# First Time Crystals in Urine



## nancyf (Nov 6, 2007)

We have an appointment for xrays with the vet on Wednesday. Bella's urinalysis came back okay except for crystals. I need some information before seeing the vet.

Bella is 2 1/2 and hasn't had crystals discovered before. Can it come from food? She's on Wellness now but has been on Natural Balance before that.

If she has positive xrays, what food would you suggest? Moist canned food?

The vet mentioned putting her on Science Diet if she had stones but I don't like that brand. If I have an alternative brand, I can suggest something.

Can this be genetic? Can it be fatal? What should I look for?


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

nancyf said:


> We have an appointment for xrays with the vet on Wednesday. Bella's urinalysis came back okay except for crystals. I need some information before seeing the vet.
> 
> Can it come from food? She's on Wellness now but has been on Natural Balance before that.


I'm no vet but I say yes it can come be from the food. My Smarty had several bouts with UTI and crystals. She had gone on Natural Balance Duck and Potato (Sweet) for a food allergy. After several months she started having UTI. I did a little research and info from the many helpful members of this forum lead me to take her off the NB. She is now on a form of raw diet and doing fine.

Some of the research is now showing too much of a good thing can be bad. The sugar from the sweet potatoes in the Natural Balance can be part of the crystal problem.


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## nancyf (Nov 6, 2007)

SMARTY said:


> I'm no vet but I say yes it can come be from the food. My Smarty had several bouts with UTI and crystals. She had gone on Natural Balance Duck and Potato (Sweet) for a food allergy. After several months she started having UTI. I did a little research and info from the many helpful members of this forum lead me to take her off the NB. She is now on a form of raw diet and doing fine.
> 
> Some of the research is now showing too much of a good thing can be bad. The sugar from the sweet potatoes in the Natural Balance can be part of the crystal problem.


Allergies was why we switched to Sweet Potato/Fish. I didn't know that about sweet potatoes. I just can't wrap my arms around the raw diet. Any other ideas? Maybe canned, but what brand would be best?


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Many of the better kibble brands do not have the sugar that is in NB. I switched to EVO, with no potatoes or grain. Search this site for food allergies, crystals, UTI and you will come up with some great info.


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Nancy, you might want to pm Katie from MopTopHavanese. I know a couple of her dogs had crystals and I believe it was thought to possibly have something to do with their food, i.e. Canidae.


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## nancyf (Nov 6, 2007)

Is the high protein in a food like Evo hard on their kidneys? Even the canned EVO. 
The more I research, the more opinions I find. I just don't know what to feed her tomorrow morning.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

You might want to switch to canned. Here is part of an article on the importance of water. 
Pets who eat mostly canned food or a home prepared diet automatically take in more moisture
than those eating kibble, so they do not need to compensate as much by drinking and
excrete less concentrated urine. Contrary to what many people think and pet food companies
claim, dogs (and cats even more so) do not instinctively know how much extra water they
have to drink to make up for what is lacking in dry food.
A greater incidence of bladder diseases and stones/crystals in animals eating dry food is one
result. An increasing number of American Veterinary Medical Association members, including
board-certified veterinary nutritionists, are now strongly recommending the feeding of canned
food only instead of dry kibble to cats, but the issue has not been officially addressed in dogs,
since they have a slightly better ability to compensate by drinking from their water bowl.
Less “empty” calories


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## susieg (Aug 28, 2009)

My previous dog Sasha was a rescue, she was a mix of who knows what [terrier, lasso, yorkie?]. She suffered from frequent UTI's & bladder crystals. We found out that she had crystals in her urine when she got very ill after a stone became stuck in her urethra. She underwent surgery to remove the stone and recovered from it. We kept her on Prescription Diet CD for the remainder of her life and limited her treats to simple things like egg and chicken and the occasional greenie. One time, I gave her a greenies too many days in a row and she got a horrible UTI with blood in her urine. After that I was more strict with her diet and her UTI's became less frequent. I know its not the best food, but in Sasha's case I think it helped her stay healthy. I don't want to worry you.....as Sasha was much older and had some other health problems. You are catching it at a young age. Who knows how long Sasha had this problem before I rescued her. We lost her to lymphoma almost a year ago.....so it wasn't the crystals that caused her to be ill. If the crystals get large, it can be dangerous and require surgery. So you definitely want to do what you can with her diet to keep them from forming/break them up. If your vet can't help you choose a better food, maybe another vet can? Or maybe there's a specialist in your area that can give you a consultation on diet for crystals?

You asked what to look for... I knew when Sasha had a UTI when she would pee frequently on a walk. Not just the usual marking....but squat to pee every few steps and not much would come out. Or sometimes there would be blood in her urine.

Good luck with Bella!


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## andiesmommy (Feb 9, 2010)

I have bichons, not havs - yet - and bichons are notorious for bladder problems. After - as we fondly refer to it - "The Summer of Bladder Infections Across the Country" as we travelled in our motor home all summer. We started in New Mexico with one dog developing a UTI, follow up in Colorado for that one later. Then in Jackson Hole, WY our previously asymptomatic girl started peeing blood - turns out that she had been silently brewing her own golf-ball sized stone - without symptoms. We never thought to have her checked since she wasn't exhibiting any symptoms.

Both girls now are Royal Canin Urinary SO, which has thankfully kept everything under control for years.


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## Miss Paige (Apr 4, 2008)

My Frannie has had crystals in her urine-make sure that you watch the diet-they can't have any vitamin C or vitamin D-you can get strips and check the Ph balance each day if you want-I have Frannie's urine checked every two-three months. 

Since she has had oxalate stones I do watch her diet-but with her heart problem the meds she is on for that can bring on crystals-after she reaches 13 I am going to throw out the diet food and just let her enjoy whatever she wants to eat. I do give the "kids" home made beef & chicken jerky.

I would ask the vet if there is a possibility that the crystals will form stones-

I also use only distilled water-since tap water and even spring water has stuff in it Frannie can't have.

I am working toward getting her on a balanced home cooked diet-it's just a lot of crazy things that has to be worked out before that can happen.

Good luck and keep us posted

Pat (humom to)
Miss Paige
Mr Roman
Ms Frannie


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## rdanielle (Sep 2, 2008)

I hate prescription foods with a passion. If you look at the first two sources they're generally rice and corn that they are substituting for protein. Ugh. I truly believe that diet is a major factor.

The Truth About Prescription Food:
http://content.theamericandogmag.co...r-your-dogs-food&catid=43:nutrition&Itemid=96

Urinary Issues:
http://www.acreaturecomfort.com/cathealth.htm
http://www.wysong.net/bladder-stones-struvite/
http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/bladder-stones-crystals/

Do you know what her pH level is? Solid Gold makes pH level strips which will help you figure out what it is and help monitor for crystals.

This will help you figure out how to supplement her:
Biotic pH +(Oxalate) or Biotic pH - (Struvite)
http://www.wysong.net/cat-dog-supplements.php

Grain free: Wellness Core or Orijen

*Other Supplements:*

Coconut water:
http://www.litalee.com/shopexd.asp?id=388

Coconut oil:
http://www.coconutresearchcenter.org/


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## nancyf (Nov 6, 2007)

This has been so helpful. I've always done the filtered water but not distilled. That's an easy fix. I'm seeing the importance of canned food for the moisture. We've noticed that both dogs drink so much water with the kibbles. I would be happiest with homemade but then there's trying to give them a balanced meal. And I've seen some of those homemade recipes--very complex and time consuming. Checking the PH is a good idea, too. I've heard of using a little apple cider vinegar in the water to help that. Again, thanks for all the information.


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## newhavaneselover (Nov 25, 2009)

When I had a cat, she had crystals. I felt so bad she would just try to pee in corners and cry and nothing would come out. After we found out it was Crystals, we had to change her food to a perscription food for the rest of her live.


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

I agree that moisture is a HUGE must for dogs (or cats) with crystals. The prescription food my dog was on made him thirsty, so he would drink alot, which would saturate his urine and kept the crystals at bay.
I don't think that all prescription foods are crap. They may not have the best ingredients, but they do what they are meant to do. I would be very nervous doing a homecooked meal on a dog with crystals. I personally chose to go the prescription food route. Stone removal surgery is too expensive and very invasive- I don't care to ever go thru it again!


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## nancyf (Nov 6, 2007)

It's Wednesday and we just got back from the vet. Bella had her xray. I talked to the vet and was surprised that Bella's urine test came back with struvite (sp) crystals at +4 which was the highest. I could tell that the vet expected to see stones but the xray came back clear. I can't tell you how happy we were.

Bella has been on Core Canned food (Wellness) and I mix a little kibble in it. She and Dani eat about 5AM then in the afternoon, I have been giving them some boiled chicken breast with a little mashed carrot and green bean. In Bella's, I've put cottage cheese. They both are on distilled water.

The vet gave us a script for a special diet dog food that should break down these crystals but I want to try this for a month or so. Do you think that will be safe? 

Also, I found out today that last year when Dani had crystals in the urine, they were calcium crystals. So I'm keeping her off of the cottage cheese.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing---I think I overheard Bella and Dani say that.  I (we) appreciate your input! Thanks.


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Glad to hear there were no stones. Do what your vet advises that is why you pay him for an educated opinion.


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## nancyf (Nov 6, 2007)

Bella had her first "dose" of the Royal Canin SO yesterday. She did well except this morning she threw up a little of the corn. She was on grain free food for so long that this could irritate her. But I felt that if I didn't try the RX food and then she developed stones, I'd feel horrible. I'm going to take in a urine sample after a month to see if there's an improvement.


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## andiesmommy (Feb 9, 2010)

That's what my dogs are on - Royal Canin Urinary SO. One of my girls had a bladder infection that lasted for 2 months - the other girl had developed a golf-ball sized stone with little symptoms. They've been on it for about 3 years with absolutely no re-occurenses of stones or infections, so I've been very happy. They had loose stools at first until they got used to it, but now it is a piece of cake. My newest foster is also starting that food since he has a UTI that he has probably had for a long time prior to coming to me. Best of luck!


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Nancy, PLEASE follow what the vet is telling you. 3-4 years ago Lily had numerous bladder infections with struvelite crystals. Thanks goodness we caught them before they turned into stones! We went on the SO vet diet, and I found that it made her very thirsty! And she was gaining weight. So we went on the WD diet and she has done wonderfully for 3 1/2 years. Not one incident of stones or crystals, no bladder infections - nothing!!!! She is restrited on most treats, no people food etc. But she is healthy and I am happy to spend the extra $$ to keep her healty. As hard as it is to admit that your dog might need special food all its life, it is SO worth it!!!


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## Chasza (Dec 10, 2008)

My understanding is that when a dog has many struvite crystals that this is from an infection. Nominal amounts are normal, but more than a small bit is indicative on an infection. Therefore, an antibiotic is needed (followed by slowly increasing amounts of probiotics to put the good guys back in). I learned this both from a very popular dog diet list and also from a dog kidney list. These were all from people that I learned had a great deal of knowledge about dogs health (in fact, that is where I learned of SIBO leading to chronic pancreatitis, which my dogs had and my vet was not helpful in my learning about their condition). I have not had any personal experience with struvites, but anyway, I encourage you to research this so that you can decide for yourself and then talk to your vet about this possiblity.


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## nancyf (Nov 6, 2007)

Bella has been on the food several days now and I notice that she's not drinking water much. I thought this was supposed to make her want to drink. She loves the food. I'm giving her about 1/4-1/3 cup in the morning and the same in the afternoon. More than that and she gets an upset stomach. I hope she's getting enough. I'm wondering if she'll be on this forever or just when needed.

Our vet said that the urinalysis did not show a bacterial infection, just crystals. She'll get another test in a couple of months but she's not showing signs of an infection.

Dani had calcium crystals at one point but didn't have them on the last check. I'm giving her CORE Wellness--canned. Let me know if this wouldn't be good for her.


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## Chasza (Dec 10, 2008)

Edited, but leaving info in for future reference for those who might do a search. 

I am sure I did this once before on this forum, my bad!! I kept reading 'crystals' and thinking stones. I am so sorry. Struvite crystals are normal in smaller amounts! and if the sample sits around for awhile, and not put in the fridge (collect in morning, let sit on counter, take to vet later, then I think even more crystals show up while it's sitting).


This is taken from the Merck vet manual:

Struvite crystalluria in dogs is not a problem unless there is a concurrent bacterial urinary tract infection with a urease-producing microbe. Without an infection, struvite crystals in dogs will not be associated with struvite urolith formation. However, some animals (eg, cats) do form struvite uroliths without a bacterial urinary tract infection. In these animals, struvite crystalluria may be pathologic. Struvite crystals appear typically as “coffin-lids” or “prisms”; however, they may be amorphous.....


This is from Waltham, which makes dog food (I am not endorsing these products, but it's a good reference site, nontheless):

Most veterinary diets for managing lower urinary tract disease in dogs are designed exclusively for managing canine struvite urolithiasis. Canine struvite uroliths are most commonly associated with microbial urease activity due to a concomitant urinary tract infection. Urolith formation relies on a favorable urinary pH (i.e., pH > 6.6). The current recommendation for managing canine struvite urolithiasis, therefore, involves eradicating the underlying urinary tract infection through the use of antibiotics while concurrently feeding a diet designed to maintain slightly acidic urine. (I suspect the 'need' to actually feed special food and especially not for long term for the majority of dogs. I think that many dogs do just fine without changing food for this reason) 


So, my take on this is that some struvite crystals are normal, but if there are stones there, then in dogs, it occurs from an infection. And, there can be infection which is not found by a free catch urinanalysis (as I know from first hand experience). Oxalate stones are another topic entirely and not generally caused by infection, by my understanding.

I did have a dog that one time had a good amount of crystals in there (more than normal). I think we did a short term of antibiotics, and I did add something in from the vet to alter the pH for about 7-10 days. After that, not a problem. I have read many people's opinions that don't feel that it is possible to alter the pH of urine by what is feed due to the acidity of the canine stomach. This makes sense to me, that it would be hard to change urine pH by what is fed, but I haven't studied much on this.

I'm glad your dog just has the crystals, and not the stones, and sorry for my misreading on that!!


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## Miss Paige (Apr 4, 2008)

Oxalate stones are a whole different story-they are hard to control-can be brought on by meds-diet-certain vitamins-and a whole list of other things.

Dogs with oxalate crystals have to be on a low oxalate diet-lots of water-low sodium foods-not a high amount of proteins-and the list goes on & on. I know.

There is a really good yahoo group you could join if you are interested-PM me & I will give you a few groups you can check out.

Pat (humom to)
Miss Paige
Mr Roman
Ms Frannie


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## nancyf (Nov 6, 2007)

I came home after being gone a few hours and Bella had an accident in her kennel. That's not like her at all so we took in a urine sample. She had a UTI but no crystals were seen. Now she's on antibiotics. I thought it was great that no crystals were seen.

I wonder if the infection was there all along but not easily seen until now? And were the crystals caused by the infection? I want to switch to Wellness Core canned food but I'm not sure when would be a good time to do that. Any ideas?


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

nancyf said:


> I came home after being gone a few hours and Bella had an accident in her kennel. That's not like her at all so we took in a urine sample. She had a UTI but no crystals were seen. Now she's on antibiotics. I thought it was great that no crystals were seen.
> 
> I wonder if the infection was there all along but not easily seen until now? And were the crystals caused by the infection? I want to switch to Wellness Core canned food but I'm not sure when would be a good time to do that. Any ideas?


If you are switching from kibble ,that would be a step in the right direction. This is from an article Canned Versus Kibble.

"The amount of moisture in canned food is closer to the composition of what a dog or cat
would naturally eat "in the wild" - whole prey. Their digestive process requires moisture on
many different levels, for example protein is processed in the liver and any waste materials
are filtered and excreted by the kidneys. The liver needs water to process protein and as a
medium to carry waste products to the kidneys, where they are filtered out and most of the
water is reabsorbed.
Pets who eat mostly canned food or a home prepared diet automatically take in more moisture
than those eating kibble, so they do not need to compensate as much by drinking and
excrete less concentrated urine. Contrary to what many people think and pet food companies
claim, dogs (and cats even more so) do not instinctively know how much extra water they
have to drink to make up for what is lacking in dry food.
A greater incidence of bladder diseases and stones/crystals in animals eating dry food is one
result. An increasing number of American Veterinary Medical Association members, including
board-certified veterinary nutritionists, are now strongly recommending the feeding of canned
food only instead of dry kibble to cats, but the issue has not been officially addressed in dogs,


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## nancyf (Nov 6, 2007)

DaniGirl, 9 years, has been on canned Wellness Core food for about 6 weeks and I'm amazed at how much healthier she is. She has energy and her coat is especially shiny and thick. I'm going to wait until Bella is finished with her antibiotics for the UTI and then I'll switch her to the same canned food (off of the Royal Canin SO that she's on now). The canned might cost more but it's cheaper than vet bills. And now they love to eat. I alternate Dani's canned Core between Fish and Chicken.


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## danak (Jun 17, 2007)

Oliver has just been diagnosed with Struvite crystals but no infection. He's always been on Wellness. Now he's on Wellness Super 5 Mix. I have a very strong feeling that aan xray will find a stone. I had a terrier who had stone surgery twice and I really want to do everything I can to prevent that.
We add a tiny bit of Wellness canned to make the kibble a little more moist.
I read here that one suggestion is to go to all canned. Is Wellness ok, the Dr has put him on C-D kibble or canned.
Last question is that my other little dog eats the same food, so should I just switch them both now?
Thanks for any help.


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## Chasza (Dec 10, 2008)

Is he showing any clinical signs of an infection? Because if he is not, struvite crystals are a normal finding in dogs. If there are not any clinical signs, then there is not likely much to worry about or any changes needed. 

IF there are clinical signs of an infection, or if there is a stone, then an appropriate antibiotic must be given since struvites are almost always from an infection (oxalates are diet related). Very rarely will one type of stone form around another. If there is a stone, then taking an antibiotic might be all that is needed to dissolve it - just watch the place where the stone is. In boys especially, you don't want a stone to fall into the tract and block the urine flow b/c this would be an emergence surgery. Choosing to do this will depend on the size of stone, and the placement, and other factors. But could be that you might dissolve it without surgery, depending on all the factors involved and your ability to watch the dog for signs of blockage of urine. Then again, there might not be a stone at all (hopefully this is the case).

You also need to know that Infections can occur that do not show up on a normal urinanalysis. For some reason, there can be an infection in the bladder that will not show up on a free catch sample. So, if there are clinical signs of an infection, then pay attention to that and do not ignore it. A free catch sample can be wrong. Clinical signs are very important.

Another issue is how long was the sample sitting around before the lab checked on it? Struvite crystals will grow in the sample - so a fresh sample must be looked at. It may have sat out for a few hours, and when they looked, there were alot of crystals. In fresh samples, there will still be some crystals - that is normal. Looking at a fresh sample does not skew the results of just how many struvite crystals were actually in there. 

For yearly exams, they want an early morning catch to check the specific gravity. In this case, refridgerate it (do not freeze) and take it to the vet before work. For other samples, first morning is not necessary - so best to get a catch whenever you can get it to them the quickest
so it will not mess with the results.

If there is an infection and he is treated with antibiotics, then you might want to follow up with small amounts of probiotics, or plain yogurt with cultures - Stoneyfield is my favorite.


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## nancyf (Nov 6, 2007)

Lynn, that was really informative. Bella was diagnosed with struvite but the tech said there was no infection so she didn't get antibiotics, only an RX canned food. A short time later she was showing signs again and I took a sample in only to find an infection this time but no crystals. The antibiotics cleared that up and she seems to be fine now. Both our dogs are on Wellness Core canned, fish and chicken. Both are doing well but I have to add water to their food because they aren't interested in drinking now.


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## Miss Paige (Apr 4, 2008)

Just make sure they drink lots of water-fluid-the more they go potty the better it is for the kidneys and the crystals.

I have not had Frannie checked for a couple of months but I am hoping we don't have crystals-it's a "merry go round" here-the meds bring on the crystals or at least help in them coming-but she has to have the meds for her heart-as long as I can keep the crystals from forming stones it's a win-win here.

Pat (humom to)
Miss Paige
Mr Roman
Ms Frannie


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## mintchip (Apr 19, 2007)

danak said:


> Oliver has just been diagnosed with Struvite crystals but no infection. He's always been on Wellness. Now he's on Wellness Super 5 Mix. I have a very strong feeling that aan xray will find a stone. I had a terrier who had stone surgery twice and I really want to do everything I can to prevent that.
> We add a tiny bit of Wellness canned to make the kibble a little more moist.
> I read here that one suggestion is to go to all canned. Is Wellness ok, the Dr has put him on C-D kibble or canned.
> Last question is that my other little dog eats the same food, so should I just switch them both now?
> Thanks for any help.


:grouphug:Get well soon Ollie:grouphug:


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