# How to handle an unfenced yard?



## have2havit (Oct 19, 2011)

Hi - I just joined this list and our family is hoping to adopt a Havanese. However, something that has been of deep concern is the fact that we do not have a fenced yard.

Our neighborhood allows only certain types of fences (split-rail, which will not keep any pet contained.) However we have a relatively large yard. 

Are there those of you who keep your dogs in homes w/out yards or w/out fences? How do you exercise your dog regularly? Do the Havs generally stay near the caregiver? Or if left to open space, do they run away? I know that this may vary based on the training of the dog, but I'm curious since Havs are companion dogs, if they are less likely to run away? My county's leash laws allow the dog to be off a leash if on our property. I would love for the dog to be able to run around our backyard (supervised, of course) w/out having to worry about keeping it on a leash or worse, staked.

Any input is greatly appreciated. - Sharon


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## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

we live on a lake, wide open back yard, as soon as we got our pup, he was always on a leash when we took him out to do his thing. walks in the park were his exercise. i would never leave your dog alone in an open space unattended. it only takes a second for something to catch their eye and their gone. they are companion animals but they are still dogs. 

about 4 years ago we fenced in an area next to the house, this allows us to let him out to walk around and do his thing without a leash however, he's never outside by himself. i'm always concerned the gate might be accidentaly left open by the landscapers, etc. etc.

i do know people who leave their dogs off leash in their yards but their dogs are extremely well trained. i always worry about my dog getting away so perhaps i am overly cautious.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Be careful, yes they are companion dogs and mine is at my side most of the time, however, if he sees a bunny, squirrel or cat, all bets off she is chasing them down. I would probably keep the pup leashed, I'm not sure how I feel about electronic fences, but I would probably consider it if I thought it would keep her safe and alive.

Kara


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Yes, a Havanese can be taught to stay with you and not wander off, and yes, Havanese are probably easier in this department than, say, a sight hound who is a bit independent anyway, and pre-programmed to run and hunt. BUT it takes serious, long-term training, even with a Havanese, to get there. It does NOT happen over night. You need to establish a REALLY reliable recall, and reinforce this regularly through out the life of the dog. You can't get lazy or complacent about it. No puppy is likely to have a really reliable recall until AFTER they have gone trough adolescence and their "testing" period. Which means I wouldn't take a chance on the recall on a dog younger than about 18 months if there are any dangers around. (big dogs, streets with traffic, etc.)

If you have not taught a reliable recall before, it is REALLY important to get a good, positive based trainer to help you with this, if for nothing else. It is SO easy to spoil the recall during the puppy's first few months. It actually happens more often than not, and people often have to re-teach a proper recall with a new word if they haven't had good help establishing it from the start.

Some of the basics (but this is FAR from an exhaustive list!) for establishing a good recall are:

* Do not even UTTER your planned recall word (typically, "come!", but it doesn't matter what the word is) until the recall itself is close to 90% reliable in controled situations over short distances.

* In the training stage, never, EVER call the dog to you when you want to do something they won't like, such as putting them on a leash, giving them medicine, grooming, bathing, etc. Instead, YOU go and get THEM. (control the situation so they cannot escape until they are better trained)

* Lots and LOTS of high-value rewards during the training process. EVERY time to begin with, fading VERY slowly over time in controlled situations. In uncontrolled situations, you want to have treats with you probably for YEARS, and reward the dog for returning to you more than 50% of the time. 

* A great way to start this training (the kids can do it) is to sit at both ends of a long, narrow hall with a pile of treats. Call the puppy back and forth, using his name, and NO call command. When he goes to the first person, they give a treat, praise and pats, then the other person calls. Soon he will be RACING up and down the hall for the sheer joy of the game. When this is reliable in the hall, move to more open areas of the house. Any time he is not doing well, return to the hall for a few days.

* When you move to trying it outdoors, start just a leash-length apart, so one of you can always grab him. When he's good at that short distance, graduate to a "long line" (basically a long leash). With a long line on, over time, you can "proof" his recall, since it's unlikely that he will be able to stay far enough away from you that you can't step on the end of the line and reel him back in. Again, if he's not successful, return to a lower phase for quite a while before challenging him with more freedom again.

* Another good way to build intensity on the recall is to do the "two person" thing with "collar grabs". In this case, the dog goes to the first person, and that person grabs the dog's collar THEN gives a treat. WHILE that person is still holding the dog's collar, the other person calls them. The person holding the dog holds on just long enough for the dog to strain (lightly) against the collar before letting go. (you can use a harness if you prefer) Dogs have an instinct to pull INTO a collar or harness, so this increases their intensity to run to the other person. (just as you see dogs straining against their owners' leashes to try to get to another dog) This makes the game even more fun and exciting for the dog, and you WANT him to think that coming when you call is the BEST thing in the world!

* NEVER, EVER, chase your dog if he is loose and won't come when you call him. This turns it into a game you can NEVER win. Instead, in a light, happy voice say something like, "Let's play!!!" and run in the other direction. Most puppies will chase YOU and catch up. When they do, make a HUGE big deal about it and give them a jack pot of high-value treats.

* EVEN if your dog get out onto a busy street, resist the urge to chase them. You CAN'T catch them. Instead, try calling their name ONCE and walking in the other direction. More often than not, they will follow. If not, follow them quietly usually, eventually, some interesting smell will attract their attention and you can use this distraction to catch up and take charge again.

Again, this is NOT comprehensive program for training the recall... it's more a list of things you can do to avoid RUINING the recall before you get help teaching it right.

Oh, and yes, it is COMPLETELY possible to have a Havanese who is reliable off-leash. Kodi is usually off leash on our un-fenced 5 acre property, but NEVER unattended. The only time we do keep him on leash is "potty time". He knows if he's on leash, it's not fiddle around time, but business time... get it over so we can get on to other things!:biggrin1:

Kodi is also completely reliable off leash in the woods. He likes to range ahead of us or behind, but our rule is that he can't get out of sight. If he gets to a bend where I won't be able to see him if he continues, I say, "Kodi, far enough!" and he knows to wait for us to close the gap. (this took a LONG time to teach!!!) Even at 2 1/2, I practice regular recalls in the woods, calling him back to me, giving him a treat (they no longer need to be high value) and telling him how good he is, then releasing him to run again.

One caveat to being off-leash in the woods. When Kodi was small, he had the guidance AND protection of an older, very well trained GSD. I didn't have to worry about either wild animals or bigger dogs hurting him because Buddy was there to protect him, even if he wasn't right by my side. Likewise, if we called Buddy back, Kodi came too. They are still inseparable to this day. Now Kodi is a large Hav (16 1/2 lbs) and I feel pretty comfortable as long as he's within my sight. He will (even if I don't call him) come back to me if he sees a larger dog, and he's pretty safe from hawks and small predators. (though while we were in Nova Scotia, where they are having a big problem with aggressive coyotes, we kept him on a 6' leash, as recommended at all times) If I had a SMALL Hav, I'd think twice about letting them run loose in the woods unless they had a large dog companion/protector. Too many hawks in our area. 

I would NEVER use an "invisible fence" for a small dog. IMO, they are the worst of all worlds. They cause ALL dogs to run the "safe line, challenging dogs on the street... perhaps causing a fight the small dog can't possibly win. It also keeps the small dog IN without keeping any predators or large dogs OUT. IMO, if you don't have a fully, securely, fenced yard, the ONLY safe way to manage a small dog is to be outside supervising them EVERY time the go out the door, either on a leash or with an established, reliable recall.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

In my experience, Rosie is as realiable as a lab puppy--not very. I never had another dog that would run off and not come back except for the lab puppy until I got Rosie. Her favorite game was catch me if you can and believe me you can't catch one. She is 2 and 1/2 now and still won't come when I first call her unless the cat comes first. When she was tiny, I took her outside at the office for potty breaks without a leash. She decided to RLH and luckily another woman from the library next door saw her and managed to catch her. From that day forward, she has never set foot on an unfenced yard without a leash on.


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## mrootes (Oct 17, 2011)

I'm going to get crucified for this, but here goes: We have both Havanese on the Invisible Fence. 

They have been on the fence for a year and a half and have not once left our yard - even when they want to "play" with a dog being walked on the sidewalk.

I think Krandall's thoughts are ideal - however, the training process for a family of five with two dogs just wasn't working. The dogs were trained on the fence in 3 days. COMPLETELY trained in about 10. Best thing we ever did.


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## Ricolove (Aug 28, 2011)

Rico was a runner too, we never let him off leash outside, but he pulled away from my stepmother once, and that was it, he was gone, so be careful either way, but especially if you decided to train him to be off leash outside


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

No crucifixation from me. The lab I mentioned could climb over the solid wood fence. We had the electric wire in the ground in front of the fence. He just would leap over that, so we put it on top of the fence. Didn't take but about 4 times (one for each side of the yard) for her to figure out that she couldn't climb the fence any more. Some would say cruel, I am for safety.


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

We don't have a fenced yard either. Augie is taken out to potty on leash. (Finn still uses UgoDog) I bought six black ex-pens and we put them around an oval-shaped area of lawn in the yard. Also got some black metal posts and placed them at intervals around that area to attach the ex-pens to for stability. So far, it has worked great. Have no clue how those ex-pens are going to hold up - time will tell. It is not a huge area but gives the boys quite a bit of room for getting their ya-ya's out. We do not let the boys out alone. When they are in their 'area', I have yard chores close by to keep me occupied or I sit in a chair in their area with them. One day this summer, as we were walking to their area, a hawk flew down not too far away from us. Scared me. Have never seen that happen before. I am thinking he was checking them out?? Finn was a lot smaller then. I am getting more comfortable now in taking Augie out with me while I am doing chores in the unfenced portion of the yard, and not having him run off. But he is nearly three and I still watch him closely. I wish we had a huge area for them to run loose in. I still remember the sheer joy on Augie's face when he decided to do a RLH at Rally class in the huge barn where we take classes. And then he did it again at agility class in the even larger field where we train in the summer. At this point in my life, I am not sure I want acreage, but seeing how he loved it so, kinda makes me wish we had some.


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## shimpli (Mar 24, 2010)

krandall said:


> Yes, a Havanese can be taught to stay with you and not wander off, and yes, Havanese are probably easier in this department than, say, a sight hound who is a bit independent anyway, and pre-programmed to run and hunt. BUT it takes serious, long-term training, even with a Havanese, to get there. It does NOT happen over night. You need to establish a REALLY reliable recall, and reinforce this regularly through out the life of the dog. You can't get lazy or complacent about it. No puppy is likely to have a really reliable recall until AFTER they have gone trough adolescence and their "testing" period. Which means I wouldn't take a chance on the recall on a dog younger than about 18 months if there are any dangers around. (big dogs, streets with traffic, etc.)
> 
> If you have not taught a reliable recall before, it is REALLY important to get a good, positive based trainer to help you with this, if for nothing else. It is SO easy to spoil the recall during the puppy's first few months. It actually happens more often than not, and people often have to re-teach a proper recall with a new word if they haven't had good help establishing it from the start.
> 
> ...


THANKS for this. I am scared to death that Ache will run away if the door is open for 1 minute. I will start this right away.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mrootes said:


> I'm going to get crucified for this, but here goes: We have both Havanese on the Invisible Fence.
> 
> They have been on the fence for a year and a half and have not once left our yard - even when they want to "play" with a dog being walked on the sidewalk.
> 
> I think Krandall's thoughts are ideal - however, the training process for a family of five with two dogs just wasn't working. The dogs were trained on the fence in 3 days. COMPLETELY trained in about 10. Best thing we ever did.


It's not that you can't train little dogs to an electric fence. That's the easy part! The problem is that it does NOTHING to protect THEM from larger dogs or wild predators. In our area, we have lots of coyotes, and their favorite prey is cats and small dogs. All an electric fence does is guarantee that the little dog has even LESS chance to get away. If you want to use an electric fence to keep a small dog from running into the street, fine. But if you care about keeping them safe, you need to be out there with them, supervising them even though they are inside the fence.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Luciledodd said:


> No crucifixation from me. The lab I mentioned could climb over the solid wood fence. We had the electric wire in the ground in front of the fence. He just would leap over that, so we put it on top of the fence. Didn't take but about 4 times (one for each side of the yard) for her to figure out that she couldn't climb the fence any more. Some would say cruel, I am for safety.


An electric fence used in combination with a solid fence is a great solution. It keeps the dog home, AND (in the case of little ones) keeps them safe from predators and larger dogs.


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## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

we thought about the electric fence years ago but just like you said it doesn't keep the wild animals from coming into our yard. we coyotees, hawks, deer, etc. no way, too scary. i still go out with a flashlight at night when he has to go out, even though it's fenced in i am terrified of the possibility of something jumping into his fenced in area!


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

*Exercise ideas for those without fenced yards*

In addition to Karen's excellent advice, here are some tips for those w/o fenced in yards. We have a fenced yard, but it is too small for a good RLH!

In the past,I have trained dogs on the long leash that Karen discussed, but haven't mastered it with the Havs.

if I want one of my dogs to have lots of free running around, I take them (one at a time) to a large field or park on the very long. lightweight lead, I think it is 50 feet. I let the dog run around like crazy and keep calling her back for a treat. She never goes too far, and if she did, I could just step on the leash to stop her/him. Dog gets great exercise and can't really get away from me.It's safe.

Another thing that we do, is to go to the tennis courts in the neighborhood, when they are not in use. DH goes to one corner and I'm at the other. We let the dogs off-leash and let them run like crazy and play games where they run from him to me for a treat and vice versa. It's lots of fun and they get exhausted. (A tired dog is a happy dog) We can exercise all 3 at once this way. We do the same on the basketball court if the tennis courts are busy but it is a smaller area. Of course we are responsible dog owners and always clean up if they Poop there. They don't usually do anything because we walk them first.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

YES! we take Tillie to the tennis courts too!!! excellent place for them to RLH and be safe AND work on recall!


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## mrootes (Oct 17, 2011)

These are great points about the electric fence. 

While the fence keeps our dogs IN, it cannot create a physical barrier from outside things coming INTO the yard. We also have coyotes, owls, hawks, etc, so the rule is that our little guys are way too precious to be "let out" without being watched. 

Our front door always seems to be left open in the summer (^&%[email protected]!) and I am so at peace knowing that our guys are not going to bolt out and leave the yard. They still get out, but knowing they can;t leave the yard, it just isn't the same for them!

By the way,be careful with your little one at ALL times - it's not just BIG things that can come into the yard and harm them, but little things too. We have been visited by raccoons and possum too. 

An electric fence is the best choice we ever made to keep our guys from wandering away. But it's not a substitute for watching them and still working on teaching them commands. Do what it takes to keep your little one safe!


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Amen to that. Even though we have a solid wood fence, I still go out with Rosie. I sit out on nice days and let her play. I treat her just like the grandchildren at that age--never leave her out of my sight. If I don't go out, I raise one of the kitchen windows and watch. I would do the same with the electric fence.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Don't know one trainer that would recommend a electric fence. For these reasons. If you can't have a fence, you'll have to exercise some way else. 
Electric Fences

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a783707194~db=all

http://www.hollysden.com/say-no-to-shock-collars.htm#Invisible_Fencing_Systems

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/05.30/01-fear.html - 4th paragraph is especially telling

http://www.positivedogs.com/articles/electronic_fencing.html

http://www.positivedogs.com/articles/lisag.html


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## mrootes (Oct 17, 2011)

By the way, another reason I got the electric fence - I have three daughters...

'nuf said? :thumb:


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## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

I just wanted to mention that if you do want a physical fence, could you do a split rail with chicken wire? That is what we have. It is great. It is actually in our breeder's contract that we can not have an electric fence. I have seen too many dogs run right through them and then not go home because they don't want to get shocked again (both neighbors dogs do this often and come to my house to play with my dogs). Also, my Brady would be traumatized for like if he got shocked. He is the most sensitive dog in the world. I suspect he would never want to go outside again.

When we first got Brady, we didn't have a fence. We walked him a lot and we took him to the dog park to run and play.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mrootes said:


> These are great points about the electric fence.
> 
> While the fence keeps our dogs IN, it cannot create a physical barrier from outside things coming INTO the yard. We also have coyotes, owls, hawks, etc, so the rule is that our little guys are way too precious to be "let out" without being watched.
> 
> ...


And this will only work with a Hav kept in a fairly short clip, because if you are using it as a deterrent to leaving the property if they accidentally get out, you need to keep the collars on them all the time. Most of us with full coated Havs only put collars on when we take them somewhere.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

littlebuddy said:


> we thought about the electric fence years ago but just like you said it doesn't keep the wild animals from coming into our yard. we coyotees, hawks, deer, etc. no way, too scary. i still go out with a flashlight at night when he has to go out, even though it's fenced in i am terrified of the possibility of something jumping into his fenced in area!


We have big spot lights on our property for when we go out at night. But right now they are not connected, because we are in the middle of a HUGE renovation/addition. So I'm out there with my flashlight every night too. I'm not SO concerned about raccoons or possums... I think I could chase them away if they tried to bother Kodi. What _I_ don't want to deal with is an encounter with a skunk!!!ound:


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## mrootes (Oct 17, 2011)

krandall - excellant point. Our Havs are kept short since they have very curly hair. My understanding is that more typical Havs get matted quite badly if they are in collars very long - is this true?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mrootes said:


> krandall - excellant point. Our Havs are kept short since they have very curly hair. My understanding is that more typical Havs get matted quite badly if they are in collars very long - is this true?


I don't think it has anything to do with whether they have a curly coat or not... It has to do with whether they have been cut into a short puppy cut or not. Dogs with longer coats tend to mat under collars and harnesses.


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## hutsonshouse (Oct 14, 2010)

we have about a acre and when I first got Gibbs & Probie they were already older, about 18 months, I always walked them on a leash. Then I graduated to the long leads while we worked on our recall. Then I only took them out one at a time and took off the leash for a short moment and held my breathe I did not think I would ever get to the point of letting them out without the leash - I ALWAYS go out with them no matter what though, because you can't recall if you are not there! I now can let them both out to do their business and they have a good game of chase with each other as well, but seem to like running in a circle as much as anything, so they don't go too far! I still will interrupt them for a recall just to help remind them who is in charge out there. Now my hubby on the other hand is all about the treats He lets them out and basically bribes them back with their treats, which I recently told him needed to stop since Gibbs is getting a little thick. My moms walks them on the days I am at work, and she would NEVER just let them out, and always takes them on the leash. Plus they have been trained NOT to go out the door until asked to go out. So running out when the door is cracked is not an issue, thankfully.


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