# Desperately in need of Advice



## mom23girls

Hi...I am about at my wits end & in serious need of advice. We have a 4 year old Havanese. She's been with us for a month now. In that time, she has followed my every step. I understand in the beginning that its normal and everone said that slowly, she would begin bonding with my kids and husband. This hasn't happened at all. The only time she goes to the kids is if I'm standing there in the room. She won't play with them at all. She lays next to me at night & growls at my husband or the girls if they come in our room. She's not aggressive in any way, but it just doesn't seem normal. She sits and stares at me, watching my every move so she can be on my heels the second I walk. Yesterday I fell really hard trying to avoid stepping on her. It's making my day to day routine so difficult. I have two young kids and we got the dog for them, I do love dogs, but it's getting hard to be patient when she shows no signs of wanting to be part of our family, just an unnatural need to be glued to me. If I leave the house & don't bring her with me, I come home to find her water and food tipped over all over the kitchen & usually she will go to the bathroom in the front hall. I really can't take it anymore. I feel like I have no life anymore. I have no idea how to handle this. If anyone can give me suggestions, it would be so greatly appreciated. -Jen


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## pjewel

Jen,

It sounds like your dog has issues with security. She came to you at an age when she has a whole history to overcome. Do you know the situation she was in? Did she live in one home her whole life or was it more? It sounds mightily like she's afraid to lose what she has (you) and that anything she perceives as threatening that relationship is going to be fought off. It's very possible all she needs is time to know she's in her forever home and she has nothing to fear.

I'm not at all minimizing your frustration, I understand it. I truly hope you can work through this. My prayers are with you both.


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## Paige

Jen, I'm sorry to hear you are having these issues. If she is on your lap or on the bed with you, as soon as she growls she needs to be told NO and put down on the floor. You need to crate train her, so she can go in the crate when you are gone and at night, until you get these issues resolved. It sounds like she is claiming you. Maybe this was her way of dealing with changing homes. Good Luck.


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## mom23girls

Thank you...what you're saying totally makes sense. She was in one home when she was a show dog from birth to age 3 and then another home when she had her puppies (4 months ago) and now with us. I just don't know how to encourage her to want to be with the kids. My 9 year old has wanted a dog all her life and I'm not kidding, would sit with one hand in a fire if the other hand could be petting her dog...she loves her to pieces and it breaks my heart to not see it returned at all.


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## CacheHavs

Jen,

I too have been through this with one of my girls. She came to me at an older age after living with one family (her breeder). She would growl at everyone (my husband included) but not in a mean way. she would NEVER let me out of her site, she wouldn't play with the kids nor the other dogs, she would just sit on my lap and watch. If I left her somewhere, she would drive everybody crazy with her constant whining and barking. She had one more thing against her too as I imported her from overseas, so she also had to learn English. We just stuck with it and it took her about 8-10 moths to go to all the family members, and today you would never know that she was like that. 
My husband went from lets get rid of her to now she is his "Little Princess" and he is very protective of her. 

So all I can say is hang in there and give it some time, she will (I believe) come around, it will just take time especially since she is a much older dog changing homes. Trust me I know how frustrating and difficult it can be with a dog like her.

Good luck I hope you will be able to gain your sanity and your little girl to realize that all of you as a family are there for her.


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## CacheHavs

Paige,
You made some good points there, I forgot to mention that too as that is what we did too with our girl. Thanks for mentioning that


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## Paige

mom23girls said:


> Thank you...what you're saying totally makes sense. She was in one home when she was a show dog from birth to age 3 and then another home when she had her puppies (4 months ago) and now with us. I just don't know how to encourage her to want to be with the kids. My 9 year old has wanted a dog all her life and I'm not kidding, would sit with one hand in a fire if the other hand could be petting her dog...she loves her to pieces and it breaks my heart to not see it returned at all.


Have you 9 year old do the feeding. Have your hav sit for her before she gives her the food. That way your hav will start gaining respect for your daughter and start bonding. Have you children give her give treats a few times a day. Also have her sit for the treat.

Have her sit for you before you pet her or let her in your lap. She needs to know you are in charge. Once she starts going to the other family members have her follow the same rules with them. It will help teach her where her postition is in the pack and she will feel more comfortable.


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## juliav

Jen,

I am so sorry you are having a tough time with Amy. You've got a lot of good advice,but there are a couple of more suggestions. One, can you get your daughters more involved with the daily care. Can you have them mix and put out her food (so she can see and smell them on it). Is it possible to have the girls walk Amy around the block or in the park without you. 

My hubby tells me that when I am not at home, Bugsy doesn't really socialize with eithe him or the kids. He sometimes sits by the door downstairs or sleeps (either by himself or with my other dogs). Sometimes if he gets vocal, my son get his little old bed, puts Bugsy in it and just holds him. It seems to strangely comfort him and he goes to sleep. 

Another questions, are you a stay at home mom? If so, Amy spends most of her time with you, so that's the reason she is more attached.

Good luck to you. 

P.S. definitely crate her when you are away or when she goes to sleep at night.


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## juliav

Paige,

You and I seemed to be on the same wave length about feeding.


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## mom23girls

I will start letting my daughter feed her. That's a great idea. I usually do all the things like taking her out, feeding her, grooming, etc... We need to teach her commands....isn't that strange that she doesn't even know "sit"? Actually, I don't think she knows how to do anything other than walk on a leash & heel, which does does absolutely perfectly. I've tried telling her to sit (using a treat to encourage her) & she looks at me like she has no idea what I'm saying. I felt bad putting her in her crate when we went out & so after a few weeks, started giving her more freedom. I've been telling her to back up when she is under my feet and trying to get a bit of space around myself just so I can move without falling over her. Is ignoring her when she follows me the best thing to do & then give her attention when the kids are in bed? I'm thinking if I'm not showering her with attention during the day, the other member of the family may look more appealing..... I can't thank you all enough for your input. I appreciate it so much. -Jen


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## Paige

I am a stay at home Mom and my dogs are around me more than anyone else. I have had my 2 daugters and husband all follow the same rules with the dogs from the day I bring them home. This has really seemed to eliminate problems. They have to wait and be told "okay" before they can come back in, sit before they can come on the couch, lay down and wait for their food and they must wait for all humans to go through a door before they can. 

They will all obey everyone in the house not just me. I think it makes for a calmer dog when they know where there place is in the pack.


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## mom23girls

Julia - Yes, I'm stay at home mom, but my husband has his office at home when he's not travelling, so we're both here during the day, as is my 4 year old who isn't in school yet. One thing I did forget to say was that at her last home, she had other Havs to play with & they were her main source of playing/interaction. The woman who had her was older. She doesn't even know what to do with doggy toys. She's been sleeping on the loveseat in our room. Do you think we should just start putting her downstairs in her crate at night? She never sleeps in bed with us. Usually the growling at my husband occurs when he makes his way upstairs after falling asleep in front on the tv (sometime in the middle of the night) I usually sleep through it.......


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## Paige

mom23girls said:


> I will start letting my daughter feed her. That's a great idea. I usually do all the things like taking her out, feeding her, grooming, etc... We need to teach her commands....isn't that strange that she doesn't even know "sit"? Actually, I don't think she knows how to do anything other than walk on a leash & heel, which does does absolutely perfectly. I've tried telling her to sit (using a treat to encourage her) & she looks at me like she has no idea what I'm saying. I felt bad putting her in her crate when we went out & so after a few weeks, started giving her more freedom. I've been telling her to back up when she is under my feet and trying to get a bit of space around myself just so I can move without falling over her. Is ignoring her when she follows me the best thing to do & then give her attention when the kids are in bed? I'm thinking if I'm not showering her with attention during the day, the other member of the family may look more appealing..... I can't thank you all enough for your input. I appreciate it so much. -Jen


Dogs get attention in many ways. Feeding them, walking them is a form of attention. It can hurt a dog if you are constantly giving attention. You don't want to feel sorry for her, she will since that as a weakness on your part. I crate all three of mine when I leave and they don't mind at all. They usually go in their crates when they see us getting our coats. My three go in their crates to nap durning the day. If you make it a pleasent place, they won't mind at all. Put a special treat in their during the day and let her go in for naps to get her used to it.


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## Kathy

mom23girls said:


> Thank you...what you're saying totally makes sense. She was in one home when she was a show dog from birth to age 3 and then another home when she had her puppies (4 months ago) and now with us. I just don't know how to encourage her to want to be with the kids. My 9 year old has wanted a dog all her life and I'm not kidding, would sit with one hand in a fire if the other hand could be petting her dog...she loves her to pieces and it breaks my heart to not see it returned at all.


Jen,
Try to think in terms of a human child, something you are very familiar with. Let's say, this "child" had been moved around from home to home, how do you think that child would be feeling, only after being in another new place for 1 month? She is feeling VERY insecure. She was not only taken away from her last home, which she had been at only a short time, but she also was a mother in that short time. Your children need to learn and understand that she doesn't hate them, she just doesn't know them and is feeling very scared and insecure. Havanese are companion dogs, which means they want to be with their human all the time. She has bonded with you first, most likely because you are her primary caregiver. I don't know how old your children are, but hopefully they are old enough to also start being a part of the caregiving part too. Let them put her food in the bowl and give it to her. Let them brush her while she is in your lap. If she growls, use a different tone then you normally would use and firmly, but nicely correct her by saying "no growl" or something similar. Had she been around children before? She will become what you want her to be, however, like Heather said, it will take time and patience. Have your children been around dogs before? I assume not, so they also might benefit from a video called, HOW TO TRAIN A DOG YOU CAN LIVE WITH. It is very good for kids. You can purchase it from www.dogwise.com.

Hang in there, it will get better. Dogs, like children, need lot's of LOVE, lot's of PATIENCE, and lot's of CONSISTENCY.


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## Paige

mom23girls said:


> Julia - Yes, I'm stay at home mom, but my husband has his office at home when he's not travelling, so we're both here during the day, as is my 4 year old who isn't in school yet. One thing I did forget to say was that at her last home, she had other Havs to play with & they were her main source of playing/interaction. The woman who had her was older. She doesn't even know what to do with doggy toys. She's been sleeping on the loveseat in our room. Do you think we should just start putting her downstairs in her crate at night? She never sleeps in bed with us. Usually the growling at my husband occurs when he makes his way upstairs after falling asleep in front on the tv (sometime in the middle of the night) I usually sleep through it.......


Could you put the crate in your bedroom, so she could see you?


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## Elaine

Jen,
You have so many good ideas to help you through this. She had no need to learn sit as a show dog so those are all fun training things you and your family can start working on together at an obedience class. You need to get her enrolled soon. If she was with her breeder, I am assuming female, and the last home, which you mention is female, than you should expect that she is use to the female in the house being her caregiver and will naturally follow you around. Havanese adapt very nicely to new environments but they do take patience and being retrained. I have placed several retired dogs into new forever homes and they have to relearn how to be house broken, because they are not use to your home, plus how to act in a new place. Would your children know where they are to eat, sleep and do everything at a new home without your help? You need to take little steps at first, everyone is right you need to start having your children and husband participate more in feeding and training and fun things for her. You are now her play mates and friends, especially since she was use to having other dogs around her. It doesn't really sound like she had a lot of interaction with people, per say, so she needs to learn how to reassociate with you. A training class is important. Don't give up on her as I think you will find that you have a wonderful companion in a few months. You would not give up on one of your kids if they had a learning problem so just remember she will love your whole family in the end. Move her crate to your 9 year olds room and put her in it at night. Have her take her out in the morning to go potty, start shifting the responsibility so she does not have to depend on you so much. If she whines in the crate at night that let your daughter sleep elsewhere for a night or two until she gets use to the room, so I would suggest you start this on a Friday night. Others have already mentioned being stern with her and a firm "NO" when she growls. You have become the new pack leader and your children need to know how to be right below you. She will fit in when she knows how the pack order works. Good luck and let us all know how she progresses and how much everyone loves her. Don't smother her but make her know where she fits into the family.


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## Cosmosmom

I lost my dog Asta when he was 4 and he was totally bonded to me .. He was very social and loved other people but he was my dog . It would have been difficult to rehome him at that age ..
This dog has a little bit of history going on - first it was a show dog and got a lot of attention and handling - then it was a Mommy had a litter that she had to give up and after that she was rehomed to another home with children . 
I imagine she had not been around children that much in the past .. .
First of all it it is going to take time ,patience and understanding . You all need to have a calm demanour around her so she can learn to trust .. 
You have already been given a lot of very good advice here about the feeding and the crating . You shouls not give her the run of the house until she feels safe and secure .Keep her in a gated area such as the kitchen if it is possible have your daughter do her homework there or just be present with you so she sees you as a team .. You have to realize your daughter comes and goes -- to school to activities .. You are the one constant right now - it is natural that she identify and rely on you .For now work with your daughter in sharing the tasks as suggested - let her do the feeding hold the leash when you are walking . brush her give her treats . You must be present however . For now your daughter cannot be too bouncy or enthusiastic .. In time not just now ..
As to not be able to sit if this little sweeetie was on the show circuit sitting is a No No in the show ring so it is not an option for her while she is in this milieu ..They are taught to stack walk on leash - they have specific tasks .. I am not familiar with them all as I do not show or have never shown but other members who do show their dogs could help you here .
She should be fine in a carate as show dogs spend a lot of time being transported and crated and she should feel safe and secure .
These are very intelligent dogs and eventually you will be able to teach her everything you want it just will take time and understanding on your part ..They are also very social and they will soon embrace your entire family .
I adopted Ahnold at a year - he had been in two homes proir to my home .. I have another dog so this help him make the adjustment as they speak dog . He did not know how to sit either but he does now . He was a little shy and tenative in the beginning but he is much better now .. He still likes me the best as I do most of the doggie stuff - feeding and walking going to the vet . We now have a part time petsitter and she ihas been a big help .. 
If you are very frustrated I suggest you find a trainer behaviourist or petsitter someone who can help you have some space or someone who will support you and give you some objectivity .. These dogs are very sensitive and they pick up on it when you are angry or upset ..
There is a lot of information out there in books as well and people on this forum have so much helpful information ..
It does get better but it takes time patience and work . Hopefully you can do this for her as it seems like she needs some love and consistency in her life ..


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## Lynn

Kathy said:


> Jen,
> Try to think in terms of a human child, something you are very familiar with. Let's say, this "child" had been moved around from home to home, how do you think that child would be feeling, only after being in another new place for 1 month? She is feeling VERY insecure. She was not only taken away from her last home, which she had been at only a short time, but she also was a mother in that short time. Your children need to learn and understand that she doesn't hate them, she just doesn't know them and is feeling very scared and insecure. Havanese are companion dogs, which means they want to be with their human all the time. She has bonded with you first, most likely because you are her primary caregiver. I don't know how old your children are, but hopefully they are old enough to also start being a part of the caregiving part too. Let them put her food in the bowl and give it to her. Let them brush her while she is in your lap. If she growls, use a different tone then you normally would use and firmly, but nicely correct her by saying "no growl" or something similar. Had she been around children before? *She will become what you want her to be, however, like Heather said, it will take time and patience. * Have your children been around dogs before? I assume not, so they also might benefit from a video called, HOW TO TRAIN A DOG YOU CAN LIVE WITH. It is very good for kids. You can purchase it from www.dogwise.com.
> 
> Hang in there, it will get better. Dogs, like children, need lot's of LOVE, lot's of PATIENCE, and lot's of CONSISTENCY.


This seems like great advice....these dogs are so smart, they need alot of love and encouragement.

The first couple of weeks we got Casper I stayed at home with him, and when my husband came home in the evening,Casper would growl at him. My husband told him NO firmly and took the alpha postion. They now are the best of friends, but my husband does stuff with Casper all the time and he really tried to bond to Casper. I am the caregiver but Casper now prefers to be with my husband.

So these dogs are always growing and changing, if you work with them I think they can be easily corrected because they are so smart.

I don't know how old your kids are but maybe you could find a dog class your kids could go to with the dog if they are old enough.


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## JanB

Jen, You've already been given such good advice so I'm not here to give more as much as I am here to say they do work! My Tessa was only 4 mo old when we adopted her and she still had to make quite an adjustment. While she still prefers me and follows me everywhere, including the bathroom, she is warm, open and friendly to everyone now. She's totally bonded to my DH who is her "rough play buddy" and she'll sometimes out of the blue jump in his lap and shower his face with kisses.  I truly never thought I'd see that! Most who met her before say she doesn't even seem like the same puppy! So hang in there and follow all the wonderful suggestions you've received. It may take her longer but she'll come around.

The only other comment I'd like to make is I wouldn't withhold attention or affection from Amy during the day as this may make her feel even more insecure. I would show her attention without babying her...just normal attention and love. Once she feels secure in your love she may be more open to other people.

Do the kids, when they try to play with Amy, try to engage her, pet her, that sort of thing? I know Tessa felt threatened at first by people who would reach for her or try to pet her. So I had my kids sit on the floor and hold out treats, avoiding direct eye contact (that can be threatening for a dog). When Tessa came close enough to take the treat from their hand they clicked and gave her the treat. These measures worked only if we let Tessa lead the way. And as I said, now Tessa approaches everyone with a friendly open manner but she prefers to be the one to take the initiative. I'm willing to bet that when Amy sees fun and good things come from your DH and kids she will warm up.

We do still crate Tessa at night in our bedroom.

Oh, and we found Tessa became way more interested in her toys when she became more secure and safe with us. 

Good luck! It sounds like Amy has found herself a wonderful home.


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## Laurief

I would def. have the kids do more with the pup. Let them be in charge of feeding them, let them take them out for potty. the more that they do with her, the more she will realize that they are part of her pack. Good luck to you guys on that.


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## mckennasedona

Jen, Hang in there. It will be worth it in the end. I've never adopted a show dog but we did adopt (or in this case were given) a little dog who had been turned in to the shelter for being "difficult." She was a fear biter, she was frightened, she would snap at us. She would follow us around but at a distance. She would eat and drink okay and let us pet her head but not any other part of her. We decided to show her a lot of love, but for awhile, we would give her the space she felt safe with. I knew in time she'd come to us. I think she could feel just how much we wanted to love her and make her "ours." One day, my DH was sitting in the back yard on a low beach chair. Maggie walked over, looked at him for a long time and then jumped on his chest. She looked at him as if to say, "are you going to push me off or smack me?" He didn't reach for her or even try to pet her yet, just smiled at her. She curled up on his chest and stayed there. From then on, she was the most affectionate thing you could ever want. No more snapping, and we could pet any part of her and her favorite spot was on a lap. She needed some work with the fear biting but that too was finally conquered. You see, in time, Maggie learned one important thing, TRUST. That was all it took. Your little one just has some security issues. Those too, will take time. It sounds like she was treated as ONLY a show dog and not a beloved pet that is also a show dog.
I wish you the best with her.

Hugs.


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## TnTWalter

*Well Winston prefers me to anyone else...*

while he loves all [well, with exception of my rough boy, maybe love is too strong there...lol], he much prefers me. he will go to them and check on them but i am constantly tripping over him. that's the nature of this breed, i think. they want to be with you 24/7.

right now winston is sleeping in the other room [within eyesight] but if i decided to go upstairs, he'd soon be there.

good luck. it took a while for winston to willingly go to the kids but he does. he also loves dh but could care less where he is [unless i'm not home].

oh and steven is his favorite outdoor playmate but indoors, nope. he has to be outside if steven's out there. it's great.

eace:


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## casperkeep

I hope things will get better for you soon!!!! You have some good advice on here....it may take a little more time!!! Jillee loves everyone....really everyone!!!! She loves us both but hubby says that she probably is more attached to me....but I am with her the most and feed them all!!!! I will say that Lizzie is her best buddy loves to lick her ears for her....too cute....Ginger just puts up with her!!! Let us know how things are going!!!


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## BeverlyA

Hi Jen,

I just wanted to reiterate what Cosmosmom said....she was a showdog, she is used to being crated a lot. She should find her crate as a safe and secure place, don't feel guilty for placing her in it. Crate's aren't "bad" or "punishment". Also, as a showdog, she must have been groomed a lot too, this might be a way your kids could participate in her care and bond with her also.

My trainer had us do a formal exercise to practice making our dogs "scoot" out of our way as we work in a small area, such as when we're in a kitchen, etc. Our dogs should be paying attention to US and staying out of our way. It's part of the position in the pack thing, and shouldn't be taken lightly. I know they are so adorable, and small and furry, but you give them an inch....
You really do need to let them know that you, your husband, and the kids, all are above her on the pecking order. I certainly don't mean this in an aggressive way, but if it's not determined from the beginning, it's just another problem that has to be dealt with later. Basic obediance classes would be a great idea.

Beverly


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## SMARTY

You have some great advice above. My experience is the Havanese are more sensitive than other breeds I have owned. They do have security issues, the reason for the Velcro dog, only wanting attention from one member of the family, and possessiveness. 

Having others take care of her will help. A crate is a must, this is her safe space and it will keep you from coming home to a mess. You might want to put the crate in your daughter’s room. Have other members of the family let her out of her crate and take her for her walks, play with her. Find something she enjoys and have your family play or feed her this. Food is a great equalizer.

My bet would be she will remain your dog but she will start to accept others. As a puppy Smarty wanted nothing to do with anyone else. She is still my dog and is always where I am but will play with my husband and grandchild. But I am still the only one that does anything for her other than a pee pee walk when my DH gets home first.

Good luck, she will be well worth all the efforts.


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## mom23girls

Thank you again for all your support & tips. I have contacted a trainer. My husband & I want to have someone come to the house so they can observe her behavior. She acts totally different away from home, of course. We are also going to try & find an obedience class that we can all attend. I'm really really hoping that this all works! She is a sweet dog & I would never give her up, I couldn't do that to the kids or her. I'm just clueless when it comes to training a dog....thank you again!! I'll keep you updated.


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## Lynn

Hi Jen,

So glad you got some ideas to work on, everyone here has so much experience with the Havanese dogs...it is just great to be able to come to the forum and get advice.

I was going to suggest for an obedience class you might look up an AKC dog club in your area. We just finished an AKC Canin Good Citizen class with Casper and it sounds like just what you need for Amy. It is the basics, plus the dogs learn to be friendly with other people and animals. It was perfect for Casper because he has/had (getting better all the time) some issues. 

Plus I found in the AKC club they really love the dogs and are concerned about your dog...at least that is what I found in this AKC club here.


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## irnfit

Jen, just remember that even though they call it dog obedience class, it is more for the humans than the dogs. While the dogs benefit greatly from these classes, it is because you are being trained how to handle the dog. The class I was in had mom, dad and the kids and everyone would take a turn with the dog. It was amazing to see the changes in everyone. The humans became more confident and the dogs behaved better. And as long as you follow through once classes are over, everything should work out fine.

Good luck. Amy is a beautiful dog.


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## DAJsMom

I agree. You have lots of good suggestions to work with. We got Dusty from her breeder at 7 months. She was also "glued" to me at first. She ran from my husband and really didn't want much to do with our 6 year old son. She did some better with our daughters. However, in the year we have had her, this has really changed. She adores my husband and often follows him instead of me, gets along great with the girls, and even has a good relationship with my son. He can pick Dusty up and carry her around and plays with her all the time. Playing with her came first for him. She would play with him but not let him hold her. She stayed at a safe distance. Just in the last few days, I've seen her stand on her hind legs and put her paws on him to say hi or lick his face. 
I say all this just to encourage you. Give Amy time to adjust (change will happen gradually over months), encourage your kids to interact with her in a fun, non-threatening way, let others feed her. She'll come around!


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## pjewel

Jen,

I'm so excited for you and Amy. You're about to embark on a road that will bring you all such pleasure. And for Amy, as soon as she gets the fact that this is her forever home, she'll relax and show you who she really is. Have fun with the training.


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## Thumper

I don't really know what else to add that hasn't been suggested or pointed out,

But it is pretty common for alot of Havs to really attach to ONE person, you..the main caretaker, and in my big family, Gucci likes the older kids more than the younger ones..she does play with all the kids, but is definately more 'guarded' around the kids under 12, She just seems very cautious around them. 

Amy has been through SO much, I wouldn't put her alone at night, I think that might hinder your efforts to build trust.

Good luck w/ the trainer, Havs are very sensitive and in tune to your feelings too, so don't get upset or anxious when she isnt' 'responding' to your kids or husband, try to remain "positive" and "happy" when they are around, they really can pick up what you are thinking and it may be misdirected!

Kara


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## Cosmosmom

It is a great idea to have the trainer or behaviourist come to your home . I did that with my two and she helped me a lot ..
The best thing is the support and reassurance she will give you .
I agree with the obdeience classes but I think you should start slow just with the one person coming to your home .. 
One thing I learned from Leah was not to overwhelm you dog - everyone proceeds at their own pace .. These dog has been traumatized and she needs some time . She had a job - she was a show dog and now she is not .. She was a Mom and now she is not . She is wondering what did I do wrong .. 
Everything you plan on doing is great and right on the money but you do not want to overwhelm her and flood her . Baby steps - you have a lifetime with her .. Try and stay in the moment and let her adjust ..
Let her get to know you and your pack first before she has to go out and meet new dogs and learn a lot of rules ... 
The problem with the obedience classes is that not a lot of them are just small dogs only and she has to deal with the enthusiasm bigger dogs ..


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## Lynn

Thumperlove said:


> Havs are very sensitive and in tune to your feelings too, so don't get upset or anxious when she isnt' 'responding' to your kids or husband, try to remain "positive" and "happy" when they are around, they really can pick up what you are thinking and it may be misdirected!
> 
> Kara


I think this is so true.....they do better with positive reinforcement than negative feelings or actions to correct problems.


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## Jane

Hi Jen,

I am sorry to hear about your frustration with Amy and hope things will improve soon. Even though you've had her for a month, it can take a dog much longer than that to really acclimate. I noticed even with Lincoln, who we raised from a puppy, I could tell he was much more accustomed to our routine, etc. at one year vs. even several months. And for Amy who has had other homes before yours, I would not be surprised if it takes her awhile to adjust. 

With Scout, who we also got as a puppy, it took him awhile to get used to my kids, especially my younger son. He is a year old now and has bonded well with my older son and is getting visibly more comfortable with my younger one. 

Both Lincoln and Scout bonded first and most strongly with me, but now they are very bonded to my husband too since he gives the best doggie massages and ear rubs in the house :biggrin1: 

Hopefully with patience, more time, and consistency in a safe environment, Amy will become a wonderful pet.


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## Thumper

Lynn,

On a handfull of occasions, I was 'displeased' to see someone and Gucci picked RIGHT up on it and was barking and growling at them! lol She's picked on my fear and anxiety before and followed suit, so don't be careful not to fall into frustration because Amy isn't 'acting' right around your family, because SHE might internalize that differently and reinforce her to stay away. In fact, start acting happy and excited when your kids or DH walk in a room...sorta like a 'potty party', and really push them treating her and helping tend to her.

Kara


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## JanB

Kara, good advice! I had a "party" every time one of the kids or DH walked into a room, and sometimes I would pick up Tessa and walk to them so we could all have a party together. It helped and now she has her own party with no help from me


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## mom23girls

You guys are great! Thank you again & again & again!!!! :dance:

I spoke to Amy's previous owner last night for quite some time & she was able to give me some more insight into her past. Sorry...this is probably going to be a long one!

Amy was co-owned by two women. She was at her first home from birth until about 5 or 6 months ago. In her first home, the owner kept her crated all day while she worked (she spent 40+ hours a week in a crate) She even delivered her first litter of puppies in a crate. It was during this time that they showed her. When she moved to her second home, she delivered her 2nd litter the very next day. In her second home, she was welcomed as part of the family and had full run of the house. She had many other dog friends, but apparently the owner worked with her lot to get her to come out of her shell. She said that she had a lot of security issues. Apparently, she was starting to come around and develop her personality when we got her. This explains a lot, like why she has no idea how to play with us. Also, I guess she's fearful of losing me, so needs me in sight.

I called a trainer today, it's a company called "Bark Busters". Has anyone heard of them? I guess they are a franchise. The woman was awfully nice that I spoke to. Everything she does is in-home...I like that! they have a website, http://barkbusters.com They will work with us as a family and give us strategies to help with Amy's insecurity & growling. The first consult is 3 hours, she also does obediance training in the home too and will come back as many times as needed. Once you pay them, you have follow up visits for the rest of the dog's life at no additional charge. (inital cost is $400). Do you think that's a good deal? I've never heard of them before, but she says she doesn't use treats to "bribe" them and there's nothing physical. I'm finding the going rate is about $95 and hour for in home consultsations and about $100 per session for classes.

Thanks for reading if you made it this far!!


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## mckennasedona

Jen, I'm so glad you were able to get some more information on Amy's past. It's terribly sad that she spent 40+ hours per week in a crate. As a show dog that means she was probably "working" (showing) on weekends. When was she allowed to just be a dog? Her second home sounds like it was a good one though. You certainly have some issues to deal with. It makes it easier I bet, knowing what she's been through. 
I don't know anything about Bark Busters but if you get a good feeling about it and they use praise and affection to train, it might be the perfect solution for you. It's good that they will work with your whole family too. 
I wish you the best and I hope the training will help Amy adjust, learn to trust and learn that she's finally in her forever home so it's okay to let her real personality shine through.


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## JanB

Jen, how sad for poor Amy. I guess I always assumed a show dog led a pretty pampered life. How lucky she is to have found you as her new family.

I've never heard of Bark Busters but I just spent some time at their web site and it looks pretty good. We apparently have a Bark Busters team here in town and they have been on some local news programs talking about dog training. (Where have I been, lol??) Anyway, they have received the endorsement of our local Humane Society as well as other dog organizations for their positive training methods. I'm sure you could ask for references from someone local to you.

Good luck and do let us know how it goes! And BTW, your posts aren't too long nor are they hard to get through. We care and are interested so please keep posting about Amy!


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## irnfit

Jen, so glad you are are getting some help for Amy. She looks like such a sweet dog. I think she was sent to you so you would help her and love her. From the info you got about her, you can see it isn't her fault. I think she is just really confused about how she is supposed to act.

The price doesn't seem unreasonable, especially for lifetime upkeep. Good luck and keep us posted.


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## Thumper

I agree w/ Susan!

When has she ever been able to be a dog? Crated and then off to shows (which are mostly in a crate or on a grooming table) Poor baby! :kiss: and then 2 litters during all that? 

No wonder she is insecure and needy. I think Bark Busters sounds pretty reasonably priced, I like that they guarantee follow ups at no cost. However, I do hope they can help fix some of the problems, but I do not think it will be overnight, I think Amy just needs time to know that she is now in her forever home and can relax, play and be a dog! And not be shuffled around. 

I remember when I first got Gucci she was very interested in just bonding with ME first and foremost and barely noticed my kids and husband, and I would spend alot of time sitting on the floor with the kids while they would play with her, etc. and they would also help w/ baths or walks, feeding, etc. It really DID help bring her around, she now is very excited to see the rest of the pack,

Yesterday, I went to go pick up my daughter (her car stalled) but my husband ended up there surprisingly!..So, I just headed home to finish dinner and she threw a FIT to leave them! lol, She now prefers the whole pack to be home!  It just takes time.

Kara


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## Lynn

When Kara said "Everything takes time" it reminded me of this morning...I had to take this picture because I honestly thought it would never it happen! These two are actually friends and will lay by each other. Casper use to run after the cat and the cat would try to attack him and we had to separate them. But with time we showed Casper what behavior was expected from him in regards to the cat (that I love dearly)....we had to work with Casper alot, but they are now good friends. It took awhile....


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## Doggie Nut

Lynn, that is such a sweet picture! Buddies!


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## Jane

Lynn, That is an amazing picture! They are so close together! And peaceful!


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## JanB

Lynn, how heartwarming it must be to finally see them be such good friends! What a sweet picture. Probably the most important thing I've learned from this forum is that dogs "personalities" aren't set, they can and do change. It gives hope to so many.


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## Lynn

JanB said:


> Lynn, how heartwarming it must be to finally see them be such good friends! What a sweet picture. Probably the most important thing I've learned from this forum is that dogs "personalities" aren't set, they can and do change. It gives hope to so many.


Honestly, that is what I want to show Jen with this picture.....Buster (the cat) had to sleep out in the garage the first winter Casper came home. There was just no way we could keep them in the same room. But this is Casper's second winter with us and Buster is now sleeping back in his chair in the bedroom at nights. It didn't come easily though....and I would say in general havanese dogs just want to chase cats until you teach them different.


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## Paige

Jen, what a sad life Amy has had. Thank goodness she is with you now. 

Helen(oreo's mom) I believe uses bark busters, I'm sure she would be glad to tell you about her experiences with them.

What a sweet picture of Casper and his new found friend.


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## irnfit

Lynn, not only do Casper and Kodi look alike, but I have an orange cat. His name is Jack. And I agree, I think they just like chasing them.


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## Thumper

Lynn, what a sweet picture and story!  They are just TOO cute together, yin and yang. And another story of patience perservering! I think some havs might be 'slower' than others to come around, but they do!

Kara


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## Brady's mom

Jen, you may want to put up a post and ask about Bark Busters. I remember seeing someone using them before. Poor Amy. It sounds like she has a lot of security issues and may need some time to feel safe with all of you. 

Lynn, what is the secret to get the dog to stop chasing the cat? Brady still thinks "splat kitty" is the greatest game in the world. The cats jump on a chair or run down the basement stairs (Brady won't even go down one step( to get away from him. They can hang out nicely in the room together, but sometimes Brady will just get in a zone and take off after them. Please tell me what you did to try to eliminate that behavior. I am doing something wrong because my poor kitties (who are my first children) still get tortured sometimes.


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## mom23girls

Lynn - what an adorable picture! That is definitely proof that attitudes and personalities can change. It's wierd, I always thought Amy seemed sort of sad, but never actually vocalized it, but My 4 year old (2 legged daughter) always would ask me the same thing. I'm so glad she's with us, I just hope that I can learn what I need to know to help her.


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## marjrc

Jen, how wonderful that you know a bit more about Amy's history and that you can start seeing the reason to some of her behaviors. Dogs communicate to us all the time, but we don't always know how to interpret their language. It sounds like Amy's had a lot to deal with, having two litters, then changing homes and now in a third home in 4 short years. I can't imagine having any dog in a crate 40+ hours/week, least of all a Havanese! They NEED human contact. The poor thing...... 

I do believe she's happened on a wonderful family now that will do their best to make her a part of their pack. It is great that you looked into private training as I believe she'd be too nervous/upset in a class full of other dogs right now. I think you'll need to go slowly with her, but in the end you will no doubt be greatly rewarded.  She is beautiful and we'd love to see more pics - hint, hint! 

There has been great advice already, and can't think of more to offer. I agree that it might be best to have her in your room at night, yes in a crate, but somewhere that she can see you and know she is safe. 

Good luck and please keep us posted! I think we all feel for you and for Amy and really care about how things turn out.


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## mckennasedona

Jen, I know you will probably think that this is waaay out there but I know a couple of people on this forum have used an animal communicator to help understand their dog's state of mind. Some swear by it, some think it has some merit and others pooh pooh it but who knows. I can't remember which threads the information was in though. Just thought I'd throw it out there.


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## SMARTY

Amy was never allowed to be a Puppy. No wonder she has issues with 2 litters at so young an age. I know nothing about the trainers you noted, hopefully someone on the forum does. The priceing and follow up seem very reasonable to me. Like others have said, it takes time......good luck


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## Lina

Jen, I am so glad that you got some insight into Amy's past! What a miserable life she led for a while there... I'm glad you were able to take her in and show her some love! I have heard great things about bark busters here in NYC. They're supposed to work really well. I'm pretty sure that Helen did use them so she would be a great person to ask.


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## whitBmom

Jen, I am sure a qualified behaviourist can help assess and recommend how to help Amy and kudos to you for doing all you can to help her. Amy is very lucky to have you in her life.

As for Barkbusters, I went with them and I paid over $500 for them and I will have to be honest, although we saw initial changes that I was quite happy with, their follow up not good at all. It seemed to me that they took my money and ran. Oreo seems to have dog-dog issues on the leash. He barks wildly and will pull the lead if I let him and then if not he will lunge. If the dog approaches he runs. These issues have not improved with Oreo at all and when I have called them to help me, my trainer is either solidly booked for 2 weeks or she is away and I cannot get a hold of her. I even called to complain to head office and they could not get a hold of her. They do not have a return policy, so once you have paid the money, that is it - you don't get it back. And I am finding that after the initial 45 min session, they offered no additional exercises for me to do and simply basic ones that need to be implemented here at home with no transition to outdoors. I am not happy and I find I have wasted my money. I will have to find and qualified behaviourist with references that can clearly assess what is exactly happening. I find if you pay per session, the person being paid actually has to work for each session and not take the large sum of money and dissappear. Jen, that is my two cents, and my advice is to really look into the 'behaviourist' they want to assign you to. Not all who claim to be behaviourists are, as we need to really research to avoid being taken like I have. I have learned the hard way.


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## pjewel

mom23girls said:


> You guys are great! Thank you again & again & again!!!! :dance:
> 
> Amy was co-owned by two women. She was at her first home from birth until about 5 or 6 months ago. In her first home, the owner kept her crated all day while she worked (she spent 40+ hours a week in a crate) She even delivered her first litter of puppies in a crate. It was during this time that they showed her. When she moved to her second home, she delivered her 2nd litter the very next day. In her second home, she was welcomed as part of the family and had full run of the house. She had many other dog friends, but apparently the owner worked with her lot to get her to come out of her shell. She said that she had a lot of security issues. Apparently, she was starting to come around and develop her personality when we got her. This explains a lot, like why she has no idea how to play with us. Also, I guess she's fearful of losing me, so needs me in sight.


I could cry for Amy, not only a miserable life for a havanese who needs contact with their humans, but the insecurity of having everything she's known in her whole life taken away from her. I can't tell you how glad I am that she has you to let her know the world is a better place and that she can trust -- finally. We're all pulling for you, and especially for Amy. :kiss:


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## Julie

Jen,
Sorry I just caught up with this thread.I do hope you are seeing some light at the end of the tunnel with Amy.I can't add any more advice,as I think everyone has posted such good ideas/advice for you already...but I can encourage you.:hug:

Hang in there and be persistant and consistant--do not change and give up.Amy will come around and love you all.She is a beauty and she will be the best dog for you and your family,she just needs months of being consistant.In the end--you'll see--she will exceed your expectactions...these havs are fabulous dogs.Know too,that had you started out with a puppy--you would have a longer time-frame.Hang in there!:hug:


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## marjrc

Helen, I'm sorry your experience turned out badly with Bark Busters. I am going to likely get someone to help us out with Ricky's barking as it is a huge problem for us all. The kids are totally annoyed by it and I get impatient and feel stressed out about it. I wasn't planning on getting someone from B.B., but it's good to know what to look out for. 

I just have to say that I think it's wonderful how everyone is trying to come up with advice, suggestions and sharing stories to help Jen and her family so they can do what's best for Amy in the long term. Many heads really are better than one! :biggrin1:

We're rooting for you, Jen!


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## luchetel

Wow! EVeryone has given such wonderful advice. I see that you are form upstate NY- I live in Westchester and had a wonderful trainer who also came to the house. The training was based individually on each time that she came- I believe it was 95 a session. We learned so much - We got Parker at 3 months old, but I do believe that much of Parkers' manners comes from the training of US! We came to understand the value of understanding the Pack, and how comforting it is for the dog to understand his place in our pack- he became so much more secure. It is so worth the time and money- And Amy is so lucky that you love her and have offered her the forever home. She will respond - patience and time- and the training of the family!
I also want to thank everyone else who has written to you- not only for their wonderful suggestions, but to hear from everyone that they too have some left over issues with their havs. I was able to get some advice for myself as well and to see that there are other dogs outthere who have similiar issues as Parker! Parker is so so shy of everyone outside of the family. He just stays away and wont come near ANYONE besides us. It is very sad because so many of our friends love dogs and they find it so hard that Parker wants nothing to do with them. :frusty: i think I need to make more parites when friends come over so that Parker will see it as a party for him!
Good Luck with Amy!  
Lynn


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## luchetel

OOPPS- i meant to say make "parties" for Parker!


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## mom23girls

Ok.. I know I've said it over & over, but THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH!! I printed out all these wonderful responses I've read them over and over & my husband and daughter have read them too. The support here is amazing & I'm so lucky to have found all of you...I'm sending all of you a great big virtual hug! :grouphug:

I have a bunch of phone calls in to trainers in this area, trying to get a better feel for their methods and what services they offer. I think Bark Busters depends 100% on whether you have a good trainer covering your area. BB did agree to come to the house for the consultation & obedience lesson (3 hours) for $195. We can then decide if we'll go ahead and pay the other $200 for the lifetime guarantee. After reading Oreo's Mom's post, I agree, people usually work better when you pay them per session, once the lump sum is paid, they do tend to lose the desire to be there for your every need (like they claim to be). I do like the idea of the "no treat" method & that's what they use.

Check out the gallery, I added a few pictures. I gave Amy a bath tonight, I've given her one quick one before, but this was a fullfledged bath with a blow dry too :biggrin1: I think I did ok for my first try. She's so sweet, she would stand there forever and just let me comb her!


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## Poornima

Hi Jen,
I came upon this thread now and you already have received wonderful advice and support. It is so wonderful that Amy has found her forever loving home with you. I wish you and Amy the best!

Best,
Poornima


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## Cheryl

Jen--I love your new avatar. I believe that between the advice you have received here and what ever a trainer has to offer, you will be seeing a new Amy by 2008. 

Enjoy your holidays with your new furbaby.


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## juliav

Jan,

I love your new avatar, you girls look so pretty!!


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## ivyagogo

Jen - Where are you in Upstate New York? Gryff has similar issues. He definitely prefers me above my husband and son. He gets annoyed with my son and growls, but he's never shown signs of aggression. I can tell you that at least in my case, it has gotten much better over time. Hang in there.


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## mom23girls

Hi Ivy - I live between Albany & Saratoga. You aren't too far from me, about an hour & a half. I almost went to SUNY New Paltz (many years ago..hehe). My family lives in the Athens/Coxsackie area. I was hoping that eventually I'd find someone on here that was nearby!


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## ivyagogo

Jen - I got Gryff from a breeder in Athens. If you're ever down this way and want to have a doggie date, let me know!


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## Lynn

mom23girls said:


> *It's wierd, I always thought Amy seemed sort of sad, but never actually vocalized it*, but My 4 year old (2 legged daughter) always would ask me the same thing. I'm so glad she's with us, I just hope that I can learn what I need to know to help her.


Jen,
I thought of something you might want to research that might help you with Amy....some of us have talked to a dog communicator to help us understand our dogs. If you do a search on the forum under "dog communicator" I found a couple of threads that I think you might find interesting.

I spoke with a dog communicator on Casper and it really helped me understand him....I never did post what was said because it did not reflect will on his breeder, but it did help me to understand him alot better.

Here is a thread that you might find interesting.

//havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=1821&higshttp:hlight=communicatorpoke


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## Lynn

Let's see if this works better-
http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=1821&highlight=communicator


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## Sherman

*hey mom23girls!*

Hi! I just noticed that we must live near each other. I live between Albany and Saratoga too! I'm the one who wanted to give my dog away a couple of weeks ago. I live in Malta, just off Exit 12 from the Northway. Sherman would love to play with your dog! 
Thanks, Carol


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## mom23girls

Thanks Lynn - I will definitely check that out later tonight when I have time to read in peace & quiet (after kids go to bed)

Ivy - I'd love to do that! Of course, if you ever make it up this way, I'd love to have you over & have the pups meet. Amy loves other dogs! I practically grew up in Athens, my grandparents lived on South Franklin street. I have so many fond memories of that area.


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## mom23girls

Hi Carol! I've been away from my computer for a few days & just saw your post...I'm SO EXCITED that you live so close!! :whoo: I'd love to get the pups together!! I live in Rexford, off exit 10. You're probably 10 minutes from me!

My email is [email protected]. Drop me a line & we should definitely plan something. -Jen


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## mom23girls

Hi....I've been missing for a few days due to Christmas & all the craziness! I just wanted to update you on the training situation.

I've talked to SO many different trainers with many different ideas, but I decided on the trainer from Bark Busters. She was so upbeat and professional. We decided to have her come for the 2 hour session & then see if we want to buy into the lifetime guarantee. I just really liked her no-pressure attitude. I had a few people tell me that Amy is basically "hopeless", that her personality has been stifled for so long that she will "never reach her full potential", that she'll probably always be depressed and never truly bond with anyone. Nice huh? A woman overheard me talking to the receptionist at my chiropractor's office this morning (the receptionist just rescued a lab). This woman asked why in the world would we adpot a dog like Amy? I swear, some people are so insensitive! 

Anyhow...I'm in the process of making a list of things we hope to accomplish during the session. She's coming New Year's Eve at 3:30, so keep your fingers crossed for us!! I hope this helps.


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## ama0722

Wow dedicated on NYE! I think you did the right thing by going who you felt the most comfortable with. As you know Amy better than anyone! Also blah to other people, there are dogs who have lived in cages for years who become family pets. While it is a lot of hard work and you do have to consider the personality, temperament, etc. You can always do behavior modification. Keep us posted on how the appointment goes and Dora crosses her paws that Amy likes this trainer as well as you did!

Amanda


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## JanB

Amy, Wow, some people are so insensitive and thoughtless. Dogs do change, as so many rescues demonstrate. From your previous posts it sounds like Amy is bonding with you already. You've certainly done your homework and are obviously committed to helping Amy. We're all rooting for you. Good luck!


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## Lina

Amy, some people are just ignorant. And I'm sure they are the same type of people who will buy a dog from a pet store as a Christmas gift and then take it to the pound 6 months later when they decide that they really can't deal with it after all. You are a wonderful mom to Amy and you should be proud that you are willing to work with her though her problems. Hopefully the trainer will give you some great ideas and she will be well adjusted with hard work and dedication. Good luck! :hug:


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## Rita

Sorry Jen I just came across this thread I must have missed it before.:frusty: Everyone gave you great advice though.

UGH. People do say the most stupid insensitive things. They just don't think before they speak.

I think you should be highly commended. You gave a dog a chance and not too many people would do that. Plus you are trying everything to help her. You are a super good Mommy.:biggrin1:

Good luck with Amy. Keep us posted.


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## Brady's mom

Jen,
I am sorry that you have come accross so many insensitive people. I can't help but think that Amy just needs some time to come out of her shell. I was thinking that dogs are rescued at older ages than Amy from Puppymills and they take some time, but you hear often how they come out of their shell and turn into wonderful pets. And those are dogs who are truly coming from horrible environments. Maybe one of the Hav rescue organizations would have some ideas for you on how to help Amy come out of her shell. They deal with placing older dogs all the time.

Good luck with the new trainer. I hope she is able to give you some good ideas.


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## Lynn

Hi Jen,

I am so excited for your first class with the train! Please let us know how it all goes. 

It is hard to believe people can be so insensitve, I hope you didn't get to upset....not worth it. Go for the positive out come!


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## luv3havs

People can say such stupid things.
I'm betting a year from now, with all the love and attention, and training you are doing, you will have a fabulous pet.
Amy is a good dog, and you have a lot to work with.

Happy New Year!


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## mom23girls

Karen - that's an excellent idea, to ask someone involved in Hav rescue. A big problem I'm running into is that people don't know much about this breed. It would be great to talk to an "expert" in rescue since they know the personality characteristics (in general). The woman at my Dr's office was saying how "tough" Havs are and how they aren't good with kids. So much the opposite is true! Again, thanks to all of you for your support. I'm so excited about meeting the trainer....Amy's behavior seems to worsen if I leave the house & that's frustrating, but I'm just trying to stay positive. I know it will all work out. -jen


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## Lynn

mom23girls said:


> Amy's behavior seems to worsen if I leave the house & that's frustrating, but I'm just trying to stay positive. I know it will all work out. -jen


Jen,
This is a pretty common issue alot of us deal with....Hav's like to be with their companion and they let us know. Try leaving Jen with a Kong filled with her favorite food, next time you go. Casper was the worst at leaving of all the dogs on the forum and it took us along time to work though it, but I can leave him now....and he is ok with it.


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## pjewel

Jen,

I get so angry at anyone who engages his/her tongue before his/her brain is in gear. And, did you ever notice how everyone is an expert . . . at everything. I remember many years ago when I was going through a difficult time with allergies and every Tom, Dick and Harry was telling me what was wrong, I called my allergist one day with the latest theory and he said, "everyone's a doctor, but find yourself a good plumber." It's kinda the same thing.

I have such a good feeling about your Amy and I can tell you a general truth. In life, whether we expect good things or bad we're generally not disappointed. Keep up the positive thoughts and my fingers are crossed for both of you with this trainer. Let us know how it goes.


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## mckennasedona

Jen,
Ignore the naysayers. Some people give up too easily on everything. Amy has a lot to overcome so it will take time and you sound like the perfect family to give her that time and the behavior training she needs. I can't wait to hear how it goes with the trainer. Best of luck to you and to sweet Amy.


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## irnfit

Thanks for not giving up on Amy. She looks like such a sweet girl. I'm sure you have seen the real dog that Amy can be, and hopefully the trainer will help. Good luck and keep us updated.


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## Poornima

Good luck, Jen! It is so wonderful that you are giving Amy a loving home while being so patient until she can be your perfect little furbaby. Wish you all the best with the trainer!


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## Leslie

mom23girls said:


> Karen - that's an excellent idea, to ask someone involved in Hav rescue. A big problem I'm running into is that people don't know much about this breed. *It would be great to talk to an "expert" in rescue since they know the personality characteristics (in general).* The woman at my Dr's office was saying how "tough" Havs are and how they aren't good with kids. So much the opposite is true! Again, thanks to all of you for your support. I'm so excited about meeting the trainer....Amy's behavior seems to worsen if I leave the house & that's frustrating, but I'm just trying to stay positive. I know it will all work out. -jen


Jen~ Amanda can point you in the right direction, if she, herself, can't help you. She's involved w/Hav Rescue. You can PM her and ask for her assistance.


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## Cosmosmom

Congratulations .. It sounds like you are on the right track . I agree with the advice here and also the comments regarding the negative comments and naysayers ..
I was so lucky witht the woman I found as well . Last year Cosmo would just bark at the workmen and he would go nowwhere near them . WE had so many issues . Now he thinks he is on of the boys and he wants to go up and say Hello and hang out .. 
He still has a shy moment or two but not many .. He rarely barks at people unless he is protecting me or the house .. HE does bark to communicate however .
He now rides in the car without getting sick .. It took a lot of time and patience and socialization and of course our buddy and little love Ahnold was a big help as well . 
I had a wonderful Behaviourist who worked with me and she made me laugh and she also put things in perspective . She came twice a week for three weeks and it was the best money I ever spent ..
I have read so many books and watched so many videos but it was worth it . I have learned so much and I know I still have a lot to learn .. I do see light at the end of the tunnel .
Now I also have a wonderful petsitter who spells me and she adores the dogs and she is eager to help in any way she can including training and walking socializing . 
The fact that you are so positive and commited and ready willing and able to take on Amy is fantastic .. I bet next New Years Day you will be writing us to tell us what a amazing dog she is and how far she has come .. maybe a therapy dog ??
Keep us posted !!


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang

All of us over here - two- and four-legged are rooting for you and Amy to succeed! Forget those ignorant people. They just don't understand that when a person is really committed to something or someone, then they go that extra mile to make it work.

Kudos to you for doing this!

Wanda


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## JanB

Amy, I'm looking forward to hearing how your session goes today. The best of luck; sending a prayer and keeping my fingers crossed for you!


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## mom23girls

Hi Everybody and Happy New Year!! I'm probably the only one whose hanging around on the internet tonight, but we're boring in our old age I guess :biggrin1:.

So, the trainer came tonight and we learned so much. Actually, I learned how much I don't know & how much I have yet to learn! She had a very interesting technique, which I'm sure those of you who have used Bark Busters are familiar with. In a nutshell, they don't use treats, they show you how to use your voice to correct unwanted behavior. (eg...being underfoot when I'm cooking, interferring with me dressing my daughter in the morning, barking at the door) 

She focused mainly on the issue of Amy seeing me as her pack leader. She said that Amy is rather submissive and is uncomfortable with being "in charge". I had no idea that much of my behavior was showing her that she was in charge of me. I was really just trying to give her a lot of love and attention to help ease her nerves when actually, I was causing her to feel more anxious. She showed me how to keep her out from under my feet in the kitchen by giving her, her own "place" & telling her to stay. Of course, this worked like a charm while the trainer was here, but as soon as she left, Amy was wiped out & confused and didn't know which way was up!! Am I just a complete idiot when it comes to training a dog????? She never said that of course, but everything she told me to do was basically the opposite of my own natural instinct! She stressed the importance of only petting and giving her attention when I call her to me, not when she jumps (another big NO-No!!) and "asks" for it. In doing that, I was showing her that she's in charge. She also said that she shouldn't be allowed on the furniture unless I invite her & give permisssion. This is tricky since she loves to jump on the chairs in the family room. Also, I'm not supposed to carry her around anymore...not that I did it all the time, but after the kids went to bed, I'd walk around with her & hug her.

Everthing she said made a lot of sense. I just hope that I can do a good enough job! I was impressed with how professional she was. I'm glad we chose her. Like she said, we all need to commit 100% to all the techniques she gave us in order for this to work. I'm definitely ready to give it my best shot!:biggrin1:

Again, thank you for your support and all the best for a Happy & Healthy New Year!!


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## BeverlyA

It sounds like you had a great session!eace: The key will be in the consistency. It will be sooo worth it though in the long run.

You'll be a wonderful dog mommy and she'll be a wonderful dog!

Beverly


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## JanB

Jen, we're boring too :biggrin1: And I actually like it that way, I'm not a big NYE fan, lol!

After reading your post my first thought was "yikes, I'm doing it all wrong too!" :biggrin1: And interestingly, I just read a book today I got from the library "Surviving Your Dog's Adolescence" and many of the things you mentioned : no treats, using voice and praise, being pack leader, using sit-stay to relieve anxiety, giving attention only when YOU decide, giving permission to be on furniture...etc, are in this book too. Maybe I am getting a message to change my ways too :biggrin1:

No, you're not an idiot!! But I do think you have to work on things slowly and maybe not all those things at once. The book I read suggested keeping a notebook on the things you're working on so you can see progress and expecting your dog to work only for short periods of time several times a day. Amy was probably just exhausted after your session.

I'm so glad it was a positive experience for you! I look forward to reading about her progress :whoo:


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## Jane

Hi Jen,

I'm glad you had an informative session. And, no, you aren't an idiot at all! Establishing dominance isn't obvious and it is very easy to do things to send the "wrong" message since these havs are so cute and cuddly (and we are humans, not dogs!). And, there will be a day when all is well and Amy understands her place and you *will* be able to carry her around and hug her, so don't despair that you won't be able to do any of these things ever again. Just for right now while you are establishing how things go, you will need to be consistent. I was also doing many things that sent the message to Lincoln that HE was the leader, like going up to him while he was resting, to pet him and give him affection, stepping over him or going around him if he was lying on the floor in my way, petting him or responding to him when he barked for something like food or attention, etc.

Amy is such a beautiful girl and we are all rooting for you. This alpha thing can be very hard! But you have some great advice and others on the forum who are good "alphas" can give you support as you go forward. Good luck!


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## Rita

Jen, sounds like the lesson went great. No you are not an idiot. It is hard not to put these cute little fur balls up on a pedestal. Plus given Amy's situation you only did what comes natural - shower her with more love. 

I think in a few months, you will see an amazing change. Keep us posted.


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## irnfit

So glad you had a positive session. As you found out, it's not about training the dog. It's about teaching you what to do. Good luck with the rest of the training. Don't get too :frusty: - it was only your first time. Amy probably was confused, because your actions were so different that how you normally are. If you are consistent, she will learn. They are very smart.


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## mom23girls

Ok...how can this be? When the trainer was here, Amy did everything exactly as she said she should. Since she left, she flat out refuses to do ANYTHING!!!!! I'm supposed to call her to me and then stand up and tell her "place" and she's supposed to sit on her blanket. She stands there and stares at me & refuses to budge. I'm not supposed to pick her up or touch her, so basically, I'm stuck. I honestly can't tell if it's flat out defiance or fear. She's licking her lips and appears a little shaky but will then turn her head away from me (I'm guessing thats the equivalent of giving me the middle paw,so to speak) I just left a message for the trainer. I just can't believe how she did a total 180 as soon as we were alone with her!!! I guess I'm not going to have to worry about her being underfoot since she won't come anywhere near me now! :frusty::frusty::frusty: ahhhh!!!!


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## Lynn

Jen,

Do you ever watch Ceasar the dog trainer of tv? I watched him last week and he spend 3 wks training two dogs for this couple, took the dogs back to their home with their family and they were good while Ceasar was there and when Ceasar left within minutes they were fighting again. Ceasar had to come back and work with the dogs again.

So, don't feel bad or get discouraged. Ceasar is the expert and if it happens to him it can happen to anyone.


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## pjewel

Jen,

It has to be confusing for Amy. Give her, and yourself time to turn things around. Think of it as trying to learn a foreign language. You don't learn it in a day. I've had dogs trained in the past and it always amazed me how quickly they would respond to what the trainer wanted. Yet when I tried it afterward, they would look at me as if "huh?" 

Let her know she's loved, and above all safe, and you'll be surprised how much you'll both accomplish as time goes on. I'm wishing you all a wonderful and happy new year.


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## irnfit

It's just like when I would leave my kids with my Mom. She would tell me they were such angels while I was gone. As soon as I came back, the devils showed up.


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## Paige

Jen, I do alot of the things your trainer told you and a few others. I start the day I bring my puppy home and it takes time for them to understand what you want. It has to be repetative, for weeks and months. Little by little you will see she understands what you expect of her. She doesn't understand our language no more than you understand hers, so it takes time. 

I don't understand the not picking her up part. If you want her to go lay somewhere while you are cooking and she won't go, I don't see where it would hurt to pick her up and put her there and tell her stay and use a hand signal for stay. After she understands what you want then go to just telling her. but you may have to put her there for a week before she understands that is what you want.

Don't give up and don't expect too much too soon, you will just become frustrated. Dogs are like toddlers, and they take awhile to understand and obey us.


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## mckennasedona

I'm glad you had a successful session. I'm confused though. Does the trainer expect that Amy will do things like go to her spot in one day? You can't pick her up and put her there and put her in a sit/stay? 

I can see that we do most everything wrong. I do move my dogs if they are in my way but I do pick them up often and we do let them hang out on the furniture. I'll let them jump into my lap. Can you tell I love cuddling and hugging them?  I'll be interested in your further reports. I've got a lot to learn apparently.


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## davetgabby

Yes the feeding by others is important but the walk should be by the others too.


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## davetgabby

Let the others do the feeding but especially the walks to get them socialized with the others


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## JanB

mom23girls said:


> I honestly can't tell if it's flat out defiance or fear. She's licking her lips and appears a little shaky but will then turn her head away from me (I'm guessing thats the equivalent of giving me the middle paw,so to speak)


Jen, My Sheltie used to turn her head to the side and not look at me when she thought she was in trouble. She was a very obedient and submissive dog, so for her it was a submissive gesture. Eye contact is considered an aggressive move in dog speak. If Amy is shaking as well, then submission would be my best guess. She probably just doesn't know what you want her to do and it's scaring her, esp if she's seeing a change in your demeanor.

I kind of agree, how will she know what you want her to do with no treats, praise, or physically showing her?

Given Amy's background I would think you would need to continue to show her that she is very much loved. I think Havs, more than other breeds, need the physical contact and hugging.

Good luck! Did the trainer call back?


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## JASHavanese

mom23girls said:


> She focused mainly on the issue of Amy seeing me as her pack leader. She said that Amy is rather submissive and is uncomfortable with being "in charge".


I haven't made it through the whole thread but have you looked at Nothing In Life Is Free? You can google/yahoo NILF and find it. It's so easy to follow the NILF system to show that you're the pack leader. There are so many innocent things that people do and to the dog it shows them that they're alpha and can leave them confused. Hang in there, it sounds like everything is going to work out fine for you both.


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## mom23girls

Hi! My dumb computer kept crashing yesterday everytime I went to post! So...I did talk to the trainer last night & I guess it's ok for me to physically move her to her place if I have to. I read your post, Paige & you were 100% right...she kept looking at me like "what do want me to do?" Physically showing her helped. I only made her "stay" for a few minutes, but saw that as a huge triumph!! I've been calling her over for extra hugs and belly rubs so she doesn't think I'm totally cold hearted!! She's actually downstairs eating in her crate right now...amazing! The trainer said to scatter the food on the crate floor & let her go in to associate it with something positive.

Jan, I think she was turning her head because she was afraid too. I couldn't tell if it was a defiant head turn (like my kids do) or if in dog language, it meant she was being submissive. 

JASHavanese, I'm going to google NILF, as you suggested, thank you!

We're back to our regular school schedule today, so things will be a little more "normal" starting today.


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## Paige

Jen, I am glad that it helped. I would also give her a favorite toy, something to play/chew on, so she associates it as a good place to be. You will see, one day she will go lay there on her own, when she see you are getting ready to cook. Hang in there, your a great Hav mom.


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## ama0722

Amy,
I am glad you found some exercises and ways to clearly communicate to Amy her place in the pack. I had that issue with Isabelle and she is now a much steady dog (well comparatively!) I think a lot of times, dogs possess the people they are being held or laps they are on so that one makes sense. Belle doesn't have issues with people (actually quite the opposite problem!) but she does with dogs. So if there is a dog around and Belle is acting aggressive, I will not hold her, will not put her on my lap otherwise I am asking for problems.

Are you allowed to be positive and fun? Have a party and get her to come to you... I found that to work the best especially if you don't have treats.

Also, don't be afraid to tell your trainer something isn't working for you. The same exercises don't work for each dog and I am sure your trainer has other ways. That is the fun part about training though. Figuring out how to communicate and boy, does it build a bond!

Licking, sniffing, etc are usually actually all signs of fear rather than signs of stubbornness. It is always a lot easier to see it in a dog not owned by you. 

Good luck and keep us posted on her progress! The crate is the one thing I really wish I would have developed with my girls but I am lazy about it!

Amanda


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## irnfit

Cesar did a whole segment on head posturing in one of his episodes. It was so enlightening. I wish I could remember which show it was. When you see him do the head turns and the faces he makes, explaining as he does it, then the light goes on and you totally understand what the dog is saying.


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## marjrc

Jen, I am glad you got some training help and it sounds like you and Amy will eventually figure things out. Keep at it and do call her when you have questions. I'm inspired by your dedication to make this work. I also need some training help, though I would suffer terribly if I was told to have the dogs NOT go on the couches! I love that part of owning a dog, the snuggling. 

Good luck and keep us posted!


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