# fearful socialization problems...



## Ninja (Nov 1, 2010)

Ninja has a problem with strangers where he barks uncontrollably. Not just strangers either but relatives. Whenever my uncle visits with his wife, he barks and barks like crazy but wags his tail but will not go near him. This is not the first time he has seen them but it still takes him a while to get comfortable. Anyone that he has met when he was younger he is fine with but when people come into the house he goes insane. He is very fearful but wags his tail like he wants to say hello but is hesitant. I'm going to look into a trainer but does anyone know what I should do for now when he barks?

Some other information....Ninja was given to me as a gift from my brother when he was 12 weeks old. He did NOT come from a reptuable place and I was so upset when we learned this but I love him so much and want to do anything I can to make him less afraid. 

As for what I did to socialize him, I didn't walk him until he was 4 months old. I did not know how important it was for socialization to be done early and my vet told me not to take him out until he completed his shots. We did carry him some places and as soon as I was able to take him out, I took him to the park a few times and walked him all the time. 

Any advice will be really appreciated!?

Thank


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## GoldenLove (Dec 3, 2010)

Hi, I am having the same problems with my 8 month Havanese, but mine is a lot more fearful. My mom came over yesterday and just walked past her and she growled, but no tail wagging. I have found a book by Debbie Jacobs, A Guide To Living With & Training A Fearful Dog, very helpful. Check out fearfuldogs.com


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## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

Is he food motivated? If so, I would have strangers break high value treat (really yummy stuff) up into small pieces. Have them get on the floor and dish out treat after treat to him. Just a suggestion. Also, puppy classes may be good for socialization.


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## Ninja (Nov 1, 2010)

Thank you for the book recommendation I will look into it ASAP and the site. 

He is about to turn 1 is that too late for puppy classes?

I tried the treat once and he became afraid by my uncles wifes hand when she moved. Like he wants them to just sit still and smell them at first and they don't make things easier by trying to pet him. I tell them to leave him alone he will come to accept them and eventually he does but I am wondering if he will ever just be comfortable with them. 

Recently we had two furniture deliveries and he went insane at both men. He barked and barked the entire time and did not want to get near them at all. He was so scared but his fright comes and goes with each person. Could he be getting a bad vibe from certain people?


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## LuckyOne (Sep 3, 2009)

My dogs will bark and growl at people in our family. Usually when they are surprised by someone coming down the hall or if we carry something they don't recognize. But their tails are wagging and then they growl and play with each other. ? My two were taken everywhere with us. They even went camping when they had only been with us for a week. They didn't bark at anything or anyone including other dogs but now it's another story. They like to go to the groomer and they enjoy their vet visits. I can't figure it out.


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## Lizzie'sMom (Oct 13, 2010)

I don't really have any advice for you as Lizzie loves people. She is afraid of other dogs. Ninety percent of the dogs in our neighborhood are large ones. The reason I answered is that my vet said the same thing about taking the dog places to socialize her. I read a few other threads on here where people said the same thing. I am wondering why vets say this when early socialization is so important. I know we missed alot of opportunities for Lizzie as I was practically yelled at by the vet tech one day when I told her that we had taken her somewhere (don't remember where now). Good luck with Ninja.


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## GoldenLove (Dec 3, 2010)

I have come to realize it takes a lot of time and patience working with a fearful/shy dog, mine is also a fearful biter 

I dont believe he is too old for puppy class but depending on how shy/fearful he is you may have to take that class more than once before ever moving on. Also you may want to see if you can bring your dog to one class without signing up just to see how he reacts. Young socialization is great but for an older unsocialized dog you want to be careful, you dont want to cause flooding.

_Flooding: By forcing a dog to deal with something that scares it, you are using 'flooding' as a technique to try to get them to get over their fears. The problem with this is that it often doesn't work the way you want it to. A dog may get over their fear of something, but they can instead become sensitized to the thing they fear or merely habituated to it. Even worse in my mind is that the dog looses trust in you. The best way to train a scared dog is to help it learn how to control its world without behaving in a fearful or aggressive way. Flooding teaches many scared dogs that their only way out of a bad situation is to shut down._ http://fearfuldogs.com/key-concepts-of-training-fearful-dogs/

Every dog is different, what works for one may not work for another. I alway thought tail wagging was happy but from my research that is a common misconception

http://www.wagntrain.com/BodyLanguage.htm

These are just some of the sites I have gone to in order to have a better understanding of my dogs behavior. Hope it helps.


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## hutsonshouse (Oct 14, 2010)

I got my two havs when they were almost two years old. Even though the breeder said they were socialized - they were very fearful of every thing except each other! It took close to a year of working with them, but they have adjusted nicely. I did train them for company to keep them from barking so much when someone comes to the door. They are trained when I say "company" to back away from the door and be quite. If it is someone I don't know, or sales people, I don't give the command and they just bark away Even my grandkids have learned to come in saying "company" in order to calm them down
Good luck with the training. I don't think it is ever too late, just have to find the right motivation and be consistent!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ninja said:


> Thank you for the book recommendation I will look into it ASAP and the site.
> 
> He is about to turn 1 is that too late for puppy classes?
> 
> ...


You are telling you relatives EXACTLY the right thing. While I'm not a big Cesar fan, I do think he's absolutely right about first meeting dogs you don't know... "No touch, no talk, no eye contact" until the dog has relaxed, calmed down and approached them.

As far as a puppy class is concerned, yes, Ninja is probably too old. But many training places have "companion dog" classes for older dogs who need basic obedience training and socialization.


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## Pipersmom (Jul 27, 2009)

hutsonshouse said:


> I did train them for company to keep them from barking so much when someone comes to the door. They are trained when I say "company" to back away from the door and be quite. If it is someone I don't know, or sales people, I don't give the command and they just bark away Even my grandkids have learned to come in saying "company" in order to calm them down
> Good luck with the training. I don't think it is ever too late, just have to find the right motivation and be consistent!


What a great idea! I don't mind the barking when it's a stranger at the door but don't want her to do it to family/friends. I never considered that as a way to fix it.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Have you tried taking him to public places? I was reading up on how to get Zoey ready for showing and found a article about taking her to as many puplic places as possible One suggestion was Cosco parking lot just to get used to people.
My sisters dog reacts to house guests the same way ninja is and their trainer said to put him in time out. they put the dog in their powder room for about one to three minutes . This has been going on since last summer. I was their a week ago and their dog did bark but not nearly like he has in the past.
I would be hesitant to give a treat for bad behavior I would be more apt to give a treat if he comes out from time out and stopped barking. Like have the guest tell him to sit and get a treat.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Lumi, You can take Ninja to beginner obedience class. Some young dogs go through this phase. You need to distract him when people come over. Here are some suggestions: Practice door etiquette, you need a friend or family member to help you with this, try to practice for just 10 to 15 mins several times a day. You will do this first with Ninja on a leash. You will need high quality treats. Have the other person ring your bell once or twice go to the door with Ninja make him sit, if he is very excited gently put him is the sit position. Give him a small treat when he is sitting take your time to make for sure he is calmer (the first few times he may not calm down much) tell him wait and open the door and invite the person in. Have the person then offer Ninja a treat let Ninja take the treat, no petting, petting is down the road. The idea is to distract Ninja when he starts the barking. Another thing you can do is when Ninja starts barking at guests tell him no the minute he stops and I mean the minute give him a treat, keep giving him treats every time he stops the barking. 

Just because your dog reacts like this does not mean at this point he is shy or fearful. He most probably has not learned manners. These are skills we have to teach our pets. My Yogi came from a rescue at 7months after a few months he start the barking at people and not wanting to have them pet him. I started working with him and he loves everyone now. Sometimes he does do a woo woo with a new person. Yogi is a reactive dog not with people but often with other dogs. Reactivity is a challenge. My girl Misty is from a good breeder it is a show kennel meaning they have a number of breeding bitches so often they have puppies and it is hard to compete. So she has been a bit shy now she is finally going up to strangers and three nights ago she got in my father in law's lap. It just takes persistence and patience. A class will help you so much, it will help Ninja too. You will learn that many others have the same issues that you have and a good trainer will be able to give you several different ways to deal with a problem. Not coming from a good breeder does not make Ninja a bad dog. I am sure he is a wonderful boy.


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## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

I got Cassie when she was 2 and half. She was a foster that I couldn't part with. She was never well socialized. I took her to an obedience 1 class. I talked to the trainer and made sure that she was with a group of dogs and people that were appropriate for her. There was another dog in her class that was a puppy mill rescue and was terrified. She did much better as time went on as did Cassie. The class really wasn't about the training for Cassie, but more the socialization. I would recommend that if you can find something appropriate in your area.

I also recommend treats, but they need to be good and the people dishing out need to be still and let him come to them. It takes time and patience, but certainly can be worked on. I think you have some great ideas from others here as well!


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## Ninja (Nov 1, 2010)

All of this advice is so great  

Right now I'm going to look into obedience classes. I found one place called smarty paws dog training and I am going to call and ask for prices on there classes. I'm also going to practice door etiquette like Robbie suggested. I'm going to practice with a relative of mine who lives very close. 

One thing I am scared of is over whelming him with the classes. When I took him to the dog park it took a while before his tail went from being down to up but whenever we got there he just wanted to walk and didn't want to stop and smell the grass. I felt like he just wanted to get the walk over with and was rushing. I think the classes will help greatly with socialization but am worried about "flooding." I never even knew about that until yesterday. I don't want to force him into a situation that might frighten him more. 

He knows basic commands like sit, down, paw but whenever he barks at company he will not redirect his attention to me at all. It's like he's in his 'zone' and will not snap out of it. I understand because I would be completely freaked out if there was a stranger in my house also.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Lumi. When trying to distract your dog you must take a high quality treat (hot dog, smelly cheese, chicken) you put this right under his noise yo lure him to focus on the treat. Dogs are not multi taskers, they focus on one thing at a time. As time goes on you will have an easier time distracting him and his brain will associate vistor's with yummy food and good things. As "flooding" you do not have to worry about that in obedience class. The dogs do not play with each other people are ask to keep a respectful bubble. The dogs are learning to tolerate each other and believe me they do watch the other dogs although some very subtly. Although I can suggest helpful things for Ninja actual seeing them in practice and watching the techniques used can be very helpful. I really believe in books, however most dogs are not fearful or aggressive...Yes, some are, but many dogs have bad behavior due to lack of training. My dog Yogi is reactive to other dogs (not in the home and not all dogs) he use to bark like a fool raise up on two legs and his eyes would get as big as dinner plates. Today after much work including classes, walking in public places, and homework in every room in the house, he can walk confidently past most dogs. Wed we started another class there are 9 other dogs in that class, we often due off leash exercises (not the whole time) Yogi did well only barked once, however before bed I had to wash his derriere as he must have been very nervous in class. He trusted me enough to have performed better then I expected.

I will give you an example of "flooding" that can happen in everyday life: You take your dog or puppy to the groomer they are always held my an arm on the groomer table, the dog is a bit nervous with noises, the groomer is using a blow dryer on the dog, the dog starts bucking trying to pull away can't go anywhere, so then starts whining only the groomer has a lot of work so she just keeps blowing away. Sometimes the dog will be ok after a minute some dogs will just shut down. Does the groomer see this as 'flooding' no this would not occur to most people. 

I think you do not have to worry about this at this point in time.


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## Ninja (Nov 1, 2010)

Thanks Robbie now I understand flooding better. I'm also looking into books and found one called The Cautious Canine by Patricia McConnell. It has a lot of good reviews and I'm going to order it on the kindle. Classes are looking kind of expensive but I really want to do it so I'm going to save up. Thanks for all of the advice this far I really appreciate it!!


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Lumi, Since you have Kindle you can explore some of the older basic dog books at your local library they are free. Patricia Mc Connell is one of my favorites you might try "The Other end of the Leash' it is a newer book by her. Do remember that many of the dogs she talks about are extreme cases. So don't be too worried that Ninja is in that condition.

Something unrelated to this topic that I meant to tell you and never got around to it. When you had Ninja neutered you talked about your family. I was married for 21 yrs to an Indian and lived in a joint family (I lived at that time in my life between Bombay and California) they were very conservative, they were Malwari's, I lived and followed their rules in India. That being said, I am not Indian and a little more worldly educated. I had a Shih Tzu, Mr Singh he traveled back and forth with me. I had him neutered at 10 because in India there are a lot of stray dogs and since so many people come in and out of the house, I wanted to make for sure he didn't go a wandering. The elders in the household were very upset they said things like "unnatural", "his manhood" etc. For years in India one of my brother in-law's would pick him up, hold him over his head looking you know where in a room of people, make a unpleasent sound and all of the older woman in the room would click their tongue's and shake their heads at the sametime. My nieces and nephews all still tell the story and laugh about it today


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## Ninja (Nov 1, 2010)

LOL Robbie I can just picture that ound: poor Mr. Singh was probably so confused at what was going on. My grandfather was born in Montenegro, in Europe formally known as Yugoslavia. So were my parents and they didn't understand why I wanted to go through with it. My grandfather was the most hurt he kept saying in my country we never do this. I just said, that's why the overpopulation of animals over there is so bad. When I went to visit, every block had either a stray dog or cat looking for food in the streets. So upsetting 

My father paid for the procedure since I'm an unemployed college student. I told him it was going to benefit him in the future. He said if you believe it is best then I'll support you. They all felt so bad for him when he came home but now thank goodness it's over with. They think that vets try to just steal money out of you like some doctors out there. 

This other vet I went to before was linked with the place my brother got Ninja from. It was a year plan of free shots and all you had to pay was medical waste fees. I knew this place was not a good one and they would never tell me if anything was truely wrong with Ninja because both places looked out for each other and they helped one another gain business. I stopped going there and my friend recommended a vet closer to my house which is now where I go. Needless to say I've been there a lot and have come home each time with pills for Ninja because he had a different health problem every month. One month it was a bad bad ear infection, then the kennel cough, then a stomach issue etc. Although I believe we got him with kennel cough and the 1st vet never mentioned it, but thats another story. Anyway we spent a lot trying to get him to good health and when I recently brought up the neutering they thought these doctors were just saying it had to be done in order to get more money. I had lots of great support on the forum which got me through it and everyone today is so happy it's over with.

Now I just have to slowly work on bringing up his confidence. Oh and they also laugh when I mention the classes lol they think it's not necessary


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Lumi, Your family can't help the way they think this is their experience. I am sure they are very proud of you and love you very much. I am very close with my family in India my husband died and I am remarried to an American like myself. I am still and always will be close with my Indian family. My nieces and nephews are very close to me and are very modern. It is a huge cultural trasition for many coming to America. Often they have all these notions, in my family they thought Americans were not close to their families and all the young woman, well won't go there. Over time much is learned. Your brother giving you Ninja he is a wonderful gift. Your family will come to accept the responsible decisions you make as long as you include them and yeah they may laugh. Remember your dad did go along with you. 

As for classes check the schedule at your local technical collage sometimes they have dog begining obedience or 4H for adults. The technicical collage here offers classes in spring it is a nominal fee. They have hores classes too those cost more $75.00 the classes are usually somewhere else like a park or for horses a riding stable. In the mean time read some books esp basic books and remember kindle down loads are free at most librarys.


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## Ninja (Nov 1, 2010)

Robbie, very sorry to hear about your husband. It is really great you are so close with your Indian family. 

I know everybody was born and raised during different times in different environments I never judge them for the way they think and I love them very much, I always will  Ninja is the most amazing gift I ever recieved and he has certainly brought the whole family closer which makes me very greatful.

Thank you so much for mentioning those classes I need to look into those tomorrow. Also the newest book by Patricia seems great. I read the first few pages and I am sold I'm going to order that tomorrow as well :biggrin1:


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## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

How about when visitors come you just pick up Ninja in a matter of fact way and let the visitor give him a tasty treat,then put Ninja down and just ignore any barking,then if he is silent let your visitor place another treat on the floor,don't expect Ninja to take it from their hand yet. Another way is to let your visitor on arrival put some very tasty and small treats down on the floor for Ninja to hoover up,by the time he has done that, he may not be so inclined to bark.There are lots of different ways to get around this common little problem, and if he sees you are calm and happy to receive your guests, he will gradually learn to trust them as he looks to you as his leader,and if you are happy with a situation then so should he be, but of course this all takes a little time and patience.Our dog Dizzie is fine with everyone now[he is 22 months old] and Nellie is getting much better,she just tends to go off and sit somewhere quietly when we have a house full of people, though she is more relaxed about it now,and she is 8 months old.


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## Ninja (Nov 1, 2010)

Thank you very good advice  my uncle visited again today but they brought along someone else and Ninja barked more at the new person this time. Nobody listened to me when I told them to ignore him but we eventually removed him from the room. We brought him to the downstairs apartment and I stayed downstairs with him until he settled down. Then he went back upstairs and was okay for a moment until they were getting up to leave then it set him off again. He jumped up at them while wagging his tail but still barking. My other cousins visited as well and he did not bark at her nor her husband. He only barked when the bell rang but thats normal for us. He sees them more often though so he's used to them.

We've been having visitors all week because my grandfather had surgery for his hernia so I'm sure all these people at once is stressing Ninja out as well. I think over time he will learn though I just need these relatives to listen when I tell them how to react but they all want to just pet him as soon as they enter. I have faith it'll get better


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

Lumi, Robbie is right about classes at tech schools but check other colleges, too. I worked in the Continuing Education Dept. at our local two-yr. college and I got a trainer to come give obedience classes once a week for six weeks for $65. So, please call around to a few places.


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## GoldenLove (Dec 3, 2010)

If you like to watch Its me or the Dog, Victoria Stiwell did a show with three Maltese that would bark like crazy anytime the door bell rang and she taught them the stop command..... worked for them, lol

I didn't mean to worry you about flooding...sorry... My dog has been fearful from day one and its something I worry about. It can be a bit overwhelming working with a shy/fearful dog. I had to take a break, but today I worked with the touch command and she did well 

Your dog may not necessarily be fearful. Shyness and timidity can develop as a young dog matures, therefore, obedience class would be great for the both of you. My first time attending a class with my Golden was at Pet Smart because trainers are very limited in my area. You were given great advice from everyone. Good Luck!


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## BosleyElvis (Jan 4, 2011)

I hope I can add some input. I tried to read all of the posts and everyone has great ideas. I too have a fearful Havanese. From what I have researched, a Havanese is one of those breeds prone to anxieties. They are intelligent and emotionally connected to their human family and become quite attached. Great little watch dogs hee hee. 
My little Bosley is two and half years old and was a fearful puppy. He too growls and barks at strange people. Even when they come into the house. He is highly motivated with tripe treats (I know, but he loves it) and it helps to get him out of that "zone" you talked about in Ninja. One thing I found interesting was if people came in through the garage, it was easier to address him and get his attention to calm down. He associates that garage people are safe and the front door is where strangers come in. He was not properly socialized as a puppy, but I recently enrolled him into agility classes. The first 6 classes, last fall, he loved it so much that he was able to be around other dogs. I thought things were going well, so I enrolled into 6 more classes (have completed 3 so far) and he is now displaying distress in class. He no longer has motivation and completely shuts down and tries to hide inside the tunnel . He was having so much fun in the previous class, so, I don't know what triggered this stress. I'm hoping to work through this, but don't want to push him either. The best thing is to monitor him closely in class. Bosley's signs of stress are heavy panting (sounds like hyperventilating), yawning and even rigorous tail wagging. Building up confidence is exactly what a fearful dog needs!


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## Ninja (Nov 1, 2010)

I found these obedience classes not too far from here which is for 8 weeks once a week at a price of $175. This is very afforable for me because some of the others I seen were around $300 for 6 classes and they were farther. The thing with these classes however is that they don't start until April so I would have to wait. 

Bosley's mom- it's interesting how you mention if people come in through the garage it's easier to calm him down. I noticed that if they come in through the backyard it's easier as well. I think the doorbell also plays a factor in his anxiety, I need to practice door etiquette. We have a crazy sounding doorbell that scares me also LOL it's like a 5 second christmas tune and changes with each ring. I don't no how to change it back to normal and it literally stays with the christmas tunes all year round ound:

I'm hoping after the obedience classes I can find some agility classes. I was thinking of also setting up some agility in my basement since it's very long and he has so much space to jump. Will that still build his confidence if we are at home practicing?


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## jillnors2 (Apr 12, 2007)

I adopted a fearful seven year old. She just became part of my family along with my other dog. She went everywhere with us, was (and still is) walked every day, went to obedience classes once a week, went to agility class-went to trials,etc, etc. She's very social now, just took some time.


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## Ninja (Nov 1, 2010)

I would LOVE to take him everywhere with me while I run errands but he is scared of car rides as well  When he was a pup I took him to parks every once in a while but he would shake terribly in the car and then kind of hurry through our walk. Whenever I drove home it was like he knew we were coming home and wouldn't shake on the way home. Only in the car going somewhere he is scared. I didn't want to associate car rides with vets or groomers but I think thats what he thinks now all the time. In the summer I used to take him to pick up my mom from work at night and he would shake in the car look out the windows frantically. I would love to take him everytime I go but I can't anymore because I'm scared his anxiety will get the best of him. Now whenever I walk somewhere I'll take him but I haven't really been walking places since it's been so so cold.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ninja said:


> I'm hoping after the obedience classes I can find some agility classes. I was thinking of also setting up some agility in my basement since it's very long and he has so much space to jump. Will that still build his confidence if we are at home practicing?


I wouldn't do agility on concrete, though... too hard on little joints. If you're going to set up agility equipment in the basement, make sure you get thick rubber matting first.


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## Ninja (Nov 1, 2010)

my basement has tiles, but your right I didn't even think it could be too hard thank you for pointing that out to me


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tiles still have concrete under them... still too hard. (and in the case of tile, probably too slippery as well)


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## BosleyElvis (Jan 4, 2011)

Ninja said:


> I found these obedience classes not too far from here which is for 8 weeks once a week at a price of $175. This is very afforable for me because some of the others I seen were around $300 for 6 classes and they were farther. The thing with these classes however is that they don't start until April so I would have to wait.
> 
> Bosley's mom- it's interesting how you mention if people come in through the garage it's easier to calm him down. I noticed that if they come in through the backyard it's easier as well. I think the doorbell also plays a factor in his anxiety, I need to practice door etiquette. We have a crazy sounding doorbell that scares me also LOL it's like a 5 second christmas tune and changes with each ring. I don't no how to change it back to normal and it literally stays with the christmas tunes all year round ound:
> 
> I'm hoping after the obedience classes I can find some agility classes. I was thinking of also setting up some agility in my basement since it's very long and he has so much space to jump. Will that still build his confidence if we are at home practicing?


I think that practicing at home would be great. It will build a bond between you and Ninja. I took Bosley today at a private lesson and he did GREAT . I was worried he got spooked and was anxious about the agility itself. However, the anxiety is about the other dogs in class. So, he had a great time going over the course on his own. He was able to associate that building as fun again and not scary. Since the classes don't start until April, you could try basic skills like sit, stay and down.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Lumi, Training is the best gift you can give Ninja. Training helps build confidence. It's really great you are training Ninja. Just remenber it takes patience and persistence you will need to do the same excercise many, many times. The door bell is kinda of a universal problem even people who do not have a door bell, let one ring on tv and their dogs will bark. I have two different bells one on the front door and one on the sunroom door. Just imagine three dogs running back and forth between the doors (the bells share the same ringer, the front is two rings, back one) now they have down where the people are, except when the ups man leaves a package and rings the sunroom twiceThey no longer bark unless I take too long to go to the door, then they come and get me and do a woo woo. Just keep practicing with a friend or relative. There are many things you can teach Ninja and you can use the treat as a lure as he starts doing them everytime you start giving a treat every few times

Both my Havs shake when we go in the car and rest when we go home. Yogi adds a whine when DH is in the car. If DH is not in the car he sits and shakes and when we stop to get out he does big time whining and then he's fine. I took Misty to her class tonight she shook all the way, when we got out of the car she heeled perfect and went inside. My two love going if they see me get out the stuff we take to class they both start jumping on my leg, dancing on their hind legs. I think with them it is excitement . You might start taking Ninja on small drives again. If you're going to do agility in the basement you might look in to those big rubber mates that come in colors and fit together like a puzzle sometimes you can find them at used childrens shops really reasonable, also you can buy a couple at a time. The house I use to practice agility with Yogi had this down. Do keep us posted about Ninja's progress.


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## Ninja (Nov 1, 2010)

He knows some of the basics like sit. I'm still working on stay because he'll move if I go too far...and he no's how to give a high 5 which is for my own personal enjoyment lol...also things like jump,down,leave it etc. 

Robbie- It's great you mentioned for me to take short rides with Ninja. That's a good idea and I'm going to do that starting tomorrow. I'll gradually increase the time every other day. I wanted to let you know I never knew dogs didn't multi-task until you mentioned it and a lot of Ninja's behavior is starting to make sense to me. I've been using treats to get him out of his "barking zone" and I know it's going to take lot's of time before I start to see some real progress but I think it's working great  Also when we got home from our walk we went inside and I left the front door half open. I dropped the leash on the floor but next to my foot just in case he was going to make a run for it and I had all of his attention on me. Such a small treat is doing WONDERS :biggrin1:

It really is going to take a lot of time and nothing is easy but I'm determined! Thanks everyone for so much help and advice it is really helping me.

I've also been reading old posts from people with shy and timid dogs and am learning a lot. This forum deserves an award lol


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## Dalmane (Oct 4, 2010)

My 6 month old hav Mia who has been renamed Whimpy by my sister is afraid of her own shadow. Noises startle her and she will growl then bark. This is my first small dog I have always had big dogs. One was a barker but rarely growled. It seem odd to me that a growl is the first response to an unknown sound rather than a bark. She settles down and stops growls pretty readily but hearing a dog growl in the dead of the night is disconserting.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Lumi, I play a game to get my dogs attention focused on me and you might try this every now and again for fun. Put a treat in each hand have Ninja sit , your going to hold those treats tightly in your hands down at your side, you say look each time he looks at you give him a piece of treat, at first he may noise your hand, or any number of things, don't give in until he looks at your face, after a time he will catch on, just remember the minute he looks up at you treat him. This is something I use for obedience to get my dogs to look and watch me. It worked too well with Misty she will following me around the house just looking at me all the timeLOL. She is a bit OCD. So great to hear your making a bit of progress with Ninja. Don't for get to praise as well as treat because someday praise will be next to a treat in your dogs favorites. Yes a small treat goes a long way.


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## jillnors2 (Apr 12, 2007)

Since your dog knows how to sit, can you practice having him sit when people are at the door and give him a smelly treat, it will refocus him.


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## Ninja (Nov 1, 2010)

The Laughing Magpie said:


> Lumi, I play a game to get my dogs attention focused on me and you might try this every now and again for fun. Put a treat in each hand have Ninja sit , your going to hold those treats tightly in your hands down at your side, you say look each time he looks at you give him a piece of treat, at first he may noise your hand, or any number of things, don't give in until he looks at your face, after a time he will catch on, just remember the minute he looks up at you treat him. This is something I use for obedience to get my dogs to look and watch me. It worked too well with Misty she will following me around the house just looking at me all the timeLOL. She is a bit OCD. So great to hear your making a bit of progress with Ninja. Don't for get to praise as well as treat because someday praise will be next to a treat in your dogs favorites. Yes a small treat goes a long way.


LOL that is funny about the OCD  I used to do the focus thing with Ninja when he was younger in fact, I don't no why I stopped. I used to do it right before I would throw a ball for him to fetch it. I'd get him to keep his eyes on my while I moved the ball/toy around and then I'd throw it and he'd run. I'm so upset I couldn't drive around in the car with him today cuz of the snow we've had. I will get out as soon as I can though. Today I took some of these little treats that he loves (Zukes Natural Mini Chicken Flavor) and put them in ziplocks bag to keep around the door and nearby. I am prepared for that bell to ring LOL

I was however wondering, how many treats should you give a dog? These treats are small and I STILL cut them in half because I don't want to go over board with the treats and make his tummy upset or have him not eat his dinner. Should I treat him with part of his dinner? When I taught him how to sit and stuff I always used his toys so am clueless on how many I should give.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Lumi, You give more treats when you first start training something new, as time goes on and they are doing well you try to decrease the amount, like one every 2x until it is given as a reward between exercises or after the session. Depending on what your doing you may not be over doing it. You can give a bit less food at dinner, you don't have to do that everynight, you can do it on days you feel you've used many treats. I always use very small treats so I can give many. Small treats with super high value. On class days (because I use more treats) I reduce the food of the dog that had class, I still give dinner, just less. Don't forget the praise, sometimes thats hard to remember on a day when it seems there was little cooperation.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ninja said:


> I was however wondering, how many treats should you give a dog? These treats are small and I STILL cut them in half because I don't want to go over board with the treats and make his tummy upset or have him not eat his dinner. Should I treat him with part of his dinner? When I taught him how to sit and stuff I always used his toys so am clueless on how many I should give.


Robbie answered most of this question. But when I use the Zuke's mini's... I'm even more stingy... I break mine into thirds.


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## destiny (Nov 26, 2010)

Hi,

Yes, you can absolutely take him to classes. If he is to old for puppy class take him to obedience class. Take him around lots of people, parks, pet shops, dog walks. I adopted a very fearful seven year old Labrador. I signed her up for obedience classes to build her confidence, bond with me and for socialization. I brought her to a nursing home each week along with my other dog who is a therapy dog. We went to dog parks, pet stores and dog swims and fundraisers. She earned her Canine Good Citizen and is a very happy, outgoing Labrador today. It took a good year to get her over her fearfulness, she is now eleven.

I brought home my nine week old Havanese puppy this summer, prior to his shots I took him everywhere I could that people go. In the pet shops I had him ride in the shopping cart so he would not pick up a disease from a dog.
I took him to puppy classes right away where all the puppies have proof of up to date shots. Socialization is very important just be somewhat cautious and remember it is never to late to socialize. Take your dog everywhere you can, bring treats, make sure meeting people and other dogs is a happy experience. You will soon find that your fearful dog is now a happy outgoing Hav.
Good Luck!


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## Ninja (Nov 1, 2010)

Thank you Destiny  It's great that the lab became over her fearfulness.

I've been emailing the trainer I mentioned and she asked what kind of dog I had. When I told her Havanese she said she has one too and many of her clients have Havanese's as well 

Anywho, I explained Ninja's situation and she said maybe private lessons would benefit me better because this way she can show me the proper way to react during specific situations. The only thing is private lessons are more expensive rather then the obedience classes. She said the obedience would be good if I want him to learn basic commands but his critical socialization period has long past but this doesn't mean I can't make improvements in his behavior. Then she said but it does mean he will likely always be shy around new people,places and things. That made me a little discouraged 

Regardless, I don't know what I should do. I can afford 2 private lessons for now but I feel like the obedience classes would be so much more worth my money because it goes on for 7 weeks. The trainer said I can do a combination of both but thats over my price range. What do you guys think I should go for?


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

I would do the two private lessons . She can teach you a lot in two sessions
How many minuets is one session?


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## Ninja (Nov 1, 2010)

One session is between 1hr to 1 hour and 15 minutes


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## Pipersmom (Jul 27, 2009)

When I took Piper to obedience class, I would always arrive early and hang around a little bit after to ask questions which the trainer encouraged. that way she got the benefit of both the class and one on one attention. I don't know if that's always the case with these classes though.

It's a tough decision, I think the classes will help with general socialization. Learning the commands will make Ninja more confident which will lead to less fear about things. He will also be exposed to a lot of strangers (the other dogs owners) at once and it may really help. If he's got specific behavioral issues you want to work on in your home then the private lessons may be more beneficial.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

That sounds like a good amount of time. You would have to be very motivated to practice what she teaches. The class situation would be fun for the socializing I hope more folks give you their thoughts because I have never been to a class yet but would like to soon.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Lumi, At this time I would not do the private lesson. They are expensive, and you do not know how well Ninja will do in a group. I have had some private lessons, I did not pay for these, I paid for a group lessons and others dropped out (our classes are hard not for the dog, we are held accountable). Yogi was burntout 40 mins latter. I work with my dogs about 45mins most days, I split up the time and do 10 to 15 mins. at a time and I do one dog at a time. My trainer gives private lessons but has told me I do not need them at this point.


This is just my suggestion and I will tell you why. Private lessons are expensive and I feel they should be for one thing you are trying to achieve and are unable after trying many times. Private lessions are also good for people who because of a heavy work load/child issue/spend sometime with spouse issues can save time. You are willing to work with your boy, you need to make your dollars go as far as possible. I think (this is just my thought) that group lessons will help you develope a skill set. It will also help you will see others having the same issues and the trainer will be able to give several ways of coping. I find with my own dogs once I see another dog do the lesson and understand what they need to do, with more then one way of teaching them, I am there it just takes time doing it over and over. At this time neither of my dogs could benefit from a private lession, I know this and my trainer has also said so.

Since its winter and you have a bit of time, look for a training club that you can join. Some of the clubs will let you trade work for a discount in lessons, you will have to prove you really are working with Ninja. You are going to have Ninja for many years, she maybe your future childs first dog. Plan ahead go slow and make every dollar count! 

A word of warning: some trainers are great sales people. Ask if they have any titled dogs or if any of their dogs can do theapy.


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## destiny (Nov 26, 2010)

I just have to say Kudos to you for working so hard to do right by your dog. I wish all dogs had owners like you and I know here on the forum our Havanese are lucky to have so many great owners.

I would go for the group obedience since you want to address fear issues, I think socialization is what you need to focus on and exposure to various people and dogs. Your dog may never be an extrovert, but with work the fearfulness will diminish. Be patient, you are doing a great job!!!!


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## Ninja (Nov 1, 2010)

Today, even though it was very messy and cold outside I was determined to take Ninja out for a short walk. Instead of walking up the block where it's quiet I decided to take a trip towards the busy area down the block and see how he would react. He is always scared so I usually take it slow with him. Well when I took him his tail was not down at ALL and he was happily walking. I even saw some bounce in his step and it looked like he may have had a little confidence which to me is a huge step. He was always terrified of the noises espicially trucks and when a huge truck passed by I was able to still get him walking and I praised him the entire timee!! We weren't out for long and I wish I could have walked a little farther but it is so cold and messy. 

Another bit of good news, he usually doesn't like to walk when people are passing by on the same sidewalk. Sometimes he'll jump at them or bark. I read online that it is better to keep a loose leash because when I hold the leash tight it may stress him out. Today I remained completely calm and so did he. I was soo impressed with him and I didn't even think about loosening up the leash. People were everywhere cleaning and walking by and it was like he was a different dog from one little movement on my part. I also read in that same article that when a dog see's someone outside they may jump because they want to greet the person. I always thought of it as he didn't like people and wanted to bite them or something. I feel like today was a better positive walking experience then any other day and I hope it continues!!

I haven't been able to have any friends over to practice his behavior indoors but I still work with him anytime the bell rings. Anytime our UPS guy delivers something, which is almost every day, I'm able to successfully quite Ninja down. Then again, the ups guy never comes inside so I know it's a different issue when people enter the house. Everyone is busy and has their own stuff going on so that's why it's been a little difficult trying to find a friend who'd work with me. Hopefully someone's schedule clears up soon. 

Thank you Robbie for mentioning the training club. I googled it and found one about 40 minutes from my house. On there website it did mention volunteering and getting half price off training so it's definitely something to look into. I plan on going to the no kill shelter near my house on Friday and volunteering to help out once a week since I'm unemployed. I feel like the experience will help me learn a lot and I know this place will have good recommendations as well because they've been able to transform dog behaviors successfully! 

I'm also going to contact the trainer and tell her I'm deciding on the group classes. In one of the earlier emails she sent me a schedule of her new group classes and this year they are starting the first Saturday in March. The only reason she likes to start in April is because she likes to do it outdoors but she said this year the March classes will be indoors unless it is nice enough to go out and the class is going to be small, around 5 people. 

Thanks for helping decide on the group classes ladies  I think it would be a better decision as well!!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

YAY!!! GO NINJA!!!!! So glad to hear he is doing SO well!!


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Good for you!!!!! I use to get so up tight about Yogi's bad behavior, then when I went on vaction I took a ton of Patrica Mc Connell books and realized I had to remain calm if I wanted Yogi calm. You'll have fun in class and Ninja will like it too. My guys love to go to class.


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## Ninja (Nov 1, 2010)

Thats great. I hope Ninja enjoys the classes too.

Ugh such a horrible thing happened today. I was going to go out for another positive short walk today and decided to head down to the busy block again. As I was heading down the hill, I carefully and slowly walked over a patch of ice but I guess there was more ice that I didnt see and I slipped and fell. Luckily at that point, I held the leash tight and Ninja came over to me to see what happened. Thats not the bad part...I picked myself back up and saw all this ice down the hill so I realized it wasn't safe. Someone didn't do a good job at cleaning there part of the sidewalk so I headed back up and Ninja decided he wanted to run ahead of me which I was not prepared for and the leash slipped off my hand. I guess he thought I was holding it and I ran quickly after him. Then he stopped at the top of the block and looked at me and realized I wasn't holding the leash anymore and crossed the street to play "catch me if you can." He went on the other side of the sidewalk and was heading towards the house and I couldnt chase him fast because of other ice on the floor. It was so terrifying plus there were all these cars around I was freaking out. Then I stopped and he did and saw me and I then pretended I was running away from him and he ran all the way up to me and I grabbed the leash. That was the end of todays walk. Not so much of a walk but more of a heart attack moment!!


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Lumi, You had quite a day. I hate ice. I never go out in ice. Ice scares me. I am so glad to hear things turned out ok. When we panic our dogs pick up on it, but often they think the excitement is about play. Good for you for wiping away the foggy panic and making a plan and doing it. Yay!!!!! Maybe until the ice goes away you should practice sit stays or impulse control so you're both are out of harms way. Hope you are all in one piece and happy to hear Ninja is safe at home.


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## Ninja (Nov 1, 2010)

Yes it was a pretty rough day to begin with. At least I didn't get badly hurt just a tiny scrape but I was more so worried about Ninja being in danger. As for staying, I certainly need more work with it which I hope the obedience classes will help with. I contacted the trainer today and theres an early bird special for registration with a 10% discount if you register early. Sounds good to me lol!!


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

Lumi, I'm so glad to hear that you and Ninja came out of that scary episode all in one piece. Remembering to run toward home or safety really works - I've had to try it myself!!!


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## LuckyOne (Sep 3, 2009)

Ninja said:


> Thats great. I hope Ninja enjoys the classes too.
> 
> Ugh such a horrible thing happened today. I was going to go out for another positive short walk today and decided to head down to the busy block again. As I was heading down the hill, I carefully and slowly walked over a patch of ice but I guess there was more ice that I didnt see and I slipped and fell. Luckily at that point, I held the leash tight and Ninja came over to me to see what happened. Thats not the bad part...I picked myself back up and saw all this ice down the hill so I realized it wasn't safe. Someone didn't do a good job at cleaning there part of the sidewalk so I headed back up and Ninja decided he wanted to run ahead of me which I was not prepared for and the leash slipped off my hand. I guess he thought I was holding it and I ran quickly after him. Then he stopped at the top of the block and looked at me and realized I wasn't holding the leash anymore and crossed the street to play "catch me if you can." He went on the other side of the sidewalk and was heading towards the house and I couldnt chase him fast because of other ice on the floor. It was so terrifying plus there were all these cars around I was freaking out. Then I stopped and he did and saw me and I then pretended I was running away from him and he ran all the way up to me and I grabbed the leash. That was the end of todays walk. Not so much of a walk but more of a heart attack moment!!


Oh my!!! This would totally freak me out! Glad your alright and so is Ninja! I have learned from this forum that if your pup gets away, to drop to your knees and get really excited. Hope I never have to use that advice. My heart stopped when I read what happened to you.


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## Pipersmom (Jul 27, 2009)

That's the hardest thing to do because every instinct is telling you to do the opposite, especially when there are cars around. Good for you for doing the right thing! Piper got away from me in a parking lot once and I was so afraid to run in the opposite direction but it really does work. (I think it helps that I was yelling "Cookies!" as I was running)


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Pipersmom said:


> That's the hardest thing to do because every instinct is telling you to do the opposite, especially when there are cars around. Good for you for doing the right thing! Piper got away from me in a parking lot once and I was so afraid to run in the opposite direction but it really does work. (I think it helps that I was yelling "Cookies!" as I was running)


 That was really clever of you to yell cookies!
Having a dog get away from you is a very scary feeling . I am so glad nothing happened and I am sorry you fell. I hate ice


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## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

I had a very similar thing happen with Nellie, I was out walking them a week or two before Christmas and it was very ice, when all of a sudden a dog flew out of it's house off leash, and barked loudly at Nellie, Dizzie and myself, well it made us jump and I slipped over on the ice,and Nellie raced of with her extendable leash banging and crashing after which only served to frighten her all the more,well luckily I still had hold of Dizzie,and although I was terrified as she raced into the road and skidded on the ice,I managed to keep calm and give her the come here whistle,as she was tearing all over the place with the darn lead banging and crashing after her, and I couldn't run anywhere as the ice was so bad, fortunately there was no traffic about and Nellie stopped in fear because of the lead and I was able to grab hold of it.Well that was the end of what had been a very pleasant walk until everything went pear shaped.I got home in a state of shock,but fortunately the pups were non the worse for their adventure.


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## Ninja (Nov 1, 2010)

clare said:


> I had a very similar thing happen with Nellie, I was out walking them a week or two before Christmas and it was very ice, when all of a sudden a dog flew out of it's house off leash, and barked loudly at Nellie, Dizzie and myself, well it made us jump and I slipped over on the ice,and Nellie raced of with her extendable leash banging and crashing after which only served to frighten her all the more,well luckily I still had hold of Dizzie,and although I was terrified as she raced into the road and skidded on the ice,I managed to keep calm and give her the come here whistle,as she was tearing all over the place with the darn lead banging and crashing after her, and I couldn't run anywhere as the ice was so bad, fortunately there was no traffic about and Nellie stopped in fear because of the lead and I was able to grab hold of it.Well that was the end of what had been a very pleasant walk until everything went pear shaped.I got home in a state of shock,but fortunately the pups were non the worse for their adventure.


OH MY!! It is so scary when they get away from us. Thank goodness there were no cars around!!!

Thanks everyone for the kind words.


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## Ninja (Nov 1, 2010)

Just an update- Today was the obedience class and I have to say overall, it went better then I thought it would. It's a small class of 5 dogs including Ninja. For the first 20 minutes though, he was very scared. He would not take a treat from anyone in the room INCLUDING me. Not even chicken...he kept looking around for a door and wanted to escape any chance he got :bolt: 

After those rough 20 minutes, he actually started listening to what I was telling him to do and eating the chicken treats :clap2: He even let someone else tell him to sit and give him a treat which was huge for me when I saw this considering how scared he was when we got there. The trainer started throwing treats around him and at first he would not take them but he eventually warmed up. His tail was still down but he was slowly making progress. By the end of the class he was listening to everything I was asking him to do. Still nervous, but was making progress. At the end she let all the dogs play off leash for as long as we wanted to. Ninja actually played once I took him off the leash. There is this very outgoing cavalier bichon mix who is so friendly and Ninja and her were playing running around everywhere. His tail was even up at this point. He kept chasing her and having a blast. I LOVED IT!! Everyone in the class noticed how different he was just in those short 2 hours. The trainer mentioned she thinks he is going to get really comfortable with this group but will still be shy around new dogs. I'm still very happy with today's experience and Ninja had a great nap when we got home :whoo:

This is just the beginning, but I think he'll make serious progress throughout the sessions.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Yay, for you and Ninja!!!!! When a dog will not take treats it often means their stressed. Misty use to be so stressed and scared she would hide behind me (she was afraid of humans) as time went on she got better. She did Beginners class twice. I am so happy it sounds like it is going to work out well for you both. This will help stengthen your bond with Ninja even more.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

WOoo-hOOOOOoooooooo, GO Ninja!!!


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## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

This is great Ninja will be fine in the fullness of time.


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

Fantastic! I'm so glad to hear she made so much progress in just the first class. It's nice, too, that she is in a small group.


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## Ninja (Nov 1, 2010)

Another update- Ninja gradutated from obedience class!!! 

Unfortunately, he did not get to graduate with the class we started with. I missed the morning class and called the trainer. She had another graduation class the following day and told me I was welcome to come which I did. It was a class of all big dogs and he was still able to listen to me. He feels very safe at the trainer's place, he completely trusts the area. He did not shake after about the 3rd class and even made a best friend lol he played with one of the pups so much.


He still has a lot of shy issues which I'm realizing I will have to condition him too, but I'm still so proud. The trainer is interested in starting a shy dog class for about 5 sessions and she will show me and other clients how to expose our dogs to new environments in a positive way. I told her I would certainly be interested and to keep me posted.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

I knew you could do it!!!! Congrats to both of you. It takes a lot of work to bring a shy dog around, the pay off in the end is so worth it. This news made my day.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

That is great!:whoo:
I found a great place to socialize the sisters. They are both shy and have started barking a lot. Near my new house is a very large garden center I called first and asked if I could bring my pup's while I shopped they said sure. Being one of the first sunny days around here their were lots of people and other dogs. I brought the sisters and they did great around people but barked at other dogs. I was able to do what we were taught about barking. I take their collar and shack it and say no.
Zoey has had 5 puppy classes and still has not played with any of the other 3 very large puppys. Last week she sat behind a line as if to say don't cross or else! I wounder if the class had another toy breed if she would play?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

That's fantastic, Lumi! You and Ninja have come a long way. Keep up the good work!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> That is great!:whoo:
> I found a great place to socialize the sisters. They are both shy and have started barking a lot. Near my new house is a very large garden center I called first and asked if I could bring my pup's while I shopped they said sure. Being one of the first sunny days around here their were lots of people and other dogs. I brought the sisters and they did great around people but barked at other dogs. I was able to do what we were taught about barking. I take their collar and shack it and say no.
> Zoey has had 5 puppy classes and still has not played with any of the other 3 very large puppys. Last week she sat behind a line as if to say don't cross or else! I wounder if the class had another toy breed if she would play?


Hi Suzi, shaking your dogs' collars and telling them not to bark may inhibit their barking, but it won't do ANYTHING to get them to enjoy other dogs or learn proper dog socialization. As you've known from the beginning, you chose to wait until after the most effective period to instill good social skills, so now, if it's important to you, it's going to take longer, and be a lot more work. Otherwise, you'll spend the rest of your life managing their behavior rather than being able to relax and enjoy their time around other dogs. (and a little barky dog can get herself in BIG trouble with a big dog who takes exception to that behavior!)

The best way to do it is with lots and lots and LOTS of unrestrained play with other dogs of all shapes and sizes. As you guessed, it may be easier to start with other small, non-intimidating dogs before you move on to bigger breeds, and you should never put your pups in danger by allowing them to play with larger dogs that you are not SURE know how to play safely with little dogs. But it has to be FREQUENT and repeated many times.

It doesn't help if they are on-leash, which, I assume, is what happens at your garden center. Restrained dogs don't act the same as loose dogs. They are MUCH more likely to bark, lunge and act aggressive if they are on leash.

A lot of training centers have casual, supervised playgroups. Maybe yours does. This is a great place to socialize your pups. If not, try to find a safe dog park, hopefully with a small dog section, and use that for socialization.

As far as on-leash behavior is concerned, instead of tugging their leashes or other aversive techniques, instead, ask them to sit quietly. get their attention on you. (of course you need to practice this A LOT at home first!!!) When they are quiet and looking at you, click or say your marker word, (I say, "Yesss!") and give them a cookie. That way you are slowly building value in behaving civilly when near another dog. You should start doing this work with just one at a time, and make sure it's pretty well established before trying it with both together... They are liable to rile each other up otherwise.

Good social skills in dogs take work to establish, and maintaining them is something you have to continue working on for the life of the dog.


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## Ninja (Nov 1, 2010)

Thank you everyone for all the faith and kind words  PLus all the advice I have received on this thread. I was encouraged by my forum friends to push with the training classes and I'm glad I did.

Suzi- Karen is right about the on leash aggression. They feel restrained which is why they might act out more. I told my trainer about Ninja barking more on walks and she said to first start off with a reward marker like "AH-AH" or "UH oh" and walk the opposite way. Then, walk back towards the object they barked at and if they bark again do the same thing again. I've done this and I have to say it works. She said also to try and start just giving treats as they see other dogs or people walk by this way they can associate people or dogs with treat and try to get them to look at you. I hope I helped


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

krandall said:


> Hi Suzi, shaking your dogs' collars and telling them not to bark may inhibit their barking, but it won't do ANYTHING to get them to enjoy other dogs or learn proper dog socialization. As you've known from the beginning, you chose to wait until after the most effective period to instill good social skills, so now, if it's important to you, it's going to take longer, and be a lot more work. Otherwise, you'll spend the rest of your life managing their behavior rather than being able to relax and enjoy their time around other dogs. (and a little barky dog can get herself in BIG trouble with a big dog who takes exception to that behavior!)
> 
> The best way to do it is with lots and lots and LOTS of unrestrained play with other dogs of all shapes and sizes. As you guessed, it may be easier to start with other small, non-intimidating dogs before you move on to bigger breeds, and you should never put your pups in danger by allowing them to play with larger dogs that you are not SURE know how to play safely with little dogs. But it has to be FREQUENT and repeated many times.
> 
> ...


 It gets confusing because I have two different classes and both trainers are telling me to be more forceful with the barking. I like what you are saying better. Zoey has only made one other friend besides Maddie and she met him from the first week I got her. It was not in tell I took care of him for a few days that she wormed up. She is on the verge of playing with other dogs. Last night a my show class she sniffed at the dog next to me in line. The owner got mad because we were suppose to be practicing for a show. I thought today I should have asked if she would stay after class so Zoey could explore and finish what she was wanting to do.
It has been a long wet winter and now that the weather seems better I will take them to a dog park to meet more dogs. 
I did tell Zoeys teacher about the garden center and she said the something about taking them one at a time. I think the more aggressive training was because Zoey was being a bit mean. We were taught not to use the word no unless it was very important. After 4 weeks of class she told me to use no for barking.


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

Lumi and Ninja, congratulations on finishing obedience school! That is a great accomplishment for Ninja. It sounds like she is well on her way and that you are really working hard to do all the right things.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> It gets confusing because I have two different classes and both trainers are telling me to be more forceful with the barking. I like what you are saying better. Zoey has only made one other friend besides Maddie and she met him from the first week I got her. It was not in tell I took care of him for a few days that she wormed up. She is on the verge of playing with other dogs. Last night a my show class she sniffed at the dog next to me in line. The owner got mad because we were suppose to be practicing for a show. I thought today I should have asked if she would stay after class so Zoey could explore and finish what she was wanting to do.
> It has been a long wet winter and now that the weather seems better I will take them to a dog park to meet more dogs.
> I did tell Zoeys teacher about the garden center and she said the something about taking them one at a time. I think the more aggressive training was because Zoey was being a bit mean. We were taught not to use the word no unless it was very important. After 4 weeks of class she told me to use no for barking.


This is why it is so important to get puppies into classes early. The current recommendations are that puppies meet at least one new dog and one new person daily. That's not impossible to do without the structure of classes, but it makes it harder.

Likewise, while it's not impossible to get two puppies at the same time and give EACH the INDIVIDUAL training they need, it sure is easier to be able to concentrate on one, then add a second when the first is confirmed in at least the basics.

As far as the other woman and dog in your conformation class are concerned, there is a difference between a puppy class, which is for socialization, and a training class, where handlers are expected to have control of their dogs, be paying attention to the instructor and working with their dogs. Your conformation class isn't the place to be socializing Zoey. (if the other woman is willing to get together with you outside of class, that's fine!)

Finally, as far as your trainers are concerned, in the end, they are your dogs and it's your responsibility to decide what's right for them. I don't see how telling them "no!" and yanking their collars is going to do anything to improve their social skills, and it sounds like it is BECAUSE of their poor social skills that they are barking.

You have to look at each instance where they tend to bark and figure out what is causing it before you know how to approach the problem.

When Kodi was younger, I had a terrible problem with him barking his head off during classes. We tried the "usual" things of standing on the leash and ignoring him, turning my back to him, trying to click/treat any time he was quiet... You name it. W even tried leaving the ring completely every time he started barking. (we spent several weeks with more time out of the ring than in!!!) Unfortunately, barking can be one of those things that is self-rewarding, and that's where things were heading with Kodi.

We finally found that the only way to break the cycle was to put him in his crate (which is NOT a punishment... He loves his crate) every time we were not actively working. (he only started barking any time we were standing still, either listening to the instructor or waiting our turn for an individual exercise). So, for several months, that's what we did. If he wasn't actively working, he was in the crate. I also stopped group lessons for a while, so that he didn't have the frustration of so much wait time. When we started doing groups again, I started with a different instructor, even though it's the same training center, who keeps things more lively, with less down-time. Over time, his in-class barking has COMPLETELY disappeared, and I never once had to get rough with him.

Could I have stopped his barking by yanking him around? Quite possibly. But I won't take a chance on spoiling our working relationship, when I am counting on him to perform brilliantly for me. Brilliance comes from a dog who thinks "working" with you is the most fun he or she can have in life!


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