# SERIOUS dog bite



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I know this has nothing to do with Havanese, but I also know that my friends here will understand how frightening this was, even though I didn't learn about it until after the fact.

My son is an arborist, and tree guys don't get much steady work in the winter. So a friend of his has been trying to talk him into joining him in ME for the winter as a ski instructor. He went up to visit his friend's new place last weekend, and meet his friend's room mate. 

Robbie took his dog, a Tree Walker **** Hound, and VERY sweet and friendly, along with him. When he got there, Chipper was still in the truck, all windows closed. Robbie got out of the truck and was standing talking to his friend and the other room mate, when the room mate's loose, large, GSD-type black dog charged out of the woods and fastened itself onto the back of Robbie's thigh. The other two guys had to KICK the dog off. Robbie not only has a full set of full-depth punctures, but the dog bit and held so hard that they whole area is badly bruised as well. This was THROUGH heavy denim jeans.

Fortunately,when I looked at it for him the other day, it does NOT look infected, but I told him that he HAS to make sure the dog was UTD on Rabies vaccine. Needless to say, the whole incident put a huge damper on the weekend. Not only was Robbie hobbling around on a very sore leg, but Chipper AND the other dog had to be kept tied or otherwise safely separated all weekend, for fear that the dog would tear Chipper limb from limb.

The owner apologized, but that was it. He's enough of an idiot that he thinks there would still (somehow) be a way for them to "work it out" and have Robbie and Chipper live there with them. Right! 

This was such a strange thing... a seemingly unprovoked attack. Robbie couldn't have "challenged" the dog with eye contact or anything, because he didn't even know the dog was there. The dog attacked from behind, and it WASN'T a "herding" type nip... Dogs who do that let go and back off right away. I suppose it COULD have had something to do with Chipper's presence, but Chipper hadn't even been out of the car, and doesn't bark, or typically "engage" other dogs... he even backs away from Pixel! 

I guess we'll never know exactly what was going on in that dog's head, but needless to say, Robbie WON'T be living up there this winter! Considering how close the dog's teeth were to the tendons in the back of the leg, I think we were very lucky that this wasn't a MUCH worse injury! I'd like to think that there is a "home for every dog", but I've got to say, there are too many NICE dogs without homes. This one ought to be shot.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

sorry your son went through this Karen. The owner has to be instructed to seek help for this dog or this can happen again. This sort of thing is EXTREMELY dangerous and the dog should not have access to strangers until this is remedied if that is even possible. ?? Dogs like this cannot always be rehabilitated and are never truly safe after.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

*Ian Dunbar 's Bite Scale*

Level 1. Obnoxious or aggressive behavior but no skin-contact by teeth. Level 2. Skin-contact by teeth but no skin-puncture. However, may be skin nicks (less than one tenth of an inch deep) and slight
bleeding caused by forward or lateral movement of teeth against skin, but no vertical punctures.
Level 3. One to four punctures from a single bite with no puncture deeper than half the length of the dog's canine teeth. Maybe lacerations in a single direction, caused by victim pulling hand away, owner pulling dog away, or gravity (little dog jumps, bites and drops to floor).
Level 4. One to four punctures from a single bite with at least one puncture deeper than half the length of the dog's canine teeth. May also have deep bruising around the wound (dog held on for N seconds and bore down) or lacerations in both directions (dog held on and shook its head from side to side).
Level 5. Multiple-bite incident with at least two Level 4 bites or multiple-attack incident with at least one Level 4 bite in each. Level 6. Victim dead. The above list concerns unpleasant behavior and so, to add perspective:
Levels 1 and 2 comprise well over 99% of dog incidents. The dog is certainly not dangerous and more likely to be fearful, rambunctious, or out of control. Wonderful prognosis. Quickly resolve the problem with basic training (control) - especiallyoodles of Classical Conditioning,numerous repetitive Retreat n' Treat, Come/Sit/Food Reward and Back- up/Approach/Food Reward sequences, progressive desensitization handling exercises, plus numerous bite-inhibition exercises and games. Hand feed only until resolved; do NOT waste potential food rewards by feeding from a bowl.
Level 3: Prognosis is fair to good, provided that you have owner compliance. However, treatment is both time-consuming and not without danger. Rigorous bite-inhibition exercises are essential.
Levels 4: The dog has insufficient bite inhibition and is very dangerous. Prognosis is poor because of the difficulty and danger of trying to teach bite inhibition to an adult hard-biting dog and because absolute owner-compliance is rare. Only work with the dog in exceptional circumstances, e.g., the owner is a dog professional and has sworn 100% compliance. Make sure the owner signs a form in triplicate stating that they understand and take full responsibility that: 1. The dog is a Level 4 biter and is likely to cause an equivalent amount of damage WHEN it bites again (which it most probably will) and should therefore, be confined to the home at all times and only allowed contact with adult owners. 2. Whenever, children or guests visit the house, the dog should be confined to a single locked- room or roofed, chain-link run with the only keys kept on a chain around the neck of each adult owner (to prevent children or guests entering the dog's confinement area.) 3. The dog is muzzled before leaving the house and only leaves the house for visits to a veterinary clinic. 4. The incidents have all been reported to the relevant authorities - animal control or police. Give the owners one copy, keep one copy for your files and give one copy to the dog's veterinarian.
Level 5 and 6: The dog is extremely dangerous and mutilates. The dog is simply not safe around people. I recommend euthanasia because the quality of life is so poor for dogs that have to live out their lives in solitary confinement.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

How scary for your son...I know I mentioned before that years ago a friends one year old Chow attacked another friend. Everyone thought I was silly because I was afraid of the dog when I visited her. I asked her to take it outside. I had no experience with dogs, but it sat next to me and just stared. I still remember being frightened by it. Another friend went to visit and they were sitting at the same table having tea. The dog attacked. The visiting friend was pinned up against the wall with the dog attacking her. They both ran out of the house to go to the hospital. The owner forgot her keys and had to go back in and the dog attacked her. When I went to ER the visiting friends shin was a huge open wound. They both had bites everywhere. It was terrible. Animal Control picked up the dog was it was put down. Your son is very fortunate his friends were there. I am still wary of any large dog.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Karen, I hope Robbie is on the mend. I would have gone immediately to the local e.r. to have the wounds checked.

Ricky has never shown anything close to menacing behavior, to man or beast including cats. Consequently, sometimes I am a little lax about supervising him around strangers, because I trust him so much. This is a mistake on my part. A dog's personality and propensities can change as they age up. Thank you for sharing, it reminds to be more alert when strangers are around.

Ricky's Popi


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

How frightening. It would be interesting to know what was going on in that dog's head! I was bitten only once by what I think was an Australian Cattle Dog. It was our neighbor's dog and all I was doing was walking down the road. It was totally unprovoked. Since then I've always been a little afraid of unknown dogs. I'm like Ricky's Popi and am pretty lax with Willow. I'll have to be more aware when she see's strangers. It sounds like Robbie was very lucky and I sure hope that dog's owner takes it seriously.


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## Ollie"s Mom (May 23, 2014)

Terrifying Karen. Definitely agree the dog should be put down. I am so glad Robbie is going to be alright and I kept thinking what if Robbie had been visiting with a child and the child was standing there with him. I shudder to think. That dog is a ticking time bomb. I don't understand the mentality of a person that would keep a dog like that. Who wants a dog that is deadly as a family pet? So sorry this happened.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> sorry your son went through this Karen. The owner has to be instructed to seek help for this dog or this can happen again. This sort of thing is EXTREMELY dangerous and the dog should not have access to strangers until this is remedied if that is even possible. ?? Dogs like this cannot always be rehabilitated and are never truly safe after.


I know, and I doubt this guy will ever get the help the dog needs even IF it was possible to rehab it. The dog will most likely bite someone else, possibly doing much worse damage and end up being euthanized at that point. I tried to get Robbie to report the bite, but you know young men. More testosterone than good sense at times. He doesn't want to cause "trouble" between his friend and this other guy.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> Level 4. One to four punctures from a single bite with at least one puncture deeper than half the length of the dog's canine teeth. May also have deep bruising around the wound (dog held on for N seconds and bore down) or lacerations in both directions (dog held on and shook its head from side to side).
> 
> ...........
> 
> Levels 4: The dog has insufficient bite inhibition and is very dangerous. Prognosis is poor because of the difficulty and danger of trying to teach bite inhibition to an adult hard-biting dog and because absolute owner-compliance is rare. Only work with the dog in exceptional circumstances, e.g., the owner is a dog professional and has sworn 100% compliance. Make sure the owner signs a form in triplicate stating that they understand and take full responsibility that: 1. The dog is a Level 4 biter and is likely to cause an equivalent amount of damage WHEN it bites again (which it most probably will) and should therefore, be confined to the home at all times and only allowed contact with adult owners. 2. Whenever, children or guests visit the house, the dog should be confined to a single locked- room or roofed, chain-link run with the only keys kept on a chain around the neck of each adult owner (to prevent children or guests entering the dog's confinement area.) 3. The dog is muzzled before leaving the house and only leaves the house for visits to a veterinary clinic. 4. The incidents have all been reported to the relevant authorities - animal control or police. Give the owners one copy, keep one copy for your files and give one copy to the dog's veterinarian.


Yeah, based on this scale, the dog is a definite level 4... and there were more than 4 tooth marks. ...And there is no way this owner will do what is necessary to keep people safe from this dog, let alone put in the training necessary to rehab it successfully.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Karen, I hope Robbie is on the mend. I would have gone immediately to the local e.r. to have the wounds checked.
> 
> Ricky has never shown anything close to menacing behavior, to man or beast including cats. Consequently, sometimes I am a little lax about supervising him around strangers, because I trust him so much. This is a mistake on my part. A dog's personality and propensities can change as they age up. Thank you for sharing, it reminds to be more alert when strangers are around.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


Well, _I_ would have gone to the ER too... or sent him, if I'd been around when it happened. By the time I saw it/heard about it, the wounds were 5 days old and healing nicely. You know young men... You were one at one point in time! 

I don't "worry" about my dogs biting people either. I DO make sure that little kids (or adults, but kids are more likely to have faces down at small dog level) don't take liberties with them, because I think it's unfair to the dogs, whether they will retaliate or not.

Honestly, though, our dogs don't even HAVE the jaw strength (or dentition) to do the damage this dog did.


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## Askavi (Nov 5, 2015)

Young men are always so tough! I'm glad your son is alright, however, not only should the dog be reported, but your son has a legal case against the owner. Of course he doesn't want to stir up trouble, and that's understandable. However, by not taking any action, the owner doesn't get the message that their dog is dangerous. As Ollie's Mom said, what if this were a child? Also, what if your son had let his dog out of the truck? I think I would find myself unable to keep my mouth shut with my own son in the same situation. That dog is really going to hurt someone (your son's injury is bad enough) and the owner needs a serious reality check and lesson about dog ownership.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> You know young men... You were one at one point in time!


:grin2: According to MDW of 50 years I have never grown out of adolescence! She says Ricky and I make a good pair! :wink2:

Ricky's Popi


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

Glad your son is on the mend and will be ok. Will he be able to live with himself if he doesn't report this and hears about this dog attacking someone else down the road? Just something for him to think about.


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## Laurmann2000 (Sep 12, 2015)

Oh how scary and even scarier that this dog will most likely attack someone else. Sorry your son went through this but so glad he's healing well and it wasn't a more serious bite.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

krandall said:


> I know, and I doubt this guy will ever get the help the dog needs even IF it was possible to rehab it. The dog will most likely bite someone else, possibly doing much worse damage and end up being euthanized at that point. I tried to get Robbie to report the bite, but you know young men. More testosterone than good sense at times. He doesn't want to cause "trouble" between his friend and this other guy.


I understand how your son must feel. I know I would have difficulty reporting a friends dog. Hopefully in the future it will not bite a child.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Askavi said:


> Young men are always so tough! I'm glad your son is alright, however, not only should the dog be reported, but your son has a legal case against the owner. Of course he doesn't want to stir up trouble, and that's understandable. However, by not taking any action, the owner doesn't get the message that their dog is dangerous. As Ollie's Mom said, what if this were a child? Also, what if your son had let his dog out of the truck? I think I would find myself unable to keep my mouth shut with my own son in the same situation. That dog is really going to hurt someone (your son's injury is bad enough) and the owner needs a serious reality check and lesson about dog ownership.


I know, and I agree. But this was out of state, and I don't even know the name of the person whose dog it was. There's really nothing I can do. My son is 25, and has to make his own decisions at this point. :|


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> :grin2: According to MDW of 50 years I have never grown out of adolescence! She says Ricky and I make a good pair! :wink2:
> 
> Ricky's Popi


_I_didn't want to say that!  My husband has never REALLY grown up either.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Molly120213 said:


> Glad your son is on the mend and will be ok. Will he be able to live with himself if he doesn't report this and hears about this dog attacking someone else down the road? Just something for him to think about.


He won't hear, though. This is in another state, and someone he only met that day. They have no relationship. If it were up to me, it would have been reported that day. But young men? They're too tough.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Heather Glen said:


> I understand how your son must feel. I know I would have difficulty reporting a friends dog. Hopefully in the future it will not bite a child.


Yeah, this wan't a friend, it was the new room mate of a friend. Even his FRIEND doesn't know this guy well. I hope Robbie's friend will re-think living there, though, I'm not at all sure I'd want to live in a house with that dog. What happens the first time he comes home and the dog's owner isn't there?


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

When your young you don't always recognize how dangerous something might be. The dog will bite again.


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## Askavi (Nov 5, 2015)

krandall said:


> I know, and I agree. But this was out of state, and I don't even know the name of the person whose dog it was. There's really nothing I can do. My son is 25, and has to make his own decisions at this point. :|


It sucks when they get so grown you can't make them do what you want! :laugh2:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Heather Glen said:


> When your young you don't always recognize how dangerous something might be. The dog will bite again.


I agree with both statements. I also know you can't force 25 year old sons into ANYTHING.


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## Ollie"s Mom (May 23, 2014)

It makes me wonder about some of the news stories we hear about people being seriously injured or children that have been killed by a viscous dog attack. How many of those dogs and owners were given a free ride in the past from someone who didn't want to make waves about their bite. My guess is this isn't the first time this dog has been aggressive and sadly it won't be the last. We all love animals and hate the thought of any animal being put down, but sometimes it is necessary.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Ollie"s Mom said:


> How many of those dogs and owners were given a free ride in the past from someone who didn't want to make waves about their bite.


Three months ago, my daughter and her 70 pound Lab were injured by the neighbors 100 pound Rottweiler. The Rot had gotten loose from the yard and the neighbors teenage kids were trying to get it back in the yard, since the parents were away. My daughter, trying to be a good Samaritan, tried to help and got attacked as well as her dog. Her dog had the go to the emergency Vet for shaving and stitches on several bites. The EMT's came to treat my daughter and she refused transport to the hospital. I urged her to file a complaint with animal control (which would probably have resulted in the dog being put down) and submit all bills to the neighbor. She did neither. She said she didn't want to cause problems with the neighbors who were very apologetic and offered to pay all costs. It is a complicated situation. It is not what I would have done, but I decided to butt out. It is easy to criticize from a distance, but until you are involved in such an incident, it is difficult to determine how any one of us would respond in such an incident.

Ricky's Popi


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