# BISCUIT'S OBNOXIOUS BEHAVIOR~HELP!



## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

*:frusty: We are having 2 problems with Biscuit in relation to Heath:

ONE: Biscuit wants to play-fight and takes Heath's toys away much of the time. He will not RLH with him or play normally. They do lie down together and chew things after they get worn out from all that biting.

If I send them out in the yard to play on a gorgeous day like today, Biscuit will just keep wrestling with Heath on the steps and not even venture out into the yard to play in the grass . I throw them balls and Biscuit cannot be distracted even to chase them! :frusty: And Biscuit growls the entire time he is doing this, which is so annoying. He does this when he plays at the dogsitter's too.

This does not allow Heath to play normally and explore (as we saw him do at Tahoe when we had him alone). Heath is such a happy puppy, always entertaining himself and trying to learn. I feel like this is stunting his development. And it is a real drag to keep separating them. We are saying NO to Biscuit too much, which is making him sad.

And all this chewing and biting has caused Biscuit to get major eye and muzzle staining, ugh, from that area being damp. How do we stop or diminish this behavior??

TWO: When I walk Biscuit and Heath, Biscuit now snarls,growls, and lunges at every dog that comes along ! I guess he now feels he has to protect Heath as well as me. Of course, Heath is imitating him! They are both out of control when another dog passes and it is so embarassing. 
HELP~~how do I stop this? (Biscuit is fine off-leash with my husband or dog-sitter, but I don't let him off-leash. I have bad knees and am not fast enough to catch him if I needed to.)

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!*


----------



## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

Amy,
It is hard at first...I remember we were always correcting Casper when he would play too rough with Missy. He didn't seem to get sad over getting corrected all the time. He has always been dominate over Missy, she has learned to just back off. 

Can you take Heath some place for some alone play time? Missy always loved our get away alone time when it was just me and her going to a dog show. Or we would love to go to dog training just her and me.

Learning to walk two was really hard for me. I still like it better when my DH walks one and I walk the other. You really have to take control...Heath is so young, I might just walk them separate until Heath learns to walk good with just you.


----------



## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Amy,
No advice from me, but I'll be watching to see what the experienced ones have to offer.
:hug:


----------



## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Lynn said:


> Learning to walk two was really hard for me. I still like it better when my DH walks one and I walk the other. You really have to take control...Heath is so young, I might just walk them separate until Heath learns to walk good with just you.


Lynn, I agree. It's easiest to have two people walking two dogs, if you can swing it. Otherwise, I have my two, but on different kinds of leashes (Lincoln on a fixed - he will stop when I stop; Scout on a flexi so he doesn't kill himself). If I have a lot of time, I'll walk one, then the other.

Amy, I know it is difficult to separate them, but it sounds like for awhile, that might be better for both Heath and Biscuit. As Heath grows and settles down, the dynamic will change too.

I think it is wise to put limits on behavior that you don't want to see. We thought Lincoln and Scout would "work it out" more on their own, but now, I regret not intervening more, and earlier. We finally did later on, and I'm glad.


----------



## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

Thank you, Sheri, for your support, and to Lynn and Jane, for your excellent suggestions.

I guess I will intervene more to stop these bad behaviors, and so that Heath can have some alone time with us. I guess I am so frustrated that I need to separate them, I just never imagined that that could be an issue when I got the puppy. We got him as company FOR Biscuit. Jeez. I really want to point this out to those of you who are contemplating a 2nd Hav. I don't regret it, we just adore Heath, but it's much more complicated than I anticipated.

(And I must say I have gotten nothing done since I got Heath~~it's already so time-consuming caring for two dogs.)

The interesting thing about the play-fighting-biting, is that Heath loves it and I feel it's teaching him a bad thing, right off the bat. He's a little pup, but he can hold his own. They seem equally dominant, and well-matched in that respect. But Heath is more easy-going, while Biscuit is more sensitive and soulful.

Re the walks, they actually walk very well together and I kind of enjoy walking two. It's like this little team of horses, so cute! Heath is very athletic and walks at a faster clip than B ! It is just when other dogs pass that B now suddenly freaks out and H follows suit. DH does take Biscuit out separately several times a week, which is good for him.

I guess in a few months things will be much better, but in the meantime I'll just have to step in more! Thanks again!


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Oh, Amy, I'm sorry to hear you're having to re-train Biscuit as well. My guess would be he's asserting his alpha status, but what do I know? I haven't done this. My instinct would be to separate them if the playfighting gets too rough or too much, but I see your dilemma of that being counterproductive to why you got Heath in the first place! lol

Hopefully, it is a phase and it'll pass.

No doubt in my mind that this is far more work than we hear about on the forum! I learned that lesson when I dog-sat a few times. Egads. lol

Kara


----------



## marb42 (Oct 19, 2008)

Amy, I wish I had advice, but I only have one. I hope you get some great advice and that things get easier for you.
Gina


----------



## iluvhavs (Jul 21, 2008)

Amy, I think a lot of it is getting used to watching the way dogs play with one another. The growling, biting, wrestling is all part of it. Lucy and Rico have wrestled since the day she arrived. They chase each other around the house, jumping and biting all the way. They LOVE IT!! Every now and then the older one gets aggravated and let's his displeasure be known, but Lucy hangs in there. Once I realized that Rico could recognize Lucy's size and held back on his play, I backed off and let them settle it themselves. If Rico wants my help, he jumps on my lap or begs me to pick him up. That's very rare. They have been together now for 3 months and all is well. She used to want to lay down next to him and sleep with him, but that's where he draws the line.

Give them a little freedom to be dogs. They have a lot of fur to protect them from the teeth. If they are hurt, they'll yip and let you know. Just let it happen. If they keep going back for more, it must be good. Biscuit will settle down as he gets older.

Regarding the walking: When a dog is on leash they feel very vulnerable. That's what makes them growl at other dogs...they feel they have no escape so they have to try their best to scare off any threats. I went through this with Lucy at training classes. It took her the full 6 weeks to get used to being on a leash around other dogs. Start an obedience class with Biscuit to get him used to being around other dogs. Walk them seperately until you are able to control him on the leash. I still have problems walkinig my two together. We go to the dog park just to walk on a leash and get used to it. Lucy still does not like other dogs coming up to her. She probably never will. But that's OK.


----------



## Perugina (May 28, 2008)

Play fighting is normal. My Sophie loves it when my friend's bichipoo comes over. Even though Lucy is taller and heavier, and Sophie usually ends up on the bottom looking up, she loves it and goes back for more. My husband used to hate it when we would take care of Lucy because he got all nervous and upset when they would play fight. Try to remain calm and take your cues from Heath. If he is sick of the play and truly is trying to end the game and wants to be left alone, give him a place to go where he feels safe. You could leave his crate open or maybe his dog bed. These places would be out-of-bounds for Biscuit. If Biscuit tries to follow into Heath's crate or bed, a firm but calm "hey!" or "uh-uh" along with some body blocking should do the trick.

If Heath is like Sophie (a little instigator) and just keeps coming back for more, let them go. If one dog is too rough, the other dog will usually give a high pitched cry or bark to let them know. The offender will usually back off or try to make ammends (Sophie gives lickies). If the level of both dogs growling just keeps escalating, and the growls are sounding different then normal play growling, a loud noise (sharp voice sound or banging a pot, etc.) should distract them and you can separate them. Sometimes, it does go on too long and you just want some peace and quiet, so distracting them with sound and then getting them to focus on you through a toy or a treat will give you a breather. 

As for walking with two... When we dogsit for Lucy, and I take the both of them for a walk, I first let them sniff and poop/pee as we go past our first three houses. If they haven't done it by then, I then prepare to get them into the "zone". I shorten both leashes, have one dog on either side and say "lets go". If they pull too much I say "uh-uh" and stop, make them sit and focus on me, then say "lets go" and start again. Sometimes it takes a block or block and a half for them to get into a good pace without too much pull. If they are doing really well together I will let the leash out so they can walk ahead of me beside eachother. However, Sophie (the instigator) will usually mess this up first, so then I go back to shortening the leash and putting them on either side of me.

Please remind me how old Heath is. Have either of them been to obedience training? My friend and I took Sophie and Lucy to the local Petsmart puppy/beginner classes. It's a great place to teach them leash manners along with how to walk by and greet other dogs.

Just remember to stay calm but be assertive and try not to get frustrated or nervous. Dogs will pick up on that, see it as weak energy and do their own thing (my husband tends to do this with Sophie). Good luck and keep us posted on your progress!


----------



## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Amy,

The play fighting, biting is a normal part of their interaction. In the very beginning I worried constantly about Bailey getting hurt since he was so much smaller than Milo. Part of their routine at that time was the RLH, during which Milo would either sail over Bailey or occasionally land terrifyingly close to him. I feared an injury all the time.

To this day they play fight but I hardly even notice it any more. They're just being puppies and doing what they love to do.


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Does Heath seem to like the rough-housing?

I can't stand when my kids fight, I wonder if dogs fighting would drive me equally nuts? lol


----------



## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

Amy R. said:


> .
> 
> I guess in a few months things will be much better, *but in the meantime I'll just have to step in more! * Thanks again!


Amy, it worked for us...I am sure some dogs are harder to train how you want them to play together, but be consistant in your training.

I still have a little problems with Casper and Missy playing toys....Casper would never let Missy have any toys if I didn't step in.


----------



## Judy A (Jan 13, 2007)

I was feeling bad for you until you mentioned your "gorgeous day".....windchills going to -30 with blowing snow, new snowfall of 5 inches, etc here.....LOL!


----------



## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Amy, I had this feeling too when we brought Cash in...But it was Cash who was the aggressor...so I felt I had to protect Jasper's status as first dog. But I was encouraged to just let them work it out, to step in when I thought it was getting to0 rough and to be sure to spend one on one time with each of them.

It got better when Cash got to be more of an older pup at 6 months or so but until then Jasper didn't want to have anything to do with Cash. But then they started to play. Eventually Cash took over in a way as top dog... as he is the more balanced of the two. It will work out.

But do correct Biscuit for growling and protecting...that is a bad habit. We found teaching Jasper to heel and sit when the offending person or car was coming helped the most. We also had to use a scary collar... but wish we had used it sooner. Ironically, Jasper loves this collar and steps right into it...he hated the gentle leader

http://www.thepetstoreonline.com/gooddogcollars.html

It is much easier walking one dog at a time but I had success with this dual leash... I liked it better than others because the leash part was close enough to the loop that I could control each dog separately if I had to.

http://www.jbpet.com/Pet-Walker-Plus-Nylon-Leash,7252.html

Take heart...it will get better.


----------



## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Amy, it is weird when you see two dogs playing and it looks and sounds like they are trying to kill each other. As long as no one hollers in pain and as long as Heath keeps going back for more, I'd let them play. If you are tired of it, separate them. Put Heath in a pen and let Biscuit wander the yard for awhile and then switch. 
My girls were always playing a rousing game of bite-face and as long as no one got hurt, it was okay. It didn't teach Sedona any bad habits. As they've gotten older, that type of play has diminished and now it's just running and the occasional tumbling over each other. 
As for walking, I have one who goes nuts on a leash when she sees another dog and we're working on that by directing her attention towards me with treats when another dog is headed our way. I much prefer walking the dogs separately but will walk two together on occasion.

Hang in there, puppyhood shall pass..............


----------



## Poornima (Jun 29, 2007)

Amy, I am sorry that the current dynamics between Biscuit and Heath are stressful to you. You already have received good advice/ suggestions here. I just want to offer my support and best wishes that Biscuit and Heath soon become buddies. 

I thought I would share with you that even as Biscuit and Heath get closer, their relationship will evolve as time goes on. I see the subtle diffrence in how Benji and Lizzie have changed in their relaitonship. Benji was more protective of her when she was a puppy. As she matured, he is the alpha and they do have thier own ups and downs. She is quite exuberant in her affection in greeting us, cuddling us and he sometimes will put her in place to make sure his time or affection with us is not being encroached upon. It is funny to see how they will fight, make up, and sometimes really be mad with each other (that's when I have to intervene, it's usually Benji who is obnoxious, Lizzie being sweet and docile.) But they are so tightly bonded, can't do without each other.  

Good luck! :hug:


----------



## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

Thanks so much for the terrific advice and support Kara, Rory, Geri, Gina, Perugina (love your name, my favorite candy and my favorite town in Italy, Perugia) , Susan, Missy, Judy (sorry , I know it is so bitter everywhere, my DD #2 is in NYC and many relatives in the Mid-West), and Poornima!

It looks to me like everyone evolves their techniques in an individual way as the dynamic shifts and evolves between the two dogs, and you have given me some great ideas. I just need to get my mind right and be more flexible .

Heath is almost 4 1/2 months old & I do need to enroll him in a puppy class. I just haven't because, other than the initial barking problem, he is a super-easy puppy. I don't mind the play-fighting in general, and Heath loves it, but Biscuit is obsessive about it. So now I will separate them more.

Sorry if I am complaining too much ~~ we do love them both to pieces and are so glad we got Heath. They are so cute together, much of the time. Thanks again!


----------



## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Thumperlove said:


> I can't stand when my kids fight, I wonder if dogs fighting would drive me equally nuts? lol


For me, it depends on my mood and how loud and fervent the "play" gets. Sometimes, I'll try to separate them, but then they (as a tumbling unit) run away from me, so I guess it bothers me more than them. Still, that's valid, and I do separate them if I can - even just for a few minutes until they "forget" what they were up to.


----------



## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

Amy, Brady gets a little obsessed with Dugan sometimes too. Often, Dugan is the instigator, but Brady doesn't let us. The worst is when he tries to jump him and starts when walking:frusty:. I just pick Dugan up and get him out of the line of fire. For the most part, Dugan can defend himself from Brady's bullying ways.


----------



## hyindc (Apr 21, 2008)

Amy,

Having just been through the experience you describe, boy can I relate. The main reason we got Luke was because Paco never met a dog he didn't want to play with forever. And sure enough, when we brought Luke home, Paco thought he had his very own full-time live toy. The problem was that Luke was 1/4 Paco's size, and by nature did not seem to enjoy rough-housing, especially when compared to a good quiet nap in a sunny corner of the house. It was tough going for about three months. Luke learned to growl to get Paco away, but Paco seldom understood. Poor Luke would run under a bed or couch that was too low for Paco, in order to hide and protect himself. Paco meant no harm, he just didn't understand. We got an ex-pen for Luke, and he often jumped into it and waited for us to close the gate to keep Paco out. I thought we made a terrible mistake. BUT, we didn't. Like everyone says, given time, they work it out. Paco learned to nip softly so it doesn't hurt or scare of Luke. Paco also learned that a quiet growl from Luke means "I'm not in the mood." Luke grew to Paco's size, so his fear left him and now he seeks Paco out to play!!! It was three hard months for all of us, but so very very worth it. The ex-pen is now in storage and the dogs probably spend an average of three hours a day chasing each other gleefully through the house, playing tug-of-war with every toy, refusing to go on walks unless they are BOTH doing it together, and sometimes even sleeping on each other. It's gone from hell to a dream come true.

As for walks, Paco wanted to approach every dog on the street to play, even if the other dog was not interested or growled at Paco. Luke, on the other hand, barked and growled at every dog he saw on the street. Walking them together started out as one more nightmare I hated. Over the months, Paco learned not only to interpret Luke's signals, but that the same signals from dogs on the street meant the same thing! Luke learned from Paco that not every dog on the street is a threat....some are even fun to sniff and get to know. Now, as I said, they love to go for walks together, and even more important, I love to walk them together.

Bottom line - it is the rare situation that does not work itself out. I can no longer imagine life without my two happy dogs playing together while I work. But I also can't imagine how I remained sane during the first ten week shake-down.


----------



## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

*THANKS for the morale booster, Harvey, Jane, and Karen. Fortunately Heath loves the rough play, but it is ALL Biscuit wants to do for hours on end, and it prevents Heath from playing with toys, RLH, sharing and exploring the yard. So now I'm taking Heath out into the yard for separate play and ball chasing. He is the cutest little romper you ever did see.

Biscuit is very obsessed and jealous. If Heath has a toy and we give B. one too, B. drops the one we just gave him, and is only interested in Heath's. You cannot fool him easily! If DH fusses over Biscuit, Biscuit gets mad and sulky. We keep cuddling B. for reassurance.

They do walk great together and it's an excellent bonding time for them. It's just that B. now is aggressive w/passing dogs (and he is used to zillions of dogs on our path) and of course, Heath mimics him.

I know it will all sort itself out over time, and I SO appreciate all the stories of how you make it work. Very helpful suggestions!*


----------



## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Amy, it sounds like Biscuit is a little insecure, hence the growling, lunging and barking at other dogs and the obsession and constant attention-getting with Heath. Ricky does this to a small extent. I agree that trying to do diff. activities with each dog, individually, might help. It might help build up Biscuit's confidence and will give Heath a chance to do other normal puppy activities, besides wrestling with big brother.

Perugina wrote:* "As for walking with two... When we dogsit for Lucy, and I take the both of them for a walk, I first let them sniff and poop/pee as we go past our first three houses. If they haven't done it by then, I then prepare to get them into the "zone". I shorten both leashes, have one dog on either side and say "lets go". If they pull too much I say "uh-uh" and stop, make them sit and focus on me, then say "lets go" and start again. Sometimes it takes a block or block and a half for them to get into a good pace without too much pull. If they are doing really well together I will let the leash out so they can walk ahead of me beside each other. However, Sophie (the instigator) will usually mess this up first, so then I go back to shortening the leash and putting them on either side of me."*

This is *exactly* what I do when walking our two! That is, up until the letting the leash out in front of you part. I like to get the 'stuff' out of the way near the house, since they're excited about being out there anyway, but when it's time to walk, it's time to walk and I, too, enter the 'zone'. Then, at the end, we all get to fool around once again, out front, before coming into the house.

Of course, we haven't had a decent walk in over a month due to very cold and/or snowy weather, but that's what we usually do ! lol

Amy, I think lessons with Heath would be a lot of fun for him. His own private time with mommy or daddy. Then Biscuit gets to have private time with whomever stays home.


----------



## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Harvey, I have GOT to tell you just how incredibly sweet and adorable your avatar is! Those are fine looking Havs you've got there.


----------



## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

Amy,
Be glad that you haven't had the problem I had when Cali came to live at our house. Chico was jealous and began marking, something that he had never done before. I was so upset! I had to replace carpet padding because the urine stain went right through the carpet.

He hasn't done it since he has adjusted to her. 

They get along well now, but after reading your posts, I remember the jealousy and both of them wanting the exact same toy etc.

They both vie for our attention still, but all in all, it is wonderful.
I am having a little difficulty with practicing for the trick training class with chico.
Cali is always butting in when she hears the clicker and even if I put her in a different part of the house, she can still hear it and wants to get in on the treats!
I know you are just loving little Heath and Biscuit will no doubt come around in time.


----------



## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Sounds like Biscuit is trying to establish himself as alpha.


----------



## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

Thank you Marj for your great advice. You are always so sage and sensible.

Nan, it's so good to hear from you, and I appreciate your sharing your experience. 
You know, I am really grateful that Biscuit hasn't regressed with marking in our house or anything since Heath came. But funnily (or not! ) enough, DH and I saw him mark INSIDE the house on a sofa at the dog sitter's (where there are other dogs) when we dropped him off (and took Heath to Tahoe). Which tells me he is feeling a little stressed.

Yes, I think you are right Michele. Biscuit really is such a sweet, sensitive, souful dog, and Heath has rocked his world. We had really spoiled Biscuit. But I know he'll get better cause there are times when they kiss, lie down together, etc. Those good times are the best !!


----------

