# Question on color change



## Dee Dee

Sophie's breeder said if Sophie were to silver out, it should start on her lower sides first. I really want her to keep her color and not silver out. (I think it's pretty but for photos I really wanted a dark dog). She doesn't have any silvering at all on her back or sides. But she does have a fairly big patch on the back of each hind leg, between tail and hock, a patch behind each ear and some in each armpit. 

She will be 7 months old tomorrow. Does it sound like she may silver out after all (she is Havanah Brown, not black) or can they have these silver patches that don't get bigger and stay dark?


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## whimsy

I think will be a surprise with the coat color of a Havanese. I have seen pictures on this forum where the puppy color was so drastically different from the adult coat color that you would swear it wasn't the same dog! LOL I think any color is pretty in photos though:biggrin1 you're a good photographer)


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## krandall

Dee Dee said:


> Sophie's breeder said if Sophie were to silver out, it should start on her lower sides first. I really want her to keep her color and not silver out. (I think it's pretty but for photos I really wanted a dark dog). She doesn't have any silvering at all on her back or sides. But she does have a fairly big patch on the back of each hind leg, between tail and hock, a patch behind each ear and some in each armpit.
> 
> She will be 7 months old tomorrow. Does it sound like she may silver out after all (she is Havanah Brown, not black) or can they have these silver patches that don't get bigger and stay dark?


So far, I haven't seen a single young dog that someone has told me was "Havana Brown" that didn't end up being a silver. I'm not saying there aren't some, but I haven't seen it. 

They absolutely don't all start silvering on the back or sides... Pixel's sister, Elke, had silver spectacles at 6 weeks. She will probably be a pretty light silver, possibly the result of two copies of the silver gene. Others have only a bit of silver, from one copy of the gene. These sometimes get lighter and darker through life. The Kings have a lovely girl named Nike like that.

I suspect that Pixel and her other sister, Birdy, are going to be like that too. Both have started silvering on the tail. Pixel's body color is a "rusty" black (which often precedes silvering) while her tail is very silver, and she has just a few white hairs starting around her muzzle.

My guess is that if Sophie is mostly black now, even if she silvers, she'll still look black in photos. With the dark silvers,it's really hard to capture it in photographs... Which is part of why people sometimes don't even recognize it in photos of dogs.

In the last photo on this page, you can JUST see the amount of silver Nike has... and sometimes she looks darker!: http://www.starbornhavanese.com/Nikepage.html


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## Sheri

My goodness, but that Nike is a beauty.

DeeDee, my Tucker was black and white as a baby, started silver spectacles as a young pup, and gradually the black became varying shades of charcoal.


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## 31818

Dee Dee said:


> (she is Havanah Brown, not black)





krandall said:


> So far, I haven't seen a single young dog that someone has told me was "Havana Brown" that didn't end up being a silver. I'm not saying there aren't some, but I haven't seen it.


Dis is bery inneressing! I am 19 months old. I always thought that I was a Black and White Parti color. But as mi adult coat grows in, the black has a slightly reddish brown tint in the sun. Mi white patches are still snow white an they haven't changed in size or location. I am about 2/3 "black."

Am I one of dos Havana Brown doggies, sorta like black coffi color? It doesn't change anything for mi, I jus wanna know.

besos to eberyone, Ricky Ricardo


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## MarinaGirl

Ricky - sun damage can make black fur turn reddish so that may be what's going on since you live in sunny California and Mexico. Chris Christensen makes a shampoo called Black on Black that can help.


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## 31818

MarinaGirl said:


> Ricky - sun damage can make black fur turn reddish so that may be what's going on since you live in sunny California and Mexico. Chris Christensen makes a shampoo called Black on Black that can help.


Ay, Ay, Ay, I'm being eaten alive by de sun! :flame: Gracias tia Marina Girl. I spend only, maybes, one hour a day outside in de sun when I go on walkies with mi Popi because we have bobcats that roam the neighborhood looking for a "snack" and I don get two go outside bi miself unless Popi is with mi. Do yu tink dat one hour could cause sun damage?

besos, Ricky Ricardo


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## Heather's

Sheri said:


> My goodness, but that Nike is a beauty.
> 
> DeeDee, my Tucker was black and white as a baby, started silver spectacles as a young pup, and gradually the black became varying shades of charcoal.


Tucker has a beautiful coat. When the coat silvers does it turn charcoal, grey or white? Truffles was a dark chocolate puppy with white paws and white feathering on her chest. She had a couple white hairs on her back. Eventually she developed more white on her back and it continued to spread. I am not sure if that is called silvering? Her coat is still brown with equal part of white. I noticed her coat was changing at about eight months old.


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## Dee Dee

Interesting the different paths your pups that changed color have taken. 

Nike is gorgeous! I wouldn't mind at all if Sophie ended up like that. I love the light dogs too but for photos I really prefer to work with a dark dog for exposure reasons. Of course if Sophie does lighten it will be fine but if I could choose I would love her to stay dark. 

Since other dogs color changes have started elsewhere, I am wondering if the breeder was talking about his line of dogs typical coloring pattern starting on the sides. These are sure colorful little characters! 

I wondered if Sophie's coat was turning browner this summer due to the sun but where she has turned reddest is underneath between her back little leggies.


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## gelbergirl

Here's a thread with many many before/after photos
http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=28570&highlight=color+change


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## Dee Dee

That's a great link, thank you!


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## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Ay, Ay, Ay, I'm being eaten alive by de sun! :flame: Gracias tia Marina Girl. I spend only, maybes, one hour a day outside in de sun when I go on walkies with mi Popi because we have bobcats that roam the neighborhood looking for a "snack" and I don get two go outside bi miself unless Popi is with mi. Do yu tink dat one hour could cause sun damage?
> 
> besos, Ricky Ricardo


Whether it's sun damage or not, a lot of black dogs get reddish highlights.... Many black show poodles get dyed because of this "problem". We just take our Havanese as they come!


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## Dee Dee

I love the red highlights on the black


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## 31818

krandall said:


> Many black show poodles get dyed because of this "problem". We just take our Havanese as they come!


 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, tia Karen, I don wanna be died and go two rainbow bridge! I don wanna be a poodle :Cry: Mi Momi, an eberybody else says that I have the prettiest coat they have eber seen. :biggrin1: I am glad you like mi jus the way I am! :whoo:

besos tia Karen, Ricky Ricardo


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## krandall

Heather Glen said:


> Tucker has a beautiful coat. When the coat silvers does it turn charcoal, grey or white? Truffles was a dark chocolate puppy with white paws and white feathering on her chest. She had a couple white hairs on her back. Eventually she developed more white on her back and it continued to spread. I am not sure if that is called silvering? Her coat is still brown with equal part of white. I noticed her coat was changing at about eight months old.


The silver gene causes white hairs to mix in with darker hair. How many white hairs there are will determine how light or dark the coat will look.


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## krandall

Dee Dee said:


> I love the red highlights on the black


They are all oretty in different ways! 

Here is Pixel and Birdy's sister, Elke. She is CLEARLY much more silver than her sisters at 6 months!


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## Dee Dee

Wow she sure is silvering! They are like a lipizzaner. Very pretty.

Ricky where did you get that cute little puppy icon for your birthday ticker that looks so much like you. I didn't see that one on the tickerfactory page.


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## Molly120213

Check out pitapata.com. It is another site for birthday tickers.


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## Lisa T.

Wow! What color was Pixel's sister when she was born?


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## 31818

Dee Dee said:


> Ricky where did you get that cute little puppy icon for your birthday ticker that looks so much like you. I didn't see that one on the tickerfactory page.


Its dare. You jus have to sniff around a little bit, tia Dee Dee.

besos, Ricky Ricardo


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## krandall

Lisa T. said:


> Wow! What color was Pixel's sister when she was born?


She was black, just like Pixel and Birdy. Here are the three of them at about 6 days I THINK the first one is Pixel, the second one is Elke and the third Birdy (there was also a sable boy, but he was obviously sable at birth, so I didn't include him here) At this stage, they were just three black puppies with some misc. white bits. :


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## krandall

Then, here are Pixel and Elke at 8 weeks. By then, Elke was CLEARLY silvering, while Pixel really had no silvering... not even the silver she now has in her tail :


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## Lisa T.

They are beautiful!


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## boomana

As I'm combing out my 4 1/2-month deep chocolate puppy, I'm noticing about an inch of hair that is lighter, starting to grow through, but it's very dark again at the roots. Her face and ears have lightened to a red as has her tail right near her bum. I'm fascinated by the changes. Her dad's a red and her mom's a chocolate parti, with the chocolate still a dark reddish brown.


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## krandall

boomana said:


> As I'm combing out my 4 1/2-month deep chocolate puppy, I'm noticing about an inch of hair that is lighter, starting to grow through, but it's very dark again at the roots. Her face and ears have lightened to a red as has her tail right near her bum. I'm fascinated by the changes. Her dad's a red and her mom's a chocolate parti, with the chocolate still a dark reddish brown.


Well, she could be red-ISH, but she'll never be a red, because chocolates have brown pigment and reds have black pigment. It IS fun to see how hey change color, though!


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## Dee Dee

It's amazing how much this breed changes and how hard it is to predict sometimes. I am used to dogs who are born one color and stay that way. It will be fun to see how everyones young dogs change over time. They are all beautiful. 

Very apparent between Pixel and Elke! Dang Pixel is cute.


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## littlebuddy

Django is black and white. His dad was the same color as a puppy but as an adult was grey and white. Django who is almost 12 is just now starting to turn a light shade of black on the back end, white hairs are sprouting here in there in the sea of black. I guess you never know.


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## krandall

Dee Dee said:


> It's amazing how much this breed changes and how hard it is to predict sometimes. I am used to dogs who are born one color and stay that way. It will be fun to see how everyones young dogs change over time. They are all beautiful.
> 
> Very apparent between Pixel and Elke! Dang Pixel is cute.


Thanks! She uses it for all it's worth, too!


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## boomana

krandall said:


> Well, she could be red-ISH, but she'll never be a red, because chocolates have brown pigment and reds have black pigment. It IS fun to see how hey change color, though!


I'm not in the know on these things, but here's a pic of dad:

http://www.havanesegallery.hu/show_dog_en.php?id=37016



I do think Lola will be more brown, but I sure don't know. Her face and ears have already changed to a light reddish color. She's at day care/groomer right now. Hoping to try out her first top knot. 

Lola at 11 weeks and at 19 weeks


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## Heather's

What a cutie pie!


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## Sheri

Lola's dad is a beautiful color.


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## AbrilsMama

I have a question. Abril is said to be chocolate Parti. I understand the chocolate change and she is now 5 and I see no chocolate color. But what is the Parti part? The Sire is Chocolate with white Markings and the Dam Chocolate Parti.


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## Lisa T.

I have the same question., but for an Iris Pied . I know the chocolate color can get a lot lighter, but does the white color on an Irish pied change or does the white stay white?


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## boomana

From http://www.kandlkidz.com/Colors and Markings.html



> PARTI-COLOR - Coat is over 50% white, broken with irregular patches or spots of a second color. These patches may be any other color.
> 
> EXTREME Parti - Lightly marked dogs with less than 10% color are called extreme Parti. An example might be a white dog with one or both ears partly colored and no colored patches on the body.
> 
> IRISH PIED: Two color coat with over 50% of the coat being any color other than white. With specific coat pattern as follows; The underbelly and lower legs at least up to the elbows, and tail tip are white. There is also white on the chest up to the bottom of the chin, and a full or partial white collar or shawl around the neck. There may be a colored mask on the face. The coloring on the back appears as a large saddle or cape covering the shoulders, back and sides. The topline is colored while the underline is always white.


I don't know about the white changing. I've never heard of it doing so.


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## Molly120213

Molly is a black and white parti color. She has the Belton gene and her white areas are getting black spots in them. The same thing can happen in chocolate dogs only the spots would be brown.


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## krandall

boomana said:


> I'm not in the know on these things, but here's a pic of dad:
> 
> http://www.havanesegallery.hu/show_dog_en.php?id=37016
> 
> 
> 
> I do think Lola will be more brown, but I sure don't know. Her face and ears have already changed to a light reddish color. She's at day care/groomer right now. Hoping to try out her first top knot.
> 
> Lola at 11 weeks and at 19 weeks


Well, the question on the dad would be, is he genetically chocolate (can be tested for) or is he a red with pigment that has faded? (which is something that breeders TRY to breed away from, but can be hard in reds. Often reds that are bred e to e will either have poor pigment from the beginning (in which case they can not be shown) or will develop black pigment as a young dog, be shown and finished then, but, over time, the pigment (especially the nose) will lighten again.

In this case, if it's a nice dog in all other ways, the breeder might very well breed it back to a black or dark red sable (that typically doesn't have the problem with fading pigment) in hopes of getting the nice red color but better pigment in the next generation.

In the case of your pup's sire, since that is a show photo, and a red dog would be disqualified with a light nose, I think we can safely bet that he is genetically chocolate, and just has an unusual, very pretty, very reddish brown coat.

But your puppy is clearly a chocolate, not a red, so he will be SOME shade of chocolate, and should have some shade of brown/chocolate colored pigment. He may also have slightly lighter eye color than Havanese with black pigment. That is fine with chocolates.


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## krandall

AbrilsMama said:


> I have a question. Abril is said to be chocolate Parti. I understand the chocolate change and she is now 5 and I see no chocolate color. But what is the Parti part? The Sire is Chocolate with white Markings and the Dam Chocolate Parti.


"parti" just means that the dog is "white and some other color" There is typically more white than color in this pattern.


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## krandall

Lisa T. said:


> I have the same question., but for an Iris Pied . I know the chocolate color can get a lot lighter, but does the white color on an Irish pied change or does the white stay white?


"Irish Pied" is markings that we would normally think of in a border collie. Mostly a solid color, with white on the legs, tail tip, face and often a "collar".

The white on an Irish Pied will stay white... unless the dog has the Belton gene also, in which case, flecks of the color will start to show up in the white parts as the dog matures. How much "ticking" there is will vary greatly from dog to dog.


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## krandall

boomana said:


> From http://www.kandlkidz.com/Colors and Markings.html
> 
> I don't know about the white changing. I've never heard of it doing so.


Oops! didn't see that you'd already posted.


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## Molly120213

This is Molly's boyfriend, Harley. He started out dark chocolate as a puppy but you can see how he has silvered, as well as having areas of reddish brown in his coat.


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## 31818

boomana said:


> PARTI-COLOR - Coat is over 50% white, broken with irregular patches or spots of a second color. These patches may be any other color.





krandall said:


> "parti" just means that the dog is "white and some other color" There is typically more white than color in this pattern.


I thought I am Black and White Parti, but I am 60/70% black and 40/30% white. What does that make mi, still Parti?



Molly120213 said:


> This is Molly's boyfriend, Harley.


I am crushed! I thought Molly would be true to mi! :frusty:


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## Molly120213

Oh Ricky! Molly does have a big crush on you. She thinks you are sooo cute and she loves your accent. Alas, it could only be a long distance relationship with you.


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## Heather's

krandall said:


> Well, the question on the dad would be, is he genetically chocolate (can be tested for) or is he a red with pigment that has faded? (which is something that breeders TRY to breed away from, but can be hard in reds. Often reds that are bred e to e will either have poor pigment from the beginning (in which case they can not be shown) or will develop black pigment as a young dog, be shown and finished then, but, over time, the pigment (especially the nose) will lighten again.
> 
> In this case, if it's a nice dog in all other ways, the breeder might very well breed it back to a black or dark red sable (that typically doesn't have the problem with fading pigment) in hopes of getting the nice red color but better pigment in the next generation.
> 
> In the case of your pup's sire, since that is a show photo, and a red dog would be disqualified with a light nose, I think we can safely bet that he is genetically chocolate, and just has an unusual, very pretty, very reddish brown coat.
> 
> But your puppy is clearly a chocolate, not a red, so he will be SOME shade of chocolate, and should have some shade of brown/chocolate colored pigment. He may also have slightly lighter eye color than Havanese with black pigment. That is fine with chocolates.


Lola's sire is registered as a red chocolate. I checked awhile ago when first saw his picture. I was curious to see if Truffles was related. She has the same profile. He is a beautiful boy!


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## AbrilsMama

Thank you both for explaining and that does make sense...Abril's color is on her hind quarters and ears..looks like she is wearing shorts and ear muffs...lol.


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## krandall

Molly120213 said:


> This is Molly's boyfriend, Harley. He started out dark chocolate as a puppy but you can see how he has silvered, as well as having areas of reddish brown in his coat.


This actually looks like typical chocolate sable to me, rather than silver.


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## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I thought I am Black and White Parti, but I am 60/70% black and 40/30% white. What does that make mi, still Parti?
> 
> I am crushed! I thought Molly would be true to mi! :frusty:


It's not exact... I think Ricky looks closer to a parti than he does to an Irish Pied!

Kodi is in the other direction. He's not EXACTLY an "extreme parti", but he's close, with just a black head and one black spot on his back.


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## krandall

Heather Glen said:


> Lola's sire is registered as a red chocolate. I checked awhile ago when first saw his picture. I was curious to see if Truffles was related. She has the same profile. He is a beautiful boy!


The AKC only has certain color definitions that a breeder can choose from... some of which they KNOW aren't correct from a genetic standpoint, but there aren't any "really" correct choices... Like I don't think you can register a Havanese as a brindle, but there ARE brindles, and I know you can't register a dog as Havana Brown.

...And Pixel was registered as black, because she WAS black when she was registered... Even though it is now clear that she is actually silver.


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## 31818

Molly120213 said:


> Oh Ricky! Molly does have a big crush on you.


eace: I feel lots more better now! :biggrin1:


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## 31818

krandall said:


> Kodi is in the other direction. He's not EXACTLY an "extreme parti", but he's close, with just a black head and one black spot on his back.


Whatever mi amigo Kodi is, he is my hero and role model! :wave:

su amigo, Ricky Ricardo


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## Lisa T.

Karen,

How old is Pixel? Do you have a current picture of her?


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## Lisa T.

Karen,

How old is Pixel? Do you have a current picture of her?


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