# CAN A BREEDER REALY CONTROL?



## Suzi

I have a contract that states I must spay by feb .
I do not think it is a good time for my dog to be spayed. 
Do I have any rights?
Or does it just mean she can not be registered as Havanese?


----------



## HavaneseSoon

Maddie would be 6 months old. Why would you not want to spay at that time?


----------



## kudo2u

I just read this question, and I read your other question about full vs limited registration.

In all honesty, it sounds like the breeder did the right thing by selling her to you under limited registration and by requiring a spay contract. On one hand, you are saying she might "surprise us all" so you would like to hold off getting her spayed. But on the other hand, you are concerned because she has issues with her skin, and because she may be on the small side.

If you do get her spayed, you can still do many things with her in the show ring. Just not conformation. 

And I'm going to say something really controversial here, that will probably hurt your feelings. So I will apologize in advance, not just to you, but to everyone who I offend...

If you want to start breeding dogs, Maddie is not the dog to start with. She is your first purebred dog, and starting a good breeding program takes TIME. You need knowledge of many, many things. I would suggest getting her spayed like your contract states, traning her for the show ring, and start attending dog shows. Start meeting breeders, handlers, and other knowledgable people in the industry. Then, in another year or two, you can work with a reputable breeder (who you will know from your time in the show ring). They will sell you PART ownership of a show-quality dog and the spay contract will look MUCH different from the one you have with Maddie.

In all honesty, although I have not seen the contract, nothing about it sounds "fishy" to me. Well, them asking for more money for full registration does - that would scare me a bit. But the actual contract requiring Maddie to be spayed by February and limiting registration, that is normal. The vast majority of dogs coming from responsible breeders are sold this way.

I know it sounds fun and interesting to show Maddie, and I'm sure you will both have a great time. But your first purebred dog should not be the stock for a breeding program.

Again, just my opinion, and I'm sorry if I've hurt your feelings or offended anyone. But I will stand firmly behind that belief!


----------



## LilyMyLove

I completely agree with you. Also, it would be tremendously irresponsible to breed a dog whose parents had had zero health testing (nothing is posting on OFFA) and had already had some health problems itself.

Also, I wouldn't get into breeding to make money. Aside from all the expenses (if you do it right) there is no guarantee you will sell the pups. Havanese breeders are not a rarity nowadays.


----------



## krandall

I agree, from everything you've told us, Maddie is a darling pet, and probably has what it takes to be a wonderful little agility dog. But at one time or another, you have told us about a problem with one of her legs, her poor coat and her skin problems and the fact that she is probably going to mature under size. These are not the attributes of a breeding animal.

If you wanted to postpone spaying Maddie for a health reason, I suspect your breeder would work with you. If the reason is to breed her, I'd be VERY surprised if her breeder would change her mind. So if you DID breed her, you'd be producing puppies from a line of dogs without health testing, whose mother has already had health problems as a puppy and who are not registered. Could you sell them to someone who doesn't know any better? Probably. But then you would be part of the problems in the Havanese breed rather than the solution.

Follow the advice of the other folks who have already posted. Enjoy her as the wonderful pet she is, and if you are seriously interested in developing a breeding PROGRAM (a VERY expensive, time consuming endevour!!!) find yourself an experienced mentor with an established breeding program that you respect to help you on your way.


----------



## The Laughing Magpie

I have been keeping to myself on this because there are so many patient and concerned voices out here. So let me just give you a different view. Do you understand your contract. Some contract's allow the Breeder to take the dog back for breech of contract. Also I know show breeders who have taken dogs back usually it is a show contract and the other never did anything to prove they were going to show the dog. How contracts are written and inforced are different state. You need to be careful.


----------



## Thumper

Suzi said:


> I have a contract that states I must spay by feb .
> I do not think it is a good time for my dog to be spayed.
> Do I have any rights?
> Or does it just mean she can not be registered as Havanese?


Why do you not think its a good time?

Kara


----------



## Suzi

I am planning on spaying her. I decided that a while ago. I would like to wait tell after her first heat. I have herd it is better for her . My vet says it does not matter. I guess I am just not ready. Zoey and her play hard and I would be worried she might hurt herself. Although it might be a better time to have her foot looked at to see if it can be fixed and I would know sooner than later about the SA. I am planning on going to a show in portland this month and have talked with several breeders who will be their. And then their is another one in feb that is close by. I plan on bring Zoey to let professionals take a look at her. 
Can I look up to see if Maddies breeder even registered the litter some how?


----------



## jenisny

You can look up the parents on the AKC website, but the litter might not be registered until after the spaying/neutering. My breeder files the paperwork upon proof of neutering.


----------



## JASHavanese

Suzi said:


> I have a contract that states I must spay by feb .
> I do not think it is a good time for my dog to be spayed.
> Do I have any rights?
> Or does it just mean she can not be registered as Havanese?


Why did you sign the contract if you didn't agree with it? I do agree with you though about waiting to spay and I have asked my puppy buyers to wait until they are over at least a year old. That however does not change the contract you signed.
You bet a breeder can come after you and a buyer can go after the breeder if the terms of the agreement aren't met.


----------



## JASHavanese

Suzi said:


> I plan on bring Zoey to let professionals take a look at her.
> Can I look up to see if Maddies breeder even registered the litter some how?


What is it you're going to ask professionals about? 
You can call AKC at 919 233-9767


----------



## mellowbo

Your breeder fulfilled her part of the contract. Shouldn't you fulfill yours? Just sayin'......


----------



## Suzi

I do not understand what you are talking about, 
I just do not feel it is a good time to spay her and I was wondering if I had any rights.


----------



## The Laughing Magpie

You have rights you signed away your right to decide whether to spay or not. You signed a contract that says you promise you will spay your pet. If you did not sign I am willing to bet the breeder would not have let you buy a dog from her. You have stated over and over you think Maddie is show quality and you want puppies. How do you expect to be a responsible breeder if you can't even honor a contract on your first dog? Many breeders have first dogs they never even showed...they fell in love with the breed. Also good breeders do their home work and build a good foundation. This is what honest people do to be successful. Takeing your dog to one show does not make it a champion...you generally go many shows and today you will be competing against professional handlers. If you have never shown you need to learn, that means classes for both you and your dog. Breeding comes down the road and you need to build relationships with other breeders and learn about all aspects of breeding. Also it take money!!!! It is expensive hobby. If you don't build a good foundation and take the steps necessary to be a responsible breeder, you will be nothing more then a backyard breeder. Right now in our local paper is a BB with an add for Havanese puppies $600 . I am pretty sure the rescue I put up on the forum was from this breeder and the previous add was 3 mostly blacks. Why do I think this breeder? Because they all have the same bad bite among other things. You chose Maddie honor your contract and be responsible get her spayed, you know its not health that is driving you, whats worse is everyone on this forum has repeatedly heard you talk about breeding. You signed a contract that says they can take back your dog if you breech the contract, don't risk it. Enjoy you Maddie her puppy day are going to pass you by with this foolishness. All our dogs are stars and Best in Show at home.


----------



## Thumper

Suzi said:


> I am planning on spaying her. I decided that a while ago. I would like to wait tell after her first heat. I have herd it is better for her . My vet says it does not matter. I guess I am just not ready. Zoey and her play hard and I would be worried she might hurt herself. Although it might be a better time to have her foot looked at to see if it can be fixed and I would know sooner than later about the SA. I am planning on going to a show in portland this month and have talked with several breeders who will be their. And then their is another one in feb that is close by. I plan on bring Zoey to let professionals take a look at her.
> Can I look up to see if Maddies breeder even registered the litter some how?


Okay, I waited until after Gucci's first heat to spay her, I did a but-ton of research on it and while some people say it is better, keep in mind, there are also additional risks to waiting. The 2 biggest ones' are that

Recovery is MUCH harder

Gucci took almost a week to recover and was in mega-pain, she literally cried for a 2-3 days, tears coming out of her eyes....crying

and the other downside to waiting is the risk for cancer increases.

Do you know what the benefits are aside from just 'hearing it is better'? I'm just curious if the person that told you to wait told you what the reasons were?

I suppose if I was a breeder and I was approached by someone who had valid reasons to wait (other than breeding) and I felt okay that they could prevent an 'accidental' litter, I would surely consider their wishes.
The 6 month spay is mainly to prevent so many unplanned litters... and you really have to watch them when the go outside to just pee, some male dogs will jump fences and dig holes to get to a bitch in heat.

Kara


----------



## KSC

Suzi said:


> I am planning on spaying her. I decided that a while ago. I would like to wait tell after her first heat. I have herd it is better for her . My vet says it does not matter. I guess I am just not ready. Zoey and her play hard and I would be worried she might hurt herself. Although it might be a better time to have her foot looked at to see if it can be fixed and I would know sooner than later about the SA. I am planning on going to a show in portland this month and have talked with several breeders who will be their. And then their is another one in feb that is close by. I plan on bring Zoey to let professionals take a look at her.
> Can I look up to see if Maddies breeder even registered the litter some how?


There are many different qustions in your responses....I do wonder why you wouldn't simply listen to your vet. Get her spayed as per your contract. She will live not palying with Zoey for a day or two. Recovery really isn't that bad. Saying "I have heard..." makes me wonder what your sources are...clearly this argument has gone back and forth for some time now. The right thing to do is to spay her as per your contract.


----------



## bellasmom

Not trying to get in the middle of anything here but we just took Bella to her first vet appointment. We talked about spaying and I asked if it would be better to wait until after a first heat. The vet was adamantly against it. She said the risk of mammary, breast and another cancer (can't remember which one) were MUCH greater to the puppy by waiting. She said if you wait until after just one heat you still get some protection but not as much and if you wait too long you lose the protection against those certain cancers.

Wondering what the benefit would be to waiting if these are the benefits against it? Providing, of course, you are not wanting to breed her.

Just curious about any benefits of waiting?


----------



## Suzi

JASHavanese said:


> What is it you're going to ask professionals about?
> You can call AKC at 919 233-9767


 Thank you for the phone number.
Kara that was good information. For some reason it is just a gut feeling to wait tell she is full grown. I would also like to do a* few other tests* while she is under and I have NOT arranged for the SA study They want dogs a year old.
I need to talk to them to see if maddie can be excepted in the study sooner.
I am also going to have her foot xray to see why it is turned out. My contract states that they will pay up to $500.00 of medical bills if the dog has a genetic life threatening disorder Or take her back. We all know I would never do that.

I have joined a Havanese club called Oregon Trail Havanese and have had several nice breeders and others respond to my Emails. I want to find out if I would enjoy showing. Even though I went a bit backwards again with ZOEY
Not buying from someone who shows. The rest of the breeders professionalism was right up to what is expected . Some of you would disagree. 
I sent of my final Email to Maddies Breeder asking to wait a bit and have not herd back.
Final statement Maddie is not going to ever have puppys


----------



## krandall

Suzi said:


> I would also like to do a* few other tests* while she is under and I have NOT arranged for the SA study They want dogs a year old.
> I need to talk to them to see if maddie can be excepted in the study sooner.
> I am also going to have her foot xray to see why it is turned out. My contract states that they will pay up to $500.00 of medical bills if the dog has a genetic life threatening disorder Or take her back. We all know I would never do that.


I don't think it would take any time to speak of to arrange to have Maddie's foot x-rayed. I have no idea what's involved in the S.A. study, and whether the dog needs to be anesthetized for that. It would seem to me that they wouldn't have many participants in the study if that was necessary.

As far as your contract is concerned, neither SA (if she has it, nor a crooked foot (even if it's a genetic problem, which would probably be VERY hard to prove) is a life threatening condition. So as far as I can see, neither would be affected by your contract one way or the other.

Also, a couple of posts back, one of your "excuses" for not spaying Maddie now is that you are afraid that she might hurt herself playing with Zoey. With two dogs, that's going to be an issue WHENEVER you get it done. In fact, Zoey is likely to be much more rambunctious in another 6 months than she is now. Will that be an excuse to delay spaying Maddie even longer?



Suzi said:


> I have joined a Havanese club called Oregon Trail Havanese and have had several nice breeders and others respond to my Emails. I want to find out if I would enjoy showing. Even though I went a bit backwards again with ZOEY
> Not buying from someone who shows. The rest of the breeders professionalism was right up to what is expected . Some of you would disagree.
> I sent of my final Email to Maddies Breeder asking to wait a bit and have not herd back.
> Final statement Maddie is not going to ever have puppys


Suzi, why, oh WHY, after you've been on this forum for months, and read all the messages on how to pick a good breeder, would you go and buy another puppy from another questionable source? Zoey is cute as the dickens, but I don't understand this at all.


----------



## Suzi

krandall said:


> I don't think it would take any time to speak of to arrange to have Maddie's foot x-rayed. I have no idea what's involved in the S.A. study, and whether the dog needs to be anesthetized for that. It would seem to me that they wouldn't have many participants in the study if that was necessary.
> 
> As far as your contract is concerned, neither SA (if she has it, nor a crooked foot (even if it's a genetic problem, which would probably be VERY hard to prove) is a life threatening condition. So as far as I can see, neither would be affected by your contract one way or the other.
> 
> Also, a couple of posts back, one of your "excuses" for not spaying Maddie now is that you are afraid that she might hurt herself playing with Zoey. With two dogs, that's going to be an issue WHENEVER you get it done. In fact, Zoey is likely to be much more rambunctious in another 6 months than she is now. Will that be an excuse to delay spaying Maddie even longer?
> 
> Suzi, why, oh WHY, after you've been on this forum for months, and read all the messages on how to pick a good breeder, would you go and buy another puppy from another questionable source? Zoey is cute as the dickens, but I don't understand this at all.


 I did not feel she to be a questionable source . Just because she is not into showing does not mean that her Havanese are not Quality dogs . Zoey and I are just going to see if we like the world of showing and I needed a full papered dog inorder to do that without restrictions . She has a contract that if we do decide to breed her that all the required health test will be completed and that all puppy's will be pet. She will never have puppy's that can be full registration. 
If we do enjoy showing I can decide then if I want to start a Breeding program , and find a breeder who shows to sponsor me. 
Yes you are right I have gone about it backwards. I now have two Havanese . Maddie will be spayed. I am getting into it all threw the back door. At least I now have a dog who I can learn with and see if this is all something I would like to do. Yes I could have done that with another breeder I just could not find anyone in my area willing to do that with me.


----------



## sashamom

I rarely get involved in the more controversial posts because I too, went about getting Sasha the wrong way. I did my research but did not truly understand the problems with on line breeders. That said I am weighing in on this subject. Please get her spayed on schedule as agreed in your contract. That fulfills two items, first it takes away your arguing with people who are trying to better the breed and removes your temptation, and second you are showing that you are a responsible person by doing what you agreed to in your contract. I have been in the legal field for more years than I care to admit and it concerns me that you make comments about your breeder but plan to ignore your legal obligation. Just enjoy your little one. I certainly love mine but even so I would never consider her a good choice to breed. eace:


----------



## krandall

Suzi said:


> I did not feel she to be a questionable source . Just because she is not into showing does not mean that her Havanese are not Quality dogs . Zoey and I are just going to see if we like the world of showing and I needed a full papered dog inorder to do that without restrictions . She has a contract that if we do decide to breed her that all the required health test will be completed and that all puppy's will be pet. She will never have puppy's that can be full registration.
> If we do enjoy showing I can decide then if I want to start a Breeding program , and find a breeder who shows to sponsor me.
> Yes you are right I have gone about it backwards. I now have two Havanese . Maddie will be spayed. I am getting into it all threw the back door. At least I now have a dog who I can learn with and see if this is all something I would like to do. Yes I could have done that with another breeder I just could not find anyone in my area willing to do that with me.


I'm sorry, but this still makes NO sense to me. WHY would you breed a dog just to produce pet quality puppies? You're not doing anything to improve the breed. I don't get it.


----------



## LilyMyLove

This is all so confusing and frankly sounds completely half-assed sideways way to go about such a serious venture. If you are not going to be honest in the forum about your intensions with Maddie, at least be honest with yourself. 

Its a little insulting to all the people that spend time posting and educating others about how to pick a responsible breeder and better the breed, that you have been on this forum and read all of the info, but are still just doing whatever you want. 

Is there a financial obligation here? Did you buy these dogs planning on breeding them to sell and pay back their price? Its not adding up otherwise. Was this a business plan that you feel like you need to follow through on? There is such a sense of urgency to your actions and all the waffling makes me think there is something more to this.


----------



## Suzi

krandall said:


> I'm sorry, but this still makes NO sense to me. WHY would you breed a dog just to produce pet quality puppies? You're not doing anything to improve the breed. I don't get it.


 I think we are talking in circles. At this time all I want to do is get familiar and have hands on experience in the world of showing. If I find I enjoy it I will have meet a variety of breeders . I could get a male Havanese and start showing him. From what I have learned it is very rare that a dog scores excellent on the hip test. Zoeys mom and dad both scored GOOD at the vets. The Dam scored fair with the Orthopedic Foundation. I am waiting to find out what he scores with the Foundation.
I have been told that if the foundation scores fair that would be a good reason not to breed . You should not breed two dogs that score fair on the hip test. Zoey would then not be a good dog to improve the breed.
You might ask why the breeder had a litter of puppy's before she registered him with the OFA . She was not planning a litter it was something called a silent heat she did not want to abort the puppy's . The sire was shiped over from Hungery and turned two in July. I was given all the paper work on both them and both sides have champion dogs down the line.
I do not understand if I do all the right things and only breed if the foundation gives the sire a good why would that not be for the good of the breed. Is it because the puppys would be spayed.


----------



## Suzi

LilyMyLove said:


> This is all so confusing and frankly sounds completely half-assed sideways way to go about such a serious venture. If you are not going to be honest in the forum about your intensions with Maddie, at least be honest with yourself.
> 
> Its a little insulting to all the people that spend time posting and educating others about how to pick a responsible breeder and better the breed, that you have been on this forum and read all of the info, but are still just doing whatever you want.
> 
> Is there a financial obligation here? Did you buy these dogs planning on breeding them to sell and pay back their price? Its not adding up otherwise. Was this a business plan that you feel like you need to follow through on? There is such a sense of urgency to your actions and all the waffling makes me think there is something more to this.


 I'll I can say is wow.


----------



## The Laughing Magpie

Suzi, Number one there is no substitute for good breeding. It now seems both of your dogs do not come from the best of breeders. I have never heard of a good breeder giving papers for the dam to produce pet puppies. Good breeders often have pet quality pups because they all are not show quality. They are looking for the best of the best. I show be no mystery to you why you could not find a good show breeder to sell you a dog!!! You haven't even taken poor Maddie to the vet for her paw!!!! Yet you bought another dog to breed (after the show career of course). This is just not responsible behavior!!!! When entering the show world most people learn all they can and understand that it is the total package and they buy the best dog they can afford and do take the steps to show others that they are a good prospect to be a show breeder. Where I go to do dog training over 50 percent of the dogs are champions yet only a few are breeding it was in their contract to take the dog to championship, yet they decided not breed and to go for other titles with their pet.


----------



## LilyMyLove

I recall someone who's mom or dad purchased their dogs for them with the understanding they would be part of a breeding program. I am sorry if thats not you.

Its really frustrating on the forum when people come on here with one dog from a BYB or mill that has extensive health issues and everyone talks them through all of that, all while discussing responsible breeding and breeders etc, and then the same person goes out and gets another dog without a solid amount of research really quickly. This happens frequently--and then to get into breeding etc. with so much inexperience and impulsivity is crazy making.

It makes it undesirable for me to be on the forum daily because it seems like such a waste of time to get involved emotionally and read about these sad situations. Several posts back and forth about breeding and spaying and contracts etc. Exhausting. People just end up doing what they wanted to do in the first place, its talking about it just to talk and its tiring. 

Alot of people here didn't get their dogs from the best situations, but they take it in and learn and make a better choice the next time--and then don't even think about breeding those dogs. 

I am sorry if my directness is offensive, but this isn't my first time at the rodeo, so to speak.


----------



## Suzi

The Laughing Magpie said:


> Suzi, Number one there is no substitute for good breeding. It now seems both of your dogs do not come from the best of breeders. I have never heard of a good breeder giving papers for the dam to produce pet puppies. Good breeders often have pet quality pups because they all are not show quality. They are looking for the best of the best. I show be no mystery to you why you could not find a good show breeder to sell you a dog!!! You haven't even taken poor Maddie to the vet for her paw!!!! Yet you bought another dog to breed (after the show career of course). This is just not responsible behavior!!!! When entering the show world most people learn all they can and understand that it is the total package and they buy the best dog they can afford and do take the steps to show others that they are a good prospect to be a show breeder. Where I go to do dog training over 50 percent of the dogs are champions yet only a few are breeding it was in their contract to take the dog to championship, yet they decided not breed and to go for other titles with their pet.


 I have taken Maddie to the vet for her paw.


----------



## krandall

Suzi said:


> I think we are talking in circles. At this time all I want to do is get familiar and have hands on experience in the world of showing. If I find I enjoy it I will have meet a variety of breeders . I could get a male Havanese and start showing him. From what I have learned it is very rare that a dog scores excellent on the hip test. Zoeys mom and dad both scored GOOD at the vets. The Dam scored fair with the Orthopedic Foundation. I am waiting to find out what he scores with the Foundation.
> I have been told that if the foundation scores fair that would be a good reason not to breed . You should not breed two dogs that score fair on the hip test. Zoey would then not be a good dog to improve the breed.
> You might ask why the breeder had a litter of puppy's before she registered him with the OFA . She was not planning a litter it was something called a silent heat she did not want to abort the puppy's . The sire was shiped over from Hungery and turned two in July. I was given all the paper work on both them and both sides have champion dogs down the line.
> I do not understand if I do all the right things and only breed if the foundation gives the sire a good why would that not be for the good of the breed. Is it because the puppys would be spayed.


OK, that's HIPS. What about the rest of their testing? Are you also going to do all that testing on Zoey? As far as "champions down the line" is concerned, it means nothing. It's a small gene pool. You can find puppy mill puppies whose brokers can (legitimately) make the same claim. Same with MANY BYB's. That doesn't make them good dogs.

Now you're taking about getting yet ANOTHER Hav, (male) which I have to assume you want to do so you can breed it to Zoey. Any reputable breeder isn't going to give you full registration on a male dog that you plan to breed to a female that is not likely to bring something just as good to the table. So you will likely end up with another not-so-well bred male dog.

I hate to be blunt, but you are setting yourself up to be just another back yard breeder.  And, yes, if your ONLY purpose is to produce pet quality, neutered puppies, you are not doing anything positive for the breed. Even when breeders are doing their absolute best to produce TOP quality puppies, only a very few make the grade. All the rest should be (and usually are) neutered and removed from the gene pool. There are already many too many poorly bred Hav puppies out there that need good homes. Why add to that? :nono:


----------



## Carol

I have only one question - why would you show a dog that you are not planning on breeding? Bringing a dog into the conformation ring is all about looking for affirmation that your dog conforms to the breed standard when judged against a group of his/her peers. My mentor would not even consider putting a dog in the ring if that dog wasn't the best of her best. If your dog is not a good representation of the breed, and you do not have complete heath info on the sire and dam of your dog on OFA - why waste your time and money on bringing that dog into the ring? Just love that baby!!!


----------



## Suzi

krandall said:


> OK, that's HIPS. What about the rest of their testing? Are you also going to do all that testing on Zoey? As far as "champions down the line" is concerned, it means nothing. It's a small gene pool. You can find puppy mill puppies whose brokers can (legitimately) make the same claim. Same with MANY BYB's. That doesn't make them good dogs.
> 
> Now you're taking about getting yet ANOTHER Hav, (male) which I have to assume you want to do so you can breed it to Zoey. Any reputable breeder isn't going to give you full registration on a male dog that you plan to breed to a female that is not likely to bring something just as good to the table. So you will likely end up with another not-so-well bred male dog.
> 
> I hate to be blunt, but you are setting yourself up to be just another back yard breeder.  And, yes, if your ONLY purpose is to produce pet quality, neutered puppies, you are not doing anything positive for the breed. Even when breeders are doing their absolute best to produce TOP quality puppies, only a very few make the grade. All the rest should be (and usually are) neutered and removed from the gene pool. There are already many too many poorly bred Hav puppies out there that need good homes. Why add to that? :nono:


 No i am required to do all the health testing . And thank you for amusing the worst. I am not very good at writing and I do have a lot to learn . If only a few make the grade and we are relying on those few to preserve this breed what will happen.? Tell me I just want to do what is right. I have also read that any good handler can bring a dog to a championship does that mean that that dog is one of the few? I would think it would be more important to have good bone structure and health than just some very well trained dog in a show ring. But who am I to say I know nothing. I just love this breed and I have my retired years to give towards learning more and doing what I feel like is right . Now matter what I am doing I am doing for the love of the breed. So call me what you want argue every thing I have said I really do not care.

I am talking about Zoey I have stated more than once that Maddie is geting spayed!


----------



## Suzi

Suzi said:


> I have a contract that states I must spay by feb .
> I do not think it is a good time for my dog to be spayed.
> Do I have any rights?
> Or does it just mean she can not be registered as Havanese?


 I learned that yes my breeder does have control over when I get my dog spayed . I would still like to wait but if it means legal actions and the possibility of the breeder taking her away from me it is not worth it. And my vet said it would be easier to take a picture of her leg with her sedated and the SA test does have some evasive hurtful stuff that would be good to do while she is sedated.


----------



## Cailleach

Suzi said:


> No i am required to do all the health testing . And thank you for amusing the worst. I am not very good at writing and I do have a lot to learn . If only a few make the grade and we are relying on those few to preserve this breed what will happen.? Tell me I just want to do what is right. I have also read that any good handler can bring a dog to a championship does that mean that that dog is one of the few? I would think it would be more important to have good bone structure and health than just some very well trained dog in a show ring. But who am I to say I know nothing. I just love this breed and I have my retired years to give towards learning more and doing what I feel like is right . Now matter what I am doing I am doing for the love of the breed. So call me what you want argue every thing I have said I really do not care.
> 
> I am talking about Zoey I have stated more than once that Maddie is geting spayed!


Suzi if you really do love the breed then please do not create a situation where you well be creating more unwanted pet quality pups. People who truly love this breed know that dogs fit to be bred must be the best of the best and breeding iffy dogs in hopes they that might be show quality is not helpful to the breed. Retirement years are not best spent by breeding our breed in hopes of making money for a retirement fund selling dogs. These days potential buyers want/demand a lifetime guarantee on the dogs they purchase plus breeder support.

People who know what they are doing and have experience will certainly ensure the breed doesn't go extinct. The last thing this breed needs is novices with dreams of ribbons and trophies breeding inferior dogs. A good handler titling a dog is still getting points but with dogs that don't belong in the breeding arena, can be done over years and I do mean years. Nobody looking for quality dogs is going to be impressed with a slow finishing dog no matter how many shows it's shown in nor by who, may as well do it by yourself, way cheaper.

Ask yourself this...

What type of lifetime guarantee can you offer to puppy buyers at retirement age. As a novice, what support have you to offer? Explain to us what your goals are because it is really starting to look like you are setting yourself up as a novice breeder who has lofty goals but in reality should actually try taking your dogs into the show world, since that's what you are interested in and reality might give you a rude awakening. Seriously go this route first, Havs do make wonderful pets but there's no reason to breed in fear they will go extinct.


----------



## krandall

Suzi said:


> No i am required to do all the health testing . And thank you for amusing the worst. I am not very good at writing and I do have a lot to learn . If only a few make the grade and we are relying on those few to preserve this breed what will happen.? Tell me I just want to do what is right. I have also read that any good handler can bring a dog to a championship does that mean that that dog is one of the few? I would think it would be more important to have good bone structure and health than just some very well trained dog in a show ring. But who am I to say I know nothing. I just love this breed and I have my retired years to give towards learning more and doing what I feel like is right . Now matter what I am doing I am doing for the love of the breed. So call me what you want argue every thing I have said I really do not care.
> 
> I am talking about Zoey I have stated more than once that Maddie is geting spayed!


Suzi, a number of people here have given you a LOT of information in terms of why you shouldn't do what you are doing. YOU know it too, or you wouldn't start by telling us you know you're doing it ack bassward and then keep changing your story. You blame your writing ability, but it seems to me that what you are saying is as clear as glass. And the more you explain, the the more clear it is that you don't want to take the advice you ask for. The real shame is that you are shooting yourself in the foot. By doing it all backwards, you will end up in a position where the GOOD breeders will NEVER want to entrust their dogs to you or your "breeding program". (I use that term lightly)

I'm done. You're going to do what you're going to do, no matter what anyone says, and the rest of us have to just feel sad that there will be just one more BYB for people to avoid in the pacific NW.


----------



## rokipiki

I live in Europe, so I don't really understand all that business with contract when buying dogs. It seems so hard to buy a good hav in US! The other thing that is strange to me is that contract contains obligation to spay/neuter dogs! Man who bred my Roki has becom a kind of friend to me and he knows all the names of the people he sold dogs to. He is vet and he recomends not to spay/neuter because it is bad for health, especially if you decide to do it when dog is too young. Havs are growing up to one year and if you want to have dog with strong and well formed bones you will let him/her have all their hormones because they are a very important factor for bone and muscle quality. Sexual hormones are also very important for whole endocrine system of the body - sooner or latter spayed/neutered dog will have some kind of hormonal disbalance. My neighbour's bichon frisee girl (spayed) has Cushings disease (adrenal gland disfunction) an vet who diagnosed it said that it one of side effects of spaying (lack of sexual hormones). Spaying/neutering is big business for vet clinics. 
Suzi, it seems that Maddie has a number of hereditary health problems and I understand that you are concerned abot her wellbeing. I also cannot imagine good breeder who is selling puppies with hereditary health problems. He knew that and he made you sign contract. Try to talk to him for Maddies sake. I also understand that you would like to experience showing your dog. I can tell you it is really great experience - we went to two shows. First time Roki got all excellent marks, but refused to walk in ring. He was so confused. But very strict judge from France gave me the proof that Roki has excellent genetic line. Second show was full sucess. 
I think that problem with havaneze in US is that they very quickly became very popular (5th place on the most popular list). In the book "Small dogs, big hearts" I've read that not long ago havaneze were extremely halthy breed without bad genes, but author also wrote that great demand for them in US caused "overbreeding" which resulted with bad genes and hereditary diseases. Maddie is pobably victim of that process. So do not breed her. 
If you really want to show and breed my recomendation is to try to get hav from Europe. You will introduce new genetic line which is extremely good for breed in general. Ancestors of Roki came from all over the Europe - France, Netherlands, Sweden, Hungary, Germany, Switzerland... I know that some breeders are selling their puppies to Americans and Canadians. 
Do all to protect little Maddie! good luck and many kisses to little girl!


----------



## krandall

rokipiki said:


> I live in Europe, so I don't really understand all that business with contract when buying dogs. It seems so hard to buy a good hav in US! The other thing that is strange to me is that contract contains obligation to spay/neuter dogs! Man who bred my Roki has becom a kind of friend to me and he knows all the names of the people he sold dogs to. He is vet and he recomends not to spay/neuter because it is bad for health, especially if you decide to do it when dog is too young. Havs are growing up to one year and if you want to have dog with strong and well formed bones you will let him/her have all their hormones because they are a very important factor for bone and muscle quality. Sexual hormones are also very important for whole endocrine system of the body - sooner or latter spayed/neutered dog will have some kind of hormonal disbalance. My neighbour's bichon frisee girl (spayed) has Cushings disease (adrenal gland disfunction) an vet who diagnosed it said that it one of side effects of spaying (lack of sexual hormones). Spaying/neutering is big business for vet clinics.
> Suzi, it seems that Maddie has a number of hereditary health problems and I understand that you are concerned abot her wellbeing. I also cannot imagine good breeder who is selling puppies with hereditary health problems. He knew that and he made you sign contract. Try to talk to him for Maddies sake. I also understand that you would like to experience showing your dog. I can tell you it is really great experience - we went to two shows. First time Roki got all excellent marks, but refused to walk in ring. He was so confused. But very strict judge from France gave me the proof that Roki has excellent genetic line. Second show was full sucess.
> I think that problem with havaneze in US is that they very quickly became very popular (5th place on the most popular list). In the book "Small dogs, big hearts" I've read that not long ago havaneze were extremely halthy breed without bad genes, but author also wrote that great demand for them in US caused "overbreeding" which resulted with bad genes and hereditary diseases. Maddie is pobably victim of that process. So do not breed her.
> If you really want to show and breed my recomendation is to try to get hav from Europe. You will introduce new genetic line which is extremely good for breed in general. Ancestors of Roki came from all over the Europe - France, Netherlands, Sweden, Hungary, Germany, Switzerland... I know that some breeders are selling their puppies to Americans and Canadians.
> Do all to protect little Maddie! good luck and many kisses to little girl!


It's really not that hard to find a good Hav in the U.S... You just have to do your homework, and LISTEN TO GOOD ADVICE. It is certainly easier to get a good Hav in the U.S. than it is to import a dog that you can't meet ahead of time from Europe. (though there certainly are knowledgable breeders who develop contacts with and import puppies from good European breeders specifically for the purpose of broadening their gene pool)

As far as neutering is concerned, obviously there is a difference in opinion between U.S. vets and European vets, based on what you are saying. There are certainly pros and cons to both approaches, but the biggest issue, and I think the reason most U.S. vets want earlier spays and neuters is to prevent unwanted puppies. We have a HUGE problem with stray, surrendered and abandoned dogs in this country, largely because people buy them on a whim and toss them out as quickly. Irresponsible owners let their young females in heat have access to males, intentionally or otherwise, and there are even MORE unwanted puppies.

Neutering male dogs prevents some behavioral and health problems, and spaying females also greatly reduces the likelihood of several serious health problems. IMO, WHEN to neuter is a matter for debate, and should be worked out with your breeder. WHETHER to neuter? Unless the dog is CLEARLY a breeding candidate, they should be neutered at some point, (WITHOUT being allowed to reproduce first!) whether it be 6 months or 18 months.


----------



## jacqui

Suzi,

I would like to praise you for making the right decision. It sounds like it was a difficult one for you but be patient. Like others have said, meet other breeders, go to shows, decide what direction you want to take as a breeder and go slow.

It is all for making the breed stronger, right?


----------



## rokipiki

Yes, you are right. Abandoned dogs, especially purebred ones are not such a problem in my country. We also mostly live in appartements and that eliminates the problem of unwanted or uncontrolled breeding. I am alwas sad when I realize that to some people dogs are merchandise, way to earn money!


----------



## SOPHIES-MOM

Most people on this forum don't join until they either already have their puppy or they've already chosen it. After reading all this, Sophie's breeder is not the perfect breeder since she only shows locally and has no champions, I'm sure. She does do testing, and I couldn't love Sophie more if she came from the greatest show dogs. Since she only sells as pets, that makes her a backyard breeder, I guess. At least she only has two litters a year. 
My point is that all this wonderful advice about breeders comes too late for most people.


----------



## The Laughing Magpie

The advice really does not come late. It is that we have become a nation of wanting it now so often we take short cuts. I did not choose Havanese (I feel in love with the breed) Yogi is a rescue, so I knew ahead that down the line there might be health issues or behavioral issues (I thought when I saw him all matted and dirty he was a Lhasa Mix) since my last two dogs were 'mill type' rescues so I know what it could cost in the future. That being said when I got my second Hav I did a lot of home work. Found a Breeder that did health testing has Champions and could tell me where some of her bred by champions are. Also we got an older now 3 dog that had all health testing and I signed a contract to keep up the eye cert. and of course if there are any problems down the line I will advise. This forum is to support everyone who has a Havanese no matter where he/she came from. This forum as far as I know does not support back yard Breeders or 'Mill type" Breeders. Not only has Suzi stated over and over her intentions to make her own rules for 'saving the breed' she has disapointed many of us. This forum is here to offer advice if ask for and support each other. You can change what went before but, you can make for sure it doesn't happen in the future.
Ropiki: Where I live in the US and it is not real big town we destroy about 900 dogs a month many very young.


----------



## Suzi

Cailleach said:


> Suzi if you really do love the breed then please do not create a situation where you well be creating more unwanted pet quality pups. People who truly love this breed know that dogs fit to be bred must be the best of the best and breeding iffy dogs in hopes they that might be show quality is not helpful to the breed. Retirement years are not best spent by breeding our breed in hopes of making money for a retirement fund selling dogs. These days potential buyers want/demand a lifetime guarantee on the dogs they purchase plus breeder support.
> 
> People who know what they are doing and have experience will certainly ensure the breed doesn't go extinct. The last thing this breed needs is novices with dreams of ribbons and trophies breeding inferior dogs. A good handler titling a dog is still getting points but with dogs that don't belong in the breeding arena, can be done over years and I do mean years. Nobody looking for quality dogs is going to be impressed with a slow finishing dog no matter how many shows it's shown in nor by who, may as well do it by yourself, way cheaper.
> 
> Ask yourself this...
> 
> What type of lifetime guarantee can you offer to puppy buyers at retirement age. As a novice, what support have you to offer? Explain to us what your goals are because it is really starting to look like you are setting yourself up as a novice breeder who has lofty goals but in reality should actually try taking your dogs into the show world, since that's what you are interested in and reality might give you a rude awakening. Seriously go this route first, Havs do make wonderful pets but there's no reason to breed in fear they will go extinct.


 My first goal is to take Zoey into the show ring and yes I have herd it can be a rude awaking. I have joined a club and have been corresponding with a few nice breeders who are welcoming me to come introduce myself at a show this month. I have no idea if I am going to breed her or not. I was trying to make a point to Karen when she said only a selective few dogs are worthy to breed. I was trying to say I had read any good handler can bring a dog to a championship. 
Correct me if I am wrong is it not true that only a select few receive excellent on the Hip Joint conformation. And if that test is done at age two how would anyone know tell then if you have a dog that is worthy of breeding. And if only a select few get that score will breeders breed two dogs that receive good. I was told not to breed two dogs who have a fair score. Would the goal then be to become a breeder who's dogs receive a excellent on the hip test. 
and if a person was to become a breeder that could take years and years, and are you saying that I am to old to become a breeder? Because if I was to decide to breed Havanese all my hard work could be lost because I would be to old to know for sure what was happening with my dogs?
All the hard work takes a lot of money and from what I have learned their is little to no profit breeding Havanese. If you are going to get into it it has to be for the love of the breed.
Yes I do have a lot to learn, and maybe I am to old.


----------



## krandall

SOPHIES-MOM said:


> Most people on this forum don't join until they either already have their puppy or they've already chosen it. After reading all this, Sophie's breeder is not the perfect breeder since she only shows locally and has no champions, I'm sure. She does do testing, and I couldn't love Sophie more if she came from the greatest show dogs. Since she only sells as pets, that makes her a backyard breeder, I guess. At least she only has two litters a year.
> My point is that all this wonderful advice about breeders comes too late for most people.


here ARE people who take their time, do their research and get it right the first time... I was one of these, but I was very, very careful... some people would probably consider the lengths I went to (flying an experienced trainer down with me to "approve" my breeder and pup before I bought him:biggrin1 a bit on the anal side, but I don't regret it in the least.

But as Robbie said, many people come here with their first Havs, having already purchased them from a not-the-best source. We don't hold it against them! What we DO hope is that people will learn from what they read here and not make the same mistakes the second time around. As much to save THEMSELVES from heartbreak as for any other reason, since most of them end up as neutered pets.

MOST important, and the real problem with this thread, people have to realize that if they are going to ignore all good advice and ADD to the problems in the breed by producing even more poorly bred puppies, they can't expect folks here to agree that it's an OK thing to do.


----------



## The Laughing Magpie

WOW SUZI! With your on going questions to help with your future plans and disregard of out feelings regarding breeding issues could you make us feel anymore USED!


----------



## Cailleach

Suzi said:


> My first goal is to take Zoey into the show ring and yes I have herd it can be a rude awaking. I have joined a club and have been corresponding with a few nice breeders who are welcoming me to come introduce myself at a show this month. I have no idea if I am going to breed her or not. I was trying to make a point to Karen when she said only a selective few dogs are worthy to breed. I was trying to say I had read any good handler can bring a dog to a championship.
> Correct me if I am wrong is it not true that only a select few receive excellent on the Hip Joint conformation. And if that test is done at age two how would anyone know tell then if you have a dog that is worthy of breeding. And if only a select few get that score will breeders breed two dogs that receive good. I was told not to breed two dogs who have a fair score. Would the goal then be to become a breeder who's dogs receive a excellent on the hip test.
> and if a person was to become a breeder that could take years and years, and are you saying that I am to old to become a breeder? Because if I was to decide to breed Havanese all my hard work could be lost because I would be to old to know for sure what was happening with my dogs?
> All the hard work takes a lot of money and from what I have learned their is little to no profit breeding Havanese. If you are going to get into it it has to be for the love of the breed.
> Yes I do have a lot to learn, and maybe I am to old.


When I got my Havs I had no thought at all about becoming a breeder. I've had very few chances to acquire a dog breed of my choice because the majority of dogs I have had although purebreds have been rescues or gifts. My first show dog was when I was a teen, a Poodle, the showing was just for fun and he was never used for stud that a lady who purchased him gave him to me because she couldn't house train him. I had 2 Shelties a male and a female who were show dogs in the 1990's but never bred them although the male did sire some litters when other breeders requested his services.

Now about the age thing...this was something that worried me when I bought my bitch, as I'm no spring chicken myself. I was really pleased with my male from a certain very experienced breeder and had my eye on the dog for a long while that I bought last year. I lucked out with getting the boy because there was nobody on the waiting list for a male. I think because I did so many things with my boy it was easier for me to be accepted to purchase the female as she was retained for breeding by her breeder. I still have no plans of becoming a breeder but I did want a really good show dog and most importantly another very well bred healthy dog.

I have a co own with the breeder and by contract "our" dog will likely be bred in the future for one litter. When I bought her there was a guarantee that she would have a CH in front of her name and two months, and two long weekends of shows, later she did. Her entire litter are show champions. She just turned two yesterday and will be getting a thorough health evaluation before she will be approved for breeding. If that goes well and she does get bred I have piece of mind because the breeder is younger than I and the resulting pups will come with her lifetime guarantee, her reputation, and the pups resulting are already spoken for by people on the waiting list. Perhaps you could find a similar situation for yourself, not saying it's easy to get approved but if you contact very reputable breeders and let them know you want to show and have interest in breeding and place yourself on a waiting list you might get the dog of your dreams. Breeders do take preference for show homes quite often. Meanwhile joining clubs and attending shows to learn all that you can is a great idea. I don't want to discourage your keen interest in the breed and do want to encourage you continue learning everything you can and speaking with experienced breeders about the ups and downs of becoming a good breeder so you know what to expect.


----------



## Suzi

The Laughing Magpie said:


> You have rights you signed away your right to decide whether to spay or not. You signed a contract that says you promise you will spay your pet. If you did not sign I am willing to bet the breeder would not have let you buy a dog from her. You have stated over and over you think Maddie is show quality and you want puppies. How do you expect to be a responsible breeder if you can't even honor a contract on your first dog? Many breeders have first dogs they never even showed...they fell in love with the breed. Also good breeders do their home work and build a good foundation. This is what honest people do to be successful. Takeing your dog to one show does not make it a champion...you generally go many shows and today you will be competing against professional handlers. If you have never shown you need to learn, that means classes for both you and your dog. Breeding comes down the road and you need to build relationships with other breeders and learn about all aspects of breeding. Also it take money!!!! It is expensive hobby. If you don't build a good foundation and take the steps necessary to be a responsible breeder, you will be nothing more then a backyard breeder. Right now in our local paper is a BB with an add for Havanese puppies $600 . I am pretty sure the rescue I put up on the forum was from this breeder and the previous add was 3 mostly blacks. Why do I think this breeder? Because they all have the same bad bite among other things. You chose Maddie honor your contract and be responsible get her spayed, you know its not health that is driving you, whats worse is everyone on this forum has repeatedly heard you talk about breeding. You signed a contract that says they can take back your dog if you breech the contract, don't risk it. Enjoy you Maddie her puppy day are going to pass you by with this foolishness. All our dogs are stars and Best in Show at home.


 I have waited a few days to calm down. I have been having a hard time with some of the statements that have been made during this post.
Yes originally when we bought Maddie I was interested in having a litter of puppys. I went to the extent of soaping her down to have her viewed . I was told by two reputable breeders on this forum that she was not a good candidate for show because she had a tail that is to low and her foot is turned out. I had decided at that time not to breed her.
I was also told because her parents were not health tested she should not be breed. 
One thing that still bothers me is that people state because of her health issues that is another reason. My posts were all mixed up . I had posted how much is too much itching? she had very dry skin . She had Coccidia . Those are the only two things I know for sure was the matter with her. Then I start getting messages that she could have SA . I am going to have the test done because it really bothers me. Her foot bothers me because I steped on her on time and I am worried I caused it.
I took her into the doctor and we decided it would be good to do all those tests at one time.
Because Maddies hair has not growen back at a very fast rate and see seems to be loosing her baby teeth slower than most and because she is small I have been having a hard time thinking about spaying her at this time.
I would like to see her mature to her full size before we spay.
I do not have a good relationship with the breeder because I wrote them and told them they should join this group and learn more about breeding their dogs.Sorry to say they were very insulted and said they are going to take it to court if I do not spay on Feb 11. 
In my heart I do feel she is going to surprise us all I think when she grows into herself she will have a beautiful coat of hair , and that the SA thing is just a scare. 
She no longer itches and her skin is not dry. And she does not limp.
Another issue that may need to be cleared up is that I had told Maddies breeder that I would like a litter of puppys that was before I knew about all the health testing . After I found out I was even hoping I could get her breeders to do the right thing and have their dogs tested.
I am sorry if some of you feel I have insulted you that was never my intent. All I wanted to find out was if we had any rights .


----------



## The Laughing Magpie

Suzi, I don't think I could be more clear about your rights. It was YOUR decision. YOU signed a contract. YOU then took Maddie home.

The point you do not get is Maddie was sold to you as a pet home, not a show home. YOU signed a contract saying YOU agreeded to spay her. YOU gave your word. YOU made a commitment.

Your continued insistance that Maddie will fool us all, has nothing to do with reality. This is about your character and willingness to honor your commitment. Because YOU now feel its all wrong and don't want to do it does not make you right. Some of us have Ethics.

I for one will never agree BB breeding is ok or breeding dogs for the sake of being cute puppies is ok. There are just. too many being thrown away today. 
Frankly that breaks my heart.


----------



## pjewel

I think part of the problem is, so many people here have seen the underbelly of breeding without a well thought out and conscientious plan. So many dogs, this breed and every other, become disposable. Their lives are sacrificed for someone's desire to breed them. They pay a terrible price for our choices. So much of what we do here, in addition to loving all our babies, is to support those who work so hard to save the unwanted, unloved and often mistreated little creatures whose only crime was to be born.

It's a sensitive subject and one that is not meant to hurt you, but rather to educate you and anyone else who might be contemplating doing it. I understand the temptation to create other cute little havanese because you think yours is special, but it's not reason enough to do it unless you plan to (and can afford to) make sure they have the best genetic chance of being healthy and to be responsible for those little souls for the rest of their lives. It's daunting, when you think about it.

The other issue is the contract you signed and the terms you agreed to when you bought Maggie. Tempted as you are to change the rules after the game has started, you can't. A contract is binding on both parties and rightfully so. I think you have to deal with the emotional side of this and understand where we're all coming from.

One final thought on the subject. Suggesting to a breeder that they're doing everything wrong (even if the belief is that they are) is not likely to endear you to them. You put them in a position of being challenged, and they're on the defensive. They have every right to hold you to your contract.

I hope you understand that nobody was attacking you here. They were going out of their way to give you good advice and after awhile they got the feeling that you weren't hearing anything they had to say.


----------



## baileyandenzo

I just want to thank all of the truly knowledgable and caring people on this forum. Although one person may not care to listen to what you all have to say, there are others who really appreciate everything that you do.


----------



## juliav

Most questions have been asked and answered many times on this thread, so I want to comment on the one that has not been asked. Specifically can an average dog finish with a big time handler? Absolutely and it has been a fact across the breeds. I've seen it in poodles, havanese and shepherds. I specifically remember an episode when one of our forum breeders didn't have her dog compete in confirmation in one of the two day shows because a havanese entered was with a well know handler and she knew ahead of time that that dog would win period. Apparently the judges also favor certain well know handlers. Guess what, the dog went on to win that day. Also, it is not enough to finish the dog. I've heard it said that if one shows long enough, most dogs can be finished. I would also look at how long it took a dog to get his/her title. Not all dogs that are finished should be bred.


----------



## Narwyn

Suzi said:


> I was trying to say I had read any good handler can bring a dog to a championship.


That doesn't make it a quality dog.

And actually, a dog who is SO substantially better than its competition can be difficult to finish, too, simply because "if it looks different it must be wrong"!

Some judges play dirty rotten politics, sure. However, many a professional handler can groom, train, and present a dog better than many a owner/handler. _Why else would anyone pay them?_ Instead of learning, the o/h hides behind excuses - politics, bad judges, anything but them or their dog.

Many owner-handlers or breeder-owner-handlers can also play with the big boys, because they have taken the time to learn, and now groom, train, and show their dogs like it is their job, too.

You, independent of any judge or title, have to know the true quality of your dog. Too many people are 'kennel blind' and can't see the faults their dogs might have, unfortunately; you need to learn from others, but you can't rely too heavily on the opinions of others, either. Good breeders have vision like that, at the health tests and champions to back it up.


----------



## Suzi

pjewel said:


> I think part of the problem is, so many people here have seen the underbelly of breeding without a well thought out and conscientious plan. So many dogs, this breed and every other, become disposable. Their lives are sacrificed for someone's desire to breed them. They pay a terrible price for our choices. So much of what we do here, in addition to loving all our babies, is to support those who work so hard to save the unwanted, unloved and often mistreated little creatures whose only crime was to be born.
> 
> It's a sensitive subject and one that is not meant to hurt you, but rather to educate you and anyone else who might be contemplating doing it. I understand the temptation to create other cute little havanese because you think yours is special, but it's not reason enough to do it unless you plan to (and can afford to) make sure they have the best genetic chance of being healthy and to be responsible for those little souls for the rest of their lives. It's daunting, when you think about it.
> 
> The other issue is the contract you signed and the terms you agreed to when you bought Maggie. Tempted as you are to change the rules after the game has started, you can't. A contract is binding on both parties and rightfully so. I think you have to deal with the emotional side of this and understand where we're all coming from.
> 
> One final thought on the subject. Suggesting to a breeder that they're doing everything wrong (even if the belief is that they are) is not likely to endear you to them. You put them in a position of being challenged, and they're on the defensive. They have every right to hold you to your contract.
> 
> I hope you understand that nobody was attacking you here. They were going out of their way to give you good advice and after awhile they got the feeling that you weren't hearing anything they had to say.


 I hear what you say and thank you for putting it so nicely. The written word can sometimes get confused and miss understood. I apologized to Maddies breeder for like you said putting them on the defense. I got a email back saying that they did not have time last night to write but we could possibly work things out. Like I have tryed to say I feel I would like to wait to spay her.
I was confused about the contract I did think it said show potential it was not in-tell after I posted this trend that I realized I had miss read it the box was right next to the pet and I have dyslexia it can be a problem for me. 
I am going to take it up with my vet and tell her my concerns. I do not feel it would be unethical of me if my breeder agrees to wait


----------



## Suzi

baileyandenzo said:


> I just want to thank all of the truly knowledgable and caring people on this forum. Although one person may not care to listen to what you all have to say, there are others who really appreciate everything that you do.


 See what I mean by the written word. It can hurt . I felt I was listening.


----------



## Kathie

Suzi, if your vet feels it is better to wait and do the spay later when the tests are needed why don't you see if he/she can write a note to the breeder on your behalf?


----------



## Suzi

juliav said:


> Most questions have been asked and answered many times on this thread, so I want to comment on the one that has not been asked. Specifically can an average dog finish with a big time handler? Absolutely and it has been a fact across the breeds. I've seen it in poodles, havanese and shepherds. I specifically remember an episode when one of our forum breeders didn't have her dog compete in confirmation in one of the two day shows because a havanese entered was with a well know handler and she knew ahead of time that that dog would win period. Apparently the judges also favor certain well know handlers. Guess what, the dog went on to win that day. Also, it is not enough to finish the dog. I've heard it said that if one shows long enough, most dogs can be finished. I would also look at how long it took a dog to get his/her title. Not all dogs that are finished should be bred.


 That was my point exactly. And I was not saying I was going to hire a handler.


----------



## Suzi

Cailleach said:


> When I got my Havs I had no thought at all about becoming a breeder. I've had very few chances to acquire a dog breed of my choice because the majority of dogs I have had although purebreds have been rescues or gifts. My first show dog was when I was a teen, a Poodle, the showing was just for fun and he was never used for stud that a lady who purchased him gave him to me because she couldn't house train him. I had 2 Shelties a male and a female who were show dogs in the 1990's but never bred them although the male did sire some litters when other breeders requested his services.
> 
> Now about the age thing...this was something that worried me when I bought my bitch, as I'm no spring chicken myself. I was really pleased with my male from a certain very experienced breeder and had my eye on the dog for a long while that I bought last year. I lucked out with getting the boy because there was nobody on the waiting list for a male. I think because I did so many things with my boy it was easier for me to be accepted to purchase the female as she was retained for breeding by her breeder. I still have no plans of becoming a breeder but I did want a really good show dog and most importantly another very well bred healthy dog.
> 
> I have a co own with the breeder and by contract "our" dog will likely be bred in the future for one litter. When I bought her there was a guarantee that she would have a CH in front of her name and two months, and two long weekends of shows, later she did. Her entire litter are show champions. She just turned two yesterday and will be getting a thorough health evaluation before she will be approved for breeding. If that goes well and she does get bred I have piece of mind because the breeder is younger than I and the resulting pups will come with her lifetime guarantee, her reputation, and the pups resulting are already spoken for by people on the waiting list. Perhaps you could find a similar situation for yourself, not saying it's easy to get approved but if you contact very reputable breeders and let them know you want to show and have interest in breeding and place yourself on a waiting list you might get the dog of your dreams. Breeders do take preference for show homes quite often. Meanwhile joining clubs and attending shows to learn all that you can is a great idea. I don't want to discourage your keen interest in the breed and do want to encourage you continue learning everything you can and speaking with experienced breeders about the ups and downs of becoming a good breeder so you know what to expect.


 Thank you, that is exactly what I want to do


----------



## lfung5

I didn't read this entire thread. Suzie, I was going to buy a pup from a breeder, until she told me she was going to spay the pup before I got her. That meant she was going to spay her at 10 weeks old! I read all these negative things about spaying too early. The breeder would not work with me, nor would she return my deposit! I promised I would spay at 6 months, but she would not flex at all. I ended up stopping payment on my check. She was so mad at me, but I didn't want to spay until at least 6 month. If you're not wanting to spay because of concerns, why not get a note from you vet and promise to spay at 8 month. It's probably best to spay before she goes into heat though. I always felt 6 months was too early, but definitely under a year old is best. Bella was spay at 7 months.


----------



## bellapico

Hi All,

I don't have a havanese as I am still researching the breeder etc, I just wanted to say that I have great respect for the people on this forum and I agree that Suzi could have done things differently with both puppies. 

I understand that people are frustrated with her decisions but as someone with severe dyslexia I know that communicating in writting can be confusing and a challenge, sometimes we mean onething and it comes out differently than we intended. I just believe that people should be gentle with each other, you never know what mental state a person is when they read your response. As someone that works for a mental health hotline I know how fragile peoples mental state can be. I genuinely believe Suze may have been misunderstood based on her miscommunication. I think we all get the point about responsible breeding and I hope Suze does the right thing by her pups ( I think she will). 

I hope I have not offended anyone. Anyhoos that's my two cents.


----------



## SOPHIES-MOM

I don't understand why a breeder would be so adament about the exact date 
a puppy must be spayed. My breeder said that havaneses mature later than most other breeds, and to wait to at least six months, better at eight. I won't spay Sophie until she gets permanent teeth, and at five months, she hasn't lost one tooth. But I would not have signed a contract that said spay by a date or lose your puppy.


----------



## baileyandenzo

Suzi said:


> See what I mean by the written word. It can hurt . I felt I was listening.


I'm sorry Suzi! I shouldn't have said something mean like that. I didn't mean to hurt you.


----------



## pjewel

bellapico said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I don't have a havanese as I am still researching the breeder etc, I just wanted to say that I have great respect for the people on this forum and I agree that Suzi could have done things differently with both puppies.
> 
> I understand that people are frustrated with her decisions but as someone with severe dyslexia I know that communicating in writting can be confusing and a challenge, sometimes we mean onething and it comes out differently than we intended. I just believe that people should be gentle with each other, you never know what mental state a person is when they read your response. As someone that works for a mental health hotline I know how fragile peoples mental state can be. I genuinely believe Suze may have been misunderstood based on her miscommunication. I think we all get the point about responsible breeding and I hope Suze does the right thing by her pups ( I think she will).
> 
> I hope I have not offended anyone. Anyhoos that's my two cents.


Thank you for bringing up another important factor in this and any other discussion online. It is a flat medium and easy to misinterpret under the best of circumstances.


----------



## Thumper

bellapico said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I don't have a havanese as I am still researching the breeder etc, I just wanted to say that I have great respect for the people on this forum and I agree that Suzi could have done things differently with both puppies.
> 
> I understand that people are frustrated with her decisions but as someone with severe dyslexia I know that communicating in writting can be confusing and a challenge, sometimes we mean onething and it comes out differently than we intended. I just believe that people should be gentle with each other, you never know what mental state a person is when they read your response. As someone that works for a mental health hotline I know how fragile peoples mental state can be. I genuinely believe Suze may have been misunderstood based on her miscommunication. I think we all get the point about responsible breeding and I hope Suze does the right thing by her pups ( I think she will).
> 
> I hope I have not offended anyone. Anyhoos that's my two cents.


It happens to all of us at one point,I know I am an awful written communicator and have been interpreted the wrong way MANY of times, and your right, we never know what emotional place they are coming from.

Thanks for your post, I think Suzy will do the right thing where the pups are concerned.



> I don't understand why a breeder would be so adament about the exact date
> a puppy must be spayed. My breeder said that havaneses mature later than most other breeds, and to wait to at least six months, better at eight. I won't spay Sophie until she gets permanent teeth, and at five months, she hasn't lost one tooth. But I would not have signed a contract that said spay by a date or lose your puppy.


I wouldnt have like that 'lose your puppy' line either, kind of crass..

I think mostly it is to prevent unwanted litters/pregnancy while they are still going to the vet frequently getting all of their puppy shots and whatnot. I chose to wait til' after the first heat but breeding had never even crossed my mind, it was just to give her the benefit of natural hormones to strengthen her bones and organs..hormones are huge in development... it has been compared to doing a hysterectomy on a 12 year old girl, sure..she wont' get pregnant, but the hysterectomy will change how she grows and develops.

There are breeders who do encourage their buyers to wait, especially those with high incident of bone disorders in their breed, arthritis, etc.., I don't want to start an argument about it,I respect the decisions to spay young, but I also am adamant about preventing any 'accidents', I think if people choose to wait, they need to be uber vigilant about keeping the boys at away..

Kara


----------



## lfung5

bellapico said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I don't have a havanese as I am still researching the breeder etc, I just wanted to say that I have great respect for the people on this forum and I agree that Suzi could have done things differently with both puppies.
> 
> I understand that people are frustrated with her decisions but as someone with severe dyslexia I know that communicating in writting can be confusing and a challenge, sometimes we mean onething and it comes out differently than we intended. I just believe that people should be gentle with each other, you never know what mental state a person is when they read your response. As someone that works for a mental health hotline I know how fragile peoples mental state can be. I genuinely believe Suze may have been misunderstood based on her miscommunication. I think we all get the point about responsible breeding and I hope Suze does the right thing by her pups ( I think she will).
> 
> I hope I have not offended anyone. Anyhoos that's my two cents.


I agree. I think sometimes we are too quick to judge.


----------



## TrishK

Thumper said:


> I think mostly it is to prevent unwanted litters/pregnancy while they are still going to the vet frequently getting all of their puppy shots and whatnot. I chose to wait til' after the first heat but breeding had never even crossed my mind, it was just to give her the benefit of natural hormones to strengthen her bones and organs..hormones are huge in development... it has been compared to doing a hysterectomy on a 12 year old girl, sure..she wont' get pregnant, but the hysterectomy will change how she grows and develops.
> 
> Kara


I have a question here...when a dog is spayed, do they remove the ovaries as well? This would cause cessation of hormone development and throw the dog into surgical menopause. When human women get hysterectomies, they often only take the uterus and cervix leaving the ovaries in place unless they are unhealthy and also need to come out. If the ovaries are left in place then there is no aftereffect from the surgery with regard to hormones. The patient still cycles hormonally each month, except that without the uterus there is no blood flow, so unless the woman has PMS she will not know where she is within her cycle but the cycle still exists each month. So going back to dogs, if they take out the ovaries then yes, it will throw the dog into surgical menopause also, but if they are left in then the only difference is the not being able to impregnate her and no monthly mess. So, does anyone know for sure?


----------



## krandall

TrishK said:


> I have a question here...when a dog is spayed, do they remove the ovaries as well? This would cause cessation of hormone development and throw the dog into surgical menopause. When human women get hysterectomies, they often only take the uterus and cervix leaving the ovaries in place unless they are unhealthy and also need to come out. If the ovaries are left in place then there is no aftereffect from the surgery with regard to hormones. The patient still cycles hormonally each month, except that without the uterus there is no blood flow, so unless the woman has PMS she will not know where she is within her cycle but the cycle still exists each month. So going back to dogs, if they take out the ovaries then yes, it will throw the dog into surgical menopause also, but if they are left in then the only difference is the not being able to impregnate her and no monthly mess. So, does anyone know for sure?


Yes, they remove the ovaries too. You don't WANT a bitch to cycle... You'll still male dogs jumping all over her and peeing all over your property. In fact, I recently talked to a vet who said that a new trend is to ONLY remove the ovaries. It's a much less invasive surgery, the recovery is much easier, and all indications is that it provides just as much protection against both mammary cancer and pyo.

Also, remember that except for the few people who wait until after their female puppy has had her first cycle, (or later) when the surgery is often harder on them, the young female has not yet experienced hormones. It is much more a case of being in arrested sexual development than it is like going through surgical menopause.


----------



## TrishK

Thanks for the info Karen. It was something I always wondered and yes, it makes sense too, arrested development vs surgical menopause. But that brings about the next question of whether it does any harm to remove those hormones before maturity. I mean, I'm sure they serve some purpose to the body as a whole other than just straightforward breeding value ??? I have zero knowledge on this topic and any pet I or my family have ever had has been spayed and neutered, except the guinea pigs, but they are both boys, so I'm really in the dark on the whole topic.


----------



## jenisny

I am a novice Havanese owner as I have only had my dog a couple of months. But I researched this breed for over a year and was in conversations with my breeder for 7 months. The sad truth is that many people do not spend the time researching their breed for a pet or researching a breeder. It's an expensive dog, and people look for ways to get it cheaper. Many people looked at me as if I were nuts to pay as much as I did, and I didn't pay near what some other breeders charge.

The problem is that I don't think a large portion of BYB consider themselves to be so. They think they have a good full-bred dog who would make cute puppies. or they think the protocols are just to create a monopoly and are politics to get higher prices. They might think it would be fun for their kids to see puppies being born. Many of them don't believe themselves to be irresponsible. This is probably way some of the warnings and accusations were so strong here. We have all seen too many sad cases of rescue puppies.

My breeder knows my puppy's grandparents' grandparents and then some. She has at least five healthy generations back in this clean line. She waits until they are 4 years old to breed, although many breeders wait until they are two. Her reason is that some genetic diseases do not show for a while, and she wants to be sure. She matches her dogs to individual owners based on their personality. Once a man came to buy a dog from her after already having a one year old, and she refused because she could tell that his existing dog would develop cataracts, and she felt he needed to work out all the kinks out with that dog before he added another. He couldn't tell, and got a second puppy elsewhere. A year passed by, and he came back to report that his dog had cataracts. He wasn't sure what he was going to do with the dog. She does a ton of research on immunizations and health. She has been doing this for 19 years. She has had healthy Havanese puppies live to be as old as 19. If there is any doubt that a puppy might have any health issue at all, she does not breed.

These are the types of things that a responsible breeder does and needs to know. They need to study a lot about the breed. It requires modifications to your home and many supplies. I think there is little money to be made. It means taking back any unwanted puppies if an owner changes their mind. It means placing any dogs that may be born with health issues or covering costs under a guarantee. It's overwhelming for me to think about. It's a huge time commitment for a long period of time.

Suzi, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you want to do the right thing for your dogs. But it seems to me that you need to learn a LOT more about what is required to breed. And do yourself a favor by not going in the backwards way. Work with a reputable breeder to get into the business if that is what you want to do.

I'd say the same with showing. I know nothing about showing a dog, but it seems like a lot of work. 

You have two precious dogs. One is a pet by contract for sure. Show for fun if you want and enjoy them. If you feel waiting to have her spayed is best for her health, talk to your vet and breeder about those reasons and do some research. If you think Zoey is good breeding stock, talk to some other breeders in the field who can help you determine so. Just because Zoey may have good health test results though doesn't mean her puppies will. You need to ensure you have a clean line for several generations. Some things skip a generation or two. That could be difficult because you said the breeder didn't do all of the health tests, right? If there is any doubt, it would probably be wise just to have fun showing her, and if you want to breed, go in the forward way with another breeder as a mentor and co-owner.


----------



## jenisny

As the mother of two boys, the sister of three brothers and the owner of all male dogs in my lifetime, I think we could use a little less testosterone around my house.  But that's just me.


----------



## rdanielle

It *DOES* harm to spay/neuter before maturity as the hormones tell the growth plates when to stop growing.

Here's a link with resources sited. Scroll halfway down to where you see the mother and 3 pups eating a raw meaty bone. Hope this helps. 
http://www.chocolatesilkdogs.com/natural_rearing


----------



## Suzi

krandall said:


> Yes, they remove the ovaries too. You don't WANT a bitch to cycle... You'll still male dogs jumping all over her and peeing all over your property. In fact, I recently talked to a vet who said that a new trend is to ONLY remove the ovaries. It's a much less invasive surgery, the recovery is much easier, and all indications is that it provides just as much protection against both mammary cancer and pyo.
> 
> Also, remember that except for the few people who wait until after their female puppy has had her first cycle, (or later) when the surgery is often harder on them, the young female has not yet experienced hormones. It is much more a case of being in arrested sexual development than it is like going through surgical menopause.


 How do you know that only a few people wait? where do you get you statistics? I am just curries not doubting you. I have no idea!
what about bone structure have you or anyone studied our breed? It seems to me all the studys have been on large breeds. I have read a lot about athletic dogs and from what I interpret is that yes their are benefits to waiting.


----------



## Suzi

jenisny said:


> I am a novice Havanese owner as I have only had my dog a couple of months. But I researched this breed for over a year and was in conversations with my breeder for 7 months. The sad truth is that many people do not spend the time researching their breed for a pet or researching a breeder. It's an expensive dog, and people look for ways to get it cheaper. Many people looked at me as if I were nuts to pay as much as I did, and I didn't pay near what some other breeders charge.
> 
> The problem is that I don't think a large portion of BYB consider themselves to be so. They think they have a good full-bred dog who would make cute puppies. or they think the protocols are just to create a monopoly and are politics to get higher prices. They might think it would be fun for their kids to see puppies being born. Many of them don't believe themselves to be irresponsible. This is probably way some of the warnings and accusations were so strong here. We have all seen too many sad cases of rescue puppies.
> 
> My breeder knows my puppy's grandparents' grandparents and then some. She has at least five healthy generations back in this clean line. She waits until they are 4 years old to breed, although many breeders wait until they are two. Her reason is that some genetic diseases do not show for a while, and she wants to be sure. She matches her dogs to individual owners based on their personality. Once a man came to buy a dog from her after already having a one year old, and she refused because she could tell that his existing dog would develop cataracts, and she felt he needed to work out all the kinks out with that dog before he added another. He couldn't tell, and got a second puppy elsewhere. A year passed by, and he came back to report that his dog had cataracts. He wasn't sure what he was going to do with the dog. She does a ton of research on immunizations and health. She has been doing this for 19 years. She has had healthy Havanese puppies live to be as old as 19. If there is any doubt that a puppy might have any health issue at all, she does not breed.
> 
> These are the types of things that a responsible breeder does and needs to know. They need to study a lot about the breed. It requires modifications to your home and many supplies. I think there is little money to be made. It means taking back any unwanted puppies if an owner changes their mind. It means placing any dogs that may be born with health issues or covering costs under a guarantee. It's overwhelming for me to think about. It's a huge time commitment for a long period of time.
> 
> Suzi, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you want to do the right thing for your dogs. But it seems to me that you need to learn a LOT more about what is required to breed. And do yourself a favor by not going in the backwards way. Work with a reputable breeder to get into the business if that is what you want to do.
> 
> I'd say the same with showing. I know nothing about showing a dog, but it seems like a lot of work.
> 
> You have two precious dogs. One is a pet by contract for sure. Show for fun if you want and enjoy them. If you feel waiting to have her spayed is best for her health, talk to your vet and breeder about those reasons and do some research. If you think Zoey is good breeding stock, talk to some other breeders in the field who can help you determine so. Just because Zoey may have good health test results though doesn't mean her puppies will. You need to ensure you have a clean line for several generations. Some things skip a generation or two. That could be difficult because you said the breeder didn't do all of the health tests, right? If there is any doubt, it would probably be wise just to have fun showing her, and if you want to breed, go in the forward way with another breeder as a mentor and co-owner.


 I did go with a reputable breeder I do not know where you got the information that she did not do the tests right. And yes the young 2 1/2 year old from Hungery was lacking his re gestured hip test I did however talk with the vet that gave him a good on his score . she just does not show her dogs. Like I said any good handler can bring a dog to a championship. If you all would like to know the pedigree of Zoey I would be happy to give the information. Other wise please stop amusing I have just bought another dog from a back yard breeder.


----------



## krandall

TrishK said:


> Thanks for the info Karen. It was something I always wondered and yes, it makes sense too, arrested development vs surgical menopause. But that brings about the next question of whether it does any harm to remove those hormones before maturity. I mean, I'm sure they serve some purpose to the body as a whole other than just straightforward breeding value ??? I have zero knowledge on this topic and any pet I or my family have ever had has been spayed and neutered, except the guinea pigs, but they are both boys, so I'm really in the dark on the whole topic.


There are pros and cons, and people who have very strong opinions on both sides of the fence. My take is that this is a MUCH bigger issue for large dogs. Neutered too early, a large breed dog tends to grow taller and lanky, without the muscle mass to support their huge skeleton. So large breed dog owners are often cautioned to delay neutering until the dog is at least a year old. I have never heard any real scientific studies about this issue in small breeds... people just seem to extrapolate from the studies that have been done in large breeds, which I'm not convinced is a valid approach. The people who seem to be the most concerned about this issue seem to be the SERIOUS agility people, (as opposed to those who do it for fun, taking a few lessons with their dog) and for good reason. Serious agility dogs need to be real athletes, with solid bone and strong muscles to protect their joints for as long as possible.

The problems with delayed neutering, (beyond the obvious ones of mess and possible unwanted pregnancy) especially in females, has been more extensively studied. We know that allowing a female dog to go through her first heat cycle puts her at significantly greater risk of mammary cancer later in life. Put off indefinitely, an unbred female is at SERIOUS risk of Pyo, a potentially deadly infection of the uterus.

For males, since the serious medical problem related to late neutering is testicular cancer, I'm not sure that it makes THAT much difference as long as the dog is neutered before it develops any signs of cancer. (since the testes are removed in any case) That said, there are behavioral reasons for not delaying neutering of male dogs. (again, assuming that they are not either a large breed dog or a medium or larger SERIOUS agility dog) While even neutered dogs of both sexes can develop marking behaviors, this is a MUCH bigger problem with intact males. And it's a HUGE problem with small breed intact males... which is why you see so many surrendered males in shelters who need to wear "belly bands" in the house to prevent marking.

So, that's what I can tell you about the pros and cons. People have to weigh these issues for themselves and then make an informed decision on what is most important to them. The bottom line, however, is that if your feelings about neutering differ from what your breeder has in their general contract, that you hammer out these details BEFORE signing the contract. I suspect that few reputable breeders would object to later (as long as it's not indefinite!!!) neutering if they are approached politely and with valid reasons.

I think the breeder that someone mentioned who insists on neutering little tiny puppies at 10 weeks is ridiculous. This CAN'T be in the best interests of the puppy, and is something I wouldn't agree to. I'd buy my puppy elsewhere. I know that this is a practice in some shelters, especially in the south, where there are SO many homeless dogs, and neutering doesn't seem like a priority for many people. The shelters decide that no animal will leave the shelter un-neutered. I can see their point. But that's not at all the same situation as purchasing a well bred dog from a private breeder. If the breeder doesn't have some level of trust that their buyer will fulfill their end of the bargain, they probably shouldn't be selling a dog to them.


----------



## jenisny

Suzi,

I did not say you bought your dog from a backyard breeder. You said your breeder did not do all the health tests, and you tried to get them to and they were defensive. If I am incorrect or read the information wrongly, I am sorry. All I am saying is that there is a lot of time involved if you want to start a breeding program. 

The other thing I am saying is that just because you get a puppy from a reputable breeder and the dog is a good pet and even if it shows well and gets good scores on its health testing, it does not mean that the dog should be bred without knowing if it comes from a clean heath line that spans back a few generations and has other characteristics that make it a good match. It takes a lot of work to acquire this knowledge to know what dogs are good to breed and which ones aren't. I don't have it. If you want to breed, and you think Zoey is a good candidate, I advised you to talk to other breeders about her pedigree and health background to help determine this. I advised you to go about it the forward vs. backward way of working with a breeder to mentor you. 

I admit I am not an expert in these matters, but this is my advice, and I believe that you do want to do the right thing by your dogs.


----------



## Suzi

jenisny said:


> Suzi,
> 
> I did not say you bought your dog from a backyard breeder. You said your breeder did not do all the health tests, and you tried to get them to and they were defensive. If I am incorrect or read the information wrongly, I am sorry. All I am saying is that there is a lot of time involved if you want to start a breeding program.
> 
> The other thing I am saying is that just because you get a puppy from a reputable breeder and the dog is a good pet and even if it shows well and gets good scores on its health testing, it does not mean that the dog should be bred without knowing if it comes from a clean heath line that spans back a few generations and has other characteristics that make it a good match. It takes a lot of work to acquire this knowledge to know what dogs are good to breed and which ones aren't. I don't have it. If you want to breed, and you think Zoey is a good candidate, I advised you to talk to other breeders about her pedigree and health background to help determine this. I advised you to go about it the forward vs. backward way of working with a breeder to mentor you.
> 
> I admit I am not an expert in these matters, but this is my advice, and I believe that you do want to do the right thing by your dogs.


 Hi, The problem with this trend is that folks are getting Maddie mixed up with Zoey. Zoey really had nothing to do with what I wanted to find out. 
However I am getting a lot of good advice and I appreciate it.
I will do some resurch as to how many generations of all the testing has been done. I do not know if I can get to much information on the sire because he is from Hungery. Some of the tests are not done over in Europe.
I do know Zoeys Mother Miss Daisy came from a breeder in Yacama Wa And I am going to meet That Breeder this weekend at a AKC show here in Portland She might be a bit busy showing but I at least hope to introduce my self and hang out for the day. This same Breeder helped my Breeder with finding her Male Stud dog over in Hungery. Zoeys father.


----------



## TrishK

Thanks again Karen. That helps explain a lot. Looking up various websites I've found that they tend to be skewed in one direction or the other so your post was very informative.


----------



## Narwyn

krandall said:


> There are pros and cons, and people who have very strong opinions on both sides of the fence.


Great post on both sides of the issue, Karen.

I will add in I have a very good friend who breeds Italian Greyhounds. She keeps them all until 13 weeks old, as she has them spayed/neutered at 12 weeks. She has been doing this for many years with never an issue. She holds off for serious performance dogs or for any especially little puppies (under 5 lbs).

Her theory... better a slightly taller dog, than a homeless dog because they didn't get around to neutering him before he started marking, or more homeless dogs because she got out in heat before they got her spayed. And like any responsible breeder, she screens very carefully to avoid people like this anyway!

Early spay/neuter is not appropriate for every breed, but, I do think it can have its place.


----------



## Thumper

There is so much 'opinion' on the internet about this, you really have to sift through tons of worthless articles and uneducated on the matter opinion to find some meaningful studies both ways....and there are CONS to waiting, too...

Some breed clubs and organizations just seem to have more interest in this that others, and there are a few hav breeders that recommend a 9 month spay, closer to heat, 
..
Heat was HELL, let me tell you. There were more than a few times I asked myself why the hell I'd done this, It was like a full time job plus overtime taking care of her and I needed a vacation afterwards, Unlike a breeder who could see the dog was in heat and put them in a room with a boy and then walla! The pregnancy cycle starts, with no-breeding heat, you just have to get through the messy cycle. Gucci would look at me and cry for me to clean her off, several times a day, she didn't like the mess down there and she didn't feel good at ALL

And the spay, was SOOOOO much harder for her than anything I've read on here about early spay. I had to call twice to get her decent enough pain meds to get her comfortable and even took her back in to make sure everything was alright, she was MISERABLE in pain for probably a week afterwards..

I just have to keep an eye on her mammary glands and hope that she lives a long, healthy, happy life, there is no way of knowing if it did any good until she's much older anyways and facing the aging process as to how she'll fair through it.

All we can do is love them and hope for the best.. I can't say I'd make the same decision if I had a boy who was marking, or if I had other dogs in the house, it would've been much more difficult. 

I did enjoy her having the nicer coat for a bit longer, the hormones do make a difference for the coat, much less matting and longer and silkier. 

Kara


----------



## krandall

Narwyn said:


> Great post on both sides of the issue, Karen.
> 
> I will add in I have a very good friend who breeds Italian Greyhounds. She keeps them all until 13 weeks old, as she has them spayed/neutered at 12 weeks. She has been doing this for many years with never an issue. She holds off for serious performance dogs or for any especially little puppies (under 5 lbs).
> 
> Her theory... better a slightly taller dog, than a homeless dog because they didn't get around to neutering him before he started marking, or more homeless dogs because she got out in heat before they got her spayed. And like any responsible breeder, she screens very carefully to avoid people like this anyway!
> 
> Early spay/neuter is not appropriate for every breed, but, I do think it can have its place.


But if the contract includes a clause saying the dog must be returned to the breeder if the owner can't keep it, there would STILL be no homeless dogs. (except by breach of contract... but my guess is that most people who tire of the dog would take the easy way out and just call the breeder to come collect it)


----------



## LilyMyLove

I love Gucci's new valentiney pic! I have some red bows for Lillers I'll have to put her in...

In my experience, Lily's first heat was pretty seamless. I barely even noticed it because she only had a little bleeding down there, I thought she had scraped herself. She cleaned herself up the whole time then she would just move on to the next thing like no big deal Thats pretty Lily though-oblivious god love her. 

When she got home from her spay she was exhausted and drugged up acting for two days (which was scary, but she slept most of the time) then bounced up ready for action. 

Contrary to your experience Kara, I don't think it helped with matting, at least I hoped that didnt help with the matting, because I can't imagine how bad it would be then, her hair is sooo cottony now!

Meghan


----------



## Narwyn

krandall said:


> But if the contract includes a clause saying the dog must be returned to the breeder if the owner can't keep it, there would STILL be no homeless dogs. (except by breach of contract... but my guess is that most people who tire of the dog would take the easy way out and just call the breeder to come collect it)


To be PERFECTLY clear her contract 110% has the return clause and it's certainly been used. Any responsible breeder has this.

As you noted, though, some people take the easy way out, and although breeders try their hardest for these people to never get a puppy to begin with, things happen.

HOWEVER, I say "homeless" to mean they are not with "their people" anymore. Even if they don't end up in a shelter, it's just not a good thing for a dog to bounce around, as you know.


----------



## galaxie

I didn't sift through all 8 pages, but I feel that I need to add my two cents:

You signed a contract. A LEGALLY BINDING CONTRACT. Have Maddie spayed by 6 months OR speak to your breeder and ask her to have an addendum to the contract drawn up if you really want Maddie to be spayed after her first heat.

Personally, I have had all three of my Havs spayed/neutered between 6-7 months of age with absolutely NO complications. My Maddie was lethargic when we picked her up, but the next day she was back to her normal self. Roscoe as a sleep boy the first night, but the next day, happy, spunky puppy. Stella was trying to jump all over the place and give everyone at the vet's office kisses BEFORE I even picked her up, this was < 5 hours after her spay! She had absolutely no downtime and I had to literally force her not to run, jump and play.

I have read a lot of research and personally feel very strongly about spaying before the first heat. Remember, what you read on the internet is NOT research, it is opinion. You need to find STUDIES. Just because a friend of a friend of a friend's aunt's best friend (or whatever) had a bad experience with something, does not mean that you will. You also must remember that correlation does not equal causation.


----------

