# BATTLING TEAR STAINS



## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

MMoore said:


> Neither of your dogs seem to have tear stains - is that natural or do you treat it with something? Finley has some serious tear staining, and we've started treating it with a solution, but haven't seen much change yet. Do your dogs not have an issue, or do you have a remedy/prevention you recommend?


This is a query from another thread. We have a lot of new owners with Havapuppies at this time, and rather than hijacking that thread, let's discuss tear staining here.

The issue of tearing staining has been discussed on HF often over the years. Use the "search" function at the top of this page to access those discussions. Here is a summary of what I remember as ways to end tear stains. It appears that there is no one right way, different things seem to work for different Havaowners, so it might be necessary to do a little experimenting on your own.

- tear stains are most apparent on dogs with white fur around the eyes. Some Havaowners have dogs with tear stains on dark faces, but since it isn't apparent, they just ignore it.
- some have found that a change in diet will clear up tear stains.
- some use supplements especially made for tear stains that ended the problem (it didn't work for Ricky). HF members, as well as our Vet, do not recommend "Angel Eyes" product for any use.
- some have found that frequent washing the area is the most effective way to treat tear stains. This is what worked for us.

Ricky had a problem with tear stains as a young dog. Half of his face is white, half black. The tear stains were kind of a purplish color. We tried everything to make the stains go away. Tear stains are caused by excess proteins in some dog's tears, not all Havanese have this issue, it is a result of their physiology. In the end, the simplest solution worked for us. We wash the "schmutz" (the debris at the corners of the eyes, that's what Momi calls it) with a damp cloth soaked in DISTILLED water at least once a day. If you leave the schmutz for too long, it becomes hard and crusty and more difficult to clean. It took us about a month or two initially of daily cleaning to clean the area for good - it just won't go away the next day! Persistence matters! Today Ricky has no more tear stains and hasn't for years, but we still wash below his tear ducts on a daily basis.

Havanese are an absolutely wonderful breed of dog for many people. I read recently that they are in the top 10 of popularity in AKC (generally more popular on the East Coast than West Coast). BUT, it takes a bit of work to keep them in tip-top condition both in appearance and physically. Tear staining can be one of those aggravating issues. Read up in the archives and give some of the methods a try. Let us know what works best for you. There is a solution, you just have to experiment and search for it.

Ricky's Popi


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

thanks for the summary. Jack had some tear staining and eye-crusties. If you don't deal with the crusties daily, it will be a battle to the death to get them off. not fun. Jack's biggest staining was his beard. Little white faces are hard but worth it. And, remember, while you are torturing them.... err gently washing their face, you might as well brush their teeth.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

We thought tear staining was actually caused by yeast, not protein, and that the product we use prevents the yeast from growing. I just did a google search however and found this article.

We swear by this product to prevent tear stains:

Vet Classics Tear Stain Supplement Powder

We get it from our vet. At first, we had to sprinkle a bit on her food each day for 30 days. Now, we maintain by sprinkling it on her food twice a week. A tiny spoon comes with the product along with directions telling you exactly how much to use.

New puppy owners, please "register" your 2020 puppy in this thread!


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Ricky had a problem with tear stains as a young dog. Half of his face is white, half black. The tear stains were kind of a purplish color. We tried everything to make the stains go away. Tear stains are caused by excess proteins in some dog's tears, not all Havanese have this issue, it is a result of their physiology. In the end, the simplest solution worked for us. We wash the "schmutz" (the debris at the corners of the eyes, that's what Momi calls it) with a damp cloth soaked in DISTILLED water at least once a day.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


Popi, why do you use distilled water to clean Ricky's eyes? I clean Willow's eyes with a wipe dampened with just tap water. She has saliva staining (also stains her feet which she licks) but now I think she is getting some tear staining too. I've been using our well water which is run through a house filter, plus a Zero Water filtered pitcher kept in the refer. Maybe I should just switch to bottled water.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

ShamaMama said:


> We swear by this product to prevent tear stains:
> 
> Vet Classics Tear Stain Supplement Powder
> 
> ...


I found this product on Amazon. I see they have chews also. Willow's a little picky when it comes to sprinkling things on her food. Might be worth a try though. Maybe it will help the saliva staining.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

ShamaMama said:


> We thought tear staining was actually caused by yeast, not protein, and that the product we use prevents the yeast from growing. I just did a google search however and found this article.
> 
> We swear by this product to prevent tear stains:
> 
> ...


My understanding is that there are multiple factors that can cause tear staining, and it can be related to yeast, but also bacteria, or something else. IMO that's why so many people struggle with them, because you have to guess which is the primary issue and each treatment can take a long time to see results. Maybe the yeast is the most common so it helps to start there. A lot of people get lucky the first try, but I think going into it knowing it might take a while to see results is a more realistic expectation, and getting lucky would be like a nice surprise! I'm assuming it has to be long enough for the hair to grow and see if it's improved, because I haven't found anything safe that removes old stains.

I switched to a different probiotic when I noticed darker tear stains and don't see much change, but I committed to 4 months, so I'm going to give it a little more time. The Vet Classics is on my list to try next, but I'm honestly not sure I'll pursue it beyond those two. Sundance is cute to me regardless, and when I'm good about keeping his face dry, the tear stains are less noticeable, even if they don't go away. They look much worse in pictures. I think the camera has a strange way of reading the colors and contrast in his coat.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> Popi, why do you use distilled water to clean Ricky's eyes? I clean Willow's eyes with a wipe dampened with just tap water. She has saliva staining (also stains her feet which she licks) but now I think she is getting some tear staining too. I've been using our well water which is run through a house filter, plus a Zero Water filtered pitcher kept in the refer. Maybe I should just switch to bottled water.


This came up regarding Maltese in my area (they are much more common here) because we have such hard, terrible water. It was recommended they drink bottled water, not just wipe eyes with it. I'm pretty sure it came from the vet, too. I can't remember if it was distilled water or bottled water, though. I looked into it once locally and I can't remember what it is about the water here, but it's beyond what a drinking water filter would fix.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> This came up regarding Maltese in my area (they are much more common here) because we have such hard, terrible water. It was recommended they drink bottled water, not just wipe eyes with it. I'm pretty sure it came from the vet, too. I can't remember if it was distilled water or bottled water, though. I looked into it once locally and I can't remember what it is about the water here, but it's beyond what a drinking water filter would fix.


The concern I have with consuming bottled water is that plastics can leach into the water from the bottle itself. Water bottles are transferred in hot trucks and this makes it worse. We use a water filter for our drinking water. However it is hard to filter out the fluoride so we use special filters for that which doesn't get 100 percent of it out, but close.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> Popi, why do you use distilled water to clean Ricky's eyes? I clean Willow's eyes with a wipe dampened with just tap water. She has saliva staining (also stains her feet which she licks) but now I think she is getting some tear staining too. I've been using our well water which is run through a house filter, plus a Zero Water filtered pitcher kept in the refer. Maybe I should just switch to bottled water.


Jackie, we use either distilled or Britta water to clean his face. I avoid using tap water because it has so many undesirable chemicals and minerals in it. Ricky drinks only Britta filtered water and we change the filters frequently. Ricky frequently preens himself with his tongue. We don't have any saliva staining anywhere since we changed to Britta from tap water.

It is my opinion that the Britta filter is superior to Zero Water despite what their advertisement says (read Consumer Reports comparison).

Generally speaking, I am NOT a fan of bottled water for a number of reasons (my doctor says I worry needlessly).

I hope everyone realizes that a dog should NOT be given distilled water to drink - NEVER, NEVER, NEVER!

Ricky's Popi


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

mudpuppymama said:


> The concern I have with consuming bottled water is that plastics can leach into the water from the bottle itself. Water bottles are transferred in hot trucks and this makes it worse. We use a water filter for our drinking water. However it is hard to filter out the fluoride so we use special filters for that which doesn't get 100 percent of it out, but close.


Yes, that's true. At least in my area, this type of water filtration system is thousands of dollars. I don't remember the details, but when we bought our house I looked into it and because of the composition of our water, typical filters would improve the taste to some degree but won't actually "fix" our water. It requires a more advanced filtration system, which you probably know a lot more about. There is water bottled in aluminum (I think?) if plastic is a concern.

As a side rant, I was so mad about water bottles when DS was last in the hospital. I accidentally left my water bottle all filled up on the counter at home, and when I went to the cafeteria to buy one they don't sell them for environmental reasons. I was SO MAD. MYbe I was emotional and I still can't see rationally. I use a reusable water bottle 90% of the time. But they're going to judge me and refuse to sell me a disposable water bottle in a hospital of all places? What about the families inthe emergency room, who weren't expecting to be without water? And then some 20 year old tried to mansplain why they weren't there and I just couldn't believe it. Yeah, I know about the environment, I haven't been living under a rock, ugh. I don't need to go down the list of all the changes I've made since we bought our house, or flash around my Hydroflask, I just need a water bottle in a pinch. Also, I don't really have a hydroflask, I have the dishwasher safe brand i spent a lot of time researching so that our family has interchangeable replacement lids we can buy individually, lol. And my dishwasher is energy efficient. I mean, no wonder people get so defensive about this stuff!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I hope everyone realizes that a dog should NOT be given distilled water to drink - NEVER, NEVER, NEVER!
> 
> Ricky's Popi


I didn't know this! I'm glad you mentioned it. But I only keep distilled water for my iron, and I'm not much for ironing so it's probably been sitting in my laundry room for at least a year, lol.

DS has electrolyte issues and after his kidney transplant he had to drink 3L of water a day to keep his kidney healthy. I can't remember why but they had him drink distilled water for a couple of days. He hated it, he said it tasted so weird, but I couldn't tell. He drinks diluted Gatorade, 3L a day, because the glucose somehow fixes his absorption issues.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> And then some 20 year old tried to mansplain why they weren't there and I just couldn't believe it. Yeah, I know about the environment, I haven't been living under a rock, ugh.


This side rant made me laugh. I can totally picture your face when the kid is mansplaining to you! :grin2:


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Yes, that's true. At least in my area, this type of water filtration system is thousands of dollars. I don't remember the details, but when we bought our house I looked into it and because of the composition of our water, typical filters would improve the taste to some degree but won't actually "fix" our water. It requires a more advanced filtration system, which you probably know a lot more about. There is water bottled in aluminum (I think?) if plastic is a concern.
> 
> As a side rant, I was so mad about water bottles when DS was last in the hospital. I accidentally left my water bottle all filled up on the counter at home, and when I went to the cafeteria to buy one they don't sell them for environmental reasons. I was SO MAD. MYbe I was emotional and I still can't see rationally. I use a reusable water bottle 90% of the time. But they're going to judge me and refuse to sell me a disposable water bottle in a hospital of all places? What about the families inthe emergency room, who weren't expecting to be without water? And then some 20 year old tried to mansplain why they weren't there and I just couldn't believe it. Yeah, I know about the environment, I haven't been living under a rock, ugh. I don't need to go down the list of all the changes I've made since we bought our house, or flash around my Hydroflask, I just need a water bottle in a pinch. Also, I don't really have a hydroflask, I have the dishwasher safe brand i spent a lot of time researching so that our family has interchangeable replacement lids we can buy individually, lol. And my dishwasher is energy efficient. I mean, no wonder people get so defensive about this stuff!


The whole water filtration issue is totally confusing and everybody has different opinions. For example, some say reverse osmosis is wonderful. Others say it is bad because it removes everything...both good and bad. We just use a Berkey which does not cost much and supposedly good, however many people will not agree with this either. And Popi pointed out once they are illegal in California. However, there are tons of things in California that are illegal that are considered fine elsewhere (no offense to California Popi) but this is true. As far as the hospital not having a few bottles of water on hand, that seems extreme. I was not talking about environmental aspects. I just meant I avoid it because of the leaching of plastic chemicals into the water that I do not want my dogs or me ingesting.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> DS has electrolyte issues and after his kidney transplant he had to drink 3L of water a day to keep his kidney healthy. ....... He drinks diluted Gatorade, 3L a day, because the glucose somehow fixes his absorption issues.


Interestingly, while I was in the hospital for a month, the doctors wanted me to drink a "sports drink" (e.g. Gatorade) to hydrate and as a therapeutic for my kidneys that had been stressed during heart surgery as a result of necessary strong medications absorbed and eliminated in/from my body. Evidently there is some medical research about the benefits of sports drinks and electrolytes under some conditions. After 4 months, my kidneys are now functioning normally and sports drinks are no longer necessary for me. And Ricky and I walked almost 3 miles this morning!

Regarding drinking distilled water, neither human or animal should drink distilled water because of the lack of essential nutrients.....UNLESS PRESCRIBED AND SUPERVISED BY A QUALIFIED (MD OR VET) MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL.

(Momi and Ricky are out in the kitchen right now and Momi is giggling! She thinks Ricky is about the funniest comedian in the world!)

Ricky's Popi


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

mudpuppymama said:


> We just use a Berkey which does not cost much and supposedly good, however many people will not agree with this either. And Popi pointed out once they are illegal in California. However, there are tons of things in California that are illegal that are considered fine elsewhere (no offense to California Popi) but this is true.


Because California bans so many products doesn't mean they are incorrect. Other States wait for Californicans to fund the research with their taxes and then other States tag along with no cost to them. California found that the Berkey filter does not meet the minimum standards for lead transmission leached into the filtered water as a result of its design. The Berkey Company said they were going to ignore those standards because it would cost too much to fix their design. Who knows who's right, but that is a gamble I have chosen not to take.

Ricky's Popi


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

we have a whole house filtering system for our well water. It tasted awful before and my hair turned green. The filter system helped with the taste but the plumber claims that the individual pipes to our bathroom have excess flux and that is what is turning my hair green. uh huh.. sure. I did think that there was less eye crusties.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Interestingly, while I was in the hospital for a month, the doctors wanted me to drink a "sports drink" (e.g. Gatorade) to hydrate and as a therapeutic for my kidneys that had been stressed during heart surgery as a result of necessary strong medications absorbed and eliminated in/from my body. Evidently there is some medical research about the benefits of sports drinks and electrolytes under some conditions. After 4 months, my kidneys are now functioning normally and sports drinks are no longer necessary for me. And Ricky and I walked almost 3 miles this morning!
> 
> Regarding drinking distilled water, neither human or animal should drink distilled water because of the lack of essential nutrients.....UNLESS PRESCRIBED AND SUPERVISED BY A QUALIFIED (MD OR VET) MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL.
> 
> ...


That is really interesting about the sports drink in the hospital! It's pretty uncommon, usually kidney patients aren't supposed to drink them, but like you said, under some conditions they are helpful. Especially after surgery! I had always heard that sports drinks were overused and were a sugary mess and I never let my kids have them, so it was kind of weird to suddenly have a cabinet completely full of Gatorade! But like a lot of things, they are sometimes misunderstood, and they have their place.

Did you find out what Ricky did that was so funny?


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

mudpuppymama said:


> The whole water filtration issue is totally confusing and everybody has different opinions. For example, some say reverse osmosis is wonderful. Others say it is bad because it removes everything...both good and bad. We just use a Berkey which does not cost much and supposedly good, however many people will not agree with this either. And Popi pointed out once they are illegal in California. However, there are tons of things in California that are illegal that are considered fine elsewhere (no offense to California Popi) but this is true. As far as the hospital not having a few bottles of water on hand, that seems extreme. I was not talking about environmental aspects. I just meant I avoid it because of the leaching of plastic chemicals into the water that I do not want my dogs or me ingesting.


It IS really confusing! We did get a water softener, which is strangely not super popular here in spite of how hard the water is. I think people are just used to it, but it destroyed our washing machine at our old house so it wasn't even negotiable. I really wanted a comprehensive/combination treatment system that included both, but i felt like I couldn't find reliable information, it was all from the manufacturers of the systems.

I knew what you meant about the plastic, I don't know why it just reminded me of the hospital 

I remember reading years ago that the health dangers from leaching plastic are from hard plastic, like baby bottles, sippy cups, and plastic dishes/food storage containers. That's why I started buying metal water bottles for my kids. I still use plastic in my kitchen, but to me the long term risks are different when it's in direct contact with water my kids are drinking all day, every day. I thought that disposable water bottles, and other plastic food packaging, is made from a different kind of plastic. I haven't stayed up to date on that, and I'm not completely sure I'm ready to hear it if the plastics my fridge are slowly killing me. I have tried to minimize plastic as part of reducing our waste, but health reasons are important, too.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

morriscsps said:


> we have a whole house filtering system for our well water. It tasted awful before and my hair turned green. The filter system helped with the taste but the plumber claims that the individual pipes to our bathroom have excess flux and that is what is turning my hair green. uh huh.. sure. I did think that there was less eye crusties.


We don't have well water, but when we moved to our house current house, DD and my hair changed colors. It wasn't green though! It was subtle, but even DH noticed. I think the minerals are probably different compared to where we lived before, and the softened water made the clarifying shampoo work better.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> It IS really confusing! We did get a water softener, which is strangely not super popular here in spite of how hard the water is. I think people are just used to it, but it destroyed our washing machine at our old house so it wasn't even negotiable. I really wanted a comprehensive/combination treatment system that included both, but i felt like I couldn't find reliable information, it was all from the manufacturers of the systems.
> 
> I knew what you meant about the plastic, I don't know why it just reminded me of the hospital
> 
> I remember reading years ago that the health dangers from leaching plastic are from hard plastic, like baby bottles, sippy cups, and plastic dishes/food storage containers. That's why I started buying metal water bottles for my kids. I still use plastic in my kitchen, but to me the long term risks are different when it's in direct contact with water my kids are drinking all day, every day. I thought that disposable water bottles, and other plastic food packaging, is made from a different kind of plastic. I haven't stayed up to date on that, and I'm not completely sure I'm ready to hear it if the plastics my fridge are slowly killing me. I have tried to minimize plastic as part of reducing our waste, but health reasons are important, too.


I am not up on the latest plastic research either. I think they are trying to come up with better alternatives. I constantly look for ways to reduce my plastic usage but I don't lose sleep over it. I do try my best to avoid drinking anything that has been stored in plastic containers. I don't think food stored in the refrigerator or freezer in plastic is so bad. It is the heating up of the plastic container that seems problematic. But I am definitely not an expert on this.


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## MMoore (Aug 20, 2020)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Yes, that's true. At least in my area, this type of water filtration system is thousands of dollars. I don't remember the details, but when we bought our house I looked into it and because of the composition of our water, typical filters would improve the taste to some degree but won't actually "fix" our water. It requires a more advanced filtration system, which you probably know a lot more about. There is water bottled in aluminum (I think?) if plastic is a concern.
> 
> As a side rant, I was so mad about water bottles when DS was last in the hospital. I accidentally left my water bottle all filled up on the counter at home, and when I went to the cafeteria to buy one they don't sell them for environmental reasons. I was SO MAD. MYbe I was emotional and I still can't see rationally. I use a reusable water bottle 90% of the time. But they're going to judge me and refuse to sell me a disposable water bottle in a hospital of all places? What about the families inthe emergency room, who weren't expecting to be without water? And then some 20 year old tried to mansplain why they weren't there and I just couldn't believe it. Yeah, I know about the environment, I haven't been living under a rock, ugh. I don't need to go down the list of all the changes I've made since we bought our house, or flash around my Hydroflask, I just need a water bottle in a pinch. Also, I don't really have a hydroflask, I have the dishwasher safe brand i spent a lot of time researching so that our family has interchangeable replacement lids we can buy individually, lol. And my dishwasher is energy efficient. I mean, no wonder people get so defensive about this stuff!


We've reduced our plastic considerably over the last few years, and we all have reusable cups, but I still keep some bottled water around. If I'm in the car and don't have water in the cup holder, I'm instantly thirsty and have to have water RIGHT NOW! I'm pretty good about remembering to put my Yeti in the car, but life happens and....you do what you need to do!

I was buying a few small stocking stuffers at our local farmer's market before Christmas, and there were several glass little jars of salts and honey. The woman checking me out wrapped each one in a separate plastic bag, and then all together in another plastic bag. I was cringing the whole time, but there was a scariness about her that reminded me of a dreaded middle school teacher I had had years ago, and I couldn't bring myself to say anything!


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Scout had tear staining from just one eye. Someone on HF recommended Proviable DC. We starting giving one capsule a day for about three years which did clear up the staining. I'm no longer giving it to them, but adding a little yogurt to each meal. So far no more tear staining.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

ShamaMama said:


> We thought tear staining was actually caused by yeast, not protein, and that the product we use prevents the yeast from growing. I just did a google search however and found this article.
> 
> We swear by this product to prevent tear stains:
> 
> ...


SHAMA hair is black around her eyes. How do you have a problem with Tear Staining?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Jackie, we use either distilled or Britta water to clean his face. I avoid using tap water because it has so many undesirable chemicals and minerals in it. Ricky drinks only Britta filtered water and we change the filters frequently. Ricky frequently preens himself with his tongue. We don't have any saliva staining anywhere since we changed to Britta from tap water.
> 
> It is my opinion that the Britta filter is superior to Zero Water despite what their advertisement says (read Consumer Reports comparison).
> 
> ...


We should also make it clear that water filtered in this way is VERY different than distilled water. Brita filters are great to remove chlorine and many impurities, colors and improve taste, but they do not change the hardness or TDS of water the way distilling does. Brita filters are basically a carbon filter. Distilled water is COMPLETELY pure, with NOTHING in it but H2O molecules. It is made by boiling off the water and recapturing the water vapor (steam) while leaving all the solids behind. (sorry, but in the aquarium world, this stuff is very important  )

I can't really weigh in on how either works for tear stains. I used a probiotic product called Proviable DC that was recommended to me when Panda had pretty bad tear staining as an adolescent. It SEEMED to be a "miracle cure" at the time, but after she'd been on it for about a year, I stopped it just to see what would happen, and the staining never returned. So NOW I wonder whether it was really the Proviable that worked, or whether her staining was caused by teething (which is pretty common too) and would have gone away simply with time and patience. The old thing about "correlation is not necessarily causation".  I was all excited about Proviable at the time... now I'm a little more cautious. What I CAN say is, it's just a probiotic, and it can't POSSIBLY hurt your dog, so it's certainly worth a try!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Yes, that's true. At least in my area, this type of water filtration system is thousands of dollars. I don't remember the details, but when we bought our house I looked into it and because of the composition of our water, typical filters would improve the taste to some degree but won't actually "fix" our water. It requires a more advanced filtration system, which you probably know a lot more about. There is water bottled in aluminum (I think?) if plastic is a concern.
> 
> As a side rant, I was so mad about water bottles when DS was last in the hospital. I accidentally left my water bottle all filled up on the counter at home, and when I went to the cafeteria to buy one they don't sell them for environmental reasons. I was SO MAD. MYbe I was emotional and I still can't see rationally. I use a reusable water bottle 90% of the time. But they're going to judge me and refuse to sell me a disposable water bottle in a hospital of all places? What about the families inthe emergency room, who weren't expecting to be without water? And then some 20 year old tried to mansplain why they weren't there and I just couldn't believe it. Yeah, I know about the environment, I haven't been living under a rock, ugh. I don't need to go down the list of all the changes I've made since we bought our house, or flash around my Hydroflask, I just need a water bottle in a pinch. Also, I don't really have a hydroflask, I have the dishwasher safe brand i spent a lot of time researching so that our family has interchangeable replacement lids we can buy individually, lol. And my dishwasher is energy efficient. I mean, no wonder people get so defensive about this stuff!


LOL! Have I told you I love you?!?!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> The whole water filtration issue is totally confusing and everybody has different opinions. For example, some say reverse osmosis is wonderful. Others say it is bad because it removes everything...both good and bad. We just use a Berkey which does not cost much and supposedly good, however many people will not agree with this either. And Popi pointed out once they are illegal in California. However, there are tons of things in California that are illegal that are considered fine elsewhere (no offense to California Popi) but this is true. As far as the hospital not having a few bottles of water on hand, that seems extreme. I was not talking about environmental aspects. I just meant I avoid it because of the leaching of plastic chemicals into the water that I do not want my dogs or me ingesting.


We DO use RO in our house but our town has ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE water. it is truly not drinkable. Several days of the month it is not clean enough to bathe in, and it is hardly ever safe to do water changes on my aquariums without killing fish. When you look up, on public record, what is IN our town water, it is absolutely horrifying.

There are LOTS of trace element supplements that you can use to add back the necessary minerals to either distilled or RO/DI water (RO/DI water is "purer" than straight RO, which does not remove EVERYTHING, but does remove well over 90% of dissolved solids if you are properly maintaining the system) This is the one we are currently using to reconstitute our RO water. For drinking water for us and the dogs, I make 5 Gallons at a time. For plants and aquariums, I store it in 1-gallon disposable water bottles just because they are easier to carry around the house. We actually converted our spare shower into a water processing station where we have the RO filter hooked up and store the extra bottles. But I know not all of you live in 3rd world USA.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Because California bans so many products doesn't mean they are incorrect. Other States wait for Californicans to fund the research with their taxes and then other States tag along with no cost to them. California found that the Berkey filter does not meet the minimum standards for lead transmission leached into the filtered water as a result of its design. The Berkey Company said they were going to ignore those standards because it would cost too much to fix their design. Who knows who's right, but that is a gamble I have chosen not to take.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


I would suspect that they are right because this, too, is just another carbon filter. If it's not a "tight fit" where the water is pretty much FORCED through the carbon, it's not going to take lead out. But carbon STILL doesn't take a LOT of other problematic substances out of water...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

morriscsps said:


> we have a whole house filtering system for our well water. It tasted awful before and my hair turned green. The filter system helped with the taste but the plumber claims that the individual pipes to our bathroom have excess flux and that is what is turning my hair green. uh huh.. sure. I did think that there was less eye crusties.


The problem with most whole-house systems is that they replace calcium ions with sodium ions (or most of them do) so they are better for the plumbing and the wash (soap works better) but they are bad for anyone who has a problem with sodium, and they are TERRIBLE for sensitive houseplants and aquariums, where fish and plants are more sensitive to sodium than they are to calcium. Some (more expensive) systems use potassium rather than sodium, but most consumers don't even know they can ask for these.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Heather's said:


> Scout had tear staining from just one eye. Someone on HF recommended Proviable DC. We starting giving one capsule a day for about three years which did clear up the staining. I'm no longer giving it to them, but adding a little yogurt to each meal. So far no more tear staining.


Oh, I'm glad to hear it worked for you too! So maybe it WASN'T just a coincidence with Panda! LOL!


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Heather's said:


> Scout had tear staining from just one eye. Someone on HF recommended Proviable DC. We starting giving one capsule a day for about three years which did clear up the staining. I'm no longer giving it to them, but adding a little yogurt to each meal. So far no more tear staining.





krandall said:


> Oh, I'm glad to hear it worked for you too! So maybe it WASN'T just a coincidence with Panda! LOL!


It doesn't do a thing for Willow's staining. She's been on it ever since it was once recommended by someone on this forum. She is still taking it just for the probiotic value.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> It is my opinion that the Britta filter is superior to Zero Water despite what their advertisement says (read Consumer Reports comparison).
> 
> Ricky's Popi


I'll have to try and find the comparison. I was under the impression that the Zero was the better of the two. I subscribe to Consumer Reports but I don't remember seeing an article on water filters. Gotta do some research I guess.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

I think Scout was about five years old when I started giving Proviable DC. I gave it to him for about two years. The tearing did stop after a few months. I'm not sure if the staining would have eventually cleared up on it's own. Possibly the yogurt is now helping? I thought about using filtered water, but are water is supposed to be very good and comes from Yosemite's Hetch Hetchy Reservoir.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> I would suspect that they are right because this, too, is just another carbon filter. If it's not a "tight fit" where the water is pretty much FORCED through the carbon, it's not going to take lead out. But carbon STILL doesn't take a LOT of other problematic substances out of water...


Here are a couple links to Berkey information. Supposedly they do not bother with NSF certification because the NFS standards are not very strict and they have done independent testing to much more robust levels.

Are the Black Berkey® Purification Elements NSF certified? ? Berkey Knowledge Base

Black Berkey® Purification Elements Test Results ? Berkey Knowledge Base

NOTE: Everyone please draw your own conclusions and do not shoot the messenger.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> We DO use RO in our house but our town has ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE water. it is truly not drinkable. Several days of the month it is not clean enough to bathe in, and it is hardly ever safe to do water changes on my aquariums without killing fish. When you look up, on public record, what is IN our town water, it is absolutely horrifying.
> 
> There are LOTS of trace element supplements that you can use to add back the necessary minerals to either distilled or RO/DI water (RO/DI water is "purer" than straight RO, which does not remove EVERYTHING, but does remove well over 90% of dissolved solids if you are properly maintaining the system) This is the one we are currently using to reconstitute our RO water. For drinking water for us and the dogs, I make 5 Gallons at a time. For plants and aquariums, I store it in 1-gallon disposable water bottles just because they are easier to carry around the house. We actually converted our spare shower into a water processing station where we have the RO filter hooked up and store the extra bottles. But I know not all of you live in 3rd world USA.


Karen, is that city water or well water? Yikes.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> The problem with most whole-house systems is that they replace calcium ions with sodium ions (or most of them do) so they are better for the plumbing and the wash (soap works better) but they are bad for anyone who has a problem with sodium, and they are TERRIBLE for sensitive houseplants and aquariums, where fish and plants are more sensitive to sodium than they are to calcium. Some (more expensive) systems use potassium rather than sodium, but most consumers don't even know they can ask for these.


We use potassium chloride in ours and it is SUPER expensive. I thought softeners also take out magnesium and many people are deficient in that already. At our new house we will have a well...not sure what is in store for us there but a water softener probably will be essential.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Yeah, I know about the environment, I haven't been living under a rock, ugh. I don't need to go down the list of all the changes I've made since we bought our house, or flash around my Hydroflask, I just need a water bottle in a pinch. Also, I don't really have a hydroflask, I have the dishwasher safe brand i spent a lot of time researching so that our family has interchangeable replacement lids we can buy individually, lol. And my dishwasher is energy efficient. I mean, no wonder people get so defensive about this stuff!


 J, thank you for all the changes you have made in your lifestyle to address climate change. I have background, education, and experience in climate change. It is real and we have already experienced changes that are irreversible, for example loss of species (plant and animal), loss of polar ice cap resulting in oceanic changes to sea level and currents, increased ambient temperature, proliferation of non-biodegradable waste materials, to name some of the more important issues. Like you, I have made changes in my lifestyle that has resulted in considerable expense to me personally. But I'd rather be poor than dead as a result of this environmental stuff (and climate change is deadly when coupled with cyclonic winds, flooding, earthquakes, and fires in undeveloped areas).

California again leads the way. On January 1, 2020 all new construction (residential, commercial, and industrial) must include approved photovoltaic solar panels. Many new and old apartment complexes must be retrofitted with electric charging stations for cars, the State provides generous rebates for electric car purchases (BEVs, battery electric vehicles are taking over California highways), fossil fuel public utilities are being mothballed and phased out, plastic bags are being banned at the stores, water in plastic bottles are being phased out; and this is just the beginning of the changes that will be required. The US will rejoin the Paris Climate Accord later this month. I am optimistic that Americans will reclaim their position as "exceptional" leaders as we tackle the challenges of climate change that faces the world.

So take heart, we can do this together, one nation undivided. :usa2:

Ricky's Popi


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

krandall said:


> I would suspect that they are right because this, too, is just another carbon filter. If it's not a "tight fit" where the water is pretty much FORCED through the carbon, it's not going to take lead out. But carbon STILL doesn't take a LOT of other problematic substances out of water...


That makes sense to me for installation in older homes where lead might be a risk but I'm under the impression anything built in the last 15 years or so, maybe even before that, is unlikely to need lead filtration because of modern plumbing standards. Is lead a problem in a lot of places still?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> It doesn't do a thing for Willow's staining. She's been on it ever since it was once recommended by someone on this forum. She is still taking it just for the probiotic value.


Just goes to the "the same thing doesn't work for every dog" thing...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Heather's said:


> I think Scout was about five years old when I started giving Proviable DC. I gave it to him for about two years. The tearing did stop after a few months. I'm not sure if the staining would have eventually cleared up on it's own. Possibly the yogurt is now helping? I thought about using filtered water, but are water is supposed to be very good and comes from Yosemite's Hetch Hetchy Reservoir.


Well, if you didn't start it until he was five, it CERTAINLY wasn't caused by teething in his case!


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> That makes sense to me for installation in older homes where lead might be a risk but I'm under the impression anything built in the last 15 years or so, maybe even before that, is unlikely to need lead filtration because of modern plumbing standards. Is lead a problem in a lot of places still?


Yes and no. California banned the Berkey because the State could not realistically control where a Berkey filter was going to be installed.

Pretty much all new construction in California uses PEX tubing for plumbing water supply. PEX is considered the new standard replacing PVC (older, more expensive technology). Other States are starting to catch on but adoption outside of California has been slow.

Ricky's Popi


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Yes and no. California banned the Berkey because the State could not realistically control where a Berkey filter was going to be installed.
> 
> Pretty much all new construction in California uses PEX tubing for plumbing water supply. PEX is considered the new standard replacing PVC (older, more expensive technology). Other States are starting to catch on but adoption outside of California has been slow.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


The house we are building here in Missouri has PEX pipes. However, some feel that PEX can leach chemicals into the water...sigh...guess we can't win. We will be filtering our drinking water at our new house to be on the safe side.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Karen, is that city water or well water? Yikes.


We live in a small town the TOWN has 5 wells (only 3 of which are currently working. So it is municipal water" but far from "city" water. We are not hooked into the Metropolitan District water supply, and I do not believe we can be at this point. The town has allowed too much construction in a town that was considered rural when we moved here and is now basically a sprawling suburb with a few patches of farm land. We have paid for a HUGE tax override for a new well and to rebuild the water treatment plant attached to the well closest to us (which has the biggest problems, which is why WE have the worst trouble... Our property actually abuts the water department) but the proposed "fix" won't be finished (IF they finish on time, and you know how THAT goes) until 2025.

We have CONSIDERED digging our own well, but that is a frightfully expensive proposition, and we would still have to pay the same taxes toward the town water system.

We might as well live in Love Canal. The only good thing is that I can afford to run an RO system and have enough knowledge of water chemistry to be able to do it. Pretty much everyone in town drinks bottled water. We keep bottles of RO water in every bathroom for brushing teeth, and we always use the toilet first in the morning and make sure the water runs reasonably clean before turning on the shower. STILL not a totally sure bet, because we are so far from the street... there is a lot of water in the pipe from the street. So it can LOOK OK when you start your shower and then turn brown. Water like is in the faucet photo is kinda yucky, but won't kill you to shower with. There are occasional days where it is SO bad that you literally get covered with mud when you try to rinse off in the shower and have to scrape it off with the towel. On THOSE days, obviously, we DON'T shower if we know ahead of time! THAT level of grossness has only caught us flat-footed once. We've learned to manage it!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> We use potassium chloride in ours and it is SUPER expensive. I thought softeners also take out magnesium and many people are deficient in that already. At our new house we will have a well...not sure what is in store for us there but a water softener probably will be essential.


Yes, you are right, they do. I didn't know how much chemistry people wanted to get into.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> We live in a small town the TOWN has 5 wells (only 3 of which are currently working. So it is municipal water" but far from "city" water. We are not hooked into the Metropolitan District water supply, and I do not believe we can be at this point. The town has allowed too much construction in a town that was considered rural when we moved here and is now basically a sprawling suburb with a few patches of farm land. We have paid for a HUGE tax override for a new well and to rebuild the water treatment plant attached to the well closest to us (which has the biggest problems, which is why WE have the worst trouble... Our property actually abuts the water department) but the proposed "fix" won't be finished (IF they finish on time, and you know how THAT goes) until 2025.
> 
> We have CONSIDERED digging our own well, but that is a frightfully expensive proposition, and we would still have to pay the same taxes toward the town water system.
> 
> We might as well live in Love Canal. The only good thing is that I can afford to run an RO system and have enough knowledge of water chemistry to be able to do it. Pretty much everyone in town drinks bottled water. We keep bottles of RO water in every bathroom for brushing teeth, and we always use the toilet first in the morning and make sure the water runs reasonably clean before turning on the shower. STILL not a totally sure bet, because we are so far from the street... there is a lot of water in the pipe from the street. So it can LOOK OK when you start your shower and then turn brown. Water like is in the faucet photo is kinda yucky, but won't kill you to shower with. There are occasional days where it is SO bad that you literally get covered with mud when you try to rinse off in the shower and have to scrape it off with the towel. On THOSE days, obviously, we DON'T shower if we know ahead of time! THAT level of grossness has only caught us flat-footed once. We've learned to manage it!


Wow that is interesting. We built a well at our new house which cost $9,000. I assume many things impact the cost of a well. Our well is about 210 feet deep. Todd's parents live on our same property out there and our water will likely be similar to theirs. Theirs is very hard but otherwise good. We will still filter it anyway for drinking. We plan to have it tested.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> That makes sense to me for installation in older homes where lead might be a risk but I'm under the impression anything built in the last 15 years or so, maybe even before that, is unlikely to need lead filtration because of modern plumbing standards. Is lead a problem in a lot of places still?


We live in New England where many houses were built in the 1700's and 1800's. Many sections of the waterpipes in the ground are very old too. They put a phosphate based buffer in tap water in areas where lead is especially likely to be problematic in the street pipes, and this settles out and coats the pipes. Folks in the western parts of the country tend to forget how old much of our infrastructure is. Our town pre-dates the revolutionary war. 

That said, lead is not the problem. We had several manufacturing facilities sprinkled through the town in the 1950's that had chemical tanks either sitting on or buried in the ground. These tanks corroded and there is contamination in the water. Now this is "within Federal limits". The problem is, Federal limits are awfully darned high.

Some of these sites were Super Fund sites and have been cleaned up, while others are still slated to be cleaned up when money becomes available. But the damage has been done to the aquifer. This stuff doesn't go away easily.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> That makes sense to me for installation in older homes where lead might be a risk but I'm under the impression anything built in the last 15 years or so, maybe even before that, is unlikely to need lead filtration because of modern plumbing standards. Is lead a problem in a lot of places still?


I would say lead is the least of the problems you can encounter with city water. Where I live you can get water reports for your area that list the possible contaminants in the water and if they meet acceptable levels. Our water fails for many of them.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> I would say lead is the least of the problems you can encounter with city water. Where I live you can get water reports for your area that list the possible contaminants in the water and if they meet acceptable levels. Our water fails for many of them.


For anyone who wants to know what's REALLY in your water, here is a good site: https://www.ewg.org/tapwater/

The charts below show what's in my tap water and why I chose RO as the "remedy"


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

mudpuppymama said:


> The house we are building here in Missouri has PEX pipes. However, some feel that PEX can leach chemicals into the water...sigh...guess we can't win.


Yes, the lead pipe coalition is opposed to PEX plumbing! :laugh:

Another interesting observation, the Coal Museum in West Virginia 
is now powered by solar panels on its roof! :laugh:

Whether discussing water filters or vaccinosis, people (POPI) are going to believe whatever they are going to believe.

Ricky's Popi


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> For anyone who wants to know what's REALLY in your water, here is a good site: https://www.ewg.org/tapwater/
> 
> The charts below show what's in my tap water and why I chose RO as the "remedy"


Great link Karen. The EWG is also great if anyone wants to check chemicals in other things such as personal care products and household cleaning products. They give a detailed list of each ingredient and how safe it is. Not all products are out there but a fair amount.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> The charts below show what's in my tap water and why I chose RO as the "remedy"


As you know Karen, Momi and Popi's hobby is cruising on cruise ships (let's not get distracted by discussing the environmental footprint of a cruise ship. I have run the numbers and the results are surprising). Many passengers refuse to drink the ship's manufactured water. They fight vigorously for plastic bottle water which is available at extra cost (usually expensive designer water named after a country). I had dinner with the ships Environmental Officer one evening. A ship uses an industrial desalinization equipment to produce potable water. It is a type of RO system. Water is only manufactured no closer than the 3 mile international boundary. Water is NEVER manufactured in port. That water is too polluted and gums up their equipment resulting in costly repairs. One study done by a scientist with too much time on their hands showed that the ships water was purer with fewer contaminants and nasties than the designer water sold on the ship!

Ricky's Popi


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Yes, the lead pipe coalition is opposed to PEX plumbing! :laugh:
> 
> Another interesting observation, the Coal Museum in West Virginia
> is now powered by solar panels on its roof! :laugh:
> ...


I am not aware of anyone who wants to use lead pipes. I know there is a debate about copper pipes. Probably a good idea to filter no matter what pipes you use. As with many things...some filtering is better than no filtering and some filtering may be better than other filtering. And for certain...no one is going to agree what is best.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> As you know Karen, Momi and Popi's hobby is cruising on cruise ships (let's not get distracted by discussing the environmental footprint of a cruise ship. I have run the numbers and the results are surprising). Many passengers refuse to drink the ship's manufactured water. They fight vigorously for plastic bottle water which is available at extra cost (usually expensive designer water named after a country). I had dinner with the ships Environmental Officer one evening. A ship uses an industrial desalinization equipment to produce potable water. It is a type of RO system. Water is only manufactured no closer than the 3 mile international boundary. Water is NEVER manufactured in port. That water is too polluted and gums up their equipment resulting in costly repairs. One study done by a scientist with too much time on their hands showed that the ships water was purer with fewer contaminants and nasties than the designer water sold on the ship!
> 
> Ricky's Popi


If they are running it through an RO system, it would be safe and taste good, even if they took it closer to shore... it would just kill their membranes and need replacement much faster! People are dumb...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> I am not aware of anyone who wants to use lead pipes. I know there is a debate about copper pipes. Probably a good idea to filter no matter what pipes you use. As with many things...some filtering is better than no filtering and some filtering may be better than other filtering. And for certain...no one is going to agree what is best.


It's not the pipes that are lead. The pipes around here are actually iron. Lead pipes would be WAY too soft. But they used lead to solder them together. And THAT leaches into the water, especially if the pH is low (acidic) so they add quick lime to raise the pH temporarily. And yeah, we've dealt with copper here too. When our kids were little, we were dealing with 3ppm copper in our tap water. Other people occasionally have problems with snails in their aquariums. Snails died ON CONTACT with my tap water. They were dead before they hit the bottom of the tank. (Invertebrates of many kinds are very sensitive to copper)


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

mudpuppymama said:


> I would say lead is the least of the problems you can encounter with city water. Where I live you can get water reports for your area that list the possible contaminants in the water and if they meet acceptable levels. Our water fails for many of them.


I was curious because of the water filter issue. If it's because of lead, I don't see how it's different than any other appliance that can only be applied in certain situations. That's what contractors and inspections are for.

I'm completely on board with serious changes in the way we handle environmental issues, and I do realize it's urgent. But it's kind of concerning to me when we're completely banning water bottles while people can't drink their own tap water. There must be ways to improve water quality, and make it more accessible, so people aren't dependent on filtered or bottled water. And because I can't let go of my original rant, especially now that water is on my mind, people should have access to single use water bottles in a hospital during a pandemic 

I remember my parents drilling a well for landscaping irrigation and the cost was offset in a short amount of time. My sister has well water for her whole house and it's expensive to maintain. It's an older system so I'm not sure it was designed well, and I don't know how much of the cost is filtration, etc. But at least then you have control of the whole system.

Did you say you are considering a different type of system in your new house? It seems like the system you're using would still work in new construction since you're not dealing with old pipes, but doesn't it take up a lot of room? You must be getting close to moving soon, I bet that's exciting!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I was curious because of the water filter issue. If it's because of lead, I don't see how it's different than any other appliance that can only be applied in certain situations. That's what contractors and inspections are for.
> 
> I'm completely on board with serious changes in the way we handle environmental issues, and I do realize it's urgent. But it's kind of concerning to me when we're completely banning water bottles while people can't drink their own tap water. There must be ways to improve water quality, and make it more accessible, so people aren't dependent on filtered or bottled water. And because I can't let go of my original rant, especially now that water is on my mind, people should have access to single use water bottles in a hospital during a pandemic
> 
> ...


The whole water thing is confusing to me. It does seem crazy to think we are scared of drinking our own tap water! For our new house, we will probably continue to use our Berkey. However, we may decide to switch to RO or something else after we test the water. The water from Todd's parents well is near ours and it is good except it is hard and they need a water softener. The house is getting close but taking forever. It has been more than a year. The problem is that it is a very rural area and difficult to get workers. For example, it took 3 months to get a drywall guy to come out. But definitely getting closer so that is exciting.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

mudpuppymama said:


> The house we are building here in Missouri has PEX pipes. However, some feel that PEX can leach chemicals into the water...sigh...guess we can't win. We will be filtering our drinking water at our new house to be on the safe side.


That's what happened with the BPA in baby bottles and sippy cups. The replacements are considered just as dangerous, and some of the studies that first labeled it as unsafe have since been disputed. Fortunately when this was really being publicized, my kids were old enough that I just got rid of our "kiddie dishes" and restocked the adult, breakable dishes, so I didn't have to figure that one out.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

mudpuppymama said:


> The whole water thing is confusing to me. It does seem crazy to think we are scared of drinking our own tap water! For our new house, we will probably continue to use our Berkey. However, we may decide to switch to RO or something else after we test the water. The water from Todd's parents well is near ours and it is good except it is hard and they need a water softener. The house is getting close but taking forever. It has been more than a year. The problem is that it is a very rural area and difficult to get workers. For example, it took 3 months to get a drywall guy to come out. But definitely getting closer so that is exciting.


Just wanted to add that another reason our house is taking so long is due to COVID. For example, the carpenter that we finally got came down with it. He was out for awhile but better now, although he is all backed up. I have been waiting for my appliances for more than 4 months. That is holding up the countertops because they want the cooktop before they cut them. Countertops are holding up sinks and faucets! Amazing how many dependencies there are. The appliance company said their factories were closed for a few months and while everyone was home they decided to remodel! So they were swamped with orders. On top of it all, we could never find a general contractor so guess who is serving it that capacity? Yours truly...who does not know what she is doing and has never built a house before!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> It's not the pipes that are lead. The pipes around here are actually iron. Lead pipes would be WAY too soft. But they used lead to solder them together. And THAT leaches into the water, especially if the pH is low (acidic) so they add quick lime to raise the pH temporarily. And yeah, we've dealt with copper here too. When our kids were little, we were dealing with 3ppm copper in our tap water. Other people occasionally have problems with snails in their aquariums. Snails died ON CONTACT with my tap water. They were dead before they hit the bottom of the tank. (Invertebrates of many kinds are very sensitive to copper)


I had no clue about pipes at all. I know our current house has copper. They told me they were using PEX for the new house. I didn't really question them but just did a little research on copper and PEX. It seems each type can leach things into the water per what I read. Perhaps it also matters how old the pipes are? Maybe they leach more? We were glad about the PEX because i understand they are a little more forgiving as far as bursting. Supposedly the phalates from the PEX can be filtered out if I understand correctly. I think it is best to filter water anyway and we are used to doing that.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

mudpuppymama said:


> The water from Todd's parents well is near ours and it is good except it is hard and they need a water softener.


Please be aware that softened water should not be used for drinking water because of high sodium content (and other minerals) during softening (California law). We had a water softener at a previous home. It was plumbed to bypass the kitchen sink as well irrigation for landscaping. It was nice for bathing and washing clothes and the car, but little else.

Ricky's Popi


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Please be aware that softened water should not be used for drinking water because of high sodium content (and other minerals) during softening (California law). We had a water softener at a previous home. It was plumbed to bypass the kitchen sink as well irrigation for landscaping. It was nice for bathing and washing clothes and the car, but little else.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


Agreed...that is best. However, we use potassium chloride vs sodium chloride to soften the water. We moved here 16 years ago and have been drinking softened water for all those years without issue. I think softened water is similar to RO water...many of the good minerals are removed. The ions are exchanged with the water softener ions. I assume the sodium chloride can be problematic but potassium chloride is better for people and the environment. We do filter it after it is softened but I don't know if that helps with softened water. The minerals will still be missing. One of the main issues with water softeners is the backwash when it "cleans itself" vs. the actual sodium in the water you are using. That is my understanding anyway.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> I had no clue about pipes at all. I know our current house has copper. They told me they were using PEX for the new house. I didn't really question them but just did a little research on copper and PEX. It seems each type can leach things into the water per what I read. Perhaps it also matters how old the pipes are? Maybe they leach more? We were glad about the PEX because i understand they are a little more forgiving as far as bursting. Supposedly the phalates from the PEX can be filtered out if I understand correctly. I think it is best to filter water anyway and we are used to doing that.


Unfortunately, we know about burst pipes too. 

Interestingly, newer copper pipes leach more copper than older ones do. You can mitigate the leaching to a large extent by allowing the water to run for a minute or so before using it for drinking or cooking. It's the water sitting in the pipes that collects it, not water just running through.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Agreed...that is best. However, we use potassium chloride vs sodium chloride to soften the water. We moved here 16 years ago and have been drinking softened water for all those years without issue. I think softened water is similar to RO water...many of the good minerals are removed. The ions are exchanged with the water softener ions. I assume the sodium chloride can be problematic but potassium chloride is better for people and the environment. We do filter it after it is softened but I don't know if that helps with softened water. The minerals will still be missing. One of the main issues with water softeners is the backwash when it "cleans itself" vs. the actual sodium in the water you are using. That is my understanding anyway.


No, it's really nothing like RO water. RO actually filters out almost ALL dissolved solids through a very fine permeable membrane. There is NOTHING left. Water "softeners" exchange one ion (either sodium or potassium) for another (either calcium or magnesium). The removal of the calcium and magnesium make the water less "hard", so that soap lathers better, but it is a direct exchange of ions. It does not change the total dissolved solids at all.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> Interestingly, newer copper pipes leach more copper than older ones do. You can mitigate the leaching to a large extent by allowing the water to run for a minute or so before using it for drinking or cooking. It's the water sitting in the pipes that collects it, not water just running through.


As far as I know, copper pipes are no longer used in California for new construction for a number of reasons: high initial cost, copper being stolen from construction sites (ripped right out of the studs!), and environmental/health issues.

Because of water shortage in California, it is not recommended to run water for a while when using it as potable water. You will also see the cost of that practice in our water bill. Always something new.

Ricky's Popi


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> As far as I know, copper pipes are no longer used in California for new construction for a number of reasons: high initial cost, copper being stolen from construction sites (ripped right out of the studs!), and environmental/health issues.
> 
> Because of water shortage in California, it is not recommended to run water for a while when using it as potable water. You will also see the cost of that practice in our water bill. Always something new.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


It's not used in new construction here either, and all the newer plumbing runs in our house are PEX. (Including the replaced burst pipes. :wink: But again, this part of the country doesn't have NEARLY the amount of new construction tgat you folks have out west. And running the water is better than drinking that stuff. :wink:


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

The following article expresses how I feel about drinking softened water, right or wrong. Takeaway -

"The amount of sodium added to water from the water softening process depends on the hardness of the water supply. When very hard water (greater than 10 grains of hardness per gallon) is softened, between 20mg to 30mg of sodium is added to every 8 ounces of water dependent on the measured hardness. For comparison, an 8-ounce glass of low-fat milk contains about 120mg of sodium, a 12-ounce can of diet soda contains about 40mg, and an 8-ounce glass of orange juice contains about 25mg."

https://culliganmidmissouri.com/resources/water-quality/is-softened-water-safe-to-drink/

I believe people get too much sodium from eating processed foods.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> It's not used in new construction here either, and all the newer plumbing runs in our house are PEX. (Including the replaced burst pipes. :wink: But again, this part of the country doesn't have NEARLY the amount of new construction tgat you folks have out west. And running the water is better than drinking that stuff. :wink:


I would love to see how California enforces this law...

Oh I guess it is not a law but a recommendation. Well I can tell you what I would do with that.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Considering our water compared to the rest of the world, I think we are very lucky.

An estimated 801,000 children younger than 5 years of age perish from diarrhea each year, mostly in developing countries. This amounts to 11% of the 7.6 million deaths of children under the age of five and means that about 2,200 children are dying every day as a result of diarrheal diseases 4.

Unsafe drinking water, inadequate availability of water for hygiene, and lack of access to sanitation together contribute to about 88% of deaths from diarrheal diseases 1.

Worldwide, millions of people are infected with neglected tropical diseases (NTDs), many of which are water and/or hygiene-related, such as Guinea Worm Disease, Buruli Ulcer, Trachoma, and Schistosomiasis. These diseases are most often found in places with unsafe drinking water, poor sanitation, and insufficient hygiene practices 8, 9.
Worldwide, soil-transmitted helminths infect more than one billion people due to a lack of adequate sanitation 10.

Guinea Worm Disease (GWD) is an extremely painful parasitic infection spread through contaminated drinking water. GWD is characterized by spaghetti-like worms up to 1 meter in length slowly emerging from the human body through blisters on the skin anywhere on the body but usually on the lower legs or lower arms. Infection affects poor communities in remote parts of Africa that do not have safe water to drink. In 2015, 22 cases of Guinea Worm Disease were reported. Most of those cases were from Chad (41%) 11.

Trachoma is the world’s leading cause of preventable blindness and results from poor hygiene and sanitation. Approximately 41 million people suffer from active trachoma and nearly 10 million people are visually impaired or irreversibly blind as a result of trachoma 12. Trachoma infection can be prevented through increased facial cleanliness with soap and clean water, and improved sanitation.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> But again, this part of the country doesn't have NEARLY the amount of new construction tgat you folks have out west.


We currently have a housing shortage in California - the State with the 5th largest economy in the world (just replaced England that slipped a notch because of Brexit), very high taxes, copious regulations, and a socialistic State government - people, in general, are very happy living here. No inventory available for single family homes, new or used. DD2 just sold her townhouse in Orange County, near Disneyland, last month. Her realtor put an unrealistically high price on it. Buyers (6 of'm) got into a bidding war, the house sold in a week at 10% over the asking price! Lucky girl, huh? Nope! Now she is having trouble finding anything for sale at any price. Her house sold to a young engineer and family who works at SpaceX headquarters down the road. After the close of escrow, they sent her a note thanking her for selling to them.



> And running the water is better than drinking that stuff. :wink:


The problem is in California the local water district will shut your water off if you use too much. Momi rarely uses her dishwasher, just enough to keep the parts lubricated. I do drink some low calorie beer in aluminum, recyclable cans during the summer (50 cal./12 oz. can). Currently, we have no water filtration system other than a Britta pitcher. which keeps the three of us hydrated.

Ricky's Popi


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> We currently have a housing shortage in California - the State with the 5th largest economy in the world (just replaced England that slipped a notch because of Brexit), very high taxes, copious regulations, and a socialistic State government - people, in general, are very happy living here. No inventory available for single family homes, new or used. DD2 just sold her townhouse in Orange County, near Disneyland, last month. Her realtor put an unrealistically high price on it. Buyers (6 of'm) got into a bidding war, the house sold in a week at 10% over the asking price! Lucky girl, huh? Nope! Now she is having trouble finding anything for sale at any price. Her house sold to a young engineer and family who works at SpaceX headquarters down the road. After the close of escrow, they sent her a note thanking her for selling to them.
> 
> The problem is in California the local water district will shut your water off if you use too much. Momi rarely uses her dishwasher, just enough to keep the parts lubricated. I do drink some low calorie beer in aluminum, recyclable cans during the summer (50 cal./12 oz. can). Currently, we have no water filtration system other than a Britta pitcher. which keeps the three of us hydrated.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


You may want to research hand washing vs dishwasher water use. Again, no one will agree, but depending on how you wash dishes by hand, an energy efficient dishwasher can use less water.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

mudpuppymama said:


> You may want to research hand washing vs dishwasher water use. Again, no one will agree, but depending on how you wash dishes by hand, an energy efficient dishwasher can use less water.


you haven't seen Momi wash dishes by hand! With just the three of us, we don't use many dishes. and we do have a new, state of the art, energy efficient dishwasher. I wash our car with one gallon of distilled water by hand, no hose involved. I have the cleanest car on the road. Hey, it's California, the land of fruits, nuts, and flakes. Just delicious.

Ricky's Popi


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> The following article expresses how I feel about drinking softened water, right or wrong. Takeaway -
> 
> "The amount of sodium added to water from the water softening process depends on the hardness of the water supply. When very hard water (greater than 10 grains of hardness per gallon) is softened, between 20mg to 30mg of sodium is added to every 8 ounces of water dependent on the measured hardness. For comparison, an 8-ounce glass of low-fat milk contains about 120mg of sodium, a 12-ounce can of diet soda contains about 40mg, and an 8-ounce glass of orange juice contains about 25mg."
> 
> ...


True. I think it's mostly something that people on really restricted sodium diets need to watch. My Dad was in end stage heart failure due to cardio myopathy for 3 years. (don't ask me how he survived for 3 years in "end-stage"... he was a medical miracle. The Hospice people said he was the longest person on Hospice that they EVER had!) But back to sodium. We had to measure every BIT of sodium he took in. For HIM, it probably would have mattered. Not for healthy people who use table salt, and CERTAINLY not for ANYONE who eats at McDonalds. 

oh... and because we eat very few "processed foods" and less since Covid, I find most processed foods TERRIBLY salty. Even going out to eat, (well, for take-out  ) I often find that the amount of salt used in food preparation is too much for my tastes. I often ask them not to use any extra salt in the preparation of my food. Not because it will hurt me, I have no dietary salt restrictions, but because I don't like it. I save my salt consumption to chips and pretzles! (and I don't eat either of those very often, but if I'm going to eat salt, I want to main-line it!  )


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

mudpuppymama said:


> Considering our water compared to the rest of the world, I think we are very lucky.


1000%

I think it's important to think of all of these things in context, and U.S. water in context of the world's water is something to be thankful for.

I don't know anyone who bypasses their kitchen to soften water, and although I can see why someone would, I think that's very uncommon here. I do know someone who's kitchen tap has cold water as hard water, because she doesn't like the taste of soft water. But in the context of a healthy diet, the sodium in water is not a problem for us at all. At our house, we have trouble with watching our sugar, not sodium. To someone else, that amount of sodium could make a difference as they are meal planning. The two washing machines in 8 years, ruined dishwasher, broken ice machine, were a much bigger problem for us, and I was not doing that again in this house. I could see this being a case for a different type of water softener in many situations, though.

It's important to consider what we expose ourselves to, but it can quickly become a rabbit hole if we don't individualize the data. It helps me to think in terms of weighing risks and when those risks might be acceptable instead of trying to eliminate all risk. In terms of indoor residential dangers, my guess is unvented gas ranges are a bigger hazard to most people than their water. If we build another bathroom, we will install an additional hot water heater for a kitchenette, bathroom, and utility room downstairs, and at that time I would like to include a filtering system, and consider other options for water softening. But i see this as one of those, "it would be nice" things. If I moved and the water quality changed, that might go up or down on my priority list.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> It's important to consider what we expose ourselves to, but it can quickly become a rabbit hole if we don't individualize the data.


I agree and think that is true. The problem is most people aren't conscientious and don't individualize it. They will read something on the Internet, whether it be Havanese or social issues, and think if it is good for one person, it is good for everyone. Therefore, onerous regulations are developed to cover every possible scenario to avoid lawsuits from people who don't individualize data.



> In terms of indoor residential dangers, my guess is unvented gas ranges are a bigger hazard to most people than their water.


Oh goodness, there are people who still do that? That's a death wish.



> If we build another bathroom, we will install an additional hot water heater for a kitchenette, bathroom, and utility room downstairs,


Check out the new vented tankless hot water heaters. Saves money and water and space BUT they must be maintained on an annual basis to prevent "scaling." We have one for the whole house and love it! (a tank hot water heater should be maintained annually too.)

Ricky's Popi


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I agree and think that is true. The problem is most people aren't conscientious and don't individualize it. They will read something on the Internet, whether it be Havanese or social issues, and think if it is good for one person, it is good for everyone. Therefore, onerous regulations are developed to cover every possible scenario to avoid lawsuits from people who don't individualize data.
> 
> Oh goodness, there are people who still do that? That's a death wish.
> 
> ...


My in-laws have a tankless hot water heater that needed scaling annually. Since they installed a water softener several years ago, they have never had to scale it. Hard water is what contributes to the scaling.

Hard to win...pros and cons to everything. I am with EvaE1zabeth...bring on the water softener.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Since we are completely off topic here.......we do not have a fireplace in our house, wood burning fireplaces are banned in new construction in California due to air pollution and gas burning fireplaces are a waste of natural resources. Therefore, we play one of the Netflix Fireplaces on our large screen TV. Last night Momi asked me,"can we turn down the heat on that fireplace, it's getting hot in here!?" ound: I presumed she was kidding, but the mind can play strange tricks on us! We also have a fireplace in our car on the User Interface screen that is connected to the heater. It can get too hot in the car.

Ricky's Popi


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> True. I think it's mostly something that people on really restricted sodium diets need to watch. My Dad was in end stage heart failure due to cardio myopathy for 3 years. (don't ask me how he survived for 3 years in "end-stage"... he was a medical miracle. The Hospice people said he was the longest person on Hospice that they EVER had!) But back to sodium. We had to measure every BIT of sodium he took in. For HIM, it probably would have mattered. Not for healthy people who use table salt, and CERTAINLY not for ANYONE who eats at McDonalds.
> 
> oh... and because we eat very few "processed foods" and less since Covid, I find most processed foods TERRIBLY salty. Even going out to eat, (well, for take-out  ) I often find that the amount of salt used in food preparation is too much for my tastes. I often ask them not to use any extra salt in the preparation of my food. Not because it will hurt me, I have no dietary salt restrictions, but because I don't like it. I save my salt consumption to chips and pretzles! (and I don't eat either of those very often, but if I'm going to eat salt, I want to main-line it!  )


My understanding too is that the harder the water is the more ions are replaced with sodium. There are many levels of hard water I assume. Todd's parents are in their 80's and they have been using sodium chloride to soften their water for at least 15 years and have been drinking it. They are still healthy. But I am sure there are folks like your father who need to be stricter.

We don't eat out too often but the food is always so salty! For the rest of the day I am guzzling water.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> My in-laws have a tankless hot water heater that needed scaling annually. Since they installed a water softener several years ago, they have never had to scale it. Hard water is what contributes to the scaling.
> 
> Hard to win...pros and cons to everything. I am with EvaE1zabeth...bring on the water softener.


I would be VERY happy if our water "problem" was "just" hard water rather than dirty, toxic water. Our water is actually pretty soft. Most of NE is since most of NE aquifers run through either granite or deep quartz sand beds. This is part of the problem with toxicity... soft (often mildly acid) water picks things up more easily. They try to mitigate that with quick lime, but it's always a balancing act. How much to add depending on time of year, temperatures, usage, amount of water in the wells, what ELSE they are dealing with...


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> I would be VERY happy if our water "problem" was "just" hard water rather than dirty, toxic water. Our water is actually pretty soft. Most of NE is since most of NE aquifers run through either granite or deep quartz sand beds. This is part of the problem with toxicity... soft (often mildly acid) water picks things up more easily. They try to mitigate that with quick lime, but it's always a balancing act. How much to add depending on time of year, temperatures, usage, amount of water in the wells, what ELSE they are dealing with...


It is interesting to hear about other areas of the country. Yes, I consider ourselves lucky since the main problem where we are building is just hardness.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Okay Popi please do not freak out. But I have a six burner professional powerful gas stove that I have been using daily for over ten years without turning on the vent...and I am still alive! Hate that noisy thing.

We will also have a wood stove for backup at our new house to avoid frozen pipes and stay warm if the power goes out. 210 acres with LOTs of free firewood.

Netflix will not keep my pipes from freezing.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

mudpuppymama said:


> I would love to see how California enforces this law...
> 
> Oh I guess it is not a law but a recommendation. Well I can tell you what I would do with that.


Utah is perpetually in drought. Our water is metered and tiered. The lot is allocated a certain amount of water, based on acreage. The formula is complex and takes into account averages in the square footage of homes and the number of occupants. If the household uses below that amount, the cost is very low, I think there's actually a rebate. We don't waste water or leave it running, we have energy efficient appliances, DS often has to take more than one shower a day related to medical issues, and for the same reason we have more laundry than the average household. I think we've only gone into the second tier once. The tiers are conservative so going into the second tier doesn't mean you're destroying the earth or increase the cost per gallon but it'll be highlighted on the bill so people can track their usage. The third tier and up dramatically increase the cost per gallon. One family in our neighborhood posted they had just barely gone into the third tier and it doubled their water bill, and someone else responded that they had gotten a $600 water bill. I don't even want to know what tier that was. They definitely don't control whether or not people flush their lines before using the tap water, but I guess they'd pay for it if it's excessive. However, I don't think it uses much water to flush the standing water out of the line, it can't be much more than running to get hot water.

In our old house, because of the hard water, we had to flush the water heater at least twice a year. Now I'm curious how much water that wasted, and I'm so glad we don't have to do that here!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Utah is perpetually in drought. Our water is metered and tiered. The lot is allocated a certain amount of water, based on acreage. The formula is complex and takes into account averages in the square footage of homes and the number of occupants. If the household uses below that amount, the cost is very low, I think there's actually a rebate. We don't waste water or leave it running, we have energy efficient appliances, DS often has to take more than one shower a day related to medical issues, and for the same reason we have more laundry than the average household. I think we've only gone into the second tier once. The tiers are conservative so going into the second tier doesn't mean you're destroying the earth or increase the cost per gallon but it'll be highlighted on the bill so people can track their usage. The third tier and up dramatically increase the cost per gallon. One family in our neighborhood posted they had just barely gone into the third tier and it doubled their water bill, and someone else responded that they had gotten a $600 water bill. I don't even want to know what tier that was. They definitely don't control whether or not people flush their lines before using the tap water, but I guess they'd pay for it if it's excessive. However, I don't think it uses much water to flush the standing water out of the line, it can't be much more than running to get hot water.
> 
> In our old house, because of the hard water, we had to flush the water heater at least twice a year. Now I'm curious how much water that wasted, and I'm so glad we don't have to do that here!


Very interesting. Another illustration of how different things are in different areas of the country! We have more water than we know what to do with here in Missouri and we probably are more wasteful because of this.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Since we are completely off topic here.......we do not have a fireplace in our house, wood burning fireplaces are banned in new construction in California due to air pollution and gas burning fireplaces are a waste of natural resources. Therefore, we play one of the Netflix Fireplaces on our large screen TV. Last night Momi asked me,"can we turn down the heat on that fireplace, it's getting hot in here!?" ound: I presumed she was kidding, but the mind can play strange tricks on us!
> 
> Ricky's Popi


We like using the gas fireplace to heat the downstairs. When I'm upstairs I use the furnace. DH likes the The Netflix fireplace too! &#128522; Here he is in front of the fireplace and trying to hide from Scout and Truffles. They won't let him out of their sight and are always attached to him. &#129315;


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> The problem is in California the local water district will shut your water off if you use too much. Momi rarely uses her dishwasher, just enough to keep the parts lubricated. I do drink some low calorie beer in aluminum, recyclable cans during the summer (50 cal./12 oz. can). Currently, we have no water filtration system other than a Britta pitcher. which keeps the three of us hydrated.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


These are the consequences of humans choosing to heavily populate desert regions. I don't mean that in a snooty way. Humans are destroying the earth because there are too many of us in general. Humans, individually, have value. But there is no denying that there are too many of us.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Since we are completely off topic here.......we do not have a fireplace in our house, wood burning fireplaces are banned in new construction in California due to air pollution and gas burning fireplaces are a waste of natural resources. Therefore, we play one of the Netflix Fireplaces on our large screen TV. Last night Momi asked me,"can we turn down the heat on that fireplace, it's getting hot in here!?" ound: I presumed she was kidding, but the mind can play strange tricks on us! We also have a fireplace in our car on the User Interface screen that is connected to the heater. It can get too hot in the car.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


We have a fireplace in our dining room, which was originally the living room of the house. It started as a poorly vented wood fireplace that filled the house with smoke. A non-starter. Then Dave wanted to put a gas insert into it, and had a client that sold them, so we did that as an "alternative heat source" in case of electricity loss. Well, I guess it MIGHT have worked A LITTLE for that, but it has NEVER been used as a regular fireplace, and now we have a generator that keeps our furnace running if the electricity goes out. I wish we had removed it when we did one of our additions, except how would Santa have gotten in? How do all you westerners explain that to your kids!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Very interesting. Another illustration of how different things are in different areas of the country! We have more water than we know what to do with here in Missouri and we probably are more wasteful because of this.


Same here. We have water problems because of the antiquated equipment in our town. But we live in what is only a step away from temperate rainforest. Water is only an occasional late-summer problem. At least before climate change... it can happen a LITTLE more often now, especially because we ALSO have heavier population use. But for the most part, there's plenty of water.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Heather's said:


> We like using the gas fireplace to heat the downstairs. When I'm upstairs I use the furnace. DH likes the The Netflix fireplace too! &#128522; Here he is in front of the fireplace and trying to hide from Scout and Truffles. They won't let him out of their sight and are always attached to him. &#129315;
> View attachment 167746


Adorable!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> We have a fireplace in our dining room, which was originally the living room of the house. It started as a poorly vented wood fireplace that filled the house with smoke. A non-starter. Then Dave wanted to put a gas insert into it, and had a client that sold them, so we did that as an "alternative heat source" in case of electricity loss. Well, I guess it MIGHT have worked A LITTLE for that, but it has NEVER been used as a regular fireplace, and now we have a generator that keeps our furnace running if the electricity goes out. I wish we had removed it when we did one of our additions, except how would Santa have gotten in? How do all you westerners explain that to your kids!


We hope to eventually have a backup generator. The new wood stoves nowadays are much more efficient and clean burning than they used to be. It is nice to have backup systems when you live in a freezing climate.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Utah is perpetually in drought. Our water is metered and tiered. The lot is allocated a certain amount of water, based on acreage. The formula is complex and takes into account averages in the square footage of homes and the number of occupants. If the household uses below that amount, the cost is very low, I think there's actually a rebate. We don't waste water or leave it running, we have energy efficient appliances, DS often has to take more than one shower a day related to medical issues, and for the same reason we have more laundry than the average household. I think we've only gone into the second tier once. The tiers are conservative so going into the second tier doesn't mean you're destroying the earth or increase the cost per gallon but it'll be highlighted on the bill so people can track their usage. The third tier and up dramatically increase the cost per gallon. One family in our neighborhood posted they had just barely gone into the third tier and it doubled their water bill, and someone else responded that they had gotten a $600 water bill. I don't even want to know what tier that was. They definitely don't control whether or not people flush their lines before using the tap water, but I guess they'd pay for it if it's excessive. However, I don't think it uses much water to flush the standing water out of the line, it can't be much more than running to get hot water.
> 
> In our old house, because of the hard water, we had to flush the water heater at least twice a year. Now I'm curious how much water that wasted, and I'm so glad we don't have to do that here!


We are on city water now. Highest bill has been $20 a month. I think I am spoiled.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> These are the consequences of humans choosing to heavily populate desert regions. I don't mean that in a snooty way. Humans are destroying the earth because there are too many of us in general. Humans, individually, have value. But there is no denying that there are too many of us.


I guess most people don't think about it, but 300 years ago the Great San Joaquin Valley in California was a large marsh. Prior to that is was a great inland sea connected to the Pacific at San Francisco Bay. That is why the San Joaquin is so fertile because of the sedimentary soil. When Momi's father first acquired his ranch back in the 1930's, he had to drain his land to farm there. The water table was only about 2 or 3 feet below grade after drainage. Today, it is necessary to dig a well 200 feet or more to hit water. If the SJ Valley were not irrigated, it would be a desert and you all would have to pay much more for your fruits and vegetables and wine, 20% of US agricultural production comes from the SJ Valley.

Living in a desert is not the problem, overpopulation is the problem. In the US, birth rates are dropping rapidly while utilization of dwindling natural resources are increasing just as rapidly. But why should we worry about conservation of resources and climate change, it is not my problem. I'll use as much as I want, let future generations worry about the results. I would just like to leave the earth a better place than what I inherited.

Ricky's Popi


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

mudpuppymama said:


> We are on city water now. Highest bill has been $20 a month. I think I am spoiled.


Your very lucky. A few years ago we got penalized for going over our allotment for the month. It was over $600.00! That's when we had artificial turf installed. &#128522;


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

mudpuppymama said:


> We are on city water now. Highest bill has been $20 a month. I think I am spoiled.


Several years ago we were penalized for going over our monthly water allotment. It was over $600.00. That is when we knew it was time to install artificial turf.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Heather's said:


> Your very lucky. A few years ago we got penalized for going over our allotment for the month. It was over $600.00! That's when we had artificial turf installed. &#128522;


Yikes! I am definitely spoiled! We actually NEVER water our lawn. We do water the flower beds occasionally though. Even though there is not a water shortage here, it just seems like a waste to water the lawn and impossible to keep it adequately watered during July and August when it is super hot. Ours is not the loveliest yard in the neighborhood but that is okay with us.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

We still have to water all the plants, but the two lawns were the major problem. As I remember at that time we were allowed to use 50 gallons/day. Anything over that was a big penalty.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> We hope to eventually have a backup generator. The new wood stoves nowadays are much more efficient and clean burning than they used to be. It is nice to have backup systems when you live in a freezing climate.


We are in a strange position because we live between our two town fire facilities, so under normal circumstances, if there is a power outage, they are likely to get our power on pretty quickly if it is out on the street. HOWEVER, we have a LONG run back to our house, and we are the ONLY house on that line. And they make decisions on fixing lines based on how many customers they can bring on line at once. So if OUR line goes out in a bad storm... it could be out for a while.

And it's not just heat. Another thing that is very different about New England and the west is that we mostly have basements. (Though I think they are pretty common in Missouri too... at least my friends in the St. Louis area have them) And many basement, including ours, get wet in very bad weather without the help of sump pumps. So heat is not the ONLY issue. We can get a foot of water in our basement if our sump pumps don't keep running. A foot of water would not only ruin "stuff" in the basement, but could also ruin the furnace, AC and water heater which all live down there too. So, yeah, a generator is pretty important. It has it's own circuit, which connects it to the refrigerator, the furnace, the sump pumps and a few lights and outlets in the kitchen. The stove is gas, so between those things, we are in pretty good shape really for a couple of weeks, at least, as long as we keep refilling the gas in the generator.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Living in a desert is not the problem, overpopulation is the problem.


Absolutely. That was my point.

In the US, birth rates are dropping rapidly while utilization of dwindling natural resources are increasing just as rapidly. But why should we worry about conservation of resources and climate change, it is not my problem. I'll use as much as I want, let future generations worry about the results. I would just like to leave the earth a better place than what I inherited.
[/QUOTE]

We all need to do our part. But whether the birth rate in the US is dropping or not, the HUMAN birth rate, so far is not, and mother earth is already groaning under our weight. I don't like to talk about the US alone, although we certainly have to look at our part in all of this. We have to look at each of our separate states' parts in it too.(and each will have different problems and need to approach things differently because climates and needs differ)

I've traveled enough in developing countries to know that the answers aren't easy there either.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Oh goodness, there are people who still do that? That's a death wish.


Even though the range manufacturers require it to be vented outside, there have been loopholes that mean they often aren't. None of the houses built in my neighborhood had their range vented outside, the vent hoods installed with them are not even close to powerful enough. When I was trying to figure this out for my own house, I learned that it's a common problem because of the discrepancies between regulation on installation, between manufactures, and in the code. This may have changed, but our house wasn't built that long ago.

I just meant that there are lots of things I'd like to upgrade or rethink but in terms of overall efficiency and safety in my home, there are other things that are more pressing. It is really interesting to hear how it is in different parts of the country, though. And how it might impact our Havanese


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

krandall said:


> We are in a strange position because we live between our two town fire facilities, so under normal circumstances, if there is a power outage, they are likely to get our power on pretty quickly if it is out on the street. HOWEVER, we have a LONG run back to our house, and we are the ONLY house on that line. And they make decisions on fixing lines based on how many customers they can bring on line at once. So if OUR line goes out in a bad storm... it could be out for a while.
> 
> And it's not just heat. Another thing that is very different about New England and the west is that we mostly have basements. (Though I think they are pretty common in Missouri too... at least my friends in the St. Louis area have them) And many basement, including ours, get wet in very bad weather without the help of sump pumps. So heat is not the ONLY issue. We can get a foot of water in our basement if our sump pumps don't keep running. A foot of water would not only ruin "stuff" in the basement, but could also ruin the furnace, AC and water heater which all live down there too. So, yeah, a generator is pretty important. It has it's own circuit, which connects it to the refrigerator, the furnace, the sump pumps and a few lights and outlets in the kitchen. The stove is gas, so between those things, we are in pretty good shape really for a couple of weeks, at least, as long as we keep refilling the gas in the generator.


The sump pumps were really interesting to me when my sister moved to the Midwest. Basements are commonplace here, but sump pumps aren't as common. They're required in some places based on the water table, but I don't know a lot of people who have them. My parents have one and it's never even turned on, so it sort of seems like "just in case," like a fire extinguisher you definitely want to have but will hopefully never use. When my sister bought her house, they disclosed the backup sump pump was broken, and she thought, there's still a primary sump pump, no big deal, we'll get it fixed eventually. Apparently, even the backup is necessary!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> The sump pumps were really interesting to me when my sister moved to the Midwest. Basements are commonplace here, but sump pumps aren't as common. They're required in some places based on the water table, but I don't know a lot of people who have them. My parents have one and it's never even turned on, so it sort of seems like "just in case," like a fire extinguisher you definitely want to have but will hopefully never use. When my sister bought her house, they disclosed the backup sump pump was broken, and she thought, there's still a primary sump pump, no big deal, we'll get it fixed eventually. Apparently, even the backup is necessary!


We live at the bottom of a long hill. (Well, our whole property is a hill, and our HOUSE is at the bottom) MOST of the time our basement stays dry. BUT if the ground is frozen and we have a big rain, and that's not an uncommon occurrence in the late winter/ early spring, the water all sluices off that hill, comes right down and washes up against our foundation... and fills up the basement.

One of the many things the guy who originally built the house didn't think through very carefully. This isn't a house in a "housing development". It's a one-off, on a piece of property that was a part of a cow farm for 200 years. The guy who built the house was sort of a handy man who built it himself. It is "overbuilt" in some ways, but wasn't very well designed. And the orginal structure was TINY. And UGLY! We bought it for the property, not the house. Over the years, we've added on twice, and we love it now. But it's almost twice as big as it was originally, and there is really NOTHING that hasn't been redone.

The first photo is from the day we signed the offer on it. It didn't even have a paved driveway. The second photo is what it looks like now, 35 years later!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> We are in a strange position because we live between our two town fire facilities, so under normal circumstances, if there is a power outage, they are likely to get our power on pretty quickly if it is out on the street. HOWEVER, we have a LONG run back to our house, and we are the ONLY house on that line. And they make decisions on fixing lines based on how many customers they can bring on line at once. So if OUR line goes out in a bad storm... it could be out for a while.
> 
> And it's not just heat. Another thing that is very different about New England and the west is that we mostly have basements. (Though I think they are pretty common in Missouri too... at least my friends in the St. Louis area have them) And many basement, including ours, get wet in very bad weather without the help of sump pumps. So heat is not the ONLY issue. We can get a foot of water in our basement if our sump pumps don't keep running. A foot of water would not only ruin "stuff" in the basement, but could also ruin the furnace, AC and water heater which all live down there too. So, yeah, a generator is pretty important. It has it's own circuit, which connects it to the refrigerator, the furnace, the sump pumps and a few lights and outlets in the kitchen. The stove is gas, so between those things, we are in pretty good shape really for a couple of weeks, at least, as long as we keep refilling the gas in the generator.


In Missouri almost everyone has a basement but not everyone has a sump pump so I guess it depends on exactly where your house is. Our new house will not have a basement which has raised some eyebrows amongst family and friends. However, we have lived in two house with basements and all they are used for is the cat litter box which is nice I have to admit. However, my cat is 16 and we didn't want to put in a basement just for the cat! Other than that all we have used basements to accumulate junk! As far as backup generators, we definitely need backup for more than just heat. We will have a well and that means no water when the electricity is out! The other thing basements are good for though is storm shelter. We have frequent tornados here but are planning on putting in a small storm shelter on the main floor.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Even though the range manufacturers require it to be vented outside, there have been loopholes that mean they often aren't. None of the houses built in my neighborhood had their range vented outside, the vent hoods installed with them are not even close to powerful enough. When I was trying to figure this out for my own house, I learned that it's a common problem because of the discrepancies between regulation on installation, between manufactures, and in the code. This may have changed, but our house wasn't built that long ago.
> 
> I just meant that there are lots of things I'd like to upgrade or rethink but in terms of overall efficiency and safety in my home, there are other things that are more pressing. It is really interesting to hear how it is in different parts of the country, though. And how it might impact our Havanese


I think many big fancy expensive range hoods are installed for aesthetics. Many are not close enough to the surface to be effective and are never used. My husband does most of the cooking and refuses to have what he calls a "jet engine" in his face. And I have to confess I do not want to discourage a man from cooking! Our new house will have an induction cooktop. We have never had one so hoping it works alright. No fumes but I think they throw off a lot of radiation which is not good so there you go again...impossible to win!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> In Missouri almost everyone has a basement but not everyone has a sump pump so I guess it depends on exactly where your house is. Our new house will not have a basement which has raised some eyebrows amongst family and friends. However, we have lived in two house with basements and all they are used for is the cat litter box which is nice I have to admit. However, my cat is 16 and we didn't want to put in a basement just for the cat! Other than that all we have used basements to accumulate junk! As far as backup generators, we definitely need backup for more than just heat. We will have a well and that means no water when the electricity is out! The other thing basements are good for though is storm shelter. We have frequent tornados here but are planning on putting in a small storm shelter on the main floor.


Oh, I forgot that Missouri is tornado territory! We've only been threatened by one tornado (although, because of climate change, we are getting a few every summer now in MA!) but I was happy to have the basement when we were!!! I remember hunkering under the basement stairs with my sons, Kodi (we didn't have then, the cat and the bird. (the fish would have to fend for themselves!) My fool HS age son wanted to go upstairs and watch!!! The tornado actually bounced over our town, doing a lot of damage in the towns west and east of ours. We HEARD it go directly over us, but we only had leaves torn off the tree tops.

We DO use our basement because our winters are LONG. I have grow racks for plants down there and my training room for the dogs. I think your winters are a lot shorter than ours!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> I think many big fancy expensive range hoods are installed for aesthetics. Many are not close enough to the surface to be effective and are never used. My husband does most of the cooking and refuses to have what he calls a "jet engine" in his face. And I have to confess I do not want to discourage a man from cooking! Our new house will have an induction cooktop. We have never had one so hoping it works alright. No fumes but I think they throw off a lot of radiation which is not good so there you go again...impossible to win!


You'd want to discourage MY husband from cooking! THAT man can burn boiling water! LOL!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> You'd want to discourage MY husband from cooking! THAT man can burn boiling water! LOL!


Wanted to add that I do the cleanup...he cooks great but not so good in the cleanup department! But I am not going to say anything....


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> Oh, I forgot that Missouri is tornado territory! We've only been threatened by one tornado (although, because of climate change, we are getting a few every summer now in MA!) but I was happy to have the basement when we were!!! I remember hunkering under the basement stairs with my sons, Kodi (we didn't have then, the cat and the bird. (the fish would have to fend for themselves!) My fool HS age son wanted to go upstairs and watch!!! The tornado actually bounced over our town, doing a lot of damage in the towns west and east of ours. We HEARD it go directly over us, but we only had leaves torn off the tree tops.
> 
> We DO use our basement because our winters are LONG. I have grow racks for plants down there and my training room for the dogs. I think your winters are a lot shorter than ours!


Winters here are not too bad. It can get into the teens and single digits but never lasts too long. We have tornado warnings fairly often and have gone to basement a few times. We are hoping to put a small storm shelter in the middle of our new house that we can pop into with the dogs! Should be cozy!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

mudpuppymama said:


> I think many big fancy expensive range hoods are installed for aesthetics. Many are not close enough to the surface to be effective and are never used. My husband does most of the cooking and refuses to have what he calls a "jet engine" in his face. And I have to confess I do not want to discourage a man from cooking! Our new house will have an induction cooktop. We have never had one so hoping it works alright. No fumes but I think they throw off a lot of radiation which is not good so there you go again...impossible to win!


My mom loves her induction cooktop and I received some very nice, expensive pots and pans that she couldn't use anymore, so I was happy with it, too  This is actually her second, she installed one in her kitchen before this house, so she really does love it.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

mudpuppymama said:


> Wanted to add that I do the cleanup...he cooks great but not so good in the cleanup department! But I am not going to say anything....


That's funny. That does seem like a reasonable division of labor. I'm a clean cook, I clean as I go, so when it's time to clean up there isn't a lot to do. The down side to this is that my cooking revolves around long it will take and how much of a mess it will create. I make a fantastic grilled sandwich because it's fast and uses only one pan  Cleaning after my husband cooks makes me crazy. I don't understand why he sets down utensils on the counter, leaves food out, etc. I'm a terrible person, I know. I do really appreciate his cooking, though, and he does most of it, too.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> My mom loves her induction cooktop and I received some very nice, expensive pots and pans that she couldn't use anymore, so I was happy with it, too  This is actually her second, she installed one in her kitchen before this house, so she really does love it.


Awesome...that is great to know. Thanks!


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

The name of this thread is "Battling Tear Stains"! LOL, we have hijacked another thread! :grin2:

Interesting discussions though. :tea:


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Here’s how we bring it back around: 

There are food additives that work for some pets, such as Vet’s Choice and probiotics. Keeping the face clean and dry can help. Distilled water could help to clean the face, but don’t give it to them to drink. Consider the mineral content of drinking water if tear staining is a problem. If someone decides to do a trial of bottled drinking water, they might want to consider buying a larger volume and consider plastic content, for environmental and health reasons. If a change in drinking water improves tear stains, and that person considers a home water filter system, good luck with that because there is a ton of information to sift through, and depending on where you live, all of that information might be different  

It all connects eventually! Most of it anyway? It does feel like I’m forgetting some things, lol.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Winters here are not too bad. It can get into the teens and single digits but never lasts too long. We have tornado warnings fairly often and have gone to basement a few times. We are hoping to put a small storm shelter in the middle of our new house that we can pop into with the dogs! Should be cozy!


I have friends who live in Oklahoma... I don't think I could live the way they do. It's pretty common for them to pack a picnic dinner and eat supper in the tornado shelter night after night in the late summer where they live.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> I have friends who live in Oklahoma... I don't think I could live the way they do. It's pretty common for them to pack a picnic dinner and eat supper in the tornado shelter night after night in the late summer where they live.


I think Oklahoma is worse than where we are but I don't know for sure. Mikki lives there. I know that tornados are bad and COULD hit but I really think the chances of one hitting exactly where you are at are not all that great. I have lived here my whole life (66 years) and no tornados have ever hit very close to where we were. If the sirens go off we go to the basement but that is maybe 3 or 4 times per year. Some years it's a bit less than this and sometimes a bit more. And we have never been in the basement more than an hour! It is good to take precautions but I think when it's your time to go, it's your time to go!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

mudpuppymama said:


> I think Oklahoma is worse than where we are but I don't know for sure. Mikki lives there. I know that tornados are bad and COULD hit but I really think the chances of one hitting exactly where you are at are not all that great. I have lived here my whole life (66 years) and no tornados have ever hit very close to where we were. If the sirens go off we go to the basement but that is maybe 3 or 4 times per year. Some years it's a bit less than this and sometimes a bit more. And we have never been in the basement more than an hour! It is good to take precautions but I think when it's your time to go, it's your time to go!


We also live on top of the New Madrid fault...! There won't be any siren warnings if that goes! Hopefully that will be after I am gone.


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