# Breeding for a particular color



## El Bueno Habanero (Oct 20, 2009)

Lately I've been following many new litters (talking mostly about European dogs) and the choices different breeders are making. What strikes me is that it seems that everyone is going after red or chocolate these days and it really makes me sad and concerned for the future of our beloved havanese. 
I understand that many dog owners/buyers have a specific color preference, in my opinion nothing wrong with that (and I'm not any different, love the black ones lol), but for the breeders to chase a specific color as their primary goal...it just feels so wrong. 

I have also looked at some red dogs on the havanese gallery and what jumps out is that those dogs have the highest COI I've ever seen among havaneses. Ok, red being recessive, I guess one has to inbreed and line breed tightly to get those beautiful colored dogs, but I personally wouldn't want a dog with a COI of 95%. (I have even seen some with a COI of 120%, is there something wrong with the gallery, how is this number possible? I have always thought that COI goes from 0 to 100%. If someone could explain this to me please.)

I'm really curious how you all feel about this issue. We are always talking about havaneses as being relatively healthy breed, but the more I follow everything thats happening the more worried I'm that it won't be the case for long, lets say 10 years from now. Havs are winning on popularity with every day that goes bye and I so hope that breeders will learn something from dog breeds like Cavalier and others who are having so much health problems before it's to late. Dog is not a color! Or a good rear, or straight topline or whatever. All I can do is pray that we're not heading for a new purebred disaster. And I'm getting pretty sick lately when I hear the words 'for the betterment of the breed' as in my experience it usually comes down to exterior when speaking about 'betterment'. Why would these beautiful havs need to become any better then they already are?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

That's one reason I wanted a dog from a family where there were other performance dogs... Not just all "pretty faces".. Dogs have o be structurally sound to be successful long term in performance sports.


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## tootle (Jun 19, 2007)

Although tempting to keep an unusual color, a breeder should go with the dog that will look the best naked


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## Cailleach (Jan 30, 2010)

tootle said:


> Although tempting to keep an unusual color, a breeder should go with the dog that will look the best naked


Brilliant...my personal thought condensed into one sentence.


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## rokipiki (Oct 15, 2010)

I have read some articles saying that bad stuff with havanese has already happened - luxating patellas, juvenile cataracts, liver shunts, SA and some other nasty hereditary diseases. I understood that it hasn't gone too bad, so everybody that is breeding should take extra care. Havanese are definitely in fashion and that is a great danger here in Europe, but even more in US. The demand for puppies is just too big. Maltese used to be so popular 15 years ago and now we have a complete disaster here and all over Europe. 
On Monday I started thread World Dog Show 2012. with links to havanese who won that prestigious titles, but it died out very soon because nobody posted any replies. It is interesting to see that no reds and no chocolates among winners. One thing about those two colours is that people who would like to buy havs think that these colurs are extremely attractive. One thing my vet told me that white or very light coloured dogs are genetically more proone to skin problems! Roki's breeder, who is vet and very experienced breeder, doesn't like chocolate pigment in havanese at all and told me that he is not going to sacrifice wellbeing of dogs for sake of fashion. 

Marina&Roki


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## HalleBerry (Feb 22, 2012)

I would be surprised if any of the genetic problems in Havanese are color linked, honestly. Alopecia is more likely related to hypothyroidism or liver disorders, which would be genetic tho not color related. Great danes do have color dilution alopecia with blue, but I'm again not sure that it isn't a primary autoimmune disorder (genetic) inherent in a smaller gene pool. 

I thought I read that chocolate may not be a dilute? And red would not be dilute either.

Health testing - not only CHIC testing but adding Bile acid testing (maybe after a year of age) and annual CERF testing would significantly help eliminate those dogs who have disorders from the gene pool.


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## rokipiki (Oct 15, 2010)

Well, we have a lagotto romagnolo girl in our dog park. Five generations of her ancestors were tested for various diseases and her parents were all clear and healthy, but poor Claire has severe hip dysplasia. Her owner started health tests because her breeder thought that she is excelent for breeding. Special boy for her was brought from Italy, but she failed the first test - hips x-ray. Her (two years old) prognosis is not very good and she is probably a candidate for hip replacement surgery. Her sister from the same litter is all clear and healthy and going into the breeding. After this I doubt that all those health tests are a guarantee for anything. At the university vet clinic Claire's owner was told that generally health tests give like 30 percent guarantee that puppy you bought is healthy and WILL STAY healthy most of his life. 

Marina&Roki


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## HalleBerry (Feb 22, 2012)

You are right, health testing is not a promise of future health - but it's all that we have. Hip dysplasia is considered a polygenetic trait, so it's not just about the specific parents - it's about the family in total.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

I do not see a problem with breeding for color, I do see a problem when unsound dogs are bred just to try and repeat a popular color. It takes time and knowing the science of genetics to understand what causes color patterns. An example is: Dalmations in order to get a liver color you need two carriers of the liver gene and then you get a mix, maybe even only one and sometimes none. You never get a liver from a black and liver from two blacks.(For the sceince types yes I have written this in an over easy explanation as if can get boring for most of us fast). 

As for white dogs having more skin problems this is true, but it is not always genetic, they are often victims of our ignorance. Dog with white color even in full coat need protection from the sun, they often have very pink skin it is delicate and the white hair does not block the sun from the skin, its like a redhead or blonde human with light skin wearing a white tee shirt at the beach they will burn through the shirt. Also many owners shave their dogs down in summer as they feel it cools them and it makes them easy to care for, so they send them outside in the sun or take them for long walks, now if you have a blonde baby and you give him a summer crew cut do you send him right out in the sun? Westies are known for having skin problems...they do not come from a sunny area. My point is some of the problems are caused by owners not using common sense. 

I know there are lots of trials going on with white dogs, I could go on and on about why you should not jump at putting your dog in one. As owners we should look at medical trials as a last chance, not as an easy or sure cure.

The problem is not trying to breed for color its how their breeding and who.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

rokipiki said:


> Well, we have a lagotto romagnolo girl in our dog park. Five generations of her ancestors were tested for various diseases and her parents were all clear and healthy, but poor Claire has severe hip dysplasia. Her owner started health tests because her breeder thought that she is excelent for breeding. Special boy for her was brought from Italy, but she failed the first test - hips x-ray. Her (two years old) prognosis is not very good and she is probably a candidate for hip replacement surgery. Her sister from the same litter is all clear and healthy and going into the breeding. After this I doubt that all those health tests are a guarantee for anything. At the university vet clinic Claire's owner was told that generally health tests give like 30 percent guarantee that puppy you bought is healthy and WILL STAY healthy most of his life.
> 
> Marina&Roki


 Their is no way a breeder can totally guarantee a puppy by the time he or she is old enough for a good hip test is going to pass. That is why a breeder waits until the dog is two years old. Its a lot of money and time involved becoming a breeder. Your friend hopefully had a good contract and got some compensation. Its like havin to start all over again .
I'm not educated on whether choc or Red Havanese have health issues. I think with some breeders its a fun challenge to try to produce reds. I know a very reputable breeder who bought a bitch for the sole purpose of trying to produce some red off spring. I still don't understand line breeding but some very good Havanese breeders do it.


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