# Havana Silks



## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

I have read the controversy over the Havana silk dogs. I am not clear on what they are suggesting, ....that the dogs were bred to something other than themselves to create these other gene pools? How do you alter the dogs genetic make up if not. Why don't they have these dogs ( havanese ) DNA tested to tell the make up? There are many companies out their that do this. If you google DNA heritage for dogs...there are many. Or am I missing what they, (Diane Klumb) are saying?


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

:behindsofa:


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## CacheHavs (Aug 2, 2007)

LOL.. :behindsofa:I'm With you Michele eep:


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

I suggest you do a search on this forum about HSD, read through the 2 or 3 looong threads and see if any of your answers will be covered. But be prepared, you may need some op2: and feel like :boxing: at some point


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)




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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Hi Connie,

This thread: http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=1809&highlight=havanese+silk+dogs might help you know more about what the HSD people are trying to say. But as Maryam sugg'd, make sure you have loads of time and patience to plow through the many posts there. lol

This one too: http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=1737&highlight=havanese+silk+dogs


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

The rest of you are a hoot!! I just about PIMP laughing at your emoticons!!!!! :biggrin1: ound:


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Whats PIMP laughing?? lol


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## CacheHavs (Aug 2, 2007)

I'm guessing (peed in my pants)


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

The best place to ask about the Silk Dogs is through Silk Dog breeders. :spy: There is one active member here by the name of Tom King that is an HSD breeder. He is probably the only one who can accurately answer your questions. Most of the rest of us are still in the dark about the truth of all of it. :decision:


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Welcome to the forum, be sure to not let these threads scare you!

Amanda


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

You guys are killin' me!!!!!

Kimberly - very good answer. Were you a diplomat in a former life?


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## casperkeep (May 16, 2007)

I am sure you will get plenty of info on here just be prepared.....this topic can get kinda crazy!!!! Welcome to the forum as well!!!!


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)




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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

I find the DNA thing interesting because I read something recently that they can trace "dogs" back to a certain type of wolf (Asian) and even go as far as saying the main line and like 3 lesser lines. I have no idea what dog DNA testing can tell regarding breed but would be interested to learn more.


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

*havanese silks*



anneks said:


> I find the DNA thing interesting because I read something recently that they can trace "dogs" back to a certain type of wolf (Asian) and even go as far as saying the main line and like 3 lesser lines. I have no idea what dog DNA testing can tell regarding breed but would be interested to learn more.


put in a google search for DNA heritage testing for dogs, there are many companies out there that can trace the


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

Interesting! I wonder though if it would show up in their tests if it was something that happened so long ago if at all.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

CacheHavs said:


> I'm guessing (peed in my pants)


You got it, Heather! Ryan, it's a girl thing I guess.  lol ound:


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> put in a google search for DNA heritage testing for dogs, there are many companies out there that can trace the


At this time, there are only a limited number of breeds that can be recognized by these companies. MetaMorphix Inc. ($79.95), only recognizes 38 breeds. BioPet's test ($59.95) can recognize 58 breeds. Mars Veterinary covers more than 130 breeds but requires a blood test at a veterinarian's office, which can run about $200.

The AKC has over 163 breeds recognized, so unfortunately, the DNA recognition of these companies isn't very vast yet.


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

*havana silks*



Havtahava said:


> At this time, there are only a limited number of breeds that can be recognized by these companies. MetaMorphix Inc. ($79.95), only recognizes 38 breeds. BioPet's test ($59.95) can recognize 58 breeds. Mars Veterinary covers more than 130 breeds but requires a blood test at a veterinarian's office, which can run about $200.
> 
> The AKC has over 163 breeds recognized, so unfortunately, the DNA recognition of these companies isn't very vast yet.


Before reading or knowing about this controversy I have wondered why my dogs are so very different....Ellla my girl has a soft fine coat, small boned, Ollie my boy is large with curly hair and stands much taller. Each dog shares the same grandfather, Buenos Amigos Yeremia Yerry, the father of the ollie and ella are from Christa's Jumpy clown Yoyo and Christa's Jumpy Clown Xaver. The difference between these two dogs is incredible, considering they share a lot of the same lines.


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## Suuske747 (May 9, 2007)

Hey Connie, so you got your Hav's from Hungary!
Yerry is from the same breeder Sierra is  I have seen his pictures on her site, he went to a reputable breeder in Hungary and being very succesful!
And uhmm the other issue.....I'll....eep:


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Connie, welcome to the forum. All of our dogs are different. You can sit ringside at any show and wonder about the differences. Coming from a breed that is very consistent and recognizable, this was a shock to me. The more I am around the Havanese, the more I see the similarities in personalities, reactions, and actions. Coat and size seems to be the major area where our differences are more apparent.

No one wants to open the HS issue again. When you read the threads you will understand why.


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

*havana silks*



SMARTY said:


> Connie, welcome to the forum. All of our dogs are different. You can sit ringside at any show and wonder about the differences. Coming from a breed that is very consistent and recognizable, this was a shock to me. The more I am around the Havanese, the more I see the similarities in personalities, reactions, and actions. Coat and size seems to be the major area where our differences are more apparent.
> 
> No one wants to open the HS issue again. When you read the threads you will understand why.


Yes, I am getting this sense, sorry for the sore subject, I just am very interested in this and want to fully understand it as I am just starting to breed my dogs. I want to learn........so everyone please don't shut me out......some questions my sound stupid, but i am learning!!


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Connie, I don't think anyone wants to shut you out. That's why we recommended you read the other threads. I personally think you should hear both sides of the story and maybe contact a reputable Havanese breeder, then contact a reputable HSD breeder and decide for yourself what you are interested in. I think it's completely understandable that you want to know what the deal is now that you want to start breeding.


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## casperkeep (May 16, 2007)

I agree that we do not want to shut you out.....you need to learn all you can and this is a great place to learn. My dad always says the only stupid question is the one you don't ask....so please don't feel that way. Enjoy this place!!!


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

I don't see anything wrong with discussing the differences personally. If they are claiming that HSD is a seperate breed it is no diference than our discussing havanese vs. maltese. I think as long as people discuss the issue rationally it is a valid discussion. I think there is still a lot to be learned and jumping to any conclusions based on what a few people say or interpret is rash. The important thing is to do all the research for yourself and keep your ears and eyes open. I know I am amazed by things I hear and see all the time!


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

OH NO!! NOT THIS AGAIN!!:jaw::bolt:


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Connie,
Welcome to the Forum!!  This is a great place to learn a lot about the Havanese and a little about Havana Silk Dogs (or a lot if you believe they are one and the same).

Lina, where did you get the icon of the blue smiley hiding under the chair... I love it.


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## Doggie Nut (Oct 20, 2006)

Uh oh.....ok, I'll start looking for my armour!







Couldn't find the armour so I cranked up my tank! I'm ready now! :frusty::biggrin1:


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Susan, I got it from here.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

anneks said:


> I don't see anything wrong with discussing the differences personally. If they are claiming that HSD is a seperate breed it is no diference than our discussing havanese vs. maltese.


 There shouldn't be anything wrong with it, but it seems that the conversations usually degrade into slams against Havanese or even implied slams... or tempers flare. It's still just a bit too touchy of a subject with many people.

Seriously though, if you really want to learn about Silk Dogs, Connie, there are many places to go to ask them. To my knowledge, Tom is the only HSD breeder here, and he hasn't jumped in to respond, so it may be worthwhile to go ask one from their web site linked e-mail.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Since we are on the topic...........

A friend of mine is considering getting a new puppy.. a Havanese! OR an HSD...
I have tried to tell them as much as I know about the split and what you get and do not get for both 'breeds', but I guess I do not know very much really, even after reading all the original HSD/Havanese threads here and elsewhere. (and obviously I'm a bit biased as well being a havanese owner)

One question she has is this..(I did not even know this was a question or something to think about?? )
Are all puppies out of a HSD breeders litter infact HSD? Do they come out already pre approved HSD? or do they need to wait till they are 2 yrs of age to be registered as HSD? And if they do not make the grade, then do they get downgragded to Havanese only? Or does the simple fact of being bred by HSD breeders (HSD dogs) make the offspring HSD? Also, what if HSD parents are downgraded to Havanese? I'm assuming that means all offspring is no longer able to be HSD either?? 

Does this question even make sense??
Anyone know the simple answer?? (i guess nothing in life is ever simple.. lol )

Ryan


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

My understanding is that the original dogs had to qualify to be HSD, and wouldn't be "downgraded". Any offspring from an HSD would automatically be an HSD (after they closed their registry last year). If a dog has two HSD parents, but they were only "Havanese" when it was born, it is still just a Havanese (unless the owner chose to have it evaluated to be in the HSD registry last year). I believe that only dogs born as HSD can become HSDs now. No other dogs may be evaluated for inclusion. Maybe Tom can correct me if I have misinformation here. 
(I think my answer has more info than you wanted.)

I'm curious to know what happens in the HSD world if someone takes a registered HSD stud and breeds it to a plain ol' Havanese. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with that on the AKC side because AKC just recognizes them both as Havanese. But, what happens on the HSD side? Is it considered an HSD, a Hav or a mutt?


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

Havtahava said:


> Is it considered an HSD, a Hav or a *mutt*?


I believe the correct term is designer dog.


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

*havana silks*



Beamer said:


> Since we are on the topic...........
> 
> A friend of mine is considering getting a new puppy.. a Havanese! OR an HSD...
> I have tried to tell them as much as I know about the split and what you get and do not get for both 'breeds', but I guess I do not know very much really, even after reading all the original HSD/Havanese threads here and elsewhere. (and obviously I'm a bit biased as well being a havanese owner)
> ...


I think that is a great question, also does anyone know why they need to be 2 years old? Also does anyone know exactly when the breed standard changed, I don't mean the written standard...when there was the appearance change, and why wasn't it addressed then instead of letting breeders breed off the standards, and then resulting in changing the written standard. when they realized the standard changed why didn't they address it way back then? Also where do you get these cool icons???????????


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Connie, there have always been a bunch of different looks (styles) of Havanese in the ring. It hasn't really changed per se, but several people that thought they had more of one style wanted to branch off and try to call it a different breed.


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

Here is what confuses me. If you buy a HSD to show/breed and it is born to registered HSD dogs this is what their website says:

If your dog is eligible for the HSDAA by virtue of his parentage, but under the age of two, follow steps 1, 2, 3, and 4. The dog will then receive a Provisional Certified registration certificate. When the dog reaches the age of two, documentation to convert to Certified registration will be required within the year.

So if you show for two years and for some reason they dog doesn't pass the HSD evaluation what is the dog considered? Does it still retain it's HSD status but is stated that it shouldn't be used for breeding to other HSD's?


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I think it is no longer a certified HSD but rather a HSD by blood?


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

I imagine they would still be HSDs but maybe w/o the recommendation to be bred because they fail to have all the traits that the HSD people are trying to 'filter' out. But I honestly have no idea, it's just a guess.


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

Ryan,
I really hope you didn't tell your friend that a Havanese is a 'downgrade' from an HSD. 
That would be like saying Valentino is a downgrade from Versace. Entirely a matter of preference. No 'grading' to it. 
Dawna


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Dawna,

LOL... I did not mean downgrade like that.. lol.. (well maybe in the eyes of the hsd breeder...lol)

The real question is - if she buys a puppu out of a HSD litter, will this puppy be and always be an HSD no matter what happens?

Ryan


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

:biggrin1:Just checking. LOL


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Beamer said:


> Since we are on the topic...........
> 
> A friend of mine is considering getting a new puppy.. a Havanese! OR an HSD...
> I have tried to tell them as much as I know about the split and what you get and do not get for both 'breeds', but I guess I do not know very much really, even after reading all the original HSD/Havanese threads here and elsewhere. (and obviously I'm a bit biased as well being a havanese owner)
> ...


This is hilarious!ound::brick:ound::brick:ound:


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

lol.. u know Julie, going back and reading the question, it is funny.. lol..

Maybe I'll just tell her to go and get a cat.. easy peasy... lol 

Ryan


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Just tell her----hey do you want a dog?ound:
They are all havanese till AKC says differently,if ever!ound:


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

This thread is funny! lol

I knew we'd continue to get questions on this, and probably will forEVER. Its even more confusing for me having seen lots of both and differences within each group.

BUT, I would speak with some breeders on both sides, that way, you can get both sides of the story. There is always 2 sides to everything.

Kara


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

anneks said:


> Here is what confuses me. If you buy a HSD to show/breed and it is born to registered HSD dogs this is what their website says:
> 
> If your dog is eligible for the HSDAA by virtue of his parentage, but under the age of two, follow steps 1, 2, 3, and 4. The dog will then receive a Provisional Certified registration certificate. When the dog reaches the age of two, documentation to convert to Certified registration will be required within the year.
> 
> So if you show for two years and for some reason they dog doesn't pass the HSD evaluation what is the dog considered? Does it still retain it's HSD status but is stated that it shouldn't be used for breeding to other HSD's?


I think it just reverts back to a Havanese.:crazy:


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Sorry, I'm late to this thread. I just saw it. None of the comments or assumptions are quite right here so far. These threads get way too complicated with personal opinions for almost anyone to read them to get the real story.

It's of course not an actual different breed yet since they are all still registered AKC Havanese but definately the starting point for a new breed. Right now the HSD's are registered as AKC Havanese and have all the rights as such. It may or may not always be this way. As the head of AKC said, "These splits happen, and the only thing you can say about them is that they are all different."

The HSDAA was started by a group of very experienced breeders who got tired of the fighting, compromising, and made a quick desision to start a completely new registry as it should be without compromise from the start. It's really taken off. Here's a link to the Texas A&M study which was one of the several issues:
http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/esm049v1

You can read about it here: WWW.HavanaSilkDog.org


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

Agreed that AKC hasn't recognized it as a seperate breed as of yet but they are being bred and marketed as one. I think most of us here have moved past the bickering and are just curious how the HSD certification works. Everyone hears things from different people and it's nice when you get a clear and concise answer from someone who is in the know. Clearing up confusion should help everyone.


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## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

Is there an emoticon for Edvard Munch's "The Scream"???


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Maybe someone could post "the real story" and that way it isn't complicated?


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

I'm sure someone will post the answer to the question(s)... I would think perhaps some of the HSD owners would possibly know? 
My friend read all this stuff and just laughed... She still wants one though!! lol

Ryan


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