# Kodi's scent articles 11/11/15



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Thought you folks might enjoy seeing how Kodi is coming along with his scent articles. He's really "got" the idea that he needs to bring back "my" article. We've had some trouble with him getting over-excited about the whole "game" and just running out to grab the first article he came across. We started putting a cookie or two in the search area to slow him down and get him to engage his brain. GREAT success with that!

Watch the second send... Pretty funny. He brought it back, then dropped it. When I waited for him to pick it back up, somehow, in his little doggy brain, he thought he needed to take it back out to the pile and bring it ALL the way in again. It's SO much fun to watch them learn to THINK things through in Utility. ...No more "learning exercises by rote"... Too many things can go sideways, and they have to figure out how to make it happen anyway!:


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## Karen Collins (Mar 21, 2013)

Kodi is remarkable! Of course, you can be proud of yourself too for working with him so well! I didn't understand why you waited a few moments before praising him on his return. It seemed like you were wanting another behavior?


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Karen Collins said:


> I didn't understand why you waited a few moments before praising him on his return. It seemed like you were wanting another behavior?


I can't speak for Karen, but I don't give praise until the judge says, "exercise finished." Usually that means that on a recall, the dog has to sit square in front of me and then tell him to "finish" which means walking past my right side, behind me, and then sitting on my left side. And then the judge says "exercise finished." Lavish praise and petting follows. On a scent retrieve, I'm not sure yet how that works.

Ricky's Popi


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Very good Kodi! I swear Willow must by part scent hound. She really has a nose. Is that typical of Havanese? And Karen, when I was watching the video, I could hear a squawking sound that sounded to me like a parrot or something. Was there a bird there?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Karen Collins said:


> Kodi is remarkable! Of course, you can be proud of yourself too for working with him so well! I didn't understand why you waited a few moments before praising him on his return. It seemed like you were wanting another behavior?


Well, it depends on which rep you're talking about. In the VERY beginning of scent article work, you reward the dog for just indicating the right article, either with their nose or their paw. Then you reward them for bringing it to you, whether they deliver it to hand or not. At the level Kodi is working, he understands that he needs to hold it until the "judge" says "Take it!", and I reach to take it from his mouth. It's his responsibilit to not let it hit the floor. He knows that piece, solid, from dumbbell work (Open level) but with the added excitement of the newer (Utility level) scent work, he sometimes gets a little sloppy in his excitement over getting to do another rep. 

Also, it's a "little dog thing" to want to "front" a little too far away, especially on a retrieve. This is understandable, since a human looming over them as they bend down to take the item can look pretty intimidating to a small breed dog. If you let this continue, the distance gets larger and larger, until you can no longer reach the item without moving your feet, which would be an NQ. So when you see me step back when he doesn't come close enough, I'm actually relieving some pressure and encouraging him to come in closer on the front. (Which he does nicely)

On the last rep, when he dropped the article, I think my instructor just didn't want me to make an issue of it, because he'd been doing such excellent work on the main part of the exercise, which was to actually find the correct article. He did that on every single rep. 

Finally, sometimes, especially as the dogs get into Utility, but even at Open level, you have to let the dog think and figure things out on their own. If you keep giving them input, they get uncertain, and alway look to you for help, when you can't GIVE them any in competition. So sometimes, as long as you know that the dog HAS the answer, the very best thing you can do for them is absolutely nothing. let THEM figure it out, then amke a HUGE big deal about how smart they are when they get it right.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> Very good Kodi! I swear Willow must by part scent hound. She really has a nose. Is that typical of Havanese? And Karen, when I was watching the video, I could hear a squawking sound that sounded to me like a parrot or something. Was there a bird there?


Havanese aren't even close to the top of "scent hound" capabilities. However, all dogs enjoy using their noses! That's why nose work is the fastest growing dog sport in the country!  There is a Boston Terrier in our class who is so funny. They have about the worst nose configuration a dog can have. That little guy goes out to his articles, has to put his flat little nose DOWN on every single article to check it, and he STILL hardly ever makes a mistake! 

The strange noises in the back are just a dog in a crate who doesn't have very good crate manners. There are two classes going on at the same time in adjacent rings, so there are a lot of crated dogs waiting their turns. No parrots!


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> The strange noises in the back are just a dog in a crate who doesn't have very good crate manners. There are two classes going on at the same time in adjacent rings, so there are a lot of crated dogs waiting their turns. No parrots!


I thought maybe it was Pixie Pixel in a crate protesting that she wasn't in the ring having fun too! I am familiar with that high pitched YIP. I hear it whenever Ricky feels he is not being treated fairly, like when I have him in a "sit stay" and I go over and play a minute with his girlfriend Lucy, within his sight. He doesn't move but he lets me know how unhappy he is! With other dogs, he just sits quietly.

Karen, your dogs are always so beautifully groomed when in the ring. I know you must brush them out before hand, but do you bath them too the morning of the event?

Ricky's Popi


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## Laurmann2000 (Sep 12, 2015)

Oh how fun that was to watch. Kodi is just amazing and as cute as can be. Thanks so much for sharing this.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I thought maybe it was Pixie Pixel in a crate protesting that she wasn't in the ring having fun too!


No, Pixel isn't allowed to act that way. 



Ricky Ricardo said:


> Karen, your dogs are always so beautifully groomed when in the ring. I know you must brush them out before hand, but do you bath them too the morning of the event?
> Ricky's Popi


Ha! ound: They haven't had a bath since before I got back from India, so over 2 weeks ago. But because Kodi has a trial this Sunday, I didn't want to give him a bath Tues., and have him get filthy in the rain we are having all this week. So I'm just living with dirty coats until Sat. (or maybe tomorrow, if the rain stops!) I DO comb them out almost daily, (we skip a day here and there) and put their hair up in top knots every morning. (otherwise they can't see to work!  ) I HATE it when they are this dirty... Their coats feel yucky, especially Kodi's. Also, if you saw him up close, his legs aren't even really white right now. They have a brownish tinge from built-up dirt!

Oh, and I NEVER bathe Kodi the morning of a trial. It's stressful, and he's a sensitive soul. He doesn't work as well on the day he has a bath.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I can't speak for Karen, but I don't give praise until the judge says, "exercise finished." Usually that means that on a recall, the dog has to sit square in front of me and then tell him to "finish" which means walking past my right side, behind me, and then sitting on my left side. And then the judge says "exercise finished." Lavish praise and petting follows. On a scent retrieve, I'm not sure yet how that works.
> 
> Ricky's Popi
> 
> ...


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> Even when the dog knows the WHOLE exercise chain, you want to break it up, just to keep them on their toes and keep them from anticipating.


Thank you Karen, I become too predictable and Ricky starts anticipating BEFORE I give a command. I'm going to change things up to keep everyone on their paws!


> I finish left more often, because he tends to be straighter on left finishes. (True for many, if not most dogs)


We practice both (to keep Ricky from anticipating), but yes, Ricky is "straighter", perfect, on the left finish. I thought I was doing something wrong, maybe not.


> So everyone keeps doing regular recalls along with their drops, just so the dog doesn't start to anticipate.


Same here, but it takes Ricky about 5 to 10 feet to slow down and drop (he IS coming at me at RLH speed). Is this acceptable in competition?

Thank you so much Karen, very helpful.

Ricky's Popi


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Same here, but it takes Ricky about 5 to 10 feet to slow down and drop (he IS coming at me at RLH speed). Is this acceptable in competition?
> 
> Thank you so much Karen, very helpful.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


Well, depending on how far they "travel" after the drop signal, (or voice command... You can use either, and some dogs drop faster with one than the other, (and some situations work better with one than the other!) so train both) it's points off, "minor to substantial". In the rule book, "minor" is 1/2 - 3 points off, "substantial" is 3 - 10 points off. So it can be a lot. But it's not an NQ, unless the dog is at your feet when he drops.

Kodi comes like a bullet on recalls, and I always sweat whether the judge will signal me for the drop fast enough that I can get my hand up to drop him before he gets to me. So I feel your pain. When Kodi is on his "A" game, he drops so fast he skids along the floor, which is ADORABLE, and recieves full points. (The rules require that the dog drop, not stop  ) But we lose points more often on the DOR than anywhere else. Kodi does NOT drop well on a voice command (although we continue to work on it) and he comes so fast that the physical act of getting my hand up to stop him takes enough time that it LOOKS like he's travelling, though I've seen on video that the fault is more mine than his.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Thanks Karen for the drop clarification, we have some work to do.

Another thing, I see in your video that the ring is neatly closed off with lattice. Is this common for competitions in the NE, held indoors and fenced off? I have observed at about 4 competitions here in Cali. They were all held outdoors and on grass. They were fenced in by simple stanchions, maybe 10 feet apart and cordoned off with a single rope about 3 feet off the ground. And the various competition rings were only separated by that single rope! I understand this is the norm here. These are very difficult conditions, not only for Ricky, but for all dogs. I saw many dogs last weekend who would break their exercise when they saw another dog running toward them at full speed or chasing a thrown object in the ring immediately adjacent to them. Ricky and I really need to up our game! 

On a positive note, Ricky is catching on nicely to the 4 new drills we learned in class Tuesday night. We practice about 10 minutes for 3 or 4 times a day and he is a quick study. I am fortunate he is so motivated by treats and praise. In between his "school" times, we go for long. casual walks and I let him do his thing (sniffing, exploring within the limits of his leash, chasing blowing leaves, etc.) but he will often stop and let me know he wants to "play" school some more. Yes, you are right, each one of us owns the "best" dog.

Ricky's Popi


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

[/QUOTE] Ricardo;1038209]Thanks Karen for the drop clarification, we have some work to do.[/QUOTE]

Another thing I meant to mention is that in training, we often (mentally) a "what's more than" game. (This comes from Denise Fenzi). So, for instance, knowing that fronts often get not as tight in competition, (and this is particularly true with little dogs) for my dogs in training, "what's more than a front" for Kodi has become to actually get sent THROUGh my legs at the end of an exercise. For Pixel, who is still learning fronts, HER "more than" (because she's little enoug to do it) is to actually sit ON my feet. It's easy to back them off enough from these extra-close positions.

For drops, what's "more than" a drop? For us, we teach LOTS of practice "back up over a bar and drop without letting your front feet touch the bar". This gets it firmly set in their brain that "drop" means absolutely NO forward movement. Does it hold up in competition? Well, for a little, companion breed dog who REALLY wants to come back to you, you may not be able to get that skid-stop all the time in the higher excitement/anxiety of a trial, but you'll get MUCH less travelling... And because you taught it in a positive manner, as a game, the dog doesn't worry about it and start to come in slow on the recall part. (The kiss of death, in terms of points off)

[/QUOTE] Ricardo;1038209]Another thing, I see in your video that the ring is neatly closed off with lattice. Is this common for competitions in the NE, held indoors and fenced off? I have observed at about 4 competitions here in Cali. They were all held outdoors and on grass. They were fenced in by simple stanchions, maybe 10 feet apart and cordoned off with a single rope about 3 feet off the ground. And the various competition rings were only separated by that single rope! I understand this is the norm here. These are very difficult conditions, not only for Ricky, but for all dogs. I saw many dogs last weekend who would break their exercise when they saw another dog running toward them at full speed or chasing a thrown object in the ring immediately adjacent to them. Ricky and I really need to up our game! [/QUOTE]

I know, I've seen video of Cali trials. You guys have WAY different trial conditions than we do. Yes, even outdoors, most trials in the northeast have lattice gates. Some (PVC gates) don't have the stachions, and these become a BIG problem for dogs who have been taught "go outs" to a stanchion for Utility. (Directed jumping). But you hardly EVER see the "single rope over the dog's head" rings I've seen in Cali trials. ... And CERTAINLY not in mixed breed trials where there are small dogs, where the high rope doesn't even register!

We actually only HAVE a handful of outdoor obedience trials. Our weather is just too unpredictable. Even in the summer, you can find yourself in long, dewy grass in the morning, and heavy thunder/lightening storms in the afternoon. If the rain isn't a problem, it can be 103F with 95% humidity. And for more than half the year, it's too cold/wet/snowy for them to even CHANCE running an outdoor show. As a result, except those who do sporting dog specialties, (Goldens, Labs, etc. who couldn't care less about the rain) most of the people I know trial almost exclusively indoors.

Of course, indoors is not without its challenges, and our dogs have to learn to deal with those instead. The crating areas are usually VERY tight, with dogs' crates RIGHT up against each other. Very often there is little - no warm-up area. Your dog has to be able to come out of his crate, do a couple of stretches, and during the run just before yours, have maybe a 20 feet strip of floor space in front of the ring to get his head in the game. For those of us with little dogs, it's too risky to have the dogs on the floor in the crating area or on the way to the ring. (Going RIGHT under the NOSE of large breed dogs that you don't know) so many, if not most of us carry our toy breeds from their crate to that strip in front of the ring gate.

At the big, multi-ring indoor shows, there are up to 20 rings going at the same time, 5 or 6 of those obedience and rally, the rest conformation. Many of the conformation dogs are not well trained or well behaved, and are an added danger. The buildings where these multi-ring trials are held are large, metal buildings and NOISY!!! Last summer, Kodi NQ'd at one, simply because he didn't hear me call him on the DOR. HE has never EVER not come on a formal recall, and I am SURE it was because he didn't register my voice in the surrounding noise. I called him a second time, and his DOR was flawless. It would have been a mid-190's run... Instead, it was an NQ. Oh well! 

At a smaller, 1 ring trial indoors last winter, there were MICE running around the ring when we arrived first thing in the morning. ...plus two cats, who had been put inside the building to CATCH the mice. (How well did THAT work?!? ) Plus, the heating system had these big, foil-y ducts, and a big blower. Every time the heat came on, the noise was incredibly loud and startling, AND the little dogs got practically blown off their feet. There were a LOT of NQ's that day! :laugh:

But we learn to do exactly what you're going to have to do. If you are serious about doing well in competition, make sure you get your dog to run-throughs or matches in the venues where you are likely to compete. LOTS of them. If you can't do that, rent ring time, and train by yourself there. Not AS good, because it doesn't replicate a trial situation (which, as you've found, ups the ante quite a bit!) but at least the dog gets used to working in those surroundings.

Our training building has a metal roof. MY dogs don't bat an eye at the noise of rain on it, but I've seen other dogs who are unfamiliar with the building totally freak out. Likewise, there are trains that come by quite close. My guys don't care. They've heard it several times a week from 9 weeks old. It's too much for some dogs who don't train there regularly.

But even your OWN training place is "diifferent" for a trial, and it can be a big adjustment for the dogs. We have moveable walls, and they are in different positions for a trial than for every day training. There are also lots of unfamiliar, often stressed, dogs there for a trial, who aren't there on "normal" days. The other thing that can be surprisingly stressful in small building trials is the LACK of noise. People are sitting watching, either intent on watching, or trying to be respectful of the team in the ring. As a result, the place becomes as quiet as a church. CREEPY as far as many dogs are concerned. (Again, especially ones who are "regulars" there, and used to it being a different way)

[/QUOTE] Ricardo;1038209]On a positive note, Ricky is catching on nicely to the 4 new drills we learned in class Tuesday night. We practice about 10 minutes for 3 or 4 times a day and he is a quick study. I am fortunate he is so motivated by treats and praise. In between his "school" times, we go for long. casual walks and I let him do his thing (sniffing, exploring within the limits of his leash, chasing blowing leaves, etc.) but he will often stop and let me know he wants to "play" school some more. Yes, you are right, each one of us owns the "best" dog.

Ricky's Popi[/QUOTE]

There are very few dogs who aren't motivated by treats and praise... There are just people who have not yet become believers! 

For what I've heard about you and Ricky, it is ALL positive! He's a very young dog, learning at exactly the RIGHT pace for HIM. You work with him diligently and keep it fun. You and he are both REALLY enjoying your training time and the bond that it forges. When something goes "wrong", you analyze it, learn from it, and make a plan to improve it. What could be better!?!?

As far as getting into the COMPETITION ring, while Kodi started at 15 months, this is very unusual, and most EXPERIENCED trainers (which I, of course, was not) don't recommend it. I was lucky that we didn't have a lot of fall-out that had to be "fixed" later by starting him so young. As it was, there WERE (still are) some stressy things that have taken a long time to work through. Would we have had them anyway? Maybe. Who knows? I'm ahead of you, but I'm learning as I go too!  Havanese ARE a soft breed. But if he'd had a stronger foundation before he started competing, maybe we wouldn't have seen the stress things crop up.

Most seasoned trainers have a "sort of" goal of getting their young dogs into the competition ring by AROUND 2 years old. And that is dependent on MANY variables. (For instance, some breeds are harder than others, and intact males ALWAYS take the longest to get reliably ring-ready) There is NO HURRY... Especially with a long-lived, healthy breed like Havanese. I have a friend with the top Havanese in Agility in Canada, and her Hav is 13 years old. She has told me that Bella (you can find her in the agility archives here) really started to come into her own at about 8 years old!


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## whimsy (Apr 3, 2010)

Wonderful job you two!! So enjoyable to watch!!!


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## Ollie"s Mom (May 23, 2014)

Great work Kodi. He is such a happy little man when he is working, he is such fun to watch.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ollie"s Mom said:


> Great work Kodi. He is such a happy little man when he is working, he is such fun to watch.


Thanks! When training is all positive, there's nothing for them not to like! The whole thing is a fun game!!!


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> Thanks! When training is all positive, there's nothing for them not to like! The whole thing is a fun game!!!


That's the idea, in its most concise form! One fun "trick" (i.e. rollover) is just as fun as the next fun "trick" (i.e. sit/stay). :thumb:

Ricky's Popi


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## Laurmann2000 (Sep 12, 2015)

Wow, Karen and Ricky Ricardo, your conversations are so educational. Even though I don't understand a lot of the lingo, for example "travel", "NQ" etc. I get the gist of what you're saying and find it all so fascinating. Karen you explain things so well.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Laurmann2000 said:


> Wow, Karen and Ricky Ricardo, your conversations are so educational. Even though I don't understand a lot of the lingo, for example "travel", "NQ" etc. I get the gist of what you're saying and find it all so fascinating. Karen you explain things so well.


"Traveling" is when you ask for the dog to drop during the "Drop on Recall"exercise in formal competition obedience, and instead of responding immediately by dropping into a "down", they keep moving toward you (for x distance) before they drop. If it's a short distance, they lose a few points, if it takes them longer to respond, they lose more points.

An "NQ" is "non-qualifying". There are oh, so many ways to "NQ" in an obedience run... especially in open and utility, where the dog is expected to do very complex tasks in a very specific way, and all of it is off leash. Here is one of Kodi's CDSP Open runs from earlier this year. He received 198 (out of 200) for High in Trial on this run. The exercises (and rules) are slightly different than AKC, but it's mostly the same. I mostly wanted you to see the drop on recall. In AKC, you can only use EITHER a voice or hand cue, not both. In CDSP, you can use both, as long as you use them simultaneously. (which I did in this instance)






I find CDSP to be a really fun venue, because you can help your dog a bit more than in AKC, and you can treat at the end of an exercise in the ring. I find that if we do a couple of CDSP trials in between AKC trials, it keeps Kodi's motivation and interest level up!


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> "Traveling" is when you ask for the dog to drop during the "Drop on Recall"exercise in formal competition obedience, and instead of responding immediately by dropping into a "down", they keep moving toward you (for x distance) before they drop.


Yes, Kodi does it the right way. Ricky Ricardo, a beginner novice, will "travel" slowly maybe 5 or 10 feet after I give him the "drop" command, while he is processing that command in his brain, and then he drops. That's pretty darn good for a beginner, but will not get him maximum points. Ricky and I are working on this "drop game" and we are getting better. He needs to "drop" immediately to earn maximum points for that exercise in competition. And practice makes perfect so that Ricky will not have to process that command before responding.



> An "NQ" is "non-qualifying".


 The various groups that sponsor competition events try to make the whole experience positive for both dog and handler. Rather they saying "disqualified" or "DQ" which has a negative connotation for major mistakes, they say "NQ" or "non-qualifying" which kind of takes the sting out of these mistakes.

Out of curiosity Karen, have you ever gotten an NQ? If you say yes, it will take some of my fear out of failing!



> He received 198 (out of 200) for High in Trial on this run.


For those of you not in the know, this is a near perfect exhibition of obedience! Congratulations to handler (Karen) and dog (Kodi). :first::clap2:



> I find CDSP to be a really fun venue, because you can help your dog a bit more than in AKC, and you can treat at the end of an exercise in the ring. I find that if we do a couple of CDSP trials in between AKC trials, it keeps Kodi's motivation and interest level up!


Karen, our trainer Robert talks about ASCA and UKC here in SoCal, besides AKC for Obedience and Agility Competition trials. Do you know anything about these other organizations?

Ricky's Popi


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Yes, Kodi does it the right way. Ricky Ricardo, a beginner novice, will "travel" slowly maybe 5 or 10 feet after I give him the "drop" command, while he is processing that command in his brain, and then he drops. That's pretty darn good for a beginner, but will not get him maximum points. Ricky and I are working on this "drop game" and we are getting better. He needs to "drop" immediately to earn maximum points for that exercise in competition. And practice makes perfect so that Ricky will not have to process that command before responding.





Ricky Ricardo said:


> The various groups that sponsor competition events try to make the whole experience positive for both dog and handler. Rather they saying "disqualified" or "DQ" which has a negative connotation for major mistakes, they say "NQ" or "non-qualifying" which kind of takes the sting out of these mistakes.


Not exactly. "NQ" means your dog just didn't perform at a level where they could pass in that class on that day. You CAN get "DQ'd", but this is VERY serious. It is for a bite or other aggression toward another dog or a human, or the human doing something really horrible to the dog, etc. There are serious and long-lasting ramifications of a "DQ".



Ricky Ricardo said:


> Out of curiosity Karen, have you ever gotten an NQ? If you say yes, it will take some of my fear out of failing!


Ha! We've NQ'd lots of times! We Q more times than we don't, and had a STELLAR run in WCRL, with 30 straight Q's, 3Q's in each trial, all over 195, leading to his ARCHMX. (the highest title in WCRL) I don't know many other dogs who have done that. There are a few, but not many. Now that we are working at Open, there are just lots of little things that can get you an NQ, in spite of an otherwise REALLY nice run. I'd take a "good", happy NQ over a disconnected, unhappy Q ANY day. We;re trialing tomorrow, and when we just ran through our Open run yesterday, Kodi was WAY over the top, anticipating EVERYTHING in his joy over working again, after me being either away or sick for the last 5 weeks. I think it's HIGHLY likely that he will NQ by anticipating on some critical behavior tomorrow. But as long as he's happy, I'll take anticipation over a laggy, stressed dog any day of the week. 

Incidentally, I can't remember the pass rates for Novice and open but the pass rate ("Q" rate) in Utility A is TEN PERCENT!!! That means that the average Utility A dog has to try 30 times to get their Utility title. Now, of course few dogs actually hit the average, so you have dogs who are handled by very good, experienced trainers and get their Utility title in 3 runs... Then you have MANY more where people try repeatedly ad give up without EVER getting the dog's UD. There is absolutely NO shame in an NQ. It happens to absolutely everyone. it's part of the game. Formal, competitive obedience is HARD!!!



Ricky Ricardo said:


> For those of you not in the know, this is a near perfect exhibition of obedience! Congratulations to handler (Karen) and dog (Kodi). :first::clap2:





Ricky Ricardo said:


> Thanks. :blush: I was THRILLED! Kodi is pretty darned good, but we've never been High in Trial before. I was tickled pink.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Oh, just wanted to add, for those who aren't used to watching Obedience, Kodi did not lose points for "kibitzing" with the judge, because that was BETWEEN exercises. Unless the dog does something pretty horrible (like leaving the ring and not coming back, biting the judge or peeing in the ring) they are not being scored until the judge says "Are you ready?" and the handler says "Yes!" 

Can't remember where he lost the 2 points... I'd have to go back and watch the whole run closely.


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## Laurmann2000 (Sep 12, 2015)

Thanks for explaining things to me and congratulations on such a high score. Also thanks for explaining about Kodi's little adventure over to the judge. I was wondering if that is where he lost points but good to know it was in between activities. Just amazing to watch you and Kodi. I love how he moves and you both look like you enjoy it so much. You must spend so much time training. I don't think I'd have the patience for that kind of training. 

When I got my bulldog I took her to a basic obedience class. The instructor was not the most pleasant man and during one of the classes he embarrassed me terribly. My dog didn't perform as expected and I commented that she does it at home perfectly and he ended up yelling at me saying that just because she does it at home well doesn't mean she is going to do it with distractions and he was "sick of hearing people say that". Obviously I wanted to crawl under a rock. I felt like a little kid being scolded in class. Anyway, I was determined that would never happen again so I really worked hard at training and my dog did great. By the time the class was complete and we had to do the final test run, my bulldog got first place. He said he has never seen a bulldog win first place at obedience. I was so proud but would never take classes from this trainer again. He used food based rewards but also harsh corrections which I really didn't like and didn't use with my dog. I never went further with her training because I think this trainers methods turned me off. That was in NJ and I now live in Florida so when I get my Havanese I will look for a good trainer here and maybe I can take it further than just basic obedience. I'd really love to have my dog get therapy dog certified so I can bring her to nursing homes.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Laurmann2000 said:


> Thanks for explaining things to me and congratulations on such a high score. Also thanks for explaining about Kodi's little adventure over to the judge. I was wondering if that is where he lost points but good to know it was in between activities. Just amazing to watch you and Kodi. I love how he moves and you both look like you enjoy it so much. You must spend so much time training. I don't think I'd have the patience for that kind of training.
> 
> When I got my bulldog I took her to a basic obedience class. The instructor was not the most pleasant man and during one of the classes he embarrassed me terribly. My dog didn't perform as expected and I commented that she does it at home perfectly and he ended up yelling at me saying that just because she does it at home well doesn't mean she is going to do it with distractions and he was "sick of hearing people say that". Obviously I wanted to crawl under a rock. I felt like a little kid being scolded in class. Anyway, I was determined that would never happen again so I really worked hard at training and my dog did great. By the time the class was complete and we had to do the final test run, my bulldog got first place. He said he has never seen a bulldog win first place at obedience. I was so proud but would never take classes from this trainer again. He used food based rewards but also harsh corrections which I really didn't like and didn't use with my dog. I never went further with her training because I think this trainers methods turned me off. That was in NJ and I now live in Florida so when I get my Havanese I will look for a good trainer here and maybe I can take it further than just basic obedience. I'd really love to have my dog get therapy dog certified so I can bring her to nursing homes.


What a horrible experience! Yes, people who are new to dog trIning DO say that a lot ("he does it perfectly at home!" ) but, as a trainer/instructor, he should KNOW that new handlers need to be taught the need to help their dogs generalize their training to other settings. Shame on him, not you!!!

And as you've heard me and Ricky's dad say, in dog training, you will get good results and a much better relationship with your dog with positive training methods. Many of the "traditional" obedience breeds, like Goldens and Labs can take the harsh corrections and keep working. (Which is why they BECAME the "traditional obedience breeds", but even they can CERTAINLY be trained with totally positive methods. Everyone at my training center only uses positive training, and we have MANY high-level competitors! But with small, soft dogs like Havanese, you can shut them down forever with harsh corrections. Not a good way to train this breed! So when you decide on a training place, make sure you go and watch first and make sure you agree with their training methods!

As far as how much training Kodi and I do, I do train almost daily, but often it's for no more than 10 minutes or so. When Kodi was a puppy, and now with Pixel, I try to train about 3 times a day, but no more than 5 minutes at a time. You can do it during TV commercials! 

Of course, I have always also worked with a trainer at least once a week with each dog... And Kodi has a separate agility lesson each week. But that's only because I love training so much. You can CERTAINLy make good progress with only a few minutes of training a day, and a lesson every week or so. And it is the BEST way to develop a really strong bond with your dog!


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Let me throw in my dos centavos on trainers. Robert, our trainer is an imposing man in his late 40's. He is about 6-3 and around 300 pounds, and no I am not exaggerating! He is one of the top trainers in SoCal and has many competition awards to prove it. He is also a respected judge. He is not a warm and fuzzy personality.....until you have earned his respect. He rarely interacts with a student's dog and he emphasizes only positive reinforcement for the dog, but human handlers are a different matter. We started out with 17 in our advance training class and we are now down to 11. Some handlers just couldn't take the public criticism (and rightly so) and dropped out. I have been yelled at so many times in class that I can't count how many. I NEVER argue or make excuses to him, I just say, "okay, we'll work on it!" because, I know that Robert is right. Last Tuesday one of the handlers was called out in class for obvious errors in her handling. As we continued on in our heel exercise she was 4 feet on my left (my good ear) and she was swearing under her breath at Robert in language that would make a sailor blush! ound: There are 5 of us in that class who want to go on into serious competition. He is much harder on the 5 of us than the others who are just trying to achieve a well trained dog around the house. 

Yes, Ricky is perfect when I train him at home in our back, brick driveway with no distractions around. But in class, on grass, with a dozen dogs going every which direction within 4 feet of him, he is less than perfect, but he is making huge improvements each week, to the point that we are being recognized for kudos in that tough class with some dogs who are repeating this class for the third time!

Last week, I used both hands on either side of Ricky to gently move him into the place where I wanted him, when he wouldn't respond to my commands. Robert came down on my like a ton of bricks!!!!!!! He said, "Never use your hands for corrections. Hands are for petting, massaging, and playing with your dog. Corrections should be made with proper cues and proper and skillful use of the leash!"

So yes, Laurmann, I feel for you. I've been through it too. I don't blame you for looking for a different trainer, someone who meets your needs. But I have developed a thick skin, as well as the others in our class. And at this point, I welcome a loud "verbal correction" from Robert because he is trying to get ME, the handler, to the next level.........AND.........it just reinforces why I NEVER want to yell at Ricky, I know what it feels like.

I probably train with Ricky too much, 5 or 6 ten minute sessions a day. But he is always begging me to go to what I call "school." He loves all the routine of training and all the praising he gets. I have been cutting way back on the number of treats he gets and that doesn't seem to dampen his enthusiasm for school. This morning we are not training outside. A cold front has moved in with moderate winds and the wind chill is in the 30's. We will do a few things inside the house later this morning just to stimulate his brain or maybe we will go over to Home Depot and train inside their store for 10 minutes. Its all good.

Keep us posted on your experiences, you have my support and encouragement.

Ricky's Popi


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Just wanted to say that truly positive trainers don't use the leash for correction either. It is there ONLY as a "safety net" for novice (and not yet novice) dogs. Pixel hasn't yet worn a leash during heeling work. When we have ALL the babies out on the floor at the same time in our class (which includes a HUGE adolescent Terv, who thinks Pixel is the cat's pajamas  ) we do keep leashes on them as a fail safe. but more often than not, we don't even have the leashes in our hands... just on the floor where we can step on them if the puppy makes a sudden dart in a wrong direction.

One of my obedience instructors OCCASIONALLY loses her cool with someone who's just not listening, or keeps repeating the same mistake, but she rarely yells at people. I'm glad. I ALWAYS try hard, and so does my dog. I don't think getting yelled at would make EITHER of us learn faster!


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> Just wanted to say that truly positive trainers don't use the leash for correction either.


Interesting! Ricky and I will often train off leash, now more than ever. Actually, although some lagging and sniffing, he did pretty darned good off leash in the trials last week. I think this week we will be mostly off leash in our advanced training class which should be interesting. I am looking forward to training Ricky some new exercises without a leash. This is going to be a challenge for me! For example, how do you teach a dog something simple like "sit" without a leash and without touching them? How would touching them and forcing the back down to learn how to sit, any more positive than using a leash to gently guide them in place? I guess I am going to disagree that using a leash properly is by definition negative training.

I guess we have a tough group out here in SoCal!

Ricky's Popi


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Interesting! Ricky and I will often train off leash, now more than ever. Actually, although some lagging and sniffing, he did pretty darned good off leash in the trials last week. I think this week we will be mostly off leash in our advanced training class which should be interesting. I am looking forward to training Ricky some new exercises without a leash. This is going to be a challenge for me! For example, how do you teach a dog something simple like "sit" without a leash and without touching them? How would touching them and forcing the back down to learn how to sit, any more positive than using a leash to gently guide them in place? I guess I am going to disagree that using a leash properly is by definition negative training.
> 
> I guess we have a tough group out here in SoCal!
> 
> Ricky's Popi


There are more people who use positive AND forceful methods in training than purely force-free trainers (a better term than "positive" even though we mostly use that as "shorthand" that novices will understand)

I believe in is force-free training because I've SEEN that it can accomplish exactly the same things as applying force (even gentle force) in training, without any of the potential fall-out. Using a leash is applying force, no matter how gently it is done. As is pushing down on the dog's rear end, even if done gently. Both methods tend to lead to slow sits. Working with a clicker to reward faster and faster responses makes LIGHTENING fast response to cues.

Using a leash or forcing a dog into a specific position with your hands physically technically isn't "negative" anything. In behavioral terms, it is "positive punishment"... Something that is applied to the animal which the animal finds aversive, so learn to avoid by doing a specific behavior.

How do you teach sits and downs without the use of any force? (and stand for that matter, though I didn't focus on it in this video, if you watch, you will see that Pixel does know the hand signal for a stand too) It's actually quite easy! I just made this video this afternoon to show you. Please excuse the "bad big dog" who HATES it when Pixel is the center of attention! :laugh:


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## Janet (Feb 19, 2007)

This is an interesting thread! I had assumed that a positive-based trainer would apply that to people as well as dogs! But it seems not!


Janet


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Janet said:


> This is an interesting thread! I had assumed that a positive-based trainer would apply that to people as well as dogs! But it seems not!
> 
> Janet


One would hope!  Our trainers are very kind.  (and also OTCH producing AKC judges  )


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Gee Karen, thanks for taking the time to make this video. I now understand how your technique works. Although Ricky already knows these cues, I'm going try some of your techniques on him. I'm going to try them in class tomorrow night and see what kind of a reaction I get! In fact, since it is too cold and windy to go out tonight, I'm going to try these techniques right now! What are the treats you are using in this particularly video?

That Pixie Pixel is certainly cute and a quick study......must have something to do with the handler and her techniques. :thumb:

Ricky's Popi


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Well, we just finished 10 minutes of intense training indoors tonight using Karen's methods and it was a smashing success! I tried a new cue tonight, "set up" that Ricky was totally unfamiliar with. It took about 3 minutes for him to master that and I didn't touch him once! I have not been rewarding with treats as much as Karen does, and tonight, with more treats, the results were spectacular. Ricky didn't want to quit working but I cut it off after 10 minutes and then we played together. We will continue to work on "set up" until it is completely ingrained in Ricky. Thank you Karen from both of us!

Now I need to figure out how to get Karen to post a 5 minute video on the "back" cue using no touch! :wink2:

Ricky's Popi


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## Laurmann2000 (Sep 12, 2015)

Thanks Ricky for sharing your experience with your trainer. Robert sounds a lot like my old trainer and if I remember correctly his name was Robert also. About the same size as your trainer with lots of tattoos but mine was at least late 50's. There were some people in my class who also quit because of him. Anyway that was in NJ and I'm in Florida now so even if I wanted to go back to him I couldn't. Anyway, I have to get my Havanese first. LOL. But I love the education in this thread and I'm soaking it all up. It's so great that Ricky enjoys the training sessions with you and obviously you do too. Would love to see a video of Ricky if you ever make one. It's killing me having to wait to get my puppy and watching videos and looking at pictures helps me get my fix. LOL Now what I need is to find a show that I can go to so I can meet some Havanese IRL. I can't believe I've fallen in love with a breed that I have never met. Although I may have met one at some point in my life but didn't know what it was. But that doesn't count. 

Karen, OMG, Pixel is adorable and amazing. The way she bounces on her hind legs is just too cute! You do such a great job guiding her with those treats. I used that method to teach sit with my bulldog but I could never get her to go to a down without her sitting first. You demonstrate it so well. I'm going to keep referencing your video when it's time. Thank you so much for posting that. Also it's so nice to see Pixel. Most of your videos are of Kodi, who you know I adore, so it's great to be able to see his sister. Though he was just too funny walking in front of the camera. Had me laughing out loud. With Pixel's all black coat, it's hard to see just how cute she is in photographs so the video really lets you experience her adorableness. Karen, how did you teach her to jump into her crate?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Gee Karen, thanks for taking the time to make this video. I now understand how your technique works. Although Ricky already knows these cues, I'm going try some of your techniques on him. I'm going to try them in class tomorrow night and see what kind of a reaction I get! In fact, since it is too cold and windy to go out tonight, I'm going to try these techniques right now! What are the treats you are using in this particularly video?
> 
> That Pixie Pixel is certainly cute and a quick study......must have something to do with the handler and her techniques. :thumb:
> 
> Ricky's Popi


Ha! She's a smarty pants, but she was just "demo dog" in this. She knows these cues at this point! 

I think the "cookies" were a packaged one called "My little wolf". I just grabbed something off the self. Nothing special. I like this brand because they can be easily broken into TINY pieces by hand.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Well, we just finished 10 minutes of intense training indoors tonight using Karen's methods and it was a smashing success! I tried a new cue tonight, "set up" that Ricky was totally unfamiliar with. It took about 3 minutes for him to master that and I didn't touch him once! I have not been rewarding with treats as much as Karen does, and tonight, with more treats, the results were spectacular. Ricky didn't want to quit working but I cut it off after 10 minutes and then we played together. We will continue to work on "set up" until it is completely ingrained in Ricky. Thank you Karen from both of us!
> 
> Now I need to figure out how to get Karen to post a 5 minute video on the "back" cue using no touch! :wink2:
> 
> Ricky's Popi


Back in front of you? Or back in heel position?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Laurmann2000 said:


> Thanks Ricky for sharing your experience with your trainer. Robert sounds a lot like my old trainer and if I remember correctly his name was Robert also. About the same size as your trainer with lots of tattoos but mine was at least late 50's. There were some people in my class who also quit because of him. Anyway that was in NJ and I'm in Florida now so even if I wanted to go back to him I couldn't. Anyway, I have to get my Havanese first. LOL. But I love the education in this thread and I'm soaking it all up. It's so great that Ricky enjoys the training sessions with you and obviously you do too. Would love to see a video of Ricky if you ever make one. It's killing me having to wait to get my puppy and watching videos and looking at pictures helps me get my fix. LOL Now what I need is to find a show that I can go to so I can meet some Havanese IRL. I can't believe I've fallen in love with a breed that I have never met. Although I may have met one at some point in my life but didn't know what it was. But that doesn't count.
> 
> Karen, OMG, Pixel is adorable and amazing. The way she bounces on her hind legs is just too cute! You do such a great job guiding her with those treats. I used that method to teach sit with my bulldog but I could never get her to go to a down without her sitting first. You demonstrate it so well. I'm going to keep referencing your video when it's time. Thank you so much for posting that. Also it's so nice to see Pixel. Most of your videos are of Kodi, who you know I adore, so it's great to be able to see his sister. Though he was just too funny walking in front of the camera. Had me laughing out loud. With Pixel's all black coat, it's hard to see just how cute she is in photographs so the video really lets you experience her adorableness. Karen, how did you teach her to jump into her crate?


She's just a jumping bean! Her favorite "Purple Monkey" lives in her crate, and she just started jumping in to get him. When I saw that she could easily jump in, (I have only JUST started letting her jump out!) I started to encourage her to do it at bed time too, by putting a cookie in the crate (while she watched) and saying "Go to bed!". Now she will do it without the cookie, but they always get a bed-time cookie anyway. (their only "freebie" cookie of the day! )

She jumps into the back of the car to get into her crate too. (and is NEVER allowed to jump out of there!!! )


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> I think the "cookies" were a packaged one called "My little wolf". I just grabbed something off the self. Nothing special. I like this brand because they can be easily broken into TINY pieces by hand.


I know we have talked about training treats time and time again here on HF, but I still don't have this committed to memory! I worry about Ricky gaining weight by using too many treats in his training. What I usually treat him with is kibble - small, easy, relatively lo-cal, not messy. We also have a home dehydrator and I dehydrate bananas, then freeze the slices. I then break these up into quarters for treats. Ricky loves frozen blueberries and sometimes I use those. I also use plain air-popped popcorn or fresh vegetables from time to time. Ricky likes them all. But I am always looking for easy, pre-packaged treats. Ricky LOVES Plato's Chicken treats but they are too big, even when broken into quarter pieces.

Any suggestions, anyone?

Ricky's Popi


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> Back in front of you? Or back in heel position?


Back up, walking backwards.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> I started to encourage her to do it at bed time too, by putting a cookie in the crate (while she watched) and saying "Go to bed!". Now she will do it without the cookie, but they always get a bed-time cookie anyway. (their only "freebie" cookie of the day! )


Ricky has both a "bed" (soft sided doggie bed) in our library and a "crate" in our bedroom where he sleeps at night. He never uses his crate except at night. During the day he will snooze or play in his bed and in the evening, while we are in the library, he generally begins to "shut down" around 8 pm and go to sleep in his "bed". When we go to our bed, we wake him up to go to his crate and he is reluctant to do so because he is so comfortable and groggy. Putting a cookie in the crate at that time is a BRILLIANT idea!!!!! and a nice loving gesture. I can't wait to try this tonight!



> She jumps into the back of the car to get into her crate too. (and is NEVER allowed to jump out of there!!! )


Karen, if you saw what Ricky does, you would have seizures! He is a daredevil. I would seriously think about training him for dock diving competition if it weren't for the mess it would make with his coat. Dock diving is a BIG sport out here with a lot of short haired coats like Labs.

Ricky's Popi


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I know we have talked about training treats time and time again here on HF, but I still don't have this committed to memory! I worry about Ricky gaining weight by using too many treats in his training. What I usually treat him with is kibble - small, easy, relatively lo-cal, not messy. We also have a home dehydrator and I dehydrate bananas, then freeze the slices. I then break these up into quarters for treats. Ricky loves frozen blueberries and sometimes I use those. I also use plain air-popped popcorn or fresh vegetables from time to time. Ricky likes them all. But I am always looking for easy, pre-packaged treats. Ricky LOVES Plato's Chicken treats but they are too big, even when broken into quarter pieces.
> 
> Any suggestions, anyone?
> 
> Ricky's Popi


I don't worry about it. I ALWAYS use nutritious, good food-quality treats, and then I just adjust their meals to account for the calories they take in in training. Since we train about the same amount over the course of any one week, at this point, I know pretty well what they both need at dinner time to fill out their diet.

I do use Plato treats... One single "square" can last a whole training session for pixel... I just break off tiny, bits, one at a time. We probably get twenty reps out of a single "square".

Kibble wouldn't work for Pixel... She has to stop and chew everything that's not tiny AND soft. So we'd lose the continuity of the work. Kodi just doesn't think kibble is a very high value "treat". I would NOT use popcorn for my dogs. Corn is not a good food item for dogs. I also doubt they'd be very interested.

Whenever pork loin roasts are on sale (sometimes you can get hem for under $2 per lb!) I'll get a few to throw in the freezer. I'll cook one for dinner (WAY two big for the two of us!!!0 and the rest gets cubed in tiny pieces and thrown back in the freezer in small portions. GREAT high protein, low fat training training treats, and they LOVE it!!!) I also cook extra chicken for them, though that's a bit messier than the pork in terms of delivery... it can get crumbly. I use low fat,low salt string cheese for Pixel at times, though Kodi is dairy intolerant so he can't have it.

Another "easy" one is Fresh Pet. the rolls can be cubed small, or get the "pellet" type. Each pellet can easily be broken into 4 pieces, and is good, nutritionally balanced dog food. Fresh Pet also makes treat food called "Dog Joy" (chicken or beef) They look like littles sausages. I cut these in quarters length-wise, then cut them 6 times across, yielding 28 training treats per sausage!

And the "My Little Wolf" comes in several flavors. There's nothing "bad" in it, though I prefer less processed treats. But they are handy because they don't require refrigeration. Each little square is 2.7 calories according to the label, and I can get 6 training treats per square! (and no pre-cutting required!)

I use LOTS of different things. Veggies are OK at home, but not high enough value under challenging circumstances. Kodi will ALWAYS work for blueberries, but they don't make a good "pocket treat"! 

For the highest stakes situations (trials, where I know he might get tired or stressed) I don't worry about whether it's "good for him"or high calorie, or salty. I go for what he likes best. Sometimes that's Liverwurst, sometimes that's Italian Chicken Carver pre-packaged chicken (Perdue, I think?) This STINKS to high heavens, and he thinks it's THE BEST!!!  Or frozen turkey meatballs, which are another favorite. Lots of people actually use raw meat as trial rewards, but I can't bring myself to using raw meat at a trial. 

Oh, and Kodi thinks that Starbucks is now packaging blueberries JUST for his on-the-way-home-from-trials treat!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Back up, walking backwards.


Yes,but in what position? away from you (in front)? Or beside you (in heel position)? They are taught differently.

In front is relatively easy. to get a STRAIGHT back in heel position takes lots and lots and LOTS of practice!!!


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> Or beside you (in heel position)? They are taught differently..........to get a STRAIGHT back in heel position takes lots and lots and LOTS of practice!!!


Wouldn't you know I would want the difficult one! :nerd:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Wouldn't you know I would want the difficult one! :nerd:


That's fine! I just needed to know which you wanted to work on. They don't really generalize from one to the other. It's not hard to "teach" it... what's HARD is getting the dog to back straight CONSISTENTLY.

And... With a Havanese, keeping your footwork good enough that you don't step on hair. Kodi had a pretty straight back... until I stepped on his hair and pulled out a HUGE chunk in a trial. Since then since we don't work on it all that much, he is SOMETIMES straight, and other times seems to remember that he might get stepped on, and curves away from me as he backs up. Oh well, we're pretty much done with Rally except to play in the ring anyway, so it's not something I want to harp on. As my trainer says, "If you care enough, you'll fix it." On this one, I don't. 

I don't think I'll have time for a video today, but I'll try tomorrow.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> but they always get a bed-time cookie anyway.


OMD! muchas gracias tia Karen! Popi now gives mi a cookie at bedtime and love it! :whoo: I am also now getting more treats during school. I love going to school with Popi and now I get more treats two. I owe yu bigtime por these hints too Popi. When we meet I'm gonna share mi bully stick with yu, Kodi, y Pixie Pixel! :brushteeth:

muchos besos, Ricky Ricardo


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> OMD! muchas gracias tia Karen! Popi now gives mi a cookie at bedtime and love it! :whoo: I am also now getting more treats during school. I love going to school with Popi and now I get more treats two. I owe yu bigtime por these hints too Popi. When we meet I'm gonna share mi bully stick with yu, Kodi, y Pixie Pixel! :brushteeth:
> 
> muchos besos, Ricky Ricardo


Ricky, you remind Popi... people are often too quick to want to reduce the number of cookies while teaching new behaviors. (including generalizing those behaviors to new situations, which counts as "new learning" too) On fully learned behaviors , and that's typically household manners stuff, more than formal competitive obedience stuff, he certainly doesn't want to become a "Pez dispenser". (which I know you would probably like, but... ) But whenever reducing food rewards, it has to be done using an intermittent reinforcement schedule.

For competition obedience behaviors, have Popi remember that this is HIS game, and you are playing along because you love him. It does absolutely NO harm to your training, even on fully learned behaviors, to put "money in the bank" by rewarding for excellent work. The hard part for humans is to consistently hold high criteria, and only pay EXCELLENT work on learned behaviors. But I suspect this is far in the future for you, Ricky. Even when you are doing good (even excellent!) work in class or a mock trial/match situation, you are still in the learning and/or generalizing stage for almost all your competition work in a public setting. So you need OTS of "pay" so that you know you are doing it right and want to stay engaged.

BUT... Pay can be food OR play, and to a lesser extent, praise or pats (petting depends on the dog... some don't like it while they are working... Kodi finds soft stroking on his chest very comforting) Kodi worked at our training center yesterday (I rented ring time) and he did ALL his work, not for cookies, but for a chance to retrieve (or carry while heeling) his dumbbell for good work. He had a blast!!!

As far as "bedtime cookies" are concerned... that's just our family ritual and has NOTHING to do with training... When my horses lived at home, they got a carrot when I tucked them in at night too. The pups also get an egg (split between them) when ever we have eggs in the morning. It's just because we love them and enjoy seeing them enjoy something! Nothing wrong with that!


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

We just came in from our 45 minute morning ritual of training, walking casually on leash, and playing. .There were lots of blowing Sycamore leaves and everyone of them was a new, best toy for Ricky! I did ignore them while in "school" but during his frequent "recesses", he thought he could catch every leaf. We also meet up with some f his amigo dogs on the walk and he has to ignore them while in school, but then I usually release him for a couple of minutes of raucous play. This makes his "school" that much more fun, because when he follows my cues, he knows that it is going to pay off big with some playtime.

This morning, we were in school on the lawn, practicing routine exercises. Then amigo Bertie, a chihuahua mix rescue, came walking by with his Momi. I thought this is a golden opportunity for training! I put Ricky in a "sit/stay" with his back to Bertie. I walked about 60 feet over to Bertie and played with him for about a minute. Ricky's neck swiveled around 180 to watch, with much dismay, but he DID NOT BUDGE! :whoo: Then Bertie's Momi says can Ricky come over and play a minute? I thought another opportunity for training!!!!! I gave Ricky the "front" cue and he took off like a shot........straight to Bertie! :frusty: We're going to need a bit more work on this! Ricky must have thought, screw Popi's reward cookie, I'm going to get in some serious playtime with amigo Bertie!

Karen's "no touch", "no leash pull" technique is working out GREAT! Ricky is responding to the reward treats with enthusiasm. I found some treats at Petco called "Crazy Dog Training Treats" The package says they are 1.6 cal. per treat. The primary ingredient is pork. Ricky loves them. The company headquarters is about 40 miles down the road from me and I called and asked them technical questions about the composition. They were very cooperative. They said they formulate the ingredients with a veterinarian dietitian and then contract with a company in Minnesota for manufacturing and packaging. They said it IS NOT Diamond Foods.

I give Ricky a cookie (usually a dehydrated banana slice) at bedtime. No tricks are required it is now part of our routine. Ricky is so grateful and goes to sleep immediately as a happy, happy dog.

So many good ideas on this Forum! Thanks to all of you and in particular to Karen and her menagerie. :cheer2:

Ricky's Popi


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> We just came in from our 45 minute morning ritual of training, walking casually on leash, and playing. .There were lots of blowing Sycamore leaves and everyone of them was a new, best toy for Ricky! I did ignore them while in "school" but during his frequent "recesses", he thought he could catch every leaf. We also meet up with some f his amigo dogs on the walk and he has to ignore them while in school, but then I usually release him for a couple of minutes of raucous play. This makes his "school" that much more fun, because when he follows my cues, he knows that it is going to pay off big with some playtime.
> 
> This morning, we were in school on the lawn, practicing routine exercises. Then amigo Bertie, a chihuahua mix rescue, came walking by with his Momi. I thought this is a golden opportunity for training! I put Ricky in a "sit/stay" with his back to Bertie. I walked about 60 feet over to Bertie and played with him for about a minute. Ricky's neck swiveled around 180 to watch, with much dismay, but he DID NOT BUDGE! :whoo: Then Bertie's Momi says can Ricky come over and play a minute? I thought another opportunity for training!!!!! I gave Ricky the "front" cue and he took off like a shot........straight to Bertie! :frusty: We're going to need a bit more work on this! Ricky must have thought, screw Popi's reward cookie, I'm going to get in some serious playtime with amigo Bertie!
> 
> ...


Awesome! You guys are doing great work. As far as the situation with the stay/ failed front. A couple of thoughts. First, I would never ask for a front from a stay. You don't want the dog to ever think that the right answer is to leave the stay on their own. In competition, the dog NEVER gets up from the stay until the handler has returned to heel position and the judge says "Exercise finished". For the short "stay" for a recall, retrieve, etc, I use the cue "wait" rather than stay, just to differentiate.

In a "real life" stay, you don't want the dog to think they can move from a stay until you return for safety reasons. What if they misunderstand and try to return across a busy street? They need to understand that "Stay means stay. Period. Until I return to you and release you."

I also think you were asking a HUGE amount from Ricky asking for a front, when he'd already maintained the stay not only in the presence of the other dog, but with you PLAYING with the other dog. That is a HUGE level of distraction. Some dogs, even good obedience dogs, could NEVER do this. If I'd wanted to work a front in front of this dog too, I would have gone back to Ricky, given him a jackpot for being so good on the stay, then set him up somewhere else and asked for a front from a very short distance. That way, I suspect he would have been successful (and rewarded) twice, rather than ending up with no reward for the good stay, then failing on the front.

Ricky is a young dog. Take your time. Many, many solid experiences of doing it right will get you farther, faster, than testing the limits too often.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> As far as the situation with the stay/ failed front. A couple of thoughts. First, I would never ask for a front from a stay. You don't want the dog to ever think that the right answer is to leave the stay on their own. In competition, the dog NEVER gets up from the stay until the handler has returned to heel position and the judge says "Exercise finished". For the short "stay" for a recall, retrieve, etc, I use the cue "wait" rather than stay, just to differentiate.


This is the first I have heard about this distinction. It is a subtle distinction but I can see the importance. We are know practicing both "stay" and "wait". Ricky is beginning to understand the important difference, and so am I!


> I also think you were asking a HUGE amount from Ricky asking for a front, when he'd already maintained the stay not only in the presence of the other dog, but with you PLAYING with the other dog. That is a HUGE level of distraction. Some dogs, even good obedience dogs, could NEVER do this. If I'd wanted to work a front in front of this dog too, I would have gone back to Ricky, given him a jackpot for being so good on the stay, then set him up somewhere else and asked for a front from a very short distance. That way, I suspect he would have been successful (and rewarded) twice, rather than ending up with no reward for the good stay, then failing on the front.


I see what you are saying and I have changed my training regime accordingly. Ricky didn't fail on his recall, I did! I have fixed this. Thank you.



> Ricky is a young dog. Take your time. Many, many solid experiences of doing it right will get you farther, faster, than testing the limits too often.


Thank for the gentle correction. I understand. See, you can teach an old dog new tricks (me) and a new dog old tricks (Ricky).

I have discovered some vegetarian hot dogs that are 50 calories per wiener. These are VERY HIGH REWARD for Ricky. I cut them up into pieces about the size of a pea and use them as a very low calorie treat. When I use them, I have his rapt attention and he responds better than ever. We spend some time each day working exclusively on grass. It is going well, although it really bugs him when he gets a leaf or debris caught in his fur and he will stop to get it out. I don't worry too much about that and let it slide.

This is fun for both of us. When I say, "Ricky time for school" he goes charging for the door because he really enjoys working. I cut it off at 10 minutes (otherwise he just wants to keep working) and play with him, or let him chase leaves, sniff the ground, RLH, and hind leg salute every tree in sight!

thanks, Karen


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> This is the first I have heard about this distinction. It is a subtle distinction but I can see the importance. We are know practicing both "stay" and "wait". Ricky is beginning to understand the important difference, and so am I!
> 
> I see what you are saying and I have changed my training regime accordingly. Ricky didn't fail on his recall, I did! I have fixed this. Thank you.


It's great that you recognize that it was your mistake... It's almost ALWAYS *OUR* mistake when the dog messes up. But we need to always be thinking in our training, "How do I set my dog up for success?" That said I realize that it's MUCH easier at times to see these mistakes in hind sight than in the moment. BELIEVE ME, we ALL push our dogs too hard at times! 



Ricky Ricardo said:


> I have discovered some vegetarian hot dogs that are 50 calories per wiener. These are VERY HIGH REWARD for Ricky. I cut them up into pieces about the size of a pea and use them as a very low calorie treat. When I use them, I have his rapt attention and he responds better than ever. We spend some time each day working exclusively on grass. It is going well, although it really bugs him when he gets a leaf or debris caught in his fur and he will stop to get it out. I don't worry too much about that and let it slide.


Cool on the weiners! You will find that you need to keep finding "new favorites" over times. We rotate through things, so that Kodi doesn't get tired of anything. It's harder to rotate TOO much with Pixel, because the treats have to be VERY soft as well as very small, or she spends SO much time chewing them!

As far as leaves are concerned, this is a "Havanese personal problem"  I haven't met ONE performance Hav who doesn't ave a problem when leaves or other debris get caught in their fur... ESPECIALLY between their hind legs!!! The best you can do is to "police" the area first, to try to avoid that stuff.



Ricky Ricardo said:


> This is fun for both of us. When I say, "Ricky time for school" he goes charging for the door because he really enjoys working. I cut it off at 10 minutes (otherwise he just wants to keep working) and play with him, or let him chase leaves, sniff the ground, RLH, and hind leg salute every tree in sight!


Absolutely perfect! Kodi can work for an hour and be begging for more. But he wouldn't keep up that enthusiasm if he did it every day. And the other thing is that we work on ALL the obedience exercises during that time, so we don't work on any one thing for that long. I had a private yesterday, and we worked on:

Directed Jumping
Directed retrieve (gloves) (including the pivots needed)
Stand for exam
Moving Stand/Signals exercise
Group stays (shanghai'd a couple of other dogs for that )
Figure 8's (off leash)
Dumbell retrieve over the high
Scent articles

With that many exercises to work on, and giving him several couple of minute breaks to have a drink and rest in his crate, we EASILY used up an hour, without "drilling" on anything. We alternated between things he's good at, (the figure 8 and dumbbell retrieves) with things that are newer to him or that he finds more difficult.

If I don't have a lesson, or it's one of or group lesson days, we usually only work on two or 3 different things on any one day. As I've said before, you and Ricky are doing GREAT!!!


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> It's almost ALWAYS *OUR* mistake when the dog messes up.


Ricky was awesome at training class tonight! We only received one correction from the trainer and it was I who screwed up. The trainer said, "Ricky is doing great but you Popi, just caused the Ricky Team, 3 points in competition for your error!" :frusty: He was right. I knew better and just wasn't thinking! :frusty:

One handler in the class has 8 years of experience in Obedience competition. Some of the student dogs are veterans in the Obedience ring. However, Ricky is the best in the class at "recall/finish". I used the "wait" command tonight and Ricky executed perfectly, covered the distance faster than any other dog, and skidded to a perfect "front" at my feet looking straight up into my face. He is also perfect in "group stays." We have worked hard over the last two weeks to correct MY training error and Ricky now is dependable on his "stand for exam."

Ricky is the smallest dog in the class by far. As a result he has become a class favorite and everyone roots for him. I am so taken with my amigo!

Ricky's Popi


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Awesome! Sounds like you and Ricky are getting close to taking the show on the road!


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## Laurmann2000 (Sep 12, 2015)

Ricky, ask your Papi if he could video tape you? I'd love to see you showing your abilities. I have been enjoying watching Kodi perform and would love to see you too, if possible. Gracias.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> Sounds like you and Ricky are getting close to taking the show on the road!


It looks like we are headed for the AKC Obedience trials in Palm Springs, January 10. I'm trying to figure out what the difference is in: beginner Novice A, beginner Novice B, Novice Class A, Novice Class B, and Pre Novice. Which one do we enter? Then I need to memorize the AKC rules for that particular trial.

As far as getting a video, I need to find a stranger who will video us, because if I use a family member, Ricky is not ready for that distraction. He is still too "green."

Thanks to all for your encouragement.

Popi and Ricky Ricardo


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## Laurmann2000 (Sep 12, 2015)

Oh how exciting. Your first trial. Good luck Ricky! I know you'll do great.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> It looks like we are headed for the AKC Obedience trials in Palm Springs, January 10. I'm trying to figure out what the difference is in: beginner Novice A, beginner Novice B, Novice Class A, Novice Class B, and Pre Novice. Which one do we enter? Then I need to memorize the AKC rules for that particular trial.
> 
> As far as getting a video, I need to find a stranger who will video us, because if I use a family member, Ricky is not ready for that distraction. He is still too "green."
> 
> ...


Ricky is your "Novice A dog" because you have never titled a dog in AKC obedience. Take advantage of that! The classes are smaller, and the judges typically a BIT more lenient with the "A" handlers. Once you have titled ONE dog in Novice, you can never enter Novice A again.

You should really get a rule book NOW and start reading ALL the general rules, as well as reading over the rules for classes you might be interested in. The new rule books (with the Dec. 1 changes) are out now. They've split the Rally rules off into a separate book, so if you think you might want to do AKC Rally at some point, save yourself the postage and order both at once. Or... Check with your trainer. A lot of training schools buy the rule books in bulk, and can save you a bit of money, both on the books and on postage. I bought mine at our training center.

Incidentally, speaking of Rally, you can have any (or all) Rally title without losing your Novice A status for obedience. The reverse is not true. Once you have your Novice A obedience title, you MUST show in Novice B in Rally.

As far as the difference between classes, Beginner Novice is BY FAR the easiest. There is no off leash heeling, sit for exam, a half-ring recall and no group stays. Instead, the dog sits or downs (judge's choice) in the middle of the ring, and the handler walks the perimeter and returns to the dog.

The "Pre" classes as we knew them are gone as of Dec. 1, replaced by the "preferred titling track". Pre-Novice and Preferred Novice are essentially the same. They are EXACTLY the same as Novice, with the exception that there are no group stays. The stay is the same as the BN stay.

There are also a bunch of "optional titling classes", but they are above Novice, so I won't confuse you with them now! 

Unless you have a chance to do LOTS of run-throughs and matches between now and then, so Ricky has PLENTY of experience working in other places, an you BOTH are used to "trial nerves", I'd suggest starting with BN.

When you finish that title (3 "Q's" are needed for each title) it sounds like Ricky might do fine in Novice A, based on your reports of his solid stays in company. (1minute sit stay, 3 minute down stay, handlers on the other side of the ring).

Kodi STILL can't do this as a result of getting jumped by a cattle dog in the past, so we are currently sticking with the preferred track. (His pre-Novice title is grandfathered into that program). I hope that someday he'll be able to do group stays, and we'll be able to do the "regular" classes, but I'm REALLY glad AKC has added these classes for small dogs and those who can't do stays for other reasons. IMO, group stays are a ridiculous risk for toy dogs sitting in a ring next to a Rottweiler with no handlers in sight. (For open)

Anyway, as you can see from the above, the rules get pretty complicated. So get a copy NOW, and start learning them. Just a few pages a night, and you'll be good to go. At least (for now, anyway!) you are only trialing with one organization, so you only need to learn one set of rules! :laugh:

Happy Thanksgiving, and don't let Ricky have TOO much turkey!!!


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