# Are you worried about our breed?



## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

All: 

Let me first say, I do not want to offend, attack or accuse. Just really wanted to open up a dialogue.

There have been so many posts lately of ailments, temperment changes, and so, so, so, many new puppies some of who are having problems. Not to mention some iffy breeding situations. And it also seems that everyday there are more and more Havanese in Rescue. I am not a breeder. And I know nothing about the genetics involved to raise a strong healthy breed of dog. But I have noticed how many more people are bringing home Havanese. 

I realize we are all guilty of marketing the breed who we just adore, and the market is just responding to supply the demand...But can we do any more to educate the benefits and quite frankly necessity of qualified breeders? 
(I succumbed to just wanting a puppy with Jasper so I do understand)

Can we try sponsor more and better studies on health and diet just for our Neezers? Even the best lines have some issues.

And can we do any better to educate potential owners that the Havanese is not for everyone? should we temper our excitement over new members wanting puppies to explain the cons even if they don't ask? Can we do this so that there aren't more 1 and 2 year old Havs placed for adoption because they were not potty trained, or can't be left alone, or cost too much to care for. 

I am delighted that "Our Forum" has grown to the extent it has. That so many new people are joyous over "Our Breed" But I wonder where all these pupsters come from and how many more we do not know about are landing in pet stores. And as much as I love it that one of our own is on the cover of a magazine...I worry about the breed becoming too popular. 

Are the ailments popping up inherent in Havanese? Or is it just the more you know of the more you hear about? Could it have to do with over breeding? or just more and more novice breeders? 

So I throw this out there...Again, I really do not mean to offend in any way, or put a damper on anyone who has a new pup. I just want to start a discussion about a breed that has gone from being relatively unheard of to being the 5th most popular breed in NYC in the 4 short years I have owned my boys. 

Am I wrong to worry? Is popularity good for a breed?


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## Pixiesmom (Jul 31, 2008)

Missy, I came across this havanese kennel online the other day-that listed their new litter as black and brown (black and tan), white with brown spots (gold parti), white with black spots etc. Health testing?-yep, the vet wormed them-that is their idea of health testing. I also cannot get over the multitude of puppy brokers on the net and the celebrities-people who could buy any dog from anywhere- always seem to buy dogs from these people. Just pull up one of these sites and check the references-you'll see a smiling celeb with their undersized, newly purchased mill puppy. I almost started a thread about how hopeless the puppy mill situation seems. I guess the best we can do sometimes is just educate people when the opportunity presents itself. It makes me really appreciate the people who do it right. The future of the havanese depends on the breeders who know what they're doing and do it for the right reasons.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Could your work do a special on breeding?
Carole


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Yes, I'm worried.

Ever since the election, and I do think all of the 'press' attention on our breed, and hypo allergenic breed, and just the whole hoopla about the first family getting a dog was the start of increased interest, and our babes are still getting more and more attention the 'hypo allergenic' dogs in general..and Yes, I'm worried. 

I think some people are capitalizing on this and 'breeding' what they think are 'health tested' (seen a vet) in their minds and there will be a whole whirl of problems and increase in rescue dogs, I really predict it will be worse. 

Facts are, Havanese are a little harder to housebreak, as most toy breeds are in general)..granted, some havs, not so much..some regress well over the age of 1 and have 'accidents', they don't like being alone and they need lots of attention..

I can only hope that the majority of them are being placed in homes that are willing to deal with the special issues they need and extra attention they need. They ARE companion dogs and they do need companionship from us (or other dogs..)

yes, it upsets me to see what is happening right now. Makes me ill, actually. I don't think it is just our breed but a few others and I'm sure their groups aren't thrilled either.

(no offense intended! I haven't been on the forum much so I don't really know what is going on enough to spark this topic)

XO~


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I too am concerned.....it seems most of the dogs come from back yard breeders or people trying to make a buck. It's scary...not only for the breed as a whole,but for the unsuspecting puppy buyer. They have no idea what health issues can pop up.....my heart just breaks for those people and pups.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

I've been becoming increasingly concerned, too, over how many new Hav puppies are showing up, becoming better known, and coming from apparently not good breeders, or questionable ones. I love my Tucker!! I love the breed; it is hard to not boast about them, but they are gaining in popularity too fast to be healthy.

So, Missy, I know what you are getting at. But, what can be done about it other than supporting the good breeders that ARE out there and trying to educate the people "on the street" that we meet about using caution and good practices when talking about our Havs?


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Popularity has always been a big concern. When any breed gets popular, the puppy mills start cranking them out and more and more dogs are sold intact and used for backyard breeding or to provide one for a relative, neighbor, etc.

When it is a passing question, I still don't tell strangers I have Havanese. Now if they ask seriously, I do, but I try to talk about the breed in a balanced way, including the need for maintenance, potty training being more difficult than larger dogs, and need to be around humans.

As for people posting about ailments and health concerns, that's natural. People rarely get on message boards to only talk about the good. They are looking for answers and will search for a board that fits their needs (especially this one being breed specific) and share what concerns them in hope to get some help.


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## sashamom (Jan 12, 2009)

I too am concerned about the Havanese. Prior to purchasing my Sasha, I did alot of online research and also cleared it so that she is our office dog. She would be very unhappy being left at home. There is a pet store in my neighborhood that sells the Havs as coming from "a breeder". It makes me so unhappy to hear the sales pitch and the lack of knowledge they have about the breed. If I have to go there for any pet supplies (which I don't do often) and I hear them talking to a customer I alway give my "25 cents" worth of an opinion. But is it better to let the customer take the poor puppy home and maybe it will have a good life? Sorry for the soap box.


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## Jammies (Apr 4, 2009)

*This is a serious question. If I had a T-shirt made that said "Don't buy from a pet store in a mall, they only support puppy mills" and on the back says "buy from a reputable breeder" would I be thrown in jail? I would wear it at my local mall that has a Petland!

Would any of you come to visit me in jail and slide me a hershey bar in once in awhile?*


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

Debbie-I'd bake you a pound cake with a file in it!

I don't know much about breeding but the more I learn, the more dismayed I am. I look at the PET section of CraigsList every day to check for Havs and I'm sickened by the posts I see there. So many dogs are being given up because people say they don't have time for them! What did they think they were getting? Any dog will require care and love, they aren't goldfish that can left in a bowl and fed once a day. The other posts are the ones where someone wants a dog for their very young child! WTH??? I replied to a post once about dogs being chained and you wouldn't believe the vulgar, angry, downright nasty reply I got. 

Too many people view dogs as another possession instead of a member of their family. Until that changes I don't think it will matter much what the laws say.


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

absolutely. especially when gross places like this one in my area start selling hava-somethings and havs. makes me want to vomit.
http://amazenfarmyard.com/pages/puppies/puppies1.html


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## trueblue (Jan 22, 2008)

Posh's Mom said:


> absolutely. especially when gross places like this one in my area start selling hava-somethings and havs. makes me want to vomit.
> http://amazenfarmyard.com/pages/puppies/puppies1.html


That's horrible! How about the way they try to "fancy up" the pictures with the blue blanket? And there are SO many of them listed on there...where do they all live? Ugh. It really does make me want to vomit.


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Progress affects everything and it has the dog industry. With the internet advertisements and web sites you can even see your puppy on a live web cam, buy from a breeder that posts all the laurels of how great their dogs are, when in truth there are no awards or praise. It is just a puppy mill large or small, as long as the money is there so will the puppy breeders. People don’t take the time to do the research as to what is health testing and what is not. Most people buy a dog on emotion not on sound logic.

It is not just the Havanese breed it is all breeds that warrant a large price tag and are easy to ship.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

Posh's Mom said:


> absolutely. especially when gross places like this one in my area start selling hava-somethings and havs. makes me want to vomit.
> http://amazenfarmyard.com/pages/puppies/puppies1.html


 that website breaks my heart! "bargain puppies" ahhh how awful!

I just saw a post on Miami Craigslist today for 2 3 y/o male Hav brothers that they "can't take care of" anymore. I emailed them the info for the HRI. I hope there are some foster parents in our area (why do I feel like this will be me before too long...)


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## LilyMyLove (Jul 11, 2009)

I have been thinking about this a lot lately as although I am new to the breed, you can imagine how many questions I get being around town with a cute fluffy puppy. I personally did a lot of research before deciding on a breeder to get my dog from. I was fortunate to find someone caring and dedicated to the breed. Although I was not going to show Lily I found someone who provided genetic health testing results, and showed me proof of pedigree. I visited her home and her dogs. I can't say that I would have been as diligent about it if I did not have a mom and a brother who both purchased dogs from breeders in the last 5 years and knew what was important. 
People I meet seem to not be as aware as I was. They make comments about friends trying to find a breeder but "they were all crazy and nosy about their home situations". I can't imagine raising puppies that were the children of my dog and not being anal about where they would end up and how their lives would be. I have had people make comments about how they order dogs off the internet and then are shipped alone on 6 hour flights in the cargo hold of a plane. Its hard sometimes to bite my tongue when watching Lily play in a dog park and hearing people make these comments. 
I have so much enthusiasm for the breed but I always stress when telling people- They do get separation anxiety and like to be around their people. They are not low-maitenence dogs. I tried to explain this to one woman who replied "Oh well my friend has one and her dog doesn't" when I expressed concern about her having a 9-5 job and a very active social life. I hope I'm not being presumptious or snobby with these observations if any of you have different views on these issues. 
I'm sure being Havanese enthusiasts for longer than I you guys have plenty more stories of this nature. I recently heard a story of a couple who were owned a horse farm and wanted one. I was perplexed when they described how i would be a more or less "barn dog". While Havanese can be very active and more hearty than your average toy breed, in my experience they are not on the same level as a golden retriever or collie. 
When people do seem genuinely interested I make sure I stress the importance of finding a great, responsible breeder. I tell them what was important about mine. I think as an individual this is he best I can do to be a good spokesperson for these wonderful little creatures that cannot speak for themselves. 

I wonder if there is some way regulations and legal requirements can be made, and require breeders to have permits the same way restaurants do. If there was some oversight that would be great. I think the puppy lemon law in Minnesota is a great step in the right direction. Getting puppy mills and the devastation they cause in the press creates more awareness of these issues for the public. 
Unfortunately economically speaking anytime there is demand for a product (and thats what dogs have become) and "pupularity" increases there will always be people wanting to supply to that demand and do it in the most profitable way possible.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

This topic reminds me of the HRI article in the Havanese Hotline this month, the "1,761 Miles and home at last" about Harry.. The articles starts off:

_"Are you interested in fostering an 11 month old neutered male? His owner cannot stand the fact that he velcros himself to her, is under her feet all the time, wantes to go into the bathroom with her, and dances around her on his hind legs...imagine any Havie doing those things? LOL".._

As much as I love our breed, they aren't for everyone and take a certain kind of commitment that goes a bit beyond feeding, letting out and heartworm medication..

It is really reassuring to see this forum as a pit stop for serious potential Havie parents, and I do see that there are still people doing their homework and finding out if the breed is right for them, but when they are ending up in puppy shop windows, so very cute....there isn't a manual that states they are under foot all day long and won't let you go to the bathroom alone. lol..
I do think its wonderful that there is so much info on here to new owners, I just have a feeling that HRI will get busier and busier..


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## Pixiesmom (Jul 31, 2008)

trueblue said:


> That's horrible! How about the way they try to "fancy up" the pictures with the blue blanket? And there are SO many of them listed on there...where do they all live? Ugh. It really does make me want to vomit.


I agree Kim, and I like the deal of the day-like a blue light special!!
Poor dogs!!!!!!!!!!


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Well the good thing is there are still great breeders out there who are going above and beyond for the breed. Unfortunately if people buy havs from pet stores and back yard breeders, they will produce them (especially with the price tag they sell for!) The pet store near me shut down cause people weren't buying. So the best we can do is spread the word. I mean if you just look at this forum, think how many people have purchased dogs from those with no health testing, mill type situations, and even shipped and didn't see where or how their puppy grew up. And I would say being on a forum itself, makes you a lot more dog knowledgeable than the average family.

I was at a dog show last weekend and had both Dora and Dash there and there were a lot of people who wanted to meet them and learn about the breed. I just show people the difference and hopefully that helps. Dora is my pretty little girl but personality and structure, she is very different than Dasher. Price wise, she wasn't much cheaper either!

At the same show, a woman approached me and asked me if I had a cruton. I thought it was her accent and looked puzzled. But a few minutes later, she thought Dora was a Coton de Tulear. I had to let her know the breed didn't have an R in it! She then came and introduced me to her little one that she bought off puppyfind. She didn't even know how to pronounce the name let alone do any research. A lot of people are see it, want it now, and get it for cheap. Unfortunately that mentality comes with puppy mills, internet purchasing, rescue, and a lot more.


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## margaretandluigi (Mar 12, 2008)

A friend of mine has a personl vendetta against pet stores and puppy mills. She has been undercover several times for news programs and law enforcement. She discovered that under Ohio law, people selling puppies are required to collect (and pay to the state) sales tax. Any time she sees someone with a sign in their yard advertising puppies (we have a few "regulars" in our area) she reports them to the department of taxation. Several of these "breeders" have stopped breeding (or at least have stopped selling puppies via a sign in their front yard).


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

Yes...............I am also worried. Count me in on the vote.


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## tabby2 (Jan 19, 2009)

margaretandluigi said:


> A friend of mine has a personl vendetta against pet stores and puppy mills. She has been undercover several times for news programs and law enforcement. She discovered that under Ohio law, people selling puppies are required to collect (and pay to the state) sales tax. Any time she sees someone with a sign in their yard advertising puppies (we have a few "regulars" in our area) she reports them to the department of taxation. Several of these "breeders" have stopped breeding (or at least have stopped selling puppies via a sign in their front yard).


Margaret, I love your friend! Talk about a "this is how you get Capone" take on things -- fabulous!!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

We all hate puppy mills and this forum does a great job of making that argument against them to newcomers. I was hoping someone could shed light on besides the bad things, are there good things that come from a breed being so popular? Are Golden's so popular because they are good natured/ healthy dogs or are they good natured healthy dogs because they are so popular? Does more research happen when a breed is popular? I assume a good breeder learns something new with each litter about the line's health, temperment, etc. Is there a silver lining?


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

Missy, I think your question is great. Being on the forum will encourage so many pet owners, the association of the forum and good care and pride in the breed are wonderful assets, not to mention the rescue part of it. It all begins with education.
Do you know the 7 states known to have the MOST puppy mills? 
About research, that is a tough question. Getting a data base for research and having the information on the dogs in the pedigrees are basic starting points. The PWD is one group who has a fantastic research/health program, actually the only one I know of, but they had to start with breeders who contributed time, money, facts to establish it. One of the things that made it work, I understand is that there were not that many dogs involved, it was relatively easy to trace back, not that many breeders, etc. I could be wrong, but think I am correct. Just a point of information. I think the larger, more popular a breed is the more difficult it will be to start a health research, due to numbers of course. I hope I am wrong. 
This forum is invaluable for helping the breed. The only down side I see is that it clearly gives you several diseases...IWAP, MHS, etc., I have seen it :-}


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Posh's Mom said:


> absolutely. especially when gross places like this one in my area start selling hava-somethings and havs. makes me want to vomit.
> http://amazenfarmyard.com/pages/puppies/puppies1.html


Amy, that place is sickening! So many, many puppies, and their sad little eyes... That is heartbreaking. I couldn't even look at all of them. So, so sad...


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Amy, those don't even look like Havs on that site. there is no hope or happiness in their sad little eyes.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

I have 2 different friends/neighbors that love my dogs and they both want one. One has been after me for 4 years to help her find a "cheap" one that she can have as an outdoor dog 24/7. NOT ON YOUR LIFE!!!
The other one just wants a cheap, older one. She would be a good hav mommy.
Carole


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## LilyMyLove (Jul 11, 2009)

That site is terrible. I can't believe they offer "Barnyard Field trips"!!? Makes me embarassed of my wonderful home state. Did you guys see this little ditty:

"_As a Savings to our customers we have had our vet Spay and Neuter a bunch of our puppies. Many of the puppies are done and are labeld. These puppies are a huge savings and you won't have to worry about doing it and having the extra cost. Spaying and Neutering can be very expensive depending on where you go. We have seen it range anywhere from $100-$550. Everything is included in the price as you see it. Take advantage of this great offer and come and pick out your new family member today!_"

Why would they do this? I mean what advantage does this give them to spay/neuter some of their pups before they leave? Does anyone know?


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Sheri said:


> Amy, that place is sickening! So many, many puppies, and their sad little eyes... That is heartbreaking. I couldn't even look at all of them. So, so sad...


Shi-poo-nese?!?! Really? :doh::frusty: and over half of those dogs are 'poo' something or other, sad! And they all look so sad and a few of them, quite sick..to be honest.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Good post Missy. Yeah I think the Hav has become too popular too fast. And with that, comes the breeding isssues. All we can do is continue to educate prospective buyers and people that have already made the Havanese their choice. By far the biggest problem with dogs in general is behavioral issues.
"Puppies suffer from the
terminal illness of being unwanted—failing to live up to
the promise and expectation of the Lassie–Benji–Eddie dream.
Instead they develop a number of utterly predictable behavior,
training, and temperament problems and are surrendered to
animal shelters to play lotto with their lives. Many people
blame irresponsible ownership for this tragic situation. I would
cite lack of know-how. Most prospective puppy owners are
simply unaware of the problems that lie ahead and
unfortunately, they have little idea how to prevent or resolve
them." Ian Dunbar.
Education is the key , and that is all we can do. Thanks to all of you who have helped educate me.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I'm worried about it too, that's why I said, when someone posted about how great it was that our breed was getting more attention, it would only bring more misery to animals forced into the breeding business for people with nothing more than dollar signs in their eyes. Ah, where were the days of Have-A-What???


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

I worry every time I see a new pet store open in my area. There is one now selling the sweetest little Hav for $499, and if I didn't have so many dogs right now I'd buy the poor guy just to get him out of there. But, I think it happens to every breed that becomes popular because of a celeb or movie or tv show. Remember what happened with dalmations a few years ago? The shelters were full of those poor dogs because people bought them for their kids, but the didn't do the research.

We just have to continue to educate people as to why they should buy from reputible breeders. Any impact we make can help.


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## Gandorf (Jan 16, 2009)

Jammies said:


> * If I had a T-shirt made that said "Don't buy from a pet store in a mall, they only support puppy mills" and on the back says "buy from a reputable breeder" would I be thrown in jail?
> *


This got my attention so had to add something. I was in a St Louis, MO mall the other day (just visiting there) and saw a pet store that was crowded with puppies everywhere, walked in and saw a sign that said "Havanese" along with some other breeds on one of the cages. I looked to find the Havanese and could not spot it, so I asked the kid running the store which one was the Havanese and he pointed me out a orange-ish looking scrawny puppy with stringy hair that did not look soft and looked like it was barely 1 pound! I asked how old was it was and he says 8 weeks and how much and he says it is "on sale" for $900. Sure did not look like any Havanese I have ever seen! I can certainly see why many are concerned!


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## grace132 (Nov 5, 2009)

We're lucky that none of the pet stores around here can sell puppies. The only animals they ever have are when they're doing their adoption days through the SPCA, and that's only for cats and kittens. That, of course, doesn't stop the backyard breeders or puppy mills, but at least the animals aren't stuck in cages to be stared at all day long and poked at by all the mall dwellers. 

Murphy is my first Havanese, and I admit that I'm relatively new to the breed. Unfortunately, the problem you're discussing has been the same for any dog that has become popular. People are always going to be greedy at the expense of the animal. I'm not sure how you create laws to prevent this from happening. Education is definitely key, but sadly, greed wins in the end. There is a big market for pedigreed dogs, and people are willing to pay astronimical prices in some cases. That's too attractive to ignore for some people. It is sad. The faces on those puppies on that website were tragic. Not to mention that it seemed they went out of their way to try some "creative" breeding. I don't get that at all.


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## suzyfrtz (Nov 12, 2007)

I'm really concerned about the sweet Havs being cross-bred, like so-called designer dogs. The other day I was walking Cazzie and Chelsie and a woman out walking her dog wanted to stop and talk. Her dog, she told me, had a Hav mother and a bulldog father. (Poor mother!) The dog looked like a Hav on steroids. It was not funny! I cringed inside, but couldn't summon up the courage to ask exactly how that happened, by accident or plan, or to tell her how awful it was. She loved her dog however.

Suzy


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## Poornima (Jun 29, 2007)

I think this forum does a wonderful job at educating people but all of us need to vigilent and not do business with any pet shops that sell puppies from puppy mills. 

There were so many pet shops that sold puppies on Long Island that I made it point to call the store that carried the products I needed to check if they sold puppies. I avoided the shops that did. We need to hurt their pockets.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

Dogs on "sale"??? WTH? They're living beings! That site made me want to cry as most of those dogs didn't resemble the breed they claimed to be. And what's with all the strange mixes?


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

I for one would be willing to buy and wear a shirt that says "Stamp Out Puppy Mills" how could it be worded to include the Pet Shops that buy from Puppy Mills? It is clear from these posts that something needs to be done. I saw all the creativity going into the quilt, and I know there will be some wonderful ideas here on this subject.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

Check out Cafe Press, I knew they'd have something!
http://shop.cafepress.com/puppy-mills


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

Really good ones, did not see one with a Hav on it but some really good ones there!


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

One of the major problems, and I don't know if there is a way to take care of it, is the mind set in the mill areas that basically sees the dogs as livestock.

The current government regulations actually encourage this mind set by placing them under the jurisdiction of the USDA. Until that changes, I don't see an end in sight to mill operations. 

My husband is from Goodman, MO originally and we lived there for a period of time. It is the heart of puppy mill country and where the infamous Hunte Corporation is. If you don't know about them, try a google search. It will sicken you. These people take great pride in being the largest pet brokerage company in the nation.

As many have said, education is the key, but how do you educate these people? Many of them come from some of the poorest regions in the country, the Ozarks, rural Kentucky, Appalachia...I honestly believe the only way to get rid of the mills is to eliminate the pet stores that sell live animals. Only when we can accomplish that can we then work on getting rid of the mills.

BTW, if anyone would like custom designed shirts, pins or bumper stickers on this, let me know. My husband is a graphic designer and has multiple stores on Zazzle, which is similar to Cafe Press. He can and would be happy to make any design you want.


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## herrick51 (Mar 4, 2008)

I, too, am very concerned. We hadn't had a dog for over 25 years when we fell in love with a neighbor's Hav. I spend countless hours in research, visited 4 different breeders, and spend night after night in discussion with DH about the serious commitment we were making. When we got Brody, we felt very good about his breeding and the loving care that he had obviously gotten as a pup (along with great lines and health testing).

However, I have discouraged to very dear friends who were considering a new puppy and were enchanted by Brody. One didn't want to spend much, and the other would never had had to time for a velcro dog. 

I just want to cry when I hear of the conditions of the puppy mills.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

When I checked the 7 states with the most puppy mills were Missouri, Nebraska, Kansas, Iowa,Arkansas, Oklahoma and Pennslvania. But I think there are far too many out there that are just not "known" puppy mills.


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

Yes I am worried about our breed and the puppy mill breeders not breeding for health and temperament.

My dogs are a perfect example of some of my concerns...Casper came from (now what I know as a commercialized on line selling puppies and lots of puppies). He has temperament and health issures.... and this breeder is still selling lots of puppies! 

Alot of families could probably not deal with some of Casper issues... a family with small kids would never work. 

Now Missy on the other hand is so good, healthy and good temperament, loves everyone and everything she sees comes from a much better breeder concerned the breed.

So, yes I worry all the time when these families with kids buy from a pet store or puppy mill type setting that is just turning out as many puppies as they can and doesnt care about health issues of how these puppies will get along with their new families.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Posh's Mom said:


> absolutely. especially when gross places like this one in my area start selling hava-somethings and havs. makes me want to vomit.
> http://amazenfarmyard.com/pages/puppies/puppies1.html


Omg, this makes me sick!

*Deal of the Day!
This puppy is our Deal of the Day! Picked up and gone home by 10 p.m. 1/28/10!

Schnoodle
Black & Silver Male
$500
Deal of the Day
$150*

Debbie, and anyone else, you can check this site out, if you want t-shirts, buttons, pamphlets, posters, etc.... http://www.petshoppuppies.org/print/index.htm

Here for merchandise: http://stoppuppymills.org/campaign_gear.html

They do exist and I think they are great for getting the word out. A year ago, I created a pamphlet, in French and in English, printed out many copies and I carry them with me. I leave them in windshield wipers of cars parked outside pet stores. I also have them at the store I work at and take the opportunity to teach customers that comment on them. If you were to order brochures and hand them out, you'd be surprised by the number of people who "had no idea"!

I rarely praise the Havanese out in public. I'm being greedy and paranoid at the same time. I don't want to see them so popular here that they are found in pet shops. I just emailed someone on Kijiji (like Craigslist) about her "havanese" puppy to see what she's all about. 

Missy, I suppose the silver lining in rising popularity would be that perhaps you'd get a larger number of people researching the Hav and making sure they work with a good breeder. I mean, out of 20 people who decide to buy a Havanese based on popularity, maybe 5 or 10 will get them through a reputable breeder and will, like us, push others to research, to check out health testing and socializing, etc... Maybe. One has to hope that will be the case, but I prefer to see the Hav among the unpopular toy breeds.


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

Scooter's Family said:


> Check out Cafe Press, I knew they'd have something!
> http://shop.cafepress.com/puppy-mills


And somethng here too! http://shop.cafepress.com/spay-neuter


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

I am worried for the breed. I'm worried for alot of the toy breeds especially.

Here's a good one. http://www.cafepress.com/+dont_litter_spay_or_neuter_sweatshirt,31316234


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

good buddy said:


> I am worried for the breed. I'm worried for alot of the toy breeds especially.
> 
> Here's a good one. http://www.cafepress.com/+dont_litter_spay_or_neuter_sweatshirt,31316234


looking at that site, made me sick...I think I am going to have nightmares...they are not feeding those dogs and look at their poor little face expressions.


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## Wildflower (Dec 6, 2009)

Not sure where to ask this, so thought I'd post in this thread. 

Wondering where this situation would fit in. I don't consider these circumstances to be a backyard breeder and yet I keep seeing references to backyard breeders just because someone has bred their two pets. Wouldn't this situation be more than that?

Experienced Jack Russell terrier breeder (no longer) but first Havanese litter. 
Both parents were carefully chosen as puppies with pedigrees from reputable professional breeders. 
Champion lines in both pedigrees.
Both parents are family pets in separate homes.
All health testing done for both parents and all results good _at the time of testing_.
AKC full registration on puppies. (ETA: My mistake -- it is a "limited" registration)
Health guarantee for one year for puppies.


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

By health testing do they mean CERF, BAER, patellas, cardiac, lcp....? If you look at the Havanese.org site, this page shows the various levels of health testing and how they consider that in 'grading' a breeder.

Are the dogs good representations of the breed standard? We have all likely seen a dog that comes from a good line, but doesn't meet the criteria of being a candidate for breeding.

I guess my main question would be, what is their objective in breeding?


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Most breeders don't offer full registration on their puppies if they're sold to pet homes. The reason being you don't want just anyone without knowledge about the breed breeding.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

Wildflower said:


> Not sure where to ask this, so thought I'd post in this thread.
> 
> Wondering where this situation would fit in. I don't consider these circumstances to be a backyard breeder and yet I keep seeing references to backyard breeders just because someone has bred their two pets. Wouldn't this situation be more than that?
> 
> ...


This will be an interesting thread. Backyard breeder? That does tend to have a negative sound, but what does it really mean? I think you have to know so much more than what I can see in the ad. To me it does not have the same negative sound as "puppy mill". Let's hear what others have to say!


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## Wildflower (Dec 6, 2009)

TheVintageVamp said:


> By health testing do they mean CERF, BAER, patellas, cardiac, lcp....? If you look at the Havanese.org site, this page shows the various levels of health testing and how they consider that in 'grading' a breeder.
> 
> Are the dogs good representations of the breed standard? We have all likely seen a dog that comes from a good line, but doesn't meet the criteria of being a candidate for breeding.
> 
> I guess my main question would be, what is their objective in breeding?


Yes, it is complete health testing. All I can remember right now on the list is the CERF and BAER though...

Both parents were bought with the intention of being a pet but each dog was also given the papers from the breeder with each breeder's "blessing" for these dogs to be bred. (Not sure how else to say that?) Each dog was carefully chosen with the intent to breed one day.

And I believe the objective in breeding is to become a breeder again. 18 years breeding/showing Jack Russells but they stopped about 10 years ago for personal reasons I guess.


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

Well, I guess my next question would be why didn't they show first, instead of going straight into breeding? And, while they apparently wished to go back into breeding, it isn't clear as to why they want to breed. If they aren't showing, is the breeding strictly in order to sell puppies?


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## Wildflower (Dec 6, 2009)

pjewel said:


> Most breeders don't offer full registration on their puppies if they're sold to pet homes. The reason being you don't want just anyone without knowledge about the breed breeding.


I just edited my post -- it is a "limited" registration. The buyers of puppies agree to spay/neuter. My mistake!


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

Here is a great page outlining the differences between a backyard breeder vs a reputable breeder:
Backyard vs Reputable


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## Wildflower (Dec 6, 2009)

TheVintageVamp said:


> Well, I guess my next question would be why didn't they show first, instead of going straight into breeding? And, while they apparently wished to go back into breeding, it isn't clear as to why they want to breed. If they aren't showing, is the breeding strictly in order to sell puppies?


I honestly don't know much about showing dogs and really don't care to learn. So my answers are only what I have been told and what I bothered to listen to on that subject. :redface: I believe the breeder *does* plan to show but isn't currently but I don't know any more than that. She is keeping at least one of the puppies. She HAS shown in the past but another breed. And I think the daddy's owner does show dogs but not her own?


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## Wildflower (Dec 6, 2009)

TheVintageVamp said:


> Here is a great page outlining the differences between a backyard breeder vs a reputable breeder:
> Backyard vs Reputable


Thank you for that link! VERY informative.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Carolyn, is this your pups breeder or a breeder you intend to get a pup from? Here's my two cents and it may not be popular (and remember I failed in selecting the breeder for my first pup anyway) For me, getting a pet, I would not care if the breeder was currently showing (although it is nice to know that your pup comes from an award winning line (bragging rights  and I also realize the point of showing and winning is to record success and therefore and improve the lines of the breed) if and when I do it again. The things that I would be certain of this time is The Health of the parents and Grand Parents and as far back as I could go... making sure that the Cerf, Baer, Cardiac, etc. As well as try to verify if there are other things that creep up in any of the breedings --CD, SA, joint problems. This most likely means I would be dealing with a reputable breeder that I both trust and can verify. But If I the breeder you mention has two, Health Tested dogs, from a line of health tested dogs that you can verify, it would not bother me if this is her first Hav litter. Especially, if she had a mentor who would guide her through this first litter of a breed. I can see having been a breeder and having two wonderful dogs and wanting to do it again. But what I would question her about (and run if I were not certain) is how she plans of raising and socializing the puppies. I believe a lot has changed in the 10 years she has been retired. I think the way Havanese are socialized means a big difference on whether they are comic, cuddly, clowns, or a bit reserved and fearful. Now that being said, Jasper was and still is a bit reserved and fearful. But for us he is our Heart Dog. And I truly feel that how they get their start on potty training at the breeders will make your life a lot easier.

edited to add: you know I've been thinking about what I wrote, although in my head I feel that what I wrote above is true, If I do get a third pup-- because I know I failed in the past, I am going to seek out the best breeder, with the healthiest line, with a ton of experience with this breed, and that means they show! and the pup comes from a true champion. and if they would consider parting with, I would even like a show quality pup even though I would likely not show...just because I love the beauty of a great looking Hav!


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## RikiDaisyDixie (Apr 15, 2008)

*Disposables...*

Why are dogs turned in to rescue? Too much energy, too much money, too attached, medical problems that they cannot afford, house-training, losing a job, moving, not enough time for the dog, inherited problems, did I say housetraining?

Not just our dogs are being turned in in numbers...our local rescue has so many adoptable ones...mixes, puppies bought when cute and then discarded for the responsibility that goes with it.

The challenge is that in tough economic times, people really cannot keep their pets. And people want to make money so they think "breeding" would be a money maker...and I understand that it is actually quite the opposite if you do it well.

So we educate, educate, educate. Write letters, get active, assist in rescue if you can. We can focus on what we can do...

If each one of us try, imagine what we can accomplish. Our numbers are strong.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Leah, I've noticed that you have mentioned Limited Registration a number of times in your posts as if it is a problem. Dogs are sold on Limited Registration because of several reasons, but the two main reasons are: The dog shouldn't be bred (not up to standard or other reasons), or the owner isn't _known_ to be ready for breeding (educated in the standard, health issues, has a mentor, etc.)

There are many dogs that need homes. We don't need to breed just for the sake of producing more dogs, which is why Limited Registration is so important.


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

Rikidaisy said:


> Why are dogs turned in to rescue? Too much energy, too much money, too attached, medical problems that they cannot afford, house-training, losing a job, moving, not enough time for the dog, inherited problems, did I say housetraining?


It isn't just "pets" that end up in rescue though. Breeders will try to find ways to dump their dogs into rescue when they aren't producing well or are used up. They also dump dogs on the street or into shelters and then if not adopted rescues will try to save the dog from being PTS. As the popularity of the Havanese breed increases, the mass breeding will increase and so rescue will have their hands full from these poor dogs as well.


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## Wildflower (Dec 6, 2009)

Missy said:


> Carolyn, is this your pups breeder or a breeder you intend to get a pup from?


Missy, I am actually asking for my uncle. He lives in Massachusetts, too.  Near Great Barrington. He doesn't use the internet much and wouldn't join a forum anyway...

He knew about Havanese before I did and has been on a waiting list at one breeder for many months. Somehow he came across this one and we just didn't think they would be a BYB with their experience and they _seem _to be doing things correctly...

I am trying to help and knew asking here would do so very much!

Thank you for your reply, too!


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

If you have looked up the testing results on the parents and all seems in order there, I would request to go visit as the next step in seeing whether or not this would be a viable option on getting a pup. I'd also ask if there is any possibility of seeing the sire as well, since he is not on premises from the sounds of it.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Leah, it is awfully difficult to determine if a _puppy_ is show quality. Maybe show potential, but until she is fully grown, you don't really know. If you bought her on a show potential breeding contract, then why would anyone be unaccepting of it?


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## karin117 (Mar 29, 2008)

I like to add something to this thread...and not tutch the big subject...the worry of the breed (yes I am too).

But now I am talking about a smaller thing. The mention of "pet". A puppy and a dog can be "pet quality"...it mean the breader have decided that they do not think this puppy will add to the breed...make it better...

But show dogs are also pets, family dogs...loved pets ... And I hope EVERY breeding dog is also a pet..a loved family member. 

I sometime think there is a confusion in this????

My dogs are first of all my LOVED pets....well I NEVER talk of them as my "pets" I say my angels...but they are pets first, showdogs second...


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Leah wrote: *"I'm worried that it will become difficult and/or unaffordable to buy a pure bred dog from anyone other than a puppy mill in the future."*

I have a little trouble with this comment, as it seems to me like it's either "go with a pure bred from a breeder and pay a fortune or go with one from a puppy mill to save some money". What about shelters? Breed-specific Rescues? I have seen many pure breds at our SPCA and other local shelters, Westies, Goldens, Boxers, Shih-Tzus, Pekes,... you name it. We need to teach the public that there are so many wonderful, pure bred or not, dogs and puppies in shelters that they need to consider them as a valid place to look for their next dog.

In my "perfect" world, pet shops would only sell those dogs that are from shelters and they'd never be kept in those infernal windowed boxes. 

*"With limited AKC registration, the number of people (breeders?) who can sell puppies that can be registered with the AKC on any level will be severely limited. One of my girls is probably show quality, but there's no point in breeding her, sustaining the quality of the breed and giving a very caring and competent family the joy of owing and loving a Havanese because her puppies cannot be registered with the AKC. What's the point? BTW, I have no interest in the money in selling puppies, but want to sell them for enough money to ensure that prospective owners are serious in their commitment to caring for a dog for its natural life.

I probably won't buy a new puppy after I'm 65, so I won't leave a dog behind if something happens to me. In 12 years, where am I going to be able to find a good Havanese or Bichon? It was hard enough, this time."*

I think that "severely limiting" the number of people who can sell Hav puppies is a good thing, but that comes from my fear of creating a breed that is "too" popular. Keep it limited, keep it tightly controlled, keep it healthy and make them hard to purchase. To me, those are pluses and I don't mean that in an elitist way. I mean that it might protect the breed (any breed, not just Havanese) if it takes jumping through all kinds of hurdles to produce litters and to sell them.

It would "better the breed" much more if you (or anyone thinking of breeding Havs for the first time) would simply refer any requests to those reputable breeders that have already established a healthy breeding program, who have had years of experience with this breed and who will aim to match a new family with the best puppy for them. You'd give me 5 grand and I'd still prefer referring you to breeders I know than even begin contemplating breeding my "show quality" Havs. Know what I mean... ?

I think that all Havs (and other breeds, all of them really!) should never be sold with breeding rights to just anybody. The number of these types of pets/litters that end up in shelters is astounding!

Karin, for sure any and all dogs should be "pets" first. Totally agree with you.


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## tabby2 (Jan 19, 2009)

Removed


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

*"This is particularly a big deal to me b/c I'm coming from another breed that has been damaged in the last ten years by, in part, nice people who didn't mean any harm but didn't know what they were doing (sort of the "hey, breed this cute female to this adorable male, both from good breeders and I'm sure we'll have extra cute and adorable puppies.") "*

My point exactly, Jane!

There is a thread somewhere around the forum about the definition of backyard breeders according to different members, but dang if I can find it! I wish people would post in the proper forums so things are easier to find.... but that's another pet peeve for another discussion. :bolt: lol


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## tabby2 (Jan 19, 2009)

To paraphrase former Secy of Defense Donald Rumsfeld: "There's what you know. There's what you don't know. There's what you know you don't know. And then there's what you don't know you don't know, which sometimes you know you don't know about but sometimes you don't."


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

Leah- Silly question, you already have two puppies, am I understanding you correctly that you are getting a 3rd puppy?


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Jumping in on the discussion of limited registration:

The single biggest reason that there are puppies being bred in puppy mills and by backyard breeders is that there have been too many sold with unlimited registration. Once you sell a dog with full registration, total control over any of the offspring of the puppies you have produced is lost. This is the way numbers grow exponentially. Being a responsible breeder means being responsible of everything about the puppies produced including any future offspring. This is the single biggest advantage to Unlimited Registration.

An experienced breeder with depth in their line can easily tell at an early age if a puppy is going to be show quality. Now if this is a puppy out of a bitch that was just bought from someone else to breed then of course there is not a depth of knowledge there to base decisions on. It also requires a depth of knowledge in conformation and temperament that doesn't come from just having a mentor.

Way too many new, inexperienced people get into breeding them to boost their egos and maybe "make me some money". All it takes for a new ego breeder to make a name is to have a purse large enough for advertising and handlers to get a pointed dog. These are the breeders that you see who put every dog they can in a show home, who have no experience breeding anything else, and rely on other people to tell them what to do. The dogs being produced by these "show breeders" put numbers of breeding dogs out there in exponentially increasing numbers.

At the other extreme of "show breeders" are people who have produced many breeding dogs, set as many new breeders as possible up to boost their puppy sales and breedings back to their males. Some of these breeders have bred other dogs before and have kept switching breeds until they found one that got popular quickly. Some depend entirely on producing puppies for their livelihood and these are the ones you find in the news sometimes living in a trailer with 35 dogs.


We have been producing these puppies for eleven years now. There would be no trouble for us to pick one out that would be a good show dog, but that's of very little importance to us. We much prefer the best pet homes even for our best quality puppies. In fact, we have only sold 5 dogs(I hope I'm remembering all of them but there might be 1 other that I'm not recalling right now) with full registration, and those only to close friends of ours that we have known for a good while and have full confidence that they have the same ideals and standards that we have. That's less than 2 % of the total. We have never sold a female to breed to anyone to start with and certainly not someone who just wants to get into it to make some money.

There are no legitimate dogs being bred with our kennel name on their pedigree in puppy mills. AKC says that their registry is 97 or 98 percent accurate. That is because their registration system is not perfect and there are questionable dogs being bred, in different breeds, with stolen or made up kennel names. I don't think we have any of those with our name on them either, but it is possible. This is how keeping tight control with unlimited registration works.

So am I worried about the breed. We have been from the start and it's gone pretty much in the direction we expected. Only when breeders accept no compromise for the dogs' benefit do things get better. There are way too few breeders who do it simply because they love it.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

As a very new "crazy dog lady" I'm going to throw my opinion into this...

We've only had dogs for not quite two years now, Scooter being our first dog ever, and I have learned sooooo much from the breeders on this forum. Like Missy, I didn't do enough research at the beginning and probably encouraged a backyard breeder. She does show and health test, not enough I know now, so we dodged a bullet and did get a healthy dog. My next two were rescues.

There's nothing wrong with being "a snob" and wanting a pure-bred dog, I think lots of people feel that way and if you're willing and able to pay for it then that's great.

The concern seems to be for the well being of the breed as a whole when uneducated people are breeding dogs that shouldn't be bred which creates dogs that could potentially have many problems. Then someone else breeds one of those dogs, and it goes on. We end up with many dogs that don't fit the breed standard, and I'm not talking about just looks. I love my dogs because they're cute but also because of the lovely disposition of the Havanese! They're loving, cuddly, velcro, and a PART OF OUR FAMILY. It would be a shame if those qualities were lost due to irresponsible breeding, to me, that's what makes our breed so special.

So many dogs are being given up on CL, to rescues, and shelters and it's sad! What happens when someone researches the breed, sees all of these wonderful qualities, then buys from an inexperienced breeder and gets a dog that doesn't come close to what they've read about? They give the dog up to a shelter or try to sell it to get some of their investment back. It makes me ill.

If you don't know what you're doing, get a mentor who does and learn all you can about this wonderful breed, get involved in showing for the education and to meet more knowledgeable people who can offer help, and then move on into breeding. In my opinion, this isn't something to be taken lightly.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

> I love my dogs because they're cute but also because of the lovely disposition of the Havanese! They're loving, cuddly, velcro, and a PART OF OUR FAMILY. It would be a shame if those qualities were lost due to irresponsible breeding, to me, that's what makes our breed so special.


I agree!!!


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## Skye (Jan 23, 2010)

I am a newbie here, considering a Hav pup. I posted "puppies and children." I will be waiting awhile to get a pup. I do have to say, that after searching the internet, there sure are a lot of "Havanese" being advertised. One site advertises all of their dogs as "teacups." (Undersized and unhealthy?!) I for one, would like a pup that grows up to be on the larger size of the standard, since I have children. I also picture young girls just wanting a "purse pup." Sad!


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Leah did you buy your girls on a limited registration?


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

Anne, very well said!

I have loved cocker spaniels all my life. Sadly, in recent years I have seen a lot of comments about ill-tempered, unpredictable cockers. This is NOT the norm in high quality, well bred cocker spaniels that are raised appropriately, rather it is the result of over breeding, poorly thought out breeding and outright negligent breeding to meet popular demand over the past few decades. 

When we had cocker spaniels, I never had a qualm about my young niece and nephew coming and playing with them. I never had a qualm about my adolescent children and their friends playing with them. They were well bred and good representations of the breed that had been trained properly since early in their lives. Sadly, this isn't always the case and they now have a rep of being an unstable dog. 

I would hate to see this end up happening with Havanese as well, and it could all to easily become a reality without limited registrations and work on educating potential owners.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Leah said:


> Kimberly,
> 
> I honestly understand the need for limited registration. The breeder I bought for stated that she would never sell a puppy with full registration to ANYBODY which makes me think that her concern is more than the quality of the breed and the dog. *There is a breeder in Dallas who openly offers to sell you a show quality puppy and when that dog finishes its championship, she will give you full unlimited ownership.* If I wanted the responsibilty of breeding, I must make the investment, i.e., learning about the breed and showing the dog. No problem.
> {snipped}
> From my past experience with dog breeders, they will be very glad to entrust a show quality puppy to you when they are convinced that you will do what is necessary for that puppy to reach its potential as an adult dog.


Leah, with Limited Registration you cannot enter conformation events (nor register offspring), so I think there was a misunderstanding or a misrepresentation with that breeder in Dallas. You cannot earn a championship without having Full Registration.

And, honestly, that has been the problem. Too many people easily give Full Registration whether it be by ignorance or trust or hoping to get more of their dogs into the ring.

By the way, "full ownership" and "Full AKC Registration" are two very different things. Most breeders will co-own the dog with you even when they give you Full Registration.


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## Pixiesmom (Jul 31, 2008)

Skye said:


> I am a newbie here, considering a Hav pup. I posted "puppies and children." I will be waiting awhile to get a pup. I do have to say, that after searching the internet, there sure are a lot of "Havanese" being advertised. One site advertises all of their dogs as "teacups." (Undersized and unhealthy?!) I for one, would like a pup that grows up to be on the larger size of the standard, since I have children. I also picture young girls just wanting a "purse pup." Sad!


Yep-there are unscrupulous people who breed to get tiny havs. Pixie is very small and could be considered a "purse puppy". Her breeder did not want to sell her to us and tried to steer us away to another littermate. The other 4 pups were regular size and when we first went to view the litter, the size difference was slight. As the pups got older, then you could tell she was smaller. From the first visit, my dh wanted HER. That was it. (Both parents are standard size with full health testing.) The breeder paid to have her panels done before we took her and luckily they were healthy.
She does have luxating patellas, and I informed her breeder. She is a phone call or an email away and I keep her updated on everything. So far she's on Cosequin everyday and seems to be fine so far. There are soo many issues that can arise with tiny dogs and breeding just to get an unnatural size just isn't right.


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## Mojo's Mom (Jun 6, 2009)

Yes. I am grateful that I have an excellent breeder from whom I can get another Havanese like my Mojo, when we are ready.

Pressure needs to be put on AKC to start working against the puppy mills.

The Malagasy Coton de Tulear people have been smart to keep their dogs out of AKC, which will save their breed, except for the offshoot group who has taken the "Coton" to AKC.

Too bad the Havanese couldn't stay out of the limelight. Too bad they couldn't stay out of AKC.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

Mojo's Mom said:


> Yes. I am grateful that I have an excellent breeder from whom I can get another Havanese like my Mojo, when we are ready.
> 
> Pressure needs to be put on AKC to start working against the puppy mills.
> 
> ...


There are lots of differing opinions on AKC, particularily now in agility circles. But truth is AKC makes money from registrations of purebred dogs, no matter where they come from, best intentioned breeders, or puppy mills.


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## Skye (Jan 23, 2010)

tabby2 said:


> To paraphrase former Secy of Defense Donald Rumsfeld: "There's what you know. There's what you don't know. There's what you know you don't know. And then there's what you don't know you don't know, which sometimes you know you don't know about but sometimes you don't."


I love this! I like this line from Edie Brickell's song, "What I Am": "I'm not aware of too many things. I know what I know if you know what I mean."


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## Skye (Jan 23, 2010)

Pixiesmom said:


> Yep-there are unscrupulous people who breed to get tiny havs. Pixie is very small and could be considered a "purse puppy". Her breeder did not want to sell her to us and tried to steer us away to another littermate. The other 4 pups were regular size and when we first went to view the litter, the size difference was slight. As the pups got older, then you could tell she was smaller. From the first visit, my dh wanted HER. That was it. (Both parents are standard size with full health testing.) The breeder paid to have her panels done before we took her and luckily they were healthy.
> She does have luxating patellas, and I informed her breeder. She is a phone call or an email away and I keep her updated on everything. So far she's on Cosequin everyday and seems to be fine so far. There are soo many issues that can arise with tiny dogs and breeding just to get an unnatural size just isn't right.


Well, she is ADORABLE, and I am so glad you have the health testing, and a good breeder! I know each breed does have their issues. It is amazing though how many pups are for sale out there with a visa button and shipping...you don't know anything about where they are coming from, and they don't know anything about you! And, it does take work and research to find reputable breeders. I asked this question on a different thread, but if anyone knows of good breeders within a 3 hour drive from Pittsburgh, PA, please list them. Thanks!


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

So, here's the link to the thread Marj was talking about.

http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=8321

And one quick comment. I'm not sure that most buying from a puppy mill even care
about AKC registration. They like having a pure-bred pet. So, just how much does limited registration matter? It would be nice if somehow more puppies could be spayed/neutered so they would not end up being a puppy machine in a mill.
Carole


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

mellowbo said:


> And one quick comment. I'm not sure that most buying from a puppy mill even care
> about AKC registration. They like having a pure-bred pet. So, just how much does limited registration matter? It would be nice if somehow more puppies could be spayed/neutered so they would not end up being a puppy machine in a mill.
> Carole


I think most buying from a puppy mill or a BYB don't have a clue. Pet sore pups often come with AKC registration and it's just one more thing that make people believe that they aren't buying from a puppy mill. Mills and BYB's don't advertise that's what they are. They do much to disguise the fact and to appear to be as legitamite as a responsible breeder. That's why you get the song and dance from them saying their dogs are healthy (the vet said so) and they offer guarentees (you can trade for a new one if yours dies the first year--IF you can prove it was from a genetic disease ha!). Thta's why so many people are confused if their breeder is a good one.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

Leah said:


> I am getting a Bichon. I had originally planned to buy a Bichon, but couldn't find the right situation. Then, I looked at Havs and found a breeder who had two litter mates that were ready for a new home. Since then, the Bichon breeder contacted me about puppies that will be ready to go to a new home next weekend. I'm partial to Bichons and didn't want to pass up this chance. That will give me three dogs which is on the low end of what I have been accustomed to most of my life. I hope it's not a problem here.


Just wondering about Bichons, can you tell me the differences in them and the Havs, besides the obvious look? Thanks for sharing, it's nice to have more than one dog and it looks like to me Havs and Bichons would be a good choice!


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

mellowbo said:


> So, here's the link to the thread Marj was talking about.
> 
> http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=8321
> 
> ...


I am not sure the AKC reg. does not matter to most people who get a puppy from a puppy mill. Without the AKC reg. they cannot breed these puppy mill puppies later, and sell them for what they can with the full registration. I guess I am too skeptical, but that is what I think. Not to say all who do this will end up with a puppy mill situation, but definitely they could if they wanted to.. just a thought!


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> I am not sure the AKC reg. does not matter to most people who get a puppy from a puppy mill. Without the AKC reg. they cannot breed these puppy mill puppies later, and sell them for what they can with the full registration. I guess I am too skeptical, but that is what I think. Not to say all who do this will end up with a puppy mill situation, but definitely they could if they wanted to.. just a thought!


I have seen people here as well as other boards who purchase a "registered" dog for the full price and then mention the registration is APRI or one of the other registries that is basically worthless. Registering a dog with these other registries is another way to be able to say the dog is "registered". Ooooh Ahhhh... It's just another way to appear legit and not be questioned about charging full price.


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

A huge number of the mill puppies are destined for the pet store trade and in that sector, registration does matter in that it is used to garner a higher price for said puppy.

Sadly, these unscrupulous brokerage companies and the mills are working around issues such as limited registration by creating their own 'better than the AKC' registries. They are also using these supposed registries to provide 'papers' for the hybrid and designer dogs. My son and his fiance fell for this song and dance, hook, line and sinker when they shelled out $500.00 at a pet store for Weezie, a pomeranian/cavalier king charles spaniel mix. My son took great pains to point out to me that each parent was a registered dog of the respective species. *sigh* I thought I had raised him smarter than that.....and they refuse to believe their baby came from a mill, despite evidence to the contrary.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

I got the same story from my brother who recently bought from a pet store in spite of all my warnings. "But this is a very high end pet store and they don't buy from puppy mills" Yeah, right, lol.
Carole


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

mellowbo said:


> I got the same story from my brother who recently bought from a pet store in spite of all my warnings. "But this is a very high end pet store and they don't buy from puppy mills" Yeah, right, lol.
> Carole


I do know sometimes in NC, I have been in a pet store and there have been rescue groups in there selling/placing rescues. I am always skeptical of this too, although I don't know how they work, or if you take the rescue then, how do they know if they are going into a good home. I hope they take applications, check out the people and then place, next time I will ask. I am so opposed to petstore sales I did not inquire...


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

I wish that had been the case where my kids bought Weezie, but it wasn't. It is a full fledged "puppy boutique"...:rant:


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

Leah said:


> They come to your house to make sure you have a fenced yard, etc. Before I bought my Havanese girls, I was going to adopt a cat. You have to fill out an application where they ask questions about doggie doors and crates. If you don't answer them right, you can't adopt. Yes, for cats. I don't know how to answer about doggie doors and crates. I don't like keeping my animals in crates at home and I have a doggie door from the outside to the garage. If you've had a cat in the past 10 years that hasn't died of natural causes, you cant' adopt. I was afraid they would want to go through my house and look under the beds. When I couldn't find any kittens at this time of year, I decided it was time to get another puppy since it had been two years since my Bichon died.


I did not know, thank you. I just have to be home for cats to find me. Seriously about 10 years ago, I was outside washing the car and looked down the drive, there was a beautiful Cat coming followed by four balls of fur, all tails up in the air, all walking through the beautiful autumn leaves on the country driveway. Yes I kept them all and had them neutered since my neighbor would not agree to do it. I offered to pay half and she still would not neuter spay.

I am glad to know they care about their rescues, but sorry that a cat missed a good home with you!!


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## Lunastar (Feb 9, 2009)

Jammies said:


> *This is a serious question. If I had a T-shirt made that said "Don't buy from a pet store in a mall, they only support puppy mills" and on the back says "buy from a reputable breeder" would I be thrown in jail? I would wear it at my local mall that has a Petland!
> 
> Would any of you come to visit me in jail and slide me a hershey bar in once in awhile?*


Debbie, that is a great idea. I don't think you can go to jail for wearing a shirt. Maybe for not wearing one. LOL I want one of these shirts too.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I think with this thread the way to look at it is, if each person on the forum bred their cute hav/what their vet said healthy/their dog has champions in his or her line dog, imagine how many puppies their would be (even if we just had one litter), imagine how many health problems there could be as well. Then take those puppies who are cute and great looking and those people bred them but only have one litter. I think anyone who has walked into a shelter knows where this goes. After doing a lot with rescue, I wish breeding was never taken lightly.

Leah-I am also shocked you paid 3 times what most people pay for a havanese for a show prospect puppy (I have heard about this for finished champion to add to breeding program and that makes sense). I didn't know of any reputable havanese breeders that would charge 3 times the amount for a show prospect baby. Is this common in the other breeds you have been involved in?

Flynn- Around here in SC, they have one a day week or month where the local places can set up. A few people from my therapy dog group work the adoption tables for their breed rescue-goldens and labs. I think it is a great idea and taking Dash to visit, he was trying to convince me we needed a basset hound puppy it was working on me for a minute! Having done home visits for rescue, I am all for them. I had a rescue before that I went and did the home visit, not sure if they were the right family for the dog and soon saw it was perfect. So I think the home check can go both ways.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I'm confused and perhaps I read some of this wrong. I was under the impression when you bought a puppy with a limited AKC registration, you also had to sign a spay/neuter contract, so breeding on any level couldn't be. Am I wrong?


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I just learned something. I guess I just assumed the contract would state that since all the breeders I contacted mentioned that (if I was purchasing a pet puppy). There were other requirements if the puppy were purchased to show. If a breeder sells a puppy without having a spay/neuter requirement in the contract, what's the point of limited registration?


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

I agree. I know ou did your best. Sometimes accidents happen, it doesn't make us feel any better, and at times it makes us feel worse because we tried so hard. :-{


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Leah said:


> My contract didn't say anything about spaying or neutering. It is up the breeder what the contact contains. Not being able to register a puppy with the AKC leaves me dead in the water. For me, the AKC is the only registry that matters.


Leah I think a lot of us are confused as you have not answered if you bought your puppies on a limited or full registration, if it means a lot to you and you did not buy a spay/neuter contract then why would you not be able to register your puppies if you have a litter?


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

OK, I'm going to re-read this thread from the beginning and see if I can make sense of it.
Think I'll do it later though, lol.
Carole


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

mellowbo said:


> OK, I'm going to re-read this thread from the beginning and see if I can make sense of it.
> Think I'll do it later though, lol.
> Carole


Carole, I'm glad I'm not the only one whos confused! I feel better about myself now, there've been times I was going to say something but decided not to post because things are busy here this weekend and I thought it was just me not quite getting it. :ranger:


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

*"Marj, I don't know you and am not going to judge your knowledge or experience in this breed. Quality is the key not numbers. When you start talking about numbers you are getting into supply and demand which leads me to believe that you have a profit motive. That's not a good thing." *

*** I'm really not sure what this means, Leah. Sorry ! I think quality is by far more important than quantity and I don't know that I was talking about 'numbers' so am confused. I'm not a breeder, nor do I intend to be one. After 3 teens, I'm done breeding!! lol

*"I paid three times what 95% of the Havs I've seen advertised are selling for."*

***I don't know where you saw Hav puppies for sale, but it must have been on sites by BYB's, mill operators, pet shops or I don't know...where they are sold from $400-$1000 but the price of a Havanese puppy from reputable breeders that health test, show, treat their dogs like a part of the family, traveling with them, paying for all vet costs, and then some, would mean you paid $5000-$7000 for your puppies! Yikes ! For your sake, I hope not. 

Obviously, it isn't any of our business what anyone paid for their Hav puppies, (but you brought it up) and to say '3 times the price of a show prospect' raises some flags to me. This is another thing that worries me: "My contract didn't say anything about spaying or neutering."

*"I think there is tunnel vision when it comes to the subject of puppy mills. There are puppy mills and they produce a lot of poor quality puppies, but I don't think it's fair to assume that everybody who wants to breed their dog is a potential puppy mill. It just isn't true."*

*** I totally agree one isn't to assume that! It isn't true almost all of the time, but it is true that there are many degrees of quality of breeders out there. There's the BYB, the mom who wants to have cute puppies for her kids, her uncle, her neighbor, etc..... There's the macho guy who thinks he shouldn't neuter his male because "it's wrong" so they mate him over and over again. There's the guy who has an empty barn out back and figures he might as well stick a few dozen dogs in there and sell whatever they produce to make a quick buck. There are "commercial breeders" that have clean, well-lit warehouses, filled with rows of cages of dogs that are fed, given water and made to breed when they're in heat. There are the Amish doing their thing, the auctions, the brokers dealing with buyers in parking lots or with pet stores across the country.... anyway... a lot of examples of what I think are not the healthiest, nor safest, nor most humane ways to breed dogs. They may not be "mills", but I personally, don't want to encourage that type of breeding.

Whenever I get the chance at work, or in my personal life, I try to share that strong opinion and maybe teach people to at least look into it more and not take something like that lightly, for all the reasons many of the posts here have stated.

How sad, Leah, that your vet tech is breeding pit bulls and they aren't necessarily true to conformation or have health testing done. Maybe they do, but registering to 3 online sites, but not with the AKC is a concern. Again, another thing that just bothers me and makes me want to educate people more about taking on the breeding of dogs. :rant:

Christy and Carole, I'm confused too !! LOL I think things might be a little different here in Canada, with the CKC, but I don't get the whole thing about limited and non-limited registration. :doh:

So......... what was the topic of this discussion again??! :banplease: LOL


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## Lunastar (Feb 9, 2009)

Posh's Mom said:


> absolutely. especially when gross places like this one in my area start selling hava-somethings and havs. makes me want to vomit.
> http://amazenfarmyard.com/pages/puppies/puppies1.html


That is beyond disgusting! Look how dead those eyes look, on all of them. Those poor babies. Someone needs to put them out of business forever.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

OK, let's see if I have this right. Leah, you bought a puppy with a limited registration? Now you're up the creek with no paddle because you would not be able to register a litter with AKC? You could breed but who want's a dog without AKC registration?
Am I even close????

Carole


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## LilyMyLove (Jul 11, 2009)

Everyone's responses to this thread have been interesting to read. I understand the impulse to be protective of the breed but I keep going back to one simple fact: if someone hadn't been kind enough to tell me about their wonderful Havanese and let me enjoy her I wouldn't have ended up with Lily. I think it's safe to assume that everyone on this forum heard about the Havanese breed _somewhere_.

Maybe the silver lining about the popularity of the breed is that when people recognize your dog is a Hav or ask about him/her is a great opportunity to educate at the same time. Share positives AND negatives. Share about the HRI and the importance of selecting a good breeder and avoiding pet shops and puppy mills.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

I think that's what most of us do Meghan. I'm happy to tell people about my dogs but I stress to them the importance of buying from a reputable breeder and being very cautious!

I'm confused about what Leah is saying as well. We got our dogs to have them as part of our family, no intention to breed them as I prefer to leave that to people who know what they're doing.


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## LilyMyLove (Jul 11, 2009)

Leah said:


> _*
> I'm worried that it will become difficult and/or unaffordable to buy a pure bred dog from anyone other than a puppy mill in the future. With limited AKC registration, the number of people (breeders?) who can sell puppies that can be registered with the AKC on any level will be severely limited.
> *_
> 
> ...


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Right on Meghan. That's exactly what we try to do!
Carole


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## Lunastar (Feb 9, 2009)

I think to breed and do it right, correct me if I'm wrong you good breeders here, you need not only knowledge of showing but of genetics. I think a good understanding of genetics is important to improve the health of the breed. I also don't think good breeder make much money. I'm betting they are lucky if they break even. Between the health testing and the regular vet costs even 2500 dollars per puppy does not cover costs, especially if a problem arises during birth. 

We too are very enthusiastic about our girls. We also stress the importance of finding a good breeder, not using pet stores and ending up with a mill dog. We heavily promote rescue. 

As for being a snob, there is nothing wrong with buying a puppy from a good breeder, but you can get a pure breed from a rescue.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Getting caught up on this thread since I haven't received updated notifications......I made it through 7 pages! WHEW! :faint:


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Leah, I'm confused. If you were interested in breeding why did you buy puppies with limited registration. Why not buy show pups and show them to their championship, then consider breeding after learning more about the specifics of this breed.


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## casperkeep (May 16, 2007)

I am soooo confused here....been reading but man oh man its up and down. I let people know what my babies are and if they are interested in them then I recommened they go to a reputable breeder or look into havanese rescue. Its all about what people are willing to spend and what they want....I think that is about like life too. I love my babies and would do anything for them...even the sad stuff like having them put to rest to ease there suffering. Well thats my two cents worth.


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

I'm w/Megan, sooo confused...

Also, like Megan, I do tell folks what breed Tori is, I strongly emphasize only getting one from a good breeder (even offer to give names of those I know personally :biggrin1 I also _really_ play up the high maintenance factor of these guys. I know for a fact several have been dissuaded because of me telling them about their "velcro-ness" (I can't remember when the last time was that I was in the bathroom alone ound, their possible SA issues, grooming, etc.

Most of the folks I talk to about our breed are showing an interest because of seeing the way Tori is (sweet-natured, looks pretty, minds well, does cute tricks, etc.). I always let them know I have spent _many_ hours on training her and if they want one that will be like her, they'll have to put in that kind of time, too.

I use these interactions as an opportunity to educate folks about, not only our breed, but about the other things mentioned by others (BYB's, puppy mills, pet stores, etc.)


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## tabby2 (Jan 19, 2009)

Leslie said:


> Most of the folks I talk to about our breed are showing an interest because of seeing the way Tori is (sweet-natured, looks pretty, minds well, does cute tricks, etc.). I always let them know I have spent _many_ hours on training her and if they want one that will be like her, they'll have to put in that kind of time, too.


What???? You mean Tori didn't just come that way??????


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

tabby2 said:


> What???? You mean Tori didn't just come that way??????


Jane, you kill me! ound:


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

LilyMyLove said:


> Everyone's responses to this thread have been interesting to read. I understand the impulse to be protective of the breed but I keep going back to one simple fact: if someone hadn't been kind enough to tell me about their wonderful Havanese and let me enjoy her I wouldn't have ended up with Lily. I think it's safe to assume that everyone on this forum heard about the Havanese breed _somewhere_.
> 
> Maybe the silver lining about the popularity of the breed is that when people recognize your dog is a Hav or ask about him/her is a great opportunity to educate at the same time. Share positives AND negatives. Share about the HRI and the importance of selecting a good breeder and avoiding pet shops and puppy mills.


It's not safe! :spy: Before beginning my journey to own a Havanese, I had never seen or heard of one! I knew my dog was getting to the end of her life and started doing on-line research to find the best match for when I chose a new dog. I made a list of all the things I wanted my dog to be and then searched for the dog that met that criteria. I also spoke with Hav owners and breeders through e-mail. Only after doing the research did I go to a dog show and see Havanese in person and speak with a breeder to confirm this was the breed of dog I wanted. :becky:


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Leah, If you do not mind me asking, where did you get your Hav's from?

Ryan
PS-- this thread confuses me greatly! lol


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

Leah said:


> I'm not going to bring my puppies' breeder into this discussion. That is irrelevent.


I think you are correct, the breeder's name is not important in the discussion.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I don't get the "beat you to death" part. For myself, I just didn't understand why you were having this problem, so I asked.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

Not beat to death, just asked valid questions of posts that were confusing. 

There have been some controversial threads on the forum in the past and this one has, apparently, become controversial as well. When someone is evasive it raises a red flag, that made others who are passionate about the well being of the breed ask more questions and try to respond in an effort to educate and explain their own feelings. I find it sad that Leah would just choose to end the discussion.


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## casperkeep (May 16, 2007)

I agree with you Ann. I find it very confusing though while I went back read the posts. I think we were all just confused and asked then that lead to more confusion. Oh well we all love this breed and are passionate about it.


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## LilyMyLove (Jul 11, 2009)

good buddy said:


> It's not safe! :spy: Before beginning my journey to own a Havanese, I had never seen or heard of one! I knew my dog was getting to the end of her life and started doing on-line research to find the best match for when I chose a new dog. I made a list of all the things I wanted my dog to be and then searched for the dog that met that criteria. I also spoke with Hav owners and breeders through e-mail. Only after doing the research did I go to a dog show and see Havanese in person and speak with a breeder to confirm this was the breed of dog I wanted. :becky:


Christy,
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify my statement. I don't mean the first time you ever heard the breed mentioned period. I think that all the Hav owners and breeders you e-mailed with and saw at the dog show contributed to your knowledge about the breed and shared (hopefully) positive experiences with you. If people said negative things or were extremely close-lipped about it that I reached out to I don't know that I would have chosen this breed.

Reading some posts about people that choose not to tell people what kind of dog they have when asked or share about the breed in general it struck me that while I completely understand the philosophy behind that; I would never have ended up with Lily if people I talked to before making the final decision had not been so open, friendly, and helpful! eace: Just one positive I could forsee about the popularity of the breed increasing.


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

LilyMyLove said:


> Reading some posts about people that choose not to tell people what kind of dog they have when asked or share about the breed in general it struck me that while I completely understand the philosophy behind that; I would never have ended up with Lily if people I talked to before making the final decision had not been so open, friendly, and helpful! eace: Just one positive I could forsee about the popularity of the breed increasing.


Oh ok, now I understand what you meant! Yeah, I talk to people honestly explaining both the pros and cons of owning a Havanese just as did all the people I spoke with. I think you can tell who is obviously interested in learning about the breed, where some only ask becasue they want to pet the nice doggy. With those people I don't go into much detail.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

LilyMyLove said:


> Reading some posts about people that choose not to tell people what kind of dog they have when asked or share about the breed in general it struck me that while I completely understand the philosophy behind that; I would never have ended up with Lily if people I talked to before making the final decision had not been so open, friendly, and helpful! eace: Just one positive I could forsee about the popularity of the breed increasing.


So true, Lily. I think I said it earlier (but am not going to look back through this crazy topic to find it - ha!). As a breeder, I often have multiple dogs when I go somewhere and do not like to share which breed they are if someone seems to have an odd interest or if I'm in front of my house. If I am out somewhere with only one dog and they seem to be more interested in the breed in general, then I don't mind sharing. It honestly depends on how they approach me and express an interest. I still try to share information in a balanced manner and not say "this is the best breed ever!" even though that is how I feel.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Havtahava said:


> So true, Lily. I think I said it earlier (but am not going to look back through this crazy topic to find it - ha!). As a breeder, I often have multiple dogs when I go somewhere and do not like to share which breed they are if someone seems to have an odd interest or if I'm in front of my house. If I am out somewhere with only one dog and they seem to be more interested in the breed in general, then I don't mind sharing. It honestly depends on how they approach me and express an interest. I still try to share information in a balanced manner and not say "this is the best breed ever!" even though that is how I feel.


Not to mention you have been one of the most helpful breeders on this forum!!!! Kimberly has been on this forum for a long time and is alway's willing to help anyone who asks for help.


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## Lunastar (Feb 9, 2009)

Today was grandparents day at my granddaughters school. What this really means is that it is day one of the book fair so please come buy lots of books for your grandchild. Well of course as an avid reader I want my granddaughter(5) to become a reader so I'm in hook, line and sinker. We have a pile of books and she spots these little stuffed animals in a carry bag. She wants, I say no we have enough. The line is long, feels like miles. Well we are waiting so I think what the heck, I tell her to go pick one while I watch. Well she brings back a little back with a cute little black and white dog, I say oh this is like Zoey(one of my girls) or Oreo(her family's rat terrier). Upon further inspection the bag says my first Havanese puppy. Yep I'm worried. Thank you scholastic. Bet the book doesn't say a thing about finding a good breeder, or seperation anxiety, etc.

I think what has to be done is that all puppy mills need to be put out of business. We need federal regulations so it is not a state by state thing. I know people will continue to breed illegally but it would probably be much harder to sell those puppies if there were deep fines to the pets stores that would sell them.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

not how I envisioned this thread going...but when I tried to think what it was I really wanted out of it I couldn't word it right. the beauty of on-line, it will go where it will go! 

Bottom line for me, I am glad the HF is here to help we when we run into problems and to help educate those interested in the breed.


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

Missy said:


> not how I envisioned this thread going...but when I tried to think what it was I really wanted out of it I couldn't word it right. the beauty of on-line, it will go where it will go!
> 
> Bottom line for me, I am glad the HF is here to help we when run into problems and to help educate those interested in the breed.


Well said, Missy. I for one thank you for starting the thread. It is never easy to start discussions such as this, and as you say they will go where they will go. It did bring up a lot of interesting points and thoughts though, and I for one was left with much to think about.

Tone and nuance are nearly impossible to convey in this type of discourse, but I think as a whole, this group does a good job at keeping things civil. Sometimes in our quest and zeal for clarity, some may end up feeling 'beat up' but I really do not see that as anyone's intent.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

I'm understanding your interest, Leah, and also where you're coming from. Thank you for the explanations.  

I love to talk about my Havs as well, but I also mention all the pros and cons and suggest people look up breed clubs, the CKC, and find reputable breeders if they're at all interested. At the store I work at, I suggest these things for all breeds anyway, guess it's just the 'teacher' in me, and I may be boring to some of those people asking the questions, but I don't care! lol 

Leah, is it me, or are you behind in sharing some pictures of your new puppies? Not in this thread, mind you, but care to post some?


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Ah Leah, now I get it. Your first paragraph in your last post makes it all crystal clear. Thanks.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Leah said:


> Continue on then. I never meant to be evasive. Many of us have our talents, mine is numbers and some of yours' are words. I understand and agree with everyone's desire to improve the breed as opposed to degrade it. The limited registration is new to me as of about three months ago and the change is taking some getting used to for me. Prior to buying my Havanese puppies, the last puppy I bought was 20 years ago. Full registration was the only form of registration at that time.
> 
> My mother was a Shetland Sheepdog breeder who owned or bred many champions. I am coming from the mindset of a responsible breeder. If one of my puppies had full registration and I were to breed her, it would only be to a stud who could improve on her confirmation. If she were not show quality, I probably would not breed her at all. These were two of the criteria my mother used when she ran her breeding program. She never made any money in the dog business. Her goal was for a puppy who could become a champion. The successful breeders I know in Shetland Sheepdogs are not in the breed to sell puppies, it's for the glory of a championship and Best in Show wins.
> 
> My comments may have been confusing because I have a different frame of reference than many of you. I apologize for that.


I understand where you are coming from. My mother bred poodles 20-30 years ago and the way that things were done then...are very different. Dogs were still shown but the rules were very different..Perception is relevant to where you are standing. ~ I don't think you've done anything wrong, just a little bit of generation-gap in school of thought on breeding...


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

Missy said:


> not how I envisioned this thread going...but when I tried to think what it was I really wanted out of it I couldn't word it right. the beauty of on-line, it will go where it will go!
> 
> Bottom line for me, I am glad the HF is here to help we when we run into problems and to help educate those interested in the breed.


Missy, how did you think it would go and what did you have in mind? Just curious, thanks for sharing!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Flynn, I guess I wanted more of a sharing of positive things we can do. Not just the puppy mill thing. But I can't seem to put it into words, I can't think of anything, so maybe there isn't any there there. Maybe I just sort of had this sad feeling that this forum and therefore the breed seems to be multiplying by tens daily. Just 4 years ago I had a hard time founding a breeder who thought we had a worthy home for a Neezer (I only work from home part of the week) That does not seem to be a problem anymore...if you want a Havanese you can find one. So I guess where the thread has gone is appropriate. I don't know...just a little sad for the loss of our exclusivity.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

Missy said:


> Flynn, I guess I wanted more of a sharing of positive things we can do. Not just the puppy mill thing. But I can't seem to put it into words, I can't think of anything, so maybe there isn't any there there. Maybe I just sort of had this sad feeling that this forum and therefore the breed seems to be multiplying by tens daily. Just 4 years ago I had a hard time founding a breeder who thought we had a worthy home for a Neezer (I only work from home part of the week) That does not seem to be a problem anymore...if you want a Havanese you can find one. So I guess where the thread has gone is appropriate. I don't know...just a little sad for the loss of our exclusivity.


I think I see what you mean. Actually when I was looking a few yeas ago I studied all the breeds, actually bought a huge book and started researching. I had just lost my min pin at 16 years of age, he was not healthy toward the end, and then lost one who was a companion a couple of years later , he had cancer of the jaw, and that was horrible. I was so very attached to them. So I did not have a dog for 2 or 3 years. I had cats, who remained, so I was not petless. But when I finally did start looking again I researched fewest health problems and longevity. Sooner or later i could see what popularity had done to so many breeds I began to see the results of "popularity". It is not a pretty sight. I actually chose 3 suitable and one was the Hav. At that time it was NOT popular and you were warned in the book you might have to wait for a puppy. (Not so now, unless you want a particular line/kennel) I literally cringed when the President received BO as a gift from Kennedy. I immediately started monitoring the PWD list to see where this might end. PWDC of America has one of the best health research programs going on in all the world I would say. They spent much money, time and shared each other's health problems in order to have all this. They are working hard to avoid some of the breeding pitfalls that come with popularity. But you will now be able to find PWDs on Petfinder...some are mixed some claim to be pure bred. Many of them sell only on limited reg. I hope they succeed.
I too wish this little breed had stayed exclusive, for everyone's sake but especially for the little neezers. Geri told me about this Forum 3 or more years ago I guess, I find it to be so friendly. I have to admit you can spend all day here and feel like you are with family. And it makes you want more HAVS...MHS is rampant!! I truly wish I had an answer, but sad to say, how do you put the "worms" back in the can? Any ideas???


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Missy, as for how this forum has changed, wow, has it! And here we are with MANY new members and new neezers. Some of us are tired of repeating ourselves and some of us are happy to give back what we got.

I, for one, do not come here nearly as often as I used to, and I'm not proud of that. We are a big asset to our wonderful breed as we share, warn and advise. This forum family has brought me wonderful friends from around the country (world!) 

I intend to visit this site more often and do my part in paying it back!!

Please everyone, be kind.

Carole


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

mellowbo said:


> Please everyone, be kind.


:amen:


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## descha (Jul 3, 2009)

Well, I am first time Havanese owner of two puppies, 10 and 8 months old (not related) and up until tonight they have been the sweetest things you could ever imagine.

Then the unthinkable happened; the 10 month old snapped at a little girl at our obedience class. This made me very upset as he has shown absolutely no signs of this behavior at all. He was doing the stand/stay and a stranger is supposed come up and talk to them and touch them and they are not supposed to move. This little girl came over and went to touch his back and he snapped at her. Didn't get her but now I am just bonkers! 

This is probably not the right forum for my concern but it was the first one I found. I purchased from a reputable breeder and visited her home before buying. I will be emailing her next. Any suggestions as to what to do? After we were done with the class I walked over to the little girl (maybe 10-11 years old) and asked her to take his leash and walk him around the room once. I love Cesar Milan and he says the walk is the best way to make friends and become the pack leader. But he is a severe "mama's boy" also... Again, any suggestions??


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

descha said:


> Well, I am first time Havanese owner of two puppies, 10 and 8 months old (not related) and up until tonight they have been the sweetest things you could ever imagine.
> 
> Then the unthinkable happened; the 10 month old snapped at a little girl at our obedience class. This made me very upset as he has shown absolutely no signs of this behavior at all. He was doing the stand/stay and a stranger is supposed come up and talk to them and touch them and they are not supposed to move. This little girl came over and went to touch his back and he snapped at her. Didn't get her but now I am just bonkers!
> 
> This is probably not the right forum for my concern but it was the first one I found. I purchased from a reputable breeder and visited her home before buying. I will be emailing her next. Any suggestions as to what to do? After we were done with the class I walked over to the little girl (maybe 10-11 years old) and asked her to take his leash and walk him around the room once. I love Cesar Milan and he says the walk is the best way to make friends and become the pack leader. But he is a severe "mama's boy" also... Again, any suggestions??


What you have to do is socialize him to kids. How is he generally around them.? Email me privately . we don't want to get off topic of this thread.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

descha said:


> Well, I am first time Havanese owner of two puppies, 10 and 8 months old (not related) and up until tonight they have been the sweetest things you could ever imagine.
> 
> Then the unthinkable happened; the 10 month old snapped at a little girl at our obedience class. This made me very upset as he has shown absolutely no signs of this behavior at all. He was doing the stand/stay and a stranger is supposed come up and talk to them and touch them and they are not supposed to move. This little girl came over and went to touch his back and he snapped at her. Didn't get her but now I am just bonkers!
> 
> This is probably not the right forum for my concern but it was the first one I found. I purchased from a reputable breeder and visited her home before buying. I will be emailing her next. Any suggestions as to what to do? After we were done with the class I walked over to the little girl (maybe 10-11 years old) and asked her to take his leash and walk him around the room once. I love Cesar Milan and he says the walk is the best way to make friends and become the pack leader. But he is a severe "mama's boy" also... Again, any suggestions??


Have the puppies been around children before? Too many variables here, I don't know how to answer but I think you will get some sincere guidance from some who know far more than I. Also wonder if there is someone in your area you might help evaluate?? You are in Batavia???


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

davetgabby said:


> What you have to do is socialize him to kids. How is he generally around them.? Email me privately . we don't want to get off topic of this thread.


Thanks Dave!!


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

davetgabby said:


> What you have to do is socialize him to kids. How is he generally around them.? Email me privately . we don't want to get off topic of this thread.


Dave can you post results, etc., elsewhere under an appropriate thread, I would love to hear


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> Dave can you post results, etc., elsewhere under an appropriate thread, I would love to hear


Hi Flynn. Here is an article to read that actually was just posted on Dog Star Daily by one of our members at IPDTA. It's called TRUST. http://dogstardaily.com/blogs/dog-we-trust…-feeling-mutual And here is another article http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/teach-your-puppy-and-respect-people


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