# New pics of Hanna and vet problem



## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

I haven't posted Hanna in quite a while, but here are some pics from today. It's interesting to see how her profile has changed in the last couple of months as she is getting close to 2 years old. 

On a completely different note, I just got a letter from her old vet office in Connecticut (which was a Banfield). Unfortunately, the vet there was apparantly commiting fraud so basically I am not sure if she was ever vaccinated/fully vaccinated/or given a lower dosage. That vet has been fired and will not be employed by a Banfield again. I was there for some of her vaccinations but not all. I'm almost certain she really was vaccinated but now I have to go in and get her done again. Not happy about that!

Notice in the before picture, her bad posture. It is like someone slouching in a chair. In the afters, I have her in a stack so you can see the pretty outline.

For the groom, I brushed her out, bath, blow dry, and did a quick feet and sanitary trim. It takes a lot longer to dry her now because of her longer coat, and I have to buy a big dryer to do her at home. At the moment I only wash her every couple of weeks at the salon.

Total duration of groom: 2 hours


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## whimsy (Apr 3, 2010)

gorgeous!!


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## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

It sucks about the vet! 

She is gorgeous! Nice straight back, love it!


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

She is beautiful! Great job on her!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

gorgeous!!! I'm glad Hanna was hurt or anything by the bad vet!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

She's gorgeous! In her first picture, it's just the "I know you're gonna give me a bath!" body language!ound:

As far as the vaccines are concerned, you might want to consider pulling titers rather than exposing her to possibly unneeded vaccines.


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Thanks Karen! Def don't want to give her any double doses. And I will now be requesting to be present for future vaccines.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

atsilvers27 said:


> Thanks Karen! Def don't want to give her any double doses. And I will now be requesting to be present for future vaccines.


Although you STILL wouldn't know if they were "watering" vaccines in the back room. I suppose at some point, you've just got to make the best choices you can, then trust!


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## sandypaws (Aug 8, 2012)

You're a pretty girl, Hanna, and pose so nicely.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

She looks amazing!

Stinks about that vet. What a loser! You might consider titers. That way if she is protected, you won't over do it.


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## RitaandRiley (Feb 27, 2012)

I would definitely insist they do titers. At no charge. This is their mistake and your dog shouldn't need to be over vaccinated because of it.


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## Becky Chittenden (Feb 4, 2009)

I agree, get titers done, better to be sure and not over vaccinate her. She is looking great. A more powerful dryer is beneficial, won't take 2 hours.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

I don't know another word that means georgeous but if there is another I mean it.


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## nlb (Feb 26, 2012)

How about Magnificent?


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

That is the word I meant. Magnificent!


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Thanks guys, I will ask to get titers done. 

And to think I almost shaved her during the worst of blowing coat. I really did throw up my hands and had it not been for DH intervening she would not have the coat. Also in the spring I will probably hire a professional handler and put her in a few shows, just to see how she does. She doesn't walk well on a leash but who knows, maybe in the hands of a handler I can get a few points on her. She is scheduled to be bred to GCH Kimbriel Ruffian the Perfect Storm in May. If I could have a wish list of attributes to be a great match for her, it is this dog. I'm very excited.


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## Tuss (Apr 22, 2012)

She is beautiful. How old is she?


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

She is beautiful. Really sucks about the Vet tho


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

She will be 2 at the end of the month.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Zoey wouldn't walk for me well in the ring. She stacked good. Some judges are confused about a Havanese slight rise Zoey has a good one but judges at least the ones I had were going for a very strong rise. It is hard to show during the blowing coat stage. Your lucky you have the grooming down being in the profession I can never get it to look strait and that's another thing the judges are liking the silky strait look. People are actually cheating and are using Irons to flatten the coat. If I had the money I would love to finish Zoey.


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Yes, Havanese is supposed to have a natural look. All Maltese and many Yorkies are flat ironed for show but for a Havanese to be flat ironed is either not necessary or they actually have a frizzy coat.


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

You could get her hair pretty straight with the right drier. You need a strong drier, no concentrating nozzle/cone, warm air, and brushing while drying. After that she will look like she got electrocuted, but then you brush and comb the coat, maybe even mist it, until it lays down. I will post an old pic of Hanna right after she's blow dryed.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

atsilvers27 said:


> Thanks guys, I will ask to get titers done.
> 
> And to think I almost shaved her during the worst of blowing coat. I really did throw up my hands and had it not been for DH intervening she would not have the coat. Also in the spring I will probably hire a professional handler and put her in a few shows, just to see how she does. She doesn't walk well on a leash but who knows, maybe in the hands of a handler I can get a few points on her. She is scheduled to be bred to GCH Kimbriel Ruffian the Perfect Storm in May. If I could have a wish list of attributes to be a great match for her, it is this dog. I'm very excited.


I think it's great that you're going to try her in the show ring again. She's beautiful, and as you said, maybe with a professional handler, she'll do better in the ring. There's a reason they're pros... They have a lot more experience than the average owner/handler!


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

atsilvers27 said:


> You could get her hair pretty straight with the right drier. You need a strong drier, no concentrating nozzle/cone, warm air, and brushing while drying. After that she will look like she got electrocuted, but then you brush and comb the coat, maybe even mist it, until it lays down. I will post an old pic of Hanna right after she's blow dried.


 I have a strong dryer but its a cool air and its so loud it hurts my ears. Zoey gets freaked out by it . I don't understand if they are suppose to be shown natural why cant the judges except their slightly wavy coat. It would be so much kinder to the dogs. Their are a lot of politics to showing that I don't like. To be a reputable Havanese Breeder and finish your dogs one really needs to be forking out so much money. Or have a really exceptional Havanese with all the right stuff. I cant imagine any dog really liking the continual grooming. I would enjoy showing more if I didn't feel so bad for my dog. I liked the hobby with the exception of all the grooming. Karen's right about the handler that's another political aspect of showing I don't like.
Their has been a question in my mind for awhile now about not breeding in tell a Havanese has gotten its championship. I cant imagine their being enough litters to handle all the people who want a Havanese.It does make sense to just have the best dogs breeding to in better the breed. I don't know how to study the numbers to try to figure out how many show havanese females their are in the right age group. And if each had one litter a year how many Havanese would their be? This probably isn't the right trend for me to be asking this question. I have been afraid to bring up the subject. But it sounds as tho you are going ahead with breeding with or with out a championship. And as long as you are doing all the health testing and are working with your experienced Breeder I think that's fine. My one question because I have thought about it is how can you work and have a litter of puppy's?


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Suzi, the same way women work and have children. You give up sleep, recreation, etc and besides puppies are easier than children. The mama dog does most of the work. lol


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Luciledodd said:


> Suzi, the same way women work and have children. You give up sleep, recreation, etc and besides puppies are easier than children. The mama dog does most of the work. lol


 I want puppy's so bad Ive decided to wait to have Zoey spayed.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Suzi, don't breed Zoey. You don't have the resources for the health testing and the stud fee, vet bills etc. Call your local shelters and ask to foster the next dog that comes in with puppies or cat with kittens. I fostered two mama cats and 7 kittens a few years back. I got to keep them until they were 12 weeks old--long enough. They were beginning to be destructive by that time. But I got to hold them and play with them and thoroughly enjoyed the experience. And the nice thing is the shelters provide the vacs and food. It is sorta like I was at 40, I wanted another baby. Thankfully I didn't have another one and now I have way to many grandchildren. lol


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> Karen's right about the handler that's another political aspect of showing I don't like.


I'd like to further explain what I said. While I know there are certainly some politics involved, there are at the top of ANY sport, I did NOT meant that Hannah's mom should have a pro handle her because of political reasons. I know LOTS of owner/breeders who have put their titles on their own dogs doing all their own handling. BUT it takes time and experience to know how to show a dog to best advantage. It also takes time and experience to get over "show ring nerves"... and those nerves telegraph INSTANTLY to your dog, making him or her less likely to behave the way you want them to. Pros have that experience. Likewise, pros know how to groom and present a dog in a way that is best going to catch the judge's eye. I suspect that is NOT a problem Hannah's mom has, but you have said many times that you struggled with it.

Hannah's mom said that Hannah doesn't walk well with her in the ring. You've said the same about Zoey. There is NOTHING "political" about that... if the dog doesn't behave, it is hard for the judge to do THEIR job. Manners count, and so does grooming. THIS is the reason, IMO, it can make sense to have a pro handle your dog.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Luciledodd said:


> Suzi, don't breed Zoey. You don't have the resources for the health testing and the stud fee, vet bills etc. Call your local shelters and ask to foster the next dog that comes in with puppies or cat with kittens. I fostered two mama cats and 7 kittens a few years back. I got to keep them until they were 12 weeks old--long enough. They were beginning to be destructive by that time. But I got to hold them and play with them and thoroughly enjoyed the experience. And the nice thing is the shelters provide the vacs and food. It is sorta like I was at 40, I wanted another baby. Thankfully I didn't have another one and now I have way to many grandchildren. lol


That is a FABULOUS idea, Lucile!!!

Suzi, you could do shelter puppies a real service by giving the the love and attention they need so much in their first critical weeks before going to their forever homes!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Luciledodd said:


> It is sorta like I was at 40, I wanted another baby. Thankfully I didn't have another one and now I have way to many grandchildren. lol


Ha! I felt like that when my older one was approaching his first birthday... I missed my tiny baby. (and DH was lobbying HEAVILY for another) So, we had another one. THEN I got smart, and made DH go have his "little operation" before those hormones started kicking in when the younger one turned one!ound:


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

krandall said:


> That is a FABULOUS idea, Lucile!!!
> 
> Suzi, you could do shelter puppies a real service by giving the the love and attention they need so much in their first critical weeks before going to their forever homes!!!


 That is a good idea! I wounder if you have to be a stay home mom?


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Suzi said:


> I have a strong dryer but its a cool air and its so loud it hurts my ears. Zoey gets freaked out by it . I don't understand if they are suppose to be shown natural why cant the judges except their slightly wavy coat. It would be so much kinder to the dogs. Their are a lot of politics to showing that I don't like. To be a reputable Havanese Breeder and finish your dogs one really needs to be forking out so much money. Or have a really exceptional Havanese with all the right stuff. I cant imagine any dog really liking the continual grooming. I would enjoy showing more if I didn't feel so bad for my dog. I liked the hobby with the exception of all the grooming. Karen's right about the handler that's another political aspect of showing I don't like.
> Their has been a question in my mind for awhile now about not breeding in tell a Havanese has gotten its championship. I cant imagine their being enough litters to handle all the people who want a Havanese.It does make sense to just have the best dogs breeding to in better the breed. I don't know how to study the numbers to try to figure out how many show havanese females their are in the right age group. And if each had one litter a year how many Havanese would their be? This probably isn't the right trend for me to be asking this question. I have been afraid to bring up the subject. But it sounds as tho you are going ahead with breeding with or with out a championship. And as long as you are doing all the health testing and are working with your experienced Breeder I think that's fine. My one question because I have thought about it is how can you work and have a litter of puppy's?


Suzi,

You have a lot in this post so let me try to cover most of it:

1. It just sounds like you don't have the experience for drying a coat. If a new bather at PetSmart can properly blow out a thick curly poodle coat, you can blow out your Havanese coat. You just have to be persistant. If you are within driving range of Zoey's breeder, have him/her groom Zoey while you watch. Then try to repicate at your home.

2. As far as grooming not being nice to dogs, that's bologne. With the right temperment and proper handling, a relatively calmish dog can take a lot of grooming. My Hanna lays on her side perfectly still for me to comb out each section of her, but that is only because I stay on top of the coat and do not let mats form. But if you only brush out your blowing-coat dog once every three days instead of twice a day and you are tugging on mats as you have struggled with, yes, that is torturous to dogs.

3. Dogs in the show ring need to look their best. A Havanese with a wavy coat texture to a judge looks like it was not groomed properly, as even poodles with their genuine curls will have straight hair after grooming.

4. You appear to be saying that I am being irresponsible for breeding my dog before having a championship title, however you and me both know that not every dog with a "CH" should be bred, and a dog that doesn't, doesn't necessarily mean that it shouldn't. I also find it strange that I should be getting lectured to about responsible breeding by you, who for all intents and purposes was keen on breeding Mady, your first Havanese, whose hair fell out, has dwarf legs, comes from a backyard breeder, is not a show prospect, and was not spayed until quite recently. I am already catching some flack for deciding to breed my dog, this coming from people who insist that all breeders are criminals because of the shelter population. I don't mind getting asked questions but the suggestion from you of all people, that I am irresponsible for breeding Hanna, is rich.

I can't upload Hanna's blown-out picture right now, but basically she looks electrocuted. I have to brush, comb and mist her for about 20 minutes until the hair lays down nicely and I get the above after photos of her.

Showing might have a lot of politics, but if you can't handle or groom the dog well, the dog will not win anything. You say Maddy won't walk well, you might want to hire a handler that grooms as well.

I guess since I have to explain myself, I will add that I am going on a summer leave at my employment to stay home with my boys before they head off to Kindergarten next September, and to be home with the puppies.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Sorry I didn't mean to make it sound that way. I was actually talking about my feelings towards showing . The only thing I said towards you was that I think its fine to breed before a championship. I was only wondering about the time involved when a person works because that's why I'm not doing it.
Funny how people can get so defensive and then attack I didn't appreciate that at all. Maddie doesn't have Dwarf legs.


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Suzi said:


> Their has been a question in my mind for awhile now about not breeding in tell a Havanese has gotten its championship. I cant imagine their being enough litters to handle all the people who want a Havanese.It does make sense to just have the best dogs breeding to in better the breed. I don't know how to study the numbers to try to figure out how many show havanese females their are in the right age group. And if each had one litter a year how many Havanese would their be? This probably isn't the right trend for me to be asking this question. I have been afraid to bring up the subject. But it sounds as tho you are going ahead with breeding with or with out a championship.


I don't know what other way to take this than saying my dog isn't fit for breeding. But then after that you back off of it and say as long as I do the health testing it's ok? Since when are you an authority on breeding, especially with your endless documentation and postings on this same forum all about Mady, how you suspected her mother was dwarf-legged, and her too, how her hair fell out, how you want to breed puppies from her, how many people several times over have strongly advised you not to, and on and on. And to top it all off, now you're saying she is in fact not yet spayed? You're still toying with the idea of breeding from her?

Look, I am not going to get pulled into the weeds with you, but first of all, with your track record you shouldn't be making comments like the above, and second, if you don't want people to know certain things about your dog, don't post a novel about it! I respect the advice from people with experience that have gone before me, but this is not the case with you.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

atsilvers27 said:


> I don't know what other way to take this than saying my dog isn't fit for breeding. But then after that you back off of it and say as long as I do the health testing it's ok? Since when are you an authority on breeding, especially with your endless documentation and postings on this same forum all about Mady, how you suspected her mother was dwarf-legged, and her too, how her hair fell out, how you want to breed puppies from her, how many people several times over have strongly advised you not to, and on and on. And to top it all off, now you're saying she is in fact not yet spayed? You're still toying with the idea of breeding from her?
> 
> Look, I am not going to get pulled into the weeds with you, but first of all, with your track record you shouldn't be making comments like the above, and second, if you don't want people to know certain things about your dog, don't post a novel about it! I respect the advice from people with experience that have gone before me, but this is not the case with you.[/quot


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Suzi said:


> I have a strong dryer but its a cool air and its so loud it hurts my ears. Zoey gets freaked out by it . I don't understand if they are suppose to be shown natural why cant the judges except their slightly wavy coat. It would be so much kinder to the dogs. Their are a lot of politics to showing that I don't like. To be a reputable Havanese Breeder and finish your dogs one really needs to be forking out so much money. Or have a really exceptional Havanese with all the right stuff. I cant imagine any dog really liking the continual grooming. I would enjoy showing more if I didn't feel so bad for my dog. I liked the hobby with the exception of all the grooming. Karen's right about the handler that's another political aspect of showing I don't like.
> Their has been a question in my mind for awhile now about not breeding in tell a Havanese has gotten its championship. I cant imagine their being enough litters to handle all the people who want a Havanese.It does make sense to just have the best dogs breeding to in better the breed. I don't know how to study the numbers to try to figure out how many show havanese females their are in the right age group. And if each had one litter a year how many Havanese would their be? This probably isn't the right trend for me to be asking this question. I have been afraid to bring up the subject. But it sounds as tho you are going ahead with breeding with or with out a championship. And as long as you are doing all the health testing and are working with your experienced Breeder I think that's fine. My one question because I have thought about it is how can you work and have a litter of puppy's?


 Why do you feel that was attaching you It had nothing to do with you and your decision. You are way too defensive and very mean.


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## Tuss (Apr 22, 2012)

Suzi said:


> That is a good idea! I wounder if you have to be a stay home mom?


Every organization has different criteria. I applied to do this one year when i was a student (i was just doing research and could work from home). I met all their criteria except for a "fenced in backyard" I have no idea why you would need a fenced in yard to foster young puppies, but that was one of their criteria so i was turned down. Instead I went to the shelter and helped with the puppies there. It was still great; gave me the "puppy fix" without the responsibility. I was not in a position to own a dog at that point in my life but I was so lonely and wanted one so bad.

I would definitely look into this in your area. Call your local shelters and rescue organizations and see if they need help with puppies. Springtime is the usual season when they need fosters.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I wish you were closer to me. Hanna always looks magnificent when you groom her. They do change as they grow up and the look is somehow more adult. She's beautiful!

I'm so sorry to hear about the vet. Come to think of it, I have been present for all vaccinations. Scary to have to worry about that, in addition to everything else.


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## Pixiesmom (Jul 31, 2008)

Wow what a beauty! 
So sorry about your old vet. They should pay for you to get titers run for Hanna. I can't understand why someone would get all that education and become a vet to flush it down the toilet with stupidity and greed.


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

I agree. My DH and FIL were laughing at me when I said, "I don't understand... he was so nice!" Exactly. But Karen is right, even if I were present for every vaccination it could still be a watered down serum. At some point I just have to trust again.


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## Pixiesmom (Jul 31, 2008)

I hope you find a vet you love and trust. I heart our vet, and you can just tell how much he cares about my dogs.


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## Tuss (Apr 22, 2012)

The allegations could be false as well. You'll never know. I would get the titers; she is probably protected even with watered down vaccine.


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

I'll let everyone know what happens.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tuss said:


> The allegations could be false as well. You'll never know. I would get the titers; she is probably protected even with watered down vaccine.


That was my thought too. By this point, whether she got watered down vaccine or none at all, she may have had enough natural exposure, especially being in and out of a grooming salon regularly, that she may very well have built up plenty of immunity on her own.

The other weird thing is that this happened at Banfield. In a private practice, I could see how an unethical vet could save some money by either not giving or diluting vaccines. But I suspect that Banfield vets are on payroll. In which case, what's the incentie? Also, in all the practices I've been to, it's is more often techs that give the actual injections, just like it's usually a nurse who does it at the pediatricians office. The whole thing is strange.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

krandall said:


> I'd like to further explain what I said. While I know there are certainly some politics involved, there are at the top of ANY sport, I did NOT meant that Hannah's mom should have a pro handle her because of political reasons. I know LOTS of owner/breeders who have put their titles on their own dogs doing all their own handling. BUT it takes time and experience to know how to show a dog to best advantage. It also takes time and experience to get over "show ring nerves"... and those nerves telegraph INSTANTLY to your dog, making him or her less likely to behave the way you want them to. Pros have that experience. Likewise, pros know how to groom and present a dog in a way that is best going to catch the judge's eye. I suspect that is NOT a problem Hannah's mom has, but you have said many times that you struggled with it.
> 
> Hannah's mom said that Hannah doesn't walk well with her in the ring. You've said the same about Zoey. There is NOTHING "political" about that... if the dog doesn't behave, it is hard for the judge to do THEIR job. Manners count, and so does grooming. THIS is the reason, IMO, it can make sense to have a pro handle your dog.


 For some reason my posts are being miss read . As I have said I'm bad at writing. I was just stating my views on showing. I have no problem with anyone hiring a handler. They diffidently have a huge advantage over a novice and also experienced owner handlers. That's the politics I was talking about. I went to two conformation classes a week for about a year. Her trainers tried so many different ways to get her to walk. I probably should have kept up with them and by now Zoey and I would be trained. She did have one nice walk and It felt really good. The main reason I quit was a financial reason. So I stopped because of the cost to hire a handler.I was told by many members of my Havanese club that she would finish. 
I don't think anything I wrote deserved to have myself and Maddie be attacked by atsilvers27. Dwarf legs! Writing novels, Breeding Maddie, Wow.


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