# Grooming Help!



## vfeldman (Jan 26, 2007)

I was hoping to get some grooming tips from those showing in conformation. I know that the hair is supposed to be "natural" and fall over the eyes....however the last judge (in our first show) said '
"I know there are some eyes in here somewhere!" I am not sure what products to use; I don't want to break any of her hair, yet not being able to see her face at all I think detracts from her cute expression. Of course we are still fighting the whole grooming thing anyway. I do try and put it up with little bands/clips to train the hair to go back some, but when you look at Havanese pictures in conformation or shows, you can definitely see eyes! and faces! Any great tips out there?????

Vicki:frusty:


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Thats because people are never honest as to how they get the hair back in shows. Thats the reality. Most use some hairspray or they tease it or do something else. Everyone has the tricks, and no one talks because they are supposed to be shown all natural. Judges want to see eyes, and they want to see the expression, so people do what they do. As long as those dogs keep winning then nothing will change. I dont have a big hang up on it, I love seeing my guys eyes too. 

I know that did nothing to help you, but it might explain why you are frustrated. Many owner/handlers go through this when competing with handlers who do whatever it takes. 

  eace:


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Vicki, a lot of judges say that kind of thing in the ring (small talk), but did he actually say that was a reason to not award her the win? You might want to start asking the judge after showing what he liked and didn't like in Jazz. 

I had the opposite problem happen. I had Tinky in the ring and she should have obviously taken the Breed, but the judge gave it to another dog that I didn't think should win (and I'm not a poor loser either). I asked her afterwards and she said that she didn't have the correct hair on the head for a Havanese and she quoted from the standard how the hair should naturally fall to the side or over the eyes. Tinky's hair was blow-dried back and I had combed it back in the ring a few times to show her eyes.

Also, it is harder to keep the hair back on a puppy. Martha's hair naturally falls straight down over her face (more than Jazz's does if you can believe it), but now that she is an adult and has long head hair, I can swipe it back with a comb or even my hand and it will stay back until she shakes it.

If you want to train it back, the blow dryer helps a lot. You can use hair bands during the week, but you risk breakage, especially if Jazz gets involved in rough play with your other two, who may try to bite the band(s) out of her hair.


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## vfeldman (Jan 26, 2007)

Thanks for the advice from both of you and yes I am worried about the band breaking....her hair is so fine....this judge was so busy with the next group that I didn't have an opportunity to ask...the day before I did and the judge said he couldn't remember one dog to the next after the moment passed! Lots of help he was! When I go to regional show in Virginia, I know I'll get some input. I will try and work with her hair after I bathe her....how often is enough?


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

At home, you can always put some mousse or gel in it before you blow dry it to help train it in the way you want it to go. Just watch the condition of her hair so that you don't dry it out. Also, keep the dryer on warm (not hot) to help set it.


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Thats actually good to hear Kimberly, about the judge. 

And I agree with you, I had told Vicki before that the judges always would make comments about them being in their somewhere on the table. Its most likely small talk. 

When I was grooming Stogie myself (gasp) I was told a couple of times ( not by a judge) his hair flying all over the place was prob one reason he didnt win. Obviously they didn't recognize the sexy in it. hehe.


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## JodiM (Dec 28, 2006)

I was recently told to either spray hairspray in it, and then brush it out before walking into the ring... or use some plush puppy sit n stay in it, and again, brush it before going into the ring.

I did order some of both, and figured I could use them at home, because Princess hates having her hair in her eyes. (and we thunk into things all the time) I doubt I will use them before a show though, because that kind of goes against the whole show natural. 

On a side note, do the bristle type brushes (plush puppy 1/2 & 1/2) help with the curly crinkly type hair? We seem to have 2 types of coat on 1 dog.. lol


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## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

This may open a whole can of worms, but I think dogs that are being show are over groomed. If you look at the pictures or shows on TV, they do not look "natural". 

The Havanese Fanciers of Canada have sent out letters and have advertised in Magazine like "Our Havanese" Page 4 of the Mar-Apr. Asking to respect the breed standard and not over groom. As the ad says " A clean coat, thoroughly brushed and combed is all he needs. Let the natural beauty of his wavy untrimmed coat speak for itself."

This is the way that I show Sam and he has 3pt toward his Canadian Championship. The picture in my signature is from his last win. It is up to us to keep this breed "Natural" by showing that way.

I'll get off my soap box now.


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## vfeldman (Jan 26, 2007)

I like your soap box! I tried to put some gel/mousse (people kind) in before her first showing and put it up in 2 tiny rubber bands (for dogs) and when I took them out, she looked like she had 2 spikes! Yikes! I quickly brushed it out, but know she could look a little better. I love how Kimberly's picture of Hillary who has the same parents as Jazz gets it to go somewhat to the side so at least you see that the dog DOES have some eyes. I am going to play around with it; I must confess I haven't blown dry her face because she wiggles so much, so I just gave up! Whew! If at first you don't succeed.....

I don't know about the grooming stuff. I hope to get an education at Nationals!


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

JodiM said:


> I was recently told to either spray hairspray in it, and then brush it out before walking into the ring... or use some plush puppy sit n stay in it, and again, brush it before going into the ring.
> 
> I did order some of both, and figured I could use them at home, because Princess hates having her hair in her eyes. (and we thunk into things all the time) I doubt I will use them before a show though, because that kind of goes against the whole show natural.
> 
> On a side note, do the bristle type brushes (plush puppy 1/2 & 1/2) help with the curly crinkly type hair? We seem to have 2 types of coat on 1 dog.. lol


Check and see if Destiny's Maximillion is in your pedigree. He's famous for giving crappy hair from the middle of the back to the rump.

Plus different colors have different textures.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

vfeldman said:


> I like your soap box! I tried to put some gel/mousse (people kind) in before her first showing and put it up in 2 tiny rubber bands (for dogs) and when I took them out, she looked like she had 2 spikes! Yikes! I quickly brushed it out, but know she could look a little better. I love how Kimberly's picture of Hillary who has the same parents as Jazz gets it to go somewhat to the side so at least you see that the dog DOES have some eyes. I am going to play around with it; I must confess I haven't blown dry her face because she wiggles so much, so I just gave up! Whew! If at first you don't succeed.....
> 
> I don't know about the grooming stuff. I hope to get an education at Nationals!


Vicki

The hair over her eyes isn't going to affect her ability to get points. That said, some judges need help seeing thsoe almond eyes. The AKC forbids any foreign substance. That doesn't mean you can't iron a coat. Nor does it mean you can't blow it dry with some nice conditioner. Don't get caught with gunk on her face. It isn't worth it.

Call me and I'll give you some tips I won't write.

<grin>


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## JodiM (Dec 28, 2006)

No, Princess doesn't have any Destiny lines, but Jewels does (although~ so far her coat is gorgeous)

It's more in the black areas that she has the wavyish hair, the white parts are gorgeous.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

check out Max. Funny how he looks like Princess in many ways.

http://www.havanesegallery.hu/show_dog_en.php?id=3531


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## JodiM (Dec 28, 2006)

She does favor him a lot... but his white hair is very wirey (sp?) and hers is not.
That and she is much cuter 

Here is a quickie picture of Princess so you can see what I mean about her hair being kinky on the black parts. She really needs a bath, so excuse the coat.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

she's aptly named. What a lovely dog. The black fur usually has a different consistency


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## JodiM (Dec 28, 2006)

Thanks, I'm beginning to think we should have named her spoiled brat though. 

I knew that different colors could be a different consistency (thanks to someone here!) ~ but I wasn't sure if using a brush that is 1/2 bristle - 1/2 pin brush would help that.


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## juscha (May 24, 2007)

I use wella kolestral to give the hair over the eyes a little bit of stability. That's normally a conditioner but if you take only a little bit on your fingertops and groom it into the hair, it will hold better. Then I tease the hair directly over the eyes and a lot under the hair that will fall/lay over the eye.In order to tease I use a lousecomb, I only do that for a show and not in real life, it would damage the hair in the long run... Good Luck!


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

That's a great tip, Katja. I have seen cholesterol sold at dog shows (I think it does say Kolesterol on the jar), but I wouldn't have thought of that. I should give it a try at home sometime to see how it works.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

I am wondering how you show handlers/breeders keep you havs beard so white? Oreo's is somewhat, yellowy brown. and Oreo has a rusty brown colour in between his eyes. Can this ever go away? How do you keep your lighter havanese looking so squeaky clean? I need ideas please.


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## juscha (May 24, 2007)

you can try to clean it every day with a stain remover, but Banzei has stains under the eye that won't really go away. I can only try that it won't get really bad. Sometimes it helps to use a whitening shampoo. If you take a little bit of babypowder, the area will dry better and the bacteria can't get into the hair, I also use a little bit of Penaten creme that the tears cannot attack the hair... it's really hard work ;-)


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Helen, I still have to deal with some light eye staining on my white Hav, but if you keep it dry (which is a lot of attention to cleaning it several times a day), then you can almost eliminate it.

For mouth staining, I moved to drip water bottles instead of bowls and it is made a vast improvement to white mouths.


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## JodiM (Dec 28, 2006)

I've heard Vaseline in the corner of the eyes work wonders. I'm going to try it on Jewels as soon as I get to the store to buy some.

Wella used to be sold at Sally's Beauty Supply. That might be closer/easier for those of you wanting to try that. (Think I'm going to get some of that too)


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Thank you for your suggestions - I will have to be more dilligent. Drip bottles, are a great idea, I always find myself towelling Oreo's beard off and then wiping up the drops of water from the floor after every drink - sometimes its puddles!!. Thank you I will look into that 

Penaten cream, I never really thought of that. I have a toddler here at home and we sometimes use that on her. Does that help fight the bacteria? I have a bottle of Diamond Eye - do any of you have any reviews on that product? I add water to Oreo's kibble, but considering the bacteria that could be lurking in his beard, I will begin to wean him off of the wet kibble. Thank you for your suggestions, as challenging as it may be, a nice clean white beard and clear eyes are really worth it


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## juscha (May 24, 2007)

I heard that a little bit of natron in the drinking water helps with stained bearts but I never tried it myself since we don't have the problem.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Helen, I used Diamond Eyes on my two first Havs with no improvement at all. It seemed like I was using water on them. Maybe you will have good results. If you already have it, it is worth a try. The main thing is to keep the area clean and dry.

Katja, I've never heard of natron. I wonder if we have it by a different name here.

At any rate, the water bottles have improved my two girls with white faces. Both Tinky and Martha have white hair now. No more licking their faces to get the water off.


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## juscha (May 24, 2007)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natron

here is a link explaining what natron is! Maybe you call it sth else in everyday life?


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Oh, OK! We call it baking soda! Thanks for the link to the article.


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## LuvMyHavanese (Apr 13, 2007)

Kimberly, where do you get those drip water bottles? I have looked all over & can only find small ones(like for rabbits). Tripp just about drowns his face & consumes so much water at one time that he gags. I heard those bottles really help. Thanks


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

You can find the large bottles at most larger pet stores here (Petsmart & PetCo), but they all seem to have a small nozzle like rabbits use. The wider nozzle was really hard to find, but our PetCo is now carrying them for $19.99 - yikes. I found a couple of vendors online. Look for "Lixit" brand when you search. I have to run for a little bit, but I'll come back and look. You can hit Google with "Lixit" and "dogs" and probably find quite a few sites that sell them.


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## LuvMyHavanese (Apr 13, 2007)

We only have Petsmart & a few smaller stores here but none carry the large bottle(like the picture in Diane Klumbs book-hers was in a stand). I will look again online. Thanks Kimberly


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Pet Smart carries the water bottles on line or they did. I always use them in my crates. Had not thought about for her house water.


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## LuvMyHavanese (Apr 13, 2007)

I have seen the ones that attach to crates. But i am looking for a stand alone version. I do find larger bottles but just havent seen a decent stand.
Thank you!!


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

OK, I found a few links:

This is the nozzle my dogs prefer (usually in blue or purple): quart or half gallon size It is about a half inch diameter, but we have several of the bottles with the red cap (smaller nozzle) which works just fine too. They drink from these when I don't have the blue/purple ones up or if they are empty.

Here is the 1/2 gallon size, which would be nicer than refilling it so often. (I have the quart size and have to refill it at least once a day.) 1/2 gallon size

Revival Animal Health seems to have the best prices, but I've never used them before and don't know about their shipping/handling fees.

Vicki, don't you just love how topics meander here? First it starts with "how do I keep her hair back" and migrates to water bottle pricing. :biggrin1:


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Shannon, there is a Shih Tzu breeder who often sells the stands on eBay for $60 or so. If you have someone handy near you, they are fairly simple to make from PVC parts for about $10. If you go to the National Specialty, there seems to always be some for sale or auction.


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## LuvMyHavanese (Apr 13, 2007)

Im sorry everyone! But when i saw a mention about water bottles, i HAD to ask. SORRY!! :focus:


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

I bet if we thought about it we could figure out a way to mount a water bottle with velcro to an area where the food is. I have never seen a stand alone bottle or stand.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Shannon, don't be sorry. I don't think I've seen a single thread stay on topic on this board.

Sandi, here's a unique stand on eBay: water bottle stand on eBay. and here is another unique version. The version I usually see looks more like this but with a flat base.

And just before I posted, I came across these decorative stands - interesting! These are the first stands that I've found that will accommodate the square bottles.


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Kimberly, those are alot prettier than my velco vision. I am going to check into those and check out her site a little more.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Sandi, if you're talking about that very last link with the decorative stands, they may not be available anymore. At the top of the page it said something about closeout items. If you want one, I hope you can get it. Maybe she'll even have one made for you.


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## LuvMyHavanese (Apr 13, 2007)

I saw those. Very pretty. She does have others that arent a closeout. I am just afraid Tripp with chew the wood!! Thanks Kimberly for looking that up!


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

You're welcome, Sandi. It is fun to see the different options out there.

(And you could always pick up a bottle of Bitter Apple Spray, too. LOL!)

Your enabler,
Kimberly :biggrin1:


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## vfeldman (Jan 26, 2007)

Wow, saw I had 40 posts on grooming.....should have known better, huh? Sometimes I feel like a voyeur and I need more exercise with all the sitting and checking out this site! We made a water bottle stand....going with the flow here.....Greg told us how and I will try and take a picture and up load it. I guess I should give credit to the hubby who actually made it. It is made with PVC pipe and wood. Jazz uses it all the time and Bear does sometimes and Diamond prefers the toilet! I tried to take away the water dishes, as Bear's drinking is a mess and she had bad staining.... I'll go take that picture!


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Just thought I'd ask, but does it make a difference what kind of bowl it is? Oreo eats and drinks out of a stainless steel bowl. He needs bigger ones, now that he eats and drinks pleny, but would that also help?


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Helen, I'm not sure what you are asking... do you mean to help staining? The problem with drinking out of a bowl is that they dunk their facial hair and it stays wet. My dogs would lick their faces to help try it (or rub it on the floor!! :frusty: ) and it would stain. Now that we've been using water bottles exclusively, my two white-faced Havs have clean, white hair.

Vicki, I'm looking forward to your picture.


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## vfeldman (Jan 26, 2007)

*water bottles*

here are a few pics...one with Jazz drinking....I think he also used a phlange for a toilet on the base; not quite sure, but Greg knows and I can ask Gary exactly what he used if you want more info....It is screwed onto a wooden base, so the floor doesn't get wet. By the way, one was auctioned off last year at Nationals...Ann Carille got it!

Vicki


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Wow, that is so interesting. I can see how that will eliminate the mess on the floor too 
Kimberly, sorry I should have been more specific, but I was wondering if metal bowls would also contribute to staining. I give Oreo Brita filtered water in that bowl, so I was wondering if I made the switch to ceramic bowls if that would make the difference. Until I can find a water bottle like that for Oreo here in Canada. The shipping rates is what kills me at times, as well as the cross-border surcharges.


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## LuvMyHavanese (Apr 13, 2007)

Wow Vicki, thats just what i am looking for! I will have to show my husband that. thanks


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

I got the bottle!! I thought I would try out Petsmart and there it was!! I bought it for $11.99 CDN. I got the 1 quart bottle with the blue lid. So for now, I have it leaned inside one of those cheap Ikea bathroom toilet paper holders. It looks funny, but at least it holds it up for Oreo.
At first Oreo was scared of it, he started by sticking his nose IN the valve - bad move. Then, after much encouragement he started with one lick, then another and another until eventually it clued in he could take a drink. I would say it took him about 5 mins to figure it all out. He took 2 drinks from it already all by himself. I was quite pleased that he wasn't all soaked afterward  Thank you for that suggestion.


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## traceyrives (Oct 12, 2006)

Has anybody ever heard of putting a little lemon juice in their water? Somebody told me the acid would bleach the hair around the mouth. My Havie has such a sensitive stomach, I'm scared to try it, but it does make sense.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Tracey, if you add anything to the water just make sure the dog is still consuming enough water to keep their body going. I had one dog that was drinking so little that she ended up having other medical problems. We didn't realize the problem until we ended up in emergency care while on a trip. She disliked the taste of what we had added to the water (cider vinegar in very small amounts, which is recommended by several people).


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## traceyrives (Oct 12, 2006)

Thanks Good to know


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## radar_jones (May 6, 2007)

I would think that the lemon would not serve the Hydrating Purposes in this hot weather. I can see it being good for them if it works with bleaching the hair around the mouth...I had no idea that the acid was that strong. It won't bleach it an off-white colour because of the yellow of the lemon will it??

Derek


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## traceyrives (Oct 12, 2006)

Good point. If anyone is brave enough to try it, let me know. Since we're showing, I got suckered into ordering the Crystal White shampoo.


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