# Growling showing aggresion towards kids



## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

Hi-
I am very sad to report this but wanted to see if what I did today for correction you think is good.

I gave Harry a new bone, apparently he loves it, too much!
He has been carrying it around, not chewing on it.
My 4 year old went near him and he growled at her.
I told him no, and gave him a touch.

She then did the same thing and he did the same thing, I did the same thing, except I was standing right there, and he got a correction more immediately.

Now my 1.5 year old was growled and snapped at, same situation, he had the bone, and she went to touch it, I did the same correction.

Then I took the bone away from him and he is currently in his crate with no bone.

Should I start having my kids feed him? Have my kids give it and take away method? He has never shown this type of behavior with other items or treats just this new bone.
I noticed he also tried to go under the table with it and he even hid it under the sofa today.

I have to be able to trust him around my kids, he does jump on them and he does mouth them but never aggresively and I even try to correct that behavior also. But I am inconsistent with it and he does it all the time.


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## karin117 (Mar 29, 2008)

Hi

I must start by say, I am not for physical punishment, or crate as a punishment. The crate, if you use one, should be the place the dog LOVE to be in, where they are safe, and feel good.

I is not good that he is growling at your children, but this is very easy resovled by NOT giving him this fantastic bone, that he feel that he need to protect. And your children should of course not have "all access" to him all the time.

If you want to give him a bone he like, give it to him in he´s crate, witch should be he´s "caste" a place he can go and KNOW that he will be left alone.

Young childre...I have a few myself need to respect the dogs and their "integrity" too. 

Yes, growling is bad, but try to think about how you could have done the situation different...and work from that. This is not your dogs "fault", he was put in a situation that he could not handle. Your responsibility as a leader is to make sure he is not put in them, and as a mom, show your children how to act and behave with your dog...


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I ditto Karin. We had lots of issues with Gryff and my son Alec. Alec couldn't come anywhere near Gryff for a while without Gryff growling at him. It took a while, but Alec needed to respect Gryff's space and Gryff needed to know his place in our pack. You do need to be consistent in whatever training you do with Harry.

I like his name. Are you a Potter fan? That's where Gryff's name comes from.


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## Annie Clark (Nov 6, 2008)

I realized Nala is very growly with other dogs if she has a special treat. I just give her treats when their are not other dogs around. We don't have kids but I think she might do the same as Harry.

In the beginning I practiced giving her bones and then taking them away. 

Good luck!


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

My kids do respect him. They are really great with him overall. They don't have free run with him unsupervised. They don't tease him, go into his crate etc. I don't use his crate as punishment either. But you guys think it is impractical for me to think that no matter what Harry has he should not be acting negatively towards them when he has it?

That is what is upsetting because my kids are good with him, especially considering how young they are.
I have lost some trust in him.
Now what should I do?


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## LuvCicero (Mar 31, 2008)

Trying to make sure I understand. Does he "only" do this bad behavior with that one bone. If so...I would take the bone away for good because there are other things he can play with and chew on. Or use those bones as special...by giving him one when you put him in his crate when everyone is leaving the house. Only allow things that are working good for you, him, and the kids. Don't allow things that are not working in a good way.


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## karin117 (Mar 29, 2008)

I say the same again. If you want to give him things that he feel like he need to protect...do it in he´s crate...and do not disturb him.

In other case, do not give him the bone that make a problem for you.

Read my answer again, please!

I never use hard metods, I use contact training, a lot a positiv reinforsment. I have never had any problems with letting go of things...they would trop ANYTHING with a "thankyou" from me...from the other side of the garden.

My chidren do fun stuff with my dogs...but they are always supervised. I feel that is my responsibility as a mom...and as the dogs leader...to protect them from behaving bad...both of them.

To have a dog in your life should be FUN, for both the family and the dog. It take some work if you are new at this...but you get there...


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

I am positive with him in training, he isn't smacked around and such.
So far it is that one bone, but yet I am afraid to "test" him with other things since the kids would probably have to be the ones to "test" him. He doesn't do it to me, and when he didn't do it to me, I praised him. 
When he let my son take it away from him the first ime we praised him, but then the second time he growled.

*Now what if he starts doing this with all his toys/chew/treats/food things?*


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

ivyagogo said:


> I ditto Karin. We had lots of issues with Gryff and my son Alec. Alec couldn't come anywhere near Gryff for a while without Gryff growling at him. It took a while, but Alec needed to respect Gryff's space and Gryff needed to know his place in our pack. You do need to be consistent in whatever training you do with Harry.
> 
> I like his name. Are you a Potter fan? That's where Gryff's name comes from.


So what were some of the things you did? How did you safely incorporate your kids?


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

karin117 said:


> Hi
> 
> I must start by say, I am not for physical punishment, or crate as a punishment. The crate, if you use one, should be the place the dog LOVE to be in, where they are safe, and feel good.
> 
> ...


This is exactly what I would have written. I agree completely.
Carole


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## Miss Paige (Apr 4, 2008)

Sam:

You might also want to go to the Havanese Rescue Web-site where you will find tips-links to a lot of good information.

www.havaneserescue.com is the site-there you will see a Behavior/training heading-click on that and hopefully you will find other good information to go along with the great information you are getting here on the forum.
Pat (humom to)
Miss Paige
Mr Roman
Ms Frannie


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## DAJsMom (Oct 27, 2006)

There is some training you can do to teach your dog to drop what he has. It involves getting him to let go of something he values and being rewarded with a "high value" treat. This makes his letting go of the bone a positive thing. We learned it in a clicker training class. 
I agree with Karin. You need to not put the dog in a situation that he can't handle while you work on teaching him and the kids the things they need to know to get along safely. You don't want him growling at the kids, but you need to keep him out of situations that make him feel the need to protect himself until he learns that he can drop the bone and it's a good thing. Work with him on learning to drop the bone for a better treat, and then work on teaching the kids how to safely take the bone, or just to leave him alone when he has the bone.


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## karin117 (Mar 29, 2008)

I think it is important that you do not feel that you are questioned. Perhaps this is your first dog...?

I do not think that you are "smacking" your dog around. I think that you want the best for your children and your dog...and you are not familiar to the "klicker" think...or the new way of thinking in dog training...

I have children who play and learn the dogs tricks...but they are not allowed to do things that I know can stress the dogs...
My dogs, most of them, love the children, and like to be with them and train with them...since they know it will be a positiv experience...But I make SURE that it will be just that...positiv...Children can be unprecitibal and i do NOT want that to be a bad experince for either one of them...so I supervise...and give a lot of "ooohaaa" for both children and dogs...

If you start thinking like me...there will be no problem with growling to the children over wath so ever...They will know to give one an other space and to have fun togeher. But YOU need to think about how a 1½ and a 4 years old works...and how a dog works...dogs do not "think" and remember as a human...and they can NOT put two and two togheter...but they can learn...


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Sam375 said:


> Now what should I do?


NILF!! Establish the pack order in the house and you'll see a difference. I know, it sounds too easy but it works.
http://www.pets.ca/articles/article-dog_nilf.htm


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## marb42 (Oct 19, 2008)

Hi Sam, I know what you're going through, and I know it's hard to figure out the right way to train. Marble is pretty good, but he will growl and snap if someone comes near while he has a bully stick. I am working on this by trying to teach him "leave it" and giving him a piece of chicken as he drops the bully stick. I then give it back to him and repeat. We practice for about 5 min. as much as possible. Dave posted an article on this, but I couldn't find it anywhere. I think it was at ttp://www.dogstardaily.com, but I couldn't find it there either. I think you should only give him this bone when you can watch him and work with him using another treat. I had to tell my kids to stay away from him when he has the bully stick. The article really broke it down, so I'm sorry I couldn't find it. I agree about not using the crate so that he will not hate being in there should you need to put him there. If you need to give Harry a time out for any reason, maybe the bathroom would work. I'm still working on this myself, so I think some dogs will take longer to learn this. Good luck!
Gina


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## sweater32 (Dec 12, 2008)

Hi Harry's mom, that had to be a very scary frightening experience when Harry growled and snapped at the kids. With younger children who are so eager, to play with the dog and see what he is doing or hording causes alarm when in return the dog snaps. Do not minimize the seriousness of it for it can and probably will get worst if not corrected. For now, you need to watch every little move the children do around Harry until you can trust him again and the children learn and understand how to act around Harry. I do have a firm belief that if a dog feels threaten, he is the one who should walk away from a situation and not the humans. However, a dog also does not deserve to be jump on, hair pulled, etc. Your 1.5 year old is not going to understand your directions to stay away from the dog during certain periods and I would hate to see the four year old become fearful of Harry. I am sure your desire is to have a family pet that interacts with the kids with no issues. How old is Harry? You can take several routes, depending on your time and finances. I highly recommend dog Obedient classes and a good trainer will allow your four year old to go with you. They want the whole family to interact in the teaching. Also, make sure the trainer uses positive reinforcement for behavior training. At the classes, you will learn how to teach your dog to leave it, drop it and to control the aggression with many fun things too like stay, sit, down etc. I like the classes for you actually see firsthand what to do and able to apply it in front of the trainer. Usually at the end of classes, you have question and answer periods. If that is not an option then I would read dog training books. The most important thing is what everyone else was saying about not punishing and using positive reinforcement and consistency to teach. Marb's way is the way I was taught in class. Dog Whisperer is a TV show with a trainer who is excellent. He has a web site that you can pay monthly and watch tutorial lessons in dog training. For now, I would take the bone away from Harry when the children are near. I think the suggestion of giving it to him only in the crate was an excellent idea for as written above you don't want him to associate the crate with punishment but a haven for him to go. It's sounds complicated but it really isn't. Once you learn how to use positive reinforcement you will adapt it to everything and it works!! And, the internet is full of web sites that will explain PR and how to apply it. Good luck!

Web site for Dog Whisperer is: http://www.cesarmillaninc.com


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## tikaboo (Aug 9, 2008)

*I am in the same situation......*

I am in the same situation. Tika has one person in our family that she considers a threat to her rank. She can be very possessive of her spot on the couch particularly with this one son who is 15. She bit him last night.....not good:nono: I know something needs to change, pronto. I think we have spoiled her by not treating her like a dog. I am slowly coming to the realization that we may be more of the problem than she is. I think , no I know, I am the one who needs the training. There is a show here in Canada called "At the end of my leash" by Brad Pattison who is a trainer. I just started watching it this week. It seems like a no nonsense, tough love approach for dog owners that need the training. I am hoping some others have heard of it and might have an opinion. I have watched the first few episodes of the first season and he seems to make a difference in the lives of the dogs and owners. I know not every method is perfect and you have to take what works from each and use what you can. Here is the link.http://www.slice.ca/Slice/Watch/Default.aspx
I am trying some of his methods this week to see if we can turn things around. If things start to change I will probably order his book.
I am excited for the changes that this new challenge is bringing on. I want what is best for her and us as a family.


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

I have come to realize that Harry is a unique combination. He is somewhat dominant but yet insecure.
He jumps on the kids and I try to correct with the whole, down, snap my fingers. He also gets mouthy with them, trying to play, because of course as they run around he runs with them....oooohhhhh, its play time for me to dominate my little herd.
The problem is the kids are good with him, but they WANT to play with him. I don't want the kids to be fearful of him, but yet continue to respect him and he not growl at them over anything. we (me and dh)tested him tonight with the bone and he is fine with us. I am convinced its dominance, but I am uneasy with it because in some ways I think it could potentially be more dangerous since he is also insecure and somtimes timid.

So my challenge is going to be how do I safely get my kids to become pack leaders?
I had my 6 yr old give him his pm meal, take it away, give it back, etc He was fine. I had my 6 and 4 yr old do sit, come and give a treat to him. He has yet to learn down, roll over, which is more of a submissive form. I have to be able to trust him. Even if he is in his cage, its not fair to a family with small kids or the dog if not everyone is comfortable with him all the time. 
This has really worried me and made me nervous. I wonder how expensive it would be to consult a professional.
He is neutered and 7 months old.


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

sweater32 said:


> Hi Harry's mom, that had to be a very scary frightening experience when Harry growled and snapped at the kids. With younger children who are so eager, to play with the dog and see what he is doing or hording causes alarm when in return the dog snaps. Do not minimize the seriousness of it for it can and probably will get worst if not corrected. For now, you need to watch every little move the children do around Harry until you can trust him again and the children learn and understand how to act around Harry. I do have a firm belief that if a dog feels threaten, he is the one who should walk away from a situation and not the humans. However, a dog also does not deserve to be jump on, hair pulled, etc. Your 1.5 year old is not going to understand your directions to stay away from the dog during certain periods and I would hate to see the four year old become fearful of Harry. I am sure your desire is to have a family pet that interacts with the kids with no issues. How old is Harry? You can take several routes, depending on your time and finances. I highly recommend dog Obedient classes and a good trainer will allow your four year old to go with you. They want the whole family to interact in the teaching. Also, make sure the trainer uses positive reinforcement for behavior training. At the classes, you will learn how to teach your dog to leave it, drop it and to control the aggression with many fun things too like stay, sit, down etc. I like the classes for you actually see firsthand what to do and able to apply it in front of the trainer. Usually at the end of classes, you have question and answer periods. If that is not an option then I would read dog training books. The most important thing is what everyone else was saying about not punishing and using positive reinforcement and consistency to teach. Marb's way is the way I was taught in class. Dog Whisperer is a TV show with a trainer who is excellent. He has a web site that you can pay monthly and watch tutorial lessons in dog training. For now, I would take the bone away from Harry when the children are near. I think the suggestion of giving it to him only in the crate was an excellent idea for as written above you don't want him to associate the crate with punishment but a haven for him to go. It's sounds complicated but it really isn't. Once you learn how to use positive reinforcement you will adapt it to everything and it works!! And, the internet is full of web sites that will explain PR and how to apply it. Good luck!
> 
> Web site for Dog Whisperer is: http://www.cesarmillaninc.com


This is my dilemma, but my kids are good with him, they never hurt him or are overly rough with him.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

tikaboo said:


> I think we have spoiled her by not treating her like a dog. .


That could be the Small Dog Syndrome
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/articles/smalltoydogs.htm
Treat a 10 pound dog like a 100 pound dog and you see different results. But darn, little ones are so cute that it's easy to slip :biggrin1:


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

This type of situation is why many breeders won't place a dog w/a family who has children under 8 years old....

Nevertheless, Harry is with you now and the situation must be dealt with. I agree w/Jan, use NILF, it really does work.


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## marisoma (Jan 20, 2008)

Hi Sam!

I also recommend NILIF. We have been doing it with Giotto and it's been working. He had some growling/dominance type issues. He's not an alpha or dominant dog at all, but we realized he was insecure and that was causing much of his unwanted behavior. I guess we confused him as to who is the boss, so he tried to be the boss.

In your situation, if it is only the bone that is an issue then I think for now at least that would be something he only gets in his crate where he can have it alone and is no threat to your children (or vice versa). But imo that doesn't teach him anything and this is something that could progress from a beloved bone to anything in the house and you do want to be able to trust your dog not to growl or snap at your child (unprovoked, at least). What I think I would do is each time he growls or snaps at someone over the bone, he loses the bone. I don't even think you have to say anything, just take it away. Eventually I think he will make the connection between the behavior and the result of losing the bone. I would also not leave him unsurpervised with your children and like you are already doing I would have them feed him, and try simple commands with him like "sit" and "stay" so he can realize they are leaders in the house. 

What we have been doing with Giotto when he gets out of line is basically a time out. The trainer recommended this as a way to establish our role as leader and to get Giotto to obey our commands. His big issue is he can get very excited and then he starts to jump and get nippy and bark. Usually we can say "Enough" or "Giotto Sit" and he'll stop, but there are times he's just too overly excited or is just being a pain with this behavior. In these cases when he was told to stop and didn't, we bring him to a different room (usually the bathroom) and he is there with no attention for about a minute or two. When the time is up (or he is quiet) we go to him and tell him to sit. If he does so, he's free. If not, he waits and we try again. This really has worked and it was pretty easy to do. In the beginning I had to do this maybe 3-4 times a day. Now I do it maybe 3-4 times a week, if that much. 

Good luck with your dog! He is still very young so he's learning. If you haven't already, it might be a good idea to take a training class with him. It will be a good way for you to put into practice some commands and learn how to deal with his behavior, and it's a good way to bond with your dog.


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

see I read all the small dog syndrome stuff, and I correct him. I guess the problem still goes back to he respects my corrections, but not the kids. 

The kids correct him too, I am going to do the food thing and make them give him more commands, etc. 
I just worry then about my 1.5 yr old also.
I thank you for all the advice, I keep reading!


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## karin117 (Mar 29, 2008)

Hi
You have a 7 mounts old dog that you say in insecure. You need to think if letting your children (1½ and 4 years old) correct him will that situation better?

We are several here talking about positiv reinforcment, and your children can be involved in that...they can learn to do small tricks together with him...superviced by you, and have a chance to give him postiv feedback...I promiss you, that is a good buildningstone for a fun relationship between the children and your dog.

I never let my children "play" with the dogs. But they do fun stuff together, learning and enjoying things...
The "play", if it is run around builds up stress and a situation that is as made for bad behavior. You do not want bad behavior...you want calm, unstresst situation...where your dog behave good, and you can reward that behavior...the good behavior...Instead of correct the bad.

You need to build up a confidens on your dog...And you need to make sure that the children akt in a responsible way with your dog. AND NO a 1½ year old can not know how to behav in this situation...and I do not think a 4 year need A LOT of help from the parent to interact with the dog in a good way.


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

karin117 said:


> Hi
> You have a 7 mounts old dog that you say in insecure. You need to think if letting your children (1½ and 4 years old) correct him will that situation better?
> 
> We are several here talking about positiv reinforcment, and your children can be involved in that...they can learn to do small tricks together with him...superviced by you, and have a chance to give him postiv feedback...I promiss you, that is a good buildningstone for a fun relationship between the children and your dog.
> ...


I am looking for constructive criticism and advice. I think you have judged my situation without really knowing, based on the fact that I have 3 small children.
My kids correct him in telling him no and sit, which is also what my 1.5 yr old does, but of course she is just mimmicking.
My kids play with him but never in a rough manner. I believe in positive training, but I think a combination of training techniques is probably more realistic, I don't think in every situation only one type of training works. If a puppy gets excited and nips, it needs to be corrected, if a puppy jumps up it needs to be corrected....If he is doing what he is suspose to be doing, that needs to be rewarded.
No matter, I don't need to defend myself to you, you just seem to think that kids and dogs should just be quietly with each other or have a very structured play. I think this may be the case with a big dominate breed but I don't think it is unreasonable to have a life with a Hav that I can trust with my children IF I do turn my back, or IF they do play too rough or happen to run around screaming for a minute.
Plenty of kids get bitten but plenty of kids grow up with dogs without incident, which is what I want to happen here.

I believe Harry is a good dog in need of my kids being put in a more dominant role.
I guess I assumed that if we were dominant ( me and dh)and he wasn't showing signs of aggression then I only needed to train him in manners but that was wrong. I guess I need to apply those techniques out there for making your dog low man on the totem pole and make my kids as much of a part of that as possible. I hope it works! Any one else who would like to nicley comment I am still listening!


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## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

Hello. I also have 3 kids! Mine were older than yours [youngest 4] but similar issues.

I did a trick that I read about on here.

If he growled at someone, I'd roll him on his back and growl. I'd also have my kids do that [with my supervision]. Only right when he growled. It really helped. They would praise him like crazy when he would apologize [he would get up and lick their face]. I also had them treat him often. My youngest who is still his least favorite still uses this technique to play with Winston. They were playing chase in the yard. They run around,Winston gets a treat, they run some more, etc.

Best of luck. I know it's hard with the young kids because they don't realize that what they do might not be fun for the dog.

:hug:


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## karin117 (Mar 29, 2008)

I do not think that correction will take you where you want to go...A happy relationship between your family and your dog. But I rest my case...


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

sweater32 said:


> Hi Harry's mom, that had to be a very scary frightening experience when Harry growled and snapped at the kids. With younger children who are so eager, to play with the dog and see what he is doing or hording causes alarm when in return the dog snaps. Do not minimize the seriousness of it for it can and probably will get worst if not corrected. For now, you need to watch every little move the children do around Harry until you can trust him again and the children learn and understand how to act around Harry. I do have a firm belief that if a dog feels threaten, he is the one who should walk away from a situation and not the humans. However, a dog also does not deserve to be jump on, hair pulled, etc. Your 1.5 year old is not going to understand your directions to stay away from the dog during certain periods and I would hate to see the four year old become fearful of Harry. I am sure your desire is to have a family pet that interacts with the kids with no issues. How old is Harry? You can take several routes, depending on your time and finances. I highly recommend dog Obedient classes and a good trainer will allow your four year old to go with you. They want the whole family to interact in the teaching. Also, make sure the trainer uses positive reinforcement for behavior training. At the classes, you will learn how to teach your dog to leave it, drop it and to control the aggression with many fun things too like stay, sit, down etc. I like the classes for you actually see firsthand what to do and able to apply it in front of the trainer. Usually at the end of classes, you have question and answer periods. If that is not an option then I would read dog training books. The most important thing is what everyone else was saying about not punishing and using positive reinforcement and consistency to teach. Marb's way is the way I was taught in class. Dog Whisperer is a TV show with a trainer who is excellent. He has a web site that you can pay monthly and watch tutorial lessons in dog training. For now, I would take the bone away from Harry when the children are near. I think the suggestion of giving it to him only in the crate was an excellent idea for as written above you don't want him to associate the crate with punishment but a haven for him to go. It's sounds complicated but it really isn't. Once you learn how to use positive reinforcement you will adapt it to everything and it works!! And, the internet is full of web sites that will explain PR and how to apply it. Good luck!
> 
> Web site for Dog Whisperer is: http://www.cesarmillaninc.com


Colleen I have to disagree with you . Cesar Millan is as far away from positive reinforcement type training as you can get. The same with our Canadian counterpart Brad Pattison. If you want to read about RESOURCE GUARDING read Jean Donaldson's book called MINE . As far as the growl itself, this is a good thing. This is a dog's warning signal. You should never "correct" a growl. Here is a good article about resource guarding and another article about growling. http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/guarding-valued-objects http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/why-growl-good


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Sam375 said:


> So what were some of the things you did? How did you safely incorporate your kids?


For a period of time, Alec had sole responsibility for feeding and walking Gryff but always under my supervision. If Alec pet Gryff without a growl, Gryff would get a treat and Alec would give it to him.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

,


DAJsMom said:


> There is some training you can do to teach your dog to drop what he has. It involves getting him to let go of something he values and being rewarded with a "high value" treat. This makes his letting go of the bone a positive thing. We learned it in a clicker training class.
> I agree with Karin. You need to not put the dog in a situation that he can't handle while you work on teaching him and the kids the things they need to know to get along safely. You don't want him growling at the kids, but you need to keep him out of situations that make him feel the need to protect himself until he learns that he can drop the bone and it's a good thing. Work with him on learning to drop the bone for a better treat, and then work on teaching the kids how to safely take the bone, or just to leave him alone when he has the bone.


Joelle you have got the right idea. Until he learns to give up the valued resource with everyone don't put him into that situation. Once Harry learns that by giving up the object something positive will result and that he will get it right back he will not be so protective. Don' t simply give it to him in his crate because that will not teach him anything . He will still resource guard. They can guard anything ,some dogs with guard a toy more than a juicy bone.


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## baxterboy (Mar 17, 2009)

Sam375 said:


> I am looking for constructive criticism and advice. I think you have judged my situation without really knowing, based on the fact that I have 3 small children.
> My kids correct him in telling him no and sit, which is also what my 1.5 yr old does, but of course she is just mimmicking.
> My kids play with him but never in a rough manner. I believe in positive training, but I think a combination of training techniques is probably more realistic, I don't think in every situation only one type of training works. If a puppy gets excited and nips, it needs to be corrected, if a puppy jumps up it needs to be corrected....If he is doing what he is suspose to be doing, that needs to be rewarded.
> No matter, I don't need to defend myself to you, you just seem to think that kids and dogs should just be quietly with each other or have a very structured play. I think this may be the case with a big dominate breed but I don't think it is unreasonable to have a life with a Hav that I can trust with my children IF I do turn my back, or IF they do play too rough or happen to run around screaming for a minute.
> ...


I have been reading through the thread, and I just wanted to say that I agree with you. I also have 3 kids, and I guess I just see things the same way that you do. I agree that correction and positive reinforcement need to go hand in hand. I think the NILIF philosophy is key, and I agree with the others about losing the bone or having it be his special treat that he only gets in his crate (when you leave the house.) I think he'll be just fine. All kids are different, and you know your kids. I can say my kids are gentle and respectful with Baxter till I'm blue in the face, but it won't make anyone believe me.... I had that issue with finding a rescue hav....no one would give me a second look on paper because I had a 4 year old. If you are truly commited to raising and training a good dog, and you teach your kids how to be respectful to him right from the start, I see no problem with letting them play with him. Obviously the 1.5 year old needs to be supervised, but you already know that. As far as an older children, I think never letting your kids play with the dog unsupervised is going a little far. It's kind of depriving them both of forming a true bond IMO---something that really is pretty extraordinary and special. If your children do things that make you question your trust in them around the dog, then I understand completely. But, if they consistently treat the dog with gentleness, respect and dignity, then I see no reason to go to that extreme.


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## baxterboy (Mar 17, 2009)

Sam375 said:


> I have come to realize that Harry is a unique combination. He is somewhat dominant but yet insecure.
> He jumps on the kids and I try to correct with the whole, down, snap my fingers. He also gets mouthy with them, trying to play, because of course as they run around he runs with them....oooohhhhh, its play time for me to dominate my little herd.
> The problem is the kids are good with him, but they WANT to play with him. I don't want the kids to be fearful of him, but yet continue to respect him and he not growl at them over anything. we (me and dh)tested him tonight with the bone and he is fine with us. I am convinced its dominance, but I am uneasy with it because in some ways I think it could potentially be more dangerous since he is also insecure and somtimes timid.
> 
> ...


It seems to me that since he only does this (the possessiveness with the bone) with your children, that he is trying to find his 'place' in the pack. He knows not to do it with you, because he has accepted your place as pack leader. He just needs time (and your help) to figure out that your children are not his packmates---they are also pack leaders.

Baxter mouthed my kids for a brief time (3 weeks or so) and it started about a month after we got him. I had them say "Ouch! no bite" and then immediately stop all play---and ignore him. Anyone in the room would turn their back (myself included.) After a few minutes they would then go back to playing, or petting him and if he did it again---same thing. After about 3 weeks the mouthing stopped completely. On 2 seperate occasions, I also caught him marking in the children's rooms (before he was neutered) when I was putting them to bed. I think this was a vunerable time for him, seeing me lay in their beds reading to them, singing to my youngest, etc. He was trying to find his place in the pack. I think all puppies who come into families (and in your case even more so because he is even older than Baxter was) need to find their place in the pack. They will try to test their place---see if they can move up. It's our job to make sure they know that they are not above the kids... the kids are not their pack-mates because it's easy for them to see them as such.

I have never allowed the kids to play rough with Baxter (no tug of war) or rolling around on the floor because I want to continue to instill the fact that they are not his pack-mates. He does see them now as alphas in the house, and even listens to the "drop it" command from them...(would never have done that 2 months ago.) It will come in time---he's testing his place in the pack---and that is why he is insecure. Once he knows where his place is, he'll be happier, you'll be happier, and your children will be happy. It'll just take patience, consistency and time.


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

I am getting some great encouragement.
Baxter boy - you KNOW WHAT I MEAN! You are in my head and have an almost identical situation...wish you lived next door!
It is soooooo very encouraging to hear you have had success. My kids including my 1.5 yr old are overall great with him, which is why its even more confusing to me.
There are times when my children need correction, but it isn't often nor major. The more I think about things the more I have realized that he has slowly progressed to wanting to be alpha over the kids. I wonder how long it will take to put him back down.

Like tonight I am changing my 1.5 yr old on the floor, Harry of course is there being nosy, and of course wanting to paw at her and play with her while she is laying on the floor. Of course I realize that he can no longer be allowed near her since he thinks he is above her. So, I attempt to make him sit, and even lay down a respectable distance from her while I change her. 
He barked at me, rolled over, layed down, pawed at me, licked my hand, and even of course mouthed me all at the same time every time I corrected him.
He doesn't like it when I am out of his sight and he will whine when we leave in the morning for me to taxi around my kids.
He started finding things in the yard and when I go to get it from him he has me chasing after him, which is TOTALLy backwards. He didn't use to do that, before I would tel him to come or sit and then I would take it away, now he is running away.
Slowly things changed, so I think he is testing boundaries, being dominant.
I believe in trying to be as positive I can be but if a dog is doing something really bad I believe you have to immediately stop that action right away.
I have read that if you have a dominant sensitive dog like I think Harry is then correcting a growl or even forcing a rollover can be bad. I read that the dog can learn not to growl and instead just bite. Which of course concerns me. There is soo much good info out there for training, and its hard to figure out what pieces of all of it is best for each situation.


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

Leslie said:


> This type of situation is why many breeders won't place a dog w/a family who has children under 8 years old....
> 
> .


I don't think that's fair either. All the media says adopt, adopt adopt, and then a rescue says sorry, you have kids.....
So, you look in a kill shelter, but if you need a nonshedding, or certain size, your kids could be in college by the time you may find something that you can live with......Then don't buy from the pet store!!!!! Mills!!! Don't buy from classified..mills...backyard breeders..bad genetics, etc.

So, you go to a reputable breeder, your commited, saved the $....sorry you have kids.
Just my 2 cents since there are alot of good families out there trying to get apuppy and it can be very hard.


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

marisoma said:


> Hi Sam!
> 
> But imo that doesn't teach him anything and this is something that could progress from a beloved bone to anything in the house and you do want to be able to trust your dog not to growl or snap at your child (unprovoked, at least). What I think I would do is each time he growls or snaps at someone over the bone, he loses the bone. I don't even think you have to say anything, just take it away. Eventually I think he will make the connection between the behavior and the result of losing the bone. I would also not leave him unsurpervised with your children .


You understand, thanks for the story!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

[QUOTE I read that the dog can learn not to growl and instead just bite. Which of course concerns me. There is soo much good info out there for training, and its hard to figure out what pieces of all of it is best for each situation.[/QUOTE]

This statement is so true, and there is a lot of info out there. I think you understand the need to read and then decide which makes the most sense. I admire your desire to do the best things for your dog and your family. The only thing that I think is holding you back with certain issues is your belief that dogs are trying to dominate us. There are sooo many great articles that refute this theory. I think that if you viewed your dog as simply wanting good things that it would make this so much easier. Hugs and wags Dave and Molly .


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> [QUOTE I read that the dog can learn not to growl and instead just bite. Which of course concerns me. There is soo much good info out there for training, and its hard to figure out what pieces of all of it is best for each situation.


This statement is so true, and there is a lot of info out there. I think you understand the need to read and then decide which makes the most sense. I admire your desire to do the best things for your dog and your family. The only thing that I think is holding you back with certain issues is your belief that dogs are trying to dominate us. There are sooo many great articles that refute this theory. I think that if you viewed your dog as simply wanting good things that it would make this so much easier. Hugs and wags Dave and Molly .[/QUOTE]

I am trying to take everything into account and I appreciate your support and appreciate your not judging me based on my 3 little kids. I am no expert just trying my hardest to have a safe happy family for everyone.
So, I know you do not agree with the cesar stlye. so, tell me what would you do based on your technique...
Your Pup is laying in a dog bed, your young child goes near him while he has a bone and the child gets very close to the dog, definately in biting distance and definately the hand is close to the bone/mouth. growl and a little snap.

Back off? Wait for a relax and then reward?


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

So, this is what I have been doing with Harry during feeding time. I have been having my son give him his bowl of food and take it away. My son tells him to sit before giving it back to him everytime. I noticed that when he starts to dig in and my son puts a closed fist near the bowl instead of swiftly taking it away Harry didn't back away or stop eating, his ears go up instead and he becomes still. He is hard to read with all that hair!. I think this is the dangerous part. He didn't growl, but I did a snap of my fingers to break it and then he moved and sat down, which I praised him for. Which would be a real life situation. ... He is really into something and the kids are close to whatever he is really into and he needs to not see them as a threat and just be relaxed over it or move away and leave the item alone.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I think it is great you are getting the kids involved in the care cause I think that definitely helps your pup look at the children in a different light. My one dog who is naturally very dominant with dogs and people, has growled at my husband before pretty threatening when she first had raw bones. While it is easier to explain to my husband what needs to be done it is harder for children. I think it is a great idea to have your son be the one to feed the pup. I would be careful with how much taking away of the bowl, etc cause you don't want it to turn into teasing/nagging the dog. I would say leave bones and high value treats for the crate- maybe you can even have the children give him the bone but I think you should be the one to take it away and just remove the situation from children and dog interaction is my advice.


I also want to address why a lot of rescues don't allow families with small children- scared and insecure dogs are usually the ones that bite. And guess what types of rescue dogs that come in the most often especially mill dogs. It isn't because rescue doesn't think families with children would be wonderful. A lot more children get bitten by dogs than adults each year. It often takes a long time for a rescue dog to adjust to a new house and how do you keep small children from visiting the dog for a few weeks while it adjusts. And all it takes is an innocent act of a child approaching a dog too fast, etc.


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## baxterboy (Mar 17, 2009)

ama0722 said:


> I think it is great you are getting the kids involved in the care cause I think that definitely helps your pup look at the children in a different light. My one dog who is naturally very dominant with dogs and people, has growled at my husband before pretty threatening when she first had raw bones. While it is easier to explain to my husband what needs to be done it is harder for children. I think it is a great idea to have your son be the one to feed the pup. I would be careful with how much taking away of the bowl, etc cause you don't want it to turn into teasing/nagging the dog. I would say leave bones and high value treats for the crate- maybe you can even have the children give him the bone but I think you should be the one to take it away and just remove the situation from children and dog interaction is my advice.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I agree with everything said here (I also don't think I'd have him remove the bowl.... it could be seen as a taunting act by him. Just the fact that your son is the giver of the food is enough to drive the point home that he is higher in the pack.)
> ...


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## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

Sam375 said:


> ... I believe in positive training, but I think a combination of training techniques is probably more realistic, I don't think in every situation only one type of training works. If a puppy gets excited and nips, it needs to be corrected, if a puppy jumps up it needs to be corrected....If he is doing what he is suspose to be doing, that needs to be rewarded...


I agree with you here! As well as with Jan. You need to establish a pack and your dog has to respect your children, REGARDLESS.


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## DAJsMom (Oct 27, 2006)

Please keep in mind--ANY dog can bite. Even one that is normally easy-going and happy. For a dog, growling and biting are often self-defense. If the dog feels threatened in anyway, it may very well bite. 
My brother was bitten by the neighbor's nice, friendly dog. He was two years old at the time and was bitten in the face. He thought he was feeding the dog. The dog thought he was taking it's food. My brother will have those scars forever. Kids absolutely need to respect the dog at all times. This is hard for little kids. Adults need to work with the dog to make it as well-behaved and tolerant as possible, and supervise the kid-dog interactions. 
I think letting your child take away the dog's food is dangerous until you have worked with the dog extensively yourself to teach it that giving up it's food results in something even better. If you do not yet trust the dog you should not let the kids take away it's food or treats or you are asking for trouble in my opinion. I think you can work with the dog in a positive way to minimize the risk of a bite, it just takes some time and effort and some really good treats.


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## sweater32 (Dec 12, 2008)

I am very much in favor of positive reinforcement and even advocate it. However, owning rescue dogs all my life until Simba and Bailey gives me years of experience, and even though I am still learning, I do know, not all situations can be handle the same way. That would be categorizing dogs the same with no variance in personalities, breeding, temperaments, etc. Dog training should be fitted to the dog you have, there is no such thing as one size fits all when it comes to dog training. Even though I highly agree to use positive reinforcement, I also believe and use negative -reinforcement and that does not mean abuse, it can be as simple as shaking a can of coins when a dog keeps barking or when they pull on a leash to go one way and you stop and go the opposite way. I am telling the dog, no, we are not going your way, we are going mine. I believe in correcting behavior as Caesar does. He does not hit the dogs, treat them mean, usually he makes a hissing sound, snaps his fingers, blocks them with his leg and challenge them mentally as a pack leader would do. There have been times when I disagree with the way he handled a particular dog. There are situations when positive reinforcement is impractical because we live in a real world. The same as you cannot tell a child "if you are good in the store, I will buy you something", what happens the next time when you do not buy something.

This is my reason why I said a small child should never be alone with a dog.

My daughter, Amy had a Weinheimer, Champ, since he was 8 weeks old. When Champ turned five, Amy had a baby girl, Abbie. Champ became Abbie's protector. He would lie in front of her crib whenever she was sleeping and you could not budge him from her room. Wherever Abbie was, you would see Champ. If she crawled or walked out of the room, Champ would follow. She hugged Champ, laid on the floor with him, crawled over him, and he licked her face and wagged his tail. We reprimanded Abbie if she would start to do anything that was negative towards Champ for she did not know any better and had to learn too. The two of them were inseparable, but were never left alone together. When Abbie was 1 ½ years old; Amy, Amy's friend, Abbie and Champ were in the kitchen while Amy was preparing dinner. Champ, sitting with Abbie standing alongside of him were looking out the sliding glass doors. Amy was four feet away. . . _four feet_ and turned her back to get a pan. Abbie let out a blood-curling scream. Amy quickly turned to see Champ attacking Abbie in the face. When Amy screamed and lunged towards Champ, he let go. We do not know what provoke this, We tried to surmise, did she poke him in the eye, or this or that, we could guess until dooms day, but we will never know. Amy never saw Champ again, she called animal rescue while in the ER and told them to remove Champ from the house. Abbie has had several plastic surgeries and she is now 3 ½. Unbelievably, Abbie is not afraid of dogs and lights up every time she sees Simba and Bailey.

To keep someone with young children from adopting a puppy is wrong; a rescue dog is a different issue. When you deny adoption to young families where do you think they go to get a dog? A pet store that sells puppy mill dogs? On the other hand, possible a rescue center, in which they could end up with a dog, who becomes petrify and bites the child, and then what&#8230;. the family takes him right back to rescue. If I were a breeder I would interview the family with children in the same manner I would an adult home. How are you guaranteed the puppy will be well treated in an adult home? A fantastic interview, great references, instinct and you will not know what goes on behind closed doors. However, you can observe how the family acts with a puppy. Do they allow their _small_ children to pick the puppy up, attempt to hug , pull on the tail and ears or do they intervene and the puppy remains safe. Why would the puppy be better off in a non-small children home? I have 11 grandchildren. Denying a child a dog until 8 years of age is simple wrong. I apologize but that really rubbed me the wrong way.

Amy still has Tex, a german short hair, she cannot imagine her life or her children's without a dog. If a human hurt a child, you do not hate the entire human race because of it. I am done for I am rattling here and will stop now. :banplease:Below are pictures of Abbie.


age 2
1 1/2 the week it happened
two days ago


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

sweater 32- How horrible that must've been for the family.
That is my greatest fear. I couldn't even imagine, so glad she has no physical or emotional scars.

See I am trying to find the right balance, having my kids involved in the training in a safe manner. 
Like if the dog takes one of their toys and they go to get it from him. I want it to be a safe situation. 
So far it seems to be food, but of course I don't want it to progress to anything else.

I had my 4 year old make him come and sit in front of her for a treat.

I guess having them each take turns in feeding him and not taking the bowl away is a better way to move forward. I was also thinking maybe they should give him a little at a time, wonder how that would be ?

What is confusing is that the Hav info out there says good with children, but I guess that can be misleading since obviously if you have a dog that is good with children but yet feels dominant over them he'll still be dangerous .
It is a false sense of security when you have a "good with children" breed.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Sam375 said:


> This statement is so true, and there is a lot of info out there. I think you understand the need to read and then decide which makes the most sense. I admire your desire to do the best things for your dog and your family. The only thing that I think is holding you back with certain issues is your belief that dogs are trying to dominate us. There are sooo many great articles that refute this theory. I think that if you viewed your dog as simply wanting good things that it would make this so much easier. Hugs and wags Dave and Molly .


I am trying to take everything into account and I appreciate your support and appreciate your not judging me based on my 3 little kids. I am no expert just trying my hardest to have a safe happy family for everyone.
So, I know you do not agree with the cesar stlye. so, tell me what would you do based on your technique...
Your Pup is laying in a dog bed, your young child goes near him while he has a bone and the child gets very close to the dog, definately in biting distance and definately the hand is close to the bone/mouth. growl and a little snap.

Back off? Wait for a relax and then reward?[/QUOTE]

Is there something wrong with the site. ? this is the third time I have typed a response and have lost it. Anyway please read this article that I posted earlier in case you haven't . It is a case of training Harry to take and release and then giving the gaurded resource ie. bone back . If he knows he will get it back he won't guard it with such resolve. Here is the article http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/guarding-valued-objects


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> url]http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/guarding-valued-objects[/url]


That is a helpful article, but what about if you don't happen to have a treat?Like let's say it happens quickly, he guards something he shouldn't have ?


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

i don't know, I am lacking confidence with this and am fearful.
I am so scared of the kids now getting hurt.
Like i realize that he see my 1.5 yr old as something to play with, which is bad.
He ran around her and around her in the middle f the floor all excited like he does in the evening in the yard if I let him off his leash. He goes towards her play growling and play nipping for her hand. He seems to "love" her but now I see how dangerous this can become since he definately doesn't see her as beneath her. The whole time I was snapping my fingers am making my noise at him when he would get too close, and he would run away all excited and wound up. I didn't let it last and was protecting her the whole time. But that's the problem I feel like I have to protect her from the big bad Harry
I have been having my 6 &4 yr old do sit, stay, come with him. I also have been having them both feed him.

I guess I am just worried. I lack the confidence and hope today that this will all work out.
*How soon can I see results I wonder.?*
He just gets wild sometimes. Like when I walk him and we get to the area of the yard that he has been left off his leash to run and he gets crazy. Yanking on the lead, I make him sit and calm down before I let him off of it and then its like an explosion through the yard.

I feel like hiring a professional trainer but I am sure it would be costly and my dh probably wouldn't agree to the expense, thinking its silly...


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

DAJsMom said:


> Please keep in mind--ANY dog can bite. Even one that is normally easy-going and happy. For a dog, growling and biting are often self-defense. If the dog feels threatened in anyway, it may very well bite.
> My brother was bitten by the neighbor's nice, friendly dog. He was two years old at the time and was bitten in the face. He thought he was feeding the dog. The dog thought he was taking it's food. My brother will have those scars forever. Kids absolutely need to respect the dog at all times. This is hard for little kids. Adults need to work with the dog to make it as well-behaved and tolerant as possible, and supervise the kid-dog interactions.
> I think letting your child take away the dog's food is dangerous until you have worked with the dog extensively yourself to teach it that giving up it's food results in something even better. If you do not yet trust the dog you should not let the kids take away it's food or treats or you are asking for trouble in my opinion. I think you can work with the dog in a positive way to minimize the risk of a bite, it just takes some time and effort and some really good treats.


Well said Joelle


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

you have to teach "settle" when things get carried away. And as far as treats are concerned. Treats are just used to teach something. They are fazed out early once the behavior is learned .And occasionally used to reinforce when correct behavior is given . Since you are eager to read. here is another article about teaching "settle". http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/jazz-and-settle-down


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## sweater32 (Dec 12, 2008)

Getting Harry to settle is necessary. Using noise might be making him think you are playing with him or making him more stress and fearful. The first two commands we taught the boys, Simba and Bailey was sit and stay to help teach them to settle. They stayed in a pen at night when we were away. In the morning, they would jump up and down in the pen, barking etc. We would not let them out of the pen until they settled down. We would say "sit" and not open the door until they did. My DH and I were able to schedule our work so one of us was home during the week, this enable them to be out of the pen when the other one came home. They would jump, bark, and nip at our clothing when we came through the door. We would use our hand motion for them to sit and turn our back to them and say, "settle" and when they stop fussing, we would turn around and greet them. As soon as they acted up, we would immediately turn our back and do it all over again. When they finally remain settled we would give many hugs and belly rubs with a treat. They soon learned to settle very quickly. I highly recommend you attend puppy training for you will learn how to train him. They encourage the whole family attend for then everyone is on the same page. Humane Societies and 4 H clubs usually have free classes or a very reduce rate. I took Abbie to some of the classes and she is 3, she would watch very carefully what was said and shown by the trainers and got so excited when she did it and the boys did the command. It is a lot of fun to train. Hav's are very intelligent and want to please. I think Harry just needs direction and he will do fine. The sooner he learns the better it will be for everyone. Remember he is a puppy and like children needs to learn what is right and wrong. The longer you wait to train enables more time to learn bad habits. 

PS. Lookie what I found!!! :biggrin1:I did a search for your area and this was in KYW Newsradio I hope it is close to you! 


Posted: Sunday, 22 February 2009 6:59AM

SPCA Adds More Training Classes for Dogs


*by KYW's John Ostapkovich *
The Pennsylvania SPCA is offering expanded courses for man's best friend and man to help them get the most from their relationship.
In the hopes that man-likes-dog relationships are for life, the SPCA had already been offering basic puppy and dog obedience classes, says Nicole Larocco, director of animal behavior and training and one of the instructors:
"We used to only do puppy kindergarten and adult basic class, which is just manners for dogs, you know, sit, down, stay, come-when-they-are-called, walking on leash without ripping their owners arm out of their socket. We are expanding to some more advanced training, including the Canine Good Citizen Program."
It's a two-step program that certifies a dog's good manners at home and in the community, and is a step toward Registered Therapy Dog certification. Larocco says some of the courses are free to pit bull and pit bull mixes as part of the SPCA's efforts to rehabilitate the breed's image.
For more information on the SPCA's dog training programs, call *215-426-6304, x259 *or email [email protected].


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## DAJsMom (Oct 27, 2006)

Sam375 said:


> i don't know, I am lacking confidence with this and am fearful.
> I am so scared of the kids now getting hurt.
> Like i realize that he see my 1.5 yr old as something to play with, which is bad.
> He ran around her and around her in the middle f the floor all excited like he does in the evening in the yard if I let him off his leash. He goes towards her play growling and play nipping for her hand. He seems to "love" her but now I see how dangerous this can become since he definately doesn't see her as beneath her. The whole time I was snapping my fingers am making my noise at him when he would get too close, and he would run away all excited and wound up. I didn't let it last and was protecting her the whole time. But that's the problem I feel like I have to protect her from the big bad Harry
> .


From what you describe, Harry is acting like an excited puppy. The problem is that a small child is so close to their level and can get nipped or scratched so easily. I don't see it as a dominance thing. Harry just needs to learn manners. From all of your comments, he just needs time spent in training, and supervision until he and the kids can safely interact. This isn't a problem with the breed or with Harry. It would be true of most any puppy or new dog. See if you can find a book or a trainer that uses positive methods. Read Dave's articles. Spend time working with Harry yourself and he will quickly learn how things work and what gets him rewards.
We have a 1.5 year old that comes over fairly often. The dogs can reach up and lick her in the face without having to jump. She gets overwhelmed just with their normal level of excitement. She could easily be knocked down or hurt by dog behavior that would not even bother an adult or older child. We watch closely and limit the interaction if it is not comfortable for her or the dogs. Little kids move suddenly and add to the excitement without meaning to as well. A small child is not yet capable of "reading" the dog's behavior accurately and understanding how to properly respond to the dog's signals and behavior. Even my older kids (7,11,13) are still learning what the dogs' signals are and how to properly respond. A puppy is full of energy and excitement and hasn't yet learned many limits. Supervising and training dogs and kids is work, but it's important.


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