# Incessant Barking



## SnickersDad (Apr 9, 2010)

Hi all --
Long story (and I'll try to keep it short). Snickers is - so far - pretty much an ideal pet. I work with her every day on all kinds of training and exercising - walks - Frisbee - etc. She rarely barks - and that's the way I want to keep it.

Lynda's mom suffers from Alzheimers and is in a local care home. The home has a total of 4 patients and 2 care givers -- AND a Yorkie that barks and barks and barks. The patients all want us to bring Snickers over to 'play' with Bella the Yorkie - which we do occasionally - however I'm starting to resist. Everyone is 'so impressed' with Snickers good behavior and loves seeing her do her 'tricks'. 

They want me to 'train Bella' to stop barking. I have NO idea how to do that. Now I have read the thread about bark off, but that really doesn't help me much -- sounds like perhaps the spray bottle is the answer? There is no way I want Bella in my home - I don't need Snicks to pick up any more bad habits than she already has, but I also want to feel good about bringing her over to the care home so the folks there can love her up (which they really do!).

Ideas on barking just for barking's sake? - Remember, I'm a newbie at this dog training stuff.

Cheers!

Jim and Lynda and our P&P machine.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

SnickersDad said:


> Hi all --
> Long story (and I'll try to keep it short). Snickers is - so far - pretty much an ideal pet. I work with her every day on all kinds of training and exercising - walks - Frisbee - etc. She rarely barks - and that's the way I want to keep it.
> 
> Lynda's mom suffers from Alzheimers and is in a local care home. The home has a total of 4 patients and 2 care givers -- AND a Yorkie that barks and barks and barks. The patients all want us to bring Snickers over to 'play' with Bella the Yorkie - which we do occasionally - however I'm starting to resist. Everyone is 'so impressed' with Snickers good behavior and loves seeing her do her 'tricks'.
> ...


First you have to figure out why the dog is barking. If they are barking to warn of new people coming in and out, sometimes it's as easy as just acknowledging that you know someone's there. For Kodi, when he barks to tell us someone is at the door, we say, "Thanks, Kodi, I've got it." and he pipes right down.

With a lot of little dogs, though, it's demand barking. The "cute little dog" has learned that they can get attention (any kind will do, even if it's negative attention) that way. This is something that can't be cured quickly, and EVERYONE who has contact with the dog has to be on the same page. You can't have some people doing it, and some people caving. I think that might be very hard in her current setting.

The idea is, every time she barks, (beyond a quick bark to let someone know she needs something, or someone is at the door) she needs to be picked up WITH NO WORDS and placed in her crate. Or she could be locked in a bathroom or something; the idea is for her to learn that barking gets her NOTHING that she wants, and she loses her privilege to be with the people she loves. She has to stay there until she is quiet, and then you let her out, QUIETLY telling her what a good girl she is, and saying the word. (like "good quiet!")

The trouble is, this is NOT a quick fix. It has to be done consistently, and it can take quite a long time to become a habit. I'm not sure it's something you can do by yourself, or in just a few hours a week while you are visiting. And you are right not to bring her into your own home for training, because from what I've seen, NOTHING teaches a dog to bark faster than another barking dog. They seem to feed off each other.


----------



## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

" And you are right not to bring her into your own home for training, because from what I've seen, NOTHING teaches a dog to bark faster than another barking dog. They seem to feed off each other."

AMEN!


----------



## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

Ditto Karen and Carole. Evye taught the other 2 very well.


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Great advice Karen. This dog needs help, you probably won't be able to do it in that setting . Everyone there has to be trained. Forget the spray bottle. Whose dog is this.? I have seen resident cats in homes but not a dog.


----------



## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Pet Agree works. It is a little blue box that emits an ultrasonic sound when you push it. When the dog is barking you hit the button and use a command word like "quiet" It is not a positive training tool rather a negative one. But I have to say it worked in two tries for the boys to teach them "leave it." But Cash became very fearful for a few days after using it, so we do not use it anymore in the house, once in a while we use it with Jasper alone on walks to get reinforce "leave it" for cars. Do a search on here for "Pet Agree" and you will see what others have said. It works, but should be used with caution. My own rule was only use it when all else has failed for dangerous behaviors like attacking moving vehicles. But if this is a situation where it would make the lives of everyone living in the home more pleasant, it may be worth a try. But I would not do it with Snickers there if She has no problems.


----------



## SnickersDad (Apr 9, 2010)

davetgabby said:


> Great advice Karen. This dog needs help, you probably won't be able to do it in that setting . Everyone there has to be trained. Forget the spray bottle. Whose dog is this.? I have seen resident cats in homes but not a dog.


Dave -
The owner of the Dog is also the owner of the house. The owner is a RN, as well as a business woman (as in owner of these care homes - She owns 4 of them in the area). A very nice lady, very caring and giving, but is not enough of a 'pet owner' to actually participate in the dogs training and conditioning - That work is left to the care givers and the patients - None of whom are really equipped to handle the needs of this animal. That is not to say that the patients and the caregivers are helpless here -- far from it. This is not a nursing home. All patients are ambulatory, can feed themselves, use the restroom, communicate (well my MIL isn't so good at that anymore) etc. etc. AND the caregivers aren't any more overworked than a normal family's parent's would be.

I agree - in a family as diverse as this one is it may be very difficult to get them all on the same page.......

Cheers!


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Yeah I agree. this dog sounds like he is training everyone. Not the best circumstances.


----------



## FancyNancy (Oct 7, 2009)

This was recommended by our trainer: when the dog is barking (or doing some other unwanted behavior) that cannot be stopped by other means, just pick the dog up by the scruff of the neck and give him a good shake - saying NO BARK. Then leave the dog alone - dont act like anything weird has happened. No "it's ok" and comforting and all that. Just go about life as usual. This sounds harsh but apparently, it is what the mom dog does to discipline her pups and it is understood by dogs as a discipline. I tried it only 2 times with Henry. Both behaviors (chasing cars and excessive barking) stopped completely after the "shake" and he loves me as much as ever. Good luck to you.


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

FancyNancy said:


> This was recommended by our trainer: when the dog is barking (or doing some other unwanted behavior) that cannot be stopped by other means, just pick the dog up by the scruff of the neck and give him a good shake - saying NO BARK. Then leave the dog alone - dont act like anything weird has happened. No "it's ok" and comforting and all that. Just go about life as usual. This sounds harsh but apparently, it is what the mom dog does to discipline her pups and it is understood by dogs as a discipline. I tried it only 2 times with Henry. Both behaviors (chasing cars and excessive barking) stopped completely after the "shake" and he loves me as much as ever. Good luck to you.


Hi Nancy , I do not recommend this approach for a myriad of reasons. Two of the least important are , 1. your dog probably doesn't know what No Bark means and 2. Mother dogs don't do this to their pups and neither do wolves.


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi again Nancy , just a short article from Fun4Fido...

Take alpha rolls. The early researchers thought that the higher-ranking wolf forcibly rolled subordinate wolves to exert his dominance. Modern studies have shown that alpha rolls are part of an appeasement ritual offered voluntarily by the subordinate wolf, not forced by the superior.

A subordinate wolf offers his muzzle, and when the higher-ranking wolf “pins” it, the subordinate rolls over and presents his belly. There is no force. Canine behaviorist Jean Donaldson, author of the award-winning book The Culture Clash, says, “The truth is, there is not one documented case of a wolf forcefully rolling another wolf to the ground. Nor is there one case of a mother wolf (or dog) ‘scruff-shaking’ her puppies.” A wolf would flip another wolf against its will only if he were planning to kill it. The same goes for a mother shaking her pup by the scruff. Both are rare events.

The third flaw was that the researchers made some wild extrapolations from their data. Their first leap of logic was applying their conclusions to dogs. Their second was applying them to human-canine interactions.

Dogs Are Not Watered Down Wolves

The fact is, dogs aren’t wolves. Wolves are dogs’ closest relatives - just as chimpanzees are ours - but dogs became a separate species possibly as long as 135,000 years ago. Although dogs retain some characteristics of wolves and other canids, thousands of years of domestication, co-evolution with humans, and selective breeding have changed them profoundly.

Dunbar once said, “Saying ‘I want to interact with my dog better, so I’ll learn from the wolves’ makes about as much sense as saying ‘I want to improve my parenting - let’s see how the chimps do it.”


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Just to show how scary this alpha roll /scruff shaking idea can be. Here is a letter to our IPDTA forum that was received today. 

"Yesterday, I went to the park behind my residence where my dog can
chase balls. Two twin children came over to play with my dog and I let
them. But the female child was insistent in turning my dog over on its
back. She tried it about 5 times even when both me and her baby sitter
told her not to grab the dog like that. Wow! Can't believe a 3 year
old (found out the age from the baby sitter) would insist on an alpha
roll."


----------



## FancyNancy (Oct 7, 2009)

All I know is that I have a happy, wonderful little pooch who is perfectly socialized and extremely well behaved. When I tell him to come he comes - when I tell him to sit he sits. If he is in the middle of chasing a squirrel and I say SIT - he sits immediately. He shows no aggression to humans or other dogs. He barks until I say NO BARK and then he stops. He heels perfectly on the leash. I have none of the problems other people on here talk about with behavior. My dog knows I am in charge and he loves, trusts, and respects me. I am able to keep him safe (and myself sane) because I have some control over his behavior. Granted, I think he was born being a great dog and all I have done is not screw him up, but the two times I did the scruff shake quickly and completely eliminated some very dangerous behavior without any side effects that I (or anyone else) can detect.


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Glad to hear you have a great dog Nancy. I'm just saying this scruff shaking is not recommended . Some dogs might brush it off. Others can be affected negatively with it. It can erode the dogs trust in their owner. Hitting a dog with a stick will also stop an unwanted behaviour. But probably only temporarily. There are much better ways.


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Here is part of an article by Angelica Steinker on this topic

Most of us have heard the terms alpha roll and scruff shake. Here are the facts. There is absolutely no scientific evidence that alpha rolls or scruff shakes are useful dog training techniques. There is evidence that positive punishment (the scientific term for what alpha rolls and scruff shakes are meant to achieve) damages your bond with your dog and may cause stress or even aggression. The originally observed alpha roll was actually a submissive wolf offering his or her belly rather than being forcibly bowled over. Unfortunately for dogs, the alpha roll became popular world-wide and to this day misguided humans alpha roll dogs thinking they are showing their dominance. In reality, alpha rolls and scruff shakes frighten dogs and may cause some to become aggressive and bite. Gradually it became known in professional dog training circles that alpha rolls were not effective dog training. Yet many trainers cling to the disproved methods either unable or unwilling to adjust their behavior. Now that you have read this article you can educate them!

Scruff shakes are used by wolves and dogs to communicate or to kill prey. Tactile communication of wolves is an area relatively unexplored by research so it is unknown what exactly a wolf may be communicating when she grabs her pups by the scruff and gives them a light shake. Other scruff grabbing and shaking behaviors are very easy to understand as they are intended to break the neck of the prey so that they can be consumed. If you grab the scruff of your dog’s neck and shake her, you run the risk of scaring her and she might bite you.

According to dog training historian Glenn Martyn, the origin of the scruff shake and alpha roll appears to be from dog training literature in both Northern American and English dog training books of the 1930-1950’s. That was a long time ago, it’s time to get updated!


----------



## FancyNancy (Oct 7, 2009)

Ok OK OK. I agree that what I did might have scared and hurt a more timid or already damaged dog. I wouldn't have done it if my dog had trust or fear issues. But he does not. I guess it worked because he happens to be a very sturdy little guy emotionally and just has the kind of never-say-die, terminally sunny and optimistic personality that could handle a shake.


----------



## sprorchid (Mar 30, 2010)

outline the better way please.


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

sprorchid said:


> outline the better way please.


I have an excellent article on barking. It is too long to post here. Email me privately at this address and I will send it to you. [email protected]


----------



## pixie's mom (Dec 27, 2009)

My golden ret., Katie never barks (unless we get the Shuttle sound barrier noise) and Pixie, my 2yr. Hav. barked alittle if she saw a crane, duck etc. outside on our deck. BUT my 9mo old Daisy has always been "vocal" at people coming in/out, at the door, etc. She seems to get the other two going now. I tried the Pet Agree and it scared Pixie so much she seemed to hide everytime. It's hard to use it on just on pet when they are right next to each other. I don't use it ever now. There was an article in our paper a few weeks ago that when somebody comes in you tell your dog to sit and then give them a treat. Sounds like rewarding bad behavior. DAVE what do you think about the putting in another room/crate. I would love your article. My email is [email protected]


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

pixie's mom said:


> My golden ret., Katie never barks (unless we get the Shuttle sound barrier noise) and Pixie, my 2yr. Hav. barked alittle if she saw a crane, duck etc. outside on our deck. BUT my 9mo old Daisy has always been "vocal" at people coming in/out, at the door, etc. She seems to get the other two going now. I tried the Pet Agree and it scared Pixie so much she seemed to hide everytime. It's hard to use it on just on pet when they are right next to each other. I don't use it ever now. There was an article in our paper a few weeks ago that when somebody comes in you tell your dog to sit and then give them a treat. Sounds like rewarding bad behavior. DAVE what do you think about the putting in another room/crate. I would love your article. My email is [email protected]


Hi Susan, yeah these devices can scare dogs easily. And the worse thing is that they can generalize this device with people coming to the door. Giving the treat for the sit ,is rewarding the sit not the behaviour before that. Give the treat for a quiet sit. Removing from the area can be used for certain times. That's what is called negative punishment. But it would be better to train Daisy to greet properly, thus helping out with the others as well. Here is an article on door greeting training , hope the link works; you might have to scroll , but look for pages 103-109 . I will send you the other article privately. 
http://books.google.ca/books?id=_NA...&resnum=1&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false


----------

