# Resource Guarding/warning growl



## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

Hi all....

Lincoln, who is now 17 weeks, and a bit over 8pds, is doing great overall! Potty training is well on its way - he sits by the door and/or rings his bell or barks. He knows the basic commands well, and unless he's distracted, he will follow them pretty consistently. He's less hesitant with new scenarios than when we first got him, which is great, too. 

What we've realized the last week or two is that he is doing what our puppy trainer said is "resource guarding" with some toys/sticks/himself if he doesn't want to be bothered or picked up. He will give a low growl (no aggressiveness/teeth showing) to warn us, which I know is important to not punish him for. The puppy class trainer said to work on respecting his boundaries when he does this, but to at the same time, help him learn to "drop it/trade" with treats so he is better comfortable with people taking things/messing with him if they need to. Funny side note is that he's fine with that when he's eating - we've always been in charge with the food bowl, making him wait until we release him to eat. 

Any tips, training tips, experiences with this issue? I don't want him to become a snippy, crabby guy. Is this a common phase they go through? I think he likes being picked up less, too now. :frown2:

Thanks!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TamaraCamera said:


> Hi all....
> 
> Lincoln, who is now 17 weeks, and a bit over 8pds, is doing great overall! Potty training is well on its way - he sits by the door and/or rings his bell or barks. He knows the basic commands well, and unless he's distracted, he will follow them pretty consistently. He's less hesitant with new scenarios than when we first got him, which is great, too.
> 
> ...


It may be partly a phase, and is partly just personality. Kodi is more seriously resource guard-y with"treasures" (usually something he knows he shouldn't have) with people. (me... I won't let anyone else deal with that) He will "trade" for something else of high value, though, when I do need to get something away from him. In other cases, like when it's kleenex, I've just decided it's less confrontational to let him eat it. It's gross to me, but won't hurt him. 

The girls don't resource guard from US at all, and never guard food. But they can be territorial with each other and with Kodi. Pixel jumped on Kodi when we were all in bed recently, and started really snarling at him. She immediately got tossed (gently) off the bed and told that wasn't acceptable. She was back on the bed in seconds, all hugs and kisses, and lay down nicely next to Kodi.

It sounds like your trainer is coaching you very well in how to handle this!


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> It may be partly a phase, and is partly just personality. Kodi is more seriously resource guard-y with"treasures" (usually something he knows he shouldn't have) with people. (me... I won't let anyone else deal with that) He will "trade" for something else of high value, though, when I do need to get something away from him. In other cases, like when it's kleenex, I've just decided it's less confrontational to let him eat it. It's gross to me, but won't hurt him.
> 
> The girls don't resource guard from US at all, and never guard food. But they can be territorial with each other and with Kodi. Pixel jumped on Kodi when we were all in bed recently, and started really snarling at him. She immediately got tossed (gently) off the bed and told that wasn't acceptable. She was back on the bed in seconds, all hugs and kisses, and lay down nicely next to Kodi.
> 
> It sounds like your trainer is coaching you very well in how to handle this!


Thanks for sharing your experiences! I know what you mean about tissues; etc. I just let him eat a tiny piece of styrofoam yesterday rather than pin him down to fish it out.

I really hope it's a phase, since it's not something he had been doing previously. I think I exacerbated things by recently going into his mouth to get things like tissues out. That, and the fact that the neighbor kids always want to pick him up, I think just annoyed him and made him feel he had to be more obvious with his boundaries.

I really hope we are able to curb the need to resource guard and growl. I hope that the drills help decrease it! :wink2:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TamaraCamera said:


> Thanks for sharing your experiences! I know what you mean about tissues; etc. I just let him eat a tiny piece of styrofoam yesterday rather than pin him down to fish it out.
> 
> I really hope it's a phase, since it's not something he had been doing previously. I think I exacerbated things by recently going into his mouth to get things like tissues out. That, and the fact that the neighbor kids always want to pick him up, I think just annoyed him and made him feel he had to be more obvious with his boundaries.
> 
> I really hope we are able to curb the need to resource guard and growl. I hope that the drills help decrease it! :wink2:


I think it's REALLY important NOT to let people pick him up when he's not in the mood. You have to make it clear to neighbor kids that he isn't a toy, he's a living being with feelings of his own. Tell them if they want to play with him, they must sit on the floor, and see if Lincoln will come over on his own to play with a toy or take a treat from them. NOT to be hugged or picked up! If he wants to play, fine. If he doesn't, make it clear to the kids that the best way to make friends with him is to let him come to them when he's ready. No dog should be forced to be handled when they don't feel like it just for a human's (even a child's) entertainment.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Resource guarding is something all dogs are capable of. It doesn't disappear on its own. A dog doesn't resource guard himself. That is simply a sensitivity to being picked up in certain situations. You have to find out what these situations are and work around them. Yes be careful outsiders are aware of this. Here are two good articles on this and how to counter condition to it. 
Resource Guarding Jean Donaldson http://www.4pawsu.com/Donaldson.pdf

Details on desensitizing. http://canineconcepts.co.za/articles/its-mine-a-k-a-resource-guarding/


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

davetgabby said:


> Resource guarding is something all dogs are capable of. It doesn't disappear on its own. A dog doesn't resource guard himself. That is simply a sensitivity to being picked up in certain situations. You have to find out what these situations are and work around them. Yes be careful outsiders are aware of this. Here are two good articles on this and how to counter condition to it.
> Resource Guarding Jean Donaldson http://www.4pawsu.com/Donaldson.pdf
> 
> Details on desensitizing. http://canineconcepts.co.za/articles/its-mine-a-k-a-resource-guarding/


Thanks to both of you for the insight. When we first got Lincoln, they approached him how you suggested. But I think as time went on, and he seemed to get used to them and be friendly with them/jumping and tail-wagging, things just sort of progressed, and then maybe went too far. Even sometimes when one of us wants to pick him up, he will resource growl.

Do a lot of puppies develop this tendency? I know you said all dogs are capable of it, but I feel like I "did damage" to his easy-going personality and the work to back out of it is going to be hard. :crying:


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## FancyNancy (Oct 7, 2009)

To my knowledgeable friends in the forum: 
Is it possible that my Henry is resource guarding me? Am I the resource he is protecting? He was once a friendly puppy who liked people and other animals and was good with people touching him and playing with him. 

Now, at age 6, he does the low growling thing when anyone (beside the people he trusts) tries to touch him! If they come to close he even snaps! Horrible! He does seem to pick certain people for "trust" - the mailman (strangely), and people he has grown to know over time. People tell me he is friendly when I am not around.

What is this about? Can I get him to stop growling and snapping through training or do I just have to accept that this is his personality?


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> I think it's REALLY important NOT to let people pick him up when he's not in the mood. You have to make it clear to neighbor kids that he isn't a toy, he's a living being with feelings of his own. Tell them if they want to play with him, they must sit on the floor, and see if Lincoln will come over on his own to play with a toy or take a treat from them. NOT to be hugged or picked up! If he wants to play, fine. If he doesn't, make it clear to the kids that the best way to make friends with him is to let him come to them when he's ready. No dog should be forced to be handled when they don't feel like it just for a human's (even a child's) entertainment.


Follow up question on when Lincoln growls if we try to pick him up when he doesn't want to be picked up.....

*The best plan it seems is to back off and wait/try again when he may be more ready to be picked up or cuddled

*Is there any training exercise you can recommend to help him decrease his tenseness in certain situations like this? I am working on using treats to reinforce drop it/take it/allowing me to touch or take his stick when he is into it so he doesn't associate it with negative. I wondered if there were similar exercises for touching/picking up?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TamaraCamera said:


> Thanks to both of you for the insight. When we first got Lincoln, they approached him how you suggested. But I think as time went on, and he seemed to get used to them and be friendly with them/jumping and tail-wagging, things just sort of progressed, and then maybe went too far. Even sometimes when one of us wants to pick him up, he will resource growl.
> 
> Do a lot of puppies develop this tendency? I know you said all dogs are capable of it, but I feel like I "did damage" to his easy-going personality and the work to back out of it is going to be hard. :crying:


As Dave said, when he growls about being picked up, it's NOT resource growling. Resource growling is to keep some "resource" (food, a prized toy, a favorite sleeping space) away from another dog or person.

He IS telling you that he doesn't really WANT to be picked up right then. Certainly not ALL puppies (dogs really) develop this tendency, and some show their displeasure in other ways. Often, a dog who doesn't want to be picked up will roll over on his back, and give what is called a "whale eye" (showing the whites of the eye) rather than growl. This is often misinterpreted as either "submissive" behavior, or that the dog wants a belly rub. What he's REALLY saying is, "I really don't WANT to be picked up right now!"

How you handle it depends on on a lot of things. It should be respected, IMO, and unless there is a good REASON to pick the dog up right then, let him be. As I said before, they aren't toys, they are creatures with their own needs and feelings. And some dogs just NEVER like being picked up.

Very young puppies rarely object to being picked up. But if they are picked up to swiftly, or in a way that makes them feel insecure about falling, they may start to object. If you HAVE to pick him up, stroke his back gently (NOT his head... Most dogs actually HATE having their heads stroked... they just put up with it because they love us) then slide one hand under his rib cage, and the other under his rear end, so he is fully supported as you lift him.

Better yet, if you don't HAVE to lift him, find a way to get him where you want him to go without lifting. That might mean luring him with food initially, then later turning that into intermittent rewards for going where you want him to go.

A "for instance" is Kodi. (again)  Kodi relaxes on the bed with us in the evening, then goes to bed in his crate at lights out. He went through a period where he didn't WANT to get off the nice warm bed, where he was already asleep. (if it were only up to me, I'd let him sleep with us, but Dave has a "no dogs in bed" rule  ) So he'd give this sort of grumbly growl when I picked him up to put him in his crate. He is very happy in his crate, so this wasn't that he had a problem with the crate... only that he didn't want to be moved. So we "sweetened the deal" by tossing a cookie in his crate and calling him to go to bed. His interest in food outweighed his desire not to wake up and move. 

Now it has just become our evening ritual. At bed time, all three dogs are told to "go to bed", and the first one in their crate gets the first cookie. It's a fun game, and everyone is happy.

Interestingly, the two times he has stayed on the bed, not wanted to wake up and growled since we started this (years ago now) it turned out that he was ill. Once with an ear infection, once with a Rabies vaccine reaction. So if your dog growls at you in a way he's never done before, be alert to the fact that he might be in pain or not feel well. (though I don't think that's what's happening with Lincoln right now)

I don't think you've created a "big problem". But I do think you have to look at things from his point of view, and find a solution that works for both of you.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

FancyNancy said:


> To my knowledgeable friends in the forum:
> Is it possible that my Henry is resource guarding me? Am I the resource he is protecting? He was once a friendly puppy who liked people and other animals and was good with people touching him and playing with him.
> 
> Now, at age 6, he does the low growling thing when anyone (beside the people he trusts) tries to touch him! If they come to close he even snaps! Horrible! He does seem to pick certain people for "trust" - the mailman (strangely), and people he has grown to know over time. People tell me he is friendly when I am not around.
> ...


Yes, it's certainly possible for a dog to resource guard "his" human. But I'm not at all sure that's what's happening with Henry. I don't think a dog should have to accept being handled by someone he doesn't want to touch him. I think we need to respect that.

That said, the snapping worries me, because it could get him (and you!) in trouble, especially because, if I remember right, you live in the city? I would see if you can get a good local positive trainer to come and see what's going on in person and try to help you with it. Most snapping behavior is fear-based, and it's quite possible that a good trainer could help you help Henry to feel more comfortable around strangers. In the mean time, s/he can give you tips on how to manage Henry in ways that make HIM feel safer, and therefore keep him out of situations where he feels the need to defend himself.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TamaraCamera said:


> Follow up question on when Lincoln growls if we try to pick him up when he doesn't want to be picked up.....
> 
> *The best plan it seems is to back off and wait/try again when he may be more ready to be picked up or cuddled
> 
> *Is there any training exercise you can recommend to help him decrease his tenseness in certain situations like this? I am working on using treats to reinforce drop it/take it/allowing me to touch or take his stick when he is into it so he doesn't associate it with negative. I wondered if there were similar exercises for touching/picking up?


The fact is that few dogs "like" to be cuddled. They put up with it for our sake. I don't think a dog SHOULD have to be cuddled just because we like it. If "picking up" becomes just something routine, to get something done, (like being placed in the car, or carried down a flight of stairs) in a matter of fact way, then he is immediately released again, he probably won't object as much.

As far as releasing the stick is concerned, what kind of stick is this? A stick you are worried about outdoors? Or a bully stick type thing? I don't take sticks from my dogs unless they want me to throw them for them. Teaching them that it's "safe" to give you their prizes stick is often as simple as taking the stick gently (by placing a hand on either side of the muzzle, very close, and saying "give". Don't pull, just wait. Eventually, they will let go) Then IMMEDIATELY tell them what a wonderful smart dog they are, and give the stick RIGHT back! Do this enough times, and they will trust that you aren't going to take away everything they give you.  (which is a message that most puppies get very early in life! )

If it's something VERY high value, like a bully stick, that causes a REALLY strong reaction in the dog. I simply don't give them those types of treats. They cause arguments between dogs and arguments between dogs and their owners. It really depends on the dog and the treat whether they can "handle it" or not.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

TamaraCamera said:


> Thanks to both of you for the insight. When we first got Lincoln, they approached him how you suggested. But I think as time went on, and he seemed to get used to them and be friendly with them/jumping and tail-wagging, things just sort of progressed, and then maybe went too far. Even sometimes when one of us wants to pick him up, he will resource growl.
> 
> Do a lot of puppies develop this tendency? I know you said all dogs are capable of it, but I feel like I "did damage" to his easy-going personality and the work to back out of it is going to be hard. :crying:


adversity to being picked up is not resource guarding . It most likely is fearfulness of some sort. Without seeing the dynamics of your household I can't guess as to the reason. My best advice is to have a trainer spend a bit of time with him to see what might be going on. It might simply be that he is undersocialized and that is quite workable with some guidance. We should always take growling seriously , so that's what I would recommend.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

FancyNancy said:


> To my knowledgeable friends in the forum:
> Is it possible that my Henry is resource guarding me? Am I the resource he is protecting? He was once a friendly puppy who liked people and other animals and was good with people touching him and playing with him.
> 
> Now, at age 6, he does the low growling thing when anyone (beside the people he trusts) tries to touch him! If they come to close he even snaps! Horrible! He does seem to pick certain people for "trust" - the mailman (strangely), and people he has grown to know over time. People tell me he is friendly when I am not around.
> ...


yes Nancy they can resource guard their humans. Dogs can become asocial with time for various reasons one of which is simply a lack of ongoing socialization. Nancy ,if he is snapping at people I really would recommend getting a trainer in. You need to watch for early signs of a trigger with certain people and that would be better resolved with some guidance.


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> As Dave said, when he growls about being picked up, it's NOT resource growling. Resource growling is to keep some "resource" (food, a prized toy, a favorite sleeping space) away from another dog or person.
> 
> He IS telling you that he doesn't really WANT to be picked up right then. Certainly not ALL puppies (dogs really) develop this tendency, and some show their displeasure in other ways. Often, a dog who doesn't want to be picked up will roll over on his back, and give what is called a "whale eye" (showing the whites of the eye) rather than growl. This is often misinterpreted as either "submissive" behavior, or that the dog wants a belly rub. What he's REALLY saying is, "I really don't WANT to be picked up right now!"
> 
> ...


Thanks for the extra tips! No problem just leaving him if he doesn't want to be picked up. I guess in my head, I was more thinking of when I am trying to groom him on the dryer and we're done and he's growled when I went to pick him up to put him on the floor. He's probably uncomfortable versus not wanting to be picked up though - scared by the heights and quick transfer to the floor. Wasn't sure if I should incorporate treats somehow for this. Or maybe luring like you said.

I've been doing some drills with him today on just giving him high-value treats when he's chewing on a toy of high-value, just to help recreate a positive association with us near him/his stuff when he's into it. He's so **** smart (true to the breed!), that after about 4 times, he just stopped chewing his toy and sitting and waiting for me to give him the treat! So then I have to try and get him interested in his toy again or wait for him to be interested in it to start the training again! I will then touch the toy, then treat, and then pick it up, then treat, and eventually take it for a second, treat, and give it back.


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

davetgabby said:


> adversity to being picked up is not resource guarding . It most likely is fearfulness of some sort. Without seeing the dynamics of your household I can't guess as to the reason. My best advice is to have a trainer spend a bit of time with him to see what might be going on. It might simply be that he is undersocialized and that is quite workable with some guidance. We should always take growling seriously , so that's what I would recommend.


I don't think it's a socialization issue, as, since Day 1, we've socialized him to many difference people, dogs, places, careful to watch his signs/signals. As he got more comfortable though, we may have paid less attention to his signs/signals, so that may be a bit of the issue. I think you're right and it's a fear thing - picking him up in the past when he maybe didn't want to be.


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> The fact is that few dogs "like" to be cuddled. They put up with it for our sake. I don't think a dog SHOULD have to be cuddled just because we like it. If "picking up" becomes just something routine, to get something done, (like being placed in the car, or carried down a flight of stairs) in a matter of fact way, then he is immediately released again, he probably won't object as much.
> 
> As far as releasing the stick is concerned, what kind of stick is this? A stick you are worried about outdoors? Or a bully stick type thing? I don't take sticks from my dogs unless they want me to throw them for them. Teaching them that it's "safe" to give you their prizes stick is often as simple as taking the stick gently (by placing a hand on either side of the muzzle, very close, and saying "give". Don't pull, just wait. Eventually, they will let go) Then IMMEDIATELY tell them what a wonderful smart dog they are, and give the stick RIGHT back! Do this enough times, and they will trust that you aren't going to take away everything they give you.  (which is a message that most puppies get very early in life! )
> 
> If it's something VERY high value, like a bully stick, that causes a REALLY strong reaction in the dog. I simply don't give them those types of treats. They cause arguments between dogs and arguments between dogs and their owners. It really depends on the dog and the treat whether they can "handle it" or not.


I was meaning anything - toys, bully stick, Himalayan chew, sticks outside. I thought the "resource guarding" drills should be applied to all things - teaching them, through small steps/treats/praise, that they can "give it/take it" with us. Should I only be doing those drills with certain items?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TamaraCamera said:


> Thanks for the extra tips! No problem just leaving him if he doesn't want to be picked up. I guess in my head, I was more thinking of when I am trying to groom him on the dryer and we're done and he's growled when I went to pick him up to put him on the floor. He's probably uncomfortable versus not wanting to be picked up though - scared by the heights and quick transfer to the floor. Wasn't sure if I should incorporate treats somehow for this. Or maybe luring like you said.
> 
> I've been doing some drills with him today on just giving him high-value treats when he's chewing on a toy of high-value, just to help recreate a positive association with us near him/his stuff when he's into it. He's so **** smart (true to the breed!), that after about 4 times, he just stopped chewing his toy and sitting and waiting for me to give him the treat! So then I have to try and get him interested in his toy again or wait for him to be interested in it to start the training again! I will then touch the toy, then treat, and then pick it up, then treat, and eventually take it for a second, treat, and give it back.


It sounds like you are doing good work on him guarding his toys. If he's growling when you go to lift him OFF the dryer AFTER grooming, I'm almost certain that he's afraid of the quick trip through the air. Try stroking him first, talking to him gently, picking him up as I mentioned in the other post, and putting him against your body. Then SLOWLY lower him to the ground and pop a treat in his mouth. If he finds that he's not flying thorough the air (from his perspective... I know that's not what you're doing!) AND gets a cookie when he's back on the ground, he will probably look more favorably on getting moved off the grooming area.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

TamaraCamera said:


> I don't think it's a socialization issue, as, since Day 1, we've socialized him to many difference people, dogs, places, careful to watch his signs/signals. As he got more comfortable though, we may have paid less attention to his signs/signals, so that may be a bit of the issue. I think you're right and it's a fear thing - picking him up in the past when he maybe didn't want to be.


socialization includes being picked up by not only you ,but strangers. Yeah you really need to teach this. It is vital that he be accepting of being picked up. There are too many ways that this is part of every day necessities .A vet needs to be able to pick your dog up. etc. etc.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TamaraCamera said:


> I was meaning anything - toys, bully stick, Himalayan chew, sticks outside. I thought the "resource guarding" drills should be applied to all things - teaching them, through small steps/treats/praise, that they can "give it/take it" with us. Should I only be doing those drills with certain items?


I'd be careful, at least for now, to only work on it with things he's likely to be willing to let you work with without him getting highly aroused. What those things are, you will have to decide.

If a dog is TOO highly aroused, and you try to attempt any sort of "trade" game, you can end up getting bitten. No matter how sweet and gentle the dog is the rest of the time. So practice with lower value items until you've got those down cold. And, honestly, I like giving the same thing back better than trading in most instances. I think it promotes trust between you and the dog. I know sometimes, especially with a puppy, and all they are likely to get into, you HAVE to "trade", for their own safety, but I'd do as much giving back as possible.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> socialization includes being picked up by not only you ,but strangers. Yeah you really need to teach this. It is vital that he be accepting of being picked up. There are too many ways that this is part of every day necessities .A vet needs to be able to pick your dog up. etc. etc.


BUT... and I think this is a HUGE difference, while I think it is important for all dogs to tolerate knowledgeable, necessary handling, that's a LOT different than being picked up and "cuddled" by neighbor children, which is, from what I read, what's been happening with Lincoln. I DON'T think dogs should be expected to put up with that sort of unnecessary, and probably (unintentionally) frightening handling.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I'm not sure what is going on with your dog. Thatt's why I suggest a trainer see first hand. Yes Karen most dogs do not like hugging and you should discourage anyone from picking up or hugging someone else's dog. But is vital to teach a young puppy to be able to enjoy /tolerate this from an early age. It just makes them more accepting of this down the road. Here is a very good article on this ... Handling & Gentling | Dog Star Daily


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> I'm not sure what is going on with your dog. Thatt's why I suggest a trainer see first hand. Yes Karen most dogs do not like hugging and you should discourage anyone from picking up or hugging someone else's dog. But is vital to teach a young puppy to be able to enjoy /tolerate this from an early age. It just makes them more accepting of this down the road. Here is a very good article on this ... Handling & Gentling | Dog Star Daily


That's a great article, Dave, but it should not be done by neighborhood children. (which has been going on here) I agree with you that a good trainer would be a great idea. (I think I mentioned that in one of Tamara's question/threads because there IS a lot going on with this puppy) But I also don't think ANY puppy should have to put up with neighbor-children picking them up and hugging or cuddling them. There is too much room for children (or many well-meaning but non-dogs-savvy adult neighbors/friends!) to teach the puppy things we don't want them to learn... like being tactile-defensive to protect themselves.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

oh I agree Karen. Like I said, no one should pick up or hug a dog they don't know Generally dogs don't like this . All we can do is condition them hopefully when they are young so that they are at least tolerant of it should someone try to pick them up or hug them. Most bites are to the owners children and they should be very careful even when picking up and holding their own dog. But we must try to condition our dogs to at least be tolerant of a strangers need or attempt to handle them , especially for vets or groomers.


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> It sounds like you are doing good work on him guarding his toys. If he's growling when you go to lift him OFF the dryer AFTER grooming, I'm almost certain that he's afraid of the quick trip through the air. Try stroking him first, talking to him gently, picking him up as I mentioned in the other post, and putting him against your body. Then SLOWLY lower him to the ground and pop a treat in his mouth. If he finds that he's not flying thorough the air (from his perspective... I know that's not what you're doing!) AND gets a cookie when he's back on the ground, he will probably look more favorably on getting moved off the grooming area.


I think you're absolutely right on with this! Looking back now, I can remember sometimes he would put his paws out, like he was trying to brace himself. Poor buddy...I didn't realize he was scared at the time since I was talking to him!!! Glad I am more aware now.


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

davetgabby said:


> socialization includes being picked up by not only you ,but strangers. Yeah you really need to teach this. It is vital that he be accepting of being picked up. There are too many ways that this is part of every day necessities .A vet needs to be able to pick your dog up. etc. etc.


How should I work on that? I guess I assumed that because he was okay with people picking him up until just recently, that he was alright with it. But I guess he just didn't realize he could protest.

Regarding helping with the picking up (and going back to the dynamic where he is alright with it), how should I work on this?

Today was another example of one of the neighbor kids wanting to pet/play with him while Lincoln was laying outside in the sun and chewing happily on his toy, chilling alone. He growled lowly, so I told the boy that Lincoln just wanted to chill on his own right now and let him be.


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> I'd be careful, at least for now, to only work on it with things he's likely to be willing to let you work with without him getting highly aroused. What those things are, you will have to decide.
> 
> If a dog is TOO highly aroused, and you try to attempt any sort of "trade" game, you can end up getting bitten. No matter how sweet and gentle the dog is the rest of the time. So practice with lower value items until you've got those down cold. And, honestly, I like giving the same thing back better than trading in most instances. I think it promotes trust between you and the dog. I know sometimes, especially with a puppy, and all they are likely to get into, you HAVE to "trade", for their own safety, but I'd do as much giving back as possible.


Good tips! I actually tried it today with both low and high value items. Instead of using "drop it" which I try to use when he is chewing on items he shouldn't be, I am trying to teach him "give it/take it" so he realizes that we can give it back and forth between us. With a low value item, like a cow hoof, I would give him a treat when I could touch it and take it, but then give it back to him.

He was chewing on a new chew food toy that he really got into in his crate. While it went well overall, I realize now I probably shouldn't have done the exercise while he was in his crate. But I started by just throwing high value treats near him so he'd take a pause from chewing, and clicked and said "Yes." Then I would touch his toy while doing the same. And then I moved to "take it" and "give it" to him while treating and praising. He did growl/snarl initially, but moved past that quickly. I think next time, if he's in his crate, I won't do it there. When I wanted to take the chew toy from him (since he was plowing through it quickly, and only wanted him to have it for a bit to see if it agreed with his tummy), I did "take it/give it" and gave him a high value stuffed Kong instead.

Does all this sound good? I will go back to the low value toys for the drill initially. I just need to have a way to get the high value toy from him, like that new chew toy, sometimes.

I swear - this puppy parenting/teaching good manners isn't for the faint of heart! I am so afraid I am going to royally screw him up so he's a yappy dog for good!


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## w8in (Feb 11, 2016)

My Hank when we go for a ride , we get home he jumps out growling like he's going after something, if there is nothing there he just follows me in the house. If there is something there he goes and checks it out. Hubbs thinks he is trying to protect me. I have no clue! I try to keep him from doing it but he does and I don't know how to get him to stop. He's not hurting anything.


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> BUT... and I think this is a HUGE difference, while I think it is important for all dogs to tolerate knowledgeable, necessary handling, that's a LOT different than being picked up and "cuddled" by neighbor children, which is, from what I read, what's been happening with Lincoln. I DON'T think dogs should be expected to put up with that sort of unnecessary, and probably (unintentionally) frightening handling.


I feel so bad....it seems like my lack of knowledge about reading his body language has made him fearful and needing to protect his things/himself. I hope I didn't do permanent damage. I thought we were doing such a good job with socialization since he was meeting so many people, going to the bus stop daily, seemed excited to be doing so.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TamaraCamera said:


> How should I work on that? I guess I assumed that because he was okay with people picking him up until just recently, that he was alright with it. But I guess he just didn't realize he could protest.
> 
> Regarding helping with the picking up (and going back to the dynamic where he is alright with it), how should I work on this?
> 
> Today was another example of one of the neighbor kids wanting to pet/play with him while Lincoln was laying outside in the sun and chewing happily on his toy, chilling alone. He growled lowly, so I told the boy that Lincoln just wanted to chill on his own right now and let him be.


I think you really, REALLY need someone local, who can WATCH and SEE what is happening to help you sort this out. My gut feeling is that a lot of this has to do with him being scared of HOW he's been picked up in the past. But I can't tell you that for sure, because we haven't actually seen what is going on.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TamaraCamera said:


> Good tips! I actually tried it today with both low and high value items. Instead of using "drop it" which I try to use when he is chewing on items he shouldn't be, I am trying to teach him "give it/take it" so he realizes that we can give it back and forth between us. With a low value item, like a cow hoof, I would give him a treat when I could touch it and take it, but then give it back to him.
> 
> He was chewing on a new chew food toy that he really got into in his crate. While it went well overall, I realize now I probably shouldn't have done the exercise while he was in his crate. But I started by just throwing high value treats near him so he'd take a pause from chewing, and clicked and said "Yes." Then I would touch his toy while doing the same. And then I moved to "take it" and "give it" to him while treating and praising. He did growl/snarl initially, but moved past that quickly. I think next time, if he's in his crate, I won't do it there. When I wanted to take the chew toy from him (since he was plowing through it quickly, and only wanted him to have it for a bit to see if it agreed with his tummy), I did "take it/give it" and gave him a high value stuffed Kong instead.
> 
> ...


Oh, boy. I do NOT like the sound of him snarling at you over a toy in his crate. If it were me, I would NOT be giving him toys or chew items that create that strong a response in him at this point, ESPECIALLY if they are things that you know you will have to take away later.

While I think a dog's crate should be his safe haven, and he shouldn't be bothered there, I ALSO don't like the sound of a puppy who is snarling at you in a situation like that. You REALLY need professional help to get this back on track.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

w8in said:


> My Hank when we go for a ride , we get home he jumps out growling like he's going after something, if there is nothing there he just follows me in the house. If there is something there he goes and checks it out. Hubbs thinks he is trying to protect me. I have no clue! I try to keep him from doing it but he does and I don't know how to get him to stop. He's not hurting anything.


I don't think he's protecting you. How old is he. Many puppies go though fear periods, where various things in the environment are alarming to them. They do sometime growl, then "check it out" then decide it's not dangerous. Do not try to stop him from growling... Dogs who are taught not to growl are the ones who can "bite without warning" later in life. And let him investigate (but don't push him into it... Let him take his time) anything in the environment that he's worried about. That's how they learn!


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> Oh, boy. I do NOT like the sound of him snarling at you over a toy in his crate. If it were me, I would NOT be giving him toys or chew items that create that strong a response in him at this point, ESPECIALLY if they are things that you know you will have to take away later.
> 
> While I think a dog's crate should be his safe haven, and he shouldn't be bothered there, I ALSO don't like the sound of a puppy who is snarling at you in a situation like that. You REALLY need professional help to get this back on track.


We are in puppy training class and had worked with a trainer initially. However, the trainer is out of town for 2 weeks right now. I will ask the puppy trainer if he can come over. This is all such new behavior - he has never snarled before. But the other drills we were working on were working well.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TamaraCamera said:


> I feel so bad....it seems like my lack of knowledge about reading his body language has made him fearful and needing to protect his things/himself. I hope I didn't do permanent damage. I thought we were doing such a good job with socialization since he was meeting so many people, going to the bus stop daily, seemed excited to be doing so.


He's still young, and this can be turned around. You just need someone local, who can teach you how to read his body language, and help you teach HIM to feel more comfortable again!


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> Oh, boy. I do NOT like the sound of him snarling at you over a toy in his crate. If it were me, I would NOT be giving him toys or chew items that create that strong a response in him at this point, ESPECIALLY if they are things that you know you will have to take away later.
> 
> While I think a dog's crate should be his safe haven, and he shouldn't be bothered there, I ALSO don't like the sound of a puppy who is snarling at you in a situation like that. You REALLY need professional help to get this back on track.


That was a brand new treat toy that I gave him, so I won't give it to him again right now since it elicits too strong of a response.


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## w8in (Feb 11, 2016)

krandall said:


> I don't think he's protecting you. How old is he. Many puppies go though fear periods, where various things in the environment are alarming to them. They do sometime growl, then "check it out" then decide it's not dangerous. Do not try to stop him from growling... Dogs who are taught not to growl are the ones who can "bite without warning" later in life. And let him investigate (but don't push him into it... Let him take his time) anything in the environment that he's worried about. That's how they learn!


I let him do it now, there was no stoping him He is a year old. almost 13 months. He has never hurt anyone even if another dog is out he just growls wags his tail and wants to play. Wish I knew more about the forum I want to post a question and not sure where to post it.


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## Eveningpiper (Sep 23, 2015)

w8in said:


> Wish I knew more about the forum I want to post a question and not sure where to post it.


To post a question just select a relevant discussion topic from the dropdown box of the front page labelled FORUMS and then HAVANESE DISCUSSIONS.Then click on POST A NEW THREAD link on the left and you can post your question. Or if your question relates to an existing thread, just post it there.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

w8in said:


> I let him do it now, there was no stoping him He is a year old. almost 13 months. He has never hurt anyone even if another dog is out he just growls wags his tail and wants to play. Wish I knew more about the forum I want to post a question and not sure where to post it.


Oh, sorry. From his photo, he looked like a young puppy. This is another case where it's hard to know what's going on for sure, long distance. Wagging tails do not always mean that the dog is happy or friendly and "want to play". It can also mean that they are over-stimulated too. Likewise, sometimes dogs make noises that people interpret as growing that are not really growling at all, but other types of vocalizations. My youngest one is always muttering under her breath. I can see how people could interpret it as growling, but it's just "talking" she even does it when she's totally relaxed and snuggling against you. So without actually SEEING what your dog is doing, it's hard to say how to address it.

This is another case where you might want to talk to a local positive trainer, and see if they can give you some tips on how to handle the situation after they observe what's going on in real life.


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> Oh, boy. I do NOT like the sound of him snarling at you over a toy in his crate. If it were me, I would NOT be giving him toys or chew items that create that strong a response in him at this point, ESPECIALLY if they are things that you know you will have to take away later.
> 
> While I think a dog's crate should be his safe haven, and he shouldn't be bothered there, I ALSO don't like the sound of a puppy who is snarling at you in a situation like that. You REALLY need professional help to get this back on track.


I think I was being overzealous when I described it as snarling. It was more of a growl, but just a bigger growl. Nonetheless, it was a good learning that that particular toy was too high in value to do this training with right now.

I did some training with *very* high value treats today (meats and cheeses) and he did great. Did some grooming exercises, mixed with taking him down from the dryer after grooming and using those high value treats. He couldn't get enough and was very willing. I think I will keep those treats for only grooming, so he associates those together as positive.

He is also getting much better with "drop it" which is something I didn't do enough training for early on (good learning for me - should have been a top 3 thing to teach!). With the not as high valued toys like that food toy earlier today, he is doing very well with the "drop" or "trade" - to the point that he doesn't even want to re-engage with the toy since he knows what's coming instead. I was using another pretty high-value treat - training treats that taste like bacon, or bacon/hot dog pieces.

I think with the neighborhood kids (or even us), when he doesn't want to be bothered, we have to respect that boundary better. But I also think we need to take a step back and go back to basics again, reminding them to take it slowly even though he knows them (and is most times very friendly with them) and even use treats.

I think I just jumped the gun and made things seem worse than they are because I am nervous this will be a permanent aspect of him. But I do get the need to actively work on this now!


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## FancyNancy (Oct 7, 2009)

Thank you my darling karen! Your advice is always on target. xoxoxo


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