# Belton/Non-curly Coat Progression



## krandall

Hey folks, in another thread, I promised that I'd dig up photos of Kodi's coat progression so that people could see what happens with the Belton gene. (though some Beltons show much more ticking than Kodi does)

I also find it interesting, looking back, how very different Kodi's coat was as a puppy from many of the curly-coated puppies we see here. While the curly coated pups are absolutely adorable, they also, generally mean that you'll be working harder through blowing coat. So if easy of coat matters to you, and you are looking for a puppy, look for one with a non-curly coat. 

I was actually surprised to see, as I went through the pix that Kodi's coat was straighter even than his two siblings in the photos. (though that is NOT why I picked him!)

This will probably take a couple of posts:

The first photo here is 7/15/2009, when I went to pick Kodi up. This is all 3 puppies (the two Irish Pied had already left) Kodi is in the middle. I believe they were 11 weeks more or less.

The other photos, in order, Kodi on 7/15, 8/9, 10/8/09 and 1/8/10. Even in the last photo, a 6 months, you can't see any Belton marks at all.


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## krandall

OK, the dates on this group are: 4/29/10 (his first birthday photo!), 5/22/10, 8/15/10 (the black stripe on his side is the small black spot seen in his baby photo on the Starborn page... this isn't a Belton mark but you can see some lighter striping behind it that is), 1/27/11 and 6/8/11(here, again, you can see some faint Belton stripes in the hair on his back if you look closely).


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## krandall

This first photo is Kodi coming down the ramp during our (still ongoing) house remodel 8/12/11. It shows the Belton marks REALLY well! (again, the biggest "stripe" mid-back is that black spot he started with), Next is 9/24/11, and finally, tonight, 12/2/11.


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## Pattie

Karen,

Great Thread! Thanks for sharing the photos of the handsome Kodi from puppy to grownup.


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## krandall

Thanks, Pattie! It was a fun walk down "Memory Lane".


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## Luciledodd

Karen when you bathe him, is he mostly dark grey? Rosie is and it is so strange. Then I blow her dry and the ticking mostly disappears.


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## morriscsps

He is so cute!


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## krandall

Luciledodd said:


> Karen when you bathe him, is he mostly dark grey? Rosie is and it is so strange. Then I blow her dry and the ticking mostly disappears.


No, but his stripes are MUCH more obvious. I'll try to remember to take a picture the next time I give him a bath. I think it would be fun if you and other forum members who have Beltons could post photos in this thread so other people can see them. Especially it would be neat if you could post the pictures of Rosie in a puppy cut and grown out again. That's the most amazing transition I've seen!

It would be fun if people with other "changable" coat colors wouls start threads for those too, so that people with puppies can see the interesting possibilities!


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## Pattie

Great idea. RICO, my silver sable, has had many changes, especially to red.


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## heatherk

Very interesting Karen! I had to look up the Belton gene as I had never heard that term before. And that got me to wondering about Ceylon. I will post a new post about my questions re. his hair color so that I don't hijack your thread, but thanks for posting these pictures! I love to see how all of the different havs change...


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## Luciledodd

Karen is his skin spotted? I can say for sure, but everywhere Rosie has a spot the ticking shows up. I will post the pics of Rosie this afternoon.


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## Carefulove

I love dogs with Black, especially the heads and Belton is one of my favorite markings. I have always loved Kodi's coat because of that!


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## misstray

Brody has a lot of black in his white, especially on his paws. When he gets wet his feet look like he's walked through ashes. He also has a spot or two of white in his black sections, but those never really show up well in pictures. I'm at work right now and don't have a ton of pictures on this computer (and my internet is out at home)...so these aren't the best at showing it (especially in longer coat because I hardly have any longer coat pictures on here).

His underbelly coat is much whiter than the rest of his coat (but it has black in there too)

Anyhow, here are 2 from his puppy cut he got in October and the other picture is from June.

Brody has freckles on his underbelly. I really can't tell if he has freckles on the rest of his skin or not because he has too much hair to really see. In a puppy cut his white is really dingy and grey looking and people think he's older. I'd never tell him this, but I'm not a huge fan of the ticking!


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## krandall

Luciledodd said:


> Karen is his skin spotted? I can say for sure, but everywhere Rosie has a spot the ticking shows up. I will post the pics of Rosie this afternoon.


I can't tell for sure, because the strands of ticking are so small, and without shaving the hair off (which I don't think I'm willing to do for the sake of experimentation) I can't really tell if the skin at the base is black or not. I suspect it would be, though. He has no spotting on his belly at all, though.


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## krandall

misstray said:


> Brody has a lot of black in his white, especially on his paws. When he gets wet his feet look like he's walked through ashes. He also has a spot or two of white in his black sections, but those never really show up well in pictures. I'm at work right now and don't have a ton of pictures on this computer (and my internet is out at home)...so these aren't the best at showing it (especially in longer coat because I hardly have any longer coat pictures on here).
> 
> His underbelly coat is much whiter than the rest of his coat (but it has black in there too)
> 
> Anyhow, here are 2 from his puppy cut he got in October and the other picture is from June.
> 
> Brody has freckles on his underbelly. I really can't tell if he has freckles on the rest of his skin or not because he has too much hair to really see. In a puppy cut his white is really dingy and grey looking and people think he's older. I'd never tell him this, but I'm not a huge fan of the ticking!


I think it's great to show people how different amounts of ticking show with dogs in puppy cuts as well as in long coats! Brody looks like he has a lot more ticking than Kodi, but not as much as some of the dogs I've seen.


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## Tom King

When Pam clipped Razzle (Kodi's Mom) down short, she looked like a Havanese/Dalmation because she had so many spots. She only had a few when she was born, much like Patties puppies now.

We had a computer virus a while back that changed all our file names to numbers. I've replaced the hard drive with a 2 TB one, but haven't gotten all the pictures sorted out yet, so I haven't found the ones of Razzle. She's back in long coat now.


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## krandall

Does she look white again now, Tom? Or does more of the black show in her coat? I have her soaped pictures that Pam gave me, and it seems that she is very much like Lucile talked about with her rosie... she looks mostly charcoal grey when she's wet, but then in her dry pictures, and the way I remember her, she was like Kodi... a mostly white dog with a black head. I do think she has more ticking than Kodi got though. He has only one tiny stripe of hair on one leg, otherwise his only ticking is what you see on the top of his back.


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## Luciledodd

I guess that Rosie's hair is thinner than Kodi's. When she is wet the spotted skin is very obvious. The first time I gave her a bath, it was as if the white hair dissolved and there was this little spotted puppy (Tom blue tick hound puppy comes to my mind). The first two pictures are when she was clipped in a pretty long puppy cut. Like Brody, she looked like she had been through an ash pile. In fact one of my employees said that the first time he saw her. The third picture is a closeup of the wet dog. The last one is the dry dog, I couldn't resist as she is on a tile floor like Kodi. I measured the tile, 7" square, 10" on the diagonal. Karen, bet your tiles are a lot bigger. Rosie is a little thing.


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## krandall

Luciledodd said:


> I guess that Rosie's hair is thinner than Kodi's. When she is wet the spotted skin is very obvious. The first time I gave her a bath, it was as if the white hair dissolved and there was this little spotted puppy (Tom blue tick hound puppy comes to my mind). The first two pictures are when she was clipped in a pretty long puppy cut. Like Brody, she looked like she had been through an ash pile. In fact one of my employees said that the first time he saw her. The third picture is a closeup of the wet dog. The last one is the dry dog, I couldn't resist as she is on a tile floor like Kodi. I measured the tile, 7" square, 10" on the diagonal. Karen, bet your tiles are a lot bigger. Rosie is a little thing.


I'll have to take a photo of Kodi when he gets his next bath. The black DOES show a lot more when the hair is wet, but I haven't noticed his skin. I'll see if I can part it when it's wet and see it better. He does have a lot of hair when he's dry, but I think he's a pretty typical Havanese-drowned-rat when he's wet!:biggrin1: I can't believe how white Rosie looks with her hair long, when she looks so ashy with it short!

Yeah, I think he's a lot bigger. didn't you say she's around 8 lbs? He's double her size then!:biggrin1: And yes, the squares on our floor are bigger... 12" sq, 16.5 and a bit on the diagonal. (and shhh... don't tell anyone, but it's vinyl, not tile. I like it though... things that get dropped don't shatter the way they do on tile!)


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## Tom King

Here's Razzle 8 week pic. She already had some spots on her feet.


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## Tom King

Here's an old picture that someone sent us of a Belton pup before we had Razzle. Pam used to use it in her Powerpoint for Judges Education Seminars.

I have no idea who the dog is, or who its owner is.

Just another variation.


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## Tom King

Sorry, off topic, but in looking through old pictures looking for Razzle shots, I stumbled on this. It's in my avatar, but maybe in this larger version you can also see 2 dogs on the sofa, and a litter of pups in an expen on the floor-that was the litter Posh and Belle are in. Meg is panting because she's like a cat, and likes to lay close to the heater, but when she gets too hot, she comes and jumps in my lap.


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## Tom King

Razzle, full coat version. She still looks like this. This was blown up from her New Champion photo.

It sure is nice that the new Forums software automatically downsizes photos for you now. You used to have to do it yourself before you could download one.


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## Luciledodd

That is one pretty dog.


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## krandall

Tom King said:


> Here's Razzle 8 week pic. She already had some spots on her feet.


She looked a lot like Kodi even then! She could have been part of his litter!:biggrin1:


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## krandall

Tom King said:


> Here's an old picture that someone sent us of a Belton pup before we had Razzle. Pam used to use it in her Powerpoint for Judges Education Seminars.
> 
> I have no idea who the dog is, or who its owner is.
> 
> Just another variation.


Wow! This one looks like it has very little black EXCEPT for the Belton marks!


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## krandall

Tom King said:


> Sorry, off topic, but in looking through old pictures looking for Razzle shots, I stumbled on this. It's in my avatar, but maybe in this larger version you can also see 2 dogs on the sofa, and a litter of pups in an expen on the floor-that was the litter Posh and Belle are in. Meg is panting because she's like a cat, and likes to lay close to the heater, but when she gets too hot, she comes and jumps in my lap.


What a lap full of love!


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## krandall

Tom King said:


> Razzle, full coat version. She still looks like this. This was blown up from her New Champion photo.
> 
> It sure is nice that the new Forums software automatically downsizes photos for you now. You used to have to do it yourself before you could download one.


I love that photo. Pam gave me a copy of it when I got Kodi. He has grown up to look so much like her. She has more black in her tail though. He has none there. Is that Belton markings, or did she have black there from puppyhood?

I didn't know the forum software now downsized for you. I've been wasting my time downsizing every one!!!:frusty:


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## motherslittlehelper

krandall said:


> I love that photo. Pam gave me a copy of it when I got Kodi. He has grown up to look so much like her. She has more black in her tail though. He has none there. Is that Belton markings, or did she have black there from puppyhood?
> 
> I didn't know the forum software now downsized for you. I've been wasting my time downsizing every one!!!:frusty:



I didn't know either! When did that change?

Love looking at these photos and the black ticking in the white coats. I can't believe Rosie shows up with so much in short coat, but it isn't visible when her coat is long!


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## krandall

motherslittlehelper said:


> Love looking at these photos and the black ticking in the white coats. I can't believe Rosie shows up with so much in short coat, but it isn't visible when her coat is long!


I know! Another reason for me to want to keep Kodi long! (though I'm still not convinced he has as much as Rosie or his mom)


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## Luciledodd

Karen I don't think he does either. If Rosie is not brushed the charcoal and black shows more. Her hair makes little tiny corkscrews after a few days from her bath. then it shows more.


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## krandall

Luciledodd said:


> Karen I don't think he does either. If Rosie is not brushed the charcoal and black shows more. Her hair makes little tiny corkscrews after a few days from her bath. then it shows more.


Yeah, you can see in some of Kodi's photos that his hair has a definite wavy to it, but it NEVER makes corkscrews, even if I don't groom him for several days. I don't think he could EVER be corded!!!ound:


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## clare

Thanks every one this is such an interesting thread,it is lovely to see the progression of the different pups coats.I particularly liked the shot of Kodi from above showing his lovely markings along his centre parting.In Britain we don't have anything like the choice of colour or coat type.


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## DonnaC

So interesting! Baxter's hair is getting less frizzy, and softer, but it has a definite curl. When I don't comb it, he has a Portugeuse water dog look.

I love the black markings -- just love black and white dogs!


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## misstray

Here's a couple more shots of Brody I took this morning. The first you can sort of see the little bit of white that peaks out of his black section (middle of his back). In the other I think you can really see how dingy/grey/ashy looking the black makes his white look. I still think he's adorable, but at this length he looks dirty all the time. I do really like how the black threads through his tail though.

I think it'll be interesting to see how his coat progresses, maybe his white sections are going to become blacker or maybe not, you just never know which is just one of the many interesting things about Havs.


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## krandall

misstray said:


> Here's a couple more shots of Brody I took this morning. The first you can sort of see the little bit of white that peaks out of his black section (middle of his back). In the other I think you can really see how dingy/grey/ashy looking the black makes his white look. I still think he's adorable, but at this length he looks dirty all the time. I do really like how the black threads through his tail though.
> 
> I think it'll be interesting to see how his coat progresses, maybe his white sections are going to become blacker or maybe not, you just never know which is just one of the many interesting things about Havs.


If I'm remembering right, Cicero was a B&W puppy... His black silvered and his belton marks grew until he looks like a pretty solidly silver dog now!


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## LunasMom

Sorry for being dumb, but I have been following this thread and I still am not sure what Belton marks are nor what a Belton gene is. I think Luna has some strange looking black spots on her back that weren't there before. I just want to know if she will be changing her coat as she matures.


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## Julie

I think it would be easiest to explain it like this.......black freckles or spots. If your pup has them,they have the belton gene. This simply means as the hair grows out longer so will that hair in that spot. A white dog with a black spot has black hair in it now. It will continue to grow out and if there are many spots....it could make the white appear more gray overall.

Lucile--I think Rosie is beautiful with all her spots! 
Tom--Razzle is beautiful in full coat...what appears to be gray patches are gorgeous and would be great to paint!


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## krandall

LunasMom said:


> Sorry for being dumb, but I have been following this thread and I still am not sure what Belton marks are nor what a Belton gene is. I think Luna has some strange looking black spots on her back that weren't there before. I just want to know if she will be changing her coat as she matures.


The most obvious example is Dalmations, which are born white, then develop their spots as they get a bit older. Some Dals have lots of spots, others have fewer. But there are many other breeds with this pattern too. It's really common in some of the hunting dogs too. For a really good view of a RANGE of Belton expression, Google English Setter Images! Belton marks aren't always black, either. It's a pattern, not a color. It wouldn't be nearly as noticeable, but if you have Sable Parti or Red Parti, they could also have Belton marks that match their colored markings. So it's not just B&W dogs who have them, but it's more obvious on them.

As Julie said, if there are a LOT of Belton spots, it can make the hair look grey or smokey because of the mix of black and white hairs. With a dog like Kodi, who has fewer, you get candy stripes.<g> I think by the time Kodi was about 6 months old, I could part his hair and see the start of black down near the roots in the places the stripes would develop. I'll go back and see if I can find some photos of his back then. I know I took some.

If Luna is showing some black spots on her skin, she probably has the Belton gene. How many spots and how much black she'll get, who knows? That's part of the charm of Havanese!:biggrin1:


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## misstray

LunasMom said:


> Sorry for being dumb, but I have been following this thread and I still am not sure what Belton marks are nor what a Belton gene is. I think Luna has some strange looking black spots on her back that weren't there before. I just want to know if she will be changing her coat as she matures.


I don't think you're dumb at all. I find the colour pattern thing confusing as well - good thing I'm not a breeder having to choose one for registration, etc. I don't even know for sure that Brody is Belton, I'm just assuming that the black he has interspersed throughout his white is in fact ticking. I get confused because he never really looks "spotted" like you see in a lot of the Belton pictures that illustrate the concept, he just looks ashy and the only freckles I can see on his skin are brown ones on his belly.


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## LunasMom

I have to believe that Luna has the Belton gene, then. She has lots of black spots on her back that look like black hair is growing our of them but the rest of the same hair is white. They seem to be in the center of the back. I have had DH take some pictures up close on the black spots for everyone's inspection
Karen, you say Kodi has this but he looks very white to me.


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## krandall

misstray said:


> I don't think you're dumb at all. I find the colour pattern thing confusing as well - good thing I'm not a breeder having to choose one for registration, etc. I don't even know for sure that Brody is Belton, I'm just assuming that the black he has interspersed throughout his white is in fact ticking. I get confused because he never really looks "spotted" like you see in a lot of the Belton pictures that illustrate the concept, he just looks ashy and the only freckles I can see on his skin are brown ones on his belly.


Did you look at the Google Images of the English Setters? They clearly show ashy-looking dogs that are Belton. I'm sure that's what causes his ashy-ness. It's just pretty extreme Belton markings. BTW, I don't think he looks dirty... just not white! He's adorable!


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## misstray

Just for comparison here's his 1 week photo vs his photo after his groom (end of October).

I can't believe how much white he's lost off his face.

Karen, yes I checked out the English Setters, thanks!


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## krandall

OK, I found a few more of Kodi's back when he was younger, showing the Belton stripes (spots) growing out. In the first, taken on 1/1/10, He was exactly 7 months old, and you can see that the lines are quite short, just emerging. (Again, the long black stripe is not a Belton spot, that's a real black pigment spot that he's had since birth)

The second photo is 0n 3/24/10 at 11 months, and then 4/09/10 just a couple of weeks later. I've included the one of him on the ramp last summer (at 2 yrs and a couple of months) again, so you don't have to scroll back and forth to see the progression. I just measured his stripes now, and the hair is about 7" long, giving you an idea how far it extends down his sides.


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## krandall

misstray said:


> Just for comparison here's his 1 week photo vs his photo after his groom (end of October).


Oh, that is cool to see!!! What an adorable baby he was!!! You can actually already see a lot of darker pigment in the skin around his nose, even in his baby picture. How old is he now?


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## misstray

He's 10 months old today!


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## krandall

misstray said:


> He's 10 months old today!


Happy 10 month-aversary, Brody!


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## java

wow he's beautiful. Much different than Java. He's a little poof ball, really.
He's lightening up though.
The breeder said he was dark chocolate. He's not technically a chocolate because his nose is black.


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## krandall

java said:


> wow he's beautiful. Much different than Java. He's a little poof ball, really.
> He's lightening up though.
> The breeder said he was dark chocolate. He's not technically a chocolate because his nose is black.


He's a cutie. He could be Havana Brown, which does have black skin, or this could be the first stage toward turning blue or silver. I haven't seen it, but I've read that many dogs who end up blue or silver go through a rusty stage first.


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## java

well his skin isn't black, so it's not not that.
but it's weird cause he has tiny little hints of white at the tips of his ears and on his chest and paws. sometimes he looks black and sometimes he looks reddish brown.
whatever the color I just hope his hair gets long enough to stay out of his eyes like kodi


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## krandall

java said:


> well his skin isn't black, so it's not not that.
> but it's weird cause he has tiny little hints of white at the tips of his ears and on his chest and paws. sometimes he looks black and sometimes he looks reddish brown.
> whatever the color I just hope his hair gets long enough to stay out of his eyes like kodi


When I said "skin", I meant his nose and eye rims. You said those were black, right? If so, he could be Havana Brown. If he's ad the white bits all along, they are probably just markings. If he's getting more white as he matures, it's probably a sign of silvering. If he's silvering, it's common for a lot of them to go through a stage where the black gets a reddish/brownish tinge.

Don't let Kodi's photos fool you. In the older photos, he had some hair cut in front to keep it out of his eyes. Now that it's longer, I need to keep it up on a pony to keep it out of his eyes. I'm HOPING that when it gets really long, it will part naturally on each side of his face the way his dad's does.


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## java

Ohh okay gotcha. Yeah he's got the black skin then. He's only had some of the white parts, he's getting more but they're very slight.
Can he be both havana brown and silvering?
And yeah that's what im waiting to see, what his hair will do as it gets longer!


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## krandall

java said:


> Ohh okay gotcha. Yeah he's got the black skin then. He's only had some of the white parts, he's getting more but they're very slight.
> Can he be both havana brown and silvering?
> And yeah that's what im waiting to see, what his hair will do as it gets longer!


If he silvers, I don't think it would be considered real Havana brown, since it's common for silvers to turn brownish for a while. But Havs are always a mystery when it comes to color!:biggrin1:


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## Becky Chittenden

Oliver's black hair on his body is getting browner by the day, but not his head. I imagine he is going to be silver eventually. sox, his aunt and cousin is silvered but was black when younger.


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## misstray

I posted some pictures over on a thread about Brody's grooming today, but I think I'm going to post them in this Belton thread as well because you can really see the ticking on him after I had him shaved down. I honestly think there are more spots now than when I had him cut down in October. Or maybe it's just cuz his hair is shorter now.


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## krandall

He sure does have a lot of spots!


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## Carefulove

Question: Do wiskers grow back? I thought they shouldn't be cut?


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## krandall

Carefulove said:


> Question: Do wiskers grow back? I thought they shouldn't be cut?


Some people say they shouldn't be cut because dogs DO use them to judge the size of things around their heads, etc. (just like cats) But show people routinely cut whiskers off short haired show dogs. I don't think the whiskers on our Havanese do the dog much good, because they are so hidden in the rest of their facial hair!:biggrin1: But that all being said, yes, they do grow back.

This often comes up with horses too. Some people are adamant about not cutting horses' whiskers, saying that they help them find their way around in the dark. But most show people routinely shave whiskers, right down to the skin... and if they show often, they have to do it every week. They grow back FAST!


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## Kalico

Kodi had fur as a puppy that was just like Jasmine's! I am always wondering why she looks somewhat different from many of the puppy pics I see on this forum.

I just realized Jasmine might have the belton gene. She is a sable parti, mostly all white with sable ears, and she has developed on her back large freckle-like spots you can see through her fur (which is straight and silky and rather fine). Will these spots grow sable hair?


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## BennyBoy

krandall said:


> Hey folks, in another thread, I promised that I'd dig up photos of Kodi's coat progression so that people could see what happens with the Belton gene. (though some Beltons show much more ticking than Kodi does)
> 
> I also find it interesting, looking back, how very different Kodi's coat was as a puppy from many of the curly-coated puppies we see here. While the curly coated pups are absolutely adorable, they also, generally mean that you'll be working harder through blowing coat. So if easy of coat matters to you, and you are looking for a puppy, look for one with a non-curly coat.
> 
> I was actually surprised to see, as I went through the pix that Kodi's coat was straighter even than his two siblings in the photos. (though that is NOT why I picked him!)
> 
> This will probably take a couple of posts:
> 
> The first photo here is 7/15/2009, when I went to pick Kodi up. This is all 3 puppies (the two Irish Pied had already left) Kodi is in the middle. I believe they were 11 weeks more or less.
> 
> The other photos, in order, Kodi on 7/15, 8/9, 10/8/09 and 1/8/10. Even in the last photo, a 6 months, you can't see any Belton marks at all.


 Wow - that pic of him in the grass looks exactly like Benny!


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## misstray

So Brody got shaved down on the May 7. He was pretty spotted. He's starting to get ashy looking now.

You can scroll up to see the May 7th pictures. I'm going to post one I took on May 15 (still very spotted looking) and one I took today (he's now getting more ashy looking as the hair grows out).

I just thought it would be interesting to see how it changes as his hair grows in again.


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## Pixiesmom

Kodi is so stinking cute.


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## krandall

Awww, thanks. I think so too, but I'm just a wee bit predjudiced!!!


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## jessegirl

krandall said:


> The most obvious example is Dalmations, which are born white, then develop their spots as they get a bit older. Some Dals have lots of spots, others have fewer. But there are many other breeds with this pattern too. It's really common in some of the hunting dogs too. For a really good view of a RANGE of Belton expression, Google English Setter Images! Belton marks aren't always black, either. It's a pattern, not a color. It wouldn't be nearly as noticeable, but if you have Sable Parti or Red Parti, they could also have Belton marks that match their colored markings. So it's not just B&W dogs who have them, but it's more obvious on them.:


So that's what the spots I'm finding on Rollie are. Belton spots. He has multi-color ticking all through the topcoat on his back too - is that also due to the Belton gene? I posted pics of this in a separate thread, but here are 2:


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## jessegirl

java said:


> wow he's beautiful. Much different than Java. He's a little poof ball, really.
> He's lightening up though.
> The breeder said he was dark chocolate. He's not technically a chocolate because his nose is black.


OMG, Java is the cutest little shaggy floof ever!


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## krandall

jessegirl said:


> So that's what the spots I'm finding on Rollie are. Belton spots. He has multi-color ticking all through the topcoat on his back too - is that also due to the Belton gene? I posted pics of this in a separate thread, but here are 2:


Yes, I agree... I think the spots are Belton spots. The different colors, however, I think are something else. I think Tom has said that a lot of sables have a sprinkling of black hair. The other possibility is that he is actually a brindle, but you'd think the breeder would have known that before his hair started to get longer and the pattern was more obvious.

So my vote is still for sable belton.:biggrin1:


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## jessegirl

krandall said:


> Yes, I agree... I think the spots are Belton spots. The different colors, however, I think are something else. I think Tom has said that a lot of sables have a sprinkling of black hair. The other possibility is that he is actually a brindle, but you'd think the breeder would have known that before his hair started to get longer and the pattern was more obvious.
> 
> So my vote is still for sable belton.:biggrin1:


The brindle makes sense. His mother was overall browner with more black than him, but she has a similar mixture of colors. When he was a pup, he was brown then the grey layer came in, now the mixed with black ticking.

Here's Rollie's momma (Rollie is the lone brown guy in the corner - he was so cute . . . ).


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## Carefulove

That mixture of color looks more like a Sable than a brindle to me, but I am no expert. I thought brindle had more Black. Sable has a "sprinke" of black.


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## krandall

Carefulove said:


> That mixture of color looks more like a Sable than a brindle to me, but I am no expert. I thought brindle had more Black. Sable has a "sprinke" of black.


I think it's more likely that Rollie is sable too. But brindles can fade a lot too. The difference is that you can clearly see the tiger stripes on brindles when they are little and their hair is still short.


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## Tom King

Carefulove said:


> That mixture of color looks more like a Sable than a brindle to me, but I am no expert. I thought brindle had more Black. Sable has a "sprinke" of black.


I was sending a link to this thread to someone, and skimmed through it when I found this post from Zury.

It turns out that Sable and Brindle, as we know them in Havanese, are produced by the same color genes. There are so many Modifiers at work in Havanese that the whole puzzle has not been sorted out yet, but at least the available color genes are now known, and what they can produce. I haven't bothered to study it all, but I did hear Pam talking about the Sable and Brindle to someone on the phone recently.


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## jessegirl

All I know is I love Rollie's coat. His golden spots are getting longer and longer. He's my golden boy.


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## Momo means Peach

I suspected, after getting Ume, that he had the Belton trait. I could see some spotting on his back when he took a bath and his tail was a mixture of black and white, making it look grayish. After the hubby took Ume for a summer cut, my suspicions were confirmed. He has spots on his back, his chest, his paws.

:jaw:


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## Momo means Peach

But Mr Personality says he's cute any which way he is.


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## krandall

Hey, there's nothing wrong with Belton! Ume's adorable!


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## Momo means Peach

Thanks, Karen. 

I'll be interested in seeing if more develop as he gets older. He's 6 months right now, so, I guess there's still time for further spotting. I like the progression pictures you put of Kodi. I imagine that there will be a similar progression.


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## krandall

Momo means Peach said:


> Thanks, Karen.
> 
> I'll be interested in seeing if more develop as he gets older. He's 6 months right now, so, I guess there's still time for further spotting. I like the progression pictures you put of Kodi. I imagine that there will be a similar progression.


My guess is that if he has that many spots at 6 months, he'll have more. Kodi had almost none at that age. I'm sure the rate of progression differs from dog to dog, though!


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## Momo means Peach

As you suspected Karen, his latest haircut showed many more spots. He may look like a total Dalmatian before he's done.


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## krandall

Momo means Peach said:


> As you suspected Karen, his latest haircut showed many more spots. He may look like a total Dalmatian before he's done.
> 
> View attachment 45121


Cute! A Hav-a-matian! :biggrin1:


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## Luciledodd

Rosie looks like some kind of Spaniel or Setter now with her haircut.


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## Momo means Peach

ound:


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## Momo means Peach

Lucile, with Momo's reddish brown markings, sometimes I think she looks Spaniel-like herself, although probably not in the same way as you are thinking for Rosie.


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## Targaryen

Thought I'd add my little Dresden in here. He's 5.5 months old now and started getting his spots around 3 months and I swear he's blacker every week!
He's a black and tan parti and we've even found a few tan stripes now too.

His father is a Belton but not as heavily marked as Dresden is right now.

So here he is (there's black all through his tail too)

This first photo was taken at the beginning of the month after a bath. You couldn't see his spots when he was dry then.









And now, dry you can see the colour really coming in (and the tan points on his ears)


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## krandall

It's so much fun to see them change. And some of the Beltons have only a few dark stripes, while others turn really sooty all over, and everything in between!


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## Targaryen

I'm super excited to see how Dresden turns out. I've been google searching Belton Havanese and some of the changes are incredible!


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## Lalla

I'm so ignorant that I don't even know why they are called "Belton", Karen?? What does "Belton" describe exactly?


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## krandall

The Belton pattern is dark spots in the white areas of a dog. You see it a lot in hunting breeds, like English Setters and a lot of pointers. In Havanese, since their hair is long, if they are kept in long coat, the "spots" turn into "stripes" of dark hair (whatever the ground color of the dog is… it's most obvious in B&W dogs, but can just as easily happen in sables, chocolates, etc.) 

Kodi doesn't have a lot of spots… you mostly see them when he is wet, or when you look RIGHT down on his back. (as you can see in the early photos in this thread) We have a couple of B&W Parti Beltons on the forum (Like Tracy's Brody) whose Belton markings are so extreme that his "white" areas look almost grey now that he is an adult. Kodi's mom, Razzle, who you can see on the Starborn Havanese web site is in the middle… with more Belton markings than Kodi, but less than Brody. There is a HUGE amount of variation, and it also depends on whether the dog is in long coat or a puppy cut. The black tends to show more, the shorter the coat is.


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## Lalla

Thank you! I love the photos of baby Kodi, he's so dear; but he's gorgeous grown-up, too. Lovely to see the progression.


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## Targaryen

So I took some more photos of Dresden tonight (I'm trying to get monthly ones to watch the progression of colour change) and he's certainly darkened in only a months time.

Wet:









Dry:









And a stacked one. He's not showing the colour on the side yet but it is getting there.


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## krandall

Yup! It's coming!  He sure is cute!


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## Celesthav

Amazing to see the color change. He's BEATIFUL! Keep the pictures coming. My little one is mostly black with a little bit of white so won't be much change. 
:wave: Jeanne


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## Targaryen

So Dresden is now over a year old and the belton markings are getting more obvious!



















His half sister, little Siennawho is owned by the breeder, is white and gold and seems to be getting belton markings as well. I look forward to how she turns out.


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## krandall

Oh, I LOVE Dresden's candy-cane stripes!!!


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## Celesthav

Dresden is beautiful. Love his belton coloring. He looks so silky and soft. 
Jeanne & Maggie


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## RitaandRiley

I'm glad you resurrected this thread! I have a Belton now! Reo will be 3 in October, do you think he'll get more black?


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## krandall

RitaandRiley said:


> I'm glad you resurrected this thread! I have a Belton now! Reo will be 3 in October, do you think he'll get more black?


A Dalahav!  Kodi has't gotten any more spots after about 2 years old... The stripes got longer as his hair grew to full length, but he didn't get more spots.


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## Karen Collins

These are gorgeous examples of Beltons! Love the pics!


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## Marbel

I love the Belton markings ... Do they show right away when they are young?


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## krandall

Marbel said:


> I love the Belton markings ... Do they show right away when they are young?


No, they typically look black and clear white when they are born. As they mature, they get more spots. As their hair grows out, the "spots" turn into "stripes". Look at some of the photos of little puppies (including Kodi) at the beginning of the thread.


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## Marbel

So have you ever seen a chocolate with Belton markings?


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## krandall

Marbel said:


> So have you ever seen a chocolate with Belton markings?


The Belton gene is completely separate from the color genes. Belton markings can go with any color. They just show up most clearly on a B&W dog because of the strong contrast. (or a dark chocolate and white, but only a few chocolates stay really dark)


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## krandall

A couple of more recent photos of Kodi. He's definitely Belton, but he's still also definitely a "white dog with a black head and a spot" until you look closely.


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## Targaryen

He's a handsome lad


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