# Puppy Teeth and Surgery



## Henry&Kate (Mar 29, 2017)

So Henry had oral surgery on Friday. 

Our vet had noted about 6 weeks ago that he had 'abnormalities" on his gums and that none of his puppy premolars had come in, which normally happens by about 8 weeks. 

He was examined by a veterinary dentist who said that his premolars were imbedded in the gums and had not erupted as they should. This would cause more problems as his permanent teeth tried to come in as well. They don't know what causes this to happen although toy dogs are more prone to it. And Havanese are mentioned specifically as a breed it happens to. the surgery involves cutting the gums and removing excess tissue to allow the teeth to erupt and to extract any teeth not in the correct position. 

It was so hard to leave him at the dentist knowing they were going to hurt him. But the good news was that they ended up only having to do his upper gums; the lower teeth were starting to erupt. And his teeth were positioned well and his permanent teeth are ready to come in. Actually they showed me some amazing X-rays where you can see both sets of teeth. 

What was astonishing to me was his recovery. They called me shortly after he was out of surgery and told me he had already eaten his regular food! That night at home he was running around, chewing on toys. No signs he'd been through surgery. 

So I'm posting this in case anyone else finds out their puppy's teeth haven't come in and this procedure is recommended. I was really worried before hand but it wasn't as bad as I had expected. he will need to have a follow up exam as his permanent teeth come in to ensure they are coming in correctly. Dogs that experience it with puppy teeth are more likely to experience it again with permanent teeth. But getting it done while they're young is supposed to prevent a lot of problems later.


----------



## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Really glad to hear everything went so well. Thanks for sharing for the benefit of us all. Shama is going to have her teeth cleaned at the end of this month, and I was nervous about that. Hearing your story gives me more confidence!


----------



## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

I am sorry your sweet new baby needed this. I like the way you waited until things were mostly resolved to post. You are stronger than me, I would have posted that they were going to cut my puppy's gums, I am worried, boo hoo. Good for you for being so cool. I worry my havs pick up on my helicopter antics, and they are worse dogs for it!


----------



## Henry&Kate (Mar 29, 2017)

Thanks Marni. But I admit I was pretty well freaked out when the vet first noticed there was a problem. It felt as if I had brought my perfect little puppy into the office and suddenly he had a serious problem. And there wasn't a lot of info on the internet on this condition either. So I really had no idea what it was. Fortunately the breeder, who also was unfamiliar with it, was great and got a referral to a wonderful veterinary dental practice in MA.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Henry&Kate said:


> So Henry had oral surgery on Friday.
> 
> Our vet had noted about 6 weeks ago that he had 'abnormalities" on his gums and that none of his puppy premolars had come in, which normally happens by about 8 weeks.
> 
> ...


I am SO glad to hear it went well! I was SO worried about "my favorite boy"! Give him a hug from "Auntie Karen"!


----------



## Henry&Kate (Mar 29, 2017)

Hug delivered!


----------



## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Following up to my earlier post . . . When Shama went in for her teeth cleaning, the X-ray showed that she needed to have two crown amputations due to resorptive lesions and four extractions due to exposed roots (all) and bone loss (two). Here's a good article I found on the topic:

https://www.dogbeachvet.com/pet-owners/common-problems/tooth-resorption

Our vet, whom we really trust, noted on the paperwork, "All the problem teeth are gone! This will allow her remaining teeth a better chance for long-term health." So Shama had six teeth removed (due to either crown amputation or extraction), and she was already missing eight teeth (adult teeth that never came in - I wonder how common that is?), so now she only has 28 out of 42 teeth. (I'd heard before the comment that it's really something that all dogs, from the largest to the the tiniest have 42 teeth; humans only have 32 teeth . . .) One of the vet techs reassured us that Shama would be fine with only 28 teeth, especially since all those removed had been premolars (see article link below). She told us that her rescue dog has NO teeth and still lives a fine life. (We are also wondering if the reason she pawed at her face so much was because her teeth hurt?)

Here's a link to an article about the function of canine teeth:

https://dogdiscoveries.com/dogs-teeth/

Coincidentally my DH and I had dentist appointments the following day, and our dentist told me that there's a long-standing joke among dentists that the best way to prevent tooth decay and gum disease would be to pull every other tooth out of the human mouth in order to allow for thorough cleaning of all the remaining teeth!

I wanted to ask the forum members if anyone has good ideas for playing with Shama since she can't have chew toys for SEVEN days while her sutures heal? We did some agility training (from my online class, "Building and Maintaining a Start Line (Stay)) yesterday, using soft food to treat, and we also went for a walk at Lowe's (pet friendly store), but we think she's bored as she's used to entertaining herself with her toys and with her bully springs and playing with toys with us.

I also wanted to show you how neatly and discretely they shaved Shama's leg for her IV. I'd been afraid a 2-2-inch patch of her long coat would be gone, but you can't even tell she was shaved. The first three pictures below show her lying on my lap (which is how I position her when I groom her hair, face, chest, and belly). She is standing in the fourth picture (even though I think it looks like she's sitting). She was so thirsty the night after her appointment, but she wasn't allowed to drink or eat until the next day. (The vet tech told us she'd received plenty of fluid through the IV.) When my DH had his head turned, she jumped onto the end table and started drinking out of his glass of milk. Later, when he'd turned on the shower to let the water get hot before going in, she'd walked into the shower to get some water! (BTW, either the antibiotic or the painkiller she's taking is making her need to pee more often than usual. Just a heads up for anyone whose dog will be having a procedure at some point. We didn't notice that when she was spayed . . .)

How is Henry doing now?


----------



## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Two more photos of our little baby. She must have decided she was so bored without her chew toys and hard food that she'd pose for the camera without getting any treat at all!


----------



## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

I am glad everything went well with her dental surgery. I think Molly will probably need her first teeth cleaning soon. I will be interested to see if she is missing teeth also. She has such a small mouth and her teeth are so tiny. She already is missing two adult teeth that were pulled when she was a puppy. Shama is as adorable as ever in those pictures!


----------



## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

Good news on Henry’s dental surgery too! Glad to hear your little cutie is doing so well.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Poor baby Shama! I really think it's either luck of the draw or genetics as much as teeth maintenance when it comes to little dogs losing teeth. Kodi is close to 9, and his teeth still look great, and he has them all. The girls are both young still (Pix will be 3 in late Feb.) and their teeth look good too. But the vet HAS mentioned that Pixel has more tartar build-up than Kodi, even though I brush them all. But she's the smallest, with the smallest mouth too. (even though she has a beautiful bite and no crowding) So I wonder whether that has something to do with it. too.


----------



## dickli (Jun 19, 2012)

My Zoey also had several extractions when her teeth were cleaned for the first time last summer (age 5). She's about 7 lbs. I was told a Great Dane has the same number of teeth as Zoey does, but she has to fit them into a tiny mouth. The reason for extracting the teeth is to protect the surrounding teeth from the same fate. She still has all her canines and is doing fine. They suggested OraVet chews, and I've tried them, but not sure if they could be a choking hazard. They're rather gummy and have something in them that coats the teeth. I've also been using Plaque Off, which could be why she didn't need this done earlier.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

dickli said:


> My Zoey also had several extractions when her teeth were cleaned for the first time last summer (age 5). She's about 7 lbs. I was told a Great Dane has the same number of teeth as Zoey does, but she has to fit them into a tiny mouth. The reason for extracting the teeth is to protect the surrounding teeth from the same fate. She still has all her canines and is doing fine. They suggested OraVet chews, and I've tried them, but not sure if they could be a choking hazard. They're rather gummy and have something in them that coats the teeth. I've also been using Plaque Off, which could be why she didn't need this done earlier.


I would stay away from ANY "dental chews". I found out (to the tune of $1800 when Kodi was younger) that dental chews are one of the leading causes of surgical obstructions in dogs. Veterinary dentists look at dogs only through the lens of oral health. 

Brushing regularly with an enzymatic toothpaste is the BEST thing you can do for oral health in dogs. If you can't brush their teeth (because you haven't trained them to accept it yet), at LEAST get some of the toothpaste into their mouths regularly. Daily if possible. My vet says that getting the toothpaste in there is MUCH better than nothing.


----------



## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> Poor baby Shama! I really think it's either luck of the draw or genetics as much as teeth maintenance when it comes to little dogs losing teeth.


There was no mention of tartar build-up or tooth decay, so I had the impression this was a case of luck of the draw or genetics. (Both of Shama's parents are Grand Champions, however, so I would have thought she'd be safe from bad teeth due to genetics . . .) I just read this article, however, and it says that tarter build-up can push back the gums, exposing the roots and leading to pain/discomfort. Four of her teeth were extracted due to exposed roots. (Of those, two also had bone loss.) So now I'm back to thinking we should do a better job brushing (or at least putting enzymatic toothpaste in her mouth).

DH gives two of these to Shama twice a week. He says she chews them all up before swallowing. (He puts them in the freezer to slow her down.) They're billed as a "highly digestible dental chew with clinically proven, natural herbal ingredients" so hopefully they're not the intestine-blocking variety . . . DH thought they said "enzymatic" somewhere, but they don't actually . . .

https://www.arknaturals.com/product/breath-less-chewable-brushless-toothpaste/

Yesterday and today, Shama ran zoomies in our living room, dining room, and hallway. Really can't wait for her to get her chew toys back, however!


----------



## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

dickli said:


> I've also been using Plaque Off, which could be why she didn't need this done earlier.


 Thanks for your reply. What form of Plaque Off do you use? Our vet recommended water additives that aid in the prevention of tartar and plaque (Aquadent or BreathaLyser). We'll have to look into those . . .


----------



## Henry&Kate (Mar 29, 2017)

Henry is doing fine, thanks for asking. his premolars are now in. Of course now his front teeth are missing! He does need to go back to have his permanent teeth evaluated as the molars start to come in, probably at the end of January. 

Glad Shama is recovering so well. She's still her beautiful self posing for the camera. 

The veterinary dentist said - We've shrunk the dogs but haven't managed to shrink the teeth to the same extent. According to her, in small dogs, a full set of teeth is probably too many teeth for their jaws. Henry is missing a few of adult teeth based on the X-rays and she's not worried about that all. When I was originally researching his condition, I found an article that now I can't remember where, talking about how increasingly dogs of all breeds are missing a few teeth.  There are two particular teeth I think that are very commonly missing. The article said it's an evolutionary change we're witnessing in real time. The author was comparing breed standards - some but not all call for an exact number of teeth and he was advocating that the standard be changed to reflect what's happening and that those missing teeth shouldn't be considered a fault.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ShamaMama said:


> There was no mention of tartar build-up or tooth decay, so I had the impression this was a case of luck of the draw or genetics. (Both of Shama's parents are Grand Champions, however, so I would have thought she'd be safe from bad teeth due to genetics . . .) I just read this article, however, and it says that tarter build-up can push back the gums, exposing the roots and leading to pain/discomfort. Four of her teeth were extracted due to exposed roots. (Of those, two also had bone loss.) So now I'm back to thinking we should do a better job brushing (or at least putting enzymatic toothpaste in her mouth).
> 
> DH gives two of these to Shama twice a week. He says she chews them all up before swallowing. (He puts them in the freezer to slow her down.) They're billed as a "highly digestible dental chew with clinically proven, natural herbal ingredients" so hopefully they're not the intestine-blocking variety . . . DH thought they said "enzymatic" somewhere, but they don't actually . . .
> 
> ...


The vets at Tufts told me that ALL dental chews are dangerous. But I'm sure it does depend on whether the dog chews them thoroughly and consistently or not. I just won't take a chance again, after all the money we spent on the LAST dental chew! LOL!

That said, dental chews do not take the place of brushing, anymore than us crunching on an apple does. It's better than nothing, but not the same as brushing. Same with the carrot chewing. That doesn't replace brushing either.

That said, the fact that her parents were grand champions only says that they had good bites as young dogs. A lot of dogs that are shown with any regularity have finished their grand championship before they start to breed, sometime in their 2 year old year. That would be AWFULLY young to be losing teeth.


----------



## dickli (Jun 19, 2012)

ShamaMama said:


> Thanks for your reply. What form of Plaque Off do you use? Our vet recommended water additives that aid in the prevention of tartar and plaque (Aquadent or BreathaLyser). We'll have to look into those . . .


I use the powder form of Plaqueoff. Here's a link that includes ingredients. There may be some question about the kelp ingredient due to iodine content, so it shouldn't be used in dogs with thyroid problems.

https://www.onlynaturalpet.com/products/ProDen-PlaqueOff-Dental-Powder/232000.aspx

The OraVet chews are pretty spongie, not anything like a hard dental chew. Even so, I would supervise carefully if giving them. They contain an ingredient that provides a barrier so plaque formation is inhibited. On the webpage below, they show that some studies may have been done, but I haven't looked to see if this has been peer reviewed and published.

Dental Hygiene Chews for Dogs | OraVet®

I also brush teeth when I groom, which is about every 3 days, but it just wasn't enough in her case. My other, larger dog has had his teeth cleaned once at age 8, and there were no extractions necessary.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

dickli said:


> I use the powder form of Plaqueoff. Here's a link that includes ingredients. There may be some question about the kelp ingredient due to iodine content, so it shouldn't be used in dogs with thyroid problems.
> 
> https://www.onlynaturalpet.com/products/ProDen-PlaqueOff-Dental-Powder/232000.aspx
> 
> ...


I use Plaque-Off too, and think that' part of the reason Kodi's teeth have been so good. I asked my vet about it, and she agreed that she wouldn't give it to a dog with a known thyroid problem, but she said the amount of iodine is very small, and really isn't a problem for most dogs. She said it was fine for me to give to mine.

The problem is that "supervision doesn't really help when the dog bites a piece off suddenly and swallows it. It's too late, even if you are standing right beside the dog. It isn't the hardness that's the problem, it's that a large piece does not digest in the stomach, and when it passes into the intestines it can get stuck and cause a blockage.

I think most vets recommend daily brushing, or a minimum of 3 times per week. Nothing really replaces brushing... just like with people.


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

As usual , every time Plaque Off / iodine topic comes up, I feel the need to speak out against it. And that is because of the warning against it by Jean Dodds.

old post on this forum ..."On Saturday, I was in a seminar with Jean Dodds, DVM all day. Her topics of discussion were thyroid, vaccines and nutrition. When she was on the topic of thyroid, she specifically mentioned that you should not add any kelp to your dog's diet if you feed a commercial product because commerical products already have Iodine in them and kelp will give them way too much iodine, which will suppress thyroid function. Those who do homecooking and raw (non-commercial) should be fine unless you are already adding iodine in another form. Strangely enough, this was the only specific food supplement that she mentioned to avoid in regard to thyroid function.

https://sonrisashavanese.ca/about-the-breed/health-info/thyroid-health/

hypothyroidism Havanese http://www.thepossiblecanine.com/check-that-thyroid

Interview with Dr. W. Jean Dodds, author of The Canine Thyroid Epidemic - Pet Health Pharmacy

I have asked Jean Dodds specifically re Plaque Off and here was here reply ..."Dear Dave: Hi - Yes, you are absolutely correct ! If the pet is fed homemade or raw, then this issue is less of concern. That dental product is also a problem. See below. Sincerely, Jean"


----------



## flowie (Jul 29, 2017)

So many posts on teeth! (I am a human dentist ) Like ShamaMama, my grand 12 year old cat George had a resorption lesions and had multiple teeth extracted/crown amputated last year. He is doing well now, cross my fingers!

I agree that 42 teeth is an awful lot to cram into a little Havanese jaw. My Teddy has crowded anterior teeth, and his gums are moderately inflamed even with 3-4 x week brushing, he is only one year old. They do look better since I have gotten him. He will definitely be predisposed to teeth problems without vigilant care. Hmm, need to research what else I can do for him.


----------



## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

I still don't really understand resorption, but here's a good article I just found . . .

https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/tooth-resorption-in-dogs

Wanted to share a funny story about taking all of Shama's toys away to prevent her chewing for seven days . . .

She did indeed seem to wonder where all her toys went and why we wouldn't play "killer blanket" (human hand moving under blanket alternatively attacking Shama and getting attacked by Shama) with her. On the fourth or fifth day (New Year's Eve or New Year's Day), DH and I were playing a board game (A Feast for Odin), and I thought maybe Shama would lie down in one of her many beds, one she never uses but which was nearby, if I brought it near us. I was very pleased to see her jump right in it, at first . . . The next thing I knew, she was attacking it, body slamming it, flipping it over, and - horrors! - biting it! So we took that fluffy bed away from her too. She looked at me like, "Mommy? Why?" and I felt so bad.

Here's a link to a video of her taken Thursday night when we finally gave her her toys back. We thought it was interesting that she went right for "Satan Santa" that our niece had just given her for Christmas. (He is a new version of "Devil Dog" which was one of her first toys, also given to her by our niece.)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jrx9z3ohljjovnx/2018 01 04 Shama Gets Her Toys Back.MP4?dl=0

Below is a photo of the fluffy bed (along with SS and DD) and Shama in the fluffy bed (although I could not get her to lie down in it for the photo - she was worn out from (today) going to BOTH the Grand Opening of our new PetSmart - where because we were among the first 50 people and because we brought our dog - only standing outside for 20 minutes in the seven below weather, Shama held by me and under blanket - we were given a coupon for a FREE FULL GROOM and two gift cards AND the puppy playtime at Petco where she's allowed even though she's no longer a puppy).


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

In the video I see that Shama has a toy just like one of Willow's toys. It's the one you can see briefly on the right with all the fabric danglies. It kind of looks like a colorful sting mop. That's one of Willow's favorites! Shama is so cute!


----------



## flowie (Jul 29, 2017)

Wow ,you braved -7 deg weather together to score some sweet freebies!


----------



## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Good to hear Henry's dental surgery went well. I decided to have Scout and Truffles teeth cleaned since I haven't been able to do a good job brushing since my wrist surgery. We're taking Truffles to a dentist for a consultation on Wed. Scout is having his teeth cleaned this month also.


----------



## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

I decided to have Scout and Truffles teeth cleaned a few months ago and have been waiting for their appointments. Unfortunately I haven't been able to brush their teeth daily for the last four months after my wrist fracture. Scout had his teeth cleaned when he was two years old. Yesterday was Scout's cleaning day. He first had an exam and blood work. When the labs came back ok he was given Methadone. After about 20 mins we went with him to the dental room where the vet inserted the IV. He fell asleep and she intubated him and it was time for us to leave. We left the hospital because I had to go to PT and then I get a call from the vet. Scout had a abscess on the last upper molar on each side. 😮 I was so surprised because he never seemed to have any discomfort. He had the two teeth extracted and is now on Clavamox for a week and Metacam for five days. He was pretty drowsy last night and this morning, but ate all his Gerber's beef baby food and soften kibble. 😊 They said that tooth can be a problem because it is behind the large back molar and positioned higher. So glad he had x-rays so it wasn't missed! All his other teeth were perfect and no gum recession. He's feeling ok now and out with Truffles for their afternoon walk. Next week is Truffles turn.


----------



## 1987davids (Aug 31, 2020)

Glad to see your doggo's teeth are well-taken care of by the vet. https:// smiletogo.com.au


----------

