# Potty training- frustrated and concerned



## Mirafi (Aug 1, 2012)

So, the last puppy I had was probably about 14 years ago, a big dog, and at 8 weeks old bringing her home she was housetrained in a week and never had an accident.

I've had Sachi home for a week and a day and I can't even count the number of "accidents" she's had. She's 11 weeks old.

Reading through the threads here has me thinking that one of the issues is how she was penned before I got her. Basically she was in a playpen scenario that was like a raised grate over a tray with pee pad underneath, where 3/4 of the pen the pups were on was covered with a pee pad in addition to the pee pad underneath the grate. When I went to visit I observed her laying on the pee pad, playing on the pee pad, and peeing pretty much wherever within the pen.

For the first few days after I brought her home I kept to what I now think was a rather loose schedule, that is I took her outside every hour on the hour and mostly had her either running around the house with me or in her ex pen if I couldn't have eyes on her. Unfortunately she just seemed like a pee machine, would squat wherever constantly surprising me with no warning, and the constant accidents in the house caused me to really go on a much tighter confinement schedule.

Now I've been on the tighter schedule for about 4 days and just when i think she might be getting it I'll do something like put her down when I'm putting my shoes on and she immediately just squats and pees wherever. If I bring her to another part of the house for our play session that's not right in the room we normally play in it's almost a guarantee of her peeing.

If books like Ian Dunbar's are to be believed, even one accident spells future DOOM. if that's the case, I am screwed.

I have a month to be home with her all the time and get her trained. Here is exactly what I'm doing as a daily potty training routine, please whoever can help me read this and tell me what i'm doing wrong or can do better:

She has never had an accident in her crate and holds it all night (7-8 hours).

1. Take her outside first thing in the morning. Assuming she pees (which she always does), this starts the cycle for the rest of the day's routine.

2. When I am sure she's peed outside and has an empty bladder, I bring her in and we have a play and training session for about 20 minutes to a half hour.

3. After play session, I put her in her ex pen with toys and pee pads in one corner, her crate in the other, for another 20 minutes

4. After 20 minutes in the ex pen (I set a timer) I put her in her crate with the door closed for 15 minutes.

5. After 15 minutes in the crate, I take her out of the crate and immediately outside. If she doesn't pee while outside I do not reward and immediately bring her in and put her in her crate for another 15 minutes, then bring her outside and try again. This part of the cycle repeats until she's peed, then a new cycle starts with another play and training session, the whole thing beginning anew.

I take her for a long walk and/or trip to the park every day that it's not raining, usually about 2 hours.

Sometimes while in the ex pen she pees anyway even though the time is short (usually when she's drank a lot of water), and at those times she may or may not pee on the pads. It's about 50/50 she goes to the pads or just squats on the wood floor.

I wanted to try and train her to use a litter box but considering half the time she doesn't even go on the pads I'm feeling it's probably not the smartest thing to try and switch it up.

Please anyone who can, review my system and give me some advice or maybe reassurance? I'm biting my nails wondering if this is how it's going to always be or what.

Thanks


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yes this is what happens when they miss the boat early on. Here' s a method that a freind has found helpful. 

Get an 
ex-pen and set it up on a tarpaulin, in a location where you spend lots 
of time in your home. In the ex-pen, put a crate with a comfy bed in 
it, and if possible, put the crate up so that it is a few inches off the 
floor. Also make a bed for him that is a few inches off the floor. You 
are putting beds higher because dogs often like to sleep higher than 
their surroundings and with dogs who are not housebroken as adults they 
will sometimes take the height as a salient criteria for not soiling a 
bed. Then on the floor, cover 100% with pee pads. When you cannot 
directly handle him, that is where he should be. Don't worry about 
urination and defecation in the ex-pen cause the whole thing is covered 
and on a protected surface. When he has been on this successfully for 
three weeks, take away a pee pad. If he is successful on this surface 
for three weeks, take away another pee pad. Continue in this way until 
he is choose pee pads. I tell people that in dogs who missed the 
critical period for learning to eliminate outdoors, it takes between 8 
and ten months to retrain, but it can be done.


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## Mirafi (Aug 1, 2012)

Dave, when you say "missed the critical period" are you saying that 11 weeks is past the critical period?

Also, I have the ex pen as described in my post. Her crate which she sleeps in is in the pen and I will make up another bed in the pen if you think that will help....not sure how to get beds up off the floor but I'll figure out something.

I'll go ahead and cover the entire floor with pee pads but I'll also say that she likes to tear them up and play with them so I'm not sure how effective that's going to be.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

they learn at a few weeks to prefer a certain substrate ., depending on the breeder. Once they are homed ,they should be well on their way by eight or nine weeks; Once they start indiscriminate eliminating it really is harder. tape em down if you can, .


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## Alexa (Jun 17, 2007)

I agree with Dave that the breeder makes a huge difference...naturally they do NOT want to pee where they sleep etc.,but if they are forced to early on, it gets to be not such a big deal, so it will take a lot longer to retrain them.

That said...some dogs do learn quicker and some are slower. Bigger dogs will train MUCH faster than small dogs. 

Taking her out every hour may not be nearly enough. When we were training Marley, we literally needed to have an eye on him at ALL times when he was out of the ex-pen. And we took him out after play, after food, after drink, after nap, after any other excitement and every 20 minutes otherwise to start. And yes, I am not exaggerating. It still took him about 6 months to fully "get it". He never pooped inside the house, somehow that was something he only wanted to do outside from the get go. And it took a few times of catching him "in the act" and then reacting accordingly that he made the connection. 
I honestly didn't even expect any real results until about 16 weeks, which is where we started having some better results. 

So be patient, she truly is a baby right now and with everything else, she just needs a lot of patience and understanding. It's like dealing with a human toddler...potty training only really starts working at a certain age and then they are still all different.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

At this age, their metabolism is flying. You can feel how fast their heart is beating. I don't think there is any kind of time schedule that will work to just go by without watching closely. You have to watch for the signals. They always give some indication that they have to go, but they can be VERY subtle.

The worst habit for them to develop is to let it fly any kind of way and not have to hold it for even one step. You have to go back to a size that works for her to be confined to. I'd start with an expen folded in to 2x4 with the bed on one end. You may even have to put some sort of box in one end to take up part of the space. This is what our pups go into for the second stage at 4 1/2 weeks. Find the thread on our potty training system in pictures and keep going back until you find the size that works. 

You are not only having to teach the proper habit, but you have to eliminate the already learned bad habits.

We had two 11 week olds here this morning, but one left today, and the last will leave tomorrow. He has had the run of the house since 3:30 this afternoon and not had one accident. He will most likely have a few in his new home, because he's going to a new dog owner, but he'll get it pretty quickly. It really does take experience, but unfortunately yours is going to come in a real intense period for a while ahead.

I wish you and the pup very good luck.


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## Mirafi (Aug 1, 2012)

I'll change her ex-pen to a 2x4 right away.

As for signals, do you think that starting bell training makes sense? I could start by ringing the bell when we go out the door and after a couple days maybe move the bell into her ex pen?


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## angiern2004 (Apr 24, 2011)

If you're going to bell train, leave them by the door. Hit them with her paw on the way out the door every time. Your goal is for her to ring those when she's out of her expen, out about in the house, to tell you. 

As for the other parts of what Dave and Tom said, they are truly the experts in this department. Listen to every ounce of what they tell you. As far as what I learned from my experience with Trooper is that I gave him too much space too soon, and he took a bug backslide at around 14 weeks. It was kind of a nightmare, but after I figured out where I went wrong, I corrected it and he got back on track. Don't make the expen huge (I think you fixed that up already, huh?) and don't let your pup have access to a hugggggge space when out and about. Certainly keep her under your constant watch, but don't allow her to have roam of the whole main floor of your house while out. It'll make it easier for you to watch, catch, and haul butt outside. Then, only after she is 100% reliable on the pad in the expen for a goooood while, SLOWLY make the expen bigger. And when she's 100% reliable in one room (meaning you catch her signals and take her out so there are no accidents) then SLOWLY allow more room to roam when out and about. THIS is the advice I learned from digging up old threads here when I had a freak out "what is going wrong here" "he'll never get it" moment. It was all me. After he was starting to get it I gave too much space too soon AND expected him to get to his pad. Wrong and wrong. Luckily I figured it out real quick before his accidents became habits. 

And on top of it, they go thru growth spurts around 13 weeks, and it seems like they go out super often for a little bit of tinkle each time for a little while. During this time they seem to forget all the know about potty training, so be forewarned that it may seem like she backslides in a few weeks. 

BUT then one day it just will click for her and you'll realize it's been a week without an accident, then longer. I can't even explain it. I swear Trooper just got it one say and we haven't had an accident since. Wish I could remember how long it's been. 

Ps, every hour is not nearly enough. For Trooper it was every 15 minutes of out and about time. I'd set a timer for 13 minutes and take him. Not even kidding. 

Hang in there!!! It'll happen!!! Promise!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

At this point, the most important thing is that she learns the habit to go on a proper surface. I don't think outside only is going to be successful for a good while. Bells wouldn't hurt, but small steps first.


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## Mirafi (Aug 1, 2012)

Thanks everyone, I made her ex-pen smaller, ordered a water bottle so that her water isn't on the pads, and am adjusting the schedule to take her out more often (3 flights of stairs from our apartment to the outside door...at least I'm getting a workout).

I also had a talk with my husband about curtailing her freedom when she's on play time loose in the house...the last 2 accidents have been in rooms we're not usually in with her during play time. Our apartment is essentially a long rectangle with a long twisty hall connecting 2 big rooms in the back and the front rooms, those familiar with old Chicago buildings know what I mean. So the hall is almost foreign territory for the most part. Running up and down the hall with her is fun (sorry, downstairs people) but probably leading her too much into temptation.

I also think I'm going to go ahead and buy a Ugodog to try and deal with the pee pad destroying issue...as it is right now I'm looking over there at her and she's like "wee! even more pee pads to destroy!" I originally hoped to get her to use a litter box with wood pellets but that seems like too much to ask right now. Going to see how it goes for the next few days and maybe order the Ugodog over the weekend, keeping the ex-pen small until she gets used to it. 

I'll worry about the bells later, one step at a time as you all are saying!

This is a tangent, but...I really wish that when researching a breed you came across more "negative" things...I don't mean that in the bad way but like for example let's take rottweilers, my last breed. People are so keen to rehabilitate the reputation of breeds like that and convince the world what amazing family pets they make (which they certainly can) that I'm noticing a definitive lack of realism in terms of the kind of OWNER such a headstrong breed needs to really have a success story. I spent a year rehabilitating my rescued rottie's aggression toward men, which probably could have been avoided from the start had she had an original owner who could handle her. They just sort of expected her to stay a teddy bear. 

And in terms of the Havanese, really I scoured the internet and it wasn't until I found this forum and actually did a search for it did I begin to realize that housetraining for these guys was going to be so much different from a big dog, and even more importantly after reading many of Tom's posts having a big "ah-ha" moment about how much a breeder can really help things along with early potty training. It's kind of a shocker for someone who's grown up with big dogs who as puppies you pretty much just show them where the door is and they know what's up. Never seemed to matter what the breeder was doing in terms of potty training before you got them (which in my experience is nothing).

What you DO read about everywhere you search, especially on breeder websites, is endless gushing about what great dogs they are...which they are...I just think all dog breeds and their prospective owners would be better served in the long run if people talked about the challenges as much as they did the fun stuff. I'm glad this forum is here, thanks for all the help.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

When the UgoDog comes, put a slightly used pad in it the first time, so she understands right away what it's for.


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## misstray (Feb 6, 2011)

Living in an apartment myself, I really appreciate the indoor potty system (I use Ugodog). I had actually planned on having him go outside because the idea of an indoor potty sort of grossed me out. I ended up getting it because I knew in the first few weeks he wouldn't be able to go outside to go until he was fully vaccinated. There are lots of unvaccinated pets here and lots of dogs just roaming around and I didn't want to risk it.

Now, I can't imagine trying to get my pup outside in time after seeing the first signs of having to go. I mean, the procedure involves: putting on shoes and possibly getting dressed, getting keys (so as to not lock yourself out of the building), putting collar/harness on pup and getting leash, then walking all the way outside. I'm pretty sure the pup couldn't hold it that long. It's a lot easier when you just have a door to open and put the pup outside. Sure that would work now that he's older, but it's just easier for him and me to have his Ugodog available. He goes potty on walks as well. 

A plus with an indoor system is that you can take it with you if you travel and your dog will know right away where to go. Brody can be funny about not wanting to go in new places, but whip out his Ugodog and he's right on it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mirafi said:


> ...
> And in terms of the Havanese, really I scoured the internet and it wasn't until I found this forum and actually did a search for it did I begin to realize that housetraining for these guys was going to be so much different from a big dog, and even more importantly after reading many of Tom's posts having a big "ah-ha" moment about how much a breeder can really help things along with early potty training. It's kind of a shocker for someone who's grown up with big dogs who as puppies you pretty much just show them where the door is and they know what's up. Never seemed to matter what the breeder was doing in terms of potty training before you got them (which in my experience is nothing).
> 
> What you DO read about everywhere you search, especially on breeder websites, is endless gushing about what great dogs they are...which they are...I just think all dog breeds and their prospective owners would be better served in the long run if people talked about the challenges as much as they did the fun stuff. I'm glad this forum is here, thanks for all the help.


I agree, it's important to know the good AND the bad. Fortunately, as far as Havanese are concerned,w e do have this forum, and for people (like me) who find it BEFORE they get their puppy, there is plenty of information on here, both about picking the right breeder and about the trials and tribulations of potty training.

I guess I didn't realize how much "longer" it took for Kodi to be reliable than it might have with a big dog, because I'd never HAD a big dog. We never had dogs as kids, and when I lived on a horse farm for several years before I got married, we had several dogs there, but potty training never crossed my mind. All the dogs lived outdoors, sheltering in the barn as needed.

I *DO* know from talking to many friends with other toy breeds that this is NOT Havanese specific, but little dog specific. I know MANY people with Yorkies, Malts and Chihuahuas that are NEVER trustworthy in the house, in their entire lives! Now, part of this is, I'm sure< the same thing that we see with Havanese... early upbringing. Most of the little dogs I know where bought on a "cute puppy" impulse at the local puppy mill broker, where they had had NO early potty training.

Kodi came to me already trained to the litter box. I won't say he never had an accident, but I will say that I could always blame myself for them. His accidents were a result of too much freedom or too little supervision too early. That said, I think for the first 2 years, though he had no accidents to speak of after puppyhood, it was largely because we knew HIS schedule, and took him out at appropriate times. He was past two before he started asking to go out on his own.

I have a theory about the difference between little dogs and big dogs in this department. I think a big dog understands that the "whole house" is his "den" much faster than a little dog. To a little dog, the average house is HUGE!!! You might as well let a Guinea Pig loose in the house as the average Havanese puppy! The concept that this WHOLE SPACE is "den" and therefore not a place that you want to soil seems to take a lot longer. After the stage when they CLEARLY understand not to soil in the areass where they usually lie and play, many people find that they will "sneak off" and use a spare bedroom, or the dining room... it seems any room that is not used regularly by the family. *I* think that what is actually happening here is that the puppy recognizes those "family spaces" as "den", but has a hard time differentiating that those less-used spaces are also important to us human-type family members!

We did have a period where Kodi was absolutely reliable on the first floor, but had to be gated off from going upstairs, or else supervised closely up there. Otherwise he twice tried to use my older son's room (he was away at college, so the room was unused) as a potty spot. We kept him COMPLETELY out of the upstairs for many months after that. Then we started having him up there only when he was with us. I also made a point of sprinkling his kibble around on the floor of that room when he was up there with us, so he started to value that room as part of HIS territory. I'm happy to say that whether it was more exposure with his family, or the kibble or both, he is now reliable everywhere in the house.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

consistency is key; yeah bells are fine once the training is learned. You can't count on bells, it's fine later. Once trained you should have lots of signals that they can display. Molly has seven. lol


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## angiern2004 (Apr 24, 2011)

7??? Lol. 

Trooper has one...stand by the door and stare at me. Hehehe. Well, that's besides the zoomies that preceed poops.


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## marlowe'sgirl (Jun 17, 2010)

One thing that helped me is making sure that they NEVER have an accident in the wrong place from here on out. Most of that is super-vigilance on your part. No unsupervised playtime (and unsupervised means you aren't the least bit distracted like cooking dinner). If they don't have the chance to pee in the wrong place (and for me it was really like 2 months before I trusted him unsupervised - even though he didn't have an accident really after week 2 - i was paranoid), they will only associate the allowed place as the pee spot. A lot of this is using that "Eh" noise if you see him squat and pick up and run out to the right spot (I did outdoor only training).


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## marlowe'sgirl (Jun 17, 2010)

krandall said:


> We did have a period where Kodi was absolutely reliable on the first floor, but had to be gated off from going upstairs, or else supervised closely up there. Otherwise he twice tried to use my older son's room (he was away at college, so the room was unused) as a potty spot. We kept him COMPLETELY out of the upstairs for many months after that. Then we started having him up there only when he was with us. I also made a point of sprinkling his kibble around on the floor of that room when he was up there with us, so he started to value that room as part of HIS territory. I'm happy to say that whether it was more exposure with his family, or the kibble or both, he is now reliable everywhere in the house.


This!! I didn't un-babygate the 2nd floor until my pup was 2 yrs old. I like your whole theory, Karen. Limited freedom is key!


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## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

You have gotten great advise and you seem to be in the right track now.
Both mine came potty trained (litter), I switched one to pee pads right away and he took to it right away, the other I stick with the wood pellets. It took months (not 1 or 2, but more) to be reliable but it happened. 

Selecting an experience breeder who helps them in the potty training process is a great advantage. I will always be greatful for all the knowledge I found on this website. Even now, 3+ years after joining, I still visit regularly.

Patience and consistency are the key here. Keep it up and don't give up!


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## Mirafi (Aug 1, 2012)

It's been 5 days now since I changed her ex-pen to a 2x4...should I increase the size now or leave it the size it is and take away one pad, or is that too soon and I should just continue on for more time with the pen as a 2x4 and the pads completely covering the floor? 

I've become more hyper-vigilant when she's out for play time and also increased the amount of times I'm taking her out. She's only had one accident in 5 days and the funny thing is I was playing with her while sitting on the floor 2 feet away from her and she sort of stopped what she was doing and just looked at me for a second and the thought did flash through my mind...maybe she has to go...and then she squatted. Obviously my fault but still kind of worried me that she didn't even look at the pads in the ex-pen right next to us (though they were unavailable because they were in the pen).

So the next day I decided to tether her to me in the kitchen as I was making dinner and I placed a pee pad nearby...I wanted to see what would happen. She went on the pee pad 

So I'm thinking maybe the connection is being made but unless the option is right there under her nose she says "oh well" and goes. Progress?


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Sounds like you are doing great! Enlarge the pen when you think she's ready. If it doesn't work, downsize back to where it was working for another couple of days. To go up from the 2x4, make it an L shape. Put the bed in the end of one branch of the L, and a pad around the corner. Don't cover the floor with the pads. If she turns the corner to find the pad several times, move it to the end of the other L. You want her to go to the pad, not just let it go where she is. You have to get them to hold it for a few steps, and then more steps, as they are learning control. It sounds like she is making good progress in finding the right surface. Now we want her to take more and more steps to get to the right surface.


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## BennyBoy (Apr 25, 2012)

krandall said:


> After the stage when they CLEARLY understand not to soil in the areass where they usually lie and play, many people find that they will "sneak off" and use a spare bedroom, or the dining room... .


 Yup - if Benny needs to poop and is given full run of the house, he loves nothing more than to poop in my dining room.

I like your theory... our house is big and Benny has a pretty big world inside of it, but not the whole house.

Benny is great about asking to go out - he sits by the back door and waits, and he will bark if we don't realize he is waiting.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Every puppy shoould come with a label that says, " I am hard to potty train, hope you have the patience for it."


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

Luciledodd said:


> Every puppy shoould come with a label that says, " I am hard to potty train, hope you have the patience for it."


lol, instead they come with a label that says, "I AM CUTE"!!!


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## sunnydays (Aug 22, 2012)

How has the potty training been going, any progress?


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## angiern2004 (Apr 24, 2011)

I keep hoping for an update on how it's going, mirafi.


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## Mirafi (Aug 1, 2012)

*Update*

Ok so here's the latest...

I increased the ex pen size from the 2x4 to the L shape. All had been going well with her going on the pad. We hadn't had any accidents as I have been watching her like a hawk and limiting her time outside the pen to short periods when I know for sure her bladder is empty.

I got the Ugodog 2 days ago and put it in the same spot the pee pad was, with a pee pad on top of the grate. She seemed not to care about the change and has peed twice on it.

Last night though I started wondering if her using the pad and Ugodog was more a product of the location of the pad than her actually choosing to go there...let me explain...

The ex pen is in the main room we spend the most time in, which is a rectangle shape. Naturally there is one side of the ex pen that is "closer" to us, and that is the side she is constantly wanting to be at. If I put her crate in that spot she pushes it around to get closer to us and sometimes gets stuck between it and the pen. So, I've had her pee pad on that side.

Today I decided to test her by leaving the side "closest" to us open, with the crate across from it and the pad around the corner of the L.

Sure enough she peed on the wood floor, right in front of her crate and next to her water bowl, totally not even attempting to make the pee pad. This has been what now? 2 weeks? She doesn't even try to make it?  

To add to my frustration, this morning after we went for her morning bathroom and she peed, pooped, we came in and I gave her one of her puzzle feeders she especially likes while I made coffee and got ready to take her for a long walk. She seemed to be completely occupied with the puzzle toy (outside of the ex pen- she had just gone out and both peed and pooped) so I sat down to check my email, taking my eyes off her for less than 2 minutes (I managed to read one email). I looked over to where she was because I suddenly didn't hear her pushing the puzzle around and there she is, pooping. No attempt to warn me, nothing. Just stopped what she was doing stood right next to the food toy and went.

She's 13 weeks old now.

So now what? Take the ex pen down AGAIN to a 2x4? I'm getting frustrated all over again.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Yes, go back the the 2x4 and try again. I'd wait at least 3 days to enlarge it again. When you can't watch her, for any amount of time-including checking email or answering the phone, she goes back in the expen. Next time when she's out of the expen, put the Ugodog out within 6 feet of where she is and see if she will go to it. This is not going to be a quick fix. This is not merely training, but retraining, since she has learned the wrong habits.


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## Mirafi (Aug 1, 2012)

Actually I have a question regarding the ex pen and maybe this seems like a silly question at this point but I find myself wondering...what exactly is the point of the ex pen? I have never used them with my other dogs and when I crate trained it was literally- in the crate for an hour, out to pee, if pee then yay! playtime, then back in the crate for an hour, if no pee, then back in the crate for 20 minutes, then out again, repeat. 

When I was originally told I should get an ex pen I assumed it was so that she could learn to use an indoor option as well but honestly I really think that every dog is different and for my pup this may not be the best way to do things at this time.

When I saw she had peed on the wood floor I couldn't help but look at her, puzzled, and when she looked back at me call me crazy but I got the distinct feeling that she was puzzled too...as if she just does not understand what it is I want. I think she needs a very clear definition of "this is the one and only place you go". Yes, I want her to be able to use an indoor option which I think would be a godsend when it's freezing out or when I'm traveling, but I really want it to be the exception, not the rule. I want the rule to be outside.

Tom if you think this is an awful idea then please let me know but my instincts are screaming at me to do away with the ex pen for now and go to strictly crate training.

Thoughts welcome!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

If you want her to use an indoor option, I don't see how you can do it without her taking some number of steps to get to the desired surface. The expen limits the space that she has. The small setup is so she can leave her bed area and have the correct place to go. Once she has that number of steps down, the number of steps is gradually increased as long as she is successful. If you go too far, you have to go back to what last worked for a while.

When you use a crate she is either in it and has to hold it, or out under your control. I think it's more for outside only training. If you want the inside option, she has to have the correct habit ingrained long enough that it becomes what's normal for her without her having to think about it.

Right now, she came with the habit of just letting it go any kind of way. We start them at 3 weeks because before that their Mother has been cleaning them up. They have the instinct to leave their bed to eliminate, but it's easily lost if the opportunity is not taken advantage of at the earliest age. Probably until they are a year old, they don't think about what's the right thing to do, it's all habit. What you are doing is instilling new habits. It's much more complicated than training to do a specific behavior, like sit or down, because eliminating is something they all HAVE to do. It's not really a behavior, it's a function.

The hardest thing for people to understand is that they don't use any reasoning about it, at least not for a long time-any of them.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Well said Tom. Just want to add. To get them to use the pads, you have to make it next to impossible to miss. Give them a while and slowly remove one at a time until they choose that surface. Yep if they miss, go back a step. so they can't miss. Hang tough. You'll get there.


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## angiern2004 (Apr 24, 2011)

Trooper was about that age when I thought he got it enough to expect him to find the paper every time. Big mistake on my part. They can't be expected to get back to the paper in a large area. In the expen, yes. But that time that you tested him by leaving the expen open and expected him to find the paper while out and about, no. You pretty much quadrupled(?) his living space from what he was mastering...maybe more depending on how much room space you gave him...that's too big of a space for him to master at that age. That's the time when you'll still have to take her out yourself. 

That's also about the age where they go thru a growth spurt or something and they tend to act like they forgot everything, and on top of that, go 47 thousand times a day. Definitely the time to keep them wrangled in. 

Hang in there! It gets better, promise!


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

We're still working on it - Jinx is 8 months old.


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## Mirafi (Aug 1, 2012)

angiern2004 said:


> But that time that you tested him by leaving the expen open and expected him to find the paper while out and about, no. You pretty much quadrupled(?) his living space from what he was mastering...maybe more depending on how much room space you gave him...that's too big of a space for him to master at that age. That's the time when you'll still have to take her out yourself.


Actually it's the opposite, she's going on the wood floor when in the (small) ex pen, but when OUT of the ex pen and tethered to me with a pee pad nearby she trots right on over to it and uses it. It's in the ex pen that she won't take 2 steps to use it, not out of the ex pen.

In any case, I've decided to do what I probably should have done in the first place and that's crate housetrain her to go only outside. If that means I can't ever get her to use an indoor option in the future then so be it! The very thought of potentially having a full grown dog that goes whenever she want and when she does she _might_ seek out her specified potty or she might just use a nearby cushion or rug is like a bucket of cold water over my head. I'll stick with the method I know for a fact works, even if it can be an inconvenience in snow and rain. Luckily we're only in Chicago for a year and then we'll be back in warmer climates.

It's a shame all breeders can't be like Tom and get their pups started on indoor options before they even leave for their new homes, rather than just letting them let loose wherever, but it is what it is and we work with what we've got.


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## mayadevi (Sep 24, 2012)

Hi, Maya's story is exactly like yours. But hang in there, there's hope. I started exactly like you but with a U shaped playpen. Litter tray, with paper under the grid and no grass on top ( she was chewing it off) was on the inside doorway of bathroom and crate on the outside wall of bathroom. She did poo on litter tray without fail but peed only sometimes on tray. Mostly she would smell the tray at the edge and go on the floor. I realised it was not confined space that worked but space for her to do a bit of sniffing around before pee and doing her circles before poo. So leaving the crate where it was i moved the tray to the far end of bathroom, still a playpen/room but with more space for her to sniff around. It worked. Now her peeing is mostly on the tray with only one accident about couple of days on the floor near the tray. It was absolute vigilance that paid off. First 2 weeks I kept physically turning her body to the tray whenever she moved back. After she got the idea I stood by the doorway pointing at the tray giving her the potty word. She gets her freedom around the house only after she eliminated. That gives her a good 30 to 45 mins before she gets marched off to the tray. If she doesn't go then will put her in the crate. She barks only if she needs to go when in the crate. I never take off my eyes while she's free in the house. If she so much as sniff or look up at me, off she is taken to the tray. Because she loses her freedom she never so much as goes near the bathroom direction where her playpen is. I've put a gate to her playpen so that eventually when it comes off she can walk inside the bathroom on her own. I even took tray outside on the patio and she eliminated on it without so much as a cue from me.

Today I hit jackpot. She did her usual sniffing and actually went into the bathroom on the tray but came off it without peeing. But when I took her back she eliminated. 

She is now 19 weeks. Took me a month on the expanded playpen/bathroom concept before she headed in that direction today.


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