# Strange behavior help needed



## PinkMellow (Aug 23, 2018)

I’m not sure what to call this behavior. 90% of the time little Stella is a perfect angel who is fairly gentle aside from normal puppy mouthing. But she has these periods where she gets....grumpy? She starts to growl a lot, guards her toys (has tried to bite me if I reach for them), plays with her toys very aggressively (death shaking her head like a crocodile) and if she gets a hold of my arm/hand, bites down MUCH harder than usual and tries to shake her head too! While growling! If she were an adult I’m pretty sure it would draw blood!

I find these time periods very concerning and don’t understand what triggers them or what they are really. Here’s how I respond to it. If she starts to guard her toys, I simply stop playing with her. If she bites me very hard or grabs on and starts shaking her head, I make a loud yelp noise that makes her stop and tilt her head. If this doesn’t work I give her a toy instead and that seems to help redirect this spontaneous aggression. 

Does anyone know what this is? Am I handling this ok? Again this is a deeply concerning behavior to me that I would not want to see her carry into adulthood.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

It sounds like she is getting over-stimulated at times. While your approach isn’t wrong, I would disengage completely. Either you move away from her, or put her in her crate or expen until she calms down. 

I don’t think you need to worry over much about the behavior continuing into adulthood. She is a very young puppy, doing young puppy stuff. And you are handling things in a level-headed, kind but firm way.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Ricky is 4 1/2 years old. Growling is still part of his play mode, whether with other dogs, with his Momi and Popi, or just by himself. I wouldn't call it an angry growl, more like a determined expressive growl. At least once a day he will RLH around the house growling at nothing in particular for ten minutes or less. I don't know what is stimulating him, certainly nothing we are doing. I think he just has some excess energy he needs to burn off. No harm, no foul. At other times he will pick up a favorite stuffed toy and shake the living daylights out of it. He shakes so hard we think he is scrambling his brains and them he throws his head back and tosses the toy into the air.............and then starts the routine all over again, only running around the house, growling with the toy in his mouth shaking his head, trying to get us to chase him. He is definitely having fun! He is obviously wanting some attention from us. So again, no harm, no foul, he is just expressing his needs for interaction with us. Right now, it is 8:30 pm and Ricky is laying quietly beside me fast asleep, so he has his quiet times too!

Regarding biting, I think you are doing the right thing. The other stuff I would consider natural and healthy based on our experience.

Ricky's Popi


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

I agree with Karen - sounds like being over-stimulated to me. I don't know that he'll outgrow it (Perry is 2 1/2 and still does it) but he will probably learn to direct it better (i.e. not biting you). When Perry does it, if he's just running around and 'killing' his toys I let him go, but if he starts getting really over the top I will sometimes hold him/ squeeze him (think Temple Grandin's pressure technique or what a thunder shirt does), not petting or talking to him, just gentle pressure around him until he calms down (breath slows, muscles relax) - don't know if that's really the right thing to do, but it works for us. Otherwise I'll stick him in his crate for a few minutes to decompress, if his crate is handy.

It is different than his normal zoomies (or referred to as RLH) - though some of the behaviours look the same, but the zoomies he gets pretty much every day around 8:30/9pm


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## PinkMellow (Aug 23, 2018)

Thank you so much everyone that makes me feel a lot better. Over stimulation is more comforting to me than it being outright aggression. I will try out avoiding interaction completely next time she gets like that to see how it goes!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I remember the same thing really freaked me out! My husband had puppies growing up and told me it was normal and that we just needed to redirect it, but it worried me until I knew how to manage it. For a while he would get really worked up when my husband got home from work and started playing with him. He was super excited and my husband is a little more wild in play anyway. My husband would stop playing with him for a minute, get him to sit and focus on a couple of commands, and then we would run him back and forth down the hall until he was tired. He hardly ever does it anymore, but now when it comes up it’s usually exercise related.


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## cishepard (Apr 8, 2018)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I remember the same thing really freaked me out! My husband had puppies growing up and told me it was normal and that we just needed to redirect it, but it worried me until I knew how to manage it. For a while he would get really worked up when my husband got home from work and started playing with him. He was super excited and my husband is a little more wild in play anyway. My husband would stop playing with him for a minute, get him to sit and focus on a couple of commands, and then we would run him back and forth down the hall until he was tired. He hardly ever does it anymore, but now when it comes up it's usually exercise related.


To my way of thinking, this is exactly what should happen. The term "over stimulated' is a human construct and nothing to do with a puppy that has energy to burn and an instinct to play, wrestle and bite with other puppies and parent dogs (which we deny them at a young age). They need this to be balanced and fulfilled. 
Many people seem to want their puppies to act like adults way too soon ... play with your babies! Rough house, tug, teach gentle biting (wear a glove or wrap a towel on your arm) and add in frequent obedience commands, resuming play as the "reward". Let them have fun. Get them tired. In the first year, this might mean many times a day! This kind of play will not result in aggression, in fact it fosters bonding. They will outgrow the need as they mature. 
In my opinion, constantly shutting them down, ignoring them or crating them when they have energy and excitement could easily result in frustration and associated negative behaviours.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Ricky is 4 1/2 years old. Growling is still part of his play mode, whether with other dogs, with his Momi and Popi, or just by himself. I wouldn't call it an angry growl, more like a determined expressive growl. At least once a day he will RLH around the house growling at nothing in particular for ten minutes or less. I don't know what is stimulating him, certainly nothing we are doing. I think he just has some excess energy he needs to burn off. No harm, no foul. At other times he will pick up a favorite stuffed toy and shake the living daylights out of it. He shakes so hard we think he is scrambling his brains and them he throws his head back and tosses the toy into the air.............and then starts the routine all over again, only running around the house, growling with the toy in his mouth shaking his head, trying to get us to chase him. He is definitely having fun! He is obviously wanting some attention from us. So again, no harm, no foul, he is just expressing his needs for interaction with us. Right now, it is 8:30 pm and Ricky is laying quietly beside me fast asleep, so he has his quiet times too!
> 
> Regarding biting, I think you are doing the right thing. The other stuff I would consider natural and healthy based on our experience.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


Yes, I agree. I was mostly talking about the biting... which tends to be a phase... or some of what sounds like it might be mild resource guarding. But two of mine growl in play, and one plays "bitey" with my hand. (I pretend my hand is a mouth and "snap" toward her face, and she "snaps" back. But she is VERY careful with her teeth, and NEVER bites down, even if we connect. It's all just a game. ...and, yes, Kodi is a "vicious toy killer" too. It's normal play behavior.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

PinkMellow said:


> Thank you so much everyone that makes me feel a lot better. Over stimulation is more comforting to me than it being outright aggression. I will try out avoiding interaction completely next time she gets like that to see how it goes!


Overt aggression is very rare in a young puppy. It CAN happen, but is really, really rare.


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## PinkMellow (Aug 23, 2018)

cishepard said:


> EvaE1izabeth said:
> 
> 
> > I remember the same thing really freaked me out! My husband had puppies growing up and told me it was normal and that we just needed to redirect it, but it worried me until I knew how to manage it. For a while he would get really worked up when my husband got home from work and started playing with him. He was super excited and my husband is a little more wild in play anyway. My husband would stop playing with him for a minute, get him to sit and focus on a couple of commands, and then we would run him back and forth down the hall until he was tired. He hardly ever does it anymore, but now when it comes up it's usually exercise related.
> ...


I would never put her in the kennel for punishment. We made that mistake w our last dog and it made her hate her kennel her whole puppyhood. Took years to undo that. Also no constant ignoring I usually just pause for a few seconds &#128578; I keep things short & fast paced with puppy as I know they are like a baby.

I am glad to know though that she will likely grow out of this.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

cishepard said:


> To my way of thinking, this is exactly what should happen. The term "over stimulated' is a human construct and nothing to do with a puppy that has energy to burn and an instinct to play, wrestle and bite with other puppies and parent dogs (which we deny them at a young age). They need this to be balanced and fulfilled.
> Many people seem to want their puppies to act like adults way too soon ... play with your babies! Rough house, tug, teach gentle biting (wear a glove or wrap a towel on your arm) and add in frequent obedience commands, resuming play as the "reward". Let them have fun. Get them tired. In the first year, this might mean many times a day! This kind of play will not result in aggression, in fact it fosters bonding. They will outgrow the need as they mature.
> In my opinion, constantly shutting them down, ignoring them or crating them when they have energy and excitement could easily result in frustration and associated negative behaviours.


I disagree. Puppies (AND adult dogs) can CERTAINLY become over stimulated for a number of reasons. ("over threshold" is another name for it). Their brain is pretty much unavailable at those times. That is COMPLETELY different from rambunctious, energetic play behavior. Of course energetic play is fine, and should be encouraged. We still encourage it in our 9 year old dog, let alone a puppy.

I never suggested a regimented, "no play" type approach, nor would I. IMO, training (other than household manners) should ALWAYS be viewed as "play" by the dog. I want my dogs to leap joyously out of bed if I suggest a training session.

Breaking off interaction with a puppy for just a few seconds when they get too rough is not a hardship, nor does it shut the puppy down. It makes a smart puppy THINK, and realize that there are consequences for his actions. A natural consequence, whether he is playing with a human or another dog, is that if he's too rough, the other party isn't going to want to play anymore.

If a puppy is SO over the top that they can't think straight, and it DOES happen to puppies, just as it happens to human children, he needs a calm, sympathetic NON PUNITIVE person to help him get himself back under control. If the means a few seconds to a couple of minutes to settle down in the expensive, it is not going to dampen his spirit in the least. It will just help him get his brain back in order for more fun.

Of course none of us were there and saw what happened with this puppy, and we all may have read her words and interpreted the puppy's actions differently. If there is a REAL "behavior problem" with this puppy, she shouldn't be looking for advice on the internet, but should be calling in the eyes-on advice of a good local trainer.

But I don't think that's what's going on here. I think most of us agree that this is a case of a very young puppy being a puppy. She will mostly grow out of the behavior, no matter what the owner does. In the mean time, she can try the different approaches in this thread and see what works best for her in learning to manage her puppy.


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## Tux's Mom (May 24, 2016)

Tux is a play growler and loves to soft bite when playing. He is 2 1/2 years old. He was a duplicate of how you describe Stella. It's all a part of genetically/instinctively preparing to survive. ALL dogs pick up on energy from a potential adversary or friend. Body language and energy is important with dogs since there is no verbal communication other than sound signals. When Tux gets over excited, I lay down on the floor, speak slowly and softly, and avoid putting my hands where he could reach them. I speak in a soft voice when he would bite a little too hard and say calmly, "no teeth". Use whatever expression you want, but be consistent, be calm. Then use soft praise voice when you get the reaction or calming you want to see. It takes consistency, but the calming thing works as they get more mature. When energy needs to be expelled (usually several times a day in spurts) and they want to use you as a plaything, you say, "Go get .................." (favorite toy). If they don't get it, you go get it to show that's the name of the toy. (another way to teach language.) Then toss, or chase or whatever to wear them out in a fun way. Just keep your own energy, frustration, or anxiety about their behavior on as low a key as you can when you want to regain or keep control of the situation. Praise EVERY time it is earned.....always. The key to a Havanese, is they love to see you happy and proud of them....and they can scare easily. (avoid that at all cost)


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I call this behavior "play." I've seen it with a lot of puppies and dogs. There's no harm in it - unless she thinks your hand/arm is one of her toys (because it's right smack in the pile). 

YOU SAID ..."If she starts to guard her toys, I simply stop playing with her. If she bites me very hard or grabs on and starts shaking her head, I make a loud yelp noise that makes her stop and tilt her head. If this doesn’t work I give her a toy instead and that seems to help redirect this spontaneous aggression "

First of all, keep your hand out of the pile of her toys! She's busy vanquishing the "army." This is not the right time to play with her. If your hand is close enough for her to think she must vanquish it too, yelp *before* she bites very hard and immediately remove your hand (which shouldn't be in the pile in the first place). You've effectively interrupted the "war" for a moment. Please don't ever reinforce her for biting your hand by giving her a toy. Just walk away.Really, that's all that's going on. It's a kind of play that you're misinterpreting as aggression.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Signs of too-intense play include prolonged deep growling, a fixed gaze and stiff posture, and aggression that is situational or in response to a particular stimulus.


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## PinkMellow (Aug 23, 2018)

davetgabby said:


> I call this behavior "play." I've seen it with a lot of puppies and dogs. There's no harm in it - unless she thinks your hand/arm is one of her toys (because it's right smack in the pile).
> 
> YOU SAID ..."If she starts to guard her toys, I simply stop playing with her. If she bites me very hard or grabs on and starts shaking her head, I make a loud yelp noise that makes her stop and tilt her head. If this doesn't work I give her a toy instead and that seems to help redirect this spontaneous aggression "
> 
> First of all, keep your hand out of the pile of her toys! She's busy vanquishing the "army." This is not the right time to play with her. If your hand is close enough for her to think she must vanquish it too, yelp *before* she bites very hard and immediately remove your hand (which shouldn't be in the pile in the first place). You've effectively interrupted the "war" for a moment. Please don't ever reinforce her for biting your hand by giving her a toy. Just walk away.Really, that's all that's going on. It's a kind of play that you're misinterpreting as aggression.


My hand wasn't in a pile of toys &#128517; I'll be sitting by her on the ground with a toy there and all of a sudden she starts growling at me or we'll be playing normally with the toy and then she starts attacking my hand and biting way too hard/more so than her normal play biting and shaking her head.

I think everyone has given pretty good advice on this thread though so I'm not confused/as concerned about it anymore


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

*over stimulated*



krandall said:


> I disagree. Puppies (AND adult dogs) can CERTAINLY become over stimulated for a number of reasons. ("over threshold" is another name for it). Their brain is pretty much unavailable at those times. That is COMPLETELY different from rambunctious, energetic play behavior. Of course energetic play is fine, and should be encouraged. We still encourage it in our 9 year old dog, let alone a puppy.
> 
> I never suggested a regimented, "no play" type approach, nor would I. IMO, training (other than household manners) should ALWAYS be viewed as "play" by the dog. I want my dogs to leap joyously out of bed if I suggest a training session.
> 
> ...


I completely agree. Even at 2 1/2, Perry can get this way. It is very different from his zoomies or his very energetic play (though it can start as a result of that play). It's not just getting rough - he does play that way. What I consider over stimulated or over threshold for him has a very different look and feel. His body gets really tense if I pick him up (if he's just playing hard then when I pick him up mid play he'll be squirming and loose), his breath is fast, he's probably starting and his growl is different (and trust me he growls a LOT when we're playing so I know the difference). I hold him, put light pressure on his body (squeezing sounds wrong) and just breath with him til his breathing slows down and he starts looking around, then we're ready to play again.

Also agree - that is likely not what she's dealing with - but just to say it does happen. It's not a huge deal but it's important to recognize the difference between enthusiastic playing and this.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> I completely agree. Even at 2 1/2, Perry can get this way. It is very different from his zoomies or his very energetic play (though it can start as a result of that play). It's not just getting rough - he does play that way. What I consider over stimulated or over threshold for him has a very different look and feel. His body gets really tense if I pick him up (if he's just playing hard then when I pick him up mid play he'll be squirming and loose), his breath is fast, he's probably starting and his growl is different (and trust me he growls a LOT when we're playing so I know the difference). I hold him, put light pressure on his body (squeezing sounds wrong) and just breath with him til his breathing slows down and he starts looking around, then we're ready to play again.
> 
> Also agree - that is likely not what she's dealing with - but just to say it does happen. It's not a huge deal but it's important to recognize the difference between enthusiastic playing and this.


You often see this in competition... especially in agility, but occasionally in obedience too. A dog will run off from the task at hand and do "zoomies". Some people interpret this as the dog having "such a good time", or "blowing the handler off to do what he wants". MOST if the time, it is neither of these things. It is a dog over-threshold... sometimes from excitement, but more often, if you observe closely, there is a very stressy feel to the behavior. Dog's don't WANT to feel that way. And it's WAY different in character than a good game of RLH.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> You often see this in competition... especially in agility, but occasionally in obedience too. A dog will run off from the task at hand and do "zoomies". Some people interpret this as the dog having "such a good time", or "blowing the handler off to do what he wants". MOST if the time, it is neither of these things. It is a dog over-threshold... sometimes from excitement,


I've told this story, here on HF, before. When Ricky was about 18 months old we entered our first obedience competition. He wasn't perfect but he did great for a first-timer. At the end of his trial he was off-leash and the judge said we were done. Then I, me, Popi, made a huge rookie mistake............I said, "okay" to release Ricky, which meant to Ricky he was free to play! :frusty: He ran out of the ring into an adjacent ring where that handler had just thrown a wooden prop for her dog, a big Lab, to retrieve. Ricky beat the other dog to it and zoomied around the perimeter of the ring TWICE, growling, to the laughter of the crowd watching. The Lab just watched totally confused! He then threw the prop into the air and ran out of the ring and started to visit every dog that was waiting to compete. I was mortified and embarrassed. :redface: He wouldn't respond to my "come" command. The other handler was furious and I don't blame her! :kev: When I was finally able to corral him, I didn't scold him, no, but he didn't get any treats either!

It appeared to me that Ricky was having fun, me? not so much! Maybe he was stressed or more likely over-stimulated and excited, I'm not sure. I can tell you I was stressed, but I learned a valuable lesson that day.................ALWAYS PUT THE LEASH BACK ON BEFORE RELEASING RICKY AT A COMPETITION!!!!!!! :nono:

Ricky's Popi


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

PinkMellow said:


> My hand wasn't in a pile of toys &#128517; I'll be sitting by her on the ground with a toy there and all of a sudden she starts growling at me or we'll be playing normally with the toy and then she starts attacking my hand and biting way too hard/more so than her normal play biting and shaking her head.
> 
> I think everyone has given pretty good advice on this thread though so I'm not confused/as concerned about it anymore


sorry for misinterpreting, but the only thing wrong here that I can see is you haven't taught her bite inhibition. here is a good article https://www.dogstardaily.com/training/teaching-bite-inhibition


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I've told this story, here on HF, before. When Ricky was about 18 months old we entered our first obedience competition. He wasn't perfect but he did great for a first-timer. At the end of his trial he was off-leash and the judge said we were done. Then I, me, Popi, made a huge rookie mistake............I said, "okay" to release Ricky, which meant to Ricky he was free to play! :frusty: He ran out of the ring into an adjacent ring where that handler had just thrown a wooden prop for her dog, a big Lab, to retrieve. Ricky beat the other dog to it and zoomied around the perimeter of the ring TWICE, growling, to the laughter of the crowd watching. The Lab just watched totally confused! He then threw the prop into the air and ran out of the ring and started to visit every dog that was waiting to compete. I was mortified and embarrassed. :redface: He wouldn't respond to my "come" command. The other handler was furious and I don't blame her! :kev: When I was finally able to corral him, I didn't scold him, no, but he didn't get any treats either!
> 
> It appeared to me that Ricky was having fun, me? not so much! Maybe he was stressed or more likely over-stimulated and excited, I'm not sure. I can tell you I was stressed, but I learned a valuable lesson that day.................ALWAYS PUT THE LEASH BACK ON BEFORE RELEASING RICKY AT A COMPETITION!!!!!!! :nono:
> 
> Ricky's Popi


I DO remember that story, and I DO think that was different. You "released" Ricky, even though it wasn't your intention, and he just went to play with friends, which I KNOW is one of his favorite things!!! That's really pretty different than those who leave their owner DURING a run and just take off. THAT is usually stress.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> sorry for misinterpreting, but the only thing wrong here that I can see is you haven't taught her bite inhibition. here is a good article https://www.dogstardaily.com/training/teaching-bite-inhibition


And if you EVER want good, professional information about an issue, Dave is the guy who can almost ALWAYS put his hands on it! I truly don't know how he keeps all these articles straight!!!


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## PinkMellow (Aug 23, 2018)

Thanks so much for feedback guys! She is getting much better about the biting thing. Today when I yelped she immediately went to go play with a toy instead. (Though she did growl when I yelped as if to say “oh come on ya big baby!”)


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

I have to say that this describes my Zoey to a T as a pup. She has developed into my one in a million heart dog. She is so expressive, comes to me and looks at me and yips when her canine house mate is doing something wrong, rests on the back of the couch next to my head or next to my thigh on the seat of the couch and emits a gruff little bark when a horse or dog is onscreen and her play growls are household music. 

She is a talker and makes different sounds to express different things and when we were at the vet and I had her crated next to me in the floor to avoid germs, she started a begging conversation that had everyone in the vet's office smiling and laughing. I was so sorry they had silent canines.

I am so eternally glad I did not try to extinguish any early behaviors that brought her into becoming the expressive dog she is today.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Marni said:


> She is a talker and makes different sounds to express different things and when we were at the vet and I had her crated next to me in the floor to avoid germs, she started a begging conversation that had everyone in the vet's office smiling and laughing. I was so sorry they had silent canines.


Ricky does that too. He has a whole vocabulary of squeaks, groans, growls, yips, yaps, squeals, whines, and gurgles and each have a different meaning. He has been very patient in teaching us what each means. When he has happy excitement he makes hoops and hollers that our daughters call his "monkey sounds." He sounds for all the world like an excited Chimp. Ricky is also our doorbell. He has one type of alarm bark when a stranger is at the door. He has yet another type of excited bark when there is someone he knows is there - "hurry and open the door, my most favorite person in the whole world has come to visit".........and it turns out to be the FedEX person! Momi is amazed at how dogs can communicate to their humans in a meaningful way. She said she always thought that people made that kind of stuff up, but she is a believer now!

Ricky's Popi


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## Ltartof (Sep 17, 2018)

Our guy is a little over a year old, and still does that "attack" on occasion. He has a very good friend (dog) and they play like that, making terrible fighting noises and chasing each other around like whirlwinds. I think sometimes he "forgets" that I am not his dog friend, and does that to me. A very firm no, sometimes with a gentle scruff, and he comes to his sense and apologizes... !


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

PinkMellow said:


> I would never put her in the kennel for punishment. We made that mistake w our last dog and it made her hate her kennel her whole puppyhood. Took years to undo that. Also no constant ignoring I usually just pause for a few seconds &#128578; I keep things short & fast paced with puppy as I know they are like a baby.
> 
> I am glad to know though that she will likely grow out of this.


Putting a puppy in time out for 10-seconds or a couple of minutes I found to be very helpful in redirecting an excited young puppy. Especially, when they still have those sharp puppy teeth and are learning how to control themselves. Our ex-pen was located in a family-kitchen area where the family hung out and there were times the only way to get control was for Patti to have a brief time out.

Patti is now l.5 years old and a couple of times a day she'll turn into a Zombie Banshee and zoom around the house at 100 mph, jumping on and off furniture, running up and down the stairs. She doesn't do this every day but it's often. We use to think she was playing but figured out she does this when she's tired and ready to lay down. Now we just watch in awww! as the speed demon dashes about, tires and lays down.

Patti will sometimes become overly aggressive when she wants to play. At those times we start giving the command: Down! Once down she quickly calms herself. And, I've occasionally put in her crate for a few minutes to get her attention. Learning the Down Command takes some training and is helpful when they're older and they need to Settle.

As she matures she won't have so much puppy-energy and will calm down.


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## CaroleG (Aug 13, 2016)

I agree with disengaging.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

I agree that putting puppy in a short time out to chill when they are nipping at people is a good idea. I use the ex pen, not a crate though. And I’m not admonishing him, just removing him from a situation that’s escalating. And puppies DEFINITELY get overstimulated and overtired. Play is absolutely great BUT puppies need a LOT of sleep. I discovered Oliver would get way more hyper and wired when he wasn’t getting sufficient naps. Just like a kid. 

It’s normal, though. Ours seems to be nipping longer than usual but I’ve discovered that calling him to me, telling him to sit and stay, and giving him a treat stops biting. It’s a form of redirection. And getting him to focus.


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