# Murphy bit me! Help



## murphymoesmamma (Apr 1, 2009)

I was trying to cut a mat out of Murphy's coat, he snarled a warning but I really want to avoid having to take him to get shaved down so I proceeded to try to isolate the mat so I could cut it. He snarled again and in a wink bit me. I was stunned and reacted badly by smacking his nose. I am really concerned about this agressive behaviour and I have no idea how to handle it. I can't let him get away with biting but smacking his nose seems to me to cultivate more agression. Please help!


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## RikiDaisyDixie (Apr 15, 2008)

*I'm sorry....*

I would get a good trainer to help you work with him. This he cannot do. It does hurt, but he cannot bite.

A trainer has helped me very much with both of my dogs. I have hurt them in grooming them but they do not bite. I also give them treats after each "ouch" because I want them to know that I love them...

I know you love him. A friend let her havanese do this and when he goes to the groomer he must be muzzled and this he really hates. She cannot trust him with kids. It would be easier to work with a trainer or behavior specialist who uses non aversive methods.

Good luck.
Linda


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Holly, I totally understand why you reacted the way you did. Totally unexpected and it probably hurt. Jasper bit me when he was just over a year.. I too didn't heed the warning, in his case he was totally focused and crazed at the mail coming through the slot. I tried to hold him down and settle him as one last letter dropped and bang! he bit my wrist. I think I pushed him away hard as I screamed. We were both sad for days...I felt I was betrayed and I felt I let him down by not training him well enough. 

I am sure others will have great advice, but my recommendation is to start making Murphy work for everything...dinner, sit. Cuddles, paw. treat, sit, paw. roll over. By training you are asserting yourself as the dominant and provider of all that is good. Do a search on the forum NILF (nothing in life is free.) It has worked for some with some aggression issues. This has helped with Jasper in all other area's but the mail. we are still stumped on that one. But training is great way to both bond and show your dog who's in charge. 

Never let Murphy get away with a growl for any reason. Cash was quite a growler when he was younger. If he was on our bed and we went to move he would growl. We sternly said NO and held him down gently until his posture relaxed and then we put him in his crate. No more bed time. If he growled because we wanted to take a toy or chew, the Chew was taken away. Once growling was under control, We would sometime give the chew, toy right back. 

I hope other weigh in too. It really breaks your heart when they bite. and you worry about them and if they are around kids. I even hesitated to call my doctor for antibiotics because I though they would have to report a dog bite. But, if Murphy is a good dog you can turn this around.


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## murphymoesmamma (Apr 1, 2009)

Thank you Linda, I love Murphy to pieces and it broke my heart to have him bite me. My husband and I think that maybe a groomer hurt him and he is responding to that memory. He just turned a year old last month and has only been professionally groomed 4times. I have two young grandchildren who just love Murphy and Murphy loves them and is always gentle with them. I haven't seen signs of agression other than when we are fooling with a mat. He is fine when I brush him and when I give him his Sunday bath.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Holly, if it is just grooming thing, you still need to teach him NO, but also... Have you tried some of the great tools mentioned on here. The CC #11 stagger tooth comb really helped me with Jasper's matts.


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

I've also had good luck using Coat Handlers spray on the mat before I start working on it.


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## LuvCicero (Mar 31, 2008)

Holly, It really could be that a groomer hurt him. I have a friend that had the sweetest dog, 5 years old, and the groomer cut him. He bite the groomer and she called and wanted him picked up. When my friend got there she said he was 1/2 done and had poop all over him. The groomer said she never wanted to see him again. My friend had to give a bath the minute she got home and the dog has had to be muzzled ever since for any grooming. My Pom was always so good about me cutting her nails...until my vet did it one day and cut the quick. She yapped and cried and he got the bleeding stopped....but she would never let anyone touch her feet and the vet had to muzzle her to cut her nails after that incident. I don't think they forget. 

I would give treats and work with him gently some each day on brushing to try to let him know it's not going to hurt. Like Missy, I think the NILF is a great way to train. I know it hurts you for him to act this way and hopefully it will only be at grooming time and he will learn it's not going to hurt with lots of treats.
(((hugs)))


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## murphymoesmamma (Apr 1, 2009)

Thank you to all who responded. Murphy does work for treats. He sits, gets a treat, shakes, gets a treat, high five gets a treat, and up gets a treat. I sometimes hand feed him so he knows that it is ok for me to handle his food. I brush him regularly and he doesn't mind that at all. Hopefully this is an isolated incident!!!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Holly ,what is her reaction generally when you groom her.? In this case she could have had a bad experience from a prior grooming. You can't blame her. Tapping her nose will only give her a negative perception of grooming. It is very important to condition puppies from day one to handling and grooming. Here is an article about it. http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/handling-and-gentling But what you failed to do was heed the growl. Please do NOT reprimand her for growling. It is her warning system. When a dog growls you have to ease off and find out what is making them growl . In this case it was obvious, she was being hurt. But the biggest thing is to condition her to being groomed. Make it pleasant as possible slow down, if necessary and good ole treat breaks. I pay three times the normal price when we do take Molly occassionally for grooming because I know the groomer is very gentle. A rough groomer can totally screw a dog up,not just to grooming but in general terms. I will add to this with a GROWLING article in a minute. Here is an article about growling (a good thing) http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/why-growl-good I always like our presidents view about growling... "trying to stop growling is like taking the batteries out of your smoke detector."


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

I have learned from reading on the forum to listen to the growling as a warning.

My sweet little Missy only growls at me after a butt bath and I am drying her bottom, but Casper is something else...he growls at me sometimes for grooming and correcting him. 

He did try to bite me once after he got neutered and I was unbuttoning that onesie he had on, in his sore area. I really couldn't blame him, but he did get corrected, can't bite....not exceptable.


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## Annie Clark (Nov 6, 2008)

I agree about the importance of finding the right groomer! We went through a few and now have such a gentle and lovely young woman at a PETCO (and she listens when I don't want her 'bangs' cut). I thought the private places with experienced groomers would be the best but one cut her quicks and Nala nipped and they were very cross with me. Now I take Nala to the vet for nails so she doesn't associate nail cutting pain with the grooming experience. (Nala was very aversive to nail cutting-I don't think her previous home cut them often, or at all) It used to take a muzzle and three people. Now I can hold her and they can cut them.

Sounds to me like it was an isolated incident and I am glad he is good with kids!

Annie


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

I agree that growls shouldn't be ignored and it always depends on 'why' is the dog growling. In this case, Murphy was hurt from the tugging on the mat so it made sense for him to show his displeasure. I dont' stop grooming them if they complain or move away, but I stop for a couple of seconds, tell them 'it's o.k.' and move on. In the end, if I want/need to groom them, then they will get groomed, but I always acknowledge any signs of discomfort or pain. 

Holly, smacking on the nose is a normal spontaneous reaction to you having got bit. I would have yelled and maybe smacked too! Don't make a big deal of it. Keep grooming in a no-nonsense but gentle way and praise every time it goes well, like Dale said. It sounds like Murphy is a non-aggressive dog and you are doing all the right things with treating, using your hands, etc.... Don't worry.


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## murphymoesmamma (Apr 1, 2009)

Thank you Marj. Murphy is my best little buddy and we do almost everything together. The weird thing about him biting me is that I hadn't even started to cut the mat or even pulled at it. I bathed him last evening and I brushed him for about 45 minutes with breaks and he was great for me even when I pulled a tangle. He doesn't mind being brushed. He has had weekly baths since he was 8 weeks old so he is very used to both bath time and brushing time. 

He got a fidorido yesterday and when I reached across him to fasten the other tether he growled at me. I think that he expected me to go after a mat. I left that side untethered until I got in the car and didn't have to reach across him, and I told him very softly what a good boy he is and then I was able to fasten the tether with no incident. I have to admit that I am a bit leery of him now that I don't know what to expect from him. Last night when I went to pick him up to go to bed he growled at me again. I left him lay there and started back to bed but he ran from me when I tried to pick him up so I left him in the kitchen until he started to whine for me. At that point he was very receptive to being picked up and taken back to bed. This behavior really has me concerned but I will always heed the growling warn from him and move away. My greatest concern now is that Murphy needs to be groomed. I keep him in a shorter cut but I am terrified of taking him to a groomer. If he bites me I am sure he will bite them as well and even if he didn't I have no way of knowing if they are hurting him and may make him even more agressive. I am heartbroken and feel like a failure.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Holly, could Murphy have a pain there in the area the matt was, and where the harness clips? if it also where you pick him up under his arms? perhaps try gently stroking him all over and gently go to that area...see if he lifts his head towards you or tenses or growls...that could indicate that something hurts in that place. It may not be you...it could be he hurts.


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

Missy, that is just what I was wondering about. I had a shih tzu for years that didn't care for kids but was always a lamb with me. One day out of the blue, he bit me as I was petting him. Turned out he had an abscessed tooth on that side of his jaw, so it hurt when I stroked his face. And yes....I was so stunned, I screamed and popped his nose without thinking. Then I felt horrid after we figured out there was a problem.


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## murphymoesmamma (Apr 1, 2009)

Murphy is very used to me handling him. He will let me carry him around for a very long time. He was at an estate sale with me last week and I carried him for over an hour. I bathed him and brushed him last evening and there were no signs of pain or markings on his skin. He doesn't appear to be in pain. He still loves to greet my customers but I am now terribly worried that he may bite someone. We just got back from lunch and as I reached to untether him he growled and nipped at me, this is the second time since he got his new seat yesterday. I just can't believe this is happening. Having Murphy in my life has brought me indescribable joy but now I am saddened to know that he has developed an agressive streak. I just don't understand it. I can't go out of the room without him following me, he always wants to be near me. That hasn't changed but he is like a totally different dog at times. Last week I would have bet any amount of money that there wasn't a mean bone in his body and now he is biting. He hasn't been alone with anyone, and I haven't had him groomed for months so it's like overnight he went from sweet little Murphy to a dog that is unpredictable. I am devastated and just hope that with patience he gets over it.


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

Holly, this definitely sounds like there may be something physically wrong with Murphy. Might be worth a visit to the vet just to check it out?


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

Holly I'm so sorry to hear this...I also wonder about something physical. Maybe a trip to the vet would ease your mind...


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

I may be a worry wart or overly protective, but I really believe that any time there is a big change in behavior like this, even if it is just intermittent, a visit to the vet is warranted. If it was a one time incident associated with trying to comb out the mat, that would be one thing, but this is now extended to several areas and distinct changes in his typical demeanor.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I think the key is that it seems to happen when you touch the same area... first the mat, then the harness and then if you pick him up from under the arms that could hurt too.. may be nothing more than a tight muscle. Believe me I think I know my boys extremely well too and would know if they were hurting...but unless it is extreme, dogs usually do not cry with pain...they are more likely to protect. My vet showed me how to tell if an area hurt and it is as small as tiny flinch, it's more of a tensing. I am not sure I would run to the vet-- but I may as I said before get her in a relaxed state give her a gentle massage and slowly work toward the the area the matt was...if she was relaxed and enjoying her massage but reacts when you get close to the area that could mean that something is tender. and it could just be from the matt pulling on her skin. but it will give you a clue not to touch her there. Or just try and observe and see if the aggression is always related to that area. Just a thought. My Jasper withdrew into another room his entire puppyhood. At 2 we realized it was pain related (very long story) started him on fish oil and joint supplements and he became a happy guy who wanted to be with us.


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

Holly, you could see the vet just to be sure but for now try to do things another way. What I mean is you keep describing reaching over him or picking him up and that seems to be a problem for him right now. Try reaching under to fasten the tether and rather than scoop him up for bed, use a treat to bait him. My Rufus can be a growly ole bear sometimes and would get a little growly when I wanted him to come to bed. I just changed things to where I save a special treat for after he's in his crate and he will start wanting to go to bed before I'm even ready! Now I just mention a "biscuit" and he happily runs right into his crate and so do all the others. 

Take it really slow with the grooming and lots of treats. Make sure you aren't stressed because you will transmit that stress to him. Keep in mind this is a fun thing! (Even if it's currently not) If I were you, I would change groomers too. I wonder if something happened where they were rough and pulled at his tangles or even hit him? (I mean the groomer-not you!) I hate to say that :redface: but he is reactive to you reaching over him.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Holly, I am so sorry to hear about Murphy, but dont lose hope! Just as you smacked him when he bit you, he is going to bite if you hurt him. He cant smack you  It sure sounds to me like it is a physical issue with that area and needs some time to heal. It is never acceptable for him to growl or snap at you, but I personally feel that there are times when they too are justified in what they do. I would have him totally checked out by the vet. Get some blood work, make sure he has no infections festering. Have them do a full complete physical exam. If they want to muzzle him, let them. My Oreo has a tendancy to nip, so I allowed them to muzzle him and he was not harmed in any way, but they were able to examine him, and draw blood. 
I wonder if his growling now, is because he was hurt and is afraid it will happen again. I would reprimand the growling firmly. Let him know that is NOT acceptable, but the bite may simply have been an isolated incident. 

If he continues, I agree with others that a trainer might help. I have found that many trainers have seen it all - and have great suggetions on how to handle such a situation.
Good luck to you and keep us advised.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Holly, the more I read, the more I think he is hand reactive. It never hurts to get him checked out by a vet. But it sounds like he might need some professional help. Growling or biting when being hurt is one thing but when he is reacting to hand movements, that's another. A simple tap on the nose with some dogs can cause distrust, when your hands are near him. Here is yet another article about growling... http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/obey-thy-dog


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## murphymoesmamma (Apr 1, 2009)

Dave, I wonder if he is hand reactive why he has no problem with me petting his head? he never flinches when I reach for him and he is petted many many times during the day by me and my customers. They adore Murphy and love how he greets them and our customers often hold him because Murphy just loves attention. I love the little guy to pieces and I will continue to love the little guy. Everyone who meets Murphy just loves him because he is Mr. Personality. My daughter stopped by the shop today and Murphy was on her lap. She was able to cut a few of his mats out and he didn't mind at all when he was sitting there on her lap but when she rolled him onto his back and felt at his mats there he growled at her too. I took some small pieces of beef stick with me this morning and told him he was getting a treat after I got him in his seat. I so appreciate all the advice and I sure hope with alot of love and patience he gets over his crankiness.


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

Holly,
When Casper gives me a bad time when I am trying to cut out mats in areas he hates, I just put the muzzle on him. Don't even give him the chance to bite me. We muzzle him now when we get his nails cut. He acts totally different with his muzzle on.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Holly ,dogs are fine sometimes ,but then just the certain circumstances can trigger a reaction. Triggers can be difficult to pinpoint. One that you mentioned here is being put on their backs. For most dogs ,they feel vulnerable when put on their backs. Not that this was meant as any harm but to them it can be aversive. That is why the alpha roll is a very bad thing to try. Sudden movements in front of them can "trigger" a reaction. I suggest observing carefully and keep a list of the things that he reacted to. Do not let strangers hug him Most dogs do not like to be hugged ,especially by strangers. But do read the two articles and keep us posted of any further incidents. A good site to check out is http://www.doggonesafe.com/ Learn to recognize the Calming Signals that dogs use when stressed. They can be very subtle . But do not reprimand him for growling or biting, it will only make things worse. You can slowly build back his trust simple by listening to his signals.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

How are things going, Holly? I feel your pain, in that it's hard to realize that your lovable dog is now unpredictable. Hopefully, it's a temporary thing, but as Dave has mentioned, it can become a problem because of triggers. What Murphy sees as a trigger, might simply be a hand over him, reaching for the harness clip or something. Who knows? 

I wouldn't move away if he growls, or stop doing the action I had intended doing, but I would acknowledge the growl and talk to him, reassure him and still do the move I was about to do. Certainly, if there's no physical reason for him to be growling, then it's behavioral and you will have to retrain/correct him when it happens.


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## murphymoesmamma (Apr 1, 2009)

I want to thank all of you for your advice and encouragement. I was so stunned when Murphy bit me but I knew that i needed to be able to cut mats out from time to time and most especially I HAVE to be able to fasten him in his car seat. 

Whatever crankiness Murphy had is gone and he is back to my sweet little boy. 

before leaving the house in the morning I cut small pieces of beef stick and put 3 small pieces in my pocket wrapped in a bit of paper and told Murphy he was getting a treat as I put him in his car seat. As soon as I sat him in his seat I told him what a good boy he is and I gave him a piece of beef stick. then I fastened the tether closest to me as I told him what a good boy again and as soon as the tether was fastened I gave him another piece. Instead of reaching over to fasten the other tether I got in the driver's seat and fastened it from there and treated him again. I did that for 3 mornings and that was long enough to get him used to his seat and now I can tether him easily and he is not displaying any agression. I have continued to work with him on getting some of his mats cut out and I have found that he is much more receptive to cutting the mats if he has jumped onto my lap on his own and I am talking to him as I cut them out.

He is totally fine now when I fasten him in his seat, and I can reach across him to fasten the other side. I wonder if he associated me fastening the tether with being tethered at the groomers. I still think that possibly he had a bad experience there.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

That is great news Holly. sounds like you may be right about a bad experience. And the treat/talk is working well.


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

So glad to hear that things are going so much better, Holly. It sure does sound like he was equating the tethering in the car seat with the mat cutting, which lends credence to the thought of a bad experience with the groomers. Hope all continues to progress well for both of you.


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

Holly,
I have had some good luck cutting out mats if I caught them first thing in the morning before they jump out of bed...I even put the scissor on the bed stand so I will have them ready.


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## baxterboy (Mar 17, 2009)

This thread made me wonder..
Baxter has never shown any aggression toward us, but sometimes when he is groomed he needs to be muzzled. He does fine unless there is a really bad mat, and then after a while he will try to nip the groomer. I brush him, but leave the mats to the groomer to be honest. He lets me do things that are uncomfortable.... like put in ear drops, or clean the goop from his eyes, or trim his face etc. I watched the groomer brush a mat out once, and he was fine until about 10 minutes in---I think he had just had it. Does this mean he has aggressive tendencies? Is this something I need to work on? How do I work on it when he only does it at the groomer? They don't complain about him---they say he's very well behaved and just needs a muzzle when they have a stubborn mat. Please advise!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

baxterboy said:


> This thread made me wonder..
> Baxter has never shown any aggression toward us, but sometimes when he is groomed he needs to be muzzled. He does fine unless there is a really bad mat, and then after a while he will try to nip the groomer. I brush him, but leave the mats to the groomer to be honest. He lets me do things that are uncomfortable.... like put in ear drops, or clean the goop from his eyes, or trim his face etc. I watched the groomer brush a mat out once, and he was fine until about 10 minutes in---I think he had just had it. Does this mean he has aggressive tendencies? Is this something I need to work on? How do I work on it when he only does it at the groomer? They don't complain about him---they say he's very well behaved and just needs a muzzle when they have a stubborn mat. Please advise!


hi Baxterboy, I think the best way to approach this is to try working on the mats yourself. Get him used to these more. The easier he is to groom for the groomer the better. Some groomers will refuse to groom certain dogs unless they are muzzled. Your guy might not bite you ,but he might the groomer. We groom Molly ourselves ,but occasionally take her to the groomer. Our groomer who is also a professional trainer is really great with her. She charges a little more ,simply because she takes longer and tries to make it as stress free as possible. She is so good with dogs that she does not have to use muzzles ,nor does she like them. They don't teach the dog anything other than it is ok to bite. Your dog is not really aggressive as much as he is reactive and not conditioned to grooming properly. But I would work on her more yourself , stay on top of mats, use detangler and make it as stress free as possible. Is it possible to find another groomer that will go the extra mile to help her out.? A good groomer is worth the extra money and is not always easy to find.


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