# Neutering Advice Please



## Bowie's Mom (Oct 1, 2016)

I'm hoping I can get some opinions and advice on the right time to neuter Bowie. He's 17 weeks old and weighs 6.4 pounds. He squats to pee, but is humping more. Seems as if he doesn't even play with the little girl pup across the street anymore, he's only interested in humping her. I'm getting it a lot more too. I remember a post from a member that neutered her boy young and he just kept growing. So I guess I'm asking at what age is best? I'd love for him to not lift his leg and am scared of the whole marking in the house bit...Thanks so much for all help! 

Also, does anyone know how to get the TickerFactory to start ticking? Bowie is paused, which actually isn't a bad thing, as I'm loving this puppy so much!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

the best time for neutering males is probably never. For neutering females it becomes a personal preference . Here's more http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf


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## Hava Novice (Aug 30, 2016)

I am very interested in seeing the responses to your question. Oreo is 22 weeks old, and I have been thinking about neutering him in the next couple of weeks. He has been humping the giant Doodles across the street (pretty funny to see!). Thankfully he hasn't humped any people yet! He still squats to pee as well. My friend had her Havanese neutered in the 5 month range. She said she called the vet the first time he lifted his leg, and got it done the next day. She has never had an issue with him marking. Her Bichon had been neutered at 6-7 months, and she was never able to get him to stop marking. Maybe it was just a difference in the two dogs, but I think I will follow her lead on this. I have only had female dogs in the past, and I had reservations about a male dog because of the potential for marking. 
Good luck with your little man!


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## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

As far as humping and marking are concerned, treat those behaviors as you would any other behavior you want to discourage. Interrupt, redirect or provide an alternate behavior and praise when your dog plays in other ways. Our household has 4 dogs, 3 males (2 of which are neutered and one spayed female). I don't permit the dogs to hump each other. Any attempts at humping are interrupted with an "ahnt" and other play interactions are praised. This is done from the first day a new puppy comes into the house. Typically, the new puppy has a stuffed toy to hump but I have found that within a few months the puppy loses interest in the stuffed toy and simply plays with the other dogs by wrestling, chasing, playing tug, etc. Because I don't permit humping of other dogs it is just not a behavior they engage in. 

As far as marking is concerned I treat it exactly as I do any potty behavior. I watch the pups very closely and interrupt any inappropriate attempts at urination and take the puppy outside where squatting to pee or lifting a leg is acceptable. 

If you treat these behaviors as you do other behaviors and don't excuse them due to "hormones" or whatever, your dog will behave as you want him to.


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

Yup, what Pucks104 said. Marking and humping are behaviors that can easily be trained out, though a little extra diligence is needed if you have a particularly randy male 

As far as what time, 5 months is INCREDIBLY early. I wouldn't spay or neuter any time before the dog is done growing, so a year or so at the very least. Mario was neutered around 18 months and has never had an issue with humping or marking. Nino only gets...excited...around one particular bitch, even when she isn't in heat. He has been around a female in season before and didn't even blink. Doesn't bode well for a stud dog career :laugh: He has also shown no sign of even thinking about marking, though he is almost 11 months old and definitely past sexual maturity.


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## Hava Novice (Aug 30, 2016)

Thanks KarMar and Pucks for sharing your opinions. As my name implies, I am a novice, both to Havanese and male dogs. I had asked the vet what age to do it, and never got a clear response. Based on your responses, I am inclined to wait a few more months.
Thanks!


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## Bowie's Mom (Oct 1, 2016)

Thanks so much for all the advice! I agree, best to wait until full grown or if at all...


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Ricky was neutered at 11 months and he is very happy and healthy today. Occasionally he will show sexual interest in another dog but we quickly redirect and it is never a problem. Occasionally he will mark outdoors but not always. When another dog visits his yard and pees, Ricky will quickly over-mark that spot two or three times in succession. His female cousin doggie (55 pounds) is visiting with us this week and Ricky has to be dehydrated from all the over-marking in HIS yard. :grin2: Thank dog they are both napping right now, otherwise it is pandemonium with wild play, indoors and out! Ricky gives as good as he gets. Here is an "artsy" photo hoto: of the two of them in one of their quieter moments

Ricky's Popi


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## BC Raine (Aug 13, 2016)

Thanks for the link, very helpful.


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## BC Raine (Aug 13, 2016)

Hi again, Dave. Do you (or others) have more information about "spay incontinence"? It sounds as though the incidence is quite significant, and I really, really don't want to have to cope with an incontinent dog, nor to give her meds for this for life! Has anyone on the forum experienced this problem? 

Maisie is almost 7 months old now, and I'm thinking I'll wait until she's a year old to spay, given the information provided here. 

Thanks!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

BC Raine said:


> Hi again, Dave. Do you (or others) have more information about "spay incontinence"? It sounds as though the incidence is quite significant, and I really, really don't want to have to cope with an incontinent dog, nor to give her meds for this for life! Has anyone on the forum experienced this problem?
> 
> Maisie is almost 7 months old now, and I'm thinking I'll wait until she's a year old to spay, given the information provided here.
> 
> Thanks!


causes urinary "spay incontinence" in 4-20% of female dogs.

5 Thrusfield MV, Holt PE, Muirhead RH. Acquired urinary incontinence in bitches: its incidence and
relationship to neutering practices.. J Small Anim Pract. 1998. Dec;39(12):559-66.
36 Stocklin-Gautschi NM, Hassig M, Reichler IM, Hubler M, Arnold S. The relationship of urinary
incontinence to early spaying in bitches. J Reprod Fertil Suppl. 2001;57:233-6...
37 Arnold S, Arnold P, Hubler M, Casal M, and Rüsch P. Urinary Incontinence in spayed bitches: prevalence
and breed disposition. European Journal of Campanion Animal Practice. 131, 259-263


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I chose to have Pixel have a laparoscopic ovariectomy (where the uterus is left in place) rather than a traditional spay, and it was partially for this reason. It is also a much less invasive procedure, but there is much less chance of spay incontinence as well.


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## BC Raine (Aug 13, 2016)

Thanks to you both for your help. I'll ask my vet whether she does laparoscopic procedures. Also try to track down those journal articles, maybe I can access online without subscription. :nerd:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

BC Raine said:


> Thanks to you both for your help. I'll ask my vet whether she does laparoscopic procedures. Also try to track down those journal articles, maybe I can access online without subscription. :nerd:


I had to take Pixel to another veterinary practice (quite a way away) for her laparoscopic spay. But the practice was recommended by my vet, and by a number of thither people who had also had their girls done there. You want a place with a good reputation, who have done LOTS of these procedures. Just having the equipment is not the same as having a lot of experience with it. The vet who did Pixel does several procedures a day, 5 days a week, and has been doing them for a number of years. There are two other (closer) places that also offer laparoscopic procedures, and both got a less than totally enthusiastic response from my regular vet when I mentioned them. I also couldn't find anyone among my large dog-acquaintance circle who had used them. So I went with the one further away.

It actually was great. They knew I had traveled a long distance, so it made no sense for me to go home and come back later... I would have spent the entire day driving. So I stayed there. Pixel stayed with me except when they put her IV in, until it was time for them to anesthetize her. Then, as soon as she was awake, they brought her back to me, so she could recover the rest of the way in my arms. I think it was as low stress for her as it possibly could have been. Because there were no stitches, they sent us home with pain meds, then kept in touch with me on the phone for follow-up. But I didn't even need to take her back for suture removal.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yes if you have the option of an ovariectomy there are definite benefits Announcing a New Safer Alternative to Traditional Spaying


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

this study shows no difference in spay incontinence between the two procedures https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16472293


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> this study shows no difference in spay incontinence between the two procedures https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16472293


I can't seem to access the article without paying. This is not what was explained to me either by my regular vet or the feet who did the procedure.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

no idea Karen, It was a long term study though. I can only guess that removing the hormones ,which is done in both proceedures is the main cause for incontinance by what Dr Becker mentions here ..." Hands down the most common reason for involuntary urine leakage, especially in dogs, is hormone-induced urinary incontinence.

After a pet is spayed or neutered, the sex hormones estrogen and testosterone (which are necessary to help close the external urethral sphincter) are no longer available. The result is often urine dribbling

here is the article Urinary and Fecal Incontinence in Pets


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

One of our farm dogs had spay incontinence when she was about 12. She was spayed at some fairly early age, but not really early. Our vet gave her some hormone shot then, and she only needed it one more time before she left us sometime after her 17th birthday.

Hormones must make the male dogs mark too. Any stud dog that has left here as a neutered male did not mark in their new home. Trip was the oldest. We never thought he'd leave here, but a good friend of ours wanted to try him when he was 10 years old. I don't remember when he was neutered, but it had to be after he was 8. He lived to 17, and never marked in their house. He did keep their driveway well marked though from what I understand.


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## Skippers BF (Apr 2, 2016)

Skipper was neutered at 10 months. It was a very easy procedure and has not curbed his enthusiasm for life at all. I am on the side of all “family” dogs being neutered or spayed at some point. There are too many “accidents” out there in the world. I also am on the side that believes that neutering can help the long term health of the dog. Best of luck.


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## Jojofergy (Jun 27, 2016)

My rescue was spayed before I could take her home from the shelter at approx 4 yrs old she had what I'm guessing was spay incontinence I noticed within a week of having her she would get up from laying down and there would be a small puddle where she was laying 
When I mentioned this to the vet and asked him if it could have happened cause of her spay (I thought maybe the vet that did it messed up at the time) he said no that it had nothing to do with her spay 
He gave me medicine to give to her I started with his recommended dose of 2 pills a day As I researched I realized this drug was not considered the best drug to give your dog so I reduced to 1 pill a day then 1/2 pill within a yr she was completely off them and no longer has an issue 
I'm not sure what caused it but am glad it didn't last her whole life and do feel it was prob because of her spay 
I am no longer with that vet 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

Kosmo's vet recommended a neuter before six months. I did my online research, and may well opt for vasectomy. These are done in north GA, where we now live. Thank you for this information.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Hava Novice said:


> I am very interested in seeing the responses to your question. Oreo is 22 weeks old, and I have been thinking about neutering him in the next couple of weeks. He has been humping the giant Doodles across the street (pretty funny to see!). Thankfully he hasn't humped any people yet! He still squats to pee as well. My friend had her Havanese neutered in the 5 month range. She said she called the vet the first time he lifted his leg, and got it done the next day. She has never had an issue with him marking. Her Bichon had been neutered at 6-7 months, and she was never able to get him to stop marking. Maybe it was just a difference in the two dogs, but I think I will follow her lead on this. I have only had female dogs in the past, and I had reservations about a male dog because of the potential for marking.
> Good luck with your little man!


Marking and humping are behaviors that can be trained, just like peeing in the house. It is very uncommon for male dogs to be neutered in Europe, and you can bet your bottom dollar that those dogs are taught not to lift a leg in the house or hump people!!!

The research is showing, as Dave said, that there is little HEALTH reason to ever neuter a male dog, unless there is a physical reason (like a tumor, retained testicle, etc) But it does cut down on some of the sexual behaviors, and ESPECIALLY if you can't be 100% certain that you can prevent your boy from sire an unintended litter, it can make sense to neuter them for human convenience. If you feel you really want to do it, it's best to wait until the dog is fully mature and has the benefit of adult hormones in his body. That means at least a year, sometimes 2 years old. But some people are VERY concerned about the humping and especially marking, and really want to neuter before that starts. It's a really personal decision.


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## Bowie's Mom (Oct 1, 2016)

Bowie will be a year old on 7/14 and I've been waiting to neuter him, per contract, but how do you know when the dog is fully mature? He is my first male after a lifetime of female dogs...he only marks in the backyard and on walks. Humping is not allowed and is corrected if done. Someone mentioned a vasectomy, any thoughts and knowledge on that? Thanks!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Bowie's Mom said:


> Bowie will be a year old on 7/14 and I've been waiting to neuter him, per contract, but how do you know when the dog is fully mature? He is my first male after a lifetime of female dogs...he only marks in the backyard and on walks. Humping is not allowed and is corrected if done. Someone mentioned a vasectomy, any thoughts and knowledge on that? Thanks!


Havanese, and most small breeds are pretty much done growing by a year. My vet prefers, if the owners are willing, to wait until two years for spay or neuter.

I din't really unspderstand why someone would do a vasectomy. The dog will still have all the same drives and behaviors as a pn intact male. The only difference is that they could not actually impregnate a female. With our small breed dogs, I think it's pretty simple for most conscientious owners to keep that from happening. panda isn't spayed, and I am not in any hrry to get her spayed. But at the same time, I don't have the LEAST concern that I can't prevent an unwanted pregnancy.


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## Bowie's Mom (Oct 1, 2016)

Thanks! I'm definitely able to have him "keep it in his pants". I just want to do what is best for him...wasn't sure if vasectomy was equal to a neuter, again trying to keep to the contract...


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

I planned to keep Kosmo intact, he is a perfect little man, just as he is ... um hmmm...except for that pesky undescended testis. I have to have a surgical correction, sadly, and will look for someone to do an ultrasound, rather than splitting him open like a fish to search. However, I want all the hormones, so I will discuss with the sophisticated vet whether to leave in tact or no. Also, my daughter has two female collies, and we are debating whether to get the girls' ovaries removed using least invasive method or leave them in tact. Her rural setting and the size of the collies make the possibility of accidents greater.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Bowie's Mom said:


> Thanks! I'm definitely able to have him "keep it in his pants". I just want to do what is best for him...wasn't sure if vasectomy was equal to a neuter, again trying to keep to the contract...


Well, health-wises, it means that you aren't taking his hormones again, and many would argue that that's a good thing. But I don't see what benefit a vasectomy has over keeping the dog intact as long as you can keep him from breeding.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Marcia Tallent said:


> I planned to keep Kosmo intact, he is a perfect little man, just as he is ... um hmmm...except for that pesky undescended testis. I have to have a surgical correction, sadly, and will look for someone to do an ultrasound, rather than splitting him open like a fish to search. However, I want all the hormones, so I will discuss with the sophisticated vet whether to leave in tact or no. Also, my daughter has two female collies, and we are debating whether to get the girls' ovaries removed using least invasive method or leave them in tact. Her rural setting and the size of the collies make the possibility of accidents greater.


Pixel had a laparoscopic ovariectomy. I have many friends who have done this with their larger breed dogs and it was SO much easier on them than a traditional spay. Unfortunately, it was NOT so easy on Pixel, although even for a Havanese, she is on the small side. I was told after the fact that the reason she may have had such a hard time is size related. With a very small dog (10 lbs is typically their cut-off, and she is just 10 lbs now, and was a bit less then) the instruments are exactly the same size as they use on a large dog, so there is that issue. They also inflate the abdomen with gas so they can see what they re doing. The amount of gas for the size dog is much greater for a little one, just so the vet can see their way around in there. After doing it once, I am not sure I'd do it again with another Havanese. Poor Pixel was really miserable.


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

I think leaving him the one *** wonder dog is how it will be. He is very well behaved so I think I can make sure he keeps his tainted genes to himself.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Marcia Tallent said:


> I think leaving him the one *** wonder dog is how it will be. He is very well behaved so I think I can make sure he keeps his tainted genes to himself.


HA!!! But DO check with the vet on that one... I have read that retained testicles are more likely to develop cancers later on. So you would certainly want to get all the information you could and weigh the benefits in both directions.


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

Karen, I want a girl Havanese, next year. They really are like potato chips. So, Kosmo will probably have to go under the knife. He is such perfection, loves being brushed out and likes the dryer, will snuggle, treats other dogs and humans respectfully and now even waits for the human to exit the house first and sits by their feet before walking forward. 
While he is being operated on I will be in a state of raw nerves. 
Of course, my daughter says that even if he is ten times more likely to get testicular cancer in his retained testis and the odds of testicular cancer are one in 1000, maybe it is worth the risk over anesthesia. 
So I have a lot to think about, and I also can't stop thinking of him in one of those man dog aprons. LOL He really has become the light of my life.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Marcia Tallent said:


> Karen, I want a girl Havanese, next year. They really are like potato chips. So, Kosmo will probably have to go under the knife. He is such perfection, loves being brushed out and likes the dryer, will snuggle, treats other dogs and humans respectfully and now even waits for the human to exit the house first and sits by their feet before walking forward.
> While he is being operated on I will be in a state of raw nerves.
> Of course, my daughter says that even if he is ten times more likely to get testicular cancer in his retained testis and the odds of testicular cancer are one in 1000, maybe it is worth the risk over anesthesia.
> So I have a lot to think about, and I also can't stop thinking of him in one of those man dog aprons. LOL He really has become the light of my life.


I can tell you FOR SURE, that if you have two intact Havanese of opposite sexes in the same house, you are tempting fate. It is also MUCH, MUCH harder to keep an intact male from marking if there is a girl in heat in the house. Every person I know with an intact male in the house with an intact female has to keep the boy in a belly band, at least while the girl is in heat.

Also, all those dogs I know of are breeding dogs owned by experienced breeders, and all are properly health tested. Even with experienced dog breeders, "accidents happen". That is MOST likely to happen when the female is young and you aren't expecting her to go into heat. If you plan on getting a female, PLEASE get your boy neutered. He is definitely not breeding material if he has a retained testicle, as that is a heritable condition. He will be exactly the same sweet, loving boy after he is neutered. I know it is nerve wracking! Kodi was neutered and Pixel was spayed. I was a nervous wreck on both days! But in the long run, it was the right thing to do. I just WOULDN'T have neutered Kodi so early (7 months) if I'd known then what I know now. He STILL would have been neutered W-A-Y before either of the girls entered our lives!


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

Okay, will do...as a snip of remaining testicle would definitely not stop conflict and marking. But, will wait a year on surgery (and time to heal before new little girl). Kosmo is so very much not breeding material with inheritable defect. If experienced breeders have accidents happen when 1st heat happens, I would not stand a chance.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Marcia Tallent said:


> Okay, will do...as a snip of remaining testicle would definitely not stop conflict and marking. But, will wait a year on surgery (and time to heal before new little girl). Kosmo is so very much not breeding material with inheritable defect. If experienced breeders have accidents happen when 1st heat happens, I would not stand a chance.


Sounds like a great plan!  A snip of the descended testicle would not, for sure, halt his ability to impregnate a girl either. it PROBABLY would, but it's not a sure bet. Better, if he has to be anesthetized anyway, to have them find and remove the undescended one as well.


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

Well, when you add on my struggle to get Kosmo to not eat poop and his bad reaction to required shot, no one would want to continue his gene pool. I am in hate with his breeder, but he is my sweet "learner" Havanese. My little girl will have three year health guarantee, champions on both sides with health qualifications, and I will see her wet and soaped beforehand.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Marcia Tallent said:


> Well, when you add on my struggle to get Kosmo to not eat poop and his bad reaction to required shot, no one would want to continue his gene pool. I am in hate with his breeder, but he is my sweet "learner" Havanese. My little girl will have three year health guarantee, champions on both sides with health qualifications, and I will see her wet and soaped beforehand.


Well, of course I don't know all that went on with your breeder, but ANY Havanese, even a well-bred one, can have a vaccine reaction. In fact, any individual ANIMAL of any breed or species can have a vaccine reaction. It is always a matter of weighing risks vs. benefits. For some vaccines (like initial distemper and parvo vaccines) the benefits clearly outweigh the risks. Beyond that, it depends.

And as far as poop eating is concerned, that's a "dog thing", not a problem with the breeder or the breed. You just got (un)lucky.

I am ALL for buying good dogs from good breeders. But I don't think it is fair to blame any breeder, good or bad, for either of the above. Even the undescended testicle... Unless the breeder KNOWINGLY continued a line that regularly produced monorchids, this can happen from time to time in "the best of families". The dog should be neutered, but otherwise, is perfectly healthy and should make a lovely pet.


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

Hate is hyperbole. Too ugly a word for situation, but he came from rural Georgia kennel. I didn't do my homework.


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