# High Protein VS Low Protein



## hav2 (Feb 26, 2010)

Some of you know that just a couple of days ago I posted a thread about Fergus' poopies being soft. So I started amending his diet. His poopies are improving quickly on the new food, which is Oijen. I am aware that this is a high protein food. The Blue that he was getting was 26% protein and now the Orijen is 38% protein. I have read in some other threads and on the web that high protein diets can cause liver problems. This is quite scary to me. I was hoping you all could give some opinions on the high vs low issue. I mean he seems to really love this food and he is doing well so far, I just don't want him to have issues down the road. So anyone who feeds this brand or has dealt with liver issues or has any insight into this, I would appreciate the comments and help


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Jenn, there are many threads about this here on the forum, so I'll post a few below that you can check out. However, high protein diets do NOT cause liver or kidney issues as some people say. It is a myth. Maybe 10, 12-20 yrs. ago, this could be the case but that was because companies were including a lot of 'ash' in their kibble, which means that a lot of bone from the animal was thrown in and that it was too much. Too much ash content can cause liver/kidney problems, but that is no longer an issue with high quality kibble, such as Orijen (not to mention dozens of others). Check out www.dogfoodanalysis.com for a look at great kibble products.

IF your dog already has organ trouble, then a high protein diet is not recommended, but it will not cause organ trouble. Here are some links to threads here and to sites on the web. Hope that helps. 

http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=3920&highlight=protein

http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=11136&highlight=protein

This article: www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=protein_myth


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Here's another site: http://doggybytes.ca/vet-protein-hard-dogs-kidneys/2244/

Quote:* "The following statements are quoted from CANINE AND FELINE NUTRITION by Case, Carey and Hirakawa, Published by C.V.Mosby, 1995 Source: The Pet Center

"There is no conclusive evidence showing that protein intake actually contributes to the development of kidney dysfunction in healthy animals." (page 117)

"It is recommended that the protein in the diet of geriatric dogs should not be restricted simply because of old age." (page 256)

"In general, high-quality animal source proteins provide superior amino acid balances for companion animals, compared with the amino acid balances that are supplied by grain proteins." (page 174) "*


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## Lola (Mar 22, 2007)

I have a dog with a liver issue. She was born with a small liver and i have to be careful with high protein in her food. She has been on Denamarin for the last 3 years to help her liver metabolize more efficiently. She was on a special prescription diet for 2 years but now eats regular food because her alt levels tested normal for 2 years. I keep her foodat 24 to 25 percent protein because the vet recommended that she not eat food with high protein. My other dog has not had any liver issues and I am able to feed her any protein amount. However, I have had some vomiting issues with richer food so I keep it at 24% protein and have not had a problem. I am currently feed both with Fromm's Chicken Ala Vegetable and have not had a problem.


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

I think the bigger risk is that the kidneys are taxed when feeding these high protein diets. I used to feed Orijen and the dogs are constantly drinking drinking drinking water and peeing up a storm. They need the extra water intake to properly break down and metabolize the high amount of protein in the food. It is too hard on their kidneys, and frankly according to my vet, there is no need to feed such high protein to a companion dog - a working, hunting or mushing dog yes - but not a toy dog.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

Arlene, that's really interesting about the water. It's funny because when I got Roscoe he always drank a lot of water, but as soon as we transferred him off the food the breeder was feeding (Purina Pro Plan Puppy - I know, but that's another story), he seemed to start drinking LESS! I wonder why that is...he definitely doesn't drink a ton or pee a lot.


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## tsturbo (Jul 28, 2009)

Chandler has been on Orijen since we brought him home at 8 weeks, he loves it, but Arlene you raise a good point, as he does drink and pee a lot. Hmmm, might be time to research other dog foods.


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## JetersMom (Sep 21, 2008)

Hi
I have a female Hav named Lola. She started having small seizures months ago. After many tests and no diagnosis I asked my vet to to a bile acid test. Her levels were off -I am going to Cornell University on Thursday to get more help. BUt I did assume it was a liver disease and cut back on her protein - I'm making her homemade food ( turkey, sweet potato, oatmeal and green beans ) and no seizures in three weeks. Can you recommend a commercial dog food other than Hills prescription. What worked for your dog. THanks Sheri


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## MaddiesMom (Apr 1, 2007)

JetersMom, I used to feed my previous Hav with liver disease Solid Gold Holistique. It has 18% protein. This was approved by her specialist. I eventually had to go to home cooking in the later stages when her appetite got worse, but the Holistique worked for quite awhile. The lowered protein for her was really important, as she'd get very nauseous and throw up if the protein level was higher than her liver could tolerate. I hope this helps.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Hmm, I always thought it was good for them to drink a lot and pee a lot. Flushes out their kidneys.


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

mellowbo said:


> Hmm, I always thought it was good for them to drink a lot and pee a lot. Flushes out their kidneys.


It's not good when the drinking is due to high protein in the food and the peeing means the kidneys are working harder than they need to.


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## MaddiesMom (Apr 1, 2007)

Drinking alot of water and having to go out to pee alot was the *only* symptom my prior Hav had when she was diagnosed with severe liver disease. Excessive water drinking is also often a symptom of liver impairment.


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## tsturbo (Jul 28, 2009)

So based on this information, what is the reccomended kibble to feed them? I was under the asumption that orijen was one of the best


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

tsturbo said:


> So based on this information, what is the reccomended kibble to feed them? I was under the asumption that orijen was one of the best


It is. According to my vet, what was said above holds true. A high protein diet will not CAUSE liver disease, but it's not recommended for those who ALREADY have liver disease. When I was picking foods, I found several studies through databases that showed this...unfortunately, since I graduated I don't have access anymore, so I can't post the links


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## Miss Paige (Apr 4, 2008)

I have both Roman & Frannie on a low protein diet-Roman's kidney levels were higher than what I am comfortable with. And I have to watch the protein intake on Frannie because of her crystals. I have been working on a home cooked diet and have told the person working with me that I don't want a high protein diet for my kids.

Pat (humom to)
Miss Paige
Mr Roman
Ms Frannie


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

Miss Paige said:


> I have both Roman & Frannie on a low protein diet-Roman's kidney levels were higher than what I am comfortable with. And I have to watch the protein intake on Frannie because of her crystals. I have been working on a home cooked diet and have told the person working with me that I don't want a high protein diet for my kids.
> 
> Pat (humom to)
> Miss Paige
> ...


This is the other issue with an extremely high protein diet. Not only is it not recommended for dogs that already have liver problems, but it is very hard on the kidneys.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

I guess I was thinking of the kidneys. My friends hav has crystals and the vet told her that he wants her hav to drink a lot and pee a lot to flush them out.

I feed mine NV raw and just looked at the package. It is only 13% protein. That surprised me!


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Carole, that is 13% including the moisture. When you're calculating protein of wet food, it isn't at all what is on the box/can/bag. I've posted the "formula" many times and will try to find a link....

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+1661&aid=662

Thread, among many.... http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=3920&highlight=calculating+protein


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I have never had a dog with kidney or liver issues but I have heard it is a common myth that high protein is bad for liver and kidney. When I decided to go raw after a seminar with a homeopath she treats a lot of dogs with these problems and works on a diet for them with their owners. I have heard it is about the type of protein the dog is getting not the amount. I know any dog fed a kibble diet will naturally drink more water than a raw or canned fed and that makes sense regardless of what kibble they are on. If you drink more, you are probably going to urinate more too! Anyone who is thinking about going low protein really needs to get their vet (or a good vet) involved as you could be hurting your dog more than helping.



> Dietary Protein and the Kidney by Patricia Schenck, DVM, PhD, Veterinary Nutritionist
> "High protein diets cause an increase in blood flow through the kidney (glomerular filtration rate). The myth has been that if the dietary protein is restricted, this will make the kidney work less, and will 'spare' the kidney from damage. Thus in the past, many have recommended low protein diets to 'protect' a dog from developing kidney disease. This has been the focus of considerable research over the last 10 years. There has been no scientific evidence to support this theory. The feeding of low levels of dietary protein are NOT protective against the development of kidney disease.
> "Reducing dietary protein in the older pet will not protect them from the development of renal disease. In fact, reducing the protein in the older dog's diet may have adverse effects. As pets age, their ability to utilize nutrients decreases. The older pet actually requires a higher level of protein to maintain its body stores of protein than does the younger adult dog. . . .
> "Dietary protein restriction is appropriate in renal failure when the disease has become severe. Restriction of protein is based on the appearance of clinical signs. It has been recommended to start protein restriction when the dog's BUN (blood urea nitrogen) is greater than 80 mg/dL [28.6 mmol/L], and the serum creatinine is greater than 2.5 mg/dL [221 µmol/L]. Both BUN and serum creatinine are good indicators of kidney function. Protein is restricted in an attempt to keep the BUN below 60 mg/dL [21.4 mmol/L]. Dietary protein may need to be gradually decreased over time as renal failure progresses."


http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidneyprotein.html

This site has a lot of links and research you may want to share with your vet.


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

ama0722 said:


> I have never had a dog with kidney or liver issues but I have heard it is a common myth that high protein is bad for liver and kidney. When I decided to go raw after a seminar with a homeopath she treats a lot of dogs with these problems and works on a diet for them with their owners. I have heard it is about the type of protein the dog is getting not the amount. I know any dog fed a kibble diet will naturally drink more water than a raw or canned fed and that makes sense regardless of what kibble they are on. If you drink more, you are probably going to urinate more too! Anyone who is thinking about going low protein really needs to get their vet (or a good vet) involved as you could be hurting your dog more than helping.


I've also heard/read the same thing: it's not the high protein, it's the kind of protein you feed.


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Thanks for the link, Amanda. Lots of good info there.


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

*Article - Protein Requirements for Good Nutrition*

This is a good article. 
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+1661&aid=702

What I get from this is that these high protein diets truly don't contribute that much to the value of their nutrition, but take a bite out of your pocketbook


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

I just keep thinking of what a "dog" in the wild would eat and it seems to me it would be plenty of meat (protein). My thinking seems to go a long with yours Amanda.


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## Miss Paige (Apr 4, 2008)

Amanda,

Great links-I do have my vets involved with the diet plans. As everyone knows Frannie sees her heart dr every three months and goes pee in a baby food jaw also every three months. Rom was the one that was unexpected-his levels have never been high even when he was on a raw diet. The funny thing was that Paige's levels were fine and she was eating the same canned food. I felt better when I was feeding both Paige and Roman a raw diet. Frannie can't have the raw because of her medical problems.

I get so tired of reading labels-LOL I read more labels for the dogs that I ever read for my human family. Heck as I have said the "kids" eat better than me.

Pat (humom to)
Miss Paige
Mr Roman
Ms Frannie


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

It absolutely would! This is why the type of protein in raw diets is different from the protein in the high protein kibble  The way their bodies metabolizes it is different also.


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## Mojo's Mom (Jun 6, 2009)

mellowbo said:


> I just keep thinking of what a "dog" in the wild would eat and it seems to me it would be plenty of meat (protein).


People like to say this because it seems simple and logical, but....when have you ever seen a Havanese "in the wild". We have changed these animals drastically from their ancestors, and it may not follow that they should eat as wolves would. Still, it is hard to make an argument against high protein.

In my case, Mojo eats what he WILL eat, and that happens to be a food with about 28% protein. That said, he gets plenty of real meat added in, and veggies and wet dog food, too. So the net effect is probably pretty high protein.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jul 28, 2010)

Mojo's Mom said:


> People like to say this because it seems simple and logical, but....when have you ever seen a Havanese "in the wild". We have changed these animals drastically from their ancestors, and it may not follow that they should eat as wolves would. Still, it is hard to make an argument against high protein.
> 
> In my case, Mojo eats what he WILL eat, and that happens to be a food with about 28% protein. That said, he gets plenty of real meat added in, and veggies and wet dog food, too. So the net effect is probably pretty high protein.


Bringing up this old thread while researching the Havanese.

But it doesn't matter if a Havanese or any other toy breed actually live in the wild. All dogs, including Havanese, pretty much are wolves. They are taxonomically the same species, and physiologically and anatomically the same and actually share 99.8% of the same DNA. Size and appearance are in the less than .2% differences, therefore I like to feed a food that is 'close' to what the wolves eat in the wild (ok, we know wolves aren't getting served kibble in a bowl... but it's the closest you can get, IMO, besides feeding raw which many do).

Anyways, it's just my personal preference to feed grain free, low carb, meat protein rich foods. Ultimately, though, I think it's what works best for you and your dog. I've done alot of research and have finally settled that this works best for Jackson!


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## Narwyn (Jan 24, 2010)

Jacksons Mom said:


> But it doesn't matter if a Havanese or any other toy breed actually live in the wild. All dogs, including Havanese, pretty much are wolves. They are taxonomically the same species, and physiologically and anatomically the same and actually share 99.8% of the same DNA. Size and appearance are in the less than .2% differences, therefore I like to feed a food that is 'close' to what the wolves eat in the wild (ok, we know wolves aren't getting served kibble in a bowl... but it's the closest you can get, IMO, besides feeding raw which many do).


Well, we share a similar amount of DNA with chimpanzees, and I'm pretty sure we eat differently from them 

I also think the genetic selection process that went with domestication created breeds who thrived on whatever diet were being fed.

Portuguese Water Dogs probably ate a lot of fish and kelp...

Hunting dogs (sporting dogs) probably ate lots of the meat that people didn't eat - some of the organ meat, bones, marrow, generally high-protein left overs...

Toy breeds probably ate pretty much what their people were eating. Grains, vegetables, some meat as well...

The dogs that thrived on these diets were the ones who reproduced, creating a next generation of dogs programmed to do well on that same diet.

Clover had very high liver/kidney levels earlier this year on Wellness Core ocean fish (which is 34% protein, high but a lot lower than many no grain foods). I started mixing in their regular Super 5 fish food (22%) and he is doing significantly better, not only his blood work but he seems to feel better.

At the end of the day, like people, individual dogs have different metabolisms and you just have to find what will work for the individual.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

This got to confusing for me. I feed Rosie kibble and raw meat, mainly pork loin, sometimes hamburger. She gets the raw meat for treats and since she is a begger gets raw veggies that I am chopping. Just let me go to the kitchen and the chopping board and she is there begging. I always give her a small piece of whatever veggie--she doesn't like potato. Just showing her that is the veggie and she will walk off. But any kind of meat she will scarf down and beg for more. So she pretty much gets high protein always.


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