# your thoughts on home cooked diet vs. commerical dog food



## mswhav

Hi everyone,

My havanese is a very picky eater. I have tried all sorts of dog food brands with him (wet and dry). He usually gives it a try once or twice, but after that, he is over it and he goes on a hunger strike (he once went 5 days without eating because we wouldn't give him anything else other than kibbles). 

Then a month ago, I decided to just feed him a home cook diet and he loves it! He never gets bored and he cleans up the bowl. I read up on a lot of ingredients to make sure I feed him only ingredients that is good for him. A usual meal would be boiled chicken, chopped carrots, green beans (no additives anything, not even salt). Sometimes I replace the chicken with baked salmon and the vegetables with something else (canned pumpkin, sweet potatoes, bok choy, kale, spinach, broccoli, blueberries, apple) I occasionally give him fat free plain yogurt or cottage cheese for calcium.

I have been feeding him a variation of these food for about a month now and he loves it and licks his bowl clean. He also looks really good - no health issues or bathroom issues. No diarrhea ever! 

I keep reading that the food needs to be complete and balanced, and I wonder whether I am feeding him a "complete and balanced" meal but what does that even mean? I look at the kibble that I got him and then the food that I made, and I am not trying to be immodest, but there is no way that kibble that sits on the shelf for months and months looks more nutritious than the natural, organic ingredients I feed him. It is like feeding a human total raisin brand all their life instead of eating a varied diet of good, healthy ingredients. (I stress varied and healthy...obviously a lot of people eat very poorly). 

I am a bit skeptical of commercial dog food, simply for the fact that it is processed and made to last a REALLY Loooooonnnggggg time on the shelf - how can food like that be good for you? I also know that a lot of commercial dog food use subpar animal flesh (not that human-grade animal flesh is all that great, which is why I am a vegan). Knowing all the antibiotics and crap that goes into the meat and the worse parts go into dog food - it pretty much makes me doubt that commercial dog food is really all that great (even the premium ones). 

I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on homecooked vs. commercial dog food. Please share your thoughts.


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## showelott

I feed my family all organic and when we get our new puppy I plan on feeding him the Bones and Raw Food (BARF) diet. 10 years ago I had a Portuguese water dog and fed her food that I made by hand - I'm thrilled to discover that now they have a lot more raw food choices then they did back then. My bible was the book Bones and raw food by Ian Dunbar. (an australian vet). Friends also liked the book dr pitcairn's natural food for dogs and cats.

You need to be careful of the calcium and potassium balance of what you are feeding ( I think - it was a long time ago). I also seem to remember something about dogs can't digest vegetables directly - which is why I juiced vegetables for Izzy and gave her a couple of tablespoons of veggie with her meal. I mostly fed raw meaty bones - chicken wings and backs and turkey necks and she also got a variety of whole fish (yes, heads and all) weekly. And a couple of whole raw eggs with the shells. I had a terrific breeder and terrific holistic vet who guided me along. I did blood work twice a year at a minimum to make sure her diet was balanced

Now, with a husband and a toddler in my life, I'll probably choose to feed some sort of frozen raw food patties that already has everything ground up in it.


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## davetgabby

good for you. You're totally correct, home cooked is the healthiest way to go. I would however consult with a nutritionist to get everything right and balanced. A number of us on here use a lady named Sabine from [email protected] She is very reasonable. There are usually a couple of suppliments involved as well.


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## davetgabby

showelott said:


> I feed my family all organic and when we get our new puppy I plan on feeding him the Bones and Raw Food (BARF) diet. 10 years ago I had a Portuguese water dog and fed her food that I made by hand - I'm thrilled to discover that now they have a lot more raw food choices then they did back then. My bible was the book Bones and raw food by Ian Dunbar. (an australian vet). Friends also liked the book dr pitcairn's natural food for dogs and cats.
> 
> You need to be careful of the calcium and potassium balance of what you are feeding ( I think - it was a long time ago). I also seem to remember something about dogs can't digest vegetables directly - which is why I juiced vegetables for Izzy and gave her a couple of tablespoons of veggie with her meal. I mostly fed raw meaty bones - chicken wings and backs and turkey necks and she also got a variety of whole fish (yes, heads and all) weekly. And a couple of whole raw eggs with the shells. I had a terrific breeder and terrific holistic vet who guided me along. I did blood work twice a year at a minimum to make sure her diet was balanced
> 
> Now, with a husband and a toddler in my life, I'll probably choose to feed some sort of frozen raw food patties that already has everything ground up in it.


hi and welcome to the forum . Good for you too. The "BARF" diet, an acronym for Biologically Appropriate Raw Food or Bones And Raw Food was created by Ian Billinghurst. The acronym was coined by Debra Tripp. Ian Dunbar is from Great Britain. One thing with these raw commercial diets is that they are not totally balanced either. Suppliments should be added. Yes, since those foods are formulated under the exact same rules as dry food - short in certain nutrients


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## mswhav

I won't ever feed my dog a raw diet. I know there is a lot of debate on this since a lot of people really believe it is the best diet, but the animal flesh from the factory farms these days are not the same as the animal flesh killed by the dog's ancestors, wolves, in the past. The animal flesh now are diseased - think about it, don't you wash your hands even after just _touching _chicken?

Really, those of you feeding them raw animal flesh should research where these animals come from before feeding them to your dog - it is not safe. I recommend reading "Eating Animals" by Jonathan Saffran Foer - he wrote this book because he was on the brink of fatherhood and was faced with making dietary decisions for his child, which is not unlike many of us for our dear dogs.

I will give my havanese cooked chicken, salmon and turkey, but never raw. I will give him raw, chopped veggies, which is very good for him.


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## davetgabby

I won't get into that debate but chopped veggies will do very little for your dogs nutritionally. They need to be cooked or pureed.


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## Missy

As Dave said, every dog is different. And every commercial food and home cooked recipe is different. If you want to go th home cooked route, don't go it alone. You will need a pro to help you create a well balanced recipe and help you tweak it til it is right for your pup. As some one who failed home cooked (and so did my dog... Turned outhe was allergic to supplements and I could not handle a more complicated recipe that didn't require them.) I would say truly look at the time it will take you...will you be able to sustain it... Will you want to after the novelty wears off... Or your finicky little one turns his nose up at ven your home cooked fare? 

There is no question that home cooked is healthier in the long run, but If you answer 
your pups finickiness with better and better food choices you could create more of a problem. How old is your dog? Puppies like to play you, to see what they can get away with.  And they are experts at it. Especially our beloved Havanese. 

If you want to and have time and energy and the will to consult a pro...I would say go for it. But I would also consider getting your pup (especially if it is a puppy, and you ae setting up tye rules of the house) to eat what ever it is you put down when you put it down. I played the the game with my first dog, Jasper. Finally I realized he was getting too much food and too many treats and he could afford to be picky with his mealtimes. Don't get me wrong, my boys are plenty spoiled! They now eat commercial raw... My allergic boy Cash gets Bison. So I am not condemning going the mile for our pets... I just think it is a big decision.


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## lanabanana

*I'm jumping on the bandwagon!*

I think I am ready to begin home cooking and ordered this today.





It seems like a place to start and apparently contains recipes and directions on supplements. I'll report back once I actually make my first batch and the pups are able to try it.

Alanna


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## atsilvers27

If going the home cooked way, beware of doing it yourself as your dog may end up lacking in key vitamins and minerals. Most of the dogs I've come across that were on a home cooked diet had horrible digestion issues (obviously not planned well). Raw diets, I second whoever said to be wary of the quality of meat. If I had the time and money to home cook for my dog I would, but I don't so she gets a high quality kibble with a bit of protein and veggies that we have for dinner.


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## Thumper

I am all for the home cooked route, however, you have to be vigilent with the supplements, they often get picky and try to eat around the vegetables, unless you sometimes puree them like baby food, but then you have to switch up the vegetables because they have different key nutrients. I have alot of vitamins and vitamin powders that I use, flax, olive oil, different little things she'll get each meal and so far her health has been great. You have to do your research and be mindful of what doesn't sit well with them. Gucci's tummy gets upset with turkey and buffalo, so we mainly do lamb, chicken and sometimes venison if I can get my hands on it, with cous cous, rice (not a lot, I worry about the natural arsenic) fresh potatoes mashed (she loves them), crushed up cheerios is another grain I'll use (which has vitamins added, but I only do those once every 2-3 weeks)

When you make the commitment, know that you'll be doing butt baths for a few weeks/month until the adjust their water intake down. They drink alot more water when they eat dry kibble, it would be like a human only living off of Fritos and Tostitos with vitamin powder in it, so they drink more to digest it, and with the home cooked, they get more water through food source, so for awhile, they will have loose stools until they naturally just start craving less water ..that was one of the helpful things I learned in the home cooked group I joined when I started out, had I not known that...I probably would've thought she was allergic to everything I was feeding her.

I do not mind cooking for my dog, I cook for my DH, my kids, everyone else..I just do her cooking the same time I do the family cooking, since she flips her nose up on food that is frozen, I usually make it to last 2-3 days.

Kara


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## davetgabby

lanabanana said:


> I think I am ready to begin home cooking and ordered this today.
> Dr. Pitcairn's New Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs and Cats: Richard H. Pitcairn, Susan Hubble Pitcairn: 9781579549732: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> It seems like a place to start and apparently contains recipes and directions on supplements. I'll report back once I actually make my first batch and the pups are able to try it.
> 
> Alanna


good book


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## lanabanana

Thumper said:


> I am all for the home cooked route, however, you have to be vigilent with the supplements, they often get picky and try to eat around the vegetables, unless you sometimes puree them like baby food, but then you have to switch up the vegetables because they have different key nutrients. I have alot of vitamins and vitamin powders that I use, flax, olive oil, different little things she'll get each meal and so far her health has been great. You have to do your research and be mindful of what doesn't sit well with them. Gucci's tummy gets upset with turkey and buffalo, so we mainly do lamb, chicken and sometimes venison if I can get my hands on it, with cous cous, rice (not a lot, I worry about the natural arsenic) fresh potatoes mashed (she loves them), crushed up cheerios is another grain I'll use (which has vitamins added, but I only do those once every 2-3 weeks)
> 
> When you make the commitment, know that you'll be doing butt baths for a few weeks/month until the adjust their water intake down. They drink alot more water when they eat dry kibble, it would be like a human only living off of Fritos and Tostitos with vitamin powder in it, so they drink more to digest it, and with the home cooked, they get more water through food source, so for awhile, they will have loose stools until they naturally just start craving less water ..that was one of the helpful things I learned in the home cooked group I joined when I started out, had I not known that...I probably would've thought she was allergic to everything I was feeding her.
> 
> I do not mind cooking for my dog, I cook for my DH, my kids, everyone else..I just do her cooking the same time I do the family cooking, since she flips her nose up on food that is frozen, I usually make it to last 2-3 days.
> 
> Kara


Can you point me toward the "home cooked group"??? Is it a yahoo group?


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## davetgabby

I would not go by what other people feed their dogs. Ask Tammy what she recommends.


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## TilliesMom

davetgabby said:


> I would not go by what other people feed their dogs. Ask Tammy what she recommends.


uhhhhhh... what DO I recommend? 

I think every person needs to make the desicion on how and what to feed thier pet based on thier own feelings, education, time and desire. eace:


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## davetgabby

TilliesMom said:


> uhhhhhh... what DO I recommend?
> 
> I think every person needs to make the desicion on how and what to feed thier pet based on thier own feelings, education, time and desire. eace:


right on, but we're talking about what to do once you decide to do home cooking.


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## TilliesMom

oooooooohhhhh.... talk to Sabine.


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## mswhav

My havanese is almost 3 years old, so he's not a puppy anymore. I don't think he is playing me. He just really hates kibbles. I bought another bag of high quality kibbles 2 weeks ago and he ate it once, but by the second dinner, he was over it and wouldn't eat anymore. By contrast, when I put down the homecooked food, he is all over it and licked the bowl clean. I know that some people say to starve the dog until he eats ("dogs will eat when they are hungry" etc.), but it really makes me sad watching him - like I wrote in my original post, he once went 5 days without eating anything because we didn't give him anything but kibble. I don't think that is any way to feed my dog. I mean, sure, he will eat it when he is starving, but I really don't like the sound of that - he hates kibble so much that he would rather starve himself before eating it, that bums me out.

Anyway, I have been pureeing his veggies with a blender and mixing it with cooked meat. So far, it's working really well and he likes his food. Also, it doesn't take me that long to make the food since I puree the veggies with a blender and I usually do a large amount and do one preparation for a few days. Freeze whatever I can't use within 3-4 days. *My question now is: since many of you mentioned that different dogs need different things (which I totally agree), how do you know that you are feeding a complete and balanced diet then? is there some kind of test I can ask my vet to do? *I read someone did blood tests...will that show me if he is getting all his nutrients?

I don't have any issue so far with what I am feeding my dog - no diarrhea or runny stool like some of you have mentioned - his fur/hair looks really healthy and very soft. He doesn't seem any less energetic. So, I'm not sure what else to be wary of. The only issue that I have now is that my little boy always asks for seconds. ;-)


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## davetgabby

mswhav said:


> My havanese is almost 3 years old, so he's not a puppy anymore. I don't think he is playing me. He just really hates kibbles. I bought another bag of high quality kibbles 2 weeks ago and he ate it once, but by the second dinner, he was over it and wouldn't eat anymore. By contrast, when I put down the homecooked food, he is all over it and licked the bowl clean. I know that some people say to starve the dog until he eats ("dogs will eat when they are hungry" etc.), but it really makes me sad watching him - like I wrote in my original post, he once went 5 days without eating anything because we didn't give him anything but kibble. I don't think that is any way to feed my dog. I mean, sure, he will eat it when he is starving, but I really don't like the sound of that - he hates kibble so much that he would rather starve himself before eating it, that bums me out.
> 
> Anyway, I have been pureeing his veggies with a blender and mixing it with cooked meat. So far, it's working really well and he likes his food. Also, it doesn't take me that long to make the food since I puree the veggies with a blender and I usually do a large amount and do one preparation for a few days. Freeze whatever I can't use within 3-4 days. *My question now is: since many of you mentioned that different dogs need different things (which I totally agree), how do you know that you are feeding a complete and balanced diet then? is there some kind of test I can ask my vet to do? *I read someone did blood tests...will that show me if he is getting all his nutrients?
> 
> I don't have any issue so far with what I am feeding my dog - no diarrhea or runny stool like some of you have mentioned - his fur/hair looks really healthy and very soft. He doesn't seem any less energetic. So, I'm not sure what else to be wary of. The only issue that I have now is that my little boy always asks for seconds. ;-)


good question , you don't . I strongly recommed that you get a consultation with a nutritionist. Sabine ,at Better Dog Care does it for a very reasonable fee. You fill out a questionaire online and she will calculate everything right down to the no. of calories. One can do it from certain books but that is not personalized like it would be with her. She has helped dozens of people on here. ,from kibble diets to homecooked and raw. She is very helpful down the road if you have questions. Here is her email [email protected] and feel free to check out her website. She is a certified pet nutritionise website is http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=main


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## TilliesMom

ya, it sounds like you are definitly on the right track with your havs diet!!
But there really is no way to KNOW if it is nutritionally balanced, until years down the road they develop some sort of issue or problem because of lack of a certain nutrient or to MUCH of a nutrient... this is where getting a nutrition consult comes in! 
Check out Dave's link... if you are going homecooking, you really want to make sure your hav is getting everything she needs!!


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## andra

I have an email submitted to her as we speak. I am moving ahead with a consultation as Dionna, yet again, is rejecting her kibble (which I serve in the morning). This is day five or six of kibble rejection and now I have been giving her a sample kibble that I got from the spa/resort where I got the Santa photo. She is eating those kibbles but I am only giving her a very small amount because I was not really sure if they were ok or not. So I went by the vet today to have them review the kibble package and they said it was fine and also gave me a list of others to try. The problem is, she is picky and even when she does eat kibbles, she eventually will stop as time passes and then I am back to square one. Her current kibbles changed their formula and since that happened, she has not been as keen on them. She is eating her home cooked dinner with gusto. Hence me requesting professional guidance  Even if Sabine has a few kibble suggestions, that is fine. I am just at a loss as to how to proceed regarding all of this.

Also, when Dionna gets too hungry, which happens when she does not eat in the morning, she gets a bile/stomach acid build up and she will often end up throwing up by afternoon. So eating in the morning is very important medically for her. So I am hoping that Sabine can come up with some kind of plan for Dionna as she is like my child and I love her dearly!!!!!


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## davetgabby

good stuff, I'm waiting to hear back from her too. She was on holidays so she should be back soon . let us know what route you decide.


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## krandall

andra said:


> I have an email submitted to her as we speak. I am moving ahead with a consultation as Dionna, yet again, is rejecting her kibble (which I serve in the morning). This is day five or six of kibble rejection and now I have been giving her a sample kibble that I got from the spa/resort where I got the Santa photo. She is eating those kibbles but I am only giving her a very small amount because I was not really sure if they were ok or not. So I went by the vet today to have them review the kibble package and they said it was fine and also gave me a list of others to try. The problem is, she is picky and even when she does eat kibbles, she eventually will stop as time passes and then I am back to square one. Her current kibbles changed their formula and since that happened, she has not been as keen on them. She is eating her home cooked dinner with gusto. Hence me requesting professional guidance  Even if Sabine has a few kibble suggestions, that is fine. I am just at a loss as to how to proceed regarding all of this.
> 
> Also, when Dionna gets too hungry, which happens when she does not eat in the morning, she gets a bile/stomach acid build up and she will often end up throwing up by afternoon. So eating in the morning is very important medically for her. So I am hoping that Sabine can come up with some kind of plan for Dionna as she is like my child and I love her dearly!!!!!


If you are home cooking for her in the evening anyway, why not feed her home cooked in the morning too? I can see how she would skip the kibble and hold out for dinner, knowing what's coming later! Cornflakes (or even a nutritionally balanced freeze-dried hiking meal) or a roast beef dinner:juggle:... which do I want...


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## andra

Ha ha ha ....no, I totally agree with you. That is why I am seeking the consult and will follow her guidelines. I actually started the home cooked dinner because of the kibble refusal-too hungry--throwing up bile/stomach acid cycle we were trapped in plus Dionna being too thin, per the vet. I originally was feeding her only kibble but she was failing to thrive, so to speak. I cannot tell you how many different kinds of kibble I have tried.  I was very very desperate (and also a worrier) so I started with the organic chicken breast, boiled and chopped, and served with mashed cooked organic yam and chopped cooked organic broccoli. I serve it on this small square plate and she eats it up with gusto. After all I had been through with the food and throwing up issues, seeing her eat with gusto was a huge victory and relief. Her weight vascilates between 11 and 12 pounds now; the vet wants her at 12 pounds because at 11 she is too thin. 

It seems like since she has been getting the cooked dinner, she has been doing so much better and that her appetite has finally picked up. She is still picky and there is a lot of food that she will just not eat--more that she will refuse than eat, frankly. But, she has taken the occasional plain cooked penne shaped noodle (which I think you recommended Krandall) or small apple sliver. She gets a probiotic sprinkle on her cooked food, too. But again, whatever Sabine recommends, I will take into serious consideration. Because Dionna is my furbaby and I love her like a child.


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## Luciledodd

Rosie gets a mixture of home-cooked and canned, and kibble. Depending on what I am cooking, I prepare enough for her and now Jethro (did you ever have a cat that ate table food). Sometimes I give Rosie Raw meat as I am chopping it up for something. Scrambled eggs etc. I always mix whatever I am giveing her and Jethro with their kibble. There are days that I don't cook and if they are hungry they will eat just the plain kibble or kibble mixed with canned. Must be working for them as Jethro the cat is about 2 inches taller than Rosie, but not weighing as much yet. He is going to be a big cat. I don't use supplements or veggies, I trust the canned and kibble to have the right vitamins in them. It has worked for ever animal that I have reared for the last forty years.


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## marlowe'sgirl

Luciledodd said:


> Rosie gets a mixture of home-cooked and canned, and kibble. Depending on what I am cooking, I prepare enough for her and now Jethro (did you ever have a cat that ate table food). Sometimes I give Rosie Raw meat as I am chopping it up for something. Scrambled eggs etc. I always mix whatever I am giveing her and Jethro with their kibble. There are days that I don't cook and if they are hungry they will eat just the plain kibble or kibble mixed with canned. Must be working for them as Jethro the cat is about 2 inches taller than Rosie, but not weighing as much yet. He is going to be a big cat. I don't use supplements or veggies, I trust the canned and kibble to have the right vitamins in them. It has worked for ever animal that I have reared for the last forty years.


Hah - yes! I have a cat who eats table food, dog food, stolen food, you name it. I was free feeding my Hav because he didn't have gobble-it mentality as a pup and it took me awhile to realize my sneaky cat ate most of it. We have finally, with eagle eyes and lots of whining, got our cat to lose her 'puppy' weight. And got Marlowe to eat within 5 mins.

I do kibble 90% of the time because I don't have the time to cook. I did go through a few different ones in a bit of a taste test to see which my Hav likes. He has some preferences, but ultimately the verdict ended up being anything with small dash of shredded cheese. He does get some extra steamed veggies and we use leftover dinner meat (like grilled chicken) in tictac size portions as high value training treats.


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## andra

I wish I could find a kibble that Dionna would consistently eat; I know the kibble has important vitamins and minerals and she is just so picky 

My friend's cat loves human food; in fact he will go to the sink and put his paw down the disposal and 'fish' for anything there


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## luv3havs

*Love my babies, but I don't want to cook for them!*

I'd love to find a kibble that my dogs would really enjoy. I frankly don't want to cook for 4 dogs-our 3 and my daughter's dog who is living here temporarily. I feed them a high quality grain-free kibble and they are healthy, have good skin, coats etc. But I often have to add something to the kibble or they take too much time eating and sometimes refuse to eat it. 
So now I am adding a small amount of wet food (good quality) and mix it to coat the kibble. Or I might scramble some eggs and mix it in with the kibble.
But I would like to find a kibble that they enjoy eating without adding something. Any suggestions for grain-free kibble that your dogs enjoy eating?
Grain-free kibble is expensive, so you'd think they could make it tastier.


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## marlowe'sgirl

My Hav eats Orijen. He like the red meat flavor most, the chicken second, and the fish last. He also liked one of the EVO flavors (which escapes me now) and Fromm's grain-free. I ordered a sampler pack from Luke's All Natural Pet Food: http://www.lukesallnatural.com/ and had a week of taste testing. Yeah, his poop was a little runny with the food switching, but we found his favorites.


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## luv3havs

Thanks, I'll order some too! Hope they like at least one of the flavors.


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## Pixiesmom

Did they like the new kibble? Pixie has eaten Wilderness kibble for 4 years now. She'll have a little in the morning, eat a few bites of Merrick canned in the evening, then she'll go back to eating a few bites of the kibble. She does pick out the lifesource bits in it though and leave them scattered all over the house. She never seems to tire of it.


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## Louella

I have been feeding Teddi, almost 4 months, cooked rice and boiled hamburger. I rinse the mixture when it is finished cooking to get rid of the excess fat from the meat. Teddi gobbles it up. Teddi was originally on this diet because she had diaherra. I talked to her vet and he said his dog food is more balanced. I would like to continue with the rice and hamburger with veggies but what happens when you travel, or when you have to kennel your dog? That might be a problem. What do you think?


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## davetgabby

Louella said:


> I have been feeding Teddi, almost 4 months, cooked rice and boiled hamburger. I rinse the mixture when it is finished cooking to get rid of the excess fat from the meat. Teddi gobbles it up. Teddi was originally on this diet because she had diaherra. I talked to her vet and he said his dog food is more balanced. I would like to continue with the rice and hamburger with veggies but what happens when you travel, or when you have to kennel your dog? That might be a problem. What do you think?


that would be fine short term. But it probably is not balanced. That's why ,if you are going to home cook on a regular basis I recommend a nutritionist.


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## 1stladysoul

I am currently feeding Skye the Grandma Lucy's Artisan Pre-Mix dog food prepared with lightly browned ground chuck. After a bad experience using Blue Buffalo Puppy Food, I wanted to prepare her food and this was suggested to me by a dog food enthusiast. Has anyone else tried a pre-mix food prepared with regular cooked meat?

Amazon.com: Grandma Lucy's Artisan Grain-Free Premix Dog Food, 3-Pound Bag: Pet Supplies


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## Miss Paige

I just booked a consult with Sabine. I only feed home cooked for a month then cycle them to raw. I know with Sabine's help they can stay on home cooked for a longer time frame.


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## Nancy Collins

I just recently started homecooking for my 3 again. This book is by far the easiest homecooked diet I have found. The only supplements needed based on this diet are digestive enzymes, calcium and cod liver oil. I follow Susan Thixton's reviews of dog foods and recently bought her 2013 approved list....then decided to try cooking for them again. Based on this book the key to complete nutrition is rotating through ALL the recipes. Dinner PAWsible: A cookbook for healthy, nutritious meals for cats and dogs.: Dr. Cathy Alinovi DVM, Susan Thixton: 9781463605490: Amazon.com: Books


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## Nancy Collins

a little about the author...."Dinner PAWsible is a collection of 22 cat food recipes, 29 dog food recipes and two healthy treats based on the National Research Council requirements for dogs and cats; the same organization that commercial pet food nutritional foundations are based on. Dinner PAWsible is not only veterinarian recommended, it was co-authored by a veterinarian certified in food therapy! Dr. Cathy Alinovi DVM is trained in a variety of alternative and holistic methods including veterinary food therapy; her practice is located in central Indiana. Nutrition is the heart of every exam, curing over 80% of all problems. Co-author Susan Thixton is a leading pet food safety advocate whose website, TruthaboutPetFood.com helps to provide pet food education to a world of pet parents."


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## davetgabby

Miss Paige said:


> I just booked a consult with Sabine. I only feed home cooked for a month then cycle them to raw. I know with Sabine's help they can stay on home cooked for a longer time frame.


that's the way to go , a personalized plan. Hats off Pat.


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## Karen Collins

Just my two cents......I have homecooked for my dogs off and on over the years. I usually have to stop for one reason or another. I LOVE feeding my dogs real food. And I'm not trying to take away from anyone's business, but.......I have successfully raised 2 litters by weaning them to my home cooked food and they were and are fat, healthy and happy. With that said, it's not really rocket science. If you are qualified to cook for your self and your own family, you are qualified to cook for beloved pooch. I promise!! There are only a few foods that you shouldn't feed to your dog, which you can find on a google search. Just use common sense and good judgment. Feed them what you are eating. I assure you they will thrive. I'm only posting this thread to bring some balance to the consensus of using a pricey consultant. If you can afford it and it gives you more confidence, go right ahead and hire a consultant. But for those that can't afford to pay for advice, I promise you won't hurt your dog if you just feed him what you are eating. Unless you're eating at Mickey D's 3 times a day, in which case you may die before your pet. Sorry, that was inappropriate humor.


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## davetgabby

have to disagree with you Karen , . Sabine says people in general do a fair job at it but far from ideal.


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## Karen Collins

I would have been disappointed if you hadn't disagreed Dave.


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## davetgabby




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## juliav

Karen Collins said:


> Just my two cents......I have homecooked for my dogs off and on over the years. I usually have to stop for one reason or another. I LOVE feeding my dogs real food. And I'm not trying to take away from anyone's business, but.......I have successfully raised 2 litters by weaning them to my home cooked food and they were and are fat, healthy and happy. With that said, it's not really rocket science. If you are qualified to cook for your self and your own family, you are qualified to cook for beloved pooch. I promise!! There are only a few foods that you shouldn't feed to your dog, which you can find on a google search. Just use common sense and good judgment. Feed them what you are eating. I assure you they will thrive. I'm only posting this thread to bring some balance to the consensus of using a pricey consultant. If you can afford it and it gives you more confidence, go right ahead and hire a consultant. But for those that can't afford to pay for advice, I promise you won't hurt your dog if you just feed him what you are eating. Unless you're eating at Mickey D's 3 times a day, in which case you may die before your pet. Sorry, that was inappropriate humor.


Thank you Karen!!!! I couldn't agree with you more!!! It always make me chuckle that I need professional help to home cook for my dogs, yet not a single pediatrician ever bothered to educate me on how to feed my precious children. I wasn't required to take a cooking class or attend a single lecture. Ever since a man domesticated a wolf, the dogs were fed the scraps from the table. But only since the advent of the multi million or is it billion dog food industry we have suddenly become unable to properly feed our beloved dog!


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## davetgabby

juliav said:


> Thank you Karen!!!! I couldn't agree with you more!!! It always make me chuckle that I need professional help to home cook for my dogs, yet not a single pediatrician ever bothered to educate me on how to feed my precious children. I wasn't required to take a cooking class or attend a single lecture. Ever since a man domesticated a wolf, the dogs were fed the scraps from the table. But only since the advent of the multi million or is it billion dog food industry we have suddenly become unable to properly feed our beloved dog!


Dogs are quite different in their nutritional requirements than humans. There's a big difference between surviving and thriving. A lot of humans don't even know how to feed themselves properly, what are talking about.?


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## Karen Collins

davetgabby said:


> A lot of humans don't even know how to feed themselves properly, what are talking about.?


Of course, some don't, but my experience is that there are usually other factors than ignorance to account for poor eating. Circumstances, culture, lack of interest.....whatever. But we live in a time of abundant information and no one can truly use ignorance as an excuse.

Bottom-line - the proof is in the pudding. Are your dogs healthy and happy? Mine are.

I used to have to defend my position for homeschooling my children back in the 90's. Now that they are grown, successful well-adjusted adults, no one questions my decision. But I was told constantly back in the day that I was ruining them. They wouldn't be able to function in society. Hogwash! My oldest daughter is intelligent, beautiful, in a happy healthy long-term relationship making 6 figures a year and traveling the world. My middle daughter is blissfully married with her 2nd baby on the way after working for Thomas Keller and Rene Redzeppi in the number 1 restaurants in the world and USA. My youngest daughter and her husband are in full-time ministry serving God and couldn't be happier. Oops, daughters 2 & 3 are also intelligent and beautiful. 

My point is, trust yourself and your instincts. There's more than one way to skin a cat. We should be patient and tolerant of those that choose a different way.

Maybe if we weren't poisoning our animals on monthly basis with vaccines and flea and heartworm treatments, we wouldn't have to have specially formulated food to fight off the illnesses and "allergies" that all the dogs seem to have today. Just saying.

Of course, Dave you know I'm not saying you shouldn't consult a nutritionist. If your pet is not well, by all means seek professional help.:thumb:


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## davetgabby

"Maybe if we weren't poisoning our animals on monthly basis with vaccines and flea and heartworm treatments, we wouldn't have to have specially formulated food to fight off the illnesses and "allergies" that all the dogs seem to have today. Just saying.

Of course, Dave you know I'm not saying you shouldn't consult a nutritionist. If your pet is not well, by all means seek professional help"

I agree with what you're saying Karen, but it's not just the vacs etc that are causing issues , it's food. Most people feed poor food. My problem with Julia's remarks is that she basically is saying people dont' need to worry about what to home cook. That simple isn't true. Yes, your dog won't necessarily die from giving leftovers etc, but like I mentioned , that's a far cry from feeding a balanced and complete diet that dogs should have. Sabine gets all kinds of people who thought they knew how to home cook that found out later ,they were'nt doing it correct. Considering how important it is to feed a dog healthy food , it's a small cost to pay to get it right. Most people think, I"ll give them chicken breast lean and lots of veggies and call it a day. This won't be healthy ,. dogs don't even need veggies . \Your last statement ,is backwards. in my opinion. People should feed their dogs properly and they wouldn't have to seek a professional. And if you don't know what the nutritional requirements for dogs are, learn or find help.


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## juliav

davetgabby said:


> My problem with Julia's remarks is that she basically is saying people dont' need to worry about what to home cook. That simple isn't true. Yes, your dog won't necessarily die from giving leftovers etc, but like I mentioned , that's a far cry from feeding a balanced and complete diet that dogs should have. Sabine gets all kinds of people who thought they knew how to home cook that found out later ,they were'nt doing it correct. Considering how important it is to feed a dog healthy food , it's a small cost to pay to get it right. Most people think, I"ll give them chicken breast lean and lots of veggies and call it a day. This won't be healthy ,. dogs don't even need veggies . Your last statement ,is backwards. in my opinion. People should feed their dogs properly and they wouldn't have to seek a professional. And if you don't know what the nutritional requirements for dogs are, learn or find help.


I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I grew up with my mom feeding our dog and cats "people food", scraps from the table, etc. Our pets weren't vaccinated, didn't go to the vet and lived to be 15+ years of age. Our huge, black russian terrier lived to be 14 or 15.


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## juliav

Karen Collins said:


> Of course, some don't, but my experience is that there are usually other factors than ignorance to account for poor eating. Circumstances, culture, lack of interest.....whatever. But we live in a time of abundant information and no one can truly use ignorance as an excuse.
> 
> Bottom-line - the proof is in the pudding. Are your dogs healthy and happy? Mine are.
> 
> I used to have to defend my position for homeschooling my children back in the 90's. Now that they are grown, successful well-adjusted adults, no one questions my decision. But I was told constantly back in the day that I was ruining them. They wouldn't be able to function in society. Hogwash! My oldest daughter is intelligent, beautiful, in a happy healthy long-term relationship making 6 figures a year and traveling the world. My middle daughter is blissfully married with her 2nd baby on the way after working for Thomas Keller and Rene Redzeppi in the number 1 restaurants in the world and USA. My youngest daughter and her husband are in full-time ministry serving God and couldn't be happier. Oops, daughters 2 & 3 are also intelligent and beautiful.
> 
> My point is, trust yourself and your instincts. There's more than one way to skin a cat. We should be patient and tolerant of those that choose a different way.
> 
> Maybe if we weren't poisoning our animals on monthly basis with vaccines and flea and heartworm treatments, we wouldn't have to have specially formulated food to fight off the illnesses and "allergies" that all the dogs seem to have today. Just saying.
> 
> Of course, Dave you know I'm not saying you shouldn't consult a nutritionist. If your pet is not well, by all means seek professional help.:thumb:


 :amen: Hey Karen, I think I love you!!!!


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## atsilvers27

Just want to chime in my two cents - I think it's a dangerous statement to say, you don't need to pay a professional, just trust yourself and feed your dog whatever you think is right. That's a green light to not at least do proper research and attempt a somewhat balanced approach to home cooking. Someone mentioned a black Russian terrier. Now, how many people happen to have one of those dogs as a pet??? That is a very rare breed, hard to come by and expensive. I BET you, black-russian-terrier-owner, that YOUR pantry is much better stocked than the average person. To say, go ahead and homecook, don't worry, well some people (remember, there are many "lurkers" out there just reading posts), that could be white rice and fried up ground beef. I'm sure my dog would LOVE this dish with a passion, but even still it is inferior and not nearly as healthful as her high quality kibble. In my career as a professional groomer, I have come across DOZENS of poor dogs fed "home cooked" diets, many with horrible diarrhea. I'm sure those diets were not the carefully planned diets. Perhaps not everyone has to pay a consultant, but at least using careful ratios, quality ingredients, and with the guidance of their vet, can give a healthy home cooked meal to their dog.

Oh, and whoever said no one told them how to feed their children, it's called the food pyramid and it's pretty specific. Also, much of the food we feed our children such as milk and cereal are fortified with essential vitamins and minerals. There are countless diseases humans and dogs can get if they are lacking in specific vitamins and minerals. Folic acid? Essential for everyone esp growing fetuses. Vitamin B? The lack of vitamin B (I forget which one) caused one woman featured on Mystery Diagnosis years of gastrointestinal problems. Not enough calcium? You get the idea. Just think of all those poor malnourished children who do not grow as tall as what their genetics would allow. All this nutritional information is provided by science and we have the ability to at least come close to good nutrition for dogs using certain foods and supplements, by saying to just "trust yourself" because every dog is different and every owner is in a different position, I am positive will be a recipe for disaster for some dogs.


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## davetgabby

atsilvers27 said:


> Just want to chime in my two cents - I think it's a dangerous statement to say, you don't need to pay a professional, just trust yourself and feed your dog whatever you think is right. That's a green light to not at least do proper research and attempt a somewhat balanced approach to home cooking. Someone mentioned a black Russian terrier. Now, how many people happen to have one of those dogs as a pet??? That is a very rare breed, hard to come by and expensive. I BET you, black-russian-terrier-owner, that YOUR pantry is much better stocked than the average person. To say, go ahead and homecook, don't worry, well some people (remember, there are many "lurkers" out there just reading posts), that could be white rice and fried up ground beef. I'm sure my dog would LOVE this dish with a passion, but even still it is inferior and not nearly as healthful as her high quality kibble. In my career as a professional groomer, I have come across DOZENS of poor dogs fed "home cooked" diets, many with horrible diarrhea. I'm sure those diets were not the carefully planned diets. Perhaps not everyone has to pay a consultant, but at least using careful ratios, quality ingredients, and with the guidance of their vet, can give a healthy home cooked meal to their dog.
> 
> Oh, and whoever said no one told them how to feed their children, it's called the food pyramid and it's pretty specific. Also, much of the food we feed our children such as milk and cereal are fortified with essential vitamins and minerals. There are countless diseases humans and dogs can get if they are lacking in specific vitamins and minerals. Folic acid? Essential for everyone esp growing fetuses. Vitamin B? The lack of vitamin B (I forget which one) caused one woman featured on Mystery Diagnosis years of gastrointestinal problems. Not enough calcium? You get the idea. Just think of all those poor malnourished children who do not grow as tall as what their genetics would allow. All this nutritional information is provided by science and we have the ability to at least come close to good nutrition for dogs using certain foods and supplements, by saying to just "trust yourself" because every dog is different and every owner is in a different position, I am positive will be a recipe for disaster for some dogs.


well said , thank you.


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## davetgabby

here's a quote from Sabine..."I've always fed __ food to my dog and he did just fine 

While there is nothing wrong with feeding a particular food if your dog does well on it and you feel comfortable feeding it, the question is whether you have a basis of comparison and whether the formulation of the food has changed over time. I have seen the effect a better food can have on my own dog. When I adopted him from the shelter, he was a thin little puppy with a brittle coat and a rather strong "doggie odor". I didn't know better yet, fed an average quality food and thought the change in his appearance was stunning, except for the severe reactions he still showed whenever he picked up the occasional flea and got bitten before it died. He had gained weight, the odor improved and his coat was softer and shinier. I was happy and didn't think that any further improvement was possible - until he had been eating a really high quality food for about a month. His allergy to flea bites disappeared entirely, the muscle tone became much more defined, his coat even glossier, softer and most important, much, much denser. The doggie odor vanished. 

If I hadn't at least given the better food a try, feeding it long enough to see results (depending on the individual dog this takes about 4-8 weeks), I would still have been convinced that my dog "did just fine" on the lesser quality food. Now I clearly see the difference between "doing just fine" and truly thriving. Every step up the "quality ladder" will bring improvements, the stray dog who used to survive mostly on garbage will do better once he gets a daily ration of even a relatively cheap food because it supplies more essential nutrients; and a dog who was fed a grocery store brand is guaranteed to improve on a better quality product as well.


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## Karen Collins

You make good points as always Dave. I appreciate your insight and wisdom. I am a libra, therefore I require balance in all things, so I hope there is always room for more than one opinion here. After all, what good is a mutual admiration society, eh? (I had to throw in the "eh". I have very close friends from Canada who love to say that.)


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## Karen Collins

juliav said:


> :amen: Hey Karen, I think I love you!!!!


Julia, you're a crack up! It's nice to be loved! Thank you.


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## davetgabby

Hi Linda , I have no problem with voicing opinions. I have a problem with Julia's comments when she dismisses a profession like a pet nutritionist with statements like they are basically a waste of time and money., when it's far from the truth. People that think they know better than someone who is educated in a field usually don't, and dissuading people from seeking an expert is damaging and unproductive. I have a different opinion on her last statement ...." But only since the advent of the multi million or is it billion dog food industry we have suddenly become unable to properly feed our beloved dog " . I would venture an opinion that the vast majority of people don't know how to feed a healthy diet, or don't choose to.


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## Nancy Collins

Dave, I have 2 questions I would like to ask. The book that I posted on page 4 of this thread is written by a vet who specializes in food therapy....."little about the author...."Dinner PAWsible is a collection of 22 cat food recipes, 29 dog food recipes and two healthy treats based on the National Research Council requirements for dogs and cats; the same organization that commercial pet food nutritional foundations are based on. Dinner PAWsible is not only veterinarian recommended, it was co-authored by a veterinarian certified in food therapy! Dr. Cathy Alinovi DVM is trained in a variety of alternative and holistic methods including veterinary food therapy; her practice is located in central Indiana. Nutrition is the heart of every exam, curing over 80% of all problems." The book's focus is cooking a wide variety of healthy foods that are appropriate for dogs (and cats/separate recipes). Now,my questions....Why would every dog need a personalized diet if they are healthy? And what are Sabine's qualifications?


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## atsilvers27

davetgabby said:


> Hi Linda , I have no problem with voicing opinions. I have a problem with Julia's comments when she dismisses a profession like a pet nutritionist with statements like they are basically a waste of time and money., when it's far from the truth. People that think they know better than someone who is educated in a field usually don't, and dissuading people from seeking an expert is damaging and unproductive. I have a different opinion on her last statement ...." But only since the advent of the multi million or is it billion dog food industry we have suddenly become unable to properly feed our beloved dog " . I would venture an opinion that the vast majority of people don't know how to feed a healthy diet, or don't choose to.


Dave, I have gotten similar reactions from people at my grooming salon, such as: dogs have existed for thousands of years before professional groomers, why should I pay now for nail clipping, ear cleaning, clipping of coat, etc?

My actual response to these people (and one of them was the owner of a champion vizla) was that, before the age of modern pets, all dogs broke down into these basic categories: working dog, war dog, or companion/lap dog for royalty and aristocracy. Except for the last group, all dogs had to work to earn their keep. They herded farm animals, got rid of vermin, pulled heavy loads, guarded property and livestock, were trained as war animals, etc. They were on their feet all day and moving around. That would wear down the nails naturally, so there was no need to clip nails on the old working dogs. People complain about having to take their little dogs to groomers, well, those little lap dogs used to be pampered ladies' companions, very well cared for and much better than how today's average small dog owner keeps them. The bottom line: dogs were either extremely well kept by the wealthy, or they were working animals that suffered when they were no longer useful to people. They did not receive basic care that an owner, professional groomer, or modern veterinarian can provide. Same thing goes for diets. Dogs kept well by the wealthy got scraps of meat. Dogs owned by the poor did not have good diets and I'm sure were not healthy, robust animals. We should not romanticise the past, it was not idealic. Dogs have existed for millennia alongside humans, but just as we humans today have the medical science to know what is proper human nutrition and can diagnose illnesses caused by a nutrition imbalance, our stewardship of our animals has also evolved to better take care of them and their unique lifestyles of today. Peace.


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## davetgabby

Nancy Collins said:


> Dave, I have 2 questions I would like to ask. The book that I posted on page 4 of this thread is written by a vet who specializes in food therapy....."little about the author...."Dinner PAWsible is a collection of 22 cat food recipes, 29 dog food recipes and two healthy treats based on the National Research Council requirements for dogs and cats; the same organization that commercial pet food nutritional foundations are based on. Dinner PAWsible is not only veterinarian recommended, it was co-authored by a veterinarian certified in food therapy! Dr. Cathy Alinovi DVM is trained in a variety of alternative and holistic methods including veterinary food therapy; her practice is located in central Indiana. Nutrition is the heart of every exam, curing over 80% of all problems." The book's focus is cooking a wide variety of healthy foods that are appropriate for dogs (and cats/separate recipes). Now,my questions....Why would every dog need a personalized diet if they are healthy? And what are Sabine's qualifications?


with regard to your last two questions. why a personalized diet., ? not a necessity but every dog is different, different as to what it can tolerate , different tastes, different energy levels, . The biggest reason is that nutritionists at least some of them know what the healthy foods are, good nutritionists, in my opinion , just like vets, are not trying to sell something . And the question is, how do you really know what is healthy or whether your dog is healthy. difference between surviving and thriving. As to the last question , here's her site http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=main


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## juliav

davetgabby said:


> Hi Linda , I have no problem with voicing opinions. I have a problem with Julia's comments when she dismisses a profession like a pet nutritionist with statements like they are basically a waste of time and money., when it's far from the truth. People that think they know better than someone who is educated in a field usually don't, and dissuading people from seeking an expert is damaging and unproductive. I have a different opinion on her last statement ...." But only since the advent of the multi million or is it billion dog food industry we have suddenly become unable to properly feed our beloved dog " . I would venture an opinion that the vast majority of people don't know how to feed a healthy diet, or don't choose to.


Dave,

All I did was state an opinion, I didn't say what someone should or shouldn't do. You seem to have a monopoly on that.


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## davetgabby

atsilvers27 said:


> Dave, I have gotten similar reactions from people at my grooming salon, such as: dogs have existed for thousands of years before professional groomers, why should I pay now for nail clipping, ear cleaning, clipping of coat, etc?
> 
> My actual response to these people (and one of them was the owner of a champion vizla) was that, before the age of modern pets, all dogs broke down into these basic categories: working dog, war dog, or companion/lap dog for royalty and aristocracy. Except for the last group, all dogs had to work to earn their keep. They herded farm animals, got rid of vermin, pulled heavy loads, guarded property and livestock, were trained as war animals, etc. They were on their feet all day and moving around. That would wear down the nails naturally, so there was no need to clip nails on the old working dogs. People complain about having to take their little dogs to groomers, well, those little lap dogs used to be pampered ladies' companions, very well cared for and much better than how today's average small dog owner keeps them. The bottom line: dogs were either extremely well kept by the wealthy, or they were working animals that suffered when they were no longer useful to people. They did not receive basic care that an owner, professional groomer, or modern veterinarian can provide. Same thing goes for diets. Dogs kept well by the wealthy got scraps of meat. Dogs owned by the poor did not have good diets and I'm sure were not healthy, robust animals. We should not romanticise the past, it was not idealic. Dogs have existed for millennia alongside humans, but just as we humans today have the medical science to know what is proper human nutrition and can diagnose illnesses caused by a nutrition imbalance, our stewardship of our animals has also evolved to better take care of them and their unique lifestyles of today. Peace.


Good stuff. What's truly sad about everything is many experts in nutrition know what's good. But they mislead us all in the pursuit of the almighty dollar. Big names dog food conglomerates know the stuff they're selling is crap, and now the smaller companies that are actually making better foods are being bought up to eliminate the competition. A good nutritionist that is not influenced by selling something http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...nary-nutritionists-favor-commercial-food.aspx other than their services is worth their weight in gold.


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## davetgabby

juliav said:


> Dave,
> 
> All I did was state an opinion, I didn't say what someone should or shouldn't do. You seem to have a monopoly on that.


Julia, your comment ..."It always make me chuckle that I need professional help to home cook for my dogs" ... infers that people who seek professional help , are silly. Calling it as I see it. That's no more funny than someone contacting a trainer because his dog is pissing on the floor all the time.


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## emichel

Interesting discussion here. Linda, Julia, and Nancy -- for what it's worth, I have had many of the same thoughts and questions you have, yet still chose to consult with Sabine for my healthy dog. As I struggled to decide on the optimal feeding plan for my dog, and read all of the stuff I could on this forum and other sites, at first I strongly resisted the idea of hiring a nutrition consultant for my dog. I'm certain that it's not "necessary", though it's not necessary that I buy him all of the toys and treats I do, either. After reading and thinking about it, reading what Sabine had to say on her website, and investigating other dog nutritionists, here's what I came up with. First, I realized that I thought her rates were very fair and reasonable compared to the time and thought she puts into it. Two, I decided that I wanted as much information as I could get about how to help my dog towards optimal health, and that Sabine sounded like a great resource to have on board. I paid for the initial consult plus 4 weeks of follow up. I think it was $145 for that -- I'm too lazy to look it up right now -- whatever it was to me it was worth it, just to get her input as to what would be a good diet for my dog. I wanted primarily home cooked supplemented w/kibble for convenience. She asks for a lot of info, and takes into account what the dog likes, what foods I want to use, etc, and formulates a diet. I only had a few questions afterwards, and she answered very thoughtfully and at length. At the same time.... I, too, question the need for such precision with our dogs' diets, and actually I do not adhere strictly to the diet she devised. Just like with my diet, I know pretty much what foods I like that are good for me, and more or less the balance they should be in, but definitely do not eat like that all the time, just as much as I can. I do the same with Benjamin, i.e. feed him primarily what Sabine suggested, but vary it a bit as well. Maybe it's silly or maybe it's not to pay a canine nutritionist, but my dog is worth the world to me, and he is at my mercy in terms of what he eats. I don't take what Sabine says as gospel, just think that she's a valuable resource and wanted her opinion. I am still reading and thinking, and of course observing my dog, and am open to changing my mind about what to feed if it seems right to do so.

Well, sorry for the rambling run on paragraph, but I wanted to put this out there.


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## emichel

Just wanted to add a few thoughts. The word "necessary" is so funny. Technically, all that is necessary for human survival are air, water, food, and some kind of shelter from the elements, but most of us think of things such as cars, internet service, and cell phones as also being necessities. Well, I do tend to overthink things, so please bear with me. After I got my puppy last year and fell in love with him immediately, I became alarmed about all of the confusing info about what to feed, and especially about all of the recalls and problems with even some very high end and expensive pet foods. Even though human food and in fact the whole freaking planet itself are becoming toxic and polluted to a frightening extent, it seemed to me that the pet food industry was particularly corrupt and not adequately regulated, and I just felt that I wanted some help and guidance maneuvering through all of the information. So for me, for my mental well being, consulting with someone (I chose Sabine) was a necessity. I have been very happy with her, both with the explanations she's provided and with her obvious passion for her work.

Also... I am never impressed with arguments about how things have been for thousands of years. As atsilvers (sorry not sure of real name) so eloquently pointed out, the past was not all that rosy! I'm still not convinced about the greatness of a raw diet, even if I did want to deal with my dog dragging raw germy meat all around my wall to wall carpeting, since the way I figure it our dogs have been more recently evolving to eat cooked table scraps and commercial pet foods. It is really easy to romanticize and idealize things when it comes to our pets. I know that Sabine is big on raw, and there are good arguments on both sides. I have actually given my dog some raw meaty bones, and he likes them but it's a pain because we have to be outside and not in any grass that was mowed recently or else he is eating a RMB that looks like it was dredged in grass clippings. LOL. Anyway... I do think that it may be more important to be aware of nutrition imbalances with dogs than with humans, for this reason. Dogs are much smaller -- well Havanese are, at any rate -- so naturally have a smaller daily caloric intake. Therefore, there is less wiggle room in terms of being able to get an adequate amount of nutrients. In other words, humans might be able to get most of the nutrients they need in a day and still be able to eat a little "junk food" without gaining weight, but dogs not so much. On the other hand... well, plenty of humans seem to have weight problems... never mind! Sorry again for the rambling, it's just that I have so many thoughts about the subject and would rather express them then take the time to edit as if for an academic article. If it's not already obvious, my main point is that I do think it's important to try to provide a nutritionally balanced diet for our dogs, since that will give them the best chance to lead long healthy lives. Ironically... realizing this has inspired me to eat better myself, because if he outlives me who will take care of him?


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## RitaandRiley

Like!


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## davetgabby

Thanks for that. Love your passion for your dog.


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## atsilvers27

Thanks for your thoughts Eileen and FYI my name is Angela.


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## emichel

Ha ha, I should have remembered that, Angela, but my memory is not what it used to be. What were we just talking about?


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## Nancy Collins

Thanks Eileen! It was good to hear about your experience with Sabine. We all obviously love our havanese and want the best for them! And as you said about the raw (good arguments on both sides) the experts don't even agree! Grain, no grain, high protein is good, high protein is bad...ect. No one is ever right about everything all the time. And in the scientific community experts are always changing...which means quite often they figure out that what they have been saying is wrong. We would all be smart to never blindly follow anyone....not even the experts. I choose to follow the advice of a veterinarian certified in food therapy. Dr. Cathy Alinovi DVM is trained in a variety of alternative and holistic methods including veterinary food therapy. But as you do with Sabine, I use it as an "outline". We should be careful also not to elevate these experts to a position of unquestioned authority over our pets health. I am the one who lives with my dogs and knows if they are thriving are not. And just for the record, I grew up with very oridinary dogs (labs, german shepherds, mutts...) My mom was/is a great southern cook and our dogs ate table scraps and nothing else. They also only received rabies shots. No heartworm meds no flea preventatives. And they thrived into old age!! Just saying....


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## Nancy Collins

*thriving or not
*ordinary


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## Lalla

[/QUOTE] Oh, and whoever said no one told them how to feed their children, it's called the food pyramid and it's pretty specific. s.[/QUOTE]

I know I should shut up, I know I've probably annoyed people already, but since I have bothered to read a mountain of research on the subject (re humans, but much of it is relevant for any mammal) I simply can't bring myself to let the 'food pyramid' remark go unchallenged; the food pyramid is a disaster and the cause of more ill health and obesity amongst humans than probably any other factor in our lives. I entreat anyone who wants to be healthy to get over the fat-phobia-food-pyramid way of thinking. It is based on zero research and is a scandal.
There. THAT'LL put the cat among the Havanese pigeons!


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## mswhav

Oh, and whoever said no one told them how to feed their children, it's called the food pyramid and it's pretty specific. s.[/QUOTE]

I know I should shut up, I know I've probably annoyed people already, but since I have bothered to read a mountain of research on the subject (re humans, but much of it is relevant for any mammal) I simply can't bring myself to let the 'food pyramid' remark go unchallenged; the food pyramid is a disaster and the cause of more ill health and obesity amongst humans than probably any other factor in our lives. I entreat anyone who wants to be healthy to get over the fat-phobia-food-pyramid way of thinking. It is based on zero research and is a scandal.
There. THAT'LL put the cat among the Havanese pigeons![/QUOTE]

I completely agree with Lalla and need to chime in with my own 2 cents. 
Most of the conventional food "wisdom" like the food pyramid is nothing more than good marketing. Things like "milk will do your body good" is actually just really good marketing done by the dairy industry - not only will milk doesn't do your body good, looking at scientific research - countries with the highest consumption of dairy products actually has the highest rates of osteoporosis. Also, all these marketing on getting your protein is stupid - Have you ever heard of protein deficiency in the USA or anywhere where people get enough to eat? Protein deficiency only happens in countries that are very poor and they just don't have enough to eat like some places in Africa. The meat industry also does a really good job marketing to make you think that you can only get enough protein from eating meat - that is so wrong! A serving of brocolli has more protein than a serving of steak - you can get protein from so many food groups - not just meat! Quinoa also gives you all the protein you will need. You also don't need as much protein as you think you do. I think a lot of people are not educated enough when it comes to food and are mostly persuaded by giant companies' good marketing.

Also, by the way, if our school wants to feed our kids better, then maybe they need to stop serving them cheeseburgers and french fries during lunch, but of course, they are in cohorts with the evil giant food companies, who gives them the cheap prices. People, there is no such thing as cheap food. Cheap food is basically bad food, otherwise it won't be cheap. Cheap food means higher healthcare eventually. Please do your research on food for humans as well as your dogs.


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## Karen Collins

We've been duped by the diet dictocrats!


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## Carol Sue

*Diet makes a huge difference*

This thread is fascinating and so helpful. My 11 month old Hav is kinda picky and she gets dry kibble with little treats for training - homemade bread is her fav and I just give tiny little pieces of it.

We had a cat from my parents' farm for about 3 months before we returned it. My folks had cats for mousing, so they got raw food regularly but the folks also put out table scraps for them, too, and always fresh water. Farm cats are "working cats" as opposed to pets, still loved but important if you have any kind of grain farm. Anyway, the cat we had in our home for 3 months was put on a dry cat food quality vet diet. When we returned her, her litter mates were about half her size, less glossy coats. Point, raw isn't necessarily better. Content is critical. Not that I am an expert at all, ha!

Still thinking about my Hav. She was the runt of her littler, her mom was 8#, dad was 9#, and at 11 mo she is 8#, so a little girl. She is also an alpha... she has learned that I am HER alpha though, and she is perfect for me. She is somewhat picky and will not eat if she doesn't like her food. She does love people food and I didn't think I should start down that road when I'm not able to do it every day.

I really appreciate all the shares and insights here! Thank you!


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## Carol Sue

Ok, I can't resist commenting on this from mswhav, "countries with the highest consumption of dairy products actually has the highest rates of osteoporosis..." That is a true statement. What is not included is the fact that this is all processed milk. When it is homogenized, the molecules are actually larger and will not digest the normal way through the stomach and then eventual elimination but because of the molecular change, it ends up lining your vessles, thus osteoporosis. Solution is to drink raw milk. It isn't the milk's fault, it's man's processing of it. How does that cross over to the foods we feed our little Hav's?


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## dreamsie

I rather eat good food every meal and die a few years early instead of eating salad everyday and have a long life. I'm sure my dog feel the same way.  I'm so terrible. 

The only bad thing I've seen so far with feeding my dog human food is he's getting fat


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## krandall

dreamsie said:


> I rather eat good food every meal and die a few years early instead of eating salad everyday and have a long life. I'm sure my dog feel the same way.  I'm so terrible.
> 
> The only bad thing I've seen so far with feeding my dog human food is he's getting fat


Being fat is DEFINITELY not healthy for your dog, and it's completely within our power to control Cut down on the amount he's getting, and he'll lose weight!


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## Suzi

I just ate chocolate cake for dinner.


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## cathryn

Suzi said:


> I just ate chocolate cake for dinner.


Suzi, this made me laugh out loud...and wish I had some chocolate cake!


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## RitaandRiley

Suzi said:


> I just ate chocolate cake for dinner.


Good for you, Suzi! Sometimes I have ice cream for dinner!


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## krandall

Indulging every once in a while never hurt anyone!


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## emichel

Well, we're all gonna die, but I like to feel good while I'm here. Cake and ice cream for dinner once in a while is OK, but I see a lot of sick old people in my work, and I hope to not be one of them. I mean I do hope to be old(er), but I feel better when I eat mostly nutritious whole foods, and I think that gives me a better chance of feeling good on a day to day basis. Pizza is my weakness, but I always feel kind of gross if I over indulge. I don't get the impression that dogs are overly concerned with their mortality, or even how they're going to feel in 10 minutes if they eat too much of that whatever it is. Thus, it is up to me to decide what to feed him! I mean aside from when he finds something like a half eaten moldy burrito and scarfs it up before I can stop him, which has been known to happen. uke:


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## Lalla

dreamsie said:


> I rather eat good food every meal and die a few years early instead of eating salad everyday and have a long life. I'm sure my dog feel the same way.  I'm so terrible.
> 
> The only bad thing I've seen so far with feeding my dog human food is he's getting fat


It doesn't make me laugh out loud it makes me cry; why do we do it to ourselves? And Karen is so right, at least we can control what we do to our dogs. Food that makes you or your dog fat ISN'T 'good' food!!!! If your dog is getting fat eating 'human' food then it's the wrong human food!! For humans AND dogs!!! There's plenty of human food that doesn't make us, or dogs, fat and it doesn't mean nothing but salads!!!! Sorry, all, but honestly, PLEASE don't think good food means just salad! If you really want to get on my hobbyhorse with me (which I'm sure you don't!) look at my 'Food For Thought' thread, I just PROMISE you that we have the wherewithal to change ours (and our dogs') life and it doesn't have to be boring. It's only boring listening to me, so I'll stop now, but please do take this seriously, it's SO important.


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## MarinaGirl

SOAPBOX....My concern about stout or overweight dogs is many owners are in denial about the situation; instead, they make excuses for their dog's size, such as s/he's big boned, they're still a growing girl or boy, or the vet says they're at the top of the scale so don't let them gain any more weights, which is interpreted as s/he's fine. None of these pet owners are getting the message (from their vet or other sources) that they're feeding their pet(s) too many calories each day. And this issue occurs regardless of the food type (e.g. kibble, raw, or home cooked diets). We damage our dogs when we give them more food than they need. We need to remember that just because a dog likes to eat and is begging for more food doesn't mean s/he's truly hungry; you need to be strong and not let your dog manipulate you into giving them more food than necessary for their optimal health. -Jeanne-


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## Lalla

MarinaGirl said:


> SOAPBOX....My concern for stout or overweight dogs is many owners are in denial about the situation; instead, they make excuses, such as s/he's big boned, they're still a growing girl or boy, or the vet says they're at the top of the scale but to not let them gain any more weight at all so s/he's fine.. None of these pet owners are getting the message that says they're feeding their pet(s) too many calories daily. And this issue occurs with kibble, raw, and home cooked diets. We damage our dogs when we give them more food than they need just because the dogs express a desire to eat more food. Reminder: just because a dog likes to eat doesn't mean s/he's truly hungry, so in these situations you need to not let your dog manipulate you into giving them more food than necessary for optimal health. -Jeanne-


Is there room for me on the soapbox, Jeanne??!! I SO agree. And it's not just dogs!!! Please, please, pretty please, look at the YouTube films I've posted on "Food For Thought". For all of us, including our dogs. PLEASE worry less about fat, and worry more about sugar, and that means ALL simple carbohydrate. Simple carbohydrate converts to sugar. It IS sugar. One slice of bread = two tablespoons of sugar. We have the ability to change our lives, we really do, and we need to stop listening to bonkers, out-of-date, rotten advice. 
As far as my own dogs are concerned, NOT eating is more of an issue, but as long as they are energetic and healthy I don't worry. And as long as their food, including treats, is not stuffed with simple carbohydrate I know they won't get fat. It's all so easy as long as one updates one's knowledge and looks at recent information. Please don't go with gut (literally) feelings, but learn from actual research, it is SO interesting!!!!! End of rant, beginning of hope.


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## krandall

emichel said:


> Well, we're all gonna die, but I like to feel good while I'm here. Cake and ice cream for dinner once in a while is OK, but I see a lot of sick old people in my work, and I hope to not be one of them. I mean I do hope to be old(er), but I feel better when I eat mostly nutritious whole foods, and I think that gives me a better chance of feeling good on a day to day basis. Pizza is my weakness, but I always feel kind of gross if I over indulge. I don't get the impression that dogs are overly concerned with their mortality, or even how they're going to feel in 10 minutes if they eat too much of that whatever it is. Thus, it is up to me to decide what to feed him! I mean aside from when he finds something like a half eaten moldy burrito and scarfs it up before I can stop him, which has been known to happen. uke:


Ha! very well said!


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## lfung5

Makes me feel better that I'm not the only one obsessed with my guys weights!!! I weight them at least once a week. Scudder really is big boned though.... Lol I keep a close eye on his weight though. Always feeling his ribs, backbone and watch his waist line! He's definitely not built like Freddie and Bella who are very lean and moderate boned.


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## krandall

lfung5 said:


> Makes me feel better that I'm not the only one obsessed with my guys weights!!! I weight them at least once a week. Scudder really is big boned though.... Lol I keep a close eye on his weight though. Always feeling his ribs, backbone and watch his waist line! He's definitely not built like Freddie and Bella who are very lean and moderate boned.


Pam King told me before I chose Kodi that he was "big boned". I didn't care for my (performance) purposes. He weighs very close to what Scudder weighs&#8230; 16.5 in fighting weight. At 16 lbs, he's really too thin. At 17 lbs, he'd be fine as a pet, but it's more weight than I want when he's sailing around agility courses. He's exactly 11.5". I have had him officially measured twice now at that height&#8230; the original measurement at the specialty was incorrect. They measured him there as 11.75" It doesn't change his jump height, so from an agility perspective, and he doesn't show in conformation either. So it really doesn't make any difference, but I was interested to know that he IS (just barely! ) in standard.


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## lfung5

When I'm out if town and my dog sitter watches Scudder he gets close to 17 lbs! Not sure if she's not walking him as much or what..... So I'm out of town working and I know scuds with need to go on a diet starting tomorrow

Can't pictures scuds doing agility with his big bones. He is not as agile as Fred!


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## chataboutthat

sometimes i read this board and think i'm a lousy dog mother. but i don't cook for ME. i'm really not inclined to cook for tippi. and she doesn't seem too disappointed with her dry food. 
<hanging head in shame>


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## Karen Collins

chataboutthat said:


> sometimes i read this board and think i'm a lousy dog mother. but i don't cook for ME. i'm really not inclined to cook for tippi. and she doesn't seem too disappointed with her dry food.
> <hanging head in shame>


Like my sister-in-law always says, "Good, Better, Best". I have aggressive RA and can do very little. So cooking is not an option today. I use a high quality kibble mixed with a dehydrated raw. Dance does great and I plan to wean her puppies to this same mixture. Don't beat yourself up. Its not all about food anyway. There are other natural things you can do to help your baby be healthy.


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## krandall

I agree completely with Karen C. Most of us on this board are already light years ahead of the general "pet dog owner" population… or we wouldn't be here, reading about our wonderful breed all the time.

I fed Kodi kibble for about 4 years. I was very choosey about his kibble, and I only fed organic kibble. Unfortunately, the company that made his kibble dropped that line, and I had to look around for something else. I settled on Nature's Variety Instinct kibble for breakfast (because it's quick and easy for my husband to feed him, and he's usually up first) and at night he gets sort-of-home-made.

I don't have the time or energy to do all the sourcing, shopping, chopping and cooking that a completely home made diet requires. So I alternate between Honest Kitchen and Balance-it to make sure that Kodi is getting the non-protein nutrients that he needs, without me having to find and prepare all the other ingredients. And I mix that with organic chicken breasts that I get ground special for him at Whole Foods. (most ground chicken is thigh meat, and has more fat in it than I want in his diet) I brown the meat in a big stew pot, add the Honest Kitchen and/or Balance-it. (I often do a double batch, and use half Honest Kitchen and half Balance-it) I freeze the mixture in serving-sized portions in muffin tray, then pop them out and keep them in a plastic bag in the freezer, ready to thaw in the microwave. 

I get the Honest Kitchen and Balance-It delivered mail order, and pick up his chicken when I'm shopping anyway. (I do have to call ahead and ask them to grind it for me) It takes me well under an hour (not counting freezing time!) to make about a month's worth of meals for him. I figure I'd spend that much time just going to a pet store to pick up kibble for him. And I have the peace of mind of knowing that he is getting a really high quality food.

That said, if you decide to stick with kibble, as long as you choose a high quality kibble, he will do FINE!!! Look at Mary's Tyler. He's 16 1/2, and has never had anything but kibble!


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## RitaandRiley

Hi Karen,
I'm interested in going the "Preference", "Balance-it" route also. I've already sampled the HK but I'm curious about the Balance-it. Does it give info about serving size/calories with varying types and cuts of meat? For example as you mentioned chicken thigh vs.breast vs. different cuts of beef etc. I like to rotate protein sources. Also is it like a powder you sprinkle on or is it more of a mush like the HK? Thanks!


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## krandall

RitaandRiley said:


> Hi Karen,
> I'm interested in going the "Preference", "Balance-it" route also. I've already sampled the HK but I'm curious about the Balance-it. Does it give info about serving size/calories with varying types and cuts of meat? For example as you mentioned chicken thigh vs.breast vs. different cuts of beef etc. I like to rotate protein sources. Also is it like a powder you sprinkle on or is it more of a mush like the HK? Thanks!


Actually, Balance_it is the MOST specific. They help you develop a recipe (or more than one, whatever you want) specifically for your dog. There are a number of "free" recipes on the site, but you can also, for a reasonable fee, have them specially design a diet for your dog. (to do that, you have to have your vet's approval that your dog is healthy, or if not, what, if any dietary restrictions the dog has) What I like is that the people who design the diets are board certified veterinary nutritionists.

Balance it is available in 3 "flavors"&#8230; Carnivore, which contains no starch source, oat blend and potato blend. I bought the potato blend first, but I won't again. I don't like the idea of filling him up on un-needed starch. The next time, I'll get the carnivore blend, and use that in conjunction with HK.

In Balance-It's "free" recipe program, it warns that the carnivore blend + the chosen meat is higher in fat and protein than commercial dog foods. I have no problem with it being higher in protein&#8230; we know that isn't a problem for a dog who doesn't have kidney problems. OTOH, especially in a small dog, you DO want to avoid too high fat levels. That's why I chose to use the ground chicken breast rather than generic ground chicken.

Kodi CLEARLY like both WAY better than kibble, but he likes HK (or a blend of HK and Balance-It) better than the Balance-It recipe alone.

I also tried Sojo's, but won't again, after finding that they source some of their vegetable ingredients from China. That said, he liked that too!


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## chataboutthat

Tippi eats a brand called Merrick, and the chicken, brown rice and green pea version makes her tail wag. But I've never heard anyone mention that brand on this board, so I'm thinking it must not be so good. My pet store is not one of the big box pet stores, and they think Merrick is good. But I suspect that you guys know more about what's good for a Havanese. Dave posted some brands for me yesterday that I'll investigate.


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## davetgabby

krandall said:


> Actually, Balance_it is the MOST specific. They help you develop a recipe (or more than one, whatever you want) specifically for your dog. There are a number of "free" recipes on the site, but you can also, for a reasonable fee, have them specially design a diet for your dog. (to do that, you have to have your vet's approval that your dog is healthy, or if not, what, if any dietary restrictions the dog has) What I like is that the people who design the diets are board certified veterinary nutritionists.
> 
> Balance it is available in 3 "flavors"&#8230; Carnivore, which contains no starch source, oat blend and potato blend.  I bought the potato blend first, but I won't again. I don't like the idea of filling him up on un-needed starch. The next time, I'll get the carnivore blend, and use that in conjunction with HK.
> 
> In Balance-It's "free" recipe program, it warns that the carnivore blend + the chosen meat is higher in fat and protein than commercial dog foods. I have no problem with it being higher in protein&#8230; we know that isn't a problem for a dog who doesn't have kidney problems. OTOH, especially in a small dog, you DO want to avoid too high fat levels. That's why I chose to use the ground chicken breast rather than generic ground chicken.
> 
> Kodi CLEARLY like both WAY better than kibble, but he likes HK (or a blend of HK and Balance-It) better than the Balance-It recipe alone.
> 
> I also tried Sojo's, but won't again, after finding that they source some of their vegetable ingredients from China. That said, he liked that too!


Karen the problem with board certified nutritionists is that most are bought by the large dog food companies. They are no different in what they recommend and endorse than many vets do. I think it would be wiser to consult with a non bias nutritionist and get a customized diet than a commercial one size fits all approach . here's an article on BCVN s http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...nary-nutritionists-favor-commercial-food.aspx Well, there's the American Academy of Veterinary Nutrition and the American College of Veterinary Nutrition for example. Not many of them exist, and the ones that are around mostly work for large pet food companies, like Hill's or Royal Canin etc. and here's another articke http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/veterinary-nutrition-technicians/

Just take a look at the authors of most small animal nutrition textbooks...


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## RitaandRiley

Merrick is a good brand.


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## emichel

Dave -- I know that a lot of vets and canine nutritionists are in the pockets of the large dog food companies, but I just have to say... I don't think that holistic vets or canine nutritionists are completely immune from a financial incentive. They believe in what they do, but also have an agenda and are interested in attracting a market of "consumers" from whom they can benefit financially. Being fully aware of one's own motives is as difficult as it is for the fish to see the water he swims in. My own opinion is that life is complicated and it's not all black and white. I am weary of the romanticization of "dogs in the wild". The only ones I've known were when I briefly lived in Mexico, and they all seemed skinny and hungry and flea bitten. But maybe that's not a good example. Point being, I think that there are "conventional" vets (my own, for example) who are primarily motivated by their love for animals, are at least interested in learning more about nutrition, are open minded about limiting exposure to chemicals, and are busy enough that they don't have to generate business with unnecessary procedures such as extra vaccinations. I also think that there are some in the holistic movement who are unreasonably dogmatic and extreme, and probably "unconsciously" motivated by wanting to capture a niche. As I'm sure you know, Sabine is not "rabidly" (so to speak) against grains, and says that although they don't need the carbs per se, dogs can benefit from the vitamins, minerals, and fiber found in whole grains. It is true that they are harder for dogs to digest than meat, but can be used to a limited extent to good effect. It strikes me as paradoxical that many of the so called holistic people are so vehemently opposed to grains, but in my opinion it is not very holistic to not factor in the devastating effect that the meat industry is having on the whole freaking planet. Not to mention how animals, with feelings just like our dogs have, are tortured before we and our dogs can eat them. Even if we can afford to use locally and humanely raised, and humanely slaughtered, organic meats (my own goal is to drastically limit my own meat consumption and to use only limited amounts of these very high quality well raised animals), but it is not just about me, or my dog! We, and our dogs, live in an _environment_, and with China and other developing nations drastically increasing their meat consumption, we are scr**ed if we can't decrease our environmental impact. Though it's probably too late anyway and maybe we should just give up and keep doing what we're doing, but I think we've got to try to figure out this meat thing. Sorry for being a bummer, but it's reality! Just my 2 cents worth -- carry on!


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## Karen Collins

Well said emichel.


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## krandall

Karen Collins said:


> Well said emichel.


:thumb:


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## davetgabby

emichel said:


> Dave -- I know that a lot of vets and canine nutritionists are in the pockets of the large dog food companies, but I just have to say... I don't think that holistic vets or canine nutritionists are completely immune from a financial incentive. They believe in what they do, but also have an agenda and are interested in attracting a market of "consumers" from whom they can benefit financially. Being fully aware of one's own motives is as difficult as it is for the fish to see the water he swims in. My own opinion is that life is complicated and it's not all black and white. I am weary of the romanticization of "dogs in the wild". The only ones I've known were when I briefly lived in Mexico, and they all seemed skinny and hungry and flea bitten. But maybe that's not a good example. Point being, I think that there are "conventional" vets (my own, for example) who are primarily motivated by their love for animals, are at least interested in learning more about nutrition, are open minded about limiting exposure to chemicals, and are busy enough that they don't have to generate business with unnecessary procedures such as extra vaccinations. I also think that there are some in the holistic movement who are unreasonably dogmatic and extreme, and probably "unconsciously" motivated by wanting to capture a niche. As I'm sure you know, Sabine is not "rabidly" (so to speak) against grains, and says that although they don't need the carbs per se, dogs can benefit from the vitamins, minerals, and fiber found in whole grains. It is true that they are harder for dogs to digest than meat, but can be used to a limited extent to good effect. It strikes me as paradoxical that many of the so called holistic people are so vehemently opposed to grains, but in my opinion it is not very holistic to not factor in the devastating effect that the meat industry is having on the whole freaking planet. Not to mention how animals, with feelings just like our dogs have, are tortured before we and our dogs can eat them. Even if we can afford to use locally and humanely raised, and humanely slaughtered, organic meats (my own goal is to drastically limit my own meat consumption and to use only limited amounts of these very high quality well raised animals), but it is not just about me, or my dog! We, and our dogs, live in an _environment_, and with China and other developing nations drastically increasing their meat consumption, we are scr**ed if we can't decrease our environmental impact. Though it's probably too late anyway and maybe we should just give up and keep doing what we're doing, but I think we've got to try to figure out this meat thing. Sorry for being a bummer, but it's reality! Just my 2 cents worth -- carry on!


well said Eileen , the key is to find people who are not biased and will give you honest information. That's why I like people like Sabine, she refuses to associate with any pet food companies and she has had numerous chances to do so , she tells you what she thinks is the best with no ulterior motives or kickbacks. You just have to take the time to research and question the professionals you deal with. People are catching on sort of speak, as the internet points out where we have gone wrong in the past. sorry for the late reply, we have had ice storm across southern Ontario and a lot of power outages . We had power but no internet.


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## Colbie

emichel said:


> Dave -- I know that a lot of vets and canine nutritionists are in the pockets of the large dog food companies, but I just have to say... I don't think that holistic vets or canine nutritionists are completely immune from a financial incentive. They believe in what they do, but also have an agenda and are interested in attracting a market of "consumers" from whom they can benefit financially. Being fully aware of one's own motives is as difficult as it is for the fish to see the water he swims in. My own opinion is that life is complicated and it's not all black and white. I am weary of the romanticization of "dogs in the wild". The only ones I've known were when I briefly lived in Mexico, and they all seemed skinny and hungry and flea bitten. But maybe that's not a good example. Point being, I think that there are "conventional" vets (my own, for example) who are primarily motivated by their love for animals, are at least interested in learning more about nutrition, are open minded about limiting exposure to chemicals, and are busy enough that they don't have to generate business with unnecessary procedures such as extra vaccinations. I also think that there are some in the holistic movement who are unreasonably dogmatic and extreme, and probably "unconsciously" motivated by wanting to capture a niche. As I'm sure you know, Sabine is not "rabidly" (so to speak) against grains, and says that although they don't need the carbs per se, dogs can benefit from the vitamins, minerals, and fiber found in whole grains. It is true that they are harder for dogs to digest than meat, but can be used to a limited extent to good effect. It strikes me as paradoxical that many of the so called holistic people are so vehemently opposed to grains, but in my opinion it is not very holistic to not factor in the devastating effect that the meat industry is having on the whole freaking planet. Not to mention how animals, with feelings just like our dogs have, are tortured before we and our dogs can eat them. Even if we can afford to use locally and humanely raised, and humanely slaughtered, organic meats (my own goal is to drastically limit my own meat consumption and to use only limited amounts of these very high quality well raised animals), but it is not just about me, or my dog! We, and our dogs, live in an _environment_, and with China and other developing nations drastically increasing their meat consumption, we are scr**ed if we can't decrease our environmental impact. Though it's probably too late anyway and maybe we should just give up and keep doing what we're doing, but I think we've got to try to figure out this meat thing. Sorry for being a bummer, but it's reality! Just my 2 cents worth -- carry on!


:amen:


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