# Hair length and matts?



## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

Hello all!

I had Tillie shaved down in March because I just did not have the time nor the patience to groom her for 3 hrs a day while she was blowing coat!
I have been growing her coat out since then, and it is starting to get quite long, about 4-5 inches now. And she is starting to matt horribly again!?

I am wondering if it is this particular length that makes her matt for some reason, or if she could be going through a small blowing coat phase (14 months old) or if for some reason this is as long as I can get her coat without having to cut her back again?

Has this happened to anyone else?? I would love to be able to grow her coat out, but it is just getting so tangly and matted and scruffy looking! She gets a bath every 7-10 days and I comb and brush her out every day.

thanks!


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

Jack has been going through "Blowing Coat" for several months. He is 16 months old. Mats are horrible!


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## whimsy (Apr 3, 2010)

do you use a conditioner after you shampoo?? Maybe that would help.


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## heatherk (Feb 24, 2011)

I just recently found out (by personal experience!) that it matters a LOT which combs/brush you use, along with what types of shampoo/conditioner you use! Since switching to CC combs and brushes, and high-quality shampoo and conditioner along with 1 part CC Spectrum Ten Hydropac conditioner with 9 parts water for spraying on Ceylon before grooming him, he has had VERY few matts even if I miss a day of combing. He is definitely not blowing coat yet though, so I am not sure if what I am doing will hold up when that happens, BUT, he recently started getting matts at the drop of a hat, until I switched to the CC products and better shampoo/conditioner/combing spray. It REALLY does make a difference. What types of products/combs do you use on Tillie?


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## heatherk (Feb 24, 2011)

Also, Cey's hair is right between about 4-5 inches as well... maybe closer to 4...


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

I do use conditioner! I'd be crazy not to! LOL
I am 'cheap' on the grooming supplies though, and I don't even HAVE a brush! LOL
I use the metal, long tooth comb and a flea comb for her face ... as for shampoo and conditioner I have always used 'plum silky' and she does great with it. I really worry about changing her shampoo and conditioner because she does have so many allergies and intolerances, I would hate to add something new to her system and freak it all out again!! 
Maybe I'll look into the CC brushes, I have heard amazing things about them what kind do you use? the site seems so overwhleming there are so many to choose from!!


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## heatherk (Feb 24, 2011)

TilliesMom said:


> I do use conditioner! I'd be crazy not to! LOL
> I am 'cheap' on the grooming supplies though, and I don't even HAVE a brush! LOL
> I use the metal, long tooth comb and a flea comb for her face ... as for shampoo and conditioner I have always used 'plum silky' and she does great with it. I really worry about changing her shampoo and conditioner because she does have so many allergies and intolerances, I would hate to add something new to her system and freak it all out again!!
> Maybe I'll look into the CC brushes, I have heard amazing things about them what kind do you use? the site seems so overwhleming there are so many to choose from!!


I totally know what you mean, which was why I asked for advice in an earlier post lol. I got the smallest, cheapest CC pin brush. It's good for brushing before combing - if I try to comb without brushing first sometimes it's about impossible. Then, I got the CC #5 buttercomb comb, and that is THE BEST grooming purchase I have EVER made. SO much better than my previous comb! If there was one product I would recommend you buy, it would be that, hands down. It has made SUCH a difference! It's funny, I thought before, well, a comb is a comb, right?? Well, that is SO not true, when it comes to combing out our little havs!! I have NO idea why the CC comb is so much better - I look at it and it looks pretty **** similar to the comb I had before, but, omg, WHAT a difference it has made!!!

There's a whole post that I started when I was asking for grooming tools advice (http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=14714) and there's many other suggestions there, but I don't have much $ so I just went with Karen's 'must-have' suggestions with those two products, plus getting a better shampoo and conditioner (the previous ones I was using with Cey were real cheapo ones - if you are happy with your shampoo/conditioner choices then I wouldn't think you would need to change) and also the CC spectrum 10 hypro pac conditioner. BTW, the spectrum 10 hypro pac has seemed to help a LOT with taming Cey's flyaway hairs if I use it as a diluted conditioning spray (I also use it directly, full strength, on matts, and for me it seems to work even better than cornstarch, which I can't stand using anyway - the 'feel' of the cornstarch gives me the creeps lol), so if I was you I would at least try it with Tillie for the 1/10 conditioner/9/10 water grooming conditioning spray to at least see if she can tolerate it, since that might help.

Whatever you do, I really would very strongly recommend that you at the very least get the CC #5 buttercomb! I couldn't believe how much of a difference it made!

Good luck!

-Heather


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

I do not use a brush. The brush will MISS lots of Mats! A wide-tooth comb is a necessary grooming item. I also use a flea type comb or similar to get the very small knots out of the hair that the wide tooth comb cannot remove. I also use a comb to pick at the mat to loosen it up or pull from the edges of the mat.


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## SOPHIES-MOM (Oct 4, 2010)

Sophie is blowing coat and it's a nightmare. I got her groomed and she litterally had matts the next day and every five minutes since.It's like she's growing cotton candy.I think I'll just get her body shaved and hope I can control the small area of her head.She will be one on Wednesday.


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

If Sophie cannot tolerate the combing and detangling process, then a short cut would be good for her. 

Be prepared to be shocked when you see her groom. It appears the groomers do not listen!!! 

I have been working on Jack ...it seems like forever...after the surgery on his head...the MATTS were absolutely HORRIFYING.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

I think I have got this blowing coat thing down! First of all I bath more often these days. The cleaner the coat the less matting. It is not unrealistic to bath every 5 days. If you go out and get dirty then more bathing. Second the fuzzy baby coat needs to be brushed out that along with elements from out doors is what causes the mat. If you don't have the coat totally mat free before bathing and have taken the time to get the loose fuzz undercoat out you will have more mats!
A slicker brush especially if you aren't showing is a diamond of a tool to get the undercoat out! They sell small ones for long coat small breed dogs . I do what I call line grooming I put them on my lap and start with the stomach. It is a great way to get under their arm pits and down the legs. You do small sections at a time. I start with a wide tooth comb then use the smaller tooth for when I find a Mat. Then I put them on their sides and start section by section starting at the bottom to top. Behind the ears are areas you can miss. I was so surprised how many mates I had been missing before I was taught line grooming. It can take about 3 hr the first time you do this because of all the hidden monsters. I then when mat free will take the slicker brush and gently start all over again in small sections bring the slicker brush all the way to the skin to grab the fuz undercoat the is being shed. Havanese is not a shedding breed I say while blowing coat they are!
Another factor to Mats is making sure your dog's coat is hydrated . The diet is the number one factor for dehydration. The second factor is harsh shampoos. 
Because I have always been worried about getting soap in my girls eyes I haven't really ever slavered shampoo around their faces and heads. I can tell you that Zoeys head ears and face are so much more hydrated smooth and shinny . Fish oil added to diet is great for their coat I also have added some vitamins called Fresh Factors by springtime. I have also started adding oil treatments to Zoeys coat. With Tillie you probably don't want to change anything. But I would water down the shampoo you are using and keep the conditioner on for about 10 min.
I have been using VO5 Hot oil treatment. I spray on conditioner between baths and have changed their diet. The slicker brush is also a great for loosing up tight mats then use the comb.
I know people here on the forum say NO to slicker Brushes I say YES!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

DH came and told me today HE found 2 matts on her .. he never pays attention to her grooming so this surprised me... and lo and behold what he called a matt was a MONSTER! sigh ... HUGH silver dollar size matt behind her left ear... that was fun to wake up to. Then he gets mas cause we are late for church! I'm like HELLO, you can NOT tell me about a massive matt and expect me not to DO anything about it!!
Cause seriously, if I would have waited, it would have taken over 1/2 her body with the way these things grow!
I will look into that comb ... does anyone have an excellent CC brush recommendation since it looks like I'll be placing an order soon?
sigh... I THOUGHT we were done blowing coat... does this EVER end!!!!? If it keeps up much longer I will probably have her shaved down again. She does tolerate the grooming sessions, but I hate spending so much time torturing her LOL on top of the home cooking and everything else I have to do to keep her healthy, I spend WAY more time with/on her than I do my human kids or husband!! sigh...


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

thinking about trying the "Spectrum 10 system kit" ... is that what you are talking about Heather? It has the $10 trial kit... which is a fantastic idea!!


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## heatherk (Feb 24, 2011)

TilliesMom said:


> thinking about trying the "Spectrum 10 system kit" ... is that what you are talking about Heather? It has the $10 trial kit... which is a fantastic idea!!


I actually meant the spectum ten hypropac intensive treatment - if you look at the 'specialty shampoos and conditoners' it's on the bottom of the page, comes in a round jar... but I might have to try the trial pack you are talking about as well, I'm still not totally satisfied with the latest shampoo I got (avoderm)


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Rosie was cut down first of January, then maybe April she started matting all over again as the hair had grown out pretty well. It lasted for two or three weeks and then quit. Her hair is 4-5 inches long now and I brushed her last night for the first time in several days. She had one mat on the front of her hind leg and some minor ones on her belly that I cut off. I have noticed that her hair is silkier and thiner than it was last year. Maybe we are beginning to get an adult coat coming in cause there is a lot of real short hair mixed in. Or maybe that is the undercoat. I have never been sure what an undercoat is. On a schnauzer the under coat is a soft fur and the outer coat is harsh and much longer. When they are trimed down they are soft because you lose the outer layer with the shaving. I can't tell about Rosie.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

is it one of the ones I can get a "sample" of with my order??

I just gave Tillie a bath, been 7 days since her last one, figured it was time and she'll be due for another by the time my new goodies arrive... hopefully they'll be here by the time bath day rolls around again!
I decided to use MY conditioner on her LOL and let it sit for a few minutes, rinsed then used the Plum Silky and let it sit for a few minutes and rinsed. We'll see if this helps at all. probably not, BUT I wanted to give it a shot! I'll look at combs/brushes/shampoo/conditioner/etc later tonight, hopefully I'll make my mind up by tomorrow so I can ORDER. LOL


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

Thanks Lucile! that gives me HOPE! 
Tillie was shaved down in March and is just now having bad matting problems... sounds like the same time elapsed with Rosie's shave down and matting... I'll keep on keepin' on!


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

By the way, I use pantene conditioner on her and baby shampoo. AAlways have used the conditioner. I did use pantene shampoo (mine) but it is so hard to rinse without getting soap in the eyes that I just went to baby shampoo for all over. Oh and I rarely comb. Rosie hates it. I juse an All Systems brush, small one. I line brush. If I come to a mat, a lot of times I can brush it out or pull apart with my fingers and still brush out. If not I use the little face comb to get the mat out. It also gets all those little knots that you find in their hair. And any mat on the belly, I just snip off.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> The slicker brush is also a great for loosing up tight mats then use the comb.
> I know people here on the forum say NO to slicker Brushes I say YES!


Good post, Suzi! My breeder agrees with you about the slicker... She sent Kodi home with one.. That said, it's important to use it correctly, the way you explained it. If you just try to rip it through an ungroomed coat, you will really damage the coat. If you do it the way you explained, groom the coat COMPLETELY before you touch it with the slicker, the long hair you want to keep will slide right through, and the puppy fuzz that collects in the slicker is exactly what you WANT to get rid of.

I had totally forgotten that I did that too. (how soon we forget!!!) i found that the more of that loose abay fuzz I could get out BEFORE it wrapped around his other hair and caused mats, the easier it was to keep him groomed during that stage. And while I don't show in breed shows, his coat looked pretty darned nice even through blowing coat. So I don't think that using a slicker that way did a lot of damage. I think you just have to be careful not to misuse it.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

what kind of slicker brush?


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

okay, I have my "shopping list" put together... haven't order quite yet though...
I have down the "Spectrum 10 System's Kit" (the $10 trial kit), SPECTRUM 10 HYPRO PAC INTENSE TREATMENT, BUTTERCOMB #5, 20MM SM. WOOD PIN BRUSH ... do you guys think these things will help enough to avoid having to cut her down again???


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TilliesMom said:


> what kind of slicker brush?


Pam was very insistent that it be a "Univeral Slicker" brush. (that's what she sent him home with) I'm not exactly sure why this brand. I do know that it's made in Germany, but they aren't hard to find here, and they aren't expensive. I think she thought that the tines were less sharp than some of the others, and less likely to scratch the skin.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TilliesMom said:


> okay, I have my "shopping list" put together... haven't order quite yet though...
> I have down the "Spectrum 10 System's Kit" (the $10 trial kit), SPECTRUM 10 HYPRO PAC INTENSE TREATMENT, BUTTERCOMB #5, 20MM SM. WOOD PIN BRUSH ... do you guys think these things will help enough to avoid having to cut her down again???


Well, you'll love the wooden pin brush, but if you want to save a little money, you could get the cheaper metal pin brush for now, and get the wooden pin brush later. I'm not sure the wood pin brush will help much with mats... I think of it more as a maintenance brush.


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

I agree with Karen about the wood pin brush not helping much with mats, at least with my dogs. I use it to go over them after I have combed them out. I started on Augie with a comb and that is what he is used to and tolerates the best. I have no other brushes I use on them. But I do think I need to order up the buttercomb, because I have a feeling that Finn may mat more when it comes time to blow coat.


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

You will still have to line comb and time will have to be put in with grooming. These tools will not make the mats disappear.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

HavaneseSoon said:


> You will still have to line comb and time will have to be put in with grooming. These tools will not make the mats disappear.


You can say THAT again! ound:ound:ound:


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

I am checking Jack at least 1x day for mats...it was 2x day and that was 2-3 hour sessions (last week). For the past few days, the matting has slowed down.

And, some of these mats are in the same place I just combed through the day before! It is not fair! You would think that once you combed an area, it would be mat free for a while.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

LOL ... YES, Tillie is 14 months old, I KNOW I need to put the time into her everyday! 
and time I DO put into her... more than my human kids for SURE!


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## StarrLhasa (Jun 6, 2010)

HavaneseSoon said:


> And, some of these mats are in the same place I just combed through the day before! It is not fair! You would think that once you combed an area, it would be mat free for a while.


The biggest cause of matting for my two is their energetic play with each other. I have not found a way to stop them from using their teeth on each other's necks, shoulders, legs, etc. Whenever I see them going for each other's faces with their teeth, I call out to them, "no faces!" They stop for a moment because they are startled and then "attack" each other anew.

They seem to be having such a good time that I don't want to stop them altogether, but Buffy, with her cottony coat, gets so matted up.

I have been growing her out since her puppy cut last September, and she looks fabulous immediately after grooming, so I don't want to cut it short again, but it sure makes for more torture for her. Buster doesn't mat very much. Lucky boy.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

my order has shipped! wooo-hooooo! Just wish it was coming from back east! sheeeesh, everything I order comes form back east and takes a full week to get here 
says it's supposed to be here next Tuesday...


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

krandall said:


> Well, you'll love the wooden pin brush, but if you want to save a little money, you could get the cheaper metal pin brush for now, and get the wooden pin brush later. I'm not sure the wood pin brush will help much with mats... I think of it more as a maintenance brush.


 I was going to say the same thing. I have both and hardly ever use the wood one. I think it is a finishing brush that doesn't cause static. I have a small CC$15.00 one that came in a bunch of colors . My pin one is less expensive than a CC it is called #1 All Systems Roberta Lombarde? ( My glasses aren't working.) Made in Germany. I think I spent around $20.00 at a show. I like it. You want to make sure the pin brush doesn't hurt your own skin when you test it on your arm. If its too late and you already ordered the wood one will be just fine.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

We had our big 3 hr grooming tonight. And even after all that I got to class and found Mats! I just know it is the loose undercoat! Does your Havanese put their paws on top of their head if you try to put a top knot? I will have to have Bob take a picture to show you guys .


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

My order came! just in time, it's been 8 days since she had a bath and she is smelling not too pleasant! LOL probably going to bathe her tomorrow while the kids are in school so I can be un-interupted! 
I haven't USED the CC #5 buttercomb yet, BUT I do notice already that the tines aren't as close as the one I already have? the spacing worries me a bit... how is it going to catch those matts? I'm afraid they will slip right through?? But the tines ARE about twice as long as my current comb! so I should be able to get down to the skin better!
I also got a little purple wood pin brush... can't wait to try it out! 
And then my CC Spectrum 10 trial kit ... looking forward to bath day for sure!!
Although as I look at the tiny little products, I can barely believe I spent $70 on this ... now.. how to break the news to my husband? LOL


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## whimsy (Apr 3, 2010)

looking forward to a report on how those bath product work out for ya and if they are truly worth the money and work better then the ones that are less expensive!!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

LOL, thanks Evelyn!  I'll let you know how they work for sure!


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

Someone mentioned Ziggy's Shampoo and Conditioner on FB so I ordered some. It smells nice and fresh. Will probably be ready for baths next week. My guys don't get very dirty and don't seem to smell, either.

McGee's hair is so thick that I am already starting to dread "blowing coat". DH asked me today if I wanted a puppy for my birthday and I said "no way!" LOL


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

I am ordering some of it too...let me know what you think...I have to order the Ccs too. Wow..well Lady Mia's coat is growing and Sir Winston's is getting shorter due to the rough play...both have a long way to go..I surely need the comb..


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

krandall said:


> Pam was very insistent that it be a "Univeral Slicker" brush. (that's what she sent him home with) I'm not exactly sure why this brand. I do know that it's made in Germany, but they aren't hard to find here, and they aren't expensive. I think she thought that the tines were less sharp than some of the others, and less likely to scratch the skin.


I don't know what it is about the Universal slicker brush, but I have one that is older than I want to admit and it is still working...they are great...


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

WOW! Mia is gorgeous! LOVE her coat!!

Is "Universal" the brand??


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Yea Tillie has new stuff! can you take a picture of your new comb I would love to see what it looks like Oh yea and before and after pictures of Tillie.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

will do!! tomorrow is SPA DAY for Tillie 

I did the dreaded "shaving of the hair between the paws" and nails/bottom/ear hair trim today, so tomorrow she just gets the bath and blow dry with all her new products! 

I'll try to remember to take pics!


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