# Any thoughts about this breeder



## Beila (May 6, 2020)

So, guys I find a suspicious breeder but feel so uncertain about it.
Their web full of ads and looks like an online puppy mill. However they got a lot of good reviews on FB. It seems like they also welcome people to visit home, though they delivery puppy nationwide, they emphasize its a hand-deliver (take airplane with the puppy). Their price is also decent, around 1800 bucks.

The most confusing part is FB reviews. All the negative reviews were not from purchasers, and they've explained to every single one.

I don't know if they're home breeder or just BKB. What are your thoughts?

FB pages
https://www.facebook.com/pg/noahslittleark/reviews/?referrer=page_recommendations_see_all

Web
Reputable AKC Havanese Puppy Breeders in Georgia | Noahs Little Ark


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

At the risk of being "jumped on" by some HF members, I know nothing about this breeder and cannot recommend for or against them. I just found it odd that they say one of their puppies was born on 4/13/20 and it's already on its way home to California today 5/13/20. Maybe they mean it has been sold to someone in California and it will be sent there at some later time. I'm sure there is a good explanation and one the experts on HF can answer that. Maybe you should just call the breeder and ask at what age are the puppies sent home.

Ricky's Popi


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## KatieH (Apr 24, 2020)

One of the ways I learned to verify the integrity of the breeder was to search at the http://offa.org website to see whether the mom and dad of a potential puppy are listed as tested. I did not see any Havanese from Noah's Little Ark listed as having undergone any health tests. In fact, they don't make clear who the mom and the dad of each litter are. Another check is whether the breeder participates in the show circuit. It doesn't look like Noah's Little Ark is showing any of their dogs.

Compare the information on that website with these (these are in the Midwest, but I'm trying to show you the information that you should see on a reputable breeder's site):
Summerstone, Havanese & Golden Retrievers
Havanese Puppies Havanese Studs Havanese Breeders Minnesota Havanese Champion Puppies
Home

Do you see how they list all their male dogs and female dogs, identify the specific health tests that they perform, have pictures of show performances, and identify the specific parents of each litter? At first it's hard to notice that this information is missing from non-reputable breeders, but once you know what to look for it becomes easier. Also, you could practice looking on the offa.org website with one of the breeders that I list here so that you know what to look for.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

This is NOT a good breeder. They have a VERY bad reputation in the breed.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> This is NOT a good breeder. They have a VERY bad reputation in the breed.


What about all the good reviews they get? Doesn't that count for anything? Does every puppy need to come from show parentage? Maybe they don't need to post on offa if all their puppies are pre-sold. Do you personally know about this breeder? I got "jumped on" for simply saying a breeder "appeared" to be doing something and I was "skeptical" about a certain breeder. I intended to leave it open ended because I didn't know. I don't understand why I was flammed by some HF members. It seems like a double standard. This is the kind of thing that can tear a chat list apart. Obviously, I am having a difficult time letting this go. Karen, you and I are friends, please educate me. I don't understand the difference.

Ricky's Popi


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> This is NOT a good breeder. They have a VERY bad reputation in the breed.


Just to clarify, is this statement in regard to Noah's Little Ark or the breeders mentioned in the previous post? Thanks.


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## KatieH (Apr 24, 2020)

mudpuppymama said:


> Just to clarify, is this statement in regard to Noah's Little Ark or the breeders mentioned in the previous post? Thanks.


 @krandall was referring to Noah's Little Ark. The three that I listed ARE reputable breeders.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

KatieH said:


> @krandall was referring to Noah's Little Ark. The three that I listed ARE reputable breeders.


 @KatieH, help us out here. How did you determine those three were reputable breeders? Thanks.

Ricky's Popi


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## KatieH (Apr 24, 2020)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> @KatieH, help us out here. How did you determine those three were reputable breeders? Thanks.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


That's a good question, because I don't provide all the evidence in my first post.

1. First, I looked at the list of members of local Havanese Clubs to find members who are breeders.

2. Next, I went to www.offa.org and using the Advanced Search feature, I found all the Havanese dogs listed there from a specific kennel. I matched up the names of the dogs there with the ones on the breeder's website. "Reputable" breeders usually list their dams and sires, including their AKC registered names.

3. Then I verified that the breeder participates in the show circuit. They post pictures and titles that their dogs have won.

4. Getting into the nitty-gritty, one can often see that the names of one breeder's dogs contains the name of another breeder. If I am confident in one of those breeders, it gives me more confidence that the other is also reputable because they are collaborating. Some Googling and reading will also show collaboration between breeders....maybe on their Facebook pages or in acknowledgements/thanks in a championship picture.

5. I actually created a spreadsheet with a list of breeders names and completed columns indicating whether they completed the proper health tests, participated in shows, whether they were willing to have visitors or ship their pups (generally considered a negative). In searching breeders' websites to complete the spreadsheet, I ended up finding evidence of collaboration between some.

6. Lastly, I checked specific breeders with others here on the forum, and I did some of that via PM.


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Maybe they don't need to post on offa if all their puppies are pre-sold.


OFA is not a place to list puppies, but rather a public database from the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals. That's where you go to verify a breeder is doing the appropriate health testing (because anybody can claim anything), and if a breeder isn't doing a lick of health testing, they are not a good breeder, plain and simple. It is one of the first places I look when doing research on a breeder because lack of health testing is the one thing that always, no matter what, eliminates a breeder from being one I would support


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## adalah (Feb 6, 2019)

krandall said:


> This is NOT a good breeder. They have a VERY bad reputation in the breed.


agree


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

KarMar said:


> OFA is not a place to list puppies, but rather a public database from the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals. That's where you go to verify a breeder is doing the appropriate health testing (because anybody can claim anything), and if a breeder isn't doing a lick of health testing, they are not a good breeder, plain and simple. It is one of the first places I look when doing research on a breeder because lack of health testing is the one thing that always, no matter what, eliminates a breeder from being one I would support


What if they are too busy to list on OFA and all their dogs are pre-sold? Does that mean they are a bad breeder? Does that mean their dogs are somehow defective? What about all the happy customers they have? Doesn't that count for anything? I am not trying to be argumentative, I am not trying to defend Noah's Arc, I am trying to wrap my mind around this concept of good/bad breeder.

Ricky's Popi


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

I have been planning on writing up an OFA/health testing post to further educate as it can be confusing, so I may just do that when I'm back from work tonight (or tomorrow, my first day off in almost a week...oof). In short, health testing should be something done before breeding ever takes place. It should ALWAYS be done, and after the vet appointment is done, you don't have to do anything but sit back and wait for results. I will tag you in my post


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

Please do not buy a puppy from Noah's Little Ark. It is a puppy mill. They deliver puppies like they are on a milk run.
I know 2 people who bought Havanese from them. Honestly, they are very poor examples of Havanese. I am not a good judge of Havanese but these dogs came to both people with health issues and developed more issues quickly. They are very homely Havanese after they grow out of being cute puppies. These dogs lack the early social development skills that are very important.
Their prices are quite high for the poor quality puppies that I have seen personally. I begged my one friend not to get a dog from there but she would not listen. My comments on what I saw could be endless.
Please stay away from them.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KatieH said:


> @krandall was referring to Noah's Little Ark. The three that I listed ARE reputable breeders.


Yes, Noah's Little Ark. They have a very bad reputation among people in the breed. Yes, I personally know a number of people who have had very bad experiences with them. People can do a search hear on the forum and I think you will find members here whi have had bad experiences.

I don't know whether they still advertise this, but for a long time, they advertised it, as a badge of honor, that they produced ouppies with cleft pallats and hare lips, and "rather than euthanizing these puppies, they would place them for reduced prices in pet homes" What a deal! What about cleaning up their blood lines and taking those breeders OUT of the gene pool instead. those are NOT common birth defects in this breed!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> What if they are too busy to list on OFA and all their dogs are pre-sold? Does that mean they are a bad breeder? Does that mean their dogs are somehow defective? What about all the happy customers they have? Doesn't that count for anything? I am not trying to be argumentative, I am not trying to defend Noah's Arc, I am trying to wrap my mind around this concept of good/bad breeder.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


It only takes a (small check) a stamp and a simple form in an envelope to send test results in to OFA. It is part of what any good breeder does. This is not something that can be skipped.

Yes, you can get LOTS of "happy puppy reviews" if you sell ZILLIONS of low grade puppies to people who don't know any better. Most of them don't even remember who they bought the dog from by the time they have a health problem in 3 years. Most of them don't know a good Havanese temper,ent from a bad one.

And those really good breeders are more likely building a personsl relationship with their puppy buyer than asking them to write an on-line review. Honestly, I've never written an "official" review on the internet for either of my breeders, and I think you know the high regard I hold both in. I get a little suspiscious just BECAUSE of these kinds of reviews.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

I think that many people are unaware of the idea of buying a quality puppy and that is how they get good reviews.
Both of the people that I know that bought a puppy from Noah's Ark had just lost their dogs and they were overjoyed to get a puppy delivered to their homes. It is a very emotional time when you have a beloved dog die.
I considered this breeder after getting screwed over by a "quality" Havanese breeder. My Romeo had just died and I really needed a new dog. I was devastated by his death then was screwed over by this man. I felt desperate and thought I just wanted a puppy but I couldn't bring myself to get one of these puppies.
Hopefully, your new Havanese will be your best friend for the next 15-20 years, buy the best dog you can find.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

KarMar said:


> I have been planning on writing up an OFA/health testing post to further educate as it can be confusing,


That would be very helpful. I hope you will do it. But I would like you to expand it beyond just OFA testing. I would like to see a checklist of things to consider when seeking a breeder. @KatieH touched on this in her post above. She was well organized and prepared a spreadsheet of things to consider. That's a good start. I would like to see this made into another "sticky" on the "breeders" to page to supplement Heather's post on selecting a breeder. This would be very helpful to someone looking for a pup but also to the chat list as a whole.

Ricky's Popi


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## KatieH (Apr 24, 2020)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> That would be very helpful. I hope you will do it. But I would like you to expand it beyond just OFA testing. I would like to see a checklist of things to consider when seeking a breeder. @KatieH touched on this in her post above. She was well organized and prepared a spreadsheet of things to consider. That's a good start. I would like to see this made into another "sticky" on the "breeders" to page to supplement Heather's post on selecting a breeder. This would be very helpful to someone looking for a pup but also to the chat list as a whole.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


Another little addition we might make are step-by-step instructions to find the breeder's test results on the OFA website. There might be many breeders with the same beginning of their name, and then it's hard to scroll through to find the breeder you want. I learned to use Advanced Search and specify the breed, then it was easy to find the breeder I wanted to research.


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

I'll make a point to be incredibly thorough and clear. I work at an animal hospital with a reproduction specialty, so I have more experience with OFA and health testing than I ever thought I would :laugh: It can be tricky if you aren't sure what you're looking for.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

If you're going to pay $1,800 for a dog, I would make the effort and make the trip to visit the breeder, no matter where they live. You're going to have this dog for a long time and you should check out the breeder, their home and set up.

If there are LOTS! of people posting on FB that MIGHT be a positive indication the breeder has good dogs, socializes the puppies and treats puppies and breeding dogs well. It's hard to know from FB posts what's going on because the breeder would take down any negative comments...if they were smart. 

In most states Puppy Mills are illegal. Those places are horrible and mistreat breeding dogs and puppies. There are breeders who may not have the best-of-the-best Havanese but have good quality and healthy dogs which make beautiful and wonderful pets. 

When you meet the breeder and meet her breeding dogs and see the puppies, you'll either feel good about it or not. If the breeder doesn't have a puppy you want at the time, then you can decided if the flight arrangement works or may be go back and get the puppy. I'd go back and pick out the puppy.


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