# Blast from Past with BREAKING NEWS!



## ILoveLucy (Apr 4, 2008)

:closed_2:


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## Hav a lot of pets (Apr 4, 2008)

Oh my gosh, I didn't even give birth in a room with radiant heat flooring! Lucky dog!

Can't wait to see the photos,

Karen


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

M, Your breeding dogs that are so young?? 9 and 13 months? I'm assuming this is just for the 'fun' of it??? What do you plan on doing with the pups? Does your breeder know about and support this????????

Ryan


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

M (which BTW is what DH's friends call me too), congrats on the pups. However, I must second Ryan's questions and add one: are your dogs health tested? (CERF, Cardiac, Patella, etc.)

I think the 'most sense' would have been fixing your dogs in the first place and have your family members get pups from a knowledgeable breeder or HRI. Don't mean to offend you in ANY way, but I think there are way too many pups looking for a home in a shelter that would come with the same or lower health risks than your future pups.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I hope you luck out with Lucy being so young and she has a safe pregnancy and birth. I am assuming you don't have experience with intact dogs with not realizing a diaper wouldn't work so make sure you get her to the vet if needed. I can't stress enough how important it is to protect our breed and get health testing done on your dogs but you generally wait till they are a year to get started on the health testing before even thinking of breeding them.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

The ONLY way to make sure an accidental breeding doesn't happen is to keep the dogs apart from one another, period. What a shame, as they are both so very, very young. It is like allowing your daughter to have a baby at age 13. I hope all goes well and mom and puppies will bring you joy.


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

Well, M, what's done is done.
Congratulations!
I'm sure your family will love the puppies and enjoy them.
Hope all goes well.
Post pictures!


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Wow, I missed out on this one!


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## hedygs (May 23, 2007)

Me too Ivy but I catch the drift.


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## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

I remember the cute videos you used to post. Now I wonder about the tone of this post. Of coarse we are concerned when 2 babies produce puppies. I hope for the best for your dogs.

Perhaps there are others who will learn that duct tape and panties do not prevent pregnancies.


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

I only now saw that ILoveLucy changed her initial post, I would like to repeat that I didn't mean to offend you, ILoveLucy. However, this is a public forum and I do believe that members are allowed to not only share camaraderie, but also their concerns, which in my eyes doesn't exclude camaraderie.


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

Cheryl said:


> duct tape and panties do not prevent pregnancies.


Cheryl can I put this on a t-shirt?!

Ha!


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## trueblue (Jan 22, 2008)

Whoa...bite me? What's up with that?


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Amy ound: ound:

I don't think you were being criticized. I think we all are just concerned about your dogs and their pups. Knowing this forum, you are aware how everyone feels about continued health testing of the breed. You really didn't think we would accept this without some concerns, did you?


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

I missed this one too! 

Accidents happen..........Can your female pregnant dog get tested now? Just wondering....I am no expert at his breeding business and I have no intention of starting. 

Just wondering?????


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

I also missed the original post, always late to the party.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Linda, you can always test your dogs. However, from everything I've read on the forum, hips are done around 2 yrs old. Baer testing is done early, CERF I believe is at one yr. So, yes, they can be tested. However, it would have been better to make sure of these things beforehand. 

Accidents do happen, but it sounded like she was planning on breeding them anyway, so some of these tests should have been done already.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

ILoveLucy said:


> When you all live your lives perfectly, you can cast stones. Until then, realize I am a grown, informed woman who felt guilty and embarrassed that I did not better protect my little girl from "getting caught." But even the vet was nonplussed at the fact she had gotten PG at such a young age because she and her mate are so healthy.
> 
> I have seen other bulletin boards where people drew venom and harsh criticism without truly deserving it. But when I had time to dabble on this board, I found nothing but unconditional love and camaraderie. I guess--like the times--this has changed. Nonetheless, for this reason, I'm pulling my profile and will not "bother" you all any longer. Find someone else at whom to look down your noses.
> 
> ...


Please enlighten me on what this anger and resentment is from....Is there another thread somewhere?:ear:

It doesn't matter what my opinion is on your situation......I'm not here to judge anyone. Are you leaving the forum?


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

M, I did not intend to chase you off the forum when I posted. It's just that alot of people (99% or more) do not want to see a 9 month old male be bred to a 13 month old female with no health testing.. (other than your vet saying they are strong???) Seriously, what did you expect??? The name of this forum is not havanese-byb-forum.com

Ryan


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

All I have to say is "Wow!"


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Julie, there is no other thread. M initially posted that she had planned on waiting until her female was done with her second heat before she bred her to her male. But that despite duck taped panties (or something along those lines) and the female trying to get rid of the male, he had found his way 'to the fruits' earlier than she had planned, which happened around the holidays. Now she's looking forward to the pups (3 on the x-ray) which will be born in their sunroom. PLEASE NOTE that M didn't use the same exact words I used, this is what I BELIEVE to remember from her initial post. M, please feel free to correct me, if I recited you completely wrong!
Well and our answers to her initial post are still there for everyone to read. Hope that helps.


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

How sad for all concerned


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## suzyfrtz (Nov 12, 2007)

I was at a loss when I read the first post - ANOTHER person leaving the forum because of criticism and comments????

Really, guys, if her dog has puppies, what does that matter to the rest of you? 

OK, so it's my understanding that your collective beefs are that the mother is too young, there are too many puppies in the world, that there is no health testing...

Come on, let's just mind our own business here. It's not like she's setting up a puppy mill.

Suzy


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Suzy, I'm sorry but I totally disagree with you. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and if someone posts something on this PUBLIC forum about anything at all, they are opening the door to having those opinions voiced. Having been on this forum for almost a YEAR, M should have had a vague idea of how people would feel about her posting about breeding such young dogs together (granted an accident) and without health testing or a breeding program in mind (NOT an accident - M told me last August that she was planning on breeding these two together). In my opinion, if you don't want to hear people's opinions (positive OR negative), then don't post. If someone posts something that I don't like or agree with, I will try to educate them or ask questions or offer my opinion. That's just human nature and not something that is "wrong" with the forum.

And not a single person "jumped down her throat" over this... everyone was polite and nice about it. In my view, M is being extremely defensive and that's why she posted about leaving.

Also, if you want people to mind their own business, then why post your business for everyone to see? Just my 2 cents.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

I hope the mother and puppies are healthy and happy and all turns out well. 

It's kind of scary though considering the female's age. There probably aren't many breeders who have never had an "oops" litter.

It's so great to see all the healthy, beautiful litters born to the long time breeders here. We all feel a ping of jealosy.  Unfortunately they don't post about the beloved girl who needs an emergency C-section at 2 in the morning while they are praying to do anything at all if God will only let the dam and her pups live, or the little 2 oz pup who can't nurse and can't be force fed so they simply hold him/her close to their hearts while they breath their last. I can't imagine the responsibilty of bringing these lives into the world. 
I took my girls to my breeder to be groomed once. I told her it was so good of her to help me, that she really didn't have to. She gave me a strange look and said, "I brought them into this world, so it is my responsibility to help you."

I hope the pups are healthy and beautiful.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Is the female the 9 month old or the 18 month old? If this was her first season she must be under a year?


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

Threads aren't deleted upon request. You can delete your own posts if you want them removed. 
Moderator


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## CinnCinn (Mar 30, 2007)

Susan, oh my...tears! Is the risk worth it? Thanks for your thoughts on the subject.

Lina - You're right on. Public forum = Public opinions


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

mckennasedona said:


> It's so great to see all the healthy, beautiful litters born to the long time breeders here. We all feel a ping of jealosy.  Unfortunately they don't post about the beloved girl who needs an emergency C-section at 2 in the morning while they are praying to do anything at all if God will only let the dam and her pups live, or the little 2 oz pup who can't nurse and can't be force fed so they simply hold him/her close to their hearts while they breath their last. I can't imagine the responsibilty of bringing these lives into the world.
> I took my girls to my breeder to be groomed once. I told her it was so good of her to help me, that she really didn't have to. She gave me a strange look and said, "I brought them into this world, so it is my responsibility to help you."
> 
> I hope the pups are healthy and beautiful.


Susan,
How right you are!!! Having to get up as a breeder every 2 hours to feed a litter of puppies because the mom got eclampsia is not easy. Making deals with God in hopes your bitch will live is right on the money! Worrying about the mom not eating or drinking and making milk is stressful. Giving meds to both mom and puppies because of various things that can happen is costly and scary! Lot's of sleepless nights to say the least even when the best planning and all the health testing has been done. Looking at your bitch laying on the operating table being cut open to save the puppies and her is not a sight of joy. Your wonderful Breeder was there with me one time when that happened to me and thank God she was. It's like everything you know leaves your head and you are only consumed with thoughts of "Please make everything ok again". I worry the entire time when a bitch is pregnant and begin have quilty thoughts about a week before they are due for doing this to my dear girl. That worry continues for that puppies ENTIRE life.

Breeding isn't easy.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I just think this whole thing is very sad. It is certainly none of my business--but it was posted in such an angry and venomist way that it made me wonder wth? Seriously. I think on a havanese forum where we are all concerned for the well-being of the havanese breed and we all try to teach about breed education and education of healthy health-tested pups and such----it doesn't take much to just assume that you would generate alot of opinions on the matter. It is a shame.....the poor young female and male. I think this proves how having your pet spayed and neutered is the thing to do. No one should be a breeder that is not very well educated on the breed. Mistakes happen....no doubt....I think it is sad that this happened.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

:hug: Thank you Maryam.....:hug:


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I agree this whole thing is sad. I hope for the health of Lucy and her pups. And M- I wish you a wonderful experience bringing this litter into the world and caring for them. I too remember the delightful video of Lucy and I hope there are 3 little perfect Lucy's or Ricky's.

But I also see why many here are thinking _"Luuuuucccyyyy...you got a lot of 'splain'n to do"_

I know people think that to be healthy and happy a bitch should have at least one litter... (And of course boys will be boys whether they have their nuts or not :brushteeth

I know there are some studies that suggest that a dogs are healthier of they are not fixed. (although I have read more to say that in the long run fixing a male or female is healthier)

I also know a lot of people who just think "wouldn't it be fun to have a litter."

M (if you are still reading) I know you are an adult and this accident did just happen despite your best intentions... But I am just curious why you decided to breed in the first place even if it was sooner than expected? And what Lucy's breeder thinks of this?

I


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## suzyfrtz (Nov 12, 2007)

Lina said:


> And not a single person "jumped down her throat" over this... Also, if you want people to mind their own business, then why post your business for everyone to see? Just my 2 cents.


Lina, for the record, my post does not contain the words "jumped down her throat."

As for why she posted, maybe she wanted some hand-holding, some sympathy and support? I didn't see the original post so won't comment any further.
Suzy


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Suzy, I know you didn't. I put it in quotes because it's a saying, not because you said that. Sorry if it came off as if you were saying it.


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## Tritia (Nov 17, 2007)

I just kind of skimmed through this. I get the general idea of what happened, though. Kind of sad she felt she needed to jump ship. Cause I'm sure she could have really benefited from those that know so much about breeding and having puppies (and those that just act like know it alls). Not a lot of room on this board for error when it comes to these dogs...that's for sure.


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

If it had been an accidental thing, honestly, I probably wouldn't even have commented at all or said something like 'well, it's done, let's hope for the best'. Accidents are called accidents, because they happen unexpectedly and can happen to many despite precautions. BUT the fact that M intentionally planned on breeding them in the future led me to ask her about the health testing. I don't see how that is offending or judgmental. The only accident from M's point of view was that it happened earlier than she thought, not that it happened at all.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

From seeing the original posts, honestly, it just seems like she is one of those people who thinks its natural to breed dogs and does not really know any different. I mean, I probably thought like that before to... Soooooooooooo

Ryan


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

suzyfrtz said:


> As for why she posted, maybe she wanted some hand-holding, some sympathy and support? I didn't see the original post so won't comment any further.
> Suzy


Suzy--I just wanted to say,had you seen the first post in this thread like I did,I just do not feel she was looking for help and support. This forum group is so good at helping support each other,sympathize,hold hands,prayers etc. Generally speaking--the first post was blunt,rude and ended with the words "bite me!" in a smart ash way---I've never seen anyone wanting support to ask for like this....let alone get it.

I would of liked for her to state what happened,reach out for support and mentoring from one of the breeders here. It's a shame it was an" in your face",insulting post instead.

I just wanted to tell you Suzy:hug:


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## hedygs (May 23, 2007)

Seriously Julie? I thought the Bite Me came after she edited her original post telling us about the pregnancy?


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Julie- I think that was the second modified message after people expressed concern the first one was more about her buying an new home and the puppy being able to give birth on the sun room.

I am sorry she felt she had to leave but I think being on the forum for a year, she should expect people who love this breed are not going to be supportive of allowing two puppies with no health testing to breed so her relatives can have puppies. Having intact animals is a responsibility and so should breeding dogs. A lot of people on this forum are involved in HRI and know all too well what happens to a lot of backyard breed dogs- health and temperament wise.

Dasher is intact and let me tell you just from conformation class last week, he would have breed to the great dane in season if I would let him... having an intact dog is a responsibility. I chose to leave him that way so I have to make sure it doesn't happen cause it will if I give him any opportunity.

I also want to point out, I love getting advice on this forum from non breeders as well and I don't think anyone acts like a know it all. They just post from their experiences which can be very helpful and if I don't feel like they are, I just read past that post and look for others.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Amanda...I know it's not PC but I would like to see a Hav-a-Dane!!! just kidding!


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Missy-Ironically this is the bitch that loves Dasher (she likes lil dogs she was raised with them) and he normally doesnt like her cause she follows him around and licks him and is just all over him. I got to see first hand that nothing matters when it comes to that time! Quivering lip and all, I had to say no and drag him to the other side of the room.


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Julie, you read the second, edited post after Ryan, me, Amanda, and Kathy had posted our concerns (still available to read). Like Amanda said, M was describing how they moved to a bigger, 400K house, so her dogs could have more space and life quality and that it has a heated sun room where her Lucy would give birth to the puppies. In the same initial post she stated that she had planned on waiting after Lucy's 2nd heat to breed her, but that the dogs found their way to one another before that. It was very clear that this current pregnancy was an accident, but that she had planned on breeding them in the near future anyway. That's when we asked about their health testing, etc. I believe M had expected us to all be happy about the puppies and share this 'exciting' time with her. I think she got disappointed that her breeding plans raised our concern instead.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

The "bite me" comment really surprised me from anyone on this forum. I've asked for input and advice, realized I'd handled something improperly and felt terribly foolish! Lesson learned and hopefully not repeated. I post in the hope that I'll get the right information so I'm not offended when someone tells me what I need to hear. I was quite shocked at the tone of her post and feel badly for the mommy dog who is going to give birth at such a young age. I hope all of the dogs are healthy.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

ILoveLucy said:


> :closed_2:


I missed the post but got the idea after reading the thread. Good luck with the litter and I wish all the very best. I may not like it but what's done is done and as I've found, accidents do happen and we learn from them hopefully.
I health test an intact dog in the house whether I plan to breed or not so I was just plain lucky in that way but oh my you should see the lockdown we have now when there's a girl in heat and for days after a heat and there is no longer interest. 
If you're still reading, you can find the results of the accidental breeding on here somewhere. Weeks of lost sleep, twins in the litter, and we lost one of the twins. 
Someone asked if the health testing could be done after the fact. Part of it, yes. I wouldn't do the female's hips and the eye dr we use won't do a CERF on a pregnant bitch.


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

I saw the 2nd edited post, no wonder it did not make sense when the 2nd post said something about a heated sun floor. I wished the original post was left as it was posted because a lot of us do not know what was said. I am surprised I did not receive the original post, she must of edited it very quickly after posting.

What a heated discussion and so sad to lose a member. And yes, so sad for a young dog being pregnant without the proper testing being done. What is done is done, let's all learn from the experience. 

I am here to learn, learn, learn, and let others know what my experiences are with my new Hav puppy. I have no interest in breeding and leave this task to the breeders who are knowledgeable in the Hav breed standards.

Let's continue to support one another and learn from each other, this a a good group of people. 

Please carefully with what you post, because you will get replies either good or bad. Reread your posts several times very carefully before you hit that send button because you may get a reply you do not like or hurts your feelings or you don't understand why that person said that and you take the post personal. 

We are not bad people here, we have concerns and questions and if you post something, just be prepared because you will get a response from someone.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

hedygs said:


> Seriously Julie? I thought the Bite Me came after she edited her original post telling us about the pregnancy?


Yes seriously--

I can see where she may have edited more or less---but when I first read the thread,in her first post it was rude quite venomist and said "bite me" at the end. My first thought was WTF? I figured something must of happened somewhere.....but when someone new comes to read a thread and it says stuff like that.....let's just say it doesn't make me feel sympathic or anything.

It is none of my business whether she bred or not,but I find it kinda sad. I certainly do not know anything about proper breeding,but evidently she didn't either. I'm glad I spay or neuter my pets personally...I don't want the "mess" headaches and responsibilties myself.

I can see though--that others know more the order of her posts and what she edited in or out....what I am just stating really,is that when I first read it it said "bite me" and had a tone to it that definitely caught me off guard. I don't doubt that any of the others have it correct---I'm just saying I do too because I came into it late in the game,I guess.See?


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## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

I do believe someone is acting very childish. but as the saying goes. "This too shall pass"


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

:behindsofa:

is she gone?
ugh.


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## micki2much (Feb 8, 2007)

gelbergirl said:


> :behindsofa:
> 
> is she gone?
> ugh.


ound:ound:ound:ound:


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I had to ban her from further posts till Melissa and Dawna are available. She is still able to be invisible and read however I believe? I'm not sure--but after the explosion,I had no choice but to ban her. I wish I could delete her membership as she asked repeatedly,but I'm not sure how. None the less,she could always do the other alternative and not come on the forum at all.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

gelbergirl said:


> :behindsofa:
> 
> is she gone?
> ugh.


LOL, yes she's gone. Notice the "Banned" written underneath her username (look at the first post). How sad for her, she didn't get her wish to have her posts and account deleted, she just got banned and now can't act like a 5-year-old anymore. boo hoo!

Okay, sorry, I'm feeling a tiny bit bitchy today.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

All i could think was ... wouldn't her time be better spent with her pregnant little girl.


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Oink, Julie, good to know you have the power to ban members, glad I was nice to you so far


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Well, personally, I would just leave her banned instead of caving into her childish display and deleting all her threads... but then again I was always against caving into a kid's tantrums so that's probably why I think that.


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## mishelly1976 (Jan 12, 2009)

My gosh - she posted _everywhere_! Sheesh! I think *she *needs some temperment testing!


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

As one of the first people that read this thread... she never said bite me till everyone starting getting up in her business. Her original post was nice.. 

Ryan


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Ryan, true that. I tried to re-write the quintessence of her initial post to be fair, but I guess it doesn't matter at this point anymore.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Hey what happened, I go away to eat dinner and drool over some puppy pictures and all the entertainment went away. Darn I was looking forward to a bunch of laughs tonight.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Beamer said:


> As one of the first people that read this thread... she never said bite me till everyone starting getting up in her business. Her original post was nice..
> 
> Ryan


Like I said--a few times now--I came into this thread late. When I saw it the first time it was rude and with bite me at the end. That being said----I don't know who said what or any of that /other then what was posted when I first read the thread.

People do not _generally_ get in someone's business unless it is posted. If you post info on a public forum,it is going to be *Public*,people are going to comment. That's the purpose. Some good/some bad/some inbetween...but you can not expect it to stay your business if you post it on a public forum.

I hate to see anyone leave,but it is everyone's choice to leave or stay if they want to...read as little or as much as you like.

Lina--I had to delete all the threads as it was filling up the forum with a tantrum...I felt it was a shame to post her venom at everyone here...and the threads were being titled with more and more anger. I understand what you are saying though.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

mishelly1976 said:


> My gosh - she posted _everywhere_! Sheesh! I think *she *needs some temperment testing!


ound:


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Julie said:


> Like I said--a few times now--I came into this thread late. When I saw it the first time it was rude and with bite me at the end. That being said----I don't know who said what or any of that /other then what was posted when I first read the thread.
> 
> People do not _generally_ get in someone's business unless it is posted. If you post info on a public forum,it is going to be *Public*,people are going to comment. That's the purpose. Some good/some bad/some inbetween...but you can not expect it to stay your business if you post it on a public forum.
> 
> ...


Julie, I agree with you deleting her other threads, I just meant this specific thread in general.

Also, I totally agree with what you said about getting comments when you post in a public forum - I said as much in the first page of this thread. Also, even if you don't like what people say to you, there is absolutely NO excuse, IMO, to act like a child, say "bite me" and post a million threads just to act obnoxious. Honestly, I don't want someone who could act like that around here anyway... I don't think any of us would do something that childish and ridiculous.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Missy said:


> Amanda...I know it's not PC but I would like to see a Hav-a-Dane!!! just kidding!


Imagine the rise that puppy could have! ound:


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## PepperToast (Oct 27, 2008)

It might be a good idea for the forum owner to post a thread to permanently stay at the top of pertinent lists that states the general belief of who should breed/ where you should get your puppy from etc. I don't know... or maybe a mission statement of the forum. That way threads like this one (I know this was a very extreme example) might not occur. As a newish forum member I can say that there tends to be a predominant way of thinking by the contributors and those people feel free to state what they believe (as they should be) but... it can come across as a bit harsh or condescending and as a result turn away people that need support or educating. 

It is sickening to see things like this transpire in what is a group of people who LOVE their dogs and the breed. 

Meeka


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

Kathy said:


> Susan,
> How right you are!!! Having to get up as a breeder every 2 hours to feed a litter of puppies because the mom got eclampsia is not easy. Making deals with God in hopes your bitch will live is right on the money! Worrying about the mom not eating or drinking and making milk is stressful. Giving meds to both mom and puppies because of various things that can happen is costly and scary! Lot's of sleepless nights to say the least even when the best planning and all the health testing has been done. Looking at your bitch laying on the operating table being cut open to save the puppies and her is not a sight of joy. Your wonderful Breeder was there with me one time when that happened to me and thank God she was. It's like everything you know leaves your head and you are only consumed with thoughts of "Please make everything ok again". I worry the entire time when a bitch is pregnant and begin have quilty thoughts about a week before they are due for doing this to my dear girl. That worry continues for that puppies ENTIRE life.
> 
> Breeding isn't easy.


Yay! Now I finally have the EXACT wording to tell people why I spayed Posh, and the answer to their "but she's so great wouldn't you have liked to have her puppies?" question.

I am not a breeder nor do I ever plan to be a breeder because I know it's not easy and not something you can just "do off the cuff."

I really actually love this sort of controversy because it reminds me that people really need to be educated constantly about what it means to be not only a responsible breeder, but a responsible pet owner. Life is filled with mistakes, accidents, heartache, whatever, but it is also filled with CHOICES and the choices we may or may not make do have an effect. The choice M made to keep her dogs intact came with an extra helping of this cause and effect relationship.

Honestly, if I see a dog in class with "balls" and I hear the owner is keeping their male intact "just in case" or because of some penis anxiety, I have to fight all the urges in me not to :fish:. Responsible pet owners, educated pet owners, know better. I'm not going to sugar coat it.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Posh's Mom said:


> Honestly, if I see a dog in class with "balls" and I hear the owner is keeping their male intact "just in case" or because of some penis anxiety, I have to fight all the urges in me not to :fish:. Responsible pet owners, educated pet owners, know better. I'm not going to sugar coat it.


Amy,
I have to laugh at this!ound:
I know exactly what you are saying. As I've gotten older I've learned more and honestly think most everyone should have their pet spayed or neutered. I see no excuse for it,and particularly now since I am working at my vet's office as a kennel assistant. You see it (the phobia around "nut sacks") in particular. I have had to take care of several in tact males....imagine a pit bull in tact and the owners say,well he doesn't like other male dogs.:der: I just want so badly to say duh!!! Here's a thought---

I had a golden retriever one weekend that was in tact. He wasn't mean to others,but the crazy thing marked everywhere and actually pissed on another little dog through the kennel. It was just gross! It actually kinda made me mad because I thought WTH? Have this dog neutered!!! Of course-I can't say anything,but I'd sure love to!


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

I totally agree Lina. You can't join a public forum, thow a hissy and then demand to have everything you posted removed. Users don't own the other posts in a thread, but can delete or modify their own posts. Threads constitute forum history, in my opinion. 
:biggrin1:
Sorry I wasn't available earlier when all the drama began. I was at the river...fishing. Way more fun than drama. hehe


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

And Im in the arctic shooting polar bears! Way more fun that drama too. I had to fire up my broken computer and try to get online just to get this woman to STOP emailing me, its flooding my blackberry. 

I see Dawna took care of it, thanks so much! Im going to close this one. I cant see any other good that can come of it.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

I think in her original post she thought we were going to all think it was wonderful. After all, we are always gushing over new puppies. I don't think she expected the answers she got from us. But, our love of these same puppies and their well-being come first.


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