# Curly coat puppy cut, some pictures



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Nina is coming tonight at six. I have the camera batteries charging.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

It's going to be a 2 evening process. Nina's owner had wrist surgery, so she hadn't been brushed in a good while. A comb wouldn't even start to go through.

They wanted it really short, so Pam used a #4 skip-tooth blade. She goes against the grain on the body, and with the grain on the legs, and finishes up the legs with scissors.

I took some pictures, but haven't even looked at them yet. I'll post them tomorrow night after we finish. We worked on her an hour and haven't touched her head yet. Fortunately, her owner lives close by, so she's just going to bring her back tomorrow night.


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## heatherk (Feb 24, 2011)

Careful Tom, you'll have all sorts of people moving closer to you once they get the word that you're helping out with grooming neighbors' dogs .


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Nina is one of our babies from a few years ago. It used to be you didn't know if a dog was a carrier for curly or not unless you happened to produce one. Now that there is a genetic test available, we can eliminate the possibility easily.

Nina is a great girl who is much loved by many people. She just has a coat that we won't produce again.


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## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

heatherk said:


> Careful Tom, you'll have all sorts of people moving closer to you once they get the word that you're helping out with grooming neighbors' dogs .


ound: Hell, I have been trying to convince my Husband to move South for Years. Maybe if I tell him that I'll never have to spend another Saturday grooming the dogs he'll finally agree! eace:


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## curly_DC (Nov 27, 2011)

Tom: Photos would be great! It's funny that I can't really tell if Sergio has curly hair or not. His hair is short. Needs a "trim."


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Hi Tom, Tell Pam thanks for showing us the grooming. I have a picture of Zoey at about 11 weeks and one at about a year and a half. Don't curly coats show as puppys? Do you think you can tell by the latest picture if she has a curly coat? Or even a cotton coat?


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

we had a visitor yesterday and Tillie had been in and out of the rain several times to go potty and I hadn't combed her out and fixed her hair for the day yet and my friend laughed and said it looks like I had braided Tillie's hair and then took all the braids out! LOL I always thought of it more as a 'crimper' effect ... my 80's girl... 
I wonder if 'wavy' IS more standard, but for showing they just blow dry them straight just like a curl haired woman can use a flat iron to straighten her hair?

Curious about the curly coated hav pictures... they ARE coming, right Tom?


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

TilliesMom said:


> we had a visitor yesterday and Tillie had been in and out of the rain several times to go potty and I hadn't combed her out and fixed her hair for the day yet and my friend laughed and said it looks like I had braided Tillie's hair and then took all the braids out! LOL I always thought of it more as a 'crimper' effect ... my 80's girl...
> I wonder if 'wavy' IS more standard, but for showing they just blow dry them straight just like a curl haired woman can use a flat iron to straighten her hair?
> 
> Curious about the curly coated hav pictures... they ARE coming, right Tom?


 I think its been a process and the top show dogs have been breed into them a much straiter silkier coat. If you look at show dogs 12 years ago they look more like the slightly wavy natural coat stated in the standard.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> I think its been a process and the top show dogs have been breed into them a much straiter silkier coat. If you look at show dogs 12 years ago they look more like the slightly wavy natural coat stated in the standard.


I suspect it's more the way they are groomed than the straightness of their coats. If you look at the European show dogs (and a lot of the lines are in BOTH the U.S. and Europe) you will see dogs shown with shiny, silky, slightly wavy coats. (and often with the hair down over their eyes) You hardly ever see them looking as "coiffed" as they do here. But essentially, they are the same dogs.


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

I agree with Karen. Well groomed show dogs have had their hair stretch dried and sometimes even flat-ironed. Some show havs actually have an incorrect FRIZZY coat, but you wouldn't know it with all the product and such to get the coat flat. 

Suzi, without feeling her coat and working with it, it's a little difficult to tell for sure, but her hair looks similar to my Hanna's if I just let her air dry. Her hair is naturally wavy and will dry that way if it's not blow dried. Hanna's hair is not quite silky but not quite cottony either. It's got a lot of texture and body, but is light and airy at the same time.

Here in the US our culture is quite different from European culture, and I've seen that across the board with business, music, and now show dogs. In business, here in the good ol' US we will stay late at work on a Friday night and not leave until that sale is finalized! In Europe, 5:00 hits and everyone packs up, ok, time to go home, we will finish next week!

In music, my husband was a competative bagpiper and there is the Scottish style of piping and then there's the Canadian and US style. On this side of the pond, pipers practice for endless hours to make a group of 12 pipers play in absolute perfect sync and sound like just 1 piper. Scottish style, much more laid back, relaxed, but would be considered sloppy here. 

With the Havanese grooming, here, many owners will do a full grooming every week. Top show dogs are groomed to perfection. European couterparts are often bathed monthly. Interesting to note the diffrences in style, but I'm used to being more on the fast-paced, perfectionist type of lifestyle. It would be nice to take it down a notch and I'd probably live longer!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Pam ended up finishing Nina the next day when I was gone to work, so I'll have to add some at a later time.

Here are a few I took the first night. She goes in and out of the lake almost every day, so the owner wants her kept short for quick drying. This is about as long as her hair gets. Her parents, now retired, each carried one copy of curly, but both had nice silky coats. It used to be that you only knew if the parents were carriers if they produced a curly pup.

Sometimes, the only time you can tell if the hair is going to be curly, is when they are first born and the hair is still wet, or until the adult coat comes in. Nina had a nice silky puppy coat.

Any of the bushy looking Havanese will most likely be carrying at least one copy of curly. Even the full curly coat-much like a Poodle or Bichon-can be brushed out to not look curly. Actually, it looks like they are doing quite well in the showring these days.

We didn't use Fifth for breeding, because she turned out to be curly too, even though she was everything else we were looking for in a breeding dog.

Vetgen has had the test for hair types for a couple of years now, so the guesswork has been taken out of it. We will not produce another curly coat. For 50 bucks, it's a sure thing now. The curly coat is WAY more trouble to keep groomed. Even having one copy of curly can modify the drop coat, but you never know how much until the adult coat comes in. The drop coat on a dog not even carrying curly is not only AMAZING, but it's many times easier to keep nice. I'm not sure it's as dominant as they think it is from our experience, but it's a useful thing to know http://www.vetgen.com/ordertests.aspx?id=Havanese From what we've seen, I think Havanese fur has some of it's own, unique rules.

First will be Nina before the clip. Second will be the first pass up the back. You go against the grain (back to front of the dog) on the body. You have to keep the skin stretched tight so it doesn't bunch up in front of the clippers. Two pairs of hands makes it MUCH easier.

On the legs, if you cut them against the grain, the legs will look too tapered and end up looking too much like a clipped poodle. Legs are clipped with the clippers going down the leg. A couple of the pictures show a leg after the clippers have done most of the work.

Pam keeps the hair on the head longer. She gets a tight grip between two fingers, and cuts with scissors-much like cutting a person's hair. Hair on the ears and tail is kept the longest, and only cut with scissors by eye.

I'll try to get an after pic sometime later.

The blade Pam uses on Nina is a no.4 skip-tooth.

Even after doing the best you can with the clippers before the bath, after the bath, and under the dryer, there will be a lot of work left to trim long curls (using both clippers and scissors) that have unrolled. Ideally, you'd like to clip the hair when it's clean, but in this case, the hair was so matted that a comb wouldn't go through it. If one is washed in that condition, you can felt the mats, and they will even make clipping more difficult. Clipping a dirty dog greatly shortens the life of sharp clipper blades.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Nina is a cutie pie. I also like the length before the cut. And you can sure see the curls. Her head hair does look a lot like Zoeys 
I just spent hours on Zoey and I'm still not finished. I had all the tangles out and really conditioned her. Its like when she starts drying her hole under coat goes in to that felting. She is going threw a second coat change. She is about a year and a half old and has had two heat cycles. I keep thinking its drying at different rates and shrinking more. Right now I can really see the under coat from the top. I couldn't tell the difference a few months back. She has a long outer coat and the under coat is only about 2 and a half inches. Some is even shorter. Its very soft and not as wavy as her top . Any way I'm still confused I wouldn't mind if she is curly. I would get her trimmed up to look like Nina 
Thank you for sharing the photos. Pam is a awesome groomer!


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

Suzi said:


> I think its been a process and the top show dogs have been breed into them a much straiter silkier coat. If you look at show dogs 12 years ago they look more like the slightly wavy natural coat stated in the standard.


Aha; then Camellia is an old-fashioned girl; her full coat is wavy, though it also has a somewhat silky feel to it, but clipped down, as it grows in, it's very curly!

I'm just getting some pictures of her clipped-down coat, now about six weeks after clipping - very curly! Will post pics later, once I get them put together.

Sun, 18 Mar 2012 14:45:52 (PDT)


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

atsilvers27 said:


> I agree with Karen. Well groomed show dogs have had their hair stretch dried and sometimes even flat-ironed. Some show havs actually have an incorrect FRIZZY coat, but you wouldn't know it with all the product and such to get the coat flat.
> 
> Suzi, without feeling her coat and working with it, it's a little difficult to tell for sure, but her hair looks similar to my Hanna's if I just let her air dry. Her hair is naturally wavy and will dry that way if it's not blow dried. Hanna's hair is not quite silky but not quite cottony either. It's got a lot of texture and body, but is light and airy at the same time.
> 
> ...


Wow, thanks for your comments and observations on the differences between European and Stateside attitudes! I don't know how closely we Canadians resemble you in the U.S., but I think it's pretty close.

My groomer takes three hours to bathe, blow-dry and clip Camellia - and the last couple of those has a LOT of scissoring, especially on the legs. She likes to make a PERFECT job of it. I truly ADORE my groomer!

Camellia stands up to the long sessions very well, too, as my groomer also always takes excellent care of the dogs she's grooming. I trust her to the hilt!

You should really like this: she really likes CM. So I don't talk about CM with her! As you see, I adore her anyway! - and so does Camellia!

Sun, 18 Mar 2012 14:51:30 (PDT)


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

I can't really tell from the pictures, Tom, but to me, Nina looks even more curly than Camellia! I'll dig out some back photos, too; some from 2010, before Camellia first went to my groomer (she was in full coat), some from 2010 and 2011, when we clipped her down almost to the skin (hot summer), and then a few from very recently, such as today, with her six-week-grown in since a longer, winter-clip.

Sun, 18 Mar 2012 15:01:20 (PDT)


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## Charleysmom (Dec 6, 2011)

I didn't know havanese can be so curly. She almost looks as curly as my miniature poodle Molly was.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

She probably is as curly as a poodle. Both her parents each carried one copy of curly, and she got one from each parent. That was before Vetgen had the DNA test for coat type. It's not possible for Cooper to have a curly coat. His Sire, Posh, doesn't carry for curly. He should have a great coat.


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## curly_DC (Nov 27, 2011)

Tom: I was wondering if you could post the "after" photo of Nina? The "before" and "after" photos next to each other? Thank you.


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## rokipiki (Oct 15, 2010)

atsilvers27 said:


> I agree with Karen. Well groomed show dogs have had their hair stretch dried and sometimes even flat-ironed. Some show havs actually have an incorrect FRIZZY coat, but you wouldn't know it with all the product and such to get the coat flat.
> 
> Suzi, without feeling her coat and working with it, it's a little difficult to tell for sure, but her hair looks similar to my Hanna's if I just let her air dry. Her hair is naturally wavy and will dry that way if it's not blow dried. Hanna's hair is not quite silky but not quite cottony either. It's got a lot of texture and body, but is light and airy at the same time.
> 
> ...


I assure you that european hav counteparts are bathed as often as their US relatives. Maybe even more because a lot of european havs live in big cities which could be quite dirty. 
But standards for showing a havanese in most european kennel clubs are different from US standards. Hav must look NATURAL, and use of some styling products is absolutely forbiden if you don't want to get dog disqualified. For example, hair sprays are a no no and judges either disqualify dog or give lesser mark if they feel that you put some kind of gel or hairspray to keep coat in perfect shape. Year ago I was on a show with Roki and one beautifull hav got disqualifiead because he was "overgroomed" and Roki who looked wavy and fluffy (and a bit untidy) got all excelent marks. 
There is also big difference in judging standards - judges from Austria, Italy or Germany like bigger and sturdier havs and those from UK and Ireland like smaller ones. On two day show your dog can get quite different marks. Frist day there is italina judge and you get good marks and all titles. The other day the judge from UK asks you what are you doing here with that dog and gives you poor marks. But I think that all that difference makes life interesting!
And one more thing - about Friday 5 PM! I attended seminar on American University in Washington DC when I lived there. The main topic was understanding American culture and life. Our lecturer told us that European work to live and Americans live to work. He also told us that one of first question Americans ask people when they meet each other is - what do you do? That's because, he told us, american culture defines a person with what he does! On the other side most Europeans put a strict borderline between work and that part of life that is not work. So Friday 5 PM IS that border and people here are not willin to tear it down.


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

*European / American / differences*

Oh, rokipiki, that was a fascinating post! Thanks!

I THINK I have a picture of Camellia's wavy coat before she was first clipped down; will try to find it and post it here. Then also, I did take pictures of her curly-coat on 18 March (2012), when I last posted in this thread, and I got one that does show her curls. I don't think she's nearly as curly as Nina!

Her next clip-down by the groomer is next Tuesday. We'll leave the coat a bit longer than we do in full summer, as weather here can be quite chilly at times.

I LIKE the idea of showing Havanese in natural coat. I use product on Camellia, but it doesn't visibly affect the coat, once the spray distributes; the shampoo and spray replace a missing skin barrier (which protects against environmental allergies). Camellia is a big Havanese, too - bigger than any breed standard I'm aware of; she's 8.7 Kg (about 19 pounds).

And - she's spayed, so can only show in Rally or Agility or something like that; not in the breed ring!

Now let's see what pictures I can find.

Got them! The first is Camellia just over two weeks after she became my dog, taken by DogDaddy George, on 3 Sept. 2010. The second is the following January (4 January 2011), not very long after a clip-down. The third, I took specifically to show the curls, this past Sunday, 18 March (2012).

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 09:51:35 (PDT)


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

*Camellia's pictures - additional remarks*

When Camellia came to me, her front legs and some other places had heavy orange stains, apparently from her persistent licking. These stains took about six months to disappear, as she licked less, then less, then more less ;-)

She still licks occasionally, but only normal self-grooming. The first picture in my just-previous post shows some of the orange stain.

Compare with Camellia as she was on the day of her arrival:

http://www.coherentdog.org/camjrn01.php

After I took that picture, I trimmed her bangs to keep them out of her eyes, and her tail, too, to keep it from brushing the ground and picking up all the junk that lies around on the ground! I also trimmed the hair on her feet. Apart from that, she had no grooming apart from daily brushing till she got her first clip-down by my fabulous professional groomer, on 29 September, 2010.

Camellia weighed 7.7 Kg (about 17 pounds) when she first came to me, and gradually put on weight, till now, she's a stable 8.7 Kg (about 19 pounds). My vets and groomer like her at this weight.

In the second picture in my just-previous post, I think she weighed about 8.0 Kg, but I'd have to FIND and check my journals to make sure!

In the third picture, she weighs 8.7 Kg (about 19 pounds).

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 10:08:22 (PDT)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

What a pretty girl Camellia is!

Do you think that some of her leg-licking might also have been stress on top of allergies?


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

curly_DC said:


> Tom: I was wondering if you could post the "after" photo of Nina? The "before" and "after" photos next to each other? Thank you.


I'll try to take an after shot next time. Pam finished her the next day while I was out, and she was gone when I got back.


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

*leg-licking - stress!*



krandall said:


> What a pretty girl Camellia is!
> 
> Do you think that some of her leg-licking might also have been stress on top of allergies?


Hi Karen,

I think the leg-licking was mostly stress, as the allergic dermatitis didn't appear full-scale till about February, 2011, when Camellia began reverse-sneezing for the first time (or, "shuffing," as I call it - for "stress-huffiing").

She was probably a bit itchy at the time, but not very, as she wasn't scratching a lot, either - just licking.

All that hair helped protect Camellia against lick granulomas, THANK GOODNESS! She did open one tiny wound one time, but it healed up rather quickly and nicely.

In the first six months she was mine, Camellia licked those legs less and less, and the orange stains gradually disappeared on their own. Whew! relief!

Thanks for thinking she's pretty! Of course, I think so, too!

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 17:35:44 (PDT)


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

Here are a few pics of my curly guy- I groom him myself....


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

I think he's curlier than Camellia. I love it that you groom him yourself. Wish I could do that! My back won't handle grooming, though. Baths are my limit, in a tub where my back isn't burdened.

I don't have a bathtub in my "new" (old) place, and when my vet prescribed weekly baths for Camellia with a special shampoo to replace her missing skin barrier, I was desperate - finally, with the help of DogDaddy George, I figured it out - put a laundry tub in my shower stall (see attachment).

I leave the tub in there, and stand in the tiny remaining space to shower myself!

I'm sitting on your web site at the moment - is that the available boy you have? He is absolutely gorgeous! If I could afford to support more than one dog, I'd take him in an instant!

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 19:10:54 (PDT)


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Carol I don't see where you find the room to fit around the tub. I have thought about doing the exact same thing. My sister wont let me bath the sisters in her really deep large kitchen sink. my back cant handle a tub . Her laundry room sink is all I have and its very small. I find it difficult not to splash water all over the place. I think Zoeys coat is similar to Camellia's . I am very close to buying a clipper and giving it a try. I think curly haired havanese look cute short.
Kathie your curly guy is adorable you do a fantastic job with his cut! He is a chocolate?


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## angiern2004 (Apr 24, 2011)

MopTop Havanese said:


> Here are a few pics of my curly guy- I groom him myself....


Awwww, sweet Rolo. <3


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Before I built the dog room, we used to use a utility sink to bath the dogs in too. I bolted extensions to the legs using 2x4's so there was no bending over to handle the dog. I learned from that when I installed our current dog washing sink, and have it at the level where your hands can reach all the way to the bottom of the sink without bending over. You can buy longer risers for the faucet, and an extension between the tailpiece and trap for the drain if you raise the utility sink.


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

Suzi said:


> Carol I don't see where you find the room to fit around the tub. I have thought about doing the exact same thing. My sister wont let me bath the sisters in her really deep large kitchen sink. my back cant handle a tub . Her laundry room sink is all I have and its very small. I find it difficult not to splash water all over the place. I think Zoeys coat is similar to Camellia's . I am very close to buying a clipper and giving it a try. I think curly haired havanese look cute short.
> Kathie your curly guy is adorable you do a fantastic job with his cut! He is a chocolate?


Suzi - I am small and scrawny! Even so, it IS a very tight fit for me in that shower with the tub in there as well. But I manage. I have no place to hang the shower wand so i can stand under it in that tiny space; maybe I'll figure something out one of these days - so I keep having to turn the water off, soaping up, and turning the water back on again to rinse. One time I hoisted first one leg, then the other, in to the tub, but the space is SO tight that I found that painful for my hips, so I stopped doing that.

It's a very inefficient way to take a shower! I just have to put up with it - or get up the courage and wrestling strength to get the tub out of the shower - and then put it back in afterwards. I have to take at least two legs off the tub to maneuver it in and out of the stall.

Sorry your sister won't let you use the kitchen sink, as it sounds quite ideal.

Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:58:03 (PDT)


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