# Eating Issues



## tylerplari (Mar 27, 2013)

Our 5 month Hav, Cassie, goes through periods of refusing to eat her food. From the time we brought her home at 9 weeks, she's always been a picky eater. She NEVER ate 3 meals a day, two at most. I've always fed dry & I started mixing a little wet food to encourage her to eat. in the beginning I was trying several different wet foods, and I also tried changing her dry food once. It was exhausting trying to keep her eating. 
For the past 2 months we have been feeding her Wellness Just for Puppy Small Breed dry, and I also top it with the Wellness Just for Puppy wet. I haven't deviated from this combo as she ate it ok. I feed about 1/4 cup per meal & her weight was about 6 pounds at her last vet visit at 17 weeks. Vet said she was doing great & didn't seem concerned with her lack of interest in eating.
For the past few days her appetite has dropped again. She will sit in her crate and refuse to touch her food. We even had to remove all bedding and toys because she'll cover her dish with the bedding or toys. Sometimes she will eat a meal (but hours after her normal meal time).
Her activity level is normal. She attended her puppy class today and ate the "high value" treat of hot dog with enthusiasm. Her trainer prefers to use that type of treats with the puppies because they get so distracted with each other and don't focus on the commands otherwise. We rarely give her that type of treats at home because we want her to eat her normal food. 

Has anyone else have similar experiences with their dogs? Someone else at puppy class said that she might be teething. But since she's never been very interested in her regular meals I am skeptical to think that's the problem. She has no problems with any type of treats but I can't feed her treats instead of her puppy food. 

Any advice or sharing from others who have had similar problems would be greatly appreciated! 

Michele


----------



## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Cuba is four and a half months old now; she too can skip meals happily. I have a 6 year old Coton de Tulear, Tycho, who can go for two days with no food and have, apparently, no dire consequences. I worry more with a puppy because they have so little weight anyway. When I got my first Coton the breeder free-fed her dogs (left food down all the time) and advised me to do the same. Which I did, for years. Now I don't any more. There is disagreement about free feeding, and my Havanese breeder strongly goes with the opposing school of thought, which is to leave the food down for 20 minutes and take it away again if it hasn't been eaten. That's what I now do, partly because I don't want my dogs (I have the two) eating each other's food, partly because I think it is a better habit for Cuba to get into. She will ignore her food sometimes, but usually eats at the following meal, although not always. I used to try different foods, and fuss that my dogs just didn't like the particular brand or content, but dogs don't have the same senses of taste that we do, apparently, and we are anthropomorphising them if we think they need similar variety. They need good nutrition, and as long as we feed them the right mix of protein, vitamins, etc. they will eventually get used to eating to survive and flourish. It's possible that the constant chopping and changing, that I certainly was prone to, simply holds them back, waiting to see what's next on offer. I personally am of the 'dogs don't need wheat, do need high protein' school of thought; I don't think humans should be eating most grains either - but that's a whole new topic, and too long to go into here (and probably too annoying for some!) Cuba does get treats (I use chicken breast cut into rice-grain-sized bits, or liver fudge) when we are doing training, and sometimes that seems to be enough for her. I try not to worry too much. If she went for longer than 24 hours I'd probably ring the breeder or the vet and check, but as long as she is drinking and peeing properly I don't worry unduly. I'd worry if she suddenly became unusually lethargic, or vomited, or had diarrhoea, but not if she was her usual, energetic self.


----------



## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

My Leo is a streaky eater but seems healthy, active and is growing so I don't worry about it. My other dogs eat twice a day morning and evening. Even when they eat Leo doesn't. He seems to prefer food around 7:00-8:00 pm. Though food is offered at breakfast and lunch he very rarely eats until the evening when he will eat 3/4 -1 cup of Fromm Grain-Free kibble. He always has water available and we do some food based training but Leo also responds well to verbal praise so I don't always use food during training. It doesn't seem to impact his eating nor does it seem to impact his growth. He weighed 9.4 lbs last week when I weighed him and he will be 6 months old next Monday. August 12th. His breeder told me that Havanese can be picky eaters and not to engage in the practice of always trying to add a bit of this or that to get them to eat. She said to find a food that I felt was good and that agreed with his digestive system and then to stay with it. I do add a bit of yogurt, egg, canned pumpkin sometimes though Leo doesn't really seem to like those things. The teacher in my training class tried a long spoon with peanut butter on the end as a method for beginning "heel" teaching and Leo took a sniff and wouldn't touch it. Ha! There are days when Leo doesn't eat very much at all and then days he seems hungrier. I offer food 3 times per day for a few minutes at a time but he rarely eats until the evening.


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I like Sabines approach. 
"Sadly this is something I hear about a *lot* in small dogs.

IMO, in most cases it's behavioral, and yes - the owners tend to make it worse. Especially when they start trying to tempt the dogs into eating by switching from one food to the next and to the next, and adding tasty tidbits, and even hand-feeding and begging the dog to eat. Essentially they are teaching the dog the fussy behavior, and to hold out until something comes along that strikes their fancy on that particular day.

And not only that - as people get more anxious about their dogs not eating, there's more and more negative energy and emotion that the dogs pick up on, making everything worse.

In a nutshell, people need to train their dogs to eat properly like they would train anything else (loose leash walking, tricks etc.), and try to not hover over them with all their anxiety while they eat. No feeding treats or snacks outside of mealtimes until the dog knows to eat regular meals, possibly a new plate/bowl that the dog hasn't associated with the whole process yet, maybe also a new location for feeding, preferably somewhere where the dog doesn't get distracted.

Small portion size, put down for 5 minutes, taken away after time is up, no matter how much the dog has eaten. If he/she ate some, cut the next portion by as much as was left, until you arrive at an amount that the dog *will* eat in one sitting. I know many popular sources say give the dog 15 minutes, but if you actually look at a clock while a dog is eating, you'll realize that is an awfully long time. The average dog eating out of a bowl will finish in 2-3 minutes."

Sabine


----------



## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

thank you Dave for the above post. This is the exact advice I needed.


----------



## tylerplari (Mar 27, 2013)

Thank you everyone for your words of wisdom. Your advice has eased my concerns.

There definitely is a lot of hovering and anxiety with both my husband and I regarding her lack of appetite. I've even hand-fed her a few times. I'll be printing out this post & sharing it with my husband.


----------



## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

When Emmie stopped eating, it was accompanied by lethargy and other behavior changes, which meant it wasn't her being picky; instead, she was sick for awhile. (But now thankfully she's fine.) So if Cassie is full of energy and acting like her normal self than Sabine's suggestions should help. Good luck!


----------



## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> I like Sabines approach....
> 
> Small portion size, put down for 5 minutes, taken away after time is up, no matter how much the dog has eaten. If he/she ate some, cut the next portion by as much as was left, until you arrive at an amount that the dog *will* eat in one sitting. I know many popular sources say give the dog 15 minutes, but if you actually look at a clock while a dog is eating, you'll realize that is an awfully long time. The average dog eating out of a bowl will finish in 2-3 minutes."
> 
> Sabine


I think, on reflection, you are right, DaveT (or rather, Sabine, whom you helpfully quote, is right); 15 minutes IS a very long time. I guess if you had a dog that habitually bolted its food you wouldn't want to compound the speed at which it ate by removing food too quickly, but for the purposes of training a picky eater it is probably sensible not to leave food down for longer than 5 minutes or so.

Cuba sometimes eats more enthusiastically if I stuff her food into a Kong and let her work for her meal.


----------



## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

The other thing that is difficult is the business of training treats. You need to use high-value treats in order to train effectively, and would make the treat-allowance part of the overall diet allowance so as not to over-feed. BUT, the high-value of the treats makes them, by definition, more interesting than normal feed. So although you are associating this 'special' food with working for it, and with learning new things, you are nevertheless teaching the puppy that there is nicer food out there. Scheduling training to co-incide with meal times - I usually spend five or ten minutes before meals when Cuba is hungry enough to want to work for the treats - or randomly during the day is still telling the puppy that there are times when more delicious things are on offer and that skipping less interesting meals might not be a disaster. Or is this just being over-analytic?!


----------



## tylerplari (Mar 27, 2013)

*Update for eating issues*



tylerplari said:


> Our 5 month Hav, Cassie, goes through periods of refusing to eat her food. From the time we brought her home at 9 weeks, she's always been a picky eater. She NEVER ate 3 meals a day, two at most. I've always fed dry & I started mixing a little wet food to encourage her to eat. in the beginning I was trying several different wet foods, and I also tried changing her dry food once. It was exhausting trying to keep her eating.
> For the past 2 months we have been feeding her Wellness Just for Puppy Small Breed dry, and I also top it with the Wellness Just for Puppy wet. I haven't deviated from this combo as she ate it ok. I feed about 1/4 cup per meal & her weight was about 6 pounds at her last vet visit at 17 weeks. Vet said she was doing great & didn't seem concerned with her lack of interest in eating.
> For the past few days her appetite has dropped again. She will sit in her crate and refuse to touch her food. We even had to remove all bedding and toys because she'll cover her dish with the bedding or toys. Sometimes she will eat a meal (but hours after her normal meal time).
> Her activity level is normal. She attended her puppy class today and ate the "high value" treat of hot dog with enthusiasm. Her trainer prefers to use that type of treats with the puppies because they get so distracted with each other and don't focus on the commands otherwise. We rarely give her that type of treats at home because we want her to eat her normal food.
> ...


We have found a food that Cassie will eat consistently (well at least for 6 days in a row which is a record for her). It is the rolled dog food made by Freshpet, the "Vital" line. 
While I am happy that she finally is eating consistently this new food poses a couple of new issues. First, I have to purchase the food from Petco which is an inconvenience as there isn't a Petco close to my home. Second, this food is very expensive. I estimate that I'll be spending $50/mo. 
I do know some will advocate cooking food which I really, really do not want to do. Her trainer recommended home cooked meals but I hate to cook even for my own family. She even said "it's not that bad, just cook once a week, etc.". 
I was wondering if anyone with picky eaters have tried dehydrated food? If so, which line? I don't mind adding cooked meat & oil to the dehydrated food. I just don't want to do the whole meal from scratch.

I've been looking at the "Honest Kitchen" brand.

Thank you again for all the advice!

Michele


----------



## My2Havs (Jun 5, 2009)

[I've been looking at the "Honest Kitchen" brand.
Thank you again for all the advice!
Michele]
_______
You can't go wrong with Honest Kitchen. It's all human grade, made in USA and they have excellent customer service. They have "complete" formulas with the meat in it already but I like to add my own so I usually use the Preference formula. Even if you use the complete formulas, you can still add some more meat which makes it more enticing to my dogs. Other good brands are Sojos and Grandma Lucy's.
Monica, Dooley & Roxie


----------



## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

tylerplari said:


> .
> I do know some will advocate cooking food which I really, really do not want to do. Her trainer recommended home cooked meals but I hate to cook even for my own family. She even said "it's not that bad, just cook once a week, etc.".
> I was wondering if anyone with picky eaters have tried dehydrated food? If so, which line? I don't mind adding cooked meat & oil to the dehydrated food. I just don't want to do the whole meal from scratch.
> 
> ...


Hi Michele - on the dehydrated food front I've been going on elsewhere on this forum - I think under the thread "Changing Food Questions" in General Discussion, or possibly under the thread "Bones" - about Ziwipeak, which is a relatively new dried raw food; it doesn't look remotely like kibble, it's more like a kind of jerky. You do NOT need to add 'cooked meat or oil' to it. I too went through all the chopping and changing and worrying and adding and subtracting and faffing around; I think by doing so we create picky eaters. I too went through the phase of grappling with cooking home food. Dogs don't need cooked food. Mine won't eat raw, or I'd feed them raw - my first dog loved the raw meaty bones diet but these two won't touch anything like a raw chicken wing. With Ziwipeak I have FINALLY found a food that they consistently hoover up; unless they just decide to skip a meal, which they quite often do (I have a 6 year old Coton and a 5 month old Havanese). Everyone is conscious of the cost of this food - on the face of it it looks expensive, but DO check out the quantities - they are tiny, and a bag of it lasts ages. Add to that the potential vet bills if you feed a less-good quality food and I am confident that going for the best possible is, long term, a cost saver. I also think that we kid ourselves that things cost the price of the pet food pack alone, and forget to include in our budget all the bits and pieces we keep on adding. I've gone from free-feeding to now taking the bowl up after ten minutes or so. I'm really trying not to anthropomorphise dogs as much as I used to - I was always worrying about variety and adding this and that to tempt them - I think it's a mug's game! I've read up quite a bit now on how dogs taste and it's not the way we do. Adding extra delicious things to regular feed devalues treats for training, too - they cease to be a treat if they are getting similar temptations at ordinary meals. Why, given that dogs' taste buds are not the same as ours they are 'treats' at all is an interesting point; maybe it is just that there is rarity value, or a sense of getting something different textured - I haven't got that far with the reading! Maybe it is actually the fact that they are getting food at the same time as getting the massive amount of attention inherent in working on training things. We all worry so much about our beloved dogs, and so we should, but not where the worry is actually a human thing and we are putting our own emotions into decisions that need to be taken more objectively - well, that's how I try and preach to myself, and I'm just about beginning to listen...some of the time! Do check out other threads, there are several on dietary issues and they are really interesting.


----------



## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

As I posted earlier in this thread, Leo had consistently been a very streaky eater from the time I brought him home at 10.5 weeks. I finally decided to change his food to Ziwipeak Air-Dried which I started him on last Monday. Now he will actually eat and do so enthusiastically. He also likes the food so much that it works well for training treats. I measure out the daily amount which is small then feed it over the course of the day - some in his food bowl and some as training treats. Leo's weight seems to be settling in at around 10-10.5 lbs. He is 6 months old but the wilder fluctuations in weight have stopped for the moment. I expect that he will add a few more pounds in the coming months but that weight gain will happen at a slower pace. The price per bag of Ziwipeak is high but for one small dog it works for us. I continue to feed Fromm Grain-Free to my other dogs and add other bits of pumpkin, yogurt, cottage cheese, egg yolk, etc to most meals (not all at the same time). Leo wouldn't eat those additions. He is more particular about the food he will eat than any other dog I have ever cared for.


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Gucci has never, well, seldom eaten twice a day..she eats once a day and some days, not at all. I give her vitamin supplements and she is by all means, healthy, but she eats when she is hungry, not out of habit.

There is no real time of day, either, its weird..one day she might cry for food at 10 am and the next day..4 pm or 6 pm. I used to think it was all so peculiar and worry about it, but I guess i am just used to it and her picky appetite and occasional fasts don't bother me anymore, I know she will be hungry the next day if she misses a day.

Kara


----------



## tylerplari (Mar 27, 2013)

Pucks104 said:


> As I posted earlier in this thread, Leo had consistently been a very streaky eater from the time I brought him home at 10.5 weeks. I finally decided to change his food to Ziwipeak Air-Dried which I started him on last Monday. Now he will actually eat and do so enthusiastically. He also likes the food so much that it works well for training treats. I measure out the daily amount which is small then feed it over the course of the day - some in his food bowl and some as training treats. Leo's weight seems to be settling in at around 10-10.5 lbs. He is 6 months old but the wilder fluctuations in weight have stopped for the moment. I expect that he will add a few more pounds in the coming months but that weight gain will happen at a slower pace. The price per bag of Ziwipeak is high but for one small dog it works for us. I continue to feed Fromm Grain-Free to my other dogs and add other bits of pumpkin, yogurt, cottage cheese, egg yolk, etc to most meals (not all at the same time). Leo wouldn't eat those additions. He is more particular about the food he will eat than any other dog I have ever cared for.


I was looking at the Ziwipeak food on Amazon.com a while back as an alternative. Can you estimate how long a bag would last at the rate you are feeding Leo & how many ounces is in the bag you purchased? Cassie turns 6 months tomorrow and her weight is around 7 pounds.
P.S. My husband uses a jerky type of treat while training her and she absolutely loves it.
Thank you!


----------



## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Pucks104 said:


> The price per bag of Ziwipeak is high but for one small dog it works for us. I continue to feed Fromm Grain-Free to my other dogs and add other bits of pumpkin, yogurt, cottage cheese, egg yolk, etc to most meals (not all at the same time). Leo wouldn't eat those additions. He is more particular about the food he will eat than any other dog I have ever cared for.


Thing is, have you really added up the cost of the pumpkin, yogurt, cottage cheese, egg yolk etc that you are adding to the Fromm and seen if, all put together, it's REALLY more expensive than Ziwipeak? When I did that I found that it honestly wasn't. I do think a lot of the adding of bits and pieces is, for me, a sort of need to feel I am thinking about it, adjusting what the packet provides by additions that give me a sense of somehow being in control, or being a good, caring, thinking person. I find it hard to JUST give the Ziwipeak and trust that someone else is doing all that caring and thinking; it makes me feel LESS caring and thinking but if I stand back from it all, the fiddling about with additions that are entirely unnecessary to Cuba must be because they are entirely necessary to ME! I'm having to learn to keep the yogurt and the egg yolk and all the similar things that I am used to thinking up to add to my dogs' bowls in my own bowl instead, and to stop feeling that I am somehow a lesser human being for trusting a dog food that looks to contain all that they could possibly need. It goes against the grain that I hate so much! (Grain in any diet, that is!!!)


----------



## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

tylerplari said:


> I was looking at the Ziwipeak food on Amazon.com a while back as an alternative. Can you estimate how long a bag would last at the rate you are feeding Leo & how many ounces is in the bag you purchased? Cassie turns 6 months tomorrow and her weight is around 7 pounds.
> P.S. My husband uses a jerky type of treat while training her and she absolutely loves it.
> Thank you!


At this point I've only been feeding a week and am going by the Ziwipeak feeding calculator on their website which has a 10.2-10.4 lb, 5/7 month old puppy eating 1.85 scoops (scoop comes in bag) per day. I split it into about 4 little servings, using a couple each day for training and a couple as meals in his dish. The amounts do look VERY small but this is a VERY nutritionally dense food. I would not want to over feed on this food both because of caloric density and richness of the food. I buy the 2.2 lb. (35.2 oz.) bag as the bag needs to be used reasonably quickly once it's opened. At this rate of feeding the bag should last about 19 days. I paid $27.50 per bag at the local pet boutique. The website says not to refrigerate or freeze. For small dogs the 5-7 month age is the age during which you would feed the largest daily portion of this food for most pets. Leo loves it. I don't have to buy other treats trying to find something he gets excited about for training and so far the company has a good reputation for quality and safety.


----------



## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Pucks104 said:


> I buy the 2.2 lb. bag as the bag needs to be used reasonably quickly once it's opened. The website says not to refrigerate or freeze.


I think that having to finish the bag in a relatively short timeframe IS a drawback with a small dog, because presumably buying bigger bags, although more of an outlay up front, is probably cheaper overall. But you can't do that if you are not going to get through it in time; I like having two kinds to alternate, as well - I've got the lamb one and the venison one so far; so that's two bags open. I'm probably doing exactly what I've just said (in my previous post) I am trying to STOP doing, which is to worry about variety unduly. But hey, I can't change everything about my human frailties in one go!!


----------



## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

Lalla said:


> I think that having to finish the bag in a relatively short timeframe IS a drawback with a small dog, because presumably buying bigger bags, although more of an outlay up front, is probably cheaper overall. But you can't do that if you are not going to get through it in time; I like having two kinds to alternate, as well - I've got the lamb one and the venison one so far; so that's two bags open. I'm probably doing exactly what I've just said (in my previous post) I am trying to STOP doing, which is to worry about variety unduly. But hey, I can't change everything about my human frailties in one go!!


I will alternate from bag to bag. Lamb now, next bag venison, next bag lamb, next bag venison and salmon and so on with only one bag open at a time to avoid spoilage and waste.


----------



## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

I'm only running two flavours concurrently because I've got two dogs on it, so I think it'll be ok, but otherwise your way would be definitely better.


----------



## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

Lalla said:


> I'm only running two flavours concurrently because I've got two dogs on it, so I think it'll be ok, but otherwise your way would be definitely better.


With two you can probably work through 2 bags concurrently.


----------

