# Can't kick cough



## paisley (Aug 1, 2010)

Hi all. New to forum. Have a puppy, Paisley, that is 11 weeks old. Soon after we got her she developed a cough. The vet put her on an antibiotic but it grew progressively worse. Throughout she has had energy and decent appetite. She is perky and sassy! After two weeks the vet didn't like that it wasn't clearing and has her on a 5 day shot protocol and a stronger oral antibiotic. After 3 days of shots she is still coughing up a lot of phlegm and coughs much of the night. During the day she doesn't cough as much. She is about 2.5 lbs but I can see her body growing and changing. I've never had a small dog before so I am not sure how they tend to deal with illness. Can anyone give me an idea how long I should expect her to cough? And would it still be contagious? Thanks!


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

What did he think it was? Rosie had kennel cough in March. Same thing your vet did, after two weeks he gave her two shots and then a steroid. It took her about a month to get better. But she ran fever and you could tell that she was sick. Hopefully, your little one has some kind of allergy if she is eating and growing. I guess it boils down to--Do trust your Vet?


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## paisley (Aug 1, 2010)

The vet is calling it kennel cough or just basic "new environment" sensitivities which could have suppressed the immune system. The first two weeks she was eating her food with vigor. Now, not so much. She is drinking well but no longer prefers the food I have been feeding her all along. It is now sitting on my counter as I have offered it to her 3 times this morning all ready. She actually prefers the hard kibble of my Golden!
She seems totally energetic this morning although last night and today she started going through this really hyper stage.Nipping at heels and feet. Wondering if she is having a reaction to all the antibiotics? It seems like an awful lot of meds.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

I was very worried about Rosie. He also put her on another oral antibotic after the first two weeks. If she tried to run, she would lose her breath. I spoiled her tremendously during that period. Actually though she gained weight during that month. The steroids uped her appetite but made her hyper also.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

paisley said:


> The vet is calling it kennel cough or just basic "new environment" sensitivities which could have suppressed the immune system. The first two weeks she was eating her food with vigor. Now, not so much. She is drinking well but no longer prefers the food I have been feeding her all along. It is now sitting on my counter as I have offered it to her 3 times this morning all ready. She actually prefers the hard kibble of my Golden!
> She seems totally energetic this morning although last night and today she started going through this really hyper stage.Nipping at heels and feet. Wondering if she is having a reaction to all the antibiotics? It seems like an awful lot of meds.


Well, the part about wanting someone else's food more than her own is typical Hav. (and maybe typical dog!<g>) My Kodi would much prefer the cat food, and the cat would prefer to eat his dog food! We have to separate them for feeding so everyone get's what they are supposed to.

May I ask where you got your puppy? Have you talked to the breeder about this?

The good thing is that she's probably not THAT sick if she's still so energetic. While I guess it's a possibility that the meds are making her hyper, 11 week old puppies can be VERY "busy". Every time she nips, say "OWWW!!!" in a high pitched, loud voice, then put her in time out for a few minutes. That's what another dog would do, and they usually catch on pretty quickly that if they want to play with you, they need to play gently.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

BTW, she's absolutely adorable. I don't know if you know the rules around here, but the rule is, that if you're going to post about your cute puppy, you need to show us more PICTURES!!!:wink:


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## paisley (Aug 1, 2010)

went in for fourth shot today. will actually see the vet tomorrow when she does the fifth shot. Although this is a new vet, I have been very impressed with their availability and attentiveness to her. Definitely not "passive" vets. have no reason to not trust them yet. My neighbor is also a Medvet (crisis vet) so I could get her opinion if needed.
Paisley was adopted from Petland. I know the ire that can raise here.....(ducking.....) but I had intended to talk to more breeders in the area or central area but I will admit, I really like seeing the pups before I commit. We don't have any breeders very close by. Our local Petland rarely ever gets Havanese in their stock. I have never seen one before and they told me she was maybe 1 of 3 they have had all year. i have never purchased from a store before and wasn't planning on it this time but when I saw her it was that "shoot, this is my dog!" moment. As you can see from one picture I have posted, she looks just like my golden. In fact, a friend on facebook commented on her picture and congratulated me for getting another golden! 
I have not figured out how to post other pics yet? Quick tutorial??


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## Gizmo'sMom (Jul 9, 2010)

I don't know if this is typical or helps but I know whenever Gizzy is feeling ill or sick to her stomach she gets nippy and runs around the room over and over. 

She did this the day she got the UTI and the day she ate too much of a new bone treat that made her stomach sick. It stopped for me the next day.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

paisley said:


> went in for fourth shot today. will actually see the vet tomorrow when she does the fifth shot. Although this is a new vet, I have been very impressed with their availability and attentiveness to her. Definitely not "passive" vets. have no reason to not trust them yet. My neighbor is also a Medvet (crisis vet) so I could get her opinion if needed.
> Paisley was adopted from Petland. I know the ire that can raise here.....(ducking.....) but I had intended to talk to more breeders in the area or central area but I will admit, I really like seeing the pups before I commit. We don't have any breeders very close by. Our local Petland rarely ever gets Havanese in their stock. I have never seen one before and they told me she was maybe 1 of 3 they have had all year. i have never purchased from a store before and wasn't planning on it this time but when I saw her it was that "shoot, this is my dog!" moment. As you can see from one picture I have posted, she looks just like my golden. In fact, a friend on facebook commented on her picture and congratulated me for getting another golden!
> I have not figured out how to post other pics yet? Quick tutorial??


Well, sounds like you already know the problems with pet store/puppy mill pups, so we won't re-hash that. And, unfortunately, you (and she) are living with one of the consequences... a sick puppy. I hope Petland is at least helping you with the expense of treating her.

In any case, she is very cute, and I'm sure you will love her. ...AND we still need hoto:. If you scroll down under the window where you type in the message you want to send, you'll see "additional options". Under that is "manage attachments". Just follow the directions, and you can attach up to 5 photos to any one post. I believe the photos can't be larger than 800x800, so you may need to resize before submitting.

If you have photo software you like to use, most any program can do this. If not, there is help for resizing photos on the forum home page. Good luck, and let us see that cute baby!


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## Lola'smom (Dec 10, 2008)

paisley said:


> went in for fourth shot today. will actually see the vet tomorrow when she does the fifth shot. Although this is a new vet, I have been very impressed with their availability and attentiveness to her. Definitely not "passive" vets. have no reason to not trust them yet. My neighbor is also a Medvet (crisis vet) so I could get her opinion if needed.
> Paisley was adopted from Petland.


You will not need to duck from me--but I urge you to please, please, please, please take Paisley ASAP to another vet in your area. NOT affiliated with Petland.

I have tons of information about Petland and their affiliated vets, etc, and what you can do AFTER Paisley is well. But, right now, the health of that sweet baby is all you need to do.

After she is well, let me know and I can forward you all the information about how to get paid for the healthcare, the places you need to provide this information to, etc.

Many good thoughts for Paisley.


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## Lola'smom (Dec 10, 2008)

One more thing--in your contract from Petland, you have a lot of information about innoculations and medicines given to your dog AT Petland and before--at the broker, probably Hunte Corp. Make sure to take that to your new vet, not affiliated with Petland. Also, please make sure that you get all your vet records for the new vet and INFORM THE PETLAND-ASSOCIATED VET NOT TO RELEASE ANY INFORMATION to Petland. 

The vaccine records will be on two sheets from Petland and the Daily Record is another sheet where the Petland employees write in weight, appetite, health and all the health info on it. That second sheet will be of utmost importance.

Kennel cough is very serious and lots of dogs from Petland get it and they can die quickly. I really urge you to tun to another vet immediately, for Paisley's sake.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Lola'smom said:


> You will not need to duck from me--but I urge you to please, please, please, please take Paisley ASAP to another vet in your area. NOT affiliated with Petland.
> 
> I have tons of information about Petland and their affiliated vets, etc, and what you can do AFTER Paisley is well. But, right now, the health of that sweet baby is all you need to do.
> 
> ...


Great advice. I have heard some nightmare stories about petland and their vets not treating the dogs appropriately because it would cost too much and to be frank it is cheaper to replace the puppy. If she were my dog I would take her to a vet not associated with that pet store as well.


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## paisley (Aug 1, 2010)

Petland has actually been great about covering everything. They would even have covered the costs of treating my other dog had he become sick. 
She seems to check out great in every other area. My golden came from a breeder and was not as healthy as he had giardia and was covered in vomit /feces from the drive to meet me. I used the link someone listed in one of the threads to see what conditions possibly were at kennel where pup was whelped. No citations or bad conditions were noted. She was whelped in MO. I'm sure the flight or transportation to OH was stressful on a 1+ pound dog, too.
Anyhoo, the cough is getting better and she has been a playful and smart pup today. Learned to do "down" as a command. We have already done "come", "sit", "bano" (potty).


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## Lola'smom (Dec 10, 2008)

ama0722 said:


> Great advice. I have heard some nightmare stories about petland and their vets not treating the dogs appropriately because it would cost too much and to be frank it is cheaper to replace the puppy. If she were my dog I would take her to a vet not associated with that pet store as well.


As soon as humanly possible.

Too many Petland dogs come with Kennel Cough from the puppy mills from which they were taken by brokers such as Hunte Corp, propped up by tons of meds by Hunte and then by Petland and crash when they get taken to a home. Unfortunately, it is a very, very dangerous disease.

Please read/watch:

http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/puppy_mills/timelines/petland_investigation.html


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## paisley (Aug 1, 2010)

Lola'smom said:


> One more thing--in your contract from Petland, you have a lot of information about innoculations and medicines given to your dog AT Petland and before--at the broker, probably Hunte Corp. Make sure to take that to your new vet, not affiliated with Petland. Also, please make sure that you get all your vet records for the new vet and INFORM THE PETLAND-ASSOCIATED VET NOT TO RELEASE ANY INFORMATION to Petland.
> 
> The vaccine records will be on two sheets from Petland and the Daily Record is another sheet where the Petland employees write in weight, appetite, health and all the health info on it. That second sheet will be of utmost importance.
> 
> Kennel cough is very serious and lots of dogs from Petland get it and they can die quickly. I really urge you to tun to another vet immediately, for Paisley's sake.


I just went through the packet from Petland. I only have the "preview sheet" which has her vaccinations listed and dates given. Suppliers reference number and Breeder name. I do not know the broker. I do not seem, to have the second sheet you mentioned. When I saw her at the store she had just been delivered the day before on a Saturday. A lot of her info wasn't in the computer but they did have her AKC print out with vaccination records. She had not been vaccinated for bordatella. Obviously, I have not vaccinated her again since bringing her home. I have a child with Autism so I am very concerned about vaccinations anyway. Her stool was clean at first visit, too. I found it interesting that while I was purchasing the pup and working through contract details the girl working with me said that the vet they work with is very good but can be pricey. I didn't feel pushed to use them. They are right beside the pet store so I'm sure that had something to do with their business association. 
Also, wondering why it is that I shouldn't have petland's vet send medical records off to HQ?


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## Lola'smom (Dec 10, 2008)

Are there any actual reputable breeders of Hav in MO? 

If the puppy came from Petland via Hunte from MO, I would bet my bottom dollar that the puppy came from a puppy mill. 

Unfortunately, the mills get cited and change names and post office boxes as quickly as we change clothes, and they are difficult to pin down.

Unfortunately, I have a lot of personal and professional experience with Petland and Hunte and the affiliated vets who work with/for Petland.

I do not blame you for buying from Petland, but I do urge you to change vets and soon as possible and make sure that the treatment course she is on is the best. TOO much medication (practiced by Hunte and Petland all the time) can be as bad as none or too little.

Truly, I am not being judgemental in the least. I am just concerned for you and for Paisley and hope for a good outcome.

Just want to stress how you must ask the Petland-affiliated vet NOT to share Paisley's treatment record with Petland or any of their agents/attys.


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## casperkeep (May 16, 2007)

I am sorry that your puppy is sick. I really wish that Petland would close everywhere. We had one and they got closed down. I would definalty take her to another vet as soon as you can. She is a real cutie. Hope she gets better soon!


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## paisley (Aug 1, 2010)

How can I find out if Hunte is the broker? Can it be tracked down? The vet I am seeing is "Healthy Pets". I don't know anything about them either. I think I will ask my neighbor what she thinks about the protocol. Certainly, I will say something to the vet tomorrow when I see her. I actually was impressed that she was so proactive toward Paisley. 
How would you suggest I approach the vet about now passing on files?


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## Lola'smom (Dec 10, 2008)

paisley said:


> I just went through the packet from Petland. I only have the "preview sheet" which has her vaccinations listed and dates given. Suppliers reference number and Breeder name. I do not know the broker. I do not seem, to have the second sheet you mentioned.
> 
> Also, wondering why it is that I shouldn't have petland's vet send medical records off to HQ?


In answer to your second question, they work FOR/WITH Petland and do not have your best interest at heart. It is unethical to do so, but they do.

The brokers Petland uses are standard. They usually use Hunte. They are large, national dog brokers and have a standing facility in MO to receive and treat/prop up dogs with meds and then ship on trucks to Petlands across the country.

The sheet I am talking about is called *"The Daily Health Record."*

It has hand-written notes with date, day, when the puppy received nutristat, the stool info, weight, temp, bath, when they get Strongid, Clavamox, Benadryl, Dermalone, Vetro/Eye Ointent and Nebulizer. The Petland employess fill it out every day.

You should have *Puppy Warranty Sheet*--there is not much info there other than the warranty.

There is a *Preview Sheet*. That has the vaccines as well as all the wormers and treatments the pup recvd at the brokers and at Petland. Look for Bronchicine, Albon, Pancur, Nutrient Gel, etc.

There is a *check-in sheet *with the broker's name, name of place where pup was born and what meds were given at the puppy mill/breeder. Again, look for Puppy Aid, Albon, Panacur and Cronchicine and other stuff--that will give you an accurate look at the puppy's health at time Petland recvd the dog.

There is a check-in record at bottom left of Check-In sheet which is filled by the Petland-associated vet. They are notorious for just leaving out pertinent info on this. For instance, the Bichon we rescued from the Petland window where he'd been for 6 months had luxated patellas--grade 3 in one knee and grade 4 in the other but the vet says his knees are fine.

You should also have a broker sheet with the broker's name across the top and bottom--letterhead. It gives the USDA-number for that dog as well as states what wormers the puppy mill/breeder gave puppy and the meds given to the puppy while at the Broker, You will probably have one that says HUNTE CORP.

They give Vanguard Plus 5 to their dogs as well, which is CONTRAindicated for Havs.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

*Why is she getting so many shots?* She's on an oral antibiotic and getting (?) shots too?

Is her kennel cough viral or bacterial? Obviously viral isn't going to be helped by any antibiotics.

Yes, kennel cough is highly contagious, which is why so many pet store puppies have it. You'll have to keep her confined (isolated from other dogs) until she's over it.


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## Lola'smom (Dec 10, 2008)

paisley said:


> How can I find out if Hunte is the broker? Can it be tracked down? The vet I am seeing is "Healthy Pets". I don't know anything about them either. I think I will ask my neighbor what she thinks about the protocol. Certainly, I will say something to the vet tomorrow when I see her. I actually was impressed that she was so proactive toward Paisley.
> How would you suggest I approach the vet about now passing on files?


Look at your *Check-In Sheet*. It tell you the name of the supplier/broker.

I hate to be blunt, but one cannot be too "proactive" with kennel cough in puppies. It can cause death.

You need a non-Petland Associated Vet and when you have one, you can ask the other vet to send you copies of all treatment and not to give anyone your information or Paisley's treatment info.

Good luck to Paisley--I hate to see another Petland puppy seriously sick.


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I do hope she will be okay. She is really adorable. I won't reiterate what everyone else has said. Keep us posted.


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## Lola'smom (Dec 10, 2008)

Havtahava said:


> *Why is she getting so many shots?* She's on an oral antibiotic and getting (?) shots too?
> 
> Is her kennel cough viral or bacterial? Obviously viral isn't going to be helped by any antibiotics.
> 
> .


I don't understand that, either. Makes no sense to me about shots AND antibiotics. For Kennel Cough? It is a virus and does not respond to antibiotics.

Unless a vet fears that the dog has pneumonia?


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## paisley (Aug 1, 2010)

She was put on an oral antibiotic at the first visit which was "doxycycline". This was a preventive as there was no cough but some sneezing and running nose. The vet suggested this b/c of her age and weight wanting to keep immune system up. After two weeks ( actually before two weeks b/c I didn't like the cough I was hearing) I took her in and the vet didn't like what she was hearing and decided to go with a very aggressive approach. 5 separate shots of antibiotic and a two week round of Clavamax. At today's shot she felt she was making progress. All along she assured me she was not hearing popping or crackling/wheezing and as long as she was eating and drinking/ playing etc....stay with the protocol. I'm not sure what else a different vet would have done?


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## paisley (Aug 1, 2010)

Lola'smom said:


> Look at your *Check-In Sheet*. It tell you the name of the supplier/broker.
> 
> I hate to be blunt, but one cannot be too "proactive" with kennel cough in puppies. It can cause death.
> 
> ...


I do not have a check in sheet. In fact, I don't have much of anything. ONly the AKC pedigree back 4 generations, Initial vet exam sheet and vaccination sheet or preview sheet. Do all Petlands do exactly the same thing?


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

paisley said:


> I'm not sure what else a different vet would have done?


I'd highly encourage you to call another vet that isn't related to the current vet and find out. If this goes on much longer, you may end up with some respiratory damage.


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## Lola'smom (Dec 10, 2008)

paisley said:


> She was put on an oral antibiotic at the first visit which was "doxycycline". This was a preventive as there was no cough but some sneezing and running nose. The vet suggested this b/c of her age and weight wanting to keep immune system up. After two weeks ( actually before two weeks b/c I didn't like the cough I was hearing) I took her in and the vet didn't like what she was hearing and decided to go with a very aggressive approach. 5 separate shots of antibiotic and a two week round of Clavamax. snipped


I hate getting up in your business, but since you asked by opening this thread, I am giving you my opinion. Again, based on knowledge and experience with Petland and their vet-affiliates.

Doxy is a tetracycline antibiotic. I am no vet, but not sure why a dog would be put on that as a preventative. Viruses will NOT respond to an antibiotic and certainly young dogs should not get antibiotics unless they do, indeed, have an infection. Doxy is used for skin infections and for such things as tick fever--which obviously the puppy doesn't have.

Clavamox is a broad-spectrum antibiotic and would be given if the vet finds that the dog has an infection (via x-rays, blood test, urine, whatever).

Do you know what shots she is being given?

Havs are very reactive and can have serious, serious reactions to vaccines.

BTW, this is time for my public service announcement NOT to give Havs the Lepto vaccine.


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## Lola'smom (Dec 10, 2008)

paisley said:


> I do not have a check in sheet. In fact, I don't have much of anything. ONly the AKC pedigree back 4 generations, Initial vet exam sheet and vaccination sheet or preview sheet. Do all Petlands do exactly the same thing?


Yes, they do.

That is strange that they gave you an AKC pedigree. Petland does not register their dogs with the AKC.

Petland uses American Canine Association (ACA), America's Pet Registry (APR).


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

Please get this little one to another vet immediately! It sounds as if she's being over treated for whatever she has which can also be extremely dangerous, especially in such a tiny dog. Unless your other dog has been vaccinated for kennel cough I'd take him/her in too just to be on the safe side. A persistent cough is not normal.


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## casperkeep (May 16, 2007)

I wouldnt care what your vet thinks of you by going to another vet....this little one is depending on you now. I would really look into another vet asap. Things just dont add up here. Not sounding mean here just want the little one to be treated.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Lola'smom said:


> BTW, this is time for my public service announcement NOT to give Havs the Lepto vaccine.


Along those same lines, *please make sure your puppy does not get ANY vaccines while she is sick*. Vaccines are only for healthy dogs.


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## Lola'smom (Dec 10, 2008)

> 7) You can also check www.barkbytes.com, "AKC suspension list," for breeders kicked out of the AKC for violations, especially if the puppy's registration papers are something other than AKC. We haven't found it very useful because it's a very small number that the AKC actually finds out about. The AKC provides papers for thousands of puppy mills.


http://www.petstorecruelty.org/how to find out more about breeders.htm


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## paisley (Aug 1, 2010)

Lola'smom said:


> Yes, they do.
> 
> That is strange that they gave you an AKC pedigree. Petland does not register their dogs with the AKC.
> 
> Petland uses American Canine Association (ACA), America's Pet Registry (APR).


That would be my mistake. You are correct. It has been registered under "United All Breed Registry".


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## paisley (Aug 1, 2010)

Havtahava said:


> Along those same lines, *please make sure your puppy does not get ANY vaccines while she is sick*. Vaccines are only for healthy dogs.


I would never do that, also. I do appreciate the fact that the vet would not give any other vaccines for that very reason.


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## Lola'smom (Dec 10, 2008)

Havtahava said:


> Along those same lines, *please make sure your puppy does not get ANY vaccines while she is sick*. Vaccines are only for healthy dogs.


YES, yes, yes, yes! I cannot agree with you enough.

And avoid Corona and Lepto vaccines--not for Havs!


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## paisley (Aug 1, 2010)

Lola'smom said:


> I hate getting up in your business, but since you asked by opening this thread, I am giving you my opinion. Again, based on knowledge and experience with Petland and their vet-affiliates.
> 
> Doxy is a tetracycline antibiotic. I am no vet, but not sure why a dog would be put on that as a preventative. Viruses will NOT respond to an antibiotic and certainly young dogs should not get antibiotics unless they do, indeed, have an infection. Doxy is used for skin infections and for such things as tick fever--which obviously the puppy doesn't have.
> 
> ...


In regards to the Clavomax change, I believe the vet did feel that Paisley had some infection. However, she was encouraged by the fact that it did not sound like full blown pneumonia. She did tell me that we were in a very precarious time and if anything were to change I was to bring her in immediately to be admitted. I honestly don't get a bad vibe from this vet. It is a lady (a pregnant one at that!  I have experience dealing with bad docs. I'm not one to go along to get along. As I mentioned, her treatment has been aggressive and I can't imagine our family vet doing less but I will give them a call tomorrow.


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## Lola'smom (Dec 10, 2008)

casperkeep said:


> I wouldnt care what your vet thinks of you by going to another vet....this little one is depending on you now. I would really look into another vet asap. Things just dont add up here. Not sounding mean here just want the little one to be treated.


Ditto every word.

And, for me, there is not any pile on for the Petland thing. There is no sense in arguing that, we all know what that is. And, as someone who couldn't take seeing a baby grow in a glass cage at a Petland front window month after month after month next door to my grocer's and walked in and bought him 7 yrs ago--I understand the guilt that comes with that. Would I go back and do that again? No. But, I know we were meant to have Paco (our Bichon) in our lives and, thankfully, we were able to give him all the medical treatment he has needed all his life.

So, we can't go back in time and re-do things, but we can make sure that this gorgeous little Hav gets the best medical help and gets well. Unfortunately, Petland has a richly-earned reputation for selling sick puppies who were born in horrific circumstances (in Paco's case in feces-covered grates in 96 degree temp in MO) to unfortunate parents who were used and abused and thrown out like garbage. He was sick when we got him, had been sick since he was born, the vet affiliated with Petland lied and covered up for them.

So, I have become a life-long advocate AGAINST Petland and I am happy to see how many of them have closed because of protests and because more and more consumers know the truth about them. On behalf of Paco and his parents and sibs I feel it is my duty to spread the word about Petland.


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## Lola'smom (Dec 10, 2008)

paisley said:


> In regards to the Clavomax change, I believe the vet did feel that Paisley had some infection. However, she was encouraged by the fact that it did not sound like full blown pneumonia. .


Did she know why Paisley (love the name!) had not responded to the treatment with Doxy? Did Paisley have a high white blood count? Did they do a chest x-ray? Anything to suggest changing antibiotics on such a small puppy and go on to antibiotic number 2?

Usually, Kennel Cough is not treated with antibiotics.

Do you have any idea what the 5 days of shots are? Another antibiotic? Steroids?

I hate to be such a negative nelly, but something sounds very hinky to me.

Again, sending good thoughts that this baby gets well and soon.


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## Lola'smom (Dec 10, 2008)

paisley said:


> snipped As I mentioned, her treatment has been aggressive and I can't imagine our family vet doing less but I will give them a call tomorrow.


Sometimes less is more. You have a family vet? Please take this baby to that vet!

I am saying this with the best, best intentions and most respectfully--but it sounds like very strange treatment for kennel cough.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

I read the part where your little one has learned some basic commands. boy she is a smart one. Hope she gets well soon.


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## paisley (Aug 1, 2010)

I do not know what the shot is exactly. For some reason I am thinking it is an antibiotic but will certainly verify tomorrow when I see her. 
Other than a nocturnal kind of gaggy cough after she has slept for a time (she rarely coughs during the day) she eats, plays, and acts like a really healthy pup. It seems that maybe the mucous collects without being cleared while she sleeps and then she has to cough it out for awhile. I don't hear any wheezing when I listen to her either and would have immediately taken her to medvet had I heard that or had she gone listless.
I do appreciate all the advice and take it all very seriously. I would never have considered myself a "petland" dog buyer!! It was a weird cosmic moment as she looked just like my Golden. That was what caught my attention. Otherwise I would have thought she was another Bichon or pom all curled up in her glass bowl. There wasn't even a sign on her glass yet. I had to ask.
I detest Puppy mills also. I appreciate how so many of you fight back and don't turn away. I would love to know more about her origin. If you have any ideas how to pursue that please let me know.


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## Lola'smom (Dec 10, 2008)

paisley said:


> I would love to know more about her origin. If you have any ideas how to pursue that please let me know.





> "Did my puppy come from a puppy mill?"
> 
> Unfortunately, if you purchased a puppy from a pet store, the answer is "yes" about 99 times out of 100. But if you want specifics, then you need to do some more research.
> 
> ...





> For federal (USDA) records, you can request the USDA inspection reports yourself this way:
> 
> 1) Find the breeder's name on the puppy's registration papers (AKC or other registry). It will usually be just a person's name and maybe a state, and it's often on the page that gives the puppy's family tree. "Hunte Corporation" is the broker, not the breeder.
> 
> ...


http://www.petstorecruelty.org/how to find out more about breeders.htm


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## Lola'smom (Dec 10, 2008)

paisley said:


> Other than a nocturnal kind of gaggy cough after she has slept for a time (she rarely coughs during the day) she eats, plays, and acts like a really healthy pup. It seems that maybe the mucous collects without being cleared while she sleeps and then she has to cough it out for awhile. .


That is not normal for puppies and after a couple of weeks on antibiotics, if it were bacterial, it would have cleared up, I would think.


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

another thread about petland:
http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=11852&highlight=petstore


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## Lola'smom (Dec 10, 2008)

Posh's Mom said:


> the fact is, after admitting you were full aware that pet store puppies do not come from ethical breeders, you are going to get judged by people like me. they, like me, might assume you purchased her on a whim and that you don't really care about puppymills because hey, now you've got your puppy and the mill thing doesn't really affect you. you're sure she'll probably be healthy after this cough thing, and i sure hope she will be healthy, and then the images of puppymills will fade away.
> 
> i've made mistakes in my life, constantly and consistently. in fact, mistakes are one of my fortes. however, this is something i am passionate about and i really think it is important to once again say out loud. do not buy puppies from pet stores. period. ever. don't do it.
> 
> .


I agree with much of your post--particularly about the thread being just too danged sad and oh so familiar. The healthy Petland puppies are the _exception_, not the rule--and the fact that they buy puppies from puppy mills and use horrific dog brokers who themselves are responsible for the death of puppies (Hunte Corp) is a message that cannot be said often enough. There cannot be enough educating the public about this.

But, the fact is that Petland makes their money from uninformed and inexperienced impulse shoppers, which makes it even more shameful.

One big thing on which you and I agree is that we all make mistakes. That's what we do. And perhaps judging people and slamming folks doesn't help educate them about puppy mills or buying from pet shops, in my opinion. When I took Paco from that window where he'd been inside that glass crate for 6 months and he was so sick, the last thing I needed was to be judged or bashed--but I really needed good info, from experienced people. And I didn't have that, initially.

So I go on the off chance that there is another person like me out there, a caring person, a person who gives and tries to do the right thing and stumbles and does things wrong--but needs, desperately, for some help with a sick puppy.

You never know how things happen. Getting Paco from that hell-hole was one of the best things that ever happened to me as a person, and to my family. Because it changed our views and, as we learned, we grew. We wouldn't be animal advocates without it, or be supporters of legislation against pet stores and puppy mills. We wouldn't protest against Petlands on weekends. We might not help financially with dog rescue groups and organizations who are fighting the horrors of puppy mills. I wouldn't be shampooing dogs at the local Humane Society shelter, before they go for adoption--or help rescue and foster, and on and on and on.

I went to Duke Univ, and on the front is a a wonderful sign that reads, "to become more educated is to become more human." I have believed that to my core since I first laid eyes on it as a young woman.

For the OP, it's too late and it's utterly useless--I believe--to bash her, particularly at a time when her puppy is sick. The OP will learn from this and I hope that she, too, becomes an ambassador for animal rights and spreads the word about the horrors of pet store animals. It is particularly difficult to hear about of from someone who says she KNEW about Petland history and breeders and bought a puppy nontheless. But, here is hoping that this personal knowledge will lead to becoming an example to others and to help spread the word.

I join you in hoping that this sweet puppy gets better shortly and I dearly hope she is taken to the family vet or another vet-- ANY vet not associated with Petland--as soon as possible.

Ugh--I have bored myself with my soap box. Getting off right now.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

Careful Amy and Lola's mom, you'll be in big trouble if you don't watch what you say.


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

you're right ann.

i think i need to quit coming here. i've actually pretty much done so...

deleted my post.

not coming back for a while.

i've come to realize it's not a good fit for me anymore.


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## Lola'smom (Dec 10, 2008)

Oh, Posh, I wish you had not. It was a very good post.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

Just commenting on past threads Amy, that wasn't directed at you. Your post was truthful and informative but there are some on HF who believe that if the truth is a bit painful it shouldn't be shared. I beg to differ.

I've always valued your opinion and love seeing your beautiful photos of Posh, your family, and all of your animals. I hope you will come back, I'll miss you.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Amy, if you stop posting here, I will hunt you down and drag you back! Are you kidding me? You're one of the best things this forum has known, as far as I'm concerned. There are threads that are just too hard to comment on, so ignore them and move on.


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## Lola'smom (Dec 10, 2008)

> Welcome to PetShopPuppies.org. We are a non-profit organization, home-based in Missouri, the puppy mill capital of the world. Despite what the pet store may have told you, puppies bred for pet stores are seldom bred by "private" breeders, or "local" breeders. The pet industry is a multi-billion dollar industry that depends on the mass production of puppies for America's pet stores. Please visit the links to the left to learn more about the commercial dog industry.
> 
> If you have purchased a puppy from a pet store, we encourage you to request your free "puppy report." For more information about these reports, or the commercial dog industry in general, please explore the menu links to the left.


http://www.petshoppuppies.org/Petland.htm


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## Lola'smom (Dec 10, 2008)

> Re all that Hunte and Petland administer to their "healthy puppies."
> 
> PETLAND - THE MYTH?
> 
> ...


http://www.puppymillssuck.com/petland.html

The post upthread by the OP saying the Petland-associated Vet said the standard kennelcough is due to new environment made me remember this. It's their standard line.


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## trueblue (Jan 22, 2008)

Amy, don't make me come up north and kick your butt.


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## paisley (Aug 1, 2010)

Original poster here.....A lot of passion on this forum. I have been on many many forums. Some more vocal than others. We all come from different experiences but have joined together with one common bond and that is our Havanese puppy. I am not naive or tone deaf. We all have our own person passions. I did open myself up by my admission. I toyed with whether even to admit it as I knew it would be a tinder box. I'm a big girl and am not easily offended and can play in the big field. That being what it is, maybe the forum owner needs to put a large disclaimer banner/warning on the home page alerting new posters that the overwhelming sentiment on this forum is passionately anti petstores. You openly admit to the origin of your puppy at your own peril. At least, new posters truly just seeking an answer to their fuzzball's issues would know what road to stay off of. In some defense of my purchase, the Petland where she was adopted from for many years was an independent franchise that openly advertised they did not get their pups from mills, only from local breeders that could easily be tracked and checked on. I came to find out too late that in the last year or two this local store was sold. I'm sorry to hear that. 
When I go the the doctor for my child's ear ache I don't expect to be lectured on whether they still have a pacifier. Staying on topic would be appreciated. 
I have quite a few soap boxes I am defending these days. I didn't expect to find myself dealing with the effects of autism in my child either. I have coalitioned with the autism community to work in finding out cures, methods and preventions although there are many areas we disagree on even then. 
I will continue to read and scan through posts to find answers and ideas for raising my new little one. I have never had a small dog (always have had Goldens) so picking up and holding a 2 lb fur ball is all new to me. I have had sick dogs before so that isn't a problem strictly for pet shop buyers. 
I am raising 6 children and have always had dogs so I am no newbie to illness or distress. I do not freak or panic but will not hesitate to call in support when needed. I know where my 911 people are. If I felt at all my little dog was in grave danger or at the precipice of death I would be at Medvet in an instant ( or at my neighbor's house who is a medvet). I have been in an ER more times than I care to think with my children in the wee hours. I respect each and every one of you even though we all see life through different enough lenses.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

"Paisley", I appreciate your honesty and sharing your experiences.

You wrote: *"That being what it is, maybe the forum owner needs to put a large disclaimer banner/warning on the home page alerting new posters that the overwhelming sentiment on this forum is passionately anti petstores. " *

Yes, I actually think that is a great idea and one we've suggested in the past. Not just that, but to warn people about even considering buying a puppy from a pet store. Many times, people come on to read for days, weeks sometimes even months before they ever get their Havanese puppy and yet don't notice the threads where we warn against encouraging puppy mills and backyard breeders. They may be spending more time reading about which toys to buy, or what food and grooming supplies. All great information, but it may not teach many of them about puppy mills and pet shops. 
No matter how many threads we make into "stickies", a banner of some type could actually help. 

I believe some members (including myself) can be quite harsh at times, and I make no apologies for my beliefs. How I express them often depends on the intention of the member posting and sometimes passion gets the better of me. I take offense when someone makes the choice to only listen to their heart while their head already knows the cons for all involved when buying from a pet shop. The attitude of the poster makes a huge difference to me when I reply - maybe that shouldn't be so, but it is.

I truly hope your little Paisley feels better very soon as she is so small and young to be this ill. Please keep us posted and know that we do care about your new Havanese puppy.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Back to the original question... As I stated earlier when Rosie had kennel cough, it took a good month for her to be back to normal. The first visit to the vet, he gave a antibotic shot, re-vacinated for kennel cough, and two scripts, one an antibotic and one Predisone. I took her back after about 11 days as she was not getting better. this time he gave her two more shots (don't know what) and stronger antibotic and more steriod.
Oh yes, she had lost a whole pound and that is a lot for a little dog. I was told from the start to confine her and not let her run, no more fetch, etc. She didn't feel like it at first, but as she got better, the husband took her out and let her run. She ran and then collapsed trying to get her breath. Scared him to death. I had no more trouble with him after that. I fed her good stuff through it all, chicken, steak, rice--no kibble. (took a few days to get her back to kibble after that). She only coughed at night also. Would wake me coughing. Kennel cough is a serious disease and can be fatal if not treated. The vet said that most don't have a bad time with it and then there are ones like Rosie that would have died had we not done agressive treatment.

I kicked myself for not taking her in immediately. The first night she woke me coughing, I took her to the shower room and ran hot water until it steamed up and sat in there with her to loosen the phlem--same as I did with my babies. the next morning she seemed fine so I did not take her. Then that afternoon, I noticed that she was lathargic and seemed to be hot to the touch. She had two degrees of fever 103 normal is 101. I invested in a themometer for her after that.

As to antibotics not being the proper med for kennel cough. I don't know but trust my vet. I do know that he was giving her something so that she wouldn't get anything else in her weaken condition. 

All said she is a healthy little dog now. Your dog will be fine before you know it. 

My daughter has an aspergers child. She has devoted her life to Tommy, homeschooled him and his older brother, and was active in teaching other classes for other aspergurs children. She is active with the society and talks with people all over about the disease and the to dos and do nots. Tommy is 19 now and attending college there in Huntsville but lives at home. He has finally got to the stage that she doesn't have to go to class with him and he would never inniate a conversation; but will answer questions. Can't make a decision about anything--don't ever give him a choice--he can't make one. When we go out to eat, he orders steak, the watress wants to know how done, he gets that out, then she wants to know what veg, etc. He goes into lockdown mode. When he is with me, I order for him; but his mother doesn't like for me to. Her goal in life is for him to be able to live in an apartment, have a job and family. I can't imagine what full blown autism is like.


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## paisley (Aug 1, 2010)

Thanks, LucileDodd. Your sick puppy story sounds familiar! It was the night time coughing that kept me awake. Everything always seems 100X worse in the middle of the night! I took Paisley in for her 5th antibiotic shot and this time had an appointment with the vet. I really questioned her about Petland pups and their asso with the store. She answered very strongly that they provide a service in an arrangement only but the records are 100% private and are never sent on to Petland or anyone else. In fact, I like this vet to the point that I may transfer my other dog over as they have all the services like boarding therapy, too, and it is closer. She provided a very smart and engaged service to Paisley and last night Paisley slept all night with NO coughing until she awoke at 6am and then it was more like a quick phlegm clear. So, hopefully, the worst is way behind us. She has been happy and playful today and even eating a more hearty appetite.
As far as the autism world....my 10 year old is now considered Aspergers but we started off pretty rough. So exciting that Tommy is attending college. After years of intervention and modified diets and mountains of supplements and homeopathy he has made much progress. He is mainstreamed for much of life including football and hockey teams! I have lived my life on boards and forums seeking support and answers. Venting and celebrating! Then I could only have wished to have been able to spend time on a new puppy forum!!!


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

You are lucky to have mainstreamed him. It was not an option for Tommy. Sherron spent most of her days just dealing with him. For a while this last year, he would let me hug him, but this summer he has backed off if I started to touch him, so I of course realized and did not do the hug. He spent two summers with me and worked on data processing at the office. Everyone was warned to not engage him. Work questions only and a good morning Tommy were allowed. I think that gave him the confidence to attend College. And he had never driven a car before. After the first summer he went home and got his drivers license. He had to take the exam 3 times because he could not tolerate the instructer in the car with him. Then last summer he drove himself to and from Huntsville and really came out of his shell a lot. I have a guest house and he stayed in it and was responsible for his housework and breakfast. The evening meal was taken with us. I did not baby him as much as his mother did but also didn't ask him to do anything that I knew he could not do. Sherron said that two mothers in her society wanted to send their children to me for the summer--they were not kidding. But I didn't want the responsiblity of someone else's child.


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## Lola'smom (Dec 10, 2008)

paisley said:


> . In some defense of my purchase, the Petland where she was adopted from for many years was an independent franchise that openly advertised they did not get their pups from mills, only from local breeders that could easily be tracked and checked on. I came to find out too late that in the last year or two this local store was sold. I'm sorry to hear that.
> 
> I have had sick dogs before so that isn't a problem strictly for pet shop buyers.
> 
> If I felt at all my little dog was in grave danger or at the precipice of death I would be at Medvet in an instant ( or at my neighbor's house who is a medvet). .


Unfortunately, *ALL* Petland stores are independent franchises and ALL of them buy from puppy mills--despite the fact that all of them lie about it and have those little yellow cards in front of each puppy's glass cage that says "Stop Puppy Mills." They all say they buy only from local breeders, but they all use brokers such as Hunte and get the dogs from puppy mills in the mid-west. That is what it is.

Re your second point. Indeed non-pet shop puppies get sick as well. The converse, however, is the awful problem. That pet shop puppies, unfortunatly, are often sick, often die, and have been bred carelessly, and born in horrific circumstances. They get taken away from mothers too early. They are transported inhumanely by Brokers and treated and over treated to prop up these sick puppies for sale.

Unless one is a vet, it would be difficult to tell if a puppy is in grave danger. Even a vet can only give a very well educated opinion.

You came to the forum and asked the question and asked for an opinion. All of us recommended you take Paisley to another vet, ASAP.  Out of concern for your sweet puppy.

As for myself, I can say I gave you my best thoughts and shared my knowledge about Petland and its practices.

No dog lover or advocate is going to NOT be negative about buying from pet stores. That is just a given. Not only because of the health issues for the puppies, but because of the awful, inhuman business of puppy mills, which the pet shops and Petland uses to make millions and millions of dollars. Off the pain and suffering of dogs. And, for that reason, most animal advocates or breed lovers will be absolutely adamant about NOT buying from pet stores.

BTW--I thought of Paisley today and wondered how she was. When I took my puppy in to her this afternoon for his ckup and vaccine I even asked her if she'd ever heard of treating kennel cough with Doxy and the other antibiotic or to give a puppy such treatment without an x-ray or definitive DX of a bacterial infection and she said no. I asked about the 5-day injection protocol and she was puzzled--she had no idea what that would be.

I hope Paisley is doing better.


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## Lola'smom (Dec 10, 2008)

paisley said:


> She answered very strongly that they provide a service in an arrangement only but the records are 100% private and are never sent on to Petland or anyone else.


So the injections are more antibiotics? On top of the previous antibiotic and the one she is on orally now?

I would only expect a Petland-affiliated vet to say that. I can guarantee you it is not true. When we filed our complaint with the BBB, with the USDpt of Ag, the Humane Society and the NC AG's office, the first thing the Petland-affiliated vet did was fax our medical records to Petland. Without our permission or knowledge. So, I am speaking from personal experience. Also, for a recent article I wrote about Petland and their affiliate-vets I came across many, many people who'd had the samt thing done with their records.

So, that bit of advice was just because I know they do that and did not want you to go through same.


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## Lola'smom (Dec 10, 2008)

> But HSUS officials said their investigation uncovered evidence that shows Petland's main sources of puppies are puppy mills -- mass commercial breeding operations that churn out two to four million puppies each year.
> 
> Those puppies are raised in deplorable conditions and often have health problems, genetic defects, and behavioral issues, according to the HSUS.
> 
> ...


Read more: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2008/11/hsus_pet_stores02.html#ixzz0wMU2zADo


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## Lola'smom (Dec 10, 2008)

One last thing--in the Animal Planet investigation of Petland documentary the vet said that 100% of the Petland puppies she saw were sick. 100%


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