# Dew Claws



## Gableshavs

Should I get my new litter's dew claws removed? I'm weighing the pro's and cons. This is my first litter so all advice is greatly welcomed and appreciated.


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## Julie

Paula,
I know my advice means nothing--but speaking from a pet owners point of view, I would always opt to have them removed. Quincy caught his and was hanging by it from a lawn chair at 5-6 months. I had them removed with his neuter and it was so much harder on him later like that. He is the only dog I've ever had with dew claws....

However I don't think it is common to have them removed from havs.


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## brandy

Im intersted to see what others suggest as well. In general I do them but sometimes I dont. When I dont it's because of the mom. If it was a stressful delivery or her first litter or she is extremely upset when the puppies are not with her then I dont do it. When I dont, I always let the new mommy and daddy's know that if it becomes an issue with them getting in the way then they can always have it done when they are neutered or spayed.


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## Kathy

Gableshavs said:


> Should I get my new litter's dew claws removed? I'm weighing the pro's and cons. This is my first litter so all advice is greatly welcomed and appreciated.


I didn't do it on my first couple of litter's because of info I had read. However, I do it now and I am glad I do.


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## brandy

Just read quincys reply and wanted to add I always reccomend take home pain medication with neuter and spays but if dew-claws need removed it certainly eases the pain. Sometimes they are just hanging on by skin and sometimes they are conected to bone. They heal quickly.


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## Kathy

brandy said:


> When I dont, I always let the new mommy and daddy's know that if it becomes an issue with them getting in the way then they can always have it done when they are neutered or spayed.


Brandy,
My vet doesn't recommend doing this once they are older. I am surprised you recommend to your puppy buyers to do this. My understanding is it very painful to have done later and can cause other problems too.


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## Julie

Oh I can tell you from my experience,it WAS a big deal. Quincy did not heal quickly.Maybe it was because how they were attached,IDK,but it certainly was painful and hard on him. That was harder on him then the neuter. I really wish they would of been done when he was super tiny. I'm not a breeder--but it was a horrible experience for both him and me.


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## Gableshavs

So, the puppies were born yesterday. How long do I wait to have them removed? Is it something you would do with your first litter?


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## brandy

Kathy said:


> Brandy,
> My vet doesn't recommend doing this once they are older. I am surprised you recommend to your puppy buyers to do this. My understanding is it very painful to have done later and can cause other problems too.


Read my post again. You misunderstood it. I normally do it when they are babies but if for some reason I dont AND IF it becomes an issuse later then I reccomend they do it when spayed or neutered and always with take home pain meds wich should be given with the spay or neuter anyway. Normally they heal quickly with no problems.


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## brandy

Gableshavs said:


> So, the puppies were born yesterday. How long do I wait to have them removed? Is it something you would do with your first litter?


normally between 3 to 5 days old. Make sure you keep the puppies in their carrier to protect them and take mom (you never know what will happen on the way to and from the vet and dont want hungry puppies) but leave her in the car so as not to upset her. She will get very upset if she hears the babies. Some are very loud and others just a little yipe. But I always feel so bad for them.


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## MopTop Havanese

I do have them removed. I think it is much easier when it comes to grooming for the average pet owner.
Some of my adult dogs have them, a couple dont. I prefer the ones that dont!


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## ama0722

Most working and agility dog folks think the dogs need them for maneuvering (just another prospective). I have two with and one without. They can be a pain if you forget to clip them every time and with long hair dogs it is easy to not see them.


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## Scooter's Family

Maybe a dumb question...Scooter has a pad higher up on his front legs but no claw there. Does that mean they've been removed? Are they only on the front legs?


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## brandy

with my litters they have only been on the front legs but I have seen many other breeds have them on the back as well. 
Im not sure what pad your talking about. They dont have a pad with the dew-claw it's just like a thumb on the side a little ways up from the paw. search through her fur to see if you can find one. Your breeder can tell you if she removed them or not too.


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## brandy

Oh, your talking about the carpal pad. It's not a pad for the dew-claw and the carpal pad is only on the front legs.


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## MopTop Havanese

ps~ I have mine removed on the puppies before they are 4 days old~~


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## Gableshavs

I called my vet, he says it's a matter of preference. He gives them a swab with anesthesia before removing the claw, he says it's not hard on the puppies. So Friday, friends is our day to take the first car trip to visit our vet. Also, I want to have him check Mari, she's my baby too.


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## brandy

that's great that your vet swabs them with anestheia. Mine does as well but not all vets do. It helps them a lot. Ive always noticed them to be worn out from the ordeal but perk up the next day.


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## Tom King

We get all ours done when they are 2 or 3 days old unless for some reason the vet we like to use for this is not available until they are older. At that age they are not attached to anything and it's like a little seed that a pointed pair of hemostats takes right off. This vet just swabs them with Novalsan before pinching them off.

Twinkle still has hers and she gets them caught in something about once a year and screams in agony. We hold the pups while this vet pinches them off and at worst maybe one out of five lets out a little yelp and then it's over, so we feel like it's the lesser of evils to get them taken off than to be bothered by them later like Twinkle is. 

Lighter colored pups may bleed a little bit but with a little pressure held for 20 seconds it stops.

The dewclaw is too high on the leg to have any effect on maneuverability.


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## ama0722

A lot of people disagree with you Tom. It is said they are useful for speed and maneuvering- I watched a video showing aussies that were making turns but I can't find it. I will post it if I do.

Here is one vet's report on agility and arthritis with no dewclaws.
http://www.sadonalabradors.com/dewclawsinjury.pdf


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## Tom King

I'll put Posh or Meg up against any other Havanese with or without dewclaws for both speed and maneuverability, for real money, and both of them are without dewclaws. They are just too high up on the leg to do any good on Havanese. Maybe they are different on Aussies.

I just checked Twinkle's dewclaws and there is no muscle tone around them to do any good with traction and they are too high above the ground to do any good if they did. We have puppies who are close to 10 years old and none have had any kind of hitch in their getalong including any kind of arthritis.

Of course to each his own but we will do without dewclaws.

We've never had owners of puppies without dewclaws tell us that they wished that their dogs had dewclaws but of the few litters we've had who do have them we've had two owners ask us why we didn't take them off since their dogs hated having them trimmed.

The three Labs we've owned and the two my parents have owned all had their dewclaws and all five developed arthritis so I don't think it's a fair comparison between Havs and Labs.

Trying a link to a pic of Meg in a turn: http://www.starbornhavanese.com/images/DSCN5110.JPG notice how the inside rear leg is engaged and you can see that it's at full speed. Full size it and you will get a larger pic.


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## ama0722

Tom-Well I just have plain old havanese and not no fancy silk dogs so maybe you would win


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## brandy

Oh Geese. 
I have to chime in just to say in my experience being a vet nurse not all dew-claws are attached the same. Some can be functional and some just by a flab of skin regardless of breed. I dont know how they do or dont funtion in agility or other events but I have heard and worked with breeders in the past that do keep the dew-claws on for agility purposes. Im not an expert in this area but had to say that all dogs dew-claws can be differnt even in the same breed.


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## JASHavanese

brandy said:


> Im intersted to see what others suggest as well. In general I do them but sometimes I dont. When I dont it's because of the mom. If it was a stressful delivery or her first litter or she is extremely upset when the puppies are not with her then I dont do it. When I dont, I always let the new mommy and daddy's know that if it becomes an issue with them getting in the way then they can always have it done when they are neutered or spayed.


Brandy, getting a dew claw cut off at that time is like having your thumb cut off. No pain, huh?


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## JASHavanese

ama0722 said:


> Tom-Well I just have plain old havanese and not no fancy silk dogs so maybe you would win


ound:ound: :cheer2::cheer2: ound:ound:


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## JASHavanese

brandy said:


> Oh Geese.
> I have to chime in just to say in my experience being a vet nurse not all dew-claws are attached the same. Some can be functional and some just by a flab of skin regardless of breed. I dont know how they do or dont funtion in agility or other events but I have heard and worked with breeders in the past that do keep the dew-claws on for agility purposes. Im not an expert in this area but had to say that all dogs dew-claws can be differnt even in the same breed.


If you're a vet nurse and see sick dogs coming in with inherited health problems, why don't you health test? Or maybe you do and don't submit to OFA?


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## JASHavanese

Scooter's Family said:


> Maybe a dumb question...Scooter has a pad higher up on his front legs but no claw there. Does that mean they've been removed? Are they only on the front legs?


Someone I talked to has a line of Havs that have rear dew claws. I haven't seen it in person, that's just what I was told.


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## JASHavanese

Gableshavs said:


> Should I get my new litter's dew claws removed? I'm weighing the pro's and cons. This is my first litter so all advice is greatly welcomed and appreciated.


Paula, I leave them. If you're going to get them done, try to do it in the first 3 days


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## brandy

JASHavanese said:


> Brandy, getting a dew claw cut off at that time is like having your thumb cut off. No pain, huh?


Of course there is pain. I never said there wouldnt be pain. Their is also pain when they take them off at 3 days old. Just becasue they are 3 days old doesnt mean they dont feel pain. The bone is softer but it still hurts and they dont get any pain meds except maybe a swab of anesthia on the skin. They are always wimpering and listless and eat less until the next day so dont tell me their not in pain then. 
Also, what I said was "IF" I dont have them removed when they are babies and "IF" they become a problem should be removed when they get neutered or spayed so they are under anesthia and get pain meds to give at home. I dont tell people to do it UNLESS the puppy is constantly irratating and hurting it. 
Also, many dogs never need them removed and many dog owners keep them on intentionally. 
This is becoming a way bigger deal out this then it is.


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## MopTop Havanese

I have had 5 litters, and the only puppy that I didn't have dew claws removed on was Heidi (because she was WAY to fragile after her difficult birth and I wasn't going to risk anything with her)~
But I have NEVER had the puppies wimper or listless or not eat after they are done. They honestly don't act any different in my experience!


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## Elaine

I have them removed any time from the day they are born until 5 days old. The older they are the more work it is to remove them. The only time I don't do it is if I have a very fragile puppy and I do not want to stress it. I do know of an earth dog that lost a dew claw in competition and it ripped the whole leg and tendon out, which left major surgery and also a very lame dog. I do have two dogs that do agility without the dew claws and one was Joy who was invited to Eukanuba last year. With small dogs I am not sure if it makes a difference in how they preform in the ring or not. I do know in the larger dogs they use them to grip. I have had the dew claws removed on an older puppy and it is painful but I have not had any problems once they heal. When I use to do grooming professionally I hated seeing the dew claws that people neglected and they grew into the back of the pad and were painful. I think it is just a personal preference and both my vets will do it. My repro vet uses a forcep (? sp.) and pops it off then uses a special glue to close it and they heal quit well. My g.p. vet does them around 5 days and actually removes the bone that holds the toe and does one suture. I stay with my mom and puppies the whole time they are doing the procedure. I like having them done as early as possible. The puppies do not remember any of it and the mom stays in the kennel and I put each back as they are done so she is happy. This is just my experience. Good luck with your new puppies and we look forward to watching them grow.


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## Havlady

I get all babies done in the first 2-3 days. If for some reason they can't be done by 3 days - I don't do them. The pups I have done after 3 days whine often for a day. If they are done on day 2 or 3 there is little discomfort to the pups. I have heard it is very painful if done later and I would never recommend anyone do it at the time of a neuter.
I have done dews in other breeds as well - I have never had rear dews - but all have front ones.


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## brandy

JASHavanese said:


> Brandy, getting a dew claw cut off at that time is like having your thumb cut off. No pain, huh?





JASHavanese said:


> If you're a vet nurse and see sick dogs coming in with inherited health problems, why don't you health test? Or maybe you do and don't submit to OFA?


What is with the attitude from some of you breeders today?! Im sure the other breeder on this forum that Ive been going back and forth with all day will be happy to give you my info. Of course I screen my dogs! I care about the breed and the offspring!


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## JASHavanese

brandy said:


> What is with the attitude from some of you breeders today?! Im sure the other breeder on this forum that Ive been going back and forth with all day will be happy to give you my info. Of course I screen my dogs! I care about the breed and the offspring!


Our attitude about health testing comes from watching the numbers of health problems come down over the years because we health test the parents and are able to breed away from problems because of it.
What does 'screen your dogs' mean?


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## brandy

JASHavanese said:


> Our attitude about health testing comes from watching the numbers of health problems come down over the years because we health test the parents and are able to breed away from problems because of it.
> What does 'screen your dogs' mean?


Well you know what, the way I have been approached by some breeders is a really piss poor way to approach the subject! I deal with this subject almost daily as well but the only time I give anyone a hard time is when they are puppymills or back yard breeders and just simply dont care to learn. But I can tell you that you will not be able to share your knowledge on the subject with any breeder when you approach them with an attitude. When you come off with an attitude you will get more resitence so if those breeders that choose to do so are failing their breed but not educating the breeders who need it most!


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## Havtahava

I do not remove dew claws and my decision came from trainers in performance events. I read too many stories of dogs stretching tendons (or is it ligaments? - I always get them confused).

I don't agree with docking - not even poodle tails, or ear cropping, and I don't do dew claw removal. Sterlization is the only time I advocate the removal of something they were born with. I don't knock breeders that remove dew claws in the first few days, but it isn't something I would do. Later than that is cruel - unless there has been injury or tears that dictate it.

Brandy, I think the health screening/testing is probably not the same as what the Havanese Club of America recommends. They recommend certain tests to be done and sent in on applications you can find at OFA. Their web site is www.offa.org. You can find the applications there and send them in yourself after the veterinarian goes over the dog and signs the form. It's a pretty easy process.


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## Havlady

I am also curious what does "screen your dogs mean"? I do Baer, CERF(annually), Hips, Elbows, Patellas, Cardiac, LCP and Thyroid. I also run SA320's w bile acids before breeding anything. (And then only if they pass everything). All testing is submitted to OFA and I sign the box for results to be published PASS or FAIL.


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## JASHavanese

brandy said:


> Well you know what, the way I have been approached by some breeders is a really piss poor way to approach the subject! I deal with this subject almost daily as well but the only time I give anyone a hard time is when they are puppymills or back yard breeders and just simply dont care to learn. But I can tell you that you will not be able to share your knowledge on the subject with any breeder when you approach them with an attitude. When you come off with an attitude you will get more resitence so if those breeders that choose to do so are failing their breed but not educating the breeders who need it most!


I haven't gotten nasty but certainly can with a hurricane coming right at me since my nerves are a little over the top.
I believe my question as well as Joan's is what does health screening mean?
I'm sorry you took offense to that question but it does deserve an answer.


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## EstrellaVila

Both my Havs, a rescue, and my Burrito, have their dew claws. I dont know much about dew claw removal but I think that it is a personal choice. I make sure both my babies get their nails trimmed regularly and the dew claw is attended to. 

Kimberly, just curious but what could happen to a tendon/ligament from dew claw removal? 

Thanks for the information on this topic.


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## brandy

If you feel the need to Jan, then bring it! Some of you are so focused on getting my story today that the threads Im posting on keep getting hyjacked and Ive been private emailing all day and my whole day has been shot. If you want to play nice Im happy to play otherwise forget it. 

Kimberly you have always been pleasent to talk with, thank you, I appriate that. 

I care very much about the breed and animals in general. I care about the health of my dogs and the offspring they produce. I work with a well respected breeding specialist who evaluates my dogs hips, hearts, eyes, and patellas. I do not register with OFA....dun dun dun dun.... I have spent many years taking the x-rays for OFA and evaluating them wiht the doctor before they are sent. Not to say Im a know it all by any means. I have the upmost trust in my vet. I just dont see the need to pay someone to register the results on their web site.


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## brandy

Im signing off for now. Ive been sitting her allllll day talking to anohter breeder and my butt's numb and have things to do. If anyone at all has questions or something constructive or helpful they would like to talk to me about you can contact me either through private email or my personal email (you can get it off my web site link) that is fine with me. Now you should all get back to reason for this thread.


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## Melissa Miller

Actually Brandy.. I think its just because you are posting a lot and offering advice as a breeder. So people not familiar with you, check out your website to see what experience you have or what you are producing. When they see no health testing a red flag goes up, as it should. 

Since we all preach to make sure all breeders have health testing done that can be verified by OFA.. and your not doing that, then you will get asked questions. And avoiding it by telling people you will discuss it privately and you screen your dogs etc.. all raise questions. 

Since you speak of litters and you have your website available in every post, knowing puppy buyers could go there, I dont think its too much to ask to post your health testing publicly. Its not the first time this has come up. 

IF ANY Breeder was posting here who did not publicize their health testing, they would be questioned. Dont take it personal.


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## Beamer

Just wondering, how much does it actually cost to post your results online??

Ryan


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## Havtahava

Ryan, most tests cost a piddly $15: BAER, Cardiac, Thyroid, and Patellar Luxation. If you send in multiple applications for a test at once, then it is usually cheaper. One of the tests is free (LCP) and the hips & elbows cost a little more ($35 each or $40 for both sent in together).

If you pay full price for all of those tests, then it will cost you an additional $130 for each parent ($260 if you own both dogs and do ALL the testing), and that's pretty small potatoes, especially if you are charging over $1900 for each puppy.

Oh, and each puppy should have their BAER testing done before they leave too, so add $15 per puppy _or _$30 for 3+ pups. Now the total for both parents *and *all of the puppies is $290 to document the results.

(CERF is done through a different database, but OFA will report those results on their web site too.)


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## Melissa Miller

brandy said:


> I just dont see the need to pay someone to register the results on their web site.


Because MANY puppy buyers have been duped by other breeders who said they did Health Test.. and to trust them.. and used your very own words. Turns out they didn't and the owner was left with a puppy they loved but who was not healthy.

I would say the price of a Havanese puppy is high enough that you should do this to earn yourself respect within the breed along with your puppy buyers peace of mind. If that is not important to you, so be it.


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## Leeann

ama0722 said:


> A lot of people disagree with you Tom. It is said they are useful for speed and maneuvering- I watched a video showing aussies that were making turns but I can't find it. I will post it if I do.
> 
> Here is one vet's report on agility and arthritis with no dewclaws.
> http://www.sadonalabradors.com/dewclawsinjury.pdf


Thank you Amanda for this article, I am going to try and remember to ask my trainer her thoughts tomorrow. Both Riley & Monte have theirs and it looks like it may be something I will need to keep in mind for #3.


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## ama0722

Leeann- there is a lot more info out there. I sat in on something at my old club about structure dealing with performance and one of the people was from OSU. They had videos where they had computerized dogs and they showed the differences of movement and it was really neat cause it went slow and you could see it with the computerization of real dogs moving. At the time, I didn't not remove my dogs dew claws because of that, but I had to check when I got home- I didn't even know! They were actually being professionally groomed so I checked and both had it. Their demonstration videos were of aussies so maybe it makes a difference in size and running technique, etc. But a lot of agility people think you shouldn't remove them so I just listen to those who give the advice. 

Amanda


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## Beamer

I would like to give a pet owners perspective on this topic of breeding/testing..

Since being on this Forum for the last 20 months, it has been stamped in my brain what to look for when trying to aquire a new puppy! Its very common for newbies to post a message asking for advice on a breeder they are looking into. Within minutes members are replying with all the red flags they are finding or posting good news that all looks good! Obviously I'm no expert, but I'm able to look for key points that raise red flags. (are the parents champs? Are they health tested AND posted on the right websites?)

Brandy, I know nothing of your kennel but the text and pictures on your website. If the potential puppy buyers want to see health testing results and want to see they they have earned their championships, then they might steer clear. Ofcourse there are others (probably the majority) that would never even think to look for this stuff... I never knew all these things were important either, but learned from this site.

I know everyone on here always gets all crazy when breeders post puppy pictures, but I also bet all the people who are going gaga over the pics are also checking the health records of the parents amd seeing if they have their championships!

I'm sure all the breeders on here just want whats best for the breed, like yourself! Some just go further and show their dogs and have health testing available for everyone to see.

Ryan


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## brandy

Melissa Miller said:


> Actually Brandy.. I think its just because you are posting a lot and offering advice as a breeder. So people not familiar with you, check out your website to see what experience you have or what you are producing. When they see no health testing a red flag goes up, as it should. SURELY UNDERSTANDABLE BUT IVE BEEN POSTING FOR A WHILE NOW
> 
> Since we all preach to make sure all breeders have health testing done that can be verified by OFA.. and your not doing that, then you will get asked questions. And avoiding it by telling people you will discuss it privately and you screen your dogs etc.. all raise questions. IM CERTAINLY NOT AVIODING IT. JUST DONT APPRICIATE THE MANOR IN WICH I HAVE BEEN CONTACTED PUBLICLY AND PRIVATELY BY A FEW BREEDERS TODAY IM SURE IT WOULDNT SIT RIGHT WITH ANYONE ELSE EITHER. OUR DISCUSSION DOESNT HAVE TO BE PRIVATE BUT EVERY TIME I POST IN A THREAD IT GETS HYJACKED BY A BREEDER MAKING IT ABOUT ME. I THOUGHT IT WAS ESPECIALLY INNAPROPIATE IN THE CONGRATULATORY THREAD FOR PAULA.
> 
> Since you speak of litters and you have your website available in every post, knowing puppy buyers could go there, I dont think its too much to ask to post your health testing publicly. Its not the first time this has come up. I HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE AND IVE BEEN POSTING ON HERE FOR A WHILE NOW AND MY WEB SITE HAS ALWAYS BEEN ON MY SIGNAUTRE FOR THAT REASON
> 
> IF ANY Breeder was posting here who did not publicize their health testing, they would be questioned. Dont take it personal.


 TRUE BUT AGAIN YOUR NOT IN MY SHOES AND YOU HAVNT RECEIVED THE EMAILS AND COMMENTS I HAVE. SOME BREEDERS TEND TO HAVE THE SHOOT FIRST AND ASK QUESTIONS LATER RESPONSE AND IT CERTAINLY PUTS A BITTER TASTE IN YOUR MOUTH FOR THE NEXT BREEDER THAT WANT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT YOU. I DO A LOT OF EDUCATING ON THIS BREED AS WELL AND NEVER WOULD I APPROACH SOMEONE TO PUT THEM ON THE DEFENSE ESPECIALLY IF I WANTED TO HOPEFULLY TEACH THEM SOMETHING.


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## brandy

Melissa Miller said:


> Because MANY puppy buyers have been duped by other breeders who said they did Health Test.. and to trust them.. and used your very own words. Turns out they didn't and the owner was left with a puppy they loved but who was not healthy.
> 
> I would say the price of a Havanese puppy is high enough that you should do this to earn yourself respect within the breed along with your puppy buyers peace of mind. If that is not important to you, so be it.


This is true some breeders do say this and it turns out their dogs have never even seen a vet. I even warn my buyers about this. This is why references are sooooo important.


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## DanielBMe

Bogart's were removed and Brando only grew one very tiny one so I left it.


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## brandy

Beamer said:


> I would like to give a pet owners perspective on this topic of breeding/testing..
> 
> Since being on this Forum for the last 20 months, it has been stamped in my brain what to look for when trying to aquire a new puppy! Its very common for newbies to post a message asking for advice on a breeder they are looking into. Within minutes members are replying with all the red flags they are finding or posting good news that all looks good! Obviously I'm no expert, but I'm able to look for key points that raise red flags. (are the parents champs? Are they health tested AND posted on the right websites?)
> 
> Brandy, I know nothing of your kennel but the text and pictures on your website. If the potential puppy buyers want to see health testing results and want to see they they have earned their championships, then they might steer clear. Ofcourse there are others (probably the majority) that would never even think to look for this stuff... I never knew all these things were important either, but learned from this site.
> 
> I know everyone on here always gets all crazy when breeders post puppy pictures, but I also bet all the people who are going gaga over the pics are also checking the health records of the parents amd seeing if they have their championships!
> 
> I'm sure all the breeders on here just want whats best for the breed, like yourself! Some just go further and show their dogs and have health testing available for everyone to see.
> 
> Ryan


Ryan, I started getting into showing and opted out for many reasons. One is the politics. Second is a Championed dog doesnt mean it's a healthy breedable quality dog. Do you know how many dogs are championed only later to get neutered because they have come up health conditions? A lot. A championship alone does not by any means mean that the dog is of breeding quality or should be bred. Ive always wondered why dogs dont have to be adults or pass health testing before they can earn points towards their Championships. Maybe someone can asnwer that for me? Third is in my experience most of the breeders who breed Havanese are not happy go lucky like the dogs they breed. Fourth, I have been back and forth on my decision to show but the cons out weight the pros in mental anguish and time. One breeder on here has always been very nice and helpful and if I ever did make it to a show she offered to help me out.

health testing, screening....whatever you want to call it I agree is very important. I care about my dogs and the offspring they produce and would never breed an unhealthy dog, ever!


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## JASHavanese

brandy said:


> TRUE BUT AGAIN YOUR NOT IN MY SHOES AND YOU HAVNT RECEIVED THE EMAILS AND COMMENTS I HAVE. SOME BREEDERS TEND TO HAVE THE SHOOT FIRST AND ASK QUESTIONS LATER RESPONSE AND IT CERTAINLY PUTS A BITTER TASTE IN YOUR MOUTH FOR THE NEXT BREEDER THAT WANT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT YOU. I DO A LOT OF EDUCATING ON THIS BREED AS WELL AND NEVER WOULD I APPROACH SOMEONE TO PUT THEM ON THE DEFENSE ESPECIALLY IF I WANTED TO HOPEFULLY TEACH THEM SOMETHING.


If there's ever a day that you'd like to learn more about health testing and why it's important that the results are sent into the OFA database, I'll be happy to help you and I'm sure others here will as well. I don't know who has written to you and don't care but do hope they have offered you help.
Brandy, I'll leave you with your own words from your website and say I agree with them.
*"Lastly, if the breeder is offended by any of your questions or requests then don't do business with them, they may be hiding something or at the very least is this the kind of person you want to have as your breeder?"*


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## Havtahava

But you don't show dogs to prove their health. You show to have a judge evaluate their conformation to the breed standard. It is up to the individual to make sure they do the health testing - and then submit the results to verify what you say they are.

Showing is expensive so it is a risk people take when they show a puppy. I've shown very healthy dogs that have gotten their championships, but I've decided not to keep them for breeding for one reason or another - conformation-wise. I think it is very, very important to keep the breed sound, fitting the standard of how they should look (even if several judges thought they were great as puppies) and healthy, by making the health testing available, and then still evaluating each puppy individually to see if I think it is sound, balanced and fitting of the standard. Out of all my litters, I've only had one litter that had more than one puppy in it that I would even consider keeping. Health, temperament and conformation go hand in hand.

Brandy, you know I'm willing to work with you. Don't be disheartened. I think everyone asking has great intentions and is only thinking of the dogs. Besides, like Melissa said, there are many, many complaints out there about breeders selling dogs that didn't have any health testing, even when the breeder says it was done. That's why I encourage people to put their results on the OFA database. There is no disputing the results there and it keeps your reputation above par.


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## tikaboo

:frusty:Wow, I dont think I have ever witnessed such a cruel public flogging as the one Brandy has received. I am a member of this forum and am offended that you felt the need to hijack this thread with something that should of been dealt with privately. One of the reasons I've enjoyed this forum so much was because I felt everyone has been so loving friendly,and like family. I could be wrong but I thought this was a Havanese forum and not a elite breeders only forum. I also don't remember that there were any "agreeing to the terms of this forum" that stated that only the views of those breeders having there dogs test recorded though any certain public organization can qualify to post or that only websites that list test result can be publicly displayed under penalty of public flogging. If you have rules they should be stated and made clear from the beginning, otherwise deal with this sort of thing privately or start a new thread soI dont have to read through your bickering.
:frusty:


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## luv3havs

Wow, Tikaboo, you said it all!
I disliked the attacks too.


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## Melissa Miller

tikaboo said:


> I could be wrong but I thought this was a Havanese forum and not a elite breeders only forum. I also don't remember that there were any "agreeing to the terms of this forum" that stated that only the views of those breeders having there dogs test recorded though any certain public organization can qualify to post or that only websites that list test result can be publicly displayed under penalty of public flogging. If you have rules they should be stated and made clear from the beginning, otherwise deal with this sort of thing privately or start a new thread soI dont have to read through your bickering.
> :frusty:


Sometimes this is just how threads evolve. When she offers her advice as a breeder.. she is going to be questioned. Its because of all the people who have been through such bad experiences. We read about them ALL the time here.. breeders who do not do the right thing. I AM NOT SAYING BRANDY IS THAT WAY.

Ryan is not a breeder and neither am I. Im sorry you see it as an attack, but its NOT the first time this has come up. We teach people here to make sure their breeder does ALL the health testing as recommended by the HCA. It has nothing to do with being elitist, its for the best interest of the breed and the puppy buyer. Its SO EASY TO DO!

There are no rules on the forum except you can not advertise puppies.. I made it that way on purpose because even the bad threads, people learn from. My entire goal with starting the forum was to educate people on what to look for and learn more about the Havanese because there was no real information out there, you just had to trust the breeder you talked to. I think its accomplished that and ten times more. What Ryan posted made me SO HAPPY because that was the entire point of this entire website!!!

Dawna and I have been here from Day One, and I could care less if anyone shows or not, but I will never stop advocating health testing and public results.. along with what to ask a breeder you are buying a puppy from, because thats what this entire website was about!!!!! Education!!!

Exchanging it all privately doesnt promote the discussion that teaches everyone. Even things that have not gone my way, I learn from them! Its a discussion board after all. Everyone has offered to help, here and in the past, I think thats wonderful.

Again, when you give advice as a breeder you have to answer questions. Im happy the non breeders know what to ask. Im so happy!


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## Havtahava

tikaboo said:


> :frusty:Wow, I dont think I have ever witnessed such a cruel public flogging as the one Brandy has received. I am a member of this forum and am offended that you felt the need to hijack this thread with something that should of been dealt with privately. One of the reasons I've enjoyed this forum so much was because I felt everyone has been so loving friendly,and like family. I could be wrong but I thought this was a Havanese forum and not a elite breeders only forum. I also don't remember that there were any "agreeing to the terms of this forum" that stated that only the views of those breeders having there dogs test recorded though any certain public organization can qualify to post or that only websites that list test result can be publicly displayed under penalty of public flogging. If you have rules they should be stated and made clear from the beginning, otherwise deal with this sort of thing privately or start a new thread soI dont have to read through your bickering.
> :frusty:


Well, this is the *Ask a Breeder *forum and I am not quite sure what you are considering a "flogging", but any breeder should be willing to stand up to a few simple questions.

Brandy and I have met in person, talked online many times, and exchanged phone numbers. She has even trusted me enough to introduce me to her children and came to support me at a puppy match. I am gladly willing to support her in her endeavors to better the breed, if that is her goal. A few questions does not constitute a flogging. In fact, challenging a breeder only makes their position more obvious... Brandy has been clear enough about that on her web site.

Granted, every breeder shouldn't succumb to the pressures of others, but if it is proving to better the breed, and not just produce puppies for the sake of income, then it is all good!


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## brandy

Thank you to the last two posts. What a breath of fresh air. As much as I have tried to tell them to not hyjack the thread and make it about me, they continue. It happened in the "pass out the cigar thread as well. Im pretty worn of this myself and am done trying to defend myself on every issue of my breeding practices to my dew-clawing and statements being turned around.
You all say you only care about "Your Breed" but it's my breed too and everyone elses on this forum and every other Havanese owner out there. It is not yours alone! 
Just because I breed Havanese doesnt mean Im not a person with feelings and deserve common curteosy and respect as a human being. You keep saying not to take it personal are you crazy?! 
You all are only seeing half of the nonsence I have been dealing with alllll day. I just got done replying to another breeder on this forum asking me how Im different from a backyard breeder or puppymiller. What an insult! 
Then you have to odasity to use a quote from my web site about answering questions about a breeder....you all are giving me an inquisition and loaded with insinuations. Do you know how many people I spend countless hours on the phone with and over emails and they tell me how happy they are to find a breeder that is down to earth and easy to talk to and not snobby or rude or not return phone calls. Dont compare yourselves to an innocent party or even an inquistive breeder who just wants to learn about me and share their knowledge. I have had a few that were like that such as Kimberly but for the most part you've all been all nasty!


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## Melissa Miller

I guess I dont understand why you are making it a big deal and why you dont share what health testing you have done and what the results were? 

I SAID dont take it personal because we would ask this of ANYONE who is breeding.. 

THIS forum you are on encourages health testing.. and your defensiveness is why we keep asking! You keep talking in circles and saying you dont feel the need to explain yourself or report to an agency. Thats what BYB's say!!! I don't think you are one, but I also don't agree with you on health testing and reporting, especially with the nice price of a Havanese. 

I AM IN THIS for the better of the breed and you are right its your breed too, and the pet owners etc.. but its ALSO the backyard breeders breed because they MAKE IT! We have to educate people from being sucked into that. And you get to advertise your site on this forum everytime you post, so I have NO problems with breeders selling puppies having to answer tough questions! These dogs are like our family! If you are doing things right, then just post it! Dont hide it!

I asked Paula if she wanted me to move these posts to a new thread, which I will be happy to do.


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## JASHavanese

tikaboo said:


> :frusty: I could be wrong but I thought this was a Havanese forum and not a elite breeders only forum. :frusty:


There is nothing elite about wanting people to get healthy puppies. I hope you also saw the offers of help extended to her and I have no doubt they are all sincere. 
I admit my nerves are raw with the hurricane headed for us and I had minor surgery yesterday so I may not be as well spoken as normal, but the concern for our breed is there and the offer of help is genuine.


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## brandy

Melissa Miller said:


> I guess I dont understand why you are making it a big deal and why you dont share what health testing you have done and what the results were?
> 
> I SAID dont take it personal because we would ask this of ANYONE who is breeding..
> 
> THIS forum you are on encourages health testing.. and your defensiveness is why we keep asking! You keep talking in circles and saying you dont feel the need to explain yourself or report to an agency. Thats what BYB's say!!! I don't think you are one, but I also don't agree with you on health testing and reporting, especially with the nice price of a Havanese.
> 
> I AM IN THIS for the better of the breed and you are right its your breed too, and the pet owners etc.. but its ALSO the backyard breeders breed because they MAKE IT! We have to educate people from being sucked into that. And you get to advertise your site on this forum everytime you post, so I have NO problems with breeders selling puppies having to answer tough questions! These dogs are like our family! If you are doing things right, then just post it! Dont hide it!
> 
> I asked Paula if she wanted me to move these posts to a new thread, which I will be happy to do.


HERE WE GO AGAIN! I HAVE BEEN ANSWERING THAT QUESTION ALLLLLL DAY! HONESTLY I HAVE ANSWERED IT SO MANY TIMES TO SO MANY DIFFERENT PEOPLE I CANT REMEMBER TO WHOM OR WHERE.

DONT MISQUOTE ME MELISSA. I NEVER SAID I DONT HAVE TO ANSWER TO ANYONE AND IM CERTAINLY NOT HIDING.

YOU CAN KEEP GOING ROUND AND ROUND ALL YOU LIKE AND THIINKING YOUR ALL NOT BEING RUDE AND THAT YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO TREAT A PERSON THIS WAY BUT YOU ARE AND YOU DONT! YOU SAID YOU DONT CARE WHO STAYS OR GOES ON THIS FORUM. WELL I WOULDNT EXPECT ANY LESS.
PS. YOU METIONED FREE ADVERTISING WHEN I POST. THAT'S NOT WHY I PUT MY INFO UP! AGAIN, I PUT IT UP BECAUSE IM NOT HIDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## brandy

JASHavanese said:


> There is nothing elite about wanting people to get healthy puppies. I hope you also saw the offers of help extended to her and I have no doubt they are all sincere.
> I admit my nerves are raw with the hurricane headed for us and I had minor surgery yesterday so I may not be as well spoken as normal, but the concern for our breed is there and the offer of help is genuine.


Are you kidding me?!!!!! You only offered to talk with me about why registering with OFA is important AFTER you along with a few other breeders have been aweful to me all day in private emails and in public!


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## brandy

The only breeder who has been kind and helpful has been Kimberly. Dont kid yourself now.


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## Melissa Miller

brandy said:


> HERE WE GO AGAIN! I HAVE BEEN ANSWERING THAT QUESTION ALLLLLL DAY! HONESTLY I HAVE ANSWERED IT SO MANY TIMES TO SO MANY DIFFERENT PEOPLE I CANT REMEMBER TO WHOM OR WHERE.
> 
> DONT MISQUOTE ME MELISSA. I NEVER SAID I DONT HAVE TO ANSWER TO ANYONE AND IM CERTAINLY NOT HIDING.
> 
> YOU CAN KEEP GOING ROUND AND ROUND ALL YOU LIKE AND THIINKING YOUR ALL NOT BEING RUDE AND THAT YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO TREAT A PERSON THIS WAY BUT YOU ARE AND YOU DONT! YOU SAID YOU DONT CARE WHO STAYS OR GOES ON THIS FORUM. WELL I WOULDNT EXPECT ANY LESS.
> PS. YOU METIONED FREE ADVERTISING WHEN I POST. THAT'S NOT WHY I PUT MY INFO UP! AGAIN, I PUT IT UP BECAUSE IM NOT HIDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Well now you have joined the rude crowd, welcome!

I have NEVER said I dont care who stays and who goes EVER.. so dont quote me either!!!! I never even banned the HSD people. There have been people who have left and I have asked them to stay and reconsider.. I DO CARE AND DONT YOU EVER SAY OTHERWISE! I have spent a lot of time the last two years on this forum and I take great offense to that.

AND I dont care WHY you put your info there, everyone does it and its FREE ADVERTISING FOR EVERYONE. Thats the reality. I said you advertise your site as every breeder does who puts it in their signature. .. and its a benefit to you. Your welcome!

You say you have answered that question so many times today but I dont see it?? I dont see it in this thread??

ILL PAY YOUR OFA FEES ON ALL OF YOUR ADULT BREEDING DOGS. Someone presented this idea to me, and its genius! If its the money, then there you have it!

Your lovely all cap message really said nothing at ALL excpet that I dont care about my forum people. It said nothing about your health testing! This forum is ASK A BREEDER as Kimberly pointed out.


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## JASHavanese

brandy said:


> The only breeder who has been kind and helpful has been Kimberly. Dont kid yourself now.


Brandy, if you're in Texas I'll help you show your dogs, wish you well in the ring, help you soap your dogs if you don't know how, offer grooming advice if you need it, offer help of any kind, and explain why being able to track the health of dogs is so important. Um.....you have to wait until after the hurricane though. You say you got private email that bashed you. I can't control what others do but I can offer help again and again and again. If you feel that's bashing then I'm sorry.


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## brandy

Melissa. I was just getting ready to post an aplogy for the comment about not caring who leaves the forum. I realized I misunderstood your posting about not caring who shows or not. Stupid mistake obvisously, but my brain is absolutely pounding from all of this and I just took 1200 ibuprphen hoping it will get rid of this pain. 

Your offer is just crazy! It's never been about the money. Go back in the posts and you should find where I state my health screening. Im not against registering with OFA. I just dont see any need to and have the upmost confidence in my Vet. 

No, my so called advertising on your site has never helped me in anyway. I simply used this forum for information and funny stories, basically a get away. So much for that!


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## tikaboo

Yes, this thread is in the breeders section,"under ask a breeder", but it is/ or was a thread about "dew claws" and not her health testing. I have never read or heard anywhere about the hereditary nature of dew claw testing on this forum or in this thread. Try and justify it and sugar coat it, but you are continuing to gang up on her! If her puppy buyers are satisfied with the documentation from a certified vet about the extent of health testing documents that she provides them, and her posting them or not posting, them what business is it of yours? If you are buying a puppy do it privately!


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## Melissa Miller

The thread changed and can easily be split which I wont do without the ok from the originator.


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## Melissa Miller

brandy said:


> Melissa. I was just getting ready to post an aplogy for the comment about not caring who leaves the forum. I realized I misunderstood your posting about not caring who shows or not. Stupid mistake obvisously, but my brain is absolutely pounding from all of this and I just took 1200 ibuprphen hoping it will get rid of this pain.
> 
> Your offer is just crazy! It's never been about the money. Go back in the posts and you should find where I state my health screening. Im not against registering with OFA. I just dont see any need to and have the upmost confidence in my Vet.
> 
> No, my so called advertising on your site has never helped me in anyway. I simply used this forum for information and funny stories, basically a get away. So much for that!


Thank you for that.. because I had no clue where that came from. I will go back and read it tomorrow with a fresh brain. I understand you trust your vet.. and I have a feeling we are both after the same thing... and I wish you would see the intent of whats being said. I said I didnt care about showing because people have also said.. in the past.. you don't show your dogs. I don't think thats the end of the world and its a personal choice.

My point with the "so called advertising" whether it benefits you or not, is it is there linking to your site and your puppies and I dont think its bad wanting to know your health testing. And Im not putting just you there, that would go to everyone. I dont think a question has been asked of you today that would not be asked of anyone selling puppies.

Im going to bed.  I have had a long day. I wont say dont let this get to you, I have no clue what went on privately. Just keep an open mind and don't think everyone is out to get you. Believe it or not, people DO want to help.


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## tikaboo

Is this the Havanese gestapo forum, heil OFA! lol


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## tikaboo

JASHavanese said:


> There is nothing elite about wanting people to get healthy puppies. I hope you also saw the offers of help extended to her and I have no doubt they are all sincere.
> I admit my nerves are raw with the hurricane headed for us and I had minor surgery yesterday so I may not be as well spoken as normal, but the concern for our breed is there and the offer of help is genuine.


Then you should have waited to respond when your head is more clear. You have answered in a way that presupposes and leads others to presume you know for a fact that she does not have the best interest in the breed or her puppies in mind only because she does not list her results publicly. This is total bullying. She already said she does the testing......What, until you are satisfied she does what you want or leaves the forum you are going to slander her. It makes me sick!!!


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## tejanoHavs

*Education - for buyers, breeders and wannabe breeders*

Education is what this should be about and for everyone! This forum has a broad audience and if experienced fanciers did not question (politely I would hope) someone who says they screen for health problems yet has no evidence of such then they miss an opportunity to educate both that person as well as others who may be reading the thread.

I have been in a position with the parent club to actually receive the calls from buyers who only learned after the fact the value of documented health testing. It is a horrible feeling to educate those folks only after it is too late and a Hav they love dearly is facing serious health issues. I don't think anyone wants to promote that situation.

Health testing, and registering the results, is the ONLY way that we as breeders can hope to improve the outcome of our breedings. Time and again I've seen people say they health test when indeed they do not. And the value to the breed as a whole when registering your health tests is that other breeders can use that as part of the breeding decisions they make in the future. ALL lines have certain inherent health weaknesses behind them. For instance, I'm a "NUT" about hips as I see that as a weakness in the lines behind some of my dogs. I've never (yet!) produced a hip issue, but spend hours looking at vertical pedigrees behind any dogs I consider for breeding. If someone actually does the health testing, but doesn't register it, that leaves other breeders with less than complete info when we are trying to make the best decisions for the future health of our breed. We work together as a team guys.

It's clear that the health testing message reaches even those breeders who only pay lip service to it as often they like to include the health tests of ancestors in the pedigrees of their dogs. I have a feeling that often the only reason it is mentioned is that the buying public has been educated to look for a breeder who health tests....but they don't quite know how to do it. If it was important to a breeder when buying their pups to find health testing publicly available and verifiable on the parents, then why isn't it equally important to provide that to the buying public who purchases a puppy from them? Same thing with showing their dogs. If it was important to have AKC champions in the pedigree of the dogs they purchased originally, why is it not important enough to show their own dogs (or have them shown) to ensure that they do meet the breed standard?

As far as saying "my vet says....", there are many health tests that require a specialist's opinion. Go to www.vmdb.org and look to see if a dog has been CERFed by a vet optho for cataracts or other eye problems. A regular vet cannot determine this on exam. Eyes must be dilated and examined with special equipment. If you wait for a regular vet to discover cataracts, they are at an advanced stage and often the dog has already been bred. Same thing with orthopedic exams. I've watched the % of dysplastic hips climb steadily over my 8 years in the breed and what a shame to breed a Hav without knowing its hip status.

And to offer a non-championed dog at stud without documented health testing goes beyond being wreckless yourself....it can have a huge negative impact on the breed as a whole.

No one dictates that you must have this or that result from health testing in order to breed or offer a dog at /4///4g to have to at least have that testing done and made available through a 3rd party so it is verifiable.

I don't think


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## brandy

Ok. I just had a whole posting typed out and it kicked me off! Uggg!
I'll try again.

Im pasting a link to a website regarding OFA. This article explains some of my reasons (not all) for why I dont use OFA. I never wanted to get into this disscussion publicly becuase I didnt want back yard breeders using my reason for an excuse for their poor breeding practices.

I have worked with animals almost all my life and worked in the veterinary field for many years. I have had the opportunity to pick the brains and get opionions from lots of Vets and Breeders. Im not the type of person to do things just because everyone else is doing it. I learn as much as I can about something and form my own opionion. Im certainly not going to be bullied or cornered into doing somehting either. This article is one of the reasons I use a vet and vets office I trust and rely on his opionion AND MY DECISIONS about my dogs. That is my personal preference at this time and my right.

Im by no means a know it all and know I still have a lot to learn and may make mistakes along the way. dont we all? No one is perfect.

This is not the first time I have delt with rude comments or harrasment from ohter breeders. In fact some breeders who are on this forum, and are very big breeders, were slandering me on anohter. They have been watching me for a long time. Even Melissa made a comment about getting emails that I dont show. (wich I posted my view on that in another posting) I never even knew about forums until someone told me about it, and never posted one comment on it ever not even after I found out my name was being mentioned on it. It was another well respected, well known breeder that came to my defense and it wasnt until I brought it to the forum owners attention and threatened to sue for slander that the whole post was removed.

These breeders have always been members of HCA wich really surprised me because arnt you suppose to help educate and treat other breeders with respect as part of your bylaws? Your not going to eduate anyone by being rude to them. And dont kid yourselves you have been rude. Even when you try to be nice your posting includes contridictory comments and insinuations.

Being a member of a club and using OFA doesnt automatically make you a good breeder. Just as in the Veterinary field you cant just get into it because you love animals you also have to love people. It's the people that bring the animals to you and it's the people that buy your puppies. Otherwise you wouldnt have a job or a business.

Almost every buyer I talk to tells me how refreshing it is to talk to me. Go figure.

Thank you to all that have emailed me with your support and thank you to everyone who has posted in my defense and reading between the lines of what is really going on here. And thank you Kimberly for for always being courteous and kind. So many breeders can learn from you not only about breeding practices but more importantly about how to educate and treat people.

Everyone.... Feel free to post what ever you like. Im signing off. Here is the link. http://www.workingdogs.com/ofa_penn.htm


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## brandy

Just to add.... how odd I find it that in Paula's announcement of her first litter, she never mentions any health testing you all say should be metioned right off the bat and no one ever says anything to her even after you start attacking me for casually mentioning I had a litter about the same time and offering her advice. Maybe you knew what tests she had already, I dont know, but maybe you should have asked her to post it if it's so important to you all but instead not one metion is made to her what so ever. Odd..., or is it? 
You even fallowed me to other threads and posted rude comments to me and tried to turn things around in advice I was offering that had nothing to do with health testing. 
My husband thinks I should start my own forum where people can help each other and post freely without worry about being bashed or scutinized because they dont do everything everyone else does, the way they do it and if you post you better have done it our way or you'll get attacked. A post freely and respectfully type of forum and if you are going to offer your opionion or education, do it with respect kind of thing. And just have an all around educational, good time. 
There are so many other breeders out there that shy away from forums and HCA and showing becuase of this type of thing and it's sad really becuase they are good caring breeders like myself and much better good, caring breeders than some that are members of these clubs. 
Im really signing off now.


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## ama0722

Brandy,
So what do you do to prove health?

Oh and as to no one attacking Paula. Over a month ago she talked about how much work she put into this litter.
http://havaneseforum.com/showpost.php?p=167977&postcount=27


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## Gableshavs

Brandy,

All who know me on this list for the past two years saw the strand when I announced Marya's breeding and her CHIC number which is 44670. Many posts later many know me pretty well. First health testing is a priority. I waited to breed until I got the OFA hips, we had to do the test twice because my vet's office sent the first set of xrays to offa and they were lost. The vet did the xrays again for free and made sure they arrived. So I didn't get to breed in December as I planned and I waited until July. Also I waited until after my girl's second birthday, breeding a dog too young is an unacceptable and irresponsible practice in my opinion. OFA hips cannot be done before their 2nd birthday and preliminaries aren't good enough for me.

In selecting my male I went to the OFA site and read the background of parents, siblings and grandparents. I found the site to be a wonderful tool for me. I checked pedigrees on the havanese gallery, I wanted one that was in my girl's line, and I love Fievel and wanted to bring his line in as well (although Mari's dad has Fievel in his background. As far as health I tested BAER (hearing) CERF twice (for cataracts) Patellas, Leg Calve Perthes, Hips, Cardiac, Elbows and Thyroid. If she failed in any area I would NOT have bred her PERIOD. I worked and showed her to her championship. If she did not pass in the judges eyes, and she finished quickly, I would NOT have bred her. I am mentored by people passionate about this breed and health testing, and Brandy I now am one of those people. Your article is about Penn Hip vs OFA hips, that's *only hips *and my breeder/mentor says either test is great, but you have to get the testing done. The offa site is a good tool for many of us who care about testing, you can see test results in the aforementioned areas as well as that of the parents and grandparents and siblings. I would have rejected any stud dog who did not have tests done regularly, heck there are enough good, sound, well tested dogs out there who's owners do go through the trouble because they really CARE about bettering the breed.

I also volunteer with Havanese Rescue and am editor of the newsletter and do work with Therapy Dogs, with Blossom, my spayed pet (AKA "the queen").

I did this breeding to see if I would get that special, wonderful dog I can show in bred by. My breeder and I also wanted to see what type of dogs Mari would produce. The idea of selling puppies is not even in the picture because the amount of time and money involved (thousands of dollars) so far will never be repaid, this is my hobby and completely a labor of love.

I'm lucky my husband and I both love dog shows and dog show people. When we have a dog out (trying to get points) we're at every show every weekend having a ball, it gets expensive but it's fantastic fun. We belong to our all breed club and Tropical Havanese Club (Jody is Treasurer) as well as Havanese rescue (to which we also donate as much money as we can), I passionately follow and adhere closely to the ethical breeder standards of the Havanese Club of America where health testing is strongly advocated, although I am not a member, I deeply believe in their work.

I'm new to breeding and showing, only three years and I have learned so much. It's a responsibility to breed that I take very seriously.


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## Elaine

Brandy,
I am sorry you feel you can not post on the forum without being criticized. I am a breeder and also posted to this thread and you have implicated that I am among those that have posted privately to you. I have not and I am really sorry that you are against posting your information to OFA. If at some point one of your puppy buyers decided to show and breed and came to me for a stud, I would have to tell them no because even though they can prove their testing they have nothing on the parents to show how the background parantage is. I do feel people come on strong because of the pasion we all have for this wonderful breed. Some of us have had to help people who have come to us with dogs and puppies who are sick and dying. I have gone over a "disposable" 10 month old dog from a puppy mill who had very bad hip dysplasia. This person had gotten a good deal on the puppy so she just figured if something happened she would put it down and get another. I wanted to cry for the puppy. No one intends to breed an unhealthy dog and all the health testing in the world will not make sure that every dog a breeder produces is healthy, but without all the information we can get from our older breeding stock and those that we now produce our future will be bleak. I can understand why you don't care to post your information and that is your choice but what does that mean for your future generations and if you decide to go outside of your own dogs to add an improvement to your lines. I have spent the money and shown lots of dogs, which you are right is not cheap, just to have them mature into what is not acceptable to breed and have spayed/neutered them and put them in pet homes. It takes a lot of research and work and boy will I be glad when I get it right every time, probably not in my lifetime. I love my dogs and I hope that I will be giving the future breeders out there as much information on the health of everything I breed so that maybe they won't have to go through heartache with their puppies they breed. I am one that would love to live in a perfect world where we make great breeding choices everytime we breed but all we can do is hope the genes fall correctly. I have not ever attacked you privately or publicly and I think that you need to not say that everyone treats you badly that is a breeder. We all want to learn and yes the thread got carried away but health information is a passion to those who have had to help others who were not fortunate enough to find a healthy puppy. There are a lot of great breeders on this forum and I know how fragile feelings can be. If when this started you would have just answered their questions publicly you might not have had the private email. By the way I am in no way attacking you or your practices.


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## Gableshavs

I agree that even if you do everything right, including health test there are still acts of nature and someone with a health problem may still turn up, hopefully not during my very limited breeding career, but we have seen (and prayed for the families and dogs) members dogs on the forum with liver shunt, or bent legs, thyroid problems, cataracts, and the like. We console each other when the members grieve over the loss of a beloved pet due to a health problem. In rescue we just lost Ebbie to complications from Liver Shunt, it was terrible and we all cried. 

I could not forgive myself if one of my puppies was sold to a family who then falls deeply in love, only to have that dog's health problem turn up and become a critical illness; causing that family pain was always in the back of my mind as it is in the minds of the responsible breeders I know. That is why we health test so thoroughly. Now we have genetic markers and more are being discovered every year. Eventually we hope we can forever remove these serious health problems. I hope sooner than later.


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## JASHavanese

Gableshavs said:


> Eventually we hope we can forever remove these serious health problems. I hope sooner than later.


Oh I hope you're right Paula. It's so heartbreaking to get calls from people who have lost dogs at a young age. We cry with them, we call other breeders when we don't have anything available to try to help them find the right puppy that hopefully has a lot longer life with them, and we celebrate with them when we're able to find one. 
Maybe that's why we react so strongly to health testing. We hear so many bad stories where heartbreak could have been avoided. 
I remember a time prior to getting into Havanese when I didn't understand health testing and why it's done and recorded and I got my behind set on fire. Best thing that ever happened to me as far as the health of dogs goes. Then I dug as deep as I could into it and got mentors to help me which is why I offer to help others. I've been helped and feel that's how we pay forward.


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## casperkeep

I just took Ginger to the vet today and my vet trimmed her dew claws....I guess the groomer has not trimmed them for awhile. I will have to let her know.


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## Kathy

Brandy,
Instead of looking at all of us attacking you, is it possible maybe to look at all of trying to mentor you? I am the "other breeder" that Brandy was privately messageing yesterday. I don't believe that I was ever rude or nasty to you Brandy, but rather I was trying to understand what you mean by "screening" vs health testing when I asked you my questions. Like I said privately, all good breeders should be trying to IMPROVE the breed and one tool we have to help us accomplish that is doing health tests and have those tests certified by OFA. All of us have offered to help you, but I keep reading excuses of refusal. I am sure you have a wonderful vet you trust, that is awesome, however, he too is human and vets do make mistakes just like human doctors do. 

Like you, every puppy buyer that contacts me get's an earful. I am very picky where I place my puppies. I spend a lot of time every day educating puppy buyers. I am told often how helpful I have been to them. I am never rude nor disrespectful, as I feel it is part of what I should do, to pass on the information I have gained from my mentors and continue to gain from them. 

I wish you all the best in your breeding program and I hope that one day you will be more open to someone mentoring you. Like I said yesterday, we all can learn from one another.


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## JASHavanese

Kathy said:


> Like I said yesterday, we all can learn from one another.


Yup, yup, yup. Now when are you going to teach me how to get THREE group 1's in a row and a BIS? Hmmmmmmm? :bounce:


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## Leeann

When I got to class tonight I asked my trainer about dew claws, it was actually kind of funny because all I said was "can I ask you a question about dew claws" and I guess she thought I was thinking about removing Riley's and laid into me about doing it at his age and it should only be done in the first few day after being born (she use to breed Springers) Once I told her I was asking for agility she agreed that keeping them is best for balance when they manuever, better balance = tighter turns = faster time.

Oh and Kathy rude & disrespectul ound:that one cracked me up, I just had the pleasure of meeting her a couple of weeks ago and I have never meet a more warm, loving and caring person. I will agree with what was said about Kimberly, she is wonderful as well.


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## casperkeep

I secound that about Kim and Kathy. I hope we all can learn something, when we stop learning that is where we need to think about things. Life is all about learning in everything we do!!!


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## casperkeep

I hope that makes since to you all


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## RikiDaisyDixie

*from a havanese owner, not a breeder*

I'm not a breeder, just an owner. I am also a rescue volunteer. I have been mentored by one of the best, Sue Nelson...so I have the advantage of knowing a lot about our breed.

I do wish mine had their dew claws removed. Mine sometimes bite on them even if they are short for some reason.

Now about testing. There are lots of good reasons to post testing...but there is a new one that just occurred in the last year or so. There is a group of people who have dogs they used to consider havanese who feel for some of their own reasons that the havanese is no longer a healthy breed because "we" don't health test and breed unhealthy dogs. So for this reason alone, Havanese need to show their health testing to prove this insane insult as outrageous. By informing the public of the good health of our dogs, we assure them that HAVANESE are perfectly wonderful, healthy, and amazing dogs. This reassures potential owners that only healthy dogs produce offspring, and for the betterment of the breed as a whole.

Here is a big challenge for potential owners today. When you are researching the breed, all you have at first glance are the websites if you don't know someone else who has the dog or has a good recommendation. Most places tell you the warning signs...to make sure that dogs aren't coming from a backyard breeder. Folks can use pictures from anywhere, and websites can be very misleading. How does a person know these days unless the breeder posts results which can be checked. Not that the person is accusing anyone...but so that a potential owner can be assured that their new baby that they will love for many years will be healthy and get all the good things a new puppy needs such as not leaving the breeder before the dam has taught it puppy manners.

What I didn't realize when I first got my dogs is how much care and concern goes into proper breeding. How much it costs as well as the years it takes to breed a wonderful line of dogs as well as better the breed. The idea of showing dogs is to encourage health, beauty, and the betterment of the breed.

I think most folks on this forum would agree that health testing is a good thing, and that posting the results on a website just saves a lot of grief for all involved. For the good of the breed...we are all friends here. Our goal is healthy, sound temperament, and loving dogs.

I wish you knew some of the stories we get from rescue. It is heartbreaking...if only some of the parents had been tested, and perhaps not bred....ah well, that is a whole other conversation.


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## Judy A

Izzy's dew claws were removed, Doc's weren't. I wish they had been.......


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## Gableshavs

Marya's puppies had their dew claws removed last week on Friday, I can't believe a week has passed. All are doing well, nobody seemed to be in any pain, at least it didn't affect their eating, they nurse constantly, and they're getting cuter than cute. I'll post pictures in my other thread next week. I think their eyes should open on Monday.


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## Mizell26

Trying a link to a pic of Meg in a turn: http://www.starbornhavanese.com/images/DSCN5110.JPG notice how the inside rear leg is engaged and you can see that it's at full speed. Full size it and you will get a larger pic.[/QUOTE]

I just wanted to say that is a really cute picture.
Tammy


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## RikiDaisyDixie

*wow hav in action*

I love the photo. I am curious as to whether this dog has a dew claw or not, I don't remember from the discussion.

I just want to learn more.


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