# Buyer Beware!



## Thumper

When I was googling for something unrelated this morning, I stumled upon the Wikepedia website's description of "Havanese" and guess who made it INTO the biggest, most used...encyclopedia on the internet?

Our own fantabulous Jan! :kiss:

Scroll down to "buyer beware" and there is a link to Jan's website and her ever so helpful information on _"how to find a good breeder!"_

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havanese

Jan, I know you love to reach out and educate people on searching for a reputable breeder, so this must be great to be recognized like this!

(PS. I emailed Jan this morning and asked her if she had contacted them or knew anything about this and she is in total shock!) I wonder if *I* am in the encyclopedia anywhere? LOL....maybe under "crazy dog lady"? ound:

Kara


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## Leslie

Yay Jan!!! :whoo::clap2::cheer2:


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## Doggie Nut

Oooh, we have a celebrity on board! Way to go!:whoo:


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## Thumper

Yes....a "celebrity", indeed! Its nice to realize your efforts to educate are not in vain, Jan! I know when you type up Havanese in most search engines, that website usually is one of the first few!

Kara


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## Leeann

Jan,


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## susaneckert

Way to go JAN!!!!!!! You are doing awsome work


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## Julie

How cool  is that!:cheer2:GO JAN :cheer2:


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## Missy

YOU'VE MADE IT BIG TIME JAN!!!! WAHOOO!


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## JASHavanese

I'm still in shock seeing my website in an online encyclopedia! I'm glad it's there though.


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## ama0722

Jan,
Just to think you were doubting your education efforts! Here you are educating anyone who googles havanese!

Congrats and keep up the great work!
Amanda


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## Thumper

ama0722 said:


> Jan,
> Just to think you were doubting your education efforts! Here you are educating anyone who googles havanese!
> 
> Congrats and keep up the great work!
> Amanda


Yes! No more "doubting" your efforts, Jan! 

Kara


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## Sissygirl

Great Job Jan!


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## Lina

Jan, that's wonderful! And you deserve every bit of praise for your ongoing breeding efforts in educating buyers and putting out great pups! Congrats! :whoo:


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## Paige

Way to go Jan:whoo:Now everyone will know how great of a breeder you are.


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## casperkeep

Way to go Jan...that is really cool....if I meet you some day I want your autograph....he he he!!!!! That is really nice that there is some very good info on these cuties!!!!


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## Thumper

I loved Jan's post on what to ask! I saved it to a word file  In her ever-so-passionate quest to educate us buyers on what to look for in a breeder!

_*Breeders, buyers* _
_I'm not quite sure what to say in this post, so I'm going to talk to you from my heart and hopefully the pieces of what I'm trying to say will fall together.
I think we breeders are failing the public and that makes me sad. If we were helping you, you'd know what to ask breeders about their puppies and you'd be able to make informed decisions that will affect your life for the next very many years, we hope.
Puppies are so very easy to fall in love with whether in person or in pictures but do we let our heart rule us or do we take a step back and take our hearts out of it for the moment? 
What do you ask a breeder? Here are some of the things I can think of off the top of my head.
What health testing has been done on the parents? 
What are the names of the sire and dam so that I can go to offa.org and look up the results myself?
How are the puppies raised?
Are there any known health issues in your dogs?
Do you stand behind your dogs and if so, what is your policy?
If there is a genetic problem with the puppy, what do you do?
If for some reason I can't keep the dog, what do you do?

And what should you expect from a breeder? Here are my requirements:
Soaped pictures of the sire and dam
Soaped pictures of the puppy
A good and honest relationship
One who is willing to help you at any hour of the day
One who wants to see that puppy as it grows whether in person or pictures
The websites to the sire and dam's offa.org pages.
There are times health tests aren't posted yet so expect the breeder to show you the paperwork and feel free to ask why it isn't in the database yet.
I'm in too much pain to keep typing so other breeders on the list please feel free to jump in with what you think we can do to better educate._
___________________
_


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## JASHavanese

casperkeep said:


> Way to go Jan...that is really cool....if I meet you some day I want your autograph....he he he!!!!! That is really nice that there is some very good info on these cuties!!!!


My handwriting is chicken scratch so you wouldn't want that  I do have a couple of ideas of how it got there (don't ask) and know what 2 states it was posted from (both back east) but that's all I know about it. 
When the HCA is ready to make a statement about it, I'm sure they'll take my website out and put something official there.


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## Poornima

Great job, Jan! :cheer2:


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## marjrc

I saw this on the big yahoo Hav list yesterday and asked Jan for her autograph! lol Way to go, Jan!!!!!!!!!!! :whoo::cheer2::cheer2::thumb::tea:


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## KristinFusco

I just clicked on the link, and I noticed that Kimberly's website is mentioned there as well!

Yay to Jan and Kimberly! 

I know that Wikipedia can be edited by the public, some people must be really impressed with your breeding programs to mention you. :biggrin1:

~Kristin


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## Havtahava

Someone deleted the whole Buyer Beware section. I think that is how my site got referenced. It was a link to my Buyer Beware page and some discussion on hybrids.

It looks like all the Havana Silk Dog stuff was removed as well.

Yes, a wiki is a site that can be edited by anyone. Most schools don't allow Wikipedia to be cited as a source for that reason, because it is perceived to be unreliable.


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## Thumper

Yeah,

I saw that you had added your site and some other stuff to it yesterday, I figured it was a matter of time. Although, the moderators there may put it back, you never know, 

Kara


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## Havtahava

It shows that the content was deleted by an anonymous user in Virginia Beach, but there are a lot of Hav people there.

Edited: Oh, I take that back. It says it was all deleted by someone in Washington DC.


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## Thumper

I suppose especially this weekend with the show going on. Who knows. I'm stayin' out of the fighting. lol

Kara


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## Thumper

From what I can tell on the history, the person is "havaheart". I did hit the previous button, so maybe it was me that left a mark. I have no clue what I'm doing though! lol. Usually my IP is never listed in Va beach.

Kara


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## Havtahava

Havaheart went in and changed the link from Jan's site to the HCA site. They didn't delete the whole section. That was done by a specific IP address in Wash DC.


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## JASHavanese

KristinFusco said:


> I just clicked on the link, and I noticed that Kimberly's website is mentioned there as well!
> 
> Yay to Jan and Kimberly!
> 
> I know that Wikipedia can be edited by the public, some people must be really impressed with your breeding programs to mention you. :biggrin1:
> 
> ~Kristin


Anyone can add their *external link* to that website. There are a few breeders who have put their links there. I'm guessing it's to show support for the HCA Havanese.


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## JASHavanese

Havtahava said:


> It shows that the content was deleted by an anonymous user in Virginia Beach, but there are a lot of Hav people there.
> 
> Edited: Oh, I take that back. It says it was all deleted by someone in Washington DC.


It shows that you modified the buyer beware section. What part did you change Kimberly? Was something wrong with it?


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## Havtahava

Actually Jan - anyone can go in there and edit anything.

I was reading through some of the past edits and there have been several sections on hybrids, including a link to a cross-breeder's site that was deleted at one point.


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## Havtahava

JASHavanese said:


> It shows that you modified the buyer beware section. What part did you change Kimberly? Was something wrong with it?


I changed a couple of words around in the crossbreed/hybrid section and added some of the hybrid names that are most commonly found in ads.


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## Thumper

I may have messed something up on accident trying to read the previous version? lol, whoops! I hope one of you knowledgable ones fixes it for me.

I saw that several breeders added links to their websites, but I really hope that these are all breeders that DO follow the proper health testing! 

Kara


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## Thumper

Oh and I think Wikepedia has pretty good moderators, they generally are pretty quick with abusive editing.

Kara


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## Havtahava

The problem is that editing is subjective.

Oh yes, I edited one other thing. Where it talked about a group of Havanese breeders that had broken off, it started with "Recently" and I modified that to say "In the summer of 2007" to prevent a more accurate timeline because "recent" is subjective as well. However, that all got deleted too.


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## Thumper

Ohhhh, this is just the beginning. I suspect this will go on for weeks, if not months. The link must be on a breeder's list.

Kara


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## Havtahava

If you look at the history, you can see that it has been pretty heavily edited on a regular basis - big sections added, then modified, then completely deleted. However, there have been 14 edits just since yesterday morning. LOL!


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## Thumper

The best way to "resolve" this, is to get the HCA to come up with a "statement". Atleast, I think that would be helpful. 

Kara


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## JASHavanese

Thumperlove said:


> The best way to "resolve" this, is to get the HCA to come up with a "statement". Atleast, I think that would be helpful.
> 
> Kara


They're working on it Kara. The board is working overtime on so many things and I have a ton of faith in them. You'll see something from them soon.


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## Greg

the most recent edit was done by Gogo Dodo
This user is an administrator on the English Wikipedia. (verify) 
This user has written or significantly contributed to 2 featured list(s) on Wikipedia. 
This user is a recent changes patroller. 
25,000+ This user has made over 25,000 contributions to Wikipedia. 
vn-195 This user page has been vandalized 195 times. 
This user has a page on Meta-Wiki. 
This user has a page on Wikimedia Commons.


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## Havtahava

Interesting edits. Gogo Dogo removed all the below info stating that Wikipedia is not a consumer alert service:


> - == Miscellaneous ==
> - ===Buyer beware===
> -
> - In the summer of 2007, a small group of Havanese breeders formed their own club in an attempt to promote a new breed that they have called the Havana Silk Dog. These dogs are indeed AKC registered Havanese, not a unique breed.
> -
> - The names Havanese, Havana Silk Dog, and Bichon Habanero are used interchangeably to refer to one and the '''same''' dog; the '''Havanese''', the only dog from Cuba. (Please see the Alternative Names section above).
> -
> - There is more information available at http://www.havanese.org/. The Havanese Club of America will be coming out with an official statement shortly.
> -
> - The Havanese is an expensive and rare dog, and the cost of getting a dog from a breeder who takes the time to put them through the right health tests can drive the price to $2000 or more. Be aware of anyone who is selling a Havanese through a pet store, for they could be fake. There is a lot of time and money invested into a healthy puppy, and a responsible breeder should want to meet you, often a few times, before selling you a puppy.
> -
> - Many people use the Havanese's rarity to sell them for a fast profit. Increasingly, some people will attempt to pass off [[Dog hybrids and crossbreeds|a crossbreed]] as the Havanese. If you must look for an inexpensive dog, try a Havanese rescue group first.
> -
> - Likewise, some people will sell their crossbreeds (or "hybrids") under a variety of names including Havapoo, Havaton, Hava-Apso, Cavanese, Havachin, and will charge you a much higher price stating that it is a rare mix.


All breeders and rescue links were removed as well.


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## Greg

I think the Wiki reviews the edits of listings that are frequently edited.


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## Havtahava

That would make sense. The Havanese article had over 25 edits in just a couple of days. I would think that would draw some attention to it.


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## Thumper

It kinda cracks me up how much this has changed. I mean, heck...it changed 15 X the first hour after I posted it. LOL

I'm sure the Wikepedia "police" know something is going on. Contrite.

Kara


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## Havtahava

If you look at the history on the article, it looks like it goes through many rashes in edit. On Sept 30 & Oct 1, it went through 10 edits in that 24 hour period. Early June had a large number of edits as well. I guess it is just the cyclical nature of a wiki.


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## Thumper

I haven't been there for days. No desire to get caught up in that. I like to think I have a life! LOL

Kara​


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## Melissa Miller

I have not paid attention to this much, but you know you cant depend on what the IP address is listed at. There are a ton of IP addys that revert to VA. Before I moved, I always showed up in random places, never Dallas or even Texas.


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## Thumper

That is true. Mine is never in Virginia Beach, I've even seen my IP show ip in Atlanta.

AOL IP's are all over the place!

Kara


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## Havtahava

Oh yes, AOL's IP addresses are crazy.


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## irnfit

not too long ago, there was a news story about Wiki. It was about how kids were using it to get info for reports, but it was all wrong and kids were getting bad grades.


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## Havtahava

Michele, many teachers won't allow it to be used as a sole source because there is no credibility in and of itself. The high school where I worked last year would allow it as an initial resource, so long as it was backed up with other published sources that would endorse the same information.


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## Greg

That's because much of what is in Wiki is as much opinion as fact.


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## Melissa Miller

Remember when some teenager posted a fake obit about a guy and then I think he died after that? It was wild and sad....


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