# Help with Hav Aggression and my Daughter



## havajava (May 1, 2008)

My havanese pup is just shy of 6 months old. I plan to have him neutered at 6 months (not sure if that's important, but wanted to add). I have a very intelligent 2 1/2 year old daughter with a mean streak. She is usually really great with him, but sometimes she gets rough. 

He has just started to growl and nip at her sometimes when she pushes him too much. I know this is a normal reaction on his part, and I try my very best to keep her from doing these things, but I don't always catch it in time. I am worried that he will develop an aversion to children, and I'm not sure what to do. 

Did I, pardon the pun, bite off more than I can chew? Should I re-home him now before he gets worse and is difficult to rehome? We really love him, but I don't want to see this get out of control. I am concerned for my daughter's safety, but maybe more than that, I'm worried about ruining a good dog. I do want to add that the breeder mentioned his mom is pretty aggressive, and planned to only have one more litter out of her because of this. I didn't know this until after we had him.


----------



## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Thats to bad that there is a problem between your daughter and Scout. Must be hard to manage a 2.5yr old child and a 6month old puppy.... Did your breeder offer to take him back with a refund? Not sure why your breeder is breeding the dog still if she knows she is very aggresive? 1 more litter? Might as well be 5... (I'm just kiddin.. )

Ryan


----------



## LuvCicero (Mar 31, 2008)

Your breeder should have told you that information "especially" if she knew you had a 2 & 1/2 year old daughter. I would be upset about that. Also, you daughter is at the age - like all kids - that she does not understand how to treat a dog at all times. I do think dogs just try to protect themselves if they feel someone is going to push, pull hair, hit, etc. I would hate for your daughter to be hurt and get fearful of dogs. I've also seen dogs be on the alert around any kids because of mistrust. This is a hard call. I think only you can decide since you witness how they both react with each other. You just have to try to decide what is the best for 'both'.


----------



## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

Hey Havajava,
I sent this to a person who was planning on rehoming her Maltese, for very similar reasons, and has now decided to keep her. It's fine that she decided to keep her, but I wanted her to know that there would be work for her to do...Please don't think I'm judging you by sharing this. When my son was three years old, he and my dane started having some "issues" and most of this advice I learned by making my own mistakes and by talking with people that had really great wisdom. I really wanted to keep my dane, so I did a lot of work and everything turned out for the best and he got to stay with our family and he and my son became great friends. Okay, so here is my lengthy advice! And remember it's only my opinion, like Dale said, this is really up to you and your family to decide.


> I don't think badly of you, I know how difficult it is. I really do. Thanks for getting back to me.
> 
> I do think that you are a great animal mommy and that maybe the timing has been difficult with your little one and such a little dog. Would you be open to going back to training with your Maltese? Actually, I don't know if you ever did take her to obedience, but I think every thing she's doing is really reversible if you really want to keep her. I'm sorry if I'm overstepping my boundaries, as I don't know you, and please take this for what it's worth-2 cents, as that's what my opinion boils down to. This is what I would do if I were in a similar position (and I was, sort of, with my dane).
> 
> ...


----------



## havajava (May 1, 2008)

Thanks everyone and Amy, your advice is great. I tried to take Scout to basic obedience puppy classes, but the trainer seemed to have forgotten that it was really a continuing obedience/rally class. I plan to get him started at another local class asap. 

I have no problem asserting my pack leader dominance, and am glad to know that this is something I should be doing in this situation. I do crate him when I know I can't watch what they are up to. I do want to keep him, and have no issues putting in the work, I just wasn't sure if I was on the right track or not. 

I don't feel judged at all-I am by no means perfect, and I am seeking advice so that I can do what is best for our family and Scout. 

As for the breeder-not sure she knew the issues until after we had spoken for Scout. She got the pg mama as part of a deal with another breeder. Anyway, not sure what happened there, but I think it's only part of the problem.

Does anyone think neutering him will help any?


----------



## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

Neutering does make a difference but you might want to wait a little while longer before you neuter him .. That requires trips to the vet and hands on observation and attention for a few days and right now you have enough going on .. 
It might be better to improve thee dynamics and behaviour first .. 
The important thing you need to pay attention to here is the age of your puppy and the age of your daughter .. They are both very young and they need some guidance , attention and help right now .. They need you to set some guidelines as to what is acceptable behaviour in a positive non threatening but serious message .. 
Your puppy is just starting to mature and assert himself and your daughter is going through the terrible twos .. You need to teach your daughter this is not OK to harass the puppy and she needs to be gentle .. You need to teach the puppy to be gentle as well .. 
You need some help here and not just to act as a referee .. You need to find a puppy class and read some books on puppies and their behaviour .. If you cannot watch them all the time they give your daughter and the puppy a time out .. time away from one another Put him some place safe in a crate or an X pen where you daughter can look but not touch .. 
You need to teach them mutual respect and appreciation . You need to teach the puppy the meaning of gentle and No Bite and you need to teach your daughter gentle and no when it comes to teasing the puppy .. 
Patience and persistence. Do not be afraid to treat them like you would with siblings .
These are very smart dogs and they will learn in time .


----------



## mintchip (Apr 19, 2007)

I know there is a video out teaching children how to "act" around dogs. I think it is by Dr. Ian Dunbar.
(just a quick thought do you think Scout smells food on your daughter.........this isn't meant to be mean but you know how messy kids can be when they eat.)


----------



## havajava (May 1, 2008)

I don't take offense to what anyone is saying  I do want to add that I am not by any means a new puppy owner. I raised a pom and had her for 12 years, and she was a great little dog. Now we have a GSP and Weim which are both behaved with no aggression issues. 
I think it's like you said cosmosmom-they are both in a time of learning what their boundaries are. I do let my daughter know what is and is not acceptable, but it only goes so far-she's 2!
As far as neutering him goes, I'm not feeling like I can't handle his needs when he comes home after that. He has a crate and enclosed back room, and I have a retired grandma who loves to spend time with her granddaughter, and a wonderful supportive husband  We can keep everyones needs met during that time  .
Thanks everyone for all of the help!


----------



## 3girlsluvHav (Apr 11, 2008)

*Same situation*

I've been meaning to reply to you b/c our Hav is 6mos and I have a 2.5 and a 4 year old.........it's a handful!  My 8 year old is great with our Hav and it's her baby. But when she's a school I do find it hard to keep their interaction always positive. It's my 4 year old that can get a tad physical with him when he nips (playfully) at her or he gets annoyed with her always trying to pick him up he will growl. He's never shown his teeth or tried to bite her ever- which is why I choose this breed b/c they are generally sweet little girls so I thought they'd be ok with the dog. I find I do have him in his xpen probably too much to keep them seperated. Plus he's not 100% potty trained so he does need to be contained. So I feel your pain------how are things going lately. I have been shopping for baby gates to give him a bigger area in our house but our house is really open so I'm not having much luck.....
Enjoy your day!
Alycia


----------



## havajava (May 1, 2008)

Thanks for the reply Alycia-I also chose the Hav partly because of their good nature with children. We are going back and forth on keeping him. 

He has a barking problem as well (had it since we got him) and we're looking into a better way to work on this. It drives me insane when I separate him from my daughter and he barks the whole time! 

He is set to get neutered this Friday, and I'm signing up for puppy classes after that. 

I think that he is doing a lot of the same growling reaction as your puppy. It so hard to decide if we are the right home for him or not. I just don't want to keep him longer and then decide he needs to be somewhere else. Not sure what to do!


----------



## 3girlsluvHav (Apr 11, 2008)

I do also keep hoping it will get better- waiting for the puppy stage to get better- we got him neutered and did puppy classes too. The classes were really helpful b/c they are an investment (not cheap) so you can use them as a resource and ask "them" all your ?- they said to use a water spray bottle with the barking- and it works with Murhpy- but make sure the bottle has a stream option not just a spray..... He does not seem different from the neutering- just a tad more at ease- which is good. Doc said neutring will help keep them where they are & not get worse. I am just going to stick it out and keep him contained- we will put him on our bed at night when we get the girls to bed and he's really good on the bed- at night when the kids are in bed he cries if he's not with me- such a baby. I am here to vent it you need it!!


----------



## havajava (May 1, 2008)

I can spray him continuously and he doesn't stop-it's awful. He doesn't do it all the time, just when he can hear/see us and wants to be with us. He has so many great things about him for sure, and our daughter loves him. Thanks for the support


----------



## Eva (Jun 20, 2008)

I have a 4 yr old son who LOVES Todd...a little too much sometimes..lol
Todd tried growling at him a couple of times when Aiden was pushing him to far but we quickly stepped in and stopped the behavior. 
If Todd growls we instantly "Sssht" him and step forward into him so that he has to back off. If he growls while sitting on a chair with Aiden he gets dumped INSTANTLY on the floor. 
It's worked great for us. They just need to know that under NO circumstances are they allowed to be agressive. 
Training our 4 yr old has been a little more difficult....
Teaching Aiden boundaries has been a long road and takes a LOT of time and energy...he's learning that when he is too rough he doesn't get to play with Todd...basically we say "You're grounded from Todd", Aiden cries and acts like the world has ended but he is more considerate of Todd's space the next time.
It takes time and patience to train (dogs and kids) but in the long run it's worth the work. 
Oh yeah...as far as barking goes, Todd is 5 months and he's going through a yippy stage too. He barks at any little noise, people, dogs, leaves blowing in the wind, ect........
I've heard that it's pretty common at this age and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that he outgrows it...


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I've been through all of this with my dog and my son. It's taken a long time, but they are finally friends. Make sure your daughter takes the dog outside to pee and feeds her as well. The dog needs to know that he can look to your daughter as somebody who takes care of him. If you crate the dog, have your daughter take him out of the crate in the morning. It might take some time. Obedience training helps too. 

The other factor that has effected us is that my dog is very much a mamma's boy. He is very attached to me and views my son (and my husband to some extent) as competition. If that is the case with you, try and distance yourself from the dog a bit and have your daughter pick up the slack.

It was really touch and go with us for a long time, but I am happy we kept Gryff. 

Good luck.


----------



## havajava (May 1, 2008)

Thanks for the tip on the barking. With Scout, he has done this kind of -come here and do this for me now, demanding barking- since we got him. I talked to the breeder about it, and she didn't think I was being firm enough with him, so came out for a home visit. I reassured her that I can indeed be firm with him.  I hope the current barking is just a phase!


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

If you really want to keep the dog instead of passing the problem onto someone else I would recommend some. training. Look up Sirius Dog Training to find a good trainer. You made the mistake of not watching your daughter around the dog. The dog should not be reprimanded for growling , it is giving this as a warning signal. You do not need to Dominate Your dog to be a good leader. Neutering your dog with not change its behaviour. The only thing neutering does is change the way other dogs react towards your dog. If you want to learn more read anything by Ian Dunbar Jean Donaldson Pat Miller Patricia McConnell. Definitely goes for some training , it you want to keep the dog. Do Not Leave Children around any dog unsupervised even a Havanese.


----------



## havajava (May 1, 2008)

davetgabby said:


> If you really want to keep the dog instead of passing the problem onto someone else I would recommend some. training. Look up Sirius Dog Training to find a good trainer. You made the mistake of not watching your daughter around the dog. The dog should not be reprimanded for growling , it is giving this as a warning signal. You do not need to Dominate Your dog to be a good leader. Neutering your dog with not change its behaviour. The only thing neutering does is change the way other dogs react towards your dog. If you want to learn more read anything by Ian Dunbar Jean Donaldson Pat Miller Patricia McConnell. Definitely goes for some training , it you want to keep the dog. Do Not Leave Children around any dog unsupervised even a Havanese.


Wow, some strong opinions. I want to respond to a few.

First of all, the dog and my daughter were not unsupervised when he growled and bit her the first time-I was sitting very near them.

The reality of having children and watching them with a dog every single moment of the day is not realistic. I do not leave them totally unsupervised-if I did, I would not be near enough to be hearing him growl at her. These incidences have happened when I am within 15 feet of them, which is not difficult in my tiny house 

If you read my posts, you will see that I do plan to take him to training, starting in a few weeks.

I bought this dog from a reputable breeder, who knew I had a young daughter. It was not my fault that I was sold a puppy that came from a mom who is aggressive-I did not have knowledge of this when I bought him.

I love my dogs, but I do not believe all dogs are meant to be in homes with children. If I were to re home him, all of his behaviors would be disclosed to any potential adopters. I do not think it is in the best interest of our puppy or our child to keep him if his aggression continues to escalate. What kind of life would it be for him to have to constantly be separated from us in a pen, yard, or crate? I'm certainly not going to crate my daughter so he can be free to roam with us.

The point is, I am not the bad guy here-just trying to find some solutions and support so that I can make the best decision for my family and our dogs.


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

havajava said:


> Wow, some strong opinions. I want to respond to a few.
> 
> First of all, the dog and my daughter were not unsupervised when he growled and bit her the first time-I was sitting very near them.
> 
> ...


All I am saying is that you can not blame the breeder or the mother for the dog's behaviour. With training and supervision this problem can be rectified. It sounds like you are giving up too easy.


----------



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

First, I think genetics honestly has a lot to do with temperament and having a breeder who is knowledgeable to pick the right puppy for your family is priceless. Early socialization is also a huge part both what you do with the puppy and what the breeder did. However, kids will be kids. This summer I took my 7 month old puppy to visit my sisters who are 3 and 5. While they don't have their own dog, they have cats. My puppy was socialized with children from an early age. He enjoyed my sisters but they could be a little too much. Actually the 3 year old was way better than the 5 year old! They fought more about his toys and his accessories but I could see how he could get injured or growl to send a warning but with just visiting for a few days, it never got to this point. I think training will help you but it might be too much for you and your family at this time. That isn't a horrible thing or saying your family is right for a havanese, it might just be bad timing. While I was only with the little girls for afew days, I realized right away how exciting the puppy was and how I needed to show them how to interact with him. The three year old listened the best and she was the official ball thrower. I taught her to ask Dasher to sit and drop it and she had a blast showing everyone his tricks. It also was a safe way for them to interact and have fun. It also didn't involve chasing or taking things from the puppy.


----------



## isshinryu_mom (Mar 23, 2008)

Hi Scout's Mama :wave: 

Roxie did not respond AT ALL to being spritzed with water either (suggested by our first trainer.) But a small can filled with a few coins is enough to get her attention. I rarely have to use it now (at 9 months) but it was a real help in getting her to listen. And while some "trainers" don't think a shaker can is a good idea either... well, it worked for us. You have to try different things, watch how your dog responds, and find something that works for both of you. 

I commend you because, from your original and subsequent posts, it sounds like you are asking for input out of as much concern for your dog as your child. I think it is wise for you to realize that the longer the issues you describe go on, the more difficult they might be to correct. It sounds like you are trying to make a loving, humane decision. And only you can make the decision that's right for your family. I would say, give it a bit of time if possible. With some consistent work, I saw huge progress in Roxie and you won't make your dog too hard to rehome in just a few months I wouldn't think.

Good luck! Let us know how it is going and keep asking for suggestions.


----------



## havajava (May 1, 2008)

Thank you Amanda and Ann. I am not someone who gives up, and that IS why I am here asking questions  I have a rescued Weim, and know that it takes hard work and time to train a dog. I think we have decided to try and work with him some more. He is in most ways a joy to have around.

And to Dave and Molly-I do not blame the breeder-I am a friendly acquaintance to her, and think she is a great person and breeder. I just wanted to be clear that I did not go out and say " hey, this mama is aggressive, I want a puppy from her". It is what it is, and now I'm trying to make the best decisions I can. 

I really don't need to be told that I am giving up or passing on a problem. I just want friendly advise from fellow Havanese owners. Thank you!


----------



## LuvCicero (Mar 31, 2008)

It is almost like you have two 2 year olds playing together. At 6 months Cicero was doing a lot of soft biting and we had to work on 'no bite'...that's a puppy thing. He got much better in 6 to 8 weeks. Teething will also make them puppy bite. It's tough to give advice when we are not around to watch the interaction, but I think you just need to work a little each day with your child and your Hav. Maybe tell your daughter it's her dog..her baby..and she has to take good sweet care of it. Maybe give her a cup of Cheerios to share with her 'baby' telling her to drop one on the floor in front of her Hav..eat one..repete. Hopefully the Hav will learn that she is a great treater friend. I do think you can do it !!! Just stay close...watch..and teach both. As the Hav gets a little older, I do think it will get better. You are the best judge!! Good luck.


----------



## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

A good hav friend of mine told me that havs go through a "teenage" streak at about 6 months of age where it isn't uncommon to get some growling/snarfiness. Quincy went through this with my son. My son was 5 when I got Quincy. I made a "hey" sound loud quick and firm and over the next few weeks,it all went away. I'd encourage you to hang in there,because it does get better. My son now at 7 can still be kinda rough with Quincy and so I watch him like a hawk...but I must tell you---my son is autistic and he "tough loves and squeezes". I do not fear Quincy biting him-but he still gets an occasional reminder.

You seem like you are trying and doing all the right things----neutering is a good thing for lots of different reasons,so I'd follow through with that as well. Hang in there---watch closely,correct when needed,and ride out the phase. You'll end up with a fabulous hav in the long run.:hug:


----------



## Roccos Mommy (Jul 31, 2008)

I have heard that this age is definitely one of the most difficult for puppies. 
They are bratty and test you constantly. The key is to stay firm, consistant and lots of obedience!! Of coarse lots of playing and walking helps too. I kinda expected things to get really bad at this age, so I haven't been too worried about my Havs behaviors. I just say to myself "this too will pass" when he is driving me nuts. 

I have a naughty no, I say "no" in a deep, firm voice if my Rocco does something very naughty. I also give a naughty no for whining, biting or other things he needs to stop doing. I definitely try not to throw it around for everything he does, only the "serious" stuff. I only say it once and then ignore him, or praise if he changes his behavior. He knows immediately that this is something he shouldn't be doing, but at his age doesn't always act like he does(it really is like a 2 year old child). I know he will respond more with time, from my being consistant and his maturity. 

I have a 2 1/2 year old boy, 9 year old girl, 15 year old boy, two semi-senile cats (15 and 16 yrs), two frogs, 5 mo. old Havanese and a 12 year old lab. I can tell you that it not always easy!!! Luckily my toddler son is very gentle. I think he learned early with the cats and our older Lab what my expectations are. I was very firm about his being gentle. My daughter on the other hand was much more rough with animals when young, so I think alot has to do with the child's personality. 

I set up our house in a way that makes it easiest for me to manage. Rocco, our Havanese, has a playpen for when I cannnot watch him and his behaviour or I need a break. After he potties he gets to run about and play for as long as I can manage. At this point he usually runs after the cats, jumps up on the Lab then decides to run around with anything he can find on the floor.:biggrin1: When I get too tired of following him around I put up the baby gate in our livingroom so he is a little more enclosed. He can still get into his playpen to potty, get a drink or grab toys. I have been gradually giving him more and more "free" time out of his playpen, but often with the baby gate up. Of coarse he also gets 1 to 2 walks a day to help further tire him out. 

Rocco is far from perfect. He is mouthy, whines when put in his playpen, harasses the cats and dog, asserts dominance with the kids occasionally. I just let him know that these things aren't alright, eventually it will sink in. I love him so much!!! I know with my work and attention he will be a wonderful dog. 

I work on the dominance issues by having the kids feed and give treats to the dogs. Never letting the kids play tug of war or roughly with Rocco. The kids handle Rocco gently while I supervise. If Rocco ever growls I say no and he is ignored after that for a while.  The barking shouldn't be responded to either. Luckily my guy doesn't bark too much at this point. But he can be quite the whiner. When I put him into his pen and know all is well (has food, water, toys and doesn't have to potty) and he begins to whine. I tell him "no" firmly then ignore. It doesn't mean that he stops and yes it is annoying. But eventually he will realize that this behavior doesn't get him anywhere. I only take him out when he is calm and quiet!! 

Best of luck!! 

Michelle n Rocco


----------



## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

Scout's mama,

Hang in there! Check with your vet about trainers in your area. Our vet has a training facility next to her office where they do all kinds of training, they'll even come to your house to work with your entire family and their rates are reasonable. I considered it because this is our first puppy and we don't know what we're doing! Timing didn't work for us though and we're doing a Petsmart class, 8 weeks for around $100 and it's been helpful. Scooter just seems to be getting better as he gets older though! (Unlike my teenage kids! LOL) I hope Scout's behavior improves but you sound like a very caring puppy-mama!


----------



## Mizell26 (Aug 2, 2008)

Well I am in your same boat....I have a 2 year old fixing to be three but we have two house dogs a chihuahua and a havanese. I just have to watch him very closely. I have had my chi longer than my hav. My hav does growl at him sometimes and I just correct her with a sturn voice. So far so good...I don't worry about him hurting her as much as I did the chi but the chi survived and runs from him anytime he gets close...LOL! But my hav is a serious lap dog and normally wants to growl at him when he comes in her space to get her and I tell him she is sleeping...I just use reinforcement for both of them and we are doing well. Good luck! I think it is manageable.


----------



## SaydeeMomma (Sep 9, 2008)

Hi Scout's Momma
I'm sorry you are going through this difficult time with Scout. I can tell by your posts that you are a loving, concerned parent to both your human and fur babies. There's been alot of great advice given here, and I hope that it helps and that your family will be more comfortable with Scout very soon. Don't be too hard on yourself and remember even the best training techniques take time. So many days I've second guessed training with my Hav Saydee, and then slowly but surely, things just seem to click. Scout is still just a puppy and puppies need lots and lots of patience. 

By the way, the avatar you have is absolutely perfect. Best wishes! :biggrin1:


----------

