# 7th Generation X chromosome line



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Ellie had her puppies this morning. This is the seventh generation on the X chromosome line (female-bottom line on pedigrees) down from our sweet Twinkle. Nike is now a Grandmother.

They're all different.

She's had five so far, and she may be finished. Four girls, and one red boy. We haven't bothered her to feel yet, since she's so busy keeping the babies clean while they're nursing strongly.

Pictures to follow later. This is her first litter. She did a wonderful job, and is very proud of them.


----------



## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

I look forward to the pictures to come! Good job, Mama Ellie!


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Congratulations! Can't wait to see pictures!


----------



## RIstream (Aug 21, 2008)

Congrats Tom!


----------



## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

Wow 7th generation! Congratulations to all and especially to new Mom Ellie! Can't wait to see pictures of the beautiful babies.:angel:


----------



## Patti (Apr 19, 2018)

Congratulations! Can’t wait to see pictures!


----------



## Ollie"s Mom (May 23, 2014)

Good girl Ellie and congrats on such a milestone Tom. Cannot wait to see pics.


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Two of them are so dark, with white, that we thought they were black while they were still wet. This afternoon, after they've dried off, they look like they're a Really dark clear red. One cream, a light red, and a medium red.

I'll try to post a picture tomorrow.

I think we've had 7th, and even 8th generation litters before, but they were by way of some of the boys. I don't think we've had an unbroken chain along the X chromosome line before.


----------



## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

Congratulations!!! Excited to see the pictures.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Tom King said:


> I think we've had 7th, and even 8th generation litters before, but they were by way of some of the boys. I don't think we've had an unbroken chain along the X chromosome line before.


Tom ... can you briefly explain the - unbroken chain along the x chromosome line? Congrats! Awaiting cute photos.


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Twinkle was the foudation Bitch that we started with.

If you could see a pedigree with 7 generations on it, the bottom line, for any of these puppies in this litter, would have behind them on the bottom line of each generation
Ellie
Nike
Blanchi
Meg
Abbie
Twinkle

That's the X chromosome (female) line.

The top line on a pedigree is the Y chromosome (male) line.

Your family last name comes from the Y chromosome line.

Twinkle was the Havanese we started with. All those other girls on that pedigree were born, and raised here.

Is that clear enough?


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Mr. King - thank you for the explanation of the 7th generation X line. Is there such a thing as a 7th generation Y line? It's been a long time since I took biology but it seems to me there would be even though the males have both the X and the Y chromosome.


----------



## Milo's Mom (Aug 31, 2008)

Congrats to all of you!


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Jackie, yes the same can occur with the Y line. All of our own Y lines go back a long ways to have carried our surnames.

It's easy for either the X, or the Y line to get broken. All it takes is one generation where no girls, or boys have offspring. We traced our Jefe's pedigree back to Jefe Pequeno, and that's one reason his name is Jefe. Jefe Pequeno was one of the first, or foundation Havanese. When we were looking, Pam only found one other unbroken Y line back to Jefe Pequeno.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Congratulations!!! Can’t wait to see them! ❤ Of course any relatives of Nike’s capture my heart!


----------



## Rey (Sep 28, 2018)

Congratulations! ❤


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Tom King said:


> It's easy for either the X, or the Y line to get broken. All it takes is one generation where no girls, or boys have offspring.


I find this interesting. Now I'm wondering if any statistical records exist for the oldest known generation of either X and/or Y chromosomes.


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I don't know about dogs, but I traced my own Y Chromosome line back 60 some generations. It goes all the way back through the Romans. 

It seems like Jefe's went back about 13 generations. Our seven is over half of Havanese history.

We haven't been able able to get any pictures of the puppies yet. They're all gaining.


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I grabbed a picture with my phone while Ellie was outside. The cream one is going to have red trim. They're all red.


----------



## Ollie"s Mom (May 23, 2014)

Oh my gosh Tom, they are so cute. The two that are so dark they look black, what colour of red do you think they will be? Do you expect them to hold a their colour in general ? I don’t know anything about reds, but I have heard they can actually darken as they get older, is that true?


----------



## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

Tom King said:


> I grabbed a picture with my phone while Ellie was outside. The cream one is going to have red trim. They're all red.


Wow! Even the ones that look black will be red?! That is awesome. I am absolutely entranced with the color changes in a Havanese's coat. They're all beautifully colored.


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

We both thought the two dark ones were black, while they were still wet after they were born. Later that day, the real color came out after they dried. It looks like a Really dark, clear red to me.

Often, the lighter ones get darker, and the darker ones get lighter, but we'll just have to wait and see. This pair is REALLY dark. One a Parti, and the other with four white feet.

edited to add: Pam says she doesn't know what color the dark ones are.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tom King said:


> We both thought the two dark ones were black, while they were still wet after they were born. Later that day, the real color came out after they dried. It looks like a Really dark, clear red to me.
> 
> Often, the lighter ones get darker, and the darker ones get lighter, but we'll just have to wait and see. This pair is REALLY dark. One a Parti, and the other with four white feet.
> 
> edited to add: Pam says she doesn't know what color the dark ones are.


It will be really fun to see how they mature!!!


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

No changes in any of the colors yet.

It's so funny how every different Mother has her own way of doing things. Ellie will put two, or three of them on the heating pad, and then lay on the other end of the whelping box to nurse the others.

Sometimes, when she's nursing all of them at the same time, she'll lay straight out on her belly, with two going in from one side, and the other three on the other side. They have to root under there until they find a nipple. I've never seen one do this before, but they all seem happy with it.

However she's doing it, it's working good. They're all gaining between 3/4 and 1 oz. each, every day.


----------



## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

That's interesting. Well it sure seems to be working with all the pups gaining weight. Happy pups, happy Mom!:smile2:


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I caught a picture of Ellie, with three puppies on the heating pad to the left, while she's nursing the other two. This is the whelping box that they were born in. They'll stay in that until close to their fourth week. They will start their potty training at about 3 weeks. Right now, they're still at the stage of only eating, and sleeping.

Ellie is doing a great job by doing it her way.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

0 The puppies and mama look so peaceful.


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Peaceful is good. It's our pleasure to keep the Moms comfortable, well fed, and happy. They love having babies to look after, and are very proud of them.

Here's a current picture of the babies after lunch today. They're all very well fed, healthy, and happy.

Merry Christmas!


----------



## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

Thank you for posting this. It is wonderful to see what a good first time mamma Ellie Mae is.


----------



## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

Oh what sweet, chubby pups. Love seeing the pictures.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Love the pics and the follow ups on this puppy journey.


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

They've opened their eyes, and pigment is starting to come in.

tried to attach picture, but doesn't look like it worked. Pictures on website under new puppies. The ones that look black in the pictures aren't black.


----------



## Janet (Feb 19, 2007)

I checked the photos on the website - such cuties! Cuties with tummies!
Tom, can you and Pam tell yet what that color is (since it is not black)?


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Not yet.


----------



## Janet (Feb 19, 2007)

For some reason, I am hoping they might turn out to be Havana Browns. Possible?


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Possibly, even likely. That's what they look like right now, but Really dark.


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Thank you for posting these photos. I wish I was in the market for a puppy! Beautiful dogs.


----------



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Tom King said:


> I don't know about dogs, but I traced my own Y Chromosome line back 60 some generations. It goes all the way back through the Romans.
> 
> It seems like Jefe's went back about 13 generations. Our seven is over half of Havanese history.
> 
> We haven't been able able to get any pictures of the puppies yet. They're all gaining.


This is incredible to think about. I had no idea!


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

They were three weeks old yesterday, and started with a litterbox. Like their Grandma Nike, and Aunt Birdi, they are unusually well coordinated early, so this is a few days earlier than normal. You can see one sawdust, pee spot already.


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Lucy is helping with early dog socialization. Ellie won't let any of the adult dogs get close to the puppies, but she doesn't mind Lucy jumping into the box at all. Lucy is really gentle with them, but does try to play. This morning, the cream girl started pawing at Lucy's nose.

Picture was taken yesterday, before the litter box went in.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tom King said:


> They were three weeks old yesterday, and started with a litterbox. Like their Grandma Nike, and Aunt Birdi, they are unusually well coordinated early, so this is a few days earlier than normal. You can see one sawdust, pee spot already.


What a fun, mixed-up color/marking litter!!! And I hope at least a couple of them get into performance homes. I KNOW this is a line that is "made" for it!!!


----------



## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

What darling,chubby pups! They are all so beautiful.


----------



## Ollie"s Mom (May 23, 2014)

Oh gosh they are just so adorable. So cute Lucy is allowed to play.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Tom King said:


> They were three weeks old yesterday, and started with a litterbox. Like their Grandma Nike, and Aunt Birdi, they are unusually well coordinated early, so this is a few days earlier than normal. You can see one sawdust, pee spot already.


Tom, do you leave the pellets in the box uncovered, instead placing a grate over the top? I assume these are equine pine pellets?

Precious! thanks love see the progress.


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Pine Pellets uncovered. At this age, they don't even have teeth yet, and don't consume anything but Mother's milk. They have no inclination to eat the pellets, or even mouth them. They quickly learn that it is just a surface under their feet to potty on.

Lucy was trained to a grate to start with. We put one down when she first came here, but since there were litter boxes that the other dogs use, in the back room, she quickly took their lead, and now only goes on the pellets, except of course when she goes outside.


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

There is a lot of sawdust in the litter box tonight, and the bedding is dry. Pam says she'll probably move them to an expen tomorrow. If so, I'll post a picture of that setup.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Tom King said:


> Pine Pellets uncovered. At this age, they don't even have teeth yet, and don't consume anything but Mother's milk. They have no inclination to eat the pellets, or even mouth them. They quickly learn that it is just a surface under their feet to potty on.
> 
> Lucy was trained to a grate to start with. We put one down when she first came here, but since there were litter boxes that the other dogs use, in the back room, she quickly took their lead, and now only goes on the pellets, except of course when she goes outside.


My puppy is 10mos+ and uses several grated potty trays strategically placed throughout the house, during this training period, with pine pellets. Patti was three months when we got her and trained herself to the potty tray from day one. We had few accidents during the process.

Good idea: A cat box with pellets would be easier to scoop out clean. However, I'd think dogs would track the pellets outside of the box. Do they?

We're installing a fence in a couple of days and Patti will be going outside more and using the trays less often. Eventually, I want to get down to one potty tray in the house. I love this training method. We have a vacation town-home in the mountains, no yard and winters are cold with lots of snow. Walking a dog for them to do their business is a huge hassle and makes it difficult to leave them for the day. Indoor housebreaking is the answer.

Again ... thanks for sharing your Puppy Journey Tales.


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Here's the second stage. Normally, we stay with the low litter box that they had in the whelping box at three weeks, but these have such good legs, and co-ordination early, that they have no trouble with regular boxes now.

They also have a little more sleeping room. The box that the water bottle is sitting on lets Moms get in, and out of this setup easily. That box also slides to gradually enlarge the pen area as the pups progress. It has eye bolts on the sides that are zip tied to the expen. Pam put the pups in while she was putting the zip ties on, and they pushed their way right out by squeezing between the box, and the expen sides.

They are enjoying the extra space.


----------



## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

Tom King said:


> Here's the second stage. Normally, we stay with the low litter box that they had in the whelping box at three weeks, but these have such good legs, and co-ordination early, that they have no trouble with regular boxes now.
> 
> They also have a little more sleeping room. The box that the water bottle is sitting on lets Moms get in, and out of this setup easily. That box also slides to gradually enlarge the pen area as the pups progress. It has eye bolts on the sides that are zip tied to the expen. Pam put the pups in while she was putting the zip ties on, and they pushed their way right out by squeezing between the box, and the expen sides.
> 
> They are enjoying the extra space.


I like seeing the progression of their set-up as they get older, and the explanation of what we are seeing. Thanks!


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Lucy is so good playing with them. They all think she's their hero, like little children do other children a little older than they are.

I was surprised that Ellie is completely okay with whatever Lucy does since she first jumped into the pen with them, but Ellie must have a good feel for Lucy intending no harm.

Lucy will do playbows, bite at them, and let them crawl all over her. She leads them on chases into, and out of the litterboxes.

Lucy can get in by the step on the outside of the pen, onto the larger step, but can't get out on her own yet. She tells me when she's ready to get out.

One of the pictures caught Lucy in motion, and the other in a play bow.


----------



## Ollie"s Mom (May 23, 2014)

Yeah Lucy, what a nice “big sister” she is. Great fun for those adorable little puppies.


----------



## Janet (Feb 19, 2007)

Love the photos, but it is a little hard for me to tell what is a puppy and what is a stuffed toy!


----------



## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

How great to have a “big sister” to show one the ropes! What is a play bow? I could not figure it from the pictures.


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

A Play Bow is one dogs posturing, to invite the other to play. Puppies start out just pawing, and mouthing another one as play. The second stage is the play bow, but they will always, ever after, play bow during play. Look closely to the picture of Lucy facing you. The little puppies have not started play bowing yet.


----------



## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

Thanks! I have seen that position wirh Zumba often. Now I know what it is!


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Awww, absolutely adorable!!! <3


----------



## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

My three play bow to me when I bring the leashes toward them by the front door. I love that! Could we have puppy close ups soon? I really love the markings on the dense colored dark one, almost Irish pied (my favorite marking).


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Pictures on the website.

They have a play pen set up in the living room now, so they can interact with all the other dogs, and have more room to run, and play. Pictures of that coming.

In warmer weather, we set a play pen up on the screened porch, or out in the yard, but this is the wrong time of year for that.

edited to add: We took four week pictures, but looks like Pam hasn't put them on the website yet.


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Here's their first play pen setup. This gives them some room to play, but the most important thing is that they experience a little bit of stress with all sorts of new sights, and sounds.

It's in the living room, right in the middle of everything. Pam just bought this taller pen so that Birdie wouldn't jump in, and steal their toys. This is half of the panels, so it can be gradually expanded. The joints are fixed so the dogs can't push it out of position, like they can with a regular expen.

I've had a hard time catching the puppies in it playing, but did manage to get this last night while Ellie was in with them, nursing. She now likes to stand up to nurse them.

The puppies tails have never been down, even with the adult dog commotion, and the TV going. 

They get some individual time out, both on the floor with the pack, and in our laps. They seem very well adjusted, and happy.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tom King said:


> Pam just bought this taller pen so that Birdie wouldn't jump in, and steal their toys.


Ha! Like sister like sister... Pixel is the only one of ours who has jumped out of an ex-pen! LOL!

The new thing that silly little girl has figured out is how to open a spring-latch Vari-kennel type crate from the outside. We keep her "Purple Monkey", her VERY favorite toy, and the one Pam sent her home with, in her crate, because we don't want to take a chance with one of the others tearing it up, and she always wants to sleep with him at night. But she LOVES Purple Monkey, and is always trying to "spring him from jail" during the day. So we are also VERY careful to also latch the crate in the morning. Last night, Dave heard her working on the crate when he (and she) went upstairs to change after work. Yup. I still don't know how she did it, but she got it open. If that girl had thumbs, she'd be dangerous! LOL!


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

This is their day pen setup this week. They get more room to run around, and things to go in, and climb over. They loved it right away, and have still been good at going to the boxes. The crate doesn't have a door on it, so they can just have fun going in, and out of it. This pen will get enlarged again in a day or so.

We're behind on taking pictures because Pam had to be away this past weekend. We'll try to get some new pictures up in the next couple of days.


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

67 degrees today, so when I came home this afternoon, Pam had the screened porch set up for puppies. They had a Grand time. I think all the other dogs spent time in with them. They experienced Crows calling, horses galloping, and a giant military helicopter flying down the lake. Tails never went down!

I tried to take pictures, but the Sun was low, and the lighting was too harsh to get any kind of decent picture.

It looks like every day this week will be suitable for them to spend afternoons out there. Hopefully, we'll have good lighting one day, so I can post a picture.


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Here's one of the pictures with the harsh lighting. The round swing is a big hit, and I'm always surprised when puppies take to it right off. We're hoping it helps with getting used to motion for riding in cars.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

LOL!!! They grow so FAST!!! My Patti was 3.5 lbs and her ex-pen seemed so big. A few weeks later she'd grown into it.


----------



## Ollie"s Mom (May 23, 2014)

So cute. What a great idea to use a swing.


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Here's a link to the swing:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B077NM13KD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

We have it suspended from a porch rafter, with it just barely above the floor. It just hangs from one point, so it can spin, as well as swing.

The adult dogs just run across it, but we only let them in to play with the puppies when we're out there. They might get it going too much for the little puppies if it happened to bump one. The little puppies can't get it swinging but a little bit by themselves, but they all take to it right away, and enjoy it.


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Their day pen has been expanded, with extra panels on the long sides.


----------



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Tom King said:


> Here's a link to the swing:
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B077NM13KD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> We have it suspended from a porch rafter, with it just barely above the floor. It just hangs from one point, so it can spin, as well as swing.
> ...


How high would something like this be safe to hang for an adolescent or adult Havanese? I remember reading here somewhere that their hips aren't developed until they're around 2 years old, and I assume you have it hung extra low for the tiny puppies. Or is it more a matter of keeping it very low to preventing falls, not jumping on and off?


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

None of our adult, or even young dogs care anything at all about the swing. I wouldn't recommend buying one for an adult. Our puppies get exposed to many different things in their play pens. This is just another on the list. The adults don't care about any of that stuff.


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

We had another mid 60's day today, so the puppies spent the afternoon on the screened porch. They ran, and ran, and finally all crashed in the same bed, in a pile. All five puppies are in that pile of puppies. If you look closely, you can see all five of their heads.


----------



## Ollie"s Mom (May 23, 2014)

You’ve gotta love a puppy pile. Too cute.


----------



## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

So cute! And they look so big!


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

What a sweet pile!


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

They all had their half hour ride to the Vet's yesterday, and took their first shots, per Jean Dodd's protocol. No problems, tails wagging, and no issues from the shots.

Last night, the three that are leaving this weekend spent their first night in crates beside our bed. Not one of them could have done any better.


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

I bet it's hard to part with puppies! It also seems like it's just been so fast since they were born and now going to new homes! Time flies!


----------



## Ollie"s Mom (May 23, 2014)

Awww, what good babies. Some families are going to be really lucky.


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> I bet it's hard to part with puppies! It also seems like it's just been so fast since they were born and now going to new homes! Time flies!


Really, by the time they're old enough to go home, we're tired. The amount of effort goes up every week from the time the Mom stops nursing them. Not so much physical effort, but mentally tiring from paying attention to them, and staying ahead of what needs to be done.

Pam puts such effort into making the matches, that we always feel good about where they're going.

The pictures that get stuck to the refrigerator around Christmas are very fulfilling too.


----------



## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

Just viewed the pictures of the pups. Oh my are they ever beautiful! They have such beautiful coats and the sweetest faces. "Love" is stunning!


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tom King said:


> Really, by the time they're old enough to go home, we're tired. The amount of effort goes up every week from the time the Mom stops nursing them. Not so much physical effort, but mentally tiring from paying attention to them, and staying ahead of what needs to be done.
> 
> Pam puts such effort into making the matches, that we always feel good about where they're going.
> 
> The pictures that get stuck to the refrigerator around Christmas are very fulfilling too.


Tom, I think you should post a photo of that refrigerator... It is covered from top to bottom with adorable, happy Havanese-with-family photos!


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Probably shouldn't post someone else's pictures that they've sent to us.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tom King said:


> Probably shouldn't post someone else's pictures that they've sent to us.


Oh, yeah, didn't think of that. You're probably right. It's a pretty sight, though!


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Tom King said:


> Really, by the time they're old enough to go home, we're tired. The amount of effort goes up every week from the time the Mom stops nursing them. Not so much physical effort, but mentally tiring from paying attention to them, and staying ahead of what needs to be done.


I can understand that! It's hard enough with just one puppy but having a whole herd of puppies - WOW! And it sounds like you do an excellent job from what others have posted.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

WOW!!! Seems like they were just born. How time flies. 12-13 weeks already.


----------



## Diamond12 (Jan 29, 2019)

Him Tom,
My first Havanese will be coming home in March. I want to do liter box training for a permanent indoor solution. I see yoh are using the wood horse pellets. Early on you mentioned that the puppies were too small to eat the pellets. Is it safe to use as the puppies are older as a permanent solution vs. Pee pads?


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I think there are members here that have later trained their dogs to pellets. Sorry, we have little experience doing that. All ours were started on them early. Hopefully, some of these other members will answer your question.


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Mikki said:


> WOW!!! Seems like they were just born. How time flies. 12-13 weeks already.


Coming up on 10 weeks.


----------



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Diamond12 said:


> Him Tom,
> My first Havanese will be coming home in March. I want to do liter box training for a permanent indoor solution. I see yoh are using the wood horse pellets. Early on you mentioned that the puppies were too small to eat the pellets. Is it safe to use as the puppies are older as a permanent solution vs. Pee pads?


It's surprisingly easy to switch from pads or paper to pellets, even if it's down the line, assuming the puppy is indoor potty training. I switched our puppy from paper to pellets pretty late in the game, I think around 4 months. I did it in less than a day by just setting him on it first thing in the morning when I knew he needed to go and making a huge deal about it. I did take him to it a lot the first day, but once he knew it was okay to potty there, he just seemed to know it was intended to replace paper. I know people have mentioned their puppies playing with it and using grates but mine never did.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Diamond12 said:


> Him Tom,
> My first Havanese will be coming home in March. I want to do liter box training for a permanent indoor solution. I see yoh are using the wood horse pellets. Early on you mentioned that the puppies were too small to eat the pellets. Is it safe to use as the puppies are older as a permanent solution vs. Pee pads?


I put the equine wood pellets inside potty trays. I've also used equine shavings inside potty trays, when I couldn't get pellets. My one-year old Havanese is indoor housebroken and uses potty trays. We recently installed a fence and have a doggie door for her to exit and enter, so she's now, also, going outside to do most of her business. But still uses a potty tray when the weather is bad or confined inside the house.

UgoDog trays work the best with equine pellets, but I also use Paws Trax Pads trays. I purchased those first, before learning about UgoDog trays. The trays have grates on top that prevents the saw dust and pellets from getting onto their feet and hair.

Even if the dog does not play with the wood pellets, I would not want an open tray of pellets because the dog is going to track these out onto the floor.

When I first got Patti I used pee pads in the potty trays, later switching to equine pellets. The pee pads have an odor after use and need to be switched out daily or more often. The equine pellets absorb and hide the odors. However, I still occasionally use potty pee pads when traveling or need their convenience.

I believe your question to Tom was, "does HIS older dogs after being trained on an Open tray of equine pellets, play with or eat the pellets when they get older," which he didn't answer.

An Open Tray would be easier to clean up. When the dogs pee on the pellets it clumps together and you could scoop out that part, like one does with cat litter.

Unless you have an Open Tray where you don't mind the dog tracking pellets and saw dust onto the floor ... even if they don't play with the pellets ... IMO ...you would want a grate on top.


----------



## Diamond12 (Jan 29, 2019)

Thank you Nikki, that was great information. I looked up the Ugo dog trays. Does the dog also poo on the tray, and isn't that hard to clean? Also, just to confirm, instead of a pee pad below the grate,that is where you put the pellets - there is enough room?


----------



## Diamond12 (Jan 29, 2019)

Tom, 
Do you continue to use an open tray with the pellets, even as the puppies grow into dogs? Do the dogs play or eat the pellets?


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

None of ours have ever tried to eat the pellets. 

There are always boxes, with litter, in the dog room, and puppy room. Some do end up on the floor, but as long as you aren't barefoot, it's not really a problem. 

They are very easy to keep clean. The wet spots just turn back to sawdust, and that is scooped up every day, or so. Anything else is picked up with TP, and flushed. Never any problem with odors retained in the pellets.

We have some owners who keep the box in the garage, and their dogs will ask to go out into the garage, to use the box, if they can't go outside. I don't know what age they start that.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Diamond12 said:


> Thank you Nikki, that was great information. I looked up the Ugo dog trays. Does the dog also poo on the tray, and isn't that hard to clean? Also, just to confirm, instead of a pee pad below the grate,that is where you put the pellets - there is enough room?


Ideally, poo is firm and not hard and picks up easily. That's the goal! However, you're going to have times when your puppy has a soft or loose stool. If it's soft generally you can pick it up and rub the grate with a tissue. If it's loose you'll probably want to clean the grate. Put it in the sink or take it outside and wash it off. Normally, loose poop does NOT leak down inside into the pellets.

You put the equine horse pellets in the tray and the grate sits on top. Or, put the pee pad inside the tray with the grate on top. Equine horse pellets are used as bedding for horses who pee and poop on them. > When peed on, the pellets puff out, clumps together, turns into sawdust and absorbs the pee with no odor.

I've tried almost every potty try out there. I first used Grass Turf, thinking the puppy would associate it with grass outside. :grin2: Didn't take me long to hate grass turf. Although, you can wash it, it smells terrible in a short period of time. Plus, it's a whole lot of trouble.

Then I used Paw Trax Trays with pee pads. Those were a whole lot better and I liked them. However, as the puppy got older and began peeing more heavily I found they were NOT odor free and needed to be changed frequently.

I then read about equine horse pellets and how Kendrall uses them. Not liking the odor of the pee pads and frequency they needed replacing, I tried them.

Patti was six months by that time. I then purchased a UgoDog tray, which is deeper than the Paw Trax tray. You don't need a thick bedding of equine pellets and a single depth in the Paw Trax Trays works. For dogs that are aggressive and might try to get into the trays, Paw Trax Trays are better than the UgoDog tray because it locks down. UgoDog grates sit on inside the tray but does *not* lock down.

*Correction: IMO* the tray below is better than UgoDog, because it snaps and locks down on two sides. It's the one I prefer, although it is smaller it works with my adult 12+lb Havanese. It is a good size for an ex-pen or out in a room under a desk or beside a bathroom stool.

*Blyss Pets Klean Paws 16x21 inches*
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00TTD93LQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Patti was 3.5lbs, 3 months old when I got her. She had not been crate trained. I put the potty tray in the ex-pen and from day one she innately went to and used the potty tray, just like Tom's puppys used the equine pellet box.

Even when I changed from grass, to pee pads to equine pellets, she without hesitation went to the tray to do her job. I did wipe her pee smell on top of the grate, although she probably would have used it anyway.

This was the easiest dog I've ever house broken, because I confined her and used a potty tray and indoor house trained her first. They all eventually prefer to go outside, but when weather's bad or it's not convenient they know where they can go inside the house. We think nothing about cats having potty trays/boxes inside the house. Works for small dogs, too.

Initially, like most people I wanted her to "do her job" outside and for a few days I tried taking the out the recommended every hour-on-the hour. That routine wore thin quickly, especially in bad weather. In addition, puppies pee and poop all the time. Right after they pee, they'll pee again three minutes later.

Sorry for the long note ....


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Diamond12 said:


> Thank you Nikki, that was great information. I looked up the Ugo dog trays. Does the dog also poo on the tray, and isn't that hard to clean? Also, just to confirm, instead of a pee pad below the grate,that is where you put the pellets - there is enough room?


Yes, the UgoDog has room under the grate for the pellets.

No, as long as the dog has normal, formed poop, you just pick it off the top with a kleenex and drop it in the toilet. No problem at all. On the RARE occasion that the dog has loose stools, you will need to hose off the grate, but then it cleans up very easily with a hose.

And yes, I have one open litter box still. I would not trust Kodi around it unsupervised, but he has some tummy problems due to his allergies. most of the time he's fine, but if HAS a tummy ache, he will eat ANYTHING. (the way a dog will eat grass when they have an upset stomach) and I worry about him around the pellets when he's like that. The girls have never shown the TINIEST bit of interest in putting them in their mouths. Not once. So I think that is dog-dependant.


----------

