# To neuter or not???



## dotndani (Mar 19, 2007)

I am really confused.. 
Do you need to neuter your dog.?/ Is it necessary?Can someone please fill me in on the pros and cons of neutering?
Thanks


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## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

I don't understand your confusion, If you don't plan on breeding your dog it should be neutered or spayed. This is the simple answer.


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## CapotesMom (Apr 3, 2007)

Good subject to start. I'm really torn on whether or not I want to do it to Capote too.. On one hand there's the positives of it.. It will make him calmer later on with less possibility for aggression. He'll be less likely to mount and it's healthier for him in the long run. The only reason I wouldn't do it is if I decide to show or breed him and both of those I'm still not sure if I'm wanting or willing to do. It's a really hard decision..especially at this stage in the game.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

If the dog wasn't sold as breeding stock (or with show or breeding potential), can I ask why you wouldn't want to neuter your puppy? 

Neutering a male makes things so much easier.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

I think the biggest problem would be the marking. Unless you want to keep a belly band on him all the time. My daughter was going to keep her dog intact, but tomorrow he is going to be neutered, because he is lifting his leg all over her house. Hopefully this will stop it.


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## CapotesMom (Apr 3, 2007)

And if you do it soon enough he'll never lift his leg to pee..which is another positive. Capote is a candidate for breeding..and the fact that I paid so darn much for him makes me think about it..lol. The positives far outweigh the negatives when it comes to neutering. I'll probably do it..he has about 70 percent chance of being neutered..


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

CapotesMom said:


> Capote is a candidate for breeding..and the fact that I paid so darn much for him makes me think about it..lol.


Do you plan to show Capote? Breeders can look at a pup and make a judgement on whether the dog has show potential, but from what I understand, that isn't a guarentee that the dog should be bred. By showing the dog in the ring and competing against over dogs you will see from an impartial judge whether the dog has good conformation. You will also need to do the appropriate health testing to be sure the dog is clear from genetic problems that could be passed on to their puppies. Breeders also need a good mentor and do plenty of research in advance. There's so much involved! I know our pups can be expensive, but that is money well spent for all the work that's been done to assure that they are as healthy and well adjusted as possible. 

Gee, I forgot to add... their are many reasons to neuter and only one I can think of to not. My dogs have always been spayed and I've never seen it as a disadvantage. (only had females here)


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## CapotesMom (Apr 3, 2007)

There's definately a LOT that has to go into breeding...even showing. Most of the time I think I'm crazy for even thinking about it. But I am, so it's the only thing that makes me hesitant about neutering. If I decide not to breed him then he'll definately be neutered.

Oh..and I may be going to my first show in May..so I'll get to see how that world is then..and probably make my mind a the same time.


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

If you decide not to show/breed your puppy, I can't recommend neutering enough. First of all, if you ever go to the dog park other dogs, big dogs, that have been fixed can/will go after your unneutered dog. I have seen it happen too many times and a little guy doesn't stand much of a chance against the big ones. I had all my dogs and cats fixed, as it makes for a much better and happier pet.

Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## dotndani (Mar 19, 2007)

I have no plans of breeding or showing my Hav. I just kind of feel that's it's a surgery,and with surgeryt there are complications.
As for marking,I have spoken to several people who have had or have male dogs that have been neutered and they still mark there territory.
I guess it's a subject that needs to be discussed and researched some more since this will be my first time owning a dog.
Thanks for the input all!


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## dotndani (Mar 19, 2007)

Reece,
I hope you understand that I am not saying anything bad about anyone.Breeding is a wonderful thing and my hat goes off to the breeders that churn out those wonderful puppies that we are fortunate enough to buy.To heck with whatever other people think!
Like I said before,I never have owned a dog before so all this is new to me.Please help me out if you can,if I don't get my pup neutered,what is the worse case scenario?Will he pee on everything?Will he be aggresive?Will it change his behavior? I am just searching to find out what is best for my family and our new puppy.I know I am ahead of the game,but I'd just like to know.
Thank you for your input!


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I am not sure how "aggressive" a Havanese can get, but when I had my last adult male (he was kept for show and breeding so he was obviously unneutered) he did get much more assertive as he got older. He pushed open the front door to my motorhome twice to chase after Bull Mastiffs. Once he almost got the Mastiff, which set him off, of course. The Mastiff owner could barely keep him under control. My male became more fierce about defending his territory - and trying to ward off other dogs that were also unneutered.

I was also warned to not take my unneutered males to dog parks where they may be other unneutered males because our Havanese are so small and larger dogs may be the ones to become aggressive. I'm not sure how much truth there is to that, but after watching how my own small male was acting, I didn't really want to risk putting myself between a large dog going after my unneutered male. We just stayed out of public places where dogs are allowed to be free. (My dogs are also never allowed in the front yard even though we have a very strict leash law.)


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

If you have a contract with your breeder were you given a choice as to whether or not to neuter? Our contract stated that ours were "pet" dogs and therefore were to be spayed. I am a firm beleiver in spaying or neutering so I would have had it done regardless but I am just curious. I thought most contracts stipulated such. 

Both of our girls came through their spay surgeries like champs. No complications.

I couldn't imagine breeding but I'm sure glad others are willing to do it. It seems like an enormous amount of work. Just the paperwork alone has to be crazy (researching who would be the best mate, tracking cycles, registration paperwork, vet visits, etc). Now, playing with puppies is a distinct benefit. I'd rather be able to go play with puppies and then go home. 

When I was little (many moons ago....) we had an intact male, minature dachshund. He was a champ at digging under the fence to disappear for a day or two. That was scary. 

Susan


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Dotndani, no complications here. Oreo is very sensitive, as he reacted really badly to the rabies vaccination. I was worried that there would be complications but he came out just fine. As a matter of fact, he acted as if nothing happened and it was hard to keep him from running and jumping. If you are not breeding or showing, neuter your dog. My first dog, was never neutered and it was such a pain to clean up after all of his marking. Besides it really smells and is unpleasant. The mounting was incessant and annoying and finally he ran away, so if you are not breeding your dog, I seriously say to neuter him when it is recommended by your vet. I was 9 yrs old when I lost my first dog and this was heartbreaking despite all the nuisance. When my parents got their pomeranian, I was 15 yrs old and I pushed them to neuter him, so that he wouldn't run away. He was pleasure to have and he passed away due to old age. I feel very strongly about this because you can avoid a lot of heartache.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Life is much more peaceful for the dog and the owner if he is neutered. The surgery is really not that big of a deal to the dog. We kept a 13 month old last weekend who was neutered early. He still squats to pee and was kept in the house with a female in heat who was being kept separate from the intact males because she was going through a rest cycle. In spite of the females best efforts he only showed mild interest and never attempted to mount her.

The country is full of intact male Havanese that some breeders have sold to people with the idea that other people will want to breed to him. In reality, few will breed to a male, other than their own, who is not some TOP show dog. There are hundreds who are finished Champions that don't get any breedings.

The problem is that dogs can't show until after they are 6 months old and the decision really needs to be made before then to preempt the hormones kicking in.

I would say that a dog needs to have REALLY GREAT potential as a benefit to the breed to be considered for leaving intact. Also there are not that many people who really understand how to foresee this potential.


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## CapotesMom (Apr 3, 2007)

Wow you guys..all of you make a strong case to neuter..which pushes the chance of me doing it to Capote up to about 80% now..lol. I definately want him as a companion..and if that means putting it over having breeding stock or a show dog, so be it..I got him to be my buddy, after all. 

Also, Reece...I know EXACTLY how you feel. ALL my friends and family think I'm crazy for paying what I did for Capote..and he wasn't even as expensive as I've seen for others. I tried to explain to them that they're a rare breed and its hard to find one thats adoptable and so on and so forth..but all I hear is 'I got my cocker for 250' ...and 'I got my beagle for 400..' ..well..good for you. Thats your puppy and you love him, but I don't want a cocker or a beagle..I want something that fits my lifestyle, and it so happens that it's a breed that's not as common as a cocker or a beagle. 

Capote's breeders didn't have a statement about not breeding..they said it would be ok if I did breed him. They had another puppy from their daughters litter that they had a rule of not breeding though because he had cherry eye when he was younger. So they are responsible breeders, just with no stipulation about not breeding Capote.


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## dotndani (Mar 19, 2007)

Thank you all for your input.I guess I didn't even bring up the issue with my breeder.I made the vet appt for next week and I'll also bring it up with my vet.Sorry if I annoyed anyone,and thanks for all your input on this topic. 
4 more days till we get Duncan!!!


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

We have almost always had male dogs and all but 1 was neutered.I think neutering a male makes them a much nicer dog all the way around.They are not trying to hump everything in sight,they are more loving and calm and just relaxed.They do not feel as threatened by other dogs,making them more social too.They are cleaner too.My Vinnie is 2 and neutered and still squats to pee-Quincy is neutered and will be 1 soon and he still squats to pee.There are health benefits for the dog as well.I think the vet can tell you all the benefits far out weigh the risk of the surgery itself.
I think what really happens to a person is you get your puppy and you love it so much that you don't really think about what is best for the dog-it is more of a thought process,like I love him so much,wouldn't it be neat to breed him and have another one just like him?Etc.I think we are all guilty of that,and of course we think OUR dog is just perfect,he fits the standard,he is prettier then most etc.but reality is something different.Everyone wants the perfect havanese specimen to show or just for a pet......but so few are really "it".If a person had the perfect hav,it would be a breeder who has tried to improve the breed over many years.Just my opinion....


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

dotndani said:


> Reece,
> 
> if I don't get my pup neutered,what is the worse case scenario?Will he pee on everything?Will he be aggresive?Will it change his behavior?
> Thank you for your input!


Yes to all of the above! My standard poodle Romeo (my cream male in my signature picture) was absolutely the best and easiest dog that I've ever owned. I mean NO issues at all. He was fully potty/house trained the first day I brought him home. I took him outside once and he was done. He was the best behaved puppy at the park with total recall from the start. He also played the best with all the other dogs. Well, my hubby didn't want to have him fixed, so long story short at 12 months he started exibiting aggressive behavior toward the dogs he played with before. Domminance, aggression and starting fights for seemingly no reason. So, finally at 18 month I got him neutered and I swear he knews exactly what happened and was sooooo mad!!! He was behaving much worse for a while, but has slowly gotten better. He is not 2 years 9 months and I still can't completely trust him with all the dogs, as there are still things that will occasionally set him off, so I have to keep a tight reighn on him. He is under voice control, but still has his moments at the park.

Kimberly - you are right not to take your intact male to the dog park, but truth be told it's large unfixed males that will go after your intact male. I've seen several incidents where fixed males go after the ones intact (my dog included). I've even seen a Miniature Schnauzer go after an intact Boxer.

Yeah, I am a big fan of fixing dogs if they are not for show/breeding, nor would I ever feel comfortable about bringing my unfixed male or female to a park.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Interesting Julia! I didn't realize that a neutered dog would go after one that is still in tact. Looks like the studs get to stay home for sure.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Dotndani, if I did sound annoyed - that was not my intent, sorry if that was the case. I am sincerely happy you are getting your pup - it is such an exciting time. Please consider all that we have said here, it simply does make life easier. If you choose to breed him, imagine all that is entailed, the testing of both sire and dam to know for sure what it is you have and then the whelping and raising puppies - quite a lot of work in my estimation. And then finally, placing them into loving homes. Having a buy back option, in case it does not work out to prevent the pups from getting dropped off at the local shelter or even abandoned. Aside from the male nuisances that come with the territory, there are many others to consider. But that is my opinion. I wish you and your pup all the best.


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Havtahava said:


> Interesting Julia! I didn't realize that a neutered dog would go after one that is still in tact. Looks like the studs get to stay home for sure.


Actually it's quite scarry!!! Last month we had a new dog at the park, an unfixed male Golden - unfixed. The second my Romeo saw him, he went after him and there was a fight. Nothing major, mostly noise and the owner just laughed and said he was used to it...huhh?! Next thing we know, another standard poodle, the sweetest little guy of 18 months goes after the same Golden. This young dog is so sweet, I never even heard him growl before. I definitely agree about keeping your intact males at home.


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## JodiM (Dec 28, 2006)

On top of all the really good points already made, I do want to state that some breeders have a clause that states that if you breed your animal, the pups then become their possesion...not to mention, if you only have Limited Registration- any dog your male breeds to will not be allowed to get 'papers' through AKC (If you have a female, her pups can't get AKC papers)

Unless you plan on showing in conformation, and then breeding, you AND your dog are better off getting him/her fixed.

Keep in mind that breeding isn't what you think it is, it takes a LOT of work and dedication. In addition to what Tom said about people not using male's for stud, keep in mind that the majority of the time that when a breeder does use someone else's dog for stud, it's done through artificial insemination (sp??), which I'm sure as you can imagine isn't an easy process with a dog.

You *might* get lucky and get someone who wants to stud to your dog, after he's been showed, health tested, etc.. and will use the old fashioned method of breeding- but then you have a whole different set of variables to look at. Are you going to send/take your dog to them to leave for a bit? Or are you going to take in someone else's female? (Good luck with that one, because most breeders wont let their dogs go, especially not a championed female)

Keeping your dog intact is not easy, there are lots of steps you have to take to be a responsible breeder. If you did show your dog, got champion for him, and had him health tested... your out a lot of money. Stud fee isn't that high, even if you get a puppy back, you'll be lucky to break even. (and chances are, unless you have a huge demand for your dog's stud "service", you will probably end up in the hole quite a bit of $)

Even a female being bred doesn't make a lot of money.. I know it seems like it, but in reality, most breeders barely break even, unless their breeding tons of dogs, and then the profit margin isn't very high.
The cost of showing, testing, AI breeding, vet visits, ultrasounds, possible C-Section, vet visits for the puppies, shots, micro-chipping, de-worming, BAER testing on pups really adds up. Add your hourly wage (what you would make working outside the home), times that per hour you spend with the newborns/mom, and you have a expensive puppy. 
I'm sure I'm forgetting other things too.. that's just what I could think of off the top of my head.

The bottom line is that breeding is hard work, and if you do it right, it's expensive, AND time consuming. 
If you don't plan on breeding or showing in conformation, then get your animal fixed. It is better for the animal, and easier on you (especially if you have a male)

If you want to show, you can always show in agility, obedience, etc.. without having your dog intact.


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## RickR (Feb 15, 2007)

Max was neutered about a month ago, he's now just a little over 6 months old. I've noticed the last week or so that when we go for walks on the power trail he has started lifting his leg to pee when he wants to mark...doesn't do it all the time though and never lifts his leg at home...Is this normal? I thought once he was fixed he wouldn't lift his leg.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

dotndani,
It is healthier for the animal overall and it prevents unwanted puppies from coming in this world. Look at all the new laws that many states are trying to pass that will prevent all dogs and cats to remain intact. I am surprised that your breeder doesn't require you have the puppy fixed unless you bought a show potential puppy. 

If you don't neuter your dog, are you prepared for an accidental breeding with a dog in the neighborhood?


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## dotndani (Mar 19, 2007)

Oh,I hope you all don't think I intend to breed!!!!That is most certainly not the case!!! 
With my 2 children and husband and now a new dog I will have tons on my plate,and breeding is definitely not my intention!!!
From all I have read here and all the other research I will be getting Duncan neutered.
Funny story,hubby says why get him fixed,my reply,it's either him or you,you decide who's getting snipped!!!LOL!!   
Thank you all for you support and input.I am already starting to worry and I don't even have Duncan yet.
I am so glad I found this forum.
THanks again!!


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## boo2352 (Dec 18, 2006)

RickR, my golden is 13 years old and was neutered at 6 months. He still "marks" occasionally on his walk. Sometimes he lifts his leg a little, other times he just squats. He never lifts his leg at home, and it's been kind of amusing to see him squat and mark -- usually nothing comes out because he never got the concept of saving up. His brother, who was neutered at the same time, never lifted his leg (and often ended up peeing on his foot!)


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## sky (Mar 31, 2007)

Hi Everyone,
Great points on the side of neutering. I would like to offer a few more: 
1. Eliminates risk of testicular cancer
2. Castration is especially simple operation
3. Frustrating for dog to be pent up with all of this sex drive and instinct to wander.
4. You risk your pet dog getting loose and getting injured or creating random bred pups (unless you are a serious breeder and have a good set-up for ensuring security).

Life is much simpler for you AND your dog if he is neutered. Why have the hassle if you are not going to breed him?


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Sky - great pro spay/neuter summation. It very clear and to the point, I couldn't agree with you more.


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## SHOWDOWN (Dec 17, 2006)

NEUTER! JUST WHEN I THOUGHT I WOULD GET BY WITHOUT NEUTERING. MY BOY AT 10 MONTHS IS STARTING TO MARK ALL OVER THE HOUSE. AT FIRST IT WAS EVERYTHING OUTSIDE NOW IT'S EVERYTHING INSIDE. ON TOP OF ALL THE OTHER REASON'S I'M MAKING MY APPOINTMENT IN THE MORNING.


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## dotndani (Mar 19, 2007)

I called my vet and asked how much neutering was and was informed that it's 282.00 plus 30.00 for the meds.I also asked about microchipping and that's 57.00.Does that sound reasonable?
How much was your bill (if you don't mind me asking?)
THanks!
Dot
p.s
I also asked if Duncan has to stay overnight,and they informed me you bring pup in the am,and pick up by dinnertime.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

There is a whole other thread about the costs we all paid for our dogs' neutering, but I just can't find it.  There are a lot of variations!

I paid $160 or so for Ricky. He was to stay overnight, but I finally convinced my vet that I would care for him much better than him staying in a cage with no one at the clinic all night long to watch him. They say it's to keep them calm that they stay overnight. I'm sure Ricky felt much calmer being home with us than alone over there!!  They had also wanted to take him the night before surgery so they could assure he didn't eat or drink .. that's two nights away. I don't think so. Other vets around here did allow us to get him the same evening, but I was glad I talked my vet into it seeing as we've been going there for years. 

Sammy, who was neutered two weeks before we got him, had his done in Ontario and it cost $160 or so as well. Someone wrote in she paid over $400 while others, Tom I think, pay as little as $50-$60. Go figure!

Good luck, dot!


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Here are some links you can check out from other threads here at the forum......

http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=472&page=7&highlight=neutering

http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=409&highlight=neutering

http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=516&highlight=neutering


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## dotndani (Mar 19, 2007)

Marjrc,
Thanks for the links!


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Dot, that sounds almost exactly what I paid for Logan, including the microchip. It must be the east coast going rates.
Laurie


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

it only costs around 80.00-85.00 here to neuter a dog.from some of your prices-I'm feeling lucky,or I'm feeling cheap.......


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

In cities like NY and SF the prices for anything and everything is much higher than in other parts of the country. 

Dotndanie - the estimate that you got seems about right.


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## dotndani (Mar 19, 2007)

Hey maybe all of us that live in the east or the west should all move to the central part of the U.S. and everything may be a little cheaper.LOL! 
The price is what it is,so I guess we just have to accept it.
3 more days for Duncan to come home,YIPPPEEEE!!!!


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## sky (Mar 31, 2007)

dotndani said:


> 3 more days for Duncan to come home,YIPPPEEEE!!!!


Hang in there, Dot!!! I can't wait to here all about it!


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## CapotesMom (Apr 3, 2007)

nooo...don't move to the midwest! ...cause then our population goes up and our prices do too! Shoo fly! Stay on the east and west coast!


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Hey Dot........be sure to take alot of pictures of your little new family member.....some of us have to live through you exciting people!


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## SHOWDOWN (Dec 17, 2006)

dotndani said:


> I called my vet and asked how much neutering was and was informed that it's 282.00 plus 30.00 for the meds.I also asked about microchipping and that's 57.00.Does that sound reasonable?
> How much was your bill (if you don't mind me asking?)
> THanks!
> Dot
> ...


GO TO SPAYUSA AND THEY WILL DIRECT YOU TO A LOW COST VET FOR SPAY OR NEUTERING. MY VET GAVE ME A 250.00 PRICE AND SPAYUSA PUT ME IN TOUCH WITH A VET THAT WILL DO IT FOR 80.00. I HAVE A APPOINTMENT FOR MONDAY.


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## CapotesMom (Apr 3, 2007)

went to spayusa...there's no website there for it...care to send the direct link?


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

dotndani,
It cost me almost $800 to have my 2 fixed and microchipped at my vet. Then someone told me that North Shore Animal League has a low cost spay/neuter program. My daughter just had her 2 Dachshunds done on Tuesday, and it only cost her $170 for both (not each). One was also microchipped. 

You should definitely contact them when you are ready. The only requirement they have is a visit with the vet for $25.00. Then dogs under 20 lbs. it is $50/$60 depending on the sex. Her dogs are doing great.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Showdown,
Don't know where you are on Long Island, but NSAL has a great program. See my reply to dotnandi, below.


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## SHOWDOWN (Dec 17, 2006)

CapotesMom said:


> went to spayusa...there's no website there for it...care to send the direct link?


WWW.SPAYUSA.ORG


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## dotndani (Mar 19, 2007)

One question if I may.So I have an appt for Mond with a vet that Duncan will be seeing for shots,appt,etc.So if I go somewhere else to get Duncan fixed won't the vet ask where I went and why I didn't go to him for the procedure?
Just curious???


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## SHOWDOWN (Dec 17, 2006)

irnfit said:


> Showdown,
> Don't know where you are on Long Island, but NSAL has a great program. See my reply to dotnandi, below.


I'M IN MORICHES EXIT 69 LIE. NSAL IS ABOUT THE THE SAME PRICE I GOT OUT HERE 80.00 THANKS THOUGH


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## SHOWDOWN (Dec 17, 2006)

dotndani said:


> One question if I may.So I have an appt for Mond with a vet that Duncan will be seeing for shots,appt,etc.So if I go somewhere else to get Duncan fixed won't the vet ask where I went and why I didn't go to him for the procedure?
> Just curious???


 I'M NOT GOING TO MY PRIMARY VET HIS FEE WAS 250.00 AS OPPOSED TO 80.00 FROM ANOTHER VET I HOPE HE UNDERSTANDS


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## dotndani (Mar 19, 2007)

So what age was your pup fixed? I just read an article that says pups can be fixed as early as 8 weeks,but most vets stick to 6 months and the average age of being fixed is 4 months.It says that when done earlier the pups bounce back quickly.I was just wondering what you all have to say about this.Thanks all!!


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

As a breeder, I don't agree with early spay and neuter. There has been recent research that shows more negative then positive in doing it before 6 months of age in regards to the better health of the dog. Shelters do it at a young age more because they have to, but that shouldn't send a message to all that is best. 

Many prominate HCA breeder's use to "fix" their puppies before placing them. Now though, they too don't agree with doing it at such a young age.


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## dotndani (Mar 19, 2007)

well thanks for your reply.


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## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

dotndani: The pup in your new avatar, is that your new baby? Very adorable


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

dotndani,
I would just tell him that you think his fee is too high and you are going elsewhere for the spay/neuter. Maybe they will work out a different rate for you. This is still America and you can use whoever you want.


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## dotndani (Mar 19, 2007)

Sam's mom & anyone else that is interested!!
Yes the pic in my avatar is Duncan at about 5 weeks old.Isn't he a cutie pie??
Thank you to all for your input about the neutering topic!!
TOmorrow is when Duncan is coming home.I will post some more pics as soon as I can.WOOHOOO!!!1 more day!!How very exciting!!


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## JodiM (Dec 28, 2006)

Oh, he is too cute!!

I hope you can sleep tonight!!! 

We bring our new baby home on Sunday, and I'm already getting nervous!


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## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

All these new babies, they are all so sweet, I'm sooooo jealous and suffering terribly of "MHS". Good luck with the new ones.


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## Jan D (Mar 13, 2007)

Good luck dotndani and Jodi...can't wait to hear all about it! 
I'm so excited for you!


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## MaddiesMom (Apr 1, 2007)

Duncan is such a cutie-patootie! Post lots of pictures. I'm curious to see how his colors change as he gets older. Chocolate havs are so darling! I'm excited for you!


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## EMarie (Apr 11, 2007)

As a vet tech, I will tell you the other side of neutering your dog. On the health side of it, you will reduse his chances of testicular cancer, enlarged prostates and prostate abcess. All which are very painful. We had one dachshund that was almost put to sleep because he could not walk but when we checked his prostate he was as large as a grapefruit and we neutered him and he walked home. So besides beging breeding stock or not and what breeders want us to do there are health reason behind neutering our males. There is a whole different diseases that can get our females.
I hope this is a little helpful.


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## amymjd (Dec 22, 2006)

*getting my girl spayed*

I took 7 month old Lucy in to her vet today and they told me to bring her back in two days to have her spayed. OMG! I know it's the right thing to do because I won't be showing/breeding her, but I don't know if it's right not letting her have her first heat. My puppy class teacher told me to let her have her first heat first, but the vet disagreed. Anyone been through this? Amy


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

I am with your vet, get your girl neutered before her first heat, why put her and yourself through the misery when you don't have to. There is absolutely no reason for her to go through her cycle and why would you want her bleeding all over your carpets?


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## Suuske747 (May 9, 2007)

*the risk of early neutering*

hello all, just by chance I came across your forum and this post.....and I feel so strongly about this, that I signed on and had to respond.

Yes, neutering in females has its benefits.... decreasing risk in cancer, no unwanted pregnancy.... it is said to do this at 6 months....some even do it much earlier.....
But what they don't tell is that there's a risk in growing to large....hormones are being interrupted from doing their work....
If you look at the stage of development of the 6 months old dog.......would you sterilise your 4 year old infant? Or even your 12 year old child, before it has matured? It is simply the same!

The dog is not fully developped....very important hormones are taken away too early!
Also, if your dog is its insecure stage....which they all have around that time.....there's a high risk that your dog gets stuck in in......

And I can say this from experience.....my Sierra has become stuck in her insecure stage......and she is not the only one it happend to.....she is one of several females it happened to........and my breeder has now put in the contracts that females need to have been in heat twice, and males need to have started lifting their legs....
Then the dog is fully developed, and the health risks of cancer etc are still very minimal....

please do think about this......

edit: and we do know the pain and effect of mamory cancer, our other dog Dinky has already had 2 operations, that is the reason why we had Sierra operated, but we did it too early....


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## EMarie (Apr 11, 2007)

Ok, Well there are a few ways to look at this, the medical standpoint is that the fewer hormones result in a much decreased risk of developing mamory cancer ( which is more rampid than people think ), pyometra, and uterian cancer. So it all depends on what you want to deal with. I spayed my female at 4 yrs old and my 2 yrs old is not spayed yet. But my other dogs I fixed at 6 months. Being a vet tech gives me a much different view of things, if you are going to breed the dog then let her go through the heats. What the thought is now is if they are used and bread then maybe the risk decreases, but that has not been proven. So use your best judgement, find a vet you trust and ask your breeder. Then make your own decession. I have not seen anything that has determined that they do not mature to their expections but there is a whole lot of external stimuli that also play a major role into the dogs development ( both male and female ). So you just need to find people who you trust their oppinion. Good Luck!!!!


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

My other dogs were spayed/neutered at 6 mos. One lived to be 17 yrs and the other was 16 yrs. They died of "natural causes", meaning no horrible health problems at all in the time I had them.

So, that is why I chose to have my Havs done at the same age. Hopefully, I will get the same outcome with them.


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## Heather (May 30, 2007)

Help!! So what happens if you neuter a dog after it's a year old and already lifting it's leg, marking, hunching, and sniffing any female that walks in our house. Does it all stop?


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Heather, I can't answer your question about males and if it helps stop the marking, etc. But hopefully, someone can come help

Amy,

I chose to wait until Gucci was more mature, and the hormones had a chance to do their job, like suuske747, I am pretty much of the same school of thought. I talked to my vet, and my breeder, researched whatever I could find regarding the pros and cons, and made my decision. The "heat" (she is actually in now) really isn't that hard to deal with. She's a little moody, and i have to keep her away from other dogs, but I feel I made the right decision.

I think it is very important to spay/neuter if you aren't going to breed. However, the timing is what seems to be controversial. Some vets feel strongly about 6 months, others, are more concerned about early spaying to prevent pregnancies, because some people might not take all the precautions, etc.

If you are feeling uneasy, express your concerns. My main reason for waiting til' she is hormonally mature, is to let her bones fully develop, and her personality, womanhood, etc. all those things that hormone production does for a species. I"m confident in my decision.

On the flip side, plenty of people have spayed early and don't have any problems whatsoever, such as chrondodysplasia, hips, and other bone related ailments.

The chance of cancer does go up if you wait, but the statistical risk didn't seem that much higher to me.

Weigh the pros and cons, and what is best for you and your dog, and talk to the professionals. My vet and breeder are both supportive of my concerns.

Kara


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Heather said:


> Help!! So what happens if you neuter a dog after it's a year old and already lifting it's leg, marking, hunching, and sniffing any female that walks in our house. Does it all stop?


Heather,
I do not know whether it will stop...but it will certainly help the situation,along with a verbal correction.I have always had male dogs and only 1 marked outside,none in my house.My male hav was neutered at 6 mo.and he has never marked inside or outside and still squats to pee...he is currently 17 months old.I also have a male sheltie that was neutered at approx. the same age,and he too,has never marked or lifted his leg to pee.He is a squatter!He is approx.2 1/2 yrs.old.When you say "hunching" I assume you mean humping?Neither of my boys are allowed to do this(though on occasion they have tried).They are verbally scolded for this behavior.....not because of any other reason other then I wouldn't find it funny if we had company and they did this etc.I would be embarrassed myself.I do not think this is just a male trait though---plenty of forum members have mentioned females humping...perhaps it is just the animal world as it is,not particular to any certain sex.


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## Suuske747 (May 9, 2007)

Kara, I personally am very relieved you made this choice, I wish I had been informed and made aware of it before I made my decision, I had to find out the hard way, and there's no way I can ever undo it to Sierra....but I can make others aware and prevent it from happening to other Hav's, like Gucci, I am so happy for Gucci!
I know it hasn't been easy, but when you think about it, it is so logical....
Give Gucci a big hug from me!


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Julie, Ricky is about the same as Quincy. He was neutered at 6.5 months, is now 14 months old and still squats to pee. He never marked. Sammy, on the other hand, started lifting his leg, just a wee bit, around 6 mths., his previous owners told me. He was neutered at 7.5 months and I'd say ever 2nd pee lifts his leg. It is the funniest thing!! His scrawny leg lifts up about an inch or two off the ground, no matter where he is, like in the middle of the yard and he pees. I LOL every time! Sammy will also mark here and there, depending on where we are, but never at home.

I've seen Sammy start humping Ricky about a month ago. Not often and he does it slowly, but it's a power thing I'm sure. Ricky has always humped, still humps and will likely always try. lol We say 'down' and 'no' every time and will even roll him over but he still tries. Ah... those Cubans.......  LOL


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## CapotesMom (Apr 3, 2007)

*No behavior problems, why should I?*

Capote is going on 7 months now and he's settled in to the new house well. He doesn't mark, he's not aggressive to other dogs or people, he doesn't try to hump everything within a 2 foot radius, so I'm wondering if I SHOULD get him fixed?? At first I was all for it. I thought he could only get worse and getting him fixed would only stem unnecessary hormones and behavior...but he hasn't subjected me to either.

So my question is, if he's not acting like a horny aggressive and unruley teenage boy, is there really any need to get the procedure done? I like his activity the way it is and I don't want him to settle down any more than what he is already..he's not a very crazy dog as it is. He has his puppy spasm RLH fits, but he'd have those after he was neutered as well..


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

He is still really young,so the behavior that you don't want might still show up. My standard poodle's macho behavior didn't manifest itself until he was a year old. Also, if you take your pup to a dog park and let him play off leash, it's also a good idea to have him fixed, as fixed males do go after unfixed ones. Just something to think about.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Beamer is not displaying any of those traits that you mention either, but still had to do it as its in the contract I signed. Also, Capote is only 7 months.. He could start all these bad habits in a couple months time.. Most vets/breeders say to neuter 6-12 months of age anyhow..

Don't you have to have Capote neutered anyhow as per your contract?


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## CapotesMom (Apr 3, 2007)

Nope..there's no contract on Capote from the breeder. He's champion bloodlines and full akc registered, but if I ever bred him or anything like that I'd do it the right way; not just go willie nillie. He'd be tested and showed and all that good stuff. The breeder knew that when I bought him.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

So you bought Capote as a show dog? It's unusual for a breeder to leave the neutering decision up to the buyer. I wonder why they did that? If you have no plans on being mentored by a longtime Hav breeder with a good reputation for health testing and breeding Capote, then I'd recommend neutering him. The 'humping' behavior might start, but it has nothing to do with sexual urges anyway. Most of the time, it's simply a status thing, a dog trying to show it is the alpha in the 'pack'. 

Capote could display aggressiveness around other males, like Julia said and the marking would then become an issue. 

I'm no expert, so I dunno.... lol


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## CapotesMom (Apr 3, 2007)

I'm sure it just depends on the breeder and what they're comfortable with their contracts. P I could never see breeding capote. Maybe stud him out if I showed him but studs are one in a million..or at least..one in a lot for show dogs. lol. As far as starting a kennel or something to breed. HA..like I have the time. I can just stick around enough to give Capote and Sinatra the attention they require..nevermind 6 hyper puppies with hourly needs. Newp..not for me. lol

So far he gets along great with male dogs..not big ones though. I haven't tested him around big male dogs, only small ones. They wrestle and play and have a grand old time. The other male starts out a bit wary but after a few minutes of Capote jumping all over him to play, it starts to loosen up. heh


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

I agree! With all the work that is involved, I don 't see myself breeding!! LOL 
Well.... the dogs that is, not me! But then, I don't see ME breeding anytime soon either!!! LMBO


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