# Neutering/Zeutering/Timing Q's?



## FourPaws (Sep 24, 2012)

Hi Hav Fans: A few q's about neutering...
1. Timing: our little clown is nine months. reasonably house-trained but a frequent sprayer outdoors and last night he tried to hump a male Golden Retriever who outweighed him by a good 70 pounds. (Pretty funny at the time but...yeesh). The breeder had asked us wait a year, saying he needed all the hormone flow for his bones/growth plates (or something like that). The vet said six months, b/c spraying etc is hard to break afterwards. Advice?

2)Has anyone heard about Zeuterin? Approved by the FDA; it's an injection that shrinks testicles, no anesthesia, much less invasive. No "castration" and it allows some testosterone to keep flowing. Used by increasing numbers of nonprofit clinics and a few vets (many vets are suspicious of it,plus they also have lucrative surgeries set up already). I am apprehensive but...?

3)How much careful watching does the Clown need post-surgery? For how long? Did y'all use the Elizabethan collars or not necessary? What impact does the surgery have on his behavior, short-term, long-term?

4)Cost. I was stunned. Petco which transports dogs to nonprofit clinic: $137; one local vet, initial visit , $40 plus about $200 for procedure; another vet, $53 for visit plus $340 for procedure and our vet? OMG. $640. Really? Really? But as crazyexpensive as she is--and highly regarded--I wonder whether we should suck it up and pay, because what if something goes wrong? Or is that likely?

Advice, folks??? thanks so much...FourPaws


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

As background I tend to be on the holistic side. I follow Jean Dodds and my other dog, a labrador, has had very few shots, we use titers when possible. I am also somewhat paranoid when it comes to my dogs. 

I just had my hav neutered at eight months. I was going to wait a year but there is a facility where I like to board my other dog and they require it. Also his adult teeth were in and he had a couple of baby teeth hanging around that seemed fairly ingrained and he kept getting food stuck. It was time to get the baby teeth pulled to keep the dental issues from forming. 

I did conventional procedure at a conventional vet. I paid around $100. they didnt charge to pull the baby teeth. I used a fabric e-collar for recovery when I couldnt watch him. 

My hav's procedure - as was my lab's - was very uneventful. The biggest problem I had was keeping my hav quiet post surgery. I have a high energy hav. His behavior is the same as before the procedure. You can always opt out of the procedure - lots of people dont neuter their dogs all over the world.

I have not heard of the drug you mention, but I would use caution with any hormone. I also think you're getting screwed on the price. Something can go wrong at any vet but this procedure gets done a zillion times a week.

Right before my dog's procedure a friend had her poodle neutered. She took him to the low cost spay and neuter because she was so ticked off at the $500 quote from her vet! Her dog did just fine too.

Good luck with your decision!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I got this info from Ian Dunbar . ..."Neutering male dogs DOES change their behavior to some extent. They are likely to roam less (if given free range) and urinate less, yet still urine mark and still use the same urination posture. Thus, scent marking is not resolved, but the frequency (hence volume of urine) is much less.�


However, castration has no effect on dog-human aggression, does not make male dogs less aggressive to other dogs, alter their rank in the hierarchy, or appear to change their personality much. BUT castrated male dogs no longer smell like intact males and so this dramatically changes the behavior of other male dogs.�Castrated male dogs smell more like anoestrous females.�Other male dogs react towards castrated males as if they are females �and so, other male dogs harass or threaten them less and hence, the behavior of the castrated male eventually changes (feeling less threatened). Castrated male dogs are involved in fewer fights with other males and their aggressiveness is reduced, not directly by castration, but indirectly by the altered behavior of other males.


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## FourPaws (Sep 24, 2012)

Thank you for your prompt and thoughtful reply. I am quite anxious about new treatments, injections as well, but then I think about anesthesia?? Nonetheless, I think I'll go traditional route.
You paid $100? Wow. What part of the country do you live in? I'm in Northern Jersey. When I asked the receptionist at my--admittedly fabulous--vet why she charged so much, she just cut me off with, "Because that's what the doctor charges." Gulp.

Apparently she also schedules a follow-up appointment at 14 days to "remove stitches." (Though that visit is included in the price.) Don't most vets/clinics used disintegrating stitches?

Our Clown is super high-energy as well. When you weren't at home to monitor him, did you crate him? How long did it take for him to stop trying to scratch at the incision? Did his energy or "personality" change after the procedure?

I'm just trying to figure out, roughly, what to be prepared for and how to best prepare our schedule to keep him comfortable...thank you for replying!


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## RoutineAvocado (Feb 6, 2013)

For what it's worth: I have a girl pup who isn't spayed yet (only 4 months old) but we talked about timing a lot with our vet. There is basically no science to back up the claim that you need a wait a year for hormones to help with development. It's an idea a lot of people have because it sounds like it makes sense but there's no data to back it up or a consensus in the scientific community. For girls, he prefers to spay before their first heat around 6 months because it's a slighter easier procedure (first heat creates extra tissue that's harder to work around) and they can bounce back a little easier when they're younger. The procedure for boys is probably the same at any age.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## FourPaws (Sep 24, 2012)

Thank you, too, Avocado and Dave: this is all excellent and eye-opening info! I love this incredibly helpful, generous forum.


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## mack (Jul 2, 2013)

Hello...I just wanted to add I felt just as anxious as you this past Ftiday when I had Mack neutered. He is five months old. He was fine. He cried a little the first night. .but was easily consolable. I opted to buy extra pain meds just in case. I gave him the medicine yesterday morning. .not because he exhitbited any signs of pain...but more for me to reassure myself that he wasn't in pain. The vet wants him to take it easy for a week. ..but try telling Mack that. Yoday je is back to his normal self. We didn't have to use our ecollar..as Mack has shown no interest in exploring the . His incision site is healing nicely. The hardest part is waiting the 7 days to bathe him.


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## FourPaws (Sep 24, 2012)

Thanks for the reassurance! I'm guessing you had the traditional surgery...feel better soon Mack!


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

I have done much research and contacted vets and dog behaviorists regarding the timing of neutering.

The earliest a vet should neuter a dog is 6 months because it can take up to 6 months for one or both testicles to descend. If the testicles don't descend they need to be removed because undescended testicles will turn cancerous.

If the testicles have properly descended, the timing is a trade-off between behavioral and health issues.

Current research indicates the risk of certain cancers are higher for dogs who are neutered before "puberty". Also, as previously mentioned, there are health benefits to waiting until a dogs growth plates have closed. Unlike females, there does not appear to be any converse health BENEFITS to early neutering.

It can be argued that there are behavioral benefits to early neutering, as in behavioral benefits that make it easier for the owner.


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## FourPaws (Sep 24, 2012)

Thanks, Gibbs' Mom and Dad. Not exactly sure how "puberty" is defined in a male dog--testicles have descended, he is marking territory and has a grand old time mounting a big fluffy pillow bed and last night tried with an enormous, patient, male Golden Retriever.

My vet dismissed the notion of growth plates closing and needing testosterone post six months. But others endorse this notion emphatically. How do you know when the growth plates have closed?

Have you made a decision? I am so grateful for the thoughtfulness and seriousness of these replies (another fresh worry: we just gave him a major summer buzzcut, and I saw that one of his forelegs seems a little bowed...??!!???). Am going to meet with a new vet tomorrow and all this input will give me good questions to pose...FourPaws


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

FourPaws said:


> Thanks, Gibbs' Mom and Dad. Not exactly sure how "puberty" is defined in a male dog--testicles have descended, he is marking territory and has a grand old time mounting a big fluffy pillow bed and last night tried with an enormous, patient, male Golden Retriever.
> 
> My vet dismissed the notion of growth plates closing and needing testosterone post six months. But others endorse this notion emphatically. How do you know when the growth plates have closed?
> 
> Have you made a decision? I am so grateful for the thoughtfulness and seriousness of these replies (another fresh worry: we just gave him a major summer buzzcut, and I saw that one of his forelegs seems a little bowed...??!!???). Am going to meet with a new vet tomorrow and all this input will give me good questions to pose...FourPaws


Gibbs turned 4 months on July 23. We will not have him neutered before 9 months.

We were originally going to get him neutered at 6 months, before the testosterone fully hit him. However, our inquiries and research lead us to several studies suggesting a correlation between certain cancers and early neutering (6 months).

We have found no studies or research to suggest there are ANY significant HEALTH benefits to early neutering.

Our inquiries and research suggest the correlation between certain cancers and neutering ceased after 8 months, which is why we decided to wait until at least 9 months to have Gibbs neutered.

FYI - For female, early spading is correlated to a significant DECREASE in mammary cancers, so there is a significant health benefit to having females spayed early.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

FourPaws said:


> Thanks, Gibbs' Mom and Dad. Not exactly sure how "puberty" is defined in a male dog--testicles have descended, he is marking territory and has a grand old time mounting a big fluffy pillow bed and last night tried with an enormous, patient, male Golden Retriever.
> 
> My vet dismissed the notion of growth plates closing and needing testosterone post six months. But others endorse this notion emphatically. How do you know when the growth plates have closed?
> 
> Have you made a decision? I am so grateful for the thoughtfulness and seriousness of these replies (another fresh worry: we just gave him a major summer buzzcut, and I saw that one of his forelegs seems a little bowed...??!!???). Am going to meet with a new vet tomorrow and all this input will give me good questions to pose...FourPaws


You can't know FOR SURE the growth plates have closed without x-rays. That's why, in small breeds, people use 1 year as a good "guestimate", because MOST will be fully mature (physically) by that age. Some will mature earlier. That's why it is strongly recommended not to start agility with a dog less than one year of age. Large-giant breeds mature later, and a best "guestimate" on growth plate closing for them is closer to 18 months.

I guess the bottom line is that it does NO harm to wait until a year, if you can deal with the behavior challenges with the boys and the heat with the girls. Delaying spay/neuter may have some health benefits for pet dogs, it definitely has long-term soundness advantages for performance dogs.

As far as his bowed leg is concerned, there are several things that can cause that. It COULD be CD, but when it's in just one leg, it could also be from an injury to the growth plate at some point, or even something else entirely.


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## FourPaws (Sep 24, 2012)

Thank you again for your care and thoughtfulness. You have wisely slowed me down--he'll be nine months on Thursday--and given me a lot of good questions to ask a new try-out vet today. So impressed by your research. Is there a particularly good source you'd recommend, when I have further questions (particularly if the leg turns out to be problematic)?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

FourPaws said:


> Thank you again for your care and thoughtfulness. You have wisely slowed me down--he'll be nine months on Thursday--and given me a lot of good questions to ask a new try-out vet today. So impressed by your research. Is there a particularly good source you'd recommend, when I have further questions (particularly if the leg turns out to be problematic)?


I just did lots of research on the web, plus I am lucky enough to have several friends who are veterinarians. As far as the leg is concerned, though, especially if the vet thinks it might be genetic, you need to talk to your breeder.

Do remember, however, that crooked legs are, unfortunately, not uncommon in the breed. The GOOD news is that unless you were planning a performance career for him, most dogs, even those with CD, live perfectly normal, happy lives. There is a higher incidence of certain problems associated with the syndrome, but those problems are still a low probability for any individual dog.

The important thing, with CD is that reputable breeders want to breed away from it. No problem in your case, because your little guy is slated to lose his "manhood" anyway.  But your breeder will want to know, as it may affect her choices in terms of future breedings.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

krandall said:


> ...your little guy is slated to lose his "manhood" anyway...  .


aaah - don't make it harder than it already is! I still don't know if I'm going to able to look my buddy in the eye after I take him.

Actually, I told Dana that she has to take Gibbs to get it done, and that I'm going to tell Gibbs that it was all Mommy's fault and that Daddy didn't know anything about it.

I'm obviously just kidding, but that was the emotional drawback (for me) in deciding to wait until 9-12 months. I has hoping that he'd have no idea what he was missing if we had him neutered at 6 months, but now he's going to come home, look me right in the eye and bark - "Daddy, you better hope I never get my teeth into yours".


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

FourPaws said:


> ...So impressed by your research. Is there a particularly good source you'd recommend, when I have further questions (particularly if the leg turns out to be problematic)?


I don't know if this question was meant for Krandall or me, but there is no harm in answering.

Research is tricky for someone like me - a non-expert with little experience, but my lack of experience is offset by my professional skepticism, analytical capability, my quest to find the right answers and ability to network with other professionals.

I start my research by searching threads in this forum, other forums and on the internet. I pay particular attention to Krandall and Davetgabby on this forum. Please, I hope I haven't offended anyone else because several other members have been helpful, but those two seem to have a broad base and wealth of knowledge on most topics. You should always be wary of relying on forum replies because you have no idea of the particular expertise of those posting. I'm a perfect example - I'm the "Dad" half of "Gibbs Mom and Dad" and I have no particular expertise other than my ability to research, read, understand, ask questions, and consult with vets and behaviorists. I consider myself and those like me to be the least credible source of information. The reason I distinguish Krandall and Dave as a more credible souce is because I've been able to verify much of what they post through other souces - vets, behaviorists et, al. They have proven themselves to be reliable.

I then perform various searches on the internet. I hesitate recommend searching the internet, because unless you're adept at filtering through the trash, you can easily be led astray. Pay particular attention to the date and source of the information. An article or post from "Joe - Dog Lover" or "Gibbs Mom and Dad" is probably meaningless, but so might be an article from ASPCA published in 1995.

I then take what I learn from this forum and various internet research to my network, which consists of multiple veterinarians, two behaviorists, the humane society and the ASPCA. I will often ask them where they got their information so I can backcheck it, and might reverse the process if I'm getting differing opinions.

I then take all the information I've obtained and make the best decision I can for Gibbs that also works for Dana and I.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Awww, gee, John, thanks! :redface: 

Great explanation of how to go about separating the chaff from the wheat in what you hear and read, whether it is from vets (who know a lot, but not everything, and OFTEN have widely differing opinions) trainers, pet stores (perilous! ) or the internet.


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

FourPaws said:


> Thank you for your prompt and thoughtful reply. I am quite anxious about new treatments, injections as well, but then I think about anesthesia?? Nonetheless, I think I'll go traditional route.
> You paid $100? Wow. What part of the country do you live in? I'm in Northern Jersey. When I asked the receptionist at my--admittedly fabulous--vet why she charged so much, she just cut me off with, "Because that's what the doctor charges." Gulp.
> 
> Apparently she also schedules a follow-up appointment at 14 days to "remove stitches." (Though that visit is included in the price.) Don't most vets/clinics used disintegrating stitches?
> ...


Great info as always from the other posters! I can share my experience with some of these...

I live in FL. We have a lot of zip code pricing here. For my conventional vet, I go to a guy who is about 45 min from where I live, which i dont like, but his procedure pricing is very fair. A lot of rescue organizations use him.

I think a vet charging $640 for a neuter unless it includes A LOT of extra services, is kind of socially irresponsible and it would make me think about getting another vet. With my lab, our holistic vet did the neuter and she charged around $100 also, or maybe even less, and she's known to be on the expensive side on an hourly basis. I remember at the time I didnt think to ask how much it was going to be and my husband and I realized on the way to pick up the dog that we never asked! We were very worried about what the bill was going to be and were pleasantly surprised when it was so inexpensive. And for pain she provided Tramuell versus an oral drug and that worked just fine (we used it again on our hav and they were impressed with how the incision healed). She doesnt do surgeries at all any longer which is why we had to have the other vet do the procedure.

We did look at another conventional vet a friend recommended and their quote was $450. So there is a lot of variation out there.

With our lab they used the dissolving kind. With the hav, they did not - guess its a matter of preference. I think our vet likes to do a recheck also. They did not charge us for that though. We did crate him at night but we always do. We did the Crate Games training class with him and he loves his crate so not an issue. Plus he doesnt spend much time in it during the day. We did use the collar because I erred on the side of caution. I would take it off when I could fully supervise him, but that was it.

I dont think my dog's personality has changed. He is still high energy. He never developed marking behaviors even at 8 months. I kept him away from vertical surfaces.

You do have to watch the baby teeth if you wait. We feed raw and the extra tooth on the bottom in the front became a real problem. I had to use tweezers to get the food out as a toothbrush wouldnt do it.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

this topic is definitely in transition , just like other vet propaganda e.g.. vaccinations . I have a few articles but it's hard not to find someone or some organization that does not have unbiased opinions. more research is needed for sure. I wouldn't know what to believe. Definitely pros and cons with each 
http://news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=10498

http://www.theriogenology.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=59


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

I'm new to this forum and hugely impressed by how informed and helpful is the information given. My puppy Cuba is 4 months old, and my vet tells me there is relatively new research that suggests early spaying of bitches - before their first season - HUGELY reduces the likelihood of mammary tumours later in life. I must say all my instincts make me recoil from such early neutering, and a breeder friend says that spaying before the first season hugely increases the likelihood of incontinence because the puppy hasn't fully developed. She breeds Tibetan terriers and in decades of breeding has never had a bitch that developed mammary cancer despite later or indeed no neutering. It is SO hard to negotiate this minefield. The internet, as others have pointed out, can give one a mass of conflicting information, and there is disagreement amongst vets, breeders, and the rest of us. I am married to a biologist and try and think scientifically about information rather than go with emotional instinct, but it is very difficult to decide what advice to take. I'd like to know more about the statistics, before rushing into a pre-first season neutering. I guess I've got a couple of months leeway to do my homework!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> I'm new to this forum and hugely impressed by how informed and helpful is the information given. My puppy Cuba is 4 months old, and my vet tells me there is relatively new research that suggests early spaying of bitches - before their first season - HUGELY reduces the likelihood of mammary tumours later in life. I must say all my instincts make me recoil from such early neutering, and a breeder friend says that spaying before the first season hugely increases the likelihood of incontinence because the puppy hasn't fully developed. She breeds Tibetan terriers and in decades of breeding has never had a bitch that developed mammary cancer despite later or indeed no neutering. It is SO hard to negotiate this minefield. The internet, as others have pointed out, can give one a mass of conflicting information, and there is disagreement amongst vets, breeders, and the rest of us. I am married to a biologist and try and think scientifically about information rather than go with emotional instinct, but it is very difficult to decide what advice to take. I'd like to know more about the statistics, before rushing into a pre-first season neutering. I guess I've got a couple of months leeway to do my homework!


I think the paper Dave posted from the Therio vets gave the most reasoned, fair-to-both sides list of pros and cons I've seen. There are risks both ways. But depending on the breed, the risks may be quite small. (If I had a Golden, I would do absolutely ANYTHING to reduce the already high chances of Hemangiosarcoma) Reading that reinforced my feeling that waiting until maturity is the right thing for dogs I own.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

I'll check out that paper, it sounds interesting, thank so much.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

Lalla said:


> ...my vet tells me there is relatively new research that suggests early spaying of bitches - before their first season - HUGELY reduces the likelihood of mammary tumours later in life...


That is exactly what my vet said.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> I think the paper Dave posted from the Therio vets gave the most reasoned, fair-to-both sides list of pros and cons I've seen. There are risks both ways. But depending on the breed, the risks may be quite small. (If I had a Golden, I would do absolutely ANYTHING to reduce the already high chances of Hemangiosarcoma) Reading that reinforced my feeling that waiting until maturity is the right thing for dogs I own.


I've read the paper now; it is very good, and makes one realise that this is not a simple question with a simple answer. I suppose the next thing one would need to know is where Havanese figure within the scheme of things; if you knew that you had a breed that was susceptible to, say, osteosarcoma and you knew that early neutering protected against, say, that particular kind of cancer then you might consider it something that tipped that particular balance; it's really hard to navigate through these pros and cons, but what it does tell you clearly is that no-one should advise per se that early neutering is 'bad' or 'good'; there are too many variables to make such a pronouncement, and all you can do is look at breed specifics, think about individuals, and then make the best educated decision possible. Which is, I guess, what I and the rest of us in this position will have to do, with (I hope!) a lot of information gleaned thanks to the generosity of the advice on this forum.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> That is exactly what my vet said.


I don't think that is "relatively new"... I think that information has been around for a number of years now. BUT... you have to balance it against the fact that OTHER cancers are more common in females spayed early, and the fact that there is a higher incidence of incontinence in females spayed early. (and, of course, the structural advantages of postponing spaying)

With Havanese, the cancer issues are probably a trade off. But as I said in a previous post, if I had a Golden or a Berner or one of the other breeds already all too prone to Hemangiosarcoma and Osteosarcoma, there's no way I'd spay or neuter early. (in fact, I might decide not to spay or neuter at all, as a lot of my performance friends with those breeds do)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> I've read the paper now; it is very good, and makes one realise that this is not a simple question with a simple answer. I suppose the next thing one would need to know is where Havanese figure within the scheme of things; if you knew that you had a breed that was susceptible to, say, osteosarcoma and you knew that early neutering protected against, say, that particular kind of cancer then you might consider it something that tipped that particular balance; it's really hard to navigate through these pros and cons, but what it does tell you clearly is that no-one should advise per se that early neutering is 'bad' or 'good'; there are too many variables to make such a pronouncement, and all you can do is look at breed specifics, think about individuals, and then make the best educated decision possible. Which is, I guess, what I and the rest of us in this position will have to do, with (I hope!) a lot of information gleaned thanks to the generosity of the advice on this forum.


Bingo! We don't have a lot of bone cancer in the breed. (in fact, I don't know that I've ever heard of a Hav with it) so that isn't a huge risk factor. But I've also not heard of much mammary cancer. In general, Havs are pretty healthy little dogs. 

I think for MOST Hav owners, who want to enjoy their dog "just" as a pet (I put that in quotes, recognizing that that's the BEST use a Hav can be put to! ) it probably makes very little difference when they are neutered/spayed, so people might as well do it and get it over with, avoiding some of the behavioral challenges of working with an unaltered dog. For those of us who will need their dogs to stay sound over a long period of time, doing hard work, it makes more sense to postpone it until the dog is physically mature.


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

I thought this was an interesting statement in one of the articles:

_"the increased incidence of joint diseases among early-neutered dogs is likely a combination of the effect of neutering on the young dog's growth plates as well as the increase in weight on the joints that is commonly seen in neutered dogs."_

I think it is very important that we keep our Havs weight in normal ranges to minimize health issues. I've noticed that many of the Havs I see at dog parks are a little chunky so reducing treats and meal sizes needs better attention.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

MarinaGirl said:


> I thought this was an interesting statement in one of the articles:
> 
> _"the increased incidence of joint diseases among early-neutered dogs is likely a combination of the effect of neutering on the young dog's growth plates as well as the increase in weight on the joints that is commonly seen in neutered dogs."_
> 
> I think it is very important that we keep our Havs weight in normal ranges to minimize health issues. I've noticed that many of the Havs I see at dog parks are a little chunky so reducing treats and meal sizes needs better attention.


True! It's a lean horse for a long race!


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## sandypaws (Aug 8, 2012)

*Neutering/Zeut...*



MarinaGirl said:


> I thought this was an interesting statement in one of the articles:
> 
> _"the increased incidence of joint diseases among early-neutered dogs is likely a combination of the effect of neutering on the young dog's growth plates as well as the increase in weight on the joints that is commonly seen in neutered dogs."_
> 
> I think it is very important that we keep our Havs weight in normal ranges to minimize health issues. I've noticed that many of the Havs I see at dog parks are a little chunky so reducing treats and meal sizes needs better attention.


I think being lean is one of the contributing factors in Bailey's long life (15 years) and Tyler's longer one (16 years and counting). It certainly is healthier just as it is with us.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

krandall said:


> I don't think that is "relatively new"... I think that information has been around for a number of years now. BUT... you have to balance it against the fact that OTHER cancers are more common in females spayed early, and the fact that there is a higher incidence of incontinence in females spayed early. (and, of course, the structural advantages of postponing spaying)
> 
> With Havanese, the cancer issues are probably a trade off. But as I said in a previous post, if I had a Golden or a Berner or one of the other breeds already all too prone to Hemangiosarcoma and Osteosarcoma, there's no way I'd spay or neuter early. (in fact, I might decide not to spay or neuter at all, as a lot of my performance friends with those breeds do)


The discussion we had was that there is a significantly greater correlation between early spaying and reduced mammary cancer than of the converse health risks. Her main point for females is that early spaying can reduce the risk of mammary cancer to nominal levels, and mammary cancer is the most common cancer for females. The other health risks to early spaying have a much lower correlation.

In other words, the odds are more in your favor with early spaying.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> For those of us who will need their dogs to stay sound over a long period of time, doing hard work, it makes more sense to postpone it until the dog is physically mature.


Well, I think we ALL want our dogs to stay sound over a long period of time, don't we? And if it's the 'hard work' that might suggest we postpone neutering I imagine you mean hard on joints and general physical 'hard'; it might be tricky to know whether or not you might have a puppy who would take to agility, for example; the life might turn out to be 'hard' in that way so perhaps that thought would make one less keen to neuter early?? It is SO complicated! I guess I just don't want to be bamboozled by generalities and DO want to take the decision after proper consideration.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

Lalla said:


> Well, I think we ALL want our dogs to stay sound over a long period of time, don't we? And if it's the 'hard work' that might suggest we postpone neutering I imagine you mean hard on joints and general physical 'hard'; it might be tricky to know whether or not you might have a puppy who would take to agility, for example; the life might turn out to be 'hard' in that way so perhaps that thought would make one less keen to neuter early?? It is SO complicated! I guess I just don't want to be bamboozled by generalities and DO want to take the decision after proper consideration.


I'm sure Krandell will clarify her point herself, but I think what she meant by hard work is that it can be more difficult to raise and care for an intact pet than a neutered or spayed pet.

At the end of the day, we all want to do what's best for our pets and it is often hard to know what that is. An often overlooked decision criteria is this question:

*What works best for you?* - especially in situations where there is conflicting research and opinions

I'm not suggesting you should sacrifice your pets well being for minor inconveniences, but your dog's well being is inextricably linked to your well being and happiness in your home. Any decision you make has to work for YOU, or it will likely not be in your dog's best interest.

My long winded reply can be summed up best by saying:

Do what works best for you when faced with a myriad of conflicting opinions and/or research and your pet will love you for it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> Well, I think we ALL want our dogs to stay sound over a long period of time, don't we? And if it's the 'hard work' that might suggest we postpone neutering I imagine you mean hard on joints and general physical 'hard'; it might be tricky to know whether or not you might have a puppy who would take to agility, for example; the life might turn out to be 'hard' in that way so perhaps that thought would make one less keen to neuter early?? It is SO complicated! I guess I just don't want to be bamboozled by generalities and DO want to take the decision after proper consideration.


Of course we all want our dogs to stay sound through their whole lives. But realistically, Kodi puts more wear and tear on his joints than a dog who doesn't compete (and practice) regularly. I didn't know what I know now, or I would have delayed his neutering longer. (he was neutered at 7 months) But I still do more to protect his joints and over-all soundness than most pet owners would. He gets glucosamine and fish oil daily, and goes for chiro every 6 weeks, not because there is anything wrong with him, but to keep it that way. (I come from a sport horse background, and believe strongly in preventive maintenance in performance animals) I cross my fingers that because he is a small dog, and therefore puts less strain on his body in general, that his early-ish neutering won't bite us in the butt later on.

I think there are very few Havs that WOULDN'T do well in agility and/or obedience/rally sports assuming that they don't have conformational faults that preclude it. (for instance, I wouldn't run a dog with really crooked legs in agility) So I think people need to put some thought into what their goals are with the dog up front. I think most people do puppy kindergarten, and maybe a pet class or two, and that's the extent of the formal training the dog gets for the rest of their life. I knew that I wanted to compete with Kodi, so I looked long and hard to find a dog with the kind of early start I wanted, with good, straight, solid conformation, and the right disposition. (very people motivated and a high play drive) I even brought a trainer with me and had him temperament tested. By now, at 4, I've put thousands of dollars and countless hours into training him. We are at the training center at least 3 days a week, and train at home daily. While I would love Kodi no less if he had a career ending injury, competition and training are a big part of my life. If I lost him as a training partner, to a soundness issue, it would be a huge blow.

So if you KNOW your goal is dog sports, you need to weigh that into your decision about when to spay/neuter. Even if you think you might want to play around a little and take a variety of classes and just see where it takes you, if it were me, I'd still take the conservative route.

But I've seen many people who enjoy "agility" classes where they lead their dog (on leash) over a variety of down-sized obstacles. They and their dog have a great time, and they think they are doing agility. It's a great bonding experience, and puts little or no strain on the dog's joints. Those dogs, I'm sure, put more stress on themselves just doing RLH in the house and yard.  For these people and those who know they are looking specifically for a house pet, I doubt it makes any significant difference when they are neutered/spayed.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

I found these two links. One discusses hereditary health risks specific to Havanese and the other lists specific cancer risks associated with every breed.

Please note that I have not "vetted" these links in any manner. One was posted in 2007 and the other in 2009.

The second link which discusses cancer risks seems to affirm what Krandall posted earlier - that Havanese do not have specific cancer risks.

http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/98/5/510.full

http://www.houstonpettalk.com/health/canine-cancer-high-risk-breeds/


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> I'm sure Krandell will clarify her point herself, but I think what she meant by hard work is that it can be more difficult to raise and care for an intact pet than a neutered or spayed pet.
> 
> At the end of the day, we all want to do what's best for our pets and it is often hard to know what that is. An often overlooked decision criteria is this question:
> 
> ...


I meant hard physical work on the part of the dog. The "hard work" of raising an intact dog would be a point in the favor of earlier neutering. 

I also agree completely that people need to learn all they can, weigh the pros and cons, and make the decision that is best for THEM and their pet. (that's why I particularly liked the article by the Therio vets... That's exactly what they were getting at. There is no one answer that is right for every dog or every dog owner. It's something that people need to decide for themselves, hopefully with the help of a well-informed, open-minded vet.


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## FourPaws (Sep 24, 2012)

As the one who posted the initial question (and no one has read up on Zeuterin? wild: it's the injection now approved by the FDA that shrinks the dog's testicles and leaves some testosterone flow; used by a number of nonprofit clinics...obviously less expensive but???)..I'm so impressed by the quality of exchanges here. I interviewed a few vets but decided, for reasons of logistics and timing, to close my eyes, pay too much and go with a vet who is a terrific diagnostician (my little guy, after his summer buzz cut, looks like one foreleg is mildly bowed...uh oh? ...and his ears are reddening again: allergies? infection?), at least for neutering and follow-up. We contracted with the breeder to have him neutered and, for the reasons listed above (plus, at this point his motto is: So Many Trees, So Little Time and he's also spraying inside in new places like a race horse), we're going in today. He just turned 9 months. Whimper, whimper. Fingers/paws crossed! Thanks, everyone...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

FourPaws said:


> As the one who posted the initial question (and no one has read up on Zeuterin? wild: it's the injection now approved by the FDA that shrinks the dog's testicles and leaves some testosterone flow; used by a number of nonprofit clinics...obviously less expensive but???)..I'm so impressed by the quality of exchanges here. I interviewed a few vets but decided, for reasons of logistics and timing, to close my eyes, pay too much and go with a vet who is a terrific diagnostician (my little guy, after his summer buzz cut, looks like one foreleg is mildly bowed...uh oh? ...and his ears are reddening again: allergies? infection?), at least for neutering and follow-up. We contracted with the breeder to have him neutered and, for the reasons listed above (plus, at this point his motto is: So Many Trees, So Little Time and he's also spraying inside in new places like a race horse), we're going in today. He just turned 9 months. Whimper, whimper. Fingers/paws crossed! Thanks, everyone...


He'll be fine!  (and so will you! )


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Here is a really good article, and with a lot of links, that I've been sent by Kay Laurence:

http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/th...ns-spay-neuter-effects-the-health-of-our-dogs

Kay is the absolute best clicker training wizard in the UK, her site is learningaboutdogs.com if anyone is interested. I've been going to her for years and took Cuba last night to get to know some big dogs - she's a bit fearful at the moment. Her new best friend is a Leonberger. We all talked a lot about the neutering dilemma. Kay (who breeds border collies and Gordon setters) is adamant that neutering before a first season is insane; she would only say that based on extensive research and experience.
I'll see if I can add a picture of Cuba with her New Best Friend - I'm new to this so might fail, but I'll try!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> I found these two links. One discusses hereditary health risks specific to Havanese and the other lists specific cancer risks associated with every breed.
> 
> Please note that I have not "vetted" these links in any manner. One was posted in 2007 and the other in 2009.
> 
> ...


The first link is scary, but I suppose one has to be really good at analysing statistics properly to understand it and not to go into an emotional tailspin. Neither anecdotal "Havanese are a healthy breed on the whole" nor scientific data misunderstood or half understood are particularly helpful in the end, are they; I wish I understood more but one can only do one's best to be informed and to make informed judgements, and to try meantime not to scare oneself to death. The difficulty seems to be when you start to ask 'experts' who so often seem to disagree with each other.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

Lalla said:


> The first link is scary, but I suppose one has to be really good at analysing statistics properly to understand it and not to go into an emotional tailspin. Neither anecdotal "Havanese are a healthy breed on the whole" nor scientific data misunderstood or half understood are particularly helpful in the end, are they; I wish I understood more but one can only do one's best to be informed and to make informed judgements, and to try meantime not to scare oneself to death. The difficulty seems to be when you start to ask 'experts' who so often seem to disagree with each other.


I didn't want to scare you. The reason I posted those to links was to show there is very little evidence to show that Havanese are particularly suseptible to cancer.

Many of the risks correlated to early neutering are cancer risks.

Most of the health risks specific to Havanese appear to be skeletal, cataracts or heart murmurs.

There is appears to be little evidence to suggest that early neutering is correlated to cataracts or heart murmurs.

The thegenology link posted by Davetgabby does reference an increased risk of hip dysplacia for dogs neutered before 5 months.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> The thegenology link posted by Davetgabby does reference an increased risk of hip dysplacia for dogs neutered before 5 months.


That said, dysplasia is a MUCH bigger issue with large breed dogs. (not that I agree with early neutering personally )


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

krandall said:


> That said, dysplasia is a MUCH bigger issue with large breed dogs. (not that I agree with early neutering personally )


I agree that hip dysplasia is much bigger risk with large breed dogs, but I didn't want to be minimalistic and omit it since it is skeletal and an early (<= 5 months) neuter risk.

My firm conclusions for owners who have made the decision to neuter or spay:

1. I wouldn't neuter or spay before 6 months.
2. I would neuter males at 6 months if their testicles didn't descend.

My evolving preferences:

3. I would spay females before their first heat cycle unless presented with a breed specific risk factor not to do so. If I waited past the first heat cycle, I would have them spayed before number 2.
4. I think it is prudent to wait until at least 8-9 months (depending upon "puberty") to neuter males as a "hedge" or middle ground to guard against early neuter risks.


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

FourPaws said:


> As the one who posted the initial question (and no one has read up on Zeuterin? wild: it's the injection now approved by the FDA that shrinks the dog's testicles and leaves some testosterone flow; used by a number of nonprofit clinics...obviously less expensive but???)..I'm so impressed by the quality of exchanges here. I interviewed a few vets but decided, for reasons of logistics and timing, to close my eyes, pay too much and go with a vet who is a terrific diagnostician (my little guy, after his summer buzz cut, looks like one foreleg is mildly bowed...uh oh? ...and his ears are reddening again: allergies? infection?), at least for neutering and follow-up. We contracted with the breeder to have him neutered and, for the reasons listed above (plus, at this point his motto is: So Many Trees, So Little Time and he's also spraying inside in new places like a race horse), we're going in today. He just turned 9 months. Whimper, whimper. Fingers/paws crossed! Thanks, everyone...


How did it go?

Re the ear infection - havent had any with my hav but I have heard Zymox works well. It's easy to find. My lab used to get them from time to time but I noticed it was related to heartworm medication.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> The discussion we had was that there is a significantly greater correlation between early spaying and reduced mammary cancer than of the converse health risks. Her main point for females is that early spaying can reduce the risk of mammary cancer to nominal levels, and mammary cancer is the most common cancer for females. The other health risks to early spaying have a much lower correlation.
> 
> In other words, the odds are more in your favor with early spaying.


This is SUCH a hard decision! I've got about three weeks now to make up my mind what to do with Cuba; I don't quite know why I am SO resistant to spaying before her first season....I vacillate depending on who I'm talking to, which really isn't my usual modus operandi - I'm good at looking at research and weighing up pros and cons usually - it must be some kind of emotional component that's making me so dithery; or maybe it's just that there are too many variables. Errrrggggg!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

This is an interesting article; I was under the apparent misapprehension that ovariectomy was something done in the States but not in Europe, and it appears to be the other way around. Anyway, I include the link in case anyone is interested. I've read up a lot - if you search for 'ovariectomy for dogs' there is a lot of stuff out there; so far all seems to me to point one in the direction of this, as far as I can see, more or less equally effective and far less invasive way of 'neutering' IF one is going to go that route at all, and I'm still not entirely convinced of even that....

http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...iectomy-safer-alternative-to-pet-spaying.aspx


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Well, the three weeks I had to dither in, at my last post, have now passed - Cuba will be 6 months old on Monday....and I'm still dithering. My vet is being very keen not to push me in a direction with which I'm not comfortable, but the trouble is I'm not really comfortable with ANY direction. I still don't want to neuter her before her first season, it still seems somehow 'wrong'; I know that's pathetic an the non-scientific sort of touchy-feely kind of thinking that I try not to get caught up in. Ovariectomy sounds so much better, at least the keyhole version does, than removing the uterus as well...but that doesn't answer the 'when' question. And my vet says I'm wrong, it really doesn't make much difference which operation you choose. But that's not what I've read - research I've looked into says recovery time from keyhole ovariectomy is FAR shorter and easier....errrggggg! I'm going round in circles and have pretty much run out of time if I DO want her spayed (where does that horrible word come from, I wonder?) before 6 months. Help!!!


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## Ruthiec (Jun 18, 2013)

Hi Lalla,

I can't help but I do sympathise. We agonise over so many things to do with our pets' health and the many conflicting views don't help.

I hope you are able to come to a decision soon so that you can put it behind you and just enjoy Cuba.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Hi, Ruth - thank you! I've been doing a lot more research, and have got my scientist husband to look at the figures for me - he has a far more analytical brain than I do! He says that the real problem is that figures are trotted out in many papers that don't actually tell you what the instances of various things associated with either the pros or the cons are overall. You are told that there is an x% likelihood of, say, mammary cancer, but not in which breed, or even if particular breeds are mentioned, and not HOW COMMON it is in that breed; so a percentage of an overall figure that you don't know is relatively unhelpful. x% of WHAT? I've got him on the case, though, so maybe we'll find a way through the literature that could be helpful to me, and possibly some others of you?
Meantime, a vet friend has sent me the following links, which don't help in the overall figures, but are nonetheless interesting in the lists of those conditions helped by spaying/neutering versus those that are made worse:

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/spayneuterage.pdf


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

OK, anyone who is interested!! Here is a nice clear digest of figures based on the following: 

If 26% of all breeds are AT RISK of getting mammary cancer - we don't know whether they will or they won't - which on careful searching seems to be the most likely figure, you would reduce that risk (from the 26%) thus:

It would be reduced to 0.13% if you spay BEFORE THE FIRST SEASON.
It would be reduced to 2.08% if you spay BEFORE THE SECOND SEASON.
It would be reduced to 6.76% if you spay BEFORE THE THIRD SEASON
It would be a 26% risk (26 dogs out of 100 across all breeds are likely to get mammary cancer) if you NEVER SPAY.

If you look at the reasons NOT to spay early or at all, and see that they include a higher likelihood of, for example, osteosarcoma, this is irrelevant in the Havanese that is one of only 8 out of 48 listed breeds who are categorised at NO RISK. But there are other, good reasons to consider allowing dogs to reach puberty intact and, in bitches, to have their first season.

I do hope this helps some of those of you out there in my quandary.
I personally have, based on the above, decided on the following: to let Cuba have her first season, and to find a vet that will perform a keyhole ovariectomy (NOT an ovariohysterectomy which, from all I've read, is unnecessary - another whole topic!) before her second season. I might change my mind again (I'll keep on researching!), but that's the present plan. I'd be so interested in what anyone thinks about all of the above.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

I've been reading that little book, "Pawprints" by Suzanne McKay, which I expect a lot of you have already read. In it she suggests that some Havanese bitches come into season "as early as six months and others as late as 18 to 24 months. Physical maturity generally follows sexual maturity by a few months." (page 54). If that is true, and one wanted to spay BEFORE the first heat cycle, you would, by default, be obliged to do so at 6 months in order to be sure to get it done BEFORE the earliest possible time that it could happen. BUT you wouldn't know if your particular bitch might not have her first season for as much as a year after that. You could, therefore, be risking depriving that particular bitch's body of growth hormones, and risking the various bone problems associated with neutering before those hormones have had time to do their work.

So I am even more convinced, after reading that and if it is true, that neutering AFTER the first season, whenever that should happen, is the way to go.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> I do hope this helps some of those of you out there in my quandary.
> I personally have, based on the above, decided on the following: to let Cuba have her first season, and to find a vet that will perform a keyhole ovariectomy (NOT an ovariohysterectomy which, from all I've read, is unnecessary - another whole topic!) before her second season. I might change my mind again (I'll keep on researching!), but that's the present plan. I'd be so interested in what anyone thinks about all of the above.


This is what I plan to do if and when I have a female.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> This is what I plan to do if and when I have a female.


That's reassuring, Karen, I'm really glad you agree with the plan; it's taken me a lot of effort to get there!!


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## lucymarie7 (Jul 6, 2013)

We have wonderful Larry. My husband & I have been back and forth on this. We were going to have him neutered at nine months but my husband couldn't do it and I had to agree. Larry wasn't ready. He still had two baby teeth and was still growing. Now it is a year and tomorrow he is suppose to go to vet to get neutered. I just got off the phone with my husband who is having second thoughts again. We both looked on the internet and there seems to be more studies disputing health reasons to neuter them. They are finding higher risks of certain diseases for neutered dogs vs. intact dogs. I searched to try to find some concrete evidence to neuter him. The only fact common in all the articles is population reduction. Larry is not wandering the streets and is in a very protective home. He is far from aggressive and I need some help here to tell me why we must do this. Anyone? I have 24 hours! LOL


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Hi, Lucymarie7 - you might already have opened the attachment I posted a few weeks ago, but just so's to make it easier, here is the relevant extract:

On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs, especially immature male dogs, in order to prevent future health problems. The number of health problems associated with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases.
On the positive side, neutering male dogs
• eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
• reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)
On the negative side, neutering male dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
• increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
• triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

This is based on sound scientific research and is a reputable paper from a reputable journal, so if it were my male dog, it would certainly sway me personally towards NOT neutering. Cuba is female, so the pros and cons are different, and already gone into here. She is now eight and a half months old; if I'd neutered her when my vets wanted me to I should by now have already missed about three months of growth hormones; that consideration convinced me NOT to spay before her first season. I'm really glad I haven't given in to pressure. Good luck! Do keep us posted on your decision; it's a hard one, but there is a lot of actual evidence out there, so at least we can inform our decisions.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

The only other thing to keep in mind is that many breeder contracts REQUIRE you to neuter your pet dog. If your contract does, it may still be something you can talk over with your breeder and work out to your mutual satisfaction. But don't just blow off your contract.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Very good point, Karen; I'm sure reasonable discussion would result in mutual agreement, especially where health is an issue, and with other guarantees in place, don't you think?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> Very good point, Karen; I'm sure reasonable discussion would result in mutual agreement, especially where health is an issue, and with other guarantees in place, don't you think?


I would hope so, if it's a good breeder. But it's something that needs to be addressed, not forgotten or ignored.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Lalla said:


> I've been reading that little book, "Pawprints" by Suzanne McKay, which I expect a lot of you have already read. In it she suggests that some Havanese bitches come into season "as early as six months and others as late as 18 to 24 months. /QUOTE]
> 
> Re quoting my own quote: I spoke to my vet about this; he said he thought it vanishingly unlikely that 24 months could pass before a season, and that it was more likely, and apparently not uncommon, for an owner to miss noticing a season - he said that first ones can be very scant and un-showy and that (particularly in a long haired breed) you could simply not be aware that a season had been and gone. Hmmm. Does anyone think this plausible? What about the reaction of other dogs, wouldn't any male let you know that your bitch was in season??? Has anyone any experience of either thinking they've missed a season, or knowing for sure that their bitch didn't come into first season for a very long time?? Cuba is now 9 months old and no sign that I, or any dog she's met have noticed....


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## fandances (Jul 4, 2013)

*Neutering next week*

Hello. We have an appointment scheduled for next week to neuter our 8 mo old pup. He has an undescended testicle so we don't feel we have much choice since it could be a cancer risk, and we feel like we've given it a couple extra months to see if the culprit was late descender. 
Obviously a little nervous about it, and wish he didn't have to spend the whole day at the vet where he finds it so stressful. Any advice in general, and for when we comes home? How long can we expect the recovery to be, given that it is more invasive like a spay? Any similar situations out there?


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

fandances said:


> Hello. We have an appointment scheduled for next week to neuter our 8 mo old pup. He has an undescended testicle so we don't feel we have much choice since it could be a cancer risk, and we feel like we've given it a couple extra months to see if the culprit was late descender.
> Obviously a little nervous about it, and wish he didn't have to spend the whole day at the vet where he finds it so stressful. Any advice in general, and for when we comes home? How long can we expect the recovery to be, given that it is more invasive like a spay? Any similar situations out there?


There's a lot online about this topic, if you look up 'undescended testicles in dogs', or 'cryptorchidism'; just looking at 
http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-advice-online.com/cryptorchidism.html#testis-drop
I wondered why it was necessary to neuter quite yet? There seem to be cases of late descents&#8230;.might be worth investigating? I'm sure others on the forum will have some good advice, mine is entirely second hand and internet accessed&#8230;


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## Den&Barb (Dec 6, 2013)

Being in the same position as Lalla, I have finally concluded this is what will be done. We already canceled our appointment for spay surgery that was scheduled for this Friday. We will wait for probably 2 heats then have Ginger go through a Laparoscopic Spay (if at all) but leaning towards doing it then.
This has been quite nerve racking and since I did all the research (Den), Barb and I have had a few go arounds but we now both agree with this decision.:clap2:


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Den&Barb said:


> Being in the same position as Lalla, I have finally concluded this is what will be done. We already canceled our appointment for spay surgery that was scheduled for this Friday. We will wait for probably 2 heats then have Ginger go through a Laparoscopic Spay (if at all) but leaning towards doing it then.
> This has been quite nerve racking and since I did all the research (Den), Barb and I have had a few go arounds but we now both agree with this decision.:clap2:


It's immensely stressful, isn't it, finding a path through the conflicting advice; I do hope you are able to relax a bit now you've made what I personally think (as you know) is the right decision. I've just watched Dr Becker, a vet, on the whole topic, which has reinforced my original thinking and made me all the more wary. Its on YouTube at 



She's really interesting on diet, too (DaveT has posted links on the thread "Primal or Ziwipeak"); her take on how vets generally give advice is enough to make one really careful about taking it. Very glad you both now agree, and for what it's worth, I'm with you!


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## Den&Barb (Dec 6, 2013)

I also posted that video yesterday in the thread "To spay or Not Spay"


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## fandances (Jul 4, 2013)

Thanks Lalla for the link... very informative article. It seems it is in line with what our vet is telling me -- that at 6 months in small breeds, the undescended testicle is unlikely to make an appearance and that the cancer risk goes up in that situation. Our vet's ideal window for neutering him is 6-9 months so I'd be taking him in at 8 months, 1 week. He says the longer it goes on, the harder his job could be, which of course could be harder on the pup. Sometimes he finds it easily but others are more difficult - it just depends where it wound up. 
Ugh, a bit nervous about it in any case!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

fandances said:


> Thanks Lalla for the link... very informative article. It seems it is in line with what our vet is telling me -- that at 6 months in small breeds, the undescended testicle is unlikely to make an appearance and that the cancer risk goes up in that situation. Our vet's ideal window for neutering him is 6-9 months so I'd be taking him in at 8 months, 1 week. He says the longer it goes on, the harder his job could be, which of course could be harder on the pup. Sometimes he finds it easily but others are more difficult - it just depends where it wound up.
> Ugh, a bit nervous about it in any case!


Entirely understand your nervousness, I hate doing these things, too, they are so stressful. I've not had your particular problem, and only had a normal neuter for Tycho, my male Coton; my first Coton was spayed but that was the least of her problems - I had two years of twice-weekly vet visits with her when she got a horrible, rare and eventually fatal disease. I learned to think of vet visits as something positive, something that was making things better, not just there to make me wretched and anxious. A bit of a Cognitive Behaviour Therapy re-think, to get myself off my little hamster-wheel of winding myself up with my own negative thoughts. It worked, more or less. Post-operative caring for a dog, especially a hyper puppy, is a bit tough, but it's not the end of the world. With both dogs I took advice from a breeder friend and put them in baby-grows (onesies); it really helped with keeping them from worrying away at stitches or wounds. Glad you found the article interesting and your vet sounds sensible, so you are in good hands. I don't know your pup's name, but Cuba and Tycho say 'good luck, you'll be FINE', and I say the same to you, fandances!!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Den&Barb said:


> I also posted that video yesterday in the thread "To spay or Not Spay"


Good idea; it's a useful talk, isn't it. It does worry me how dogmatic [sic] vets are on this subject; she's so good on diet, too, another subject that really bothers me re vets. I don't know about in the States, but in the UK vets are lobbied at vet school by dog-food manufacturers and even get some of their tuition fees paid if they guarantee that they will display, promote and sell a particular product once they are in practice. It really is appalling. Can you imagine if doctors' surgeries displayed cans of particular baby food because they'd been helped through med school by a particular company? We'd be up in arms!


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## Den&Barb (Dec 6, 2013)

Some doctors are definitely influenced by pharmaceutical companies. It's pathetic. You really have to be your own advocate in everything you do!
As far as making the right decisions on health care for your animals, all one can do is stay informed from "reliable" sources, study the stats and make the best informed choice you can. It's always going to be a roll of the dice. Even breed specific stats have a range of positive and negative results. You can never be absolutely sure of individual results. That pretty much pertains to every choice we make in life.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Den&Barb said:


> Some doctors are definitely influenced by pharmaceutical companies. It's pathetic. You really have to be your own advocate in everything you do!
> As far as making the right decisions on health care for your animals, all one can do is stay informed from "reliable" sources, study the stats and make the best informed choice you can. It's always going to be a roll of the dice. Even breed specific stats have a range of positive and negative results. You can never be absolutely sure of individual results. That pretty much pertains to every choice we make in life.


Yup. But it doesn't half help to have the people on this forum to run stuff past, to have sensible advice given and experience brought to bear on difficult subjects. To have this 'family' as a sounding board to run ones own thoughts and anxieties, tentative decisions and worries past- I've found it so incredibly supportive here. I do hope you two do, too.


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## Den&Barb (Dec 6, 2013)

Absolutely. This site is a great place for support and suggestion. Even when "opinions" are at odds, it's all "Good Food For Thought".


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Den&Barb said:


> Absolutely. This site is a great place for support and suggestion. Even when "opinions" are at odds, it's all "Good Food For Thought".


&#8230;as long as Food isn't the current Thought and opinions are taken to new odds!!


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## fandances (Jul 4, 2013)

Lalla said:


> Entirely understand your nervousness, I hate doing these things, too, they are so stressful. I've not had your particular problem, and only had a normal neuter for Tycho, my male Coton; my first Coton was spayed but that was the least of her problems - I had two years of twice-weekly vet visits with her when she got a horrible, rare and eventually fatal disease. I learned to think of vet visits as something positive, something that was making things better, not just there to make me wretched and anxious. A bit of a Cognitive Behaviour Therapy re-think, to get myself off my little hamster-wheel of winding myself up with my own negative thoughts. It worked, more or less. Post-operative caring for a dog, especially a hyper puppy, is a bit tough, but it's not the end of the world. With both dogs I took advice from a breeder friend and put them in baby-grows (onesies); it really helped with keeping them from worrying away at stitches or wounds. Glad you found the article interesting and your vet sounds sensible, so you are in good hands. I don't know your pup's name, but Cuba and Tycho say 'good luck, you'll be FINE', and I say the same to you, fandances!!


Onesies! What a great idea! Thank you.
And I will keep repeating "vets are good, vets are good" 

(and sorry about your experience with your first Coton, how stressful and sad that must have been).


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

fandances said:


> Onesies! What a great idea! Thank you.
> And I will keep repeating "vets are good, vets are good"
> 
> (and sorry about your experience with your first Coton, how stressful and sad that must have been).


You might have to cut a hole for a tail! But it is quite useful and if you are lucky and they tolerate being dressed up like a baby it's easier than those awful Elizabethan collars.

Yes, the Pamba illness was awful, but at least I know I could make a good veterinary nurse if I had to! I'm really good at giving injections now&#8230;.it's taken me six years to be able to get another puppy - I got Cuba this summer and Tychy is now nearly 7; best thing I've ever done, he's taken on a new lease of life and is like a puppy again himself, playfulness-wise. Such happiness to see them rough and tumble together.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> You might have to cut a hole for a tail! But it is quite useful and if you are lucky and they tolerate being dressed up like a baby it's easier than those awful Elizabethan collars.


You don't even need to cut a hole&#8230; just put it on backwards, and snap the outer snaps to either side of the tail, leaving the center snap open!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> You don't even need to cut a hole&#8230; just put it on backwards, and snap the outer snaps to either side of the tail, leaving the center snap open!


Duh! Of course, why not? Maybe I did that and have just mis-remembered, it's a while ago now!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> Duh! Of course, why not? Maybe I did that and have just mis-remembered, it's a while ago now!!


:tea:


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

This thread began a long time ago now, but is so full of interesting stuff that I thought I'd post here rather than starting a new one - some new people might be interested in the older posts? 
Anyway, the point of adding to it was that I'm beginning to notice the signs of Cuba's revving up for her first season, and wanted to say how glad I am I decided NOT to take my vet's advice and spay before that. If I had, I'd have been obliged to do so before she reached 6 months old, in case she came into season bang on predicted schedule. She is now nearly 11 months old, and would, had I taken that advice, have missed nearly five months of growth, growth hormones, and general maturing that would have been different post spay. I am now thinking seriously of waiting until after her second season, if I spay her at all (if my breeder agrees); the statistics don't seem to me to warrant it, IF one can manage seasons. I'll wait and see how they affect her and our life together, and take it from there, if my breeder is happy with the plan. I know my vet will NOT be!


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## pihler (Dec 13, 2013)

We too are trying to decide whether or not to spay our pup at 6 months or wait the year as advised by the breeder. Our breeder said it's better because spaying early removes the growth hormones along with the sex hormones. Our vet said that waiting a year and letting her go through her first heat makes the surgery harder on the dog not to mention more costly? There are so many differences of opinions, it makes it hard to know what to do not to mention the breeders guarantee states it will not be honored if spaying is done earlier than at a year old!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

I honestly think your breeder is right and your vet is wrong. Have a look, if you want to see what happens in a season, at my thread "Cuba's First Season Diary"; it is SO easy to manage. I am SO glad I didn't follow my vet's advice, and he has never said that it was harder to do later; in many ways it's easier in that you have a less frantic puppy to deal with post op. I am absolutely convinced now, having done a mass of research, (and being married to a biologist, which helps point me in the direction of where to find that research, and then helps me to analyse it properly) that the growth hormone issue is much, much more important than the relatively tiny mammary tumour issue. ALL dogs need the growth hormone time; very few Havanese ever get mammary tumours, and even across ALL breeds the stats are low. If I'd neutered Cuba before 6 months I'd have missed four months of growth hormone (her first season has only just begun and she is now nearly eleven months old). So, well, anyway, that's my personal opinion, but based now on really quite a lot of hard evidence, pihler.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

pihler said:


> We too are trying to decide whether or not to spay our pup at 6 months or wait the year as advised by the breeder. Our breeder said it's better because spaying early removes the growth hormones along with the sex hormones. Our vet said that waiting a year and letting her go through her first heat makes the surgery harder on the dog not to mention more costly? There are so many differences of opinions, it makes it hard to know what to do not to mention the breeders guarantee states it will not be honored if spaying is done earlier than at a year old!


I have never heard that it is harder or more expensive after their first heat&#8230; Only if you want to spay them when they are IN heat. That, you should really avoid, but it IS easy to avoid it. Simply wait until the heat is over, then schedule the surgery for a few weeks later.


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## pihler (Dec 13, 2013)

Thanks Lalla and Krandall for your advice. After reading all the posts on here for and against spaying before they are 1 year old, I think I will wait until Sofie is a year old and gone through her first heat. It does make sense to me about the growth hormones but I think the vet mentioning the mammary cancer scared me a bit? I'm hoping that I can find a vet that will do the more minor procedure as opposed to removing her uterus and ovaries. I asked my vet why they cannot just tie her tubes like they do with human females and she said that removing the uterus and the ovaries is how they do it? Doesn't make sense to me!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

pihler said:


> Thanks Lalla and Krandall for your advice. After reading all the posts on here for and against spaying before they are 1 year old, I think I will wait until Sofie is a year old and gone through her first heat. It does make sense to me about the growth hormones but I think the vet mentioning the mammary cancer scared me a bit? I'm hoping that I can find a vet that will do the more minor procedure as opposed to removing her uterus and ovaries. I asked my vet why they cannot just tie her tubes like they do with human females and she said that removing the uterus and the ovaries is how they do it? Doesn't make sense to me!!


I have never heard of anyone doing a tubal ligation, (tying the tubes) but many people, these days are opting for an ovarectomy. This is where the uterus is left in place, and just the ovaries are removed via laproscopy. This has the advantage of being less invasive, so requiring less recuperation time. It also eliminates the possibility of post spay incontinence, which is a not terribly uncommon side effect of the traditional spay procedure. Ovarectomies still tend to be more expensive than traditional spays, because less vets are familiar with the surgery and have the tools for laparoscopic surgery.

As far as mammary cancer is concerned, yes, statistically, there is a SLIGHTLY greater risk of an unspayed female getting mammary cancer at some point. But they are not usually talking about dogs spayed after their first heat, they are talking about dogs who are several years old when they are spayed or never spayed. But even though the chances are higher for an unspayed female, it is still a low incidence cancer, and not common in Havanese.

What they also don't tell you in the early spay propaganda is that while early(ish) spay may be protective against some forms of cancer, early spay and neuter makes other, much more aggressive, really deadly cancers much MORE common. Mammary cancer is relatively treatable if it is caught early.

There is a lot to think about, and the best answer is not the same for every dog in every home. You really need to do your research thoroughly before making a decision&#8230; and fortunately, at your girl's age, you certainly have time!!!


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## Den&Barb (Dec 6, 2013)

It makes more sense to me to do a tubal ligation, but they don't do them. I really don't understand why this has not come about, but I'm not a vet. Ovarectomies cost about 5X as much as a routine spay.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Den&Barb said:


> It makes more sense to me to do a tubal ligation, but they don't do them. I really don't understand why this has not come about, but I'm not a vet. Ovarectomies cost about 5X as much as a routine spay.


Depending on your location. Here in MA, an ovarectomy is more expensive, but notanywhere near THAT much more.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> I have never heard of anyone doing a tubal ligation, (tying the tubes) but many people, these days are opting for an ovarectomy. This is where the uterus is left in place, and just the ovaries are removed via laproscopy. This has the advantage of being less invasive, so requiring less recuperation time. It also eliminates the possibility of post spay incontinence, which is a not terribly uncommon side effect of the traditional spay procedure. Ovarectomies still tend to be more expensive than traditional spays, because less vets are familiar with the survey and have the tools for laparoscopic surgery.
> 
> As far as mammary cancer is concerned, yes, statistically, there is a SLIGHTLY greater risk of an unsprayed female getting mammary cancer at some point. But they are not usually talking about dogs spayed after their first heat, they are talking about dogs who are several years old when they re spayed or never spayed. But even though the chances are higher for an unsprayed female, it is still a low incidence cancer, and not common in Havanese.
> 
> ...


That is the best advice-summary you'll find, pihler. Karen is spot on, as always, and absolutely right, too, that each individual (dog and owner) has to be thought of specifically. You can only take on board all the statistics, try and digest them and then decide for yourself with that information assimilated. Ovariectomy in the UK is a bit more expensive than a traditional spay, but absolutely NOT six times as much; as far as I am concerned I would rather spend my money on a dog I've invested time and money on in the first place and save money I might have to spend on vet fees later - an unquantifiable figure, but philosophically sound, not to mention avoiding at all costs the threat of incontinence!! I've spent two years with a desperately ill Coton who was incontinent for most of that time and I'd prefer not to have to cope with that again if I can avoid it. I'd rather spend my money to save my dog any pain that I can, too, and shorten the recuperation time. We all have to make budgetary decisions. I'm totally happy to forgo a holiday, or an outing, or whatever things I need to forgo to save enough for the laparascopic spay, but appreciate that that's entirely my decision - I am not trying to make anyone else feel that they need to give up things that are important to them; it's just that for me personally my dogs are more important than holidays (actually, I rather loathe holidays, so it's hardly a sacrifice, and does wonders to justify expenses all over the place on other things!! I take about one rather fancy holiday a decade and justify THAT, too, with this roundabout accounting method!!)

My understanding is that tubal ligation simply is not an option physiologically - we are dealing with a different animal to us, maybe the tubes just aren't ligate-able?


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Here's a really interesting article that I've just been sent:

http://www.thedogdaily.com/health/safety/dog_spaying/index.html#axzz2s9jc6KD

opens up the debate in all sorts of new ways?


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