# any reference good or bad



## mama40 (Jul 8, 2009)

can any one offer any info about Boley's Babies in Missouri?


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## marb42 (Oct 19, 2008)

I have never heard of them. If you are able to visit them, that is the best thing. I went to their site, and it's hard to tell how large of a breeding production this is and whether these puppies and parents are locked up in kennels or treated like part of the family. I made the mistake of buying a Havanese from a very similar site in Missouri that claimed to be a family owned business. The web site in no way told the true picture, and I couldn't find anything good or bad about the breeder on the internet. I had my puppy shipped by airplane and never saw the place. After I had a lot of problems with this puppy (extremely nervous, jittery, severe separation anxiety, inability to socialize with other dogs and so on), I dug harder and found out that this place had over 100 dogs on site in a separate building. These dogs were not raised in the home or given love and socialization, as the breeder claimed. So, if you can't visit this place, I would not buy from this breeder. There are many wonderful breeders you can learn about by reading posts on this forum, and there are many rescue dogs on petfinder and through the Havanese Rescue as well. Best of luck!
Gina


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Comes from a puppy mill

http://aphisweb.aphis.usda.gov/anim.../A - BREEDER/MO/TATLANA BOLEY - 43-A-5392.pdf


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

How can all of those findings result in a final evaluation of no noncompliances???? One cage is too small for the *3* dogs in it!!!


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

Amanda, how can you tell that it is a puppy mill? Do only puppy mills have to get the Agricultural Inspection Report? Do legitimate small breeders not have to have them?


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## mama40 (Jul 8, 2009)

thanks everyone. i am now afraid enough to only buy from someone i can visit personally! Also - how do you access the inspection reports like the one from Boley's?


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## dbeech (Jun 16, 2009)

You can tell by the price that the breeder is not reputable. You can't buy a Havanese for $300.


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## murphymoesmamma (Apr 1, 2009)

I opened the report and started to read and I am so sick to my stomach. What in the world is wrong with people? Three dogs to one pen so tight that they could not asssume a normal position and all that needs to be done is to remedy the situation. The remedy would be to close that place down and rescue the dogs and or puppies that are there. When I think of how everyone in this forum loves their furbabies it just churns my stomach knowing that there are dogs being used as breeding machines with no care given to their comfort, health, or well being. How sad that these places are allowed to continue operation.


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## marb42 (Oct 19, 2008)

ama0722 said:


> Comes from a puppy mill
> 
> http://aphisweb.aphis.usda.gov/anim.../A - BREEDER/MO/TATLANA BOLEY - 43-A-5392.pdf


Dang, Amanda, how did you find that????

mama40, I'm so glad that you aren't buying from them and that Amanda found that report. It's amazing how deceptive their site is compared to the report Amanda found.
Gina


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I generally will search by phone number fyi. If not check by state. There are several websites. I think the commercial breeders are the only ones. I think it varies by state how many dogs a breeder/mill must have in order to get a license. I don't know that but I did the same thing for my in laws when they looked at dog off puppy find. The findings were even more negative (imagine that) and it came with a video. There are also sites to find auctions, etc.

Good for you for educating yourself. I think it is a great idea to visit the breeder in person but warning, a lot of brokers do that too.


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## mintchip (Apr 19, 2007)

ama0722 said:


> I generally will search by phone number fyi. If not check by state. There are several websites. I think the commercial breeders are the only ones. I think it varies by state how many dogs a breeder/mill must have in order to get a license. I don't know that but I did the same thing for my in laws when they looked at dog off puppy find. The findings were even more negative (imagine that) and it came with a video. There are also sites to find auctions, etc.
> 
> Good for you for educating yourself. I think it is a great idea to visit the breeder in person but warning, a lot of brokers do that too.


I wish more people would do research before buying!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Anyone feel free to copy the bottom line in my signature onto yours.


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## murphymoesmamma (Apr 1, 2009)

I feel so blessed to have gotten my Murphy from a wonderful lady who became my friend. I visited Murphy when he was 4 weeks old with Debbie ( Jammie's mom ). You could tell that Donna loves her dogs and loves the puppies. They were so well socialized. Thank you to all the wonderful breeders out there who give their dogs and pups a wonderful start in life.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

dbeech said:


> You can tell by the price that the breeder is not reputable. You can't buy a Havanese for $300.


When I was researching breeders not that long ago. (Kodi is only 18 weeks old!<g>) prices from reputable breeders ran $1,800 - $2,500. I think this is the ballpark for most well bred, pure bred dogs.

Another red flag on the site was that the dogs are not AKC registered... I can't remember the registry they are using, but it's not a "real" one.

Last, one of the things I noticed on many of the sites I looked at during my search that seemed questionable... either as puppy mills or brokers... is the use of "stage settings" for all their puppy photos. They have one "cute" set-up, and cycle the pups through it one at a time. Of course, a reputable breeder could also take photos that way, but it did seem to me to be a "trick" to suck unsuspecting buyer in with cute puppy pictures. I preferred seeing photos (or videos) of the puppies playing in the living room.<g>


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## Janizona (Oct 17, 2006)

I have to disagree with you Tom. Not everyone can visit every breeder they interview! I have sold many many pups to folks that never visited my home. I always recommend checking references from other breeders and puppy owners, contacting the breeders vet and just plain ol' google info. Its difficult for those trying to find a good breeder but places like this forum are invaluable!


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## mama40 (Jul 8, 2009)

*visit or ship?*

but, if someone doesn't come visit the home, how do they get the puppy if the breeder doesn't allow shipping?
And re shipping - this seems to be something breeders cannot agree on as a whole - I've heard the latest Pet shipping is state of the art. There have been a couple of pups I've been very interested in, but eliminated due to the requirement of flying or driving 12+ hrs - like to Tom King  
Yes/No?


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

I guess my question would be this: you won't fly out to pick up your puppy yourself so it can fly home with you in the cabin , but you would ship a tiny puppy all by it'self in the cargo area of a plane? 
I would think that if you found a breeder that you are very comfortable with, that you wouldn't mind taking the extra percaution to fly out and visit that breeders home, see the parents and where the puppy was raised, and then fly home with the puppy at your feet- seems like a small price to pay to ease your mind that you are satisfied with the breeder and the puppy.
Edited to add: I am going to guess that you would'nt be very impressed seeing the living conditions that a $300 Havanese is raised in-


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Thank you for that report, Amanda! It is most definitely a commercial breeder and those 12 dogs probably never get to feel grass or stone under their splayed feet (to try to stand on wire for months/years at a time). It isn't a severe case by far, but still enough that those dogs are suffering and need care. Makes me want to strangle those people! 

As much as I agree that visiting a breeder is SO very important, I also don't think it's essential if you know a lot of people (whom are knowledgeable and you trust) that can vouch for a breeder that may live too far from you. I would never want to have a puppy shipped alone - that's just me - but I could see myself flying somewhere to pick one up. There needs to be good communication between you and the breeder, mama40, trust and even friendship. I only wish I had a better relationship with Ricky's breeder as it would mean the world to me now.


Good luck and pls. ask any question you may have! You want to be sure about your future furbaby.


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## Janizona (Oct 17, 2006)

mama40 said:


> but, if someone doesn't come visit the home, how do they get the puppy if the breeder doesn't allow shipping?
> And re shipping - this seems to be something breeders cannot agree on as a whole - I've heard the latest Pet shipping is state of the art. There have been a couple of pups I've been very interested in, but eliminated due to the requirement of flying or driving 12+ hrs - like to Tom King
> Yes/No?


Sorry! My comment was that a buyer can't visit every prospective breeder. I didn't mean the one that they choose to buy from!! I agree with that part, you should ALWAYS pick up your puppy in person and "run like a Havanese" if the conditions are not what you were told. And on the breeders side, I won't ship my puppy to someone that I have not met either.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Janizona said:


> I have to disagree with you Tom. Not everyone can visit every breeder they interview! I have sold many many pups to folks that never visited my home. I always recommend checking references from other breeders and puppy owners, contacting the breeders vet and just plain ol' google info. Its difficult for those trying to find a good breeder but places like this forum are invaluable!


I'm sure that there are people who are lucky enough to get good dogs from good breeders who ship (and, IMO, those breeders are also "lucky" to find good homes for their puppies that way) But in the best of all worlds, I agree with Tom... there is nothing like a face-to-face meeting, and a chance to see not only the puppy, but the whole breeding establishment and household. I learned SO much from Pam and Tom in the time I spent with them that would have been much harder to learn any other way. We also established a bond that I think is hard (not impossible, but hard) to establish without that face-to-face time.

I guess it also depends on what you want out of a dog... if you "just" want a pet,(and I'm not saying that in a negative sense at all - as far as I'm concerned, a primary job of any dog living within a family should be as a pet) and are willing to deal with some start-up problems and/or health issues, even a puppy mill rescue can fill the bill very nicely... as evidenced by all the great rescue pups owned by people on this forum.

I wanted a dog with specific abilities and temperament. Even before I had narrowed in on a breed, my trainer/friend had told me that to get a top quality dog, and not only a top quality dog, but also THE dog that was right for me, I had to be willing to travel to breeders *AND BE WILLING TO WALK AWAY*, *NO MATTER HOW "CUTE" THE PUPPIES WERE.*

I reminded myself that all the way down to NC.<g> And I WOULD have walked away if I hadn't felt 100% comfortable and confident that I'd found the right puppy for me. I feel quite certain that the Kings would have turned me away without a puppy if they hadn't had the same level of confidence. As it was, I left with a different puppy than I went down expecting to take home. The other puppy was just as nice a dog (my trainer was blown away by the quality of the whole litter); for someone else, he was probably the BEST choice. But Kodi spoke to me in a way that couldn't be denied.<g>

Yes, the puppy ended up costing me more money than if I'd bought him over the internet/phone and had him shipped (which the Kings will not do, BTW)... The cost of the puppy himself, plus plane fare for both myself and my trainer/friend plus a rental car, and the added cost to take Kodi back home under the seat in the passenger compartment. But it was worth every penny. This is a long-term investment.

For those who decide to take a chance on buying a puppy without visiting the breeder first, I think you need to be ESPECIALLY careful that you check INDEPENDENT references, (like people on this forum... not just calling references given you by the breeder), that you check for yourself that all health testing has been done, and ask for soaped photos of the puppy and either x-rays or soaped photos of the parents. And that you recognize that even dealing in all good faith, the breeder can't know FOR SURE that a particular puppy will be the right match for you, unless you go there to meet the puppy.

I am not only new to Havanese, but to dogs in general. However, I have a life-time of experience buying and selling horses, both privately and professionally. I guess this kind of "due diligence" comes easy to me because of that background. The number of zeros in the price tag might be bigger for horses, but in both cases, we are (or should be) making a long-term commitment to an animal partner. We should take that very seriously.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mama40 said:


> but, if someone doesn't come visit the home, how do they get the puppy if the breeder doesn't allow shipping?
> And re shipping - this seems to be something breeders cannot agree on as a whole - I've heard the latest Pet shipping is state of the art. There have been a couple of pups I've been very interested in, but eliminated due to the requirement of flying or driving 12+ hrs - like to Tom King
> Yes/No?


Even if the shipping conditions in the hold of an airplane had standards high enough to be reliably safe for shipping, there are instances of dogs sitting on the tarmac, without water, in very hot or very cold weather for long periods of time. You have no idea the quality of the people who will be handling your puppy, who is already being slightly traumatized by leaving his mom and litter mates for the first time. When I brought Kodi home with me, he already knew me a little from the time I had spent with him at the King's He stayed right with me through the entire flight, sleeping comfortably under the seat by my feet. He did not have to be checked in early as "baggage", nor did we need to wait for him to be unloaded from cargo.

For me, flying was the right answer when I picked Kodi up. However, if that had not been an option, I would have driven all the way from Mass to NC before I would have put him in cargo.

One thing that surprises me is that people are all up in arms about cage dryers for adult dogs, but would put a tiny 8-12 week old puppy in cargo.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Janizona said:


> Sorry! My comment was that a buyer can't visit every prospective breeder. I didn't mean the one that they choose to buy from!! I agree with that part, you should ALWAYS pick up your puppy in person and "run like a Havanese" if the conditions are not what you were told. And on the breeders side, I won't ship my puppy to someone that I have not met either.


I guess I should have read further down the thread before posting... looks like we are on the same page!<g>


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## murphymoesmamma (Apr 1, 2009)

My daughter and I drove to Pittsburgh (a 4 hour drive) to visit with Murphy once. I would have loved to visit more but I cannot stay awake in the car on long trips so driving by myself was out. Murphy's breeder was awesome and is my friend to this day. Debbie (Jammies mom) and her husband drove halfway to meet DH and me when Murphy was old enough for us to get him. I knew that I wouldn't ever entrust my little bundle to the airlines if I had a longer trip than that. They left passengers out on the hot tarmac for hours the other day imagine how it would be for a poor little puppy in the cargo area. I want another puppy soon and I wouldn't trust buying from a breeder who didn't want to personally meet me.


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