# Feeding Raw without feeding raw...



## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

I noticed this new raw food which is in dehydrated form. It's gotten some good reviews. Thought I'd post a link to it. Might be good for those that want to feed raw without actually feeding raw meat.

*The Honest Kitchen*
http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/index.shtml


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## PattyNJ (Sep 19, 2007)

Very interesting Daniel. I visited the site and the information is great. They even have recipes that my dog may like. I just bought a bag of raw food for the first time, this past weekend and it kinda grossed me out, but my dog LOVED it. She LOVES meat. Give her fruit, she spits it out, vegetables - spits it out, a milk bone - spits it out. Give her meat and she sucks it up like a vacuum!!! 

I'll definitely check this out further and maybe give it a try.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Daniel,
Have you actually seen this for sale in Toronto? Looks interesting, but I doubt Beamer would give up his raw meat.. lol

Ryan


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

DanielBMe said:


> I noticed this new raw food which is in dehydrated form. It's gotten some good reviews. Thought I'd post a link to it. Might be good for those that want to feed raw without actually feeding raw meat.
> 
> *The Honest Kitchen*
> http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/index.shtml


I just tried the veggie only packet and my dogs ran to the hills! LOLOL I even added lot's of chicken and they all thought I was nuts to offer them this green yuk!!

I will say I was impressed with the ingredients though and I am sure it is a good food. Mine just didn't go for it.1


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Hey Ryan, the place in Whitby where I buy my raw supplies carries the brand there. It looked interesting so I checked it out. To be honest, I'm only using my own made stuff and a mix of Carnivore. Out of all the premade raw, I like Carnivore best. I just wish they made them in smaller patties other than 8oz.

I'm finding it harder to make my guys stuff now that the weather is nicer. I find it hard to spend a whole Saturday making their food to save cash, even it it saves me quite a bit. I figure I might buy the Carnivore Chicken and Beef and get ground lamb from my supplier. She sells a 10lb pack of ground lamb for something like $3lb.


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

I got some samples for my guys and none of them would touch it!!!!


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Not sure how much veggies you added, but typically veggies should only make up approx 10-15% of the meal. So if you are feeding 3oz of meat, you should mix in approx 0.45oz of veggie. They wouldn't even taste the veggies. Keep in mind you would also need to mix in offal once or twice a week.

Just noticed they have a mini sampler that is 1oz and is good for 1lb of food, which would be 10%.



Kathy said:


> I just tried the veggie only packet and my dogs ran to the hills! LOLOL I even added lot's of chicken and they all thought I was nuts to offer them this green yuk!!
> 
> I will say I was impressed with the ingredients though and I am sure it is a good food. Mine just didn't go for it.1


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

I've never tried it. When you add the water does it just make a thick mush? That would be kinda gross. Nothing for the dog to chew either. But I guess if you have a dog with a very sensitive stomach it might be good.



juliav said:


> I got some samples for my guys and none of them would touch it!!!!


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

Daniel, is Carnivore only available in Canada? I can get NV locally in Michigan, but I'm not sure about some of the others. I'm not sure the carrots and blueberries and some of the carbs that are in these pre-made foods are good for them based on what I've been reading lately, but I don't see myself finding time to make my own mix. With just one Hav, if I can find a good pre-made, I think the extra cash will be worth the time-saving factor. I'm getting rid of my land line which will save me 65 bucks a month, so that will help!

My yorkie went from kibble to raw overnight at age 4 when I first learned about it. She had never had anything approximating fresh, raw food, but it's like she knew it was "right." So I can see why some of the dogs are turning their noses up at the dehydrated stuff.


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

DanielBMe said:


> I've never tried it. When you add the water does it just make a thick mush? That would be kinda gross. Nothing for the dog to chew either. But I guess if you have a dog with a very sensitive stomach it might be good.


It makes a thick mush and my guys thought it was gross!!! I tried it mixed in with kibble, I tried it on its own....nope. My guys were having none of it.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

I do believe Carnivore is only available in Canada. But you could check their website to find out for sure.

http://www.urbancarnivore.com/



Petaluna said:


> Daniel, is Carnivore only available in Canada? I can get NV locally in Michigan, but I'm not sure about some of the others. I'm not sure the carrots and blueberries and some of the carbs that are in these pre-made foods are good for them based on what I've been reading lately, but I don't see myself finding time to make my own mix. With just one Hav, if I can find a good pre-made, I think the extra cash will be worth the time-saving factor. I'm getting rid of my land line which will save me 65 bucks a month, so that will help!
> 
> My yorkie went from kibble to raw overnight at age 4 when I first learned about it. She had never had anything approximating fresh, raw food, but it's like she knew it was "right." So I can see why some of the dogs are turning their noses up at the dehydrated stuff.


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

Thanks Daniel. It looks great, but unfortunately they don't ship their frozen products and there is no re-seller even in Windsor near the Detroit border (though I really don't see myself parked in line and sneaking raw food back into the U.S. for my dog...I'm sure I'll love her like crazy but not that much). 

I am sorta surprised I haven't found something comparable I can buy here, seems like most of the frozen raw foods have lots of other stuff added. I wonder if I could find a local butcher who would grind whole carcasses for me. Yuuukkkk...... Really - eyeballs and poop and everything?


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Poop? LOL there's definitely no poop. It's just the carcass, obviously certain things are taken out.


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

ha ha! THanks. I just thought "whole carcass" meant everything, like road kill. Can you tell you are talking to a quasi-vegetarian who has never cooked anything more complicated than ground turkey or a nice clean fish fillet. Even that is hard, so you know, feeding raw has a yuk factor for me. I cannot imagine cracking and shoving whole chickens into a grinder...ugh. Good way to go on a diet, I'd have no appetite.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

I'v been scouring the net to find reviews of The Honest Kitchen products. I have to say, it's gotten great reviews across the board. I'll stick to my own raw recipe and Carnivore but it might be good to keep a supply of this for those rare instances where you need something quick. Sometimes I forget to defrost my guys food overnight and have to do a quick thaw in a plastic bag and cool water. but it still takes about an hour or two.

If you feed this you will definitly need to mix in some RMB's or brush your dogs teeth more frequently.


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## PepperToast (Oct 27, 2008)

Thanks for this link Daniel,

I have been searching and searching for a food to put in my earthquake kit that is not kibble. I think that in a pinch this will be more than OK.

Meeka


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## Sandi Kerger (Mar 18, 2009)

Hi am a new member and am so glad to see there is a forum for Havanese lovers.

Does anyone know how to get my puppy to eat a raw bone. I give it to her and she just walks around with the bone, whining and then tries to bury it - it seems to cause her much stress. It is very funny, but I am worrying that she is not eating bones, as I am feeding raw.

Thanks.

Sandi


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

What kind of bone are you feeding her? If you have a puppy I wouldn't really feed anything other than a chicken neck for now. 

If you feed her a chicken neck, simply hold on to it while she has it in her mouth. She will probably start chewing on it.


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## Sandi Kerger (Mar 18, 2009)

Thanks so much for replying. She is 9 months old now, and I am going to try a chicken neck. Are chicken wings okay? and Backs?

I am a rookie when it comes to Havanese, and am worried that we may not be feeding her properly on a Raw diet. I am feeding her the patties, but she hates the chicken ones, she only likes beef and bison. Is it okay if she doesn't eat any of the chicken ones.

What is the porportion of veggies that I should be putting in her food.

Thanks for all of the help.

Sandi


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

Sandi, I'm getting my Hav in early May, and I am also planning on feeding raw, though I am still researching and haven't completely decided on a plan. I am reading Diane Klumb's "The Havanese" right now, and she makes an evolutionary argument that domestic dogs were bred and selected based on which ones survived best on leftover human food, something like that. I'm not sure I agree with all her statements, at one point she says about kibble "It's not a particularly natural food, which some owners have a problem with, but they need to understand that neither is the dog a natural animal, he is a man-made, "designer species," and he requires a man-made, "designer food" to meet his specific nutritional requirements." Maybe Daniel or some of the other raw feeders can chime in and comment on that statement because it doesn't sit quite right with me, I'm not sure it's scientifically logical, but I am certainly no expert. 

I am sort of a follower of a primal or paleo diet (for humans), the idea being that processed food and things like grain farming and regular consumption of grains only started to occur about 10,000 yrs. ago out of survival necessity, which is supposedly not a long enough period of time for human digestive system to adapt. Apparently the idea being that we can survive on it, but not necessarily thrive. I honestly don't know what's true about all that, just that I feel better off grains, so I stick to meats, veggies, fruits and nuts for myself. If the theory is correct that evolution takes a lot longer than a few thousand years for an animal to thrive on a cooked and processed diet, then maybe even our cute little purebreds who look nothing like wolves and wild dogs still need what their very wild ancestors ate in order to thrive. It does seem like getting the nutrient balance right is critically important when feeding raw, and I know I did a lot of things wrong when I fed my yorkie "raw" - I'm quite sure that the calcium/phosphorus ratio was off, and she wasn't getting a "whole carcass" type of diet, no offal, organ meats, bones, and I was feeding some soaked and well cooked rice or millet, which is actually not part of the raw protocol. Nevertheless, her hot spots cleared up and never returned, and she never got cancer, diabetes, weird tumors or anything serious, rarely had any stomach upset or digestive problems, and appeared pretty healthy until about age 13 or 14 when things took a turn with her kidneys. I'll never know whether that diet helped her live longer and better, or if she'd have lived to 18 or more on a good kibble or canned. 

As to the patties, I think the idea is that they are supposed to be already nutritionally complete, though because the dogs don't have to work at them to chew them apart like they would their "prey," the teeth don't get cleaned, and their digestive juices don't have time to get going when they just inhale their bowl of food, so it might be worth considering adding a digestive enzyme or somehow slowing them down. And like Daniel said, adding bones - though in that case if the patties already have ground bone, adding extra bones might be tricky. With the veggies, I've read they aren't built to digest raw veggies, so they either have to be blended to a pulp if raw, or steamed. I would occasionally give my yorkie vegetable juice separately or with her food when I would make it for myself. I do think it's probably important to rotate the foods for variety and to avoid her developing an allergy by eating the same thing all the time. Have you tried offering the chicken, letting her refuse, then trying again at dinner to see if she is hungry enough to eat it then? I think it is probably harder on the human when the dog takes a day or two food protest strike, but I suspect they give in when hungry enough. I have not had to deal with a picky eater yet, so it remains to be seen how I'll handle it!


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

If you don't want to feed chicken that's not a problem. I'm not sure what raw food you are feeding so it's hard to say what you need. Most raw packaged food already contains veggies, bone meal, and offal. If you are feeding Natures Variety then it does include everything already.

You could still feed maybe 2 or 3 chicken necks in place of a meal 2 or 3 times a week. That's what I do. I found chicken backs to be a bit big for my guys but many people feed them so it's all up to what you feel comfortable with. I now many people feed chicken wings but I don't. I have they have can have some sharp edges. Chicken drumsticks are fine as well.

To get an idea of what I do you can read my recipe for raw http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=4799


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## Sandi Kerger (Mar 18, 2009)

Thanks so much for the info. I am feeding her Natural Chow, which are meat patties, chicken, beef, or bison you can get. I am not sure if you can get Natural Chow in the States, I am from Western Canada. Anyway, today I went to Pet Planet - don't know if you have those in the States or not - and bought some more beef patties, as she likes beef and bison the best. I also bought some chicken backs (they didn't have any necks - which I would have preferred). They also told me to use fish oil ( I bought some) and apple cider vinegar (which they said is good for tears tains). Is this correct? 

They also have some dehydrated veggies there, which the owner said she sprinkled on top of her patties - would that be enough?

I have a friend that has a Golden Retriever and a Burmese (is that right) Mountain Dog. Anyway, she was not feeding raw, and her golden retriever developed tumors. The regular vets said to give him chemo for crying out loud. Anyway, long and short of this, is she want to a holistic vet, and the vet said to try a raw diet. Tumors have all disappeared and she said he is behaving like a puppy again. Now isn't that something?

This forum is just the greatest place for information. 

Sandi


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## Sandi Kerger (Mar 18, 2009)

I am going to try the chicken thing again and keep giving it to her, as I have been told (don't know if it is right or not) that if you are feeding raw, that puppies should get a lot of chicken?

I tell you, I have had dogs before, but Havanese are the best. She is so smart, lively, just a joy to have around, so I sure want to get the feeding part right, because both my husband and I are absolutely nuts about this little girl. 

Sandi


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

Hi Sandi, that is very good to hear about the retriever, and gives me hope that a raw diet is indeed a good choice. That is not the first time I've heard about dogs recovering from serious illness when switching to raw, but then I don't know what quality of food they were on in the first place. The thing lacking in processed, pasturized foods is enzymes, which are important for all of us. 

I keep reading mixed things about fish oils, even cod liver oil which I take myself - in the sense that once it is processed and bottled it goes "rancid" very quickly and becomes a not so healthy product. What I read most recently is that it's important to take vitamin E or get similar antioxidants in the diet to offset taking the "oxidized" oil. That was the recommendation for humans. Like any supplement or refined product, it's a substitute for getting fish fat in the diet as it would naturally occur - that is by eating fish. I did read somewhere recently that you shouldn't feed raw salmon to dogs because of a particular parasite, so I think in the case of feeding fish I would poach it first because I'm not even sure freezing kills absolutely everything. 

The other thing to consider with fish (even the oils) is mercury content - I try to only eat wild, deepwater ocean fish, but even then, some salmon fisheries I've read are allowed to label their products "wild" because they are out in the ocean, but still confined. The confined fish typically have more disease and parasites, and are usually more contaminated. Fish lower on the food chain like sardines usually have less mercury contamination. I've been using Carlson's brand cod liver oil (they also have fish oil) because on Dr. Mercola's website he says he has researched it and that their oils test well below the "accepted" levels of mercury.

I am in the states, and I know I can't get some of the foods I've seen recommended here by Canadians. A few other raw feeders on this forum like the Nature's Variety "medallions" , and I assumed the "patties" you were feeding were something similar - where the veggies and sometimes fruits and herbs were included, but it sounds like maybe they are just ground meat? 

I love this forum too and very glad I found it. I don't know if I would have had the courage to go for it with a new Havanese puppy were it not for the help and encouragement I've found here.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Puppies don't need chicken any more than any other meat. What they do need is much much more calcium.

From looking at Natural Chow it's very similiar to Urban Carnivore. It appears to be the animal carcus and included ground bone. It would also include some vegetable matter from the stomach of the carcass. So really you don't need to really add anything else.

What I do would is give Natural Chow for breakfast every day, then maybe 2 or 3 times a week give either the chicken necks or chicken back as dinner. I might also add some pulped vegetable matter maybe once or twice a week to the meat. If you have a food processor you can make your own. Just get two heads of romain lettuce, 2 heads of leaf lettue, a head of bok choy, some celery, 1 apple, pint of blueberries. Just run them through the food processor and bag into small freezer bags and freeze. Take them out as you need them. You could also use the Urban Carnivore vegetable patties.


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## Sandi Kerger (Mar 18, 2009)

Thank you Daniel that makes me feel better. I won't worry about the chicken as much, cause she turns her nose up at it. I will get those veggies, freeze them and use them that way.

Is fish oil okay to put in the food? What about apple cider vinegar ? That is what I was told at Pet Planet to put in the food. The gal at Pet Planet says that the cider vinegar helps the tearing? Is that right?

Thanks.


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## rdanielle (Sep 2, 2008)

All 5 of my dogs love this stuff and so does my brother's super finicky Hav! I use it in place of a topper. I even bought the 10 lb box back in November and am now finally making a dent in it! Theres a bit of sticker shock at first but when you use it as a topper its more affordable than those gravies in the bottles not to mention better for them. I use the Thrive formula with success. I have yet to try any others. I just got a travel size of Preference that I want to try putting into my senior Hav's diet as its is completely grain free...

For you that haven't had success you might try adding a bit of tripe in it! When I used to use fish oils on my Havs I used to grind up their food so that it'd sop it up instead of their beards sopping it up. This stuff does a good job at that.


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## judith (Dec 15, 2006)

daniel, how much NV a day does a havanese eat? thanks, judy


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

ACV is good. I use it sparingly. When I make my batches of raw, I might sprinkle some ACV in one or two batches. My guys don't suffer from tear stains so I really don't know how well AVC works for that. If you do a search on the forum for tear stains I'm sure you'll find a whole lot of threads. Regardless you can mix it in but it's probably not necessary to mix it in every single meal. Maybe try 3 times a week. 

As to the fish oil, I mix it in every batch I make. I just use the Cold Water Fish Oil from Healthy Paws. There are so many brands or types of fish oil who knows what's best. You may want to google fish oil and AVC for dogs and see what comes up. I'm sure you'll find tons of stuff. In the end you have to do what you feel comfortable with.


As to how many medallions of NV, well that depends on the age, weight and activity level of your Hav. Puppies require about 5-6% of body weight and adults 2-3%. I have 2 Havs who are very active, so they get about 6-7oz of food a day. As long as I can feel their ribs when gently pressing, I know they are not being over fed.

My guys get some fresh tripe every couple of weeks with a meal. They love it! If you haven't tried, be warned, it stinks to high heaven! Way worse than blue cheese!


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Sandi Kerger said:


> Thank you Daniel that makes me feel better. I won't worry about the chicken as much, cause she turns her nose up at it. I will get those veggies, freeze them and use them that way.
> 
> Is fish oil okay to put in the food? What about apple cider vinegar ? That is what I was told at Pet Planet to put in the food. The gal at Pet Planet says that the cider vinegar helps the tearing? Is that right?
> 
> Thanks.


Just remember, you probably don't want to add more than a tablespoon spoon of the pulped veggies to the meal.


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