# Heart Murmur



## Beamer

Mango will not be coming home this wknd due to a heart murmur the vet detected today. The vet said it might go away in 2wks or more. Does anyone here know much about these in young puppies (8wks old)???

This news is the worst ever...


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## Kathy

Here is an exerpt from vetinfo.com about a puppy with a heart murmur. What I have been told is seeing a canine cardiologist for further tests is best if the murmur doesn't either go away or get better with age.

Heart murmur in puppy 

Q: I have just acquired a 8 to 10 week old puppy. She is the runt of the litter and has a significant heart murmur. You can actually feel the murmur when you hold her. She seems healthy, happy and hungry. My vet has checked her and told me to come back in a week. He said that sometimes these murmurs disappear as the pup grows older. My questions are what happens if the murmur does not go away? What can I expect? Surgery? Drugs? Death? Thanks for your help. Anita. 

A: Anita- Heart murmurs occur for a variety of reasons. The loudness of the murmur does not always correlate well with its seriousness. A small defect in the wall between the heart chambers may produce a very loud murmur that will not be much of a problem. On the other hand, murmur from a patent ductus arteriosus are loud in many cases and they are serious. If the murmur persists your vet will probably either recommend a work-up of the murmur at his or her hospital if possible or refer you to a cardiologist if that is necessary. It would be best to go to the cardiologist if your vet remains worried about this murmur or if your puppy is not growing normally and playing like a normal puppy. Hopefully she is OK. In that case it may be OK to adopt a "wait and see" attitude -- but it still wouldn't hurt to see a veterinary cardiologist if there is one in your area.


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## Melissa Miller

This is awful! 
Before you get to upset, wait and see what the vet has to say. I will say that its best you found out now. Please keep us posted. I know someone else going through this same thing right now.


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## Havtahava

> This news is the worst ever...


 Ohhhhhhhhhh, hang in there! It's actually a good thing that you learned of this before you brought Mango home. I know it doesn't seem like it now, and I'm so sorry, but this could be a really good thing in a year from now when you look back and re-read this somehow. Try to hang in there and know that your perfect little Mango is waiting for you.

I'm hoping this is just a speedbump in the road to bringing your Mango home.


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## Lynn

Sorry about Mango, I was just on the Havanse Club site reading about the heart murmur, maybe it will help if you read the information on the site.
http://www.havanese.org/hcaHealth.htm


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## whitBmom

Oh, I am so sorry to hear that  Like others have said here, just wait and see how it all pans out. Just keep as positive of an outlook as you can and try not to get discouraged. Oreo and I are sending you good vibes and well wishes.


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## Beamer

Thanks everyone... 

I just don't know what to do.. If the murmur does not go away, do I accept mango as is? Or will the future not be so bright? Its so hard..

Do any of the breeders on here know much about puppy heart murmurs?? anyone???????


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## Havtahava

I don't know about heart murmurs in puppies, but my good friend's daughter (human) has a heart murmur and they have had to restrict her activity level and take her in for annual exams ($$ and worry).

The decision to take Mango with that knowledge is totally up to you. Will the breeder reduce the price to compensate for medical expenses to come? Are you willing to take Mango to the vet as often as needed and restrict activity as much as will be needed? Would it be better to wait for another puppy? It's totally up to you. (Please don't answer these questions for me or anyone else. I'm just trying to prompt some questions for you that come to my mind.)

I would recommend that you make an appointment to go talk to _your _veterinarian as soon as possible and find out what he/she thinks. S/he will give you much better questions to ask from his/her training. S/he he has much better knowledge than 99.9% of us.


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## Doggie Nut

I pray all is well!:angel:


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## Julie

I'm sorry to hear this Freeway... I know you have been waiting what seems like a long time to get your little Mango.Like the others posted before though,it is best to know this now,rather then later when you would of been shocked at your vets office...then wondering what to do now/contact breeder?take puppy back?etc.I hope everything works out for you and little Mango comes home safe and healthy.


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## Cheryl

I am the Rn who posted on your other thread about people's murmus. Apparently dogs can have innocent murmus as well. This site sounded intesting. http://yandisa.com.hosting.domaindirect.com/id56.html

If I find more inf I'll let you know.

I like the advice of checking with your vet to see what he has to say.


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## Cheryl

This is fromn the OFA site: http://www.mapleridgegoldens.com/sas-.htm#murmurs

There are innocent murmurs in dogs. You just need to be careful. What is this vet's expereince?


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## Beamer

*The vet said..*

The vet if Florida (that is where the co-breeder lives and where mango is right now) said that he is not a specialist in that field and refered mango to another Dr. in 2 weeks time to see if it dissapears. If not, then they can grade it by doing tests. So.... i really do not know what will happen... the only way the vet will let mango fly and sign off on the vet check is if he was in the actual plane cabin with someone, and not in cargo. Apparently that is some rule in the state of Florida. hooohummmmmmmmmmm..


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## juliav

Freeway,

I am so very sorry to hear about Mango. There doesn't appear to be much to do but wait... You got some good advice and I agree, talk to your vet and really weigh your options.


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## Thumper

I'm so sorry to hear about that! Maybe you'll just have to fly there to pick Mango up and you can monitor the murmer. Hopefully, it will resolve itself and go away 

So sorry and I hope Mango is OK.

Kara


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## windfallhavs

Do not panic just yet....it could be a harmless murmur and nothing to worry about. If it is still there in 2 weeks, the breeder should be taking the puppy to a cardiologist for an echocardiogram w/color Doppler. They can pinpoint exactly where the murmur is and how severe it is. I had a puppy with an intermittent murmur and did the echo, it turned out to be coming from the mitral valve (which according to my cardiologist is not uncommon for small, long coated breeds) and was so insignificant that it would have no effect on the puppy's quality of life...she actually came back textbook normal. So just because the murmur is there does not mean it is going to cause problems...I would just hang tight for a few more weeks and see how things develop.


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## Rita

Aw. So sorry. Wait and see what the vet says and please keep us posted. sending HL&K.


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## juscha

I'm so sorry to hear that about Mango! I hope everything will work out and Mango will be ok! 
:wave:


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## SMARTY

We are so sorry to hear about Mango. Hopefully the 2 weeks will be a healing time and there will be no reason for worry. I agree it is best to find out now rather than have her in your home and heart then find out. This is the reason for using a good breeder that checks for these type of things. Good luck we will be thinking of you. Keep us posted.


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## Missy

sorry about mango freeway. time will tell. do do some soul searching to see if this mango is for you or if you would be better off waiting. Only you can answer that. But who knows in two weeks mango may have a clean bill of health


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## boo2352

So sorry to hear about Mango. I don't know much about Havanese, but my first Golden had a heart murmur as a puppy that went away. I hope this happens to Mango.


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## Cosmosmom

My understanding is that this may just be age related and it may disappear over time . I think the vet will probably recommend a referral to a canine cardioligist more for a workup but also for a CYA- do not be suprised if he just tells you to wait a few weeks and then he will reasses the puppy . It may disappear over time . It may be something he finds that is not life altering and threatening and he will just watch it and recheck it .
If the puppy is healthy in every other way and eating and playing well I would not get too stressed .
People and animals have mumurs and live perfectly normal lives . If it is patent ductus - it often closes on is own .. no surgery required ..
Think positive thoughts and hopefully he will be home soon ..


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## Greg

freeway1976 said:


> The vet if Florida (that is where the co-breeder lives and where mango is right now) said that he is not a specialist in that field and refered mango to another Dr. in 2 weeks time to see if it dissapears. If not, then they can grade it by doing tests. So.... i really do not know what will happen... the only way the vet will let mango fly and sign off on the vet check is if he was in the actual plane cabin with someone, and not in cargo. Apparently that is some rule in the state of Florida. hooohummmmmmmmmmm..


I'm in Florida too.....and it's not a rule per say. When the temp reaches a certain degree, then they can't be shipped as cargo.

Now, Sedoso do not fly in cargo or as baggage. Period.

Informed owners and breeders alike understand that under the current FAA regulations, the allowable conditions for shipping dogs as cargo via any commercial airline (including lack of pressurization, recorded temperature variation from 0 to over 90 degrees in the cargo hold during a single flight, sustained decibel levels requiring the use of ear protection by OSHA for ground crews, amount of time dogs are allowed to be kept on the tarmac, and the unacceptable number of dogs injured, lost, and killed each year as a result of shipping ) makes shipping Sedoso puppies as cargo or baggage an unacceptable practice, carrying significant risk for both physical harm and psychological trauma. The only safe and acceptable air transportation for Sedoso puppies is in an under seat carrier in the passenger compartment. Responsible owners only transport their adult Dogs as cargo or excess baggage a last resort and when it is clearly and defensibly in the best interest of the dog to do so. (This does not include the shipping of pregnant bitches as cargo, which is not recommended at all.) In such cases, direct flights during temperate weather will lessen the risk somewhat.

I understand you have your heart set on this puppy. But I already see 2 red flags. As a responsible breeder I thought I should point them out.


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## Cosmosmom

If it were my puppy I would go and pick it up in person . I do not know where you are located and if this is economically feasible for you or even an option due to time restraints but I agree with the breeder if the dog has a health issue with its heart it is probably best it be transported accompanied by the new owner in the cabin of the plane in a sherpa with you or maybe by automobile if possible ..
This way it is not subject to all the stress and the change in cabin pressure .. 
This little guy needs a little extra TLC right now ..


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## Beamer

*Mango*

Hi Greg,

I agree with most of what you are saying about the transporting of puppies. But many breeders do ship puppies it seems. Mine is only 2.5 hours away. Some people ship puppues over seas on 8-9 hour flights. And I absolutly trust my breeder 100%. She has been breeding toy dogs for over 30 years, and is one of the premeir Havanese breeders in Canada and a founding member of the havanese fanciers of Canada.

Cosmosmom - Yes, I think I will actually go and pick up my puppy and fly back with him. And most likely at that time, the heat embargo will be on anyways, so probably do not have a choice. I agree, he will need lots of TLC!

Crossing my fingers that all is well with Mango at his next vert check...


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## Havtahava

Freeway, I completely agree with everything Greg said. He wasn't trying to be a downer, but was concerned by a couple of things that have been written. Just because a lot of people do something doesn't make it in the best interest of the puppy. I'm not trying to knock you. I see the same concerns.

It doesn't really matter, but if you're up to it, why is Mango in Florida and his breeder is a founding member of the Hav Fanciers of Canada? I'm confused on that.


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## Beamer

*Hi..*

She (my breeder) lives in Southern Ontario during the summer months and winters in Florida. Her co-breeder lives in Florida... The litter in which I was promised a puppy from was forced to stay in Florida as she had to come back to toronto early with a family emergency. The litter was only a week old at that time and obviously could not travel by car all the way back..

I payed her and all her havs a visit a few weeks ago (2hour drive from my house).. Wow, so many amazing hav's. Actually first time I have ever met a hav before, and i was quite impressed! Such calm sweet dogs.. I wantd to take them all home!! haha..

So, thats the story...


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## Cosmosmom

I am confused about that as well - maybe we missed something along the way ..
I know I bought asta from a breeder in Arizona but the puppies were born in New Mexico as she had the pick of the litter as she had the STUD .. 
I am aware dogs are shipped by air and all goes well - that is how I got my dog Cosmo . I was not that comfortable with it but the breeder said it was not a problem and it was not during the summmer . She said she shipped her dogs all the time to new owners and to dog shows and she had never had a problem Still I was very nervous and I called the airlines every step of the way - 4 TIMES .
They knew where he was at all times . He arrived right on schedule at Sfo on Continental .. 
The point I was trying to make was that your dog has a health concern that is ceating a certain amount of anxiety with you and my understanding is he vet is not willing to sign the health document with release to fly at this time . A bit of a conundrum unless you go in person ..


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## Greg

My wife is from TO and my son was born there. In fact many of my family and friends live either there or Barrie. I'm giving a shout out to all my boyz in on Spadina!!! Not to forget Yonge and Lawrence!!!!

I'm going to stand on my post about shipping a puppy. The length of time a person has been breeding has nothing to do with the quality of the pup or the correctness of shipping.

If you end up unable to get this pup because of the health issues or transportation........I have a friend in Toledo with excellent health tested pups. You'd have to drive there to pick the pup up....but you can always see lovely downtown Detroit on your way....<grin>


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## Havtahava

> She (my breeder) lives in Southern Ontario during the summer months and winters in Florida. Her co-breeder lives in Florida...


Ah, OK. I couldn't put the pieces together on how that worked. Thanks for explaining it.


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## Tom King

I'm going to agree with what Greg says too. When we hug a puppy just before we give it up, it not only has as good a genetic background as you can get, it has gotten the best start one can get from the time it was conceived until we hand it to it's new family. This does not include a ride in the belly of a plane. We meet people at the airport if they aren't able to easily come here and this week Pam is meeting a lady from Atlanta half way. We want to spend time with the new family ourselves as well as not do ANYTHING to set back the puppy.

.02


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## irnfit

One of the main reasons I got my puppies the way I did, was because I didn't want one shipped. I just couldn't bear the thought of a 10 week old pup in the cargo hold of a jet. Unfortunately, I lost out on a lot of very good pups, because the extra expense to pick them up out of town was not an option for me at the time. 

I am presently saving my pennies for #3, which I hope will be a show dog. However, I have included the travel plans as well :biggrin1:


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## Melissa Miller

I would have never let my dogs arrive to me shipped, although I don't judge those that do. I think it really depends on the puppy. You CAN tell at some stage the puppies that are more timid, or the more outgoing ones. 

With that being said, we did take Goldie to Hawaii in which she was cargo part of the way, and I knew she would be fine. I did a lot of research. 

Now, sure an accident can happen, however it is far more dangerous for us to get in our cars every day and drive on the road than it is a dog to go cargo. Im not saying that justifies it, just that at some point there are risks in everything we do all the time. 

I would not want my puppy to experience a plane ride with out me the first time, but thats me. Im not at all against letting a dog go cargo in general though. 

I dont think everyone drives all those big dogs to Westminster every year. I know the dog Vivi was lost at JFK and Im sure this year there were still some people who flew out. Its sad, but again there are risks in everything. I think its more dangerous leaving your dog at a show site all weekend, sleeping in a convention center than it is riding cargo. lane:


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## Greg

Melissa Miller said:


> I would have never let my dogs arrive to me shipped, although I don't judge those that do. I think it really depends on the puppy. You CAN tell at some stage the puppies that are more timid, or the more outgoing ones.
> 
> With that being said, we did take Goldie to Hawaii in which she was cargo part of the way, and I knew she would be fine. I did a lot of research.
> 
> Now, sure an accident can happen, however it is far more dangerous for us to get in our cars every day and drive on the road than it is a dog to go cargo. Im not saying that justifies it, just that at some point there are risks in everything we do all the time.
> 
> I would not want my puppy to experience a plane ride with out me the first time, but thats me. Im not at all against letting a dog go cargo in general though.
> 
> I dont think everyone drives all those big dogs to Westminster every year. I know the dog Vivi was lost at JFK and Im sure this year there were still some people who flew out. Its sad, but again there are risks in everything. I think its more dangerous leaving your dog at a show site all weekend, sleeping in a convention center than it is riding cargo. lane:


There are a couple of points I'd like to make here. The first has to do with those show dogs. You'd be surprised how many of those show dogs do NOT fly as cargo. Experienced breeders and handlers alike know the dangers inherent in shipping dogs. Those that are owner handled usually fly as a carry on and those exhibitors who have too many to fly with, typically drive.

Additionally, in this case we are not writing of a show dog, nor an adult Havanese. We are writing of an 8 wk old baby. There really isn't a comparison.

And while some are willing to ship their babies I'm not. I know it means someone has to pay more to get my pup. I know it means they have to travel all the way to florida. But I also know it means I'll get to meet the buyer, they get to meet me and SEE where and how my puppies are raised. I don't meet people in parking lots. I've delivered dogs before as a convenience. If the trip is too expensive or too time consuming, then I'm not the breeder for everyone. I've found people who breed quality Havanese I'm willing to spend my hard earned money on don't ship either.

G


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## Melissa Miller

Greg, on the show dogs, I was referring to the bigger breeds who can not go carry on. Driving to NYC is not possible for a lot. I was just making a point, and not talking about only Havanese. 

And in this case it was an 8 week old we were talking about, but the subject of shipping dogs and its saftey in general came in to play, so I was broadening the topic.  I can do that. 

Like I said I do agree with picking up a puppy and would never have my puppy shipped. I just said I dont judge those who do on occasion ship puppies. I have known good breeders who have once in a blue moon shipped a puppy who they felt could handle it ok. A breeder who ships all their puppies I would think twice about. Most breeders I know will go out of their way to get the dogs there ANY other way. 

I like that you stick to your guns and don't ship. Good for you! I was just presenting a side to dogs going cargo in general. While its not the best way, its not out of the question. An 8 week old? Not a great thing. As for meeting the buyers in person and in your home etc...good for you! It should be that way!

We are kinda on the same page....


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## sky

I will never ship a dog after what I witnessed out the airport window years ago. I saw a large crated dog on the tarmac tossed about like a piece of luggage, landing any which way. You are entrusting a tiny puppy to the care of people who handle baggage all day long. You have no idea who is loading and unloading your puppy. I would never do that to an animal I cared about.


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## Julie

Some airlines have great people who carry on the puppy......lane: and take care of it as there own!:biggrin1:


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## good buddy

Julie said:


> Some airlines have great people who carry on the puppy......lane: and take care of it as there own!:biggrin1:


That is true. I would personally not ask for a puppy to be shipped to me. I would fully expect to go get it--and I don't like to fly! If that's what I had to do, I would do it!

I have baby parrots and I get people asking if I ship them-the answer is no! I won't ship my babies either. However...I did ship a larger bird once. I spoke to the airlines and was directed to the live animal desk where I made sure of the arrangements. My bird would be loaded last into a pressurized and climate controlled part of the plane, by the live animal crew. She would be unloaded first at the transfer and taken directly to a climate controlled van by the live animal crew where she would wait for her transfer. Then once again she would be loaded last into a similar pressurized and climate controlled area to finish her flight. Once the plane landed she would be unloaded first, by live animal crew members once again, and taken directly to the live animal desk where she would only be released to the appropriate party after seeing ID. I was able to follow every step of the way on-line and called the new family just as they arrived at home with her. **It was still nerve wracking for me!

I had also contacted other airlines at that same time who admitted they would leave her on the tarmac in Georgia for a couple hours while shse waited for her connecting flight! This was during storm season too! :jaw:


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## Cosmosmom

When I got Cosmo he was flown on Continental and I felt handled well all the way . They knew where he was and he was definetly not left on the tarmac . He was hand carried at all times and he did not seem at all distressed or upset when I got him .
I do not know if I would do it again . It depends on the circumstances . 
I called the airlines the day before he was shipped and all the information was already in the computer . They were expecting him and they knew the breeder by name as she used them many times . I asked about possible flight delays due to weather I was told they did not expect any problems or delays but if they occurred the dog would be taken to the baggage office where it was air conditioned and safe and he would not be left anywhere where he was not supervised and watched and he would not be boarded too early or left on the tarmac under any circumstances .. 
I was never put on hold by the airlines - the people who took my calls were polite understanding and supportive and they told me that Icould call them as many times as I wanted and I did . I called once the day before and I called four times the day he was traveling and I was always treated nicely and my call was taken immediately by a real person .. never a recording !!
They have a special number that you call - it is not considered to be regular cargo - special animal handling ...


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## sky

Thanks for the info. Julie, Christy and CosMom,
It sounds like systems are in place now that I was not aware of that are more animal-friendly.


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## good buddy

Cosmosmom said:


> When I got Cosmo he was flown on Continental and I felt handled well all the way ....


I also used Continental. The people I spoke with were at the Live Animal Desk, and my experience was the same as yours. I don't think all airlines have the same degree of service, so it's always good to ask alot of questions.


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## dboudreau

freeway1976 said:


> Mango will not be coming home this wknd due to a heart murmur the vet detected today. The vet said it might go away in 2wks or more. Does anyone here know much about these in young puppies (8wks old)???
> 
> This news is the worst ever...


:focus: Back to the original topic, Ryan any new information on Mango?


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## Beamer

*Mango*

Mangos breeder keeps on saying how much enery Mango has he is always just playing with his littermates and the younger littler. (hes a bit of a bully with the guys that are 4 weeks younger then him, because he's actually bigger than they are.. at 2.1 pounds... hahaahah

He is going back to the vet this Friday to see if he still has the murmur. If so he will go to a specialist and we shall see what they have to say after tests are done and whatnot. Hopefully everything will be ok and he will belane: home this wknd..


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## good buddy

I sure hope the little guy is ok.


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## Laurief

:kiss: OK - here goes - :cheer2: :cheer2: We are all cheering for you Mango for a healthy report on friday. :cheer2: :cheer2: We all want you to make it home to your forever home. We alo send loves & kisses:kiss: 
Laurie - and the pups.


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## Julie

:cheer2: COME HOME MANGO! :cheer2:


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## whitBmom

Count me in too - Oreo and I are sending Hav Kisses and good vibes for little Mango!!


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## Doggie Nut

Ok folks....Valentino has to get in on this! Mango, your family is waiting on you to COME HOME!!:couch2: :baby: :clap2:


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## Cheryl

I will be going out of town tomorrow and will not be around on Friday when you share the news of Mango's hopefully no longer present murmur. Brutus and I will be thinking of you.


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## Judy A

Prayers for Mango....Izzy and I pray for good outcome..


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## Rita

We hope Mango is home on Friday. Hang in there Freeway. :grouphug:


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## Beamer

One more day till we find out about Mango.. hope he does not need to go see a specialist... 

Thanks for all the kind and encouraging words!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Laurief

wE ARE ALL KEEPING OUR FINGERS CROSSED!!!!:cheer2:


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## whitBmom

Good vibes... Good vibes to the both of you - Good luck!!


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## dboudreau

Any news yet Ryan?


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## Beamer

*hmm*

I have absolutly no clue as to what is going on. I call and get no answer at both places. Still waiting to see whats going on.... hmmmmmmmmmmm


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## Laurief

I saw on my email that there was a post here. 
So as I opened it up I had my fingers crossed. But alas it was just another well wisher!!

So 
Ryan we are dying to know how Mango made out???!!!??!?!:biggrin1: 
Laurie


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## Laurief

Yikes, 
Ryan, you and I were posting at the same time! Keep calling, all of our thoughts and prayers are with Mango!!!
lAURIE


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## Rita

Keep us posted Freeway. Waiting is so hard and frustrating.


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## Beamer

I honestly have no idea what is going on. I have not heard anything from the breeders. Quite odd.....
:frusty:


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## Rita

Maybe they are away at a show or something. Breeders are always busy. I bet you will hear something tomorrow. We are sending good vibes to you.


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## Julie

They probably just have him at the doctor checking him out!Keep your chin upeace: .....I'm sure they'll get in touch with you soon!:biggrin1:


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## Beamer

Hi all..

Unfortunatly Mango still has his murmur.. he will be checked out at a specialist sometime in the next week...

In the meantime we are going to search for #2.

Thanks all................


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## dboudreau

Oh Ryan, I'm so sorry. :grouphug:


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## whitBmom

Awwww, Ryan I am so sorry to hear that. I am sure your pup is on its way to you - the timing was off a bit, but I do believe all will work out for the best. I know you must be dissappointed - I know that is how I would feel  Big hugs to you and know your pup is on its way


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## marjrc

freeway1976 said:


> Hi all..
> 
> Unfortunatly Mango still has his murmur.. he will be checked out at a specialist sometime in the next week...
> 
> In the meantime we are going to search for #2.
> 
> Thanks all................


Sorry to hear about the murmur, Ryan! 

I didn't understand your post to mean you won't be getting Mango though... I thought you were saying that since you have to wait a while before Mango is ready to fly to you, that you will start looking for your SECOND Hav.! No? I must be wrong, but I want to be sure.

Sorry for the mix-up!:suspicious:


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## juliav

Ryan,

I am so sorry to hear that Mango still has his heart murmur, how heartbreaking. I am also not sure if you are going to look for another puppy and still get Mango if he is cleared or just another puppy. I know it doesn't seem so now, but it's better that you found out before you got him then after. 

Please keep us posted.


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## Beamer

Hi guys..
We plan on looking for a second Hav right now.. then we will take mango once/if he is ready to come. We always planned on getting 2 to keep each other company, so just looks like it'll happen a bit earlier...

It'll work out i hope...

Just hope finding another one will be easy.. this has been VERY stressful for us..


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## Laurief

Ryan, Im so sad for you:sorry: It must be very hard falling in love, and then telling you to wai! Not being familiar with a murmer, what happens next? If the specialist says it is permanent, is there a prognosis? 
Will the breeder still sell him to you? I hope you are able to find a new pup real soon. I am a firm believer that things always work out for the best, so possibly getting another first so when Mango finally comes to his forever home, he wont be lonely & will have a furry friend to stay with him, since he will just be leaving furry friends. I know that whenLogan came home, he just cuddled up to sleep with hs sisters,cause he was used to having a pup to sleep with. 

We send you hugs & good thoughts!!:grouphug: Where are you looking for the new pup? 
Laurie


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## Havtahava

I'm sorry Ryan. This whole situation does sound like it has been very stressful. Mango is lucky that you are so committed to him anyway.


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## Julie

Sorry to hear Mango still has his heart murmur...maybe it'll just take a little longer to close,or if he will always have heart issues Ryan,maybe you are better off to let this little guy gnly you know that-or will in the future depending on how he turns out at the specialist.

Good luck on your search for havie2-------at elitehavanese(I know nothing about these people)but they had a couple black pups and a 6 mo.looking for a home.

take care Ryan and good luck on your search!:biggrin1:


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## Beamer

Hello All..

Very sad day here...

Turns out Mango did not have a heart murmur after all, but a defective heart valve or something. I'm not even sure. The specialist said he was born with it and probably should have died along time ago. He has been given 6 months to live................

He will live the rest of his days with his mother and sister... and the breeder...........

Pretty much all i can say at this time....... sucks.. watching him grow up for the last 12 weeks.  

I've been offered a replacement pup which is 4 weeks old and a spitting image of mango. (same father..different mother...) Not sure what to do.... its all to sad right now......

Beamer still needs a friend... but.. idont know what to do..

Ryan


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## radar_jones

Hey Buddy how's it going? I just read your message about Mango. I'm very sorry to hear the news. I can't imagine losing a loved one so young in life. I think you should take the replacement pup. I think it's a choice you have to make for yourself and all we can do here is give our opinion on what we would do. I remember when my Best Friends had a Shelty named "Robbie" May God Rest His soul. He had a tumour and had to be euthanized. Well his Family had no intentions of getting another replacement for him because there was only One Robbie you know. I would get the replacement and possibly name him Mango again but that's just me. It's always hard to do but the pain eventually fades, it's the memories that remain forever.

Take Care


Derek


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## havanesebyha

Ryan,

I am so sorry to hear the sad news about Mango ~ poor little dear. My heart really goes out to you and brings tears to my eyes. This news is very sad and I really don't know what to say, he's so young and he hasn't even gotten started. Give Beamer an extra hug and kiss and know in your heart you will always love Mango as well.

Libby & Kohana


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## Judy A

So sorry to hear about Mango.....my thoughts are with you and I pray that Mango doesn't suffer.


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## Greg

I'm sorry to hear about Mango. My suggestion is to get your money back and find another breeder. Take something from a different gene pool. I know you don't want to hear this and I'm sure it will make some angry. But I think it's the best advice I can give you.


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## mckennasedona

Ryan,
I'm so sorry to hear about Mango. It's so sad. Our heartfelt condolences go out to you. Give Beamer lots of hugs and let him comfort you. 

Susan


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## Brady's mom

Ryan,
I am so sad for you and Mango. Hopefully he can be kept happy and comfortable with his family. Give Beamer lots of hugs and kisses. Nothing can make it better, but hugs and kisses from Beamer should help a little.


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## Thumper

I'm so sorry  that is horrible! Our condolences. It feels like we all have watched Mango grow up over the last few months, but I know it has to hurt terribly as he has a very special place in your heart.

Hugs,
Kara


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## ama0722

Oh this is so sad and I really feel for you when you fall in love with that little puppy face. Make sure everyone gives their havanese extra hugs and kisses tonight. 

As for the other puppy, I would probably wait. I think it is easiest to have one totally potty trained before adding another. Also I have heard that if dogs grow up together, they are more bonded to each other than the human family members. 

Just some of my thoughts.

Amanda


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## Cheryl

Ryan I am sorry to hear about Mango. My heart goes out to you and your family.


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## marjrc

Oh no! Ryan, how sad.  Like Kara said, I also feel like we got to know Mango over the past several weeks and it's sad that he won't be joining you and Beamer after all.

I am happy to hear, however, that he'll be staying on at the breeders with his family and will no doubt be loved and cared for until the end. 

((hugs)) to you and the family


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## Julie

Ryan,
I'm sorry to hear this news about your Mango.I am sure it just broke your heart.....
Thank goodness though you found out before he made a flight and home to your house.He is in the best hands for now---his mom's and breeders.Give Beamer an extra lot of attention and give it some thought as to what is best for you and your family...Perhaps if you waited awhile till Beamer was older and housebroke etc. he could help a new puppy adjust and "show him the ropes"


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## juliav

Oh Ryan,

I am so sorry to hear about little Mango, how heart braking. The good thing 9even though it may not seem so) is that you found out his heart condition before you got him home and Mango is with he mom and breeder and it is the best possible situation for you and for him.

About the second puppy, I say wait and get it from a different breeder. I had a really bad experience with replacement puppy. My hubby and I got a very beautiful shepherd puppy years ago who was diagnosed with bilateral hip dysplasia (supposedly from tested parents) and against my wishes my hubby got a replacement pup from the same breeder. And guess what, he was also diagnosed with bilater hip and also elbow dysplasia at 4 month, was quite sickly and only lived to be 3 1/2 years old. It was heart breaking and I've learned a hard lesson. Just my 0.02 cents.

Best,


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## sky

Oh, how sad! I really feel for you and for Mango. I am so sorry.

Sky


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## SMARTY

Ryan, I am so sorry for you and the breeder of Mango. I know all of you are very upset. It would be very hard to love a puppy for 12 weeks then find out the bad news. Keep looking and you will find another puupy that steals your heart and will be a new buddy for Beamer.


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## irnfit

I am all teared up reading about poor little Mango. I am so sorry.  We all got to know and love Mango thru you.


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## good buddy

Ryan, That's awful news and I'm so sorry for you and for Mango. He'll be in the best hands with his mother and the breeder. It must have benn in the stars for you to find little Beamer to love and help get you through this sad time. If I were you I would politely turn down the offer of a replacement at this time. You need time to heal and love your Beamer boy. I too think they bond tighter to each other if you get them at the same time. Get Beamer all trained up and them let him train a new buddy later! :hug:


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## Janet Zee

So sorry to hear the bad news, poor little Mango. Wish I could find the right words to comfort you at such a sad time. Just know there will be another puppy for you to give you years and years of joy.

I agree you should go to a different breeder when you are ready.

Janet


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## Cosmosmom

So sorry to hear the news about Mango .. I know you were hoping he would be able to come and live with you soon .. 
My heart aches for you as well .
It is a sad time for you I am sure . It is best he stay with the breeder and lives his life out to the best of his ability with her support .. 
It will take time but I am sure you will be able to open your heart to another dog in the near future .. 
Take care - the best thing for you now is to deal with this disappointmeent and feeling of loss ..


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## whitBmom

Ryan, I am so sorry to hear this - it is such a shame and so sad  Maybe for the time being focus on Beamer, as others have suggested and get him all bonded and trained with you. To prevent any further heartache you might want to search out a different breeder - give yourself the time to heal, and you will see how your new one will be with you soon enough.


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## Doggie Nut

Ryan, I add my heartfelt wishes along with everyone else today. This has been an emotional week here on the forum with Trish having to put down her beloved pet and now this sad news about Mango. He is such a sweet little fellow....makes me a little weepy. You'll find #2 soon. Beamer needs a buddy!


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## MaddiesMom

Ryan- That's heartbreaking news about Mango. I felt like we already knew the little guy through your posts. I'm sure you're very distraught over this, but little Beamer will help to lift your spirits I'm sure. Its only my opinion, but I would go to a different breeder also for my next pup. It would be difficult to tell if this came through the mother or the father, or if it is genetic. I just wouldn't want to risk the heartbreak. But that's just me. Beamer is a darling dog, and you can take some time to concentrate just on him until you decide. I'm sure he'll help you through this difficult time.


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## Beamer

Thanks everyone for your support during this time. I know I have never eevn met Mango before, but its so hard because of all the email stories about him and all the pictures I have been sent for the past 12 wks..

The other puppy is 4 weeks old in a couple days. She he would still be atleast 6 weeks away if I chose to take him. Again, the father is Pan and the mother would be a relative of mangos mom. (i think)..

Do these sorts of things happen all the time? Do breeders just keep quiet about it? Or was this just a one in amillion thing?


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## juscha

I'm sorry to hear about Mango. Big hugs to you and your family. He will have a good time of the little life he'll have. I hope you find another puppy soon, if you're not taken the little relative of Mango.


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## TnTWalter

*So very sorry...*

Poor lil Mango.

Trish


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## Laurief

I am not sure that this happens a lot, but would def. see if you can get more info. from the breeder about their past litters. I know people are saying run, and find a different breeder, but I wonder ... if they were a bad breeder, why would they take Mango to so many specialists, and agree to keep him with his Mom for the rest of his life....why would they offer you a new one??/ I just feel that just like kids, not all sick dogs come from bad breeders or lines. All our human children have problems, and we still have more -- I have such mixed feelings about that!! 
If you decide to not take the pup, what will you tell the breeder>?
If you decide TO take the pup, Beamer will be 1 1/2 months older - hopefully trained pretty well by then.
Keep us up to date as to what is going on. 
Laurie


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## Honey Poney's

Laurief said:


> I am not sure that this happens a lot, but would def. see if you can get more info. from the breeder about their past litters. I know people are saying run, and find a different breeder, but I wonder ... if they were a bad breeder, why would they take Mango to so many specialists, and agree to keep him with his Mom for the rest of his life....why would they offer you a new one??/ I just feel that just like kids, not all sick dogs come from bad breeders or lines. All our human children have problems, and we still have more -- I have such mixed feelings about that!!
> If you decide to not take the pup, what will you tell the breeder>?
> If you decide TO take the pup, Beamer will be 1 1/2 months older - hopefully trained pretty well by then.
> Keep us up to date as to what is going on.
> Laurie


That's a nice and honest thing to say.
I don't know the breeder and don't know much about the situation but by reading the different post its like immediately it's the breeders fault and that it is a bad breeder. 
It might be possible, don't know him but it is not because there is a problem with a puppy that it immediately is a bad breeder.

Can you please have a look at all the people around you. We are all different.
Take a family with many children, they are all different. They don't look exactly the same as their mother or father. But when you breed Havanese (or other dogs) everybody wants them to look exactly like their Champion mother or father.

Nature still decides a lot of things. Why do some people get cancer and other not. My mother died of a brain tumour. Does this means that it would be better not to have children my self ?

Just trying to explain that everything is not black or white. Breeding is not that simple.

Bye
Christine


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## dboudreau

Ryan, very sorry to hear the news about Mango. :grouphug: I too would not automatically assume you have a "Bad" breeder. Like Laurie sad a bad breeder would not be spending all of her money on specialist etc. A "Bad breeder" would have sold you the pup with no regard to its health. Do what ever your heart tells you to do. If that is getting a replacement then that is what you should do. If not, that is your choice too. Only you know what is the right thing to do.:hug:


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## Doggie Nut

Amen Laurie, Christine & Deb.....we're on the same page!:amen: :amen: :amen: Can't do the broad brush technique.....it never works!


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## whitBmom

You ladies are right, and I digress. Ryan, do what you feel is the right thing to do in your heart and you will see that all will work out in the end. I guess the whole debaucle got me all tied in knots, but the fact of the matter is, is that there ARE very good Havanese breeders out there that do care. And the point that a bad breeder would have kept quiet and sold you the pup anyway, is true - your breeder did exactly the opposite. Sorry if I upset anyone here - god knows I don't want to go there again - we have been through enough already.


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## Doggie Nut

Helen, I just got in on the "tailend" of this thread so I didn't even know you had expressed a different opinion....but then that's what make this so great....everyone is different with different view points! I think the problem is when people aren't as humble, honest & open to say they were wrong or that they would be willing to even consider a different viewpoint! Cheers to you Helen!:clap2: :hug: :cheer2:


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## Laurief

Helen, dont get me wrong, cause I can see both sides of the situation. When I first heard the news about Mango my first thought was to lead with my heart & not my head. But there is a chance that this breeder could be breeding a "bad line" and it would be important for Ryan to investigaye a little more before making a decision - but I also feel that so many on this forum have had bad experiences with bad breeders, or sick pups that sometimes we are quick to just say walk away! It just seemed to me that in all of Ryans posts, that the breeder seemed to be taking responsibility for this issue, and doing what she could to correct it! I think when you are spending that kind of money we need to back off from what our hearts are telling us and listen to our heads. Lets all hope that Ryan finds the perfect sibling for Beamer, no matter where he goes!!
 
laurie


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## Cosmosmom

I know it is a difficult time for Ryan as his expectations were not met and he does not have the dog Mango he wanted and was waiting for .
I do not know who the breeder was but it seems to be she was quite conscientious and forthcoming about his health issues . She even agreed to keep the litttle guy and allow him to leave out his life expectation however brief it may be .. I am not so sure other breeders would have made this decision . It will require additional veterinary care and cost in the future .. 
The mumur or floppy valve would have been detected eventually so she took the path of less resistance and told the truth from the beginning .
I do not know if this the breeders fault - these things happen in life even to babies . It was a unfortunate event .. 
As to waht to do - one has to do what one feels comfortable doing switching or staying - however I am sure the breeeder will be understanding and supportive as she seeems to have been this way from the beginning ..


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## whitBmom

Laurie, you and others have made very valid points that should be considered. This breeder is clearly being honest and has the best intentions for all her pups. I agree, that some here have experienced some heartache, but we do have look at things logically and review the facts. That's what I love about this forum, we get a good perspective on things with so many viewpoints.
Ryan, we are here for you and your wife whenever you need support.


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## Julie

Julie said:


> Ryan,
> I'm sorry to hear this news about your Mango.I am sure it just broke your heart.....
> Thank goodness though you found out before he made a flight and home to your house.He is in the best hands for now---his mom's and breeders.Give Beamer an extra lot of attention and give it some thought as to what is best for you and your family...Perhaps if you waited awhile till Beamer was older and housebroke etc. he could help a new puppy adjust and "show him the ropes"


For the record.........I did not tell Ryan to find a different breeder...I think it should be his decision as to what he and his family are comfortable with.:biggrin1:


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## whitBmom

eace: eace: eace:


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## MaddiesMom

I also would never want to imply that just because a puppy is born with a defect that the breeder is "bad". In my opinion, only breeders who *knowingly* breed parents that are known to produce serious defects are not reputable breeders. Ryan's breeder seems to be doing everything a reputable breeder should do. All they can do is health test the parents. But cardiac problems do seem to be in some Havanese dogs according to HCA. I'm not sure of the percentage of dog that actually have this, though. Most breeders try so hard to do what's best for their dogs and new owners. For me, I would probably be a little nervous having one of the parents being the same as Mango's, although there is absolutely no guarantee its genetic or from that parent even if it is. Its just a matter of "do I want to take the chance?" I certainly am not unbiased having suffered the heartbreak of losing a Havanese due to poor health, so I will willingly admit I'm not the best to judge. But I did want to say that having a puppy with a defect in your litter does not make one a "bad breeder". That would be totally unfair.

Ryan, I too would talk to your breeder and find out the breeding history of these parents or at least the common parent of Mango and your new possible pup. Whatever your choice, I'm sure that soon you'll have a new little brother for Beamer to make you smile.


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## Beamer

*poor mango*

I'm not 100% sure yet if I'll be taking the mango look alike yet. I want to.....

I do trust her (the breeder).. I just have had some bad luck with her... It just happened that I was the unlucky one.

Pan is the father of Mango and the look alike. Different mothers though.
Both Pan and the mom have passed all tests. This was just an very unfortunate thing that happend.

hmmmmmmmmmmm


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## Julie

Ryan,
This has got to be really hard for you.......I don't envy you with making this decision........whatever it is........just know,it'll be right for you!:becky:


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## MaddiesMom

Ryan, I think I read somewhere that "Pan" is supposed to be one of the Havanese that got some award for health or something? I'm just a pet owner and not a breeder, but I just remember that name as being really well known in the Havanese world. If he's the only common parent, then he should have a really good history of producing healthy pups, right? Maybe some of the breeders here can help you. They know more about these things than we do. I'm sure they don't want to sway you one way or another, but maybe they can give you some facts. Maybe you could have some extra tests done on the new pup before adopting him to make sure he's healthy. There are no guarantees in life, but maybe that would ease your mind?


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## Beamer

Hi Jeanne,

I agree with what your saying.. for sure.. And yeah, Pan is that 'famous' hav..lol.. pimped out all over the world..lol.

After reading that '2 different breeds' thread, I'm not sure about trusting all breeders?? Some people eluded to the fact that many breeders cover up health problems in puppies/adults? Pretty sure I read that...

I dont know what to belive any more!!!!!!!!


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## Laurief

Ryan, I think if you know the lineage & are sure that the parents have passed health testing (you could always ask to see the paperwork) - I am sure that the breeder would understand why and not be insulted. Then you just have to go with your gut!! If she refuses to show you the testing, then you might want to question why not. If she does, then you have written proof and can make a good decision. I am sure this is tearing you guys up inside trying to make this decision. Wish we could help more!!
Laurie


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## KristinFusco

I am so sorry to hear about Mango! I know you were so excited to bring the pup home. I feel terrible for you. But I think it sounds really encouraging that your breeder is standing behind their pup and that both parents are health tested. Sometimes, even with the healthiest parents, one pup can have a health problem. The breeder sounds like they are doing everything they can to protect both you and the puppy. Like other people said, an irrreputable breeder would have not told you any of this and just let you take the puppy home unaware that it had a problem. Whatever you feel is right is what you should do. 
So sorry!!!


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## Julie

Ryan,
I certainly would not worry about Pan........he was in the top health ranking or something(in a mag?in the diff breed thread)and the top hav in the us 2001 and 2002......top producer etc...he is impressive and Quincy's grandpa!I'd only be concerned about the chosen mother.......If she is health tested etc.I wouldn't hestitate......if you are moving forward on another dog right now.:biggrin1:


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## Beamer

*Hmm*

I'm pretty sure the mother is all tested and passed everything. I'll have to confirm 100% though.

I belive before Pans owners 'stud' him out, they require to see all health documents of the female dog, prior to the 'act'.. lol


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## Laurief

Ryan, well that is good news, and too funny to think about!!! I guess now you guys will have a decision to make. Keep us up to date. 
Laurie


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## Havtahava

Ryan, I just got back home and saw this thread. I'm very sorry to read about Mango.

Funny timing though - Pan's owner just posted on another list about the high rate of cardiac problems that they found in a recent health clinic that she hosted. She posted a very strong encouragement that breeders get cardiac testing done on their dogs before breeding. Definitely make sure that both parents have passed their cardiac testing (not just had it done) on your future puppy. That doesn't guarantee anything, but it will help eliminate some of the obvious possibilities.

Again, I'm very sorry for your loss of Mango. Even though he never came to live with you, it's still a huge loss in your heart.


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