# My perfect obedience puppy has suddenly stopped being so perfect.



## Tuss (Apr 22, 2012)

Gemma is now 7 months old. We were doing so well with obedience classes. She was always the star of the class. Her eye contact never wavered. She learned her sits, downs, healing and even stays without too many repetitions. She learned so quick that it was amazing to watch and so fun to train.

Then suddenly a few weeks ago she became a little monster. You ask her to sit and she lays down. You say down and she sits, then wanders away. Ask her to sit and she looks at me the stands up and walks the other direction!

I had a private lesson with my trainer and she said the dog is "working me" and realizes that she has the ability to get me frustrated and is enjoying manipulating me! She suggested I get in contact with some other havanese owners and see if this is a breed thing and if it's an ongoing struggle or just a faze. We are doing clicker training, no compulsion training

For now I'm right back to basics, doing lots of attention work. I have BBQ'd liver which is her favorite treat. I'm doing lots and lots of negative attention (turning my back on her when she misbehaves for 15 seconds) and it seems to be working, but she's still not back to being as good as she was. 

Any other suggestions or advice? Also, it seems that this change happened right around the time she was spayed and we took a 2 week break from obedience. Perhaps I let her get away with bad behaviour she she was recovering and she's learned that? Or is this just adolescence and she'll grow out of it.


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## angiern2004 (Apr 24, 2011)

How old is she again? Trooper is doing that stuff too (especially the backwards commands). I'm sure it's an adolescent phase where he's pushing limits. We have a 12 year old that's in the same phase, lol!


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## marlowe'sgirl (Jun 17, 2010)

Welcome to adolescence. It's a phase and it passes. My pup's recall was and is very good. But during this phase, his favorite game became "I'm not leaving the dog park until you catch me."


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

Yep me too, Timmy is eight months old. Not sure if it's a Hav thing adolescence or not. Timmy's trainer says he's a "player." :biggrin1: On a positive note though she said his behavior shows that he's pretty intelligent and goes one step further then just the command. I took a session off from classes and am starting up again the middle of August, with a new trainer. I love the trainer I've had but the class schedule doesn't work for one of her classes. I am interested to get another trainer's opinions and see how my little "player" does.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Yes, your puppy is maturing...puppies have a phase where they follow our every order, happily, this time of their life is a good time to introduce things they will learn later, Come, walking nicely on a leash, retreving, and lots of socializing. You need to think of this time as pre-obedience training. Many seasoned trainers do not even start formal obedience until 9 to 10 months old and then they go slowly. Remember you have a small dog and Havanese are considered a soft breed. Small dogs often take more time to train. The best thing you can do for your dog is to keep training fun, don't push there is plenty of time, you are building a bond at this time, and it's all about the team work. Also if you are planing to compete in formal obedience, try to find a trainer that has had a small dog and has at least gotten a CD. Small dogs are different. Know you are ahead of the game by takeing your dog to classes the socialization in a group is an investment in the future.


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## RitaandRiley (Feb 27, 2012)

I question whether Gemma is capable of "enjoying manipulating" you. I believe that's too complicated thinking for a dog.

Riley is the same. He does wonderfully in class, learns quickly, always on his mark. At home is a totally different matter. Most time he looks at me like I have 2 heads. He knows whether or not I have a treat and responds accordingly. Our trainer recommended I always have a treat on me. I haven't been so good with that. He is 13 months old now, we started with basic obedience at 4 months and have continued till now, he has been this way all along.


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## Tuss (Apr 22, 2012)

The Laughing Magpie said:


> Yes, your puppy is maturing...puppies have a phase where they follow our every order, happily, this time of their life is a good time to introduce things they will learn later, Come, walking nicely on a leash, retreving, and lots of socializing. You need to think of this time as pre-obedience training. Many seasoned trainers do not even start formal obedience until 9 to 10 months old and then they go slowly. Remember you have a small dog and Havanese are considered a soft breed. Small dogs often take more time to train. The best thing you can do for your dog is to keep training fun, don't push there is plenty of time, you are building a bond at this time, and it's all about the team work. Also if you are planing to compete in formal obedience, try to find a trainer that has had a small dog and has at least gotten a CD. Small dogs are different. Know you are ahead of the game by takeing your dog to classes the socialization in a group is an investment in the future.


My trainer competes and has raised several dogs to CDX and UD. Her dogs are mostly golden retrievers and she also has a saluki. She has trained people with little dogs but is more familiar with bigger dogs. She is the only trainer in this area that competes formally in obedience that uses the clicker training method which i now am a strong believer in. The other obedience school in town still believes in punishment and compulsion training; choke collars and all!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

RitaandRiley said:


> I question whether Gemma is capable of "enjoying manipulating" you. I believe that's too complicated thinking for a dog.
> 
> Riley is the same. He does wonderfully in class, learns quickly, always on his mark. At home is a totally different matter. Most time he looks at me like I have 2 heads. He knows whether or not I have a treat and responds accordingly. Our trainer recommended I always have a treat on me. I haven't been so good with that. He is 13 months old now, we started with basic obedience at 4 months and have continued till now, he has been this way all along.


Rita, you're absolutely right. The trainer is humanizing or anthropomorphizing. My bet is adolescence with possibly too much too fast and not fun anymore. http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/adolescent-dog-training-18-weeks-2-years


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I agree with both Rita and Dave. I do not believe your puppy is "playing you". She is heading into adolescence. Training doesn't always go in a smooth trajectory. There will ALWAYS be peaks and valleys to train through. You probably saw my post about Kodi, who is an EXCELLENT competition dog and a fast learner, where he suddenly, in a trial, just froze and wouldn't move. These things happen. You try to figure out what is going on, and then move forward.

Dogs ALWAYS do what is easiest and/or benefits them most. So it is our job to make them value doing what we ask. When training a young puppy, and Gemma is still VERY young, we need to ask little and reward often. Make "training" the best part of her day. It may be very serious for you, but you will get the quickest and most solid results if SHE thinks it's a big game!

Kodi was a bit older than Gemma when he had a big back-slide... Probably about 9 months. But he did have a backslide. I worked to make things as much fun as possible. Then, interestingly, I had to go to Europe on business for 3 weeks, so there was no training during that time... Wonder of wonders, he was "Peter Perfect" when I came home. I've seen BIG leaps forward in him several times after periods of absolutely NO training from time to time. To the extent that I've joked with my trainer that he learns better when I don't train him at all.. The fact is that MANY dogs do better with breaks from training now and then. 

So I suggest that to make training sessions short and fun, and if you can, I'd really consider giving her a break of at least a week or two if the "short and lots of fun" doesn't work.


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## Tuss (Apr 22, 2012)

thanks for your advice. I have another private lesson with my trainer this mornign to try and get "caught up" before we re-start classes in the fall. One thing she noticed is that when Gemma doesn't do what I want I get frustrated and just give up (and often end up tossing her a few bonus treats at the bottom of my pocket). She has learned that by doing nothing (or the opposite of what I want her to do) then she can get a jackpot! I've been resisting the urge and instead when i get frustrated go back to something easy for her so we end the training session on a positive note.

We aren't starting the next level of obedience until September so between now and then we are going to just practice what we already know and work on bad behaviour (eg. pulling on the leash on walks). It hopefully will be the break she and I both need to start fresh in the fall. 

I live in a remote area and there is only an obedience trial here once a year. It's coming up the end of July and I had hoped to put her in "pre-novice" to see if she might qualify, but I've decided we just aren't ready and instead of stressing out trying to get ready in a hurry then I'm just going to wait until next year.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tuss said:


> thanks for your advice. I have another private lesson with my trainer this mornign to try and get "caught up" before we re-start classes in the fall. One thing she noticed is that when Gemma doesn't do what I want I get frustrated and just give up (and often end up tossing her a few bonus treats at the bottom of my pocket). She has learned that by doing nothing (or the opposite of what I want her to do) then she can get a jackpot!


Ahhh, that's a HANDLER problem:biggrin1:... not a dog problem. She's doing exactly what you are training her to do. No worries, we novice handlers make a lot of mistakes with our dogs. The good thing is that dogs, in general, are a forgiving lot, and Havs (at least this is my experience with Kodi) are among the MOST forgiving.



Tuss said:


> I've been resisting the urge and instead when i get frustrated go back to something easy for her so we end the training session on a positive note.


That's EXACTLY the right thing to do. Also, try in future sessions not to take things to the point that you get frustrated or she quits. That can be very de-motivating, even if you DON'T give her treats at the wrong time. SOMETIMES, if the first sit you ask for is perfect, jackpot that, break her out and leave it at that!



Tuss said:


> We aren't starting the next level of obedience until September so between now and then we are going to just practice what we already know and work on bad behaviour (eg. pulling on the leash on walks). It hopefully will be the break she and I both need to start fresh in the fall.
> 
> I live in a remote area and there is only an obedience trial here once a year. It's coming up the end of July and I had hoped to put her in "pre-novice" to see if she might qualify, but I've decided we just aren't ready and instead of stressing out trying to get ready in a hurry then I'm just going to wait until next year.


Yeah, she's really AWFULLY young for that. There is NO hurry. The really great trainers I've met are in NO hurry to get their dogs in the ring. They know that the dog will make steady, quicker progress with a great, well-proofed base. Better for you to establish a great relationship with her, and get her REALLY solid in her skills even if it means waiting another year for a trial. In the mean time, maybe you could get her CGC as an interim goal. That's a more common title for an under a year old dog, and testings for that may be more common that Obedience Trials.

When she's really solid, you'll probably feel comfortable loading her up and taking her further afield to find trials. If not, maybe you can help organize another trial in your area. (or check out venues other than AKC... there are several)


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Tuss said:


> thanks for your advice. I have another private lesson with my trainer this mornign to try and get "caught up" before we re-start classes in the fall. One thing she noticed is that when Gemma doesn't do what I want I get frustrated and just give up (and often end up tossing her a few bonus treats at the bottom of my pocket). She has learned that by doing nothing (or the opposite of what I want her to do) then she can get a jackpot! I've been resisting the urge and instead when i get frustrated go back to something easy for her so we end the training session on a positive note.
> 
> We aren't starting the next level of obedience until September so between now and then we are going to just practice what we already know and work on bad behaviour (eg. pulling on the leash on walks). It hopefully will be the break she and I both need to start fresh in the fall.
> 
> I live in a remote area and there is only an obedience trial here once a year. It's coming up the end of July and I had hoped to put her in "pre-novice" to see if she might qualify, but I've decided we just aren't ready and instead of stressing out trying to get ready in a hurry then I'm just going to wait until next year.


 Sometimes even if you aren't ready it is still good experience to just do it. You go in not expecting any thing but a practice.  I don't think very many 7mo old pups would be expected to be perfect.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> Sometimes even if you aren't ready it is still good experience to just do it. You go in not expecting any thing but a practice.  I don't think very many 7mo old pups would be expected to be perfect.


Not a good idea in AKC Obedience, Suzi. It is against the rules to "train in the ring", and if you can't help your dog if they make mistakes, especially if they are not properly prepared, it can end up being a very negative experience for a young dog. (let alone a novice handler!)

If it were APDT Rally, I'd say give it a go! You could always ask the judge to NQ and then use cookies to get through difficult exercises. (besides, you are allowed to give a puppy treats anywhere on the course in puppy classes, as long as you don't use them to lure) They don't allow this in AKC Obedience, though. You can't even CARRY any treats into the ring, even concealed in your pocket, and you can't touch your dog during an exercise.


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## Tuss (Apr 22, 2012)

thanks for the advice Krandall. CGN testing is done every 2 years here (my big dog just got her canine good neighbour certificate).

the obedience clubs do organize "fun matches" that are just for experience, where you can use treats if you want, or you can be very serious and use it as a practice run for the real thing. Unfortunately these usually happen in the spring in preparation for the "trial season"

She actually did really well yesterday. The trainer said she is really smart and therefore picks up my handler mistakes. We're learning together. Training a small dog is very different in many ways than a big dog.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tuss said:


> thanks for the advice Krandall. CGN testing is done every 2 years here (my big dog just got her canine good neighbour certificate).
> 
> the obedience clubs do organize "fun matches" that are just for experience, where you can use treats if you want, or you can be very serious and use it as a practice run for the real thing. Unfortunately these usually happen in the spring in preparation for the "trial season"
> 
> She actually did really well yesterday. The trainer said she is really smart and therefore picks up my handler mistakes. We're learning together. Training a small dog is very different in many ways than a big dog.


Absolutely, training a little one is different than training a big dog. Sometimes you have to really think things through and be creative! At our training center, for instance, most people with big dogs do a lot of "chin heeling" (the dog rests his muzzle in the handler's left hand) while learning how to heel. NOT a possibility with our little ones!!!:biggrin1: I had to work even harderto teaxh him to stay RIGHT in position for heeling... LOTS of starts and stops with food reinforcement for just a couple of good steps, fed RIGHT at the seem of my pant leg. It was back breaking for a few months, but paid off with a dog who heels nice and tight.

Another problem we've had to work through (This is still a work in progress) is him being intimidated by large dogs near him in the long sits and downs. This is even with dogs he knows well and is friendly with outside the ring. In the long sits, he would slowly hunch down lower and lower until he was lying down. You could almost hear him say, "look at me, I'm little, I'm no threat, please don't eat me.". In the long downs, he would just break and bolt, potentially turning himself into an instant prey object.

We had to start with JUST the sits, and do them on the opposite side of the ring from the other dogs. Then we put him on the end of the line, with some other little dogs between him and the bigger ones. Now we are at the point that he will tolerate being in line between two large dogs, as long as he knows tham, and I don't get too far away. We've started to do the same sequence with the down, but with shorter times. We keep him on the end so he doesn't disturb the other dogs, and our instructor tells me when.a minute is up. We don't yet ask him for a full 3 minute down. He's making progress, but we're taking it slowly.


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