# Moxie's lump



## moxie (Feb 6, 2008)

Has anyone seen their baby develop a lump at the site of a rabies shot?
We found a lump on Moxie. Nervous, we went to the vet and she thought this was the cause because the timing is right, discovered days after the vaccination.
Anyone?


----------



## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Yes, it can happen and is normally nothing to worry about. Just keep an eye on it and look for signs of infection (hot, tender, increase in size, fluctuation, etc.). If you are feeling a lump in a different area, it may be a swollen lymph node which can be a common side effect after vaccination.


----------



## moxie (Feb 6, 2008)

Thanks, Maryam!


----------



## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I haven't, but I've read about it just the same as Maryam had described. It is usually not a problem unlike so many other reactions that can come of the vaccine.


----------



## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

Evye had a lump at the vaccination site for about 2 weeks or more. It kept going down in size each time I checked it. It almost appears she lost a little hair at the site as well.


----------



## marb42 (Oct 19, 2008)

Debra,
Marble had his shots last week, and the vet let me feel the bumps right after the vaccines. She said the bumps were normal, especially on a Hav with less meat on his bones, and that it would go away in a day or so. 
Gina


----------



## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Thankfully I never had that with my three - does the lump hurt them?


----------



## moxie (Feb 6, 2008)

Moxie doesn't seem to be uncomfortable.


----------



## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

McKenna had a reaction to her rabies shot that started with a lump so yes, lumps can and often do occur after a vaccine. McKenna's lump was about the size of a quarter. My vet said that in most cases the lump disappears with no further problems. The skin covering McKenna's lump eventually turned very dark and she lost all the hair there. She developed a round mark that had the vet thinking she had ringworm. After a biopsy it ended up being a reaction to her rabies shot. 
It took quite awhile but the lump eventually went away, the skin came back to normal color and the hair FINALLY grew back in though she is a little sensitive to brushing over that spot. No more rabies shots for Miss McKenna ever!


----------



## moxie (Feb 6, 2008)

Susan,
You will just take a chance w/o rabies shots? I guess that is an option to consider, but it seems risky.


----------



## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

I am glad it does not hurt her.


----------



## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

Will a vet consider that a true reaction, where it was local and not systemic, so that they would write a letter of exclusion, I wonder? Sounds like Evye and McKenna had a similar reaction with the hair loss.


----------



## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

> You will just take a chance w/o rabies shots?


Yes, absolutely. The chances of McKenna becoming infected with rabies in the areas we live or the areas we take her are slim to none. CA does not have much of a rabies problem, my home doesn't get wildlife like squirrels or other potential carriers. My vet agreed that she should not be given any more rabies shots and has agreed to write a waiver for me. I just haven't gone and gotten it yet.


----------



## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

My concern about McKenna's reaction was that if the rabies shot had so many outward signs of problems (ie lump, skin dicoloration, and hair loss) what is happening inside that I cannot see?


----------



## moxie (Feb 6, 2008)

That's true, Susan. I am glad to learn about the waivers. I am hoping that his reaction doesn't become as involved as McKenna's did. 
We had titers done for distemper and parvo instead of the vaccines.


----------



## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

Susan, again I am so grateful for this forum to enlighten us about things we would not ever know otherwise. I was so ignorant to the reaction Evye had with her rabies. She had a lump which I considered totally normal following her rabies shot. Some hair loss I questoined. But today when you talked about a blackened area, I did a thorough search and yes, she she does have a black/gray area where her injection site was. I called my vet and he explained to me this is a very rare reaction, usually a local reaction but still things I need to watch for, i.e., if the area become red, area of fluctuation, tenderness. Bentley will have his next appointment in 2 weeks and he will look at it then to make sure it is improving not worsening, or before if anything changes. He said we will "address" how we handle future rabies vaccinations. I said "you bet your +++++ we will." This is my second pet who has had reactions to rabies. The first time it was systemic and she never had another one. Law abiding, neither will Evye.


----------



## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Poor Moxie! I'm glad he is acting normal.
Keep us informed please.
Carole


----------



## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

moxie said:


> Susan,
> You will just take a chance w/o rabies shots? I guess that is an option to consider, but it seems risky.


I believe I read somewhere that they think the rabies shot is actually good for about 10 years. I think there is a study going on about it


----------



## RikiDaisyDixie (Apr 15, 2008)

*Rabies shot*

So awful that our dogs get the same dose as a Rottweiler.

Daisy lost a patch of hair where she had her shot. It didn't grow back for about six months. I wish I could get a waiver. Our city comes to check you if you don't renew your license with proof of vaccines every three years. My dogs have had two, and that should be more than enough. The only dogs they ever see are havanese or our friends dogs...and a few very healthy dogs at agility or at a show.

My dogs live indoors except for potty walks and hikes where we don't go near any wild animals! A few insane humans and their dogs off-leash.

Hope Moxie is doing better. My cats used to get lumps at the injection site too.


----------



## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

I went to bed thinking about this, couldn't fall asleep. I would really hate not to get Evye rabies vaccinations. I think the odds of her encountering a rabid animal is very, very slim...but !!! Then, God forbid if she bit someone...what would happen then...plus the hassle with grooming, boarding. This reaction was minimal; bump, some hair loss...but the discoloration worries me though...if this is as bad as it got I might be willing, but I worry the next would be worse. I wonder if she got a short course of prednisone prior to the vaccine, if that would make a difference.... a lot of questions for my vet.

My cat never went outside so when she stopped getting rabies vaccines, I had no worries. Her reaction was systemic and needed epinephrine and Benadryl. It was pretty scary.


----------



## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Sharlene, if you get a letter from your vet that Evye is allergic to the rabies vaccine, you do not need to legally give it to her and if by some slim chance Evye does bite someone and by another extremely slim chance she gets rabies, there won't be any repercussions with her having it because you have the papers that show she had a reaction to it. But the odds of that are so slim, I don't think it's worth it to worry about. Plus, you still have to ask your vet to look at her bump and see what he says, no? Let us know what happens!


----------



## moxie (Feb 6, 2008)

I think that even if the unusual happened and and skin was broken in an incident, Moxie would be taken away if his vaccine was not current and isolated until rabies was ruled out. Unless he has a waiver?


----------



## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

So even if the off chance she bit someone, they would treat it like another dog bite as long as I have a waiver? 

The lump is gone. It was about quarter-size. It got consistently smaller over a couple of week's time. It wasn't until this thread that I realized this was not usual. A lump I would expect, even a little hair loss I wouldn't expect to be too unusual but when Susan talked about the black area, that's when I checked her thoroughly and noticed a "gray" splotch underneath the hair. There is nothing but some slight discoloration (gray). I keep touching the area and it doesn't bother her and I will check every day for redness that he described. You can tells she has had some hair loss, the hair is thinner in that area and parted but definitely not a bald spot. It wasn't until reading the post that I put it all together. Maybe I should call my vet and ask her to be seen now...but I have a feeling he would tell me what he told me over the phone, to watch for the symptoms he described. There is little to see other than a gray-looking area, maybe 2 x 2". I think this time she came out okay...I just hope he goes along with a waiver so there won't be a second. Geeezzz.... my life has been anything but dull !!


----------



## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

Do they physicially take them "away" while in quarantine? I thought that could be done at home with a pre and postvisit from Animal Control.


----------



## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

I don't know about quarantine but I do know that if you have a waiver then they'll just treat it as a regular dog bite. But if you go this route, be SURE you have that waiver in a safe place because if you don't have it to present then it doesn't matter that you had one at one point... always get a replacement from the vet if you lose it or something happens to it so you have it on hand just in case.


----------



## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

I hope he gives me a waiver. He said we will "address" how future rabies will be handled...what ever that means. He didn't give me one for my kitty but being totally, completely indoors, probably figured I would never have the need.

He referred to it as vasculitis. This is what I found and I probably need to stop reading on it because it's scaring the poop out of me. It's this clip that scares me the most, but also educates me what to watch for : *or may take months to develop noticeably.*

Ischemic Dermatopathy / Cutaneous vasculitis
A little known and often misdiagnosed reaction to the rabies vaccine in dogs, this problem may develop near or over the vaccine administration site and around the vaccine material that was injected, or as a more widespread reaction. Symptoms include ulcers, scabs, darkening of the skin, lumps at the vaccine site, and scarring with loss of hair. In addition to the vaccination site, lesions most often develop on the ear flaps (pinnae), on the elbows and hocks, in the center of the footpads and on the face. Scarring may be permanent. Dogs do not usually seem ill, but may develop fever. Symptoms may show up within weeks of vaccination, *or may take months to develop noticeably.*
Dogs with active lesion development and / or widespread disease may be treated with pentoxyfylline, a drug that is useful in small vessel vasculitis, or tacrolimus, an ointment that will help suppress the inflammation in the affected areas.

Owners and veterinarians of dogs who have developed this type of reaction should review the vaccination protocol critically and try to reduce future vaccinations to the extent medically and legally possible. At the very least, vaccines from the same manufacturer should be avoided. It is also recommended that the location in which future vaccinations are administered should be changed to the rear leg, as far down on the leg as possible and should be given in the muscle rather than under the skin.


----------



## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

moxie said:


> I think that even if the unusual happened and and skin was broken in an incident, Moxie would be taken away if his vaccine was not current and isolated until rabies was ruled out. Unless he has a waiver?


That would be my concern too. Or would they euthanize a dog if it bit someone and you couldn't show it did have a current rabies shot? Maybe that's just paranoid thinking.....I don't know.
Carole


----------



## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Sharlene, stop reading....you're going to tear your own hair out soon! 

McKenna's lump developed right away but the discoloration and hair loss showed up about 8 weeks after her shot. It was total hair loss, not simply a thinning of the hair and it was tender to the touch. She yelped if a comb hit the bare skin. It was so odd that the vet I took her to was convinced she had ringworm. I treated her topically for ringworm for almost three months. When there was absolutely no change, the vet did a punch biopsy and that's when they discovered that it was a vaccine reaction.
I haven't shared this part of the story because I feel like such a trusting idiot.....
A year after her first rabies vaccine my vet insisted that the bad reaction had come from a puppy shot, not from rabies because they NEVER give rabies shots on the left shoulder, only on the right. I argued, he argued back, and it seemed to make sense so I let them give her a second rabies shot (protocol was one shot, then a year later another and then wait three years.) Well, wouldn't you know, exact same reaction!!! That's when a different vet said that she should not have any more rabies shots and agreed to give me the waiver.


----------



## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

Thank you Susan for sharing that....and for what it's worth, you do not sound like an idiot at all. We are all so trusting of our vets. We are at their mercy with information we assume they know and we know so little about. If my vet insists on continued rabie vaccinations, I will probably get a second opinion. I feel like I can trust him (almost 18 years) BUT !!! I always wonder what if....I wasn't home when my little kitty had her reaction...what would have happened? Once is bad enough...twice !!! If 2 vets tell me I should continue, well...I'll face that bridge when I come to it...but you're right..I need to stop reading !!! We were outside in the bright daylight with the sun shining where I could really pull back Evye's hair and I don't see any sort of lesion anywhere and it definitely does not hurt her. Thanks again.


----------



## Hav a lot of pets (Apr 4, 2008)

Linus had a pretty huge lump, actually. Now he has a neon sticker on his file, and we have to go pick up a pill to give him before any shots. Not a big deal at all. It is just like having an allergy to pollen, dogs can have an allergy to what they use in the vaccine (think allergy testing).

After Linus started taking his dose before shots, he has never had any reaction again. 

His lump actually took about 2 months to go down. In some rare cases, the lump does not get reabsorbed, and it is removed. 

Hope that helps to calm any fears,

Karen


----------



## moxie (Feb 6, 2008)

Good news: I think Moxie's rabies lump is getting smaller. 
Now I learn from my CT vet that the titers for Parvo and Distemper were a waste of money since there is no guarantee that his immunity will continue which could leave him vulnerable w/o me knowing. She says they should all be boosted at one year, no titer,...???
Maybe this is a different thread.


----------



## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Hi Debra, checkout this post and the thread it is in:

http://havaneseforum.com/showpost.php?p=233503&postcount=15

Jeanne talks about how she had Maddie titered and her vet recommended doing titers to check for immunity every 2 years afterwards. I think that is a reasonable plan.

To clarify, I did the puppy series and 1 year booster. After that, I am considering doing titers instead of revaccinating (our vet recommends revaccinating every 3 years after the 1 year booster, so at ages 4 and 7. From age 10 onward, they do not recommend any more vaccinations).


----------



## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

Debra, I will be watching very closely for responses.

To clarify, I did the puppy series and 1 year booster. After that, I am considering doing titers instead of revaccinating (our vet recommends revaccinating every 3 years after the 1 year booster.

Jane, if I am understanding correctly, Evye has finished her puppy series, so after she has her 1-year shots, I can go to doing titers following that until age 4 (ish).


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Gryff had a really hard time with his first set of vaccinations. He was very swollen and cranky. It worked itself out and he has been fine with subsequent vaccines.


----------



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Debbie- yes, titer after the first year boosters. Since Dash and Moxie are about the same age- you should get his booster now and next year you can titer instead of vaccinations. I did the one year booster on Dasher and now he should be done with dhpp forever


----------



## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

I just called Environmental Health/York County/South Carolina and spoke with an "engineer" regarding rabies and pets who have had reactions. He told me if my vet would write a waiver claiming such, my pet would be exempt. If my pet were to bite someone, it would be quarantined *within my house* for 10 days. The absolute worse case scenario, if it were suspected my pet got bit by a questionable animal, such as squirrel, racoon, bat or other, she would need to be quarantined (in house) for 6 months if they could not confiscate the animal that bit her. I'm not liking that part at all. He felt my pet was at low risk if she is kept inside at night, not free to roam, etc....which is not the case. I still want to discuss this in depth with my vet though...I'm not entirely sure this is the right thing to do.


----------



## moxie (Feb 6, 2008)

Thanks all, I love the info that is turning up. I just wish I hadn't paid for the titers at his one year check up. I didn't realize that titers weren't effective until after that.
Oh well, that won't be that last dime wasted on Mr. Mox.
Guess I didn't do my forum homework ahead of time.


----------



## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Evye's Mom said:


> Debra, I will be watching very closely for responses.
> 
> To clarify, I did the puppy series and 1 year booster. After that, I am considering doing titers instead of revaccinating (our vet recommends revaccinating every 3 years after the 1 year booster.
> 
> Jane, if I am understanding correctly, Evye has finished her puppy series, so after she has her 1-year shots, I can go to doing titers following that until age 4 (ish).


Actually, my vet's office doesn't recommend any shots after the 1-year booster for a period of THREE years. So, during that time, my understanding is that no titers are needed either. After three years have passed (following the 1-yr booster), then I need to decide either to: revaccinate or start doing titers. Lincoln is due for shots in July (he is 4 years old), so I am trying to decide what to do right now 

I think some vets are still following an older protocol that recommended shots every year after the 1-year booster. I asked my vet about that but she said they no longer recommend that (overvaccinating). That might be one source of confusion about all this.


----------



## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

Thank you Jane !!! So, like little Mr. Moxie, Evye will still need her 1 yr boosters (rabies questionable). 

Thank you all for such good info.


----------



## Milo's Mom (Aug 31, 2008)

Could someone please explain "titer" to me?


----------



## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

Joyce, by definition, Antibody titer: A test that measure the presence and amount of antibodies in blood. These antibodies may beagainst a particular type of tissue, cell, bacteria, virus, or other external substance.


----------



## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

Debra, just checking in to see how Moxie's lump is? Has it gone completely down?


----------

