# Gracie's Blood Work IS NOT Good!! Ahhhhhh!!!!



## Gracie's Mom

OK - I've got a busy day with my kids, and I'm dying inside right now. Real quick before I run for the day. . . I took Gracie in for her spay today, and they ran blood tests. Her results did not turn out good. Her liver enzymes are high and her red blood cells are small. Could be a liver shunt they say. She is getting the Bile Acid Test today instead of the spay until they learn more information. This is killing me. She is our little girl!!!!!! Ahhhhhhh!!!!!!!!! We will most likely be doing an ultrasound in the next day or two. I think the Bile Acid test will be back tomorrow. I will keep you posted. But for now - I've got to run to Orthodontic appointments and P/T Conferences, etc. Bummer - I hate being busy when I'm really upset. Please keep Gracie in your prayers.

Karen


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## Leslie

Karen~ I'm sorry to read such devastating news about little Gracie. I will definitely put you and her into my prayers. Keep us posted as you can. :hug:


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## ama0722

Karen,
Gracie is in our prayers and I hope we find out what is going on with your little girl as soon as possible.

Amanda


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## MopTop Havanese

I am so sorry to hear about Gracie~try not to get too upset until you have more information/results. It may not be a shunt, maybe MVD, which can be controlled thru diet and suppliments/vitamins. But I am so glad you had the bloodwork done prior to her spay. 
Keep us updated on her results and feel free to email me if you like~


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## Poornima

Karen, I am so sorry to hear this. Gracie and you are in my prayers. Keep us posted. :hug:


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## Me&2Girls

Poor Gracie - you and she are in our prayers that it's something that can be controlled through diet. So glad you had her tested first.


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## pjewel

Karen,

I'm sending prayers out for you and Gracie. It's devastating to hear news like that and waiting for the results feels interminable. You may be sorry you have a busy day ahead, but I think you're better off. At least your mind will be occupied with other things part of the time.

God bless.


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## SMARTY

Try not to anticipate the worse. Our thoughts are with you and Gracie. Keep us posted.


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## Doggie Nut

Karen, you & Gracie are in my prayers! Her name says it all.....try not to worry too much even though I know this will not be easy.


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## Moko

Once again, reading such sad news makes me go numb!

I know what you mean about hating to do OTHER stuff...me, too. Only good thing is that it makes the time go faster.

Power puppy prayers your way :hug:


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## dschles

Karen--

I can totally relate to the feeling of being overwhelmed by having a thousand things to do, compounded by trying to address the medical issues of a beloved pet. I will keep you and Gracie in my thoughts. 

I am glad that your vet ran those blood tests before surgery. Some vets don't require pre-surgery bloodwork, and the results can be disasterous. Our vet didn't think pre-surgery bloodwork was necessary before our dog was neutered -- we switched vets (and we are much happier with our new vet).


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## whitBmom

Oh Karen, I am so sorry. I know how scary this type of news is, I was just in a similar situation on Monday. I hope all is well and you will both be in my thoughts and prayers. :grouphug:


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## Brady's mom

Sending good thoughts to you and Gracie.


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## brandy

:hug: hang in there.


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## mckennasedona

Karen,
You and Gracie are in our thoughts. Hopefully it will be something that can be controlled through diet. Keep good thoughts. It's probably best that you are busy. It'll make the time go faster until you get results.

Hugs!


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## Lina

Karen, I'm so sorry to hear about Gracie! I will keep you both in my thoughts. :hug:


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## marjrc

Here's wishing the best for Gracie and for you. I understand the worrying..... I'm still there after 4 months.  Luckily they did test before the surgery. This way they aren't putting her in any risky situation. Better to be sure. Good luck and let us know!


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## dotndani

I will be keeping Gracie in my thoughts and prayers.Hope all turns out to be OK,please keep us posted!


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## juliav

Karen,

Gracie and you are in our thoughts, let's that Gracie's condition is easily treatable.
Sending positive vibes for good bile acid test your way.


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## maryam187

Karen, so very sorry to hear about those results! Will keep you and Gracie in my prayers and hope for the best!


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## Leeann

Karen you and Gracie are in out thoughts and prayers :grouphug:


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## Havtahava

Karen, hang in there. Elevated liver enzymes can appear (and disappear) during regular bloodwork. Try to hold on until you get more definitive info from the other tests.


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## Cosmosmom

Karen 
We will focus on the positives that you and your vet had the foresight to do the blood testing before the procedure and she did not undergo the surgery and she had no ill effects or complications ..
Once all the tests are in you can then focus on the correct diagnosis and a effective treatment plan.
Meanwhile we will say puppy prayers for you and continue to think postve thoughts ..
Take care ..


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## ama0722

Very good point Kimberly- my good friend and I both had puppies at the same time. Her dog had surgery at 10 months and I was super sensitive with Belle since she is little too. Belle had test done and nothing came back and one time getting her yearly exam, high liver enzymes. I was crushed and automatically thought the worst. I was so upset, my husband had to come pick us up cause I was balling. Well two test later, each time they came back normal. Conclusion after a lot of money on testing- sometimes dogs eat things that throw off their liver enzymes. I hope that is the case for your Gracie.

Amanda


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## Missy

Karen, you and Gracie are in my thoughts today. I hope it turns out to be nothing more than an infection. Hugs.


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## casperkeep

We are sending out prayers for little Gracie!!!! Please keep us informed...Hugs to you both!!!!


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## Gracie's Mom

Thank you, everyone, for your kind words and prayers. I'm doing pretty well containing my fears right now. I really need to know what is actually going on with her before I get too worked up. When it is all over, I can assure you that I will break down at that point. That is just the way I work. I'm pretty strong getting through what I need to (Unfortunately, I've had some experience in this). But still, my heart races - I can't stop thinking of what it might be and what the next step is. Right now, Gracie is home and I'm enjoying her sweet little spirit. She is just the sweetest dog I know and we will do what we can to help her through all of this. I am totally in love with her and that is the hardest part - to think of how well she is acting and thinking of how she must be feeling. How can she portray such a happy little spirit?

Karen


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## anneks

Sorry to hear the news. Hopefully further tests come back showing things aren't as bleak as they may seem right now.


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## Beamer

Hi Karen
Sorry to hear this news. I've always been suspicious of liver issues with Beamer way back when he was younger due to the fact thathe was on the smaller side. Gracie also is quite small right? 5 pounds or so @ 6 months? Hopefully all her other tests will come back negative! When will you hear abot the acid bile test results?

Beamer sends good thoughts!!

Ryan


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## Sissygirl

Karen,

I am thinking about you and Gracie and hope you get very good results.

Sissy sends kisses and hugs.:hug:


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## Julie

Thoughts and prayers are being sent from us Karen.:angel: I hope Gracie's condition turns out to be something easy to control....and she is back to herself asap.:hug:


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## MaddiesMom

Karen- I'm sorry to hear the troubling news about Gracie. But as Kimberly said, the liver values can be temporarily elevated due to a number of things (eating a toxin, infection, inaccurate test, etc.). I am so glad you had blood work done prior to surgery. I wish everyone would get a baseline blood test on their dog, as early detection of problems can get treatment started right away. Maddie has had 2 normal blood tests and a normal bile acid test even though she's perfectly healthy. I will have a blood test done on her every 2 years just for peace of mind. I'll keep you and Gracie in my prayers and hope for a successful outcome.:hug:


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang

We're sending good thoughts and hoping that the blood work turns out to be a glitch or, at the very worst, something easily handled.

Hugs to you and Gracie :hug:

Wanda & Pepper


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## ivyagogo

I can't say anything more than what has already been said. You and Gracie are in my prayers. I hope everything turns out okay. She's such a cutie.


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## Cheryl

I am so glad that you had the tests done. As other's have said, it may turn out to be fine. If it turns out that the bile acids are elevated, I will try to help you through this. I learned a lot when we went through it just a few months ago. You and Gracie are in my prayers. Let me know if there are any questions you have.


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## Lynn

Sorry to hear the news....hopefully it won't be too serious and it was caught before it turned into something real bad. 

Putting Gracie in my prayers:angel:


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## CinnCinn

We're sending positive thoughts your way! Get well Gracie!!


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## good buddy

I'm sure this is scary for you! Hopefully the bile acid test results show it isn't a shunt after all. Let us know what you find out. We're all pulling for your Gracie.


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## Guest

Karen,

My prayers are with you! I hope all things work for good..! :angel:


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## judith

our thoughts and prayers are with you and gracie, we hope for the best.


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## mellowbo

Karen,
My prayers are with you and Gracie. Just to let you know I went through the same thing with Lulu. Her first bile acid test was not normal but the next one was perfect! I am glad your vet tested her before the spay. 
We will all be waiting for her test results and sending good vibes your way!!! 
Carole


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## havanesebyha

Karen, I know the wait is long and Gracie is your darling baby. My thoughts and prayers are with you and Gracie. Please keep us posted.


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## Laurief

Kisses and hugs to you and Gracie for a good outcome!! We are all thinking aobut you guys.


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## Judy A

We will think positive thoughts and send prayers your way for Gracie.....I can only imagine what you are going through as I understand the love you feel for your little girl.


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## JanB

Best wishes for Gracie and prayers for perfect tests results!


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## Moko

But even with the worry and sadness, who wouldn't do it all over again, just because we love them so?


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## irnfit

Good thoughts to you and Gracie.


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## casperkeep

Wondering if there is any news this morning....hugs to you!!


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## rockluvr

Hello all,
I too am checking in to see if Karen got the news this morning about the test results. One thing I am confused about and hope that those that are more knowledgable can help me and Karen understand this better. How can a dog appear to be so happy and healthy and have this problem? In other words I don't think there have been any symptoms other than Gracie has always been on the small side. Roxie (Gracie's sister) and I see Gracie every week at puppy school. She couldn't be more playful, happy, and healthy appearing. You should see how excited Roxie and Gracie are to see each other - especially Gracie - she just LOVES her "big" sister.


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## Posh's Mom

so sad to hear this. posh is on the little side and her blood panel was normal before her spay, i think now i will have her do the fasting bile test as well...

this place is wonderful. our thoughts are with you karen.


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## Lina

rockluvr said:


> Hello all,
> I too am checking in to see if Karen got the news this morning about the test results. One thing I am confused about and hope that those that are more knowledgable can help me and Karen understand this better. How can a dog appear to be so happy and healthy and have this problem? In other words I don't think there have been any symptoms other than Gracie has always been on the small side. Roxie (Gracie's sister) and I see Gracie every week at puppy school. She couldn't be more playful, happy, and healthy appearing. You should see how excited Roxie and Gracie are to see each other - especially Gracie - she just LOVES her "big" sister.


I've already told Karen in another thread that a dog with a liver shunt can have no other symptoms at all besides the small size. It's just like when people get sick they can exhibit different symptoms and different illnesses only manifest themselves into symptoms after a long time, even though that illness might already be doing damage to the body. I got this from a veterinary source about liver shunts:



> *Some animals may not show clinical signs until they are anesthetized to be castrated or spayed. These animals may take days to recover from anesthesia, depending on what drugs were used. Other animals show no signs until they are older, when they develop bladder and kidney problems from excreting toxins and forming urine crystals and stones.*


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## rockluvr

Lina,
Thanks so much for your reply. I don't know much about this and am trying to understand it.
Diana


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## Lina

No problem Diana!


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## classeylassie

All the best for Karen our thoughts and prayers are with you and your wee girl...Take care and lets hope for the best.


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## Gracie's Mom

Thanks again for your words of support - this is such a wonderful forum!! I feel they are from the heart.

I'm not sure what to say. We don't have good news to report. Little Gracie's Bile Acid turned out with what the doctor called, "Massive Elevations, Over the Roof". Fasting it was 71.7 and should have been <7. After eating it was 99.6 and should haven been <15. They believe with numbers that high - they wouldn't produce different results if we did it again. So, we are waiting to schedule an ultrasound - hopefully in the next couple of days. We will probably go to a specialist after that. The way the numbers are so high - it probably won't be great news. The vet did say that her other organ functions look good. I guess they can begin affecting other organs if not caught. The vet said the specialist will most likely cost us "thousands". Oh yeah - on the vet scales she was 4 lbs. 4 oz. yesterday. Really tiny for 6 months!! Continue to keep our little Grace in your prayers. We have contacted our breeder. He is very concerned, and I believe will be supportive of us throughout this process.

You all have made me a believer . . . If you have absolutely ANY concerns with your "little" pups - get a bile acid test. Even if there are NO signs except being small - it STILL can mean there is something wrong. It is better to know that to not know.

Karen


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## Havtahava

Karen, I'm sorry you didn't get better news at this point. 

I'm so glad the other organ functions are looking good and that Gracie's breeder is standing by you.


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## Lina

Karen, I am so sorry about little Gracie's Bile Acid Test results. Please keep us updated on the test results. I will be sure to keep you and Gracie in my thoughts. :hug:

It's great news that no other organs have been affected! I am sure that this will be something that can be fixed either by surgery or diet. I will be hoping for the best.


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## juliav

Karen,

I am so sorry that the news ish't better, but it's great that you will have an ultra sound in a few days. It will shed new light on the situation and you should know if it's liver shunt or some other condition.

You and little Gracie are in our thoughts.


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## SMARTY

karen, I am so sorry the news was not better. Please read the new thread entitled "Please Read". I don't know if this doctor can be any help but it may be worth checking into. Keep us posted we are there for you.


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## Poornima

Karen, I am so sorry that the news wasn't better. You and Gracie are in our thoughts.


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## Jan D

Thinking of you and Gracie and hoping you'll hear good news soon!

Jan


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## ama0722

I am sorry we didn't get the news we all wanted to hear but I am glad you are getting it looked at before you notice something is really wrong. My friend didn't know anything was wrong with her yorkie pup until she saw the blood in the urine. But other than that Bonnie was totally healthy- actually annoying, she was chewing up everything and getting into everything she wasn't suppose to like a normal healthy crazy puppy. 

Amanda


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## whitBmom

Karen I am sorry about the results, but I am keeping both you and Gracie in my thoughts and prayers. I agree with you that it is better to know than to try to ignore anything. And you are very courageous and good mommy for taking a proactive approach. Gracie is blessed to be with such a loving mommy. I am sending good vibes so that Gracie feels better very soon.


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## mckennasedona

Karen,
I'm sorry that Gracie's results were not the best. I hope the ultrasound will bring some better news that perhaps it is something that can be helped with surgery or diet. Keeping you both in our thoughts.


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## Leslie

My thoughts and prayers continue to be with you and little Gracie.


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## Laurief

Karen, 
What can I say that has not already been said? I am so sorry that the news was not good. We will keep you and Gracie in our prayers.

You might want to check with Linda (Lfung) as her Bella had a shunt and had the surgery - she is great now & just a little stinker of only 5 lbs. She might have some insight as to what to look for. 

Good luck to you and keep us up to date.

Laurie


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## marjrc

Karen, you are going through the same thing I am now. Crazy. Ricky's bile acid test, done late Jan. also read 99 after 2 hrs. Same as Gracie's. Since he's already had the ultrasound and nothing abnormal was seen (this was early Dec.), they now want to do exploratory surgery and a biopsy. I'm not so sure.... It scares me so I've been putting off speaking directly to the specialist. 

It's tough, but like Ricky, your little Gracie is full of energy and pep. They aren't sickly at all, which makes things a bit easier to digest. It may be nothing more than a bacterial thing so let's stay hopeful. It can't be a size thing either, cuz Ricky is a large 16-lbs. Who knows? Hang in there, Karen! I am very interested in what happens over the next little while. ((hugs))


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## Missy

Karen, I will continue to keep you and Gracie in my thoughts and prayers... Please keep us posted. I am glad your breeder is being supportive.


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## Gracie's Mom

Marj - I haven't read your entire thread the length intimidated me. I might just have to slowly make it through. Has Ricky seen a specialist? I appreciate your insight.

Edit - Just reread your entry. My question was already answered. Sorry. What has stopped you from going to a specialist? Is it because they didn't find anything? It is very pricey from what I have been told. I'm sure with as long as you have had to deal with this - you are ready for it to end.

Karen


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## Brady's mom

Oh Karen, I am so sorry you are going through this. I had the same thought as Laurie and I actually called Linda (Lfung5) this afternoon and asked her to read this thread so she could try to offer some insight. She said she is slammed with work but will reach out to you in the next few days. I will continue keeping you and Gracie in my thoughts.


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## Thumper

Karen, I'm so sorry the news isn't good  I hope there is a treatment and/or diet to control this. Atleast she is acting normal and has playful energy! That is definately a good sign. 

We will keep her in our prayers!!!! :kiss:

Kara


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## Leeann

Oh Karen I am so sorry the test results did not come back good, we will continue to keep you and Gracie in our prayers.


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## casperkeep

so sorry to hear this.....hugs to you and your family!!


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## Tritia

keeping you in my thoughts..


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## Julie

Sorry to read your news was disappointing on Gracie's tests. Our thoughts are with you and Gracie. She sure sounds extra tiny to me---wow only 4 lbs. Quincy was bigger then that at 4 mo. old. Sounds like she found the right home with you.:hug:


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## MaddiesMom

Karen- I'm so sorry to hear about Gracie's test results. I'm sure your head is swimming right now. I am going to PM you some info on liver dog support groups, as I joined them when I was dealing with my prior Havanese's liver problems.

If I could say just one thing to those of you who have smaller dogs or dogs you suspect might have a problem....*PLEASE* get them tested.  We spend $100 or more on toys, but forget about what's really important....their health. Maybe its fear that keeps us from doing it, but if you do find out about a health problem early, then treatment can really help make a difference in life expectancy. I didn't find out about my Panda's liver ailment until later in life, and by then it was too late to do anything. Personally, having gone through unbearable heartbreak with Panda, I will never have a Hav that hasn't had these tests. *DO NOT* think that just because your dog is active and seemingly healthy that a liver ailment isn't present. My Panda acted totally normal (except for drinking excessive water) until 2 months before her death. Even the water drinking was only 5 months prior.

Karen- You've really done a great service in reminding people to get their dogs tested, especially if they are small. Its a "win-win" situation. If the blood and bile acid test is normal, then you have peace of mind. If not, then you get an early start on treatment. Karen, we're all hoping Gracie's condition is treatable, and many here have Havs that have had very successful outcomes through diet and/or surgery. The good news is you have a great head start. You and Gracie are in our prayers. :hug:


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## marjrc

Karen, you will get great advice from Jeanne and Cheryl, as they have been through this and more. They told me about the canineliverhealth group and I am grateful for their help. 

We aren't yet sure what Gracie's problem is, nor how bad, so there is hope it's nothing much and will be easily treatable with a round of antibiotics and/or supplements. 

To try and be brief, I had to bring Ricky in to the ER suddenly, early Nov., when he woke us up panting and not wanting to move. He had a high fever and ALT was 1200 so they kept him overnight. The ALT rose to 1800, then down to around 800 the next day and he felt much better. Fever was down and he was eating so we brought him home. Since then, he has had no symptoms of any liver problems (ie, he eats well, runs, plays, poops, sleeps .... all o.k.), but he's been tested regularly, had a liver ultrasound and needle aspiration (showed no abnormalities), was on antibiotics for 6 weeks (finished those) and on Denosyl for the past 2.5 months. I changed his food from Orijen (a no-grain, high protein) to Fromm's Chicken a la Veg and also give toppers such as cooked chicken, beef, cottage cheese, egg, sweet potatoes.... 

His latest blood test for ALT showed him at 500 still and we had a bile acid test done and he was 99, 2 hrs. after he was fed.

We don't know how this all came about as I would swear Ricky didn't
get into anything toxic. 

So...... the specialist wants to do a liver biopsy and explore
while they're at it. I'm hesitant simply because I don't like the idea of putting
Ricky under, and I'm not sure it's necessary. Is it? What can they find
that they couldn't find with the ultrasound and bloodtests? What bothers me,
is that everytime Ricky eats, it seems his liver reacts strongly ( or that's what the acid bile test shows us). Is this
causing damage to his liver while I sit here pondering? He is still taking
Denosyl (225mg - which I think is too high...... he weighs 16 lbs.) and I
bought Milk Thistle as a tincture, but realize I should probably get
caspules, right, and place them in his mouth like I do his other pill? I gave
him the tincture once and he hated it! lol

I don't mean for there to be a discussion about Ricky's story here, since we are concerned for you and Gracie, but wanted to share a bit of what I've been going through. The more I sit and think, is this making things worse for Ricky? Guess we are in this one together, hon!


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## maryam187

Karen, I'm bummed to read about the news, I was hoping for better ones  Will keep praying for her and your family. I'm glad to hear your breeder is involved and hope he'll also support you financially.


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## Leslie

Karen~ Definitely listen to Jeanne and Cheryl's advice. The advice they gave when I was dealing with my baby Shadow's illness was invaluable. They know exactly what they're talking about.

My heart aches for you. I've been in your shoes and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. Be certain I will be keeping you and your precious Gracie in my prayers :hug:


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## Leslie

marjrc said:


> So...... the specialist wants to do a liver biopsy and explore
> while they're at it. I'm hesitant simply because I don't like the idea of putting
> Ricky under, and I'm not sure it's necessary. Is it? *What can they find
> that they couldn't find with the ultrasound and bloodtests?* What


Marj~ The only way to know if it's MVD is for them to perform a biopsy. This is what we finally had to have done for Shadow. It's also how we discovered her liver was only 60% of normal size.

If you are at all contemplating having it done, I would recommend allowing them to do it when Ricky is strong and seems healthy. I'm sure you remember how weak and sick Shadow was when she had it done. Had she been stronger, perhaps, she'd still be here with us.


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## Cheryl

Good advice Leslee!!

Karen--my heart goes out to you. You mentioned the $thousands that a specialist would charge and I just pulled out my itemized bill. The vet charged me $65 to do the biopsy while doing the spay and the lab charged $225 to run the biopsy. If the ultrasound shows a shunt, the repair can be done at the same time as the spay--saving a lot of money. There is a dye exam that traces blood through the liver that probably adds money to the bill. Our specialist allowed us to skip this because we were following up with a biopsy--which is the gold standard to determine diagnosis. 

The ultrasound can sometimes provide clues into the size of the liver and the presence of a shunt, but this is highly reliable upon the skill of the technician reading it. Biopsies are always read by physicians/vets or are specialized in reading the results.

Now lets discuss the significance of an elevated bile acid test. Bile acids are produced by the liver. They help in the digestion and absorption of fats. (That is why we worry about small dogs) When the dog eats a high fat meal more bile acids are produced to digest and absorbed that fat. After they have done their job they are reabsorbed by the liver. If there is liver damage, some of the bile acids will reamin in the blood--thus causing an elevated result.


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## Cheryl

There are 2 types of shunts: congenital and acquired. With a liver shunt, the post bile acid levels are elevated above 100. In 95% of cases the pre meal bile acid test are elevated also. Good news: surgery is over 85% effective and the dogs live a long normal life. The water gets a little more muddied with MVD--but knowing the diagnosis can help a dog also live a long life.


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## Lynn

This is sad....all too sad. I hope little Gracie will be OK. You have so much support and good advice here, you are very fortunate for that.

I will put you and Gracie in my prayers.


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## Me&2Girls

Cheryl, thanks for explaining everything.


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## MaddiesMom

Gracie's Mom said:


> The vet said the specialist will most likely cost us "thousands". .
> Karen


Well, the good news is that Panda's liver specialist charged us $100 for the consult. Her office visits were higher than the vets, but not exhorbitant. Plus, she did alot of advice on the phone when she checked on Panda's condition. The more expensive part was the ultrasound, biopsy and meds. However, Panda, because she was so sick had to have her meds prepared at a human pharmacy where they could give me everything in liquid form and beef or chicken flavored so I could get them down her. That was ridiculously expensive. Gracie sounds like she's acting normal, so you probably would give any meds in a much cheaper form. So try not to worry about that expense. Plus, Gracie may not need meds or surgery, depending on her diagnosis. Cheryl had some great info on the types of shunts and what the tests can show. Just remember that there are so many success stories on this Forum alone. Thank goodness you found out early so that a good diagnosis can be made and the best treatment begun.:hug:


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## Gracie's Mom

You guys are so awesome. I love hearing from those with this experience. Thanks so much - Leslie, Jeanne, Cheryl, and Marj. Linda has also PM'd me with great info. I cannot tell you how much it is appreciated. I'm so sad to hear the Shadow and Panda didn't have great outcomes. I know that you are encouraging others to get testing so others won't experience your pain. Thanks so much for your help.

I am in a fog with all of this new learning curve. I appreciate how you explained things, Cheryl. I feel somewhat encouraged that Gracie will make it through this. I have just been imagining her not here with us and that is not a place I like to visit. Marj - we will go through this together!! I hope you get answers soon.

Gracie's ultrasound is scheduled for Monday at 2:30 (MST). It is so hard to wait when you know something is desperately wrong!!!

Karen


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## Gracie's Mom

Cheryl said:


> Karen--my heart goes out to you. You mentioned the that a specialist would charge and I just pulled out my itemized bill. The vet charged me $65 to do the biopsy while doing the spay and the lab charged $225 to run the biopsy. If the ultrasound shows a shunt, the repair can be done at the same time as the spay--saving a lot of money. There is a dye exam that traces blood through the liver that probably adds money to the bill. Our specialist allowed us to skip this because we were following up with a biopsy--which is the gold standard to determine diagnosis.


Cheryl - So far I have spent $208 for blood work alone. The ultrasound will be $310 on Monday. I don't think this will include a biopsy. Should have I asked for this to happen at the same time? I'm sure the "specialist" will have to order their own biopsy and ultrasound. I can hear the cash register now!!!

Karen


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## MaddiesMom

Karen- My dog had the ultrasound and needle biopsy done at the same time. The ultrasound was used to guide the biopsy plus it showed the size of the liver. Perhaps since Gracie hasn't been spayed, she can have an "open" biopsy at that time which can give a more definitive diagnosis. Sometimes the needle biopsy misses the affected part of the liver. I believe Cheryl's Roxie had the open biopsy at time of spay. Cheryl can give you good advice in this area.


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## Gracie's Mom

Do they have to be under anesthesia before they will do a biopsy? If so - our vet said she won't EVER touch Gracie under anesthesia because it is too risky. I will have to always to any type of surgery, teeth cleaning, etc. at a specialist. I'm guessing if they do require anesthesia that she will only be getting an ultrasound.

Karen


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## Cheryl

Just so you know, I did not have a basic blood panel done at the point of screening--just the bile acids. I do not recall the price of these tests but if it is important to somebody I will look them up.

I had the ultrasound done at the specialist (UC Davis) a long with a urine test and additional blood work--my breeder payed this bill. Not only did she tell me that she would pay this, she sat there at the visit with me for the entire time. 

I personally would not be opposed to you skipping the ultrasound because the results are based on the technician reading it, if you are willing to see if your vet woill do the biopsy with the spay. The con of this approach is if the shunt is visible on ultrasound, it could be repaired with the spay. I believe a vet needs to see where the shunt is on ultrasound to actually repair it surgically. But these are questions to ask. 

Keep asking! I am here for you. As a RN with 27 years of experience and some inside info on this subject, I want to help.


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## Cheryl

The ultrasound does not require anesthesia--just a shaving of the belly/chest.


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## Gracie's Mom

My vet won't even spay Gracie. She said she would hope the specialist would do it when she has shunt surgery. (I think she assuming that it going to require surgery based upon her test results).

Thanks, Cheryl!!

Karen


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## Cheryl

A part of me is sad that I have caused you this anxiety, but I believe that I have saved your dog's life because I was pretty insistent that you followed through with her size. Keep going!!! You can end up with good results!!


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## Cheryl

My specialist was willing to do the biopsy with the spay, but she knew my vet could also do the same. The price would not be different (I live in CA--high prices) but it was not as convienient at my specialist (90 minutes away) as my vet. My breeder lives close to the specialist and was fabulous in supporting us throught the process.


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## Gracie's Mom

Cheryl - I should have listened to you a little more. I didn't schedule to have the Bile Acid testing before I scheduled her spay. I regret that, for sure!!! I should have listened to you. I thought I just "knew" it couldn't be, but you were right. Thank God the blood showed something drastically wrong. Now, I'll be joining your passion in pressuring people into Bile Acids when they even remotely suspect something could be wrong. Thanks for pushing me, but I wish I would have taken it to heart when you said it. Though, I'm thankful that we only delayed this by 1 day. Wow - we are so lucky with her. As bad as it is - I KNOW that it could be worse. She could be much older.

Karen


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## Gracie's Mom

Shaving of belly AND CHEST?? Ahhhh - how far up will they shave??? This is going to break my heart already.

Karen


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## Cheryl

It is really just the belly--up to the rib cage. This is minor and we will see you through this!


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## marjrc

Leslie wrote:* "Marj~ The only way to know if it's MVD is for them to perform a biopsy. This is what we finally had to have done for Shadow. It's also how we discovered her liver was only 60% of normal size.

If you are at all contemplating having it done, I would recommend allowing them to do it when Ricky is strong and seems healthy. I'm sure you remember how weak and sick Shadow was when she had it done. Had she been stronger, perhaps, she'd still be here with us."*

I wrote with this question I have about getting the biopsy done, to the Canine liver health yahoo group and I was encouraged to get another set of liver enzyme tests done. It's been over a month, so on Monday, I'm going to ask my vet to test his ALT again, maybe check Ricky's white blood cell count, see how things are at this time. If level is still quite high, then I'll call the specialist for sure and schedule the biopsy.

You are right, that it's as good a time as any should it be necessary. Ricky seems strong and healthy now. I agree, that waiting until he gets sicker, should that happen, won't be helping him.


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## Amy R.

Karen, we are all rooting for you and sweet Gracie. I'm in love with that darling face. I'm sorry you have to weather this ordeal. I have been there (with my human family more than once) , and am sending you hugs, strength, and positive thoughts. Just take it one day at a time. . .


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## JanB

I'm sorry the results were not good. You and little Gracie will be in my prayers.


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## Diana

Karen-
I just read through this thread and I am so sorry you are going through this! You and Gracie are in my thoughts and prayers.


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## Me&2Girls

Cheryl you are an inspiration of support - thanks for being here for everyone. Big prayers for little Gracie on Monday.


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## Missy

I will be thinking of you and Gracie on Monday!!!


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## marjrc

I got this from the Canine Liver Health group and thought it might be helpful to some...

The following is about Antibiotic Therapy for treating liver disease. 
But it does NOT mention the possible adverse 
side effects that *Flagyl *can have on the liver, and we know this is 
true. So not sure how helpful it is other than showing what 
antibiotics are most often prescribed for dogs with known liver 
disease.

http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00430.htm

"*Antibiotics*

Antibiotic therapy is indicated for treatment of suppurative 
hepatitis, cholangiohepatitis and hepatic encephalopathy, and 
prevention of septicemia. The bactericidal function of the hepatic 
reticuloendothelial (RE) system may be compromised in hepatic 
disease, especially if hepatic blood flow or oxygen tension is 
altered, resulting in septicemia.

In hepatic bacterial 
encephalopathy, antibiotics are used to help reduce colonic bacterial 
numbers in an effort to decrease ammonia formation. Cholangitis has 
several causes, including bacterial invasion, which warrants 
antibiotic therapy. The regimen may be modified in accordance with 
specific information obtained from cultures of bile, hepatic tissue 
or blood. In cases of compromised hepatic RE function (e.g. hepatitis 
from any cause, septicemia) the antibiotics selected generally are 
directed against intestinal organisms.

Antibiotics routinely used in treatment of patients with liver 
disease include penicillins (ampicillin 10 mg/lb TID, amoxicillin 10 
mg/lb BID), cephalexin (Keflex, Dista) 10 mg/lb TID, enrofloxacin 
(Baytril) 1.2 - 2.3 mg/lb BID, and metronidazole (Flagyl, Searle) 5- 10 mg/lb BID. 
Chloramphenicol and tetracycline are alternative 
choices that are effectively excreted in the bile, however, 
tetracycline is potentially hepatotoxic. Although high hepatic tissue 
levels are reached with chloramphenicol, the plasma half-life can be 
prolonged and toxicity may occur in patients with liver disease.

Metronidazole is highly active against Bacteroides and other 
anaerobes that exist in high numbers in the colon. Bacteriologic 
studies have suggested that gram-negative anaerobes are major 
generators of ammonia from peptides. Metronidazole's effectiveness 
against these bacteria could help reduce production of endogenous 
ammonia, thus benefiting patients with hepatic encephalopathy. It may 
also be useful in treatment of any liver disorder complicated by 
inability of the hepatic RE system to clear bacteria absorbed through 
the portal circulation.

The combination of metronidazole and an 
aminoglycoside may be superior for this purpose. Metronidazole may 
also be useful in treatment of some chronic inflammatory conditions 
because it helps reduce cell-mediated immune responses. I sometimes 
use metronidazole for 2-6 months or longer, in conjunction with 
maintenance levels of corticosteroids, for liver disease patients 
that may have both a bacterial and inflammatory component, or that 
are unable to tolerate required dosage levels of corticosteroids used 
alone to control the disease. Metronidazole is my routine drug of 
choice for chronic administration in hepatic encephalopathy patients. 
It can be used safely in combination with other antibiotics.

*Antibiotics that should be avoided in treatment of liver disease *
include chloramphenicol, lincomycin, sulfonamides, erythromycin, and 
hetacillin. These drugs are either inactivated by the liver, require 
hepatic metabolism, or are capable of producing hepatic damage.

If septicemia or peritonitis occurs in conjunction with liver disease 
gentamicin 1 mg/lb TID IM or SC is administered for 5-7 days (while 
monitoring renal function carefully) in conjunction with cephalothin 
(Keflin, Lilly) at 10 mg/lb TID IV or cefoxitin (Mefoxin) at 10 mg/lb 
TID to QID IV for broad-spectrum coverage while awaiting culture and 
sensitivity results. If an anaerobic organism is identified on 
culture the antibiotics most likely to be effective include 
penicillin G 10,000 u/lb every 4-6 hours IV, metronidazole, or 
clindamycin 2.5-5 mg/lb BID PO."

[end quote]

http://www.dcavm.org/05sep.html

http://www.petplace.com/drug-library/cephalexin-keflex/page1.aspx


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## Cheryl

For those who are interested, there is an interview with Dr. Sharon Center on the genetic links of Shunts and MVD at this site:
http://www.myyuppypuppy.com/rosysmemorialfund.html


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## MaddiesMom

Karen- The good news is that if Gracie does have a shunt, the odds are that it is extrahepatic (outside the liver). Most toy dogs have this type of shunt. The ones outside the liver are the easiest to treat with the best prognosis. Surgery can tie off the shunt and the dog can live a normal life. Keep positive thoughts. You absolutely did the right thing in having Gracie's bile acid and blood test. You are a great Mom! :hug:


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## Gracie's Mom

Please allow me to cry!!!! I have a question . . . since all of this has been addressed, I've been noticing that Gracie has been drinking quite a bit. I didn't really pay much attention to it before. Also - her pee has a stronger oder than it did a few weeks ago. She is potty trained and likes to go on her pee pad. She also goes outside, but when we are not there to take her outside - she uses her pad. That's how I noticed. Could this be related to liver problems? Also - her eyes water quite a bit. She does get that black goopy gunk, but her face is more wet than it was before with her eyes. She has quite a few baby teeth to lose still . . . could it be that or could it be related to the liver problems? 

I have been worried sick the last couple of days. I don't know how many "thousands" we are going to be able to afford to put her through this. I mean - with the purchase of her, all the equipment we had to buy her, her regular vet bills, then possible surgery (probably at least $3,500), etc. If it happens, we will have spent more than $6,000 in less than 5 months of getting her. Then, who knows what type of upkeep it will cost with vitamins, medications or specialty doctor visits? She is the sweetest puppy ever, and you all know I love her so much. How much do I put our family in hardship over this? We are definitely doing an ultrasound and going to consult visit with a specialist to see where we are at. I don't like looking at money issues when we are looking at that sweet little face of hers. Should we would return her to our breeder if we decide surgery is not an option for us financially? I just want her to have a chance at life. Her welfare is more important than us being with her forever. I'm just dying inside - tear streaming. I don't cry easily, but this is crushing me!! Our entire family is in love with this sweet little puppy!! We want to keep her!!! Yes, we said we would take care of her forever and we want to, but wow - how can we make this happen? We didn't know we would be faced with huge medical bills with her. We have two kids and they also need us and they need college. This can't be happening to us!!! I don't need to get into it - but our family has been hit with a series of pretty bad luck - one right after the next. Otherwise this may have been a little easier on us. I just need to vent and cry!! So sorry - I'm not sure who really cares to listen except this forum that understands and loves their little furbabies as much as me. I'm sure many people would think I'm crazy. How can a person love their pets THAT much??? I'm crazy like the rest of you I guess. 

Here are a couple pictures taken of her last Wednesday after a bath. How can you look at that sweet little face and tell her that you just can't help her? Somehow we've got to do it for her. We will, I just don't know how. She is OUR puppy - very much a part of our family!! I will fight for her!!

Karen :Cry: :Cry: :Cry:


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## Tom King

Sorry for your troubles with your baby. I have no experience with shunts but the eye goop could quite easily be tied to the teething and will pass as soon as she's over that stage. I haven't read the entire big thread but just logged on and saw that your post was the last so I checked in.

Breeders need to take responsibility in these things too.


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## Jill in Mich

Oh Karen,

My heart goes out to you. You're right, she's absolutely adorable! What a cute little face. 

It's not fair to have to be making the decisions you may be faced with. I know it's hard not to, but try not to get too far ahead of yourself. You don't know exactly what you're facing yet, right? When it's time, you'll make the right decisions (whatever they are), just trust in yourself. Until then, there's very little you can do (which is probably the hardest part.) 

And while I've not been in this forum for very long, it doesn't take long to see the wonderful support provided by everyone, especially in time of crisis. It's pretty safe to say that everyone completely understands how you feel.


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## Havtahava

Yes, teething does increase tearing.

Karen, it sounds like it is time to ask yourself some tough questions as you get your test results. They are tough questions, but I agree with Tom that your breeder needs to bear some responsibility too. Granted, I have no idea who your breeder is and I am sure that the breeder was not aware of the potential problems, but this is what comes with the territory of breeding dogs. I am so sorry for the stress and worry that you are feeling now.


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## Cheryl

Gracie is stunning!! I PM'd you. Hang in there!


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## Cheryl

Karen--I forgot to ask--have you checked out http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Liver_Shunt_And_MVD_Support/ ? It will give you much more ino than I can provide.


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## juliav

Karen,

I am so sorry, I am crying right along with you. Gracie is an aodrable little girl and I can understand that you are trying your hardest to do right by her. I understand your dilemma, how do you choose between this wonderful puppy and your kids....sigh. How about your breeder, is she willing to refund your money so you can use it towarad Gracie's medical bills??


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## MaddiesMom

Oh my gosh, Karen. Gracie is just adorable. I feel so bad that you are going through this, worrying about what might be. I do know that if it does come to shunt surgery, the prices vary greatly depending on what part of the country it is done. Do go on the liver support group sites that I PM'd you and ask about it. There are so many people who have faced the exact same things, and they are so helpful and supportive. 

Gracie's breeder needs to be part of this. The breeder should not breed Gracie's parents again. Plus, I would think that she might help you with some of the cost. Also, I would think many centers could set up a payment plan for surgery. But your decisions, whatever they might be, will have to be what's best for you, Gracie, and your family. Don't jump the gun, though, and expect the worst. 

As far as moist eyes, I doubt that's from liver problems. Excessive thirst often is a sign, but again, that would be corrected if/when a shunt is fixed. DO NOT think that Gracie is in the same condition as my Panda was. Panda was 8 years old and probably had her liver condition for years, undiagnosed.

As Cheryl has said, hang in there. We have so many success stories here from Havanese owners who were absolutely panicked. We're here for you.:hug:


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## Guest

Karen,

My prayers are with you and your family during this hardship. I can totally understand your worries and frustrations. I myself, would love...LOVE...a Havanese, (we don't have one yet), but I too am concerned of the extra expenses that may be involved in the 'worst case scenerio's' due to health of the breed itself that was 'silent or unknown at purchase'...that may make or break us even purchasing one. The initial expense is a lot of money to us...and I can't honestly say that we could afford another huge expense if it was to happen to us. All the thoughts you have going on in your head, would be in mine too! I know I would do what I could and I am sure you would do the same.

Hopefully after the testing/ultrasound...if their is something that needs medical assistance, contact your breeder and see what they have to say...you can't really go forwards without contacting them first to see how helpful they will/can be. Plus they would want to know and most of the breeders (good ones) still feel the pups are always a part of the family and would be willing to help in any way they can.

Keep moving forward, try to get some sleep, enjoy your family, keep busy and try not to worry (more than you have) until you get results back.

If you need to vent, cry or anything, just PM me. I would totally be in your same thought wave if this was happening to us.

Take care & big hugs,
Kristy


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## MaddiesMom

Karen- Check your PM's. I have some info on someone with great knowledge who has offered to help you through this.....


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## Amy R.

Karen, please feel free to vent at anytime. We are all here for you, truly. All of your concerns are understandable, and so well expressed. We all feel that way about our dogs, too. It is an amazing, inexplicable bond! 

While it is good to mentally prepare yourself for worst case scenarios and tough decisions, including financial, which may lie ahead, having done that in a general way, I recommend you try to take it one day/or step at a time and not catastrophize too much. Because it will simply drain your energy and ability to cope/reason . And do notify the breeder and insist they assume some financial responsibility. . . best of luck and keep us updated. Sending hugs from California. xoxo


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## Gracie's Mom

Thanks so much for all of your kind words. They mean so very much right now - you cannot imagine. You are all very kind. I knew all of you would understand my concerns. I am trying very hard to take one step at a time. But I'm a planner and I just can't "plan" through this - so my mind is always asking "What if . . ." My concerns have been helped tremendously with those of you with experience, and I don't know what I would do without you. I have just opened my "accounts" with the liver shunt support groups that Cheryl and Jeanne have recommended and can't wait to get started with research, asking questions, etc. I know that my days of this process could be lengthy, and I appreciate all of you. This is a great place!! You all bring me up when I'm down. Thanks!

I appreciate your concerns about my breeder. I have contacted them. They are wonderful people. They have treated us with such care since the day we first made contact before Little Gracie was born. They are taking the Mom & Dad in on Monday for their test. They had no idea their dogs may have been a carrier of the gene or whatever it is that passes it along. They are responsible. They have told me they will do whatever they can to help, and I know they will make it right with us. No worries there, but I also don't want to make it difficult for them. I do believe they will be fair about this. That is their character. I am not going to say anything bad against them as they have NEVER given me one reason to. I know there are some breeders that have not supported people with these types of issue - I know ours does not fit into that category. I'm so glad you all push for good breeders - I'm finding out the reason for it now. 

Karen


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## Suuske747

Karen, I completely understand your dillemma's.... I wish you strength and sense when having to make decisions so heartbreaking..... But just try to take it one step a time.... don't let yourself get swept away in panic and heartbreak, it might just give you more stress than you already have in this awfull moment of insecurities and worries about Gracie...
My thoughts are with you!


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## Laurief

Karen, I wish we could give you more supoort than just our words and encouragements. Gracie is such a beautiful girl, but I keep thinking bout Bella, she is great now, so we will all pray that the outcome is as good as hers. I am crying right along with you, as I am sure every decision you make his a difficult one. Please let us know what the ultrasound results are.


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## Leslie

Karen~ It was just 8 months ago I was walking in your shoes, dealing with the exact thoughts and feelings you are now. I can tell you that the support I received from these wonderful people here is the reason I didn't go totally insane when I had to make the tough decisions. Listen to them, they are very wise. I know how scared you are, I was terrified at what could/would happen to little Shadow and wondering all the time how I could possibly pay for what she needed. I know how easy it is to let your mind and emotions go to the very worst place. Try to hold back. Wait until the ultrasound is done and you have more information. 

Please PM me, if you'd like. I want to help you in any way I can. 

Huge, huge hugs :hug:


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## Missy

Karen, we are all here crying right with you. I know it seems insurmountable now-- but the best advice here is take it one step at a time. Little Gracie is truly gorgeous. It is great your breeder is supportive. Lean on us all you want. When ever we hear stories like yours, we all know it could be any one of our pups and we take it seriously. Hugs from me and wet kisses from the boys. Give Gracie a belly run from me.


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## mintchip

Missy said:


> Karen, we are all here crying right with you. I know it seems insurmountable now-- but the best advice here is take it one step at a time. Little Gracie is truly gorgeous. It is great your breeder is supportive. Lean on us all you want. When ever we hear stories like yours, we all know it could be any one of our pups and we take it seriously. Hugs from me and wet kisses from the boys. Give Gracie a belly run from me.


:grouphug::grouphug: I agree with you Missy!! We are here for you Karen!:grouphug::grouphug:


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## Lina

Karen, I can completely understand what you are feeling with Gracie and I just want to reiterate that we're all here for you. She really is a doll and I do think that you just need to take it one step at a time and wait for each test result before freaking out too much. Please feel free to come on here to vent and share your feelings. :grouphug:


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## KristinFusco

Karen I am so sorry to hear about poor little Gracie. She is lucky to have you as such a conscientious and loving owner. My grandmother and grandfather went through a similar situation with their beloved little maltese Jeter, and he recovered beautifully from his liver shunt surgery and lives a happy, normal life. I hope that in a few months' time that is the case for you as well.

:grouphug:


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## mckennasedona

Karen,
I'm so sorry for everything you are going through with Gracie. She is adorable. I agree with the others. Take it one step at at time. Planning ahead is good but try not to automatically assume the worst. Wait for the ultrasound to give you more information. Perhaps your specialist can set up a payment plan for you if it comes to that. Many will. It's wonderful that you have breeders who will stand behind their pup. 
We're all here for you. 
Sending hugs!!


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## pjewel

Karen,

I sit here too crying right along with you. These are tough decisions, but just maybe it won't be as bad as you're setting yourself up for. I agree that your breeder needs to be involved and I'm glad that you have faith in them and their integrity.

As I look down at Milo, pawing me to get up in my lap at the moment, I can't even imagine the pain and fear. Let's take it one step at a time and see what Monday brings. Sinding loving thoughts to you and healing vibes to sweet, beautiful Gracie.


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## Havtahava

Karen, I'm so glad you have a great support network around you. Please feel free to use us as much as you need. We all feel the weight of your worry with you.

When Leslie went through a similar situation, it was amazing to see the network of the forum come together. I think I can speak for others when I say that many of us hope for manageable results for dear Gracie.


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## Cosmosmom

I agree that you need to take it one step at a time and wait for the results of the ultrasound .. 
Just try and be as positive abd brave as you can be right now for the sake of your little one .. These little doggies are so sensitive and she can pick up on your energy and your distress .. 
We are here to help in any way that we can .. Once you have the latest information and a firm diagnosis you can post it and relay it to us we can offer suggestions and our support ..
Remember support comes in many ways so for now try to dry your tears and be optomistic 
I have walked in your shoes and I know how devastating and stressful it can be . 
For now be like Scarlett Ohara and just focus on the positives and think about the rest tomorrow .. 
Take care - we are here for you ..


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## mellowbo

Oh Karen, I too am crying. I know how hard this is. Please listen to all the good advise and follow your heart. The money concerns are real. If Gracie needs surgery hopefully the breeder will apply the purchase price toward your bills.
Whatever the outcome and whatever your decisions are we will all support you with no judgment attached.
Carole
xxoox


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## casperkeep

My heart goes out to you and little Gracie!!! This morning in church I prayed for all my forum friends and for little Gracie as well. I will pray that you will be strong and positive until you have the results..I hope this makes sence!!! Hugs to you and a belly rub to Gracie!!!!


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## havanesebyha

Sending prayers and good thoughts for little Gracie tomorrow with her ultrasound. Hugs and kisses to you and Gracie. :grouphug::kiss:


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## Laurief

Best of Luck today for Gracie at the doctors. Please let us know how you make out!!


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## Missy

sending good thoughts to you and Gracie today a the doctors.


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## Leslie

Thinking of and praying for you and Gracie today :hug::kiss:


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## juliav

Best of luck to little Gracie and you at the doctor's today. 
Sending positive thoughts for good test results and lots of puppy kisses.


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## mintchip

:grouphug:Best wishes for today and always!!!:grouphug:


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## mckennasedona

Gracie will be in my thoughts today. Please let us know how things go.


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## ama0722

<hugs> to you and Gracie this morning. We are all hoping for some good results.

Amanda


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## Thumper

Karen,

I'm SO sad and your struggle is just heartbreaking. Don't feel guilty about worrying about the financial aspect..that is real and I know its hard to just not know what the future holds and if these treatments will guarantee anything. I think you have to take a step back and just take it ONE day at time. I know that is easier said than done, because, like you...I am a 'planner', but some things just cannot be planned when you are facing so many question that need to be answered.

I know I would be crushed if I was facing this, gosh...I panic taking my girl for shots  I know how much Gracie means to you. She's absolutely beautiful and her spirit really shows in her pictures.

I'm glad that your breeder is standing by you and getting the parents tested also! I really commend them for that and doing everything they can to make sure it isn't being passed genetically.

And, its OK to cry. It took me a long time to learn that and I seldom shed tears, but the love that we have for these little dogs is just so powerful and pure.

hugs,
Kara


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## Gracie's Mom

Just 4.5 hours to go for the ultrasound. I hate waiting. I'm trying to come up with good solid questions to ask right now. If anyone has any - pass them along. So far I have asking about a special diet and treats. I have been to the pet store and you have to have a prescription to get a "Low Protein" diet. Also - will that be enough protein for a growing puppies? Don't they need fat?

If results don't reveal anything - it appears that they will probably schedule an "open" biopsy with a specialist and most likely spay her at that time. I'm learning bits and pieces with the new support groups. It is just so overwhelming. When you are beginning to learn something new - everything is foreign and it takes longer. It doesn't come easy remembering what every acronym means or what blood tests are done and why. This is confusing to me. I know it will come much quicker very soon. I also think it will help to do research when I have a diagnosis.

I'm thankful, Diana is going with me. Diana is Gracie's sisters' owner, Roxie. (That's confusing, I know and even more confusing to figure out how to explain). She is wonderful with questions. I think I may be glazed over during our appointment and only think of questions later. I can't believe the support I have received from everyone here. Your comforting words and encouragement help me more than you know. Gracie sure has a ton of of people pulling for her. 

:kiss: :grouphug:

Karen


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## Lina

Just letting you know that I'm thinking of you and Gracie today and I hope the vet appointment goes well! :grouphug:


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## Moko

So, so sorry you're having to go through this with your sweetie, but she will definitely be more comfortable because she knows that you're with her and you love her.

I've never been in your sad situation, so I don't think I would have a CLUE about what questions to ask.

But make sure you've written the questions down beforehand, and the person who is with you could take sketchy notes as the doctor answers so you don't mix the info up on the way home in the car!

Puppy prayers and sincere good wishes...


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## mckennasedona

Karen, It's great that you have someone going with you. Considering everything you are going through, it will help to have someone else listen to any advice or instructions right along with you. I'd take a notepad and pencil and take notes.

Good luck!!!


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## mintchip

Good luck Karen!!!:hug::hug:


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## Beamer

Goodluck Karen!


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## Cosmosmom

I agree it is best to have someone there to suport you and to advocate for you and your little one ..
When Asta was so sick my husband went with me almost every time .. He was there for him 100 percent and he was not intimidated and he would ask all the pertinent questions and the why's and why not try this .. He even followd one vet into his lab as he felt he was just being an arrogant know it all and he was not really answering the questions that were being asked . He had his speech and that was it .. 
I would definetly have questions in advance and write them down .. If you do not feel comfortable taking notes then take a small tape recorder and record what is being said .
That way you can review it when you are not as nervous and emotional and it is in the vets words .. I guess this might have to be at his disgression .. 
Our thoughts and prayers are with you today .. Give your little one a cuddle from Cosmo & Ahnold ..
We will think only positive things ..


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## marjrc

Karen, I know exactly how you feel sweetie. It is hard thinking there might be something going on inside that tiny, adorable body. Gracie is a beauty! It's a challenge finding the money for all the tests and treatments, I know. When you are raising a young family, money isnt' always readily available. Try not to feel too overwhelmed. Gracie may not need all the tests and surgeries. Maybe feeding her a special diet will suffice. Until you know more, try not to worry too much.

I am grateful you have breeders that are genuinely concerned. I don't have that. Other than a couple of emails expressing some concern, I was basically told that Ricky is 'just' a pet (won't be bred) so no need to report all his health issues. I was told the parents are just fine and have no history of liver trouble. In our case, I'm pretty sure there is no shunt issue, but it sure would be nice if his breeders offered a bit more support. The last email was two months ago and yet Ricky's problem is still unresolved. It is nice to see that you have your breeders' support.

Don't be surprised when Gracie comes back with her belly shaved. It's a bit of a shock at first. lol Please let us know as soon as you have news. We care very much about what happens and will do our best to help in any way we can. (((((hugs)))))))


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## Me&2Girls

Prayers again for Gracie today - keeping all paws crossed that it's something that can be managed and she doesn't need surgery. It's wonderful to have a breeder to stand behind their dogs. And you've got a wonderful friend. Good luck and take deep breaths.


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## MaddiesMom

Karen- We'll all be thinking of you and Gracie at her u/s appointment today. The main thing to ask is the size of the liver and whether they see any obvious shunt and the location. The technician should be able to tell you if he/she sees any other physical abnormality. That will all be in the report. We'll be sending positive thoughts your way! Hugs to you and Gracie.


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## marjrc

About the canine liver health group.... it can be overwhelming at first, but take some time to go through the docs. they have in the 'file' section. I found a liver-friendly diet there that I'm trying out this week. I wouldn't hurry to buy all that stuff just yet, because it is a lot and will take some time to prepare and try out, but you can see what others have done or are doing with conditions much the same as Gracie. 

You might see my posts in there if you get individual mail. Don't be shy about emailing. There is a lot of great help there.


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## Me&2Girls

Hi - just found a great information site for Liver shunts put out by the Yorkie breeders. It has a lot of good information. Good luck. http://www.livershunt.com/


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## JanB

Karen, thinking of you this afternoon and hoping/praying for the best. I am so glad you have someone going with you today. Many hugs and prayers!


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## Lola

I missed this whole thread!!! I am so sorry for poor little Gracie and you. I know what you must be going through. My Maggie was diagnosed with a small liver back in June. But things have worked out well for us. Wait to see what the ultra sound shows. It may be somethihng very minor that can be controlled with a special diet and medication. Be calm and ask plenty of questions. My thoughts and prayers are with you and Gracie.


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## maryam187

Karen,
just letting you know, I'm thinking of you and Gracie, you know how much I adore her. Please let us know how (hopefully well) the ultrasound results are. :hug:


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## Laurief

Karen, It is about 5pm on the east coast, and I assume you are in with the Dr. now. I sit her and hope and pray that the news is wonderful, and that meds and diet are the answer for that sweet little Gracie. Please let us all kno how she made out, and if we can do anything more!
Laurie


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## Missy

Just checking in Karen. hoping for the best.


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## mellowbo

Just stopped by to tell you my prayers are with you and Gracie.


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## juliav

Karen,

Just checking in to see if there's any news on Gracie and keeping good thoughts.


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## SMARTY

Just checking to see if there is any news on Gracie's ultrasound.


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## pjewel

I'm sitting here waiting too for the (hopefully good) news. You know you're surrounded with loving thoughts and healing vibes for Gracie. I'll be checking back all evening.


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## lfung5

Just checking in for some good news. I'll check back later.


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## maryam187

Just checking in too. Hope all went well...


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## Leeann

I'm checking in for me and Megan, her internet went down so she called to see if we had any news.

We are also sending more possative vibes.


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## ricosmom

I'm so sorry to hear about Gracie. I'm new to this site. My baby "Rico" is 5 years old. He began having seizures about 2 years ago. We have gone through many blood tests to see what was causing the seizures. To make a long story short, I just found out last week that he most likely has a liver shunt. His bile was 854, normal is below 100. I wrote everything down,but don't have it here in front of me. He also has triglycerides at 1800, normal is 291. He is on a special low fat diet and fish oil pills, niacin and can't have any treats,milkbones. I want to have him tested further, we're about an hour and a half from Purdue University in Indiana, but my husband won't pay to had the procedures done, It just breaks my heart. He is doing well though with all the problems he is facing. My prayers go out to Gracie and you. My vet says he could live for another 5 years or possibly one. We are just loving him and spoiling him for now. 
Celeste


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## Guest

Celeste,

So sorry to hear the hardships with your pup. I hope you and Rico have many years together yet. It is so hard when are 'babies' are ill. Love them like there is no tomorrow.


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## Gracie's Mom

Well . . . I got back from the ultrasound (u/s). Gracie was quite the trooper. She had 2 people holding her down plus Diana & I comforting her. She didn't fight one bit once she realized that it had to be done. She was mellow because Gracie and Roxie just had a play date of a couple of hours. She was ready to plop!! Anyway, they shaved her tummy and some of her back leg/tummy area (you can see it from the side). I'm NOT happy about that, but I guess that is relatively a non-issue right now. But poor girl!!!!! I STILL hate it!!! The news is - they didn't see anything. Her liver appeared to be of normal size - good news. They said they looked everywhere (internal and external) for a Liver Shunt (LS) and didn't see anything. Everything also checked out fine - her bladder, kidneys, adrenal glands (I thought that's what they said), etc. Nothing alarming came out of it. Though - they believe her numbers are high for a reason. So, we are still in the diagnosis phase. They said it could be Hepatitis, a copper storage problem?? (don't know what that is) or MVD. Maybe Hepatitis is what we are hoping for??? They feel she has something wrong, but just aren't sure yet. They recommend waiting a couple of weeks - retesting her blood and bile acids to see if they return to normal on their own with the help of her new diet and supplements . . . She is now on Science Diet l/d. She is also on a couple of herbal supplements to promote healing of the liver - Hepatosupport and S-Adensoyl. Since they believe they have ruled out a liver shunt - they think they can safely operate and do her spay in a few weeks and do a liver biopsy at the same time. They are working on an estimate for me right now. I should know by tomorrow what that is. She said a specialist would probably charge about $2,000 without the spay, but I think they might do it cheaper since they are just a regular vet.

From what I've learned from the Liver Shunt and MVD Support Group is that an u/s won't completely rule out a LS, but a biopsy will rule out a LS. That contradicts the doctor. They feel fairly confident that it is NOT a LS. That was my interpretation anyway of the support group. So, I'm a bit confused. But I thought the biopsy would most likey rule out the LS anyway.

I guess we have to wait and see for a couple of weeks and go from there. In the meantime, Gracie will continue to "rule" the house with her outbreak of Run Like Hecks and stealing of toys. LOL Thanks again for your encouraging words. I know you all have been pulling for her, and I have felt your support. I know we still trying to figure this out, and I wish I had more news to give you since you have all been so helpful.  And thank you, Diana, for your support today. I really appreciate your questions - you helped me more than you know. I appreciate you!! 

I will post when I learn more. I wish it were sooner than a "few" weeks!! ARGHHH!!!!! I just want to help her NOW - who has time to wait??? You guys are the best!!

Karen


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## MaddiesMom

Celeste- I'm sorry to hear about your Rico. I've PM'd a few people about support sites for dogs with liver disease. I think you'd find them a great help, as there are people there with dogs who have lived many, many years with various conditions and are happy to share information and support new members. I might as well post the sites publicly for anyone else who would like to join. The first group is for dogs with any kind of liver ailment, and the second is mainly for liver shunt and MVD. I'd suggest you join both. You'll have to set up a yahoo account, then join to see the posts. Introduce yourself and your dog's brief history there and you'll find responses come quickly.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canineliver-d/

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Liver_Shunt_And_MVD_Support/


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## MaddiesMom

Karen- We've all been waiting with baited breath. I think you have some real positive news! Her liver is of normal size, and that's great. Even if its hepatitis or MVD, that is treated by drugs/and or diet. I would think they would have seen an extrahepatic (outside the liver shunt) if she had one. In any case, give your precious baby lots of love (like I'd have to tell you that!) and get an open biopsy at the time of her spay. It shouldn't cost you much more than the spay, as the vet will be right there. You'll have pathology costs, but I think Cheryl said her vet charged $65 for the biopsy. 

I know the wait is hard, but the good news is no liver shunt seen! Yay!! Take one day at a time, and enjoy that darling little girl.


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## Leeann

Karen I am so happy the ultra sound did not show anything. Sorry you have to do more waiting, we will continue to keep you and Gracie in our prayers.


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## Havtahava

YEAH! Great news so far. I'm so glad that they found her liver to be of normal size and no obvious external shunts at this point. That's very good to read. I've been coming back all day long waiting for your news.


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## Brady's mom

Celeste, I am so sorry to hear about your Rico and his liver shunt. It sounds like he has had a wonderful 5 years with you and certainly hope he will have many many more. I hope the support groups Maddiesmom gave you can provide you with some more support and assistance through this hard time.

Karen, I am so happy to hear that everything went well today. I am so sorry you will have to wait longer to find out what is going on. It is great to hear that Gracie is acting like herself and playing. I think that is a great sign. Thanks for keeping us posted. All of these dogs on this forum feel like extended family and we all worry for them and their owners!


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## JanB

Karen, good news that so far everything seems normal and the worst has been ruled out. I know it's hard to wait but just try to focus on the good news you got today! We'll still be waiting with you and praying for the best possible outcome! :hug:

P.S. Celeste, sorry to hear about your Rico and hope he does well so you have many, many more years with him.


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## maryam187

Karen,
that sounds like good news to me. Hopefully Gracie will blossom and gain some weight within the next 2 weeks and will be strong for her spay/biopsy. Praying it's going to be a diagnosis that's treatable with a special diet!!!


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## Jill in Mich

Well that's one down with good news. I think all of the tests and waiting is the worst part!


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## Missy

Oh that is great news for you and Gracie Karen!!! we will keep her in our thoughts and prayers. What a little trooper.


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## irnfit

Great news! I know the waiting is bad, but let's all think positive thoughts for Gracie. Karen, we are all there waiting with you. :hug:


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## Cheryl

I am happy for your good news Karen. Keep us posted. 

Celeste--I am sorry for Rico and you, but will pray for the best.


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## juliav

Karen,

Great news about Gracie's liver being normal in size and no shunts. I know waiting is tough, but we are waiting right along with you and hoping for good results.


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## Leslie

Karen~ What a relief! I'm so pleased to see her liver is normal size and doesn't show an external shunt. If it does turn out to be MVD or hepatitis at least those are treatable with meds/diet. I will continue to keep you both in my thoughts and prayers. Sometimes waiting can be the worst part of it all...

Hugs to you and belly rubs for Gracie.

Celeste~ I'm so sorry to hear about your precious little Rico. I pray you wind up having many more years with him.


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## pjewel

Yay! I'm happy for the news so far. We can only hope and pray that it will continue on a positive note. Now I can go relax and get ready to call it a day. Whew!

Celeste, so sorry to hear about Rico. You have my prayers for a long life for him and much joy with him for you all.


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## Olliesmom

eace: way to go Gracie!

Rico sounds like a trooper! Prayers to both of you and your families!


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## juliav

Celeste,

I am sorry to hear about Rico and hope that you will have many more happy years together.


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## Me&2Girls

Great news about Gracie - hopefully this is something can can be managed with diet and supplements.

So sorry to hear about Rico, Celeste. From what I've heard, those yahoo groups are fabulous for liver shunts and MVD.


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## lfung5

I am glad to hear they don't think it's a shunt. Maybe it is just a freak thing. I know Carole had the same thing with Lulu. She thought it was from vaccines. Good luck with the future tests and biopsy. Give the little trooper kisses from the gang!


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## mellowbo

eace: Way to go Gracie!!!eace:
:bump2::grouphug:


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## Beamer

Great news so far! Hope it only gets better form here!

Ryan


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## Lina

Karen, I am so happy to hear the news! I hope the next results do show either hepatitis or MVD as these are both treatable without surgery. Please keep us updated on sweet Gracie's results! Kubrick sends kisses. :kiss:


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## judith

i am wishing rico and gracie the best of news.


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## havanesebyha

Yeah Gracie! Karen I am so happy to hear the good news! Give her lots of kisses and hugs for us all as we all have felt your pain and worry. :biggrin1::hug::grouphug::grouphug::hug:


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## havanesebyha

Celeste I pray you have many more years with your precious Rico. Join the two lists Jeanne told you about and they may have some recommendations to help little Rico.

Hugs & Kisses to you both :grouphug::kiss:


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## Julie

Sounds like you got some good news about Gracie Karen!That's wonderful!!! One step at a time.....


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## Thumper

I'm glad the ultrasound came with some good news! I just hope they get to the bottom of this soon and get Gracie back to 100% well! 

When will you know if it is hepatits or another diagnosis?

Kara


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## Laurief

How nice to wake up to such great news!!! Way to go Gracie:whoo:
Karen, that is so great that they didnt see any abnormality on the ultrasound. And I would think that the biopsy will be easier to heal from as she is also having the spay. Better one surgery, than two!! Now, give that pink shaved belly lots of kisses and rubs from us!!! 

Celeste, we will keep you and Rico in our prayers that he continues to do well!!!


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## Gracie's Mom

Kara - the biopsy will show any type of liver problem like Hepatitis. We will get her Bile Acid or maybe just a blood panel done in about 3 weeks, then spay and biopsy her in 4 weeks. 

I consider the results good news, I guess because it appears she won't have actually surgery on the liver. I just don't know where she could have gotten hepatitis and the copper storage disease is very common in some breeds and rare in others. So, I'm guessing thats not it either. I can't imagine she got into anything toxic. I guess she could have, but I can't think of a single "toxic" thing that she has been exposed to. So, I keep thinking its going to turn out being MVD. I know I'm jumping the gun, but I keep mulling over everything and that seems to be the only fit. Here I go with "What ifs" again. But for now, I'm going to consider it good news because that's what I want to thinking over the next few weeks.

Celeste - I feel for your situation and will pray for you as well.

Karen


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## Beamer

Hi Karen,

Do you ever take Gracie for walks? Or even in your property? Who knows what she could have gotten into. Hoping for the best! 

Ryan


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## Julie

Karen,
Maybe I missed this in the last 20 pages,but is your breeder going to help pay for these medical expenses? It seems like they should...but I know some seem to,some don't when it comes to liver issues etc.


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## ama0722

I think that sounds like good news. We will all hope for whatever it is, that she doesn't require surgery or if she does, it is a very simple procedure.

Amanda


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## mckennasedona

Karen, I'm so happy to hear that Gracie's ultrasound went well and they found a normal sized liver and no obvious shunts. That's great news!! I know there is still more diagnosis to be done but be thankful for every small victory along the way. Give Gracie a bunch of belly rubs from us!

Celeste, I'm sorry to hear about Rico. I hope you have many more years with him.


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## Lola

That is really wonderful news!!! You must be so relieved. There is a liver support supplement that I give my Maggie called Denamarin. It is a combination pill of S-Adenosylmethionine and Silybin A+B. It is easier to give one pill I think. Check with you vet about it. It might be available for you. I also had to feed Maggie the Hills L/D. The problem with it is that it only comes in a very large bag. Storage and freshness of this food was a problem for me because Maggie eats small amounts and the bag lasted forever. I called the company for advice. They told me to store it in the bag only closed tightly. Do not store it in a container becasue the bag is made to keep it fresher longer. They also warned me not to freeze portions because in the thawing/storage process mold could develop and that could be toxic. Royal Canin also puts out a prescription liver diet in a smaller package size that works better for smaller appitites. But Maggie did not like it as much as the Hills. Fortunate her liver condition has improved over the months with her diet and medication that Maggie no longer has to be fed the liver diet. I am hoping you have the same results soon. Good luck!!!


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## SMARTY

We are so sorry to hear about Rico and have no experience with any of these type of problems so can only offer support.

Gracie's u/s and test sound positive to us for worse case scenario. We will be sending positive vibes to both of you.


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## JASHavanese

Gracie's Mom said:


> I will post when I learn more. I wish it were sooner than a "few" weeks!! ARGHHH!!!!! I just want to help her NOW - who has time to wait??? You guys are the best!!
> 
> Karen


I'm so far behind and am just seeing this. Karen our prayers are with you and Gracie. I can understand the feeling of find out NOW and am sorry you have to wait. :hug:


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## JASHavanese

Celeste we're sending prayers to you and Rico too. I hope you have him many more years. I had a pom for almost 16 years and was told when she was 10 that she had 6 months to live from chf. She lived almost 6 more years. 
Hugs to you both


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## Laurief

Lola, I can say that I freeze my guys food in ziploc bags. Otherwise with 3 dogs, I woul be buying food every week. I have never had a problem with freezing it. I would assume that the mold concern that they have is if you freeze a really large amound. I use the gallon sized bags, and you might even go smaller if she doesnt eat that much. I always worry about mold in everything, but I can say, I have never had a problem with their food!! 
I pray that Gracie and Rico are able to find the best possible diet and meds to give them both a long and healthy life!!!


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## JASHavanese

Gracie's Mom said:


> They are taking the Mom & Dad in on Monday for their test. They had no idea their dogs may have been a carrier of the gene or whatever it is that passes it along. They are responsible. They have told me they will do whatever they can to help, and I know they will make it right with us. No worries there, but I also don't want to make it difficult for them. I do believe they will be fair about this. That is their character. I am not going to say anything bad against them as they have NEVER given me one reason to. I know there are some breeders that have not supported people with these types of issue - I know ours does not fit into that category. I'm so glad you all push for good breeders - I'm finding out the reason for it now.
> 
> Karen


I love to read posts like this. Kudos to them for acting quickly :cheer2:


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## Gracie's Mom

I'm really not sure what to do with the food - maybe keep it in the bag and put it in a plastic sealed container?? Not sure. I had to buy a 20 lb bag. We've had her for 4 months and she's probably only eaten about 11 lbs - MAX. So - I guess I won't have to buy food for another 6 - 7 months and that includes adding more food in for growth. LOL!! Vet doesn't expect her to get much above 6 lbs. ever even after she gets her health back.

We are still waiting for our estimate from the vet. They need to get more information in regards to testing and how much the universities charge since they would have to send the copper test to them. I'm guessing this is not a routine thing for them. I'm going to check out the program at the Vet School at CSU myself. Maybe they would have more insight in that anyway?? Research, Research at this point. Again - Diana has been wonderful in helping me along these lines. . . doing her own research and reporting back what she finds. It's so nice to have multiple people helping with opinions. I'm learning so much - which is just giving us even more questions.

Karen


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## maryam187

Karen, so sorry you have to go through all this with your precious pup. I keep Pablo's food in a plastic container w/ a snap lid from the Container Store (I saw the same one at ROSS for half the price afterwards).


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## Laurief

Karen, if that is all she eats, then I would only buy an 8 lb bag and freeze it. 

It sure sounds like you are doing a good job of keeping track, and making sure that you are asking all the right quetions. Gracie is a lucky little girl!!! Keep us up to date on any info you get.
Laurie


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## irnfit

I have one of those plastic containers, also. It is concenient and the food seems to stay fresh. I got mine at Petsmart. It was about $15 but I had a coupon. so I think I paid $10.


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## marjrc

Karen, great news! I totally understand your impatience, worry and even some frustration as you are getting the exact same news I get with Ricky. lol They also found nothing abnormal in his u/s and are almost sure there are no shunts. They suspect he got something toxic...... well..... what??? I know for a fact he ate nothing toxic at all. I am home and watch them almost 100% of the time. O.k., so maybe a mushroom somewhere out on the lawn? I dunno... it doesn't seem at all likely and I'm sure you feel the same way about Gracie.

Linda wrote : *"I am glad to hear they don't think it's a shunt. Maybe it is just a freak thing. I know Carole had the same thing with Lulu. She thought it was from vaccines. "* And THIS is what I suspect happened with Ricky. I mean, c'mon. He had some shots 4 days before the hepatic attack. Coincedence? The vets seem to think so of course. sigh.....

Lola wrote: *"There is a liver support supplement that I give my Maggie called Denamarin. It is a combination pill of S-Adenosylmethionine and Silybin A+B. It is easier to give one pill I think. "* YES ! I just ordered this and it's being delivered to hubby's office in Florida this week so he can bring it back for me. It costs more to have it shipped here in Quebec. If you can get this, Karen, it will be easier only having to give one pill instead of two.

I agree about the shaved belly. It takes a long while to get used to it! lol It's true that in the grand scheme of things, it's nothing, but ..... it took Ricky at least two months before it wasn't an eyesore! LOL

Wow. It sounds like Miss Gracie will be teeny thing. Too sweet.  What's great about our Havkids, Karen, is that at least they are well and aren't at all 'sickly'. Thank goodness for that. Keep up the great work with the research and make sure to give the wee one tons of belly rubs from the gang here! ((hugs))  Hopefully, we'll get some concrete answers sooner than later.


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## Lola

Laurief said:


> Lola, I can say that I freeze my guys food in ziploc bags. Otherwise with 3 dogs, I woul be buying food every week. I have never had a problem with freezing it. I would assume that the mold concern that they have is if you freeze a really large amound. I use the gallon sized bags, and you might even go smaller if she doesnt eat that much. I always worry about mold in everything, but I can say, I have never had a problem with their food!!
> I pray that Gracie and Rico are able to find the best possible diet and meds to give them both a long and healthy life!!!


So when you freeze the food in small amounts do you dry it out before putting it in a container? I think that is what Hill's company meant about the mold, If I would not be careful about the thawing process, the moisture from freezing would even be in dry food and would mold if put in an air tight container. If you have never had a problem, then it is worth a try. A 20lb bag of food is hard to keep fresh for a 8lb dog.


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## Laurief

I have not had any problem with the "thaw out" at all! Thats not to say that it isnt a concern but when I take the Ziploc bags out of the freezer, I have never seen condensation or anything on the bag. That food was used for 3 dogs, now 2 since I am giving Logan something different but for an 8 lb dog, I would freeze it in the quart size bags & then you can be sure that it is getting eaten before anything can "grow" My vet was the one who recommended this freezing process so I assume they have had success. Good luck with it, I like it cause when DH says, "I just took the last bag out of the freezer" I know I gotta run to the vet to get more!!


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## Laurief

By the way..... how is Gracie doing?????


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## Gracie's Mom

Thanks for asking, Laurie. I didn't want to bore anyone with the news of no news so I haven't posted for a while. Gracie's Dads' Bile Acids were elevated (~32), but not like Gracies' (99.6). Both vets think it COULD be coincidental. We will just have to wait and see on this. I have my own opinion of what it is, but I guess I shouldn't speculate. Right now, she is on an antibiotic in addition to the supplements just in case it is a viral thing. I will know more in 2 weeks when we redo her Bile Acids and Blood Tests. It's just a waiting game, like Marj with Ricky, I guess. I think we will get her spayed in about 2 - 3 weeks. We may biopsy & spay her if numbers haven't improved. If they have improved we will just spay her. I'm hoping it resolves itself. Gracie is being as sweet as ever, though I'm questioning her amount of sleep - is she getting too much? Could this be another sign of something worse? I'm trying not to think about it too much. You can read something into anything, if you look for it. 

Karen


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## maryam187

Karen, I've been thinking about you and Gracie the last 2 days. It's so frustrating when all you can do is wait. 
You said:


> I have my own opinion of what it is


, what do you think it is?
You also said:


> Right now, she is on an antibiotic in addition to the supplements just in case it is a* viral thing*.


 FYI: antibiotics are useless against pure viral infections. They work against bacterial infections which in some cases (e.g. pneumonia) can develop on top of a viral infection or just be purely bacterial. I'm sure though, that there are other obvious reasons why they give her antibiotics...
She's such a gorgeous pup and deserves to have a healthy body, hope all will turn out well soon.


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## Laurief

Karen, I am glad to hear that you are not seeing anything glaring as far as symptoms - except lots of sleep. My guys ALL sleep a lot, and always have, so I guess, like you said, you can read anything from nothing!! I am sure that she is sleeping her normal amount. Hopefully it is bacterial & the antibiotics are working, or it is viral and time itself will be her best friend!! I think it is great that you will have the levels tested before the spay & possible biopsy. Why put her thru a biopsy if it doesnt appear that she needs it. We are thinking about that little girl, and I myself, would love to see some more pictures!!!!!
Laurie


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## Gracie's Mom

Maryam & Laurie,
Thanks for checking in. . . Thanks for the clarification, Maryam. . . Viral, Bacterial - same thing to me - I'm not a doctor. LOL :biggrin1: Actually, I just think its to fight off the Hepatitus or other "Bacterial" things just in case that is what it is. I'm not sure what they all are. Anyway, Laurie is right - there is no need to put her little body though a biopsy if her numbers go back with a little intervention of medication & supplements. She is very tiny still - she has gained 3.5 oz. in the past two weeks and is now a whooping 4 lbs. 7.5 oz.!! She is growing - but slowly. That is the part that concerns me. Time will tell us what is going on. I've been wrong more than once - so I will leave the diagnosis up to the vets.

Here are a couple of pictures I took yesterday. Warning - She has Bed Head!!!! The first, she is playing with her little bone. The second, she is giving you a tummy shot. You can see her shaved tummy from her ultrasound. I need to get a good shot of the place they clipped her side too high. But you can somewhat see it in this picture if you look close enough. They even nicked her skin that is loose that connects the side to the leg. Arghhh!! That is all healed now though. And the hair is beginning to grow back. Yeah!!

1 1/2 more weeks and I will have more news or at least know the next step. Can't wait!!

Karen


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## juliav

Karen,

Gracie is an absolute little doll. Give her an extra belly rub from me and the gang. I am glad she is gaining weight, it's a good sign. Is she eating well?


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## Gracie's Mom

She hasn't been eating real well. She used to eat about 1/3 cup a day, but I think she is eating a little less than that now - maybe 1/4 cup with her new diet. Maybe its more concentrated?? She's tiny so its hard to say she's a good eater. She is not a picky eater - that's to our advantage. Though - she doesn't care for watermelon or apples that they are recommending for treats. I'm now trying rice cakes thanks to Cheryls recommendation, and she loves them.

Karen


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## juliav

I think it's encouraging that she is eating (even if a bit less) and gaining weight. Is there anything you can add to her kibble to make it more desirable for her?


----------



## Missy

Karen, keeping fingers crossed that Gracie's numbers improve. She is an absolute doll!


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## Leeann

Karen she is such a doll, give that belly a rub for me.


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## Gracie's Mom

Julia - 
The LS & MVD Support group discourages much of any kind of other food or treat above her diet except watermelon & apple (probably funky flavors for a dog!!) They say I could put watermelon juice over her food, but she doesn't like that. Maybe I could try vanilla flavored Pedialite? I think I remember seeing that was OK. So many foods have things in them that are bad for liver problems. This is what has been especially hard to figure out. I have TONS of treats and chewies that she can't have right now. She's honestly not picky, but fruit - for a dog??? If you guys have any other suggestions for treats I'd be glad to hear them. We tried Sweet Potatoes for a while. Gracie LOVED them, but Cheryl said they are high in Manganese which can increase neurological symptoms. I'm sure you can understand my confusion.

Karen


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## maryam187

Karen, absolutely no idea if that's OK for her, but most of our dogs love baby carrots. Maybe Cheryl can tell us, if those are OK???


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## Laurief

Karen, first of all I have to say that those pics are absolutely adorable!!! What a precious face on that little girl!!! My guys absolutely LOVE apples. They cannot have them because they are on special diets for crystals in the bladder, but when they could, that was one of their favorite treats. I never heard of watermelon for dogs hmmmm. I think your best bet right now is to follow the food stipulations to the letter for now, to see if her levels get better. I think it is very encouraging tht she is gaining weight - and eating. Is everything else pretty normal??


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## Gracie's Mom

Laurie - I'm going to have to keep trying apples. She just plays with it, and won't eat any. At least she doesn't hate the flavor so much that she refuses to get near it (she does that with the watermelon). Are the crystals in their bladders stemming from liver problems? I know liver problems can lead to bladder & kidney stones. 

Everything else is going good. She's her usual "clepto"- self . . . She's busy as ever swiping my kids stuffed dragons and bunny slippers!! LOL She's good at finding them - wherever my kids hide them. She has her little "stash" area that we check whenever anything is missing. Sometimes we call her "Swiper" (from Dora)!! :evil:

Karen


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## MaddiesMom

Karen- I *love* those pictures of Gracie! What a doll! As far as treats, have you checked the "file" section of the liver support groups? I know the regular liver group has alot of treat recipes, but perhaps an MVD dog can't have all of them. I don't know what they can and cannot have. I've heard of people taking a canned version of their liver diet dog food (like l/d) and slicing it thinly and baking it to make "chips". Too bad that sweet potato isn't good. Maddie loves sweet potato chips and its the only treat I make and give her since its so healthy. If you know what type of foods an MVD dog can eat, perhaps the people on the liver support groups can think up a recipe. According to this website, you could try cheerios, rice cakes, green beans or carrots. http://www.yorkieangelpatrol.com/utday.htm If you have a specialist, ask them. MVD isn't a rare disease, and I'm sure there are some options for you.


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## Laurief

Karen, how sweet that she is the little Klepto!!
Actually Lily has had crystals in her bladder caused by her inability to break down certain minerals in certain foods. Because she and the other two are related (share a dad) we agreed with the vet that the other two might as well be on the special vet perscribed diet as well. Logan has been switched over to something else, but the girls are still on that food. No one has ever said anything about liver issues with my guys, and if being small is a symptom of liver issues, I need not worry - since Lily is 18lbs, Lexi 16 and Logan 15. Small is not what my guys would Ever be called!!! Lets hope that the diet and meds are exactly what Gracie need. 
Laurie


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## SMARTY

Karen, I am so glad to see Gracie is getting back to old self. The pictures are adorable, looks like things are moving in a positive direction. Keep us posted.


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## Jan D

Gracie sure is a sweetie Glad to hear things are going well and I hope they continue to! We'll be reading to stay updated. Good luck!


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## Lina

Karen, Gracie is just adorable! I love her belly shots. I'm glad that she is eating and gaining a little weight, that's great! I will continue to send positive thoughts your way. :hug:


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## Missy

Karen, I don't know anything about liver diseases. But it is mainly protein you need to avoid, yes? But my boys won't touch sweet potatoes but love real potatoes if it is ok for gracie, maybe you could make chips the same way. They sell bags of shredded potato at Whole Foods, so maybe just lay them on a cookie sheet and bake for small sized training treats. My boys also love carrots and celery and greenbeans. Oh and what about pasta? you would think it was a raw steak in my house if I put down spaghetti. You could used rice pasta if you are avoiding wheat. Cash even likes it un-cooked.


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## Me&2Girls

Missy you are so clever in thinking up healthy, non-protein treats. I love the "potato chips".


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## Poornima

Karen, Gracie is so adorable. I hope that she responds well to the treatment and continues to thrive. Sending her tons of healthy thoughts!


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## Suuske747

Such cute lovely pictures!
Glad to hear she's back up to misschief!


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## Leslie

Karen~ I'm glad to read, and see, how well Gracie is doing. She is such a doll baby!

Recently, Tori has fallen in love with steamed broccoli. She will only play w/it when it's raw, never eat it. But, steam it lightly and watch out! She practically inhales it, lol!

She's like Gracie, doesn't care for apples. However, carrots, in any form, are one of her top treats. I know Missy's boys like green beans, Tori won't touch them. She isn't too fond of plain potatoes, either. Sure hope you can find a few things you can use to "spice up" her food to get her to eat more. But, at least she's gaining!


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## Cheryl

Mine will only eat veggies cooked and they like their kibble made into casserole wth a little warm water and cooked veggies added.


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## Gracie's Mom

You guys are full of wonderful ideas - Thanks!! 

Jeanne - I feel like such a doofus!! :frusty: I really hate the format of the support group and their search engine doesn't work all that great. Anyway, I DID find the treat ideas thanks to your help. And thanks for the link for UT saying Cherrios, Carrots & Green Beans were also OK. Such great information!! Such an easy thing to find - for the "average" doof - But NOT For me!! :biggrin1:

You guys are great support - Lord knows I need it, to point out the obvious!! LOL

Karen


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## marjrc

Karen, those pics of Gracie are too sweet! She's got the prettiest dark eyes. What a doll! 

Glad to hear she's bouncing around normally and back to her thieving ways. lol 

I am pretty sure potatoes as a treat is o.k., since it's in the liver friendly diet - as are green beans and zucchini. Did you try writing in with the question of what treats are o.k.? What is your 'name' for the liver group? I'm not sure I've seen posts from you, though I'm very behind and still have 100 or so posts to browse through!

Won't you be glad when this is all over?


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## woodlandmoon

Such a cutie!!! I think of you and Gracie often.


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## Gracie's Mom

marjrc said:


> I am pretty sure potatoes as a treat is o.k., since it's in the liver friendly diet - as are green beans and zucchini. Did you try writing in with the question of what treats are o.k.? What is your 'name' for the liver group? I'm not sure I've seen posts from you, though I'm very behind and still have 100 or so posts to browse through!
> 
> Won't you be glad when this is all over?


Marj -

Thanks for the zucchini idea. I will try that. I did try carrots and Gracie didn't care for it at all. So, I'm going to try anything.

I'll be honest - I've really barely looked at the liver support group. I've never posted or looked into their posts much. I've spent most of my research on the LS/MVD Support group. My name comes up as "Karen" in that support group. Maybe I have another name and don't know it - HA!! It's been a while since I've posted there even. I guess I'm just trying to do my best right now. I like to know what I'm dealing with before I get too involved, Maybe?? I'm not sure how else to handle it. I just know I should probably know more within 3 weeks or so. I'm doing what I can for a general liver problem. Does that make sense? I guess I'm more inclined to believe she has LS/MVD vs. something else. I probably should get that out of my head though.

Gracie has been coughing a lot more lately and I'm not sure what to think of it. I guess I need to call the vet. Is there something she could have related to that? What 'exactly' is kennel cough and what are the symptoms? Could this be her problem? Maybe this is coincidental, but it is starting to concern me. She had all of her shots on time - even the kennel cough vaccination (I think that is the bortadella) at 4 months. * I can't wait till this is over.*

Karen


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## maryam187

Oh Karen, how exhausting this must be for you! Kennel cough is the 'whooping cough' in humans it's unlikely not to be heard. Very loud, incessant coughing attacks basically. Besides the fact that she got vaccinated, I can't imagine that she has Bordetella cause if I'm not totally off, they usually get it from places where they are in close contact with other dogs like kennels, doggie cares, etc. Pablo coughs when he drinks his water too fast and when he runs like a maniac on a sandy/leafy ground.


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## juliav

Bordatella is a really loud, obnoxious caugh that's sometimes followed by spitting up either mucus or just white foamy saliva. A dog can get it even if he/she isn't in close contact of kennel or doggy day care. Bugsy had a very mild form (didn't even take him to the vet) that was literally over in 24-36 hours. Then Brandy got it and hers was much worse lasted a few days and I gave her over the counter cough supressant at night so she could rest. They must have picked it up at the park as they are never in doggy day care. Romeo for some strange reason never caught it from them. Since bordatella is viral, antibiotics don't work for it. I actually had a dog years ago who got kennel caugh from the vaccine, which was administered through the nose at the time. 

Just keep an eye on that caugh and see how she is doing in a couple of days.


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## Gracie's Mom

Maryam & Julia - Your probably right . . . she coughs when she is active & RLH in the house. Her cough is loud and sometimes several times in a row. It sounds like she may be coughing something up, but I've never seen it. As soon as I run over to her - she stops. That is the confusing part!! I know you can catch kennel cough at the pet store, park or anywhere there is a dog like Julia said. So glad it is a viral thing and it would likely be curable with just time. So, if she does have it - it is probably in addition to something liver related. Probably just my imagination though.

Karen


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## Thumper

I sure hope its not KC  Gucci will cough occasionally, esp. after she drinks water..but its hard not to panic over stuff like that.

Hugs to Gracie!
Kara


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## Gracie's Mom

OK - So, I called the vet and mentioned her cough. But really I called because after I sent the message out, I began noticing this awful smell from her face after I groomed her. It's not her ears. I asked the vet if it could be a yeast infection in her eyes because she has been watering like crazy. They hardly dry out during the day. But she doesn't have all of her baby teeth out yet. She though it could be the baby teeth on their way out or it could be the eyes. I need to try to figure out where the oder is coming from she says. I'm not sure how I will do that, but I'll try. Vet said she could have allergies - causing watery eyes and the cough together. That makes sense. Who knows - they will check next Tuesday (3/25) when we go in for more Bile Acid & Blood Tests. The smell is pretty bad though. She has "gunk" that I pull out of her eyes every day and her stains are semi-red colored. Hope its not yeast. Am I a hypochondriac? I think my nerves are just on high. 

Karen


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## maryam187

Karen, that sounds like it *could* be a yeast infection. Pablo started to have stinky breath when he started teething. I can tell it's his breath not his eyes, cause when he yaaaaawns, that's when I smell it most, LOL. Try to smell her eye area/face vs her mouth, maybe that'll help...


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## Missy

Karen , when something is wrong it's hard not to start noticing other things that are going on --- and then trying to tie them all together to make some sense-- even though most times you can't make any sense out of all of it.

Jasper had smelly eye gunk for a bit-- I started giving him some yogurt and that helped, as well as getting eye drops that you can put in their eyes to keep them flushed out. My vet said the eye gunk and watering happen often because they have dry eye. this is what she suggested-- you can get it at any most human pharmacy. I got mine at Walgreens

http://www.drugstore.com/products/p...2=43974&trxp3=1&trxp4=0&btrx=BUY-PLST-0-BRAND


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## Gracie's Mom

Missy - I think I will go get those drops. Unless, I should check with the vet because she's on other meds. What do you think? She mentioned a medication with acidophillus??. But she thought waiting until next week would be fine because these vet bills are playing a toll on our finances - I KNOW you can relate. So, maybe I'll just try yogurt for now. Should I try the drops and how much do I use if I do?

Karen


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## Gracie's Mom

I just had to post these pictures I took of Roxie (Gracie's sister - littermate owned by rockluvr on the forum) and Gracie yesterday. Shortly after that - Diana & I gave Roxie her 2nd haircut. I hope it's OK that I shared, Diana. They have an absolute BLAST together. Anyway, you can see a pretty big size difference in the two, but they look so much alike. Two peas in a pod.

Our Bile Acid tests & blood tests are scheduled for Tuesday - I can't wait to hear!!!

Karen


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## ama0722

It is like a mini me! It is great you guys are close enough for play dates!

I have my fingers crossed for your test results!

Amanda


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## juliav

They are adorable and look so much alike.


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## Leeann

Looks like they had a great time, thanks for sharing. We will be saying prayers for good test results next week.


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## Missy

Oh Gracie and Roxie are both so gorgeous. and you know Gracie does not look all that much smaller!! 

Karen, be sure to get the gel. it lasts longer and works better. I of course would check with the vet-- but I believe it is pretty gentle the vet who told me about it is pretty holistic. You just pull down gracie's lower lid squeeze out a small amount and kind of gently smush it in-- I bet you can ask the vet or vet tech to show you how when you go on tuesday to get the bile acid test. 

Good luck-- I am going to be sending out positive vibes for much better numbers....


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## Gracie's Mom

Thanks for the compliments on the two. We love them both!! Roxie is a lot whiter than Grace, but you can't really see that in the pictures.

Missy - Are you talking about the gel for her eyes? I thought you were talking about her Bile Acids, but I'm not sure how that would work into that picture. LOL

Now, I realize - you ARE talking about the gel for the eyes. Sorry!

Karen


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## Missy

No need to be sorry--- Yes the instructions were for the gel for the eyes. The positive thoughts are for your test on Tuesday!!!! (ahhh the written medium LOL)


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## Laurief

Karen, they are just so adorable, you just want to squeeze them!!!! I am sending good vibes for Tuesdays tests!!!


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## Lina

Karen, they really do look very alike! They look like they had a lot of fun together. Good luck with the test on Tuesday! I will be thinking of you.


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## SMARTY

Both girls are beautiful, but there is a big differance in their size. Gracie looks very healthy in th photos.


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## good buddy

Beautiful photos and they both look great! What a size difference though. I wouldn't be able to guess they are sisters! Good luck Tuesday on the tests. I'll be holding good thoughts for you.


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## maryam187

Karen and Diana, they're both adorable!
Good luck for Tuesday!!!


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## marjrc

The pics of the girls are gorgeous!!!!! They have such beautiful coats! I especially love the last one of them on the move. Gracie's flash of pad is precious! 

Hang in there, Diana. Tuesday is coming up soon!

I am having some problems with Ricky since Thurs. morning, but will post in his thread about it. Headaches and lack of sleep from all this stress is playing havoc on me !


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## Thumper

Beautiful pictures! 

That eye smell? I think its just from when the hair dries out after tearing. I think it kind of stinks, but not like yeast...I can't explain it, but more like, acidic or dirty dog smell maybe?

Kara


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## Julie

I hope Tuesday you have great news on Gracie. She is so cute. I loved seeing her pictures with her sister. They look so much alike to me,aside from size...and yet,I thought that would be greater as well. Sounds like she is slowly improving though---so hang in there!


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## Paige

They look like they were having alot of fun together. Both are beautiful little girls. Good luck on the test Tuesday.


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## Gracie's Mom

Thanks everyone - I have felt super supported by the forum - you cannot imagine. I'm hoping that the doctors will be able to spay and possibly biopsy her liver (if necessary) next week while the kids are on Spring Break. I work at a preschool 2 days a week, and this would maximize the amount of time I could stay at home without leaving her. I'm not sure if the recovery time with a biopsy would be longer than that of a just a spay.

Kara - I'm thinking that is what it is. Her tears don't dry up all the time because she is so teary. I sure hope she gets over the teething soon. Hoping this will stop the constant tearing. After I wash her face - she does smell better though.

Karen


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## Cheryl

Although I have never had a dog just "spayed," I don't think the biopsy added length to her recovery--just length in her incision.


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## Gracie's Mom

Cheryl - where is the incision and how long is it?

Karen


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## Cheryl

If I remember correctly it was about mid abdomen to just below the ribs. Funny, I just looked and I could see no scar on Roxie and she was done in December.


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## Gracie's Mom

That's not too bad. I just didn't know since they had to cover two areas.

Thanks!
Karen


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## marjrc

I work on Tuesday, but you and Gracie will be in my thoughts, Karen! I wish you both very well and will try to check in later that evening. Will they be keeping her overnight?


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## ricosmom

I hope everything goes well with Gracie. I truly wish I could have a biopsy done on Rico. He has been in good spirits lately. You would never know anything is wrong with him. That's what makes it so hard. Did I read correctly that Gracie is small, weight wise? Rico is 18 pounds. His father was big, but I believe it's because of his liver. The vet put him on a different, low fat diet. My thoughts are with you and Gracie.
Celeste


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## Cheryl

Celeste, I am glad that Rico is doing better lately. I think he needs to be on a low protein diet for his liver, but it does not have to be high in fats. It sounds like you are trying to treat him symptomatically. How are his seizures?


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## JASHavanese

Darn, I was hoping to see if you had answers yet. Waiting is such a hard thing to do with our furkids. We're sending you hugs and prayers for tomorrow :hug::hug:


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## Laurief

Oh I am glad to hear that Rico is doing well and acting normal - that is a great sign!!

Karen, before I get burried in work today, I wanted to tell you that we wish Gracie good luck on her tests tomorrow, and pray that they all come out normal so she does not need the biopsy - let us know!! 
:kiss: from the 4 L's


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## SMARTY

Just checking and wanted you to know you are in our thoughts. We will be sending positive vibs to you and Gracie tomorrow.


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## maryam187

Karen, will be keeping my fingers crossed for the results tomorrow! Please keep us posted.


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## Cheryl

Karen--I work tomorrow as well, but wanted you to know that you and Gracie will be in my thoughts. Keep us posted!!


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## Gracie's Mom

Thanks everyone for wishing us well. Gracie's appointment is at 9 a.m. (MST). I'm guessing I might know her ALT enzyme level tomorrow, but the Bile Acid results will be back on Wednesday. I have to leave her there for a couple of hours while so they can feed her and wait for 2 hours and retest her. Wednesday is the day for big news. If there is a surgery appointment available on Thursday morning, I'm tempted to ask them to do the clotting test tomorrow also. I guess they need to do a clotting test before they cut into the liver. I'd really like her to get this behind her even though it REALLY makes me cringe to think she has to go through it at all. I can't but help but wonder if she would even make it through surgery. I know she would probably be fine, but my mind wanders to the worst case scenario and I hate thinking that way!!! So, my nerves are a bit crazy right now. I guess it is a Mom thing. 

Celeste - Gracie is small - I think she MAY weigh about 4 lbs. 10 oz now, but that is a guess. She will be 7 months on the 26th. So, she is pretty tiny for a hav at that age. It sounds like Rico is doing well right now, I hope he continues on that path. 18 lbs. is a big hav for a liver shunt, but I guess anything can happen.

Karen


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## Gracie's Mom

I just weighed her on my scale at home. My scale is always about 3 oz. heavier than the vets. So, my guess is that she weighs 4 lbs. 9 oz. (adjusted to be what I believe the vets would say) What is that in growth?? About 2 oz. in two weeks. I think when we started her antibiotics 2 weeks ago tomorrow, she weighed 4 lbs. 7 oz. That is really scary, huh?!! That is hardly any gain. Roxie her sister has slowed down on growing also, but I would have thought she would have continued at a little faster rate since she wasn't growing fast the first 6 months. I'm really believing that it has got to be something more than a bacterial infection or something easy to resolve. Yikes!! A couple of more days will tell us what it is not, right?? Then, the biopsy will show us more. Cheryl and those with liver biopsy histories - how long does it take to get those results back?

Karen


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## havaluv

Karen, you and Gracie will be in my thoughts tomorrow. I think you are right in your plan to try to get it all done quickly at the same time if you can. Otherwise you will have too much time and opportunity to worry about it (and imagine worst case scenarios!). As Mark Twain said "I've been through a lot of really bad things in my life and some of them actually happened!"  Try not to worry...we'll be holding you up! :angel:


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## MaddiesMom

Karen- My thoughts will be with you and Gracie. We're all sending hugs and prayers your way. Let us know as soon as you find out anything.


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## Leeann

Karen thinking of you and Gracie this morning, sending lots of good thoughts and prayers.


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## Judy A

Karen, wishing you and Gracie the best today and sending positive vibes and lots of prayers your way.


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## Thumper

Karen, we will be thinking about you and Gracie today! :kiss: I hope the visit goes well and you get some answers. Keep the faith! :grouphug:

Kara


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## juliav

Hi Karen,

Just checking in to wish you good luck today on the test. We are here for you.


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## mckennasedona

:hug: to Karen and Gracie today. You are in my thoughts today.


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## mintchip

:grouphug:Karen and Gracie:grouphug:


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## Sandra

Karen, I haven't posted in months...so am not aware of what else has been going on with Gracie. I have 2 Havs and one has MVD. Same thing as what has happened to you...alerted to it through blood work problems...Then we had an ultrasound and a liver biopsy which showed MVD. Halley (our MVD Hav) has done extremely well on a special diet and is now on no supplements. She is beautiful, very enegertic, smart, etc...like all Havanese....you would never know she has a liver problem. As you go through this medical process, if you need ANY help do email me and also join up on the Liver_Shunt_and_MVD_Support Yahoo Group...the moderators there on that very active list have tremendous knowledge and will help you a lot!
Sandra, Mom to Halley (MVD) and Glory


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## Julie

Our thoughts are with you Karen and Gracie:hug:

I'm sending an :angel: to look after you!


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## Missy

thinking of you and Gracie today Karen. Hugs.


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## Julie

checking for any news......:ear:


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## Gracie's Mom

Thanks so much for being my rock!! I appreciate all of your concerns and words of encouragement. Thank you, Sandra, for offering support based on experience. There are just so many wonderful people here!!

The news today is . . . no news!! They sent off all the labs together so it would save me about $70, so I won't get any news until late tomorrow afternoon. Bummer!!! One thing super sweet was, when we picked her up there wasn't anyone there. So, they put her down in the back and let her run up and greet us. She was whining/crying with so much excitement. She usually greets us like that at home, but this one was extra special because I knew she hated her morning. 

I heard something on the radio the other day. If a man locked his wife & dog up in the trunk of his car for an hour - who would be happy to see them? See the loyalty here. I took her into the vet so they could do those cruel things to her and she STILL loves me. Unconditionally!! 

I will report more tomorrow - good or bad. They said surgery would not happen this week regardless. Not sure why, but they said it was much to early to really schedule something like that. I'm not sure why, but I will be full of questions tomorrow when they call with results.

Thanks so much for your love and prayers - Gracie & I feel every one of them.

Karen


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## Julie

Well hang in there Karen.:hug: We'll be awaiting the results as well. Enjoy Gracie...give her extra belly rubs!


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## juliav

Thanks for the report Karen. We are waiting for Gracie's results right along with you.


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## maryam187

Karen, hang in there, we'll be anxiously awaiting the news tomorrow afternoon!


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## marjrc

Relieved to hear Gracie is back home with you! Of course she's glad to see you guys. Isn't that so cute? 

I can't wait to hear more!!! I should be around to check in on you tomorrow. Hang in there, my friend! ((hugs))


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## Cheryl

We're hangin in there with you, Karen!!!


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## Leslie

Checking in to see what the latest news is. Hang in there Karen, we're all here waiting with you.


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## JanB

Karen, many prayers for good news tomorrow!

BTW, i received that joke about the wife and the dog in the trunk of the car via e-mail. I sent it to my DH and now he teases me with it when Tessa gets the lovin' first when he comes home in the evening :biggrin1: It's true a dog is true unconditional love. I'm so glad she is back home with you.


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## Laurief

Karen, I am so glad to hear that her afternoon was happy!! I know it seems that even if I am just in the laundrey room, that greeting Mommy and Daddy is such an "uplifting" thing for a dog, and sure does make us feel good too!!

I will keep my prayers & good vibe going thru the day so those results are good!!! Give that sweet girl extra kisses and hugs from us all, she has been going thru so much! 

Keep your chin up and dont think about the bad possibilities - You may very well get some GREAT news this afternoon!!


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## Julie

Thinking about you....:hug:Karen and Gracie:hug:


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## Missy

Karen, Hope Gracie's news is good today.


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## Havtahava

Gracie's Mom said:


> I heard something on the radio the other day. If a man locked his wife & dog up in the trunk of his car for an hour - who would be happy to see them? See the loyalty here. I took her into the vet so they could do those cruel things to her and she STILL loves me. Unconditionally!!


Yes, dogs are amazing in that regard! Man's Best Friend indeed!

I keep following your thread even if I don't post with each update. I'm trying to be a silent supporter for you, Karen. I'll be thinking about you a lot today.


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## maryam187

Karen, any (good) news yet?


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## marjrc

Thought I'd check in again today....... chat later.


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## Leslie

Just checking for any news...


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## Gracie's Mom

OK - I can't believe I'm writing this message. Her numbers are not 100% perfect, but MUCH MUCH MUCH better. A reason for celebration!!!!!!!!

Here are the results:

* ALT Enzymes are 115. On 2/28 they were 435 (Normal is 5 - 105)
* AST are 33. On 2/28 they were 73 (Normal is 5 - 55)
* Bile Acid while fasting is 2.3. On 2/28 they were 71.7. (Normal is <7)
* Bile Acid 2 hours after a fatty meal is now 69.9. On 2/28 they were 99.6. (Normal is <15)

Vet says they don't even think it is MVD because the numbers wouldn't have come down so fast. They are hoping it is Hepatitis (Viral or Bacterial) or some toxin that she got into that is resolving itself. (I can't imagine when she would have got into something, but I guess anything is possible)

We are going to retest in 3 weeks to see if they will go down back to normal. She will continue on another round of antibiotics, her 2 supplements and her liver diet. We will not spay her until her numbers are normal - unless they don't come down further. They are hoping to avoid the liver biopsy altogether.

CELEBRATE!!!! She is not completely out of the woods, but it is not looking as grim as it once did. *Thank you, thank you, thank you* for all of your support and prayers - see it DID make a difference. :kiss: Just keep them coming that they end up with nothing seriously wrong. I'm ecstatic right now, can you tell?!!! More waiting, but it's worth the wait if I can continue to get good news.

:whoo: :cheer2:

Karen


----------



## mintchip

Glad to hear the good news!!!


----------



## Lina

That is wonderful news! I'm so happy for you both! :whoo:


----------



## Gracie's Mom

Wouldn't it be great if she were _just a small hav _with NO problems??? I'm dreaming!!!! I pray that comes true!!

Karen


----------



## mellowbo

:whoo:
:drum::clap2::cheer2::kiss::rockon::bump2::tea::hug:

Yipeeee! It would seem to me that if it were truly a liver problem it wouldn't show better lab results!!
Karen, I went through this with Lulu. Her first set of BAT's were 61/15. Her second set was 2/3. Her pre-spay alt was normal. There are many things that can send the enzymes wacko such as a small attack of pancretitis. 
Bless you, I know how worried you have been. I'll bet her next BAT will be even better!!
Carole
xxoox


----------



## maryam187

:clap2: :cheer2:


----------



## mellowbo

Gracie's Mom said:


> Wouldn't it be great if she were _just a small hav _with NO problems??? I'm dreaming!!!! I pray that comes true!!
> 
> Karen


Karen, that's exactly what I'm praying for. Lulu is 10 months and 6.2 lbs. She is very spunky and healthy. We are going to re-test her one more time and then just let it go. I'll bet they are both small but normal!!!
xxoox


----------



## juliav

Karen,

That's just wonderful, I am so happy for you and Gracie.


----------



## Laurief

Oh Karen - how exciting:whoo::whoo::whoo:I am so happy for you and Gracie!! What fabulous news!!! Sounds like it must have been something other than the liver, but best to recheck in 3 weeks. Also, I am really glad to hear that they are holding off on the spay till then. It sounds like your vet is trying to hold off doing anything invasive until they are sure that they dont need to do a biopsy. Looks like they have Gracie's best interest in mind!! I am sure that you are going to doing a lot of hugging, kissing and cuddling tonight!!!!!


----------



## JanB

Karen, fabulous news!! :whoo::whoo::whoo:


----------



## KristinFusco

Congratulations Karen and Gracie!!!!!!!!

What a relief! :whoo:


----------



## Missy

Oh Karen!!! Yeah!!!! :whoo::biggrin1:arty::drum::boxing::flypig:::hug::clap2::clap2::clap2:

I am so happy!!! She is such a precious cutie we are all right there with you hoping for her numbers to come all the way back down. And todays news is reason to hope. I will keep sending those positive vibes your way!!!! 

hip hip hooray!


----------



## Cheryl

I am glad to hear that Gracie's number improved!!


----------



## Me&2Girls

Karen what fabulous news. You must be so thrilled. Celebrate tonight!


----------



## Havtahava

Well, that is very encouraging, Karen! I'm so glad for you and Gracie!


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## irnfit

Such great news about Gracie!!!!


----------



## TobyBaby

That is fantastic news!


----------



## Gracie's Mom

I hear the forum cheerleading squad. Yipppeeeeeeee!!! :cheer2: :cheer2: :cheer2: Thanks so much!!! You guys are there with the good and the bad.

I just talked to Gracie's breeder and he is VERY happy. He is going in to retest Gracie's Dad this weekend. If you remember, his numbers were slightly elevated. It could have been purely coincidental - that's what we are hoping for. He is definitely being responsible throughout this process. I just had to share his proactive approach. I'm thrilled to know he cares about his puppies and future puppies. For that matter - I've never questioned it anyway and this just proves it all the more.

Karen


----------



## Salsa's Mom

Karen,

I've been reading this thread and I'm so glad to hear that you got good news today about your little Gracie. :whoo:


----------



## MaddiesMom

*FANTASTIC* news about Gracie's improved numbers! :whoo::whoo::whoo::bounce::bounce::bounce::cheer2::cheer2::cheer2:


----------



## Leeann

What wonderful news to read tonight, I am so happy for you.


----------



## anneks

WOW, that is great news!! I'm so happy to hear that Gracie's number have improved so much. I can't wait to hear in 3 weeks that they are all completely normal.


----------



## marjrc

Fantastic news, Karen!!!!!! Oh, I am so relieved for you! Yaaaaaaayy! 

How strange that it came and went like that? That is the ideal situation, really. That it is/was something bacterial and once that toxin is gone, she heals well. Bravo!!


----------



## havaluv

That's GREAT news! :clap2:arty:







:clap2:arty: I am visualizing her in perfect health, petite and beautiful! I'll keep praying too. I'm so happy to check back and find wonderful news. Yay!!!!


----------



## Amy R.

Wonderful news, Karen. I am thrilled for you and sweet Gracie.


----------



## Missy

Hugs to you and Gracie today!!!!


----------



## ama0722

Oh small and healthy is great news. I really hope the numbers continue to go down on the third testing!

:grouphug:

Amanda


----------



## Leslie

Karen~ This is wonderful news! I'll keep praying those #'s continue their downward trend. What a load of worry has been lightened.


----------



## mckennasedona

Karen, Great and encouraging news!! I'm so happy for you and Gracie. I hope the next tests are even better.


----------



## NewHavMom

Gracies Mom, I'm new to the forum and have just read your thread from beginning to end. As a fairly new havanese owner I'm very happy to hear your great news! I think I could just cry for you & your family, I can only imagine the heartache, knowing how much we love our little Gizmo. It only goes to show how much good thoughts and prayers work! I truly believe that. Good Luck in the coming weeks and look forward to your updates.


----------



## Gracie's Mom

NewHavMom said:


> Gracies Mom, I'm new to the forum and have just read your thread from beginning to end. As a fairly new havanese owner I'm very happy to hear your great news! I think I could just cry for you & your family, I can only imagine the heartache, knowing how much we love our little Gizmo. It only goes to show how much good thoughts and prayers work! I truly believe that. Good Luck in the coming weeks and look forward to your updates.


Your so sweet - thanks for reading - its a long thread. I has been tough, but as you can see I've had tons of support. This is a great forum. I'm believing in my heart that things will turn out good.

Karen


----------



## Doggie Nut

Well Hallelujah for the good news! I am so happy for you and know you are so relieved! Continued progress!


----------



## Lola

:whoo::whoo:That is wonderful news!!!!!


----------



## RCKNROB

Congratulations. Yeah, Yeah, Prayers work miracles, keep the good news coming.

Robin


----------



## RCKNROB

:whoo:Congratulations. Yeah, Yeah, Prayers work miracles, keep the good news coming.

Robin


----------



## pjewel

I don't know how I missed this in the last couple of days, but I'm so glad I saw it this morning. Wonderful news . . . what a relief! I too will continue to pray for Gracie's continuing good health . . . and low numbers.


----------



## Sissygirl

Karen,

So happy about Gracie's test - praying everything will be fine for the next test.


----------



## classeylassie

Oh gosh so glad to read the good news Karen. All the best.


----------



## Havtahava

Gracie's Mom said:


> I just talked to Gracie's breeder and he is VERY happy. He is going in to retest Gracie's Dad this weekend. If you remember, his numbers were slightly elevated. It could have been purely coincidental - that's what we are hoping for. He is definitely being responsible throughout this process. I just had to share his proactive approach. I'm thrilled to know he cares about his puppies and future puppies.


Oh, that is great to read too! It was obvious, from what you wrote, that they were standing by you and supporting you, but I'm so glad to see it is more than just lip service. That's encouraging for everyone!


----------



## mellowbo

Karen,
How is Gracie doing?
Carole
xxoox


----------



## Gracie's Mom

Carole - Thanks so much for asking. So far - she is doing great with no symptoms. I weighed her the other day and she had not gained an ounce in a few weeks. That part scares me . . . maybe my scale isn't 100% accurate, but I know the weight didn't change in about 2 1/2 weeks. She is about 4 lbs. 10 oz. at 7 1/2 months. My husband calling her our little Munchkin.  I'm hoping she is just a small hav with no problems. She finished her 2nd round of antibiotics this week. She will go back this week for another complete liver work-up: BATS, ALT Enzymes and all. I will post when I get those results. I'm hoping she is even better than last time. I really hope she is over this soon and that it is nothing serious. I want to get her spayed before she goes into heat and her personality changes.

In the meantime, Roxie (her sister) is here for a few days to visit and they are playing non-stop!!! Little Gracie is trying to get that alpha status that she has always had with her litter mates. Anyway, it will be an interesting & fun week with her here. She's like one of the family since we've known her since they were a week old.

Karen


----------



## havaluv

Karen, that's such good news. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for good test results this week. I'll be praying for completely normal numbers! Do keep us posted. 

Sending Roxie and Gracie rubbles!!


----------



## Sissygirl

Karen,

I have been thinking about you guys and hoping everything is going well.
Hope the test results are good ones!


----------



## BeverlyA

Sending all good thoughts for little Gracie. Don't let her have too much fun this week! 
Please keep us posted.
Beverly


----------



## Amy R.

Karen, sending you all best thoughts for sweet little Gracie's continued good progress. Wishing for excellent test results!


----------



## Cheryl

Karen, you and Lulu will be in my thoughts and prayers. What day is her tests?


----------



## Judy A

Praying for postive results!


----------



## Missy

Yeah Gracie. Keeping my fingers crossed.


----------



## marjrc

How nice that the sisters will be playing together for a few days! I wish I had some Hav dates for my boys. Sounds like Gracie is enjoying herself. 

I will be anxious to hear the results. good luck!!


----------



## Gracie's Mom

Thanks for the well wishes. For the time, our mind has been busy with Roxie's (her litter mate) stay. A few details. . .

Gracie and Roxie are either playing the dominance game constantly (even on the stairs!!! Yikes!! That scares me!!) or they are sleeping from exhaustion. Gracie is more interested in Roxie than me.  Roxie jumps into my lap every once in a while for a quick one second lick in between her rough play with Gracie. That's pretty sweet. I guess if Gracie has a choice to lay somewhere on her breaks it is usually near me though. Their personalities are pretty different - Gracie is a complete lap dog when she is the only dog. She becomes or tries to become the alpha and is constantly working on that when Roxie is here. I guess Roxie has her down time at home, but seems to have more energy than Gracie - per Diana (her Mommy). I guess I never knew how different they could be. Reading about different personalities and seeing it are two different things! I wonder sometimes where the line is between playing and fighting. They appear to have fun, but then they will break into a pure growling and more nipping than their usual. I don't know whether to laugh or to separate them. It has been so much fun watching them play and interact though. Gracie will surely miss her when she leaves. She will be bored!!

So nice to think of other dog related things lately than the series of tests and waiting that Gracie has been through.


----------



## maryam187

Karen, glad to hear Gracie is having a great time with her sister. At least they will keep you entertained during this difficult time. Hoping all will turn out well, hugs...


----------



## havaluv

It's probably really good for Gracie...sounds like Roxy is giving her a run for her money! I wonder about that line between playing and fighting sometimes too, but I think this is something dogs have to do to establish their boundaries and places in the pack. 

Please keep us posted on Gracie. Sending her a :hug: You too!


----------



## Poornima

It is great that Gracie is enjoying with her sister. Hope all turns out well for Gracie.


----------



## Cheryl

Just checking in to see when Gracie has her blood work. I would love to see pictures of her and Roxie--they are having so much fun!!!


----------



## marjrc

Cheryl is right, Karen! Where are the pics of the sisters together?? 

It is interesting to see two dogs interact, siblings or not. I'm sure it's been fascinating. Yes, they do their own 'thing' to establish who is boss for that moment, but you will know when it's a real fight, trust me! There may be times when they just need to cool off separately, but so long as one isn't being put down by the other all the time, there isn't usually any harm done. 

Ricky and Sammy can get VERY loud sometimes, esp. if they're racing around the back yard as they've done twice this week...... mud, twigs, dead leaves and all... sigh..... :frusty: lol

I think of you often and hope little Gracie's surgery goes well. Do let us know after you've dropped her off. We want to keep tabs on everything.


----------



## whitBmom

I hope all is well with Gracie :hug: It is so nice to hear she is having a great time with her sibling - its always a riot when there is more than one Havanese in the house!!


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## mckennasedona

Karen,
I'm glad you are enjoying the siblings together. It's always so much fun except for those times when, like human siblings, they squabble. 
I'm hoping that Gracie gets terrific test results to you can sit back and enjoy your tiny Hav without the constant worry.


----------



## marjrc

Hey Karen, just wondering what day it is that Gracie is going in..... didn't she have tests done last week? 

I'm so behind and I should just go back and read your older posts, but thought I'd post instead and ask if there has been an update. Take care!


----------



## Gracie's Mom

Thanks so much for your interests. I've had to take a bit of a break because my life is a little crazy right now. So sorry I didn't reply - I didn't know there were posts. It will continue for a while since we will travel for a funeral. It is amazing how some of you keep up daily. It is hard when you have 2 young kids!! I envy your time.

Anyway, the news . . . I had her liver workup done today and got the results back already!! She is doing OK, but the Internal Specialist recommended that it is time for her to have a liver biopsy along with a spay. They say she could still be fighting something and possibly have a small case MVD on top of it all. Can't wait to know! But for now she is acting as healthy as ever - still.

ALT Enzymes are 122 were 115 (4 weeks ago) s/b 5 - 107
Bile Acid (Fasting) are 18 were 2.3 (4 weeks ago) s/b <7
Bile Acid (2 hours after a fatty meal) are 55.5 were 69.9 s/b <15

They are some ups and downs, but the numbers are better than where we started at the end of February. I have scheduled a clotting test for her Tuesday, April 29th and her spay and liver biopsy for Friday, May 2nd. I'm getting a little anxiety right now. They reassured me that she _should_ be fine through surgery. But still I'm getting butterflies. Please keep her in your prayers on that day. :fear:

Oh - she only gained .07 pounds in 4 weeks.  She is now a whopping 4.69 pounds. ARGHHH!! They say that is fine because at the age she is - a puppies' growth should be slowing down. I guess we are doing what we can to figure out what the problem is.

Thanks again for all of your support and encouraging words.

Pix - I didn't take any last week. :sorry:


----------



## mellowbo

Karen,
I am so sorry for all the stress you are having right now. Since Gracie is having the spay done I am glad she is having the biopsy at the same time. I know that whatever is going on it will be taken care of and she will be fine. You are right on top of it! And, you know what, I love having a small havanese. 
I guess what I really want you to know is that I am praying for you in this time of stress. 
Carole
xxoox


----------



## Cheryl

I know the anxiety you are feeling and I am sending you a PM.


----------



## Me&2Girls

Karen - thanks for updating us. I'm sorry that her numbers aren't better but at least they aren't totally through the roof. Hugs to you and Gracie and best of luck with her spay and biopsy.


----------



## juliav

Karen,

I am sorry Gracie's results are not what you were hoping for, but at least she can be spayed and have the liver biopsy. Hopefully the biopsy will shed the light on her problem. We will be thinking of you and Gracie.


----------



## marjrc

Karen, so great to hear more from Gracie. I see there are some improvements, so that is a good thing. Her numbers aren't alarmingly high. Is she taking the Denosyl or Denamarin? I can't remember... 

I'm sure she'll do fine during the surgery. It's when you have to deal with Miss Conehead that the fun will begin!  Of course we will all keep you and little Gracie in our thoughts. Keep us posted, hon!

Don't worry about trying to catch up on a lot of the posts/threads. I'm also quite behind. Sorry to hear about your busy life these days.


----------



## Gracie's Mom

Marj - Gracie is on SAMe and Hepatosupport. My 13 1/2 year old Cairn Terrier was on Denosyl and Marin for a while with liver problems, but hers are due to old age. What is Ricky on?


----------



## Missy

awww Karen. I wish the news was perfect!!! but at least it's better. Are you going to do the biopsy when she is spayed? Thinking of you and little Gracie!


----------



## Cheryl

Karen--we have a lot in common. Before we got our havanese, we had a Cairn Terrier until he died at 16 years.


----------



## Rita

Oh Karen. I am just catching up and so sorry about all you been through with Gracie. My thoughts and prayers are with you. :angel:


----------



## Leslie

Karen~ My prayers are with you and little Gracie :hug:


----------



## marjrc

Gracie's Mom said:


> Marj - Gracie is on SAMe and Hepatosupport. My 13 1/2 year old Cairn Terrier was on Denosyl and Marin for a while with liver problems, but hers are due to old age. What is Ricky on?


Ricky is taking Denamarin (SAM-e and Milk Thistle combined) every morning. I just ordered two more boxes since it's half price for me to get them from the U.S. than from my vet. Big diff!

I'm not sure what I'm waiting for, but he will have to be retested soon I think. I wish I could tell easily just what his ALT is at now!


----------



## JASHavanese

Marj and Karen we're sending hugs :hug: and best wishes to you and the little ones.


----------



## Thumper

Hugs and Kisses to Gracie to Ricky. :grouphug:

Kara


----------



## ivyagogo

I'm just catching up here too. More hugs and kisses to Gracie and Ricky.


----------



## Gracie's Mom

Thanks for your well wishes. I'm going to need them this week.

I've had a pretty yucky week!! We drove to AZ (800 miles!!) for a funeral of a very dear friend. We took both dogs as we were going to stay at my in-laws. We stopped in Albuquerque and let the dogs get exercise, water, food, etc. By the time we got to AZ Jessie (my Cairn Terrier) wasn't looking too well. We thought she'd be fine because shes lived 10+ years with epilepsy, also she had a very bad bout with Liver problems in August, but she pulled through it. Well, by Friday afternoon (less than 24 hours after we got there) she was refusing to walk, but she had done that before so we let her be for a while. She was struggling to breathe and had peed all over herself and the bed she was sleeping in. She died at about 8 p.m. while we were doing dishes. She was still warm when we found her. It was the saddest thing!! We could have taken her to a vet, but she has had some major ups and downs and she was 13 1/2 years old. And it went SOO fast this time!! I guess that is the good part. But STILL we are all very upset over it all. My kids got a gruesome look at death with both "funerals" in one day. The next morning, Saturday, we buried Jessie on my in-laws property. Then, we buried our very dear friend. We stayed an extra day so we could plant a Day Lily for Jessie. We hated leaving her in AZ, where she had never lived, but it was going to be 2 1/2 days before we could leave after she died.

So, I'm a little uptight about Friday. I would die and my kids would absolutely be crushed if we lost two this week. Besides, we are much closer to Gracie because she is the pup full of life and spunk. I'm not sure if I should postpone it or not. It is very good timing for everything else. She should be healed before the busy summer vacation schedule, etc. What do you think I should do? Is there a ton of risk with a liver biopsy? I'm confused.

Sorry to ramble, but it's been a very long few days.


----------



## mckennasedona

Oh Karen,
I'm so sorry to hear what you and your family have been through. My deepest condolences on the loss of your dear friend and Jessie. 
I'm sorry I don't have any advice about risks for a liver biopsy but wanted to let you know that you, Gracie and your family are in our prayers.


----------



## pjewel

Oh Karen I'm so saddened by your news. It certainly has been a difficult week. I wish I could help with your question, but I don't know. My prayers are with you, Jessie, Gracie and your family as you get through this tough time.


----------



## Judy A

Karen, you have my deepest sympathy for the loss of your friend and your pet. That had to be a very tough time for you and your family. I can't help with your decision on the liver biopsy.....but I will pray for you, your decision and Gracie.......


----------



## Sissygirl

Karen,

I am so sorry to hear about your Cairn Terrier Jessie. It's such a hard time and I hope you remember all the special times with Jessie.

Praying little Gracie does well.


----------



## Leslie

Karen~ You have my deepest sympathy. What a horrible week you've had. I wish I could hug you in person but, this :hug: will have to do.

I think Cheryl and Jeanne (Maddie's mom)would be your best bets for getting answers to your questions about Gracie. I suggest you PM them and ask what they know.


----------



## juliav

Karen,

I am so sorry to hear about your friend and Jessie's passing. :hug:
I don't have any advice about the spay and biopsy, but wish Gracie and you good luck on Friday.


----------



## RikiDaisyDixie

*havanese health forum*

Do you know about this internet list? There are many people on the list with a great deal of knowledge who might be able to guide you.

Linda


----------



## Jill in Mich

Karen,

I'm so sorry to hear about Jessie and your friend. You've really been having a rough time of it. I hope things start looking up soon.


----------



## Lina

Karen, I am so sorry to hear about Jessie. I'm sure that Gracie will be fine, though I can understand you worrying about her. Keep us updated! :hug:


----------



## mellowbo

Awww Karen, this is so sad. The upside, if it is possible to have an upside, is that Jessie was so lucky to live a LONG life with a loving family who took excellent care of her.
I don't know how risky the liver biopsy is but if the specialist said it needs to be done then it is probably better to get it over with. If it needs treatment then the sooner the better and what better time than with a spay?
Try to take some deep breaths and relax. Soon it will be all over and I have a great feeling that Gracie will be happy AND healthy.
Darn old livers anyway!! I just learned I may have to have a liver biopsy myself! And we also have to retest Lulu's BAT, lol.
Carole
xxoox


----------



## Gracie's Mom

Thanks for the condolences for our Jessie Girl. We appreciate them. I'm sure she is resting in peace after being constantly chased by the little alpha - Gracie. Jessie was such a sweet, lovey, passive girl. She will be missed. Thanks for your kind words.

Well, I went in for Gracie's Clotting Test. We will get the results back in a couple of days. The vet said there shouldn't be any problems - though there is a risk with every surgery. They are going to be extra careful and there are 2 vets in that day. So, they believe she _shouldn't_ have a problem. I think I will move forward as planned.

Linda - I will have to check out the havanese health forum. I've never heard of it. Thanks!

So glad to be part of this wonderfully supportive group.


----------



## Gracie's Mom

Carole - Liver biopsy for you? I hope you are OK. When will you find out more? That's scary.

Is Lulu doing OK? I will be thinking of you during your follow-up because I know she's had some history to elevated BATs, too.


----------



## Laurief

Karen, I am so so sad to hear what a horrible week you had. Between your friend and then your "best" friend!! What a tragic way for things to happen! I am thinking about you and hope you are able to move on from all this tragedy. I am sure that Gracie makes your day a little better!!! She is always in my thoughts and I pray that the biopsy finally lets you relax and know that she is ok!!!

Carole - what????? Anything we can do for you?? 

Laurie


----------



## mellowbo

Karen, I'm trying to avoid the one for me! If anything comes of it I will let you know. 
As for Lulu, we are going to have another set of BATS next month. All this liver stuff drives me crazy!
If you hear ringing in your ears Friday don't worry, it's just me praying for Gracie!!!
Carole
xxoox


----------



## havaluv

Oh Karen, my heart goes out to you. I can't imagine a more difficult week than the one you have had. You'll be in my prayers. I'm so sorry for the loss of your friend and of Jesse. 

I think it is good there will be two vets there when Gracie has her procedure done. It sounds like good timing. I'm sure she will do well and then it will be over. If you postpone, you just have longer time to worry! Try not to worry, though I know it's hard, put it in God's hands and let him take care of it. 

Sending :hug: and good thoughts.


----------



## Me&2Girls

Karen, I saw your post in the rainbow bridge thread first - how horrible to have your little one die while you were away from home for another sad occasion. Prayers for your little Gracie that's for sure. I wouldn't wait - it's better to know something.


----------



## mellowbo

Karen, thinking about you and Gracie tomorrow. Let us know how great she does!!
Carole
xxoox


----------



## ama0722

Karen I am so sorry for your loss <hugs>

Amanda


----------



## mckennasedona

Karen, Gracie will be in my thoughts and prayers tomorrow (as will you!)


----------



## Leslie

Karen~ Special thoughts and prayers are with you and Gracie for tomorrow.


----------



## Cheryl

You are in our prayers. Let us know when Gracie is back home in your arms.


----------



## juliav

Karen,

We will be thinking about Gracie and you tomorrow.
Best of luck


----------



## Lina

Karen, I will be thinking of both of you tomorrow. Good luck!


----------



## BeverlyA

Karen,
My condolences on the deaths of your two wonderful friends. What a trying week that must have been. We had a couple Cairns before Cooper and although much different than Hav's, they too are a wonderful breed.

Good thoughts and prayers for little Gracie tomorrow for her spay and biopsy. Get lots of rest and remember to take care of yourself too.

Beverly


----------



## MaddiesMom

Karen- Thinking of you and Gracie tomorrow.:hug:


----------



## Gracie's Mom

I thought I'd leave you all with a couple of pictures I took of Gracie tonight. I gave her a super short haircut on Sunday at my in-laws since I had the clippers with me. Not 100% sure I like it, but it will help with recovery and less grooming when she won't want to be bothered. And it will grow back, right??

I'll keep you posted as soon as I get off work tomorrow. As always, your support is wonderful.


----------



## Redorr

Karen - Gracie looks adorable. Great job and you will be glad for the short hair post-surgery. All good thoughts for you both tomorrow.


----------



## JASHavanese

(((((((((((((((((((((Karen)))))))))))))))))))


----------



## JASHavanese

Gracie looks so cute with her new do. Best wishes for you both tomorrow


----------



## Laurief

:jaw: Oh my goodness - she looks like a little ANGEL!!!!

I love, love, love the haircut. Look at that cute little tusch!! Our prayers and thoughts are with you and Gracie today and cannot wait to hear how she is doing!


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## Judy A

She has such an angelic face....how sweet is that?! You will both be in my thoughts and prayers today.....


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## Leeann

We are keeping you and Gracie in our thoughts & prayers today Karen.:hug:


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## Sissygirl

Thinking about you and Gracie today. Wishing her a speedy recovery.


----------



## Posh's Mom

Gracie looks absolutely adorable in her cut. Wishing you the very best and a speedy recovery.


----------



## mintchip

:grouphug:Sending you and Gracie prayers and good thoughts.:grouphug:


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## Me&2Girls

Karen, Gracie looks like a puppy - you did a great job. Best wishes for a successful surgery and uneventful recovery!


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## mckennasedona

Oh Karen, she's absolutely adorable. You did a great job. 
It will be so much eaiser for her during her recovery time to have the shorter hair. 

Hugs and prayers for you.


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## marjrc

Oh my, Karen, I'm so sorry for your losses so recently! (((hugs)))) I only just got a chance to catch up and saw your post in the 'dedication' thread before coming here to see how things were with Gracie. What a sudden death! I'm so sorry, hon. You had no choice but to bury little Jessie in AZ and I'm sure she is with you no matter where her tiny body is right now. She had a good life with you. My sympathies for the loss of your friend as well. What a week!

I have been thinking of you and Gracie all week and am on tenterhooks wondering how she's doing today. Know that we are sending our live and prayers for a great outcome.


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## marjrc

Rikidaisy said:


> Do you know about this internet list? There are many people on the list with a great deal of knowledge who might be able to guide you.
> 
> Linda


Linda, do you have a link to this health forum, pls.? I can't seem to find it. thanks. 

Edited........... I think I may have found it. Is it here?: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/havhealthforum/


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## CinnCinn

OMGOSH, Gracie is such a dollbaby. LOVE the haircut. You can see her pretty face.

I can only imagine how challenged you feel right now, and hope you feel all of the prayers and good wishes. I felt them as I read through this thread. This group is truly the best support. )


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## Poornima

Karen, please accept my condolences on your sad loss of Jessie and your friend. You and Gracie are in my thoughts and prayers. 

Gracie looks so adorable in her new do. I am sure she will be more confortable without the botheration of brushing for sometime.

Wish you all the best!


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## juliav

Karen,

Gracie looks adorable in her puppy cut. You did a great job!
Again, best of luck today.


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## Laurief

Karen, any word on Gracie yet? When was she scheduled?


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## marjrc

I'm sorry that I forgot to comment on Gracie's new look! I love it!! Karen, you did an amazing job clipping her and it totally suits her. It's great, you should be proud.


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## Gracie's Mom

*Gracie is out of surgery*

You guys are wonderful - generous comments on Gracies' haircut, and sweet words for our little Jessie Girl. I'm not sure what I would have done without you this far. I'm an aide at a preschool a couple days a week and I think everyone thought I was off my rocker with the way I was worried sick today. So, I couldn't wait to get home to the people I knew could relate - you guys. Your support is really helping me through this difficult situation!!

I got news that Gracie made it through surgery OK. She is alert. I pick her up at 5 p.m. (MST) tonight. I'm excited to see her, but scared to take care of her. They said that her liver was a nice size, but the edges were more rounded than usual. I guess they are supposed to have some edges to them. Not sure what all of this means, but I'm guessing it is part of her liver problem. Does anyone know what disease/infection that would fit? I will be waiting (impatiently) for the next week to hear the results. But for now, I've got to celebrate the baby steps . . . she made it through surgery. Yippee!!

Thanks so much for all of your prayers and thoughts today. Now, I've got to run and get her a onsie. I'm thinking 0 - 3 month might fit her. Any thoughts?


----------



## Diana

Karen,
I am so glad to hear Gracie did well!! I don't know what would be the right size onsie for her, but Teddy weighs 9 lbs 12 oz and he fit in 18 months. I think it must have been shrunken though, it was from my kids!
I bet you can't wait to have that sweet little girl in your arms!


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## Leslie

Karen~ That's wonderful she's through the surgery and is alert! It's encouraging to read her liver is nice sized (Shadow's was only 60% normal size) I don't know what the rounded edges may mean but, I'll continue to pray for the best possible results.

I used a 0-3 mo. size onesie for Tori, she weighed 6.8 lb., and it fit fine.


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## Laurief

:whoo::whoo::whoo: Sounds like Gracie had a good day!! I am so happy that she made it thru surgery and her liver is of good size!! I am sure it is such a relief!!! Please let us know tonight how she is when you pick her up.


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## Gracie's Mom

Leslie said:


> Karen~ That's wonderful she's through the surgery and is alert! It's encouraging to read her liver is nice sized (Shadow's was only 60% normal size) I don't know what the rounded edges may mean but, I'll continue to pray for the best possible results.


Wow - 60%. Poor little gir!! I'm so sad that she had such a rough ending. I sure hope Gracies problem can be manageable.



Leslie said:


> I used a 0-3 mo. size onesie for Tori, she weighed 6.8 lb., and it fit fine.


Thanks - I going to get one now.


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## Beamer

Love Gracies new haircut! Kinda looks like my Beamer! 
Hope she gets better real soon!

Ryan


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## juliav

I am so glad Gracie is out of surgery, awake and alert. I can't wait to see Gracie wearing her new onesie.


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## mellowbo

Awake and ALERT! That right there is a wonderful sign. I'm so glad that's over. I just KNOW she is going to be fine!!
hugs
Carole
xxoox


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## Gracie's Mom

Well, shes home. VERY quiet and calm. They just injected her with pain medication. They couldn't find a pill small enough for her. (It is hard to break a pill up and give her 1/15.) The other medications would go through her liver and they didn't want that.  So, they used an injection and if she is in pain tomorrow morning I'm supposed to go back for another injection. I'm really hoping she is OK and won't need it. They said she is probably going to be in a little more pain than a usual spay because her incision is longer than usual. Plus, I had her 4 baby canines pulled today as well. 

I learned that her liver looked "plump" or sort of inflated a little more than a usual liver, hence the reason for the rounded edges. I sure hope she has something that is treatable. One good thing is that liver shunts cause a smaller liver. So, it is probably something different. I just don't know how I will be able to stand waiting for a whole week or more for the results.

I have to make sure she eats something tonight. Vet says its very important because they get concerned about glucose in small dogs especially if she didn't eat anything since last night. DH is out getting her a jar of chicken baby food. She thought even if it is just a tablespoon - that should be OK.

She will probably be fine tonight, but I'm going to fret for sure.


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## mckennasedona

Karen, I'm so glad she's home. Hopefully she'll enjoy a bit of the baby food and if she's had pain meds she'll probably get a good night's rest. 

Hugs!!


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## juliav

Karen,

I am glad little Gracie is home with you and hope that she will enjoy a bit of her baby food. Do you have a plan B, incase baby food doesn't work out???


----------



## Gracie's Mom

juliav said:


> Karen,
> 
> I am glad little Gracie is home with you and hope that she will enjoy a bit of her baby food. Do you have a plan B, incase baby food doesn't work out???


She mentioned regular chicken. But I don't have other ideas. Can you help me with some?


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## JASHavanese

So glad she's out of surgery. We're sending healing hugs to you both. This is going to be a long week for you but maybe we can help get you through it. :grouphug:


----------



## Sissygirl

Karen,

I am so glad to hear Gracie is home. Poor little thing she has been through a lot today.
Hugs to you both.


----------



## Laurief

Karen, Oh I am so glad that she is finally home with you, and I am sure she is happy about that too!
If you cannot get her to eat the baby food, what about just wet dog food. My guys would eat that right off my fingers. Mix in a little yogurt, or cottage cheese. Or even just give her a piece of cheese. Or are these things she is not supposed to have??? Here I probably sound like an idiot giving you ideas for foods she isnt allowed to have anyway! 
I am sure that just being home with you will help her heal much quicker, and I will say another prayer tonight that she heals fast & the test results are what you wanted to hear!!! Sleep well, even if you have to bring her to bed with you!!! 
Laurie


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## juliav

How about home made chicken soup??? It's fresh, tasty and smells great. My grandma always claimed it has medicinal value.  I just take fresh chicken and put it in cold water. When the chicken comes to boil, I just collect the brown (yucky stuff, sorry the foreigner in me doesn't know what to call it) until the water is clear. Than I add one whole onion, a celery stick (both of which I remove after cooking) and lots of baby carrots and salt the soup to taste. After the soup boils again, I reduce the heat and simmer everything for 45 to 55 minutes till the chicken is ready. In a separate pot you can make either pasta or rice (I prefer to make rice) to add separately to chicken and carrots with a bit (or a lot) of broth mixed in. You can either cut chicken and carrots (or no carrots) or use a food processor to make it baby food quality. Of course you can serve it with or without rice.

HTH,
Julia


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## JASHavanese

Gracie's Mom said:


> She mentioned regular chicken. But I don't have other ideas. Can you help me with some?


What about chicken or lamb baby food or Arby's cut up in small pieces.


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## Leeann

I am so glad to read Gracie is home, we will continue to send over some healing vibes for her and some hugs for you Karen.


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## Cheryl

The liver groups gives vanilla pediaure to the dogs who will not eat anything. A couple other options that you might have around and Roxie loves is scrambled egg or cottage cheese. Plain yogurt is also recommended. 

Karen--try not to think about the biopsy right now. The worrying is not productive. You have taken all the right steps to assure Gracie a healthy life. Just enjoy your baby. I have to agree with everyone that she looks adorable in her new hair cut.


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## Me&2Girls

Glad Gracie is home healing with you. Hopefully she'll eat. If you do run into a low blood sugar problem, you can use Karo syrup in an emergency or at the pet store they'll have a special paste called something like "Nutrical". They can get seizures if the blood sugar gets too low - but the Karo will pull them through long enough to get her back to the vets, or at least get her on the phone. BUT I'm sure she's going to be fine.


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## Leslie

Karen~ I'm glad to know Gracie's home. One of the few things Shadow ate when she was so sick was scrambled egg (done w/real butter). She also ate boiled chicken. She wouldn't touch the baby food. At one point I had to resort to the Nutrical Lisa mentioned.

I'll be praying for a comfortable night for her and a restful one for you both. As Cheryl said, try not to think about the biopsy (I know that's really hard) but, you have done everything you can at this point. Enjoy her. You are a wonderful "mommy" and Gracie is so blessed to have you. 

Hugs for you and very gentle belly rubs for Gracie.


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## mellowbo

I just keep thinking about Gracie. Such a little cutie. I love her haircut. Hugs to you and Gracie too.
Carole
xxoox


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## BeverlyA

I was so happy to hear that Gracie was able to come home! Hopefully she is eating a little bit and will get a long restful night.

Her haircut is adorable!
Take care tonight and gets lots of sleep yourself. Waiting for a good update in the AM.

Beverly


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## Gracie's Mom

You guys are great!!! Thanks for the food suggestions. Even the "Bad Food" for liver problems probably wouldn't do much damage since it is the only 1-2 tablespoons. Of course, I would try the "Good" stuff first, but we just need to make sure she eats _something_, It is only for the first night or possibly next day anyway. I don't want glucose problems in addition to the liver issues, ya know? So, I appreciated ALL of your ideas. She has eaten a little Chicken baby food. She refused at first, so DH recommended we put the food in a large syringe and "make" her eat it. So, we did that and she ended up getting a taste for it and was wanting more. We couldn't give her too much. But she was eating. Yippee!! I'm not even sure Chicken Baby Food is great for a dog with liver problems, but all I know is that right now I'm just nursing her back to health. We all know ice cream helps the medicine go down. She has NOT taken a sip of water - is this normal?

Also - She hasn't gone pee yet. I very gently took her outside and she just sat down in the grass and began licking her incision. She has only moved positions a couple of time since we brought her home. Is this normal? I thought she might have to pee or something. I probably shouldn't worry, but I am.

Thanks for your encourage words - EVERYONE. I wish I could reply to each one individually, but there are so many of you that it is hard to do. Please know that you are _all_ helping me out in a significant way. :grouphug:


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## Cheryl

Roxie did not pee until the next mornig. I think that they may be cathed in surgery, drink little after and so the pee is delayed. A chicken diet is the preferred diet in a liver dog with the only exception being nonmeat protein. Roxie is on a chicken based diet. 

I am glad things are going Ok with Gracie and thrilled you are posting (because I am checking every other minute). My prayers are withyou through the night.


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## Gracie's Mom

Thanks, Cheryl. So glad chicken is OK for her afterall. I won't worry about her peeing. I'm hoping she is moving around a bit more tomorrow because I feel helpless right now.


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## mellowbo

Yeah, it is normal to only change positions a couple of times. She's probably dopey and relaxed. Hmmmm, I would like to be dopey and relaxed about now, lol.
xxoox


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## Gracie's Mom

Yes, I know what you mean . . . I think I will go have a drink and crash with her!!!!


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## Cheryl

I think you deserve 2!:biggrin1:


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## Gracie's Mom

I was going to say 2, but I thought you guys would think I had a drinking problem. This WILL be me 2nd. eace:


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## Cheryl

I will help you sleep by having a drink for you. Just kidding, but I understand the stress you have been under. As I said before, I want to be here for you--even if that means having a drink (or 2) for you. :biggrin1:


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## Gracie's Mom

LOL - The more the merrier. Doesn't Ryan pay for rounds?


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## Judy A

Karen, I'm so happy to hear that Gracie is home now and at least trying a bite of food. Izzy stayed still and acted misserable for two or three days after her spay. She was all hunched and woudn't walk....but she was eventually her old self.
Doc just had his neuter yesterday and he peed when I got him home at three and didnt go again until 6 this morning even though he's been drinking water. I worried about going to bed last night without going, but he didn't wake me up. All he wants to do when we go outside is sit and lick himself.....


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## Laurief

I woke up this morning and the first thread I looked for was this one!! 
I hope that Gracie had a good night last night, and you were able to get some sleep yourself. With you getting rest, you will be best able to help Gracie thru her day today. 
I agree with all- try not to worry (I know, it is easier said than done) about the biopsy results. You cant do anything about it now, until they are in, so you would just be making yourself sick. 

Kisses, hugs, licks, and cuddles to Gracie from the 4 L's


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## Leslie

Just checking to see how Gracie is doing this morning


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## juliav

Just checking on our little Gracie girl.


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## Cheryl

I'll join the California team checking on Gracie this morning!!!


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## mellowbo

Just checking in with the rest of the gang. How's our little baby this morning?
xxoox


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## Gracie's Mom

Thanks for checking in. Gracie is doing well. She slept wonderfully. This morning she whined to get out of her kennel. She is very alert and gives us lots of kisses. She is sitting up more and moves around a lot more than yesterday. She still hates to walk - the incision place is bothering her because she is walking wierd. She doesn't seem to be whining in pain, so I think we will pass on the 2nd round of pain meds.

I took her out to pee and still nothing!!! She just sits there and licks her incision because that is the only time she has the chance to do it. The rest of the time it is covered with a onesie. I poked her tail through one of the leg holes and she pooped on her pee pad this morning (not pee). It was a very messy one, but somehow didn't get it on her onesie one bit. What a good clean girl!!!  Mama taught her well. LOL

I have forced 3 cc's of water in her this morning because she is not drinking. The vet is going to call soon to check in on her and I really don't want to take her in for an IV if she is not drinking. Yesterday they had to shave both legs because they couldn't get the IV in the 1st leg. I'd really hate for her to have to go through that again. She loves her chicken baby food though.

I think she is doing fairly well overall, if I can just get her to drink. I need to post a picture of her in her onesie - too cute!


----------



## Cheryl

I can't wait to see a picture of her in a onesie. I can't imagine her any cuter than the pcitures you just posted. As far as drinking: try getting her to lick an ice-cube. You can also try adding some water to her food and mixing it up on a small plate for Princess Gracie. She may like the "gravy" added to her food.


----------



## Gracie's Mom

As soon as I posted she started shaking and whining. I'm taking her in for another injection of pain medication. They can't give me any to give her at home, so it is before 12 p.m. today or wait until Monday morning. I think she is OK, but I hate to see her whine too much. I'm on the fence, but I only have 45 minutes to act. Gotta run.


----------



## Leslie

So glad to see Gracie had a good night and is moving around better. Karen, remember the baby food has a lot of "water" in it so, she would be drinking less. Don't fret too much about it. The ice cube is a great idea, Cheryl.

We posted at the same time~ I'd take her in if I were you...


----------



## Cheryl

Karen--I think you are making the right decision. You would hate to have to go to the emergency vet in a couple hours.

Keep us posted.


----------



## marjrc

Karen, let us know how she's doing when you get back... if you have a minute. I'm glad she seemed o.k. throughout the night at least. She's had a lot done, so I would imagine she'd be in pain for a couple of days. Sounds normal. 

Hope all is well now. Get some rest!


----------



## Gracie's Mom

Just got back. We didn't give her a shot. The vet gave one to me with specific instructions on how to give her one if necessary tonight.

Good news - she peed. On her onesie, but at least she was trying to use her pee pad. Bummer though our one and only onesie is wet and now she smells bad even after a sponge bath. But at least she went. So, while we figured something out while it was being washed she was extremely irritated with her incision and is going after it like crazy. Found one of my daughters old onesies that I ended up using out of her keepsake box. I'm not as attached to it as I once was. Anyway, throughout all of the craziness - I was downstairs and DH & kids were upstairs "watching" her while trying to figure something out themselves - she ran up about 5 steps with great speed before they caught her. I'm hoping she is going to be OK.

This is going to be tough few days.


----------



## pjewel

Aww, your poor baby. I hope she's feeling a lot better soon. Sending her a cyber hug.


----------



## JanB

Karen, I just caught up on this thread. First I want to extend my sympathy on the loss of your beloved Jessie and your friend. I am so sorry. What a horrific trip (((hugs)))

I'm so glad Gracie came through the surgery so well. I'm sending lots of prayers for complete recovery and for good news!


----------



## rockluvr

Hi Karen and Gracie,
Just checking in to see how our little Gracie is doing. Glad to hear she went pee. The bounding the steps - Roxie was doing that too AND jumping up on the bed. Really the only way to keep her from doing that is to keep her confined in her expen. I think I would do that through the weekend anyway. I know that is hard on you and her. Call me if you want to talk/vent.
Diana


----------



## Cheryl

Karen--I bought the onesies in a set of 3 and I am glad that I did because of what you just mentioned. Keeping her down is definately the hard part, but it sure does make the people in your house feel better to know that she is the same ole' Gracie!


----------



## Gracie's Mom

Thanks, Diana! I think she is fine, but it scared me when she darted up the stairs. Apparently, DH got after her (just saying 'no') when she started into her little frantic fit of licking/biting herself. I guess it scared her and she went looking for me. Poor girl has been through enough. I just want her to be out a couple more days before she goes crazy like this. Its tempting to drug her just to keep her calm, but I can't do that. I will confine her for now. 

Roxie and Gracie are wild ones!!! She was feeling well enough to "growl" at another dog at the vet. LOL


----------



## rockluvr

Karen,
So glad Gracie is feeling better today. Roxie didn't bother her incision TOO much, but I think the pain meds probably took away some of the itch. Did the vet leave long threads from the incision like mine did with Roxie? If so, the onsie might be rubbing against it and irritating it. Just a thought. Also don't know if it is recommended, but someone on the forum might know - can you put some people anti-itch cream on the incision?


----------



## ama0722

Karen- hugs, what a scary time but I am glad she is home though. i hope she settles down and the pain is less. Glad your vet was great about giving it to you. Good idea to keep her confined so she won't mess with it and hurt herself.

Amanda


----------



## Gracie's Mom

Yes, they left long threads. I'm tempted to cut them a little shorter, but I would probably get in trouble with the vet. I wonder, too, if the onesie could be irritating it more, but she sits calmly when it is on. So, I'm not sure. It would be great to put some cream on it. Maybe I should wait until the skin heals more? I would hate to have the cream go into her incision/body and cause problems with healing.


----------



## rockluvr

As I am remembering, Roxie was more bothered with her incision at the very beginning, but then just ignored it so maybe Gracie will too. I wouldn't cut the threads - I think it makes it easier for them to remove them. Also if she is content with the onsie on, then just leave it on most of the time. You may have to be ready to change it often to wash though. I'm guessing after this weekend and into next week, you may not need the onsie anymore. Good point about the cream and incision - maybe next week if she is still bothering it, ask the vet if they would recommend some cream.


----------



## mellowbo

I would also be concerned about the cream getting into the incision. Maybe you should ask the vet first. I know that with both of mine I could say "NO" and after a day or so they left it alone. Others have certainly used onsies with good results but I can understand your concern about it irritating the incision. Is it red at all?
It seems to me that I did keep them doped up a little on the second day and that helped. Does Gracie like wine? Of course red might stain her beard and it's not especially good for the liver either, LOL.
Good for you though!
Carole
xxoox


----------



## Cheryl

My vet says that the creams actually make the dogs lick more!!! And then they are ingesting the creams. Ycch!


----------



## Lilly's mom

Karen I am so sorry to learn of the passing of your Jessie girl and your dear friend. I am sure it was very hard to leave her in another state but your in laws will watch over her.

I am very glad Gracie is doing so well after her spay. She is such a cutie.

Katrina


----------



## Cheryl

I am hoping that both you and Gracie are asleep, but will post in the am that things are going better.


----------



## Me&2Girls

Sounds like Gracie is starting to feel a bit better. If the problem drinking water continues you can take chicken broth (low sodium) and mix with unflavored gelatin, refrigerate and then give her the broth cubes to "eat". But the baby food does have lots of water, so she's probably okay. Hugs to her today.


----------



## Cheryl

Karen--goodmorning! How are you and Gracie this morning?


----------



## Gracie's Mom

Lisa - My vet also suggested chicken broth (low sodium). Good idea to freeze. She is actually peeing now and doing OK with water, so thankfully she is drinking on her own now. I takes me forever to get her to pee outside. Its like she forgets why she goes out. So, she kept peeing in her onesie on her pee pad. Hopefully I can nip that - I hate washing 1 onesie.

We had a great night. No need for pain injection, yippeeee!!!! She whines sometimes, but I think it is because she is in her ex-pen so much that she need more attention. We do give her LOTS of love and time, but she is used to being out of it whenever we are awake. She wants to follow me around everywhere like usual. I'm thinking of taking a leash probably tomorrow when she can walk a little better and have her follow me everywhere. That way she won't escape and run the stairs. There is not much way I can baricade - I live in an old tri-level and there are steps in 4 different places. I think the leash is the best.

We are getting through this.


----------



## Me&2Girls

Oh I'm so glad Gracie is drinking water now. She's probably confused about the onesie - she's on her pee pad so why are things working, right? That's okay, at least she's remembering to use the pad. And she may be a bit confused from the anesthetic still. I don't think all dogs process the medication the same - plus she's got liver issues right? 

The leash sounds like a good idea or maybe keep her crate near you if you are going to be someplace for a bit of time like chattin on the forum or watching TV.


----------



## Lina

Karen, I'm glad to hear that Gracie is feeling so much better now! I hope you will be able to figure out what exactly is going on with her liver soon! :hug:


----------



## Missy

Oh Karen, I just caught up on this rollercoaster of a thread. I am so sorry for the loss of your friend and of Jessie. and, I am so relieved that Gracie has made it through her spay and biopsy so well. I hope it gives you some answers. How nice that both are done now. Hugs to you and your family and belly rubs for little Gracie.


----------



## mellowbo

Yea Gracie! How is she doing now??
Carole


----------



## Laurief

Hey - checking in to see how Gracie is doing?? Any test results yet??
\Laurie


----------



## maryam187

Karen, my oh my, just went through the last 10 pages. :hug: to read about your beloved Jessie. I'm glad she's at a nice and sunny place now in AZ. I'm looking forward to hearing more good news about Gracie's results. (((HUGS)))


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## JASHavanese

Gracie's Mom said:


> We had a great night. .


What wonderful news! You and Gracie have been in our thoughts.


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## Cheryl

Karen, I am not expecting your results for a couple days, but you have been in my thoughts more than you will ever know.


----------



## marjrc

Hi Karen and Gracie! How is our little patient doing? I think using a leash is a great idea! you will have her close by and it will be easier for you to spot her trying to lick or stop her from running off like crazy. She sounds like she's healing well. It's a tough time, the first few days, but it will soon be over. 

I can't wait to hear about test results, though I know these things can take time.... sigh...... Take care! ((hugs))


----------



## Leslie

Karen~ Just checking in to see how Gracie's doing and to let you know she's been on my mind and in my prayers. Sure hope you've been able to keep your mind busy with other things and not be too worried about the upcoming test results. :hug:


----------



## Gracie's Mom

You guys are the best - checking on my little Gracie!!! So sorry that I haven't posted or even looked on the forum for a couple of days. Gracie is doing pretty well - STILL wearing her onesie. The "itch" is getting better. She has used the stairs a couple of times - escaped us. She is avoiding going down the stairs now, so I'm assuming that it hurts a little. Of course - we don't let her, but she clearly avoids them. I hope she didn't hurt herself. She isn't playing yet, but she is play "biting" so I can tell that she is getting her personality back. She sleeps a LOT still, I'm guessing that is normal for recovery. She is getting her appetite back also. I'm thankful for that because I believe she was losing weight after surgery! I'm sure that is normal, but it is alarming because she is so tiny anyway!! So, I would say she is doing about as good as to be expected.

Still no news from the vet. They said 5 - 7 days and maybe more. So, it may be Friday or early next week before I know anything. I really HATE waiting. I've waited more than 2 months, and it is so hard waiting now that I know we are so close to knowing what is wrong. I'm praying for something treatable. I will share the news as soon as I know. At this point, I don't think it is a shunt at all because her liver has not atrophied at all.

I'll leave you with a couple of pictures of her in her onesie. It's hard to get a great picture when they lay down all day. The onesie says "You Can Call Me Princess". . . which by the way - her Moms name is Princess and she looks a lot like her, but smaller. I saw that onesie and thought it would be perfect for her. Don't you think she looks good in pink??

Hopefully I will have news for you soon. Pray for good treatable results. I'm trying to be optimistic these days. :angel: We need angels looking after her.


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## juliav

Karen,

I just love the second picture and Gracie is the cutest little thing.


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## havaluv

Karen, I'm jsut catching up on the thread, I haven't been on much the last few days, but I'm glad to read that Gracie is recovering and doing ok. She will keep getting better each day now, hang in there. I'll keep you and Gracie in my prayers and will be praying for good test results. She looks so adorable in her little onesie! (If you need more onesies, I got Ollies at Mervyns...5 of them for about 7 or 8 dollars!)
I just love the haircut you gave her, she looks absolutely perfect! :hug:s for both you and Gracie Girl!


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## Redorr

Karen - thank you for posting the pictures of our little princess. She looks calm. You have been such a trooper through all of this. I hope you get the news you want.


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## Sissygirl

Karen,

Little Gracie is just precious! I sure hope you get some good news soon.


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## Missy

Karen, little Gracie is just the cutest princess in the world. I am glad she is recouperating nicely. I think we are almost as eager as you are to get the results. Hugs and Belly rubs from me and the boys.


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## JASHavanese

She looks every bit the Princess and the shirt is darling on her. I hope you get good news. We're thinking of you both.


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## mckennasedona

Oh my, Gracie just looks adorable in her pink, princess onsie. Give her gentle tummy rubs from us and here's hoping for exactly the results you want.


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## maryam187

Oh my Karen, she really is tiny. She'll always look like a puppy, how cute is that?


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## Leslie

Karen~ I'm happy to read Gracie is "mending" well. She is the most precious looking little thing in her pink "Princess" onesie! Please give her a gentle belly rub from me.


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## marjrc

Oh my gosh, she's adorable!! Yes, Gracie is tiny, but she looks so sweet and cute. That onesie is perfect! lol 

sigh....... guess we'll just wait along with you, Karen. You're right - it IS hard to wait! :frusty:


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## Lina

Karen, Gracie is such a cutie pie! I'll be looking forward to the diagnosis, which hopefully will come sooner rather than later.


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## Me&2Girls

Love the princess onesie. Great news that her liver hasn't gotten smaller. Praying for an easy diagnosis and one that comes soon!


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## mellowbo

sweet, tiny, precious little Gracie!! I'm glad you don't think it is a shunt. Praying for an easy fix.
Carole


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## Gracie's Mom

I'm going crazy waiting!!! I called the vet at 11:25 and the receptionist said she was with another client. She said she (the vet) would call. I am dying to hear results. I don't know if they know the results, but they are bound to have SOME results back. It has been a full 7 days since the biopsy. It is now 2:10 - 2 hours and 45 minutes after my call. Suddenly, I don't feel patient anymore. I've waited for what feels like forever for a diagnosis. I'm guessing they are gathering information to give me as far as what is the next step. Or who knows - with my luck it will probably be inconclusive. LOL I'm nervous, but anxious to get the call.


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## Lina

Karen, I would totally call again if I were you. 2 hours and 45 minutes seems like a long time for someone to call you back. I can totally understand you being anxious. Hopefully you will hear something soon!


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## BeverlyA

Friday afternoon? I would call again and be polite and just say you are so very anxious that you can't bear to have to wait over the weekend to find anything out.

Beverly


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## Lilly's mom

Yes that sounds nice or just go sit in the waiting room if it is close enough.


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## mellowbo

I'm so sorry you have to go through this darn anxiety!! My prayers are with you!
Carole
xxoox


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## Gracie's Mom

I have to make this quick - it has been a very busy day . . . My son bumped into another boys head and we thought may have had tooth damage so we ran to the dentist for an emergency visit. Everything is fine there - yippee!!! Anyway - :drum: I need a drum roll . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Well, I FINALLY got a call. They have ruled out the cultures (viral, etc.) and Copper Storage Disease. She either has MVD or a Shunt - though the results came back mild. They vet is fairly convinced it is MVD. I'm being referred to an internist for more information on how to treat her. They will probably run more tests - MRI or Ultrasound with dye to see if it is a shunt. And if it is a shunt, if it is operable.

That is all I know for now. I'm sooooo soooo sorry - I've got a very busy night ahead of me and I need to run. I may not be able to post again tonight. Thanks all for your prayers. Its been a long haul. I'm thrilled to know what is wrong so we can make her as healthy as possible. But I'm sad that this is the news. BUT I've been convinced this is what she had very early on. I processed this "greiving" process a while back. She is very much loved and that is what counts right now!!! She truly is my little Princess Grace!!!


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## Posh's Mom

Thinking of all of your "babies." Best.


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## Me&2Girls

Karen, I'm sorry to hear it's MVD or a shunt, but at least the tests came back mild. You've really had a haul with this one and now your son's owie - at least that didn't require dental intervention.

Hugs to you and your princess Gracie.


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## Lina

Karen, I'm glad that you heard from the vet and that they were able to narrow down the possibilities. I'm sorry that it's MVD or a shunt, but at least it's a mild version so hopefully easily fixed. Hope both Gracie and your son feel well tonight!


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## Laurief

Karen, I am glad that at least you have some answers. NOw that that you know this, you can move on to the next step of either treatment or surgery. We will all be thinking of Gracie!!!! 
Glad your sons tooth is ok!! 
Laurie


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## dotndani

I finally got a chance to catch up on some posts and I read all that you are going thru.
My thoughts and prayers are with you and yours.
Dot


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## Leeann

Karen I am so happy you got the resuls, now you can go forward and do what ever Gracie needs along with all the love. We will continue to keep you and her in our thoughts and prayers.


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## MaddiesMom

Karen- I'm glad you're finally getting some information on Gracie. Just remember that dogs with mild MVD can live long lives with the proper diet and/or medication. Cheryl's Roxie has a mild form, and Cheryl can be a great resource for you. Give your darling little girl hugs from all of us.


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## Jill in Mich

Karen,

I'm glad you're finally getting some answers. Hopefully now you can feel like you're doing something versus just waiting and worrying about the unknown. Hang in there, you've really had a rough few months. Lots of positive energy being sent your way.


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## Cheryl

Karen--so our two princesses both have mild MVD. It's not so bad. Many dogs never develop symptoms even without dietary changes and or medications.

Did you read the article I posted on Mijo's thread? http://www.idexx.com/animalhealth/analyzers/snapreader/lr0905final.pdf

Perhaps it will be helpful to share with your internists since they are the experts in the field.


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## marjrc

Ah, shoot. I was hoping for all results to be negative, but yes, if it's going to be something, better a mild case of MVD. When they opened her up for the biopsy, they couldn't see a shunt then? That's why they feel they might have to run an MRI? She'll likely have to be sedated for that, I'd imagine. 

I agree it's better to know today than having to wait over the weekend. I'm so glad you grabbed the bull by the horns and called, Karen, in spite of being fearful about what they might tell you. I've been putting off Ricky's ALT test, but will have to get it done next week. I SO want it to be much lower than it's been for months now. 

Hang in there, girl. We are here for you, through thick and thin. Like Cheryl and Jeanne have said, there are diets, supplements and treatments available that can make Gracie's life long and healthy, so that's reassuring. ((hugs))


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## Leslie

Karen~ Not the best news but, not the worst either. Mild isn't so bad. It's treatable and hopefully she will never develop any major symptoms and will live a long normal life. I will continue to pray for the best for her, strength for you, knowledge and wisdom for her doctors. God bless you and little Gracie and, as Marj wrote, we are here for you through thick and thin!:hug:


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## Julie

Sorry I am just getting back to catching up on this thread. Gracie is absolutely adorable in her pictures with her princess onesie on.:hug:

I'm glad you finally heard back some results. I wish you the best of luck and good thoughts/prayers for a long happy life with Gracie. I don't know anything about this condition,but I hope it is something operable or controllable by certain dietary needs. I'm thinking about you and Gracie:grouphug:


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## juliav

Karen,

I am sorry to hear about Gracie's condition, but at least it's a very mild case.
We are thinking of you and your little princess,


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## Missy

awww Karen, I wish the news was better. But I am glad they think it is mild. And you seem to be very together. Handling things as they come. Hugs and kisses to you and Gracie from me and the boys.


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## Gracie's Mom

Thanks so much everyone for your encouraging words. I know Gracie will be OK. There is not much more we can do than what we have done and what is in our plans . . . So, I haven't wasted much energy being sad. It doesn't sound like she is terribly ill because of her "mild" diagnosis. She just needs a little extra care with supplements and diet. The specialist will just move us to the next step as exactly how to do that. I'm REALLY hoping for no more surgeries and no more terribly expensive procedures. So far we have spent nearly $1,500 on JUST the diagnosis (blood tests, ultrasound, antibiotics, liver biopsy NOT including spay), supplements, diets, etc . . . Please pray that we are near the end of our expenses. I think we will be able to manage just fine, just hoping for no shunt - that could really add up and be a different story.



Cheryl said:


> Karen--so our two princesses both have mild MVD. It's not so bad. Many dogs never develop symptoms even without dietary changes and or medications.
> 
> Did you read the article I posted on Mijo's thread? http://www.idexx.com/animalhealth/analyzers/snapreader/lr0905final.pdf
> 
> Perhaps it will be helpful to share with your internists since they are the experts in the field.


Cheryl - I just printed off the article. I tried to read it online and had a hard time scrolling up and down. I have a feeling it is going to be somewhat over my head, but I will read it and get what I can out of it.

Also - did Roxie have to go to a specialist for a diagnosis or was the biopsy enough. I'm just confused at why they couldn't tell us for sure by the biopsy. I'm thinking from what I've read that they can look a lot alike, but her numbers were not consistent with a shunt. Just curious as to how your process went. Is there a thread that documents your journey throughout this process that I can refer to?

Thanks so much for ALL of your help. Little Gracie & I give many hugs back. You've been a world of support to us.


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## Cheryl

Karen--we did the specialist at UC davis prior to the biopsy. No shunt and all lab work within normal limits. The biosy showed mild twigging within her liver. 

Read the article--it might by you some peace.


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## marjrc

I've read the article again. First time was in Jan. and I'd forgotten some things. There is no point in me showing it to my vet, since he's French Canadian and can't read much English. lol But..... I agreed with much of what they were discussing and learned a few things. Thanks for the reminder, Cheryl.  After reading it this past w/e, I'm even more determined to get Ricky's plaque problem resolved. 

Karen, right attitude, hon. There isn't much to do now but wait and retest later on. What are you paying for your Denamarin or Denosyl? I was paying $83 EACH month here at my vets', but have been buying them online from the U.S. for 2 months now at $44 which is a huge difference ! I tried the Monica Segal liver friendly diet but Ricky got very sick after on it for 5 days. I thought he was having another liver attack or pancreatitis, but his vomiting finally stopped after 4 days. It could well be that I didn't measure out the supplements in the diet correctly and so I decided to forget it and go back to Fromm's and other things. I certainly don't want to make him sick! 

So long as our babies are asymptomatic, it isn't so bad. We just have to remember not to worry so much! not easy, i know......... 

Hang in there!


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## Gracie's Mom

marjrc said:


> Karen, right attitude, hon. There isn't much to do now but wait and retest later on. What are you paying for your Denamarin or Denosyl? I was paying $83 EACH month here at my vets', but have been buying them online from the U.S. for 2 months now at $44 which is a huge difference ! I tried the Monica Segal liver friendly diet but Ricky got very sick after on it for 5 days. I thought he was having another liver attack or pancreatitis, but his vomiting finally stopped after 4 days. It could well be that I didn't measure out the supplements in the diet correctly and so I decided to forget it and go back to Fromm's and other things. I certainly don't want to make him sick!
> 
> So long as our babies are asymptomatic, it isn't so bad. We just have to remember not to worry so much! not easy, i know.........
> 
> Hang in there!


Marj - Gracie is on neither of those meds, but when Jessie was living we were paying like $80/month for her medication, but she was on a bunch!! My husband was the one who took care of all of the meds, so I'm not sure all that she was on. I believe - Phenobarbitol, Potasium Bromide (Both Epilepsy meds), Marin, Denosyl and more. I wish I had more info for you. Glad you found a great place to buy your meds. What is it called? I may use it if Gracie continue on hers for a long period of time.

I sure hope Ricky & Gracie end up just fine. I just wish you had a few more answers. Your right - worrying does no good.


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## Gracie's Mom

Gracie got her stitches out today. Yeah!! The vet said she is STILL waiting for the internist that specializes in MVD/Shunt to call her back. But after we talked we both came to the conclusion that is is most likely that she has MVD. We have decided not to do the further testing - probably. The vet and I need some direction as to how to treat her from here - diet, treats, supplements, etc. So, we are hoping the internist will take his time with the vet and give her answers over the phone. If not, I will most likely go see him and pay him for his advice. I'm guessing that we will probably check out her bile acids from time to time. But I believe she will most likely be OK. This really is comforting news.

I will post when I get direction on how to treat her so that it might possibly be helpful to someone else some day. We nearing the end of our long journey with her health diagnosis and treatment and it feels great to be on this side of it!!!! Thanks for the amazing support I have found here. *Every single person* that has posted in this thread has been a very important part of getting Gracie and I through this process. I feel like I will never be able to repay you. Please know - how much you are appreciated even if I never responded to every single person. If there is _*anyone*_ in the same situation - I would LOVE to help out. I need to at least pay it forward.

Thanks to everyone. This is such a wonderful community. Gracie has had so many little belly rubs and hugs from this group - she is completely spoiled by your love. Cheers, Hugs, Kisses (from Gracie), Smiles and a much needed drink for you all. Thanks!!


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## Lina

Karen, I'm so glad that it seems like your wait is finally over! And MVD is not so bad at all, just figure out her diet and she'll live a long and healthy life. That's great! :hug:


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## mellowbo

Yea for Gracie and Karen! I will be excited to know what her treatment is, if she even has one. It may just be a BAT each year as long as there are no symptoms.
Here's to you!:hug::tea:
Carole
xxoox


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## casperkeep

Hugs to you both!!!! I am soo excited for you!!!!


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## marjrc

Karen, I have been thinking of you and little Gracie for some time, but things have been a little crazy here for me and I haven't been able to get around to posting you. I am very glad that Gracie is o.k. and that with diet, supplements and a follow-up she will be just fine. 

You might want to check on the canine liver health website again for recommended diets. Here is a link: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/canineliver-d/files/ Check out the file named: "Liver Diet - Four Paws Five Directions.doc " It might be helpful.

So far, after Ricky's one week of 'liver friendly diet' with me adding supplements, vitamins, etc. into his meals, he was throwing up for days, just bile and only in the night and morning. I decided to stop it and just give him regular kibble (Fromm's and a bit of Orijen) with some cottage cheese, egg, or added chicken. In the past 3 weeks, though, I've been adding raw and meaty raw bones to the dogs' diet and they like it. I've given raw about 80% of the time this past week. I feel good about it and hopefully that will help Ricky's overall health more than anything.

I got the Denamarin from Petrx.com and you can get other meds and supplements there, such as Denosyl. I give Ricky the Denamarin every morning, an hour before he eats. It's a pain, but better than what others go through.

Good luck, Karen!


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## Redorr

Karen - how is little Gracie doing? I've looked for recent posts and don't see any updates. Did I miss something? I hope all is well.


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## Gracie's Mom

Thanks for checking in with me, Anne!! You are so sweet!! So sorry I haven't posted in a while. It is hard to spend much time at the computer these days with the kids out of school. They are taking over my computer with Club Penguin, Webkinz, etc. Arghhhh!!!! Also, I've been busy training for the Colorado MS-150 (a 150 mile bike ride in 2 days for MS), which is in 2 weeks. So much fun, but so much time and work!

Anyway, Gracie is doing well. We are just going to treat it as MVD - though we are not 100% sure, but pretty sure that is what it is. Liver shunt could be, but not as probable. She is on a low protien diet (Science Diet l/d - I know many prefer Royal Canine special diet but this was _highly_ recommended by our vet), plus she will continue taking Hepatosupport and SAMe for life. The internist agreed that she should stay with all of these dietary changes/supplements if she actually does have MVD. I could spend another $1500 for a cyntography (sp?). But it may tell me she has MVD for sure - which would not change our treatment any. If it showed a liver shunt (which we feel is very unprobable considering her ultrasound & bile acid results), it would be an additional $3,000 to have surgery!!!!!! I'm not sure I can do that because if that were the case I would spend _over _$7,000 on the problem alone. I'm not sure we can afford that with 2 kids anyway. So, the treatment we give her would really help the liver shunt as well. Whatever she has - the results came back mild. She is also showing no symptoms, and will revisit if necessary in the future. I know some may judge and say we are not doing everything, but I've got to draw the line of how much I can afford, how healthy is she now, etc. The vet agreed that she would do the exact same thing we are doing if it were her own dog. And she is a huge dog lover.

She is getting bigger - a whopping 4 lbs. 14 oz. on our scale at home (usually a bit heavy)!! So, I'm thinking she may some day be 6 pounds, if we are lucky. Regardless, she is as happy and as healthy outward appearing as any havanese. We are actually loving her size. So easy to carry and love!! I would rather have health, but we absolutely adore her the way she is.

Right now, I've been a 2 havanese owner (kind of). Gracie's sister is here visiting us for 2 1/2 weeks!!!! Talk about a grooming chore - they are both in various stages of blowing coat. Tonight, it took me _over_ 1 hour to comb Gracie alone. So, I gave her a bath just to help out - thinking a cleaner coat would be easier to maintain a blowing coat. So, after combing her, and bathing her - it took me an additional 10++ minutes to comb her out again. Roxie is almost finished blowing coat - so I am lucky I can complete her in about 20 minutes and she is more than twice the size of Gracie!!!!!! I'm worn out from grooming. Thank God Roxie is ahead of Gracie. I absolutely love these two little girls - but it is quite a chore to groom them. The girls are each others #1.

Marj - I'm going to check out that petrx.com since now I know what Gracie will be on forever. Thanks for the suggestion!

Karen


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## Missy

Karen, no one will judge you. I think you are doing great by Gracie and she is lucky to have you. I think all of that sounds real positive. Hugs and Belly rubs from me and the boys. (who are 5 times the size of your little Grace--LOL)


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## Salsa's Mom

I'm glad to hear Gracie is doing well and her results came back mild. Hugs and belly rubs to you and Gracie!


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## Me&2Girls

Glad Gracie's results were mild and you will be able to manage. Here's to having a girl grow to 6 lbs.


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## Cheryl

I am glad to hear that Gracie is doing well and has gained weight. Roxie gained 2# when we switched her to a low protein diet so maybe 6# will not be out of reach for Gracie.


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## mellowbo

Gracie is the cutest thing ever!! I love the little ones too. Your plan of treatment makes PERFECT sense to me!!
We love you and Gracie,
Carole


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## maryam187

Karen, sounds like you made the right decision for everyone incl. Gracie. Glad to hear she's slowly but surely gaining weight.


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## Redorr

Karen - So glad to get the update. Your plan for Gracie sounds like exactly what I would do. Only you know how to make her have a happy life. I was brought up in a home that would never have gone for any type of surgery on a dog or any other pet. I remember my best friend giving one of her two Weimeraners Tagamet back in the 80s when it was Rx and thinking "that's crazy? Meds for a dog?" So I am constantly wondering what it is that has dragged me into this life where I am giving Lola antihistamines and supplements, fretting over her food, inspecting her poop, staring into her eyes and pawing around in her ears. And even considering learning how to express anal glands! Good lord I hardly recognize myself! As in so many things we do what we feel is right. 
So glad your little furbaby is happy and growing.


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## MaddiesMom

Karen- Thanks for letting us know how little Gracie is doing. It sounds like you're on the right track if she's gaining weight. Considering her size, MVD would certainly be a high probability, and its treated by diet. 

Give that cute Gracie lots of hugs and belly rubs from all of us! :hug:


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## Jill in Mich

Karen, I'd be taking the exact same course of action you are. Keep up the good work!!!


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## Mijo's Mom

Karen, hugs to you both! You are such a great mommy to Gracie! Glad to hear she is doing well. Always in my thoughts and prayers...

Connie


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## marjrc

You know, Karen, you make the decisions (hard as they may be) that feel right for YOU. No one can know exactly what it's like to be in your place, so there is no need for judging. I think what you and your vet have worked out makes perfect sense for Gracie. 

You will see that the supplements are much cheaper at Petrx.com than at your vets, most likely. I missed out on a chance to get another month's supply shipped to hubby's office in the u.s., so will have to buy some at double the price from my vet. ARGH ! 

Nice to hear Gracie is doing so well. That is so reassuring.

Good luck in that ride you are training for! My gosh, good for you to be in such great shape. Do let us know how you make out, o.k.? 150 miles is a LONG trek!


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