# Road to Wesminster



## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Its not official, BUT Stogies check for Westminster cleared. They say if your check clears your in, but we will wait for the official word. I am doing a tad bit of celebrating tonight. So many plans to make, so many shoes to buy. 

This is the most exciting thing ever! 
Did anyone else enter?


This boy will look soooo good strutten his stuff in NYC. Think of the photography opportunities!


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!
What IS the proper fashion ettiquette for Westminster, post-win Westminster parties, morning after talk show appearances, etc, etc? It WILL also be fashion week in NYC, so all this has to be considered. Melissa, you've already been photographed in the red shoes, so you can't wear those. Get busy girlfriend. GO STOGIE!!!!!!!!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

We'll be pullin' for our Grandchildren!!!!!!


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

THANKS!!! I just talked to Jan and Noah is in. 
I knew he had to be! Also his other son YoYo, who Linda Patterson bred, is in. 
So we are doing a photoshoot of Noah and his sons in tuxes. 

Its so great. Just the experience is worth it. I think its going to be magical, and of course Im already telling Stogie he is going to take it! HAHA

As Jan said, Stogie will finally meet his Daddy! HAHA

Dawna, OF COURSE I will get some new shoes! 
And TAMI, I want Stogie to win, so NO I wont show him. 
Who will? Thats a GREAT question...hmmmmm....Im interviewing. 
It has to be the right person. 

I cant WAIT!


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## Linda P (Aug 3, 2006)

Melissa, this is starting to sound like a major party! I can't wait to see the photos of Noah with his two handsome sons Stogie and Yoyo. Donna is also thrilled and can't wait to go. She has said that she will take Yoyo in herself if she has to!


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Congratulations!! He is just Gorgeous!!!


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

I'll show him, Melissa. SNORT


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Tami...I thought you were going! Whats up with that?

Linda its going to be fun! Its so cool YoYo got in. Noah, Stogers, Sky and YoYo. We are representing Texas in a BIG way. 

Thanks WhitBmom! 


DAWNA Do I have to pay you in Designer Shoes? Snort.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Congratulations! I have watched the show previously... but for a newbie <BG> how do they decide who gets in? I just learned that Eukanuba is top 25 of each breed and 25 breed by class. Is Wesminster the same?

Amanda


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

Whoooo Hoooooo Stogie~
You bring Sexy Back to NYC baby~!
We will be rooting for you here in California~!


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

Amanda, the top 5 dogs get in automatically and then other people can enter their dogs in sort of a lottery to get in. So it's really cool that people that know each other and are in the same dog clubs got in. 
Someone else who knows MUCH more about it than I do could give you better details. (or correct me, if I'm wrong <g>)


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

Congratulations Stogie and Melissa, Yoyo and Sky and Noah and everyone else that I'm leaving off!! How exciting! I can't even imagine. Be sure to give us all the details as the show grows closer.
Best of luck to all!
Beverly


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Congratulations to everyone going to Westminster. I have already made plans to take the day off for the Hav judging. I can't wait to see and meet you all at the show. Is anyone going to mattend the Meet the Breed on Sunday before the show?


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

Oh yea! It'll be fun to meet someone from the forum!


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Tami, your forgetting Im an arctic girl! Of course I have snow boots! 
I have Fendi ones also...hehe. 

I hope it does snow.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

*Snow?*

Today it was in the 60's in New York, but next week it's supposed to drop down to the 40's. It's anybody's guess what Feb. will be like.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Very Cold!! Usually in the 20's - 30's. What are the dates of the show?


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Usually it's REALLY cold in February - 20'S or teens, but a few years ago we had springlike weather. Best to check the Farmer's Almanac and the Weather Channel before you come to NY.  Good luck - hope I get to meet you there.


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Tami, 
Keep a coat on your list. Even if its warm one day it could drastically change. I hope its cold! 

I got the GOLD envelope in the mail today, YEAAAAAAA!


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

There are SOOOO many Starbucks in NY its not even funny. I can not live with out my starbucks. 

The gold envelope was not even shiny. It was just gold. I think they should upgrade to shiny gold ones. Ill take a photo anyhow, haha.


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

Why would they not have shiny gold? Silly Westminsters.
What's a starbucks? lol


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

You know, it is an addiction. I was telling someone, I can buy the Starbucks coffee and make my own, but its not the same. I like going TO Starbucks. 
I got excited when they brought out the red cups for the holidays, I like the music they play... Its my happy place.


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

Melissa, I've been thinking about your shoe offer. For big shows like Westminster, I usually only accept platinum and diamonds, BUT this time, for you, I'll make an exception. Chanel (only Cambon limited edition flats, please), Manolo B., Jimmy Choo, Gucci (boots), Fendi (pink pony snow boots). If you need a bigger list, just let me know. LOL
Dawna


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## northstarhavs (Aug 2, 2006)

*Who's your daddy?????*

*
Noah is so proud of his kids. Along with all the praise for the dogs, let's give credit to the fabulous owners who have them. The road to Westminster was paved with proper care and handling of these guys. It is not easy, it is work! People ask me why I do what I do. This is why and I hope all of you exhibitors take the bad WITH the good.
We are so proud of Noah. I understand he stood in that huge Eukanuba ring and wagged his tail the whole time. He had dogs put side by side with him and he and Bill never faultered. Noah has the best temperament and is so loving. Havanese tend to be that way. He had only been with Bill for about three weeks. So there he stood, loving and trying to please that stranger on the other end of the lead. Actually, he had three people on him that one time in the ring. First a worker of Bill's, then Taffe, then Bill. I love Havanese and I love Noah!
The road to Westminstr? Stay tuned.....
Hugs,
Jan*


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Looks like a total of 38 Havanese made it in.


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

Hi 
Yeah !!. Go Havanese ..
They are finally getting the recognition they deserve .. 
Hopefully they will actua;lly show one . every time it is the havanese turn to be on camera they go to Commercial .. They always manage to show the Maltese. I guess it is that long flowing hair ..
HAve a great time .. Yep you will not be deprived of your Starbucks in New York or San Francisco either .


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

This is very exciting!! Congrats to all that got invited to be a part of Westminster!! 

Does anyone know the network that will be showing this? What day will it be shown on t.v.? I have GOT to watch!


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

I saw the commercials for it the other day. I cant remember what station, maybe TNT. 

I just applied for a press pass so hopefully I can get some shots for the Hotline and for the forum. Also its a great story with Noah and two of his sons being in there. Im going to post photos and update here daily while we are out there. I might can post the winners right from my cell phone to here. 

 Its getting SO close!


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

Hi 

WEstminister is Feb 14th and Feb 15th and it is on the USA channel . i do not know the time but I am sure T/V Guide will let you know ..
Congratulations everyone .. What fun ..
Everyone goes all out for this one .


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

In NY it airs on the USA network live Mon and Tues 8-11pm


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## JodiM (Dec 28, 2006)

I bet you're excited.

I think doing a story on Noah and his 2 sons will be fantastic. 

Princess is getting really excited about watching Stogie on tv


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## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

Last year the Westminster Web site was very fast at posting the results. In Canada I knew who would win before it was on tv here. Still great to watch the Best of the Best.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Of course the channels it is on aren't ones I get, even with my satellite dish! 

Debbie, any idea what Cdn. channels might cover this? I'm thinking 'Life' might show it... 

Thanks for the dates! I'm off to write that in my agenda! 

marj


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## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

I think I watched it on TSN but I Can't find it on their web site. I know it aired the weekend after the show. Debbie


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## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

More info on Westminster on Canadian TV Animal Planet or Discovery HD Feb 12 & Feb 13 8pm to 11pm EST. I don't know if I get these on Express Vu. I hope so.

Debbie


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Thanks, Debbie! I'll make a note of it. I sure hope I get a chance to see it too.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Wetminster website shows breed judging videos about 3hrs after judging is final. Havs are being judged at 9:30 or 9:45 am, so the video should be up by early afternoon.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Pam is getting her arm twisted to go including some offers that are too good to refuse. Any ideas about where she can find a place to stay this late???


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

I'm so excited - I am going to Westminster on Monday to see the Hav judging. Hope I can get to meet some of you there. Good luck, everyone!


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

I have never been to a dog show. Researching the havanese and looking up breeders and so on has really peaked my interest. I am looking forward to going to a local conformation show now!!


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

Good luck to all of you going to Westminster. Have a safe trip and go Havanese!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Kori Burkhead (Aug 9, 2006)

Make me proud Stogers!  I love you.....you dog you!  (wait.....don't tell him he is a dog, he still doesn't know yet!


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

This might be old news to everyone, but I saw an ad on USA network they'll have coverage of Wesminster on Feb. 12&13 at 7 Eastern,8 Central. Does anyone know, do they show coverage of the entire show on the Wesminster website?

Beverly


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

I am thinking they are not able to show the whole show on USA channel - so I am hoping some of you that are so lucky to be there, will get lots of pictures, we are excited to see all Havanese dogs there. Good Luck to all of you in the show! We will be watching!


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

You can watch the breed judging online through the Westminster kennel club web site 2 hours after the judging is completed. The only parts on TV will be the groups and BIS. The toy group will be shown live on USA network on Monday night.


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

don't forget to watch tonight in US - USA channel at 8-11pm monday and tuesday evening. Does anyone know what time the Havanese dogs might be on?


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## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

Canadian's can watch it live for the first time on Animal Plant. 8:00pm EST


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

THE WESTMINTER WEBSITE JUST PRINTED THE RESULTS OF HAVANESE BEST OF BREED


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

dboudreau said:


> Canadian's can watch it live for the first time on Animal Plant. 8:00pm EST


WAaaaaaaa!!!!!! I don't think we have that channel! Oh man, I am soooooooooo sad about not seeing any of the show. I am on the Westminster website and I saw this:

*Ch Fuzzy Farm Devil Made Me Do It
Breed: Havanese
Sex: Dog
AKC: TP 31329005
Date of Birth: September 21, 2002
Breeder: Steve Lawrence & Alice Lawrence & Judith Jones
Sire: Ch Starkette Pride Of Wincroft
Dam: Ch Namaskar Angel Of Fuzzy Farm
Owner: Steve Lawrence & Alice Lawrence*

www.westminsterkennelclub.org/2007/photos/breed/TP31329005.html

This Havanese is corded! Pretty neat!

marj


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I saw the winner's photo.He/She is so cute in those cords!


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## vfeldman (Jan 26, 2007)

USA Network's broadcast schedule for the 131th Westminster Kennel Club Saw this on another blog...somewhere google sent me...maybe it helps some of the Canadian viewers! 

Vicki



Dog Show will be as follows: 

OPENING NIGHT: Monday, February 12, 8-11PM ET (LIVE on the East Coast!) 

Best of Group Competitions: Working | Terrier | Toy | Non-Sporting

CLOSING NIGHT: Tuesday, February 13, 8-11PM ET (LIVE on the East Coast!) 

Best of Group Competitions: Sporting | Hound | Herding | Best in Show Judging

Canadian Broadcast Details: Simulcast LIVE on Animal Planet and Discovery HD Monday, Feb. 12 and Tuesday, Feb. 13, 8-11PM ET/ 9-12 Midnight PT 

Repeat broadcast to air on OLN Feb. 18 and 19 from 7-10PM ET /9-12 Midnight PT.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Melissa, Stogies pics don't do him justice. He is more beautiful in person. I got lucky and was able to secure a spot right behind the judges table today. I had a blast! The dogs were so great, they looked like they were having such a good time. 
I didn't agree with the judges pick for BOB (because I personally did not have a good experience with the owner). But I could never be a judge, because I think they were all exceptional.


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## havahav (Jan 19, 2007)

I am so jealous! You were there today! I am at home waiting for the Breed Judging video. I have watched a few and I think the videos are done a lot better this year than last year.

Can't wait to see the HAVS! 

Paula


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Haven't been able to het the Hav video running yet. Has anyone had any luck with it? All I get is the Pedigree commercial.


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## vfeldman (Jan 26, 2007)

That is all I saw too. Went back a few years and watched another one though!


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## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

Still no luck for me.  I think too many of us are trying!


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

I cannot get the Hav video either. I know the Pedigree one by heart. UGH.


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## DAJsMom (Oct 27, 2006)

It's working now!


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Glad it's working, off to watch!!!


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## JodiM (Dec 28, 2006)

They picked a corded??? 

Stogie is soooo cute~ He should have been the one representing toy breed for the Havanese.


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

I am not able to watch the breeder judging video, is there a trick to it?


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

When you get to the purina commercial go to the right & pick a clip of the havanese. You just move your arrow to the bottom of the list & it moves. The havanese best of breed will come on after the commerical. It is a long clip so be prepared. Absolutely gorgeous dogs!!!! Stogie shoulda won!!!


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## Olliesmom (Sep 29, 2006)

Well I have to say I was not impressed with the Havanese Best of Breed - and don't even get me started on the poodle - and I like poodles! I had told so many people to watch for the Havanese and they were not impressed and thought all havs looked like that - don't gey me wrong - he was cute but look at all those gorgeous havs that are on the video....i was a bit dumbfounded....


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

I was also less than impressed with the best of breed Havanese....putting it mildly. After watching the video again, I am just astonished that they picked the corded one when most of the other ones looked so much better. Ahh, the politics of showing....

As far as the poodle winning, I thought he was gorgeous - rediculous cut and all. I don't know why the AKC insists on showing poodles in the continental clip, tradition I guess. But if one can get past the cut, the dog was stunning....yeah, I love poodles, especially standards.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Fantastic video! Oh, I am having so much fun watching it.... saw it 3 times already. lol All the havs look amazing!!! I could never choose, I don't think.

What I'd love to know is if I'm right about which one is Stogie... is Stogie's handler wearing a denim colored blazer? Or is it the one with a jewel-tone blazer? I'm probably wrong on both counts! lol What about Goldie? Which cutie is she?

I'll bet everyone had a great time, other than working very hard, that is.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

I want to jump in here and say, I would bet the owner and breeder of the BOB winner yesterday would be hurt by some of the comments made here. We don't know what is under those cords, but the judge obviously felt it was the best one on that particular day. While I wouldn't choose to cord my dogs, it is a look that some like. The owners of yesterday winner also are in Puli's which is another corded breed. Cording a dog is not easy and takes lot's of patience and grooming isn't easy either. Alice and Steve Lawerence know how to do it better then most since they have been doing it for years. 

Sometimes our opinions about someone's show dog, is best left unsaid. It would hurt me if one of my dogs was being discussed here like what some have said about the Westminster BOB winner.


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## Olliesmom (Sep 29, 2006)

Point well made! - I think most posts were based on just the limited visual that we saw and the comparison to what most people seem to be comfortable with in the breed. As I said on another posting the link for AOL was great and you could see that Sweet Pea was a cute happy dog under that "mop"! Heck AOL even called it "unusual" and a "mop"...I am sure Sweet Pea is adorable as they all are - don't think anyone was judging the dog - just the cording which most are not fond of and like you said -most don't have the time to do it! Most of us here have young dogs and are newbies when it comes to this - so we will learn - just like our puppies!!!


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## Olliesmom (Sep 29, 2006)

Here is the link I spoke about and my comment!

Thanks for the link - altho I still don't like the look it is a much better pix then what we saw during the show- and you can see how cute he is under that moptop!!

http://pets.aol.com/galleries/westminster-unusual-dogs


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Kathy, the comments are not meant to be mean. They are just our opinions. Some like coffee and others like tea. If you are putting your dog out there to be judged, you better have a tough skin. And Alice probably couldn't care less. Her dog won BOB no matter what we think.


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Hi Kathy,

I am sorry that you found the comments offensive. I don't think any of us that expressed negative opinion about the winning BOB dog meant to hurt the dog or the breeder. After all these are just opinion and we are entitled to like or dislike the dog regardless of what the judges think.


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## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

Cords are all the style the last two days.  The owners of the Hav. also won BOB with their Puli. Ch FuzzyFarm the Music Man.  They must be on cloud Nine. Congratulations to everyone. Brushed and Corded.


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

They are all wonderful. They are Havs!!!! I have to admit I am a little prejudice to a little fellow from Dallas named Stogie.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Juliav,
I was not offended, just wanted to point out that we never know who might be reading posts and some might find them rude. 

We all are allowed to have opinions, it is just sometimes the way those opinions are expressed that we need to be careful about. I know, I have been quilty of it myself. Written word doesn't show infliction of voice or facial expressions, so at times hard to "read", if you know what I mean. 

While I prefer the long, silky coat on my dogs and show them that way, I am sure there are some that think my dogs are not nice. That is fine, but sometimes expressing those thoughts isn't healthy. For example, would you be willing to say to the owner's face, "I don't like your dog, those cords/coat/long hair is awful?"


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Hi Kathy,

Point taken.  I had quite a few people tell me that don't like poodles because of their really curly hair, long noses and funny cuts. Doesn't bother me cause that's the reason I love them. I guess I just don't get my feeling hurt easily.


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

Well, hope our friends have a safe trip home from Westminster. I think NY is getting what we have in Northeast PA. Snow, sleet and freezing rain. I bet some of them will be staying longer in NY then expected. Safe home.....


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Kathy, good point! I agree though that the comments were not meant to hurt anyones feelings. I understand that the judging has a lot more to do with size & structure of the dog, than the looks. My problem is just that I am kinda a neat freak when it comes to my guys hair and cording just looks too unruly for me,: it would drive me crazy - I would feel like I have to fix it all the time.


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

I just wanted to get some opinions on this - I have never watched all of the Westminster dog show before, like I did this year. But what I thought was that it represented some breeds alot better than others, why is that? 

When the Havanese dog was up they didn't say anything about the good personality, temparment, this breed has like they did about some of the other breeds. Some people watch this show to see what might be a good dog for them. 

I just found the Havanese breed myself, and he has brought me and my family, friends so much happiness, everyone just loves him. So I think it would be great to let other people know what a great dog this it. 

I just didn't see that, they said they were a popular dog, but not why they were popular. 

I hope I don't offend anyone, but I also don't think the corded dog BOB represented the breed the best, some might look at the hair and say wow, to much. 

I am totally new to this dog stuff, so maybe you guys can explain this to me. I was really looking forward to the Westminster dog show this year, and I feel disappointed on how the Havanese dog was represented in the show that was on tv time.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Lynn, I agree with your comments.  They just seem to gloss over the Havs. Maybe as a group, we need to email the Westminster people about this? If we send them our opinions, maybe they can re-evaluate their commentary about "our dogs". 

Also, I agree about ther BOB winner. Since most Havs do not have this type of coat, I thnk it does not represent the breed well. If I would have seen this type of coat on my first Hav, I probably wouldnt have looked further. But, that's just my taste.  

I congratulate every owner/handler/breeder who made it to Westminster, no matter what coat they were wearing. They were beautiful dogs.


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## DAJsMom (Oct 27, 2006)

I finally watched the entire video, and my main thought is, what a beautiful, fun-looking bunch of havanese! I just love the variety in the coats and colors. I don't really like the corded look, but I'm sure the champ is a very nice dog to win best of breed at Westminster. Congratulations to all!


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Thank you for your comment about the corded hav's.I feel bad that some hav owners are all against this westminster winner. It is a shame because some corded havs are just adorable in the photos I have seen.I think this owner should be proud as the judge thought he/she was the best on this day.To each his own,though I agree they were all winners...... What a wonderful feeling it must be to have any dog there at this wonderful show.I'm thrilled with my hav and he just lays here looking at me!


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

I loved in the video how they all "pranced" around, as if they are just happy to be alive!! They have such great dispositions.


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Hey Im back! I just love yall for being on Stogies side. 
He looked great out there, and he was in good company! SO many pretty dogs. I think I will start a new thread with photos. 

I didnt see the BOB dog too close, because I couldnt stop watching Stogie. 
However, one thing someone said to me at the show....

With all the coat its very easy for owners to fluff here and there to make parts of their dogs look better. With the cords, you cant hide his outline much. So he must have been a very nice dog to get placed by the judge. 
At least I hope so


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

You know I wondered about that myself.It looked like some dogs were "overly"fluffed up,and I just would swear ,at least in that video at the westminster site,some havs were cut.It just looked like someone cut the top-knot on one of the black havs.Then a parti colored one had either the finest coat or it was glued down! The back end hair never moved,and the only part of his "whiskers"that did was the ends,which made him look wierd.Actually he looked like a colored maltese to me and I know there isn't such a thing! Maybe it was the angle we were seeing in the video,but it was definitely eye-opening.Seems like the top-lines were level on alot of these dogs too.Is that what you saw too?I have heard alot of "skuttle-butt"about this and just wonder why they were allowed(if true)as this doesn't fit the breed standard.Why are they allowed to do anything to a hav really,other than bathe and brush?Natural.......what happened to natural?


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Julie, I think I saw the same thing you did. There was one that had longer white hair around the mouth & when he walked, the white whiskers flopped up and down but nothing else moved. I though I saw it wrong & went thru the vidoe again. Maybe it is just the way that havs hair grows?


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## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

The dogs entered in Westminster are all champions. Which means, enough judges thought these dog were correct in movement and coat type, even if they aren't. Because the judge put up those dogs, some breeders think it is correct and breed these dogs, and handlers trim and groom to what they think is correct. 
Newbies like most of us don't always understand the standard and look to the ring and see the dogs who win and think they are correct in Type. It is a down hill side from there. Judges need to be educated to what a Hav should look like. 
I have watched it happen to the German Shepherd. If you look at picture of a German Shepherd 40-50 years ago and a picture today, they look like a different breed. I really hope this doesn't happen to the Havanese. One thing I love about the breed is the "wash and wear" look. And that wonderful "flash of Pad" in their gait. That is how I show mine. I hope this makes soom sense.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

There actually is a great deal of effort being made in educating judges. The problem with judges who don't know the standard is that those judges who were already qualified to judge the toy group are not required to attend any breed seminars or be mentored for any new breeds entering the group. The Havanese are still a relatively new breed in the toy group and most of the older judges will not "lower" themselves to attend a seminar.

Any new judges who are just working on getting the qualifications to judge breeds are required to attend seminars and have ringside mentoring. These judges aren't even in the ring judging yet.

Of course there are some of the judges who have been judging for a long time who have made an effort to learn the breed-Jean Fournier comes to mind. I heard Annie Clark come out of the ring in Raleigh after judging the Havanese and say, "I just don't understand this breed." It doesn't make it any easier for them when there are so many in the ring who lack even the critical elements of breed type. A lot of judges, who were themselves professional handlers before they became judges, will put up the handlers and then breeders who don't know any better will start breeding what the judge puts up.

We're working on it and things will get better.

If you're going to show, get a copy of the Breed Standard and a copy of the Illustrated Study Guide and learn it.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

*"I just found the Havanese breed myself, and he has brought me and my family, friends so much happiness, everyone just loves him. So I think it would be great to let other people know what a great dog this it. "*

*"They just seem to gloss over the Havs. Maybe as a group, we need to email the Westminster people about this? If we send them our opinions, maybe they can re-evaluate their commentary about "our dogs". "*

*** No, no NO!! Don't you get it? If we keep telling people out there just how great our Havs are, they will all come swarming to the breeders and demand getting one for themselves. I'm selfish - I want the beauty, joy and fun of owning a Havanese to be mine, and mine alone. hehehe  Let's keep this little secret to ourselves for a while... let's fully enjoy that our dogs are absolute gems and perfect for us in every way before letting the masses in on it. No?

LOL

O.k.... o.k........ 

On a more serious note, though, I agree it's a shame they didn't talk about the Havs' personalities, their joyfulness and runlikehell and clownish games. 
I do, however, worry about what the breed might suffer from becoming more 'popular' and accessible. We already see 'teacup' varieties, mixes with other breeds and sold as 'designer' Havs as well as being bought as an accessory - a la Paris Hilton's Chihuahua.... all to the detriment of the breed. Good grief!

Do we want to keep 'our secret' all hush-hush or let the whole world know the wonders of the Havanese? I don't know!!


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

There is no way to stop people from learning about our great breed because, well they are so great... And think..if you never found out about it, wouldnt you be sad? We just have to try and educate people. Thats the key. 

I guess Annie Clark learned about the breed...she is the one who gave Stogie his Championship.  Very smart lady!  They did a moment of silence for her at the beginning of the Toy group and it was very moving.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Yes, she did learn. She put some effort into it when she realized that she couldn't figure it out in the ring. Pictures taken with Annie Clark are prized possessions. She won Best in Show at WKC in 1956, 59, and 61. She judged Best in Show there in the '70s.

I heard from some people who had shown to the Westminster judge before and got "yelled at" for brushing the dog on the table. It was like to him that they shouldn't be brushed at all. This is second hand info so I'm not claiming to know specifics. I think anyone with a brush in their hand in the ring was SOL under this judge.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Yeah, this breed is no little secret anymore. Puppymills are in full swing as are the rescues. We were just about to have a good handle on health problems when they went mainstream into AKC.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I guess I didn't word that too clearly. Before Havanese were accepted by AKC they were considered a rare breed. By "mainstream" I meant that many more people saw them once they started showing in the big shows and ever since then the demand has been more than the supply. Puppymills are filling the demand by breeding anything they can get their hands on with plumbing and papers and will sell them to anyone with the purchase price. Somebody will buy the puppies regardless of what's behind them.


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

Thanks for explaining that to me. I now know that puppymills are bad, and not good for the breed.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

You know this "overbreeding"worries me in the havanese and I'm not even a breeder.My first and only hav you can see posted here.I have never bred a dog in my life,but I can see a huge variety of different looking dogs just in the video from Westminster.Is the goal to hurry up and take a young pup get points or however that works,and then call him a champion?That is my perception from a pet-owner perspective.Then what?You can breed for a higher priced pup or what?I'm glad I got my pup as quickly as I could before they are over-bred without the personality that drew me to the breed in the first place.It is really,really sad. For some reason,I think of the labs.......they are a dime a dozen here and you just never know exactly what you're gonna get.Over-bred,inner-bred,etc.In this area,they are overbreeding shih-tsu's too.They're not cheap,but you could get one 5 lbs. or one 19+.Before long they'll probably come up with a new  hybrid mutt........ready for a giggle? 
Hav-A-****(shih) 
Just a few thoughts I've had.........


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

Hi 
When I got Asta almost 5 years ago now not that many people had heard of Havanese . 
Barbara Walters was the one who introduced her dog on TV . The one she talks to but now she says she does not talk to her . Hmmn .
Anyway off the topic . As I said these dogs were not easy to find I found a breeder in Arizona . She referred me to another first time home breeder - it was her first litter and she had 5 pups . The dogs were great but the breeder missed the mark at times . The dogs were home raised and that was good . She was a school teacher and unfortunately the pups were not socialized and handle as much as they should have been . She did not know how to eveluate the dogs that well but fortunately she found someone to help her and they did a great job . She did very little followup with the dogs . I think it was a one time thing..
Asta had a breeding flaw with his teeth . We had no problem with it - we loved him and thought he was perfect . Temperment wise he was perfect . he loved everyone and he was great with kids. He was an amazing little dog and i will never forget him.. 
Now I am hearing all kinds of things about the breed that were never mentioned before . I did know potty training has never been a strong point with this breed and it ican be challenging . 
From what I saw on T/v and the dog shows the Havanese and Maltese never seemed to get a fair chance . Most of the time they were passed over and never shown on camera. I waited and waited one year and even though the breed was mentioned - off they went to a commercial and we never did see it judged .
Twice I saw a corded dog a then a corded dog won .It looks like the AKC wants to make them into something it is not . A Puli maybe 
Do not get me wrong - I know people cord the dogs and that is a choice but I really question if it shows the dogs at its best .You can hardly see its eyes and their wonderful movement 
Anyway the AkC does not recognoze the Coton and it seems like at times it does play its favorites and cotton to the stars .. and their dogs too


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

You know,I don't believe the AKC is trying to make them into something their not.The Havanese will never be a puli.The only similarities you are seeing is in the cording.It is perfectly acceptable to have a corded coat in the havanese breed.Same as a brushed out coat.If people do not want to see the cords in the breed,then they should change the standards set forth for the breed standard.A bigger issue I would think then the cords is how they are showing the ones in full coat...trim here,trim there,puffy topknots,ironed coats,etc.If they followed some sort of standard,the judges I would think would have a better chance of picking the breed standard.Then the biggest concern,outside of showing,is how some are trying to breed the size down.How can you have a healthy hav that weighs 3-5lbs.?They sell them as mini's or teacups....it's sad...so very sad..... I think if you want a pet that small,you should consider a gerbil or a guinea pig.


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

I could not agree with you more Julie!


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

I agree with you on this too. To me a standard breed is just that this is what this breed is suppost to be.Isnt this what we want in our breed a standard with no health problems. I know with the chinese crested they have the hairless and the powder puff I have had them both and when you breed them you can have both types in the same lilter. Is it the same way with the corded and standard ? I have never understood why some one would want to down size a animal. The true "BREEDERS" want to improve the breed.The others only seem that they want to bring health problems to the breed . Its like the commeral out here with the little kids Mommy can I have diabeties all the negitive things all these kids want I just love that commeral its no different with animals .Make me tiny for I can have stunts, or heart falure ,seziers ect kidney problems .A healthly dog is a Happy dog!!!!And that is a standard.Maybe its just me who knows .. I guess it takes all kinds of people if you want a small dog then buy a standard small dog duhhhhh


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

With all the discussion Westminster has caused this year, and breeding in Havs in general, I have a question.
How does someone become a breeder. I am getting so frustrated by all the bull I have been hearing lately about bad breeders, that I would like to know more about breeding. Where does a person start?


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

The best place to start is to learn the Havanese Standard. You can find it online at havanese.org or AKC.org, and you can also find it printed in the book _The Havanese_ by Diane Klumb.

If you can find a good breeder who is local to you, even better.

That's just the tip of the iceburg. I'm still learning all the time.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Susan,
No,the havanese isn't born corded or not corded.I know what you are saying with chinese crested,being hairless or powder puff.My husband loves those!They are cute!A corded hav is just how the owner has decided to keep the coat.Any hav for the most part,can be corded,though they say certain types of coats are easier to cord then others.It really is just organized and seperated matts.It's a cute look on some,with pros and cons,just like keeping them brushed out in full coat.It's my understanding that of course there is no brushing out,which may be easier for some to take care of,but there is no changing your mind. It must be all cut off.You can not brush out cords.Then it takes a long time to dry,and they must be kept dry or they can mold/mildew.The cords just keep growing out in length,and can be trimmed on the ends.They don't unravel.I've read alot about cording,but so far,would be afraid to actually do it.They also do not hurt the dog as they stay 1/4th-1/2 inch away from the skin,however this gives you the idea that a change in mind would result in a very short clip of your dogs coat...all 1/2" long.


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

Juile Thank you so much for clearing up what I was thinking!!!!! I was thinking that was the way the hair grew! I am new to the breed so I do have a lot to learn. Now I am really confuse haha but that is ok It is all about the breed and as time gos by I hope to learn more and more . And this is why I do not plan on becoming a breeder any time soon since I have so much to learn. I have learn about breeding from my parents that where in there day a respectible breeder. So I go by that.Basicly the do and donts. The genetic parts And they had great Champions I watch as a child all the conformation shows agility and ob. shows. . They where very careful who they breed too if there was one tiny faul then they would not breed to that dog, so again thank you Im so glad you told me this Susan


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Hi, Kim
I have the other Havanese book, but have also read the Diane Klumb book. I am somewhat familiar with the standard and I have two Havs. What I wanted to know is where you start with acquiring breeding dogs, etc. Mine are just pets. 

Just so you know, this is not something I just want to jump into. If I did, it would have been easy. The breeder of my female forgot to fill in the box on the AKC form for limited registration. I could have just let it go, and I would have been able to breed her and register her litters. However, I know she is not 100% up to the standard, so I filled in the box.

If I do decide this is something I might want to do (I know itis a lot of work), I would only want to do it the right way.

Thanks for your input.
Michele


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Michele, I am guessing you are responding to me. I prefer going by Kimberly though.  

I've been learning about Havanese for 7+ years and I have to keep going back to the standard. That's the best way to keep your focus. When you get really familiar with all the points of the standard (something like 40 points are listed in there), then you want to go over your two and see where they conform and where they deviate from the standard. 

Where do you live? 

If you can find someone near you who can teach you to go over other dogs, then you can start evalating the points that are important in the structure.

With time, hopefully, you can research enough to recognize a good breeder/mentor and get a good dog from them for showing & breeding. When you can recognize the strengths and weaknesses of your dog, then you can start evaluating other stock that will complement them in breeding choices. Some of it is guesswork, but EDUCATED guesswork is the best way. Learn what you can about canine genetics, and attend seminars on breeding to help you too.

Does that help any? 

If you can attend any local shows, maybe there would be a breeder or show person who would help you go over these points in a physical/tanglible way. Getting my hands on a dog at first was such a big help in understanding what I should be trying to see.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Kimberly,
Thank you so much for the info. I do attend some local shows here on Long Island, and have just joined the Greater NY Hav club. The only drawback is that they hold meetings in Manhattan and I have not been able to attend one yet. But I will do all research needed in the meantime. Like I said, am in no hurry, and not even sure if I want to breed. I am just sick of hearing about the bad breeders out there.

I think when you have a dog that you buy at pet quality, you can spot what separates them from a show dog. Mine aren't deformed or anything, but I could not show them. However, my Kodi has a brother who is shown. 

Thanks again,  
Michele


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I just have to put my two cents in here....for what it's worth......
I don't think someone should start breeding dogs because they feel there are bad breeders out there.Especially since it takes years and years and years to establish your line,do the proper testing,etc...and I mean ALL the testing.Everyone is passionate on this site about the havanese(me too!)but I have NO desire to turn to breeding.I'm not exactly saying someone shouldn't,but I think you need to do a TON of homework on this before you jump into it.I think the real answer is to quit buying your puppies from bad breeders and the only way to do this is through education on the breed...getting the word out.The bad breeders WILL go away if they have no buyers.Let's face it,they are in it for the money. Nothing else.Having more breeders jump on board isn't going to help!There are always going to be people out there breeding less then quality dogs,in every breed,not just the havs.It's kind of like a cycle...remember when mini vans were really popular and everyone ran out to buy one?Now,here anyway,the last few years,it's SUVS.Same with pets...Paris walks around with this teeny "pocket-size"dog and everyone wants to have one.The havs are like a new discovery,growing in popularity,when the new wears off,there will probably be alot in shelters,etc.It's sad,but that seems to be how the world works.If anyone new decides to start breeding the havs,that's up to them,but please think it through first,and do it ALL right...just because a person has a male and a female doesn't mean they should breed it.The best of the best is the only ones that should and could further the havanese breed.
Thanks for reading.......


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Julie,
First of all, this is not something I would just "jump into". I don't know sqaut about breeding, even though I have bred a few of my poodles, but that was eons ago.

And as far as the bad breeders go, I did my research, even went to shows and met the breeder (and, by the way, she shows her dogs at Westminster). Due to my experience with her, it turned me off to the breeders who think they are better then everyone. It could have just been a miscommunication, but I felt mislead.

I just *LOVE* this breed and think it might be something I would want to do in the future. Right now I couldn't even think of breeding, because my business takes too much of our time. But, maybe in 5-8 yrs, when we retire, it might be something to consider. It's just a thought right now.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Didn't mean to step on your toes or anything...relax...I was just stating my opinion. If you decide now or anytime in the future to become a breeder,that's your business.I read this entire thread,not just yours...ok? 
I'm happy with my dog too.I read alot,did alot of research,etc.He is a pet,because we choose to neuter him.He came from 2 reputable breeders,one just showed at Westminster.Quincy's brother has his championship already.There is a long line of Champions on both his sides,but this doesn't make him more or less than just our pet.We love him and that's all that matters. I agree that some,in my case,of the breeders have this "big I,little you"attitude,that quite frankly turns a person off.I have one that was great,one just aweful.I'm glad I could reach out to other breeders and owners and get help with questions/issues.
Sorry if I upset you......
Julie


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

I think if you want to breed you just have to do your homework. Kimberly gave the right advise. Try to hook up with a breeder and they may mentor you. It is a lot of work and I give anyone credit who does it. Wow!!!! (Well not everyone- only good breeders)

I don't think attitude comes from just breeders of Havanese but all breeders across the board. When I was looking at different breeds and emailing people some were like "No way, you work, you cannot have a dog." Now, I don't think a dog should be cooped up for 10 hours. But people do have to work. There are other options.........

I am a big believer is QUALITY time. Even with my kids, I did work but was lucky to have grandparents who helped. But QUALITY of time is everything. Some people can be home all day with pets (or kids) and ignore them and not take care of them. Quality, Quality, Quality is the key........

OK. Now I am off the beaten path. Bottom line is if this is what you want to do, go for it. It will just take some time but it will be worth it.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

irnfit said:


> With all the discussion Westminster has caused this year, and breeding in Havs in general, I have a question.
> How does someone become a breeder. I am getting so frustrated by all the bull I have been hearing lately about bad breeders, that I would like to know more about breeding. Where does a person start?


Someone doesn't "become" a breeder. They have a passion for dogs, the breed, genetics, showing and more. It is not something that should be decided based on an bad experience.

It is a lot of work, but one that I LOVE!!!!! Finding a breeder that you trust and that trust's you, is the first step. A breeder that will mentor you. Join an all breed club or local Havanese club. Read pedigree's, attend seminars, come to the Havanese National Specialty, buy books, and ask a lot of questions. Start slow, otherwise you could end up with a bad line, unhealthy dogs and lot's of other issues I am sure you want to avoid.


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

Kathy, good advise. Is it true that it costs a lot of money too? You have to have finances to make sure you get proper health care, shots, etc. People have told me,"To be a good breeder is not a money making business because of the cost. It is for the passion of the breed."

I bow down to all good breeders on this forum and of course my breeder.   It is a lot of work, time and energy, and research. I could and would never do it. I don't have the energy to take a shower some mornings. HE. HE. Only kidding..... But it is a lot of work. I am glad some people do it because I am soon to be getting a little bundle.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Just as in breeding horses, the way to make a small fortune breeding dogs is to start with a large one.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Julie, I wasn't offended. I just feel that everyone is misreading my intentions. As stated, I love this breed and IF I did decide to breed, it would only be to the standard. I only want to see this breed improve. It also wouldn't be a snap judgement. I would do my research, I already belong to a local club, and I attend as many shows as possible. I even took the day off work and went to Westminster just to watch the Hav judging. 

The breeder I got Kodi from is just a warm, genuine person. She cares about the puppies and Kodi come from good lines. Shelby also has some good dogs in her background, but the breeder is not the same personality as Kodi's. She's not a bad person. She just doesn't care once she got the $$$$

I do appreciate all the input, it's the only way to learn. And we are all on this forum for the same reason - because we love Havanese.
Michele


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Probably the best way to learn about the breed is to attend Regional and the National Specialties. 

We have people come from all over the country to the spring Blue Ridge Specialty. We have seminars and lots of dogs that people are glad for those interested to put your hands on. Often some of the same seminars that will be presented at the National will be seen first there. You really do have to have your hands on a lot of different dogs before the conformation can be understood.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Michelle,
Happy your not upset 
I think all of us on here do want what is best for the breed 
I have a special needs child that we got Quincy for.I'm so glad he has the true hav personality!We were alittle worried,but all I had read was right!He has been remarkable for and with my little boy.From stroking his fur,my little boy has lost some of the tone in his fingers and is now able to actually "pincher-grip" and he has just started to be able to color...the very thing most parents take for granted(the little,everyday things).Our little boy(now 6)is our miracle,followed closely behind by our Quincy.I am just a pet owner,but I feel very passionate about the breed,as I'm sure you do to, and want to help if I can,encourage who I can.This breed really should be protected.I do have strong opinions,but I really wasn't trying to attack you,or hurt your feelings,I was just passionate about my feelings....


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Thanks, Tom. Definetly can't get to Nationals, but the Blue Ridge show might work. I live on Long Island, so for me, travelling there is a little easier than to Denver.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Julie,
So glad to hear about Quincy and your little boy. They are the best dogs with kids. I own a gym, and we have a childcare center. When my dogs hear the kids, they whine until I bring them there to play with them. It's just a wonderful thing to watch them interact with the children. Hope your boy continues to improve. My cousin has 2 Autistic children, so I know how difficult this can be for a parent. I bet Quincy is like therapy for you because of the joy he brings you and your son.
Michele


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Michele, 
Oh yes...he is a treat. Quince has just been remarkable!I don't know about you,but have you ever read so much about something,that you just think it's too good to be true?That's how it was with finding the havanese,and then Quince.We wanted a small second dog,because Vinnie isn't so fond of Robbie(my little boy).Vinnie is very loving and great with kids and other dogs,but he is leary of Robbie.I just knew Robbie needed a dog that wasn't trying to get away from him.He loves animals...the hav fit the bill.I took a HUGE leap of faith and got Quincy.My husband ,always the skeptic,took one look at him,he was 5 pounds,and said,that's just a lap dog for YOU,not Robbie.I said NO ...you just watch(not really sure myself)I set Quincy on Robbie's lap in the car seat.He set right down on his lap and curled up.We had to stop,(a long ways from home)and when we returned back to the car,Quince was waiting looking for Robbie,sitting in his car seat.It was the cutest thing...to this day,that moment almost makes me cry.It was so touching.Robbie grinning ear to ear  with a little fluffy puppy on his lap-the only animal we ever had not wanting to get away from him.He has been great...not bark-y like toy breeds,or fragile etc.Just as the standard,and descriptions say.Miracles do happen!


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

Oh Julie. What a beautiful story. Now you got me crying too! These guys are great therapy for little ones and some of us big ones too.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Thank you Rita... 
He has helped me too!When I had Robbie he was 2 lbs.9oz.I lost my dad from cancer shortly before,lost my job because of having to be at the hospital,he was in there 3 months,then couldn't leave the house for 2 years,because of his immune system.I lost our sheltie,Sparky at 12 yrs.,got Vinnie,and then he just wasn't so sure of Robbie.Now I'm still home,Robbie goes to Kindergarten with a full time associate 3/4ths of the days,and continues to need alot of specialists etc.so I still couldn't return to work.Quincy and Vinnie are my best friends. Isn't it great how they never talk back? Don't complain?Etc.?LOL!I have 2 other children too....18 boy,15 girl...I get alot of lip! LOL!


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Also I just wanted to say,from the earlier posts I had,this is why I'm passionate about the havs.I want them to preserve this breed as best they can...for now,they really are what they say they are...they can enhance the lives of so many people,including special needs children and adults as well.What a sad day it will be when without careful breeding this breed could lose this "free spirit,love for people"
Thanks for reading this.......


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Such a great story, Julie. I am teary-eyed (there should have been a hanky warning). That is so great. As I said, I see how they interact with children all the time. They are gifts to us. I just love these dogs!!!!!!


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