# Growling/biting -looking for help



## Chippers77 (Jun 9, 2020)

Hi - I have an 8 month old male Havanese. Most of the training going well. In the last month or so he reacts with a bite or growl if he is stroked while sleeping. Doesn’t seem to matter who in household pets him. Anyone else experience this?


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

He should be going through the biting stage with typically stops around 7-months. That's the time you work on teaching - No Biting. If he bites when stroked or anytime display your unhappiness by saying - Ouch! No! and place him in a Time Out for a minute or two. 

While playing if he bites - Remove your hands and back off and don't continue to play or interact with him. Tell Him No! Don't tease to encourage biting.

Puppies have to learn how to bite softly - play biting. Placing their teeth on you is OK but biting is Not OK. 

It's important to be consistent. Havanese are very smart and learn quickly. They want to Please. He's probably playing and hasn't been taught he cannot bite hard.


----------



## Chippers77 (Jun 9, 2020)

Thanks for the tips. What concerns me most is why he’d bite (by that meaning he breaks the skin - not play biting). He does this in evening if anyone tries to strike or pet him. 
Can that be trained out of him some way or should we get a den-like bed so he can go to sleep and no one bothering him?


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

This is really VERY late to be still puppy-biting. I would talk to a local positive-based trainer who can look at the whole picture and see what is going on. The first thing I'd do is have a whole physical and make sure there isn't something physically wrong with the dog. For instance, can he hear properly? Or is he being startled out of his sleep and feeling defensive because he doesn't notice someone is near him?


----------



## Chippers77 (Jun 9, 2020)

krandall said:


> This is really VERY late to be still puppy-biting. I would talk to a local positive-based trainer who can look at the whole picture and see what is going on. The first thing I'd do is have a whole physical and make sure there isn't something physically wrong with the dog. For instance, can he hear properly? Or is he being startled out of his sleep and feeling defensive because he doesn't notice someone is near him?


Thanks he had been to the vet and all is fine. 2 months ago he was bitten and shaken by our neighbor’s boxer. Pulled fur right out by the roots. Their boxer escaped from their house. Ours was on a leash. 
Thankfully he does still like small dogs and we have introduced him to some new fur buddies and he plays nice. He will growl and he nervous around big dogs. I wonder if when he is startled awake he thinks he is being attacked? Not sure. Took him to a trainer who wants us to make sure he earns his treats. In crate at various times (3 hrs total a day) with a special treat . And get him used to be groomed/touched on our center island while one feeds him a high value treat. We have snd continue to do that and he has always spent overnight in his crate (maybe that creates the issue as he feels safe there)? But he doesn’t want to go to bed without us (crate is beside the bed). So he falls asleep on the rug. But once he is in that deep sleep it is pet him at your own risk. Going to try waking him with noise and treats to see how that goes.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ohh! I remember about your poor boy! He has had a REALLY traumatic event in his life! I would worry a LOT less about him "earning" his treats", and a LOT more about just nurturing him and making him feel loved and supported. 

And part of that means, for now, NOT startling him when he's asleep! I think I would start using a special sing-song type phrase that the whole family will use as a wake-up cue for him. In the beginning, do NOT use it for waking him up. In the beginning, make the sound, Let's use "wakey, wakey" as an example, but it can be ANYTHING you want, and give him a REALLY SMELLY, HIGH VALUE treat, like a little piece of chicken sausage. For nothing. All he has to do is listen to your sing-song, and get his treat. Don't call him to you... you go to him. Then give him a pat and walk away. When he starts to show that he recognizes that "wakey-wakey" signifies that something REALLY GOOD is coming, it's time to try it when he's sleeping. 

Approach him, but DO NOT touch him. Sing your little song and have the smelly treat ready. He will probably open his eyes and start to sniff for the sausage. When he shows that he wants it, hand it to him, STILL don't touch him, tell him what a good boy he is and walk away. Do that for a week. The SECOND week, if he is responding positively and consistently, you can start to pat him once he is fully awake. 

Slowly, over a LONG time, you will be able to fade to lower value treats and then no treats. It may be a VERY long time, if ever, before you can wake him from a sound sleep without some cue. He has had a REALLY traumatic experience at a VERY impressionable age and it has left some serious marks on his little soul.


----------



## Chippers77 (Jun 9, 2020)

krandall said:


> Ohh! I remember about your poor boy! He has had a REALLY traumatic event in his life! I would worry a LOT less about him "earning" his treats", and a LOT more about just nurturing him and making him feel loved and supported.
> 
> And part of that means, for now, NOT startling him when he's asleep! I think I would start using a special sing-song type phrase that the whole family will use as a wake-up cue for him. In the beginning, do NOT use it for waking him up. In the beginning, make the sound, Let's use "wakey, wakey" as an example, but it can be ANYTHING you want, and give him a REALLY SMELLY, HIGH VALUE treat, like a little piece of chicken sausage. For nothing. All he has to do is listen to your sing-song, and get his treat. Don't call him to you... you go to him. Then give him a pat and walk away. When he starts to show that he recognizes that "wakey-wakey" signifies that something REALLY GOOD is coming, it's time to try it when he's sleeping.
> 
> ...


thank you so much for that suggestion. Going to give that a try. Appreciate your feedback.


----------



## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

Denver has issues being startled while asleep or resting, where if we moved or stood up he would go on the defensive (we still don’t know where this came from as it appeared after his post-neuter shave and no other events we can think of) .. so what we do is say his name so he moves his head, then toss kibbles so he gets up and then we can move around And he doesn’t react. Our trainer is trying to elicit a Pavlovian response to us moving our feet while he’s laying down = treats. We “forget” once in a while and it’s gotten SO much better.

So I definitely recommend seeing a trainer. See if you can get this on video to send them so they can see it. Sometimes we are unknowingly doing something without realizing that makes the situation worse.


----------



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I do think growling is often broadly labeled as aggressive misbehavior, but sometimes it’s communication built on a reasonable reaction to a terrible experience. It’s still important to be extremely careful and work on it with a good behaviorist, but it’s also important to respect that he’s fearful of being startled, and he doesn’t like to be touched when he’s sleeping. I think Karen’s advice is right on, and I think you are on the right track, just go slow. The goal is to help him feel secure, then build on it.


----------



## Chippers77 (Jun 9, 2020)

Wulfin said:


> Denver has issues being startled while asleep or resting, where if we moved or stood up he would go on the defensive (we still don’t know where this came from as it appeared after his post-neuter shave and no other events we can think of) .. so what we do is say his name so he moves his head, then toss kibbles so he gets up and then we can move around And he doesn’t react. Our trainer is trying to elicit a Pavlovian response to us moving our feet while he’s laying down = treats. We “forget” once in a while and it’s gotten SO much better.
> 
> So I definitely recommend seeing a trainer. See if you can get this on video to send them so they can see it. Sometimes we are unknowingly doing something without realizing that makes the situation worse.


Yes although being bitten by neighbor‘S dog he was also neutered a week after that so the bite may not even be relevant. Do think making being waken = treats a positive experience the better way to go.

I had a private consult with a trainer last week. Her observation was he’s nervous scared (but she provoked that to see his response. He usually loves people so this was first time I noted that behaviour). She wants us to ensure he earns his treats snd reinforce touch with high value foods. Use a house line to get him off sofa and beds (but he is a lazy pup and won’t jump up anyways. We would bring him up but won’t anymore). Trainer feels he needs to understand his place/role in family and gain confidence. I will book another session in a month’s time. Taking a video of this behaviour is a good idea to show to trainer.


----------



## Chippers77 (Jun 9, 2020)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I do think growling is often broadly labeled as aggressive misbehavior, but sometimes it’s communication built on a reasonable reaction to a terrible experience. It’s still important to be extremely careful and work on it with a good behaviorist, but it’s also important to respect that he’s fearful of being startled, and he doesn’t like to be touched when he’s sleeping. I think Karen’s advice is right on, and I think you are on the right track, just go slow. The goal is to help him feel secure, then build on it.


thank you for taking time to reply. Really hoping this will correct as he is such a great pup. Been easy to potty trained with bell training and he picks up on tricks quickly. Walking on leash too going well.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Susan Tipper said:


> Yes although being bitten by neighbor‘S dog he was also neutered a week after that so the bite may not even be relevant. Do think making being waken = treats a positive experience the better way to go.
> 
> I had a private consult with a trainer last week. Her observation was he’s nervous scared (but she provoked that to see his response. He usually loves people so this was first time I noted that behaviour). She wants us to ensure he earns his treats snd reinforce touch with high value foods. Use a house line to get him off sofa and beds (but he is a lazy pup and won’t jump up anyways. We would bring him up but won’t anymore). Trainer feels he needs to understand his place/role in family and gain confidence. I will book another session in a month’s time. Taking a video of this behaviour is a good idea to show to trainer.


Terms like “he needs to understand his place/role in the family” or warning flags to me that this is NOT the right kind of training for a traumatized dog. Not even a dog... a PUPPY!!! This sounds a LOT more like dominance training. This is NOT a dog showing dominance. I really think you need to find a different kind of help, from a more positive based trainer, or better yet, a behaviorist.


----------



## Chippers77 (Jun 9, 2020)

krandall said:


> Terms like “he needs to understand his place/role in the family” or warning flags to me that this is NOT the right kind of training for a traumatized dog. Not even a dog... a PUPPY!!! This sounds a LOT more like dominance training. This is NOT a dog showing dominance. I really think you need to find a different kind of help, from a more positive based trainer, or better yet, a behaviorist.


i don’t think she (trainer) meant those terms in a mean way. She doesn’t believe in scolding or negative consequences. Just works with dogs natural disposition to please and to show him good things from his crate, touch, from commands etc.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Interesting Thread. Susan keep in touch and let us know how the Wakey-Wakey positive reinforcement training goes.

Is your puppy a hard sleeper? Patti always opens her eyes if approached while asleep. I don't know that I could sneak up on her.

To trained Patti to Come using Chicken as a special Treat. EVERY TIME! when I said: Patti Come! ... I gave her Chicken. It wasn't too long before she figured it out and she now readily comes EVERY TIME when I call her.

Sometimes it's an emergency when she occasionally gets away from us and takes off. Saying: Want Chicken - Patti Come! ... does the trick. Stopping her in her tracks. 

However, if she spied and went after a rabbit or deer I think I maybe **** out of Luck even with Chicken. 

Havanese are so smart, want to to please and they learn so quickly with positive reinforcement.

Good Luck!!


----------



## Chippers77 (Jun 9, 2020)

Mikki said:


> Interesting Thread. Susan keep in touch and let us know how the Wakey-Wakey positive reinforcement training goes.
> 
> Is your puppy a hard sleeper? Patti always opens her eyes if approached while asleep. I don't know that I could sneak up on her.
> 
> ...


Thank you - my own Hav is so motivated by food too.

It’s in the evening where the growling/bite happens. I think he goes into a deep sleep. I even see his eyes roll back into his head. But I do take him either for a long walk 6km or to the dog park where he plays with same group of small dogs each time. We have a little FB group and arrange times to meetat the park. Do he is definitely tired in the evening. On rare occasion he doesn’t get exercise like this he is non stop bugging us to play. I had read the breed gets enough exercise on short 20 min walks or play around the house but that is not the case with my Havanese.

I have started the ‘wakey wakey’ offering chiicken during the day-1st day trying snd his head sure turns after just a few times of doing this. Will be curious to see how this goes when he is asleep but going to wait a week.

thanks everyone for help and comments. Love the suggestions.


----------



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I get what you’re saying. I think there is a subtle but important difference in how people use “training lingo” to listen for. Saying, “let’s get her to work for those treats,” because the trainer’s goal is to give frequent treats and have her practice skills all throughout the day, is intended to build the relationship of the dog and the human and provide opportunities to increase praise. “Have her work for the treats,” can also imply using the treats to teach discipline in a different way, by withholding the treat until she’s worked really hard. Sometimes trainers use these kinds of phrases in different ways because people are used to hearing them. “Know her place” is less likely because good trainers and behaviorist are hyper aware of this one, so if those were her exact words, I’d be cautious. It’s possible for someone to mean “feel secure and protected in her place in the family,” but the phrase is commonly associated with dominance based training, and often dominance based trainers consider themselves to be positive trainers. “Hybrid” forms of dominance training that use some positive training methods but are rooted in pack theories are still not good for Havanese, IMO. As long as you are listening for those differences, and the goal is to help her feel safe, secure, and confident, I think that’s a good thing. Self control and regular house training issues will come very easily when those things are in place, especially for Havanese, who live to please. This is true whether or not a puppy has been traumatized.


----------



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Also want to add, my Havanese will never get tired from exercise alone. He’ll be tired that night, but if we were to go on a hike with him, when we get home he’ll be so excited about the hike he’ll still want to play. He is so pleasing, even if he IS tired, he’ll keep going. The way we manage this is practicing skills, and training, not exercise. 5 minutes of practicing sit, reach, nose, spin, etc. followed by some belly rubs, and Sundance will lay down on his own because he’s tired.


----------



## Chippers77 (Jun 9, 2020)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I get what you’re saying. I think there is a subtle but important difference in how people use “training lingo” to listen for. Saying, “let’s get her to work for those treats,” because the trainer’s goal is to give frequent treats and have her practice skills all throughout the day, is intended to build the relationship of the dog and the human and provide opportunities to increase praise. “Have her work for the treats,” can also imply using the treats to teach discipline in a different way, by withholding the treat until she’s worked really hard. Sometimes trainers use these kinds of phrases in different ways because people are used to hearing them. “Know her place” is less likely because good trainers and behaviorist are hyper aware of this one, so if those were her exact words, I’d be cautious. It’s possible for someone to mean “feel secure and protected in her place in the family,” but the phrase is commonly associated with dominance based training, and often dominance based trainers consider themselves to be positive trainers. “Hybrid” forms of dominance training that use some positive training methods but are rooted in pack theories are still not good for Havanese, IMO. As long as you are listening for those differences, and the goal is to help her feel safe, secure, and confident, I think that’s a good thing. Self control and regular house training issues will come very easily when those things are in place, especially for Havanese, who live to please. This is true whether or not a puppy has been traumatized.


Yes thank you for that. From the beginning not big on dominance training snd especially this breed of dog as they are so wanting to please people and get offended when S older I read. Haven’t had a dog in 12 years and this is first time I have used a trainer and just for this issue. My Hav had been so easy to train. I will def watch out for that lingo if I make another private consult with the trainer to see if she is more dominance based training or not. I will also che k to see if there are some good youtube videos to help too.

just today came across an arrow about the startle reflex - was very interesting and dogs can have it to various degrees. I will try awaking him with the wakey wakey phrase to see if it helps over time. It may be I get him a den like Becca’s he just May not want to be awakened in the evenings. I should mention I do not have this issue during the day when he naps. This seems to be when he wants his big overnight sleep but won’t go upstairs to his crate unless we are going to bed too.


----------



## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

Just wanted to say hope the wakey wakey approach and positive reinforcement associated with it works out for you😘

Also hope that boxer and boxer’s owner get a kick in the nuts! (Did I say that out loud🤫)😘


----------



## Chippers77 (Jun 9, 2020)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Just wanted to say hope the wakey wakey approach and positive reinforcement associated with it works out for you😘
> 
> Also hope that boxer and boxer’s owner get a kick in the nuts! (Did I say that out loud🤫)😘


Lol me too. Actually best thing ever the couple with the boxer are moving out. Owner wants their house back. My daughter feels sorry for boxer - never walked or socialized. I can’t get past the bite but can see that it isn’t the dog’s fault if owners take no steps to correct. We did call animal control and basically nothing g happens after 1 incident. There needs to be a 2nd incident and depending on severity they are fined.


----------



## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

Chippers77 said:


> Lol me too. Actually best thing ever the couple with the boxer are moving out. Owner wants their house back. My daughter feels sorry for boxer - never walked or socialized. I can’t get past the bite but can see that it isn’t the dog’s fault if owners take no steps to correct. We did call animal control and basically nothing g happens after 1 incident. There needs to be a 2nd incident and depending on severity they are fined.


Your daughter is a much nicer person than I am😂.

She is right though😊. Funnily enough years ago my grandparents used to have a couple of boxers. This was after my grandad (who was a policeman at the time) asked one of his colleagues, who was a dog handler, what would be a good breed to have as a family dog with children about. I’m going back 50 years now, and I know that things change, but I would guess this means that they have a generally nice disposition. But like you say, all dogs need to be treated correctly when it comes to socialisation, behaviour and a whole lot more.

So we’ll let the dog off and just focus on the neighbours🥜😂


----------



## Chippers77 (Jun 9, 2020)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Your daughter is a much nicer person than I am😂.
> 
> She is right though😊. Funnily enough years ago my grandparents used to have a couple of boxers. This was after my grandad (who was a policeman at the time) asked one of his colleagues, who was a dog handler, what would be a good breed to have as a family dog with children about. I’m going back 50 years now, and I know that things change, but I would guess this means that they have a generally nice disposition. But like you say, all dogs need to be treated correctly when it comes to socialisation, behaviour and a whole lot more.
> 
> ...


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I get what you’re saying. I think there is a subtle but important difference in how people use “training lingo” to listen for. Saying, “let’s get her to work for those treats,” because the trainer’s goal is to give frequent treats and have her practice skills all throughout the day, is intended to build the relationship of the dog and the human and provide opportunities to increase praise. “Have her work for the treats,” can also imply using the treats to teach discipline in a different way, by withholding the treat until she’s worked really hard. Sometimes trainers use these kinds of phrases in different ways because people are used to hearing them. “Know her place” is less likely because good trainers and behaviorist are hyper aware of this one, so if those were her exact words, I’d be cautious. It’s possible for someone to mean “feel secure and protected in her place in the family,” but the phrase is commonly associated with dominance based training, and often dominance based trainers consider themselves to be positive trainers. “Hybrid” forms of dominance training that use some positive training methods but are rooted in pack theories are still not good for Havanese, IMO. As long as you are listening for those differences, and the goal is to help her feel safe, secure, and confident, I think that’s a good thing. Self control and regular house training issues will come very easily when those things are in place, especially for Havanese, who live to please. This is true whether or not a puppy has been traumatized.


Well put.


----------



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Your daughter is a much nicer person than I am😂.
> 
> She is right though😊. Funnily enough years ago my grandparents used to have a couple of boxers. This was after my grandad (who was a policeman at the time) asked one of his colleagues, who was a dog handler, what would be a good breed to have as a family dog with children about. I’m going back 50 years now, and I know that things change, but I would guess this means that they have a generally nice disposition. But like you say, all dogs need to be treated correctly when it comes to socialisation, behaviour and a whole lot more.
> 
> So we’ll let the dog off and just focus on the neighbours🥜😂


I completely agree. I think it’s sad, because we’ve had several experiences with really wonderful dogs that are often labeled a certain way because of their breed. On the other hand, all of our bad experiences with other dogs have been with small toy breeds. Unfortunately, when people seek out these breeds based on certain characteristics and encourage certain behaviors, they live up to their reputation when they grow into strong, adult dogs. I read somewhere a while ago about a push to replace breed bans with handling/education programs but this relies on responsible breeding and ownership.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Your daughter is a much nicer person than I am😂.
> 
> She is right though😊. Funnily enough years ago my grandparents used to have a couple of boxers. This was after my grandad (who was a policeman at the time) asked one of his colleagues, who was a dog handler, what would be a good breed to have as a family dog with children about. I’m going back 50 years now, and I know that things change, but I would guess this means that they have a generally nice disposition. But like you say, all dogs need to be treated correctly when it comes to socialisation, behaviour and a whole lot more.
> 
> So we’ll let the dog off and just focus on the neighbours🥜😂


In general, Boxers DO have good dispositions. Crazy amounts of energy, but big goofballs.


----------



## Chippers77 (Jun 9, 2020)

krandall said:


> In general, Boxers DO have good dispositions. Crazy amounts of energy, but big goofballs.


Every breed of dog can have a good disposition. But some breeds definitely have more of a prey drive and in my opinion those dogs need training. With dogs with boundless energy they also need to exercise more or engage in more stimulating canning enrichment activities. It is sad how many people get a dog or any pet without considering the implications and time you need to spend training etc.


----------



## Vartina Ancrum (Oct 10, 2019)

Poor little guy. I am no expert but I bet it's from that trauma. My co-worker has a Wheaten Terrier who was attacked in a dog park he became extremely nervous and shy when he visited the office. Before Covid, my co-worker's dog was showing signs of improving. I hope your little guy improves.


----------



## Vartina Ancrum (Oct 10, 2019)

Hopefully, the Boxer is just a rambunctious dog who didn't realize his own strength. Sometimes larger dogs don't understand that small dogs are not matched for their larger size. However, if this particular dog is aggressive I certainly hope it is addressed. I think my instincts probably would have kicked in and that Boxer would have gotten a beating from this "mama bear".


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Vartina Ancrum said:


> Hopefully, the Boxer is just a rambunctious dog who didn't realize his own strength. Sometimes larger dogs don't understand that small dogs are not matched for their larger size. However, if this particular dog is aggressive I certainly hope it is addressed. I think my instincts probably would have kicked in and that Boxer would have gotten a beating from this "mama bear".


It is not "play" to pick up a small dog and shake it, unfortunately. That is a dog that should be watched very, VERY carefully around other dogs going forward. (which probably won't happen with these owners. Just like any breed CAN have a good disposition, even those breeds that USUALLY have good dispositions can have ones that do not. 

We had a lovely forum member that adopted a Havanese puppy from a shelter with a broken leg. They spent a LOT of money nursing the puppy back to health, and then lots MORE money on training and behaviorists. They had another Havanese too. The dog would, occasionally, and without warning, attack the other dog, and also seriously bit family members. We are not talking "puppy nipping" here. We are talking about serious aggression. They worked with the dog for SEVERAL years. They really loved (her? I THINK it was a female, but I'm not sure anymore). In the end, after much soul-searching, they decided that the only fair, and SAFE thing to do, as much as they HATED it, and as much as they loved her, was to have her euthanized. When she told us all what she had done, I think we all cried a little for her. NO ONE could have tried harder for a dog than she had. But something was just wrong inside that little one's brain. And she was just a bad injury, to someone's dog or child, waiting to happen.

...And that's about as UN-Havanese as you can get. 😢


----------



## Chippers77 (Jun 9, 2020)

krandall said:


> Ohh! I remember about your poor boy! He has had a REALLY traumatic event in his life! I would worry a LOT less about him "earning" his treats", and a LOT more about just nurturing him and making him feel loved and supported.
> 
> And part of that means, for now, NOT startling him when he's asleep! I think I would start using a special sing-song type phrase that the whole family will use as a wake-up cue for him. In the beginning, do NOT use it for waking him up. In the beginning, make the sound, Let's use "wakey, wakey" as an example, but it can be ANYTHING you want, and give him a REALLY SMELLY, HIGH VALUE treat, like a little piece of chicken sausage. For nothing. All he has to do is listen to your sing-song, and get his treat. Don't call him to you... you go to him. Then give him a pat and walk away. When he starts to show that he recognizes that "wakey-wakey" signifies that something REALLY GOOD is coming, it's time to try it when he's sleeping.
> 
> ...


Hi - I wanted to provide some follow up to the wakey wakey suggestion when my hav is asleep and bites when startled. This is working so well. For a few days I would say the phrase during the day and within a day he knew a tasty treat came with the phrase. The last few days U tried it while he was asleep on the rug by the sofa. As soon as he heard wakey wakey he lifts his head waiting for his treat. At first I threw the treat to him. Then I let him approach to take out of my hand and then pet him. No gross or bites so far.

I did some reading and feel this is a strong startle reflex. Hopefully it lessons with time but if it continues suggestion I read is to provide a den like bed for him to go and sleep in when he wants and not disturb him.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Chippers77 said:


> Hi - I wanted to provide some follow up to the wakey wakey suggestion when my hav is asleep and bites when startled. This is working so well. For a few days I would say the phrase during the day and within a day he knew a tasty treat came with the phrase. The last few days U tried it while he was asleep on the rug by the sofa. As soon as he heard wakey wakey he lifts his head waiting for his treat. At first I threw the treat to him. Then I let him approach to take out of my hand and then pet him. No gross or bites so far.
> 
> I did some reading and feel this is a strong startle reflex. Hopefully it lessons with time but if it continues suggestion I read is to provide a den like bed for him to go and sleep in when he wants and not disturb him.


That is SUCH good news!!! And I am SO glad it is working so well for him and for you. It sounds like you are doing a GREAT job with him!!! 💗


----------



## Chippers77 (Jun 9, 2020)

krandall said:


> That is SUCH good news!!! And I am SO glad it is working so well for him and for you. It sounds like you are doing a GREAT job with him!!! 💗


Thanks very much for your help and suggestion. Can’t tell you how good it is to try something and see it work.


----------



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I’m so happy for you! And for him


----------



## Kathe B (Aug 14, 2021)

Chippers77 said:


> Thanks for the tips. What concerns me most is why he’d bite (by that meaning he breaks the skin - not play biting). He does this in evening if anyone tries to strike or pet him.
> Can that be trained out of him some way or should we get a den-like bed so he can go to sleep and no one bothering him?


I just adopted a six year old havapoo. She is sweet as can be until evening comes. Then she bites...breaking skin.....if you pet her. Even if she lies on her back for a belly rub....she will try to bite if you pet! I don’t understand. Any clue anyone?


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Kathe B said:


> I just adopted a six year old havapoo. She is sweet as can be until evening comes. Then she bites...breaking skin.....if you pet her. Even if she lies on her back for a belly rub....she will try to bite if you pet! I don’t understand. Any clue anyone?


Adopted pets very often come with a lot of “baggage”. It is really WAy beyond what can be figured out long distance through an internet media, what is going on. That said, ANY time when an adult dog is biting and breaking skin, it is spa serious enoughsituation that it is IMPERATIVE that you bring in professional help. The first thing I would do is talk to the rescue you got her from for input from them. Ask if they saw any of this behavior there, and if they have any advice. Then I would ask their advice for a professional to help you with this problem. You do NOT want to let this go. This can become more dangerous if it is not handled correctly.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

My mother had a Yorkie who was an awful dog. He was a bitter and she got him as a puppy. The first time she took him to the Vet, the dog bite the Vet and the Vet recommended putting the puppy down. My sister had gotten the dog for my mother and she tried to find a trainer but no one would work with him. Eventually, she ended up with a Police Dog trainer who was able to get control of the dog by using a strangling technique. Sounds Terrible!! 

My mother and sister used that technique of couple times but were too soft hearted to continue. It worked but.... The dog's name was Shepherd and my mother Loved! that dog. But she often had bite marks on her hands. I couldn't stand Shepherd but for some reason he seemed to like me. I didn't put up with him and was never bitten because I didn't give him the chance. 

My mother broke her hip and ended up in skilled nursing and was away from her home for 3-months. I was then encharge of Shepherd. Not only did he bite but he was not housebroken and peed everywhere. I'd take him outside and he'd come back in and pee and poop. I confined in him our kitchen/family room area and put him in a kennel over night. He tore the S*** out of the thing along with peeing and pooping inside the kennel. Shepherd was prone to having a seizure every now then. After one of those I took him to see my Vet. I was at my wits ends on how I was going to deal with Shepherd on a long term basis.

Shepherd bite the Vet's assistant. The Vet told me he would put Shepherd down. _A couple of years earlier he had bitten a third Vet when he was spayed. _

It wasn't long before I finally made the appointment. My husband and I took Shepherd back to the Vet and had him euthanized. My husband has commented: It was the best $50 dollars he'd every spent. 

I was going to lie to my mother and tell her Shepherd had had a massive seizure and died but when I started to tell her about Shepherd she stopped me saying: She didn't want to know. 

Good Luck! I would not keep a dog that bites.


----------



## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

I was wondering if the dog has been thoroughly checked to rule out any medical conditions. For example, did they check the thyroid? Hypothyroidism can cause aggression in dogs. Also wondering if the teeth were checked. Pain can sometimes cause aggression. Has she been groomed thoroughly and is free of mats? Mats are painful. She may have gotten matted in the past which could account for her biting when petted. Anyway, I thought these things are worth checking out. However, I am with Mikki and have zero tolerance for biting dogs. Although I do believe in ruling out medical conditions and trying to give them a chance.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> I was wondering if the dog has been thoroughly checked to rule out any medical conditions. For example, did they check the thyroid? Hypothyroidism can cause aggression in dogs. Also wondering if the teeth were checked. Pain can sometimes cause aggression. Has she been groomed thoroughly and is free of mats? Mats are painful. She may have gotten matted in the past which could account for her biting when petted. Anyway, I thought these things are worth checking out. However, I am with Mikki and have zero tolerance for biting dogs. Although I do believe in ruling out medical conditions and trying to give them a chance.


I agree tahat these things should be checked out, but they should have been checked out and worked theough by the rescue, not in the hands of an unsuspecting adopter that is not prepared for a challenge like this. Someone is going to get hurt…


----------



## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> Adopted pets very often come with a lot of “baggage”. It is really WAy beyond what can be figured out long distance through an internet media, what is going on. That said, ANY time when an adult dog is biting and breaking skin, it is spa serious enoughsituation that it is IMPERATIVE that you bring in professional help. The first thing I would do is talk to the rescue you got her from for input from them. Ask if they saw any of this behavior there, and if they have any advice. Then I would ask their advice for a professional to help you with this problem. You do NOT want to let this go. This can become more dangerous if it is not handled correctly.


Completely agree - check with the rescue, but also ask your vet (or a speciality vet hospital) for a referral to a good behaviorist - not just a trainer. This thread is a good one for ideas on how to wake your dog without touching/ startling them, but you need a behaviorist to help figure out a long term plan to work through this.


----------



## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> I agree tahat these things should be checked out, but they should have been checked out and worked theough by the rescue, not in the hands of an unsuspecting adopter that is not prepared for a challenge like this. Someone is going to get hurt…


I agree. I don’t know how rescues work. And the thyroid especially is sometimes overlooked so I thought I would mention it. I have known two people that put down their dogs for aggressiveness. One was a rescue but one came from a good breeder. I think some dogs and some people have a screw loose. It is unfortunate but can happen and innocent people should not have to be put In jeopardy for these kind of dogs.


----------



## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

Mikki said:


> My mother had a Yorkie who was an awful dog. He was a bitter and she got him as a puppy. The first time she took him to the Vet, the dog bite the Vet and the Vet recommended putting the puppy down. My sister had gotten the dog for my mother and she tried to find a trainer but no one would work with him. Eventually, she ended up with a Police Dog trainer who was able to get control of the dog by using a strangling technique. Sounds Terrible!!
> 
> My mother and sister used that technique of couple times but were too soft hearted to continue. It worked but.... The dog's name was Shepherd and my mother Loved! that dog. But she often had bite marks on her hands. I couldn't stand Shepherd but for some reason he seemed to like me. I didn't put up with him and was never bitten because I didn't give him the chance.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing this Mikki. I don’t envy that situation at all😔. I think it was brave of you to post about it, and is a good reminder that sometimes, despite our best efforts, we aren’t always able to control a situation and change things for the better. Sometimes when you have exhausted every avenue, it is ok to let go for everyone involved. In a converse way it was even a release for Shepherd as he can not have been at peace exhibiting behaviour like that.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Shepherd (my mother's Yorkie) was NEVER teased. My mother had many dogs throughout her life and was comfortable handling dogs. This Yorkie basically had a bad personality. He could be lovable but was unpredictable and dangerous.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Thanks for sharing this Mikki. I don’t envy that situation at all😔. I think it was brave of you to post about it, and is a good reminder that sometimes, despite our best efforts, we aren’t always able to control a situation and change things for the better. Sometimes when you have exhausted every avenue, it is ok to let go for everyone involved. In a converse way it was even a release for Shepherd as he can not have been at peace exhibiting behaviour like that.


Exactly, dogs that bite are not happy dogs.


----------



## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

A friend recently adopted a dog from southern Missouri. It was a rescue situation but she got the dog from a bad backyard breeder vs. rescue organization. The “breeder” was using this dog for breeding even though he did not have a tail (Jack Russel)…which tells you something. This was an obvious defect so it is doubtful any other health testing was ever done. The dog was given a clean bill of health by the “breeder’s” vet when she got him, including heartworm testing. A month later he fainted and it was discovered that he had heartworms. I assume all rescue dogs do not come from reputable organizations. My friend went through the entire ugly heartworm killing process and the dog is doing well now. He does seem to be a good dog with a nice personality.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> A friend recently adopted a dog from southern Missouri. It was a rescue situation but she got the dog from a bad backyard breeder vs. rescue organization. The “breeder” was using this dog for breeding even though he did not have a tail (Jack Russel)…which tells you something. This was an obvious defect so it is doubtful any other health testing was ever done. The dog was given a clean bill of health by the “breeder’s” vet when she got him, including heartworm testing. A month later he fainted and it was discovered that he had heartworms. I assume all rescue dogs do not come from reputable organizations. My friend went through the entire ugly heartworm killing process and the dog is doing well now. He does seem to be a good dog with a nice personality.



My son's WONDERFUL Tree Walker Coonhound also came from a VERY questionable "rescue" that "imports" dogs from the deep south. He knew when he took the dog that he had heart worm, but the rescue was paying to treat the dog for that. I knew the vet that was doing the treatment, and he had checked the dog's heart when the dog came in. He said that, in his opinion, the dog's heart was in good shape, the disease had not progressed very far, and he preferred treating the dogs when they were relaxed and settled in their new homes, so was encouraging the sellers to do this. so THAT wasn't the problem.

What WAS the problem was that they PUSHED my son into taking the dog home when he was not yet prepared to take him. He had visited with him a couple of times, I'd taken Kodi over to make sure he was good with little dogs, (he was) and Robbie had said he wanted him and put a deposit on him, telling them he would pick him up two days later, the beginning of the weekend, when he could spend two full days at home with him, after getting the supplies he needed. They KNEW he'd never had a dog of his own, and he needed a day or two to get a crate, gates, bed, leashes and all the other stuff life with a very large dog entails. Instead, they talked him into taking him that afternoon (I wasn't there) with about a gallon bag of food (enough for two meals, no information about what the food was) a folder of scanty information, a frayed leash and a beat-up old collar.

Robbie arrived at my house 20 minutes later in a state of panic. Chipper had had MASSIVE, EXPLOSIVE diarrhea all over the inside of his pickup truck, coating Robbie, himself, and every INCH of the cab, including the ceiling!!!! I got Chipper out and started bathing him, Robbie started, literally, HOSING out his truck. There was nothing else that could be done with it. He hosed it out, THEN shampooed it, THEN we DOUSED it with GALLONS of Anti-Icky Poo. Then left it open to dry in the sun. For days. Of course I couldn't let Chipper in the house, because I didn't want him getting my dogs sick. I put him in an empty stall in the barn with some nice bedding for holding. Fortunately, it was the summer, so warmth wasn't an issue.

In the mean time, I opened the envelope and out dropped a packet of pills! It turned out that they KNEW he was sick (can't remember what anymore) and SENT HIM HOME, with a brand new dog owner, WITHOUT EVEN MENTIONING IT!!! No, it wasn't life-threatening, but a 70 lb hound dog with explosive diarrhea is NOT something you send home to a new owner without even any warning!!!

It was a couple of months before he was well enough for the vet to want to treat him for the Heart worm, which was also hard on both him AND Robbie, requiring two over-night stays to manage pain after each treatment... yes, it's that bad, and he was STILL painful for many days after... But once he got through it, he HAS been fine, and he really is a great dog for Robbie. They are together constantly!









OTOH, that "rescue" got shut down later in the same year for a whole BUNCH of different infraction, and I was not at all sorry to see them gone!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

krandall said:


> My son's WONDERFUL Tree Walker Coonhound also came from a VERY questionable "rescue" that "imports" dogs from the deep south. He knew when he took the dog that he had heart worm, but the rescue was paying to treat the dog for that. I knew the vet that was doing the treatment, and he had checked the dog's heart when the dog came in. He said that, in his opinion, the dog's heart was in good shape, the disease had not progressed very far, and he preferred treating the dogs when they were relaxed and settled in their new homes, so was encouraging the sellers to do this. so THAT wasn't the problem.
> 
> What WAS the problem was that they PUSHED my son into taking the dog home when he was not yet prepared to take him. He had visited with him a couple of times, I'd taken Kodi over to make sure he was good with little dogs, (he was) and Robbie had said he wanted him and put a deposit on him, telling them he would pick him up two days later, the beginning of the weekend, when he could spend two full days at home with him, after getting the supplies he needed. They KNEW he'd never had a dog of his own, and he needed a day or two to get a crate, gates, bed, leashes and all the other stuff life with a very large dog entails. Instead, they talked him into taking him that afternoon (I wasn't there) with about a gallon bag of food (enough for two meals, no information about what the food was) a folder of scanty information, a frayed leash and a beat-up old collar.
> 
> ...


“They are together constantly!”🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰 (maybe Chipper is a Havanese in disguise)😘


----------



## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> My son's WONDERFUL Tree Walker Coonhound also came from a VERY questionable "rescue" that "imports" dogs from the deep south. He knew when he took the dog that he had heart worm, but the rescue was paying to treat the dog for that. I knew the vet that was doing the treatment, and he had checked the dog's heart when the dog came in. He said that, in his opinion, the dog's heart was in good shape, the disease had not progressed very far, and he preferred treating the dogs when they were relaxed and settled in their new homes, so was encouraging the sellers to do this. so THAT wasn't the problem.
> 
> What WAS the problem was that they PUSHED my son into taking the dog home when he was not yet prepared to take him. He had visited with him a couple of times, I'd taken Kodi over to make sure he was good with little dogs, (he was) and Robbie had said he wanted him and put a deposit on him, telling them he would pick him up two days later, the beginning of the weekend, when he could spend two full days at home with him, after getting the supplies he needed. They KNEW he'd never had a dog of his own, and he needed a day or two to get a crate, gates, bed, leashes and all the other stuff life with a very large dog entails. Instead, they talked him into taking him that afternoon (I wasn't there) with about a gallon bag of food (enough for two meals, no information about what the food was) a folder of scanty information, a frayed leash and a beat-up old collar.
> 
> ...


Wow what a horrid experience. I am glad it all worked out in the end and your son wound up with a very nice dog. I know some wonderful rescue dogs and then there are some head cases too.

This is what I wondered about rescue organizations. I guess there is good and bad with everything.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> “They are together constantly!”🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰 (maybe Chipper is a Havanese in disguise)😘


THIS dog has SERIOUS "separation anxiety"!!!


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Wow what a horrid experience. I am glad it all worked out in the end and your son wound up with a very nice dog. I know some wonderful rescue dogs and then there are some head cases too.
> 
> This is what I wondered about rescue organizations. I guess there is good and bad with everything.


Yup.


----------



## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

mudpuppymama said:


> Wow what a horrid experience. I am glad it all worked out in the end and your son wound up with a very nice dog. I know some wonderful rescue dogs and then there are some head cases too.
> 
> This is what I wondered about rescue organizations. I guess there is good and bad with everything.


Definitely good and bad with everything. There are some really great rescues, some that (I think) are soooo conscientious that they put so many requirements that it makes it difficult for people to adopt (all for good reasons, but not the best philosophy in my opinion), some that are barely concealed fronts for puppy mills, and some that are just trainwrecks (and many in between). 

Perry came from one that, I now strongly suspect, was a front for a puppy mill - a way for a puppy mill to get rid of the ones they couldn't sell (for whatever reason). They were super responsive and helpful before I got him, but then it was radio silence afterwards whenever I tried to ask a question (I also heard from some other people on FB about problems with this rescue.) I didn't even know this was a thing before I got him and was checking in with rescues (and with my living circumstances the very strict ones weren't even a possibility).

They seemed very open about him, but I realized after that they definitely didn't share everything - his intense fear, especially of men, never mentioned his twisted leg. Luckily there were no major medical issues!


----------



## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> My son's WONDERFUL Tree Walker Coonhound also came from a VERY questionable "rescue" that "imports" dogs from the deep south. He knew when he took the dog that he had heart worm, but the rescue was paying to treat the dog for that. I knew the vet that was doing the treatment, and he had checked the dog's heart when the dog came in. He said that, in his opinion, the dog's heart was in good shape, the disease had not progressed very far, and he preferred treating the dogs when they were relaxed and settled in their new homes, so was encouraging the sellers to do this. so THAT wasn't the problem.
> 
> What WAS the problem was that they PUSHED my son into taking the dog home when he was not yet prepared to take him. He had visited with him a couple of times, I'd taken Kodi over to make sure he was good with little dogs, (he was) and Robbie had said he wanted him and put a deposit on him, telling them he would pick him up two days later, the beginning of the weekend, when he could spend two full days at home with him, after getting the supplies he needed. They KNEW he'd never had a dog of his own, and he needed a day or two to get a crate, gates, bed, leashes and all the other stuff life with a very large dog entails. Instead, they talked him into taking him that afternoon (I wasn't there) with about a gallon bag of food (enough for two meals, no information about what the food was) a folder of scanty information, a frayed leash and a beat-up old collar.
> 
> ...


BTW - Very handsome young man and dog!

I am also wondering…is your son’s business tree removal? Is it coincidental he has a Tree Walker dog?


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Clipper is a Dog Gone Lucky Doggie that he found his way to Robbie via his Mother who provided help. Most people who have taken Clipper back.


----------



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Kathe B said:


> I just adopted a six year old havapoo. She is sweet as can be until evening comes. Then she bites...breaking skin.....if you pet her. Even if she lies on her back for a belly rub....she will try to bite if you pet! I don’t understand. Any clue anyone?


Sundance sometimes asks for a belly rub as an invitation to play and get our attention, which he communicates by mouthing our hands and playing with them when we actually rub his belly. He doesn’t use teeth, but it does makes me think that if she is inviting you to belly rub, it seems possible a behaviorist could help with what comes next.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Mellissa .... What do you mean there were no major health issues? What about the two orthopedic surgeries for twisted legs?

I admire people who adopt rescues. Truly such a wonderful act of kindness. It's something I might have done in my younger years but not today. For the most part people give up dogs because they are not housebroken are are untrained. Most people are not trained in how to manage an untrained dog and expect them to fit right in a new home without adjustment. It's great to hear success stories.


----------



## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Mikki said:


> Mellissa .... What do you mean there were no major health issues? What about the two orthopedic surgeries for twisted legs?
> 
> I admire people who adopt rescues. Truly such a wonderful act of kindness. It's something I might have done in my younger years but not today. For the most part people give up dogs because they are not housebroken are are untrained. Most people are not trained in how to manage an untrained dog and expect them to fit right in a new home without adjustment. It's great to hear success stories.


I meant health issues that they might have known about (other than the twisted leg that they never mentioned - but even that, it's not often that it has to have such major surgery... 2 years ago our vet didn't think we would need to do it). The other surgery was for a torn CCL - which can happen to any dog regardless of rescue or not  

I do think you have to go into getting a rescue with your eyes wide open. In our case, it wasn't that someone had given him up - he came from a "breeder who was going out of business" (which I think was a lie). BUT they do still come with issues because even the young ones might not be properly socialized etc. In our case I hadn't realized how bad his fear was - and it's taken years to undo some mistakes that I did because I hadn't really taken that seriously enough at the time (we did consult with a behaviorist once to get a better idea of what to do with Mr. Perry and some of his issues). So yes, taking in a rescue has to be a serious decision AND needs to come with the willingness (and resources) to get the help you might need to work through some of the issues.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> BTW - Very handsome young man and dog!
> 
> I am also wondering…is your son’s business tree removal? Is it coincidental he has a Tree Walker dog?


Yes, he is an arborist. The fact that he ended up with a “Tree Walker” is a coincidence. The fact that he named him “Chipper” is not. It was a toss up between that and Stump. But we decided that Stump would work better for a Basset Hound. (Which was what he was originally looking for  )


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> Clipper is a Dog Gone Lucky Doggie that he found his way to Robbie via his Mother who provided help. Most people who have taken Clipper back.


Most people would have dumped him out on the side of the road! LOL!


----------

