# Delta Society No longer Allows Raw Fed Dogs



## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Delta Society no longer allws raw fed dogs!!!!! I don't know if this has been posted before, but I am shocked and disappointed. Their findings are not based on much research. 

https://www.deltasociety.org//Page.aspx?pid=638&srctid=1&erid=190196


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Julia, that is very interesting! All three of mine eat raw. They are so heathy and their stools are so firm it is hard to imagine that it could be bad for them or humans. I will be watching this closely as I certainly don't want to be doing the wrong thing.
Thanks for the info.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

That is very sad indeed. While I can understand the patients some of these dogs could be working could have a negative reaction to bacteria, I would hope those patients wouldn't be exposed to any dog to be honest. It really depends on the "expert" as to what the findings are regarding more bacteria being present on raw fed dogs then dogs fed kibble or canned food. I prefer the raw myself and feed both.


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## Laurasch (Jul 1, 2008)

Wow, this is very surprising. I too am feeding raw. My vet is a strong advocate of home cooked diets and totally against raw. After reading so much about how good raw is for dogs and how little training vets get in diet/nutrition I had decided to ignore his opinions. I felt like I was doing the very best possible for my guys. 

However, other than small odorless poos I didn't actually notice any difference. I started because Pepper has severe allergies and I was hoping for some relief for him, but that hasn't happened. Also I admit I'm sick of washing raw food out of their faces and them being quite damp for the next couple hours. (I do use 'flying saucers' which helps a lot.)

Pepper has his CGC and I got the Delta book intending to go through and get tested. I will be searching/reading and if Delta is right, may go back to high quality kibble.

Hope others will share any other research/info they find!

PS: I've asked Delta to share their references/sources.


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

I feed raw, home cooked an kibble and am not planning to stop feeding raw. If Brandy (my female standard) would enjoy the raw more, I would switch all three to raw only. But, she will not eat raw all the time, so I feed combination.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

Tim refuses to consider feeding raw to Roscoe for pretty much the same reasons listed on the Delta website. He has his BS in Biology, Master's in Public Health, and is halfway through his MD. So, I don't really get to argue with his logic, lol.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Are they getting paid like the vets are by science diet? What I hate is "research" without anything to back it up. I have really liked what raw has done for my dogs all of which have therapy dog titles. I do think some people probably shouldn't have interactions with dogs if their immune systems are severly compromised. Even before my dogs were raw fed, they are still dogs. They roll in stuff, eat stuff they aren't suppose to, etc. Before therapy dog I usually do try to have the dog bathed and groomed nicely.

BTW, I have one dog with a delta certification (we don't use it) but blah to an organization that says AAFCO approved food list is better for your dogs... ugh, done complaining!


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

I totally agree with you, Amanda! Sure there are hygiene steps to take to ensure the dog doesn't have raw liver bits stuck to his beard, but c'mon, they aren't walking cases of Salmonella! 

Like you, Julia, I feed a combo of raw bones, kibble and homemade cooked. Works for me!


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

I would think any bacteria they pick up just walking through a hospital or nursing home would be worse than some tiny bit that could be on them from their food!


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

The other thing I thought of. Most people use topical flea repellents at least once a month on their dogs. That has to be really bad as well.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I've been racking my brain to recall the speaker and I don't have my notes with me, but when I attended a feeding seminar at UC Davis several years ago, there was some evidence presented about salmonella being shed on the faces and in the feces of raw fed dogs. I just wish I could recall the source.

The Canadian Veterinary Journal has a study published online that shows 30% of dogs on a BARF diet in a controlled study shed salmonella. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC339295/


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

You know, thinking on this and knowing just how our meats are produced these past 20-some years, esp. today, it isn't all that surprising to see salmonella found in feces and/or on faces of dogs fed raw diets. I take back what I said, thanks to Kimberly's link and realizing that any fowl is almost always infected with some kind of 'crap'. 

I've been conflicted with buying cheap, factory-farmed meats for the dogs, yet refuse to buy it for us. I could find and buy grass-fed, freely grazing, humanely slaughtered meats for them, but the costs are nuts!! 

I think that feeding THAT kind of raw meat would bring down those numbers mentioned at that link... maybe??


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## Miss Paige (Apr 4, 2008)

I feed my three canned-and home cooked-and I buy the meat for them at a Organic food market-they eat a lot of home made meat loaf-with vegs mixed up in it. I still say they eat better than me.

I have fed raw and will probably go back to it soon-I have just stayed away from the NV till I am sure it's okay. 

Paige is having a really bad reaction to something and for the life of me I can't figure out what-I have changed her food-really bland for now-getting her shampooed by my groomer with oatmeal shampoo & conditioner-but for now nothing is helping-she is on meds-and a spray-her coat is a mess. That is one reason she will be staying home this year from Ca.

Pat


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I know from some of the things I have read that salmonella and other bacteria are found on kibble and dried treats as well. Look at how many different dry and canned food that was later recalled (some for salmonella) and just as well could be transfered from a dog to a person.


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## Pixiesmom (Jul 31, 2008)

I was just reading the NV website and they use pasteurizaton on the medallions to kill bacteria. These medallions are continuing to catch my interest. They look nothing like I thought they would.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Thanks for the link to that study, Kimberly. I was just about to post something similar to that but didn't have the link with me.

Although I wouldn't say to anyone that you should never feed raw food to your dog, I do have to agree with the study above and the statements by the Delta Society that the shedding of salmonella amongst other bacteria from the feeding of raw is something to consider when doing therapy work with your dog. Also in homes with small children, but that's just my personal opinion. 

Amanda, that's true that dry food may contain salmonella in it but the likelihood of that vs. raw is much much smaller. If you read the study that Kimberly linked to you will see that they did use a control set that were fed commercial dry food and none of them had salmonella present whereas 80% of the raw samples had salmonella and 30% of the dogs were shedding it. That is definitely statistically significant, though one might argue that perhaps a larger number of dogs might help with this study (on the other hand 20 dogs is a large enough sample to make a statistical observation, just not as large as I would have liked to see).


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I did look at the study as well and it reminds me to be considerate of when we visit nursing homes but they don't have any known cases of humans getting salmonella from a raw fed dogs. I think it is something like 30% of our human grade chicken meat has salmonella and other bacteria on it as well hence you should freeze it . But there have been a lot of known cases of people getting salmonella from dogs fed kibble-handling it directly or their dog. That is where I think Delta is going wrong! It could be people who fed raw are more likely to take precautions and people who feed kibble are not, the craziness with kibble companies for awhile, etc.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

I know some people truly fear the salmonella risks, but it isn't a huge concern for me. Of course my dogs don't do therapy and aren't around young children. I am careful about washing dishes and hands in hot soapy water. I wipe their beards after they eat, but I'm not finicky about it. I still advocate feeding raw, but I would be cautious about where the meats come from, taking into consideration how the animal was raised, then slaughtered, then packaged and sold. 

Pasteurization means the food has been 'cooked', no? If that's the case, how could the medallions still be raw? Or am I confused?? LOL


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## Pixiesmom (Jul 31, 2008)

http://www.naturesvariety.com/raw_info/quality-safety

This explains it. They look like cut up hotdogs minus the skin.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Thanks so much, Beth! Makes sense now.  I used to feed these medallions to mine, but the prices skyrocketed 1.5 yrs. ago or so and it was nuts.


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## Laurasch (Jul 1, 2008)

I'm feeding Stella and Chewy's raw food. Sounds like they are doing the same things as NV (careful processing and independent testing for salmonella and e-coli). Here's a link to their explanation if you're interested. http://www.stellaandchewys.com/safety.html

My dogs love their food. I use the frozen normally and take the freeze dried on trips. It can be served as is or you can add water to make hamburger consistency or stew. It doesn't have to be soaked overnight.

I did contact Delta and got an auto-response that they will only address all raw food questions via postings on their website. I got the feeling they are being inundated...


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Here is another take on the Delta decision:

http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/ar...uence-delta-society’s-ban-of-raw-feeding.html

This excerpt from that site --- *"So&#8230;where did shocking decision this come from? The answer could lie on this page of the Delta Society website; the listing of Board of Directors&#8230; http://www.deltasociety.org/Page.aspx?pid=252

Listed as Secretary for the charity is Brenda Bax; Marketing Director, Purina.

As you ponder the possibility that Purina Pet Food influenced The Delta Society's move to ban pets fed raw meat, consider the following letter sent to Delta Society from one educated petsumer&#8230; "*

Makes you want to read more! The link has more info and other links....


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Quote from the site above: *"Research indicates that approximately 36 percent of healthy dogs and 17 percent of healthy cats carry Salmonella in their digestive tract.3 The American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) agrees with these numbers.4 It is interesting to note that these numbers are based on kibble-fed dogs-which means that Salmonella is a natural part of life for our pets regardless of what they are eating. "


3. Hand, M.S., Thatcher, C.D., Remillard, R.L., and Roudebush, P. (2000)
Small Animal Clinical Nutrition. Mark Morris Institute. Pg. 36-42,188.
4. http://www.avma.org/reference/zoonosis/znsalmonellosis.asp
*


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

marjrc said:


> Listed as Secretary for the charity is Brenda Bax; Marketing Director, Purina.


Why am I *not* surprised!!!!


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

Marj, while I see where you are coming from, salmonella in the digestive tract does not pose an immediate risk to therapy patients, while salmonella on the hair of the dog does. Also, the risk of salmonella is greatly decreased by the meat being cooked, and basically eliminated by the meat being cooked properly. So, I can see why the concern is significantly reduced in kibble-fed dogs. Hospitalized people are at a much higher risk to be affected by bacteria as their immune systems are significantly weakened when compared to the average person. While you or I may not be affected by a small amount of salmonella (or any other bacteria, for that matter), it can be deadly to a person who is already sick.

Personally, I kind of doubt it had anything to do with the Purina Marketing Director sitting on the Delta board. Since she is a marketing exec, from a marketing standpoint it makes no sense. She knows that those who feed raw are generally among the most educated when it comes to dog food. Thus, should these owners decide to continue with Delta and stop feeding their dogs raw, they would most likely move to one of the high quality dry dog foods, NOT Purina. She knows that her target market of dog owners are the uneducated, the misinformed, the lazy, or those without enough income to justify purchasing higher quality food.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

galaxie said:


> She knows that her target market of dog owners are the uneducated, the misinformed, the lazy, or those without enough income to justify purchasing higher quality food.


That is right. Misinforming people about the risks of feeding raw and transferring salmonella has already been accomplished with just this. So it shows why she is a marketing exec


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

ama0722 said:


> That is right. Misinforming people about the risks of feeding raw and transferring salmonella has already been accomplished with just this. So it shows why she is a marketing exec


Honestly, it's not misinformation. Like the study that Kimberly noted, there IS a higher risk for raw fed dogs to carry salmonella on their beards, which can then be passed to people. To me, this is common sense. My boyfriend's cousin almost DIED of salmonella when she was 4 years old, now she is 15 and is still afraid to eat most types of meat. Salmonella is not something to be taken lightly, which is why Delta has made this decision. Their job is to protect the best interest of the people they provide therapy services to!

Just think to yourself: if it were YOUR loved one in the hospital, being put at a greater risk of developing a serious infection, wouldn't YOU want to reduce the risks as much as possible?

I know that you all who feed raw are obviously touchy about the subject because it is something you believe in, and you have found it to work well for your dogs. This is great - but you also have to consider that while it may work well for your family and your dogs, it does not necessarily work well for sick hospital patients with weak immune systems, or young children who have not yet built up the bacterial resistance that most adults have.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

There has never been a documented case of any person getting salmonella from a dog that is fed a raw diet. There have been plenty of documented cases of people getting salmonella from just handling dry kibble and even more handling dogs who eat dry kibble. 

As a raw feeder and one who has therapy dogs who make visits, yes, I am going to be "obviously touchy on this subject."  But raw feeders don't have the budget that Purina does either.

Having loved ones in a nursing home, I think the joy that I have see patients get from loving dogs are worth the risks. 

FYI- for those of you who have never done therapy dog a lot of the visits to "high risk" areas your dog is required to be bathed the morning of the visit. When we did the hospital visits in the cardiology ward, this was a requirement. I was also required to wipe her pads before putting her on the bed after she walked as well.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Also on the note of risks and my opinion, I honestly feel there are way more risks- catching something from the therapy dog handler, being bit by a dog, petting a dog that has been treated with heartworm or flea medication, etc. I would bet those would occur more often and have more negative effects than a therapy dog transmitting anything (salmonella whether kibble or raw fed) than anything else.

Also each location has different requirements for therapy dog. Everyone who does for example delta doesn't go to a hospital with people who are considered extremely high risk.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I've been in and out of the hospitals and nursing homes so much in the last two months. The contamination factors are outrageous. I think any risk that can be eliminated is a good one.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

Havtahava said:


> I've been in and out of the hospitals and nursing homes so much in the last two months. The contamination factors are outrageous. I think any risk that can be eliminated is a good one.


I totally agree. Since Tim is in medical school (starting 3rd year), I spend a lot of time around other medical students, doctors, nurses, etc. and the amount of bacteria already in hospitals is atrocious. It's through no fault of the medical professionals, it's just something that happens when patients are brought in with certain illnesses and the bacteria just becomes airborne. There are many patients in hospitals every year whose conditions would have improved if it weren't for the extra bacteria they were exposed to.

I can understand why Delta made this decision. Can you imagine the fall out (not to mention lawsuit) if a patient WERE to contract salmonella (or any other illness) from a therapy dog? And how absolutely awful would you feel if it was your dog?

Personally, I don't care if there haven't been any documented cases YET. The optimal word here is yet: if it is possible that therapy dogs carry salmonella on their beards, it is only a matter of time before someone gets sick.

This is the problem with the way the health care system is run in the US, and the US mentality of health care. The system should be based on PREVENTION rather than REACTION. This is a preventative measure that Delta is taking, rather than simply reacting once someone does get sick.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

galaxie said:


> Personally, I don't care if there haven't been any documented cases YET. The optimal word here is yet: if it is possible that therapy dogs carry salmonella on their beards, it is only a matter of time before someone gets sick.


I am assuming you have never been involved with a therapy dog organization personally . I care because I have seen for several years how much joy it brings to take therapy dogs to visit people. Many people especially in retirement faciltiies never have visitors, many of them have very positive interactions with animals and can amazingly relate to dogs in a different way. I have done hospital visits but usually it was different people on a monthly basis so I didn't get to know the individuals as well to talk to them. I think it is a very special program and a wonderful thing for anyone with a dog to do. I think the joys outweigh the risks for patients as well. The last year while my grandmother was going through chemotherapy there was a therapy dog group that visited the facility and I am very glad they visited her hosptial too.

I usually try to totally wash my dogs before visits but definitely wash their faces and their paws if not. I did this when they were on kibble and do it while they are on raw as well. I always take my bag with baby wipes, etc. You never know what is gonna happen on a visit or what you need. I even have a blanket for them to sit on. However, most of the patients Belle visits never use the blanket and pick her up and snuggle her


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

My mother lived her last years in an Assisted Living facility as she declined with Alzheimer's Disease. We, my sisters and brother, and I visited every day but I can tell you that there were some people there who never had a visitor. We would also visit with those residents and the joy they'd get from a visit from a complete stranger was unbelievable! Just to have someone to listen to them for a few minutes or give them a hug meant the world to them. In this case I firmly believe the risk is worth it as I think I'd be just as much of a threat if I'd prepared a meal at home and hadn't washed my hands.


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## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

I don't want to get in the middle raw versus otherwise. I am only speaking on a personal level when my mother-in-law was in a nursing home for 5 years. When the therapy dogs came to visit, it was the highlight of their day. For some weeks, months, years. With all the other possible germ-ridden concerns they are subject to, I never once considered the dogs they were enjoying, petting, loving for the moment could potentially be posing a health risk and exposure to salmonella. If we were ever made aware of it or asked to sign a consent form, I would have willingly signed it without hesitation. The joy it brought them, IMO, was worth the small risk.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Havtahava said:


> I've been in and out of the hospitals and nursing homes so much in the last two months. The contamination factors are outrageous. I think any risk that can be eliminated is a good one.


I don't think we can call dogs who eat raw food a risk until there is proof. It's not like the patient would be ingesting the dogs face.

More patients die in hospitals from infections the obtained while in the hospital.

I think this whole thing is a bunch of hogwash! I would bet it does have more to do with selling more Purina dog food then not.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Proof of what? There are studies that have been done that show salmonella is present on the faces and feces of dogs that are raw fed (at least with chicken for certain). I linked to one study that is published online. I think it is going to be difficult to prove the source of the contamination of a human, unless the exact strain is traced back to the source, so prevention is a good measure. We all know that salmonella is dangerous. Since therapy dogs tend to visit areas where people have immunity issues (elderly, hospitals, children), it would make sense to be cautious instead of reactive.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

Cautious, yes. As Amanda said she bathes her dogs before a visit and also cleans their faces and paws. What more can you do? All dog waste contains horrible bacteria no matter what they're fed.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I agree always be cautious and most therapy dog groups have rules (I have belonged to 4 different groups) on dog cleanliness and what is required depending on where you go, the patients involved, etc. It is just pretty shocking to me that when over 100 brands of kibble have been known to cause salmonella in about 100 people in the last few years, it is raw that is thrown out. But then when you see the board member, I think that says a lot. Also different places have different rules of where you visit. We have one that they actually provide the sanitary wipes for us to wipe down our dogs when we arrive in the lobby. Part of it when you think about it, I go from room to room with my dog and almost everyone pets them. Think of all the bacteria just from that!

From my experience, raw feeders tend to be really crazy dog people (hence I fit in). If you are willing to spend that much time and money on your dog's diet you are probably willing to keep them clean. Let alone if you are willing to volunteer your time visiting the elderly and sick patients.... 

Just the opinion of one CDL to the extreme


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Amanda, Ann, Sharlene...........ditto, ditto, ditto! There are risks everywhere in life.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Natalie wrote: *"This is the problem with the way the health care system is run in the US, and the US mentality of health care. The system should be based on PREVENTION rather than REACTION. This is a preventative measure that Delta is taking, rather than simply reacting once someone does get sick."*

I agree that prevention is a much better approach to health care than reaction. The problem I have with this topic is the fact stated at the site I mentioned, 
--- *"So&#8230;where did shocking decision this come from? The answer could lie on this page of the Delta Society website; the listing of Board of Directors&#8230; http://www.deltasociety.org/Page.aspx?pid=252*

I truly can't ignore the fact that this woman is a marketing director for Purina. It is not a coincidence that she is also part of the board that came to the conclusion to exclude from therapy, dogs that are on a raw diet. Basically, "if you want your dog to be a therapy dog, feed it kibble or we won't accept him" Sure it's true that most people won't necessarily buy Purina and can choose dozens of other kibble brands, but in the end, it sounds like the typical vet who still believes that kibble is the best diet a dog can be on, a kibble that contains corn, wheat products and little meat no less. It's just frustrating to hear such backward thinking like this. And I don't raw feed my dogs, just the meaty bone once in a while. I just hate to have choices taken away from me.

I totally agree that pet therapy groups need to have strict hygiene rules for animals that visit sick people. Of course, I wouldn't want a "contaminated" dog visiting my dad in the cancer ward or my grandmother recovering from pneumonia! But to eliminate all pets that are fed raw diets, to me, is overkill. 
It's like coming up with a rule that nurses, doctors or orderlies who eat steak tartar can't be allowed to practice their therapy in hospitals anymore because they may have bits in their mustache, teeth, hair or clothing. There are rules for washing hands, but other than that, one can't make a law as to what diet these people must follow! So what if some feces contained salmonella? I'd hate to find out what humans' feces can contain at times! Patients aren't coming into contact with the dogs' feces.

I'm worried that if Delta makes this rule, then other therapy groups will be forced to follow and all the therapy pets used for health benefits in patients, children and the elderly will be forced to quit this rewarding work.


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## CinnCinn (Mar 30, 2007)

The Delta Society REQUIRES your dog be bathed within 24 hrs of a visits.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Here is the latest news regarding Purina pet food working with the Delta Society in spite of the latter assuring people that this would not happen. I'm not surprised!! Is it any wonder that Delta banned dogs fed raw diets??

http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/articles/this-is-nuts.html

*".... the new Delta Society Pet Partner banner (the harness type clothing that the dogs wear indicating they are a trained volunteer) now includes a Purina Pet Food logo. In other words, every Pet Partner will now be a walking advertisement for Purina Pet Food. "*


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

:deadhorse: and most of all uke:


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## Laurasch (Jul 1, 2008)

marjrc said:


> http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/articles/this-is-nuts.html
> 
> *".... the new Delta Society Pet Partner banner (the harness type clothing that the dogs wear indicating they are a trained volunteer) now includes a Purina Pet Food logo. In other words, every Pet Partner will now be a walking advertisement for Purina Pet Food. "*


How sad that Delta is making such choices. Is there any specific action that we could take to let them know our disappointment in their becoming a marketing machine for a board member's company?


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

That's just wrong.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

This is worth reading.

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/13_7/features/Raw-Fed-Dogs_20025-1.html


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Thanks Daniel- As I went to therapy dog last night with Dash and later today with Belle, it keeps this policy on my mind. It also really concerns me thinking about therapy dog. Today Belle's visit is at a nursing home. Often times, Isabelle is chosen to go into the rooms of bed ridden patients who can be sick. Then Isabelle goes on to other rooms. 

So I learned something new that I am going to try!

One of the easiest ways to help keep dogs clean is with microfiber cleaning cloths. These rough-textured polyester-polyamide cloths were originally developed for “clean room” applications in the semi-conductor industry. Used wet or dry, they attract and trap dust, dander, loose hair, and other particles. Microfiber fabric does not disinfect, but it picks up and removes bacteria. Dogs can be wiped with clean microfiber cloths during therapy visits to minimize the transfer of potentially harmful bacteria from hands that pet them


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