# I think ive found a breeder



## mozzerellas98 (Mar 3, 2012)

Ok so ive been doing lotsa research and i think im going to buy my havanese from Sheryls Must Havs in NY. heres the link for the website. http://sherylsmusthavs.com/home is it a good place? thanks! eace:


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Not a good breeder. Maybe someone else will recommend a good one in your area. You can also go to the Delaware Valley Havanese. They have a breeder referral page.

Please also read the post about what to look for in a breeder. I think it's on the top of the home page of this forum.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

It does say they have CERF, but doesn't mention any other testing...?
seems like it COULD be a decent breeder, BUT I HIGHLY recommend going and visiting before making any commitment!! 
Although she breeds Havanese/Lhasa mixes and that concerns me... have you gone and visited any other breeders??


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Nooooo! They breed Hav/apso's?  Run.

Please take the time to read how to find a reputable/ethical breeder. I didn't even get past the first page and saw many red flags at that website, check this thread out:

http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=16008

Kara


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Lhasa/Havanese mixes? No, not a good breeder. Good breeders have a very specific goal in mind, the breed standard. How is a breeder going to work towards that with two completely different standards? IMHO there are a number of reputable breeders in your area for selecting a good breeder, you can refer to the home page for red flags.


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## mozzerellas98 (Mar 3, 2012)

ok how about this place http://twinshavanese.com/


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## mozzerellas98 (Mar 3, 2012)

i asked sheryls must havs questions and this is what she answered me: All of my puppies leave here with their first set of puppy vaccines, at least 3 worming treatments, their AKC Limited Registration application, a one year health guarantee against severe life threatening hereditary defects, a lifetime of support, their first harness & leash, a blanket with their mom and litter mates scent, toys, treats, a starter supply of food, a couple other surprises, and most of all...pre-spoiled, pre-socialized, and pre-loved. I do require my new puppy owners to sign a purchase agreement to guarantee that none of my puppies will ever end up in a shelter or dog pound facility. After someone chooses their puppy, I send them a supply list to help them prepare for their new puppy's arrival. I even offer boarding services at $20 per day so that my puppies don't have to be kenneled when their owners need to go out of town. My puppies are never forgotten after they leave here and my new puppy owners become part of my extended family. I truly love what I do.
I think that she is a good breeder, even though she breeds hava/apsos.


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## angiern2004 (Apr 24, 2011)

So, I'm confused. Do you think she's great because she gives you a bunch of stuff?

Red flags:
1. Parents are only cerf'd. There are other tests that you should be looking for that they do not do. 
2. They only sell puppies on a limited registration basis. Makes me super wonder if they know their pups don't conform to standard. 
3. They don't say anything about showing their dogs. That's how breeders 'test' the quality of their parent dogs. 
4. They breed hava-apsos. Even though that doesn't sound like a big deal, it really is, because it shows that their first interest is making money off of 'cute puppies and mixes'. If they were truly interested in the quality of the breed, they wouldn't breed mixes. 

And that's only by skimming thru the site. Check out the thread here that helps you ask all the right questions and what kind of answers you can generally expect from the reputable breeders.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mozzerellas98 said:


> ok how about this place http://twinshavanese.com/


They say absolutely nothing about health testing of the parents, nor do they mention showing their dogs. "Championship lines" mean nothing at all. You can find puppy mill dogs with "championship lines". What matters is that the breeder is showing their breeding stock to prove their quality before breeding them.

I would look further or ask a LOT of questions.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

angiern2004 said:


> So, I'm confused. Do you think she's great because she gives you a bunch of stuff?
> 
> Red flags:
> 1. Parents are only cerf'd. There are other tests that you should be looking for that they do not do.
> ...


The highlighted is the only thing I don't agree with. MANY reputable breeders will not sell their puppies as breeding/show stock unless they know the people REALLY well and have the experience to take the job of showing and breeding completely seriously.

Also, even the one test they say they do on the parents (CERF) is not a one-time test. It is a test that should be done annually on all breeding stock.


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## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

Mozzerellas98, 

When you start looking for a pup, is usually when you are ready to have him/her so you want to get the pup as soon as possible. That is when many people make the mistake of getting the first pup that becomes available. Sometimes they get lucky and the pup comes from a great breeder, but others, they don't.

Don't rush this process, this puppy will remain in your life for many, many years, you want to make sure that you do everything possible to ensure that he comes from a reputable breeder who does their best to produce healthy balanced pups. This doesn't mean that they are "Vet Checked" but that the breeder has health tested his/her parents and the parents of the parents, and so on. That they have done their best to breed away from health issues (this doesn't mean that a pup from a reputable breeder will always be free of any illness). The health tests are often listed in OFFA.org and you can go there and search for the pup’s parents’ names to see the results.

There are many helpful threads in this site that will help you determine how to spot a good breeder, plus you can always ask us questions.

Good luck finding your Pup!


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

That is all great advice, Sury, Angie and Karen,

I take it you didn't heed the tip to read the looking for a good breeder thread, I think its really fishy that they are giving away everything but the kitchen sink to a buyer..for cripes sake. Why not throw in a toddler wading pool and a volleyball net? sheesh..

Sorry, but unless they are working towards breeding that breeds OUT problems and hereditary conditions, they aren't worth the time of day, IMO. Havs are prone to some very serious (and expensive) hereditary problems if they are purchased from breeders who do not aggressively screen and test their dogs.

Health guarantee? Is the breeder picking up every single vet bill you have outside of shots? I seriously doubt it.

Kara


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## monalisa85 (Feb 7, 2012)

Mozz -
I've been a lurker for a while and am in the process of finding my first Hav. I actually looked at Sheryl's puppies a couple months ago, and met her at her house. She is definitely a very nice woman who loves her Havs. She does mix with Apso, those are 3/4 Hav and 1/4 Apso (she has 2 females that are half-and-half). My personal impression was wary based on what I've read on this forum. She specifically told me that she doesn't do all the health testing because she doesn't want to put the dogs through the 2 hour+ road trip each year to get it done. I was very concerned about the patellas in the puppy I really wanted, something about his hips/legs just didn't look right. Without soaping, I couldn't know for sure. She doesn't currently show her dogs, and she will be moving out of state soon, so she may be difficult to track if you do have problems. She also mentioned two types of coats, which I haven't heard given the names she mentioned (basically the silky and the cottony coats), her dogs have both and she doesn't have a preference.

Overall, I decided I wanted to find a breeder who shows, does all the health testing, breeds towards the standards, and says they'll be there for all your questions and concerns. That being said, she does raise the puppies and her parents well (no kennels, all the dogs live inside) and they are quite adorable.


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## GrannyMouse (Sep 3, 2010)

mozzerellas98 said:


> i asked sheryls must havs questions and this is what she answered me: All of my puppies leave here with their first set of puppy vaccines, at least 3 worming treatments, their AKC Limited Registration application, a one year health guarantee against severe life threatening hereditary defects, a lifetime of support, their first harness & leash, a blanket with their mom and litter mates scent, toys, treats, a starter supply of food, a couple other surprises, and most of all...pre-spoiled, pre-socialized, and pre-loved. I do require my new puppy owners to sign a purchase agreement to guarantee that none of my puppies will ever end up in a shelter or dog pound facility. After someone chooses their puppy, I send them a supply list to help them prepare for their new puppy's arrival. I even offer boarding services at $20 per day so that my puppies don't have to be kenneled when their owners need to go out of town. My puppies are never forgotten after they leave here and my new puppy owners become part of my extended family. I truly love what I do.
> I think that she is a good breeder, even though she breeds hava/apsos.


If after reading all the comments, you still consider her a good breeder, you must be looking for different qualities in your puppy. I am pretty new to all of this but would never consider a puppy from this breeder. Listen to what the voices of experience are telling you.


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## angiern2004 (Apr 24, 2011)

monalisa85 said:


> Mozz -
> I've been a lurker for a while and am in the process of finding my first Hav. I actually looked at Sheryl's puppies a couple months ago, and met her at her house. She is definitely a very nice woman who loves her Havs. She does mix with Apso, those are 3/4 Hav and 1/4 Apso (she has 2 females that are half-and-half). My personal impression was wary based on what I've read on this forum. She specifically told me that she doesn't do all the health testing because she doesn't want to put the dogs through the 2 hour+ road trip each year to get it done. I was very concerned about the patellas in the puppy I really wanted, something about his hips/legs just didn't look right. Without soaping, I couldn't know for sure. She doesn't currently show her dogs, and she will be moving out of state soon, so she may be difficult to track if you do have problems. She also mentioned two types of coats, which I haven't heard given the names she mentioned (basically the silky and the cottony coats), her dogs have both and she doesn't have a preference.
> 
> Overall, I decided I wanted to find a breeder who shows, does all the health testing, breeds towards the standards, and says they'll be there for all your questions and concerns. That being said, she does raise the puppies and her parents well (no kennels, all the dogs live inside) and they are quite adorable.


I'm sorry, but this is a pretty weak reason in my opinion. She'd rather risk serious health issues in the pups than to make her dogs travel once a year? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, and doesn't seem like 'commitment'.


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## monalisa85 (Feb 7, 2012)

angiern2004 said:


> I'm sorry, but this is a pretty weak reason in my opinion. She'd rather risk serious health issues in the pups than to make her dogs travel once a year? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, and doesn't seem like 'commitment'.


I agree, it was the first clue that she was not the breeder for me.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Thumper said:


> Health guarantee? Is the breeder picking up every single vet bill you have outside of shots? I seriously doubt it.
> 
> Kara


From what I saw, almost every genetic health problem that didn't outright kill the puppy in its first year was specifically excluded from the health guarantee.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

monalisa85 said:


> Mozz -
> I've been a lurker for a while and am in the process of finding my first Hav. I actually looked at Sheryl's puppies a couple months ago, and met her at her house. She is definitely a very nice woman who loves her Havs. She does mix with Apso, those are 3/4 Hav and 1/4 Apso (she has 2 females that are half-and-half). My personal impression was wary based on what I've read on this forum. She specifically told me that she doesn't do all the health testing because she doesn't want to put the dogs through the 2 hour+ road trip each year to get it done. I was very concerned about the patellas in the puppy I really wanted, something about his hips/legs just didn't look right. Without soaping, I couldn't know for sure. She doesn't currently show her dogs, and she will be moving out of state soon, so she may be difficult to track if you do have problems. She also mentioned two types of coats, which I haven't heard given the names she mentioned (basically the silky and the cottony coats), her dogs have both and she doesn't have a preference.
> 
> Overall, I decided I wanted to find a breeder who shows, does all the health testing, breeds towards the standards, and says they'll be there for all your questions and concerns. That being said, she does raise the puppies and her parents well (no kennels, all the dogs live inside) and they are quite adorable.


1. Not being willing to travel 2 hours for health testing is just laziness. Kodi travels that far to shows on a regular basis and looks forward to the car ride. Heck, we traveled 1500 miles with him on vacation last summer, and he loved every minute of it. Getting dogs used to riding in the car is part of proper socialization.

2. Soaps won't tell you whether a puppy has bad patellas. That takes physical examination. A good breeder, I'm sure, can tell, or a vet. Not the average pet buyer, and not based on just looking at soaps.

3. IMO, producing mixed breed "mutts" for money is simply irresponsible. And while I'm sure they are cute, you can get ADORABLE mixed breed mutts from rescues, and be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

You made the right decision not to buy from her, and I hope the OP will too.


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## Blue_Persuasion (Jan 4, 2012)

I get the feeling the OP didn't want to hear all this. She just wants a puppy.


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## Miss Paige (Apr 4, 2008)

Great Advise-if the person will just listen. If it were me I would have already been looking for another breeder-when I hear this breeder was mixing breeds-NO Responsible Breeder would consider doing that type of breeding-IMO- Run as far and as fast as you can the other way.


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## angiern2004 (Apr 24, 2011)

Blue_Persuasion said:


> I get the feeling the OP didn't want to hear all this. She just wants a puppy.


Ya me too. Hope we didn't scare the OP away.

Has anyone pm'd the OP with constructive suggestions of where TO go? I don't know much about that area, and I know a lot of you are experts.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Blue Persuasion and Angie..,

I'm sorry if you feel the responses are harsh, they are not meant to be harsh towards the OP, but rather the breeder who doesn't have the best interest of our breed in mind, we want them to work towards getting rid of problems like Chrondo, Hip dysplasia, cataracts and other genetic issues. If a breeder is not actively trying to screen their dogs and show their dogs to the standard, than they really don't care about our breed, they just care about making a few bucks at the expense of having sick puppies who the buyer is stuck with the very high vet bills,..there by not really saving any money by going with the less expensive breeder in the long run

I have been here for a long time, 6 years..and I have seen and read many regrets and problems from people who have chosen this route, I'd really love to spare future grief for the puppy buyers AND the puppies and really not be supportive of puppy mills or breeders doing it for the wrong reasons.

The testing itself is not expensive, and 2 hours is not that big of a sacrifice to make, IMO.

But that's just my opinion and I didn't mean to offend the OP, just help her.

Kara


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

angiern2004 said:


> Ya me too. Hope we didn't scare the OP away.
> 
> Has anyone pm'd the OP with constructive suggestions of where TO go? I don't know much about that area, and I know a lot of you are experts.


Yes, I have PM'd the OP with breeder recommendations that pass the sniff test and are wonderful contributors to the breed, as I am in the same general area as the OP. I have met them in person at shows, had lengthy conversations over the phone with them or lengthy email exchanges. The OP has a nice short list to work with, all are local breeders, so I'm not sure why she continues to ask about other breeders. Seems kind of impatient to me...


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

NO! RUN!


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## angiern2004 (Apr 24, 2011)

Thumper said:


> Blue Persuasion and Angie..,
> 
> I'm sorry if you feel the responses are harsh, they are not meant to be harsh towards the OP, but rather the breeder who doesn't have the best interest of our breed in mind, we want them to work towards getting rid of problems like Chrondo, Hip dysplasia, cataracts and other genetic issues. If a breeder is not actively trying to screen their dogs and show their dogs to the standard, than they really don't care about our breed, they just care about making a few bucks at the expense of having sick puppies who the buyer is stuck with the very high vet bills,..there by not really saving any money by going with the less expensive breeder in the long run
> 
> ...


I didn't say anything like that. I even posted two responses prior to asking that question. I just wanted to see if anyone pointed the op in the right direction, is all.


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

angiern2004 said:


> I didn't say anything like that. I even posted two responses prior to asking that question. I just wanted to see if anyone pointed the op in the right direction, is all.


Yes, see my post 2 posts before yours.


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## HannahBearsMom (Jul 31, 2011)

monalisa85 said:


> Mozz -
> She specifically told me that she doesn't do all the health testing because she doesn't want to put the dogs through the 2 hour+ road trip each year to get it done.


I also spoke with Sheryl several times, but never met her. She did seem very friendly, but that is not what I want to base my pupy breeder on. Her explanation regarding why she doesn't do testing does not make much sense. She moved to NY from NC last summer. From her home in NC, she would not have to travel 2 hours for testing. I could almost understand if she let the testing "lapse" when she moved to NY (I still would not buy a puppy from her though), but that is not what she said. And what is 2 hours? My puppy rode 3+ hours to get home to my house and took a 2 hour road trip 2 weekends ago.

Also, FWIW, Sheryl was charging only about $500 less than the top-notch breeder I chose.


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## HannahBearsMom (Jul 31, 2011)

Miss Paige said:


> Great Advise-if the person will just listen. If it were me I would have already been looking for another breeder-when I hear this breeder was mixing breeds-NO Responsible Breeder would consider doing that type of breeding-IMO- Run as far and as fast as you can the other way.


That is exactly what made me look elsewhere!


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

angiern2004 said:


> I didn't say anything like that. I even posted two responses prior to asking that question. I just wanted to see if anyone pointed the op in the right direction, is all.


My bad! :kiss: I read it wrong, lack of coffee.. I just definitely don't want to be perceived as being mad at the OP, when I sometimes get mad about other things, it can come across in posts.. I know that happens with me periodically 

Kara


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## angiern2004 (Apr 24, 2011)

Thumper said:


> My bad! :kiss: I read it wrong, lack of coffee.. I just definitely don't want to be perceived as being mad at the OP, when I sometimes get mad about other things, it can come across in posts.. I know that happens with me periodically
> 
> Kara


It's all good. I just wanted to make sure I was being clear too.

I'm glad someone pm'd a list of where TO look. As much as the 'no' stuff helps people choose a breeder (or not), it's super helpful to be nudged in the RIGHT direction. When I was looking at breeders, the 2 or 3 people that pm'd me with good breeder names it was INCREDIBLY helpful in focusing my attention, and ultimately focusing my search.

:biggrin1:


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## Blue_Persuasion (Jan 4, 2012)

Thumper said:


> Blue Persuasion and Angie..,
> 
> I'm sorry if you feel the responses are harsh, they are not meant to be harsh towards the OP...


Oh goodness no! If anything, I felt that the OP was coming for advice and then didn't like the advice you gave her. :suspicious:

I have no issues at all with your responses. eace:


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## Cailleach (Jan 30, 2010)

mozzerellas98 said:


> ok how about this place http://twinshavanese.com/


Twins might not have the best website but I wouldn't be afraid to contact them about a puppy. They have been breeding since 1989 and they have produced some very winning show dogs. I have a twins lines in one of my dogs and they certainly do health test just visit the OFA site. Their site hasn't been updated since 2008 and I don't endorse them but I also wouldn't hesitate to speak with them.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

I would not sell Twins short either, some of the older breeders (not talking age and some may be older) do not have slick fancy web sites, and may not have a whole lot of info, but if you call them you may find they do test, and will give you their dogs OFA numbers, also you can look these up yourself, if the dog is just over 2 they may have not published the results yet. Remember all of us have different skills when dealing with the public and what works for us. 

As for breeding Apso's with Hav's their temperments are very different and OMG the gene pool!!! Good Apso Breeders are trying to save this breed and they have introduced Lhasa's called Gompa's in an attempt to save this breed. Havanese and Lhasa's do well together in a home setting but mixing their gene pool, just not a good idea.

At the end of the day, it is your choice, where they come from does't not change how much you will love that new puppy, please choose wisely a lapse in judgment could result in a blow to your wallet and a broken heart.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Robbie, I had never heard of the Gompa dogs until your post, but then went and looked them up. (gotta love the internet!) VERY interesting reading!


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

The Laughing Magpie said:


> I would not sell Twins short either, some of the older breeders (not talking age and some may be older) do not have slick fancy web sites, and may not have a whole lot of info, but if you call them you may find they do test, and will give you their dogs OFA numbers, also you can look these up yourself, if the dog is just over 2 they may have not published the results yet. Remember all of us have different skills when dealing with the public and what works for us.
> 
> As for breeding Apso's with Hav's their temperments are very different and OMG the gene pool!!! Good Apso Breeders are trying to save this breed and they have introduced Lhasa's called Gompa's in an attempt to save this breed. Havanese and Lhasa's do well together in a home setting but mixing their gene pool, just not a good idea.
> 
> At the end of the day, it is your choice, where they come from does't not change how much you will love that new puppy, please choose wisely a lapse in judgment could result in a blow to your wallet and a broken heart.


Very interesting, thanks for commenting. That was my thought as well with the gene pool, Apso's it seems have their own problems and much more genetic health concerns than the Hav's. I highly disagree with people putting two different breeds together because it's trendy! That's little better than a puppy mill IMHO. Hopefully all of this frank advice for the OP hasn't been for naught, I see she has posted a new thread for what kibble to feed as she doesn't agree with what her breeder is feeding!


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

atsilvers27, the poor Lhasa gene has so many problems UC Davis is trying to help find the marker for PRA in Lhasa's too many in the population have it. Funny thing is there is a test for TT's., There are so many other things this is a breed that should be left in the hands of responsible breeders.

Karen, In many countries they are trying to save the Lhasa breed, in the us they have called them Gompa's, if you have time you should try to look at a site called Tu****a Lhasa Apsos, they too have brought Lhasa's from I believe India or Nepal, most of the Monks have fled to a place in India called Dharamsala, they have always been there but now most who left Tibet are living in exhale there. Anyway there site is kinda cool.


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## StarrLhasa (Jun 6, 2010)

The Laughing Magpie said:


> look at a site called Tu****a Lhasa Apsos, they too have brought Lhasa's from I believe India or Nepal, most of the Monks have fled to a place in India called Dharamsala, they have always been there but now most who left Tibet are living in exhale there. Anyway there site is kinda cool.


Hi, Robbie:

I am having trouble finding the website. Can you be more specific?

Thanks.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

My 6 year Vinny's sire is Twins Noblegold Justa Crusin. I wouldn't hesitate with their breeding. I THINK they lean toward chocolates, but not sure. Vinny is a WONDERFUL boy!!


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Sorry Starr I think of you often when Lhasa's are on my mind. http://www.lhasadogs.com/OldNewComparison.html If this does not get you there let me know for here in America try Fleetfiretimbers lhasa's apsos.


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## StarrLhasa (Jun 6, 2010)

The Laughing Magpie said:


> Sorry Starr I think of you often when Lhasa's are on my mind. http://www.lhasadogs.com/OldNewComparison.html If this does not get you there let me know for here in America try Fleetfiretimbers lhasa's apsos.


Thanks, Robbie. That was very interesting. I had heard about the Gompas and had considered applying to be a foster Mom prior to adopting Buffy and, soon after, Buster. Since then, life has been very full for us.

Have you written any posts about your sojourn in India? I don't want to hijack this thread, but I have wondered about it as I imagine it was a fascinating time in your life. Maybe this conversation should move to a non-Hav area of the Forum.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

The Laughing Magpie said:


> Sorry Starr I think of you often when Lhasa's are on my mind. http://www.lhasadogs.com/OldNewComparison.html If this does not get you there let me know for here in America try Fleetfiretimbers lhasa's apsos.


I was interested to read about the short haired ones (equivalent to our Satins) and that at least. Some people think that these and Tibetan Spaniels are really the same dog. The pictures sure look very similar!


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

In India and Tibet they claim the TT's were the bigger Lhasa's and now the three are considered different breeds. Years ago we use to vacation in Kashmir on a house boat, (it has been too dangerious for Americans and Indians for many years now), you would see the TT's herding Yak and some out with the long haired goats, in Dharamsala you see the smaller Lhasa's these are pets but you see an occasional large one with the smaller one. If you live in India and get a Lhasa most of the pet one's come from these areas and do not look like our show Lhasa's. I hope our Havanese breed will continue in its present state, so they will live on as they are today and entertain generations way beyond ours.


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