# Comments opinions about a breeder?



## Jeffo

I welcome any feedback on Glamour Queen Havanese (http://gqhavanese.com/default.aspx). Many thanks!


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## Beamer

Looks like they do not do any sort of health testing or anything on the parents. (well they do not openly say they do anyhow) Looks to be like soem sort of 'hobby' breeder. Personally, I would pass.

Ryan


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## marjrc

Hello Jeffo, and welcome to the forum. 

I haven't a clue who these breeders are, but when looking for a healthy Havanese, there are quite a few questions you need to ask yourself and the breeders. Check here to learn more: http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=380

Here too: http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=6169

Hope these help. You can check out the Havanse Club of America website, http://www.havanese.org/education/puppy-buyers/60-puppy-buyers which can help as well.

If a breeder doesn't health test and post results at ofa.org, you have to wonder why. Having a vet check the puppies and parents out is all good, but it isn't an x-ray, blood test or eye test.


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## Scooter's Family

There are some other members in Washington, perhaps they can help you in your search. I agree with Ryan's above post.


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## pjewel

Jeff,

Those puppies are admittedly adorable. However, a few things seem a bit disturbing to me. One is the mention on the home page and elsewhere on the site that they are "in a loving home." It doesn't say "their" loving home, though they do mention that on one of the other pages. Just raises a red flag for me. The second thing is, I would bet they don't do the testing since they do mention the dogs are checked by their vet to make sure they're okay (or words to that effect) and nothing more about testing.


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## Janizona

Jeffo said:


> I welcome any feedback on Glamour Queen Havanese (http://gqhavanese.com/default.aspx). Many thanks!


Ahhh, several red flags for me.

1-UKC registered is not an AKC Havanese. It could be anything, mixed with anything.

2-One year health guarantee. Really? One whole whopping year? Ummm-no thanks.

3-The "about us" page list several people that work with/for GQ. If a breeder is breeding "small number of Havanese", you surely don't need anyone working in sales, answering calls or replying to emails for you. To me that says they have more that a SMALL number of Havanese.

4-health testing? No mention of it.

5-no pictures of their dogs that they own. Most breeders with a website proudly show off all their dogs.

I think there are much better options out there. JMO


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## good buddy

I second what Janet says! If it were me, I'd keep looking.


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## Jennifer Clevenger

Also, with UKC it may be that they bought a dog from a breeder with limited AKC papers and then registered the dog with UKC so that they could breed her. I don't know of any good breeders who breed "just for pets". We breed to get puppies as close to the standard as we possibly can and for that perfect show dog.


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## Dududududydud

is tigerlily havanese a good breeder?


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## Dududududydud

Can you guys please tell me if “Brandmar Kennels” is good breeder


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## krandall

Dududududydud said:


> Can you guys please tell me if “Brandmar Kennels” is good breeder


I don’t know her personally, but I know two of the breeders she works with, and I don’t think they WOULD work with her if she didn’t do all the right things.


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## Dududududydud

Are they still breeding because their website hasnt been updated


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## krandall

Dududududydud said:


> Are they still breeding because their website hasnt been updated


If they posted saying they were having litters in April 2021, that is pretty up to date...

I am not sure why you'd think people here would know more than by asking them directly...


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## Doggydude112

Hi, I’m thinking about purchasing a puppy from 2cute havanese. I have read over the website a couple of times and everything seems good but something keeps bugging me about it. Can you guys tell me if any of you have had any previous experience with them.


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## krandall

Doggydude112 said:


> Hi, I’m thinking about purchasing a puppy from 2cute havanese. I have read over the website a couple of times and everything seems good but something keeps bugging me about it. Can you guys tell me if any of you have had any previous experience with them.


Lot of red flags on the site... no health testing listed, non-refundable deposits, there are a couple of dogs that I would not consider puppies from. If you consider them, ask LOTS of questions.


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## Dududududydud

On the website, it had ofa health testing available. Is it enough or should i ask for more. And which dogs would you no consider buying from(I'm looking for a black and white havanese)


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## Dududududydud

Dududududydud said:


> On the website, it had ofa health testing available. Is it enough or should i ask for more. And which dogs would you no consider buying from(I'm looking for a black and white havanese)


For the 2cutehavanese


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## krandall

Dududududydud said:


> On the website, it had ofa health testing available. Is it enough or should i ask for more. And which dogs would you no consider buying from(I'm looking for a black and white havanese)


I didn’t see that. All I saw wa that they had copied and pasted the OFA logo onto their site. Not the same thing. Ask foreach parent’s CHIC number and lookup the testing YOURSELF!!!

color should be the last consideration when buying a Havanese, but fortunately, there are plenty of B&W Havanese around. (Although we seem to be being flooded with reds these days!) 

Blu and Ranger are the two I would not consider as parents of a puppy I was buying.

I have to wonder, however... You have asked about two breeders that I have told you are, as far as I know, good, reputable breeders. Why are you so interested in this questionable group? Is it based on their low price? Because that, alone, is a reason to pause.


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## 31818

Doggydude112 said:


> Hi, I’m thinking about purchasing a puppy from 2cute havanese. I have read over the website a couple of times and everything seems good but something keeps bugging me about it. Can you guys tell me if any of you have had any previous experience with them.





krandall said:


> I didn’t see that. All I saw wa that they had copied and pasted the OFA logo onto their site. Not the same thing. Ask foreach parent’s CHIC number and lookup the testing YOURSELF!!!
> 
> color should be the last consideration when buying a Havanese, but fortunately, there are plenty of B&W Havanese around. (Although we seem to be being flooded with reds these days!)
> 
> Blu and Ranger are the two I would not consider as parents of a puppy I was buying.
> 
> I have to wonder, however... You have asked about two breeders that I have told you are, as far as I know, good, reputable breeders. Why are you so interested in this questionable group? Is it based on their low price? Because that, alone, is a reason to pause.


This exchange piqued my interest so I checked out 2cute havanese website. I agree with @krandall , lots of red flags. I am not accusing anyone of anything but I have lots of questions about this website. There are a lot of scammers coming out of the woodwork as Havanese become more popular so it is better to be safe than sorry.

2cutehavanese appears to be a marketing site rather than a breeder. They claim to represent 4 breeders in the Dallas area. Sometimes this indicates "backyard breeders" which should be avoided at all costs.
I suspect the $300 nonrefundable deposit is really a finders fee for 2cutehavanese.
No where does it say that the pups have been health tested. The site just gives a list of health testing recommended by OFA.
2cutehavanese has an application form with the CHIC number for the sire of the litter already filled in. You mean all four of the breeders listed all use the same sire?
2cutehavanese lists no affiliation with the Havanese Club of America (HCA).
Why are there different prices from different breeders?
There is no mention how the pups will be delivered to new owners.
NEVER give a deposit unless you have seen the puppy
Healthy Havanese from reputable dealers are costing around $3000 at this time. Why are these 4 breeders selling there pups for $1500 to $2000 when there are more Havanese buyers than sellers right now?

@Doggydude112 you can spend your money however you wish but I would not be purchasing anything from 2cute Havanese.

*Instead of having to worry if you are being scammed out of your hard earned money: NEVER buy a puppy unless you can see it/pick it up in person. You should be able to see at least one parent and exactly what conditions the puppy was raised in.*
_*
There is another, more important reason than money though: when you buy a puppy sight unseen, sometimes you MAY actually get a puppy, but the puppy very often is from a puppy mill!
Ever see a puppy mill? If you haven't, go to YouTube and enter "puppy mill." If you love animals (and I assume you do) I guarantee that you will see some of the most sickening things you have ever seen in your life!

When you buy an animal online & have it shipped, you are taking a chance of: 1. Losing your money or, 2. Buying from a puppy mill, and 3. Getting a sickly, inferior pet (which at the very least will cost you vet bills OR might just die)4. Perpetuating the suffering of the dogs kept in puppy mills...because they are bred over and over and over again with no veterinary care (until they die) with minimal or low quality food, in the most unbelievably filthy, cramped conditions! Finally, Google "how to find a responsible breeder." Both AKC and the Humane Society have excellent information on how to do this.*_


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## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> This exchange piqued my interest so I checked out 2cute havanese website. I agree with @krandall , lots of red flags. I am not accusing anyone of anything but I have lots of questions about this website. There are a lot of scammers coming out of the woodwork as Havanese become more popular so it is better to be safe than sorry.
> 
> 2cutehavanese appears to be a marketing site rather than a breeder. They claim to represent 4 breeders in the Dallas area. Sometimes this indicates "backyard breeders" which should be avoided at all costs.
> I suspect the $300 nonrefundable deposit is really a finders fee for 2cutehavanese.
> No where does it say that the pups have been health tested. The site just gives a list of health testing recommended by OFA.
> 2cutehavanese has an application form with the CHIC number for the sire of the litter already filled in. You mean all four of the breeders listed all use the same sire?
> 2cutehavanese lists no affiliation with the Havanese Club of America (HCA).
> Why are there different prices from different breeders?
> There is no mention how the pups will be delivered to new owners.
> NEVER give a deposit unless you have seen the puppy
> Healthy Havanese from reputable dealers are costing around $3000 at this time. Why are these 4 breeders selling there pups for $1500 to $2000 when there are more Havanese buyers than sellers right now?
> 
> @Doggydude112 you can spend your money however you wish but I would not be purchasing anything from 2cute Havanese.
> 
> *Instead of having to worry if you are being scammed out of your hard earned money: NEVER buy a puppy unless you can see it/pick it up in person. You should be able to see at least one parent and exactly what conditions the puppy was raised in.*
> 
> _*There is another, more important reason than money though: when you buy a puppy sight unseen, sometimes you MAY actually get a puppy, but the puppy very often is from a puppy mill!
> Ever see a puppy mill? If you haven't, go to YouTube and enter "puppy mill." If you love animals (and I assume you do) I guarantee that you will see some of the most sickening things you have ever seen in your life!
> 
> When you buy an animal online & have it shipped, you are taking a chance of: 1. Losing your money or, 2. Buying from a puppy mill, and 3. Getting a sickly, inferior pet (which at the very least will cost you vet bills OR might just die)4. Perpetuating the suffering of the dogs kept in puppy mills...because they are bred over and over and over again with no veterinary care (until they die) with minimal or low quality food, in the most unbelievably filthy, cramped conditions! Finally, Google "how to find a responsible breeder." Both AKC and the Humane Society have excellent information on how to do this.*_


Not ALL of these things are necessary. Not all breeders are members of (or want to be members of) HCA. I know a number of excellent breeders who do all the right things and are not HCA members.

I’ve also seen more than one “group of breeders who share a website, though I’ve never seen a group that share a payment system like this. I’d want to understand that better, and what my recourse was if things went wrong. (And there may be a contract there somewhere, but I didn’t dig deep enough to find it... and it is not expected that it would be on the website)

Methods of delivery or not usually discussed on websites UNLESS it is one that offers shipping, so while worth discussing, for sure, I would not hold that against them until you discuss it.

I would not tell people not to put a deposit down before they have seen the puppy, or they might never get a puppy! Especially during Covid! I have made my feelings well known about non-refundable deposits. i would NEVER give a non-refundable deposit. Period. Tom King has said that he doubts they are legal in most states. But to say that people should see the puppy first? IMO, a GOOD breeder will not know which puppy will go to you until the 8th week or there abouts. They most likely, will be firming up their puppy list several weeks earlier than this, and that is when it is customary to ask for a good faith deposit, to say, “Yes, I am willing and ready to take a puppy from this litter.” If not, the breeder is going to go on and offer that puppy to the next person on their list. If you are not willing to put a deposit down at this time, you, most likely, will lose out on a puppy from that litter. You probably will NOT have seen the puppies yet (other than photos, because they are too young for visitors, even if it weren’t for Covid. AND, the breeder, if she is a good one, will not have made any decision on which puppy is going to which person. And won’t for several more weeks.

I guess I missed a CHIC number for any sire. Didn’t see that at all. I did notice one stud was being shared between two households.

If I were to GUESS, It seems to me that this is a group of women who work together with their dogs and share resources. We have a group of breeders here in New England who work (loosely and unofficially) too, and you will often see those overlaps. For instance, He.be siring both Fezzik, for Fivefields, and my litter for High Jump. And the Sire of the Arborway litter currently on the ground (and all spoken for, don’t ask) is sired by and has the same sire as a recent sire from Narwyn Havanese in RI. We are all friends, visit each other, respect each other, root for each other in the show ring... we do not, however, share a website or have a “business relationship” (beyond sharing genetic material). And this sharing of genetic material goes farther... An Arborway dog is a producing bitch at Starborn, and a lovely young lady recenty made her way BACK to Arborway, from Starborn, the grand daughter of the retired stud dog at Arborway... who is ALSO the grandsire of Panda’s litter, and He.be’s daddy. if you start looking at pedigrees, a LOT of Havanese are connected. 

So the fact that these women WORK together doesn’t bother me. And nothing here screams “puppy mill” or “broker”. OTHER things concern me about the quality of the breeding program, though. 

As I said in my response to this poster before, he ask abou to very reputable breeders previously and now seems more interested in this very questionable group... which I just don’t understand at all.


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## 31818

I drove about 1000 miles over two days before reviewing, interacting, and paying for RICKY. I was prepared to write the trip off as a vacation if I wasn't happy with the match. Fortunately, RICKY and we were ecstatic with the match. No deposit was ever required, no promises were made.

Personally, I would never put a nonrefundable deposit on a Havanese until I had physically seen the dog. I don't mind putting down a refundable good faith deposit until I can see the dog, and perhaps that is what you are saying but it is not clear to me. Recently @Tom King related that a client arrived to pick up their puppy. It was obvious to Tom it was not a good match when the prospectives met. Apparently the puppy wasn't happy with the match and the new owners weren't happy with the match. That particular pup found a good home with another person shortly thereafter.

I guess we are going to agree to disagree on this point.


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## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I drove about 1000 miles over two days before reviewing, interacting, and paying for RICKY. I was prepared to write the trip off as a vacation if I wasn't happy with the match. Fortunately, RICKY and we were ecstatic with the match. No deposit was ever required.
> 
> Personally, I would never put a nonrefundable deposit on a Havanese until I had physically seen the dog. I don't mind putting down a refundable good faith deposit until I can see the dog. Recently @Tom King related that a client arrived to pick up their puppy. It was obvious to Tom it was not a good match when the prospectives met. Apparently the puppy wasn't happy with the match and the new owners weren't happy with the match. That particular pup found a good home with another person shortly after.
> 
> I guess we are going to agree to disagree on this point.





Ricky Ricardo said:


> I drove about 1000 miles over two days before reviewing, interacting, and paying for RICKY. I was prepared to write the trip off as a vacation if I wasn't happy with the match. Fortunately, RICKY and we were ecstatic with the match. No deposit was ever required.
> 
> Personally, I would never put a nonrefundable deposit on a Havanese until I had physically seen the dog. I don't mind putting down a refundable good faith deposit until I can see the dog. Recently @Tom King related that a client arrived to pick up their puppy. It was obvious to Tom it was not a good match when the prospectives met. Apparently the puppy wasn't happy with the match and the new owners weren't happy with the match. That particular pup found a good home with another person shortly after.
> 
> I guess we are going to agree to disagree on this point.


I don’t think we are disagreeing in essence. I have also and MANY times said that I would immediately walk away from ANY breeder who asked for a non-refundable deposit. And that would INCLUDE a situation where I had seen the puppy. What would happen if an accident happened to that puppy between me seeing that puppy and delivery? Conversely? What about, heaven forbid, if their was a tragedy in MY immediate family in that period of time. I would HOPE there would be some understanding on both sides. I think non-refundable deposits are wrong unless the person defaults with no reason. Even then, from my perspective, I THINK I’d probably give it back, just to have the person out of my life! LOL!
But as a breeder, I want a deposit to mean that the person is serious about their commitment to me holding one of my puppies for them, as opposed to contacting someone else on the waiting list that you KNOW is also dying for a puppy. And also in fairness to the puppy, that that puppy isn’t staying with me for extra, critical time when he or she SHOULD be with his or her new family, acclimating and socializing to their particular life circumstances. That is another thing that is quite different when tou are talking about an 8 or 9 month old puppy who has been out on the show circuit as opposed to a 10-12 week old puppy that is still in his or her critical 16 weeks for socialization. We now know that this window is a “sensitive period”... it doesn’t snap shut like a door. But it is still BITALLY important, and one that no one who cares about that puppy wants to see lost.

Your situation with Ricky, (and I am SO glad that it worked out so well for you!) was NOT a typical one of buying a young puppy directly from its litter at the breeder’s house. There were SO many differences it really cannot be compared. Honestly, I’ve never heard of a deposit being required in your situation. You and the seller meet, you decide if it will work for both parties and the transaction takes place. From what I understand, the person you bought Ricky from was not his original breeder, but someone who had bought him as a breeding prospect. So it was a very different kind of transaction. (Although one that other people should keep their eye out for, because it can be a good way to get a dynamite dog through a different channel!)

And as you know, I am no stranger to traveling long distances to buy my dogs from the “right” breeder. I am a STRONG believer in picking the right breeder and waiting for the right puppy if you can! (I recognize that that might not be possible right now!)


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## Doggydude112

I agree with you guys, the price seemed really odd and we decided to avoid it. We are interested in tiger Lilly Havanese but I was wondering if they give any health guarantee. I sent them an email about it 2 weeks ago but still haven’t gotten a response. So if any one has purchased a puppy from them before, would love to know if they gave it.


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## krandall

Doggydude112 said:


> I agree with you guys, the price seemed really odd and we decided to avoid it. We are interested in tiger Lilly Havanese but I was wondering if they give any health guarantee. I sent them an email about it 2 weeks ago but still haven’t gotten a response. So if any one has purchased a puppy from them before, would love to know if they gave it.


This would be in the contract. You need to talk to the breeder.


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## 31818

Doggydude112 said:


> I agree with you guys, the price seemed really odd and we decided to avoid it. We are interested in tiger Lilly Havanese but I was wondering if they give any health guarantee. I sent them an email about it 2 weeks ago but still haven’t gotten a response. So if any one has purchased a puppy from them before, would love to know if they gave it.


Although RICKY was bred at Tigerlily, we did NOT purchase him from them but I feel certain they offer a health guarantee if purchasing direct from them. RICKY was sold to another breeder at around 10/12 weeks old to expand the other breeders producing stock. That other breeder who lives in Washington State sold RICKY to me at 9 months with a requirement he had to be neutered and (I learned later) no enforceable health guarantee. Fortunately this arrangement eventually turned out fine for both RICKY and me in the long run, but it is not something I would recommend to others. The last telephone number I have for Carol at Tigerlily Havanese is: 214-762-0585


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## tessy

krandall said:


> Lot of red flags on the site... no health testing listed, non-refundable deposits, there are a couple of dogs that I would not consider puppies from. If you consider them, ask LOTS of questions.


Totally agree. I got an email back from them that my deadline was midnight that day to get back to send them a deposit. No pictures, no discussion... that was literally the reply. I think this particular breeder/family got their dogs from Noblegold and Jana's Hope (I can't find much info about Cindy S. Race - Jana's Hope - MyHavanesePuppy.com - Havanese Puppies For Sale - Born on 02/02/2021). I notice that the 2cute breeder Lola does show their dogs.


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