# At what age can you tell coat type?



## maximom (Mar 26, 2014)

I was curious, for more cottony havanese, at what age could you tell it had that coat type? Also, if one parent has a silky coat and the other a cottony coat, what type of coat would the offspring have?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

maximom said:


> I was curious, for more cottony havanese, at what age could you tell it had that coat type? Also, if one parent has a silky coat and the other a cottony coat, what type of coat would the offspring have?


I'm not sure about "cottony" vs. "silky", because a cottony coat is not a correct coat for a Havanese. If you mean a "big"coat, with a dense undercoat, yes, I think you can tell those puppies from those with lighter, silking coats with less undercoat fairly early. My preference, for me, is for those with more manageable, silkier, lighter coats. They are NOT the ones that are necessarily preferred for the show ring, especially for those who want to finish their dogs as puppies. Two of my dogs come from a breeder who values the kind of coat that I prefer, so I was sure I would get the coats I liked from those lines. My third dog was not "planned", but I knew her sire well, and loved his coat. I could tell when she was a small puppy that she had less coat than her very fluffy littermates, and she, indeed, inheritted her sire's lighter coat. (And many of his other attributes as well)

Many of the puppies that I see that grow up to have very heavy undercoats and "big" coats are the unbelievably adorable, "fluffy teddy bear" Havanese puppies. Panda looked pretty scruffy in comparison! LOL! The photos below are Panda as an adult, the day she she won her championship, the dayI brought her home, I think she was 10 weeks, and the last was at 7 weeks, and she was hardly even fluffy! LOL!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Kodi has more coat than Panda, with more undercoat, but still a very silky coat. He was also less “fluffy” as a little puppy than the heavy coated puppies I’ve seen. For my tastes, his coat is just about perfect. It is full enough to be beautiful, but still easy to maintain.

The first photo was his full adult coat, which I maintained until after he was 10 years old. When I cut him down, it was because I got ill, not because his coat became a problem. The other photos were him as a puppy. Again, you can see he had a lighter coat than many Havanese puppies as a very young puppy. So you CAN see this early-on.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Okay @krandall you just educated me! I have always had these questions about coat but didn't know how to ask them. Ricky's coat is very similar to Panda, more so than Kodi's. Your photos clearly show a difference. Ricky's coat has always been an easier to maintain silky coat. I never knew about the distinction between heavy coat and silky coat. Although type of coat would never be a principal factor for me to select a Havanese, I do think that we do prefer the silky coat.

I think the OP is talking about a "curly coat" Havanese when she says "cottony." Where does curly coat fit in?

Ricky's Popi


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Okay @krandall you just educated me! I have always had these questions about coat but didn't know how to ask them. Ricky's coat is very similar to Panda, more so than Kodi's. Your photos clearly show a difference. Ricky's coat has always been an easier to maintain silky coat. I never knew about the distinction between heavy coat and silky coat. Although type of coat would never be a principal factor for me to select a Havanese, I do think that we do prefer the silky coat.
> 
> I think the OP is talking about a "curly coat" Havanese when she says "cottony." Where does curly coat fit in?
> 
> Ricky's Popi


I doubt she's talking about a true curly coat. Those are mostly gone from the breed, except for old dogs or very poor breeders, because it is super easy to remove from bloodlines with simple dna testing, and most breeders have done that. A true curly coat (curly gene from both parents) looks like a poodle coat. It really CAN'T be left long. Even their facial hair is curly. To show the dog, the dogs were either flat ironed or corded to get them through the show ring, then put in a short puppy cut as soon as they were finished.

In my early days on the forum, there were a very few curly Havanese on the group (which was much larger then) but they were adult dogs. Even then, though, breeders were working to remove the curly gene from their lines. I remember the Kings had a BEAUTIFUL older red sable puppy bitch when I picked up Kodi, and they were, sadly, placing her because she had one copy ouf the curly gene, and they had made the decision to remove that gene from all of their lines. So that was 11 years ago.

A "cottony" coat would be more like the coat of a Coton de Tulear. It is a long coat, but it FEELS more like cotton wool than like silk. It's more puffy and less shiny. ...and tends to mat more even as an adult. And it is not correct in a Havanese any more than a curly coat is. BTW, it is ABSOLUTELY correct for a Havanese coat to have a wave to it. You never see this in the show ring, because it goes away when the dog is freshly washed and blow dried, which is how Havanese are presented in the show ring. I'm sure I have photos of Kodi's coat (and possibly Panda's) showing this. I'll try to find some.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

OK, I found some photos of Kodi when he hasn't been freshly blown out where you can see the pretty wave to his coat. This is absolutely correct for a Havanese coat, and has nothing to do with the curly gene. (which he and his parents do not carry) This lovely wave comes back even one day after he has been bathed, but is even more obvious if he has been in humid conditions.


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## maximom (Mar 26, 2014)

Yes I meant the silky vs rough coat, wasn’t really sure how to describe it. I prefer the silky coat. I think it feels nicer, looks nicer, and is easier to maintain. 
Does anyone know if a silky coated mother was bred with a rougher coated stud, would the offspring be more likely to have silky or rough coats?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Also, I thought you might be interested to see how different the coats of two closely related dogs can be. Here is Panda and her littermate/half brother. (the litter was dual sired, so they share a dam but have different sires) Mynas was only a year old in this photo, and Panda is a fully adult 4 year old in her photo. Now, granted, he is a dog and she is a bitch, and that DOES make a difference. But he's just got a LOT more undercoat, as did his sire. It was also a lot more work to maintain, and he is now in a puppy cut. (and was as soon as he finished) 

Oh, and BOTH are "correct" Havanese coats.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

maximom said:


> Yes I meant the silky vs rough coat, wasn't really sure how to describe it. I prefer the silky coat. I think it feels nicer, looks nicer, and is easier to maintain.
> Does anyone know if a silky coated mother was bred with a rougher coated stud, would the offspring be more likely to have silky or rough coats?


I think some coats have more of the wire-y hairs than others, but I'm not completely sure they change the maintenance. I don't know how predictable they are genetically. Mine has a very dense coat, particularly through his "mane." He has a section almost down his spine where wire-y hairs are sprinkled throughout, but most of it is silky. Below that, he has very soft hair, which is not especially common. He is very, very soft and fluffy overall, but it's the softest hair that mats.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Karen, it is so interesting to see what you mean about Kodi and Panda’s coats as puppies. I really don’t think I could have seen the difference a year ago, though. The only place my puppy’s coat was even remotely like Panda’s silky, dainty chest was on his tummy! My Havanese has a neck like a puff-ball teddy bear, but he’s pretty adorable. 

He also is super soft and silky, but I remember wondering if he was “cottony” because I imagined that to mean “puff ball.” But a Havanese can still have a silky, wavy coat and it sort of looks like a puff ball because it’s so densely packed together there’s hardly any room for it to lay down. I know because that’s how mine is, lol! Now I understand cottony to be a different texture. 

I think a lot of breeders have been able to breed away from the heavy coats, and I think it’s reasonable to let the breeder know you are hoping for a puppy with a lighter coat.


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## maximom (Mar 26, 2014)

Kodi and Panda are such beautiful pups. Out of curiosity, would this Havanese be considered curly?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

maximom said:


> Yes I meant the silky vs rough coat, wasn't really sure how to describe it. I prefer the silky coat. I think it feels nicer, looks nicer, and is easier to maintain.
> Does anyone know if a silky coated mother was bred with a rougher coated stud, would the offspring be more likely to have silky or rough coats?


There is really no way of knowing, though I wonder why someone would CHOOSE a rough-coated stud dog. That isn't a proper Havanese coat either.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I think some coats have more of the wire-y hairs than others, but I'm not completely sure they change the maintenance. I don't know how predictable they are genetically. Mine has a very dense coat, particularly through his "mane." He has a section almost down his spine where wire-y hairs are sprinkled throughout, but most of it is silky. Below that, he has very soft hair, which is not especially common. He is very, very soft and fluffy overall, but it's the softest hair that mats.


Wirey hair can happen, of course... A lot of faults can happen. But you would HOPE that people wouldn't be breeding such dog. (even though, OF COURSE, it does not affect the dog's quality as a pet in the least!!!)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Karen, it is so interesting to see what you mean about Kodi and Panda's coats as puppies. I really don't think I could have seen the difference a year ago, though. The only place my puppy's coat was even remotely like Panda's silky, dainty chest was on his tummy! My Havanese has a neck like a puff-ball teddy bear, but he's pretty adorable.
> 
> He also is super soft and silky, but I remember wondering if he was "cottony" because I imagined that to mean "puff ball." But a Havanese can still have a silky, wavy coat and it sort of looks like a puff ball because it's so densely packed together there's hardly any room for it to lay down. I know because that's how mine is, lol! Now I understand cottony to be a different texture.
> 
> I think a lot of breeders have been able to breed away from the heavy coats, and I think it's reasonable to let the breeder know you are hoping for a puppy with a lighter coat.


And to be clear, a lot of people who were SPECIFICALLY looking for a show puppy, would probably shy away from a puppy like Panda, with a "slow coat" (slow to mature). Those "bigger" coats definitely catch the eye more. I decided not to "special" Panda, because I don't think she would show well against the "specials" who almost ALWAYS have MUCH more coat than she does.

Every now and then, you come across a judge who really values structure and movement, and can look past the lighter coat. And the day Panda finished, that is the kind of judge we had. It was a BIG class, and as she came into the ring, gaiting beautifully, the judge never took his eyes off her. He gave her the 5 point major to finish, and as we went over with him to have her photo taken, He made a comment about the fact that what she lacked in coat she more than made up for in structure and movement. And that's what I love about her too.

And as a "pet mom", I LOVE that her light coat is easy to care for!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

maximom said:


> Kodi and Panda are such beautiful pups. Out of curiosity, would this Havanese be considered curly?


My guess is not. When you cut them down, even "wavy" dogs, especially when they get damp, get wavier. The cury ones REALLY look like poodle curls. Let me see if I can find a photo either in the archives here or on Google.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Here are a couple of Google Images that say they are curly Havanese and look like they really probably are. I have NO idea how the person with the long haired one even maintained that coat! But as I said, even the faces of the curly ones were curly.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> Here are a couple of Google Images that say they are curly Havanese and look like they really probably are. I have NO idea how the person with the long haired one even maintained that coat! But as I said, even the faces of the curly ones were curly.


Karen, I am learning so much from this thread, thank you.

The second picture is what I had in mind when I said, "curly." The first picture, I'm not so sure about, I've never seen a Havadoggie like that, almost seems like a cross with something else.

Ricky is definitely a light coated Havanese, VERY similar coat to Panda, they might even be confused with each other at first glance, other than we have Ricky's face/bangs cut like the second picture, .......because that's the way Momi likes it. He is definitely larger than Panda but not as large as Kody (for those unaware, I have met in person all three of Karen's Havadoggies but she has never met Ricky. All three of Karen's dogs are winners in my book as well as a particular fourth one, who is thankfully quietly sleeping next to me right now. :wink2

Ricky's Popi


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Karen, I am learning so much from this thread, thank you.
> 
> The second picture is what I had in mind when I said, "curly." The first picture, I'm not so sure about, I've never seen a Havadoggie like that, almost seems like a cross with something else.


Well, as I said, there are vanishingly few real curlies around anymore. They are mostly older, and would be in shortish puppy cuts, because NO ONE wants to maintain that! LOL! But that IS what they looked like in coat.



Ricky Ricardo said:


> Ricky is definitely a light coated Havanese, VERY similar coat to Panda, they might even be confused with each other at first glance, other than we have Ricky's face/bangs cut like the second picture, .......because that's the way Momi likes it. He is definitely larger than Panda but not as large as Kody (for those unaware, I have met in person all three of Karen's Havadoggies but she has never met Ricky. All three of Karen's dogs are winners in my book as well as a particular fourth one, who is thankfully quietly sleeping next to me right now. :wink2
> 
> Ricky's Popi


Awww, gee! :hug: I'm SO surprised though! I don't know that I've ever seen a full-body photo of Ricky, but from his "headshot" I've always pictured him as being much closer to Kodi in coat type.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> OK, I found some photos of Kodi when he hasn't been freshly blown out where you can see the pretty wave to his coat. This is absolutely correct for a Havanese coat, and has nothing to do with the curly gene. (which he and his parents do not carry) This lovely wave comes back even one day after he has been bathed, but is even more obvious if he has been in humid conditions.


I just posted this thread to show pictures of Shama before and after grooming. After a grooming, her coat doesn't take long to get wavy again, especially if she goes out in the rain ...

https://www.havaneseforum.com/9-grooming/136074-grooming-before-after.html


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

Oliver has a thick coat. It’s soft but puffy. I’ve only got him at an inch long here, and you’re right in that it’s very hard to keep from matting. He’s still blowing coat a little too. But yes, even in a puppy cut, maintenance is tough. Everyone says he looks like a stuffed animal. In fact I was carrying him around once, and someone came over to ask if he was real! But i can’t imagine growing it out. Maybe it won’t be so tough when he gets older. He’s 15 months now. This is him at 12-13 weeks. And 5 lbs.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

This is him 3 months after being shaved to the skin.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Woods said:


> Oliver has a thick coat. It's soft but puffy. I've only got him at an inch long here, and you're right in that it's very hard to keep from matting. He's still blowing coat a little too. But yes, even in a puppy cut, maintenance is tough. Everyone says he looks like a stuffed animal. In fact I was carrying him around once, and someone came over to ask if he was real! But i can't imagine growing it out. Maybe it won't be so tough when he gets older. He's 15 months now. This is him at 12-13 weeks. And 5 lbs.


He's adorable, and I don't think you can tell for sure that he will always maat a lot based on what's happening now. But he does look like he has a lot of undercoat. He'd probably have a beautiful "show" type coat if it were grown out.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Melissa Woods said:


> Oliver has a thick coat. It's soft but puffy. I've only got him at an inch long here, and you're right in that it's very hard to keep from matting. He's still blowing coat a little too. But yes, even in a puppy cut, maintenance is tough. Everyone says he looks like a stuffed animal. In fact I was carrying him around once, and someone came over to ask if he was real! But i can't imagine growing it out. Maybe it won't be so tough when he gets older. He's 15 months now. This is him at 12-13 weeks. And 5 lbs.


Yep, this is what Sundance is like. The wire-y hairs are just here and there, and they came more as he got older. I assumed it was a male thing, actually, until someone mentioned it in passing at one point on the forum.

It's a lot of work some days. I've been planning to cut him after his last 3 baths. With all of this time, it's even easier to avoid. But I love that when I see him, I do just want to hug him like he's a stuffed animal. Oliver is the sans way, I'd have a really hard time not picking him up if I saw him in person!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I didn't read the whole thread, but to answer the question about what you get for coat type by breeding two different types: You get an infinite number of variations from being exactly one parent, or the other, or any range of combination of the two. 

It takes generations to breed one particular type of coat consistently, but the trouble with that is that there are 40 other things you're trying to produce at the same time, so it's not an easy game.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tom King said:


> I didn't read the whole thread, but to answer the question about what you get for coat type by breeding two different types: You get an infinite number of variations from being exactly one parent, or the other, or any range of combination of the two.
> 
> It takes generations to breed one particular type of coat consistently, but the trouble with that is that there are 40 other things you're trying to produce at the same time, so it's not an easy game.


Yeah, I didn't get into that, (other than that I liked the type of coat you guys pretty consistently produce.  I just explained that getting rid of the curly GENE was pretty easy becasuse of DNA testing, and that most breeders had done that, which is why you see vanishingly few poodle-coated Havanese anymore.

There were a fair number of them among the pet Havanese on the forum when I first joined 12 or so years ago, and I haven't seen one in years. I had to really dig on Google to even find an example, when someone asked what a curly coat looked like. I remember talking to Pam about it when I picked up Kodi, and you had decided not to breed Fifth, beautiful as she was, because she just CARRIED the curly gene. I believe she was the last dog you had that did. Once it is out of the gene pool, you don't have to worry about at least THAT factor any more!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

If you breed a carrier of Curly to a drop coat, even if the carrier does not exhibit a curly coat, the puppies can still get modified versions of the drop coat.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

To answer the original question: You can tell what type of coat they will have while they are still wet, right after they are born. After that, you may not know for a year.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tom King said:


> To answer the original question: You can tell what type of coat they will have while they are still wet, right after they are born. After that, you may not know for a year.


You don't think that those with heavier undercoats are fluffier puppies at 8-12 weeks? That has certainly been my observation. (in general) Maybe not in a nuanced way among your gene pool, where in general, they tend to have fairly similar, though certainly not identical coats, but in the general population of Havanese?

The puppies I see from breeders who are looking to put out the "big show coats" tend to be "really fluffy puppies". They don't tend to look like any of my three did when I brought them home. But mine were easier to get through blowing coat than those were too.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tom King said:


> To answer the original question: You can tell what type of coat they will have while they are still wet, right after they are born. After that, you may not know for a year.


And for my own information, can you explain how you would know at birth? I've had the honor of helping with a number of births now, and it would be fun to be able to observe those differences. So far, I can pick out color differences, and head shapes, but to me, a wet newborn coat kind of looks like a seal!


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## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

krandall said:


> ... but to me, a wet newborn coat kind of looks like a seal!


Or an alien!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Wulfin said:


> Or an alien!


No, because they are pretty and shiny! LOL!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

It's been years since we had a curly coat, but you can see it when they are first born. The curly coat may not show up again until the adult coat comes in. I don't know about the thicker coats being different at birth.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tom King said:


> It's been years since we had a curly coat, but you can see it when they are first born. The curly coat may not show up again until the adult coat comes in. I don't know about the thicker coats being different at birth.


Oh, OK, you were talking about curly coat vs. noncurly. I doubt I'd ever see one of those in a puppy these days. I thought you were talking about differences in "big coats" (especially those with lots of undercoat) vs. "light coats" at that point. I think you can often tell that 8-12 weeks, but I haven't seen any sign of it at birth.


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## maximom (Mar 26, 2014)

Thanks so much for all the info- you guys are definitely a knowledgeable group of people! I don’t even mind the fuller coats, but when I got my first havanese the owner let me feel two of his dams coats. One was a rougher, wirey feeling (Im not really sure if that is the correct term or not) and the other had a softer coat. They were both chmpions in the show ring so I assume neither were incorrect coats. He said I was getting a pup from the softer coated dam, and that it would be much easier to maintain. I have seen a few curlier coats too, maybe not as curly as a poodle, and the one I touched was much softer than a poodle, but it had definite curl to it. 

Thanks again for all the info!


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

I'm so glad I decided to open this thread and read about coats and see all the photos that have been posted. I was afraid that Willow might actually be curly coated but now I understand that she is just wavy. When she is freshly groomed she looks a lot less wavy, especially if the groomer does it and not me. When her feet get wet though they look like she has a bad perm on her feet.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

maximom said:


> Thanks so much for all the info- you guys are definitely a knowledgeable group of people! I don't even mind the fuller coats, but when I got my first havanese the owner let me feel two of his dams coats. One was a rougher, wirey feeling (Im not really sure if that is the correct term or not) and the other had a softer coat. They were both chmpions in the show ring so I assume neither were incorrect coats. He said I was getting a pup from the softer coated dam, and that it would be much easier to maintain. I have seen a few curlier coats too, maybe not as curly as a poodle, and the one I touched was much softer than a poodle, but it had definite curl to it.
> 
> Thanks again for all the info!


Yes, I'd be surprised if a really wirey coat would win much in the show ring. However, another thing to consider is if the girl had been out of the ring for a while, and was being used as a brood bitch, that takes a toll on the coat too. I can see how a coat that was not quite as silky, that was cut short (so had a lot of cut ends) and had also had the rough-housing of a lot of puppies could feel a lot harsher than a show-ring-ready coat.

And as far as "curls" are concerned, remember that a coat that has been cut will definitely appear "curlier". That is NOT the same thing as the curly gene. Most wavy coated, absolutely correct-coated Havanese get curly-sh a few days out from a bath and blow-out if they are in a puppy cut. Some more than others. There is definitely some variation. But it is not likely to be caused by the curly gene these days.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> I'm so glad I decided to open this thread and read about coats and see all the photos that have been posted. I was afraid that Willow might actually be curly coated but now I understand that she is just wavy. When she is freshly groomed she looks a lot less wavy, especially if the groomer does it and not me. When her feet get wet though they look like she has a bad perm on her feet.


LOL! That's pretty typical Havanese-coat!


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