# Announcement of Transfer of Ownership of the Forum



## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Dear Forum Friends, 

As you all have started to figure out, I have transferred the ownership of the Hav Forum. It was not an easy decision, but one I had to make. You all know I have not had time to manage it properly and it has cost me a good amount of money each month to keep it going. 

You will see that things are not going to be THAT different here. In my talks with Vertical Scope, they want the members to be happy and keep things running smoothly like they have been. 

THERE WILL BE NO PUPPY SALES ON THE FORUM!!!! Any talks of that has been pure rumor. I am still going to be here and be a part of the forum. 

I do hope before anyone gets upset or jumps to conclusions they will ask questions first before posting negative things. I am sure they will be quick to answer any quesitons. 

I love all you guys and your furry babies. Lets keep it a happy place. 

Ask me anything you want here.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

Hi everyone,

Yung here.. I will be the new community admin here. Firstly, I want to apologize for how you guys have had to "find out." It was not our intention to do this. 

I am here mainly as a tech help but I will also assist in the day to day moderation of this community if I'm needed. This isn't a one man show -- I will work with the mods together to continue keeping this place as the great and loving community it is.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Will they be charging for us to be members of this forum in the future?

Will they honor our requests to NOT use our pictures, video's and stories we want to post or have posted in the past?


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

I'd like to know the same thing about my pictures, captions, comments etc. If I don't get a definitive answer on this I will be leaving the Forum


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

KSC said:


> I'd like to know the same thing about my pictures, captions, comments etc. If I don't get a definitive answer on this I will be leaving the Forum


I will be leaving with you. This is unacceptable for me.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

As for the question of ownership of content, let me make one thing clear: WE DO NOT OWN your photos, videos, articles. You own them. They are yours. We do not (and have never) resold any content posted on our sites. From a logical standpoint, it's available for anyone to grab if you really think about it. 

We do reserve the right to remove or keep content that is posted on the site. 

I hope this clears up any confusion or worries. We have nothing to hide. We're here because we want to ensure that this community stays running and growing!


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

Kathy said:


> Will they be charging for us to be members of this forum in the future?
> 
> Will they honor our requests to NOT use our pictures, video's and stories we want to post or have posted in the past?


I have the same questions you do Kathy.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

Kathy said:


> Will they be charging for us to be members of this forum in the future?
> 
> Will they honor our requests to NOT use our pictures, video's and stories we want to post or have posted in the past?


In the communities we manage, we have acquired some sites where there were paid memberships already and we have introduced paid memberships on other sites we manage. However, any paid membership we introduce is 100% OPTIONAL. The paid memberships offer technical related perks in return (for example, more Private Messaging storage space).

This community will be 100% free to use.

As for not using your pictures, videos and stories, I'm not sure what you mean by this. We don't use your pictures, videos or stories for anything except what you see on this site.


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## hav2 (Feb 26, 2010)

Will they be charging us in the future to be members here??


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

thank you for your response - the language below conflicts with your statement and I find myself unable to trust a post vs. this legal language. I will not be granting permissions like this

"By displaying or posting content on the Forum, you hereby grant us a nonexclusive, royalty free, perpetual, global license to publish the content submitted by you to the Forum. You also grant us global nonexclusive adaptation and resale rights over any content and material submitted to vBulletin.com. These nonexclusive publishing license and resale/adaptation rights extend to any materials submitted "for publication" within vBulletin.com, including both message board postings and content submitted for uploading and subsequent publishing within non-message board portions of vBulletin.com. Neither we nor our staff or agents will be responsible for any misleading, false or otherwise injurious information and advice communicated on vBulletin.com or for any results obtained from the use of such information or advice. We will not be liable for any loss or damage suffered by a user through the user’s reliance on information and advice gained through user-generated content posted on vBulletin.com."


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

HavAddiction said:


> As for the question of ownership of content, let me make one thing clear: WE DO NOT OWN your photos, videos, articles. You own them. They are yours. We do not (and have never) resold any content posted on our sites. From a logical standpoint, it's available for anyone to grab if you really think about it.


Hi Yung,
Your response is appreciated, however, that is not what the TERMS OF USE state. I have enjoyed posting pictures on this forum in the past, but based on what I read, any pictures I post become the property of Vertical Scope and they own the copyrights then. Which doesn't sit well with me.


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## hav2 (Feb 26, 2010)

Kathy said:


> Hi Yung,
> Your response is appreciated, however, that is not what the TERMS OF USE state. I have enjoyed posting pictures on this forum in the past, but based on what I read, any pictures I post become the property of Vertical Scope and they own the copyrights then. Which doesn't sit well with me.


I have to say, that is what I read too.


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

And indeed me too - I just quoted that. My pictures won't be showing anymore and nothing before today better be used.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

HavAddiction said:


> In the communities we manage, we have acquired some sites where there were paid memberships already and we have introduced paid memberships on other sites we manage. However, any paid membership we introduce is 100% OPTIONAL. The paid memberships offer technical related perks in return (for example, more Private Messaging storage space).
> 
> This community will be 100% free to use.
> 
> As for not using your pictures, videos and stories, I'm not sure what you mean by this. We don't use your pictures, videos or stories for anything except what you see on this site.


HMMMMMMMMM, sounds like we all will have to pay to use this forum in the future folks. It use to be a fun, educational place to come. Not sure now it will remain that way.

I keep thinking of the old saying, "IF IT'S TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE, IT PROBABLY ISN'T TRUE".


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## mintchip (Apr 19, 2007)

Kathy said:


> Hi Yung,
> Your response is appreciated, however, that is not what the TERMS OF USE state. I have enjoyed posting pictures on this forum in the past, but based on what I read, any pictures I post become the property of Vertical Scope and they own the copyrights then. Which doesn't sit well with me.


Me either!


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

Kathy, thanks for your comment. I don't know how else to say it to reassure you guys. I ask that you keep an open mind and wait and see approach to this. We're not changing the way you do things here from what you were use to even yesterday. As some of you have already seen, we are a business and it would be suicide for us to engage in this kind of shady practice.

Like I said previously, everything you have posted here before and going forward is readily available to anyone with an internet connection. For free too.  This is not the business we are in.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

Kathy said:


> HMMMMMMMMM, sounds like we all will have to pay to use this forum in the future folks. It use to be a fun, educational place to come. Not sure now it will remain that way.
> 
> I keep thinking of the old saying, "IF IT'S TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE, IT PROBABLY ISN'T TRUE".


Kathy, I said already that this site will be 100% free to use. That will not change. None of the sites we manage require a user to pay to access it.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

HavAddiction said:


> Kathy, thanks for your comment. I don't know how else to say it to reassure you guys.


You could start by answering ALL of our questions we have asked in this thread. Have you read your own TERMS OF USE?


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Hey guys, the site is going to be free. Lets just give them a CHANCE, more than a day to see how things run. You will be surprised. It will be nice to have people moderate it and take care of things as they should.


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## jetsetgo! (Aug 3, 2010)

One thing I can recommend to those who may be worried about their images is to watermark them. On another forum where I mod, which deals in designer fashion accessories, we always do this as our pictures were often stolen and used one eBay and the like without our permission. It does not stop people from reposting them, but they are somewhat less attractive to reuse.

example attached.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

Basically what the Terms of Services means in Human speak (not lawyer) is that you are granting us permission to post the images... and that you still hold the copyright. By granting us a license, it's allowing us to protect your content as we have the legal backing to go after anyone should someone actually take them.

It's a very standard TOS. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's a default TOS that comes with the forum software and we've only changed the entity name obviously.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

What is going to be happening with advertisement? This forum is all about education and I see other sites you run use google ads and the sponsored links in between are breeders.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

We can re write the TOS to make things more clear but for obvious reasons at this moment (the most being that it's 10pm where I am at), it's not going to take place tonight. Sorry.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Hi Yung, As you can tell we are all very passionate about the community Melissa created. In fact, I remember when you could reply to everyone who posted in response in mere minutes. It is this honesty and passion that has made the forum grow to the point where it was valuable to Vertical Scope. I agree that with Kathy that your posts contradict what is stated in the terms of use. We all know we post at our own risk, as many of us have had pictures stolen by questionable sites. But that is different than handing over ownership merely by being a member. 

As a gesture of good faith could you and Vertical Scope delete all content on this site posted prior to today? It would be sad, as there is some valuable information contained in these threads, but at least, that way, going forward, we would all post with the terms of use in mind and post accordingly.


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## pacehavi (Oct 20, 2008)

Okay, along the lines of the questions posted above: if I post a photo and the forum owners want to use the photo in promotional materials or in a for-profit calendar would you need to ask permission for the use? It is in fact (I think maybe someone can verify) illegal to take a photo from the internet and use it without permission. So legally I want to know can you use our photos without first asking our permission. Not will you, but legally can you?


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

I agree with Yung, I am pretty sure the old terms said the same thing.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

ama0722 said:


> What is going to be happening with advertisement? This forum is all about education and I see other sites you run use google ads and the sponsored links in between are breeders.


Yes we will be using Google ads in addition to vendors we can bring on board. We are very sensitive to what ads appear in the community and we fight dilligently to block out BYBs and Puppy Mills. Some do sneak by but when they do, all we need is a link to filter them out of the ad network.


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

How about that Obama????

Just kidding.


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## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

I am a long time member to the forum, that visits infrequently now. I had not heard the rumors so I had not formed an opinion. 

Melissa, I want to thank you for the valuable service you offered me and others who were new to the Hav family.

Kathy and others, I totally understand where you are coming from. But the posts and disclaimer appear to be different. Perhaps we can post without pictures to try it out. I know that if I am asked for money to post on the forum, it will not occur. I am not a breeder or an expert, but I feel I have provided good information and support to other Hav owners. 

For my many friends that I have met here, I am grateful to Melissa. Brutus and Roxie are grateful for their friends as well (SF area folks, you know who I mean.)


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

pacehavi said:


> Okay, along the lines of the questions posted above: if I post a photo and the forum owners want to use the photo in promotional materials or in a for-profit calendar would you need to ask permission for the use? It is in fact (I think maybe someone can verify) illegal to take a photo from the internet and use it without permission. So legally I want to know can you use our photos without first asking our permission. Not will you, but legally can you?


Honestly, I'm not sure about this. Let me check with my bosses and I'll get back to you on this.

What I can say is that we don't engage in this kind of practice.

Everyone, I know you have no reason to believe this but I'm going to say it anyway..we're not a fly-by night mickey mouse operation. It would be suicide and stupid for us to engage in sneaky deeky things... again, allow us the time to prove us right on this one.


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

I would be devastated if they deleted all prior information. There is so much valuable information here. Think of all the new owners who come here and get help based on old threads. I think yall should give them a chance to see what happens and see where they take the Terms of Use.

Its evening and nothing can be done until tomorrow.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

HavAddiction said:


> Yes we will be using Google ads in addition to vendors we can bring on board. We are very sensitive to what ads appear in the community and we fight dilligently to block out BYBs and Puppy Mills. Some do sneak by but when they do, all we need is a link to filter them out of the ad network.


Just to be more clear, there will be advertisement links of breeders (even what you would consider non BYB or mills) advertising on the forum?


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

ama0722 said:


> Just to be more clear, there will be advertisement links of breeders (even what you would consider non BYB or mills) advertising on the forum?


We don't allow breeders to advertise but by using Google, we can't possibly stop every breeder or byb (especially those who mask themselves from being one). We do our best to minimize this (such as using image ads only because they are more expensive to use as an ad). If one does get by, we will filter it out once a link is provided to us.


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## hav2 (Feb 26, 2010)

Melissa~ I don't know you personally, but I thank you for creating this site. Will you remain a member here? and what made you comfortable enough to choose this company? just curious


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## mintchip (Apr 19, 2007)

Cheryl said:


> I am a long time member to the forum, that visits infrequently now. I had not heard the rumors so I had not formed an opinion.
> 
> *Melissa, I want to thank you for the valuable service you offered me and others who were new to the Hav family.
> 
> ...


Just a quick post (I'm at a meeting but had to add this) I agree with you Cheryl. We posted the information to help benefit others and the wonderful havanese breed.
The photos however are a different story.


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

I agree with Melissa that we shouldn't be too hasty in deleting all the old threads that are so valuable. Let's wait and see, guys!


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

We don't own your photos.. you guys do. We won't use them for any promotional purposes ever (as we don't have promotional material) and if we do use them (for example, maybe a banner design contest), we will ask you for your permission first.

Your photos face the same exposure today as they did yesterday. If you weren't worried about them yesterday, you shouldn't be worried about them today (that is unless you're finding out for the first time that anyone with an internet connection can have access to anything posted on this site).


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

HavAddiction said:


> We don't allow breeders to advertise but by using Google, we can't possibly stop every breeder or byb (especially those who mask themselves from being one). We do our best to minimize this (such as using image ads only because they are more expensive to use as an ad). If one does get by, we will filter it out once a link is provided to us.


Other than using image only ads, I see on some of the other pet forums that verticalscope owns currently, there are advertisements of puppies between individual posts. The two I clicked on I would judge as backyard breeders. I see no health testing or any information to the contrary on their site. Are you able to tell google which types of advertisements are "okay"? Judging by some other dog sites, google decides the advertisement.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

ama0722 said:


> Other than using image only ads, I see on some of the other pet forums that verticalscope owns currently, there are advertisements of puppies between individual posts. The two I clicked on I would judge as backyard breeders. I see no health testing or any information to the contrary on their site. Are you able to tell google which types of advertisements are "okay"? Judging by some other dog sites, google decides the advertisement.


Thanks for your feedback. On all the communities we manage, we work very closely with the community to filter out ads that are undesirable on the site. I can't speak for other sites but by the sounds of it, you guys will be keeping me on my toes to getting ads blocked if they are counter to the values of this site.


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## hav2 (Feb 26, 2010)

I don't think any of us are trying to be argumentative, I just think that the way the terms read, it sounds as if everything we have ever written or will write in the future, any photos from past or future are now owned by a company. I think that came as a shock to a lot of us. As far as people having access to the internet and stealing our content for their own personal uses, it's different having the new owner of the forum come in and, as we read it, say "we own you now"


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## Janizona (Oct 17, 2006)

HavAddiction said:


> e.
> 
> I hope this clears up any confusion or worries. We have nothing to hide. We're here because we want to ensure that this community stays running and growing!


Why? Who are you and what is in this for you?


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

hav2 said:


> I don't think any of us are trying to be argumentative, I just think that the way the terms read, it sounds as if everything we have ever written or will write in the future, any photos from past or future are now owned by a company. I think that came as a shock to a lot of us. As far as people having access to the internet and stealing our content for their own personal uses, it's different having the new owner of the forum come in and, as we read it, say "we own you now"


Fair enough. As I said, it's past 10pm now. I will make sure we get something rewritten to the satisfaction of the community tomorrow. It's past my bedtime everyone. It was good meeting all of you. No hard feelings. I will be back at 830ish tomorrow morning. Talk to you then. You all have beautiful dogs. I don't own a Havanese but I do have a Choco Lab named Joy. She's with my mom at the moment because my wife and I cannot take care of her full time and we're moving into a condo soon. But she's only minutes away.

Good night everyone.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

I suppose Yung what I am most uncomfortable with is you are saying something very different from the way the TERMS OF USE reads. I appreciate you posting on here and trying to help us all better understand what is happening. Most of us are very passionate about the Havanese breed and want to continue to share information, share stories, educate, show off our dogs and laugh and cry together. Until the TERMS OF USE are changed, I won't be posting pictures, video's, etc of my dogs. It is just too risky.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

hav2 said:


> I don't think any of us are trying to be argumentative, I just think that the way the terms read, it sounds as if everything we have ever written or will write in the future, any photos from past or future are now owned by a company. I think that came as a shock to a lot of us. As far as people having access to the internet and stealing our content for their own personal uses, it's different having the new owner of the forum come in and, as we read it, say "we own you now"


Everything we posted before was owned by Melissa, whether she knew it or not. This is a pretty normal characteristic of online forums.

I agree with the concerns about photos, and I am OK with them being used as long as we are contacted and agree to the use. However, as the Terms of Service are written now, they do not express this intent. Yung, maybe we can have that written in?

Personally, I think this could be a great change for HF. Obviously Melissa has done a wonderful thing in creating and running this forum, but it's natural that as the forum grows the management of the forum needs to grow, too! Thank you Melissa for all your hard work, and welcome Yung and Vertical Scope  I hope that this will be a positive change for all involved!


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

Kathy said:


> I suppose Yung what I am most uncomfortable with is you are saying something very different from the way the TERMS OF USE reads. I appreciate you posting on here and trying to help us all better understand what is happening. Most of us are very passionate about the Havanese breed and want to continue to share information, share stories, educate, show off our dogs and laugh and cry together. Until the TERMS OF USE are changed, I won't be posting pictures, video's, etc of my dogs. It is just too risky.


Kathy, what you could always do in the meantime is post links to the videos and photos on other sites, like youtube or whatever photo site you might use.

For those of you who seem to think the TOS are odd, here is a portion of the Terms of Service from YouTube:



YouTube said:


> *6. Your Content and Conduct*
> 3. For clarity, you retain all of your ownership rights in your Content. However, by submitting Content to YouTube, you hereby grant YouTube a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, sublicenseable and transferable license to use, reproduce, distribute, prepare derivative works of, display, and perform the Content in connection with the Service and YouTube's (and its successors' and affiliates') business, including without limitation for promoting and redistributing part or all of the Service (and derivative works thereof) in any media formats and through any media channels. You also hereby grant each user of the Service a non-exclusive license to access your Content through the Service, and to use, reproduce, distribute, display and perform such Content as permitted through the functionality of the Service and under these Terms of Service. The above licenses granted by you in video Content you submit to the Service terminate within a commercially reasonable time after you remove or delete your videos from the Service. You understand and agree, however, that YouTube may retain, but not display, distribute, or perform, server copies of your videos that have been removed or deleted. The above licenses granted by you in user comments you submit are perpetual and irrevocable.


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## j.j.'s mom (Aug 16, 2009)

Janizona said:


> Why? Who are you and what is in this for you?


OMG..... you read my mind.. word for word!!!
marcia


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

Janizona said:


> Why? Who are you and what is in this for you?


They're a business. They make money off the ads that will be displayed on the forum.


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## hav2 (Feb 26, 2010)

galaxie said:


> Everything we posted before was owned by Melissa, whether she knew it or not. This is a pretty normal characteristic of online forums.
> 
> I agree with the concerns about photos, and I am OK with them being used as long as we are contacted and agree to the use. However, as the Terms of Service are written now, they do not express this intent. Yung, maybe we can have that written in?
> 
> Personally, I think this could be a great change for HF. Obviously Melissa has done a wonderful thing in creating and running this forum, but it's natural that as the forum grows the management of the forum needs to grow, too! Thank you Melissa for all your hard work, and welcome Yung and Vertical Scope  I hope that this will be a positive change for all involved!


I agree that it is normal for the forum owner to have ownership of the forum content. I think that most of the forum members knew that it was owned by 1 person, that person being Melissa, and they totally trusted her and it was no big deal. Point being they knew her. We don't know this company.

That being said, I too hope that this is a great change for the forum. I think it's going to take some time to get used to the ideal. I also would like something written in the terms that says they have to get permission to use any of our content for their purposes.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

^ It's not really for "their" purposes entirely. They would likely use some photos or videos to advertise for the forum, to get more members to join. Isn't that what all of us are always trying to do? Whenever we meet Hav owners at the park, dog shows, pet store, vet, out on walks, etc. most of us tell them about the forum and encourage them to join. Now pictures of our babies may help other Hav owners find us online...What I disagree with is the RESALE portion of the TOS and I would like to see that taken out. I don't mind if my content is used to attract new users, but I certainly mind if my videos and photos are sold without my consent (and me getting paaaaaid, baby!)


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Like Bob Dylan said. ... "The times they are a changin. " Let's give these folks a chance . They'll answer more of our concerns tomorrow. Maybe we could ask to have our own representative /moderator. ?


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

galaxie said:


> ^ I don't mind if my content is used to attract new users, but I certainly mind if my videos and photos are sold without my consent (and me getting paaaaaid, baby!)


Well, I sure mind. As a breeder I have a huge problem with pictures of puppies I bred being used without my permission.


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## hav2 (Feb 26, 2010)

I think it's great to have "fresh" members all the time. I think when we were doing our word of mouth advertising it was more personal. I think that other people might be worried that the "personal" feeling you get by joining the forum might be jeopardized with all the advertising they do these days.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

^ Well, they say they will ask our permission, and they will put that in the terms of use. I'll take them on their word until they prove me wrong!


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## hav2 (Feb 26, 2010)

Whew ladies, this is a "HOT" thread!!:biggrin1: just tryin to lighten it up a little


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## kudo2u (Mar 7, 2009)

I don't normally "speak my mind" but I really felt the need to say something here. I do understand everyone's concern. I would hate to see photos of my now deceased Lily posted somewhere without my knowledge. Or my personal experience with a problem with Soleil being construed as "advice" to another. I get that.

What I don't get is the immediate and deep-rooted distrust that has come to light in a rather (in my opinion) accusatory and angry manner.

What happened to innocent until proven guilty?

What about getting to know someone (or a company) before jumping to conclusions?

How terrible would it be to delete all previous content?!? Just because someone else "owns" the forum now? I thought the whole point of this forum was to create a community, to help existing and hopeful hav owners, and to share knowledge about this amazing breed.

So you want to destroy all that has been created, just so someone else can't have it? Doesn't that go against the whole point of the forum?

I've always heard "people fear that which they do not understand" and maybe I've lived a sheltered live, but oh. my. gosh. I would not have expected such a vehement reaction, especially from a group that is usually so open and welcoming.

If you don't agree with me, that's fine. If you think I'm way off base, that's fine, too. But for goodness sake, don't throw the baby out with the bath water! Give these people a chance.

It has been said that people trust Melissa. So trust her one more time. Trust that she didn't just see dollar signs and sell her creation, her hard work and dedication, to some schmuck who offered her a gold rolex from inside a trenchcoat. Trust that she had the best in mind for the future of the forum, for all of us, for the Havanese breed.

Ask questions. Suggest changes. But have a little patience and understanding while the transition occurs. Give it at least a day or two before you pass judgment.


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## hav2 (Feb 26, 2010)

I am definitely against deleting all the previous content. It's way too valuable, even to the older forum members who need to go back and look at something.


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## LuvCicero (Mar 31, 2008)

I think we need to have a wait and see attitude. I'm sure some things will change, but hopefully we will all still get the info and support that we have in the past.

As I tell my grand sons that use Facebook - your comments and pictures can be copied and saved by anyone and even if you delete them....FB still has them.


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## Janizona (Oct 17, 2006)

I spoke with Melissa on the phone tonight and she's really hoping everyone won't jump ship right away. She is confident that everyone (well, most everyone) will be happy with the new forum owners if given the chance. 

I agree the language of terms needs to be changed. I did look around on vbulletin sites and didn't find that language. I hope to see that changed very soon. In the meantime, I'd suggest holding off on posting photos.

Can we all agree to wait a month and see what is going to happen?? We can discuss this again at that time and if things are not satisfactory to the general membership, I'm willing to look into starting a new forum. Just remember, you will be leaving ALL the information behind that everyone has worked so hard to put together. It will be a blank slate in a new forum.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I want to know how we can delete our own personal photos from the Gallery section of the site. I used to have to ask Melissa directly when I wanted something deleted (when I first realized that other folks were stealing images) and she did that back then. I have been careful not to post my own photos again in the gallery since we can't delete them ourselves, but for my friends and fellow Hav owners that have posted there, how can they get their photos deleted?

I don't think most of us realized you can't even delete your own photos when we first posted them. This is the only site I've ever visited where I can delete some of my own info (posts) but not images in the gallery.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Kudo2u,

I think the main issue with people being upset is in regards to the Google ads that VerticalScope runs on their forums. I know they say they will report the suspect ad to Google and get it removed from the rotation. But that will take time, and as soon as the 'bad' ad is removed, another one will appear. Over and over and over.

For instance, look at this forum that VS recently took over:
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=82617
They have the google ads running on top, you can scroll through the ads with the arrows. I see plenty of byb's selling their 'product'. If you go to the thread with the VS takeover announcement (like this one) 
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=64917
you can see all the users are passionate like us and a freaking out over this. Well that was many months ago.. and the ads are still present!

It's just the business model Google has setup. Yes, it's a money making machine!
So that i suspect is the anger being displayed by some members. I mean, can you imagine seeing a Google ad for Jeff's Havanese popping up? What would you all think of that? haha

Just my 2.5 cents!
Ryan


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

Ryan,

Jeff's Havanese...are you kidding? You know it would be Jeff's HSDs.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Dawna, Is Jeff dabbling in HSD's now? Blue ones? lol (ok, I'm going to doggy hell)

Ryan


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

Jeff's prolly selling emu's by now


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## Janizona (Oct 17, 2006)

Beamer said:


> Kudo2u,
> 
> I think the main issue with people being upset is in regards to the Google ads that VerticalScope runs on their forums. I know they say they will report the suspect ad to Google and get it removed from the rotation. But that will take time, and as soon as the 'bad' ad is removed, another one will appear. Over and over and over.
> 
> ...


Just to be clear, I agree. But we as a group have to understand that IF we decided to start a new forum, we are leaving the many years of posts behind. I think once we start seeing the changes we can decide if its worth it to leave. If that is the decision, so be it. It won't hurt (well maybe it will) to see what happens before jumping ship. If we find its sinking then we can bail!


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## mugsy & me (Feb 3, 2008)

change scares people
it's human nature

any lawyers in the group that have read the tos? i doubt it...

don't let fear guide you or anger that the community is changing, maybe give it some time and see if you can live with the changes.
if you cannot there are alternatives, some have already been mentioned.

i am a regular reader but infrequent poster here so the change is not as impactful to me as they may be to others, but i hope we can all show some patience and actually see what transpires.

for me, this site has been wonderful as a 2 hav owner, i have learned much and my dogs have been the beneficiaries.


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

I am pretty sure that Poodle Forum that I frequent is also run by Vertical Scope, as i recognize Yung. Here's the main administrator there as well. Here's the link to the site so you can see what it looks like: www.poodleforum.com

That forum is also free, but you can upgrade to paid membership if you choose. I never considered belonging to a "paid" forum so checked out the member lists. It looks like I am one of the few free members on that site....crazy!!!!


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

HavAddiction 
Administrator

:boink: Shouldn't you be HAV-NOT? ound: I see you posted you didn't even own a havanese...just saying......ound:


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

HavAddiction said:


> In the communities we manage, we have acquired some sites where there were paid memberships already and we have introduced paid memberships on other sites we manage. However, any paid membership we introduce is 100% OPTIONAL. The paid memberships offer technical related perks in return (for example, more Private Messaging storage space).
> 
> This community will be 100% free to use.
> 
> As for not using your pictures, videos and stories, I'm not sure what you mean by this. We don't use your pictures, videos or stories for anything except what you see on this site.


From what I see on the other sites you own a paid membership also makes it so you see less adds. That sounds great except I will miss out on all the byb or puppy mill adds that new "free" members will see...


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## lcy_pt (Aug 17, 2007)

Havtahava said:


> I want to know how we can delete our own personal photos from the Gallery section of the site. I used to have to ask Melissa directly when I wanted something deleted (when I first realized that other folks were stealing images) and she did that back then. I have been careful not to post my own photos again in the gallery since we can't delete them ourselves, but for my friends and fellow Hav owners that have posted there, how can they get their photos deleted?
> 
> I don't think most of us realized you can't even delete your own photos when we first posted them. This is the only site I've ever visited where I can delete some of my own info (posts) but not images in the gallery.


Thanks for pointing this out, Kimberly. I too want to know how I can remove my pictures from the Gallery. My boys are being held hostage!!!

New Administrators.....I formally request that you remove my boys pictures from the Gallery.


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## iluvhavs (Jul 21, 2008)

I say give them a chance and PLEASE don't delete previous posts and photots! That's what makes this forum so great...the wealth of knowledge on those old threads.

Sounds like any other "free forum" out there. Unless the owner or members pay, there has to be ads to pay for the work involved in keeping the site up. I ran a forum on YUKU. You could be a free member or pay a fee to NOT have to see ads. I frequently paid a fee myself to keep the board ad free.

If there are offensive posts you'd like the new mod to remove, or entire threads, I'm sure that is possible. I think the original poster themselves can go back and delete what they posted.


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## Judy -- Toby & Jaime's mo (Apr 21, 2007)

*WAIT & SEE*

The passion for our Havs has definately encompassed this Forum. I have only been an active member for a short time and it is great to share with other crazy HAV people.

I shall wait and see how the Forum evolves and I hope others do the same. Maybe I will be able to actually change my info (I tried unsuccessfully before). Under the new owners, please let us know how to change our info.

Toby died earlier this year and we just adopted another.

Maybe the administrator will soon get addicted to Havanese and want one for himself!

Patience to all,

Judy
Mom to Jaime, Dori, and Chloe


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## Gizmo'sMom (Jul 9, 2010)

I am no expert but as a Graphic Designer / Frequent Internet User this TOS sounds like most others to me. I have started to read several on many different sites and when you read them it sounds like you are giving them your first born and selling your soul at the same time. It's a Cover Your *** statement about the photos / information 99% of the time. At the very most the only thing I could see them MAYBE do is use info/photos to get people on to the forums. Honestly the BYBs/Mills don't play by the rules and if they wanted to use one of the photos in something they would just come and take it....

Google has the following up:
11.1 You retain copyright and any other rights you already hold in Content which you submit, post or display on or through, the Services. By submitting, posting or displaying the content you give Google a perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, royalty-free, and non-exclusive license to reproduce, adapt, modify, translate, publish, publicly perform, publicly display and distribute any Content which you submit, post or display on or through, the Services. This license is for the sole purpose of enabling Google to display, distribute and promote the Services and may be revoked for certain Services as defined in the Additional Terms of those Services.

11.2 You agree that this license includes a right for Google to make such Content available to other companies, organizations or individuals with whom Google has relationships for the provision of syndicated services, and to use such Content in connection with the provision of those services.

11.3 You understand that Google, in performing the required technical steps to provide the Services to our users, may (a) transmit or distribute your Content over various public networks and in various media; and (b) make such changes to your Content as are necessary to conform and adapt that Content to the technical requirements of connecting networks, devices, services or media. You agree that this license shall permit Google to take these actions.

[/B]

It's the same in most places and I've written photo release forms for my current job and they always sound worse then what the company really intends to do. Obviously it is great if they will change it to say we own the photos and they need permission...but if they won't/can't it is that way in most places, and I wouldn't be TOO worried.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

I was sure I posted to this thread, but with so many threads on this, I must be mixed up. Chalk it up to over 16 hours of travel yesterday!! 

I agree about waiting to see how this works out. This forum has been a huge part of my life over the past 4.5 years and I've invested a lot of time learning, helping, sharing and promoting it that I'm not ready to call it quits yet. 

I used to be addicted to making signature tags at Delphi forums and they also offered a free service, but with ads cropping up in between threads and posts. It is pretty common and we've been quite spoiled with Melissa making sure that doesn't happen here. After a month of free Delphi, I opted to pay a very small sum (about $25/year) and never saw ads again! Having several options of membership to any online community is quite common. I'm hoping that any changes that do occur are for the better and that our group here deserves to be heard and understood by the new owners.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

Thank you for your welcome. We are going to do our best to make sure this community continues to grow and be the best resource for all things Havs on the internet.

I will have the TOS rewritten today.



galaxie said:


> Everything we posted before was owned by Melissa, whether she knew it or not. This is a pretty normal characteristic of online forums.
> 
> I agree with the concerns about photos, and I am OK with them being used as long as we are contacted and agree to the use. However, as the Terms of Service are written now, they do not express this intent. Yung, maybe we can have that written in?
> 
> Personally, I think this could be a great change for HF. Obviously Melissa has done a wonderful thing in creating and running this forum, but it's natural that as the forum grows the management of the forum needs to grow, too! Thank you Melissa for all your hard work, and welcome Yung and Vertical Scope  I hope that this will be a positive change for all involved!


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## Gizmo'sMom (Jul 9, 2010)

WOW on a major photo site that tecnically doesn't "post" images for all to see (as in you log and upload and then pay to have printed, and are the only one who can access) they have:

You grant to the Web Site and its service providers and licensees a non-exclusive, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, unrestricted, world-wide right and license to access, use, copy, reproduce, distribute, transmit, display, perform, communicate to the public, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, and otherwise use such Materials (in whole or in part) in connection with the Service, using any form, media or technology now known or later developed, without providing compensation to you or any other person, without any liability to you or any other person, and free from any obligation of confidence or other duties on the part of the Web Site or its service providers; 

You grant to all members and other Service users permission to access, view, store, copy, reproduce, distribute, transmit, display, perform, and reproduce such Materials (in whole or in part) in any of the ways facilitated or provided by the Service;

Trust me it's all over....please don't quit or remove everything because of it


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

davetgabby said:


> Like Bob Dylan said. ... "The times they are a changin. " Let's give these folks a chance . They'll answer more of our concerns tomorrow. Maybe we could ask to have our own representative /moderator. ?


Yes we will be asking for help from the community to become moderators if it is needed here. This isn't our show -- it's a team effort and more importantly, a community effort.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

kudo2u said:


> I don't normally "speak my mind" but I really felt the need to say something here. I do understand everyone's concern. I would hate to see photos of my now deceased Lily posted somewhere without my knowledge. Or my personal experience with a problem with Soleil being construed as "advice" to another. I get that.
> 
> What I don't get is the immediate and deep-rooted distrust that has come to light in a rather (in my opinion) accusatory and angry manner.
> 
> ...


:kiss::grouphug::amen:


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

Havtahava said:


> I want to know how we can delete our own personal photos from the Gallery section of the site. I used to have to ask Melissa directly when I wanted something deleted (when I first realized that other folks were stealing images) and she did that back then. I have been careful not to post my own photos again in the gallery since we can't delete them ourselves, but for my friends and fellow Hav owners that have posted there, how can they get their photos deleted?
> 
> I don't think most of us realized you can't even delete your own photos when we first posted them. This is the only site I've ever visited where I can delete some of my own info (posts) but not images in the gallery.


I believe the vBulletin gallery only allows admins and mods to delete images from the gallery. I will investigate this. Again, I ask that everyone please don't be in a rush to want to delete everything. Nothing has changed in terms of who owns what. We're not going to use your material for our gains and if we ever needed/wanted to, you will know first. I will have this written today.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Yung, thank you for offering to work with TOS and to get us the answers you don't have readily available. You are right that this group will be good at filtering puppy mills and BYB and keep you on your toes. 

Although I feel it is important to state our desires. I do think we should give VS a chance. Most likely they will make most of their money by selling adds for things we already use (and post about-- you know how adds pop up on the side of FB that seem to have you in mind) ...like IOD, Natures Variety, CC combs and brushes, apple cider vinegar LOL. And VS may be in a position with all their sites to make the advertisers offer us deals exclusive to our sight. I say protect our interests (so keep pasting and posting on the other thread) but lets see what happens. I would certainly check out a new forum if one were to be created by members, but we all have such history here, wouldn't it be nice if the changes are only for the best.

ps Yung. pictures go a long way with us...perhaps posting a picture of you and your lab coco would help us get to know you.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

HavAddiction said:


> As for the question of ownership of content, let me make one thing clear: WE DO NOT OWN your photos, videos, articles. You own them. They are yours. We do not (and have never) resold any content posted on our sites. From a logical standpoint, it's available for anyone to grab if you really think about it.


Well, the photos are only available to other members of the group the way things are set up now. People who are not members can read posts, but not see photos, so there's nothing to "grab".


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

HavAddiction said:


> Kathy, thanks for your comment. I don't know how else to say it to reassure you guys. I ask that you keep an open mind and wait and see approach to this. We're not changing the way you do things here from what you were use to even yesterday. As some of you have already seen, we are a business and it would be suicide for us to engage in this kind of shady practice.
> 
> Like I said previously, everything you have posted here before and going forward is readily available to anyone with an internet connection. For free too.  This is not the business we are in.


It can be "grabbed" by you, but you have no right to use it. (as I mentioned photos can't be seen, let alone grabbed by anyone who is not a member) Why, if you have no intention to use the photos, does your agreement say that you have the right to do so?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jetsetgo! said:


> One thing I can recommend to those who may be worried about their images is to watermark them. On another forum where I mod, which deals in designer fashion accessories, we always do this as our pictures were often stolen and used one eBay and the like without our permission. It does not stop people from reposting them, but they are somewhat less attractive to reuse.
> 
> example attached.


They are a whole lot less attractive to view also. Additionally, we have many members who struggle with simply resizing photos. Get into watermarking them, and they won't bother at all.

The only REAL protection we have right now is that the photos are VERY low rez, and aren't useful for much beyond BB use.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

krandall said:


> Well, the photos are only available to other members of the group the way things are set up now. People who are not members can read posts, but not see photos, so there's nothing to "grab".


But users post pictures within threads too right? Those pics are available to anyone. As for the member gallery, if someone wanted to grab pics from this site or any site, all they have to do is sign up for a free account.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

krandall said:


> They are a whole lot less attractive to view also. Additionally, we have many members who struggle with simply resizing photos. Get into watermarking them, and they won't bother at all.
> 
> The only REAL protection we have right now is that the photos are VERY low rez, and aren't useful for much beyond BB use.


This is a very true statement. Can I also say one more thing... No offense to anyone here or on any of the sites we manage, but by far and large, the pictures that are posted on most social networking sites do not meet the standards that a print media would require. The people I always worried about when I posted images on other sites are knock offs who take my pics and pass it off as their own. I can tell you guys/gals stories. Knock your socks off.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

HavAddiction said:


> But users post pictures within threads too right? Those pics are available to anyone. As for the member gallery, if someone wanted to grab pics from this site or any site, all they have to do is sign up for a free account.


Anyone "grabbing" a photo from anywhere is stealing and subject to copyright infringement lawsuit. I know several people who get substantial damages when their photos are taken. People just don't get the gravity of the situation. *Other people's photos or any intellectual property is not up for grabs.*


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

pjewel said:


> Anyone "grabbing" a photo from anywhere is stealing and subject to copyright infringement lawsuit. I know several people who get substantial damages when their photos are taken. People just don't get the gravity of the situation. *Other people's photos or any intellectual property is not up for grabs.*


Agreed.


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## Janizona (Oct 17, 2006)

juliav said:


> I am pretty sure that Poodle Forum that I frequent is also run by Vertical Scope, as i recognize Yung. Here's the main administrator there as well. Here's the link to the site so you can see what it looks like: www.poodleforum.com
> 
> That forum is also free, but you can upgrade to paid membership if you choose. I never considered belonging to a "paid" forum so checked out the member lists. It looks like I am one of the few free members on that site....crazy!!!!


Web presence is not free. Melissa had to upgrade to a dedicated server due to all the traffic (bandwidth) on this site and she paid for it herself so there would be no advertising and there would be no monthly fee for members. But in the end it was too expensive. Literally this was costing her well over over $1000 a year to keep.

If folks want FREE, they have to deal with advertising. If they don't want advertising, then they have to pay for the service. There's no more "free" forum any more, especially for one this size.

I am still exploring options.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

I think you are right, Janet, which is what I was referring to with the Delphi forums. That was when I was a member about 8 yrs. ago, so it's nothing new.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Janizona said:


> Web presence is not free. Melissa had to upgrade to a dedicated server due to all the traffic (bandwidth) on this site and she paid for it herself so there would be no advertising and there would be no monthly fee for members. But in the end it was too expensive. Literally this was costing her well over over $1000 a year to keep.
> 
> If folks want FREE, they have to deal with advertising. If they don't want advertising, then they have to pay for the service. There's no more "free" forum any more, especially for one this size.
> 
> I am still exploring options.


In this case I must say I agree. There really is no such thing as FREE and if people don't want to pay memberships, advertising is the way to go. Sadly, they CANNOT guarantee that puppy sales by breeders or BYB will not be advertised. UNLESS, they do not accept ads for puppies of any sort, or advertisements for any breeder. But that is at a loss of potential revenue for the the forum owners.

A new owner means new rules etc, and really there will be changes whether we like them or not.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

Actually, with regards to ads, we do want to follow the values of the community. The challenge in this is that BYB's and Puppy Mills don't present themselves to Google as such (not that Google would care or not care) which is why they filter into our ad network. Our best remedy so far has been to use Image ads from Google because generally, they cost the person who wants to advertise with Google a lot more and our thinking is that some of the smaller BYBs/Mills will not/do not want to pay the higher fees for this.


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## Gizmo'sMom (Jul 9, 2010)

Plus if we all click on it then send in the link it will cost the BYB/Mill money for nothing...we will break them a few nickels at a time  (I'm pretty sure google charges per click)

Trying to look on the bright side


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

:amen:



Gizmo'sMom said:


> Plus if we all click on it then send in the link it will cost the BYB/Mill money for nothing...we will break them a few nickels at a time  (I'm pretty sure google charges per click)
> 
> Trying to look on the bright side


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Gizmo'sMom said:


> Plus if we all click on it then send in the link it will cost the BYB/Mill money for nothing...we will break them a few nickels at a time  (I'm pretty sure google charges per click)
> 
> Trying to look on the bright side


Oooh I LIKE your thinking!!


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I don't mean to be the negative person on this advertisement part but I don't like it at all and can't see anything positive about it other than making some individual money who has no vested interest in OUR BREED. I really wish that type of money could have gone to HRI, health research, HCA, etc that would have a positive effect in our breed. Also, as we click more and send links of these breeders that isn't gonna be a good thing- I am sure they know how many clicks they get and so does google.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I absolutely agree, Amanda.

If funds are going to be generated (and they will) they should not go into the pockets of an individual, much less one who isn't involved in Havs, but back into the breed somehow. That would be ideal and that is why this whole thing is uncomfortable.


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## Gizmo'sMom (Jul 9, 2010)

ama0722 said:


> Also, as we click more and send links of these breeders that isn't gonna be a good thing- I am sure they know how many clicks they get and so does google.


That's what I meant, every time someone clicks google charges...then we get the link removed and they get charged for nothing. That's all I meant. Of course I would rather NO advertising, but we don't have an option for that right now and running a site like this is really expensive (for a single person).


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

The ads help pay for the site and the team that monitors the site 24/7 to ensure it is up and running. Yes we are a business so you already know what one of the goals of every business is.

Can I throw this out: Any fundraiser you guys were doing before, calendar contests, the quilt initiative I searched for -- those things are at your disposal to raise funds for the breed. We don't want anything from that.


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

Kimberly,
Breeders aren't making any profit, right? It all goes directly back to the breed?


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I can only speak for myself and no, no profit here. I can prove it with my tax returns. I account for every dime received and every cost spent. That's why I'm getting out for a bit - can't afford it! Besides, I make no money _because_ I invest in the breed (education!!, taking care of puppies I've brought into the world, investing in the next generation, etc.) . At this point, I see no interest in VS nor HavAddict in our breed except to keep the forum a profitable business for them. Is that what you wanted to hear?

ETA: Since you asked, I'll say that my best year financially in Havs was 2008 with the least loss of only a smidge more than $6000. Of course, I cannot legally deduct all my costs because no business is allowed to run at a "loss" on paper, but I do keep track of all of my records.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Dawna said:


> Kimberly,
> Breeders aren't making any profit, right? It all goes directly back to the breed?


Dawna,
Actually a good, honest, reputable breeder doesn't make a profit and because they are breeding the right way, yes, they are putting it back into the breed in trying to improve what they are breeding. That being healthier, nicer dogs.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

pjewel said:


> Anyone "grabbing" a photo from anywhere is stealing and subject to copyright infringement lawsuit. I know several people who get substantial damages when their photos are taken. People just don't get the gravity of the situation. *Other people's photos or any intellectual property is not up for grabs.*


Geri, I had that crazy lady on the web steal a pic of Kodi. I have been trying for 2 yrs to get her to remove his picture with no luck. Does anyone know how to go about doing this? I even contact the FCC about it, they said they would check, but I never heard anything from them.


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

I see nothing wrong with making a profit. Making money is not a bad thing. If a company can take this forum and make a little money while providing you all with a nice place to share, learn and interact for FREE, then that is a good thing. 

They, and I did, give you a place where you COULD make money for the breed. A central place where quilts were made, calendars sold and on and on. That can still go on and I think it should be appreciated that this FREE place is all here for you to promote your charitable activities for our great dogs.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

I know everyone hates to see this forum change, especially us "old-timers". However, I suggest (as much as it will kill all of with with MHS) to not post pics and videos until they feel comfortable with doing so. I will miss the monthly challenges and seeing all the new furbabies, but we have to keep up the forum to continue to educate people about the breed. 

The forum just won an award for the donation to HCA. That is such a testament to what we are all about. I would hate for that to change in any way. We can still continue to do our fundraising for HCA and HRI as a group. We can give the group a name other than the Havanese Forum if we have to.

Also, I would hate to think I would be losing the friends I've made here. All the wonderful playdates we have been to. I hope we can keep it together.

Sorry if it sounds like rambling, but I have so many feelings about this.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

HavAddiction said:


> Honestly, I'm not sure about this. Let me check with my bosses and I'll get back to you on this.
> 
> What I can say is that we don't engage in this kind of practice.
> 
> Everyone, I know you have no reason to believe this but I'm going to say it anyway..we're not a fly-by night mickey mouse operation. It would be suicide and stupid for us to engage in sneaky deeky things... again, allow us the time to prove us right on this one.


Having been involved in the pet publishing business for a LONG time, I have been given that kind of assurance before, and seen the results when there is a change in administration a few (or even a couple) of years down the line. I believe that you believe what you are saying. I'm not sure that protects the contributors.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Gizmo'sMom said:


> Plus if we all click on it then send in the link it will cost the BYB/Mill money for nothing...we will break them a few nickels at a time  (I'm pretty sure google charges per click)
> 
> Trying to look on the bright side


The more you click the more you also open yourself up for a virus.


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## Gizmo'sMom (Jul 9, 2010)

I'm done...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

hav2 said:


> I don't think any of us are trying to be argumentative, I just think that the way the terms read, it sounds as if everything we have ever written or will write in the future, any photos from past or future are now owned by a company. I think that came as a shock to a lot of us. As far as people having access to the internet and stealing our content for their own personal uses, it's different having the new owner of the forum come in and, as we read it, say "we own you now"


Non-exclusive rights means that YOU still own it, but they have the right to use it. (and from the agreement, it looks like they can use it pretty much any way they want) What they want to do with it today mat be very different from what they want to do with it down the line. He says that they would ask permission to use a photo, but the agreement expressly says they don't have to. At least that's how I read it.

In actual practice, as I mentioned in a previous post, we are all somewhat protected because the images accepted for upload on this forum are very small.


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

I've been around longer that that, Kimberly. I also know how profit and loss works.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Longer than what?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

galaxie said:


> Kathy, what you could always do in the meantime is post links to the videos and photos on other sites, like youtube or whatever photo site you might use.
> 
> For those of you who seem to think the TOS are odd, here is a portion of the Terms of Service from YouTube:


But I never have and never would post on You Tube. I post photos here expressly because of the sense of community and sharing we have.


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## hav2 (Feb 26, 2010)

Bottom line is..... VS owns Havanese Forum now. We can have them rewrite the terms to suit us and move forward. We will constantly be on them about what breeder ads they are running and try to keep those down as much as possible or....... We can abandon this gold mine of knowledge that we have all contributed to in some manner and start fresh elsewhere. No matter what the choice, it's gonna take time to figure out. Please don't argue with each other, I'd like to think we are all above that and have the best interest of the forum and our breed at heart. Let's stick together guys and figure it out from here.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

Havtahava said:


> ETA: Since you asked, I'll say that my best year financially in Havs was 2008 with the least loss of only a smidge more than $6000. Of course, I cannot legally deduct all my costs because no business is allowed to run at a "loss" on paper, but I do keep track of all of my records.


Businesses certainly can and do run at a loss all the time on paper. This is coming from me (econ/law major) and my cousin sitting beside me who is an accountant.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

galaxie said:


> Businesses certainly can and do run at a loss all the time on paper. This is coming from me (econ/law major) and my cousin sitting beside me who is an accountant.


Let me be specific to breeding then. As a breeder, my CPA has said that there is no way I can list everything each year and show that I'm only dumping money into this and not making any. Most business pay a wage to their employees. As a breeder, I don't earn a wage nor make any income over my costs. The expenses far exceed the cost of the pups.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

^ You should probably consult with another CPA then  But, it's like any other business. You can't write EVERYTHING off, not because you will be in the red, but because the government just will not accept some things, and there are limits on other deductions.

I dunno. I find it hard to believe that there is not one breeder out there who will admit to making a profit. I can imagine that some breeders don't, but there have got to be some who do.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

juliav said:


> I am pretty sure that Poodle Forum that I frequent is also run by Vertical Scope, as i recognize Yung. Here's the main administrator there as well. Here's the link to the site so you can see what it looks like: www.poodleforum.com
> 
> That forum is also free, but you can upgrade to paid membership if you choose. I never considered belonging to a "paid" forum so checked out the member lists. It looks like I am one of the few free members on that site....crazy!!!!


First page I opened there was an ad for a kennel selling designer "doodles".


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Oh, of course, Natalie! There are definitely breeders who make a profit. I just said that I can only speak for myself. My husband made an excellent income and we did it as a hobby that included showing and socializing with friends in addition to all the work, so the financial loss had other benefits.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

^ Karen, I think the passion that we have here is not necessarily matched on other forums. It's quite possible that no one noticed or cared to notice that ad, or any others that the membership as a whole would disagree with.

Yung has said that he will remove unwanted ads, and I think at this point we have to take him on his word.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

Havtahava said:


> Oh, of course, Natalie! There are definitely breeders who make a profit. I just said that I can only speak for myself. My husband made an excellent income and we did it as a hobby that included showing and socializing with friends in addition to all the work.


 oh those husbands! aren't they handy? heheehehe


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## lcy_pt (Aug 17, 2007)

Janizona said:


> Web presence is not free. Melissa had to upgrade to a dedicated server due to all the traffic (bandwidth) on this site and she paid for it herself so there would be no advertising and there would be no monthly fee for members. But in the end it was too expensive. Literally this was costing her well over over $1000 a year to keep.
> 
> If folks want FREE, they have to deal with advertising. If they don't want advertising, then they have to pay for the service. There's no more "free" forum any more, especially for one this size.
> 
> I am still exploring options.


Yup...totally remember this happening...somewhere between the time Melissa created the first calendar and Ryan took over the second year...can't remember which thread...but I seem to remember there was a lot of talk about using the initial profits from the calendar and/or future publications so that Melissa would not have to keep paying out of pocket....but nothing more was done, unless I've missed something?? Maybe other fundraising was suggested? Anyone else remember this?

Pat


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

lcy_pt said:


> Yup...totally remember this happening...somewhere between the time Melissa created the first calendar and Ryan took over the second year...can't remember which thread...but I seem to remember there was a lot of talk about using the initial profits from the calendar and/or future publications so that Melissa would not have to keep paying out of pocket....but nothing more was done, unless I've missed something?? Maybe other fundraising was suggested? Anyone else remember this?
> 
> Pat


I remember, Pat. I'm pretty sure that $10,000 profit from "Ryan's calendar" would have paid for a lot of forum expenses... I'm guessing the reason MM sold is more than just the $$$$ involved.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

HavAddiction said:


> But users post pictures within threads too right? Those pics are available to anyone. As for the member gallery, if someone wanted to grab pics from this site or any site, all they have to do is sign up for a free account.


I don't think so. Before Melissa approved my membership, I couldn't see any photos in threads. There was just a box with an "x" where the photo should have been. At the time, it was frustrating.<g>


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## Janizona (Oct 17, 2006)

galaxie said:


> ^ You should probably consult with another CPA then  But, it's like any other business. You can't write EVERYTHING off, not because you will be in the red, but because the government just will not accept some things, and there are limits on other deductions.
> 
> I dunno. I find it hard to believe that there is not one breeder out there who will admit to making a profit. I can imagine that some breeders don't, but there have got to be some who do.


I did! One year I had all my girls finished and tested, I had used my own stud and ended up with good size litters.

Oh wait - Then I proceeded to use the profits to build a big covered patio off the back of the house so the dogs didn't have to potty in the rain and snow. Oh well....LOL


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

marjrc said:


> I think you are right, Janet, which is what I was referring to with the Delphi forums. That was when I was a member about 8 yrs. ago, so it's nothing new.


I'm an owner of a Delphi Forum that I "inherited" from the former owner. One BIG problem with a Delphi Forum is that people have a very hard time finding it, even if they know it's there. We happen to have a front door through a well-known, affiliated web site. But I'm not sure how Hav people would would find us on Delphi.


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

Kathy said:


> Dawna,
> Actually a good, honest, reputable breeder doesn't make a profit and because they are breeding the right way, yes, they are putting it back into the breed in trying to improve what they are breeding. That being healthier, nicer dogs.


Absolutely Kathy. Any money from a sale goes right back in to showing, health testing, donating to clubs and rescue.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Havtahava said:


> I absolutely agree, Amanda.
> 
> If funds are going to be generated (and they will) they should not go into the pockets of an individual, much less one who isn't involved in Havs, but back into the breed somehow. That would be ideal and that is why this whole thing is uncomfortable.


I agree completely. Unfortunately, I think that ship has already sailed.


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

*Pictures and Video*

I am not concerned about pictures and video being used incorrectly. We have all been vulnerable to this since we started our websites, and posts on Yahoo or on this forum - regardless of who the owner is.

You own your pictures, and no one can infringe on that copyright. As it stands, someone could have taken a screen shot or done a "save as" on any of your pictures and used them if they wanted to.

If you are worried about it, I would put a watermark on them .


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## lcy_pt (Aug 17, 2007)

irnfit said:


> I know everyone hates to see this forum change, especially us "old-timers". However, I suggest (as much as it will kill all of with with MHS) to not post pics and videos until they feel comfortable with doing so. I will miss the monthly challenges and seeing all the new furbabies, but we have to keep up the forum to continue to educate people about the breed.
> 
> *The forum just won an award for the donation to HCA*. That is such a testament to what we are all about. I would hate for that to change in any way. We can still continue to do our fundraising for HCA and HRI as a group. We can give the group a name other than the Havanese Forum if we have to.
> 
> ...


How cool is that?!?! So all the unpaid, hours put in by our forum family towards quilts and calendars really, really made a difference. Not to mention all the free advice so many of our thoughtful breeders and older members provide is really something to cheer about! Well done, guys!!!

Pat


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Wow! Change happens. Watermarks are easy Picasa lets you do it and its free. This is a great forum and it will stay a great place to visit if the wonderful members stick around and keep it that way. Many people here post to youtube people can access and download. I never upload videos there with pictures of my grandchildren or any children because anyone can see it. Please keep an open mind!!!!! I too will be devastated if all the old threads were taken off.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Julie said:


> HavAddiction
> Administrator
> 
> :boink: Shouldn't you be HAV-NOT? ound: I see you posted you didn't even own a havanese...just saying......ound:


op2: ound: omg, that's funny.

I do feel sorry for any and all hav-nots, as havs are the BEST dogs in the whole world!


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Janizona said:


> Web presence is not free. Melissa had to upgrade to a dedicated server due to all the traffic (bandwidth) on this site and she paid for it herself so there would be no advertising and there would be no monthly fee for members. But in the end it was too expensive. Literally this was costing her well over over $1000 a year to keep.
> 
> If folks want FREE, they have to deal with advertising. If they don't want advertising, then they have to pay for the service. There's no more "free" forum any more, especially for one this size.
> 
> I am still exploring options.


I would've been willing to pay this cost to keep the advertisers away.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

lcy_pt said:


> How cool is that?!?! So all the unpaid, hours put in by our forum family towards quilts and calendars really, really made a difference. Not to mention all the free advice so many of our thoughtful breeders and older members provide is really something to cheer about! Well done, guys!!!
> 
> Pat


Yup, it is VERY cool, Pat! It was a surprise to hear, at the HCA banquet on Saturday, that the Hav Forum was granted an award, for it's $10,000 donation thanks to calender sales. All the hard work of Ryan and his team (Amanda, Leeann, Sally ... not sure if others helped with the mailing) paid off. :whoo:

If what you, moderator/owner, say is true, that we can still do fund-raisers and organize event/projects to help HRI or any other cause, then that is one worry off my mind.


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

Who accepted that award on behalf of the Havanese Forum?


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Kimberly accepted the award on the Forum's behalf. I think it was definitely appropriate seeing how she is also a member of the HCA - perfect Liason between the two.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

marjrc said:


> Yup, it is VERY cool, Pat! It was a surprise to hear, at the HCA banquet on Saturday, that the Hav Forum was granted an award, for it's $10,000 donation thanks to calender sales. All the hard work of Ryan and his team (Amanda, Leeann, Sally ... not sure if others helped with the mailing) paid off. :whoo:
> 
> *If what you, moderator/owner, say is true, that we can still do fund-raisers and organize event/projects to help HRI or any other cause, then that is one worry off my mind.*


We can always do fundraising on the other side, as a group. I'd hate to see an of our projects affected negatively, we've all put too much time, love and effort into the quilt and calendar, etc. over the last few years.
...total labor of love, and it should continue


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

_Kimberly accepted the award on the Forum's behalf. I think it was definitely appropriate seeing how she is also a member of the HCA - perfect Liason between the two. 
_

Well you might think Melissa would been have notified since she was the owner of the forum at the time...she did start the forum and she did start the Havanese Calendar project. Just seems like it would have been thoughtful to mention to her that the Havanese Forum was being presented with an award. That seems 'definitely appropriate' to me, too.
*My opinion entirely*, not Melissa's.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Where you there Dawna?


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Oh and actually, MM was not the owner anymore as it was already mentioned that there are NEW owners of the forum and they will soon let us know who they are. They waited until after the Specialty to announce themselves.

This recognition, was announced on the final evening, so no one knew prior to that. So were we to contact the NEW OWNERS?


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## Janizona (Oct 17, 2006)

Dawna said:


> _Kimberly accepted the award on the Forum's behalf. I think it was definitely appropriate seeing how she is also a member of the HCA - perfect Liason between the two.
> _
> 
> Well you might think Melissa would been have notified since she was the owner of the forum at the time...she did start the forum and she did start the Havanese Calendar project. Just seems like it would have been thoughtful to mention to her that the Havanese Forum was being presented with an award. That seems 'definitely appropriate' to me, too.
> *My opinion entirely*, not Melissa's.


Exactly what DAY did this officially transfer BTW?

I agree it would have been nice for Melissa to be told but the Forum was given this because of the hard work the members put into the fund raising, with the HCA being the reciepient of the money. Its a 50/50 award and neither could have done it without the other. I knew about the award at the National but have I missed a thread that tells the membership about it? I'll have to go look!


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

_This recognition, was announced on the final evening, so no one knew prior to that. So were we to contact the NEW OWNERS?_

and who is 'we'...'we' that decided who or who not to inform?


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## lcy_pt (Aug 17, 2007)

Dawna said:


> _Kimberly accepted the award on the Forum's behalf. I think it was definitely appropriate seeing how she is also a member of the HCA - perfect Liason between the two.
> _
> 
> Well you might think Melissa would been have notified since she was the *owner of the forum at the time...she did start the forum and she did start the Havanese Calendar project*. Just seems like it would have been thoughtful to mention to her that the Havanese Forum was being presented with an award. That seems 'definitely appropriate' to me, too.
> *My opinion entirely*, not Melissa's.


Dawna! My goodness it's been a long time since I've seen you post! Welcome back!!

Completely agree with you that Melissa should have been notified, but I seem to remember she just got back from another trip? A simple oversight surely? Hopefully she'll post some more pics....she is the most awesome photographer!

My own opinion...and of course it's only that...is really _all_ the members who donated their time and talents should have been given the award as a _group_. Now that would have been something for sure! I certainly cannot take credit for all the good work so many of our forum members have graciously donated. I have done nothing other than purchase raffle tickets and calendars. I feel silly taking credit for something I didn't do...well except cheer them all on perhaps. We all do what we can, yes?

Pat


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

lcy_pt said:


> Dawna! My goodness it's been a long time since I've seen you post! Welcome back!!
> 
> Completely agree with you that Melissa should have been notified, but I seem to remember she just got back from another trip? A simple oversight surely? Hopefully she'll post some more pics....she is the most awesome photographer!
> 
> ...


Hi Pat...Agreed!
p.s....I've been around


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Actually they DID NOT OWN IT THEN. See once again people are saying things they know NOTHING ABOUT. 

And whoever thinks I waited until after the National is giving me far too much credit. I was in ALASKA, then NEW YORK back to back. THAT is what I waited for. I wasnt even sure when the National was because I have been busy starting a new business. 

ONE PERSON other than Ryan contacted me asking me ANYTHING about this before hand. I had no idea about any awards until 2 days ago when Julie told me.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Dawna, I just found the thread about the HCA award to the forum! http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=12399 I'll be posting a pic there soon.


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## Janizona (Oct 17, 2006)

Thanks Marj! I'm going to go look.


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## Janizona (Oct 17, 2006)

Melissa Miller said:


> Actually they DID NOT OWN IT THEN. See once again people are saying things they know NOTHING ABOUT.
> 
> And whoever thinks I waited until after the National is giving me far too much credit. I was in ALASKA, then NEW YORK back to back. THAT is what I waited for. I wasnt even sure when the National was because I have been busy starting a new business.
> 
> ONE PERSON other than Ryan contacted me asking me ANYTHING about this before hand. I had no idea about any awards until 2 days ago when Julie told me.


I hope you aren't referring to ME Melissa! That is why I asked on the forum, you had already told me it wasn't final until you announced it. I hoped you'd speak up.

So lets say congrats to the owner of the forum, Melissa Miller for making this award even possible. I'm sure when you started the forum you had no idea how it would create a whole world of families.

Hugs


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Janizona said:


> I hope you aren't referring to ME Melissa! That is why I asked on the forum, you had already told me it wasn't final until you announced it. I hoped you'd speak up.
> 
> So lets say congrats to the owner of the forum, Melissa Miller for making this award even possible. I'm sure when you started the forum you had no idea how it would create a whole world of families.
> 
> Hugs


Yes Congratulations! And sorry if I am totally misinformed and misquoting. I don't come on here much and just the few days leading up to the show is where I briefly read what was to come.

If it wasn't for you this community would not be here and we would not have all this wonderful information and experience to refer to. Not to mention the wonderful people here.


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Not I am not Janet, you are one of the few who actually contacted me and asked questions. I have been hearing this more and more. Helen, no problem at all. 
I appreciate it. 

I am talking about one or two people here at all. Im hearing ALL kinds of things that have been said.


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

So everyone is aware, my posts that were being emailed to me from the Forum started going to my spam and junk files this morning...you might want to check yours also.

I heard a lot of talk about the Forum being sold in the past few weeks and I felt like I was the last one to know about it. 

Also the award to the Forum was a surprise, Kimberly posted about it shortly after she got to her room I believe.

Beverly


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I didn't know of any awards myself prior to seeing it posted....just for the record. If it was known ahead of time it sure would of been nice for Ryan and all those involved in the calendar to know so they could attend.

Also--I find it quite sad that Amanda was also not able to attend the National either when she was honored with her accomplishments with the handsome Bellatak Dasher!


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I want to add here as well----it was noted that Lu Wyland changed the history of the HRI site to include us (as a forum) for our help and work with the quilts. Most of you wouldn't care,but it means something to me. It was posted in the quilt thread by Linda and brought to my attention. The thing is--you have to be here and be involved to know what is going on.


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## tlamann (Apr 10, 2010)

I think this is the perfect time to see a happy face...


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

Beautiful dog... I surmise it was taken at a park.. the park is just as lovely but your dog is beautiful.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Any awards event I have ever gone to the recipients have always been informed, so here I thought that they were made aware. I was unaware that they are "surprise" awards. So for me it was odd as to why people were making suggestions as to what to do with the award. For my first awards, it was rather confusing. Hope this gets sorted out soon!


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

BeverlyA said:


> Also the award to the Forum was a surprise, Kimberly posted about it shortly after she got to her room I believe.
> 
> Beverly


EXACTLY Beverly. The Presidents Award is on that the HCA President choses themselves. It's not an award earned by producing the most champions, or doing health testing or by the Board of Director's voting on. It is a decision of choice made ONLY by the President. Joan, the HCA president was so moved by the huge donation made to HCA from those who were responsible for selling the calendar, she wanted to be sure they were honored. The Board of Directors also sponsored a trophy for the national in the name of the Havanese Forum because of the donation.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Kathy said:


> EXACTLY Beverly. The Presidents Award is on that the HCA President choses themselves. It's not an award earned by producing the most champions, or doing health testing or by the Board of Director's voting on. It is a decision of choice made ONLY by the President. Joan, the HCA president was so moved by the huge donation made to HCA from those who were responsible for selling the calendar, she wanted to be sure they were honored. The Board of Directors also sponsored a trophy for the national in the name of the Havanese Forum because of the donation.


Okay so then no one would have known until that very moment it was announced. I was away from home, so if people are UPSET with me for not emailing people to let them know, then sorry. I didn't bring my laptop as I had enough to worry about. The good thing is the forum was recognized and it is SAD that this very fact is being negated.


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

No one is upset with you Helen


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## Suuske747 (May 9, 2007)

I haven't finished reading all pages... 
However, I would like to request the freedom to delete threads I have started.....


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

whitBmom said:


> Okay so then no one would have known until that very moment it was announced.


Exactly, the Presidents award is always a surprise and unknown until it is announced.

Also, neither Amanda nor I knew about Dasher's award because these awards are only given to club members. Since I am the club member I had forgotten to even look at the final 2009 results for performance events as this part of the dog world is so new to me. Needless to say when I saw Dasher and Amanda's names in the banquet program I was surprised and thrilled for them.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I will admit I had an idea that they wanted to thank the forum at the National since it was a huge donation but didn't know there would be an actual award or anything like that until Kimberly posted as well. I thought it might just be a verbal thank you at some point but not an award. I did receive a thank you from the president of HCA at the time I physically sent the check. I thought I shared it with the forum not sure if I posted the actual email? I thought it was nice that it was shared immediately on the public forum that the havanese forum received such an honor almost immediately! I knew late spring that it was unlikely I would be able to attend National because I took a position with a school district. I really wanted to go but I couldn't take my first 3 days of my new job off  I am sorry if anyone felt they were left out of knowing anything having to do with the calendar though.

I will add Dasher was a total surprise but Julie it was great timing with everything going on in my life. I like surprises to be honest! While versatility was likely known he has gotten titles in at least 3 venues but 2009 he was still a baby and we were barely competing (as you can tell by the titles he had on his name at the time!)


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Some surprises are better served hot~~ It does always feel good to be recognized.

Julie, that is really awesome and you/we should all feel pride in the final beauty.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

There were no secrets kept by anyone, and it was a wonderful and gracious surprise from Joan Ambrose. An honor is an honor is an honor and I feel very proud of that. 

Now back to the subject of this thread.....


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

I would just like to make sure Ryan gets the award. I will pay for shipping. I would also like to know what happened to the $1,000 they gave back to the forum?


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Where do you see anything about this $1000????

Ryan


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I have never heard or read anything about any money.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

HavAddiction said:


> I don't own a Havanese but I do have a Choco Lab named Joy. She's with my mom at the moment because my wife and I cannot take care of her full time and we're moving into a condo soon. But she's only minutes away.


Yung, probably not the best way to introduce yourself as this is a VERY picky bunch. That sort of comment about giving up your dog to a family member just because you are busy usually does not go over to well with this crowd and could be considered VERY TABOO!! I'm just saying is all..

Also, what do you think about replacing out those 2010 Calendar banners? The calendar has been sold out for 8 months now. (and people still email me with questions)

Also, for future fundraising ventures, would VS work along side the forum members and help? Sending out mass emails to all members, putting up and changing banners depending on whats going on? and so on.. ?

Thanks!
Ryan


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

FYI: I will no longer be a moderator. I have decided that though I care about the forum --because of new rules and not having the ability to really speak or post my own thoughts and opinions (as a new VS moderator) if they do not align with adminstrators,my freedom to post is more important then a so-called "title". Thank you Melissa------It's a been a fun ride! :becky:


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Beamer said:


> Where do you see anything about this $1000????
> 
> Ryan


I'd read about the $1,000. Maybe in the letter that was posted from the HCA president with the thank you. (or was it on Facebook) I just tried to do a quick search but didn't find it.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

The $1000 was donated by the HCA Board to Havanese Rescue Inc., NOT the forum. The Forum receieved the President's award but no $$.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Oh good gravy. So many pointing fingers and rumors flying in this thread.

Let's start with the sale of the forum. That information (started as rumors) was flying around no less than 3 WEEKS before the specialty. I hate rumors and upset, so I specifically posted here on the forum asking questions directly to the new owners. What happened? No answers except "be patient for a bit" from Melissa.

At our annual awards dinner, the president surprised us (the HCA members & guests) with three awards (maybe four?) of her choice, the HF being one, and asked if someone would come forward from the forum. I was closest and since I knew none of the calendar coordinators nor owners were there, and I was at a table right in front of her, it was no big deal. How on earth some financial gain came into the formula is ridiculously bizarre.

Nothing was a secret. Photos were taken right away so all could see and I immediately posted a topic _*at*_ the Havanese Forum _*for*_ the Havanese Forum members to read. Not sure what else could be done. Seriously. Talk about a lose-lose situation.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

How sad that a wonderful award has become this. 
I think it is wonderful that at a show put on by the Havanese Club of America for and about exhibitors and breeders, the forum, which is 90% pet owners, was recognized with no less than a President's Award. It's quite an honor and one to be proud of.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Exactly, Susan, and that is how I see it.  It was HRI that rec'd a donation from HCA. It had nothing to do with us.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

mckennasedona said:


> The $1000 was donated by the HCA Board to Havanese Rescue Inc., NOT the forum. The Forum receieved the President's award but no $$.


That was my understanding too. From our HF table at the dinner, we were surprised about BOTH awards.

So, sorry Ryan - no $1000 for you! eace:


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Joan did award $1,000 to HRI at the same time as that was also included in another of her presidential awards. The forum was not granted any money.

Melissa, Kimberly didn't do ANYTHING wrong. She only tried to be a representative of the forum to receive the award from Joan. It seems you are listening to rumors/lies from someone that obviously was NOT PRESENT at the banquet that night. These accusations need to stop now!!!!!


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

Suuske747 said:


> I haven't finished reading all pages...
> However, I would like to request the freedom to delete threads I have started.....


You can't delete the entire thread because that would be deleting other peoples' posts, not just yours. You can edit the post and delete all the content that YOU posted, though!


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## Miss Paige (Apr 4, 2008)

I agree with Kathy. I was not at the Banquet but do know that HRI received a monetary donation from HCA along with the President's Award and Cup. 

I think it was great to have the Forum recognized and an award given for the donation that was made to HCA from the Calendar sales. 

I agree with Kathy-Kimberly did nothing wrong and I too feel the rumors should stop Now.

Pat (humom to)
Miss Paige
Mr Roman
Ms Frannie


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## Suuske747 (May 9, 2007)

galaxie said:


> You can't delete the entire thread because that would be deleting other peoples' posts, not just yours. You can edit the post and delete all the content that YOU posted, though!


hhmm ok.... I wish I hadn't blabbed that much then hahahaha!

Still, if people quoted your post incl. the pictures...those pictures you then can't delete....hhmmmm that's why I was wondering about deleting the thread you started.....

Edit: well, apparently there's a time limit on how long ago you can edit posts.... I want to delete my Proud mother of Julien posts/pictures as they really are very private..it was a very emotional time in my life, and I just really want it deleted so later in life Julien doesn't come across it............but there's no edit-button.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

What on earth is going on here? What would be the point of $1,000 going to the forum when the whole reason for the calendar and quilt and everything else was to make money for havs.


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## LilyMyLove (Jul 11, 2009)

Just a gentle suggestion: I've only been a member on this forum for a little over a year, so I realize that I do not have the same amount of time invested as some of you. I think that this also makes me uniquely qualified to step back a bit and suggest that maybe people log off the forum for a day or two and take a breather. This is all getting very heated as this is a very emotional situation-and rightly so. I think many of you are friends and this is a great community-it would be unfortunate to say the least if bridges were burned by things said and mud slinged in the heat of the moment. Lets not start infighting when the issues that we have are really with outsiders. Lets try to not direct that anger at one another.eace:eace:eace:


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## nancyf (Nov 6, 2007)

Please don't delete old posts. This Forum is like a library for me. There's too much information that would be gone.


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## mintchip (Apr 19, 2007)

nancyf said:


> *Please don't delete old posts. This Forum is like a library for me. There's too much information that would be gone*.


:grouphug:The Forum was started and has continued to a place to share our highs,lows, and hopes for this wonderful havanese breed! I/WE joined as an individual and now feel like we grown to be a family. 
The information is too valuable to us and future havanese families.:grouphug:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mintchip said:


> :grouphug:The Forum was started and has continued to a place to share our highs,lows, and hopes for this wonderful havanese breed! I/WE joined as an individual and now feel like we grown to be a family.
> The information is too valuable to us and future havanese families.:grouphug:


I agree with you and nancyf completely. Removing posts is SO different from wanting to protect your photos. Please leave all the good information here for others to use.


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## Pattie (Jun 25, 2008)

Bump


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## nancyf (Nov 6, 2007)

Melissa Miller said:


> Dear Forum Friends,
> 
> As you all have started to figure out, I have transferred the ownership of the Hav Forum. It was not an easy decision, but one I had to make. You all know I have not had time to manage it properly and it has cost me a good amount of money each month to keep it going.
> 
> ...


I've read and pondered and read again all the fears and concerns about the new ownership. Then it hit me. Melissa has been a good "owner" all this time. She has shown herself to be worthy of our trust in the past and, I believe, we can trust her now. She wouldn't pass this Forum to someone that plans evil for this good work she has done. If we can't "trust" the new ownership, then let's give them a chance based on the trust we have in Melissa. Time will tell, just as time proved the integrity of Melissa.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Nancy,

I think they have already admitted that puppy (mill) sales will be happening via Google Ads. And they have also stated that its up to YOU to police these ads and report them on a daily basis. It's possible that Melissa did not really understand how the Google Ads advertsing model works.

Ryan


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Beamer said:


> Nancy,
> 
> I think they have already admitted that puppy (mill) sales will be happening via Google Ads. And they have also stated that its up to YOU to police these ads and report them on a daily basis. It's possible that Melissa did not really understand how the Google Ads advertsing model works.
> 
> Ryan


Yes all that Ryan said and then you have to PAY for a membership if you want better service and more "perks". I would think with paid memberships, that is for those who opt to pay for more service, that VS would monitor the ads. I find it very odd that paying members will also be responsible for monitoring ads from puppy mills. Actually ALL members are responsible for that. Sorry don't mean to sound snippety but it just seems a little one sided IMHO when we never had to worry about puppymill and BYB ads coming through.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

whitBmom said:


> Yes all that Ryan said and then you have to PAY for a membership if you want better service and more "perks". I would think with paid memberships, that is for those who opt to pay for more service, that VS would monitor the ads. I find it very odd that paying members will also be responsible for monitoring ads from puppy mills. Actually ALL members are responsible for that. Sorry don't mean to sound snippety but it just seems a little one sided IMHO when we never had to worry about puppymill and BYB ads coming through.


Sorry but a lot of this post is inaccurate. Firstly, it's been repeated many times already that you DO NOT have to pay for membership. Free memberships will always be available.

For the OPTIONAL paid memberships down the road, I don't know where you got the idea that if you want better service, you have to be a paid user. I never even alluded to that. All I did mention was that the paid memberships get more tech related perks. Nothing to do with service.

As for the ads, I'm sorry again but some of you are making it sound like all we're going to do is flash puppy mill ads when that couldn't be further from the truth.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

I just went on most of our pet sites that are serving Google ads and I did a little test for my own knowledge. I logged in and I spent about a minute on some of our sites viewing different threads, refreshing the screens so I could see which ads are popping up....not a single puppy ad... I said already that the occasional one will slip through the crack and I'm sorry if you're offended by that. The fact is, an overwhelmingly large percentage (I'm going out on a limb here and I'll say 99.99%) of the ads that are seen by logged in users are NOT puppy mill ads. I'm being honest and upfront about it but I've also extended an invitation to everyone who is concerned about this to see for yourself.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Yung,

I just did the same test as you On goldenretrieverforum.com.
These came up on the smaller type ads.
So 3 out of 12.. thats 25%!

What site are you looking at?

*Labradoodle puppies for sale* 
Looking For Beautiful Labradoodles? Trusted Breeder, Gorgeous Puppies! 
www.PrairieDoodles.ca

*Golden Retrievers* Find Golden Retrievers Online. Search For A New Man's Best F riend
Golden-Retrievers.ClassifiedAds.com

*Goldendoodles/GoldenRetr.* Dark Red CKC and AKC Registered Exc. Temperaments and Conformation
www.youngscountrykennels.com


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

I think the problem lies in the fact that VS and Yung do not associate these google ads with puppy mills! 

About 99.9% of this junk of Google are mills being disguised as reputable breeders.

Ryan


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

Did you log in as a user Beamer? Logged in users see different ads then guests.



Beamer said:


> Yung,
> 
> I just did the same test as you On goldenretrieverforum.com.
> These came up on the smaller type ads.
> ...


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Yung, lol.. Your still missing the POINT... lol
you see, the members here do not want GUESTS to see the puppy mill ads and think... "*Wow, look at those cute pups advertised on the TRUSTED havaneseforum! That means they must be trustworthy breeders!"*

Do you kind of understand now? I honestly thought you understood before... but obviously was wrong..

Ryan


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

I do understand Ryan, really I do. This isn't the first community I've had to have this discussion with.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Ok then, so why were you comparing what I might see Vs. what a guest might see?

Anyhow, it is what it is.. lol

Ryan


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

While I don't claim to be an expert on what is a puppy mill or not, my disagreement is in your assessment that guests who see the text ads will inherently think that this community supports the puppy mills that come through in those ads. I don't think I will be able to convince you on this point though.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

Yung, I can guarantee you that membership will drop off to zero if ads from mills and BYBs are permitted in any way, shape, or form on this forum. The majority of us are against ANY form of puppy sales on this forum, including posts from members, ads, or whatever else. I know that in the past, posting about puppies for sale meant an automatic ban.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

I agree with you Natalie.. Honestly, this forum probably was NOT the best choice for a buyout considering how the population responds to this sort of thing. I have a feeling VS did not do their homework...

Time will tell though!

Ryan


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## Cailleach (Jan 30, 2010)

I have been reading through all the threads and I would hate to see animals for sale especially puppies advertised. As a heads up, not sure if this is what the future holds for this forum but another forum I am a member of had these volunteer paid membership options and they are a pain in the butt. Many, many e-mails in your mail on almost a daily basis with advertising. It's like paying to have spam sent to you...ick.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Yungster said:


> Did you log in as a user Beamer? Logged in users see different ads then guests.


Oy vey! This is exactly what most of us have been concerned might happen. A guest would be presumed to be someone who is interested in gathering information and possibly even looking for a puppy (vs. being a member and already invested in the forum). If they see _*any*_ ads of puppies for sale, I think the integrity of the forum has been already lost.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

Cailleach said:


> I have been reading through all the threads and I would hate to see animals for sale especially puppies advertised. As a heads up, not sure if this is what the future holds for this forum but another forum I am a member of had these volunteer paid membership options and they are a pain in the butt. Many, many e-mails in your mail on almost a daily basis with advertising. It's like paying to have spam sent to you...ick.


I've seen this too. Fortunately, we don't engage in spamming for any of our membership. Once in a while, we'll send a newsletter out to users (this has happened on our non-pet related sites). But spamming, we definitely do not do.


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## ls-indy (Apr 10, 2008)

Beamer said:


> Yung, lol.. Your still missing the POINT... lol
> you see, the members here do not want GUESTS to see the puppy mill ads and think... "*Wow, look at those cute pups advertised on the TRUSTED havaneseforum! That means they must be trustworthy breeders!"*
> 
> Do you kind of understand now? I honestly thought you understood before... but obviously was wrong..
> ...


None of us want to see any puppy ads AT ALL. But if you say once in awhile something like that might slip through - why can't there be a HUGE, STRONG DISCLAIMER stating that the forum doesn't NOT endorse or approve breeders or puppies that may appear on ads??


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

As a non-techy person doing research for dogs about three years ago, before I had a dog, these forums that had ads do come across as pushing and validating whoever is selling something in that ad. I thought "these people must like these products/dogs or they would never have been allowed to advertise here." I am just now learning through all these discussions about the buy-out how that really works. I didn't have a clue!

I personally stayed off those forums at the time because I felt it was cheap and gaudy, but a lot of people might not think that way and decide that this is the way to buy a pup!

Yuck! Gag.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

ls-indy said:


> None of us want to see any puppy ads AT ALL. But if you say once in awhile something like that might slip through - why can't there be a HUGE, STRONG DISCLAIMER stating that the forum doesn't NOT endorse or approve breeders or puppies that may appear on ads??


This is a terrific idea.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

I respectfully disagree. Even a strong disclaimer is *not enough*. Many people will still assume that the forum endorses, to some degree, those who are allowed to advertise on this site. There are too many well-intentioned people who can be and are easily deceived by these kinds of ads.

While there are many things that members may not "like" about the change in ownership, the allowing of byb and puppy mill ads are an absolute _dealbreaker _for many of us, including me. This forum is committed the integrity and health of the Havanese breed. Even a casual association with these kinds of ads runs completely counter to the values of this community.


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## Pattie (Jun 25, 2008)

Jane,

You took the words right out of my mouth. Well said.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

Jane said:


> I respectfully disagree. Even a strong disclaimer is *not enough*. Many people will still assume that the forum endorses, to some degree, those who are allowed to advertise on this site. There are too many well-intentioned people who can be and are easily deceived by these kinds of ads.
> 
> While there are many things that members may not "like" about the change in ownership, the allowing of byb and puppy mill ads are an absolute _dealbreaker _for many of us, including me. This forum is committed the integrity and health of the Havanese breed. Even a casual association with these kinds of ads runs completely counter to the values of this community.


Thank you for this feedback.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

There has got to be some sort of technology out there to filter out ads selling puppies or advertising for mills, BYBs, pet stores, etc.

Yung, does VS not filter the ads BEFORE they are approved for use on the forums? If not, maybe there is a way that this can be done?


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

galaxie said:


> There has got to be some sort of technology out there to filter out ads selling puppies or advertising for mills, BYBs, pet stores, etc.
> 
> Yung, does VS not filter the ads BEFORE they are approved for use on the forums? If not, maybe there is a way that this can be done?


I'll look into this. Off the top of my had, I would say we don't have the ability to do this --otherwise, we would have done this long ago and spared myself the public whipping I've received on numerous pet sites.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Many thanks to Melissa for starting these Forums. No worries about selling it from me. She has carried the expense plenty long enough.

I have posted here from the very beginning, and hope I have helped some dogs and owners.

I do not want my name associated with any site that advertises puppies. I've never had any problem with any other Forums I've been a member of since there has been such a thing, and almost all the others are a lot larger than this one.

None of my other Forums have a limit on what you can and can not edit. My horse forums is so large that they dump the whole thing every few years and start over, saving some threads as reference, but none dissallow or limit editing. No explanation will change my mind on this.

I want to be able to edit anything I have ever posted here, and feel it's a right worth defending. I received no notice that this was going to take place. New ownership is negligent in not giving notice. New Owners knew, or should have known that this would be an issue.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Tom King said:


> Many thanks to Melissa for starting these Forums. No worries about selling it from me. She has carried the expense plenty long enough.
> 
> I have posted here from the very beginning, and hope I have helped some dogs and owners.
> 
> ...


Tom, I second the motion, vociferously and adamantly! When a freedom is taken away, it feels very much like a hostage situation and I, for one, will not be a willing hostage. It's imperative that you give us back the right to do whatever we want with content we provided under rules that were totally different and the antithesis of these. Otherwise I suspect this will get to be a very lonely place.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

No problem finding plenty of legal cases on this.

Here's a quote from one: "It may seem obvious to any first-year law student that one party to a contract can't change the terms of that contract without notifying the other. "


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

whitBmom said:


> I find it very odd that paying members will also be responsible for monitoring ads from puppy mills. Actually ALL members are responsible for that. Sorry don't mean to sound snippety but it just seems a little one sided IMHO when we never had to worry about puppymill and BYB ads coming through.


Worse, paying members won't be ABLE to police puppy mill/BYB ads, because they won't see them.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Yungster said:


> Did you log in as a user Beamer? Logged in users see different ads then guests.


But, Yung, don't you understand that new to the breed (and possibly new to dog) people are going to FIRST see the forum NOT logged in? They may, in fact, choose to read for quite a while without joining. And all that time, they are being bombarded with sometimes well-disguised puppy mill/BYB ads. They then go by their puppy mill puppy, have problems, come back to the board and sign up to try to get help dealing with all the trouble they could have avoided buying from a reputable breeder to start with.

If you can block these ads from registered users, why can't they be completely blocked form the site? I'd like people to come into a site that is "clean" from the get-go, not one where the "bad" ads are hidden from the regular users so that they don't irritate us. We already KNOW not to buy dogs from puppy mill/BYB sources.

Sorry, I posted this before reading the rest of your responses. I'll leave it here, though, as an added voice in all that has been said.


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## MaddiesMom (Apr 1, 2007)

Jane said:


> I respectfully disagree. Even a strong disclaimer is *not enough*. Many people will still assume that the forum endorses, to some degree, those who are allowed to advertise on this site. There are too many well-intentioned people who can be and are easily deceived by these kinds of ads.
> 
> While there are many things that members may not "like" about the change in ownership, the allowing of byb and puppy mill ads are an absolute _dealbreaker _for many of us, including me. This forum is committed the integrity and health of the Havanese breed. Even a casual association with these kinds of ads runs completely counter to the values of this community.


Jane, you perfectly sum up my objections. Like others, I am *passionate* about not associating with any website that purposely or inadvertently allows ads for BYBs or puppymill breeders. And Karen, I agree with you that its even worse when its the "guests" that see the ads, as they usually aren't as informed as those of us who have been on the Forum for a long time. Its a total "dealbreaker" for me too....and I suspect for many, many Forum members.


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## mintchip (Apr 19, 2007)

*Jane,Jeanne and Karen I agree with you!*


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

While I would still like to remain optimistic about the future of this forum, Yungster's response to this issue is SO lacking in understanding of the basic issues that I am really dismayed. 

I think it is time that we at LEAST develop a fall-back position. If we all just decide "not" to come here, everyone will scatter willy nilly and it will be very hard to find each other.

I HATE FB, but went to look at the FB Havanese Forum, and was dismayed to find that although (at this point, anyway) it appears to still belong to Melissa, it has the Forum logo and a link to this Forum. Not ideal, but at least we could use it as a place to regroup. The problem is that I worry about the legalities with it still belonging to the Havanese Forum. Does that mean that that page, too, belongs to Vertical Scope?

If so, we need to agree on (or create) another site that we can all meet up to decide how to proceed if things do not get straightened out to our satisfaction here. It doesn't have to be our "permanent" home, but it needs to be a safe place for us to discuss what we want to do next. 

Does anyone have specific suggestions? If so, we can vote on them. If no one comes up with a better solution, I propose that we start a members only, moderated Yahoo Group. (I can do it if people want me to... I've done them several times before) They aren't ideal either, because they aren't nicely threaded like this forum, nor can you easily embed photos (though you can post galleries). But at least it would give us a gathering place to decide what to do next, and they are WAY more private than FB.


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## hav2 (Feb 26, 2010)

Only being a member for a little less than a year, I would hate for everyone to "scatter" and not able to find each other again. I think a fall back is a great ideal, at least for now. I would hate to lose touch with everyone that I've just come to know.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Try the Multiple Havanese Syndrome group on Facebook. Some of us are on there.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

Hi everyone,

I'm closing this thread now. I will start a new thread pertaining to some of the main things touched upon in this thread and other threads relating to concerns that you have.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

Closing now.


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