# Indoor litter box training - PLEASE HELP!



## Havamom10 (Apr 10, 2021)

Hello Havanese experts!
My Simba is an 11 week old male who was litter box trained by the breeder. He has been with us for 2 weeks now. For the first week at our home, we had him confined to a large ex-pen and he was really great about using the litter box. After week 1 at home, we have allowed him free reign around the home (only in the first floor). *I wonder if this is too much freedom too soon!! *When he is outside the ex-pen, he never wants to use the litter box. Many times, he would pee or poop right next to the litter box but not in it!!!!!
I have taken him out on some occasions and he does do his business outside without any issues. But, it is not always possible to only have him trained to do potty outdoors as we live in NJ and he starts to shiver badly with the cold even if the weather is about 50 degrees or lower! So, being able to train him for indoor potty training is important.
Some additional information:
1. We use a litter box with pine pellets.
2. He sleeps through the night, on his bed in a small x-pen in our bedroom at night and uses the litter box early morning to pee and then goes back to sleep..
3. He has never had an accident inside the ex-pen (neither the large one in the living room or the small one in the bedroom)


I've tried placing it in different spots, particularly the places he usually pees/poops in like under the dining table, but he doesn't want to use it. I've also tried keeping the litter box inside the ex-pen and taking him inside every time he is ready to pee/poop (nose to floor, walking in circles). He would wait until i take him out (after several minutes) and then pee/poop outside!

*How can we train him to use the litter box when he is outside the ex-pen?
How can we give him space to run around and have fun and also not have too much freedom that he pees/poops everywhere?*


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## MMoore (Aug 20, 2020)

I don't have an answer for you, but Finley was the same way, so you're not alone! Always used the litter box when she was confined to her ex-pen, but only a handful of times when she was loose in the room. We have gates up so she only had access to the family room and kitchen, but we had a litter box in the family room and then she had access to the one in the pen. I would put her in the pen whenever I left the room, even if it was only for a minute. 

I think the key is to have eyes on the puppy all the time, and watch for any little signal that he needs to potty. Of course, that's not always possible, we can get distracted, look away for a moment, etc. I'd say though you probably have given Simba too much freedom this early on. Buy a few gates and confine him to one room if possible (our layout doesn't really allow for a gate between kitchen and family room, so Finn has a bigger area than is ideal.) And we found treats to be very helpful in getting her to figure where to go. I had crumbs and pieces of treats in pockets of every jacket and every pair of jeans for a long time!

At almost 8 months, Finley is almost completely reliable. She will only go outside now. She's had 3 accidents in 3 months, but 2 of those were completely our fault - we missed her very obvious signals. The 3rd time she had just gotten back from her first kennel overnight, and I think in the excitement, it just happened. (We usually bring her with us, but this was graduation, and it just wasn't practical.) We'll be moving one of the gates soon, so her area will include the dining room, and we'll see how that goes. We still have the litter box in her ex-pen, although she hasn't used it in months. We've been testing her with more freedom lately - leaving her out of her pen when we're upstairs for longer periods now, and things seem to be going well. 

I'm sure others on the forum will have some great advice for you. Good luck!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Where is the litterbox when he's outside the pen? They can't solve a puzzle to find it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Havamom10 said:


> Hello Havanese experts!
> My Simba is an 11 week old male who was litter box trained by the breeder. He has been with us for 2 weeks now. For the first week at our home, we had him confined to a large ex-pen and he was really great about using the litter box. After week 1 at home, we have allowed him free reign around the home (only in the first floor). *I wonder if this is too much freedom too soon!! *When he is outside the ex-pen, he never wants to use the litter box. Many times, he would pee or poop right next to the litter box but not in it!!!!!
> I have taken him out on some occasions and he does do his business outside without any issues. But, it is not always possible to only have him trained to do potty outdoors as we live in NJ and he starts to shiver badly with the cold even if the weather is about 50 degrees or lower! So, being able to train him for indoor potty training is important.
> Some additional information:
> ...


WAY too much freedom, WAY too soon! If she doesn’t see this, PM Mikki, and ask her for her fantastic write-up on the “Forum way to potty train puppies!”


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## Havamom10 (Apr 10, 2021)

krandall said:


> WAY too much freedom, WAY too soon! If she doesn’t see this, PM Mikki, and ask her for her fantastic write-up on the “Forum way to potty train puppies!”


Thank you @krandall . I will reach out to Mikki regarding this!

Question on 'too much freedom' - Is it ok to keep him in his ex-pen (its a large 8 panel pen) all the time (except for when he is outdoors)? How do we give him enough freedom to walk around and play while also not giving too much freedom? Gates restricting his movement? Also, he seems so happy when he is able to run around the house!!!! 
Sorry about the ignorant questions. First time dog mom here! Appreciate your valuable insights


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## Havamom10 (Apr 10, 2021)

Tom King said:


> Where is the litterbox when he's outside the pen? They can't solve a puzzle to find it.


The litter box is placed where it is clearly visible and right where he prefers to pee on the carpet. He goes right next to the litter box and pees in the carpet. A few times, i also caught him getting ready to pee and picked him up and put him in the litter box and he would get out and pee on the carpet instead!!!!!


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## Havamom10 (Apr 10, 2021)

MMoore said:


> I don't have an answer for you, but Finley was the same way, so you're not alone! Always used the litter box when she was confined to her ex-pen, but only a handful of times when she was loose in the room. We have gates up so she only had access to the family room and kitchen, but we had a litter box in the family room and then she had access to the one in the pen. I would put her in the pen whenever I left the room, even if it was only for a minute.
> 
> I think the key is to have eyes on the puppy all the time, and watch for any little signal that he needs to potty. Of course, that's not always possible, we can get distracted, look away for a moment, etc. I'd say though you probably have given Simba too much freedom this early on. Buy a few gates and confine him to one room if possible (our layout doesn't really allow for a gate between kitchen and family room, so Finn has a bigger area than is ideal.) And we found treats to be very helpful in getting her to figure where to go. I had crumbs and pieces of treats in pockets of every jacket and every pair of jeans for a long time!
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for your response! I agree that too much freedom may be the key mistake of mine here. I will look into getting some gates that can restrict his movement. I greatly appreciate your time and effort to respond. Thank you!


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## NotAMuggle (Dec 4, 2020)

Havamom10 said:


> The litter box is placed where it is clearly visible and right where he prefers to pee on the carpet. He goes right next to the litter box and pees in the carpet. A few times, i also caught him getting ready to pee and picked him up and put him in the litter box and he would get out and pee on the carpet instead!!!!!


He probably is attracted to the carpet because he soiled it before and his scent is still on it. They can smell waaaaaay better than us, so even when you think you've sufficiently cleaned the floor/carpet, he may be picking a faint scent up of his. You need to use an enzymatic cleaner to truly kill the scent. Something like Nature's Miracle (theres other options too that im sure work).


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## Havamom10 (Apr 10, 2021)

NotAMuggle said:


> He probably is attracted to the carpet because he soiled it before and his scent is still on it. They can smell waaaaaay better than us, so even when you think you've sufficiently cleaned the floor/carpet, he may be picking a faint scent up of his. You need to use an enzymatic cleaner to truly kill the scent. Something like Nature's Miracle (theres other options too that im sure work).


Thank you! Yes, I've been using an enzymatic cleaner 'every single time' he does his job somewhere. He also seems to do it at random spots (not always the same one). SO i'm not sure that its the smell. He does seem to look for a private spot, dark, secluded!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Havamom10 said:


> Thank you @krandall . I will reach out to Mikki regarding this!
> 
> Question on 'too much freedom' - Is it ok to keep him in his ex-pen (its a large 8 panel pen) all the time (except for when he is outdoors)? How do we give him enough freedom to walk around and play while also not giving too much freedom? Gates restricting his movement? Also, he seems so happy when he is able to run around the house!!!!
> Sorry about the ignorant questions. First time dog mom here! Appreciate your valuable insights


He can certainly be out of the ex- pen, but it should be on hard floors that are easy to clean at first, and with EYES ON supervision. With no distractions, and you shouldn’t be more than a step or two away from him.

This has nothing to do with “happiness”. You and he BOTH get to be happy for the rest of his life once he is reliably potty trained. But you would not let a toddler loose in your house without a diaper before he was potty trained, would you? Not only is the soiling an issue, but there are way too many dangerous things for a young puppy to get into. They need constant, eyes-on supervision when not in a conteolled environment that they have proven that they can handle, for a long, time.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Start with the expen smaller than it was when he first came home and was doing well. Make sure he goes a couple of days without accidents again before you return the expen to the size he was successful in. When you start giving him freedom outside of the expen, stay with him, making sure there aren’t any places he can run off and hide, like behind a sofa. I used another ex pen to stretch out like a long gate to keep him in one half of a room at a time. If he has accidents, make the space smaller and supervise more closely. Make sure he knows his way back to the litter box and is using it before you add more space. Keep the intervals short. It probably won’t be long before you can give him freedom in the main room of your home while someone is in the room with him, but plan for it to take a year until he’s fully potty trained. He may seem potty trained before he’s a year old, and he’ll probably have earned a lot of freedom by then so it won’t feel this restrictive for a whole year, but I would personally not give him access to all of the downstairs until after he’s a year old because in my opinion it’s just easier to wait until after he’s neutered, bypassed any potential marking stage, and there’s an infamous “1 year regression” with potty training to watch for. I would focus on expanding his freedom in your main living area over the next couple of months and then gradually work on the other rooms in your home one at a time. 

Mikki’s summary is so helpful and much more detailed, but I hope that helps!

In the spots where he has peed outside of the ex pen, make sure they’re super clean and sprayed with pee cleaner and then play with him there or do training and give him treats for 5 minute a few times a day. He won’t want to go potty there anymore if he sees it as a play or meal place. It also works as a preventative training measure, so I did this with area rugs and it was helpful. You could start doing this in bedrooms or other places when you have time to have him within arms’ reach. Sundance gives a play bow from the rug under our table now when he wants to play, and would never, ever pee on it.

I might have misunderstood you, so if it doesn’t apply just ignore this next part. The smell of pee on carpet is different than the smell of it in the litter box so if he missed the litter box and it got on the carpet, I’d try to move the litter box for a couple of days, even if it’s only a couple of feet. Enzymatic cleaner can take a couple of days and sometimes more than one treatment to work, and you don’t want him associating the smell of carpet with his potty in the meantime. I didn’t have trouble using a litter box over carpet with an older puppy but you might want to put down a scrap of vinyl floor or a splat mat of some kind underneath it until he has the hang of it again.

Also, don’t feel bad about not letting him “explore” your whole house. He really, truly is perfectly happy to play in a small part of a room at a time. They don’t need much space to play.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Havamom10 said:


> The litter box is placed where it is clearly visible and right where he prefers to pee on the carpet. He goes right next to the litter box and pees in the carpet. A few times, i also caught him getting ready to pee and picked him up and put him in the litter box and he would get out and pee on the carpet instead!!!!!


 Carpet itself is a problem. Once it has been peed on, it is almost impossible to completely get the smell out. Anywhere he has peed once, he will want to oee again. That is why it is IMPERATIVE to limit him to areas with hard, easy to clean surfaces until he is WELL along in his training.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I was trying to write fast, and trying to summarize (haha I’m bad at that) and I forgot - I dont think I’d move the litter box around. I think of the litter box and expen as “home base” and expand his area of freedom slowly around it. If you want to add other litter boxes as you are training in other rooms, or move it into a bedroom at night because it’s convenient for you, that’s different. But don’t try to take the litter box to him during the day. He should be going to it, and if he isn’t, he needs to be closer to home base. To clarify, though, if his ex pen and litter box need to be over carpet and you already have a spot you need to address, moving the potty to the other side of the expen might help. The enzymatic cleaner needs oxygen to work and may need several treatments and extraction with a carpet cleaner. Then as soon as you can get something to lay over the carpet for right now. It doesn’t need to be really nice because it doesn’t have to be permanent. Exposure to carpet in an expen when he’s using his potty reliably can be great training, but he needs a safety net first.


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## Havamom10 (Apr 10, 2021)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I was trying to write fast, and trying to summarize (haha I’m bad at that) and I forgot - I dont think I’d move the litter box around. I think of the litter box and expen as “home base” and expand his area of freedom slowly around it. If you want to add other litter boxes as you are training in other rooms, or move it into a bedroom at night because it’s convenient for you, that’s different. But don’t try to take the litter box to him during the day. He should be going to it, and if he isn’t, he needs to be closer to home base. To clarify, though, if his ex pen and litter box need to be over carpet and you already have a spot you need to address, moving the potty to the other side of the expen might help. The enzymatic cleaner needs oxygen to work and may need several treatments and extraction with a carpet cleaner. Then as soon as you can get something to lay over the carpet for right now. It doesn’t need to be really nice because it doesn’t have to be permanent. Exposure to carpet in an expen when he’s using his potty reliably can be great training, but he needs a safety net first.


Thank you so much! I'm learning a lot from these suggestions. This is so helpful. Not moving the litter box around is such great advice and i didnt think of that before! Duhhhh
I will restrict him to hardwood floors and keep the litter box in the ex-pen. He has never had a single accident inside the ex-pen, so that's a safe area!

One follow up question - My Simba doesn't seem to care for treats at all!!!! I've tried a few different ones (Life's Abundance and another brand I don't remember now) and he doesn't seem food motivated at all. Is there any advice on this? Thank you!


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## Havamom10 (Apr 10, 2021)

krandall said:


> Carpet itself is a problem. Once it has been peed on, it is almost impossible to completely get the smell out. Anywhere he has peed once, he will want to oee again. That is why it is IMPERATIVE to limit him to areas with hard, easy to clean surfaces until he is WELL along in his training.


Thank you! You're right as he only pees on carpet and never on the hard wood floors. Time to look for some baby gates now!


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## NotAMuggle (Dec 4, 2020)

Havamom10 said:


> Thank you so much! I'm learning a lot from these suggestions. This is so helpful. Not moving the litter box around is such great advice and i didnt think of that before! Duhhhh
> I will restrict him to hardwood floors and keep the litter box in the ex-pen. He has never had a single accident inside the ex-pen, so that's a safe area!
> 
> One follow up question - My Simba doesn't seem to care for treats at all!!!! I've tried a few different ones (Life's Abundance and another brand I don't remember now) and he doesn't seem food motivated at all. Is there any advice on this? Thank you!


For treats it might just be trial and error to see what he considers high value. A tiny frozen blueberry proved to me that Piper is not, in fact, deaf the second she steps outside on a leash 😝.

She for some reason oddly hates the bil jac company with a passion though. Three completely different bil jac treat flavors and she acts like i'm offering her trash on a stick. Must've been a disgruntled bil jac employee in a past life lol


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

He might not be really food motivated but don’t give up, make a big deal when you give a treat and lots of praise and excitement, even if he leaves it on the floor. Some of it can be taught. I think a of puppies that don’t start out food motivated can still become much more food motivated, and it’s really useful to have an easy tool at your disposal, for teaching basic house manners or even to get him to run back if he escapes his harness or something. There are some that just don’t care about food, but even with those puppies, offering the treat combined with praise and ear scratches or some kind of attention will help you find what does motivate him.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

NotAMuggle said:


> For treats it might just be trial and error to see what he considers high value. A tiny frozen blueberry proved to me that Piper is not, in fact, deaf the second she steps outside on a leash 😝.
> 
> She for some reason oddly hates the bil jac company with a passion though. Three completely different bil jac treat flavors and she acts like i'm offering her trash on a stick. Must've been a disgruntled bil jac employee in a past life lol


Sundance loves frozen things, too, especially when he was a puppy! He also likes raw sugar snap peas and carrots, although sometimes he chews carrots and spits them out. I think he likes the crunch.


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

NotAMuggle said:


> For treats it might just be trial and error to see what he considers high value. A tiny frozen blueberry proved to me that Piper is not, in fact, deaf the second she steps outside on a leash 😝.
> 
> She for some reason oddly hates the bil jac company with a passion though. Three completely different bil jac treat flavors and she acts like i'm offering her trash on a stick. Must've been a disgruntled bil jac employee in a past life lol


🤣🤣🤣🤣love you hearing test you use😘


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