# Best indoor potty



## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

So, Oliver did okay with the little trays. NEVER got poop right, though. But this was kept in the pen; those accidents didn't often occur on the floor. Thank god. I'm considering that real grass patch. It's expensive, but is it worth it? I've also heard of people making their own with a patch of sod. We didn't get the indoor training down with him, and it's actually been okay, even in bad weather, but certainly not ideal. Are litter boxes maybe better than those trays? He'd sleep on them.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Melissa Woods said:


> So, Oliver did okay with the little trays. NEVER got poop right, though. But this was kept in the pen; those accidents didn't often occur on the floor. Thank god. I'm considering that real grass patch. It's expensive, but is it worth it? I've also heard of people making their own with a patch of sod. We didn't get the indoor training down with him, and it's actually been okay, even in bad weather, but certainly not ideal. Are litter boxes maybe better than those trays? He'd sleep on them.


I did not do indoor potty training so cannot comment on that. However, Mia was trained on pee WAY before poop! I was feeding kibble at first which I thought was high quality (Orijens) however while on this diet she would poop up to 9 times per day! I switched her to raw and the poop size and frequency went down to once or twice per day. This made it much easier to train her on poop! I do not think Mia can even get a whiff of sweet potatoes or peas without having to poop!


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

Omg Oliver too! Pee was SO MUCH EASIER. One night he simply stayed in the pen beside my bed and was always dry. I DID discover that he learned to pee on the tray, and that was why he could “hold it” so long


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I think people assume that potty box training is going to be automatic, especially if it is started by the breeder. It's not. Even that takes work. 

I don't think it really matters all that much which surface you use, though the real grass ones ARE frightfully expensive. I only know one person who has stayed with that, and she's got a lot of money. (the fake grass ones ALWAYS end up stinking... don't even try them)

For us, the best option has been litter boxes with a grid over the litter. But if that weren't an option, I'd probably just use litter. I really hate the smell of pee pads, even if they've been peed on once. So I'd end up changing them so often it would make me crazy, in terms of work cost AND the environment.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

Karen, really good point about potty training just being tough in general! I hope we can succeed with the indoor training this time. I’m going to try making the pen smaller this time to see if that helps w the tray.


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## DanielleDL (Jul 8, 2020)

Hello,

Which raw food did you switch to? Im trying to find one that works for my picky little guy

Thanks,
Danielle


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

DanielleDL said:


> Hello,
> 
> Which raw food did you switch to? Im trying to find one that works for my picky little guy
> 
> ...


I assume this is directed at me. I feed my dogs a raw homemade diet mainly. I occasionally feed some of the raw whole prey grinds from My Pet Carnivore for added variety. I have also used some raw whole prey grinds from Hare Today in the past but My Pet Carnivore is closer and has pickup locations. Both companies have great products and I highly recommend them. Their meat comes from local farms, they do not use HPP and they do not contain veggies or any synthetic vitamins or preservatives.

If you choose to feed a homemade diet it is important to do it properly so working with a canine nutritionist is recommended. It is not that hard to do if you are so inclined.

My dogs have never turned their noses up at anything in the more than 10 years I have been feeding them this way. They are ages 11 and 12 with no health issues or allergies.

There are likely other good companies out there but these two are the ones I am familiar with. Key things for a raw diet IMO are 1) locally raised meats 2) no HPP 3) no use of dead, diseased or dying animals 4) balanced blend of meat/bone/organs per whole prey model 5) no veggies 6) no preservatives and 7) no added vitamins. They should get their vitamins from the food. You will hear differing opinions on whether or not dogs need veggies. Mine have not had a veggie in 10 years and are super healthy, however I do include raw green tripe in their diet instead. They also get small amounts of egg including the shell.


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## ssquicksilver (Nov 23, 2014)

*Indoor potty*

Hi Melissa, funny, my dog is named Oliver too and I had him using a litter box until recently. I had a job that took me away from home during the day quite a bit so I wanted him to be able to go when I was gone. The drawback to this is of course that my dog couldn't be trusted in other people's homes because he never learned to hold it in or ask to go outside. Anyway, I first started him on pee pads. It was ok when he was a puppy because he just squatted to pee. As he matured he started to become a leg-lifter, which meant he was missing the pad, and he liked to shred the pee pads all over my apartment. Next I got the largest size pee pad holder I could find (large frame that holds them down). This was better, but I wanted to try the grass patch thingees. I had them delivered weekly which was a little costly, and by the time I threw them out they were disgusting. He was also leg lifting and missing the grass. Next up I wanted to get him going in a litter box, so I went to the Container Store and got one of those large rectangular plastic storage boxes you use to store things under your bed. It was better, but he was lazy and sometimes he would just stand in it with his front legs and start peeing all over the floor. I figured if I elevated the box he would have to jump up all the way into the box. I was correct, but he would still lift his leg and pee against the side of my dishwasher (box in kitchen obviously). Continuing...I took his crate that I had never used and put the plastic box in there, with plastic lids from other storage boxes all around the box against the sides of the gating. This way he could leg lift and pee against the sides, as he was going to do, and it worked! I found over time that the large pellets that are actually for cat litter boxes were the best. I could scoop out peed on litter and poop and it never smelled up my place. This system worked almost flawlessly for five years with only an occasional miss. He would just go in the box anytime day or night and I never had to think about it. Then about six months ago he just stopped using the box. Nothing changed at all about the setup, he just stopped using it and started peeing and pooping on the floor. I have no clue what happened, and like I said he had been using it perfectly for FIVE YEARS! No matter what I did to encourage him he wouldn't use the box. If I put him in there he would just look at me like he was traumatized and then lie down on the litter. Next morning, there was pee all over the floor again. Never could figure it out, but now we're in a house and as long as I stay mindful of taking him out often, he's been good. I also started crating him at night to teach him to hold it till morning. Sometime in the future I am going to have a pet door installed, but for now with the endless quarantine I'm able to keep a pretty good routine going.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

ssquicksilver said:


> Hi Melissa, funny, my dog is named Oliver too and I had him using a litter box until recently. I had a job that took me away from home during the day quite a bit so I wanted him to be able to go when I was gone. The drawback to this is of course that my dog couldn't be trusted in other people's homes because he never learned to hold it in or ask to go outside. Anyway, I first started him on pee pads. It was ok when he was a puppy because he just squatted to pee. As he matured he started to become a leg-lifter, which meant he was missing the pad, and he liked to shred the pee pads all over my apartment. Next I got the largest size pee pad holder I could find (large frame that holds them down). This was better, but I wanted to try the grass patch thingees. I had them delivered weekly which was a little costly, and by the time I threw them out they were disgusting. He was also leg lifting and missing the grass. Next up I wanted to get him going in a litter box, so I went to the Container Store and got one of those large rectangular plastic storage boxes you use to store things under your bed. It was better, but he was lazy and sometimes he would just stand in it with his front legs and start peeing all over the floor. I figured if I elevated the box he would have to jump up all the way into the box. I was correct, but he would still lift his leg and pee against the side of my dishwasher (box in kitchen obviously). Continuing...I took his crate that I had never used and put the plastic box in there, with plastic lids from other storage boxes all around the box against the sides of the gating. This way he could leg lift and pee against the sides, as he was going to do, and it worked! I found over time that the large pellets that are actually for cat litter boxes were the best. I could scoop out peed on litter and poop and it never smelled up my place. This system worked almost flawlessly for five years with only an occasional miss. He would just go in the box anytime day or night and I never had to think about it. Then about six months ago he just stopped using the box. Nothing changed at all about the setup, he just stopped using it and started peeing and pooping on the floor. I have no clue what happened, and like I said he had been using it perfectly for FIVE YEARS! No matter what I did to encourage him he wouldn't use the box. If I put him in there he would just look at me like he was traumatized and then lie down on the litter. Next morning, there was pee all over the floor again. Never could figure it out, but now we're in a house and as long as I stay mindful of taking him out often, he's been good. I also started crating him at night to teach him to hold it till morning. Sometime in the future I am going to have a pet door installed, but for now with the endless quarantine I'm able to keep a pretty good routine going.


The only animals I have had that use litter boxes are cats. Although my cats always faithfully used their litter boxes I know people with cats where after years the cat starts going elsewhere. In one case, the owner found that the scent of the litter had changed and this must have turned off the cat. In the other case, someone had told her that as the cat gets older the paws are more sensitive and the cat sometimes prefers a softer litter. Not sure if this applies to dogs but thought I would share.


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## stephsu (Apr 27, 2020)

ssquicksilver said:


> The drawback to this is of course that my dog couldn't be trusted in other people's homes because he never learned to hold it in or ask to go outside.


Is this really a thing? I hadn't thought about that! Is there a way to teach both to use the litter box and to ask to go out?? I plan to use a litter box but would like to bring my puppy elsewhere and would hope he could hold it or ask to go out if I teach him to...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

stephsu said:


> Is this really a thing? I hadn't thought about that! Is there a way to teach both to use the litter box and to ask to go out?? I plan to use a litter box but would like to bring my puppy elsewhere and would hope he could hold it or ask to go out if I teach him to...


It is definitely NOT a "thing". Something is wrong with the training if a dog thinks if the dog thinks it is OK to eliminate inside ANY building. My dogs know that there are two "OK" places to potty. Outdoors or in a litter box. NOT aywhere they want in any house they want. I have never had a problem with this, and all my dogs have been litter box trained from the start.

It can take a LONG time for puppies to reliably ASK to go out on their own (with or without litter box training... if you read though potty training posts, you will see people bemoaning this over and over) I remember with Kodi, posting that even though he never had accidents, I often wondered whether he was trained or I was trained... because it was because I knew when to take him out. I remember that it was during his second winter, so when he was about 18 months old maybe? That I heard him give this one, deep bark. A bark I'd never heard before. I went to see what he wanted, and he was looking at the door! He wanted to go out!!! I was SO thrilled!!! From that point on, he had figured it out, and would ask to go out. But it was a LONG time coming!!!

The girls took even LONGER to learn to "ask" but it really didn't matter, because they just followed the older dogs in and out when they went, and everyone pottied together. Past the "infant potty training", training the younger ones was SO much easier, because they just followed along and did what the older ones did!

Now, ANY dog who is in a strange house may not know how to ask to how outside, so may be forced into having an accident, if not given some help in the new surroundings. Any time I am visiting, I make sure to have my dogs potty before going into the house, and I don't just let them wander unsupervised. It is not polite and it is not safe for them. If they are near me, I can see if they are looking uncomfortable, or going to a door and look like they need to potty, and I take them out. If they have an accident at someone else's house, that would be on me, not on them, and not a result of them being litter trained dogs.

And if we are STAYING somewhere, we bring a litter box along. Last winter, I went to a dog show with Panda, and when I got to the hotel, realized that I had forgotten her litter box. I went to a local Home Depot and bought a disposible pain roller tray, and spead some of her wood pellets in that in the hotel bathroom. She slept with me, on the bed, but when I got up in the morning, there was a little pee spot in her litter. So she had gone and found her litter box by herself during the night or early in the morning, before I woke up. Nice!

So, no, I do not buy that a dog who is litter box trained is more likely to potty in someone else's house.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

How old is Oliver? 

I've TRIED them ALL (or just about) and could go into business reselling potty trays, gates and ex-pens. 

Why do you want Grass Sod? I've done that, too. The worst thing I tried was Astro-Turf. Talk about smell, it was Gagging Awful. Dogs who are indoor housebroken to a potty tray, eventually prefer going outside. You don't have to train them to go outside. 

If you are wanting to indoor house break Oliver, you have to decide to do it and Stick With A Plan. And, you're in the right place to learn how to do it and you will be successful. BUT .... it takes time and patience. I'm assuming Oliver is a very young puppy.

The KEY is confinement when you don't have EYES on Oliver. He's needs an ex-pen with a potty tray or two, in one room where he is confined while In Training. 

Few puppies will pee and poop where they sleep, eat and play. I had to add two potty trays in my ex-pen because initially it was too large for a tiny puppy. It didn't take Patti long before she got the idea where to go. Every time she peed or pooped on the tray, we had a Party arty: with a Treat!

Puppies will have accidents. They'll make a good guess on what to do but sometimes their head is over the tray and their butt's over the floor. This happens once in a while but they get better at aiming as they get older. And...they'll take a nap on it but this will pass. 

One tray I did not try was the one with three sides with a grate on top. I think, in particular this would be the thing I would do if I had, had a male dog. But, it's good for females because it has sides that helps keep them in the tray. 

I use the Equine Horse Pellets. There's no smell. And, they work under every tray I've used. 

I put the photos of my ex-pen set up under another thread that I think you are monitoring.


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## Rob Smith (Jul 3, 2020)

Kona is 10wks and have been using Fresh Patch (Real Grass) and success is beyond my expectations. We havent had an accident in 3 days, at night he sleeps in his playpen cries anywhere around 12:30-2:30 without turning on lights (so as no playtime) I open the gate he runs to the grass does his business and back to bed. In the morning its #2 within 15min of waking and goes to the grass. Since I live in a high rise indoor training is a blessing. As far as smell, no urine smell and as long as #2 is picked up right away (and flushed) no smell.`


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

krandall said:


> stephsu said:
> 
> 
> > Is this really a thing? I hadn't thought about that! Is there a way to teach both to use the litter box and to ask to go out?? I plan to use a litter box but would like to bring my puppy elsewhere and would hope he could hold it or ask to go out if I teach him to...
> ...


No no no. The more common scenario is the dog starts going outside and won't use the indoor potty anymore. They all prefer grass. That's why I'm going to spring for the real grass. At least for a while.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

Anyway, Karen I agree. Not a thing!!!


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Rob Smith said:


> Kona is 10wks and have been using Fresh Patch (Real Grass) and success is beyond my expectations. We havent had an accident in 3 days, at night he sleeps in his playpen cries anywhere around 12:30-2:30 without turning on lights (so as no playtime) I open the gate he runs to the grass does his business and back to bed. In the morning its #2 within 15min of waking and goes to the grass. Since I live in a high rise indoor training is a blessing. As far as smell, no urine smell and as long as #2 is picked up right away (and flushed) no smell.`


Cute Dog. Works the same with potty trays.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Melissa Woods said:


> No no no. The more common scenario is the dog starts going outside and won't use the indoor potty anymore. They all prefer grass. That's why I'm going to spring for the real grass. At least for a while.


That has not been my experience or others on this forum. Eventually, if there is access the dogs prefer to go outdoors. But, when the weather is bad or no one is home to let them out they know where to go and will use the potty tray.

Yesterday, we had heavy rain, wind and thunderstorms all day and night. Patti peeked her nose outside, turned around and decided the potty tray was a safer and dryer deal.

We have a three story condo in the mountains with NO YARD. Dogs must be walked, unless they are indoor potty trained to a potty tray. We walk for Fun! Not to go Potty in the wee hours of the morning or late evening.

Nothing against Grass but doesn't work the way you're thinking about.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

Mikki said:


> Melissa Woods said:
> 
> 
> > No no no. The more common scenario is the dog starts going outside and won't use the indoor potty anymore. They all prefer grass. That's why I'm going to spring for the real grass. At least for a while.
> ...


Sorry I actually misphrased this. I meant to say that it's really really unlikely that an indoor trained dog would refuse to go outside and get confused by indoor training. More that IF you get the dog too used to going outside they'll naturally prefer it,

The grass comment was only because that's what I plan to do this time.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

And I do have a yard. I’m sure it was my fault, but when he would pee all over the expen, and toddle off the tray without going, I gave up and let him use the yard. Aiming to try something different this time


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Melissa Woods said:


> And I do have a yard. I'm sure it was my fault, but when he would pee all over the expen, and toddle off the tray without going, I gave up and let him use the yard. Aiming to try something different this time


How old is Oliver? Age makes a difference.

I experimented with everything. You'll figure it out but it sounds like Oliver's ex-pen is too large. He shouldn't have enough room to pee on the ex-pen floor.

I was an Exhausted Puppy Mom for the first 10-months and initially went back and forth on indoor house breaking, which was a new idea. I had a hard time getting my head around the idea of a dog peeing and pooping in the house. I finally stuck with the indoor housebreaking plan because it was easier.

I'll, also, clarify.

I had heard dogs prefer _to do their jobs_ outside and was surprised! once Patti had the freedom to go outside that she would hurry back inside the house to pee and poop.

*WHAT?!* As she matured that changed.

Now she does her job outdoors 98% of the time. For whatever unknown reason, there are times she's uses the potty tray, probably she's just too lazy to go outside. Mostly it's due to bad weather or lack of access.

*TAKING A DOG TO SOMEONE'S HOME: *When I take Patti to someone's home I keep her on a leash, which is seldom. I would NOT turn her loose unless it was a very familiar and frequent place we visit.

If people bring their dogs to my house they are required to keep them on a leash or next to them. I don't want dogs running loose in my house and wouldn't turn mine loose in someone else's home.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

My Oliver? He’s 18 months and completely potty trained outdoors. I’m not going to go backwards with him. I’m trying to figure out what to do with the new puppy. She’s not even here yet. So we’ll see. She’s going to be 8 weeks when she comes home. I totally expect it to be hard! Lol


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Melissa Woods said:


> My Oliver? He's 18 months and completely potty trained outdoors. I'm not going to go backwards with him. I'm trying to figure out what to do with the new puppy. She's not even here yet. So we'll see. She's going to be 8 weeks when she comes home. I totally expect it to be hard! Lol


Big Difference!! I'm sure it's possible with a good trainer but 18-months is too old for indoor housebreaking. The little guy has established his routine. Good Boy!

But, Indoor housing breaking an 8-week-old is amazingly SIMPLE, or it was for me. They naturally go to a potty tray but it does take confinement. An ex-pen and limitation to a smallish room area, so they can learn where the potty tray is and get to it.

It was a WHOLE lot easier than outdoor housebreaking, which is why I gave up on that. The baby can learn to do both, but if you do indoor housebreaking stay Laser Focused on doing it.

I only have one dog. Karen has three and can help with training a puppy with an older dog.

Here was my ex-pen. Initially, I had two potty trays to limit the area. Wasn't long before I removed the second one. It ex-pen door opened up to a family-kitchen, the second entrance was closed off with a gate. They GROW!! so fast. I'm sure you have everything for the second baby.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

The litter box in the pen part (and then expanding their "safe" area inside the house) is no different no matter how many dogs you have. The "learning to potty outdoors" part is dead easy if you have older, well-trained dogs... you just let the puppy follow along and do what the "big dogs do".


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> The litter box in the pen part (and then expanding their "safe" area inside the house) is no different no matter how many dogs you have. The "learning to potty outdoors" part is dead easy if you have older, well-trained dogs... you just let the puppy follow along and do what the "big dogs do".


Unless you are stupid like me and get a yorkie puppy when your older dog (Mia) is only six months old and a bad example!!! Luckily my yorkie was easy to train and did not do what his big sister did!


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

Mikki said:


> Melissa Woods said:
> 
> 
> > My Oliver? He's 18 months and completely potty trained outdoors. I'm not going to go backwards with him. I'm trying to figure out what to do with the new puppy. She's not even here yet. So we'll see. She's going to be 8 weeks when she comes home. I totally expect it to be hard! Lol
> ...


Oooh I wonder if it will be easier this time because Oliver was almost 12 weeks old when we got him. Breeder didn't have a tray setup. She had a litter box when they were tiny but then had already started to take them outdoors by that age. Maybe starting with an 8 week old will be easier to teach?


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

Also I’m TOTALLY fine with Oliver continuing to go outdoors. My goal is to get him to use the backyard rather than leashing him up to go out front. But the good thing is that even if we walk and he DOESN’T go, he’s trained and will come whine at me to take him back out vs pooping on the floor. But he never really learned to go to the door, because I always took him out on the leash every few hours. And morning and evening. At least he whines rather than nipping at me now. Which could be interpreted as his wanting to play. 

I’m just really hoping to do indoor with Roxie, especially if I can get her to go on the tray or grass or whatever in the middle of the night! Oliver did sleep through the night within a few days of being home. This is the blessing of getting a puppy at 3 months old!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Unless you are stupid like me and get a yorkie puppy when your older dog (Mia) is only six months old and a bad example!!! Luckily my yorkie was easy to train and did not do what his big sister did!


That's why I said "older, WELL TRAINED" LOL!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Melissa Woods said:


> No no no. The more common scenario is the dog starts going outside and won't use the indoor potty anymore.


This is what happened with us, because I didn't really keep up on using the indoor potty. Although, he still remembers to pee on sawdust!

Indoor potty training is harder. "Harder" isn't even the right word, the process isn't harder. It's harder to see the big picture involved? One problem is that there isn't the same kind of comprehensive information available online about indoor potty training as there is traditional potty training. If someone just has a different learning style, or doesn't have the time or patience to read through indoor potty training threads on a forum, that alone creates a barrier. I have also observed a lot of people find that indoor potty training "clicks" in retrospect, after they have resorted to traditionally potty training, and it's really hard to backtrack.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Melissa Woods said:


> But the good thing is that even if we walk and he DOESN'T go, he's trained and will come whine at me to take him back out vs pooping on the floor. But he never really learned to go to the door, because I always took him out on the leash every few hours. And morning and evening. At least he whines rather than nipping at me now. Which could be interpreted as his wanting to play.


I kind of think it will be good for him to be on a good schedule when you bring the new puppy home anyway. It does sounds like he'll eventually give you clear cues, and he's headed in that direction. I don't think there's an age limit on a dog figuring out how to give cues, they just get in when they get it. I was lucky mine did give cues pretty early, but I remember being warned that some don't ever do it, so I was relieved. Mine gave cues for poop really early but pee took a lot longer and it was harder to read.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Mikki said:


> One tray I did not try was the one with three sides with a grate on top. I think, in particular this would be the thing I would do if I had, had a male dog. But, it's good for females because it has sides that helps keep them in the tray.


I do have one. Mine is very careful about peeing and generally I prefer the trays to be as flat as possible so I can slide them out of the way. However, the taller sides are really useful on a potty tray that's on carpet, or if the tray needs to be up against a wall. I used it on the carpet at the top of the stairs where mine was having accidents first thing in the morning. He couldn't hold it all the way downstairs, and the tray solved the problem.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I do have one. Mine is very careful about peeing and generally I prefer the trays to be as flat as possible so I can slide them out of the way. However, the taller sides are really useful on a potty tray that's on carpet, or if the tray needs to be up against a wall. I used it on the carpet at the top of the stairs where mine was having accidents first thing in the morning. He couldn't hold it all the way downstairs, and the tray solved the problem.


AGREE, the flat trays are easier to hide, slide under a desk or in a corner out of sight. We a small condo in the mountains that's carpeted throughout and have thought about trying the tray with sides and moving it against the wall. Thanks for the feedback.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> This is what happened with us, because I didn't really keep up on using the indoor potty. Although, he still remembers to pee on sawdust!
> 
> Indoor potty training is harder. "Harder" isn't even the right word, the process isn't harder. It's harder to see the big picture involved? One problem is that there isn't the same kind of comprehensive information available online about indoor potty training as there is traditional potty training. If someone just has a different learning style, or doesn't have the time or patience to read through indoor potty training threads on a forum, that alone creates a barrier. I have also observed a lot of people find that indoor potty training "clicks" in retrospect, after they have resorted to traditionally potty training, and it's really hard to backtrack.


I also think it REALLY helps to have had a breeder who does a stellar job of getting the puppies started, then is really supportive of the puppy buyers in continuing that training once the puppies go home. I realize that not everyone has that.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I kind of think it will be good for him to be on a good schedule when you bring the new puppy home anyway. It does sounds like he'll eventually give you clear cues, and he's headed in that direction. I don't think there's an age limit on a dog figuring out how to give cues, they just get in when they get it. I was lucky mine did give cues pretty early, but I remember being warned that some don't ever do it, so I was relieved. Mine gave cues for poop really early but pee took a lot longer and it was harder to read.


I can't honestly remember when the girls started "cueing" us to go out, but they both do. Panda's is the funniest. The litter box is in the kitchen, and it is one with a plastic grate. her cue that she wants to go out is to get on that grate and run in circles to make it make noise. She will then stop and see if you are paying attention. (or coming from another room) She will do this several times. Only if you ignore her "ask" will she finally use the potty! LOL!

Kodi barks, and Pixel scratches, FORTUNATELY, always on the glass!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> AGREE, the flat trays are easier to hide, slide under a desk or in a corner out of sight. We a small condo in the mountains that's carpeted throughout and have thought about trying the tray with sides and moving it against the wall. Thanks for the feedback.


I am REALLY lucky that my one boy is not a leg lifter when peeing. He lifts his leg to mark, but he doesn't mark in the house. If he uses the litter box, it's because he needs to pee. Then he stands in the litter box like a horse, spreads his legs out and goes. (while turning his head back to observe what is going on back there. ALWAYS.  )


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

krandall said:


> I can't honestly remember when the girls started "cueing" us to go out, but they both do. Panda's is the funniest. The litter box is in the kitchen, and it is one with a plastic grate. her cue that she wants to go out is to get on that grate and run in circles to make it make noise. She will then stop and see if you are paying attention. (or coming from another room) She will do this several times. Only if you ignore her "ask" will she finally use the potty! LOL!
> 
> Kodi barks, and Pixel scratches, FORTUNATELY, always on the glass!


LOL!! Funny stories about your dogs, circling and making noise on potty tray and squating like a horse. Super Smart when going using the House Bathroom.

I'm constantly amazed at how smart Patti is on training me about what I need to do.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

krandall said:


> I also think it REALLY helps to have had a breeder who does a stellar job of getting the puppies started, then is really supportive of the puppy buyers in continuing that training once the puppies go home. I realize that not everyone has that.


Agree!

However, Patti was not litter box trained. She followed mama out of the Welping box into a small enclosed area to do there job. She was 8-weeks-old when we got her and she intuitively went to the potty tray in the ex-pen without coaching. It was like she trained herself.

It was your help and encouragement that help me follow through and understand the How To Do indoor housebreaking. It's an idea that's getting around but people don't understand it's not permanent unless they work at doing for a long while. You have to forget about outdoor housebreaking. The dog will do that on their own if given the option at a later day. That's hard to get your head around... Dogs Housebreaking themselves, if you provide the opportunity.

It's the easiest way to housebreak a dog, if you know how.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> You have to forget about outdoor housebreaking. The dog will do that on their own if given the option at a later day. That's hard to get your head around... Dogs Housebreaking themselves, if you provide the opportunity.
> 
> It's the easiest way to housebreak a dog, if you know how.


It is, but it's a BIG leap of faith for some people... especially for those who are being told by others that it will make their dog think it is OK to potty in ht house.

I just don't understand THAT logic AT ALL. Does your teenager (or even your 5 year old) think it's ok to pee behind the couch because you let them use the indoor toilet? But for some reason, people use this as an excuse not to do indoor potty training all.the.time.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

krandall said:


> It is, but it's a BIG leap of faith for some people... especially for those who are being told by others that it will make their dog think it is OK to potty in ht house.
> 
> I just don't understand THAT logic AT ALL. Does your teenager (or even your 5 year old) think it's ok to pee behind the couch because you let them use the indoor toilet? But for some reason, people use this as an excuse not to do indoor potty training all.the.time.


*LOL!* Great analogy.

Except a 5-year-old might and a dog wouldn't think about doing it. >


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Melissa Woods said:
> 
> 
> > But the good thing is that even if we walk and he DOESN'T go, he's trained and will come whine at me to take him back out vs pooping on the floor. But he never really learned to go to the door, because I always took him out on the leash every few hours. And morning and evening. At least he whines rather than nipping at me now. Which could be interpreted as his wanting to play.
> ...


Oh I agree. Oddly we had pee down much sooner. The benefit of poop being your main issue is that you can know when they'll need to go. So we kinda have that issue still- we take him out multiple times a day to pee, but we take him out in the morning and afternoon (particularly morning) KNOWING he'll have to go.

I am going to be really consistent on getting him his regular walks and play time. Another thing he really needs is naps. He needs to come in with me and sleep AWAY from the kids. Otherwise he starts getting into trouble. I discovered he needs to actually be separated or he'll stay awake. And then he'll be chewing everything, jumping on the kids, etc. he's really like an overtired child in that respect! I signed a new book contract today and won't have edits for a few weeks. So I'm devoting all this time to the dogs.

We had the carpets cleaned today to ensure there were no leftover accidents and found quite a few under the black light. Arg.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> *LOL!* Great analogy.
> 
> Except a 5-year-old might and a dog wouldn't think about doing it. >


LOL!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Woods said:


> We had the carpets cleaned today to ensure there were no leftover accidents and found quite a few under the black light. Arg.


And I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but they can get animal stains out to the extent that they can passs the black light test, and pass the human nose test. They CANNOT oass the dog nose test. Those spots will STILL attract untrained puppies. So be on your guard...


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

krandall said:


> And I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but they can get animal stains out to the extent that they can passs the black light test, and pass the human nose test. They CANNOT oass the dog nose test. Those spots will STILL attract untrained puppies. So be on your guard...


I know. I am so annoyed with Oliver because some of these, in the hall, in particular, I had NO idea about! oh my dog has never marked in the house...yeah right LOL


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Melissa Woods said:


> I know. I am so annoyed with Oliver because some of these, in the hall, in particular, I had NO idea about! oh my dog has never marked in the house...yeah right LOL


I didn't know he was marking behind a door until we got a light to help clean up the spot at the top of the stairs (where he had accidents when he couldn't make it outside first thing in the morning). We cleaned that spot at the top of the stairs a few times, but I don't know if it ever worked because I finally put a potty over the spot. After that he only peed in the potty, but I'm nervous a puppy would be able to smell it, even though I can't.

I didn't even know mine was marking at all at first. He didn't lift his leg and I was so naive, I didn't even know that was a thing. I thought we failed potty training for probably two weeks. It was okay because I started interrupting him and taking him out constantly and I finally figured out what was going on, but I never saw him behind the door until after we found it. Even then, I never saw him do it, he just went back there and sniffed around. I didn't smell it, either, and I have a nose for smells, especially pee.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

UPDATE on this. 

Tried grass for a week, wish she did fine with, but then she had that parasite thing and I had to be REALLY REALLY sterile. So we tossed that and started using potty trays with litter and they work equally well. I am SO PROUD of her. She is doing so well with potty training for her age.

Also, they are FAR cheaper!


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Good girl, Roxie!


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## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

*Potty Training*

Ok folks you are scaring me just a little about how hard it was/is to potty train your pups. I have owned several dogs and have never used the indoor method before. I am planning to crate train and take Desi outside to do his business. Since I live in Florida we don't have to worry about cold, snowy weather however we do have lots of rain at times. My boxer would look at me as if I was crazy if I opened the door for her to go out and it was raining. Anyone else here use the outdoor only method?


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

We started with a training tray in her 2x6-foot ex pen along with her crate, food, and water. When we realized she was no longer using the training tray (as she preferred to go outside on the grass), we removed the training tray. I suspect if we had some sort of emergency and left her with the tray in the pen, she'd figure out to use the tray. All that to say, it's nice for them to know how to use a tray so that if outdoors is not an option for some reason, they know what to do indoors. Karen will tell you that the pads that go under the plastic grid of the training tray are bad for the environment (true) and smell bad (probably true if you have a bigger dog or leave them there a long time), but we were happy with 



 and the pads that went in it. (This tray would go nicely with Desi's nose - tee hee!). Karen or someone else can tell you about the pellet option. As far as the rain goes, Shama often pees on the rocks under the deck if it's raining, but she sometimes just wants to go in the grass even if it's raining. I am pretty sure she would never willingly go out into the pouring rain; we have to carry her down to the yard if it's raining. We accompany her outside 95% of the time anyway ... Good luck!


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Here are pictures of Shama's ex pen set-up. Substitute the training tray for the fluffy bed at the end opposite the crate, and you have her initial set-up. When DH and I are teaching at our schools instead of from home, Shama is in her pen all day except for when her dog walker visits around noon. The dog walker is patient and not in a hurry, so she opens the door of the pen and lets Shama emerge when she feels like it. Sometimes Shama doesn't get up until 1:30 PM even though we left her at 6 AM! (The dog walker and Shama hang out in the back yard and in the house; they don't actually take walks ...)
(And she still lies in that alley at age five.)


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Oh lots of people have just done outdoor. I don’t think potty training is hard, I think a lot of people (myself included) underestimate the length of time it takes for small dogs to become completely reliable. It can take up to a year, which is why indoor training can be useful. Often people accept the dog not being completely trustworthy at only 5 or 6 months old and assume that’s as good as it gets.

Indoor potty training is useful for a lot of reasons, like weather and travel, but one of the biggest is just that it takes small dogs longer to be able to hold it for longer periods of time, and some can’t ever hold it a full 8 hours. It gives them a way to go potty when someone can’t take them out. But many people are home, or can have someone around to take the puppy out long term, so if indoor training doesn’t appeal to them, they have other options. 

Personally, I’m a huge advocate of indoor training, and I wasnt sure at first. It’s not harder than “regular” outdoor potty training, both require the same diligence in supervision, and an indoor trained dog will always be able to go potty outside later. However, indoor potty training has to start very early.


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## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

Thanks ShamaMama for sharing the photos of the X-pen setup. Too funny how she likes the little space between the crate and pen. Makes sense to use the tray if you can’t be there when they need to go out.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Oh lots of people have just done outdoor. I don't think potty training is hard, I think a lot of people (myself included) underestimate the length of time it takes for small dogs to become completely reliable. It can take up to a year, which is why indoor training can be useful. Often people accept the dog not being completely trustworthy at only 5 or 6 months old and assume that's as good as it gets.
> 
> Indoor potty training is useful for a lot of reasons, like weather and travel, *but one of the biggest is just that it takes small dogs longer to be able to hold it for longer periods of time, and some can't ever hold it a full 8 hours. *It gives them a way to go potty when someone can't take them out. But many people are home, or can have someone around to take the puppy out long term, so if indoor training doesn't appeal to them, they have other options.
> 
> Personally, I'm a huge advocate of indoor training, and I wasnt sure at first. It's not harder than "regular" outdoor potty training, both require the same diligence in supervision, and an indoor trained dog will always be able to go potty outside later. However, indoor potty training has to start very early.


Size of the dog doesn't determine how long they can hold their pee-pee. Small dogs pee a Small Amount and have Small Bladders. Large dogs pee Big Amounts and have Big Bladders. They both can hold their pee for 8 or more hours or Not.

YES! Indoor potty training is VERY USEFUL and EASY (EASIER)...if done Right and at a Young Age. It does take longer to housebreak a toy dog than a large breed. Havanese are extremely smart and love to please. They are easier than most Toy Dogs.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Faithb said:


> Ok folks you are scaring me just a little about how hard it was/is to potty train your pups. I have owned several dogs and have never used the indoor method before. I am planning to crate train and take Desi outside to do his business. Since I live in Florida we don't have to worry about cold, snowy weather however we do have lots of rain at times. My boxer would look at me as if I was crazy if I opened the door for her to go out and it was raining. Anyone else here use the outdoor only method?


It is ALWAYS easier to house train a small breed puppy using an indoor potty method, at least at first. Can you ONLY do outdoors? Of course! But it's a lot more work and you are likely yo have more accidents. They are small animals with very small bladders. And while I do NOT consider potty training Havanese to be difficult, it DOES take longer than with most large breed dogs.

Whether you KEEP an indoor potty long-term or not, is up to you. EVERY SINGLE ONE of them eventually learns to potty outdoors, if given access to the outdoors. Every one _I_ know of has clearly preferred outdoors as they get older. It's up to you if you want to continue reinforcing the indoor potty so that they will continue to use it in bad weather.

I _can_ tell you that I've heard from MANY people over the years on this forum who regret keeping up their dog's indoor potty skills/interest when something unforeseen happens. ...Like when my husband had a heart attack out of state, and Kodi and Pixel (a puppy at the time) had to be left alone for 12 hours a day, while I drove long distances to be with him each day. I couldn't arrange for dog care on short notice, but they did FINE with a litter box, toys and a water bottle. I couldn't have done that if they didn't understand litter boxes. But BOTH _MUCH_ prefer pottying outdoors if given the opportunity.

I liken it to our use of a porta-potty. None of us WANTS to use one, but when there is nothing else available, it is FAR better than the alternative! That is the attitude I see in my dogs about the litter boxes. They would rather go outside, but when there is a foot of snow on the deck or it is driving rain outside, I open the door, let them see, and the "humph" at me and go use the litter box instead! LOL! And you DON'T have to worry about your larger dog. My son's two large dogs just left (with them) after they all lived with us for a year. Robbie was a bit concerned that his 70 lb Treewalker might try to use the litter box. Never even crossed his mind! LOL! Fortunately, (or unfortunately, depending on your goals) it is almost impossible to train/retrain an adult dog to a litter box, once they are convinced that dogs "only" potty outside.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I should clarify, too, that I really don’t believe indoor potty training is harder. In fact, I agree it makes potty training a lot easier. The hard part is the idea of it. There’s a lot of conflicting information, so it’s hard to see the big picture in some ways and easy to second guess. But that’s also true of potty training in general in some ways. If you want to do it, though, the Havanese Forum is the place to get the information. It is hands down the best resource for accurate information on indoor potty training any breed.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

So you get some other ideas for set-up (though they are very similar to Shamamama's except for brands) Here is Kodi's pen when he was a puppy, and then the pen we used for Pixel and Panda when they came along. Kodi had more room because his was also where he slept overnight for his first two years. Then Dave relented, and the dogs have slept with us in the bedroom since then! LOL! (two in crates, one on the bed)

Kodi's pen had a simple, open litter box with pine pellets. There are several disadvantages to open litter boxes. Some puppies dig in them, spreading them all over the floor and others will eat some. If they eat one or two, it's not a big deal. If you have one of "those" puppies that is going to fill their tummies with pellets... You definitely need to put a grid over it. (and stepping on them on the floor with bare feet is sort of like stepping on small lego bricks. They HURT!!! So we have found that some of the "grated trays" meant for pee pads (and Shamamama is right, I hate the pads... besides the waste, the smell after even ONE pee is too much for me!!!) have plenty of room under the grate for pellets instead of a pee pad. The one in these photos is a UgoDog, but I'm not sure that company is around anymore. There are PLENTY of other options on Amazon, however.

The third photo is what we call "puppy jail". In this case, Panda had had a UTI, and decided that the discomfort was caused by the litter box, so was refusing to use them. If you have a puppy who is not using the litter box (or potty tray... whatever indoor potty option you choose) no matter what the reason is, reducing the space so there is ONLY room for their bed and the potty leaves no options for mistakes. Panda needed this amount of confinement (only when not being supervised by us OUT of the pen, of course) for less than a week before she realized that the litterbox was NOT making her hurt, and she went back to happily using it.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Mikki said:


> Size of the dog doesn't determine how long they can hold their pee-pee. Small dogs pee a Small Amount and have Small Bladders. Large dogs pee Big Amounts and have Big Bladders. They both can hold their pee for 8 or more hours or Not.


You're right, just like humans there are dogs that can hold it for less time and dogs that can hold it for longer, regardless of breed. Mine couldn't even hold it until 6am at first, and now he can hold it for 10 hours overnight. Some will never be able to hold it that long.

I do think it's common for people to overestimate how long a small dog should be able to hold it. It may be a puppy thing and not just a small dog thing, and some start out able to hold it better than others, but i know mine grew in his ability to hold it longer over time.


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## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

Thanks for the photos. I purchased the plastic Iris playpen and an expandable crate before I saw these setups. I like how you extended the size by attaching the crate. I might give that a try.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Faithb said:


> Ok folks you are scaring me just a little about how hard it was/is to potty train your pups. I have owned several dogs and have never used the indoor method before. I am planning to crate train and take Desi outside to do his business. Since I live in Florida we don't have to worry about cold, snowy weather however we do have lots of rain at times. My boxer would look at me as if I was crazy if I opened the door for her to go out and it was raining. Anyone else here use the outdoor only method?


I used the outdoor potty method ONLY and it is one of the items on my "wish I had done differently" list. I had no idea that dogs ever went potty indoors. I thought that was only for cats. Our weather here can get very bad but my dogs go out in everything. It is not because of weather I wish I had trained them on the indoor potty. It is in case an emergency situation arises and they are left for more than a few hours. In 12 years, this has never been an issue, however you never know what could happen. As far as dogs CAN holding it and SHOULD holding it, my opinion is that just because they CAN hold it that does NOT mean they SHOULD (same holds true for me).


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Faithb said:


> Thanks for the photos. I purchased the plastic Iris playpen and an expandable crate before I saw these setups. I like how you extended the size by attaching the crate. I might give that a try.


If you do this, you have to know that your puppy will not potty in his crate... EVER. Because you have to use a fairly large crate... One that he can't jump up onto, or it will just become an escape route!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> As far as dogs CAN holding it and SHOULD holding it, my opinion is that just because they CAN hold it that does NOT mean they SHOULD (same holds true for me).


I TOTALLY agree! We transported a friend's Havanese with us to the national specialty in Chicago a few years ago. Every time we stopped to potty our dogs, (we had FIVE Havanese with us in all!!!) we would get her out too. We were on the road one full day and half of the next. That little dog NEVER peed or pooped. I was having a heart attack. When we got there her owner told me, "Oh! She never potties on long trips. That's just her! :surprise


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Faithb said:


> Ok folks you are scaring me just a little about how hard it was/is to potty train your pups. I have owned several dogs and have never used the indoor method before. I am planning to crate train and take Desi outside to do his business. Since I live in Florida we don't have to worry about cold, snowy weather however we do have lots of rain at times. My boxer would look at me as if I was crazy if I opened the door for her to go out and it was raining. Anyone else here use the outdoor only method?


I'm relatively new. My baby is 2.5 years old now. I had NEVER! heard of indoor-housebreaking a dog and while I wanted to do it, it was so WEIRD it was hard getting my heard around the idea.

I really needed this set up because we vacation in the summers in a three story townhome in the mountains that has *no yard,* which would require us to walk a dog three or four times a day. PLUS if we left for the day we have to get a Dog Walker.

HOWEVER ....when I got Patti home I couldn't do it and decided to train her to go outside. Well that lasted about One DAY. The idea all you have to do is take them out every hour and praise them, doesn't work so well.

So, I took her out every thirty minutes. After standing around for sometime Patti would pee or poop. I'd bring her back inside and she would squat on the floor. You pick them and rush back outside. What Now! OK ... Let's try every 15 minutes. REPEAT, REPEAT, REPEAT...

Karen...Propped Me UP. Kept Me Going and I Switched My Attitude. I WAS AMAZED! at how easy it was for Patti. She knew exactly what the potty tray was for and began using it immediately.

That doesn't mean they are Trustworthy right away. Karen said, three months with no accidents you can consider them trustworthy. That's the rule I followed.

However, that is for one room area where the puppy knows where to go. You will need to train them where to go in other rooms in the house. At one time I had no less than 5 gates up in my house plus and ex-pen. I had potty trays in three different rooms. When you eliminate a potty you'll need to do it in steps.

DO NOT LET THE PUPPY HAVE THE RUN OF THE HOUSE!!! for a long while.

It's exhausting training a dog. But if you'll follow the steps and NOT get into a Rush, you will not have soiled carpets and ruined furniture.

At 10-months, Patti was trustworthy enough to have access to three rooms in the house. The other parts were off limits until she matured more. At 11-months she unexpectedly went into Heat and had a set back for a couple of weeks. I had to keep her on a leash and limit the areas she could be in. The hormones made her lose her mind. She was a very Horny Girl and was marking everything.

That issue was fixed several months later.

People who say they've outdoor broken a Havanese in a few weeks or months .... I Roll My Eyes and Wonder....


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

No run of the house. Not trustworthy at all. Oh I am not naive. BUT she hasn't had any accidents. She can hold it fairly long, even if uncomfortable. She is kind of picky about preferring her potty tray. I've only had her use the backyard once or twice while we were playing. This is absolutely NOT to say she won't easily go outside when she's ready. Only that I'm so excited this is working. Oliver was a very different story. The fact she alerts me by barking and whining...I am a proud mama. Oliver still doesn't! He bites you and that took a year. Before that, he was reliable but we had to take him out on the right schedule he was used to.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> I TOTALLY agree! We transported a friend's Havanese with us to the national specialty in Chicago a few years ago. Every time we stopped to potty our dogs, (we had FIVE Havanese with us in all!!!) we would get her out too. We were on the road one full day and half of the next. That little dog NEVER peed or pooped. I was having a heart attack. When we got there her owner told me, "Oh! She never potties on long trips. That's just her! :surprise


I guess the important thing is...you gave her the opportunity!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Mikki said:


> People who say they've outdoor broken a Havanese in a few weeks or months .... I Roll My Eyes and Wonder....


I cannot say I trained a Havanese in a few weeks, but I did train my male yorkie in a few weeks! He is going on 12 years old and has NEVER had an accident in the house since he was 12 weeks old. He was so easy to train and yorkies are supposed to be worse than Havanese! I guess I lucked out.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> I guess the important thing is...you gave her the opportunity!


It would have been nice if my friend had warned me ahead of time, though!!! LOL! I was SURE I was going to deliver her show dog to her with a kidney infection!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> I cannot say I trained a Havanese in a few weeks, but I did train my male yorkie in a few weeks! He is going on 12 years old and has NEVER had an accident in the house since he was 12 weeks old. He was so easy to train and yorkies are supposed to be worse than Havanese! I guess I lucked out.


I don't KNOW, but I suspect that the supposedly "untrainable toy breeds" are probably QUITE trainable in the hands of someone who would follow the same steps we're talking about in this thread. I think a LOT of people just don't put the time and effort in with little dogs because it's just not that big a deal when a toy breed dog pees or poops on the floor. So people just get used to "that's the way it is", especially when they read over and over "how hard" it is to train them.

I think a LOT of the "separation anxiety" and "picky eaters" we come across on the forum are exactly the same thing. People have heard that this is a "problem" with the breed and it BECOMES people-made problem. Not to say there isn't the OCCASIONAL dog of ANY breed with true separation anxiety, because there are. But a lot of the toy dog stuff is man-made. And I don't believe in healthy dogs who are picky eaters without their owners ALLOWING them to become picky eaters.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

mudpuppymama said:


> I cannot say I trained a Havanese in a few weeks, but I did train my male yorkie in a few weeks! He is going on 12 years old and has NEVER had an accident in the house since he was 12 weeks old. He was so easy to train and yorkies are supposed to be worse than Havanese! I guess I lucked out.


Yorkies are notoriously not hard to train but not trainable. Great Job!


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Karen,

If I were you I'd screen shot all these responses your taken so much time to write and copy them into Word. The next time all you'll need to do is Open Up Word. Copy and Paste and do some adjustments to to the person and question.

It takes a long time to write quality answers. And I appreciate you and SO! many others who have done the same for me. My advice is the same for all those Others.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> It would have been nice if my friend had warned me ahead of time, though!!! LOL! I was SURE I was going to deliver her show dog to her with a kidney infection!


No kidding! I would have been worried too. Just wondering if she drinks less water when traveling? Even so, that is a long time!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> I don't KNOW, but I suspect that the supposedly "untrainable toy breeds" are probably QUITE trainable in the hands of someone who would follow the same steps we're talking about in this thread. I think a LOT of people just don't put the time and effort in with little dogs because it's just not that big a deal when a toy breed dog pees or poops on the floor. So people just get used to "that's the way it is", especially when they read over and over "how hard" it is to train them.
> 
> I think a LOT of the "separation anxiety" and "picky eaters" we come across on the forum are exactly the same thing. People have heard that this is a "problem" with the breed and it BECOMES people-made problem. Not to say there isn't the OCCASIONAL dog of ANY breed with true separation anxiety, because there are. But a lot of the toy dog stuff is man-made. And I don't believe in healthy dogs who are picky eaters without their owners ALLOWING them to become picky eaters.


Great points. I think what happened to me is that Mia was a disaster so I was EXTRA EXTRA determined. I took off two weeks from work when I got my yorkie and my eyes were never off of him for a minute and I took him out super often. My theory was that every mistake was going to be a step backwards so I was determined to never let a mistake happen.


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## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

I agree wholeheartedly Karen! Thank you all for your comments and insight. Keep your fingers (and toes too) crossed for me.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> Karen,
> 
> If I were you I'd screen shot all these responses your taken so much time to write and copy them into Word. The next time all you'll need to do is Open Up Word. Copy and Paste and do some adjustments to to the person and question.
> 
> It takes a long time to write quality answers. And I appreciate you and SO! many others who have done the same for me. My advice is the same for all those Others.


That's actually a really good idea!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Great points. I think what happened to me is that Mia was a disaster so I was EXTRA EXTRA determined. I took off two weeks from work when I got my yorkie and my eyes were never off of him for a minute and I took him out super often. My theory was that every mistake was going to be a step backwards so I was determined to never let a mistake happen.


And that is EXACTLY the case. Everything else we suggest is just stuff to make it EASIER for them never to make a mistake. The GOALis "errorless pottying". It hardly ever happens without A FEW mistakes, but5ge goal is to keep them to an absolute minimum. It's all about establishing good habits.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Faithb said:


> I agree wholeheartedly Karen! Thank you all for your comments and insight. Keep your fingers (and toes too) crossed for me.


You can do it!!!


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

mudpuppymama said:


> Great points. I think what happened to me is that Mia was a disaster so I was EXTRA EXTRA determined. I took off two weeks from work when I got my yorkie and my eyes were never off of him for a minute and I took him out super often. My theory was that every mistake was going to be a step backwards so I was determined to never let a mistake happen.


I was extra determined with Oliver and Roxie because of my failings with my Chihuahua many years ago, LOL


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Melissa Woods said:


> I was extra determined with Oliver and Roxie because of my failings with my Chihuahua many years ago, LOL


I've learned lots of things the hard way!!! Not a pleasant way to learn but can be very effective!


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

krandall said:


> I don't KNOW, but I suspect that the supposedly "untrainable toy breeds" are probably QUITE trainable in the hands of someone who would follow the same steps we're talking about in this thread. I think a LOT of people just don't put the time and effort in with little dogs because it's just not that big a deal when a toy breed dog pees or poops on the floor. So people just get used to "that's the way it is", especially when they read over and over "how hard" it is to train them.
> 
> I think a LOT of the "separation anxiety" and "picky eaters" we come across on the forum are exactly the same thing. People have heard that this is a "problem" with the breed and it BECOMES people-made problem. Not to say there isn't the OCCASIONAL dog of ANY breed with true separation anxiety, because there are. But a lot of the toy dog stuff is man-made. And I don't believe in healthy dogs who are picky eaters without their owners ALLOWING them to become picky eaters.


I belong to this Havanese group on FB. These people don't treat Havs like dogs. As much as my little velcro dogs are part of the family, they can walk on their own four legs. A collar won't actually CAUSE immediate tracheal collapse. You have to socialize puppies. You can't keep them home the entire 16 weeks before they're vaccinated. A healthy dog doesn't need stairs to get on the couch. Crate training is not evil. Etcetera.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> I've learned lots of things the hard way!!! Not a pleasant way to learn but can be very effective!


I did OK with Potty training on all three of them, but you DEFINITELY learn as you go along! I was bound and DETERMINED that I would not have another "demand barker" after I allowed Kodi to become one. I did a MUCH better job with the other two. They do NONE of that!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Woods said:


> I belong to this Havanese group on FB. These people don't treat Havs like dogs. As much as my little velcro dogs are part of the family, they can walk on their own four legs. A collar won't actually CAUSE immediate tracheal collapse. You have to socialize puppies. You can't keep them home the entire 16 weeks before they're vaccinated. A healthy dog doesn't need stairs to get on the couch. Crate training is not evil. Etcetera.


I joined and left a few Havanese "pet" groups on FB. The signal to noise ratio is way too low. No one who REALLY knows what they are talking about can be even heard over all the nonsense posts. I still belong to some Havanese FB groups, but they are SPECIFICALLY for sports, genetics, breeders, etc. Not general pet groups. The focused groups seem to be much more serious, smaller, and not dominated by nonsense posts. (they usually have strong, knowledgeable admins/mods too)


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

krandall said:


> I joined and left a few Havanese "pet" groups on FB. The signal to noise ratio is way too low. No one who REALLY knows what they are talking about can be even heard over all the nonsense posts. I still belong to some Havanese FB groups, but they are SPECIFICALLY for sports, genetics, breeders, etc. Not general pet groups. The focused groups seem to be much more serious, smaller, and not dominated by nonsense posts. (they usually have strong, knowledgeable admins/mods too)


Oh yeah, and all the "my hav is stubborn but I put up with it" posts. No, you don't train your Hav at all, and then you expect them to listen and when they don't, label the dog stubborn. I can admit my own training failures LOL. And dogs don't have this upper brain cognitive abilities people do. Advanced cerebral cortex emotions and responses like plotted out passive aggressiveness, etc. just aren't possible even in smart dogs. Or even young children!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Woods said:


> Oh yeah, and all the *"my hav is stubborn but I put up with it" posts. No, you don't train your Hav at all, and then you expect them to listen and when they don't, label the dog stubborn. I can admit my own training failures LOL. And dogs don't have this upper brain cognitive abilities people do. Advanced cerebral cortex emotions and responses like plotted out passive aggressiveness, etc. just aren't possible even in smart dogs. Or even young children!*


That should be emblazoned on the top of every dog group. ...It's hardly EVER the dog's fault.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

I do have to say that Oliver's "picky eating," where he would legitimately starve himself for a couple of days and then be up all night roaming around the bedroom anytime I INSISTED he eat something new (which I would NEVER have tried, except he was over a year old and I couldn't wean him off puppy food). It SEEMED as if he wouldn't accept any adult kibble, but in reality, when he did he'd get a seriously upset stomach. I mean we'd wean slowly and transition but it never worked. I think his issue was legitimate stomach issues that made him adverse to whatever food. he's still not a big appetite dog, and sometimes he'll go a day with just a few bites of food, but I ended up on Freshpet with him because it doesn't give him diarrhea. I wish he was more food motivated for training purposes but oh well.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

krandall said:


> Melissa Woods said:
> 
> 
> > Oh yeah, and all the *"my hav is stubborn but I put up with it" posts. No, you don't train your Hav at all, and then you expect them to listen and when they don't, label the dog stubborn. I can admit my own training failures LOL. And dogs don't have this upper brain cognitive abilities people do. Advanced cerebral cortex emotions and responses like plotted out passive aggressiveness, etc. just aren't possible even in smart dogs. Or even young children!*
> ...


It's one extreme or the other. I'm pulling my hair out. We have one poster who doesn't believe dogs need to wear a collar at all till 16 weeks because they can't go out due to vaccines. Another is literally PUTTING A CHOKER ON A 16 WEEK OLD PUPPY to teach loose leash walking.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Woods said:


> I do have to say that Oliver's "picky eating," where he would legitimately starve himself for a couple of days and then be up all night roaming around the bedroom anytime I INSISTED he eat something new (which I would NEVER have tried, except he was over a year old and I couldn't wean him off puppy food). It SEEMED as if he wouldn't accept any adult kibble, but in reality, when he did he'd get a seriously upset stomach. I mean we'd wean slowly and transition but it never worked. I think his issue was legitimate stomach issues that made him adverse to whatever food. he's still not a big appetite dog, and sometimes he'll go a day with just a few bites of food, but I ended up on Freshpet with him because it doesn't give him diarrhea. I wish he was more food motivated for training purposes but oh well.


That's why I put in the caveat that a HEALTHY dog won't starve himself. Because if something is truly a digestive problem, that's totally different. 

As far a being "food motivated" for training, that is something that can be learned. Again, sometimes it means working with a hungry dog... training a meal times, using the dog's dinner as the training treats. Some serious sports trainers NEVER feed their puppies "meals", because ALL their food is given in the context of training. (Susan Garrett is one of those) I think that using a clicker while "learning to learn" is also really helpful.

Also, a lot of times when people say their dog is not "food motivated", they are just not using the RIGHT treats. Very few dogs won't respond to small pieces of steak! LOL! I use MOSTLY real, whole meats cut in small bits and overcooked a bit as training treats. I also use Happy Howie's food rolls. (I used to use Fresh Pet for training, but... Kodi's allergies).

The biggest thing in "learning to learn" is that the dog needs to make the CONNECTION between the "treat" (no matter what it is) and the fun game you play with him. Then the "click" starts to work just like the bell with Pavlov's dog. The whole thing becomes interconnected in their brains, and they understand that the bit of food is a token of your appreciation. Which they come to value just for that! Then you can usually use ANYTHING edible as a training treat.

The other thing that makes some people think that food is not a motivator for their dog is that (usually using a fairly low value food) they try to do too much luring in their training. If the dog doesn't REALLY WANT "that thing" (at that time) luring just doesn't work. That's one of MANY reasons that lure-based training doesn't work. Training treats should be clearly a reward for doing it right, not an incentive to do it at all.

I'm not sure if any of this helpd tou with Oliver, but I have yet to meet a dog that I couldn't teach to be happy with food treats in training, as long as they don't have SERIOUS food restrictions. (Like the VERY few dogs that must eat ONLY a low valued prescription diet and NOTHING else. (especially hydrolized protein diets) In these cases, sometimes it is easier to develop a strong toy or personal play response so that THAT can be the training reward.

And I use personal play as much as treats in training my dogs. None of them have a really steong drive toward toys in a training situation, which would be helpful, but I've never been able to develop it in them... which could be a problem with MY training, I'm not sure!)


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

krandall said:


> That's why I put in the caveat that a HEALTHY dog won't starve himself. Because if something is truly a digestive problem, that's totally different.
> 
> As far a being "food motivated" for training, that is something that can be learned. Again, sometimes it means working with a hungry dog... training a meal times, using the dog's dinner as the training treats. Some serious sports trainers NEVER feed their puppies "meals", because ALL their food is given in the context of training. (Susan Garrett is one of those) I think that using a clicker while "learning to learn" is also really helpful.
> 
> ...


All of this is so helpful! I'm trying to do a lot of training with both dogs, especially on recall. She seems more interested than he does. I'm going to try better treats. Cheese works for grooming, as does meat. So I may try more things like chicken, which I planned to do anyway. Even with Roxie, she can't chew most of the treats they have for purchase quickly enough. The other day I was working with her on the leash a little and we'd stop for the twenty seconds for her to chew it, repeat lol.

Oliver will often do the thing you ask when you offer the treat, but it's more for the praise. Sometimes he'll do it and not accept the treat, which is fine, but yeah you're right, if it was a good enough treat he'd eat it! I LOVE what you said about treats being a reward for doing it right, not an incentive for doing it at all. That COMPLETELY reframes the idea of training for me!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Woods said:


> Oliver will often do the thing you ask when you offer the treat, but it's more for the praise. Sometimes he'll do it and not accept the treat, which is fine, but yeah you're right, if it was a good enough treat he'd eat it! I LOVE what you said about treats being a reward for doing it right, not an incentive for doing it at all. That COMPLETELY reframes the idea of training for me!!!


Yes, if you need to offer the treat to get him to do anything, he hasn't really learned that thing to fluency. I'd get the treats COMPLETELY out of the picture on recalls. Have SOMETHING (even kibble, but freeze-dried MEAT is better with a less food-motivated dog) in your pocket. Watch him. When you SEE HIM COMING TOWARD YOU ANYWAY is the time to say his name and your recall word in a bright, upbeat tome. Then make a HUGE DEAL about him arriving... even if it was his idea to start with. Just like potty training, you have to start small with the "habit" of recalling. Don't EVER call him until you are at least 90% POSITIVE that he's on his way to you anyway.

Just as the GOAL (even if you don't get it 100% right) is "errorless potty training", you want to work for "errorless recalls" too. Don't let them practice NOT coming. When you want them for something, go get them. As tempting as it is, DO NOT CALL THEM. Make every recall a positive experience!

Even then, a solid recall is not something that they learn quickly, and it is something you have to work on regularly through the dog's life if you want it to remain a strong behavior. But just like every "potty accident" is something you have to train harder to overcome, the same is true for recalls. Don't let "not coming" be something that they learn is an option.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Woods said:


> All of this is so helpful! I'm trying to do a lot of training with both dogs, especially on recall. She seems more interested than he does. I'm going to try better treats. Cheese works for grooming, as does meat. So I may try more things like chicken, which I planned to do anyway. Even with Roxie, she can't chew most of the treats they have for purchase quickly enough. The other day I was working with her on the leash a little and we'd stop for the twenty seconds for her to chew it, repeat lol.
> 
> Oliver will often do the thing you ask when you offer the treat, but it's more for the praise. Sometimes he'll do it and not accept the treat, which is fine, but yeah you're right, if it was a good enough treat he'd eat it! I LOVE what you said about treats being a reward for doing it right, not an incentive for doing it at all. That COMPLETELY reframes the idea of training for me!!!


I almost never use "packaged" treats for training. If you calculate the cost, Filet mignon is cheaper! (and they like it better!) Get a big HUNK of deli meat, roast beef or turkey, low sodium if you can. Have them cut it at least 1/2" thick. Then cube that and dry it out further in a low over. Or do a pork loin roast. Overcook it for human tastes (or if you want to feed the family from it too, feed them, then overcook the rest!) This cubes BEAUTIFULLY, and if it's overcooked, it's dry enough to hold up without further processing. And it's CHEAP for the amount of training treats you get out of it!)

Real meat, cut TINY, works best for small breed puppies, because you want something that they can swallow right away, with little or no chewing. Fresh Pet roll, cubed tiny, then baked in a low oven to dry it more works great too.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

krandall said:


> Yes, if you need to offer the treat to get him to do anything, he hasn't really learned that thing to fluency. I'd get the treats COMPLETELY out of the picture on recalls. Have SOMETHING (even kibble, but freeze-dried MEAT is better with a less food-motivated dog) in your pocket. Watch him. When you SEE HIM COMING TOWARD YOU ANYWAY is the time to say his name and your recall word in a bright, upbeat tome. Then make a HUGE DEAL about him arriving... even if it was his idea to start with. Just like potty training, you have to start small with the "habit" of recalling. Don't EVER call him until you are at least 90% POSITIVE that he's on his way to you anyway.
> 
> Just as the GOAL (even if you don't get it 100% right) is "errorless potty training", you want to work for "errorless recalls" too. Don't let them practice NOT coming. When you want them for something, go get them. As tempting as it is, DO NOT CALL THEM. Make every recall a positive experience!
> 
> Even then, a solid recall is not something that they learn quickly, and it is something you have to work on regularly through the dog's life if you want it to remain a strong behavior. But just like every "potty accident" is something you have to train harder to overcome, the same is true for recalls. Don't let "not coming" be something that they learn is an option.


Roxie comes when I call her name, so I lavish her with praise. I don't always have a treat, but she's at the age where following me or coming for a toy is very fun. I never chase her, ever. I learned that lesson. And I do some recall games that she tends to do better at than he does BUT one cool thing is he's started imitating what she does!

Both of them love fetch. I wonder if I could use this to my advantage teaching recall? Especially for Oliver who likes to run away when he's called. This is also a game for him.

Potty training is interesting. I taught both dogs without treats. Just praise. Especially because when she's in her pen she'll walk over to her tray and go when I'm not watching. So it's hard to catch.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Fetch is not usually a good way to teach recalls, because it is SO easy for it to turn into "keep away".

I like to START recalls in a hallway, with one person on either end. Call the dog back and forth, treats and prise and patting when they arrive, then let the other person call them. They tend to LOVE this game! You can also do it outdoors with a long line on them, but that STILL gives them the opportunity to get it wrong and need "correction", even if it's a really mild correction. (getting pulled in the right direction by the long line) It does, however, keep them from getting away. 

"Restrained recalls" can be very useful too. This is where someone else holds the dog back with hands in front of their chest. The handler runs away, calling as they run. The dog WILL chase you. continue running until they catch up, then treats/praise/patting party. In this case, the long line is just so you or your helper can step on it in the off chance that a squirrel or bunny runs interference!

I tend to do outdoor, long-line recalls only AFTER the dog is almost 100% successful on short recalls in the house.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

Thank you Karen! I’m excited to try all this!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Woods said:


> Thank you Karen! I'm excited to try all this!


Happy to help! Just remember that it takes a long, LONG time for a puppy who has no history of ignoring recalls to become proficient. With an adolescent like Oliver, who already has had a history of NOT coming, (and most likely self-rewarding in one way or another) the same things will work, but you will have to work on them really diligently for a lot longer before he TRULY believes that "coming" is the best option!


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

krandall said:


> Happy to help! Just remember that it takes a long, LONG time for a puppy who has no history of ignoring recalls to become proficient. With an adolescent like Oliver, who already has had a history of NOT coming, (and most likely self-rewarding in one way or another) the same things will work, but you will have to work on them really diligently for a lot longer before he TRULY believes that "coming" is the best option!


He comes for DH WAY more easily. Flips on his back for a belly rub, then they go out for a walk. I started this, unfortunately, by calling him, and when he didn't come I'd go open the garage door and now he takes FOREVER to come and get his harness on. It's a game for sure.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> I like to START recalls in a hallway, with one person on either end. Call the dog back and forth, treats and prise and patting when they arrive, then let the other person call them. They tend to LOVE this game!


DH and I called Shama back and forth from different spots in the yard. She did seem to love go back and forth between us for treats. Years later, I watched a (Kikopup?) video about this and realized we'd missed a key element of the training. We would allow Shama to get a treat from one of us then anticipate that if she ran to the other, she would get a treat. As a result, she would decide to leave the person who had just called her after getting a single treat. We should have continued treating her after she came to us to reinforce that coming when called gets her treat after treat. She should only have run to the other human AFTER being called, at which point the first treater would stop treating ...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ShamaMama said:


> DH and I called Shama back and forth from different spots in the yard. She did seem to love go back and forth between us for treats. Years later, I watched a (Kikopup?) video about this and realized we'd missed a key element of the training. We would allow Shama to get a treat from one of us then anticipate that if she ran to the other, she would get a treat. As a result, she would decide to leave the person who had just called her after getting a single treat. We should have continued treating her after she came to us to reinforce that coming when called gets her treat after treat. She should only have run to the other human AFTER being called, at which point the first treater would stop treating ...


Yes! Ideally, when using this for recalls, you want to have your hands on the dog (or his/her collar), THEN give the treat too. That's almost MORE important than the treat after treat in the beginning. Then let go of the puppy the SECOND the other person calls them.


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