# Going Gremlin



## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

Why does my Buddha go from being such a sweet puppy to acting like a gremlin? He does this every so often he acts like he wants to play and so I get a toy or something and he starts going crazy jumping around and snarling and trying to bite my hands? I'm sure my laughing at him only keeps it going but does anyone else have this happen. I only laugh and try to get him to stop for so long then I pick him up and put him in a chair and tell him "no bite" and he calms down but it's like he can't help himself. He used to do it more often and we actually call it Going Gremlin.


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## Pipersmom (Jul 27, 2009)

Sounds like RLH (run like hell) and is typical Havanese behavior. If you do a search of the forum, there are some cute videos. Some just run around maniacally and some do it with the growling and snarling you are describing. It's my favorite time of day 
Just stand back and enjoy!

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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

Pipersmom said:


> Sounds like RLH (run like hell) and is typical Havanese behavior. If you do a search of the forum, there are some cute videos. Some just run around maniacally and some do it with the growling and snarling you are describing. It's my favorite time of day
> Just stand back and enjoy!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Is that so? :bounce: it does seem like he just can't help it. I'm kind of glad to hear that as it is so funny. I'll have to look for those videos. I guess I can stop worrying about it and just let him get it out.


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## sprorchid (Mar 30, 2010)

wow he is uber adorable!!! 


yeah, I'm gonna need a video to believe it, lol.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

sprorchid said:


> wow he is uber adorable!!!
> 
> yeah, I'm gonna need a video to believe it, lol.


Thank you. I'll have to see if I can get a video. It seems to come out of nowhere and it turns into complete chaos. I was trying to hold him down but lord is was like wrestling a tiny wiggly snarling beast.


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## whimsy (Apr 3, 2010)

he is such a little doll!!!


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## BFrancs (May 17, 2012)

such a cutie!

ditto on the video!! would love to see him *"going gremlin"*.


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

Yep, I have gremlins too. Timmy gets a little crazy when we're almost done our morning walk when he tries to play with Mae and they're both on leashes. Mae is more inconsistent with her gremlin behavior which I think comes from being a puppy. When she does attack my hand or arm I pull it in my sleeve so she doesn't get any skin contact. I like to use this time to reinforce "no bite" when I do let her have access to my bare hand. I also love the command "kisses" which both my guys have down very well. Buddha is just the cutest, enjoy your puppy time it goes way too fast!


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## RitaandRiley (Feb 27, 2012)

He will eventually learn to control the biting portion of the game. Whenever teeth touch skin, make a high pitched yelp and withdraw from play. But otherwise the game is just play. They do sound "bigger' and "meaner" than they are. That's part of what makes it so funny!


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## Den&Barb (Dec 6, 2013)

You are just the substitute for his siblings. Puppies go crazy on each other, at least that's my experience. He's just having great fun. Just watch your fingers LOL


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## sprorchid (Mar 30, 2010)

I don't remember exactly where I read it, probably here and Dave will chime in, on how to teach puppies bite inhibition. something about putting your finger back, in the farther molars, and letting them bite down and you let out an Icckkkk!

If you don't want your pup to attack hands or put teeth on skin, then you need to either give him a time out or walk away and not let him follow you when it happens.

my little ollie, my first small dog, he is the only dog I've had that I hand play with, and he only does it with me. he has done it with one or two favorite people but only after he was sure that's what they wanted to do.

He saves his gremlin side for when he plays with his big brother Oz (85 lbs).


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## Ruth4Havs (May 13, 2013)

Buddha is so cute! RLHing or nudging happens alot when Chester is very energetic or wants to play.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

Den&Barb said:


> You are just the substitute for his siblings. Puppies go crazy on each other, at least that's my experience. He's just having great fun. Just watch your fingers LOL


On Buddhas first vet visit the dr. did a kind of test. She picked him up and cuddled him in her arms with his belly up and pet his belly to see if he would lick or bite her hands or both he did both licking her hands first she said that was a good thing. I asked her why he mostly only bites me she said it was probably because I am the one who spends the most time with him and he views me as a caretaker and a playmate. So thanks for that reminder. I had forgotten that she said that.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

Ruth4Havs said:


> Buddha is so cute! RLHing or nudging happens alot when Chester is very energetic or wants to play.


Last evening was the first time in a little bit that he did go gremlin. He was very energetic all day yesterday because the day before yesterday he slept a lot. I am working on taking him for walks to get some of that energy out but he isn't very interested in it. He keeps stopping and looking at me like "what are we doing"? It takes a long...time to go a short distance.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

RitaandRiley said:


> He will eventually learn to control the biting portion of the game. Whenever teeth touch skin, make a high pitched yelp and withdraw from play. But otherwise the game is just play. They do sound "bigger' and "meaner" than they are. That's part of what makes it so funny!


I tried that "yelping" when he would bite my hands that's what the Vet Dr. Told me to do. When I did that he seemed to take it as a cue that we were having fun and it made him more wound up. He would stop and sit down and give a wild eye look and dive at me.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

I told my son that I was thinking about getting him false teeth then I could take them out after he eats. 

He is getting better for the most part at least he doesn't jump on my shoulder and pull my hair anymore.


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

He's such a cute little stuffed animal.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

gelbergirl said:


> He's such a cute little stuffed animal.


Thanks. We almost named him Beanie.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Clara said:


> I tried that "yelping" when he would bite my hands that's what the Vet Dr. Told me to do. When I did that he seemed to take it as a cue that we were having fun and it made him more wound up. He would stop and sit down and give a wild eye look and dive at me.


Then you need to immediately, but gently, put him in his ex-pen or crate. Don't say a word, just do it and walk away. Leave him there for 30 seconds or so, then let him out to play again. Do the same thing every time he bits and won't stop if you squeal. It can take a number of repetitions, depending on how much "attitude" the puppy has. (ask Swaye about living through a young puppy with REAL attitude and coming out the other end! ) But eventually, they WILL get the message. He really WANTS to be with you, so he will eventually catch on to the fact agh if he bites, you won't play, and he ends up in "solitary". If he plays nice, he gets to stay with you! 

Part of this, again, is developmental, and will wane on its own. But part is that he needs to learn to use his jaws appropriately. (i.e. not on people! )


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

krandall said:


> Then you need to immediately, but gently, put him in his ex-pen or crate. Don't say a word, just do it and walk away. Leave him there for 30 seconds or so, then let him out to play again. Do the same thing every time he bits and won't stop if you squeal. It can take a number of repetitions, depending on how much "attitude" the puppy has. (ask Swaye about living through a young puppy with REAL attitude and coming out the other end! ) But eventually, they WILL get the message. He really WANTS to be with you, so he will eventually catch on to the fact agh if he bites, you won't play, and he ends up in "solitary". If he plays nice, he gets to stay with you!
> 
> Part of this, again, is developmental, and will wane on its own. But part is that he needs to learn to use his jaws appropriately. (i.e. not on people! )


Putting him in his crate is exactly what I wanted to do because he clearly wasn't responding to any of my attempts of immediately giving him an appropriate chew toy. I was keeping one handy at all times but a lot of people say don't use his crate for punishment. I also tried restraining him until he calmed down but that rarely worked it just made him jump up and charge me.


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## tra_po (Aug 14, 2013)

LOL! at the Gremlin picture, too!!!


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## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

Clara said:


> I tried that "yelping" when he would bite my hands that's what the Vet Dr. Told me to do. When I did that he seemed to take it as a cue that we were having fun and it made him more wound up. He would stop and sit down and give a wild eye look and dive at me.


I found with Leo that yelping wasn't effective but that picking him up and putting him in his expen for a couple minutes worked not the first time at the beginning but very soon he learned that if he put teeth on human skin (hands, ankles, anything) play instantly stopped and he had to go in his expen for a couple minutes. We did this EVERY time and it didn't take more than a couple weeks before we had no more issues with Leo trying to nip at our hands. He transferred this to other people and just doesn't put his teeth on human skin even when he plays with children.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

Pucks104 said:


> I found with Leo that yelping wasn't effective but that picking him up and putting him in his expen for a couple minutes worked not the first time at the beginning but very soon he learned that if he put teeth on human skin (hands, ankles, anything) play instantly stopped and he had to go in his expen for a couple minutes. We did this EVERY time and it didn't take more than a couple weeks before we had no more issues with Leo trying to nip at our hands. He transferred this to other people and just doesn't put his teeth on human skin even when he plays with children.


At this point I think Buddha is conflicted about it. He kind of goes through episodes of hand biting. It's funny because I can tell by the way he looks at me if he's going to go there. He really does think of me as his playmate he seems to look to me for his most vigorous play. I myself get a little conflicted because sometimes he will start out licking my hands and then he just can't help but take a bite. Sometimes he kind of just mouthes my hands not really biting and not really licking. I just don't know if I need to react every single time with putting him in the crate. Sometimes when he bites my hands I just just say "it's play time" and then I engage him in a 5 to 10 minute dedicated play time with toys, balls, yarn and goofy talk.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

tra_po said:


> LOL! at the Gremlin picture, too!!!


Well that is what he kind of looks like when he goes gremlin. I'm so glad to know that this type behavior is part of the Havanese personality. It was starting to turn into my dirty little secret that I had chosen a dog with deep issues.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Clara said:


> Putting him in his crate is exactly what I wanted to do because he clearly wasn't responding to any of my attempts of immediately giving him an appropriate chew toy. I was keeping one handy at all times but a lot of people say don't use his crate for punishment. I also tried restraining him until he calmed down but that rarely worked it just made him jump up and charge me.


Using the crate to confine him isn't the "punishment" (as long as you do it gently). The punishment is being separated from you. As long as the dog has plenty of positive associations with his crate or pen, it won't be a problem. It's like sending a child to their room to calm down. You're not locking him in there indefinitely&#8230; it's only for 30 seconds or so.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Clara said:


> At this point I think Buddha is conflicted about it. He kind of goes through episodes of hand biting. It's funny because I can tell by the way he looks at me if he's going to go there. He really does think of me as his playmate he seems to look to me for his most vigorous play. I myself get a little conflicted because sometimes he will start out licking my hands and then he just can't help but take a bite. Sometimes he kind of just mouthes my hands not really biting and not really licking. I just don't know if I need to react every single time with putting him in the crate. Sometimes when he bites my hands I just just say "it's play time" and then I engage him in a 5 to 10 minute dedicated play time with toys, balls, yarn and goofy talk.


Remember when you talked about setting boundaries? This is where YOU need to decide what your boundaries are. It's what YOU feel comfortable with. If it's OK with you for him to put his mouth on you, but not to bite down, it's fine to set the criteria there. (that's kind of what I did) If you don't want him to EVER put an open mouth on you, that's OK, just be consistent.

I don't particularly care for "licky" dogs, so Kodi lean red not not lick, but to show affection in other ways. As you said in another post, you are the human, and you get to decide on the rules in your house.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

krandall said:


> Remember when you talked about setting boundaries? This is where YOU need to decide what your boundaries are. It's what YOU feel comfortable with. If it's OK with you for him to put his mouth on you, but not to bite down, it's fine to set the criteria there. (that's kind of what I did) If you don't want him to EVER put an open mouth on you, that's OK, just be consistent.
> 
> I don't particularly care for "licky" dogs, so Kodi lean red not not lick, but to show affection in other ways. As you said in another post, you are the human, and you get to decide on the rules in your house.


I just don't want him to think biting is ok. I don't really mind if he bites me now and then in the course of play but I don't want him biting other people, ever. So I guess the best thing to do is keep on this and look at his behavior in light of everyone in the family and visitors.


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

I used the yelping method. Sometimes I did a time-out for 20 seconds (ignored him for 10 seconds, praised him for being quiet the remainder of the time).
Also, does he know other dogs? A gentle grown dog will remind him of dog manners.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

gelbergirl said:


> I used the yelping method. Sometimes I did a time-out for 20 seconds (ignored him for 10 seconds, praised him for being quiet the remainder of the time).
> Also, does he know other dogs? A gentle grown dog will remind him of dog manners.


He knows my sons Chocolate Lab who is just over 2 years old. I don't think Parker, the lab, is very gentle but I don't have any experience with watching dogs play and knowing what is gentle.

I have put Buddha in his crate a couple of times for biting and it really only takes less than a minute. When I put him in it for biting he looked very sad and bewildered. I guess the key is not leaving him in there so long that he forgets what just happened.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

We'll bewildered probably wasn't the right word. He looked concerned. Well let's just say I got his attention.


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## sprorchid (Mar 30, 2010)

interesting. I was skeptical of the time out method for dogs, but it does work. up to 3 minutes.

also, you can try a yelp and turn your back for 30 seconds to 1 minutes.

When I yelp, Ollie licks my hand, and stops biting so they can learn.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Clara said:


> He knows my sons Chocolate Lab who is just over 2 years old. I don't think Parker, the lab, is very gentle but I don't have any experience with watching dogs play and knowing what is gentle.
> 
> I have put Buddha in his crate a couple of times for biting and it really only takes less than a minute. When I put him in it for biting he looked very sad and bewildered. I guess the key is not leaving him in there so long that he forgets what just happened.


That is EXACTLY right!!! :thumb:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

sprorchid said:


> interesting. I was skeptical of the time out method for dogs, but it does work. up to 3 minutes.
> 
> also, you can try a yelp and turn your back for 30 seconds to 1 minutes.
> 
> When I yelp, Ollie licks my hand, and stops biting so they can learn.


Yes, for a lot of puppies, a yelp, and even just turning your head away while disengaging can be enough. Walking away is enough for others. But for the ones that think that walking away gives them license to chase and nip heels, the ex-pen, crate or a closed door (if you have a puppy-proof place to do that) can be the only way to get the message across.

For Kodi, simply yelping and turning our heads was enough. But he was with his sibling and adult relatives until 11 weeks, and I think he learned good bite inhibition from them, because he RARELY used his teeth too hard. He's also a VERY soft dog. Even a mild correction when he's working (like stepping into his space if he stands up during a stay) can really shut him down.

There are some very good reasons for getting puppies at 8 weeks, but I've seen over and over on this board that the puppies that come home at 8 weeks often need a lot more HUMAN training on bite inhibition.


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## Carli (Nov 5, 2013)

Oh my god thats so funny you posted this because ive been calling Milo gremlin also! Ive had him a week and he is so amazing, he even learned to use the pee pads in two days, so clever! But the other day, he started going crazy, like your saying, jumping on me and trying to destroy my clothes, hands and feet. And would not have any intereast in his toys. This went on for hours!! When my boyfriend came home i told him that Milo has turned into a gremlin! Hehe!

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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Clara said:


> Hopefully this will post. This is Buddha knowing.


But he's not biting? What is he supposed to understand from this?


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

krandall said:


> But he's not biting? What is he supposed to understand from this?


He had just been put down off of the sofa for biting me.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

Notice his reaction at 5 seconds.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Clara said:


> He had just been put down off of the sofa for biting me.


Then your correction for him biting is to put him on the floor. (good) all the words, particularly that long after it happened, and in that tone of voice, are pretty meaningless.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

krandall said:


> Then your correction for him biting is to put him on the floor. (good) all the words, particularly that long after it happened, and in that tone of voice, are pretty meaningless.


I don't think my timing is wrong. I have been corrected for my tone of voice even from the Vet. Dr.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Clara said:


> Notice his reaction at 5 seconds.


His reaction show that he knows your not happy with him, NOT that he knows it has anything to do with biting, that long after the offense. For punishment to be effective (in this case, negative punishment, since you are taking away something he wants, which is to be with you) it must be immediate. So we don't see the start of this video, but assuming that you yelped (or, if you prefer, loudly say, "NO BITE" in a high pitched voice) and immediately put him on the floor, THAT is the punishment.

If you continue to say things like "no bite" when he's on the floor doing absolutely nothing wrong, you are just confusing the issue, because now he's doing absolutely nothing wrong, and doesn't understand why you are still unhappy with him.

Timing is everything in dog training. Whether it is reward or punishment, if it doesn't IMMEDIATELY follow the behavior, it is worse than meaningless&#8230; it is confusing. If you watch the very best trainers train, you will be amazed at:

1. Their ability to "hold criteria" (decide what the rules are for a behavior and stick to them consistently)

2. Their ability to time rewards EXACTLY. (and the VERY occasional punishment, if that is ever used)

3. Their strong bias toward rewarding good behavior and TOTALLY ignoring behavior they don't want. (this second part is REALLY hard for most people to do well&#8230; it's REALLY hard not to react!)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Clara said:


> I don't think my timing is wrong. I have been corrected for my tone of voice even from the Vet. Dr.


Your vet is very unlikely to have much training as a trainer. 

I'm just telling you that what you THINK is going on here, isn't.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

krandall said:


> His reaction show that he knows your not happy with him, NOT that he knows it has anything to do with biting, that long after the offense. For punishment to be effective (in this case, negative punishment, since you are taking away something he wants, which is to be with you) it must be immediate. So we don't see the start of this video, but assuming that you yelped (or, if you prefer, loudly say, "NO BITE" in a high pitched voice) and immediately put him on the floor, THAT is the punishment.
> 
> If you continue to say things like "no bite" when he's on the floor doing absolutely nothing wrong, you are just confusing the issue, because now he's doing absolutely nothing wrong, and doesn't understand why you are still unhappy with him.
> 
> ...


I put him down off of the sofa immediately after he started biting me. He tried to walk away but I used his name to call him back to the situation. When I said "no bite" he reacted as if he knew what had happened. I see him being contrite in the end. He was on the floor but he knew that something WAS happening.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

krandall said:


> Your vet is very unlikely to have much training as a trainer.
> 
> *I'm just telling you that what you THINK is going on here, isn't*.


I disagree.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

Carli said:


> Oh my god thats so funny you posted this because ive been calling Milo gremlin also! Ive had him a week and he is so amazing, he even learned to use the pee pads in two days, so clever! But the other day, he started going crazy, like your saying, jumping on me and trying to destroy my clothes, hands and feet. And would not have any intereast in his toys. This went on for hours!! When my boyfriend came home i told him that Milo has turned into a gremlin! Hehe!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I can't imagine it going on for hours. It wouldn't be good for puppy.


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## Carli (Nov 5, 2013)

Well its really coming to light the waypeople talk to each other on this forum, everyone seems to think they are right instead of taking constructive criticism. Some argumentitive people here! Peace out from me!


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

Best practice from Emmie's dog training school - do not repeat commands or corrections. *Don't nag. Say it once and mean it.*


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

MarinaGirl said:


> Best practice from Emmie's dog training school - do not repeat commands or corrections. *Don't nag. Say it once and mean it.*


Thank you.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

sorry for this late response.

" I was trying to hold him down but lord is was like wrestling a tiny wiggly snarling beast."

Physically restraining a puppy can be very aversive, it can also increase the level of excitement which you are trying to

deescalate.

"On Buddhas first vet visit the dr. did a kind of test. She picked him up and cuddled him in her arms with his belly up and

pet his belly to see if he would lick or bite her hands or both he did both licking her hands first she said that was a good

thing."

wrong , licking in this case is a stress signal and a calming signal .

"I tried that "yelping" when he would bite my hands that's what the Vet Dr. Told me to do. When I did that he seemed to take

it as a cue that we were having fun and it made him more wound up"

That's because you didn't follow up with immediately ignoring or walking away.

" but a lot of people say don't use his crate for punishment"

ditto to what Karen said, this is the good type of punishment , ie. negative punishment. If a dog is afraid of their crate is

becomes abuse.

"Sometimes he kind of just mouthes my hands not really biting and not really licking. I just don't know if I need to react

every single time with putting him in the crate"

this is where teaching bite inhibtion comes in. here's an article http://www.clickertraining.com/node/3249

"I just don't want him to think biting is ok. I don't really mind if he bites me now and then in the course of play but I

don't want him biting other people, ever"

the rules you set are for everyone, he won\t discriminate.

"I have put Buddha in his crate a couple of times for biting and it really only takes less than a minute. When I put him in

it for biting he looked very sad and bewildered. I guess the key is not leaving him in there so long that he forgets what

just happened"

his reaction doesn't necessariy mean much. If you delayed even five seconds from the time of his bite, he won't make the

association of what he did wrong. If innocent play was happening after the bite he might not get the point as to why he is

being removed from his fun.

re the video 
yeah here ,even though you\re talking in a soft voice, it is way too late for him to make the association, even if he knew

what "no bite" means He is cowering and you're not helping things at all. Karen is correct here. "no bite" has to occur

within one second hopefully for the association to be made. This is much too late and is only scaring him.

" When I said "no bite" he reacted as if he knew what had happened. I see him being contrite in the end. He was on the floor

but he knew that something WAS happening. "

sorry but no. He's reacting to you and your demeanor. Dogs don't exhibit guilt they are simply reading the situation and in

this case he's afraid.

Your puppy is adorable, like Karen said , work on your timing, and please read the article. Puppies like yours are quite typical. Some of this will dissipate with time , but bite inhibition still has to be taught and worked on for the rest of their lives. They need feedback. and reminders all the time. Happy training.


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## Ruthiec (Jun 18, 2013)

This is all consistent with the dog training we have attended so maybe if I explain it in a bit of detail it will help with your training.

A puppy's span of association is incredibly short, so in training even the time it takes to get a food reward out of your pocket / bag and give it to them can be too long for a young puppy to associate their action with the reward. So we are taught to "mark" the right behaviour instantly either with a "yes" or with a clicker (e.g. the absolute second their bum hits the ground for a "sit" command) and then follow up within a few seconds with the food. This way the pup associates the "yes" or "click with the action so knows exactly what it did that was right. It also knows that a food reward will follow any second now. 

Correspondingly the wrong behaviour is marked instantly with an "ah ah" (low voice, consitent tone). This may be enough or can then be followed up with either a time out or 30 seconds stop play or whatever is appropriate. But if you don't mark the bad behaviour instantly then the puppy will recognise it has done something wrong but will have no idea what. Even a few seconds delay between the wrong action eg the bite and the correction means the puppy may have stood up, sat down, rolled over or any number of things and so the risk is that your reprimand is associated in the puppy's mind with completely the wrong action.

The fact that they look contrite, crawl under a chair, lick your hand means that they know they have done something wrong. However the training is only effective if they are able to associate the reprimand with their wrong action.

Hope that helps explain why timing is so critical.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

good stuff Ruth, that's why puppy classes are so important.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

I don't respond to anything within one second. I also don't do well responding "instantly" to anyone's behavior.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Clara said:


> I put him down off of the sofa immediately after he started biting me. He tried to walk away but I used his name to call him back to the situation. When I said "no bite" he reacted as if he knew what had happened. I see him being contrite in the end. He was on the floor but he knew that something WAS happening.


So, from a dog/behavior standpoint, what you did was call him back, he cmd, and you chastised him for it. I'm not saying that's what you MEANT to do, but that's the way it works in a dog's brain&#8230; ANY dog's brain, even the smartest, best trained dog in the world. There is science to PROVE this.

Dogs don't feel "contrite" or "guilty". They only know why pleases us or doesn't please us. But in this example, he clearly knows you're not happy, but he has NO idea that it was about biting, by the time he reacts the way he does. Dog brains CANNOT make that leap.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Clara said:


> I disagree.


I think you need to do some serious reading on the SCIENCE behind dog behavior.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

MarinaGirl said:


> Best practice from Emmie's dog training school - do not repeat commands or corrections. *Don't nag. Say it once and mean it.*


:thumb:


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

krandall said:


> I think you need to do some serious reading on the SCIENCE behind dog behavior.


Yeah you're probably right. No one EVER successfully raised a dog without knowing the science behind their behavior.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

krandall said:


> So, from a dog/behavior standpoint, what you did was call him back, he cmd, and you chastised him for it. I'm not saying that's what you MEANT to do, but that's the way it works in a dog's brain&#8230; ANY dog's brain, even the smartest, best trained dog in the world. There is science to PROVE this.
> 
> Dogs don't feel "contrite" or "guilty". They only know why pleases us or doesn't please us. But in this example, he clearly knows you're not happy, but he has NO idea that it was about biting, by the time he reacts the way he does. Dog brains CANNOT make that leap.


Yeah he does know it was about biting.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ruthiec said:


> Correspondingly the wrong behaviour is marked instantly with an "ah ah" (low voice, consitent tone). This may be enough or can then be followed up with either a time out or 30 seconds stop play or whatever is appropriate. But if you don't mark the bad behaviour instantly then the puppy will recognise it has done something wrong but will have no idea what. Even a few seconds delay between the wrong action eg the bite and the correction means the puppy may have stood up, sat down, rolled over or any number of things and so the risk is that your reprimand is associated in the puppy's mind with completely the wrong action.


Nice explanation, Ruthie. To follow on to your above comment, this is called a "No Reward Marker". Some trainers do use this, and I can see the point in SOME LIMITED situations. But I think with most of the behaviors puppies (and even adult dogs) engage in that we want to change I prefer to ignore the undesired behavior, and try, if it is at all possible, to replace it with a more desirable behavior. (because it's much easier to teach them to DO something than it is to teach them to NOT DO something )

For instance, When Kodi was younger and would follow me into the bathroom, for some reason, when I was washing my hands, he would start barking and jumping on my leg. I STILL don't know what caused this behavior, or what he was trying to accomplish. For quite a long time, I would just push him down and ignore him. It stopped him in the moment, but he still did the same thing the next time&#8230; EVERY time.

Then I started to use my (more highly evolved? ) brain. I thought, "What can I use as a replacement behavior so that he never gets to practice the behavior I don't want?" It was pretty obvious when I put even a little thought into it. From then on, every time he followed me into the bathroom, I put him in a down stay on the rug. You can't jump on someone from a down-stay!  Problem completely solved in ONE TRIP into the bathroom. For several months, I put him in a down-stay every time. Eventually, we had broken the jumping habit, and I no longer needed to formally tell him to down&#8230; he just knew where he belonged, and it WASN'T jumping on my leg! 

So I had completely stopped an undesired behavior using ONLY positive reward (for the down-stay) and immediately solved a problem that mild punishment (getting pushed off and ignored) had been unable to make a dent in. Could I have solved the problem with more severe punishment, probably. But I don't do that type of training.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Clara said:


> Yeah you're probably right. No one EVER successfully raised a dog without knowing the science behind their behavior.


Well, the thing you have going in your favor is that you chose an extremely biddable, smart, forgiving breed. A lot of them grow up OK in spite of what their owners do, not because of it.

But it would be SO much more rewarding for you, and less confusing for your puppy if you understood what was going on. I would feel SO bad if my puppy got so confused by what I was doing that he felt the need to crawl under a nearby chair. I find it very distressing that you don't even register that.

But he's your puppy, and you will do what you want to do with him. We can only try to help you learn to train him better. If you don't want that help, so be it.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

krandall said:


> Well, the thing you have going in your favor is that you chose an extremely biddable, smart, forgiving breed. A lot of them grow up OK in spite of what their owners do, not because of it.
> 
> But it would be SO much more rewarding for you, and less confusing for your puppy if you understood what was going on. I would feel SO bad if my puppy got so confused by what I was doing that he felt the need to crawl under a nearby chair. I find it very distressing that you don't even register that.
> 
> But he's your puppy, and you will do what you want to do with him. We can only try to help you learn to train him better. If you don't want that help, so be it.


Yup I'm an idiot and my puppy is suffering terribly. Thanks for letting me know!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

There is a BIG difference between being an idiot, and needing to learn. I would NEVER call ANYONE an idiot. And hopefully, we can ALL learn to be better trainers and caretakers of our beloved pets. :yield:


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

Hi Clara - I'm sorry if you think you're being poorly judged because I don't think that was anyone's intent. I've actually found this thread to be very informative. Many of the things you've been doing while training your puppy are things a number of us have done in the past or may be currently doing. So this discussion is a great learning opportunity for all of us. What's wonderful about this forum is that more experienced members like Karen & Dave take the time to provide detailed info on how to do things differently, which could lead to better behavior in a shorter amount of time and strengthen our bonds with our precious Havanese puppies and adult dogs. Please know that we all support you and don't think you're an idiot or that Buddha is suffering in any way.

Happy Holidays,
Jeanne


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

MarinaGirl said:


> Hi Clara - I'm sorry if you think you're being poorly judged because I don't think that was anyone's intent. I've actually found this thread to be very informative. Many of the things you've been doing while training your puppy are things a number of us have done in the past or may be currently doing. So this discussion is a great learning opportunity for all of us. What's wonderful about this forum is that more experienced members like Karen & Dave take the time to provide detailed info on how to do things differently, which could lead to better behavior in a shorter amount of time and strengthen our bonds with our precious Havanese puppies and adult dogs. Please know that we all support you and don't think you're an idiot or that Buddha is suffering in any way.


I couldn't have said it better myself. Clara, please don't feel that you are being attacked or criticized. It is obvious from your posts that you feel a close bond with your dog and want to do be a good doggie mom, but it would be in your and your dog's best interest to be open to the ideas that are being presented on this. One thing I have learned is that there is a tendency to read into or make assumptions about what our dogs are thinking, or rather, what is motivating them, since they don't really "think" in the way that humans do. I am very interested in learning more about canine cognition, though at this point I've barely scratched the surface. I'm sure it's true that it's possible to raise a dog well without understanding the science behind it, and as Karen has said, with the Havanese normally smart and eager to please temperament, they might turn out OK in spite of our errors. Even so, I think that this is an exciting time in terms of understanding canine learning and cognition, and why not use the best, most effective training methods available? I now realize that I have been incredibly lucky to have stumbled on to an excellent dog/puppy training facility very early on. Since I knew little about it at the time, I might just as easily ended up with a crummy one, but I will be eternally grateful that my dog was able to get a great start from this, starting at 9 weeks of age. I am also very aware of what a precious resource these forums are, with some very experienced people who are willing to take the time to share what they know. My advice, FWIW -- take a deep breath, keep an open mind, and try out some of the suggestions that have been given. There is always more to learn, in all areas of life, IMO!


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## tra_po (Aug 14, 2013)

Clara said:


> Yup I'm an idiot and my puppy is suffering terribly. Thanks for letting me know!


 It sounds like you're doing the best you can. And, personally, I applaud you for sticking this thread out as long as you have. I'm glad you did because I learned something from it but upset for you that you feel like you're an idiot. You don't sound like one at all.


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

Looks like Clara removed all of Buddha's photos and videos from the site on 12/23/13 and I'm sorry to see her go as she had great questions and comments to share regarding being a new puppy owner.

All the best,
Jeanne


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I'm sorry she left too. I didn't mean to upset her. I thought she was honestly interested in learning. It's easier NOT to give advice.


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## sprorchid (Mar 30, 2010)

wow. It's a shame, that's for sure.


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

Karen, I'm sure it _would_ be easier to not give advice, but I hope you will never consider that! I and I'm sure many others have learned so much from you, and it would be a great loss to not have you as a resource. As I'm sure you know, not everyone is able or willing to put as much into their dog as you do into Kodi, so I think sometimes they might be a little overwhelmed and think that they are supposed to do that. I think in the beginning I felt that way sometimes, thinking that I just wanted a happy and well behaved dog, not a perfect one. I realized , though, that as I gained in experience and confidence my expectations of myself as a dog owner/mommy increased, and I am sure that my goals will continue to change over time. I think that people have to look at it that the information has been offered, and they can do with it what they will. You seem to do a good job of expressing yourself diplomatically, which in some cases makes for a lot more work, I'm sure, but in the end of course you can't control how other people will react. Sometimes people just want to do things their own way and that's that. Anyway, thank you for all of your thoughts and advice, and please keep it up!


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## Sarahdee (Apr 5, 2012)

I'm sad she left. I think part of the problem with giving advice on a forum is that you can read it the wrong way. With the wrong tone. Advice can read like criticism because that's the way you are reading it and not necessarily how the person giving the advice is writing it. We should always try to give people the benefit of the doubt.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

I personally think your vet sounds like he or she does have knowledge of training. And you would know that more than someone who doesn't even know him or her. I never really thought much about the puppy bites just because I have raised so many pups. I like tug a war during that stage. Maddie loved ball throwing and took an interest in that much more than biting. She was 8 weeks old. Zoey was much more mouthy and I got her at 11 weeks. So who knows why some seem to bit more.


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## Carli (Nov 5, 2013)

Well personally i feel like she was a bit snappy at me when i was just trying to share my funny story similar to hers. :-S

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Ruthiec (Jun 18, 2013)

Sad that Carla has gone. Buddha was so cute and it would have been fun to see him developing. Hopefully though the posts on here will be of help to others.

Like Dave, I'm a great fan of Ian Dunbar and found a lot of useful info on the DogstarDaily website. Some of it is a bit dated but still very helpful. So perhaps if anyone is ever in doubt about advice being given on the forum then reference to a site like this will help to confirm or counter the advice being given.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ruthiec said:


> Sad that Carla has gone. Buddha was so cute and it would have been fun to see him developing. Hopefully though the posts on here will be of help to others.
> 
> Like Dave, I'm a great fan of Ian Dunbar and found a lot of useful info on the DogstarDaily website. Some of it is a bit dated but still very helpful. So perhaps if anyone is ever in doubt about advice being given on the forum then reference to a site like this will help to confirm or counter the advice being given.


Good idea, Ruthie!


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