# The Neutering Thing Again



## Alcibides (Feb 14, 2012)

Lucky's vet said it would be all right to neuter him between four and six months. II read somewhere that 5 months was ideal because anything before and the pup would gain weight. So I thought okay, let's wait until 5 months. But then I read the earlier the better, because the mounting and marking can become ingrained and if so, even after the surgery they will continue. So I thought okay, the sooner the better (Lucky's been at this since-mointing not marking- we first visited him at 5 weeks and it's really become an issue). Are there reasons to wait until 5 months or later? Has anyone had it done for their male dog at 4 months and was it okay? Any advice/experience will be so greatly appreciated.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Alcibides said:


> Lucky's vet said it would be all right to neuter him between four and six months. II read somewhere that 5 months was ideal because anything before and the pup would gain weight. So I thought okay, let's wait until 5 months. But then I read the earlier the better, because the mounting and marking can become ingrained and if so, even after the surgery they will continue. So I thought okay, the sooner the better (Lucky's been at this since-mointing not marking- we first visited him at 5 weeks and it's really become an issue). Are there reasons to wait until 5 months or later? Has anyone had it done for their male dog at 4 months and was it okay? Any advice/experience will be so greatly appreciated.


The only time I've ever seen puppies neutered before 6 months has been shelter puppies, where the shelter rules won't allow them to leave without being neutered first.

I hate to tell you this, but mounting has more to do with excitement han anything else. Many dogs (male and female) do it all their lives, but puppies often do it because they are more excitable in general. All adult dogs MAY mark, males and females, neutered and entire. In Europe, it is not common to neuter male dogs at all, and they do NOT have a problem with the dogs marking in the house, because they teach them not to! you can teach a dog not to mount or hump also, it just takes a while.

Evidence is mounting that waiting until a dog is mature before spay or neuter (about a year old) is better for them physically than doing it earlier. Kodi was neutered at 7 months, but if I had it to do over, I would have waited longer. And if and when I get another dog, I will definitely wait longer. I would never do it before the pup was at least 6 months.


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

krandall said:


> The only time I've ever seen puppies neutered before 6 months has been shelter puppies, where the shelter rules won't allow them to leave without being neutered first.
> 
> I hate to tell you this, but mounting has more to do with excitement han anything else. Many dogs (male and female) do it all their lives, but puppies often do it because they are more excitable in general. All adult dogs MAY mark, males and females, neutered and entire. In Europe, it is not common to neuter male dogs at all, and they do NOT have a problem with the dogs marking in the house, because they teach them not to! you can teach a dog not to mount or hump also, it just takes a while.
> 
> Evidence is mounting that waiting until a dog is mature before spay or neuter (about a year old) is better for them physically than doing it earlier. Kodi was neutered at 7 months, but if I had it to do over, I would have waited longer. And if and when I get another dog, I will definitely wait longer. I would never do it before the pup was at least 6 months.


Right on the button, Karen. My vet refuses to neuter a male before the age of 7 months, to allow the urethra to attain full size, but there are other aspects as well. I had my last Australian Terrier neutered at about 8.5 months, and another time, would wait somewhat longer.

Sat, 28 Apr 2012 18:47:06 (PDT)


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## mamacjt (Aug 23, 2011)

I totally agree about waiting until they're a bit older. My Toby was neutered at 8 1/2 months, never ever "marked" and only "humps" now when he's really playing hard. It's more of a dominance thing than anything else. Years ago when I had girl dogs, they used to do this to each other all the time.


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## Alcibides (Feb 14, 2012)

a year old) is better for them physically than doing it earlier. Kodi was neutered at 7 months, but if I had it to do over, I would have waited longer. And if and when I get another dog, I will definitely wait longer. 

Hi and thanks. You say you wish you had waited longer Karen than 7 months for Kodi. What were the ill effects you wish you'd avoided?


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## rokipiki (Oct 15, 2010)

Roki is almost two and half and has both of his little balls. He stopped mounting (his sofa bed) when he was ten months old and never repeated it on other things or animals. We had some pee-pee issues but those were not marking issues. He did his marking in the house when he was puppy and now he is doing that outside. I have read very interesting article about spaying and neutering on Dogtor J webpage (he is sooo interesting for other dog health issues as well). He is not advocate of doing that at all, but if you have to do it, the advice is to wait as long as possible. It would be ideal do do it after growing process is over. he says that when removing testicles/ovaries you are depriving animal of sexual hormones that play very important role in the body. He described spaying as throwing adolescent girl that still has no periods into menopause and similar is with boys - they usually develop less bone and less muscle mass if they are neutered before growth period is over. 
Sometimes it is hard to cope with intact male (when more than two of his favourite ladies are in season), but Roki is sooo sweet latino lover boy that I would be really sorry not to see all that showing how he is handsome and good boy in front of a girl of his choice. OMG how beautiful is he when he is trying to get girl's attention and love!
I guess you have such contracts with breeders that you have no choice but to do the procedure. Here is other way round - breeders are encouraging people who buy their pups to show them because that is how, among other things, they build their reputation. People send photos and titles won on dogshows to the breeder and he/she puts them on his webpage. The larger number of champions from his breeding program, the better is reputation.
Only thing you can try is to do it after the first birthday! 

Marina&Roki


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

I can only answer for myself, but decided to get Timmy neutered at six months. My contract with the breeder stated to do this at that time and most people I know with male dogs had them neutered at six months as well. Timmy is in Puppy Basic Obedience and ironically or coincidentally half the class was out last week getting this done. I can say this though, Timmy was humping just about anything before his neuter and it seemed I was forever telling him "no" but now after a week of having it done humping has stopped completely. I've never had a dog before perhaps this stop in action is because he's is still not 100% since he had a very hard time recovering the first few days, but he certainly is acting like he's fine at this point. We never had a problem with marking but he's been lifting his leg to pee for quite a while so maybe that was only a matter of time. Most importantly you have to do what you feel most comfortable with, digest all the great info here and other places, there will be people on both sides of the fence with this decision.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Alcibides said:


> a year old) is better for them physically than doing it earlier. Kodi was neutered at 7 months, but if I had it to do over, I would have waited longer. And if and when I get another dog, I will definitely wait longer.
> 
> Hi and thanks. You say you wish you had waited longer Karen than 7 months for Kodi. What were the ill effects you wish you'd avoided?


He hasn't had any ill effects, but I suspect he would have stayed a little smaller if he hadn't been neutered before maturity. The biggest thing is that because I do dog sports, it is important to me to do everything I can to have the soundest dog possible. I now know that neutering later is better for joints, bones and physical development.

Kodi is FINE now, and may always be. But neutering later would have stacked the deck even more heavily in that direction.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

rokipiki said:


> Sometimes it is hard to cope with intact male (when more than two of his favourite ladies are in season), but Roki is sooo sweet latino lover boy that I would be really sorry not to see all that showing how he is handsome and good boy in front of a girl of his choice. OMG how beautiful is he when he is trying to get girl's attention and love!
> I guess you have such contracts with breeders that you have no choice but to do the procedure. Here is other way round - breeders are encouraging people who buy their pups to show them because that is how, among other things, they build their reputation. People send photos and titles won on dogshows to the breeder and he/she puts them on his webpage. The larger number of champions from his breeding program, the better is reputation.
> Only thing you can try is to do it after the first birthday!


While I agree that it is best to wait until the dog is mature, if you can, I also don't really think it is fair to keep an animal unneutered if they are not going to have the opportunity to breed. That's a lot of sexual frustration for them to handle just so we can see them show off for the girls. I know it is common in Europe not to neuter males, but it wouldn't be my choice unless I were planning to show in conformation and, later, breed.


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## Alcibides (Feb 14, 2012)

Thanks so much all. My head is swimming with contrasting information (recent studies that early is if not as good, better; suggestion that smaller dogs mature more quickly and can be "fixed" earlier. The increase in size thing is not a worry (thank goodness because he is enormous at 4 months, i.e.13 pounds) since we're not showing or competing, and the urethra thing surely bears a question to the vet. Think I'll take all this info (and I thank you for it) to the vet and talk it through. The humping thing (especially with his beloved Lambchops stuffed animal-he's on his fourth) is getting more frequent, but he's a delight in every way and we're ready for waiting for whatever is best. Six months surely seems to have a ring. thank you thank ou


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Alcibides said:


> Thanks so much all. My head is swimming with contrasting information (recent studies that early is if not as good, better; suggestion that smaller dogs mature more quickly and can be "fixed" earlier. The increase in size thing is not a worry (thank goodness because he is enormous at 4 months, i.e.13 pounds) since we're not showing or competing, and the urethra thing surely bears a question to the vet. Think I'll take all this info (and I thank you for it) to the vet and talk it through. The humping thing (especially with his beloved Lambchops stuffed animal-he's on his fourth) is getting more frequent, but he's a delight in every way and we're ready for waiting for whatever is best. Six months surely seems to have a ring. thank you thank ou


Where did you find these studies saying early neutering was better? This runs contrary to everything I have read. The studies I have read have run in the other direction.


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## Alcibides (Feb 14, 2012)

Here's one on pediatric neutering (horrifying term) and the controversy etc. and possible benefits etc. :
http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/spayneuter/early-spay-neuter.aspx


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

Just to throw in another opinion. We had our current male, Chico and also my daughter's dog, Magee" done" at 4 months. Neither dog has had any adverse effect. They are now 8 and 10 years old and both very healthy.

Don't know at exactly what age Finnegan was neutered, as he was a rescue.
We rarely, if ever, see any mounting, but I don't know if that means anything in regard to the age of neutering.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Alcibides said:


> Here's one on pediatric neutering (horrifying term) and the controversy etc. and possible benefits etc. :
> http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/spayneuter/early-spay-neuter.aspx


Well, first of all, this article is on the ASPCA web site. I would expect them to promote early spay/neuter. Second, it is NOT very recent. It was written in 2001, and although it says it was updated in 2006 (which is still a long time ago) it does not cite any newer studies.

The only benefit I'm completely sold on is that it prevents irresponsible people allowing their young dogs to reproduce.


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## Alcibides (Feb 14, 2012)

krandall said:


> Well, first of all, this article is on the ASPCA web site. I would expect them to promote early spay/neuter. Second, it is NOT very recent. It was written in 2001, and although it says it was updated in 2006 (which is still a long time ago) it does not cite any newer studies.
> 
> The only benefit I'm completely sold on is that it prevents irresponsible people allowing their young dogs to reproduce.


It's the tip of the iceberg if you google "Benefits of Early Neutering" I don't have the expertise to separate the wheat from the shaft in terms of the validity of the studies but there are some that seem connected to vet schools and others just to anecdotal evidence in dog chat rooms...enough to see that it's an open issue, controversial at best. Guess it's hard to find causal connections between neutering at 4 months and problems that occur in older dogs. Anyways, appreciate the wisdom and input of you veterans on the forum. Thanks all.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Alcibides said:


> It's the tip of the iceberg if you google "Benefits of Early Neutering" I don't have the expertise to separate the wheat from the shaft in terms of the validity of the studies but there are some that seem connected to vet schools and others just to anecdotal evidence in dog chat rooms...enough to see that it's an open issue, controversial at best. Guess it's hard to find causal connections between neutering at 4 months and problems that occur in older dogs. Anyways, appreciate the wisdom and input of you veterans on the forum. Thanks all.


Well, I did Google as you suggested, and in the first entries found these:

This first one, I think, has the best balance of both sides for someone who has to make a decision about "when". It's also the most recent, a 2012 paper.

http://www.2ndchance.info/spayneuter.htm

http://www.veterinarypracticenews.c...d-beyond/is-early-neutering-hurting-pets.aspx

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

I didn't find any, in the first page of results, that weren't driven by rescue mentality... And I'm assuming you do not intend to let Lucky out to ravage all the neighborhood virgins.


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## Rita Nelson (Jul 13, 2009)

If I might add to your confusion on neutering sooner rather than later, I followed Tucker's breeder's advise and waited. She suggested waiting until he was at least 9 mos. old if possible, but preferable one year old. Tucker was 18 mos. old when we finally had him neutered. He started lifting his leg inside the house before one year, but stopped after a day or so after we kept telling him "no" when he would do it. He very seldom "humps" like he did when he was a pup. Sometimes it's just a matter of staying on top of and stopping any behavior that is unexceptable to you.


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## DiegoCF_Boston (Apr 12, 2011)

Rita Nelson said:


> If I might add to your confusion on neutering sooner rather than later, I followed Tucker's breeder's advise and waited. She suggested waiting until he was at least 9 mos. old if possible, but preferable one year old. Tucker was 18 mos. old when we finally had him neutered. He started lifting his leg inside the house before one year, but stopped after a day or so after we kept telling him "no" when he would do it. He very seldom "humps" like he did when he was a pup. Sometimes it's just a matter of staying on top of and stopping any behavior that is unexceptable to you.


Same thing with Diego! He's not neutered yet...he's almost 16 months old. I honestly don't think I've ever seen him lift his leg at all inside the house and Jimmy definitely would've told me if he saw it. We haven't found any surprises messes yet. When he was a tiny pup, he definitely had his fair share of potty accidents but since he became potty trained, there hasn't been a potty mess inside the house since!

He _DOES_ hump every once and a while, but we always catch him as he begins and we tell him no...but it's usually when he's playing with another dog...which I guess it's lucky that he only plays with bigger dogs (there's Olive our bulldogge, then our friends Golden Lab/Rotti mix, then an English Mastiff and a Great Pyrenees at the dog park that we used to go to...).


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## misstray (Feb 6, 2011)

I had Brody neutered at 7 months and I'm honestly fine with that and have no regrets (this is probably made easier because it was a really easy surgery on him). The vet wanted Brody to wait until 7 months for tooth development and then she could remove any retained baby teeth at the same time. Brody has never shown any signs of wanting to mark (he sniffs everything like crazy,but has never gotten the idea he has to pee over top of it), he is a squatter (and his squat is getting more pronounced now, he used to sort of just stand there and go), he does occasionally hump but this is when he's very hyper/excited. Honestly, I'm not sure if neutering had any effect on these behaviours at all or if that is just how Brody is and would always be.


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

I am another who has waited. Augie was 17 months when the deed was done. He tried to hump our leg when we sat on the couch when he was quite small. Just a few times of 'no humping' and not putting our leg in a position where he could hump, and he stopped. I don't think he has lifted his leg in his entire life. And, at 17 months, Augie sailed through the surgery with no problem, with fast recovery. 

And then there is the OTHER one...Finn. He is a humper. But it is when they are playing and he gets so excited. If I say Finn 'no, off', he stops. He has marked in the house. He does not have free reign of the house, for that reason. He is nearly 14 months and we plan to have him neutered in the near future. Unplanned things keep coming up to interfere. 

I had read several articles about the hormones produced being important in bone development, and other things and decided that I wanted to wait. Also, I talked with our trainer and other members of our Rally classes, who were of the same opinion. 

Not everyone agrees and has to make up their own mind. I was more comfortable in waiting. And mine aren't allowed to roam and ravage the neighborhood virgins either. ound: Karen, I nearly laughed myself out of my chair when I read your comment! Thanks, for the laugh. This hasn't been the best week for me.


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