# Rescue vs. Breeder for Therapy Dog



## DogMomtoFonzi

Hi Y'all! I hope that this is the right place to put my question ... if not, I do apologize!

My name is Laura and I am an art therapist and Licensed Professional Counselor, working primarily with children, many of whom have been abused/neglected. My employer recently announced that they would be starting an Animal Assisted Therapy program in the next 6 months. Also, my baby Lila (a rescued Bichon Frise) is getting older (at 12.5 years) and slowing down, and I recognize that I don't want an empty house when she crosses the rainbow bridge in the next few years. Both of those reasons have made now the time for me to find another dog to add to my family. I am a firm believer in rescue, and all of my pets growing up and now as an adult have come via rescue/shelter adoption. However, I also know that there are benefits, when wanting a successful therapy dog, to starting with a puppy and "raising them right" from the start, so I have also been in touch with Havanese breeders as well.

I am now in a situation where I'm torn between an adult Havanese mix rescue dog and a full Havanese puppy and am looking to the experts for advice. I had applied for Fonzi http://www.adoptapet.com/pet6992740.html but there was already an approved application for him, so I thought I had missed out. Late tonight I got an email that the adoption fell through and he is available again and I'm "next in line" for consideration. Naturally, I sent his foster mom a long list of questions for more details about him to ensure he's a good fit, but I'm really struggling with what to do.

Anyway, to my main question. To those of you who have done or are familiar with Animal Assisted Therapy, especially with children, would you recommend starting with a puppy (who of course wouldn't be around the kids until he was much older) or do you think an adult dog, with the right training and temperament, could be successful?

I love my Lila, and I'd never give her up for anything, but she's a mill rescue and far too neurotic to ever be a therapy dog. I don't want that to happen again. Also, selfishly, part of me doesn't want to miss out on the sweetness of "puppyhood" again by adopting an older dog. Still another part of me feels some guilt for thinking about "buying" a dog when there are so many out there in need of homes (no offense to any responsible breeders intended as you have my utmost respect).

So, my first post is a book! Thank you for making it this far and for your expert opinions. I have very much enjoyed lurking on this board so far and you've already taught me so much!

Laura


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## miller123

I dont work with therapy animals, but i think that both have there ups and downs, you can train a puppy from the very start, but an adopted animal, depending how he was trained when you get him and at his old home, could turn into a wonderful therapy animal.


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## curly_DC

I adopted/bought Sergio from a breeder when he was 2. I think the benefit if an older dog is what you see is what you get. I knew his temperament was sweet and lovable. I work with a trainer for an hour a week. Yesterday I learned how to get a handle on the treats and I taught him to sit. He did it immediately for me once I learned how. I would be concerned about a rescue that was abused by kids and the dog not wanting to be around kids for therapy play. Find out as much as you can about the rescue's background. It sounds like you really want a puppy. Don't feel guilty about buying from a breeder.


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## Miss Paige

Sounds like you have thought things out-of course a puppy can't be exposed to unfamiliar situations until they have been through classes and are older. But the same holds true for a older Rescue dog-

IMO-a older dog-and by that I mean 1 yr and older will need to first be comfortable in the home sitting-be comfortable with you and bonded to you-takes time but worth every hr you spend bonding. And will need to have completed at least the first level of obedience training before going to the therapy training it should require to work with children. I have two older dogs-one I would not hesitate to work into a therapy program because she loves people the other one would never be comfortable in that sitting. Good luck either way you go-
Also if you are going the puppy journey-BE SURE to find a Great Breeder to get your puppy from-Health Testing of the Dam & Sire are a must-and early socialization of the puppy should also be a huge factor in choosing the breeder. 

Good Luck-keep us posted in your search.
Pat (humom to)
Miss Paige
Mr Roman
Ms Tula (for as long as she needs)


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## CarolWCamelo

I agree with Michele; you need not feel guilty if you decide to get a pup from a reputable breeder. You have already rescued at least one dog - Lila - and clearly given her a good life.

If you do decide to buy from a breeder (and I'd suggest that at this point, considering what you want); you'll need to enlist the breeder's assistance in choosing the right puppy for your needs.

Shelter dogs can make good therapy dogs; at least, that's what I've read - I read VERY widely on the Internet. But if you get a puppy, you can particularly shape that puppy's experiences to enhance its future abilities as a therapy dog.

Of course, there's never a guarantee that a particular dog or puppy will make a good therapy dog, but I believe you have your best chance if you find a really good breeder (see elsewhere on the forum for selecting one), and enlist that breeder's help in choosing just the right puppy for you.

Sat, 31 Mar 2012 07:27:56 (PDT)


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## krandall

I agree with Carol, and would add that once you and your breeder choose the RIGHT puppy, then you have to make sure that from the day you bring your puppy home, it has many, MANY positive experiences with (calm, supervised) young children, as often as possible. 

We happen to live next to an in-home day care. When Kodi was a puppy, we would have all the children sit in a circle on the ground, with two or three tiny treats (or pieces of kibble) each. We would have one after another (in turn) call him over, stroke his back and give him a treat. They learned how to handle a puppy gently, and he learned that they weren't scary!


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## DogMomtoFonzi

Thank y'all so much for your input and thoughts. I really appreciate it! I will definitely keep you posted on what I decide and look forward to being more a part of this community as I learn and grow with whichever dog I decide to give a forever home.  Laura

PS: Finn is the name I chose for my future dog, just in case my name was confusing, LOL.


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## luv3havs

Well, I have to chime in here. All 3 of my dogs are therapy dogs. Two came from breeders, and although I didn't know that I wanted to do animal assisted therapy at the time, I asked for relatively calm puppies. (They are 3 years apart in age). I got what I asked for and saw that they would be good therapy dogs and went through the training and testing process. Chico does the READ program and also animal assisted therapy at a rehab hospital. Cali visits the folks in the nursing home.

Then came Finnegan! I am a volunteer for HRI (Havanese Rescue Inc.) and I always check to see what dogs are coming into rescue. I saw him-he was Hershey at the time- and liked him. I kept looking at his picture and reading all about him. I think I fell in love with him online  I talked with his foster mom and what she told me about him made me think that he would be a good therapy dog. 
Long story short, Finnegan came home to us from Havanese Rescue Inc., and within 6 months we did the training and he passed the test. He is a very good therapy dog, and I have to brag that he is the very first Havanese to participate in Animal Assisted therapy at NIH (National Institutes of Health) In DC. This is a very high level of animal assisted therapy.
Finn loves being a therapy dog and when he sees me get the vest out, he goes crazy, ready to run out the door to visit.
In my opinion, if you'd like to rescue a dog for therapy, talk to the foster and to the group and ask a lot of questions about the dog's temperament. I just looked at Fonzi's bio and he sounds very nice, but you need more info before you decide. Many HRI dogs end up as therapy dogs. some of them are the sweetest dogs you will ever meet. You just have to do a lot of investigating before you decide.
A puppy from an experienced breeder is a good choice also, but do consider the rescue dog in your decision making.
Good luck!


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## DogMomtoFonzi

Hi Nan. Your story about your Finn warms my heart and I'm so impressed that he works with the NIH! How old was he when you adopted him? Since you have been through this process, can you suggest any questions or information that I should be sure to ask and consider in making my decision? Thank you so much for your valuable input, I am very grateful. Laura


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## luv3havs

Hi Laura,
Finnegan was 2 when we got him and had been in the foster home about 6 weeks. The foster mom told me a lot about him on the phone, and I knew from HRI that he was raised as a puppy in a family with children.( Due to family issues they couldn't keep him.)The foster mom told me that she and her husband loved Finnegan and were considering keeping him. She told me that he was housebroken and very friendly and sweet. So that was it for me. I now know that I took a big chance because I didn't meet him before he came to us from out-of-state.
I am assuming that you will get to meet Fonzi or any other rescue? Maybe you could take a trusted trainer with you to help evaluate his temperament in regards to doing therapy. Even if you pay someone, it would be worth it, because you will have the dog for many years and want to make certain he has the temperament that you are looking for.

I would ask the foster how he relates to people of all ages. Does he approach visitors, looking to be petted? Is he relatively calm, and not fearful, affectionate? It doesn't matter if he knows commands etc.,because you will be teaching him all that. If it is a good foster home and the foster has had him more than just a few days, she should be able to give you the information that you need. I think that the rescue should have been in the foster home long enough to settle down a bit and show his true temperament.
Maybe someone else on the forum, breeders or therapy folks, could add to this.

Oh, and I agree with the others that if you REALLY want a puppy, you should go for it and not feel guilty about the rescue issue. 
Best of Luck!


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## DogMomtoFonzi

Thanks, Nan, for the suggestions and for sharing your story. 

I am going to meet Fonzi tomorrow, but I will have at least 1 week "hold" time to decide about making him my forever dog. I am taking to heart all suggestions as well as the research I've done so far and will do my best to be objective tomorrow when we meet for the first time. I know that he is in a safe place no matter what, so that takes some pressure off (vs. visiting a dog in a "kill" shelter type place). 

I also appreciate everyone reinforcing "no guilt" for considering a puppy. My sister, who used to do shelter work, is actually not speaking to me right now since I told her I was considering a breeder as well as rescue. 

Anyway, thanks much to all.  Laura


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## krandall

I often wonder whether Kodi would make a good therapy dog. Once he gets to know someone, they are a friend for life. But he's not immediately, "in your face" friendly to people he doesn't know. He doesn't do anything WRONG, but he will avoid their touch unless they use proper "doggy ettiqutte" and allow him to sniff them first, then approch with a hand toward his chin or chest. If they reach for the top of his head, he ducks away.

How out-going and friendly does a dog need to be to do therapy work? Do they tend to get more used to handling by strangers over time, and do they enjoy it more? Or do they need to be born with that type of disposition?


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## luv3havs

Karen,
That's a good question and I'm not sure of the answer. That is, if a dog must be born with a real outgoing temperament to be a therapy dog. Mine are not the most outgoing dogs I've ever seen. They do like people a lot, are calm and obedient.

With Chico, I always have the kids at the library do what you said, i.e. let him sniff their hands first and I don't let them run up to him, "in his face". And I let him greet them one at a time. Whereas, the Goldendoodle that is on our team and is in the same room with us doesn't care if all the kids run at her and she lets them crawl all over her. 

When we visit places, I often ask people to pet the dog on his/her side or behind the ears. I tell them the dog likes it best. I'd prefer that the people not reach down over the dog's heads. However, over time the dogs don't seem to mind where and how they are touched. I'm pretty vigilant about their comfort level. By the way, I only take one dog on a visit.

Chico lets the folks at the rehab hospital walk him while using a walker (I have my hand on a second leash). He lets them brush him, stroke him, hug him while he is on a table surrounded by 3 or 4 patients and a couple of therapists. He seems to enjoy it even if they are "new" to him. Some of the people have garbled speech and some are missing limbs and appear quite different, due to brain injuries or strokes. He does a great job with all that, whereas I can't imagine Cali being comfortable in that job. She's great with the folks in the nursing home and she parks herself quite cutely,at the side of the wheelchairs and lets people pet her. Finnegan does seem to be more outgoing by nature, in seeking out people that the other two, but they all seem to enjoy it, provided they are in comfortable settings.
When you do therapy, you can choose where you want to go. I would never take Chico or Cali to visit toddlers or pre-schoolers, for example, because they wouldn't love it.

Since Kodi participates in so many events, he must be very used to people, noise,equipment etc. And I know he is super socialized! He'd probably be a good therapy dog after getting more comfortable greeting strangers.That would take some practice and he'd have to be accepting of a hug and being touched all over his body to pass the test. Maybe you and he can do that when you are both older and don't want to be as active as you are now. LOL

Didn't mean to ramble on so. Hope this somewhat answers your question.


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## DogMomtoFonzi

Hi Friends. I met Fonzi yesterday and though I have a week to make my final choice, I think my heart knows what is right (see my avatar). I already have an appointment for him with a trainer and will be calling vets today. Thank you all for your continued feedback, suggestions and advice. I know that I will be calling on your expertise a lot as I help Fonzi adjust to his new forever home.


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## curly_DC

DogMomtoFinn said:


> Hi Friends. I met Fonzi yesterday and though I have a week to make my final choice, I think my heart knows what is right (see my avatar). I already have an appointment for him with a trainer and will be calling vets today. Thank you all for your continued feedback, suggestions and advice. I know that I will be calling on your expertise a lot as I help Fonzi adjust to his new forever home.


Laura: Fonzi is adorable! Have fun!


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## TilliesMom

congratulations!!! He is gorgeous and is clearly smiling in that pic!!


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## luv3havs

Fonzi is so cute. I love his sweet smile.
Looks like he's found his new mama. congratulations!


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## Tom King

There are two basic categories of Therapy dogs. Good, and great. 

Good therapy dogs are ones who are glad to be petted by anyone and go willingly to anyone. Unfortunately for other reasons, these are usually the dumb ones. This is the type that makes a great show dog, because they are so easy to show, but they are not the ones to offer behaviors when doing other kinds of training. They are what Pam calls "inoperant".

Great Therapy dogs are the ones that "melt" into the person holding them. It's kind of a hard thing to describe in words, but they make as complete contact with the person with as much of their body as possible while relaxing completely. They not only melt into the person (another one of Pam's terms), but they instantly melt the heart of whoever is holding them. These can have any level of intelligence, but they are few and far between. They bring out something entirely at another level than simply having a dog in your lap that you can pet. Nike is one of these. She's also one of the most intelligent and athletic dogs of any breed I've ever known, and as Pam says "very operant", and easy to train. I've also known a couple of really dumb ones who were melters too, so it's something besides just one type.


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## krandall

luv3havs said:


> Karen,
> That's a good question and I'm not sure of the answer. That is, if a dog must be born with a real outgoing temperament to be a therapy dog. Mine are not the most outgoing dogs I've ever seen. They do like people a lot, are calm and obedient.
> 
> With Chico, I always have the kids at the library do what you said, i.e. let him sniff their hands first and I don't let them run up to him, "in his face". And I let him greet them one at a time. Whereas, the Goldendoodle that is on our team and is in the same room with us doesn't care if all the kids run at her and she lets them crawl all over her.
> 
> When we visit places, I often ask people to pet the dog on his/her side or behind the ears. I tell them the dog likes it best. I'd prefer that the people not reach down over the dog's heads. However, over time the dogs don't seem to mind where and how they are touched. I'm pretty vigilant about their comfort level. By the way, I only take one dog on a visit.
> 
> Chico lets the folks at the rehab hospital walk him while using a walker (I have my hand on a second leash). He lets them brush him, stroke him, hug him while he is on a table surrounded by 3 or 4 patients and a couple of therapists. He seems to enjoy it even if they are "new" to him. Some of the people have garbled speech and some are missing limbs and appear quite different, due to brain injuries or strokes. He does a great job with all that, whereas I can't imagine Cali being comfortable in that job. She's great with the folks in the nursing home and she parks herself quite cutely,at the side of the wheelchairs and lets people pet her. Finnegan does seem to be more outgoing by nature, in seeking out people that the other two, but they all seem to enjoy it, provided they are in comfortable settings.
> When you do therapy, you can choose where you want to go. I would never take Chico or Cali to visit toddlers or pre-schoolers, for example, because they wouldn't love it.
> 
> Since Kodi participates in so many events, he must be very used to people, noise,equipment etc. And I know he is super socialized! He'd probably be a good therapy dog after getting more comfortable greeting strangers.That would take some practice and he'd have to be accepting of a hug and being touched all over his body to pass the test. Maybe you and he can do that when you are both older and don't want to be as active as you are now. LOL
> 
> Didn't mean to ramble on so. Hope this somewhat answers your question.


Thanks, Nan. That's EXACTLY the kind of input I wanted, and from what you said, it does sound like Kodi would be a candidate when we slow down from dog sports. I hadn't thought about the fact that you can really chose the KIND of therapy work you do with your dog, and I guess I didn't realize how much control you, as the owner, have over the situation. I was just thinking of him getting mobbed by 25 first graders, and putting up with it, but really not enjoying it very much!:biggrin1: I DO know a number of Labs who would probably revel in that kind of attention!ound:


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## krandall

Tom King said:


> There are two basic categories of Therapy dogs. Good, and great.
> 
> Good therapy dogs are ones who are glad to be petted by anyone and go willingly to anyone. Unfortunately for other reasons, these are usually the dumb ones. This is the type that makes a great show dog, because they are so easy to show, but they are not the ones to offer behaviors when doing other kinds of training. They are what Pam calls "inoperant".
> 
> Great Therapy dogs are the ones that "melt" into the person holding them. It's kind of a hard thing to describe in words, but they make as complete contact with the person with as much of their body as possible while relaxing completely. They not only melt into the person (another one of Pam's terms), but they instantly melt the heart of whoever is holding them. These can have any level of intelligence, but they are few and far between. They bring out something entirely at another level than simply having a dog in your lap that you can pet. Nike is one of these. She's also one of the most intelligent and athletic dogs of any breed I've ever known, and as Pam says "very operant", and easy to train. I've also known a couple of really dumb ones who were melters too, so it's something besides just one type.


Well, I am not sure Kodi fits either of those categories. I would call him "slow to warm up" more than anything else. Every once in a while, he'll meet someone and hit it off with them instantaneously, but that's rare. He is ALWAYS polite, even when being handled by unfamiliar people at the vet's office. But if he's on the ground and can keep his distance, he does until HE is ready to make the first move.

OTOH, once he has decided a person is a friend, he practically turns himself inside out with delight every time he sees the person.

That's why I'm not sure whether it's just a matter of continued exposure, (he will do an obedience "stand for exam" with no problem, so it's not that he won't LET people handle him) or whether he just wouldn't enjoy therapy work.


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## krandall

DogMomtoFinn said:


> Hi Friends. I met Fonzi yesterday and though I have a week to make my final choice, I think my heart knows what is right (see my avatar). I already have an appointment for him with a trainer and will be calling vets today. Thank you all for your continued feedback, suggestions and advice. I know that I will be calling on your expertise a lot as I help Fonzi adjust to his new forever home.


Fonzi looks like a total sweetie! Good luck to both of you!


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## luv3havs

Tom,
Regarding your comments about a dog melting into a person,I do know what you mean. I'd have to say that mine aren't great "melters". Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't MELT into a person. Sometimes, they'll sit on a lap and sometimes prefer to sit on the floor next to a person. I do a lot of observing when we visit with a team and I'd say that many of the dogs enjoy being petted, but aren't, as as you described, great melters. (The golden Retrievers all seem to "lean into" the people)
However, they light up the faces of the nursing home residents, and brighten their day. The dog will often get folks talking about the dogs they had earlier in life and transform them for a minute or two. It's great to see and they do melt hearts, although they don't melt into their bodies.

One day, Chico and I were working with a therapist and patients in a room. As each person left, the PT asked them to give a number to their pain level from 1 to 10. I'll never forget when one person said his pain level was an 8 when the session started, but after being with the dog, it went to a 4. It melted my heart!

I have to add that the dog can't be too dumb to be a good/great therapy dog because it has to be able to pass the CGC test and the therapy dog evaluation. A really dumb dog wouldn't pass it, don't you think?


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## Tom King

I guess using the term "dumb" was not exactly correct. I don't know any that I would really consider dumb, but just not the highest intelligence level compared to the really bright ones, or quick to learn. The really intelligent ones question things more than the ones I call dumb, and try to figure out what you want.

Blanchi is our "dumb" one. We call her our dumb blonde. She's been the easiest dog to show we have, but the slowest to learn how to do anything-like the simple sit. She's never offered a behavior in her life. She would have no problem passing the CGC, but no way could she do Rally like Kodi does. Sort of anything goes, but don't bother to ask me to do anything. None of her puppies have been like her though. Nike is one of her daughters, so it's not necessarily something that gets passed on.


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## TilliesMom

I have always been interested in therapy dogs and can see that Tillie would be a fantastic therapy dog, either for children or older people in homes... the biggest 'issue' she has is that she loves people TOO much and wiggles and licks and thinks EVERYONE is her best friend. I keep hoping and thinking maybe she will 'settle down' as she grows up and matures. She really just needs to learn to STAY in sit the WHOLE time she is interacting with someone new. She will for a few minutes, but she literally wiggles and bubbles with excitement and exuberance till she can no longer sit still! LOL
and I don't think there is any therapy dog assesments in our area.... I wonder if I could call a rest home and inquire about therapy dogs??


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## curly_DC

*Havanese Petting Zoo Now Open*

I would also love for Sergio to do therapy "work" and like Karen and Kodi, I'm not sure how Sergio will do because he doesn't let strangers pet him on the head. He'll do the little bunny hop back. He doesn't growl, lunge, bite, or anything like that. He'll hide behind my legs.

When I walk to the little outside shopping area with restaurants and al fresco dining, live concerts/or ice skating rink in the winter, lots of people and kids around, I could put a sign up that says, "Sergio petting zoo now open."

Little kids are attracted to him like crazy. He's small, he's white, he's fluffy, and he wags that little tail.

I'm surprised at the number of parents who really want their kids to pet Sergio, and they won't stop the little ones from walking right up to him and trying to pet him!! They're still in diapers and just barely walking.

I will hold his muzzle away and show them how to pet him on his side. He lets them do it while I'm holding him. One couple actually took a picture of their toddler next to Sergio while I was holding him. I had to laugh when another time this one teeny tiny little girl grabbed his tail, with a huge smile on her face! I was holding him, and she wasn't grasping the concept of "petting" him. Pulling the tail was too tempting!! Sometimes I'll hold up his paw and do the "wave" at them.

I'm taking things very slowly with him when it comes to therapy work. If he's really sensitive, I don't want him to absorb and take in anyone's negative emotional energy, either.


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## luv3havs

Tom,
Just wondering how you would go about choosing a pup in a litter who might be a candidate for pet therapy? For example, if a puppy buyer was trying to obtain a puppy to raise with that in mind. What qualities would you look for?


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## Tom King

luv3havs said:


> Tom,
> Just wondering how you would go about choosing a pup in a litter who might be a candidate for pet therapy? For example, if a puppy buyer was trying to obtain a puppy to raise with that in mind. What qualities would you look for?


We'd look for one of the "melters". Hannahbearsmom's Maccabee was one of those from early on. When they are really young, they are the ones that don't mind being on their backs in your arms, and then you keep watching past that point for the right one. Nike could be picked up any kind of way, and she didn't care a bit. She's one of the very intelligent ones, and will back up from a hand approaching from the top, but she will sail up into anyone's lap and melt.


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## luv3havs

Tom,
That's interesting but not surprising. I would love to have had that opportunity, to pick from a litter with therapy in mind, but when we got our two Havs, a couple of years apart, I just wanted a sweet dog for the family. I had no intention of doing therapy when we got each one as puppies.

They were very sweet and quick learners, I and worked with the dogs when I decided to do the therapy a few years later.

With Finn, the rescue dog, it was part of the plan. I don't think he is the brightest of the three, but he surely makes people say AWWW! How beautiful and sweet!

It's fun and rewarding and makes a difference in people's lives, even if it's for a few minutes. It gives the dogs a job, too, which is always good!
Since you all like pictures, here are some of Finnegan charming the staff. The docs and nurses love to take a quick stress break and pet the dog.


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## krandall

Adorable photos!!!


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## lise

A wonderful thread. I have sent the info about the good therapy dog and the great therapy dog to my breeder hoping she can watch Ted as he matures. Just by looking at him, I think he may be great!


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## TilliesMom

awwwwwww, LOVE the photos!! awesome! We are working hard and hoping to pass the therapy dog training this fall!! Can't wait to share pics like yours someday!!


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## lise

My breeder responded and said Ted should be a great therapy dog as both of his parents definately melt into anyones lap!


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