# Sticky  READ THIS FIRST



## Melissa Miller

This is a new area on a TRIAL basis. Its either going to be great or get out of hand, but nothing ventured nothing gained. 

Here you can list your breeder, and your experience with them. Good or bad. Stick with the facts, no slander or emotional rambling. 

Breeders ...feel free to start a thread and say what you do as a breeder. What health testing do you do? What kind of set up do you keep your dogs in? Are they in kennels or do they live in the house? What do you strive for when breeding, such as temperment...conformation, color, whatever it is. Do you show?

Be prepared to BACK UP what you say. We want photos, we want documentation of health testing. List your bloodlines and dogs.

Im hoping people can ask LOTS of questions. It wont be easy to lie to people here, because lots of people, some in the business and some not, will be watching! SO if you are unethical breeder, think twice before participating, bad practices will be discovered. 

One very IMPORTANT RULE: DO NOT ADVERTISE PUPPIES. Don't result to a classified ad about a puppy. New litter photos are fine, just do not say they are for sale or available. 

This should be a great learning experience. It will also give people who think they want to breed a look into what it takes, its NOT easy, its NOT profitable and it should be Hard Work! Give the facts but try to keep it friendly. 

Melissa


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## Lynn

Melissa, since the information from the breeder is so important to us, is there anyway we can validate the breeder is who or what he says he is. I hope this doesn't sound bad, but sometimes it is easy for people to be something they are not on-line.


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## Melissa Miller

Thats a great question. Im thinking you ask them whats you name, ask for referrals and ask if anyone on here knows them. Every breeder should have referrals you can talk to. And they should post their website.


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## Lynn

That would work for me.


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## Rita

Sounds good. Just worried about saying a breeder is bad. Is there liability or slander isssues? Maybe you can just use initials and location? I am not sure. I don't have any friends who are lawyers. Do you? Do we have any online?

I would just hate to see someone get involved in a slander suit and some bad breeder try to get money from them. If they are bad breeders to begin with they are just doing things for $ and are always trying to get rich quick.

Maybe it is more like a rating scale. What kind of experience did you have with this breeder? Excellent, Good, Bad. If your experience was bad, please note why in a short paragraph............Maybe if you set up something like that it would avoid rambling (like I am doing now).


On a side note, I have to say I love how this group evolved. It seems like everyone received some education already. Like the thread about health testing......

Take care.

Rita


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## Lynn

Rita, has brought up an important issue. I like her idea of good, excel, bad, and limited reply.


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## Melissa Miller

Yes I agree and I would not let it get out of control with the idea of slander in mind. A rating system is great. And we dont ever have to say anything bad about anyone. A lot of times its not what WE say. But what they DONT say. So when a breeder brings themselves into this mix, we will simply ask questions. They can either prove what they do or cant. 

My biggest hope is we can let good breeders shine here. I visualize someone sharing photos of where the puppies grow up. Links to show where they registered health testing results. A family tree so to speak. 
Maybe owner referrals on their experience and how the breeder followed up afterwards. When people see what to expect from a good breeder, they will steer clear of the ones who make the cut. I have no problems posting photos of past litters just not current ones. Its not a classified section.

So we dont have to weed out the bad ones, Im thinking they will do that on their own. To be honest, my biggest concern on this new forum was breeders slandering each other. I wont allow that either. Politics can stay on the big lists.


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## susaneckert

I agree with you Melissa, When some one is new on buying a prebreed dog they have no clue what to look for or to do or what to ask a breeder. I know I didnt really know what I was truly doing.Having pictures of pass lilter on how they are being raise is a good Idea.providing that people do not put up current liliters that are for sale.If people use this as it was ment for it will do great . Its all about a learning site and to share storys and get support from others. I love this site Melissa and in time as the word gets out You will have a very big site going LOL are you ready for that LOL Susan


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## Tom King

I'm a little too tired to think about this right now. We were up until around 3 am doing breeder stuff last night. I do have a comment on the referrals though. We would never ask one of our puppy buyers to be a reference for us simply because it would be a daily job. Of course any of them would be most welcome to make any comment but we don't ask.


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## Kathy

As a breeder, I don't think I am favor of this. I consider myself a good breeder. One that is honest, does health testing, is VERY picky about where my puppies will live forever, doesn't keep dogs in a kennel, etc. What I don't like about this idea is the liability involved here. I live in California, which is a very sue happy state. 

I don't feel this is the best way to "educate" the buying public. Personality conflicts can come into play. I tell everyone that contacts me, to find a breeder you (the buyer) can work with, as this commitment to a puppy will be for the life of the puppy and you want a breeder that you like and feel comfortable about. On this forum I have read comments made by people regarding their puppy purchase that should have been red flags against buying from that particular breeder, yet they did it anyway. We live in a society that doesn't want to wait. Instead, they take what they can get now. 

I don't soap my dogs, but rather I have xrays done on their fronts. Does that make a bad breeder? I don't think so, just a smart one! Many feel that soaping is a joke, as the only thing it shows is if a dog has a very bad front, but it doesn't show well, some dogs that are in question. The buying public has NO idea what to look for at all in a soaped picture. Those are really for breeders. I could show a buyer a soaped picture, and they would think the dog was fine, but another breeder would say, "oh no, not nice, won't use that dog/bitch for breeding". 

I think what is important here is to get the word out to buyers on WHAT to ask and LOOK for, not their opinion about a person.


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## Rita

Melissa,

Maybe we do have to approach this differently. Maybe we need to have our own breeder referral. Just say you like your breeder and why. I think most of us have gotten in the habit of PM people to give others a heads up or ask a question about where they got their dog. 

I also am concerned about the person who may not like their breeder because of lack of communication. I not taking about the bad breeders who don't health test but the good breeders. Even my breeder said she could never claim 100% placement more like 97% because of someone who miscommunicated what they wanted or was in left field about what is involved with a new puppy. I think I would question a breeder who told me otherwise.

So, I might like a breeder and you might not like them. It is sort of like I can like a doctor and think he/she is the greatest and you don't like him/her because of their bedside manner. There are times I hesitate about even telling people who my doctor is. I tell them I think she is the greatest but they would have to make their own judgement. Its a tricky thing.


I think I will have to ponder this a little longer:

EEK. I just had another thought. What about the breeder who uses a made up name on this forum and bashes his/her competition.Yikes. Or better yet what about the person I send to my breeder who is a total village idiot!!!!!!! She would never talk to me again. 

I better stop thinking, my head hurts.


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## peluitohavanese

*Set up a ranking system*

You could set up a ranking system similar to the one amazon uses for their books (the 5 stars method), or as in e-opinions where people give a 1 through 10 ranking and are able to post commentary without their names. 
If you have cookies set you can avoid people posting their rankings multiple times to get higher grades. Just a thought.
Arlene
www.peluitohavanese.com
p.s. as a breeder I receive comments and complaints about other breeders a lot, I don't know if that happens with some of the breeders on this forum. It's an uncomfortable situation, because the puppy buyer is right in complaining, but what can be done other than maybe bring it to light this way.


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## susaneckert

You all have a point something to think about . Or maybe do it in away of its only a referal list like the AKC site type thing using a referal list at your own risk. Along with a list of question to ask the breeders that are on the list and possible only breeders that post with the proper sites of there testing there will always be a what if or only if or what ever type thing just because there is a list it does not mean its the only one you do have to use common sense right? I would not get into details at all of breeders ect. But a list to go by the basic thing.Kind of like at a dog show how you have meet the breed have a area in this site that tells all about the breed along with a guide of questions to ask or even a breeders list respectable breeders type that is my 2 cent Susan


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## Cosmosmom

Hi 
I just got the book Grooming for dummies and in it it has the criteria for finding a good breeder . I am sure some breeders and clients set the bar even higher but this is a good starting point .
I do not know if this is helpful to you or not .
I would like to say I wish they had this forum the first time I was looking for my first HAvanese 4 years ago.
I called a lot of breeders and some were so rude they did not even talk to me and others would nit return my e mails or calls . They certainly had an attitude ..
One of them has since left Ca and moved to another state . I think he was having serious issues .
Fortunately I found someone through a friend but I had to wait a long time for my dog .
Hopefully the people who sign on to this website to locate Breeder information are not litigious . Hopefully they are mature adults !! I said hopefully .
I agree Calif is the worst state . I live her too .. 
People do 
not seem to be able to take responsibility for their actions ,decisions and mistakes . Much easier to place the blame on someone else .
I am sure Melissa can put somekind of disclaimer on the site stating this is just a forum - citing various opinions etc.
It is a sad comment on our society when you are trying to help people and provide helpful information but at the same time you had to protect yourself and do A CYA ..
I will get off my soapbox now


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## marjrc

Well, I'm all for learning about the experiences other puppy buyers have had with their breeders ..... but there is the whole 'nastiness' that can come out. Melissa has said she'll be controlling that aspect of things should it get to that point so it should be fine.

I have to say that although there was much about Ricky's breeder that I liked, the thing I don't like is lack of interest on their part and communication. I was assured they wanted news and updates, pics too, but if I don't write with a question or comment, then I don't ever hear from them.  In fact, I wrote 5 days ago and still haven't heard a thing. The woman also got certain things confused which made me a little worried at first, but I realized soon enough that she was just confused for real! lol Dates and stuff mixed up, so not the end of the world.

We visited them at home where they raise and breed their dogs and it was a very good experience. I am not at all worried about Ricky's heritage and health - at least, as much as one can be not worried!

I'm interested in seeing how this thread goes and if we do decide to list our breeders ..... coming from Canada, it will be nice to see what other Cdn. members experience.


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## Cosmosmom

Hi 
Yes I had the same response from my breeder when I was send updates about Cosmo I would receive terse replies . I got the feeling she could care less about him . Sad !!. 
I finally stopped e mailing her . If he were on of my puppies I would love to know how he was doing .. 
I do not know if it is that she did not want to know or if she was just too busy showing her dogs or breeding . Anyway I revisited her web site which she has improved and updated and it looks even better than before . Now it seems like she is interested in improving her marketing tools but not that keen on hearing about the progress of her dogs .
Maybe I am being overly sensitive and too harsh . I have no intention of returning the dog he is part of our family and we love him to pieces.. 
I had the same expereince with my first breeder . She ws very eager to hear all about the puppy until he had a breeding irregularity - his teeth did not come in correctly and he had a bit of an overbite .
I called to tell her not because I was upset or dissatisfied . I loved that little guy with all my heart and to me he was perfect . But from a breeding standpoint I thought she should know and I told her that . No way did I want to return the dog but I just thought she should be aware of it .. The vet recommended that I call her and let her know .. Well I guess she only wanted to hear good things as I never heard from her again either ..


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## marjrc

I wouldn't mind if the breeder just has no time or desire to correspond with me, if that is just how she is, but she kept telling me how she *wanted* me to keep in touch, send pictures that she wanted to add to her website, let her know if I had any questions or concerns. I get WAY more support and encouragement from the lists, and now even more from this forum than I ever did from the breeders! Anyway, I didn't expect to use them as a support group. I just thought they'd want to know how the pup is doing now and then.

I just wrote her to let her know that Ricky had his neutering done and asked what I need to send her so I can get his registration papers from CKC, but still no news. I know I'll get them (and to be honest, it doesn't even matter to me whether I have papers or not!), but I just wish she took the time to reply and be more 'on the ball' about things. I could always call her, but I'll give her a couple more days and see what happens. It's been a week already. Maybe they're on vacation!? lol


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## Lynn

I think one of the best things we can do for the Havanese breed as Havanese Lovers (as we all are) is to design a good thread here that will help people know more about the breeders before they purchase their puppy, as they would if all of us shared our experiences that we had with our breeders and rated the breeder.

Say, I am going to buy a puppy and I read something in one of these threads about the breeder I am going to buy from that I don't like, I can put it out on the table with the breeder right up front before I purchase the puppy. If I don't like their response I would go else where.

If the breeder has a bad rating - the prospective buyer at least knows to beware.

The end results, happier puppy owners, better experience for them, eliminate some of the worries and concerns, problems some of us had. And if it ends up where some of the not so good breeders have to get better to stay in business, what does that do *Help the Havanese dogs and owners*! Which is what we want to do here because we love them!

Maybe we need a couple of threads; 1. rate your breeder 2. breeder response ?


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## Cosmosmom

Hi 
I guess we would have to chose various criteria to rate them not just as an overall breeder..
Now this is more serious and some inside information we would never be privy to . Some of it would be common sense . health testing and guarantees , innoculations return policy etc parents lineage .
I received a lot of information with Cosmo and I was very appreciative of her handouts and dietary recommendations and shot and worming record and cautions about the breed . 
Asta was like bringing a baby home from the hospital and not having a clue .. Fortunately he was a hardy little guy and he did well and passed his physical with flying colors ..
Some of us may have personality issues with the breeder and others may think they are fantastic .. 
The second breeder I went to was much more organized and it was obvious she knew her dogs . She was very active in the show ring and an keen conscientious breeder .. She also guarantees them for 5 years and if you could not keep the dog for any reason she wanted to have first refusal .
Asta was a different story even though he was considerd pick of the litter . Hmm- in retrospect what does that mean .. He was an adorable puppy but as he got older he was a little irregular looking . He had an amazing personality happy and charming and to me a little love and a great dog .. 

Did he have breeding potential as show dog I do not think so .. I did think however if he was used he would have had the nicest children with the best personalities .. I do not think he would have been picked to play do you ?
See a lot of it is so individual opinion ,desires and personal taste too .

However I do think it would be helpful if we had some kind of system and people would not be wasting a lot of time and spinning their wheels .. 

There are problems however as some breeders have more dogs to breed than others some are smaller and very selective and you have to wait for a dog . I mean wait . I waited over 8 months for Asta ..
Sometimes they have small litters , others are overacheivers and have 5 . 
What happens then when they only have a litter of one .

I have seen the programs on Animal Planet where they are expecting a litter and there are complications and the health of the mother and puppies is compromised . It can sometimes be heartbreaking . 

These caring people conscientious breeders have my utmost respect .. 
The fact that I was provided with such a wonderful dog to me is a gift . So they are too busy for the latest update and to e mail me back . That is OK with me . I send her a picture when he gets has his first birthday and he has a candle on his cake ..


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## irnfit

I hope something comes of this. As much as we do research on a breeder, we still have to be extra cautious. I still keep in touch with Kodi's breeder every few months and she always replies to my emails. However, I am not having the same luck with Shelby's "breeder". She still has not replied to my email requeting the CERF papers she promised me. And it makes me more mad because I have checked the CERF website and have not had any luck. 
Let the buyer beware!


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## susaneckert

Once I bought Yoda from the breeder she has never called or email me I have sent her pictures not even one answer from her.So I know what she is all about I hate to say it.It sums it all up in one word MONEY Makes me so angery.


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## Tom King

We love to hear from our puppy owners. Our refrigerator is covered with pictures as well as having them stuck every where mostly into the edges of other picture frames. We get more than a hundred Christmas cards with pictures every year. Sometimes Pam pulls out the litter records and calls people we haven't heard from in a while. I can't remember names unless I've known anyone for a while, but Pam remembers all the names, the kids names, and the dogs names. She called someone yesterday who got a puppy 8 years ago and they are doing great. She spends so much time on the phone about Havanese that we got unlimited long distance. 

Every puppy we've ever produced is still alive and healthy except for one that was sadly killed in an attack from a Bull Mastiff- which was bravely defended by his owner who also suffered injuries. That family now proudly owns two of our dogs and their neighbors several more.


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## MopTop Havanese

Tom,
Wow~! That is something to be very proud of!
Katie


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## BeverlyA

I have lots of mixed feelings on this topic but I'll only address one, okay, maybe two  thoughts right now. I agree that the very personable breeder that makes the effort to keep in contact with all of their puppies new families is at least, desirable, but I don't think that just because someone is more quiet or finds it easier to find a good home for the puppy, then let them go unless they need their help, it doesn't necessarily make them a bad breeder. It might just be a personality thing and not related at all to how much they love their puppies and what kind of care they take in their breeding practices. I would hate to see someone branded a bad breeder simply based on a difference in personalities.

I also think it's a very good idea to have a thread on breeders. When I first started looking into the breed I spent lots and lots of time online, researching the breed and trying to research breeders. I live in Nebraska and while there are a couple Havanese breeders, there is only one that I know of that is actively showing. You just don't have the option of joining local clubs, etc, to meet breeders or owners and get more information. I'm glad I took my time and went with the breeder that I did, but looking back, I could have just as easily ended up with a puppy from a less than reputable breeder. At that time, the breeders off of the referral list were all requiring you to pick up the puppy in person. I don't know if this is a policy, or if it was just a coincidence, but it just wasn't feasable at that time. I tried to do things right, but there were lots of ways that I got lucky, and after having horses, I should have known better. 

There is so much important information that we need to get out, to help people make good decisions. The easier we can make it for people to get good information, the better it is for Havanese and for good breeders in general. We can't expect everyone to spend months investigating all that is Havanese. We can't expect everyone to drive 500 miles to pick up a puppy. We can't expect people to keep writing and calling the "good" breeders on the list when they're met with hostility, indifference or smugness. And as much as we don't want to admit this is a problem amongst our breeders, it is. The bottom line is that in many situations, it can become so much simpler to pick up that puppy at the pet shop, or the one for sale in the classified ads.

Wow, I'm all over the place on this one! I can sympathize with the people just getting into the breed and I understand how frustrating it can be to try and do the right thing but keep running into road blocks. 

We've got great faith in you Melissa and we know you can do it, and do it right! Thanks for your dedication!

Beverly


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## Laurief

Beverly,
I agree with you on this. My breeder does not contact me, although if I email her and send pics, she responds, but only once. That does not make her a bad breeder. I too did not do a lot of research when I started my "potatoe chip" collection, and was just lucky to have found my breeder. I have had a few health issues with both the girls, of which I notified the breeder. She stated that none of her dogs had that problem was quick to help me with remedies & advise. I think for those of us that have them for just pets and are not showing or breeding, a health guarantee really doesnt mean much, as I would spend anything to get then healthy without "giving them back" - so all in all I think it is a hard choice. 
Yes a Health guarantee is good, but I cant see where it is implemented very often.


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## marjrc

I also agree that we shouldn't judge a breeder based on personality or whether they enjoy contact on a regular basis with you once you've bought one of their puppies. I know I complained a bit about this regarding my breeder, but really... when I look at the whole picture, I have absolutely no regrets as I fully trust the breeders we dealt with. 

I dont' know how they will react if/when a health issue arises and I need to let them know about it. Fingers crossed that we wont' have to find out! Still, when we spoke on the phone and met in person, we got along very well. 

One thing, though, that I will never do, is get a dog/puppy from a pet shop or a backyard breeder. I just can't ... Now that I know what I know, I will either wait for months if I had to to get a puppy or I'd go to my local shelter and get an older dog there. People can do whatever they want, but I know that once I'm aware of something I can't pretend I don't know anymore... then I'd really have some regrets should something happen!


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## Cosmosmom

Beverly 
I did not think you were all over the place on this topic . I think you expressed yourself very well .
I wish I had stated it as well .
It is a complex issue .


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## Tom King

Keeping up with all the puppies that have been produced is not a personality issue. How else will the breeder know for certain whether any health problems come up?

I know several breeders on the recommended list that are very open. I only say several because I don't know them all. There are a few that I know who aren't. Either is not a reason to be on that list. Some on the list are on there simply because they are on the committee and are there to help answer any questions and offer advice. Pam spends at least an hour each day doing just that. I'm pretty sure Kay spends several times that much.

Most I know who don't ship puppies don't because they are worried about the puppies suffering any type of trauma at such a young age. We have never shipped puppies and never will. We encourage all our puppy buyers, and anyone else for that matter, to visit our pack. But everyone can't do that so we do meet people at airports since we don't expect them to rent a car and drive here from the airport, although quite a few do.


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## whitBmom

I had a good experience and I love how thorough my breeder was in supplying all the testing info (which I verified) of Oreo's lineage. She even started us on puppy insurance just to get us started. She is quite busy, I can appreciate that, I had the privilege of seeing a couple more of her show dogs and they are quite gorgeous. One that particularly reminded me of my old dog that I had in highschool.
Melissa, I am grateful for this forum it gave me a lot of valuable information that reassured me during the research/interiew process. I have never believed in getting any pet from a pet store and because of sites like this one it constantly reassures that I am right in my resolve. I sincerely hope that those looking for a puppy find sites like this to help them and reassure them along the way.


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## Kathy

Something that everyone needs to remember also, is that some breeder's might be busy in their lives at the time you call or email and can't get back to you right away. While I respond to my buyers right away, other's might not. All of my puppy buyers correspond with me regularly and I LOVE IT! I love seeing pictures. In fact I tell all of my puppy buyers, that 1. They actually are becoming a "member" of our family. 2. They are REQUIRED to send pictures!!!!! <grin> They all do and we all enjoy each other. I am not producing puppies just because, but rather to try and IMPROVE the breed.

I just spent over $500.00 having pre-breeding testing done on two of my bitches. I had another reputable breeder tell me I was NUTS for doing it. I however strongly disagree with her. I do complete blood panels and brucellosis and complete health check before breeding to be sure my bitches are still healthy. That is for my peace of mind, as I don't want to breed them if they are not healthy, plus, I don't want to pass on something to the pups.


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## Rita

Tom, Great point. I think it is all about what you expect from them. Some breeders are so busy with shows and lives of their own that they don't get back to you right away. But the problem is if they don't get back at all...........

Also, if you have a health issue, you would think they should get back asap and if not then there is an issue. I have to go to the vet within 72 hours of getting my dog. It is part of my contract. Then I think I have to call the breeder to let her know how it went or even give her paperwork from the vet.

As far as shipping, I always heard stay away from breeders who ship the dog alone by air. I know, I know, I know, please don't blast me with emails. I know some of you had a hard time finding good breeders close to you. But hopefully, we will build this forum up, so that people can get ideas of good breeders that are close to where they live. 

I am just not sure how to go about doing it........... I do know that when I first joined this forum, I searched by State and did not find anyone else in PA. That was my first idea. I was going to PM people in PA for help. So either there are no other people here from PA or people don't list there location. 

Maybe we just need to encourage potential puppy owners to introduce themselves and where they live. Then all of us who live in their area can either PM them breeders in our area or post it (what ever the person is more comfortable with). You can also warn them to stay away.

I would be happy to start an area for PA, NJ, DE. I would give them the link to the local club. I couldn't recommend a lot of breeders personally but hopefully I will join the club and get to know them.

What do you guys think?


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## irnfit

Just to let everyone know that yesterday I emailed Kodi's breeder about our getting a 2nd puppy and to tell her how much fun they are having together. 
Well, when I opened my email tonite, there was a reply from the breeder. Just a short note congratulating us, happy to know that Kodi is doing so well and even a little update on her family. We are even trying to put together a little reunion. 

It was in my contract that they expected contact from us every three months for the first year to let them know how the puppy was doing. And if there were problems, we were to notify them right away.

Even though she doesn't show puppies, and she isn't breeding Kodi's mom anymore, she still likes to know how the puppies are doing. She will be breeding one of Kodi's sisters and I am sure she wants to know that it is a good line. I think this is all we would expect from a breeder - that if we email them, just acknowledge the fact that we thought enough of their breeding and the resulting puppies.


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## Havtahava

> Melissa: "One very IMPORTANT RULE: ... No need to show a litter you just whelped. "


Melissa, I missed this topic when it was originally being discussed. I didn't realize you didn't want litters posted even though we talked about it off the board prior to me posting the photos. I posted them because it was an exciting day and it was conversation - - - and NONE of them were available for sale anyway.

I just feel awkward since I just saw this. Has this rule changed or has it been removed? I know that several of us have done it and I want to make sure it is OK with you before I post any more photos. I am trying to keep them all in one topic and not multiple threads.


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## Melissa Miller

No, this has changed. Since the forum has started, many things have changed. I was worried people would take advantage. But now, Its all ok. 
We have to see litters because we are like a big family. 

And I think its evolved to a good place. I will change that. 

I have been insanely swamped and gone, Im sorry I have been MIA.


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## dboudreau

Thank you Melissa, Without all these wonderful puppy pictures my "MHS" would be unbearable.


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## marjrc

Yaaaaaaaayyyyyy! I NEED those puppy pics too or I suffer horrible withdrawals!!


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## irnfit

Update - Just recently I have been getting replies to my emails to Shelby's breeder. She just sent me pics of Shelby's litter when they were a few weeks old. Maybe her computer was down so she couldn't reply sooner, but we have been keeping in touch recently. Kodi's breeder is always in touch - we email each other every few months, just to keep in touch.


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## Nancy

Where can I find the recommended breeder list?


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## Tom King

http://www.havanese.org/hcaBreederRef.htm


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## kimsmith5

*Health Guarantee*

I see many breeders who offer a 1 year guarantee against genetic problems. This confounds me because a genetic fault is a genetic fault no matter when it turns up. The problem is in the genes and therefore it seems the breeder should have some liablility after the one year is up. Am I looking at this in the wrong manner or can someone explain to me why this 1 year deal is so common?


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## Havtahava

Kim, I think the individual breeders who have that in their contracts would have to answer it. Not everyone has that clause. I don't. 

As for liability, I think the law varies by state. If I recall correctly, in the state of California, in the eye of the law (or maybe it is an IRS issue - I'm not sure), the "value" of the dog drops considerably after the first year so that may be the reason.


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## Thumper

Maybe *some* breeders think that things that show up after a year could be from an "environmental" cause, or accident/injury...like a puppy falling down the stairs and getting hip dysplasia, for example...and maybe they are just protecting themselves from things that happen due to factors outside of their control. Some health problems are caused by diet, etc.

I do think there are breeders that will stand behind their dogs longer than that, even if the contract specifies a year. 

There are some real gems out there, like Kimberly! 

Kara


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## kimsmith5

*Genetic guarantee*

I guess the reality is that if you have owned the dog for a year you are certainly not going to want to return it but it seems that many genetic problems could arise after the "warranty" period. But even at 6 months it would be hard to return a dog. I guess as I look for breeders should I be looking at breeders that offer a longer warranty or is it a non issue. Anyone want to weigh in on this?


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## Thumper

I personally felt OK with the year guarantee (which my breeder gave) and also the same clause to return the dog, regardless of age, for any event that we couldn't take care of it, financially or situational, etc.

I think it really depends on what you are comfortable with. I know there is a risk with any dog, even good breeders sometimes have dogs with problems. But nowhere near the magnitude of problems a dog could have that comes from a puppy mill, or breeder that doesn't do all the appropriate testing on the dogs.

Kara


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## marjrc

Ricky's breeder has a 3 year 'guarantee', but of course there is no way we'd EVER return Ricky no matter how soon a 'defect' might occur. 

What I think is important, is finding a breeder that will be by your side should some health issue come up. Someone who won't poopoo your concerns, but will do their utmost to reassure you and offer payment and/or physical help if location isn't a problem. I think the only way to find out if that breeder really will do those things is to have them written in the contract and to talk to other puppy owners they've dealt with and hear what they have to say. That isn't always possible though due to privacy concerns.


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## kimsmith5

*Genetic guarantee*

Maybe that's where my skepticism lies. When I ask a breeder about the testing and they say they don't test but have never had a problem with their dogs how do I know that maybe problems have arisen after the 1 year period but by then the breeder is off the hook. It just seems odd that some breeders who don't do the testing ask the same $$$ as those breeders who are being more responsible. I asked one breeder for soap shots and he said he had had them done but the "evaluator" never gave him the photos. Is that fishy?? Not knowing enough about how soap shots are done and who evaluates the dogs I have to decide if they are just a disorganized breeder or they are being deceptive. Yikes...


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## marjrc

Well, there are a couple of red flags there, kimsmith. Not having the pictures is like "the check is in the mail" kind of thing. I wouldnt' trust that. NO health tests at all?? Definitely not a good thing. There is no way any breeder can tell what genetic makeup/tendencies their pups have just looking at them! :suspicious: And no, they should not be charging so much, but then what's the point of paying less if there are no health tests done on the parents at least?

I dunno...... check this thread out: http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=790

It might help you!


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## Havtahava

> When I ask a breeder about the testing and they say they don't test but have never had a problem with their dogs how do I know that


Walk away. If they don't health test, or if they say they test, but don't submit the results for verification, I may get flamed for saying this, but I think you can assume they are hiding something. I wouldn't believe them for a minute.

As for the "no photos" part, there is some controversy there, but his reply would send me packing. (I might go packing without soaped photos, but the reply made it a sure thing!)

Kim, there are a lot of good breeders out there, but there are a lot of questionable breeders too. I have a page on my web site called "Buyer Beware". It's short, but it has my opinions on some red flags to avoid.

One other thing (I don't think I have on my site) that is also controversial is I would avoid someone who didn't show their dogs. If they aren't willing to have them judged against the standard before they breed them, then see ya! There are many dogs that don't fit the standard or have had something change so they aren't show eligible, but the breeder should be trying to make dogs that conform to the standard.

Lastly, meet the parents and watch out for dogs that have poor temperaments (whether that be aggressive, which is rare in Havanese, or timid or skittish). A dog with a poor temperament shouldn't be bred. Temperament is the most heritable trait. You want a real Havanese with a real Havanese temperament.

Just my .10¢,

Kimberly


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## kimsmith5

*Genetic guarantee*

That is the best site. I printed that out a few weeks ago when I found it in this forum and realized that there is a lot more to finding the right puppy than seeing a cute one and falling in love with it. This forum is a godsend. Thanks


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## Havtahava

Kim, it looks like you're doing all the right research!

I'd recommend to you, the same as I recommend to people who contact me personally asking for referrals:
Make sure you check out the breeder first.
Then, check out the dogs (verify health testing).
AFTER those two points are done, then you can look at puppies. Don't look at puppies before the other two points because common sense goes out the window. Even the breeders know that and some will try to get you to come "visit" the puppies or "_just see them_" before the other things are done, because *we all know *that puppy faces are irresistable.


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## irnfit

Kimberly, that's a great point. 
once you fall in love with those little faces, you're sunk!


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## mckennasedona

> we all know that puppy faces are irresistable.


Truer words have never been spoken. When we visited our breeder for the first time we had no intentions of claiming a puppy. I wanted to see adult Havs. I figured anyone would love a Hav puppy but puppies grow up.

It so happened that she had dogs ranging from 8 weeks up to 6 years (some of them she was dog-sitting). I had been doing my homework and was ready to see if I liked the adults as much as the puppies. Well, of course I did, but it was my HUSBAND who uttered the immortal words, "are any of the puppies available?" This from Mr. "we could never pay that much for a dog!"

That being said, contact some breeders and talk to them. Really listen to what they have to say. If you get one like ours he or she will LOVE to talk about their dogs. their conformation shows, their dogs' health, etc. Take the idea of buying a puppy out of the picture and ask yourself if you would trust doing business with this person in any other capacity. Go with your gut feeling. If its a good fit, then go play with puppies.....the rest will be history.

Susan


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## dboudreau

I would like to add just one thing, "Take your time". You will have this little furball in your life for 15 years or more. It is worth the time to get it right. Good luck in your search.


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## EstrellaVila

I think an internal breeder referral list should be tracked where you can actually talk to the person that made the comments. Something where people can't get sue crazy over, and enough to give us more help/info in the decision process. Just like when you pick a school for your kids, there is always bad stuff, but if you hear it first hand and know what to look for, you can make a more informed decision. It could be organized by state/location and breeder name. Then a list of people who bought from there, and you can PM them yourself. If a breeder was to get crazy and either talk them selves up or others down, I think that by talking to enough people you would see what is bogus....


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## Heidi's Happy Havanese

I think this can be a really great way to find out more about reputable Breeders in your area! Unfortunately, there *are* those that assume and say things that are not true. Which has happened to me on your forum! It has not really affected my breeding or sales that I am aware of... but does obviously upset me that the ones who said really untrue things about me never came to see me, never bothered to check me out or ask for any health testing results on my Havanese, or references! Just made accusations and assumptions that were so untrue. This of course is posted on google, when my name is googled! Even after someone defended me on your forum, who has one of my Havanese, the false accusations continued! So I think bad experiences should be told, and if you have been to a breeder's house and see bad breeding practices or you have been dealt with poorly or unfairly, have a Havanese with health issues, from poor breeding or matching mates..then it should be known! I encounter Havanese homes with horror stories of their precious pup having heart, Lux. patella, hip, eye problems all the time. These are perhaps the ones in need of saying buyer beware! As these are predisposed to the breed, I am not sayng anyone who has whelped a pup with any of these afflictions are bad breeders. I have not had any in the 7 years I have bred, but that does not mean I will never have one, correct? We, as reputable breeders, should do all we can to Health Test our Havanese and check out their full lineage for compatibility and Health, Correct? I do. So before speculation and false accusations, I just ask please check out the breeder in question a little more before throwing that dagger! Best Regards, Heidi Gonzales Tacoma WA Vet: Firgrove 253-848-1563 - Havanese-Facebook - http://heidishappyhavanese.com - My number: 253-202-1563 Happy always to answer any and all questions!


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## davetgabby

Why are you venting on an old thread. Get on with your life.


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