# Just saw this on Bydand website...



## enp123

And wondering what others think. Seems like a big shift for this breeder. Elyse


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## TilliesMom

what did you see??


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## enp123

whoops!

http://www.bydandhavanasilkdogs.com/


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## TilliesMom

WHAT in the world?? sounds like they are making "Hava-poos" right?? why are they doing this and calling them "island mini-doodles"" wow. I read through all of the 'reasoning and it still doesn't make sense.


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## davetgabby

Typical. I didn' t need to read it. Been there.


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## misstray

And they're charging more for a hybrid than what I paid for Brody.


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## Thumper

Yes, I heard about this through the Virginia grapevine the other. I'm a little shocked, since they used to be pretty heavily involved with the Havanese Club of America and then broke off to the Silk thing


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## curly_DC

Why is Diane Klumb fair game for open criticism as a breeder? Was it because she was part of the group with Dr. JoAnn Baldwin who broke away from the HCA? As objective as I was when researching the breed of Havanese, it is difficult to argue that a beagle looks like a beagle. Yet, Havanese in the ring look different.


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## krandall

I had also heard. I was astounded. She certainly isn't doing anything to help the perception of Silks by starting to breed hybrids.

What I really don't get is that she says her reason for crossing her dogs with poodles is that the gene pool for Silks is too small... But if that is the case, WHY would they close the stud book to Havanese, especially since there are many other Havanese with the same phenotype as the Silks?

It's a shame.


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## krandall

curly_DC said:


> Why is Diane Klumb fair game for open criticism as a breeder? Was it because she was part of the group with Dr. JoAnn Baldwin who broke away from the HCA? As objective as I was when researching the breed of Havanese, it is difficult to argue that a beagle looks like a beagle. Yet, Havanese in the ring look different.


There are actually lots of breeds that have more than one type. Golden Retrievers are just one example, where there is the "show ring" type and the "working" type. Both fit the breed standard, but the working type is not prefered by judges. (at least at this time)

I think you will find that ANYONE who breeds hybrid dogs is going to get a lot of flack from most people seriously involved in purebred dogs. I DON'T think it has anything to do with who she is.


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## irnfit

She's getting flack because of her stance with Havanese vs Havana Silk Dogs. Read all the info on the website, then go back and read what she said about the Havs vs HSD's and you'll see "why the flack". And she's asking a hefty price for her mutts. Now that she's abandoned the HSD's, what's happened to them? Are they Havanese again?


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## enp123

I am just very surprised and truly confused--I spoke w/ Diane Klumb early in my search (before I was fortunate enough to find Tom/Pam King and our amazing pup) She "educated" me on line breeding and was adamant that putting two random dogs together is not breeding. She talked a lot about making the gene pool smaller and this seems to be a complete about face. Granted I know very little about genetics, breeding so perhaps I am missing something! I just found it all very curious. When I first looked on her site I actually thought the site had been hacked or something and it was a joke...


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## luv3havs

I think it is all about $$$.


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## The Laughing Magpie

As we age some of us just loose it.


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## tokipoke

Wow. Her reasonings are very weak on why she is breeding these doodles. "People want a smaller dog..." - then they should just choose either a Havanese or a toy poodle. Why do they need these two in one dog - both are nonshedding!! As an owner of a poodle and a Havanese, the type of breeding she is doing is appalling. 

I'm an advocate of rescuing mixed breeds. Not spending exorbitant amounts of money on "experimentation" in doodles just for the breeder to make a buck. Guess this breeder got sucked into the designer dog fad.


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## Thumper

enp123 said:


> I am just very surprised and truly confused--I spoke w/ Diane Klumb early in my search (before I was fortunate enough to find Tom/Pam King and our amazing pup) *She "educated" me on line breeding and was adamant that putting two random dogs together is not breeding. She talked a lot about making the gene pool smaller and this seems to be a complete about face. * Granted I know very little about genetics, breeding so perhaps I am missing something! I just found it all very curious. When I first looked on her site I actually thought the site had been hacked or something and it was a joke...


I think this is why it is so surprising, if you go back to the inception of the HSD, their main premise was preserving very specific traits in the Havanese and this is about as big of a 180' as one can make. With that said,I recall a big split in the board and some resignations about a year ago...I can only speculate that this might have been why some people resigned? Its just pretty contradictory.

Kara


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## curly_DC

I first came onto this forum in November 2011, and that's when I really started to research the history of the Havanese breed. It has nothing to do with "show dogs" compared to working dogs. Havanese within the breed look different!! I did the research, and read the controversy about the Arizona conundrum. I leaned toward agreeing with the Havana Silk crowd. 

I've read articles written by Diane Klumb about breeding dogs. She is vocal in her opinion that breeders are there to make money and to make a profit. I noticed too that what Klumb has pointed out, the language is controlled by a group of people, where you can't say you "bought" a dog, but instead you "adopted" a dog. You're not a pet "owner" but a pet "parent." Klumb has stated, that's ridiculous. 

The mini-doodle hybrid dog is a very popular choice among consumers who have the money to spend on the dog. At $4,000 a dog, maybe they will actually make a profit by selling fewer and better bred dogs, than someone who breeds many litters puppies and sells them online for $1100.

In reading through past discussion threads on this forum and the Havanese Talk forum, it's unfortunate, that I felt like I was deciphering and reading discussions by middle school girls not adults. People are very defensive. I was curious why a breeder would be against providing soaped pictures of her dogs. Or how could an AKC registered champion Havanese have bowed legs when soaped? The dogs look very different when soaped.

I wish the Klumbs and the other breeders well in their endeavors with their breeding.


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## curly_DC

I should add, it looks like my Sergio will have more half brothers and sisters because Trixie, the Dam they are using as the Havana Silk, is also Sergio's "mother." And Sergio really is a great dog! I think the Klumbs are on to a different market of consumers, looking for a different type of dog.


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## rokipiki

She is doing exactly what number of kinology enthusiasts did in the past. Reverend Jack Russel bred different breeds of dogs (they are extinct now) to get that little terrier. It took him more than 30 years to do that ad to register the new breed. Bottom line is that almost all breeds that exist today are result of clever mixing done by people who knew what they were doing. 
I think she has the knowledge to go through that process and to get a new breed. She is also aware of the fact that genetic pool of dogs she has been breeding is so small that it is dangerous to continue breeding them. If she gets the things right world can get new exciting breed many will love.


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## enp123

Interesting. Will she breed the minidoodle to the minidoodle next?


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## krandall

irnfit said:


> She's getting flack because of her stance with Havanese vs Havana Silk Dogs. Read all the info on the website, then go back and read what she said about the Havs vs HSD's and you'll see "why the flack". And she's asking a hefty price for her mutts. Now that she's abandoned the HSD's, what's happened to them? Are they Havanese again?


Only the older, double registered ones. As of last July, HSDAA no longer allowed double registration, so Silk puppies ONLY have HSDAA papers... no AKC papers.


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## krandall

Thumper said:


> I think this is why it is so surprising, if you go back to the inception of the HSD, their main premise was preserving very specific traits in the Havanese and this is about as big of a 180' as one can make. With that said,I recall a big split in the board and some resignations about a year ago...I can only speculate that this might have been why some people resigned? Its just pretty contradictory.
> 
> Kara


No, this has nothing to do with the resignations. (and actually, most of the people resigned once it was clear that they were going to be voted out) It was largely over the fact that the old board had dropped hands-on evaluations of Silks (which used to be mandatory) and without any member input decided that, instead, people would send soap photos to a few members who, supposedly, had the "experience" to decide from these photos whether the puppy was worthy of being a "certified" Silk. Not surprisingly, MANY people balked at this, especially since the people who were supposed to do these evaluations of photos were also old-guard Silk breeders. (doesn't sound exactly impartial, does it?)

There was a new slate of officers put forth before elections, and the members voted in the new slate. Since then, hands on inspections have been re-instated, with an evaluation sheet that is clearly focused on the conformational issues that make a sound dog, as well as "type". The evaluations are being done by conformation experts that are not in any way involved with the Silk breed, so it is a much fairer, more impartial program.


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## krandall

curly_DC said:


> The mini-doodle hybrid dog is a very popular choice among consumers who have the money to spend on the dog. At $4,000 a dog, maybe they will actually make a profit by selling fewer and better bred dogs, than someone who breeds many litters puppies and sells them online for $1100.
> 
> In reading through past discussion threads on this forum and the Havanese Talk forum, it's unfortunate, that I felt like I was deciphering and reading discussions by middle school girls not adults. People are very defensive. I was curious why a breeder would be against providing soaped pictures of her dogs. Or how could an AKC registered champion Havanese have bowed legs when soaped? The dogs look very different when soaped.


Diane badly misrepresents Havanese and Havanese breeders as a whole. Even the "comparison" photos on her site show a dog who is certainly not one of the best representatives of the Havanese breed, and is set up poorly, next to a most extreme Silk. I've seen a lot of Silks, and even if that is the outline they are looking for eventually, at this point, MOST are intermediate between the Silk photo she has on her site and a good quality, modern Havanese. The exception is coat type, where Silk breeders have PURPOSELY been breeding away from curly coats, and many Havanese breeders don't bother, because the curly coat is not outside the standard. Are there bad Havanese breeders out there? Of course there are. But there are many Silk breeders that I wouldn't buy a dog from either.

I agree with you COMPLETELY about the soaps. I don't know why some Havanese breeders won't provide soaps, and I wouldn't buy a dog from someone who wouldn't/couldn't provide me with soaps of the puppy and both parents. With my breeder, we actually soaped all the puppies while I was down there, and she helped me evaluate the comparative conformation of the pups, which was an awesome learning experience! Kodi was not the most "typey" of the puppies, and it was clear that he was bigger boned than the others, but for my purposes, a performance dog, that didn't matter. I certainly wouldn't EXPECT that from a breeder, but I would expect soaps. Bowed legs would be a MAJOR question mark for the long-term soundness of a performance dog.

I am completely, 100% against breeding "designer dogs" AKA "mutts". There are WAY too many of them in shelters. If that's what people want, and there is NO shame in that!!! They should rescue one of the many, MANY nice dogs already in need of homes. And even if you want a puppy, that's not an excuse... You may have to wait a little longer, but there are lots of mixed breed puppies available from shelters too; "oops" litters from bitches surrendered after the ex-owner finds out they've been bred. And many of these litters have a great start in life, born and lovingly raised in foster homes.

BTW, as I think you know, I have NOTHING against Silks or Silk breeders... Kodi, like Sergio, is a double registered Silk/Havanese. And I wish the very best for the continued Silk movement. I hope they have enough dogs in their gene pool that they can establish a truly different type of dog and get AKC recognition, since that is their goal. But until they do, I'd be extremely reticent to purchase an expensive dog without AKC registration.


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## krandall

enp123 said:


> Interesting. Will she breed the minidoodle to the minidoodle next?


If she doesn't, she will NEVER get a "breed" she will continue to get F1 hybrids that range in type from "almost" poodle, to "almost" Silk, and everything in between. No one purchasing a puppy will have any clear idea what their dog will look like as an adult, or what breed its temperament is likely to resemble.

...AND she is BIG TIME re-introducing the curly gene, which Silk breeders have worked hard to remove. That will mean that most of the dogs will require regular trimming to keep their coats manageable.

She's also fooling herself with the idea that both breeds are "hypoallergenic". There are a LOT of us here on the forum with Havs, whose allergies can't tolerate poodles, and I suspect there are allergic poodle owners who couldn't tolerate Hav coats/dander... allergies are very specific.


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## mckennasedona

Wow. She's breeding mutts now and charging high dollar for them. Granted they are healthy muttts....what happened to the outrage over breeding crossbreeds and giving them fancy names in order to charge more for them. Is it all the rage now. Minidoodles,,,oh please.


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## curly_DC

I posted this photo earlier in my photo album here because I thought it was a photo of Sergio with longer bangs. This is actually a photo of Trixie, Sergio's mother, the Dam they will be breeding to produce the mini doodles. Trixie is a beautiful dog. She's a Havana Silk, but also a registered Havanese. She has a longer muzzle, and she looks different from other Havanese I've seen.


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## Carefulove

curly_DC said:


> I posted this photo earlier in my photo album here because I thought it was a photo of Sergio with longer bangs. This is actually a photo of Trixie, Sergio's mother, the Dam they will be breeding to produce the mini doodles. Trixie is a beautiful dog. She's a Havana Silk, but also a registered Havanese. She has a longer muzzle, and she looks different from other Havanese I've seen.


I can't find her in her website. I only see that Julep and Shortcake will be bred to Bogey.


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## curly_DC

Carefulove said:


> I can't find her in her website. I only see that Julep and Shortcake will be bred to Bogey.


It was on another Island Mini Doodles site, maybe a different breeder. Trixie is also a Bydand-bred dog, owned by a different breeder.


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## curly_DC

http://www.realminidoodles.com/our-girls.html

This is the other breeder of the Island Mini Doodles, where Trixie, Sergio's "mom", is the Dam. She's a beautiful dog.


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## TilliesMom

WHY are they being called "mini-doodle"!??? the name itself confuses me. It's a "Hava-poo." right??


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## tokipoke

I understand dog breeds are result of mixing different dogs to produce a breed.

I don't understand what the point of having a Havanese x poodle cross is. The lab/golden x poodle mix has not been established to specific standards, and you get all kinds of variation in temperament and coat type. Sure, trying to develop a new breed may be a guessing game - so I hope this breeder knows sound background in genetics and breeding. What really is the difference between what this breeder is doing and what a BYB does?? And if this breeder is really trying to develop something new, why market these mixes as "DOODLES." Just this name implies that she is cashing in on the designer dog market.


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## Missy

Sigh... So sad. I would lOve Tom to weigh in. 
(they are pretty cute though...but aren't all puppies).


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## krandall

curly_DC said:


> http://www.realminidoodles.com/our-girls.html
> 
> This is the other breeder of the Island Mini Doodles, where Trixie, Sergio's "mom", is the Dam. She's a beautiful dog.


Trixie is a beautiful dog. But there are lots of Havs with longer noses. (and that is within standard... excessively short noses that some "pet" breeders breed for is NOT) Kodi and a lot of the Starborn dogs have longer noses too.


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## krandall

TilliesMom said:


> WHY are they being called "mini-doodle"!??? the name itself confuses me. It's a "Hava-poo." right??


There was some conversation about that on the Silk lists... I guess it depends which breed is the male and which is the female. OTOH, my jaded perspective is that it is to differentiate themselves from back yard/puppy mill "designer dogs". I don't agree with what they are doing, but they DO seem to be doing it in a more carefully thought out way. (even if I think they are jumping to the wrong conclusions)

I was also surprised to see on this "Island Doodle" site that they are mixing 4 different breeds to get the "Mini Doodle". (though they don't say what breeds)


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## krandall

mckennasedona said:


> Wow. She's breeding mutts now and charging high dollar for them. Granted they are healthy muttts....what happened to the outrage over breeding crossbreeds and giving them fancy names in order to charge more for them. Is it all the rage now. Minidoodles,,,oh please.


BTW, Dr. Joanne Baldwin, who is the owner of Elfin Havana Silk Dogs, posted on one of the Silk lists that she sees a LOT of hybrids (purpose-bred and "mutts") in her practice, and that they, also have many of the same problems of similar purebred dogs. Many of the problems that dogs have are part of the genome. Breeding on breed to another doesn't NECESSARILY mean that you won't have a genetic problem crop up. This is especially true with related breeds.

So a hybrid "designer dog" doesn't necessarily mean a healthier dog. Especially when I see a site like the "Island Doodle" site which gives a rather short list of testing they are doing on the parents.


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## The Laughing Magpie

Karen, You are so right about the breeding in my dog club there are some third generation breeders (not havanese) they all are science people and when some of the kids ask how you get a liver dalmation she starts drawning a genome, usually the kids make a fast exit!!


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## Carefulove

I am sorry if this offends anyone but MY opinion is that they are doing it for the money and nothing else. 

We know that Silk breeders do their best to eliminate the curly gene, why would a Well known Silk breeder mix her Silks with a Poodle? :suspicious:


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## lfung5

Carefulove said:


> I am sorry if this offends anyone but MY opinion is that they are doing it for the money and nothing else.
> 
> We know that Silk breeders do their best to eliminate the curly gene, why would a Well known Silk breeder mix her Silks with a Poodle? :suspicious:


I completely agree and it's shocking. These are some of the same people who I'm sure judged other people for mix breeding and now it's suddenly ok for them....she left the havanese world because she thought her dogs were somehow superior and now is breeding them with poodles. Maybe dementia


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## luv3havs

It's disappointing to see Diane do this. She wrote that wonderful book about
the Havanese and was so devoted to the breed.

I really think it all comes down to money. She's hopping on the bandwagon of the Doodles! That is a lucrative venture to be sure. Look around and see all the Doodles, good and not so good! They are pretty pricey.

I must admit that I'm eager to see what the puppies/dogs will look like.I'll bet they are very pretty and there will be a market for them, since they will be from health tested parents, well socialized etc. She'll be able to get lots of red puppies, from the poodle she is using and we know people just love the reds.

The odd thing to me is that she/they are charging $4,000, which is double the going rate for a well-bred Havanese. And they have a waiting list. Go figure!


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## The Laughing Magpie

If you remember back she use to charge around that much and more.


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## Leah00

Awful. I guess everyone has a price. 

There are 161 breeds recognized by the AKC. According to the Humane Society website there are 3-4 million dogs and cats euthanized in shelters every year. Seriously, why the hell would we need new breeds??

If you can't find a perfect match in the 161 breeds, maybe you need to get a fish.


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## luv3havs

I meant $2,000 from most good Hav breeders. I didn't necessarily mean her Havs.
I didn't know she charged $4,000 for a Hav. Perhaps that was a price for show dogs? Guess that's how she picked her current prices for her new designer breed. LOL

Most likely, she'll do well, choosing the right health-tested parents and socializing the puppies. Some designer dog breeders don't do that and still get high prices for their puppies.


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## lfung5

But when there is a demand, that means another designer dog for puppy mills to breed and even more dogs in shelters......Makes me pretty sick to my stomach to think about it.


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## mckennasedona

I didn't go to her site. She's really charging $4000 for a puppy??? That's insane. Almost everything these days is mixed with Poodle and you can get an extremely cute Poodle plus puppy at any pet store and probably most any WalMart parking lot. Good grief.


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## mckennasedona

Oh wait, I just looked at the site and it says $1800 for a minidoodle. My mistake but I still stand by the rest of my statement.


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## luv3havs

There is a site on which it appears that she is one of the breeders and the stated price is- $1800 to $3800 a puppy.
It is Mangrove Island real minidoodles . I could be mistaken and I apologize if so.
One of the "girls" is named Trixie.

Now I'm done with this topic!


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## Carefulove

Her website states she charges $ 1800 for the mutts.


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## davetgabby

having talked with her online years ago, this comes as no surprise.


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## krandall

Carefulove said:


> I am sorry if this offends anyone but MY opinion is that they are doing it for the money and nothing else.
> 
> We know that Silk breeders do their best to eliminate the curly gene, why would a Well known Silk breeder mix her Silks with a Poodle? :suspicious:


That's certainly what it looks like, when they're charging $4000 for these crossbreeds.


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## krandall

Leah00 said:


> If you can't find a perfect match in the 161 breeds, maybe you need to get a fish.


ound:


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## Thumper

It is a crazy world we live in if people pay TOP dollar for a mutt that has only been given a *cuter* name. Crazy.

People would buy a pile of horse crap if you named it right.. lol

Kara


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## curly_DC

*Time to Let Go and Move On with Your Lives*

848 views and 50 replies for this posting about Bydand and Diane Klumb within a 48 hour time period.

Why so much hatred and name-calling and personal attacks for one breeder? This is what generates discussion?

The ugliness of this thread doesn't reflect well on the Havanese community. I would go out of my way to avoid getting on the bad side of any of you. It's probably best to let your hatred go and move on. Or, if you think you are justified in the statements you are making, if you are really that concerned about Bydand's breeding practices and find it so appalling, shameful, disgusting, and crazy, why don't you stop your immature gossip and do something about it? Send Diane Klumb a letter. Ask for a response.

There are good individuals and families involved in breeding associated with Bydand. They don't deserve your launched attacks. As someone who has posted and participated on this forum for the last few months, I don't feel comfortable sitting by and reading your comments.

It's unfortunate that when the split occurred years ago with HCA and the Havana Silk people, that those inviduals involved couldn't be more professional and mature and work out there differences for the betterment of the breed.

Forgiveness and moving on will be of great benefit to all of you who hold such feelings of anger and hatred toward Bydand and the Klumbs.


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## Carefulove

Michele,

This is a perfect example why your idea of having a black list for Breeders is really not good so great. 
See, In your eyes, She is a perfect breeder, and I honestly have no doubt that she has done wonders for the Silks, her track record shows that, but her actions of last speak volumes of her now. In the eyes of others, perhaps she is not as good as in your eyes.

Is just a difference of opinions and everyone in this forum is entitled to one, whether you like it or not.

I for one, don't agree with the mixing of breeds or her "supposed" reasons for doing it (which I stated earlier), but won't waste my time bashing someone when 1. They can't defend themselves and 2. My comments won't make them change their decisions or outcome of the situation. Now, not everyone thinks the same way and if they want to post as long as they are not disrespecting anyone, is their right to do so.


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## windfallhavs

With all due respect Michele...

Everyone on the forum has the right to voice their opinions. If you don't like the opinions...then don't read the thread. But the people here have the right to post without being chastized. Sorry that you see hatred, when all I see is commentary on her steep decline from a breeder who was once considered reputable to a breeder of havapoos. And you are right...maybe we should stop discussing a mutt breeder on a havanese forum. She certainly does not deserve the extra attention.


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## krandall

Thumper said:


> It is a crazy world we live in if people pay TOP dollar for a mutt that has only been given a *cuter* name. Crazy.
> 
> People would buy a pile of horse crap if you named it right.. lol
> 
> Kara


Hey, careful! That stuff is GREAT in gardens!ound:


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## Leah00

windfallhavs said:


> With all due respect Michele...
> 
> Everyone on the forum has the right to voice their opinions. If you don't like the opinions...then don't read the thread. But the people here have the right to post without being chastized. Sorry that you see hatred, when all I see is commentary on her steep decline from a breeder who was once considered reputable to a breeder of havapoos. And you are right...maybe we should stop discussing a mutt breeder on a havanese forum. She certainly does not deserve the extra attention.


No one could have said it better.


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## windym300

I am usually a lurker but have really been outraged by this whole buisness. Yes we all have our opinions and are entitled to express them. I do not understand alot of the correct breeding practices and so on but after reading the lady on her website explaining her reasoning of breeding poodles with her dogs is completely against all she stood for before. To me that seems insane. You want the curly gene out but then you breed in a curly coat? Her whole explanation seems like total bullcrap to me. I'm sad people will fall for this mumbo jumbo! I had heard this woman was highly respected before she broke away from the Havanese Club. She certainly seems to have a couple people defending her with lots of passion. I'm sure she will come up with other things for others to follow and believe. She sounds like a bit of a cult leader.. I really mean no dissrespect to all who believe in it. I just don't. My opinion and choice.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Actually I am interested in this breeder's thoughts for several reasons. One, the Lowchen has a relatively small gene pool and there can be problems when dealing with this. I tried to read about this breeder's thoughts and finally did print off much of it to read. Don't know about most of you but I find it just too hard to read everything on the computer..I just prefer to print it off.
I did email her and will let you know what response I get. I am interested in knowing where the dogs will be registered, since she says you get pedigree and registration with your puppy...that may be a left over sentence from her site whe she was breeding silks? Or is she still breeding silks and MiniDoodles? I see her price as 1,800.00 not 4,000..I am also interested in how she sells them...with or without a pet contract. 
Long ago I had poodles, actually have had a toy, a standard and miniatures. They were lovely in every way, the popularity led to a quick demise in many of the most admirable traits...yes byb and puppy mills took a toll...
So I will sit down and read her thoughts on breeding..
I do know that some of the other breeds have a contract that forbids any sort of designer breeding...
One of the attractions to designer breeds is the high costs, believe it or not. Many people feel if they pay an extremely high price, the dog is worth more...called exclusion..lol..true but it works in all walks of life, not just dogs...country clubs, cars, watches, etc. I do not see that she is aiming at the "exclusive price" population..
It takes a while to get a new breed accepted by AKC...and she has some experience in that since she went from Havanese to Silks..now she is moving on to designer breeds or what she calls hybrids...she may well carry this off. I don't think she is doing it for the money, but maybe she does want to develop a new breed. JMHO. Again, I will let you know how she answers my questions, if you are interested.


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## irnfit

Michele, my question to you is why did you join HF? Seems the two threads you started are both a bit antagonistic, imo.


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## The Laughing Magpie

Flynn, The Silks to my knowledge are not even listed as foundation stock with the AKC yet, but they have enjoyed for sometime dual listing as Havanese. I personally feel both breeds are wonderful dogs. Back in her W.VA days when she was on the top of her game she charged a hugh amount for her dogs. 

Don't know what happened to her but often people in clubs let things become too personal and cannot handle a polittcally charged environment, they get mad, they get unreasonable, they get hurt, when club members differ in opinions, they often feel any lose of control is the end of the world, so then they go to war. It is really sad when anyone suddenly goes against all that they once espoused. So if after breeding Silks she finds it not working, why not go back to Havanese (one of my personal favorites) or another AKC breed or a breed recognized by a foreign registry, why doddle/mutts.

I think that we are all so interested in this thread because; We are shocked, saddened, intrigued, and some of us are appalled. Why would someone respected in the breeding world all of a sudden start breeding designer mutts, it makes them lose years of creditability.

I don't think anybody is being mean, this is newsworthy in any dog forum where good breeding practices are embraced.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

The Laughing Magpie said:


> Flynn, The Silks to my knowledge are not even listed as foundation stock with the AKC yet, but they have enjoyed for sometime dual listing as Havanese. I personally feel both breeds are wonderful dogs. Back in her W.VA days when she was on the top of her game she charged a hugh amount for her dogs.
> 
> Don't know what happened to her but often people in clubs let things become too personal and cannot handle a polittcally charged environment, they get mad, they get unreasonable, they get hurt, when club members differ in opinions, they often feel any lose of control is the end of the world, so then they go to war. It is really sad when anyone suddenly goes against all that they once espoused. So if after breeding Silks she finds it not working, why not go back to Havanese (one of my personal favorites) or another AKC breed or a breed recognized by a foreign registry, why doddle/mutts.
> 
> I think that we are all so interested in this thread because; We are shocked, saddened, intrigued, and some of us are appalled. Why would someone respected in the breeding world all of a sudden start breeding designer mutts, it makes them lose years of creditability.
> 
> I don't think anybody is being mean, this is newsworthy in any dog forum where good breeding practices are embraced.


I agree Robbie, the silks are not recognized by AKC, I just meant she has been through the procedures before and knows hlow it is done. After spending a long while reading her posts on her site, I think she is concerned about the small gene pool of the silks and resulting autoimmune problems she sees inherent in breeding from that pool. 
She is definitely committed to this path and has others who are united with her, although she did not say who. The lady has definitely done some genetic background study and is knowledgeable. It may be a personal challenge, but from my reading of her site, I don't think it is money. JMHO 
Many good things have come from people who get disgruntled and go off in a different direction....i.e, Steve Jobs, for one example, and they are usually strong willed with definite visions and yes, there is an element of power involved also. 
All I can say is read what she has written about hybrids, and linebreeding, there is much there to absorb, then decide what you think..no matter what it is an interesting time.
Again, I don't know this lady, and perhaps those who do know her have different opinions.


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## krandall

I agree with you, Robbie. But I also truly believe Michele is asking her questions in good faith. She is new to dogs, and through no fault of her own other than doing due diligence in choosing a dog whose breeder did all the things we tell people a breeder should do, ended up right in the middle of a mess. I know how she feels, because I got Kodi at a time when the "Silk Wars" were still in high gear. I really didn't understand why my cute, well-bred little dog (in my case bred by a forum member!!!) caused me to be attacked on a semi regular basis by some people. Most of those people are no longer on HF, and the general tone these days seems to be to accepting of Silks, and those who have chosen to split off and form that new breed. There are going to continue to be dogs who straddle both worlds, with dual registrations for at least the next 15 years or so. But MOST of these dogs are already in their forever homes, and their owners love them no matter what. Sergio is one of a handful that change owners at an older age.

I think, if I read correctly between the lines, that Michele bought Sergio from Diane or one of the small group of people who have started this new "minidoodle" venture. Certainly, she has pointed out that Sergio's dam is one of the bitches that will be used to produce them. I think it's not surprising that she feels defensive about those breeders. 


So, whatever we think of minidoodles or Diane Klumb, and I know there were hard feelings between her and some members of the forum (and MANY members of HCA) let's go easy on Michele. She is a young, new dog owner who is trying to learn to do the best for the new love of her life and fell into the middle of a controversy.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

krandall said:


> I agree with you, Robbie. But I also truly believe Michele is asking her questions in good faith. She is new to dogs, and through no fault of her own other than doing due diligence in choosing a dog whose breeder did all the things we tell people a breeder should do, ended up right in the middle of a mess. I know how she feels, because I got Kodi at a time when the "Silk Wars" were still in high gear. I really didn't understand why my cute, well-bred little dog (in my case bred by a forum member!!!) caused me to be attacked on a semi regular basis by some people. Most of those people are no longer on HF, and the general tone these days seems to be to accepting of Silks, and those who have chosen to split off and form that new breed. There are going to continue to be dogs who straddle both worlds, with dual registrations for at least the next 15 years or so. But MOST of these dogs are already in their forever homes, and their owners love them no matter what. Sergio is one of a handful that change owners at an older age.
> 
> I think, if I read correctly between the lines, that Michele bought Sergio from Diane or one of the small group of people who have started this new "minidoodle" venture. Certainly, she has pointed out that Sergio's dam is one of the bitches that will be used to produce them. I think it's not surprising that she feels defensive about those breeders.
> 
> So, whatever we think of minidoodles or Diane Klumb, and I know there were hard feelings between her and some members of the forum (and MANY members of HCA) let's go easy on Michele. She is a young, new dog owner who is trying to learn to do the best for the new love of her life and fell into the middle of a controversy.


Good suggestion Karen. I know people are passionate about this subject but to be honest, change is inevitable. Hope Michelle sticks around, she sounded as though she might have decided not to...hope she reads your message..


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## misstray

I'll be honest...I went to the website having never heard of that kennel name and really had no clue who the breeder was (and still don't other than I know she's written books) and didn't see any mention of anything other than the kennel name while I was on the site. 

I only know very limited information on the whole silk controversy as that was before I started looking into Havanese seriously. I did do a bit of research on it and ended up stopping when I ran into an article stating that silks had to be a certain age and pass a bunch of tests to get to be called silks and otherwise they'd be "just be" Havanese. That made no sense to me, so I dropped it at that point.

Also, I'm apparently an "idiot" because the pictures on the site showing how so obviously the Havanese and silk are different breeds aren't all that obvious to me.


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## The Laughing Magpie

I don't think anyone is picking on Michele, she has no need to defend her breeders choice, because it does not effect her dog, her dog came from what now many be a once great gene pool, and I can understand how she may feel a bit upset. For myself I have never had a problem with Silks I think of them as a Havanese of another flavor because many of the Silk breeders are passionate.

As for making the gene pool stronger by breeding 'hybrids' the goldendoodles and labradoodles are coming down with the same problems and instead of one set of problems they now come with two pools of problems. I was told by a Vet who does research that, even with the best breedings there is a law of averages an example is; things like temperment, that the more litters you have the chance of having a shy one is not a chance it is a probability (she even had math with it), and other things in the orginal gene pool and there are certian ages things turn on. The only way to truely screen it out is developing tests and figureing out what gene or chromosome causes it, that is expensive. Also I know a few researchers that believe that many of the autoimmune issues we are seeing in animals and people will have an element of our environment in it, may act as a trigger or as the actual source. I have said it before it is very complex. 

I will never be comfortable with these cross breeds as long as our pet population is exploding. From my end the addition of more cross breeds will just give the makers of Euthasol more profits.


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## krandall

misstray said:


> I only know very limited information on the whole silk controversy as that was before I started looking into Havanese seriously. I did do a bit of research on it and ended up stopping when I ran into an article stating that silks had to be a certain age and pass a bunch of tests to get to be called silks and otherwise they'd be "just be" Havanese. That made no sense to me, so I dropped it at that point.


That's not quite right. Any dog born of two Silk parents can be registered as a Silk. But they only can get companion registration unless they have passed the tests and have been evaluated. The age for all of that used to be 2. Now, while some of the final testing needs to be at two (hips) the evaluation can be any time after 18 months.

Kodi is a registered Silk and has never had ANY testing. But it isn't necessary because he is neutered and will never be used for breeding. He is also a registered Havanese, but that is because he happened to be born of "foundation stock" parents who were Havanese before the Silk movement even existed. As of last summer, Silks CANNOT be registered as Havanese, even if the parents are double registered.


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## krandall

The Laughing Magpie said:


> As for making the gene pool stronger by breeding 'hybrids' the goldendoodles and labradoodles are coming down with the same problems and instead of one set of problems they now come with two pools of problems. I was told by a Vet who does research that, even with the best breedings there is a law of averages an example is; things like temperment, that the more litters you have the chance of having a shy one is not a chance it is a probability (she even had math with it), and other things in the orginal gene pool and there are certian ages things turn on. The only way to truely screen it out is developing tests and figureing out what gene or chromosome causes it, that is expensive. Also I know a few researchers that believe that many of the autoimmune issues we are seeing in animals and people will have an element of our environment in it, may act as a trigger or as the actual source. I have said it before it is very complex.


This is SO true. These immune an allergy problems are NOT "Havanese problems" or "purebred problems", they are DOG problems. I subscribe to "Dogs Naturally" magazine, and this issue is all about vaccine reactions. This is not found in just one or just a few breeds. The problems are wide spread in the SPECIES. The problem is one of over vaccination, not a small gene pool. Likewise, there are dogs of Many breeds and mixed breeds with bad allergies. Just as with people, our toxic environment is causing a lot of these problems.



The Laughing Magpie said:


> I will never be comfortable with these cross breeds as long as our pet population is exploding. From my end the addition of more cross breeds will just give the makers of Euthasol more profits.


I agree. If you want a mixed breed, help the over population problem and get one from a shelter!!!


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## irnfit

I want to get something straight. I didn't mean to offend Michele, but I was just curious. A few of us had heard about this whole Diane Klumb thing from other forums, but didn't think it was important enough to drag it out on HF. I even went on all the "mini-doodle" websites and just thought it was a strange turn of events, considering all that happened. Sorry if Michele (or anyone else) thought I was out of line.


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## Leah00

To be fair, Michele didn't start this thread. She started the "backyard breeders" thread but someone else started this one.


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## enp123

Sorry--I started the thread. I did not mean in any way to cause a stir. As I mentioned I was really surprised by the turn of events but being that I am not that well versed in breeding I was truly curious what others thought. As I mentioned I spoke w/ Diane and read her book and I (like others) thought she was knee deep in Havanese breeding and the quest for the perfect Havanese! I have found many of the discussion and perspectives on this forum interesting and educational and we really just looking to hear reactions from others.


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## Carefulove

irnfit said:


> I want to get something straight. I didn't mean to offend Michele, but I was just curious. A few of us had heard about this whole Diane Klumb thing from other forums, but didn't think it was important enough to drag it out on HF. I even went on all the "mini-doodle" websites and just thought it was a strange turn of events, considering all that happened. Sorry if Michele (or anyone else) thought I was out of line.


Whaaaat? I just heard about it here for the very first time.

How come I am always the last one to find out about everything. :frusty:


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## Ruthi

Karen, this isnt related to this, but, I would love to see a picture of Kodi.


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## krandall

Well, there are lots of pix of him on the forum, and of course there is the one in my sig. But I'll try to put something up tomorrow. (I'm on my IPad now, and I don't know of a way to do it from here!). Remind me if I don't remember!


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## Ruthi

I figured there were pics of him, just dont know where, and not to good at finding stuff on here. Thanks


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## Suzi

curly_DC said:


> I should add, it looks like my Sergio will have more half brothers and sisters because Trixie, the Dam they are using as the Havana Silk, is also Sergio's "mother." And Sergio really is a great dog! I think the Klumbs are on to a different market of consumers, looking for a different type of dog.


 All I can say is the new type of dog should be called a havapooh I don't get the doodle. Its like a cockapoo only they are about $400.00 and mind you a very nice dog. The HSC was striving for a low maintenance coat and trying to breed out CD and making theories about Dorthy mixing the original Havanese with two other breeds. Wouldn't what she is doing be the same thing? If the theories are true this new breed is really no different. I really don't care what she does. I just don't like people putting down the long hard work that has been within the history of our wonderful American Havanese. If we are starting to see health issues something does really need to be done. Its sad because reality is that there are only a hand full of really good breeders compared to the demand for the Havanese. Way too many bad breeders just out to make a buck. IMO


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## Suzi

curly_DC said:


> 848 views and 50 replies for this posting about Bydand and Diane Klumb within a 48 hour time period.
> 
> Why so much hatred and name-calling and personal attacks for one breeder? This is what generates discussion?
> 
> The ugliness of this thread doesn't reflect well on the Havanese community. I would go out of my way to avoid getting on the bad side of any of you. It's probably best to let your hatred go and move on. Or, if you think you are justified in the statements you are making, if you are really that concerned about Bydand's breeding practices and find it so appalling, shameful, disgusting, and crazy, why don't you stop your immature gossip and do something about it? Send Diane Klumb a letter. Ask for a response.
> 
> There are good individuals and families involved in breeding associated with Bydand. They don't deserve your launched attacks. As someone who has posted and participated on this forum for the last few months, I don't feel comfortable sitting by and reading your comments.
> 
> It's unfortunate that when the split occurred years ago with HCA and the Havana Silk people, that those inviduals involved couldn't be more professional and mature and work out there differences for the betterment of the breed.
> 
> Forgiveness and moving on will be of great benefit to all of you who hold such feelings of anger and hatred toward Bydand and the Klumbs.


 Earlier you were putting down members of our club as calling us high school I think you seem a bit defensive just because your dogs mother is birthing doddles. Everyone has the right to their own opinion. I for one don't like the way she puts down our American Havanese. I do think their is a difference in planed breeding by an experienced breeder viruses a dog that just got breed with the dog down the street. I happen to believe that our precious Havanese are a mixed breed. I hope in the long run the new breed is a healthy dog that rich people can show off. I also think it would be nice for the advantage Joe to be-able to afford a nice pet. A pet that doesn't have health issues.


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## krandall

Ruthi said:


> Karen, this isnt related to this, but, I would love to see a picture of Kodi.


I'll post them in a new thread.


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## Thumper

I hope that we are way past the Silk/Hav debate as since then we can all work together in the common goal of the breed we love. We jointly set up a local meetup group for silks and havs, we get along well here with no issues and all love each others dogs and respect one another's opinion whether it differs from ours or not, in true American form  I friends in both clubs and don't see anything good that can come out arguing it and really, I just don't think people are mad about the split anymore.

Kara


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## pjewel

Stepping aside from the specifics of this (or any other) thread, I do get Michele's (irnfit's) question. The way you put something out in a static medium such as this, tends to drive the discussion, and you certainly can come off as aggressive and confrontational. All it would take to change perceptions would be to reread your comments before hitting post.


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## juliav

Wow!!!!

I just saw this thread and I am truly speechless (not an easy thing to accomplish). Just when I think nothing can surprise me anymore, I see a once respected breeder and judge make a 180 degree turn around and advocate designer mutts!!!!! Now that's what I call crossing over to the dark side!!!! So let's add some health issues to the mix. . I am not well versed in minis or toys, but there are annual cerf testing for breeding dogs, there is prcd-PRA, which is a form of PRA (progressive retinal atrophy) which leads to blindness by the age of 5. Luckily there is a genetic test for it. There is leg/calf perthes, patellar luxation and I am sure there are more. oh, how the mighty have fallen and all in the name of the all might buck!!!


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## The Laughing Magpie

Julie, You said it so well! When they mix the pools they often have two sets of genes with the same issues and more. Our pet population does not need more of this!


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## mckennasedona

Trying to create a new breed seems like a huge gamble. As stated often in this thread, there are lots of mixed breed dogs available at every local shelter. At one time or another many dogs mixed with Poodle (are they supposed to be the ultimate dog or what?) attempted to become a new breed. Many, many years ago I beleive that cockapoos were going to be an official breed. Never happened. I had two of them. I paid a whopping $35 for one and the other was a shelter dog. They are terrific little dogs.

Funny about the name Minidoodle. Doodle comes from Labra*d*or and P*oodle* If these dogs are *H*ava*n*ese and P*oodle* wouldn't they be Island MiniHoodles or MiniNoodles?


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## Carefulove

mckennasedona said:


> ...Funny about the name Minidoodle. Doodle comes from Labra*d*or and P*oodle* If these dogs are *H*ava*n*ese and P*oodle* wouldn't they be Island MiniHoodles or MiniNoodles?


Watcha gettting? A Hoodle...ound:


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## krandall

I prefer the Noodle, myself!:biggrin1:


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## juliav

mckennasedona said:


> At one time or another many dogs mixed with Poodle (are they supposed to be the ultimate dog or what?)
> 
> Funny about the name Minidoodle. Doodle comes from Labra*d*or and P*oodle* If these dogs are *H*ava*n*ese and P*oodle* wouldn't they be Island MiniHoodles or MiniNoodles?


I don't know about the ultimate breed, but Standard Poodles are absolutely amazing (can you tell I am seriously biased) and while minis and toy are supposed to be the same dog just different variety, they are not. That's why when looking for a small dog I couldn't bring myself to get either a mini or a toy. I don't know, but in comparison to standards I found them lacking in just about every way. Now the Havanese turned out to be exactly the kind of small dog I wanted and he is so similar to my poodles is scary!!! And believe me, if we don't like the designer poodle crosses, imagine how the reputable poodle breeders feel!!!! And if you really want to see a reaction, you should visit the Lab forum. We are down right civilized here. lol


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## krandall

I don't know a ton of standard poodles, but I have to say, I've liked every one I've met. Sort of the opposite with the little ones. I'm sure there are some nice ones out there, but I haven't met them.

I'm not sold on the crosses being any healthier, and crossing a Hav with a mini or toy poodle, to me, is breeding in all things that are WORSE than what we already have in the breed in terms of temperament, coat, and even movement. I don't care for the little mincey trot most of the toys and minis have.


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## mckennasedona

Julia, I adore Poodles. Your standards are beautiful. My sister had two toys that I just loved. I was just curious as to why Poodle seems to be the go-to dog to mix with something. I suppose the hypoallergenic idea and the sweet personalities.


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## juliav

mckennasedona said:


> Julia, I adore Poodles. Your standards are beautiful. My sister had two toys that I just loved. I was just curious as to why Poodle seems to be the go-to dog to mix with something. I suppose the hypoallergenic idea and the sweet personalities.


Thanks for the compliment. 

I have no idea why everyone is so crazy about mixing all kinds of breeds with a poodle. If you want a low allergy, intelligent, active, completely non shedding and all around great dog, get a poodle. But if you get a doodle, because they you don't like the look of a poodle that's just plain silly. I've heard doodle owners tell me they hate the long, pointy nose of a poodle, that's why they get a doodle. They also hate the over the top look of a show poodle. My response is grow in the poodle face and put them in a regular sporting cut. The best looking doodle is a poodle! Plus none of the doodles are hypo allegenic, because they are 1/2 lab or golden, so depending whether the coat is curly, wavy or straight it will be more or less shedding. The quality of the coat is very hard to maintain. According to my groomer, they mat horribly and for some reason many doodle owners fail to brush their dogs regularly and often times the only thing left to do is shave them. 

I can't see how crossing a hav with a poodle and creating a havapoo or havadoodle can improve either breed.


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## Carefulove

Question: If you were to cross a Havanese with a Chihuahua, would you call it a Havapeño?

Ok, Ya'll can go back to ignoring me now...

:focus:


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## krandall

Carefulove said:


> Question: If you were to cross a Havanese with a Chihuahua, would you call it a Havapeño?
> 
> Ok, Ya'll can go back to ignoring me now...
> 
> :focus:


Or would it be Havahuahua?

Would a Dachshund Havanese cross be a Havweenie?:biggrin1:


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## Carefulove

krandall said:


> Or would it be Havahuahua?
> 
> Would a Dachshund Havanese cross be a Havweenie?:biggrin1:


Hav-a-weenie ound:


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## TilliesMom

Carefulove said:


> Hav-a-weenie ound:


hahahahaha! awesome! LOL


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## Thumper

> Question: If you were to cross a Havanese with a Chihuahua, would you call it a Havapeño?


ound:

I think Poo-nese is a bit cuter and more marketable...or even poo-va-nese, poo doesn't always have to be on the end, does it? Who made that rule?

Kara


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## tokipoke

Yes, the ultimate dog is the poodle. They keep crossing every breed to a poodle "trying to create a new breed," touting hybrid vigor. Instead, what happens is you get a bunch of poodle mutts. Such an insult to an already beautiful breed. I also really love the Havanese breed and don't want them tainted either.

All the reasons to get a lab/golden doodle over a poodle are quite stupid. Especially if you're going to pay a lot of money for one. Doodles also shed like crazy.


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## atsilvers27

I have probably had my hands on over 50+ doodles and I can honestly say I've only ever seen 1 with gorgeous hair, and she shed a ton. The other ones are too like a lab or golden, and the ones that turn out with more poodle in them have horribly thick coats that mat up like a nighmare. Usually the parents are in too much denial about how to keep up with them and then get very upset when they have to be shaved. There are two clients that bring their high maintenence doodles every week for a bath or haircut because they won't brush them at home, but even then if the hair gets too long it will mat up from one week to the next. A lot of the golden doodles have allergies as well and are prone to hot spots. I don't understand the whole thing, most of them have horrible coats and I think their temperments can be unstable. Many of the owners are also novice dog owners, makes me wonder how the breeder can sell a dog without telling them what they're getting into: the world's most high maintenance pet grooming dog.


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## luv3havs

Tokipoke,
I just looked online at a standard poodle in a sport cut that you mentioned and I think the look is just adorable. They actually look like some of the Goldendoodles that I've seen. It's a great look if you want a "shaggy" type dog with the poodle temperament and no shedding. I've seen so many weird looking Doodles. They get soo big and gangly looking and some are very high strung, although some are wonderful.The Labradoodles don't have nice coats at all.

But I'd much prefer a spoo in a sport cut. Sorry I can't post the picture.


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## Luciledodd

Personally I don't care about Diane whats her name. Obviously she is trying to make money and with the guardianship thing, she can do it with someone else paying for the hybrids and all their vet bills and other maintenance. Wish I had thought of something like that. LOL But the name of the final product should be HAVAPOO.


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## windfallhavs

When I was in Paris last year for the World Show, I saw the most beautiful brace of corded white standard poodles. I had never seen one in person before in cords and they took my breath away! I am not a huge poodle person, but I admit I had a twinge of "I want one of those" when I saw them.


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## marlowe'sgirl

windfallhavs said:


> When I was in Paris last year for the World Show, I saw the most beautiful brace of corded white standard poodles. I had never seen one in person before in cords and they took my breath away! I am not a huge poodle person, but I admit I had a twinge of "I want one of those" when I saw them.


I just googled those - I like how you can see the face. I kinda love the corded look. But i love the soft silky texture of my Hav's hair more; and I know that taking care of cords is way more difficulty than a regular coat.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Luciledodd said:


> Personally I don't care about Diane whats her name. Obviously she is trying to make money and with the guardianship thing, she can do it with someone else paying for the hybrids and all their vet bills and other maintenance. Wish I had thought of something like that. LOL But the name of the final product should be HAVAPOO.


i THINK Diane is calling them Island Minidoodles... and if you google that you come up with somebody else...don't know if she researched that name or not!
as for corded standard poodles, if you want to see a beautiful site on them, look at this.
http://www.ippgazette.com/Issues/V5-2/Corded.htm


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## krandall

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> i THINK Diane is calling them Island Minidoodles... and if you google that you come up with somebody else...don't know if she researched that name or not!


The other people involved with the "Island Minidoodles" are Silk (or ex-Silk... I'm not sure) people too.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

krandall said:


> The other people involved with the "Island Minidoodles" are Silk (or ex-Silk... I'm not sure) people too.


Ahh, I see, there is a Mangrove Bay Island Minidoodle site also.


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## Suzi

Maybe I missed a post or two but the site says the Mangrove Bay Island Minidoodle is a mix of four different breeds. Does anyone know what they are? So the doodles are only 1/4 havanese. I almost baught a havanese mix iI even put money down on a really cute red Coton De Tulear and Havanese mix. I then found Maddie in the news paper the next day and had really loved their havanese. The breeder is years into getting them AKC.


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## marlowe'sgirl

Suzi said:


> Maybe I missed a post or two but the site says the Mangrove Bay Island Minidoodle is a mix of four different breeds. Does anyone know what they are?


I find it interesting that Mangrove Bay's Island Doodle's are a mix of four breeds and they don't mention any of them. Then, Bydands Island Minidoodles will clearly be a mix of a Havana Silk and a red Miniature poodle. I'd assume they're all working together to create their new breed. I'm curious what they're aiming for ultimately and what all different breeds will go into their final 'product'.


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## krandall

marlowe'sgirl said:


> I find it interesting that Mangrove Bay's Island Doodle's are a mix of four breeds and they don't mention any of them. Then, Bydands Island Minidoodles will clearly be a mix of a Havana Silk and a red Miniature poodle. I'd assume they're all working together to create their new breed. I'm curious what they're aiming for ultimately and what all different breeds will go into their final 'product'.


I don't know what the 4th breed is, but I have been told that there was some speculation that Hungarian bred Salemi Charly (who is in S-O-O-O-O many Havanese pedigrees, including Kodi's... He is Kodi's grandsire) was really a Bolonka. The funny thing is that for years, Diane fiercely denied that he was a Bolonka, and now, on her site, she is saying that Silks are a Havanese/Bolonka cross. I don't think the other Silk breeders see them that way.


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## Suzi

krandall said:


> I don't know what the 4th breed is, but I have been told that there was some speculation that Hungarian bred Salemi Charly (who is in S-O-O-O-O many Havanese pedigrees, including Kodi's... He is Kodi's grandsire) was really a Bolonka. The funny thing is that for years, Diane fiercely denied that he was a Bolonka, and now, on her site, she is saying that Silks are a Havanese/Bolonka cross. I don't think the other Silk breeders see them that way.


 Is their a DNA test for Havanese? Why is it such a mystery? If you think about it either we are on the verge of a major breakthrough of learning what todays Havanese true DNA make up is. The Silks are really no different then any other Havanese. I mean maybe along the way something changed and it probably needed too in order not to have so much inner breeding. I think the silks have ran into a dead end road trying to start a new breed it reminds me of the book Dr Suess Stars upon thars they were all really the same.


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## krandall

Suzi said:


> Is their a DNA test for Havanese? Why is it such a mystery? If you think about it either we are on the verge of a major breakthrough of learning what todays Havanese true DNA make up is. The Silks are really no different then any other Havanese. I mean maybe along the way something changed and it probably needed too in order not to have so much inner breeding. I think the silks have ran into a dead end road trying to start a new breed it reminds me of the book Dr Suess Stars upon thars they were all really the same.


I don't believe there is any specific test of Havanese. That's why the DNA tests to determine the supposed breeding of a mixed breed are wildly inaccurate if you are trying to determine whether a dog is part Havanese. They don't have Havanese in the data base. It is not a common enough breed. And Bolonki are much rarer than Havanese, so they sure aren't in the data base either.

At this point, you are correct, there is no genetic difference between Havanese and Silks. All Silks descend directly from Havanese stock, and at this point, only a very few are more than a generation or two from their Havanese registered foundation stock. It is possible that by keeping the two groups separate long enough, there will be enough genetic drift that you could consider them two separate breeds. But they aren't there yet. As I said before, I really with the Silk breeders the best, but they are at a bottleneck right now.

If you are talking about the Bolonka piece, that would not differentiate between Silks and Havanese. Salemi Charly pre-dates the Silk break-off by quite a bit, and there are MANY Havanese that are not Silks that also have him at least once (sometimes numerous times) in their pedigree. He was a very influential sire. Here's a link to the Havanese Gallery page of his offspring:

http://www.havanesegallery.hu/offspring_en.php?id=18125&s=1

But if you poke around on breeders' websites, both here and in Europe, you will see his name crop up again and again. So if you believe he was a Bolonka, there are an awful lot of Havanese with some Bolonka blood in their veins too.  All I can say is that Charly's photos look nothing like the photos I've seen of Bolonki.


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## The Laughing Magpie

For a long time I have heard the rumors about the Hava/lonka 'if' there is some Bolonka in the line they had to do much to breed out traits of the Bolonka or introducted Bolonka in only a few breedings as there are big differences here are some of the differences: Curly coat,round eye, off square, different gait,shorter back,diffrent tailset. I truely believe Bolonkas have terrier in their lines and I do see Shih Tzu and Lhasa. The differences go on.

Now sometimes there have been in many breeds a breeder who will introduce something else in the line for a certain purpose, a big one that comes to mind is color. Ofen other breeders will suspect, it use to be hard to prove (don't know today), rarely will another breeder call them on it, but, they know and will avoid breeding with those dogs and some in the old days would exclude that line in their breeding contracts.

For those of you who are new and wondering how the other breeders might suspect, I will use color because it is an easy one for me: Say many breeders are breeding a dog with a smaller gene pool and they want red and it is rare but they are getting mostly blacks or dull black brown and when they get a brown/red it often silvers out. Across town a breeder who has been breeding an different breed that has many things in common, suddenly has a liter with mostly reds and one black. Wow, all the breeders are impressed and thinking they may be on to something right. Down the road little things start showing different coat, slight different build, subtle things and this breeder keeps having these type litters and all their reds are not silvering. Breeding just does not happen that quickly and the Black is probably a dominant gene. Also the breeder would most probably not keep any from the first few liters for show.

This is only an example and I have kept it simple. These things happen, I truely believe those that love a breed will try to keep the line pure. There are alway people that think they are helping the breed by going a different way.


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## krandall

The Laughing Magpie said:


> For a long time I have heard the rumors about the Hava/lonka 'if' there is some Bolonka in the line they had to do much to breed out traits of the Bolonka or introducted Bolonka in only a few breedings as there are big differences here are some of the differences: Curly coat,round eye, off square, different gait,shorter back,diffrent tailset. I truely believe Bolonkas have terrier in their lines and I do see Shih Tzu and Lhasa. The differences go on.
> 
> Now sometimes there have been in many breeds a breeder who will introduce something else in the line for a certain purpose, a big one that comes to mind is color. Ofen other breeders will suspect, it use to be hard to prove (don't know today), rarely will another breeder call them on it, but, they know and will avoid breeding with those dogs and some in the old days would exclude that line in their breeding contracts.
> 
> For those of you who are new and wondering how the other breeders might suspect, I will use color because it is an easy one for me: Say many breeders are breeding a dog with a smaller gene pool and they want red and it is rare but they are getting mostly blacks or dull black brown and when they get a brown/red it often silvers out. Across town a breeder who has been breeding an different breed that has many things in common, suddenly has a liter with mostly reds and one black. Wow, all the breeders are impressed and thinking they may be on to something right. Down the road little things start showing different coat, slight different build, subtle things and this breeder keeps having these type litters and all their reds are not silvering. Breeding just does not happen that quickly and the Black is probably a dominant gene. Also the breeder would most probably not keep any from the first few liters for show.
> 
> This is only an example and I have kept it simple. These things happen, I truely believe those that love a breed will try to keep the line pure. There are alway people that think they are helping the breed by going a different way.


Well, neither Havanese people nor Silk people would have chosen Salemi Charly specifically based on his color as he was mostly black, just like many other Havs and Silks.:biggrin1: The pictures of him do show a tremendously shiny, silky coat, however, so I can see his attraction to the Silk people from that standpoint. But that seems very contrary to the Bolonka photos I've seen too (haven't had the pleasure of meeting one in person)... they look very fuzzy, if not curly.


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## The Laughing Magpie

I used color as an example not so much for Havanese but for an example, I agree probably not Charly for color. Bolonka coats are very different, they are meant to be curly.


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## krandall

The Laughing Magpie said:


> I used color as an example not so much for Havanese but for an example, I agree probably not Charly for color. Bolonka coats are very different, they are meant to be curly.


I know, I was kidding about that. But I don't see any advantage to "secretly" adding Bolonka to Havanese, and Charly certainly doesn't LOOK like a Bolonka.


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## The Laughing Magpie

I agree with you 100%.


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## HannahBearsMom

krandall said:


> I don't know what the 4th breed is, but I have been told that there was some speculation that Hungarian bred Salemi Charly (who is in S-O-O-O-O many Havanese pedigrees, including Kodi's... He is Kodi's grandsire) was really a Bolonka. The funny thing is that for years, Diane fiercely denied that he was a Bolonka, and now, on her site, she is saying that Silks are a Havanese/Bolonka cross. I don't think the other Silk breeders see them that way.


I think Maccabee inherited Charly's jet black, super shiny, silky coat. If i recall correctly, Charley is his grand shire on one side, and great-grand shire on the other.

Maccabee is AKC registered, but I think he would be double registered as a Silk if the Kings had not broken away from the group.

--Laurie


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## krandall

HannahBearsMom said:


> I think Maccabee inherited Charly's jet black, super shiny, silky coat. If i recall correctly, Charley is his grand shire on one side, and great-grand shire on the other.
> 
> Maccabee is AKC registered, but I think he would be double registered as a Silk if the Kings had not broken away from the group.
> 
> --Laurie


Kodi does too, (the shiny, silky part, not the all black, of course!) and certainly their sire, Posh inherited it!

Unless Maccabee was born before the end of July, he couldn't be registered as both Silk and Havanese. That was their cut-off for double registrations. But, of course, he still is exactly the same bloodlines.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

marlowe'sgirl said:


> I find it interesting that Mangrove Bay's Island Doodle's are a mix of four breeds and they don't mention any of them. Then, Bydands Island Minidoodles will clearly be a mix of a Havana Silk and a red Miniature poodle. I'd assume they're all working together to create their new breed. I'm curious what they're aiming for ultimately and what all different breeds will go into their final 'product'.


I just wonder why Diane would choose to call them ISLAND Minidoodles when you google that name and another breeder comes up who is using FOUR different breeds? If Diane is using just two, this does not make good business sense to me..
Just curious. I know a breeder of Brown Havanese who seems to have lots of curly coats, some people like them and other prefer a little less grooming with the silks...


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## sashamom

I am just curious have many of you read her book about Havanese? In her book she gives a history of the breed and seems to really know the history of the breed. Her book was one that I read prior to getting Sasha. It is unfortunate that, at least based on this thread, her reputation is being damaged by her decision. I often refer people that ask about the breed to her book, you can still get it on Amazon. L.


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## Miss Paige

I don't think anyone is trying to "damage" her reputation. I was around at the first split-and all that she is doing now is so very different from what she did and said at that time. I am afraid that by "mixing" two breeds you will end up with a lot of the wrong from both breeds-sure you will get good things but I don't see how you can not get some of the health problems that crop up from time to time in both breeds. I just feel it's wrong to deliberately mix breeds. But that is just my own personal opinion. 

My only regret is that she is using our beloved Havanese or Havana Silk dog in the mix. 

Pat


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

sashamom said:


> I am just curious have many of you read her book about Havanese? In her book she gives a history of the breed and seems to really know the history of the breed. Her book was one that I read prior to getting Sasha. It is unfortunate that, at least based on this thread, her reputation is being damaged by her decision. I often refer people that ask about the breed to her book, you can still get it on Amazon. L.


I think her book will not be damaged by anything she is doing with a different breed. If her book was good and helpful, it should remain so. She has changed directions. It is not a popular decision because people like to see the breeds remain as they are. Any change will bring about comments and criticism. People in general don't like change. Especially when it comes to something they feel is pretty good already..i.e., the Havanese, but there was upset over the Silks and now many of those breeders are going back to the Havanese registry I hear...(could be wrong here)...she may try out this new breed and love it, or change her mind again. I could breed my Lowchen to a poodle, but my love of the Lowchen breed would not allow me to do that!! We might not approve of what Diane is doing,but she does not need our approval. Obviously she sees reasons to make this "new breed"...it may be money, who knows. What is certain is that these "doodles and designer" breeds command a higher price than most pure bred AND there is no accounting for tastes..JMHO


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## Tom King

krandall said:


> I know, I was kidding about that. But I don't see any advantage to "secretly" adding Bolonka to Havanese, and Charly certainly doesn't LOOK like a Bolonka.


*Parts of my post below may not even apply to this thread. I was thinking about the Cuban dog thread when I wrote it, but anyway part of it is in answer to Karen's post #111. I have also copied and pasted it to the Cuban dog thread.*

I didn't read this thread up to this point, I just saw Karen's post and answered. I think maybe I should have posted this on the Cuban thread. I haven't kept up with any doodling. I'm going to copy and paste it onto the Cuban thread.

It never was a secret. Anja (Charly's breeder) told people Karila was Bolonka way back then. She'll still tell you that today. Bolonka means "lap dog" in the Slavic languages, just like Bichon in the Romance languages. Some countries' Registries (like Hungary) allowed "dogs of type" into their Havanees Registry, and then their Registry was accepted by AKC into theirs. Sort of like the way Cuban dogs came in through other countries like Canada.

Karila is one of the most beautiful Havanese there has been. She was definately a "dog of type"- possibly the closest to the Cuban dogs and the original Havanese Standard as there was up to that time. Before Charly, and I would guess through Karila, there was no such thing as length of neck or layback like the Cuban dogs have. Karila had a wonderful coat, and great pigment too. You may be able to see her picture on the Havanese Gallery. I may have spelled her name incorrectly-I'm not looking this up as I type it.

We first bred to Charly something like 12 years ago. He was the only one we could go to, to get what we were looking for. I wouldn't change a thing.

A lot of questions have been brought up in this thread, and I haven't really kept up with them.

The Silk dog folks were the ones who paid to have the DNA testing done. Some wanted to bring in some Cuban dogs, so their DNA had to be collected. At the time there was a genetic diverstiy study going on too. This was over 3 years ago, and without looking it up, this is by memory. The Cuban dogs only showed the possibilty of sharing 3 out of 78 chromosomes with the American Havanese.

There is indeed a genetic test to identify Havanese. The genetic diversity study showed that something like as few as 100 Havanese had a genetic diversity of over 4.7. Some purebreds show as little as 2.2. The most any other breed at the time had shown was 4.4.

Once they found out that the American Havanese really weren't related to the Cuban dogs, they asked to do the breed test on the Havanese DNA. It showed no relation to Bichon Friese, as some versions of history has stated, but there was shared DNA with several other breeds like Maltese, Cresteds, and even Dachshund. Turned out the Cuban dogs weren't related to any other breed. The testers stated that the Cuban dogs were probably a very old breed. Some others in the mix, but I just going by 3 year old memory here.

To look at just the facts, the total basis that we have to say that Havanese are descendants of Cuban dogs, is that one person told us so.

Regardless of how we got where we are, I'm very happy with the results. I stopped telling people our dogs originated in Cuba a good while back.

One thing we have found about breeding to the Cuban dogs, is that if you breed a curly carrier to one, you will end up with a really thick, bushy coat. Our experience shows that curly and drop coat combinations are not an either/or situation, but that even having one curly can modify the drop coat in various ways or not.

Some people say that DNA testing is not any good because their dog looks like a Bassett hound, and the test says there is Italian Greyhound in the mix. Very few of the genes determine what the dog will look like, and even fewer determine the size. Personally, we have 6 generations of DNA on record, and we can look at every chart and see how it goes down the line. The whole breed is only something like 12 generations deep, and I would expect that you could see the progression all the way back.

Perhaps even if there is not IG in the Bassett looking mix, they could still share an ancestor WAY back.

Others have said that researchers were looking at DNA and found out they didn't really know what they were looking at. This is a true statement, if you look at cancer research. Henrietta Laks cancer DNA was so prolific, that it took over other cancer cells in dishes through the air. This caused a few decades of useless research unless they found this out. That's a good book by the way.

The whole canine genome has been mapped for several years now. They know what is where. If you are looking for something specific in looks that there is not a test for, if you come up with a few hundred thousand dollars, someone would be able to find it. If someone wanted to come up with a skin color DNA test for humans, I don't think it would be much trouble at all if you are willing to spend the money to fund the study-otherwise, I don't think it's of much use and the reason there is not one available is that it hasn't been worth it to anyone to do it.

In spite of setbacks in DNA research during our lifetime so far, advances being made now are just astounding. It is not useless information.


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## The Laughing Magpie

Really confused me, so she said Bolonka meaning little lap dog....Tsvetnaya means colored. So she could have been meaning a small dog??? Today bolonkas can not have more then 20% white on their body.
http://www.havanesegallery.hu/show_dog_en.php?id=1689


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## Missy

Tom-- really interesting.

not to dilute the debate... but the video Clare posted of Budsey, the bordercollie, bishon, chinese crested mix on Britains Got Talent... may be the best argument for "doodling" with breeds. I just find this dog perfect.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Missy said:


> Tom-- really interesting.
> 
> not to dilute the debate... but the video Clare posted of Budsey, the bordercollie, bishon, chinese crested mix on Britains Got Talent... may be the best argument for "doodling" with breeds. I just find this dog perfect.
> 
> Ashleigh and Pudsey - Britain's Got Talent 2012 audition - UK version - YouTube


Is Pudsey about the size of a TT? Loved to watch them, thanks for sharing!!


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