# Best time to neuter?



## Happy2hav (May 7, 2012)

I've been reading a lot about the benefits of early neutering. My puppy is just over 4 months and I was planning on having him neutered in about a week. Today a friend told me his vet recommended to wait until the endocrine (?) gland matures? Not sure what that means. Amy recommendations ?


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## mamacjt (Aug 23, 2011)

When I had my dog neutered, (8 months) my vet wanted to make sure he had all his adult teeth. Apparently, that shows maturity and once that is reached, neutering won't stunt their development.


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

My breeder said as close to a year as possible til he is more mature.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

The only real benefits of early neutering are convenience for the owners. I would never have a puppy neutered/spayed before 6 months, and if I had it to do again, I'd wait until closer to 1 year.


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## Ruthi (Nov 10, 2011)

Does waiting that long affect the behavior? How about hiking the legg? I was going to set an app. to get Otis neutered, he is 6 months old now.


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## misstray (Feb 6, 2011)

My vet wanted to wait until his adult teeth were in, which was around 7 months. That way, if he had any retained baby teeth they could be removed at the same time.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ruthi said:


> Does waiting that long affect the behavior? How about hiking the legg? I was going to set an app. to get Otis neutered, he is 6 months old now.


Some puppies are hiking a leg as soon as they can balance on 3 legs, others NEVER do it. I was told to avoid letting Kodi sniff around vertical surfaces if I wanted to avoid having him learn to lift his leg. This worked until we went to so many dog shows, where it's really hard to avoid places that other dogs have marked. He's still good though. He still keeps all 4 on the ground when he needs to pee. He does, ever so delicately, lift his leg to mark every once in a while outdoors. But he has NEVER marked in the house.

In Europe, it is very common to NEVER neuter male dogs, and you can bet your bottom dollar that these dogs are taught not to mark in the house. It's a matter of training. Just like pee and poop, you teach them that the ONLY acceptable place to mark is outdoors, on THEIR time. (NOT when you're trying to go for a brisk walk)


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## LindsC (May 28, 2012)

I've been struggling with this decision too b/c there seem to be legitimate arguments towards doing it at 5-6 months and towards waiting until 1 year! My Teddy is 4.5 months. I am now leaning towards waiting, and here's why:

My only rationale for doing it early is so he will not lift his leg and mark. But, I discovered that my mom's havanese, now 3 years, was neutered at 5 months, and guess what, he still lifts his leg and marks EVERYWHERE!!! He has never even been around another dog that does this. That tells me there is no correlation between neutering and leg lifting.

So, I really see no harm in waiting! But, then again, I'm not a vet or a breeder or a scientist....


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## Happy2hav (May 7, 2012)

The marking was my main concern. It seems like there could be misinformation out there regarding this issue. Lots of good food for thought, I am leaning toward waiting.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

LindsC said:


> I've been struggling with this decision too b/c there seem to be legitimate arguments towards doing it at 5-6 months and towards waiting until 1 year! My Teddy is 4.5 months. I am now leaning towards waiting, and here's why:
> 
> My only rationale for doing it early is so he will not lift his leg and mark. But, I discovered that my mom's havanese, now 3 years, was neutered at 5 months, and guess what, he still lifts his leg and marks EVERYWHERE!!! He has never even been around another dog that does this. That tells me there is no correlation between neutering and leg lifting.
> 
> So, I really see no harm in waiting! But, then again, I'm not a vet or a breeder or a scientist....


I have yet to see any serious rationale for early neutering for the responsible pet owner. The only real reason for early neutering is to prevent unplanned litters. Hopefully everyone here would prevent their little ones from getting "in trouble".

From a physical perspective, if you are planning to ask your dog to do anything athletic, it is definitely better to wait until they are physically mature before neutering.


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## Ruthi (Nov 10, 2011)

Thanks for all the good info.


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## Dory (Jan 4, 2012)

I talked with my vet and he said that we can do it whenever I feel comfortable. I'm going to wait until closer to the one year mark.


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## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

My oldes (3) was neutered at 1, my youngest (10 months) will be neutered at 1 as well.

My oldest never marked, he started lifting his leg when my youngest turned 6 months and started marking outside.
They are both potty trained to go outdoors and never pee or poop inside the house.

I read somewhere when I first decided to have a dog that it was best to wait a year to allow full growth before neutering. I honestly do not know the truth behind that, but I aked my breeders to allow neutering at 1 rather than 6 months, they both agreed.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dory said:


> I talked with my vet and he said that we can do it whenever I feel comfortable. I'm going to wait until closer to the one year mark.


Good for you.


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## Happy2hav (May 7, 2012)

We have decided to wait until at LEAST six months. Thanks for all the information. This forum is fantastic!


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## klf0110 (Jun 30, 2009)

I did alot of research before I neutered both my male Havanese and everything I found recommended to wait until a year old. I got both of my boys neutered at 1 year old and am very happy I waited.


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

My vet said to schedule the neutering at 6 mos, which is the end of Sept. I just saw this thread, so now I want to talk to the vet about it. How am I supposed to keep him from "getting in trouble" Karen, buy him little tiny condoms. Ha ha ha. ound: The puppies at Playtime do "fake mount" each other sometimes, but the trainers always break it up if it starts seeming serious. I certainly wouldn't want him to get some poor girl in trouble, the brute. But seriously, I just want what's best for him, and I thought it might be easier for him to have some of those drives eliminated at an earlier age. I will read up on it. Poor boy.
-- Eileen


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## Alcibides (Feb 14, 2012)

Our vet actively encouraged us to neuter Lucky at 5 months. He said his teeth were coming in well and an advantage would be it is easier for the vet to do it quickly, so quickly in fact that he'd use an anesthetic that would only keep Lucky asleep as long as the procedure lasted-which sounded to us (in spite of all the caveats of Forum members) like it would be easier on the dog. That said, on the day of the neutering (this makes me mad again just to write it), Lucky got put in with the puppies another vet was neutering and she knew nothing of the senior vet's plans for short anesthetic etc. etc. (he said the scar would be so small he might not even need a collar). And so the other vet put our puppy out for a good spell, took all the hairs out of his ears which he was down and it really took a toll on Lucky-even just (especially) recuperation from the anesthesia SO if I had it to do again, of course I'd be sure which vet was doing it and I'd wait at least until 6 months or even a year just so (and here's a reason I haven't heard) the puppy was a little older when he dealt with whatever trauma is associated with surgery. By the way, Lucky has never lifted his leg to pee and still doesn't, and he is as rough and tumble a little guy on this side of the neutering as he was before. If he's smaller on its account, at nineteen pounds one could only be grateful for that. Good luck with it. It's presented as a big nothing, but it's an event in your life with your puppy and you want to be sure you have a vet you trust.


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## El Bueno Habanero (Oct 20, 2009)

krandall said:


> In Europe, it is very common to NEVER neuter male dogs, and you can bet your bottom dollar that these dogs are taught not to mark in the house. It's a matter of training. Just like pee and poop, you teach them that the ONLY acceptable place to mark is outdoors, on THEIR time. (NOT when you're trying to go for a brisk walk)


You get that right Karen. Here in the Netherlands the most vets even discourage neutering if there's no specific reason to do it (like aggression issues, sex related health issues etc). The breeders also don't sell dogs with neuter/spay contracts. It's up to the owners to decide when and if they want to do it.

My boy is intact and I will never neuter him unless it becomes necessary b/c of some health issues or so. After much reading and researching I find that neutering pros are little overrated, and that the cons are actually greater. But that's me. I'm not saying that people should not neuter their dogs. Everyone should decide for themselves what is best for their dogs. For anyone interested in more reading here is one great article written by American vet Laura J. Sanborn.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

My (tom)cats are entirely different story...they're both neutered and I would neuter any cat should I ever add a new one. They're outdoor cats, and I find that it's my responsibility to make sure that I don't contribute to the cat overpopulation problem.

May I ask something else? I honestly don't understand what's all the fuss about males lifting their legs? It's a part of their manhood lol. Fedja always lift his leg when doing his 'business' and I personally find it rather cute :biggrin1:. I remember like it was yesterday how proud I was when he did it for the very first time, my little one was becoming a big boy eace:. He is not doing it in house of course, but this is something he has never ever done, nor any of my friends male dogs who are all intact as well. This male lifting leg issue and trying to prevent it to become a habit is something I only read about on American websites. I guess it's another difference between Europe and America. But I'm honestly curious here. Why is it a problem if a male lifts his leg when peeing outside?

Edited to add: even when the vets do recommend neutering/spaying for whatever reason, they recommend to wait until the dogs are fully grown.


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

El Bueno Habanero said:


> You get that right Karen. Here in the Netherlands the most vets even discourage neutering if there's no specific reason to do it (like aggression issues, sex related health issues etc). The breeders also don't sell dogs with neuter/spay contracts. It's up to the owners to decide when and if they want to do it.
> 
> My boy is intact and I will never neuter him unless it becomes necessary b/c of some health issues or so. After much reading and researching I find that neutering pros are little overrated, and that the cons are actually greater. But that's me. I'm not saying that people should not neuter their dogs. Everyone should decide for themselves what is best for their dogs. For anyone interested in more reading here is one great article written by American vet Laura J. Sanborn.
> 
> ...


I have always had males and before I joined the forum I never knew leg lifting was such as issue either. My male Scotties never lifted their legs in the house and they were neutered well after 6 months of age. I signed a contract for both so I had to neuter them as I do with Ted. He will be done after he is 1


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

emichel said:


> My vet said to schedule the neutering at 6 mos, which is the end of Sept. I just saw this thread, so now I want to talk to the vet about it. How am I supposed to keep him from "getting in trouble" Karen, buy him little tiny condoms. Ha ha ha. ound: The puppies at Playtime do "fake mount" each other sometimes, but the trainers always break it up if it starts seeming serious. I certainly wouldn't want him to get some poor girl in trouble, the brute. But seriously, I just want what's best for him, and I thought it might be easier for him to have some of those drives eliminated at an earlier age. I will read up on it. Poor boy.
> -- Eileen


If he has access to unspayed females who might be in heat, you may not have any choice but to neuter him earlier. Kodi has never been nor will he ever be, placed in a day care situation.

That said, I can't IMAGINE why a daycare would allow unspayed bitches in heat. It makes EVERYONE crazy... girls and boys, neutered or unneutered. That's why females in heat are never allowed at obedience or agility trials. it is just too distracting to all the other dogs.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Alcibides said:


> Our vet actively encouraged us to neuter Lucky at 5 months. He said his teeth were coming in well and an advantage would be it is easier for the vet to do it quickly, so quickly in fact that he'd use an anesthetic that would only keep Lucky asleep as long as the procedure lasted-which sounded to us (in spite of all the caveats of Forum members) like it would be easier on the dog. That said, on the day of the neutering (this makes me mad again just to write it), Lucky got put in with the puppies another vet was neutering and she knew nothing of the senior vet's plans for short anesthetic etc. etc. (he said the scar would be so small he might not even need a collar). And so the other vet put our puppy out for a good spell, took all the hairs out of his ears which he was down and it really took a toll on Lucky-even just (especially) recuperation from the anesthesia SO if I had it to do again, of course I'd be sure which vet was doing it and I'd wait at least until 6 months or even a year just so (and here's a reason I haven't heard) the puppy was a little older when he dealt with whatever trauma is associated with surgery. By the way, Lucky has never lifted his leg to pee and still doesn't, and he is as rough and tumble a little guy on this side of the neutering as he was before. If he's smaller on its account, at nineteen pounds one could only be grateful for that. Good luck with it. It's presented as a big nothing, but it's an event in your life with your puppy and you want to be sure you have a vet you trust.


Sorry Lucky's neuter didn't go the way you wanted. I am surprised your vet recommended 5 months. Even the most rabid "spay/neuter early" vets usually want the pups to be 6 months old. Usually, only puppies from shelters are neutered earlier. (some of them are neutered before they are weaned!!!)

Early neutering does NOT make dogs stay smaller. It has the opposite effect. Dogs (and horses) neutered before maturity tend to get taller, but have less muscle mass than those neutered after maturity. This can be a problem if you want to do performance sports with your dog.


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

I don't put Benjamin in daycare, it's just a puppy class with owners and trainers present at all times. I know it's a dumb question, but can female puppies get pregnant when they are less than 20 weeks old? Or do they go into heat by then?
-- Eileen


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## El Bueno Habanero (Oct 20, 2009)

lise said:


> He will be done after he is 1


Good for Ted! Btw he is sooo cute!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

El Bueno Habanero said:


> My (tom)cats are entirely different story...they're both neutered and I would neuter any cat should I ever add a new one. They're outdoor cats, and I find that it's my responsibility to make sure that I don't contribute to the cat overpopulation problem.


Yes, and even for indoor cats, it is EXTREMELY difficult to keep an intact tom from spraying... and it smells HORRIBLE!!!



El Bueno Habanero said:


> May I ask something else? I honestly don't understand what's all the fuss about males lifting their legs? It's a part of their manhood lol. Fedja always lift his leg when doing his 'business' and I personally find it rather cute :biggrin1:. I remember like it was yesterday how proud I was when he did it for the very first time, my little one was becoming a big boy eace:. He is not doing it in house of course, but this is something he has never ever done, nor any of my friends male dogs who are all intact as well. This male lifting leg issue and trying to prevent it to become a habit is something I only read about on American websites. I guess it's another difference between Europe and America. But I'm honestly curious here. Why is it a problem if a male lifts his leg when peeing outside?


I had a very specific reason for not wanting Kodi to lift his leg to pee. He uses a litter box indoors in our severe winter weather. If he were to lift his leg, I'm afraid, even if he were standing in the box, he'd hit the wall instead of the litter!ound: Kodi DOES lift his leg to mark where other dogs have been outside. But when he really needs to pee, he stands like a little horse and pees straight down underneath himself. I've never seen another dog do it that way... I think it's just him. He's done it from the time he was a tiny baby.

Another problem with leg-lifting, is that if it's windy, he ends up peeing on his long "skirt" hair. Yuck!

I have some friends (and a couple of relatives in Germany) with male dogs, and a walk takes F O R E V E R because they let their dog stop and sniff and mark every few feet on the whole walk. The dogs "save" it up so they can mark as many places as possible. The owners know they are "empty" when they continue to try to mark and nothing comes out. I want Kodi to WALK with me when we walk. He has his "free" time, when he can wander, sniff and mark, but when we are walking, we are walking, when I tell him to pee before we get in the car, I want him to EMPTY so we aren't stopping the car for him in 20 minutes!:biggrin1: So I want PEEING and MARKING to be two different activities.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

emichel said:


> I don't put Benjamin in daycare, it's just a puppy class with owners and trainers present at all times. I know it's a dumb question, but can female puppies get pregnant when they are less than 20 weeks old? Or do they go into heat by then?
> -- Eileen


No, it would be HIGHLY unusual for a puppy to go into heat by that age. And if they did, I would hope the trainers would tell the owner not to bring the pup to class.


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## El Bueno Habanero (Oct 20, 2009)

krandall said:


> Yes, and even for indoor cats, it is EXTREMELY difficult to keep an intact tom from spraying... and it smells HORRIBLE!!!


 Yep, I forgot about that one!


krandall said:


> I have some friends (and a couple of relatives in Germany) with male dogs, and a walk takes F O R E V E R.....


That's true lol. BUT, I have found that only the first two or three 'liftings' are for actual peeing, the rest is marking . And beside that Fedja very well knows if I'm in a hurry (which rarely happens) he won't get a second chance to relieve himself, so in those cases he does it very quickly. They're so darn smart! 


krandall said:


> So I want PEEING and MARKING to be two different activities.


Fair enough  As long as he gets his 'marking time', it's a good deal ! It's their instinct and I feel they must be allowed to act on it.


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## El Bueno Habanero (Oct 20, 2009)

krandall said:


> And if they did, I would hope the trainers would tell the owner not to bring the pup to class.


Yes, that would certainly be a right thing to do. Over here the females in heat are also not welcome in any gatherings if in heat, which I find very reasonable. Those poor boys would only go nuts with those good smelling girls around them :biggrin1:.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

El Bueno Habanero said:


> Yep, I forgot about that one!
> 
> That's true lol. BUT, I have found that only the first two or three 'liftings' are for actual peeing, the rest is marking . And beside that Fedja very well knows if I'm in a hurry (which rarely happens) he won't get a second chance to relieve himself, so in those cases he does it very quickly. They're so darn smart!
> 
> Fair enough  As long as he gets his 'marking time', it's a good deal ! It's their instinct and I feel they must be allowed to act on it.


Oh, I was like you... The first time he lifted his leg (he was over 2 years old!) I felt like my little boy was all grown up!. He does it very delicately... Just lifting one hind leg a little off the ground... Not like some dogs I've seen who look like they're going to pee half way up the tree!ound:


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## misstray (Feb 6, 2011)

Brody doesn't lift his leg to go and he also doesn't mark. The only reason I care about leg lifting is because I use a Ugodog at home and that is just a flat surface so if he leg lifted he'd be peeing on my wall!

I think the concern with leg lifting has more to do with marking behaviour, for the most part, rather than thinking lifting a leg to pee is horrible.

I think it sounds like Brody pees very similarly to Kodi. It's hard to even tell he's going.


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## El Bueno Habanero (Oct 20, 2009)

krandall said:


> Oh, I was like you... The first time he lifted his leg (he was over 2 years old!) I felt like my little boy was all grown up!. He does it very delicately... Just lifting one hind leg a little off the ground... Not like some dogs I've seen who look like they're going to pee half way up the tree!ound:


Owww, Kodi is one polite and sweet hav! And the way he pees, standing like a horse ound:.
Fedja does try to get his 'Hello, Fedja was here too' stuff as high as possible lol, but being as small as he is, it's never going to end up as high as he would like to see it :biggrin1:.


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## El Bueno Habanero (Oct 20, 2009)

misstray said:


> The only reason I care about leg lifting is because I use a Ugodog at home and that is just a flat surface so if he leg lifted he'd be peeing on my wall!


Maybe the company should invent a Ugodog for on the wall :biggrin1:. Only joking. But now seriously... Karen also mentioned that issue in one of her posts:


krandall said:


> He uses a litter box indoors in our severe winter weather. If he were to lift his leg, I'm afraid, even if he were standing in the box, he'd hit the wall instead of the litter!ound:


So, I think this explains for differences between Europe and America about leg lifting opinions. Every dog, even the smallest chihuahuas, once housebroken, no matter the weather are supposed to do their business exclusively outside (except if sick or disabled), so nobody uses indoor toilets for the dogs. So they don't have to worry about possible vertical peeing . I can imagine this would be the issue here too if people were using litter boxes or so.



misstray said:


> I think the concern with leg lifting has more to do with marking behaviour, for the most part, rather than thinking lifting a leg to pee is horrible.


When you say it has more to do with marking behavior, what do you mean? Marking behavior in general or inside the house? Are people assuming that once a dog marks outside he will automatically do it inside too? Because if that's the case I can only say that in my experience this is absolutely not true. It has to do with making clear what's allowed and what's not. It is the same thing as housebreaking. My house is already my dog's territory, so he doesn't feel the urge to mark it. There're also girls who mark, and they don't lift their legs. In my opinion and experience marking/peeing outside with leg lifted or not, has nothing to do with whether the dog will mark inside the house or not.


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## misstray (Feb 6, 2011)

I mean marking behaviour inside the home.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

misstray said:


> I mean marking behaviour inside the home.


I agree with Sena on this one... I think that a dog has to be taught, as part of house training, that marking is an outdoor-ONLY activity. It's just like potty training. I suspect the way people get in trouble with it is that dogs don't start marking until later... when people think they are already "house trained", and have let their guard down. Then, if it's not nipped in the bud, it can become a problem habit.


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

On the sameish subject, how young would a male hump someones leg?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

lise said:


> On the sameish subject, how young would a male hump someones leg?


I think I remember Kodi being at his worst between 5-8 months, and then it started to tail off with consistent correrection/redirection.


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

My daughter brought a girlfriend over today that gave Ted alot of attention and he loved it alot. Wasn't sure if he was humping her calf or just trying to get her to pick him up


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

lise said:


> My daughter brought a girlfriend over today that gave Ted alot of attention and he loved it alot. Wasn't sure if he was humping her calf or just trying to get her to pick him up


If he was grabbing her leg with his front paws, it was probably the beginning of humping-type behavior. It's up to you whetheer you want to tolerate this or not. I discouraged it from the very beginning.


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

I had a hard time seeing because Ted is so small, I dont think he could get his front legs around but I will be watching now so I can nip that in the bud!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

lise said:


> I had a hard time seeing because Ted is so small, I dont think he could get his front legs around but I will be watching now so I can nip that in the bud!


It's not so much whether he CAN get his legs around, but whether he's TRYING to. It looks (and feels) very different. If they are just jumping up, they have their front legs close together, and land with their paws flat on your leg. If they are grabbing, their legs are further apart, and they try to actually grasp with their paws.


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## HannahBearsMom (Jul 31, 2011)

Maccabee's neuter appointment is tomorrow. The vet suggested neutering at 6 months. I spoke with Pam and she suggested waitning until 7 or 8 months. Maccabee spent 4 days with a (spayed) female Maltese about 10 days ago, and he "marked" at my friend's house. When I brought him home, he was suddenly lifting his leg to pee, both outside and inside. He normally pees like Kodi, standing and peeing straight down. I only know he's peeing because he lowers his hips ever so slightly. Even when he lifted his leg to pee, he still peed downward. 

The main reason he is being neutered tomorrow is he had not had any pee accidents in several weeks, and as soon as I brought him home from Miss Maltese, he started marking in my living room. He peed in his litter box, and as soon as I let him out of the expen, he hiked his leg and peed on the carpet beside one of the gates I set up. I put him back in his expen and the next time I let him out, he hiked his leg and peed/marked the instant he was out of the expen. After another of those episodes, I put him in his expen until bedtime and immediatly contacted Pam and Tom. Pam was away and Tom said it sounded like hormones and I should keep him in his expen as much as possible. When Pam returned home the next day, she called me and said it sounds like being around Miss Maltese "woke up his hormones," and I should keep him in his expen as much as possible until he is neitered. I nearly forgot one thing: During that time, Maccabee obsessively humped his bed. He didn't wnat to play with me or with his toys. All the poor boy wanted to do was hump his bed. When I took his bed out of his expen, he humped nonstop, but at least he wasn't peeing on the carpet. 

He seems mostly back to normal, but I'm not taking any chances. Maccabee is losing his macaroons tomorrow (at 7 months, 3 weeks and 3 days)!


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

Macaroonsound:


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## misstray (Feb 6, 2011)

Darn those Maltese floozies! LOL


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

This topic always has some controversy. |I think it's up to the individual to decide when if ever. Like many things, this has been pushed on us for years with very little research to back it. Only recently has some light be shed on it. One of the best articles I've found that gives you too much to consider is here http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf Certainly inconclusive
behavioral issues is another aspect.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

lise said:


> On the sameish subject, how young would a male hump someones leg?


love this topic Lise. I respect people's wish to avoid this action. I look at it a a normal dog behavior and if it is not a problem for other dog or owner , and not obsessive, WHY NOT . Just in case you think neutering will solve the problem ,I'll leave you with a quote from Ian Dunbar..."Unlike most other mammals, neutered male and to a lesser extent, neutered female dogs will continue to mount other dogs. Quite common and quite normal. In fact, neutered male dogs tend to mount more than intact males, presumably due to a lack of discriminatory experience". ound: Hey , it makes the world go round.


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

davetgabby said:


> love this topic Lise. I respect people's wish to avoid this action. I look at it a a normal dog behavior and if it is not a problem for other dog or owner , and not obsessive, WHY NOT . Just in case you think neutering will solve the problem ,I'll leave you with a quote from Ian Dunbar..."Unlike most other mammals, neutered male and to a lesser extent, neutered female dogs will continue to mount other dogs. Quite common and quite normal. In fact, neutered male dogs tend to mount more than intact males, presumably due to a lack of discriminatory experience". ound: Hey , it makes the world go round.


Nope I don't plan on neutering him until 1 if possible. I think I was just surprised that it happened this early.I talked to my trainer tonight to get some advice about how to stop it. I don't mind if he does it on a toy or another inanimate object, but not on people. My other males, that I can remember, didn't do it before or after neutering. He did have some interactions with a female dog this weekend so that could have sparked it.


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

I haven't noticed Benjamin humping anyone's leg yet -- he is a bit more than 16 weeks. I must say, though, that as a new puppy owner I was really shocked when I caught him humping the daylights out of his stuffed puppy, when he was only 11 weeks old!!! I did not think such a thing would be on his mind at such a young age, but what do I know? After I got over my surprise, I started taking pictures. I have then saved in a folder entitled "Puppy Porno". ound: ound: ound: I did not send any of those to my mom, however. 

Seems like there are lots of varying opinions and conflicting or differing advice on just about every aspect of puppy and dog care, and the topic of neutering is no exception. I guess I will just keep gathering information, and play it by ear.

-- Eileen


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## El Bueno Habanero (Oct 20, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> One of the best articles I've found that gives you too much to consider is here http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf


I see it's the same article I shared the link for before . I think it's a really good one!


davetgabby said:


> I think it's up to the individual to decide when if ever.


Agree with you, but most people here on the forum don't have the freedom to decide for themselves, because of the spay/neuter contracts. If it was me I would in that case make absolutely sure that the breeder would give me the time until my dog is fully grown. I feel they need those hormones to grow up normally. Especially when taking into account that we're dealing with a breed already prone to skeletal defects, OCD being the most frequently observed. From above mentioned article:

'Spay/neuter of immature dogs delays the closure of the growth plates in bones that are still growing,
causing those bones to end up significantly longer than in intact dogs or those spay/neutered after
maturity. Since the growth plates in various bones close at different times, spay/neuter that is done after
some growth plates have closed but before other growth plates have closed might result in a dog with
unnatural proportions, possibly impacting performance and long term durability of the joints.' 


lise said:


> I talked to my trainer tonight to get some advice about how to stop it.


Maybe I'm old school, but I would just make very clear it's not to be tolerated (humping people that is, Fedja often humps his toys, especially when happy, and I don't have problem with that, as long as it's not me/or other ppl :biggrin1:. Fedja did try it very few times, but I just gave him 'the look' and said the word that I also use for other things he is not allowed to do, and after few more tries (especially when happy and very excited about something, which clearly shows to me that humping is not always a sexual thing) he stopped with that behavior.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> love this topic Lise. I respect people's wish to avoid this action. I look at it a a normal dog behavior and if it is not a problem for other dog or owner , and not obsessive, WHY NOT . Just in case you think neutering will solve the problem ,I'll leave you with a quote from Ian Dunbar..."Unlike most other mammals, neutered male and to a lesser extent, neutered female dogs will continue to mount other dogs. Quite common and quite normal. In fact, neutered male dogs tend to mount more than intact males, presumably due to a lack of discriminatory experience". ound: Hey , it makes the world go round.


Horses and cattle both do it.


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

*Horses and cattle*



krandall said:


> Horses and cattle both do it.


But hopefully not on your company!ound:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

El Bueno Habanero said:


> Agree with you, but most people here on the forum don't have the freedom to decide for themselves, because of the spay/neuter contracts. If it was me I would in that case make absolutely sure that the breeder would give me the time until my dog is fully grown. I feel they need those hormones to grow up normally. Especially when taking into account that we're dealing with a breed already prone to skeletal defects, OCD being the most frequently observed. From above mentioned article:
> 
> 'Spay/neuter of immature dogs delays the closure of the growth plates in bones that are still growing,
> causing those bones to end up significantly longer than in intact dogs or those spay/neutered after
> ...


I think there are very few good breeders who would not be willing to allow delayed neutering for the health of the animal. As far putting it off permanently... I think FEW would agree to that. Their reputation is on the line if that dog is allowed to breed sub-standard puppies in the future.

As far as CD is concerned, since it is a genetic problem, I don't see how early neuter could be a contributing factor. (though I agree with you completely that I would prefer to neuter later for other structural reasons)



El Bueno Habanero said:


> Maybe I'm old school, but I would just make very clear it's not to be tolerated (humping people that is, Fedja often humps his toys, especially when happy, and I don't have problem with that, as long as it's not me/or other ppl :biggrin1:. Fedja did try it very few times, but I just gave him 'the look' and said the word that I also use for other things he is not allowed to do, and after few more tries (especially when happy and very excited about something, which clearly shows to me that humping is not always a sexual thing) he stopped with that behavior.


I agree, humping is not something that most people, especially non-dog people are comfortable with, and it's something I CERTAINLY don't want my dog doing to people. IMO, this is much worse than run-of-the-mill jumping up in most people's minds. But as you said, you just teach them that it's not acceptable behavior.

I wouldn't mind Kodi humping toys. Unfortunately, he believes in "rough sex" with his toys, and they quickly get torn to shreds if we allow him to hump them. So we've had to stop that too.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

lise said:


> But hopefully not on your company!ound:


No... they need to be taught VERY early that it is not acceptable, either on people or (in the case of horses) when under saddle. It is extremely disconcerting to be sitting on your mare when someone else's gelding is trying to mount her!!!(spoken from personal experience!):biggrin1:


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## El Bueno Habanero (Oct 20, 2009)

krandall said:


> I think there are very few good breeders who would not be willing to allow delayed neutering for the health of the animal. As far putting it off permanently... I think FEW would agree to that. Their reputation is on the line if that dog is allowed to breed sub-standard puppies in the future.


I sure hope that the health of my dog is much more important then the reputation of the breeder he came from. To me it certainly is. To go back to the article:
'On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs, especially immature male dogs, in order to prevent future health problems. The number of health problems associated with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases.'

And there're more roads that lead to Rome . In Europe you buy a dog as a pet or as a show/breeding prospect. In both cases you get full registration papers (the dog either has papers or not, there's no such thing as limited registration). You get 2 different contracts. The contract for the pet says that the dog is not going to be breed, BUT there's no clause that the dog must be neutered. Is up to the owner to decide if and when (s)he wants to neuter HIS dog. I find this very normal, because I'm the one who has to live with that dog for the next 15 years (and hopefully even longer). So, if a person buys a dog as a pet, and then breeds him/her, the breeder has a signed contract in hands and if he wants he can act on it. So it's not like the breeder can't to anything to stop it. 
And I don't really see why a breeders reputation would be hurt if someone else produced 'sub-standard puppies' only because the parent comes from x breeder? ? The breeder in question did not breed those puppies. Not saying it would be the good thing to do from the buyers side if he/she bought a dog to be a pet only, no way, but in my opinion the breeder can in this case not be held responsible.



krandall said:


> As far as CD is concerned, since it is a genetic problem, I don't see how early neuter could be a contributing factor. (though I agree with you completely that I would prefer to neuter later for other structural reasons)


You're right Karen. I mentioned CD only as an example of skeletal defects, I didn't mean to suggest that early neuter would contribute to developing cd, but i see how it could be read that way. My fault .


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## HannahBearsMom (Jul 31, 2011)

krandall said:


> I wouldn't mind Kodi humping toys. Unfortunately, he believes in "rough sex" with his toys, and they quickly get torn to shreds if we allow him to hump them. So we've had to stop that too.


Ditto for Maccabee! Those Starborn pups seem to have so much in common!


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## BennyBoy (Apr 25, 2012)

Benny just turned 6 months and was neutered last week.


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