# very small size kibble bites?



## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

Have been feeding Ellie, now 6 months, 3/4 raw and 1/4 Innova Puppy Food Kibble (at different times). She is continuing to gain weght and the vet is concerned - not sure they're right. 

It was suggested I switch to adult kibble - low fat. I got a package of Evo Ancestral Diet Reduced fat. The pieces of kibble are about 3 times as large as the Innova and she appears to have trouble chewing them. I went to several stores and all the kibble that is high in protein and has no grains, seems to be fairly large in individual pellet size.

The Evo is 51% protein while the Innova Puppy is 21% protein - this is a big difference. I don't want to use a kibble with grains because that probably will not act as a weight reducer.

Any suggestions? I don't want to have to buy several $10 bags to maybe find one that has a smaller size pellet and I don't know if it exists.

Louise


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Louise
Poor little Ellie. Is she really gaining in fat, or is it just that she's growing more than the vet thought she should, (although why he'd think that if she's not fat doesn't make sense.) 
I don't know anything about low fat dog foods. I can see how a larger kibble might be hard to chew for a little dog, though. Have you checked on the health threads to see if you need to cut back on the raw or anything like that?


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## boo2352 (Dec 18, 2006)

Macgyver eats California Natural small bites, which, I think. is made by the same company as Innova. He had trouble with the larger food, too. If they make small bites for CA Natural, they may make it for Innova, too.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Hi Louise, the smallest size no grain kibble I found was Timberwolf, wild and natural. Very, very small. and only 36% protein. Like all of the no grain kibbles it has potato.

http://www.timberwolforganics.com/Pet-Foods/Wild-Natural

If you like using the EVO and she has been eating Innova, you may not have to use the low fat version (which does not come in small bites) but the regular version...both the chicken and the Red meat come in small bites. There is a lot of evidence that pets can actually lose weight with less carbs and more fat. So Ellie may lose weight merely by switching from Innova to EVO.

Cash, is my boy with a weight issue. If I feed him any form of carbs, including no grain with potato in it--- he becomes ravenous...if I feed him nothing but the raw medallions (even if it is less food) he is not hungry...(this also stops his poop eating) not sure what this means, I plan on discussing it with the Vet on his next visit...but just wanted to throw it out there.

I also just wanted to warn you about the amount to feed on smaller size kibble... it is much denser so you feed less. I would also say start on the lower end of what they recommend.

good luck. keep us posted


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

NV recommends 4.8 oz plus 1/4 cup of kibble. I'm giving her 4 oz plus 1/4 cup of kibble.

I realized I have been using a lot of treats, Sold Gold Tiny Tots in an effort to train this Energizer Bunny (the trainer referred to her this way), and I will cut back on those.

Primal nuggets site, although it doesn't provide the option of raw and kibble, recommends 5.5 oz.

Louise


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

How much does she weigh at 6 months? Is she really "fat" or is she just big?


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

Thanks - that's a great idea.

I just looked at their site and the differences in protein and carbs is not that great between the small bites and the reduced fat, particularly if I use the chicken small bites. I myself am a true believer in keeping the carbs down so I will give this a try.

The protein in the chicken small bites is 43% and the carbs are 12%. The protein in the Low Fat is 55% and the carbs are 9%. That's not such a big difference.

Tonight, as she looked at the bowl and back at me plaintively, I finally took a hammer and a bread board and broke up the size of the Evo Low Fat pellets - but this dedication will not last . 

BTW, I've also been using Solid Gold Tiny Tots as treats for training and she gets a fair amount of them. They don't have a nutritional breakdown, but they do contain molasses and a few other things I recognize to be high carb. What do you use for treats?

Thanks again.

Louise


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

I'm feeding Natural Balance Potato and Duck small bites. It's grain free and 21% crude protein. It's the only food my Maltese can tolerate (that I've found) and it's sold at Petco.

Good luck!
Beverly


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

She weighs 9.6 lbs. Two weeks ago she weighed 8.9 lbs and three weeks before that, she weighed 7.11 lbs.

I really don't know if she's big or fat - never had a Havanese and it's hard because of their little legs, I would think they can look fat pretty easily without actually being so.

I did bring her back to the store where I bought her when she was 8.9 lbs, (they specialize in small dogs) and the person who's been there for a long time felt her ribs and said she's not fat. BUT, she warned, she's not thin and she will be spayed soon and she will put on some more weight, so be careful!

How do I know if she's big or if she's fat? I feel like I would need a vet who specializes in the breed and really knows them - needless to say, I've no way to find one. 

She doesn't look thin though and I would like to do everything I can in advance of having to put her on a serious diet.

Louise


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Louise,
If you put your fingers through her coat to her skin on her rib cage and can feel the ribs, she's not fat. If you can't feel the ribs, she's over weight. It's pretty simple. With their heavy coats you can't tell by looking.

Where do you live? Is there a Havanese club nearby?


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Why don't you just feed her less then?? instead of 4oz, feed her 3.5 or 3! Or do away with the kibble..... Whatever works for you..

Ryan


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

I dont think 9 lbs at 6 months sounds fat, but it really depends on her structure. Do you know how big her parents and grandparents were?
If you rub your hands donw her back/ribs, can you feel her ribs? When you pinch her skin together, do you feel alot of fat under the skin?
I just don't think a 6 mo old puppy should be put on a "diet"-
You say she is really active? Do you take her on walks at all?
Sometimes you can get little sample size bags at some of the smaller mom/pop type of stores.
I feel Wellness Just for Puppy to my little guys. The kibble size is pretty small and they do really well on it-


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

I know nothing about the size and weight of her parents and grandparents.

Yes, I can feel her ribs, but I also feel some fat (I would not say a lot of fat), when I pinch her skin. However, it wasn't there 2 or 3 months ago.

I agree with you - I want to examine her food carefully and make some changes, but I do not want to put a puppy on a diet - that can't be right! 

She hasn't had enough activity at all. The weather has been unusually cold, she wont walk on ice and salt and has refused 5 different pairs of boots I've tried. Now, as it's getting a little warmer, I can't take her to the dog run because I'm afraid she could get pregnant. I also can't take her to any kind of daycare because they wont take her until she's spayed. She has an appointment to be spayed mid February, the weather will get warmer, and I definitely intend to increase her activity.

On the other hand, I have a very large and long apartment and she does run up and down about 60 ft of room and hall many many times a day when she and/or we, are playing. We are also going to obedience training once a week but that doesn't give her much run around oppty.


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

When I deliberately put my fingers through her coat as you suggested, yes, I feel ribs. I think part of the vet's concern is the rate of the weight gain over the last six weeks but that may not mean anything.

I live in New York City - in Manhattan, on the upper west side. I never knew there were Havanese Clubs until I found this group - which I found after I'd already purchased her.

Do you know if there is a Club nearby? I could rent a car if there was none in NY, but one in nearby New Jersey or something like that.

Thanks.

Louise


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## earthnut (Aug 28, 2008)

If you can feel her ribs, I wouldn't worry about her. She's *not* overweight. Domino was 10 pounds at 6 months and he was slightly underweight. Frankly, I'd try another vet. From what I've seen of your threads, I have some doubts about the one you're seeing...


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

I tried that and she seemed really really hungry. She began watching all my food and looking longingly everytime I went into the kitchen.

On the amount I'm presently feeding, she doesn't do that. She has absolutely never been fed from the table and never while cooking in the kitchen - so she had no reason to expect it. I think she was really hungry!

Louise


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

louise said:


> I tried that and she seemed really really hungry. She began watching all my food and looking longingly everytime I went into the kitchen.


That part is normal and I'd encourage you to ignore that. If you really feel like she isn't getting enough food and you want to supplement her, you can give her some higher fiber, low calorie treats like green beans and carrots.

Fromm kibble is small (at least the salmon & chicken varieties that I've used), but it is hard to find. Purina Pro Plan is a smaller kibble too. Both brands will probably have a type of kibble that you are trying to find within their options.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Louise, what I would do if I were you (and I have been where you are) is do away with the solid gold treats. Just feed Ellie the 4 oz of medallions-- and then use the 1/4 cup of kibble as training treats! Or...4 medallions and some other kind of treat (I like Canz real meat treats...I break each 1" square jerky into 8 tiny morsels) but NOT both the treats and the kibble. (or as ryan says...just do the kibble and no raw... they don't need both) 
I have to tell you my 22lb Cash only gets 4-5 medallions a day. any more he gains weight. The feeding amounts are recommendations only... 

Some vets prefer dogs very thin... Cash feels pudgy even when he is down to his best weight (which is a stuggle to keep him at) he just has a heavy set frame and a loose skin. Ellie may not be as bad as you fear. Perhaps take her to another vet for a 2nd opinion. 

In terms of running around your apartment. 60 ft is a lot. But is she playing or running? Playing does not use up as much energy as you think. it is short bursts. We used to play the "come" game. and make our pups literally run back and forth between us for 20 minutes straight for tiny morsels of food on each end when the weather was bad and we had to burn off some energy. You also get to teach her the word COME.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

louise said:


> I live in New York City - in Manhattan, on the upper west side. I never knew there were Havanese Clubs until I found this group - which I found after I'd already purchased her.
> 
> Do you know if there is a Club nearby? I could rent a car if there was none in NY, but one in nearby New Jersey or something like that.
> 
> ...


Louise,
I think there are at least a couple of Forum folks that live in NY, too. I'd suggest starting a new thread with that question in it, so that they will see it. They might not be reading this thread.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

There are two Havanese clubs that cover your general area, but check out the Greater New York Havanese Club at http://www.gnyhc.org. You're just in time to meet many of them with the Westminster show right around the corner. They have a specialty on Feb 7 and a self-hosted dinner that evening too. You have a couple of opportunities to meet local Havanese people there.


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

Thanks for the info. I have a family obligation that weekend and probably wont be able to make it. But, the group seems to have periodic meetings in the NYC area so I will contact the membership person.

Louise


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

Just to let you know I got the Evo small chicken bites today and Ellie can eat them easily. They are lower in carbs and higher in protein by a lot. I think it's the answer - and she likes them!

Thanks again.

Louise


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## tuggersmom (Oct 16, 2008)

louise said:


> Have been feeding Ellie, now 6 months, 3/4 raw and 1/4 Innova Puppy Food Kibble (at different times). She is continuing to gain weght and the vet is concerned - not sure they're right.
> 
> It was suggested I switch to adult kibble - low fat. I got a package of Evo Ancestral Diet Reduced fat. The pieces of kibble are about 3 times as large as the Innova and she appears to have trouble chewing them. I went to several stores and all the kibble that is high in protein and has no grains, seems to be fairly large in individual pellet size.
> 
> ...


we give Fromms Salmon and veggies and it has very small bits. We switched from the Duck and Potatos because it had big bits and Tugger had trouble eating it too.


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