# Litter Box



## Steve Cappelson (Nov 6, 2019)

Nanu's breeder has accustomed him and his litter mates to using a litter box in there expen. I have heard some Havanese pups are quite good at using a litter box. Does anyone have any "litter" thoughts or experiences to share?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I wouldn’t have it any other way!

Mine were all litter box trained by their breeders. Of course we had to continue reinforcing good potty habits when they came home, but that good start was invaluable. All easily learned to potty outdoors when it was appropriate without much encouragement beyound a happy “Good Puppy!!!” when caught in the act. All, eventually got to the point where they PREFER. To potty outdoors, but we also made a conscious effort to maintain their “indoor potty skills” (something not everone does) because it is something we value highly.

We live in New England, and we like, when we come down stairs to a foot of new snow in the morning, to be able to tell them, “You’ll have to use the potty this morning, kids!” They sigh, but they do. 

It has also helped in other “pinches”. Normally, if we will be out for a full day, we have a pet sitter come in to let them out once or twice to potty and play. But there was a time, (we only had Kodi then) when Dave had a massive heart attack while hiking in thw White Mountains. He had to be air lifted to the nearest cardiac center, which was 2 hours from our home. While he was in the hospital, I was making the daily round trip to be with him, and I could not arrange dog care on short notice. So Kodi was gated in my offoce with his water, his litter box an d some toys for 12-14 hours a day. Certainly not ideal for any of us, but we all survived, and he never had a single accident. You can’t possibly do that with a dog that is not litter box trained!

(Can you tell I’m a fan?  )


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## Steve Cappelson (Nov 6, 2019)

Great! So what sort of box do you use and what type of litter do you prefer? Also I see a lot of differing opinions on how easy/difficult it is to house break a Havanese???


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Steve Cappelson said:


> Great! So what sort of box do you use and what type of litter do you prefer? Also I see a lot of differing opinions on how easy/difficult it is to house break a Havanese???


Unfortunately, The litter boxes I have are both discontinued, so I'm not much help. If I had to do it now, I think I'd probably get a tray similar to this:

https://smile.amazon.com/Tierra-Gar...?keywords=Potting+tray&qid=1574693889&sr=8-30

and then put something similar to this:

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B07GC8N...jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

cut to fit over the litter. (I just quickly found these on Amazon... look around, there could very well be better choices)

We have a UgoDog (pee pad tray, now discontinued) that is deep enough that you can spread a layer of pellets and still put the grate on. That is what we use in our travel trailer. So it's worth looking into those too. Other people on the forum might be able to tell you if there are other brands of currently available potty trays that will accommodate pellets as well as pee pads. (I don't like pee pads for two reasons... they are bad for the environment (the plastic is not biodegradeable), and they stink as soon as they are peed on once  )

The litter part is easy. It's just pine pellet horse bedding. The brand name is Equine Pine. But the kind I use is the store brand sold by Tractor Supply Store. If you have a puppy that won't ingest it you can use it in an open litter box. Many won't... I have two that won't touch it, and one that will get himself in trouble with it if we aren't careful. Ingesting a pine pellet here and there won't hurt the puppy in the least. But you don't want them swallowing a bunch, which could then swell in their tummy, causing an impaction. If you have a covered box with a grate, you really don't have to limit yourself to the pine pellets and can use any wood stove pellets. You don't know what kind of wood is used in wood stove pellets, so there is always the possibility of a toxic wood if there is ANY chance of the puppy picking up a stray piece. We just use the TSS stuff because it's close and cheap.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Steve Cappelson said:


> Great! So what sort of box do you use and what type of litter do you prefer? Also I see a lot of differing opinions on how easy/difficult it is to house break a Havanese???


Oh, and as far as how difficult is it? I did not find it difficult. (and really, this is no different for a Havanese than any other small breed dog, and they are FAR easier than some toy breeds!) It just takes time. (and the amount of time varies as much with puppies as it does with small children) I think it is as difficult or as easy as you make it. The more diligent you are from the very beginning about supervision and confinement the faster the puppy will be reliable, and the more freedom you can give them... with the goal being as close to "errorless" potty training as you can possibly make it. Understanding that there will ALWAYS be mistakes, so give yourself a break when they happen!  ...they just should be few and far between! But also understand that every mistake also sets back your training (which is really a matter of forming good habits (teaching the puppy where he SHOULD go) which is why it is so important to avoid them.

The people who have trouble are those who give the puppy too much freedom too soon, especially if the puppy is successful in a small space in the first few weeks and they consider the puppy "trained". They are often in for a rude surprise. Go slowly in expanding territory. Supervision means full attention, eyes-on. Not watching TV while the puppy plays loose on the first floor, or even in the room with you. If you can't give eyes-on, full-attention supervision, that's fine. No one can all the time. Then the puppy belongs in his ex-pen, with his potty box.

I didn't give ANY of mine unsupervised full-house freedom for over a year, even though there were no mistakes for months before that. But part of the reason that there WERE no mistakes was that I was cautious.  And, quite honestly, mine STILL are always gated in my office when we are out of the house because I feel that they are safer in a smaller, more confined space. You never know what will get into even an adult dog's head when left to their own devices for an extended period!


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## Steve Cappelson (Nov 6, 2019)

Absolutely terrific information! 
I agree with the confinement approach. We don't plan to take our eyes off of him anyway as cute as he seems to be! But seriously, putting the hard work in off the bat is crucial to us for all the apparent reasons you all have pointed out to us. We want a solid and happy citizen for years to come!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Steve Cappelson said:


> Absolutely terrific information!
> I agree with the confinement approach. We don't plan to take our eyes off of him anyway as cute as he seems to be! But seriously, putting the hard work in off the bat is crucial to us for all the apparent reasons you all have pointed out to us. We want a solid and happy citizen for years to come!


You won't be sorry! It's SO worth the effort!!!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

These are the litter boxes we use. This is a higher price than I've ever paid for one, but sometimes they aren't available at all. I've even made them from Sterilite boxes when they weren't available.
I try to stock up on them, for puppy buyers, when I catch them at a good price.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

This is a little less painful, if you are planning to get two anyway. It's very convenient to have more than one.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Don't even consider getting the Second Nature dog litter. We started out with that, 20 years ago, or whenever they came out with it. It's recycled newspaper pellets. It turns to mush at the bottom, and really stinks.

The Pine Pellets have almost no odor at all, and where it gets wet, it just turns back to sawdust, which indicates what needs to be taken out, and the rest stays fresh.


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## Steve Cappelson (Nov 6, 2019)

Thanks Tom!
My dear better half is already talking about a second Havi. I told her to curb her enthusiasm. Don't tell her but if this goes close to plan I might be open to it 😬


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## Steve Cappelson (Nov 6, 2019)

Pine pellets is what Nanu's breeder is using and recommends too.
Is there a recyclable litter tray anyone can recommend?


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I meant having more than one litter box. I think these are recyclable. I believe they are even made out of recycled plastic.


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## Steve Cappelson (Nov 6, 2019)

Okay, I see. Thanks! Still, she is suggesting a second dog perhaps a year from now.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

I use Bylss Pet's Klean Paws Indoor Dog Potty, can be found on Amazon. It's a small tray and fits in smaller places: 21.5" L x 15.5" W x 1.25" H. It snaps down easily over the Equine Pine Pellets and has a grate on top so the dog doesn't track the pine pellets out of the tray. The pellets turn into saw dust when the dog pees on it. 

I also use the Richell Paw Tray Mesh Training Tray, also, on Amazon. It's larger 25.2 x 18.9 x 1.6 inches. 

Here's a New One that looks interesting: WMM-Pet toilet Outdoor Indoor Pet Litterbox, on Amazon. It has sides and a grate. Comes in a small and large size. 

You do not need a thick layer of pellets. IN fact a single later of pellets works very well. The expand with wet and turn to saw dust. I scoop out the saw dust and add more pellets. Because there's no odor you can go several days without replacing the pellets. At times pellets are inconvenient such as when traveling and staying in hotels, I use potty pads in the trays. 

I'm sooooooo! glad Karen kept encouraging me to stick with indoor potty trying. #1 - It's quicker and easier that outdoor potty traying. #2 - There are times when it's just more convenient if the dog can potty indoors.

Patti, will be 2 years old, around Mar 1. We have a fenced yard and a doggie door and she can go outside when needed. Patti now prefers to go outside (without training). The last week we drove up to the Rocky Mountains, where we have a small three story condo, and NO yard. It's SUPER inconvenient to walk her three or four times a day on good days. When it snows that a whole other story. Patti easily switched from outdoor to her indoor potty tray.


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## Steve Cappelson (Nov 6, 2019)

Very, very good and much thanks for the information!
We downsized to a small condo. Left the fenced backyard and pet door behind. Even though walking him will be no problem it’s good to have this option as well.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tom King said:


> This is a little less painful, if you are planning to get two anyway. It's very convenient to have more than one.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N5FEAGQ/ref=psdc_2975299011_t3_B00G7RMCJ2


Should have figured Tom would know the best thing available NOW! 

And I agree... having more than one is invaluable unless you live in a TINY apartment!

Tom, have you figured a way to put a grate over these?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tom King said:


> Don't even consider getting the Second Nature dog litter. We started out with that, 20 years ago, or whenever they came out with it. It's recycled newspaper pellets. It turns to mush at the bottom, and really stinks.
> 
> The Pine Pellets have almost no odor at all, and where it gets wet, it just turns back to sawdust, which indicates what needs to be taken out, and the rest stays fresh.


I made that mistake - just once - too, when I couldn't get wood pellets. HORRIBLE stuff.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Steve Cappelson said:


> Pine pellets is what Nanu's breeder is using and recommends too.
> Is there a recyclable litter tray anyone can recommend?


Whether they are recyclable or not, mine are 10 years old, and still in service. So, while it's obviously nice if they are ALSO recycleable, this is something you will be using for a long, long time, unless you decided to eventually go the completely outdoor route. Just remember, if you do that, I have never heard of ANYONE being able to talk their dog into going back to using a litter box once they've stopped.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Steve Cappelson said:


> Okay, I see. Thanks! Still, she is suggesting a second dog perhaps a year from now.


From personal experience, I think a couple of years between puppies is optimal, because then the older dog is really mature, and can actually help you train the younger one. (potty training the younger one is SOOOO much easier when it's "monkey see monkey do"!)

But a one year old dog may be full size, but it is not a fully mature dog. it's like an adolescent child. It still has lots of MENTAL growing up to do. By two, they are much more mature! I have two that are 8 months apart, but it wasn't planned. It was a case of the right dog at the wrong time, and we made it work. It DID work, but there were some things that were exhausting about having two almost-puppies at the same time.

Plus, getting them 2 years apart allows you to really, fully enjoy the puppyhood of each one separately, with a little break in between. And there really IS a lot to enjoy!!! (I waited even longer between my first two (and I DID know I wanted two... I started planning for the second figuring I wanted them about 5 years apart, but then Pixel took 6 years to happen!  )


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

krandall said:


> Should have figured Tom would know the best thing available NOW!
> 
> And I agree... having more than one is invaluable unless you live in a TINY apartment!
> 
> *Tom, have you figured a way to put a grate over these?*


If you wanting sides and a deeper tray with a GRATE, these litter boxes look like a good option. There are a numerous options. Expensive! but I definitely would consider one of these if I'd known about them two years ago ... and Knew What I Know Now. Like Karen has said, if you indoor-potty train a dog you have these for a long time. I'm going to take another look at these trays, even though I have four different brands. Grrrrr!

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=WMM-Pet+toilet+Outdoor+Indoor+Pet+Litterbox,&ref=nb_sb_noss


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## Steve Cappelson (Nov 6, 2019)

Yes we are in a small single story Condo. One box should do the job for us. We plan to keep it in his ex-pen at least to start with. That's Nanu's current arrangement at our breeders home so I think he would be comfortable keeping it that way. The pen he has been in with his litter mates is much larger than ours. I wonder if a pan in the smaller pen will be too cramped?


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Steve Cappelson said:


> Yes we are in a small single story Condo. One box should do the job for us. We plan to keep it in his ex-pen at least to start with. That's Nanu's current arrangement at our breeders home so I think he would be comfortable keeping it that way. The pen he has been in with his litter mates is much larger than ours. I wonder if a pan in the smaller pen will be too cramped?


There are different sizes of potty trays. In the beginning ... the puppy is tiny and a small pen seems big. As they grow they take up more space. You'll figure it out.

In my case, I had a 3x6ft ex-pen. In the beginning, I put two potty trays inside to took up space. Soon, I removed one, which left about four feet of space where Patti had her toys, food & water bowls and blanket.

My ex-pen door opened into a kitchen-family room area that had a tile floor. There are two doors into this room, one doorway was closed off with the ex-pen door, the other with a gate. The ex-pen door was left opened when there were people in the room who had eyes on her. Patti moved in and out of the ex-pen to play during those times.

When we left that room or when Patti became annoying, we put her in the ex-pen and closed its door.

Patti learned quickly how to get back to the potty tray, and would return to the ex-pen to do her business when out and about in that one room.

At one time I had five gates up around the house plus the ex-pen and a sleeping crate. Our house was like an obstacle course.

It's temporary. Most everything came down and was put away around 10-months. We still have a couple gates up. One blocks the grandson's room because they have a lot of expensive things like Ear Buds, that Patti will steal, play with and damage. Another blocks the room to the doggie door, for times when we don't want her to go outside.

I recently put away the Sleeping Crate. Patti started sleeping with us when she was about 5-6 months old. I kept the Sleeping Crate up, which was a wire crate for a while and occasionally used it when Patti got the "Zombies" and was out of control. I'd stick her in there for a few minutes ... then let her out. She got the message and settled down.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

krandall said:


> Should have figured Tom would know the best thing available NOW!
> 
> And I agree... having more than one is invaluable unless you live in a TINY apartment!
> 
> Tom, have you figured a way to put a grate over these?


We haven't really needed to. Once in a while, if one of the dogs has some sort of tummy issue going on, they will eat the litter. We just mist it with Bitter Apple, and that's the end of that. It turns them off of it enough that they don't even go back to check. Fortunately, we've never had any kind of long term tummy issue.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Tom King said:


> We haven't really needed to. Once in a while, if one of the dogs has some sort of tummy issue going on, they will eat the litter. We just mist it with Bitter Apple, and that's the end of that. It turns them off of it enough that they don't even go back to check. Fortunately, we've never had any kind of long term tummy issue.


The purpose of a grate on top of the pellets is preventing saw dust and pellets getting caught in the dog's hair and paws, then tracked out of the litter box on the floor. Not sure anyone is worried about the dogs eating the pellets. At least, that isn't my reason for having a grate on top of the potty trays.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tom King said:


> We haven't really needed to. Once in a while, if one of the dogs has some sort of tummy issue going on, they will eat the litter. We just mist it with Bitter Apple, and that's the end of that. It turns them off of it enough that they don't even go back to check. Fortunately, we've never had any kind of long term tummy issue.


I ended up with the ONE who is a "confirmed litter eater" if he's got a tummy ache. Like other dogs eat grass. <roll eyes> I have to watch Kodi like a hawk if there is an open litter box, so the grates just give me peace of mind.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> The purpose of a grate on top of the pellets is preventing saw dust and pellets getting caught in the dog's hair and paws, then tracked out of the litter box on the floor. Not sure anyone is worried about the dogs eating the pellets. At least, that isn't my reason for having a grate on top of the potty trays.


It's my MAIN reason in the house. In the trailer, with the shallow Ugo Dog, my reason is the same as yours... Pellets HURT! LOL!

The deeper boxes really prevent much movement of pellets or sawdust out of the box, though. It's never a problem with the open one we have up in our bedroom. (we can have that one uncovered because Kodi is never up there unsupervised)


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

krandall said:


> It's my MAIN reason in the house. In the trailer, with the shallow Ugo Dog, my reason is the same as yours... Pellets HURT! LOL!
> 
> The deeper boxes really prevent much movement of pellets or sawdust out of the box, though. It's never a problem with the open one we have up in our bedroom. (we can have that one uncovered because Kodi is never up there unsupervised)


That's interesting the saw dust and pellets don't get caught in the dog's hair or paws and tracked out. I've had saw dust puff up out of the grate and get tracked out. hummm! Good to know.

I do like the deep litter box idea with the sides with the dog having to step inside the a box....but with a grate like the new one's on Amazon. Occasionally, Patti squats on the potty tray with her butt on the edge and not everything goes inside the tray. :crying: So, I sit the potty tray on a piece of linoleum with an area rug on top to catch anything that might not make it. :smile2: She's pretty darn good about hitting the target but occasionally she's in a hurry, I guess.

For boy dogs who hike their legs I'd want a litter box with sides.


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