# An Open Letter to Breeders



## Havtahava

Havanese are not perfect, but they are perfect for me. I love their goofy antics, their floppy hair in their faces, the cocked head as they try to understand my words. I am amused by their demands and adore the patience while they wait for me to wake up in the morning. My Havs don't look the same as each other nor the same as my friends' Havanese, but I still love their unique appearance.

Some people were a little surprised at my outspokenness yesterday and I'm going to attempt to explain a little bit of why I said what I did.

I have had many, many dog breeds in my home throughout my life. It took several years before my husband and I agreed on adding our first Havanese to our family. 

I have Havanese because I love this breed. I love them for all their joys, quirks and funniness. I take them with their problems, too, even the potty-training difficulties. I try to be very particular about evaluating each dog I have against the Havanese standard to ensure that I can continue to produce Havanese that look (structure) and act (temperament) like Havanese. I do my best to monitor their health and drive quite a long distance to encompass all the health testing recommended by the Havanese Club of America (HCA) and a few others tests too.

So, when some of my friends, mentors and people that I respect decided to start their own breed with their own standard, I was sad and disappointed, but decided to "live and let live." I did not even consider leaving Havanese. It wasn't really an option for me. I have Havanese and am committed to the Havanese standard as it is posted on the HCA and AKC web sites.

AKC only recognizes the Havanese and there is only one standard for our breed.

A year has passed since the divide and there are several people who are claiming to have both Havanese and Havana Silk Dogs within the same body of a single dog, and yet there are different standards for each. Some try to use the concepts of a registry & standard as if they are separate, but they can't be. If you have Havanese, you must breed to the Havanese standard, not some other "breed" standard. If we all picked & chose which standard to use, eventually some Havanese would have Papillion ears, Old English Sheepdog tails or German Shepherd toplines. We breed to the Havanese standard because we are preserving and improving the Havanese breed. 

Like I said in the other thread, I have no problem with people owning HSDs as their pets. They are all innocent in this and every dog deserves to be loved and cared for. I don't really even have a problem with those that left to join the HSDAA - that's their choice. If you don't agree with a standard or an organization, I think it is best that you leave if you feel you can't live with it. Kudos to them. My problem is with those that try to ride both sides of the fence while discrediting the Havanese breed, even if just in subtle undertones. 

It's time to get off the fence. Make a decision and stick with it if you are a breeder. You need to breed to one standard and stick to your convictions whatever they are.

Kimberly Gattey-Wood, a member of the Havanese Club of America in good standing

P.S. I know that every dog that I'm responsible for bringing into the world isn't going to be perfect and I'm not always going to be a perfect breeder, but I'm sure going to try for both those as most of my Havanese breeder friends do.


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## Beamer

Nicely said Kimberly!

Ryan


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## JASHavanese

Very nicely said Kimberly. 
Jan, another Havanese owner/lover/breeder in good standing with the Havanese Club of America and very proud of the organization


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## peluitohavanese

Beautifully stated Kimberly. I am a true believer that there is no such thing as perfection (except for the God that I believe in). That being said, I work hard by doing research, health testing, and only breeding Havanese with straight front legs, to always breed a better dog that the parents that it was born from. That is every responsible, reputable breeder's obligation. To improve with every breeding. 
My puppy buyers are extremely happy with their furballs. I have not had any issues that are health-related for which I have had to put my health guarantee into effect; that being said if and when something happens I offer a very generous health guarantee on my pups as do many many wonderful and reputable HCA breeder friends of mine 
I am attaching a picture of Peluito's Carnita Picante, a.k.a. "Moxie". She recently went home to a wonderful family in Racine, Wi.
Arlene


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## michi715

Very well put, Kimberly!


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## JASHavanese

peluitohavanese said:


> Beautifully stated Kimberly. I am a true believer that there is no such thing as perfection (except for the God that I believe in). That being said, I work hard by doing research, health testing, and only breeding Havanese with straight front legs, to always breed a better dog that the parents that it was born from. That is every responsible, reputable breeder's obligation. To improve with every breeding.
> My puppy buyers are extremely happy with their furballs. I have not had any issues that are health-related for which I have had to put my health guarantee into effect; that being said if and when something happens I offer a very generous health guarantee on my pups as do many many wonderful and reputable HCA breeder friends of mine
> I am attaching a picture of Peluito's Carnita Picante, a.k.a. "Moxie". She recently went home to a wonderful family in Racine, Wi.
> Arlene


Oh the research we do! I can't even count the hours on end and I'm still researching. I think once it was learned that under all that fur there could be crooked legs, all good breeders did soaps and used only dogs with straight legs. The breeders I know all breed straight legs and it's just the norm without any fanfare so I guess that's part of the reason this new stuff seems so strange to me. It's been in place for so many years and certainly isn't anything new. 
Thank God I haven't had any health issues either but like you and Kimberly have a good guarantee in place for puppy buyers. It just seems fair and right to do as is health testing. 
If puppy owners could see the work we put into a litter it could turn anyone against breeding  The potty training, the leash training, the way we help puppies to become strong and have great temperaments, lost nights of sleep, and the list goes on. When we see a face light up it's all worth it when someone gets a great puppy from you. I have to admit, I've broken down in tears a couple of times with puppies leaving and it can hurt but oh it really helps when we get pictures showing how happy the puppy is in their new home.


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## Scooter's Family

Kimberly-

You go girl! Good for you for standing up for what you believe in and preserving the integrity of these wonderful companions!!!


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## Lilysplash I

Breeders who have posted so far, I so appreciate your integrity and that you use it to inform the rest of us, especially knowing that you might risk disaproval from some.


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## Jane

Very well said, Kimberly! :hug:


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## Posh's Mom

A very respectful letter Kimberly in a very heated subject.


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## Julie

:clap2: Arlene :clap2:

:clap2: Jan :clap2:

:clap2: Kimberly :clap2:

I highly respect you breeders who stayed with the havanese breed,who do their ****est to give us puppy owners healthy,happy havanese----the best you can produce. :yo:My hats off to each and every one of you.:yo:

I fell in love with the havanese breed and I am glad that there are reputable,quality breeders out there like yourselves--that you are willing to go above and beyond and to answer any and all questions pet people to show people can ask. From feeding to poopy butts and everything in between.:grouphug: You guys are the cream of the crop! :grouphug:


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## dboudreau

What Julie said. :clap2:

I have learnt a lot on this forum, and if in the future I am fortunate enough to help bring a littler of these wonderful pups into this world I hope they will be health and happy because of what I have learnt from this forum and the great breeders that contribute so much to the breed I love.


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## Kathy

Kimberly,
You have stated so eloquently how many of us feel. Thank you.


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## mybella

Hooray for all the wonderful Havanese Breeders! Let's hear it for the breeders!

I got my Bella about a year ago. I had already worked with the breeder when I heard about this "split". I admit I didn't really understand it. My breeder did a good job explaining it. I could tell it was a point of frustration to her. She is very active in the HCA. 

Kimberly, you have explained it even further to me - which I appreciate. As you said - all puppies need a good home. But, I do appreciate the dedication and work you breeders put into our adorable Havanese!

I also appreciate all the postings (everyone, especially the breeders) put on this forum. I wish I had found the forum a long time ago!eace:


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## Julie

oops!:tape: I'm not a breeder--and this was for them I see now...I'm sorry!:tape:


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## Tom King

We love our dogs too. They are registered by AKC as Havanese and have all the rights as such. This does not mean that they cannot belong to some other registry. The same goes for members of the Original Havanese Club. 

This is nothing new to either dogs or other animals that have registries. We have horses who are Arabs who are also accepted into the German Oldenburg Registry. If we were to show them in an Arab show they would be judged as Arabs. If they were to show in a Sporthorse (horses who do the Equestrian Olympic Events) Show they would be judged as Oldenburgs. In Arab shows they are judged by the Arab standard. In Sporthorse shows they will be judged by the Sporthorse Standards.

AKC Havanese can be shown as Havanese and judged by that standard. This does not say that they can't also be judged by any other standard when they are shown as anything other than Havanese.

Personal opinions and dislikes make no real difference in eligibility. That's the big picture.

I forgot to add: I have never discredited the Havanese breed.


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## Havtahava

I'm not talking about showing and judging. I'm talking about breeding to a standard.


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## JASHavanese

Tom King said:


> I forgot to add: I have never discredited the Havanese breed.


With respect, that's where we disagree. The HCA, the AKC parent club of the Havanese, sets forth a standard that we are to breed to. When you breed to a different standard, in my eyes that is discrediting the Havanese breed. 
The logo your 'political movement' is having made doesn't even resemble a Havanese with that high tail and huge long neck nor does it resemble the pictures submitted with it. 
Oops, I wasn't supposed to know about that. :tape:


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## Beamer

Tom - Are you and the HSD group still trying to get the 'Havana Silk Dog' into its own breed in the AKC? Or is it not going to happen, as Jan mentioned in your guarantee thread?

Ryan


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## Lina

Ryan, just wanted to let you know that I've heard from two different people the same thing, that AKC has already said they will never accept HSDs as separate from Havanese


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## JASHavanese

Beamer said:


> Tom - Are you and the HSD group still trying to get the 'Havana Silk Dog' into its own breed in the AKC? Or is it not going to happen, as Jan mentioned in your guarantee thread?
> 
> Ryan


Ryan, here's what I'm told. The foundation dogs of the Havanese are the same foundation dogs that made up this silk group. AKC has said that it isn't possible for there to be 2 breeds with the same foundation dogs and that they will not recognize that group.


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## JASHavanese

Julie said:


> oops!:tape: I'm not a breeder--and this was for them I see now...I'm sorry!:tape:


Julie, you bet you can jump in here. Good breeders strive to breed as close to the ideal standard that we can and to better each litter. There's no way of getting nothing but show dogs in each litter and the people who are wonderful pet owners are a very vital part of this breed. We may even place an outstanding show quality dog in a pet owner's home because that's what is best for the dog and owner so feel free to speak up.


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## Lynn

Kimberly,
I can not even begin to express how much I admire you and appreciate everything you do for the Havanese breed. You will always have my support and admiration.


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## juliav

Beautifully said Kimberly.


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## Posh's Mom

JASHavanese said:


> Julie, you bet you can jump in here. Good breeders strive to breed as close to the ideal standard that we can and to better each litter. There's no way of getting nothing but show dogs in each litter and the people who are wonderful pet owners are a very vital part of this breed. We may even place an outstanding show quality dog in a pet owner's home because that's what is best for the dog and owner so feel free to speak up.


Yep, I'm pretty sure that's what happened to me. Posh was a wee one, barely making it to 8 inches before I got her, now she's closer to 9...or so. I won't rub that in my breeder's nose, as I think she would have finished her quickly. I think my breeder just realized she would be in a home that loved her so, and that's hard to find in this hardened world...


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## Suuske747

Excellent letter!


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## Poornima

Kimberly, very eloquent letter.


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## AgilityHav

Now, while I dont particularly agree w/ the whole silk dog thing, but I am open minded enough to see where some of the members come from, some do have good intentions, however, one point I dont understand is why Chocolate dogs are not allowed....


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## LuvMiHav

If the Havanese group doesn't like the Havana Silk Dog group then why don't they _help _the Havana Silk Dog group leave? It seems to me, if you don't like them and don't like their dogs then it would be in everyone's best interest to help them leave and form their own breed.

I'm new to this forum and most of the time I don't even log in (I think that makes me a lurker) but I've read many of the threads. It appears many on here have very hateful feelings (or are at least so angry they can't be civil) towards the HSD people and vice versa. Doesn't keeping them in your breed just foster those feelings of anger? Wouldn't helping them get them out of your lives and breed forever? That would be a win/win situation.

Sorry, I'll go back to lurking

Jeff


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## peluitohavanese

Hi Jeff,
In order for us to "help" them leave, they need to _want_ to leave. By continuing to show their dogs as Havanese in AKC shows and by remaining as HCA members, they are "riding the fence" and not showing any clear indications of wanting to leave. 
Arlene


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## casperkeep

Kimberly well said letter. When I got my Jillee she was the pick out of two litters. My breeders main concern was she wants her puppies to go to a great home first and foremost. Although I tried my hand at the whole showing thing it was just not for me right now. One day I would like to.


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## Beamer

Yes, why do they (the HSD people) continue to show their dogs in the Havanese cirlce? If they are a totally different breed, then what good is it to compete against 'the little fur ball called havanese'? 

Ryan


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## peluitohavanese

Quote:
"The Havana Silk Dog standard fits within the Havanese standard. It's just to tighter tolerances". 

Hmmmm where do I begin... if the HSD standard fits within the Havanese standard then why don't we see them winning more points in the show ring? Even when top name professional handlers are hired to show these dogs, they can't even get a single point on them! Judges judge to the standard as written and approved by the HCA parent club. Breeders avow to breed only to that standard. Writing your own standard to fit your own "style" or "type" of dog is a blatant violation of that vow. 
If your dog is an AKC registered Havanese and is being shown, you can bet your dollar that it WILL be judged by the HAVANESE standard and no other standard, because Havanese are registered with AKC. Period.
Now on to the subject about HSD dogs being a totally different breed. Not! The gene pool is the same and we all share many of the same ancestors in our dogs' pedigrees. 
Here is a hypothetical situation:
I have an AKC registered Havanese that doesn't quite conform to the standard as written and approved by the parent club. This Havanese has a curly fry (cinnamon bun) tail kind of like Basenji's have, and it's ears stick straight up instead of folding on each side of the head. In addition to that, instead of a rise from the front to the back (withers to rump), it has a rise from back to front (rump to withers). 
I am a kennel blind breeder who can't see the faults in my Havanese and think that my dog is the most awesome Havanese ever, and the healthiest Havanese ever, and by golly his genes are so strong that most, if not all of the dogs he produces look just like him and have all of the same characteristics mentioned above. So, that must mean that THIS is what the original Cuban Havanese looks like. Yes!!! 
So, I try to persuade and impose this "type" on other breeders, both HCA and non HCA and don't seem to attract too many followers, because most of them breed to the standard, and quite frankly know that this particular look isn't right. 
I gather up my followers, concoct a theory about how these dogs are so much healthier because they are "certified". Certified by who? Well by me and my followers of course! 
I start my own "breed" with my own "people" and dogs, and voila! We have the new "Pointy Eared CurlyQTail Alpine Sloping Havanese"!! PECASH for short
I take all of my PECASH's and base my entire "breed" and breeding program on them and of course all puppies are sold for exorbitant CASH because I guarantee their health. Mind you, these puppies are being sold for $2500 instead of $1500 so I have an extra $1000 per puppy, and if I have one puppy with health issues, well, it's no skin off my nose to replace that puppy with a free one!
Add to that that most PECASH's have a Fair hip rating and I have already limited by gene pool to only PECASH's that derived in one way or fashio from the original PECASH I have. Breed Fair to Fair to Fair and never insert an Excellent or a Good hip rating in your breeding and what is that a recipe for? Hip issues, I'd say.
So, when I see what is happening with these so called HSD's I can only shake my head and think the following:
1. They are NOT being bred to the AKC standard we all should uphold as owners of Havanese and mostly as Havanese Club of America breeders. We have a duty to our breed to uphold and protect it in every way, shape and form.
2. I have dangerously limited my breeding gene pool by:
a. limiting the dogs I can breed with because they must be "certified" and look a certain way.
b. limiting the people (breeders) I can work with, because I have alienated myself and my followers from the rest of the world of Havanese breeders who DO breed to the standard.
c. Is this more about me or the dogs?
Arlene


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## Julie

Jeff,
I just have to pop in here and say this----

The HSD people chose to break off from the HCA. That was their choice.However,they just didn't cordially get up and leave the table so to speak. There was alot of hateful/mean things said to fellow breeders and about the very person(s)that helped save the havanese breed that we have today(and they have today)....It was kinda like someone stomping on your Grandma(what they said about Dorothy Goodall)and that's just bull... you know? I'm not a breeder at all,just a pet owner,but by standing by and doing nothing while it goes on,is nothing short of a crime(in my moral judgement). No one would of cared,or I should say there wouldn't of been all the hoopla had they been cordial and said their peace and left. Instead,they festered a wound,trashed all breeders by saying the havanese were "inferior" dogs etc.and they still are doing some of it. If you are a HSD person and you think your dogs are healthier and better(they certain are not),but let's just go with it---then why in the heck would you stay on havanese boards and forums etc.lurking around and stirring the pot occasionally? To cause trouble? Look I have kids---if a kid kept stepping in (for over a year) and stirred things up you'd do what? Kick his ash....or he'd have his ash kicked by other kids eventually. That's what I'm saying.

Now look----I don't know ANY----ANY of these breeders/people at all..so I'm not taking sides....but even I'm tired of the bullsh_ _ they are causing,and I'm not getting hurt,you see? I think I'm very fair,but not afraid to speak up....I wish all the HSD people the best of luck-they just need to go and do their own thing,as they first decided.


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## LuvMiHav

That sounds like a pretty good deal. Has anyone approached whoever the main people are at the HSD place and tell them the HCA will help them with their AKC recognition if they'll stop showing as a Havanese and resign from the HCA?

Jeff



peluitohavanese said:


> Hi Jeff,
> In order for us to "help" them leave, they need to _want_ to leave. By continuing to show their dogs as Havanese in AKC shows and by remaining as HCA members, they are "riding the fence" and not showing any clear indications of wanting to leave.
> Arlene


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## juliav

LuvMiHav said:


> That sounds like a pretty good deal. Has anyone approached whoever the main people are at the HSD place and tell them the HCA will help them with their AKC recognition if they'll stop showing as a Havanese and resign from the HCA?
> 
> Jeff


I am cutting and pasting what Jan posted earlier in this thread on page 3.

"Ryan, here's what I'm told. The foundation dogs of the Havanese are the same foundation dogs that made up this silk group. AKC has said that it isn't possible for there to be 2 breeds with the same foundation dogs and that they will not recognize that group."


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## Havtahava

I've already said enough on my original post, but Julie I just have to tell you that I love that phrase "kick his ash." ound:


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## LuvMiHav

I don't know much about dogs. What I do know I usually get from websites and you can never tell if they are correct or not. The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club website says they got their breed from the English Toy Spaniel. I admit I was directed there from the HSD website.

I don't believe saying similar or same dogs cannot be foundation dogs of two breeds is correct if the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel came from English Toy Spaniels bred to look like old paintings of dogs with King Charles. Apparently they even gave a cash prize to the first English Toy Spaniel breeder who could breed a dog that looked like what is now the CKCS. It took them almost 20 years but they got their Kennel Club recognition. I think there are a couple of other breeds like that too.

Anyway, since it obviously can be done, why fight? Why not just help each side to get what they want?

Or is fighting a part of the sport?



juliav said:


> I am cutting and pasting what Jan posted earlier in this thread on page 3.
> 
> "Ryan, here's what I'm told. The foundation dogs of the Havanese are the same foundation dogs that made up this silk group. AKC has said that it isn't possible for there to be 2 breeds with the same foundation dogs and that they will not recognize that group."


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## Havtahava

Jeff, it can't be done. Check with AKC if you want to know more. The others have explained it as best they can. Heck, you can make it your own personal mission if you so desire! There have been many people on both sides of the fence that have tried to ensure the separation is distinct, but some just want to remain on both sides.


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## LuvMiHav

Kimberly,

You have a very nice website and your dogs are beautiful. I have an old Havanese (9) that I bought in NC. She's nothing like yours but she's our baby and we love her

Jeff


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## LuvMiHav

I'm going to leave this thread and move to happier ones. It seems many people are still bitter. I hope it will subside with time.

Jeff


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## peluitohavanese

In these cases AKC rules. They are the ruling body and have their own established criteria for accepting dogs in to the FSS Foundation Stock Service. Follow this link for more info: http://www.akc.org/breeds/fss_breeds.cfm
From the FSS they move on to the Miscellaneous class and then eventually to full fledged AKC registration. That is how the Havanese ended up being an AKC breed. 
There are certain criteria that HSD's obviously don't meet and that is why it won't happen.
Arlene


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## peluitohavanese

Jeff,
No one is bitter at all  We are simply trying to get the facts out there and in the open to try to clear up some of the confusion. There is much misinformation being passed along and that isn't fair to the majority of Havanese owners.
Arlene


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## peluitohavanese

Hi Jeff,
There is really nothing we or any group of people can do to "help" them move along. It is not up to us. It is up to the AKC. 
The AKC has strict criteria for dogs to enter the FSS (Foundation Stock Service). Here is what they have to say:
"The FSS® is not open to "rare" breeds that are a variation of an AKC-registrable breed or the result of a combination of two AKC-recognized breeds. This includes and is not limited to differences such as size (over and under), coat type, coat colors, and coat colors and/or types that are disqualifications from Conformation Events by AKC breed standards.The FSS® is not open to "rare" breeds that are a variation of an AKC-registrable breed or the result of a combination of two AKC-recognized breeds. This includes and is not limited to differences such as size (over and under), coat type, coat colors, and coat colors and/or types that are disqualifications from Conformation Events by AKC breed standards."

Arlene


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## Julie

LuvMiHav said:


> I'm going to leave this thread and move to happier ones. It seems many people are still bitter. I hope it will subside with time.
> 
> Jeff


Jeff,
I'm not sure if you think my post is bitter-----but I'm going to address it as so. I'm certainly not bitter,I could care less what HSD people do or not do.......I'm just telling you what I saw as a pet owner sitting way--way---way on the outside. My Dad always used to say "2 wrongs don't make a right" and he is absolutely right. You can expect to beat people down and be nasty and then expect everyone else to let you get away with it.

I can honestly say,the breeders on this forum seem to have always taken the high road for the most part---it's a shame everyone can't seem to do the same......of course on another note though,if everyone could of sit down and worked it out,there wouldn't of been this group breaking off from the breed in the first place. It's a shame....no doubt.Sometimes I think breeders suffer from what I call "breeder big head". Breeder big head to me is when a breeder thinks they do everything perfect. Their dogs are better then everyone else's,they know it all,etc. The problem with "b.big head" is they are like balloons..full of hot air,and eventually they'll pop and fart all the way to the ground again and feel deflated.It takes this experience to realize your mistake. Everyone experiences this in life at some point. Mom always said "don't get too big for your britches".....I think this is what has happened. IMO..
eace:


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## peluitohavanese

The problem with "b.big head" is they are like balloons..full of hot air,and eventually they'll pop and fart all the way to the ground again and feel deflated


Oh this is hilarious. I almost spit my coffee on my monitor!


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## Julie

oops!:tape:ound:


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## windfallhavs

Me too Arlene...my coworkers are looking at me like I am crazy! That was toooooo funny!


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## peluitohavanese

Hi Diane!! Long time no see! 
Breeders refer to it as Kennel Blindness, but I LIKE Julie's term "breeder big head", also known as b. big head" the deflating part is a riot!ound:


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## peluitohavanese

I'd like to add a little more to your cute statement Julie.... if I may 

"The problem with "b.big head" is they are like balloons..full of hot air,and eventually they'll pop and fart all the way to the ground again and feel deflated, and they leave a horrible smell behind them."

Arlene


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## Julie

ound:

I'm not a breeder,but I'm glad there is a term for it....kennel blindness...I've never heard that before...even when I read it,I wasn't sure it was the same.See? Now I know a nicer way to put it.:laugh:

The visual is kinda funny isn't it? Followed by a PEE----YEW-----

Seriously--I think everyone at times gets to start feeling over confident with whatever they are doing and it does come back to bite you in the ash....

I would bet all breeders have had a pup they lost or had an issue with--and it does happen. It's just nature.There is no reason to hide it or be ashamed of it. It should be shared so others can learn,and breeders could learn from each other.Maybe this already happens with most all of the hav breeders-IDK? 2 perfectly normal people can have a child that is handicapped,I'm sure it goes with dogs as well. When a person really simplifies it all---if the top 2 show dogs were bred,and everything was perfect....all their pups would be perfect show dogs too. I KNOW that doesn't happen-ever. 

I love my hav(I think he's the best)but I never lose sight that everyone else thinks theirs is the best also). That's called love.....


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## Doggie Nut

so, I've been gone for a little while and have been catching up.....Kimberly....we've never met in person but I've always liked you! Today, I like you even more! You stated your case so eloquently and made it very easy for a Hav novice like moi to understand! For me, it's about really loving and enjoying my beloved pet, Valentino! This morning I was sitting outside on my deck while he was enjoying the outdoors and he came over with his fav toy (which by the way is just about "dead" & needs a replacement!) and sat @ my feet and just looked wistfully at me with those gorgeous brown eyes with those long lashes just waiting for a game of fetch. I happily joined in and I think he would have chased and brought back that pitiful toy for hours if I had engaged him! I adore him and he adores me! A match made in heaven! I appreciate you staying with what works because I am reaping the benefits here at my house! Lovingly & respectufully written by Vicki, Valentino's mom & friend


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## juliav

Julie said:


> Jeff,
> Sometimes I think breeders suffer from what I call "breeder big head". Breeder big head to me is when a breeder thinks they do everything perfect. Their dogs are better then everyone else's,they know it all,etc. The problem with "b.big head" is they are like balloons..full of hot air,and eventually they'll pop and fart all the way to the ground again and feel deflated.


ound: ound: ound:

Good thing I wasn't drinking my 2nd cup of java yet!!! You are a riot Julie.


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## Dawna

That was a really nice post Vicki!


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## Doggie Nut

Thank you Dawna.....straight from the heart!


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## Thumper

> Sometimes I think breeders suffer from what I call "breeder big head". Breeder big head to me is when a breeder thinks they do everything perfect. Their dogs are better then everyone else's,they know it all,etc. The problem with "b.big head" is they are like balloons..full of hot air,and eventually they'll pop and fart all the way to the ground again and feel deflated.It takes this experience to realize your mistake. Everyone experiences this in life at some point. Mom always said "don't get too big for your britches".....I think this is what has happened. IMO..


Omgosh, that is hilarious and I just CHOKED on my coffee!!! ound: You are too funny, girl.

I'm really surprised to hear there are HSD breeders that remain in the HCA? That's a bit mindboggling to me.

As with any other 'club', I guess there are always those that join to find the grass is not as green as they anticipated..perhaps that is the case here.


----------



## Me&2Girls

Julie said:


> The problem with "b.big head" is they are like balloons..full of hot air,and eventually they'll pop and fart all the way to the ground again and feel deflated.












BBH - a new term coined by Julie just for forum members. OMG Julie - that is one of the funniest things I've read in a very, long time. Thank you so much for giving us all such a wonderful chuckle this morning. If I was more clever, I'd figure out a way to make a great looking graphic out of it and post it too. Congratulations my dear for your fabulous humor.


----------



## Beamer

So whats the deal with all the HSD people being put into 'bad standing' with the HCA? Is it really as bad as the HSD people are making it out to be? (illegal with law suits pending?, un-moral, EVIL, etc..)

Thanks!
Ryan


----------



## Janizona

Havtahava said:


> Havanese are not perfect, but they are perfect for me. I love their goofy antics, their floppy hair in their faces, the cocked head as they try to understand my words. I am amused by their demands and adore the patience while they wait for me to wake up in the morning. My Havs don't look the same as each other nor the same as my friends' Havanese, but I still love their unique appearance.
> 
> Some people were a little surprised at my outspokenness yesterday and I'm going to attempt to explain a little bit of why I said what I did.
> 
> I have had many, many dog breeds in my home throughout my life. It took several years before my husband and I agreed on adding our first Havanese to our family.
> 
> I have Havanese because I love this breed. I love them for all their joys, quirks and funniness. I take them with their problems, too, even the potty-training difficulties. I try to be very particular about evaluating each dog I have against the Havanese standard to ensure that I can continue to produce Havanese that look (structure) and act (temperament) like Havanese. I do my best to monitor their health and drive quite a long distance to encompass all the health testing recommended by the Havanese Club of America (HCA) and a few others tests too.
> 
> So, when some of my friends, mentors and people that I respect decided to start their own breed with their own standard, I was sad and disappointed, but decided to "live and let live." I did not even consider leaving Havanese. It wasn't really an option for me. I have Havanese and am committed to the Havanese standard as it is posted on the HCA and AKC web sites.
> 
> AKC only recognizes the Havanese and there is only one standard for our breed.
> 
> A year has passed since the divide and there are several people who are claiming to have both Havanese and Havana Silk Dogs within the same body of a single dog, and yet there are different standards for each. Some try to use the concepts of a registry & standard as if they are separate, but they can't be. If you have Havanese, you must breed to the Havanese standard, not some other "breed" standard. If we all picked & chose which standard to use, eventually some Havanese would have Papillion ears, Old English Sheepdog tails or German Shepherd toplines. We breed to the Havanese standard because we are preserving and improving the Havanese breed.
> 
> Like I said in the other thread, I have no problem with people owning HSDs as their pets. They are all innocent in this and every dog deserves to be loved and cared for. I don't really even have a problem with those that left to join the HSDAA - that's their choice. If you don't agree with a standard or an organization, I think it is best that you leave if you feel you can't live with it. Kudos to them. My problem is with those that try to ride both sides of the fence while discrediting the Havanese breed, even if just in subtle undertones.
> 
> It's time to get off the fence. Make a decision and stick with it if you are a breeder. You need to breed to one standard and stick to your convictions whatever they are.
> 
> Kimberly Gattey-Wood, a member of the Havanese Club of America in good standing
> 
> P.S. I know that every dog that I'm responsible for bringing into the world isn't going to be perfect and I'm not always going to be a perfect breeder, but I'm sure going to try for both those as most of my Havanese breeder friends do.


Thanks for expressing my sentiments so well Kimberly. We are proud to be owned by Havanese since 1994 and members in good standing with the Havanese Club of America. We will continue to breed our health tested, straight legged dogs to the AKC Havanese standard. Unfortunately in the years we've been breeding, we have produced several health problems which include seizures and Sebatious Adenitis. Every one of those affected dogs is related (1 or 2 generations back) to dogs in the Havana Silk dog registry.

There are no perfect dogs and they ALL carry for some health problem. If you've (generic you) been in the breed long enough you will produce something that will shake your breeding program up. In my opinion it's how you deal with those issues that set breeders apart. Sweeping things under the rug will not help eliminate problems.

My first mentor in the breed told me to NEVER tell anyone when you produce a pup with a problem or you'll get blackballed. She didn't stay my mentor for very long <grin>.

I'd like to encourage all pet owners and breeders to submit any health issues in your own dogs to the Pedigree Research that Mary Ellen Vickery is heading up. It's an invaluable tool for breeder to make sure they aren't picking dogs to breed together that have the same health issues in their lines. We always need more data. I'd attach the form but I don't know how <grin> but please feel free to write me privately at [email protected] and I'll send it to you.

Hava great day!


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## LuvMiHav

Tom,

I'd like a clear view of the big picture. I can see by your posts you appear to be a nice level headed guy. I'm interested in your opinion and I suspect many others are as well.

Jeff


----------



## Dawna

*hmmmm*

Well, 'Jeff', there are days worth of reading here on the forum that can give you a glimpse of the big picture. One person's viewpoint probably couldn't really provide you with that.

Your posts have a familiar ring to them......sure you haven't been here before?


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## Beamer

Dawna-- lol.. I thought the same thing to at first..lol... But I doubt it.. probably one of them though.. :suspicious:


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## marjrc

I have always loved a good debate, an intelligent one with all points of view expressed, facts, valid arguments and with people who are willing to admit some wrongdoing should that be the case. 

I think it's important to keep facts straight and see the big picture so that people like me, just an ordinary Hav owner with a huge passion for the breed, can understand what goes on behind the scenes. Knowing this makes me a better Hav owner and also well-armed with facts that I can present to any breeder should we decide to get another Hav puppy one day.

Kimberly, your letter to breeders is wonderful, smart and considerate.  Tom, your posts are also smart and considerate and I would love to be in the same room as you, Kimberly and at least another dozen reputable Havanese breeders and hear all sides to this issue. 

Personally, I understand the frustration of seeing a HSD accepted in both registries, and seeing breeders who claim they have both a Havanese, by AKC standards AND a Havanese by HSDA standards. I dont' think you can have both, in spite of what Tom says is natural in the horse world. Make a choice. Are you breeding to HSDA standards or to AKC standards?

I am sure that Tom and Pam have done wonders for the breed and it sounds like you are both very passionate and knowledgeable, and for that I applaud you. I also applaud all Havanese breeders who believe just as strongly about health testing and doing right by the dogs.

As to Julie's comments, well......... ound: ound: Thanks for the laugh, girl!


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## Melissa Miller

Well the reality is anyone can register here. MOST people ( on both sides) are legit. Then the select few who register under different names but have the same IP address, so its kinda obvious. 

I am making a general statement as I have not even poured through this thread, I know I got a couple of PM's and need to catch up. Sigh... HSD threads tend to drive me to drinking. 

Julie. I.love.you.


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## Dawna

Ryan,
That's sweet that you doubt it. Don't. It's a fact, Jack. 
Dawna


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## Beamer

Yeah, I gathered that from Melissa's post.. lol

Ryan


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## Dawna

That kind of stuff makes if difficult for people who are actually credible. Like Tom and Pam. I have never heard one negative thing about them as breeders, from either side of this issue.


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## peluitohavanese

Tom,
No one is insulting anyone here. It is an intelligent discussion of the FACTS.

Here are some facts about the _privilege_ and _honor _of being an HCA member:

"You must be in good standing with The American Kennel Club and subscribe to the purposes of this Club:

to encourage and promote quality in the breeding of purebred Havanese and to do all possible to bring their natural qualities to perfection

to encourage the organization of independent local Havanese Specialty Clubs in those localities where there are sufficient fanciers of the breed to meet the requirements of The American Kennel Club

to urge members and breeders to accept the standard of the breed as approved by The American Kennel Club as the only standard of excellence by which Havanese shall be judged

to do all in its power to protect and advance the interests of the breed and to encourage sportsmanlike competition at dog shows, obedience trials and tracking rests

to conduct sanctioned marches, specialty shows, obedience trials, and tracking tests under the rules of The American Kennel Club"

Period.

Now, I am sure you are a great breeder, and I can see you have many admirerers. I know my puppy buyers are very happy with me as as the puppy buyers of other good breeders. That's how it should be.

This has nothing to do with being a good person or breeder, but everything to do with being a member of HCA who adheres to the Constitution & Bylaws and COE.

Arlene


----------



## AgilityHav

I guess it probably got missed(who listens to a 17 year old anyway?) but can anyone offer as to why the dont allow chocolates? Its simple genetics that its a 50% chance a black dog carries chocolate genes......Just curious


----------



## maryam187

Kimberly, 
I have no idea what you or others have posted within the last month since I have no time whatsoever to spend on my beloved forum. To be honest, I don't mind what you MAY have said in a way that MAY have been disrespectful towards me as a so-called HSD owner. I respect you and believe to 'know' you well enough to assume you never ever meant to say anything harmful/bad/mean towards me. 
MANY HUGS to all of you from abroad :hug: I miss you guys!


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## marjrc

Totally Off Topic, so will keep it short. :biggrin1:

WE MISS YOU TOO, MARYAM!!!!!!!!! I was wondering when you'd be back with us. sigh....... miss your wit, girl. 

O.k............ :focus:


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## JASHavanese

Dawna said:


> Well, 'Jeff', there are days worth of reading here on the forum that can give you a glimpse of the big picture. One person's viewpoint probably couldn't really provide you with that.
> 
> Your posts have a familiar ring to them......sure you haven't been here before?


For some reason I keep smelling something minty. Maybe it's just a gas leak. :brushteeth:


----------



## Leeann

marjrc said:


> Totally Off Topic, so will keep it short. :biggrin1:
> 
> WE MISS YOU TOO, MARYAM!!!!!!!!! I was wondering when you'd be back with us. sigh....... miss your wit, girl.
> 
> O.k............ :focus:


From me and the boys also Maryam, WE MISS YOU!!!
p.s. you may not like Kimberly any more once you find out she is trying to steal Monte..


----------



## JASHavanese

AgilityHav said:


> I guess it probably got missed(who listens to a 17 year old anyway?) but can anyone offer as to why the dont allow chocolates? Its simple genetics that its a 50% chance a black dog carries chocolate genes......Just curious


If you don't have chocolate in the background of the dogs I doubt you're going to get a chocolate. They have to carry the gene to bring it forward.
Here's a good website on color http://www.mts.net/~mckay55/inherit.html


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## JASHavanese

Posh's Mom said:


> Yep, I'm pretty sure that's what happened to me. Posh was a wee one, barely making it to 8 inches before I got her, now she's closer to 9...or so. I won't rub that in my breeder's nose, as I think she would have finished her quickly. I think my breeder just realized she would be in a home that loved her so, and that's hard to find in this hardened world...


I like your breeder's way of thinking. Everyone here knows the story of Leslie and Shadow. When Leslie's heart was mended enough and she was ready for another puppy I had one that fit what she needed. It just so happened that that girl (Tori) was the pick of the litter and will always 'be the one that got away' but look at the home she's in!! I've been to her home (heck, it's only 1500 miles away LOL) and loved what I saw. Leslie needed her heart mended and I had no doubt this would be one very well taken care of dog and ohhhhhh so loved, so that's where she went. That's probably how your breeder felt about you too Amy.


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## JASHavanese

Julie said:


> The problem with "b.big head" is they are like balloons..full of hot air,and eventually they'll pop and fart all the way to the ground again and feel deflated.eace:


I'm not thinking of any group, just the words you said and I'm glad I didn't have coffee in my mouth at the time I read it. ound:


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## maryam187

:nono: Kimberly, no way will I let you steal MY Monte! Unless you want to look like this: :brick: Besides, Monte-pie isn't a 'baller' anymore and therefore of no interest for you. 

PS: thanks Marj and Leeann. Will be back mid September!

:focus:


----------



## Leslie

JASHavanese said:


> I like your breeder's way of thinking. Everyone here knows the story of Leslie and Shadow. When Leslie's heart was mended enough and she was ready for another puppy I had one that fit what she needed. *It just so happened that that girl (Tori) was the pick of the litter* and will always 'be the one that got away' but look at the home she's in!! I've been to her home (heck, it's only 1500 miles away LOL) and loved what I saw. Leslie needed her heart mended and I had no doubt this would be one very well taken care of dog and ohhhhhh so loved, so that's where she went. That's probably how your breeder felt about you too Amy.


Jan~ :hug: And now she's the pick of my heart! :kiss:


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## Lina

Maryam!!!! Can't wait to see you around more often! By the time you get back I will be on my Honeymoon, so you'll be able to settle in for about 2 weeks before I can properly welcome you back... hope you're having a TON of fun out there! :hug:

ahem.... Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.... :focus:


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## JASHavanese

maryam187 said:


> Besides, Monte-pie isn't a 'baller' anymore and therefore of no interest for you.
> 
> :focus:


I have a spayed standard poodle that nobody could get away from me. Breeders (ok, that's too general so maybe many breeders) are pet people also and follow their hearts. A doctor who lives near me has offered me 10,000 for her several times and could offer a million but she's a strong part of my life and heart and with me she'll stay unless something happens to both my husband and myself, and it's written in my will that he'll get her free. He has a copy of it as does the executor of my will. Now if we're driven off a cliff they need to look at him first ound:
(And there are no cliffs as we're on flat land) :biggrin1:


----------



## JASHavanese

Lina said:


> Maryam!!!! Can't wait to see you around more often! By the time you get back I will be on my Honeymoon, so you'll be able to settle in for about 2 weeks before I can properly welcome you back... hope you're having a TON of fun out there! :hug:
> 
> ahem.... Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.... :focus:


Wait....before we go back, when is the wedding? I know it's in here somewhere and for a while I followed a thread that talked about it but ME trying to find something here........well..........


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## Lina

Jan, LOL! It's on September 12th, we leave for our honeymoon on September 15th and get back September 30th.


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## JASHavanese

Leslie said:


> Jan~ :hug: And now she's the pick of my heart! :kiss:


Hey girl what are you doing on here with all that fun stuff around you!! :juggle: I couldn't resist that juggle one!
:hug::hug::hug:


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## AgilityHav

JASHavanese said:


> If you don't have chocolate in the background of the dogs I doubt you're going to get a chocolate. They have to carry the gene to bring it forward.
> Here's a good website on color http://www.mts.net/~mckay55/inherit.html


Dont worry, I understand genetics  I have actually written out what all of my dogs *probably* carry by looking at them/back at their pedigrees....(my girls are *probably* BB, dont carry chocolate) I was just using that as a general statement....anywhoo, what I was getting at was asking why the HSDs arnt allowed to be chocolate, is that theoreticlly you have a 25% chance of getting a chocolate puppy out of two black parents(if both parents were Bb). I know its a DQ for the Silk dogs, but I cant find anywere telling me why.


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## Beamer

Natasha,

Don't Chocolates have brown eye rims and whatnot? I'm guess thats the reason for the DQ since its not completely black.

Ryan


----------



## dboudreau

Natasha, If I remember correctly, the HSD's don't allow chocolates because the pigment is not black. The original FCI standard from the 60's (I had a copy but can't get my fingers on it right now) which I think is what they are basing their standard on didn't allow any other color pigment but black. So Chocolates with brown pigment would be disqualifed.

Sorry Ryan for repeating you, we crossed in posting.


----------



## Thumper

Natasha, 

It is a good question. I can't remember which HSD thread it was, but there was mention of chocolates turning up in Cuba, I don't know anything about genetics..I think it was the Infamous 'two diff breeds' thread, and maybe the question was answered in that thread, if not this one..here soon?

I haven't been on the forum much this summer..so I'm way behind on stuff here, but you are a very bright, articulate young lady and we all take you seriously no matter what your age . 

Kara


----------



## JASHavanese

Lina said:


> Jan, LOL! It's on September 12th, we leave for our honeymoon on September 15th and get back September 30th.


Oh how neat, it's coming up soon! Make sure we get a lot of pictures please. Pretty please? hoto: I feel like I've been part of it by reading some of the neat posts and can :ranger: and feel like I'm there on your happy day.


----------



## JASHavanese

AgilityHav said:


> I know its a DQ for the Silk dogs, but I cant find anywere telling me why.


I could tell you why but I'd get threatened with ANOTHER lawsuit and no it's not what's typed here about it but they might be saying that now because they'd get sued if they said publicly what we were told privately before this political move was started.


----------



## Tom King

I had a lot more to say but it looks like it will need to wait until after the hearings. I haven't read any of the posts on this thread since I last posted last night but will make some new threads to clarify a lot after the hearings are over in August.

In the meantime try not to make assumptions based on the one side that it seems most here have only heard.

And the disqualification is because it should be selected out of the breed.


----------



## Tom King

I did some catching up on this thread. When was the Constitution changed and under which process in it was the change made? I wonder what the consequences are with AKC for not following the Constitution and Bylaws. If everyone had just sat still and not worried so much about the HSDAA I'm sure their numbers would dwindle by just not repaying dues.

Article VII
Amendments
Section 1. Amendments to the constitution and bylaws and the Standard for the breed may be proposed by the Board of Directors or by written petition addressed to the Secretary signed by twenty percent of the membership in good standing. Amendments proposed by such petition shall be promptly considered by the Board of Directors and must be submitted to the members with recommendations of the Board by the Secretary for a vote within three months of the date when the petition was received by the Secretary.
Section 2. The constitution and bylaws or the Standard for the breed may be amended at any time provided a copy of the proposed amendment has been mailed by the Secretary to each member in good standing on the date of mailing, accompanied by a ballot on which a choice for or against the action to be taken shall be indicated. Dual?envelope procedures described in Article IV, Section 4(d) shall be followed for handling such ballots, to assure secrecy of the vote. Notice with such ballot shall specify a date not less than thirty days after the date postmarked by which date the ballots must be returned to the Secretary to be counted. The favorable vote of two?thirds of the members in good standing who return valid ballots within the time limit shall be required to effect any such amendment.
Section 3. (No amendment to the constitution and bylaws or to the Standard for the breed that is adopted by the Club shall become effective until it has been approved by the Board of Directors of The American Kennel Club.)

It really makes you wonder about the thought processes going on here. Did anyone speak up that maybe it wouldn't be a good idea to not follow the Constitution and Bylaws?

Thanks,
Tom



peluitohavanese said:


> Tom,
> No one is insulting anyone here. It is an intelligent discussion of the FACTS.
> 
> Here are some facts about the _privilege_ and _honor _of being an HCA member:
> 
> "You must be in good standing with The American Kennel Club and subscribe to the purposes of this Club:
> 
> to encourage and promote quality in the breeding of purebred Havanese and to do all possible to bring their natural qualities to perfection
> 
> to encourage the organization of independent local Havanese Specialty Clubs in those localities where there are sufficient fanciers of the breed to meet the requirements of The American Kennel Club
> 
> to urge members and breeders to accept the standard of the breed as approved by The American Kennel Club as the only standard of excellence by which Havanese shall be judged
> 
> to do all in its power to protect and advance the interests of the breed and to encourage sportsmanlike competition at dog shows, obedience trials and tracking rests
> 
> to conduct sanctioned marches, specialty shows, obedience trials, and tracking tests under the rules of The American Kennel Club"
> 
> A member in good standing is as follows:
> 
> "embers in good standing shall mean only those persons who are members of HCA, who have paid their annual membership fees for the current year, have no outstanding financial obligations to the club, and are not suspended from AKC and/or HCA. Members who own, breed, sell or promote a so-called Havana Silk Dog, which is deemed contrary to the best interests of HCA and Havanese, shall not be considered to be members in good standing."
> 
> Period.
> 
> Now, I am sure you are a great breeder, and I can see you have many admirerers. I know my puppy buyers are very happy with me as as the puppy buyers of other good breeders. That's how it should be.
> 
> This has nothing to do with being a good person or breeder, but everything to do with being a member of HCA who adheres to the Constitution & Bylaws and COE.
> 
> Arlene


Sorry, but your edit was a little late. Thanks for making it public record. Any changes to an AKC Parent Clubs' Bylaws has to be submitted and approved by the AKC. This can get the HCA into a lot of trouble with AKC.


----------



## Tom King

Also I forgot to comment on the FSS posts.

At the first formative meeting for the HSDAA I brought up this question. I was satisfied with the response and that is not at all the only way that a new breed can come in. The AKC was consulted about how to go about it. There is a lot of misinformation since one employee of the AKC said that it would never happen and another "expert" said that it couldn't happen based on coming in through the FSS.


----------



## Me&2Girls

Kimberly, I do want to compliment you for such a lovely letter. I should have done that before posting my LOL one about bbh. My apologies.

Tom, at this point, I feel you need to share how the AKC has said how the HSD dogs can become their own breed if not through FSS. As far as I'm aware, that's pretty much the only way.


----------



## AgilityHav

OK, Im slightly lost....what hearings? Is someone sueing someone?


----------



## Beamer

Tom,
Why are you guys being put on trial by the HCA? You witness to something? Are you seriously making the trip to Richmond later this month?

Ryan


----------



## Tom King

Quote:
Tom, at this point, I feel you need to share how the AKC has said how the HSD dogs can become their own breed if not through FSS. As far as I'm aware, that's pretty much the only way.

The parent club can petiton the AKC for a split of the breed or at some point if there are changes made to the Havanese Standard that the HSDAA dogs no longer fit such as allowing bowed legs. There were bets made by some about how soon some would want to get bowed legs into the standard and no one bet early enough so there was no winner. The HSDAA has gone way beyond what is required of a breed to be accepted and way beyond what any new Registry has done in a little over a year.

As far as I know, no one cares any more about being accepted into AKC like they did to start with.


----------



## Cheryl

Let me first comment that I am not a breeder and I have avoided posting on the subject Havanese vs. HSD. My opinions closely resemble Julie’s. I have a ton of respect for Havanese breeders because they have given me 2 delightful stars in my life. I have read Kimberly’s post and agree with what she has written. For those who have not met her, you are missing out. She may be one of the most incredible people I have ever met. 

Regarding the HSD split, I think I understand your motives. However, I wonder if it is possible to breed toward a “tighter” standard without sacrificing health issues. I know that Havanese breeders breed toward their standard without concern for color, etc. When you add HSD characteristics such as high tail carriage and muzzle to head ratio, do you stand the risk of sacrificing health? Also, Tom--I do not read insults in this thread--just questions.

Before the HSD split there were a few breeders that provided excellent advice and information for the Havanese Forum . Tom, although you do not post as often, your advice continues to be worthwhile. Greg, for instance posts rarely, and I miss his advice.

Jan--I will admire you from a distance forever as a person who healed Leslie. This forum has provided me a place to fall in love with people I have never met. Thank you, Jan. And Thank you, Leslie.

I am a practicing RN. My practice has changed over the 28 years I have worked in this field because we, as nurses, look at evidence, and change the policies where we work. After talking to a few Havanese breeders, I believe they do the same. 

Back to the subject at hand, Tom--your guarantee would give me the comfort to buy a dog from you if I did not know you. It speaks to us “pet owners.”


----------



## Havtahava

Cheryl, the feelings are mutual.


----------



## Melissa Miller

So the year I cant go to the National and there is going to be Court TV action???? 

So are they putting people on trial who went to HSDAA to get them out of HCA?
I dont see why one would want to stay in the HCA anyway.... with all some of them say about how unhealthy our dogs are. 

If there is a white bronco chase, someone CALL ME!


----------



## Julie

Tom,
I'm sorry I wasn't able to post sooner,as I was out of state,but my "Breeder Big Head" comments were not directed specifically at anyone,including you or HSD people. I think most people interpreted my post as trying to be funny...and maybe the way I actually say it is(?).......but honestly---I meant it. I think ALL people suffer from this at some point,all people. Be it a Mom,a police officer,a crafter, a mechanic,a writer,hav breeder,hsd breeder----whoever. Everyone at some point thinks they know it all and are something bigger and better then everyone else. They get the "big head"--you see? All mom's have experienced this when they think their child didn't do it--and then they find out their kid isn't perfect and started it all? You are humiliated....that is what I mean. I know probably most breeders(just guessing)kinda feels they turn out "thee best" havs,but reality is something different. That's ok too,but large inflated ideas always come back to bite the person in the ash...Confidence is good but "big head" goes beyond confidence.


----------



## Tom King

Julie, No worries. I don't get mad or hold grudges. I guess it's right at the edge of impossible to have a civilized discussion on it outside of a court.


----------



## Me&2Girls

Tom, I do think it's important to continue to have a discussion despite some people who will get a bit "difficult". We can always agree to disagree but be polite to each other. I know I wasn't active on the forum during the split and I know some really awful things were said other places, so give me a fish smack if I'm bringing up something that's been discussed ad nausea um. We do all come from the original 11 or so (well the U.S. started that way). I really, really think it's important to keep the lines of communication open. What, god forbid, if a disease is discovered that affects both and if we band together for special research that they can identify a marker that will prevent sick dogs from being bred? My previous breed is Keeshonden and together all the breeders worked towards identification of a condition that affected dogs after the age of 5. Now we know how to test, prevent the gene from carrying on and how to successfully manage the disease process and have the dogs live. Can't ask for a better outcome than that.

Sorry for the long post, but I'm kinda feeling it's important to keep talking but be civil. Not saying you aren't. Just making a point.


----------



## JASHavanese

What are the charges?



Tom King said:


> I did some catching up on this thread. When was the Constitution changed and under which process in it was the change made? I wonder what the consequences are with AKC for not following the Constitution and Bylaws. If everyone had just sat still and not worried so much about the HSDAA I'm sure their numbers would dwindle by just not repaying dues.
> 
> Article VII
> Amendments
> Section 1. Amendments to the constitution and bylaws and the Standard for the breed may be proposed by the Board of Directors or by written petition addressed to the Secretary signed by twenty percent of the membership in good standing. Amendments proposed by such petition shall be promptly considered by the Board of Directors and must be submitted to the members with recommendations of the Board by the Secretary for a vote within three months of the date when the petition was received by the Secretary.
> Section 2. The constitution and bylaws or the Standard for the breed may be amended at any time provided a copy of the proposed amendment has been mailed by the Secretary to each member in good standing on the date of mailing, accompanied by a ballot on which a choice for or against the action to be taken shall be indicated. Dual?envelope procedures described in Article IV, Section 4(d) shall be followed for handling such ballots, to assure secrecy of the vote. Notice with such ballot shall specify a date not less than thirty days after the date postmarked by which date the ballots must be returned to the Secretary to be counted. The favorable vote of two?thirds of the members in good standing who return valid ballots within the time limit shall be required to effect any such amendment.
> Section 3. (No amendment to the constitution and bylaws or to the Standard for the breed that is adopted by the Club shall become effective until it has been approved by the Board of Directors of The American Kennel Club.)
> 
> It really makes you wonder about the thought processes going on here. Did anyone speak up that maybe it wouldn't be a good idea to not follow the Constitution and Bylaws?
> 
> Thanks,
> Tom
> 
> Sorry, but your edit was a little late. Thanks for making it public record.


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## peluitohavanese

Tom King said:


> I did some catching up on this thread. When was the Constitution changed and under which process in it was the change made? I wonder what the consequences are with AKC for not following the Constitution and Bylaws. If everyone had just sat still and not worried so much about the HSDAA I'm sure their numbers would dwindle by just not repaying dues.
> 
> Article VII
> Amendments
> Section 1. Amendments to the constitution and bylaws and the Standard for the breed may be proposed by the Board of Directors or by written petition addressed to the Secretary signed by twenty percent of the membership in good standing. Amendments proposed by such petition shall be promptly considered by the Board of Directors and must be submitted to the members with recommendations of the Board by the Secretary for a vote within three months of the date when the petition was received by the Secretary.
> Section 2. The constitution and bylaws or the Standard for the breed may be amended at any time provided a copy of the proposed amendment has been mailed by the Secretary to each member in good standing on the date of mailing, accompanied by a ballot on which a choice for or against the action to be taken shall be indicated. Dual?envelope procedures described in Article IV, Section 4(d) shall be followed for handling such ballots, to assure secrecy of the vote. Notice with such ballot shall specify a date not less than thirty days after the date postmarked by which date the ballots must be returned to the Secretary to be counted. The favorable vote of two?thirds of the members in good standing who return valid ballots within the time limit shall be required to effect any such amendment.
> Section 3. (No amendment to the constitution and bylaws or to the Standard for the breed that is adopted by the Club shall become effective until it has been approved by the Board of Directors of The American Kennel Club.)
> 
> It really makes you wonder about the thought processes going on here. Did anyone speak up that maybe it wouldn't be a good idea to not follow the Constitution and Bylaws?
> 
> Thanks,
> Tom
> 
> Sorry, but your edit was a little late. Thanks for making it public record.


"If everyone had just sat still and not worried so much about the HSDAA I'm sure their numbers would dwindle by just not repaying dues. "

Ummm...they could have done that when this year's renewals were mailed and they chose not to, but I guess it was better to wait another whole year huh?


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## Beamer

Hmmm, why are they doing these proceedings during the Specialty anyhow? I would think they would want to conentrate on putting on a great show for the 5 days instead of focussing attention and resources on this??? lol

Ryan


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## peluitohavanese

Well, we can speculate until eternity I guess. The annual meeting is always held during the specialty and it is a meeting of all members and not just the Board. 
I will just be so glad when this is done and over and everyone goes their way and we can move on with progress.
Arlene


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## Julie

peluitohavanese said:


> I will just be so glad when this is done and over and everyone goes their way and we can move on with progress.


Arlene,
This is what I hope happens. I hope they go their way if they choose to,and just leave the hav people alone and vise/versa. Progress--I certainly hope so.eace:


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## Jennifer Clevenger

JASHavanese said:


> With respect, that's where we disagree. The HCA, the AKC parent club of the Havanese, sets forth a standard that we are to breed to. When you breed to a different standard, in my eyes that is discrediting the Havanese breed.
> The logo your 'political movement' is having made doesn't even resemble a Havanese with that high tail and huge long neck nor does it resemble the pictures submitted with it.
> Oops, I wasn't supposed to know about that. :tape:


I am going to say one thing on this topic. There are breeders who are high up in the HCA who are breeding Blue Havanese. Doesn't that go against our standard? Should they be thrown out or is it just a matter of turning our backs to that? So don't stand on a high horse and act like this is the worse thing for HCA. Just wait until the health problems escalate because of the dilute gene they are playing with in their consortium! It seems like no one else is alarmed by it.


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## Julie

What is a blue havanese?


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## Jennifer Clevenger

OH, and I also wanted to state that even though I didn't go to HSD some of my good friends did. I still talk to some of them everyday. We are friends outside of the dogs. They did what they felt was best for them and I did what I had set out to do three years in the making. I am proud to say that I am an HCA member in good standing but I am also happy to say that Beth Johnson is one of my good friends and mentor who has taught me a ton.


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## Jennifer Clevenger

Julie said:


> What is a blue havanese?


Blue Havanese are just that. They are Hav who have a blueish colored coat with a blue nose. It is the blue gene that is like playing russian roulette with a poor puppies life. Ask any breeder of a dashhound, collie or any other breed who has the gene. There are all kinds of problems associated with the gene.


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## mckennasedona

I've never heard of a blue Havanese. From your post Jennifer, I assume it's a recessive gene but what does a Blue Hav look like? Are they essentially black? Just curious...

Back to your regularly scheduled topic.


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## Kathy

Jennifer Clevenger said:


> Blue Havanese are just that. They are Hav who have a blueish colored coat with a blue nose. It is the blue gene that is like playing russian roulette with a poor puppies life. Ask any breeder of a dashhound, collie or any other breed who has the gene. There are all kinds of problems associated with the gene.


Actually, this is not a proven statement for "blues" in any breed. There is speculation, but not fact.


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## Julie

Jennifer Clevenger said:


> Blue Havanese are just that. They are Hav who have a blueish colored coat with a blue nose. It is the blue gene that is like playing russian roulette with a poor puppies life. Ask any breeder of a dashhound, collie or any other breed who has the gene. There are all kinds of problems associated with the gene.


Really? Well I don't think I've heard of that before. I read your post and thought it was something breeders know,like a slang or something. I didn't realize it literally meant a blue coloring.

I know shelties can't be bred blue merle to blue merle and if are white faced with no spot over the eye are blind. I saw 2 at a ladies house. OMG---It was so sad. One with just a white face was completely blind and did nothing but stand in his area barking and excessively turning in a counter clockwise circle. Gosh--it was just pathetic.


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## Jennifer Clevenger

Julie said:


> Really? Well I don't think I've heard of that before. I read your post and thought it was something breeders know,like a slang or something. I didn't realize it literally meant a blue coloring.
> 
> I know shelties can't be bred blue merle to blue merle and if are white faced with no spot over the eye are blind. I saw 2 at a ladies house. OMG---It was so sad. One with just a white face was completely blind and did nothing but stand in his area barking and excessively turning in a counter clockwise circle. Gosh--it was just pathetic.


That is where they are headed. Breeding blue to blue.


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## ama0722

I thought in shelties the problem was breeding two merles together not what color the merle was?

:focus:


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## Me&2Girls

I do know that Lynn Nieto (sp?) is doing a study of blue Havanese to find out if there are any health problems. I believe she thinks they are healthy and has one of her own.


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## Julie

ama0722 said:


> I thought in shelties the problem was breeding two merles together not what color the merle was?
> 
> :focus:


Yes,you are right Amanda.....but also,if they have a white faced sheltie without a spot over the eye it is blind.

I was at this breeders house to look at her pups/kennel. The kennel was gorgeous(better then the house)but the lady experimented with her breeding. I knew it because of research and her answers to my questions. Gosh--it was sad. It needed to be put down---seriously.It was sad. Needless to say,I left without a pup from her. I went else where and got my boy Vincent!


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## ama0722

Julie- I watched a tv show awhile ago about it with aussies and border collies. Very sad and breeders definitely need to put in a lot of research first


I am thinking all of the breed listed so far with problems with blues are also merles, right? And there are no merle havanese right?


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## Melissa Miller

Whats the point in breeding a blue hav? Why take the risk with so many unknowns? I think we have a ton of perfectly good Black nose Havs.


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## mckennasedona

> Whats the point in breeding a blue hav?


My thought exactly. What's wrong with the perfectly good and beautiful array of colors that exist in the Havanese breed now? Is it because someone wants to start a new fad in pets? Is it because someone wants to charge more money for something "rare"?


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## Julie

Over the weekend I was at a Sweet Corn Festival in Illinois and as I stood in the middle of a street of venders,something caught my eye-----Mom asked what are you looking at? I told her that dog. There was a young girl standing there with a pup that kinda looked like a hav,but yet...not a very "good" one I'd say.....the coloring was cool----it was marked like bermese mountain dog,but had the body of a hav without the lush coat and almost no feathering on the tail. The thing was----it was the size of Quincy. Mom asked what are you doing? I said I want a better look at that dog. As I approached the girl Mom asked her what kind of dog she had. She said it was a cavalier king charles spaniel and a havanese. I almost crapped my pants! I said really? Well I have a 100% havanese--how old is your dog? She said she had it 3 months,and it was a girl from a woman in Iowa. I asked her where in Iowa and she told me Manchester. I sensed the girl felt awkward,so I didn't say or ask anymore,but as my Mom gushed over it,I told Mom-that's really sad Mom. Someone is breeding a hav with a cavalier and they already have huge health problems in the cavalier breed. Sad...

The markings were though very striking....can you imagine the size of this dog if it isn't full grown though?


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## JASHavanese

mckennasedona said:


> My thought exactly. What's wrong with the perfectly good and beautiful array of colors that exist in the Havanese breed now? Is it because someone wants to start a new fad in pets? Is it because someone wants to charge more money for something "rare"?


The blue hav already exists in our breed and isn't a new fad. The puppies that are blue and in a study are not being sold and the people have taken the responsibility of keeping these dogs and also paying for any health problems that may come up. Since the blue hav is already in our breed, they want a study of them. We allowed chocolates and a lot of people are still up in arms over that dilute gene. Does that make chocolates ill or bred for more money?
We can't compare a blue merle to a blue hav....the genes aren't the same. 
There are 2 blues. One is a true blue that has blue pigment, the other is born black and lightens over time to a silver or gray color with black pigment. The latter is common and allowed in our standard and quite beautiful. 
The true blue has the coloring of the Weimaraner and that breed is doing just fine. Let's not mix the merle gene in here because that's not what we're dealing with. 
Right now the true blue isn't allowed into our standard because there is no long term health testing that's been done on them and instead of jumping into allowing them, a group is taking their time, their own money, and watching them. 
If this was not something that was already in our breed it would bother me greatly, but that isn't the case. It's there, now it's time to find out if there are any problems with them. I admire the people I know in the study for their dedication to our breed without blinking at the responsibility it brings. No fad, no money being made from it, no puppies being sold, but a lot of responsibility they have put upon themselves.


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## Jennifer Clevenger

Me&2Girls said:


> I do know that Lynn Nieto (sp?) is doing a study of blue Havanese to find out if there are any health problems. I believe she thinks they are healthy and has one of her own.


She has had them coming out of her lines for a while. Now she is doing trial breedings with a few others to "test" and see if any health problems pop up.


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## mckennasedona

Thank you Jan for clearing that up. I had no idea that blue existed in Havs so I jumped to a conclusion that I shouldn't have. Thank you also for explaining that the coloring is similar to Weimaraner.


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## Jennifer Clevenger

JASHavanese said:


> The blue hav already exists in our breed and isn't a new fad. The puppies that are blue and in a study are not being sold and the people have taken the responsibility of keeping these dogs and also paying for any health problems that may come up. Since the blue hav is already in our breed, they want a study of them. We allowed chocolates and a lot of people are still up in arms over that dilute gene. Does that make chocolates ill or bred for more money?
> We can't compare a blue merle to a blue hav....the genes aren't the same.
> There are 2 blues. One is a true blue that has blue pigment, the other is born black and lightens over time to a silver or gray color with black pigment. The latter is common and allowed in our standard and quite beautiful.
> The true blue has the coloring of the Weimaraner and that breed is doing just fine. Let's not mix the merle gene in here because that's not what we're dealing with.
> Right now the true blue isn't allowed into our standard because there is no long term health testing that's been done on them and instead of jumping into allowing them, a group is taking their time, their own money, and watching them.
> If this was not something that was already in our breed it would bother me greatly, but that isn't the case. It's there, now it's time to find out if there are any problems with them. I admire the people I know in the study for their dedication to our breed without blinking at the responsibility it brings. No fad, no money being made from it, no puppies being sold, but a lot of responsibility they have put upon themselves.


I beg to differ on this with you, Jan. A person who bought one of her blue Havs is now having a lot of health problems with her puppy. She is selling them.


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## JASHavanese

mckennasedona said:


> I've never heard of a blue Havanese. From your post Jennifer, I assume it's a recessive gene but what does a Blue Hav look like? Are they essentially black? Just curious...
> 
> Back to your regularly scheduled topic.


They're beautiful. No, no black in them. Here's a photo of the color of fur and pigment of a Weim and it's the same in our breed. http://michiganweimaranerrescue.com/AvailDogs.html


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## JASHavanese

Jennifer Clevenger said:


> I beg to differ on this with you, Jan. A person who bought one of her blue Havs is now having a lot of health problems with her puppy. She is selling them.


One of whose puppies? The true blues are staying in a study and from what I'm told, they are not being sold. Don't judge a whole color on one dog. What if that happened when people wanted the chocolate included into our breed? One dog does not make a blanket statement.


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## JASHavanese

Jennifer Clevenger said:


> She has had them coming out of her lines for a while. Now she is doing trial breedings with a few others to "test" and see if any health problems pop up.


Jennifer you're taking a part of a story and trying to make it whole. I'm not going to say who is or isn't in the study as it isn't my place since I'm not involved but you only have parts and it's not fair to judge anything that way.


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## JASHavanese

mckennasedona said:


> Thank you Jan for clearing that up. I had no idea that blue existed in Havs so I jumped to a conclusion that I shouldn't have. Thank you also for explaining that the coloring is similar to Weimaraner.


You're welcome Susan. We all jump to conclusions from time to time..it's human nature when we don't have all the details  I'm guilty of it too so you're in good company. I remember the days I was so brain washed that I believed the chocolates were the worst thing that ever happened. Then I did some research and found out that isn't so. :biggrin1:


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## Jennifer Clevenger

The whole point to this conversation is to say that if the HCA is throwing people out based on them not following the Code of Ethics then how can they not do it to these people. Isn't following the standard to breed part of the COE? If so then show me where blue noses are in the standard.


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## JASHavanese

Jennifer Clevenger said:


> The whole point to this conversation is to say that if the HCA is throwing people out based on them not following the Code of Ethics then how can they not do it to these people. Isn't following the standard to breed part of the COE? If so then show me where blue noses are in the standard.


When chocolates were allowed into our standard did they just one day come out of thin air because it was then allowed?


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## JASHavanese

Beamer said:


> Hmmm, why are they doing these proceedings during the Specialty anyhow? I would think they would want to conentrate on putting on a great show for the 5 days instead of focussing attention and resources on this??? lol
> 
> Ryan


Ryan, the National is much more than a dog show. A dog show is part of it but so is a Board of Directors meeting and a meeting of the members of the HCA. We are scattered all over the country and the National is the one place we can get together. There are also seminars, goodies to buy, raffles, an auction, etc, etc.


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## peluitohavanese

Color
All colors are acceptable, singly or in any combination. No preference is given to one color over another. The skin may be freckled or parti-colored

This is straight from the standard. There is no mention of the word blue. Only chocolate is mentioned. Where do you get that idea from, and I see you are on this forum now stirring up the pot.
Arlene


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## peluitohavanese

Neither Jan, nor I, nor any other HCA member is or should even be discussing this on a forum. This is being handled where it needs to be handled (and it ain't on a forum), and we can speculate until the cows come home.
Arlene


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## tejanoHavs

Melissa Miller said:


> Whats the point in breeding a blue hav? Why take the risk with so many unknowns? I think we have a ton of perfectly good Black nose Havs.


That's my thought exactly, Melissa! What a dangerous road we're heading down here.

Many other breeds who allow blue dilutes also have color dilution alopecia (Dobe, Berner, Chow, Chi, Min Pin, Poodle, Yorkie, Whippet, Sheltie, Dachshund, etc). A great starter publication about dilute colors (blue, not merle) and related health issues can be found in the Journal of Vet Science http://www.vetsci.org/2005/pdf/259.pdf. 

Another good reference is here http://www.upei.ca/cidd/Diseases/dermatology/colour%20dilution%20alopecia.htm. The IG parent club also has a nice write up on CDA and blue dogs in their breed http://italiangreyhound.org/pages/702healthpages/cda.html. 

I'd also be concerned about deafness and micropthalmia in our breed, two conditions already present to a small degree. In some breeds a lack of pigment can go hand in hand with autoimmune diseases. Cyclic neutropenia has been documented in color dilute Collies (https://www.vetconnect.com.au/5min/data/04930493.htm). And don't even get me started on what we might expect when people decide to breed two dilute Havs in terms of health of the pups. 

What a mess&#8230;.all for what&#8230;dogs who are striking (read that flashy in the show ring)? Color me sick at the thought!


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## Julie

Jan,
The blue color came up and it reminded me of the blue merle in the sheltie breed. I wasn't talking about havanese----just blue merle's in the SHELTIE breed. It made a connection to me in my head---but in no way was I saying or making a link automatically into havanese. Actually--if you re-read those posts,Jennifer said it was similiar(at least in idea).


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## windfallhavs

Hey Arlene!

I think they are referring to the blue-pigmented havanese. Apparently there is a blue dilution where the pigment is not black, but blue. I've never seen one nor have I heard anything about anyone purposely breeding for them, or any health study being done on them...but I guess you learn something new every day. 

Go figure. 

Hi Cheri, nice to see you on the forum!


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## tejanoHavs

Hi Diane! I come over here just to give Melissa and Dawna nightmares :biggrin1: Not really girls....love y'all! You're right that the blue I was talking about is one that does not have black pigment. Like you, I've not spoken to anyone who breeds them on purpose but it is a mutation which can occur. I would hate to see a change to the standard to allow blue pigmentation and would prefer that they remain a mutation rather than an acceptable color/pigment combo.

See you at Nationals?


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## AgilityHav

Just wanted to say one thing  I know Im not an expert by many means, and most people on this board probably have more experiance than me, but I do like to study(while my history tests dont always prove that, dog matters are a differnt story  )

As to what someone was saying earlier, comparing Chocolates and Blues, the genes that determine those colors are two differnt genes. The "B" gene determines if a dog will have black or brown pigment....a.k.a. a "normal" colored have or a chocolate hav, respectivly. If a dogs "B" gene is BB they have black pigment and will only produce puppies with black pigment. Dogs with the Bb gene are Black but can produce Black or chocolate dogs, and dogs with bb are chocolate and can produce either. Blue dogs are caused by the "D" gene, or dillution gene. This gene can play on both blacks and browns(Im using browns because I can type it faster than chocolates...). a DD dog will appear dark black/brown and only prduce dark pigmented dogs. Dd will show dark, but can produce dilluted dogs if bred to a Dd or dd dog. a dd dog is diluted and will appear and possibly produce(if bred to dd or Dd) "blue" or "Latte"....just wanted to clarify the differnce...and explain Blues a little more in depth to those who dont know much about them 

I hope that makes sense


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## Jennifer Clevenger

peluitohavanese said:


> Color
> All colors are acceptable, singly or in any combination. No preference is given to one color over another. The skin may be freckled or parti-colored
> 
> This is straight from the standard. There is no mention of the word blue. Only chocolate is mentioned. Where do you get that idea from, and I see you are on this forum now stirring up the pot.
> Arlene


No, Arlene I was making a point not stirring a pot. You do that best. The reason why it doesn't say anything about blue is because it isn't acceptable by the HCA. I also want to comment on Jan's post about it not being something she would accept if it wasn't already occuring.... If that's true then you support short hairs from being bred on purpose. Would you support a consortium of breeders working to bring them into the standard also?


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## peluitohavanese

I support the Havanese standard as it is written Jennifer. I support the HCA and it's Constitution and ByLaws as they are written Jennifer. 
I DO NOT support or condone any HSD activity or breeders. I DO support all of the club members in the HCA. I would say the word "consortium" applies much better to the HSDAA and it's followers and cronies.
I am signing off this post. I am going to KC tomorrow and won't be back until Sunday. Am visiting with the Tapscott's and showing there. Remember them Jennifer?

Everyone, have a great weekend! I am starting mine off early. 
Chao!!
Arlene


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## JASHavanese

tejanoHavs said:


> That's my thought exactly, Melissa! What a dangerous road we're heading down here.
> 
> Many other breeds who allow blue dilutes also have color dilution alopecia (Dobe, Berner, Chow, Chi, Min Pin, Poodle, Yorkie, Whippet, Sheltie, Dachshund, etc). A great starter publication about dilute colors (blue, not merle) and related health issues can be found in the Journal of Vet Science http://www.vetsci.org/2005/pdf/259.pdf.
> 
> Another good reference is here http://www.upei.ca/cidd/Diseases/dermatology/colour%20dilution%20alopecia.htm. The IG parent club also has a nice write up on CDA and blue dogs in their breed http://italiangreyhound.org/pages/702healthpages/cda.html.
> 
> I'd also be concerned about deafness and micropthalmia in our breed, two conditions already present to a small degree. In some breeds a lack of pigment can go hand in hand with autoimmune diseases. Cyclic neutropenia has been documented in color dilute Collies (https://www.vetconnect.com.au/5min/data/04930493.htm). And don't even get me started on what we might expect when people decide to breed two dilute Havs in terms of health of the pups.
> 
> What a mess&#8230;.all for what&#8230;dogs who are striking (read that flashy in the show ring)? Color me sick at the thought!


Cyclic Hematopoiesis dealt only with collie puppies. Color Dilution Alopecia deals with hair loss and they say the cause is unknown. How many true blue havs have been documented with this?


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## Julie

You know -----seriously------ I know you guys are all breeders and you do what you know best but I'm so happy I just am a pet owner. I have no doubt you are all wonderful,caring breeders.......lets just put this blue topic to bed,ok?:grouphug:eace::grouphug:eace:


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## mellowbo

http://ahavapicaro.homestead.com/fanmarlitter.html

Evidently these are blues?
sorry Julie, just want to show some blues I found.


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## JASHavanese

Jennifer Clevenger said:


> No, Arlene I was making a point not stirring a pot. You do that best. The reason why it doesn't say anything about blue is because it isn't acceptable by the HCA. I also want to comment on Jan's post about it not being something she would accept if it wasn't already occuring.... If that's true then you support short hairs from being bred on purpose. Would you support a consortium of breeders working to bring them into the standard also?


You have friends who have bred shorthairs. Is the breeding intentional or is it something that happens because that pair bring them forth and do they repeat the breeding?
I think Arlene said it best and will repeat her:
<<I support the Havanese standard as it is written Jennifer. I support the HCA and it's Constitution and ByLaws as they are written Jennifer.>> 
And least anyone think Jennifer and I are at odds with each other, there is no truth to that. She and I don't see eye to eye on some things...but I don't see eye to eye with my husband all the time either and we do just fine together. Any conversation you can learn from done with respect is a good one.
My gf's husband and I are soooooo far apart in our political beliefs and many times when we get together, we talk politics and have fun doing it. My gf used to get all upset until she watched us talking several times. She was so afraid that our personal views would create a mess among us, but he and I gained knowledge from each other and found places we have common ground. The point is, we learn from each other and we speak to each other with respect. Then we go eat a steak dinner and laugh and tease and at times cry together and there isn't anything we wouldn't do for each other.


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## JASHavanese

Julie said:


> You know -----seriously------ I know you guys are all breeders and you do what you know best but I'm so happy I just am a pet owner. I have no doubt you are all wonderful,caring breeders.......lets just put this blue topic to bed,ok?:grouphug:eace::grouphug:eace:


Aw Julie, what if they would have said that about chocolates before allowing them into the standard? So far it's a fairly respectful discussion and we may learn something from it.
Cherie posted some links to read and I'm curious to know if havs have been affected by those things. There's no war....this is learning from each other. Keeping your mind open to be able to learn is a good thing. :grouphug:


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## Julie

ok-ok-I just was afraid it was getting heated. I can only speak for me, but I love learning about the different things breeders consider. Remember Jan---a year or so ago I witnessed this breed break up thing which just broke my heart. My gosh--I would just hate to see our hav breeders at odds.....No one wants that....:grouphug:

I clicked on the link given above for ahavacapiro....ok----call be stupid----but I didn't notice a blue pigmented puppy. Maybe it's the quality of the photos or my computer screen......but I'm just not seeing it.:brick:


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## JASHavanese

Julie said:


> ok-ok-I just was afraid it was getting heated. I can only speak for me, but I love learning about the different things breeders consider. Remember Jan---a year or so ago I witnessed this breed break up thing which just broke my heart. My gosh--I would just hate to see our hav breeders at odds.....No one wants that....:grouphug:
> 
> I clicked on the link given above for ahavacapiro....ok----call be stupid----but I didn't notice a blue pigmented puppy. Maybe it's the quality of the photos or my computer screen......but I'm just not seeing it.:brick:


That makes sense. I remember that time too  This is a whole lot different and we can learn from each other.
To find a true blue look for blue nose pigment and blue eye rims along with a silvery or gray coat
<----- See Lightning? He would be called a blue however he's not a true blue. They are two different things. He was born black and has black pigment. A true blue is born with the blue pigment. That was confusing to me when I came into the breed and it might be to others also. 
To further confuse things look down below at my signature picture at the dog on the far left. She looks like a blue. She was born black then went orange (oh was that ugly but can be a step to a lighter coat) then went to blue then went almost black again. She also has black pigment so she isn't a true blue. ..well, she isn't blue anymore either LOL


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## Melissa Miller

Jennifer has a point.. you can argue about minor details... but if Blues are not in the standard and people are intentionally breeding them.. then its kinda hypocritical. This discussion always ends up the same way.. haha.. meaning HSD/HCA.. 

For the record.. from what I have heard, a lot of Chocolates have health issues also. I am sure they are good dogs.. but a this point we have enough health issues. I don't see the point in doing studies to see if breeding Blues might be ok. We have enough dogs who need homes, why add to the mix with expanding an unknown line? I dont get it? And I am not stirring the pot. Lord knows I would be stirring my own pot and I have to deal with the boil over! HA!


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## tejanoHavs

JASHavanese said:


> Color Dilution Alopecia deals with hair loss and they say the cause is unknown. How many true blue havs have been documented with this?


Beats me if any blue Havs are documented with this...I doubt we have enough to "know" statistically. The study I've heard of is more of a casual reporting of any problems as far as I know. No scientists involved, no theories to prove. Just a gathering of anectdotal evidence. That's interesting and might provide a basis to go to the next step, but in and of itself it really isn't a statistically valid study.

I'm a pretty logical person though and if so many other breeds have found that a certain portion of their dilute colored dogs can develop CDA, why would we think Havanese would be immune from this problem? When searching the internet for blue dogs and health issues, in several different breeds you see breeder pages where they mention that if a buyer purchases a blue dog from them that their guarantee will exclude possible skin problems. So, the relationship between dilute coat colors and increased incidence of CDA seems to be accepted both from breeders and scientists.

I know it probably sounds crazy when pet owners hear breeders debate these things as most of us are passionate about the health of this breed:suspicious: It's important to breeders, but also important to all Hav owners because none of us want to introduce new health issues to these wonderful dogs we all love...especially not for the sake of vanity (human not dog...grin) or simply because these dogs are already "out there". If there were a compelling reason to add blue dogs to the Havanese gene pool then that might offset the natural tendency of most breeders to err on the side of caution. But I don't see that compelling reason yet. And in reading about the hair loss caused by CDA, the symptoms and diagnosis sound very much like what owners of Havs with SA (sebaceous adenitis) go through. Not a good situation for Havs or their owners as the hair loss and follicular problems can lead to inflammation and secondary bacterial infections.

You asked about the cause and the research into color dilution focuses on a mutation near or within the MLPH (melanophilin) gene. I've not read anything definitive as to why that dilution is associated with symptoms and effects of CDA or the mechanisms involved there. 
 
If you want to learn more about the MLPH gene polymorphisms, here's the abstract of research published in the Journal of Heredity just over a year ago:

J Hered. 2007;98(5):468-73. Epub 2007 May 22.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ls.org/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long&pmid=17519392 Links

*A noncoding melanophilin gene (MLPH) SNP at the splice donor of exon 1 represents a candidate causal mutation for coat color dilution in dogs.*

*Drögemüller C*, *Philipp U*, *Haase B*, *Günzel-Apel AR*, *Leeb T*.
Institute of Genetics, Vetsuisse Faculty, University of Berne, Bremgartenstrasse 109a, 3001 Berne, Switzerland.
Coat color dilution in several breeds of dog is characterized by a specific pigmentation phenotype and sometimes accompanied by hair loss and recurrent skin inflammation, the so-called color dilution alopecia or black hair follicular dysplasia. Coat color dilution (d) is inherited as a Mendelian autosomal recessive trait. In a previous study, MLPH polymorphisms showed perfect cosegregation with the dilute phenotype within breeds. However, different dilute haplotypes were found in different breeds, and no single polymorphism was identified in the coding sequence that was likely to be causative for the dilute phenotype. We resequenced the 5'-region of the canine MLPH gene and identified a strong candidate single nucleotide polymorphism within the nontranslated exon 1, which showed perfect association to the dilute phenotype in 65 dilute dogs from 7 different breeds. The A/G polymorphism is located at the last nucleotide of exon 1 and the mutant A-allele is predicted to reduce splicing efficiency 8-fold. An MLPH mRNA expression study using quantitative reverse transcriptase-polymerase chain reaction confirmed that dd animals had only about approximately 25% of the MLPH transcript compared with DD animals. These results provide preliminary evidence that the reported regulatory MLPH mutation might represent a causal mutation for coat color dilution in dogs.


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## mckennasedona

The information shared about the blues is very interesting. I enjoy the give and take among knowledgeable breeders. I am impressed by the scientific knowledge amongst you. I'm with Julie though, we can skip the "you're stirring the pot/causing trouble" posts. Those types of comments are best sent via PM or not sent at all. Education is a good thing....spiteful commments are not.
Is there truly a scientific study going on regarding the health of "blue" Havs? If so, how is it being done? It's not simply breeding them, keeping them and seeing what happens healthwise is it? Tell me they are testing these guys all over the place.


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## Me&2Girls

Susan, from the little that I've read, Lynn Nieto (sp?) is a very reputable breeder and she along with some other well respected long time breeders have had blues turn up. Together, they are health testing and will do a long term health "study" to see if there are any health concerns. I don't know what the scientific "test" design is other than a longitidudinal one (time). Lynn has Pan, one of the top stud dogs in the nation and she's always been very kind to me.


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## mckennasedona

Is there any web site or book or publicly available source that talks about possible health issues of a true chocolate Hav?


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## JASHavanese

Melissa Miller said:


> Jennifer has a point.. you can argue about minor details... but if Blues are not in the standard and people are intentionally breeding them.. then its kinda hypocritical. This discussion always ends up the same way.. haha.. meaning HSD/HCA..
> 
> For the record.. from what I have heard, a lot of Chocolates have health issues also. I am sure they are good dogs.. but a this point we have enough health issues. I don't see the point in doing studies to see if breeding Blues might be ok. We have enough dogs who need homes, why add to the mix with expanding an unknown line? I dont get it? And I am not stirring the pot. Lord knows I would be stirring my own pot and I have to deal with the boil over! HA!


If you (all breeders) have a dog that throws colors in the standard and every now and then produces a true blue, do you spay/neuter the dog? If you have a dog that breeds shorthairs along with others that go on to be champions, do you spay/neuter that dog? Hearing thoughts on that could be interesting and educating.
I heard that chocolates had a ton of health issues and also heard the way chocolate was brought into our breed was by someone breeding their hav to a chocolate toy poodle at a dog show in front of 19 people. That last theory made the rounds until pictures came out of Cuba showing chocolate havs there. 
Are there any health studies that show a chocolate has more health issues?


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## tejanoHavs

JASHavanese said:


> If you (all breeders) have a dog that throws colors in the standard and every now and then produces a true blue, do you spay/neuter the dog? If you have a dog that breeds shorthairs along with others that go on to be champions, do you spay/neuter that dog? Hearing thoughts on that could be interesting and educating.


I can't imagine anyone advocating such an approach. I do think most breeders would say that it would be troubling to take the offspring in your example with a DQ (pigment other than black or dark brown on a chocolate dog, an atypical short coat, etc.) and then show it and/or use it in one's breeding program. But to spay or neuter a dog who simply produced a DQ would be silly unless they repeatedly threw the same DQ with several different mates. An experienced breeder might choose to not repeat the same mating which produced the DQ and would instead try a different mate on future breedings to test that.



JASHavanese said:


> Are there any health studies that show a chocolate has more health issues?


LOL.....this question is one more appropriate for a breed that has been around in an organzied AKC sense of the word far longer than the Havanese. If we were Goldens, Labs, etc. then you might get a valid response to that question. There has been only one large scale health survey in our breed and that was conducted about 5 years ago. Like many health issues within our breed, at this stage anecdotal evidence is all anyone may have. Do we wish we had statistically significant evidence to use? Sure, but we don't.

I would expect that sooner or later the Havanese fancy will see another health survey conducted. It will be soooo important for everyone here on the forum to participate. Widespread participation is really critical to get an accurate picture of the health of our breed. Otherwise, you just have show folks and breeders responding and that's a skewed group (well, the humans aren't skewed...that didn't sound good...you know what I mean) :biggrin1:


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## mellowbo

Julie said:


> I clicked on the link given above for ahavacapiro....ok----call be stupid----but I didn't notice a blue pigmented puppy. Maybe it's the quality of the photos or my computer screen......but I'm just not seeing it.:brick:


Julie, I don't see any blue pigment either. The breeder says the dame is in the "blue study" and 2 of the puppies are blue?????? Maybe this isn't a "true blue".
Carole


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## hedygs

mellowbo said:


> Julie, I don't see any blue pigment either. The breeder says the dame is in the "blue study" and 2 of the puppies are blue?????? Maybe this isn't a "true blue".
> Carole


In the pictures the breeder mentions Stitch as being her "blue boy" so I guess that is one.


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## JASHavanese

tejanoHavs said:


> There has been only one large scale health survey in our breed and that was conducted about 5 years ago. Like many health issues within our breed, at this stage anecdotal evidence is all anyone may have. Do we wish we had statistically significant evidence to use? Sure, but we don't.
> 
> I would expect that sooner or later the Havanese fancy will see another health survey conducted. It will be soooo important for everyone here on the forum to participate. Widespread participation is really critical to get an accurate picture of the health of our breed. Otherwise, you just have show folks and breeders responding and that's a skewed group (well, the humans aren't skewed...that didn't sound good...you know what I mean) :biggrin1:


What did the health study show 5 years ago? It would be great to see a health survey in the future and I agree with you, widespread participation in it would be fantastic.


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## JASHavanese

mckennasedona said:


> Is there any web site or book or publicly available source that talks about possible health issues of a true chocolate Hav?


Not that I know of Susan.


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## mckennasedona

Thanks Jan. That's what I thought. It never hurts to ask though. I've heard a couple of people say the chocolates have health issues but it's usually a case of hearing it from someone who heard it from someone who perhaps based it on what they know of another breed. Not that there is anything wrong with that but just like in humans, there might be diseases specific to a race or breed that don't necessarily apply to another race or breed. I'm intereseted because I think the chocolate Havs are beautiful to look at. I'd love to have one someday.


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## tejanoHavs

JASHavanese said:


> What did the health study show 5 years ago?


Jan, the entire health survey has always been publicly available on the HCA website at:
http://www.havanese.org/documents/DataReportHCAHealthSurvey.pdf

If your question is specifically about chocolates (gee this is making me hungry!) then you can fast forward to p.24 of the survey to see that only 2% of the survey respondent data was for chocolate dogs (that would be 15 dogs out of 754). Nowhere in these results will you find any attempt to correlate coat color to health issues. Again, like I said in my previous posts just not enough dogs of certain coat colors to be statistically significant.

All the normal caveats go along with reading the health survey guys :blabla: It was a volunteer effort and anonymous so no attempt was made to verify data provided. In fact, the design was such that you could enter data on your own dog(s), a dog you produced as a breeder, a dog you "knew" of, etc. Just a very basic first attempt at gathering info on the breed (as requested by HCA members at the 2003 annual meeting) and not especially useful in terms of valid statistics. I'd have to say that the majority of health surveys have the same problems though. Many are anonymous to encourage people to actually report health issues without disclosing the name of their dog.


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## Jennifer Clevenger

That would be an interesting study... to compare coat color with health issues. I have a little experience with Chocolates. I have a choc. Lab. He is eleven years old. We have had fatty tumors develop all over him. One tumor grew so big on his spleen that he hemmoraged and needed emergency surgery. The Lab people swear the chocolates are more hyper than the other colors. My second Hav was a chocolate parti. I had to pet her out because of bowed legs. I then helped a friend get a chocolate and tan as a pet. She ended up having liver issues. I also know of another breeder whose chocolate dog ended up with a heart murmur. So, just from my experience Chocolates may be prone to the health problems more.


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## Kathy

Melissa Miller said:


> Jennifer has a point.. you can argue about minor details... but if Blues are not in the standard and people are intentionally breeding them.. then its kinda hypocritical. This discussion always ends up the same way.. haha.. meaning HSD/HCA..
> 
> For the record.. from what I have heard, a lot of Chocolates have health issues also. I am sure they are good dogs.. but a this point we have enough health issues. I don't see the point in doing studies to see if breeding Blues might be ok. We have enough dogs who need homes, why add to the mix with expanding an unknown line? I dont get it? And I am not stirring the pot. Lord knows I would be stirring my own pot and I have to deal with the boil over! HA!


Hey all,
Actually Melissa, I wanted to set one thing straight. BLUE'S are allowed in our current standard. They just must have black pigment. There have been a few shown and finished too.


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## Julie

Kathy,
They wouldn't be considered a true blue though would they? From reading Jan's post a true blue wouldn't have black pigment,right? I'm thinking much like a chocolate---where a true chocolate doesn't necessarily mean "brown fur" but brown pigment on nose/eye rims? I had the toughest time getting that understanding of chocolate from Kimberly......I think she wanted to clobber me!


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## dboudreau

Julie and anyone else who would like to learn more, Suzanne MacKay's "Rainbow of Colours" has information and pictures of Blues

http://www.mts.net/~mckay55/colours8.html


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## AgilityHav

^^ I second that source. They also have a lot of good info on color genetics...


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## JASHavanese

Julie said:


> Kathy,
> They wouldn't be considered a true blue though would they? From reading Jan's post a true blue wouldn't have black pigment,right? I'm thinking much like a chocolate---where a true chocolate doesn't necessarily mean "brown fur" but brown pigment on nose/eye rims? I had the toughest time getting that understanding of chocolate from Kimberly......I think she wanted to clobber me!


There are 2 blues and it can get confusing. There is a TRUE BLUE which has blue pigment along with a silvery blue or light gray coat. Then there's a BLUE which lightens from a black to a silver or gray color coat but retains it's original black pigment. A TRUE blue will never have black pigment.
Here's an interesting thing about a blue (not a TRUE BLUE). If something happens and hair gets pulled out, chances are it's going to come back in black and have to silver out again to match the coat. That won't happen with a TRUE blue.
A TRUE blue is a dilute. A blue has a silvering gene which changes the coat from black to silver or gray.


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## Jennifer Clevenger

JASHavanese said:


> You have friends who have bred shorthairs. Is the breeding intentional or is it something that happens because that pair bring them forth and do they repeat the breeding?
> I think Arlene said it best and will repeat her:
> <<I support the Havanese standard as it is written Jennifer. I support the HCA and it's Constitution and ByLaws as they are written Jennifer.>>
> And least anyone think Jennifer and I are at odds with each other, there is no truth to that. She and I don't see eye to eye on some things...but I don't see eye to eye with my husband all the time either and we do just fine together. Any conversation you can learn from done with respect is a good one.
> My gf's husband and I are soooooo far apart in our political beliefs and many times when we get together, we talk politics and have fun doing it. My gf used to get all upset until she watched us talking several times. She was so afraid that our personal views would create a mess among us, but he and I gained knowledge from each other and found places we have common ground. The point is, we learn from each other and we speak to each other with respect. Then we go eat a steak dinner and laugh and tease and at times cry together and there isn't anything we wouldn't do for each other.


LOL.... Jan, I feel the same way. As long as no one takes personal shots or gets nasty, why can't we disagree. We can learn things off of each other in these kinds of forums. At the time you think you have learned everything there is to know it is time to get out of whatever it is you are doing.


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## Me&2Girls

Either that Jennifer or mother nature decides to throw you a curve ball.


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## Jennifer Clevenger

Me&2Girls said:


> Either that Jennifer or mother nature decides to throw you a curve ball.


That has happened to me quite a bit in the last year! I am hoping to get a break.


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## Missy

I find this fascinating!!! As a pet owner. I have always been attracted to the bluish Havs, (I have included in that in my own mind some of the sables and brindles that have silvered too) but I never knew there possibly health issues, or that there was blue pigmentation either. This is why I love this forum. I think Cash's coat turning the Blue or silvering, but he has black pigmentation. You can see in my signature picture his snout is really turning, the rest of him just a bit. it will be interesting to watch as he changes. Thanks for letting us read all the breeder talk. I like it best when it stays civil too.


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## Julie

This is probably going to sound like a silly question to you breeders,but if you have an opinion or insight I'd love to know. I'm attracted myself to the silver coloring or the dark brindles.....and just to be sure I'm saying the coloring correctly-I mean dogs such as Posh,Stogie and Kubrick.They have gorgeous coloring...and in the reds,dogs such as Samson......how can you predict the coloring? I mean,how do you predict whether they'll keep their coloring? I know for me, I am attracted to dogs with the more "intense" coloring and sometimes it must be a little disappointing to lose all that beautiful color they originally have as pups. Is there any way to know?:ear:


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## Missy

I 2nd what Julie asks.... having been one of those who was somewhat dissappointed with Jasper's change in color at first (of course now I think he is the most beautiful dog in the world) is there any way to really tell other than seeing how their parents changed?


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## mellowbo

I third it!

Vinny is definitely turning silver!!

Carole


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## Jennifer Clevenger

Julie said:


> This is probably going to sound like a silly question to you breeders,but if you have an opinion or insight I'd love to know. I'm attracted myself to the silver coloring or the dark brindles.....and just to be sure I'm saying the coloring correctly-I mean dogs such as Posh,Stogie and Kubrick.They have gorgeous coloring...and in the reds,dogs such as Samson......how can you predict the coloring? I mean,how do you predict whether they'll keep their coloring? I know for me, I am attracted to dogs with the more "intense" coloring and sometimes it must be a little disappointing to lose all that beautiful color they originally have as pups. Is there any way to know?:ear:


The ones who keep their coloring are the brindles or the blacks who change to silver and blue. Don't miss interpret what has been said about the blues. 
The blue Havanese have a blue nose. They are the ones with the questionable health not the black or brindles who change to a blue with a black nose. It's all in the nose. The black noses are not the dilute gene, the blue noses are. I hope this helps.


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## Leeann

Jennifer I think what Julie is asking is how do breeders predict what the coloring of the pups will be when breeding. Use brindle for example, if a breeder wanted to have a litter with brindle pups what would you look for in order to achieve that? My guess is knowing your lines and what those lines usually throw.


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## mellowbo

I would also like to know how you can tell if a black and white puppy will stay black and white?
Carole


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## ama0722

Well I think it is important for someone to study it. Even if it is an informal study just talking about health issues. I don't think any dog should be bred based on color alone but what happens if you have a dog that is a blue but is a great specimen of the breed. I think it isn't so clear. And what about other breeds that are brown and blue that have no health problems?

As to color, Dash is black and white and doesnt seem to be changing but his dad and grandma are black and white too. I was hoping he would get a lil of his mom red but I guess I will just have to wrap a red boa around him 

Amanda


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## Julie

Julie said:


> This is probably going to sound like a silly question to you breeders,but if you have an opinion or insight I'd love to know. I'm attracted myself to the silver coloring or the dark brindles.....and just to be sure I'm saying the coloring correctly-I mean dogs such as Posh,Stogie and Kubrick.They have gorgeous coloring...and in the reds,dogs such as Samson......how can you predict the coloring? I mean,how do you predict whether they'll keep their coloring? I know for me, I am attracted to dogs with the more "intense" coloring and sometimes it must be a little disappointing to lose all that beautiful color they originally have as pups. Is there any way to know?:ear:


I'm actually not asking about blues or pigment colors,(I assuming black)but on coat colors and retaining coat color.


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## JASHavanese

Jennifer Clevenger said:


> That has happened to me quite a bit in the last year! I am hoping to get a break.


You could sure use one after the year you had Jennifer!! Sending good wishes to you. :hug:


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## JASHavanese

Jennifer Clevenger said:


> That would be an interesting study... to compare coat color with health issues. I have a little experience with Chocolates. I have a choc. Lab. He is eleven years old. We have had fatty tumors develop all over him. One tumor grew so big on his spleen that he hemmoraged and needed emergency surgery. The Lab people swear the chocolates are more hyper than the other colors. My second Hav was a chocolate parti. I had to pet her out because of bowed legs. I then helped a friend get a chocolate and tan as a pet. She ended up having liver issues. I also know of another breeder whose chocolate dog ended up with a heart murmur. So, just from my experience Chocolates may be prone to the health problems more.


I don't have chocolates and am not interested in breeding them however, how many black or white or parti or other color havs do you know with the same issues? I know plenty. Each breed has different issues and comparing a lab to a hav may not work. I know there's a group that's pushing that chocolates are bad but I haven't seen people with chocolates talk about any more issues than other colors.


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## JASHavanese

Kathy said:


> Hey all,
> Actually Melissa, I wanted to set one thing straight. BLUE'S are allowed in our current standard. They just must have black pigment. There have been a few shown and finished too.


With respect, there's a lot more than a few


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## JASHavanese

Jennifer Clevenger said:


> LOL.... Jan, I feel the same way. As long as no one takes personal shots or gets nasty, why can't we disagree. We can learn things off of each other in these kinds of forums. At the time you think you have learned everything there is to know it is time to get out of whatever it is you are doing.


Amen to that Jennifer! If we ever think we know it all, we might as well give up because that is a shut mind.


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## JASHavanese

Missy said:


> I find this fascinating!!! As a pet owner. I have always been attracted to the bluish Havs, (I have included in that in my own mind some of the sables and brindles that have silvered too) but I never knew there possibly health issues, or that there was blue pigmentation either. This is why I love this forum. I think Cash's coat turning the Blue or silvering, but he has black pigmentation. You can see in my signature picture his snout is really turning, the rest of him just a bit. it will be interesting to watch as he changes. Thanks for letting us read all the breeder talk. I like it best when it stays civil too.


I'm with you Missy. We can disagree but can do it with respect. Keep an open mind and we just may learn something.
I do want to clear up something. The silvering gene is pretty popular in our breed but it does not mean health problems. The health problems that have been talked about here are with the dilutes, which is a whole other ball game than a silvering gene. 
As far as the TRUE BLUES go (the ones with blue pigment, not black), there is a study and let's see what that study shows before we guess in the dark.


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## JASHavanese

Missy said:


> I 2nd what Julie asks.... having been one of those who was somewhat dissappointed with Jasper's change in color at first (of course now I think he is the most beautiful dog in the world) is there any way to really tell other than seeing how their parents changed?


If you don't know the backgrounds of the parents you're pretty much in the dark trying to figure out what their color may change to. Havs are sneaky little things when it comes to color. They can be one color one year and look different the next....and then do it all over again. That's part of what makes our breed so much fun


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## JASHavanese

Julie said:


> This is probably going to sound like a silly question to you breeders,but if you have an opinion or insight I'd love to know. I'm attracted myself to the silver coloring or the dark brindles.....and just to be sure I'm saying the coloring correctly-I mean dogs such as Posh,Stogie and Kubrick.They have gorgeous coloring...and in the reds,dogs such as Samson......how can you predict the coloring? I mean,how do you predict whether they'll keep their coloring? I know for me, I am attracted to dogs with the more "intense" coloring and sometimes it must be a little disappointing to lose all that beautiful color they originally have as pups. Is there any way to know?:ear:


Julie, look at the dogs in the pedigree. Is there a silvering gene in there? If so you may not keep your intense coloring. If you have the silvering gene on both sides, you may really be in for a shock 
I know someone who got a black and tan and wound up with a cream dog. Surprise


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## JASHavanese

mellowbo said:


> I would also like to know how you can tell if a black and white puppy will stay black and white?
> Carole


Leeann and Carole, read Suzanne's website about color. Know the dogs behind your pedigree and remember that a dog from a few generations ago might decide to get in the mix


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## Me&2Girls

Jan, wouldn't it just be easier to throw a bunch of paint together and have some of it be waterproof and some not? That way you'd know what you'd eventually end up with color wise. ound:


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## irnfit

This thread is so interesting and I think it proves even more why we need to get our Havs from good breeders. There is so much to know when putting dogs together to get the best pups.

Shelby is a black and white, black pigment and a belton. Her head has remained black, but the black on her back has silvered. At one point I thought she might be changing again, but she has gotten a little lighter again.


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## Jennifer Clevenger

Leeann said:


> Jennifer I think what Julie is asking is how do breeders predict what the coloring of the pups will be when breeding. Use brindle for example, if a breeder wanted to have a litter with brindle pups what would you look for in order to achieve that? My guess is knowing your lines and what those lines usually throw.


Yes, Leeann you got it. You have to know what kinds of colors are in the lines. Even then you can all of a sudden get one you didn't expect. Riley and Monte come from lines that throw sables,whites, creams, black and white parti's, pieds but only Riley's lines throw brindles.


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## Melissa Miller

I was talking of the ones with blue pigment. I know the black pigment ones are ok. Ill be more specific next time. 


Kathy said:


> Hey all,
> Actually Melissa, I wanted to set one thing straight. BLUE'S are allowed in our current standard. They just must have black pigment. There have been a few shown and finished too.


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## Melissa Miller

So maybe thats where this years calendar money can go. We can start the fund for the study of health issues based on color. That would be very cool.


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## Me&2Girls

What a great idea Melissa - I believe that you can also apply for a matching grant from the AKC's health foundation.


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## JASHavanese

Me&2Girls said:


> Jan, wouldn't it just be easier to throw a bunch of paint together and have some of it be waterproof and some not? That way you'd know what you'd eventually end up with color wise. ound:


LOL Lisa that just might be easier  One of the reasons I find our breed so enchanting is because of the color changes. Have you seen Suzanne's website with the really radical coat changes? http://www.mts.net/~mckay55/colours12.html It just amazes me. Suzanne has been helping me figure out what color puppies I have. They started out black with a couple of white toes. She says either silver sables or tri color classic and the ones that are going light the fastest I should expect the most dramatic color changes from. Look what 5 weeks has done to black puppies! It's too bad the camera isn't picking up the white on the sides of the face or doing a good job with the eyebrows. http://www.jashavanese.net/threeamigos4.html


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## Me&2Girls

I know I just love her web site Jan. Seriously though, other than knowing a bit about color genetics and what lines throw what colors, is there any way to stack the deck to get more brindles? That and the sables are my very, very favorites. But I'm a bit biased.


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## JASHavanese

Me&2Girls said:


> I know I just love her web site Jan. Seriously though, other than knowing a bit about color genetics and what lines throw what colors, is there any way to stack the deck to get more brindles? That and the sables are my very, very favorites. But I'm a bit biased.


I haven't studied sables Lisa so maybe a breeder who has can answer your question. As you can see, I'm having a hard enough time trying to guess the colors of my own puppies <G>
Look at what Catherine posted about an adult hav she got as a puppy from me. It was a black and white parti and she says the black is silvering out as an adult. It's enough to make my head swim at times but oh so fun to watch.


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