# Discouraging undesired behaviour



## Aiste (Mar 2, 2017)

:wave: 

I browsed through the older topics and did not exactly fin the right match, so Im posting a new one and hoping for your advice! :help:

Mocha is 3,5 months old and she's the sweetest little thing - she's a very fast learner, knows 5 different commands already, had no problems with potty training, goes to work with me and everyone loves her there too. BUT there's one thing that's not coming along so smoothly - it's discouragement from doing things we don't want her to do. 

I realise that this is probably because she's still a puppy and is teething, but she's very persistent with chewing on several things - my UGGs, a few plants, toilet paper and 1 t-shirt of mine. We never shout at her or smack her, but use only praising for the good behaviour (e.g. letting go of things when we ask), we don't pull anything from her like we do when playing tug, yet our NOs seem to be working for just like 10 seconds. She lets go/stops doing something, once we turn around, she goes and does the same thing again. She even had a light poisoning from the ZZ plant she chewed on this week  

I continue to believe positive reinforcement is key, but would like to hear your thoughts on how to best discourage her from doing things that she's not supposed to be doing? 

thank you!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Well, there are several issues. First, it is MUCH easier to teach a dog to DO something than it is to teach them NOT to do something. Scond, it is unlikely that she has any real I dea what "No!" Means, and even less idea what she should do instead. Right now, the word is only working as an interruptor. Last, of course, is that she IS a very young puppy, and doing EXACTLY what puppies do... explore their world with their mouths.

The most important and effective way to deal with it for now is to manage it, by either confining her or keeping these things out of her readh. (ESPECIALLY anything that could harm her, like toxic house plants!!!) Then you can begin to teach her both "drop it" and "leave it" commands that will stand you in good stead later.

But for the time being, you need to keep her and anything that could harm her (or that she could harm!) physically separated!


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## Cassandra (Dec 29, 2015)

Removing objects from reach is the only realistic option at this chewing stage...oh, toilet paper is going to be a high value target for a long time. Cassie still checks one of our bathrooms regularly to see if someone left a roll for her. There have been some "cute" pictures posted of Havanese paper trails.


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## Jojofergy (Jun 27, 2016)

My puppy is 22 weeks I think? Maybe 23 lol I lost count if I go into the bathroom and don't pay enough attention the first thing he goes for is the tp lol he's addicted to it  I just try to keep the door shut and watch him if he goes in with me to avoid a big tp mess 
He also loves to "steal" anything he can reach off the coffee table just have to keep everything out of his reach

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Aiste (Mar 2, 2017)

thanks everyone for the comments! I did notice toilet paper is THE thing for most dogs :grin2:

I wasn't aware of what a ZZ pant can do for a dog if eaten, so only removed it after the incident - instinctually I knew right away it was the plant once she started vomiting. Luckily, she didn't get much of it, so no real damage was done. After this happened to Mocha I sent out a list of dangerous house plants to all the dog owners I know, I wish someone would've warned me too. 

I realize that at this stage our duty as owners is to make sure she doesn't reach anything thats either dangerous to her or the thing )) things are a bit complicated by the fact that we just moved into our new apartment and while waiting for the walk-in closet to be finished, we have a lot stuff in open hangers with shelves at the bottom of it - gold mine for chewy stuff ) 

What's really interesting though is that we seem to have taught her not to chew on several things like the kitchen towel, door mat or even human face (hands and feet are still under attack pretty often) - these were part of her favourites too, but the things I listed in the original post seem to be too precious to give up. 
What commands do you use when training our dogs to stop doing something - do you words or maybe have come up with some special sound commands for example shhh if you want them to keep silent?


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## jingerb (Aug 9, 2015)

Stanley's trainer has taught the concept of "exchange for item of equal value," which helps me remember it! So, initially teaching him "drop it" by giving him a chewy or something he loves, holding a similar or same-type chewy in my other hand so he can see it. As soon as he drops the first I say "yes" (or you could click) and give him the alternate. Keep doing that for a couple of days. Then add the phrase "drop it" when he drops the first item. Do that for a good long while! :smile2: THEN, I always make it a point to have a few treats on me so that if he grabs something he shouldn't in the yard (for example he LOVES to pull up huge long bermuda grass runners, and can do so with remarkable speed >) I say "drop it," and the moment he does I say "yes" and treat him. Now he will sometimes drop it on his own even without a treat...yayyyyy, success! 
Around the house I just have an appropriate chewy or bone nearby at all times to give him when he starts to head for the wrong thing, and try to never leave him near anything inappropriate he could pick up.
I hope this helps. I'm not an expert by any means, but this has helped us, as Stanley is 4 1/2 months, so similar age.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Aiste said:


> What commands do you use when training our dogs to stop doing something - do you words or maybe have come up with some special sound commands for example shhh if you want them to keep silent?


It really make NO difference what specific words you use... You could make the command, "Orange Cupcake" if you wanted!!!  The important thing is that you TEACH the "drop it" and "leave it" commands separately, not when she already has something she values highly in her mouth already.

There are LOTS of YouTube tutorials on teaching "Drop it" and "Leave it", but I'm a fan of Kikopup, so I'll give you those as a starting place:


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> It really make NO difference what specific words you use... You could make the command, "Orange Cupcake" if you wanted!!!  The important thing is that you TEACH the "drop it" and "leave it" commands separately, not when she already has something she values highly in her mouth already.
> 
> There are LOTS of YouTube tutorials on teaching "Drop it" and "Leave it", but I'm a fan of Kikopup, so I'll give you those as a starting place:


Perry's been working on 'leave it' (which I think is one of the most important commands) with things he likes but sees as low value treats. I'll put a piece of carrot or apple in front of him and tell him to 'leave it' - rewarding him after a little while (once he decides to ignore it). I wish I could take some pictures though because his thought process is hysterical. First he starts with 'can I take it in my mouth', when he's told no, he thinks about it for a minute then it goes to 'can I touch it with my foot and pull it toward me'. when that's a no, then it's 'if I lie on my side and my leg happens to fall on it maybe I can pull it toward me', when that's a no, he finally gets it and decides he can wait . When the ignoring is sufficient (building up time right now because he's just started with it) then he gets a treat. It's useful, especially when we're out and there's something he wants to pick up, to tell him to leave it - or when we're in the kitchen and I drop something like an onion, to get him to leave it until I can pick it up.

Re: chewing on inappropriate things - Perry is a huge chewer, but we've been doing very well with making sure he has enough different toys around, and when he does get into something else (rarely so far) by 1) getting it out of his sight and (2) substituting one of his toys for it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> Perry's been working on 'leave it' (which I think is one of the most important commands) with things he likes but sees as low value treats. I'll put a piece of carrot or apple in front of him and tell him to 'leave it' - rewarding him after a little while (once he decides to ignore it). I wish I could take some pictures though because his thought process is hysterical. First he starts with 'can I take it in my mouth', when he's told no, he thinks about it for a minute then it goes to 'can I touch it with my foot and pull it toward me'. when that's a no, then it's 'if I lie on my side and my leg happens to fall on it maybe I can pull it toward me', when that's a no, he finally gets it and decides he can wait . When the ignoring is sufficient (building up time right now because he's just started with it) then he gets a treat. It's useful, especially when we're out and there's something he wants to pick up, to tell him to leave it - or when we're in the kitchen and I drop something like an onion, to get him to leave it until I can pick it up.


It's good that you are teaching, "Leave it"! But try NOT to say "No". "No" has very little meaning, because dogs hear it SO often... and it is not teaching WHAT to do. Also, to me, touching the item in ANY way doesn't accomplish what I want. I want "Leave it" to ALSO keep my dog safe from the oven door, the camp fire or a skunk or porcupine... in your case, I would suspect that there are also possible encounters with venomous snakes. All those things are asdangerous to a paw as they are to a mouth.

However, I would ALSO not be working on "Leave it" using known, acceptable food items like apple and carrots, even if they are lower value food items. While inhibition of movement can be taught very effectively with food items, (we call it "Doggy Zen") and can be VERY. Effective in helping teach dogs the concept of waiting and delayed reward, that is NOT the same goal as "Leave it". (Which means, in my dog vocabulary, "This is something you may not have or touch. Period. Not now and not later. If you listen to me, you will get something BETTER from me."


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

*Leave It*



krandall said:


> It's good that you are teaching, "Leave it"! But try NOT to say "No". "No" has very little meaning, because dogs hear it SO often... and it is not teaching WHAT to do. Also, to me, touching the item in ANY way doesn't accomplish what I want. I want "Leave it" to ALSO keep my dog safe from the oven door, the camp fire or a skunk or porcupine... in your case, I would suspect that there are also possible encounters with venomous snakes. All those things are asdangerous to a paw as they are to a mouth.
> 
> However, I would ALSO not be working on "Leave it" using known, acceptable food items like apple and carrots, even if they are lower value food items. While inhibition of movement can be taught very effectively with food items, (we call it "Doggy Zen") and can be VERY. Effective in helping teach dogs the concept of waiting and delayed reward, that is NOT the same goal as "Leave it". (Which means, in my dog vocabulary, "This is something you may not have or touch. Period. Not now and not later. If you listen to me, you will get something BETTER from me."


Hi Karen

Thanks for the advise, but I've taught 'leave it' to several other dogs very successfully using this method. Perhaps we're using a different interpretation of the terms - which, since I'm not working with a dog someone else has trained, is fine in my opinion. Your version of 'leave it' is not the definition I'm teaching. Leave it, in my definition, is that you can't take it yourself (or you can't take it until I tell you you can) - if I choose to give it to you later (or allow you to take it later) that's my prerogative. For things I don't want him to ever touch I'm using 'yucky'. (maybe juvenile, but works for us).

I do understand what you mean about no, what do you use instead as a correction when they're not quite getting it? I understand that you say that they hear it a lot but don't know what it means, but in my experience they do 'get' that what they're doing isn't quite what you're asking for so you can work on what you do want.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

I was taught to use "uh uh" (or however you spell that - the sound you make when shaking your head no) to show disapproval because "no" can be so overused as to become meaningless. "No" is also used by random people around your dog, so if you have another phrase for disapproval, it conveys that you (the owner) mean business. I agree with Karen about LEAVE IT being used in the context of never being able to have the item (or person or other dog). I use the command WAIT if I want her to wait for me to release her to the treat/toy. (Have you ever been walking your dog when another person walking her dog tells her dog to LEAVE IT in reference to you? Even though I get it, I always feel a bit slighted in that situation. I'm sure I would feel worse if the person said YUCKY about us. Just a thought.)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> Hi Karen
> 
> Thanks for the advise, but I've taught 'leave it' to several other dogs very successfully using this method. Perhaps we're using a different interpretation of the terms - which, since I'm not working with a dog someone else has trained, is fine in my opinion. Your version of 'leave it' is not the definition I'm teaching. Leave it, in my definition, is that you can't take it yourself (or you can't take it until I tell you you can) - if I choose to give it to you later (or allow you to take it later) that's my prerogative. For things I don't want him to ever touch I'm using 'yucky'. (maybe juvenile, but works for us).
> 
> I do understand what you mean about no, what do you use instead as a correction when they're not quite getting it? I understand that you say that they hear it a lot but don't know what it means, but in my experience they do 'get' that what they're doing isn't quite what you're asking for so you can work on what you do want.


Of course, you are right, you can give any concept any "word" cue you want. If "Yucky" is yours, that's fine. I think it is VERY important that anyone else reading this understand that these are two different concepts, no matter what words we put on them. One is a matter of delay, the other is a matter of "don't touch EVER!" That differentiation can be a matter of life and death, or at least harm. Since you used the example of onions on the floor, which is certainly harmful, not just an "I don't want you to get that right now," it wasn't clear that you were making that differentiation.

As far as "no" is concerned, if you are consistent in its use as an "interrupter", and are clear in your own mind that it is JUST that, (and don't use it in other circumstances) fine. The problem is that "no" is such an ingrained part of our vocabulary, it's hard NOT to be using it in other, less appropriate, or totally unintended ways. Many people THINK their dog understands "no" as a command, and that they "know better" when they momentarily stop whatever they are doing. As a result, they WAY over-use it, then get frustrated that the dog, first, doesn't ever start doing the "RIGHT" thing, and second, the dog eventually just starts ignoring the word. (just like kids do  ) If I need an "emergency brake" interrupter, I use a loud, sharp, "EHHH!!!" which tends to make almost any dog stop what they are doing and look at you. (In which case, you redirect them or grab them, whichever is more appropriate)

In formal training, my "cheerful interrupter" when they are getting something wrong, is just to gently step in toward them, and in a cheerful voice say, "Let's try again!"  If they are confused, I often "put a cookie on it", meaning I give them a single cookie to show my appreciation for their attempt, even if they got it wrong. This keeps them engaged and TRYING, when they are working on learning some difficult concepts. So that is another form of interrupter.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ShamaMama said:


> I was taught to use "uh uh" (or however you spell that - the sound you make when shaking your head no) to show disapproval because "no" can be so overused as to become meaningless. "No" is also used by random people around your dog, so if you have another phrase for disapproval, it conveys that you (the owner) mean business. I agree with Karen about LEAVE IT being used in the context of never being able to have the item (or person or other dog). I use the command WAIT if I want her to wait for me to release her to the treat/toy. (Have you ever been walking your dog when another person walking her dog tells her dog to LEAVE IT in reference to you? Even though I get it, I always feel a bit slighted in that situation. I'm sure I would feel worse if the person said YUCKY about us. Just a thought.)


HA! I don't worry a WHOLE lot what other people are thinking about my dog's training or cues, but THAT is funny! :laugh:


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## Aiste (Mar 2, 2017)

thank you everyone! Everyone's thoughts and this discussion has been really helpful! I'll definitely watch the tutorials you shared, krandall! We are doing the "exchange for an equal/better alternative" training, seems to work at that single time, but she gets back to what she was doing the second I turn around. I'm starting to think that she already understands what's being asked of her, but also she knows that doing things she's not supposed to will GET MY ATTENTION, so I'm also leaning back towards Jan Fennell Amichien Bonding ideas, where she underlines the parallel to the alpha behaviour in a wolf pack. Dogs dont use commands at each other, they use their body language and eyes to convey messages, so I feel like I should be looking for ways to communicate with Mocha without words too. However, I dont yet see a way to do so when she/something/someone else is in danger. :/ 

Do you find the behaviourist science useful when working with your dogs? say, ignoring the undesirable behaviour (e.g. jumping, pulling on your clothing) to help convey the message?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Aiste said:


> thank you everyone! Everyone's thoughts and this discussion has been really helpful! I'll definitely watch the tutorials you shared, krandall! We are doing the "exchange for an equal/better alternative" training, seems to work at that single time, but she gets back to what she was doing the second I turn around. I'm starting to think that she already understands what's being asked of her, but also she knows that doing things she's not supposed to will GET MY ATTENTION, so I'm also leaning back towards Jan Fennell Amichien Bonding ideas, where she underlines the parallel to the alpha behaviour in a wolf pack. Dogs dont use commands at each other, they use their body language and eyes to convey messages, so I feel like I should be looking for ways to communicate with Mocha without words too. However, I dont yet see a way to do so when she/something/someone else is in danger. :/
> 
> Do you find the behaviourist science useful when working with your dogs? say, ignoring the undesirable behaviour (e.g. jumping, pulling on your clothing) to help convey the message?


Well, first, be VERY careful with ANY work that compares dog behavior to wolf behavior. It has been almost entirely debunked. First, dogs re NOT "miniature wolves"... the wild and feral dogs is REMARKABLY different from that of wolves. Second, it turns out that the majority of the studies of wolves that some early dog trainers based their theories on were grossly flawed. They were studies of captive wolf populations, where a number of unrelated adult wolves were thrust together in enclosures. We now know that virtually ALL wild wolf groups are families of closely related wolves, and their behavior in such circumstances is SIGNIFICANTLY different. These studies would be akin to scientists observing prison populations, then basing their theories for human behavior on those studies. Not very accurate, even for the species, without then ALSO trying to extrapolate between that species and another!

Also, the idea of an "alpha" wolf is just wrong. (and is completely out-dated... any modern animal behaviorist knows this) There are definitely TIMES when a specific animal (wolf OR dog) will act "dominant" over another, or try to become dominant, these times are extremely situational, and based on available resources and the value a specific dog puts on them.

For instance, neither of my bitches would even CONSIDER challenging Kodi for food. Food is important to him, and they know it. There is ALWAYS enough to go around, so there is no good reason to even try to challenge him. He never acts the LEAST bit aggressive about it, but if he moves in on something, they just move away. OTOH, the two GIRLS will get into mild tiffs over a particular morsel... I think because neither is clearly dominant in that situation. Both of the girls will get a bit "resource guard-y" about space on the bed, if allowed. One will occasionally get growly about another dog getting close to them when they cuddle with us in the evening. We don't allow this, and the "guard-y" one gets unceremoniously dumped on the floor. They learn quickly that dogs who get along are allowed on the bed, dogs that are snarky get tossed on the floor.  As a result, for the most part, they put up with each other with good grace. 

Second, dogs ABSOLUTELY know the difference between humans and other dogs, even when they are all family members. It's a GREAT thing to learn more about dog behavior, but it's NOT a good thing to try to "act" like another dog. Dogs just think that's WIERD!!! (and they're kinda right!  ) There are a number of good sources for information about the SCIENCE of dog behavior on the web, but be careful. There are also a number of sources that "talk science-y", but have no credentials and no real background in behavioral science. This website has brought together many of the top canine behaviorists in the English speaking world. While I am sure there are others too, you can be sure that when your dad or listen to anyone on these lists, you re reading/hearing cutting edge canine science: SPARCS Initative

And yes, while not everything in canine behavioral science relates directly to practical or performance dog training, I think EVERYONE who is serious about either of those beyond the most basic levels can learn something from these people... and it is just plain INTERESTING!!! Sometime what they have studied makes us change the way we think and do things, sometimes it validates things we already know, and sometimes you look at a study and think, "But wait! They didn't take xxx (often the human/dog bond) into consideration in that study!" In any case, I think it makes our relationship with our dogs much more interesting if we continue to learn and explore as we interact with them!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Aiste said:


> I'm starting to think that she already understands what's being asked of her, but also she knows that doing things she's not supposed to will GET MY ATTENTION...
> 
> Do you find the behaviourist science useful when working with your dogs? say, ignoring the undesirable behaviour (e.g. jumping, pulling on your clothing) to help convey the message?


Oh, just wanted to add...

I do NOT think that Mocha is doing these things purposefully to get your attention. She is doing what puppies do. It is TOTALLY normal puppy behavior. A lot of it will fade as she gets older, no matter what you do (as long as the behavior isn't encouraged!) but, of course, you can and should also work on lessening the behavior.

Ignoring certain behavior can be useful. For instance, if the puppy is in their crate or pen when you drive back home, and they start to make a racket, it is REALLY important to TOTALLY ignore that behavior, so that you don't reinforce it with your reaction.
Uno the other hand, it is unrealistic for you to ignore her ripping clothes, biting at hands, etc. In this cases, try to redirect her to a better choice, like chewing on a toy. If that doesn't work, put her in her pen and TOTALLY ignore her for a minute or two. Then take her out and play calmly with her. If she starts the behavior again... back in the pen. It may take a LOT of patient repetition on her part, but when she realizes that this behavior doesn't get her what she wants, (to play with you!) she WILL start to get the idea.

As far as jumping is concerned, this is something that YOU have to decide how you feel about it. It's only a "problem" if you decide it is. Honestly, both my husband and I are tall. we both LIKE our dogs to come and put their front feet up on us for patting. So we don't discourage it. When Kodi was a puppy, he would come up behind us and SLAM into the backs of our knees. For a little dog, he could almost take our legs out from under us! THAT we discouraged.  But, he also just did it less over time, just because he was growing up. The girls have never done this. In fact, I have had to put it on cue for Panda to put her front feet up on my leg, because it is important to me that she do this as a way to connect with her between exercises in formal obedience.

Only Kodi is likely to put his feet up on strangers who enter the house. When he was younger, I kept him gated away from the door until visitors had entered. At his age now (8, and obviously fully mature) he listens if I tell him, "Off", and will keep his front feet on the floor unless the visitor invites him to come up. (He's so sweet, most do!  )


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> ... Since you used the example of onions on the floor, which is certainly harmful, not just an "I don't want you to get that right now," it wasn't clear that you were making that differentiation.
> 
> As far as "no" is concerned, if you are consistent in its use as an "interrupter", and are clear in your own mind that it is JUST that, (and don't use it in other circumstances) fine. The problem is that "no" is such an ingrained part of our vocabulary, it's hard NOT to be using it in other, less appropriate, or totally unintended ways. Many people THINK their dog understands "no" as a command, and that they "know better" when they momentarily stop whatever they are doing. As a result, they WAY over-use it, then get frustrated that the dog, first, doesn't ever start doing the "RIGHT" thing, and second, the dog eventually just starts ignoring the word. (just like kids do  ) If I need an "emergency brake" interrupter, I use a loud, sharp, "EHHH!!!" which tends to make almost any dog stop what they are doing and look at you. (In which case, you redirect them or grab them, whichever is more appropriate)


You're right - I do sometimes use 'leave it' and 'yucky' interchangeably - have to be more consistent with that. However, leave it doesn't mean you will eventually get it  just that you may (not that he knows the difference between the two). Yucky means ignore it and walk on.

On the 'no' - you're right, it is over used. I do sometimes use Shama's suggestion of 'uh uh', but need to think about being more consistent with that.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> You're right - I do sometimes use 'leave it' and 'yucky' interchangeably - have to be more consistent with that. However, leave it doesn't mean you will eventually get it.


Keep in mind that dogs are terrible gamblers. That's why intermittent reinforcement works so well, once they know a behavior... Intermittent reinforcement is the STRONGEST reinforcement they can get. So if you SOMETIMES let them have the forbidden item, it will become the MOST ATTRACTIVE thing EVER!!! That is why I aim for "never" on "Leave it". That is my intent. "This is dangerous, you must NEVER touch it!" 

So your specific choice of words doesn't matter, but you really need to think through the INTENT of each of the cues you are using, and what you hope to accomplish.


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