# Advise on affraid 2.5 y/o male havanese I brought home last night



## KrisE

My baby coco wanted a playmate so I found a 2.5 year old boy for her. The problem is he was in a kennel and seems has had very little socialization. When I slowly walk up to him he either tries to escape or scours and lays on his back in submission. Just not what I'd expect I guess. I was told he was socialized, but was kept mostly in a kennel with other hav's and silky's. 

He just seems so out of place. I know it will take time I guess, but Bill said he just ran into the glass door trying to get away. Poor baby... This just doesn't seem normal.

If anyone who's fostered a kennel dog would let me chat with them to mentor me through this, I'd be so gracious. I am giving him treats and trying to give him as quiet and loving a home as possible. 

BTW, my coco loves having a new playmate. It's funny seeing her the open one because I've always thought she was too skiddish herself LOL


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## lfung5

I had a scared foster dog for about 2 weeks. The best advice I can give to you is, let him come to you. Don't force him to do things he hates and don't overwhelm him. I'm sure he will come around, but it takes time. Good luck!


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## KrisE

*Thanks I read some other threads and talked to hubby*

He'll get into the groove I'm sure.


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## Pixiesmom

Kris, it's great to hear from you again. I'd love to see some recent pics of Coco (and I hope you received compensation for what happened). I don't have any advice, but I know more knowledgable folks can get you on track. What is your new boys name? Is he a puppy mill rescue?


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## davetgabby

Let the two dogs sort out their own things. You've got a job ahead of you ,but it can be done. Here is a five part article that might give some insight. If it gets to the point of any aggression towards humans, I would definitely call in a professional. Give him space , feed him separately, let him approach you . Slowly building up his trust is the most important thing. Here is some reading though. http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/saving-ollie-part-1-series-shelter-dog-serious-behavior-problems


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## good buddy

Cesar would say don't look, don't talk, don't touch. Have a yummy smelling treat with you but don't approach the dog or even look at him. Wait for him to come to you out of natural curiousity and then toss a bit of the treat towards him without reaching for him or even looking at him. You need to take it slow.


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## mimismom

Congrats on your new hav!!!

We found Mimi at a shelter and it took her a while to warm up to us. We knew nothing of her background except that she may have grown up with littermates. She was one year old. 

We of course didn't know what to do with a dog at the time. She started eating after a day or two and then she finally would go towards us when we called. 

It will take time, but I am sure both will become great friends.


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## KrisE

*My camera reader is SOL LOL*



Pixiesmom said:


> Kris, it's great to hear from you again. I'd love to see some recent pics of Coco (and I hope you received compensation for what happened). I don't have any advice, but I know more knowledgable folks can get you on track. What is your new boys name? Is he a puppy mill rescue?


I have to bring in my computer, but I'll post a pic that I might not have here yet. I want to take pics of both pups. Funny thing is the male dog is named Coco too so we're going to be calling them both coco and mr/mrs to each other to differentiate. Mr is sitting at the door for the most part looking outside and we're letting him out about every hour and a half. He's not aggressive at all and does seem to be warming up.

We've talked alot about how difficult to be taken away from all your litter mates of over 2 years and thrust into our home. I was a bit concerned because he almost seemed as if he'd been abused due to the fear he's displaying with us. But, he did sleep at the end of our bed last night with no problem. We're very loving people and Ms Coco is happy and playful so Mr won't take long I'm sure to trust us and feel he belongs.

Everywhere we go, people stop us and even lean into the car to ask about Coco. She's just the most beautiful, loving dog I've ever met. I've never been this close to a pet before. Mr came from a breeding program, not a shelter. I was looking for a puppy and found him. I'd seen his pictures when I was looking for coco on a breeders site and loved his look. Sometimes things just happen so oddly. For him to become available when I'm now looking for an addition to our family. It had to be fate.

I can't wait for everyone to see these two together. I'll figure out this problem with my reader I promise LOL


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## Pixiesmom

I think you posted those, but they're great. She is soo pretty. There is a breeder in FL with a little boy that looks soo much like her and it's taking all the willpower I have to not drive and get him. Mr and Mrs-that is hilarious!!!


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## KrisE

I have the new pictures stuck in my computer LOL. I have to take a tweezer again to the slot I guess, maybe a third try will do it. 

Go, drive.... get that puppy hahahahahah. :cheer2:

I didn't want to change his name so I guess we get two for the price of one when we call their name.


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## PepperToast

Oh how gorgeous she is. She has kept her wonderful coloring. So nice to see her and hear from you too!

When I brought my kennel rescue home she had never seen a kid, never seen a man or had been abused by a man and never climbed stairs. 

I basically left her alone. I just ignored her completely. She chose to hide under our bed upstairs away from us (it was Christmas Eve). I told the kids to totally ignore her too. However, my other dogs were not kept from her. I wanted their confidence to help show her this is a good home. If she ever approached me I became very calm and moved veeeeeerrrrrrryyyyyy slow. I never raised my voice. I just acted ultra safe and stable. 

The first few weeks I had to force feed her/encourage her so that was a tricky time. I didn't want her to be scared of me but I needed her to eat (all 2 lbs of her!) I just spent a lot of time sitting on the floor. It ends up she is a REALLY dominant dog but this act of lowering myself down helped her, it did not affect our long term relationship as far as dominance is concerned.

She came out of her shell with me quite quickly. Another thing that helped with her and another shy dog I had was once she had relaxed a bit and would take treats from me I started doing this:

I would sing their name in a really high octave song as I was squatting down and holding a treat flat in my hand. All I did was let them approach me and take the treat, I never reached for them, and never picked them up. I called it a 'no expectations encounter'. I just wanted them to come and take the treat from me. I wanted them to associate this song and me with only good, safe feelings. Gradually this song would make them rush up to me and pretty much crash into me in excitement to get to me. Then I would pet them and love on them as well as treat them. I found this established a really good bond. A sort of base of trust to build our relationship. Eventually they were comfortable enough to be picked up and cuddled. And before I knew it, I just had these normal, balanced, secure dogs. 

One thing I will note is I did not feel sorry for them. I wanted to but I didn't let myself. I had little to no history on them so I just pretended it did not exist and decided that I was going to create the kind of dog I wanted. Sort of like I was raising them from puppyhood. That might of helped too. I am not sure though.

Have fun with the Cocos!

PS I change all my rescues names. I really do start fresh. Mollie was called Mollie Yetta for about 1 week until I knew she recognized Yetta, then it was Yetta from that point on. I really wanted the slate wiped clean. She still recognizes Mollie and will answer to it (one of my daughters likes that name better) but Yetta is her new name and she is a completely different dog from a year ago.


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## luv3havs

*Great Tip!*

Peppertoast,
I just love the technique you used, singing to the dogs, to get them to approach you for a treat. How clever! Funny too.

I must remember that if I ever have a similar situation.

Your dogs are lucky to have you!


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## KrisE

*I managed to fix my usb problem*

I just talked to my hubby about all the wonderful suggestions and we're going to offer alot of treats. We still haven't decided if both having the same name really matters or not.

He has been eating and drinking now this afternoon, sigh of relief.

It's obvious now that he's just off a bit with all the changes and not to fear about long-term emotional issues. Thank you so much, it means alot to understand this is quite normal.

I did get some pictures of ms and mr together as well. Coco and I went visiting our new family member at our front door LOL


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## Pixiesmom

Look at them!!!! They're awesome together.
Look at this baby Kris-I'm soo tempted.
http://www.foreverpoodle.com/images/puppies_030.JPG


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## KrisE

I wouldn't be able to resist. He's so beautiful!!!! OMG


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## Sheri

Kris, Congratulations on your new boy! Love the photos of Mrs. Coco, she's really kept her deep, dark chocolate, hasn't she? She's gorgeous! And they are very nice looking together. 

The tips you've gotten sound great, I've not got anything to add. But, have fun, and keep posting those pictures!


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## marb42

Kris, congrats on your new addition. They look adorable in the pics together. He'll come out of his shell. Sounds like he just hasn't been socialized. I'm so glad you saved him from a life being kenneled.


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## Wildflower

He is so cute!


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## gelbergirl

good to see you on the forum.
Glad to read Coco has a playmate.


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## ama0722

I think you have had some good advice. With the two mill dogs I have fostered, the ignore at first is best even though it is hard. I just went on doing stuff at my home and ignored the dog for the first 48 hours. It helps if you have dogs who are well socialized as dogs who come from mills tend usually trust other dogs more than people. Then eventually lots of interaction with food, small movements as well. For some reason one of the dogs I fostered was totally fine if people were laying down-so you might want to try that.

I don't know if Mr. Coco came from the breeder posted above but if so, I would do research on mill dogs and training them accordingly as that is a USDA registered breeder


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## KrisE

*I need to clarify here please, no abuse of puppy mills were involved here*

I doubt he was mistreated and I thought his owner was a kind lady who cared alot about what type of home her boy was being moved to.

It's my fault for not realizing the differences in adopting a puppy compared to an adult dog. Last night and earlier today I was affraid something was wrong with him. I'm so glad I came here to find this is quite normal and to give him time to adjust.

I knew when he met my Coco that they'd be lifelong friends. My coco has always been fearful of other dogs. She immediately felt at ease with this boy... as if they already knew each other.

I wouldn't hesitate to do business with this breeder. Coco's parents were health tested and I was given his lineage, which was pretty impressive.


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## Havtahava

KrisE said:


> I wouldn't hesitate to do business with this breeder. Coco's parents were health tested and I was given his lineage, which was pretty impressive.


Well, the good thing about being 2.5 years old, and especially since he was used for breeding, is that he should have all of his health testing done already too. This makes it easy for you to know his hearing, vision, patellas, heart, hips and whatever else are all in good shape.

It freaks me out that she is willing to sell so many dogs on full registration though - and for an additional price.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

KrisE said:


> I doubt he was mistreated and I thought his owner was a kind lady who cared alot about what type of home her boy was being moved to.
> 
> It's my fault for not realizing the differences in adopting a puppy compared to an adult dog. Last night and earlier today I was affraid something was wrong with him. I'm so glad I came here to find this is quite normal and to give him time to adjust.
> 
> I knew when he met my Coco that they'd be lifelong friends. My coco has always been fearful of other dogs. She immediately felt at ease with this boy... as if they already knew each other.
> 
> I wouldn't hesitate to do business with this breeder. Coco's parents were health tested and I was given his lineage, which was pretty impressive.


I am so glad you got him, he will surely give you back lots of love and I know he will enjoy being special in your life. Good you got him, things have a way of working out sometimes for the best, dont they? I am sure the breeder is happy he is in a good home too!


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## KrisE

Now, another issue has cropped up. He's marking all over the house when I was specifically told by the breeder he doesn't do this. I called and asked if I could pay more and get the female puppy instead because of this and she refuses. 

I have no problem with potty training. But, from what I'm told, it's impossible to correct a dog that marks. If he was a puppy, I could just neuter him, too late. This is why I asked if he was marking when he was in her house. She said NO. She specifically said, many of her dogs she wouldn't trust in her house, but she does with coco and I shouldn't have that issue. 

I"m so dang done with breeders and their greed. I'm bringing him in on Monday and if he has any defects she has to take him back per our contract. She says she can't take him back because he could have picked something up ROFL. I can guarantee you, I am the one taking more chances in that area than she would ever have. Yes, Parvo is an issue, but I don't have parvo in this house and I don't take him out walking the neighborhood. I've also already bathed him because he didn't smell so great. In addition, his breath is aweful to see she obviously hasn't EVER taken care of his teeth. He's got loads of tartar in his poor mouth. She obviously has no dental hygene in place for the many dogs she breeds. How sad. 

I think everyone was right in reading into this that she's just another nasty puppy mill who uses dogs she neglects for financial gain. 

Then, I'm going to have to sell him to someone else because I'm not home enough to keep him from being penned all the time.

I got him in the first place so he could play with coco, they would keep each other company during the day. How's he going to do that when he's penned so he doesn't ruin all my furniture while I'm gone?

What a dang mess. If she'd just been honest with me about his marking tendencies, I'd have paid more and gotten her female puppy.

Why are people so nasty. Now, I'll have to write a review of her dishonesty on puppyfind, find a new home for him and start all over.... greed, greed, greed.

She kept confusing the issue of potty training and marking all over my house while trying to talk to her on the phone about this. 

I asked her why she didn't bring his test results along with the his parents. She said she doesn't believe in testing her dogs if their parents are. So........... another strike.


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## Havtahava

Kris has he been neutered yet? I think you'd have trouble with pretty much any adult male that has been used for breeding. He's in a new house with all new smells and he's used to being pretty important as a stud. My dogs don't mark in my house, but if I go out to someone else's house, my males always had to wear a belly band for the exact same reason you are finding. She may very well have been telling the truth that he doesn't mark in her house.


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## KrisE

She tells me now that he was only in her house for a few hours, very few times and right beside her so she shouldn't have made this statement in the first place. This is exactly why I asked her this question. Some dogs don't mark. 
I don't know what to do. Come Monday, he'll be stuck alone in a room from 8am til 6pm. What a terrible way to live. I can't band him for that length of time either. I can deal with him piddling on a pad, not marking the house all over the place.


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## PepperToast

Kris, 

I know you are really upset right now and it is really easy to understand because you have been burned really really bad before. I am not saying that you are not right. That said, it would be highly unusual for an intact male to NOT mark at a new home. This is most likely just part of his initial adjustment. It might be good for you to put a belly band on him and just let things simmer for a day or two. I also have intact males (only one at moment) and neutered and females and at any given time one or the other looked like they were considering marking a new home with another dog in residence. It's kind of normal behavior unfortunately. 

This issue really can go away once he has gotten the message that this is his house and he may not do that. He can be banded for that long as an adult dog can hold it for that long and I do think it would be wise to contain him while you are gone anyways even if this was not an issue as he is a new dog to your home.

Again, I can't say I blame you for being so concerned but I would really encourage you to sleep on it as it is not unheard of behavior for an adult dog in a new setting.


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## good buddy

Kris, it could just be that he is new to your home. Use belly bands on him when you can't watch him and work with him when you have the chance. My Rufus will be only too happy to mark a tree or bush. I have to watch him like a hawk in the hardware store or the Ag supply, but he NEVER marks in my house. He has learned that it is innappropriate in our home. I put a belly band on him if we are in someone else's home or a hotel room just to e sure. 

One of the females gals I adopted last year also marked in the house the first day here. After that I had to work carefully to train her.

Any dog new to your home could mark just because they dont know not to. Just because a dog knows not to mark in one building doesn't mean he applies that logic to every building.


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## KrisE

Ok I'll go get some belly bands tomorrow. I do have a really cool Graco Pack N Play Sport small pen with a canvas bottom and a top so he can't jump out. I could put him in that while I'm at work. I bought it for coco, but never needed to pen her. It's about 4' around. I'm concerned because while talking to the breeder about this I didn't get a straight answer as to if he's been in a small kennel he had to pee in as well before. Thus, I think he will pee in whatever he's kennelled in if kept there long enough and I don't want him without water that long. 

I was just reading to use the belly band when I can't watch him or is it that I just keep the band on him all the time, take it off only when he's out to pee? Another site said if I can, to not have the band on and when he starts to mark, say in a strict voice "NO" and he should get it. When I'm busy, put the band back on. 

Do I take the band off on Monday while he stays in the pen 10 hours? I could buy a small normal kennel as well but she's not telling me in so many words that she thinks he could pee in there and then be laying in it all day long. 

See, I tell hubby who's on the main level to ignore him.. don't look at him. I go downstairs to fix dinner and I see pee. I check and he's already peed on 6 different things LOL. My poor husband got the riot act for doing what I asked him to do LOL

Mr. is up with me right now. He's actually moved from the edge of the bed to nuzzing up to my foot a bit. Maybe there is hope... 

I've never seen a dog act like this? I do want to make this work since I'm being forced to anyway. Even if I were to sell him to someone, I'd still have to go through all this in the meantime. 


Why didn't I just get a girl puppy? Oh I know... she assured me he wouldn't piss all over my house :frusty:

I had to laugh when I saw he peed on one side of an expensive irreplaceable screen, then went to the backside and pissed on that side as well LOL


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## good buddy

Sorry to hear the new guy is frustrating you, but be aware girls can mark too.  I have a little old lady dog that although she doesn't mark in my house, she can't wait to pee over others' pee and will stop at every tree if I let her! There are no guarentees on these things!


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## KrisE

Thank you all so much! I do want this to work. I'm sorry I'm so emotional about all of this. I work long hours now so I don't have the time I did when coco was little. It breaks my heart keeping Mr coco in a small verikennel for such a long time.

http://www.kiddicare.com/wcsstore/C...g/ppngcopnpsportppol/ppngcopnpsportppol_l.jpg

Do you think this playpen would work well for him while he's still getting adjusted or should I put him in a small kennel? With the playpen, I can give him water to drink and some toys and room to move around.

I could still keep the band on him in the graco playpen so he doesn't spray in there. Just asking how best to do this for him this coming work week.

Thanks so much again
Kris


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## pjewel

Milo used to mark all over the place and I was tempted to give him up more than once. When I got the belly bands both our lives were better. It is not uncomfortable for them to wear the bands and it keeps your sanity. That said, since I had Milo neutered (the beginning of January) he has not been back in the bands at all and the marking appears to have stopped. BTW, when in a belly band you should not have to keep him sequestered.

This is all new to you and to him. Try not to get yourself crazy about this. There are solutions that should work for you and for him.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Geri is right, with the belly bands, he should not have to be kept in the pen/kennel,unless you have other issues with him and also, the neutering is so important. Females do mark too, I have seen it and I asked a question about it earlier on the forum. If you are going to leave him in a pen, I vote for the larger one with water, and a puppy pad..what does everyone say to this?


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## Pixiesmom

Oh Kris, I'm so sorry that you're stressed out! This guy has not been showered with affection like Coco has, and it's going to take time with him. I wish I lived by you-I would take him for the day! He will adjust, just keep out your bottle of enzyme cleaner and know that he's not doing it to spite you, and try not to lose your mind. He'll learn. There are some great breeders out there. You have just been, unfortunately, dealt a bad hand. Just try to keep up a positive attitude-I think in the end you'll have two very happy dogs that are great buddies. (And hey, remember toddlerhood-this can't be more exhausting than that)!


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## ama0722

KrisE said:


> I wouldn't hesitate to do business with this breeder. Coco's parents were health tested and I was given his lineage, which was pretty impressive.


Kris- I take it the dog was shipped to you and you didn't see how/where it was raised? I am kind of shocked you did this with your first experience and being a member of the forum for over a year. I just have to say for any of the newbies, reading this, just because a breeder is a "nice" person, you should know how your dog or puppy is raised. This breeder has a USDA license and Iowa is one of the top puppy mill states. I personally hate puppyfind and other internet sale with a passion 

I think there are generally two ways a belly band is used. Either to actually train or to manage the situation. I have seen people use them both ways. If for management, you leave the belly band on with a pad and just let the dog go. This way it isn't on your floor and belongings. I don't think this trains a dog at all though. But some people are okay with this method- I think it is a personal and based upon what you can feesible do. The other way is to use the belly band and still be with the dog that way the dog feels the wetness and the correction of "no" if caught in the act. I brought in an older male rescue and I did this. I watched him like a hawk but had the belly band on him as I didn't want his urine on my furniture. I think the challenge you have is not being there to do the later. The other thing, I dont think most toy dogs can hold it for 10 hours. Was Coco pad or litter box trained? I would try to integrate the mr. to the ms. routine as best you can. With being gone so long, this may be more of a challenge though but possibly you could have someone come in the house midway through the day while you are getting the mr. into the routine. Even if you are banding him to avoid him peeing all over his kennel, someone to come in midway through the day to let him potty in the litter box or outside (whatever your routine) will probably lead to a faster routine.


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## Thumper

They are both adorable and do look like a Mr and Mrs to me 

On marking, your breeder may have been telling you the truth when she said they didn't mark at her house and the reason I say this is because I have a very good friend with 4 havs (2 males) and they don't mark at her house, but they DO mark at mine. I'm not sure why, maybe it is because of my female dog 

It may be him just claiming your house, I KNOW it is frustrating. I kept the dogs for 4-5 days and I was in tears about to pull my hair out cleaning up piss :frusty: I think I did cry, actually....lol

But when I go to their house, I NEVER see them mark, they are totally housebroken there.

I'm really sorry you are frustrated and I do understand, been there...I do think you can fix this problem, it'll just take patience and lots of work.

hugs,
Kara


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## marb42

Kris, I'm sorry for your frustration. Everyone has given such excellent advice. I only have to say that he's an unneutered male, and these are his first few days with you. His whole like has been turned upside, and it's hard to know what his life was like before you got him. It's going to take time to train him, and the belly bands are a great start. Good luck


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## KrisE

We woke up, I took both downstairs and watched Mr like a hawk. I think I caught him with a stern "NO" at least 20 times while waiting for Bill to come back with a belly band. I did manage to catch him before he could spray. Of course they only had one small sized belly band, so I'm going to get more now. 

Ms wants to claim ALL THE TOYS, bed, me and her treats. It's kind of funny. Oh and when I let mr out when I saw he needed to poo, I was praising him and showing a treat to gently get him inside. I've also been trying to let him outside once I see he's in this marking mood to try and break the habig. This marking thing feels like a very strong instinctual thing for him.

So, I'm trying to get my shy Mr inside with praise from pooing with a treat and out darts Ms from under my legs. We now have two tie-outs so we can lock each on before opening the door. Another problem solved. 

Mr seems to want to mark just a few areas and I can tell when he is in that mood to mark and have been able to catch him before the leg goes all the way up. I did allow him to mark the puppy pad a few times with treats and praise. This pad is used by coco while I'm gone days so I'm trying to teach Mr the same.

Most of our home is heated stone flooring so easy cleanup. I'm going to put away a few items of furniture he seems to like while he's still training so I don't have to worry about those. 

A very respected breeder friend of mine thinks it will be impossible to trian him not to mark in the house. Mr's breeder called this morning and offered 300 to return him today after thinking overnight. I told her that after all the support and advise here, I want to give it a week yet. Hopefully, we'll get lucky and see improvement. Monday will show me how he does in a playpen and if that will suffice days til hopefully he's stopped peeing around the house.

What a relief when I got his belly band on. Running around the neighborhood after Ms while worrying he was marking inside was quite the comedy. I can't believe how stressed and exhausted I am from just these couple of hours this morning. 

Thank you again so much everyone!!! I will neuter Mr eventually. I don't want to add pain to his life right now while he's still connecting with us. We'll get through this and I am thinking within a week I should see improvement or I'll again need to reacess my options. 

Anyone here have specific experience with stud dogs introduced to a new home, even after he's been neutered will in fact stop marking? I was under the impression once they breed, it doesn't matter if you neuter. The behavior is pretty strong in this guy. 

For tomorrow: I'm going to put him in the 4' round playpen with water and a puppy pad. We'll try to watch him to correct his behavior, but I do want to use the belly band for my own personal mental health. It's amazing how tiring and stressful it is for me and I'm sure him to keep saying "no" over and over again. 

I'm off to shop while Bill watches over Mr. I instructed him to please watch him closely, and say "NO" if he starts to see him get into his marking mode again.  That boy was on a mission this morning, wow.


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## Kathy

KrisE said:


> but I do want to use the belly band for my own personal mental health. It's amazing how tiring and stressful it is for me and I'm sure him to keep saying "no" over and over again.


Be sure you change the belly band at least every 2 hours or less and give him an hour or more in between so he doesn't develop an infection or cause irritation in his genital area.


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## Leeann

Kris did you ever get Ms. spayed? I'm sorry if it was already mentioned and I missed it but I was just thinking could she be near her heat and that could also be what is cause Mr. to be marking.


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## Scooter's Family

You have an unspayed female and an unneutered male in your home? And they'll be together unsupervised for hours on end? Sounds like disaster to me!!! How do you plan to prevent them from having an "accident"?


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## Beamer

Why not just get them both fixed?? Maybe thy will also help with the marking to!

Ryan


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## Cosmosmom

I just want you to know that females can mark just like males so if you brought home a little girl she might do the same thing in the beginning . Tulip marks every time she comes to my house .. 
We expect it and just keep her outside till we hope she is running on empty . . 
With time and patience you can alter your little ones behavior but you may need a helper . !0 hours is just too long to expect a new addition to your home to hold his water as my Dad would say . Do you know someone who could come in and take him potty and stay with him for a while . he has a lot of new things to get used to .
I agree he could have not marked in the home where he came from . he knew the rules and he also knew the routine . You have to remember he is in a new home with a new dominant dog with new rules . These are really smart dogs and they aim to please but they need a little help from you not to mention some patience and love and understanding .
Do you have a friend or neighbor who could come in and take him out until he gets used to his new home . 
You might also consider giving him some rescue remedy Bach flowers to make his transition to your home easier . Hopefully you will give him a chance .


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## PepperToast

Kris, I am glad the breeder has had what seems to be a change of heart. It is also good for Mr. that you have decided to give him time to adjust to see his true self emerge. I agree with you not wanting to neuter him asap. Give him an adjustment period before you shock him! That said, if you feel you need to then do it. 

FYI to other forum members, Kris has not yet responded if Ms. Coco is spayed or not so don't get fixated on that. Also, Ms. Coco has a history here on this forum and Kris's dismay was that she was not suitable for showing (and breeding although I don't remember if she even wanted to do that). I doubt she has any intention of breeding a dog with structural issues seeing as she was so (rightfully) upset with Coco's breeder for doing just that.


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## KrisE

Bill has decided we're going to name Mr Coco, Mocha. I'm hoping to neuter him within a few weeks.

Ms Coco hadn't been fixed yet because I'd read it's better to let them have a few heats before doing so. Something to do with hormones and growth... Ms has one heat. 

I just talked to Katie Canine and she told me that's not true and to get them both fixed. I'm to email her. Apparently there's an inexpensive clinic over in Avery WI where I can take them both to get this done.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

KrisE said:


> Bill has decided we're going to name Mr Coco, Mocha. I'm hoping to neuter him within a few weeks.
> 
> Ms Coco hadn't been fixed yet because I'd read it's better to let them have a few heats before doing so. Something to do with hormones and growth... Ms has one heat.
> 
> I just talked to Katie Canine and she told me that's not true and to get them both fixed. I'm to email her. Apparently there's an inexpensive clinic over in Avery WI where I can take them both to get this done.


I have also heard this, about not spaying or neutering too soon, I think even breeders disagree about this. I would advise you to ask on the list and see, I think I saw something there about proper age to neuter a dog. I am happy you are going to give him a few days to adjust, I hope things will work out well for you all. Hugs and High Hopes.


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## Havtahava

Kris, there are varying studies out there in regard to the timeline to spay and neuter. If you do it too early (10 weeks to 4 months), they will lack the hormones necessary to fully develop, but if you wait until a bitch has her heat cycles, you risk mammary cancer. It is similar in males for testicular cancer. If she is old enough to have a heat cycle, she _has _developed hormonally (even if she is still too young to have puppies).


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## mellowbo

What a great idea to spay/neuter them at the same time. That way neither will bug the other while they are re-cuperating! And, you only need to watch that they recover well once! How sweet.
But I would do it soon if I were you.


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## KrisE

There's a clinic in Andover that sounds very reasonable. I'm asking Canine Katie about their rep and call to schedule a day to get them both done. 
Mocha has really settled down alot tonight  He hadn't wet his belly band so I took it off to let his groin breathe. I put up his Graco PackNPlay and got in it. Coco and Mocha joined me. It does give a feeling of safety in there. It has a little door so they can get in and out when they want some alone time. 

Mocha is in there now chewing on a bone :amen:


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## Wildflower

KrisE said:


> There's a clinic in Andover that sounds very reasonable. I'm asking Canine Katie about their rep and call to schedule a day to get them both done.
> Mocha has really settled down alot tonight  He hadn't wet his belly band so I took it off to let his groin breathe. I put up his Graco PackNPlay and got in it. Coco and Mocha joined me. It does give a feeling of safety in there. It has a little door so they can get in and out when they want some alone time.
> 
> Mocha is in there now chewing on a bone :amen:


Yay! I have been thinking of Mocha all day.  I hope he continues to do great!


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## PepperToast

This is GREAT news Kris. 

Yes there is a lot of differing opinions on when to spay and neuter. My holistic vet doesn't like to do it before the age of 2. However, if I needed her to do it to make their home life safer (ie no puppies!) then she would do it. Long story short, do it if it makes their lives safer and home life happier!


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## good buddy

It's nice to hear he is doing well. Keep the belly band handy. It'll help you keep your sanity until you can get him 100% trained. I like the name Mocha. It goes well with Coco.

I think getting both done soon would be the wisest. I've always heard when an older dog is re-homed they accept a new set of rules better if it's layed down right away. Neutering him will lower his hormone level and he will have less desire to mark afterwards. Also will an intact female around, that could be even more of a trigger to his hormones.


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## galaxie

KrisE said:


> Bill has decided we're going to name Mr Coco, Mocha. I'm hoping to neuter him within a few weeks.
> 
> Ms Coco hadn't been fixed yet because I'd read it's better to let them have a few heats before doing so. Something to do with hormones and growth... Ms has one heat.
> 
> I just talked to Katie Canine and she told me that's not true and to get them both fixed. I'm to email her. Apparently there's an inexpensive clinic over in Avery WI where I can take them both to get this done.


Definitely get both of them fixed ASAP!! Especially Ms. Coco, because the longer you allow a bitch to go unaltered without producing puppies, the more you increase (greatly) her chance of developing mammary cancer. A good friend recently just went thought this with her yorkie and it was very, very difficult. She had the tumors removed but there is no guarantee that the cancer is completely gone, and it very well can move into other parts such as bones, which is highly undetectable and causes quick death.


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## Leslie

Years ago we lost our unaltered Sheltie bitch to lung cancer. It had originated as mammary cancer  If I'd only known then what I know now. RIP Casey.


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## lfung5

My big issue with reading this thread is, leaving a dog for 10 hours. That's a LONG time for a breed that needs people. At the very least, see if you can set up an x pen with a bed, food, water, pee pad and toys. Even better, hire someone to come and walk them at lunch.
I think he's marking, because he's not neutered and you have an in tact female in the house............. :der:
Also, my Bella is a female and she marks outside just as much as my boys, if not more.

If he did come from a puppymill, that's most likely the reason he is so scared. He was not socialized correctly or at all. It's gonna take a lot of work and patience on your part. Unfortunately, puppymill dogs may never get over there fearfulness. It surprises me you didn't know the breeder was a puppymiller. This subject is discussed over and over on the forum, like a broken record I hope things work out and you end up keeping him.
. Good luck.


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## KrisE

*Coco and Mocha Just in From a Brisk Romp*

I thought I'd check-in with a progress report. Coco still thinks EVERYTHING is hers and Mocha is being a total gentleman about it. He's really coming out of his shell. He still wants to mark, but when I can't watch him, I put a belly band on him and that seems to be working well for my sanity.

I took these pictures a moment ago while they were in the playpen from outside. Coco had a chewy she wanted to enjoy so she went into "HER" playpen to do so.

My son was home yesterday so Mocha didn't have to endure a long day alone. Tomorrow, I will have to leave him alone in the pen for the day. Of course I'll give him toys, water and a puppy pad.

Anyone who's actually read my questions about this playpen vs a kennel would know I'm not an idiot to leave a dog without water or a means to relieve himself for any lenght of tiime. There are MANY on this forum who have to work from 8-5. Stop with the soap box, miss better than thou eace:

I'm bringing them into the vet today, mostly to check on Mocha. He might have an ear infection and I want his teeth cleaned.

As far as arguing whether I was smart or not in getting Mocha. It's all in how you define "puppy mill". I know of many legitimate breeders who have a kennel to seperate the boys from the girls and have 4-5 of each gender. That doesn't make them inhumane. Heck, I see some talking about their new litter every other month. I'm getting a bit sick of the snotty attitude of some. If you want to judge me for taking in a 2.5 yo boy, so be it. I don't care about your judgements. I knew he wasn't in the best situation, I wanted to give him a good home.

If you want to support me in making a good home for Mocha, thank you!:clap2:


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## Paradise Havs

Have lots of patience! We added Rosa to our gang at 1 1/2. Even though she came from fabulous breeders as a retired champion and housebroken, it took at least 3 months until I could trust her out of her crate when I was gone. She was a delight from day 1, but it also took about 3 months for her personality to really come out. You have taken on a challenge so hang in there!

i am wondering why you chose a play pen. One accident in it and it is an invitation to pee there again! How about a large crate or ex-pen? I agree that 10 hours is way to long to leave a dog! Can you hire a responsible teenager to come in once or twice during the day?


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## KrisE

Please read my post thoroughly. I think I already mentioned I'd put a potty pad on one side so he can tinkle. 

I'd rather he pee'd in a larger pen where he can distinguish resting area/pee area with tinkle pad than leave him to have an accident in a crate and be a dirty dog. I'm hoping he will be able to hold it, I'll see how that goes tomorrow.

I might need to crate him someday and don't want him thinking it's ok to pee in a travel crate. I am not going to hire or ask a neighbor to let them out. My son does get home at 3pm from school, but I can't depend upon him.

If I get one more person asking me to find someone to let him out daily, you'll be ignored.


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## KrisE

Actually, my hubby is leaving with my son tonight for up north to visit a university who wants to recruit him. They're staying over at my Mothers for the night. They can bring back the X-pen on Thursday so that might work as well. Maybe I'll just leave him in the laundry room for the day with a pee pad while I wait. 

This pen is quite big and has a canvas/washable bottom. I really don't mind if he pee's in it. I'd rather that, thank have his scratch marks all over the landry room door. I'll try putting him in the pen for an hour with the band on to see if he tries to mark it or scratch at it. I'm bringing him in at 4 to the vet's office. I'll ask her what she thinks. 

Eventually he's going to be like the majority of dogs in this world and have to wait til someone gets home to let him out. Coco did fine peeing on the pee pad all this time I've been working long hours. I got Mocha to keep her company. 

I can't keep Mocha in a band all day long though so until I can trust him not to mark the house, I have to find an alternative.


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## Pixiesmom

Kris, I bought a wire expen (actually two) from Petco and broke down the second pen and made a top. When Pixie was a puppy, she scaled the gate like Spiderman, so I needed something with a top. She really doesn't need to be in there now when we're gone, but she likes it! She'll go in and out of it when I'm home. There's plenty of room for her Ugodog in the corner, a corner shaped bed, and her food and toys. I have it by the slider and she can look out into the yard. It is not fun to shell out more $$ for more dog stuff, but maybe that could be an alternative that you wouldn't have to worry about.


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## KrisE

coco's breeder recommended this graco plack n play sport to take to shows when I was going to show coco because it folds up and can be used as a potty and placed in a hotel room with the top on so they can't climb out. The base is washable. 

I linked to the picture of it with the top. I'll put him in it with his band on for awhile, see what he does when he's shut in there.


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## lfung5

My apologizes for being harsh. There are a couple things that are sensitive subjects with me and thats, puppymills and leaving a dog alone for hours on end. I know a lot of forum members do it, but that doesn't mean I agree with it. I don't think I'm better than you, by having a dog walker. My heart just goes out the the pups. Your setup looks good and at least they have each other. 
I've been to puppymills and have seen the dogs up close. It's very sad. I don't agree with even small scale bad breeding. If the person breeding can't keep the dogs comfortable in a loving environment and provide the socialization need to be a healthy sound pup, they have no business breeding. This is a living breathing thing. That's just my opinion and it's not directed at you.

Lots of luck. The 2 of them are adorable. I really like the chocolates.


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## PepperToast

I think the play pen is a good idea. You really just want him to chill out while you are gone. Hopefully (insert fingers crossed emoticon here) his marking will settle down and eventually he can hang out with Coco but really they'll just lay about while you are gone. And, I do agree not to kennel for that long. It certainly is thoughtful of you to provide him with an opportunity to go if he needs to, more thoughtful than caging and forcing his hand to tinkle in his cage (which in my opinion is a worse issue to solve). 

I hope his vet visit goes well and any ear issue is quickly resolved. 

Stay strong in you what you believe. Only you can know all your circumstances and Mocha's too. 

By the way, Coco and Mocha are just delicious. On their own they would be cute but together.... I think I have some chocolate stashed somewhere.... see ya :bolt:


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## gelbergirl

they look like the best of buddies !


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## Kathy

Linda, I agree with you and appauld you for stating what I too believe to be important for companion dogs especially in regards to how long to be alone on a daily basis they should be left. There are exceptions to every rule of course, but for the most part leaving a companion dog along for 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, can be hard on the dog.


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## KrisE

FYI: When I got Coco, I wasn't working these long ours. Life has changed so I thought it would be nice for Coco to have a friend around with her. 

She is well adjusted and settles down quickly when Mommy gets home. I actually am gone from 9am til 6-9pm. My son gets home at 3 if he chooses to come home. Hubby gets home around 5:30. 

We had a hard time with the two last night, I'm just exhausted. Mocha couldn't relax for more than a few hours, they'd both jump down and I'd have to get up to get his belly band on him after letting them out. 

We might have to lock them out of our bed now if this keeps up. I'm preying it's his ears. He's panting alot as well when he lays down and it takes forever for him to stop moving around to find the perfect spot to lay. The vet should be able to discern what the issues are. 

I put him in his playpen about 15 minutes ago, he's not too happy with me. Par for the course.


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## pjewel

I don't know whether this fits your situation at all but one of the other things I did for my latest hav Ruby was to buy an inexpensive roll of linoleum. I put in in the whole area under and around her crate/pen set-up and it was wonderful for her and for me. I haven't worried at all and it's easy as pie to clean up.

They look adorable together. I'm sure you'll get through this early integration time and be happy that Coco has her companion. My guys always take a minimum of two weeks to start to accept the newcomer/interloper, but after that they are wonderful together.


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## mellowbo

lfung5 said:


> My apologizes for being harsh. There are a couple things that are sensitive subjects with me and thats, puppymills and leaving a dog alone for hours on end. I know a lot of forum members do it, but that doesn't mean I agree with it. I don't think I'm better than you, by having a dog walker. My heart just goes out the the pups. Your setup looks good and at least they have each other.
> I've been to puppymills and have seen the dogs up close. It's very sad. I don't agree with even small scale bad breeding. If the person breeding can't keep the dogs comfortable in a loving environment and provide the socialization need to be a healthy sound pup, they have no business breeding. This is a living breathing thing. That's just my opinion and it's not directed at you.


Linda, You have stated my feelings exactly. We all have our own opinions and that doesn't necessarily make us right or wrong/ good or bad. We all also have our own set of circumstances to deal with. Everyone is just trying to help with the best of intentions.


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## KrisE

Anyone know what works best?
1. leave him alone in the playpen tomorrow
2. put both Coco and Mocha in there together

He seems upset when he's left alone. 

Dang, if he wouldn't spray, I wouldn't be dealing with this. 

I will be alone tonight and really need some sleep. I reschedule things meant for today to bring him in. I'm going to nap now. I closed the door and they seem be ok for now with iit. If it is an ear ache that's making him so fidgity, it will take a few days to recouperate enoughto lay without discomfort. 

Both Bill and I enjoy having our pets sleep with us and it helps make up for time spent alone.


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## pjewel

If the space is big enough I think I'd try to keep them together. Although, that having been said, when I have to go out I still keep Ruby in her crate/pen area in the kitchen with the other having free reign. As long as she sees them and they can get as close to her as they like, it works fine. Most of the time when I come back, she's been napping in her open crate.


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## Julie

I'm just catching up to this thread and wanted to say congrats on your new dog KrisE and it was nice to see Coco again.

I have a few questions if you don't mind--
How is Coco doing now? I read the whole thread,but I mean with her legs and stuff or did I miss where you posted that update?
It caught my eye,being from Iowa myself....but did your Mocha come from Iowa? There are not very many breeders here(at least when I was looking for Quince) so that is why it caught my eye.

I'm not here to judge you....so if you don't want to answer any of my questions then don't.....I was curious.

It just doesn't seem like a good idea to me to keep the dogs together since they are both in tact if you are not wanting to have puppies. I had thought that you had been disappointed in Coco for breeding/showing with her defects,so I'm just kinda confused why she wasn't spayed or why you'd get an intact male. I'm not judging you at all---just curious and wanting to understand the situation.


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## pjewel

Oops! I forgot about the fact that they're both intact. I would definitely wait to keep them in the same space till they both have the surgery.


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## good buddy

KrisE said:


> Anyone know what works best?
> 1. leave him alone in the playpen tomorrow
> 2. put both Coco and Mocha in there together


Don't put them together until they are spayed/neutered.


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## Beamer

An x-pen will not stop them from 'getting it on' right? Do they have to be seperated even when not in heat? 

Ryan


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## Julie

I don't think I'd even take a chance Ryan myself-----not given Coco's legs etc. Maybe they are better now? But still---that'd be a shame to pass that heart break on that KrisE went through by doing that again with puppies. Even if her legs were corrected,it's a deformity that'd surely be passed on?

I was just thinking about this more---and I don't even have any idea if KrisE is planning on having puppies....but it reminded me of when we were looking for shelties (and later found Vincent),but I visited a breeder with sheltie puppies and saw her set up. Nice people,beautiful beautiful kennel set up....but her shelties were a mixed bag. She had bred 2 blue merles and that is a big no-no. She had one completely blind that did nothing but turn in circles the entire time we were there(about 1 1/2 hours). I'm not sure why she kept that dog,but it scared the crap out of me and I ran. My kids and hubby were shocked as all get out because the goal was to bring home a puppy....but I walked because they did not have a puppy I was willing to take a chance on. It was hard to walk,but yet at the same time I wasn't gonna risk buying a puppy when even I knew better then to breed 2 blue merles and I've never bred a dog in my life. The puppy she had "for me" could not stand on his own legs. He layed and no amount of help could get this puppy to stand or play or anything. A few weeks later.....I found my Vinnie boy running and playing with his sister and he had all the right sheltie traits. Thank goodness I had enough courage to say no and walk the first time.

I was thinking.......what happens if you breed or accidently breed 2 chocolate havs? Is that the same as 2 blue merles in the sheltie breed?


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## lfung5

:tape:


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## KrisE

*BAD NEWS ABOUT Mr Mocha*

I brought him in to get a check-up and not only does he have a heart murur (3 out of 6), he has a luxating patella (5 out of 6). I told her not to bother with liver shunt or eyes exam at that point. I'd was crying by then.

I called the breeder and she of course was too busy to talk about when to deliver him back to her for my money back, she's gonna call me back.

Last time she did this, she called after she'd "talked to another breeder" and wouldn't take him back because he was marking.

Fine, I don't have to fly to DC this time to fight a battle. I can report to puppyfind, the IA Ag Dept and sue in court. I hope she comes to her senses because there is NO WAY I'm taking on such a mess.

My Vet said I'm looking at some surgery. I canNOT believe she kept 2 of his babies to breed. Ignorance? doubt it. Julie showed me how bad his back hip was. I thought I noticed something, but figured it might just be his discomfort wearing the band. I kept checking to see if it was too tight LOL

I'm not going to be bullied this time. Puppyfind took my negative feedback on Havanique off because "I didn't find him through puppyfind". I can prove this time that I did find her through their site and this would cost her much more than 550.00 in the long run.

If she wants me to drive the 4 hours to her facility, I'll be sure to bring a camera for everyone's education as well.

When meeting, I sat in that dang car for quite some time while she contemplated a one week provision against congenital disease. Thank GOD I told her and meant it that I'd walk if I didn't have some type of guarantee for health!

No issues with the ears other than the hair hasn't been plucked in ages. My vet pulled them for me, should help his comfort.

Good news: Coco is in great health and lovely. She now weighs 10.5 lbs LOL. lil fatty.


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## Havtahava

Oh good! Coco's legs are good now?


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## KrisE

Yes, Julie doesn't think there will be any issues. I won't be training her for agility though JIC


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Is it a bad idea to say who this breeder is, if so will someone will email me privately? Thank you. I am so very sorry about Mr. Mocha, I am sorry for you as the owner, and so very very sorry for him.


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## KrisE

I would appreicate it the name be kept off this forum for obvious reasons. 

I'm still amazed I'd get a health guarantee with so many issues. The only thing I can think is there was no vet visit. Just shots given at home. 

I wish those who breed, would take the pride, effort and small expense to ensure they're breeding healthy stock. If you saw the pedigree behind him, you'd be astonished.


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## mellowbo

Kept two of his babies to breed?? AND had other litters from him?? OMG. Maybe some authorities need to pay a visit to her house if that's possible. Does anyone know if that is something that can be arranged?
I feel so bad for Mocha!


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## KrisE

I just had to give the bad news to my husband and son. I truly believe there's a special place in hell for these types of people. 
I don't know about the laws in IA, but if she plays any games with me, I'll find out. She's so much better off re-homing him with someone who can spend time with Mocha when he will need hip surgery and possibly heart medication. What is interesting is the health tests given to me of his parents. I wonder if these can be forged by an unscrupulous breeder?

He's so getting used to our home. He's asking to get up with me right now. I'm sad and angry right now.


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## Scooter's Family

Kris-Why not give him to HRI? He would get the care he needs and could then be adopted out to a home that would care for him and you'd have peace of mind knowing he wouldn't be going back to someone who obviously doesn't have his health and best interest at heart.

What was your vet's comment when you presented all of the health testing on him? Did you also receive his vet records when he came to you?


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## KrisE

Funny you mentioned HRI. I filled out an adoption form and never heard back. 

I didn't bring the health testing of his parents to the vet. The breeder told me she doesn't believe in testing since his parents were. I considered it a somewhat of a health guarantee for Mocha myself as well. I was surprised at the outcome today. 

I'm waiting for the breeders call. If she refuses to take him in return, I'll list him for rehoming with full disclosure. Hopefully someone with financial resources and time will respond.


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## Scooter's Family

Did you fill out a form to adopt a dog or to surrender Mr? Adoption forms can take a long time, not many pups and lots of people who want to adopt, and everyone working within HRI is a volunteer.

Just to clarify for me (duh), was Mr. used for breeding? If so, shouldn't the breeder have tested him as well? Or do the tests of the parents have some value in that respect? I have no idea, just wondering how all of the testing stuff works.


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## lfung5

I'm sorry to hear about all his health problems, but I'm not surprised. You really should consider surrendering him to HRI. I know you said in a previous post, you wanted to get him out of that bad situation. Well, this is your chance to do what's right for him, to find a happy home and get the surgeries he needs. You're going to have to place him in a loving home and not worry about the money. I don't think many people will want to pay money for a dog that's not socialized and has so many health problems. Maybe this will teach someone else a valuable lesson.... If the health testing is not posted on OFFA site, the dogs were most likely not tested. These bad breeders will have an answer for everything. Health Guarantee's are a bunch a crap! Most people don't return dogs!!


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## KrisE

I'm going to wait to hear from the breeder first. 

He's shown alot of improvemnt and I have NO PROOF he's been abused in any way. I highly doubt he's been abused. 
I really don't want to introduce him into another new environment then another after that if I can avoid it. 
I'm washing my hands of someone elses problems other than to try and do my best to give him a new home while he's here.


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## Brady's mom

Kris, 
I understand that you are disheartened and concerned about getting your money back, but would you please reconsider returning this poor dog to this "breeder". Clearly, you have now realized that she is not taking good care of her dogs and I have a hard time hearing you discuss returning him to this horrible situation. I understand that $550 is a lot of money for you to part with, but you said before that you were doing this to give this dog a good home. The way to do that is to turn him over to Havanese Rescue and make sure that he gets the help he needs and goes to a good forever home. If this woman is a puppy mill, which is sounds like she is, she could just shoot him or in a good world, put him down with a vet (that is unlikely to happen). I can't see her investing the money in making sure he gets well.

I want to share my Mom's story of getting her adult havanese so that others can see how to go about this in the future. When my Mom decided she wanted an adult dog, we contacted many of the reputable breeders we knew of. Bacca was a retired breeder (although only a year and half old). The breeder did not have use for him in her breeding program and decided that even though he was a Canadian and American Champion, she wanted to place him in a pet home. She had him neutered before my Mom got him. She interviewed my Mom to make sure she was the right home for him, and she even flew him to Philadelphia from Florida under the seat in the plane to hand deliver him to my Mom. Yes, my Mom paid $1800 plus the flight for him, but he was worth every penny. He was fully health tested and everything the breeder said he would be. Please, if you (that is anyone reading this) are considering an older dog, either rescue or go to a reputable breeder who can document everything and give you references. "Rescuing" a dog from a puppymill or bad situation only helps those millers buy more dogs to put in that bad situation. 

Okay, I will get off my soapbox. I have had a hard time reading this thread. I try not to get into any controversial discussions around here, but I couldn't stay quiet here. My heart breaks that you are considering returning this dog to this horrible situation. He needs medical help and I hope you will truly rescue him and send him somewhere he can get the help he needs.


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## Kathy

KrisE said:


> I'll put him in it with his band on for awhile, see what he does when he's shut in there.


Why would you put a belly band on a dog if the dog is confined?


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## KrisE

*There are currently four havanese listed up for adoption in MN alone on HRI*

Most of the havanese available for rescue on the HRI site are right here in Minnesota.



Scooter's Family said:


> Did you fill out a form to adopt a dog or to surrender Mr? Adoption forms can take a long time, not many pups and lots of people who want to adopt, and everyone working within HRI is a volunteer.
> 
> Just to clarify for me (duh), was Mr. used for breeding? If so, shouldn't the breeder have tested him as well? Or do the tests of the parents have some value in that respect? I have no idea, just wondering how all of the testing stuff works.


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## lfung5

A puppy that was not properly socialized will be timid, shy, fearful etc.


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## KrisE

*I wanted to see if he would tinkle*

I really don't care if he tinkles in there or not. Someone else seemed concerned. I was just testing the waters



Kathy said:


> Why would you put a belly band on a dog if the dog is confined?


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## Brady's mom

HRI has dogs all over the country. They will fly dogs to foster homes if necessary and will take care of them until they are adopted into a forever home.


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## KrisE

*I'm happy for your Mother*

As far as accusing this breeder of abusing her dogs, it's hogwash. Yes, she has bad breeding practices, but there is no proof from the ved that he's been abused. He already comes to my voice and wags his tail. He acted very similar to my Coco when in an unfamiliar situation.

I will wait for the breeder to contact me. I probably won't be handing him over to HRI and another home to get accustomed to when he's perfectly fine here til I decide what to do...

Soap boxes seem abundant here



Brady's mom said:


> Kris,
> I understand that you are disheartened and concerned about getting your money back, but would you please reconsider returning this poor dog to this "breeder". Clearly, you have now realized that she is not taking good care of her dogs and I have a hard time hearing you discuss returning him to this horrible situation. I understand that $550 is a lot of money for you to part with, but you said before that you were doing this to give this dog a good home. The way to do that is to turn him over to Havanese Rescue and make sure that he gets the help he needs and goes to a good forever home. If this woman is a puppy mill, which is sounds like she is, she could just shoot him or in a good world, put him down with a vet (that is unlikely to happen). I can't see her investing the money in making sure he gets well.
> 
> I want to share my Mom's story of getting her adult havanese so that others can see how to go about this in the future. When my Mom decided she wanted an adult dog, we contacted many of the reputable breeders we knew of. Bacca was a retired breeder (although only a year and half old). The breeder did not have use for him in her breeding program and decided that even though he was a Canadian and American Champion, she wanted to place him in a pet home. She had him neutered before my Mom got him. She interviewed my Mom to make sure she was the right home for him, and she even flew him to Philadelphia from Florida under the seat in the plane to hand deliver him to my Mom. Yes, my Mom paid $1800 plus the flight for him, but he was worth every penny. He was fully health tested and everything the breeder said he would be. Please, if you (that is anyone reading this) are considering an older dog, either rescue or go to a reputable breeder who can document everything and give you references. "Rescuing" a dog from a puppymill or bad situation only helps those millers buy more dogs to put in that bad situation.
> 
> Okay, I will get off my soapbox. I have had a hard time reading this thread. I try not to get into any controversial discussions around here, but I couldn't stay quiet here. My heart breaks that you are considering returning this dog to this horrible situation. He needs medical help and I hope you will truly rescue him and send him somewhere he can get the help he needs.


----------



## Scooter's Family

I don't understand your reasoning. Are you going to keep him and have the surgeries needed for him to be healthy and live a long life? Are you asking the breeder for a refund? What is it you're waiting to hear about from her?

Are you upset with HRI because you didn't hear back from someone about your application?


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## KrisE

Oh good, tomorrow is taken care of. My son's GF is coming over after school to let the dogs out and play with them


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## lfung5

(QUOTE)I will wait for the breeder to contact me. I probably won't be handing him over to HRI and another home to get accustomed to when he's perfectly fine here til I decide what to do... 

I just hope you do what's best for him. It seems you are way too concerned about the money you stand to lose, than the dog. I hope I'm wrong. I don't think 500.00 is a lot of money when a life is at stake.


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## Brady's mom

I think it is fair to assume he is from a puppy mill. She is a USDA breeder and that usually means puppy mill. I just hope this dog is put into a good situation. Kris, you bought him. You took him home and you owe it to him to make sure he gets well and is well cared for. If you do return him to her, I hope you take him back personally and see where she will keep him and make sure he will be safe. We all just want to see you do right by this dog.

As for my soap box and everyone elses, you came to us for help and you have even stated that you didn't come from the best of places. Now you can see why we all preach so much about that.


----------



## KrisE

I'm done with all the questions. Judge away



Scooter's Family said:


> I don't understand your reasoning. Are you going to keep him and have the surgeries needed for him to be healthy and live a long life? Are you asking the breeder for a refund? What is it you're waiting to hear about from her?
> 
> Are you upset with HRI because you didn't hear back from someone about your application?


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## Scooter's Family

I'm not judging you, I'm simply asking questions. When you asked for advice it was given freely and I just want to understand where you're coming from. 

Everyone here cares about these dogs.


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## LilyMyLove

*Wow.*



KrisE said:


> I would appreicate it the name be kept off this forum for obvious reasons.
> 
> I'm still amazed I'd get a health guarantee with so many issues. The only thing I can think is there was no vet visit. Just shots given at home.
> 
> I wish those who breed, would take the pride, effort and small expense to ensure they're breeding healthy stock. If you saw the pedigree behind him, you'd be astonished.


What is astonishing to me is the irony in this comment. You could have easily been in the same situation after putting an intact stud in the house with your unspayed female who you went through what (according to the Coco thread) was incredible heartache and expense due to her extensive health problems. :frusty:

Reading this thread after that one is like Groundhog's Day. I'm sorry if you feel I am being unkind, but I am really more concerned about the welfare of this little animal. You stated that "You gave a 2.5 year old dog a home" like you were doing it out of the goodness of your heart but as soon as there are issues you throw the dog back to the bad environment you "rescued' him from.

I can understand not being able to afford these exorbinant surgeries, but perhaps you can find it within the goodness of your heart to give the dog up to HRI, an to a family and forever home that can spend the time and money necessary to care for this animal. The $550.00 you spent can be chalked up to what hopefully amounts to a learning experience _this time_ maybe it will stick.

I am having a very hard time being "tactful" responding to this and applaud others for having the diplomacy I do not. 

Earlier in the thread you responded defensively to other people's criticisms. When you ask advice and help from people, and involve them in this situation, unfortunately you cannot choose only kind supportive reactions.


----------



## KrisE

YOU have absolutely no proof he came from an uncaring environment nor do you have any proof he will end up in a bad enviroment whether I place him, his original breeder places him or HRI places him.


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## Kathy

Very well stated. I think there are many here who feel the same as you, myself included.

KrisE - We urge you to turn the dog over to HRI if you no longer want him. He will get the care he needs. From what you said, the "breeder" obviously doesn't want him anymore, but there is someone in this world that would.



LilyMyLove said:


> What is astonishing to me is the irony in this comment. You could have easily been in the same situation after putting an intact stud in the house with your unspayed female who you went through what (according to the Coco thread) was incredible heartache and expense due to her extensive health problems. :frusty:
> 
> Reading this thread after that one is like Groundhog's Day. I'm sorry if you feel I am being unkind, but I am really more concerned about the welfare of this little animal. You stated that "You gave a 2.5 year old dog a home" like you were doing it out of the goodness of your heart but as soon as there are issues you throw the dog back to the bad environment you "rescued' him from.
> 
> I can understand not being able to afford these exorbinant surgeries, but perhaps you can find it within the goodness of your heart to give the dog up to HRI, an to a family and forever home that can spend the time and money necessary to care for this animal. The $550.00 you spent can be chalked up to what hopefully amounts to a learning experience _this time_ maybe it will stick.
> 
> I am having a very hard time being "tactful" responding to this and applaud others for having the diplomacy I do not.
> 
> Earlier in the thread you responded defensively to other people's criticisms. When you ask advice and help from people, and involve them in this situation, unfortunately you cannot choose only kind supportive reactions.


----------



## Scooter's Family

Kris - YOU questioned the integrity of this breeder, nobody else did as we don't even know who it is. Now that you didn't get exactly what you wanted you're pissed off, and rightly so, but for God's sake don't give that dog back to that breeder.

What did you want people to say to you? I'm amazed that people pose questions and then get angry when the answers they get aren't exactly what they wanted to hear.

Apparently this dog will need major medical care that will be costly. HRI will do that and then be sure he goes to a good home after doing a home visit and thoroughly screening any applicants for foster or adoption.


----------



## ama0722

KrisE said:


> YOU have absolutely no proof he came from an uncaring environment nor do you have any proof he will end up in a bad enviroment whether I place him, his original breeder places him or HRI places him.





KrisE said:


> I brought him in to get a check-up and not only does he have a heart murur (3 out of 6), he has a luxating patella (5 out of 6). I told her not to bother with liver shunt or eyes exam at that point. I'd was crying by then.
> 
> I called the breeder and she of course was too busy to talk about when to deliver him back to her for my money back, she's gonna call me back.
> 
> Last time she did this, she called after she'd "talked to another breeder" and wouldn't take him back because he was marking.
> 
> .


I am not sure what is considered a caring environment to you but I would say it is one that gets proper medical care and any vet should see this right away. A grade 5 patella (I know most consider 4 the highest but 5 is when the dog can't even walk on that leg at all). To be honest with that, I am shocked he can even lift his leg to mark.

I posted before but this "breeder" is usda license which means she is licensed to sell dogs to pet stores and over the internet. I dont think the word caring ever goes with that.


----------



## LilyMyLove

KrisE said:


> YOU have absolutely no proof he came from an uncaring environment nor do you have any proof he will end up in a bad enviroment whether I place him, his original breeder places him or HRI places him.


*Um....I don't have any proof, I'm just going on what YOU have said yourself. 
*
About the "breeder":
_"If you want to judge me for taking in a 2.5 yo boy, so be it. I don't care about your judgements. I knew he wasn't in the best situation, I wanted to give him a good home. "

"If you want to support me in making a good home for Mocha, thank you!

"The problem is he was in a kennel and seems has had very little socialization"

"I was a bit concerned because he almost seemed as if he'd been abused due to the fear he's displaying with us."

"Now, another issue has cropped up. He's marking all over the house when I was specifically told by the breeder he doesn't do this. I called and asked if I could pay more and get the female puppy instead because of this and she refuses. "

"I've also already bathed him because he didn't smell so great. In addition, his breath is aweful to see she obviously hasn't EVER taken care of his teeth. He's got loads of tartar in his poor mouth. She obviously has no dental hygene in place for the many dogs she breeds. How sad. "

"I think everyone was right in reading into this that she's just another nasty puppy mill who uses dogs she neglects for financial gain."

"I brought him in to get a check-up and not only does he have a heart murur (3 out of 6), he has a luxating patella (5 out of 6). I told her not to bother with liver shunt or eyes exam at that point. I'd was crying by then.
When meeting, I sat in that dang car for quite some time while she contemplated a one week provision against congenital disease. Thank GOD I told her and meant it that I'd walk if I didn't have some type of guarantee for health! "

"I'm still amazed I'd get a health guarantee with so many issues. The only thing I can think is there was no vet visit. Just shots given at home. "

"I wish those who breed, would take the pride, effort and small expense to ensure they're breeding healthy stock."

"I truly believe there's a special place in hell for these types of people. "

"I called the breeder and she of course was too busy to talk about when to deliver him back to her for my money back, she's gonna call me back."_

*Perhaps maybe you can see why I might not think this is a wonderful environment for the dog to return to??!!!?
*

And by your own admission, youre house doesn't seem to be a great environment for him EITHER.:

_"Come Monday, he'll be stuck alone in a room from 8am til 6pm. What a terrible way to live."

"Do I take the band off on Monday while he stays in the pen 10 hours? I could buy a small normal kennel as well but she's not telling me in so many words that she thinks he could pee in there and then be laying in it all day long."

"I might need to crate him someday and don't want him thinking it's ok to pee in a travel crate. I am not going to hire or ask a neighbor to let them out. My son does get home at 3pm from school, but I can't depend upon him."

"We had a hard time with the two last night, I'm just exhausted. Mocha couldn't relax for more than a few hours, they'd both jump down and I'd have to get up to get his belly band on him after letting them out. 
We might have to lock them out of our bed now if this keeps up. I'm preying it's his ears. He's panting alot as well when he lays down and it takes forever for him to stop moving around to find the perfect spot to lay. The vet should be able to discern what the issues are. "

"He seems upset when he's left alone. "_

*....and you're surprised people are concerned? Your incredulity is truly ridiculous.*


----------



## PepperToast

What would be REALLY nice is if Mocha doesn't have to go back AND the breeder refunds money. That would be best case senario. I wonder if that is possible Kris. I rescued my toy poodle that way. I managed to get her AND not have the 'breeder' make a single red cent. So, perhaps we can brainstorm as to ways that this could come about.

Perhaps when you speak with her tomorrow, you can tell her you will make sure he gets the help he needs (that could mean giving him to HRI with his refund money minus the cost of today's vet visit) and take the money you paid for him to contribute to his necessary surgeries. Tell her you can fax her a vet report or she can contact your vet to discuss today's findings. (This can be paid for by her refund). Tell her you are giving her an opportunity to do right by this dog. Really, make it all about Mocha's health and wellbeing. This would make it hard for her to refuse you or she would look bad. 

In working with one 'breeder' she promised me that she was going to take a pup I was concerned about to the vet. I told her, if she provided me with her vet's name, I would pay the vet for the specific procedure this pup needed and I dealt directly with that vet. This forced her to take the dog in and be accountable to the vet and to me. I am not saying that you should do this but.... there are ways to get these poor pups from 'breeders' all the while not giving them one single penny.


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## LilyMyLove

PepperToast said:


> What would be REALLY nice is if Mocha doesn't have to go back AND the breeder refunds money. That would be best case senario. I wonder if that is possible Kris. I rescued my toy poodle that way. I managed to get her AND not have the 'breeder' make a single red cent. So, perhaps we can brainstorm as to ways that this could come about.
> 
> Perhaps when you speak with her tomorrow, *you can tell her you will make sure he gets the help he needs (that could mean giving him to HRI with his refund money minus the cost of today's vet visit) and take the money you paid for him to contribute to his necessary surgeries. * Tell her you can fax her a vet report or she can contact your vet to discuss today's findings. (This can be paid for by her refund). Tell her you are giving her an opportunity to do right by this dog. Really, make it all about Mocha's health and wellbeing. This would make it hard for her to refuse you or she would look bad.
> 
> In working with one 'breeder' she promised me that she was going to take a pup I was concerned about to the vet. I told her, if she provided me with her vet's name, I would pay the vet for the specific procedure this pup needed and I dealt directly with that vet. This forced her to take the dog in and be accountable to the vet and to me. I am not saying that you should do this but.... there are ways to get these poor pups from 'breeders' all the while not giving them one single penny.


Amen.


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## Evye's Mom

I am not in a position to advise, I do not wish to comment nor judge. I only wish Mocha the best possible outcome that he will placed in loving and caring hands and live a long, happy life. Well wishes Mocha.


----------



## KrisE

*that would be nice if she'd call me back*

I want a refund to go towards a new dog for our home. I don't mind giving him to HRI instead of the breeder, but that would be up to her or anyone else who wants to do the "right thing".

I will not be responsible for her problems. If anyone wants to donate 500 to have me give him to HRI, this would be another option.

I have a feeling she's going to make me take her to court. I really don't care to let her keep this money, knowing she's used him for 2 years with countless puppies sold to then place him in my hands to deal with. To be judged and scolded by a bunch of do nothing bleeding hearts who only have judgement to doll out.

I didn't get the impression his heart would be a big concern today. He hasn't had all the tests so could have other issues. Surgery for his knee looks like it's going to cost around 2,000.00.

This is where I stand.



PepperToast said:


> What would be REALLY nice is if Mocha doesn't have to go back AND the breeder refunds money. That would be best case senario. I wonder if that is possible Kris. I rescued my toy poodle that way. I managed to get her AND not have the 'breeder' make a single red cent. So, perhaps we can brainstorm as to ways that this could come about.
> 
> Perhaps when you speak with her tomorrow, you can tell her you will make sure he gets the help he needs (that could mean giving him to HRI with his refund money minus the cost of today's vet visit) and take the money you paid for him to contribute to his necessary surgeries. Tell her you can fax her a vet report or she can contact your vet to discuss today's findings. (This can be paid for by her refund). Tell her you are giving her an opportunity to do right by this dog. Really, make it all about Mocha's health and wellbeing. This would make it hard for her to refuse you or she would look bad.
> 
> In working with one 'breeder' she promised me that she was going to take a pup I was concerned about to the vet. I told her, if she provided me with her vet's name, I would pay the vet for the specific procedure this pup needed and I dealt directly with that vet. This forced her to take the dog in and be accountable to the vet and to me. I am not saying that you should do this but.... there are ways to get these poor pups from 'breeders' all the while not giving them one single penny.


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## Scooter's Family

KrisE said:


> I want a refund to go towards a new dog for our home. I don't mind giving him to HRI instead of the breeder, but that would be up to her or anyone else who wants to do the "right thing".
> 
> I will not be responsible for her problems. If anyone wants to donate 500 to have me give him to HRI, this would be another option.
> 
> I have a feeling she's going to make me take her to court. I really don't care to let her keep this money, knowing she's used him for 2 years with countless puppies sold to then place him in my hands to deal with. To be judged and scolded by a bunch of do nothing bleeding hearts who only have judgement to doll out.
> 
> I didn't get the impression his heart would be a big concern today. He hasn't had all the tests so could have other issues. Surgery for his knee looks like it's going to cost around 2,000.00.
> 
> This is where I stand.


ONLY HAVE JUDGEMENT TO DOLE OUT??? Are you joking? Now you want money for a dog you KNOW is in poor health?

I haven't judged, nor has anyone else in my opinion. You don't want opinions or even help Kris, you want someone to take your side and say "Poor Kris!" That's bs, you didn't do your homework, AGAIN, and now you want people to feel bad for you or bail you out. Guess who will suffer??? The dog! $500 isn't a lot of money when you think of what will be spent caring for any dog, healthy or not, over their lifetime but you want that back as opposed to surrendering him to an organization that will PROPERLY care for him and then place him in a loving home.

I may be judging now but you're making me sick.


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## KrisE

*It's interesting how people react when they're asked to do the right thing*

I'm done feeling responsible for breeders problems. She will take this dog back or I'll sue her. If someone feels she's going to do the wrong thing, they need to step up to the plate themselves.



Scooter's Family said:


> ONLY HAVE JUDGEMENT TO DOLE OUT??? Are you joking? Now you want money for a dog you KNOW is in poor health?
> 
> I haven't judged, nor has anyone else in my opinion. You don't want opinions or even help Kris, you want someone to take your side and say "Poor Kris!" That's bs, you didn't do your homework, AGAIN, and now you want people to feel bad for you or bail you out. Guess who will suffer??? The dog! $500 isn't a lot of money when you think of what will be spent caring for any dog, healthy or not, over their lifetime but you want that back as opposed to surrendering him to an organization that will PROPERLY care for him and then place him in a loving home.
> 
> I may be judging now but you're making me sick.


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## Scooter's Family

We're asking you to do the right thing and place this dog where he'll get the health care he needs. 

He's YOUR problem now, what are you going to do?


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## Brady's mom

You chose to buy this dog from this breeder. You need to accept responsibilty for your mistake and help this dog. If you don't care about doing the right thing by this dog, you shouldn't have pets.


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## LilyMyLove

So because you refuse to take responsibility for this little soul you brought into your home without doing the due dilligence I am a "do nothing bleeding heart(s) who only have judgement to doll out"?

You need to understand that when you take to the internet, and get people wrapped up in the life of this animal and your other Coco by posting details, asking for help, and bemoaning the depravity of the poor dog's situation you are emotionally blackmailing people to then say you're giving it back to a situation YOU YOURSELF characterized as bad and neglectful unless these "do nothing bleeding hearts" donate 500 dollars. 

You have absolutely no excuse for your role in finding yourself in this predicament because you were well versed in good responsible breeder behavior and standards especially after all your drama with your first Havanese. 

At this point I AM judging you. I think your behavior is disgusting. I hope that you can get help for your problems without roping helpless animals in to fill the vast emotional void you have.


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## ama0722

I think doing the right thing started before you started this thread-doing the right thing was not buying another dog off the internet. If someone steps up to "rescue" aka pay for this dog from Kris who clearly cares more about money than this dog- you are saving one dog. Unfortunately this breeder has other dogs on puppyfind already. Kris supported her and encouraged her to breed again with buying this dog. I think it is the same as buying a dog directly from the mill, while it saves the one dog, you are paying for it and thereby adding to the problem 

BTW, I have opend my home and wallet to several mill dogs.


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## Evye's Mom

Brady's mom said:


> You chose to buy this dog from this breeder. You need to accept responsibilty for your mistake and help this dog. If you don't care about doing the right thing by this dog, you shouldn't have pets.


The definition of insanity is...."repeating the same behavior and expecting a different result". There is no $ compensation. Live and learn and do the right thing.


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## Leslie

LilyMyLove said:


> *Stepping back and looking at this and the other posts KrisE has made I believe this person to be a potential scam artist, using this forum as way to make money off of some terrible decisions. It is just too coincidental that she comes here and tells all about the sweet new dog she has (twice!) and shares concerns then suddenly reports about the dogs sad and costly health problems with her hand out. I will not be interacting with her any further, and I would encourage others to do the same. This is obviously a very sad situation but it is apparent that nothing can be done to help out these animals. I think our efforts, time and attention would be better spent elsewhere.*


AND we don't even know if what she says/writes is even true. Does Mocha (in the condition she reports) even exist???


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## maryam187

Kris, I am one of those people who think a lot can come across wrong over the internet and am always trying to see both sides. Frankly, I am shocked to see that you purchased Coco #2 from a place like that after all that you've been through with Coco #1 and all the help, support, and knowledgeable information you received from all of us here. If I recall it correctly, you were even glad that your heartbreak with Coco#1 and the thread you posted on this public forum would be a lesson and wake-up call for other potential buyers.
In your case it is truly hard not to be judgmental because you've been there, done that not too long ago and 100's of us WITNESSED it. How did you expect us to interpret this situation? I'm a little baffled.


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## Paige

I am saddened by what you have posted here Krise. I have been in your situation, my sweet Preston has cd in his front legs. He started limping at a young age and I had him xrayed. Good legs or bad, he is still my baby. I opted not to have surgery done on him, but was willing to if needed. I understand that Mocha's medical could be a expense that your family can't afford. But you really need to ask yourself if giving up the money paid for him and giving him to HRI is something you can do and teach your children about caring for all living creatures. Mocha wasn't your problem until you chose him, now it's your choice to make the right decision for him.


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## KrisE

I made an agreement with this woman that if this dog had any physical issues, she needed to take him back. I purposely didn't allow myself to get bonded with this dog until I had him at the vet's office. I had coco for a long time before I was informed of her condition. This is what breeders know. I talked to my vet today about this problem... They know we will keep these dogs because we've bonded with them. 

I'm already getting text messages from my son asking to keep Mocha. He will have to learn a hard lesson in life. Life isn't fair for humans or animals. There are people out there who need to be taken to court in order to right a wrong. 

I've already read up on how to make this woman's life miserable and save many others from this same fate. I'll sue her, then send the judgment to the IA state Ag Agency. In the meantime, lets see how long puppyfind allows my negative review to remain on her profile.... 

He had the same papers any of you would ask for to determine his health. Those who say I didn't do my homework are wrong. I searched for a week and thought about this before I made this decision to purchase Mocha. 

I'm flabbergasted the attacks I'm seeing. Accused of being a con artist, are you kidding me??????????????

I don't care if everyone thinks I'm cruel. I kept coco and will give her surgery if ever she needs it. I might hand Mocha over to an adoption agency if need be, but I won't take on another breeders problems through misrepresentation. She will pay for what she's put my family through in many ways.

Screw every one of you for trying to bully me into doing what YOU want. When people have come to me for assistance, I've always gone out of my way to help without bullying, accusing or judging. 

Rest assured, I've asked to be delisted from this forum and will not respond any further. You're rid of my con artist, cruel self. May the Havanese gods bless you with little bundles of joy, never to be conned or abused by others for wanting to bring a canine into your home to find another of many breeders willing to do anything for the all mighty dollar.


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## pjewel

My prayers are with Mocha. I hope he gets the life he deserves. God bless him.


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## marjrc

*"Anyone who's actually read my questions about this playpen vs a kennel would know I'm not an idiot to leave a dog without water or a means to relieve himself for any lenght of tiime. There are MANY on this forum who have to work from 8-5. Stop with the soap box, miss better than thou

I'm bringing them into the vet today, mostly to check on Mocha. He might have an ear infection and I want his teeth cleaned.

As far as arguing whether I was smart or not in getting Mocha. It's all in how you define "puppy mill". I know of many legitimate breeders who have a kennel to seperate the boys from the girls and have 4-5 of each gender. That doesn't make them inhumane. Heck, I see some talking about their new litter every other month. I'm getting a bit sick of the snotty attitude of some. If you want to judge me for taking in a 2.5 yo boy, so be it. I don't care about your judgements. I knew he wasn't in the best situation, I wanted to give him a good home.

If you want to support me in making a good home for Mocha, thank you!"*

Omg. I cant' even finish reading this thread because I'm livid. Excuse me??? How arrogant, how rude, and what nerve you have talking like this!! How dare you speak to some of the members like you do!!

You make absolutely no sense and give us no reason to believe you have both your dogs' best interest at heart.  :rant: You are one complicated woman, Kris. Sorry to say this, but I dont' trust your motives for one second. UGH! I'm so angry I could spit!!!!!

I dont' even know if I want to finish reading the thread and i'm only at post #100 !!


----------



## Julie

KrisE said:


> I made an agreement with this woman that if this dog had any physical issues, she needed to take him back. I purposely didn't allow myself to get bonded with this dog until I had him at the vet's office.
> 
> KrisE--if you made an agreement to return the dog with the breeder if he didn't all check out at the vet,then do that. I myself--would do that because of the money issue and if you know he wouldn't be harmed in some way. Of course HRI is a better option,but I know the financial aspect here at my house.
> 
> I had coco for a long time before I was informed of her condition.
> 
> I remember Coco being very very young when you discovered her health issues and you could of returned her too. I'm sure as just a matter of routine she had a vet check up shortly after arriving at your house.
> 
> There are people out there who need to be taken to court in order to right a wrong.
> 
> I've already read up on how to make this woman's life miserable and save many others from this same fate. I'll sue her, then send the judgment to the IA state Ag Agency. In the meantime, lets see how long puppyfind allows my negative review to remain on her profile....
> 
> You seem a bit "sue happy" in my opinion--absolutely in your face and confrontation. I remember this distinctly with Havanique as well. We all told you to try a nicer approach. This does make a person question your motives to be honest.
> 
> He had the same papers any of you would ask for to determine his health. Those who say I didn't do my homework are wrong. I searched for a week and thought about this before I made this decision to purchase Mocha.
> 
> 1 week is hardly any time to find a good quality havanese. I researched months and months and months before finding mine.
> 
> I'm flabbergasted the attacks I'm seeing. Accused of being a con artist, are you kidding me??????????????
> 
> Your sue comments and holding breeders to the fire makes you wonder. I wonder why you don't do the research yourself and get the knowledge yourself...that way you'll know exactly what's bull and what's not.I thought you had learned this from Coco 1. At some point you are gonna have to take responsibility for your own actions.
> 
> I don't care if everyone thinks I'm cruel. I kept coco and will give her surgery if ever she needs it. I might hand Mocha over to an adoption agency if need be, but I won't take on another breeders problems through misrepresentation. She will pay for what she's put my family through in many ways.
> 
> Same as above
> 
> Screw every one of you for trying to bully me into doing what YOU want.
> 
> I don't think anyone is bullying you. I think most people would like to see the male dog go to HRI because of it's reputation...and are trying to urge you to do this--not bully.
> 
> Rest assured, I've asked to be delisted from this forum and will not respond any further. You're rid of my con artist, cruel self. May the Havanese gods bless you with little bundles of joy, never to be conned or abused by others for wanting to bring a canine into your home to find another of many breeders willing to do anything for the all mighty dollar.


I haven't received your request. Do you want this thread closed? I can't delete your membership,but I can close this thread. Please simmer down everyone-chill out and don't post if you can't play nice. Disagreeing is okay,but statements like "screw you" KrisE really isn't playing nice. Thank you.

My responses are in red.


----------



## trueblue

I don't know if I remember correctly, so somebody just correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't the first Coco thread get to a point where KrisE was willing to accept money from forum members for Coco No. 1's medical problems or to fight the breeder or something like that?


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## marjrc

Exactamundo, Kim!


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## LilyMyLove

Interesting that in trying to find a companion to keep Coco company, another completely chocolate dog was chosen (Mr.Coco).

http://www.cpvh.com/Articles/78.html
Here it discusses four levels of luxating patellas, so a 5/6 must be horrible. poor dog!:drama:

After a little googling I found this info: a breeder in Iowa who also breeds both silkys and terriers! and has a sire named Coco as well! I'm not posting the website just some screen-grabs. :suspicious:


----------



## Scooter's Family

I found them last night too.

Things that make you go, Hmmm....


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## Thumper

marjrc said:


> *"Anyone who's actually read my questions about this playpen vs a kennel would know I'm not an idiot to leave a dog without water or a means to relieve himself for any lenght of tiime. There are MANY on this forum who have to work from 8-5. Stop with the soap box, miss better than thou
> 
> I'm bringing them into the vet today, mostly to check on Mocha. He might have an ear infection and I want his teeth cleaned.
> 
> As far as arguing whether I was smart or not in getting Mocha. It's all in how you define "puppy mill". I know of many legitimate breeders who have a kennel to seperate the boys from the girls and have 4-5 of each gender. That doesn't make them inhumane. Heck, I see some talking about their new litter every other month. I'm getting a bit sick of the snotty attitude of some. If you want to judge me for taking in a 2.5 yo boy, so be it. I don't care about your judgements. I knew he wasn't in the best situation, I wanted to give him a good home.
> 
> If you want to support me in making a good home for Mocha, thank you!"*
> 
> Omg. I cant' even finish reading this thread because I'm livid. Excuse me??? How arrogant, how rude, and what nerve you have talking like this!! How dare you speak to some of the members like you do!!
> 
> You make absolutely no sense and give us no reason to believe you have both your dogs' best interest at heart.  :rant: You are one complicated woman, Kris. Sorry to say this, but I dont' trust your motives for one second. UGH! I'm so angry I could spit!!!!!
> 
> I dont' even know if I want to finish reading the thread and i'm only at post #100 !!


You don't wanna keep reading, Marj..its heartbreaking. :tape:

I'm still miffed on the fact that you have 2 sick intact dogs home all day ALONE in a pen.


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## lfung5

I just want to say, I have 3 dogs and I still can't leave them alone all day. Think twice before you get another dog to keep Coco 1 company. It doesn't work! Some people should just get fish and not a dog. There are many things that go into being a responsible dog owner. There are too many to list, but I can tell you, my dogs are first in my life. I arrange my life and schedule around them. For example, when looking for a house, I wouldn't look at the inside of a house, if the yard wasn't perfect for my dogs.

You keep going back and forth questioning if this breeder is a puppymill or not. If the dog pees in his living space, that's a big clue! Being timid and scared is clue #2. Being so unhealthy is you clue #3. I think so many people are upset with you, because with all these clues and the knowledge available to you, you still seem to be clueless.

Health papers are not enough. The results must be posted on the OFFA website.

1 week research in find him? I looked and researched this breed for a year, before getting Bella. It took several months for me to get Fred and then Scudder.

It doesn't appear you financially secure enough to care for Coco 1, so why get coco 2? Stop asking for handouts. That's just pathetic. 

That's enough. I am ranting. I hope Marj and Julie don't kick me off the forum


----------



## Julie

Look--no one is gonna get kicked off the forum but please be kind to each other. You can disagree and give your opinions,but no bitch slapping is allowed. Why does that sound so bad?ound: I'm trying to lighten it up here folks.....

In all fairness----I'm not financially secure enough to own a neezer either--but I sure have one! He is a nice healthy one too because I got lucky..but he wasn't cheap. If something serious came up with him I don't know what the hel I'd do...that's the truth. So---come on.....I understand KrisE's desire to get her money back,I'd be the same way. I am not sure how much she paid for him,but I think in the 500.00 range. 500.00 bucks is 500.00 bucks in my world....enough to buy groceries and keep my heat from being turned off. If it was a 100.00 dog....I'd probably take it in the shorts myself,but 500.00 is alot of money to some of us and I just don't think that is a fair statement.

In an ideal world that Mocha Man could go to HRI and that would be perfect for him and KrisE,but if she can't afford to lose 500.00(or whatever he cost) like I couldn't--what is she supposed to do?


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## KrisE

I'm sorry everyone. I've made another stupid decision.

I called the sheriff last night and am lodging a formal complaint as well. I do believe she's willfully neglecting her dogs. Her breeder has been correctly listed above.

I will take Mocha in to get neutered asap. I had never any interest in breeding him anyway.

I finally got ahold of her last night, very late. She refused to take him back and argued that a 3 of 6 heart murmur isn't a life threatening congenital disease. She also refused to give me her vet's information to verify he was checked out.

I've listed a negative feedback on puppyfind that I can back up with documentation as well. I'm going to file a suit against her so anyone looking for a puppy will find it through google searches.

http://www.puppyfind.com/reviews/?a...6back%3D&sid=204474197132154447589fba86ab9bea

I was up most of the night reading and the only way I can really give other buyers a chance at avoiding her is to list her on puppy mill sites and sue her so there is further documentation of her neglect and bad breeding practices. I made a mistake in trusting her and papers. You'd think I'd know better after what happened with Havanique.

He will definitely need surgery. Now that I know what signs to look for with a luxating patella, it's obvious to me he has this with how he moves. She had to have known! I don't know why my vet rated him a 5 of 6 when that site states 1 to 4 ratings, but she did. I can take a photograph of her findings and post them here for the nay sayers.

I'm going to ask her to write a formal statement to send to the Iowa Secretary of State.


----------



## KrisE

Just so anyone looking for information on a prospective puppy will find this through google searches
www.thepuppyshack.com

You'd be surprised at the number of prospective buyers who contacted me and thanked me for posting the story of Coco while searching the internet for this information. For direct contact, I can be reached at [email protected]

I'll be talking to HRA tomorrow or Friday. I need to get going to work. I've put water and a pee pad in the playpen for Mocha. My son's gf is coming after school to play with him. Rest assured, until I can find someone who can care for him as he should be cared for, he will have a loving home here.


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## lcy_pt

KrisE said:


> I'm sorry everyone. I've made another stupid decision.
> 
> I called the sheriff last night and am lodging a formal complaint as well. I do believe she's willfully neglecting her dogs. Her breeder has been correctly listed above.
> 
> I will take Mocha in to get neutered asap. I had never any interest in breeding him anyway.
> 
> I finally got ahold of her last night, very late. She refused to take him back and argued that a 3 of 6 heart murmur isn't a life threatening congenital disease. She also refused to give me her vet's information to verify he was checked out.
> 
> I've listed a negative feedback on puppyfind that I can back up with documentation as well. I'm going to file a suit against her so anyone looking for a puppy will find it through google searches.
> 
> http://www.puppyfind.com/reviews/?a...6back%3D&sid=204474197132154447589fba86ab9bea
> 
> I was up most of the night reading and the only way I can really give other buyers a chance at avoiding her is to list her on puppy mill sites and sue her so there is further documentation of her neglect and bad breeding practices. I made a mistake in trusting her and papers. You'd think I'd know better after what happened with Havanique.
> 
> He will definitely need surgery. Now that I know what signs to look for with a luxating patella, it's obvious to me he has this with how he moves. She had to have known! I don't know why my vet rated him a 5 of 6 when that site states 1 to 4 ratings, but she did. I can take a photograph of her findings and post them here for the nay sayers.
> 
> I'm going to ask her to write a formal statement to send to the Iowa Secretary of State.


Oh come on now........

View attachment 28239


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## lfung5

Julie,
If it was just a money issue, I think people would be more understanding. It appears to be way more than that. Kris is clearly all over the place with her emotions. First she's defending the breeder, then she's throwing her under the bus, then defending her again and now sewing her and posting everything about the woman. If you read the thread in it's entirety, she is contradicting herself with every other posting. 

The last post is a doozy. I want to slap myself, because I can't believe it.

Kris, you need to take a deep breath and think before acting on emotions. Usually, it's better to calm down before having a knee jerk reaction. Maybe then you won't keep making these stupid mistakes.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Julie said:


> Look--no one is gonna get kicked off the forum but please be kind to each other. You can disagree and give your opinions,but no bitch slapping is allowed. Why does that sound so bad?ound: I'm trying to lighten it up here folks.....
> 
> In all fairness----I'm not financially secure enough to own a neezer either--but I sure have one! He is a nice healthy one too because I got lucky..but he wasn't cheap. If something serious came up with him I don't know what the hel I'd do...that's the truth. So---come on.....I understand KrisE's desire to get her money back,I'd be the same way. I am not sure how much she paid for him,but I think in the 500.00 range. 500.00 bucks is 500.00 bucks in my world....enough to buy groceries and keep my heat from being turned off. If it was a 100.00 dog....I'd probably take it in the shorts myself,but 500.00 is alot of money to some of us and I just don't think that is a fair statement.
> 
> In an ideal world that Mocha Man could go to HRI and that would be perfect for him and KrisE,but if she can't afford to lose 500.00(or whatever he cost) like I couldn't--what is she supposed to do?


Julie, thanks for this. I know from past experiences everyone has a limit, financially and emotionally. Sometimes the two are not the same. Kris is obviously upset and sounding out her ideas to the group of friends on the forum. The friends on the forum are upset with her decisions and/or plans. I think everyone wants what is best for Mr. Mocha. Question is, how can this happen?


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## Sheri

Julie said:


> Look--no one is gonna get kicked off the forum but please be kind to each other. You can disagree and give your opinions,but no bitch slapping is allowed. Why does that sound so bad?ound: I'm trying to lighten it up here folks.....
> 
> In all fairness----I'm not financially secure enough to own a neezer either--but I sure have one! He is a nice healthy one too because I got lucky..but he wasn't cheap. If something serious came up with him I don't know what the hel I'd do...that's the truth. So---come on.....I understand KrisE's desire to get her money back,I'd be the same way. I am not sure how much she paid for him,but I think in the 500.00 range. 500.00 bucks is 500.00 bucks in my world....enough to buy groceries and keep my heat from being turned off. If it was a 100.00 dog....I'd probably take it in the shorts myself,but 500.00 is alot of money to some of us and I just don't think that is a fair statement.
> 
> In an ideal world that Mocha Man could go to HRI and that would be perfect for him and KrisE,but if she can't afford to lose 500.00(or whatever he cost) like I couldn't--what is she supposed to do?


Julie, I appreciate you posting this. I am in the same boat, and $500 is a lot of money. That's why it took over a year for me to save up for Tucker, who is the joy of my life, after researching breeds for over two years.

So, I understand the money. I'd have to do the same.

But... the rest... Kris already had knowledge needed from the first go-round with Coco to make better choices.


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## Julie

(in response to Flynn)I don't know--that's the thing. Fixing this mistake is a doozey.....and well to be perfectly frank....I don't wish any bad will to anyone,but there is an old saying "Once biten,twice shy" that I can't get out of my head. KrisE should of known better after her first adventure with Coco girl. That being said,everyone makes mistakes.

On the other hand,and I've told KrisE this privately--but if all she wanted was a companion for Coco girl and wanted a hav--given that Coco Girl isn't spayed why would you pick an in-tact male? I have all boys at my house and they are just pets....but I myself would not pick a male in tact that had been bred before. In my mind--and I may be over-stating this because chances are this isn't the case all the time----but---a male in tact that has been used for breeding,is gonna be a pissing/humping/marking mess. Not ideal for an average home and a working home besides. That's what I'm saying. In no way am I saying they are all like this,or terrible pets or anything like that----just saying---IF what she was after was in fact a companion for Coco girl,why not pick a neutered male? A female? Why an in tact male? Particularly given that Coco girl isn't spayed. To me---that is a bad decision. That is just my opinion for what it's worth.

It becomes suspicious to forum members because we were here when she got Coco as a young pup and had purchased her with full registration as she wanted to show and ?breed? Coco girl. This pup had/has genetic issues that would be passed onto future puppies had she been bred. I would hate to see her do that,as I imagine all forum members would,because in a sense....she would be doing what had been done to her.

I'm not sure what the answer is with Mr.Mocha. It's a sad situation and although he would benefit most by being placed with HRI,KrisE would be out her money she paid for him to,unless she works something out with Mocha's breeder. To be perfectly blunt about that--that is just none of our business unless she makes it ours by posting. I would not want people donating money or any of that unless MM can check out and approve that situation.

In my own life--I "get" why taking on a in tact male with health issues is a big deal. It's a big financial deal...and although everyone's heart is in the right place,sometimes people have to make decisions,the tough ones when it comes to matters like this. I see it all the time where I work.....Also--given what KrisE's situation was with Coco girl--she has made this choice to bring in this male,and although I personally do not think it was a good one,it is her choice and that's that. Sometimes you have to be the responsible person who has made a bad decision and suffer the concesquences. Taking responsibilty for Mocha is KrisE's ....not ours...whatever her decisions will be..keep him,return him,whatever...that is hers and hers alone.

It is situations like this--that gets the forum stirred up because passion runs high.....This is the reason that we so harp on here about getting a pup from a reputable breeder--doing YOUR homework. Know what is supposed to be,what isn't. We all want everyone to get a healthy,happy pup.....but....we can't choke one down your throat. It is the individual's responsiblilty to read and learn and know. We can help with answering questions or help by helping you check test results,things like that....but we can not help you if you buy first and ask questions later.


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## Julie

KrisE--I want you to know that I deleted the personal info you had posted about this breeder. I don't think that is a good idea given the fact you will need to contact this breeder.


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## mellowbo

What a mess! Kris, you state that you are going to neuter Mocha. I'm glad to hear that and I hope you do so ASAP. Coco too. Then you state you are going to contact HRA, did you mean HRI?

Preferring to think positive, I am hoping you and perhaps others on the forum, have learned from this mess. If you someday want to breed dogs you need to start from go and move slowly forward. You need to establish a relationship with a reputable breeder and let them throughly mentor you through the entire process. That could take years. 

If your motivation is money then you can really put that aside. Good breeding cost a lot more that you take in. It is done for the love of the breed, to improve the breed.

Otherwise, you are just starting your own puppy mill and you can see what that gets you! 

But, having said all that, please think of the dogs first and foremost. These are not little mindless creatures. They are companions! They have feelings and emotions! They have BIG hearts that beat just like ours! They are helpless, depending on your decisions.

OK, now I'm making myself tear up, but I know you know what I saying.

Best of luck in making better decisions in the future.


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## Kathy

Julie said:


> what is she supposed to do?


Julie,
There are always options, and sometimes the best option isn't the easiest. When it comes to a living, breathing creature, it shouldn't be about the money. People loose money all the time because of bad decisions they make. So many on this forum tried very hard to give good, sound advise and were very empathetic when asked for help, only to learn now, that history seems to repeat itself.


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## Havtahava

Julie said:


> KrisE--I want you to know that I deleted the personal info you had posted about this breeder. I don't think that is a good idea given the fact you will need to contact this breeder.


It isn't a good idea _ever_, to post someone's personal information on a public forum. Most web sites have it listed in their TOS or TOU forbidding such doings.


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## marjrc

I understand your comments about finances, Julie. Of COURSE money is a factor in the choices we make in getting a puppy, meeting it's needs, etc... Not everyone can afford to get the $2000 Hav and then pay for all it needs. I have absolutely no problem in being supportive of these concerns.

Like Linda, though, I don't feel that is the total issue here with Kris and her rantings. Sure, it's one concern of hers, and frankly once things go wrong with the puppies she chooses, it seems like it's ONLY the money that motivates her to make further mistakes and decisions. There is an obvious pattern here and it's not something we are guessing at. Kris herself has written for all to see, what choices she makes, what motivates her, what kind of person she is. I'm no psych. major, but I do know a few things and can see that what makes some people tick is to poke at hornets' nests and air it for all to see. The fact that there are live dogs involved just makes these mind games intolerable to me. 

Pat and Linda, I'm with you on these last posts of Kris's. I simply don't trust anything you say anymore, Kris. I'm sorry, and I suppose it's not something I should say publicly, because who cares what I think?! As with another poster on this forum not so long ago, there were valid points made that just because we think something, it doesn't mean we need to be rude about it and say it out loud. I dunno... when someone plays dirty, and it bothers me so much that I can barely breathe, I don't see anything wrong in venting to that person. Maybe it's childish, but frankly I'm fed up with this situation and someone needs a good smack!

Kris, letting us know you are taking legal action does not make me feel good for one second. Bragging about it is simply childish! Keep that stuff to yourself please, because as far as I'm concerned, the only right thing you can do by those dogs now, is to give them a loving family, provide all the medical care they need and support them for the rest of their lives (which can be another 15+ years you know!) and stop complaining about it! If you can't do this, fine. Call HRI and let them take the pups so they can have a better life. Please, just please don't ever return them to this BYB breeder!!!

I know, Julie, this is may be none of our business. Airing so many intimate details of what you think and how you act, in a public venue such as this one, is asking for opinions. If she doesn't want to know what we think, then she needs to stop posting complaints or asking for advice, as is the title of this thread she started.


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## Julie

Kathy said:


> Julie,
> There are always options, and sometimes the best option isn't the easiest. When it comes to a living, breathing creature, it shouldn't be about the money. People loose money all the time because of bad decisions they make. So many on this forum tried very hard to give good, sound advise and were very empathetic when asked for help, only to learn now, that history seems to repeat itself.


I understand what you are saying.

I don't even know that is about the money with KrisE...I was just putting myself in her shoes and in my world..it would be about the money.The bottom line,for me---it would be. I could love it to death and train it to death too,but pay for all the surgeries and required stuff...uhm...no.

I see at the vets. We have dogs that need on going medical care (like insulin shots,etc.) that the owners can not afford and end up having to put the pet down. I took care of a little white furball a couple weekends ago that I had to give insulin to and I was told that the owners didn't know how much longer they could afford that. I asked why? She's so sweet---and was told because that stuff (I was holding insulin and a shot) is very expensive and she'll need several shots a day. My heart broke as after I gave her her insulin she was running and playing freely with me at the clinic....as I watched her...it broke my heart and yet----I can understand the costs involved with it. Sometimes owners just have no choice.


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## pjewel

Julie, another reason I need to stop procrastinating and get the pet insurance for my troops. I couldn't afford a catastrophic vet bill these days either, yet I'd sooner not eat myself than deny them what they need to thrive. It's difficult.


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## Julie

marjrc said:


> I know, Julie, this is may be none of our business. Airing so many intimate details of what you think and how you act, in a public venue such as this one, is asking for opinions. If she doesn't want to know what we think, then she needs to stop posting complaints or asking for advice, as is the title of this thread she started.


Agreed. No doubt--when you post on a public forum you are gonna get all kinds of advice,not just what you want to hear. No doubt. Making it public on here does make it our business so to speak....but we have no control over what she decides to do next. We can help guide her,but that's it. Ultimately,it is her decision. That's what I'm saying.

If she works out something with her breeder that is truly none of our business--UNLESS she makes it public.


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## casperkeep

I have just read this whole thread and my heart goes out to this poor little guy. I kept thinking of the fosters that I have had and about my little Betzie. I just hope that she has learned her lesson and will do the right things with Mocha. He is a handsome little boy.
Linda our dogs are first in our lifes. The only time they have been left for a long period of time and i mean like 6-8 hours is when there have been some medical issues with our families....but even then we try and have our neighbor let them out or we come back home and let them out to potty and go back. Oh my heart just breaks.


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## PepperToast

I am going to hold my tongue on many issues here but I feel I need to clear up one issue that I started. 

In a previous post, I was brainstorming ideas about ways the breeder wouldn't get the dog and the money. I suggested that Kris surrender the dog to HRI with the left over money. I hadn't thought that through all the way. $500 IS a LOT of money for some of us and I do recognize that. I really hadn't computed that Kris would be out of her money and in hind sight I don't feel comfortable with my suggestion. It was just a brainstorming idea and wasn't a fully formed thought. 

About Mocha, isn't there a havanese rescue organization in the US that does pay money to rescue dogs? I know this is controversial and I am not sure how I really feel about it. I know so little about the US rescue system. Just rambling now.......


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## ama0722

I think another thing this thread serves to remind people, pets are expensive. I just had my very healthy dog at the vet and the cost was over $250 and that was just me running blood work to make sure he is healthy. With pet ownership comes a lot of responsibility and financial is part of that. I have been pretty lucky with my pets and I think the most expensive time at the vet was around $500 for a freak emergency (well Dora and Belle both had one so $500x2). I don't have pet insurance but I have money put aside. But hopefully anyone reading this will see another reminder of before you add any dog, they can cost a lot of money even if you do the research before, work with a great breeder, and get a physically healthy puppy.

Here is the contact for the other rescue. I am not sure if they will pay an individual for a dog they purchased on the internet-I am thinking doubtful. I am not affiliated with it in any way but here is the contact:

http://www.rescuedhavanese.org/surrendering.htm


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## ama0722

The other thing that should be mentioned on this thread... unfortunately the US hardly has any laws on commercial sales of animals (this includes pet stores and internet sales) and often the ones that there are, aren't enforced. So you can scream lawsuit but good luck, a lot of those breeders are licensed and what they do is totally legally. Unfortunately the best we can do is education right now. Iowa is the number 3 commercial producer of dogs and has a lot of USDA licensed breeders. If anyone would like to read what happens, what is required, what is considered humane, here is a good website but warning there can be very graphic areas.

http://www.prisonersofgreed.org/


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## casperkeep

I have always said that if we can not afford all the things for the pups then we can not add another to our family. I love my four babies but they are exoensive. We do heartworm and flea medicine all yr round. The regular vet visits and then all the "unexpected" things as well. We do not have any children so we are able to have four pups. When I was looking into a havanese my husband wanted me to look into all the different breeds as well. Then once I new that is the breed we wanted then I looked into different breeders. I talked to my breeder that I got my havanese from then a year later we brought Jillee home. It does take awhile to make sure you are with a reputable breeder. I am glad that I did my homework. I have two happy healthy havanese.


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## Evye's Mom

ama0722 said:


> I think another thing this thread serves to remind people, pets are expensive.


This may not be the most appropriate thread but I guess as appropriate as any. If anybody hasn't heard of Care Credit, it a 0% or low % interest, depending on amount and duration. It is used for medical expenses only; including veterinary care. Years ago I got this in case of a catastrophic illness. Unfortunately I had to use and I was very grateful I had it when we had a pet that required a 5-day hospitalization, in a specialty vet clinic that included CT scans and EMG's, among many other tests. Following discharge, return visits, medications, tests, and treatment. The bill was astronomical and I had to use it. FYI...just passing the info on:

www.carecredit.com (healthcare financing plan)


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## whitBmom

I am very sad and appaulled that this situation even happened, but unfortunately we all make mistakes. I pray that Mocha's life takes a turn for the better.

I also hope new puppy buyers can read this thread and use it as a way to learn what not to do and when we say please research and talk to breeders at shows, that it is taken literally. Going for the "cheapest" puppy is not the way to go, buying online or over the phone is also not the best way to go either, as many have experienced such sad outcomes and many puppies are brought into this world in dire conditions. Rushing into things and making rash decisions with BYB puppies, is what can lead to heartbreak, while facilitating the BYB's ability to continue the cycle.


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## michi715

Wow...I'm just catching up on this thread...sort of wish I hadn't. 

I won't spend a lot of time repeating what you've all already said, but for some reason I am still constantly amazed at how people jump into getting a pet. Why is it so hard to understand that bringing home a pet (no matter what species, but especially dogs) is like bringing home a child, except the dog is dependent on the humans for their ENTIRE lives while (in the best of circumstances) children are not.

It breaks my heart to read threads like these, but for some reason I can't stop myself. I also am VERY thankful for this forum because you all were extremely helpful to Alan and I in finding and deciding on a reputable breeder BEFORE we made any decisions.

Despite many of you warning us that Havs like their people and shouldn't be left at home all day, Guapo does quite well, but we would NEVER go without the dog walker. She's like his best friend and it makes me sick to think about her finishing grad school and us having to start all over again with a new dog walker. 

Lastly, I CONSTANTLY think about getting another dog to be Guapo's companion and as often as I tug at Alan's heart strings to start the process of getting another dog, I won't do it until the time is right, until we have the time to spend to bring another dog into our home properly, giving that other dog as much love and attention as we were able to give Guapo while he adjusted to being in our home.

And as I sign off, I will say that, sadly, some people never learn, but I TRULY hope that no more harm comes to Mocha and he finds a loving home someday soon.


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## Scooter's Family

Here in this house, I will never know the loneliness I hear in the barks of the other dogs 'out there'.
I can sleep soundly, assured that when I wake my world will not have changed.
I will never know hunger, or the fear of not knowing if I'll eat.
I will not shiver in the cold, or grow weary from the heat.
I will feel the sun's heat, and the rain's coolness, and be allowed to smell all that can reach my nose.
My fur will shine and never be dirty or matted.

Here in this house, there will be an effort to communicate with me on my level.
I will be talked to and even if I don't understand, I can enjoy the warmth of the words.
I will be given a name so that I may know who I am among many.
My name will be used in joy, and I will love the sound of it.

Here in this house, I will never be a substitute for anything I am not.
I will never be used to improve peoples' images of themselves.
I will be loved because I am who I am, not someone's idea of who I should be.
I will never suffer for someone's anger, impatience, or stupidity.
I will be taught all the things I need to know to be loved by all.
If I do not learn my lessons well, they will look to my teacher for blame.

Here in this house, I can trust arms that hold, hands that touch,
Knowing that, no matter what they do, they do it for the good of me.
If I am ill, I will be doctored.
If scared, I will be calmed.
If sad, I will be cheered.
No matter what I look like, I will be considered beautiful and known to be of value.
I will never be cast out because I am too old, too ill, too unruly, or not cute enough.
My life is a responsibility, and not an afterthought.
I will learn that humans can almost, sometimes, be as kind and as fair as dogs.

Here in this house, I will belong
I will be home.


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## davetgabby

What a wonderful way to end this sad story Anne.


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## Laurief

I too just read this whole thread Michelle and have to say that I am just 

SAD!! Sad for that sweet little boy who has done nothing wrong but is being treated like a broken TV set that the store wont take back. He deserves all the medical care and love in the world and I pray that you, Kris, can work to find what is best for him - and then do whatever you need to do for yourself once he is safe and happy and loved.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

I just pray there will be a good ending to this story for Mr. Mocha and for KrisE
Ann, that is beautiful, it makes me cry too.


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## tabby2

Ann, that's so lovely. Been a tough day and that warmed my heart; thanks!!


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## casperkeep

I think that should be posted at all Humane and Rescue area's...it is just touching!


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## mckennasedona

Ann, that's beautiful and so true. 
DH and I look at our trusting little dogs in the evenings and see them snoozing on their backs and know that they feel no fear in such a vulnerable position. They understand that they are safe and loved and have never known anything else in their entire lives. 

Any pet we take into our lives is a responsibility. In our home we have birds for whom we are the fourth home. Though I won't have more birds, I value the lives of the ones we have seriously, every bit as seriously as I do the lives of my dogs. We lost one 24 year old cockatiel to cancer in December. We just had our 20 year old conure diagnosed with cancer as well (no it's nothing toxic in my house, just age). Both have cost us quite a bit of money but it isn't about the money. It's about the responsibility of giving them the best quality of life we can for as long as we can. We know Sunny will die of his cancer. Every week we get with him now we are grateful for. People say we are crazy for spending money like that on birds but they are ours and a small bird is not less important than a dog or a cat. If it came down to it, we would start selling possesions to pay for medical care for our animals. Beyond that, if we couldn't afford it we would rehome them with others who could love and care for them fully.
Pets are responsiblity we take seriously. My prayers are with little Mocha. I hope he is loved.


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## whitBmom

Ann that was very touching and moving, so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that, it made me tear up. (((Hugs)))


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## murphymoesmamma

Oh Ann, Thank you so much for that touching post. I was having an awful day at work and that just warmed my heart! I know that Murphy feels loved and sleeps the sleep of angels!


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## KrisE

*HRI wants to adopt Mocha*

I got a call tonight from HRI after filling out their form a few days ago and they've decided to adopt Mocha.

He's doing very well here. But, my son and husband are having a hard time with me asking to give him up to a more suitable home. I'm going to sit them down and explain the process to rehabilitate Mocha.

I think he'd be better off in a home with someone who can dedicate the time to see to him properly during his recovery after surgery and thereafter.

Coco is high energy, so I don't know if Mocha would be a good play buddy for her.

We can manage the expense for surgery, even with 2 boys in college.

HRI assures me they can place him in a home where someone is home all the time and able to help him through post-op and keep him from hurting himself again. From what I've read on the internet, he'll need to be less active in order for this to not reoccur.

Anyone here have a dog that has had surgery?

Thanks
Kris


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## pjewel

That is wonderful news Kris. If he goes to HRI his future will be bright as he gets prepared to go to his new home and family. I imagine there might be a good chance that someone here could even wind up fostering him till he's ready for his new life. That way you could get updates on his progress as well.


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## Scooter's Family

Happy to hear you've come to a decision Kris, I hope it gives you peace of mind.


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## maryam187

Good job Kris, I'm happy to read this. Peace of mind for all of us. I think Jill's Cody had hip (?) surgery, her name here is JillInMich or something similar. You could pm her.


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## ama0722

I am really glad you are giving Mocha to HRI. It is a win win


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## LilyMyLove

Ann,
What a beautiful poem, it was particularly poignant in this post. Thank you.:angel:

KrisE
I am really happy to hear about your decision. Hopefully Mocha will have the best chance possible at having a happy life.
:cheer2:


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## KrisE

I didn't say we were doing this yet. I have to research his future and decide if it's a bad idea to keep him or find another home. Then, I have to inform my husband and son, make a family decision.

From what I understand, they really do have to be inactive their entire life because injury is likely if they aren't careful.


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## maryam187

Oh, I'm sorry, it's not his hip, it's his patella, right? If that's 'just' it, my understanding is that the surgery would intend to fix it (tighten the tendon) to a point where the dog can live a pretty normal life. I could be wrong.


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## mellowbo

How did I get so lost??? lol I didn't know he injured himself? He wasn't born that way? If he has surgery, are you saying it would still be easy to re-injure? Sorry for my confusion Kris.


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## KrisE

It might be best to see the ortho at the UofM as I did with coco so I can make an informed decision.


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## Jill in Mich

My Cody has surgery for a luxating patella (grade 4) this past June and Joellyn thought she was facing the surgery for her pup (it ended up being a torn ACL instead of the patella). Here's the thread that Joellyn started: http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=11074. The 10 week recovery was rough - Cody wasn't allowed to walk at all for about 4 weeks and then VERY limited for another 6. Then it was getting the leg muscles back into condition. So far the surgery has been successful - he doesn't limp at all (the surgeon said a limp is very common). He will definitely have arthritis as the surgery results in bone on bone. I was very lucky in that Cody's surgery was the simplest ("just" deepening the groove the kneecap sits in and tightening the ligaments/tendons holding the kneecap). He has no limitations now - the surgeon ok'd him for agility. From what I've read, there is an increased risk in a dog who's needed surgery on one knee to need the other done within a year or two (I'm keeping my fingers crossed).


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## KrisE

I don't understand this at all. Mocha doesn't seem to be in pain. But, he doesn't run and jump around like coco does. Is it that he never injured his knee, but was born with this and has learned not to push himself?


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## maryam187

Could very well be. It can either be inherited or acquired. Usually the acquired one is unilateral whereas the inherited version will (eventually) be bilateral in most cases.


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## mellowbo

What was it that Coco had?? She didn't have surgery, did she? Did it all just go away??


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## Jill in Mich

KrisE said:


> I don't understand this at all. Mocha doesn't seem to be in pain. But, he doesn't run and jump around like coco does. Is it that he never injured his knee, but was born with this and has learned not to push himself?


I'm not sure... I think it's hard to tell about his activity level - I'm not sure you've had him long enough to see his full personality yet and he is younger than Coco, isn't he?

In Cody's case he was/is fairly active - that's what got him in trouble. He wasn't in chronic pain. Occasionally the kneecap would pop out of the groove - which did cause him great pain. Each time this happened the tendons/ligaments would get stretched. Finally he injured the knee (jumped and twisted at the same time) so that the kneecap wouldn't stay in place for more than a few steps. He wasn't always in pain but the leg would just drag on the ground. The surgeon said he considered Cody's other knee worse but so far (keeping my fingers crosssed) he hasn't had any problems with it.

Tess' knees are even worse than Cody's but they only symptom I've seen with her is a "skip" in her gait when she runs. It doesn't seem to cause her any pain at all.

I know at least one other person on the forum went through the surgery recently with their dog and the dog was back to regular activity within just a few weeks. I was too paranoid that Cody would re-injure the knee (the surgeon was emphatic about how allowing him to walk too soon would very likely result in another surgery) and I'd have to pay for a 2nd surgery - and I never would have survived another 2.5 months of recovery.


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## Laurief

Kris, I am happy to hear that you are considering HRI - I am sure that if that is the route you take, that he will be well cared for!

My friends pup just had the surgery and he is on week 7 of being kept on a leash at all times, cannot jump, run, or be too active. Sadly most need to have the cone on for weeks. She gave him a break one afternoon and the second she left the room, he literally pulled out all his stitches! He will be limited for quite a while :crutch::crutch::crutch: but they are hopeful that he will live a fairly normal life. Thankfully he is normally a calm guy.


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## Scooter's Family

Scooter hurt himself yesterday. He was hiding under the dining room table and panting so I took him to the vet after several hours of strange behavior. She went over him well and thinks he pulled a muscle in his right leg/hip. The office visit, pain medicine, and an injection of pain medicine was $140! She told me to keep him quiet as much as possible...that's almost impossible!!! 

I can see how the cost of care can add up very quickly even with a minor injury.


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## KrisE

Laurie, can you go through how post-op was? I'm hearing some say a week and they're fine, others saying much longer. 

I don't know how I'd even be able to care for him post-op without taking at least 10 days off right now. 

He doesn't limp but his movement seems so odd to me compared to Coco.

To answer the other questions, Coco and I went to a show in Eau Claire one weekend when she was a puppy and a breeder I met through here looked at her for confirmation. I wanted to show Coco. AT that time, she said Coco had bent legs in the front. I took Coco to two othro's, both suggested surgery. But, my vet suggested I wait and see. Coco doesn't seem in any pain and until she stops running around like a normal Hav, I don't want to put her through the pain of breaking her front legs to make them straight. My vet looked at her this week again and said she has no luxating knees in the back and she doesn't see Coco's fronts being an issue. She said her front doesn't look different than other breeds who are considered standard. Because I found out her Mother has the same condition, I consider this a genetic disorder. her blood work didn't indicate any other medical conditions to believe this is Chondrodysplasia. Sorry I'm not spell checking some of these terms.

With the boy, Mocha, my vet believes this is genetic. Basically the knees just aren't put together right and are prone to injury. My vet said she could easily move the one knee. And, I see Mocha moving oddly. I don't know if he just was born this way and has found a way to keep himself from hurting himself or not. But, I've never seen him RLH like Coco does. He gets up the stairs fine. He's never yelped or held his leg up. But, my vet from looking at his hind leg says he's a 4 of 5. I know the grade system online only has 4 stages so I'm guessing it would be best to have him evaluated by an Ortho. 

Our family dynamics are not the best for a dog that might need extended supervision. This is why I didn't adopt or look for a dog with special needs. If I was retired, this wouldn't be an issue. I could wait til my son who's a senior graduates to get this done, but frankly... I don't think he's going to be that much help. I'm going to sit down with him and my husband and spell out what it takes to help him recover and ask them what they think. I can't do this on my own, I'm the one who's gone the most at this time. 

I'm convinced Mocha belongs with a family with at least one person readily available to assure Mocha heals correctly. I think I have my husband on board. So, more than likely when I ask my son to help, he'll come around as well. 

He will have to dedicate alot of time this summer to training for football season. And frankly, he's not very mature. Sure, he'll say he will help me with Mocha days, but I don't think in reality he will be there holding Mocha to keep him from walking around.

Alot of what I was going through since this last Saturday was about being angry with another breeder passing on her dog she knew would need alot of attention without caring enough whether he was placed in the right home. I was angry for being thrust into this. First, I had to figure out how to work with him about marking. Then, 2 days after that, I found out about his medical conditions. It's alot to digest. Of course I've also bonded with this boy immediately. On Tuesday when I brought him for what I thought was an ear infection to find out I'm looking at a long road with him, without any support, I was furious. I wanted to find a way to shut the breeder down so she wouldn't put anyone else in this situation. 

I'd already decided to do whatever it takes for Coco to live a good life. I really can't take on another special needs dog at this time. 

BTW, I didn't read all the rants from some people here who think they know my motives. I have never seen a breed with so many serious genetic issues. In a perfect world, a person would have to have all their hav's certified geneticall healthy to breed and there would be a serious fine and forfeiture for anyone who bred unhealthy dogs. I love Mocha. I love the havenese breed or I'd have gotten another to replace our loss.

We lost our 15 year old cockapoo this winter and coco is lonely. I hope I'll find a healthy dog to join our family. I don't know how I'm going to do it, but I'll never give money to another breeder til I can have the dog checked out completely by MY vet. 

The last conversation with Mocha's breeder was me telling her that I was done hearing her excuses. If she'd taken Mocha into a vet, she'd have known what I know. I told her there was a special hell for breeders like her who breed dogs who will produce such bundles of joy with so many painful genetic issues.

My vet told me that if the breeder was correct in stating Mocha didn't have a heart murmur at birth, then the only other reason he'd have this now was through bad dental hygene. His teeth were nasty with plaque, but my vet saw his teeth and doesn't think they're bad enough to cause a heart murmur. And, I can't trust her word that he's been vaccinated, there's no proof of it and she won't give me Mocha's vet's name.


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## KrisE

*That's funny*

My bill was 140 when I brought coco and mocha in. I'm sorry scooter injured himself. Hopefully, this will tell him to take care when he's at play.

They're smart dogs.



Scooter's Family said:


> Scooter hurt himself yesterday. He was hiding under the dining room table and panting so I took him to the vet after several hours of strange behavior. She went over him well and thinks he pulled a muscle in his right leg/hip. The office visit, pain medicine, and an injection of pain medicine was $140! She told me to keep him quiet as much as possible...that's almost impossible!!!
> 
> I can see how the cost of care can add up very quickly even with a minor injury.


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## Jill in Mich

Kris, if Mocha has the knee surgery I think his recovery will depend on (a) the extent of the surgery - if this is genetic, it may require more extensive surgery such as moving the ligament "anchors" which is cutting & moving bone, (b) the surgeon's recommendations for recovery, (c) the individual dogs reaction to the surgery and rate of recovery, and (d) the caretaker and how strictly they stick to the recommendations.

Cody came to work with me for a few days so I could watch him carefully, then he was crated full time for about a week (carried out to do his business), then restricted to one room (about 10x10) of the house where he couldn't run/jump/etc. When he could start walking he was tied to me whenever he wasn't in a crate but still carried in/out. Resuming normal activity was a very gradual process but he wasn't allowed to run/jump/play until he could walk at least 1 mile (per surgeon's instructions). I've also heard of recovery including physical and hydro therapy. 

I tend to be a "rule follower" so I'm sure I made the whole process harder on myself (and Cody) than it needed to be. He probably would have been fine if I'd been a little more lax, I just too afraid of possible consequences to risk it. My dog stroller was a lifesaver during the process. It gave us both a change of scenery and allowed Tess to still get her walks. (Although, walking Tess while pushing the stroller or taking Cody in and out was a challenge itself.)


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Scooter's Family said:


> Scooter hurt himself yesterday. He was hiding under the dining room table and panting so I took him to the vet after several hours of strange behavior. She went over him well and thinks he pulled a muscle in his right leg/hip. The office visit, pain medicine, and an injection of pain medicine was $140! She told me to keep him quiet as much as possible...that's almost impossible!!!
> 
> I can see how the cost of care can add up very quickly even with a minor injury.


I am so happy he is okay Ann, give Scooter a big hug!
Does anyone know the name of the author of the "In This House" post Ann did recently?
It is so beautiful. I will try and google it also. Thanks


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## Julie

KrisE said:


> BTW, I didn't read all the rants from some people here who think they know my motives. I have never seen a breed with so many serious genetic issues. In a perfect world, a person would have to have all their hav's certified geneticall healthy to breed and there would be a serious fine and forfeiture for anyone who bred unhealthy dogs. I love Mocha. I love the havenese breed or I'd have gotten another to replace our loss.
> .


KrisE--Just a word of caution here---You have already came very close to getting banned from the forum on your previous posts in this thread with some very rude language. Please if you do decide to reply then keep it calm. To not reply is best.

I don't think this breed is unhealthy at all...I just think your "picker" is off.ound: There are many many many healthy happy havanese out there....you just seem to pick from the wrong places.:wink:


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## Laurief

Kris, Macho had luxating patellas but never had a problem before. He is 7 years old and must have falled, or jumped wrong and torn something. His surgery was pretty extensive, done by a specialist. He was to remain totally leashed to the side, and off his feet for several weeks! My friend is a rule follower too, so she has done everything that the vet said to do, and he is going crazy!!! The only thing she DID do that was wrong was take the cone off for a bit, and he pulled out his stitches. It is really hard to keep a Hav down, and Macho needed 100% supervision for the last few weeks. 

Quite honestly I dont think that the Havanese have any more genetic issues than any other breed - it just seemed that you were unlucky to be struck 2x.


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## mellowbo

Well Kris, I would say that you have had enough bad experiences to have learned a lot for your future decisions. Can you now see why so many forum members were panicked at the thought of you breeding Coco and Mocha? Even an oops breeding would be tragic. 
The puppies would most likely be genetically poor at best. Then, when you sold these poor puppies you would be the one accused of terrible breeding and would probably be sued by your puppy buyers!
Somehow bad breeding has to stop. It sure would help if we could convince new peeps on this forum to not buy from anyone who doesn't have complete health testing and results posted on the internet. Our sounding "holier than tho" attitude is only wanting the best for our breed.
Good luck!


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## karin117

I would just like to add a bit about un healthy breed. In sweden, we love havanese and they are not rare here anymore. Most people have insurens on their dogs...and last year the largest insurens company named havanese as the most healthy breed .... and there is almost 400 recogniced of FCI, and most of those breeds are represented in Sweden.

Yes, there are health issues. And if you look at ex chocolade colour, that is resensve inhereted and there have been a limted genepool. AND a big demand. That two component togeter have made people breed unhealthy. 

A chocolade colour havanese breed to a chocolade will produce 100% chocolade litter...BUT that is NOT the way to breed. Chocolade take time and should be breed chocolade to NON chocolad, carrier of chocolade pigmentation...BOTH healty. Or to a non chocolade carrier to GET carrier fo the next generation... That take much longer time, since you will not get all chocolade in the litter. BUT time and money should NEVER be a intrest...

IF we want chocolade colour havanese, the gene pool need to be extended, by breeding to non chocolade, healthy line (black or parti is prefered) and let it take TIME.

Your should always do your homework, but a bit extra if you look for a dog with a colour that is inhereted in a resensiv way.


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## KrisE

I had nor have any intention of breeding coco. My first thought when looking for a new dog was to find a female of good health about coco's age.

I'm 50 now. I've never had a smaller dog and never had any problems with health. I've also read that small breeds do come with some challenges because they're so tiny.

But, that said, My brother had an Irish Terrier who had bad hips. They attributed this recently to too good of food, he basically grew too fast.

My parents have had so many pets through my lifetime, never an instance of genetic problems. They have their second Scottie now from basically who ever was selling a Scottie at the time they were looking. They never asked for health tests. I guess they're just lucky and I am not.

QUOTE=karin117;316093]I would just like to add a bit about un healthy breed. In sweden, we love havanese and they are not rare here anymore. Most people have insurens on their dogs...and last year the largest insurens company named havanese as the most healthy breed .... and there is almost 400 recogniced of FCI, and most of those breeds are represented in Sweden.

Yes, there are health issues. And if you look at ex chocolade colour, that is resentive inhereted and there have been a limted genepool. AND a big demand. That two component togeter have made people breed unhealthy.

A chocolade colour havanese breed to a chocolade will produce 100% chocolade litter...BUT that is NOT the way to breed. Chocolade take time and should be breed chocolade to NON chocolad carrier...BOTH healty. That take much longer time, since you will not get all chocolade in the litter. BUT time and money should NEVER be a intrest...

IF we want chocolade colour havanese, the gene pool need to be extended, by breeding to non chocolade, healthy line (black or parti is prefered) and let it take TIME.

Your should always do your homework, but a bit extra if you look for a dog with a colour that is inherted in a resensiv way.[/QUOTE]


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## Julie

karin117 said:


> I would just like to add a bit about un healthy breed. In sweden, we love havanese and they are not rare here anymore. Most people have insurens on their dogs...and last year the largest insurens company named havanese as the most healthy breed .... and there is almost 400 recogniced of FCI, and most of those breeds are represented in Sweden.
> 
> Yes, there are health issues. And if you look at ex chocolade colour, that is resentive inhereted and there have been a limted genepool. AND a big demand. That two component togeter have made people breed unhealthy.
> 
> A chocolade colour havanese breed to a chocolade will produce 100% chocolade litter...BUT that is NOT the way to breed. Chocolade take time and should be breed chocolade to NON chocolad carrier...BOTH healty. That take much longer time, since you will not get all chocolade in the litter. BUT time and money should NEVER be a intrest...
> 
> IF we want chocolade colour havanese, the gene pool need to be extended, by breeding to non chocolade, healthy line (black or parti is prefered) and let it take TIME.
> 
> Your should always do your homework, but a bit extra if you look for a dog with a colour that is inherted in a resensiv way.


Thank you posting that info Karin.( I had asked Karin about breeding 2 chocolates privately and I thought she had great insight and knowledge that I'm glad she posted here.)

I think it sounds like in the pursuit of chocolates you have to be even more careful who you are buying from. It is interesting how "people" seem to mess up mother nature on their rush to make a buck.:hurt:


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## krandall

Julie said:


> Thank you posting that info Karin.( I had asked Karin about breeding 2 chocolates privately and I thought she had great insight and knowledge that I'm glad she posted here.)
> 
> I think it sounds like in the pursuit of chocolates you have to be even more careful who you are buying from. It is interesting how "people" seem to mess up mother nature on their rush to make a buck.:hurt:


It seems like the puppy mills are churning them out like candy because people are so attracted to them. (and as you get all chocolate if you breed two together, it's a sure cash crop) Karin's post explains why the better breeders seem to have one here and there, rather than producing LOTS of them.


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## tabby2

Karin, thanks for your post. Very insightful. 

Kris, another thought as you're deciding what the best decision is for your Havs, your family and you: I think your head/heart already have made the decision to not keep your little guy. I say this b/c it comes through in your posts that you're distancing yourself emotionally from him, from bonding with him. (Understandable given your prior experience and your concerns here, of course.) However, that does leave him in limbo and he deserves the chance to be #1 with his forever family just as you were able to do with Coco. That said, it's a hard situation and I wish you all well.


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## Beamer

Krise,

I also do not think the havanese are a very unhealthy breed. If you buy from the right breeder all should be GOOD, hopefully! But when u start buying out of the newspapers and random online sites, you can be sure that many of these dogs are from puppy mills. Who knows whats being bred at the mills? Many of these dogs advertised as 'Havanese' do not look havanese and are probably mixed with other small breeds, since most of these mills usually have more than 1 breed of dog around.

Ryan


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## Kathie

Kris, I wish you well on whatever you decide to do. I know nothing about this particular health issue - I just wanted to speak of something I do know - teenage sons.......lol Having had a slightly irresponsible one myself, I would not expect much help in that department no matter how much he swears he will help! JMHO


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## KrisE

Amen to that Kathie LOL



Kathie said:


> Kris, I wish you well on whatever you decide to do. I know nothing about this particular health issue - I just wanted to speak of something I do know - teenage sons.......lol Having had a slightly irresponsible one myself, I would not expect much help in that department no matter how much he swears he will help! JMHO


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## Scooter's Family

Same here. When my 18 y/o son was watching, and I use that term very loosely, the dogs last night, Gracie peed on my brand new ottoman.  I went to my room for HIS safety, I wanted to throttle him! (My son, Gracie is still a puppy.)


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## RikiDaisyDixie

*High vet bills even for a "healthy" dog...*

Ah the challenge of loving a dog and taking a dog to the vets. Right now in the Los Angeles area, it is $65 to walk in the door without any tests or meds. I hear in New York City, it is even higher.

When Riki was a puppy he chewed up some pillow stuffing...that I didn't know he had done. Since he wasn't a chewer, I never had to worry. He had black stools and was vomiting. $600 later and an x-ray that showed nothing, we noticed something weird in his stools...the pillow stuffing.

Riki just recently had some blood work because of his age and also because of some skin allergies, the bill was over $500.

So having a "healthy" dog can be expensive just to maintain good health and have yearly checkups. My dogs have their teeth cleaned two times a year at $80 each x two.

Loving a havanese is a big commitment cost-wise, especially if you don't groom yourself. Yet we love these little characters as they capture our hearts so fast.

We are a passionate bunch and have listened and walked with others who have had many challenges with the breed, no more than other breeds, but just because we are a tight and passionate bunch who care about each other and the health of the breed.

We have heard some very sad stories of the challenges of house-training, the separation anxiety, the tangling puppy to adult coat mats, the spays and neuters, some skin challenges and fleas...but we supported each other through it.

The hardest stories were those of us whose dogs were born with challenges, often from un-health tested parents and lines before we knew that such a thing was important or existed. And then those dogs who were lost...we fretted together. We cried for the lost ones and celebrated the found ones. We are on the journey together.

The Forum takes care of those who take care of us...we are again a tight bunch of passionate havanese lovers. Many of us have years of experience holding hands through puppy selection and training. It is a bond we all have and respect.


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## lcy_pt

Well said Linda!

My breeder made it quite clear to me before we got the boys that the initial cost was not the end. Regular vet visits, unexpected mishaps, grooming, high quality food...this all adds up. Not to mention the combs, brushes, toys and clothing that I've considered a necessity LOL! She wanted to make sure we understood this since all puppies she produces remain her babies...forever.

All of us who have been lucky to find fantastic breeders that *health test *know this and this is why we are *so* passsionate about guiding those who ask for direction on how to choose wisely. Some find this forum after the fact and we always support them too. There are horror stories out there and we all want the best for this breed. We can all learn from mistakes. This is not a forum of elitists that shun those that don't have the 'best' lines in their dogs...whatever _that_ means. This is what makes this forum great...a home away from home...we want all to feel welcome...

But understanding our passion for these little guys also explains why we can get a little heated. This should never be a place for anyone to bash others, especially those that aren't on here to defend themselves. Don't get me wrong...this isn't a perfect world and life happens...we just choose to have this forum remain a learning place....a place of support...and a *fun* place where we can come to smile....not somewhere to air dirty laundry. When it turns nasty we will voice our opinions. (A special thanks to our moderators for keeping us _all_ in check).

These dogs are so special and I've found that the people drawn to them are fun! How can you not be with their clownlike antics, their winning ways, their love of life! (dogs that is LOL) They have the ability to bring big burly men to their knees...guys who swore they wouldn't tolerate a little dog...but these babies are big dogs in little dog suits. You bet your life we want to do anything we can to protect this.

I hope that this thread and others we've had recently doesn't frighten any newcomers away (or long-timers for that matter LOL). We're actually a great bunch of people...but the right to speak freely doesn't mean the right to speak freely anytime and anywhere...a small bit of common sense and manners need to be in place as well. It's tough enough out there for goodness sake!

I'm proud to say that I have Hav-friends from around the world now...thanks to this forum. Even though these guys are still quite rare...anytime I have a question, I can come here and someone will have the answer or be able to direct me where to find it. It was 18 months before I got Harley & Seymour....not to say this is the correct amount of time, but this was my comfort level...all my ducks had to be in a row. I researched this more than anything else in my life LOL...and I'm still learning! I love you guys!!! :grouphug:


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## marjrc

Pat, that is said so well and I thank you for those words of wisdom.  Linda, thank you for your insight as well.


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## Scooter's Family

Very well said Pat and Linda! Thank you!!!


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## karin117

I just remember I have to add something. There is nothing strange that happend when you breed chocolade to chocolade, like if you breed two dogs with the merle gene. 

And off course, if someone know their line very, very, very well, there is nothing wrong do breed that way.


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## Julie

Scooter's Family said:


> Very well said Pat and Linda! Thank you!!!


I completely agree!:yo:


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## Sheri

Pat and Linda,
Beautifully said, made me want to stand up and applaud. :clap2:


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## krandall

karin117 said:


> I just remember I have to add something. There is nothing strange that happend when you breed chocolade to chocolade, like if you breed two dogs with the merle gene.
> 
> And off course, if someone know their line very, very, very well, there is nothing wrong do breed that way.


I didn't mean that there was... I just think that the people who are breeding chocolates MOST in this country are the puppy mills. That's where I see the majority of them listed.


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## TheVintageVamp

While I know it is said Mocha has luxating patellas and that is known to be genetic, if he was in a mill situation, it could also come from spending his entire life on a wire grate in a cage. It is not at all unusual with ANY small breed of dog to find this in mill pups. If they are taken off it soon enough, you can often rehabilitate them without surgery, although they will never have fully normal musculature and nice, straight legs, they won't have acute disability either.

My first thought from the very first post was that this is a dog that has spent his entire life in a wire crate/kennel cage. My vet back in MO that took care of our little Yorkie that turned out to have come from a mill said it is very difficult to differentiate between true luxating patella's and inappropriate musculature/hip/leg development due to being on wire their entire life. He said it is generally best to let a specialist make this type of determination and to always provide as much background information as possible.


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## SMARTY

TheVintageVamp said:


> While I know it is said Mocha has luxating patellas and that is known to be genetic, if he was in a mill situation, it could also come from spending his entire life on a wire grate in a cage. It is not at all unusual with ANY small breed of dog to find this in mill pups. If they are taken off it soon enough, you can often rehabilitate them without surgery, although they will never have fully normal musculature and nice, straight legs, they won't have acute disability either.
> 
> My first thought from the very first post was that this is a dog that has spent his entire life in a wire crate/kennel cage. My vet back in MO that took care of our little Yorkie that turned out to have come from a mill said it is very difficult to differentiate between true luxating patella's and inappropriate musculature/hip/leg development due to being on wire their entire life. He said it is generally best to let a specialist make this type of determination and to always provide as much background information as possible.


You are so right. Several of the dogs that have come through Rescue were thought to have more issue than they did. Exercise and proper nutrition can correct or help many of these. Raised in a mill for 4 months, Galen was believed to have several joint and muscular problems when we got her. Her little hind legs would shift to the side and go out from under her. She actually wobbled a little when she walked. My vet thought I was probably getting a dog that would eventually need surgery. He no longer believes this. She no longer exhibits any signs of any problems.


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## Scooter's Family

Same with Gracie. When she came into HRI we were told she had luxating patella but it turned out she didn't, it was from being crated. Took her a while to learn to go up and down stairs, she couldn't really run, hopped like a bunny, and she sat at an odd angle with her legs out to the side. With good food, lots of exercise, patience (ours and hers!), some training, and lots of love she's now doing so well! Sometimes we still notice that she runs funny or that her gait if off but she can keep up with the other two and the vet finds no problems.

Isn't it just terribly sad what people will do to a living, breathing, feeling animal just for some money? I'd take them all in if I could.


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## SMARTY

Scooter's Family said:


> I'd take them all in if I could.


Then they would call you a horder, call SPCA and animal rescue groups......see how these people get started.


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## TheVintageVamp

Me too, Ann....


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## KrisE

Thank you for that insite Sally. It's only been a week since we've had him. He could walk stairs the day we got him though. If that means anything


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## nancyf

We got Dani two years ago when she was 7. She was bred 4 times and was in the breeder's house but she didn't get that undivided attention. When we brought her home, I wondered what we got ourselves into. But she is so gentle and has grown to trust us. We give her attention and love and she has responded. She'll never be like our Bella that we had from a puppy. She is still terrified of thunderstorms and if I drop something, she will hide ( I think she was under stress in her old home). But Dani is a sweet, loving dog that enjoys Bella but isn't attached to her. She has been good for Bella and Bella for her. It takes lots of time and patience but your older dog will feel at home and comfortable. 

Dani wouldn't leave our sight but we knew she was feeling comfortable when she began going to another room to sleep and rest. I love that little dog.


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## Laurief

Does anyone know where the pup ended up???


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Laurief said:


> Does anyone know where the pup ended up???


No, but I too would like to know.


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## good buddy

I don't know but was curious to find out how it all turned out.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

good buddy said:


> I don't know but was curious to find out how it all turned out.


Think anyone might PM KrisE? Not sure if she is still following the thread, but guess we will see soon?


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## Scooter's Family

She isn't on often, I doubt we'll ever know.


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