# Feedback on vaccinations



## jenisny (Aug 26, 2010)

So we went to the veterinarian today and were trying to follow the breeder's recommendations on vaccinations. My breeder has done lots of research on vaccinations on reactions in the Havanese, and basically recommends waiting a bit longer for most shots (other than puppy boosters), spacing them out to only give one shot per day, and giving as few shots as possible. I have heard that Havanese are somewhat sensitive to shots. At the one year checkup, she recommended a titers test vs. a booster. Needless to say, I got some push back from the vet. The vet wants to work with us and find a happy medium, and is willing to space out shots and not do them on the same day. She is completely baffled by the recommendation to do a titers test because she says they are expensive and unreliable. She also questions some of the recommended timing. We are required to get boosters every three years by law here. She is willing to space them out that far on an alternating yearly schedule (rabies and booster). 

I am feeling a little caught in the middle because my breeder has 19 years of experience with this breed, but the vet has more medical experience, and has treated other Havanese. I myself am not a vaccination enthusiast with my own children and not over zealous at giving shots, but I am not knowledgeable enough, yet I am the advocate for my dog and want to do the right thing for him. 

What are some of your experiences with vaccinations and any reactions? What is some of the other expertise on timing and which shots, etc.?


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## Lizzie'sMom (Oct 13, 2010)

Good question!! I am interested in the opinions of those here. I had read that Havanese are sensitive to vaccines as well as anesthetic.


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## CacheHavs (Aug 2, 2007)

let me tell you only my thoughts and opinions. I myself only believe in giving the necessary shots needed. there are many studies out there that have proven that after the puppy shots and then their one year old booster that the dogs are usually covered for there life. think about it, do you get shots every year? No so then why would we continue to put these shots into out pets? Most of the shots that are given to you pet is of a modify live virus, meaning you are giving them part of the disease, and by doing that you are in layman's terms teaching the body to fight off that virus, well if you go and give them another vaccine for the same thing and their immunity is high, then all you are doing is breaking down that immunity as now the body is fighting off the new live virus that you just injected into them. you are not raising their levels of immunity, but rather breaking it down. Does that make sense?

Here is an article that I had received from a vet a long time ago maybe it will help explain things a little better for you. I will have to break this down into the next 5 posts.



> Vaccines - Are They Safe for Your Dog?​ Written by: Dee Blanco who is a holistic veterinarian practicing in Santa Fe, New Mexico. She is listed under Altvetmed.
> The questions surrounding the issue of veterinary vaccinations are many. My intent is to open other doors of thought that might help you make your decisions align with your animals well being, your lifestyle, your left and right brain and most importantly - your heart. ... Because I cannot completely separate from this topic, you will clearly hear my bias, my emotions as well as my perspective from my years practicing allopathy and subsequently homeopathy. I will make recommendations based both on this study of many years and on the way I hope to be of help in the world.
> I strongly recommend for you to let this info simmer a bit ... please make sure to do more research. And always listen to your inner voice. You are your own authority, you are your animal's primary health care practitioner, on call, 24 hours a day. You may decide some of this info is useful, and some you will let go by. Please make sure you do not allow fear to run your decisions.
> I have spent a good amount of time in the last 12 of my 19 years as a vet, studying the issue of vaccinations. During this time, in my holistic vet practice, I have been able to see the clinical manifestations and harmful effects of the use and abuse of vaccinations. I have also been able to see improvements of many common maladies in our domestic animals using holistic medicines, in particular homeopathy. It is from this clinical standpoint as well as my own study of the available info on vaccinations that I present my info. I am continually compiling more info in my 'database', so if you would like to add anything you might have, please feel free to send me your info.
> ...


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## CacheHavs (Aug 2, 2007)

Part II



> *Why Vaccines Cause Problems *
> Typically, the vaccines are injected into the body; subcutaneously (under the skin) or intramuscularly (in the muscle). These vaccines usually have numerous viruses as well as other ingredients in them. Exceptions to this include the rabies, corona, and bordatella vaccines. Herein lies the second and third problem with the vaccination process.
> The process of injecting numerous viruses at one time into the body does not mimic in any way what we would see in the natural world. There would never be such an enormous exposure to that many microorganisms at one time. ... These diseases have never, in the real world, occurred at one time, never. The purpose for which mother nature uses and continues to use acute illness is to thin out the population, whereby the fittest survive. Everything in nature has a rhythm, everything. The rhythm of distemper, of polio, of measles, of influenza, of parvo, of rabies are all on a schedule. This schedule, much to the chagrin of the vet profession, is not determined by the vet profession!
> Neil Miller, a father of two, in his desire to understand the issues around vaccinations for his children, decided to explore the issue extensively. He studied the rise and fall and the death rate of the childhood diseases of polio, measles, and whooping cough in both the US and the UK. He compared the death rates and the point at which vaccinations were introduced. Much to his surprise, in all three of these diseases, he saw that the death rates starting in the early 1900s were markedly decreasing by the time the vaccines were introduced. In the case of polio there was actually a bit of an increase after the vaccines. The increased numbers of deaths after polio vaccines were covered up by reclassifying them as aseptic meningitis. Therefore the deaths didn't show up in the records, but it is quite clear that vaccinations did not really have a beneficial impact on the already declining health rate. The reason the diseases were declining had more to do with the increased natural resistance and better understanding about prevention through hygiene.
> ...


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## CacheHavs (Aug 2, 2007)

Part III


> *Why Are We Vaccinating Yearly? *
> This is a really good question, isn't it? The first massive vaccination program began in the 1940s and the 50s for distemper and adenovirus. These early vaccines showed that one third of the puppies did not maintain protective titers to distempter for one year after the initial vaccination. By the way, we have yet to talk about susceptibility, which these researchers did not take into account. This led to the recommendation in 1959 that dogs should be vaccinated annually, as a safety measure. Distemper was a horrible, life threatening disease and was capable of going through a population of puppies very quickly. Usually it caused gastrointestinal symptoms such as bloody diarrhea (much like Parvo), or respiratory symptoms, and in the most severe state would cause neurological symptoms which were rarely successfully treated.
> In 1961, recommendations that a serum analysis of the blood was the best way to determine immunological protection. Since clients would need to pay for that, plus an exam, and possibly the re-vaccination fee, it would be easier and cheaper, based on the local incidence of distempter, the history of the animal, and the potential risk, that annual vaccinations be given. Thus start the annual standard of practice. There was no science here! Unfortunately, there were few people willing to push for the serum analysis, or to really look at the exposure of each animal, or to look at any other factors influencing susceptibility.
> Dr. Ron Schultz and the U. of Wisconsin-Madison, a veterinary immunologist, questions the lack of scientific evidence to support our current practices. In his article in the 1992 edition of Current Veterinary Therapy, Dr Schultz and his co-author, Dr. Phillips, discuss the issue. Their words follow: "A practice that was started many years ago and that lacks scientific validity or verification is annual vaccinations. Almost without exception there is no immunologic requirement for annual revaccination. Immunity to viruses persists for years or for the life of the animal. Successful vaccination to most bacterial pathogens produces an immunologic memory that remains for years, allowing an animal to develop a protective anamnestic (secondary) response when exposed to virulent organisms. Only the immune response to toxins requires boosters (e.g. tetanus toxin booster, in humans, is recommended once every 7-10 years) and no toxin vaccines are currently used for dogs and cats. Furthermore, revaccination with most viral vaccines fails to stimulate an anamnestic response as a result of interference by existing antibodies (similar to maternal antibody interference). The practice of annual vaccination in our opinion should be considered of questionable efficacy unless it is used as a mechanism to provide an annual physical exam or is required by law (i.e. certain states require annual revaccination for rabies)."
> ...


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## CacheHavs (Aug 2, 2007)

part IV



> *What Are the Adverse Reactions, If Any? *
> Unfortunately, adverse reactions to vaccines have been considered to be the immediate hypersensitivity reactions of anaphylaxis. This severely limits the types of reactions that are ever even considered to be related to vaccines. Other problems surface which make accurate tallying of adverse reactions difficult. At present time there are no easy or effective reporting systems; many vets are reluctant to report even those where an animal dies, and the cause-effect relationship is not always clear. Even to those who believe that many of the illnesses we see, both acute and chronic, are directly related to over-vaccination, it is still at times difficult to show how this works. There are many situations where the perfectly healthy puppy is taken at 6 weeks for his first vaccines. Maybe he has a slight fever or lack of appetite and energy for a day or so. Then he is returned 2 to 3 weeks later for more vaccines. Maybe he will show another fever or maybe a day of diarrhea. Then he is returned in 2 or 3 weeks for more vaccines. Maybe he starts to itch a bit. Often by the time the pup is 6 months old he has several problems going on. He often has loose stools and he itches, but there are no fleas. Thus begins the first stages of chronic illness brought on by the vaccines.
> When a perfectly healthy individual is given viruses that cause illness, the animal is going to manifest illness-related symptoms. This healthy individual is asked to maintain a low-level stimulation of a state of distemper, a low level state of parvo, a low level state of rabies, and so on. As long as you are in a low level state of illness you are not in a high level state of health. Therefore, the vaccines provide protection by keeping the body in a diseased state of health. Often the animal will not manifest the illness it is vaccinated for, at least not in its acute form, but it will manifest in other conditions. Usually these conditions are inherited weaknesses.
> Chronic symptoms look very much like the acute illnesses but they are often not life-threatening unless allowed to continue for years and years.
> ...


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## CacheHavs (Aug 2, 2007)

And the last part, sorry it was so long.



> Now you could be wondering why I am so bold to 'blame' all these and more on vaccines. The reason is simple: I have an empirical, call it experimental lab where I visit daily and watch the animals, year after year. In the short years of my career I have seen the incredible increase in all these illnesses, some we never even learned in vet school. In fact, my vet school is now primarily an oncology treatment center! This was not the case a short 20 years ago. I have also spoken with many vets who have practiced longer than I and their response is the same. They did not see the level of chronic illness, nor the resistant and concretized type of illnesses that we see today.
> Because I am able to use homeopathic remedies to help resolve these effects of the vaccines I am able to see first hand the cause-effect relationship. I have also looked at the info of those who have come before me to help in this process. One such person was J. Compton Burnett, a British physician of the late 1800s and early 1900s. Burnett was a proponent of the smallpox vaccine until he started noticing that the vaccines given to young people in the prime of their lives were causing many 'other' health problems. He coined the term 'vaccinosis' to describe the illnesses caused by vaccines, separate from the illnesses they were protecting against. Much of what Burnett saw closely resembles what we see today in our animals. This is interesting how this human model is actually teaching us about what happens with animals.
> Burnett further verified his hypothesis by giving the homeopathic remedy, Thuja, to many of these vaccinated individuals, as was described by Hahnneman. He was able to reverse many of these harmful effects. This is still a widely used remedy for the effects of vaccines.
> Alternatives
> ...


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I follow Jean Dobb's 2010 recommendations. Basically, don't over vaccinate 

Titers every 3 years.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I don't think your vet is "working with you" if s/he is not willing to treat your dog the way you think it should be treated. 

Rabies vaccines are one thing. Unfortunately, law requires these on a set schedule. Here we are required to revaccinate for Rabies every 3 years. There are strong indications that dogs are well protected as long as 8 years out, but I don't know of any municipality that has gone to this longer time frame. (though there are groups lobbying for it) The possible ramifications of NOT vaccinating your dog for Rabies, and having anyone SAY your dog has bitten them or their child are just not wort the risk. Your dog could end up in long-term COMPLETE quarantine or even euthanized. Not worth the risk, IMO.

The other vaccines are not in the same category. There is no HUMAN risk with the other diseases; the risk is only to your dog. For that reason, YOU should be the one to make the final decision on what's right for them. I also followed Dr. Dodd's protocol, more or less. Kodi's puppy shots were spaced out at least 2 weeks apart. Yes, I had to pay for more office visits, but it was worth it. He had his one year boosters, as suggested, also spread 2 weeks apart. At MY vet's suggestion for a possibly vaccine sensitive breed, he was pre-medicated with Benadryl for each shot. From this time forward, except for Rabies, which is mandated by law, we will only draw titers unless he shows a NEED for a booster.

In the end, you are the consumer. If you don't want your dog vaccinated, you don't need to do it. Your vet should respect that. If not, I'd be looking for a new vet. I am blessed to have a WONDERFUL vet who stays right up to date on this kind of thing and is also very well versed in the specific needs of different types of dogs. And if he doesn't know, he'll look into it for you. There are other vets who work in his practice (he is the owner) but I make my appointments with him. If you can't establish a trusting working relationship with your vet, it might be time to look elsewhere.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

lfung5 said:


> I follow Jean Dobb's 2010 recommendations. Basically, don't over vaccinate
> 
> Titers every 3 years.


This is always a personal choice but in my opinion, I think Jean Dodd's protocol for vaccinations is slowly becoming ingrained into the public . and will become a standard , if such a thing ever were to exist. Her advice is hand in hand with Dr. Schultz' (another leader in pet vac. research.) Here's the article. http://www.weim.net/emberweims/Vaccine.html


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## jenisny (Aug 26, 2010)

So there is research suggesting the titers test instead of vaccinations. This is what I needed to know. The vet was telling me that the titers test were expensive and unreliable. She was fine vaccinating every three years because that's what the law stipulates and working with me not to overvaccinate and spread out the shots. She questioned the need for a titers test, which she felt were unreliable and an unnecessary expense for me. She would do it and would do whatever I wanted so long as it followed the law and I could make a case for it. My question is that if the law says to vaccinate every three years, why do I need a titers test if I have to get the shot anyways?

I am not someone who would give a lot of vaccinations and like to spread out my vaccinations. This was all helpful information to give me reasons why my inclinations are supported.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I think the law only requires rabies every 3 years. Vets usually try to push the distemper and parvo yearly. I just took Scudder to the vet for his 3 year rabies shot and told them not to titer, until the 3 year mark. If the titer comes back showing he needs a booster, I will give it. Most times the titer comes back fine and I don't need to booster. I am pretty sure you don't have to give any vaccine by law, beside rabies.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Same goes here in Canada Linda, Rabies has to be every two years.(we're still getting fleeced) and the other core vaccinations are at YOUR discretion., not the vet's.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

I am currently reading a book that was recommended to me - "the Nature of Animal Healing" by Martin Goldstein, DVM. He seems to feel the same as Dr. Dodds. I was questioning about the vacines with my guys, as they have always had the yearly shots, and this year Lily got the DHP and her Rabies on the same day - and she was miserable for 2 days!!! So I started researching and when Lexi and Logan go next week, I will ask them to schedule the DHP for 3years out and then I will titer. So far the book is very interesting. If your vet is willing to work with you, great - if not I would find one that is willing to talk it over with you and listen to what you want.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Right on Laurie. I'm still not sure if I will ever do titers. I might just do the rabies by law and revaccinate the core vacs in four years. She should be good for life then Yeah the rabies should be separated by four weeks from the cores.


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## paisley (Aug 1, 2010)

I have been studying vaccine issues for the past 6 years and if I would have written a thoughtful thesis it would have looked much like this homeopathic vet's. I am of firm conviction that vaccines have played a huge role in the way our human population has grown sicker- not healthier. I have not had Paisley revaccinated since bringing her home. I am still trying to decide what to do about Rabies. I will probably give it to her but will wait as long as possible. We do have her outdoors quite a bit and worry a bit about raccoons. 
I have had all my children get a titer done and put the results in their cumulative folders at school so they cannot argue that my child isn't vaccinated. We did- just not on the government's recommended schedule. Currently, children before they start school (age 5) are "recommended " to have over 35 vaccines. In the 60-70s children were given only 10. And now they don't even give small pox. It is quite alarming. 
Anyhoo, I haven't checked in on this forum for quite awhile. Glad I saw this thread. Here is a current pic of Paisley


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I hear you. And get back to share these wonderful opinions more often. And what a gorgeous looking Paisley.


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

I agree with doing what Jean Dodds suggests but my question is what if you have to board your dog for some reason? Don't they require proof of vaccines? As it was, my vet was not to thrilled by my stand not to give any more shots after the one year booster. But, he was genial about it (customer is always right!) but I know he doesn't agree with me. Also, here in Georgia we have to get them a yearly rabies shot and I do that since it is a law. Don't tell me to find a holistic vet - remember I'm in south Georgia.......lol


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

Paisley is a doll! You should check in more often so you don't miss anything!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Kathie said:


> I agree with doing what Jean Dodds suggests but my question is what if you have to board your dog for some reason? Don't they require proof of vaccines? As it was, my vet was not to thrilled by my stand not to give any more shots after the one year booster. But, he was genial about it (customer is always right!) but I know he doesn't agree with me. Also, here in Georgia we have to get them a yearly rabies shot and I do that since it is a law. Don't tell me to find a holistic vet - remember I'm in south Georgia.......lol


Yeah Kathie, we can't win for losing. If you have no choice go with what Jean says ...."Boretella
(Intranasal)
(killed) Only recommended 3 days prior to boarding when required.
Protects against 2 of the possible 8 causes of kennel cough.
Duration of immunity 6 months " Every thing about it seems hit and miss. It my opinion it's strictly a money making vac . Generally speaking vac for Boretella is like us getting vaccinated to prevent the common cold. JMO> Although right now I wish we had a vac for these friggin viruses. LOL


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Kathie said:


> Paisley is a doll! You should check in more often so you don't miss anything!


Can't you tell Kathie and I are partial to the whites..ound:


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## jenisny (Aug 26, 2010)

OK, now this is my other concern. I got the third puppy booster yesterday, and the instructions from my breeder did not want me to get the rabies the same day. My vet wanted my dog protected against rabies asap. So we scheduled it for Tuesday. Is this too soon then? Her argument is that she has treated several Havanese and not seen any reaction. She was also concerned that he was "overdue" for his bordatella, but if it only last for 6 months, what is the rush? 

I will check to see if the boosters are required by law because that doesn't make sense that they would be. But if they last for 7 years, I should do a titers after 3? Are they that expensive, and are they reliable? Never knew you could do this for your kids. Maybe I need to ask around for a different breeder.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

jenisny said:


> OK, now this is my other concern. I got the third puppy booster yesterday, and the instructions from my breeder did not want me to get the rabies the same day. My vet wanted my dog protected against rabies asap. So we scheduled it for Tuesday. Is this too soon then? Her argument is that she has treated several Havanese and not seen any reaction. She was also concerned that he was "overdue" for his bordatella, but if it only last for 6 months, what is the rush?
> 
> I will check to see if the boosters are required by law because that doesn't make sense that they would be. But if they last for 7 years, I should do a titers after 3? Are they that expensive, and are they reliable? Never knew you could do this for your kids. Maybe I need to ask around for a different breeder.


If your laws don't require it. I'd wait the four weeks. He has as much chance of getting rabies in the next four weeks, as I do in winning the lottery. JMO I would also insist that this extra appointment not result in any higher expense. JMO


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

Dave, Abby is a sable so she looks like a white that hasn't been bathed in a couple of months!

Back to the vaccines - don't you have to have proof that their vaccines are updated? If you don't get them then what do you do? I have never boarded a dog but you never know when an emergency situation may arise with no other choice. What then?


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Kathie said:


> Dave, Abby is a sable so she looks like a white that hasn't been bathed in a couple of months!
> 
> Back to the vaccines - don't you have to have proof that their vaccines are updated? If you don't get them then what do you do? I have never boarded a dog but you never know when an emergency situation may arise with no other choice. What then?


Not around here. They generally just need the rabies and or bordetella.


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

Thanks, Dave! Maybe that's all they need here, too - since I've never used one I've never checked. I'll have to call and check on that.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Kathie said:


> Thanks, Dave! Maybe that's all they need here, too - since I've never used one I've never checked. I'll have to call and check on that.


OOOOhhhh Kathie , you're not going to put your"sable" (I never knew that) Abby in a kennel LOL


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## jenisny (Aug 26, 2010)

I was already going to insist that the only additional cost be the shot itself. Thank you all for your advice. My breeder gave me great advice too, but it is helpful to have that reinforcement and additional information so I feel better prepared to make wise decisions for my dog. I don't foresee boarding my dog, but is the bordatella only needed once or are boosters needed? I was planning to do this next month, but they didn't want me to wait this long for this one either. The dog rarely leaves the house as it's winter, but my only concern would be the large amount of squirrels in our backyard for rabies.


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

I would not worry about either of those vaccines. Waiting should not be a problem.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

jenisny said:


> I was already going to insist that the only additional cost be the shot itself. Thank you all for your advice. My breeder gave me great advice too, but it is helpful to have that reinforcement and additional information so I feel better prepared to make wise decisions for my dog. I don't foresee boarding my dog, but is the bordatella only needed once or are boosters needed? I was planning to do this next month, but they didn't want me to wait this long for this one either. The dog rarely leaves the house as it's winter, but my only concern would be the large amount of squirrels in our backyard for rabies.


 Like Jean recommends , I wouldn't give the bordatella unless it was required to board. If you board regularily then you might need them every six months.


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## jenisny (Aug 26, 2010)

Thanks everyone. I might cancel his rabies vaccine on Tuesday and wait like I originally planned.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Right on


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Kathie said:


> I agree with doing what Jean Dodds suggests but my question is what if you have to board your dog for some reason? Don't they require proof of vaccines? As it was, my vet was not to thrilled by my stand not to give any more shots after the one year booster. But, he was genial about it (customer is always right!) but I know he doesn't agree with me. Also, here in Georgia we have to get them a yearly rabies shot and I do that since it is a law. Don't tell me to find a holistic vet - remember I'm in south Georgia.......lol


I believe that most will accept the titer results as proof . (except for Rabies)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jenisny said:


> OK, now this is my other concern. I got the third puppy booster yesterday, and the instructions from my breeder did not want me to get the rabies the same day. My vet wanted my dog protected against rabies asap. So we scheduled it for Tuesday. Is this too soon then?


My vet suggested a MINIMUM of two weeks between vaccines ASSUMING that there is no adverse reaction to the one before.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jenisny said:


> I was already going to insist that the only additional cost be the shot itself. Thank you all for your advice. My breeder gave me great advice too, but it is helpful to have that reinforcement and additional information so I feel better prepared to make wise decisions for my dog. I don't foresee boarding my dog, but is the bordatella only needed once or are boosters needed? I was planning to do this next month, but they didn't want me to wait this long for this one either. The dog rarely leaves the house as it's winter, but my only concern would be the large amount of squirrels in our backyard for rabies.


Kodi has never had Bordatella, and I don't have any intention of giving it to him. We don't go to dog parks, he doesn't go to day care or a boarding facility. So there is no one who requires him to have it. Kennel Cough is an annoying thing to go through, but rarely fatal. We'll take our chances.


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## TrishK (Nov 29, 2010)

Does anyone know what it costs to have titers done? I know it will vary from place to place, but ballpark? Sammy got the three-year rabbies last summer according to the documents that came with him, so he's not due again until 2013. Other than rabies, are there other annual shots that they are supposed to get? Have to get? Legally required to get? Shouldn't get?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TrishK said:


> Does anyone know what it costs to have titers done? I know it will vary from place to place, but ballpark? Sammy got the three-year rabbies last summer according to the documents that came with him, so he's not due again until 2013. Other than rabies, are there other annual shots that they are supposed to get? Have to get? Legally required to get? Shouldn't get?


I don't think that anything but Rabies is required by law anywhere.

Here is Dr. Dodd's vaccine protocol:

http://www.dogs4dogs.com/puppy-shots.htm

I don't know how much titers are for sure, though I know I was told that someone had them done for about $70. Kodi isn't old enough to need them yet.


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## TrishK (Nov 29, 2010)

Thanks Karen.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

I believe that I was charged about $125 for Titer on one of my rescues. But I live in an area where the vet costs are kinda high. 

AS for Bordatella - I took Lily and Lexi to a "day care" place for a trial - just to see how comfortable they were in case I needed them. They required that they have the Bordatella shot. They received it. AFter watching Lily stress out for 1 1/2 hours on the videocam I went and picked them back up as she was so stressed out! Well 4 days later - both of them got Bordatella, but not after playing with my friends two Havs who in turn got it as well!!! So that shot is not 100% 
Rabies is required in our own every 3 years so I don't have much of a choice on that. 
It will be interesting to see how "understanding" my vet is about my feelings on the DHP shots.


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## Becky Chittenden (Feb 4, 2009)

The only dogs I ever have given bordatella to are the ones I take to classes and shows. Also, the only two that have gotten bordatella were two I took to a show and the vaccine was current. I've decided it is unnecessary as the ones at home, and they live together in the house didn't get it. 
I also understand that titers aren't great because they could result in a dog being protected one day and a week later hardly at all. 
Oh, about bordatella, a number of handler I know say don't ever give the bordatella shots but use the nasal type.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Becky Chittenden said:


> I also understand that titers aren't great because they could result in a dog being protected one day and a week later hardly at all.


That doesn't make any sense that titers would go from high to so long the dog was no longer unprotected in a short period of time. Everything I have ever read suggests that immunity (and that's what a titer shows) slowly declines over a period of time.


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## LilyMyLove (Jul 11, 2009)

Lily had titers at one year (for distemper/parvo), I just looked at the bill and it was $65. plus her annual exam office visit of $50. We go to the dog park every day so she had an intranasal bordatella, but that will be her last one as I don't feel its necessary.

I got a little pushback from the vet about the titers thing, but in the end he seemed surprised that they were so strong and fine with the results and my decision. He's pretty used to my crunchy hippie ways though as I don't use any pesticide treatments on her for ticks or any other nasty stuff. I am very careful because when she was a puppy she was knocked out for 2 days after a vaccine, so now she gets benadryl before any vaccine (which from now on, will only be rabies).


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## Leigh96 (Dec 20, 2010)

Vaccines are an issue that I will be dealing with soon. As someone who spaced the vaccines out for my kids, I'm glad that this issue is also being addressed for our dogs as well. How different is Dr. Dodd's vaccine protocol than the traditional vaccination schedule?


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## jenisny (Aug 26, 2010)

I read Dr. Dodd's protocol, and I am fully on board with minimizing vaccinations. But I still wonder at the need for a titers. I came across this article that discusses the inaccuracies that a titer test can provide. If the immunizations are really proving to work for 7 years or so, then why do I need to do a titers or re-vaccinate every year? 
http://www.caberfeidh.com/CanineTiters.htm


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jenisny said:


> I read Dr. Dodd's protocol, and I am fully on board with minimizing vaccinations. But I still wonder at the need for a titers. I came across this article that discusses the inaccuracies that a titer test can provide. If the immunizations are really proving to work for 7 years or so, then why do I need to do a titers or re-vaccinate every year?
> http://www.caberfeidh.com/CanineTiters.htm


Dr Dodd recommends titers every 3 years, not every year. I think if my dog's titer was dropping, I'd be more inclined to check it the next year than if it was still very high.

As far as immunizations lasting 7 years, I don't think they know that for certain. They still aren't sure how long they are lasting. That's why titers make sense.

It's like the Chicken Pox shot for kids. My 20 year old son was one of the first to get it, because he had VERY severe asthma, and it was important to protect him from a disease that can cause life-threatening problems in asthmatic kids. I was told at the time that they really had no idea how long the immunization would last for. Well, lo and behold, in HS, he came down with a VERY mild case of Chicken Pox. (probably because he was still somewhat resistant to the disease) He had just a couple of bubbles and felt absolutely fine, though we needed to keep him out of school for a week. Shortly thereafter, they started routinely re-vaccinating kids for Chicken Pox as teenagers if they'd had the vaccine as a little one.

As one who has been through Shingles, I wish THAT shot had been around when I was a kid!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jenisny said:


> I read Dr. Dodd's protocol, and I am fully on board with minimizing vaccinations. But I still wonder at the need for a titers. I came across this article that discusses the inaccuracies that a titer test can provide. If the immunizations are really proving to work for 7 years or so, then why do I need to do a titers or re-vaccinate every year?
> http://www.caberfeidh.com/CanineTiters.htm


BTW, I just went and read this article, but it is 12 years old. I'd really want to see something more recent to believe that it doesn't make sense to do titers from time to time.


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## TrishK (Nov 29, 2010)

*Titer explanation (layman's terms) *

Titer
A titer is a measurement of the amount or concentration of a substance in a solution. It usually refers to the amount antibodies found in a patient's blood.

Blood titer measurements can be very helpful in determining medical treatment. Antibody titers can tell the doctor if the patient has immunity to diseases such as measles, small pox, and hepatitis. The measurement is expressed as a ratio, such as 1:40.

Titers do not generally suddenly change overnight unless there is an underlying disease condition causing antibody depletion.

A blood serum sample containing antibody is diluted serially (1:2, 1:4, 1:8, 1:16... and so on). Using an appropriate detection method (colorimetric, chromatographic etc.), each dilution is tested for the presence of detectable levels of antibody. The assigned titer value is indicative of the last dilution in which the antibody was detected. For example, if antibody was detected in each of the tubes listed above, but not in a 1:32 dilution, the titer is said to be 16. If it is detected in the 1:2 and 1:4 dilutions, but no others, the titer is said to be 4. Therefore the titer is the degree to which the antibody-serum solution can be diluted and still contain detectable amounts of antibody.

Hope this helps.


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## jenisny (Aug 26, 2010)

Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate all of your input to educate me on this subject as I have been worrying all weekend.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

They know that the core vacs are lasting at least three years, and some much longer. Even the companies producing the vacs admit this. Here is Dr. Schultz research http://www.cedarbayvet.com/duration_of_immunity.htm


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

And from another article quoting Dr. Schultz 

"As to titers: A zero titer doesn't mean a previously vaccinated adult dog is no longer immune. That is because titers measure circulating antibody, and dogs (and humans!) don't need circulating antibody to be immune to something. Immunity comes from "memory cells," which we have no way to measure. It is the memory cells that tell the body to form the antibodies when a previously encountered virus re-infects the body. (Science 1999;286:1377-1381, 1381-1383. "Immune system's memory does not need reminders.") If the animal recently encountered the virus, their level of antibody might be quite high, but that doesn't mean they are more immune than an animal with a zero titer

And another thing he mentioned is that a low titer reading does not mean low protection. He compared it to being pregnant , either you are or you aren't.


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## Cailleach (Jan 30, 2010)

I am a long time minimalist when it comes to some vetting and I agree with personal choice.
I strongly feel that healthy animals immune systems as well as human do not require immunization. I have had my share of people who disagree with me adamantly who tell me I am not part of the solution. For the training classes we attend it is mandatory to have administered shots and as much as I disagree with them I have had my dogs victim to "the rules" as titre tests are not good enough for them. I hate my dogs being held victim to what I feel are unnecessary injections of foreign bodies but in order to participate I did reluctantly as asked. This makes me really question if it's worth it to risk the health of my dogs to participate in events that we like doing.


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