# Importance of a good breeder



## ama0722

I wanted to start this thread after a few threads of people purchasing dogs from not good breeders and pet stores.

I will start off by sharing my story of my Dora. I hope those of you who have stories will share too.

I got Belle from a good breeder and wanted another dog that was calmer and would help release some energy from Belle. We found a breeder of Cotons in our area who had Havanese as well. There were two havanese puppies left who were 5 months old. We went and we met them, the one I wanted was a boy so we ended up getting Dora cause we wanted a girl. We went to the breeders home and there was Dora. She was absolutely adorable and she was calm and easy going (everything Belle wasn't and the behaviorist said we should get for Belle). We didn't make a rushed decision but a week later decided to get her. I did go to the breeders home and see where she was raised, she was a nice older woman who was a hobby breeder. Dora's parents weren't health tested but I didn't know about that back then. Dora was pretty shy right when we met her. She was in a xpen with a pygmy goat (something else the breeder bred another red flag- many animals). At the time I thought it was so cute of Dora, she was running around with the goat but rewatching that video, I now realize Dora was just unsocialized and was scared of us. She was probably saying take the goat don't take me.

We get Dora home and she is extremely submissive. She adores Belle and wants to be with her but really doesn't want to interact with us. When we take her for walks, she is 10 feet behind us while Belle is 20 feet ahead. She also had issues with submissive urination. You would stand over her and she would lay down. She also didn't really want you petting her but she would lay there scared. She did bond with me first and didn't like my husband for a month or two. She slept in a cage fine, never a peep out of her. Probably what she was used to and it was her time to be alone from us. I was having trouble walking them by myself cause of the leash thing so I decided to enroll Dora in a puppy class. Dora started doing way better at home, peeing less, she would wag her tail more when I approached. She even started walking closer to me on our daily walks. Dora was voted the most improved puppy in our class and she graduated. She loved going there and I think she just liked being with a bunch of her own kind.

Well speed up- I kept Dora in many classes and spent a lot of money (way more than the price of a good Neezer from a great breeder) and my time training her to become a more balanced dog. Dora had titles in obedience, agility, rally, she is a canine good citizen, she has a therapy dog certificate. Dora will be 4 next month. I have beyond submerged her in socialization. Dora is a wonderful dog in our home and she will always be here. I absolutely regret getting her from a backyard breeder. I supported this person and because of me purchasing her there, I know more dogs were probably produced and may not have been as lucky to get the training and love Dora has. They very well may have gone to a shelter or if lucky into Havanese Rescue.

As from the many photos and videos I have shared, Dora is a good dog and a happy dog. She truly lives in the moment like many dogs do. However to this day, Dora will be thrilled when people come over and then when they pet her she shys back and runs to one of us. If I take her to a place by herself, she often gets overwhelmed and scared and her tail is down. She happens to be way too cute and gets tons of attention. She does way better with Belle and Dash cause they are busy jumping on the people taking the attention away.

I also have to say so far we have been blessed in the health regard and I hope it continues that way. Dora doesn't come from any health tested family members but she hasn't needed expensive vet care. I hope it continues that way but if not, she has a family that loves her and made the commitment to her.

I just wanted to share about my little girl and why I absolutely stress how important a good breeder is and early socialization is something you can't get back and it's worth waiting for. I hope those of you who read this share your stories too.

Amanda & Dora


----------



## Lina

Amanda, thank you so much for sharing your story about your incredible and adorable Dora. I am sure that she is beyond thrilled to have found such a wonderful family as yours and it is so wonderful that you were able to get her, but I completely understand you regretting ever having done so for supporting a breeder that wasn't completely responsible. I really hope that your story is eye-opening for people and that it will help others make the right decision when they find themselves looking for a puppy of their own, be it the first, the second or the umpteenth dog they own.


----------



## Jennifer Clevenger

I also am glad that Dora found her way to you. She is so much better because of it! I always tell my puppy buyers that I have done my job up to the point that they pick up their puppies now it's their turn. They have a blank slate to write what type of dog their puppy will be. In my contract, they should take them to class to start the socialization process. They should also be willing to take them everywhere they are allowed. Obedience training is a must. The breeder should be breeding dogs with great dispositions. Introducing them to all kinds of situations at an early age such as bathing, blow dryers, nail trimming, grooming and such. Then it is up to the buyer to carry it on. If you do the time when the puppy is young, you will have a great dog when he/she matures.


----------



## Poornima

Amanda, thanks for starting this great thread. 

Dora is so fortunate to have found you. She is adorable and so well adjusted that I wouldn't have guessed her background when we met you and her. You were definitley her angel. 

I would just like to share my experience in finding a good breeder. I was a first time puppy owner and fortunately didn't know anything about puppy mills. The most logical approach for me was to read a number of books on dog breeds, select the breed that had the characteristics that I was looking for. After selecting the breed, I looked up AKC, then contacted the parent club of Havanese (HCA), they provided me a list of reputable Havanese breeders who in turn provided the contacts for reputable breeders who were not listed with HCA. I went to shows, talked to people who owned Havanese (as pets as well as show dogs). All the breeders I talked to were eager to help, patient and promt in their correspondence. Being a first time puppy owner, the support and guidance of a good breeder is very valuable. 

I hope that this thread will educate people in their search for a good breeder and keep them from buying from back yard breeders and puppy mills.


----------



## lfung5

Thanks for sharing your story Amanda. I was like you when I bought my first Havanese. I had no idea what to look for etc. I didn't even know what a puppymill was. Turns out Bella came from a puppymill broker. The woman loved her, but bought her at an auction and sold her to me at full price, 2000.00 4.5 years ago! When I discovered Bella had a liver shunt, the lady was kind enough to give me my 2000.00 back to put towards the 4000.00 in surgery costs. 

I was much more careful with Freddie and found a breeder through the HCA referral list. Even though the breeder was referred by them......she was not good at all! You still must do your homework even if a breeder is referred by the HCA. When freddie had luxating patella's, the breeder would not return my calls! 

When buying a pup, do you homework and then do it again!


----------



## ama0722

Jennifer- See I think that is a problem with getting dogs who aren't socialized early on by breeders who pour their hearts into their pups. Dora wasn't a blank slate and unfortunately I think she will always be cautious towards people. We tried undoing a lot of her preconceptions but they come out in the background.

Poornima- And if you saw her at my home you would probably never guess. She is a doll and just full of love and personality at home. When we go out she tends to do pretty well if one of the other dogs are with her. When she is totally alone she can get overwhelmed if it is too busy of an area. On the other hand, Dora tends to be the most well behaved dog of my pack! Belle who I got the earliest being the worst!!! <BG> Go figure! I can completely trust Dora off leash even if there are people around. Dash has ran across the street to visit the neighbor and Belle has ran to everyone who even slightly smiles! Jim and I were talking though about how horrible it would be if Dora escaped or got lost. How frightened she would be without her family. I just shiver to think about that scenario cause she wouldn't go to strangers, if anything she would run.

Missy- yeah, I don't think I saw the red flags until I learned more later on. I was at the breeders home twice which was lovely (to be honest she sold a lot of pretty high priced pets and no health testing or showing... it could be profitable) and Dora was completely groomed and gorgeous. She was very friendly inviting us into her home. I think she loved her animals she just had so many that no way could she pick up each little animal and socialize it. These are companion dogs and I really think when they don't get early socialization that it is even harder on them.

Linda- Thank goodness she has you as her mommy though. I think for each of us who kept our dogs regardless of the baggage, there are many many more that go into shelters, rescue, or get put down. I also think you bring up a good point, the importance of doing all the research regardless of what list a breeder is on.

Thanks everyone for sharing and I hope more do. I think we can do a lot even on this forum to educate others and do the best for this breed 

Amanda


----------



## carohav

Amanda,

You certainly hit the nail on the head! The importance on socialization can not be underscored enough! That is the only way to get happy, well adjusted puppy and it takes alot of work. Yes, you can buy a cheaper puppy, but remember, that puppy might not be such a bargain in the long run.


----------



## Lilly's mom

I have a story to share just not enough time right now. "I'll be back" as the terminator says. ound:


----------



## mckennasedona

Thank you for your post Amanda. I don't have any horror stories because both of my Havs and my Sheltie came from great breeders. It's really fun to visit Elaine at her house or a dog show. Almost the minute you walk in a puppy is put in your arms to hug and play with (assuming they are not newborns, of course). It's all about socialization. 

We did have a dog named Maggie who looked vaguely Havanese and had definite issues. I don't know her breed for certain, but luckily she was adopted by my MIL the same day she was turned into the pound because if they had done temperment testing on her she probably would have been put down. She was a fear biter and she would not allow certain parts of her body to be touched for a long time. We eventually got her out of that. She was a sweet girl and we loved her dearly and were thankful that she ended up with us as we knew how to deal with her issues. We still miss that little scamp.


----------



## irnfit

Thanks Amanda. I'm sorry you felt you had to explain your feelings, but glad you started this thread. Maybe people will read it and see why it is so important to get a dog from a reputable breeder.

I got Kodi from Next Day Pets. I had done some research at the time, but thanks to the forum, I know much more now. Anyway, I really lucked out with him. Even though they were hobby breeders, he was raised with the family and was not crated much from what I saw. It was an impulsive buy, but I wouldn't change anything. He has great lines with breeders who do all the testing. His sire was a champion and I think the breeder sold him because she decided not to breed him. But the people she sold him to had a different idea and that's how I got Kodi. He is very sweet, a little shy, but once he gets to know you, he is a lover.

DH knew I wanted a second Hav and as a surprise, he found Shelby through an ad in the paper. I could have said no, but he really thought he was doing something so great. I call her my rescue because I got her from a backyard breeder. They were nice enough people, but learned a lot after I got her. Shelby was raised in a home with small children, and I think she has a problem with kids because of that. She does not like most kids although some children she will get along with. She has luxating patellas that don't cause her any problems (fingers crossed) and she developed an under bite.

If the day comes that I get another Hav, I will definitely go to a breeder who does the proper testing and raises pups with the right temperment. I already have a list (just in case DH decides to surprise me again) :biggrin1:


----------



## nanatotwo

Since you have started this thread I have more questions 
I am very anxiously waiting for a puppy that hasn't even been bred yet but will and out of that litter I hope I get the coloring I'm longing for. I am using a very good breeder so I know it's worth the wait time....which is VERY hard for me as most of you will understand. So I look often at websites and listings, longing for a baby but what I wish were available would be a website that listed the folks with questionable breeding practices. The more I think of it the more I realize how hard something like that would be. But it sure would come in handy to just look up a "rating" of breeders.
Happy New Year to eveyone!


----------



## marjrc

I'm sure many of us would say "If I had to do it over again..... " , but we do our best until we know better, then, we do better. I had no idea what puppy mills were, nor that pet shops sold sick pups sired in these conditions. I was actually looking at ads in stores and papers so I could get some kind of small dog cheap!

Luckily, I did happen to contact someone in Cdn. Hav rescue as I had fallen in love with this breed, but not with the price tag. She said she rarely had rescues (a good thing!), but referred me to a breeder who just had had a litter. I found my Ricky, though we didn't choose him until we met for pickup. We could have gone to visit a week earlier (any earlier and the breeder didn't want, due to the pups not having all their shots). It's a 3 hr. drive from here, each way, so we opted to trust and simply choose once we got there. Only one out of 4 male pups was spoken for and the first one I took in my arms appealed to me. The breeder said he was very much an alpha and quite stubborn already, and vocal. Not a best choice for a fist time puppy owner so we played with Ricky and cuddled and well..... the rest is history. 

I did ask questions about health testing because I had found some sites and did know a little bit about what to ask. I didn't insist though, when I was told "All my puppies have straight legs. I don't need to soap them and make them get overly cold for picture-taking to know that." or "I have never had any sick pups in my litters. They are all very strong and healthy." I didnt' know about offa.org. As it happens, Ricky's sire is rated as good in all health tests and his dam as well. Phew!! But I didn't know to check at the time. I just wanted a Hav so badly by then!

Sammy came from a mutual friend, originated in Hungary, and though he has his European "papers", he isn't quite standard at all. But then, Ricky isn't quite either. I have no health test results on Sammy's parents or any of his relatives, though their info is posted at the Hungarian havanese Gallery, so ..... we shall see what we shall see. :suspicious: 

Yup, to do it again, I'd either get a rescue and well, no questions asked, just because. Or if I got a Hav from a breeder, I'd make darn sure I had a great relationship with the breeder first and that ALL my questions and concerns were addressed to my satisfaction. I would likely try to think with my head before thinking with my heart.

ahem....... yeah, right..... ! ound:

Amanda, great idea to start this thread and I thank everyone for sharing their stories. We can always learn something from them.


----------



## MaddiesMom

Thanks Amanda for starting this thread. Many of you know my story, but for the newbies.....

I bought our first Hav over 10 years ago. I knew nothing about the breed except what was written and a few pics over the internet. But I knew that this was the breed for us. There weren't many to be found back then, and we traveled to Arizona to get a puppy from a hobby breeder. She had bred her pet to a dog from another breeder. It wasn't until much later I learned that the mother of my pup was pretty old to be having puppies. Panda was a very sweet Hav, except she had luxating patellas which caused her discomfort from time to time and prevented her from jumping, and died of liver failure shortly after her 8th birthday. According to her specialist, she probably had liver issues from early on, but we never knew until she started drinking large amounts of water. Her biopsy confirmed that it was too late to do anything for her. She had no health tests nor did her parents, but back then, I don't think they knew as much about the importance of health testing.

After the heartbreak of losing Panda, I knew that I needed to do some serious research, since we intended on getting another Havanese. I began checking into several very reputable breeders who show their dogs, are member of Havanese clubs, completely health test their breeding stock, breed for temperament (and test it), raise their puppies as part of their family, and emphasize socialization. I was blessed to purchase our Maddie from a great breeder. Maddie has a fabulous temperament, loves people, children, other dogs, and has such a "joie de vive". She's everything you want and expect a Havanese to be. She's done wonderfully at agility, obedience, and is now a therapy dog who "works" at least once a week spreading joy to others as well as to us. For all those lurkers and newbies considering buying a Hav, you will be spending a large sum of money. We want you to have the healthiest, happiest, best socialized Hav you can buy. There are no guarantees in life, but doing research and buying from a really reputable breeder can save heartache and tremendous expense down the line. We spent nearly $3000 trying to save Panda's life in the last 2 months of her valiant fight.

There are many Havs from not the greatest breeders who turn out to be healthy with good temperaments. But the point is, why press your luck? You want your puppy to have the very best start in life. My breeder stands by her puppies. When I sent an e-mail to Panda's breeder telling her of Panda's illness and knee problem, I didn't even get a return e-mail. I just wanted to warn her of a possible problem, but it didn't seem to merit a response. 

Havanese are such a wonderful breed of dog; they deserve so much more than to be bred by backyard breeders and puppy mills. And considering the absolute love we give them and the heartbreak that can come from congenital and socialization problems, we deserve more too.


----------



## Lina

nanatotwo said:


> Since you have started this thread I have more questions
> I am very anxiously waiting for a puppy that hasn't even been bred yet but will and out of that litter I hope I get the coloring I'm longing for. I am using a very good breeder so I know it's worth the wait time....which is VERY hard for me as most of you will understand. So I look often at websites and listings, longing for a baby but what I wish were available would be a website that listed the folks with questionable breeding practices. The more I think of it the more I realize how hard something like that would be. But it sure would come in handy to just look up a "rating" of breeders.
> Happy New Year to eveyone!


I did want to add that I hope that you and your breeder will be looking at the temperament and personality at the puppy first and foremost before looking at color. I cannot stress enough how important temperament and personality is and how that affects your life and the life of your puppy. I know someone who is a responsible and wonderful dog owner who had to send her dog back to the breeder because the puppy's personality was so wrong, it just did not work at all with her family. It's heartbreaking to have something like this happen, and then to have to start over with your search, so I just wanted to ensure that this is your #1 priority, and not coloring which we all know can change SO MUCH in our Havs. Just something to think about, if you haven't already!


----------



## Posh's Mom

Amanda, thank you for starting this thread.

Everyone, thank you for sharing your stories. 

I too have learned so much from my previous mistakes and from this forum. I can't stress enough how important it is to me to support breeders who are responsible/ethical/in breeding for the right reasons.

Seven years ago, I was finally a "grown up" with a new house, a husband, my own small business, a toddler, and a border collie who I had "inherited" by marrying my husband. I had wanted a great dane from early on in my childhood, and so, I started working on convincing my husband that we needed to add one to our family. He was never fully 100 percent on board with owning a giant breed, and this was the first mistake I made when getting our dane. For the rest of my dane's life I would hear "your dog" a lot. My husband now admits he did love our dane, but that it wasn't easy to love him. He had many hard to live with traits, and I truly believe that many of those traits came from the very beginning of his life.

I started looking at advertisements in the newspaper, hoping to find a rescue group who had a dane. As a child I was obsessed with combing the paper and reading the bios of the local dogs in rescue. I think if it were up to me at that time our house would have been inundated with dogs. I actually did find a local rescue with a two year old blue dane. My husband and I packed up our toddler son and b.c. and went to meet him. I had him out of the kennel for 30 seconds and knew he was way too much for me to handle. He absolutely had no interest in people, was very nervous, and just wanted to get back in his kennel. The rescue lady didn't have any information on his previous home that she would share with me, just told me he was a nice dog. She was very off putting, as I could tell that this dog had no socialization and had most likely been totally ignored. He was in an outside building with a kennel, which seemed very isolated to me, and I did know that isolation was something that could absolutely destroy the personality of a dane. With a small child in the house, the rehab of this dog was not something I was able or willing to take on.

I was also looking at the newspaper and checking out "breeders'" and I use that term loosely, advertisements. I had read several books about choosing a dane breeder, the questions I should ask, and so, armed with the questions I called the closest of the "breeders" listed. Even though I remember that my questions weren't really directly answered, I agreed to meet the "breeder" and available puppy at a local county fair which was a half way point between my house and the breeder's house. The breeder and her daughter were going to be in a 4-H competition at the fair. At the time, I thought it was a generous gesture that she would meet me a bit closer to my home. I now know, and regret, never seeing his environment or meeting his parents. She met me with the puppy, and of course he was adorable, and sweet, and she was "discounting" him to half the cost advertised in the paper because she had a new litter she was trying to place. We had already fallen in love which is so easy to do with any PUPPY, they are puppies of course, and so that day we brought him home. The breeder never asked us any questions really, she was content with the fact that we could pay for him, and she promised to send us his "papers." She did eventually send us the papers, which were not AKC registered, and looking at the ones she sent me I know they are totally ridiculous. 

He was a sweet puppy, but at six months he was already beginning to show major health and disposition issues. I notice his gait and stance was "off" and so I had him checked for hip displaysia (spelling?) and was told that he had a lack of cartilage in his joints and would most likely have severe arthritis-which he did end up suffering from. We started him on an expensive supplement which we would continue to use for the next six YEARS of his life. My "discounted" puppy was already costing me many times the amount I would have paid for a puppy were I to have found a responsible breeder and it only got worse. With a dog so big, every "little" health issue becomes a big problem.

He also had major social issues. I am a big believer that you only get what you put into an animal, and so I enrolled in classes, took him with me everyday to work, socialized him with children/dogs/cats and did my best to bring out his best. He was very sweet and confident on the leash, or with our border collie "in charge," who was the obvious alpha, but on his own he was a mess. He was extremely fearful of men especially, with the exception being my husband and my dad. I now wonder what happened to him in the 14 weeks before he came to live with us. I could give so many examples of his behavioral issues that most definitely stemmed from some sort of post traumatic experience, and share some pretty sad stories but this post would go on forever...

Ultimately, I just accepted that he would never be the dog that I had imagined, but that we would love him for he was. He did get better with men, after a ton of work and most of his behavioral issues got better with time, patience, and lots of training. Meanwhile, his health did not and it was awful to watch his body fall apart. I ended up having to make the terrible decision to euthanize him last January when he started falling down daily. I just couldn't help him any more, or watch him suffer.

I found out a couple of years after he had joined our family, that this breeder was indeed negligent to her dogs. A good friend of mine had lost her Chinese Crested to liver failure and was looking for a new Crested pup. At the "county fair" meeting our dane's breeder had brought a crested with her, and informed us that she bred cresteds also. My friend went to the breeder's house to check out a crested puppy and was absolutely horrified to see that the danes and cresteds were kept kenneled outside. Neither of these dogs, and in my opinion no dog, is suited to living outside. This explained a lot to me. I was just sick.

So, yeah, I wanted to do it right with our next dog. 

So, with Posh, I:
A. Researched breeds that matched what our ENTIRE family was looking for in a dog and narrowed my search down to two breeds. I further narrowed it down to one, the Havanese.
B. I went to dog shows and met Havanese and Havanese people in person.
C. I went to a dog "open house" hosted by three active area show breeders and asked a lot of questions and spent time interacting with about 13 havanese, of which only two were puppies. This was a good thing as I wasn't blinded by puppy fever. Meanwhile, one puppy was Posh, and she was the breeder's "in the running" bitch and I was already in love! 
D: I got on a waiting list, and I told myself and my family it was okay to wait, that waiting for the "right" puppy was well worth it, and it was! We got Miss Posh 4 months after I first saw her, which really wasn't that long of a wait...but it wasn't instant gratification.
E. I got to meet Posh again before I had to commit to buying her, and I was able to see her in her home and play with her and talk with her breeder again.
F. I asked for referrals before saying "yes." I did my homework on the breeder and spoke with other families that had her dogs. 
G. I asked the "right" questions about health testing, and double checked the answers to make sure Posh's parents were tested, and of course they were.
H. 100 percent of my family was 100 percent sure of this decision. 

No regrets. Meanwhile, I can't tell you how different life is with a dog that has been properly socialized and that is not suffering from a degenerative health problem. The saying you get what you pay for is true in this situation for me, and what I paid was not mainly in dollars but in time and energy. And still, I have learned even more from this forum!!!


----------



## Jennifer Clevenger

As far as rating breeders, that will never happen. People don't like negative things written about them even if they are true. The best course of action for a prospective puppy buyer is to go to a breeder that does ALL of the health tests that Havanese are known to have not just eye cerf. Secondly, go to a breeder who is an open book. Someone who allows you to come into their home to see all of their dogs. They should also be willing to give you the dogs AKC numbers to verify the testing done on OFA's website. Then have them explain how they socialize the puppies they raise. There is a standard to follow. I will post a checklist for after your new puppy comes home. It is a list of activities to expose your puppy to such as having a child ride a bike near them (while on a leash of course). It is a great tool to use.


----------



## Jennifer Clevenger

I can't upload the chart because it is too big. If you would like a copy, pm me your e-mail address and I will send it directly to you.


----------



## nanatotwo

Lina yes my breeder goes by that and not color choice but I'm hoping to have at least 2 or 3 in the litter that will make my odds better. I am so wanting this mix in color that I'm willing to wait. If color was not an issue I could of had a Havanese in my lap now but I'm reallllllllly wanting one from this planned litter.
I don't want the shyess in the litter or the most aggresive. Any in between this should work for us. It's just hubby and myself here now.


----------



## deejay

Just adding my two bits. Our first little dog was a toy poodle that we bought from a backyard breeder in 2000. We knew nothing about testing, problems with toy poodles or anything else. She was just a cute little ball of white fur with a wonderful personality. We paid about 500 dollars for her. She ended up with two knee surgerys, eye problems, and anything else you can think of. Beside the 12,00 the vet says we spent on her she was in a lot of pain during her very short eight years of life when she died of a tumour on her liver. We swore we would never buy a dog again unless it was thoroughly health tested. Our second toy poodle is very healthy and so far our Havanese seems to be perfect.


----------



## Sheri

Jennifer Clevenger said:


> I can't upload the chart because it is too big. If you would like a copy, pm me your e-mail address and I will send it directly to you.


Jennifer,
Thank you for the list. That must keep the good breeders very busy, checking off all those socialization situations! Impressive. Do you think the good breeders do that?


----------



## Olive25

I'm just curious what a "good breeders" health guarantee usually is? Olive has 2 years. Honestly I was surprised by this. If a havi were to have problems when would they likely appear?


----------



## Havtahava

Tina, most breeders have varying degrees of guarantees. In my opinion, a guarantee that offers to replace an unhealthy dog is worthless to most people. Once you've had a dog in your home for months or years, how many are truly going to return the dog to get another one? A "lifetime guarantee" also needs specifics to give it merit, because if it also requires you to return the dog, it doesn't mean much to most of us dog lovers.

Some breeders offer a financial guarantee for health. That speaks volumes to me. If a breeder isn't willing to back the health of the dog with the money they took in for the dog, then what are they willing to give?

On that note, what does a 2-year guarantee mean? If Olive develops cataracts at 20 months old, then what?


----------



## Jennifer Clevenger

Sheri said:


> Jennifer,
> Thank you for the list. That must keep the good breeders very busy, checking off all those socialization situations! Impressive. Do you think the good breeders do that?


The list is mainly for the puppy buyer not the breeder. A lot of the activities would require the puppy to have all of his/her shots before going outside the home and the introduction of other animals.


----------



## Jennifer Clevenger

Olive25 said:


> I'm just curious what a "good breeders" health guarantee usually is? Olive has 2 years. Honestly I was surprised by this. If a havi were to have problems when would they likely appear?


Some issues may not show up until later such as eye problems. I know quite a few breeders who give lifetime guarantees. That is proof they will follow the health of their puppies for the lifetime not just a few years.


----------



## Olive25

Havtahava said:


> Tina, most breeders have varying degrees of guarantees. In my opinion, a guarantee that offers to replace an unhealthy dog is worthless to most people. Once you've had a dog in your home for months or years, how many are truly going to return the dog to get another one? A "lifetime guarantee" also needs specifics to give it merit, because if it also requires you to return the dog, it doesn't mean much to most of us dog lovers.
> 
> Some breeders offer a financial guarantee for health. That speaks volumes to me. If a breeder isn't willing to back the health of the dog with the money they took in for the dog, then what are they willing to give?
> 
> On that note, what does a 2-year guarantee mean? If Olive develops cataracts at 20 months old, then what?


You're right...if something did happen, I'm sure we wouldn't "trade her in". I have a good relationship with the breeder and I may be wrong but I'm guessing it is a financial guarantee as well. I need to ask. I do know they did all the testing and their lines are extremely healthy.


----------



## Sheri

Jennifer Clevenger said:


> The list is mainly for the puppy buyer not the breeder. A lot of the activities would require the puppy to have all of his/her shots before going outside the home and the introduction of other animals.


Ahh, well that makes sense. I wasn't thinking that through all the way. :redface:


----------



## Amy R.

All these stories are so fascinating~~everyone has a complex journey to share and lessons learned. Thanks Amanda and everyone.


----------



## Jill in Mich

Amanda, thanks for starting this thread. I've started to post here a number of times and not been able to find the right words. As most of you know, Tess is a former puppy mill breeder. Because she's a rescue dog, I knew going into it that I would be dealing with a dog who most likely had social and physical issues that would take additional time and money, that many of her issues will never be resolved and that there would be a good chance of her life being shortened.

On the thread that prompted this one, the question was asked of how could we be so sure that pet stores obtained their puppies from puppy mills. The puppies may not come from huge "puppy mills" as we've come to know the term but those pups aren't coming from responsible breeders because a responsible breeder would never place one of their puppies in a pet shop or anywhere else for resale or cosignment.

As a commercial establishment, a pet shop is required to sell a puppy to anyone who can pay. Legally, they are not allowed to "screen" buyers for suitability. Pet stores cannot "check up" on a puppy after a sale. I have not heard one responsible breeder on this forum that would find those terms acceptable.

Many pet stores claim they don't obtain their puppies from puppy mills but from local breeders whom they have screened and approved. 
1) Just because they're local doesn't mean they aren't a puppy mill or are a responsible breeder
2) Being screened and approved doesn't mean they are working with a responsible breeder. Their screening may have nothing to do with the health of the puppy.

Pet stores say "health guaranteed". They offer to replace defective puppies rather than avoiding the defect in the first place by requiring breeders to do genetic testing. Frequently the "guarantee" has expired by the time a problem is discovered since many genetic health problems aren't uncovered for 6-24 months. There may also be a caveat that the guarantee is only in place if you continue to use the pet stores vet. Along with being inconvenient, this may also be a conflict of interest. And have you ever thought about what happens to puppies that are returned to a pet shop?

Doctors Foster and Smith website provides the following questionnaire for prospective pet owners to help identify a responsible breeder:

_Questions to ask dog breeders

The following list of questions were provided to us by breeders and Rescue/Adoption agencies to help you in your quest for the best breeder for your needs. The list is not all-inclusive, nor is every question necessarily appropriate for every breed. You may give more importance to some questions, and for some you may need to do further research to know what you would expect for an answer. The questions are listed here as a guide to help you get to know the person you may be getting your puppy from and the practices they follow as a breeder.
1) Are you a member of the Breed Parent Club, and do you follow the Parent Club Code of Ethics? Do you have a copy of the Code of Ethics I could review?
2) Do you belong to any breed clubs or breed organizations?
3) How many different breeds of dogs do you breed? How many litters of each breed do you have in a year? And at what age do you breed your dogs?
4) What are the known health problems with this breed, and what steps are you taking to minimize the chance of those problems occurring in your litters?
5) What criteria (tests, accomplishments) do you require of your breeding stock, and why?
6) Do you have test results (like OFA papers for testing hips) on both parents that I could review?
7) What requirements must a puppy buyer meet to receive one of your puppies?
8) Do you require a contract? If so, what are the terms and guarantees? What does your contract say about hereditary problems?, type of registration (limited or full)?, about spaying and neutering?
9) Do you take your dogs back at any time in their lifetime if a pet owner decides he or she no longer wants the dog?
10) At what age do you place the puppies in their new home and will the puppies have had their first set of vaccinations before placement? _

Tess spent 5 years as a breeder. I don't know how large of an operation she came from but when rescued she was filthy, matted, smelled terrible, was underweight, and full of fleas - all clear signs of having lived in a wire cage stacked one on top of the other so that urine & feces fell down onto the dogs below and probably with no protection from the heat or cold.

More than likely she had 2 litters a year for at least 4 years. At a minimum of 3-4 puppies per litter, that's about 30 puppies whom either became breeders themselves or were sold to unsuspecting people. If the pups became breeders themselves that means the number of pups with health problems grows exponentially.

Besides not being properly socialized so possibly suffering from fear agression, separation anxiety, etc. these pups all have the genetics for luxating patellas and severe allergies (dust mites, fleas, chicken, pork, potatoes, sweet potatoes, 5 trees, numerous grasses, lots of molds, to name just a few) that require a lifetime of allergy shots.

So besides paying a good amount for their puppy initially, the future owners of Tess' pups are in for a lifetime of medical expenses. While I love her dearly, a responsible breeder would clearly never have used Tess to improve the breed.

And of course, I can't end this post without calling attention to the poor lives of the parents of those cute little pet store puppies. When I got Tess she weighed 7 pounds. She's now at 12 pounds and I can still feel her ribs. I learned yesterday that she may have damaged eardrums due to untreated ear infections. She spent 5 years eating poor quality food that she was probably highly allergic to so she would have been miserable. And yet, Tess was lucky. When the breeder was done with her they took her to a swap meet to get rid of her instead of taking her out to a field and shooting her (which is legal in some states) or drowning or strangling her.


----------



## Lynn

So besides paying a good amount for their puppy initially, the future owners of Tess' pups are in for a lifetime of medical expenses. While I love her dearly, *a responsible breeder would clearly never have used Tess to improve the breed.* quote from Jill

Jill,

Thanks you for sharing that story...makes me a little sad, but I am so glad you have Tess now.

But the part the really got my attention is "a responsible breeder would clearly never have used Tess for breeding." Most the people on this forum are passion Havanese dog lovers, and want only the best for the breed.

We should not support breeders that do not try to breed for the best of the breed. When I say support I mean, *we should not buy puppies from this kind of breeder. * When you buy from this type of breeder, you are only encouraging them to breed more unhealthly dogs. We should education people why not to buy from this kind of breeder. This thread is a good start.


----------



## Jennifer Clevenger

Jill and Lynn,

Both of you make great points. I also love the questions Jill posted. They are great. I would recommend any prospective puppy buyer to ask those important questions to any breeder they are thinking of going to. 

The whole purpose of breeding should be to improve. If the breeder doesn't know the standard to which they are supposed to be breeding to, how can they improve? Most good breeders are breeding to get the best representative of the breed. They can't keep them all so we need puppy buyers to take and care for some.


----------



## Sheri

Jill, 
Your story about Tess's having found a home with you is so touching. She is one lucky lady to have made it out alive. You are one special lady to have loved her and taken her in.

What awful, horrible lives these "puppy mill" dogs live. And their puppies...breaks your heart.


----------



## Scooter's Family

I'm glad this thread was started but also sickened by what I read. WHO KNEW??? I sure didn't, until I found the forum. Luckily we got Scooter from a breeder that did health testing and provided proof, along with his AKC papers, but I guess we'll never know for sure. I didn't know what questions to ask before we went to visit and choose a puppy. She did some things right but not everything I've read here.

DH told me he's on board to get another dog, this time he'd like to do a rescue though. If he read this there would be no question of that and we'd probably wind up with many, many little doggies that need homes! I do know now that we'll do much more research next time and be more prepared.

We got lucky that so far Scooter is a healthy and very happy little guy! God bless all of you who take in the dogs who require so much work, patience and love.


----------



## ama0722

I am glad a lot of you guys are sharing  It is also great some of you to share who got dogs from great breeders. I will have to post eventually about the difference I see.

Amy- Thanks for sharing the story on your dane. I would imagine with the big guys when their bodies go out it is a lot harder. Reading Marley and Me, he was saying the same thing the pain getting the dog back in his home. My parent's last Golden's hips started going out (she as extremely old for a golden though and came from a hunting line) and it was tough for her to get around. It is hard to see them get older and be in pain but it is even harder when they are so young.

Jill- you are a precious soul and thank goodness Tess found you. That is one thing I always think of when people talk about "saving" a puppy. I immediately think of the mother cause she isn't saved in that situation. In fact, she is probably being bred again. 

:hug:


----------



## Poornima

I wonder if this thread could be displayed prominently as a permanent feature on the main page. When people find this website, they will get the much needed information / guidance on selecting a good breeder.


----------



## KristinFusco

Poornima said:


> I wonder if this thread could be displayed prominently as a permanent feature on the main page. When people find this website, they will get the much needed information / guidance on selecting a good breeder.


I was also thinking that maybe a Glossary page would be good for the forum as well (forgive my ignorance if it is already here). Then, if people wonder what "health testing" entails, they can click on the link for it and get the definition of the current HCA gold-star health standard (BAER, CERF, hips, patella, etc.....). It could contain all commonly used terms and acronyms as well. Then we wouldn't all feel like broken records when the same questions come up


----------



## Leeann

I think the use of the banner ad at the top of the page would be a good place to put something, it shows up on every page, you click it and it would bring you to a page about what to look for in a good breeder along with what Kristin added.


----------



## Scooter's Family

I agree, I would have loved to have that information prior to looking for a puppy.


----------



## MaddiesMom

I agree....this thread is probably one of the most important threads ever started. It should be displayed prominently for every lurker and newbie to see. Its a great reminder that we need to pay more attention to the quality of the breeder than the adorable face we may see in a store or on the internet. 

Jill, what a wonderful thing you've done for Tess. You are truly her angel. When I look at Tess' sweet face, I just can't imagine all the horrible things she no doubt endured. I so wish each and every puppy mill would be shut down forever. Its all about money. I feel so badly for the puppies, but even worse for the breeder dogs. They have little chance for escape of their horrible conditions. What a tragedy.


----------



## Posh's Mom

Ditto everyone.

This is great information. Jill thank you so much for your Tess story. You are one kick ass woman!


----------



## Jill in Mich

Thanks everyone but I've gotten much more out of having Tess than she could ever get from me. (Heck the poor little thing is highly allergic to dust mites and has to suffer daily living in my house!!!) The story is Tess'. I've done nothing more for her than any of you have done for your beloved pets. In fact, when I think of stories like Missy with Jasper, Marj with Ricky, Leslie with Shadow, and so many others who have dealt with health and behavioral issues, I've been very lucky.


----------



## marjrc

Jill, thank you for sharing your opinion and experience with little Tess. (((hugs)))

I have seen the puppy mill bitches and studs and it's not pretty! Maltese, Yorkies, Poodles, and mixes of all kinds of breeds. I know exactly what Tess must have looked like and behaved like when first rescued. These are images you never, ever forget. 

Of course the pups produced and sold in pet shops aren't likely to be a healthy, ideal version of the standard, but if they're lucky, then maybe, just maybe they will be neutered and cared for in families and good homes. One can hope! It's the ones left at the mill that I think about each and every time the words "pet shop" come up. I get very passionate about educating people and sometimes, o.k. always, I see red! :frusty:

There was an argument in a thread about that and I just couldn't back down. As you have said, there is no good that can come of any pet sold in a store, that isn't from a shelter or rescue program. If that animal is sold to make money and only for that reason, then you can bet your a$$ it's from a disreputable "breeder". I cringe at even using that term, for these unscrupulous people since I've learned just what a good breeder is and does.

To think that I had no idea about any of this 3 years ago. Luckily, I happened to find some great advice online just before making my decision to get Ricky, though I did learn even more since then. Education is key and yes, this thread should be among those displayed for all to see and not lost in the shuffle of endless "new posts".


----------



## RikiDaisyDixie

*reminder of why we don't buy pet store puppies...*






There are havanese in this home raising dogs for pet stores...


----------



## Scooter's Family

Unbelievable!


----------



## RikiDaisyDixie

*The Washington "mill"*

I talked to rescue as I thought a lot of these were havanese from the video. Turns out many of them are "designer" doggies. HRI is in contact with them...but one thing we do know, that shelter needs contributions. They are overwhelmed with doggies right now. And it has to go through court unless the owner willingly surrenders them...


----------



## ama0722

:crutch: Bumping this up as we have a lot of new puppy buyers and unfortunately a lot of people joining the list after buying dogs on the internet.


----------



## marjrc

Great idea, Amanda. We can hope that one day all people will know that shelters, breed rescues, and reputable breeders that fully health test, socialize and care for their breed are the best options for finding a dog for their family.


----------



## Poornima

This indeed is a great thread for the people who are considering to adopt a pet. 

Can we make this a sticky on the main page? My prayer and hope is that with this information so readily available, all people will choose to buy from reputable breeders who love this breed with passion and are dedicted to its betterment.


----------



## marjrc

This would be a great sticky, yes, but also in the "Ask a Breeder" section maybe... ?

I'll paraphrase what Christy wrote in a post recently: *"ALL puppies are cute, but not all breeders are reputable or good." * Looking at pictures of puppies online or in a pet shop will not help you make the right decision. Think first, ask a ton of questions and then, only then, ask to see pictures or visit the breeder's puppies.


----------



## mellowbo

Great idea, this should be a sticky!


----------



## Julie

I can make this a sticky---but it won't stay on the front page anyway......
I'm gonna get out my glue stick anyway!ound:


----------



## ama0722

Another thread about importance of a good breeder and puppy socialization

http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=11111


----------



## sandydlc

When we got our Chihuahua now almost 12 years ago, I thought that I knew what I was doing. I found a breeder right in the city where I live and thought I had done everything right. What I didn't realize is that this is an older lady that breeds both long and short-haired Chihuahua's for dog shows, but she also sells all dogs that she didn't consider show-quality. Paco is relatively healthy but has had a heart murmur for the past two years and is now on daily medication. He also has joint issues - if you look at one of his pictures, both of his front feet are turned out, probably not a good sign. He has a torn ACL on his left knee that we opted not to repair. Every so often it gives out on him and now we have doggy steps for him to get up and down from the couch.

Health issues aside, our biggest problem with him, and it's really been almost from the beginning, was his almost entire lack of socialization. The home he was raised in was an older lady, her husband (who wasn't around much) and the lady's ailing mother. We have had issues with Paco biting people, mostly men, and despite training and working with him diligently, I still can't trust him 100%. I've learned to just not give him opportunities to get in trouble and that helps, but what a huge difference it's been to have Lucy who has just the best temperament!!

So, while health testing is very vital, please do ask lots of questions about how the dogs/puppies have been socialized - who have they been exposed to, do either of the parents have aggression issues? I didn't ask any of these questions which were so important especially since we didn't get Paco until he was 6 months old.

I did extensive research before getting Lucy and I was so glad that I worked so hard to find our breeder. Before getting another dog in the future, I would either get a rescue Hav, or go back to Lucy's breeder. 

I agree that this is a very important thread and I'm very grateful to have found this forum - it's a great resource!!

Sandy


----------



## Posh's Mom

:amen: keeping this thread on top.


----------



## Scooter's Family

Educate yourself! Happy, healthy Havanese come from reputable breeders!

To find Reputable breeders:
Visit: 
http://www.havanese.org/

You can meet reputable breeders at AKC Shows and visiting events arranged by official local Havanese Club.

Please help and adopt from:

Havanese Rescue: 
http://www.havaneserescue.com/
__________________


----------



## Posh's Mom

keep on bumping this good thread. 

relationships with good responsible breeders who will stand by their pups are golden.

check out area havanese dog clubs and/or shows. visit with breeders. see if any breeders will host an "open house" meet and greet like posh's breeder did.

be prepared to wait for the right puppy, months, even up to a year after finding a good breeder.

that extra time will give you opportunities to really prepare for your new family member.

all puppies are adorable. do not fool yourself that you are "rescuing" a puppy from a bad breeding situation, you are simply keeping this "breeder" in business and perpetuating the situation.


----------



## Ditto's Mom

:bump2: keep this on the front page, pleaseeeeeeeeeeee


----------



## Cailleach

I am so happy this thread exists and the forum. I have learned a lot about health problems with Havs and bad breeders. Embarrassed to say but I truly did not know that there were soooo many problems that could crop up. I was living in a bubble perhaps but in my area of the world Havs are very rare and I have only met breeders where you have to bend over backwards to be privileged to purchase from them and the dogs are not cheap. They come guaranteed for life from health tested show champion parents and I thought that was the way things were everywhere. That's why this thread/forum is so important...it's a big world out there and if one doesn't know the bad things that can occur this is the place to learn.:whoo:


----------



## Leslie

Cailleach said:


> I am so happy this thread exists and the forum. I have learned a lot about health problems with Havs and bad breeders. Embarrassed to say but I truly did not know that there were soooo many problems that could crop up. I was living in a bubble perhaps but in my area of the world Havs are very rare and I have only met breeders where you have to bend over backwards to be privileged to purchase from them and the dogs are not cheap. They come guaranteed for life from health tested show champion parents and *I thought that was the way things were everywhere.* That's why this thread/forum is so important...it's a big world out there and if one doesn't know the bad things that can occur this is the place to learn.:whoo:


Emphasis mine.

What a shame it's *not* like that everywhere, Deb 

Unscrupulous breeders are preying on unsuspecting buyers daily. Breaks my heart when those buyers show up here w/a sick puppy looking for help because the breeder won't give them any. I don't know how many times since I've been a member here, we've helped owners in that kind of situation.

For those of you looking for a pup, read and take seriously, the advice already given in this thread. Please, PLEASE, *PLEASE* for your pup's health and your own happiness.


----------



## Julie

Poornima said:


> :bump:
> 
> *Dear Visitors and Would-be owners of Havanese furballs,
> Happy, well -adjusted, healthy Havanese come from reputable breeders of Havanese. We urge you to do your research, get educated and buy only from reputable breeders who dedicate themselves for the betterment of the breed.
> 
> Thank you,**Poornima* (*who did extensive research, read 3 breed books to make sure the Havanese was right for us, contacted HCA, got the list of reputable breeders, went to AKC shows, talked to number of Havanese pet owners at the show (pet and show puppy owners), breeders, visited breeders' homes, played with their dogs, provided all the information the breeder needed -including references for character!, talked to the puppy owners of the breeder, made sure that the breeder would be supportive through the life of my puppy! and who has never been disappointed in her fatastic, responsible, caring breeder) Go reputable breeders!* :cheer2:


:thumb:


----------



## marjrc

............. bump! :biggrin1:

View attachment 28288


----------



## Posh's Mom

keep this post going strong.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Posh's Mom said:


> keep this post going strong.


Do read this post and click on the links and read all the posts!! It can change your mind!


----------



## Posh's Mom

:amen:
absolutely.


----------



## marjrc

Poornima said:


> :bump:
> 
> *Education and patience lead to making right choices. The right choice is buying a Havanese puppy from reputable Havanese breeders.
> 
> Educate yourself! Happy, healthy Havanese come from reputable breeders!
> 
> To find Reputable breeders:
> Visit:
> http://www.havanese.org/
> 
> You can meet reputable breeders at AKC Shows and visiting events arranged by official local Havanese Club.
> 
> Please help and adopt from:
> 
> Havanese Rescue:
> http://www.havaneserescue.com[/LEFT][/RIGHT][/B]/​*


*


And for those in Canada, check out: http://www.havanesefanciers.com/ and click on the "Rescue" link there if that is what you are looking for. Click on "Looking for a Havanese" to get lists of breeders and great advice.
​*


----------



## karin117

:bump::bump:


----------



## Sissygirl

I am so glad to see this thread staying on top. I didn't know the importance of a good breeder. As a miracle, when I decided I wanted a havanese I ran across a breeder who told me what to look for and sent me literature and recommended breeders. I was so thankful. 

She guided me in the right direction. Recently, I wrote her a note and told her how much I appreciated her help.


----------



## Poornima

Happy, Healthy Havanese come from reputable breeders!

Choose to help and adopt wonderful, sweet Havanese from:
http://www.havaneserescue.com/

Kudos to Rescue and Foster Moms and Dads who give selfless love, time and care to many unfortunate Havanese furballs rescued by HR and send them to their forever loving homes when the little furballs are healthy and ready. Go Rescue / Foster moms and dads!:cheer2:

To Find Reputable Breeders Of Havanese, you can: 
1) Contact Havanese Club of America 
2) Attend the AKC Shows in your area
3) Contact official local Havanese Club in your area. If you don't have one, be prepared to travel.


----------



## Poornima

Leslie said:


> I sure hope folks who are looking to get a Neezer are reading this thread :biggrin1:


That's my prayer and hope too, Leslie! :thumb:

I will try to keep it up as long as there are people wanting Neezers!


----------



## Leeann

Has anyone asked Melissa if she can put this thread in the banner up at the top highlighted like she has the Health Thread?


----------



## mintchip

:bump2::bump2:


----------



## mintchip

:bump2::bump2:
Happy, Healthy Havanese come from reputable breeders! 
Choose to help and adopt wonderful, sweet Havanese from:
http://www.havaneserescue.com/

Kudos to Rescue and Foster Moms and Dads who give selfless love, time and care to many unfortunate Havanese furballs rescued by HR and send them to their forever loving homes when the little furballs are healthy and ready. Go Rescue / Foster moms and dads!

To Find Reputable Breeders Of Havanese, you can: 
1) Contact Havanese Club of America 
2) Attend the AKC Shows in your area
3) Contact official local Havanese Club in your area. If you don't have one, be prepared to travel.
__________________


----------



## Posh's Mom

i am cutting and pasting this from a "beardie" website, but i thought it fit here perfectly.

why you should spend the money on a responsibly bred dog, and why these folks aren't "in it for the money."



> ABOUT PUPPY PRICES
> The average Beardie pup costs between $800 - $1500 depending on where you are geographically. Seems like a lot of money. But then you can't put a price on love or on a family member. Genetic testing is expensive; proving the parents' worth as quality dogs is expensive.
> The average litter is five or six. Income is $4000-$5000 if they all sell at $800. However, we often keep one. Subtract $800. We may replace a pup. Subtract another $800. Subtract $1000 for stud fee. Prorating the initial cost of the dam ($1000 - divided by, say, 3 litters = $333); her medical tests and prenatal care during pregnancy and after whelping runs about $200 - subtract another $533. Traveling or shipping to the stud runs about $200, (subtract). Food for the puppies - about $100; shots and exams about $200; advertising about $100, pedigree and registration - another $25. So subtract another $425. Long distance calls run me about $50 per month - two months before departure (BD) and two months (at least) after departure (AD) equals $200. Photos and videos (BD) about $75. Care packages to send home with puppies around $40. If we have unusual medical expenses (c-section or virus hitting the litter), it can run another $1500. Not counting the last, on an average it adds up to $4073 which leaves the breeder of a litter of five in the red $73. As you can see, the reputable breeder who cares about and is involved in the breed is not making a living selling puppies. He/she does it for the love of the breed.
> 
> As one breeder says,
> 
> "I don't even think about these things when I'm planning a breeding. I do it because I love the breed, because I love puppies, because I have a waiting list pounding on my door. I struggled with the idea of raising my price to $800 to match most of the others in the area. I guess I'm way off base -- I should be charging more!
> "Actually, I don't charge anything for my puppies. My price is for the genetic testing of parents, a health guarantee that far outlasts that of the commercial breeders', lifetime advice, a home at any time if needed, a shoulder to cry on, an ear to listen and a heart to break when the buyer loses his beloved pet and my sweet baby."


----------



## Poornima

Posh's Mom said:


> i am cutting and pasting this from a "beardie" website, but i thought it fit here perfectly.
> 
> why you should spend the money on a responsibly bred dog, and why these folks aren't "in it for the money."


:thumb:

We need the word out in every way possible to lead people to make the right choice which is buying from a reputable breeder.

:bump2::bump2:


----------



## mintchip

:thumb::bump2::bump::thumb:


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Now where did that cute little drawing come from, I love it. I have to admit, I admire all who are helping out with the rescues. Thank you for all you do! And thanks to the furever homes too.


----------



## marjrc

*Please look at the first posts and pages of this important thread. Very good information!! *


----------



## BeverlyA

This is so VERY important!
Beverly


----------



## Julie

:bump:


----------



## marjrc

Thank you for making this a sticky, Julie!!


----------



## Poornima

Education and patience lead to making right choices. The right choice is buying a Havanese puppy from reputable Havanese breeders. 

Educate yourself! Happy, healthy Havanese come from reputable breeders!

To find Reputable breeders:
Visit: 
http://www.havanese.org/

You can meet reputable breeders at AKC Shows and visiting events arranged by official local Havanese Club.
Please help and adopt from:

Havanese Rescue: 
http://www.havaneserescue.com/


----------



## marjrc

Poornima, no need to bump this thread any more. It's a sticky now, though posting in it will make it bold on the front page of this area, puppy area. Julie made it a sticky in "ask a breeder" too, I believe.


----------



## Janizona

snipped


Missy said:


> Jasper's breeder offered a 5 YEAR health guarantee, where she would take him back and give us another pup. I asked her at the time if she would help pay for medical expenses if they arose as I couldn't imagine giving him back- she was honest and said it depended on the circumstances and how she was asked and went on to tell a story of someone she did help with expenses but that she couldn't guarantee it but she would happily exchange him for another puppy. .


I think its crazy for a breeder to require the return of a dog before refunding money. It would break a dogs heart (and owners!) to have to leave its family. If you have a dog that has a health problem and the breeder says you have to return it first, don't you wonder what the breeder going to DO with that dog? Spend the money to help it? (Makes no sense they wouldn't pay YOU to do the same thing.) Rehome it? (Really? A sick dog?) Euthanize it? (Oh lets not even go there.)

I would never return one of my dog, no matter what was wrong with it. This is why our health guarantee does not require the return of the dog. That is not the right thing for the dog and the dog's well being is #1.


----------



## marjrc

I agree with you, Janet. Any time I read about a breeder offering to take back a dog , I wonder what will happen to that dog. I mean, it's absolutely fine if it's because the owners can't afford certain medical treatments, or therapies, or if the family is moving, loses jobs or deaths in the family... To me, I'd rather see the dog back at the breeders in hopes it is at least cared for. 

As a "return the dog because there's something wrong with it" reason though, I would be wary too.


----------



## Janizona

marjrc said:


> I agree with you, Janet. Any time I read about a breeder offering to take back a dog , I wonder what will happen to that dog. I mean, it's absolutely fine if it's because the owners can't afford certain medical treatments, or therapies, or if the family is moving, loses jobs or deaths in the family... To me, I'd rather see the dog back at the breeders in hopes it is at least cared for.
> 
> As a "return the dog because there's something wrong with it" reason though, I would be wary too.


(Not directed at you Marj)
Folks, don't confuse a breeder taking a dog back (the owners decision) vs being forced to give up your beloved dog to get a refund. I hope that every breeder here stands behind their pups for life. We should always be the first in line when the owner can't or doesn't want to keep their dog, for what ever reason.

I've rehomed several dogs that were returned thru the years. Its tricky to place them as their needs are much more specific than a puppy. Take Emma for example, she really needed someone with a big heart so she could open up and feel comfortable being her silly sweet self. I think Beverly is da bomb. :hail: Then there is Rocket who has SA. He will never leave here, but that is fine. He's a pretty cool dude and we enjoy him. There have been others and all are in great 2nd homes. I'd be devastated if someone didn't let me know there was a problem and rehomed their Hav. I think that is why staying in touch with all your puppy owners is critical.


----------



## Missy

Janet, Marj. I agree totally. I posted that as a way of saying health guarantees are not all what they seem.


----------



## Tom King

Since this thread is a "sticky" and it's getting a LOT of views from visitors, it would read a lot easier for someone just now coming here if those of you with a lot of bumping posts would go back and delete posts that aren't really needed in this thread now. Thanks for keeping it at the top.

One of the great advantages of forums over elists, is that you can go back and edit posts you have already made- which includes deleting.

I think one of the good benefits of these forums is as a reference to new people just starting their research.

Just a suggestion......I'll come back and delete this post later.


----------



## marjrc

(Great idea, Tom!  )

Janet, I would hope a breeder stands behind every puppy they ever produce, for all of that puppy's life. It is one of the things a good breeder does. I'd much rather see a breeder having to find a dog a new home, than the dog ending up in a shelter (although many shelters do great work, it's still a trauma to the dog). 

I've heard of breeders rehoming a dog that was returned for medical/congenital reasons without ever doing a thing to help that dog! They're just doing it for the money, really.  

I also wonder about whether it might not be 'better' for the dog to find a new home within the owners family, say because they are ill or have to move, and their SIL or aunt can take the dog. I'm sure a good breeder would like to be made aware of that, but would many breeders insist on that dog returning to them, since it's in the contract? I'm sure there are many exceptions made.... I'm just curious.


----------



## Janizona

marjrc said:


> (Great idea, Tom!  )
> 
> I also wonder about whether it might not be 'better' for the dog to find a new home within the owners family, say because they are ill or have to move, and their SIL or aunt can take the dog. I'm sure a good breeder would like to be made aware of that, but would many breeders insist on that dog returning to them, since it's in the contract? I'm sure there are many exceptions made.... I'm just curious.


I can't answer for other breeders but we always explore that option to see if its available before a dog is returned. If they have someone that wants to adopt the dog, I don't have a problem with it as long as they are good folk and the dog will have a loving home.


----------



## Poornima

Tom King said:


> *Since this thread is a "sticky" and it's getting a LOT of views from visitors, it would read a lot easier for someone just now coming here if those of you with a lot of bumping posts would go back and delete posts that aren't really needed in this thread now.* Thanks for keeping it at the top.
> 
> One of the great advantages of forums over elists, is that you can go back and edit posts you have already made- which includes deleting.
> 
> I think one of the good benefits of these forums is as a reference to new people just starting their research.
> 
> Just a suggestion......I'll come back and delete this post later.


Bold mine. I just saw this post! If someone can tell me how to delete my "Bump" posts, I would be happy to do so.


----------



## marjrc

Poornima, don't worry about it. You could pm Yung and ask him.


----------



## O'Bluff

Sorry to resurect such an "old" thread, but it is such an important one. I am going to Grandview Havanese in Enumclaw, WA to look at pups tomorrow and want to know what health issues to bring up. What testing would it be fair to ecpect has been done on the parents, etc?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## krandall

Both parents should have been checked for elbows, hips, patella, juvenile cataracts, and had a Baer hearing test. The results of all these tests should be registered with OFA, and they should have a "CHIC number". (remember to actually go and LOOK at these results on line, it's great that they've done the testing, but you want the results to be good!) Their hearts should have been checked and blood work done to show that their livers are in good shape. You should also see soaped pictures of the parents legs to make sure they are straight. Best of all is if you can get this all for the grandparents as well as the parents. I also like both parents to have achieved their championship before being bred.

The pups themselves should have been checked for heart murmurs, had their Baer hearing test, and either have soaped pictures, or the breeder could show you how to give the puppy a bath and soap them during that process to show that they have straight legs.


----------



## O'Bluff

Thank you! I'll sound like I know what I'm talking about. Maybe someday I actually will.


----------



## krandall

There's a steep learning curve, but you're very smart to do it BEFORE buying a puppy rather than after!


----------



## Suzi

O'Bluff said:


> Sorry to resurect such an "old" thread, but it is such an important one. I am going to Grandview Havanese in Enumclaw, WA to look at pups tomorrow and want to know what health issues to bring up. What testing would it be fair to ecpect has been done on the parents, etc?
> 
> Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


 How exciting I think Augie Motherslittlehelper came from that breeder. I am not sure if she was at the last show here in Portland although her web page shows other people I met during the show. All the things Karen said are good questions. I will write Augies mom and ask her if Grandview is her breeder.


----------



## Sheri

Ol'Bluff, so glad to see you are finding this link useful. Good for you for actually reading and researching ahead of time. There IS a lot to learn, and it is so much better to learn _before_ you have the puppy home.

And, there is a lot of great information in the old threads... they'll never be too old to be useful! Glad you bumped it up.


----------



## West End Girl

This is a very important thread. 

I cannot stress enough how important it is to do some reading and research AHEAD of time. Get referrals from friends, talk to people at pet food stores, your Vet, or a friend's Vet. You'll be surprised about who knows what about whom!

When researching breeders online, don't be fooled by glossy photographs, artsy graphics, pictures that look almost too good to be true, and perfect testimonials (how do you know these are real people & not posts the breeder has fabricated?)

Bottom line, go and visit the breeder BEFORE committing to a purchase or making a deposit. Even then, don't be so quick to slap down the funds. It's easy to send $$$, but difficult to get out of a bad situation later w/o losing your money.

From personal experience, I will tell everyone here, that THE BEST pets I've adopted have been from breeders who don't spend all of their time online........provide "candid" photos, encourage you to visit, do NOT request a deposit in their first email back to you, and who take the time to inquire about you and your family. 

Good breeders breed for the genuine love and betterment of the breed. Health testing is incredibly important yes, but any decent breeder will want to find out as much as they can about where their puppies are going- within reason of course!

One of the BEST breeders I know (Ragdoll cats) made us wait to see how the personality and temperament developed before placing the kitten on "hold". It's rare to recognize that in the excitement. 

A new pet/puppy is an exciting time and many of us want him/her no matter what. But I've always looked at taking any new animal into our home as an "adoption" as opposed to a "purchase", and with any adoption, the process should never be rushed.


----------



## evaofnc

This thread is a real eye opener









We're super lucky since my MIL is also our breeder. She did all the hard research work for us! It's nice because we've known her sire and dam since they were pups and have more medical testing paperwork for them than you can shake a stick at. I didn't even know that they did tests on a dog's eyes, hips, etc until she told me about it! My mom's family bred Afghans back in the 60s before they really had anything like that so she learned a little something too haha.

It's also nice that she lets the neighborhood kids play with her puppies so they can become accustomed to all sizes of people. I swear I think that's the reason Eva always wants to stop by the playground during her walks :biggrin1:

It seems so difficult to know if you're dealing with a backyard breeder or a hobby breeder if you're not local to the person. I think I would be too scared to buy a dog from someone outside my local area after reading all your stories!


----------



## Julie

a very valuable thread---:bump:


----------



## Jplatthy

I asked my vet about testing for luxating patella and she told me there is really no way to test for it and no way to know whether a dog will develop it or not and it is not always a genetic thing...she said small dogs in general are prone to it.........I've seen alot of posts on here that a reputable breeder will test for this...how do they do it?


----------



## Suzi

Jplatthy said:


> I asked my vet about testing for luxating patella and she told me there is really no way to test for it and no way to know whether a dog will develop it or not and it is not always a genetic thing...she said small dogs in general are prone to it.........I've seen alot of posts on here that a reputable breeder will test for this...how do they do it?


 I don't think you can really tell about luxating patellas at the age one would get a puppy. A lot will have not developed enough yet a 8 weeks . Zoeys were a bit loose at that age and she developed fine. You do want to try to limit jumping off too high of things and be careful about certain activity's.


----------



## O'Bluff

Jplatthy said:


> I asked my vet about testing for luxating patella and she told me there is really no way to test for it and no way to know whether a dog will develop it or not and it is not always a genetic thing...she said small dogs in general are prone to it.........I've seen alot of posts on here that a reputable breeder will test for this...how do they do it?


Apparently there is some disagreement among the "experts" regarding patella. According to every breeder I've talked to or read, patella is genetic. I have had Picasso to two different vets and both told me that patella is genetic. Yet your vet says it is not. His breeder (Grandview Havanese) tests adult dogs for it. Check their web site if you are curious about it; results are posted there under the individual dogs' pedigrees.


----------



## krandall

My breeder tests adult breeding stock for patellas too. I do believe that you can't assess it in young puppies, it has to be the parents. (and hopefully, grandparents, great grand parents...)


----------



## MySadie

Another important point. If you have kids, buy from a breeder with young kids. My breeder had one teenage son so I'm guessing there was not much socializing and definitely 0 interaction with kids. We had a hard time with our puppy when she came home. She didn't really like ppl, especially kids. She nipped and bit the kids so they were afraid of her. She's better now, but I was heart broken the first 4 weeks. I'm hoping with obedience, training, socializing, and time, she'll adapt and love the kids.


----------



## Sheri

My breeder had no kids around, and my dog absolutely loved kids from the start-and I have no little kids, either. (He'd ignore me and try to get to the kids!) I think that in addition to good socializing, personality comes into play here.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Sheri said:


> My breeder had no kids around, and my dog absolutely loved kids from the start-and I have no little kids, either. (He'd ignore me and try to get to the kids!) I think that in addition to good socializing, personality comes into play here.


I have to agree personality comes in to it..some dogs just have that loving everything and children so much...it seems to come with confidence. Confidence vs. fear I mean. I am no expert but that has been my observation.


----------



## krandall

Sheri said:


> My breeder had no kids around, and my dog absolutely loved kids from the start-and I have no little kids, either. (He'd ignore me and try to get to the kids!) I think that in addition to good socializing, personality comes into play here.


Yes, and a good breeder who DOESN'T have young children will still make sure that the puppies are introduced to people of all ages.


----------



## West End Girl

Don't get me started on a "GOOD" breeder. 

My advice is to not rush, trust your instincts, ask lots of questions, and get ALL your testing done within the 1st few days of bringing the pup home. 

A reputable breeder will also not HIDE or ignore you once they have your $$$

And the irony of my statements is I knew all of this and got played anyways. But I believe in things happening for a reason, and I believe Lola was meant to be ours.


----------



## Suzi

West End Girl said:


> Don't get me started on a "GOOD" breeder.
> 
> My advice is to not rush, trust your instincts, ask lots of questions, and get ALL your testing done within the 1st few days of bringing the pup home.
> 
> A reputable breeder will also not HIDE or ignore you once they have your $$$
> 
> And the irony of my statements is I knew all of this and got played anyways. But I believe in things happening for a reason, and I believe Lola was meant to be ours.


 I'm glad she has you She is so beautiful I hope she keeps her coloring.


----------



## krandall

West End Girl said:


> Don't get me started on a "GOOD" breeder.
> 
> My advice is to not rush, trust your instincts, ask lots of questions, and get ALL your testing done within the 1st few days of bringing the pup home.
> 
> A reputable breeder will also not HIDE or ignore you once they have your $$$
> 
> And the irony of my statements is I knew all of this and got played anyways. But I believe in things happening for a reason, and I believe Lola was meant to be ours.


As far as I'm concerned, if the BREEDER hasn't done all the testing (and has the results in hand to give you) I'd walk away. Why should the buyer have to out and get testing done that should have already been done?

On the erst, I agree with you completely. I guess the only way you can be sure about the after-sale relationship you'll have with your breeder, though, is to get references from people you trust. This may mean that you have to wait longer for a pup (until that breeder has a litter available) but it's *SO* worth it.

Lola couldn't be cuter, though, and she's lucky she has a family like yours, willing to do what it takes to make her life all it can be!


----------



## Charleysmom

Because of everything I have learned on the forum, the puppy I was supposed to buy will not be coming home with me. I went for a visit last weekend and was very uncomfortable with the puppy pen and how the dogs were cared for. My puppy was totally unresponsive and not interested in play with me or his littermates. In addition, the breeder did not post her health test results on the OFA website, she does not show her dogs and the adults dogs are kept outside as well. It was obvious to me that the breeder has not been spending any time socializing these puppies.

I am disappointed to not be getting a puppy right now, but this has been a very good learning experience and I now know alot more about finding a good breeder. Thank you everyone. 

I live in Central NJ - can anyone recommend an excellent breeder??


----------



## TilliesMom

wow, good for you not supporting puppy mills/ backyard breeders! that took a lot of strength to walk away. Those poor dogs and puppies, breaks me heart just thinking about them stuck outside in the freezing cold... and puppies not cuddled and played with.. what is WRONG with people!!?? uggggg

I know your puppy is out there waiting for you and you 2 will find each other soon!


----------



## whitzend

Oh loriabigal so sorry it didn't work out. I know from your posts how excited you were. But you did the right thing as much as it hurts and is disappointing for you. I'm sure many here can help with finding a good breeder in your area.

Linda Cooper's Mom


----------



## Carefulove

loriabigail said:


> Because of everything I have learned on the forum, the puppy I was supposed to buy will not be coming home with me. I went for a visit last weekend and was very uncomfortable with the puppy pen and how the dogs were cared for. My puppy was totally unresponsive and not interested in play with me or his littermates. In addition, the breeder did not post her health test results on the OFA website, she does not show her dogs and the adults dogs are kept outside as well. It was obvious to me that the breeder has not been spending any time socializing these puppies.
> 
> I am disappointed to not be getting a puppy right now, but this has been a very good learning experience and I now know alot more about finding a good breeder. Thank you everyone.
> 
> I live in Central NJ - can anyone recommend an excellent breeder??


Lori,
I am sorry it didn't work out, but better now that after you had the pup.
I am in CT and when I first started looking for pups, I contacted a few in NJ and PA. At the end, I decided to go with a different breeder. The one in PA that I contacted, refused to give me soap pics of the parents, said that straight or bent legs didn't really matter .

I can only recommend the two breeders I have dealt with. They are both from different states but both have great reputations and stand 100% behind their dogs.
My first dog (the White and Gold Sable) comes from Peluito Havanese in MN. My Second Dog (the Black with White Markings Pup) comes from Starborn Havanese in NC.

I would recommend these two breeders in a heartbeat!


----------



## Charleysmom

thank you everyone. I will look into your suggestions. by the way, has anyone heard of Ruffian Havanese in Jobestown NJ?


----------



## Carefulove

loriabigail said:


> thank you everyone. I will look into your suggestions. by the way, has anyone heard of Ruffian Havanese in Jobestown NJ?


Never heard of them.


----------



## hmrgang

Hello, everyone:
I am the "horrible backyard breeder" that apparently doesn't socialize her puppies and mistreats her dogs by making them stay outside in the freezing cold. 

First of all, I encouraged Lori to visit her chosen puppy at 6 wks. of age (not before due to parvo concerns). Lori was over 1-1/2 hrs. late for her visit, but I took most of 
Sunday afternoon to sit with her, answer her questions, and let her visit the pupppies. Yes, her chosen puppy was sleeping at the time, but that was because he had spent the past few hours playing vigourously with his littermates (which Lori would have seen had she been earlier). Lori was uncomfortable that the puppy was tired and didn't want to accept my explanation that young puppies were going to nap quite a bit. During the visit, it became quite apparent to me that Lori was not going to be happy no matter what, so I gave Lori her deposit back. I hope she finds happiness with someone else!

By the way, my dogs were outside in my very large fenced-in backyard when Lori came so she didn't have 13 dogs jumping on her during her visit (we all know how loving Havanese can be). It is true that I don't show my dogs as I am not a competitive person and that is just not my "cup of tea." I have been a member of HCA since 2000, have been breeding since 2002, and am listed in HCA's breeder referral list - which requires a strict health-testing and ethical protocol. (Lori never asked to see copies of my health tests, of which I keep strict records).

I challenge ANYONE to contact my vets to question the socialization of my puppies when they see them at 6 wks. We all know Havanese puppies start bonding with humans early, and I have cried many times when puppies go home, but there is nothing more heartwarming than seeing a new owner with their new puppy.

I do not want this email to come across angry, but rather informative and educational to all those, including Lori, who would cast negative comments upon people whom they know nothing about. Let's try to be open-minded and learn from each other instead of throwing disparaging comments out there! Our beloved Havanese deserve us to be the best we can.
Phyllis


----------



## davetgabby

bumping


----------



## Charleysmom

TilliesMom said:


> wow, good for you not supporting puppy mills/ backyard breeders! that took a lot of strength to walk away. Those poor dogs and puppies, breaks me heart just thinking about them stuck outside in the freezing cold... and puppies not cuddled and played with.. what is WRONG with people!!?? uggggg
> 
> I know your puppy is out there waiting for you and you 2 will find each other soon!


Hi, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that Avonlea is a puppy mill or anything like that. She definitely seemed like a good breeder but I just expected something different than what I found. This is all a huge learning experience. Years ago when I got a pup, it was so different. I saw an ad in the newspaper and bought a fabulous mini poodle that I had for almost 17 years. Who knew from health testing, socialization, and all of it? But now, it seems that the process has changed and I'm just not sure where to draw the line on the quality to look for. With so many qualities to look for in the breeder - do we want them all or is some enough?
I'm not sure of the answer but I imagine when I meet a breeder I like and trust and I fall in love with my puppy - maybe that's when it's enough. It's hard to explain, but somehow the puppy I met a couple of weeks ago - I didn't fall in love with. I knew he wasn't for me. Whether he was just sleepy for the two hours I was there (in which case it's my bad luck) or just not what I was looking for we just weren't a match. And so the search continues.....


----------



## hmrgang

Lori -
I hope you get the puppy of your dreams. I could tell you have a lot of love to give a puppy and will take great care of them. Keep searching - there ARE a few breeders out there that have older puppies available. Good luck!
Phyllis


----------

