# Supplements Anyone use them?



## Me&2Girls

I know we've discussed Salmon Oil as a great supplement - but what about any of the others? I've used Show Stopper for about a month when I had MeMe on Satin Balls - I just wanted the extra nutrition/coat conditioning. Reports from other users say it may contribute to stones. Not proven. Also I've been leery about anything using flax - anecdotal reports indicate there may be issues with pregnancy and whelping (this is NOT proven - use your own judgment), so I'm not a fan of Missing Link.

Anyway, just learned about Venture. It helped another dog who dropped coat in reaction to a rabies vaccine. The web site claims it's even safe and good for humans. Here are the ingredients:
*ALL NATURAL INGREDIENTS*


Sunflower seed
Pumpkin seed
Flax seed
Whey powder
Brewer's yeast
Kelp
Wild Alaskan salmon oil
 Shelled seeds are ground at low speed to prevent heat destruction of nutrients. Venture is high in Omega 3, 6 and 9 essential fatty acids, building blocks for healthy skin and coat, and superior brain function. Venture contains natural source Zinc, natural source Calcium, and natural source Vitamin E.

Here's the LINK for the site: http://www.venturesupp.com/about.htm

So what supplements are you using and like? I'm really looking to do whatever I can to regrow MeMe's coat - the poor girl is half naked and what's left is broken from rubbing on a chair.


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## Me&2Girls

Okay, this is weird - they just did the first scientific study and it looks like Phytoestrogens such as soy and flax that are commonly found in pet foods may have an effect on canine reproduction. Here's the info

Compounds From Soy Affect Brain And Reproductive Development

ScienceDaily (Aug. 1, 2008) — Two hormone-like compounds linked to the consumption of soy-based foods can cause irreversible changes in the structure of the brain, resulting in early-onset puberty and symptoms of advanced menopause in research animals, according to a new study by researchers at North Carolina State University.

The study is a breakthrough in determining how these compounds can cause reproductive health problems, as well as in providing a key building block for how to treat these problems.

The study is the first to show that the actual physical organization of a region of the brain that is important for female reproduction can be significantly altered by exposure to phytoestrogens – or plant-produced chemicals that mimic hormones – during development. Specifically, the study finds that the compounds alter the sex-specific organization of the hypothalamus – a brain region that is essential to the regulation of puberty and ovulation. The study also shows that the phytoestrogens could cause long-term effects on the female reproductive system.

While the study examined the impact of these compounds on laboratory rats, neurotoxicologist Dr. Heather Patisaul – who co-authored the study – says the affecte
d "circuitry" of the brain is similar in both rats and humans. Patisaul is an assistant professor in NC State's Department of Zoology. Her co-author is Heather Bateman, a doctoral student in the department.

Patisaul says this finding is extremely important because, while the changes in brain structure cannot be reversed, "if you understand what is broken, you may be able to treat it." Patisaul says she is in the process of evaluating the effects of these compounds on the ovaries themselves.

Patisaul says that this study is also "a step towards ascertaining the effects of phytoestrogens on developing fetuses and newborns." Patisaul adds that these phytoestrogenic compounds cross the placental barrier in humans and that, while many people are concerned about the effects of man-made compounds on human health, it is important to note that some naturally occurring substances can have similar effects.

In the study, which will be published in an upcoming issue of Neurotoxicology, the researchers exposed newborn rats to physiologically relevant doses of the phytoestrogens genistein and equol, and then looked at reproductive health markers in the rats throughout their adulthood. The neonatal stage of development in rats is comparable to the latter stages of pregnancy for humans, Patisaul says. Genistein is a phytoestrogen that is found in various plants, including soybeans and soy-based foods. Equol is a hormone-like compound that is formed when bacteria found in the digestive system metabolize another phytoestrogen. However, only approximatel
y a third of humans have the necessary bacteria to produce equol.

The study shows that both genistein and equol result in the early disruption of the rats' estrus cycle – which would be corollary to early onset of menopause in a human. The study also showed that genistein caused the early onset of puberty. The disruption of the estrus cycle could stem from problems with the brain or the ovaries, so the researchers decided to determine if the compounds had any effect on brain development or function.

Patisaul explains that the brains of both female rats and female humans have a region that regulates ovulation. "That part of the brain," Patisaul says, "is organized by hormones during development – which is the neonatal stage for rats and during gestation for humans." Patisaul says the new study shows that the female brain is "critically sensitive" to genistein and equol during this crucial stage of development – and that this may indicate that the brain is also especially sensitive during this period to all phytoestrogens and possibly other man-made chemicals, such as bisphenol-A.

Journal reference:

Bateman et al. Disrupted female reproductive physiology following neonatal exposure to phytoestrogens or estrogen specific ligands is associated with decreased gnrh activation and kisspeptin fiber density in the hypothalamus. NeuroToxicology, 2008; DOI: 10.1016/j.neuro.2008.06.008 

Adapted from materials provided by North Carolina State University.


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## DanielBMe

I will either use a mix of Organic Sea Kelp and Alfalfa Leaves and Fish Oil or Feedsentials with the raw food. Feedsentials contains the following
Carob powder, ground sunflower seed, dried parsley leaf, kelp flakes, alfalfa greens, ground almond, hulled oil rich hemp seeds, hemp seed flour, dried red and green pepper, dry celery leaf, dried blueberry, dried cranberry, dry dandelion leaf, ground pumpkin seed, powdered carrot, stinging nettle, barley grass powder, dried mint leaf, powdered rosehip, paprika, burdock root powder, garlic powder, ground walnut, ground flax seed, sesame seed, Prozyme, glucosamine, MSM, dried dill weed, coriander, anise, fennel, goat milk whey powder, powdered marshmallow root, blue Hawaii spirulina, rosemary, ascorbic acid, Primal Defense probiotic, oregano, ginger, cumin, marjoram, thyme, savory, basil, sage, cayenne, powdered yucca, turmeric, fenugreek, bilberry, vegetal silica.


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## Me&2Girls

Okay sorry guys, but I just learned about this one for hair growth - I know their other supplements are pretty good, but what do you think of this?









DogZymes Grow Hair is formulated to be fed in conjunction with DogZymes Ultimate. "Ultimate" formula contains a symbiotic balance of vitamins, minerals, trace minerals, and amino acids for Canine. DogZymes Grow Hair is used when extra length of coat is desired, if we have urgency to fill in those unsightly bald spots, or to speed up the hair growth process. DogZymes Grow Hair consists of Methionine, Biotin, and Organic poultry liver powder. Feeding directions: feed 1/8 teaspoon per 15 pounds of body weight until desired growth is achieved.


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## ama0722

While I dont think is used for growing hair, it helped put weight on my maltese and made her look a lot nicer. I have used it for about 2 years and nothing bad like kidney stones, etc.

http://www.solidgoldhealth.com/products/showproduct.php?id=36&code=591


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## Havtahava

I've used ShowStopper in the past and while others have claimed some negative results (coat burning), I had good results. However, I haven't been using it for quite a while now, maybe even a year, and I don't see much difference in the coat of my dogs, so maybe the timing was coincidence.

The Venture looks interesting. I need to sit down and read that article about flax & reproduction more thoroughly. I've heard that tie a few times, but I had not found any articles that are scientifically based until you posted this one.


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## Me&2Girls

Let me know what you think Kimberly. I first saw the "reported" FYIs a while ago in the Coton breed, and that's what first gave me the heads up on the flax based products. Didn't know that about soy products however. I think it's a fairly legitimate journal, but don't know it personally.


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## Havtahava

By the way, MeMe's coat doesn't look bad at all. I know you are seeing the difference right now, but it isn't obvious to someone who isn't around her as much. You're doing a great job with her.


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## Me&2Girls

Aw shucks thanks Kimberly. But I kid you not - she's lost at least half of it. I'd never seen her skin before when I bathed or combed her and now she looks like an advertisement for Rograine. Poor little thing.  Especially when I compare her to some of Sparky's other babies.


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## Havtahava

Well, the standard does say that you shouldn't have such a profuse coat as to obscure the natural lines of the dog. When her coat is dry, she doesn't look like she's lacking coat, so with that line from the standard and what I saw, I think she has the perfect amount of coat!


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## EstrellaVila

Lisa, MeMe's hair only looks different to people who have seen her everyweekend for the last four months!! 

Trust me she still looks good. How fast does her hair grow back on its own?

The info you provided on flaxseed and the repro for females is interesting, I have never heard of that before. Without any scientific background/etc, I don't think putting your female on a product for a short period of time would adversly affect her. The study says exposure during development, which I dont think MeMe is in that stage anymore. 

If you want to go the all natural route and avoid the 'might be bad' supplements you can always give her eggs, olive oil, fish skin (mine like rainbow trout dehydrated skins - yes it smells). The omega's will fatten her up and help her coat and you know what is in them! I give our poochies DermCaps Liquid - it has safflower oil, fish oil, Borage Seed Oil, vitamin E. The vet gave it too us to help with skin and coat. 

Just be patient with her and baby her coat all you can here on out. Don't worry it will grow back. You may want to get a bunch of satin and start covering all the dog beds in it. Condition her hair a lot, and maybe refrain from blowdrying her hair too often. Heather referred me to a Vellus product called satin creme which I use to band up Tito's hair on his face and moustache. I also band his neck and shoulders to help keep the hair from breaking. The product helps prevent breakage and is used for wrapping coats.

For shows you could also try a voluminizing shampoo to beef up the areas that are bothering you. Keep me updated!!


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## MopTop Havanese

I am so sorry she has lost so much coat, I know you are upset about it, but she still looks great!
I wish Heidi could give MeMe some of her coat.....she has plenty to spare!
I have a suppliment here called "Seacure" and I would't mind giving you some.
I used it a couple years ago when I had a male dog with a horrible broken coat. While he was on it, his coat really improved. I recently got some more, but It's very high in protein so I am nervous about using it with my bladder doggies.


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## Me&2Girls

Oh goodness everyone - thanks for being so supportive. I suppose I'm ultra sensitive because she's still got that last point to earn! Katie I will take you up on your offer of the "Seacure" - Miss MeMe wouldn't have a problem with the protein.


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## MopTop Havanese

Lisa I will trade you some Seacure for a few nights of borrowing your fancy new comb! :biggrin1:


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## Me&2Girls

Sure not a problem Katie!


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## Me&2Girls

:ear: Well Katie, I'm dying to know if you've fallen in love with that comb. I'm hoping Jester's mats just slide right out.

I do recommend to everyone that you move close to a bunch of other Havanese owners - talk about the savings by being able to swap and share. It's such fun to visit too.


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## EstrellaVila

LOL!!

You two live like six minutes away now right? Fun fun.


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## Pinkasaurus

How often would one use supplements? 
Could I simply add a tablespoon every week to my dogs raw diet? Or could I make my own supplements by giving certain foods?


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## davetgabby

hi, please feel free to start a new thread., as this is old. Suppliments are based on your dogs diet and it is totally an individual case. It's not advised to add just for the sake of adding.


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## krandall

davetgabby said:


> hi, please feel free to start a new thread., as this is old. Suppliments are based on your dogs diet and it is totally an individual case. It's not advised to add just for the sake of adding.


I agree with Dave completely. You need to know why you want/need to supplement, and do so with guidance of your veterinarian or a nutritionist.


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