# end of my (poop) rope-- what is with Cash?



## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Hello all you owners of poo eating Havs, Have any of you successfully stopped the Coprophagia with your havs? 

Today My DH reports that on their walk - since Cash knows we pick it up-- the little stinker was trying to twist his body to get it while it was coming out!!!! :hurt: he succeeded just a bit. He also has been known to sit in catchers position behind Jasper--- I fear this has become obsessive with him-- I have tried all the things you buy to feed them, I have tried pinapple (that worked for a while) adoplphs too. but he has a very strong will. 

I can tell you he does not do this out of guilt to hide the evidence because if he gets some he devours it in complete joy running only if I try to get it from him

I have read it can be a nutritional deficiency-- has anyone cured this by simply switching foods? and if so what were you feeding? what are you feeding now? 

:hurt::hurt::hurt:

PLEASE HELP US!!!!!!!


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Missy,

What I would do, is get a squirt bottle and fill it with water and some jalepeno juice and squirt it on the poo so he'll stop eating it. I've read that has been done with some success. It sounds kinda harsh, but if you've tried everything else, then what the heck? lol

I've read about the deficiency, but even if it started out that way..I'd more likely guess that it has just become habitual with him..and some sort of 'habit'.

That has to be frustrating. I hope you find a solution!

Kara


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

For a really determined dog, I have waited until they eliminate and then do NOT pick it up, but put some tabasco sauce on it. Leave it where Cash can get to it and see if doing that a few times stops him. You'll know when he attempts to put it in his mouth by his reaction. (It's a little amusing.)

I think copraphagia _can_ be caused by a nutritional deficiency, but I think that is very, very rare.


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## Tritia (Nov 17, 2007)

Our dogs were trying to lick up the old residue under our grill. I sprinkled some red pepper all over it, and they never went back.

They did drink quite a bit of water that day :biggrin1:

So, even it sounds harsh..I agree with the others about making it unappealing.


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## LuvMyHavanese (Apr 13, 2007)

Jax has done this since we got him as a rescue puppy in July. I have switched foods a few times(for various reasons) but he still does it. He is very very sneaky about it too. I thought he stopped, but we have a doggy door with a very large fenced yard so i dont hardly ever catch him in the act. He is a picky poo eater though. He will only eat his(unless its wild animal poo) but not Dreams or Tripps. The bad thing is he(just one time last week) he puked it up all over the place just when i woke up at 5 a.m for work. Talk about meuke:. That was the worst. I too think he does this out of habit. I know he eats great food. 

Bad thing is he got Tripp to 'nibble'. Jax is like a 'poo pusher'. I can picture him saying, 'cmon Tripp just try it', then Tripp will say 'no, mom will kill me!' then Jax says...'do it Tripp, just do it'!! WIth that kind of pressure, what can one do!!


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## LuvMyHavanese (Apr 13, 2007)

Tritia said:


> So, even it sounds harsh..I agree with the others about making it unappealing.


Isnt that funny that we have to make poop 'unappealing'!! :biggrin1:


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

I'd try the pepper sauce trick if it were my girls. (Thankfully, they do not indulge....) I know I tried Tabasco sauce on a table leg to get the girls to stop chewing it when they were puppies but they LOVED the stuff so I'd probably try to find something hotter.

Good luck.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Oh goodness Susan! That's funny and frustrating that they enjoy Tabasco. Figures!


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

Missy, I feel your pain. Nigel is my poop eater. Good thing he is sooooo cute

He brought a Axl turd on the deck the other day:jaw:. So I pour the hot sause on it and he licked it and let it be. 

I told hubby that I was going to buy a gallon of hot sauce come spring and take care of the problem. 

It's so gross, I could die. I don't even like to think about it.uke:


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

LuvMyHavanese said:


> Jax has done this since we got him as a rescue puppy in July. I have switched foods a few times(for various reasons) but he still does it. He is very very sneaky about it too. I thought he stopped, but we have a doggy door with a very large fenced yard so i dont hardly ever catch him in the act. He is a picky poo eater though. He will only eat his(unless its wild animal poo) but not Dreams or Tripps. The bad thing is he(just one time last week) he puked it up all over the place just when i woke up at 5 a.m for work. Talk about meuke:. That was the worst. I too think he does this out of habit. I know he eats great food.
> 
> Bad thing is he got Tripp to 'nibble'. Jax is like a 'poo pusher'. I can picture him saying, 'cmon Tripp just try it', then Tripp will say 'no, mom will kill me!' then Jax says...'do it Tripp, just do it'!! WIth that kind of pressure, what can one do!!


Oh Shannon, I hear you- we have had the barfed poo too---- ewwwwwww!!!
Jasper thank heavens has not bent in to the peer pressure.

here are two interesting articles I found.

http://www.dogs-4life.com/coprophagia-in-dogs,-causes-and-cures.html
http://www.hilltopanimalhospital.com/copraphagia.htm

I'm going out shopping for the hottest sauce I can find--- or I could just spray the petzlife breath spray on it -- he seems to hate that!!!! some how he hasn't made the connection that if he eats poo he gets a spritz. :frusty:

I do wonder if all my research and mixing and matching foods for my finicky Jasper has caused a nutritional imbalance in Cash. Maybe by cooking the raw medallions I have robbed them of their nutrients-- or maybe I am adding too many green beans (it did get worse when I put him on a diet)

the only kibble i can get them both to eat is "royal canin" either poodle or special I put some down this morning and they gobbled it--- I usually just use it for treats-- I changed as Shannon said for many reasons and I know it's not the best food out there-- But Debbie's Sexy Sampson I believe grew up on Royal Canin-- and Tom just posted that excellent post about going back to Pro Plan -- Maybe there is something to all the years and research of these large established companies.

one of the articles above suggested switching to canned and adding oil-- that a high protein high fat diet cures it often in two months-- but neither of my boys are skinny---

ahhhh, after a year is there any hope he will grow out of it?


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

I read an article about this a few months ago and cannot remember where. It said it starts out as boredom or a cleaning situation, such as the mother cleaning up after the pups. No animal likes to live in its poop. Then it becomes a habit. Some dogs will grow out of it, some will not. The article did recommend change of diet, additives to the food, and different sprays on the poop. I gained nothing from the piece to really help that you have not tried. A good, fast spray bottle might be the answer.

Smarty ate her in house poop when we very first got her. Once she got on a schedule of going out she stopped. She still eats deer, rabbit and best of all CAT poop when she finds it. I try my best to stop or keep her out of it but she is like a wild animal going for the last morsel of food when she finds a good pile. 

This is why I never talk about Smarty's kisses. I don't want them.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

SMARTY said:


> This is why I never talk about Smarty's kisses. I don't want them.


Luckily Cash is not a kisser but a cuddler. But it would be really hard to refuse kisses--- but of course I would


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Tori is a "stealth" poop eater :spy:. Her M.O. is to go hide behind a chair or in an out of the way corner, poop, then eat the evidence uke: I don't think she does this out of fear of getting scolded :nono: for going where she's not suppose to, because she will often go on the pads or outside then turn around and have a taste or two. But, she will only do this if we're not there watching her when she goes. She knows we don't like it and will usually "leave it" if she thinks we're aware of what she's doing. However, we aren't always with her when "nature calls". If she's given any "privacy" she'll partake every time! :frusty:

I've tried several "remedies" as well, to no avail... I have to smile when I see the suggestions regarding making it "taste bad"... I'm sorry, like it doesn't already taste bad??? ound:You can be sure I'll be keeping an eye on this thread to see what suggestions are given. Missy, I'm feeling a bit desperate, too!


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Sorry guys- no help, thank goodness my girls don't do this! I would never be able to talk DH into another. Now if you a solution for rolling in dead animals or worms, let me know!

Amanda


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Missy said:


> Today My DH reports that on their walk - since Cash knows we pick it up-- the little stinker was trying to twist his body to get it while it was coming out!!!! :hurt: he succeeded just a bit. He also has been known to sit in catchers position behind Jasper---
> 
> PLEASE HELP US!!!!!!!


I'm not usually in the habit of quoting myself--- but did no one pick up on Cash's determination and his agility anf flexability to achieve his goal? :frusty::frusty:

Leslie, the first time I noticed baby Cash doing this-- he was almost proud of it-- He was lying under the dining room table savoring something held between his paws- chew look up at us--- munch, looks up at us---- Missy says "Whatcha chewing there buddy?...come on let me see it......... (moment of disocovery) ewwwww, ukkkk, huh huh...oh Cashy!!!! grosssssss....."

I think the fact that Tori hides it is a better sign.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Shelby is my poop eater, and a sneaky one, too. She never tries to eat it when we go for a walk. When they go out back, I'm not with them. so I guess anything goes. She uses the pads to go in the house. Sometimes she is so sneaky, the only way I know she has eaten it is the stain left on the pad (and her breath when she tries to lick me - yuck!!).


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

irnfit said:


> Shelby is my poop eater, and a sneaky one, too. She never tries to eat it when we go for a walk. When they go out back, I'm not with them. so I guess anything goes. She uses the pads to go in the house. *Sometimes she is so sneaky, the only way I know she has eaten it is the stain left on the pad (and her breath when she tries to lick me - yuck!!)*.


Shelby sounds just like Tori. She never eats it when we're out for a walk. I'm pretty sure she often eats what she does in the yard since there is an amazing amount of poo *not* waiting to be picked up. And we will have the telltale stains on the pads, too.

Don't they know it's very unladylike? ound:


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## Poornima (Jun 29, 2007)

Missy, your thread couldn't be more timely! I have had Lizzie back to poop eating! :frusty: She had grown out of it and I am bit baffled as to why she has started it once again. Perhaps the whole week of medication treatment for Girardia and the special high fiber diet may have had some impact. Like Shannon, I have a doggie door too and she ventures out rain or shine to do her business. She doesn't eat her poop but Benji's and she doesn't always eat it. .......Now we have the old routine of mouth cleaning back .....wiping her mouth clean every now and then and spraying with PetzLife! Thankfully, Benji is my Mr. Clean Habits.  I can let me him :kiss: me anytime.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Missy, I _did_ catch how determined he is, which is why I think you should take more drastic measures of putting a hot sauce on it right away. Don't scold him when he does it, just reach down and sprinkle it with the sauce and let him continue.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I'm gonna go out right now and get some!!!! sauce or powder?


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## LuvMyHavanese (Apr 13, 2007)

irnfit said:


> Sometimes she is so sneaky, the only way I know she has eaten it is the stain left on the pad (and her breath when she tries to lick me - yuck!!).


Ditto!!

Dont you just love the 'poop' kisses!!!! :brushteeth:


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## LuvMyHavanese (Apr 13, 2007)

Do you dilute it or make some sort of spray?


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## Doggie Nut (Oct 20, 2006)

Missy, I know it's not funny but you have a little acrobat there! I had to chuckle when I got a mental pic of that! He is a POOP CONNOISSEUR! I think we need to contact the David Lettermen show so he could be on that pet trick segment! Just kidding! Valentino still eats his sporadically.....not sure what motivates him on the days he indulges though! Sorry I am no help!


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Missy said:


> I'm gonna go out right now and get some!!!! sauce or powder?


Missy could you grab me some too. Yup my little Monte has taken up bad habbits.. Oh and Riley likes to play catcher but thankfully as soon as he smells it he walks away. I think Monte's issue is everything has to be clean, clean, clean, he even washes his face like a cat licking his paws and rubbing his face.


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## Olliesmom (Sep 29, 2006)

TWO Words worked for us!

PINEAPPLE JUICE!

:whoo:


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

do you think this could be related to winter and not so much excersize? Seeing a lot of our Hav's are doing it.


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## Jan D (Mar 13, 2007)

Missy I can so hear your feeling of distraught when I read your posts!

Havee too will eat his poop if allowed. It is so disgusting to us when we know he's done this it almost ruins our moods for the next hour or two! It's almost like our 1 year old toddler has done it the way we treat these dogs!!!We have a fenced in yard, and we feel we can't let him go out on his own to poop back there because we don't trust him to leave it alone! 

Whether it be in the backyard(we take him out on a leash most times since his attention span to do his business is ZERO)or on a poop walk, we pick it up immediately. We know his poop schedule so that makes it easy. 

Havee had a dingleberry once and proved himself to be quite the athelete when he twisted around to grab it from his butt! Very talented...or so he thought souke:

I have ordered Solid Gold Sea Meal as a suppliment. I read about it on other posts. It has Prozyme in it and says it will help the poop eating by making the food digest better and make the poop less foodlike????uke: I think though that I've read that you tried Prozyme with no positive results.

Havee did one time vomit repeatedly after eating his poop. You'd think that would have taught him something...

I feel your pain---we just don't let him have it anymore. (We don't use wee wee pads) He's allowed to go in the backyard and play alone only if he's pooped recently.

We've sprinkled cayenne pepper on rabbit poop (it might as well be caviar to Havee--another thing that disgusts us) and that has worked but we can't keep up with all the rabbit poop that we have in the yard!!

I'd try pouring or sprinkling the hottest thing you can find on his poop for a while and see it that works. That puts you on major POOP PATROL though.

Good luck--
Jan


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Tori has been on ProZyme for about a month now. It hasn't seemed to make any difference... Is there any thing different about the Seameal that may make it more effective?


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

Solid Gold Seameal was working for us for quite a while...I thought mine were "over" their poop eating....but not this week!
Even Daisy, who has never eaten poop surprised me last night by jumping up on the COUCH and munching on poop! EWWWWWWWWWW!! It seems like right now, allllllll of mine are eating poop. Nothing in their diet has changed.... And I just want to puke.uke:


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Boy, I hope Pablo never finds out about poop being a delicacy, although he LOVES goose poop. His thing is to drink his pee off the paper. uke: It drives me nuts and so I try to always run over and fold the paper and dump it right away. He always has fresh water to drink, but my theory is he's a typical Virgo and wants to clean the mess up right away. He's a lot like a cat when it comes to hygiene...


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Missy said:


> I'm gonna go out right now and get some!!!! sauce or powder?


I've just used straight Tabasco and shake it on the stool. I only needed to use it twice and that stopped it.

My other girl stopped with pineapple juice on her food.


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## casperkeep (May 16, 2007)

Well, I am right there with ya all on this grappy habit they have....Lizzie my Labs loves it...she brought in a frozen piece last night....GROSS!!! Jillee will eat it but not as much as Lizzie and Ginger which is our food hound has never once tried it....we have tried the meat tenderizer,pineapple juice...they are eating Eagle pack...maybe we will try hot sauce....we shall see!!!


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

Cosmo likes to have a sample if he can find it .. I have to be so careful in the desert as there is kat all over the place from the critters ..
henever they do their business i say No - that is mine .. And I pivk it up really fast ..
I can identify with the checking and catching . Cosmo tried that with Ahnold until I said No - mine .. Now they think they are doing something special for me as they seem to leave it ..


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

ah Cosmosmom - I will have to try "mine" they understand that.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Cosmosmom, that's great that saying "mine" worked for you! I would just like to add that it's possible for some dogs to think that you saying that means that it's something that is highly wanted and they will try to take it first. I have met quite a few dogs that have done this. Just a heads up for anyone who tries this.

Kubrick, thankfully, has pretty much stopped doing this. However, I still don't trust him when he's alone so I'm glad that he doesn't poop when no one is around. If I do see him doing it again, though, I will definitely try the hot sauce thing (pineapple juice did nothing for us, sadly enough).


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

I was just thinking to myself...I hope no one just considering a Hav is reading this thread and thinks just our Havs do this! I'm right there with you all though. Cooper has pretty much given it up, but given the right opportunity, he will grab what he can. Now if it's rabbit, squirrel or cat, then they will practically fight for it!

Little Winston will also position himself in the classic catchers position just waiting for a little morsel. uke:
Almost as bad, well, not quite, is the new "pissing contest" we have going now with two boys. If one is going, they can barely wait for the first one to finish before they have to pee on top of that spot. I just know someone's gonna get peed on!

Now I know why God makes them so cute!

Beverly


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Apparently a higher protein diet should help with this from what I have read. As well my friends dog had a similiar problem. He switched to Evo and after a few weeks it went away. He since then switched to raw and never had the problem again. He said the key was it won't go away day one from switching foods. It may take a few weeks for the new diet to work it's way through the dog's system. 

I don't think by putting tobasco or any other product is getting to the root of it, unless it has now just become habit more than anything else.

Hope that helps.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Daniel, My boys eat a pretty high protein diet. we do mostly the raw medallions (but I cook them) I do add greenbeans and potato maybe I should stop. or maybe it is the cooking... and they do get EVO and Innova mixed in the morning.

Beverly, we have the "pissing contest" too. that is AFTER they have smelled every single drop left by every other dog in the neighborhood and found the exact right spot.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Personally I wouldn't be cooking the medallions. You are losing important bacteria and enzymes by cooking. 

YOu might just want to try the medallions for breakfast and some chicken necks for dinner and get away from mixing kibble and raw (well not really raw since you are cooking them).

What do our boys weigh and how many medallions each?


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

Oh Yes I forgot I always say Thank you ..
That is something that Leah taught me - and it seems to work .. It is tough for them to leave it but they like to please Mom so they let me have it ..i to put in my special bag .. 
I make a big deal about outside potty as we were having issues transitioning Cosmo from pads to outside . It is a work in progress - good days and some not so good days but we are getting better ..


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Daniel, why should Missy completely give up the kibble? Personally I think there's good and bad kibble out there, if Missy gives them kibble and raw (well, if you didn't cook it, Missy :biggrin1 separately I don't see why she should go raw all the way. I'm not a big fan of a pure raw diet and think a good balance in kibble&raw is just fine.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I feed my dogs kibble but have considered doing raw but we travel frequently- even just on the weekends so I decided it is too much. Last night, I read this month's dog fancy and there was an article against raw. Saying historically that is what dogs ate but historically dogs only lived on average to age 3. Sorry off topic but maryam made me think of it!


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Today I was outside with the dogs and doing some raking (poop, pine cones, twigs) and notice Shelby pick up something weird and run away with it. It looked like dried poop - you know that "special color" it gets when it gets petrified? I chased her around and pried it out of her mouth, and it was only a dried up, half-eaten, liver flavor Ziggie. Boy, was I happy.


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

You guys are killing me! ound: Poop catcher, poop connoisseur, I can see the America's Funniest Video moment Whoo! 

Seriously though, I FEEL for you! ugh. I'm so grateful I haven't had the dubious pleasure of this little problem. Has anyone tried having a treat on hand to give out instead of the poo eating? Maybe combined with the "mine"! and thank you, then give the nice treat!


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

ama0722 said:


> I feed my dogs kibble but have considered doing raw but we travel frequently- even just on the weekends so I decided it is too much. Last night, I read this month's dog fancy and there was an article against raw. Saying historically that is what dogs ate but historically dogs only lived on average to age 3. Sorry off topic but maryam made me think of it!


Yes but it was predominately table scraps. Not a balanced diet. All the big manufacturers want you to think raw is bad so you buy their kibble. There was a very long thorough read on dog food in another thread from a few days ago that was a very big eye opener on the whole pet food industry and their links to vets and other groups. It's worth finding and reading. If I can find it I will post it here.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

here it is.

http://leda.law.harvard.edu/leda/dat...Patrick06.html

As well the oldest living dog was a beagle who lived to 27yrs old and was fed emu and kangaroo meat.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Missy,

Ok, well... if Cash likes poop, then maybe he will NOT like poop that comes from raw food? It's totally different than kibble poop thats for sure! The other day Beamer took a poop on a pee pad inside (he hardly EVER goes inside) I cleaned it up and about 10minutes later I found a peanut size object on the floor?? At first I thought it was a peanut or a poop.. lol.. I picked it up and examined it..smelled it.. I didnt know what it was?? lol...I squeezed it and it squashed, took a wiff and yes, it was poop..lol

My point is, maybe this extreme change in poop (raw vs. kibble) will make him stop eating it? And if he does still enjoy eating it, there will be about 80% less and it will not stink to high hell.. sooooooooooo... everyones a winner! lol 

Just my 2 cents.....


Amy-- I think dogs did not live longer than 3 yrs on average because they were not domesticated. They were just prey for larger animals. Plus they did not go to the vet everytime they hurt something.. lol

Ryan


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Amanda, that doesn't surprise me with the article. I'm not a dog food expert, but I'm in general against any extreme opinion on everything and anything. For instance, I'm against pure vegetarian, vegan or raw food diets for humans but welcome a balanced diet of healthy foods. Just because something says 'all natural' doesn't mean it's always good, because even with those healthy foods, you can have big problems like mold, bacteria, etc. So my philosophy is to use my brain and take all the different input with a grain of salt. Just my 2 cents.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Daniel, My boys are 17 and 19 ilbs-- if they were getting only medallions they would get 5-6 a day according to the NV web site. since this has been getting worse- and Cash is refusing the kibble I have been giving him 2 medallions in the morning and 3 at night with the potato and greenbeans. The problem worsened when my vet told me to take away 1/2 a medallion a day and add more greenbeans-- both my boys are about 1lb or so too heavy--- at the same time I switched them from all beef to a mix of beef and chicken medallions because they are lower in fat. If it is not habit at this point, I do suspect I may be robbing them of nurtrients by cooking the medallions and mixing and matching kibble-- one of the sites I mentioned before said to go to canned-- and add more fat. So I went and got the NV instinct cans tonight -- Cash gobbled -- when I followed the feeding instructions what was in his bowl was a lot more than I have been feeding him-- maybe he has just been hungry. I think I will try the cans a while- since I just can't do the raw!! I love these boys but they really live all over everything in our house, beds, couches, rugs (as napkins) so I just can't do the raw. 

the Prairie site has a great what to feed calculator for amounts. i would like to still give him Kibble for his teeth-- 

Keep the info coming all- I really appreciate the input.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Ryan you crack me up!!! ound:ound: yes Cash poo the size of rabbit poo-- that would be a lot less fowl. i can just see you ummm inspecting the morsel.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

I have stayed out of this raw vs. kibble diet argument for a long time now, but I do want to say that dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years and by this point have pretty much almost nothing in common with their wolf counterparts. The fact that these dogs have been used to cooked human food scraps and/or kibble means that a completely raw diet is out of the norm for the domesticated dog. I am NOT saying that it's a bad diet at all, I'm just saying that pointing to the past and saying oh look wolves and dogs in the wild eat raw food so we should also give this to our domesticated pets is completely unfounded. Try and throw one of our havs out in the wild to survive and they would die within days. They have been domesticated for thousands of years and their diets and needs have changed accordingly.

My 2 cents.

Oh and Daniel, that link doesn't work for me.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

hahahha.. honestly, i had no clue i was poop.. it just did not smell.. i actually though it was something he puked up at first.. lol


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Ryan,

Thank god you didn't think it was a peanut and thought "5 second rule still applies doesn't it" and then popped it in your mouth...lol

That would have been classic! lol


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Lina said:


> I have stayed out of this raw vs. kibble diet argument for a long time now, but I do want to say that dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years and by this point have pretty much almost nothing in common with their wolf counterparts. The fact that these dogs have been used to cooked human food scraps and/or kibble means that a completely raw diet is out of the norm for the domesticated dog. I am NOT saying that it's a bad diet at all, I'm just saying that pointing to the past and saying oh look wolves and dogs in the wild eat raw food so we should also give this to our domesticated pets is completely unfounded. Try and throw one of our havs out in the wild to survive and they would die within days. They have been domesticated for thousands of years and their diets and needs have changed accordingly.
> 
> My 2 cents.
> 
> Oh and Daniel, that link doesn't work for me.


Try it now. Warning some parts are pretty boring but if you go through the entire article it gets better.

http://leda.law.harvard.edu/leda/data/784/Patrick06.html


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Lina, dito. In addition: not everything that humans developed within the last degenerations is bad, you just have to know which one and how to use it, e.g. Penicillin, Aspirine, Kibble :biggrin1:


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Lina said:


> I have stayed out of this raw vs. kibble diet argument for a long time now, but I do want to say that dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years and by this point have pretty much almost nothing in common with their wolf counterparts. The fact that these dogs have been used to cooked human food scraps and/or kibble means that a completely raw diet is out of the norm for the domesticated dog. I am NOT saying that it's a bad diet at all, I'm just saying that pointing to the past and saying oh look wolves and dogs in the wild eat raw food so we should also give this to our domesticated pets is completely unfounded. Try and throw one of our havs out in the wild to survive and they would die within days. They have been domesticated for thousands of years and their diets and needs have changed accordingly.
> 
> My 2 cents.
> 
> Oh and Daniel, that link doesn't work for me.


While I do agree with much of what you said, the simple fact is that a dogs stomach and digestive system has not infact changed. Their diets have not really changed. We have changed their diets. It's a big difference and it does not mean we have changed it for the better but rather for convenience. From the introduction of kibble you can chart the rise in all sorts of diseases that exactly mimic our health crisis. As well in Australia they have far less health related illnesses than we have here. THey still primarily feed a raw diet but that is changing and accordingly so are health related illnesses. I'll see if I can find that article.

I'm definitely not saying kibble is bad at all. I think they are some very good ones, such as Evo (never mind the high protein falsehood since the early studies were done on vegetable protein wihich is very difficult for a dog to digest), Solid Gold, Orijen, etc etc. If kibble works for you and your dog is healthy I think it's great and I wish more people would feed it rather than the lower quality foods. I only have a problem with falsehoods spread about raw which I do believe are propogated by the big manufacturers who as the article above points out, are the ones providing nutrition training to vets....


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Missy said:


> Daniel, My boys are 17 and 19 ilbs-- if they were getting only medallions they would get 5-6 a day according to the NV web site. since this has been getting worse- and Cash is refusing the kibble I have been giving him 2 medallions in the morning and 3 at night with the potato and greenbeans. The problem worsened when my vet told me to take away 1/2 a medallion a day and add more greenbeans-- both my boys are about 1lb or so too heavy--- at the same time I switched them from all beef to a mix of beef and chicken medallions because they are lower in fat. If it is not habit at this point, I do suspect I may be robbing them of nurtrients by cooking the medallions and mixing and matching kibble-- one of the sites I mentioned before said to go to canned-- and add more fat. So I went and got the NV instinct cans tonight -- Cash gobbled -- when I followed the feeding instructions what was in his bowl was a lot more than I have been feeding him-- maybe he has just been hungry. I think I will try the cans a while- since I just can't do the raw!! I love these boys but they really live all over everything in our house, beds, couches, rugs (as napkins) so I just can't do the raw.
> 
> the Prairie site has a great what to feed calculator for amounts. i would like to still give him Kibble for his teeth--
> 
> Keep the info coming all- I really appreciate the input.


If your dogs are let's say both 17lbs. An adult dog show have between 2-3% of their weight in raw food. At 2.5% for a 17lb Hav that's 6.8 ounces of food a day. Which would be almost 7 medallions. My guys get about 6 oz so I fead them 4oz in the morning of the Tollden Farms patties and 2 chicken necks in the evening.

I'm not sure if you tried the chicken necks but it's highly recommended that they get about 60% of their diet from raw meaty bones. Maybe try something similiar if only for a test for a couple of weeks and see how it goes. Or even give them 2oz of Medallions and 2 chicken necks in the morning and 2 oz of kibble in the evening.

Just a suggestion. Hopefully you find something that works.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

DanielBMe said:


> While I do agree with much of what you said, the simple fact is that a dogs stomach and digestive system has not infact changed. Their diets have not really changed. We have changed their diets. It's a big difference and it does not mean we have changed it for the better but rather for convenience. From the introduction of kibble you can chart the rise in all sorts of diseases that exactly mimic our health crisis. As well in Australia they have far less health related illnesses than we have here. THey still primarily feed a raw diet but that is changing and accordingly so are health related illnesses. I'll see if I can find that article.
> 
> I'm definitely not saying kibble is bad at all. I think they are some very good ones, such as Evo (never mind the high protein falsehood since the early studies were done on vegetable protein wihich is very difficult for a dog to digest), Solid Gold, Orijen, etc etc. If kibble works for you and your dog is healthy I think it's great and I wish more people would feed it rather than the lower quality foods. I only have a problem with falsehoods spread about raw which I do believe are propogated by the big manufacturers who as the article above points out, are the ones providing nutrition training to vets....


I'm not really sure what you mean by saying that dog's digestive systems haven't changed. Since when? Since before domestication or post-domestication? Because their diets have changed since they have been domesticated and no, they haven't been given completely raw diets since that domestication and yes their needs have changed since then. As far as the increase in kibble feeding meaning an increase in health related illnesses, I don't necessarily think that has to do with kibble feeding. Prior to feeding kibble means before WWI and, in general, before WWII for the majority of the population (dogs were still being fed primarily table scraps even after the introduction of kibble). The actual life span of these dogs was much much lower than it is today. The fact that dogs live longer nowadays (due to better health care, more companion related roles rather than work related roles) gives them a much higher chance of developing diseases and health related issues. I'm not saying that kibble might not be a reason for this, but I wouldn't say it's the only reason. I do think that longer lifespans means higher chances for illness.

I do agree with what you say about there being falsehoods spread about raw, but I do think that's true of ANY diet, including kibble diets. I mean, really, do you think that the companies that put out raw food are not companies? They are out there to make money, after all, and they will draw their own conclusions as to why you should feed your pet the diet that they are selling. It's just common sense. That's why you should just become an informed buyer and buy what makes you comfortable. That's pretty much what that article that you linked to (I just read it) said. Become educated and buy accordingly. I think the kibble I buy for Kubrick (Fromm's) is excellent, and I didn't base that on what Fromm's said, I based that off of independent researchers and by looking at each ingredient and figuring out what they meant. That's basically all that each of us can do, which is what I'm sure you've done for your dogs.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

> Become educated and buy accordingly. I think the kibble I buy for Kubrick (Fromm's) is excellent, and I didn't base that on what Fromm's said, I based that off of independent researchers and by looking at each ingredient and figuring out what they meant. That's basically all that each of us can do, which is what I'm sure you've done for your dogs.


I couldn't agree more! But you have to admit the paragraphs on rendering where pretty scary lol


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Missy,

I don't have any good suggestions....just wanted to let you know that I am sending "anti-poop eating" thoughts to Cash....and hope that you find something that will work soon. I tried bitter apple on the poop and that didn't work, but maybe tobasco/hot peppers will! Let us know.

Scout only eats Lincoln's poop now (not his own) which is much easier to monitor. It is hard if they are eating their own....since only they know when they're going to poop! Ugh.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

I agree. everyone needs to do their own research and do whats best for them. It's to bad though that raw has such a bad rap because of salmonela, bacteria..etc...
I have called a couple other vets in my area asking about Raw food. they all say they do not reccomend a puppy or any dog being on a raw only diet. All 3 I called told me to put my dog on Hills.. lol.. i hate HILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Look, even Oprah's Vet promotes a Raw diet!! come on!! its Oprah!! 

http://www.oprah.com/tows/slide/200704/20070425/slide_20070425_350_113.jhtml

Ryan


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Beamer said:


> Look, even Oprah's Vet promotes a Raw diet!! come on!! its Oprah!!
> 
> http://www.oprah.com/tows/slide/200704/20070425/slide_20070425_350_113.jhtml
> 
> Ryan


If you go to his site (the vets) he has a list of which foods are best to feed in order. Raw prey comes first but I don't think Bogart or Brando would actually be able to kill anything except maybe a squirrel and even with that if they caught one I don't think they'd know what to do with it. I think they just love the chase


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Dora would totally be okay with me bringing a bunch of rabbits and squirrels into the yard!!! But then we would have post about eating that poo


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Okay I know back to topic...

But let's just say hopefully the next time Oprah goes to pick a dog hope she doesn't look for a teacup havanese.... similar to a rare white golden!

http://www.grca.org/pec/whitegolden.html


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

*update*

I have been feeding cash the NV Instict Canned for two days now with a drop ok kibble mixed in for crunch ---I was shocked at how much I was supposed to feed him- it filled the bowl twice as much as the medallions. Cash wolfed it down as if he hadn't eaten for weeks-- yesterday was the first time he was not extremely intent on getting at his poop--- of course we didn't give him a chance. But he even went out in back with out his leash as was easily lured back to after the unexpected deed. Could he have just been starving? Or by cooking the medallions was I leaching away nutrition. This did all start up again when I was told to get him to lose some weight-- maybe he is meant to be a 25 lb hav and I have been depriving him.

I was feeding him the medallions based on the fact that I wanted him to eat kibble - but he has not been eating the kibble which is always down-- they say they will eat kibble if they are hungry-- I guess not when there is poo around.

Of course it is really too early to say-- and this morning he only ate half the bowl- so maybe he will start regulating his own food intake-- or he is sick of the canned. But I would say it is a positive sign in the right direction.


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## Susie (Oct 15, 2007)

Here are a couple of articles on the many reasons dog do this. yuk.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Stop-Dogs-Eating-Dog-Poop-(Coprophagia)&id=162003

http://www.dogtrainingbasics.com/PoopEaters.htm

Here is a link for the product for-bid that helps in getting them to stop. I don't have any affiliation with this particular web site. It is to give an idea of the product.

http://www.entirelypets.com/forbid.html;_ylc=X1MDMjAyMjI3NjA5OQRfcgMyBGJ0A3Byb2QtY2xpY2sEZHN0aQNmb3JiaWQEaW5BcnJheQMEc2kDZW50aXJlbHlwZXRzBHNyY2kDYml0YXBzcHJheThvBHZfbW4DclByb2RBZmYEdl9vcmQDMgR2X3JpZAM2X211ZF8xMDc3MjIwOTQ4BHZfc24Dc3RvcmVzLnByb2R1Y3RyZWNvcw--

Bailey did it the first week she lived with me. Perhaps it was being nervous, or as my daughter said, she wanted to please me so if she made a mistake she ate it to 'hide the evidence'. I don't care how 'natural' it is, I find it gross.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Missy, does Cash feel skinny to you (regardless of what the scale says)? When you put your hands on his rib cage, does it feel very bony? Or do you feel a layer of fleshiness? 

Maybe he was just really hungry. If you have a digital scale, you can try weighing him once a week to see if he is getting too many calories with your new feeding strategy.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

I have to say, I do not understand these feeding instructions that all these different type/brands of food use?? Why does the canned version say to give 2 X the amount of raw? weird.. All the kibbles vary aswell for feeding instructions... what gives?

Ryan


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

The canned has a higher water content. I don't trust the feeding guidelines on the bags - they are often way off. If you can figure out how many calories your dog needs per day, and how many calories are in a cup of the food you are feeding, then you can figure out how much they need.

In general, kibbles are anywhere from 350-500 cals/cup. "Real" food (raw or cooked) is about half the calories as kibble (if you compare the same amount). 

You just need to feel and weigh your dog regularly to see if he/she is getting enough or too much food :biggrin1:


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Ryan, not everything has the same exact amount of calories in it. Obviously the medallions are more fat and calorie rich than the canned. And kibble is the same way, some are a lot more fattening than others and should be given less of. That's why you should follow how many calories are in each food rather than go by what other people are feeding of their other kibble.

lol, Jane, we posted at the same time!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Jane, Actually no, Cash feels like a pudge! I have had a hard time figuring if it was fur/skin vs fat but I can not feel his ribs and that is why I asked the vet. the vet said he (and jasper) have a bit too much fat. I was beginning to feel his ribs a bit more once he started to not eat the kibble. 

Ryan, I don't know about that? if you go to the natures variety site and do their calculator--- it says I should give Cash at 19lbs with moderate activity about 6 medallions a day (which is 6 oz)-- or-- about 11oz of canned --or-- 1 cup and 1/8 of kibble. So definetlly less raw than anything else.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Wow! This thread took a turn to an interesting debate! lol, Some great points made, I'd just like to interject that I don't think homecooked food necessarily shortens a dog life, but rather veterinarian care and vaccines are probably mostly to contribute to extending life than kibble. 

I've done lots of research on raw, homecooked and kibble..and the conclusion that I have come to, is that each dog is different and where one might thrive with kibble, another will thrive on raw and/or homecooked. Gucci gets a little bit of all three, not prepackaged raw, but rather seared fresh meats, so I guess that kinda counts.

I think it is individual to find what works for your dog that also works for the owner 

Missy, I would try the hot sauce! 

Kara


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I am armed with Hot Sauce Kara, good old fashioned tabasco--- so far since going to canned I have not had to use it. he seems to be doin his Biz and walking on.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

*Solid Gold Coprophagia (anti-poop eating) supplement*

Missy, look what I found....I wonder if this stuff really works or not. Has anyone tried it???

http://www.solidgoldhealth.com/products/showproduct.php?id=44&code=670

It has peppermint and parsley in it. That would mean it would make their stools smell minty fresh... so if they continued to eat their poop, their breath would smell better???? Hmmm.......I'm skeptical!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

well, so much for canned. Cash wouldn't touch at all yesterday- but wolfed down the medallions. Thinking about the nutrients thing and the microwaving possibly destroying them--- I am going to defrost them first before I microwave them-so that they can be less cooked. I will also feed cash as though he gets no kibble (since he is refusing to eat it) and see if that helps- I also am armed with hot sauce every time i go out with him-- DH doesn't seem to keen on taking it with him


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Oh God! Have you ever eaten nuked meat? It tastes disgusting. uke: If you really really need to cook the medallions may I suggest you put the pan on a high heat and just sear the outside of the medallions leaving the inside still raw for the most part.


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## RCKNROB (Nov 27, 2007)

I tried cooking the medallions on the stove and they stink so bad. The girl at the store told me they should not be cooked and I believe her. They stunk up my whole house. I just buy regular raw meat at the grocery store and pack it in freezer bags and thaw it out each day. I use the food grinder to mix in veggies and fruit. I give them Merrick kibble. They eat very little of the kibble unless I add the water to make gravy. That kibble makes them poop really big soft fluffy poop. Augie eats like a pig and Diva eats like a bird. I have mixed feelings about this raw and kibble diet for dogs. I agree with Kara, I think most of the sickness is from the genes and count on the vet and vaccines to keep the healthy as well as lots of love. Then I hear vaccines are not good for them. I choose to mix it up and give some of each. I also give the supplements advised by Divas breeder for health max and growth max. Seems like we do more for our dogs diet than we do ours,hey that is a little strange don't you think.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Why all this controversy about dog food? Especially after what happened with the recalls. I know we all want the best for our dogs to help them maintain a healthy, long life. But, I had two mutts, big dogs, and fed them only supermarket kibble and canned. They lived to be 16 and 17 yrs old, with no health problems except for age.

I think you have to find the food that works best for your lifestyle and for your dog. I feed mine a combo of 2 very good dry. Howver, the only way I can get them to eat it, other than starve them, is to add to it. So they get Little Cesar, or chicken, turkey, etc added with some veggies snuck in.

They are not overweight. Shelby is 11.8 lbs at 16 mos and Kodi probably weighs a lb more at 27 mos. So far, they have been very healthy. They will be due for their vet visits soon, so I'll know more in a few weeks. 

The first time I tried raw, I made the mistake of nuking it. Kodi looked at me like I was trying to poison him, and for all I know, I might have. I might try raw again soon, because I just found a store nearby that sells it.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Those pre-packaged commercial raw foods (or any raw food with bones) are not to be nuked or cooked! They are sold raw for a reason.. lol.. Anyhow, the bones can splinter when cooked, so that is always a big concern!


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Well I agree about the raw. I only feed my guys raw. I just thought that searing them would be better than nuking them if you felt you had to absolutely cook them a bit lol


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

well, Jasper will not eat it the medallions raw- so I actually never tried it with Cash--- but they do love it lightly cooked in the microwave with their greenbeans and potatoes. I would love to be able to commit to home cooked-- but I know I could not keep it up.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Daniel -- Check all the expiry dates on the raw food that you buy from Global. I bought a pack of NV lamb medallions last week and it expired in Oct 07! 

Ryan


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

DanielBMe said:


> If your dogs are let's say both 17lbs. An adult dog show have between 2-3% of their weight in raw food. At 2.5% for a 17lb Hav that's 6.8 ounces of food a day. Which would be almost 7 medallions. .


Daniel, after the miserable attempt with the canned NV. I started feeding Cash (and Jasper) more medallions (and I am only lightly cooking them now) Cash is getting 6 and an egg every other day. (he is only getting 6 because they are only moderately active and he is not thin) But since I have been doing this - we have been able to call him away from his poo very easily. I am keeping my fingers crossed-- it has only been a bit and we have been watching him like a hawk-- but I am hopeful that more food has solved the problem. Neither of them are eating much kibble now except for training treats. (it is amazing that they love it out of my hand- but not a bowl)

thanks for the tips and the math.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Wow, it took me a while to get through all the posts, and boy what a debate!! My 2 cents, is find what works for your dog and stick to it. Every dog is different and has different needs ( different lines have different needs) and its up to us to find them.

Missy, focus on what you want to achieve and stick to it. The problem we sometimes have, is we don't follow our gut instinct, and we are swayed too much by what others say to do. I have second guessed myself for too long, and have finally decided I need to focus on what I feel is best for my havanese.

Missy, I am happy to hear Cash is responding to your recall off his "poop", keep on being consistent and be clear to him that you don't want him to do that anymore. When he listens to you, reward him with a nice massage, or something he likes to do - like playing or something. You can do it and so can Cash!! :cheer2:


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## luchetel (Jan 15, 2007)

Oh my gosh- I just got through all of your posts- at first my side was hurting from laughing so hard! My two loveeeeee rabbit poop!!! Cat poop is ok too, but not readily available. I am going to try the tabasco sprayed o the poop as I find it.
But then you got into the food controversy- and let me tell you, I do not have a clue as to what you are all talking about ! This food controversy has me sooooo confused!!!!
I read Dr. Martin Goldstein's book- The nature of ANimal Healing- The Definitive Holistic Medicine Guide to Caring for your Dog and Cat"- Many people come from all over the USA to have their pets treated by him. He believes everything is about the food that the pets eat. I must say, I have not "digested" the entire book yet- but what i have done is used his kibble, and supplement with egg etc. I need someone to simplify this all for me.
I am just trying to cope with how to feed the two furbabies- Parker is eating too much, and Jackson too little! (I think Parker is sneaking Jacksons food- he is up to 20 1/2 pounds! )
Yikes! And, I am trying to get Jackson to get more attached to us then to PArker!


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## Roe (Jan 5, 2008)

I don't know if anyone has suggested this yet or not. I read that if you feed a dog pineapple, the pineapple makes the poo taste bad and they won't eat it.
Atleast this is a healthy way to try and solve it. There were too many posts to go through them all so forgive me if this has already been suggested.

Roe


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Roe, thanks for the suggestion. the boys do already get pineapple. doesn't work for that. but I feel it helps their digestion. no need to apologize this has become a long thread.


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## Moko (Dec 11, 2007)

Roe said:


> I don't know if anyone has suggested this yet or not. I read that if you feed a dog pineapple, the pineapple makes the poo taste bad and they won't eat it.
> Roe


I ABSOLUTELY do NOT want to know which scientist discovered THAT...(and HOW he discovered it!)

uke: uke: uke: uke:

Maureen and Molly


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## Roe (Jan 5, 2008)

Actually I also heard about the pineapple on The animal planet. The pineapple makes the poo taste very bitter. Maybe give a bit more. IT is better then giving them something awful. Pebbles always sniffs her poo afterwards but never eats it. Thank God.. she does enough to me as it is lol

Roe


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Roe said:


> I don't know if anyone has suggested this yet or not. I read that if you feed a dog pineapple, *the pineapple makes the poo taste bad* and they won't eat it.
> Atleast this is a healthy way to try and solve it. There were too many posts to go through them all so forgive me if this has already been suggested.
> 
> Roe


Like it doesn't _already_ taste bad??? ound:

The pineapple may have slightly slowed Tori's consumption. I've started using ProZyme as well. Stay tuned...


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Luckily we have discovered Cash only likes fresh poo. So that limits him to the dogs we know. LOL thank god they are so cute!!!!!


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Do certain things added to the diet really effect if they will eat poo or not? I thought i read/heard that dogs have a very small amount of taste buds.. compared to us humans anyhow.. So poop and kibble probably taste the same to them i bet.. lol..
Ryan


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## Roe (Jan 5, 2008)

Ryan
Bitter is bitter and if it tastes bad then they will hesitate to eat another piece of poo. lol And in the meantime they get to eat nice pineapple.


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## Susie (Oct 15, 2007)

Bailey was eating her poo the first couple of weeks I had her. Since I haven't had an animal in the house for quite a while, I was a bit freaked. In addition she is a lover and wants to lick me and kiss me all the time. ewwwwwwuke: She doesn't do it any longer, at least I don't think so. Thank goodness because the thought of being licked by a mouth that just gulped down dog poo is just too much for words.

I feed Bailey Pro plan for sensitive stomach, salmon. She really likes it even though I think it smells nasty. I give her treats that don't have wheat or corn in it (natural type), but am working very hard not to begin giving her table scraps. I don't want to start that bad habit especially since I am a horrible eater and I don't want her getting hooked on the nasty stuff I eat. :nono:

My daughter uses bitter apple on almost everything she doesn't want her dogs and cats getting into, and it works. This past Christmas was the first time in a few years she was able to have a tree that wasn't destroyed by her pesky cats.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Beamer said:


> Do certain things added to the diet really effect if they will eat poo or not?
> Ryan


Pineapple juice stopped Scout from eating his OWN poo. But it didn't stop him from eating Lincoln's poo. Apparently, Lincoln has very tasty poo!! :biggrin1:


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Today Tori and I were working out in the backyard. Well, guess what she found? Yep, seems like there's a neighborhood cat who thinks our yard looks like a toilet! To my knowledge, this is the 1st time she's found any. Seems she's just as drawn to it as she is to her own. Grrrr... As soon as I told her to "drop it!" she quickly grabbed it and ran to the other side of the yard :nono: We SO need to work on obedience!


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Mine will kill for cat poop. Kodi doesn't eat his or Shelby's, but will find the cat's poop. Shelby eats all kinds of poop, but not as often as she used to. So, maybe they grow out of it at some point.


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## Roe (Jan 5, 2008)

Pebbles seems to enjoy eating rabbit poo . IT took me a while to realize that that is what she was so amazed with on the ground. I wondered what kept holding her up from going poo herself. What was it that she seemed to be eating off of the grass ...

Roe


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

I never minded Smarty eating the deer and rabbit pellets but this cat stuff is too much. I can not stand for her to get into it. My barn cats are now using the woods Smarty goes into, since the timber people left the ground so torn up, it is easy for them to dig in. I will not let her loose in there because she thinks cat poop is the best eats she has ever had.


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