# RE:Bridget Gately Post-"Breeder gone wrong"



## WPTreasures (Nov 20, 2007)

*RE:Bridget Gately Post-"Breeder gone wrong"*

This topic is in response to Bridget Gately's posting regarding our Havanese puppy Alexander.

Ms. Gately contacted me about purchasing our Havanese puppy, Alexander. She seemed very nice and I felt secure in the knowledge that she would give him a good home. Alexander was listed on our website for $500. plus shipping and it stated that he was 4 months old. A weight was not stated because there is not a weight standard for Havanese; there is a height standard (please refer to AKC's breed standard and Havanese Club of American standard).

When I attempted to return Ms. Gately's phone call the same day she was irate, vulgar, and would not listen to reason. It was impossible to have a rational conversation with her shouting and rudeness. No, we do not attach important puppy paperwork to our puppies' crates when they fly because it is possible for them to become lost! All AKC paperwork and shot records are sent via some trackable means so that I can be sure they arrive. Alexander's AKC paperwork was sent on 11/17/2007, the day after he was shipped via FEDEX. The tracking number for this package is 790876598030. This tracking number was provided to Ms. Gately the same day that they were sent to her. You can track this package at www.fedex.com! It included his AKC paperwork, vaccination record, and his puppy care kit.

Alexander was NEVER advertised as being 6 lbs. He is 4 months old and is a chubby, healthy GROWING puppy! From his photos, it is easy to see that he is not small by any means. Before he was shipped to Ms. Gately, he was given a bath, was brushed, and had a bow placed in his hair. He was NOT dirty or sickly. He was shipped with a blanket for his comfort also!

As it states on our website, just because someone is interested in one of our puppies, does not mean that they are able to purchase him/her. We screen our puppy buyers carefully. Each puppy must have a completed deposit form received also. On Ms. Gately's deposit form, she circled breeding so Alexander was purchased with the intention of breeding. It is now apparent from her postings that Ms. Gately honed in on Alexander because he was listed for a lower price on our website with the intention of purchasing the least expensive puppy to breed rather than feeling a connection with his photos. There are plenty of Havanese breeders located in NY if Ms. Gately would have felt more comfortable. If Alexander did not look like how SHE thought he would, she should have been responsible and forthright enough in her own misjudgment to say such and ask "what can we do about this"? We offered to accept Alexander back however Ms. Gately refused to "be out the money to ship him back."

Had I saw Ms. Gately's true colors before Alexander was shipped she would have received her money back and been asked to look elsewhere for a puppy. We screen our potential buyers and frequently turn away customers. It is apparent from reading the postings she has made on this forum that even after we provided her with a tracking number for Alexander's paperwork Ms. Gately failed to mention that and has continued to lead all of the members of this board to believe that she still has received no contact from us, her AKC paperwork, and is being wronged. That shows her deceptiveness. We have gone above and beyond to work with Ms. Gately with no success.

We are able and willing to fax proof of the FEDEX tracking number and Ms. Gately's deposit form as well as emails that state her AKC paperwork was sent to her to anyone who would like to verify these TRUTHS!

We are very concerned about our puppy's welfare in Ms. Gately's care. We want Alexander sent back to us now. We will issue a refund to Ms. Gately of $500.; which is the purchase price she paid for him. AKC has been notified and documentation has been notified. I have faxed over copies of her postings on this forum, the Fed-Ex tracking number, airway bill copy, AKC paperwork copy, and all other applicable information. Ms.Gately has shown that she has an anger management problem mentality and I wonder what she is doing to our puppy? Is he even receiving proper care? Our puppies are hand raised under our feet; we love them very much. It is heartbreaking to know that our puppy is in this situation. Is Ms. Gately taking her disappointment and anger out on our puppy? Instead of thinking what a healthy well fed puppy I have; Ms. Gately is obviously of the mentality "Oh, he is chubby and healthy and I am unhappy about it!"

I also want to thank Cameron, whoever you may be, for giving us the heads up about this smear campaign that this person probably thought we would never see. We think it's very appalling that people can get on the web somewhere and post vindictive untruths and other people jump on the bandwagon not even knowing if the information is fact or fiction. As previously stated, we have documentation to prove that the things she is stating is false. For those of you who did not jump on the bandwagon and smear us, we sincerely thank you. We have spent over 17 years raising and showing dogs and have never had anything even remotely close to this happen to us before. This would also be a good place to interject for all of those who believed that Alexander may be a mixed breed; his sire's brother (whom my grandmother owns) and great-uncle are both Champions!

Kind regards, 
Beckie and Jennifer Doyle


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I understand the desire to defend yourself, but I hope you aren't going to post this all over the board. It was already posted in one topic before this one.


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## WPTreasures (Nov 20, 2007)

*Just wanting to make certain it is seen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Like Kimberly, I understand your desire to voice your side. However, I re-read the posts from Bridget and I believe she sounds *very rational and devoted to her puppy, *however concerned that the papers were not given as promised.

From an objective viewpoint, there appears to be a lack of communication going on here. I'd assume that if Bridget had the Fed-ex # to track her paperwork, she would not have posted to the forum questions in regards to obtaining it.

What are the names of your Champion dogs?

Also, it might be a good idea to consider the health testing that is "good for only one year". I'm sure that is in place to insure that dogs do not DEVELOP conditions after testing. It really helps reassure the puppy buyers that you are concerned with the future health of your puppies and your line. The fact that it is only good for "one year" shouldn't be a deterrent. Alot can happen in one year, a dog could develop a cataract, chrondodysplasia or hip dysplasia.

Kara


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Just for the record, she never posted her full name here, so I'm not sure why you felt the need to do that. And, she did say some nice things about you.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I am sorry you feel this way but I have no respect for breeders who dont health check their lines. You can justify it anyway you want but health testing does make a diffence.

You say you care about your pups, then how can you sell them with breeding rights without showing and health testing? Dont you care that one of your pups could wind up in a crate breeding for the rest of her life? Maybe not because you appear to be a broker to me but that's only my opinion. I have no patients with money hungrey breeders, brokers or puppymills.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I have 2 questions for you,if I may......

Are all your lines bigger dogs like that,or is he just a extra big guy?The reason I ask is because my havanese was 5.3 lbs.at 4 months of age and now at 19 mo.he is 10.6lbs.That is a really big puppy at 14 lbs.

Who is this Cameron you referred to in your post?


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I'm curious too! Who is Cameron?

My Havanese was maybe 4 lbs at 4 months, and 8 lbs now at 10 months. That's a very big Havanese, are you sure your b*tch wasnt' exposed to another breed at the time of heat?

Kara


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## WPTreasures (Nov 20, 2007)

I am not on here to get into an argument; just state the facts as they relate to Alexander. It is obvious that the members of this board argue. I don't care to do that. I want the TRUTH out there as it relates to our puppy.

I recommend going back and re-reading her posts; they were in no way positive. My website information was placed on here and I received emails as well from members of this board; luckily one of them was from a decent person giving me a heads up about this. Yes, it is hard to communicate with someone shouting obscenities at you; however, that was the way that Ms. Gately communicates apparently. Also, the Fed-Ex tracking number was gave to her on Saturday, which is when she was still letting everyone on this board believe she was being 'wronged' by us. You can go to Fed-Ex's website and put in the tracking number and verify that the papers where sent on Saturday.


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## WPTreasures (Nov 20, 2007)

Thumperlove said:


> I'm curious too! Who is Cameron?
> 
> My Havanese was maybe 4 lbs at 4 months, and 8 lbs now at 10 months. That's a very big Havanese, are you sure your b*tch wasnt' exposed to another breed at the time of heat?
> 
> Kara


Apparently, my post was not read. Alexander is a full blood HAVANESE. Cameron was someone from here who was kind enough to tell me about the lies that were being posted on here.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I'm sorry you took my questions as arguing.I was merely asking.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

You're getting the wrong impression of the group here. I've been a member for about six months and I've never found a more helpful, giving and caring group of people anywhere on the net. Arguing doesn't even seem to be on the agenda. They were responding to a poster's concerns about her puppy, whom I must say, is absolutely adorable.

His weight is surprising, not that I pretend to be an expert, which led to the thought that there might have been some other mix involved.

I too understand your desire to "set the record straight." I went back and looked at some of your older pages and you've certainly had some adorable havs.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

You can state the truth and the facts but then you can't answer simple questions that people have about your truth and facts? Yes there is no weight *standard* in Havanese, but there is a weight *average* and your Alexander (now Roscoe) is as far above and beyond that average from any other Havanese I have ever seen, heard of, or read about. It does raise some questions and I'm not sure ANY breeder wouldn't think that was strange.

In addition, I don't think that any breeder that doesn't health test the sire and dam is acting responsibly and there are no reasons good enough to justify that fact.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

My question is very direct, are you a puppymill broker? If so, I have no time for you. No need to clear your name.

No excuses for reselling imnocent dogs or mass breeding


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## WPTreasures (Nov 20, 2007)

I will not answer questions that do not relate to the subject at hand-ALEXANDER! However, a direct answer for you would be NO! I have no time to argue. The facts are the facts regarding Alexander.

Have a nice day!


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I thought so


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## WPTreasures (Nov 20, 2007)

pjewel said:


> You're getting the wrong impression of the group here. I've been a member for about six months and I've never found a more helpful, giving and caring group of people anywhere on the net. Arguing doesn't even seem to be on the agenda. They were responding to a poster's concerns about her puppy, whom I must say, is absolutely adorable.
> 
> His weight is surprising, not that I pretend to be an expert, which led to the thought that there might have been some other mix involved.
> 
> I too understand your desire to "set the record straight." I went back and looked at some of your older pages and you've certainly had some adorable havs.


Apparently from the other posts below yours I have right impression of the group! It's very sad. This will be my last posting on here. I only wanted the facts out there for anyone who cares to see them regarding Alexander. I won't argue with those who are only out to dismiss the truth!


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## WPTreasures (Nov 20, 2007)

pjewel said:


> You're getting the wrong impression of the group here. I've been a member for about six months and I've never found a more helpful, giving and caring group of people anywhere on the net. Arguing doesn't even seem to be on the agenda. They were responding to a poster's concerns about her puppy, whom I must say, is absolutely adorable.
> 
> His weight is surprising, not that I pretend to be an expert, which led to the thought that there might have been some other mix involved.
> 
> I too understand your desire to "set the record straight." I went back and looked at some of your older pages and you've certainly had some adorable havs.





lfung5 said:


> I thought so


You thought so what? I guess I was too direct in my response! We are not brokers. All of our puppies are raised IN OUR HOME by us, with our family.

Have a nice day!


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Answering a question is not arguing, and I'm not sure where you got the impression that it is.

By the way, I asked you a direct question about the fact of Alexander's weight. So that's about a "fact" of Alexander, isn't it?


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## LuvMyHavanese (Apr 13, 2007)

Clearly, there are many red flags here. I think someone that defensive has a lot to hide. Instead of trying to answer some simple questions about their practices. I wouldnt waste anymore time on her.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

WPTreasures said:


> I will not answer questions that do not relate to the subject at hand-ALEXANDER! However, a direct answer for you would be NO! I have no time to argue. The facts are the facts regarding Alexander.
> 
> Have a nice day!


Gee, I have never seen a breeder that REFUSED to answer questions regarding health testing the parents, NOR..is brave enough to disclose the registered names of the sire and dam. That is quite suspicious.

If anyone's tone here is hostile and argumentative, I'd have to say its yours, dear.

Now, we'll be sure to direct people to this post when they come in asking about your kennel since you were so kind to provide us with knowledge about yourself and your dogs like breeders generally do. And, gosh..we sure do get alot of puppy buyers in here, don't we ladies?

Kara


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Beckie and Jennifer,

I think you have the wrong idea about the people on this forum. I think they are just trying to protect Bridget who has been quite upset about this whole thing. You'll never find a group of nicer people on the web, thats for sure! 

Anyways, I'm sure Bridget and yourself are now in direct communication with each other, so hopefully you can work it out.

PS-- how can you afford to sell champion sired puppies for $600?! The going rate is usually around $1500-$2500 for pets to show dogs.


Thanks!
Ryan


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I think the questions and answers are clear. Imagine what the poor little guy's price would be if she charged by the pound!!!

Amanda


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

Thumperlove said:


> Gee, I have never seen a breeder that REFUSED to answer questions regarding health testing the parents, NOR..is brave enough to disclose the registered names of the sire and dam. That is quite suspicious.
> 
> If anyone's tone here is hostile and argumentative, I'd have to say its yours, dear.
> 
> ...


ound:ound:


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

ama0722 said:


> I think the questions and answers are clear. Imagine what the poor little guy's price would be if she charged by the pound!!!
> 
> Amanda


Oh my Gosh...........ound:eace:ound:


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

ama0722 said:


> I think the questions and answers are clear. Imagine what the poor little guy's price would be if she charged by the pound!!!
> 
> Amanda


ound:ound:


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

I agree Shannon. You can tell when someone hasn't taken the time to really peruse this forum and find out what a spectacular community it is. If they'd read the posts about Shadow, Tessa, Ricky, the Hav Rescue auction and all of the threads when folks are worried about their babies being spayed or neutered, they certainly wouldn't make a blanket statement that the forum is argumentative. I cannot think of a group of more or less strangers that has come together better than this one.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

:grouphug:


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

> You can tell when someone hasn't taken the time to really peruse this forum and find out what a spectacular community it is.


That is SO true, we share love, laughs, stories, heartache, friendship and knowledge of our wonderful breed and HELP puppy buyers understand the breed.

:kiss:

What a wonderful, large and GROWING community!
Kara


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## monkeytam (May 7, 2007)

I was reading the boards here long before joining to say hi. Just trying to do the right thing and find out what good breeders are. 

Alicia


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Alicia, we love having you here and letting us get to know you and your family  There are lots of folks here that can answer any questions and help you find a great breeder that does the proper health testing (as recommended by the Havanese Club of America).

Thanks for re-iterating my point that puppy buyers often come here and ask about breeders.

By the way, I love your Myspace! You have a beautiful family!  

Kara


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Just for the record, there are some larger Havanese. Joan has a couple that Leslie own who are 28 pounds!!!!! They are cute, just large! And Stogie had one in his litter that was almost 20lbs. 

I just wanted to clear that up. They range from small to very large. Obviously some of those dogs are over standard, and Im sure Alexander would be, but all dogs are not within standard. 

I like Alexanders look, he is cute. I do hope this gets resolved and everyone can do it in a mature way. 

I also highly disagree with the no-health testing policies, but thats up to each buyer to decide. I don't think anyone is here to argue, if you are honest and do things the right way, people are very nice. We have read so many heartbreaking stories of puppies sick with heart problems, liver issues ( esp. the "mini" havs) and so on, its our mission in educating buyers what to look for when purchasing a puppy. I have trained my peeps well! eace:

Hopefully your time here will turn into a positive experience and may you keep an open mind and learn from all the good natured people.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

WPTreasures said:


> You thought so what? I guess I was too direct in my response! We are not brokers. All of our puppies are raised IN OUR HOME by us, with our family.
> 
> Have a nice day!


The people here are people who truly love this breed and their dogs. We spoil them rotten. 
I am sorry to bring up the puppymill stuff, but when your website was posted, I was curious. It has all the classic signs of a puppymill broker, no young pups or liters. Most brokers buy pups at 8 weeks of age or older at auctions or directly from a mill. Also, you are in a puppymill state, no adult pictures of sires or dams, no show pictures, no health testing, pups of all different ages, mini's, full breeding rights, and you won't allow visitors. It is unbelievable someone would be inclined to purchase a pup from you when there are so many good breeders out there. I just hope this will raise public awareness and stop this madness. I am a nice person, but when animals are being abused It gets ugly. 
If you are upset you are being accused of this, maybe you can change your ways and prove you are a respectable caring breeder. 
I have done a lot of research on this subject and have been involved in puppy mill awareness. You can fool everyone, but you are not fooling me.


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## monkeytam (May 7, 2007)

Thanks Kara! My family is my world, that and the Backstreet Boys, LOL! My husband is a bit older than me but it has worked out good so far. Can't see it changing. Before we get a puppy I have to give my husband a puppy buying education course. I have given him the link to this forum I am not sure if he has been here yet. I am sure he will though. 

It's good there is a credible site/forum for people to come to.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

My husband is 8.5 years older than me and its a good match! I've always gotten along better w/ the older guys, they always treated me much better for some reason! 

Stick around and learn like Maryam did, and read some of her threads on her adventure of searching (and waiting) for a puppy! Learn how to research the sire and dam through offa.org and check the health testing results. A great breeder should answer your questions and actually appreciate the fact that you ask the right questions! The ones that truly care about their dogs, care about WHOM the dog goes to and that they are monitoring their dogs' health for the good of all parties involved.

Just because someone has a fancy website is no guarantee.

And yes, I have to agree with Melissa that the larger 20+ havs are normal. I do know one here from a very large former Hav kennel that my friend owns and he is over 20, easily.

I guess what is shocking to most is the higher weight so young, but as Missy pointed out, that's quite plausible.

Whis.Treasures, I didnt' "attack" you in my questioning about health testing, but it just doesnt' add up. Most people that have Ch. dogs are indeed proud, and proud to share their names and line, especially to potential puppy buyers. And I was politely asking you to "reconsider" your stance on "yearly testing". Take a look at the HCA's new health page:

http://www.havanese.org/hcaHealth.htm

Why not join the HCA and participate in the "star" system? Its a great way to reassure people that you care about your dogs and their health!

Kara


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## CapotesMom (Apr 3, 2007)

I posted this on the other thread but I think it deserves to be posted over here as well.

I think the thing that concerns me isn't the weight of the dog or the he said she said. Obviously both parties are testy. Not once did uptown come across as negative or like she would be kicking around her new puppy (and to suggest something is downright obsurd). She sounded like she genuinely cares about her new puppy and doesn't want it sent back to an environment that might be considered bad for it. 

The thing that concerns me..no matter how much you speak of your puppies breeding and how much you care for them, you've yet do disprove anything she's said. If you sent the AKC papers, that's great, but they're just papers and they can be produced on a computer without a seconds thought. You don't allow people to come visit your home where you raise puppies and sell them and that to me is a MONSTEROUS red flag. I would NEVER purchase a puppy without seeing the environment in which it was raised and no amount of 'meeting you in the middle' would work for me if I were buying a puppy. 

Aside from that, testing is VERY necessary if you are breeding and selling your puppies as AKC and purebred. It's not about it's accuracy or having to get it done every year to make sure they're up to date, ask any breeder on this website and that's a given already. If you plan on breeding you should make these necessary arrangements in your budget to ensure that the puppies you sell are healthy and are bettering the breed no matter what your own personal beliefs are. 

Until these issues are resolved, and after reading everything said, I'd still be vitally uncomfortable with purchasing a puppy from you or anyone else who decides to take on the responsibility of breeding and doesn't fulfill these obligations. 

Get mad at me if you like, but that's the way I see it.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Mindy,
Don't worry she is already mad at me.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Guys, I doubt she will be back. She advertises her pups on that dogfinder thing. At $500-$600 a pop, she will ALWAYS easily sell her dogs to unsuspecting people... People that have never even heard of this forum or even know how to research...
Sooooooooo.... you can't save everybody!

Ryan


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Beamer said:


> Guys, I doubt she will be back. She advertises her pups on that dogfinder thing. At $500-$600 a pop, she will ALWAYS easily sell her dogs to unsuspecting people... People that have never even heard of this forum or even know how to research...
> Sooooooooo.... you can't save everybody!
> 
> Ryan


That is a sad truth, Ryan, and it's what keeps me awake at night! sigh...... 

I may have added fuel to the fire in that thread after Bridget posted, by wanting to email this breeder, wanting to "out" her, but I know the members here. I know that we ALL love the Havanese and only want the best for them. I am not the only one upset by some of the stuff written at that website. Some of us are more vocal about it - like me. lol I'm the type that would march right up to a property that I knew was a puppy mill and want to smack the crap out of the 'breeder'! I can't stand to think of how some of those animals are mistreated.

Linda says it all so well.... "when animals are being abused It gets ugly". I'm not saying any animals are/were abused there, but there is a much, much better way to breed the Havanese, safely, and with more interest in the breed as a whole, not as a way to make money.

Some backyard breeders may not mistreat their dogs, but they are in it for the money more than they may want to admit.

If I, who is "only" a Hav owner and lover, can learn soooooo much about proper breeding, showing and promoting the breed in one short year, than you can't tell me the information isn't out there for people who have been breeding for, say, 17 years ! You can't plead ignorance and keep doing it your way when so many people, including highly esteemed breeders and experts, tell you you're wrong and that it is the dogs and future owners of your dogs who suffer.

And those sites, like the puppyfind.org one? If I could, I'd get rid of all of them or at the very least, put up a banner linking people to this forum!


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## ChristineL (Aug 31, 2007)

I just read the thread and caught up on all the drama. Wow ...


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## CapotesMom (Apr 3, 2007)

puppyfind is just like every other site out there. There's a lot of bad, but there's also good. I got capote off of puppyfind and was able to visit the breeder and see where Capote came from, his littermates, his home, as well as the sire and the dam before I purchased him. It's not necessarily the site, it's just the fact that the buyer needs to be educated before they go on a hunt for their new furbaby. I went through a lot of lemons before I found Capote and everytime so much as a tiny red flag popped up I walked away.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

ama0722 said:


> I think the questions and answers are clear. Imagine what the poor little guy's price would be if she charged by the pound!!!
> 
> Amanda


AMANDA!!!!!!!! Put a warning on a post like this. Coffee hurts when it comes out the nose! ound:


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## Gableshavs (Jun 19, 2007)

I cannot understand why you would sell a puppy of that size for breeding. Any reputable breeder would be extremely cautious breeding anything that is not better for the breed. At 16 weeks and 14 lbs this puppy is going to probably be over standard, and would never get their championship. This should have been sold with a spay/neuter contract. Are you a reputable breeder? Do you have champions, do you show or health test (OFA) not just a vet visit. I still can't understand why anyone would sell such a big puppy with a full AKC registration. Do you really care about the future of your puppies?


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

marjrc said:


> That is a sad truth, Ryan, and it's what keeps me awake at night! sigh......
> 
> I may have added fuel to the fire in that thread after Bridget posted, by wanting to email this breeder, wanting to "out" her, but I know the members here. I know that we ALL love the Havanese and only want the best for them. I am not the only one upset by some of the stuff written at that website. Some of us are more vocal about it - like me. lol I'm the type that would march right up to a property that I knew was a puppy mill and want to smack the crap out of the 'breeder'! I can't stand to think of how some of those animals are mistreated.
> 
> ...


Funny you are like me Marj. I actually protested puppy mills. We marched down the road with sighs and stood on puppy mill properties yelling at them! I almost got arrested. I also took a weekend and visited some of them pretending to be a unsuspecting buyer. I thought I could bust them but they are licensed and aren't doing anything wrong.. It's very sad.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Jan- sorry for the coffee up the nose!

Linda- That was my first thought OMG the gov doesn't know about places like this... I couldn't imagine anyone would be okay with it. Almost everyone has had a positive interaction with a dog and knows they can't just live in a little cage and be bred and bred. I was in total chaos when I realized it was okay!!!


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

I found Kodi on NextDayPets. I was very lucky. He has a very good pedigree and his sire has produced several champions. I didn't get him at a bargain basement price, either. So, I wouldn't say that everyone that lists their dogs on these sites is a bad breeder. They just aren't the type of breeders I would go to, now that I am more educated (thanks to this forum).

What makes me so mad about this breeder is - she is not health testing and then selling her pups as breeding stock. No wonder we are seeing problems with the health of this breed.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I agree! I did look on puppyfind and Next day, and there were a variety of breeders and PRICE ranges,..Personally, a really low price sends red flags to me? Unless it is a rescue.

Did you look at the Previous puppies page? Those are some LONG legged havs, WOW.

I did look at ALOT of pictures of Havanese when I was looking for a puppy and I was drawn to certain 'looks' although, I wasnt' as knowledgeable about health testing as I am now! I didn't find this forum until after I found Gucci.

Kara


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Michelle,
Yeah, like I said earlier in this thread.. thats one of the primary reasons the HSD'ers left. Ok, HSD has been typed! An alarm should be going off at Greg's house any second now and he should online in a few,... lol


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

Beamer said:


> Michelle,
> Yeah, like I said earlier in this thread.. thats one of the primary reasons the HSD'ers left. Ok, HSD has been typed! An alarm should be going off at Greg's house any second now and he should online in a few,... lol


ound:ound:ound:ound:


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Beamer said:


> Michelle,
> Yeah, like I said earlier in this thread.. thats one of the primary reasons the HSD'ers left. Ok, HSD has been typed! An alarm should be going off at Greg's house any second now and he should online in a few,... lol


You are funnnnnyyy!

I think they have a search engine that picks up key words? LOL

Kara


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Ryan ound:ound:ound:

I was gonna say that, but was trying to avoid the HSD police.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Silly Kara and Ryan, they don't have a search engine, they have a spy.....whose job it is to read each and every thread and call Greg whenever those three letters are typed in succession.........:spy:HSD:gossip:HSD:spy:


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Mea culpa. I stand corrected about some of those websites where you can still find wonderful, healthy Havs. I guess in my anger and frustration lately over a couple of threads around here, I was ready to blast ALL pet selling sites! lol

I almost spit out my water when I read your post just now, Ryan!! You are a funny guy. ound: :clap2: LOL

It's almost sad though, when you can't even talk about HSD without getting blasted!

I hope new HSD owners aren't put off by all this talk, though I imagine they might be.  We just want the best for ALL our Havanese, silky, tall, tiny, huge, cottony, bratty or otherwise!


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

ama0722 said:


> Jan- sorry for the coffee up the nose!
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Ha, I'll get your back my little pretty (insert cackle here)


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Marj, I didn't take what you said personally. I think I was real lucky as far as Kodi goes. But I had several good conversations with the "breeder" and we still correspond via email to this day. When I went to Westminster last year, I met the breeder of Kodi's sire and we spoke. So like I said, I was lucky.

If people go that route, I hope they are armed with enough knowledge to know what to look for so they don't have problem pups.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I found Quincy there too,and I saw Missy's Cash there ton one of those sites.I don't think it's fair to make a blanket statement one way or the other.I know I wouldn't endorse them,but I think if you do enough checking/background etc.and do what I'm going to call your "hav homework" you can find a really great dog.My Quincy came from 2 quality breeders.......and many champions on both sides.I wouldn't give him up for nothing.So I think you just need to be cautious and do your "hav homework".eace:


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Many of those sites are similar to newspaper ads. You may find a dog listed, but you still need to be armed with knowledge and be willing to ask questions and establish a relationship with the breeder.


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## pizno (May 8, 2007)

WPTreasures said:


> Apparently, my post was not read. Alexander is a full blood HAVANESE. Cameron was someone from here who was kind enough to tell me about the lies that were being posted on here.


OK, so Alexander is a full blood Havanese. I understand that his hair might have gotten matted in travel (and that the bow fell out). I realize that some mistakes were made - you should have met her in person, and she should have been able to see the puppy (and where your puppies are bred) before she purchased him. She should not have bought a Havanese for $500 (red flag right there) that did not have the testing done, and you should have your dogs tested - and offer a better guarantee.

But what I don't understand is why didn't you tell her that this 4 month old puppy weighs 14 lbs? That is something that she should have known ahead of time, and decided if she wanted a particularly large Havanese or not.

If you stepped back, you might see mistakes you have made, too, not just Bridget. I think it would be good to assess your operation, if you want happy customers.

Carol


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I want to know who Cameron is........I've never met a forum member named Cameron.I think it is probably someone wanting to stir up trouble.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Julie said:


> I found Quincy there too,and I saw Missy's Cash there ton one of those sites.I don't think it's fair to make a blanket statement one way or the other.I know I wouldn't endorse them,but I think if you do enough checking/background etc.and do what I'm going to call your "hav homework" you can find a really great dog.My Quincy came from 2 quality breeders.......and many champions on both sides.I wouldn't give him up for nothing.So I think you just need to be cautious and do your "hav homework".eace:


Wow Julie, I agree. But I didn't know my breeder advertised on next day pets.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Julie said:


> I want to know who Cameron is........I've never met a forum member named Cameron.I think it is probably someone wanting to stir up trouble.


Exactly what I thought Julie, now who would want to stir up trouble with us???


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

You know what concerns me here, is that the if this person is a puppy miller, from our feedback we may have inadvertantly given away info on pricing. Who is to say this person won't now turn around to sell at the prices mentioned. 

It just floors me that someone could sell puppy for a bargain basement price, without meeting people in person to ensure the pup is going to a good home. You can tell A LOT about a person just by being with them.

Also, I am most likely stirring the pot here but, I think it is rather ridiculous to be giving full breeding rights to someone who has no experience in breeding and showing. That is what mentoring is all about. And by doing the research first then this $500 price, no visits and breeding rights would have been a BIG red flag. I don't know, but to me this whole thing smells really fishy!! :spy::fish:


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Julie said:


> I want to know who Cameron is........I've never met a forum member named Cameron.I think it is probably someone wanting to stir up trouble.


My guess is, if someone here did it they wouldn't necessarily use their real name.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Hmmmmm, Maybe Cameron is playing both sides.... :spy: ound:


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Cameron could be anyone. It could be someone who posts regularly, a non-posting regular member, it could even be an unregistered lurker or it could be completely made up by the breeder, too. 

I like to look at the Who is Online section a lot. We have a lot of people that are registered and read often, but have zero posts. I often recognize a couple of breeders by their user names. Then again, have you guys ever noticed how many people are reading as "Guest"? There are times when there are 7 people showing up as Guest and a couple more spiders (search engines working). If this forum is linked to a few web sites, then any of the key phrases used on this board can be pulled up by Google. Hey, someone could have even searched the kennel name and found that post. (I search my own kennel name once in a while to see which sites are linked to it.)


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## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

Ryan, you are a riot.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Wow Kimberly, that is a very cool feature!!! I don't know a lot of those people on who's on-line.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

It _is_ really cool, Missy! I love using it. A lot of times when I'm looking, I can see others looking too. LOL! It says "Melissa Miller Viewing Who's Online."

The shortcut to it is to go to the main page and click the white words above the users name that says "Online Users: 32" (or whatever number is online). Then you can scroll through and see what everyone is viewing. If someone is looking through the Gallery or the Groups, it just says the person is viewing "Havanese Forum", so you can't really tell what they are viewing. I love looking through forum features.

And then when you see a user name that you don't know, you can click on their name and see info about them - how many posts they have, when they joined, their web site (if they have one), etc.

Right now, out of 32 online, we have 7 people marked as Guest, and one Google Spider.


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

Haha I discovered this recently too and find it funny to see exactly what people are looking at. It was the first place I saw that it lists the serch engins scanning.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Really neat!!


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Havtahava said:


> It _is_ really cool, Missy! I love using it. A lot of times when I'm looking, I can see others looking too. LOL! It says "Melissa Miller Viewing Who's Online."


Kimberly are you talking about me?? ound: i love this feature as well, more so when I want to PM someone I can see if they are active online or if they just have the forum up and have walked away, yea I do that all the time as well.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

If I walk away while looking at a thread, does it just show that I'm looking at that thread for an hour? LOL..I leave my laptop on and up all day, but I'm not always on.

I found that feature a few months ago and its neat! That's how I knew that certain people were tracking my posts! ound:

Kara


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Thumperlove said:


> I found that feature a few months ago and its neat! That's how I knew that certain people were tracking my posts! ound:
> 
> Kara


Sounds like you may have a forum stalker Kara, you better be careful. ound:


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Yes...and did you notice I even "called out" my stalker(s) and there was NO denial? ound:

It's hard being famous...and/or feared!! haha.

Kara


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Leeann, now that you mention it, I think you are on that I see looking now and then! Ha ha! the other day there were three of us all looking at the same time.

Stalker? do you mean if you post and then someone kept posting after you? Wouldn't that also because it becomes the top topic? 

No, it doesn't show you (general "you") online all day if you leave the forum on your screen. If you go back to Who's Online and sort people by the time, you can see that a lot of people haven't been active for 10 minutes or so. I haven't paid attention to the exact time it dumps you from the list, but it is sometime around 10 to 15 minutes or so.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

No, no no..nothing like that. Someone was worried I would talk about an event, and they never posted after me, but watched me closely for a few days, no biggie. lol

Kara


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Wow, I missed that one Kara. But I do miss alot, I think I have the forum up more than I am actually on.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

OK, you know something about the forum that I don't, because I can't figure out how you can tell if someone is watching you on the forum. They would have to be clicked on your profile following you and it never says WHICH profile they are viewing. You'll have to PM me your secret!


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Please PM me too! That is so good to know


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

This spy thing is way too CIA for me. It's getting spooky in here. :spy:


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## Krimmyk (Dec 7, 2006)

Beamer said:


> Guys, I doubt she will be back. She advertises her pups on that dogfinder thing. At $500-$600 a pop, she will ALWAYS easily sell her dogs to unsuspecting people... People that have never even heard of this forum or even know how to research...
> Sooooooooo.... you can't save everybody!
> 
> Ryan


There were MANY people we looked in to in the 18 months it took to be blessed with Sully. My impression of them was not favorable and not just because of the lack of health testing a call can make all the difference. 
But, dang a 4 month at 14lbs!!!:jaw: Sully is almost 13months and is right around 10. To top it off any noobie coming on to "defend" them self and all but insults the members is just sad in my book. Every question no matter how dumb (refer to my OCD hubbys posts!!) have been answered not only fully, by with guidance. The people on here long ago earned my and my families respect and loyalty.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Krimsin, that is very nice to hear.  Some of us have been on here a long while, others longer but didn't do much posting. Now, almost a year after I joined, there are sooooo many new members and we almost always get such great feedback! 

I know that when I found this forum and I had questions, I was very relieved to have this source of information. I am also on a mailing list for Cdn. Hav owners and I get a lot of info there too, but this forum is great because there are so many diverse people on here. 

Kimberly, you are way too smart, girl!! I had no idea you could get all that just from looking at a few things. Wow! I'm going to have to try it myself now. ound:


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Oh my, that is sooooooooooo COOL!!!!! I see there are guests reading certain threads and members doing stuff, like managing attachments. I mean, that's almost spooky that you can tell what we're doing! ound:

Like Kara, and I'm sure many of you, I am at the forum for hours but not actually sitting here reading/posting.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Ha ha ha! This forum has so many options. It is really nice to find old posts with ease, but some of those other things are just a nice bonus. Not necessary, but fun.


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## Guest (Nov 28, 2007)

Ok, you guys..I just joined this site yesterday and already I HAVA-HEADACHE from reading threads all day (I'm addicted already!)

My male Hav is 2 years and 14 lbs, which I'm supposing is normal for what I have read (I was under the impression that 8 to 13 lbs was standard) 

But 14lbs at 4 months??? That's a scary, questionable one....


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## Lola (Mar 22, 2007)

My Lola is a little over a year and weighs about 10lbs. 14lbs is really big for a puppy I think.


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2007)

..This woman made me curious, so I went online and checked out her Web site...STRANGE! She has no references or photos posted of the parents.. just a couple of photos. What's also really weird is that she has a blurb regarding how to groom show dogs....What's with that??


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## maria v (Oct 31, 2007)

wow!!! i guess i was awy for too long!! what a saga!!
i guess I am adopting at the nearest shelter!!


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## Krimmyk (Dec 7, 2006)

imamurph52 said:


> ..This woman made me curious, so I went online and checked out her Web site...STRANGE! She has no references or photos posted of the parents.. just a couple of photos. What's also really weird is that she has a blurb regarding how to groom show dogs....What's with that??


Back early this year we came across them, and I called to "interview" them. I swear it was a teenager on the phone "like we don't test 'cause it don't mean the kids won't have poor vision and stuff" ound: I couldn't believe it! Needless to say, we didn't buy a dog from there!


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Krimmyk said:


> Back early this year we came across them, and I called to "interview" them. I swear it was a teenager on the phone "like we don't test 'cause it don't mean the kids won't have poor vision and stuff" ound: I couldn't believe it! Needless to say, we didn't buy a dog from there!


Ohh Gawd... LOL, That's funny and reminds me of a few breeders I talked to. I hung up from a few phone calls just shaking my head...its a shame they don't make breeders get a 'license' or take a class, more regulations.... or something. My 12 year old could outwit a few I talked to.

Kara


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## pizno (May 8, 2007)

Someone I knew got a cue little Hav from someone in Northern Wisconsin. I heard they had one more and thought it had my name all over it. I called the woman and turns out she was selling it for someone else, and they didn't do any testing, so I asked her why and she said it was 'God's Will' whether or not these puppies had problems. I think I may have posted this on here before.......I'm still trying to get over it!

Carol


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

God's will?? lol...that's a new one for 'not' testing!

I had one breeder tell me that she bred dogs in order to supplement her 'welfare' income and she took CASH or money order so she wouldn't lose her 'benefits'. LOL!!!!!!!! Uhh..okay...buh-bye! This one was also selling below market value, I can't remember ALL the reasons I was told for not testing, but one person told me Havs have NO health problems whatsoever, another one told me that Vet-check ups WERE 'health testing' that they referred to in regards to doing it. 

But, God's will? eeks.

Kara


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## Krimmyk (Dec 7, 2006)

I agree, YIKES for SURE!!!! In the year and a half I talked to TONS of breeders both in Canada and the US. Most were VERY helpful, some were just scary. Our want was VERY specific because my Dh is anal! He wanted a 2+ year old Female, reddish. I wanted a boy, not quite puppy and brownish. (cough cough...Sully) sure enough the second Dh saw Sully's pictures he was all, "there is no room for any other Bi*$es in this house, I want him!"
I am thankful for the sane people I talked too and some of those others still creep me out as they are "on the rise" in the Hav world!


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Kara, I hear a lot of people on both sides (breeders and buyers) saying that they've had their health testing, thinking people mean vet exams. I think _a lot_ of people just don't know. That's why I try to always mention the OFA health testing.

God's will, huh? I suppose she doesn't see her gyno or get mammograms either. It would be God's will if she got ill too, right?


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## JanB (Oct 26, 2007)

I had one breeder tell me she didn't do health testing because it was unnecessary and expensive, it was just a ploy all the "big" breeders came up with to push the small breeders out of business. Um...sure. Obviously we didn't pursue this avenue!

Thanks to this site I knew to check Tessa's linage through the offa.org site, plus i know by breeder will stand by me should any problems arise.


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## CinnCinn (Mar 30, 2007)

WoW! A lot of information here.

Personally, I like the fact that we can have different opinions (other than the importance of health testing, we seem to all be on that same page) and feel free to share openly. There is generally more than one "right" way to do things, and we all love our HAVANESE!!

As my momma always says - it takes two to tango. I "personally" see issue with both sides. 
I DID buy a my puppy only seeing on-line photo's. I didn't meet the breeder _or _see her home - but I checked the breeder and her dogs out intensly. Rocky's sire is Los Perritos Wee Pantaloons - so there was a lot of on-line information about Los Perritos Havanese and health testing of parents. PLUS - reading through other Havanese websites, you read other peoples opinions. I'd hate to stear people away from that option, but recommending additional outside info. is an important part of looking for a new puppy if you live long distance. Puppy buyers have homework to do.

What's GREAT about this forum - we'll be able to help educate many puppy buyers and steer them in the right direction - AWAY from breeders like we've just heard from. I'll get off my soap box now.


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I'd go nuts without the help of all the wonderful people on this board. I wish I knew about the forum before I got Gryff - I would have gotten him anyway, but I would have known even more of the right questions to ask and the things to look for.

I got Gryff from a breeder on breeders.net. I went to her house and saw all the puppies being raised in her house with their mommy. They were all so cute. They had full run of the yard, a nice ex-pen and a large crate for sleeping in. They also had another dog, a cat, and a small child living in the house. I felt very comfortable getting Gryff under those conditions.

I'd never, ever, get a pet from someone so reluctant to share information. Huge red flags there.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Ivy, that sounds so similar to my situation. I went to the breeder's house, saw the other pups that were available, and also saw Kodi's mom. They had an 18 month old at the time and another big dog. Maybe that's why Kodi likes big dogs? 

Shelby was a different story. I had the option of driving the 6 hrs to the breeder's home, or meeting her 1/2 way. We chose to meet 1/2 way. Shelby was such a happy, feisty little thing, that I was sure she came from a good place.


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Is it Kodi or Shelby who shares Birch Creek Simba lineage with Gryff?


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2007)

pizno said:


> Someone I knew got a cue little Hav from someone in Northern Wisconsin. I heard they had one more and thought it had my name all over it. I called the woman and turns out she was selling it for someone else, and they didn't do any testing, so I asked her why and she said it was 'God's Will' whether or not these puppies had problems. I think I may have posted this on here before.......I'm still trying to get over it!
> 
> Carol


Carol...I hate to hear that! What a lame excuse for not being responsible!


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Ivy, he is Shelby's grandpa.


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