# Molly's First Vet Appt.



## lulubella (Mar 25, 2008)

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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

<hugs> I think the first step would be to call the breeder. Calm down, write what you want to get across down (this part always helps me) and talk about things. Is the condition luxating patellas?


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## jillnors2 (Apr 12, 2007)

Call the breeder and look up to see if her Parent's Patellas were tested.

Do you want to do performance sports with your dog? The Patellas could be a problem.


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

Susan, I'm sooo sorry! I bet your heart just plummeted right into your stomach when the vet told you all of this.

I'm also sure you felt pretty guilty and please don't because the excitement of getting a Havanese is pretty darn blinding.

That's too bad about your frustrations with the breeder, she does seem extremely responsible from the website. I know that websites really don't tell us everything.

I do know that good breeders stand behind and up for the health of their pups, and so I hope she is willing to pay for the teeth cleaning, but I don't know what you should expect about the patella problem. Hug Hug Hug to you! I know there are a lot of people here on the forum that have experience with this.

Actually I brought Posh to the vet yesterday for her heartworm test and for some tick killer and he checked her teeth, but I forgot to have him check her knees. This is my first toy breed, so it's a whole new world....I do know that her parents were tested, and I think she may have been too...

Are you starting to wonder if the "crooked tooth" was really the reason she wanted to place her? 

Also, couldn't they clean her teeth or at least some of them (like one side) while she is out for the spay surgery? I paid $140 to have Posh spayed, and he pulled a couple teeth at the same time. I think it would be cheaper if you visited Posh and me in MN! My SIL got her yorkie's terribly rotted teeth cleaned for less than $100. This included the full blood panel. Granted my vet has an awkward bedside manner...but he's a great guy, just completely socially retarded!


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Susan,
Couldn't they do the teeth cleaning at the same time as the spay? That way she'd only have to be put under one time.
I'd definitely talk to your breeder (after you've calmed down a bit) and find out all you can about Molly, especally her parents and her age. 
The patellas might or might not become an issue. My parent's dog had a patella that occassionally slipped but it only caused a little hip-hop in his gait now and then and it poppped right back in. It didn't slow him down one bit nor did it cause him any pain so they left it alone and he was happy and healthy for 15 years. 
Yeast in the ears can be pretty common and can occur from something as simple as bathing if they get water in their ears. It's easily treated. I totally agree that your breeder should have told you about it. It would seem that if they are loaded with yeast they would have smelled bad. It's a pretty telltale odor. 
Don't be mad at yourself. You did do your research. All any of us can do is take someone at their word. 
Definitely contact your breeder though and make a list of things to discuss like Amanda suggested. If Molly has luxating patellas and needs surgery, they should help out with that if they knew about it.
Dirty teeth and yeast ears aside, Molly is a precious girl. 
Hugs to you.


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## casperkeep (May 16, 2007)

I am soo sorry to hear this. I hope if and when you contact the breeder she will help answer your questions. She is still sooo cute no matter what!!!!! Hugs to you!!!


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

Susan,
They should absolutely be able to clean her teeth while she is under for the spay. Speak with your vet about that. I'm sorry you are having to deal with these issues!
Dawna


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## mintchip (Apr 19, 2007)

lulubella said:


> Amy--you always make me giggle! Thank you!
> 
> I am definitely doubting her reasons for giving her up. There's no way she could have been a show dog with those knees.
> 
> ...


Write it all down first and then decide about calling or emailing.


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## casperkeep (May 16, 2007)

I would call her once you have calmed down and just tell her what your vet said. I would hope she would make this right with you.


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

Susan,
Many times the vet will give a prescription for antibiotic to be taken for the 10 - 14 days prior to the spay to take care of any bacterial issues that could be going on with the teeth. My vet feels comfortable doing it this way and prefers it to putting them under anethesia twice.
Dawna


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Great about getting info together. Here is the write up on Wiki: I would say you might want to get the knee xrayed to find out if it is two though.



> Diagnosis is made through palpation of the knee. X-rays are necessary in some cases. The luxating patella often causes no or very slight symptoms. There may be intermittent limping in the rear leg. Osteoarthritis can develop secondarily.
> 
> There are four diagnostic grades of patellar luxation[4], each more severe than the previous:
> 
> ...


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## casperkeep (May 16, 2007)

Poor Molly!!! I hope all works out for you. I know how excited you were about all of this and to have this happen really stinks.


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## jillnors2 (Apr 12, 2007)

Luxating Patellas can be hereditary, correct?


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

Susan, I sorry to hear all of the bad news you got, especially all at once. I'm sure you were shocked and felt physically ill as the vet was telling you all of this (I did when I had my first appointment with Tess and I knew there may be problems since she was a rescue and there hadn't been any promises.) 

I agree with everything said so far...
.... I also have had my dog's teeth cleaned while they were having other surgeries done. The vet felt the risk of infection was less than the risk posed by putting under anethesia twice. (Especially since they could have antibiotics). It definitely helps with the cost.
....Tess also has luxating patella on both of her knees. The vet told me that her dog has had that problem for 15 years and it's never slowed her dog down. As long as the knee goes back into place, and doesn't seem to be in any pain, there's no need for surgery. The dogs naturally know how to put it back into place (you'll see them kind of shaking their leg). Now that Tess is getting regular exercise, her knees seem to be getting stronger. 

Not that it helps right now, but after a few days of being really upset I was able to get some perspective and realize the problems she had didn't necessarily mean a life of problems/expenses and if it wasn't this, it very well could be something else.

No matter how much research, questioning you did, there are really never any guarantees - this didn't happen because of something you did or didn't do. Don't beat yourself up.

I would definitely talk to the breeder - I would have to write down all of my questions/concerns. That's the only way I'd be able to push hard enough to get straight answers.

Good luck and hang in there!:hug:


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## lulubella (Mar 25, 2008)

Well, I spoke to the breeder.

She was surprised about the patella and yeast. Molly was actually her partner's dog--she sold her for the partner. Shd didn't know where the yeast would have come from. None of her dogs have ever had it. I told her she definitely had it when we picked her up b/c that night she was scratching like crazy.

The patella, she was surprised about, but didn't really say much.

The plaque she said she should have told me about b/c the reason she has it is b/c of her crooked teeth. They make her chew funny, so the plaque builds up quickly? Is that right? Sounds funny to me. She swears she's one year.

Anyway, she now wants me to call her partner and discuss everything with her. She was very nice about it. She asked me if I didn't want her anymore, and of course I could never give her back. She's part of our family now.

Here I go. . .I'm calling the partner--wish me luck!


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Oh Susan, :hug: what a bummer! I don't know anything about your breeder, but from the little I read here it all sounds fishy. Hope you'll get some answers soon and especially some $$$ from the breeder or her partner. This is unacceptable.
Also, I don't see how bacteria from the mouth can 'fly' into the lower abdomen. In humans we operate on the sterile areas first, cover those up and then move to the more contaminated areas. Your Vet could do the spay first, cover everything up and then take care of her teeth, I don't see a problem there.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Susan,

I know how upset you must be, but I'm sure something can be worked out with the breeder. As for the teeth, Milo has plaque build-up also and I was told they would clean his teeth when he was put under for the neutering. I know the vet is your friend, but his price seems awfully high, even for here. When I asked for Milo I was quoted a much lower price than that. 

From the way Molly was running around the other day, she didn't look as if she was in any pain and she didn't appear to be favoring either side. When you speak to the breeder's partner, if you haven't already I would say you don't want to give her up but you want them to make this right on some level. I'm sure they don't want her back and to have to go through all this again, so I think they'd make some accommodation if they thought that was the alternative.

Give Miss Molly a kiss for me and I'm hoping for a speedy and comfortable resolution for you.


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## Tritia (Nov 17, 2007)

My heart is just racing reading this thread. I'm so sorry you're going through this. I'm saying a prayer and hoping for the best with all of this. Hang in there!


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Hi Susan,
These things tend to happen even when lots of research is done!..i guess.. its unfortunate, for sure..
I'm surprised the breeder would not have taken Molly to the vet before handing her over to you? Perhaps getting the spay and teeth cleaning out of the way before hand would have made sense? I would deffinatly ask the breeder to pay the teeth cleaning bill as she told you she had forgotten to mention it.. hmmmmmm

Ryan


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## lulubella (Mar 25, 2008)

Thank you all so much. I have definitely calmed down now, but I'm still upset.

I spoke to the partner, and explained all the problems to her. She said that the plaque was due to a bad bite and that b/c the teeth don't sit right, they don't clean the plaque of with each chew. I know that my Jack Russell had an overbite and her teeth would be covered in plaque, so I could see that. BUT, I told her (and she agreed) that the teeth should have been cleaned before we got her. She told me to get an estimate--she didn't say whether or not she'd cover it all, though. She definitely should!!

As for her patellas, she said she didn't know about that and that it could be a temporary thing. Does that sound right?

And her ears, she didn't see anything before she left her, but I said she definitely had it when we got her b/c she was scratching like crazy that night. Whatever--that I can deal with. The teeth are really my biggest concern. 

Should I be really concerned about her patellas or not? I'm not doing agility with her or anything, and it didn't seem to bother her at all when the vet checked them. I don't want to get myself all worked up about something that won't affect her.

Ugh--I'm just so exhausted. I feel like I did when my twins were newborn. That delirious, exhausted, emotional mess!! Then, to boot, my oldest woke up last night with a stomach virus, so ANOTHER night with no sleep! We spent the night on the couch with a bowl--yuck! Now my younger daughter is saying her stomach hurts, and mine's not feeling so hot either! What a week!


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Oh Susan, you certainly are having a helluva time. I wish I could twitch my nose and make it better. Having everyone sick in the house doesn't help matters any and sleep deprivation only adds to the tension.

I really hope the breeder's partner makes this right for you but I'd be hard pressed to ever get another dog from them since I mistrust people who leave gaping holes in their stories. I can't speak to the patella issue but I'm sure many others can and a few have already. The teeth can be taken care of and the ears might have happened because they got them wet, maybe even when they bathed her.

I'm glad you're calming down because the last thing you need is more stress today. I'm sending relaxing and healing vibes to your house . . . for everybody. If you need anything, holler.


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Susan,

Big :hug: to you, I am sorry you are going through this....sigh. The whole situation sounds a little fishy to me and I really do think that the breeder should have had her teeth cleaned before she came to your home. Do they have the parent's hips/patella test results to share with you and are they on the OFA site? What about her registration papers???


I also believe that the vet should spay and clean her teeth at the same time. That's what my vet did when my standard poodle Romeo was neutered at 18 months. There is absolutely no reason to put you 7.5 lb dog under twice. It's risky and expensive. If he won't do it, I would find another vet.

We are here for you,


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## havalilly (Apr 23, 2008)

I'm new. But I from what I gather, you were promised a show dog with a few misplaced teeth. I would NOT be happy about the Patellas. And I do have toy dog and a Grade 2 patella problem at the age of 1 is not to be made light of. And I'm sorry, but I don't believe a Show Breeder, especially, if they have been in the breed a long time (??) would not notice this.

I have a Yorkie and am looking for a Hav now. And will only go to Breeders referred by a person I know or meet on this forum.



> why did she sell Molly for her 'partner'


I don't get this either? I don't like when a dog goes from one person to another to sell.....


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I would be ticked off big time-----but I am glad to read you are getting it worked out.:hug:


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## trueblue (Jan 22, 2008)

Julie said:


> I would be ticked off big time-----but I am glad to read you are getting it worked out.:hug:


Me too


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Susan,

I'm so sorry to hear about all this!  I would be livid and SAD, why did she sell Molly for her 'partner' (as in business of 'life'?) I'm sorry, but not disclosing those things in unacceptable. She's a 'breeder' and I would think she would be able to atleast spot the overbite/dental problems, and would've looked over Molly.

I am not sure about the patellas, I don't know much about that but I'm sure others will pipe in with useful information.

And even then, an overbite isn't a good excuse not to take care of their teeth. I use a really GREAT gel by Petz life. I HIGHLY recommend it.

http://www.petzlife.com/

And I also bought a little dental pick from Walgreens and it has a light on it, I pick off any tarter I see with that. Gucci has gotten really very cooperative and lets me do it because she knows she gets extra special treats afterwards. It only takes a few minutes each week. But to say a dog must be older than 1 because of such dental probs? Yikes.

I've also heard that some vets like to put small dogs under separately for dental cleaning. I think it has more to do with keeping them sedated for a long(er) time than bacterial infection, but I do think when you have to keep them sedated for more than one procedure, it can be more risk to a small dog weighing only 7 lbs, you say?

If you aren't comfortable doing both at the same time, then schedule them separately.

Hugs to you and Molly!
Kara


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

havalilly said:


> I'm new. But I from what I gather, you were promised a show dog with a few misplaced teeth. I would NOT be happy about the Patellas. And I do have toy dog and a Grade 2 patella problem at the age of 1 is not to be made light of. And I'm sorry, but I don't believe a Show Breeder, especially, if they have been in the breed a long time (??) would not notice this.
> 
> I have a Yorkie and am looking for a Hav now. And will only go to Breeders referred by a person I know or meet on this forum.
> 
> I don't get this either? I don't like when a dog goes from one person to another to sell.....


Ditto...

It seems odd that an excuse for plaque build up would be crooked teeth or incorrect bite or whatever.

My breeder was very honest that she only got around to brushing Posh's teeth once a week, but Posh's teeth looked awesome. I have been brushing about three-five times a week and giving her "flossies" and the vet was really impressed with how good her teeth looked yesterday.

Oh Susan. I just so feel for you. You and your family already love this little girl so much and having sick kiddies and feeling like crap yourself is the worst.

Yeah, I say disappointed would be a huge understatement...you have done and are doing all the right things. Take a nap!


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Kara,

Thanks for that link. I'm going to get that for Milo too. How do you use it. It says you can spray it and you don't have to brush?


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Susan, I just wanted to give you a hug. The teeth and the yeast can be fixed and you can use the petzlife and never have a problem again. The luxating patellas, I have never heard of as being temporary. But I believe dogs with LP can live normal lives. It is just hard to have your bubble burst with this news. :hug:


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Susan, I'm sorry this has happened to you. I was just told that Shelby has luxating patellas in both hind legs. You would never know it because she is always running and jumping. The vet said to just watch her to see if anything changes. Shelby is 1-1/2 yrs old. 

As for the teeth, I agree that they should be able to do it at the same time. Since you are on LI, I would check with North Shore Animal League. They have a low cost spay/neuter program available. My daughter had her 2 dogs done there and everything was fine. It cost her $175 total for both (not each). You could also ask them about doing her teeth.

Good luck. Molly looks like such a sweet girl and I am sure she has totally stolen your heart. I agree that I would contact the breeder and tell her what the vet said. Maybe she will help you out with the vet bills.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

pjewel said:


> Kara,
> 
> Thanks for that link. I'm going to get that for Milo too. How do you use it. It says you can spray it and you don't have to brush?


I have both the gel and spray, but I use the gel more often only because I keep the spray at the office, but its the same 'stuff', just different application methods. I started 2X a day for a few weeks and are down to once before bed. I can attest that i have seen a GREAT improvement in her breath, teeth, and her vet said her teeth looked "perfect" and "he wished all his patients took such great care"  yay. It was recommended from here, actually. Love it. If she does get tartar, it is always on the same back 2 molars. but its easy enough to take off. As long as I stay on top of it.

Kara


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Kara,

Does it tell you how to apply it? Sounds wonderful and the other dogs could benefit from it as well.


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## Diana (Oct 23, 2007)

Oh Susan I am so sorry you are going through this. I can understand why you would be so upset.

I know it always seems when it rains, it pours. It doesn't help that you are sleep deprived and have a sick household!

Hopefully this will all be worked out to your satisfaction and out of your way so you can just focus on all you wanted- loving and enjoying Molly.


I hope you and your family feel well soon! We had that bug last week and it wasn't fun, to say the least!


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Geri - I use one of those fingertip tooth brushes to put Petzlife gel on. But Kara, I'm so glad to find out that you start with twice a day. The instructions say once every 4-5 days which is doing nothing for my Pom. Of course MeMe and Buddy have beautiful teeth, so that's plenty for them. I'll up the frequency and wait for my miracle. If I have any fingers left when I'm done...he's kind of a nasty old codger now at 15. I know, I'm always bashing him but he really is a grump. Although floored me today - he was playing chase with my oldest. Go figure. He only did that as a puppy chasing the cat! ound:


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## Poornima (Jun 29, 2007)

Susan, I am sorry to hear about your predicament. I do hope that your get a speedy ans satisfactory resolution. Molly is such a sweet girl. I do hope that she doesn't suffer any pain and discomfort.


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## havalilly (Apr 23, 2008)

What do the breeders think? I see several breeders on this forum who have remained silent on this topic. What do you do if one of your dogs that you sold has luxating Patellas (assume for arguments sake, this is confrimed by 2 vets)? I assume the buyer payed full price for this dog and if it's in long island, the pup was sure to be expensive. Would you breeders out there respond?

What would you do if a pup or adult you placed had these sort of problems??


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

The vet said the same thing about Henry's knees . . . something something, let's watch it, no need to do surgery . . .etc etc

Sweet Molly - see what you can do about her teeth without putting her under . . .
chews, your brushing , etc.

feel better, and by the way what did your contract say about health results from your own vet?


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## havalilly (Apr 23, 2008)

I understand that other people on this forum have had vet's say similar things about Patellas (although I question what grade 1 or 2, etc) , but my question to the Luxating patella owners is if their dogs were touted as "Show dogs" and if the patellas were diagnosed at the young age of 1?? Just a question.


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

Is the breeder on this forum ? ?
How old is Molly? is that the right price for the dog? or is that a puppy price?

Please give Molly kisses for me and hope your entire family feels better.
xoxoxxo


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Hi Susan!
So, was Molly to be a show prospect? But had the jaw/teeth issue, so she never was able to make it to the ring? You should get these breeders to atleast pay for the spay and teeth cleaning! (You would think she would have been spayed with other dogs around??) 

Ryan


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

Susan, I'm so sorry this is happening and putting a damper on your special time getting to know Molly.

I think the vet sounds very expensive, but I live in Nebraska, so that's like comparing apples and oranges. I'm guessing if they have reservations about doing both of the procedures at the same time, it's due to the amount of time they think it will take. They might not want to keep her under that long.

I recently adopted a rescue Maltese that came with a whole list of surprise health problems. He too was a year old and needed a professional teeth cleaning along with some tooth removal, so it's not unheard of at that age.

The yeast in the ears (also something Winston had) could be from something as simple as water in the ear from a bath, as was previously mentioned.

Can LP's be temporary? I've never heard that before. As I see it, the bottom line is you bought her as a "Show" dog from a "breeder", someone who's business it is to know about these things.
As a breeder she should be really concerned about health issues in her dogs. Did you have to sign a spay contract? If not, and LP's are hereditary, I would think you could ask for part of the spay cost, since she certainly wouldn't want her breeding.
She was aware of the teeth situation and chose not to have it taken care of herself, so I think she should either pay towards your vet costs, or reimburse you directly. 

I wish you were closer so I could help out some. It sure does seem like when it rains it pours! Take it easy so you don't get sick yourself.

Beverly


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## havalilly (Apr 23, 2008)

Personally, I think the biggest problems are the teeth and Patella



> I recently adopted a rescue Maltese that came with a whole list of surprise health problems. He too was a year old and needed a professional teeth cleaning along with some tooth removal, so it's not unheard of at that age.


Yes, and that is a rescue and health problems are unpredictable. We go to "good" breeders and spend $2000 dollars for a dog to try and prevent these things.

I'd be intersted to know if the father and mother of this dog Patella's were tested because they should not have been bred with luxating Patella's. I go way back in Yorkies who are known for Patella problems.


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

Regarding the luxating patella's: My vet told me the most important things with to keep Tess' weight under control Too much weight causes stress on the knees.

I had a thought today (not something that happens every day!)... As you're working with the breeder to try and recover some costs....you know you won't return Molly but they don't necessarily know that. You could use the threat of returning her when negotiating.


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## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

I think I agree with Jill. Was there a written guarantee? I am not loving all that the breeder has said--such as "it was my partner's dog"--but I am wondering if you threatened to return the dog, if you could get back some of the costs. 

I am sorry you are going through all this. I think this is why the breeders on this forum want us to check out the health testing ourselves. Some not so good breeders have learned how to answer some of our tough questions without being truthful.

I say this while admitting our first dog came from one of those not good breeders--hubby bought him to surprise me after I had been researching awhile. And so far, we have a healthy dog who is very sneaky--as those at the East Bay party can attest.


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## Alexa (Jun 17, 2007)

I am so sorry this turned out this way. Take a deep breath and focus on that adorable dog that loves you and your kids!!

A lot of things just sound fishy and I would really press the breeder to come up with the papers NOW, so you can do a little research and make sure there isn't more inconsistencies on that end, too. When I registered Marley online, my breeder had already pre-registered the litter and I could see his line, so you should be able to look something up. 

Money isn't everything, but YES, for $2000 you should be able to get a top of the line, health tested dog from someone that cares and doesn't withhold any information. 

That said, since you decided you love her as part of your family (and how could you not love that cutie), don't be shy and demand that the breeder or the partner, or whoever charged you what you paid, pays a VERY healthy chunk towards the unexpected medical costs and then some. If she cares in the least about her reputation she will WANT to make things right. 

Alexa


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I think you are getting a lot of advice, I can't imagine how overwhelmed you feel but one thing I was thinking, I would definitely check into pet health insurance right away. While I really hope her patella's dont have future problems, a good friend just went thru it and they both ended up going out and her bills were very high.

Just some more thoughts...

Hugs,
Amanda


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

lulubella said:


> You all have come to my rescue once again, and for that I'm so grateful! I really thought I hit a brick wall today, but after reading all of your comments and suggestions, I feel so much better.
> 
> I still don't know if I should ask for some money back besides having her pay for her teeth cleaning. After all, I didn't get a "healthy" dog.


Most definitely!

But, you shouldn't even have to 'ask', the breeder should 'OFFER' to help you with these expenses at this point, IMO..the breeder should pay for the WHOLE teeth cleaning procedure, since technically, it happened on her *watch*. And I just don't believe a dog being evaluated for 'show' didn't have her patellas checked by 1, It sounds like you have a great vet and he/she gave Molly a thorough examination. At 1, my vet did the 'thorough' eval of Gucci, blood tests, exam, the whole 9 yards. When was the last time the breeder (or partner) had Molly/Pixie looked at? And why prevaricate and/or evasive about the dam and sire?

$2000 is on the mid-higher end of the average. Typically between $1400-2500.

Havalilly, you are asking all the right questions! I wonder the same things. The ubiquitous seem to have vanished.

Kara

PS. Lisa, the instructions on the website say to start 1-2X a day and then to once a day I couldnt' find ANY instructions on the bottle. They must've changed that. I'm curious if it reverses damage like the pictures on the website? Geri, I use my finger because I have to be like a ninja to get it on her teeth, she sees the bottle and goes into 'catch me' mode, Plus, I can feel which teeth I get it on. i alternate, top teeth one night, then bottom the next. But with the spray, it is easier to get both.

1_100% natural and safe ingredients to remove plaque, tartar and kill bacteria. You'll notice the difference with a brighter smile, fresher breath, and a healthier pet within weeks.
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_


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## jillnors2 (Apr 12, 2007)

You know, my sister bought a Champion 12 month old Old English Sheepdog last year because his bite 'went off'.

Let me tell you something. This dog was in PRISTINE condition when she picked him up at La Guardia. He was $1800 ...the breeder let her pay in 3 payments and still didn't cash the checks for months and months. The breeder had "Drake" neutered 3 weeks prior to my sister getting him, his teeth were also cleaned at this time. He was given a beautiful groom, coat scissored to 4" (took the breeder all day to do this). Breeder was in constant contact and did not cash my sister's checks for 4 months, making sure my sister was happy and the "big guy" was happy. 
The vet and her groomer say he's the nicest Old English they have ever seen (temperment and beauty).

I'm not trying to make you feel bad but want you to see how other breeders handle things. Now I don't know if my sister's breeder was just exceptional or what but it was a match made in Heaven and my sister refers EVERYONE to this breeder as she is just wonderful.

Keep us posted and hang in there!! I also wonder what the breeders on this forum think, come out come out wherever you are


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Susan, I really think your Breeder needs to step up. $2000 is on the higher end or at least medium-high end. For that money one would expect a healthy, health tested ancestors, clean, well socialized pup or young adult with breeders who stand behind their dogs. I feel so bad for you that you have to go through all this. I still find it fishy that no one mentioned anything to you about her teeth, ears, patellas, etc. that's just not right.
About LP disappearing: Pablo had one minimally subluxating patella as a very young pup. I made him exercise on a regular basis to strengthen his muscles and the tendon that keeps the patella in place and by the age of 14 weeks the Vet couldn't feel the subluxation anymore. However, if a dog at >1 year has luxating (Pablo had sub-luxating) patellas grade TWO, I highly doubt that this just miraculously disappears. Whoever told you that is either unaware or tries to hide the truth, just my 2 cents.


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## lulubella (Mar 25, 2008)

*Please see my post "It's All Good"*

Hi everyone--please see my new post "It's All Good"

The woman we got Molly from has definitely stepped up to the plate!


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

lulubella said:


> Hi everyone--please see my new post "It's All Good"
> 
> The woman we got Molly from has definitely stepped up to the plate!


I'm glad I saw the other topic first. 

As for those wanting to hear from breeders, if any of them saw this topic I'm sure they wouldn't comment for a variety of reasons. First of all, every contract is different, which also means that every guarantee is different. None of us knew what those guarantees are. For all we know it could have been one small piece of paper that said "As Is". Obviously, that wouldn't bode well for the breeder, but the liability certainly wouldn't be in her court.

Susan, I'm glad you have a good relationship with her and are able to work things out between the two of you. That mutual relationship is very important.


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## havalilly (Apr 23, 2008)

> As for those wanting to hear from breeders, if any of them saw this topic I'm sure they wouldn't comment for a variety of reasons. First of all, every contract is different, which also means that every guarantee is different. None of us knew what those guarantees are. For all we know it could have been one small piece of paper that said "As Is". Obviously, that wouldn't bode well for the breeder, but the liability certainly wouldn't be in her court.


Kimberly, the simple question is, if you placed a 1 year old dog and found out it had luxating Patella's the day after it was placed, what's your and other breeder's opinions on compensation/disclosure? We're not talking about contracts, gut instinct. And my gut instinct is that since crickets are chirping, breeders may not do anything?!?!?! Not sure.

And I think it's a shame a breeder could not advise Lulabella and help her and let her know your thoughts on the seriousness of the dogs problems instead of remaining silent.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Thumperlove said:


> Most definitely!
> 
> But, you shouldn't even have to 'ask', the breeder should 'OFFER' to help you with these expenses at this point, IMO..the breeder should pay for the WHOLE teeth cleaning procedure, since technically, it happened on her *watch*. And I just don't believe a dog being evaluated for 'show' didn't have her patellas checked by 1, It sounds like you have a great vet and he/she gave Molly a thorough examination. At 1, my vet did the 'thorough' eval of Gucci, blood tests, exam, the whole 9 yards. When was the last time the breeder (or partner) had Molly/Pixie looked at? And why prevaricate and/or evasive about the dam and sire?
> 
> ...


As a breeder on this forum, I want you all to know first off, that I don't have the time to read every post on here.

The contract between two parties is just that, between them and it isn't my place to assume anything. I have no idea who this breeder is, but just because this has happened DOES NOT mean this is a bad breeder either.

I consider myself a good breeder, however, I am not good at cleaning my dogs teeth. If the plaque was on the back teeth, that is easily missed. I had a dog that had terrible plaque buildup at age 1 and while that isn't common it also wasn't a result of neglect either, which some have implied here. Just as in humans, some people have great teeth and other's don't. My 80 year old mother for example has NEVER had a cavity, me on the otherhand has nothing but fillings and caps!!!

As for the grade 1 or 2 patella, NO, it isn't visable to the eye. I sold a 2 year old male champion that had PASSED OFA patella. When the new owner took him to her vet for a check up shortly after getting him, her vet said he had a grade 1 in one leg. She didn't care, as she knew he would be ok in the end and live a long healthy life and he was not going to be bred.

Assuming this breeder is a reputable breeder, I don't believe for one minute that this Havanese was bred from two parents that had luxating patella's. Some of you are just too quick to assume the worst. It doesn't matter how much one pays for anything, things can go wrong. Since this Havanese was just 1 year old, I would bet the breeder hadn't had her patella's checked yet as she sold her because of the bad bite. Since Havanese are jumpers and love high places, it can be dangerous for them too. I tell my puppy buyers to NOT ALLOW them to jump off of anything until they are much older.

There is also a way to have the teeth cleaned without any anesthisia and it costs about $35.00. You might ask around and see if there is anyone is your area that does it. I take my dogs to a woman that comes to my local All Natural Pet Store.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

havalilly said:


> Kimberly, the simple question is, if you placed a 1 year old dog and found out it had luxating Patella's the day after it was placed, what's your and other breeder's opinions on compensation/disclosure? We're not talking about contracts, gut instinct. And my gut instinct is that since crickets are chirping, breeders may not do anything?!?!?! Not sure.


I can't answer for anyone else, but everyone who has been here over the last year knows that I stand behind my dogs. I can only speak for me. Period.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Havtahava said:


> I can't answer for anyone else, but everyone who has been here over the last year knows that I stand behind my dogs. I can only speak for me. Period.


Exactly Kimberly. I too stand behind my dogs. Lulubella did the right thing in discussing it with her breeder. When an issue arises, it can be handled in so many different ways.


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## havalilly (Apr 23, 2008)

Thank You Kathy. Finally some answers and I for one do appreciate it!!

I do know Luxating Patella's are not visible to the eye, but can you breeders feel for them like the vet does? I assumed you could and maybe this is a BAD assumption. Just trying to learn things here.

I'm not assuming the worst here, but would hope that the Breeder would at least be able to provide the dog's parents names....it seems very Lazy not to know this. I'm not saying this is a bad breeder but if you're charging $2000 for well bred dog, ummm...it's only fair to the buyer that they know the parents names at least. At least IMHO.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

havalilly said:


> Thank You Kathy. Finally some answers and I for one do appreciate it!!
> 
> I do know Luxating Patella's are not visible to the eye, but can you breeders feel for them like the vet does? I assumed you could and maybe this is a BAD assumption. Just trying to learn things here.
> 
> I'm not assuming the worst here, but would hope that the Breeder would at least be able to provide the dog's parents names....it seems very Lazy not to know this. I'm not saying this is a bad breeder but if you're charging $2000 for well bred dog, ummm...it's only fair to the buyer that they know the parents names at least. At least IMHO.


Well, again, I can ONLY speak for me. NO I am not a vet and have no idea how to know by feel. When the vet examines the patella, they are basically trying on purpose to "slip" the knee cap. I would be afraid I would do permanent damage to my dogs. That is why I trust the vets!! <grin>

This isn't something any breeder would know or do, unless of course they are a vet.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I may have misunderstood, but I thought that the breeder selling this dog wasn't the breeder _of _the dog, which could explain the mix-up in the parent's name. Officially speaking, the parents are required to be listed in the contract and would be in the AKC papers, so that is where that info could be located.

All of my dogs have their patellas checked at each vet exam, and it goes into their well-check paperwork, but no, I couldn't tell you the difference between a Grade 1 or a Grade 2. I think I'd freak out if I felt a Grade 4. (shudder) I've had knee surgery (on myself) and there is no way on earth that I'm going to purposely push out the patella on any of my dogs.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Oh funny timing, Kathy. I was writing up my reply as you were posting yours.

I'll whelp puppies, clean teeth, wash dirty butts, trim nails and pull ear hair, but I'm not pushing on knee caps. No way. It makes me cringe to think about doing it.


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## [email protected] (Apr 25, 2008)

*Claudia DeVita*

Hi All. I would like to take a moment of your time to introduce myself. I have been breeding Havanese for about six years. I breed only Champion dogs ... health tested and am very diligent and spend alot of time on my Hobby. This situation with one of my pup buyers is something that I need not go into detail about but to say Sue and I have a good relationship and we have worked out issues. The misunderstandings .. especially on this forum have much to do the the communication called the Information Highway. I did NOT charge any money for the grooming and suggesting I charged $2,000 for it actually sorta had me LOL> That was just a silly misconception. If anyone wants me to go into any kind of detail on the situation please feel free to email me privately thru my website Contact Us page. I am happy you have this forum to share all things Havanese. I work closely with the AKC, Havanese Club of America, Delaware Havanese Club as well as every pup person that either has one of mine or is looking for one. Sue and I are both sorry for any negativity or misunderstandings that have occurred. Sue and her family are lovely and have the right dog for them. She agrees. I always and will always be there for anyone who needs me and I hope this can clarify any misconceptions that may have occured. Thanks for letting me share. CLaudia DeVita ps my site represents me truly www.devitachampions.com or www.devitahavanese.com. thanks again


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Oh, I also want to add that too many vets are out to make as much money as they can. I would question why is this vet saying this dog needs to put under more then once to take care of a spay and teeth cleaning? As for the ears, again, that can be an easy miss. How many of you know before your children are screaming in pain that they have an ear infection? <grin> Dogs scratching at their ears is normal, doesn't always mean they have an infection and since dogs ear canals are so long, it isn't visiable to the eye either, unless it is a very, very bad infection.


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## havalilly (Apr 23, 2008)

Havtahava said:


> II may have misunderstood, but I thought that the breeder selling this dog wasn't the breeder of the dog, which could explain the mix-up in the parent's name. .


 Apparently, she was selling her partners dog. And there is no excuse for not being able to provide The Parents names IMO. If you're prepared to sell the dog, you should be prepared to answer questions.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Hi Claudia, Yes, you are a fantastic breeder and only have the best interest of the breed at heart, I can vouch for that.


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## havalilly (Apr 23, 2008)

Thanks for responding, that is very stand up of you Claudia and I give you credit.



> I did NOT charge any money for the grooming and suggesting I charged $2,000 for it actually sorta had me LOL


 I only heard a price of 2000 for the dog and then a request for an additional 70 to groom? Did I miss something? I didn't see any post suggesting grooming was 2000.

I think there were some mistakes made on both sides. We are only human after all. Hopefully, we have all learned somthing.

And I don't think a breeder has an obligation to respond to any post but hopefully they may want to answer questions to educate the masses and share their knowlege -as a couple have done here and it is much appreciated.


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Kathy said:


> Oh, I also want to add that too many vets are out to make as much money as they can. I would question why is this vet saying this dog needs to put under more then once to take care of a spay and teeth cleaning? As for the ears, again, that can be an easy miss. How many of you know before your children are screaming in pain that they have an ear infection? <grin> Dogs scratching at their ears is normal, doesn't always mean they have an infection and since dogs ear canals are so long, it isn't visiable to the eye either, unless it is a very, very bad infection.


I agree with this also, might get a second opinion.I would certainly think the greater risk would be anastesia ( I cant spell that, haha) twice. I put this in the other thread too.. Stogie had plaque at age one, and he has a great bite. I wouldn't worry about that at all. Its just some dogs have it and others don't.


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Hi Claudia - welcome to the forum. And guys...Claudia Rocks! She's got some fabulous dogs.


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Claudia, thank you so much for coming here and posting your side in such a wonderfully friendly and comprehensive manner. Kudos to you. After I read Kathy's, Kimberly's and now your post I learned that what seems so horrific to a 'regular' pet owner (bad teeth, ear infection, luxating patella) might just be a bad coincidence of several less problematic issues at once. I'd like to apologize if I hurt your feelings.

havalilly, all breeders here on the forum are always more than willing to help us newbies. However I don't think they have an OBLIGATION to do so. Also no one can expect breeders to read every thread and post to every question. They're here for fun as well.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I'm so happy for Susan and for the resolution of the problem that so frightened her as a new mommy to a havanese. I've met Molly as so many of you know and she's an adorable, sweet little girl. Frankly, the thought of how they test for patellas has me cringing in my seat.

I never did get the concept of putting our resident breeders on the line to answer this thread. Once again, this is a place where so many people so unselfishly help us through our fears and concerns about our furbabys. It's certainly no obligation . . . on anybody's part.

Susan, hope everyone's tummy is better and that Miss Molly is settling in nicely.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Claudia,
Welcome to the forum. I agree with Maryam that sometimes things sound worse than they are. We hear so many stories about bad breeders that sometimes we forget that there are a whole slew of wonderful breeders out there.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Welcome Claudia :wave: Being on the east coast I have not had the pleasure of meeting Claudia yet but have heard wonderful things about her. I have also seen one of her dogs in the agility ring near me and he is doing wonderful.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Claudia,

I just visited your champions site and you have some beautiful dogs there. Welcome to the forum. Normally you'll find it to be a great place for all havanese lovers, pet owners and breeders. Hope you'll continue to visit.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

trueblue said:


> Me too


Me three! We once got a "show lab" that they decided not to show. His yeast never did clear up in his ears and always smelled. I don't believe the breeder for a second. She HAD to know about these problems! I'm glad this baby got a good and caring home with you but I would do all I could to get the breeder to pay for it. I'm reading this post late and your original post has been deleted. Can you at least tell us what state the breeder is from?
Carole
xxoox

On edit, I obviously should have read thru the entire thread before commenting at all. Sorry!


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## lulubella (Mar 25, 2008)

Wow--did this whole thing get crazy!

I really just want to say that Claudia is doing all the right things to rectify this situation, and she has been nothing but wonderful to me and my family!

I was extremely emotional yesterday (sleep deprivations is not something I handle well, just ask my kids!). 

Just to clarify--the dog was $2000 and the grooming would have been $70, but Claudia very nicely paid that for me.

I never intended for Claudia to be bashed or harrassed in any way, and she knows I am so sorry for anything that may have gotten out of control. She really does have beautiful dogs, and she is a professional in every way. She invited me into her home, and the dogs are extremely well cared for. I never thought that anything was done maliciously to me or my family. We all know how it is when you get a new furbaby--we want everything to be just perfect and the slightest problem is enormous! Just like with human babies!

No matter what, I would still highly recommend Claudia b/c she has given me the most wonderful little girl that was matched perfectly with our family! 

I thank you all for your support, but I would ask that everyone respect Claudia's reputation and please do not personally attack her. So far everyone has been wonderful in welcoming her here and I appreciate that!

Susan


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Welcome to the forum. :wave:

I visited both of your sites and you have beautiful dogs.


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## havalilly (Apr 23, 2008)

Whoops....


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

I don't think Susan was airing dirty laundry at all.....she was asking for advice. 
Dawna

p.s.
The post that I was replying to here has since been deleted.


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## Judy A (Jan 13, 2007)

Welcome, Claudia.......


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## Havlady (Aug 2, 2006)

*Patellas & teeth*

I just read about the dog you got. Patellas are a TOY problem. My maltese lived with his for 15 years - occasionally one would pop out and then go back in place - so it is something she can live with. If she has pain - the surgery is about $1500 a knee. You definitely should have been told up front (as I like to call it Full Disclosure).
The teeth probably should have been cleaned - but that is normal maintenance - If she has that much tartar by a year it will be on ongoing problem. Ears - same thing. Not sure a bad bite causes tarter but I guess it could in some circumstances.
When my pups leave - patellas and hearts have been checked by my vet at least 2-3 times. You can tell bad patellas on 5 week old puppies. Patellas are generally a toy issue and I always have all my pups checked EVERY time they go into the vet. A patella can be hereditary or caused by an injury. If my pups leave me with tight patellas I can only assume anything else is an injury. My vet fills out a health form on each pup that discloses anything with the pup on the day it leaves. My owners then take the form to their vet and have the pup checked. They then sign the form and return it to me.
Just a couple of safety/disclouse checks I do.
Since I never saw the original post - I dont' know under what conditions you bought the dog - but these issues should be worked out with your breeder.
Havs are so much fun - just enjoy her! They are the best dogs!


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