# Chalk or no Chalk



## mnmsfam2003 (Feb 3, 2013)

Hello everyone!!

We've got a puppy that we've been taking to conformation classes and we showed him in a puppy match (and he won group!-yeah, I know it doesnt count..). Our conformation instructor said that a lot of show dogs chalk the whites. I've been to a couple of shows and see gleaming whites, and granted, some owners say that their dog is naturally tear and muzzle stain free. Some have given suggestions for cleaning that area as well. 

My question: is chalking taboo? Like people do it, but dont talk about it? I've been searching these forums of ours and nada info on the subject (using either "powder" or "chalk"). 

Just curious. We've been just using the blue shampoo, but he's teething, so his muzzlel stays a litle brownish.

Thanks for your help in advance!

Angel


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

interesting, never heard of chalking, but I don't show... hopefully some of our show dog owners will see your post and answer you soon! 
welcome to the forum!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I know that all the bred standard says is:

"Havanese should be shown as naturally as is consistent with good grooming."

But I also know that LOTS of people use hair spray to keep the hair back out of their eyes, and also chalk their feet. It's REALLY hard to keep long haired white feet clean on the black rubber matting of a show ring. (I don't know anyone personally who chalks faces, but I'm not saying no one does) And since these dogs are shown by people who know what they are doing, I guess it's considered "consistent with good grooming".


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

A lot of chalking goes to harsh coated terrier breeds ie airedales, welsh terriers, also westies. I have tried chalk on my dog but decided against using it again - it was hard to get out of the coat and didn't make much of a difference. However, if you want to try I suggest the powder made by Pure Paws, only BC it worked really nicely on a Maltese and the CC powder I used, I didn't like.


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Here is the link for the chalk section, you can see before the chalk the Maltese has visible eye stains (more on one side than the other). It is the top knot video for a show groom, so it's pretty intense, but interesting. The chalk needs to be washed out afterwards because it can clog the pores. You also don't want to apply so much that it comes off - the judge won't like that.


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

I remember when I went to horse shows as a kid, people used corn starch to brighten the white on the horses. I use corn starch on Jack to get tangles and knots out. It does brighten.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

atsilvers27 said:


> A lot of chalking goes to harsh coated terrier breeds ie airedales, welsh terriers, also westies. I have tried chalk on my dog but decided against using it again - it was hard to get out of the coat and didn't make much of a difference. However, if you want to try I suggest the powder made by Pure Paws, only BC it worked really nicely on a Maltese and the CC powder I used, I didn't like.


The Havanese I've seen chalked, are dark dogs with white paws, so there is a clearly defined area that tends to get dirty at shows. The chalk was put on the feet ringside... Just before entering the ring. I think it would be a lot harder with a dog that was mostly white, trying to decide where to stop... You'd end with a totally chalky dog!


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## CacheHavs (Aug 2, 2007)

Since I am a "Show" breeder, I will chime in here. I have been breeding and showing dogs for over 30 years. I personally do not like the mess of chalking, and therefore I do not do it. I have had great success with showing my dogs and not one of them ever has chalk in thier coats. for a show dog with white I just suggest that you continue to keep them as clean as possible. if you go out and have a fun wet day in red mud, then immediately after returning they would straight into the bath and cleaned. With the white faces, I clean them everyday and and while on off days from a show will keep cornstarch in near their eyes to help keep them dry, thus keeping less staining. 
If your dog is teething then expect to see tear staining, but stay consistent with the washing each day around the eyes and applying the cornstarch.

Here is a photo of my white girl that is now retired from the ring, but in her career she has 5 champion and Grand champion titles from all over Europe and here in the U.S.

This is a photo of her winning our nationals in 2011









And a photo of her first weekend out as a special


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Thanks Heather! Your insight is always appreciated.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

She's gorgeous, Heather! But I think the original question was whether it is "OK" to chalk if someone chooses to? This is a matter of preference, right? (assuming it's not so over-done that you're getting chalk all over the judge! )


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## CacheHavs (Aug 2, 2007)

Karen- Actually, NO. The Havanese are suppose to be shown natural, they are not to have any substance in their coat. But like all things in dogs, you will have those that will continue to cheat, or do anything to win. There are now many handlers who are also sculpting the coats, and that is a huge no no :nono:
I find that the people who do things like sculpting the coat or applying chalks to bring out any color (mainly white) is just cheating, and/or being lazy to not keep their dogs coat and in the best condition they can. am I saying they should not allow their dogs to be dogs? Absolutely not. All of my dogs run together they play and rough house just as much as the next, but what I am saying is when you are showing/campaining a dog you have to brush and comb them sometimes a couple times a day, change the hair bands daily etc. Doing this and staying consistant you can be just as competitive and the ones who do continue to cheat.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

CacheHavs said:


> Karen- Actually, NO. The Havanese are suppose to be shown natural, they are not to have any substance in their coat. But like all things in dogs, you will have those that will continue to cheat, or do anything to win. There are now many handlers who are also sculpting the coats, and that is a huge no no :nono:
> I find that the people who do things like sculpting the coat or applying chalks to bring out any color (mainly white) is just cheating, and/or being lazy to not keep their dogs coat and in the best condition they can. am I saying they should not allow their dogs to be dogs? Absolutely not. All of my dogs run together they play and rough house just as much as the next, but what I am saying is when you are showing/campaining a dog you have to brush and comb them sometimes a couple times a day, change the hair bands daily etc. Doing this and staying consistant you can be just as competitive and the ones who do continue to cheat.


Thanks for the clarification, Heather. I THOUGHT it wasn't allowed, but then saw so many people using both chalk and hair spar... Then I looked in the rules, and it SPECIFICALLY says that there is no sculpting or hair adornments allowed, but says nothing about chalk, spray or other "hair products". It's hard to know where they draw the line.

And I KNOW that even a "pet" or performance Havanese can be kept clean and neat in long coat, and allowed to be a "normal dog" because Kodi does it all the time. He CERTAINLY doesn't get chalked or sprayed!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Oh, and pets or show dogs... leaving hair up constantly is a pet peeve of mine... As someone who grew up as a little girl with long braids, I know that having them left in for long periods made my scalp very uncomfortable. Kodi's hair always is taken out at night. He've very cute. You say, "Want your pony out?" and he comes RUNNING over for you to take it out and skritch his head for him!


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

krandall said:


> You say, "Want your pony out?" and he comes RUNNING over for you to take it out and skritch his head for him!


That is adorable....


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## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

krandall said:


> You say, "Want your pony out?" and he comes RUNNING over for you to take it out and skritch his head for him!


:laugh:Very cute!


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## m0rg4n (Feb 8, 2013)

krandall said:


> Oh, and pets or show dogs... leaving hair up constantly is a pet peeve of mine... As someone who grew up as a little girl with long braids, I know that having them left in for long periods made my scalp very uncomfortable. Kodi's hair always is taken out at night. He've very cute. You say, "Want your pony out?" and he comes RUNNING over for you to take it out and skritch his head for him!


But how did you get him to stand still enough to get the pony IN?!!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

m0rg4n said:


> But how did you get him to stand still enough to get the pony IN?!!


patience and time...  and doing it every day so they know it is just another part of thier day and that they can't get out of it. like grooming.


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## m0rg4n (Feb 8, 2013)

TilliesMom said:


> patience and time...  and doing it every day so they know it is just another part of thier day and that they can't get out of it. like grooming.


"Patience" ... I really do just hate that answer


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## HalleBerry (Feb 22, 2012)

It's actually not a personal preference - it's a calculated risk as it is a disqualification in the rules for AKC shows: "A dog is considered changed in appearance by artificial
means if it has been subjected to any type of procedure,
substance or drugs that ... does anything to improve a dog’s natural appearance,
temperament, bite or gait."

Do people do it all the time? Sure. But you need to know what the risk is.


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## CacheHavs (Aug 2, 2007)

Sara you are correct with most of it, other that it is not a DQ but rather should be "Severely Penalized, as to preclude placement". 
Here is part of the breed standard that I pulled from HCA's web site with presentation and falts


> *Presentation
> *Havanese should be shown as naturally as is consistent with good grooming. They may be shown either brushed or corded. The coat should be clean and well conditioned. In mature dogs, the length of the coat may cause it to fall to either side down the back but it should not be deliberately parted. Head furnishings are long and untrimmed, and may fall forward over the eyes or to both sides of the head; they may also be held in two small braids secured with plain elastic bands. The braids start above the inside corner of each eye and extend at least to the outside corner, forming the appearance of eyebrows. No other hair accessories are permitted. *Minimal* trimming of the anal and genital area is permissible but should not be noticeable on presentation. Hair on the feet and between the pads should be neatly trimmed. *No* other trimming or *sculpting of the coat is permitted and is to be so severely penalized as to preclude placement*. Havanese should be presented at a natural speed on a loose lead to properly assess the characteristic springy gait.
> 
> *Faults*
> The foregoing description is that of the ideal Havanese. Any deviation from the above described dog must be penalized to the extent of the deviation.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

m0rg4n said:


> "Patience" ... I really do just hate that answer


Ha! in the beginning, I found that it was easiest to get him to keep it in if he was doing something that distracted him for a while afterwards. For instance, I would put it in JUST before getting in the car to go to class, or JUST before heading out on a walk. When he was just getting used to it, if if I put it in and let him go, he'd IMMEDIATELY go and rub it out on the rug!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

HalleBerry said:


> It's actually not a personal preference - it's a calculated risk as it is a disqualification in the rules for AKC shows: "A dog is considered changed in appearance by artificial
> means if it has been subjected to any type of procedure,
> substance or drugs that ... does anything to improve a dog's natural appearance,
> temperament, bite or gait."
> ...


Wow! That's annoying... When you see how many people in the prep area, RIGHT outside the ring, are covering their dogs with chalk, hair spray etc. (not just Havanese... Lots of breeds)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

CacheHavs said:


> Sara you are correct with most of it, other that it is not a DQ but rather should be "Severely Penalized, as to preclude placement".
> Here is part of the breed standard that I pulled from HCA's web site with presentation and falts


This is what I saw too. But I took it to mean that what was to be severely penalized was any trimming or sculpting (other than minimal sanitary). It doesn't LOOK like it specifically precludes hair spray or chalk. But, of course, I'm a TOTAL novice trying to read this and make sense of it.


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## CacheHavs (Aug 2, 2007)

Karen, here is the section in the AKC Rules handbook that states about altering the color of a dog


> Color:
> 
> Under Chapter 11, Section 8C, of the Rules to withhold awards from any
> dog which, in your opinion, has had its natural color or markings changed.
> ...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

CacheHavs said:


> Karen, here is the section in the AKC Rules handbook that states about altering the color of a dog


I can see that pertaining to blacking noses and eye rims, or covering up faulty markings, but would that include chalking eye stains (like in the video Angela posted) or white, but dingy feet?

Also, what's your opinion on hair spray. I'm not saying I think it's right or wrong, I'm just trying to understand the rules.


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## CacheHavs (Aug 2, 2007)

krandall said:


> I can see that pertaining to blacking noses and eye rims, or covering up faulty markings, but would that include chalking eye stains (like in the video Angela posted) or white, but dingy feet?
> 
> Also, what's your opinion on hair spray. I'm not saying I think it's right or wrong, I'm just trying to understand the rules.


Yes it means any color alteration. I know of a few different handlers (in different breeds) that have literally dyed (colored) a whole dog (one being an Affenpinscher) to make him much blacker and shinier than most and he was a #1 dog for a few years. I also knew of a boxer person doing the same.

I remember a few years back several handlers were rushing back to brush out the chalk and hairspray on their dogs because they got word that if the judge felt any thing of substance in the coats they would excuse them.

So I guess what I am saying is it is not allowed, but it is done more that you realize and it depends more on the judge if they choose to up hold the rules. I do not use hair spray, but have used very little thick and thicker just to help hold the hair back, but it is brushed out before entering the ring, and usually by the time we leave the ring, my dogs are back to looking like cousin it again  But I do see some of these handlers using real stiff hair spray like they use on the poodles, and that I am against.


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## Cailleach (Jan 30, 2010)

I was benched next to a boxer kennel and I was watching them paint their dogs. It was surprising to me that they used so much makeup...noses filled in with black and coats dusted with assorted pigmented colors. I tested a chalk stick and washed it out, it looked phoney. My girl has some rust staining on her chin but for the rare chance that I would be caught "cheating" for the fee of $30.00 a day per dog I'll just play by the rules. They are still just puppies so no hairspray required but I do use "magic mommy spit" to slick back their headpieces in the ring. :wink:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Cailleach said:


> I do use "magic mommy spit" to slick back their headpieces in the ring. :wink:


Ha! I love it!!!


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