# How much is too much itching ? And when do they loose their puppy hair?



## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Maddie is being treated for itching. Her skin was very dry and flakie. We shampoo her with a conditioning shampoo. She is being treated as a precaution for mites and is taking hydroxzine for her skin. 
We noticed her itching from the first day home. I have never seen a flee and I guess you don't see mites her ears have been fine. She is much better after the last treatment although I don't know if it was mite medication or the hydroxzine that has made her feel better.
I am concerned because she has lost alot of hair on her back and down her legs.I did cut about 12 mats out but not to the extent of all the hair loss. Can she be just loosing her puppy coat she is only 4mo old. I am hoping when I stop giving her the hydroxine she won't go back to itching so much that her skin got so bad. 
SO HOW MUCH IS TOO MUCH ITCHING AND IS 4M0 TO SOON TO LOOSE HER PUPPY COAT?
I'm worried I have included a photo of her and her hair loss.


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## Feisty (Nov 20, 2009)

Not sure if this will help but....Ari started to chew himself around his back legs and tail right around the time he was neutered. He kept it up until he had bald patches and his tail looked like a little pink stick. The vet couldn't find anything (mites, fleas, mange) and we tried anti-anxiety pills and anti-inflammatories for allergies. Neither worked. We tried shampoos, tea tree oil sprays, keeping him extra clean, letting him get dirtier. Nothing worked. Eventually he slowed down the incessant chewing and his hair started to grow back. Now he's 14 months old and his fur and tail look great. He still starts everyday with a big chew-fest but his hair no longer comes out (I am starting to suspect the baby teeth were too sharp and his adult teeth don't have the same effect on his oh so soft cottony fur.)
Good luck with your little one. I know it looks awful and people stop to comment but it went away and is just a bad memory now for us.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I've never heard of a Havanese blowing coat anywhere near four months old. Could it be an allergy to the food he's eating?


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Thanks Judy,
Your feisty is very cute! For awhile I was thinking Maddie is grooming herself and her teeth are very sharp. I'm hoping it is not a alergic reaction to something.


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

Suzi, that much coat loss is not normal and she shouldn't be blowing coat for another 3 - 4 mos. at least. Since you've already gone to the vet maybe you could call them and ask if any of these he diagnosed can cause such extensive hair loss. Please keep us posted. Hopefully, whatever it is will be cleared up soon and the hair will come back in.


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

What color is her skin where she is itchy? 

My old dog had seasonal allergies. There were a couple of weeks in the spring and fall, he would go nuts and chew himself silly. At the start of it, his skin would look speckly and the dots would connect and be pinkish, mostly in the groin area. 

The brand of food he ate has a herring/sweet potato version. I would add a 5 lb bag to every 30 lb of other varieties. The fish helped. Also, during the itchy season, I gave fish oil pills. It seemed to work. And his hair was soooo shiny and soft.


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## baileyandenzo (Nov 3, 2010)

Bailey is treated for Allergies and Itching, he takes a pill every other day (atopica) and also is on a diet that contains no wheat or grain (Blue Wilderness), the combination of the two has stopped him from itching completely. He used to itch his face so much he was making cuts by his eyes


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

for some reason I have been having trouble responding. I type and push reply and it says I'm not signed in. I sign in and my post is gone. fish oil yes! color of skin still pink she seems better. hope it was mites


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Suzi, first I just want to say how adorable Maddie is. Has her back end been shaved or is that all from just falling out? She kind of looks like a portugese water dog. I really hope your vet hit it on the nail with mites and/or fleas. But if it continues ask your vet about sabaceous adonitis. Often referred to as SA. You can do a search here on the forum I know it has been discussed. and here is a link to a breeder who has a page about it and is very involved in research. http://janizonahavanese.com/SA.html I know if you wrote Janet she could answer a lot of questions.

Don't let this scare you, just keep it as info in case you need it.

Good luck and please keep us posted on Maddie.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

*Iching*

I have been reading a lot about skin disorders . So fare she does not fit the discriptions of most of them. Allergies would be more like it.Although she has been treated now for over a week and seems much better. 
I was to talk to the vet yesterday to tell her how she is and I wanted to try to find out what is to much itching. Right now she only itches about once every half hour for only about 3 seconds. is that too much?
We are cutting down the pill to one a day and calling back on friday. I have no idea if it is the pill or the treatment fo little ickey mites.
She said yes her hair could come out from all the irritation. And said the fish oil 1/2 pill aday would be good for her dry skin.
I hope it is just the little ichie mites. PS the vet said it is not mange


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Feisty said:


> Not sure if this will help but....Ari started to chew himself around his back legs and tail right around the time he was neutered. He kept it up until he had bald patches and his tail looked like a little pink stick. The vet couldn't find anything (mites, fleas, mange) and we tried anti-anxiety pills and anti-inflammatories for allergies. Neither worked. We tried shampoos, tea tree oil sprays, keeping him extra clean, letting him get dirtier. Nothing worked. Eventually he slowed down the incessant chewing and his hair started to grow back. Now he's 14 months old and his fur and tail look great. He still starts everyday with a big chew-fest but his hair no longer comes out (I am starting to suspect the baby teeth were too sharp and his adult teeth don't have the same effect on his oh so soft cottony fur.)
> Good luck with your little one. I know it looks awful and people stop to comment but it went away and is just a bad memory now for us.


I just wanted to comment on the tea tree oil. I am not sure if this is true but we have a neighbor who was using tea tree oil on their dog only find out it was toxic. their lab mix had a seizure. And then the owner did her own research online and found some scary things. We all know that you can't trust everything you read on-line but I thought it was worth posting a caution here since it was mentioned. I did a quick search and found some things that would make me think twice about using it. even though I know it is in many dog products. here is one article I found that sounds what happened to our neighbors dog.

http://sheltienation.com/2009/03/did-you-know-tea-tree-oil-is-toxic-to-dogs.html


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

Isn't mange caused by a certain type of mite? If he eliminated mange, wouldn't he have eliminated the other mite types, too? Did he do skin scraping tests?

sigh... I am so not a medical type.


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## Feisty (Nov 20, 2009)

Thanks for the info Missy. I did a quick Google search. One for tea tree oil for itchy dogs and there are all kinds of recommendations and another for "Is tea tree oil dangerous for dogs?" and got lots of "put it in their ears but not where they can lick it off". It appears it is as useful to dogs as it is to people but not if they ingest it. It can be toxic!

I was using a wholistic spray which has tea tree oil in it and you can smell it. My dog hated the smell so much he wouldn't go near that end of himself but not sure how much ingesting he did as the smell dissipated. I rarely used it when I got it and only for severe non-stop chewing but haven't used it since so I'm not worried about my dog but others who might douse their dogs in tea tree oil after my comments might be endangering their dogs. 

I think more research needs to be done. 
Thanks for the eye-opener


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## onemoreokie (Jul 21, 2009)

I didn't know anything about tea trea being toxic either. We've used it for the past four months for constant paw biting/chewing and it has been miraculous. This is the product:

www.petco.com/product/7149/Vet's-Best-Hot-Spot-Itch-Relief-Spray-for-Dogs.aspx

It doesn't take much just one or two spritzes on each paw and she leaves her feet alone for hours. Wonder how much one would have to injest to be toxic? We haven't noticed any side effects and I much prefer this to the meds the vet prescribed that made her groggy all day.


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## rdanielle (Sep 2, 2008)

Espana has antiseptic line: shampoo, conditioner & spray you might look into. 
http://www.espanaproducts.com/products-dog-cat.php


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

*Mange and tea tree oil*

I think Mange is a infestation of the little mites. I asked Maddies vet and she said it is different then just having mites. I know if a pup gets mange you are never suppose to breed them. It means they have a compromise immune system that can be pasted down. Maddie arrived to us with a itch and the vet did a scraping and saw no signs. Her condition got worse and her skin looked worse so she did another scraping and saw nothing. She treated her because she said even if you do not see signs do not mean they aren't their and it is a treatable problem.
Last week when her skin was worse I try ed grooming her with a product called perfect coat she acted like it stung her so again I cut out more mats. I was a nail tech for over 10 years and I used tea tree oil on clients for toe nail fungus and and bad heals. I have thought I might try it I read pros and cons . I I decided to add the fish oil first because her skin seems so much better but she still has what I call dandruff


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

*Maddies Mom and Dad*

Hi Linda this is a picture of Maddies Mom And Dad. Hope it comes threw.


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## Feisty (Nov 20, 2009)

Okay I spoke too darn soon! Ari is back to chewing his fur again. I have figured it out this time,though. It started after a few days of really cold weather but got worse on the super cold weather. He was awake all night chewing and scratching and kept it up for days. I thought it was food related but it coincided exactly with dry cold (we live on the West Coast of Canada and it's rarely dry cold here.) My lips are chapped and the heat is on all the time now and the itching came on with all of that. 

So, what I've done is bath him, condition him & leave it on a while, then spray his damp fur with a natural dog coat conditioning spray oil and rub that in. I also lubricate his kibble with warm water and a bit of olive oil. I give him a peanut butter kong every couple of days to work on and I spray him daily with the spray on his dry fur and rub it in. I think I'm lubricating him inside and out. He's sleeping almost thru the night again and is able to focus on other things. I would say it is under control but then it snowed and warmed up and started raining so we're back to damp and that helps him too. It's supposed to be a really cold snowy winter here this year so I'm expecting a lot of itching. Ugh. 
Judy


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I just wanted to check on you and Maddie? how is her itching and hair loss? did you and the vet figure out the cause?


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

She was treated for Mites and given pills to stop the itch after a week and a half on the pills I took her off and she itched again. I was about ready to change her diet and also bring up to the vet about the possibility of SA when I added fish oil to her diet. She improved over night and has only itches very seldom. It could have been mites and her skin was so irritated from itching the vet said more than likely her hair loss was from that. I am concerned that it does not seem to be growing back very fast and am going to take her in to find out if she knows why And ask about the SD I cant remember right now what SD stands for its a gland I think that does not produce enough oil or sweat.
I beginning to think that she might have a weird gen that she is half short haired and half long. Somewhere I read about the dogs Havanese derived from their was one that kings and queens had and they were always shown with their back end clipped short and the front long. I would love to find the name of that breed and studie it. Maybe somewhere she has some of whatever that breed was in her genetics. I know I am weird
Thank you for checking back that is sweet of you:hug:


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

poor maddie, poor you. Puppyhood has enough new things going on without mysterious ones. Amazing that the fish oil worked so fast. But don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

You are thinking of SA (not SD) sabaceous adonitis.

here is a link to a breeder who has a page about it and is very involved in research. http://janizonahavanese.com/SA.html I know if you wrote Janet she could answer a lot of questions.

not only can Janet be of help to you, but if Maddie does have it (which it is rare for it to show so young, so that should make you feel better) but sharing Maddie's testing (if you go there) could help researchers understand SA better.

but it sounds like you probably have it under control. give the hair time.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Thank you , I did write her but it was a different email address I never got a response Glad to have a new one. I will look into finding out


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

Missy is right - hair does take a long time to grow back in! Maddie is definitely not a short-hair Hav. If you see a picture of one you can definitely tell that is NOT Maddie! The fish oil sure can't hurt so I would keep that up if I were you.


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## LuckyOne (Sep 3, 2009)

So glad things are better. My boys also do some itching and I'm going to try the fish oil. Do you break a little capsule in their food? Daily? Please keep us posted. Everyone is so helpful on this forum. I love it!


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Yes you can brake a capsule or I bought some in a bottle and give her 1/4 teaspoon a day. My vet said for her weight at that time she was 5.5lbs only 1/2 capsule so that was hard found the liquid fish oil at a farm store. Thank you for caring about my Maddie.:grouphug:


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