# Your opinion...cruel or not?



## Atomickittyn (Aug 25, 2007)

A friend of my husband's recently purchased a 3-month-old shih-tzu (from a petstore!) and are leaving it at home from 9-5 because everyone in the household is working. They leave him in an ex-pen with a bed, food/water, and peepad. They have set up a webcam so they can watch him throughout the day.

Is this acceptable? Maybe I'm just over-reacting, but I think this is cruel. Especially at such a young age too, only 3-months.

Please give me your opinions.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Yes I personally think it is cruel, but I guess you have to give them points for leaving the pup in a place with pee pee pads, and water. I just think that the poor pup wont be very socialized.


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## earthnut (Aug 28, 2008)

I don't think this is "cruel" because probably the majority of puppies in cities grow up this way, and most dogs turnout fine. They are providing all his physical needs, and if they socialize him on evenings or weekends, like at a puppy class, they would be giving him as much psychological support as possible given that they work full time. There were a couple puppies in Domino's class that lived this way, and they seemed well-adjusted.

However, they really shouldn't have gotten a puppy in the first place if everyone works full time. They are going to have a hard time housebreaking him.

Any "cruelty" going on here is that they are gone all day. Pens and crates are not cruel used properly, and it doesn't sound like they're abusing the pen.


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## Renee (Mar 27, 2008)

This is an issue along the same lines as putting your kids in daycare. 
Not everyone has the opportunity to stay home, even part-time. Some of us have to have jobs to support our family.
Nobody should be made to feel guilty about putting their kids in daycare, or having to leave their dog home during the day.
Miley is home by herself during the day, either in a fenced-in backyard, or a gated area in the house (even when she was a small puppy). Her needs are met (food, water, shelter, toys), and she gets SO much love and playtime during the afternoon and evening hours. And she is housebroken and VERY well socialized.
I know dogs that are NEVER played with and left outside all day. I think that would fall more along the lines of NEGLECT, but not cruelty.
Don't make those of us that have to work feel like we are being CRUEL for leaving our dogs during the day.
Miley has a better life than a lot of kids I know....


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I go thru the same thing especially living in SC now where I am now really in the minority for what I do with my dogs. My neighbors now have 4 dogs and they are left outside all day and night. They occasionally go back and play with them- toss a frisbee with them for a little bit, they usually have food in a bowl and there is a dog house but when I feel really horrible is when I take Dash outside to do agility and all 4 of them sit along the fence and cry wanting to come over. They all happen to be working and hunting breeds too so dogs that really have the desire and need to work. I guess at least they do have each other to interact with. I think there are a lot of people who get dogs and forget how much care and interaction they need. I previously worked full time but made sure I dedicated a lot of time to my dogs when I wasn't at work. My husband has always had a job where he works from home quite a bit as well. I am not saying this to make people who work feel guilty. I am just saying a lot of people view what it means to own and take care of a dog quite differently than those of us on the forum.

Amanda


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

I don't think it's cruel. It's not ideal, but not cruel.

My son and his wife got a second dog so their first wouldn't be alone all day while they worked. The dogs did just fine. DS walked them everyday and they had each other to romp with. They got lots of love from DS and DDIL at night and on weekends..
Now, someone is home during the day, but they had that routine for 3 years.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

luv2havs said:


> I don't think it's cruel. It's not ideal, but not cruel.


 That was my initial response too.

It does seem like a bad idea to get a companion breed and keep them in solitary all day though.


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## Renee (Mar 27, 2008)

Havtahava said:


> That was my initial response too.
> 
> It does seem like a bad idea to get a companion breed and keep them in solitary all day though.


What dog ISN'T a companion breed??? Don't ALL dogs like to be around people at all times? 
I just think it's a "snobbish" thought process that if you "have to work from 9-5", you shouldn't be allowed to have a small dog.


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## Atomickittyn (Aug 25, 2007)

Thank you, I really appreciate everyone's perspective on this, it gives me an alternate way of thinking and I feel more reassured. This is the kind of feedback that I was looking for. It has definitely changed my use of the word "cruel" in this situation.

Thanks again.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I have to agree with the majority here. It's not cruel. I would guess that more people than not have to work full time and have animals at home. My way of dealing with it years ago when I got my girls was to have two so they weren't lonely during the day till I could get home to take care of them. Now I have the luxury of working at home part time and at the office when I prefer, but when I am out for the whole day I never worry. They have each other to play with till I get home.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I also do not think of it as cruel,but rather kind of sad for the pup. I do think though it can depend alot on the breed of dog. My sheltie would miss me,but he would not cry and all that. He would be fine left alone. Quincy though----I'm not so sure. I think havanese are a more "needy" breed then alot of them. Shih tsu's I wouldn't have any idea. I have a friend with 2 but she is home all the time with them.


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

I don't think it's cruel, but I am sure the puppy gets lonely. Did you friends ever consider having someone come in during the day to play with the puppy and walk it. Maybe they can find a highschool student who would do it for a small feel...just a thought. 

As far as companion dogs being especially needy, true, but so are my Standards. OMG, I go out for half an hour and the reception I get when I come home can't be descbied. You would think they've been left alone all day. I guess it's because they are used to a stay at home mom and always being around me.


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

I do not think it is cruel at all. I bet if you looked at their web feed you would see him sleeping most of the day. If they bought him from a pet store he probably has never had so much room to play in.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

I try so hard to avoid these topics but I have to jump in here. It's not cruel. Like others have said, it's certainly not ideal either. In an ideal world, I wouldn't have to work at all. We could survive on my husband's salary alone and I could spend my day doing dog related stuff!! 
Unfortunately, that's not the case. I have to work because we live in CA and my husband does not make a six figure income by himself. Does that mean that we should not have children or pets because I can't be a stay at home mom? I don't think so. The need to love and nurture is still there. We couldn't have children so we have pets. When McKenna was a puppy she was kept in an ex-pen while we were at work. She had her crate, her water a small play area, toys, and access to the patio to go potty. A neighbhor came in to check on her and play with her during the day until she adjusted to our schedule. We knew she was safe, warm and comfortable. When she was trustworthy she had the run of most of the house while we were at work. When she was 11 months old we brought home a puppy to be our second "kid" and McKenna's friend. Until Sedona was house trained they BOTH stayed in the ex-pen. 
I dare anyone to say my dogs aren't loved, wanted, cared for, paid attention to, healthy, and well adjusted. They've been to obedience classes, they've been camping, they have been to most Northern CA tourist places, as well as several other states. Trust me, they get around! Do we sacrifice so that this is the case? Yes! We both go straight home from work. We rarely go out to eat, we rarely go to the movies. If we have to go somewhere for a weekend day without them, I take a day off during the week to make up for it, not that they really care, but I do. 
Would I recommend that two working people get a puppy? Probably not unless they are willing to make sacrafices to spend as much time with their pups as possible. I admire a breeder who looks at each case individually instead of making a blanket judgement. Just because someone is home all day doesn't mean the dog gets tons of attention, it just means that there is another body there. Just an honest opinion.......but what do I know.


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

I'm right there with you Susan. I would love to be able to stay at home with my dogs, but that's not possible. I have to work full-time. And I too spend most of my off-time focused on my dogs. I choose my activities based on what I can do with the dogs. 

I've considered the argument that since I work full time I shouldn't have gotten a dog. For completely selfish reasons, I had to - my dogs are what kept me alive and allowed me to re-enter the world following the death of my partner. 

Because it was bothering me, and it's how my mind works :der: I did the calculations to determine how much time my dogs are really alone and it's about 20%. (Once you back out vacations, holidays, etc.) For me, that didn't seem so awful, especially since they sleep so much of that time. 

And my dogs may be different since they're rescues, but I've not found either one to be any more of a companion dog than any other dog I've had in the past. My partner was retired so always home with our dog - I don't see much difference in behavior with Cody & Tess. I do agree it's harder to potty train.... then I see postings from people who are at home and still have trouble with potty training....


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

By the way Susan, it's good to know someone else does make-up days if you aren't able to be home all weekend! ound: I don't even try to explain to my boss why I'm taking the day off...


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

I don't think it's necessarily cruel but I didn't do that for my guys when they were puppies. I took my vacation time as half days. So Mon, Tues, Wed, Fri I worked half days, so they were only alone for about 4-5hrs max. I get 4 weeks vacation so that gave me lots of time to spend with them.


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## Renee (Mar 27, 2008)

mckennasedona said:


> I try so hard to avoid these topics but I have to jump in here. It's not cruel. Like others have said, it's certainly not ideal either. In an ideal world, I wouldn't have to work at all. We could survive on my husband's salary alone and I could spend my day doing dog related stuff!!


Susan~
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. This subject tends to get me fired up, and it's nice to know there are others out there in my same situation! So I appreciate you chiming in....


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Susan, Jill & Renee, I agree with you. Dogs do not need 24/7 to be well cared for, loved and well adjusted.


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## sweetlotus (Nov 26, 2008)

I have to say, this sounds similar to my situation now. Mochi is 12 weeks old and when I'm gone, I keep her in an ex-pen where I stream her across the net so I can watch her at all times. She is alone for about 4 hours in the morning and then another 4 hour stretch in the afternoon, so that adds up to about 8 hours or more. 

I don't think anyone watching her over the net would think it's cruel. She has a place to pee and poop, water, toys, and a bed. For a majority of the time she's sleeping or sometimes playing quietly by herself. She never cries or whines during that time. 

When I am home, I spend almost all my time with her. I take her to puppy classes, socialization meetups, and out to meet different people every chance I get. She is growing up to be an amazing puppy and I feel she behaves better than a lot of other puppies who have owners that DO stay home 24/7. She has no separation anxiety, she loves playing with other dogs - even big ones now, and overall, behaves beautifully.

Please don't cast judgment on the people who love their dogs just as much but just can't spend all day with them.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Susan, I'm glad you chimed in here. I always think of you and Steve as the best example of a couple who works _and_ has very loved and well-adjusted Havs! :hug:


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## mintchip (Apr 19, 2007)

Jane said:


> Susan, I'm glad you chimed in here. I always think of you and Steve as the best example of a couple who works _and_ has very loved and well-adjusted Havs! :hug:


I agree 100%


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## aradelat (Jun 13, 2007)

*hard to go to work*

The fact that Havanese need a lot of human companionship almost kept me from getting Pablo. My fiance and I both work long hours. We kept him gated in the kitchen as a puppy, instead of a pen, because we felt he could entertain himself better -- looking out the window and playing with his toys.
We left him with food, water and a pee pad, hired a walker to play with him every day and encouraged my mother (who lives in the neighborhood) to visit him often. 
He was socialized at night (we took him to outside restaurants and bookstores that allowed dogs) and on weekends. Although he gives us that sad and a little pissed off lookwhen we leave for work in the morning, he turned out okay.
He still has a walker. But he sometimes seems annoyed if we stay home with him on a weekday. It seems he's gotten used to a long afternoon nap and that ruins it for him. So you see, dogs adapt, even Velcro dogs.


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

little guy could sure us someone to come and walk and/or play with him for an hour every other day.
At least til he get get into a day care for time with other doggies. Once he's had all his shots.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

One of my puppy buyers retired and got a puppy from us then found she had to go back to work. Now that puppy is up for adoption because of it.  
I worked when I had my pom and work part time now but my pom went to work with me. My kids had daycare and babysitters because they also had school so who am I to stand in judgment of anyone?


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Are we talking about 'puppies' being left alone or adult dogs?


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