# 12.5 week old night time crate vs expen



## astromd77 (Aug 10, 2015)

We are bringing Luna home next weekend and I'm trying to figure out if I should have her sleep in her crate and leave it open so she can relieve in her potty (breeder has litter trained) or close up the crate (it's configured to be just barely bigger than she is).

What do you guys and gals think? I'm leaning towards closing the door. I am up late and up early so I plan on taking her out before I go to bed (usually around 11pm).


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

a crate is short term confinement. If she's unattended for more than a couple of hours she needs access to a litter option.


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## astromd77 (Aug 10, 2015)

davetgabby said:


> a crate is short term confinement. If she's unattended for more than a couple of hours she needs access to a litter option.


Thanks. I was unsure because I have several friends whose dogs sleep in their crates at night with their doors closed. Then again, they don't have expens either.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

astromd77 said:


> We are bringing Luna home next weekend and I'm trying to figure out if I should have her sleep in her crate and leave it open so she can relieve in her potty (breeder has litter trained) or close up the crate (it's configured to be just barely bigger than she is).
> 
> What do you guys and gals think? I'm leaning towards closing the door. I am up late and up early so I plan on taking her out before I go to bed (usually around 11pm).


I kept Kodi in his crate and slept beside him at first so I could get him out to pee if he needed it. But I have RA, and need my sleep, so it was exhausting me, even though he was very good about it. So we just set his crate up attached to his pen and litter box. (like your breeder, mine also litter box trains the pups before they go home) He was fine from the first night, and I got the rest I needed to deal with him during the day. 

With Pixel, my husband had relented on the "no dogs in the bed room" rule, so her crate is on top of Kodi's right beside our bed. I was wondering how it would if we needed to do the ex-pen thing for her at night, because there isn't a whole lot of room for an ex-pen in the room. She got me up ONCE during the first week or so (she came home at 9 weeks) and from then on, has gone into her crate around 9PM and sleeps through till 7 or 8 in the morning. She's been the easiest puppy EVER. 

So I think either way can work, just be prepared to be flexible as you figure out what works best for you AND the puppy.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yes even 8 week puppies can sleep through the night, but if you can't be there to let them out to eliminate , you're looking for an accident. This is how pups sometimes will even poop in a confined crate. They should not be asked to hold it if they need to eliminate. An expen is the safest option especially when real young.


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

Molly has always slept in a closed crate next to my bed since I brought her home. At first I had to let her out for a potty break during the night, but that soon passed.


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## astromd77 (Aug 10, 2015)

Thanks for the responses. I'll talk to the breeder and see how she's been doing. Then I'll play it be ear. I like the idea of keeping the door to her crate open. Plus, her expen isn't that large anyway.


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

I used to wake up in the middle of the night - I would give Henry a pee-pee time, and then quickly back to sleep for both of us.
I didn't feel stressed first thing in the morning knowing that his bladder had had some relief.


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## Karen Collins (Mar 21, 2013)

A 9 week old pup should have no problem going 5 hours at night in a crate dry if they've been sufficiently pottyed before bedtime. Daytime is another story. They need a potty option every hour.

My puppies are all sleeping 5 hrs in a crate at night before they go to their new homes. I too have RA and getting up in the middle of the night is not an option. Midnight to 5 am is my preferred sleep window. And the young pups are easily trained to that.

Of course, with that said, if your pup has soiled their crate in 5 hrs, shorten the time rather than break up the time. So, get up at 4 instead of 5. Or go to bed at 1 instead of midnight. It only takes a few days for the pup to get it. My goal is to train them not to break their night up with a potty break. By 10 weeks you can usually extend the night to 6 or 7 hrs.


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## birgitb (Oct 1, 2015)

*Night time potty*

Hi, I'm adding to this thread with an additional question. Our puppy Lenny has been sleeping on average 5 hours at nighttime without waking. I read it is better to set an alarm and wake him to take him out than to wait until he wakes all by himself so that later on as an adult he leans to wait for me and not wake us.
What is everyone's experience with this? I've been doing both for the past week.
Right now he is 10 weeks and in a closed crate at night. I'm finding the sleep deprivation hard to take (I have CFS) but I also don't want to create bad habits so I'm sleeping in the living room (he's in the kitchen) so I can hear him.


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

I would never wake a sleeping puppy during the night to go potty. If they wake you and need to go out that is another story. It shoudn't take long at all for them to sleep through the night. Keep nighttime potty trips all business and right back to the crate when they are done. I tried to have Molly's crate in another room but found she slept much sounder in my bedroom. It is also much easier to hear them if they have to go out. Even as an adult she sometimes has tummy issues and needs to be taken out during the night.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

"Let sleeping dogs lie." goes for puppies too. I can't say how many have spent their first nights in a crate beside my bed, but I'm sure it's well over a hundred (and that's just my side of the bed), and the occasion is rare when they can't sleep for 8 hours at 8 weeks without having to get up.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

birgitb said:


> Hi, I'm adding to this thread with an additional question. Our puppy Lenny has been sleeping on average 5 hours at nighttime without waking. I read it is better to set an alarm and wake him to take him out than to wait until he wakes all by himself so that later on as an adult he leans to wait for me and not wake us.
> What is everyone's experience with this? I've been doing both for the past week.
> Right now he is 10 weeks and in a closed crate at night. I'm finding the sleep deprivation hard to take (I have CFS) but I also don't want to create bad habits so I'm sleeping in the living room (he's in the kitchen) so I can hear him.


I would NEVER wake a sleeping puppy (or baby!) Mine were both sleeping though the night (8 hours or longer) by 9 weeks or so. You DO need to get up when they need you, if they don't have access to (and reliably use) an indoor potty option.


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## Zoe093014 (Jan 27, 2015)

Just set them up in a small enclosed ex pen with bed or crate and an indoor potty option, pee pad, etc. This way you don't have to wake up.


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

Question on this topic, about not waking a puppy up to go to the bathroom at night....

Our dog trainer also told us to wake him before he barks (so if he tends to need to get up, say around 3am, get up at 230am before he barks and take him out). 

In any case, our 12 week old pup is sleeping well at night, but would love feedback still.....

*He ends up being crated at around 830p or so, when I put the kids to bed.
*I tend to wake him/take him out around 11p before I go to bed. 
*He then sleeps through until 6/630a, when we get up. 

Would you recommend that I do that? At some point, I'd probably take him out/for a final walk before I go to bed, so figure I'd just set that habit of going out then already, knowing he may go to bed later eventually. I don't want to keep him up until that last potty time at 11pm - I like my alone time too. :laugh2: 

So should I keep doing what I'm doing in order to set good habits and help him learn to go through the night still, or alter that plan? 

Thanks!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TamaraCamera said:


> Question on this topic, about not waking a puppy up to go to the bathroom at night....
> 
> Our dog trainer also told us to wake him before he barks (so if he tends to need to get up, say around 3am, get up at 230am before he barks and take him out).
> 
> ...


Had your puppy developed some sort of odd barking habit/pattern in the middle of the night? Is it possible that the trainer was trying to address this?

I have never, EVER heard anyone suggest that it's a good idea to automatically get a puppy up in the middle of the night. To me, that's the opposite of what you want. Obviously, if they need to go during the night, you need to get up with them. But USUALLY, if they are not disturbed, they sleep through the night when they are ABLE to sleep through the night. It's not a training issue, it's a maturity issue. Just like with little kids.

But none of mine have ever barked during the night either. If they have an urgent need to potty, (and it can even happen with an adult dog who has a tummy bug or eats something they shouldn't) they quietly whine. It's very clear to me that they have a problem. I wake up and take Kodi out, or take the little ones to the litter box.


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

I would never wake a sleeping puppy to go out during the night. I disagree with the trainer in that I want my dog to be able to tell me that they need to go out. Even though my dog is two and fully potty trained, there are times that she needs to relieve herself during the night, like when she has an upset tummy. She does let me know and I am glad. Molly falls asleep in the evenings while I am watching tv downstairs. When I am ready to go up to bed I take her out one last time. It is usually between 10 and 11. You can try not waking your puppy for that last potty trip but you will know soon enough if they can sleep through until morning or not.


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> Had your puppy developed some sort of odd barking habit/pattern in the middle of the night? Is it possible that the trainer was trying to address this?
> 
> I have never, EVER heard anyone suggest that it's a good idea to automatically get a puppy up in the middle of the night. To me, that's the opposite of what you want. Obviously, if they need to go during the night, you need to get up with them. But USUALLY, if they are not disturbed, they sleep through the night when they are ABLE to sleep through the night. It's not a training issue, it's a maturity issue. Just like with little kids.
> 
> But none of mine have ever barked during the night either. If they have an urgent need to potty, (and it can even happen with an adult dog who has a tummy bug or eats something they shouldn't) they quietly whine. It's very clear to me that they have a problem. I wake up and take Kodi out, or take the little ones to the litter box.


Thanks for the advice....

No, Lincoln has never had a barking problem at night. He initially was crying in the crate, but we have gotten past that. I think she said to do that so that Lincoln learns that I don't just open the crate door when he's barking or demanding to be let out. So she said to make sure to let him out to go potty just before he usually wakes so it's on my terms and he learns to "conform" to that schedule.

If he goes to "bed" at 8/830p, should I just let him sleep until he decides to wake/needs to pee? (I have a monitor by my bed to hear him as he's in his crate downstairs, so I could hear minor whimpering.)


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

Molly120213 said:


> I would never wake a sleeping puppy to go out during the night. I disagree with the trainer in that I want my dog to be able to tell me that they need to go out. Even though my dog is two and fully potty trained, there are times that she needs to relieve herself during the night, like when she has an upset tummy. She does let me know and I am glad. Molly falls asleep in the evenings while I am watching tv downstairs. When I am ready to go up to bed I take her out one last time. It is usually between 10 and 11. You can try not waking your puppy for that last potty trip but you will know soon enough if they can sleep through until morning or not.


Thanks for the tips....I do want him to be able to tell me when he needs to go, but also learn to hold it - which it sounds like will happen over time, and that I am lucky overall how much he can hold it already at 12 weeks.

While Lincoln is sleeping in his crate from about 8/830p on, I go to bed around 10/11p, so figured I should take him out to pee then (which I have been doing and he then goes until about 6am). Would that be similar to what you're doing, or since he's in his crate versus out in the open dozing, I should treat it differently - that it's bedtime and he needs to tell me when to go.


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

I think with a 12 week old puppy I would make the last trip out to potty when you go to bed. Molly never asks to go out for that last trip of the night. I just take her. She is probably old enough where she could have an earlier "last call" but that is our routine now and it works for us. If you don't want to wake your puppy you could certainly try leaving him asleep in the crate. The worst that will happen is you get an early wake up call in the morning for potty because he can't hold it that long.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TamaraCamera said:


> Thanks for the advice....
> 
> No, Lincoln has never had a barking problem at night. He initially was crying in the crate, but we have gotten past that. I think she said to do that so that Lincoln learns that I don't just open the crate door when he's barking or demanding to be let out. So she said to make sure to let him out to go potty just before he usually wakes so it's on my terms and he learns to "conform" to that schedule.
> 
> If he goes to "bed" at 8/830p, should I just let him sleep until he decides to wake/needs to pee? (I have a monitor by my bed to hear him as he's in his crate downstairs, so I could hear minor whimpering.)


Sorry, but that's crazy. How can you make an animal (or human) "conform" to your plans for when he should need to eliminate. Certainly you don't want to respond to unnecessary demand barking. But when your puppy finally tells you he needs to go out by barking at the door, do you REALLY want him to wait for a better time? (and risk a puddle on the floor) Or do you want to praise him to high heavens for letting you know he needed to go out?

Putting him to bed a 8:30 is AWFULLY early if you want him to sleep through till the morning. Do YOU go to bed that early? If not, take him to potty one last time just before you go to bed. He should be able to make it through for at least 8 hours most of the time at this point.


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## Zoe093014 (Jan 27, 2015)

Molly120213 said:


> I would never wake a sleeping puppy to go out during the night. I disagree with the trainer in that I want my dog to be able to tell me that they need to go out. Even though my dog is two and fully potty trained, there are times that she needs to relieve herself during the night, like when she has an upset tummy. She does let me know and I am glad. Molly falls asleep in the evenings while I am watching tv downstairs. When I am ready to go up to bed I take her out one last time. It is usually between 10 and 11. You can try not waking your puppy for that last potty trip but you will know soon enough if they can sleep through until morning or not.


I do the same thing. Zoe falls asleep on the sofa and I take her to potty before she goes in for the night. Even if she doesn't have to go then, she is good until morning.


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> Sorry, but that's crazy. How can you make an animal (or human) "conform" to your plans for when he should need to eliminate. Certainly you don't want to respond to unnecessary demand barking. But when your puppy finally tells you he needs to go out by barking at the door, do you REALLY want him to wait for a better time? (and risk a puddle on the floor) Or do you want to praise him to high heavens for letting you know he needed to go out?
> 
> Putting him to bed a 8:30 is AWFULLY early if you want him to sleep through till the morning. Do YOU go to bed that early? If not, take him to potty one last time just before you go to bed. He should be able to make it through for at least 8 hours most of the time at this point.


Well we put him in his crate at 830pm because we are putting kids to bed, and then we have things to do. He ends up falling asleep. So essentially, yes, he does go to bed then. I then take him out before I go to sleep for the night at 1030/11pm. When he is potty-trained fully, and can be reliable in a carpeted room, I'm sure he won't go in his crate until later. Overall, she just means that they can learn to adjust to your schedule/hold their pee over time.

Regarding the scheduling, I think she just meant that if you take him out according to your bedtime schedule, he would learn that that was the last time to go potty for the night (overall; of course things pop up). It has worked so far - he ends up going from when I last take him out until when we get up at 6/630am.


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## LochTess (Aug 22, 2009)

You're all so lucky your pups let you sleep a little later in the morning!!

I take Kylie out around 10:30–11 before I go to bed and he sleeps in a closed crate next to my bed soundly through the night but every morning he wakes me up twice between 2–5AM. Once because he has to pee and another time to poop. Each time I take him to his Xpen where we have the potty system and he pee's then he goes back to sleep until he barks and then I take him to poop. 

I don't want to take him out of the crate when he barks but I know he has to pee or poop so I hope I'm doing the right thing… He's a little over 12 weeks and I'm hoping sooner than later he'll be able to hold it longer. I tried feeding him earlier but that doesn't seem to make a difference.

I usually wake up at 5:30 so I'm not getting much sleep these days!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TamaraCamera said:


> Well we put him in his crate at 830pm because we are putting kids to bed, and then we have things to do. He ends up falling asleep. So essentially, yes, he does go to bed then. I then take him out before I go to sleep for the night at 1030/11pm. When he is potty-trained fully, and can be reliable in a carpeted room, I'm sure he won't go in his crate until later. Overall, she just means that they can learn to adjust to your schedule/hold their pee over time.
> 
> Regarding the scheduling, I think she just meant that if you take him out according to your bedtime schedule, he would learn that that was the last time to go potty for the night (overall; of course things pop up). It has worked so far - he ends up going from when I last take him out until when we get up at 6/630am.


So then what would be the point of waking him up in the middle of the night?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

LochTess said:


> You're all so lucky your pups let you sleep a little later in the morning!!
> 
> I take Kylie out around 10:30-11 before I go to bed and he sleeps in a closed crate next to my bed soundly through the night but every morning he wakes me up twice between 2-5AM. Once because he has to pee and another time to poop. Each time I take him to his Xpen where we have the potty system and he pee's then he goes back to sleep until he barks and then I take him to poop.
> 
> ...


Every puupy matures at a different rate. I'd keep doing what you're doing. He'll get it before too long!


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> So then what would be the point of waking him up in the middle of the night?


Well, I meant waking him up at 11pm when I go to bed (so I guess I shouldn't say "middle of the night").....wondering if I should even be doing that, since eventually, I imagine he will go to bed closer to 10/11p or so (when he is fully house-trained and could hang with us in the family room) and his last potty will be then anyhow. But from what it seems like, that's okay to do. I certainly don't wake him any other time.

The trainer though, initially, suggested if he was waking up at 3am, which he was, to wake him up slightly before. Her stance was what I mentioned before. But since he doesn't wake in the middle of the night anymore, I don't wake him other than the "last potty" at around 11pm (give or take 30 mins).


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## LochTess (Aug 22, 2009)

krandall said:


> Every puupy matures at a different rate. I'd keep doing what you're doing. He'll get it before too long!


 I'm so happy I went with the indoor potty system because otherwise I'd be going out in the dark between 2- 4AM!! Thanks to you and all the people that suggested it!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TamaraCamera said:


> Well, I meant waking him up at 11pm when I go to bed (so I guess I shouldn't say "middle of the night").....wondering if I should even be doing that, since eventually, I imagine he will go to bed closer to 10/11p or so (when he is fully house-trained and could hang with us in the family room) and his last potty will be then anyhow. But from what it seems like, that's okay to do. I certainly don't wake him any other time.
> 
> The trainer though, initially, suggested if he was waking up at 3am, which he was, to wake him up slightly before. Her stance was what I mentioned before. But since he doesn't wake in the middle of the night anymore, I don't wake him other than the "last potty" at around 11pm (give or take 30 mins).


I think a "last potty call" makes perfect sense. We do the same thing as humans.

Istill totLly disagree with your trainer. That 3AM potty call is one of need, not "demand barking". Puppies grow out of that all by themselves... If you let them, and don't TRAIN them to get up in the middle of the night!


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## Karen Collins (Mar 21, 2013)

It sounds like your trainer is suggesting that you wake your pup before he wakes you so you don't end up rewarding crate barking. But thats a moot issue, since your pup is not waking you. Never wake a dog in the middle of the night. Or you will be teaching him that you WANT him to wake up and potty. Keep doing what you're doing.


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> I think a "last potty call" makes perfect sense. We do the same thing as humans.
> 
> Istill totLly disagree with your trainer. That 3AM potty call is one of need, not "demand barking". Puppies grow out of that all by themselves... If you let them, and don't TRAIN them to get up in the middle of the night!


I guess I am lucky Lincoln "grew out" of the middle of the night potty needs (of course, it may come up occasionally still) so I don't even have to think about what the trainer said. ;-) He is consistently going from about 10/11p-6/630a. Last 2 nights he even went from 930p-630a. I tried to see if he wanted to go out again later than that, like around 1030p, but he wasn't interested and just kept resting. :wink2:


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

Karen Collins said:


> It sounds like your trainer is suggesting that you wake your pup before he wakes you so you don't end up rewarding crate barking. But thats a moot issue, since your pup is not waking you. Never wake a dog in the middle of the night. Or you will be teaching him that you WANT him to wake up and potty. Keep doing what you're doing.


Great point - the way you said it makes perfect sense. I had asked her about potentially training him to wake up in the middle of the night to pee, and my concern about doing that. It's great that I don't have to even have to worry about it, since within 3-4 days of her saying that and me stopping the 3am thing, he started going through the night. :wink2:


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