# Protein in dogs' foods



## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

I know there must be a thread about this somewhere already, but I just can't find it. lol

Check this out: http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/protein.html

What is it about a high protein diet that has some people worried? If there are no kidney/liver issues, it is recommended a dog get lots of protein compared to lots of carbs. Their digestive system is not meant to handle carbs such as grains, flours and corn. They become fillers that can cause painful gas, over eating, skin and hair problems and maybe allergies. They wont' cause kidney problems. I just read that senior dogs do much better on no-grain foods.

What I did discover this past week, though, is that the fear of a high protein diet is that the ash content will be too high. If that's the case, it CAN be harmful. Ash is high depending on what type of protein is used. If they grind up too much bone, there will be a higher level of phosphorous and calcium and THAT in turn, can increase ash levels. If there is no bone used, such as in Orijen, then the ash levels are very low so there are no problems.

No, I don't work for Orijen! lol I just happened to read this in the past few days and I thought how much it makes sense. 

Carbs, on the other hand, just don't give any nutritional benefit to dogs; puppy, seniors or otherwise. Some isn't a huge problem, but too much and it turns into sugar which then turns into fat. Sure, some can do fine on grains their whole lives. It's different for different dogs, breeds and age groups. I think it's individual, but I do prefer a higher protein diet. 30-40%.

I am looking into the food "Horizon". Does anyone here use it, or know of it? I'm wondering if I should try it out as it is made in Sask. and of great quality, just that they don't use all fresh ingdts. as Orijen does. Most companies don't use fresh, and use frozen which is still fine.

I found this: "Kirk's Veterinary Therapy XIII, Small Animal Practice, page 861, written by Finco, Brown, Barsanti and Bartges "...restriction of protein intake does not alter the development of renal lesions nor does it preserve renal function. Considering these (research) findings, the authors do not recommend reduction of dietary protein in dogs with renal disease or reduced renal function in order to achieve renoprotective effects." They do recommend, though, that once a Blood Urea Nitrogen (BUN) level reaches 75, which is very elevated, that some restriction of protein intake be considered for beneficial effects unrelated to kidney function dynamics. These authors point out that Phosphorus blood levels can play a major role in the health status of dogs with compromised kidney function."

Interesting!

I'd like to hear what others think.


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## Lilysplash I (Jul 19, 2007)

I will be interested in everyone's opinion. It seems this remains a controversy because there is not a definitive opinion according to the research done. You will find both sides site research. I know Sadie's breeder was very much against high protein according to the prevailing opinion in the Havanese club she belongs to.


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Marj - I just am not one to be able to feed raw, so I agree that a higher protein is better unless there are liver or kidney issues. I've had a lot of luck with sweet potatoes as the carbohydrate as opposed to other kinds.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I think it really depends on the dog. I know that Jasper has more energy and acts more like a dog when I add some carbs (potato and greenbeans) to his high protein diet. (I use NV medallions) But Cash on the other hand eats his poo if I add anything to his high protein meals. I have recently been experimenting with the Ziwi Peak, which seems like a great food but really expensive-- I have been mixing just a bit into their cooked medallions to try to even out the nurtrition I cook away when I cook them. 

But, When ever get crazy over if what I am feeding them is the best-- I Just remember that there are plenty of Happy, Healthy, Old dogs that have lived on Dog Chow and table scraps. Someone please remind that next time I go all Crazy again.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

My dogs have always preferred protein to carbs. My big dogs used to love veggies, but Kodi and Shelby will not eat them. My two love their protein and I just cooked them a bunch of chicken thighs. They get Fromm's either chicken or salmon kibble and EVO Red Meat kibble.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Actually I do think that for the most part it is definitive from all the research done. The original testing was always done with protein from plant sources and not meat. The only ones really recommending a carb diet are vets who get their training from .... Hills and such, those who really don't want to increase the amount of quality meat and therefore lower their profits. It's amazing how much fear they put into pet owners.

As long as the ash level is not too high, as Marj indicated. Then really you are much better off.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

does anyone know what is considered a high ash level--- or what is a good ash level?


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

I agree that it depends on the dog, but for the most part, we all pretty much know that raw is up there as likely the best thing - I know there are exceptions - but I just found out that one canine nutrition expert here in Montreal thinks canned is next best and THEN it's kibble. I didn't expect to hear that today, but I have read something similar in the past. Interesting.

I had to go to the store I work at today, and chatted almost an hour with the owner, Steve. It was very cool to find out that he and his wife have also been big in researching this ash/protein thing these past few days and we've all been checking backs of cans and of kibble bags. They met with a rep. from Orijen, from Alberta, and continue to be very impressed with their quality of food and preparation. They are firm believers that, so far, they are the best. Of course, that is a personal opinion, but based on a ton of research, debating with the company and experience. It's not the right food for all dogs as no one dog food is. Too bad, or it would be so much easier for US! 

Anyway, here's more on calculating protein content in dry and in canned foods. I had no idea!

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1661&articleid=662

Fascinating!! Takes more math skills though. lol


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Missy said:


> does anyone know what is considered a high ash level--- or what is a good ash level?


You know, Missy. I've spent a lot of time on here trying to get a straight answer to that question, but it seems like anything higher than 10% is too high. Ideal levels are 6-7% from what I gathered.

_*"Ash level
Ash is essentially what is left over if the food is burned in an incinerator. It is largely comprised of minerals, especially potassium and phosphorus, with smaller amounts of calcium, iron, magnesium, sodium and zinc. High ash levels indicate a high mineral content; high phosphorus levels are especially damaging to dogs with kidney disease (but will not harm the kidneys of a health dog)."*_

Unfortunately, most companies do not include ash on their ingdts. list so have no numbers to show you. It's hard to figure out, but if they use a lot of bone along with the meat (and cook all this, not for raw), chances are the numbers are a little on the high side.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I posted this in another thread-- but Oprah's vet also thinks quality canned is better than dry.

http://www.drmarty.com/feeding.htm


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## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

Here are my thoughts on the subject Marj:
1. A meat based diet is the natural diet for a dog, because this is what he historically ate. That does not make it healthiest.
2. To prove that a high protein diet is better for most dogs or specific breeds, there needs to be actual research studies that is double blind--meaning 2 different diets are tried with neither side knowing what diet their dog is being fed and the results are measured. 
3. I have done extensive searching, but I have been unable to read any abstracts of the aboove research being done. I have read that "research shows this and that" but not the actual abstracts of the studies. If anybody can post a link, I would love to read it. 
4. I am not saying that a protein diet may not be best for the average dog, it just has not been proven as far as I can tell.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Hmm...... I like what you're saying, Cheryl. I'm just wondering, though, is there a study that proves that too many carbs and/or grains are NOT good for dogs? 

Don't some of us know at least a dog or two that doesn't tolerate grains well and either have skin allergies, or itching/biting, or bloating/gas/stool problems? but I suppose we can say we all know of a dog or two that doesn't tolerate HIGH protein foods the same way!! ound: Oh dear. 

You do bring up a valid point. Something ELSE to keep me awake tonight. Thanks, my friend.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Alright, people. More food for thought...... this is LONG, but maybe you can highlight it and print it out to read later. That's what I'll do after only making it halfway.  It is in response to a question someone here: http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=48372 wrote to Peter at Orijen. I have to put it into separate posts as it is too long.

"We agree with your position regarding the affect of protein on large breed puppies and the kidneys: In both cases, calcium and in particular phosphorus are the key indicators - not protein. Given that we are producers, I can certainly understand that dog owners would be skeptical of our position, so the best way to present our protein-based argument might be to offer you research and opinion independent of our own.

I'll start by confirming that AAFCO does not publish a maximum protein amount for dogs and neither do they have a minimum for carbohydrate. As protein in the diet increases, carbohydrate decreases which mimics the natural diet for which dogs and cats are evolved (in nature, dogs eat very few carbohydrates and are evolved to metabolize proteins and fats from meat). AAFCO however does set maximum levels for calcium and phosphorus (these can be substantiated by googling "AAFCO nutrient levels for dogs"). When present in excess, phosphorus in particular is known to have a negative effect on the kidneys (see research cited below) and, when combined with excess calcium, phosphorus also affect the rate of skeletal development (a concern for large breeds). Now we're not saying that AAFCO is the "be all, end all" - they're not, but AAFCO does set a minimum and maximum nutrient inclusions, which provides a useful start point (interestingly enough, you'll also see brands like ROYAL CANIN and EUKANUBA SIZE now feature large breed puppy diets above 30% in protein - which was unheard of 3 or 4 years ago&#8230;

Although I can't comment specifically on the information your member received from our customer service, I can apologize as the response was likely a result of misunderstanding or miscommunication. On large breed puppies (taken from the "b natural site" (An excellent information resource) http://b-naturals.com):

www.eukanuba-eu.com
This article reiterates that high protein does not cause OCD or HD, in either the hips or elbows:

Research into the growth of Great Danes (Nap RC, The Netherlands,) has shown that the protein level of a diet has no significant influence on skeletal development. High protein intake does not result in increased risk for OCD or HD, and there is no effect on the development in the longitudinal growth of the bone."

Additionally, while protein does not cause orthopedic problems, other nutrients can.

www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu
"In addition to excessive calcium intake, researchers have shown that over nutrition can also initiate these disturbances in skeletal maturation and growth. An excess protein intake, without an excess of other nutrients revealed NOT to influence skeletal maturation and growth in growing Great Danes (Ref. 2)."

This would include supplementation of calcium to processed diets, or could occur when feeding raw diets to puppies that are more than 50% raw meaty bones. Calcium amounts are adequate in commercial pet foods, and a diet of no more than 40% to 50% raw meaty bones is an appropriate amount for a growing puppy. This article also concludes that certain breeds may require less calcium than others for proper growth:

Further, the above article goes on to state:

"Therefore it is advised not to feed young dogs ad libitum or excessively, to prevent the development of (causative factors for) osteoartrosis. It is also common practice to advise a weight loosing programme to those dogs which suffer from osteoarthrosis as an aspect of conservative treatment or as an aid in surgical treatment of dogs with ED."

It is not excess protein that causes joint problems, but over feeding dogs can contribute to arthritis and orthopedic problems. Please note that most orthopedic and joint problems are inherited, but puppies and dogs that are over weight have a greater chance of an increase in pain and discomfort, and the potential of developing orthopedic problems as younger animals and arthritis later on in their life.

And while some nutritionists recommend feeding more fiber than meat and protein for weight gain, this can also have consequences, as it can block absorption:

www4.nas.edu
"The most obvious way to help a dog trim down is to feed it smaller amounts of food on its regular feeding schedule, and to make sure the dog is not being fed table scraps or getting into the food bowls of other dogs in the neighborhood. Owners may also choose a low-calorie "diet" dog food or food high in fiber, which may help the dog feel full without consuming too many calories. Too much fiber, however, can reduce the absorption of important nutrients."

In conclusion, a logical response to feeding puppies would include:

- Use high quality proteins:

These include using premium brands of dog food, or if feeding a raw or home cooked diet, use as much variety in animal proteins as possible. Don't skimp on the amount of proteins fed as these contribute to healthy growth, organ health and strong immune systems.

- Keep puppies and growing dogs lean.

Overweight and obese dogs have a much higher chance of developing arthritis and orthopedic problems.

- Don't overdose the Calcium:

Do not supplement with calcium if you use a commercial diet. For raw diets, use 50% or less of raw meaty bones in growing dogs. For home cooked diets, supplement at no more than 800 milligrams per pound of food served.

- Don't use high fiber diets for weight reduction:

Fiber, starches and grains can actually block certain nutrient uptake from the food served.
*
........ to be continued........ *


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

*..... continued Part II..... *

"As regards the concept of protein negatively affecting the kidneys this is simply not the case. We have not found a single study to confirm this position and have mounds to the contrary. I have taken the liberty of copying a few of the studies that are available on-line below. I should perhaps also point out that not all high-protein diets are equal. Some foods generate high-protein by using meals, which are typically high in ash, and therefore high in mineral content of which - you guessed it - elevated levels calcium and phosphorus would be a concern to large breed puppies, and phosphorus in general for kidney health in dogs of all breeds and life-stages. The information below is taken from www.dogaware.com - a great site for general information.

Please write again if I can be of further assistance and thanks for choosing ORIJEN.

Warm Regards,
Peter
www.championpetfoods.com

*
Is a Low Protein Diet Necessary or Desirable?*
Following are links to a series of articles and studies on the roles of protein and phosphorus in the diet of dogs with kidney failure. I have provided excerpts from these articles, but I would encourage you to read them in their entirety if you are dealing with a dog with kidney disease, as many of them contain a great deal more information than I will show here.
*
Dogs with kidney problems* by Dr. Lucy Pinkston, D.V.M.
"Because by-products of protein digestion are the main toxins that need to be excreted by the kidneys, an obvious assumption might be that all one needs to do is to cut out the protein and the kidneys wouldn't have any more hard work to do. . . . There is significant evidence, however, that the daily protein requirements actually increase slightly for dogs in chronic renal failure. Therefore, severely restricting the protein for such a dog is likely to result in protein malnutrition, in spite of the fact that the levels of blood urea nitrogen, or BUN (the primary by-product of protein metabolism) would be correspondingly lower." This article contains a great deal more useful information in easy to read format.

*Are High Protein Diets Harmful to a Dog's Kidneys?* from the Veterinary Services Department, Drs. Foster & Smith, Inc.
"The myth that high-protein diets are harmful to kidneys probably started because, in the past, patients with kidney disease were commonly placed on low-protein (and thus low-nitrogen) diets. Now we often put them on a diet that is not necessarily very low in protein but contains protein that is more digestible so there are fewer nitrogen by-products."

*The Mythology of Protein Restriction for Dogs with Reduced Renal Function *by Kenneth C. Bovee, DVM, MMedSc
"Morris subsequently developed, produced, and sold a low-protein diet, KD, for dogs with renal failure. He and others were influenced by the erroneous work hypertrophy concept for urea excretion advanced by Addis. While experimental or clinical data were never published to support the value of this or other diets, the concept was broadly accepted without challenge in the veterinary literature." This article talks about the history of protein restriction, and about 10 recent experimental studies that have failed to provide evidence of the benefit of reduced dietary protein to influence the course of renal failure. This article is no longer on line, but I have a copy of it that I could send to anyone who is interested in reading it (ask for Bovee.pdf).

*Nutrition and Renal Function from the Purina Research Report*
"Dietary Protein and Renal Function: Results of multiple studies indicated that there were no adverse effects of the high protein diets." This report also includes information on metabolic acidosis and on the beneficial effects of omega-3 essential fatty acids in patients with chronic renal failure. The complete reports on each of the three studies mentioned in this report are no longer available online, but I have copies of them that I could send to anyone who is interested in reading more, as follows: "Effects of Dietary Lipids on Renal Function in Dogs and Cats" (ask for Brown.pdf); "Effects of Dietary Protein Intake on Renal Functions" (ask for Finco.pdf); and "Acid-Base, Electrolytes, and Renal Failure" (ask for Polzin.pdf).

*Feeding the Older Dog* from the SpeedyVet Clinical Nutrition Library
"The assumption was that low-protein diets retarded the progression of renal degeneration. This assumption was disproved, using partially nephrectomised dogs, which showed no uraemic signs and had reduced but stable renal function for 48 months. These dogs did better on moderate-protein diets than on low-protein diets. There is no direct evidence that high protein intake damages canine kidneys or that reducing protein intake in dogs with renal dysfunction results in preservation of either renal structure or function."

*Dietary Management of Chronic Polyuric Renal Failure* from the SpeedyVet Clinical Nutrition Library
"Dietary protein restriction improves the clinical signs and quality of life of uraemic animals with both naturally occurring and experimentally induced renal failure. . . . However it is highly questionable whether protein restriction is appropriate in the azotaemic, but non-uraemic patient. The main risk of protein restriction is protein deficiency. The protein and amino acid requirements of dogs and cats with chronic renal failure have not been established, but may well be increased. . . . The main justification for protein restriction early in the course of renal failure would be if it was proven to slow progression of disease. The data that are available do not support this case in dogs. Dietary protein has been shown to affect renal haemodynamics in the dog, however, moderate protein restriction does not alleviate glomerular hypertension, hyperfiltration and hypertrophy. . . . Thus there is no evidence that moderate protein restriction slows the progression of renal failure in dogs, and it is not recommended in dogs which are not uraemic."

*Demystifying Myths About Protein* from Today's Breeder Magazine
"In contrast, research over the past 10 years or so has shown that protein does not harm the kidney of dogs. In studies conducted at the University of Georgia in the early 1990s, both in dogs with chronic kidney failure and in older dogs with only one kidney, protein levels as high as 34 percent caused no ill effects. . . . In other studies, David S. Kronfeld, Ph.D., indicated that compared with high- or low-protein diets, moderate-protein diets, those with up to 34 percent protein, had no ill effects in dogs with chronic renal failure and were associated with general improvement."

*Fortify The Food Bowl For The Aging Canine* by Susan Thorpe-Vargas, Ph.D. and John C. Cargill, M.A., M.B.A., M.S.
"Because of certain biochemical requirements, the healthy geriatric dog requires about 50 percent more protein than the young adult, and depending on the quality of the protein, it should make up 20 percent to 30 percent of the total calories ingested. . . . Until recently, protein restriction was recommended in an effort to protect renal function. Limiting protein fails to prevent urinary filtration problems . . . Indeed, newer research shows dietary protein is not detrimental to kidney function. On the contrary, protein restriction can result in impaired wound healing, diminished immune function and lowered enzyme activities and cellular turnover. Those dogs with impaired renal function do better with dietary phosphorus restriction; however, limiting this mineral is unlikely to delay the onset of renal disease or to benefit healthy geriatric dogs."

*Dietary Management for Clinical Disorders in Dogs* from the Journal of Indian Veterinary Association, Kerala
"Recent research on dietary protein and the kidney has shown that
o dietary protein does not cause renal failure
o dietary protein does not appear to be involved in the progression of chronic renal failure
o inappropriate restriction of dietary protein may actually have an adverse effect on the normal or compromised kidney"

*..... to be continued..... *


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

*... continued Part III ..... *

*Kidney Failure* from the Iams nutrition symposium
"'For years, physicians and veterinarians have treated renal failure by reducing protein levels in diets,' said Gregory Reinhart PhD, an Iams researcher. 'After working with leading universities, we have now found that restricting protein in a dog's diet may do more harm than good by potentially putting the companion animal at risk of protein malnutrition.'"

*Managing a Renal Crisis* by Martha S. Gearhart, DVM
". . . at least one study has taken several groups of dogs in kidney failure and fed them diets that varied in protein level and phosphorus level. The groups with severely restricted phosphorus lived longer than the groups with normal or high levels of phosphorus. The protein intake made no difference at all in longevity. . . .
"It is important to remember that phosphorus is more important than protein -- feeding vegetables or salt-free crackers to a dog in kidney failure will not add protein but it will add phosphorus."

*Dietary Protein and the Kidney* by Patricia Schenck, DVM, PhD, Veterinary Nutritionist
"High protein diets cause an increase in blood flow through the kidney (glomerular filtration rate). The myth has been that if the dietary protein is restricted, this will make the kidney work less, and will 'spare' the kidney from damage. Thus in the past, many have recommended low protein diets to 'protect' a dog from developing kidney disease. This has been the focus of considerable research over the last 10 years. There has been no scientific evidence to support this theory. The feeding of low levels of dietary protein are NOT protective against the development of kidney disease.
"Reducing dietary protein in the older pet will not protect them from the development of renal disease. In fact, reducing the protein in the older dog's diet may have adverse effects. As pets age, their ability to utilize nutrients decreases. The older pet actually requires a higher level of protein to maintain its body stores of protein than does the younger adult dog. . . .
"Dietary protein restriction is appropriate in renal failure when the disease has become severe. Restriction of protein is based on the appearance of clinical signs. It has been recommended to start protein restriction when the dog's BUN (blood urea nitrogen) is greater than 80 mg/dL [28.6 mmol/L], and the serum creatinine is greater than 2.5 mg/dL [221 µmol/L]. Both BUN and serum creatinine are good indicators of kidney function. Protein is restricted in an attempt to keep the BUN below 60 mg/dL [21.4 mmol/L]. Dietary protein may need to be gradually decreased over time as renal failure progresses."

*Effects of low phosphorus, medium protein diets in dogs with chronic renal failure*
"In this study, 60 dogs with early CRF were fed either Medium Protein Diet, (CMP group) or a home-made diet (HMD group) which respectively contained 0.36% phosphorus, 27% protein, and 0.38% phosphorus, 21.5% protein on a dry matter basis, over a 28 week period. . . .
"From the results of this study, it can be concluded that many dogs with mild to moderate CRF can benefit from early diagnosis of the condition and dietary management using a diet with a low phosphorus and moderate protein content."

*Dietary Protei*n by Dr. Jeff Vidt, specialist in Chinese Shar-Pei and Renal Amyloidosis

"Increased levels of dietary protein do not seem to change rate of progression of kidney failure. Protein levels in the diet do not seem to affect mortality, rate of progression of uremia or the development of kidney lesions.

Decreased protein levels in the diet may impair immune responses, decrease hemo-globin levels, cause anemia, decrease total protein levels and result in muscle wasting. . . .

Dietary protein levels do not appear to be involved in the progression of renal disease or play a role in the prevention of kidney failure. . . .

When the BUN is greater than 75mg/dl [26.8 mmol/L] and/or signs of uremia develop, moderate protein restriction is indicated to decrease the BUN and the clinical signs. Phosphorus restriction is also indicated at this time."

*Protein Restriction and Kidney Disease Extracts *from Kirk's Current Veterinary Therapy XII, with links to a number of abstracts:
"In perhaps the most noted clinical trial examining effects of high protein diet on progression of CRD, groups of dogs diagnosed with CRD were fed either high protein diets or low protein diets. No significant difference was observed in the rate of progression of CRD in the high-protein group compared to the low protein group. Therefore, excess protein in the diet did not appear to compromise renal function even in the presence of high endogenous levels of protein associated with the disease. In fact, on an individual basis some of the CRD dogs in the high protein diet group faired better. This finding was postulated to be associated with the fact that protein is required for cellular repair and function."

Note that the above sites are from very traditional sources, including Purina and Iams. I think Hills is the only company still toeing the "low protein" line. The thinking now is that low protein can actually be harmful, and that a moderate amount of high quality protein is desirable for dogs with kidney disease. In addition, feeding reduced protein to dogs with normal kidneys does not help prevent kidney failure.

See http://lpi.orst.edu/infocenter/minerals/phosphorus/ for (human oriented) information on phosphorus and what excess levels in the blood do."

*Lots to digest! marj *


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## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

Marj--thanks for the info. Atleast some of these articles refer to research that has been done, but we do not get to see the actual research. What is the sample size? What is the control? Is the study replicable?

I know that I am obsessive about the research, but my background leads me to respond to evidence based studies. 

Regarding anecdotal information--I love it and it intrigues me, but it also makes me look for the evidence to support it. 

Are there any science or research people on our forum that would be interested in performing any nutrtional study?


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Marj, thanks for all the excellent info! Some of it I had already come across but it it is all very very good info. I wish more people would read this.


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Marj - this is very timely - I was just at the pet food store and the clerk was trying to convince me that my elderly dog would do much better on a low protein because of his kidneys. As I said before, he's been on EVO and looks as good now at 15 as he did as a puppy. I feel ribs, he's dancing for his food and he's walking as well as he can for a guy that's got slipping patellas and the start of a collapsing trachea. He could still audition for the circus with a bit of boiled chicken added to breakfast. LOL


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## mugsy & me (Feb 3, 2008)

after reading and researching some, i decided that mugs would do well on evo food.
he loves the 'wet' stuff and still ignores the dry kibble, tho he will eat it from my hand. 

i'm wondering if eliminating the grain might help his runny nose and sneezing...


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Wow Marj!!! thank you for all that research and sharing it with us. It makes me feel better-- as my boys primarily eat the NV medallions (jasper gets some extra veggies and potato) to know that the thinking is the high protein can not cause any harm. But what does this mean for Ricky? are you still keeping him on the Fromm's? 

I am experimenting with the ZIWI PEAK. Has anyone tried it? Jasper loves it. 
Cash prefers the medallions.

Oh and I just want to add--- I seem to do better on high protein as well-- since cutting out most carbs I am much less achy.


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## elregalohavanese (Jun 20, 2007)

*protein*

We used to have Great Danes and were always told to feed low protein foods (18 per cent or lower). Studies had shown that higher protein foods increased the incidence of bloat.?? We have always fed less the 18 percent with very good results. Susan


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

It's interesting, Susan, since I noticed there was some info on Great Danes and that large breeds really don't have problems with high-protein foods when they're puppies. It really depends on the source of the protein, whether much bone was included and how it was prepared. 

Missy, I have been adding Fromm's back to Ricky's diet. I still give the low protein (18%) Solid Gold Holistique, but only because I have quite a bit left. I add the Fromm's and even added a tiny bit of Orijen over the past few days. I truly think that it won't harm him at all. I've been reading more on this today and I love learning about it. It's fascinating, though at times the numbers and data get all jumbled up in my head and I have to take a break. lol 

One of the store owners, Jo Anne, is also still looking into all of this. They are firm believers in Orijen and she's very knowledgeable in canine nutrition. If it weren't so dang expensive, I'd feed it to my cats. I am going to try Horizon's Legacy for the cats though. it's another Cdn. made food, high in protein (and cats need even more protein than dogs do) and is more affordable. 

My goal is to get Ricky back on Orijen or at least a mix of Fromm's and Orijen with some raw thrown in for both of them from time to time. If I had the money and didn't mind the 'mess', I'd likely feed them raw full time, but it's just not practical for us.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

elregalohavanese said:


> We used to have Great Danes and were always told to feed low protein foods (18 per cent or lower). Studies had shown that higher protein foods increased the incidence of bloat.?? We have always fed less the 18 percent with very good results. Susan


High protein does not cause bloat. There are numerous possible causes for bloat.

Stress Dog shows, mating, whelping, boarding, change in routine, new dog in household, etc.
Although purely anecdotal, we've heard of too many cases where a dog bloated after a 3rd dog was brought into the household (perhaps due to stress regarding pack order). 
Activities that result in gulping air

Eating habits, especially... Elevated food bowls 
Rapid eating 
Eating dry foods that contain citric acid as a preservative (the risk is even worse if the owner moistens the food) 
Eating dry foods that contain fat among the first four ingredients 
Insufficient Trypsin (a pancreatic enzyme present in meat) 
Dilution of gastric juices necessary for complete digestion by drinking too much water before or after eating 
Eating gas-producing foods (especially soybean products, brewer's yeast, and alfalfa) 
Drinking too much water too quickly (can cause gulping of air)

Exercise before and especially after eating 
Heredity (especially having a first-degree relative who has bloated) 
Build & Physical Characteristics Having a deep and narrow chest compared to other dogs of the same breed 
Older dogs 
Big dogs 
Males 
Being underweight

Disposition Fearful or anxious temperament 
Prone to stress 
History of aggression toward other dogs or people


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## elregalohavanese (Jun 20, 2007)

*protein*

I apologize if you thought I said it caused bloat. At one time there were studies that indicated that the higher protein you feed your dogs, there was an increased chance of bloat. Of course, that was with larger dogs and a number of years ago. Those studies may have been long disproven. It was just a theory at one time. Of course, havanese are not prone to bloat anyway. It was just one reason people did not feed high protein diets. Susan


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

I feed mine NV raw but I cook it because I mentally can't get passed my concern that raw has more bacteria risk. But that's my concern, I have no clinical research to back that up. My question is why do we have to buy NV mediallions. Why not just cook up a bit of our own protein that we are having for dinner and feed it to the furkids? Is that just as good for them?
Carole
xxoox


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

YOu really shouldn't cook the NV medallions. They do contain some bone and it's not recommended to cook them. That comes straight from NV themselves. YOu could feed them what you are having for dinner as long as you give them a balanced diet and not just table scraps. 

Susan, I understood what you meant but just wanted to clear that up for others who might believe it's true. Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression.

Daniel


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Hmmm, ok, now I'm confused. I thought I read a couple of weeks ago that someone had called NV and they said cooking them only minimally affected the nutrients and that is was ok. I'll have to search back threads so I won't do something wrong.
So Daniel, you think that if they just had like a hamburger patty it would be basically the same as getting the NV beef?
Carole
xxoox


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Carole,

Your right, someone from the forum was told that cooking themedallions were ok because the bone fragments are so small in size anyways. Not sure if cooking up some raw meat would be as good though? I'm assuming NV is adding other suppliments?? I think so?? Daniel??

Ryan


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

ok guys.. dogster.com forums has a HUGE forum on Raw Feeding! I've been looking through this for a couple days now and it looks great. Lots of knowledgable raw feeders on here. Obviously the majority of the posters are pro-raw, but still a very valuable source of info I think! Alomst 2,000 threads on raw feeding with over 25,000 msgs.. 

http://www.dogster.com/forums/Raw_Food_Diet

Ryan


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Beamer said:


> Carole,
> 
> Your right, someone from the forum was told that cooking themedallions were ok because the bone fragments are so small in size anyways. Not sure if cooking up some raw meat would be as good though? I'm assuming NV is adding other suppliments?? I think so?? Daniel??
> 
> Ryan


Hmm I could have gotten it wrong. I thought the poster from another thread said NV said it wasn't recommended to cook them. To be honest I'm to lazy right now to search for the post lol

Hey Ryan, I may end up going to the part today around 2 or 2:30. Although it's pretty cool out, I think the grass should be dry. I'm not 100% yet. If I'm going I'll send you a pm.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Hey, that someone was me. I wrote the company after Cash got sick. We are not convinced that it was the raw medallions that caused his infection-- But I had finally broken down and started feeding them the medallions raw for about 2 days before he got sick. It is possible that he got a protozoan (like neospora) from feeding the medallions raw-- but Jasper my other dog was fine so if he did get it from the raw it is more likely that his immune system was compromised to begin with.

But here is what NV wrote to me when I questioned cooking.



> Thank you again for taking the time to contact us at Nature's Variety with your recent experience with the Raw Frozen Diets.
> 
> After receiving your email, we referred your details to our staff veterinarian, Dr. Silver to see if perhaps, he could shed more light and offer any recommendations. Dr. Silver suggested that it's perfectly fine to cook the medallions if you feel more comfortable doing it this way. It's true that a small amount of micronutrients and enzymes are lost when the meat is cooked, but not enough to cause concern. In addition, the small, cooked bone fragments have no adverse effect when ingested. Without looking at the vet records for your dog, it's hard for Dr. Silver to say one way or another, but based on the symptoms, it's not conclusive that it's food related. Dr. Silver would be more than happy to look over your vet records if you'd like to get more information and make suggestions to you, as needed or perhaps better explain the treatment methods prescribed for your pet.


Carole, you could feed your dogs what you eat-- but you may have to add suppliments and add a little veggies as well. Kara is the expert on home cooking here.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Missy, I was just about to go find that thread you started and quote that. 

Carole, yes, if you are going to cook up food/meats for the dogs, you will have to find a way to add supplements, minerals and vitamins they would get if you cooked/or served raw the N.V. medallions/burgers. N.V. meats are made up of all kinds of veggies, fiber, bone, vitamins and supplements which provide a balanced diet to the dogs. 

If you were to replace a 1/4 or 1/2 of their food with 'human food', scraps or a stew that you cook up, you really should calculate how many and what amount of supplements you'll need to add to it. If you give human food as a topper, just to entice them to eat their kibble, then it's negligible and you don't have to worry about it. ... or at least, that's my opinion.

Yes, there are a few threads in the Alternative Diet/Food forum here if you want more info.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

When I think about it, that makes perfect sense. I think I'll stick to the nv raw, lol.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

..... bumping,.......

View attachment 21668


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## havanesebyha (Apr 25, 2007)

Marj I responded to another thread about dog food but don't know where it is now ~ I switched the girls to Orijen based on the recommendations of a breeder I know. I am totally happy with their food just need to find a good topper (canned something).


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

here is a good article on protein. 
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=protein_myth


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Oh boy, here I go again..........back to the Petstore! I've been looking for the right food, since my guys could lose a pound and are picky. I've been through every food under the sun, but I keep coming back to the Evo. Maybe I will add some of the wet. At least I have the protein thing right. I guess I will also pick up some Origens, for them only to turn their noses up to it!:frusty:


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Hey,
They liked the Origens! Thanks Marj.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

My two are doing very well on the EVO. I was buying them the Red Meat Small Bites, but the last 3 bags (the smaller bag) have been the chicken. Seems the stores don't carry the red meat all the time, but the chicken is always available. What I have noticed is their stool is much firmer and they don't poop as much. Also, a lot less butt baths. 

Kodi has gained some weight, but I don't think it is from the kibble. Some very bad people that live in my house feed him table food and cookies. :frusty:


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## Lunastar (Feb 9, 2009)

I'm glad I'm not the only one obsessed with food. I've always thought high protien just makes more sense for both dogs and cats. I did not realize ash was problem for dogs. I do know that high ash content for cats can cause crystals to form in the urinary tract. Learned this the hard way.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Good article, Dave. Thanks!

Cats are even more carniverous than dogs so they really do need a high protein food. Glad your 'kids' like the Orijen, Linda! There is also Acana which is a little bit lower in protein, but still higher than the foods with grain. It has about 33% (Orijen is 42%) and what I like about Acana, is that there is a Lamb/Fish formula and a Lamb/Apple formula. I think it's a good idea to switch around their source of protein from time to time and for those dogs that don't tolerate chicken very well, lamb is a great alternative.

Michele, I think those "bad people" need to get their hands slapped! :suspicious: ound: Nothing wrong with giving good 'table food', but if it's not included in the dogs' daily amount of food, then it can help put on the pounds as you know. Man, I dont' know who is harder to train - dogs or family members !! :frusty: Evo is a bit higher in fat than most other no-grain foods so we really have to watch the quantity we give.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

marjrc said:


> Good article, Dave. Thanks!
> 
> Cats are even more carniverous than dogs so they really do need a high protein food. Glad your 'kids' like the Orijen, Linda! There is also Acana which is a little bit lower in protein, but still higher than the foods with grain. It has about 33% (Orijen is 42%) and what I like about Acana, is that there is a Lamb/Fish formula and a Lamb/Apple formula. I think it's a good idea to switch around their source of protein from time to time and for those dogs that don't tolerate chicken very well, lamb is a great alternative.
> 
> Michele, I think those "bad people" need to get their hands slapped! :suspicious: ound: Nothing wrong with giving good 'table food', but if it's not included in the dogs' daily amount of food, then it can help put on the pounds as you know. Man, I dont' know who is harder to train - dogs or family members !! :frusty: Evo is a bit higher in fat than most other no-grain foods so we really have to watch the quantity we give.


Right on Marj!


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## TobyBaby (Mar 8, 2008)

So complicated!!!! Toby rejected NV medallions. We've had him on Instinct, which he likes ok, and sometimes I give him Taste of the Wild Salmon to switch up the protein source. I have had trainers insist he should have some wet, especially since we live in a dry climate, but I have yet to do that. 

The breeder sent Lucinda home on Artemis Small Breed with some chicken broth added and the addition at breakfast of some Natural Balance Lamb formula. Those don't seem to be on the top of anybody's list.

This is stressful!! And I actually have dogs who seem perfectly healthy with tootsie roll poop. I can't imagine how stressful it would be if that weren't the case.

I hear conflicting reports about the tartar issue with kibble vs wet as well. Arrgghhh.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

TobyBaby said:


> So complicated!!!! Toby rejected NV medallions. We've had him on Instinct, which he likes ok, and sometimes I give him Taste of the Wild Salmon to switch up the protein source. I have had trainers insist he should have some wet, especially since we live in a dry climate, but I have yet to do that.
> 
> The breeder sent Lucinda home on Artemis Small Breed with some chicken broth added and the addition at breakfast of some Natural Balance Lamb formula. Those don't seem to be on the top of anybody's list.
> 
> ...


More info from Sabine LOL

4. Debunking the myths
Incorrect information about wet food ranges from simple misinformation to outrageous old
wives tales. Let's have a look at the facts!
"Kibble keeps the teeth clean and exercises the jaws"
First things first-cats and dogs are not "chewers", they do not have the type of teeth with flat
"grinding" surfaces required for significantly reducing the particle size of their food like for
example humans and cows. They also have no lateral (sideways) movement in their jaws to
help the process. The natural way of eating for dogs and cats is to rip at their prey and tear
out chunks which are then mostly swallowed whole. Bones are gnawed and crushed, again
without any lateral movement of the jaws.
What truly exercises the jaws and keeps teeth clean is the friction from gnawing on tendons 
and bones (or, as the case may be, a good chew toy, regardless whether it's edible). The
much touted "scraping action" of dry foods only happens if the dog actually "crunches down"
on the pieces of food, and only around the top of the molars, but not the canine teeth or incisors,
and not where cleaning is most needed: at and below the gum line.
The "cleaning action" of special dental kibble comes from its larger size (the pet is forced to
"chew"), higher fiber content, and often also a specific coating that changes the chemical
composition of the saliva. Sadly the ingredient quality of these products and their nutritional
composition leave a lot to be desired.
How easily your dog's teeth stay clean is also very dependent on genetics. Just like people,
some dogs just accumulate plaque and tartar more quickly than others and need extra help-
no matter what they eat. Unfortunately my own dog is one of the more unlucky individuals,
despite eating a raw diet with plenty of bones to gnaw on his teeth need frequent attention
and were even worse to keep clean when he was still eating kibble five years ago.
I always tell my clients to pay close attention to their dogs' teeth no matter what they are
feeding, and to start my recommended maintenance program for dental and gum health if
they aren't doing it already. Keeping your dog's mouth healthy is one of the best things you
can do to extend his life, since chronic inflammation and infections spread toxins to all vital
organs through the blood stream


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## TobyBaby (Mar 8, 2008)

> I always tell my clients to pay close attention to their dogs' teeth no matter what they are feeding, and to start my recommended maintenance program for dental and gum health if they aren't doing it already.


That makes sense. What, if I may ask, is the program referenced here?


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

TobyBaby said:


> That makes sense. What, if I may ask, is the program referenced here?


Hi Kim, this info and the dental recommendations are from my consultation with Sabine.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

davetgabby said:


> More info from Sabine LOL
> 
> 4. Debunking the myths
> *"Kibble keeps the teeth clean and exercises the jaws"*
> First things first-cats and dogs are not "chewers", they do not have the type of teeth with flat "grinding" surfaces required for significantly reducing the particle size of their food like for example humans and cows.


I've had a hard time with the concept that wet food could be better for their teeth, but with this information, it is starting to make more sense. I have had a few dogs/puppies that get car sick and can attest to the fact that they are not chewers. When the kibble comes back up whole, and inflated by stomach moisture, it is pretty obvious they don't chew their food. LOL

And it is definitely true that genetics plays a role in the tartar too. Having dogs of different lineage in my home that eat the same, it is very obvious that some families are much more prone to the build-up on their teeth.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Another thing about eating kibble that can sometimes be worse for dogs' teeth, is that it more closely resembles us humans eating granola or cereal, where you almost have to brush your teeth afterwards to get the sticky stuff off. You know how you can sometimes still be picking Raisin Bran out of your teeth an hour later? lol

The wet food doesn't have this problem and the high quality wet foods are actually very good for most dogs. 

Kim, I buy the Nat'l Balance Lamb Rolls and use it as a mix to their food sometimes, but mostly as a training treat. They go nuts for it! Yes, there are some ingdts. that aren't the best (wheat flour and bran, sucrose and some salt), but they are minimal compared to the lamb meat, lungs, hearts and meal. A one-pound roll lasts us about 3 months.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yes Marj and Kimberly, I hear you. Somewhere else I read that the sticky nature of kibble can also cause it stay on the teeth. I can attest to that , when you pick up a handful of kibble ,it leaves a residue on your hands that is hard to wash off. I used to give Molly peanut butter but since she has a bit of tartar I am leery of it. We know peanut butter sticks to the roof of your mouth .LOL


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## TobyBaby (Mar 8, 2008)

Thanks for all the information everybody! I think I'll work through my bag of Instinct, which at least seems to be the highest rated kibble, and start with adding in some wet for now.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Question:
So the boys mainly get dry food. I add a tiny bit of boiled chicken, and crumble a little bit of Natures Variety freeze dried on top. After reading Dave's article, should I add a spoonful of wet food to the dry to add moisture? If so, what kind of wet do your Hav's like. I think Marj mention Evo? Keep in mind, Fred is a pickster! 

Marj,
Bella only eats that Lamb flavor Natural Balance roll! I can't stand her eating something so bad, but it's better than her starving herself.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

You don't HAVE to add wet, Linda, if everything is going o.k. now. I can do anything to Ricky's food and he'll eat it... raw, cooked, dry, wet and any combo in between. I love it! He trusts his momma. :biggrin1: Sammy is our picky one, though he seems to prefer bought raw (not my homemade mix so much) and Acana Pacifica, but I'm almost always adding a touch of something, cottage cheese, that Lamb Roll, crushed dried liver, a tiny bit of canned. Nothing too different or he will not eat it. :frusty:

IF you don't think adding a bit of wet will mess things up, then go ahead. Otherwise, they will get their moisture from water and that's o.k. too. A good quality canned that I like is Merrick's as the food is in whole chunks, bone in sometimes that I can mash with a fork and sometimes, though rarely, the EVO. Chicken leftovers get used too.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I guess I will keep it as is. I leave water out at all times and they seem to drink it often. I've tried the Merrick, but Fred and Bella don't like it much. It looked so good with all those chicken wings, I would have eaten it!

If the boys liked the raw, I would prefer feeding it. They were on Primal for years and then 1 day, refused to eat it. I swear they changed something. They hated Prairie, but loved Steve's Real food. I just can't get that here....figures.

I wish I could find Acana. Cindy, Scudders brothers mommy, told me about it awhile ago. I search and search, but can not get it around here yet. I guess it's new or something. My guys love lamb, so I can't wait to try it. If they like it, I will alternate between bags of Acana and Origens. I think the Evo contains too much ash at 11%.

FYI. Boys went to the vet and they are not quite a pound overweight. Yippee! I guess it wasn't the high protein packing on the pounds.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

........ bumping......... Interesting read!


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

WOW, I came a long way! I am happy to be back on the high protein raw Thanks Marj.


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## Lilysplash I (Jul 19, 2007)

I always like reading everyone's opinions about dog food. My dogs really like Evangers canned food, especially the whole thighs. I use this on their mixture of Origen and Innova kibble.


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## Sandi Kerger (Mar 18, 2009)

Marj- I have tried Horizon dog food - when we first got Fipsy she was on it, as that was what the breeder was feeding her, but we switched to raw, and I much prefer that. 

Sandi.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

........ :bump2:


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## havanesebyha (Apr 25, 2007)

Hi All,

After attending the Grooming Seminar at Nationals I have decided to switch food again. I now feed Orijen and I guess is too high in protein and affects their coats. I will be shopping for something in the high 20% protein range and had a couple of great breeders tell me what they use. My girls love Orijen but really


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## mintchip (Apr 19, 2007)

Libby what food did you decide on for your girls?:ear:


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## havanesebyha (Apr 25, 2007)

Hi Sally,

I haven't yet as Kohana got so sick with a blockage in her intestines this past Tuesday. I am thinking of Billjack that was recommended to me by a great breeder who I totally trust. I let you know once I change


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## mintchip (Apr 19, 2007)

:grouphug:Get well soon Kohana:grouphug:
How is she doing now?


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## havanesebyha (Apr 25, 2007)

She is about 80% back to normal. Thank you Sally!


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