# Taking new puppy everywhere for socialization, what about pottying while out?



## wencit (Jul 15, 2018)

Please forgive me if this is a stupid question, but this will be my first dog ever and I have no idea how to do this. I plan to take my new puppy with me everywhere when we first get him in order to socialize as much as possible. Because he won't have all his shots, I will be extra careful and plan to keep him in a carrier (Outward Hound PoochPouch, I think).

If he is in a carrier, how will I know if he needs to go potty? Will he whimper and give me some kind of sign? Will he soil himself while in the carrier, or is that too much like his den?

Should I take him out of the carrier every hour and have him try to go potty? Obviously I can't put him down just anywhere. I drive a minivan, so maybe I take him back to the car every hour, lay down a pee pad with some pellets on it (what I'm planning to use for my indoor potty), and see if he'll do his business? And what if he doesn't go? Put him in the car carrier and then try again in 10-15 minutes?

What do others do???

Again, sorry if this seems like such a dumb question, but I'm pretty stumped. Thanks for your help!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I took our puppy everywhere and I just took him potty every time we got out of the car, before we went into a store or a new place. There’s almost always somewhere to take him potty, although mine is particular about peeing on grass so sometimes I had to think ahead and take him in the parking lot next door with grass or whatever. I still take him with me a lot and I think he views the car as a bed or crate, he’s only had one accident in it ever and he wasn’t in a carrier. We were waiting in the car because DD had dance and it was too snowy to justify driving home and back. 

I was lucky because from a very early age our dog would grab at my feet and sort of growl and run around if he needed to poop. It was different from the usual playful puppy ankle biting that I would redirect, there was more desperation involved. He didn’t stress out about peeing, though, and he didn’t start communicating about needing to pee until around 1 year. I don’t think you can rely on him communicating, although you might get lucky. 

One time when our dog was almost a year old he started running around all crazy in Petsmart. I was so embarrassed because he was acting so weird and then all of the sudden he pooped. Then I was even MORE embarrassed that I didn’t realize what was going on! But of course they were so nice about it, and I did have a little roll of bags with me so I just cleaned it up and they sanitized the spot.


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## wencit (Jul 15, 2018)

Thanks so much for your response! I will definitely let him potty on the grass when he's had all his shots, but I guess I'm more concerned for those few weeks when he's not fully vaccinated yet. I've read a lot about not putting him down on surfaces where a dog might have peed or pooped, which is why I plan to carry him around everywhere in a little front pouch or sling. I just don't know if he's going to get restless if he needs to go to the bathroom, or if he'll go potty in his carrier.

This product is what I'm referring to (my first time linking something - hope it works).


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

Hoping Karen makes her way to this thread at some point because she has very good information on immunity provided by the first vaccinations, but I will say that from what I recall, even after just one or two rounds of the DAPV vaccine puppy is quite safe from parvo. Obviously you don't want to bring him traipsing through a field at a park or along the grass near a pet store, but parvo is spread via direct and indirect contact with the feces of an infected animal. It can live in the ground for quite some time, but bringing puppy to potty in a secluded corner in a location that isn't likely to be a common dog potty spot is just fine. 

Remember, though, taking your puppy EVERYWHERE for socialization is not necessarily a good thing. Puppy needs to learn to be away from you sooner rather than later, and accompanying you on every outing won't help that process. Additionally, that much socialization can be exhausting, and overloading puppy can be dangerous and actually cause what you mean to be good experiences to bring him unneeded stress. Also keep in mind that not everywhere is legally allowed to be dog friendly, no matter what employees may say. Any place that sells or serves open food is a no go for puppy socialization; service dogs only!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I know, i remember thinking the same thing. It’s funny because socialization and protecting them prior to vaccination are emphasized when a puppy comes home, and they sort of contradict each other. Personally I think socialization outweighs the risk of pottying in the same spot if it comes down to choosing, but I think you have to make your own judgements understanding the risks. Sophie’s point about the effectiveness of the earlier vaccines is something I wish I’d thought of when I considering these issues. 

I wouldn’t take him to potty at a dog park, and I’d look for the most inconvenient patch of grass in the parking lot instead of the one most dogs probably use, or let him wander around licking - but I wouldn’t sacrifice the socialization during that short window. 

There was a statement published by an organization on this topic at one point which emphasized the importance of socialization in spite of what seems like mixed messages to owners. I don’t remember if I read it here. I can’t remember if it was from vets or behaviorists but I’ll see if I can find it. It might have been something Dave posted for the forum. 
Our vet’s recommendation was to have him play with other dogs of families we know until his shots were complete so that we could easily ensure the dogs were healthy and vaccinated. Good excuse for play dates with family friends!


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

I have a little different take on this question. The first dog we ever had, 40 years ago, died from Parvo. The kids were young and it made a lasting impression on all of us. I would wait until the Vet gives the okay to take your dog out into the public. Havanese are naturally social. In my opinion, waiting a couple of months for the vaccinations to be complete is not going to negatively impact a Havanese socialization skills. I value safety over rushing it. In the meantime, invite friends and family (without their dogs) over for a playdate. The puppy will begin socialization in that way.

You didn't say what State you live in, but regarding potty training, take your dog outside every hour for 5 minutes at a time (weather permitting). In the beginning, your puppy will not let you know, give you a signal, when he has to go. You have to teach him, by repeated conditioning and training, where YOU want him to go. This could take a couple of months or more for your puppy to become 100% reliable. The length of time it takes will depend on YOUR training skills - consistency and dependability - and your puppy's cognitive skills. (When we got Ricky, I made every mistake in the book!) As an adult male, we take Ricky out at least every 4 hours (except at night) and he is 100% reliable. Sometimes he will let us know (like licking our hand, each dog might have different signals) but he just holds it. Ricky will even potty on command! We call it a "courtesy potty" which sometimes means lifting his leg and nothing comes out, just to make Popi happy! :grin2: There will be successes and failures along the way, but the two of you will eventually work together as a team and learning together will be so much fun!

Keep us posted on your new adventure. We are Havanese lovers here.

Ricky's Popi


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## wencit (Jul 15, 2018)

Thanks so much for all your thoughts! I really appreciate them.

I realize there's contradicting advice regarding socialization and vaccinations, but so many things I've read really emphasize socialization, socialization, socialization! I want to do my best to protect this puppy, though, so that's why I plan to use the carrier and won't put him down in any public spaces. Thus my thought that maybe I'll go back to my car and let him try to potty every hour, if we're out and about.

Then there's the added twist that Havanese are a vaccine sensitive breed, too, so if I follow Jean Dodds' protocol, the puppy won't have his second set of shots until 14 weeks, when the window of socialization is already starting to close. If I wait until all 3 shots are complete, he'll be 18 weeks, and pretty much that window will be gone.

Such hard decisions!

KarMar, you bring up interesting points. I do plan to leave puppy at home in the beginning for short periods of time to get him used to it. I apologize if I made it sound like I will bring him with me EVERYWHERE, but don't worry, I won't bring him places where he's not allowed. I was thinking of taking him to outdoor malls, downtown Main Street, to the school to pick up my kids, etc. I just wonder if we're out longer than the roughly 1 hour "potty window," what I should do. Maybe I'll keep the first outdoor socialization trips short and sweet so that it doesn't become an issue!


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## wencit (Jul 15, 2018)

Can you all tell that I'm a major overthinker? LOL!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

start socializing as soon as you get him home. more here https://avsab.org/wp-content/upload...ion_Position_Statement_Download_-_10-3-14.pdf


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

wencit said:


> Then there's the added twist that Havanese are a vaccine sensitive breed, too,


According to Ricky's Vet, some Havanese are sensitive but most aren't.



> the puppy won't have his second set of shots until 14 weeks, when the window of socialization is already starting to close. If I wait until all 3 shots are complete, he'll be 18 weeks, and pretty much that window will be gone.


Do you have a link to some research on this? Inquiring minds want to know.

Ricky's Popi


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

wencit said:


> Can you all tell that I'm a major overthinker? LOL!


Me too!

I think you do the best you can and whether or not the window is closed you can always keep working on it. The advantage is greatest in the beginning so jump right in and reap the benefits, but I don't think the message is that once a puppy reaches 15-16 weeks additional efforts are completely futile.

Another thought that comes to mind is that socialization isn't just exposing the puppy to people. Isn't it also about exposing them to all kinds of different experiences out in the world? Make it a priority, but have a fun adventure.


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

Waiting a couple months absolutely can negatively impact socialization in a significant manner. I will ALWAYS value socialization over vaccination (though both are of utmost importance). The vital socialization window closes before puppy vaccines are finished and I don't know a single vet that prioritizes full vaccination over informed socialization. While there is a very slim chance of your dog catching a dangerous but treatable disease (vet med has advanced immensely the past few decades) if you take them out before they are fully vaccinated, there is a 100% chance your dog will miss extremely important socialization if you wait it out.

We were terrified of parvo before bringing Nino home, but his breeder made a very good point: we were going into puppy ownership much more informed and dog smart than about 80% of the pet owning population, and even those who take minimal precaution tend to raise the puppy up without any health issues due to unfinished vaccines.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

davetgabby said:


> start socializing as soon as you get him home. more here https://avsab.org/wp-content/upload...ion_Position_Statement_Download_-_10-3-14.pdf


This is what I remember reading!


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## wencit (Jul 15, 2018)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Do you have a link to some research on this? Inquiring minds want to know.


 Hi Ricky's Popi! Sorry, I should have been more clear. I meant that the critical early socialization period, when a dog is most receptive to new people and experiences, is closed by about 18 weeks. I certainly didn't mean to imply that a dog absolutely CAN'T be socialized after that period of time. In fact, from reading this forum for the past several months, I know that socialization is a lifelong process.

I'm currently reading Ian Dunbar's book, "Before and After Getting Your Puppy," and he talks about that window closing by 12 weeks, which I think is a bit extreme. There doesn't seem to be a consensus as to when it happens (and it probably varies by breed and even by dogs within that breed), but I've read anywhere from 12 to 18-ish weeks of age. Here's an article I found that pretty much sums up everything I've read about socialization:

https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/12_6/features/Socializing-Your-Dog_16130-1.html


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## wencit (Jul 15, 2018)

KarMar said:


> We were terrified of parvo before bringing Nino home, but his breeder made a very good point: we were going into puppy ownership much more informed and dog smart than about 80% of the pet owning population, and even those who take minimal precaution tend to raise the puppy up without any health issues due to unfinished vaccines.


 This is so true. I feel like a brand-new parent, worrying about every little thing and every "what if" scenario. I also have to remind myself that I live in a dog-friendly area where almost everyone cares about their pets and vaccinates them, so the chances that my puppy will pick up something, while not zero, are still very small.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

wencit said:


> Hi Ricky's Popi! Sorry, I should have been more clear. I meant that the critical early socialization period, when a dog is most receptive to new people and experiences, is closed by about 18 weeks. I certainly didn't mean to imply that a dog absolutely CAN'T be socialized after that period of time. In fact, from reading this forum for the past several months, I know that socialization is a lifelong process.
> 
> I'm currently reading Ian Dunbar's book, "Before and After Getting Your Puppy," and he talks about that window closing by 12 weeks, which I think is a bit extreme. There doesn't seem to be a consensus as to when it happens (and it probably varies by breed and even by dogs within that breed), but I've read anywhere from 12 to 18-ish weeks of age. Here's an article I found that pretty much sums up everything I've read about socialization:
> 
> https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/12_6/features/Socializing-Your-Dog_16130-1.html


yes Dunbar is a good source. 
Most experts recognize the emergence of a second important time which has been called the period of socialization. By definition, socialization is taken to mean the "process of forming relationships between dogs and human beings" (Pfaffenberger, 1963c). Based on his studies at Bar Harbor, Pfaffenberger reported that, as pups near their fourth week of life, they enter the second period of development which is called the period of socialization. This period begins at about four weeks of age and lasts until a pup is twelve to fourteen weeks of age. Considerable amounts of research have focused on this period along with the effects of rearing young animals under varying degrees of sensory and social stimulation and isolation. Some of the first to investigate the effects of stimulation and the lack of it during this second period of development were Pfaffenberger, Scott, Fuller and Fox. Pfaffenberger (1963b) reported that puppies start to learn at three weeks of age and that "from seven weeks to sixteen weeks they are going to learn the things which will make their character as adults". Scott and Fuller (1965a) showed that social relationships during the second period of development can influence other behaviors and can be used as the framework within which tests of performance can take place. Fox (1972) showed that pups not socialized or given opportunities to explore areas away from their kennel when given free choice preferred to stay in their kennels while other littermates who were given only small amounts of outside stimulation between five and eight weeks of age were found to be inquisitive and very active. Fox noted that when kennel doors were left open, the pups exposed to outside influences came bounding out, while littermates who were not exposed to new and different experiences remained behind. The non-stimulated pups would typically be fearful of unfamiliar objects and generally preferred to withdraw rather than investigate. Even the well-bred pups of superior pedigrees would not explore or leave their kennels, and many were found difficult to train as adults. Those not socialized acted as if they had become institutionalized, preferring the routine and safe environment of their kennel to the stimulating world outside their immediate place of residence.

Understanding and measuring early development was studied by Fox (1971) who found that the Electrical Encephalogram (EEG) was ideal for measuring the electrical activity in the brain of puppies because of the extreme sensitivity the brain has to changes in excitement, emotional stress, muscle tension, changes in oxygen and breathing. Using the EEG, Fox (1971) showed that pups and kittens, when given early stimulating exercises, mature at faster rates and performed better in certain problem-solving tests than non-stimulated littermates.

Pfaffenberger (1963) noted that there were no differences in the attitudes and attachments "between the puppies who were raised in the puppy nursery and those who were raised in the acre fields". His work adds evidence to the notion that the environment has little or no affect on a puppy until it is twenty-one days of age. Fox, Scott, Fuller and others support the belief that a lack of early stimulation or adequate socialization generally results in unacceptable behavior and often produces undesirable aggression, excessiveness, fearfulness, sexual inadequacy and indifference toward partners.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

wencit said:


> I'm currently reading Ian Dunbar's book, "Before and After Getting Your Puppy," and he talks about that window closing by 12 weeks, which I think is a bit extreme. There doesn't seem to be a consensus as to when it happens (and it probably varies by breed and even by dogs within that breed), but I've read anywhere from 12 to 18-ish weeks of age. Here's an article I found that pretty much sums up everything I've read about socialization:


If this is true, then 99% of dogs must be anti-social because most dog owners aren't aware of it. Personally, I don't believe 99% of dogs are anti-social but I could be wrong. :|

Ricky's Popi


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

The AVMA has stated that there is more risk to puppies from not socializing than there is from Parvo or distemper AS LONG AS you use common sense. Avoid dog parks, pet stores, and for heavens sakes keep your puppy off the floor at the vet's office. It is fine to put your puppy on clean grass in front of the church or other lightly trafficked area in a residential setting for a quick pee. If you live in the inner city with a population of street dogs, you need to be a lot more careful.

Ricky's Popi, I love you, and I know you are smitten with Ricky. But he was already a well-socialized adolescent when you got him, regardless of what else his previous owners did right or wrong. I see FAR TOO MANY shy young Havanese because they are over-protected as young puppies and treated more like cuddly stuffed animals than like dogs. This breed is NOT so different from any other in the need for early and proper socialization.

Sophie is ALSO right that "proper socialization" does NOT mean taking your puppy "everywhere" with you. Puppies NEED to learn to stay by themselves and become self-sufficient, which is also a learning process. It is also REALLY important that all those socialization experiences be good, positive ones, not overwhelming a puppy. Make every experience as positive as you can and don't exhaust your puppy.

Of course, if a person has a puppy die of Parvo, it will leave an indelible mark on their soul. But we HAVE to remember, in our brains, how rare that is in the current world and how many MORE dogs (including lots and lots of cute, fluffy Havanese) end up in shelters or euthanized due to not being properly socialized. And Havanese are no more "born" socialized than any other breed, much as we love them.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I I would wait until the Vet gives the okay to take your dog out into the public. Havanese are naturally social. In my opinion, waiting a couple of months for the vaccinations to be complete is not going to negatively impact a Havanese socialization skills. I value safety over rushing it. In the meantime, invite friends and family (without their dogs) over for a playdate. The puppy will begin socialization in that way.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


Ditto .... I didn't take mine out in public until her vaccinations were complete. You have plenty of time to socialize your puppy.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> If this is true, then 99% of dogs must be anti-social because most dog owners aren't aware of it. Personally, I don't believe 99% of dogs are anti-social but I could be wrong. :|
> 
> Ricky's Popi


where do you come up with this?? I would guess the majority of the people who have been on this forum for even a few months over the last decade would be aware of the importance of early socialization. Here's more on this https://www.americanveterinarian.com/news/puppy-owners-not-providing-proper-socialization


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> where do you come up with this?? I would guess the majority of the people who have been on this forum for even a few months over the last decade would be aware of the importance of early socialization. Here's more on this https://www.americanveterinarian.com/news/puppy-owners-not-providing-proper-socialization


I have to say that even almost 10 years ago, when I got Kodi, even if I had NOT been aware of it myself, my vet (who at that time was just the local guy down the street) told me this as soon as I took Kodi in for his first well puppy check up the day after I brought him home. He was very clear that getting him out and socialized SAFELY (and he explained what that meant) was more important than ANYTHING else I did in the following few weeks. He also immediately checked that I had him signed up for a puppy K class.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Early Socialization can be done without taking the dog out in public places where they may be exposed to illnesses. The options are endless. You can take them to friend's homes who have vaccinated dogs. Have them to your house. Other family members, neighbors, neighborhood kids... Puppy training classes. 

This is not Rock Science....


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

Mikki, as Karen said socialization extends far beyond meeting other people and dogs. It's getting them used to substrates, noises, and experiences you just can't replicate in a home setting, no matter how hard you try. And that vital socialization window closes well before vaccinations are complete.

It's not rocket science, but when the very best vaccinating our dogs tell us socialization to a wide array of things is more important than waiting until vaccines are finished, it is best we listen.

They "may be" exposed to illnesses, but if you don't bring them out during that crucial period there is a near 100% chance they won't be properly socialized.


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## lolo1 (Jul 24, 2018)

I live in a city, so when Jack was a puppy I did indoor potty training, and socialized him through Puppy K classes and other dogs in our building that I knew were vaccinated. To get him used to all the sounds of the city, and other people, I put him in a little font pack carrier that I wore and walked around the city for awhile. On leash, we went other places to walk that weren’t frequented by dogs. Thankfully it was the summer. However, Jack was very active so I took him running every morning and let him zoom in the hallways and around the apartment after he had gone potty. I had lots of squeaky toys, chew toys, and he loved the fishing pole. For indoor training he spend a lot of time in his expen with a potty tray, his crate and toys. I left him alone in there (slowly at first just walking to another room) for about an hour or 2 a day so he would be okay with separation. I did not respond to crying or barking and sought advice from other people in the forum for this and mouthing and furniture chewing. Each dog is a little different and I came to the forum for lots of good advice in all areas. Jack is 7 1/2 months now and goes to the potty outdoors, is very sociable, loves people, and is very responsive to training. I started training early (sit, off, place) with treats but when they are very young it takes time to see any real results. I now take him everywhere, but I was very selective before he was fully vaccinated. Your vet will be a good source of information for the instances of Parvovirus in your area. Wishing you all the best!!


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