# Anxiety - and new pup not interested in treats



## MarkF (Nov 9, 2009)

So I'm trying to work on my new pups separation anxiety. The problem is he has zero interest in any of the toys or treats we have. I have scoopy snacks, liver treats, nylabones, rope toys, chew toys, stuffed toys, unstuffed toys, kongs of all shapes and sizes. Nothing interests him. As soon as I leave the room he is contained in (kitchen with litter box, doggy bed, crate, food & water, and toys, all he does is sit by the doorway and cry for me.

Any ideas on what I can use as a distraction?


----------



## kudo2u (Mar 7, 2009)

A second pup? :eyebrows:


----------



## dbeech (Jun 16, 2009)

How old is the puppy? How long have you had him?


----------



## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

kudo2u said:


> A second pup? :eyebrows:


 ound: ound: ound:

They don't like being separated from their humans. If you've only had the puppy for a short while it might just be a function of time till he gets used to the routine. He also might be suffering from separation anxiety.

Milo was never interested in any of the toys . . . till Bailey came along. They're still not the things that motivate him though.


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Mark, When you say that he has not interest in play or treats , do you mean all the time? Or are you referring to times when he is maybe stressed? Anyway , treating SA can be simple or quite time consuming. Severe SA requires professional help usually. Here is a quick guideline article by Norma Jeanne Laurette . Most dogs have an inherent degree of this ,but quite often we the owners inadvertently reinforce it. 

By Norma Jeanne Laurette
Separation Distress
Since dogs are pack animals, it's normal for separation to cause stress. Some dogs deal
with separation better than others, and when bored or stressed, many unwanted behaviors
can occur. Some dogs will vocalize while others will chew, dissect, dig, etc. Since these
behaviors are the result of stress, punishing will only make matters worse. For this type of
problem, you must ignore the symptom and treat the cause.
Treatment for Separation Distress
• Break the dependency by ignoring all demands, especially demands for attention and
rewarding independent behavior.
• Choose a room from where the dog cannot escape, and will be easy to puppy proof.
• Puppy proof the room by removing everything the dog may chew on and spraying with a
dog repellant, what cannot be removed. It's then important to touch the dog's tongue
with the repellant before you leave.
• Add sound for comfort by turning on a radio or television before leaving. Not only will
these sounds remind the dog of someone being home, it will also help to mask outside
sounds that could create stress for the dog.
• Set the dog up for success by making him comfortable and giving him plenty to do. Put
a comfortable bed in one corner and stuff his toy box with a variety of chew toys that
smell and taste good.
• Change your schedule so the dog can't predict your arrivals and departures. Predicting
your arrivals and departures will create stress for the dog.
• Calm the dog before leaving and after returning by practicing a ten-minute down-stay
before leaving, and ignoring the dog until he calms down upon returning home.
• Planned departures will ensure success for the dog for short periods of time, before
asking for more. Begin with a three minute departure and when all is well, add three
minutes. Increase the length of time up to what is reasonable.
• Be fair. Dogs are pack animals and are not meant to be alone for long periods of time. If
the dog can't adjust to these long periods, make other arrangements.


----------



## marb42 (Oct 19, 2008)

Dave's article gave great advice. I'll add that I have dealt with a significant amount of SA. 
We would always leave Marble with a treat when we'd leave. He wouldn't touch it until we got home and let him out of his xpen. This went on for months, but slowly he would start to eat the treat while we were gone. Also, do a search here for threads on SA.


----------



## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

How long have you had the puppy and how old is he?
Is he always contained in the kitchen, or just when you are in the midst of a task or otherwise busy?
Does he stay there alone for a prolonged period such as when you are at work?

If he is quite young still and in there a lot, this doesn't surprise me at all. Dogs are pack animals and when faced with no dog pack, they expect us to be their pack. This means they want to be with us whenever possible. 

Let us know what your situation is and what the puppy's day to day routine is and we will be better able to help you determine what is going on and help resolve things.

PS: we love seeing puppy pictures.


----------



## Sissygirl (Aug 8, 2007)

You might try the Dingo's. Sissy just loves them and they take a while to chew.

I get them at Petsmart and Walmart.


----------



## MarkF (Nov 9, 2009)

Update - Sammy is 18 weeks old and we got him on Thursday 3/4 days ago. Aside from boiled chicken nothing really get him excited, I have 4 or 5 different treats and is really not that interested. Even his kibble (which the Breder sent - Life's Abundant) doesn't get too much interest.

He did take some interest in his toys yesterday, his skineez and a rawhide bone. He is way too attached to me, I can't even go to the bathroom without his crying outside the bathroom door.

No chance of a second dog, my wife would shoot me first.


----------



## kudo2u (Mar 7, 2009)

Havanese are very attached to their people, so following you around and crying outside the bathroom door doesn't surprise me at all. I've given up on privacy - I don't even bother closing the door anymore unless we have company, in which case I bring them in with me then close the door.

This might sound really harsh, so I apologize in advance, and please don't take this the wrong way.....

It's possible that you're "feeding" his anxiety. If you're making a big deal out of everything, then he will see you as anxious, and that will make him anxious.

Example: When it's time to eat, make him "work" for his food (start teaching basic commands and make him do something - even if it's just "look at me" - before you put down the bowl). Then put down his food bowl and walk away. Not far - just 5 or 10 steps. Do something completely different. Read a book. Post pictures of your puppy on the forum. Paint your wife's toenails. Just completely ignore him and the food, but stay within a short radius so he knows you're still right there. When he eats, don't say anything. Don't praise him, don't talk to him, just let him eat.

When you leave for the day, don't make a big production of going. Make sure he has what he needs, but don't make a big deal of trying to get him involved in toys or treats, don't make an issue over trying to make him comfortable....just make sure he has what he needs, tell him "have a good day" or whatever you plan to say to him each time you leave the house for the next 15 years, then go. And when you come home, don't run over to see how he's doing. Come home (make sure he can see you) put your keys and wallet up, say hello to your wife, do something near him but not with him for maybe 2-3 minutes. Don't look at him, don't talk to him, don't reach for him. He needs to understand that your wife is higher in the pack than he is, and that he has to wait his turn when you get home. When you're ready, THEN you can (calmy) say hello and ask how his day was.

I know this sounds really harsh, but the patterns you establish now will shape how things will be for years to come. The more excitement that surrounds these events (food, you coming and going), the more anxious he will be each time one of them happens.

Plus, remember that his world just got turned completely upside down. He probably will have a rough time for a couple of weeks, but as you establish your new routine, he'll get more used to it and will become more OK with it.

The BIG key is not to let those cute puppy eyes get to you.  You have to remain firm, remain calm, not make a big deal out of these things. This will show him that 1) you're in charge and he can trust you to take care of him and 2) you're not anxious, so he has no reason to be, either.

I've rescued MANY dogs over the years and I've also raised 5 from puppies (many different breeds, and I currently own 2 Havs), and this is how I treat all of them. None of my dogs have separation anxiety, none of them jump on me (or anyone else) when we come home, and all of them have adjusted to the "house rules" without much problem. Some take longer than others (depending on their background and condition when they come to me). But I think Laila took the longest of any dog I've come across, and that's because she was a hurricane dog (very traumatized) and she's completely deaf, so I had to learn how to work with her. But even with Laila, she was calm and into our routine within about 3 months.

I hope that makes sense, and I hope you don't think I'm being mean or harsh. Just trying to explain what's consistently worked for me both in the past and currently.


----------



## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

When Milo and Bailey first came to me they had been on Bil-Jack puppy kibble. They (and the other dogs) *loved* it. You might want to try to mix some of that in. Understand though that this is a time of adjustment for all of you. From your puppy's perspective, he was dropped off in this foreign land with people he doesn't know, speaking a language he doesn't understand. It will get better, but it does take time.

As for treats, mine all loved the Bil-Jack liver treats.


----------



## MarkF (Nov 9, 2009)

No offense taken. I actually have been following much (if not all) of what you said. I never make a big deal about anything. No anxiety from me, I'm the mean one in the house. I have no problem, letting Sammy cry for an hour until he falls asleep in the kitchen on his own.

The food is the only anxious time, he seems uninterested in his dog food or snacks (so it is I who is anxious). Plus unless I lead him to and tap on his water bowl he doesn't drink his water. I lead him to his food bowl and tap on it encouraging him to eat. I think in total (between canned mixed with kibble) he is eating a bit less than a 1/2 cup in the entire day with encouragement. I put 1/3 cup out in the morning of which he eats about 2/3. I put about 16 pieces of kibble out at lunch of which he eats 0-1 pieces and I put about 1/3 of a cup at dinner and he eats about 2/3-3/4. Again, he doesn't get excited about it so it is tough to get him to work for it. The only thing he gets excited about is boiled chicken which is not always at hand.

We haven't really started the training, b/c he get's so excited by the chicken (and I'm thinking he is starved) that we can't get him to focus if it is in smelling distance. Unfortunately nothing else really interests him.



kudo2u said:


> Havanese are very attached to their people, so following you around and crying outside the bathroom door doesn't surprise me at all. I've given up on privacy - I don't even bother closing the door anymore unless we have company, in which case I bring them in with me then close the door.
> 
> This might sound really harsh, so I apologize in advance, and please don't take this the wrong way.....
> 
> ...


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

*It's Yer Choice*



MarkF said:


> We haven't really started the training, b/c he get's so excited by the chicken (and I'm thinking he is starved) that we can't get him to focus if it is in smelling distance. Unfortunately nothing else really interests him.


If your puppy is getting so over-excited over boiled chicken (that's really not a bad thing) that he can't concentrate on learning, you might want to check out this Susan Garrett's video called "It's Yer Choice":






This is an easy, fun way for a puppy to learn impulse control. Kodi caught on in a matter of minutes the first time I played it with him. Now, the moment I sit down in a chair with treats in a closed hand, he automatically folds into a beautiful down. I never specifically asked him for a "down", this was just his preferred position for "waiting". This very quickly translated into him automatically downing while I prepare his meals.

The neatest thing I've seen happen is that recently he's also figured out that it's the quickest way to get out of his ex-pen when I come home. I started noticing that not only was he not making any noise when I got home, but I'd come around the corner, and he's be lying there in a perfect down, alert and ready, but not moving until I came and told him what a good boy he was and lifted him out of the pen. ...And he taught that part to ME, not the other way around!<g>

If your puppy is strongly motivated by boiled chicken, use it!

BTW, there's a ton of useful information on Susan Garrett's site. She's best known for agility, but there's tons of stuff there that is great for just getting pet dogs off to a great start!


----------



## MarkF (Nov 9, 2009)

Wow that was a great video. Thanks. I will have to try that and report back.


----------



## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi Mark, just checking in to see how Sammy is doing. Hope you had a great Thanksgiving!


----------



## MarkF (Nov 9, 2009)

After a week with Sammy, he's doing OK. He has his toys that he likes. My kids play this game where they take his favorite toys out of his bed and put it in the living room. Then Sammy comes and one by one grabs his toys and puts them back in his bed in the kitchen.

Training is not going as well, but I will be enrolling in Obedience classes at my local AKC club which starts in 10 days, so that should help. He is still most attached to me which drives my son nuts. Sammy would rather whine by the bathroom door while I take a shower than play with my son.

He has not had a poop accident in the house but he has had 4 peeing accidents all of them on carpet. We have a front door mat which Sammy decided was another doggy bed. He'd bring his toys there, but then I caught him peeing on it. The mat is now hanging in the basement drying after being washed. The other 3 accidents were on my bedroom carpet which is the only carpeted room on the first floor. He uses the litter box in the kitchen for peeing, while pooping (and peeing) is done outside on our walks. 

Eating could be better he is very inconsistent. We go back to the vet on Monday for his final vaccinations so I'll check his weight. It could be that I'm overestimating what he should be eating and then disappointed at the leftovers. I usually use 1/4cup kibble with a 1/4 can of food for each meal (we do 2 meals) with another 1/4 cup of kibble sitting in his other food bowl all day. The extra never gets touched and he rarely finishes his morning or evening meal.


----------



## Chasza (Dec 10, 2008)

Test an enzyme cleaner in a hidden place on the carpet, and if it doesn't fade, use it to clean up the places where he has peed in the past since this is the only thing that will get the smell out. As long as he smells it in the carpet, it signals it being a place to go.

Even tho he's not food motivated that much, still, if you can, have your son put the bowl down, and after learning what to do at obedience school, have your son practice with him -- IF your son is old enough. If your son is so young that he will lose patience or not do it properly, then it's probably not a good idea to have him doing this.

Maybe after he's been there awhile, and more comfortable with his new home, he will feel more comfortable being away from what is clearly the 'pack leader' (you).


----------



## MarkF (Nov 9, 2009)

We have the enzyme cleaner, and I've used it. Must be working, b/c Sammy picked three different spots when he went.

My son is almost 11, but he may not do it properly. I will work with him, on getting it done. I actually have 4 kids ages 6.5 - 12.5, so this is an issue with all of them.

When I'm not in the house, he is fine and interacts with everyone, it is only when I'm home.

unfortunately all this of course makes taking a nap (for me) impossible unless I take Sammy into my bed. If I don't put him in my bed, he will either sit by the closed door crying, or if he is in my room he will be scratching at my bed trying to get up and in.



Chasza said:


> Test an enzyme cleaner in a hidden place on the carpet, and if it doesn't fade, use it to clean up the places where he has peed in the past since this is the only thing that will get the smell out. As long as he smells it in the carpet, it signals it being a place to go.
> 
> Even tho he's not food motivated that much, still, if you can, have your son put the bowl down, and after learning what to do at obedience school, have your son practice with him -- IF your son is old enough. If your son is so young that he will lose patience or not do it properly, then it's probably not a good idea to have him doing this.
> 
> Maybe after he's been there awhile, and more comfortable with his new home, he will feel more comfortable being away from what is clearly the 'pack leader' (you).


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

MarkF said:


> Eating could be better he is very inconsistent. We go back to the vet on Monday for his final vaccinations so I'll check his weight. It could be that I'm overestimating what he should be eating and then disappointed at the leftovers. I usually use 1/4cup kibble with a 1/4 can of food for each meal (we do 2 meals) with another 1/4 cup of kibble sitting in his other food bowl all day. The extra never gets touched and he rarely finishes his morning or evening meal.


That sounds like a LOT of food. Kodi is over 14 lbs and eats only 1/4 cup of kibble AM and PM top dressed with a sprinkle of Natural Balance rolled food, just for flavor. (he was a picky, slow eater before we started doing this)


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

MarkF said:


> He has not had a poop accident in the house but he has had 4 peeing accidents all of them on carpet. We have a front door mat which Sammy decided was another doggy bed. He'd bring his toys there, but then I caught him peeing on it. The mat is now hanging in the basement drying after being washed. The other 3 accidents were on my bedroom carpet which is the only carpeted room on the first floor.


You need to keep him OFF carpeted areas for the time being. Every time he gets a chance to pee on the carpet, it will be many, MANY more repetitions before he learns NOT to pee on the carpet.


----------



## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

MarkF said:


> Eating could be better he is very inconsistent. We go back to the vet on Monday for his final vaccinations so I'll check his weight. It could be that I'm overestimating what he should be eating and then disappointed at the leftovers. I usually use 1/4cup kibble with a 1/4 can of food for each meal (we do 2 meals) with another 1/4 cup of kibble sitting in his other food bowl all day. The extra never gets touched and he rarely finishes his morning or evening meal.


Mark, I've been busy and haven't fully read this thread, but your concern about how Sammy is eating caught my eye. I actually had that concern about my Tucker for a long time. But, don't worry about how much he's eating, sounds like he's doing fine. Actually, it sounds like you are feeding Sammy a lot more than he needs.

Tucker weighs 13 pounds, (2-1/2 years,) and the quantity he eats varies quite a lot, but roughly he eats about 1/8 cup of kibble/yogurt/canned food in the morning, and used to eat about 1/4 cup kibble for supper. (Now we do Nature's Variety 1 oz medallions for supper and he eats 3 of those, and he rarely refuses to eat all of them!)

The "recommended serving" on the packages see to be greatly over-estimated for our Havs. If Sammy has some meat on his ribs and not just bony, and the vet can help you learn what is healthy, he's doing fine. A lot of Havs seem to just simply skip occasional meals, too.


----------



## MarkF (Nov 9, 2009)

Here are pics of Sammy

http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=10446


----------



## MarkF (Nov 9, 2009)

Went to Vet, and I was right, Sammy dropped from 6lbs 8oz to 6lbs 5oz in 10 days. The vet said if Sammy likes the soft stuff give him more soft stuff instead of kibble.

It was so sad, he got 3 shots, got his eyes cleaned and his ears plucked, he was crying so much.

We go back in 2 more weeks for his final boosters for the year.


----------



## kudo2u (Mar 7, 2009)

Hi Mark,

I have a hard time taking my dogs to the vet, just because I can't bear to see them cry. :Cry: Just breaks my heart. They seem to get over it faster than I do....

As for the weight loss, I am certainly no expert and I may be completely off base, but I wouldn't really worry about it unless you're seeing signs that something else is wrong. 

I do understand he's a puppy and is supposed to be putting on weight, but even with that, weight can fluctuate not only from day to day, but also from hour to hour. So the 3 oz could be as simple as how much water he had to drink before this visit vs. last visit, and how long it's been since he used the bathroom (both pee and poo) before each of the weigh-ins. Could also be dependent on how hard he played yesterday vs. how hard he played the day before his previous weigh-in. There are SOOO many factors that impact weight from day to day.

Just as an example of how drastic this fluctuation can be, I will use myself as an example. I'm an athlete and my husband is a professional athlete (and my coach), and we're both VERY in-tune with our bodies - what we eat, what time we eat, quantities, fluids, etc. We're also both very aware of our weight, but not just weight, our BMI as well. Even with all of this "control" over diet, exercise, fluids, etc., my own weight can swing up to 8 pounds IN THE SAME DAY. It has to do with the timing of when I weigh myself. If I weight first thing when I get up, then weigh after lunch, before and after a workout, and last thing before I go to bed, EVERY SINGLE measurement will be off by at least a pound. Just for reference, my "average" weight is 115. Unless I'm below 110 or over 120, I just assume everything is OK. If I'm under 110, I need to find out why (so I don't make myself sick) and if I'm over 120, I need to take count of how much chocolate I had the day before. ound: 

Anyway, it really is not unusual to see changes from day to day. Go ahead and do what your vet suggests. But I've found the more of an issue you make of food, the harder it will be to get your dog to eat, and the more picky they will become. 

UNLESS there are signs of something else wrong. If he is acting sick, lethargic, changes in behavior, if you see worms in his stool..... that's a whole different story. But if he just isn't eating as much as you want him to, trust me - he's not going to starve himself!


----------



## MarkF (Nov 9, 2009)

Thanks for the reassurance


----------



## Sanya Sanders (Oct 22, 2009)

*I can relate*

You know I can totally relate to your post about separation anxiety. My little Yogi follow me everywhere also... bathroom included (he just sits on the matt waiting for me to come out of the shower - and he is perfectly happy). And he screams bloody-murder when we leave in the morning for work. It breaks my heart everytime. BUT you just have to be strong, I guess. I tried doing everything everyone suggested - fun treats, toys, tv on, not making a fuss when we come or go, and so far nothing has really worked. We leave for work everyday and have done so since we got him at 8 weeks, so he should get used to it (Yogi is 5 months now). I'm hoping that he'll grow out of it - my other dog schnoodle did.

Thanks and good luck!


----------

