# Havana Silk Dog - Who has one?



## Beamer

Hey all..

Was just wondering who has or is getting a Havana Silk Dog?

Just curious, as I would love to see some puppy pics of thee guys! Also, I'm entrigued to know if the coat is much easier to maintain than the Havanese coat. (Was and wear?) Although, when Beamer swims and air dries, his coat has turned out great, without any brushing at all! I have never actualy air dryed him after a real bath though...

Thanks!
Ryan


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## LuvMyHavanese

Both Dreamer & Tripp are considered 'Havana Silk' & are registered with the HSDA(per my breeders request because she bred Dreamer). Jax is a rescue Hav so i doubt he is. I do not have any puppy pics of Dream because i got her when she was 6 yrs old. 

Tripps coat was a breeze when he was a pup but he going thru the 'blowing coat' stage & he was matting like crazy but it is getting better(he is 15 months old). Dreamers coat is pretty easy to maintain if you groom regularly. WHen its warm out i let them air dry also.


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## Missy

oh boy Ryan, do you really know what can of worms you are opening up with this question???? I don't think either of my boys are HSD--- but so far 10 month old Cash has been wash and wear! (his tail stands higher too- but his legs are short and he is big boned) Jasper is a nightmare to keep mat free.


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## Sunnygirl

Nico is registered with HSDAA (as well as with AKC as a Havanese). He was just born this spring and his entire litter was registered. His coat is pretty wash and wear, but he's only 5 months old and still has his puppy coat. Although he rarely has a mat right now, who knows what will happen when he blows coat? I also don't know how he conforms to the HSDAA standard, although I think he's absolutely gorgeous.


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## LuvMyHavanese

Dont ask me what the standards are. I really dont want to know. Legs, tail, ears, muzzle. It all gives me a headache(can you tell i know nothing about showing dogs! ). I just love my babies & I too think they are just gorgeous!!


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## Beamer

LoL.. not trying to open any cans of worms or any other sort of creatures... lol

I'm sure there are many Hav owners on here that are considering an HSD for a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th puppy.. lol

Oh yeah... any health issues ever arise for any of your HSD's?

Thanks!
Ryan


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## Janet Zee

Bacci is an HSD, registered with the HSDAA and also with the AKC as a Havanese. Our breeder suggested we do so since both his parents are HSD's and registered AKC Havanese.

Bacci is 16 weeks old.


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## Missy

wow, I am surprised that so many of you have registered HSD's. cool.


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## Melissa Miller

You know, you can get a feel what they look like by looking a lot of the dogs here on the site. The difference between the two is a piece of paper and someones opinion.


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## Paige

If a HSD is not a havanese, then how can they be registered as one. Isn't that like registering my lab as a golden retriever. 

If one parent is a HSD and one is a Havanese doesn't that make it a mix breed? Just a thought. eace:


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## Beamer

Melissa, yes that very well might be.. hehe
I have looked through some of the HSD breeder sights, and have not found to many differences. I think Greg's adult dogs on his site do look different somewhat in the face. They kind of do have a 'more elegant' look to them, but do not look as cute as the Havanese, in my opinion.. But many of the adult HSD's I've seen on other HSD sites do not look like Gregs dogs in the face, but more like the regular havanese...so... Who knows..

The one thing that is a BIG selling feature is deffinatly the wash and wear coat though, if its true... That would make life easier, thats for sure..


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## Beamer

Paige..

I think all HSD's are registred as Havs because they fit the standard aswell as their own HSD standard.


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## Paige

freeway1976 said:


> Paige..
> 
> I think all HSD's are registred as Havs because they fit the standard aswell as their own HSD standard.


No the HSD people say that their dogs are not Havanese, they have made a point of letting that be known. So I don't understand why they would register there dog as a breed it is not according to them. Very confusing. That's really talking in circles.


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## Beamer

Yeah, I agree with you on that... It is confusing. From what I read on one of the other HSD Vs Hav threads, there are still a couple HSD registered dogs competing in Havanese dog shows to...


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## Havtahava

All HSDs have to be Havanese. They are coming from the pool of dogs that are born Havanese. At this time, all of them are registered with AKC as Havanese.

I'm trying to think of a good analogy...
OK, how's this? My daughter is in her first year of college, so this one comes to me easiest.
All of the kids on her campus are college students, but only a small group are part of the Phi Kappa Beta* sorority. They have to be female college students to be in the sorority, but not all female college students will get in. Many females will qualify, but some won't try to get in and some won't be allowed. Consider the HSDAA to be the sorority. 

Does that help?

Your dog is not an HSD unless it is registered as such.

Down the road, the analogy may need to change if they get official breed status, but that fits it for the time being.

*Phi Kappa Beta are just three Greek letters that I put in random order. If there is a sorority by that name, I didn't mean anything by it.


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang

That's a very good and simple analogy! 

Wanda


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## SMARTY

Kimberly as always you came through with an analogy that all can understand.

One thing about coats in the HSD. I'm not at all sure their coats are all considered silk. I've seen some that do not have the shine or wash & wear look without a lot of work. Unless the breeders of the dogs I have seen have some as HSD and some as plain old Havanese.LOL


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## Sunnygirl

Havtahava said:


> All HSDs have to be Havanese. They are coming from the pool of dogs that are born Havanese. At this time, all of them are registered with AKC as Havanese.
> 
> I'm trying to think of a good analogy...
> OK, how's this? My daughter is in her first year of college, so this one comes to me easiest.
> All of the kids on her campus are college students, but only a small group are part of the Phi Kappa Beta* sorority. They have to be female college students to be in the sorority, but not all female college students will get in. Many females will qualify, but some won't try to get in and some won't be allowed. Consider the HSDAA to be the sorority.
> 
> Does that help?
> 
> Your dog is not an HSD unless it is registered as such.
> 
> Down the road, the analogy may need to change if they get official breed status, but that fits it for the time being.
> 
> *Phi Kappa Beta are just three Greek letters that I put in random order. If there is a sorority by that name, I didn't mean anything by it.


Oh cool! No one in my family has ever been in a sorority before. Of course, it's not so cool that my one MALE child is the one who made it into the sorority. :bounce:


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## irnfit

I would think that their maintenance would be the same. After all, they are Havanese with a different name, bred as a different "type". They come from the same stock.


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## irnfit

Janet, therein lies the problem. I am not criticizing you or your breeder. Tis is just a general remark as I see it. 

You can't have it both ways. It's either a Havanese or a Havana Silk Dog. If they can be cross registered, then why is there all this disension in the nfirst place. eace:


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## Greg

freeway1976 said:


> Melissa, yes that very well might be.. hehe
> I have looked through some of the HSD breeder sights, and have not found to many differences. I think Greg's adult dogs on his site do look different somewhat in the face. They kind of do have a 'more elegant' look to them, but do not look as cute as the Havanese, in my opinion.. But many of the adult HSD's I've seen on other HSD sites do not look like Gregs dogs in the face, but more like the regular havanese...so... Who knows..
> 
> The one thing that is a BIG selling feature is deffinatly the wash and wear coat though, if its true... That would make life easier, thats for sure..


Thanks for the nice words. The "wash and wear" coats come from being single coated rather than double coated. But it's kind of misleading in that you still have to groom your dog. Mats, however, don't pop up overnight like some people complain of.

We are breeding Dee Dee to Jake next week so when the puppies arrive I'll post some pictures.

I think the difference you see in my dog's faces come from their longer muzzles. You are right, Silk Dogs aren't cute.


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## juliav

Greg,

How are the personalities of the HSD compared to the Havanese. With a seemingly smaller gene pool, single, streighter hair, longer muzles, how has that effected their character?


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## Greg

My dogs don't act any differently


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## RedHeadedGator

I can vouch for Greg’s dogs. We’ve met them all and they have the same loving, sweet personalities as our Hav’s have. Heck, I’ve even threatened that I would steal Dee Dee from Greg if I could! (Anyone know where they keep their spare house key?) :biggrin1:


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## marjrc

Sunnygirl wrote: "Oh cool! No one in my family has ever been in a sorority before. Of course, it's not so cool that my one MALE child is the one who made it into the sorority."

*LMBO* You're a hoot!!

Great analogy, Kimberly. Makes sense to me!


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## Cheryl

Kimberly--it makes sense from here to refer to the HSDAA as a club (sorority), but I do not get the feeling that is how the HSDAA refers to themselves. Am I wrong?


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## Havtahava

Cheryl, I'm not involved enough to be totally certain, but I think you are right. I just tried to use that analogy to explain how they are still Havanese, but separate. I would expect that the HSDAA would refer to themselves in formation status of becoming a completely seperate breed. For now, they cannot _not_ be Havanese, but can still be HSD. Does that make sense? (I hate double negatives!)


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## JASHavanese

Greg said:


> Thanks for the nice words. The "wash and wear" coats come from being single coated rather than double coated. But it's kind of misleading in that you still have to groom your dog. Mats, however, don't pop up overnight like some people complain of.
> 
> We are breeding Dee Dee to Jake next week so when the puppies arrive I'll post some pictures.
> 
> I think the difference you see in my dog's faces come from their longer muzzles. You are right, Silk Dogs aren't cute.


Ellie is single coated and mats like crazy. Her coat change was the worst I've ever seen (as was one of her littermates) and going through coat change with a standard poodle in full coat was easier to take care of and that's really saying something :biggrin1: 
Did the hsd dogs drop BAER and hip checking in their standard for breeding? I need to go read their website again.
I'm kind of lost about the longer muzzle also. Bandit is from 2 hsd dogs and doesn't have a longer muzzle, but then again her dam is from a line that would flip over at being known as hsd so maybe that's why?
Lightning is from 2 hsd parents and doesn't have a single coat and is a dream to take care of.


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## Kathy

*except that.....*



Havtahava said:


> All HSDs have to be Havanese. They are coming from the pool of dogs that are born Havanese. At this time, all of them are registered with AKC as Havanese.
> 
> I'm trying to think of a good analogy...
> OK, how's this? My daughter is in her first year of college, so this one comes to me easiest.
> All of the kids on her campus are college students, but only a small group are part of the Phi Kappa Beta* sorority. They have to be female college students to be in the sorority, but not all female college students will get in. Many females will qualify, but some won't try to get in and some won't be allowed. Consider the HSDAA to be the sorority.
> 
> Does that help?
> 
> Your dog is not an HSD unless it is registered as such.
> 
> Down the road, the analogy may need to change if they get official breed status, but that fits it for the time being.
> 
> *Phi Kappa Beta are just three Greek letters that I put in random order. If there is a sorority by that name, I didn't mean anything by it.


Hmmm, except that you can only pledge to one sorority at a time and be committed to supporting only one (1).


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## Kathy

Kimberly,
Double negatives though do help at times, but can be tongue twisters.

The gene's inside HSD's are the same as the gene's in Havanese, however, since they are saying they are a new, different breed, with their own registry, they can no longer be called Havanese. Like twins, they have the same gene's but aren't called the same name. <grin>


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## Julie

I think all our havanese are havana silk dogs.
Kimberly had posted it before directly from the AKC.......
Havanese also known as Havana Silk Dog.

They need to use a name not already in use.Here's my analogy------who has 3 kids - all boys and names them all Billy?:brick:


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## irnfit

I heard this on my way to work this morning, and thought it was very interesting. It was a discussion about the Jewish holiday, Rosh Hoshanna. It is kind of like all Havs being descended from the original ones that were brought here.

The reason there are only two people in the bible who we are all descended from, is so that no one can claim to be better than anther.


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## Beamer

Ok, question... hehe

Why did the HSD break off from the Havanese? Was it for CD and better health and/or for the other standard and look that HSD wants? Because right now the HSD is going through the same thing as the Havanese where many of the dogs do not look alike. I really do not see many other HSD dogs on the HSD breeder websites that look to much like Gregs guys...


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## Greg

JASHavanese said:


> Did the hsd dogs drop BAER and hip checking in their standard for breeding?
> 
> but then again her dam is from a line that would flip over at being known as hsd so maybe that's why?
> QUOTE]
> 
> No need to go back and check. The HSDAA has not revised the health testing requirements.
> 
> You'd be surprised what dogs in her pedigree are registered with the HSDAA. I don't think making blanket statements like that are wise. Dottie is also one of the few dogs in her line that have CHIC numbers AND at the time she was put in, was the only dog in her line in the Egg Study and the TAMU research. Maybe other dogs are now in, but at the time she was the only one. So she's used to blazing new trails.
> 
> As for longer muzzles........I think each puppy I've produced has the appropriate muzzle length for a Silk Dog. The ratio is 4:3. When the phrase "longer muzzle" is used .... it is in reference to longer than the muzzle found on the maltese looking havanese.


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## Thumper

Julie said:


> I think all our havanese are havana silk dogs.
> Kimberly had posted it before directly from the AKC.......
> Havanese also known as Havana Silk Dog.
> 
> They need to use a name not already in use.Here's my analogy------who has 3 kids - all boys and names them all Billy?:brick:


I think that would make it SO much more simpler and less controversial. It seems most people are upset that the identity is trying to be "taken", when the reality is...the HSD is "blazing new trails".

I've seen alot of HSD in person, and they DO vary in looks and size, there is one that comes to mind, that is very big, like 15-20 lbs... However, some of those dogs are "companion" dogs, registered in the HSD. I think if a "new look" is acheived, it will take more time to breed the lines to what they want, and maybe the difference will be way more apparent a few years down the road.

I'm not sure about Gucci, I have no clue whether her coat is double or single, I'm thinking it is single because it is fairly low maintenance and very soft/silky.She's been looked over by an HSD breeder, and given "thumbs up", so to speak. The breeder thinks Gucci looks great, has a great bite, straight legs and proportioned well. Honestly, when she is standing right next to the breeder's dogs, I don't see a big difference? But that's just me. Gucci is on the small side, but she was the runt and a picky eater..Her eyes are very almond, and her muzzle is definately longer than a maltese, but I haven't measured it.

I think in a few years, we will have a better idea if the HSD will be accepted as a new breed, or remain an organization... I also think with time, the HSD folks that are still hanging around the Hav-folks, will gravitate more towards their organization and functions.

I also hope that both sides continue to work towards health and breeding out the health problems.

I have seen some "cute" HSDs. ound: I guess it depends on what your definition of cute is, ehh?

Kara


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## Gableshavs

I'm really curious, what kind of "new trails" are being blazed by the HSD?
Paula


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## Greg

Kara I think you are right. We all know the Havanese is a mixture of at least a couple of breeds. We are just choosing to express a different set of genes to produce a different looking dog. As time goes on Silk Dogs will look even more different than they do now, and the Havanese will probably be changing too. In 5 years we'll see similarities but that's all.


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## Lynn

JASHavanese said:


> Ellie is single coated and mats like crazy. Her coat change was the worst I've ever seen (as was one of her littermates) and going through coat change with a standard poodle in full coat was easier to take care of and that's really saying something :biggrin1:
> 
> Lightning is from 2 hsd parents and doesn't have a single coat and is a dream to take care of.


I was wondering if someone could explain to me what is a single coat and what is a double coat? How can we tell what a dog has? At what age can you tell? Do both coats get mats?


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## Julie

I hope in that time they come up with their own name........


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## irnfit

Kara, I agree. I hope that whatever outcome, that breeders will listen and take the health of this breed seriously. Like I have said before, my pups are still young, but I have not seen any problems healthwise. 

As far as type goes, I guess it's like buying shoes. I love flip flops and have a collection taking up 3 shelves in my closet. On vacation, I just bought 2 more pair. And like you, I don't see what the differences are. I have seen both types and there are differences in both types. I guess my eyes just need better training. 

I am also very curious to see what happens over time. How will this breed evolve. What happens if AKC doesn't agree with the HSDAA? What happens if the standards keep changing to please breeders? It is all very interesting.


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## Greg

This is from the AKC. I hope it helps.

Double coat An outer coat resistant to weather and protective against brush and brambles, together with an undercoat of softer hair for warmth and waterproofing. A dog with this type of coat can also be referred to as a double coat.


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## Melissa Miller

Ryan... there are two threads on this all and it explains why they broke off. 
Im sure you can find them both as they probably have the most replies/views of any others. 

As far as if these dogs act any different behavior wise, keep in mind, THEY WERE HAVANESE a few months ago. So unless they got depressed when they were told they are now HSD and NOT havanese, they are probably the same chipper Havs.


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## Greg

keep in mind recognition by the AKC isn't the ultimate goal for the HSDAA. Sure it's one of them.........but if the AKC doesn't recognize the Silk Dogs it's not going to change much. There are lots of other registries.........there are something like 400 breeds of dogs in the world and the AKC recognizes only like 150ish. 

Saving the Silk Dog from extinction by assimilation is a huge task unto itself.


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## Julie

Can you tell by the "poofy-ness" Greg?My dog gets wet and soaks it up like a sponge!He is not water-proof by a long shot---I almost have to wring him out after a bath!ound:

I think the "poofy-ness"of the body hair gives it away as a different-looking dog from pictures.Am I wrong here?


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## Havtahava

Julie said:


> Here's my analogy------who has 3 kids - all boys and names them all Billy?:brick:


Julie, ever hear of George Foreman? He has 10 children and 7 of them are named George, including 2 daughters. LOL!


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## Thumper

I think if the HSD is able to get the "look" they want, it will take 2-3 years. Maybe by then, it will be easier for people to really *see* the difference.

The confusion sets in when you start looking at websites and/or dogs registered now, that are "companion" dogs, or not breeding...but are owned by HSD breeders, or previously bred by them.

Is there some "leeway" with companion dogs being registered? And the breeding dogs are held to a bit more *stricter* standard, so to speak?

Are you coming to the fiesta here in VA beach?

Kara


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## irnfit

Melissa - LMAO!!!!!!!!!


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## Greg

Julie said:


> Can you tell by the "poofy-ness" Greg?My dog gets wet and soaks it up like a sponge!He is not water-proof by a long shot---I almost have to wring him out after a bath!ound:
> 
> I think the "poofy-ness"of the body hair gives it away as a different-looking dog from pictures.Am I wrong here?


Sometimes you can. Keep in mind there are 40 things that are evaluated.........so a "poofy coat" may not score as high but won't keep the dog out of the registry. When that dog is bred, the breeder will be trying for more of a "drop coat."

Sometimes the "poofy-ness" is because the coat is more cottony than silky. I think that SOMETIMES but not all the time the "double coat" is more a description of cottony rather than silky. I have at least one and possibly 2 dogs with a more cottony coat. Dottie has a silky head and tail but places on her body are more cottony.

This is why many of them still look similar. None of my dogs scored perfect scores so obviously they need some work. And what i WAS breeding for is not what I NOW will breed for.

It will take 2-3 more generations to get that distinct look described in the HSDAA Standard.


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## Greg

Melissa Miller said:


> Ryan... there are two threads on this all and it explains why they broke off.
> Im sure you can find them both as they probably have the most replies/views of any others.
> 
> As far as if these dogs act any different behavior wise, keep in mind, THEY WERE HAVANESE a few months ago. So unless they got depressed when they were told they are now HSD and NOT havanese, they are probably the same chipper Havs.


My dogs were depressed when other breeders told them they weren't havanese. They cheered up when we finally identified what they were.


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## Greg

Thumperlove said:


> I think if the HSD is able to get the "look" they want, it will take 2-3 years. Maybe by then, it will be easier for people to really *see* the difference.
> 
> The confusion sets in when you start looking at websites and/or dogs registered now, that are "companion" dogs, or not breeding...but are owned by HSD breeders, or previously bred by them.
> 
> Is there some "leeway" with companion dogs being registered? And the breeding dogs are held to a bit more *stricter* standard, so to speak?
> 
> Are you coming to the fiesta here in VA beach?
> 
> Kara


Kara,

Companion dogs arent' evaluated unless the owner wants to show them. So it's hard to say if they "have the right stuff." Dogs presented for evaluation as an Intact dog are strictly evaluated not only as a registration tool, but also as a breeding tool. Once you have that piece of paper you know where your dog is week and where it is strong. You can make decisions from that.

I don't think I can make the Fiesta/HSDAA Regional Specialty in VA Beach. I wish I could because I love so many people in that area.......but at the moment I can't swing the $$$$$$$$$$ (I'm in the mortgage business <grin>)


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## Gableshavs

I have seen dogs from Cuba, I live in Miami and we know many Cubans who bred and showed in Cuba, also very few ever saw a Havanese before the breed was reintroduced in 1990. From what I see the Cuban dogs have wavy coats and they are thick, not silky, like my hair gets when the humidity hits it. So where did this idea of a silk dog with a long single coat come from? 

My havanese has straight legs, she's health tested (BAER, heart, patellas, thyroid, CERF) but still needs hips when she turns 2. What makes her different from Greg's dogs? She has a white silky coat that stopped matting when her coat finally changed. That's all I can see. I'm not being negative, I really want to know. 

Please answer these two questions, I'd really love to hear your opinion.
Paula


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## Havtahava

Melissa Miller said:


> As far as if these dogs act any different behavior wise, keep in mind, THEY WERE HAVANESE a few months ago. So unless they got depressed when they were told they are now HSD and NOT havanese, they are probably the same chipper Havs.


 Oh sorry, but I think that is a very funny reply! :laugh:


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## irnfit

That is what I have with Kodi. Across his saddle, his hair is cottony. His tail is a silky plume. His chest is silky, but very wavy. Shelby is silky, straight with a slight wave. Kodi looks a lot like the Havs in the Portuondo book.


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## Julie

Greg said:


> Sometimes the "poofy-ness" is because the coat is more cottony than silky. I think that SOMETIMES but not all the time the "double coat" is more a description of cottony rather than silky. I have at least one and possibly 2 dogs with a more cottony coat. Dottie has a silky head and tail but places on her body are more cottony.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> That is how Quincy is too.His hair on his head and neck,chest,tail is more silky and shiny,but his hair on his back saddle area is more cottony/fuzzy to look at.He is as soft as can be(like picking up a soft cloud)but he has that "I think I need conditioner look" on his back.ound:


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## Gableshavs

Here is a link to a kennel in Cuba that shows the top ranking dogs. I can't see silkiness in their coats, perhaps you can clarify why these Cuban dogs do not look like the Havana Silks?
http://bichonhabanero.tripod.com/kennel.htm

Thanks for your help, it's appreciated.
Paula


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## Paige

Greg said:


> This is from the AKC. I hope it helps.
> 
> Double coat An outer coat resistant to weather and protective against brush and brambles, together with an undercoat of softer hair for warmth and waterproofing. A dog with this type of coat can also be referred to as a double coat.


Wouldn't it make sense that a dog from Cuba would have a double coat to protect it from the heat.


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## irnfit

Kimberly, I think we have the same type sense of humor. :biggrin1:


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## Julie

Havtahava said:


> Julie, ever hear of George Foreman? He has 10 children and 7 of them are named George, including 2 daughters. LOL!


ound:I rest my case!ound:
I don't know a sole who is normal and not needing a therapist who would do that.BIG EGO?Needing an evaluation?eace: ound:


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## Greg

Gableshavs said:


> I have seen dogs from Cuba, I live in Miami and we know many Cubans who bred and showed in Cuba, also very few ever saw a Havanese before the breed was reintroduced in 1990. From what I see the Cuban dogs have wavy coats and they are thick, not silky, like my hair gets when the humidity hits it. So where did this idea of a silk dog with a long single coat come from?
> 
> My havanese has straight legs, she's health tested (BAER, heart, patellas, thyroid, CERF) but still needs hips when she turns 2. What makes her different from Greg's dogs? She has a white silky coat that stopped matting when her coat finally changed. That's all I can see. I'm not being negative, I really want to know.
> 
> Please answer these two questions, I'd really love to hear your opinion.
> Paula


In a nutshell, the idea of a single drop coat that lays flat comes from the 1963 FCI Standard for the Bichon Habanero. Prior to their appearance in America or Europe, this is how their Standard described them. Since then it has been changed to describe the dog that is seen now. Maybe someone else has the info to tell us which Standard actually introduced the double coat.

I have no idea what makes your dogs different than mine. I don't know what your dogs look like. If you want to know more, visit www.havanasilkdog.com


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## Greg

reece said:


> Wouldn't it make sense that a dog from Cuba would have a double coat to protect it from the heat.


Then why didn't the 1963 FCI Standard call for a double coat? Double coats exisited in other breeds back then. Why did the coat start changing only after the breed was "saved?" And why did a new Standard have to be written rather than breeding to the one already in existance?


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## Gableshavs

I visited the site and I still cannot find an answer to these questions, that's why I'm taking the opportunity to ask this list.
Paula


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## Greg

Maybe this will help.

When the Cubans registered their native breed with the post-Revolutionary Cuban Kennel Club, back in 1991 or thereabouts, they used the 1963 FCI standard (which predated the acceptance of the Havanese in the AKC Toy Group by a full thirty-six years) to determine which dogs in Cuba qualified for registration as Bichon Habaneros. (Sort of like our evaluations- we in fact borrowed that idea from the Cubans.)

Then, without changing the essence of it, they fleshed that standard out, put it in FCI formatting and terminology, and submitted it to FCI in 1999. The FCI rejected it, claiming Cuba was not the country of origin for the breed and therefore had no right to control the standard. (In the FCI, the country of origin gets to write the standard, and the rest of the FCI countries have to use it. If there is no country of origin, the FCI writes the standard.) Then FCI itself revised the Havanese standard in 1997, making them low on leg, knowing full well that the Cuban dogs were not low on leg in the least, nor did the Cubans want them to be.

Now, the Cubans certainly have a clear idea what their own breed should look like- it's been there for 300 years! The simple fact is, neither HCA nor the FCI, both of whom have been aware of the existence of the Cuban standard for many years, have ever wanted to use that standard, nor do they want to use it now.

Why? Because it does not describe the majority of Havanese being bred or shown throughout Western Europe or in the US, and there is little "wiggle-room" in it for dogs who do not conform. As was the case in 1963, it clearly descibes a dog that is slightly longer than tall, lean of bone, high on leg, with a dropped croup and a crozier tail, not to exceed 13.5 pounds. It is not double-coated.


That's why you see dogs in Cuba that look the way they do. Because Cuban breeders breed to the current FCI Standard and not the Standard they proposed back in 1991. 

The difference in my dogs (and my future dogs) is that I breed to express a different dog. We all know the Havanese is actually made up of several breeds. I've just chosen to "reach in and pull out the part that is the Havana Silk Dog." Is my work complete? No. Will you see a bigger difference in 10 years? yes.


----------



## Julie

Greg,
I saw in the magazine "Our Havanese" an ad that said Seduso,but in Canada.Is that you or a brother/son etc.?I was just curious as I ran across it.I know you are in the south.....I guess I should of double checked the spelling,but I thought it was your same kennel name or call name.eace:


----------



## Greg

It's Sedosos rather than Sedoso. She breeds dogs in Canada and registers them with the CKC.


----------



## Julie

Oh,goodness--that is close.I just saw it and thought--oh,that's Greg--then I saw Canada and the dogs didn't look like yours.I was thrown there for a loop!ound:


----------



## Gableshavs

Thanks Greg. Ok, now I get it, now where can I find the original FCI standard? Also, if they said that Cuba is not this breeds country of origin, which country gets the credit? 

People in Miami (I'm talking about breeders who were there at the time and are now respected members of my local dog club) said they never saw a Bichon Havanais in any dog shows in early pre revolution years. There was no registry that they know of, do you know of one?

They were only seen as they call them poodles on the corners in circuses (like side shows, not like the ones we have here). The breed was almost extinct as the leader took great measures to remove dogs from Havana, due to the scarcity of food so I was told. Now the breed was resurrected in 1990's and the feeling is that it was to bring income into the country by Castro. 
So I'm wondering Greg, or anyone else, where did their breeding stock come from in Cuba, where were these dogs hiding?
Thanks so much,
Paula


----------



## Greg

Here is the 1963 FCI Standard

INTERNATIONAL CANINE FOUNDATION
(F.C. I.)

Secretariat General: rue Leopold II, 14-6530, Thuin, Belgique
No 250 Le 24, Semptembre 1963

Standard: Bichon Havanais

The Bichon Havanais is a dog of small size.

BODY: The body is a little longer than the height, the ribs rounded, the flanks well-raised, the line of the back ends with a well-descended croup.

LEGS: The legs are straight, quite seches (lean; literally: dry), the toes elongated and seches.

TAIL: The tail is carried raised in the shape of a crosier and is trimmed with long silky hair.

HEAD: The head is broad and flat across the skull, the front a little raised.

EYES: The eyes are rather large, very dark, preferably black. Eyelids almond-shaped.

EARS: The rather pointed ears are dropped, forming a soft fold, a little raised, directed neither toward the sides nor framing the cheeks.

MUZZLE: The muzzle is rather refined, the cheeks very flat, not prominent. The jaws fit well, the nose is black.

HAIR: The hair is quite flat, rather soft, forming light wispy waves at the ends of each strand.

COLOR: Rarely completely pure white, light or dark tan, havane, gray, or white largely marked with specified colors.

The hair on the muzzle may be slightly trimmed, but it is preferable to leave it natural.

WEIGHT: Not to exceed 6 kilos. (13.2 pounds)


----------



## Greg

Gableshavs said:


> So I'm wondering Greg, or anyone else, where did their breeding stock come from in Cuba, where were these dogs hiding?
> Thanks so much,
> Paula


They took that 1963 Standard and went door to door evaluating dogs. Eventually they found enough to start a Registry.


----------



## Gableshavs

Thank you for your expertise. I hope the tropical storm misses us, but now I have to get ready. Take care Greg, your help is greately appreciated.
Paula


----------



## Thumper

Greg said:


> Kara,
> 
> Companion dogs arent' evaluated unless the owner wants to show them. So it's hard to say if they "have the right stuff." Dogs presented for evaluation as an Intact dog are strictly evaluated not only as a registration tool, but also as a breeding tool. Once you have that piece of paper you know where your dog is week and where it is strong. You can make decisions from that.
> 
> I don't think I can make the Fiesta/HSDAA Regional Specialty in VA Beach. I wish I could because I love so many people in that area.......but at the moment I can't swing the $$$$$$$$$$ (I'm in the mortgage business <grin>)


That makes alot of sense, but can't companion dogs also "show" in the HSD events? I could've sworn I read that somewhere.

The mortgage business  ugh. Yep...I'm an economist and can basically sum up all the mumbo jumbo you hear on MSNBC to "it sucks" lol We are in the "stock market" sector, and historically, when the real estate market declines, the stock sectors go UP, but that is NOT happening this time around. So, yes....we were expecting to do much better this year than we have been. We are considering buying another rental property here soon, just have to time it right. Too bad you won't be able to come. The park they are having it at is really nice! October is hit or miss here as far as the weather is concerned. I wonder what kind of turn out they will have, the HSD following is pretty big here in Virginia.

I will have to ask Anne about her coat, just out of curiousity. It seems the same all over, the top isn't any different than the bottom.

But.....couldn't coats "change" with just general adaption to new environments? Evolution of species and all that scientific stuff?

Kara


----------



## JASHavanese

Greg said:


> JASHavanese said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did the hsd dogs drop BAER and hip checking in their standard for breeding?
> 
> but then again her dam is from a line that would flip over at being known as hsd so maybe that's why?
> QUOTE]
> 
> No need to go back and check. The HSDAA has not revised the health testing requirements.
> 
> You'd be surprised what dogs in her pedigree are registered with the HSDAA. I don't think making blanket statements like that are wise. Dottie is also one of the few dogs in her line that have CHIC numbers AND at the time she was put in, was the only dog in her line in the Egg Study and the TAMU research. Maybe other dogs are now in, but at the time she was the only one. So she's used to blazing new trails.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought one of the claims of the hsd was that they broke off because they were more health concerned and upset that the havanese people weren't jumping up and down about testing like they were. Now you're saying that you're breeding a dog that was BAER tested something like 19 months ago and the BAER results from the rest of the litter are posted but your dog isn't. No hip or LCP results are posted either. She's under 2, however hip testing and LCP CAN be posted. Here's my havanese, Lightning on the OFA website http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1217928#animal . So I don't get it. If you're going to make a blanket claim like that then ya gotta put your money where your mouth is. You have my dog's health testing who is a havanese and then match it up to the bitch you're going to breed next week. http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1273261#animal . See how much more tested my havanese dog that's under 2, like yours, is?
> Greg, you guys talk a good game but then fail to live up to it. That's one of the problems the havanese people have with this hsd stuff. Another is something else you mentioned.....this secret society you have. You can claim that we'd all be stunned at who went hsd but again can't back that up.
> I got a few calls from the last National with people saying that a rumor was spread that a very well known breeder in New York (I'm leaving her name out of this since she's already been a victim once) went HSD and she shot that down. She has a lot to lose if she's known as an hsd person and it isn't fair that she got drug into this by hsd people against her will.
> And the TAMU study. Again, that's another bone of contention with the havanese people. Many are saying they tried to get their dogs into the program and were turned down yet along comes Dottie a couple of years after it started and she gets put into the study because you're friends with the people who decided which dogs to let in.
> And before anyone wonders, Greg and I are friends. I just think he's a little misguided
Click to expand...


----------



## JASHavanese

Julie said:


> Greg,
> I saw in the magazine "Our Havanese" an ad that said Seduso,but in Canada.Is that you or a brother/son etc.?I was just curious as I ran across it.I know you are in the south.....I guess I should of double checked the spelling,but I thought it was your same kennel name or call name.eace:


Terri used to have the kennel name of Sedoso but we didn't find that out until after we registered our dogs as Sedoso. After a while Terri wanted to end the confusion and changed her kennel name to Sedoso*S*


----------



## JASHavanese

Greg said:


> I have no idea what makes your dogs different than mine.


I had to see that again. :amen:


----------



## JASHavanese

Melissa Miller said:


> Ryan... there are two threads on this all and it explains why they broke off.
> Im sure you can find them both as they probably have the most replies/views of any others.
> 
> As far as if these dogs act any different behavior wise, keep in mind, THEY WERE HAVANESE a few months ago. So unless they got depressed when they were told they are now HSD and NOT havanese, they are probably the same chipper Havs.


ound: :clap2: :cheer2: I like your sense of humor.


----------



## JASHavanese

Gableshavs said:


> Thank you for your expertise. I hope the tropical storm misses us, but now I have to get ready. Take care Greg, your help is greately appreciated.
> Paula


I hope you're ok. All I've heard about is Humberto that's off of our Texas coast so I had to look at weather.com to find out what else is going on. I see TD 8, is that what you're concerned about?


----------



## marjrc

freeway1976 said:


> Hey all..
> 
> Was just wondering who has or is getting a Havana Silk Dog?
> 
> Just curious, as I would love to see some puppy pics of thee guys! Also, I'm entrigued to know if the coat is much easier to maintain than the Havanese coat. (Was and wear?) Although, when Beamer swims and air dries, his coat has turned out great, without any brushing at all! I have never actualy air dryed him after a real bath though...
> 
> Thanks!
> Ryan


So Ryan, have you found answers to your question about who owns an HSD?? See where this thread ended up? LOL Why am I not surprised. :frusty:

Like Melissa said, we have at least two very long threads about why HSD and Havs may or may not be different, about the splitting off and who's right, who's wrong and who just doesn't plain care anymore. All members need to do is a 'search' for 'havana silk dogs' and post in those threads.

Back to the original question..... :focus: Are there any other people here that have a Havana Silk Dog? :biggrin1: eace:


----------



## Beamer

Yeah, I guess these threads always go back to the argument of HSD Vs. Havanese.. lol

To funny... atleast everyone here is very passionate about their dogs!


----------



## Greg

yes companion dogs can show at HSDAA events. They have a seperate class.

They sold out a block of 50 rooms at the Sheraton on the beach. I know there are people coming from all over the US, Canada and a couple from Europe. 

Coats could change to adapt to environmental changes........but wouldn't the breeder be breeding to the Standard? Just because it is hard doesn't mean it shouldn't be done


----------



## Greg

JASHavanese said:


> Terri used to have the kennel name of Sedoso but we didn't find that out until after we registered our dogs as Sedoso. After a while Terri wanted to end the confusion and changed her kennel name to Sedoso*S*


When we did our search we searched AKC kennel names. She's in Canada and that's why we didn't find her.


----------



## Greg

JASHavanese said:


> Greg said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought one of the claims of the hsd was that they broke off because they were more health concerned and upset that the havanese people weren't jumping up and down about testing like they were. Now you're saying that you're breeding a dog that was BAER tested something like 19 months ago and the BAER results from the rest of the litter are posted but your dog isn't. No hip or LCP results are posted either. She's under 2, however hip testing and LCP CAN be posted. Here's my havanese, Lightning on the OFA website http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1217928#animal . So I don't get it. If you're going to make a blanket claim like that then ya gotta put your money where your mouth is. You have my dog's health testing who is a havanese and then match it up to the bitch you're going to breed next week. http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1273261#animal . See how much more tested my havanese dog that's under 2, like yours, is?
> Greg, you guys talk a good game but then fail to live up to it. That's one of the problems the havanese people have with this hsd stuff. Another is something else you mentioned.....this secret society you have. You can claim that we'd all be stunned at who went hsd but again can't back that up.
> I got a few calls from the last National with people saying that a rumor was spread that a very well known breeder in New York (I'm leaving her name out of this since she's already been a victim once) went HSD and she shot that down. She has a lot to lose if she's known as an hsd person and it isn't fair that she got drug into this by hsd people against her will.
> And the TAMU study. Again, that's another bone of contention with the havanese people. Many are saying they tried to get their dogs into the program and were turned down yet along comes Dottie a couple of years after it started and she gets put into the study because you're friends with the people who decided which dogs to let in.
> And before anyone wonders, Greg and I are friends. I just think he's a little misguided
> 
> 
> 
> Jan,
> 
> I think you just want to be argumentative. Let's talk about Dee Dee so that your misguided posts doesn't start rumors about this sweet little dog. She has all her health testing done to include prelim hips. Just because you don't see it up on the offa site doesn't mean it wasn't done nor wasn't sent in. I was late on sending in the BAER testing that was done when she was 7 weeks old.........and I'll do the LCP with her 2 yr official hips........but she's health tested. Please don't insinuate any differently. Anyone who is interested in one of her pups can receive copies of all her health tests and soaped pictures, all of her dam's health tests and soaped pictures, all of her sire's health tests and soaped pictures, all of her maternal grand****'s health tests and soaped pictures, all of her maternal grandsire's health tests and soaped pictures, all of her paternal granddam's health tests and soaped pictures .........the list goes on and on. I don't think of this as a game and I don't fail to live up to it either.
> 
> The HSDAA isn't a secret society. I don't blame people for not coming out and admitting they've put their dogs into the registry. Many have been threatened with lawsuits, physical and emotional distress and I even had one person say they wish my Cancer had killed me. Heck if I'd have known how mean people would be about it I might have kept it a secret too. But just because they are silent doesnt' mean their dogs aren't in the registry. That's why you can't make blanket statements about what dog is or isn't in the registry........there are way more dogs in the registry than I ever imagined at this point. Heck I was amazed at how many people on this forum have Silk Dogs.
> 
> As far as the TAMU thing..........I think it is very easy for a person who's dog isn't in the study to say they tried to get in but were refused. Much easier than admitting they didn't put their dog in. Now maybe some were refused.......because if your dog's lines were already in then they didn't need the genes. But to just come out and say it was an exclusive study.......that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Think about it for a minute. Would it help or hurt the research to have a greater cross section of the gene pool? And don't you think the scientists at TAMU know that? Don't you think that's one of the things that validates their research........which was peer reviewed and recently published in the Journal of Heredity? No I think it was more likely they didn't put their dogs in because it was easier to gripe on the sidelines than be a part of the study.
Click to expand...


----------



## Gableshavs

I too am not up to date on posting test results, Mari's BAER (normal) was done as a puppy and she's almost 2, I'd better get it posted soon, theres no excuse for procrastinating but I tend to do it anyway. She had her Patellas done on June 23, also normal and still not posted. 

Greg, do any European breeders breed to the 1963 FCI standard? Also are the members lists of other breed clubs made public?

Thanks again,
Paula


----------



## Tom King

Quote:
"Here is a link to a kennel in Cuba that shows the top ranking dogs. I can't see silkiness in their coats, perhaps you can clarify why these Cuban dogs do not look like the Havana Silks?
http://bichonhabanero.tripod.com/kennel.htm

Thanks for your help, it's appreciated.
Paula"

Dogs that you see with Cuban Championships are those shown in shows to the current FCI Standard. Most are even sent from Europe just to get a Cuban Championship. There are some fairly new breeders in Cuba breeding these dogs. These are not all the Bichon Habaneros in Cuba and are not a representation of Cuban Bichon Habaneros.

We have 12 dogs registered as Havana Silk Dogs. Every puppy we have ever produced can be registered and shown if the owners so desire. All the adult coats are easy to maintain. We have selected away from the "coarse dogs" I called them over a decade ago that are now referred to as the "Arizona dogs".

We brushed Posh Sunday and noticed on the calender that he hadn't been groomed since the middle of July. This is not normal for us but we've been busy. He had some pin knots in his armpits but otherwise brushed right out.

The differences are not so much now but what the selections will be for in the future.


----------



## Suuske747

European HSD breeders?

I'd be interested to find out who that would be...... just to keep track of developments towards HSD here in the FCI......


----------



## Suuske747

All this double coat talk, cottony, silky....

Does anyone have close up pictures?

Double coat : does that simply mean 2 different thicknesses in hair?

Sierra has been developing some thicker hairs on her back and tail.....lovely white strands with red shiny tips!

But is that a double coat? dunno......
wash and wear, yes...but she'd then she really gets wavey, So I always blow-dry it straight


----------



## Doggie Nut

:tape: eace:


----------



## Greg

Gableshavs said:


> I too am not up to date on posting test results, Mari's BAER (normal) was done as a puppy and she's almost 2, I'd better get it posted soon, theres no excuse for procrastinating but I tend to do it anyway. She had her Patellas done on June 23, also normal and still not posted.
> 
> Greg, do any European breeders breed to the 1963 FCI standard? Also are the members lists of other breed clubs made public?
> 
> Thanks again,
> Paula


Paula,

I don't think any breeder is breeding to the 1963 FCI Standard. The HSDAA used it as our template and where it left off information the AKC required we added from the Cuban Standard that was in place prior to them using the current FCI Standard. So the closest you'll find to the 1963 FCI Standard is a HSDAA breeder.

I don't think any breed club makes its member list public. In each case the member either informs the public or not.

Paula, feel free to call mem if you'd like to talk more about this

727-526-9526


----------



## Dawna

Paula,
Many clubs do publish their membership lists. 
Dawna


----------



## JASHavanese

Dawna said:


> Paula,
> Many clubs do publish their membership lists.
> Dawna


:nono: You're being argumentative pointing out the facts Dawna. 
Oh I crack myself up sometimes. BTW, both Dawna and I have dogs from Greg's first litter. She left his list, I got kicked off because I told someone that I wouldn't talk about Greg as a breeder and to go to others if they wanted to know about this hsd stuff. I still talk to Greg on the phone when he calls and ideas get bounced around between us so we aren't out for each other's blood. 
I think something needs to be made clear. I doubt that anyone has a problem with people who choose to buy darling little puppies that someone calls a hsd. The problems are the inconsistencies from the original people who started this little club and all of the behind the scenes really nasty things that were and are being done. If you've gotten a puppy and it's from a hsd breeder, God bless you and the puppy and I hope you're received with open arms in this forum.


----------



## JASHavanese

Greg said:


> JASHavanese said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jan,
> 
> I think you just want to be argumentative. Let's talk about Dee Dee so that your misguided posts doesn't start rumors about this sweet little dog. She has all her health testing done to include prelim hips. Just because you don't see it up on the offa site doesn't mean it wasn't done nor wasn't sent in. I was late on sending in the BAER testing that was done when she was 7 weeks old.........and I'll do the LCP with her 2 yr official hips........but she's health tested. Please don't insinuate any differently. Anyone who is interested in one of her pups can receive copies of all her health tests and soaped pictures, all of her dam's health tests and soaped pictures, all of her sire's health tests and soaped pictures, all of her maternal grand****'s health tests and soaped pictures, all of her maternal grandsire's health tests and soaped pictures, all of her paternal granddam's health tests and soaped pictures .........the list goes on and on. I don't think of this as a game and I don't fail to live up to it either.
> 
> The HSDAA isn't a secret society. I don't blame people for not coming out and admitting they've put their dogs into the registry. Many have been threatened with lawsuits, physical and emotional distress and I even had one person say they wish my Cancer had killed me. Heck if I'd have known how mean people would be about it I might have kept it a secret too. But just because they are silent doesnt' mean their dogs aren't in the registry. That's why you can't make blanket statements about what dog is or isn't in the registry........there are way more dogs in the registry than I ever imagined at this point. Heck I was amazed at how many people on this forum have Silk Dogs.
> 
> As far as the TAMU thing..........I think it is very easy for a person who's dog isn't in the study to say they tried to get in but were refused. Much easier than admitting they didn't put their dog in. Now maybe some were refused.......because if your dog's lines were already in then they didn't need the genes. But to just come out and say it was an exclusive study.......that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Think about it for a minute. Would it help or hurt the research to have a greater cross section of the gene pool? And don't you think the scientists at TAMU know that? Don't you think that's one of the things that validates their research........which was peer reviewed and recently published in the Journal of Heredity? No I think it was more likely they didn't put their dogs in because it was easier to gripe on the sidelines than be a part of the study.
> 
> 
> 
> What would you tell people looking for a puppy? CHECK THE OFA WEBSITE. How many times did you tell me that? Now those same rules don't apply? You're going to health test her AFTER you breed her? GREG!! You're breaking every rule you taught me!! You're breeding her next week, not waiting until she's 2 when you say you'll get the tests done. Breeding right before she's 2 doesn't bother me. Not being able to show me test results on your website or ofa does. Bandit was bred right before 2, but her hip prelims were on my website for all to see. Her LCP was listed on OFA when she was 17 months old because a hip prelim was done and I submitted both.
> Let's go back to basics here. We were told your little group was splitting off because you were more concerned about the havanese health than the havanese people....yet you're proving that wrong by your actions. Pick a reason and stick to it, don't bounce your rules around to suit yourself.
> Nope, people tried to get their dogs into the TAMU study and got no reply even after asking several times. There are too many people saying the same thing not to believe them. These are people I trust and they aren't going to lie to me.
Click to expand...


----------



## Greg

Jan,

Put down the crack pipe and step away from the computer <grin>.

We all know there is a difference between not health testing and being late sending in the results.


----------



## Julie

Now,Greg----
you were offended by a hitler comment and say this?What the hell is wrong with you?There is no need to make a comment like that!:fish:
I do not think that is fair to Jan.....


----------



## JASHavanese

Greg said:


> Jan,
> 
> Put down the crack pipe and step away from the computer <grin>.
> 
> We all know there is a difference between not health testing and being late sending in the results.


:nono: You already know words like that don't phase me and won't take me off the subject. These are your own words Greg.



Greg said:


> I was late on sending in the BAER testing that was done when she was 7 weeks old.........*and I'll do the LCP with her 2 yr official hips*.


She isn't 2 yet but she's being bred next week and you'll have her testing done at 2 *AFTER she has puppies*? No hip prelims to be found, no LCP, no BAER (but I do believe you have her BAER results, but OFA doesn't). You aren't going to xray her hips when she's pregnant and aren't going to have it done when she's nursing, so when are you getting the hips and LCP done? For those who don't breed, when you have the hip xrays done, they also read it for LCP, no other xray needed for that test and it can be done from a prelim which is an xray done before 2 years of age. 
I can hear your own words ringing in my ears Greg. You'd tell me to run from something like that. 
To go a step further, to be a hsd, you're supposed to have a CHIC number which Dee Dee doesn't have. Are the rules being bent for you and why bother to have the rules if they aren't enforced. I thought your little group broke off because the havanese people didn't live up to your health testing ideals. You're showing us that your own rules apply only to others. This is from the hsd website:
*full registration of intact animals by the Havana Silk Dog Association of America, the breed's national Parent Club, requires an OFA/CHIC number*


----------



## Julie

You two argue all you want---------:argue:
:fish:but if I was your mother you'd each have a darn spanking and be sitting in time out!:fish:


----------



## irnfit

Julie, that's funny. But I can understand the frustration. First they said they were forming their own club because of health issues with Havanese. Then it is because of type. Round and round it goes, where it will stop, nobody knows!!!! I just hope the dogs are happy and healthy.


----------



## Dawna

There is also a difference in specifically insulting someone on a public forum, and feigning offense at an innocent comment made by someone else. Grow up Greg. It's about time you come to the understanding that you really aren't intellectually superior to everyone you meet.


----------



## JASHavanese

irnfit said:


> Julie, that's funny. But I can understand the frustration. First they said they were forming their own club because of health issues with Havanese. Then it is because of type. Round and round it goes, where it will stop, nobody knows!!!! I just hope the dogs are happy and healthy.


:amen: I don't care what name the puppy is known by and hope they're all happy and healthy. :dance:


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## Havtahava

Jan, where did you get the quote of Greg posting about Dee Dee? I don't see that post in this topic or in any other topics.


----------



## Greg

JASHavanese said:


> :nono: You already know words like that don't phase me and won't take me off the subject. These are your own words Greg.
> 
> She isn't 2 yet but she's being bred next week and you'll have her testing done at 2 *AFTER she has puppies*? No hip prelims to be found, no LCP, no BAER (but I do believe you have her BAER results, but OFA doesn't). You aren't going to xray her hips when she's pregnant and aren't going to have it done when she's nursing, so when are you getting the hips and LCP done? For those who don't breed, when you have the hip xrays done, they also read it for LCP, no other xray needed for that test and it can be done from a prelim which is an xray done before 2 years of age.
> I can hear your own words ringing in my ears Greg. You'd tell me to run from something like that.
> 
> To go a step further, to be a hsd, you're supposed to have a CHIC number which Trixie doesn't have. Are the rules being bent for you and why bother to have the rules if they aren't enforced. I thought your little group broke off because the havanese people didn't live up to your health testing ideals. You're showing us that your own rules apply only to others. This is from the hsd website:
> *full registration of intact animals by the Havana Silk Dog Association of America, the breed's national Parent Club, requires an OFA/CHIC number*


Oh where to start??????????????

Let's see.....oh did I mention LCP isn't one of the four HSDAA required health tests? That's got to hurt eh? All that typing to find out if you'd actually read the HSDAA website you'd have known this. Of course when she's 2 I'll just include it with her official hips. But That's in a couple of months. And while I've never posted prelim hips I do have them here. So people who are interested in puppies (but not those who just want to vent and give me a hard time) can actually ask me to email them a scan of the prelim. And of course I will.

Trixie's CHIC # is 40353. If you were really interested in the truth you would have gone to www.offa.org and typed her name in. Actually you only need to type in Bydand Sedoso........she's the only one that starts like that. I guess it's just easier to accuse poor sweet Trix of not having a CHIC number than actually looking it up. Oh wait! Maybe I should have said I tried to get her a CHIC # but because it is an exclusive club and I didn't know the right people they wouldn't give her one. She feels left out too. Every other dog in the house 2 yrs of age or more has one..........but not poor Trixie. They never let her play reindeer games.

So let's see. I have 3 fully registered intact Silk Dogs complete with CHIC #, DNA, Evaluation and soaped pics and 1 provisional Silk Dog complete with everything but 2 yr hips and an evaluation certificate. Not bad I'd say.

Oh and a Standard Poodle who plays centerfield and likes ice cream cups.


----------



## Greg

Julie said:


> Now,Greg----
> you were offended by a hitler comment and say this?What the hell is wrong with you?There is no need to make a comment like that!:fish:
> I do not think that is fair to Jan.....


She's heard me say it before and she knows it's a joke. In fact based upon all the PMs I have this morning lots of people took it as funny.......just as I intended.


----------



## JASHavanese

Havtahava said:


> Jan, where did you get the quote of Greg posting about Dee Dee? I don't see that post in this topic or in any other topics.


http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=1809&page=8 Number 80. Hey, I'm learning my way around the forum!!


----------



## Beamer

Greg,
Do you allow Canadian Breeders to join the HSDAA?? I have not seen any as of yet.. OR will there be a Canadian chapter started?

Just curious!

Thanks,
Ryan


----------



## Havtahava

Ah, I missed that one. Funny how your link shows it is on page 8. It's on page 2 for me because my settings are different. Thanks for showing the post number.


----------



## Melissa Miller

I have had only one cup of coffee this morning... yall have to stop! This is better than Days of our Lives.


----------



## Greg

freeway1976 said:


> Greg,
> Do you allow Canadian Breeders to join the HSDAA?? I have not seen any as of yet.. OR will there be a Canadian chapter started?
> 
> Just curious!
> 
> Thanks,
> Ryan


yes there are several members from outside the US, many from Canada.


----------



## JASHavanese

Greg said:


> Oh where to start??????????????
> 
> Let's see.....oh did I mention LCP isn't one of the four HSDAA required health tests? That's got to hurt eh? All that typing to find out if you'd actually read the HSDAA website you'd have known this. Of course when she's 2 I'll just include it with her official hips. But That's in a couple of months. And while I've never posted prelim hips I do have them here. So people who are interested in puppies (but not those who just want to vent and give me a hard time) can actually ask me to email them a scan of the prelim. And of course I will.
> 
> Trixie's CHIC # is 40353. If you were really interested in the truth you would have gone to www.offa.org and typed her name in. Actually you only need to type in Bydand Sedoso........she's the only one that starts like that. I guess it's just easier to accuse poor sweet Trix of not having a CHIC number than actually looking it up. Oh wait! Maybe I should have said I tried to get her a CHIC # but because it is an exclusive club and I didn't know the right people they wouldn't give her one. She feels left out too. Every other dog in the house 2 yrs of age or more has one..........but not poor Trixie. They never let her play reindeer games.
> 
> So let's see. I have 3 fully registered intact Silk Dogs complete with CHIC #, DNA, Evaluation and soaped pics and 1 provisional Silk Dog complete with everything but 2 yr hips and an evaluation certificate. Not bad I'd say.
> 
> Oh and a Standard Poodle who plays centerfield and likes ice cream cups.


Oops, I typed Trixie and meant Dee Dee who is not health tested and DOESN'T have her CHIC number according to OFA. http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1273261#animal
Forget it Greg, you aren't going to stick a knife in my heart *again* by talking about the standard poodle that you didn't return to me so move on to a different subject.


----------



## JASHavanese

Melissa Miller said:


> I have had only one cup of coffee this morning... yall have to stop! This is better than Days of our Lives.


There is talk that they're going to get rid of Days like they did Passions. :Cry: :Cry: I'm on strike and not watching NBC....except when Days is on.


----------



## Julie

Greg said:


> She's heard me say it before and she knows it's a joke. In fact based upon all the PMs I have this morning lots of people took it as funny.......just as I intended.


Everyone on this forum knew exactly what Vicki meant by her analogy of Hitler creating a superior race too-EXCEPT YOU.YOU were the only one offended,but that didn't stop you from pointing it out and making her feel bad.Since all of us are not prevy to your inside jokes,and we could be offended--maybe you should be careful who you accuse of smoking crack.For God's sake--take a step up!eace:


----------



## Greg

yeah Dee Dee is under 2 so she can't get a CHIC #. I don't think she minds as much as Trixie though. Trixie was very hurt when she was left out of that exclusive club. Poor Trixie. And she's sooooo sweet too. It's just devastating.


----------



## Beamer

Whats this all about _*Passions *_being cancelled?? I did not know.. wow, that show was FUNNY.. lol.. Although, it was never the same since the passing of Timmy...


----------



## Paige

Julie said:


> Everyone on this forum knew exactly what Vicki meant by her analogy of Hitler creating a superior race too-EXCEPT YOU.YOU were the only one offended,but that didn't stop you from pointing it out and making her feel bad.Since all of us are not prevy to your inside jokes,and we could be offended--maybe you should be careful who you accuse of smoking crack.For God's sake--take a step up!eace:


:clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:


----------



## Beamer

Greg,

Can you piont me to some HSD Canadian Breeders? I cannot seem to find any using serach engines....?? Or maybe they do not have websites?

Thanks..
Ryan


----------



## Melissa Miller

Greg.. they have doggie prozac is DeDe gets depressed like Trixie was. 

Off topic... 
I tried to boycott NBC because they turn the commercials WAY up. But thats my law and order and Medium channel, so I can't leave. I don't watch Days actually.. just used the reference. 
Back to Topic... 

Ryan are you going to the dark side? I mean the HSDAA side. Either way everyone is welcome.. because we love ALL Havs.... even those in denial.


----------



## Dawna

Havanial. LOL


----------



## Julie

ound:ound:ound:Melissaound:ound:ound:


----------



## JASHavanese

freeway1976 said:


> Whats this all about _*Passions *_being cancelled?? I did not know.. wow, that show was FUNNY.. lol.. Although, it was never the same since the passing of Timmy...


They just took it off of NBC and moved it to dish TV. Darn, the show finally got good and they did that! It's off the air this week and will start next week but not here. We don't have that :Cry:


----------



## marbenv

:focus: Okay, Ryan--you opened this can alrighty!! Oscar is registered HSD. 

And I think he's CUTE!!!! He doesn't mat, but only 5 months old. Head and legs are silky, back is cottony (but he rolls around on it all the time!!) Great disposition, unless he's on the leash (he loves to PULL!!)He does not have an HSD tail--too curly for the standard.

Marsha


----------



## Julie

He is cute Marsha!
The best part about you---you are not on here putting everyone else down and saying your guy is healthier,better,superior etc.then anyone else's!
Cheers to you!A total class act!:wink::clap2:


----------



## Dawna

Matting isn't usually an issue until they start blowing their puppy coat. Usually around 8-9 months. Most likely, no matter what your havanese is called, you will have your hands full keeping on top of a show coat at that stage.:fear: It ain't fun. Just ask Melissa how much I have whined to her about mats in the past months. :biggrin1:


----------



## Beamer

Melissa!
I'm not 'switching' over to the _'dark side'_.. lol
I would just like to see the Canadian representation of the HSD effort.

Although, I think Greg mentioned he was Canadian (or raised here) or something in an eralier post many moons ago..

Ryan


----------



## Beamer

Julie,
You know whats funny... After Beamer swims in the lake at the cottage and air dries, his Coat is SOOOO Nice and un matted! Honestly, its more silky and smooth than when we bath him with shampoo and blow dry him... Very odd...
So, maybe you should all trying throwing your Havs in a lake and see what happends with the coat... lol

Ryan


----------



## lfung5

Melissa you are a funny girl. 

My guys are all HAVANESE, no sliks here. I have never had matting problems. One has the cottony coat, but I keep her shorter. The boys are silky and don't have profuse coats. Scudder is 9 1/2 months and so far no matting. I am holding my breath!

I agree that the HSD have an elegant look, but I prefer the Havanese face over the HSD. I tend to like a SLIGHTLY shorter muzzle. I think my guys muzzles are more like a 3:5 ratio. Might not be correct, but it sure is cute!


----------



## Greg

I can't just name members or people who've registered their dogs with the HSDAA. When you speak to a breeder you can always ask them.

My wife & son are Canadian. Both born in Toronto. That's where we are headed for Christmas too! Skating at Nathan Phillips Square.........woohoo!


----------



## Julie

freeway1976 said:


> Julie,
> You know whats funny... After Beamer swims in the lake at the cottage and air dries, his Coat is SOOOO Nice and un matted! Honestly, its more silky and smooth than when we bath him with shampoo and blow dry him... Very odd...
> So, maybe you should all trying throwing your Havs in a lake and see what happends with the coat... lol
> 
> Ryan


Hey---Good Idea Ryan!We'll be up!:becky:


----------



## Sunnygirl

Melissa Miller said:


> Off topic...
> I tried to boycott NBC because they turn the commercials WAY up. But thats my law and order and Medium channel, so I can't leave.


Oooh, this is one of those things that drive me nuts. I don't even watch TV, but if I'm in the room when someone else is watching, I'm about blown off my chair by the volume increase when the commercials come on. Grrr.

And back to topic . . . as of yesterday afternoon I have TWO Silk Dogs, because we got Nico's brother and littermate, Desi. Life's getting more interesting at our house - we added two guinea pigs and a puppy in 3 days. And grrrr to the guinea pigs, too.


----------



## lfung5

Did you post pictures of your new pup yet?


----------



## JASHavanese

Greg said:


> yeah Dee Dee is under 2 so she can't get a CHIC #. I don't think she minds as much as Trixie though. Trixie was very hurt when she was left out of that exclusive club. Poor Trixie. And she's sooooo sweet too. It's just devastating.


That's true, she can't get her CHIC number until she's 2 however she can still show hip prelims, LCP, and BAER, all of which are missing from her health records and you're breeding her in a week and say you'll do the rest of her health testing AFTER she has puppies. You've already said she doesn't have her LCP and that's easy to fix and get recorded *if* she's had a hip prelim, but you already know that. You're giving the dark side a bad name Greg.....well, a worse one anyway.


----------



## JASHavanese

Sunnygirl said:


> because we got Nico's brother and littermate, Desi. Life's getting more interesting at our house - we added two guinea pigs and a puppy in 3 days. And grrrr to the guinea pigs, too.


Woooooooohoooooooooooo you did get him!!! Congratulations on the addition to your family!


----------



## Greg

No Jan, they aren't missing from her health records. They are missing from the OFA site. There is a big distinction to be made here. Just because they are not on the site doesn't mean they haven't been done. 

I would have thought you'd understand this. When I saw Bandit was bred again but her CERF was out of date in May, I didn't just assume you were breeding an un-health tested dog. I figured like everyone else either you were late sending in the reports or they hadn't posted yet. I thought that more than likely all your puppy buyers would be given copies of the test results if the results hadn't been posted. I'm sure that's the case now. I never questioned you privately and certainly not publically about it. 

I think we should let this go. I'm not going to sit around and assume the worst about you........and I wish you'd do the same for me.


----------



## JASHavanese

Melissa Miller said:


> Greg.. they have doggie prozac is DeDe gets depressed like Trixie was.
> 
> Off topic...
> I tried to boycott NBC because they turn the commercials WAY up. But thats my law and order and Medium channel, so I can't leave. I don't watch Days actually.. just used the reference.
> Back to Topic...
> 
> Ryan are you going to the dark side? I mean the HSDAA side. Either way everyone is welcome.. because we love ALL Havs.... even those in denial.


ound: You're too funny Melissa.
You're right, a remote in hand while watching NBC is a good thing to turn the volume of commercials down. Yikes, I can't give up Medium but you can watch Law and Order for me. Wait a minute....what channel does Deal Or No Deal show on?


----------



## irnfit

OT - I boycotted Passions because they took Another World off and put Passions on. I thought it was just me with the loud commercials. Glad to know it's not my ears. :biggrin1: 

:focus: sort of...Shelby just starting blowing coat a few weeks ago, and she is 11 mos. I thought I was going to get away with it with her, but no such luck. One side of her is so matted, it feels like she has lumps all over. I have been working a little each day to get them out.

I think Hav or HSD, you will still have this problem.


----------



## JASHavanese

Greg said:


> No Jan, they aren't missing from her health records. They are missing from the OFA site. There is a big distinction to be made here. Just because they are not on the site doesn't mean they haven't been done.


Greg, you can go back and look at your own post and see that you said that you'll finish up her health testing when she's 2 which is after the puppies are born. You're going against everything you taught me.
Thank you for not continuing to post the really nasty remarks to me though.


----------



## Greg

That's right Jan. When she's 2 we'll head up to Doc's and have her hips done for her Official OFA Hip X-Rays. When we have her official results we'll have them posted to the OFA site just like we've done for all our dogs. Until then we'll work off the prelims we took in June....

That's what many breeders do when their bitch comes into season a little early. In fact the HSDAA website best practices mentions this and advises breeders to do exactly what I'm doing.


----------



## JASHavanese

irnfit said:


> OT - I boycotted Passions because they took Another World off and put Passions on. I thought it was just me with the loud commercials. Glad to know it's not my ears. :biggrin1:
> 
> :focus: sort of...Shelby just starting blowing coat a few weeks ago, and she is 11 mos. I thought I was going to get away with it with her, but no such luck. One side of her is so matted, it feels like she has lumps all over. I have been working a little each day to get them out.
> 
> I think Hav or HSD, you will still have this problem.


They went from Another World to a way out world with Passions :biggrin1: 
I'll tell you what really helps me through coat change. Hope it can help you too. I wash my dogs then use a hair color bottle and fill about a third of the way up the bottle with Triple Moisture Silk touch leave in cream by Neutrogena and then fill the rest with water and shake it really well. Then I get the tip of the bottle way down in the coat and squeeze in the mixture. After I do that, I run a bit of water over the dog to get the conditioner all through the coat. Then I comb with the dog wet and for me it's so much easier to get mats out....even the really bad ones you're getting. I work from the edge of the mat and slide out hairs little by little until the mat is gone. Coat change is not easy but when they get older their coats are easier to manage.
There are others that would freak out at washing a matted coat before brushig it, but it works for me.


----------



## JASHavanese

Greg said:


> That's right Jan. When she's 2 we'll head up to Doc's and have her hips done for her Official OFA Hip X-Rays. When we have her official results we'll have them posted to the OFA site just like we've done for all our dogs. Until then we'll work off the prelims we took in June....
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Were these prelims sent into OFA?


----------



## Paige

Jan, at what age does the matting quit and the easier coat come in? I have one who will be two in Nov. and he is still matting. It's getting better, but he's still matting. Do they mat their whole life?


----------



## Greg

JASHavanese said:


> Greg said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's right Jan. When she's 2 we'll head up to Doc's and have her hips done for her Official OFA Hip X-Rays. When we have her official results we'll have them posted to the OFA site just like we've done for all our dogs. Until then we'll work off the prelims we took in June....
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Were these prelims sent into OFA?
> 
> 
> 
> Yep. Sure did
Click to expand...


----------



## irnfit

Thanks for the tip, Jan. A hair color bottle?? What is that?? (hehe) 
I am usually good about brushing before bathing. But we were on vacation, and she was in the water, so.....Now I am fighting with her to get them out. It's almost done, just a few more to go. Up until now, she has been very easy with no matting at all. Now Kodi's mats have decreased - he will be 2 yrs in Nov.


----------



## JASHavanese

reece said:


> Jan, at what age does the matting quit and the easier coat come in? I have one who will be two in Nov. and he is still matting. It's getting better, but he's still matting. Do they mat their whole life?


Paige, each hav is different so your guess is as good as mine :biggrin1:
I'm told after age 3 that the coats are pretty much a snap to deal with. I have a couple that are easy care and one that's OMG. My male fell in love with the OMG one and chewed off her ear hair so there went showing her for a while so she'll be cut down and I'll bypass the OMG stage. I was kind of grumbling about it, but I think he did me a favor.


----------



## JASHavanese

Greg said:


> JASHavanese said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep. Sure did
> 
> 
> 
> Good deal, what rating did she get?
> I'm a little lost though because when you submit hip xrays, they read it for LCP and you're saying you'll have her tested for LCP after she's 2.
Click to expand...


----------



## JASHavanese

irnfit said:


> Thanks for the tip, Jan. A hair color bottle?? What is that?? (hehe)
> I am usually good about brushing before bathing. But we were on vacation, and she was in the water, so.....Now I am fighting with her to get them out. It's almost done, just a few more to go. Up until now, she has been very easy with no matting at all. Now Kodi's mats have decreased - he will be 2 yrs in Nov.


I learned about hair color bottles from other people. ound: My roots have nothing to do with it. :laugh: 
Oops, I've already said I owned beauty shops. 
Try that mixture and put it on dry hair and the mats should be easier to get out, well at least for me they are. It's pretty cheap and you can buy it in the grocery store.


----------



## Greg

JASHavanese said:


> Greg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good deal, what rating did she get?
> I'm a little lost though because when you submit hip xrays, they read it for LCP and you're saying you'll have her tested for LCP after she's 2.
> 
> 
> 
> she got a good. Yeah! Here's her results
> 
> http://www.sedosohavanasilkdogs.com/Dee%20Dee%20Prelim.htm
> 
> I just forgot the LCP paperwork to send in with the xrays. I'll remember next time.
Click to expand...


----------



## lfung5

I use the hair color bottle too!


----------



## JASHavanese

lfung5 said:


> I use the hair color bottle too!


You know SOMEONE is going to ask, so I'll do it. On your hav or you? :bounce: My answer is both :thumb: I think the only color my hair hasn't been is black....but you never know, it might be next :biggrin1:


----------



## JASHavanese

Greg said:


> That's right Jan. When she's 2 we'll head up to Doc's and have her hips done for her Official OFA Hip X-Rays. When we have her official results we'll have them posted to the OFA site just like we've done for all our dogs. Until then we'll work off the prelims we took in June....
> 
> That's what many breeders do when their bitch comes into season a little early. In fact the HSDAA website best practices mentions this and advises breeders to do exactly what I'm doing.


Here's something else they ask of you too Greg:
B. Sportsmanship is practiced not only at dog shows, but while travelling, staying in hotels, at meetings, in relationships with other dog people, and any place where one is representing the Sport of Dogs.


----------



## Greg

and that has what to do with whether or not Dee Dee is health tested prior to me breeding her?


----------



## jada1938

*Silkies*

Interesting point....if a dog is registered as a silky, how can it be a Hav, and visa versa? My understand is that the silkies are 'another breed', not a Hav. 
Yes, one of my dogs could be registered as a silky because of her breeding, but she was bought/shown/finished as Havanese and that is what she is to me. 
Ann Sherman


----------



## JASHavanese

Greg said:


> and that has what to do with whether or not Dee Dee is health tested prior to me breeding her?


Sportsmanship would deal with making really rude comments to people on this board like telling them to put down a crack pipe and step away from their computer.


----------



## Greg

JASHavanese said:


> Sportsmanship would deal with making really rude comments to people on this board like telling them to put down a crack pipe and step away from their computer.


Finally something amusing.

It certainly couldn't be falsely accusing me of breeding dogs that aren't health tested. I certainly couldn't be to continue to belabor the point even when I point out the dog was health tested but the results aren't up on the OFA site yet. It certainly couldn't be continuing still when I point out the same thing happened to Bandit. Nope, it can only be me because I've come out and openly said I breed Havana Silk Dogs.

Jan it's time to let it go. Quit grasping at straws.


----------



## Janet Zee

I joined this forum long before I was owned by a Hav. I soaked up all the great info the fantastic and caring people on this forum suggested. A few weeks prior to picking up my puppy, the poop-hit-the-fan, a new Breed/Club/Association, had surfaced. To tell the truth it meant nothing to me. I just knew I would be getting a Hav in a few weeks and I really couldn't care less. 

I had researched this breed on and off for many years, on and off because we had suffered several heartaches through these years that put owning a Hav on the back burner. Now it was time, I found an excellent breeder, the dam & sire had great pedigrees, health tested quality dogs. At the time I had no idea he would be a HSD. Again, did I care my puppy would be called a HSD, I sure didn't. I love him more than anything in this world.

I quess I can speak for all the parents on this forum, we love our babies no matter what they are called.

Well thats my $1 (inflation).


All the best,


----------



## Greg

Thank you Janet. That's the way it should be.


----------



## Beamer

Ann,

Yeah, I asked that very question a while back but did not get a 'real' answer... lol..
On the HSD website it states:

At this point in time, the Havana Silk Dog is a breed unto itself, _separate and distinct from the Havanese_, with its own standard, its own Parent Club, its own registry and its own championship titles.

So... I'll ask the question AGAIN.....

If the above statement is TRUE, then why would this 'distinct' breed want to register as the Havanese? I understant that the HSD still fits the Hav standard, but the above statement says it all! So why register as a Havanese after making such a bold statement as above?

Greg, your thoughts?

Thanks,
Ryan


----------



## Greg

Ryan,

At this point I doubt many of us are registering as Havanese at all. Unless someone wants one of my puppies and feels the AKC registration is valuable to them, I won't register as havanese. 

If someone wants one from the litter to be registered as a Havanese, then I'll register the litter but ask the other individuals to without the registration papers from the AKC. 

In talking to other Silk Dog breeders, the vast majority are just not registering with the AKC at all. At this point there really isn't a "benefit" to us to do so. 

Does that help answer your question? It's just like showing in the Havanese ring. So few Silk Dogs are showing in the AKC it's ridiculous......yet the impression is that many of them are still showing.


----------



## Sunnygirl

The litter my two came from was registered with both AKC and HSDAA. They were born in April, and HSDAA was announced in June, so it makes sense that they were registered with both - there was no HSDAA with which to register them when they were born in April. Although I don't know for certain, my impression is that my breeder is not planning to register future litters as Havanese with the AKC.


----------



## Kathy

freeway1976 said:


> Ann,
> 
> Yeah, I asked that very question a while back but did not get a 'real' answer... lol..
> On the HSD website it states:
> 
> At this point in time, the Havana Silk Dog is a breed unto itself, _separate and distinct from the Havanese_, with its own standard, its own Parent Club, its own registry and its own championship titles.
> 
> So... I'll ask the question AGAIN.....
> 
> If the above statement is TRUE, then why would this 'distinct' breed want to register as the Havanese? I understant that the HSD still fits the Hav standard, but the above statement says it all! So why register as a Havanese after making such a bold statement as above?
> 
> Greg, your thoughts?
> 
> Thanks,
> Ryan


Ryan,
Dang it, you pulled me back into this mess! :frusty: Your question is what has been repeatedly asked by too many. The answer, like so many answer's given, changes with the wind. Like I have said before, the gene's might be the same, but the claim and intentions aren't. If HSDAA has their own forum now, I suggest anyone with questions about HSD's go there to get them answered, as this is a Havanese forum. I am sure Greg and Tom and many other's would be happy to respond on the HSD forum.

Kathy (not stirring the pot, just asking for it to stop)


----------



## Beamer

Greg,

Thanks for the response...

Is there a HSD forum in the works, such as this one? I know the Yahoo groups have, but I cannot stand Yahoo groups! ughhh... this stems back to when I used to be a day trader and had to fight with yahoo posters 24/7.. lol


----------



## JASHavanese

Kathy said:


> Kathy (not stirring the pot, just asking for it to stop)


I'm with you Kathy.


----------



## Melissa Miller

I agree with Kathy, if you are SO against being Havanese and registering as so with the AKC, then WHY continue to stir the pot here? On a HAVANESE forum? I _tried _to understand your purpose, ( the HSDAA) and I asked many questions of many people, I just could NOT accept it. There are too many ugly things that are not out in the public eye.

Greg whether or not you health test before you breed or you have a Havanese or a HSDAA or a purple monkey, that is YOUR business. I just ask that you dont come on and try to recruit people here and try to make a case for the cult. I understand you are trying to defend yourself from public accusations, however these arguments would be better on YOUR HSD forum. I can only see you being here as a political agenda. 
Before you tell me I am wrong... I will provide the example of you posting POODLE photos in the Gallery. We ALL know that is Jans dog and you were trying to get under her skin. Don't use my forum to do that.

In any case, take the argument and name calling with Jan OFF of THIS forum. Humor is one thing, but it is getting carried away where it is a private argument taking place publicly.

RYAN... BACK to my Purple Monkey example. Their website SAYS they are a separate breed, it doesn't make it so with the AKC. So in the AKC eyes they are still Havanese and come from Havanese parents so they can register.

Greg, Maybe people say they are still showing because we are SEEING them in the ring.

I edited some of this because I decided to talk to Greg privately.


----------



## marbenv

Kathy,

Does that mean that if we have a registered HSD,we are no longer welcome on this forum?? Your post sounded that way.

Marsha


----------



## Dawna

Marsha,
I don't believe Kathy or Melissa is saying that AT ALL.
The thing is, if you have questions about HSD, they will probably be answered better on an HSD forum than here. Also, if people that are no longer interested in being involved with the Havanese breed are using this forum for political/personal purposes, they need to stop. Or leave. 
Dawna


----------



## marbenv

Janet,

Very well said. I was also researching the Havanese as a pet when this all came down. I also was searching for a reputable breeder and found one and found the puppy that I fell in love with, when I really had no plans to get one yet, but when love calls--who can resist??? And by the way--that breeder was Greg.

Marsha


----------



## Beamer

Hi Marsha!

Have you posted pic of your little Oscar? Would you be able to post a couple here? (that was the intent of this thread, anyhow.. lol)
Who are his parents if you dont mind me asking?

Thanks!
Ryan


----------



## JASHavanese

marbenv said:


> Kathy,
> 
> Does that mean that if we have a registered HSD,we are no longer welcome on this forum?? Your post sounded that way.
> 
> Marsha


I didn't get that from her post at all Marsha. What I saw her say is that if people *have questions about 'another breed' that they ask questions about it in their forum* instead of this one especially with emotions running so high.


----------



## marbenv

Dawna,

I understand what you are saying. And for the most part, everyone has still been kind, but I can tell you that my feeling has been that if I wanted to be a part of this forum, which I have continued to be, because I enjoy it and the wealth of caring, knowledgeable people I have found here, then I felt as though I had better "stay in the closet" if I still wanted to be warmly accepted here. The majority of us are just pet owners, looking for support about our dogs. This is the best place in the world to go for that. 

Marsha


----------



## Dawna

_*This is the best place in the world to go for that*_

Yes, it absolutely is. That's why I'm glad Melissa won't allow it to be used for a political agenda.
Dawna


----------



## marbenv

*Oscar*

Ryan,

I will be happy to post pictures. He's a little scruffy, but here he is! His parents are Joliet Jake and Twins Agent Eleven (Dottie) He'll be 5 months old in 2 weeks.

Marsha


----------



## Laurief

What a cutie!!!


----------



## JASHavanese

marbenv said:


> Ryan,
> 
> I will be happy to post pictures.
> Marsha


He's a cutie Marsha!


----------



## Greg

Jennifer was talking like she wanted to keep him.............but when Marsha & Ben came to visit it was love at first sight. Oscar is a real cool dog. Our entire famlily is greatful for Marsha & Ben and the loving home they've given him.


----------



## marbenv

Thanks Laurie and Jan,

I think so, too!! He's so funny, he makes us laugh every day.

M.


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## marbenv

And I would like to add that Greg and Jennifer and Brennen are a wonderful family and have become good friends and I am thankful for them and the way they have supported us with Oscar.

Marsha


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## Olliesmom

We're related!!! Lets see if I can get this right.....

Austin's granddam is Twinsagent Eleven and Jake's great grandsire is Austin's grandsire....*phew!!??!!*...not sure if that is correct - but I gave it a try!!! ound: ound:

Welcome family!!


----------



## irnfit

"its own championship titles"????? Aren't these titles they earned as Havanese?


----------



## juliav

Oscar is a real cutie and he reminds me a lot of Sully and Oreo.


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## irnfit

Oscar is a real cute pup. I am sure you are welcome to remain on the forum. After all, not too long ago, he was a Havanese.


----------



## Amy R.

Greg seems a fine fellow. And he's an excellent and articulate spokesperson for the HSD. I have appreciated and learned from his contributions here re the current dispute, though have taken them with a grain of salt, given his obvious bias. (Everyone cherry-picks their facts and revises history to support their personal agenda.) I have visited his website, think his dogs are gorgeous, and if I were to get another dog, would certainly consider one of his puppies. And to me, as a happy pet Hav owner, this debate is mostly merely academic and interesting, not life-altering.

_That being said, _ I'm beginning also to find Greg's use of this Forum ---a HAVANESE forum established by Melissa, an ardent Havanese connoisseur, expressly for the purpose of appreciating the HAVANESE breed ----to promote the HSD breed and simultaneously spurn this breed, as rather self-serving and in poor taste indeed.

As far as happy HSD owners like Marsha joining this Forum, that's fine with moi and everyone else, I'm sure. Everyone's welcome. But I do feel, as Melissa put it so well, that it's all been said by now---what is this, the THIRD humongous thread??, ---and that promotion and info re the HSD breed is at this point, more appropriately placed on the HSD forum.


----------



## marbenv

Catherine,

So another relative here!! It's always fun to follow the links!

And Julia,
I've always thought a resemblance to Oreo, too. I forget who Sully belongs to.

And Michele,

Thank you and you are right.

And Amy,

Three VERY LONG threads are more than enough!! I would think that all the questions have been answered and asked more than once.

Marsha


----------



## Janet Zee

*Kathy,*



Kathy said:


> Ryan,
> Dang it, you pulled me back into this mess! :frusty: Your question is what has been repeatedly asked by too many. The answer, like so many answer's given, changes with the wind. Like I have said before, the gene's might be the same, but the claim and intentions aren't. If HSDAA has their own forum now, I suggest anyone with questions about HSD's go there to get them answered, as this is a Havanese forum. I am sure Greg and Tom and many other's would be happy to respond on the HSD forum.
> 
> Kathy (not stirring the pot, just asking for it to stop)


Are you asking all the HSD parents to leave this forum?? What is happening here, what happened to all those wonderful people who have helped all us newbies with such great info and held our hands when we needed it and gave us hugs and confidence? We don't matter anymore, just like that we are to be cut off from all the friends we have made and the laughs we all had TOGETHER, the heartbreaks we all shared TOGETHER. What happened to all those wonderful and caring people?


----------



## juliav

Janet Zee said:


> Are you asking all the HSD parents to leave this forum?? What is happening here, what happened to all those wonderful people who have helped all us newbies with such great info and held our hands when we needed it and gave us hugs and confidence? We don't matter anymore, just like that we are to be cut off from all the friends we have made and the laughs we all had TOGETHER, the heartbreaks we all shared TOGETHER. What happened to all those wonderful and caring people?


Janet,

I am not Kathy, but she is *not* asking you to leave, we love all Havs and HSD (to me they are still one and the same dog!  ). We are just a little tired of the HSD debates and the "our dogs are better than yours" claims.


----------



## Lina

Janet Zee said:


> Are you asking all the HSD parents to leave this forum?? What is happening here, what happened to all those wonderful people who have helped all us newbies with such great info and held our hands when we needed it and gave us hugs and confidence? We don't matter anymore, just like that we are to be cut off from all the friends we have made and the laughs we all had TOGETHER, the heartbreaks we all shared TOGETHER. What happened to all those wonderful and caring people?


Janet I don't think that is what Kathy meant *at all*. She means (and I personally do agree) that if you have questions pertaining in particular to HSDs to go ask that on their forum. If you are here just to ask questions on your dog (be they an HSD or Havanese - they are all Havanese to me anyway), then you are more than welcome. Things that are specifically HSD only should not be asked on this forum. If all you want to do is to share owning your beautiful puppy with us through pictures, stories and advice, we will welcome you with open arms! eace:

Kathy, sorry if I'm stepping on your toes here, just posted what I thought you meant!


----------



## RedHeadedGator

Marsha -

Boy has Oscar been growing up into a real cutie! Please post more pictures soon - he is absolutely adorable!


----------



## Greg

I'd be all for keeping HSD topics off this forum. We do have a couple of lists for HSDs and we are more than happy to answer questions on there..........probably much better answers there than I can ever give.


----------



## marbenv

Thanks Cathy,

He's really getting big. We still have to do that play date this fall!

Marsha


----------



## RedHeadedGator

Yeah! A Florida playdate!! My girls are definitely up for it. Now I just wish that Fall would hurry up and get here :biggrin1:


----------



## lfung5

I second greg's idea.


----------



## Havtahava

Oscar and Austin have their bigger, older (sis & niece) here also. I just took this picture of her yesterday. She usually prefers to duck into a crate for her afternoon nap, but I caught her curled up on a bed yesterday so I snagged a photo of the princess:


----------



## irnfit

Hillary looks so pretty and content.


----------



## Janet Zee

juliav said:


> Janet,
> 
> I am not Kathy, but she is *not* asking you to leave, we love all Havs and HSD (to me they are still one and the same dog!  ). We are just a little tired of the HSD debates and the "our dogs are better than yours" claims.


Thank you so much for taking the time to explain what she meant. I guess I was just being a little too sensitive. I am just as tired of these debates as well. Our babies are very precious to each of us no matter what they may be called. Thank you again.

All the best,


----------



## Kathy

Lina said:


> Janet I don't think that is what Kathy meant *at all*. She means (and I personally do agree) that if you have questions pertaining in particular to HSDs to go ask that on their forum. If you are here just to ask questions on your dog (be they an HSD or Havanese - they are all Havanese to me anyway), then you are more than welcome. Things that are specifically HSD only should not be asked on this forum. If all you want to do is to share owning your beautiful puppy with us through pictures, stories and advice, we will welcome you with open arms! eace:
> 
> Kathy, sorry if I'm stepping on your toes here, just posted what I thought you meant!


Lina,
My toes have not been stepped on. You said it very well, thank you.


----------



## Kathy

marbenv said:


> Dawna,
> 
> I understand what you are saying. And for the most part, everyone has still been kind, but I can tell you that my feeling has been that if I wanted to be a part of this forum, which I have continued to be, because I enjoy it and the wealth of caring, knowledgeable people I have found here, then I felt as though I had better "stay in the closet" if I still wanted to be warmly accepted here. The majority of us are just pet owners, looking for support about our dogs. This is the best place in the world to go for that.
> 
> Marsha


Marsha,
I am sorry you and other's feel that way, I can understand why you feel that too. When this split happened, a lot was said in a very negative way about Havanese breeders in general. Like Melissa said, alot of behind the scenes stuff too. You have a Havanese as far as I am concerned, but your breeder has chosen to call it something else and breed towards a different standard then I choose to breed toward. I don't think the founders of the HSDAA thought about how the puppy buyer population would be left to feel when all of this came down.

Your puppy is adorable by the way, no matter what "breed" he is called. <grin>


----------



## Beamer

Ok, one final question from me...It might already be answered in one of the oher threads, but how would i ever search for it?? (the key word would bring up 100's of replies)

Why do the Havana Silk dogs whom were registered with the AKC under the Havanese breed keep there regerstration still? When these dogs got registered as an HSD, why is it not a requirement by the HSD to lose the Havanese registration? (I'm assuming yor can unregister a dog in the AKC??)

Thanks!
Ryan


----------



## Julie

Ryan,
I'm not a breeder---but having followed this breed breakup-----the Havana silks are NOT an AKC recognised breed.Since this break up was recent,up until now they were ALL havanese.


----------



## Beamer

Hi Julie!
Oh, I know they are not a recognised breed within the AKC. My question is, once they register to be a HSD within their own group, why do they not un-register from the AKC as a Havanese? Is it even possible to do that?


----------



## Julie

Oh,I'm sorry......I don't know if you can un-register?I would guess it would not benefit them either way.I know they can Dual register.......but remember they are registering themselves somehow,not through AKC.....then as havanese as that is recognised as a breed.Think of it like registering a white german shepherd:
you can register it as a german shepherd
you could register it yourself in it's own club of white german shepherdseace:


----------



## Havtahava

I don't know for sure, but my guess is that you cannot unregister a dog. The AKC can revoke your registration, but I don't think an owner/breeder can. That would be a royal headache for them (AKC) to handle.


----------



## dboudreau

freeway1976 said:


> Ok, one final question from me...It might already be answered in one of the oher threads, but how would i ever search for it?? (the key word would bring up 100's of replies)
> 
> Why do the Havana Silk dogs whom were registered with the AKC under the Havanese breed keep there regerstration still? When these dogs got registered as an HSD, why is it not a requirement by the HSD to lose the Havanese registration? (I'm assuming yor can unregister a dog in the AKC??)
> 
> Thanks!
> Ryan


Like Julie said, the HSD is not a recognized breed by the AKC or any other Registering body, re FCI or CKC etc. And it will take years to sort that out. But if anyone that wants to participate in any AKC events like obedience, Rally O, and agility they have to register their dogs as AKC Havanese.

I think puppy purchasers should be aware of this. Pet owners may not want to show in the conformation ring, but may have lots of fun with the other events. If the dogs are only registered with the HSD this option is gone.


----------



## Leeann

This is a very good point Debbie. Competing in AKC event is something I never thought about when I first got Riley.
When Riley first came home I decided to take some obedience classes for the fact that I have never owned a dog before and did not even have a clue as to how to make him sit.. Little did I know how addicting and fun these classes would be. I am now training Ry in agility and I have also started my little guy Monte in obedience. I love the fact that if I choose to try and compete having my AKC registration will give me more options.


----------



## irnfit

So they can have their cake and eat it to??!!


----------



## Havtahava

irnfit said:


> So they can have their cake and eat it to??!!


 What do you mean, Michele?

Debbie, I hadn't thought of that. AKC does have one allowance for dogs that are not AKC registered that would like to compete. They can apply for an ILP number. The dog must be spayed or neutered to apply. More info here. Granted, it would be a whole lot easier if the puppy had just been registered from birth by the breeder because paternity is noted that way.


----------



## irnfit

They are claiming not to be Havanese now, but are registered Havanese up to this point, and can still show and compete as Havanese. I do like the fact that neutered dogs will have a category so they can compete, also.


----------



## dboudreau

Havtahava said:


> What do you mean, Michele?
> 
> Debbie, I hadn't thought of that. AKC does have one allowance for dogs that are not AKC registered that would like to compete. They can apply for an ILP number. The dog must be spayed or neutered to apply. More info here. Granted, it would be a whole lot easier if the puppy had just been registered from birth by the breeder because paternity is noted that way.


I thought of that, but it would still have to be a Havanese! Right? It says "unregistered dog" of a registered breed.


----------



## Havtahava

I see what you are saying, but they can't change the past - how the dogs were originally registered. The dogs have been registered as Havanese in the past, and will remain Havanese according to AKC (for the time being anyway). From what Greg said, they are not (or at least, he is not) registering current litters as Havanese unless the new owner asks.

Frankly, in my experience, most puppy owners don't really even care about the registration so long as they know they have a purebred. I know many owners that haven't even mailed in their registration papers.


----------



## Havtahava

dboudreau said:


> I thought of that, but it would still have to be called a Havanese! Right?


With AKC, yes, but so are all of the ones that are currently owned except for maybe a few litters of puppies that have not been registered yet. They can call them Havana Silk Dogs, but if you look them up through AKC, they are still Havanese. The two names are not mutually exclusive yet.


----------



## Leeann

Havtahava said:


> What do you mean, Michele?
> 
> Debbie, I hadn't thought of that. AKC does have one allowance for dogs that are not AKC registered that would like to compete. They can apply for an ILP number. The dog must be spayed or neutered to apply. More info here. Granted, it would be a whole lot easier if the puppy had just been registered from birth by the breeder because paternity is noted that way.


Thanks Kimberly I did not realize this was available. When looking at the application it does state:

Neither this dog nor its parents are registered or identified anywhere as a breed other than that stated on this application.

Do you think this could be a problem for owners whom puppies are registered/identifies as Havana Silks? I personally would hope not, they are still purebred and should be able to compete if chosen.

I think Debbie brought up such a good point if someone is looking for a puppy and considering dog sports they should be aware of the road blocks they may run into.
Wether I agree with the split or not I would hate to see someone loose out on the joy of these sports and am glad Greg is allowing his puppy buyers to register with AKC for these reasons.


----------



## Leeann

O.K. Kimberly as I way typing you changed your Avatar soooo cute..


----------



## Havtahava

lbkar said:


> Thanks Kimberly I did not realize this was available. When looking at the application it does state:
> 
> Neither this dog nor its parents are registered or identified anywhere as a breed other than that stated on this application.
> 
> Do you think this could be a problem for owners whom puppies are registered/identifies as Havana Silks?


Oh Leeann, I never looked at the application. Interesting! I just heard about it because the AKC is offering an ILP clinic at one of our local shows in a few weeks and I was learning about it with another person. That clause puts a bit of a monkey wrench into it. I should email AKC and ask.

But, yes, I think it nice that Greg is doing this for people who want to have the AKC registration on their dog.


----------



## Beamer

*Dog Fancy*

Hey all.. Many of you might have already seen this before....maybe not.

I was looking at the classified section in this months Dog Fancy magazine and saw a pretty anti-havanese advert. in the Havanese section.

*DON'T BUY BLIND -- Prevent HEARTbreak! Before buying a Havanese please visit www.havaneseheart.org for up-to-date information on health problems in the breed. H.E.A.R.T. the 501(c)3 Havanese Health Foundation.*

The above link takes you to the homepage of the Havanese.org (HCA)website.

Why would the HCA advertise about this???? odd..


----------



## Havtahava

I wouldn't call that anti-Havanese; that's educating people about the problems they should try to avoid in the breed. Unfortunately, the link is empty right now because all of the health information has been pulled temporarily.


----------



## Beamer

Yeah, I noticed that there is no health info up... Thats money well spent.. lol


----------



## Havtahava

It was just pulled recently for editing. It will be back up very soon.


----------



## Sunnygirl

If the link in fact takes you to the HCA website, I don't see why it would be anti-Havanese. I would think that the Havanese parent club wants all prospective puppy buyers to be well informed about the breed, health related and otherwise. And I'm sure the HCA would like to steer buyers to reputable breeders as opposed to puppy mills. There is still a breeder referral on the website, right? The only problem is that the health section of the website is down right now, but all the other good stuff is still there, and I think every prospective buyer should read what's there.


----------



## JASHavanese

freeway1976 said:


> Hey all.. Many of you might have already seen this before....maybe not.
> 
> I was looking at the classified section in this months Dog Fancy magazine and saw a pretty anti-havanese advert. in the Havanese section.
> 
> *DON'T BUY BLIND -- Prevent HEARTbreak! Before buying a Havanese please visit www.havaneseheart.org for up-to-date information on health problems in the breed. H.E.A.R.T. the 501(c)3 Havanese Health Foundation.*
> 
> The above link takes you to the homepage of the Havanese.org (HCA)website.
> 
> Why would the HCA advertise about this???? odd..


I believe that link used to take you to the HEART website promoting the hsd.


----------



## Thumper

It is probably just to encourage prospective *owners* to do their research and pick a breeder that does health testing.

Wowwwww! Did this thread liven up while I was away.

I don't think this argument is going to go away anytime soon, people will keep asking questions about it. And there is always someone here to answer them, almost instantly......on both sides...

Jan, you are a hoot. ound: Oh and Vicki......LMAO! Crazy woman!!!

Kara


----------



## Kathy

freeway1976 said:


> Hey all.. Many of you might have already seen this before....maybe not.
> 
> I was looking at the classified section in this months Dog Fancy magazine and saw a pretty anti-havanese advert. in the Havanese section.
> 
> *DON'T BUY BLIND -- Prevent HEARTbreak! Before buying a Havanese please visit www.havaneseheart.org for up-to-date information on health problems in the breed. H.E.A.R.T. the 501(c)3 Havanese Health Foundation.*
> 
> The above link takes you to the homepage of the Havanese.org (HCA)website.
> 
> Why would the HCA advertise about this???? odd..


I know for a fact this DID NOT COME FROM THE HCA!!!! The H.E.A.R.T. web site no longer represents our Havanese breed, but rather promotes the HSD. This is an action, in my opinion, to only make the Havanese breed seem less healthy then the HSD's. The majority of the dogs that participated in the study referenced on the H.E.A.R.T., web site are owned by people that are now leaders in the HSDAA. So, what would one conclude from that?


----------



## Beamer

Hi Kathy..
That what I thought, but everyone here did not think so for whatever reason... I just do not understand why the link takes you to the HCA website? Why not some website with a bunch of lies on it? lol

Ok, after reading Gregs msg, that makes sense... 

Ryan


----------



## Greg

HEART actually made the ad buy months ago before anyone was considering breaking away. This is just one of several that came out this year. I'm not sure how many they bought or when the last one will appear......I doubt there were very many in the first place.

There wasn't/isn't a conspiracy concerning these ads. 

I know the coincidence is irritating to some. I don't mean to belittle your feelings.


----------



## JASHavanese

Greg said:


> HEART actually made the ad buy months ago before anyone was considering breaking away. This is just one of several that came out this year. I'm not sure how many they bought or when the last one will appear......I doubt there were very many in the first place.
> 
> There wasn't/isn't a conspiracy concerning these ads.
> 
> I know the coincidence is irritating to some. I don't mean to belittle your feelings.


Yawn.  This 'new breed' stuff was being planned before the 2006 National.


----------



## JASHavanese

freeway1976 said:


> Hi Kathy..
> That what I thought, but everyone here did not think so for whatever reason... I just do not understand why the link takes you to the HCA website? Why not some website with a bunch of lies on it? lol
> 
> Ok, after reading Gregs msg, that makes sense...
> 
> Ryan


It used to go to the website they wanted you at. The board of the HCA stepped in and changed the link to stay on the HCA website instead of directing you to a bunch of .....um....er...... :brushteeth:


----------



## JASHavanese

Thumperlove said:


> It is probably just to encourage prospective *owners* to do their research and pick a breeder that does health testing.
> 
> Wowwwww! Did this thread liven up while I was away.
> 
> I don't think this argument is going to go away anytime soon, people will keep asking questions about it. And there is always someone here to answer them, almost instantly......on both sides...
> 
> Jan, you are a hoot. ound: Oh and Vicki......LMAO! Crazy woman!!!
> 
> Kara


Kara, what can you do but laugh at it? They're so lost they don't know if they're coming or going. One day they broke off for this reason, :flypig: the next day they broke off for that reason. It could make your head spin if you tried to keep up with it.....so why bother. And the secret society has members that you'd never believe!! :flypigid you know that? :flypig:That's what we've heard from day one. Yawn. There were people laughing at the National and making fun of this new um... breed... because rumor had it that they joined this secret society and the rumor came from a mouthpiece of the siesta havers.:laugh: They're yesterday's news. Yawn.


----------



## Greg

freeway1976 said:


> Hi Kathy..
> I just do not understand why the link takes you to the HCA website?
> 
> Ryan


Maybe my link is messed up because when I click havaneseheart.org I get the HEART website. Am I the only one?


----------



## Leeann

Greg said:


> Maybe my link is messed up because when I click havaneseheart.org I get the HEART website. Am I the only one?


Greg it's funny when this was first posted and I clicked it I got the HCA and now I get HEART. Something must have boobooed.


----------



## Thumper

No,

I get the "Heart" website, too.

Kara


----------



## Doc

*H.E.A.R.T.*



JASHavanese said:


> It used to go to the website they wanted you at. The board of the HCA stepped in and changed the link to stay on the HCA website instead of directing you to a bunch of .....um....er...... :brushteeth:


Why would you even say something stupid like this without having a clue what you are talking about? www.havaneseheart.org URL is up and running. The HCA had nothing do with with the glitch that temporarily caused the DNS pointers to be flipped. They are now fixed and the link is once more restored. H.E.A.R.T. was the ONLY organization dedicated to Havanese health and did a fantastic job at raising money and funding research for the Havanese. It fulfilled its function and is now in the process of being retired and instead of wasting time and energy trying to denigrate it and the important work that it funded, I would suggest that you focus your energy on continuing to work in the best interest of YOUR breed, the Havanese.

You can rag on HSDAA all you want but we are doing just fine, thank you. We are enjoying our dogs, looking forward to activies with people who have a common goal and are dedicated to OUR breed. I would suggest that the Havanese commity focus its energy on the Havanese...you are wasting so much energy obsessing about what WE are doing that you can't get anything done for HCA and the Havanese. If I were you I'd be far more concerned why there has been NO health information on the HCA website since June. Get busy volunteering to fill the vacancies on the committees there so HCA can once more be a functional club.

The H.E.A.R.T. ads have been running in Dog Fancy, Dog World and Dog's USA for YEARS and you are just noticing them now? They have nothing to do with the HSDs...the ads were renewed for a year before we ever thought of splitting (which was in April 2007, NOT before the 2006 National...keep making it up as you go along, Jan) and will run until the period is done at which time they will not be renewed so deal with it.

Start looking to your own house...you are not hurting us with your blathering, conspiracy theories, lies and harrassment...you are simply wasting your time and energy that would more productively be spent working for the Havanese so *I* can stop getting those all too frequent emails asking for help with sick Havanese...I'm a vet...I simply cannot ignore these pleas for help...it's heartbreaking.


----------



## Amy R.

Doc--I am a member of this Forum, a pet Havanese owner, and like the majority of members here, have no agenda whatsoever in the Havanese vs. Havana Silk Dog debate/schism. Having said that, and with all due respect to your expertise, experience, and authority ( I own and very much enjoy your and Diane's book ), I find the tone of your post offensive and entirely inappropriate, especially given that this is the HAVANESE forum, and your apparent adversary isn't the only person reading it. There is a far more cilvilized way to say exactly what you've said. If you have a private dispute with someone, then please PM them and keep it private. Your scolding tone certainly detracts from your case, and alienates those of us, like me, who are pretty much observing from the sidelines, with our dogs' best interest our only concern. Thank you.


----------



## TnTWalter

*Breaking in.....*

:argue: :deadhorse: :boink: :brick: :lalala: :fencing:

You know....this COULD HAVE been a neat thread where we could see 
pictures of dogs classified as havana silk.

I thought it would be neat to see what they look like.

But gosh I think even the OP started this same tired debate [sorry Ryan].

Why again? Why...Why...Why? LOL

So I'm taking another for the team here to give you some STRAIGHT TALK...

Who am I talking to???? YOU....and you know who you are....

By YOU I mean all of YOU that continue to 
attack each other back and forth; especially to those of you 
that only come out when this issue gets brought up....
and even you nice pet owners that are a tad obsessed 
about where your dog fits into all this.....

READY? :director:

I am grabbing an imaginary ruler and smacking you all on the hands....
because you're acting like a bunch of 5 year olds
.....with your "mine is better than yours"...playground mentality!

You will not change each other's opinions. 
You may be right, they may be right.
You both may be right to some degree. 
They're not going to change your mind, are they?
You are just as pig headed as they are...really.
You can't see it because you're too busy being right.

Get over yourselves. Grab a beer or cup of tea
and chill the heck out!

:tea: :kiss: :yield:

P.S. Wouldn't it have been nice to see pics of dogs 
and their proud owners and we could oooh and ahhh.


----------



## anneks

:amen:


----------



## Amy R.

Bravo, Trish.:whoo: I especially take issue with those who only pop up to hurl another brick or fire another salvo, to in effect exploit this forum (which is, I repeat, the HAVANESE forum) , and otherwise contribute nothing to the wonderful sense of community here. It's absolutely selfish, ludicrous, and childish . For heaven's sake, get a life.


----------



## Julie

TnTWalter said:


> You know....this COULD HAVE been a neat thread where we could see
> pictures of dogs classified as havana silk.
> 
> I thought it would be neat to see what they look like.
> 
> So I'm taking another for the team here to give you some STRAIGHT TALK...
> 
> Who am I talking to???? YOU....and you know who you are...
> ..and even you nice pet owners that are a tad obsessed
> about where your dog fits into all this.....
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I've kept quiet for quite awhile :tape:
> Now my tape is coming off!
> 
> If you want to see havana silk dogs go to there **** sites......quit asking here---if you think you have such a thing--think it--I don't give a crap,but quit stirring it up...:rant:
> 
> I don't think I'm obsessed about where my dog fits in as a pet owner,but I do **** well stand up for people who are being picked on,pointed out,and treated unfairly.I've been that way my whole life...this breed break up crap just brings out the worst in people because it has hurt people on both sides.I'm not going to stop defending the people who made this breed what it is.......that is Dorothy and Liz and others.Like it or not....those are FACTS people!If you didn't have Dorothy,Liz and others--you wouldn't even have a darn dog--call it havanese or havana silk.eace:


----------



## Thumper

What is happening to the *"Safe Haven"* that Melissa created?

Correct me if I am wrong, but I presume this Forum was created out of Melissa's love and passion for the Havanese Breed. (Thank you!) A wonderful, unique place where Pet owners, Breeders, Show dogs/owners can share their experiences, knowledge, and *PASSION and LOVE* for Havanese.

These condescending insinuations/accusations/opinions towards the people has to stop. This is the HAVANESE forum. The Yorkshire Terrier owners aren't here slandering and picking fights for cripes sake. :frusty: Cant' some of these arguments be done in private..via email?

I hope I am *NOT* the only one that feels this way, but I like coming here to CELEBRATE MY LIFE with my Havanese.

It really *isn't fair* to those of us that want to share our love, stories, and passion for our breed...and utilize this place for the purposes that it was originally intended. Whether you have a Havanese or an HSD, lets GET ALONG and live peacefully!

Sorry if I spoke too harsh, but the tension is really taking a toll.

Kara


----------



## Sissygirl

I agree that is a safe haven for the Havanese Family!

I don't know what Sissy is - Havanese or Havana Silk - but I don't care!

I love her and hope her health is well. I hope that through this forum I can learn to educate people about going through reputable breeders who
have the love for this breed who will do their best to breed only healthy dogs.

If anyone asks me about Sissy, I tell them to find a reputable breeder and research this breed before they decide on a fit for their family.


----------



## abuelashavanese

Thumperlove said:


> What is happening to the *"Safe Haven"* that Melissa created?
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong, but I presume this Forum was created out of Melissa's love and passion for the Havanese Breed. (Thank you!) A wonderful, unique place where Pet owners, Breeders, Show dogs/owners can share their experiences, knowledge, and *PASSION and LOVE* for Havanese.
> 
> These condescending insinuations/accusations/opinions towards the *Havanese* breed has to stop. This is the HAVANESE forum. The Yorkshire Terrier owners aren't here slandering and picking fights for cripes sake. :frusty: Cant' some of these arguments be done in private..via email?
> 
> I hope I am *NOT* the only one that feels this way, but I like coming here to CELEBRATE MY LIFE with my Havanese.
> 
> It really *isn't fair* to those of us that want to share our love, stories, and passion for our breed...and utilize this place for the purposes that it was originally intended.
> 
> Sorry if I spoke too harsh, but the tension is really taking a toll.
> 
> Kara


Thank you KARA -- my thoughts exactly !


----------



## Amy R.

Standing O, Kara !! :whoo:


----------



## marjrc

AMEN to so many of you who have stated it quite nicely. This IS the Havanese forum and those who want to disturb the s**t by asking provocative questions need to do it privately or at the HSD forum. Seriously. 

I'm all for education and I love a good debate - just ask my family - but when it comes to insults and mud slinging, I agree it has gone too far and needs to stop in this forum. I feel like I need a shower from all the dirt that is being brought up. 

I also have NO PROBLEM whatsoever welcoming HSD owners to our wonderful space on the web. It's been said before, and we try to reassure any Havanese owner that they are most welcome here. Most of us consider a Hav a Hav and we'd love to enjoy the love you share for the breed! Please don't feel that you have to hide or be put aside. That is not what most of us here are about.

I've been a member for a while and as ex-Queen Yakker (I've been de-throned a couple of times!), I can tell you, from experience, that this is a great place to unwind, share your stories, vent your worries and frustrations and get a laugh or three.

What I suggest is all those no longer interested in the direction this thread is taking, please avoid reading any of the posts and avoid replying to them. The thread will die out for lack of interest and the name-calling and Hav bashing can happen somewhere else. I, for one, am now boycotting this thread. I don't need the negative energy in my life either. As Kara said, the tension is taking its toll.


----------



## irnfit

I think at this point, with 2 lengthy threads on this topic, it is played out. As Hav owners and lovers, we will always feel slighted by what the HSDAA has said on public forums. Especially since all their dogs started out as Havs. 

I kind of agree with Doc, in a way. We should spend this much energy, and typing, by getting involved with the HCA. We are a huge voice to be heard. By a few suggestions, they have already begun revisions to their website. Maybe we should act as a watchdog group for the breed. We need to "out" the bad breeders and praise the really good ones. Sorry, just my 2cents.


----------



## Paige

I have NO problem with the Hsd OWNERS, they have been nothing but polite and share stories of their fur babies and themselves. This is no way is directed at you. It's the breeders that drive me nuts. Why are you on here, why do you think it's okay to come on a havanese forum and act like your dogs are better than ours. Our dogs are our babies. Would it be okay if you started a forum and we went on there and started bashing and arguing that our dogs were better than yours. I have to say it blows my mind that with you being so Anti-Havanese, that you would be on here at all. Really, what is your intention?


I have to say I would never buy a Hsd dog, because you guys have shown your ass over and over again, so if you are trying to convince us that your dogs are better, I really think you are doing the totally opposite. 


If you went away today, it really wouldn't be too soon for me.

Sorry If I have offended anyone besides the Hsd breeders, it wasn't my intention.


----------



## Thumper

I am sorry if I didnt' articulate myself better. I in no way want to offend some of the wonderful HSD pet owners that are here *peacefully* sharing love and laughter with us. That is not my intention. IF I came off that way, my apologies.

In a perfect world...the powers that be would've worked TOGETHER and put their differences aside and focused on the betterment of the breed as a whole, as a team....but that's just not the way it is now, so we have to move on and cut the umbilical cord.

I personally don't care whether my dog falls under one criteria or another, she is beautiful to me inside and out...and that is a universal feeling for all of us.

I just remember when I first found this forum and we were celebrating the LOVE for our breed....instead of "defending" it.

Kara


----------



## Havtahava

I haven't read every message in detail, but where do you guys see anyone bashing Havanese breeders as a whole? I don't see it.

Unfortunately, there _are_ Havanese breeders who don't care about the welfare of the puppies they produce. There _are_ Havanese breeders who do not do health testing, despite our parent club recommending it. There _are_ Havanese who just think that picking a male & female to mate so they can make some $ is OK. There _are_ Havanese breeders who keep breeding dogs with bad fronts. There _are_ Havanese breeders who think that chondrodysplasia doesn't exist or that it is not a problem. Not all breeders are this way, but there are enough that it is going to take a long time to change things.

I think all of us, no matter whether we are a breeder or a person who just loves our dogs, need to encourage the breeders to have some integrity and stick to a higher level of accountability.

I really try to encourage anyone interested in breeding to evaluate their dogs against the standard so they can learn more about what they should be breeding towards, to do the health testing, and to show their dogs so they can get outside opinions from people who know dogs. If they can do those things, and soap their dogs to get a good look at what is underneath, they can be a huge asset to the breed and their own breeding programs. There are no perfect dogs, but we might as well keep trying to create as close as possible to the ideal Havanese.


----------



## mckennasedona

Clapping from the sidelines here Kara.......

HSD pet owners, bravo for sharing the Hav forum with us and sharing your puppy questions and photos. Keep em coming. All dogs are to be cherished, be they Havanese, HSD, Dachshund, Yorkie or the All-American Heintz 57 mutt!

Shame on those who pop in just to fuel fires and then leave. 

Susan


----------



## Paige

Havtahava said:


> Unfortunately, there _are_ Havanese breeders who don't care about the welfare of the puppies they produce. There _are_ Havanese breeders who do not do health testing, despite our parent club recommending it. There _are_ Havanese who just think that picking a male & female to mate so they can make some $ is OK. There _are_ Havanese breeders who keep breeding dogs with bad fronts. There _are_ Havanese breeders who think that chondrodysplasia doesn't exist or that it is not a problem. Not all breeders are this way, but there are enough that it is going to take a long time to change things.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Welcome to the world of dog breeding. Is there a breed that the clubs don't encourage certain test for their breed. Some will and some won't. Some do it for money and some don't. This is very unfortunate but you cannot control
> what someone does. Therefore it is up to the puppy buyer to make sure that who they buy from does. It would be great, but unrealistic.


----------



## Havtahava

Paige, my point was that I didn't see anyone bashing Havanese breeders as a whole. Instead of feeling belittled, that we can all work together to educate buyers and encourage breeders to have a higher level of integrity.


----------



## Paige

Kimberely, I still stand behind what I said. I don't see anyother tread, beside the hsd ones, where people are arguing, I will not go back and read all the threads, but the crack pipe comment comes to mind. 

I want my peaceful havanese forum back.


----------



## maryam187

I think everybody here is wasting too much energy and time in a never ending debate. How about y'all go to my thread instead (Please don't faint!!!) and post some more NICE comments about my sweet little macho Pablo to make the long wait easier for me? :biggrin1:
I bet you, no one will think about whether he's a regular super Havanese or a regular super Havana Silk Dog. He's just a super PUPPY!
And now stop this awful thread, before I have to specialize in Gastroenterology to heal y'all's stress induced gastric refluxes, cause I planned on doing reconstructive surgery... ound:


----------



## Gableshavs

Speaking of integrity, I think most of the people on this list have tons of the stuff. I know I've learned so much from this group. Regarding health testing, there was an ad in the Miami Herald for Hav puppies for $600.00. I called the ad and asked if they were from champion parents and what health testing was done. This guy had no clue about the OFA testing for a CHIC number. He said they were from champion bloodlines but the parents were not champions. He said that the puppies were seen by a vet and had a health certifcate. No BAER testing had been done, hey he said you can tell if the puppy is deaf without that test! I guess my point is that education is paramount. People buy dogs from this guy to save a buck not realizing that in the future the expense will be far greater.
Sorry, I'm frustrated that guys like this are getting away with breeding dogs for money. If I didn't read lists like this one I'd never realize that it was so wrong. We're educating each other and the public. And it's very good. You know, I don't agree with the people who split off from Havanese but one thing that is good came out of it, we all stepped up the level of education about the breed, testing and responsible breeding and care.
Paula P.


----------



## Julie

Doc said:


> Why would you even say something stupid like this without having a clue what you are talking about? www.havaneseheart.org URL is up and running. The HCA had nothing do with with the glitch that temporarily caused the DNS pointers to be flipped. They are now fixed and the link is once more restored. H.E.A.R.T. was the ONLY organization dedicated to Havanese health and did a fantastic job at raising money and funding research for the Havanese. It fulfilled its function and is now in the process of being retired and instead of wasting time and energy trying to denigrate it and the important work that it funded, I would suggest that you focus your energy on continuing to work in the best interest of YOUR breed, the Havanese.
> 
> You can rag on HSDAA all you want but we are doing just fine, thank you. We are enjoying our dogs, looking forward to activies with people who have a common goal and are dedicated to OUR breed. I would suggest that the Havanese commity focus its energy on the Havanese...you are wasting so much energy obsessing about what WE are doing that you can't get anything done for HCA and the Havanese. If I were you I'd be far more concerned why there has been NO health information on the HCA website since June. Get busy volunteering to fill the vacancies on the committees there so HCA can once more be a functional club.
> 
> The H.E.A.R.T. ads have been running in Dog Fancy, Dog World and Dog's USA for YEARS and you are just noticing them now? They have nothing to do with the HSDs...the ads were renewed for a year before we ever thought of splitting (which was in April 2007, NOT before the 2006 National...keep making it up as you go along, Jan) and will run until the period is done at which time they will not be renewed so deal with it.
> 
> Start looking to your own house...you are not hurting us with your blathering, conspiracy theories, lies and harrassment...you are simply wasting your time and energy that would more productively be spent working for the Havanese so *I* can stop getting those all too frequent emails asking for help with sick Havanese...I'm a vet...I simply cannot ignore these pleas for help...it's heartbreaking.


Okay---------Kimberly, Is this your idea of having integrity?If so,they should show by example.Please read what this says.It is not nice and keeps the pot stirred.

This is the very thing that insites people...not the havana silk dog.The people saying things like this.I wish everyone would take a "step-up".For heaven's sake---if you would not say the very thing you are about to post to your elderly Grandma-----step back and think about it---are you dis-respecting others?


----------



## juliav

I am so sick and tired of the HSD breeders crawling out from under their respective rocks to stir up trouble on this wonderful and otherwise friendly forum. The only time they show up is to add a bit of fuel to the fire. And even though it may not be directly worded, but every post by HSD breeder somehow implies that the HSD are better (whether it's looks, health, testing..whatever) than the Havanes. I find Doc's post incredibly offensive and the wordinig down right mean. I thought in one of the previous threads (the first one about the brake up) at the end she posted that HSD breeders should leave the forum and get busy with "HSD stuff". Maybe Doc should take her own advice.

I appologize if this sounds bad, I just can't make it sound good at the moment, I am so mad!!!


----------



## Amy R.

Maryam, you are _already_ a wise physician indeed, and your baby Pablo is precious.


----------



## Thumper

Can someone say

ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM

This is not about puppy buyer education, yes it is important but what a few of us are getting at is the big elephant in the room that we keep trying to ignore, hoping that it will somehow vanish and go away...but its not.

We can deflect the issue to bad breeders, etc. but that doesn't make the elephant go away.

Its not fair for Jan (or anyone from any side) to be bashed when she is ON THIS forum day in and day out HELPING people and sharing her time, talent and treasure with the Havanese community. It's just not right, and to make insulting comments regarding crack use, lying, stupidity, etc. is NOT what should be happening here...

Many of us are feeling like this should return to a "safe haven" for the Havanese folks and HSD owners..

The fact is.....there will be people that come on here asking "what is the difference between a Hav and an HSD". It will happen. Period.

I think the point it, we have been ignoring the elephant and it has resulted in alot of tension around here. Why not get it out in the open and figure out how to resolve it and bring the peace back.

Does anyone have any ideas?? We are adults, this is a great community and we can atleast work to bring the tone back to peaceful.

Kara


----------



## Leeann

Thumperlove said:


> Its not fair for Jan to be bashed when she is ON THIS forum day in and day out HELPING people and sharing her time, talent and treasure with the Havanese community. It's just not right, and to make insulting comments regarding crack use, lying, stupidity, etc. is NOT what should be happening here...
> 
> Many of us are feeling like this should return to a "safe haven" for the Havanese folks.
> 
> The fact is.....there will be people that come on here asking "what is the difference between a Hav and an HSD". It will happen. Period.
> 
> Now, will the Havanese breeders and owners be able to answer these questions on the Havanese forum, OR will the HSD come out of the shadows and throw gas on the fire? Or send PM's to them, etc.
> 
> Kara


Kara this is the part that really hits me. If one of us end up with a health issue down the road are we really going to want to post it in fear of another fight breaking out?? eace:

I myself have a few choice words but why bother?? It is not helping anyone.

Julie - Love the new Avatar of Quincy & Sig. of Vincent, they are both adorable.


----------



## Julie

You know what I think is sad?I think everyone of the breeders on both sides are good at what they do...(on this forum,and for the most part outside of here).We all enjoy(or I do) their advice,information and help with our havs.I can honestly say I respect Greg's advice as much as I do Kimberly's,Jan's as much as I do Tom's,Doc's etc.Everyone here may know more then others on certain topics,but collectively you guys are just awesome.Please do not destroy what we have going here.The forum people all hold you guys high on your own pedestals...(humor)...don't make me what to come and knock you off!:fencinglease let's respect each other enough to not bash havanese/havana silk stuff anymore.If you feel very strongly one way or the other and can not accept the other as is,then please exit.....otherwise,please let's get back to some carefree fun!:grouphug:


----------



## Amy R.

That is really well said, Julie. I value everyone's advice here, too. We all do. Especially because it is such a wonderful learning experience for me, and helps me be a better Havanese owner. Everyone of the "pros" who contributes has areas of expertise that enrich us all. 

But if the discussion cannot be civil and cordial and grown-up, and certain legitimate questions cannot be raised out of fear that a tide of personal politics and vitriol will rain down (as Kara rightly fears), then those who choose to wage a personal crusade here should leave. Perhaps it's time for some ground rules. That should be simple: no personal attacks. Ever. Period. 

OK, I will shutup :tape: now and go make myself a tunafish sandwich.


----------



## Laurief

OK This is so not like me but I have to say that I NEVER once read the previous thread on this issue, and only read the first 10 or so posts on this page. Reason I finally read a few posts is that I was informed by a very sweet Hav owner that she may be leaving the forum due to the cruel words exchanged on these threads - I felt so bad and would hate to think that someone would leave such a warm, informing place because of some cruel words.

My statement to her was - WHO CARES!! A dog is a dog is a dog. Chow owners LOVE their Chows and thing they are the best, Maltese owners think the same, as well as every single owner of every single breed. If HDS feels they are "another" breed, of course they are going to think that they are the best, as do Havanese owners.

Please everyone - stop this crazy stuff. I do not like uncomfortable situations like this, and I NEVER get in to them, and to think that it gets to a point that people are attacking each other with "who has the better dog" it is just a little crazy to me!! I love my Havs!! But I also love my rabbit, and my ferret. I dont feel that because I have a sable ferret and not a white one, that she is any better.

Can we PLEASE just put this to rest!!! It is so sillly!! I am sorry if I insulted anyone, and I dont really care why one thinks the other is better or not. All I know is that I have so much love for my pups, and have met some lovely people who have supported me thru a lot, so why cant that continue??

Please dont send me nasty pms or emails, just understand that I am a "dog" owner, who loves my "dog" even though he or she may not have perfect teeth, or legs or behave perfectly.

LETS ALL JUST GET ALONG!! PLEASE!!!!


----------



## Havtahava

Hey, I'm just trying to keep peace.

_Laurie, you posted as I was writing the above sentence and it wasn't directed to you. It was in response to the questions up above addressed to me._


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

If it bothers everyone that much, just stop reading the threads and it will go away. Stop responding to them. I think we can all agree that we disagree on certain things. And when someone brings it all up again, just ignore it. If we dont feed the monster, it will die.


----------



## Beamer

Maybe its time for a *Code of Conduct* for this site? This site has grown imensly since I joined way back in early 2007. I think there was maybe 300 member of whom not to many were actual posters. Now we have over 1300 member with TONS of posting.
I would would just like to say that this is the BEST online community I've ever had the pleasure of being part of! And its because of all of you that we actually made the leap to get a havanese in the end!

Thanks!
Ryan


----------



## Thumper

Maybe?

I know on the other forum I use, any defaming post would be pulled by a moderator ASAP.due to legal liabilities, etc.

Is it too much to ask everyone to kiss and make up? :kiss:

Kara


----------



## irnfit

Shannon, I agree with you. Just stop feeding the fire and it will die out.

"Even a fish stays out of trouble, if it keeps its mouth shut"


----------



## Dawna

Kara, i havent been online much today.... I am in the process of looking at this thread from a moderator's standpoint...


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## Dawna

doc...a post like yours has no place here. It is also a classic example of the pot calling the kettle black. Take it off this forum.


----------



## lfung5

This thread makes me want to scream already.


----------



## lfung5

PS. I do believe this site is called The HAVANESE Forum, not the Havanese Silk Dog forum. Maybe the HSD people should stay on their own forum and leave us alone.


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## irnfit

I think this thread needs to be boycotted!


----------



## lfung5

When I say the HSD people, I don't mean nice people who bought a HSD puppy. I mean the breeders who no longer consider their dogs havanese.


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## lfung5

Julie,
It's so hard to take you seriously when I see that funny picture of Quincy with the glasses! I find myself reading your posts, but I keep glancing at your avatar giggling!

Same with DAWNA!


----------



## Thumper

Michele,

This is where the problem is. This is the third, maybe 4th thread that this has happened. We keep sweeping it under the rug, and it keeps coming out. That is probably why...it gets worse every time. 


Kara


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## casperkeep

*Like my "Necklace"*

I love my Jillee no matter what she is. She is my babygirl!!!!eace:


----------



## Dawna

Linda, I can't imagine that you can't take me seriously when you are looking at a dog in a bee costume. lol
Dawna


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## Amy R.

Jillee is TOO MUCH. I just love her.


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## lfung5

Jille has the cute face I love!


----------



## casperkeep

Thank you!!!! I love her to pieces!!!!


----------



## Laurief

Linda, I love our new avatar!!!
Laurie


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## Thumper

Linda..me TOO! How clever! 

And Jillee is SO sweet.

Yay! WE've managed to get the "tone" back to pleasant. eace: Awesome.

Kara


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## lfung5

Thanks! I took it with my phone, because DH stole my camera. It came out blurry & dark, but they are all in their halloween costumes. Scudder & Bella were not happy about it, but Freddie was as proud as a peacock.


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## casperkeep

Too cute Linda...That is probably how my three will be. I am goping to start taking some halloween pictures.


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## Laurief

Megan, I think you should use the picture of Jillee with the ring around her neck as her avatar - it is just too cute!!!!


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## casperkeep

I have to find that picture...I will try to do that!!!I took this picture yesterday!!!


----------



## Laurief

wHAT A SWEET FACE - I want another!!


----------



## Julie

I like all the new pictures and avatars!Jillee looks as cute as can be on the couch!Linda I love your three in costumes!Cute stuff you all!:whoo:


----------



## JASHavanese

Dawna said:


> Linda, I can't imagine that you can't take me seriously when you are looking at a dog in a bee costume. lol
> Dawna


Is that what the yellow balls are? It's dark on my monitor and I can't tell.


----------



## Dawna

Yes, that was his bee suit last Halloween 
He was really ticked off.


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## Beamer

Everyones new avatars are great! It's a shame the website does not remember your old avatars in older posts, and not change to the new one.


----------



## JASHavanese

Thumperlove said:


> Linda..me TOO! How clever!
> 
> And Jillee is SO sweet.
> 
> Yay! WE've managed to get the "tone" back to pleasant. eace: Awesome.
> 
> Kara


Pleasant is so much nicer. We already know that emotions will run high when havanese other than havanese gets brought here and it's no fun watching my dogs lay on the couch with icepacks on their heads  saying they're having an identity crisis since their parents are no longer havanese. One is having a hard enough time believing it's a dog :laugh:


----------



## JASHavanese

Dawna said:


> Yes, that was his bee suit last Halloween
> He was really ticked off.


LOL mine don't like being dressed up either unless I kept telling Bandit how PRETTY she is. Calling her pretty always gets her.
Petco has a darling costume of a peacock and I almost bought it, but the gizmos that stick up on the head would poke my dog in the head as they're hard plastic and go right through the head piece. What a bummer, it was darling.


----------



## anneks

Haha I bought the peacock! I had bought two others cause of sizing but the peacock one is odd sized too. THe x-smalls are to small and the small is huge on her. I had originally gotten the dino with the caveman riding on it. I thought maybe the peacock would fit differently but no. It is super cute though.


----------



## Thumper

JASHavanese said:


> Pleasant is so much nicer. We already know that emotions will run high when havanese other than havanese gets brought here and it's no fun watching my dogs lay on the couch with icepacks on their heads  saying they're having an identity crisis since their parents are no longer havanese. One is having a hard enough time believing it's a dog :laugh:


You need to get that on video!!! ound: How many dogs are going to need therapy after this? The statistics are probably staggering. Hey, maybe I'm in the wrong business and need to be a Hav-therapist. lol

I need to start with my own dog, though. She thinks the stuffed bear is her puppy. LOL

Kara


----------



## JASHavanese

Kara, I agree with you that there's a problem that probably should be addressed but with tension so high I don't know how it could be done unless there was one thread where people could state their facts and it was very closely moderated by Melissa with bashing posts pulled quickly so it doesn't get out of control. 
It was said that people used to feel this was a safe haven and if their dog had a problem they felt they could come here and ask for help and now they no longer feel that way. That's sad. 
This has got to be driving Melissa nuts too. She started a wonderful forum for havanese with the best intentions and at times it's used for some to bash our beautiful dogs. 
The whole thing is just sad and I wish I had a better answer for you Kara.



Thumperlove said:


> Can someone say
> 
> ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM
> 
> This is not about puppy buyer education, yes it is important but what a few of us are getting at is the big elephant in the room that we keep trying to ignore, hoping that it will somehow vanish and go away...but its not.
> 
> We can deflect the issue to bad breeders, etc. but that doesn't make the elephant go away.
> 
> Its not fair for Jan to be bashed when she is ON THIS forum day in and day out HELPING people and sharing her time, talent and treasure with the Havanese community. It's just not right, and to make insulting comments regarding crack use, lying, stupidity, etc. is NOT what should be happening here...
> 
> Many of us are feeling like this should return to a "safe haven" for the Havanese folks.
> 
> The fact is.....there will be people that come on here asking "what is the difference between a Hav and an HSD". It will happen. Period.
> 
> Now, will the Havanese breeders and owners be able to answer these questions on the Havanese forum, OR will the HSD come out of the shadows and throw gas on the fire? Or send PM's to them, etc.
> 
> I think the point it, we have been ignoring the elephant and it has resulted in alot of tension around here. Why not get it out in the open and figure out how to resolve it and bring the peace back.
> 
> Does anyone have any ideas?? We are adults, this is a great community and we can atleast work to bring the tone back to peaceful.
> 
> Kara


----------



## JASHavanese

Thumperlove said:


> You need to get that on video!!! ound: How many dogs are going to need therapy after this? The statistics are probably staggering. Hey, maybe I'm in the wrong business and need to be a Hav-therapist. lol
> 
> I need to start with my own dog, though. She thinks the stuffed bear is her puppy. LOL
> 
> Kara


There you go Kara, a whole new career for you!


----------



## Thumper

I have nothing against anyone, I just know that alot of people want the peace back. That's all.

I know there is stuff that went on that people like me, just pet owners, don't know anything about...but I think that can be handled outside a public forum that includes owners, breeders, etc.

Maybe I am just PMS-ing. lol Cripes, I don't know. 

And I don't think the people that have Silk dogs should feel uncomfortable here either! They should be able to share their love and pride just as anyone else if they so choose.

I don't see why people can't move forward peacefully. Alot of people on her even have one of each, a Hav and an HSD..

I think the main thing I am getting at, is take the drama to a different place, that's all. Let this be a place it was intended...and the purposes as such.

We all agree that ethical breeding is paramount, no matter which side of the fence.

Kara


----------



## JASHavanese

anneks said:


> Haha I bought the peacock! I had bought two others cause of sizing but the peacock one is odd sized too. THe x-smalls are to small and the small is huge on her. I had originally gotten the dino with the caveman riding on it. I thought maybe the peacock would fit differently but no. It is super cute though.


Were you able to put the headpiece on your dog? The one I looked at had inch long pokey things where it sat on the head.


----------



## anneks

Yes and no, the size issue made it really hard not to mention the fact the Mirabel hates to have anthing on her head. It would be better if the put an elastic strap on it that went under the neck to hold it in place.


----------



## JASHavanese

anneks said:


> Yes and no, the size issue made it really hard not to mention the fact the Mirabel hates to have anthing on her head. It would be better if the put an elastic strap on it that went under the neck to hold it in place.


Ok, I'm going to pass on that one then. Darn, it's cute though


----------



## Dawna

Melissa is out of town, without internet. So.....it's driving moderator Dawna nuts. LOL


----------



## abuelashavanese

Kara,

MoJo thinks Gucci is sooooo pretty :yo:


----------



## JASHavanese

abuelashavanese said:


> Kara,
> 
> MoJo thinks Gucci is sooooo pretty :yo:


Ellie was drooling over MoJo so Lightning shut the monitor off....then chewed off more of her hair. <sigh> Ellie is the only one he does it to.....why can't he mow the standard poodle so I don't have to get out the clippers!


----------



## Thumper

Dawna said:


> Melissa is out of town, without internet. So.....it's driving moderator Dawna nuts. LOL


Relax, Donna! Breathe!!

I think there just needs to be a solution. Maybe keeping the HSD vs. Havanese confined to ONE thread, and all arguments about it can stay there, that way...people can choose to read it or not. I won't be visiting it. Even the most civil of talk always turns nasty.. lol, I'd rather spend my time laughing or oohhhing and ahhhing over all the cute lil' puppies and doggies...and beds and such. 

Oh, and Thanks, Jonda! Mojo is pretty hot himself! I love that name, btw.

Kara


----------



## JASHavanese

Dawna said:


> Melissa is out of town, without internet. So.....it's driving moderator Dawna nuts. LOL


Oh my Dawna, I wondered why Melissa wasn't saying anything. Ha, little did you know what you were getting in to!


----------



## casperkeep

I agree with Kara!!!! I am here to learn and enjoy meeting new hav owners on this site. Plus to look at all the cute puppies on here!!!!


----------



## JASHavanese

Thumperlove said:


> I think there just needs to be a solution. Maybe keeping the HSD vs. Havanese confined to ONE thread,
> 
> Kara


Since this is a havanese forum, not a hsd or beagle or chow forum, why not have everyone that *has an agenda* post in their own places?


----------



## Leeann

Dawna said:


> Melissa is out of town, without internet. So.....it's driving moderator Dawna nuts. LOL


Gees Dawna first you make Melissa this gorgeous bed and now you are having you deal with this. I think Melissa is going to have to do something very special for you..LOL


----------



## Dawna

haha Leeann! 
Melissa does stuff for me almost on a daily basis. I think I'm probably still in the hole. :biggrin1:


----------



## Julie

Thumperlove said:


> Relax, Donna! Breathe!!
> 
> I think there just needs to be a solution. Maybe keeping the HSD vs. Havanese confined to ONE thread, and all arguments about it can stay there, that way...people can choose to read it or not. I won't be visiting it. Even the most civil of talk always turns nasty.. lol, I'd rather spend my time laughing or oohhhing and ahhhing over all the cute lil' puppies and doggies...and beds and such.
> 
> Oh, and Thanks, Jonda! Mojo is pretty hot himself! I love that name, btw.
> 
> Kara


Oh now come on........:boxing: who doesn't like a good argument once in a while?ound:It's keeping me from arguing with my husband!ound:
Okay-------go ahead------I know you want to -------:fish::fish::fish:


----------



## Julie

:sorry: I'm just being stupid!:ban:


----------



## Thumper

LOL! Julie..You NUT. ound: I don't argue with my husband...I just :brick: whack him in the head. HAR!

Arguments? Ehh..Not HERE. This is a happy place. My dog makes me HAPPY, I like to stay happy, she's like a drug.

Wait. Maybe I need a prescription? ound: Washed down with vino? 

I already have a forum I can bitch at about all my **** medical problems, bills and doctors. Which reminds me, I have a Q I need to post there today. lol SEE how ADD I am? :brick: 

I think Greg or Tom said that the HSD had its own forum already? I'm not clear on that, so don't quote me. Maybe it was someone else? I can't remember. All this stuff is scattered all over the forum and I can't remember.

Gucci is trying to steal my PB&J. lol

Kara


----------



## Julie

See how this therapy works?Greg is thanking his lucky stars he is not married to me!ound: and vise versa!ound: No---I'm kidding!eace:


----------



## Julie

ound:It reminds me of Jerry Springer......just when you think your family/life is screwed up ---you watch Jerry Springer and then your family/life looks pretty darn good!ound:

I was probably an attorney in a former life giving great closing arguments!Or I'd like to think so!:drama:


----------



## abuelashavanese

Mojo wants to remind everyone that he is the official self-proclaimed Frito leg checker. :bounce: 

So all the ladies just need to line up! :hug:


----------



## Thumper

ound: ound: ound: ound:

Mojo must forget that the ladies in Club Fritos wear britches and overalls! ound: If he looks REEAALLLLLY closely, he can see some TuSH!


----------



## Greg

you ladies crack me up. ound:


----------



## abuelashavanese

Thumperlove said:


> ound: ound: ound: ound:
> 
> Mojo must forget that the ladies in Club Fritos wear britches and overalls! ound: If he looks REEAALLLLLY closely, he can see some TuSH!


Exactly, that's why he knew for sure they would love this boy from Arkansas :becky:


----------



## Thumper

Dangit! I didnt' mean to hit "send" yet! ound: :brick: You ladies have me ALL flustered and trigger happy.

Who needs Jerry Springer when you have the Hav/HSD debate? LOL

I think we can ALL agree, that we are *tired* of hearing it? ***YAWN*** No sense in rehashing it over and over and over again, right?

Well, there are solutions. Basically, Melissa can consider limits on it. I mean, if people have questions, they can get them answered elsewhere (like the HSD website) It is pretty explanatory, right?

Also, you can add a few more moderators w/ *limited* access to edit other people's posts. Which they can take out comments that are legally slanderous or defamous in nature, and the PM the person and explain WHY the post was edited, due to legal protection, etc.. Nobody stands anything to gain from those. This forum is growing alot!

Kara


----------



## abuelashavanese

Or we could just let the FRITOS take over everytime this starts up....:whip:


----------



## JASHavanese

Julie said:


> :sorry: I'm just being stupid!:ban:


THERE'S the glasses I saw mentioned. My own glasses are back at the lab so seeing detail is a little hard right now. Hm.....maybe they wound up on a dog's nose instead ound:


----------



## Julie

Jan,
Those glasses Quincy has on are teenie-tiny---they belonged to my little special boy Robbie when he was a 6 month old baby!Robbie hated them.....but they sure look great on Quince!Double duty!:kiss:hoto:


----------



## Julie

Greg said:


> you ladies crack me up. ound:


Greg--I am teasing you--:boink: 
I was thinking there could be some perks being married to you-----:biggrin1:
Look at all those cute puppies!:babyogs and puppies.......:whoo:eace:


----------



## Thumper

Julie said:


> Greg--I am teasing you--:boink:
> I was thinking there could be some perks being married to you-----:biggrin1:
> Look at all those cute puppies!:babyogs and puppies.......:whoo:eace:


Julie,

You FLIRT you!







KIDDING!!!ound: ound: ound:


----------



## Julie

Free PUPPIES!:WHOO::whoo::WHOO::whoo: and we all know they are cute as heck!

I'm no fool Kara!:wink:
Greg is a good sport.....I've teased him alot!:fencing::becky::boink::biggrin1:


----------



## Thumper

Julie,

I don't think breeders can keep ALLLLLLL the puppies!  ound: ound: Maybe just 1/2 or so! lol

Kara


----------



## Julie

See why I'm not a breeder?I could live on a acreage with hundreds of havs!I'd have to move you in and Paige for sure to keep up with all the grooming.......:kiss:


----------



## marjrc

Thumperlove said:


> Julie,
> 
> I don't think breeders can keep ALLLLLLL the puppies!  ound: ound: Maybe just 1/2 or so! lol
> 
> Kara


Kara, how on Earth do you keep HALF a puppy??? OMG!

I never thought you could be so cruel..... :jaw: :Cry:

ound: ound: o.k....... i'll go now...... :biggrin1:


----------



## marjrc

Julie said:


> See why I'm not a breeder?I could live on a acreage with hundreds of havs!I'd have to move you in and Paige for sure to keep up with all the grooming.......:kiss:


And MOI?? What about ME???? 

I could make french canadian meals and serve french wines and well.... that's about it. ound:  Oh, I know! I could take pictures ! hoto:


----------



## irnfit

ound: ound:
Boy has the tone of this thread changed! Nice work ladies.


----------



## Julie

ound:Hey we have to convince Greg first!ound:

And he already has a wife--a very pretty one I saw---(we could be in trouble ladies):becky:ound:


----------



## Thumper

alrightyyyyyy...

I meant to say HALF of the litterbugs. LOLound: :brick:

Oh, gosh! I would LOOOVEE to move into a big ole' Ranch with yall, my Gucci girl would turn into a HO bag around Quincy and Paige's boys! ound:









bwa hahaha.

Kara


----------



## Julie

Well Kara,
If you had just won at the casino,we could of bought our own ranch and ditched Greg!ound:
No--we would just leave him with his wife and son---like he should be!:biggrin1:
Gucci would have the time of her life!:whoo:


----------



## Thumper

:frusty: I know darnit!!! 

I'll have to look for other wild money making adventures!  har har har! I still the I would make a good Dog therapist. Send me your Havs for a week, or two...maybe 3. I accept all credit cards. ound: 

Kara


----------



## Julie

oundpound:

And I'll take their pictures with props BEFORE the therapy session--afterwards they'd probably bite me!Get 'em while they're down you know?ound:


----------



## Greg

Ladies,

A Hav ranch is pretty tempting. And surrounded by beautiful women........you are making it very hard on me <grin>


----------



## Greg

Thumperlove said:


> :frusty: I know darnit!!!
> 
> I'll have to look for other wild money making adventures!  har har har! I still the I would make a good Dog therapist. Send me your Havs for a week, or two...maybe 3. I accept all credit cards. ound:
> 
> Kara


You could start with my disfunctional pack. Well it used to be. They were always growling and moaning. It all changed when Trixie ascended to the throne as it were. Once she took over as the alpha, everyone chilled out. Now even Jake is a lap dog.

So should I send them all at once for group therapy?


----------



## casperkeep

You all are crazy....count me in on helping with the ranch...I am sure Jille would have fun!!!


----------



## casperkeep

I am sure all thses people on the forum would love to have a place where there doggies can come and be safe while they are gone. Kara can cook them homemade meals..sew them some outfits all kinds of things!!! I will play play play with all the doggies!!!


----------



## casperkeep

Hey I am over two hundred posts now...I think it will be awhile before I am at 1000!!!!


----------



## Greg

speaking of pictures............................

Did I mention I found Jake on the computer again? Sending out "soaped" pictures to all the bitches he chats with? I'm going to have to install NetNanny or something on the computer to keep him from using it as a "tool to meet chicks." If you've received this picture in your email and were offended, just know that we punished him accordingly


----------



## casperkeep

Jillee thinks he has some nice legs!!!!!!


----------



## juliav

Greg said:


> speaking of pictures............................
> 
> Did I mention I found Jake on the computer again? Sending out "soaped" pictures to all the bitches he chats with? I'm going to have to install NetNanny or something on the computer to keep him from using it as a "tool to meet chicks." If you've received this picture in your email and were offended, just know that we punished him accordingly


"Nothing beats a great pair of legs" :biggrin1:


----------



## Thumper

Yall' are funny!! ound: Gucci gobbled up the doggie-lasagna I made for her  Yep...Your dogs will come home with a DEMANDING palate, I'm telling ya!


Kara


----------



## Havtahava

Greg said:


> speaking of pictures............................
> 
> Did I mention I found Jake on the computer again? Sending out "soaped" pictures to all the bitches he chats with? I'm going to have to install NetNanny or something on the computer to keep him from using it as a "tool to meet chicks." If you've received this picture in your email and were offended, just know that we punished him accordingly


*HOLY COW! * Hillary just walked in as I opened this topic and she did a really quick doubletake, then growled at the monitor and walked out. I think she was offended seeing her daddy almost naked and dripping wet. She says he needs to put his coat back on. I tried telling her that it was shaved off, but she wouldn't hear of it.

Sigh.

I'm afraid she's scarred for life now.


----------



## Greg

See?!? He's been doing that all over the internet. The least he could do is send x-rays.

as an aside, we just finished breeding him to Dee Dee. I've never seen that boy more in love. He's got other lady visitors scheduled for later this year, but I think Dee Dee stole his heart. I'll try to post her "soaped" pics tonight. hahahahahah



Havtahava said:


> *HOLY COW! * Hillary just walked in as I opened this topic and she did a really quick doubletake, then growled at the monitor and walked out. I think she was offended seeing her daddy almost naked and dripping wet. She says he needs to put his coat back on. I tried telling her that it was shaved off, but she wouldn't hear of it.
> 
> Sigh.
> 
> I'm afraid she's scarred for life now.


----------



## Julie

Greg said:


> You could start with my disfunctional pack. Well it used to be. They were always growling and moaning. It all changed when Trixie ascended to the throne as it were. Once she took over as the alpha, everyone chilled out. Now even Jake is a lap dog.
> 
> So should I send them all at once for group therapy?


Kara,
I think we have our first customer!What do you think?All at once or seperate?(We can't give him the group rate or we'll never have our farm)ound:


----------



## Thumper

LOL! ound: Group rate? What is that? This is the land of capitalism!! Our 'Psychology Center for Havanese" is TOP notch. I mean, where else can they get gourmet food, professional pictures, and counseled like WE can provide? :biggrin1: I say take them all at once.

I guess we can do it my house, its big enough and I have the yard Hav-proofed...I just need to throw a few kids out. LOL

Kara


----------



## Greg

We are baby sitting Oscar tonight as well. Guess I should send him along too. He's such a sweetie


----------



## Lilly's mom

Thumperlove said:


> Can someone say
> 
> ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM
> 
> This is not about puppy buyer education, yes it is important but what a few of us are getting at is the big elephant in the room that we keep trying to ignore, hoping that it will somehow vanish and go away...but its not.
> 
> We can deflect the issue to bad breeders, etc. but that doesn't make the elephant go away.
> 
> Its not fair for Jan (or anyone from any side) to be bashed when she is ON THIS forum day in and day out HELPING people and sharing her time, talent and treasure with the Havanese community. It's just not right, and to make insulting comments regarding crack use, lying, stupidity, etc. is NOT what should be happening here...
> 
> Many of us are feeling like this should return to a "safe haven" for the Havanese folks and HSD owners..
> 
> The fact is.....there will be people that come on here asking "what is the difference between a Hav and an HSD". It will happen. Period.
> 
> I think the point it, we have been ignoring the elephant and it has resulted in alot of tension around here. Why not get it out in the open and figure out how to resolve it and bring the peace back.
> 
> Does anyone have any ideas?? We are adults, this is a great community and we can atleast work to bring the tone back to peaceful.
> 
> Kara


I am one of these. When I started a thread asking this very thing I sure didn't want the debate I got I just wanted simple specific answers. I really enjoy most of the posts here and I have been given alot of helpful advice from some of the most knowledgable dog owners I have ever known. I think this debate will have to be settled by the AKC and not by us. Now lets see more pictures and videos folks --- please.


----------



## Julie

Greg said:


> We are baby sitting Oscar tonight as well. Guess I should send him along too. He's such a sweetie


Yes Yes---send along Marsha's Oscar--------(he is so cute,we might just need to photograph him only--there may not be therapy needed Kara--but either way we'll get his picture!hoto


----------



## juliav

Julie,

I love Quincy the hunk, but just had to say that Vincent is an absolutely gorgeous sheltie!!!


----------



## tootle

*Double Coat Question*

The requirement for a double coat is currently included in the Havanese standard. Although the priority for my Hav's is certainly good health, I love the thick and silky coats of my boys. They have a slight wave but will appear somewhat straighter when I dry with a blow dryer. I have had no trouble with matting except during coat change. It may be hard to tell from a picture, but a good double coat will stand out from the body giving a fuller appearance. The single coats, which seem to be preferred by some of the HSD owners, is silky but thinner and hangs closer to the body. 
My Hav's come from fully health tested parents, have appropriate health testing for their age and have not had any health problems. Therefore, I'm happy that I have Havanese who are both healthy and conform to the standard that I love. 
I have had experience with other Hav's with a thick coat that is more curly and cottony. Although difficult to keep in show coat, this type of coat is adorable in a puppy cut providing fullness to a shorter more "wash and wear" style. 
I have also had experience with Hav's that have some of the current HSD's in their pedigree. The coats are silky to the touch but several from these litters came out with coats that were very short. They are "wash and wear" but not my preference in appearance. Some of the ones from this line with the longer coats have had problems with breakage along the back and difficulty with keeping longer, fuller hair on the top of the head. Just my experience and certainly not speaking for all HSD's. 
E.Ann
www.wyhaven.com
PS Hank says hi to his beautiful friend Smarty


----------



## Greg

Thumperlove said:


> Yall' are funny!! ound: Gucci gobbled up the doggie-lasagna I made for her  Yep...Your dogs will come home with a DEMANDING palate, I'm telling ya!
> 
> Kara


Doggie-lasagna? really? Is this something Ann sells at Mrs Bones or something YOU make?


----------



## Missy

Doggie lasagna-- Kara do share the recipe. I think we may have to do a forum cook book along with the Calander!!!!!


----------



## Thumper

Oh it is simple!

I was making lasagna for the family yesterday, so I just put portions of that aside and made Gucci a special one. It just isnt' as "seasoned" as the human version 

I cut the lasagna noodles just to make it easier for her to eat, but I layered the noodles, ricotta w/ raw egg, meat and mozzarella. Oh, and I diced some green beans and slipped them in there. Just a dab of sauce and diced tomatos. Easy peasy. She devoured it!!

I'm learning, that is pretty easy to "alter" whatever I am cooking for the family into something for Gucci. I will keep some rice or noodles and veggies in the fridge and add that to meats that I cook each day.

Her favorite thing is tacos! Hubby jokes that she is a true Cuban! ound: 

Kara


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

Kara, i noticed that you said Gucci is getting a little finicky(sp?) with her meals. Is there anything in particular she is starting to dislike?


----------



## Thumper

Hmm..

I am noticing that she prefers lamb, chicken, beef, and ground beef. She flips her nose up at ground turkey and ground lamb. I don't know why?

I think she might be smelling the supplements that I add, too?

OR.....she will just eat alot in one meal and not be hungry for the next, gosh..it could be so many things. But OVERALL she is eating much better. Heck, she may even be pushing 9 lbs by now! lol

But if she is not hungry, she won't eat..not even cheese or other treats. I have to be careful about when I train her and make sure she is hungry.

Kara


----------



## Greg

This won't be a Hav ranch......it will be a spa for heaven's sake. You could do their nails, fix 'em up real purdy like. Bows for the girls. Bandanas for the boys. And Gourmet food for the critters.


----------



## Laurief

Hey - since this tread has gone to he.. !!:evil: I have question for my new friends. I was gonna post this on the coffee shop but figure I will do so here, and I am sure you will all have some crazy answers!!
My son moved in sept. into his own apartment, with one roommate, for collage. His apartment is RIGHT on the beach (poor spoiled baby!!!!). My son is one who loves all people, even if you are a drunk, drug dealer, bum, nerd etc. He feels if you are nice to him, you are his friend. He has always been that kind of kid. Well, since he has move in he has - who we refer to as -- "couch man" living on his couch. this is a friend of his who hates his own apartment, and lives on my sons couch, eats his food, plays his video games, skips class, and most likely provides party items way to often!!! So - my son's girlfriend is fed up!! And I am so afraid that this kid is going to drag my son into the gutter. So far he has gone to class & gotten his work done, but how long will it be before "couch man" talks him into staying at the apt during a class time, to play xbox??? This kid is SO bad that he came to the shore with us for 4 days - I spend $700 on groceries!! He NEVER stops eating. Then to make things worse, Tuesday Matt had to come home for the night to get some meds, well couch man invited himself home with him, and slept on MY couch!!!!!!! My son thinks I am being rude and a snot for wanting this kid to go home to his own apartment!! - any suggestions??
Laurie


----------



## Thumper

Greg said:


> Doggie-lasagna? really? Is this something Ann sells at Mrs Bones or something YOU make?


You know, I have NEVER been to Mrs. Bones, but I really would LIKE to go shop there. I've looked at their website and they have alot of cute collars and stuff and SOOO many people have told me I would like that store.

I need to just get over to that side of town one day. Well, actually I am pretty close to in now (I'm at the office) But I have Gucci here with me. hmmm...I wonder if dogs are welcome in there like other pet stores?

I should open up a dog food bakery/cafe with all the stuff I make and/or create. I could probably make a small fortune just selling the homemade jerky!

Kara


----------



## Greg

Don't the Sopranos live in Jersey? Well, there's your answer................................:evil:



Laurief said:


> Hey - since this tread has gone to he.. !!:evil: I have question for my new friends. I was gonna post this on the coffee shop but figure I will do so here, and I am sure you will all have some crazy answers!!
> My son moved in sept. into his own apartment, with one roommate, for collage. His apartment is RIGHT on the beach (poor spoiled baby!!!!). My son is one who loves all people, even if you are a drunk, drug dealer, bum, nerd etc. He feels if you are nice to him, you are his friend. He has always been that kind of kid. Well, since he has move in he has - who we refer to as -- "couch man" living on his couch. this is a friend of his who hates his own apartment, and lives on my sons couch, eats his food, plays his video games, skips class, and most likely provides party items way to often!!! So - my son's girlfriend is fed up!! And I am so afraid that this kid is going to drag my son into the gutter. So far he has gone to class & gotten his work done, but how long will it be before "couch man" talks him into staying at the apt during a class time, to play xbox??? This kid is SO bad that he came to the shore with us for 4 days - I spend $700 on groceries!! He NEVER stops eating. Then to make things worse, Tuesday Matt had to come home for the night to get some meds, well couch man invited himself home with him, and slept on MY couch!!!!!!! My son thinks I am being rude and a snot for wanting this kid to go home to his own apartment!! - any suggestions??
> Laurie


----------



## Greg

of course dogs are welcome. Lots of really nice expensive stuff to buy there........................so you'll feel right at home.



Thumperlove said:


> You know, I have NEVER been to Mrs. Bones, but I really would LIKE to go shop there. I've looked at their website and they have alot of cute collars and stuff and SOOO many people have told me I would like that store.
> 
> I need to just get over to that side of town one day. Well, actually I am pretty close to in now (I'm at the office) But I have Gucci here with me. hmmm...I wonder if dogs are welcome in there like other pet stores?
> 
> I should open up a dog food bakery/cafe with all the stuff I make and/or create. I could probably make a small fortune just selling the homemade jerky!
> 
> Kara


----------



## Thumper

Laurief said:


> Hey - since this tread has gone to he.. !!:evil: I have question for my new friends. I was gonna post this on the coffee shop but figure I will do so here, and I am sure you will all have some crazy answers!!
> My son moved in sept. into his own apartment, with one roommate, for collage. His apartment is RIGHT on the beach (poor spoiled baby!!!!). My son is one who loves all people, even if you are a drunk, drug dealer, bum, nerd etc. He feels if you are nice to him, you are his friend. He has always been that kind of kid. Well, since he has move in he has - who we refer to as -- "couch man" living on his couch. this is a friend of his who hates his own apartment, and lives on my sons couch, eats his food, plays his video games, skips class, and most likely provides party items way to often!!! So - my son's girlfriend is fed up!! And I am so afraid that this kid is going to drag my son into the gutter. So far he has gone to class & gotten his work done, but how long will it be before "couch man" talks him into staying at the apt during a class time, to play xbox??? This kid is SO bad that he came to the shore with us for 4 days - I spend $700 on groceries!! He NEVER stops eating. Then to make things worse, Tuesday Matt had to come home for the night to get some meds, well couch man invited himself home with him, and slept on MY couch!!!!!!! My son thinks I am being rude and a snot for wanting this kid to go home to his own apartment!! - any suggestions??
> Laurie


Hmm...I can relate with this somewhat. I have a teenage daughter with a heart of GOLD that trusts everyone and only sees the "good" in people, and she has this inclination to "help" people, but doesn't quite understand that not everyone's motives are pure are as selfless as hers.

I just have to keep talking to her, and even though I probably sound cynical, that she has to keep her guard up and not get used/abused! I've been reiterating it for a few years now and it has sunk in "somewhat", but she is still very optimistic and giving, which is good, but sometimes attributes can turn into detributes.

I would insist that your son have this guy help foot the bills and pick up slack, like keeping the place clean, etc. and I would also tell him what you are thinking and what you are worried about! He may not agree with you, but you will have *planted the seed*, so to speak and let your son watch the couch-guy and see if the seed you planted will grow!

Kids sometimes want to prove that you are wrong, they don't want to hear the "I told you so", but our job as parents is to raise them to be self sufficient, independent, *productive* people! LOL, not all parents do this, and there ARE alot of people in this world that will take advantage of kind souls. Just try to open his eyes to that.

It is okay to be nice and help people, but the line has to be drawn when one tries to take advantage of that.

Sticky wicket.

Kara


----------



## Beamer

Laurie,

Just grab a broom and go to town on this lazy couch-guy... lol

Ryan


----------



## irnfit

I agree. I would tell him since he is spending all his time at your sons apartment and eating all his food, etc., he has to kick in with some $$$.

Kara, my dogs love pasta and turkey meatballs.


----------



## Paige

Poor Laurie, I know you are ready to pull your hair out, I too have a daughter in college and she only wants to see the good in people. I try to tell her that there are people out there that will take advantage of her being so kind hearted. But you know, I know nothing and she knows everything.

I got a call from my auto insurance company yesterday, telling me she had another car wreck. She was too scared to call home. That makes three wrecks all her fault, one where she totaled a car, then one time got a ticket because she ran a red light, because she had to pee.
:frusty: :frusty: :frusty: 

I don't know what to tell you Laurie, if you are paying for your son to live there, you could make the guy leave. If I thought he was that bad, I would.

I know he wouldn't like it, but we don't always like what they do either.


----------



## Laurief

My son is horrified with me that i would even consider talking to "couch man" about anything!! He feels that if it is his aptmt -then he should the one to be upset if there is something to be upset about - which he doesnt think!! I kinda like the sopranos idea!!


----------



## Laurief

Paige, I agree, as we are paying for it, but there is just no way to police it or enforce it, and I am sure that my son will not speak to me for a VERY long time. He really likes this kid, and dont get me wrong, he is a nice kid, just too MUCH!!! My sons girlfriend has been joking about them being each others "partener" she says they are both so dense they dont get it, and she is running out of jokes to get them to see that it is a little crazy!! The school is the one who found him this apartment - maybe I should find out what their rules are & secretly report him.


----------



## Thumper

Are you footing the bill?

If so, it is DEFINATELY your right!! Here's what you do, give you son a week to talk to the couch guy, if he doesnt' handle it...tell him YOU will talk to him.

Yes, kids get mortified when we do stuff like that....but oh well!!!

My daughter is a freshman in a local college and we pay all the bills, so she still has to listen and get good grades! I worry that I am spoiling her sometimes because I don't want her to think money falls from trees! When I was her age, I worked my arse off through college and I had started my own company in college! I was hungry and driven to succeed. She's like la-la-la....I'm too young to worry about stuff, just have "fun". argh!

Kara


----------



## Amy R.

Laurie and Reece, I've raised two daughters, now thankfully in their early thirties, and I have SEEN IT ALL. We all survived, thank gawd, and now they are such fabulous adults , and we are best friends, but, wow, it wasn't always easy. High school and college are filled with potholes. And sinkholes, LOL! Those car wrecks really brought back some happy memories, Reece, LOL !

Anyhow, I think all of Kara's advice is right-on. And, Laurie, if you are paying for your son's apartment on the beach and college, there ought to be some groundrules at the apt. No layabouts and moochers. Have a heart-to-heart talk with your son setting some firm boundaries. But rather than scold, include him as an adult in the conversation. Good luck, I feel for you guys!!:grouphug:


----------



## Amy R.

Kara, we're on the same wavelength. . . .


----------



## Greg

If I remember college correctly (and at times it is a blur).........I seem to remember those nice girls always ended up dating one of those bad guys...........they seemed to finally learn......or at least that's what they told me as the left. <grin>


----------



## Thumper

reece said:


> Poor Laurie, I know you are ready to pull your hair out, I too have a daughter in college and she only wants to see the good in people. I try to tell her that there are people out there that will take advantage of her being so kind hearted. But you know, Iknow nothing and she knows everything.
> 
> I got a call from my auto insurance company yesterday, telling me she had another car wreck. She was too scared to call home. That makes three wreaks all her fault, one she total a car, and got a ticket because she ran a red light, because she had to pee.
> :frusty: :frusty: :frusty:
> 
> I don't know what to tell you Laurie, if you are paying for your son to live there, you could make the guy leave. If I thought he was that bad, I would.
> 
> I know he wouldn't like it, but we don't always like what they do either.


Oh yikes!!!!!!! Wrecks?? Paige, that is terrible and SCARY! Is she close to having her license revoked? Does she pay her insurance or help w/ it?

The having to "pee" excuse sounds like something that would come from MY daughter, sheesh. I feel your frustration!

Right now, we pay for my daughter's car, gas, and insurance. But since she is running all over town and being taxi cab for 1/2 the town, we decided to start only giving her $50 gas (she has a diesel) and she will now have to pay 1/3 of the insurance. She is NOT thrilled with this, but she'll get over it. lol In fact, the new rules start in Oct., lol..I wonder if she will slow down?

Kara


----------



## Thumper

Amy! Yes...indeed we are  

Laurie, you can't worry that your son will get mad at you, because that is sort of reinforcing the whole thing. He is probably "worried that the couch guy will get mad at him". See what I'm saying? Sometimes, we just have to speak up, or better yet....SCREAM before we get RAN over by a train. lol

If mom and dad are still signing the checks, he might get mad, but he will get OVER it...probably by Christmas! 

Kara


----------



## Lina

Laurie, I don't have any kids but I did graduate from college some 4 years ago and I can remember that time pretty well. Although I was never the kind of person who only sees good in people (I was hurt by friends in high school and never really got over it - a French teacher used to say that I was too young to be that cynical ), I sort of understand the college mentality having a younger sister who IS exactly the sort of person that only sees good in people. I can tell you that if your son is anything like my sister or me at that age (I'm assuming around 21), he will not appreciate your input. Of course, I had a different story since my mom has never given me a cent after I graduated high school (I got a full scholarship), and so she really couldn't dictate where I lived and who my roommates were. However, I would say the best approach to your situation would be to have a talk with his girlfriend and let her approach your son. Are the two really close? How long have they been going out? He might be able to see reason better if it's coming from her. However, if this still doesn't work, I would step in and tell him that you feel like couch guy needs to put in some $$ into the apartment if he is to be spending the night every night. In particular, stress the fact that you have nothing against couch guy. If your son thinks you hate him, and I do hate to say this, but it's true, he will just defend couch guy more and more and really will shut out any advice you have to give him in respect to this situation.

Sorry I couldn't be of any more help, but I hope that all the different advice from everyone can give you a better idea of what you would like to do.


----------



## Greg

Let me point out that rarely can anything good come from guys' mother talking to his girlfriend (other than hello and goodbye). In order for guy to form a strong temporary attachment to a girl while in college, mothers cannot know what is going on between the son and said female (girlfriend).

It is, however, ok to talk to your dad about your girlfriend as long as he's cool.

</sarcasm>


----------



## Lina

LOL Greg. I would agree with your <sarcasm> normally, being a very sarcastic person myself, but I only mentioned it since Laurie said the girlfriend had expressed worry over couch guy. Otherwise, I definitely see your point.


----------



## Greg

Speaking of kids. Got school pics in the mail yesterday


----------



## Paige

Kara, she pays her own insurance. The last wreck she didn't turn in to the insurance company and it cost her $2000, and she is going to see if the person she hit yesterday will do the same. I will not be paying for any of this. I bought the car, pay for her gas and college, not for dumb mistakes.:frusty: :frusty:


----------



## Amy R.

What a happy child, Greg. Great photo. Growing up with all of your dogs must be fun, and teaches responsibility. I always loved getting those photos and comparing them to the previous year.


----------



## Thumper

Lina

My parents didn't give me one red cent for college! So I was totally independent, but I think if they are footing the bill, they have some say in what goes on. 

It sounds like the girlfriend is getting fed up with it, too. Maybe yall can join forces and nag him until he cracks? ound: 

BETTER YET..do you live close? Just start visiting w/ the couch guy all the time and drive him crazy! lol Show up w/ cookies and act like he's the best thing since sliced bread? haha. Reverse psychology and all that 

Cute boy, Greg! 

Kara


----------



## Thumper

reece said:


> Kara, she pays her own insurance. The last wreck she didn't turn in to the insurance company and it cost her $2000, and she is going to see if the person she hit yesterday will do the same. I will not be paying for any of this. I bought the car, pay for her gas and college, not for dumb mistakes.:frusty: :frusty:


I agree.

That is the rule we have. If Kelly gets in a wreck, she is picking up the WHOLE insurance bill.

I guess they WILL make mistakes, they are teens...but it seems like her generation is far more careless and carefree than mine was. Yes, I had fun and some wild times, but I always worked and had goals.

Kara


----------



## abuelashavanese

What a good looking boy Greg. Looks like he is just starting his teen years... loads of fun yet to come!!!!


----------



## Havtahava

Greg, I wouldn't have recognized Brennan at all. He is sure growing up fast. Wow.


----------



## Greg

Here's another of a boy and his dog. I hope I haven't posted this before


----------



## Greg

Havtahava said:


> Greg, I wouldn't have recognized Brennan at all. He is sure growing up fast. Wow.


yeah big changes. He's a brown belt in Karate now too. He'll test for his Black belt later this year. Playing baseball...................I wish I could stop time because I really don't want him growing up and moving out. That's gonna suck bad


----------



## Greg

abuelashavanese said:


> What a good looking boy Greg. Looks like he is just starting his teen years... loads of fun yet to come!!!!


Thank you very much.

I'm not looking forward to those teen years. Right now we are close. Soon he'll figure out I don't have all the answers.........


----------



## Thumper

Greg said:


> Thank you very much.
> 
> I'm not looking forward to those teen years. Right now we are close. Soon he'll figure out I don't have all the answers.........


PUBERTY is near! HIDE!!!!!!!!! :behindsofa: ound: ound:

Whoever said that only girls get moody was WRONG. lol

Kara


----------



## Greg

He gets his looks from his mom. Thank god. He gets his charm from me.


----------



## Greg

My son asked for boxing gloves for his birthday because................

"I think I can take you dad." "I can already run faster than you and I don't think you can hit as hard as me."

I promised his mother I wouldn't cave his skull in. Brat


----------



## Julie

Greg said:


> My son asked for boxing gloves for his birthday because................
> 
> "I think I can take you dad." "I can already run faster than you and I don't think you can hit as hard as me."
> 
> I promised his mother I wouldn't cave his skull in. Brat


ound:Kick his hine-y Gregound:
One more for the ole'boy!One day---he WILL kick yours!Enjoy it while you can!oundmy husband learned this the hard way):becky:


----------



## DAJsMom

This thread is much improved!

Dusty just saw those pictures of Jake and is asking for a bath!

Our girls are 9 and 11 and the teen years are coming way too fast.


----------



## Julie

juliav said:


> Julie,
> 
> I love Quincy the hunk, but just had to say that Vincent is an absolutely gorgeous sheltie!!!


Thank you Julia!:hug:
You made my day!(he is a big love-bug)


----------



## Suuske747

Wow, so many posts since I last read this thread and boy it has improved! YAY!!

Kara:doggy lasagne, don't tell Sierra hahahaha But how the bleep do you get rid of the tomatoe-sauce beard-moustache?! It took me tons of soap and half an hour of scrubbing....when she had spaghetti a few weeks ago


----------



## Thumper

Yes! I've learned my lesson on that w/ spaghetti! ound: :brick: SO, I put the ground meat aside for her and just add a smidgen of sauce and a little fresh diced tomato! You could even do it w/o the sauce.

Her beard looked fine after it  Although..there are times I have to wash it asap! hah.

Kara


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## Dawna

Kara,
It is a real possibility that Gucci may be a teensy bit more spoiled than my dogs. 
It's hard to believe, but I think it may be true. 
Dawna


----------



## Thumper

LOL! A teensy bit, ehh?  

I know she is pretty darned spoiled, but she behaves and it is hard to say no to her. I love that lil' girl SO much. :kiss:

The princess is actually sleeping on a mink blanket right now, next to me of course! ound: (please, no lectures on fur! It was a gift! lol) It would look pretty nice on a new bed 

I just need to include her in my will....ound: My husband will surely have me commited.

Kara


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## Dawna

It WOULD look nice on Gucci's new bed. hehe

And I KNOW, they are impossible not to spoil. Impossible.


----------



## RedHeadedGator

Greg said:


> He gets his looks from his mom. Thank god. He gets his charm from me.


I have to say that my DH was walking by when I was reading this thread and he stopped in his tracks and did a double take. What a great picture of Jen! And, of course, your son is a super cutie, too!!


----------



## Julie

ok Greg-------
Now we need to see your picture!hoto:::brushteeth: 
We need to see if this is all true.....beautiful wife,cute kid,cute dogs,now where are you?:boink:eace:


----------



## Julie

Dawna said:


> Kara,
> It is a real possibility that Gucci may be a teensy bit more spoiled than my dogs.
> It's hard to believe, but I think it may be true.
> Dawna


And Marj wonders why Quincy wants to move in with Kara?ound:


----------



## Thumper

The door is ALWAYS open, my dear! Pass that lil' boy on over.  Gucci will turn into a horndog. ound: I can see her following him around, drooling and trying to seduce him! 

Kara


----------



## Greg

This is the only one I have with both of us in it..........scanned that is. I'll look for more.

I weigh more now......bout 20 lbs more


----------



## Julie

what a beautiful couple!You guys look great!


----------



## Sissygirl

Laurief said:


> Hey - since this tread has gone to he.. !!:evil: I have question for my new friends. I was gonna post this on the coffee shop but figure I will do so here, and I am sure you will all have some crazy answers!!
> My son moved in sept. into his own apartment, with one roommate, for collage. His apartment is RIGHT on the beach (poor spoiled baby!!!!). My son is one who loves all people, even if you are a drunk, drug dealer, bum, nerd etc. He feels if you are nice to him, you are his friend. He has always been that kind of kid. Well, since he has move in he has - who we refer to as -- "couch man" living on his couch. this is a friend of his who hates his own apartment, and lives on my sons couch, eats his food, plays his video games, skips class, and most likely provides party items way to often!!! So - my son's girlfriend is fed up!! And I am so afraid that this kid is going to drag my son into the gutter. So far he has gone to class & gotten his work done, but how long will it be before "couch man" talks him into staying at the apt during a class time, to play xbox??? This kid is SO bad that he came to the shore with us for 4 days - I spend $700 on groceries!! He NEVER stops eating. Then to make things worse, Tuesday Matt had to come home for the night to get some meds, well couch man invited himself home with him, and slept on MY couch!!!!!!! My son thinks I am being rude and a snot for wanting this kid to go home to his own apartment!! - any suggestions??
> 
> Laurie


Laurie,

You have to hit the kids where it hurts.....in their pockets....money. Tell your son that if (lazy boy) is going to live there he has to fork over money for rent, food, etc. explain how hard you and your husband work and you can't afford another kid to raise through college. It's only right and you know that he (your son) will express this to the (lazy boy). Then cut your son's food allowance in half.......this will hurt. When he says he doesn't have any money - tell him to get it from (lazy boy) - your son won't starve...

When my son was in college (Oklahoma State University - Stillwater, OK)
yeah pokes! they have a system where they slide their identity card anywhere on campus and most restaurants in town and then the bill goes home to the parents.....yes it does..... He would feel sorry for friends buy their food, etc. You could even slide that little card for clothes in the student union shopping, jewelry, etc.... can you believe that...

We added up how much we thought he could eat on put it in a account at the school and put him on a budget....it worked. We told him when it was gone it was gone... He lived in a apartment by himself - we footed the bill for living expenses, tuition, ins., car - everything - so he knew we were serious.

Happy to say my son is a wonderful Journalist and is a television news producer - love that boy!


----------



## RedHeadedGator

Awww - what a beautiful pic of the two of you. Is that your wedding photo? Your lovely bride is holding my most favorite flowers of all - looks like Calla Lilys.


----------



## juliav

Greg,

Your wife is just gorgeous and you two make a very beautiful couple, you were being entirely too modest about you looks.  And your son is a total cutie, I love his longish hair. The girls are going to be all over him soon!


----------



## Laurief

Marie, That is what we are working on now. Last year he got a debit card & spent all the money - plus - in 9 days so we took that away, then we took the credit card away, and now we mail him cash each week!! He is horrible with his money. He came home on Monday night, got his $60 weekly amount, and last night he was saying "I need money for groceries" so we told him - too bad!! If he wasnt taking $ out of his weekly $ for groceries then he was on his own!! He texted and imed me 20x in the afternoon, and I finally said, look I am at the Dr office with your brother for an echo cariogram, I cant be worried about your groceries, call you Dad!! Hubby told him too bad, you had the money, what you blew it on is his problem. So today when talking with him, he never said a word about $, so I think he got the hint!! Lets hope he realizes that eventually this kid is going to run him into the ground. I did have a long talk with him about it Monday night, so I know he knows how I feel, so I guess we will see.
Thanks for all the advise.
Laurie


----------



## Greg

RedHeadedGator said:


> Awww - what a beautiful pic of the two of you. Is that your wedding photo? Your lovely bride is holding my most favorite flowers of all - looks like Calla Lilys.


yep that's the day she made the biggest mistake of her life <grin>

Now she's MINE ALL MINE!


----------



## Lynn

Laurief said:


> Lets hope he realizes that eventually this kid is going to run him into the ground. I did have a long talk with him about it Monday night, so I know he knows how I feel, so I guess we will see.
> Thanks for all the advise.
> Laurie


Laurie,

I totally agree, these kids now a days just know no end in asking for money. My daughter is now graduated from college and it has been money for vacation, money for down payment for house, money for wisdom teeth... always something. When does it end???

I advise from experience; put the kid on a budget and hold him to it!


----------



## Amy R.

Lynn, I hate to tell you this, but in my experience, it NEVER ends! lol !


----------



## Paige

Laurie,
I thought when they got to the college age that it would get easier, I find myself:frusty: :frusty: :frusty: beating my head against a wall more times than not. 

I need a drink

See, we will never have these problems with our furbabies, no driving, dating, moving out...


----------



## Thumper

reece said:


> Laurie,
> See, we will never have these problems with our furbabies, no driving, dating, moving out...


ound: ound: That is EXACTLY what I think! haha.

Kara


----------



## Laurief

Hubby and I always say, "if we knew how easy dogs were - we would never have had kids!!" My older son has ALWAYS been a challange & always exhausting!
He is coming home again this weekend, to do yardwork to make some $ (gee what a concept work equals payment????) Duh! so I am going to talk to him AGAIN about couch Man. I just hope that it starts to kick in soon!!


----------



## marjrc

Alright, Julie, I get it now. Even *I* think that Quincy and all other Havs would have it made in the shade over at Kara's! lol

Greg, what beautiful pictures of you and your family! Very handsome couple and your son looks so joyful. Thanks for sharing. 

Laurie, it looks like you and hubby are on the same page and that's at least half the battle. Good luck and keep at it. Sometimes tough love and hard lessons are what our kids need. Our oldest is 17 so I'm not quite there yet, but i'm sure it's all fun and games once they go to University. yeeeeeehhaaaaaa! NOT! :frusty:

OH! On the subject of coats - Sammy has a single, straight coat that slightly curls at the ends and it is silky. It takes months for it to grow 1/2 an inch though for some reason, his bangs grow like weeds. lol Ricky's coat is thick, curly and in some parts wooly, but very silky on the head and behind the neck and on upper back. It's his behind that is quite wooly. His hair is harder on the arms to comb through, but it's rich, thick and very soft to nestle against. Interesting how diff. coats can make a Hav look. Ricky looks like a fluffy teddy bear and Sammy looks like a Maltese! lol


----------



## Doggie Nut

Well, it NEVER ends.....mine are all married and so we've just doubled the problems that arise! Plus 4 grandchildren with 2 more on the way. Just MORE to worry about! But I wouldn't change it for anything! The good far outweighs the bad! That's why we need those fur babies for the unconditional love!!:biggrin1:


----------



## Sissygirl

I remember seeing Bill Cosby on T.V. and he was talking about
grown children and their problems. He said just about the time you
think your done with them... 

they come back with reinforcements - Grandchildren


----------



## JASHavanese

Julie said:


> ok Greg-------
> Now we need to see your picture!hoto:::brushteeth:
> We need to see if this is all true.....beautiful wife,cute kid,cute dogs,now where are you?:boink:eace:


LOL I think Greg was having some fun with you posting that picture of him and Jen. It's a pretty picture but who is the guy???????
This is Greg


----------



## Gableshavs

Jan you are a total hoot.


----------



## JASHavanese

Gableshavs said:


> Jan you are a total hoot.


<blush> Awwwwwwww ty.


----------



## Gableshavs

That was the best laugh I've had all day. Greg, we've all changed a bit since getting married. You still look terrific.


----------



## JASHavanese

Gableshavs said:


> That was the best laugh I've had all day. Greg, we've all changed a bit since getting married. You still look terrific.


Oops, I was thinking Greg was just teasing you guys. He used to send pictures to his puppy list saying that the guy who looked like that was his brother. Greg, is that YOU in the picture?????????


----------



## JASHavanese

Sissygirl said:


> I remember seeing Bill Cosby on T.V. and he was talking about
> grown children and their problems. He said just about the time you
> think your done with them...
> 
> they come back with reinforcements - Grandchildren


LOL Marie, that's true but oh are grandkiddos fun! You can spoil the heck out of them and send them home....with a huge piece of chocolate cake in them and Mom gets to deal with the sugar rush. ound:


----------



## Greg

Aha! I found a more recent pic. This was taken last year before I started my cancer treatment

http://www.sedosohavanasilkdogs.com/images/Me 3.jpg


----------



## Thumper

Greg, don't be so modest!

I was just curious, why do you have 2 websites? I see you have the www.sedosohavanese.com still up? Are you still selling plain ole' Havanese too?

Kara


----------



## JASHavanese

Thumperlove said:


> I was just curious, why do you have 2 websites? I see you have the www.sedosohavanese.com still up? Are you still selling plain ole' Havanese too?
> 
> Kara


Now that my nose is burning from coffee flying out of it, I'm going to go play with puppies then do some Hav artwork. Kara, you have a way with words. ound:


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## Greg

I'm keeping all of them up, just going back and updating them as I have time


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## anneks

Or, keep it there as a back up plan in case the whole HSD thing doesn't work out.


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## Greg

:croc:


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## Thumper

Greg said:


> I'm keeping all of them up, just going back and updating them as I have time


Greg,

What about the link for the puppies for sale that are "Kim Shelborne's"? The link on the left of the page..They are precious! Are they sired by your boy?

Kara


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## Julie

:tape:


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## Greg

They are cute aren't they?

Kim is a friend of mine and earlier this year she had some puppies to sell........and no website. So I offered to put them up on my site to help her sell them. Those pups are probably almost a year old now...........and all sold. Goes to show how I need to update my website more often eh?



Thumperlove said:


> Greg,
> 
> What about the link for the puppies for sale that are "Kim Shelborne's"? The link on the left of the page..They are precious! Are they sired by your boy?
> 
> Kara


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## Julie

Greg said:


> They are cute aren't they?
> 
> Kim is a friend of mine and earlier this year she had some puppies to sell........and no website. So I offered to put them up on my site to help her sell them. Those pups are probably almost a year old now...........and all sold. Goes to show how I need to update my website more often eh?


They were cute hav puppies......
I liked a couple you had too---the split-faced puppy in one litter and the black and white pup with the black mustache......cute as could be!


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## Havtahava

Greg, I went to your web site over a month ago and couldn't figure out why you weren't updating it anymore. I was thinking that you had really gotten lax on updates. I didn't even realize you had a Sedoso Havana Silk site now. Duh!

Apparently, I missed the part about Kim's pups too. Kim's a great gal.

Edited to add: Greg, I also wanted to comment on your wedding photo. OHMYGOODNESS! That is an amazingly wonderful photo. Your wife is always strikingly beautiful, but sheesh. And I'm still waiting to hear when you three are coming out here for your personal tour of S.F. with my husband and I.


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## Greg

Marsha & Ben got the one with the mustache. He's Oscar. That cute split face girl is named Daisy and lives in Boston with a wonderful family.

Kim's pups were pretty for sure. It was nice to see something other than black on my website.



Julie said:


> They were cute hav puppies......
> I liked a couple you had too---the split-faced puppy in one litter and the black and white pup with the black mustache......cute as could be!


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## Greg

yeah I'm a slacker when it comes to updating. I get calls for puppies all the time..........and then I realize they are talking about past litters that I've announced but not taken down. I need to get better at updating.

Jenn and I were talking about heading to SF sometime next year. The effects of my last therapy will end in November............and then it will take a few months for my body to recover...........but we were talking about heading that way towards the end of next summer.



Havtahava said:


> Greg, I went to your web site over a month ago and couldn't figure out why you weren't updating it anymore. I was thinking that you had really gotten lax on updates. I didn't even realize you had a Sedoso Havana Silk site now. Duh!
> 
> Apparently, I missed the part about Kim's pups too. Kim's a great gal.
> 
> Edited to add: Greg, I also wanted to comment on your wedding photo. OHMYGOODNESS! That is an amazingly wonderful photo. Your wife is always strikingly beautiful, but sheesh. And I'm still waiting to hear when you three are coming out here for your personal tour of S.F. with my husband and I.


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## Julie

I wasn't sure that was Oscar---but I would of picked him too.I love the mustache!Cute guy for sure!I wonder what the split faced puppy I think you said Daisy will look like as an adult---I haven't seen a split face adult in this breed,but have seen it a couple times in a sheltie and a calico cat.It was freaky(the cat).


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## Greg

so far she's absolutely beautiful.


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## Julie

I bet she is......I think it would be really cool to see her as an adult.:hint-hint: if you get a chance:thumb:


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## Greg

Hey everyone, Brennan won his karate tournament today.......for his age group I mean. It brought tears to my eyes watching him overcome some of the obstacles today........I'm so proud of the person he's becoming. And I'll admit I have his mother to thank for the goodness in my son. 

He is just awesome. I wish I could have more.


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## Julie

Hey ---:clap2:Congrats to Breenan!That is really awesome!:clap2:


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## juliav

Congratulations Brennan! I can see how proud of him you are Greg, any pics??


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## Greg

here's one taken at his last tournament. In this picture he just finished landing a punch that almost knocked his opponent out. It did, however, end the fight. I didn't take pics this time because I was coaching him. Now I regret it because Jennifer missed out on the joy on his face.


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## juliav

Great action shot. Thank goodness they wear all that protctive gear!!!


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## RedHeadedGator

Go, Brennan, go!! A BIG congratulations to the Karate King!!


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## Beamer

i thought a hockey fight was breaking out?! lol..
Congrats to your boy!


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## Greg

thanks gang


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## mckennasedona

Great photo! Thanks for sharing it Greg. Congratulations to Brennan.


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## irnfit

Isn't it great when your kid accomplishes something like that. Congratulations to Brennan.


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## Laurief

Greg - isn't it fun at those tournaments?? Both my boys earned their black belts by the time they were 13 years old, and had so many trophies that we had to build cases for them! It is so great to see them feel so good about themselves and I have to say that I feel this helped my guys be strong, healthy athletes in High School - as well as becoming very confident young men (mine are not 20 and 17). Hubby & I also took lessons with them, although I didnt make it to Black, but did learn some good defensive moves!!
Congrats to your son.
Laurie


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## Greg

Yes it is fun.

Karate has made such a huge difference in his life. He has confidence, good health, respect........good grades.......he's easier going.......and with his hair he looks like a rock star!

This is the first year he's played Little League Baseball......and karate has helped with his reaction speeds and focus. The first day he walked in and after try outs they made him a starting pitcher and short stop.........the kid's amazing.


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## marjrc

Great news, Greg! It's plain to see how proud you are of your boy. We parents can't get enough, can we?  I also love to see our kids do well and watch them grow. Celebrated my 43rd b'day today and looking at my kids makes me feel time is going by TOO fast! sigh...... 

Thanks for sharing, Greg. Good luck with your therapy!


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## marbenv

Wow! I missed a lot! I haven't looked at this thread for awhile as I was avoiding it!:biggrin1:

Oscar had a blast at Greg and Jen's with all the dogs. He was in heaven, but thankfully still wanted to go home with us that night.

And Greg does NOT look like the picture Jan posted and his brother does NOT look like the guy (Greg) in the wedding picture.

They are all three beautiful people--inside and out!

SO glad this thread has changed--now I can read it again.

Marsha


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## bentimom

my belle is a hsd. she doesnt mat. her hair is straighter than my charleys and i think her head is smaller. both are very cute.
michelle


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## Me&2Girls

Marj - HAPPY BIRTHDAY! And to think you aren't even middle aged yet since the average life span of a woman is about 87 now I believe. Hope you have a wonderful day.arty:


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## marjrc

Hey, Lisa! Thanks a lot, hon. My birthday is Oct. 4th though... LOL

Michelle, congrats on your new Hav! Welcome to the forum!!


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## Me&2Girls

Geez - guess I need to look at dates first. Happy Belated Birthday then. Mine's the 14th. But I'm a few years older. Not that I'd admit to anyone else however!


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## marjrc

LMBO !! Your secret is safe with me.


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## Elaine

Well Greg,
Summer is coming quickly and I notice you told Kimberly you would be coming our way the end of the summer, hopefully. With your treatments finished I do hope all is well and I hope that when you come out I will get to see you again. Marj and Lisa, you are both still pretty young and some day I will reach midlife but I told my grandmother when I was 8 or 9 that I was going to live to be 120 and in another couple of years I will be half way there, and proud of it.


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## Me&2Girls

Just couldn't resist posting this photo of our lovely ALMOST midlife lady (isn't she fabulous looking?)


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## maryam187

Oh my Elaine, you look like it's fun to hug you! So watch out for me when I come to California :hug:


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