# What's wrong with bone marrow and freeze dried raw?



## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

Many of you know I've done freeze-dried raw, hoping I can consider frozen raw. I contacted another clinic today that had holistic doctors listed. However, when I asked about an appointment with a vet that I could discuss the kids current diet with I was put and hold and then told none of their doctors promote any kind of raw diet. She stated that they wouldn't tell me I couldn't do it but would give me current info on feeding dogs. ???! Uggy buggity.
I gave myself credit and told the receptionist that I had done 6 months of research on dog food, including JIVM (veterinary) articles and abstracts. I've also reviewed all the numerous resources that Mudpuppymama gave me. This is absolutely not a judgement on anyone else, it's just something I enjoy doing and am at a point where we can afford it now that I'm 62. I wasn't expecting the results we got with Cotton since I originally was making the change for Jodie.
Recently, I saw a comment on "Havanese are the Best" stating that it was bad for dogs to have bone marrow. That seemed odd since the homemade beef broth I make is full of it. I asked for clarification as I want to make sure I'm on top of all current information. I haven't received a response. I rarely go to that Facebook page because it's hard to have a back and forth conversation with hundreds of people. Mostly though because I like my peps here!
If I'm out to lunch on this, please feel free to school me. I am a retired teacher after all😋


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## BoosDad (Mar 8, 2020)

As I indicated in previous posts, Boo ate a freeze dried raw diet (Stella and Chewy) for about 8-10 years (starting at age 4/5, when he came into my life). It was recommended by a vet, who also advocated titer testing as opposed to yearly vaccines (revolutionary at the time). Boo tolerated it very well. I’m certain that it has contributed to his overall good health and longevity.

Eventually, when Boo turned 13-14, I did switch to a homemade diet (JustFoodForDogs) because that is what his poodle brother (with kidney disease) was eating. It just became easier to feed them the same, because they were stealing each others food. Also, Boos vet thought it might be easier for him to digest because of his age.








I don’t have any experience feeding marrow. So, I am unable to comment about it. However, at least for Boo, many years of raw feeding did not have any deleterious effects.

PS
I realize that a raw diet may not be right for every dog. However, I think it is backward thinking for a vet, in this day and age, to ignore the proven beneficial effects of a raw diet.


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

BoosDad said:


> As I indicated in previous posts, Boo ate a freeze dried raw diet (Stella and Chewy) for about 8-10 years (starting at age 4/5, when he came into my life). It was recommended by a vet, who also advocated titer testing as opposed to yearly vaccines (revolutionary at the time). Boo tolerated it very well. I’m certain that it has contributed to his overall good health and longevity.
> 
> Eventually, when Boo turned 13-14, I did switch to a homemade diet (JustFoodForDogs) because that is what his poodle brother (with kidney disease) was eating. It just became easier to feed them the same, because they were stealing each others food. Also, Boos vet thought it might be easier for him to digest because of his age.
> View attachment 176271
> ...


Thank you BoosDad! I forgot about Boo's freeze dried diet. I was thinking about JustFoodForDogs because that was what I wanted to switch JoJo to but my vet's office rejected that also. JFFD was wonderful though, they kept reaching out to my vet's office. Eventually, the vet approved it-5 days after JoJo passed.
Sooo, I have become a bit passionate about their current diet. Cotton is a new dog! Jodie's skin cleared up as well and we have had the benefit of Cotton now acting like he did when he was 5 years old-and now he's eleven. He jumps and runs with Jodie like an adolescent and chases balls around the house too. He moves faster, hides and pouches on Jodie and loves his food. Oh my gosh he loves to eat! He was semi-okay with his kibble but if I changed flavors it would take about a week for him to eat full meals. Not anymore. He's deliriously ecstatic at every meal and with each snack. He darts in circles and talks and scarfs it down. New flavor? No problem! Freeze dried raw fish treats, bison liver whatever, my picky eater is nowhere to be found!
Thanks for the reminder and I love Boo's picture, he is so cute💖 Or handsome, that sounds a little more manly 😋


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

JaJa said:


> Many of you know I've done freeze-dried raw, hoping I can consider frozen raw. I contacted another clinic today that had holistic doctors listed. However, when I asked about an appointment with a vet that I could discuss the kids current diet with I was put and hold and then told none of their doctors promote any kind of raw diet. She stated that they wouldn't tell me I couldn't do it but would give me current info on feeding dogs. ???! Uggy buggity.
> I gave myself credit and told the receptionist that I had done 6 months of research on dog food, including JIVM (veterinary) articles and abstracts. I've also reviewed all the numerous resources that Mudpuppymama gave me. This is absolutely not a judgement on anyone else, it's just something I enjoy doing and am at a point where we can afford it now that I'm 62. I wasn't expecting the results we got with Cotton since I originally was making the change for Jodie.
> Recently, I saw a comment on "Havanese are the Best" stating that it was bad for dogs to have bone marrow. That seemed odd since the homemade beef broth I make is full of it. I asked for clarification as I want to make sure I'm on top of all current information. I haven't received a response. I rarely go to that Facebook page because it's hard to have a back and forth conversation with hundreds of people. Mostly though because I like my peps here!
> If I'm out to lunch on this, please feel free to school me. I am a retired teacher after all😋


JaJa, when you mentioned marrow to the vet they may have been thinking you meant beef marrow bones. These are tooth breakers and extremely high in fat. If a dog is consuming bones like rabbit or chicken, they are getting a much smaller amount of marrow and also getting lots of nutrients from the bones. Marrow is good but like everything good, too much is not good. A small dog eating the marrow out of a beef marrow bone is getting way too much fat and not getting any nutrients from the bone. Bone broth is good as long as it is not too fatty. If you use lots of chicken skin for your broth it will have lots of fat but that is easy to skim off.

Marrow Bones for Dogs: Everything You Need to Know


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

mudpuppymama said:


> JaJa, when you mentioned marrow to the vet they may have been thinking you meant beef marrow bones. These are tooth breakers and extremely high in fat. If a dog is consuming bones like rabbit or chicken, they are getting a much smaller amount of marrow and also getting lots of nutrients from the bones. Marrow is good but like everything good, too much is not good. A small dog eating the marrow out of a beef marrow bone is getting way too much fat and not getting any nutrients from the bone. Bone broth is good as long as it is not too fatty. If you use lots of chicken skin for your broth it will have lots of fat but that is easy to skim off.
> 
> Marrow Bones for Dogs: Everything You Need to Know


Thank you Mudpuppymama,
I never got the chance to mention beef marrow to the vet. Her assistant shut me down after I said freeze dried raw. I don't feed them the bones independently. I think you were the one who initially told me not to just let them go off and chew on their bones. 
Here’s my current process. When I make broth I save a few of the small bones which are already cut into 1 inch pieces. After I remove the marrow I'll let Jodie pull off the little bits on the outside while I hold the bone. She pulls for 30-60 seconds and then she and Cotton get their tiny nibs which I cut into about 8 mm. Then I squish it with my fingers and they each get half. They get tastes of the broth after I remove the fat. I also put a handful of chicken feet in the broth so it gels and I add organic apple cider vinegar that is raw, unfiltered and unpasteurized with the Mother.
The only bones they get are freeze dried Chicken/duck bones that I grind with our meat grinder and they get about half a teaspoon 2-3 times a week. This, as well as all their snacks, are included in their nutritional profile. When I was first devising recipes I got Ed’s scientific calculator from a closet. Yes, I'm a hopeless nerd.
Thank for the article, I finally had a break this morning to read through it. I think I've read it before but definitely needed to read it again. I’ve got to get all my research notes from Google docs organized. Thank you again! I guess I need to stop worrying if someone else questions me. This forum has always been my main source of info and links for further reading.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

JaJa said:


> Thank you Mudpuppymama,
> I never got the chance to mention beef marrow to the vet. Her assistant shut me down after I said freeze dried raw. I don't feed them the bones independently. I think you were the one who initially told me not to just let them go off and chew on their bones.
> Here’s my current process. When I make broth I save a few of the small bones which are already cut into 1 inch pieces. After I remove the marrow I'll let Jodie pull off the little bits on the outside while I hold the bone. She pulls for 30-60 seconds and then she and Cotton get their tiny nibs which I cut into about 8 mm. Then I squish it with my fingers and they each get half. They get tastes of the broth after I remove the fat. I also put a handful of chicken feet in the broth so it gels and I add organic apple cider vinegar that is raw, unfiltered and unpasteurized with the Mother.
> The only bones they get are freeze dried Chicken/duck bones that I grind with our meat grinder and they get about half a teaspoon 2-3 times a week. This, as well as all their snacks, are included in their nutritional profile. When I was first devising recipes I got Ed’s scientific calculator from a closet. Yes, I'm a hopeless nerd.
> Thank for the article, I finally had a break this morning to read through it. I think I've read it before but definitely needed to read it again. I’ve got to get all my research notes from Google docs organized. Thank you again! I guess I need to stop worrying if someone else questions me. This forum has always been my main source of info and links for further reading.


If the vet shut you down at just mentioning freeze dried raw, this is not a vet I would seek out for nutritional advice. I have never had a vet I would trust for nutritional advice, even though some were very good vets. I would seek out a nutritionist or animal naturopath if you want to discuss diet. There are many ways to feed raw or add some raw to their diet. Bone broth is supposed to be very nutritional for people and dogs.


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## BoosDad (Mar 8, 2020)

mudpuppymama said:


> If the vet shut you down at just mentioning freeze dried raw, this is not a vet I would seek out for nutritional advice. I have never had a vet I would trust for nutritional advice, even though some were very good vets. I would seek out a nutritionist or animal naturopath if you want to discuss diet. There are many ways to feed raw or add some raw to their diet. Bone broth is supposed to be very nutritional for people and dogs.


I concur. From my experience, very few vets seem to have been adequately schooled to discuss pet nutritional needs with pet parents.


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

Thank you guys, it does help to have your support. The vet had retired early and a new person took over shortly before Covid 19. The office supervisor has known us for 22 years and knows first hand how well we take care of our pets and even a couple pets of our son's friends. I've been dismayed that she wouldn't apt least give me a chance.
I've started research to find someone in Portland (OR) as there just isn't much in Vancouver. Although, it's odd that the most recent place I contacted was listed as holistic but doesn't support any kind of raw diet. I trust my research abilities and your feedback and suggestions. I think it's better to search now than wait until there's a problem. Cotton still needs a blood test to check and see if he still has low total protein. He should be fine now but I want to make sure.
Thanks for your support!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

JaJa said:


> Thank you guys, it does help to have your support. The vet had retired early and a new person took over shortly before Covid 19. The office supervisor has known us for 22 years and knows first hand how well we take care of our pets and even a couple pets of our son's friends. I've been dismayed that she wouldn't apt least give me a chance.
> I've started research to find someone in Portland (OR) as there just isn't much in Vancouver. Although, it's odd that the most recent place I contacted was listed as holistic but doesn't support any kind of raw diet. I trust my research abilities and your feedback and suggestions. I think it's better to search now than wait until there's a problem. Cotton still needs a blood test to check and see if he still has low total protein. He should be fine now but I want to make sure.
> Thanks for your support!


I would be curious why a vet would be against an entire category of food without some valid reasons. I would be curious as to the reasons. I can see why they do not want people feeding unbalanced diets to their pets but nowadays there are lots of raw and freeze dried options that are supposedly balanced. I think the term “holistic vet” can mean many different things. A good open minded conventional vet is sometimes better IMO. It comes down to the individual vet. Looking specifically for a holistic vet could be limiting. I just moved from a big city where there was only one holistic vet. I switched to a different conventional vet and actually liked her better. Where I live now there is a holistic vet that I am considering who sounds good on paper. However, time will tell.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> I would be curious why a vet would be against an entire category of food without some valid reasons. I would be curious as to the reasons. I can see why they do not want people feeding unbalanced diets to their pets but nowadays there are lots of raw and freeze dried options that are supposedly balanced. I think the term “holistic vet” can mean many different things. A good open minded conventional vet is sometimes better IMO. It comes down to the individual vet. Looking specifically for a holistic vet could be limiting. I just moved from a big city where there was only one holistic vet. I switched to a different conventional vet and actually liked her better. Where I live now there is a holistic vet that I am considering who sounds good on paper. However, time will tell.


In our area, there is only ONE vet who bills herself as a "holistic" vet, and she is a whack job! Traditional vets in the area are constantly cleaning up her messes. (I know this because I have several friends among them) We have ONE practice, the one I go to the actually bills itself as an "integrative" practice, and offers an array of services beyond traditional medicine. They both service their own full-time clientele, and also work on a referral basis for their other services from other area vets for chiro, acupuncture, and rehab medicine. Many people who don't want to travel so far for routine care, like this option.

I think that a lot of the non-corporate vets in our area are willing to work with clients within their desires for how they want to care for their pets. But forget it if you want to stick with one of the practices that have been bought up by Banfield or one of the other big corporations. The vets there don't have any options, no matter WHAT they think personally. They have to tow the corporate line or move on.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> In our area, there is only ONE vet who bills herself as a "holistic" vet, and she is a whack job! Traditional vets in the area are constantly cleaning up her messes. (I know this because I have several friends among them) We have ONE practice, the one I go to the actually bills itself as an "integrative" practice, and offers an array of services beyond traditional medicine. They both service their own full-time clientele, and also work on a referral basis for their other services from other area vets for chiro, acupuncture, and rehab medicine. Many people who don't want to travel so far for routine care, like this option.
> 
> I think that a lot of the non-corporate vets in our area are willing to work with clients within their desires for how they want to care for their pets. But forget it if you want to stick with one of the practices that have been bought up by Banfield or one of the other big corporations. The vets there don't have any options, no matter WHAT they think personally. They have to tow the corporate line or move on.


When it comes to vets, labels mean nothing to me…conventional, holistic, homeopathic, allopathic, integrative. I am sure there are good and bad in each category. The key thing for me is that they are willing to work with me on how I want to raise my animals. I also like to see them try to get to root cause and explore alternatives before getting out the symptom suppressing drugs. However, whether drugs, herbs or homeopathic remedies, they all can be misused. I also think animal naturopaths have their place. They are definitely not a replacement for a vet but can be useful for some things. My yorkie suffered with a shoulder problem for years and no vet ever mentioned to me that his harness could be the issue. However, that was the first thing the animal naturopath suspected. And she was right. Since switching to the Blue 9 harness, his shoulder problem was cured.

I think it would be almost impossible to find a good vet who is also an expert on nutrition. I do not look for vets for any nutritional advice. However, I do like them to be supportive of raw feeding as an option. If not, there is a risk that they will blame problems on the raw diet and possibly miss root cause.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

mudpuppymama said:


> ... However, I do like them to be supportive of raw feeding as an option. If not, there is a risk that they will blame problems on the raw diet and possibly miss root cause.


Very good point - reminds me of a House episode years ago - the patient was a morbidly obese man who, at one point, decides to leave the hospital and says to the drs - "until you stop trying to blame everything on me being fat and start looking for the root cause there's no point in me being here" - sometimes medical (dog or human) professionals can get so fixated on what they think is the cause (because it might cause some things) that they stop looking for a cause in the same way they would for a dog/ person who didn't have that one thing.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Tucker did best on commercial raw diets, in increasingly novel proteins as the years went on, (because of IBD, different topic.) But, he did very well on commercial frozen raw for about 10 years. Then I changed him to freeze dried options from those same commercial brands. He did very well on those for another 3 years, when I finally had to go to cann prescription diet for him because of his IBD. I am very much in favor of the raw or home cooked diets (if guided by a canine nutritionist,) if at all possible. 

(I am not impressed with the 2 Holistic doctors I came into contact with.)


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