told that it's definitely a dominance issue and everyone in the house has to be above the puppy in the pack. Have everyone care for him, give his food and treats so he knows he has to count on all of you for food. There's also a hold on their neck where you try to make it feel like the teeth of a dominant dog. Just press your fingers into the side of the neck, not hard but enough that he can feel it, apparently this is what the Mommy dog will do when a puppy misbehaves. You can do a low growl or a stern NO when doing that. 

I hope it improves, we're still working on it here too.


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## kcpuppyquest

*still growling*

Thank you for your advice - we have tried the neck pinch, but that agitates him more sometimes. How does scooter respond when you do that? Do you ever put him in the crate as a "time out" for it? We have started to correct him with a bit of tug to a leash/collar. It stops him, but I can't really follow my kids around with the leash all day! I am hoping we see improvement soon, as I don't think growling is safe to accept in a family with children.


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## Scooter's Family

Sometimes Scooter just gets more riled up too so he goes down on his side and we hold him at the shoulders and hips. At that point he can't get up and he's flat on the floor. Hold until you feel him relax and submit. The strange part is that it doesn't happen with me, only occasionally with DH but mostly with the kids. I guess he doesn't see them as being above him in the pack. My kids are older, 17, 13 and 11 so I've told them and shown them what to do. They don't always do it though, imagine that! LOL I keep telling them they have to do it or he isn't going to learn.

This is our first dog so we're learning too. Just don't give up!!! I hope it gets better.


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## Havtahava

kcpuppyquest said:


> Thank you for your advice - we have tried the neck pinch, but that agitates him more sometimes. How does scooter respond when you do that? Do you ever put him in the crate as a "time out" for it? We have started to correct him with a bit of tug to a leash/collar. It stops him, but I can't really follow my kids around with the leash all day! I am hoping we see improvement soon, as I don't think growling is safe to accept in a family with children.


Yikes! If you pinched my neck, you'd agitate me too. *Please* look for a trainer that will teach you some methods of positive reinforcement.

And growling is their only warning method, especially when children are bothering them. If you take that away, you are risking other problems, like biting. Don't punish the growling, but work on whatever the issue was _caused _the growling.

Please find a good trainer.


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## Havtahava

Scooter's Family said:


> This is our first dog so we're learning too. I hope it gets better.





Havtahava said:


> If you like to read, I highly recommend you get a copy of _Culture Clash _by Jean Donaldson. Excellent insight into how dogs work.


Ann, I just wanted to make sure you saw this. If you can get a copy of this book and read through it, it will put you way ahead of the game. It will be good to get a lot of insight on how to work with Scooter while he is still young and will prevent a lot of other problems from cropping up with time.


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## gelbergirl

kcpuppyquest said:


> Thank you for your advice - we have tried the neck pinch, but that agitates him more sometimes. How does scooter respond when you do that? Do you ever put him in the crate as a "time out" for it? We have started to correct him with a bit of tug to a leash/collar. It stops him, but I can't really follow my kids around with the leash all day! I am hoping we see improvement soon, as I don't think growling is safe to accept in a family with children.


if he is reacting that way to the neck pinch then you are probably doing it wrong. Stay away from it, you do not want risk hurting him and his reacting to it in that way.

I'd spend some time having him leashed to you around the house. Are you familiar with this technique? it is designed to get the dog on your terms with him as the underling.


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## Scooter's Family

Thank you Kimberly, I'll get that book. 

Scooter is a wonderful little guy and I want to be sure we "raise him right".  I wish I'd known about this forum before we got him as I feel I would have been a bit more knowledgeable to start with. We really worry about the growling thing as it's at such odd times. If I ever give bad or wrong info/advice on here I hope someone will correct me!


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## Havtahava

Ann, think about the growling like you would with a child saying they don't like something - like their shoes. You don't want to punish the child for expressing the sentiment, but you do want to find out why they don't like it - maybe the shoe is pinching in a way that is hurting his foot. Maybe it is something that needs to be avoided. If the child is just complaining because they don't like the color, then you have some options - you can teach him to deal with it or get a new pair of shoes. LOL


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## Scooter's Family

He only does it when someone, usually one of my kids, tries to take away something he has that he shouldn't. Socks, underwear, people food, etc. I've told the kids that they just can't leave things where he can get them because at that point it's their fault, not his, and he shouldn't be scolded for it. The other time is when he's sleeping and it's time for bed or if someone moves him. I thought we had to show him that we're in charge and he has to do what we say. It's mostly my oldest son who Scooter does it to, he gives him the lease amount of attention so I'm encouraging him to feed him, play more and take him on walks. I don't know what else to do.

I ordered the book and it will be here Wednesday!


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## Havtahava

I have a dog that always grumbles if she is moved or touched when she is asleep (which happens often if she is sleeping at my feet). She's just saying, "Hey, I'm sleeping", but she'll get up and move to another place if I persist on putting my feet there. I ignore that because it's just grumbling (talking) not a warning growl. Some dogs talk a lot more than others... just like some people. Although with people, I usually want to ask them to stop. LOL


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## Scooter's Family

It starts as a growl but then turns into what we call "Cujo". He goes crazy and tries to bite while growling, it's scary and when he does get you it hurts. He's broken skin a few times on DH. Should we look into having a trainer come to our home?


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## Havtahava

For biting, yes! Get that stopped immediately.

Don't ignore biting. If he ever bites someone else, you could lose your dog completely.


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## Scooter's Family

That's why it scares me so and we're trying to stop it. Our vet has a Behavior Center with a trainer, I'll ask them. I know they do in home visits. He only does it at those two times.


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## kcpuppyquest

Hello!

We have stopped the scruff pinch days ago, but that doesn't leave us with much for my 8 year old to do when he growls at her. Our dog does it when being gently held. No one puts him down when he does it, so that he doesn't think it worked. Saying "no" sternly has not worked. I am always observing when the kids are with him and can see they are not antagonizing him at all. This is my 10 year olds puppy, so she is very sad that the dog growls at her when she is just gently holding him in a well supported position. We did call a second trainer, who advised us to take the dog back...not a happy solution! We will call another today. Do they ever outgrow this? Or must it be trained out?


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## Havtahava

Maybe he doesn't like being held by the kids. Maybe it is uncomfortable for him. If you think it is bad for him to say he doesn't like it, then maybe you _should_ consider returning him.


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## gelbergirl

kcpuppyquest said:


> We have also had this problem...and its not improving! Whenever he is picked up by a child or a new adult he will growl. Sometimes my kids will just be gently holding him while sitting on the floor, and he will growl. We have a trainer working with us already (puppy is only 91/2 weeks!), but some of the "dominance/lie the dog on its side" actions he suggested are hard to ask a child to do, and the puppy really has a fit when you try to lie him in that position. I would take any help you all can offer!!!!


I am wondering if perhaps you can re-claim the pup as yours. (I see in another post you say the pup is for your 10-yr old child). It would would probably help everyone if you or another adult did the training and feeding, manage the dogs energy levels and then have playtime with the kids when it is best.

Others: what do you think? This forum has seen situations like this before yes?


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## gelbergirl

Also, does the pup have a place where he can go to to be alone?
A crate, or a small covered area?


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## Scooter's Family

Kimberly-In the way I posted I hope you don't think we were hurting Scooter when we'd do the neck thing. I was told to just press my fingers in the side of his neck as his mom would with her teeth as a warning, it was done lightly and we never hurt him. Even when we hold him down on his side it's done gently. I'd die if anyone thought we were mistreating him.  I think the trainer for the puppy class at Petsmart told us to do that, I don't know where else we'd have heard it.

I'm going to contact the Behavior Specialist at our vet and ask for advice. DH and I would do anything to make his life with us happy, that's why we're so concerned.


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## louise

Why not put him down? 

He doesn't have a large vocabulary with which to express his desires. If he's "complaining", as in starting to growl, why not put him down and assume that's his way of saying "I don't want to be here now". If this were done immediately, I suspect it would not escalate to biting.

Louise


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## kcpuppyquest

Hello again - first, to scooter's Mom, don't feel badly about the strategy of emulating a mother dog with the neck, or laying him down, We have already consulted two behavior specialist, and they both utilize those methods. It just a bit hard for a 10 year old.

We researched and went with this breed because of its reputation for a good nature with kids, etc. My gentle spirited daughter just wants to hold her dog on occassion - something she has done with multiple Havanese dogs and puppies that we have visited over the past year. Coming from a family that breeds dogs (big ones, though), it just seems very unusual for a 9 week old puppy to be growling within seconds of being picked up (he has done it with multiple people, including the Vet, not just my daughter) Bringing in this puppy was all about giving my very animal oriented daughter a great dog experience based on mutual love. Instead, I think she is pulling back emotionally a bit because the growling worries her. There are many playful moments when it is obvious he loves her and seeks her out, so its just a really tough situation.


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## kcpuppyquest

*safe place*

Oh - forgot to answer - yes, he has taken over a small half bathroom with a crate he really likes. We have him in there for regular naps through out the day and evening. The kids don't get home until after 3:00, so he has a good amount of rest and calm.


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## Havtahava

kcpuppyquest said:


> Hello again - first, to scooter's Mom, don't feel badly about the strategy of emulating a mother dog with the neck, or laying him down, We have already consulted two behavior specialist, and they both utilize those methods. It just a bit hard for a 10 year old.


 Behavior specialists or trainers? I'll say it again - I think you need a trainer that will utilize positive training methods. None of my Havanese dams utilize this method with their young, so I can't agree that this is "emulating a mother dog."

By the way, what is this method accomplishing if he is still growling?


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## Scooter's Family

I just spoke with a trainer and we're going to schedule an appointment for a home visit so she can evaluate Scooter's behavior. After explaining our problems she said we're doing the right thing to get things away from him he shouldn't have by trading up for a treat to get the sock, underwear, paper, etc., away from him. 

She also told me we shouldn't be holding him down as punishment when he growls. I feel so bad that we've been doing this wrong!!! Thank God for the advice I've gotten here so I knew to address this.

The trainer is going to call me back this afternoon to schedule the visit. I can't wait!!!


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## Havtahava

Sounds great, Ann!


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## Jill in Mich

kcpuppyquest said:


> Hello again - first, to scooter's Mom, don't feel badly about the strategy of emulating a mother dog with the neck, or laying him down, We have already consulted two behavior specialist, and they both utilize those methods. It just a bit hard for a 10 year old.
> 
> We researched and went with this breed because of its reputation for a good nature with kids, etc. My gentle spirited daughter just wants to hold her dog on occassion - something she has done with multiple Havanese dogs and puppies that we have visited over the past year. Coming from a family that breeds dogs (big ones, though), it just seems very unusual for a 9 week old puppy to be growling within seconds of being picked up (he has done it with multiple people, including the Vet, not just my daughter) Bringing in this puppy was all about giving my very animal oriented daughter a great dog experience based on mutual love. Instead, I think she is pulling back emotionally a bit because the growling worries her. There are many playful moments when it is obvious he loves her and seeks her out, so its just a really tough situation.


Have you checked to make sure the puppy isn't in pain - perhaps lowgrade so that being held hurts or is uncomfortable?


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## LuvCicero

Ann, I'm sorry you are having problems with the growling still. All dogs are different and I feel that it is "US" that has to change our behavior a bit. Like if Scooter doesn't like to be picked up when he is asleep. My DH knows that if I am asleep on the sofa..to leave me...and go to bed. I will either wake and go later or get a good night's sleep where I'm comfy. Some dogs and people get growly when they are moved during a good sleep. My Pom didn't like to be picked up when she was napping...so I had to change that. I think she thought 'maybe' it was time for a bath or nail clipping and she wasn't ready to be bothered and growled or got nippy. I got a squeaky toy when it was time to more or crate her...and woke her with it and we played for two or three minutes till she was alert...then I could pick her up with no problem and put her in a crate. Hopefully with just a few small changes Scooter will get out of the growling stage. I try to think how can I turn the bad into a fun good thing...and it always works best for me.


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## Scooter's Family

That's sort of what the trainer I talked with said. We'll change the behavior in a positive way. I'm all for it! I just want to work through this so it isn't an issue as I don't ever want anyone to be hurt by him. I'm really looking forward to working with her.


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## kcpuppyquest

*trainers*

Both were trainers - vet recommended. My point was that Scooters Mom shouldn't feel badly that she received "extreme " advice, as it was what I was told as well. My other point was that it didn't work in our situation, so I am trying to find another avenue. Positive reinforcement was very strongly recommended by both trainers as well, and we have been doing that over and over!!!! I am writing in this forum to try to discover anything else that may have worked with other havanese. I am trying every avenue I can think of to make this work.


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## kcpuppyquest

Hi Jill, 

Yes, the vet did a very thorough exam, but no issues were found. He will let you touch and message every part of his body without complaint!


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## Scooter's Family

The trainer is coming Friday morning at 10am. Spent almost an hour on the phone with me asking questions and offering some quick advice, I really like her. I checked out their website and they're associated with many groups; CPDT, ABKA, PSI, and APDT. I'm so looking forward to meeting with her so she can evaluate the situation and help us change things for the better.


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## kcpuppyquest

*growling*

If you meet with success, please keep me posted! If she is affiliated with anyone in Northern California, please let me know. Thank you and I will keep my fingers crossed that all goes well Friday


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## Scooter's Family

I will, I'll be happy to share whatever helpful information she gives.


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## Havtahava

KC, in which part of Northern California are you located?

If you can wait four weeks, the very best training class possible on growling is going to be in San Francisco.
*Growly Dog*
March 14 - 15th 
243 Alabama St.
San Francisco, Ca 
Fees: $180
Registration Deadline: January 24, 2009
For more information call 415-522-3509 or email [email protected]​This is where the Academy of Dog Trainers are certified. It is known as the "Harvard for Dog Trainers," the Academy's main instructors are: 
*Jean Donaldson* (author of _The Culture Clash _and _Dogs are from Neptune_) 
*Janis Bradley* (author of _Dogs Bite But Balloons and Slippers Are More Dangerous_) 
*John Buginas*, CPDT

All of their teachings are science-based and use positive reinforcement methods. If you can't attend that particular clinic, I highly recommend that you contact the SFSPCA for referrals to a trainer that has been certified through their program.

*Edited to add: You probably don't want to attend that seminar afterall. It is geared more towards those who have a professional interest in working with dogs (dogwalkers, trainers, vets, behaviorists). However, the rest of the information applies.*


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## davetgabby

I just read of your issue today for the first time. I like replying to the training issues but for some reason this one eluded me. I am glad you are looking for a POSITIVE ie. positive reinforcement trainer. I have said it before , that growling is a good thing. It is their warning system. It should not be punished in any way. Kimberly is right about this whole issue. It is not about dominance, it will not be resolved with physical or intimidating remedies. You definitely need help from a trainer/behaviourist. Yes read Culture Clash in the mean time and here is what I think is the best article about GROWLING . Work on what is causing the growling , there is always a reason. 
Why A Growl Is Good
February 15th, 2008 by Marie Finnegan 
My new Akita puppy Jack was on his bed chewing a fresh bone. I sat down beside him to work on desensitizing him to having things taken away. There is little of higher value to a dog than a fresh bone. I asked him in a singsong voice “What have you got there?” and put my hand on the bone. His response was to clench the bone and give a low growl. My husband was watching this exchange and was flabbergasted when I calmly got up without saying a word to go get my training bag with treats in it. “Why didn’t you correct him?” was his question to me. “And why are you about to give him some treats?”
*
Dogs are a different species. I say that because it seems many people believe a dog should respond or be taught to respond to things the same way a human would. That is just unfair to the dog. Now some would have given the dog a correction and just taken the bone away. I’m sure I could have gotten the bone too as he was only a pup at the time. But what would that have taught the dog? It certainly would have made bones even higher on the value list, which in turn could have escalated the aggression in the future the next time someone tried to remove that item. They do remember from past experiences.
*
The other thing that would have done would be to teach the dog NOT to growl. You might be wondering why this is important. Remember that different species bit? Well dogs communicate differently than humans as well. Growling is actually a good thing! It is one way your dog is communicating with you. We need to start listening to their communication instead of repressing it. Why? Because to take away that communication can spell disaster in the future.
*
Dogs use a lot of body language in their communication. Not only do they growl but their body will tense up. Growling is almost always preceded with the stiffening of the body and what I call “the hairy eyeball”. Mothers know this look and use it often. (most commonly in a store or in public with their kids) It is a non-verbal warning. A dog would be able to see this subtle sign of warning from another dog. We humans are less perceptive (in general) and usually push it with the dog to the point of them needing to progress to a verbal or more noticeable cue. The stiffening and hairy eyeball is what I call step one in a warning.
*
Step two will be either a low growl or the showing of teeth with a raised lip. Now consider that the dog is TRYING to avoid an altercation. It is using everything in its’ bag of tricks to get the point across. What happens if we correct a dog at this point? Well depending on the dog, we either teach them NOT to give a warning, or we get bit because the dog clearly considers itself a leader or equal to you because a leader or equal is allowed to give corrections to others. Leaders are also in charge of food and high value items. Remember we are talking about the dog’s perception of the incident and it’s role within the pack, not our perception. Even if there are no other dogs in your pack, YOU are part of the dogs pack in its’ mind.
*
OK so say we keep pushing this dog. What happens next usually is step three, or a nip. It might also be an air snap. There is a progression to this in proper dog language. They will only use the amount of warning signals (what we generally label as aggression) needed to end the altercation. If the other dog doesn’t listen and respond to the warnings, you may end up with an all out fight IF the dog doing the warning doesn’t decide to give up the bone. (Let me point out I am talking about dogs that have learned proper dog communication with other dogs.) If that other dog is a person and either ignores the warnings, or wants to prove a point, they will probably get bitten. How serious the bite is depends on where the dog connects or how much force the person tries to use against the dog. (which results in the dog using more force back) A bite to the face usually causes more damage than a bite to the arm.
*
Many dog bites are in the face because when a dog goes to correct another dog they commonly bite on the muzzle of the other dog. (corrections and attacks are two separate events for the purpose of this article) Children are also on face level with an adult dog and so are more commonly bitten than adults. Staring into a dogs face can also cause a bite because it is perceived in dog language as a threat or a challenge. Unfortunately children do this a lot. Humans, lacking muzzles, damage much easier than another dog. We also receive a lot of damage because we tend to pull away during a bite, which causes our more fragile (than dogs) skin to tear. I call step four a bite even though a nip is also a bite, just on a different, some would say less serious, level. By less serious I am speaking in tissue damage terms, not necessarily psychologically less damaging.
*
So what would happen in this same scenario if the dog had been taught not to growl? Someone would get bitten. The dog would have learned NOT to give a warning. Then you end up with a dog you cannot predict which can be very dangerous. Who would be to blame for that bite? The person that took away that dogs method to communicate of course. A dog can only respond like a dog.
*
OK so back to Jack and his bone. I sat down and played “trade the treat for the bone” game with him. I made sure to praise him for giving up the bone AND I always gave it back to him after the trade. This way he learns that he will get the item back and it is worth it to give it up to me in the first place. After a 15 minutes session I stopped and let him chew his bone in peace. Of course I explained the process to my husband as I played with Jack. He looked skeptical at first. After a 20 minute rest I walked over and asked Jack for the bone which I got with no protest. That proved my point for hubby and Jack again got the bone back with praise. Ten minutes after that Missy, our French bulldog, had cleaned her bone of the marrow and decided she wanted Jacks to work on. Missy is the head dog in our house regardless of her smaller size. She slowly walked over and gave him “the look”. Jack looked back at her, huffed a sigh, got up and calmly walked away.
*
Tail wags,
Marie Finnegan
K-9 Solutions Dog Training Inc.

back to The Dog Blog More by Marie Finnegan Add to My Favorites Email this Blog 
Why a Growl is Good


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## Scooter's Family

Thanks Dave. The trainer coming over believes in positive reinforcement too. She's also going to help me encourage Scooter to use his crate more for his quiet time, we started that today. I appreciate you posting the article and I'm going to print it to save for future reference. 

This forum is such a great resource!!! Thanks for the input and advice. :hug:


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## Havtahava

Great article Dave. I totally laughed out loud at “the hairy eyeball.” I think we all understand that one. Ha ha!


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## davetgabby

Havtahava said:


> KC, in which part of Northern California are you located?
> 
> If you can wait four weeks, the very best training class possible on growling is going to be in San Francisco.
> *Growly Dog*
> March 14 - 15th
> 243 Alabama St.
> San Francisco, Ca
> Fees: $180
> Registration Deadline: January 24, 2009
> For more information call 415-522-3509 or email [email protected]​This is where the Academy of Dog Trainers are certified. It is known as the "Harvard for Dog Trainers," the Academy's main instructors are:
> *Jean Donaldson* (author of _The Culture Clash _and _Dogs are from Neptune_)
> *Janis Bradley* (author of _Dogs Bite But Balloons and Slippers Are More Dangerous_)
> *John Buginas*, CPDT
> 
> All of their teachings are science-based and use positive reinforcement methods. If you can't attend that particular clinic, I highly recommend that you contact the SFSPCA for referrals to a trainer that has been certified through their program.
> 
> *Edited to add: You probably don't want to attend that seminar afterall. It is geared more towards those who have a professional interest in working with dogs (dogwalkers, trainers, vets, behaviorists). However, the rest of the information applies.*


Yes Kimberly , Jean will give the name of someone reliable. Don't hesitate to contact Jean at the San Fran SPCA She is good at answering emails . I have had good letters from her before.


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## sweetlotus

If Mochi growls when we are playing tug-of-war, is that ok? She tends to growl when she is playing, but I'm just afraid guests or strangers won't understand. Should I try to find a way to stop this type of growling?


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## Lina

Growling during play (like tug o' war) is okay.


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## kcpuppyquest

*Thank you*

Thank you Dave and Kimberely -

The article was very interesting - and an intriguing view into the "growl". Since our growl is over being held I suppose things may follow two paths - either our puppy will become more comfortable being held (reinforced by positive feedback) OR he won't become more comfortable and we'll have a dog that only I can safely pick up. That would be a sad fact for my daughter.

Yes - I have seen the "hairy eyeball"...and I have also seen our puppy get agitated when my daughter is at his level, looking straight at him. Today, in fact, she was on her knees in front of the couch and the puppy was sitting next to me on the couch. She smiled at the puppy and he jumped forward and nipped her eyebrow. It seemed somewhere between play and warning...he is very mouthy with his baby teeth, and he has done the same thing to the kids pants legs, arms, etc. It scared more than hurt her, but all of this is definitely adding up in her head. I also wonder where the "just sitting there" growl fits in? He will every once and a while do that - to anyone. And then, of course, he will be adorable 5 seconds later. A bit of a rollercoaster!

Thanks, Kimberely, for the SF training info. I will look into it. We are in Napa.


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## marb42

Great article, Dave. Ann, I can't wait to hear what your trainer does. We have a little bit of the growling issue also.
Gina


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## davetgabby

kcpuppyquest said:


> Thank you Dave and Kimberely -
> 
> The article was very interesting - and an intriguing view into the "growl". Since our growl is over being held I suppose things may follow two paths - either our puppy will become more comfortable being held (reinforced by positive feedback) OR he won't become more comfortable and we'll have a dog that only I can safely pick up. That would be a sad fact for my daughter.
> 
> Yes - I have seen the "hairy eyeball"...and I have also seen our puppy get agitated when my daughter is at his level, looking straight at him. Today, in fact, she was on her knees in front of the couch and the puppy was sitting next to me on the couch. She smiled at the puppy and he jumped forward and nipped her eyebrow. It seemed somewhere between play and warning...he is very mouthy with his baby teeth, and he has done the same thing to the kids pants legs, arms, etc. It scared more than hurt her, but all of this is definitely adding up in her head. I also wonder where the "just sitting there" growl fits in? He will every once and a while do that - to anyone. And then, of course, he will be adorable 5 seconds later. A bit of a rollercoaster!
> 
> Thanks, Kimberely, for the SF training info. I will look into it. We are in Napa.


Yes you definitely should get a trainer . Your puppy needs some classical conditioning . And your daughter will be a part of it. For now don't let her near your puppy if he is acting like this. It will only make things worse. With a good trainer ,this should be easily taken care of but it will take time. He is not going to trust her in one or two sessions. You will have to work on it after the trainer tells you what to do. If he does this with strangers as well , you will have to show some of them how to gain your dogs trust too. Classical conditioning is basically learning by association. Keep in mind , alot of dogs are naturally leary of children just because of their quick and excited movements. But treat this seriously. Here is a site by one of our members called Doggone Safe . I strongly suggest taking a look at it. There are alot of good tips of child safety etc. http://www.doggonesafe.com/ways to keep kids safe around dogs.htm this gives you part of the site , to see the rest go to the bottom of page and click home


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## marisoma

kcpuppyquest said:


> Thank you Dave and Kimberely -
> 
> The article was very interesting - and an intriguing view into the "growl". Since our growl is over being held I suppose things may follow two paths - either our puppy will become more comfortable being held (reinforced by positive feedback) OR he won't become more comfortable and we'll have a dog that only I can safely pick up. That would be a sad fact for my daughter.
> 
> Yes - I have seen the "hairy eyeball"...and I have also seen our puppy get agitated when my daughter is at his level, looking straight at him. Today, in fact, she was on her knees in front of the couch and the puppy was sitting next to me on the couch. She smiled at the puppy and he jumped forward and nipped her eyebrow. It seemed somewhere between play and warning...he is very mouthy with his baby teeth, and he has done the same thing to the kids pants legs, arms, etc. It scared more than hurt her, but all of this is definitely adding up in her head. I also wonder where the "just sitting there" growl fits in? He will every once and a while do that - to anyone. And then, of course, he will be adorable 5 seconds later. A bit of a rollercoaster!
> 
> Thanks, Kimberely, for the SF training info. I will look into it. We are in Napa.


KC, I can so relate to your pup growling at your daughter. Giotto from day one has growled at my 12 year old niece. The moment she saw him and picked him up he growled and it has continued. It's lessened and gotten better, but it still happens and if she does not listen to his growl he will snap at her.

I did obedience training with him and I talked to the vet and took him to two trainers (one outside and one came to my home). I've tried numerous things to stop this behavior and the only thing that has helped is Emma not picking him up. If she just plays with him and lets him come to her, it's fine. He is always happy to see her and he lets her walk him and feed him and he obeys her if she tells him to sit or come or any command. He just does not like her to hold him. To be honest, he doesn't seem to like any kids to hold him for very long. He is happy to play and be petted, but not picked up. I've kind of resigned myself to the fact that he is a dog that doesn't want to be carried around, at least by children.

The last trainer we had thought this was a habit I needed to break but it's been a hard one. I am thinking maybe this is just his quirk and we have to accept that about him. At first that was hard for Emma because she did want to hold him and she was feeling like he didn't like her. She now knows he does love her, but he doesn't love being held and he will let her know that.

I can understand that you want your puppy to enjoy being held by your daughter and she wants that too. It's part of the joy of having a puppy. I hope the trainer helps you to acheive that. Giotto has gotten much better over the past few months but it took a lot of consistent effort in getting him there.


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## davetgabby

sweetlotus said:


> If Mochi growls when we are playing tug-of-war, is that ok? She tends to growl when she is playing, but I'm just afraid guests or strangers won't understand. Should I try to find a way to stop this type of growling?


Hi Lotus growling while playing tug is not that much of a concern . The main thing when playing tug is that you have to have strict rules. Use only one designated toy for tug. Dog must stop on command and failing to stop results in a time out . Take frequent breaks throughout . Have a take it command and if he takes it before given the command , an additional time out . Any serious violations eg. teeth on skin , and the game ends. Don' t let it get too excited. Time outs or breaks can be used for obedience or tricks.


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## tuggersmom

i have heard that the dog will look to the adults as the pack leaders and they need to be that for the dog. Then you can show the dog that your children are "off-spring" of the pack leader and must be respected as such. With our pup i always made sure that I was there behind the child when they were asking the dog to drop something so I could reinforce the command. i also made plenty of examples of giving the dog a meaty bone and then having one of the kids take it away and then give it back. But I would say that if the dog is growling then the pack order needs to be reaffirmed by monitoring all your actions. Hope things get better.
Deb


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## tuggersmom

tugger growls during tug of war but loves the game. He sounds horrible though! I hope it is okay too. I try to make him stop the game on command just to keep it in check.


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## Scooter's Family

The trainer came today and she was great! Her method is all about positive reinforcement and ignoring bad behavior. She said we don't want him to stop growling as it's a warning, but can't give in to him either. Basically it's behavior modification, getting him to do what we want. Also gave me advice on how we approach him and worked on "take it" and "give it" commands. She gave me lots of information and ideas, going to start on it all with the kids today as well.

The growling about going to bed has been partly my fault, he has a dog bed in our room and his crate. Of course he'll choose the dog bed so I'm taking it out of the room. She also said to hide treats in there sometimes and to throw toys in to make it a good place to be. Common sense stuff, duh....:brick: I should have known.

She did say Scooter was a smart little guy, wish I could take credit for that, and that we had done very well in training him so far. I'd love for her to see some of the other dogs on here and see how well trained they are!!!

Kimberly and Dave, I can't thank both of you enough for your advice!!! :hug:


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## Havtahava

Ann, I'm so glad you found a good trainer. Her advice is sound.


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## LuvCicero

Ann, it sounds like you have a great trainer. I have had so many 'duh' times, when I think I confuse Cicero. then it hits me..usually in the middle of the night...what "I am" doing wrong. I hope you continue to make progress with that little chocolate fellow.


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## Scooter's Family

I wish she'd work on my kids next!


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## davetgabby

She sounds like a good trainer. Glad you are happy with her . Just remember three things , you initiate everything, ignore demands ,and nothing in life is free. And remember , Positive Reinforcement is the best way to teach. Thanks for sharing Anne and make sure to show the others around you. Hugs and Wags Dave


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## Esperanita

Scooter's Family said:


> I wish she'd work on my kids next!


Ann - Who did you use?


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## Scooter's Family

Jenny Schneider from Camp Canine USA. Her website is www.campcanineusa.com. I really liked her, she's holding a class in late March that I'd like to do with Scooter. She was here for 2 1/2 hours and charged me for an hour and half because she said that's how long she usually takes.


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## kcpuppyquest

we called Jean at the SF SPCA and left a voicemail. All three of the recommended trainers we've tried in Napa have had a similar approach....which is basically a zero tolerance for growling when being held. All apply a form of correction with varying degrees of severity. All also emphasized rewarding good "non-dominant" behavior. We have begun our own "positive" training with treats for licks or general good behavior. Hopefully Jean will have a recommendation for a trainer who can further describe a plan that is truly based on positive reinforcement.


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## davetgabby

kcpuppyquest said:


> we called Jean at the SF SPCA and left a voicemail. All three of the recommended trainers we've tried in Napa have had a similar approach....which is basically a zero tolerance for growling when being held. All apply a form of correction with varying degrees of severity. All also emphasized rewarding good "non-dominant" behavior. We have begun our own "positive" training with treats for licks or general good behavior. Hopefully Jean will have a recommendation for a trainer who can further describe a plan that is truly based on positive reinforcement.


Guaranteed , Jean will point you in the right direction. These other trainers are wrong in trying to "correct" the growling itself. What you try to work on is the stimulus that is causing the growling. They were right in rewarding good behaviour but there is no such thing as "dominant " behaviour. Dogs are not trying to dominate humans . The whole domininance issue ,although still prevalent with some people has been disproved by nearly every authority with any credability. Here are two articles about Dominance . I could show you a dozen more. 
http://dogpublic.com/articles/article.aspx?t=training411&sid=14&pid=1640 
And here is the other one ,by our very own Norma Jeanne Laurette

The Dominance Theory

By Norma Jeanne Laurette

Let me begin by saying I was taught the "dominance" theory - as it pertains to our pet dog's and their interactions with us, their guardians. Within my first year of instructing dog training classes, I stopped using choke chains, pinch (prong) collars, alpha rolls and all use of force or physical punishment because I quickly realized the potential harm the use of these tools could o to a dog. This potential for harm is not only physical and psychological, it can destroy the trust our dogs have in us, and as a result, the bond between a dog and its owner may be corrupted. Since trust and respect are sides of the same coin, I feel the dog's trust in its owner must be

protected at all cost. Along the same lines, I no longer use the word "obedience" in association with training due to its basic meaning according to The Oxford Dictionary, "submissive to another's will".

At that point in my career, I didn't realize there were many trainers already using positive methods. I was convinced I was the only one in my city with the beliefs I held, and I felt very much alone. Since then, I have met so many of like-mind, and I've learned so much, and continue to learn everyday. I'm happy to say, my city now consists almost totally of "positive"trainers.

Although I no longer taught the use of tools or techniques that involved pushing or punishing, I did teach the "dominance" theory and the importance of "leading the pack". Over the past few years this theory has been challenged, and as a result, I renewed my research on the subject. Because of what this research revealed, at this time, I no longer agree with the "dominance" concept. Here's why.

There is a common belief among dog owners and trainers alike, that dogs will challenge their owners in attempt to rise in rank, and lead the pack. This theory has been around for decades, and although still popular, many of the top canine behaviour experts now believe this concept to be incorrect, and assert that we have misinterpreted the dog's motivation by interpreting the dog's behaviour in that manner.

Dog owners and trainers alike often use the "dominance" theory to explain a variety of canine behaviours. Trainers often use this theory to justify both the use of aversive tools and physical techniques designed to over-power the dog, with the objective of intimidating the dog into subservience in order to stop unwanted "dominant" behaviours. This type of "training" works by virtue of the concept that the dog becomes afraid to "behave" in particular ways for fear of punishment. Unfortunately, this has cost many dogs their lives. "Dominance exercises" have

been known to cause aggression and other unwanted behaviour that result in euthanasia. In one case, a trainer in Florida actually killed a dog while attempting to force it into submission. After muzzling the dog and sitting on it for over an hour, the dog lost consciousness and later that day, had to be euthanized due to its injuries. R10

The concept of "ranking" comes from the idea that a wolf will challenge another of similar rank, hopefully winning the challenge, thereby gaining higher status, and eventually, leading the pack. Many believe this behaviour has been passed down over thousands of years, affecting the behaviour of domestic dogs and their interactions with their human guardians. R1

In reality, only "unacquainted" wolves living in captivity behave in a manner that appears as though they are competing for "status", due to confined artificially created territories. R7 In my opinion, this is just another example of wolves being forced to compete for limited resources, such as food and mating rights.

Wolf packs living in the wild are dominated by one alpha male and female breeding pair, who guide and protect their cubs. R9 As soon as they are old enough to mate, these cubs will leave the pack to find mates, and raise families of their own. This would mean that every wolf healthy enough, and able to find a mate, will be "alpha" at one time or another during its lifespan, but only when raising its young.

During the socialization period of development, a puppy is imprinted with recognition of its own species. As a result, dogs do not identify humans as "canines" or "pack members", because we smell, think and behave differently. R2 According to John Fisher, because we are not perceived as dogs by dogs, they will not compete with us for rank. R3 With "alpha" position comes the responsibility of providing for the pack and because we provide everything the dog needs, such

as food, shelter etc., it would be counter-productive for a dog to challenge us for "alpha" position. R4

According to Coppinger, R6 dogs became isolated from their wild ancestors long ago resulting in a new species, the Canis Familiaris - the domestic dog. Although some wolf-like behaviours remain in the domestic dog, since they are a different species, it's not realistic to assume all dog behaviours will be the same as those of the wolf. However, if we choose to compare domestic dogs' behaviour to it's natural ancestors, it only makes sense that we should compare it to the wild

wolf, not wolves attempting to survive in the face of human interference. R5

Every behaviour blamed on "dominance" is normal in canine terms and can be explained by simple motivation and reinforcement. It's quite simple, dogs want good things. R11 If you saw a $100 bill lying in the street would you not pick it up? Why then is a dog helping itself to your dinner "dominant"?, when they are scavengers by nature. It's not a "dominant" dog that takes your food, it's a normal dog doing what comes naturally to its species.

This is what I believe now; one of the few commonalities between dogs and humans is - some are more assertive than others. Dogs that are more assertive will try harder to obtain valued resources, be it attention, food, comfortable sleeping places, freedom to run and explore etc. Dogs that are less assertive are quicker to relinquish the resource to a more assertive dog or human. Since it's about the resource, it stands to reason - if you can control what the dog values, you can control the dog. An assertive dog is more of a challenge to train, but it has nothing to do with dominance.

Although it may seem as though we are "splitting hairs" with terminology, the main difference is this. According to The Oxford Dictionary, "Dominance" means "in control over a group" and "assertive" means "to insist". An assertive dog is challenging a person or another dog to win resources that it wishes to control, not in order to control the other person or dog; therefore, a dog's competing for a desired resource has nothing to do with ranking.

The bottom line is this: if we want dogs to behave in a manner that is not natural to it's species then we have to control the environment to prevent the natural - yet unwanted behaviour. In order to do so, we have to teach new behaviours and reinforce them. Although dogs need guidance to be good companions, "dominating" them has proven to be counter-productive at the very least, and extremely abusive at its worst. It's time for us to teach those around us, dog owners and dog trainers alike, to stop blaming, labelling and punishing dogs with a "dominance" tag. When the world becomes aware that it is not only easier, but also more productive, to teach instead of punish, only then will the world be a more humane place for dogs.

References

R1 - Dominance Fact or Fiction?, Barry Eaton 2002, Page 4 - Dominance: Where Does It Come From?

R2 - Dominance Fact or Fiction?, Barry Eaton 2002, Page 4 - Pack Theory

R3 - Diary of a Dotty Dog Doctor, John Fisher 1997

R4 - Dominance Fact or Fiction?, Barry Eaton 2002, Page 5 - Pack Theory

R5 - Dominance Fact or Fiction?, Barry Eaton 2002, Page 7 - Origins Of The Pack Rules

R6 - The Domestic Dog, Edited by James Serpell 1999

R7 - Dominance Fact or Fiction? Barry Eaton 2002, Page 6 and 7 - Origins Of The Pack Rules

R8 - Dominance Fact or Fiction? Barry Eaton 2002, Page 7 - Origins Of The Pack Rules

R9 - Alpha Status, and Division of Labor in Wolf Packs, David Mech, 2000

R10 - http://www.palmbeachpost.com/pbcentral/content/local_news/epaper/2006/07/19/s1b_deaddog_0719.html

R11 - The Power of Positive Dog Training, Pat Miller, Howell Book House, Wiley Publishing Inc., 2001

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## davetgabby

Scooter's Family said:


> Jenny Schneider from Camp Canine USA. Her website is www.campcanineusa.com. I really liked her, she's holding a class in late March that I'd like to do with Scooter. She was here for 2 1/2 hours and charged me for an hour and half because she said that's how long she usually takes.


by the look of her "Recommended Books" at her web site , she is definitely a Positive trainer and on the right track. Thanks for being such a responsible dog owner and doing your homework. Hugs and wags Dave


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## Scooter's Family

Thanks Dave. It was nice to hear from her that we are at least doing some of the training properly. Knowing we were bringing in a pet to be a part of our family, and for such a long time, we want him to be trained properly. In the long run it will make all of us happier!!!


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## davetgabby

So true , your reap what you sew.


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## kcpuppyquest

*growling update*



marisoma said:


> KC, I can so relate to your pup growling at your daughter. Giotto from day one has growled at my 12 year old niece. The moment she saw him and picked him up he growled and it has continued. It's lessened and gotten better, but it still happens and if she does not listen to his growl he will snap at her.
> 
> I did obedience training with him and I talked to the vet and took him to two trainers (one outside and one came to my home). I've tried numerous things to stop this behavior and the only thing that has helped is Emma not picking him up. If she just plays with him and lets him come to her, it's fine. He is always happy to see her and he lets her walk him and feed him and he obeys her if she tells him to sit or come or any command. He just does not like her to hold him. To be honest, he doesn't seem to like any kids to hold him for very long. He is happy to play and be petted, but not picked up. I've kind of resigned myself to the fact that he is a dog that doesn't want to be carried around, at least by children.
> 
> The last trainer we had thought this was a habit I needed to break but it's been a hard one. I am thinking maybe this is just his quirk and we have to accept that about him. At first that was hard for Emma because she did want to hold him and she was feeling like he didn't like her. She now knows he does love her, but he doesn't love being held and he will let her know that.
> 
> I can understand that you want your puppy to enjoy being held by your daughter and she wants that too. It's part of the joy of having a puppy. I hope the trainer helps you to acheive that. Giotto has gotten much better over the past few months but it took a lot of consistent effort in getting him there.


Dear Marisoma,
So sorry for the delayed response - it was a relief to hear from someone who can really relate to our situation! Thank you!! While Jean from the SF SPCA has been so wonderful connecting us with Positive reinforcement trainers (not an easy task for where we live!) it is still a struggle. We are consistently applying their training methods, and will continue to do so, but we have not seen any improvement yet. When Gizmo shows his gremlin side in front of the trainer, she says we may want to consider taking him back to the breeder. So, all paths are difficult ones for my daughter right now. The breeder has not been understanding either. So, for now, we will keep up the training effort 100% to see if we can make progress.


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## marb42

I'm surprised your trainer was so ready to give up and send him back to the breeder. Our trainer warned us that changing behavior could take months, and that definitely was the case with Marble. His improvement is slow and did take months of practice and consistency. 

Marble doesn't like to be held much either. If a stranger attempts to hold him, he'll definitely growl. He will occasionally let me kids hold him for a second without growling, but he starts to wiggle and growl quickly to get down. He will let me hold him briefly, but I have to put him down quickly. This is just something we have accepted in our house, and the kids know how to handle him. He does show his love and cuddle in other ways. He is always excited to greet them and give them kisses when they come home. 
For the first year, he'd almost never lay down and allow his body to touch someone. Now he will sometimes lay down on the couch or floor snuggled up to someone. He will let the kids hold him on their lap in the car, but that is the only place where he will stay still on a lap. 

Perhaps your daughter could learn to enjoy less for now. I know it's hard and not what you expected. My dog has had a significant amount of issues and wasn' t what we expected in a lot of ways. I always remind the kids how horrible it would have been for the wrong person to get Marble, because they may have not been patient and loving like us. Perhaps your daughter can look at that way, as if she's helping a dog who has certain fear issues, etc. It's very possible, though, that you dog will become more trusting and allow more holding or cuddling in the future. 
Good luck.
Gina


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