# skirmish



## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Shama and I had a scary moment at Intermediate Obedience class two nights ago. I will describe it to you as it seemed to me, and I would be interested in receiving your helpful comments . . . Only three dogs (a golden retriever, an Australian shepherd, and Shama) were present. It was the end of the night, and we were doing recalls. While one dog is being called, the other two dogs are sit-staying off to the side next to their owners on leash. When the shepherd (I'll call him Rex) was doing his second recall, Shama broke her stay and tried to run after him. I had her on the leash, of course, so she probably didn't even get a foot away from me. The path of the recall was probably 15 feet away. Her movement distracted Rex from his recall, however, and he came after Shama. I had been told that dogs can feel trapped when meeting other dogs on a leash, and Rex was dragging his leash so had an advantage over a leashed Shama, so I dropped her leash so she'd have an easier time getting away. It all happened so fast that I couldn't see exactly what was happening. It was a blur of big black dog (Rex) and little black and white dog (Shama) whirling around. I don't recall hearing Rex vocalizing, but Shama was making a lot of noise, including high pitched squeals I'd never heard. (It was awful!) I didn't reach in for Shama because I probably feared on some level that I'd be bit. Eventually (I don't know how many seconds had passed, but probably not too many), the other owner (a teenager) and the instructor got control of Rex, and I grabbed Shama's leash. I called her to me while backing up (my instructor calls this a "come for") but she was still lunging and barking at Rex (who by now had been pulled away from the scene). She eventually came to me and sat for a treat. Then my former instructor (who is also in the class but who had put her dogs away for the night) came over and said we should put Shama on the table. I thought she, like me, was trying to just get Shama back into training mode, as we'd been doing a lot of "stand for exam" lately. As she was running her hands all over Shama, though, she said, "No punctures." (I was thinking, what?! Punctures?!) We determined Shama's side was a little wet from slobber but that she wasn't cut at all. My former instructor said she thought the shepherd (who is actually being used to herd cattle on a farm) was just trying to subdue/control Shama and that she wasn't vocalizing or biting. She thought she was pawing and mouthing. (She commented on Shama's thick coat offering a layer of protection against Rex's teeth, and she also said it might have been a worse situation had Shama broken free and taken off running, because that would have upped the ante/prey drive of the shepherd). I didn't want Shama to think that I had been afraid at all (even though I had been!) so we just went over and got a drink of water from Shama's bowl like we always do during/after class, and we eventually went home (class had ended, of course). At home, she was her usual self, attacking her new tiny fluffy bunny (pictured below) and playing with her favorite orange squeaky ball. It will be interesting to see if she acts any differently when we go to the training center (on Monday for agility then Thursday for her next Intermediate Obedience class) and when she next sees Rex. When I got home, I told my DH that she had been attacked, but then I decided that might be too strong a word. I think it's more that she was in a skirmish. What do you think? Did I handle the situation OK? What might I do differently in the future? I guess I'm mostly wondering if I should have scooped her up off the floor even at the risk of personal injury. (My DH doesn't think I would have succeeded at scooping her up out of the whirlwind of dog skirmish as I have slow reflexives and am not that coordinated . . .) I was really scared.

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## Jojofergy (Jun 27, 2016)

Wow! That is scary having smaller dogs that can get hurt so much easier definitely makes things harder I'm wondering what's the best way to handle a situation like that too so will be following 
Glad she wasn't hurt! 


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

How terrifying! I will be watching to see what folks who know more than I do advise...

I'm so glad that she is apparently all right!


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

That would be so scary but I'm not the one to offer advice. I'm just glad Shama wasn't hurt. She sure is adorable. I had a large dog charge at Willow when we were camping once. It was off leash (illegally) and Willow was on a leash. I did scoop her up when that happened. It was an instinctual reaction on my part. The other dog did not look the least bit friendly. Of course the owners said their dog was just playing. Yeah, sure.


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## Nepa (Nov 8, 2016)

I would have been scared too. Happy no one got hurt!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I would never, EVER have Shama in the ring with that dog loose again, no matter what the circumstances. IMO that WAS an "attack". Even if the GSD had no intention of killing Shama, he was certainly not acting in a playful manner. And we have another forum member (she doesn't post much here anymore) whose Havanese got grabbed by a larger dog. He didn't have any bite marks either, and sustained life-threatening internal injuries from the crush/bruising of his rib cage. Contact between large dog and our little ones can be very damaging wither without intent.

IMO, the fact that the other dog was dragging a leash (even though it was helpful in pulling him off Shama) was a sign that this is NOT a dog trained to the level that he can be trusted to be loose in the ring with another dog. I think you are very lucky that she survived. I'm sorry that this happened to both of you, and I'm glad to hear that she bounced back pretty fast. But you could be less lucky the next time. 

My dogs are always crated outside the ring unless it's their turn.


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## Lisa T. (Feb 5, 2015)

Thank goodness Shama is ok.


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

So sorry this happened to you and Shama. So far I have had one episode while walking Molly in our neighborhood. An unleased "doodle" type large dog came charging out of it's yard. I was expecting it to be friendly but molly got scared and they both started growling and it was trying to get at Molly. I scooped her up(even though that might be the wrong thing to do) and made my way home. These things happen so fast and are really scary, especially with little ones like we have.


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## Ollie"s Mom (May 23, 2014)

Oh so very scary I am glad physically Shama is ok. I totally agree with Karen and the one other thing my instinct tells me is that I would have scooped Shama up as soon as that Shepherd was headed my way, before it had the opportunity to get into a skirmish with Shama. I would not have let Shama go. I would have been of the belief the toe of my boot would be more effective ( if necessary) than Shama's ability to run away. Once your dog is loose you have absolutely no control and a small dog always loses. In your arms you can be her defense. There is less chance of a dog attacking you than Shama and I am serious when I say if a dog attacked me I would yell, kick do whatever to get it to go away.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

I was walking Tucker around the neighborhood one day by a house that had a man in the driveway working on something. I didn't notice that their front door was open and also didn't realize that they had a large dog. All of a sudden out of the corner of my eye I saw a blur moving fast with head down, straight for Tucker! I grabbed Tucker up and turned to the side. The dog stopped fast when he realized that the small furry tidbit was in the arms of a full sized lady. The man just yelled at his kid in the house to "get the dog." Never even apologized! Ticks me off, still.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ollie"s Mom said:


> Oh so very scary I am glad physically Shama is ok. I totally agree with Karen and the one other thing my instinct tells me is that I would have scooped Shama up as soon as that Shepherd was headed my way, before it had the opportunity to get into a skirmish with Shama. I would not have let Shama go. I would have been of the belief the toe of my boot would be more effective ( if necessary) than Shama's ability to run away. Once your dog is loose you have absolutely no control and a small dog always loses. In your arms you can be her defense. There is less chance of a dog attacking you than Shama and I am serious when I say if a dog attacked me I would yell, kick do whatever to get it to go away.


If she had time, I agree with you. i will always pick my dogs up to get them out of harm's way. In this instance, though, it sounds like she didn't have time to pick Shama up, in which case, her response was absolutely appropriate. Holding the leash once a larger dog is already on top of yours won't help, and if it gets tangled around the other dog, even a well-meaning dog could panic and snap. Worse, once the dogs are engaged, you stand a real chance of being bitten yourself.

I WOULDN'T have been above taking a kick at the big dog, though.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Sheri said:


> I was walking Tucker around the neighborhood one day by a house that had a man in the driveway working on something. I didn't notice that their front door was open and also didn't realize that they had a large dog. All of a sudden out of the corner of my eye I saw a blur moving fast with head down, straight for Tucker! I grabbed Tucker up and turned to the side. The dog stopped fast when he realized that the small furry tidbit was in the arms of a full sized lady. The man just yelled at his kid in the house to "get the dog." Never even apologized! Ticks me off, still.


Our neighbors, who share our driveway, have a dog who is fine with people, but very dog-aggressive. I've saved one of mine from attack a couple of times by picking them up when he has charged. But I know that dog is people safe. Unfortunately, I probably WOULD instinctively grab my dog in a bad situation and get my face bitten off!


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

I just wanted to say that I did not "Like" the original post because it was about Shama being attacked BUT I absolutely like all the adorable photos of Shama!


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## boomana (Jul 9, 2015)

Glad she's okay. That sounds terrifying.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Thank you for all your kind words and advice. Sounds like in the future, if I have a quick enough reflex and the wherewithal to scoop her up, it would be OK to scoop her up if I sense real danger. I will take your advice, Karen, and not ever let her be out if Rex is free. Sorry to hear about the scary incidents with Willow, Molly, and Tucker. Our poor little babies!


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## Layla's Mom (Feb 1, 2016)

So sorry to hear about your terrifying incident! Also, so glad Shama or you didn't get hurt! Poor little girl, she sounds like such a Trooper! I totally agree with the others - scoop your dog up if any dog is rushing or charging over to you, if you have time. Sounds like you did the best you could under the circumstances, by letting go of her leash and thankfully, neither of you were hurt. Obedience classes are a conundrum for me with a little dog. I don't think any of the exercises, except sit/down stays, should be done as a group off leash(if they are, and i havent ran into it yet, I wouldn't participate). I still won't leave the ring during the sit/down stays, to do outa site stays, for fear of this exact thing happening to Layla. Not sure when I'll trust or get past this, but we're not to that level of Obedience yet anyways. Like Karen, I crate Layla if it's not our turn in the ring. Recently, I purchased the Sherpa carrier and I use that at shows/classes to crate her and carry her in/out of the building in it. There's so much congestion getting in and out of the facilities, I feel safer knowing she's in a carrier. Also, I will cover her carrier with a blanket and if I can find something to put it up off the ground (on a table or something steady) so other dogs can't sniff around her or worse...and I never leave her there unattended. Some of you might think this is overkill, but with all the love and training I've put into this little dog, I'd rather be overly cautious, then sorry! 

By the way, Shamas pictures are beautiful!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Layla's Mom said:


> So sorry to hear about your terrifying incident! Also, so glad Shama or you didn't get hurt! Poor little girl, she sounds like such a Trooper! I totally agree with the others - scoop your dog up if any dog is rushing or charging over to you, if you have time. Sounds like you did the best you could under the circumstances, by letting go of her leash and thankfully, neither of you were hurt. Obedience classes are a conundrum for me with a little dog. I don't think any of the exercises, except sit/down stays, should be done as a group off leash(if they are, and i havent ran into it yet, I wouldn't participate). I still won't leave the ring during the sit/down stays, to do outa site stays, for fear of this exact thing happening to Layla. Not sure when I'll trust or get past this, but we're not to that level of Obedience yet anyways. Like Karen, I crate Layla if it's not our turn in the ring. Recently, I purchased the Sherpa carrier and I use that at shows/classes to crate her and carry her in/out of the building in it. There's so much congestion getting in and out of the facilities, I feel safer knowing she's in a carrier. Also, I will cover her carrier with a blanket and if I can find something to put it up off the ground (on a table or something steady) so other dogs can't sniff around her or worse...and I never leave her there unattended. Some of you might think this is overkill, but with all the love and training I've put into this little dog, I'd rather be overly cautious, then sorry!
> 
> By the way, Shamas pictures are beautiful!


I don't use a Sherpa... I have soft folding crates I use for trials/training, and I have a small blanket to cover the front. (the sides have roll-down covers for the windows) I bring them in and set them up first, then I bring in each dog separately. Usually I walk them in, but if it is crowded or if there is a dog I'm concerned about, I pick them up and carry them. It sounds like a lot of work, but like you, keeping my dogs safe is my top priority.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Thanks for your posts. I wish there were enough owners of small breed dogs interested in obedience to have classes without large dogs present . . . At our Kennel Club, there are crates at both ends of the room, so I can plunk Shama into a little crate whenever I need to. She's getting better about waiting patiently for her turn. (I use the crates at agility class much more than at obedience class.) When she's lying patiently in the crate, I click/treat at the back of the crate to reward her good behavior.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

I have held off commenting on this thread because I have a different take on this than others who have posted and I want to find the right words so I am not misunderstood.

A couple of years ago while taking Ricky for a walk in our neighborhood, an elderly neighbor was walking her large dog on the other side of the street. The dog broke loose from her grip and was running headlong toward us from across the street. I had time to react and pick Ricky up but the dog was by then on top of us. He wasn't interested in me but was jumping up trying to get to Ricky. I kept spinning trying to keep my back toward him and Ricky, hugged to my chest, away from him and yelling, but always turning my head to keep an eye on the attacker. The other dog soon lost interest and ran back across the street but I was furious. Honestly, I yelled a couple of expletives at the dog and its owner. 

I have had a few other incidences of meeting dogs on a walk where there was barking and snarling. I will NEVER drop the leash when I think Ricky might be attacked! I want Ricky under my control at all times! If I don't have time to pick him up, I will take up all slack in the leash so he is glued to me. I put my hand that is holding the leash behind my back and since there is no slack Ricky is behind my legs. I face the dog who is attacking, yell but NEVER kick, that only excites the dog further and invites a bite on the leg. I use my free hand to wave in the air and distract the other dog. I keep spinning with Ricky in back of me so that I am always facing the dog and I am between the dog and Ricky. Every time, help (the other owner) comes to the rescue and we proceed quickly on our way.

I do not agree with the way the trainer is teaching recall in the incident described. 
- Recall in a group setting should not be taught until all the participants have a good command of sit/stay, both on and off leash.
- Recall in a group setting should not be taught with the other participants 90 degrees to the side. It should be taught with all participants siting in a straight line facing the same direction. That way, if one dog is being recalled by their handler, the other dogs are behind them as they proceed, not to their side. If one of the dogs behind breaks their stay, it is more likely to go unnoticed and not be a distraction for the dog being recalled.
- When a dog is being recalled, the leash should be off. In fact, if the other dogs who are not participating cannot maintain a sit/stay with their leash off, they are not ready for the group recall training exercise.
- Anytime there are children or teenager handlers, in a training class or anywhere, I am particularly cautious and avoid them! I also feel the same way about an adult who appears to have a dog that is so big they may not be able to control them. For example, I forbid Momi to take Bowowzer, our muscular 75 pound Lab grand dog for a walk. He is not vicious or reactive but he is difficult for me to control when he wants to go one direction and I the other! We're working on his heeling command.

With regards to Shama, we are happy that she was not hurt. Ricky loves Shama and keeps a picture of her in his crate (well truth be told a picture of Shama and 20 other female Havadoggies here on HF, he is Cuban and a loverboy! Mr. Boom Boom!). Mama, please understand that we want to keep you and Shama safe and take my comments in that vein.

When in a training class neither the handler or the dog should take time out and lose concentration at any time. Even though it is not your turn to perform an exercise, you are BOTH still in training! Always be aware of what your dog is doing. Keep frequent "eyes on" and watch body language. If your dog is staring too intently at another dog, whether the one performing or one just waiting, demand/insist that they focus back on you. Obviously, Shama was paying too much attention to Rex to break her sit/stay. Perhaps Mama was paying too much attention to Rex to allow Shama to break her sit/stay. Maybe Shama just wanted to go over to play with Rex (this is a common problem with Ricky) but training time is NOT play time. Dogs should NEVER be allowed to play together at anytime in a training class or even after the class. When in training the other dogs are serious students just like them and should NOT be considered playmates. After training class is over, handler and their dog should play together independently.

I DO NOT want to train with dogs of the same size. I want and welcome the opportunity to train with dogs of all sizes and breeds like you would meet in a competition or real world. In Ricky's training classes, he has worked with a 120 pound Sheepdog, German Shepherds, Aussies, Dobermans, Chihuahuas, and yes Pit Bulls. These are all advanced student dogs with advanced handlers and very experienced trainers who are watching each and all dog's body language intently throughout the class. I also watch all dogs intently, looking for signs of trouble, but particularly Ricky. Now we can do a sit/stay with a group of dogs off leash in a straight about 6 feet from each other while the handlers walk as a group about 50 feet away and then recall their dogs individually. I demand/insist that Ricky watch ME during this entire exercise, waiting/watching intently for my command to come, and not look around at the Sheepdog on one side of him and the Aussie on the other.

Let me give you an example of some training I just did at home this morning. As I have said many times, Ricky is a voracious eater. Food is a prime motivator for him. This morning, I put him in a sit/stay and placed his food bowl 3 feet in front of him. I then went about my business in the room although keeping a close eye on him. I was off to the side so he had to turn his head to watch me. He did not take his eyes off me or budge one inch for 3 solid minutes waiting for my release command to eat and never looked at his food bowl once! :whoo: I then released him and he was on that food bowl like dirt on pigs.

Shama needs more work with her sit/stays. There are many, many games you can devise at home, several times a day to work on this command. Rex and his handler need more work on their recall. You see, Rex thinks that Shama is more interesting than his handler. For a moment, Shama thought that Rex was more interesting than Mama. I work on being the most interesting thing in the world to Ricky. What is that beer commercial?, the most interesting man in the world. (Right now I am getting serious competition from the Cottontail rabbit who lives in our backyard.) Our trainer taught our class that concept a couple of years ago and used ME as an example! He said, "Popi, Ricky just told you that you are boring compared to that cute Cocker Spaniel next to him he wants to play with." It was embarrassing, but I got over it, and learned from it. There are always ways for me to improve MY performance in training with Ricky. Just about always, mistakes in competition or training are my fault and not Ricky's and it becomes a learning experience for me!

So, I think there is much to be learned from your experience and I thank you for letting me voice my opinion. Fortunately Shama wasn't hurt and I would not let this incident deter you from making corrections to your training techniques, work with Shama to be more consistent and dependable, and perhaps look for a different training instructor, but by no means give up on obedience training classes. Often times dogs get over these incidents faster than peoples do!

I, too, liked the pictures of Shama in your post so I'm giving you a LIKE here.

Ricky's Popi


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Thank you, Ricky's Popi, for your thorough post. I knew I would get some good feedback from you. I agree that Shama and I need more work on her sit/stays. I live in a large community by Minnesota standards (50,000 people), but there are not a lot of training options. I chose this facility because they are the kennel club affiliated with the AKC, so it seems like they should know their business, and because it's a roomy facility. I like to go to classes because it gives us the opportunity to be around a variety of dogs in a "safe" environment. I will be more diligent about keeping Shama's attention on me, and I will continue to work on being the most fun attraction in the room for Shama (which is a big challenge for me). I'm sure that I was watching Rex run instead of watching Shama's sit/stay. Sigh. I never would have imagined training my clever little Havanese would be so hard. We'll keep on working though. Thanks again, Ricky's Popi, and all my other forum friends!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ShamaMama said:


> Thanks for your posts. I wish there were enough owners of small breed dogs interested in obedience to have classes without large dogs present . . . At our Kennel Club, there are crates at both ends of the room, so I can plunk Shama into a little crate whenever I need to. She's getting better about waiting patiently for her turn. (I use the crates at agility class much more than at obedience class.) When she's lying patiently in the crate, I click/treat at the back of the crate to reward her good behavior.


I think it's important to protect our little dogs at all time, but it is also important for them to learn to relax and be able to work around big dogs. otherwise, when they go to their first competition, they will be totally overwhelmed. So, I wouldn't want to be in a small dog-only class situation, but I do make sure that my dog learns positive things from the experience and doesn't get scared... Even if it means that I have to advocate strongly for my dog at times, and if necessary, sit out an exercise that I think puts them at risk.


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## Layla's Mom (Feb 1, 2016)

krandall said:


> I think it's important to protect our little dogs at all time, but it is also important for them to learn to relax and be able to work around big dogs. otherwise, when they go to their first competition, they will be totally overwhelmed. So, I wouldn't want to be in a small dog-only class situation, but I do make sure that my dog learns positive things from the experience and doesn't get scared... Even if it means that I have to advocate strongly for my dog at times, and if necessary, sit out an exercise that I think puts them at risk.


Well said!!!


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## Layla's Mom (Feb 1, 2016)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I have held off commenting on this thread because I have a different take on this than others who have posted and I want to find the right words so I am not misunderstood.
> 
> A couple of years ago while taking Ricky for a walk in our neighborhood, an elderly neighbor was walking her large dog on the other side of the street. The dog broke loose from her grip and was running headlong toward us from across the street. I had time to react and pick Ricky up but the dog was by then on top of us. He wasn't interested in me but was jumping up trying to get to Ricky. I kept spinning trying to keep my back toward him and Ricky, hugged to my chest, away from him and yelling, but always turning my head to keep an eye on the attacker. The other dog soon lost interest and ran back across the street but I was furious. Honestly, I yelled a couple of expletives at the dog and its owner.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you say here, Ricky's Popi and you definitely have some very good advice for Shama's Mama. What I'm wondering is, with due respect, why are these instructors doing recalls with a class full of dogs? To me it's a recipe for disaster, no matter what level training of the dogs or handlers or how closely they're watching their dog! I have never been to a class or seminar where there is group recalls. Every instructor I've had saves the recalls for the individual exercises/time. The stays are a different story, but it baffles me that this is being done when Obedience competition doesn't have any of the exercises as a group, except for the stays (and I hear they might be doing away with them for this very reason). The only way I can rationalize what they're doing is, they are trying to create a distraction or proofing for the dogs. If that's the case, there are many other ways to provide distractions. I don't know, it just seems like a train wreck waiting to happen. I would be very leery if one of my instructors asked for this.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Layla's Mom said:


> I agree with everything you say here, Ricky's Popi and you definitely have some very good advice for Shama's Mama. What I'm wondering is, with due respect, why are these instructors doing recalls with a class full of dogs? To me it's a recipe for disaster, no matter what level training of the dogs or handlers or how closely they're watching their dog! I have never been to a class or seminar where there is group recalls. Every instructor I've had saves the recalls for the individual exercises/time. The stays are a different story, but it baffles me that this is being done when Obedience competition doesn't have any of the exercises as a group, except for the stays (and I hear they might be doing away with them for this very reason). The only way I can rationalize what they're doing is, they are trying to create a distraction or proofing for the dogs. If that's the case, there are many other ways to provide distractions. I don't know, it just seems like a train wreck waiting to happen. I would be very leery if one of my instructors asked for this.


I agree. I agree with almost everything Popi posted. But I think group recalls are a TERRIBLE idea. Prey drive is simply too strong in some individuals and some breeds. To have a line of loose dogs in sit-stays, without handlers attached, and call a single dog is asking for another dog to go into prey drive and chase/grab that dog. Especially if the dog moving is small and hairy.

I would never, EVER do a group exercise like this for a couple of reasons. First, of course is the safety concern. Second, absolutely the ONLY time in competition obedience that you leave your dog in a group is during stays. And the dog is NEVER to move from that line up. The handler returns to the dog. ALWAYS. I would never even want to give my dog the idea that there MIGHT be another alternative other than "Stay where I put you." In group stays. They are dangerous enough as designed.

We practice individual recalls from a group with our three, but they all know each other intimately, and we call them, one at a time, from Dave to me and back. It is a very different "picture" than group stays. Even with my three, I would never leave them set up, as in groups, and call one out of line. It's not anything they would ever need in real life, and it's counter productive in terms of competition obedience training. And it's bad training, because you have absolutely NO way to influence the outcome if things go badly, if there is no handler "handling" the other dogs.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Layla's Mom said:


> why are these instructors doing recalls with a class full of dogs? To me it's a recipe for disaster, no matter what level training of the dogs or handlers or how closely they're watching their dog!





krandall said:


> But I think group recalls are a TERRIBLE idea. Prey drive is simply too strong in some individuals and some breeds.


You are both correct, it is a risky training exercise. In my case it was a super advanced class with dogs that had been proofed. Each owner should weigh the risks of such an exercise.

With regards to ShamaMama experience, it was in reality a group recall but set up to invite failure. As you would say, all group recalls are set up for failure and you are probably right.

Regardless, thank you for your feedback, you raise good points worth pondering.

Ricky's Popi


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> You are both correct, it is a risky training exercise. In my case it was a super advanced class with dogs that had been proofed. Each owner should weigh the risks of such an exercise.
> 
> With regards to ShamaMama experience, it was in reality a group recall but set up to invite failure. As you would say, all group recalls are set up for failure and you are probably right.
> 
> ...


Kodi is in a Utility level class, which is the highest level of obedience. I still would't do it, nor would our trainer suggest it. But you are completely right that what happened in Shama's class was predicable, and the trainer never should have been doing this with the class.


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## Chi-Chi's Mom (Dec 10, 2015)

Wow, I'm so sorry this happened to Shama. But grateful that ShamaMama shared the experience that opened up this exchange. A lot of valuable information.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

When events like this happen , the bottom line is , what can we learn from it. It doesn't always help to criticise individuals or training methods when we weren't there. Trainers and training fascilities may have different protocals for the methods they use. But to say the trainer or his methods were dangerous is not nescessarily true. Many safe professional trainers teach obedience recall excercises in a group setting. Options could include practicing recalls in parallel or in a circle, either on shorter leashes or more spread out. If dogs are newcomers and working in a tight space or on a long line, you would typically want the dogs to be called AWAY from the other members on the sidelines. The idea would be to separate the owner from as much distraction as possible, in order to minimize the risk of a dog running off course or straight past them. Some trainers do " wandering" recalls where the dogs roam, on long lines, in an open area. This allows for more real life set ups of calling a dog who is sniffing a tree, for example. Any dog that is likely to be out of control should first be trained privately, to be under enough control, for a group class. ". Some trainers have distance increased very gradually, based on the dogs' level of success. It can be done on leash at first, then with a long line. 
To paraphrase a 20 year obedience trainer ...Between 90-99% of the benefits of an obedience class, if handled well, revolves around systematically desensitizing dogs to the presence of others and to movement. If handled well it’s seamless – owners and dogs never know it’s happening. 
And to get an outside view from someone those of you in dog sports will know , I asked her about whether it was ok for trainers to teach recall in a group setting, here is her reply ..."yes, I think you have to teach a recall - that’s pretty fundamental. And the other dogs on the side should be doing mat work or some other such behavior; not watching or amping up 
Denise Fenzi 

So it is the trainers responsibility to provide a safe environment above all. And my advise to you Shama's mom, is if you weren't sure what to do , don't feel bad. Many of us would be in the same boat. As far as advice on whether to drop the leash or pick Shama up or not, I would say pick her up to be my choice. There is always a risk of escalating things by doing this though. If you do pick her up ,hold firmly with two hands. Don't be shocked if she were to bite you in the furry. Keep your balance and I'll leave it there. Sometimes I might drop my dog's leash if you feel another dog is going to get tangled with yours. That can be BAD NEWS I do recommend talking more to your trainer about what happened in order to avoid another similar event. Koodos to the other trainer for inspecting for injuries for you. Dogs can bite five times per second, and can happen so fast you don't even see it. Happy training.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I certainly wasn't suggesting that Shama's owner did anything wrong, and I hope she knows that. We weren't there, and these things can happen in the blink of an eye. Yes, I'd pick up my small dog if I could, but that MIGHT not be safe for the human, and each person has to make a split second judgement call. Hind sight is always 20/20. 

This was not a recall on leash or on a long line, from what was described. The dog was simply trailing the leash. No one was in control, and the path of the dog on recall was only 15 ft from the dogs in line. Should Shama have broken her stay? Of course not, but if the facts were as presented, she never moved even an arm's length from her handler. IMO, for the other dog to go after her, he was not well enough trained to be doing that exercise off leash with other dogs in the ring. And if the trainer isn't making those judgement calls, Shama's handler has to make them herself. I wouldn't have my Havanese in the ring with that GSD off leash for a pretty long time and a LOT of proof that the dog has learned to recall straight to his owner over that distance without heading for the dogs on the side line.

I know Denise's work and training style quite well. I have worked with her personally, taken on line courses with her and talk with her frequently on line. I am QUITE sure that she would not suggest that this was a good situation. And I still stay the your first priority needs to be your dog's safety. Incidents can happen out of the blue, but then you have to make sure there is no chance for it to happen again.


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

This reminds me of the internet pop up that told me Ozzie Osborne once wrestled his ****z-tsu from the mouth of a coyote. Of course, instinct is to come between our dog and another dog. I think our families would appreciate our not doing this. I loved the pictures of your sweet girl and found this thread very helpful.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yeah Karen thats not the way I read it . And it wasn't a GSD . The thing is we weren't there and we shouldn't try to read between the lines. Thats why i asked Denise a general question .


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> yeah Karen thats not the way I read it . And it wasn't a GSD . The thing is we weren't there and we shouldn't try to read between the lines. Thats why i asked Denise a general question .


Sorry. I've never seen an Aussie called just a "shepherd". My mistake. But the breed doesn't really matter. It changes nothing other than the amount of hair involved. It was a bigger dog chasing a little dog.

And I love Denise... Both as a person and as a trainer. But when you ask a general question and then respond to a specific situation, no matter who they are, or how good a trainer they are, the answer isn't always exactly what the person would say if they knew the details. I assume, if Shama's owner posted (in pretty good detail) here, she was looking for comments other than "oh you poor thing". I think there are some very good, worth-while thoughts in this thread, and I trust that she is intelligent enough to sort through them and take away what makes sense for her, in her specific situation. Having worked with Denise, I know she rarely has more than one dog in the ring at a time when teaching, and if she does, they are not off leash. OTOH, she does the same thing we do, and almost all training IS done off leash. Just in a safe environment until the dogs prove that they are ready for a more challenging setting.

I don't think anyone was suggesting that dogs not be taught a proper recall. I happen to think it is one of THE most important things for a dog to learn. But I also think it is important to keep all the dogs in the class safe, both emotionally and physically. And I'm not necessarily faulting the instructor(s) either. Things can happen in a split second when animals are concerned, and the instructor can't always see everything that is going on at once. I've seen some potential train wrecks in pet classes, because the owners don't know how to "read" their dogs, and overlook "hard stares". Could the instructor predict that Shama would move toward the other dog? Who knows? We weren't there, and don't know the make-up of the class, their level of experience, the dogs' level of training, etc. Let's face it, there was a dog/dog attack at the NOC last year during stays... Between two OTCH level dogs. That is exactly why, especially in the case of our fluffy, small breed dogs, a lot of the responsibility needs to fall on our own shoulders to make thoughtful decisions in terms of safety. And I, personally, wouldn't have my dog that was at the learning-recalls stage, and also did not have a reliable stay at side in the ring with a larger dog (or any dog really) in an off-leash exercise. It's SO easy to work around this sort of situation, and so difficult to undo damage potentially done, both emotionally and physically.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Karen, I was simply trying to address comments that were like this "But I think group recalls are a TERRIBLE idea." This is done in many training fascilities with very few problems. including Denise's thats why i asked her to comment, I heard a lot of criticism for an event that no one except Shamas mom witnesses and even she didn't blame anyone.


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## Layla's Mom (Feb 1, 2016)

Ok, I sat up last night staring at my iPad trying to respond, with the right words to Daves response to my and Karen's comments on this issue. Well I'm just gonna comment and let whomever is offended be offended! 

First, written words tend to perpetuate situations and cause many unintended feelings and misunderstandings. I feel like Karen and myself are being attacked here for just providing a point of view from a different perspective. We both train "regularly" in obedience and "know" the protocols that are generally followed to ensure a safe, successful environment for all participating. With that perspective (which appears to be different than yours, Dave. No insult intended but you seem to be specialized in behavior consultation and Karen and myself, competition. This again, is my INFERENCE from my time on the forum, I certainly don't know you.) we both felt the situation was less than ideal for the safety of ALL the dogs in Shamas class. I simply stated a question in that first post, adding "with due respect" so this very thing would not happen. My bad! I shoulda let sleeping dogs lie, but the thought of Shama being snatched up by the Aussie was haunting me. I looked at Shamas Moms post a couple times and assessed "what she was describing" and it dawned on me why the heck were they doing GROUP recalls in the first place. I really don't care if Denise Fenzi, Janice Gunn, Bridgette Carlson or any of the top obedience trainers say it was ok to be doin GROUP recalls, in my book it was NOT ok and that's just my opinion. Now in a situation like Ricky's Popi described he trains in, that would probably be an environment for relatively safe recalls. Everyone needs to assess their own tolerance for what is safe. This was not as much a critiisicism of Shamas Moms training facility or instructor as it was to point out what I thought would have made their session end on a much more positive note. Now everyone can take what they want from my and Karen's advice, but we weren't intending to insult anyone!

To Shamas Mom-I know you are probably mortified at how this has escalated, but I want you to know I certainly wasn't intending to insult you or your dog or your trainer! I will bet when you go back to class this week your instructor will have made all the necessary corrections to how she/he runs their class and please post back with an update on how Shama does this week, if you're comfortable doing that. We are ALL emotionally invested in your and Shamas success now! I want people to post ANY questions and experiences here, that is what this forum is about :smile2:


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## Layla's Mom (Feb 1, 2016)

davetgabby said:


> Karen, I was simply trying to address comments that were like this "But I think group recalls are a TERRIBLE idea." This is done in many training fascilities with very few problems. including Denise's thats why i asked her to comment, I heard a lot of criticism for an event that no one except Shamas mom witnesses and even she didn't blame anyone.


There are problems and that is why the AKC is considering eliminating the group stays altogether! What Karen referred to at the NOC happens all too often!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

thanks Christine for that. I don't mean to criticize any ones' ideas or beliefs. I simply was trying to defend someone who seemed to be attacked when all the facts aren't known. It is my opinion that in doing so you can also drag down a type of training that is healthy and benefital. I certainly respect everyone to have things they are not comfortable with. I don't believe we have the right to make judgement on a case without knowing all the circumstances. I certainly will offer other general comments on a training principle like getting an expert to comment in general terms like group recalls. I certainly would not expect anyone who wasn't there to comment any more than a general comment. This is why trainers are reluctant to comment on training issues simply by someone's comments. And when a valid training excercise is criticized , I like to offer the other side of the story. It is everyone's right to find what's safe for them. I will stick up for trainers and methods that I believe are valid.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> Karen, I was simply trying to address comments that were like this "But I think group recalls are a TERRIBLE idea." This is done in many training fascilities with very few problems. including Denise's thats why i asked her to comment, I heard a lot of criticism for an event that no one except Shamas mom witnesses and even she didn't blame anyone.


Denise doesn't have a training facility (other than her back yard) and doesn't give group lessons.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

so are you saying she's not qualified to give the answer she gave?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> so are you saying she's not qualified to give the answer she gave?


Dave, now you are being silly. You corrected me on whether the dog was a GSD or an Aussie. I admitted my mistake. You are talking about someone I know quite well, and saying that she has a facility. Which she does't.

She is one of the most qualified dog trainers I have ever met, though she doesn't have ANY of the letters you like on dog trainers. (or didn't the last time the subject came up)

I'm done with this conversation. It has drifted way away from giving Shama's owner concrete advice on a subject when she asked for it.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

agreed Karen . I give all good trainers their credit and I have never based it on initials thats why I asked her because she is a well known respected trainer. I ask others to do the same and not criticize them without knowing all the facts.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

davetgabby said:


> I heard a lot of criticism for an event that no one except Shamas mom witnesses and even she didn't blame anyone.


Thank you, Dave. I am reluctant to criticize the trainers who have been working with Shama and me. They are great people, and I do think we've learned a lot from them. I'm sure they felt terrible about what happened, and I expect new rules will be laid out at Thursday night's class.

I am sorry that forum members sometimes take offense from others' posts. I generally believe the best about people and figure that anything people post is a genuine effort to be helpful. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.

Shama was her regular self at agility class yesterday. Loving to run and jump and tunnel. Doing the dog walk (at 3 feet) and the full-size teeter like nobody's business. We have many things to work on, however. 1) She leaves me to go see her doggie friends (really stresses me out, especially given the Thursday night skirmish!) 2) She sit/stays only when she feels like it. 3) She barks from her crate if she can see me (only at agility - the only time she barks at me at home is when she's inviting play).

Maybe I could work on 1) and 2) by getting the tastiest treats EVER! I usually have seven different types of treats with me, however, and I know she does like them. People go on and on about how their dogs love hot dogs, but I can't bring myself to offer Shama even the tiniest bit of a hot dog.

Unless you have the time and the inclination, you don't need to reply to my 1, 2, and 3 here. They probably should be their own posts.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Update: I emailed my instructor about the plan going forward, and this is part of what she replied . . .

_I overestimated the progress Rex had seemingly made. That night Rex's first recall was perfect, never a look around, so was too complacent about doing a second one.

I think the problem was partly one of motion--Rex was in motion when he saw movement in your area. Now I am also nervous about stationary exercises--stay in a line where all are off leash.

It is difficult to continue helping a dog like Rex._


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## Layla's Mom (Feb 1, 2016)

That is great news! I figured she'd make some course corrections and it sounds like she is :smile2:. Good luck at class and you've gotten tons of advice here, so I'd say go and have a great time with Shama! Feel free to report back :wink2:


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

a learning experience for everyone, thanks for sharing your story.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

The incident happened on Thursday, 4/20/17. She was fine at agility class in the same facility on Monday, 4/24. On Thursday, 4/27, she was not her usual chipper self at Intermediate Obedience class (where the incident occurred). She wasn't interested in working and could not be coaxed with her treats. She did a small amount of heel/sit/down/stay, but for much of the heeling time, she would sit and not advance, especially if Rex was at the end of the ring where we were heading. One surprise, however, was that she tolerated being left with a "stranger" better than ever before. While in a down stay, she let me leave the room several times for varying amounts of seconds (nowhere close to the three minutes required by Canine Good Citizen) without fussing. Previously, she's barked/yelped/whined at least a little bit. She didn't make any sound this time. She was at the far end of the ring from Rex when we were practicing this. The "stranger" was our basic instructor. We took Basic twice before moving up to Practical which has now been renamed Intermediate. (This is our fourth eight-week session of Practical/Intermediate.) We have our Canine Good Citizen test on May 18. I'll let you know what happens. (I'm figuring her behavior in class will return to normal at some point?)


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Glad she did as well as she has, though she is a bit uncomfortable with Rex around, not surprisingly, I'm sure. I do hope she can return to having fun again even if he is there..., but I'd always keep my eyes on him, too, if I were her.


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## Layla's Mom (Feb 1, 2016)

ShamaMama said:


> The incident happened on Thursday, 4/20/17. She was fine at agility class in the same facility on Monday, 4/24. On Thursday, 4/27, she was not her usual chipper self at Intermediate Obedience class (where the incident occurred). She wasn't interested in working and could not be coaxed with her treats. She did a small amount of heel/sit/down/stay, but for much of the heeling time, she would sit and not advance, especially if Rex was at the end of the ring where we were heading. One surprise, however, was that she tolerated being left with a "stranger" better than ever before. While in a down stay, she let me leave the room several times for varying amounts of seconds (nowhere close to the three minutes required by Canine Good Citizen) without fussing. Previously, she's barked/yelped/whined at least a little bit. She didn't make any sound this time. She was at the far end of the ring from Rex when we were practicing this. The "stranger" was our basic instructor. We took Basic twice before moving up to Practical which has now been renamed Intermediate. (This is our fourth eight-week session of Practical/Intermediate.) We have our Canine Good Citizen test on May 18. I'll let you know what happens. (I'm figuring her behavior in class will return to normal at some point?)


I would say "party, party, party, treat, treat, treat" for every little success she has! This will give her confidence, which I'm sure has been shaken. I'd also ignore her mistakes and just reward for all her correct behaviors and for just being there and having a GREAT time. She will come around, but be patient it might take a couple sessions. Also, if you can get time in that same ring when no ones using it, I would take her in and work her on exercises you know she's good at and then "party, party, party and treat, treat, treat" for her success! Good luck!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

good stuff.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

At her second intermediate obedience class since the skirmish, she was still not herself. She didn't want to heel in the direction of Rex at all, even when Rex was WAY at the other end of the ring. She would dig in her heels and not budge. We didn't ever get close to Rex. Strangely enough, however, her ability to stay calmly with a "stranger" while I'm out of sight has improved. She also did two nice recalls in the opposite direction of Rex when Rex was out of the ring under close supervision. Meanwhile, she had been her regular, fearless self at agility training on Monday night. We're going to the Animal Humane Society's Walk For Animals tomorrow. I'll post some photos.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Thought you might be interested in this short article that came today from Whole Dog Journal:

*Break Up Dog Fights Without Getting Bit*

There is no golden standard for breaking up a dogfight, but there are as many opinions as there are dog owners. My recommendation is to try a sudden aversive, such as a loud noise near the combatants as a first line of defense. Bang pots and pans or steel water dishes together while yelling. Cease the instant the dogs disengage.

If this doesn't work (try for two or three seconds, then move on), the two most experienced people, wearing the animal control gloves, will each pull one dog off as follows:

Grip the base of the tail where it joins the body
Pull both dogs simultaneously quickly out and up, raising the rear quarters off the ground
Secure both dogs with leashes and assess for damage.

If this doesn't work, use citronella and, if that doesn't work, pepper spray. Other people present should be securing all dogs not involved in the fight.

The very last resort to consider is pulling dogs out by their collars or necks. This is because of the significant risk of an accidental or re-directed bite. This risk is even greater if you are without gloves, which offer some protection. Many of the worst bites are sustained putting hands into fights.

For more information on ways to separate aggressive dogs as well as ways to use behavior modification to retrain an aggressive dog, purchase Jean Donaldson's FIGHT! A Practical Guide to Dog-Dog-Aggression.


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