# Health Testing



## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

Question: When you get your dog Cerf and BAER tested, and all the rest, does it cost money to post them on the OFA sites?


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Yes. Each test is different, but it lists it on the bottom of the OFA application (that the tester needs to use). The fee is a little different for some of the tests, but it isn't much. And the fee does change so make sure you use a new form each time and send it in. I think one of my results hasn't posted because I held onto the test results for too long and the fee changed several months ago.

OFA applications are available here.

As of today, the hip (only) database fee is $30, the elbow (only) database is $25, hips & elbows together are $35. The patellar luxation (knees) database fee is $15.

You need to get the BAER (hearing) and CERF (eyes) from the examiner, but I believe those fees were close to $15 also.


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## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

Hmm, that isn't very expensive at all.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

No, you're right. The submission fees for the database aren't bad at all. The cost is pretty high when you have multiple dogs, and pay for the testing, and then add all the submission fees. The good thing is that you can often find inexpensive clinics at local dog shows for the BAER & CERF tests. For the patellas, my vet does it. For the hips, I have to travel a couple hours away to get it done.


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## JodiM (Dec 28, 2006)

Is it a one time fee, or an annual fee?


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

It is a one-time fee for each test submitted. However, the CERF test should be done annually, so you have to submit the fee each time you submit the test results.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

If I am not showing or breeding my dogs, do I have to post the results of their tests? Or can I just keep the results for my records and piece of mind that my dogs helath is OK?


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Does your breeder have any requirements about the testing in your contract?

There are two benefits to posting the results - to fullfill any requirements of your contract, and to help others who research health pedigrees. If there are five puppies in a litter and none of them ever post the reports, no one knows if the whole litter had eye problems... or maybe none did. Posting the results does help others. 

Does that make sense?


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

Kimberly is right. Check your contract. 

Our dog (which we should get in March) has to have a CERF annually starting at its first birthday per our contract.

I agree it is a good thing. It allows you to check up on bloodlines. I was able to go in and check out other dogs that I knew came from the breeder besides the parents.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

There was nothing specific in the contract, but I see your point about posting. Good idea. Thanks


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## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

Would there ever be a reason not to post the results?


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I can't think of any reason to not post results, except if you found something wrong and didn't want anyone to know. However, I think that would be more likely by a breeder than an owner. I don't know anyone who has kept from posting results, but that's the only reason that comes to mind. For the betterment of the breed, I think it is a much better idea to post them no matter the results.


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## DrDale (Jan 13, 2007)

*Testing Results*

Well there are plenty of reasons not to send in your results to OFA or any other registry. Just as I can't release medical records, good or bad many breeders don't feel it's anyone else's bussiness. I have many clients that do all the testing but just don't send them, maybe 75% . Other clients have 10 - 15 dogs and the cost does add up. While some breeders doctor shop for passed results. When I see a new client that wants testing for OFA, it kind of makes you wonder.
If you look at the stats on other breeds you would think they should never be bred. Bulldogs, Staffy's and others have failed hips over 25% and yet it ok to breed them. 
Testing is a snapshot in time, the dog is fine at that exact moment. The best testing you can do is on your own dog and have regular vet checks.
DrD


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

DrDale said:


> Well there are plenty of reasons not to send in your results to OFA or any other registry.


So, what are those reasons?

In response to people who doctor results, I think that would be pretty obvious over time.

Secondly, why would you wonder why someone wants to do testing for OFA? That doesn't make any sense to me. Breeders are encouraged to do testing by their national club. It is the breeders who don't do any testing that should be questioned.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Dr. Dale,
I also wanted to comment on the cost portion for those that have multiple dogs. If a person has 10-15 dogs, then they better be darned well ready to handle the expenses that come with that. And since you claim to be familiar with OFA, I'm sure you know that they give price breaks for large numbers of reports sent in.

I'm still a bit stuck on the doctoring part. The vet that visit for my OFA hip testing is several hours away from me, but worth the drive (even though there are thousands of veteranarians closer in the San Francisco Bay Area). He does the testing and has me give him my OFA check for the submission because they do not give the tests back to me. They submit them directly to OFA themselves. If you are concerned about "doctored" results, that could be a practice you could implement.


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## DrDale (Jan 13, 2007)

Those are all well in good but I was just trying to answer her question on why some breeders don't send in results. I was not suggesting not to test only why. 
Still, if we had to have test before having our children and put our test results for all to see, how many people would protest. Just a thought.

DrD (retired)


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## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

No one buys our children. We purchase a pet and expect to have one that has no history of disease. In a purebred there are diseases the run in some lines. A responsible breeder does testing. To compare pet health testing to testing of humans before 'breeding' is rediculous.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

> Those are all well in good but I was just trying to answer her question on why some breeders don't send in results.


 I must have missed it, but I still haven't seen any reasons posted for a breeder to not have the test results posted.

And the comparison of posting health testing results for our children is apples & oranges. We don't "breed" our children.

Dr. Dale, something is starting to smell fishy in here and it isn't my tuna.


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## DrDale (Jan 13, 2007)

I was just giving a thought hoping you might understand. I wasn't not expecting anyone to reply so mean. If you don't get the answer you wanted why ask?


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## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

Let's hear from other breeders on the forum, then. How many of you post your health results? Dr. Dale says 75% of his clients don't post their results. Can this be true? How can I trust any breeders to sell me a pup that is healthy, then? Would I be better off just going to the pound?

I wanted a purebreed because I love the breed. I thought that breeders bred to protect the breed and to watch for diseases and temperate. That includes posting of test results, I would think.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Wow, now I am curious too. I asked my breeder about testing and she told me that all her dogs are tested and if something is detected they are immediately spayed/neutered and not used in any of her lines. Now, I do believe Dr. D that you did bring up something very concerning to us. We love our Havs and with all the research put into looking for a reputable breeder, in your experience why have some opted to not post results? Did they still used those dogs in breeding lines? Dr. D, I am not trying to be distrespectful in any way, I guess something so near and dear to our hearts is what fires up the questions. I really need to ease my mind of doubt. IF anyone could answer please do.


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## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

Dr D says that they first saw a Havanese this holiday season, so I don't think that he/she is talking about Havanese, right? Isn't that what you posted earlier, Dr Dale?

Just OFA testing in general you don't believe in?


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

sorry to sound silly but OFA stands for what? I know about the BAER and CERF, and I have heard about OFA but sorry for my ignorance.


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## JodiM (Dec 28, 2006)

OFA= Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

I'm not sure about Hav's, as I'm still new to this breed.. but my Golden's had to go through this because Hip Dyslpasia is *very* common in that breed. 

I can not imagine ANY breeder that is worth a grain of salt, not wanting the test results reported. That to me would be a huge red flag against that breeder.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

OFA is the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals. It is an open database of health testing that proves health testing has been done on an animal - and shows the results of each test. You can research the relatives (parents, siblings, etc.) of your Havanese to see if they have done the recommended testing before breeding their dogs, and you can see if the CERFs are current.

Dr. Dale - My last response wasn't meant to be mean. I am just doubting you are truly a licenced veterinarian - current or retired. Please explain why you would "wonder" why someone wanted OFA testing done. That doesn't make sense to me at all.


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## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

So an unsuspecting dog buyer such as myself cannot check that the mother of her pup had not been health tested, that's why.


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## JodiM (Dec 28, 2006)

I also wanted to add in that ANY breeder for ANY breed should be researched basically the same way. You should never buy a dog from someone who doesn't care about the parents and their needs.. and are only trying to make money, which so many are


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## JodiM (Dec 28, 2006)

jolynn said:


> So an unsuspecting dog buyer such as myself cannot check that the mother of her pup had not been health tested, that's why.


Joanne, a lot of people don't know to research and ask for health testing, unfortunately.

If everyone would ask for it, and VERIFY the results, instead of just taking the breeder's word, then the puppy mills would probably cease to exist.

AKC also needs stricter regulations for people wanting to breed. They should make health testing on the parents mandatory, and all tests should be done with their DNA to verify it's them.
They should also require ALL dogs that are bred to have DNA testing done, to prove it's the dog in question and that the puppies did in fact come from THAT dog.

They also need somewhere that people can file complaints against a breeder, and the complaints can be viewed PUBLICLY, that way people can check up on their breeders.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Thank you for the clarification. I agree it is VERY important to know the heatlh history behind the pup's lineage. If a breeder won't or evades the question, that is a RED flag for me. What is disheartening is the issue of opting NOT to post results when dogs, of any breed, are being used in breeding. Getting a new puppy or dog, is not only an investtment of money, but also an investment of time, emotion and energy, so as buyers we should have some kind of peace of mind if we have done all the research necessary. That's just my 2 cents


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

I have to put my two cents in. No I don't think anyone is trying to be disrespectful to Dr. D but for those of us who have been on this forum (even a short time)- it has been drilled in our head to ask for tests. This includes OFA.

A matter of fact, the Havanese Club notes to look for a breeder who does these tests. Yes, it may be a snap shot in time - but it is valuable. And as far as not breeding some dogs----------responsible breeding and testing go hand in hand. Legitimate breeders with breeds that have health problems try to address the issue. For instance, (good) breeders of the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel are now mandated to wait until the dog is 5 years old and free from mitral valve before breeding. That will help breed out the problem so that 50% of that breed will not get mitral valve at 5 years old. That is why testing is needed!!!!!!!!!

And as far as cost, that is why they say that you can pay anywhere from $1,800 to over $2,200 for a Havanese or many purebreeds because of the cost associated with testing.

I don't even think we will get any response from good breeders on our forum to respond to this because they have already beat into our heads about testing, testing, testing................ They-Tom, Joan, etc. should be proud. They taught us well to ask questions about health. They don't have to join in this chat. They can sit back and pat themselves on the back.


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

That is so true I agree with you Rita!TEST TEST. And people need to be aware that just because they claim they have been tested ask for proof.And there is alot of breeders who charge the higher prices from 2-3 thousand with out test I have found this out on my own.And if you want to use the dog for show or not they will still charge you more just because they " let you reg. them to AKC even though AKC says people can not do this . I have learn so much from this site.I am joining the Southern calif havanese club I have 2 sponsers that are on the board and I am hoping to learn so much more they are great people so that is my 2 cents LOL


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## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

Susan:
You are so right!! I found this out the hard way. Just because they say they test and register does not mean they do. Get proof!!!!f Ask questions!! Then maybe you won't have a bad experience.

Wish I would have found this forum first. But now I know when I get Skiver a little playmate!


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

joanne, It is so sad I wish every one was just honest but they are not.I am a very honest person and to me its not hard to do at all its second nature.As they say treat others how you want to be treated and I fallow that rule completly.My husbands sayd some times Im to honest LOL rather be to honest than not enough like some of these so call breeders.But at least you have this wonderful site to go to now I sure hope the little on pulls threw it great and fast.I know I would go to the end of the world and back for yoda as he would for me I bleave in treating people and all fur animals good give them the best you can . Good luck hone IM here if you want to talk Susan


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## DrDale (Jan 13, 2007)

Hi Kimberly,
Don't get me wrong, I am for testing but research is much better than a database of testing. If you would take a moment to visit PennHIP and read about Canine Hip Dysplasia (CHD) and their findings are very disappointing even through selective breeding strategies. If research had just a small amount of the monies spent on testing since 1937 we might have made some progress. If you look at other breeds parent clubs and what they are doing to find cures through research you just might be surprised. 
You will find in any of my post that I never attack anyone personally but try to offer a different view point. When I read some reply's that are really good but than loose all validity when you attack personally. Forums are a place for learning form others with different opinions and ideas. As I was writing I did come across HEART which is doing research on eyes, now this is just wonderful.
DrD


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

DrDale,
I am confused who is attacking someone personally? I have been on this site for a while now, and I just don't see that.


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

Lyn no body is attacking any body really reread the other post LOL I know it can get confusing LOL Susan


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## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

"Methinks he doth protest too much"


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

DrDale,
What type of medicine to you practice?


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## DrDale (Jan 13, 2007)

As I mentioned before I am a retired Vet. I specialized in Oncology. My last 10 years has been in research reviewing data in cancer research. I must confuse I do get frustrated in the amount of funding for testing that could have gone to research. If just 10% of the monies spent on testing went to research there might have been some progress. Did you get a chance to read the data on the PennHIP site? It is very interesting reading on what testing has provided. 
DrD


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## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

Dr Dale:
Testing doesn't 'cure' disease, but it helps breeders know that a genetic disease exists in a certain dog, and with that knowledge, a responsible breeder does not breed that dog. That is the benefit of testing your dogs.
As a vet, you should know that.

What kind of research? You aren't talking about studies done on animals are you??


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## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

*retired?*

I guess I misunderstood your first post then. You said:

"I had my first Havanese in our office over the holidays and just fell in love with the pup. What a wonderful breed. I have had my practice for well over 30 years and never seen a breed like that little Havanese, he just stole everyones heart."

But now you say you are retired, and anyway, the last 10 years you were in research? But you have a practice?

Sounds like you keep changing what you're telling us to try to get some credibility. Sorry if that sounded like a personal attack, BTW. JMHO.


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

Joanne,

I just have to say that whenever you start a thread, it is an adventure. I am glad I am along for the ride. I think this one may have opened up a can of worms or should I say, a can of tuna. LOL


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

Joanna, 
Skiver's new picture is cute, he looks bigger. Hope he is doing better today. I must agree with Rita, Something seems fishy here.


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## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

I just calls 'em likes I smells 'em


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