# Socializing with other dogs



## Sarahdee (Apr 5, 2012)

Millie is 12 weeks old and doing really well meeting new people. Christmas time makes socializing with people really easy because we just take her with to all of our parties.
Our problem is, we don't know any dogs. She met our neighbours dog and warmed up quite quickly but we actually don't know any other small dogs.
Our trainer told us that dog parks were not a good place for socializing because it's so easy to have a bad experience because of all of the untrained dogs. We have a trainer coming to our house once a week's for puppy training so that eliminates socializing during puppy class. 
Do you have any suggestions of other places to meet dogs?
During the summer months there are so many dogs in our area that go for daily walks but it seems like they all disappeared once the winter hit.
Thanks for your help again!!!


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## DebW (Jun 11, 2013)

One easy place is the pet store chains. Do you have Petco or Petsmart in your area? That's a place to walk the aisles and meet other dogs.

Also, my local Animal Humane Society holds puppy socialization play dates on weekends. I found them very helpful, and they were moderated by a trainer who made sure that the kids played well together.


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## Sarahdee (Apr 5, 2012)

DebW said:


> One easy place is the pet store chains. Do you have Petco or Petsmart in your area? That's a place to walk the aisles and meet other dogs.
> 
> Also, my local Animal Humane Society holds puppy socialization play dates on weekends. I found them very helpful, and they were moderated by a trainer who made sure that the kids played well together.


Thanks for the ideas! I have brought her to petsmart a few times with me. Both times there were no dogs there. I'll keep trying though.
I've never heard of the humane society having play dates. I'm going to have to look into that.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

Buddhas dr. Told me that i shouldn't take him to Pet Smart or a dog store until he is older. She also said to avoid dog parks until he has had all of his shots especially the Parvovirus. She said it was okay to have him as a pup around dogs that I know.

I don't have any suggestions about socializing a young dog. Only thing I have learned so far is to make sure that he is kept medically as safe as possible.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

how come you ddn't sign up for puppy classes ?


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## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

Puppy classes are a good place to start.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Sarahdee said:


> Millie is 12 weeks old and doing really well meeting new people. Christmas time makes socializing with people really easy because we just take her with to all of our parties.
> Our problem is, we don't know any dogs. She met our neighbours dog and warmed up quite quickly but we actually don't know any other small dogs.
> Our trainer told us that dog parks were not a good place for socializing because it's so easy to have a bad experience because of all of the untrained dogs. We have a trainer coming to our house once a week's for puppy training so that eliminates socializing during puppy class.
> Do you have any suggestions of other places to meet dogs?
> ...


The best place is to start puppy kindergarten ASAP. If you're lucky, your training facility may also have puppy play times. Even if they don't perhaps you can arrange other play dates with the people in your puppy K class.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

DebW said:


> One easy place is the pet store chains. Do you have Petco or Petsmart in your area? That's a place to walk the aisles and meet other dogs.
> 
> Also, my local Animal Humane Society holds puppy socialization play dates on weekends. I found them very helpful, and they were moderated by a trainer who made sure that the kids played well together.


I would really avoid places like Petco and Petsmart until your puppy is over 6 months old and has a fully developed immune system. While socialization is VITALLY important, there is absolutely no control over the the dogs that are brought to these places, and no knowledgeable supervision. You have no idea whether the dogs your pup comes in contact with there have been properly immunized. I've also had trouble MANY times with people with so called "friendly" big dogs, who are lunging at the end of their leashes trying to get to my small dog. I have to say, even with Kodi as a full grown adult, I ALWAYS take a cart when I go into one of these pet superstores, and if I see ANY sign of unruly behavior from other dogs Kodi is up in the seat of the cart. I just don't take chances with poorly behaved dogs, and I've met too many at these places.

Trainer-moderated play sessions are a completely different story&#8230; these are a SUPER opportunity for socialization!


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## Colbie (Feb 9, 2013)

If you check into puppy classes you might want to try one that has other small puppies in the class. Colbie's class was all larger dogs and she wouldn't interact with them.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Sarahdee said:


> Thanks for the ideas! I have brought her to petsmart a few times with me. Both times there were no dogs there. I'll keep trying though.


She's WAY too young to be at big pet stores. PLEASE keep her away from there!!! (and I'm a HUGE proponent of early socialization&#8230; But I want it to be safe!!!) Even if there are no dogs there when you go in, the germs can be left behind. If you HAVE to take her in, keep her in your arms at all times, but it's even better not to take her there.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

krandall said:


> She's WAY too young to be at big pet stores. PLEASE keep her away from there!!! (and I'm a HUGE proponent of early socialization&#8230; But I want it to be safe!!!) Even if there are no dogs there when you go in, the germs can be left behind. If you HAVE to take her in, keep her in your arms at all times, but it's even better not to take her there.


yep that's not the place to be at twelve weeks and only one set of shots , .. big difference from a well run puppy class.


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## Sarahdee (Apr 5, 2012)

davetgabby said:


> how come you ddn't sign up for puppy classes ?


We have a trainer coming to our house once a week for puppy training. We thought it was better to get one on one training. Ahhh! Did I mess up now?


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## Sarahdee (Apr 5, 2012)

davetgabby said:


> yep that's not the place to be at twelve weeks and only one set of shots , .. big difference from a well run puppy class.


She just got her second set of shots last Monday.


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## Sarahdee (Apr 5, 2012)

krandall said:


> The best place is to start puppy kindergarten ASAP. If you're lucky, your training facility may also have puppy play times. Even if they don't perhaps you can arrange other play dates with the people in your puppy K class.


I was told that during puppy classes there is a rule that dogs need to stay a certain distance between eachother anyways. It seems I'm getting different advice from so many people. We have payed for an 8 weeks puppy training at our house. I'm loving it so puppy class socialization is out. Do you have any other suggestions?


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## Sarahdee (Apr 5, 2012)

krandall said:


> She's WAY too young to be at big pet stores. PLEASE keep her away from there!!! (and I'm a HUGE proponent of early socialization&#8230; But I want it to be safe!!!) Even if there are no dogs there when you go in, the germs can be left behind. If you HAVE to take her in, keep her in your arms at all times, but it's even better not to take her there.


Okay I won't do that any more. I did carry her both times. I wanted her with me because I was trying to find a harness that fit right and a coat. Thanks for the advice!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Sarahdee said:


> We have a trainer coming to our house once a week for puppy training. We thought it was better to get one on one training. Ahhh! Did I mess up now?


Puppy kindergarten is MUCH more about learning to socialize in a stuctured, supervised setting than it is about "training". Certainly, a portion of each class will address rudimentary obedience. But tthe most important par of puppy K is the socialization.

So if you want the extra training help, by all means use your private trainer too, but also do puppy K..


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

Don't worry, Sarah, you will make mistakes, that's how we learn. I made so many mistakes to learn from in the first couple of months with my puppy that now I am a veritable genius. Ha ha ha. It's great that you're doing the in home training, that's a great start. Is there a training center near you that also has group training classes and puppy playtime? The place near me that I took Benjamin, when I first got him at 9 or 10 weeks old, had puppy playtime sessions every Monday through Thursday from 5:00 until 6:00. With the really young puppies, they would only let them play for a half an hour so they didn't get too worn out. I took him twice a week until we started the first training class, then still went once a week. They actually let us come until he was 6 mos old, because he was small and good with the younger puppies. The training class did involve play and interaction, interspersed with structured training exercises. I can't tell you how valuable this experience was for me and my dog! If you could possibly find something like this in your area, even if you had to drive a little, it would be the best thing you could possibly do, IMO. Also... I remember very well those early days, before he had all his shots. I did take him to the puppy classes and play, because I knew all the puppies were getting their shots, and also the trainers were vigilant about mopping up any potty accidents immediately. Aside from that, though, I was terrified to even take him for a walk on the sidewalk. This was late June and early July, beautiful summer weather, and I remember both of us being so happy when we could finally walk all around the neighborhood, him sniffing everything and trotting along with his ears flying back. You are obviously a conscientious dog mom, and I know you'll figure it all out!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Sarahdee said:


> I was told that during puppy classes there is a rule that dogs need to stay a certain distance between eachother anyways. It seems I'm getting different advice from so many people. We have payed for an 8 weeks puppy training at our house. I'm loving it so puppy class socialization is out. Do you have any other suggestions?


A properly run puppy class will have LOTS of off-leash puppy play. If it doesn't it isn't being run properly. Of course it's POSSIBLE to properly socialize a puppy without puppy K, but it's a LOT more work. It means that, on your own, you need to find LOTS of opportunities for your puppy to socialize with other, safe, friendly dogs and puppies in a very short time period. It's important that you DO find puppies to socialize with, notjust dogs, because adult dogs let puppies get away with things that same-age peers would object to. So without puppy/puppy play, the puppy doesn't learn what is acceptable, and how to get along. ...And while an adult dog will tolerate much more puppy nonsense, as soon as that puppy hit adolescence... game over. They are in for a sudden comeuppance.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Sarahdee said:


> Okay I won't do that any more. I did carry her both times. I wanted her with me because I was trying to find a harness that fit right and a coat. Thanks for the advice!


OK, then she was probably safe enough, but then tere isn't really any possibility of socialization.


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## Sarahdee (Apr 5, 2012)

emichel said:


> Don't worry, Sarah, you will make mistakes, that's how we learn. I made so many mistakes to learn from in the first couple of months with my puppy that now I am a veritable genius. Ha ha ha. It's great that you're doing the in home training, that's a great start. Is there a training center near you that also has group training classes and puppy playtime? The place near me that I took Benjamin, when I first got him at 9 or 10 weeks old, had puppy playtime sessions every Monday through Thursday from 5:00 until 6:00. With the really young puppies, they would only let them play for a half an hour so they didn't get too worn out. I took him twice a week until we started the first training class, then still went once a week. They actually let us come until he was 6 mos old, because he was small and good with the younger puppies. The training class did involve play and interaction, interspersed with structured training exercises. I can't tell you how valuable this experience was for me and my dog! If you could possibly find something like tuhis in your area, even if you had to drive a little, it would be the best thing you could possibly do, IMO. Also... I remember very well those early days, before he had all his shots. I did take him to the puppy classes and play, because I knew all the puppies were getting their shots, and also the trainers were vigilant about mopping up any potty accidents immediately. Aside from that, though, I was terrified to even take him for a walk on the sidewalk. This was late June and early July, beautiful summer weather, and I remember both of us being so happy when we could finally walk all around the neighborhood, him sniffing everything and trotting along with his ears flying back. You are obviously a conscientious dog mom, and I know you'll figure it all out!


Thanks for the reassurance! I'm going to look into play times at training places then. My trainer has two dogs that she is going to bring to my house in a few weeks. I know I need to find some puppies. 
I read so many books and this forum contantly before I got Millie. There is just so much to think about at the beginning.


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## Sarahdee (Apr 5, 2012)

Thank you everyone! I appreciate you all more then you will ever know.


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## Sarahdee (Apr 5, 2012)

What do you all think of doggie day care for socializing?


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

Sarahdee said:


> What do you all think of doggie day care for socializing?


It depends on the daycare and it depends on your dog! I seem to have ended up with a dog that is insatiable when it comes to social needs, so I've had to work really hard to find him enough opportunities to play with other dogs. I've tried a couple of different day care places, and none have been _bad_, but some were better than others. Some people say they are bad, but I think if you carefully research them, and feel good about the people working there, they can be great. I am able to bring Benjamin to work with me, but I usually take him to day care for one or two half days a week so he can run around and socialize, and not just hang out getting fat all day. Even at a year and 8 months he is still pretty much a mama's boy, but when we get to the front door of this place he can't wait to get in, and barely looks back as I'm leaving. Then when I pick him up, he is all happy and tired out, which is great. I have heard a few bad stories about day cares, but then, we are not reading about all of the many happy stories of dogs being well cared for and loved in good day care places. Of course we want our dogs to be safe and happy, but it's possible to go overboard and be overprotective and worried about anything and everything that the dog would never have any fun. You just have to do your homework and figure out what's right for you, that's my take on it.


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## Sarahdee (Apr 5, 2012)

emichel said:


> It depends on the daycare and it depends on your dog! I seem to have ended up with a dog that is insatiable when it comes to social needs, so I've had to work really hard to find him enough opportunities to play with other dogs. I've tried a couple of different day care places, and none have been _bad_, but some were better than others. Some people say they are bad, but I think if you carefully research them, and feel good about the people working there, they can be great. I am able to bring Benjamin to work with me, but I usually take him to day care for one or two half days a week so he can run around and socialize, and not just hang out getting fat all day. Even at a year and 8 months he is still pretty much a mama's boy, but when we get to the front door of this place he can't wait to get in, and barely looks back as I'm leaving. Then when I pick him up, he is all happy and tired out, which is great. I have heard a few bad stories about day cares, but then, we are not reading about all of the many happy stories of dogs being well cared for and loved in good day care places. Of course we want our dogs to be safe and happy, but it's possible to go overboard and be overprotective and worried about anything and everything that the dog would never have any fun. You just have to do your homework and figure out what's right for you, that's my take on it.


K thanks! I found one online that looks good. I want to visit it anyways because next year we have two vacations that Millie can't go on. There are no dogs allowed. I would love her to go a bunch of times before we leave her there for a week.


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## Karen Collins (Mar 21, 2013)

Sarahdee said:


> She just got her second set of shots last Monday.


You could have titers run now. Dance only had one set of shots at 12 weeks and we titered her at 16 weeks. She was completely protected and my vet said she didn't need any more shots.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Sarahdee said:


> K thanks! I found one online that looks good. I want to visit it anyways because next year we have two vacations that Millie can't go on. There are no dogs allowed. I would love her to go a bunch of times before we leave her there for a week.


She's much too young now, but it's never too early to look around. As Emichel said, there are good ones and bad ones. The problem is there are too many that are NOT appropriate groupings for little dogs, and can cause irreparable harm to the socialization of the "wrong" dog. So be VERY careful in choosing.

Here's an example of how a day care can be well-intentioned, and PHYSICALLY safe for a dog, but not be an appropriate social setting. My son used to work at a doggy daycare nearby. They kept the dogs in 3 groups, a group of friendly but wild-play dogs, a group of quieter dogs, and a group of very small dogs. This small dog group was not well-divided by temperament/activity level, and there were a couple of little dogs who were not happy in that group. The result was that the well-meaning, dog loving teenage kids who worked there would carry these two little ones around with them all day long, or keep them with them behind the counter. Were they safe? Absolutely. Were they getting ANY social benefit from it? None at all. And that's at a BETTER day care. From worse day cares, I've heard of dogs getting seriously, physically hurt, and (more often) being emotionally traumatized to the point that they become fear-agressive toward other dogs. So, while it's possible to find a happy day care environment, (especially for dogs who are total extroverts, like Benjamin! ) be very, very careful, and really assess your specific dog's personality in relation to the other dogs in the group.

I prefer to use an in-home sitter for Kodi when I need to go away without him. I have a person who is a trainer, groomer (important with a Havanese in long coat, so they don't come home as a matted mess!!!) and has two small dogs of her own. Kodi LOVES being there, and loves the time he spends with these other dogs.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

I have been reading on line and here about the importance of socializing your dog when he is a puppy. I thought that socialization would just happen on its own if you invite other dogs over. I think that process is too slow. Buddha is already expressing fear when we are outside and he hears other dogs barking. Yesterday he started visibly shaking. I didn't understand it but I think I am getting it now. So far Buddha has only played with other dogs three times and all three times I just didn't like how it went. Two of the times I feared for Buddha because the other dogs were out of control during play and were much larger than Buddha. The other dog owners assured me that everything was just fine but I don't think they even considered Buddhas size or age. It felt like I had put Buddha in an MMA competition. He did kind of stand up for himself but I could tell that he was feeling like it was chaos.


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## Sarahdee (Apr 5, 2012)

Clara said:


> I have been reading on line and here about the importance of socializing your dog when he is a puppy. I thought that socialization would just happen on its own if you invite other dogs over. I think that process is too slow. Buddha is already expressing fear when we are outside and he hears other dogs barking. Yesterday he started visibly shaking. I didn't understand it but I think I am getting it now. So far Buddha has only played with other dogs three times and all three times I just didn't like how it went. Two of the times I feared for Buddha because the other dogs were out of control during play and were much larger than Buddha. The other dog owners assured me that everything was just fine but I don't think they even considered Buddhas size or age. It felt like I had put Buddha in an MMA competition. He did kind of stand up for himself but I could tell that he was feeling like it was chaos.


That's what I thought also. That it would come more naturally by inviting dogs over but then my trainer said that dog parks were dirty and not safe and that I should look for dogs her size. I don't know.
I just found a place close to me that is a training facility and they are offering indoor socializing in the new year. I'm going to look more into that.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

Sarahdee said:


> That's what I thought also. That it would come more naturally by inviting dogs over but then my trainer said that dog parks were dirty and not safe and that I should look for dogs her size. I don't know.
> I just found a place close to me that is a training facility and they are offering indoor socializing in the new year. I'm going to look more into that.


I think that socializing in a controlled environment with a good professional must be the best way to go. There are do's and don'ts I think a qualified person could explain the whys of those and I don't know the whys.

I think socializing your dog helps them to not be fearful of other dogs. Out of fear your dog could learn to be aggressive. I think with the dog play that Buddha was having it may have been teaching him to be aggressive in order to not get hurt.

It also may have been teaching him fear because he was getting hurt.


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

Yeah, you definitely want to avoid your dog getting hurt, either physically or emotionally! That's why it's so important in the beginning to have him interacting with other puppies, with good trainers present, if at all possible. The puppy play we went to was run by really great trainers. They would closely watch the dogs' interactions, would explain what they were noticing and allow the dogs to play and let the other dog know if they were going too hard, and really had a knack for intervening before things went too far (which rarely happened). Then they would pick up the dog that had been too aggressive and say "time out", hold him up for a few seconds, then put him down to play again. On our walks or in groups, I have gotten pretty good at scoping out situations and reading Benjamin's signals if he feels uncomfortable about another dog, and then we just leave. I would definitely not want him playing with other dogs where he was getting hurt or scared, though. This would be worse than no socializing!


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

emichel said:


> I would definitely not want him playing with other dogs where he was getting hurt or scared, though. This would be worse than no socializing!


I'm not sure if he was getting hurt during all of the play it just seemed like it was an accident waiting to happen. He did yelp once. At times it seemed like Buddha was being very aggressive he would lurch at the other dogs and bark and bite them and everyone was like "isn't that cute"? I'm like NO it isn't. Then there were times when Buddha would get the other dogs all worked up and then hide behind someone. There was no rhyme or reason for any of it as far as I could tell. Plus one of the other big dogs kept swiping his paw at Buddha.

I was feeling like it was destructive socialization.


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

Clara said:


> At times it seemed like Buddha was being very aggressive he would lurch at the other dogs and bark and bite them and everyone was like "isn't that cute"? I'm like NO it isn't. Then there were times when Buddha would get the other dogs all worked up and then hide behind someone. There was no rhyme or reason for any of it as far as I could tell. Plus one of the other big dogs kept swiping his paw at Buddha.
> 
> I was feeling like it was destructive socialization.


I think you should trust your gut! If you feel the play is upsetting you, even if it's fine but you're not comfortable with it, your reaction will probably upset your dog anyway. If you are in an environment with experienced trainers who can monitor the situation it will be much safer for everyone. The funny thing is, sometimes dogs who are evenly matched can play in a way that might seem a little rough, but you can tell the difference between fun playing and uncomfortable interactions. There is one place I've been taking my dog -- they have a small dog "yappy hour" (cute) every Sunday afternoon, and I feel that the trainer there is a bit more timid and calls things off _much_ sooner than his original trainers. Benjamin has a couple of buddies there who are about the same size, including a couple of Havanese, and they really enjoy mixing it up, wrestling like little Sumo wrestlers. I can tell that they are having a great time, but she will intervene sometimes when I don't think it's necessary. Oh well, her house her rules, but I'm just saying, it may be that the play you're observing is not bad, but if you don't feel comfortable with it, it is. Also, even if you know what you're doing, you _do_, (or someone does), have to pay close attention when dogs are playing like this, just in case the dynamics change and all of a sudden someone is not having fun. There is so much to learn, but it just takes spending a lot of time with your dog and getting to know things by experience.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Clara said:


> I have been reading on line and here about the importance of socializing your dog when he is a puppy. I thought that socialization would just happen on its own if you invite other dogs over. I think that process is too slow. Buddha is already expressing fear when we are outside and he hears other dogs barking. Yesterday he started visibly shaking. I didn't understand it but I think I am getting it now. So far Buddha has only played with other dogs three times and all three times I just didn't like how it went. Two of the times I feared for Buddha because the other dogs were out of control during play and were much larger than Buddha. The other dog owners assured me that everything was just fine but I don't think they even considered Buddhas size or age. It felt like I had put Buddha in an MMA competition. He did kind of stand up for himself but I could tell that he was feeling like it was chaos.


Opportunities for dog/dog socialization (early and often!) are very important, but you are absolutely correct that it needs to be carefully controlled and SAFE. You did the right thing to get Buddha out of a situation where he could get hurt by larger, rambunctious dogs, no matter HOW "friendly" they were.

There ARE big dogs who have an innate sense of how fragile small breed puppies are&#8230; Kodi was practically raised by a friend's adult GSD. Buddy was always EXTREMELY gentle with Kodi, even when they were running outside together. But there were many other large dogs that I just had to (and STILL have to!) keep him away from, for his own safety.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Sarahdee said:


> That's what I thought also. That it would come more naturally by inviting dogs over but then my trainer said that dog parks were dirty and not safe and that I should look for dogs her size. I don't know.
> I just found a place close to me that is a training facility and they are offering indoor socializing in the new year. I'm going to look more into that.


It's actually important that small breed puppies get to socialize with large breed dogs too. Otherwise, you can end up with one of those horrid, reactive little beasts that lunges and barks at every large dog they see. (which is actually a fear reaction&#8230; "I'm afraid of you, so GET AWAY!!!") The trick is to find large GENTLE dogs for them to learn about. There are safe individuals of almost every breed, but some that are more likely to be slow-moving, quiet and gentle are Newfies, OLDER Labs and Goldens (puppies and young adults can have WAY too much energy!!!), Great Danes, Mastiffs, Bassett Hounds... I'm sure there are other breeds that are good candidates, but those are the ones that spring immediately to mind.

A great way to (over time) expose your dog to ALL KINDS of well mannered dogs is to continue with obedience classes. The dogs that are in higher level obedience classes are GENERALLY under good control, and have also been socialized to other dogs their entire lives.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Clara said:


> I'm not sure if he was getting hurt during all of the play it just seemed like it was an accident waiting to happen. He did yelp once. At times it seemed like Buddha was being very aggressive he would lurch at the other dogs and bark and bite them and everyone was like "isn't that cute"? I'm like NO it isn't. Then there were times when Buddha would get the other dogs all worked up and then hide behind someone. There was no rhyme or reason for any of it as far as I could tell. Plus one of the other big dogs kept swiping his paw at Buddha.
> 
> I was feeling like it was destructive socialization.


It could have been&#8230; or it could have been OK, him just learning the "rules" from the other dogs, and (appropriately) yelping to warn THEM when they were going to far. That's where socializing under the supervision of a good trainer, who KNOWS how to "read" the puppies well is invaluable. New owners (me included) tend to get worried and protective when they hear their puppy yelp. But sometimes, the puppy is doing EXACTLY the right thing to warn others off. Likewise, a puppy who uses his teeth too hard with another, will get "warned off, and the puppy that got nipped won't play with him for a while. So they learn by natural consequences to control the force of those "play bites". It's a back and forth that can be hard to follow or understand for a new owner!

That said, from the situation you are describing, if there WASN'Tan experienced trainer there to interpret what's going on and say everything's OK, I would do EXACTLY what you did, and err on the side of safety!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

emichel said:


> I think you should trust your gut! If you feel the play is upsetting you, even if it's fine but you're not comfortable with it, your reaction will probably upset your dog anyway. If you are in an environment with experienced trainers who can monitor the situation it will be much safer for everyone. The funny thing is, sometimes dogs who are evenly matched can play in a way that might seem a little rough, but you can tell the difference between fun playing and uncomfortable interactions. There is one place I've been taking my dog -- they have a small dog "yappy hour" (cute) every Sunday afternoon, and I feel that the trainer there is a bit more timid and calls things off _much_ sooner than his original trainers. Benjamin has a couple of buddies there who are about the same size, including a couple of Havanese, and they really enjoy mixing it up, wrestling like little Sumo wrestlers. I can tell that they are having a great time, but she will intervene sometimes when I don't think it's necessary. Oh well, her house her rules, but I'm just saying, it may be that the play you're observing is not bad, but if you don't feel comfortable with it, it is. Also, even if you know what you're doing, you _do_, (or someone does), have to pay close attention when dogs are playing like this, just in case the dynamics change and all of a sudden someone is not having fun. There is so much to learn, but it just takes spending a lot of time with your dog and getting to know things by experience.


Ha! Should have read your post first. I think we are both saying just about the same thing!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

small dogs need to be socialized to large dogs. All puppy classes should encourage this. If they don't , look elsewhere.


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

Yes, Karen, that's what I meant, but you said it much better.  Also, re: Dave's comment about large dogs, I agree about the need for _puppy socialization_ to large dogs, but I think there is a place for small dog play as well. All of the classes and play groups we went to up until he was about 6 months old consisted of all breeds, which gave him a chance to get used to dogs much larger than himself. Benjamin is about the most confident dog I could imagine, which is great in some ways, but when he was very young it had it's own challenges. He would just happily approach every dog with an attitude of "hey, let's play", assuming that everyone would love him, but after he got his feelings hurt a few times by mean grouchy dogs he became wiser and a bit more cautious and timid. He still has his basic confidence, but I am glad that he has also developed a bit of discernment and caution as well.

Anyway... as Karen was saying, it's not so much size as energy, temperament, and sensitivity. It amazes me how some dogs can be so empathic and able to tune in to other dogs' needs. Benjamin has this quality, I think, which makes him a great embassador for little timid puppies, and I love watching them figure it out. Even so, he does seem a bit intimidated by _very_ large dogs. Once he was being watched by a couple of friends who had a Great Pyrenees, and that dog was so darn big that Benjamin mostly used him to hide under when the cat was chasing him. ound: And we have met some pretty mean Chihuahuas who sent him whimpering back to mommy. When we have the Havanese meetups or small dog play groups, though, I think it is fun for him to not have to deal with the larger sizes for once. Especially with wrasslin', it's much better if they're about the same size, that's why they have weight classes! I mean, I have figured out that in some cases it would be like me wrasslin' with someone who was 25 feet tall and weighed more than 400 pounds! I don't think so! :biggrin1:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

emichel said:


> Yes, Karen, that's what I meant, but you said it much better.  Also, re: Dave's comment about large dogs, I agree about the need for _puppy socialization_ to large dogs, but I think there is a place for small dog play as well. All of the classes and play groups we went to up until he was about 6 months old consisted of all breeds, which gave him a chance to get used to dogs much larger than himself. Benjamin is about the most confident dog I could imagine, which is great in some ways, but when he was very young it had it's own challenges. He would just happily approach every dog with an attitude of "hey, let's play", assuming that everyone would love him, but after he got his feelings hurt a few times by mean grouchy dogs he became wiser and a bit more cautious and timid. He still has his basic confidence, but I am glad that he has also developed a bit of discernment and caution as well.
> 
> Anyway... as Karen was saying, it's not so much size as energy, temperament, and sensitivity. It amazes me how some dogs can be so empathic and able to tune in to other dogs' needs. Benjamin has this quality, I think, which makes him a great embassador for little timid puppies, and I love watching them figure it out. Even so, he does seem a bit intimidated by _very_ large dogs. Once he was being watched by a couple of friends who had a Great Pyrenees, and that dog was so darn big that Benjamin mostly used him to hide under when the cat was chasing him. ound: And we have met some pretty mean Chihuahuas who sent him whimpering back to mommy. When we have the Havanese meetups or small dog play groups, though, I think it is fun for him to not have to deal with the larger sizes for once. Especially with wrasslin', it's much better if they're about the same size, that's why they have weight classes! I mean, I have figured out that in some cases it would be like me wrasslin' with someone who was 25 feet tall and weighed more than 400 pounds! I don't think so! :biggrin1:


Kodi is really good at "reading" other dogs too&#8230; I think it's partly innate personality, but it's ALSO because both you and I took early socialization really seriously, and took EVERY opportunity for them to have positive experiences with other dogs, large and small old and young.


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## Sarahdee (Apr 5, 2012)

davetgabby said:


> small dogs need to be socialized to large dogs. All puppy classes should encourage this. If they don't , look elsewhere.


My trainer didn't mean never socialize with large dogs just make sure they are well trained large dogs and that the first few dogs she meets were her size and also trained.


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## Sarahdee (Apr 5, 2012)

Dave, I actually sent you a private message about a week ago about which trainer to get and I went with the one you said. So, I thought I was doing the right thing.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

emichel said:


> I think you should trust your gut! If you feel the play is upsetting you, even if it's fine but you're not comfortable with it, your reaction will probably upset your dog anyway. If you are in an environment with experienced trainers who can monitor the situation it will be much safer for everyone. The funny thing is, sometimes dogs who are evenly matched can play in a way that might seem a little rough, but you can tell the difference between fun playing and uncomfortable interactions. There is one place I've been taking my dog -- they have a small dog "yappy hour" (cute) every Sunday afternoon, and I feel that the trainer there is a bit more timid and calls things off _much_ sooner than his original trainers. Benjamin has a couple of buddies there who are about the same size, including a couple of Havanese, and they really enjoy mixing it up, wrestling like little Sumo wrestlers. I can tell that they are having a great time, but she will intervene sometimes when I don't think it's necessary. Oh well, her house her rules, but I'm just saying, it may be that the play you're observing is not bad, but if you don't feel comfortable with it, it is. Also, even if you know what you're doing, you _do_, (or someone does), have to pay close attention when dogs are playing like this, just in case the dynamics change and all of a sudden someone is not having fun. There is so much to learn, but it just takes spending a lot of time with your dog and getting to know things by experience.


Part of the problem was that all three times that Buddha was playing with other dogs the situation wasn't geared for learning and teaching the owner. All situations were people socializing and the dogs doing anything they wanted. I really had no idea how to read a dog in a dog play situation and I felt like I and Buddha were the only ones who had something to lose.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Clara said:


> Part of the problem was that all three times that Buddha was playing with other dogs the situation wasn't geared for learning and teaching the owner. All situations were people socializing and the dogs doing anything they wanted. I really had no idea how to read a dog in a dog play situation and I felt like I and Buddha were the only ones who had something to lose.


Then you did exactly the right thing by stepping in to make sure your puppy was safe!


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

krandall said:


> Opportunities for dog/dog socialization (early and often!) are very important, but you are absolutely correct that it needs to be carefully controlled and SAFE. You did the right thing to get Buddha out of a situation where he could get hurt by larger, rambunctious dogs, no matter HOW "friendly" they were.
> 
> There ARE big dogs who have an innate sense of how fragile small breed puppies are&#8230; Kodi was practically raised by a friend's adult GSD. Buddy was always EXTREMELY gentle with Kodi, even when they were running outside together. But there were many other large dogs that I just had to (and STILL have to!) keep him away from, for his own safety.


The one dog that kept swiping at Buddha is my sons 2 year old chocolate lab. I know that dog pretty good and he does not know his own strength. He still jumps on people and even when he does simple obedience tricks like shake your hand for a treat he isn't very gentle about it. He didn't seem to understand that Buddha was smaller. At times he was pushing Buddha down with his paw and standing over Buddha and swiping down at him after he knocked him off of his feet. Sometimes Buddha was belly up and I know how strong that lab is. I think he could have ripped Buddhas skin on his belly. Other times the lab would lay down with his head down and play from what I thought was a submissive position. At one point the lab just started going crazy and was running in the house and almost bowled right over Buddha full force. I finally got tired of being a nervousness wreck. Also I was sure that Buddha had to be exhausted. So I picked him up gave him some love and put him in his crate for safe keeping!


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

Today I was talking to my sons girlfriend and I told her that Buddha is going to be going to Puppy Kindergarten she said "aww that is the cutest thing that ever happened to puppies" I got a kick out of that and I agree with her.


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

There's something even cuter than that, Clara. I thought about doing this but didn't get it together, but a couple of the people in our first puppy class did. When the dogs "graduated" they all got certificates of completion, and a couple of people got, presumably made, little graduation caps for them. Then they took pictures of the puppies with their little graduation caps and diplomas. Awww, too cute!


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

emichel said:


> There's something even cuter than that, Clara. I thought about doing this but didn't get it together, but a couple of the people in our first puppy class did. When the dogs "graduated" they all got certificates of completion, and a couple of people got, presumably made, little graduation caps for them. Then they took pictures of the puppies with their little graduation caps and diplomas. Awww, too cute!


You mean like this? It's my sons dog, Parker. lol

View attachment 72138


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

Aww, yeah, that's it! I'm just a sucker for puppy graduation pics, I never get tired of them. This is the roughneck chocolate lab you were referencing? He looks like such a sweetie -- maybe he just needs a refresher class? Thanks for sharing the adorable pic!


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

emichel said:


> Aww, yeah, that's it! I'm just a sucker for puppy graduation pics, I never get tired of them. This is the roughneck chocolate lab you were referencing? He looks like such a sweetie -- maybe he just needs a refresher class? Thanks for sharing the adorable pic!


Yes that's the lab that Buddha will play with quite often. He is a sweet dog. Him and I get along great. We just need to learn how to introduce Buddha into the mix successfully.

They said the hardest part of obedience training was getting him to stand still with that cap on for the photo.


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

Clara said:


> They said the hardest part of obedience training was getting him to stand still with that cap on for the photo.


No doubt! :biggrin1:


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## Colbie (Feb 9, 2013)

I think it is important that they get socialized to large dogs too but I think that needs to occur at a pace that they are comfortable with as well. They all have different personalities and some will be more outgoing, more willing to initiate contact then others. 
A lot of course depends on the trainer, how well they read each dog, but a lot I think depends on the dog. A problem I saw is that in a puppy K class, they are all still learning the ropes whereas when they deal with older dogs, they already know the ropes, know when to back off etc.


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## tra_po (Aug 14, 2013)

I'm in the same boat as you. I can tell Ludo is lonely. We've done classes. We've done the dog park. We basically stalk people at pet stores. My next step is taking out an ad on Craig's List (kidding... sort of). I think I'm going to have to find a brother or sister for Ludo. It's early for you to consider that but get some good solid bonding in while it's just the two of you when you don't have the chance to socialize and don't panic. It's going to be okay!


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

Colbie said:


> I think it is important that they get socialized to large dogs too but I think that needs to occur at a pace that they are comfortable with as well. They all have different personalities and some will be more outgoing, more willing to initiate contact then others.
> A lot of course depends on the trainer, how well they read each dog, but a lot I think depends on the dog. A problem I saw is that in a puppy K class, they are all still learning the ropes whereas when they deal with older dogs, they already know the ropes, know when to back off etc.


I'm not exactly sure the difference between the different classes. As far as I can tell there is the Puppy Kindergarten the obedience school and Puppy Socialization. I guess any class would be socializing but what class should a puppy take first? Buddha is my first dog ever so I really don't know that much. It's strange how the things that I want to do with Buddha are actually teaching him bad behavior. For instance I was all about the tug of war play then I read that I was teaching him aggression along with teaching him that when we played tug of war that it was possible for him to dominate me.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

tra_po said:


> I'm in the same boat as you. I can tell Ludo is lonely. We've done classes. We've done the dog park. We basically stalk people at pet stores. My next step is taking out an ad on Craig's List (kidding... sort of). I think I'm going to have to find a brother or sister for Ludo. It's early for you to consider that but get some good solid bonding in while it's just the two of you when you don't have the chance to socialize and don't panic. It's going to be okay!


Bonding is probably the most important it seems though that the more I establish that I am the pack leader the happier Buddha is. Also now I can see that when someone else is allowing Buddha to do something that I no longer let him do, like playing with and puppy biting hands, he will stop and come over to me and sit and just look at the other person.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Colbie said:


> A problem I saw is that in a puppy K class, they are all still learning the ropes whereas when they deal with older dogs, they already know the ropes, know when to back off etc.


The trouble with that is that adult dogs let small puppies get away with things they would NEVER accept from an older dog. When they become adolescents, their "puppy license" is automatically, and suddenly, revoked by the older dogs. If they haven't learned to act appropriately from time with PEERS before that, they can get a very STRONG negative reaction form the older, bigger dog.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

krandall said:


> The trouble with that is that adult dogs let small puppies get away with things they would NEVER accept from an older dog. When they become adolescents, their "puppy license" is automatically, and suddenly, revoked by the older dogs. If they haven't learned to act appropriately from time with PEERS before that, they can get a very STRONG negative reaction form the older, bigger dog.


One of the first things I read about socializing a puppy is that the older dogs teach the younger dogs by biting them back just as hard when the puppy goes too far and letting the puppy know what it feels like. I'm thinking it must be a good idea to have a mixed age class so the puppy can learn from the older dogs and also feel confident with the younger dogs.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Clara said:


> I'm not exactly sure the difference between the different classes. As far as I can tell there is the Puppy Kindergarten the obedience school and Puppy Socialization. I guess any class would be socializing but what class should a puppy take first? Buddha is my first dog ever so I really don't know that much.


Puppy Kindergarten should be PART basic obedience (though you can't really get THAT much done in 6 or 8 one hour sessions) and LOTS of puppy/puppy, OF LEASH interaction, supervised by someone who knows dog behavior, and will not allow one puppy to be bullied OR to BE a bully.

As far as you comment, "any class would be socializing"&#8230; Not so much. In anything other than puppy kindergarten or puppy continuing education, The dogs will be on leash, and should NOT interact. These classes are for people to learn how to train their dogs. Most people will not appreciate you allowing your dog to "socialize" with theirs. Most instructor will strongly discourage it too. One problem is that on-leash introductions tend to heighten leash aggression. Another is that once into adolescence, there is a much greater chance that the dogs will NOT get along. Third, one of the purposes of group classes is to teach the dogs to pay attention to their handler at all times, even with distractions&#8230; like a room full of other dogs.



Clara said:


> It's strange how the things that I want to do with Buddha are actually teaching him bad behavior. For instance I was all about the tug of war play then I read that I was teaching him aggression along with teaching him that when we played tug of war that it was possible for him to dominate me.


Tug of war, played correctly, is not only FINE, it is tremendously rewarding, and is a HUGE motivator or "reward" later in the dog's training. It is NOT true that it causes aggression, and dogs do NOT want to "dominate" people. Dogs can be raised to be respectful members of the family, or they can be raised as spoiled brats. Just like kids!  It really has nothing to do with "domination", it has to do with a mutually respectful relationship, and that has to be taught.

Playing tug is fine, as long as there are specific rules. The handler controls the game, and is the one to say when the game is over. It can SEEM loud and fierce while it is going on but, over time, you need to keep checking that if you STOP tugging, and ask the dog to "give" or "release" the toy, they will. Then give the toy right back, so they start to trust that this doesn't always mean the end of the game. When you ARE finished, YOU take the tug toy, and in a bright, cheery voice, say something like, "OK! All done for now!"

While they are learning, have some high quality food rewards right there, to "trade" for the toy. As they start to get the idea, you can make the treats come only intermittently, until they are reliable enough that the treats can be dropped out, and playing with you and the toy is enough reward, in itself.

The dog should never be allowed to take control of the toy and keep it away from the owner, or start to "resource guard" it. If there are any signs of resource guarding, it's a sign that you have to really increase the food rewards and praise for relinquishing the toy, and put the toy away until the dog is calmer.

Unfortunately, you are finding that there is a LOT of bad advise out there along with good advice. Most performance dog people purposely TEACH their dogs to tug if the dog doesn't do it naturally. (some don't!) That's what an important reward/training tool tug can be! The key is all in how you use it!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Clara said:


> Bonding is probably the most important it seems though that the more I establish that I am the pack leader the happier Buddha is. Also now I can see that when someone else is allowing Buddha to do something that I no longer let him do, like playing with and puppy biting hands, he will stop and come over to me and sit and just look at the other person.


Bonding is VERY important, but I would love it if you could come to see it in terms other than "pack leader". First this is an out dated concept even from wolves, that has been thoroughly debunked. Second, dogs are NOT wolves, and NEVER live in "packs". (which are family groups among wolves) Feral dogs sometimes congregate in loose groups, but these groups (other than females with small babies) are not family groups, and they do not remain cohesive over time.

What you are striving for is a mutually respectful relationship. And what you are seeing, in the situation you related above, is that Buddha is comfortable in the respectful relationship he has with you, and is made uncomfortable by someone who wants to play inappropriately. Good job!


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

krandall said:


> Puppy Kindergarten should be PART basic obedience (though you can't really get THAT much done in 6 or 8 one hour sessions) and LOTS of puppy/puppy, OF LEASH interaction, supervised by someone who knows dog behavior, and will not allow one puppy to be bullied OR to BE a bully.
> 
> As far as you comment, "any class would be socializing"&#8230; Not so much. In anything other than puppy kindergarten or puppy continuing education, The dogs will be on leash, and should NOT interact. These classes are for people to learn how to train their dogs. Most people will not appreciate you allowing your dog to "socialize" with theirs. Most instructor will strongly discourage it too. One problem is that on-leash introductions tend to heighten leash aggression. Another is that once into adolescence, there is a much greater chance that the dogs will NOT get along. Third, one of the purposes of group classes is to teach the dogs to pay attention to their handler at all times, even with distractions&#8230; like a room full of other dogs.


That's what I was looking for. Thanks!



> Tug of war, played correctly, is not only FINE, it is tremendously rewarding, and is a HUGE motivator or "reward" later in the dog's training. It is NOT true that it causes aggression, and dogs do NOT want to "dominate" people. Dogs can be raised to be respectful members of the family, or they can be raised as spoiled brats. Just like kids!  It really has nothing to do with "domination", it has to do with a mutually respectful relationship, and that has to be taught.
> 
> Playing tug is fine, as long as there are specific rules. The handler controls the game, and is the one to say when the game is over. It can SEEM loud and fierce while it is going on but, over time, you need to keep checking that if you STOP tugging, and ask the dog to "give" or "release" the toy, they will. Then give the toy right back, so they start to trust that this doesn't always mean the end of the game. When you ARE finished, YOU take the tug toy, and in a bright, cheery voice, say something like, "OK! All done for now!"
> 
> ...


That makes a lot of sense because I would be teaching Buddha that we can play tug of war and still respect each other. I didn't employ any of that teaching when we played tug of war. I just kind of let it end and didn't look back. Buddha doesn't really like treats. I give them to him but a lot of times he just crunches them into pieces and walks away. Also should there be only one tug of war toy?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Clara said:


> That's what I was looking for. Thanks!
> 
> That makes a lot of sense because I would be teaching Buddha that we can play tug of war and still respect each other. I didn't employ any of that teaching when we played tug of war. I just kind of let it end and didn't look back. Buddha doesn't really like treats. I give them to him but a lot of times he just crunches them into pieces and walks away. Also should there be only one tug of war toy?


You need to find better treats. It's REALLY IMPORTANT in dog training that you encourage their appreciation of food rewards, and that you find treats that are a high-value reward for them. Typically in training we use a hierarchy of treats, from low value ones that we use at home when there are few distractions and you're working on "buffing up" already learned skills. A higher value treat reserved for teaching something new or challenging, possibly also what you'd use in classes, and a TOP VALUE treat reserved ONLY for the MOST difficult environments and/or tasks.

For Kodi, it looks like this.

1. Any old store-bought treat, or even a handful of kibble for light training at home. 
2. Small cubes of cheese or any roast meat we've had recently for training new behaviors and in class.
3. Cubed frozen turkey meat balls. These are reserved for trials, because he will turn himself inside out for them! 

Every dog will, over time, start to show which are his preferred treats. Try all kinds of different things, and see if you can create a hierarchy of 3 treats of varying values. Some things may surprise you, and some don't make great training treats for one reason or another. (Kodi's FAVORITE treat is blueberries, but I value my clothes too much to fill my pocket with ripe blueberries!!! ) The best training treats are very small, and soft, so that the dogs can swallow them quickly, without the need for a lot of chewing and crunching. (which takes their mind off the task at hand) They should also be a size and texture that makes it easy to deliver them quickly and accurately.

His favorites may very well change over time, so don't be surprised by that, either. Even dogs who are fairly indifferent to food in the beginning usually start to value food rewards more, as they learn about "the training game", and the game, itself, becomes more intrinsically valuable to them. Then the reward, whether it is food, a toy, personal play (between you and him without a toy) or praise, starts to carry more and more value for the dog too!


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

krandall said:


> You need to find better treats. It's REALLY IMPORTANT in dog training that you encourage their appreciation of food rewards, and that you find treats that are a high-value reward for them. Typically in training we use a hierarchy of treats, from low value ones that we use at home when there are few distractions and you're working on "buffing up" already learned skills. A higher value treat reserved for teaching something new or challenging, possibly also what you'd use in classes, and a TOP VALUE treat reserved ONLY for the MOST difficult environments and/or tasks.
> 
> For Kodi, it looks like this.
> 
> ...


I would have never thought of a hierarchy of treats. I have tried several. Buddha doesn't seem to care for peanut butter I bought these little dog bone shaped peanut butter flavor treats when he first came home. He didn't like them although he kind of liked the bacon flavor ones. That's what we use now. He rejected the Zukes Mini Naturals that are a moist soft small round treat in peanut butter flavor I thought that they seemed rubbery. He rejected the "Calming Aid" soft chews those felt moist on the outside but were crumbly and dry on the inside. He really loved these ones that were square shaped small and pretty moist in bacon flavor but I think that they must have been too rich or something as he would only eat them about every other day. We don't plan on giving him any people food so I guess some of the other things you mentioned might be out. That's awesome that Kodi likes blueberries... you must have stumbled onto that? I do get the concept of having different levels of treats that's pretty smart.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

And the idea of that when they're learning something and you want their total attention to use a quick soft treat is smart too.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

The puppy class I went to with my Cotons closed down this summer, sadly; there were no other good ones locally so I took Cuba once a week on a two hour drive to a trainer who is probably the best in this country and to whom I took both my previous dogs for workshops. We didn't go to puppy class; Kay Laurence, who runs these classes, let me join the grown-ups class of five other, large dogs. They were all known to her, known to be friendly and good mannered, and it was the best experience for Cuba. She was fearful of other dogs before going there, but with Kay's guidance and with experienced other owners, she befriended, on her first visit, and in incredibly little time, a Leonberger the size of a grizzly bear. She adores this dog, and the others there. I do now take her to a nearer class in the city where I live (Oxford) so that I can get there more regularly, and will go to Kay's again in the New Year. It is hard finding dogs to socialise with, I really sympathise. I am conscious that Cuba doesn't have fun playing in parks off lead yet, but the dogs we are likely to meet there would, I am certain, set us back - I don't want her being mugged by unruly, untrained, over-excited in-your-face strange dogs, so I'm being perhaps over-cautious and sticking to very controlled situations. I'd prefer it if she saw more dogs more often, but we can only all do our best, can't we.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

krandall said:


> Bonding is VERY important, but I would love it if you could come to see it in terms other than "pack leader". First this is an out dated concept even from wolves, that has been thoroughly debunked. Second, dogs are NOT wolves, and NEVER live in "packs". (which are family groups among wolves) Feral dogs sometimes congregate in loose groups, but these groups (other than females with small babies) are not family groups, and they do not remain cohesive over time.


I was wondering about this today I do kind of get a little turned off or bugged when people talk about dogs being wolves. They do that at the dog food store Red Mill Pet Supplies. Also I wonder if that "pack leader" worry or training would apply more to a breed of dog that is more dominate or hard to handle. The Havanese seem to already want to please and are a companion dog. The one thing I don't want to do with Buddha is turn everything into a battle. Maybe just take it easy and "if it ain't broke don't fix it" .


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Clara said:


> I would have never thought of a hierarchy of treats. I have tried several. Buddha doesn't seem to care for peanut butter I bought these little dog bone shaped peanut butter flavor treats when he first came home. He didn't like them although he kind of liked the bacon flavor ones. That's what we use now. He rejected the Zukes Mini Naturals that are a moist soft small round treat in peanut butter flavor I thought that they seemed rubbery. He rejected the "Calming Aid" soft chews those felt moist on the outside but were crumbly and dry on the inside. He really loved these ones that were square shaped small and pretty moist in bacon flavor but I think that they must have been too rich or something as he would only eat them about every other day. We don't plan on giving him any people food so I guess some of the other things you mentioned might be out. That's awesome that Kodi likes blueberries... you must have stumbled onto that? I do get the concept of having different levels of treats that's pretty smart.


Why don't you want to give him people food? In general, it is MUCH higher quality food than store-bought "treats" and they like it lots better too. If YOU didn't like the look and feel of all those treats, why should he? 

Kodi has always loved fruit. We have to put ex-pens around our blueberry bushes, or he goes and picks all the fruit off by himself!  Here's a funny picture of Kodi eating wild blueberries right off the bushes in Maine!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Clara said:


> I was wondering about this today I do kind of get a little turned off or bugged when people talk about dogs being wolves. They do that at the dog food store Red Mill Pet Supplies. Also I wonder if that "pack leader" worry or training would apply more to a breed of dog that is more dominate or hard to handle. The Havanese seem to already want to please and are a companion dog. The one thing I don't want to do with Buddha is turn everything into a battle. Maybe just take it easy and "if it ain't broke don't fix it" .


It's actually WORSE with a more difficult breed. It's this nonsense of trying to "dominate them before they dominate us) that leads to all kinds of dangerous behavior. If you treat a dog respectfully at all times, and expect THEM to act respectfully toward YOU at all times, You are on your way to developing a deep, meaningful relationship. In IN that relationship, the dog will WANT to please you.

Some of the best trainers I know work with intense, high-drive breeds like Rotties and Malinois. Believe me, they do NOT try to "dominate" those dogs.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

krandall said:


> Why don't you want to give him people food? In general, it is MUCH higher quality food than store-bought "treats" and they like it lots better too. If YOU didn't like the look and feel of all those treats, why should he?
> 
> Kodi has always loved fruit. We have to put ex-pens around our blueberry bushes, or he goes and picks all the fruit off by himself!  Here's a funny picture of Kodi eating wild blueberries right off the bushes in Maine!


What a nice photo of Kodi on the trail. Must have been his lucky day!

I guess I don't want to give Buddha people food because almost everyone says it bad for them. I can kind of see using people food as a treat source but not their main source. Buddha is getting more and more interested in what we are eating but he has not tasted people food.


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

Clara said:


> I guess I don't want to give Buddha people food because almost everyone says it bad for them. I can kind of see using people food as a treat source but not their main source. Buddha is getting more and more interested in what we are eating but he has not tasted people food.


Well, some of the food that some people eat is not good for dogs, but it's not good for people, either! It depends what you eat, of course. Processed artificial empty calorie food is not good for anyone, but plain meat, fish, fruits and veggies, lots of things are very healthful for dogs. I think the important thing about "people food" is the behavioral aspect. You don't want the dog to become a pest by feeding from your plate and have him or her start begging undar the table, that would be annoying. As long as the food is put into the dog's bowl, or fed as normally fed, and calories are accounted for, fresh foods are actually the best thing for them.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

emichel said:


> Well, some of the food that some people eat is not good for dogs, but it's not good for people, either! It depends what you eat, of course. Processed artificial empty calorie food is not good for anyone, but plain meat, fish, fruits and veggies, lots of things are very healthful for dogs. I think the important thing about "people food" is the behavioral aspect. You don't want the dog to become a pest by feeding from your plate and have him or her start begging undar the table, that would be annoying. As long as the food is put into the dog's bowl, or fed as normally fed, and calories are accounted for, fresh foods are actually the best thing for them.


I might look into giving him people food at a later date. We just have so many things to learn right now that I really want to leave his food habits right where they are and I think I will ask Buddhas Dr.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Clara said:


> What a nice photo of Kodi on the trail. Must have been his lucky day!
> 
> I guess I don't want to give Buddha people food because almost everyone says it bad for them. I can kind of see using people food as a treat source but not their main source. Buddha is getting more and more interested in what we are eating but he has not tasted people food.


Who is "everybody"? Actually, good quality whole, fresh foods are the absolutely BEST source of nutrition for a dog. Animals didn't evolve to eat little brown chunks of dried "meat meal". We feed that because its the most convenient, not because it's the "best".

Now, I'm not talking about hot dogs, or lasagna, or cherry pie. But a piece of broiled chicken breast, without salt? Green beans just blanched,no butter or seasoning? Fresh fruit? A nice piece of fish? Eggs? Plain yogurt? These are all TOP quality food sources for a dog. Even if you choose to use kibble as the basis of your dog's diet for the sake of convenience, you can GREATLY improve your dog's overall nutrition by adding fresh, whole foods, especialy good, lean sources of protien, since commercial dog foods are mostly too low in protein.


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

That makes a lot of sense, Clara. I agree, there is so much to think about at first that it can be overwhelming, and if something seems to be working for the time being, leave it alone! I was pretty stressed during Benjamin's first few months, being so overwhelmed with all of the choices and decisions I had to make, and worried that I was ruining my dog due to my inexperience. I now know that I loved him very much and worked really hard to do right by him, and now everything is working out great for us. Don't get me wrong, I am quite imperfect as a doggy mom, and what I still don't know would fill a whole set of encyclopedias -- do they still have those? But I am OK with that and am mostly relaxed and enjoying him and continue to think and grow and learn from experience, and I know he knows that I love him. I think you are doing a great job with your dog, FWIW!


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## Sarahdee (Apr 5, 2012)

emichel said:


> That makes a lot of sense, Clara. I agree, there is so much to think about at first that it can be overwhelming, and if something seems to be working for the time being, leave it alone! I was pretty stressed during Benjamin's first few months, being so overwhelmed with all of the choices and decisions I had to make, and worried that I was ruining my dog due to my inexperience. I now know that I loved him very much and worked really hard to do right by him, and now everything is working out great for us. Don't get me wrong, I am quite imperfect as a doggy mom, and what I still don't know would fill a whole set of encyclopedias -- do they still have those? But I am OK with that and am mostly relaxed and enjoying him and continue to think and grow and learn from experience, and I know he knows that I love him. I think you are doing a great job with your dog, FWIW!


Thanks you for sharing this. I needed to hear it today. I know it wasn't directed at me but it's nice to know that we all struggle at first and that it will get easier. Don't get me wrong, I'm loving having a puppy but there is just so much to learn.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

emichel said:


> Well, some of the food that some people eat is not good for dogs, but it's not good for people, either! It depends what you eat, of course. Processed artificial empty calorie food is not good for anyone, but plain meat, fish, fruits and veggies, lots of things are very healthful for dogs. I think the important thing about "people food" is the behavioral aspect. You don't want the dog to become a pest by feeding from your plate and have him or her start begging undar the table, that would be annoying. As long as the food is put into the dog's bowl, or fed as normally fed, and calories are accounted for, fresh foods are actually the best thing for them.


Oh, this is absolutely true!!! Many foods that are good for people are also good for dogs. But if you don't want a dog who begs at the table, NEVER feed him from the table.  It has nothing to do with WHAT you feed them but where and when you feed them if you want them to have good table mnners.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Clara said:


> I might look into giving him people food at a later date. We just have so many things to learn right now that I really want to leave his food habits right where they are and I think I will ask Buddhas Dr.


Please remember that almost everything most vets THINK they know about nutrition, thhey learn from dog food manufacturer's reps. They get almost NO training in nutrition while they are in school. Sad, but true. They also make money by selling dog food.

I'm not saying that most vets aren't well intentioned, but they aren't necessarily well informed about the best nutrition. (unless you are really, REALLY lucky... I happen to have a wonderful, holistic vet who fully supports my decisions as far as feeding Kodi are concerned)

As long as you choose a top quality kibble, it certainly isn't going to hurt Buddha in the short run... many dogs do "fine" oon it for their entire lives. But if you are looking for optimal nutrition, you won't find it in a bag of kibble. And feedding him some well thought out supplemental foods, particularly wholesome protein sources, will only iimprove his diet.

With the exception of training treats made completely of freeze dried meats or vegetables, most commercial "treats" are REAL "junk". So using good quality, whole foods as training treats is an all-round win. It's cheaper, AND a healty addition to your dog's diet.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Sarahdee said:


> Thanks you for sharing this. I needed to hear it today. I know it wasn't directed at me but it's nice to know that we all struggle at first and that it will get easier. Don't get me wrong, I'm loving having a puppy but there is just so much to learn.


What emichel wrote is SO true! It IS overwhelming when you first get your pup, and you want so much to do everyting right. And people here all want to help, but sometimes there's just a lot to take in all at once!

The good thing is that just lie kids, puppies are pretty resilient. you can make a lot of mistakes, and they still turn out fine! MMost of us try to do the best we can with the knowledge we have at the time. All we can do is KEEP learning, and change things when we learn better!


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

I can't believe I've been Emmie's mom for more than 18 months - it seems like yesterday that I brought her home and was trying to figure it all out. I've learned so much thanks to the amazing people on this forum and I'm still learning new dog owner/handler skills everyday. If I had to go back I'd do many things differently, but all in all Emmie's doing well so I need to cut myself some slack when I think I'm not measuring up. 

Make sure you enjoy the first few months with your puppy and don't forget to take lots of photos & videos as the time will fly by and it'll be hard to remember how tiny and precious they were at first.

Clara & Sarahdee - You're already doing right by your puppies by asking lots of questions and trying to learn as much as possible. Pat yourself on the back and feel good about all you've done so far and embrace all of the new ideas that you'll be exposed to going forward. 

All the best,
Jeanne


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

Sarahdee said:


> Thanks you for sharing this. I needed to hear it today. I know it wasn't directed at me but it's nice to know that we all struggle at first and that it will get easier. Don't get me wrong, I'm loving having a puppy but there is just so much to learn.


I mean it for you, too, Sarahdee! It might not feel like it right now, but you are doing a great job just because you are conscientious and want to do right by your dog. Sadly, there are a lot of people who do not, although I doubt that any of them would bother to read a forum like this. My main regret from my dog's early days is that I was too anxious and worried about trying to figure it all out and do everything right, which impacted my ability to fully enjoy his early puppyhood. Don't get me wrong, it was a joy just to be with him, but I wish I could do it all over again, knowing what I know now. Hmmm, I guess I'll just have to get another puppy some day. My dream.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

emichel said:


> I mean it for you, too, Sarahdee! It might not feel like it right now, but you are doing a great job just because you are conscientious and want to do right by your dog. Sadly, there are a lot of people who do not, although I doubt that any of them would bother to read a forum like this. My main regret from my dog's early days is that I was too anxious and worried about trying to figure it all out and do everything right, which impacted my ability to fully enjoy his early puppyhood. Don't get me wrong, it was a joy just to be with him, but I wish I could do it all over again, knowing what I know now. Hmmm, I guess I'll just have to get another puppy some day. My dream.


Having a puppy for the first time is much like when you have your first child. The first child is like an experiment and worry over all of the details. The second child most always has more freedom and probably fun. With my first child I remember my mom coming over and she saw a chart on the refrigerator and she asked me what it was and I told her it was a feeding chart. I have to feed him every two hours. I use an alarm clock during the night. She was like "so you wake him up to feed him" ? " why would you do that"? I got much more sleep after that talk with my mom.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

Today I am going to research on line the Puppy kindergarten in our area. I don't really know what to ask. What can I expect at the class?

I am assuming that the class will be a set number of puppies but will the class be a closed class in that they won't keep adding puppies once the class starts even if it isn't full? I don't know if that matters.

Should there be an orientation? What obedience will we learn?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

MarinaGirl said:


> I can't believe I've been Emmie's mom for more than 18 months - it seems like yesterday that I brought her home and was trying to figure it all out. I've learned so much thanks to the amazing people on this forum and I'm still learning new dog owner/handler skills everyday. If I had to go back I'd do many things differently, but all in all Emmie's doing well so I need to cut myself some slack when I think I'm not measuring up.


I'm the same way&#8230; Not so much in that I'd like a "re-do" with Kodi&#8230; He has been phenomenally forgiving of my newbie mistakes. But Things I will definitely do differently from the start with the next puppy!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Clara said:


> Today I am going to research on line the Puppy kindergarten in our area. I don't really know what to ask. What can I expect at the class?
> 
> I am assuming that the class will be a set number of puppies but will the class be a closed class in that they won't keep adding puppies once the class starts even if it isn't full? I don't know if that matters.
> 
> Should there be an orientation? What obedience will we learn?


The class should have a maximum number of puppies. (this can vary, based on the size of the space and the number of trainers who help with the class) Unlike a lot of "continuing education" classes, that sort of work on where the dog is at that point in time, any GOOD puppy K will have a set curriculum, of what will be covered each week. So once the class is established, they don't typically add people, and if you miss a week, you can miss a lot of information. My training center, however, gives out an information packet at each class, and if you HAVE to miss a puppy K class, you can at least get this packet, so you don't miss out completely.

Our training center also have a "drop in" puppy class on Sat. mornings, where you can either catch up a bit if you missed a session of your regular class, or just have another opportunity for socialization. The Sat. classes are for anyone who has a puppy of the right age. (they have two groups&#8230; one for very young puppies, and another for older puppies) So you run into different people at these drop-in classes.

At least half the session should be supervised, off-leash play. If it's not, it's not a real puppy K, and will not help with that all-important socialization. The other half will start with the rudiments of getting attention, sit, down, loose leash walking. They will probably also cover how to clip nails, and regular handling of all parts of the puppy so that they are calm about the vet or groomer. They will probably teach you how to use a clicker, though most don't REQUIRE that you use one. (it's a VERY useful tool, though, so well worth learning!)

The balance of the session will probably be a chance for people to ask questions about what's going on with the puppy at home, and advice on how to handle various things. This can be really helpful, not only in the obvious sense, but also because you very quickly learn that you are "all in this together", and EVERYBODY has "puppy stuff" going on at home!


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

I can only hope that the class that we take has as much to offer as yours does, Karen. Thanks for taking the time to answer questions. 

I honestly did not recognize that on leash and off leash can change the game. For me a first time dog owner I think I use the leash to control Buddha more than I use obedience but on a walk Buddha gets to go first. 

So funny that a friend of mine stopped by just a bit ago. I was like "what do I do with this puppy"? So I picked him up and greeted her. First Buddha was shaking and so I gave him to her and petted him and said "it's ok" she loved on him for a minute and he stopped shaking so I took him and put him down then he started barking, then I said "let me get his leash" so we did that. He continued to bark at her when I put him down. So I asked her to ask him to sit and he did. So I asked her to tell him good boy. Wow! I have no clue. He seemed to be so overstimulated like sensory overload. I put him inside in his crate. Told him good boy and finished visiting with my friend.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

In between all of that exchange I did tell Buddha to sit and he did but I felt I just needed him to respect her because he was so focused on her. I don't know. It was fun though.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Clara said:


> In between all of that exchange I did tell Buddha to sit and he did but I felt I just needed him to respect her because he was so focused on her. I don't know. It was fun though.


Yup. Definitely sounds like you need dome help figuring out how to handle things with your little guy!


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## Colbie (Feb 9, 2013)

It might help if you visited the library and took out a few good books on puppies. Ian Dunbar is one author I enjoyed but there are many good ones.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

"So funny that a friend of mine stopped by just a bit ago. I was like "what do I do with this puppy"? So I picked him up and greeted her. First Buddha was shaking and so I gave him to her and petted him and said "it's ok" she loved on him for a minute and he stopped shaking so I took him and put him down then he started barking, then I said "let me get his leash" so we did that. He continued to bark at her when I put him down. So I asked her to ask him to sit and he did. So I asked her to tell him good boy. Wow! I have no clue. He seemed to be so overstimulated like sensory overload. I put him inside in his crate. Told him good boy and finished visiting with my friend." 

yeah Clara you made a couple of mistakes with your friend. Never pick up your dog to greet someone. This gives them no control and no escape if they are tense and do not want to interact. Telling him good boy is meaningless to him, as he probably hasn't learned what it means. Try not to associate being put in the crate with the arrival of company as this can make visitors seem like punishment. Hey it's all a learning process, your heart is in the right place.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Right on Ron .... What makes a good puppy class ? http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/what-makes-good-puppy-class-dr-ian-dunbar


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> yeah Clara you made a couple of mistakes with your friend. Never pick up your dog to greet someone. This gives them no control and no escape if they are tense and do not want to interact. Telling him good boy is meaningless to him, as he probably hasn't learned what it means. Try not to associate being put in the crate with the arrival of company as this can make visitors seem like punishment. Hey it's all a learning process, your heart is in the right place.


I think Buddha does knows what "good boy" means as he hears it often when he goes potty and when he sits on command. He always gets a good boy and a belly rub each time he goes potty. I knew it was wrong to pick him up and give him to her after I did it. It just felt wrong. Putting him in his crate was because we were outside and I felt he wouldn't associate it with company so much and it was time for him to go in. We had been in the yard for a while when my friend came.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

krandall said:


> Yup. Definitely sounds like you need dome help figuring out how to handle things with your little guy!


Yup the thing is that Buddha had started peeing at the feet of my sons girlfriend every time she came over. I had read that when that happens its helpful if the person tells him to sit and gives him a good boy and a pat. I had read that submissive peeing can be fixed if you give him a different submission command. We asked my sons girlfriend to start doing the sit command as a greeting to him and it worked. He no longer pees at her feet when she comes over. So that is why I did some of the things I did.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Clara said:


> Yup the thing is that Buddha had started peeing at the feet of my sons girlfriend every time she came over. I had read that when that happens its helpful if the person tells him to sit and gives him a good boy and a pat. I had read that submissive peeing can be fixed if you give him a different submission command. We asked my sons girlfriend to start doing the sit command as a greeting to him and it worked. He no longer pees at her feet when she comes over. So that is why I did some of the things I did.


My guess is this was more excitement peeing than anything aabout submission. Having him sit is a good idea, not because it makes him "submissive" in any way, but because, by giving him a specific taask to do, you keep the excitement level from ramping up, so there's no peeing.


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

krandall said:


> My guess is this was more excitement peeing than anything aabout submission. Having him sit is a good idea, not because it makes him "submissive" in any way, but because, by giving him a specific taask to do, you keep the excitement level from ramping up, so there's no peeing.


That makes sense. Yes this all brand new!


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

Karen and Dave are way more expert than I am, but I just have to say, Clara, that I love how you think about what you're doing, and why. Keep on asking questions, and keep up the good work! :thumb:


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## Clara (Dec 14, 2013)

emichel said:


> Karen and Dave are way more expert than I am, but I just have to say, Clara, that I love how you think about what you're doing, and why. Keep on asking questions, and keep up the good work! :thumb:


Thanks. It sure is fun looking at the world through a dogs perspective. I guess that's what I'm doing.


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