# How to test for nutrient deficiency?



## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

Migo has been on a prey model raw diet since I got him. He's doing well, has grown a lot and seems quite healthy and happy. Since we've moved on to other proteins (added one at a time for signs of allergy), we have stopped chicken and he's mostly on red meat with the exception of sardine (fed rarely) and turkey. 

I'm not concerned for him at all, but I would like to get him tested for any nutrient deficiencies. I'm slightly paranoid when it comes to Migo's health and would hate to find out that I've been doing something wrong despite my research. My quick googling says that blood work is not the best for this test. Has anyone tested their dog? How do I go about it and what did you find out from your test?


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

if you are on a raw diet like this you should be following a professionally designed plan preferably by a nutritionist.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Doing it right Jean Dodds

The biggest concern with homemade diets is that, unless properly formulated and followed, the diet may not be nutritionally balanced. For this reason, I strongly advise that you obtain your recipe from a reputable source, such as a book published by a holistic or holistically minded veterinarian, board-certified veterinary nutritionist, or canine/feline nutritionist where the recipes have been tested and verified as nutritionally balanced. If you are able, you can also consult with a reputable animal nutritionist to design the diet.

When preparing a homemade diet for your dog or cat, it's essential to stick to the ingredients listed. Substituting ingredients can result in a diet that is no longer nutritionally balanced. Also, be sure to add all vitamin/mineral and any other supplements as directed; these supplements are essential to ensuring that the diet is properly balanced

Dr. Becker

First, many homemade and prey-model diets and a few commercially available raw food diets are unbalanced. This means pets have been brought to veterinarians, including me, with nutritional imbalances that could and should have been avoided. These animals are deficient in antioxidants, or the correct amounts of trace minerals and vitamins, or the right fatty acid balance for appropriate and balanced skeletal growth, and organ and immune health.

Usually, these well-intentioned owners don't correlate their pet's medical issues with nutritional deficiencies, but their vets do. And many veterinarians develop very strong opinions against all homemade and raw diets because of these cases. There are many well-meaning people who feed unbalanced diets out of ignorance and, in some cases, stubbornness.

I've had several clients tell me they don't care that the analysis of their pet's current diet - let's say, chicken wings and burgers - demonstrates deficiencies in certain critical nutrients. They believe that "This is the diet I've fed for X number of years and my dog is doing fine, so there's no need to change it."

Dr. Becker ..." #13 Dead last on the list and the worst thing you can feed your pet is an unbalanced, homemade diet - raw or cooked. I'm seeing an increasing number of misguided pet owners in my practice who think they're doing the right thing by serving their pet, say, a chicken breast and some veggies and calling it a day.

Yes, the food is homemade, but it's nutritionally unbalanced. Pets being fed this way are showing up at my clinic with endocrine abnormalities, skeletal issues and organ degeneration as a result of deficiencies in calcium, trace minerals and omega fatty acids.

Catherine Lane Last article for The Bark- Myths and Misperceptions about Home Feeding - The Possible Canine

http://news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=10666 study on home prepared


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## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

I am already aware of that article and study. I'm not feeding him chicken breast and veggies and calling it a day. Seems like there are a lot of assumptions being made.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

karidyne said:


> I am already aware of that article and study. I'm not feeding him chicken breast and veggies and calling it a day. Seems like there are a lot of assumptions being made.


But YOU asked the question about possible nutrient deficiencies. And didn't give any information about what you are feeding other than that it is a "prey model diet". You didn't give us much to go on, and all too many people try to "wing it" with raw diets. It can take a long, LONG time for deficiencies to show up.

If you really want to know whether you are feeding an appropriate diet, you should be checking with one of the professionals in the article Dave shared, not asking other people who don't know much about it either (but who almost all have opinions  ) on the internet.


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## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

krandall said:


> But YOU asked the question about possible nutrient deficiencies. And didn't give any information about what you are feeding other than that it is a "prey model diet". You didn't give us much to go on, and all too many people try to "wing it" with raw diets. It can take a long, LONG time for deficiencies to show up.
> 
> If you really want to know whether you are feeding an appropriate diet, you should be checking with one of the professionals in the article Dave shared, not asking other people who don't know much about it either (but who almost all have opinions  ) on the internet.


I was asking if anyone has tested their dog for a nutrition deficiency and to share what they learned from the experience. A copy-pasted hunk of info on how most people who feed raw aren't doing it right isn't helpful for me. I did a year's worth of research before I got Migo. I know which proteins and which muscle or organ meats provide which vitamins and minerals. You still have to be careful though given how tiny/young he is which is why I'm considering getting him tested. I'm already in the process of getting an appt at a top 3 vet school's nutritionist. I got this. I was just asking for experiences with testing while I wait.


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## Pinkasaurus (Aug 13, 2017)

Could you give a url for the test you took? Also do you think you can give me a sample diet of what you feed your puppy? I mostly just pat the dog down, to feel ribs, and check poop, mouth oder:smile2:, etc. 

I know you measure the food you feed with ounces, by using your dogs weight, and such, but I would like to know if my dog is getting enough nutrition. Thanks!


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## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

Pinkasaurus said:


> Could you give a url for the test you took? Also do you think you can give me a sample diet of what you feed your puppy? I mostly just pat the dog down, to feel ribs, and check poop, mouth oder:smile2:, etc.
> 
> I know you measure the food you feed with ounces, by using your dogs weight, and such, but I would like to know if my dog is getting enough nutrition. Thanks!


There is a lot of good information here https://www.rfas.uk/canine-starter-guide

Hope that helps!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

karidyne said:


> There is a lot of good information here https://www.rfas.uk/canine-starter-guide
> 
> Hope that helps!


This is why I will repeat Jean Dodds warning about using proper PROFESSIONAL nutritionists to develope raw or cooked diets. These sort of websites are the reason veterinary nutritionists do not even recommend raw diets. And the nutrtionists that do tend to favor BARF raw diets over prey model.

Jean Dodds ..."The biggest concern with homemade diets is that, unless properly formulated and followed, the diet may not be nutritionally balanced. For this reason, I strongly advise that you obtain your recipe from a reputable source, such as a book published by a holistic or holistically minded veterinarian, board-certified veterinary nutritionist, or canine/feline nutritionist where the recipes have been tested and verified as nutritionally balanced. If you are able, you can also consult with a reputable animal nutritionist to design the diet.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Why not prey model raw diets 
Prey-Model Pet Diet Sparks Online Demand for Wild Game


__
https://83518859389%2Fprey-model-barf-diets%23.WZCB2lGGPIU


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## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

davetgabby said:


> Why not prey model raw diets
> Prey-Model Pet Diet Sparks Online Demand for Wild Game
> 
> 
> ...





> I can't in good conscience recommend this option for the majority of proactive pet owners, given the challenges of finding a good variety of fresh, raw, whole, legally obtained wild game.


I can obtain fresh, raw, whole, legally obtained wild game. (Yay for Colorado) Although the proteins I feed are beef, duck (rare), turkey (infrequent), lamb, goat, rabbit and sardine (rare). Of course this wouldn't tell you if his diet is balanced. You would need more information.



> The wolf in the wild will eat:
> 
> Muscle meat
> Smaller bones
> ...


Which is why you need to research which parts provide which nutrients. You can figure this out within the website I linked as well as elsewhere.



> If chicken legs are fed as a sole food source, your pet will become deficient in essential nutrients such as potassium, iron, copper, manganese, zinc, vitamins A, D, E and B12, iodine and choline.


Not feeding chicken legs as sole source. More info on this found in link I provided or found easily elsewhere. Point is DO THE RESEARCH.



> They have been domesticated by humans


Dogs domesticated themselves, but this is a tangent. Just annoyed me when reading.

Her argument seems to be that since domestication dogs are no longer carnivores. I think the dog anatomy says otherwise. Sure, they seem to be "opportunistic" feeders, but I think they thrive on a BALANCED carefully designed PMR or heavily PMR based diet. I've done the research. If you want to have a discussion though, I am up for it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

They aren't carnivore, and no longer have wolf-like carnivore teeth. They are scavengers.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

if you learn from sites like you mentioned I along with most professionals would argue is not a good choice. Good luck finding a veterinary nutritionist that will endorse a raw prey model diet . Share their names with us if you able to find one ?


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## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

krandall said:


> They aren't carnivore, and no longer have wolf-like carnivore teeth. They are scavengers.


anatomy of eating

Or the textbook: Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology by Feldhammer.

Or wiki https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Anatomy_and_Physiology_of_Animals/The_Gut_and_Digestion#Carnivores

Not wolf teeth, still carnivore teeth. Designed for ripping and tearing.


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## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

davetgabby said:


> if you learn from sites like you mentioned I along with most professionals would argue is not a good choice. Good luck finding a veterinary nutritionist that will endorse a raw prey model diet . Share their names with us if you able to find one ?


Not just sites like the one I mentioned (though the one I mentioned is good!), also textbooks.

You challenge me with articles, but when I show you how they don't really apply (they talk about feeding only a single chicken part or not being able to source legal wild game) then you excuse yourself with "find a nutritionist who agrees with you!".

Did you bother to even read the article I linked? What is your problem with it exactly? I at least gave you a response to the ones you linked.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I won't get into a debate on whether dogs are carnivores or not. Been there. You came here with a doubt whether you were feeding a balanced diet. We are not the ones to answer this. If you want the best source , ask a nutrtionist. I happen to know one personally . If you pm me with your diet I can give her this and get a brief answer. She is on holidays so would get back to you ASAP

here is a good article Vegetables for dogs - to feed, or not to feed? - The Possible Canine


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

dogs have evolved https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...dogs-specifically-evolved-eat-bread-and-pasta


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## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

I didn't start this thread because I have doubts. I said I was not worried about Migo's diet, but I would like to give him a test just to feel more confident. I started this thread to learn more about testing for a nutrient deficiency.

Again, I am in the process of filling out paperwork to see a nutritionist at a university. It seems like a long process and working during their hours doesn't help. But if you don't mind asking about testing for nutrient deficiencies I would really appreciate it. From what I can tell, the blood test isn't the best way to go about it.

I'm here because I want the best for my Havanese, not to defend Migo's diet to you. I even agree that most people do not do enough research when they begin a raw diet. I particularly like this regarding carnivore vs omnivore though Rebuttal to Second Chance Ranch

The fact that we are both on this forum and that we seek out and critically digest information suggests that we do what we think is best for our dogs. In fact, from my little time on this forum and seeing your posts, this topic seems to be the only thing we disagree on.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

If you don't want a professional nutritionists help from my side. thats fine. She can tell from your diet, whether there might be deficiencies . Sorry you are not interested ????


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## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

davetgabby said:


> If you don't want a professional nutritionists help from my side. thats fine. She can tell from your diet, whether there might be deficiencies . Sorry you are not interested ????


Why would I be interested? She can't do a physical exam. She can't do an in-person consultation. I'm not going to give a friend of a stranger on the internet permission to contact Migo's vet, so she won't be able to do a medical history review. I don't know her credentials. Why would I go to her when I live right next to the third best vet school in the US?

Also https://www.scimex.org/newsfeed/nz-dog-diet-study-a-wake-up-call-for-animal-nutrition#


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## Tux's Mom (May 24, 2016)

I have only one thing to offer. There will forever be "experts" with opposing opinions. A lot of expert advice has been debunked in my 70 years of life. My sister's friend's parents had a boxer that lived a healthy life for 25 years. A lot of canine nutritionists and veterinarians paid visits to grasp an understanding of this particular dog's life. It boiled down to one thing. They fed the dog all of their home raised meat and vegetables on their remote farm. They fed the dog everything they ate. (No chemicals, additives, blah blah blah.) You can never be sure of a "source" unless you witness the process from start to finish. 

I would be interested to hear what you discover on your journey to protect Migo's health. We can all learn from each other but there will always be mitigating factors. Ya never know what those little scavengers will find and snap up and swallow faster than you can blink. (I'm feeding Tux Primal Raw and raw goat's milk). He seems to think there is more to be found to taste test outside on the ground. They definitely keep us on our toes.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

"Why would I go to her when I live right next to the third best vet school in the US?"

AVMA does not endorse raw diets http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/10/31/veterinary-practice.aspx


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## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

davetgabby said:


> "Why would I go to her when I live right next to the third best vet school in the US?"
> 
> AVMA does not endorse raw diets What are the Benefits of Grain-Based Ingredient in Pet Food?


Dr. Becker is absolutely right here. There are problems, especially because pet food manufacturers dictate what they are taught. I've been aware of this problem, but I'm still willing to see what he has to say about my research. There is an AHVMA DVM's near me as well, and I am considering comparing what they have to say, but regardless I should be able to subject my current diet to criticism from the AVMA DVM so that I can make the most informed decision for my Migo.


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## Pinkasaurus (Aug 13, 2017)

Thank you all for the help!


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## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

We went to see the nutritionists at CSU and our appointment went pretty well. They cannot recommend a raw diet due to liability and I expected this. The arguments were

obstruction from raw bone
bacteria from raw meat
raw meat diet does not provide fiber
fat content

I'm especially not concerned with the first two on that list. A dog's stomach has a pH of like 1-2 and they digest raw food quickly due to the intestines being so short since they are carnivores. Bacteria is much more of a risk for us humans than dogs.

I can see that Migo should have some fiber in his diet. He is currently not being fed any fur or feathers which is what typically provides fiber. I am going to introduce rabbit fur soon. If you feed your dog too much fiber though it actually inhibits digestion (this is from Dr. Becker).

I do, however, watch the fat content that I feed Migo. While essential fatty acids are important, fat should not be more than 10% of his diet.

They looked at his urinalysis, cbc and biochem. All were normal for a growing puppy. They also took an xray so that the radiologist can look at his bone density and overall growth. It was excellent. They also commented that he has good muscles. So far Migo is in great shape.

They are building Migo a diet plan while will be pretty detailed as far as which nutrients are coming from which source and how much of each nutrient is depleted from cooking (therefore requiring supplements). I have no plans to follow it to a T (I'm still feeding PMR) but it will give me a good comparison and let me know if I need to make any adjustments.

I am also seeing a holistic DVM in about a week to have another source of information. So far this process has given me more confidence in knowing that I'm doing the right thing for Migo.

Now if only I can get him to eat his krill oil..

Attached is one happy scruffball.


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