# Nippy



## marpars63 (Apr 16, 2011)

My 15 month old neutered Hav male got a playmate. We got his brother (different litter) who is now five months old. The two dogs get along great. Upon brining his brother into the house, I read the importance of putting the older dog first. Now that he has started to become territorial with things and I have hired a trainer, I see the error of my ways. Boo, the first dog thinks he is the pack leader and much of my training now (yes, it is mine. I should have been more firm) is my having to assert my position as the pack leader. As part of the training, the trainer wanted me to use a prong collar with Boo. Training him to walk on it the first two times went ok and Boo picked up on it right away with a tiny yank on the leash. THe other day after the trainer left, I went to take the collar off for the day and Boo my once sweet occasionally nippy dog bit me harder than I had ever been bit. Then he ran after the puppy and nipped my husband. Review after review says these collars are the way to go, but my belief is that if it is causing the dog to turn so dratically on my, I need to use something else. The vet says he does not like the prong collar or the other collar suggested, an ecollar. Any suggestions out there?


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## dbeech (Jun 16, 2009)

This post made me really sad and I can only hope that since it is your first post that you are some kind of troll trying to stir up trouble. I cannot imagine using a prong collar on any dog and certainly not a small Havanese.


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## Jplatthy (Jan 16, 2011)

I'm not a fan. Honestly in all the training classes I've been in Fl and now AL the only time I've ever seen a prong collar used was on the really large breeds that were pulling their owners......I don't really have an answer or advice because I've never used them. How long has the trainer been training dogs? Could you have accidentally hurt him removing the collar and that was the reason he bit?? I know mine put their mouths towards me when I'm grooming if I hit a mat or snag in their hair but they have never actually bit me.......sorry I can't be more help but I'm sure someone will respond with some good advice.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Whatever you're reading or watching is TOTALLY wrong . You need serious help. If you want it email me.


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## JMGracie (Mar 30, 2011)

Yeah, I actually don't even like using a normal collar - I prefer a harness. I know Havs are pretty hardy for a toy breed, but they're still small. It's way too easy to accidentally use too much force (not paying attention on a walk, and suddenly you're pulling them through the air because they stopped).


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

I'm wondering about your trainer... any trainer worth anything would never suggest using a prong collar on a Hav! poor puppy. I hope you can get some help asap!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I agree. I don't believe that a prong collar, e-collar or other painful, forceful methods are the way to train ANY dog, but especially not a small,"soft" breed like a Havanese. It's also just plain not necessary. You can can train your dog using positive training methods and build a much better relationship with him at the same time. There is no need to "dominate" your little dog.


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## marpars63 (Apr 16, 2011)

*Debbie B*

Debbie B, The post was not intended to strike at your emotions and evoke name calling to the tune of Charlie Sheen. It was meant to receive the opinions of other non-emotional havanese owners and training experiences. The collar was used at the advice of a high recommended professional trainer and not out of desire to do something that have a negative effect on my dog.


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## marpars63 (Apr 16, 2011)

For all the other posters, than you for your advice. The use of the collar was not a whim, it was at the advice of the trainer who comes highly recommended. I questioned the use of such a collar on a dog with the havanese personality, tried it a few times and discontinued it. Despite all of the judgements being tossed out by different posters, I still request the advice of how to stop him from nipping. I correct him with a sound anytime he goes to lift the lip or growls inappropriately. If he does nip, he is told "no" and placed in a time out. He also gets ample positive reinforcement. By the way, training is a form of domination as is obedience training otherwise who our what are you being obedient to>


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## SOPHIES-MOM (Oct 4, 2010)

I'm feeling sorry for your little puppy. I hope he behaves soon so he doesn't get hurt any more.


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## marpars63 (Apr 16, 2011)

The puppy is not hurt and there was no intention to cause him any pain. There are counties, mine included, that have ordinances which require a dog that bites once or even twice to be put down. I saw a problem with my older hav biting and wanted to stop it before someone was bitten. You mean to tell me, no one has ever had their hav get bitey?


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## SOPHIES-MOM (Oct 4, 2010)

The only time Sophie bit me hard was after her spay if I touched anywhere near her stomach. She hurt and it was her only way to communicate that. Maybe your dog is trying to tell you something.


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## Lizzie'sMom (Oct 13, 2010)

No, my dog does not bite. We have had the "play with me nipping at ankles" and there is another thread on here with many great suggestions.


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## marpars63 (Apr 16, 2011)

Thank you Lizzzie's mom. I will check into that


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

marpars63 said:


> For all the other posters, than you for your advice. The use of the collar was not a whim, it was at the advice of the trainer who comes highly recommended. I questioned the use of such a collar on a dog with the havanese personality, tried it a few times and discontinued it. Despite all of the judgements being tossed out by different posters, I still request the advice of how to stop him from nipping. I correct him with a sound anytime he goes to lift the lip or growls inappropriately. If he does nip, he is told "no" and placed in a time out. He also gets ample positive reinforcement. By the way, training is a form of domination as is obedience training otherwise who our what are you being obedient to>


I disagree that training has to be a form of domination. Training gives you a method of communicating successfully with another species. With positive reinforcement, the animal CHOOSE to do what we want. That is our goal, of course, but it is far from domination.

As far as the nipping is concerned, depending on his age, it may be a phase, and you may be doing just the right thing but need to just keep at it. Kodi never nipped people, but he was death on throw pillows. We kept correcting and correcting, but it went on for months. It did fade over time, and now looking back on it, I can't even remember how long it took. But when we were in the middle of it, it felt like forever.

Please don't get defensive about the answers you are getting here, you did ask for them. Whether your trainer came highly recommended or not, I don't think you will find anyone on this forum supporting those methods. I think if this is a serious problem, you DO need a trainer to help you, but find another one... Someone who uses positive reinforcement methods. The heavy handed stuff can "work" with some breeds in that you eventually get behavior you want, but it is at the expense of the relationship between you and your dog. Personally, I WANT my dog to CHOOSE to work with me. If I have to force him, I want to find another way.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

marpars63 said:


> For all the other posters, than you for your advice. The use of the collar was not a whim, it was at the advice of the trainer who comes highly recommended. I questioned the use of such a collar on a dog with the havanese personality, tried it a few times and discontinued it. Despite all of the judgements being tossed out by different posters, I still request the advice of how to stop him from nipping. I correct him with a sound anytime he goes to lift the lip or growls inappropriately. If he does nip, he is told "no" and placed in a time out. He also gets ample positive reinforcement. By the way, training is a form of domination as is obedience training otherwise who our what are you being obedient to>


Neither you nor your trainer has a clue about training." Highly recommended" by who.? Probably by someone else who doesn't have a clue what a good trainer is. If you want help here is some reading.

1. http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm
2. http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/d...-should-win-gutsiest-veterinary-document-year
3. http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/macho-myth 
4, http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/social-hierarchies
5, http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/defusing-dominance
6, http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/alpha-fallacy
7, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090521112711.htm
8. http://www.esquire.com/features/ESQ1006-ESQ100_20-21.FINAL.rev_1
9, http://www.askdryin.com/dominanceindogs.php
10 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tag/dog-dominance
11 http://www.nonlineardogs.com/index.html
12 http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/whisperer.html
13 http://dogpublic.com/articles/article.aspx?t=training411&sid=14&pid=1640
14 http://www.showdogs.co.za/articles/wag_the_dog/dominance.htm
15 http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance statement.pdf
16 http://www.urbandawgs.com/divided_profession.html
17 http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/current/research/030509.html
18 http://www.urbandawgs.com/luescher_millan.html
19 http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/index.html
20 http://www.bris.ac.uk/news/2009/6361.html
21 http://www.ipdta.org/#The_Dominance_Theory
22 http://www.4pawsu.com/pmdominance.htm
23 http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/dominance.htm
24 http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/the-concept-formerly-described-as-dominance
25 http://www.apdt.com/about/ps/dominance.aspx
26 http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose/dominancemyths.aspx
27 http://dog-training.suite101.com/article.cfm/debunking_the_dominance_theory_in_dogs
28 http://www.journalvetbehavior.com/article/S1558-7878(08)00115-9
29 http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php
30 http://k9domain.org/alpha_theory.aspx
31 http://apromisepluskennels.com/21401/33201.html
32 http://www.rcvs.org.uk/Shared_ASP_F...CJan10AI22-statementonpunitivedogtraining.pdf
33 http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die
34 http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonl...leases/avsab-rspca press release 12-15-09.pdf
35 http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/mammals/alstat/intro.htm
36 http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/31/opinion/31derr.html?_r=2
37 http://peacefulpaws.net/dog-human-r...er-the-lighter-side-of-the-alpha-controversy/
38 http://abapdf.s3.amazonaws.com/MediaBlogPage/Dominance beliefs oct 09.pdf
39 http://www.livescience.com/animals/090217-dog-training.html
40 http://lifeasahuman.com/2010/pets/dogs/the-myth-of-alpha-dogs/
41 http://www.belladogmagazine.com/health-wellness/81-dominance-theory
42 http://www.kathysdao.com/articles/Forget_About_Being_Alpha_in_Your_Pack.html
43 http://www.pawsoflife.org/pdf/Library articles/Bradshaw 2009.pdf
44 http://www.ovma.org/pdf/SA program_clinical_pearls.pdf
45 http://www.livescience.com/animals/091112-dog-training.html
46 http://www.apbc.org.uk/press/APBC_Challenges_Cesar_Millan
47 http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ne-dominance-is-the-concept-the-alpha-dog-val
48 http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life...erers-methods-safe/article1636680/?cmpid=rss1
49 http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2007250,00.html
50 http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/dominance-mythologies-suzanne-hetts
51 http://www.apbc.org.uk/blog/to_dominate_or_not_to_dominate
52 http://dogstardaily.com/blogs/when-choosing-dog-trainer-buyer-beware
53 http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy
54 http://www.diamondsintheruff.com
55 http://konastouch.com/blog/?p=573
56 http://www.rewardingbehaviors.com/2010/12/30/extreme-makeover-mutt-edition/
57 http://positively.com/files/100101-bestfriends.pdf
58 http://www.apbc.org.uk/blog/severe_aggression_solved_without_harm
59 http://www.doglistener.co.uk/alpha/thealphamyth.shtml
60 http://lifeasahuman.com/2010/pets/dogs/the-myth-of-alpha-dogs/


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I have to agree wholeheartedly with Karen. While your dog does appear to need training, if you want an animal you'll be happy to live with and who will be happy with you, positive reinforcement is the way to go. Negative input begets negative outcome. 

Frankly, any trainer who would suggest a prong collar for a havanese would be someone I'd stay far away from. These little ones want to please us, we just have to find a way to communicate with them on a level they'll understand.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Once again, Dave to the rescue. You're always there with just the right stuff.


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## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

One of the first things I found out about Havs,is that they are very sensitive,and do not respond well to harsh training methods,this is common knowledge,and any trainer worth their sorts should be aware of this.Positive training is the way to go.


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## Jplatthy (Jan 16, 2011)

I just wanted to check and see how things were going since you received some really good responses. What are you going to do?


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## marpars63 (Apr 16, 2011)

Dog reacting to things much better. He still will growl and raise his lip showing his teeth if he does not like something i am doing, but stops when given a firm "no" . Previously he would not let me touch his collar (even before the prong) or brush him, but now lets me for a short while and I am working up to longer times. He lets me walk ahead of him on walks. 
In one reader's quote-
"Neither you nor your trainer has a clue about training." Highly recommended" by who.? Probably by someone else who doesn't have a clue what a good trainer is."

Fired the trainer. BTW, the trainer was highly recommended by the local media and I had researched them extensively with no negatives anywhere .

The company which my vet recommended had several negatives so for those of you casting judgement, consider that. 

As havanese owners, we should be proactive to educate those considering a havanese regarding such issues.

For the useful advice posted by some, thank you.


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## marpars63 (Apr 16, 2011)

Oh, I also spoke to the breeder I got him and his brother from who said their mother can get nippy at times as well.


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## inlovewithhav (Feb 18, 2011)

Have you checked with your local Humane Society? They normally have training staff on hand that will be able to help. I can tell you when Kipper doesn't want to do something (noramlly when he is playing and we try to pick him up) he will growl and nip but he is only about 4 months old so he is still learning how things go in the house. My older much bigger breed dog will snarl and snap (within past year) but this is when she is in trouble and doesn't want to be sent to time out in her bed or outside and thinks that you are going to reach for her collar to force. I have young children and a lot of small children in my neighborhood so biting is not tolerated. It usually happens in stressful situations so you may want to look at what is going on when he nips at you and your husband... just my opinion, good luck.


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## Jplatthy (Jan 16, 2011)

Well I am glad to hear things are going better AND that you had the good judgement to seek advice outside of the trainer. As parents to our furbabies lol we do only want what is best for them and when you have a new puppy the first thing you do is ask for advice and/or recommendations. Where I live training is very limited unfortunately. In my situation, the trainer refused to 'treat" train which didn't sit right with me but I had already paid for the class and figured if nothing else came out of it Smokey was being socialized around other dogs and situations for a few weeks. I didn't continue with the trainer since I didn't agree with her methods. But I've had recommendations for vets, groomers, etc that did NOT work out either. The bottom line is you know your baby better than anyone else and if behavior changes then you do need to find out why. It takes alot of responsibility and courage to ask for advice on a subject that you know is probably going to be very controversial. I hope things continue to improve for you and your family. Good luck and keep us posted.


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## kimnaz (Feb 15, 2011)

I'm sorry you were offended by some of the comments. I have 2 Black Russian Terriers in my home. They were breed by the russian army as guard dogs. I read everywhere when I was researching them that "if you are a novice" you shouldn't own this breed. OMG!! I love them to death but they are weapons on 4 legs. At 8 weeks when we brought them home,one growled at my neighbor and we thought it was cute but intensified as they got older. We have had several mishaps so now we lock them up when anyone is around. Mu daughter uses a prong collar for hers and she can pull you down when walking even with the prong collar. I used the e-collar when mine was 6 months old with a trainer that recommended it. I was in tears when I used it but it worked for her but not her sister but these are 120 pound dogs. I used it a couple times because they are a safety risk when other people are around. I couldn't bear putting them down. I have been told by a breeder to put them both down. Can't do it! They are fine with the smaller dogs and the family just not visitors. I am a new havanese owner and I can't imagine anyone telling you to use a e-collar or prong collar on this breed. I went through a few breeders for our BRT's,just keep looking. Look for the ones that come to your home and show you their techniques. Your dog should show you who and what will work for them if the trainer knows his/her stuff!! Good luck, I know it can be very frustrating and disappointing when these guys don't live up to our ideas of the "perfect dog".


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## sprorchid (Mar 30, 2010)

hey Marpars63,
welcome to the forum. I am not a trainer. I've had 3 big dogs, anatolians, a powerful breed, mine were all over 120 lbs.

I also have a 1/2 hav at 14 lbs, Ollie. I just wanted to share my experiences of dog training with you.

I believed all that 'domination' stuff, when I had only my big dogs. meaning you had to be the alpha, eat before the dogs did, enter a room before the dogs did, don't let them sleep with you or be on higher ground than you, blah blah blah. also believed in traditional training, aka leash correction, verbal praise, not food treats. before Ollie all my dogs were rescues, and I got them as adults, or over 5 months old.

then I got Ollie. and then I got Oz (male 9 month old anatolian). Ollie I ventured out and tried positive reinforcement, aka praise and food. Ollie and all my dogs are super food motivated. I have found that using praise and the appropriate appetizing treat goes much further than a leash correction and 'bad dog!'.

none of my dogs have ever nipped me. Oz, my youngest, when he doesn't want me to do something, just 1-2 times he's put his mouth on my hand, as if to say, no (like clipping nails). but it's a mouthing, not a bite.

our little guys are small and their necks are fragile. I would only use a prong collar as a last resort and with thorough and proper training. the problem with the prong, is it's fear motivated, take the prong off, and your dog reverts back to it's nippy self. not ideal.

find a food treat that your pup is NUTS over. like natural balance sausage or my boys LOVE duck jerky. I've been on both sides of the fence, and I will honestly say that positive reinforcement will get you much much further in the long run.

My pup Oz, he's about 70 lbs now, at 9 months old, he is a VERY sensitive boy. sweet as pie... but he is a terrible teenager, any verbal negative correction, he usually gets his feelings hurt. not by me, but I do have a professional dog walker, and she mentioned to me the other day that she verbally corrected him and he was 'very sensitive' and I mentioned back to her that both Oz and Ollie do better with food reinforcers and verbal praise (for everything but she was working on come) than a verbal reprimand.

anyway, I hope my thoughts and experiences have helped you a little. you can p.m. me if you want to talk specifics.


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## marpars63 (Apr 16, 2011)

Thank you for all the encouraging anecdotes of your fuzzballs. Both of mine are highly food motivated. It is funny, sometimes I take food out of the their bowl which is on the floor for them to eat and use it as a treat (it is much more interesting when taken out of hand than the floor). Baby carrots are popular as well. I reserve the jerky for the tough situations. Maybe there is a niche in a bigger city for a trainer exclusively for havs.


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## JMGracie (Mar 30, 2011)

Well, positive reinforcement and domination aren't necessarily two different things. When you are teaching/training a dog with positive reinforcement, you are still training them to do what you want, when you want. You are essentially teaching them that being submissive to you is a good thing (when master tells me to sit, and I sit, I get good things!)

The issue a lot of people have here is that some of the methods discussed are punishment instead of positive reinforcement. Both are still forms of dominance, but one results in a dog that is choosing to be submissive because it brings them happiness (treats, toys, or even just affection), and the other forces them to be submissive to avoid pain.

This is all very generalized, though. I don't think any one method is going to work for every dog, and there's degrees of all of them. When little Gracie is out on a walk and about to grab a random piece of trash, I'll say "leave it!" and pull on the lead a little to remind her. Now, she wears a harness, and I pull just a little instead of yanking, but it still falls into the "punishment" category (actually I guess that's technically negative punishment, which is slightly different).

In any event, it sounds like marpars63 has learned more on the issue, and has decided to change some of the training strategies. Yay for information!


Edit: I forgot to actually make my point, which is that "Dominance" itself is not a bad thing at all. Actually, it's pretty much a good thing when it comes to training (or just living with) dogs. It's just how you chose to assert your dominance that matters.


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## marpars63 (Apr 16, 2011)

Here is another question. Do havs like to mouth (as opposed to bite)?


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## LeighaMason (Dec 16, 2010)

I think people confuse "social order" with "domination". All packs of animals have a social order, whether its horses, cows, dogs, or car salesmen. Many people think you get to the top of the social order with physical aggression. I have never seen this happen. The most physically aggressive animal is usually an outcast. You become the leader with time, trust and providing an animals physical and emotional needs on a daily basis and in a consistent manner. So basically I believe in both the "pack mentality" and "positive reward" training. If used correctly they can work together, they don't have to be exclusive. 

On another note, I also would like to say "euphemisms" are dangerous because they mask problems. 

Is the dog nipping or is it just biting? Here is the way I personally tell the difference. 

If it was a Rottweiler and it did this behavior, would you be hurt? Just because the small dogs lack the jaw power doesn't mean its any different and needs to be called what it is, biting. 

Or is it nipping?, as an example, Sugarbaby (5 months old) is fascinated by my slippers when I have on my robe and she will run beside me and bite the air around my slippers when they peek out from under the robe and sometimes her tooth gets caught in the slipper material. I consider this "nipping", its a play/ prey behavior where "biting" is an aggressive "leave me alone" behavior. (And it still has to be corrected!)

That is where I would start, I would ask myself the hard question, is this an aggressive behavior or play? And proceed from there.


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## marpars63 (Apr 16, 2011)

The nipping is with the front teeth, but not in a playful tone. When he mouths, he will put his mouth on my hand and not bite.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

marpars63 said:


> Dog reacting to things much better. He still will growl and raise his lip showing his teeth if he does not like something i am doing, but stops when given a firm "no" . Previously he would not let me touch his collar (even before the prong) or brush him, but now lets me for a short while and I am working up to longer times. He lets me walk ahead of him on walks.
> In one reader's quote-
> "Neither you nor your trainer has a clue about training." Highly recommended" by who.? Probably by someone else who doesn't have a clue what a good trainer is."
> 
> ...


You mentioned he stops his growling when you give him a firm no. You shouldn't inhibit his growling . It's his warning. Here are two articles about this. http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/why-growl-good

http://www.4pawsu.com/k9myths.html I believe it's myth no .6 Don't worry so much about the Havanese breed when it comes to training . A dog is a dog. They all learn the same way.


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## sprorchid (Mar 30, 2010)

Dave,
I just want to thank you warmly for all your efforts and making this forum a great place.


on another note, I am an specialist in the public schools, and I do have children with severe autism on my caseload... I work with 2-4 behaviorists. I am not a trained behaviorist but I have found their insights helpful.

I will say with students and dogs, I favor extinction over negative reinforcement. and I favor positive reinforcement with someting tangible.

extinction, in a nutshell is ignore the behavior you don't want. the only issue with this is, if it's self-reinforcing, like digging for some dogs...

just something to think about.

I also think examining the situation to see what the triggers aka antecedents are, is more helpful than just stating the unwanted behavior. so state an entire scenario, and even with that, it's just a single person's observation, meaning one can miss something key, or two ppl can view a situation very differently.

but like everyone has said, you need help, a good trainer, with positive methods.


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## marpars63 (Apr 16, 2011)

Yes Dave, Thank you for all the article links. They are very interesting reading indeed. They have been very helpful.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

sprorchid said:


> Dave,
> I just want to thank you warmly for all your efforts and making this forum a great place.
> 
> on another note, I am an specialist in the public schools, and I do have children with severe autism on my caseload... I work with 2-4 behaviorists. I am not a trained behaviorist but I have found their insights helpful.
> ...


Thanks. As far as favoring extinction over -R . I definitely agree with you. 
Negative reinforcement increases a behavior by ending or taking away an aversive. An example is - stop shocking your dog when he correctly comes on recall or stop leash jerks when your dog is healing correctly. The key to R- is that an aversive must first be applied or threatened in order for it to be removed. And that is the problem with it, we first have to introduce the aversive. Extinction works ,even if you have to go through the extinction burst for awhile. Just not as fast , but certainly more dog friendly. Sometimes extinction doesn't always work. Example, ignoring barking . Sometimes the trigger has to be addressed to resolve the barking. And the example you gave is good. Good for you for taking the best route for your dog and or kids. You won't see any warning bulletins at the beginning of The Nanny.


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