# Cesar Millan techniques



## Julie

I am a big fan of the "Dog Whisperer" Cesar Millan,and I use some of his advice and techniques that I pick up from watching his shows.Any one else out there too?:biggrin1: 

In a recent thread I mentioned I sometimes correct Quincy(well Vinnie too) with the 2 finger bite from Cesar.I only use 2 fingers because Quincy isn't a big dog.......for those of you who may not know,this is where you use 2 or 3 fingers and mimic a bite(like from a mother dog)and I touch him firmly at the base of the neck(like where the mother would carry a puppy from).It works for me 100%.:whoo: 

I wanted to know if any of you use any of Cesar's techniques and if so,what ones?


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## Oreo55

I've seen the first season of the Dog Whisperer. It was a really interesting show and I learned a lot about dog training. Cesar is incredible, but there's a controversy about his techniques being inhuman and cruel, so I'm not sure if I should use his techniques or not. :decision:


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## Julie

I have not heard about any controversy regarding Cesar.Inhumane?Cruel?What things?Please enlighten me.......I live in a "bubble" and sometimes do not hear these things......


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## Oreo55

Julie said:


> I have not heard about any controversy regarding Cesar.Inhumane?Cruel?What things?Please enlighten me.......I live in a "bubble" and sometimes do not hear these things......


Well, according to Wikipedia:

"There are professional trainers, behavior consultants and behaviourists that state that Millan's methods are inhumane, referring to the use of alpha rolls, flooding, and constant leash "corrections". According to them these techniques can have serious behavioral consequences. While critics agree that Millan does not hit or physically injure the dogs he is working with, they believe that subjecting a dog to these techniques is inhumane treatment.

Dr. Nicholas Dodman, the director of the Animal Behavior Clinic at the Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine of Tufts University, has said "Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will be only transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in some cases dangerous, and often inhumane. You would not want to be a dog under his sphere of influence. The sad thing is that the public does not recognize the error of his ways." [16] In a February 23, 2006 New York Times article Dr. Dodman says of Millan's show "My college thinks it is a travesty. We've written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years."[5]

Jean Donaldson, The San Francisco SPCA Director of Academy for Dog Trainersstates, "Practices such as physically confronting aggressive dogs and using of choke collars for fearful dogs are outrageous by even the most diluted dog training standards. A profession that has been making steady gains in its professionalism, technical sophistication and humane standards has been greatly set back. I have long been deeply troubled by the popularity of Mr. Millan as so many will emulate him. To co-opt a word like 'whispering' for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable." [17]

Dr. Ian Dunbar, Director of the Center for Applied Animal Behavior in Berkeley says "He has nice dog skills, but from a scientific point of view, what he says is, well ... different," says Dunbar. "Heaven forbid if anyone else tries his methods, because a lot of what he does is not without danger." [18]

Dr. Andrew Luescher, Veterinary Behaviorist for the Animal Behavior Clinic at Purdue University says "Millan's techniques are almost exclusively based on two techniques: flooding and positive punishment. In flooding, an animal is exposed to a fear (or aggression) evoking stimulus and prevented from leaving the situation, until it stops reacting. To take a human example: arachnophobia would be treated by locking a person into a closet, releasing hundreds of spiders into that closet, and keeping the door shut until the person stops reacting. The person might be cured by that, but also might be severely disturbed and would have gone through an excessive amount of stress. Flooding has therefore always been considered a risky and cruel method of treatment." [19]

On September 6, 2006, The American Humane Association issued a press release condemning Millan's tactics as "inhumane, outdated, and improper" and called on The National Geographic Channel to cease airing the program immediately. [20]

Also in the month of October 2006, The Alaska SPCA refused to sponsor a dog rescue benefit by one of Millan's trainers, stating "We just don't align ourselves with the Dog Whisperer's methods"."

Of course, Wikipedia isn't the most reliable source, but a few people that reviewed 'The Dog Whisperer' DVDs said that his methods were inhuman. Personally, I don't think they are, but I'm not a dog expert. :redface:

Also, the author of the book 'The Loved Dog' is against using techniques like Cesar. Though she didn't say him by name in her book, she stated that she did not like his methods.


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## Julie

Paige,
I also use those same ones you mentioned except for the step over your dog,and wait to you tell them it's ok to eat.I never knew those!We have to step over Vinnie all the time,as he lays right in the middle of a doorway or in the path etc.I should know better......but I thought after he was stepped on a few times,he would catch on!I will make him move from now on!Feeding time has not been an issue with my 2 guys,but I do make them behave at the doorway before going out.I tell them to wait....after they are tethered,I say "ok Vinnie,or ok Quince" and they can walk on out.After one time of darting quickly out the door,I was fed up and scared to be honest,that they would get hurt,run off etc.This has worked fantastic for me.
I have not seen on tv anything controversal about Cesar,or seen anything mean or cruel in anyway........alright people.......enlighten me....PLEASE!


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## Julie

Thank You Oreo 55.......our posts crossed!


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## Oreo55

Julie said:


> Thank You Oreo 55.......our posts crossed!


You're welcome!  So, what's your take on the controversy? I'm really not sure what to think.  Cesar's dogs seem to love him and seem happy (judging what I saw), but reading professional opinions that are against his methods make me reconsider his techniques...


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## Oreo55

Oops. :redface: All this time I've been spelling "inhumane" wrong... lol.


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## Tom King

I have grown up with horses, dogs, and cats. I have seen Cesar do NOTHING that is inhumane or cruel on the TV shows. He has taken on some extreme cases that other "methods" have not produced results with and turned the animals around in a short time.

Now those of us with Havanese never need to use some of the devices, such as choke collars or shock collars, that he uses with some of the aggressive breeds.

Some people feel that it's cruel to animals to keep them as pets. All our dogs, cats, and horses disagree.

Some people don't speak dog and never will no matter what their title is, their position is, or how many "methods" they have come up with or copied.

As seen on the TV show, Cesar gets my vote as the best and most natural dog trainer I have ever seen. If dogs are going to live with us they have to live by certain rules and understand what these rules are.


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## Oreo55

http://www.americanhumane.org/site/PageServer?pagename=nr_news_releases_dog_whisperer

Here's another article that's against Cesar's techniques from the American Humane Association.

You make some very good points, *Tom King*. You're right; dogs need to be treated as dogs, not as people. Some of Cesar's techniques can be harsh, but many of the dogs on his show are completely out of control and need "tough love". I don't think it's right to use choke chains and some other tools he uses, but he only uses them on big, aggressive dogs, not little puppies.


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## Julie

Well,I guess everyone has their opinions.I think alot of the dog trainers etc.perhaps are just not able to themselves perform like Cesar does and are perhaps tired of hearing about him and his success.I know I am amazed at what I have seen him do on tv.Some of those dogs no one wanted and he has given them a second chance at a new life.I'm talking about the ones with owners already,about to give up.Remember that boxer?Great family,just misinformed by the rescue/vet.So I guess I am not convinced that he is inhumane.He certainly has rescued alot of dogs in his own pack!
I agree with the guy from Berkley---------I could not get the quote to post right......but I also agree he has nice dog skills,and it could dangerous....I know I don't want to stand in front of a nasty pit bull and rehabilitate it or it's behaviors...that is why I would not own a dog that I was not ready, willing and able to train.That is why there IS a need for guys like Cesar.He is man enough to do it and take on the challenge!When the owner ISN'T!I say shame on them............


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## Oreo55

I agree, Cesar is amazing. He's the epitome of a "dog person".  And yes, I'm sure some trainers claiming his methods are "inhumane" are just jealous of his success, which is kind of sad. =/


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## Julie

I guess I have another comment too:
About the "flooding" they mention:
If a dog "lives in the moment" how can they be scared?Using spiders as the example with humans........If a human is scared of spiders,and they are put in a closet full of spiders,I'm sure it could cause them emotional harm,however,if a human "lived in the moment"as a dog does(or that's what they say)the human would not know the fear of the spider as they would of just experienced them for the first time.Right?ound: 
I think those people are wrong :nono:
CESAR :rockon:


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## Lina

I guess it's also important to keep in mind that no matter what you do or say there will always be people who don't agree with what you are doing or saying. Specially since Cesar has gotten so big, it is easier for people to speak against him, but there are also many people who agree with his methods and use them.

Many people who consider themselves completely "humane" are the same ones who think we shouldn't keep dogs or cats in the first place...


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## casperkeep

I am a big fan of cesar and do not see any inhumane things that people are seeing but like someone said earlier ia m not a dog trainer. My husband and I use some of them. Our cocker spaniel is a food nut and we make her wait before she can eat. When she hears ok then she can eat. One time i looked over and saw her just sitting there stairing at her food. i asked my husband did you tell her ok and he forgot!!!! She did wait until he said ok!!!! It works for us. We also do nt let them out until we tell them ok. They both sit and we open the dooor and they wait till we say ok. I think you have to know what works best for your dog as well!!!
Meg


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## irnfit

I like Cesar's techniques, but you have to take everything with a grain of salt. You have to know your own pet. Cesar's cases are to the extreme, from what I've seen. Most of the people don't have a clue what is going on with their dogs. If they would take the time to know their breed and then take some training classes, maybe they wouldn't need Cesar.

I know that people think I am mean when I am trying to make my 2 stop barking. I gently grab them by the muzzle and tell them "No Bark". It works and they haven't been hurt (well, maybe their feelings)


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## marjrc

I think this is a great topic for discussion! I have felt so-so about Cesar Milan's method, but I have to admit that I agree with some of what he says and does. I don't get the Nat'l Geog. channel so can't see his shows. I've spotted a few here and there on other channels over the years, but that's it. There's a trainer who works very similarly to Cesar on the show "At the End of My Leash" on the Slice channel. I've seen that one often, though I think the guy is totally obnoxious and way full of himself! lol The guy drives me nuts! :frusty: Still, I did learn a few things from both these trainers.

Thanks for posting some of the things you do with your dogs, Paige. I think that when you have several dogs, you need to teach pack behavior. There are many things that I keep reminding the family about. It's easy for people to see their pets as children, but it doesn't do anyone any good to humanize their feelings and actions too much. Dogs have a language all their own and we need to learn it as they need to learn ours. Once I realized that, I saw how some training methods just can't work. Learning the psychology of the dog is fascinating to me.

I will enjoy reading more on this subject and see what everyone tries at home, what works, what doesn't....


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## ama0722

I love him too! I think the best thing he has done for me and my furkids is remind me in his way that they are dogs first! Isabelle is not furry white princess/maltese/dog but dog/maltese/furry white princess! She also reminds me of this when she finds dead animals and rolls on them! I have also learned a lot about my dog's body language from his book and his shows. I joked with some of my training group, if he was judging Dora and me in the obedience ring she would be perfect. She wants to walk about a foot behind me...unfortunetly, heeling isn't scored that way!

I think what he has done for rescue, and preventing dogs going into rescue situations is absolutely amazing. I also think there are people who get crazy about leashes, etc. need to deal with some aggressive abused pitbulls before they decide what is considered inhumane!

Amanda


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## SMARTY

Years ago I did obedience training with my Boxers even put a couple of titles on them. We used choke collars and praise. Once they had a command it was there for life. You did not continue to use the choke collar it was just a tool to get their attention. I am now training with a clicker and food for Smarty’s reward; I will see which works the best in the long run. Most proven methods are only cruel if the person using them take them to the extreme or do not know what they are doing. I also watch the Dog Whisper and have not seen anything that would make me think he is cruel. I agree that you can not treat a dog like a human and get satisfactory results. No matter how much we love them.


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## DAJsMom

When we decided to get another dog, I watched Cesar and read his book. I also read a book called Katz on Dogs by John Katz, which was very helpful, well written, and enjoyable. It was similar to Cesar's book in that it was more about living with your dog than about specific dog training techniques.

The trainer we took Dusty to was in the Ian Dunbar school of things and we learned clicker training there. Someone in the class asked about training methods, and the instructor said that just about any method will work if it's used correctly. I think she's probably right about that.

I think I've learned a bunch from Cesar, our trainer, and the Katz book, even though they all take a different approach to things and emphasize different aspects of life with dogs.

I want to add a custom smiley to this, but I am completely overwhelmed by the choices!


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## Oreo55

Wow, I never knew my post would spark such a debate! I agree with what *irnfit* said about taking things with a grain of salt. What's good for one puppy is not good for another. Some dogs are more sensitive and may not handle Cesar's harsh techniques as well as others would, I think.

*DAJsMom*: I know, I was surprised at how many smiles there are for this forum! :laugh: Oh, and who exactly is Ian Dunbar? I've heard his name before but I've never read up about him, heh.


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## dboudreau

Here is an excerpt of "Practical Dog Training" chapter in "The Complete Dog Book" published by the American Kennel Club in 1941.


"It's your job to check him back with a quick, light jerk should he lunge ahead or drop back and sit down. If it is the latter pay no attention but keep right on walking and check him up to you repeating his name and "heel" everytime he strays form your left side."  



I think we have come a long way in Dog & Pet training.


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## DAJsMom

I haven't read up on Ian Dunbar, so I can only go by the experience in beginning obedience class, but we used clicker training, lots of treats, and everything was positive reinforcement, no negative. No use of the word "no." They weren't really into the dominance/pack leader stuff at all. Again, I am not familiar with his philosophy, just the class experience. Maybe someone else knows more.


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## Oreo55

Thank you for the information, *DAJsMom*.  I think those are the techniques the trainer is using at a puppy obedience class we went to with Oreo. They gave us a clicker and we're going to see how it works with him. If the "positive reinforcement" method doesn't work, maybe we'll try Cesar's technique.


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## ama0722

I think it is important to have a lot of tools in your training bag. Clicker training doesn't seem to work for my maltese. She doesn't like to offer behaviors as she doesn't like to be wrong. I have a hard time giving her corrections especially in agility since she will run off equipment and has quickly learned she can hide in a tunnel. So a lot of times, I physically show her what to do, and she learns quickly. A lot of training is about experimenting and getting to know your dog!

Good luck,
Amanda


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## Leslie

I love this topic! We are big fans of Cesar's and are using many of his pack leader techniques with Shadow. She is a "strong-willed" little thing and would just love to "rule the roost". The breeder say this is often the case with the "runt" who had to fight for everything right from the start. She is beginning to understand she's not in charge, though. Some of Cesar's "rules, boundaries, and limitations" that we use with her are the same as Paige mentioned. Also, we've found that if we don't exercise her enough her behavior is much more difficult to manage. I agree with Cesar when he says, "A tired dog is a well-behaved dog." That describes Shadow exactly 

I believe the controversy regarding Cesar stems from jealousy and misunderstanding. 

Tom said it best, "Some people don't speak dog and never will no matter what their title is, their position is, or how many "methods" they have come up with or copied.

As seen on the TV show, Cesar gets my vote as the best and most natural dog trainer I have ever seen. If dogs are going to live with us they have to live by certain rules and understand what these rules are."

~Leslie


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## Julie

Kudos to Amanda!

Don't you all think alot of it is just plain common sense?You wouldn't put a choke collar on a 3 pound puppy?You would put a choke collar on a bulldog or boxer,pitbull etc.

I have used a choke collar on every single dog I have ever had.Of course,I know how to use one...but this was a tool to use to teach them to walk on a leash etc.

I think the pet owners need to apply whatever techniques work for them,but for me in my house....I am the pack leader.Because of that alone,my dogs respect my house,furniture,etc.I'm not mean,and they still make mistakes,but they also know what their boundaries are.They are spoiled and well cared for too.eace:


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## Missy

We just started working with a woman who is training us very much like Cesar. We have issues with Jasper walking and growling at cars and people. When she showed us how to use a choke collar and how we had to hold ourselves when we walk him --- he totally changes from an anxious dog to a happy go lucky dog. As she said, he thought he had to be in charge- and that made him crazy with responsibility. Now that we're in charge he can just enjoy his walk. This is still very much a work in progress but so far it seems to be working. He seems happier and is choking himself less than he did on his normal collar so I don't feel it is in humane.


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## irnfit

When I had my 2 big dogs, there was no Cesar. There was, however, Brian Kilcommons. I went to a couple of his seminars and saw what he did with dogs, and it was just amazing. So I trained my 2 using his method, which is positive reinforcement. He believes in using a choke collar, and this worked great for training. Once my dogs knew what I expected them to do, I stopped using the choke collar and went to a harness. They were very well behaved and I had control over them when we went for walks.

However, I wouldn't use the choke collar for training my Havs. I get great results using positive reinforcement and treats, which is how we are taught in puppy class.


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## Eileen Marshall

Hi, Im a new member and I love reading about all your experiences. I have one of Tom and Pam Kings wonderful dogs. 
Bendito (a blessing) Ben son of Posh. I had standard and toy poodles for the past 30 years and a Havanese is a new breed for me. I thought Poodles were smart but Ben is an amazing, wonderful experience. He is bright and learns quickly. I have used the clicker with him and he listens and I find training him a breeze. He has been easier than the Standards. I think Tom and Pam are wonderful breeders/trainers. When the puppies are ready to leave at 10 weeks they have had a lot of basic training and it made it very easy to carry on. I have not seen Cesas programs but I have seen some of his tapes and saw him on Oprah. I was impressed with what he could do. It is all attitude and consistency from what I have experienced. IM loving the Havanese experience and look forward to a long association of learning from all of you.
I'll post a picture as soon as I figure that out.


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## Julie

Welcome Eileen!
So you are one of the lucky ones to have one of Tom and Pam's puppies huh?:biggrin1: How cool is that?!!:whoo: 
Course.....we want to see pictures!We are all about pictures!!:focus: 

I have heard clicker training is very effective...and just recently found a clicker for purchase.I am going to try that as well for different little commands etc.For me,I can not imagine not taking control of your dog,like Cesar shows,being a pack leader.He is incredible to see.The one show that stands out for me is with a bazaar lady all in pink,with a dyed pink maltese,that kept peeing on the floor when someone came to visit.:couch2: Anyone else remember seeing this show?


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## Eileen Marshall

*Clicker training*

Hi Julie, thank you for the welcome. I had never tried clicker training until a couple of years ago. It worked very well and I found the dogs I worked with responded to it. It was a transition from regular obedience training that I had done for years.
Once I got comfortable with it I loved it.

Anyone have helpful hints on updoading pictures? Im not very successful.

Eileen


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## Tom King

Hey Eileen, I going to jump in off topic on this thread and just offer a few instructions.

Click on "Forums" on the toolbar above. Another view that shows all the different forums will come up. Go to General Discussion. At the top are a couple of threads that are "Sticky's" (a sticky is a way that the moderator can get a thread to stay at the top of a forum). One tells how to resize a photo so that it's not too large to post. Also the movies that Melissa made about how to use the Forums are well done and should be a help to anyone new to forums.

If you decide to start a thread of your own you just decide which forum it should go in to make it easy for someone doing a search for a particular topic to find later and hit the button to create a "new thread".

Hope this helps anyone who might use the information.


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## marjrc

Welcome Eileen! Great to hear you have one of Pam's and Tom's babies. I'm sure they did an excellent job with your Bendito.

I love reading everyone's take on training their dogs. There are many methods that can work, but I do agree with much of what Cesar says and does. I also love using the clicker and positive reinforcement so do a bit of both. Taking the basic obedience classes did teach Ralph and I that our dogs are dogs, not little people with fur - no matter how cute they are. :biggrin1:


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## ama0722

Julie,
As a maltese owner I definetly remember the crazy pink maltese! I thought Belle might look cute with some pink highlights but I know everyone would beyond harass me as if taking a 5lb fluff ball into the training ring with a pom pom in her hair isn't harassment enough!

I just think a lot of people love their dogs the wrong way and he reminds them don't be selfish, do what is best for your dog. My little maltese loves to run, roll in poo, and truly be a dog. I even need that reminder and not to pick her up and protect her as much! We still have some stubborn issues but those I think will be works in progress for ever!

Thank goodness for the sweet Havanese temperment that helped calm her down or we might be on that show!

Amanda


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## EMarie

Nothing is wrong with ceasers methods, I have 2 havanese and a am. pit bull. I use his methods on all three dogs and it works well, obviously I use a different degree of agrissivness with the pit vs the havanese. But if you are consistant and stick to the same rules than you will suceed. All dogs need rules and the mail thing to NOT do is treat them like people. Dogs are dogs and need to be treated like one, This does not mean they can not be spoiled (as all of mine are) but they get walked for 45 min every morning and sometimes 30 minutes at night. Sit before dinner and leaving the house ect. If everyone would listen to Ceaser then the united states would not have so many problems with their dogs. Haven't we watched the show, I personally get so irritated with the owners on the show sometimes. I hope this helps a little bit.


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## Eileen Marshall

*Cesar*

Thanks everyone for the welcome and the help. This is Ben and he is responding to the clicker and to Cesar's philosophy. 
We do not use a choke. Almost 16 weeks he is chewing on anything he can get in his mouth so if IM not watching him he is in his x pen. He lays by my feet when IM on the PC. That is nice, I know where he is when he is sleeping.
We are walking every day. He does like to stop and just sit for a spell to check out the new area. I let him do that. I want him confident and IM finding I can talk him through any new experience. I love the fact that he is not frightened of new things. Is it the Havanese way to stand back and size up a situation? 
Anyone ever read or hear about the 16th week being crucial as far as experiencing fear? Had to do with brain development. Also not to expect them to be reliable with potty training until then. 
Any Havanese members in Long Island on the North Folk?

Eileen


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## marjrc

There are a couple of members from your area, Eileen. Nice to see a picture of Bendito. What a cutie! I can usually talk the dogs through a situation as well. I take walks along a busy boulevard so they can see and hear buses, trucks, people and other dogs. Some things make them nervous there, but we keep walking and I keep talking.  I'll also make them sit and stay so they can more easily absorb all the action. 

I sure wish I could catch Cesar Milan's show, but dont' have the station it's on.


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## Julie

Eileen,
Your Ben is a cutie!My "Ben" graduated this past weekend!Photo in the May Challenge thread.......I'm not sure about 16 weeks being a certain time for brain development/experience.Others here would be probably know.I got Quincy at 16 weeks of age.He was so much fun,and such a little cutie at 5.3 pounds!How exciting!:biggrin1:


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## whitBmom

I thought I would chime in and let you know on Oreo's progress. So far, he finished up his first level of obedience and I am very proud of him. He walks nicely on the leash and is very obedient at home. Now, some of you already know how shy he is, and how he used to bark at other dogs, surprisingly in this particular class he never did and he actually made friends with a another havanese and a cute little, and also shy, dachsund. He continued to be scared of a large, but super-friendly, poodle and a spaniel. So on graduation day, I decided to ask how to help Oreo not to bark at other dogs. For some reason, during the timeframe we were going to the class, Oreo REALLY started to bark and growl at ANY dog that passed by. It was crazy and I was just getting to the point that I did not want to walk him anymore. So, I asked the trainers if they could please offer me advice on how I could help him with this. They suggested to distract him with treats until the other dog passed by. The goal was to eventually get Oreo to look at me the moment he saw another dog, seeing how I would give him treats when other dogs were around. They wanted Oreo to associate good things (the treats) with other dogs. I did this as soon as we were on our next walk - but Oreo would be happy to eat the t reats, just he would still be intent on barking. Let's just say, that no matter how diligent I got with the treats, by the end of the second day, he was now lunging, barking and growling at other dogs. Geez, with Oreo I find he is very stubborn and will not lose his focus on what he has intention of focusing on. So, I decided that this treat method is not for him and I found a doggie daycare that agreed to help me socialize him. I also spoke to their trainer - they have a training facility there that teaches obedience and agility - and I made an appointment for yesterday. Oreo was a totally different dog with trainer, and to let you all know, she also uses Cesars methods for behavioural issues. She told me that I was inadvertently rewarding his aggression and that the treats had to stop immediately because that was the primary reason for his aggression escalating so much and so quickly. She taught me how to posture myself and to observe my body and look for any tension - not even a finger could be tense. I was to only correct his barking and move on. Well, lets just say that my walks since yesterday have been so much more pleasant. I will be picking Oreo up from the doggie daycare this afternoon and I will be taking him for the remaining two days of this week. I have decided that Oreo will be going to the doggie daycare 3 times a week to see that other dogs are not bad and that he needs to relax.
Sorry about the ramble, I had to share.


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## Missy

Helen, So glad to hear the details of Oreo's progress. He sounds a lot like Jasper. We too found a trainer here that uses the Cesar approach and it seems to be working as well. Isn't it funny that these sweet little stuffed animal looking dogs can get quite spastic if they are uncomfortable. I just can't imagine your sweet little Oreo in that picture standing so pretty- barking and growling--- But I have seen it happen in Jas. to the point that one neighbor stopped in her car to say "you should get that dog a trainer" I was mortified that anyone would think less of Jasper-- So we took her advice. Great to hear Helen. :whoo:


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## Laurief

Missy - boy that neighbor had a b_lls!!! :boxing: Them be fightin words to me!!! 
Laurie


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## whitBmom

Thank you for your support. I was beginning to feel like a failure of a mommy because I obviously was not leading him the way he needed. I am sure this journey will have its challenges but really this breed deserves to be the most comfortable in any given situation. They are such easy going dogs with us and give us so much and they are also such an admirable breed in terms of temperment and good looks.  I find that a havanese owner must be "on the ball" because these highly sensitive and intelligent dogs need correct guidance to bring out the best in them.
It's weird, as I am typing this, I am coming to realize that these challenges help me to understand Oreo better and help me to get with the program to get on board to helping him.

Paige, I look up to you, and one day I hope to be half as good a pack leader as you are. Kudos to you for breaking out the Cesar Milan moves on Nigel - you go girl!


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## whitBmom

Missy, I agree with Laurie, I'd be bringing out the artillery..... LOL:fencing: :argue: :boxing: :fish:


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## Laurief

I just for the life of me cannot IMAGINE ever saying anything like that to someone. Maybe only if the dog attacked one of us - but come on!!!
Some people just have nerve.


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## Missy

Laurie, yes- she does have nerve. we joke that she and her family have a compound around the corner from us--- several generations live in 4 or 5 houses right next to each other--- and she is the matriarch of the family. I was insulted at first, then furious, but you know it got me off my butt and we found this wonderful woman who is training us to train Jasper. She has been especially working with my husband who does most of the walking with the boys and he can get very hot :frusty: ---and it is funny to see her use the cesar methods on my husband too :fencing: 

He is very angry at a couple of neighbors with big dogs who have charged him and Jasper. Came out that he was charged as a kid--- and she was saying you have to let go of the anger for Jasper's sake because he can sense it and you lose your Alpha status....:whoo: just a little side story


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## Laurief

That is very interesting. I was just saying to someone else on the forum that the pups seem to be able to sense your moods!! You better keep an eye on those "compound" people. You wouldnt want them to do anything to jasper when you are not looking! They probably live all together cause no one ouside of their "family" can tolerate them. haha


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## Laurief

tHATS exactly right!! And my neighborhood has quite a few houses for sale- SO CALLING ALL HAV OWNERS - MOVE TO CENTRAL NJ!!!!eace:


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## marjrc

You guys are funny!! O.k., calling the moving company right NOW!! 

Helen, that is such a great thing about Oreo! You are so on the ball about it and really did the right thing by asking for help. It sounds like the daycare/trainer is going to be very good for the little tyke. 

I agree that it is a darn shame to see any Hav with an agression problem since they are so comical, smart and entertaining. Our little Sammyboy gruffs and growls often when meeting new people and dogs, but I say 'quiet' and keep moving on. Ricky is a barker but all he wants is to go right up to people, stand on his hind legs and say "See how cute I am? Scratch behind my ears - plleeeeeeaaaaase!!" lmbo 

Paige, you obviously know what you are doing with your pack there. You inspire me too!


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## Julie

That is awesome Helen!Cesar techniques really do work,even on the best dogs!I think it is terrific what you are doing for Oreo!Way to go Helen!

Missy,I'd be so angry I could spit at your neighbors!:flame: People like that just suck!And as my daughter says...they suck and swallow!:biggrin1: We have some "not so great" neighbors too!I think anymore,it is really hard to get friendly neighbors...look out Mass......us hav people are moving in!:bolt:I bet Jasper is an :angel: :biggrin1:


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## whitBmom

Julie said:


> People like that just suck!And as my daughter says...they suck and swallow!:biggrin1:


Priceless!!! ROFLMBO ound: ound: ound:


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## LuvMyHavanese

My main issue with Tripp (Dreamers perfect:angel is he does NOT like it when people come over(or maybe its just my husbands family he doesnt like:tape: ) We live out in the stix so there are not a lot of people over (no its NOT a compund )& there are NO sidewalks to take my babies out for a walk. Plus there are too many dogs that roam around(people here dont believe in indoor pets:frusty: )and pit bulls & rotts etc..are VERY popular in VA. Though they get plenty of exercise-we do not have as many social interactions as i would like.

Tripp will usually calm down after awhile EXCEPT when our 2 year old nephew comes over.He is so deathly afraid of him that if he sees him-he will not revisit that area of the yard for days. 

I was searching for a good training school(i visited one place to check it out & could not wait to leave-it was gross. NO WAY would i bring my babies there). I finally found a wonderful trainer who does private lessons 1st to see where any trouble spots are before she introduces them to a group class. She thinks he just may have some confidence issues. Everyone thinks he is the 'unfriendly' one which makes me so sad because he is THE sweetest & most loving dog i have ever seen. So we will see.(sorry so long:sorry: !)


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## Missy

Julie, Jasper is an angel. After he barked and growled at "said neighbor" he practically jumped through her open car window to greet and lick her. But it is because he is such a sweet gentle boy- that I want the world to see him that way. I know how you feel Helen about not wanting to walk him when any car, person or squirell can turn them into bucking, barking, growling, broncos. But he is getting better. we are using a slip/choke leash along with the cesar, I am boss, you walk with me attitude. The good news is this trainer said not to worry about Cash, he is a well balanced dog.


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## marjrc

Shannon, I understand your problems. Sammy came from a rural area in Ontario and I think didn't have visitors very often. The first few weeks here, he'd growl and was really scared about people coming over. Less than two weeks after we got him, we had 3 repair people come by in 4 days. LOL Nothing like exposing him often, I say.  

It happens. We live in the suburbs and there is a lot going on around us, but when you live like where you are, what can you do? I'd be afraid of roaming dogs too!! :jaw:


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## LuvMyHavanese

He is used to tractors, plows, tillers, mowers, bush hogs, all kinds of farm equipement & he shows NO fear around anything like that. He loves the vacuum too. But bring a 2 year old around.........


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## whitBmom

Shannon, I understand what you are saying. Oreo has had many exposure to kids, but not to too many dogs and men. So I can empathize with you. It can get a bit frustrating and sometimes downright embarassing, but I do believe we can help them. Hang in there and see if you can get some visits and correct him when he does his behaviour. Just hang in there, you can do it.

Missy, I too am using a slip as Oreo didn't respond to the "Shssssh". He likes to Yelp and I don't do it hard. My trainer did it with the same intensity, just the flick of the wrist and he didn't argue. I asked her what was wrong because I was concerned I was hurting Oreo, and she responded by telliing me that seeing how I had previously let him get away with barking he is now protesting and trying to get me to let him have his way again. It was interesting, but I was still a bit doubtful ( I guess typical mommy behaviour), so when I went out for our hour-long walk this morning, and he began barking I noticed the complaints or "yelps" subsided tremendously and I was not doing it any different. I think he is getting that aggressive barking is unacceptable behaviour. 

But I know that with Oreo it a few steps forward and then a couple of steps back...sigh. 

We can do this!!


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## David

For those of you who do not get the National Geographic Channel, why not go to your local library and suggest that Cesar's video DVD's would be a welcome addition to their video library....I am sure that there are a lot of people who would like to see them.

David


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## ama0722

I don't have aggression issues with Dora but I do with my maltese. She loves people but can be very aggressive with other dogs. It is something I would never use treats with- bad bad idea. I confidently remind her who is the leader of our pack. We do this with the mother bite on the back of the neck. I usually just have to make the motion for this. It may look silly (all my friends do laugh since her size) but it works. They usually get the biggest kick out of Belle laying down and rolling over with this method. She is showing me that she suddenly remembers I am the boss. 

I do have a positive word that we use "good social" when Belle has a positive experience and lets another dog sniff her. I don't use treats but I praise her. She was really good over this last weekend with the other dogs and I used this a lot and gave her love after we left the other dogs.

It sounds like you might be working with a more experienced trainer which will help!

Amanda


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## marjrc

Amanda, great tips!!! I will have to try that out on Ricky when he barks too much and on Sammy when he gets overly aggressive towards strangers. Thanks!


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## Julie

What I use as a quick response is just simply "hey".In the house,outside etc.it always seems to work,and is better when on a leash,followed by a quik snap up.I also could never get the shhh..of Cesar,so I think it just is a matter of getting a quik verbal response of noise that works for you.

Just a couple nights ago while out walking our dogs,we ran across a yellow lab loose.Of course,it was dark and we didn't see it till it was growling and coming at us.My daughter freaked out(she had Vinnie).I instinctly said "hey" kinda loud and the lab retreated to the yard,but was still growling at us.I told my daughter come on,just ignore him,look ahead and just walk.It was kinda scary to be honest,but I didn't let it show.....we did the Cesar thing!The happiest note......both of my guys had no response.Vinnie looked at that lab like he was just stupid,and Quincy started to bark,but I corrected him before he even got 1/4 of a bark out.I believe that is why the lab didn't get us....had my dogs barked back and carried on,I think an attack would of been certain.I am certainly surprised that a lab would be growling and pursueing us,but relieved I have watched so many Cesar shows!:whoo:


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## Leslie

Great story, Julie. Just goes to show that being a calm, assertive pack leader works. All 3 dogs fully understood that you were in control. Way to go!

~Leslie


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## whitBmom

That is great Julie - way to go!!!eace: 
Speaking of Cesar Millan, I bought his 2 DVD: Vol 1 Mastering Leadership, Vol2 Becoming a Pack Leader. I found it interesting that in Vol 2, they focused on a Mommy Havanese and her puppies!! I found that to be an interesting coincidence


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## Laurief

That is great - I did take the advise from a post I read earlier about grabbing behind the neck. Last walk we went on Lily got a little nasty sounding, aggressive with dogs who were barking at her, so I grabbed her & she stopped. It was interesting as she used to bark at everyone & any dog. Now when we walk, she only barks at the dogs tht bark at her. She lets the people and quiet dogs pass - so I guess that is progress. 
Laurie


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## Missy

Way to go Julie, Vinny and Quincy and your daughter too. What's her name:whoo:


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## whitBmom

Laurie that is great!! Any progress is wonderful. I am at that stage with Oreo. The calmer the dog and person, Oreo is nice and quiet and pays no attention. As I keep working on maintaining that I am trying to expose him more to those yappy, growly and aggressive dogs that he can see and hear, while trying to maintain my composure and his. Its work, but I do believe it will get there


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## Laurief

I found that distracting her before the dog starts to bark & run at us works the best. If I am giving her commands, sit, lay down, or giving treats, she will ignore the barking dog. It is just hard to get her to stop, once she starts so I try to nip it in the bud!


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## whitBmom

I find now, he is starting to look up at me and see where I am looking. At times when I notice his eyes getting all huge and him tense, I quietly and softly "SHHHHHHHHHH" him and he will settle. Oh it is so much better than 2 weeks ago when he got to the point that he barked at everyone and everything no matter what - he was sounding the alarm at everything!! Now, after taking him out on long walks in the morning and the corrections just for the barking he has settled down and is beginnning to enjoy his walks - I can see that he is not so worried anymore  I guess, he is just coming into his own and realizing that not everyone is "safe". It is such an interesting journey that is full of challenges and rewards


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## Cosmosmom

I agree . I have never seen him do anything inhumane either . I know there is some controveresy . You have to remember he lives in California . There are always people who have to make a statement and stir the pot .
He addresses signifigant behaviours and problems which I think is very relevant and helpful . 
Some of the other training tapes I have just did not work for some of the concerns that Ih ad with Cosmo .. Cosmo now waits to go through gates - and sits for his food and has to move for us .
I have not seen all his shows I have the tapes but I just got through half . 
The one thing I did see on a couple of his shows is that he literally saved some dogs lives - their behaviour was so out of control the dogs that would have been put down .
His dogs really know him as the pack leader and it is interesting to watch the pack hierarchy and their behaviour .. 
I understand he charges $ 350.00 an hour so his tapes are a good deal .


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## Julie

Way to go Laurie and Helen!eace: 
I didn't know he had a havanese on tape!:suspicious: I'm gonna have to get that!:biggrin1: I just watch it on tv when it is on.......sometimes I miss,others I have saw 3 or 4 times!I should probably just buy his dvd's or something huh?Which one is it Helen?

The two finger poke on the neck really does work,but like you say Laurie,timing is everything!

The lab incident the other night.......I don't know what I would have did,had that been a pit bull,or a more vicious dog!It was scary enough as it was.Lacy and I would of probably screamed and ran!:bolt: I know as calm and assertive as I was,I don't really want to find out!


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## Laurief

Def. not something to stick around for. You were best to just walk away.
laurie


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## whitBmom

I believe it was in his new series of instructional DVD's - vol2 Becoming a pack leader. It was interesting that they showed the havanese with her pups as an example of a calm-assertive leader


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## marjrc

Could have been a different story, Julie. Glad it worked out! Staying calm and assertive is what saved you all from a potentially dangerous situation.

Great work with Oreo, Helen! I am so pleased to hear he is enjoying the walks more. It's so very sad to think our pups aren't happy, that they're stressed just doing every day things like walking outdoors with their master/family. Good news! 

Laurie, sounds like it's working! Keep it up! I've started 'biting' Ricky on the back of his neck when he barks too much and it works. He'll flatten himself on the floor and 'gruff' and complain which is so cute, but also so much better than incessant barking at Sammy because he's being ignored!!


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## whitBmom

Yay, Marj that is great to hear  I am now understanding that all this gruffling, growling, barking, snapping etc is just all the methods they employ if they want to assert themselves or they are feeling that they have no choice but to take charge.

I find that Cesar's corrections are humane and I find that Oreo is more and more responsive with less and less correction. I just have to keep at it and continue this way of being. 

I think we are getting the hang of this - and I am loving it


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## Julie

Way to go Helen!Don't you think the hardest thing to do is to be consistant?To me,that the hardest.....they look at you cute,or they didn't bark "as much" etc.but I know from doing the techniques and watching Cesar...it really does work!:biggrin1:


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## BeverlyA

Boy! I'm so proud of all of you! :whoo: I too have been facing the aggression problem with Cooper for the past couple months and have started working with a wonderful trainer. 

Cooper seemed to start this behavior when my husband lost his job. It mostly shows up when people/kids/dogs walk by the house, but occationally while we are walking on leash too. I knew I had to get professional help when Coopers barking/growling brought the unleashed neighbors German Shepard from across the street over and on top of Cooper. Let me tell you, it happened so fast, there was nothing that I could have done, or the owners could have done, if the GSD would have wanted to kill Cooper. We were nothing but bystanders in reality. Cooper was on leash, in our own yard, with me near by, and still there would have been no way I could have at that moment saved his life. 
Holly, the GSD, has never shown any sign of aggression before going after Cooper, not even a bark. I'm sure, in their dog world, Cooper was probably doing something socially wrong or maybe disrespectful, who knows, I know it didn't come out of nowhere like it seemed. Holly is still not leashed, so I know that I have to take every precaution possible to keep Cooper safe, and try to train him not to encourage attacks from others. BTW, Holly is owned by one of our cities Finest, sigh.

The trainer we are working with is terrific. She has worked with Cesar here in Nebraska when he was filming here. She's worked with Carol Lea Benjamin, who wrote the book that the group class we're taking is taken from " Surviving your Dog's Adolescence". Cooper, Lily and I are really working on our leadership skills, using exercises such as the "Sit on the Dog", "Scoot the Dog" and "Walking with a Purpose". Nothing that is mean or abusive what so ever, just simply demonstrating that you are the one that makes all the decisions, no matter how simple. It becomes very empowering for me, and very relaxing for them. Of course we've got a long way to go, but at least now we have a direction, and a leader, and that's a wonderful step!
A tired dog's a happy dog!eace: 

One side story the trainer told me about Cesar...When he was here, one of the cases was working with a farm dog that chased tractor tires. Cesar figured that the heeler was trying to "heel" the tractors and didn't know where the safe zone was, like for cattle or horses, etc, where they can kick, so Cesar got an e-collar. They decided to give the tractors a 20 feet space, then would give the dog a single hit on the collar. She said it was really lucky that they got that first shock on tape, because the dog would not do it again. I remember watching the episode, and thinking, I couldn't even tell when the dog got the shock, it just turned and went and laid in the shade. She said that was just how it happened there. Like the dog said "oh, that's how close I can get to the tractor without getting kicked" and then he was fine. Cesar told the farmer to think of it as his work gear and to put it on every morning when they went to the fields for 3 months, but he never once had to use it again 
She also asked Cesar why he never taught the usual commands, sit, down, etc. and he said that the people that he generally works with are having such a problem being the leaders of their dogs, and that's really what they need to learn to do. He also said that people talk too much, lol.

Sorry for the length of this post. 
Congrats to all of you leaders out there!

Beverly


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## Julie

That is so cool!I know I have seen that show several times!They already had a shock collar,but were not using it,or perhaps he brought another type.Cesar drove a combine on the show,and was just thrilled!It was a dad and daughter.

That's kinda scary about Cooper and the german shepherd.The GS should be held to the same "rules"I think.If it belongs to a police officer,why can't he verbally keep his dog in his yard?Maybe he needs a shock collar?:biggrin1: Keep working with Cooper....it'll come!Cesar's methods work!eace:


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## irnfit

Mine will bark at people walking past the house, also. They are protecting their territory. I tried the water bottle, but that doesn't work. Shelby just sticks out her tongue. "No bark" works with Kodi, hopefully Shelby will catch on also.

They love to sit on the front lawn. I don't know why, except maybe it is cooler, because there is a big tree that shades the front. I usually have them tethered when I'm out front, but yesterday, they were running after the neighbors little girls and having a great time. I didn't tie them up and then Kodi spotted someone walking on my block with a Siberian Husky. He took off after the dog and scared the poor thing out of its fur. This is not good and he never did this before. He really just wanted to play, but the other dog didn't know that. And the owner was so frightened that she kept pulling her dog away, and Kodi kept following. When I finally told her to stop walking so I could get Kodi, everyone calmed down. Kodi went over and smelled him, and then walked over to me. I took him home and put him in the house. Thank goodness the Husky was a good dog. Another dog might have hurt him. 

Most of the time I can calm him down by just asking if I can approach the other dog. And this only happens if we are on a walk, or near the house. It doesn't happen at the dog run. Any comments on how to handle this?


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## ama0722

Bev,
Great post. We actually ran an agility course last night completely silent. My instructor wanted us to realize nagging our dogs isn't what they need and that the react to visual ques so much more than we realize. Dora didn't miss a beat on the course and she looked amazing.

E-collars scare me because I see them used and abused in performance too much. I think real life issues like recalls or staying away from tractors are things I would say use whatever you need to!

Be very careful with the small dog giving the big attitude. Once your dog learns that you are the proctector, they will not do that nearly as much. Everyone says my maltese doesn't know her size but she definetly does. She gives off big dog attitude to scare the dogs away. We always have had issues with reminding Isabelle who the boss is. I would highly recommend everyone read Cesar's book for some things you can do. I still have to give Belle occasional reminders (last night was one of those nights!)

One of the things I have had to learn to do was not nag my dog. Actually give the dog a firm correction and not give her a choice. Dora is naturally not a leader but boy Isabelle will take the leadership role every chance she gets. I have also really had to enforce the no picking up Isabelle rule with my husband. We did the bad little dog thing of picking Belle up when she was bad and this caused a lot more issues. If she growls at a dog, we don't pick her up we give her a correction and make her submit to us.

As for barking,one of the trainers I worked with recommended teaching a bark command and then no bark. Isabelle barks when she is happy, sad, protecting, playing,etc. We have tried many different things and what honestly worked the best for me is a little squirt lemon. I haven't had to do this in about a year. But when she is full of energy and we have guest or something where I cant get the energy out of her. All I have to do is get out that plastic lemon and she goes and lays down. She knows I mean business at that point. I think for naturally vocal dogs, it is more of a management issue than a training. I don't think I could ever train her not to bark. I just work on managing the barking when she gets out of control. 

Dora only barks when she is being protective and you tell her to lay down and she does it... gotta love that easy going havanese personality!!!

Amanda


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## whitBmom

Bev, that is so true - I DO talk too much sometimes and I have found that Oreo responds better when I say nothing  I would love to meet Cesar Millan in person, simply to "feel" what his energy is like when he is being the pack leader. I got quite a lot from my trainer and now I finally "get" what calm assertive energy is.

Amanda, I do believe that we always have to be on guard and simply manage what comes natural to them. I mean, they are dogs and they will bark, as long as its not for the wrong reasons - fear, protest, aggression etc. With Oreo I find that he will try to overstep his boundary by trying to bark "excitedly" on walks when he sees other dogs. It is a step up from his "big, tough guy" act, but I know he is trying to get away with it. For now, I cannot let him get away with it even once. I am now constantly reviewing the book Cesar's Way, as well as the 2 dvd's that now starts my collection. I find that a regular dose of Cesar, keeps "me" right on track.

Amanda, keep up your amazing work - the fact that you can control your pretty Belle off leash and she listens, attests to the fact that you are a pack leader - you go girl 

Bev, thanks for that post - it once again shows that Cesar does have a handle on things. We can learn a lot, and although our Havs are not "red zone" cases, we can employ some of his simpler techniques and get quite a response. May I ask what is "scoot the dog"? I have never heard that term. I agree with you " A tired dog is a happy dog" and when my dog is tired.... I'm happy too


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## BeverlyA

Hi Helen, Jill, our trainer taught us this little exercise when we had her come to the house, then Tuesday night at class we used it again before going into the loose leash walk. I'll try to word it as best I can, then I'll see if I can find it on a CD she made for each of us with word documents and I can email that to you if you'd like.

The point of the exercise it just to get the dog to pay attention to you and to physically defer space to you. With the dog on a short leash and facing you, move towards the dog in the hope that they will back up to get out of your way, but keep watching you. Jill is very lively and animated and bouncy and does speak in a relatively high pitched voice, unlike many dog trainers, but it works wonders with Cooper. She described the actual movement to something like walking with a soccer ball, the dog being the ball :suspicious: 
She keeps the leash pretty short and holds the dogs attention, speaking to them, saying, "scoot, scoot, good scoot!!!" etc. every couple of steps back they take. She can do it almost like a dance, I'm not that springy. I'm more one little step at a time saying "back, back, good back!!!" Cooper tends to whirl around in a circle, but comes back to face me, which she says is fine, or else he bounces backwards on his back legs, which is also fine, as long as he's the one getting out of MY way. It's the same principle of not stepping over your dog, but making your dog get out of your way.

Please let me know if this makes any sense. I'm not that good at putting my thoughts into words.

One really exciting thing about the class I'm taking is that there is another Hav in it!!! I didn't know there was another one on this side of the state and here's one in my own class! I didn't have a chance to visit with them, but I know his name is "Chewy", he's a little older and larger than Cooper, with longer hair and hopefully next week I will be able to visit with them and invite them to the forum 

It was soooo scarey when the GS came after Cooper. We have been neighbors for 15 years and have never seen that side of one of their dogs. The worst part was the sound, the growling and snarling of the GS and Cooper shrieking even though Holly hadn't mouthed him. He got away from her once and she went after him again a second time, that was scarey too.
Their dogs respond really well to the husband, but he is rarely out in front with them and I've never seen them on leashes.

Right now we're doing better on the barking, especially when using the squirt bottle, but my groomer has now complained about him :frusty: saying that he whines and barks intermittently the whole time that he and Lily are there. I love my groomer and trust her to not hurt Cooper, but now I'm going to need some advice on how to handle this situation.

It's always something! :focus: 
Beverly


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## Laurief

That is exacly what our trainer taught us about leash walking. Keep the leash short, on your side & be VERY energetic. "Lets go" "lets go" lets go" in a high excited voice. It really does work. When on least logan will roam with the nose on the ground. If I start the lets go = he picks his had up & trots next to me. It is great!
Laurie


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## marbenv

You guys all give me hope! I'm going to get Cesar's book. I've had dogs before who were pretty well behaved, but nothing I could really count on to consistently obey. It wasn't my great skill that made them obedient--they were just good dogs. I took our schnauzer to obedience class and we flunked! Actually the trainer said I flunked--its the human's fault, not the dog's. She was just so stubborn. It didn't matter how many times I said sit and pushed her butt down, she just refused. I was beginning to wonder if she was slow or hard of hearing, but she was just stubborn as anything! I felt like a real loser in the dog obedience world. But now I have hope. :whoo: I was doing many things wrong--she was the alpha, i can see that now. I'm actually looking forward to the training experience now!

Thanks!! This forum is great!:drum: 

Marsha


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## ama0722

Marsha,
Very true- it is usually the handlers fault. I think for a lot of people that is the first step- don't blame the dog! Dora has grown up with the same dog in her training classes. They started together back in the puppy class where it was just about socialization. They have competed against each other, etc. Gizmo is very bright, she tends to pick things up quicker than her too. Her handler has gotten really frustrated when Gizmo doesn't get it right away. So I took her in agility and ran her myself. My point was to show her it wasn't Gizmo's fault at all but actually Gizmo's mommy! She has also developed all kinds of behavioral issues too- digging out of her crate (she is on her 3rd!), etc.

GSD's always scare me around my small dogs because a lot of them are aggressive and might not even realize it is another dog. There is always a few in the obedience competitions and luckily Dora hasn't had a negative interaction with them so she is as brave as can be but I always hold her back!

It is amazing how much you can teach your dog once you have a good working relationship. Otherwise, they still learn but it can be a lot harder!


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## marbenv

Amanda,

You set a good example. I think you are the gold standard here for obedience/agility/therapy training. I'll use you for a resource person after I actually get my dog!

Marsha


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## Laurief

Marsha, I always found that pushing their butts down was NOT going to make them sit. They automatically push back on your hand. Hold a treat in your hand to the pups nose, then pull it up & back over their head. The pup will follow the treat & automatically sit. As you move it say "sit" - only once. When they sit, have a party!! and give the treat. Do this about 5-10 times, 4 times a day. they will get it very quickly. then I start to make them sit for their food, when they want to come in the door. Give it a try - it really works. 
Laurie


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## whitBmom

Marsha, be patient with yourself too - forgive whatever happened in the past. Laurie's suggestion of the sit is a great one, that is pretty much how I taught Oreo to sit and he will sit automatically. I make sure he offers a sit or down before giving him any treat or his meals. Don't you worry, if you try this method it works 

Beverly, thanks for that clarification. I didn't realize I was doing that here at home. Oreo moves out of my way when I say "excuse me". I am now working on him moving out of the way for my hubby and kids. But isn't it amazing to find that once we train "ourselves" our dogs simply start to behave?! Its a wonderful journey


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## ama0722

Marsha,
I simplly started about 2 years ago when we got Dora and she would walk 5 feet behind me and Belle pulled 5 feet in front. I thought this is never gonna work and I realized I was doing it all wrong! I have a lot of havanese and other breed mentors that have taught me so much over the last 2 years. Through them I have truly made my dogs my best friends!

Obedience and behavior are very different but they say it is very hard to have a good performance dog that doesn't have behavior down first. There is actually an article in Front and Finish all about that this month.

I love the havanese want to please personality and that definetly helps. I think a lot of it is remember the best relationship you can have with your dog starts with you recognizing that he/she is a dog not a furry little human. I made that mistake with Isabelle. So Dora got a bonus that I realized she might like to roll in dead animal, chase squirrels, and eat raw bones! I also learned the best dog is a tired one. My tiny dog can hike with the best of them and if she hasn't been walked that day-she is gonna use that energy to be destructive.

Over the last week, I have been walking Dora but didn't have a chance to really take her out until the duck incident (probably another reason she took off away from me!) and then I took her last night to agilty practice and retrieve. She was such a doll to work with, she wanted to play and train so bad, it made me run around for an hour in the 92F weather!

Amanda


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## Julie

Amanda,
I just wanted to say.....I'm really glad you are on this forum.You know so much about obedience and agility and are willing to share your knowledge with others.:clap2:Thanks Amanda!:clap2:


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## maggiepups

I just wanted to put my two cents in since I was finally able to see the show for the first time last week. I watched several episodes because there was a marathon on, and at first I liked it a lot, but then after a while some of his techniques started to get to me.

I really like his overall philosphy which is basically that you need to take charge over your dog because the stem of most dogs' issues is the fact that they feel they have to assume the role off "alpha" even if they don't want to. Most dog want to feel secure, and I think he really hits the nail on the head as far as that goes.

What I don't like, however, is the techniques he uses for each dog, no matter what their problem area is, seems to be exactly the same. I don't like that he thinks that "calm and submissive" are two behaviors that compliment each other well. I don't want my dog walking around with her tail half-mast and her head hunched down because she is afraid of me. I don't want my dog to be afraid of me ever! I think it is entirely possible to be alpha dog without being so dramatic. In certain cases, his methods are extremely valuable and effective (particularly with aggressive dogs) but it doesn't translate that well to less serious offenses. 

I think I prefer the lady from "Its Me or the Dog". Most of the problems she faces on her show are more realistic problems that almost any dog-owner can relate to. She comes up with really clever ideas and methods to correct them, too. She has the same philosophy as Cesar, without the iron fist, and she still gets great results.


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## ama0722

Patti,
I don't think it is the same at his training center. The dogs don't walk around like that. It is usually the behavior they exhibit when he is being active in their home. I think my girls know I am the back leader but they definetly don't walk around with their tails down and cower. However, if I yell at them for doing something. They usually do lie down. I just think that he does what he needs to do to get out of control dogs to take that position.

Amanda


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## Julie

Patti,
"It's me or the dog"--that lady is Victoria Stillwell.I kinda like that show too.She seems to be the female version of Cesar.It is a bit on the dramatic side as well.....but I think that is for tv.I think Cesar is very gentle with the dogs and have never been disappointed watching his shows over and over again.I think he is absolutely amazing.Being calm and assertive is the person......being submissive is the dog......that is why you don't have a dog walking 10 foot behind a person with his tail dragging.You have a happy dog willing to follow the alpha(the human).Everyone has a difference in opinion,but he has helped alot of dogs both big and small with big issues and small issues.......eace:


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## ama0722

Yeah, it is good to remember that if all dogs were able to be trained the same way, we wouldn't have hundreds of different methods! Even my own training has to be changed for the personality of just my two dogs!

Amanda

P.S. Showcased by an old photo I sent out when Dora was a puppy and was going thru her chewing stage and the maltese was a good dog (boy did that switch quickly!)


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## whitBmom

Amanda that is such a great picture - they both look so cute!!


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## marbenv

You know, I raised four kids and I know about being the one in control, etc., etc., but it is so hard to tell this cute little ball of fur "NO"!! I NEVER had that problem with the children!! Chewing the rug--"Oh, isn't that cute??", jerking me on the leash-- "Oh, look how independent he is?", crying and barking because he doesn't want to stay in his pen when I know he needs a nap--"Oh, just look how much he loves me!" Boy, have I gone soft in the head, or what??
He's got me wrapped around his little dew-claw after only three days!! HELP!!:brick: 

Marsha


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## SMARTY

Marsha, we have all been there. It is so funny have fast they learn to control us. Smarty's mind is always working, cry and they will come, stand by the refrig and you get a treat, go to the door and they will take you to play, look sad and they will pick you up, chew on a plant and get a new chewy. She probably thinks we were so easy to train. She has been very good at her trainging, but not as fast as we were.

My DH says he has never seen me allow a dog to control us so much, but she is so cute.


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## Julie

Marsha---
That is the key to it---it really is!Just like your kids (only easier)because the dog listens!It is hard because they are so cute,but you need to be firm and say a strong no,and Oscar will catch on fairly quickly.The housebreaking is the hardest part......but chewing on rugs etc.nip this early...otherwise you create a monster chewing on woodwork ,shoes etc.By the way,when they get older,it STILL is cute because they look at you all fluffy or rough and tumble...but a fanastic dog starts off as a well behaved pup.You will reap the benefits later.Be firm and consistant,just like you were with your kids.

Your husband took him to Lowes?How cool is that!?I think there could be a second hav in your future!:biggrin1:


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## marbenv

Julie,

He swears--no more dogs!! We'll see. He sure loves this one.

And you are right--FINALLY- someone will listen. Kids never did--still don't!! 
Thanks for the encouragement.

Marsha


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## Julie

Marsha,
Well I wouldn't worry about Hav2 for awhile yet!:biggrin1: There's plenty of time!Oh yes---Havs are alot easier then kids!That's for sure!I know you will have no trouble.The hardest thing though really is,is getting over the "he's so cute".A few never do,and those are the ones that end up in shelters etc.not house broke at 2 or something........you know.I love Oscar's face in your avatar.He is a real cutie!How did you decide on Oscar for a name?


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## marbenv

Julie,

I wanted a Hispanic type name, but couldn't find one we both liked. I thought of Oscar de la Hoya, the boxer. My husband likes boxing and we watch it sometimes together, so thought that would be a good name for him as we both like that boxer and it was a "tough" enough name for my husband--he didn't want any "sissy" boy dog!:biggrin1: He's accepted but is mortified that we have to have Oscar neutered, so the tough name helps!ound:

At least that will help me stay consistent with the training. He won't want me to turn him into a permanent baby!:baby: 

Marsha


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## Amy R.

I was out-of-town last week and watched a Cesar Millan marathon. We don't get him on cable at my house, and I found all the difficult dogs problems and how he seemingly resolved them really fascinating. I was mesmerized every night watching this marathon (after funeral-related stuff all day, a nice escape). Also, my best friend/dogsitter raves about his book. 

I agreed with his overall position of your being in charge, of course, but as I watched repeated episodes, I found his techniques questionable and troubling. They seemed to involve "flooding" or desensitizing in an extreme way, intimidation, and physical cruelty-----the jerk on the neck and especially the little back-kick bothered me. Perhaps with very aggressive large dogs this is the only answer, but I cannot imagine kicking a little Hav like that. EVER. All of the dogs shown seemed either too agressive (before Cesar) or too submissive (after Cesar). Cesar strikes me as someone with a bit of a Napoleon complex, surrounded by his pack of compliant dogs. Just my impression! He's a mixed bag, for sure.


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## Havtahava

Amy, you made some interesting observations! Granted, he's usually working with dogs that have extreme problems, but I agree with you that most of his methods are way too aggressive for Havanese.

Like all trainers and mentors, I don't completely dismiss a person because they do or say something I don't like. I try to take the good and utilize that to benefit my own knowledge and the welfare of my dogs.

However, having said that, I have a problem endorsing Cesar Milan on anything since he's a large supporter/advocate of CA AB1634, which will cause a lot of problems for breeders in our state.


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## Amy R.

I completely agree with you, Kimberly, that it's unwise to dismiss someone because we disagree with elements of their work. I was especially impressed with his overall calmness when working with the dogs, and one can always learn something from a professional with tons of experience. Especially me! ;-)
I'm really distressed, however, to hear from you that he supports CA AB1634, which I have been writing letters against. What a disastrous bill for dog lovers and breeders, so intrusive. Actually I wrote a letter to the SF Chronicle last month taking a position against it, which was published.


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## Amy R.

Wow, I did it, I got my avatar up.:whoo: No, Biscuit is not hitting the bottle here, just posing with his favorite toy, the empty Pepsi bottle.


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## SMARTY

What is CA AB1634?


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## irnfit

CA AB1634 was a bill that they tried to pass in California. It was for mandatory spay/neuter by age 4 mos of dogs and cats. If you were a breeder and didn't want to fix you animals, then you had to pay an fee for a license and hefty fines if you weren't a breeder and didn't fix your dog/cat. You can do a search and read all about it.

Thanks to a very heavy campaign, the bill was pulled.


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## Havtahava

Thank you for explaining Michele.

The bill is still in process. It will be revisited at the start of 2008 after some revisions are made. As it is now, it looks like anyone will have to pay a $500 fee (per dog per year) for a dog that has not been sterilized. Yes, they say there will be exemptions for breeders, but most of us would not be able to qualify for that exemption.


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang

*Very long post!*

Just wanted to share my thoughts on Cesar Milan. His basic philosophy is pretty much right on. Every owner should be the calm, assertive pack leader for their dog.

Remember that every episode you've seen has been edited for TV viewing. You aren't seeing everything that took place during his visits.

Also, Cesar is used to being bitten. That's his choice based on his methods. But I don't think the average dog owner is so forgiving, and to use some of his methods on certain dogs and in certain situations is almost surely inviting harm to yourself.

A few episodes have really stuck with me for various reasons. There's one episode in particular where the narrator says Cesar had been following a dog around the yard for 45 minutes to get it to stop barking and growling at him. Really? 45 minutes? I tend to think that's at least flooding, if not cruel. The dog stopped because it was exhausted. To me that was more a display of wearing a dog down than getting it to accept people in his yard.

There is (or was) a lawsuit against him because one client left their Labrador with him at the Los Angeles facility. That dog died, strangled by his collar, while tethered and left unattended on a treadmill. I don't know if this has been settled or not.

So, while I agree with his basic philosophy, I don't agree with all of his methods. I do think that his mantra: exercise, discipline, then love - is a sound one.

Personally, I think most of Cesar's clients are victims of the "Lassie" syndrome. With that one show Disney managed to convince the American public that dogs are capable of the most sophisticated human emotion and thought. Lassie could do the most extraordinary things. She knew how and when to ambush the bad guys. Lassie knew when to intervene and when to sit back. She could save Timmy from his own folly and still get him home in time to wash up for dinner. Most of the time it looked like Lassie was smarter than her family! We ate it up as kids, and we believed that our dogs were also able to reason. Other shows came along to continue the trend. Generations later, dogs are still paying for this unintended fallout.

As long as there are people who think their dogs have human reasoning abilities, there will be a need for trainers like Cesar Milan.

Whew - that was my .10 on the topic. :sorry: for rambling.

Wanda


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## Amy R.

Well said, Wanda. You are so right on about the "Lassie" syndrome I think. And I loved Lassie. Anthropomorphism at its finest. I hope I've spelled that correctly! ;-)


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## Julie

I don't know about the California bill,but I think all dogs and cats should be spayed or neutered.....unless you're a breeder.As pets it should be required,and through a good breeder it is.......

I see how Cesar could get behind spaying/neutering........after all he has a large pack from people who didn't do anything.......shelters are full.


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## radar_jones

I like some of the things he does on the show. He seems to really help some of the owners out there into getting their dogs back as well as their sanity. I've seen him do things such as give a dog a litte tap on the rear with his foot to get them off balance or as a corrective measure which I find kinda odd but I guess it works. 

I would think that this would remind the animal that for every thing that they do which is undesireable they get a little reminder that it is unacceptable and through negative and positive reinforcement they will learn. 

He's pretty good I guess. I haven't seen anything yet that has made me condemn what he is doing although I would really like to get the details on some of the more "inhumane and cruel things" he has apparently done on his show. I say apparently because I have not seen these things for myself so I can't comment on them. 

I understand he has a lawsuit pending for a dog that died while in his care or maybe it was resolved but eventhough it still brings to light some of the methods he has been using as perhaps a little out of whack or unethical to some people. 

I do like some of the things he does with regards to being the pack leader and being in control of the dogs that he helps along with the owners especially the crazy pink lady who had the maltese I believe it was, if not someone feel free to correct me. This dog was pissed off I think about having to be in pink eventhough I believe that dogs are colour blind and only see shades of grey but then again you never know. 

Some methods he uses I find are vaild. Dogs are Dogs, People are People and there is a line to be drawn with regards to that distinction. Yes dogs should not be treated like people with regards to certain behaviours and practices although I have met some people who are very cruel to others who need to be caged up for it like Mr Vick down there in Viginia but that's another story. He's a special Case that's for sure:focus: 

Anyway to wrap this up (it is however my 500th post). Cesar Milan seems top have a pretty good grasp on some tried and true methods of training dogs such as establishing pack leader mentality and getting the dogs to socialize with other's and using some of the motherly methods of reinforcing rules that have been laid down no matter what. I watch "The Dog Whisperer" and think for now it's a worthy show to be seen.

Derek


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## Amy R.

Julie, spaying and neutering is generally a good thing, of course, you are so right about the shelters being full. 

But this particular bill here in California is very sweeping and draconian, and will adversely affect Havanese breeders, as Kimberly pointed out. It penalizes responsible dog owners and breeders, and will not stop the irresponsible ones. If passed, it will likely put a damper on dog show activity in the state, as well. And it will be costly and unwieldy to administer. Just another bureaucracy we don't need in California.

Enjoy your Sunday!


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## Havtahava

> this particular bill here in California is very sweeping and draconian


and 


> It penalizes responsible dog owners and breeders, and will not stop the irresponsible ones.


That's exactly it, Amy.


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## Julie

I don't know about the Ca.bill at all.........
I was just commenting on the spay/neuter part.........


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## Julie

Derek,
The pink maltese show--------
It was NOT because the dog was angry about being pink.......this maltese was a submissive pee-er.When her guy friend came to the door,she would pee.She also had some other issues that the owner(one wierd woman)needed to be calm and assertive.eace:


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## irnfit

Levine has put so much time and money into getting this bill enacted, when he could have put the energy to much better use. Maybe he owns a puppy mill. They are going after the wrong people. It is always easier to go after the good guys, I guess. They need to enact laws to close down the puppy mills. These are the people who need to be fined. 

Sorry, :focus:


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## lfung5

I have not read this entire thread, so forgive me if I repeat anything already said. I used to be a huge fan of Cesear, until I bought the entire DVD collection. If you watch the episodes back to back, he is very repetative. He never seem to get to the root of the severe problems like separation anxiety. His answer to everything is wear the dog out. Put the dog on a treadmill for 5 hours. I think that would cure all problems, because the dog is exhausted. It's a temporary fix, but the problem still exists. 
For the most part I like some of his techniques, but I am in the TV industry so I know what happens when the cameras aren't rolling and the editing process. I personally believe when the camera are off, he beats the dog into submission and then the dog is willing to do anything. I hope I am wrong for the dogs sake. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I also read an article saying he was harsh and have also heard he hits the dogs a bit.


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang

irnfit said:


> Levine has put so much time and money into getting this bill enacted, when he could have put the energy to much better use. Maybe he owns a puppy mill. They are going after the wrong people...


This is exactly right! If I remember correctly, the revised bill said that breeders who wanted exemptions had to submit to annual inspections of their property to ensure they have proper, clean kennels for their breed stock. That means a separate building with concrete runs and adequate septic drainage, etc. What you'd expect to find in a commercial operation, not your average hobby breeder who keeps their pets inside the home!

In fact, this bill should state the exact opposite. That any breeder who wants an exemption should submit to inspection so they can rule OUT commercial breeding levels. Obviously Levine has no idea what he's talking about on this subject.

Also, since breeders already pay a breeder's license fee to breed, I don't understand why they have to pay again for this exemption. Or am I wrong on this point? I'm pretty sure in L.A. County the breeders pay a license fee.

For the life of me I cannot fathom how anyone could read this bill and think it's any kind of an answer.

:focus:

Wanda


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## radar_jones

You know something I have watched a lot of Cesar lately and have noticed that most of the time he will repeat the same things. He'll either tire the animal out a lot to get them to conform and by then they are so tired that they will often conform out of sheer fatigue....even a person would submit to something if it meant some rest once in a while. 

I think he uses the same methods for different dogs plus he always seems to bring them back to meet he pack. I espscially like the one where there was a dog that was too shy and didn't know how to behave around other dogs. Cesar brought the dog to meet his pack and then slowly introduced dogs at different stages of soacial development. He had one dog that was submissive. one that was known for being very social and others that would fight back for dominance. 

Sometimes he seems to really know his suff and others it just seems like he's using the same tricks all the time.

Derek


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## lfung5

I agree Derek! I had the same observations after watching his DVD's back to back.


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## radar_jones

Well I haven't watched the DVD's but I have gleened the repetetiveness often just from watching the show in the mornings on NG who was running a marathon this week I think it was. It would have been just like watching the DVD's I imagine. I don't know if they ran the shows in succession after eachother though. I didn't cach the whole marathon but I did observe from shows spaced apart.

Derek


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## lfung5

What got me was a dog had seperation aniexty and his answer was to put the dog on a treadmill and wear him out. That is not a permanent fix if you ask me.


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## radar_jones

Sounds like a bandaid solution. Why would anyone do that. Not only is it dangerous but it's clearly not the answer. I wonder if anyone has challenged him on his methods?

Derek


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## SMARTY

I do think Cesar has some very good points most of the time. I have seen a number of things that I would never do. The problem with a lot of dogs is lack of exercise and their human family not understanding them. If you own a large dog and do not walk, run and play with them daily, you can expect problems. People expect their dogs to act like people and they are not. I would think it very cruel to take a large dog and keep it in an apartment or small yard. I stopped watching him when I saw him use a shock collar on a dog that could not get along with a cat in the house. This may have been the only way but it really bothered me.


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## Julie

Everyone has their own opinions on Cesar and his techniques.....but I think they work,and the pet is better off then it was before he arrived and that is the goal.I think it is repetitive because people do the same stupid stuff with their dogs over and over again.If you have a dog and don't exercise it,you're gonna have problems,if you let a dog chew on furniture and run the house,then don't complain when the darn dog chews your expensive wooden antique.......it is common sense.People need to understand that a dog is a DOG----not a HUMAN.Treating a dog like a dog,a follower, is number1.If a person is unwilling to be the boss,they shouldn't get dogs......they should perhaps get a hamster or a goldfish.eace:


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## radar_jones

I totally Agree Julie. There's nothing I hate more than someone who engages in teaching improper rules and discipline to their dogs and then when something goes wrong they look BEHIND them for the one to blame for it. I see it everyday with dogs that eventually bite people because the owner thought it was neat and cool to get them all mean so that the would have a great Guard Dog meanwhile they were raising a potential disaster that would have absolutely no control over it's actions because it never knew anthing other than that type of behaviour. 

That's one of the reasons I think its totally the Owners Fault when a Dog Bites someone. The lack of socialization and Confidence that people fail to teach there dogs translates into aggression. It sickens me sometimes that the real cause of these incidents is the lack of proper education in the rasing and responsibility of having a dog.

Derek


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## Julie

That is true Derek.The thing that people seem to miss is the fact that a dog can be 3 pounds or 150 and the rules are all the same.In fact,most little yappy dogs are known for being dominant.If a human is not standing up to a 3lb.chi. or a fluffy pom or maltese---then shame on them!It is silly to expect a small dog not to abide by the same rules as a big dog,and for that I give kudos to Cesar.He treats them the same for the most part,and applies the same rules.If it is repetitive,and it bothers you,then don't watch---but his techniques work.He has saved many dogs and I highly respect him.I would trust him with any dog I have or have ever had,as he knows what he is doing.I haven't seen any instance of him being cruel to an animal,and to be frank-I don't believe that,not even for a second.He could not beat dogs behind the scenes and get away with that.....good lord!People would video tape that and he'd be in a jail somewhere.There is no way the National Geographic Channel would have a guy like that on their airways,not even for a nano-second.The shock collar--the one show I saw with a shock collar was a farm dog,I believe here in Iowa.He used the shock collar to teach and prevent a dog from being ran over by farm equipment,as the dog kept trying to bite at the tires.Better a little shock in an extreme case as this was,then to end up with a dead dog!The dog had been hit before and I believe lost an eye!I haven't seen any other episodes involving shock collars,but I don't have the DVD'S either.It is interesting that the Stillwell lady in England uses the same techniques for the most part,but she isn't being critized here...just Cesar.Anyway,Cesar's techniques do work and are not cruel,and I stand behind that 100%...however repetitive,they work.People just need to be smart enough to apply them!eace:


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## radar_jones

Hi Julie. I can see many of the points you make as very legitimate and very observant. I can see that you obviously know what you are talking about. I believe that some of the only repetetive things I have seen on Cesar's show which are not enough to prevent me from watching is that I have seen him sometimes take a dog and run with them to keep them from straying during a walk or to keep them attentive when they are outside. I noticed it a few times but sometimes people out there can't walk with their dogs that way. they aren't able to walk that fast or even get up to a slow run with their dogs. 

Now having said that and hopefully putting it to rest I really do like his methods 99% of the time and I do see the big difference in what he does for these dogs. Sometimes you must go to the Extreme to erase some of the Extreme mistakes that have been made by the owners out there and sometimes Cesar gets criticized because people have "Humanized" their dogs so much that it's almost like they see Cesar doing these things to their own kids and we all know how people are with their kids sometimes with being protective.

I agree with the 3lb Vs. 150lbs dogs and the rules for both being equal. You wouldn't give different rules to your kids if one was slightly older than the other and they were both breaking the same rules!! 

My Sister was bitten on the mouth when she was very young by a Pekinese that jumped and nipped her. She was pretty badly traumatized and would not go near the dog after that. I can see your point when you say that if Ceasar was abusing the dogs then yeah someone would have put that crap on Youtube Long time ago and Cesar would be out of business. Perhaps we have some second rate trainers out there or some bleeding heart liberals with paper thin skin who can't come to grips with the fact that "Dogs Are Dogs and People Are People". 

Nuff Said.

Derek


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## BeverlyA

I agree completely Julie. That single incident of using an E-collar was here in Nebraska, I mentioned it and some inside details the trainer we used gave us on page 9 of this thread.

I have the utmost respect for Cesar and know that he has saved 100s of dogs, if not more, that people felt just couldn't be handled. He does often repeat himself, but many people have problems with their dogs because of a few basic leadership issues. He does stress "the walk" as a mentally and physically tiring exercise and I think this is a great thing. Most breeds aren't lap dogs and you're fighting an uphill battle with any kind of behavior issue when there's all kinds of pent up energy. People should also be aware that owning a dog is a responsibility, and exercising it is one of those responsobilities. You don't just go out, pick up a lab puppy, then expect everything to work out great around the house because labs are suppose to be good family dogs. A tired dog's a happy dog! eace: 

My girlfriend and I have tickets to see Cesar speak in St. Louis Dec.2 and I'm really looking forward to it.

Beverly


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## radar_jones

Nice Call Berverly. I think I would Like to See Cesar Speak if he ever comes to Canada.

Derek


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## Julie

Well,like I say--I'm a fan--so I agree with his techniques.Most people don't walk their dogs or if they do--very little.A happy dog is a well exercised dog!If you can't walk,run or rollerblade,then it is up to a person/owner how they are going to exercise that dog...I know I never would of thought of a tread mill.I see it's usefulness--but I don't know that I would use it...(Quincy and Vin don't have to worry,we don't have one).It is a good idea though for some....I'll give him that.I got a kick out of the show with the elderly couple and the naughty beagle.....he was in a wheel chair.He taught him to walk that dog properly with his wheel chair and the woman with her three wheel tricycle......it was charming and made that dog a true joy.eace:


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## radar_jones

I can see the good point with the Excercise Issue. I remember Cesar Saying that when a dog is too pent up with energy that isn't being used up then the only way for them to use it up is to find something to do and that is interpreted as the dog getting into trouble and not being a good dog and people need to recognize when a dog is truly misbehaving and when it's just not taken out enough and enabled to Blow Off Some Steam.

Derek


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## Julie

Yes---Beverly!How cool is that!I'd love to see him.....make sure you tell me about it ok?I can vicarously through you!!! 
OK--yes,that was Nebraska...with the tractor tire biting etc.I thought it was here close....not Iowa,but Nebraska!Sorry!My Grandpa had 2 farm dogs that did that too,clear back when I was a kid--before those collars--and 1 did get killed running alongside the bailer....They were named "Lucky" and "Laddie".Laddie was the one killed.It really happens!I got the biggest kick out of Cesar driving that combine.......eace:


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## radar_jones

I'm not sure if this will paste onto here but it's the "Friends Of Cesar Network" with letters and Recommendation from Dog Professionals backing Cesars work.

Derek.....

Through his work as a dog behaviorist both on and off the show Dog Whisperer, Cesar has touched the lives of many owners and saved the lives of many dogs. Below is a list of letters sent in by professionals in respect to Cesar's philosophy and methods. You will need the latest version of Adobe Acrobat Reader to read the letters.

Letter from Martin Deeley
Owner of the International School for Dog Trainers; Florida Dog Trainer
Executive Director. Co Founder and Past President
International Association of Canine Professionals (IACP)
www.dogpro.org

"Owners are learning to respect their dogs for what they are - dogs. Owners are learning that by understanding what a dog is and does can help them create a long and lasting loving relationship with their dogs without resorting to bribery and child like rewards. Being leader of the pack does not imply strong punishment and corrections but an assertive confident approach where the dog recognizes your leadership."

"The passion of Cesar Millan is infectious. His love of dogs not only shines through but becomes part of his persona in generating the needs in others to bring the best out in their dogs. His explanation are overflowing with human and canine behavior understanding and he realizes that without having the owners follow through and change, the dog cannot change either. It is a team/pack approach among humans and dogs that brings out the results he achieves."

About the International Association of Canine Professionals
The IACP is an organization established to maintain the highest standards of professional and business practice among canine professionals. Its aim is to provide support and representation for all professional occupations involved with any aspect of canine management, health, training and husbandry.

Letter from Missy Lemoi
Owner of Hope Lock Kennels Dog Obedience

"After having an opportunity to work beside Cesar, it was immediately evident that his ability to read a dog and the dog's respect for him were "the real deal". This man knows and understands animals from their perspective."

"I can only hope that more people will follow his methods and allow their dogs to be dogs rather than treating them as children in fur suits. As a result, there will be fewer dogs given up for adoption or euthanized as uncontrollable animals."

Letter from Jill Morstad PhD
Prairie Skies - Dog Training for Open Spaces

"&#8230;his command of a dog's attention and respect strikes many owners as magical."

"Cesar's singular genius is his message to owners, and strategies for becoming full participants in the household pack..."

Letter from Debra Oliver, D.V.M.
Blue Cross Pet Hospital

"I am immensely impressed with Mr. Millan's true love of dogs, his desire to enable humans and dogs to have happy healthy relationships and with the result she achieves."

Letter from Filomena Diaz-Johnson
President of Zion Animal Lovers

"He has given people hope that no matter what age you can teach an old dog new tricks."

"They still love their dogs, they may still put them in purses, but now they are making sure their dog is treated like a dog first."

"There are many wonderful trainers and behaviorist around, but none have reached the regular guy like Cesar."

Letter from Gayla Frances Evans
President & Founder of
The Ohio Rottweiler Rescue

"Cesar has a special place in his heart for Rottweilers."

"Knowledge is power and Cesar Millan is the power of his pack."

"Currently a DDB Rep. (Dogs Deserve Better) and a previous Animal Cruelty Investigator, I have seen first hand just how cruel people can be. I'm positive for some that Cesar has made a difference&#8230;getting involved in their dog's life resulting in both being happier."

Letter from Nancy Menise
Standard Schnauzer Club of Northern California
www.stdschnauzer.com

"What Cesar has to give is going to save lives. That is huge."

About the Stand Schnauzer Club of Northern California
The SSCNC, the Nation's oldest regional club dedicated to the Standard Schnauzer, has for 61 years sought to protect and advance the interest of the breed by encouraging sportsmanship among the owners, breeders and fanciers of the Standard Schnauzer.

Letter from Dawn Kemper
Executive Director at Young At Heart Pet Rescue
www.yahpetrescue.com

"Thank you, Cesar Millan, for enlightening and educating dog owners everywhere."

"After watching just two episodes of Dog Whisperer, I began to use Cesar's methods with my own dogs. Following his "Exercise, Discipline, then Affection" mantra, I watched my dogs become calm and submissive members of my pack. They are now so calm and submissive that I can bring the most anti-social dogs into my house without a single problem."

"&#8230;we still receive emails telling us how much people's lives have changed for the better thanks to following Cesar's methods."

About Young At Heart Pet Rescue
Young At Heart is a non-profit no-kill senior pet rescue or animal shelter for dogs and cats in Palatine, Illinois.

Letter from Judy Huston
White Shepherd Genetics Project, LLC of Howell, Michigan
www.wsgenetics.org

"Cesar's way of rehabilitating dogs and training people is nothing short of a miracle for anyone who will embrace the method and follow the Success Formula."
"I spoke with hundreds of Cesar fans&#8230;who are almost in tears as they express their gratitude for Cesar's help."

"Cesar not only knows dogs, but he knows people and the combination is unbeatable."

About White Shepherd Genetics Project
White Shepherd Genetic Project's goal is to educate and coordinate all owners, breeders and admirers worldwide of the White Shepherd, White German Shepherd Dog or Berger Blanc Suisse and to increase awareness of and improve upon the health, temperament and instincts of this marvelous breed.


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## Julie

KUDOS: Derek :KUDOS Thanks for posting that!
I haven't been to his website in awhile...I didn't realize they were there.


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## radar_jones

Here's a list of upcoming dates and locations for Cesar Speaking Seminars.

Derek

CESAR MILLAN'S 2007 SEMINAR DATES AND CITIES ANNOUNCED!

Due to his Dog Whisperer shooting schedule,Cesar will only be able to conduct 
10 seminars between September 2007 and January 2008. The cities include:

LOS ANGELES - BALTIMORE - SAN ANTONIO - SEATTLE - MIAMI - NEWARK
CUPERTINO (SAN FRANCISCO/SAN JOSE AREA) - ST. LOUIS - ATLANTA

The star of the Emmy-nominated hit series Dog Whisperer brings his magic and wisdom about dogs and dog psychology to this unique live special event. Fans of the show and dog lovers alike will be immersed in Cesar's world for three compelling hours, as the best-selling author of Cesar's Way reveals his secrets to happier, healthier relationships between humans and their canine companions.

Participants will come to understand how people can inadvertently play a role in their dog's behavioral "issues"; but also, how to change this dynamic by learning how to see the world through a dog's eyes. Using his gift as an educator and entertainer plus state-of-the-art multimedia to illustrate his unique concepts and ideas.- and most importantly his famous "calm-assertive energy" - Cesar keeps audiences spellbound as he opens them up to amazing new insights about man's best friend...and also, about themselves. Cesar's sense of humor and uncanny impressions add just the right amount of fun to the proceedings. See how Cesar's "fulfillment formula" changes lives as he works to make the world a better place&#8230;one dog at a time.

In this Seminar, you will learn: 
To recognize the "animal" behavior in dogs. 
How we humanize dogs and how this "people" behavior impacts the "dog" behavior. 
The different levels of energy and how they influence the dog's personality. 
What dog fulfillment is and how we can balance them by following simple guidelines. 
Cesar's leash techniques and when and where to apply them.

*VIP ticket holders will have an opportunity to meet Cesar after the seminar.

*No dogs, except service dogs, are permitted at the seminar.

Are You a Shelter or Rescue Located near a Seminar? 
Enter to win two FREE tickets and a Meet-and-Greet with Cesar!
To be eligible, post seminar details on your website or in your newsletter--or find another creative way to promote the event. Then send us proof of the promotion, and your organization will be entered in a raffle to win two free tickets and a Meet-and-Greet with Cesar! Email:
By Mail: [email protected]
Cesar Millan Inc. Seminar Raffle
P.O. Box 6338
Burbank, California 91510-6338


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## marjrc

...bumping......... :biggrin1:


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## Julie

The current job I have------I am so very thankful for Cesar's ideas,or honestly I couldn't even do it. As a kennel assistant I run into all types of breeds and all kinds of behavior. I have to say though---there just simply isn't a breed like a havanese or even close...and I believe it's more about the owners then the breed type in large dogs. It is a great feeling to come home to my boys:kiss:

I still watch Cesar all the time.:thumb:


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## ama0722

Julie- I like him too. I don't need many of his techniques on my own dogs (Belle a few). What I think he also does is work with a lot of dogs that others wouldnt. I do have my little stop what you are doing sound and it works although with my high pitch voice it does sound funny! I think if anything he did great for the average pet owner is get them to walk their dog-silly it took him. Especially the people who go out and get a high energy working dog cause they think they are cute and then have them locked up 9 hours a day.


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## SMARTY

I record Cesar and look through, I think he helps the owners as much or more with their problems than the dogs. Most of the time I totally agree with him, once I had to turn him off when he used an shock collar on a dog that could not get along with the house cat.


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## Julie

ama0722 said:


> Julie- I like him too. I don't need many of his techniques on my own dogs (Belle a few). What I think he also does is work with a lot of dogs that others wouldnt. I do have my little stop what you are doing sound and it works although with my high pitch voice it does sound funny! I think if anything he did great for the average pet owner is get them to walk their dog-silly it took him. Especially the people who go out and get a high energy working dog cause they think they are cute and then have them locked up 9 hours a day.


That is what I do too Amanda.I use the "hey" in a firm voice and both my guys stop what they are doing. It has helped me also just on walks with loose dogs. When they come charging at me and Vin and Quince---A firm and loud "hey" has caused them to retreat instead of bite my hind end!:thumb:

Most of the dogs I deal with (at work)are big dogs,labs,german shephards,cattle dogs,pit bulls,german shorthairs etc. I even had a strange mixed breed once that was 180 pounds! I kept telling myself,be calm and assertive,be calm and assertive.....ound:


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## Carefulove

My SIL got a pit-bull about a year (and change) ago. The dog now is almost 100 lbs and a beast. She is unruly, jealous and annoying. They think is funny, I think he needs discipline. 
Anytime someone arrives at the door, this dog pounces on you (to greet you) but being so big, he can knock a grown man down. After the first time he did it to me, I used the (hey, Shshs and two finger touch) on him and he is a totally different dog with me. He still is unruly to them and everyone else, but when I am there, he will only greet me calmly, will respect my space (as well as my children’s) etc.
It only goes to show you that with discipline, assertiveness and affection, a dog CAN change. They just need THAT to be consistent. Too bad this one only gets it when I visit!


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## Julie

Zury,
That is interesting and so true! I went into this job I have thinking I love all dogs---well-----that would be wrong! I had to re-think that. I care about them,but I do not truly love all dogs. The sad thing is-I think all dogs(for the most part)have the potential to be fabulous dogs,but it depends on the owner they get,you know? Certain breeds are kinda known for this,or known for that.....but none of it hold true if the owner doesn't give them rules,boundaries and limitations.


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## marjrc

180 lbs., huh? Yikes!! lol 

I have liked using some of Cesar's techniques, though not all.


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## boo2352

We use some of his techniques, too, although not all. I like how he's showing how he deals with a variety of problems other than aggression -- that seemed to be the focus early on.


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## Julie

marjrc said:


> 180 lbs., huh? Yikes!! lol
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Yes--it was all brown and short haired. It looked like a gi-normous lab kinda with a weinmariner type face(more dainty muzzle then a lab). She was kinda cool in her own way. Had brown pigment nose eyerims etc. I was absolutely scared s_it-less of this dog,as it came up to the door a barked at me,staring me down. I think she was nice really,but at 180 lbs. I wasn't willing to risk it. I got help----the weinee I was! ound:


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## Posh's Mom

Carefulove said:


> My SIL got a pit-bull about a year (and change) ago. The dog now is almost 100 lbs and a beast. She is unruly, jealous and annoying. They think is funny, I think he needs discipline.
> Anytime someone arrives at the door, this dog pounces on you (to greet you) but being so big, he can knock a grown man down. After the first time he did it to me, I used the (hey, Shshs and two finger touch) on him and he is a totally different dog with me. He still is unruly to them and everyone else, but when I am there, he will only greet me calmly, will respect my space (as well as my children's) etc.
> It only goes to show you that with discipline, assertiveness and affection, a dog CAN change. They just need THAT to be consistent. Too bad this one only gets it when I visit!


Bravo Zury. I think Cesar was a dog in a past life, seriously. Mostly I love how intuitive he is about the dogs and the owners. Amazing. I have learned from him that a dog is first a dog, then a particular breed of dog, and finally my "insert name." They do really need to have a job, be respected for the animal they are, and it is truly up to us to be the pack leader and protect them so they don't feel they need to protect us with boundaries, limitations, exercise, jobs to feel needed, and finally love. I think the same thing about my kids. I think the reason he is controversial is he doesn't train a dog, he rehabilitates the dog. There really is a difference here, and he's working with humans that obviously want to change either their dog's behavior, or the relationship they have with the dog.

My favorite episode is from the second or third season. He doesn't do any rehabilitating, he helps a family choose a puppy to add to their "pack." The boy really wanted this aggressive, but playful little **** of a cute dog and cesar helped the boy realize that wasn't a fair choice to make for their existing dog. It was a heart melting episode.


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## tuggersmom

We are Ceasar fans here too. 

I have done a lot of training with every type of trainer in the book! I have mostly trained with my German Shepherd Dogs. I have been with pure treat trainers with clickers all the way over to the German ****zhund training which involves more force. All of the methods were good in teaching the dog tricks. I put many obedience, agility and tracking titles on my dogs and they were good at their tricks. But, it just didn't carry over into the big issues in our lives. I could not get my dog to not want to attack every dog she met when we were "off duty" at home. She was great at the rings and no one would ever suspect her "darker" side. I couldn't put the last piece of the puzzle together. Now I realize that even though my dog would do tricks for fun and treats she never really saw me as a leader when she was in high drive. Also, I think how Ceaser talks about preventing the dog from going into that zone by reading their body language is very valid and can stop a lot of the aggression problems before they start.

Another great thing I take away from the show is reading dogs body language and using that to communicate with your own dog. We once had another, giant German Shepherd that was a born pack leader. I was always amazed at how polite other dogs were around him. Even he most boisterous boxer would walk calmly beside him. He would exit the house first , before the other dogs, and if we threw a ball at the park, no dog would fetch it and this dog could walk out and get it and bring it back. He rarely ever had to show aggression, he showed it all with his body language. When I try to be a pack leader with my Havanese I think of him. 

With Havanese, I think you can make a lot more mistakes. From my experience they seem to be more submissive naturally and much more happy to follow. But, we have really used Ceasers ideas of claiming the space. This has helped the jumping up on people problem as the entrance way is our space. We also claimed the garbage cans, the dirty clothes basket and the kids toy box by making him back away from these spaces. 

I think that Ceaser has filled a big missing piece out of the dog training systems. Our dogs are never going to think like us so we have to come down to their level of thinking.


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## Cosmosmom

The one thing that I think is important is that you dog realizes that you are in charge ..
I think they were times that when I was ill and I was not feeling well that I was not able to convey this message that strongly to my to my dog . 
Now I make sure that I am there mentally and ready to be the boss .


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## tuggersmom

ama0722 said:


> Yeah, it is good to remember that if all dogs were able to be trained the same way, we wouldn't have hundreds of different methods! Even my own training has to be changed for the personality of just my two dogs!
> 
> This is so true. I find that Tugger is very sensitive. If he gets in trouble he worries and sulks at my feet until I "forgive him" by giving him some tummmy rubs. I have never had a dog do that before.


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## tuggersmom

Carefulove said:


> My SIL got a pit-bull about a year (and change) ago. The dog now is almost 100 lbs and a beast. She is unruly, jealous and annoying. They think is funny, I think he needs discipline.
> Anytime someone arrives at the door, this dog pounces on you (to greet you) but being so big, he can knock a grown man down. After the first time he did it to me, I used the (hey, Shshs and two finger touch) on him and he is a totally different dog with me. He still is unruly to them and everyone else, but when I am there, he will only greet me calmly, will respect my space (as well as my children's) etc.
> It only goes to show you that with discipline, assertiveness and affection, a dog CAN change. They just need THAT to be consistent. Too bad this one only gets it when I visit!


I used that touch too once when two dogs ran after Tugger at the dog park. I could tell as they ran at us that they were in high prey mode. One ran in front and the other ran behind and growled and charged for Tuggers neck. I stood in front of the charging dog and gave him a hard hand "bite" in the ribs. (I knew that I might get bit at this point but I decided to take the risk) He was very taken back and stopped for a minute and then charged again. I repeated the hit and it broke the dog's drive enough to make time for the owner to get there and leash her dogs. The stupid owners response was that her dogs just thought that mine was a squeaky toy! Come on, dogs are not that dumb. They knew what they were doing...hunting. I could see it in them the minute they approached. Too bad the human didn't.


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## Cosmosmom

Just a clarification I have never seen the Stillwell lady use a shock collar on a dog .. She does not approve of them . 
I have respect for both cesar and the Victoria Stiwell as they are dedicating their lives to trying to save these dogs ..
On one show a daughter adopted a dog because she felt sorry for it .. Unfortunately the rest of the family was not as caring & compassionate and did not get with the program as much .. At least Victoria got the dog to a place where he was well behaved and would probablly be adopted and put in a good home . 
It is like the Nanny show I think I would be embarassed to let them video by such dysfunctional home where everyone is out of control but these people seem to embrace it ..
Unfortunately the dogs and children did not have a choice and they are stuck in a sad situation .. Cesar and Victoria come in and try and educate this people but if they do not do what they are told and instructed to do it is a no win situation . 
Every one has a different method but one thing they all stress is consistency .


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## Julie

I actually watch Victoria Stillwell's show also.
I think they both have alot to offer and it's up to us to decide what works best for our situation/dog. 

They have 2 very different approaches.Stillwell is a dog trainer. Cesar is dog phycology.

Shock collars--I think they would be dreadful on a havanese. I do however think they have their place as a tool for certain dogs. They are not all bad,IMO. I can't help but think back to Cesar's episode with a father/daughter in Nebraska who had the dog that would get in the way of tires on the combine/tractor etc. It had lost an eye already,I believe and that collar literally changed that dog in like 1 or 2 corrections. It was absolutely fascinating and the people truly loved and cared for this dog. You may remember this episode by Cesar driving a combine and being just beyond thrilled.


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## Carefulove

tuggersmom said:


> ...The stupid owners response was that her dogs just thought that mine was a squeaky toy!...


LOL You should have told her, yeah, he is a squeaky toy owned by a Rottweiller!


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## Lilysplash I

Welcome Eileeen! I had poodles my entire life (toys, standards & minitures) until three years ago when I got my first Havanese. It has been a great experience for me as well. The hourse training was more prolonged than poodles but I love the exuberant personality of the Havs.


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## Lilysplash I

I have learned to trust my own heart & my own research & understanding instead of giving way to the so called 'experts' in life. Anyone that watches Ceasar does not see inhumane treatement but then when the so called 'experts' weighs in, it creates doubt & diminishes the good that Ceasar has brought to the average person & dog.


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## marjrc

Tugger'smom that is very interesting, thanks for sharing your own experiences! It reminds me that I need to step up to the plate more.

Julie, I think I'd be a "weenie" in that situation too! :suspicious: 

Thanks for all your input, everyone. I learn every day on here.


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