# Difference between silky and cotteny coats?



## heatherk (Feb 24, 2011)

The only hav I've met in real life with longish hair, has been mine lol. So I'm not really sure whether he has a cotteny or more silky coat, or even really what the difference is from pics on this forum. From what I've read, I would know the difference at once if I met two different havs, one cotteny and one silky, but can somebody try to explain the difference to me?


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

It's hard to tell just by a picture... but I think you should be able to tell even if you haven't met another Hav. We met our first other hav yesterday! But he was in a puppy cut! I knew by the time Tillie was about 6 months that she was a "cottony" hav because her hair is SO fooooofffffy and yet thick at the same time. To me, your hav looks more silky than cottony... just my 2 cents!


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## heatherk (Feb 24, 2011)

TilliesMom said:


> It's hard to tell just by a picture... but I think you should be able to tell even if you haven't met another Hav. We met our first other hav yesterday! But he was in a puppy cut! I knew by the time Tillie was about 6 months that she was a "cottony" hav because her hair is SO fooooofffffy and yet thick at the same time. To me, your hav looks more silky than cottony... just my 2 cents!


Thanks Tammy! Yes, its hard to tell from pictures, but I know if I met a certain type of coated hav in real life, I would probably know the difference right away - but right now, I go back and forth between thinking he is silky, and cottoney! It doesn't help that his head is definitely more silky than his back


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## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

It takes a while for them to get their final adult coat,and it can go a bit frizzy in their teens!Before it settles down.And there is wide range of difference with in the 'cottony types' and within the 'silky types' of hair. Also some have a double coat,and others don't.Here's a pic of my two,Nellie has not even blown her coat yet and she is almost 13 months,as you can see she looks pretty cottony,but her breeder thinks that in the fullness of time she will end up more silky,her coat is very silky to the touch more so than Dizzies. She is just slow maturing,where as Dizzie has a straighter fuller coat which is still changing he is over two years old, his coat looks silky but it cobwebs up underneath like a cottony.So patience and time will tell.Of course there is the whole controverse over the differing breed lines,but that is not just about different coat types.Dizzie and Nellie as they are now,Dizzie at 15 months, and Nellie at 12 months old.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

There is a genetic difference, and there are even DNA tests for the different coats now. The silky coats can be either with the individual carrying genes only for the silky drop coat, or it can be a carrier of one gene for the curly coat. 

Our experience with our pack shows that carrying one copy of curly can modify the coat enough to not quite make it completely silky. The silky coat still has some wave but the wave is looser than when the individual is carrying curly. The carrier can have all sorts of variations between the two from almost silky to pretty daggone curly.

An individual carrying two copies of curly will have a really curly adult coat like a poodle or bichon. 

The curly coat may not show up until the adult coat. For example, our Fifth carries two copies. Her puppy coat was nice and silky, but still really thick with the undercoat. When her adult coat came in, she looked like a completely different dog. That's why we didn't use her in our breeding program. She was spayed and is enjoying life with a family who has another older dog of ours as a beloved pet. You can see Fifth's puppy coat on her page linked to from our Retired Dogs page. I don't have an adult picture on there, but almost no one would recognize her as being the same dog.

The breeder can tell when they are first born and are still wet right after the sack is pulled off, if they know what they are looking at. 

The coat DNA test has been available from Vetgen for a couple of years now. We no longer produce curly in our line.


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

Tom, Abby doesn't have a curly coat - loose waves - but she still has frizzy looking ends on the hair on her back. The rest is silky. Do you know what causes some of the hair to be cottony and some silky?


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## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

Tom King said:


> There is a genetic difference, and there are even DNA tests for the different coats now. The silky coats can be either with the individual carrying genes only for the silky drop coat, or it can be a carrier of one gene for the curly coat.
> 
> Our experience with our pack shows that carrying one copy of curly can modify the coat enough to not quite make it completely silky. The silky coat still has some wave but the wave is looser than when the individual is carrying curly. The carrier can have all sorts of variations between the two from almost silky to pretty daggone curly.
> 
> ...


Tom I have looked at your web site before,and watched your lovely videos.But today I studied it in great detail,and oh boy your dogs are stunning[you don't need me to tell you that]and they look more like the ones I have seen in England,slightly longer nose tighter eyes and straighter coat,also a little more natural looking,in Britain they are a little less bow dried!Anyway I really enjoyed your web site,and I am very envious of your stunning dogs.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

I have always thought Tillie was/is cottony, BUT honestly since changing her diet 4 days ago, I am already seeing and feeling a HUGE difference in her coat! I thought she was soft before... i was WRONG, she is feeling silkier by the day. Before the diet change her coat was very brittle, dry, frizzy and staticy. I wonder how much of our havs coats are just DNA and how much depends on there diet??


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

heatherk said:


> Thanks Tammy! Yes, its hard to tell from pictures, but I know if I met a certain type of coated hav in real life, I would probably know the difference right away - but right now, I go back and forth between thinking he is silky, and cottoney! It doesn't help that his head is definitely more silky than his back


Part of what's confusing is that puppies, in general, are more cottony and "fluffy" than the adults. The ones that are going to be more silky will lose a lot of the fluff when they blow their coats. The more cottony ones will have a much harder time blowing coat, and will STILL be very cottony after they have a fully adult coat. very few pet people with the cottony coated Havs choose to keep them in full coat... it's just too much work!

If I had to guess from photos, I'd say Cey was more the silky coated type.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tom King said:


> There is a genetic difference, and there are even DNA tests for the different coats now. The silky coats can be either with the individual carrying genes only for the silky drop coat, or it can be a carrier of one gene for the curly coat.


Tom, it seems to me that cottony coats aren't all just about curl... it also is about the AMOUNT of undercoat that the dogs have. The standard calls for:

"The coat is double, but without the harsh standoff guard hair and woolly undercoat usually associated with double coats. Rather, it is soft and light in texture throughout, though the outer coat carries slightly more weight. The long hair is abundant and, ideally, wavy."

It seems to me that a lot of the dogs that we talk about as being "cottony" have very profuse undercoats. Some, without being particularly curly. Has anyone looked into the genetics for this?


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