# All shots needed before walking outside??



## BC Raine (Aug 13, 2016)

Hi all, I need your help!

I brought home Maisie 8 days ago, she is now 12.5 weeks old. She just had her second shots 5 days ago, and will be due for the final ones in 3.5 weeks. I'm feeling very confused and torn about whether I can start walking her or even letting her play outside yet, since she hasn't had her third set of shots. 

There seem to be two very different schools of thought about this, but I worry that my particular situation may be an important consideration. I live in a high-rise in a very high density area in Vancouver, BC, Canada. Pretty much any grass or sidewalk around here is travelled by many dogs. There is a very large park a block away but it has many raccoons and skunks. The skunks also venture into the neighbourhood as well. 

The breeder told me not to let her onto the ground until she's had all her shots. The vet said socialization is more important. However she is located in an area of mainly houses where people have backyards. She wasn't a very good listener and so I didn't leave feeling satisfied that she had really understood my situation. 

What should I do?! I take Maisie out for walks in my arms and she loves meeting new people, but she seems so desperate to get down and run around! It feels unnatural to me not to let a young pup run and play in the grass. It also is making house training more complicated. We are working on getting her to use P pads in the apartment, but my eventual hope is that she will be almost exclusively using the outdoors. 

Thank you for your insights! I'm really hoping the consensus is to let her start playing in the grass, but of course I don't want her to become very ill.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Many of us don't even give our Havanese puppies a third round of puppy shots. 99% of puppies are fully protected after their second shot. Those that are not protected at that point may be non-responders and never develop immunity. I would certainly be getting your puppy out and about at this stage. I would avoid dog parks, and, to the extent that it is possible, avoid letting her sniff poop left on the ground, etc. 

But the bottom line is that your vet is correct... Proper socialization, which means exposure to her environment, is ULTRA important at her age.


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## BC Raine (Aug 13, 2016)

Thank you, thank you!! That's exactly what I was hoping to hear! Maybe it's just my own feelings about it, but I almost have a sense that she's a little bit depressed. She doesn't seem as playful or animated as the first few days here. I guess part of that might be leaving her sibs and mother too, but it sort of feels like keeping a child indoors all summer, while their friends are outside playing.


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

When I brought Emmie home at 10 weeks we lived in a mid-rise condo building in downtown Seattle. I never kept her from walking on the sidewalks in the city or going to the bathroom on the grass areas in our neighborhood. I made sure she didn't sniff other dog's poo but that's about it. Early socialization was very important to me and being in an urban environment made it easy to socialize my puppy well.

She's 4.5 yrs now and still enjoys being a city dog and going on all kinds of adventures.


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## BC Raine (Aug 13, 2016)

Thanks, Jeanne, my neighbour over the border. :smile2: Sounds like you're in a similar environment, so that's very reassuring! First thing tomorrow I'll take her for her debut walk! Can't wait. :grin2:


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## seesawhavanese (Jun 17, 2015)

Hello, from Burnaby. When Mochi was young we would carry her everywhere, letting her see and meet people outside Costco, Save-on, etc... She had her 1st socialization class after her 2nd set of shots. We would walk her on cement and the tennis court. I don't think I would let her walk downtown since so many dogs are around. We just tried to minimize the risk, but we still let her walk around.

Mochi potty trained using a patch of artificial grass on cement in our back patio. 

Good luck!


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## BC Raine (Aug 13, 2016)

Thanks. I actually tried buying the box with real grass for her, but she didn't really take to it, preferred the pee pads. I just don't think I can stand not letting her run around outside any more, but I'll do what I can to minimize the risk! Maybe we'll bump into you and Mochi at an obedience class or something one day!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

please read this as your window for primary socialization is already starting to close. https://avsab.org/wp-content/upload...ion_Position_Statement_Download_-_10-3-14.pdf


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## BC Raine (Aug 13, 2016)

That's very convincing, Dave, as are the other comments. Thank you all for being kind enough to take time for us newbies' questions. Too bad puppies don't come with a manual, but a consensus of peers is probably more reliable anyway! :smile2:


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I wish it was that convincing to a lot of vets.


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## seesawhavanese (Jun 17, 2015)

BC Raine said:


> Thanks. I actually tried buying the box with real grass for her, but she didn't really take to it, preferred the pee pads. I just don't think I can stand not letting her run around outside any more, but I'll do what I can to minimize the risk! Maybe we'll bump into you and Mochi at an obedience class or something one day!


Try putting your pups urine smell onto the grass.

Check out the local meetup group. 
http://www.facebook.com/groups/Bucahavanese


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## six (Apr 22, 2016)

Just out of curiosity as I haven't gotten my puppy yet. From what a gathered here, we don't walk the puppy on the ground until their 2nd round of shots, instead carry them. After 2nd round of shots, we can walk them?


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

six said:


> Just out of curiosity as I haven't gotten my puppy yet. From what a gathered here, we don't walk the puppy on the ground until their 2nd round of shots, instead carry them. After 2nd round of shots, we can walk them?


My vet never told me my puppy couldn't walk on the ground and had to be carried until she had 1/2/3 round of shots - I disagree with that approach and don't think it's in the best interest of the puppy.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

pups need to explore and investigate and socialize from day 1. Please refer to AVSAB position statement to see areas of exception. Here's more on thishttp://www.dogstardaily.com/podcasts/iwoofs/506-parvovirus-vs-insufficient-socialization


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

Depriving a young, impressionable pup of important socialization in a very important window of time is much more dangerous than the possibility of illness. Before bringing Nino home, we were worried about bringing him anywhere outside of our yard. Our breeder is a big believer in the importance of socialization (Nino met around 200 unique people, played with known big dogs, small dogs, old dogs, young dogs, been on various outings, and walked over many different surfaces before coming home) and was adamant that he get out. To squash our doubts, she basically reminded us that we were 20x more informed than most of those we know who have gotten puppies, and she asked us if any of them had ever had issues. Nope. Not one. Use common sense; avoid dog parks and pet stores (especially those where the owner cleans up accidents...you never know how well they do). Don't let your pup sniff other dogs' poop or eat grass. As Karen said, they are quite safe after their first round of shots, and by the time they have had their second round, they are almost completely immune.


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

KarMar said:


> Depriving a young, impressionable pup of important socialization in a very important window of time is much more dangerous than the possibility of illness. Before bringing Nino home, we were worried about bringing him anywhere outside of our yard. Our breeder is a big believer in the importance of socialization (Nino met around 200 unique people, played with known big dogs, small dogs, old dogs, young dogs, been on various outings, and walked over many different surfaces before coming home) and was adamant that he get out. To squash our doubts, she basically reminded us that we were 20x more informed than most of those we know who have gotten puppies, and she asked us if any of them had ever had issues. Nope. Not one. Use common sense; avoid dog parks and pet stores (especially those where the owner cleans up accidents...you never know how well they do). Don't let your pup sniff other dogs' poop or eat grass. As Karen said, they are quite safe after their first round of shots, and by the time they have had their second round, they are almost completely immune.


The importance of picking a great breeder is the socialization they will do before you bring your puppy home. Nino sure got a great head start!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

MarinaGirl said:


> The importance of picking a great breeder is the socialization they will do before you bring your puppy home. Nino sure got a great head start!


Right on :clap2: . More has to be done by breeders . From three weeks to seven weeks dog/dog socialization and from three to 12 weeks with humans. Dogs should meet 100 people by 100 days re. Dr. Dunbar guidelines.


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## Zoe093014 (Jan 27, 2015)

Zoe came to us a social butterfly... and is to this day. The breeder did a great job socializing her before we even got her. She was around dogs of all ages, including her litter mates, cats, kids, men, women, etc. I actually have the opposite problem with her and have to teach her not to greet everyone and every dog we meet. I am getting a trainer to help with this. At home she was allowed to explore the house with supervision of course and quickly learned that chewing furniture was not allowed. Once she was potty trained she was reliable in the whole downstairs living area. So yes, I agree that the breeders should play a part in the socialization process.


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## Chasing Mayzie (Aug 16, 2016)

I have a Mayzie too, and she is just a little older than your Maisie (mine was born June 4). I am benefitting from the question you asked too. 

I live a quiet, stay-at-home life, so Mayzie's socialization while I have had her came only from visiting less than 10 people and 3 dogs (2 of which are mine). So far, she loves everyone and has only shown fear once (an overly exuberant hound in our yard). My point is that the early socialization the breeder did when she was very young obviously really stuck (her breeder was not tops, but she was also a groomer and had a shop so she met folks). So the article davetgabby cited really rings true to me. 

Also, despite this relative sheltering, Mayzie did get really really sick once. She threw up nonstop all night long once. Fortunately it didn't turn out to be anything awful, but it could have been. I think the case for valuing socializing despite the risks make sense, at least to this novice.


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## six (Apr 22, 2016)

davetgabby said:


> Right on :clap2: . More has to be done by breeders . From three weeks to seven weeks dog/dog socialization and from three to 12 weeks with humans. Dogs should meet 100 people by 100 days re. Dr. Dunbar guidelines.


I agree, but it isn't lost hope for those people that got an 8-week old puppy without much socialization. They'll just have to focus really hard on the 8-12 weeks.


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## Chasing Mayzie (Aug 16, 2016)

six said:


> I agree, but it isn't lost hope for those people that got an 8-week old puppy without much socialization. They'll just have to focus really hard on the 8-12 weeks.


I'm glad you said this...I didn't even get Mayzie until she was about 12 weeks old. I just keep remembering rescue stories where even dogs who have been abused learn to love people and other animals. I know for each story that goes well there is a story like sweet Brookie's, whose sad past comes to haunt them from time to time, but all we can do is forget their past, not worry about deadlines, and make our best efforts every day.

ETA: Unless, of course, you're more than a pet owner like me...I am sure breeders bear a heightened responsibility in this regard.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

six said:


> I agree, but it isn't lost hope for those people that got an 8-week old puppy without much socialization. They'll just have to focus really hard on the 8-12 weeks.


And socialization absolutely doesn't stop then... That's just when it's easiest to make a solid impression on them. Socialization is a life-long endeavor.


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