# How to keep your Havanese less Matted



## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Hi, I wanted to share with everyone some new knowledge I aquired after spending the afternoon with a local breeder.
I had Zoey examined to see if she is going to be a good breeding Havanese and while I was their I learned that she has a coat similar to a poodle. I was told it is harder to keep up and does tend to mat more. Everything I was taught is way off to the left field of what we have been all talking about. Well the Breeder did a experiment on one of her dogs. She used pin brushes and combs on one side and just a soft slicker brush and very small tooth comb on the other. After several months she and others determined that the pin brush and combing side was more damaged compared to the slicker brushed side. 
She spent about 45 min showing me how to brush by line combing very gen-tally but getting down to the skin. With Zoeys hair being almost self cording the small thin wires really brushed her out. When we came to a mat she used the fine teeth of a small comb just to loosen the mat and then continued with the slicker brush. 
The biggest advice she gave me was to use a leave on conditioner small amount on your hand and starting at the skin out. And what I loved the most is that it is a human hair product that only costs $8 its called Neutrogena Triple Moisture leave in cream. The theory is if the coat is conditioned the mats don't form as easy. Well I tell you I have been very lazy lately with grooming I only get to it about once or twice a week. 
Zoey had gone 2 weeks without a bath and it only took me about a hour and a half. I only ran into 3 mats! It works ! Buy it you will like it :whoo:


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## jessegirl (May 13, 2011)

Suzy, that's great! I'm so glad to hear you found a method that works for you. It is so cool that everyone can share the info they learn here b/c although there are many methods/products/etc. that work from one dog to the next, each one IS different.


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

Suzi - so glad you found someone to help you and that the grooming is going better for you. As Jessica said, different dogs seem to require different techniques and products - what works for one doesn't necessarily work for another. Having my two Havs has made that quite apparent. I might have to try that conditioner on Finn. His coat felt so nice and was easy to comb for well over a week after he was bathed at the boarding place. I hope they made a note of what they used on him. I need to call and ask, because what I am using is OK, but isn't making his coat as nice as what they used on him.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

I have two hair types maddie doesn't even seem like she has a undercoat very fine and silky. The combination I just used made both so soft. Maddie usually takes about half the time because she has half the hair. Neither had a bath for about two weeks and neither of them had more than 3 mats each. This is what I used.
#1 Bio Groom Protein Lanolin( watered down) 
#2 Paul Mitchel whiting ( Just for Zoeys yellow stains)
#3 Pantene Classic Conditioner(Watered down)
#4 After totally dry, Zoey"s thicker more wavy coat gets Neutrogena Triple Moisture silk touch leave in cream
I bought all three for $17:whoo: ( cant remember how much the Paul Mitchell was but its for dogs at Petco
I bet Finn's hair type is similar to Zoeys!
And with the new brushing I learned I only had a very tiny pile of hair from both:whoo:


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

I just combed Augie out. Dang, I should have taken a 'before' photo! My head is so scattered today. Kids coming down tonight and I am doing the cooking today, so we can eat as leftovers tomorrow as I don't want to spend the only day they will be here cooking! Anyway, It took about 5 minutes to comb him and I hadn't combed him in probably four or five days. I gave him a bath last Thurs - so since then. He has gotten so easy to comb. Finn isn't too hard to comb - IF HE WOULD JUST STAND STILL!! That boy is all about drama! Such a monkey! :biggrin1: 

I just found a product here I haven't used yet. I think I picked it up at a show in Portland from a vendor who comes from Idaho, but can't remember the name of at the moment. She has Havanese and I think she uses this one on one of hers. MinkSheen. I don't know as I have seen it mentioned on the forum. Guess I should try it.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

motherslittlehelper said:


> I just combed Augie out. Dang, I should have taken a 'before' photo! My head is so scattered today. Kids coming down tonight and I am doing the cooking today, so we can eat as leftovers tomorrow as I don't want to spend the only day they will be here cooking! Anyway, It took about 5 minutes to comb him and I hadn't combed him in probably four or five days. I gave him a bath last Thurs - so since then. He has gotten so easy to comb. Finn isn't too hard to comb - IF HE WOULD JUST STAND STILL!! That boy is all about drama! Such a monkey! :biggrin1:
> 
> I just found a product here I haven't used yet. I think I picked it up at a show in Portland from a vendor who comes from Idaho, but can't remember the name of at the moment. She has Havanese and I think she uses this one on one of hers. MinkSheen. I don't know as I have seen it mentioned on the forum. Guess I should try it.


 Give that monkey of yours a big hug from auntie Suzi!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> I have two hair types maddie doesn't even seem like she has a undercoat very fine and silky. The combination I just used made both so soft. Maddie usually takes about half the time because she has half the hair. Neither had a bath for about two weeks and neither of them had more than 3 mats each. This is what I used.
> #1 Bio Groom Protein Lanolin( watered down)
> #2 Paul Mitchel whiting ( Just for Zoeys yellow stains)
> #3 Pantene Classic Conditioner(Watered down)
> ...


So is it the Paul Mitchel whitening shampoo the one you said was drying?


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

OH, that would make sense if it was the paul mitchell... for some reason I thought she was talking about the same biogroom one I used...?


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

Ha - and I thought she meant whitening shampoos in general! :biggrin1: And that is why three different people can see the same accident and see it three different ways. Too funny!


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

krandall said:


> So is it the Paul Mitchel whitening shampoo the one you said was drying?


 No I just think all Whiting shampoos are more drying although the Paul Mitchell is PH balanced so is one of the better ones. I usually ad more cream rinse back their to try to help moisturize. I only use it because she gets yellow from her pee. I have no idea if what I'm saying is true it is just seems logical that it would be more drying. I mean it is like bleaching or something.  maybe others could give their opinion.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

motherslittlehelper said:


> Ha - and I thought she meant whitening shampoos in general! :biggrin1: And that is why three different people can see the same accident and see it three different ways. Too funny!


 You are right I was talking about whitening shampoos in general.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> No I just think all Whiting shampoos are more drying although the Paul Mitchell is PH balanced so is one of the better ones. I usually ad more cream rinse back their to try to help moisturize. I only use it because she gets yellow from her pee. I have no idea if what I'm saying is true it is just seems logical that it would be more drying. I mean it is like bleaching or something.  maybe others could give their opinion.


But that's what I've told you, Suzi... There IS NO BLEACH in BioGroom Superwhite. There isn't anything in it that SHOULD be drying. As I've said many times, I use it as my ONLY shampoo (not just on yellowed parts) and have since Kodi was 11 weeks old. The Kings recommended it, and I know they use it regularly too. Their dogs have beautiful coats, so I don't think it is drying them out either.

Honestly, I don't know of any "whitening" shampoos that contain a bleaching agent. There might be some special purpose show products that do, but I wouldn't use those, even on yellowed areas.


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## DonnaC (Jul 31, 2011)

I use a whitening shampoo to brighten baxter's cream color. No bleach. Where there's frizz, that's just him.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

I know they don't have bleach I use the word like bleach I just wounder what is in the brighting shampoos to make white whiter? seams to me it would be harsher substance . Or maybe its citric acid. I'm glad you like yours. I like mine also just don't use it all over because its not as moisturizing as my other shampoo.


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## DonnaC (Jul 31, 2011)

I use one that has a conditioner combined, and then I rub some conditioner on his ends and don't rinse it. I feel sure I could find something better -- he still has frizzies on his back. I just hadn't thought of the whitening shampoo as a problem.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

Tillie's whole back is 'frizzies' too.. .I'm assuming that part is "cottony" while the rest of her is silky... I don't think there is anything I can do to CHANGE it, but I CAN moisturize the HECK out of it! LOL


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

Augie's back is a bit more frizzy too, especially the back third toward his tail, but I would say his is a bit more wiry than cottony there. Like an older woman with long crazy gray curly hair!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> I know they don't have bleach I use the word like bleach I just wounder what is in the brighting shampoos to make white whiter? seams to me it would be harsher substance . Or maybe its citric acid. I'm glad you like yours. I like mine also just don't use it all over because its not as moisturizing as my other shampoo.


I've told you that too. The whitening ingredient is bluing. It isn't harsh. People have used it on their hair for eons. we also regularly use it on horses... straight bluing, straight out of the bottle and into their rinse water to make them sparkling white.

There is no citric acid or any other type of acid in it. Where are you getting this?

It's fine to share facts, Suzi, or even your personal experiences. But you are stating that this shampoo is "drying" without (at least so far) one shred of evidence to back up your claim. I don't think you do anyone with a white dog a favor by scaring them away from a product that can help them keep their dog cleaner, without any evidence that it does any harm at all. (BTW, it is "pH balanced" as well)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

DonnaC said:


> I use one that has a conditioner combined, and then I rub some conditioner on his ends and don't rinse it. I feel sure I could find something better -- he still has frizzies on his back. I just hadn't thought of the whitening shampoo as a problem.


I wouldn't assume that the whitening shampoo is a problem.

Part of the "frizzies on the back" thing is age. When Kodi was about a year old, I mentioned that to my breeder, Pam King. He has already "blown coat", and was quite silky everywhere else, but his back was still cottony and frizzier than the rest of him. Pam told me that this was still puppy hair, and he'd eventually lose it. She was right! By the time he was 2, he had lost the "back frizzies" and was silky all over. (even using whitening shampoo every week )


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TilliesMom said:


> Tillie's whole back is 'frizzies' too.. .I'm assuming that part is "cottony" while the rest of her is silky... I don't think there is anything I can do to CHANGE it, but I CAN moisturize the HECK out of it! LOL


She's still young enough that you might very well see it change, still, Tammie!


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## Becky Chittenden (Feb 4, 2009)

The whitening shampoos that do have a bleaching agent specifically let you know not to use on color. For years, people used blueing for brightening the whites and now you fine blue shampoo. I have gray hair and twice a week shampoo in shimmer white to make sure it is white, not yellow. I agree the frizzy is probably going to go away. You can always condition it more.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

krandall said:


> I've told you that too. The whitening ingredient is bluing. It isn't harsh. People have used it on their hair for eons. we also regularly use it on horses... straight bluing, straight out of the bottle and into their rinse water to make them sparkling white.
> 
> There is no citric acid or any other type of acid in it. Where are you getting this?
> 
> It's fine to share facts, Suzi, or even your personal experiences. But you are stating that this shampoo is "drying" without (at least so far) one shred of evidence to back up your claim. I don't think you do anyone with a white dog a favor by scaring them away from a product that can help them keep their dog cleaner, without any evidence that it does any harm at all. (BTW, it is "pH balanced" as well)


 All right Karen you have made your augment the shampoo in your opinion is not drying. I still would not use it as my all around shampoo but that is only because Zoeys black is very black and the majority of the rest of her coat is very white so I have no need to put dies on her with the exception of the yellow pee staining down her back legs. Maddie doesn't need it at all. 
I was just wondering why Tammie picked a whiting shampoo for Tillie that is all . I personally don't think it is as good of choice as many other shampoo's. But who am I too say? You have much more experience than I do.


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## bellapico (Nov 29, 2009)

I have no idea if i will get banned for stating this point of view as I suspect it may not be welcomed but as someone that visits havaneseforum a lot but doesnt post cause I have not made a commitment to get my own puppy. I really have to say that it sometimes seems that the tone used towards Suzy seems really condescending and that her opinion is not respected by certain members of the forum. I feel that sometimes the comments/reply seem so harsh and because Suzy doesnt apparantly follow some of the acceptable ways of doing things that she is sometimes given a very public dressing down, I often walk away feeling really bad for her.

I feel that when certain members state their opinion, it is presented with such authority but when Suzy states an opinion on her experience, she very often gets reprimanded like a misbehaving child, but I believe her opinion is equally as valid as anyone else on this forum. I really just had to say this because it has been bothering me for a while and it may get me banned but such is life. i am not staying I agree with Suzy but i just dont think the response she gets is always necessary.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I've been on this forum a long time and yes, people can be pretty passionate about what they believe. I certainly hope that Suzi does not feel ilke her opinion and interjections are not valued and appreciated, the great thing about the forum format is you often get many ideas in one suggestion pool and can try different ideas until you find one that works, not all shampoos/conditioners are great on all coats, not all training methods work on all dogs.

I, personally, did some of the 'old school' thought training with Gucci and she turned out fine, for the most part..she's a dog 

I don't think its a problem sharing tips that we become aware of, through friends, vets, reading, etc. even if we haven't tried them all, I haven't had to to face every single hurdle in Havanese rearing, but I think we all absorb ideas and training every day, by being here, by sharing our knowledge with one another,and I hope this forum can continue to be a diverse medley of ideation and reflection of life as we experience it within our own specific restraints, ideas, experiences (or those of others we know)..

I'd hope that nobody here feels their interjections and ideas are not valued in the community.

Kara


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

I really don't appreciate some of the statements that get thrown at me. But I have come to the conclusion some people just speed read and miss my true statements. This whole trend was just trying to share some new products that I found. I had also made a statement on Tammies trend about why is she using a blue shampoo . And Karen thought I was stating facts that I had no back up on. Yes the statement was just my opinion. Although I have now done more research and have actually found that the chemical blue 1 cl 42090 and ext violet 2 c1 60730 has been banned in some country's 
Any way if Karen had read my post on the first page she would not have written such a forceful response on page three her is my post that she didn't read.
No I just think all Whiting shampoos are more drying although the Paul Mitchell is PH balanced so is one of the better ones. I usually ad more cream rinse back their to try to help moisturize. I only use it because she gets yellow from her pee. ]I have no idea if what I'm saying is true[/SIZE] it is just seems logical that it would be more drying. I mean it is like bleaching or something. maybe others could give their opinion

I now know the blue isn't actually taking out the yellow it is just covering it up with dye . It works good on color treated hair to bring back white when the color has turned yellow. And also helps gray hair that is actually clear have a pigment. So I don't see any point in using it at all because really it only takes the yellow away for about a day before she pees on herself again. 
I would probably use it again for a show and or a special occasion.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

krandall said:


> She's still young enough that you might very well see it change, still, Tammie!


This is what I am banking on (and hoping for) Karen!!  eace:


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

I hope that happens for Tillie, too, but Abby is four now and her back seems to just get frizzier! I do believe we can't really "change" the texture of the hair but maybe be able to "soften" the frizzies just a little. I am going to look for Suzi's Neutrogena Triple Moisture leave-in conditioner. If it doesn't work for Abby I can try it on my frizzies!


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## GrannyMouse (Sep 3, 2010)

I've had great success with the cholesterol treatment from Sally's - about $8.00 for a HUGE jar. I leave it on for about 30 minutes (after heating with the hair dryer) while she is in a towel. I also have had great luck with some of the Palmer's conditioners. Also for humans and very cheap at Target. It really has helped the frizzies.

About the brushing - I was told NOT to use a slicker that it takes out the undercoat and causes coat to break.

Just another opinion . . .


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