# Too much protein??



## Mtk Ii (Mar 20, 2021)

Alcibides said:


> I think/hope he may be losing a little weight (which the Vet said he needed to) but I was feeding him piles of food before (a combination of wellness wet and dry and shredded boiled chicken (topped with probiotics) about two cups in all daily-but he didn't eat much or only occasionally finished a meal). It feels so little to give him a little over a half a cup twice a day (to make 1 and a quarter cup in all which is what they recommend for 22 pounds). I've eliminated snacks but have ordered some of Orijin 5 calorie treats which I thought I might add daily. It's great and entirely novel to see him finishing his meals. And he seems more active and adorable than ever.


We cook for our 2 Havanese, always have. They are 2 & 3. The Boy is 12.4 the girl is 11.4. Last Vet visit the Dr. Said "what can I say, these dogs are just really healthy, no plaque nothing, what do you do. I said we have been cooking for our pups since the oldest one got sick fro tga dog Park. We cook them.6 lbs of chicken thighs, 16 oz chicken hearts,28 oz chicken gizzards, 16oz chicken liver. 4 cups of quinoa cooked in bone broth, 16 oz kale, 24 oz shitake mushrooms, 2 lbs carrots, 14oz asparagus, 32 oz canned pumpkin and a teaspoon of ginger. We put it 2 instant pots, we cook the quinoa separately and add the pumpkin at the end. Makes about 15 to 20 lbs do it about every 3 weeks. We put in in containers of about 3 cups and freeze. Lots of fun and doesn't take long once you get into the swing of it. We remove all the skin from the chicken before cooking.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Mtk Ii said:


> We cook for our 2 Havanese, always have. They are 2 & 3. The Boy is 12.4 the girl is 11.4. Last Vet visit the Dr. Said "what can I say, these dogs are just really healthy, no plaque nothing, what do you do. I said we have been cooking for our pups since the oldest one got sick fro tga dog Park. We cook them.6 lbs of chicken thighs, 16 oz chicken hearts,28 oz chicken gizzards, 16oz chicken liver. 4 cups of quinoa cooked in bone broth, 16 oz kale, 24 oz shitake mushrooms, 2 lbs carrots, 14oz asparagus, 32 oz canned pumpkin and a teaspoon of ginger. We put it 2 instant pots, we cook the quinoa separately and add the pumpkin at the end. Makes about 15 to 20 lbs do it about every 3 weeks. We put in in containers of about 3 cups and freeze. Lots of fun and doesn't take long once you get into the swing of it. We remove all the skin from the chicken before cooking.


Do the dogs consume the thigh bones as well? Are they softened in the Instant Pot?


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

Hi Mtk li, Is tga a heart issue? I started making homemade food before our oldest passed away recently. I'm slowly going back to homemade food and introducing raw at some point. I just finished another batch of chicken feet stock to mix with my beef bone broth. I was thinking of you Mudpuppymama while I was waving chicken feet around pretending they could talk😋 They also get chicken liver, gizzards and canned pumpkin with freeze dried raw treats for now. That's a good question Mudpuppymama.


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## Mtk Ii (Mar 20, 2021)

NEVER the bones. Once Instant pot is done 1 thigh bone falls right out. We never let our pups have the bones or skin. 
We also make our own Natural Peanut Butter and Quinoa treats easy and healthy.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Mtk Ii said:


> NEVER the bones. Once Instant pot is done 1 thigh bone falls right out. We never let our pups have the bones or skin.
> We also make our own Natural Peanut Butter and Quinoa treats easy and healthy.


Thanks. I was wondering where the calcium comes from in this diet? The chicken thighs have lots of calcium. Do you feel that adequate levels of calcium come out of the bones during the cooking process?


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## Mtk Ii (Mar 20, 2021)

Yes some comes from the bones cooking, but also from the Kale and the Quinoa. Also the Quinoa contains many of the micro nutrients needed for good health. Quinoa can be substituted for a starch, but is much better, for it contains most of the micro nutrients necessary for the pups, while avoiding the starch. Their treats also are made from natural unsalted peanut butter and Quinoa. It makes a great healthy crunchy treat that they never grow tired of and it supplies high levels of all the micro nutrients they need. If you introduce your pups to Quinoa slowly, so they don't upset their system there are really very few foods that are much better as far as a non meat food goes. I am not a nutritionist, I am simply stating the things that my Veterinarian told us when our pup got sick at the dog park and developed acute Pancreatitis, which he said is very common when their system gets upset. He suggested we put our pups on this diet and said they could stay on it for the rest of their lives. I asked then if the Quinoa that I had given him would have cause this and he said "no way, in fact it is one of the best foods you can introduce your dog to." We use it in the recipe that I posted and their treats, they love it. But as mentioned you must introduce them slowly with a little, then more, or you will up set their bowels, like anything new. The Quinoa is so much better for them than rice, which a lot of people feed their dogs but, the Quinoa acts just like a starch and is high in protein as well. Good for us too, but my pups like it more than I do. We buy it on-line in bulk.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Mtk Ii said:


> Yes some comes from the bones cooking, but also from the Kale and the Quinoa. Also the Quinoa contains many of the micro nutrients needed for good health. Quinoa can be substituted for a starch, but is much better, for it contains most of the micro nutrients necessary for the pups, while avoiding the starch. Their treats also are made from natural unsalted peanut butter and Quinoa. It makes a great healthy crunchy treat that they never grow tired of and it supplies high levels of all the micro nutrients they need. If you introduce your pups to Quinoa slowly, so they don't upset their system there are really very few foods that are much better as far as a non meat food goes. I am not a nutritionist, I am simply stating the things that my Veterinarian told us when our pup got sick at the dog park and developed acute Pancreatitis, which he said is very common when their system gets upset. He suggested we put our pups on this diet and said they could stay on it for the rest of their lives. I asked then if the Quinoa that I had given him would have cause this and he said "no way, in fact it is one of the best foods you can introduce your dog to." We use it in the recipe that I posted and their treats, they love it. But as mentioned you must introduce them slowly with a little, then more, or you will up set their bowels, like anything new. The Quinoa is so much better for them than rice, which a lot of people feed their dogs but, the Quinoa acts just like a starch and is high in protein as well. Good for us too, but my pups like it more than I do. We buy it on-line in bulk.


I feed a homemade raw diet where my dogs get their calcium from raw bones. I am not familiar with feeding a cooked diet, however my understanding is that if you are not feeding raw bones, you need to supplement with calcium somehow. I have never heard of a dog being able to get sufficient calcium from grains or veggies. I hope your vet is correct, especially if you are planning to feed this same diet for the rest of their life. A calcium deficiency will not show up overnight. It will take some time but it can definitely cause problems and they are serious. Sorry to be so blunt and maybe what your feeding is fine but it is definitely worth consulting with a nutritionist in my opinion. Or maybe ask your vet how he knows this diet is meeting their calcium requirement.


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

mudpuppymama said:


> I feed a homemade raw diet where my dogs get their calcium from raw bones. I am not familiar with feeding a cooked diet, however my understanding is that if you are not feeding raw bones, you need to supplement with calcium somehow. I have never heard of a dog being able to get sufficient calcium from grains or veggies. I hope your vet is correct, especially if you are planning to feed this same diet for the rest of their life. A calcium deficiency will not show up overnight. It will take some time but it can definitely cause problems and they are serious. Sorry to be so blunt and maybe what your feeding is fine but it is definitely worth consulting with a nutritionist in my opinion. Or maybe ask your vet how he knows this diet is meeting their calcium requirement.


What kind (animal) raw bones do you give Mia?


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

JaJa said:


> What kind (animal) raw bones do you give Mia?


I mainly feed chicken necks. I have also fed duck necks and occasionally feed ground whole prey (beef, turkey, pork) from My Pet Carnivore (contains bone) to get more bone variety into their diet. I feel necks are safest. They are soft and I dice them up in bite size nuggets to avoid anyone trying to gulp a chicken neck. The yorkie is a big time gulper and necks can be a choking hazard. It is also very easy to control bone content with them. I have fed chicken feet but the yorkie has found a way to gulp them too so they are off the menu. I just purchased some ground rabbit bones to provide more bone variety. Some say that feeding necks too much can cause some problems because there could be thyroid tissue attached. They say this can lead to hyperthyroidism. That is why I try to vary the bones a bit. However, I would say the chances of a Havanese getting hyperthyroidism are slim to none. I am more fearful of hypothyroidism. But do your own research and do not listen to me as I do not claim to be an expert!

Here is a photo of Mia’s breakfast. It contains bison meat, diced chicken necks, bison heart, beef tongue, bison testes, beef pancreas, and pork liver. I do not feed the same organs everyday and vary them.


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## Mtk Ii (Mar 20, 2021)

What about using bone meal. I have heard of it, but don't know exactly what it is.


mudpuppymama said:


> Thanks. I was wondering where the calcium comes from in this diet? The chicken thighs have lots of calcium. Do you feel that adequate levels of calcium come out of the bones during the cooking process?





mudpuppymama said:


> I mainly feed chicken necks. I have also fed duck necks and occasionally feed ground whole prey (beef, turkey, pork) from My Pet Carnivore (contains bone) to get more bone variety into their diet. I feel necks are safest. They are soft and I dice them up in bite size nuggets to avoid anyone trying to gulp a chicken neck. The yorkie is a big time gulper and necks can be a choking hazard. It is also very easy to control bone content with them. I have fed chicken feet but the yorkie has found a way to gulp them too so they are off the menu. I just purchased some ground rabbit bones to provide more bone variety. Some say that feeding necks too much can cause some problems because there could be thyroid tissue attached. They say this can lead to hyperthyroidism. That is why I try to vary the bones a bit. However, I would say the chances of a Havanese getting hyperthyroidism are slim to none. I am more fearful of hypothyroidism. But do your own research and do not listen to me as I do not claim to be an expert!
> 
> Here is a photo of Mia’s breakfast. It contains bison meat, diced chicken necks, bison heart, beef tongue, bison testes, beef pancreas, and pork liver. I do not feed the same organs everyday and vary them.
> View attachment 173974


How many ounces is that? I serve about 3-4 Oz twice a day is that too much?


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Mtk Ii said:


> What about using bone meal. I have heard of it, but don't know exactly what it is.
> 
> 
> How many ounces is that? I serve about 3-4 Oz twice a day is that too much?


You need to consult with a nutritionist and not be guessing about the calcium supplements. I believe some people do use bone meal and others use calcium supplements. Some even feed egg shell. However, I am not knowledgeable enough to tell you what calcium supplement to use or how much. I am just making you aware that the diet you are feeding appears to be deficient in calcium which can cause some problems over an extended period of time. I feed raw meaty bones for calcium and I am not familiar with calcium supplements. There are some nutritionists at RawPetsRule and PerfectlyRawsome I believe that may be able to help you. Since your vet is the one who gave you the diet you are following, you could ask him or see if he knows a nutritionist.


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

mudpuppymama said:


> I mainly feed chicken necks. I have also fed duck necks and occasionally feed ground whole prey (beef, turkey, pork) from My Pet Carnivore (contains bone) to get more bone variety into their diet. I feel necks are safest. They are soft and I dice them up in bite size nuggets to avoid anyone trying to gulp a chicken neck. The yorkie is a big time gulper and necks can be a choking hazard. It is also very easy to control bone content with them. I have fed chicken feet but the yorkie has found a way to gulp them too so they are off the menu. I just purchased some ground rabbit bones to provide more bone variety. Some say that feeding necks too much can cause some problems because there could be thyroid tissue attached. They say this can lead to hyperthyroidism. That is why I try to vary the bones a bit. However, I would say the chances of a Havanese getting hyperthyroidism are slim to none. I am more fearful of hypothyroidism. But do your own research and do not listen to me as I do not claim to be an expert!
> 
> Here is a photo of Mia’s breakfast. It contains bison meat, diced chicken necks, bison heart, beef tongue, bison testes, beef pancreas, and pork liver. I do not feed the same organs everyday and vary them.
> View attachment 173974


Thanks for the info. Please don't worry, when it comes to research I don't do anything half way. I've watched the YouTube videos you recommended below. I think you were the one who also suggested The Primal Pack. Right now I cut up Freeze dried chicken necks the way you do with the raw. I won't be introducing even the slightest amount of anything raw without consulting a nutritionist. Although at this point it may need to be some sort of Zoom call since I can't find one locally. 
Mia's breakfast looks pretty tasty! You've also mentioned My Pet Carnivore at some point so I've read their website as well as what seems like a 100 others. I agree with your distinction between hyperthyroidism and hypothyroidism. I will continue with my research, review YouTube videos, and take it one step at a time. The main issue for me is finding sources where I can ask detailed questions without being quipped at. You and GoWithTheFlow are definitely more experienced than I am and I enjoy getting feedback from someone else who has already committed to the process. 
Next time I'll attach a disclaimer form for you😋


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## Mtk Ii (Mar 20, 2021)

mudpuppymama said:


> You need to consult with a nutritionist and not be guessing about the calcium supplements. I believe some people do use bone meal and others use calcium supplements. Some even feed egg shell. However, I am not knowledgeable enough to tell you what calcium supplement to use or how much. I am just making you aware that the diet you are feeding appears to be deficient in calcium which can cause some problems over an extended period of time. I feed raw meaty bones for calcium and I am not familiar with calcium supplements. There are some nutritionists at RawPetsRule and PerfectlyRawsome I believe that may be able to help you. Since your vet is the one who gave you the diet you are following, you could ask him or see if he knows a nutritionist.


Thanks


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## Mtk Ii (Mar 20, 2021)

My research has revealed that my adult dogs 2 & 3 are getting adequate calcium with the chicken thigh meat, the organ meats and the vegetables especially the Kale. I have also found out that adult dogs don't need that much calcium and too much is dangerous. I have also been told to never feed my boy bones because he is a big time gulper.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Mtk Ii said:


> My research has revealed that my adult dogs 2 & 3 are getting adequate calcium with the chicken thigh meat, the organ meats and the vegetables especially the Kale. I have also found out that adult dogs don't need that much calcium and too much is dangerous. I have also been told to never feed my boy bones because he is a big time gulper.


It is true that adult dogs do not need as much calcium as puppies and you have a bit more “wiggle room”. However, calcium is still a critical component of the canine diet. And the #1 mistake that people who feed a homemade diet make is not providing adequate calcium. And this is the #1 reason why vets are against a homemade diet. A dog has a significant need for calcium and if it is not provided in the diet, the dog’s own body is going to get the calcium it needs from the dog’s own bones. This will result in some serious problems. You will not find out until after the damage is done because blood tests will show sufficient calcium levels whether the calcium comes from the diet or the dog’s bones. Here are a couple articles that touch on this. If the dog is not consuming edible bone, I do not see how it is possible for the dog to get the calcium it needs without a supplement. I sincerely hope you checked with someone knowledgeable about this. Here are a couple articles:









Calcium in Homemade Dog Food - Whole Dog Journal


If asked the most common mistake people make when feeding their dogs a homemade diet, I’d have to say that it’s not adding calcium.




www.whole-dog-journal.com













Homemade Chicken and Vegetable Dog Food Recipe


Get started making a nutritionally complete homemade meal for your dog with this chicken-based dog food recipe. This recipe uses chicken liver, breast and thighs, and plenty of healthy veggies. Discover the joy of cooking for your pup.




thebark.com


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

JaJa said:


> Thanks for the info. Please don't worry, when it comes to research I don't do anything half way. I've watched the YouTube videos you recommended below. I think you were the one who also suggested The Primal Pack. Right now I cut up Freeze dried chicken necks the way you do with the raw. I won't be introducing even the slightest amount of anything raw without consulting a nutritionist. Although at this point it may need to be some sort of Zoom call since I can't find one locally.
> Mia's breakfast looks pretty tasty! You've also mentioned My Pet Carnivore at some point so I've read their website as well as what seems like a 100 others. I agree with your distinction between hyperthyroidism and hypothyroidism. I will continue with my research, review YouTube videos, and take it one step at a time. The main issue for me is finding sources where I can ask detailed questions without being quipped at. You and GoWithTheFlow are definitely more experienced than I am and I enjoy getting feedback from someone else who has already committed to the process.
> Next time I'll attach a disclaimer form for you😋


Thanks for the compliment JaJa😊 I am afraid you are being far too generous where I am concerned though😘😘 I just read up on prepared raw food suppliers and then went with the one I most liked the sound of!

You, Mudpuppymama and Mtk li all sound far my knowledgeable than I am!! I applaud you all researching and preparing your own food from scratch. I would like to attempt it one day but I think I will need to get divorced first🤣🤣 Husband is very unimpressed whenever I come home with a new body part for Flo to try😁


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Thanks for the compliment JaJa😊 I am afraid you are being far too generous where I am concerned though😘😘 I just read up on prepared raw food suppliers and then went with the one I most liked the sound of!
> 
> You, Mudpuppymama and Mtk li all sound far my knowledgeable than I am!! I applaud you all researching and preparing your own food from scratch. I would like to attempt it one day but I think I will need to get divorced first🤣🤣 Husband is very unimpressed whenever I come home with a new body part for Flo to try😁


Thank you Flo. I am definitely not an expert and don’t claim to be. And I am clueless with cooked diets. However, I know how important calcium is in the dog’s diet and have spent a few sleepless nights worrying about it myself. So just trying to make others aware that this is one of the possible pitfalls of a homemade diet. I feel the other one is too much liver. Liver is great and an important part of a raw diet but it is loaded with vitamin A and too much vitamin A can cause problems. Some liver like beef is sky high in copper too which can cause issues. It is also very high in phosphorus. However, I admire people who want to feed a homemade diet and as long as some basic rules are followed it can work very well. For a raw diet, your dogs poop will tell you if you are feeding the right amount of bone. If you feed a cooked diet with so many different ingredients and things like pumpkin which firm up the stool I have no idea how you can tell. So someone who knows needs to provide guidance on how to get calcium into the diet properly.


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## Mtk Ii (Mar 20, 2021)

mudpuppymama said:


> Thank you Flo. I am definitely not an expert and don’t claim to be. And I am clueless with cooked diets. However, I know how important calcium is in the dog’s diet and have spent a few sleepless nights worrying about it myself. So just trying to make others aware that this is one of the possible pitfalls of a homemade diet. I feel the other one is too much liver. Liver is great and an important part of a raw diet but it is loaded with vitamin A and too much vitamin A can cause problems. Some liver like beef is sky high in copper too which can cause issues. It is also very high in phosphorus. However, I admire people who want to feed a homemade diet and as long as some basic rules are followed it can work very well. For a raw diet, your dogs poop will tell you if you are feeding the right amount of bone. If you feed a cooked diet with so many different ingredients and things like pumpkin which firm up the stool I have no idea how you can tell. So someone who knows needs to provide guidance on how to get calcium into the diet properly.


Thanks for all the great information! From what I gather from this discussion is that appropriate amounts of calcium for my dog and in his system is purely guess work. Since no blood test can measure it and we don't have a way to tell if we are giving them too much, which is also dangerous we are just rolling the dice and hoping. Do I have this right?


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Mtk Ii said:


> Thanks for all the great information! From what I gather from this discussion is that appropriate amounts of calcium for my dog and in his system is purely guess work. Since no blood test can measure it and we don't have a way to tell if we are giving them too much, which is also dangerous we are just rolling the dice and hoping. Do I have this right?


Yes you have it right. It is extremely unlikely (impossible IMO) that this diet is providing too much calcium. It is very likely that it is way too low in calcium. The diet may be fine otherwise and you may just need to add a calcium supplement if you do not want to feed bone. This is where the guidance of a nutritionist would help. I would say this is most critical especially if you are planning on feeding this same diet day in and day out for years. I think it is great that you want to feed a homemade diet. It can provide so many benefits but it must be balanced properly or it can cause problems. With supplements it is more easy to “overdo” too and as you said too much calcium is not good either. If you want to continue this diet I would have it evaluated by a nutritionist who could provide information on how to fill in the gaps. When feeding a homemade diet, it must be balanced. Otherwise it is best to find a good quality commercial food and just supplement with a bit of homemade.


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## Mtk Ii (Mar 20, 2021)

Thanks again!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Mtk Ii said:


> Thanks again!


You are welcome! I hope you find the answers you need. Good luck!


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## Mtk Ii (Mar 20, 2021)

mudpuppymama said:


> Do the dogs consume the thigh bones as well? Are they softened in the Instant Pot?


Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, I am not a regular visitor to the site. The answer to your question is NO we don't ever give our Havanese dogs bones. The boy is a GULPER it it was recommended we keep bones away for fear of choking. So that means the girl doesn't get them either.


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## Mtk Ii (Mar 20, 2021)

No we supplement with a Pet Tab every morning for each dog. We don't feed bones there is plenty of calcium in the meat and organ meats, plus the Quinoa.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Mtk Ii said:


> No we supplement with a Pet Tab every morning for each dog. We don't feed bones there is plenty of calcium in the meat and organ meats, plus the Quinoa.


Does the Pet Tab contain calcium? Some people who do not feed bones for calcium feed a supplement that contains calcium. Some dogs are gulpers and need to be fed ground bones to avoid choking. Otherwise a supplement is used. I fear that meat, organs and quinoa is not going to provide enough calcium. Calcium is one of the most critical components of the dog’s diet. Over time a deficiency in calcium can cause serious issues. Please consult with a nutritionist if you are in doubt.


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## Mtk Ii (Mar 20, 2021)

Yes Thanks, their daily Pet Tab provides 2.5% of Calcium with a maximum recommended daily dose of 3.5%, plus many micro nutrients. Appreciate the input, we love our puppies, maybe too much.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Here is an article on balancing calcium in homemade diets in case anyone is interested.









How To Balance Calcium For Dogs - Dogs Naturally


Calcium is an important mineral, but many raw and cooked foods get calcium wrong. Here's how to balance calcium for dogs ...




www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com


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## Mtk Ii (Mar 20, 2021)

Thanks!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

biffertwrf said:


> Yes some comes from the bones cooking, but also from the Kale and the Quinoa. Also the Quinoa contains many of the micro nutrients needed for good health. Quinoa can be substituted for a starch, but is much better, for it contains most of the micro nutrients necessary for the pups, while avoiding the starch.


They may get SOME calcium from Kale and Quinoa and bone broth but it is NOT enough for a dog. A supplement with calcium is essential for this type of diet. Dogs have a high need for calcium and there is no way they can eat enough kale, quinoa and bone broth to provide what they need.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> They may get SOME calcium from Kale and Quinoa and bone broth but it is NOT enough for a dog. A supplement with calcium is essential for this type of diet. Dogs have a high need for calcium and there is no way they can eat enough kale, quinoa and bone broth to provide what they need.


Think you got sucked in by a clever spam.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> Think you got sucked in by a clever spam.


Actually I suspected this was a spammer but had to say this so that anyone looking at this thread will NOT take this as good advice! As we saw with the lost dog spam threads, some people thought it was legit! That is one problem with not having the spam posts deleted.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

mudpuppymama said:


> Here is an article on balancing calcium in homemade diets in case anyone is interested.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When I have had to do home made (for my last dog and for Perry during COVID) I used eggshells for calcium. Dry them out and grind them up  Of course, I wasn't doing it long term so while I did try to balance all of the nutrients (for Perry it was with a nutritionist recommended recipe, for my last dog it was 20 years ago after reading lots of books) I wasn't too worried since I knew it wasn't going to be forever.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Melissa Brill said:


> When I have had to do home made (for my last dog and for Perry during COVID) I used eggshells for calcium. Dry them out and grind them up  Of course, I wasn't doing it long term so while I did try to balance all of the nutrients (for Perry it was with a nutritionist recommended recipe, for my last dog it was 20 years ago after reading lots of books) I wasn't too worried since I knew it wasn't going to be forever.


Egg shells definitely provide calcium and can be used in a pinch if raw bones are not fed. The egg shell membrane is also good for the joints. However, egg shell does not contain any phosphorus which is in bones so you have to make sure that enough phosphorus is fed to balance it out. In addition, egg shells sort of act like an antacid and dogs NEED acid to digest their food. That high acid is what enables them to digest raw meat and bones and it also helps to destroy any bad stuff that may be in their food, which is why salmonella and such is typically not an issue for a dog with a healthy gut.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

mudpuppymama said:


> Egg shells definitely provide calcium and can be used in a pinch if raw bones are not fed. The egg shell membrane is also good for the joints. However, egg shell does not contain any phosphorus which is in bones so you have to make sure that enough phosphorus is fed to balance it out. In addition, egg shells sort of act like an antacid and dogs NEED acid to digest their food. That high acid is what enables them to digest raw meat and bones and it also helps to destroy any bad stuff that may be in their food, which is why salmonella and such is typically not an issue for a dog with a healthy gut.


As a vegetarian I could (barely) handle having the butcher grind up the meat and offal together so I could just dump it in boiling water (with the grain, etc.) and then mix it all up together at the end - bones were definitely not something I could deal with . No one had mentioned the phosphorous issue - I wonder if it was just covered by something else in the recipe from the nutritionist... but for us it was only for a few months (for Perry) and about a year for my other dog so just a short-term stop-gap until we could get his food again.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Melissa Brill said:


> As a vegetarian I could (barely) handle having the butcher grind up the meat and offal together so I could just dump it in boiling water (with the grain, etc.) and then mix it all up together at the end - bones were definitely not something I could deal with . No one had mentioned the phosphorous issue - I wonder if it was just covered by something else in the recipe from the nutritionist... but for us it was only for a few months (for Perry) and about a year for my other dog so just a short-term stop-gap until we could get his food again.


Meat and organs are high in phosphorus so it was likely covered. I think they recommend so much egg shell to go with the amount of meat fed to keep things balanced. As far as the antacid aspects that is in something I have read about but would likely only be a problem over a long period of time and they prefer bone meal over egg shell if bones cannot be fed. However, some dogs have special needs like kidney issues and lower phosphorus could be beneficial for them. There are always different opinions on feeding!


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## Mtk Ii (Mar 20, 2021)

JaJa said:


> What kind (animal) raw bones do you give Mia?





mudpuppymama said:


> I feed a homemade raw diet where my dogs get their calcium from raw bones. I am not familiar with feeding a cooked diet, however my understanding is that if you are not feeding raw bones, you need to supplement with calcium somehow. I have never heard of a dog being able to get sufficient calcium from grains or veggies. I hope your vet is correct, especially if you are planning to feed this same diet for the rest of their life. A calcium deficiency will not show up overnight. It will take some time but it can definitely cause problems and they are serious. Sorry to be so blunt and maybe what your feeding is fine but it is definitely worth consulting with a nutritionist in my opinion. Or maybe ask your vet how he knows this diet is meeting their calcium requirement.


mudpuppymama, We have had conversations in the past and I consider you an expert on feeding. I have been feeding my pups a cooked diet with a recipe from and vet. However I am thinking of switching to a Raw Diet and I think that is what you do. My big question is how much Raw food should I feed my dogs. I feed twice a day. My boy is between 12 & 13 lbs. and his sister is between 11 & 12 lbs. I have been told that they should get 2oz each in the morning and 2 oz each in the evening, that sure doesn't sound like much to me. Am I missing something? Thanks for the help.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Mtk Ii said:


> mudpuppymama, We have had conversations in the past and I consider you an expert on feeding. I have been feeding my pups a cooked diet with a recipe from and vet. However I am thinking of switching to a Raw Diet and I think that is what you do. My big question is how much Raw food should I feed my dogs. I feed twice a day. My boy is between 12 & 13 lbs. and his sister is between 11 & 12 lbs. I have been told that they should get 2oz each in the morning and 2 oz each in the evening, that sure doesn't sound like much to me. Am I missing something? Thanks for the help.


The general guideline for amount to feed daily is 2 to 3 percent of their body weight. You can split that between two meals if you feed twice a day. For small dogs, it is usually at least 3 percent and could be more. Every dog is a bit different and this is just a general guideline but a good place to start. You should be able to feel their ribs easily. Mine eat a bit over 3 percent daily and maintain their weight. A lot could depend on activity level and the types of food fed. When switching to raw, it is better to start at a lower amount and increase it if need be to make the transition easier. Too much food can cause upset.

I feed meat, raw meaty bones, secreting organs and non-secreting organs. I do not feed any carbs at all…no grains and no starchy vegetables. In fact I feed no veggies at all. Mine get their energy from fat. If carbs are fed, the percentage they eat may be different. However, I am not an expert on feeding a raw diet with carbs so this is just my guess. There are a few different ways to feed a raw diet. Some include vegetables and some do not. Typically if veggies are fed, it is a very small amount and they are non starchy. Most raw feeders do not feed any grains.

May I ask why you have decided to try a raw diet? I think that is great but just wondered. Perfectly Rawsome is a good resource if you are looking for information on raw feeding.


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## Mtk Ii (Mar 20, 2021)

mudpuppymama said:


> The general guideline for amount to feed daily is 2 to 3 percent of their body weight. You can split that between two meals if you feed twice a day. For small dogs, it is usually at least 3 percent and could be more. Every dog is a bit different and this is just a general guideline but a good place to start. You should be able to feel their ribs easily. Mine eat a bit over 3 percent daily and maintain their weight. A lot could depend on activity level and the types of food fed. When switching to raw, it is better to start at a lower amount and increase it if need be to make the transition easier. Too much food can cause upset.
> 
> I feed meat, raw meaty bones, secreting organs and non-secreting organs. I do not feed any carbs at all…no grains and no starchy vegetables. In fact I feed no veggies at all. Mine get their energy from fat. If carbs are fed, the percentage they eat may be different. However, I am not an expert on feeding a raw diet with carbs so this is just my guess. There are a few different ways to feed a raw diet. Some include vegetables and some do not. Typically if veggies are fed, it is a very small amount and they are non starchy. Most raw feeders do not feed any grains.
> 
> May I ask why you have decided to try a raw diet? I think that is great but just wondered. Perfectly Rawsome is a good resource if you are looking for information on raw feeding.


Well part was because of your comments on Calcium, the other is that we have a friend whose dog was on a steep decline, she heard about feeding a raw diet and started, the dog made an immediate, I mean an immediate turn around and is now acting like a puppy again she is a 10 year old pit bull. So we thought we would give it a try.


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## Mtk Ii (Mar 20, 2021)

Mtk Ii said:


> Well part was because of your comments on Calcium, the other is that we have a friend whose dog was on a steep decline, she heard about feeding a raw diet and started, the dog made an immediate, I mean an immediate turn around and is now acting like a puppy again she is a 10 year old pit bull. So we thought we would give it a try.


By the way thanks for your help.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Mtk Ii said:


> By the way thanks for your help.


You‘re welcome! Good luck with your raw feeding! I am sure happy I made the switch.


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