# Red or Red Brindle color question



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

I know Red is not a common color with Havs, but we do see some pretty nice red colors. Red vs. Red Brindle..what is the difference? I see lots of "reds" who turn golden or cream with tips. Then I see some that have Dark Red, with White and then almost black tipping...are these considered Red Brindles? 
Or do Red Brindles change to the "brown" shade later? Thanks!!:spy:


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## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

I thought Brindles have black mixed in with what ever other color they have. So a red brindle would be black hairs mixed in with the Red hair.


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## misstray (Feb 6, 2011)

I thought brindle was a pattern that had to do with striping. This havanese colour thing gets me so confused.


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## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

I don't think Brindle get different color tips, but a solid color through the entire hair. The dogs carrying the Agouti Gene are the ones that may have different shades in the same hair.

From the Colours of the Rainbow Site:



> BRINDLE - Much confusion surrounds brindle markings. Brindle combinations give dark bands, more or less regular tiger striped on a lighter background any shade from cream, champagne, tan, gold or red. ( ie. Similar to brindle coats of the Boxer or Dane). Tiger stripes are apparent at birth and may run all over the body from head to tail tip in splotches, streaks or stripes of black or brown and to a lesser extent on the belly and underbody. Stripes may be bold and distinct or faint and subtle. Brindle dogs often have a dark mask on the face and at birth, may have black ears, paws and tail as well as a dark dorsal stripe. New born Brindle puppies will have a definite striped or mottled appearance.





> AGOUTI - or WILD - Some Havanese are said to have agouti hair, where each individual hair is banded in three to five or more rings of alternating dark/light colour like a rabbit or wolf. In dogs, Agouti coats are found on the Keeshond, Norweigan Elkhound, Siberian Huskies and other Spitz breeds. The ring changes are abrupt dark to light and not at all like the shaded bandings you may find in Sables and brindles. See below. The coat will be banded on the neck, shoulders, back and rump and be lighter coloured on the chest belly and inner legs. Controversy exists whether Agouti is a separate pattern of its own or a variation of Brindle or Sable. In other breeds, Agouti is genetically different from both. The same is likely true of Havanese. Not only an individual colour or marking, the term "agouti" is also the broader name of a gene which encompasses many patterns. See the inheritance page for more information


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

And speaking of the agouti gene, Kodi has developed some white hairs on his head. When I looked at him closely, I realized that every single hair is banded, black, white, black, white, etc. Never knew that happened with black hair. Anyone else see that on their black (or partially black) dogs?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> I know Red is not a common color with Havs, but we do see some pretty nice red colors. Red vs. Red Brindle..what is the difference? I see lots of "reds" who turn golden or cream with tips. Then I see some that have Dark Red, with White and then almost black tipping...are these considered Red Brindles?
> Or do Red Brindles change to the "brown" shade later? Thanks!!:spy:


I don't know for sure, though I do believe that brindles, no matter what the base color, have to show the tiger striping, right from the roots, from birth.

What's SO cool is that a good friend of mine has an ADORABLE DEEP red irish pied puppy from Baribal's in Germany arriving at the end of the month. The parents are both deep red, and the line holds its color well. So if all goes well, we could have a really nice red stud here in N.E.! (in the mean time, I get to play with him!:biggrin1


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

I am still not sure, but think the dogs that have the tipping are Red Brindle Pieds..been reading ABCs of Color. Some of the red brindle's I see photos of as young puppies look brownish red, but more brown..


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

Tillie is listed as an "Irish Red Peid" ... we can all see how well she retained HER color...ound:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> I am still not sure, but think the dogs that have the tipping are Red Brindle Pieds..been reading ABCs of Color. Some of the red brindle's I see photos of as young puppies look brownish red, but more brown..


Pied doesn't have anything to do with tipping... that's the distribution of white and colored areas on the dog.

It's hard to see brindle on a Hav unless you see them when they are first born, and the coat is VERY short. Brindle is the tiger-stripe pattern you see on some Great Danes, Mastiffs and Grey Hounds.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I've only ever seen one brindle of any flavor that didn't lighten a lot. Some reds hold color, and some don't.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

krandall said:


> And speaking of the agouti gene, Kodi has developed some white hairs on his head. When I looked at him closely, I realized that every single hair is banded, black, white, black, white, etc. Never knew that happened with black hair. Anyone else see that on their black (or partially black) dogs?


Karen, Tucker has banding that is black, gray, black, gray on his head. It is fascinating, isn't it?


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

krandall said:


> And speaking of the agouti gene, Kodi has developed some white hairs on his head. When I looked at him closely, I realized that every single hair is banded, black, white, black, white, etc. Never knew that happened with black hair. Anyone else see that on their black (or partially black) dogs?


He inherited that from Twinkle, but I've never seen it on any of the Beltons. Twinkles went Black, Silver, White for a long time, but the black has been gone for years. Now it's just different shades of silver and white. I'm not saying none of our other Beltons have it. I've just never seen it.


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## Lizzie'sMom (Oct 13, 2010)

krandall said:


> And speaking of the agouti gene, Kodi has developed some white hairs on his head. When I looked at him closely, I realized that every single hair is banded, black, white, black, white, etc. Never knew that happened with black hair. Anyone else see that on their black (or partially black) dogs?


Lizzie's white hair is like this. It is white and dark. Not black but gray, maybe?? It is evenly spaced, too. I don't see it when her hair is on her-I see it when I look at the hair I pick off my clothes!


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## IWAPsoon (Jul 31, 2011)

I too am fascinated by the color differences in Havs and have searched for more examples of them. I found this on one of my many searches. NOTE I AM NOT ENDORSING THIS BREEDER AS I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THEIR WEBSITE. I AM ONLY SHOWING THE LINK FOR THE COLOR EXAMPLES.

http://www.felici-animali.be/PdC_en_colours.htm


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## heatherk (Feb 24, 2011)

krandall said:


> And speaking of the agouti gene, Kodi has developed some white hairs on his head. When I looked at him closely, I realized that every single hair is banded, black, white, black, white, etc. Never knew that happened with black hair. Anyone else see that on their black (or partially black) dogs?


Karen, (and others who have noticed banding), how wide are the bands?

Cey's hair is mostly goldish cream but he does have black hairs scattered randomly all down his back, and a lot of them tend to be very widely banded black and cream. At first, I thought that he was just outgrowing his black hairs, because I noticed that a lot of them were coming in cream at the roots - but then I noticed others that had grown in cream for a while (an inch and a half to two inches) but then are growing in black again at the roots, so they are black at the tips, cream for a couple of inches in the middle, and the black again at the roots! Amazing what changes they go through!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tom King said:


> He inherited that from Twinkle, but I've never seen it on any of the Beltons. Twinkles went Black, Silver, White for a long time, but the black has been gone for years. Now it's just different shades of silver and white. I'm not saying none of our other Beltons have it. I've just never seen it.


You have to really look to see it... I'm not even sure what made me notice it. He doesn't have a lot of white hair on his head, but if you look closely, it's striped.

The other funny thing is that he has a couple of spots where he has been bitten by ticks in the past, and the hair in THOSE places grows in solid white... no stripes. Reminds me of the white patches hoses sometimes get on their withers from blanket rubs.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

IWAPsoon said:


> I too am fascinated by the color differences in Havs and have searched for more examples of them. I found this on one of my many searches. NOTE I AM NOT ENDORSING THIS BREEDER AS I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THEIR WEBSITE. I AM ONLY SHOWING THE LINK FOR THE COLOR EXAMPLES.
> 
> http://www.felici-animali.be/PdC_en_colours.htm


Thanks for sharing! I haven't seen that site before!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

heatherk said:


> Karen, (and others who have noticed banding), how wide are the bands?
> 
> Cey's hair is mostly goldish cream but he does have black hairs scattered randomly all down his back, and a lot of them tend to be very widely banded black and cream. At first, I thought that he was just outgrowing his black hairs, because I noticed that a lot of them were coming in cream at the roots - but then I noticed others that had grown in cream for a while (an inch and a half to two inches) but then are growing in black again at the roots, so they are black at the tips, cream for a couple of inches in the middle, and the black again at the roots! Amazing what changes they go through!


I would say probably 1/8"... no more than 3/16".


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

Tom King said:


> I've only ever seen one brindle of any flavor that didn't lighten a lot. Some reds hold color, and some don't.


Thanks all...I don't see many "reds" over 2, and some I see designated red actually look brown to me..maybe I am color blind, but chances are it is the photo..


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> Thanks all...I don't see many "reds" over 2, and some I see designated red actually look brown to me..maybe I am color blind, but chances are it is the photo..


It definitely depends on the time of day and the quality of the light. I've noticed that the most dramatic photos of reds have been taken in low, "golden" afternoon light.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

The tipping, to the best of my knowledge is the sable. Ruby had it and she's a red sable.


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Brindle="tiger stripes"
There are different variations of bridle with different "base" colors. I'm not sure what the official names of them are but on the pits/mastiffs/boxers/danes I call them red brindles, brown brindles, and blue brindles. 

You can easily see brindle on short hair, but as it grows long the hairs no longer lie close together and it becomes much less defined, like when you take a fine pencil drawing and smudge it. On a really shaggy Scottish Terrier I coundn't tell what color it was as it seemed like a really dull black. He was getting shaved on the pattern and as the long hair got clipped back I could clearly see he was brindle! I thought it was cool bc I never saw a brindle scottie (most are black) and I was pretty sure he was black, not actually a brindle.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

IWAPsoon said:


> I too am fascinated by the color differences in Havs and have searched for more examples of them. I found this on one of my many searches. NOTE I AM NOT ENDORSING THIS BREEDER AS I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THEIR WEBSITE. I AM ONLY SHOWING THE LINK FOR THE COLOR EXAMPLES.
> 
> http://www.felici-animali.be/PdC_en_colours.htm


I really love that site for color information. It looks like the kennel is inactive or the site is inactive, but the color information is wonderful. So much information on Chocolates too. I like all colors actually, but my favorite thing is seeing some of the Havs change color so drastically...that is the fun part. Have a strained back right now so cannot sit at the computer for long enough to answer everyone, but thank you all!!
Which color do you think changes the most?


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