# Canine antidepressants?



## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Does anyone have any experience using prozac or other such drugs with any of their animals? I am sure that none of your Havs had, but any of your other dogs? I am curious to hear your experiences. After hijacking the family relationships thread, I thought I would just ask it out right. 

Jasper is doing better with cars and the mail since we have taught him to heel... But my boy just lies around all day and night... he refuses to play(and Cash tries very hard but very gently to get him to play-- and so do we) we already walk him 3-4 times a day--- and he is even hiding now when we pull out the leash (the word WALK used to be the only thing that made him act like the 2.5 year old dog that he is) I know from myself, how an SSRI really let me let go of a lot of my frivolous worry (although you may read this and think otherwise...LOL) and I'm a lot happier and calmer. But I am also afraid to burden Jas with a drug and all the possible side effects... I am just looking for information, good and bad. and especially any first hand experiences you have. please know I am not considering this lightly, and do not know if I will even go there...just looking for info... 

Has anyone used St John's Wort with animals?


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## KristinFusco (Jun 5, 2007)

Hi Missy!

I think that my brother-in-law's puggle was put on Paxil by his veterinarian as a last resort due to his anxiety/depression. I am not sure as to the dosage used. This was very recent so I haven't had a chance to observe the results yet.

Hugs to you and Jasper!


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I didn't know this was even something a vet considered. I just figured it was each dog's personality. I'll be following this thread out of curiousity.


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## KristinFusco (Jun 5, 2007)

I just browsed the internet really quickly and found this information at PetPlace.com:

Paroxetine (Paxil®):

Behavioral disorders in dogs and cats are common reasons for veterinary visits. Behavioral problems are also a frequent reason for euthanasia of pets, especially when unacceptable or dangerous animal behavior is involved. 

Recently, veterinarians have begun placing increasing emphasis on animal training and behavior modification, and animal behavior specialists have adopted drugs used to modify human moods and behavior for animal use. Paroxetine is one of these drugs.

This drug increases serotonin levels in the brain. Serotonin is a chemical that facilitates transmission of "messages" between brain cells. Its effects are very similar to those of another serotonin enhancing drug, Prozac® (fluoxetine).

Paroxetine is a prescription drug and can only be obtained from a veterinarian or by prescription from a veterinarian.


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## Poornima (Jun 29, 2007)

Missy, I do hope you get answers. I too was not aware of such treatment for pets. Hugs and good luck to you and Jasper.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Hi Missy,

My hubby's sister has a german shephard that was fear-aggressive. He even bit an adult friend of theirs in the rear-end, after he seemed to be fine. They live in a secluded place, on the top of a mountain and don't have kids and are committed to keeping this dog even though they are not thrilled with how things have turned out. Anyway, he was on doggie-Prozac for awhile (a year?) and also a homecooked diet. They said it helped some, especially getting him through the exuberant puppy stage. He is about 5 years old now, I think, and I think he is not on the prozac regularly anymore. I have actually never touched this dog - they always put him in his crate in another room when we come to visit because we have kids.


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

Missy, I know this is an issue you've troubled over for a long time. I've not had any personal experience with an anti-depressant for a pet but if it was me - I'd try it. You can always stop if it doesn't help.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Thanks for not laughing at me. Jane, your story makes me happy that I don't have to crate jasper when people come over (actually it is the only time he comes alive-- he loves visitors) 

does this look like a scam? it's primarily st john's wort and cammomile. 

ttp://www.nativeremedies.com/petalive/griefandpiningformula-support-happy-dogs-cats.html


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## KristinFusco (Jun 5, 2007)

Missy,

I would hope that no one would ever laugh at you over something like this! You just want what is best for Jasper and you are investigating all of the options. That's good parenting!  I just skimmed an article that said that St. John's Wort can be used to treat anxiety in dogs with some success, but that it shouldn't be combined with certain other medications (namely antidepressants and/or certain sedatives). I would check with your vet before starting any meds, homeopathic or otherwise, for safety and to determine the correct dosing, but I am sure you are going to do that anyway :biggrin1:. 

It's funny, before I switched fields I made drugs for big pharma as a chemical engineer, but despite that I usually recommend to people to start out with the homeopathic or most mild treatment possible, because it is easier to escalate dosing or drugs if need be than to become dependent on the stronger meds/doses that may not be necessary. Good luck and please let us know what you decide!


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## Poornima (Jun 29, 2007)

Missy, I think you are being a wonderful mom to Japser and I really hope that your efforts would get help him needed treatment. 

I believe in homeopathy and if you can find a good doctor, it can work in a very short time. I have a cousin (overseas) who is a professor of homeopathy and has her own successful practice and I consult her when needed for myself as well as Benji and Lizzie.

I have heard that in So Cal there are some really good vets who give homeopathic medicines. I really hope you find someone in your area.


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## KristinFusco (Jun 5, 2007)

Missy,

I just wanted to add that I take my boys to a homeopathic veterinary practice (they try to minimize vaccination/medication and supplement the immune system of the pets with more natural remedies). When I was bringing Carlito home from CA and looking for a vet for him, Kimberly wrote to the Delaware Valley Havanese Club and they gave her and I the recommendation for this particular practice. Point being , if your vet won't prescribe or recommend homeopathics and you want to try that route, maybe your local Havanese club could point you in the direction of a veterinary practice that will. Just a thought


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Missy said:


> Does anyone have any experience using prozac or other such drugs with any of their animals? I am sure that none of your Havs had, but any of your other dogs? I am curious to hear your experiences.


Yes, and I'd use it again in a heartbeat if needed. Years ago my Pom's personality changed when she got older. The vet said to try prozac, she was on it a couple of months then went off and I had my girl back.
He gave me a rx for it that we had to get at a pharmacy and it read Sandy K9 Smith. That cracked me up seeing that bottle.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

wow this is all great. Kristin thanks for that info about looking for a homepathic vet. 

Jan, how did your poms personality change? and-- she was only on prozac for a few months but was still improved once she went off? Were there any side effects? I have only seen articles about big dogs using it-- so was happy to hear you used it on a pom. 

I like the idea of starting with st john's wort-- so I will take that printout to the vet tomorrow--we are having his anal glands expressed-- I think I have noticed he is brighter for a while after having them expressed...(LOL maybe my poor boy just feels constipated all the time.) so I am trying to have them expressed on a regular basis about every 2-3 months.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Missy said:


> Jan, how did your poms personality change? and-- she was only on prozac for a few months but was still improved once she went off? Were there any side effects?


Oh my, that's so many years ago that it's hard to remember. I do remember she turned into a little bugger and just wasn't herself. The vet warned me that she might take it for a couple of months and be able to go off of it or once she started taking it that she might need to stay on it. I'm an optimist at heart and figured it was worth a try and we took her off of it after a couple of months to see if she still needed it. She was fine and stayed the sweet girl I knew before she needed the prozac. I remember she refused to eat off of a plate on the floor. One time when she was doing that, she moved the plate and it made a big noise when it clunked on the floor and that was it for plates or dog dishes. I'll have to ask hubby in the morning if he remembers more about why she went on it. No, there were no side effects at all


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## RikiDaisyDixie (Apr 15, 2008)

*have you tried Rescue Remedy*

I used this when we would go to shows and such. Riki would get too hyper. It seemed to work.


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## RikiDaisyDixie (Apr 15, 2008)

*A Pawfect World*

http://www.pawfectworld.com/about.html

Give these folks a call. They are experts in alternative meds for dogs. They also know havanese.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

Missy-good luck to you! I think you're a responsible mommy who just wants a happy, healthy dog! Medicines were made to help as long as they're used properly so I think it's great that you're doing so much research on your own before even asking the vet.
**Personally I'd like to have a Pez dispenser full of the things for myself but my doc wouldn't go for it!


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## mom23girls (Nov 26, 2007)

Hi 
Missy...I haven't been on here in a while, but just stopped in quick & your post caught my eye. Iwas talking to the vet just the other day about Amy's "issues" & she recomended an anti-depressant for her to help with her anxiety. I haven't decided yet, but I'm leaning toward it b/c she claims it may help with her accidents. She thinks it's brought on by nerves. I'm not sure what she's nervous abut, but she definitely has some anxiety issues. Good luck.............-jen


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

Haven't they found that st. john's wort isn't really effective for depression in humans? If so, wouldn't the same probablyl apply in dogs?


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Linda- I think rescue remedy is more a downer! <BG> That is what I give to crazy Isabelle when i need her to calm down with thunderstorms. The first time rather than giving her 3 drops, I gave her 3 droplets full and she wouldn't get out of her dog bag at the dog trial! Yeah, I overdosed her- she was fine but it showed me it really does calm her down!

Missy- I would also suggest if you can find a homeopathic vet. I have a friend with a rescue sheltie who swears by taking her dog to a chiropractor. Might be another thing to look into.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Missy, there was an episode of The Dog Whisperer where Cesar used an acupuncturist to help this dog feel better about himself. He really relaxed a lot! Perhaps there is something like that around you? Kind of like what Amanda said about a chiropractor.

Also, please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Jasper's problem that he is TOO mellow and doesn't really do much around the house? I'm not sure how putting him on Rescue Remedy, which will make him even more mellow, help. Prozac, on the other hand, could very well do the trick, though.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Lina, you are right Jasper just mopes and retreats and runs from Cash when he is invited to play...but then looks longingly at Cash's when he is playing. Every now and then I see a glimmer of a happy dog, but it is getting less and less. The most energy he expends is to go red zone at the mail man (which we try to discourage and then he sulks some more) But, I was sort of joking when I said he seems to come alive and be more social for a while after we have his anal glands expressed by the vet (the groomer does not offer up the same results.)But, we just had this done today and tonight he and Cash had a romp in the yard and he is hanging out with us instead of hiding in a corner. I was told by the vet a few visits ago that his glands are positioned low and therefore not expressed naturally very well. So, while I research natural remedies and anti-depressants, I am also going to mark the calendar, and see how long he stays perky.. and try to document if there is a real correlation between his moods and expressing. I mean maybe it feels like hemroids. He is a sensitive guy and if it makes him feel off kilter it could be the culprit. 

I would say he sensed my mood about my mom, except he has done this since he was a wee pup. 

have I mentioned lately how much I love this forum...


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Missy, about 10 years ago we had a lab that we used to give "happy pills"' lol. I think they were something like valium to help calm him down and relieve his anxiety. He used to pace at night and always want to eat. Naturally, this wouldn't be appropriate for Jasper, but I'm just mentioning it because it worked for Bo and maybe the prozac would work for Jasper. I don't think it would hurt to give it a try. Good luck.
Carole


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## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

I actually tried to do a search on antidepressants in dogs and although I found several sights, none were what I would consider reputable and none showed a real research study. It was all anecdotal. That being said, I would possibly consider their use if I felt desperate. In people antidepressants work best with some sort of talk therapy. Although dogs do not really "talk," (I can hear the arguments now), I would hope that some one on one time would be included.


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## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

Missy, I don't have any experience with this, but I wanted to second what everyone was saying that I would be up for trying it. I hope Jasper is feeling better soon.


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

Hi Missy,

I have used an anti-depressant with Cooper while he was in a phase of compulsive licking and it did help that situation. Unfortunately I am at the hospital with my mom and can't remember the name and dose. I will PM you with the info later.

I personally would not give him St. John's Wort unless you got it from a vet/specialist.

Beverly


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Missy, I know you've been concerned for such a long time and having experience with anti-depressants in humans, I think you're probably more aware of the signs that indicate something might help. Personally, I'm a big believer in drugs that have millions and millions of dollars in research behind them (yes, I know, it's because they can make so much money on them) BUT a good vet will have clinical experience with various drugs and their effects. I think that you are already doing the canine version of talk therapy - extra walks, a special friend, adapting to various quirks. I personally would call around and find a vet with experience. These drugs aren't bad - we just want to avoid it if we can. If it makes your guy happier, wonderful. If you don't notice a big change, no damage done. You'll just taper him off them and accept him for who he is. 

If you can find a homeopathic option - fabulous. But please, go to a reputable specialist. There are so many, like vets, who really don't know what they are doing.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Guys, thanks for all the advice and support. I am going to check into it. mean while, maybe a change of scenery will brighten him up-- it sure will brighten us humans up... off tomorrow to Northfork LI for a week at a beach house and sampling all the local wines.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Missy, have a great relaxing time!!
Carole


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

*vacation or drugs?*

As I mentioned in other posts- Jasper sprained his leg getting out of the car on the ferry to LI. We found a local vet who x-rayed him as much as he could do without putting him out.. there was no break so he gave him pain meds and anti-inflamitories. Jas stopped limping after 2 days but stayed on the meds for the week. After he stopped limping, a few days later he started to act more engaged..(even chased Cash around the beach on our last day--just not jumping) and is still more engaged after 3 days home. Could my boy just be in pain? or ache? maybe he has doggy fibromyalgia. Coincidentally, I just read an article today in this months Bark Magazine talked about low level pain being the root of some personality or even behavioral problems. Another thing to speak to the vet about at my next visit.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Yes Missy, I think you may have the answer there. I'll bet he is in some low level pain!
Carole


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## LuvCicero (Mar 31, 2008)

Missy, could Jas have the beginning of arthritis? My Pom changed -- layed around and seemed depressed and the vet can give you meds that will help with the aches and pains. I think it is something you need to ask about. Poor Jas needs some help in feeling better and RLH.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

My mom had a dog (retriever) that they put on Prozac for severe anxiety, she said it made a world of difference and she's kicking herself for not doing it sooner, and being afraid of it, so I know she had a positive experience with it, and she has been a dog person for YEARS, this was the first time she'd done anything like that, so I assume it must've been pretty bad, the anxiety attacks.

But, it could also be a pain syndrome? Even then, a lot of doctors use AD's to treat pain syndromes too! lol Especially fibro or other chronic pain conditions, because chronic pain can cause any human to be depressed, and apparently, the serotonin helps the pain?

How is he doing now on the St John's Wort?

Kara


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## trueblue (Jan 22, 2008)

Missy, my best friend just went through several sessions with an animal psychologist/behavioralist for her Yorkie. He didn't have Jasper's problem, but he was becoming more obsessive and aggressive. He was put on some type of meds to begin his training, but I don't know exactly what they were. Apparently, this guy was recommended by the vet, and my friend LOVED him...he really worked wonders with her dog. Maybe that would be an option for you?? I didn't even know that profession existed until my friend used one...


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Oh Missy, I sure hope it does the trick. I think pain plays such a roll in some dog's behavior. I know that when one of my guys got arthritis, life was so sad for him until I got him on pain meds. He was a happy new dog again and it made his last year so much more comfortable. Good luck!


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

I think you all are onto something - Jas may not be feeling good - maybe he is experiencing some underlying pain?

I've noticed Lincoln has perked up since I switched foods - I am suspecting he had a food sensitivity that was making him feel not 100%. He hides under the bed less and is more interactive now.

I hope Jas's leg feels better soon! :hug: to you, Missy!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I am going to make in an appointment to discuss all this with my vet. Kara, I haven't tried the the st john's wort yet- because I saw somewhere it was poisonous to dogs!!! so I wanted to discuss it too with the vet. You know I am a little afraid to appear a hypochondriac to my vet... You want them to take you seriously when something is wrong. So I am trying to time the visit well, although, maybe now to double check the sprain from on vacation would be a good timing.

I did just go out and get sea pet omega 3-- it is supposed to be a pharmaceutical grade fish oil and could help with aches and pains. I also got ark naturals sea mobility chondroitin and glucosomine and msm treats. That is a great price on the sea mobility-- I paid double at the pet store.

http://www.carealotpets.com/item-detail/?ItemID=000000000006598

http://www.vitacost.com/ArkNaturals...ky&s_kwcid=TC-2271-117693721511-S-15173121011

Thanks gals for understanding!

I just wanted to add that I just made an appointment to discuss all this with Dr. Rogers tomorrow. She is my favorite vet- I did use the excuse of wanting my vet to check the leg...


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

*here we go...*

Jasper and I visited our wonderful dr. rogers today. She checked out his leg and lo and behold his other leg is now tight and swollen because he has been favoring his left leg. But all in all he is OK She was very interested that he came out of his shell on the anti-inflamitory-- but cautioned starting him on such a young age, because it could cause stomach, liver and heart problems. So she approved the fish oil and the sea mobility to help support him. She agreed that he was an extra sensitive dog and thought the prozac was worth a try. She didn't like the idea of the st. John's Wort she said she has seen no results in mood--But interestingly she gives it to all her surgery patients as it has a very good healing effect on deep muscles and tissue..

So leave it to one of my dogs to get me through the doors of a Wal-Mart. :frusty: I hate what they have done to small business. But for a $4 prescription for Jasper as opposed to $30 at CVS it was worth the trip. And I was really surprised that while i was waiting for the script, things I normally buy seem to be quite a bit cheaper there. Unfortunately very few of my own scripts are on their 4 dollar list-- but if you have a bunch of prescriptions it's worth checking out their list- it could save you a lot of $$$

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/catalog.gsp?cat=546834

I'll keep you posted on Jasper, we start it tonight.


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## LuvCicero (Mar 31, 2008)

Missy, I sure hope Jas gets better soon. It may be some pain and some depression both that is bothering him. I called a friend that I thought I remembered putting her dog on Prozac -- and she said he was a different dog after a week and a half and she loves the change. I can tell you that Prozac made the world of difference in Ronnie after his heart surgery. If I had to I would go to work to pay for the stuff for him myself.  His doctor said in his opinion it should be in every salt shaker in America with the stress everyone has to deal with these days. It may take a couple of weeks on Jas, but I do hope you will see a good change. Also, hope his legs get healed so he will feel better.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Oh dear, Jasper was so, so, so very mellow last night after I gave him his prozac... It actually scared me a bit. He was all limp when I picked him up (this dog never goes limp) I hope mommy can give it the time it needs to work... Maybe I should give it to him right before bed instead of dinner time...But I wanted to be able to observe him, just in case there was a bad reaction to it. 

Dale, not sure about for everyone but they have really helped people in my family. It's funny, but I fought the advice to use them for years, and once I did I will never go back, they haven't really changed my personality, they just took away the constant worry and have allowed me to let things go... I think I am nicer person, and I am able to work through pressures at work now much better.


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Missy, I'm thinking that Jasper was probably so relieved not to be in pain or discomfort that the poor guy finally was able to relax. I think giving meds with food is always the better option - just on the off chance that it causes gastric distress.

And yes, anti-depressants can be lifesavers. What's important is to continually work with your doctor to find the RIGHT one for you - there are so many great meds available that if you're willing to do some trial and error, and wait for them to work (some can take up to 5 weeks to get the full effect), life can be SO different.

And if I can make a pitch for the right doctor - it's well worth it to use a psychiatrist for depression/anxiety meds. Or a psychologist who has a consulting psychiatrist they use. Many drugs are "popular" but the psychiatrist has the clinical experience of knowing how each is affecting their many patients. You can go to whomever you feel you have the best rapport for talk therapy, but I truly believe that it's best to leave the precriptions to the experts.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Lisa, I agree with you totally about going to someone who really knows these drugs. They are not to be taken lightly. And I think some dr's prescribe them all too easily. I was lucky that the one that worked best for the rest of my family seemed to do the trick for me as well, so there was no trial and error.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

*couldn't do it!*

I couldn't continue with the prozac with Jasper. It made him one step up from catatonic. He literally found a corner and squished himself as far against the wall as he could and would just lay there. He wouldn't even eat steak. He also seemed more sensitive not less. The little over a week he was on them he really seemed as if he had just given up on life, it made his past moods seem like just being a mellow dog. So a few days ago I just stopped, I know people would say I didn't give them a chance, but they didn't see Jasper. So no more worrying about my boy. He is a sensitive guy... and I am just going to deal with it. I do will what I can to give him more confidence and let him have his moods when they happen. Today he is back to his normal self. His eyes are bright again and he even humped Cash...LOL


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Hey Missy, you gave it a shot. If they really zoned him out that much, I'd have given up too. Have you thought about physical therapy? It may be just the ticket for him - some swimming or there are some really cool exercises you can do to help him out. I've seen some great videos available. He really must be feeling better if he humped Cash. LOL


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Missy, I'm sorry the Prozac didn't work for Jasper but I'm glad you gave it a try. Somewhere in this thread I think someone mentioned food. I have to say that since I started giving the furkidlets just Evo small bites kibble they both seem to have more energy. Especially Lulu. Vinny always was full of the dickens but Lulu was quieter. Now she even steps livelier. 
I know how hard it is to get your babies to eat but it's just a thought.
I'm so glad to hear that Jasper is trying to hump Cash!!! You go Jasper!!
Carole


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Missy, I'm glad to hear Jasper is humping Cash! Well, at least you gave it a try so now you don't have to wonder about that option anymore.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

thanks gals. Where else could everyone cheer and know exactly how I felt about Jasper humping Cash? Jas is just so special and almost human he really drives me to find solutions. 

You know Carole, the past few days I have been putting a plate of RC kibble next to his medallions and he has been eating that too and does seem to have more energy. I would love to just put kibble down and free feed, but Cash would eat it all and get even pudgier. If it were up to Jasper he would eat at 3 pm and 10pm so the free feeding would be great for him, but not sure what I would do about Cash's weight problem (not to mention the fact that when Cash eats kibble, he goes back to the nasty tootsie roll habit) 

jeesh it is always something, so glad I didn't have kids, I would be a wreck.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

*results!!!?!!!?*

I just had to report that we seem to have had a mood breakthrough with Jasper. He is so much brighter and engaged and actually wrestling with Cash and not running away...he even has wanted to sleep in our bed.

Now, it's only been a week, but he has been off of the prozac for a week and a half and had only been on it for a week (see above how he was almost catatonic on it) ... at first I thought it might be the prozac starting to work or the dose was too much for him and after a few days of being off it was at a better level for him.

But I really think it may be the other things we have been doing...the sea mobility, the fish oil and me re-teaching him to play by spending some one on one time with him with a sock on my hand filled with treats (we wrestle and play tug o war for the treats) ... I had started doing all of this about a month ago. And i think perhaps the anti-inflammatory properties of the fish oil and sea mobility, which has sea cucumber, glucosomine, chondroitin and msm in it are starting to work. Either all that or he is happier with a shorter haircut....LOL.

Why just now, I had given them both a bully stick, and before if Cash had stolen his, he would just go sulk and let Cash have both... but he just came in here to the office looked at me and whined (which some how I knew meant "he took my bully") so I went and got it back for Jas who is now happily munching away. I have also been working with Cash more on sharing... "Jasper's" is the word or or "Jasper's turn" if we are playing. it is a slow process , but Cash now understands it...just doesn't always comply if I am not in the room...

Oh wouldn't it be wonderful if he just needed some joint support?


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Oh wow Missy - maybe too the one-on-one time and "retraining" is also having an effect. It's kind of like talk therapy of the dog world. What fabulous news. By the way, I love the way you keep adding to this thread, we can keep up and for anyone who is new, they can get the whole story.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

:whoo: Missy! I am so glad to hear that Jasper is more engaged! He must feel better, no? Keep up the good work!!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I have been so happy to have my boy back... I do think the one-on-one has helped immensely, especially the part at the end of our sessions where I let Cash in and make him wait his turn... I have even started trying to get them to work as a team. I think Jasper sees that Cash doesn't always win. And Cash sees that he still gets a treat even if Jasper has the fun. But Jas is also less sensitive when I touch him, which makes me think the sea mobility is working too... he used to pull his paws away when I would touch them, not so much anymore. and also, I think the wanting to sleep on the bed...I think he can just get more comfortable. Before he would toss and turn now he is just snuggling in. Of course he likes to position himself to breathe in DH's ear which keeps DH up which isn't going to work. I am so excited that maybe (don't want to jinx myself here) that this is working... it also makes me sad that maybe he has spent his whole little life in some pain.


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

Missy,

I'm so excited that you may have found the solution for Jas! I understand feeling "sad that maybe he has spent his whole little life in some pain" but you should be patting yourself on the back. You have stuck with this and tried every solution possible. Many people would have just given up and ignored the problem. IMHO, you get the HERO award today!


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Jill in Mich said:


> Missy, IMHO, you get the HERO award today!


I agree.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

*Jasper Chased a Ball!!!!*

he chased a ball and ran around the whole yard with it!!!!! I wanted to take a picture but couldn't bring myself to miss a minute of it. This is the first time in at least 6 months probably closer to a year he has even looked at any sort of toy. And he is just springing!!! he is now sunning himself on the terrace. but even this is different, he is looking around interested, not just on his side flat out. Oh I hope it lasts.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Missy I am beaming from ear to ear reading your last few posts, I can feel your excitment coming right through my computer. Go Jasper :whoo:


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Missy- sounds like you might have to stop the IWAP group as you got your puppy back!

Great news 

Amanda


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Missy said:


> I couldn't continue with the prozac with Jasper. It made him one step up from catatonic. He literally found a corner and squished himself as far against the wall as he could and would just lay there. He wouldn't even eat steak. He also seemed more sensitive not less. The little over a week he was on them he really seemed as if he had just given up on life, it made his past moods seem like just being a mellow dog. So a few days ago I just stopped, I know people would say I didn't give them a chance, but they didn't see Jasper. So no more worrying about my boy. He is a sensitive guy... and I am just going to deal with it. I do will what I can to give him more confidence and let him have his moods when they happen. Today he is back to his normal self. His eyes are bright again and he even humped Cash...LOL


I wonder if the dose was too high for him?


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Missy said:


> he chased a ball and ran around the whole yard with it!!!!! I wanted to take a picture but couldn't bring myself to miss a minute of it. This is the first time in at least 6 months probably closer to a year he has even looked at any sort of toy. And he is just springing!!! he is now sunning himself on the terrace. but even this is different, he is looking around interested, not just on his side flat out. Oh I hope it lasts.


:whoo::cheer2::thumb:


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## LuvCicero (Mar 31, 2008)

Missy, I am so glad to hear the happy news that Jas is more active. I have lived with joint pain and it does make you depressed and you don't want to get up and down so it's easier to just stay put. After I got on meds I thought I had discovered a miracle drug. Within a week I felt 10 years younger -- heck I might should take 2 a day!! Just keep up what you are doing and I hope you are yelling, Go, Puppy Jas very soon.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

It almost sounds like he has fibromyalgia too! This is so interesting and wonderful. I tip my hat to you Missy!!
Carole


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## MaddiesMom (Apr 1, 2007)

:clap2: Missy and :clap2: Jas! I hope you've found the right solution Missy. I'm so glad to hear he's better. Whatever you're doing, keep it up. I'm so excited for you!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

oh!!! thanks all for sharing my joy. Most people think I am a bit crazy to focus so much on my pooches. even DH thinks I obsess, although he is the first to notice when Jas is blue and he has certainly noticed the difference this week. we are both just loving having TWO dogs who hang out with us. 

Carole it does seem like Fibromyalgia doesn't it? I posed that to the vet and that is why we tried the prozac. I know for me SSRI's really helped with my pain. gee maybe I should try sea cucumber!!!

well he really acted like a dog tonight and followed cash in rolling in rabbit poo... they both got a bath, and I may hate the way they look, but boy were they easy to groom.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Missy, exactly with the fibro. and the ssri. Maybe the prozac was working??? It stays around for awhile, as you know. If the sea cucumber works for you (you be the guinea pig, lmao) then tell me and I'll try it!
Carole


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Carole, I mean if he goes back into a funk I will consider trying it again. But the reason I don't think it is the Prozac is that he never got up to his full dose and he was only on the half dose for week --I stopped on the day I was supposed to up his dose. But I think it would be out of his system by now don't you? I know it sounds dramatic, but when I say he looked suicidal for the week he was on it I am not kidding, he would find the smallest corner in the house and squeeezzzee himself as far against the wall as possible... he barely greeted us when we came home and then very quickly retreated. It was very sad.


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Missy - that's so wierd that you used the word "suicidal" - that's exactly what happens when someone who is really depressed goes on anti-depressants and they begin to work. They think it's because the person has the "energy" to act out their thoughts. It's the storm before the calm. Very, very interesting. Also, I don't know how they are used in the doggy world, but they've had lots and lots of success with tricyclic (sp?) anti-depressants in people for fibro. They can be very sedating but perhaps if he has a relaspe you can talk with the vet about something out of that class and give it at night when he'd want to sleep anyway.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Lisa, I used suicidal on purpose, I do know the effect treatment can have. It was always explained to me as all of a sudden a really depressed person finally had the energy to go through with the act of suicide which is why talk therapy with these drugs are so vital. So far Jas is still being incredible, sweet and engaged. If he does go into a funk again I will talk with the vet about using a 1/4 of a pill with him (2.5mg) although she said the optimum dose for him would 8.5-10. He was getting 5mg. But you know, fish oil too is supposed to help mood. and I switched both boys to a pharmaceutical grade fish oil to go along with their joint support. so who knows...it could be working on all fronts. I know when I first started taking fish oil, it was as if my Celexa started working really well again...LOL I am just keeping my fingers cgrossed. Cash does not really know what to do with an engaged Jasper. So far he is being very aquiessient and rolling over and allowing Jas to gently wrestle away. I think he is afraid Jasper will retreat again... although Jas keeps trying to get him to chase him.


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Missy, isn't pharmacology fascinating? That is so cool about the fish oil - I've read that dogs that come from island areas (Havanese, Maltese, Cotons) and those from the northern European areas (Greenland, Iceland, etc) or Arctic breeds should be on fish based diets. Have you ever heard this?


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Missy, your guess is as good as mine, lol. I know with humans it takes a couple of weeks for Prozac to work and it also takes as long, if not longer for it to leave our bodies. I don't know what the time frame would be in dogs. I say, don't rock the boat baby! Right now all is going so well I would just keep doing what you are doing. You rock!!
Carole


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

Missy, I think you did the right thing in taking Jas off of the Prozac. One of the first anti-depressants I took (can't remember the name now) made me exactly like you describe Jas. It wasn't that I felt like I now had the energy to follow-through on suicidal ideation, I felt like I was completely unable to engage in the world. I could see it, I just couldn't join it. A different feeling than the actual depression - I can only describe it as completely without emotion. If I could have curled up in a ball and just died, I would have. I too took myself off of it about 1 week after starting. 

I saw that article in BARk Magazine about undiagnosed pain - I think you're on to something. This is one of those times when I really wish dogs could communicate directly with us so you knew exactly what was bothering Jasper. 

It's also interesting how Jasper feeling better is changing the dynamics of the family relationships. I'm sure Cash is wondering how long this dog is going to be around, and what happened to the Jasper he's used to.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Jill, I saw that article in bark too!! actually at the vets office while we were on vacation, and then when he became puppyish on the anti-inflammatories I immediately thought of that article and then went out and bought my own copy so I could re-read it before I went to my Vet. I love Bark magazine.

I guess I have been lucky with my own SSRI (celexa) it is the first one I tried and it has always worked. But, all the woman in my family had had success with it before I ever tried it...so they did the leg work for me. I have times where I feel flat, but my dr. told me to just take a two day break every now and then and that seems to work. But I resisted taking them for years! "I didn't need them, I can overcome this, no one's messing with my brain..." but once I did, I couldn't believe I had lived with that much worry and fear and anxiousness my entire life. I had a doctor tell me "if you had a headache you wouldn't think twice about taking Tylenol" and I really can see that in me at least it is chemical.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

*my sweet funny little boy*

Since he has been feeling better, Jasper has been making his desires known.
Instead if curling up in a deep dark corner when I am on the computer he now wants to lie on the couch behind me so he can see what I am doing, it is much puffier and higher than our other chairs and couches, so he sits in front of it and whines until I pick him up and put him on it. He has never done this before. I just think it shows more confidence that he wants to be higher and not below us all the time.

He has also decided he wants to be one of the pack at bedtime, and sleep on the bed with us, he has always preferred his crate and asked to be put down after about 20-30 minutes of bed time...but now he hunkers down if we try to put him down...but he is a little wishy washy on this one. After about 3 hours he wakes us up by huffing in the dark while sitting on the side of the bed looking at his crate. However last night, after about 2 hours of being down in his crate, he came and sat right below DH's head grumbling softly, like "wake up, are you awake?" the dog version of clearing your throat. DH has been working very hard lately, so luckily I was able to grab Jas before he was woken up. I brought Jas up on the bed, but he didn't want to sleep, he wanted to wake up Michael...He had that look like he has when he wants to go for a walk. I settled him and pretty soon he was asleep again and managed to wiggle his way up between our pillows...I get the butt, DH gets the breathing in his ear, which does not go over well with DH. And then because Jasper is on the bed and up by our heads, Cash, who normally sleeps like a log at the foot of the bed makes his way up, and all of a sudden there are too many creatures breathing in one little queen bed.

So on one hand I am delighted that Jasper is feeling more like part of the pack. But on the other hand I prefer it when they both sleep on the floor-- but DH likes Cash on the bed and it has never been a problem before because Jasper never wanted to be on the bed... so now I feel bad allowing Cash to sleep on the bed but not Jasper...but Cash's crate is too small now for him to sleep in comfortably (have I ever mentioned that my big long boy is 30" from the tip of his nose to end of his butt if he stretched out) And I really do not want to get a bigger a crate because the next size up from the 27" one we have is huge. I really didn't mean to go into this dilemma, I am sure it will work itself out... But I just think it is amazing that Jasper is showing us he feels better by wanting to be higher up in addition to being with us more.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Missy sounds like you guys are ready for a King size bed hehehe.

Keep the stories coming, they put a huge smile on my face hearing about Jas coming out of his shell.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

yes Leeann, and a bigger master bedroom to fit the king size bed...oh why not just build an addition for the boys...teehee


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

Leeann said:


> Keep the stories coming, they put a huge smile on my face hearing about Jas coming out of his shell.


Me too! I just love hearing how well Jasper is doing. I can just see him huffing at your husband. "Ehhem, ehhem, yohoo, are you awake? Daaad, are you awake?"

It's interesting how family dynamics change when one of the members starts feeling differently. I can't wait to hear about his antics as he feels better and better and gains in confidence.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

ha ha ha, last night everyone slept through the night (although I had a little medicinal help) Cash started out at the foot of the bed and Jasper between our heads. Woke up to top dog Cash between our heads and Jasper curled stretched out by the small of my back. When we dosed off again, they both managed to fit up by our heads and decided to clean themselves and each other... not really conducive to falling back to sleep.

Before, we went to bed there was some wrestling at the foot of the bed. Where I even said to DH- "see Cash is showing him how he is supposed to sleep in the bed and _who's bed it is"_ Cash would tackle Jasper and get him on his side and then he would lick his face... Cash never licks Jasper, it is always the other way around.

In a way it is like having puppies again (but without the potty training or nipping) because they are figuring out the rules all over again.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Missy, this is just so wonderful!! I am so delighted for the 4 of you!
Carole


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## isshinryu_mom (Mar 23, 2008)

I find the stories about Cash and Jasper so interesting. Wonderful to hear about them discovering "the new rules" of their relationship with each other and with you and dh.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Ok it has been six day since I posted an update on Jassy's mood and 16 days since he has taken any prozac, and since he was only on it for a week I don't think I can attribute his better mood to that anymore. 

He is just so much happier and comfortable with himself and all of us including Cash. I have worked him up to the full dose of of the joint suppliment and continuing with the fish oil. He still has his favorite corners away from the action but he is using them less and less and he just seems more like he' relaxing and not collapsing. Cash does not know what to make of Jas's invites to play-- Jasper will instigate play but as soon as Cash chases him he runs away leaving Cash looking defeated, so I have noticed that now, Cash just rolls over on his back and let's Jasper play kissy face or gently wrestle with him. 

He is even calmer on his walks and with cars. I really think my poor boy had aches and pains and it put him on edge. And it is not just me and Michael who notice, out pet sitter wrote me today saying how much happier Jasper is, she could see it in his eyes and his tail...and neighbors have stopped when we walk him saying he is so much friendlier.


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Wow - this is just such an incredible story Missy. Have you done any research to find out if there are studies that show personality changes after adding the fish oil? It would be fascinating to find out.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Lisa, I have not found anything on dogs and fish oil...But there is a lot of clinical research on it's use in humans for depression and certainly all sorts of inflammation from arthritis to IBD and heart conditions with amazing results. I myself have noticed a better mood and much less achy since taking it. And of course if you are less achy you feel better. So the Glucosomine and Chondroitin (I never spell these right) could be helping too. 

The best read on how fish oil works (and how to start taking it) is the Anti-inflammation Zone by Barry Sears.


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

So interesting - and I agree, if you don't hurt, you are way happier. Glad it's working for you too.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

*Poor Cash!!!*

Yay Jasper... So tonight I gave both boys the remainder of some bully sticks. As usual I let Cash pick which one he wants and then give Jasper the other one (because he is going to take Jasper's anyway) ... Cash immediately puts his down and goes after the one Jasper has and Jasper grabs the one Cash left behind. In this case it was the bigger the one... Usually they then settle down a while for a chew... but knowing he'd been duped into getting the smaller chew Cash once again pursued Jasper's Bully... well normally Jas just leaves it and goes back to the new one Cash left behind. But Tonight, Jasper told Cash that this was his Bully! He did it twice. just a low growl. Poor Cash lied there all flat with his nose an inch from Jasper's---and just whined. After a while I took Cash in another room and had him do tricks for treats for me all the while telling him how good he was to share. LOL.

I am pinching myself, he is becoming so confident. I think Jasper is learning from the play dates we've had, he just sits there and watches during the playdates and then tries out some tactics that other dogs employ when he is alone with Cash. Like yesterday evening he ran like hell and invited Cash to chase him just like Michele's Kodi and Shelby did with Cash. (jasper of course then rolled in poo) And then my cousin brought her dog over. Who just enhaled bully's and growled at Cash when he came near. 
and many years ago-- my hav-a-niece showed him how to sit on a lap...he had never done it until he saw lucy do it. He's just like a little kid who never says a word and them comes out with a whole sentence.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

well...I may be the only one to read this.. but it is a great record for me to go back and read... Jasper RLH today with his green ball!!! as my pet sitter said "is it my imagination? or has he lost that haunted look he had in his eyes?" He still is not the most playful pup in the room, but he has indeed lost that haunted, dull look. And when he does run, he has this spring in his step that I have not seen since he was a puppy... I don't know what it is that's doing it...but I am not changing a thing. I do feel I need to start doing something special with Cash too... now he is withdrawing a bit, but his nature usually takes over and he comes to cuddle. He's just not used to sharing the cuddles. 

I'm telling you, if you have a somewhat reclusive pup who doesn't have that HAV personality... experiment with a new food... or try some sort of inflammation/joint support. I have been blown away by the change.


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Missy, I'll always read your updates - I'm fascinated by the changes and continued improvement that you are seeing with Jasper. And I'm amazed that your pet sitter noticed and thought it was her imagination. What a wonderful, wonderful story. And a true one!


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## judith (Dec 15, 2006)

missy, i have enjoyed reading about jasper and his personalty changes. i just bought some fish oil for myself and wondered what the dosage is for dogs? looking forward to hearing about jasper's progress. judy


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

judith, i think the goal for a dog under 20 lbs is to work up to a tsp a day. I have been using Seapet. But I see no reason why you can use the oil you got for yourself, although this may be one instance that the ones for pets are cheaper. and If your's may be flavored with lemon or orange...not sure if your dog would go for that.

http://www.seapet.com/Oil.htm#gold


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## judith (Dec 15, 2006)

missy, thanks for the response. the fish oil capsules i bought from costco were very inexpensive. the website you sent also sells capsules (1000mg) so i guess the dosage is the same. i will have to expeiment how to administer them.


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## havaluv (Oct 15, 2007)

I am just catching up on this thread. Missy, your stories of Jasper and Cash and the changes you are seeing are wonderful and so fun to read. I think you are doing a great job of figuring out what's best for Jasper. 
It's so good to read that Jasper is improving. I use fish oil with Ollie too. It's in a pump and you just put a squirt onto their food. It's *really* fishy, stinky, but he seems to like it. Mine is called Aller-G, I got the first bottle from a dermatologist vet in CA and the second I ordered online.


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## mom23boys (Jun 26, 2008)

So happy to hear that things are looking brighter!!!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

*even my Vet saw the difference...*

Today I had to take Cash to the vets to have his hot spots looked at...(sure enough a bacterial infection more in the ear mites post) so while I was there I had Jasper's anal glands expressed too...and told her my whole tale. She was amazed...she was amazed (although she scolded me for not calling her when Jasper was catatonic on the prozac) But she was observing him while she was working with Cash on the table and after and then after she expressed his glands...and she said, he looks so much brighter than the last time...he was not hiding in a corner and his tail was wagging she too used the expression that he no longer has that haunted look in his eyes. She joked that it took the horrible experience on prozac to exorcise the demons. The bad news is, the miracle kibble and suppliments that seem to be working wonders for Jasper could be causing Cash's hot spots and infections...so back to medallions for him. Oh and Jas is still running with the ball and asking Cash to play...


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Missy, that's absolutely amazing. Too bad about the hot spots, once you get them under control, try adding back the one thing that you think works best and see if it's just the combination of the two. If the supplements were causing the hot spots, my experience and the vets I've spoken with have been that they can show up within hours of the allergen's introduction. If I could find a graphic of two champagne glasses toasting, I'd put it in here for you Cash and Jasper.

Which reminds me, did you check and see if the pet insurance actually did launch in MA on September 1st. I have an update, so will post in that thread as well.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Jasper continues to be a different dog...He did not join in the fun at the play date, but watched and took notes.....and after a day of sleeping yesterday he is again, imitating what all the other dogs did at the play date and he and Cash have been going at it since I have been home. It is such a delight to watch. He ran with the ball, he has been cuddling on my lap...did I mention he is no longer finicky? He has been consistantly happy for almost 2 months. And to boot, all this play is helping Cash get back his figure. 

I just have to say again, don't be afraid to go against conventional or even non conventional thinking in terms of diet...my boys are living proof. Jasper absolutely is a different dog on Royal Canine Kibble, with all it's corn gluten and processed vitamins. Cash gains weight on kibble and does best on the NV chicken medallions and not any other kind.. Where as Jasper was sluggish on an all protein diet... But Cash's hot spots have gone away and I can almost feel his ribs... 

Just had to share an update.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

*proof!*

Ok 4 months later.... a RLH. the pictures aren't that great. But I think they are fun.


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## LuvCicero (Mar 31, 2008)

Yep, Jasper seems to be doing great on corn gluten...just like I do better on chocolate. :biggrin1: I also think the reason Cicero was picky for a while was because he didn't like what I was offering him. Just like DH he had rather have country cooking instead of expensive meals. The Pro Plan Turkey...boiled chicken and raw veggies -- and he has lots of energy and is happy. I'm over feeling guilty about his foods. My Pom lived 17 years and was always happy and healthy.

Jasper sure looks like he is having fun RLH on his kibble !!


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Missy, I am just reading through this thread and am so happy to see jas being a dog. Loved the pics of his RLH. 

I have tried giving my two fish oil to try to improve their coats and I also believe it is a very beneficial supplement for other things. They would not eat because they don't like the fishy smell. I'm going to have to try something different.


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## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

Oh Missy, it is so great to see that RLH. Glad things are improving for your boys!


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Wow, I just read through this whole thread--it's been SO interesting! (I'm supposed to have been studying microbiology, but couldn't stop reading to find the results thus far.) Fish oil, huh? Maybe I'll try that for myself, too. Its amazing to read what differences you've been able to stumble across in your vigilant search to help your Jasper. Kudos to you for your tenacity.

Love the pictures of Jasper running. Hope you keep the tread updated.

Sheri


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## lcy_pt (Aug 17, 2007)

Awww Missy....just finished rereading the whole thread. You done good!

Run Jasper Run :clap2:


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

Yeah! He looks so happy, and you have a beautiful yard!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Thanks all for sharing in my joy. I keep pinching myself and asking "is this for real Jasper?" He is so much happier. I still have to size them-- and they are not that great...But I also have some shots of the boys playing together from the same day... Jasper gets Cash to chase him and then he chases Cash. the roll and tumble, and jasper comes back for more instead of running away. It has been great and does my heart good.

I feel I should change the name of this thread. to "who needs canine anti-depressants?"


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Missy, Now that you have your 2 boys figured, out................... Time for a THIRD!!! And just think how the dynamics would change??? hmmmmm

I also want asecond for Beamer...

Ryan


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Missy, :whoo:!

Great photos and I'm glad that Jas is doing so well!

Lincoln is also much peppier since I switched his food. But that might also be because he has gotten used to Scout being around, and has finally forgiven us. :biggrin1:


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

Missy,
I loved the pictures of Jasper and I am so glad he feeling good now. You are the best Mom


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