# House breaking vs litter box training in frigid weather - Update



## AK Havanese (Jul 9, 2020)

Well Frankie is now almost 13 weeks old (he came to us at 8 weeks) & I am battling the potty training issue. He is in his ex-pen with litter box & pellets when I can't watch him every minute and he rarely pees in the box and never outside of the box in the ex-pen. Most of the time he is in a gated off area in the kitchen with food, water, toys, crate & litter box (and us). He has ALWAYS pooped in the litter box (no accidents ever) and pees in the litter box probably 99% of the time (100% for the last week). When I let him out of confinement into the carpeted living room and have eyes on every minute to let him run back and forth or play with him, he pees with no prior warning AT ALL. I'm not sure how to teach him how not to do that since I don't know it has happened until after the fact since there is no warning and almost on the fly. I feel pretty lucky that he sleeps through the night for 8 - 9 hours so he can obviously hold it. But during the day he pees very often in the litter box. Sometimes 5+ times an hour. I am wondering if the litter box is just too easy for him during the day and he is not learning to hold it when he is awake. Occasionally I take him to the garage if my husband or I are working on a project and lay down a pee pad and he pees/poops on that. Also, I take him for daily walks and he will not pee outside. I was planning to train him to a specific spot outside come spring but thought I would work on it when we are outside but to no avail. But he will pee on the outside coir door mat - his breeder used the fake grass pee mats & I think he may confuse our mat with the fake grass mat. My husband thinks he may feel that our living room carpet resembles the fake grass (I hope he is not correct). I figure if he never comes out of his little jails he will never learn but I hate to have him pee on my carpet. Any ideas?

Also, he has been pretty quick to learn sit, stay, come, lay down (he will do ANYTHING for treats and doesn't just lay down but drops to the ground quickly). BUT if he knows I don't have a treat and I try to get him to come, he says sorry but not coming if there is nothing in it for me. Is this pretty normal or is he as defiant as he appears?

Not sure why the picture is sideways?


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

A 13-week old puppy is still an infant. If he is consistently using his litter box in a confined space, and 99% is pretty consistent, he is doing great! The litter box is NOT making it "too easy for him". He is pretty clearly proving to you that he is not READY to be free in a larger area, unless you are POSITIVE he is "empty". The fact that he can go longer when he is asleep overnight has NOTHING to do with his ability to go longer during the day. That is true for humans also. 

Don't worry about the peeing and pooping outdoors. That will come with time. It ALWAYS does. You do not need to train it. Just wait for it and praise it when it happens. You CAN work on it if you think you must, but you will get there just about as fast and with MUCH less frustration if you simply ignore it, and let it happen when he's ready. As far as working on having him potty in a particular PLACE outside, I GUESS you can train him to do that... I've never heard of anyone doing that, nor am I sure why you'd do that. First priority for me, BY FAR, would be a puppy who knows where to go appropriately INSIDE the house. focus on that for now. he's REALLY young.

He is WAY too young to be doing ANY training without treats. But make sure you are doing your training without the treats in your hand, so you are not LURING the behaviors, but rewarding them. If you are not using a clicker, you may want to learn about it. A clicker can help tremendously. Give the command ONE and ONLY once. Wait for him to respond. Click immediately, THEN get the cookie out of your pocket and give it to him. That way he understands that the treat is a reward for him completing the behavior, and you stop that chain of needing to be holding a treat in your hand to get any behavior at all. But don't even THINK of not giving him rewards for responding correctly for a long, LONG time yet. Remember, he is an INFANT!


----------



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

It seems counterintuitive, but I would spend time with him on the carpet, with him very close, not playing fetch where he’s running, but eating his meals and playing and practicing all of the skills he’s learned so quickly! A few times a day for just a few minutes at a time, right after you have seen him go potty, will set him up for success, because he’ll be too busy to pee! If he’s quick and tries to run off, set up the ex pen on the carpet so it’s just big enough for you, him, and his food bowl, or whatever you’re working on. 

Sometimes with the litter box it’s hard to know if he has just gone potty, or he might not empty completely. If you can teach him to go potty on command, it can be really useful in getting him to go potty in lots of situations, such as before getting in the car, and it can help him learn to go potty right away, which is great for when he eventually goes outside. I was able to tell my puppy to go potty twice, if he only peed a little, which was really useful, because he would only pee a tiny bit if he was excited for playtime or breakfast, lol! An easy way to start is by labeling it and praising when he goes potty in the litter box. That’s one way his constant peeing will be good- more opportunities to label it in a short time mean he’ll make the connection faster! Mine was about the same age yours is now when we brought him home and I couldn’t believe how fast he learned to “go potty.” Mine was also still peeing really frequently at 12 weeks. The first few weeks were the hardest to read, and then I could see he was learning. That window was the hardest, because it’s easy to second guess everything.

With regard to the training, he’s really not defiant. He sees the behavior as something to do for a treat, it doesn’t make sense to do it for you  I read a really great article on luring vs rewards and fading lures and specifically what to do in certain situations, but I can’t find it. I’ll keep looking. He wants to please you, so you might try praising really energetically with a treat, then start fading the treat while increasing the praise. Honestly, I find it really useful that mine will do anything for food, and I think some of that is shaped by lots of treats early on.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> It seems counterintuitive, but I would spend time with him on the carpet, with him very close, not playing fetch where he's running, but eating his meals and playing and practicing all of the skills he's learned so quickly! A few times a day for just a few minutes at a time, right after you have seen him go potty, will set him up for success, because he'll be too busy to pee! If he's quick and tries to run off, set up the ex pen on the carpet so it's just big enough for you, him, and his food bowl, or whatever you're working on.
> 
> Sometimes with the litter box it's hard to know if he has just gone potty, or he might not empty completely. If you can teach him to go potty on command, it can be really useful in getting him to go potty in lots of situations, such as before getting in the car, and it can help him learn to go potty right away, which is great for when he eventually goes outside. I was able to tell my puppy to go potty twice, if he only peed a little, which was really useful, because he would only pee a tiny bit if he was excited for playtime or breakfast, lol! An easy way to start is by labeling it and praising when he goes potty in the litter box. That's one way his constant peeing will be good- more opportunities to label it in a short time mean he'll make the connection faster! Mine was about the same age yours is now when we brought him home and I couldn't believe how fast he learned to "go potty." Mine was also still peeing really frequently at 12 weeks. The first few weeks were the hardest to read, and then I could see he was learning. That window was the hardest, because it's easy to second guess everything.
> 
> With regard to the training, he's really not defiant. He sees the behavior as something to do for a treat, it doesn't make sense to do it for you  I read a really great article on luring vs rewards and fading lures and specifically what to do in certain situations, but I can't find it. I'll keep looking. He wants to please you, so you might try praising really energetically with a treat, then start fading the treat while increasing the praise. Honestly, I find it really useful that mine will do anything for food, and I think some of that is shaped by lots of treats early on.


This is all great information EXCEPT it is WAY, WAY too early to be fading treats during training within the first year of training a puppy. Fade LURING, yes, for sure. Luring should only be done for the very first few repetitions. But REWARDING for behaviors should continue through fluency in your kitchen. And THEN you need to add distance, duration, and distractions. Only when you have the behavior at a consistent 90% WITH distance, duration, AND distractions... Can your dog sit, on command, on the other side of your yard, and stay there for 2 minutes while your kids bounce balls back and forth in front of him? Can he do it in the park? Can he do it at the beach? THAT is fluency! THEN you have a behavior that you can expect the dog to do with only occasional rewards just to remind him how much you appreciate him.


----------



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Oh I did train mine so he knows going out a specific door means “go potty” and he goes in a particular section of the yard. It’s like a 10x10 square though, not small like a litter box. It was easy to do because he learned to “go potty” on command.” I do kind of wish I had planned something other than grass, though. It makes any lawn damage more concentrated, although we really don’t have much. He also goes potty before we go on walks. Sometimes he goes potty again on walks, and he marks, but I wanted him to go potty right away, I didn’t want to have to take him on a walk just to get him to go. When spring comes around, the skills he’s learning and his body maturity will make it much easier, so I wouldn’t worry about it.


----------



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

krandall said:


> This is all great information EXCEPT it is WAY, WAY too early to be fading treats during training within the first year of training a puppy. Fade LURING, yes, for sure. Luring should only be done for the very first few repetitions. But REWARDING for behaviors should continue through fluency in your kitchen. And THEN you need to add distance, duration, and distractions. Only when you have the behavior at a consistent 90% WITH distance, duration, AND distractions... Can your dog sit, on command, on the other side of your yard, and stay there for 2 minutes while your kids bounce balls back and forth in front of him? Can he do it in the park? Can he do it at the beach? THAT is fluency! THEN you have a behavior that you can expect the dog to do with only occasional rewards just to remind him how much you appreciate him.


Yes I just thought about that clarification after I posted it and edited lures vs. rewards. It's something is basic on the surface but also really interesting and more complex the more I learn. It's something I'm working on. I also think it's not a critical mistake if a pet dog will only do something for a treat. It's better to to avoid it, but at least it's predictable, and you know what to do to get them to do it. If I had to choose between two training mistakes, I'd rather have a dog that only does something for a treat vs. a dog that only does something half of the time  I don't know if I'm saying this right, but what I mean is that any risk of too many treats is still a safer risk than using too few.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Oh I did train mine so he knows going out a specific door means "go potty" and he goes in a particular section of the yard. It's like a 10x10 square though, not small like a litter box. It was easy to do because he learned to "go potty" on command." I do kind of wish I had planned something other than grass, though. It makes any lawn damage more concentrated, although we really don't have much. He also goes potty before we go on walks. Sometimes he goes potty again on walks, and he marks, but I wanted him to go potty right away, I didn't want to have to take him on a walk just to get him to go. When spring comes around, the skills he's learning and his body maturity will make it much easier, so I wouldn't worry about it.


Yes, mine know the rule is they potty before getting in the car or going on a walk. I was NOT getting trapped into that problem of longer and longer walks just to get the dog to potty! So I guess, from THAT perspective, they WILL go in a "specific spot". But when I let them out into the fenced back yard, they go where they want. Typically, along the back boundary fence.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Yes I just thought about that clarification after I posted it and edited lures vs. rewards. It's something is basic on the surface but also really interesting and more complex the more I learn. It's something I'm working on. I also think it's not a critical mistake if a pet dog will only do something for a treat. It's better to to avoid it, but at least it's predictable, and you know what to do to get them to do it. If I had to choose between two training mistakes, I'd rather have a dog that only does something for a treat vs. a dog that only does something half of the time  I don't know if I'm saying this right, but what I mean is that any risk of too many treats is still a safer risk than using too few.


Absolutely! More training fails from people trying to fade treats too soon than too late. But MOSTLY people just don't understand HOW and WHY to use treats effectively. Kodi is 11 1/2 and still gets a LOT of treats in a training session. Does he get treats for setting up when I ask him to? Or sitting in the kitchen when I ask him to? No. Those are completely fluent, "known behaviors".

...Except

I am currently working on "sharpening up" Panda's verbal "drop" cue because I want to use that for her "drop on recall" exercise in Open Obedience. She does it well on a hand cue, but I want both options. (for this exercise, you leave the dog in a sit-stay, move to the other end of the room, call the dog toward you, then, on the judge's signal, and somewhere on the way back to you, you "drop" the dog. Then again on the judge's signal, you call them the rest of the way back) So I am using the incentive of competition from the other two to quicken Panda's response just to casual "drop" cues around the house. When they are all in the kitchen, if I suddenly say "Drop!", whoever hits the ground first gets the cookie! And they have to WAIT while I go get the cookie out of the cabinet. It USED to be that Kodi was always first. It didn't take long for the girls to realize that they weren't getting the cookies, and why. (They DO know what the cue means) They LOVE the game, and are now dropping so fast that I'm usually handing out THREE cookies because I can't TELL who hit the ground first!


----------



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

That sounds so fun!


----------



## AK Havanese (Jul 9, 2020)

Thanks to both of you - this is all really helpful information AND makes me feel that Frankie is pretty normal (now I need to work on me!). Like you, my husband keeps reminding me how young he is. I really need to work on the rewarding vs luring, I think I mostly lure. I have been using a clicker & that seems to be very helpful. 
- As for outdoor potty in a particular space (mine is also about 10'x10'), I thought I got the idea from this forum and seemed like a good one but maybe asking too much.
- I think he did so well with the litter box because I treated him each time BUT I quickly saw that you (Karen) were right that I was creating another problem and stopped but the good had been done & he quit peeing a teaspoon for a treat.
- I did teach him to "go potty" on command so that he will go before I crate him for the night.
- As for having him out on the carpet but not running a few times a day - when I let him out of the kitchen (which is a much bigger area than his ex-pen) onto the carpet, he runs back & forth from one end of the house to the other making it almost impossible for me to catch him. He is truly having a ball. Maybe just too much inside time since it is so cold right now. He loves his walk (with coat on) but when we return he wants back in.
- Makes it harder for me to remember that he is still a baby since he has grown so much - he is already a whopping 9lbs today at 13 weeks. I really hope that double at 16 weeks formula does not hold true as he will be huge for a Havanese. But adorable none the less.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

AK Havanese said:


> Thanks to both of you - this is all really helpful information AND makes me feel that Frankie is pretty normal (now I need to work on me!). Like you, my husband keeps reminding me how young he is. I really need to work on the rewarding vs luring, I think I mostly lure. I have been using a clicker & that seems to be very helpful.
> - As for outdoor potty in a particular space (mine is also about 10'x10'), I thought I got the idea from this forum and seemed like a good one but maybe asking too much.
> - I think he did so well with the litter box because I treated him each time BUT I quickly saw that you (Karen) were right that I was creating another problem and stopped but the good had been done & he quit peeing a teaspoon for a treat.


Ah yes! A LOT of them learn THAT trick! LOL! Time to fade THOSE treats! praise is enough for THAT behavior! LOL!

- I did teach him to "go potty" on command so that he will go before I crate him for the night.


AK Havanese said:


> - As for having him out on the carpet but not running a few times a day - when I let him out of the kitchen (which is a much bigger area than his ex-pen) onto the carpet, he runs back & forth from one end of the house to the other making it almost impossible for me to catch him.


If he is EVER peeing on the carpet, he should NOT be on the carpet AT ALL right now, or you are setting yourself up for a HUGE problem. There is absolutely NO WAY to completely get pee smell out of carpet so the DOG can't smell it. Everywhere that he has peed on the carpet, he will be tempted to pee again. You've GOT to keep him off of the carpet unless you can orchestrate it so that peeing is pretty much totally prevented. To stop that cycle, I'd start bringing him in there and FEEDING him right on top of places where you know he has peed in the past, but do it RIGHT after you know he has pottied. Feed him a little handful of kibble scattered there, while telling him what a good boy he is. Then take him back onto a hard surface.

Until he is absolutely reliable on a hard surface, like in your kitchen, KEEP HIM OFF the carpets!!!

As far as not being able to catch him is concerned... that's another bad habit you are letting him get into. He should NEVER learn that that is an option. If he is loose, he should be dragging a leash that you can step on so he can't get away. Learning that he can get away from you inside the house is the first step toward door-dashing and then you have a young dog who plays keep-away outdoors. A frustrating and TERRIFYING situation!!!



AK Havanese said:


> - Makes it harder for me to remember that he is still a baby since he has grown so much - he is already a whopping 9lbs today at 13 weeks. I really hope that double at 16 weeks formula does not hold true as he will be huge for a Havanese. But adorable none the less.


h my!!! He sounds like he's going to be HUGE!!! Kodi is on the large side... 11 1/2" (top of the standard) and 17 1/2 lbs. He was about 6 1/2 lbs at that age!!!


----------



## AK Havanese (Jul 9, 2020)

Thanks - helpful advice again. I was adamant that I would never let him pee on my carpet, but too late for that. My kitchen is hardwood so I covered half of it with inexpensive vinyl from Home Depot and he peed one time off the vinyl early on & I went out and bought more & covered my entire kitchen with vinyl! Hardwood always has some small cracks & I realized that pee is there FOREVER.

Please tell me you just mean HUGE for a Havanese (but still a small dog).


----------



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

AK Havanese said:


> - As for having him out on the carpet but not running a few times a day - when I let him out of the kitchen (which is a much bigger area than his ex-pen) onto the carpet, he runs back & forth from one end of the house to the other making it almost impossible for me to catch him. He is truly having a ball. Maybe just too much inside time since it is so cold right now. He loves his walk (with coat on) but when we return he wants back


The nighttime/playtime zoomies! A favorite game at our house. Once he's spent some time with you on the carpet in a very small space, you can try doing recall games with you and your husband a few feet apart on the carpet. Then he can run between you, back and forth, and it's a fun game, but it doesn't turn into keep away. You can also control how big the space between you is, so that at least one of you can reach him if he starts sniffing suspiciously  It will take time, but if you're really diligent now, he'll be able to run and play on the carpet later and it won't stress you out. We love to play in our long hallway, it's still Sundance's favorite place to play. He herds us all upstairs to the hall if he hasn't had playtime in a while! Sometimes we all sit in a line with our backs against the wall and stretch out our legs, and he runs back and forth jumping over each of our legs 

Also, don't feel like he "needs" that running time to get that energy out, and don't feel guilty about restricting him to small spaces. Your training time, playtime with you right there in his expen with him, even a little tug-of-war, are very stimulating to him. And tethering him to you so he can hang out while you're watching tv or reading or whatever is really helpful. Even walks aren't really necessary, although we took very short walks around our tiny block. Personally I think it's better to increase the frequency of those sessions rather than the intensity or the length of time, because that's what made such a difference for us. I learned quickly that no amount of exercise will really tire my Havanese. He will always keep up!

Your puppy is super cute!


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

AK Havanese said:


> Thanks - helpful advice again. I was adamant that I would never let him pee on my carpet, but too late for that. My kitchen is hardwood so I covered half of it with inexpensive vinyl from Home Depot and he peed one time off the vinyl early on & I went out and bought more & covered my entire kitchen with vinyl! Hardwood always has some small cracks & I realized that pee is there FOREVER.


If there hasn't been a LOT of it, you can mitigate it by cleaning it REALLY thoroughly with Anti-Icky-Poo (really THE best product for removing pee-smell!!!) AND THEn doing PURPOSEFUL re-training in those specific places by feeding him right over those spots and playing with him there, while at the same time making ABSOLUTELY SURE there are no more accidents.



AK Havanese said:


> Please tell me you just mean HUGE for a Havanese (but still a small dog).


LOL! Yes, He's not going to turn into a St. Bernard. Just probably a larger than average Havanese!


----------



## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

_Hmm ... I composed a long response to this thread last night, but it apparently didn't post. I'll post it now, even though your questions may have already been answered ..._

Sorry to hear the potty training is not going as well as you'd like.

I don't understand this sentence ...

_He is in his ex-pen with litter box & pellets when I can't watch him every minute and he rarely pees in the box and never outside of the box in the ex-pen._

... because later you say this ...

_He has ALWAYS pooped in the litter box (no accidents ever) and pees in the litter box probably 99% of the time (100% for the last week)._

OK, I just reread it, and I think you're saying there are two litter boxes, one in the pen and one in the small area, and he'll pee in the one in the small area but not in the one in the ex pen.

If this is the case, one could argue this is a good thing! He considers the ex pen to be his sleeping area, and he doesn't want to pee there. I think other forum members will weigh in, but since I'm trying to stay awake until midnight, I'll keep providing my guesses as to what's going on ... The fact that he makes it to the litter box in the small area also suggests that he gets it that that is where he is supposed to pee/poop. So that's good too!

When Shama was little, I read that you should only give a puppy "freedom" immediately after they potty since they're "empty." I remember thinking that Shama peed all the time and was never empty, so I didn't know when to give her "freedom." If you knew for sure Frankie was empty, that could be the brief moments when he is allowed on the carpet until he gets used to going outside to potty. Personally, I think I'd really limit time on the carpet until he becomes more reliable.

As far as peeing outside and on walks, I think maybe (when it's warm enough) you could stay out there long enough for him to pee and then give him a JACKPOT of praise and treats. You'll also want to have a "go potty" type phrase that he can eventually associate with peeing and getting lots of praise and treats. Our "pee" phrase is "Go to your place!" Our "poop" phrase is "Do your business!" The former definitely works. If she seems like she's daydreaming and sniffing around, we'll say, "Go to your place!" and she will frequently (not always, especially in a very interesting new place) squat and pee. I'm not sure she really understands the latter (but she does poop regularly!)

I really believe that Frankie will eventually prefer peeing outside to his indoor alternatives. BTW, holding it while sleeping is not comparable to holding it when awake. When he's moving around being stimulated by his surroundings, especially by people PLAYING with him, he'll have to pee a lot.

I wouldn't say he's defiant when he doesn't come to you for no treat. I'd say he's clever for knowing that you sometimes have treats and sometimes don't and that he only gets a treat if you actually have one so why should he bother doing what you want if he's not going to get a treat? The key is making coming to you when called ALWAYS VERY REWARDING. Heap praise upon him and have treats ready. When you can be outside or in the garage, call him to you, REWARD, REWARD, REWARD, then release for more play/exploration. Try to avoid calling him to you only to scoop him up and plunk him in his pen (which we've done a million times with Shama - do as I say and not as I do!) Avoid calling him to you only to start grooming him. I.e., avoid calling him for unpleasant things happening next. If you need him for something he might consider unpleasant, just go pick him up without calling him. (Also, don't wear out his name, because it will lose meaning. Either call him by saying anything in a happy tone - puppy, baby, sweetie, etc. - or only say his name ONCE. And don't ever say his name with a mean tone.)

Hopefully all that gives you some food for thought. To me, he sounds extremely bright. Sit, stay, come, lay down (quickly!) That's great!

Happy New Year!


----------



## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> He also goes potty before we go on walks. Sometimes he goes potty again on walks, and he marks, but I wanted him to go potty right away, I didn't want to have to take him on a walk just to get him to go.


This is a really good point, and I never thought about it before getting a dog. My sister sometimes has to walk her dog for a LONG time before it will potty. Shama doesn't get to go for the exciting walk until she has pottied in her back yard. That said, she still marks all along our walk (which seems funny to me since she's a girl - maybe one day, I'll try to figure out if that's common for female dogs), and she occasionally poops while we're out and about too. (Always have one or more poop bags with you!)


----------



## AK Havanese (Jul 9, 2020)

ShamaMama - thanks for the advice. Actually your post last night did show up but for some reason the thread I started is on the forum twice. Here and earlier with just yours and one other post. OK I see that you also notice this. Yes I have a litter box in the small ex-pen and one in the kitchen area - actually not a small area but one of us is always with him AND no carpet AND rare accidents. Although he just figured out how to escape out of the gate today - so a new challenge. Thank goodness we are retired and daughter grown. I can't imagine this AND a job AND children. 
How did you get my picture to orient correctly on your post?


----------



## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

AK Havanese said:


> How did you get my picture to orient correctly on your post?


I downloaded it, edited it (including rotating), and reposted it.

I think the strange rotating of photos is related to iPhones and iPads. I almost always post photos from my PC.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Here are a few tips from someone who went through this not long ago along with all the other good advice.

If possible, you ex-pen should have a door open into a room gated off so when the ex-pen door is open the puppy can roam in and out.

The room needs to be puppy proof meaning there should be no hidden places where he can play.

When the ex-pen door is open someone should have EYES on the puppy. When the puppy squats, Clap Your Hands to try and stop him. Pick him up and put him on the potty tray.

If you have having trouble with him going back into the ex-pen to Do His Job and he is peeing on the floor -,put a harness and leash on him when he's out and let him place on leash. Periodically, walk him back into the ex-pen , place him on the potty tray and say Do Your Job, Go Pee or whatever words you want to use.

Every time he pees or poops on the tray ... have Party and Give him a Treat. Everytime. For months your going to be excited he's peed and pooped on the potty tray.

After you are confident he's got the idea, you can take him into other rooms. Gate the room off and put a leash and harness on him and let him play on leash. Place a potty tray in that room and show him where it is by walking him to it. After a while take the leash off and have Eyes on Him at all times. If he goes to the potty tray on his own. Have a Party and Give him a Treat.

He's needs to be confined and trained in each room for a long while. Patti was 10 months before I took down gates and gave her freedom to three rooms. It was several more months before she had access to other parts of the house.

*TIME!!! AND PATIENCE!!!*

Sound like your dog is off to a good start.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> Here are a few tips from someone who went through this not long ago along with all the other good advice.
> 
> If possible, you ex-pen should have a door open into a room gated off so when the ex-pen door is open the puppy can roam in and out.
> 
> ...


If everyone would REALLY follow these recommendations to the LETTER, they would have less accidents and a potty trained, reliable dog faster. But people try to cut corners and give their puppy too much freedom too quickly... then they are crying here. No one has EVER said, "you know, I regret that I confined and supervised my puppy so long and so carefully."


----------



## AK Havanese (Jul 9, 2020)

Good information once again that I keep hearing over and over and am trying to follow as closely as possible. I always wished it was possible to have the ex-pen open up into the gated off kitchen area, but it is impossible with our layout. He likes the kitchen area and is ok with the ex-pen. But I am not happy with how little he sleeps during the day. I read that they need 18-20 hours a day & Frankie gets about 9 at night (in his travel type kennel in our bedroom which he likes at night) and VERY few brief cat naps during the day. So today and yesterday I put him in his blanket covered wire crate in the kitchen area and closed the door (which is usually open). He whimpered, cried, sometimes howled for over an hour even though he has been ok (but not great) in this kennel in the past. I let him out 3 times and took him to his litter box, just in case that was the issue, and put him back in the crate. He never did sleep and I finally let him out as soon as he was quiet for a few minutes. I did try to make the crate welcoming since I have had him with treats, toys, door open, etc. Also, with the crying I tried staying in the room and ignoring, leaving the room, lights on, lights off (it is dark here in the afternoon right now).
Any ideas?


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

At 13 weeks, he is still very young, and part of the problem may be that he is getting really wound up which is contributing to him NOT sleeping during the day. And again, with no real “routine”, he doesn’t want to “miss anything”. Back to YOU needing to be the one to enforce the structure on his time. For your benefit as well as his. He doesn’t have to sleep, he FORS have to stay in his pen or crate and “settle” at certain times for a certain AMOUNT of time each day. Try to make it AFTER he has had some good exercise, and then some quiet cuddle/stroking time (if he has such a thing) and then gently but firmly pop him in his pen. Giving him something to chew on at this point can be a big help to help him settle too. Then just walk away. Cover his crate if that helps. Otherwise simply ignore. Be consistent. The same time, same routine every day. Dogs, and especially puppies, THRIVE on routine! If you do it for two weeks and you are STILL getting nowhere, then you start tweaking things. But I really think you are changing to much. You are letting him call the shots, with the BEST of intentions, and all it’s doing is confusing him.


----------



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Mikki said:


> The room needs to be puppy proof meaning there should be no hidden places where he can play.





Mikki said:


> He's needs to be confined and trained in each room for a long while. Patti was 10 months before I took down gates and gave her freedom to three rooms. It was several more months before she had access to other parts of the house.


This is a great point I often forget. When it was time to start expanding his downstairs space, it was tricky to gate him off because we have a somewhat open floor plan and one of my sofas floats in the room. He peed behind it at least 3 times, not in the same spot, and I kept returning the expen to it's previous placement. Finally I moved the sofa back against the wall for a month or so. I hated how it looked, but it was so temporary, I forget about it now. He could handle a bigger space, he couldn't handle it including the hidden spot behind the sofa! When I moved the sofa back, I started playing with him behind the sofa in the evenings. After that I moved furniture and gates around a couple of times to systematically introduce him to different places. It was always temporary, and completely worth it. I happened to be working on several major remodeling projects during this time, room by room, so I was not only able to introduce him to different parts of my house in a really systematic way, I was really able to see him learning. I felt like I was internalizing/generalizing the training method, not just Sundance!


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

ShamaMama said:


> This is a really good point, and I never thought about it before getting a dog. My sister sometimes has to walk her dog for a LONG time before it will potty. Shama doesn't get to go for the exciting walk until she has pottied in her back yard. That said,* she still marks all along our walk (which seems funny to me since she's a girl - maybe one day, I'll try to figure out if that's common for female dogs), and she occasionally poops while we're out and about too.* (Always have one or more poop bags with you!)


Patti not only Marks but she often Lifts Her Little Leg to pee on a small patch of tall grass. It is absolutely hysterical!! Recently we started walking a new 3 mile path, with nose down, her little legs walking as fast she can go, Patti is either squating and peeing or lifting her leg about every 50 to 100 feet. She has to be running on empty after the first quarter mile. :grin2:


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> Patti not only Marks but she often Lifts Her Little Leg to pee on a small patch of tall grass. It is absolutely hysterical!! Recently we started walking a new 3 mile path, with nose down, her little legs walking as fast she can go, Patti is either squating and peeing or lifting her leg about every 50 to 100 feet. She has to be running on empty after the first quarter mile. :grin2:


People have this idea that boy dogs mark and girl dogs don't and it is TOTALLY false. It tends to be more obvious to the uninitiated when a boy dog marks. MOST girl dogs mark, at least sometimes. Both of my girls mark MUCH more tgan Kodi does. They both have to mark over where the other one has peed, every single time. So they follow each other around the yard until the squeeze out every.single.drop!


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

krandall said:


> People have this idea that boy dogs mark and girl dogs don't and it is TOTALLY false. It tends to be more obvious to the uninitiated when a boy dog marks. MOST girl dogs mark, at least sometimes. Both of my girls mark MUCH more tgan Kodi does. They both have to mark over where the other one has peed, every single time. So they follow each other around the yard until the squeeze out every.single.drop!


That is really funny. *LOL!!!* I've seen Patti do this occasionally with the Goodle-doodle, pee over Lucy's pee. :grin2:

And, OMGosh!! when Patti went into heat it was really bad. I think she was peeing over her own pee.


----------



## BPanzee (Dec 9, 2020)

This post is so helpful as I gave some of the same issues with Olive that Frankie seems to have. Including the peeing so often. I think she has quickly learned that the more often she pees in the litter box the more often she gets a celebration. And sometimes she also gets supervised time in the living room (which has carpert that looks way too much like the pellets). So thanks for the info. 
I’ve never done the litter box thing before and I’m curius that they just learn to hold it longer as they get older? Olive can hold it all night but she doesn’t have that need to hold it during the day. So this will naturally happen? She pees much more than my prior puppies but she isn’t even 3lbs so her bladder has to be tiny. 
Also from this post it seems that you all move the litter boxes around a lot in the beginning. How long until you felt you were able to trust the puppy to go into another room to pee? 
One more question I remove the used (powdered pellets) several times a day and the poo immediately. Is this right? And is completely 100% change of the pellets once a week okay (1 dog household)? 
Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## BPanzee (Dec 9, 2020)

This post is so helpful as I gave some of the same issues with Olive that Frankie seems to have. Including the peeing so often. I think she has quickly learned that the more often she pees in the litter box the more often she gets a celebration. And sometimes she also gets supervised time in the living room (which has carpert that looks way too much like the pellets). So thanks for the info. 
I’ve never done the litter box thing before and I’m curius that they just learn to hold it longer as they get older? Olive can hold it all night but she doesn’t have that need to hold it during the day. So this will naturally happen? She pees much more than my prior puppies but she isn’t even 3lbs so her bladder has to be tiny.
Also from this post it seems that you all move the litter boxes around a lot in the beginning. How long until you felt you were able to trust the puppy to go into another room to pee? 
I remove the used (powdered pellets) several times a day and the poo immediately. Is this right? And is completely 100% change of the pellets once a week okay (1 dog household)? 
Last question any way to keep them from trying to eat the pellets? She didn’t do that last week but seems to be starting on a teething thing (11 weeks old tomorrow).


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

BPanzee said:


> This post is so helpful as I gave some of the same issues with Olive that Frankie seems to have. Including the peeing so often. I think she has quickly learned that the more often she pees in the litter box the more often she gets a celebration. And sometimes she also gets supervised time in the living room (which has carpert that looks way too much like the pellets). So thanks for the info.
> I’ve never done the litter box thing before and I’m curius that they just learn to hold it longer as they get older? Olive can hold it all night but she doesn’t have that need to hold it during the day. So this will naturally happen? She pees much more than my prior puppies but she isn’t even 3lbs so her bladder has to be tiny.
> Also from this post it seems that you all move the litter boxes around a lot in the beginning. How long until you felt you were able to trust the puppy to go into another room to pee?
> I remove the used (powdered pellets) several times a day and the poo immediately. Is this right? And is completely 100% change of the pellets once a week okay (1 dog household)?
> Last question any way to keep them from trying to eat the pellets? She didn’t do that last week but seems to be starting on a teething thing (11 weeks old tomorrow).


Because a dog is small does not mean they pee more often. Tiny dogs have tiny bladders. Big dogs have big bladders. If a dog or person is up eating, drinking and moving around during the day all use their dedicated potties more often than when they're sleeping.  

You puppy is 3 lbs very young and tiny at 11 weeks. That's GREAT! Olive is using the potty tray. 

You don't have to clean out the powdered equine pellets every day. There's no odor so you can leave them in the tray until it needs to be clean. But, of course clean the tray anytime you want. There's no rule when to scoop out the dusty pellets or replace all the pellets.

When Patti was a puppy I changed out the pellets about once a week. I didn't scoop out the dusty pellets because I used a flat tray with a grate on top and it was easier to just change out all the pellets weekly.

Eating the pellets. Puppies like toddlers put everything in their mouth. After Olive has tried gnawing on a pellet I doubt she'll continue but if she does you'll need to get a tray that has a grate on the top. Tom King has lot of Havanese puppies and has said he's never had a problem with the puppies eating the pellets.

Olive is very young and you should put a potty tray close by, in an obvious place where she can see it, in the room she's out running around in for a long while. The room should be Puppy Proof meaning there should be no place she can hide. When she has an accident Clap Your Hands, pick her up and put her on the potty tray with a command to potty: Pee, Do You Job or whatever your command is.

You might consider buying a piece a linoleum and placing it over your carpet until Olive is fully housebroken. It's very difficult to get pee odor out of carpet and dogs like to pee on spots that smell like pee. 

Karen's test for Trustworthiness is 3-months. When Olive has not had an accident for three months you can trust her in the room where she has been trained to find her indoor potty. 

Olive should be confined and not allowed the freedom to run around the house. When you don't have Eyes on her she should be confined to her ex-pen.


----------

