# Any Havashu Pups Out There?



## MerryMaeFlower

I sort of accidentally bought a Havashu rather than a purebred Havanese. I love him and he is fabulous! But I was wondering if anyone else has one and just out of curiosity was your Havashu more Havanese or more Shih Tzu in behavior and/or looks? Or was it pretty much down the middle? And what size did your Havashu grow to be?


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## tootle

Wow, that was a big accident!!! I hope he will be a wonderful pet but there would be no way to predict anything that he would have in common with Havanese, Shih Tzu's or other Havanese/Shih Tzu mixes since it's just a random mix of two purebred dogs. That's why I feel so strongly about buying purebreds. Your prediction of what they will turn out to be will be more accurate than with a mix which is basically no different from the luck of the dice when adopting a cute dog you could rescue from the pound. That being said, my daughter's dog growing up was a Maltese/Poodle mix that turned out to be healthy, good tempered and very cute. I think I paid $50 for her and it turned out to be money well spent. We were lucky!!


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## kawboy

We have one of each. My wife often comments how it would be great to combine the best of each into one dog. Maybe you'll be lucky and get one like that. I'd be willing to bet you end up with a sweet dog. They are two great breeds so what's not to love?


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## Tuss

How do you accidently buy a mix instead of a purebred? As previous posters have said it is like rolling the dice and you'll get a random blend of both breeds. Luckily both breeds are lovely little dogs so i'm sure you pup will be lovely as well!


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## MerryMaeFlower

I know, a strange mistake to make, eh? LOL 

I had never specified to the breeder what in particular I wanted and the breeder had both. I misunderstood and didn't realize they were together. I picked out the little guy I liked the best, not realizing I had picked out a little Havashu. When I noticed some interesting traits not necessarily typical of Havanese I called the breeder (just yesterday in fact) to ask about it and found out I had picked out a Havashu. Oops! I had yet to look at the papers I received with Gilbert. I was so excited to have him that every thing else just went to the wayside. 

The breeder was very willing to let me return him for a full refund (no exchange, all the puppies had sold immediately) and felt really badly that I didn't get what I had originally planned. But of course I'm too attached now to consider returning him! He is WONDERFUL, I honestly couldn't be more pleased. It was my mistake, in my excitement I didn't really pay attention to what the breeder was saying about the Havashu puppies because I wasn't thinking about them, LOL. I don't feel the breeder was trying to pull one over on me. 

I was just curious to know if anyone else had a Havashu. I realize its a total crap-shoot as to what traits the puppy will have (either Havanese or Shih Tzu or some combination) but I would LOVE to see pictures of any adult Havashus that people have.  

My parents have a Yorkie-Shih Tzu that I trained for them so I do have some experience with a Shih-Tzu mix. Though I have no experience with a pure bred Shih-Tzu.


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## lise

I hope tho that you didn't pay a Havanese price for the puppy!


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## MerryMaeFlower

lise said:


> I hope tho that you didn't pay a Havanese price for the puppy!


Haha! I've seen a lot of Havanese puppies for $1200 or so, they are not cheap dogs. Though my parent's Shorkie hybrid was $1200, but she has a lifetime health guarantee and all that. These puppies were $450 - $650 depending on if they were boys or girls and with or without papers. I got a boy without papers and he was $450 (well... obviously since he's a mix he didn't have AKC papers, but I didn't think about it at the time since I wasn't planning to buy the registration papers... no breeding for me! My pups all get fixed.). The puppies were all the same price. I know it probably seems like a weird accident to make but it really was a strange set of little mistakes/misunderstandings that led me to get Gilbert versus what I thought I was getting/planned to get. So I can only think it was fate that gave me this little guy! LOL


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## lise

That price is waaayyy to low for a Havanese. A good breeder of a purebred only sells their puppies with papers. It seems with Havanese colour does dictate price somewhat but I have never seen one for less than $1000.00 for a purebred Havanese with papers and a health guarantee. I hope that all goes well with your little pup. Looks like a real sweety


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## Pipersmom

How could he not be sweet with that cute little face! He is absolutely adorable. I know there are a few people on the forum that have Cavanese (cavalier/havanese mix) but not sure there are any Havashus. Can't wait to see how he grows up.


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## MerryMaeFlower

lise said:


> That price is waaayyy to low for a Havanese. A good breeder of a purebred only sells their puppies with papers. It seems with Havanese colour does dictate price somewhat but I have never seen one for less than $1000.00 for a purebred Havanese with papers and a health guarantee. I hope that all goes well with your little pup. Looks like a real sweety


Hmmm... hopefully everything is all right.  The breeder kept the dogs in a VERY clean house and the dogs themselves were also very clean and bright eyed. It wasn't some dingy back yard breeding operation, everything was in the home. Its been quite awhile since I've bought a dog (our other three are either rescues or were given to us) but the last dog I bought 12 years ago came with the option to get the papers or not. Same with the Himalayan cat I bought when I was 21 (over 10 years ago). I know a lot of breeders in my area (middle/upper Michigan) use to offer the papers separately...

Should I be worried?


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## krandall

kawboy said:


> We have one of each. My wife often comments how it would be great to combine the best of each into one dog. Maybe you'll be lucky and get one like that. I'd be willing to bet you end up with a sweet dog. They are two great breeds so what's not to love?


Not arguing, because I don't know Tsu's enough to have an opinion (other than I think they are adorable, but that I, personally, I would steer clear of brachycephalic breeds in general) But what do you consider to be the "better" attributes of the Tsu's? Just interested in eharing from someone who has both!


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## krandall

MerryMaeFlower said:


> Hmmm... hopefully everything is all right.  The breeder kept the dogs in a VERY clean house and the dogs themselves were also very clean and bright eyed. It wasn't some dingy back yard breeding operation, everything was in the home. Its been quite awhile since I've bought a dog (our other three are either rescues or were given to us) but the last dog I bought came with the option to get the papers or not. Same with the Himalayan cat I bought when I was 21. I know a lot of breeders in my area (middle/upper Michigan) offer the papers separately...
> 
> Now I'm worried.


I don't think you need to "worry", especially since you've already fallen in love with Gilbert. Here on the forum, we try very hard to educate people to purchase dogs only from reputable breeders, and your breeder does several things that reputable breeders don't... (produce mixed-breed puppies, sell puppies without papers, sell puppies without neuter/spay agreements...) The GOOD thing is that she apparently takes good care of the pet quality dogs she has. I don't think this kind o person should be breeding, because they are not breeding for the betterment of the breed. But it sounds as if she does right by the puppies she produces, so you and Gilbert are probably fine.

If you decide to get another Hav in the future (and they tend to be like potato chips... it's hard to stop at just one!!!:biggrin1 you will be better educated when it comes to picking a reputable breeder!

In the mean time, enjoy your adorable little Gilbert!


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## MerryMaeFlower

krandall said:


> I don't think you need to "worry", especially since you've already fallen in love with Gilbert. Here on the forum, we try very hard to educate people to purchase dogs only from reputable breeders, and your breeder does several things that reputable breeders don't... (produce mixed-breed puppies, sell puppies without papers, sell puppies without neuter/spay agreements...) The GOOD thing is that she apparently takes good care of the pet quality dogs she has. I don't think this kind o person should be breeding, because they are not breeding for the betterment of the breed. But it sounds as if she does right by the puppies she produces, so you and Gilbert are probably fine.
> 
> If you decide to get another Hav in the future (and they tend to be like potato chips... it's hard to stop at just one!!!:biggrin1 you will be better educated when it comes to picking a reputable breeder!
> 
> In the mean time, enjoy your adorable little Gilbert!


I will certainly be more diligent about what I buy next time. I do feel dissapointed (and now, not to mention a little stupid) for having bought something different than I planned and I hope he takes after his Havanese momma. :/ But no more dogs for us for awhile. Four is our max and (hopefully) we won't be losing any of them any time soon.


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## MerryMaeFlower

Pipersmom said:


> How could he not be sweet with that cute little face! He is absolutely adorable. I know there are a few people on the forum that have Cavanese (cavalier/havanese mix) but not sure there are any Havashus. Can't wait to see how he grows up.


Thank you!


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## sprorchid

Here's my half breed, Ollie, as a pup:









and then grown up, he's 2.5 yrs old now, he's off leash on trail here:









he's a silver sable/brindle:









He's really independent, very much NOT a lap dog, I yell false advertising, ha. he's a great dog though. my first little one. I want a girl hav, when my big girl, Kara passes away.


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## MerryMaeFlower

sprorchid said:


> Here's my half breed, Ollie, as a pup:
> 
> He's really independent, very much NOT a lap dog, I yell false advertising, ha. he's a great dog though. my first little one. I want a girl hav, when my big girl, Kara passes away.


Oh wow, his color is gorgeous! I don't think I've really ever seen that brindle color on a small dog before. Is he half Shih Tzu or something else? He is really so pretty.


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## sprorchid

He's 1/2 shih tzu 1/2 hav. his dad is 5 lb shih tzu, mom is an 8 lbs hav. I can't remember what color they are. but the litter was only 3 and all where the same as him, just a variance in the tuxedo markings.
I had to shave him down at 6 months b/c he broke his leg, and they shaved the whole leg for surgery. it was summer, so I shaved him, I didn't know how brindle he was either. he was much more sable in his puppy coat, he doesn't have the black tipping now, and he's turning more white.
Yeah the groomer that shaved him down thought his brindle coat was cool.


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## kawboy

krandall said:


> Not arguing, because I don't know Tsu's enough to have an opinion (other than I think they are adorable, but that I, personally, I would steer clear of brachycephalic breeds in general) But what do you consider to be the "better" attributes of the Tsu's? Just interested in eharing from someone who has both!


The Tsu, Molly, is more independent than the Hav. Molly will gladly sit in your lap or lay down next to you. If you don't pick her up she's also fine laying on the floor or playing with a toy. Our Hav, Tasha, is very clingy and has to follow us everywhere. If I'm sitting on the couch she has to jump up there and sit in my lap. I don't really think one is a better trait than the other but my wife sometimes finds Tasha's neediness a little annoying. Just as I started typing this Molly was whining for me to pick her up and hold her. She did that quite a bit yesterday too so things might be changing. Molly is not much of a barker but Tasha will bark at everyone walking by the house. This is only an issue in the summer when the 3 season room is in use. My wife doesn't like the barking. I don't care for it either but I just work with her to correct it.

Tasha was easier with house training and once she got it there were very few accidents. With the Tsu, it seems like we are constantly taking one step back for every two steps forward. The breeder had her trained to potty pads so we continued to provide them in the house. That might have been a mistake other than when no one is home. I also think Tasha is more intelligent. She seems to pick up things quicker than Molly.

It's really just a matter of we'd like Molly to get the house training better and Tasha not to bark as much. That's where the combining best of both come in. I can't honestly say the Tsu's have any better qualities. If I could only have one it would be a Hav.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Well, I have Sir Winston. He was in a shelter and he was advertised as Havanese and Shih Tzu..but he was not a deliberate breeding of the two, to my knowledge.






I went to look and he was coming home with me. I think his nose is a little longer and most ST and he is square,tall. He is not clingy but he will let you rub his belly for HOURS..lol... He does not want to be in my lap, but beside me..he does not bark much, he can almost talk to me when he wants to. He is stubborn about housebreaking, but was older and I have no way of knowing how he was trained or if he was trained. With other training, he is quick to learn. To be very honest, if I could clone him I would..he is perfect..LOL. I would not deliberately breed a designer dog, but feel fortunate to have the mixture I have. I have considered doing a DNA to see...but you know, it does not matter...he is mine and that is a loss for everyone else.ound:
So I say love your little guy and don't worry..he is yours now!


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## lfung5

He sure is cute! Both breeds are nice so I am sure he will turn out to be a wonderful dog. Good luck!


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## atsilvers27

Shih Tzus are supposed to be very sweet, yet have an independent streak. My neighbor has one, and she is an incredibly sweet, cute dog. Unfortunately because of massive overbreeding/breeding just for profit by millers and back yard breeders, most shih tzus that I see every day have physical deformities (CD in front legs, really bad, crooked bites) a lot of dogs with dry eye problems and temperment problems, all of which caused by irresponsible and careless breeding using dogs that should not be bred and passing down any genetic illnesses to the puppies. I just groomed a young Shih tzu mix that literally screamed every time I handled her back legs. She wouldn't stand and would sit with her back legs sticking out, kind of difficult to explain but not normal. I was alarmed and wanted the vet to come over and examine her, but they wouldn't because the owners owed them money. She calmed down by the end, but it really makes me wonder if she has bad hips. I told the owners about it, but I really don't think anything will happen. 

Mixes, in my opinion (and this is just my personal opinion and of course there are exceptions with everything) more often than not are produced by people who are out to make a profit and who hardly put a thought into the health of the breed, parents or puppies. They are priced lower simply because there is not NEARLY the same amount of cost that goes into correctly breeding dogs. The fact is that people breeding these mixes make much more money than breeders carefully planning out pedigrees, getting the suggested health tests of breeding stock and showing their dogs. The lowered price for the puppy then attracts people that buy a puppy on a whim and that don't fully realise the cost or demand of having a dog.

My rescue mix dog was an awesome dog but I got him for free from my native country and would much rather adopt a puppy at a shelter than spend money for a mix. It's the same thing, but from a shelter you are saving a dog's life. From a back yard breeder or puppy mill, you are encouraging those people to keep on producing more animals.


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## BennyBoy

I wouldn't give it another thought... he is adorable, he's good with your babies and he's yours! Enjoy him!


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## krandall

kawboy said:


> The Tsu, Molly, is more independent than the Hav. Molly will gladly sit in your lap or lay down next to you. If you don't pick her up she's also fine laying on the floor or playing with a toy. Our Hav, Tasha, is very clingy and has to follow us everywhere. If I'm sitting on the couch she has to jump up there and sit in my lap. I don't really think one is a better trait than the other but my wife sometimes finds Tasha's neediness a little annoying. Just as I started typing this Molly was whining for me to pick her up and hold her. She did that quite a bit yesterday too so things might be changing. Molly is not much of a barker but Tasha will bark at everyone walking by the house. This is only an issue in the summer when the 3 season room is in use. My wife doesn't like the barking. I don't care for it either but I just work with her to correct it.
> 
> Tasha was easier with house training and once she got it there were very few accidents. With the Tsu, it seems like we are constantly taking one step back for every two steps forward. The breeder had her trained to potty pads so we continued to provide them in the house. That might have been a mistake other than when no one is home. I also think Tasha is more intelligent. She seems to pick up things quicker than Molly.
> 
> It's really just a matter of we'd like Molly to get the house training better and Tasha not to bark as much. That's where the combining best of both come in. I can't honestly say the Tsu's have any better qualities. If I could only have one it would be a Hav.


Thanks for the comparison. Molly is adorable!


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## MerryMaeFlower

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> Well, I have Sir Winston. He was in a shelter and he was advertised as Havanese and Shih Tzu..but he was not a deliberate breeding of the two, to my knowledge. I went to look and he was coming home with me. I think his nose is a little longer and most ST and he is square,tall. He is not clingy but he will let you rub his belly for HOURS..lol... He does not want to be in my lap, but beside me..he does not bark much, he can almost talk to me when he wants to. He is stubborn about housebreaking, but was older and I have no way of knowing how he was trained or if he was trained. With other training, he is quick to learn. To be very honest, if I could clone him I would..he is perfect..LOL. I would not deliberately breed a designer dog, but feel fortunate to have the mixture I have. I have considered doing a DNA to see...but you know, it does not matter...he is mine and that is a loss for everyone else.ound:
> So I say love your little guy and don't worry..he is yours now!


Ahhh, what a cute face! I loved, loved, loved my yorkie-pom "designer dog". She was perfect too. LOL And what a cute name, Winston! I love it!!


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## MerryMaeFlower

kawboy said:


> The Tsu, Molly, is more independent than the Hav. Molly will gladly sit in your lap or lay down next to you. If you don't pick her up she's also fine laying on the floor or playing with a toy...


Oh my lord, Molly is beyond cute! Seriously, that face is just too much!!!


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## MerryMaeFlower

atsilvers27 said:


> They are priced lower simply because there is not NEARLY the same amount of cost that goes into correctly breeding dogs. The fact is that people breeding these mixes make much more money than breeders carefully planning out pedigrees, getting the suggested health tests of breeding stock and showing their dogs. The lowered price for the puppy then attracts people that buy a puppy on a whim and that don't fully realise the cost or demand of having a dog.


I had never thought about that, but its a very good point. :/


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## MerryMaeFlower

BennyBoy said:


> I wouldn't give it another thought... he is adorable, he's good with your babies and he's yours! Enjoy him!


Haha, I will take your advice! I was enjoying him so much before I received all this information... I will have to go back to just enjoying him for the adorable little guy he is. 

Though, I am now educated for future puppy purchases!


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## krandall

MerryMaeFlower said:


> Haha, I will take your advice! I was enjoying him so much before I received all this information... I will have to go back to just enjoying him for the adorable little guy he is.
> 
> Though, I am now educated for future puppy purchases!


That is the PERFECT attitude! Enjoy your adorable Gilbert... HE doesn't know (or have any responsibility for!!!) his ancestry!


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## Evil-Twin-Tobias

Sir Winston sounds like my Toby's twin, especially the belly rubbing, LOL. Toby was in a shelter and they said he was a Lhasa Apso mix, but I'm not really sure about that. He has an underbite, but his nose is longer and not so pushed in. He also slopes slightly upwards towards his back legs. My oldest son nicknamed him Ewok from Star Wars because of his face. So I kept telling people he was an Apso mix, but then one day this lady came running over to me and asked me if Toby was a Hav because he looked very much like her Hav. He does not bark much at all. In fact, for the first few weeks we thought he couldn't bark. His housetraining is pretty good, but not 100%. But since he's an older dog and from a shelter, I don't know what his background is on that. He does the RLH thing once or twice a day, especially after walks and baths. He acts like a clown when people come over by hopping on his back legs and doing rolls to get attention. He gets along with everyone and every dog (unless they are not nice to him). I also thought about doing a DNA test, but really what does it matter. Each dog is unique and that's why we love them so. Except for the housetraining mishaps, in my eyes Toby is the perfect dog.


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## Evil-Twin-Tobias

BTW, Gilbert is a doll. Enjoy him.


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## krandall

Toby is a doll too! I LOVE that little EWOK face!


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## jessegirl

I don't know about everyone else, but I want to see more Gilbert pics. He's such a little sweetie!!!!!! I love the little white spot on his head. And he definitely has the big floofy paws of a Hav!

More pics!


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Yes, more photos of Gilbert please!!!


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## MerryMaeFlower

Evil-Twin-Tobias said:


> BTW, Gilbert is a doll. Enjoy him.


Thanks! Toby is super cute! I bet Gilbert will look a lot like him when he's full grown.


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## LindsC

What exactly does "with papers" or "without papers" mean? Is AKC limited registration considered "with papers?"


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## mellowbo

I know that it is impossible to know what we don't know BUT hopefully we can all learn from forums such as these so we can help all dogs have a better healthier life. The real ethical breeders breed to improve a breed and try to breed out the bad tendencies. The only real way to do this is to do a lot of homework, studying, health testing and breeding to other health tested dogs. This is expensive, otherwise it's a crap shoot. Many of the best breeders make no profit or lose money. And the puppy's from ethical breeders will come with a spay/neuter contract unless breeder wants to co-own the puppy for maybe future, well thought out and planned reasons.

I agree that if we want mixed breeds we should save a life from a shelter. The mills breeding designer dogs are not thinking about the dogs, only the money they can get from a fad.

Again, we only know what we have been taught! Your puppy is ADORABLE and I'm glad it will have a wonderful life with you! I am hoping you will help spread the word about avoiding puppy mills. xxoox


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## MerryMaeFlower

Jessegirl & Flynn, thanks!


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## MerryMaeFlower

mellowbo said:


> Again, we only know what we have been taught! Your puppy is ADORABLE and I'm glad it will have a wonderful life with you! I am hoping you will help spread the word about avoiding puppy mills. xxoox


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## MerryMaeFlower

kawboy said:


> With the Tsu, it seems like we are constantly taking one step back for every two steps forward. The breeder had her trained to potty pads so we continued to provide them in the house. That might have been a mistake other than when no one is home.


My parent's yorkie-tzu was always having accidents in the house until I convinced them to get a doggy door a year ago (she had been piddle pad trained also, and I agree, sometimes this can make it worse it seems). After the initial couple days of getting used to the door she loved it. She hasn't had a single accident since then and both yorkies & shih tzus are notoriously hard to house break. They wish they had gotten the doggy door sooner. 

I plan to install a new smaller doggy door for Gilbert since the larger doggy doors we currently have are really hard for our incredibly tall Japanese Chin to get through so I am not sure Gilbert will be able to get through them even once he is full grown. The doggy door is the best invention ever in my opinion! LOL


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## Evil-Twin-Tobias

We are thinking about getting a doggie door. Please let us know how it goes with Gilbert. Good luck.


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## MerryMaeFlower

LindsC said:


> What exactly does "with papers" or "without papers" mean? Is AKC limited registration considered "with papers?"


Either with or without the AKC registration papers... in Gilbert's case "with papers" would not have been an option had I asked for it since you can't register a Havashu.


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## MerryMaeFlower

Evil-Twin-Tobias said:


> We are thinking about getting a doggie door. Please let us know how it goes with Gilbert. Good luck.


I definitely will.  I've read that house training a Shih Tzu is the biggest problem people have with them (!) so I am hoping that a new smaller doggy door will make this easier. So far he has been doing quite well, but sometimes when he goes out and potties he has to potty again 5 or 10 minutes later and I mistake those "need to go potty" cues for "want to play outside" cues and don't respond quickly enough. Hence my hope the doggy door will make a difference. Luckily he hasn't once gone where I didn't catch him in the act.


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## krandall

LindsC said:


> What exactly does "with papers" or "without papers" mean? Is AKC limited registration considered "with papers?"


Akc limited registration is definitely WITH papers. Please keep in mind that NO reputable breeder of purebred dogs sells puppies without papers. There is simply no reason to be breeding unregistered puppies.


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## HoneyBunny

Gilbert is sooo super-adorable!

My Honey is a Cavanese (as Julie mentioned in her post).. She is more Havanese looking, but has some traits from the Cavalier King Charles too... I like to believe that she has the best of both breeds 

Enjoy every minute with your cutie-pie!


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## jessegirl

HoneyBunny said:


> Gilbert is sooo super-adorable!
> 
> My Honey is a Cavanese (as Julie mentioned in her post).. She is more Havanese looking, but has some traits from the Cavalier King Charles too... I like to believe that she has the best of both breeds
> 
> Enjoy every minute with your cutie-pie!


I've heard of those called Cavachons too! A Cavachon was the "Daily Puppy" the other day.


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## krandall

jessegirl said:


> I've heard of those called Cavachons too! A Cavachon was the "Daily Puppy" the other day.


Cavachons are a Cavalier x Bichon Frise.


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## BennyBoy

krandall said:


> There is simply no reason to be breeding unregistered puppies.


Why do you say that?


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## krandall

BennyBoy said:


> Why do you say that?





BennyBoy said:


> Why do you say that?


There are too many unregistered and mixed breed dogs in the world already. IMO, people who are not committed to owning well-bred, registered purebred dogs, but still want to own a dog should adopt fom a shelter or rescue organization. I don't know of a breed that doesn't have a rescue.

In this particular case, Gilberts owner didn't know any better. She has fallen in love with a particular puppy, and it is too late to go back. But hopefully, she will know what to look for in a good breeder the next time around!


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## BennyBoy

krandall said:


> There are too many unregistered and mixed breed dogs in the world already. IMO, people who are not committed to owning well-bred, registered purebred dogs, but still want to own a dog should adopt fom a shelter or rescue organization. I don't know of a breed that doesn't have a rescue.


 Well, since that's your opinion, I will leave it at that....


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## kawboy

krandall said:


> There are too many unregistered and mixed breed dogs in the world already. IMO, people who are not committed to owning well-bred, registered purebred dogs, but still want to own a dog should adopt fom a shelter or rescue organization. I don't know of a breed that doesn't have a rescue.
> 
> In this particular case, Gilberts owner didn't know any better. She has fallen in love with a particular puppy, and it is too late to go back. But hopefully, she will know what to look for in a good breeder the next time around!


I have to agree with you. There are too many people who breed mixed breeds with no concern for the long term health consequences to the dog or the new owner who might end up heart broken when the dog is only 2 or 3 yrs old and has to be put down. That might not happen often but it does happen.

When we got Tasha, I based my judgement on the conditions at the womans house where we got her. Everything looked reasonably clean and the puppies had free roam and were having fun. I didn't realize at the time that she bred some herself and purchased some puppies to resell. Only after I had fallen in love with Tasha did I learn that she bought her and another Hav from another breeder. I have a strong suspicion that Tasha came from a puppymill but can't know for sure. We got our Shih Tzu from a reputable breeder and I will be darn sure our next Hav comes from one also. The thought of one penney of my money going to perpetuate a mill makes me sick.

It's just a matter of live and learn. If we make a mistake in choosing our breeder we make sure to get it right next time. That is something I have learned on this forum.


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## Rene831

kawboy said:


> I have to agree with you. There are too many people who breed mixed breeds with no concern for the long term health consequences to the dog or the new owner who might end up heart broken when the dog is only 2 or 3 yrs old and has to be put down. That might not happen often but it does happen.
> 
> When we got Tasha, I based my judgement on the conditions at the womans house where we got her. Everything looked reasonably clean and the puppies had free roam and were having fun. I didn't realize at the time that she bred some herself and purchased some puppies to resell. Only after I had fallen in love with Tasha did I learn that she bought her and another Hav from another breeder. I have a strong suspicion that Tasha came from a puppymill but can't know for sure. We got our Shih Tzu from a reputable breeder and I will be darn sure our next Hav comes from one also. The thought of one penney of my money going to perpetuate a mill makes me sick.
> 
> It's just a matter of live and learn. If we make a mistake in choosing our breeder we make sure to get it right next time. That is something I have learned on this forum.


I found this wonderful forum after Charly had come to our family. I thought I had done the research into what breed would be best for us considering allergies and lifestyle. I knew the problems we encountered with our beloved white toy poodle. My husband had been yearning for another dog for years and wanted a brown dog. In my search I had difficulties finding a chocolate hav. Then we found Charly. I was told by the breeder there would be an extra charge for her papers. At the time we declined papers as Charlys was to be our pet. She is so smart and loves her training I started having second thoughts and was considering continuing her training and thought about learning how to get into showing her. I contacted the breeder and she told me to paypal the extra cost to her and she would mail the papers. I then got a disturbing phone call saying that she thought she had gotten the papers from the breeder. come to find out Charley's mother had been found dead the morning after birth and the 3 puppies had been taken in by this Bierer Yorkie breeder as a favor! I was told the litter never got registered due to the circumstances. finally after I offered to pay for late registration I was told the mother was unregistered. There were ribbon winning show pics of the Hav. on her web site. 
I was embarrassed to mention this before but have come to realize that I am not the first and that people here are understanding of our misinformed choices as new Hav. owners. 
I am worried about possible health issues that may come up as she matures but thankfully my husband and I have the funds for such expenses or we would not have added a dog to the family. On a positive note.. with the knowledge I have gained at the forum we are more prepared now for our next new addition. We are close to getting our second fur-baby!


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## MerryMaeFlower

Well, my little Havashu the hybrid is wonderful despite the confusing circumstances surrounding his purchase.  He has just the best personality I could ask for... so much like my beloved Ophie (who passed away a few years ago) that its almost as if I have her clone!

Rene, I'm sorry about your experience.


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## mellowbo

Rene, what a horrifying story! It is so sad that people can be so deceiving but when it comes to money unfortunately anything goes. 
Let me try to make it clear for those still looking. Ethical breeders who have AKC registered, health tested sire and dams either sell a puppy on a spay/neuter contract or they continue to co-own them. They do not want their "lines" to be just bred to "any dog" because they want to be able to control how the dogs are bred. They breed to make the dogs better, not just to breed and make money. If you are looking at a breeder who gives you the option to breed (have full registered paperwork) if you pay more then they are not being responsible, just trying to make more money. I hope this makes sense.
I thank you so much with coming forward with this info. This is exactly how we educate peeps on what to be looking out for.
Your Charlys is ADORABLE!!


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## kawboy

MerryMaeFlower said:


> Well, my little Havashu the hybrid is wonderful despite the confusing circumstances surrounding his purchase.  He has just the best personality I could ask for... so much like my beloved Ophie (who passed away a few years ago) that its almost as if I have her clone!
> 
> Rene, I'm sorry about your experience.


I'm sure you will have a great experience with your puppy. They are two great breeds and I can't imagine anything but a sweet and happy dog coming from it. Like many of us, when it comes time for another you'll have more information to help you decide how to go about finding the right puppy. There are some great breeders here and that's where I plan to start next time. That is unless my dogs outlive me which could happen. I wouldn't think twice about paying $2000 or so from a good breeder thanks to everything I've learned here.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Renee, I am so sorry you were hesitant to discuss all of this. No, you are not the first and you will not be the last. Many lead with their heart and once that puppy is yours, it is yours!! Once you are part of this forum, your puppy is part of this form and most people here will make you feel welcome. If there are those who do not make you feel that way, then they are not here for the right reasons. There is so much to learn here, it is a great group with much experience..enjoy!


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

MerryMaeFlower said:


> Well, my little Havashu the hybrid is wonderful despite the confusing circumstances surrounding his purchase.  He has just the best personality I could ask for... so much like my beloved Ophie (who passed away a few years ago) that its almost as if I have her clone!
> 
> Rene, I'm sorry about your experience.


Your Gilbert is unique and there is an old saying..."things work out the way they should"..I think you and Gilbert were made for each other. He is a hit with that little avatar...I agree with Kawboy, both breeds are great so don't forget, YOU have the best of both worlds...


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## MerryMaeFlower

Kowboy & Flynn...

Thank you for your kind words! (Kowboy, I'm in Michigan too! Though I am not sure where Iron Mountain is...)

I agree, Gilbert and I were made for each other. After I lost Ophie I didn't think I could find another dog I would love as much as her. I have helped train some other puppies since Ophie passed and I didn't connect with any of those breeds like I did with Ophie. It was very sad because I was starting to think I would never find another dog I could love as much as her. But Gilbert is perfect and even though I've only had him a short time I know he's the dog for me. LOL Goodness... I sound so cheesy.


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## kawboy

MerryMaeFlower said:


> Kowboy & Flynn...
> 
> Thank you for your kind words! (Kowboy, I'm in Michigan too! Though I am not sure where Iron Mountain is...)
> 
> I agree, Gilbert and I were made for each other. After I lost Ophie I didn't think I could find another dog I would love as much as her. I have helped train some other puppies since Ophie passed and I didn't connect with any of those breeds like I did with Ophie. It was very sad because I was starting to think I would never find another dog I could love as much as her. But Gilbert is perfect and even though I've only had him a short time I know he's the dog for me. LOL Goodness... I sound so cheesy.


Iron Mountain is in the UP on the Wisconsin border. I lost a dog that I had adopted from the local shelter. We then got a rescue Keeshond who turned out great but I thought I'd never find another like the puppy I had from the shelter. Then came Tasha. She is more like my daughter than a dog. We are inseperable friends. She sits in my lap all day and cuddles close to me in bed. I would be devastated if I lost her. Who knew you could love a dog so much.


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## MerryMaeFlower

kawboy said:


> Iron Mountain is in the UP on the Wisconsin border. I lost a dog that I had adopted from the local shelter. We then got a rescue Keeshond who turned out great but I thought I'd never find another like the puppy I had from the shelter. Then came Tasha. She is more like my daughter than a dog. We are inseperable friends. She sits in my lap all day and cuddles close to me in bed. I would be devastated if I lost her. Who knew you could love a dog so much.


Oh wow, you are WAY up there. 

If only dogs lived LONGER... :/


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## krandall

Rene831 said:


> I found this wonderful forum after Charly had come to our family. I thought I had done the research into what breed would be best for us considering allergies and lifestyle. I knew the problems we encountered with our beloved white toy poodle. My husband had been yearning for another dog for years and wanted a brown dog. In my search I had difficulties finding a chocolate hav. Then we found Charly. I was told by the breeder there would be an extra charge for her papers. At the time we declined papers as Charlys was to be our pet. She is so smart and loves her training I started having second thoughts and was considering continuing her training and thought about learning how to get into showing her. I contacted the breeder and she told me to paypal the extra cost to her and she would mail the papers. I then got a disturbing phone call saying that she thought she had gotten the papers from the breeder. come to find out Charley's mother had been found dead the morning after birth and the 3 puppies had been taken in by this Bierer Yorkie breeder as a favor! I was told the litter never got registered due to the circumstances. finally after I offered to pay for late registration I was told the mother was unregistered. There were ribbon winning show pics of the Hav. on her web site.
> I was embarrassed to mention this before but have come to realize that I am not the first and that people here are understanding of our misinformed choices as new Hav. owners.
> I am worried about possible health issues that may come up as she matures but thankfully my husband and I have the funds for such expenses or we would not have added a dog to the family. On a positive note.. with the knowledge I have gained at the forum we are more prepared now for our next new addition. We are close to getting our second fur-baby!


Thanks for sharing your story... A lot of first-time buyers get taken in. You are far from alone. And the good news is that you have a darling little girl, in spite of her poor brginning.

I also wanted to point out that you CAN still show her in all the performance divisions, even if she is not registered. In fact, the dog doesn't even need to be a purebred, registered or not!


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## krandall

kawboy said:


> I'm sure you will have a great experience with your puppy. They are two great breeds and I can't imagine anything but a sweet and happy dog coming from it. Like many of us, when it comes time for another you'll have more information to help you decide how to go about finding the right puppy. There are some great breeders here and that's where I plan to start next time. That is unless my dogs outlive me which could happen. I wouldn't think twice about paying $2000 or so from a good breeder thanks to everything I've learned here.


Very well said, though I'd add tahat as wonderful as our forum breeders are, there are many wonderful breeders who DO NOT participate in the forum, too!


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## krandall

MerryMaeFlower said:


> Kowboy & Flynn...
> 
> Thank you for your kind words! (Kowboy, I'm in Michigan too! Though I am not sure where Iron Mountain is...)
> 
> I agree, Gilbert and I were made for each other. After I lost Ophie I didn't think I could find another dog I would love as much as her. I have helped train some other puppies since Ophie passed and I didn't connect with any of those breeds like I did with Ophie. It was very sad because I was starting to think I would never find another dog I could love as much as her. But Gilbert is perfect and even though I've only had him a short time I know he's the dog for me. LOL Goodness... I sound so cheesy.


No you don't... You sound like someone in love with their puppy... And that's how it SHOULD be. After 3 years I am still as much in love with Kodi as the day I met him. That is all I wish for EVERY new puppy owner!


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## Rene831

Thank you all so much for the kind words of understanding!
Mae, Mixed breeds can make wounderful pets. The best dog I ever had in my life was a mixed breed from a shelter. She was very smart and loving. My biking companion. Sophie saved my son and I from our house fire 30 yrs ago.
Karen, I have been looking into continuing classes with my Charly girl. I thought about agility but have read she should not be jumping untill she is older than 1 yr. Some of the testing points in Canine good citisen would be an expantion to her training so I think we might go in that direction for now. We could start learning rally maybe later unless she should start while she is on the younger age. What are your thoughts?


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

What a darling little Charly girl!!!


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