# I am in shock



## MopTop Havanese

Ok, so most of you know that Jester had bladder stone removal surgery about a month ago. Well, fast forward to this week. I had my sweet Daisy at the vet yesterday, and she has bladder stones too! Her surgery is scheduled for next Tues. :jaw: I am just in shock. I can't belive two of my dogs are sick with bladder stones. Whats the coincidence? This is now my vet's 4th case since January, and all the dogs were eating Canidae dog food. 
So if you are feeding Canidae, I would stop immediately. I have been in contact with the Canidae company. They asked for all my info, dog info, vet info, retailer info and said they would "investigate" it further. I am hoping they will stand behind their product and best case senerio they will pay for (or at least part of) the $2500 I will have forked out in surgeries for my two babies in the last month.
I am sad.


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## Jill in Mich

Jeez Katie,

I'm so sorry. Poor Daisy. You're right, I hope Canidae pays for the surgeries. Can you have your others checked for stones (at the expense of Canidae, of course)?


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## trueblue

Sorry to hear that Katie. Hope the Canidae folks at least contribute to the medical expenses. And I hope Daisy feels better soon. :hug:


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## pjewel

Katie,

That's scary. I hope Daisy comes through the surgery will no ill effect. Fingers crossed.


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## Poornima

I am sorry to hear this Katie. Wishing Daisy a successfull surgery and quick,healthy recovery!


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## Me&2Girls

Oh man Katie - I'm so sorry about Daisy. Like I was telling you, my cat refused his second bag of food made by the same manufacturer and the reason both my friend and I chose it was for urinary issues in cats - so it sounds like something is going on for sure.

Hugs to both the Jester and Daisy.


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## isshinryu_mom

Oh, no.... I am so sorry for your babies. I have been researching foods because I'm thinking of switching and Canidae was on my short list. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.


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## ama0722

Hugs, that is very scary to go through. What are bladder stones caused by?


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## Petaluna

Hello, I've been following this forum for the past week or so, I don't have a Hav (yet), but I fed my Yorkie on a raw diet from age 4 through almost the end of her life (we had to start cooking it her last year or so as her kidneys were failing), but she did very well on that diet. I would probably feed raw to a Hav if it suited her and she'd eat it, though this time around pay closer attention to mineral supplementation. Several of my yorkie's health issues disappeared once going raw, and she never had a lot of the common problems many dogs seem to get. I know it's a lot more work, but with Havs being so small, maybe you could try one of the frozen pre-made raw diets on the market? Certainly would be cheaper than feeding commercially prepared raw diet to a lab. I have been reading some controversial things about raw bone, and there is one food you can mail order that doesn't contain bone, they claim it's often used as a cheap filler, though the BARF diet says they need bone for calcium. 

Are stones/crystals in the bladder calcium deposits? I wonder if there is something that is keeping them from digesting and processing calcium in their diet. I know in humans, I've read the wrong kind of calcium supplementation can cause calcium deposition in tissues where it shouldn't be.


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## mintchip

:grouphug:WOW Katie I am sorry to hear about Daisy and Jester.I hope everything goes well with the surgery. How is Jester doing?
Thanks for the warning.:grouphug:


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## Jane

Oh no, Katie! I am so sorry to hear about Daisy and Jester - thank goodness your others are okay and that you figured out it may be the food. That is SO scary. I was considering Canidae awhile back - the ingredients look so good and all. Sending healing prayers to Daisy~


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## mellowbo

Oh Katie, I am so sorry to hear about Daisy and Jester. Poor babies. Another irritating story on dog food! My local Pet People store was handing out free large bags of Canadae dog food to everone a couple of weeks ago. Not sample bags, big ones. I still have my un-opened bag as I feed raw. 
Thank you for warning all of us. I wonder what the other dogs who have been getting crystals in their urine are eating??
All of our paws are crossed for a speedy recovery!
hugs
Carole


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## Missy

Oh Katie, how scary. I will be curious to know if Canadae has had other reports across the country.


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## EstrellaVila

Katie, I am so sorry! I can't believe what is going on with the dogs. I hope Canadae figures this out, that is such a strange coincidence. Is there anything else/reports online about this happening? I am sorry again, and I am sending lots of good thoughts and prayers to you and your furbabies.


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## havaluv

Katie, that IS shocking! I bet you were just floored when you found out. Thank you for sharing this information and I'll be praying for both your furbabies' recoveries as well as a good resolution with this dog food company. The info from your vet and your experience with the food should be a big red flag. I sure hope the company will step up and help you pay for those enormous vet bills as well as figure out what the problem is before more animals are hurt. So scary. :hug:


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## KristinFusco

Katie,

I'm so sorry to hear about Daisy and Jester. I am wishing Daisy a speedy recovery and sending her our love.


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## MopTop Havanese

Thank you all for your well wishes. Yes I was floored yesterday at the vets. I actually burst into tears. It's all so overwhelming, and to top it off, I have a girl here recovering from her spay surgery on Tues. I feel like my life has been turned upside down and my house has been turned into a recovery ward! It's so hard/demanding to take care of sick/recovering babies. And now I will do it 3 times in a month!
Calgon take me away~~~~~~


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## Lina

Wow, Katie that must be so tough on you! I'm so sorry about all this. I really do hope that Canidae will pay for the surgeries... that is the least they can do!


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## havaluv

I can't even imagine what a struggle it must be, Katie...it's very natural to feel overwhelmed at the prospect. It is HARD to take care of a recovering dog. The only thought that would get me through it is that this too shall pass. When I'm going through something like that and I know there is a definate time when it will be over, it makes it a bit easier to bear. In a few weeks they'll all be well and back to normal. Granted, it will be a long few weeks! I'm so sorry you have another one to deal with! DRATS! Sending a big :hug: for you.


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## Laurief

Katie, I am so sorry to hear about your two with the bladder stones.
I sadly have some experience in that too, as Lily had the same problem. In all the research that I did, I believe there are several kinds of stones/crystals. Some are callled (I dont know exact spelling) struvalite, and some are calcium (which I believe is what Mijo has). My Lily's were the first kind and she has been on special food since. Her problem is that her body cannot break down the minerals the way it should.
Before we all just to the conclusion that the dog food Co is at fault - are your guys related?? What kind of water do they drink? My guys are on distilled water. My brother also suffers terribly with calcium stones & we found that as kids, our well water was very high in calcium and it was causing the problem. 
I would consult with the vet about what exactly the crystals contain, compare them to jasper's and then go from there. If you give them tap water, have your water checked. It could just be simple fix for it to not happen again. Lily has not had a problem in 3 years now!! 
Good Luck to you Nurse Katie


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## juliav

Katie,

I am so sorry to hear about your babies, first Jester and now Daisey.  I just hope that Canidae will take care of some of that bill.


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## MopTop Havanese

Laurie~
Jesters stones were Struvite. I will find out what type Daisy's are on Tues.
And no, Daisy and Jester aren't related. They drink regular tap water. The same water since we brought Daisy home as a baby over 4 years ago.
I just think it's a little too coincidental that last last fall I switched to Canidae. Jester had his symptoms within a few months of the switch. And now, within a month of each other, two of them have stones~~~


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## dotndani

Hope all goes well with your babies! Please keep us posted as to what is going on as well as what the food company comes back with.


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## polo

Katie- I'm so sorry to hear the bad news!

I'm also a little worried! My 2 dogs eat Canidae. I chose it because I thought it was healthy! Now I'm scared and want to swiitch my boys just to be safe!

I found this website today and was wondering if anyone could suggest a 5 star or 6 star food that they have liked? Cainidae is listed as a 5 star and I'd like to stay with the best foods!

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/index.php/cat/1


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## ama0722

This freaks me out too- especially when canidae is rated as a good food.

What are the symptoms for dogs?


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## Laurief

Katie, I am glad that they are stuvite as I know that, as with Lily, that this can be treated with diet. I never fed that food to my dogs, they had been on Nutro Max, but ever since I went to distilled water, and the Royal Canin SO diet, she has had no problems. Since all three of mine are related, I have them all on the same food, and have never had a problem.
I hope they are able to make Daisy be more comfortable and get those stones out. And then from there, figure out what is causing them. If it is the food, I sure hope they will pay for your bills, as I am sure it is pretty high right now!! Good luck and let us know how Daisy does.


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## Lina

Lauren, Kubrick eats Fromm's Duck and Sweet Potato and he loves it! It's a 5-star food. A lot of people on the forum feed Fromm's, some feed the Chicken a la Veg and others the Salmon. All three of them are good.


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## EstrellaVila

Katie, that is just too much surgery stuff in one month! I am so sorry you have to go through all of this, stay strong and we love you tons!


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## Me&2Girls

Lauren, quite a few people feed Orijen and EVO with good results. If you are concerned about allergies, Natural Balance Duck and Potato is good although you may see a bit drier coats with it. Fromms is good too.


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## Jane

I _really _like the Wellness kibbles - they are listed as 5 star on that site. It smells good (to me), and their coats are doing well on it. It has all the vitamins, minerals, probiotics, etc. that I wanted to see included in a dry dog food. I had dry coats on the Natural Balance Duck and Potato, as Lisa mentioned.

So far, things seem to be going well on Solid Gold Hund N Flocken as well (Lincoln cannot have sweet potatoes and all the Wellness flavors include them), although my preference is still for the Wellness.

A lot of forum people have had good experiences with Fromm's. Depending on where you live, it may or may not be as readily available.


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## whitBmom

Katie, I am sorry to hear Daisy is going thru this aswell.  How awful for her, it has to be the food if both dogs have had this happen and nothing else is causing this. Great advice to do a screen to see what the make-up of the stones are. I really hope the food company helps you out too. Sending good vibes to you and your lovely pups. I hope Jester is healing nicely. :grouphug:


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## Poornima

Me&2Girls said:


> Lauren, quite a few people feed Orijen and EVO with good results. If you are concerned about allergies, Natural Balance Duck and Potato is good although you may see a bit drier coats with it. Fromms is good too.


I agree, Lisa. I notice that Benji was doing better with freshly cooked duck and potato mixed with NB potato and duck kibble. His coat was not so dry with that combination. But Lizzie can't handle it as she gets runs. So I stopped fresh duck and potato. Their coats are definitely drier. But considering their allergies to grains, I have to stick with NB.


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## polo

Thanks for all the suggestions! I'll have to goto the stores near by and see what they have! There was only 1 store in the area that carried the Canidae so I'll start there first!


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## Miss Paige

I feed both mine Raw-Nature's Variety and at times give them the kibbles from Nature's Variety-they seem to like the raw much better.

Pat


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## kelrobin

Wow, Katie, that is so scary. I am so sorry for your little ones. Plus I know it's tough on you along with the extra spay. One of my exercise buddies just told me today that her dog has tons of bladder stones . . . I had never heard of this and now your story!
My friend said her vet is treating her dog's stones with a special food for a month. 

I will have to ask her what she feeds her dog. I actually just opened a can of Canidae for Jackson tonight because he was neutered today and I wanted to give him something soft to take his pain pills in. He usually eats Blue, but I saw it is not rated as high as some of the others, so I may reconsider. What is a mother to do???? :suspicious:


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## Julie

Gosh Katie:hug: You poor thing......:hug:
I hope there are no more surgeries and huge vet bills for you....it does seem like the food you mentioned could be the culprit.I hope you get to the bottom of it and Jester and Daisy have speedy recoveries. Please pass on some belly rubs from Quince and I.


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## Posh's Mom

just got caught up with this thread. poor you katie. i think you should most definitely trust your instincts about the food. that is quite disturbing as i just recommended canidae to a friend to feed her dane, as it is a pretty economical food that is rated highly and that my dane did well on. i will tell her about the stones. i am convinced that our border collie died because of the nutro max dry kibble we fed her. best wishes to you.


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## BeverlyA

Oh Katie, I'm so sorry to hear about Daisy now having to have surgery. If they're anything like kidney stones I REALLY feel bad for Jester and Daisy!

I tried the Canidae for my group and they just didn't care for it. I guess I was lucky.
Best of luck.
Beverly


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## nancyf

Our breeder has been using Canadae for years so Bella has been eating it for 9 months now. I, also, wonder if the water could be the problem--or vitamins or certain treats maybe? What were the first signs that something was wrong? You all have been through an awful ordeal.


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## mellowbo

Katie, Nancy's question interest me too, what are the first signs of a problem?
Carole


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## MopTop Havanese

Jesters symptoms started out as a bladder infection, with a high ph. (he was peeing in the house, which he doesn't do, and his urine was dark and smelly). He was treated with two different anitbiotics over the course of a month before the infection went away. His urine was tested again two weeks after he finished the last of his anitbiotics, and was infection free, but had "sludge" in his bladder (as the vet called it)~ meaning crystals. She hoped they would go away on their own, now that we had the ph back to normal and the infection taken care of. Worst case senerio the crystals form into stones, which is what happened with Jester. His stones formed in only 2 weeks. (all of this was seen via ultrasound at the vets).
Daisy has shown no symptoms of a bladder infection. I noticed last week she was "marking" alot in the back yard, but I thought it was because we had the puppies running and playing back there. Then last Tues I noticed a pink tinge on the hair near her vulva. And when I looked a little closer, I noticed a strong odor. I know now that was blood in her urine caused by the stones. I asked the vet why Daisy didn't show the same signs/symptoms that Jester did. She said because a female urethra is different than a males, that sometimes they don't have the same signs. She did say that Daisy's stones have probably been there for some time. My poor girl!


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## kelrobin

Katie
I just looked at my can of Canidae and it sounds so nutritious. Do you do the dry and/or the canned? I saw an article in our paper yesterday by the United Features Syndicate pet columnist, Dr. Fox. I can't get a link to it, but have attached a scan (way too much for me to type!) Interesting info about the herb "chanca piedra." Wonder if anyone else has heard of this. 

I hope you can see it:


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## MopTop Havanese

Thanks so much for the article~ There is a difference between the calcium stones that dog had, and the stones Jester had, his are Struvite stones.
I talked to the vet about him being on a special food, and she didn't feel that was necessary~maybe she will change her tune now that both dogs got stones.
Oh, and I know a few people questioned our water. My dogs get regular tap water out of metal bowls. The same water they have had their whole lives. I would think that all of my dogs would have stones if it was the water. But Heidi and Emmy were both on puppy kibble and not eating the Canadae. And once Havana was preggo she was switched to puppy food also. It was just Jester and Daisy that ate the Canadae for the longest time. 
*Edited to add that they were eating the dry Chicken and Rice*


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## Laurief

Poor Daisy- When Lily had her bouts, she too had the bloody area & smell. And she would go out and squat for a LONG LONG time, over and over again. that is our signal that something is wrong. I am so thankfull that we have been infection and crystal free for 3 years now. I hope they find the problem.

Katie, the water still might be the culprit. Jester and Daisy may just break down minerals in a different way, and that it why it bothers them and not the others.


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## DanielBMe

polo said:


> Katie- I'm so sorry to hear the bad news!
> 
> I'm also a little worried! My 2 dogs eat Canidae. I chose it because I thought it was healthy! Now I'm scared and want to swiitch my boys just to be safe!
> 
> I found this website today and was wondering if anyone could suggest a 5 star or 6 star food that they have liked? Cainidae is listed as a 5 star and I'd like to stay with the best foods!
> 
> http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/index.php/cat/1


Although my guys are now fed raw I did feed them Innova and EVO and they did well on both. I highly recommend them. Orijen was good too but their poops were so foul smelling that I couldn't take it lol


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## Redorr

polo said:


> Katie- I'm so sorry to hear the bad news!
> 
> I found this website today and was wondering if anyone could suggest a 5 star or 6 star food that they have liked? Cainidae is listed as a 5 star and I'd like to stay with the best foods!
> 
> http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/index.php/cat/1


I feed Lola Nature's Variety kibble - a mix of Instinct (grain free) and Prairie (w/grains) and add in a reconstituted Nature's Variety freeze dried raw medallion. It seems to be wroking well, her stools are firm enough, and "output" her volume is lower than when she was eating grain-free, so I feel she must be getting more nutrition from the grains. It is a top rated food. NV also has frozen raw food, but it is too complicated given our lifestyle.


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## ginny

I had a Bichon with calcium oxalate stones and struvite stones. The most painful part seemed to be the crystals, the vet said this feels like cut glass moving through. When both types of stones are present (there are more than two types of stones) then there is dietary change and the Ph is kept within the desired range for the calcium oxalate stones but it needs to balance so the strive do not form. Struvite usually occur with an infection, sometimes a few months of antibiotics will be given.

We did two surgeries for the calcium oxalate stones. There was follow up with cathed urine and measuring the urine pH as well as scanning the bladder. The stones returned each time. The second surgery the vet actually rinsed the bladder inside out to try to get every particle. The dog had the stones again within weeks.

I tried to quote last week from the medical chart but the forum would not accept the post. My vet feels U Minn is the authority on stones and he was in close contact with them. Try their web page for more information.

Also, many human foods can increase the risk of stones. We used to have a chart on the fridge and I still have it in my Bichon's old medical file if anyone is interested. You can get the list of foods on the web, and I imagine the UMinn web site on stones has this info as well.

I hope the problem clears up. I could tell when my Bichon had stones because he would not pee in the house but he would poop inside. This meant he was sick. He did spend several nights standing outside, trying and trying to pee.


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## Jane

Oh, Katie. I am so sorry to hear the details of this. I also suspect that the food is the more likely culprit than the water. For peace of mind, I hope you can find another kibble that they will like and thrive on. This is just so heartbreaking.


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## gelbergirl

healing thoughts to all . .


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## DAJsMom

I've been (not) enjoying some kidney stones of my own the last few months. I feel for the dogs. They must be miserable. 
In people, struvite stones are usually caused by chronic urinary tract infections. I don't know if that's the case in dogs or not. 
Hope Daisy's surgery goes well and the dogs get some relief! I also hope you find the cause and can prevent this from happening again!


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## Cheryl

Katie--I just got home to hear your sad story. I am sorry you have to go through this. Have you heard from the dog food company yet?


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## MopTop Havanese

Nope~
Haven't heard back yet. They said it could take up to business days to get in contact and speak with my vet. So the waiting game is on~~~


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## marjrc

Katie, that's going to be rough, on you and on the dogs... all that post-op recovery.  Poor things.

The store I work at sells quite a bit of the Canidae and I haven't heard of problems with bladder stones, but I will talk to the store owner about it this week. I'm curious to see if he knows anything about that. We are all so very much involved in canine nutrition and health. 

I wonder if the company will offer any way to help, as that would have to mean they are admitting to being at fault. I dunno if they'll do that, but it would be nice! Good luck with everything, Katie!


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## mellowbo

Katie,
When is Daisey's surgery? Does she have medication for pain in the meantime? Sweet little precious baby....
Carole


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## MopTop Havanese

Daisy's surgery is scheduled for tomorrow (Tues)~ 
She has been on antibiotics since her appt last week. She is showing more and more signs of the stones. She has started peeing in the house and seems very "down" and depressed. One on hand I can't wait for her surgery so she will start to feel better~~


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## mellowbo

This is one surgery I am glad to see coming soon so she will feel better!
Carole


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## mintchip

:grouphug:Get well soon Daisy!!! Good luck Katie:grouphug:


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## EstrellaVila

Feel better daisy, and Katie, it will be ok :hug:


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## mckennasedona

Poor Daisy. I hope her surgery goes well and she gets some much needed relief. Poor little girl. I feel for you too, Katie. I can't imagine my home becoming a canine surgical recovery center. I wish I lived closer so I could help you. Take care of yourself while you're taking care of the dogs and the puppies and the kids.


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## ama0722

Get well wishes being sent Daisy's way! Hugs to everyone but especially you Katie and puppy belly rubs 

Amanda


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## havanesebyha

Katie, I'm sure Daisy is in surgery now and pray that she does well. Hugs to both Daisy and you when she wakes up. Let us know how she is ~ :grouphug:


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## Leslie

Katie~ I just got caught up on this thread and I feel so badly for you and Daisy. I hope you can get to the bottom of what's causing this. "Speedy recovery!" wishes for Daisy from Tori and me.


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## MopTop Havanese

Thank you all so much for the well wishes for my sweet Daisy. Yes she is in surgery now. And I am a wreck. Trying to do what I can to keep busy. I have done the dishes, vacuumed, steam cleaned the carpets.....I am wrestless until I hear from the vet that she is ok~ I can't just sit around....find myself worrying too much....


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## mckennasedona

Katie, I'll be happy to give you my address.....you can feel free to steam clean my carpets and vacuum in order to keep busy! I didn't leave any dirty dishes this morning though..... :biggrin1:

Get well wishes headed Daisy's way....


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## MopTop Havanese

Just got the call from the vet. Daisy is waking up and surgery went well. They got 12 stones out! (Jester only had 4) OUCH! My poor baby. I go at 5 to pick her up....


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## Me&2Girls

Oh Katie - so sorry to hear that she had so many. Hopefully her recovery will be easy. Oh and by the way, you can spend the rest of the afternoon down here. I need to do my carpets too and with both of us working, we'll be done in plenty of time for you to pick up Daisy by 5! LOL


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## juliav

Katie,

I am so glad to hear that Daisy's surgery went well and she is recovering. But 12 stones, OMG, poor baby!!!!


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## maryam187

Poor Daisy. Hope she will heal up very soon and be her old happy self!


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## Laurief

Oh my goodness, that poor baby - I cannot believe that she had THAT many stones? Thankfully you were able to get them all out. Sending you guys prayers and hugs and kisses for a good night tonight while she heals!!


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## Lina

Ouch, 12 stones! I hope Daisy recovers soon!


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## ama0722

Great news that she will hopefully be home and on the road to recovery tonight!


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## Posh's Mom

Great news Katie.


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## EstrellaVila

That is wonderful news Katie! 

I can't believe the poor thing had 12 stones! That is crazy. I am sure she will feel so much better and will recover way fast for you.


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## Jane

Poor Daisy! She is a petite little girl - 12 stones is a lot. I am glad she made it through the surgery. It is just awful what has happened to her and Jester. I hope everyone will be healthy from here on in. :hug:


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## mellowbo

Great news! Now she is pain free! I sure hope you get to the bottom of what is causing this. Do you want me to take Heidi off your hands? haha I know how busy you are. That would be one less to take care of, lol.
hugs,
Carole


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## JASHavanese

Katie, we're sending hugs to you and the dogs. I hope you get some answers as to why this is happening. It sure is interesting that the two affected were eating the same food. 12 stones.....ouch!!


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## Cheryl

We always knew that women were tough--12 stones, Wow!!! 

I am glad the surgery is over and your baby is on her way to recovery!!


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## havanesebyha

Awhhh poor Daisy, that poor little baby ~ 12 stones is so many! Katie big hugs to Daisy from me and Kohana and big hugs to you too! I'm so glad you had the surgery and hope that is the end of it and the vet finds the resource as to why she and Jester had these stones. If it's not the food could it be your water? Heal quickly little Daisy :grouphug:


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## hartman studio

I'm so sorry to hear about your babies. Hopefully the worst is over and she'll have a very speedy recovery. The specialty dog food store I've started to go to also sells Candidae(spelling?). I mentioned the problems you were having as well as the other dogs that got stones after eating it. She said that the main difference between it and the other brands they carry (including Fromms, Timberwolf, Innova, Evo, Evangers, The Honest Kitchen, California Natural) was that it had 4 different proteins and possibly some dogs would have a more difficult time processing those 4 different protein sources. Don't know if it's true, but thought I'd pass along her theory. Jocelyn


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## mintchip

:grouphug:Hope Daisy is feeling better today:grouphug:


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## MopTop Havanese

It was a long night. Daisy was very shakey and whiney. She seems to have settled in a bit today. She is eating and resting lots~
I can't wait for my days of playing nurse to be over~ sometimes I think I am not cut out for this!


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## dotndani

Hugs to Daisy from Duncan.
Hope all is going well!!


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## Leslie

:hug: Katie :hug:


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## mellowbo

Awww, Katie. It has been so tough on you, both emotionally and physically. For me the thing that always works is that I tell myself that "this too shall end". The worst is over and Daisy will be a lot stronger tomorrow. Please give her light little tummy rubs for me and hugs to you!
Carole


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## juliav

Katie,

I am so sorry you are having such a rough time, and no wonder. It's not easy to see our little ones suffer (both human and furry). Sending healing vibes to Daisy and how about a glass of vino to help you relax a bit.  :grouphug:


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## Cheryl

Katie--I am a nurse--available for private duty just for you. Of coarse I am use to people patients, but I am flexiable.


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## Judy A

Katie, I'm just catching up on some threads....so sorry your babies had to endure the pain of stones and I pray their recovery is quick for their sake as well as your's. Healing thoughts coming your way.....


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## pjewel

Katie,

I missed the whole second half of this thread. I hope Daisy is on the mend and is feeling so much better. You have been through a rough time. I hope you take a little time to pamper yourself too. 

Healing thoughts headed your way, for all of you.


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## MopTop Havanese

Here are a few pics of my sweet girl, and a pic of her stones..so don't look if you get grossed out!


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## juliav

Awww, poor little darling, I hope she is recovering well. Boy, those stones look really awful, so big for such a small dog.


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## Leslie

Owie! Those had to hurt! I'm glad they're out and Daisy can get back to normal now. Tender belly rubs from me.


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## mintchip

Oh poor baby! Get well soon!


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## mckennasedona

Poor little sweetheart. Those had to be painful. I'm glad they are out and she's on the mend.


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## Sissygirl

Katie,

I am so sorry to hear about this - poor baby. Those are really big stones - wow. 
Sure hope she has a speedy recovery.

Hugs from Sissy and me.


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## EstrellaVila

Those things are huge!! So sad. I hope she is feeling better.


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## TobyBaby

My goodness she should feel so much better now. Poor girl.


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## good buddy

Oh poor thing, she looks worn out! I hope her recovery goes well, those are some huge stones! Geez, you've had a lot on your plate lately! Give yourself a hug from me.


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## irnfit

I just saw the pictures. The poor little thing. I'm hysterical because Kodi is scratching himself bald. I can't imagine how your poor baby felt with those stones.


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## pjewel

OMG, those stone were huge. Poor baby. She deserves a rest.


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## ama0722

Yikes, poor little thing, I hope she recovers soon!


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## Salsa's Mom

Oh my goodness! Hope Daisy is feeling better. Hugs from Salsa and me. :hug:


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## mintchip

How is Daisy doing today???


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## mellowbo

OMG, I just saw the stones. I'm so glad those are GONE!
Carole


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## CinnCinn

OMGoodness....I learned a lot reading this thread. How is Daisy doing? The stones looked especially large - did your vet think that was an unusually high number?


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## marjrc

Aww... look at her. Daisy looks so sweet. I hope she's pain-free and you are not tearing the hair out of your head with all that you have to do! Take care of yourself or you will burn out. ((hugs))


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## miko

Hope Daisy is feeling better! I am very surprised such a highly rated dog food would have caused the bladder stones. Is there anything else you can think of that may have contributed to the health issue? Have you heard any response from Canidae?


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## JASHavanese

Katie and Daisy, we're sending you both hugs. Wow those stones were large. Daisy may just be feeling better than you are now! It's tough when a dog we love isn't doing well. I was really stressed when my spoo got spayed and didn't do well with it. They're just so innocent and sweet and oh it hurts when we can't wave a wand and fix them. Hang in there Katie. :hug::hug::hug:


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## BeverlyA

Hope Daisy and Jester are feeling much better and that you're getting a chance to catch up on some rest.

Beverly


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## Missy

oh Katie!!! I just saw poor Daisy's stones from a while back. OUCH! Is she feeling better now? Are you still having to play nurse as much? 

kisses from me, Jasper and Cash to sweet Daisy!!!


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## MopTop Havanese

Update from today~
Urine rechecks were done and both Daisy and Jester still have crystals....I think the vet is stumped. Now here is the kicker. I have since learned of another Havanese in my area that was eating Canidae and has/had a bladder infection in the last two weeks. And let me add a little more good news to the pile....hubby and I were in Tahoe a couple weekends ago. I just had to get away just for one night. My parents stayed here with the kids/dogs. My sweet 10 yr old, who thought she was being so helpful....filled the dogs bowls to the rim with the Canidae that I had stored in the garage :jaw:
(I had kept it in case the reps from Canidae wanted it for testing). 
Oye Vey:brick:.....so we had some nasty poops for a few days, but no one seemed worse for the wear....until this weekend. I noticed Heidi was licking alot after she went to the bathroom. So I took her urine in to be tested today. And guess what. She has crystals too!! I am soooo beyond pissed off. I asked the vet today if she was convinced yet that it was the food. Her reply "I'm getting there".... I am just at a loss........... Both Daisy and Heidi are on yet another round of antibiotics. Jester will be getting another urine culture done next week.
I talked to the rep at Canidae who is taking no blame. "Our formula hasn't changed" he says. "I am so sorry for your unfortunate circumstances"...
Bite me.


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## Julie

Oh Katie---I'm so sorry:grouphug:

This just sucks....and swallows!(as my teenagers say)

I do hope and pray for this all to go away and you to catch a break!


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## Cheryl

katie--what a mess. I am sorry for all you have gone through. Toss the dog food and be outspoken against them. Are there Yahoo sights that you can state your case?


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## Posh's Mom

Katie I'm just catching up on this thread...poor dogs, and poor you. I have really spread the word about Canidae, and some people just roll their eyes at me. I know from first hand experience how much dog food really can affect our pups health and longevity. I am absolutely convinced that my border collie was poisoned by Nutro kibble. I have since learned sooo much about quality foods, and of course Canidae is rated highly so to not have them work with you is a real black mark. What have you switched your pups to? Maybe you've said somewhere in this thread. Anyway, hugs to you and the pups, take care. I'm glad you got a little bit of an escape.


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## Cheryl

One more thought. Where are they located? Can you file against them in small claims court?


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## mellowbo

Well s---- Katie. This is TERRIBLE!! This bag of food has to be examined somehow. This is just awful. Something is happening around your area if it's not the food. What else could it be considering the other dog. And now MY Heidi too!!! Can these new crystals be dissolved without surgery?? I just can't imagine how mad you must be given the fact that I'm furious!!!!!
Carole


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## Lina

Katie, that is so horrible! I can't even imagine how pissed off you are... I know I definitely would be. I hope all the dogs feel better soon!


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## Poornima

Katie, how terrible! I can imagine how angry and frustrated you must be. I hope that all the furbabies get better soon.


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## juliav

Awwww Katie,

How terrible, I can only imagine how upset (and rightfully so) you are. I hope the stones can be dissolved without the surgery. :grouphug:


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## havanesebyha

OMG Katie...You poor dear! Can't the vet do more to find out if it is the food or could it be the water? Can your vet write a letter to the dog food company and tell them that they are responsible and now a puppy has them too? If your vet doesn't know, what do you think about asking U.C. Davis? Pebble goes in to the vet tomorrow morning and I'll ask her vet if she knows anything. Big hugs to you!


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## MopTop Havanese

I actually asked the vet today about testing my water. And she said she really doesn't think it's the water, and testing really wasn't necessary, she isn't sure what exactly they would test for. It's the same water they have had their whole lives~~
I think what I am going to do is take Emmy (who hasn't had her urine tested yet) to a different vet and get a second opinion. I will blow a gasket if she has crystals too...
And I am seriously considering home cooking for them. Although I am not sure what a hassle that would be for 6 dogs. Right now they are all on Wellness.


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## havanesebyha

Oh gosh! Maybe I should have my girls checked especially Pebble as she was on the same food for 4 months. We are now on Wellness too. What do you do take a pee pad in with a fresh sample on it for them to test? Please don't say it's like people and pee in a cup........sorry, I truly feel bad for you Katie and am worried if it is the food I am up the same road. I'll let you know what our vet says tomorrow.


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## MopTop Havanese

Nope, you can't take in a pee pad. What I did this morning was take a ziplock bag, and stuck two toothpicks in the zipper part to hold it open. Then I taped the outside of the bag to a long stick. Put the dog on a leash and took her out to go potty (first moring pee). When she squatted to pee, I stuck the bag under her to catch the urine. Then poured the urine into a fresh bag and took it straight to the vet. 
What we do for our dogs, huh!
But I will hope that since your dogs aren't showing any symtoms, that they are ok~


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## havanesebyha

Katie you are such a good mommy! Very good way of doing it Katie, that is really a tough obsticle to go through. Thank you for the tip and I will remember it if I need to. Does Heidi show any symptoms or how do you know? Maybe you should get dog insurance on Emmy before taking in a sample - just a thought.


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## MopTop Havanese

The only symptom Heidi had was constantly licking her vulva. I honestly thought she was going into heat, but she isn't swollen or bleeding.
And trust me I have looked into the insurance. But I believe you have to wait 30 days for illnesses.... and I am afraid if she has crystals too that they would turn into stones if I waited that long.


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## havanesebyha

Dang...Pebble has had the runs all night and not sure what her problem is and now just found some liquid with pink tinge in it on her pee pad! Is that one of the signs???


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## havanesebyha

Check out Petplan ...that is what I got for my girls and went into effect the next day. It's not for wellness care ...but good for the expensive stuff if there is not a history.


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## Me&2Girls

Oh Katie - I am just so sorry to hear that you are still having problems with these dang crystals. Has the vet said what it could be other than the food? Any chance that you've got samples from 12 weeks ago? Or has that food been long gone? Sending hugs to the entire gang and especially you.


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## MopTop Havanese

Libby~
Sorry to hear about Pebbles icky poop....I hope it's nothing! I never had the runs with my guys in relation to the crystals.
Lisa~
I still have the food, hoping it will come in useful someday. The vet is stumped as to what it could be. At first she was saying it wasn't the food because Jester and Daisy both had different types of stones (one struvite, one oxite). But I think she is getting more and more convinced now that their are more cases. (Heidi now having crystals, and another dog I know having bladder infections on the same food, plus she has done surgery on two other dogs for bladder stones who were eating the same food).
*sigh*
If it's not the food I have no idea what it could be. My dogs eat out of metal bowls. They are getting the same water they have always had. I haven't been giving them new treats or suppliments. I scoop poop daily and bleach the dog runs a few times a week. I wash their dog beds and toys on a regular basis. My house is clean. What else could it be?


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## mckennasedona

Kaite, I'm so sorry to hear that Heidi may have crystals. I am angry right along with you that Canidae refuses to even consider the possibility that it could be their food.
Libby, I hope Pebble is okay.


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## MopTop Havanese

Susan, Heidi _does_ have crystals. And it's the crystals, if left untreated, that turn to bladder stones. She is on a special antibiotic that is supposed to lower the ph of her urine and hopefully dissolve the crystals~ keep your fingers crossed!


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## mckennasedona

Poor Heidi. I was confusing crystals with stones. I cannot imagine what you are going through. Sending virtual hugs to all of you though.


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## havanesebyha

Katie, we are back from the vet and I told her all about your dogs. She said that is an interesting thought about the food and she thinks that is highly unlikely but it is very suspecious that they all showed up with stones within a months time. She thought it was good I took Pebble off the Candide food just in case. She said some breeds are more prone to stones and Bichon Frises have a very high rate. Off the top of her head she is thinking it is genetics, but then she even said that is strange so close together and to also watch your water sources. 

As for Pebble her diarrahi (sp?) was bad this morning. She did not get her rabies shot and is put on medicine instead ~ also I am to feed her a bland diet of rice and cottage cheese and bring her back if its not better in the next couple of days. Well, she won't be going to Vallejo with us this weekend as I don't want her picking up anything else! 

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Heidi and hope the medicine works!! 

Hugs to you all :grouphug:


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## ama0722

Yikes Katie, I came back to this thread predicting to see the nursing stations taken down. How scary is that and it could happen to anyone. I was told Canidae was a pretty good food!


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## havanesebyha

Katie, maybe you should get a second opinion from a vet over at UC Davis. It really maybe worth the extra time, and money to get to the bottom of this in a hurry. Can your vet put you in touch with a vet there or consult with them about Crystals and stones and have them research it? I would think this would be an interesting puzzle for them to figure out and they are so good over there.


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## maryam187

Yikes, Katie, this sucks a$$, can't believe this is happening to you and your dogs.


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## Salsa's Mom

Omg Katie! I hope you get to the bottom of this soon! :hug:


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## Havtahava

Oh Libby - that's a good idea! Seeing if you can get into UC Davis might be a faster way to resolve all of this.

I mentioned this in the other topic about crystals, but if the dogs are getting varying types of crystals (one caused by high pH and one caused by low pH), it does sound more likely that it is being caused by bacterial or viral sources than food sources. At least, that is what my untrained mind thinks. I hope you can find the cause.


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## MaddiesMom

Wow, Katie. I'm *so* sorry to hear about your dogs! Yes, it might well be worth a trip to UC Davis for a consult. It sure would be alot cheaper than more surgeries.

When I had Panda, her liver ultrasound found a couple of small stones in her bladder. We never did anything about it, since she wouldn't have been able to withstand anesthesia, and her only symptom was one bladder infection. When that happened, I researched info on the different types of bladder stones. Some are from high ph, others are from low. Also, it seems important to know what kind of bacteria are in the urine culture.

When I was researching info on Panda, here is the best information I found on each of the types of bladder stones.

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_canine_struvite_bladder_stones.html

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_canine_oxalate_bladder_stones.html


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## EstrellaVila

Oh Katie. I am so so so so sorry this is happening. I have no medical training or knowledge about this, but I do know that it is very very odd that it was so close together and there are other dogs who were on the same food who got bladder infections. Too much of a coincidence. Maybe the bacteria/virus that Kimberly talked about is in the food? I dunno. I third the motion to get UC Davis to help out. I think it is something they would be interested in since it is so strange. I am praying for you and I give you millions of hugs. If there is anything I can do let me know!


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## MopTop Havanese

I had the Y puppies at the vet today for their BAER testing (they all passed, yay!) and I spoke to the vet for quite awhile about Jester, Daisy and Heidi. (at this time I _think_ Heidi is in heat because she is having a bloody discharge, she is swollen like a heat and not acting at all sick. But the blood is bright read and my gut tells me it may be stones....the vet said to keep an eye on it for a week, and if she is still having bright red to bring her in for an ultrasound to check for stones. Just put me in the looney bin if she has stones.......)
Anyway, the vet said she has been doing research on my case, and that she was WRONG about the type of stones that Daisy had. She said Daisy's stones had more of a "spiky" look to them than Jesters did, his were smooth. (she labeled Daisy's stones oxalate and Jesters struvite at the time of thier surgeries which is why at first she didn't think it was the food, but now with Heidi having crystals too she is getting suspicious), but when she did research she actually found pictures of struvite stones that looked spiky just like Daisy's. PLUS with the fact that Daisy had a high ph and struvite crystals at her last urinalysis, that it would be nearly impossible for Daisy's stones to be oxalate like she first suspected.
SOOOOO, she has been in contact with the rep from Royal Cainin and got a bag of Urinary SO 14 prescription food to put them on. We are going to do urine rechecks in a couple months to see if the crystals have disappeared. The vet said I am her "test case" with the food, and I told her I would be happy to be her guinea pig if we can get to the bottom of what's causing the crystals in the first place.
Cross you fingers that the food helps and we will be crystal free!!:frusty:
*edited to add that the vet did say she would be HOT on the phone to canidae if Heidi ends up with stones....


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## Me&2Girls

Oh man, Katie - what a bummer. Although it is good that the vet is researching your case still and thinks they have the same kind of stones. Sure hope Heidi is just going into heat and not getting crystals too.


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## mintchip

Good luck Katie!! Sending you good health vibes!


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## Poornima

Good luck Katie! I do hope that Heidi is just in heat and she and you are spared with more of this. I was at a pet store this morning and I thought of you and Jester when I saw a guy buying a huge bag of canidae. I hope that if it is Canidae reated, the pet owners would be alerted soon to prevent anymore furbabies from getting sick.


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## mckennasedona

Katie, 
Sending healthy thoughts your way. I hope the food does the trick and takes care of the crystals and I hope Heidi is simply in heat. Is Jester going nuts around her? I'd think he'd be a big clue as to whether she's in heat or not.
Good luck. It's great to hear that your vet is researching on her own for you and willing to call Canidae if the need arises.


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## Leslie

Katie~ I sure hope this new food is the answer for your guys. I, too, hope Heidi is just in heat.

Yay for the puppies' good news! With all you're dealing w/you needed some good news.


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## Kathy

Katie,
Were the stones ever sent to UC Davis for analysis? I would think knowing for sure what type they are will save you a lot of time and money.


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## MopTop Havanese

Kathy~ I didn't get Jesters stones (I have no idea why, but now it makes me mad that they weren't saved). I do have Daisy's stones and Jean was talking about sending them in to be analyzed~


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## Posh's Mom

Katie, thinking of you! Love the new avatar.


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## Missy

Awww Katie! that is freaky. It sounds like you have a terrific vet. I really hope Heidi does not have stones too. But isn't she too young to be in heat? This may be in here earlier...but had you recently switched to canadae? what did you feed before that? 

Is that Heidi in your avatar? my has she grown up? Adorable.


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## EstrellaVila

Katie this is so crazy. I am so glad the vet is opening up her eyes on this one. I sincerely hope Heidi is just having her heat and not stones... Good luck!! I hope to see you guys soon, and I miss you!


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## maryam187

Katie, I'm glad your Vet decided to hop on your boat and get to the bottom of these stones.


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## ama0722

Oh Katie, that is horrible. I will cross my fingers that Heidi is in heat for you. I can't imagine having to deal with all of them possibly having stones...

Amanda


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## mellowbo

jimminey crickets Katie. That's just too much! I'm praying our Heidi is just in heat and that you are all crystalled out! 
Speaking of Heidi in heat.....are you breeding my next puppy this season?
Carole


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## isshinryu_mom

Sending good healthy vibes for your pups.... this must be so frustrating!


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## Julie

I'm so sad to read that Heidi too may have crystals/stones. I'd be mad as he_ _ and hopefully you can get to the bottom of this soon.I'm so happy to read the vet is now giving you more credibilty with the food idea----:hug: Kudos to you for hanging in there!

Great news on the pups!


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## Cheryl

Hugs to katie. I hope Heidi turnsout to be OK, but I am glad you have your vet being so supportive.


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## havanesebyha

Katie, interesting your vet is picking Royal Canine because that is what my vet said was a better food than Wellness and I'm switching all three over slowly to Royal Canine. My vet said they use it on studies with a large group of dogs that have been on it all their lives and this way they know all the goods and bads and whe said it is good food. Best to Heidi and that she is in heat!


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## JanB

Katie, I am so sorry to see that you are stlll having issues. I hope you get some answers soon and your poor dogs get some relief! Your wonderful vet is a jewel!


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## MopTop Havanese

Heidi is 9 months old now (crazy, I know!) so she is def old enough to have her first heat. Her momma had her first heat at 6 months old~
And no, we won't be having any more puppies until next year. I like giving my girls a little break in between litters...I think that's only fair to them and their little bodies~ I don't think it's right to have them pump out puppies at each heat! Plus Emmy is the only girl I have now that is even able to have puppies. (and I did breed her two times in a row, mainly because Heidi was a singleton and not much stress on Emmy, but she deserves a break)~ 
So you will have to wait until next year to see more puppy pictures from MopTop!


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## juliav

Katie,

I am so sorry your are going through all this trouble and hope that little Heidi is just in heat. :hug:


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## Jane

Katie, I am sorry you are still going through this. I am glad your vet is continuing to do more research into what is going on. Keep us posted and I hope you get some definitive answers soon. :hug:


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## Missy

havanesebyha said:


> Katie, interesting your vet is picking Royal Canine because that is what my vet said was a better food than Wellness and I'm switching all three over slowly to Royal Canine. My vet said they use it on studies with a large group of dogs that have been on it all their lives and this way they know all the goods and bads and whe said it is good food. Best to Heidi and that she is in heat!


Libby, I love this little tid bit of information. Royal Canin is the only kibble I can get my boys to consistently eat. But I am always trying others as a lot of people poo poo it for it's grain and corn content. Was your vet talking about the RC Vet Diets or all RC?

Katie, I can not believe Heidi is 9 months old.


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## havanesebyha

Missy said:


> Libby, I love this little tid bit of information. Royal Canin is the only kibble I can get my boys to consistently eat. But I am always trying others as a lot of people poo poo it for it's grain and corn content. Was your vet talking about the RC Vet Diets or all RC?
> 
> Katie, I can not believe Heidi is 9 months old.


My vet said all the different RC kibble varieties ~ she feeds it to her dogs and says that is the only food she really trusts. I have a bag of mediallian raw chicken diet and she warned me and said a puppy just died of being on a raw diet. I have never opened the bag ~ maybe I can find my receipt and return it because I sure as heck am not going to use it after hearing about the puppy!!!

The vet also told me Wellness is pushed like mad for having such great healthy foods in it and she said that is overrated and it has not been tested on a study to see how it does. So, I'm mixing it with the RC and will use it up, but let me tell you all three girls LOVE the RC! They don't get straight kibble anyway - they have a special (my breeders special) food mixture they get and really love it. :biggrin1: Even picky Kohana :whoo:


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## Leslie

Tori's vet recommends RC but, she won't touch it...


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## mintchip

Leslie said:


> Tori's vet recommends RC but, she won't touch it...


Leslie Oliver ate it as a puppy but then decided the same thing about a year ago :biggrin1:


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang

Katie,

I can't believe what you and your poor dogs have been going through the past month! I'm glad they're at least feeling a little better and I hope Heidi's only in heat and not suffering crystals or stones.

I'm curious about the Canidae theory. We've been feeding 8 dogs Canidae All Life Stages for almost two years now and none of them have suffered any health problems as a result. In fact, they're doing really well on the food. These are all large breeds, and no health issues from the kibble.

Pepper has been fed Solid Gold Just A Wee Bit (I think that's the name) since we got him. I like the bison-protein and the smaller kibble size. He's doing well on this food.

It would be very interesting to know if your dogs' stones turn out to be food-related and, if so, then if the Canidae-stone problem turns out to be small breeds in particular. 

I've got my fingers crossed that Jester & Daisy are back to normal really soon, and that you get your house back, too!


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