# HOW SMALL IS "SMALL"?



## Olliesmom (Sep 29, 2006)

My heart just breaks for those of you who have/are experiencing liver issues. Altho it certainly isn't always the case it seems the so called "small" dogs seem to be at higher risk.

Can anyone give any guidance of what is actually considered SMALL and do you suggest periodic blood work for those consdiered "small"??????


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Great question Catherine - I was just wondering the same thing. Do you know the size of your sire and dam? I know genetics plays a big role as does whether your Havanese comes from fast or slow maturing lines.


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

I know Shadow was thought to be small, weighing only 5.8 lbs. at 8 mos. old. I never measured her height.


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## Gracie's Mom (Sep 7, 2007)

As you know, I am certainly no expert in this area as we are in the diagnosis stages of liver problems with our little Gracie. I would recommend looking through the threads (as I did) and compare her weight and age with other havanese from this forum. It will give you at least a guideline. When I did that I realized there were only a couple as small as she was at her age. I agree looking at the size of her mom & dad and brothers & sisters. This will help gage what she should be. If your dog is on the smaller end - it may be reason for concern. I'm not talking a few ounces difference. The pup will stand out as being quite a bit smaller - a pound or two or more. Some dogs are naturally smaller with no problems, but wouldn't you want to know for sure? From my experience if there is any question - test. A Bile Acid test is about $100. Many times a simple blood panel can detect a problem and that is even cheaper. It is much easier to work with when the problem is resolved earlier. Less damage, etc. This is coming from someone with NO medical background just personal experience. I am coming to realize that my fully grown Yorkshire Terrier of 2.8 lbs. probably had a liver shunt years ago. I honestly have NEVER had a healthy dog in my adult life. I'm beginning to get a complex!! You want a healthy dog - if there is question - test. I sound repeative, but I think worth repeating. I'm rambling now, but this topic is heavy on my heart right now.

Karen


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

I'm so sorry to hear about Gracie. I know how heartwrenchiing and nerve wracking this is. And there's very little that can be said to ease the pain and concern. Just remember you're not alone.

I also wondered what compromised "small" and if there is a certain age when the liver shunts are most often diagnosed. Tess is less than 10 pounds at 5 years old so I'm thinking she definitely fits into the "small" category but wondering if she's passed the danger zone at her age? 

Jill


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I've wondered about this too because Gucci is on the smaller side and we really picked her, not because she was "small" but that she was the runt, and I've always had a soft spot for 'runts' and my DH believes they always 'make great dogs', etc.

Right now, she is 8.5...which is what her breeder told me she would end up as...8-9. Although, at 6 months I think she was around 6 lbs? It seemed she quit growing at 9-10 months.

Kara


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

One thing I do and I have been very lucky with teh girls being healthy but I do a yearly blood exam. It isn't everything but it is suppose to catch things ahead of time. Here is an article that tells why it is important and what it helps. http://ezinearticles.com/?A-Blood-Test-for-Your-Dog&id=805085


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## Gracie's Mom (Sep 7, 2007)

As you can clearly see - as I described in my earlier post . . . like Kara, some think their dogs are small - 6 lbs. at 6 months. (Don't get me wrong - they are small . . .) But that is why it is clear to me then - that MY Gracie fits into the "extra small" catergory at 4 lbs. 4 oz. at 6 months. You can see there is an extreme difference in what I thought was small and what the general consensus of small really is. Hence, the reason to begin my concern for her. Just saying she is small is not a clear enough definition.

Karen


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## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

Karen--I am not an expert, but I agree with you. I would use the 1#/month as a minimum guideline with puppies. Anything smaller needs to be checked. Knowing what I know now, I would probably check a dog that meets the 1#/month standard. Nobody wants to "waste" money, but if the tests are normal, peace of mind is worth the price.


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## MaddiesMom (Apr 1, 2007)

Cheryl said:


> Knowing what I know now, I would probably check a dog that meets the 1#/month standard. Nobody wants to "waste" money, but if the tests are normal, peace of mind is worth the price.


*AMEN!!!*


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## Gracie's Mom (Sep 7, 2007)

Cheryl said:


> I would use the 1#/month as a minimum guideline with puppies. Anything smaller needs to be checked. Knowing what I know now, I would probably check a dog that meets the 1#/month standard.


Cheryl - I think you have come up with a fairly accurate description of what is small and what is abnormally small. I completely agree.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Bella was 4 lbs @ 7 months. She had 2 full panel blood tests that were both normal. It wasn't until she was 1 1/2 years old that the liver shunt was found. She started losing weight and had increased thirst. My vet insisted nothing was wrong, but I demanded a bile acid test. That's when we found her liver levels were off the charts. She had surgery and is living a normal adult life at 6-6.5 lbs. Here is Bella the day I got her at 7 months old and now. She was itty bitty.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

I think this is a great place to copy an item that appears in this month's *"Dogs in Canada" magazine, from Suzanne McKay of Havanese Fanciers of Canada*. The article is called "Smaller than Small".

"There's a big market for what some people refer to as "Designer dogs" and "itty bitty" dogs. The Havanese has recently fallen prey to the itty bitty craze. "Mini", "teacup" and "pocket" are just a few terms used as sales ploys to sell non-standard representatives of the breed at exaggerated prices to unsuspecting and uneducated puppy buyers.

According to the CKC breed standard, the Havanese does not come in size varieties. There is no such thing as a "mini/teacup/pocket" Havanese. The CKC standard identifies an accepted height of 21 to 29 cms. (about 8.3 to 11.4 inches). The Havanese belongs in the Toy Group and is small, but that does not mean he should fit in your pocket. The Havanese is a lap dog, family companion and children's playmate. He is small, but also sturdy.

"Mini, "teacup" and "pocket" are terms generally used for puppies/dogs bred specifically smaller than the breed standard to suit a demand in the designer pet market. Sellers try to capitalize on the impression the dogs are special or rare and therefore worthy of exorbitant prices. When a profiteering breeder decides to breed a new "designer" size, their primary and often only criteria for selecting mates is the size of the dogs. When only one aspect of the dog is considered, all other parts of the dog can suffer. Quality, termperament and health often decrease along with size.

A reputable Havanese breeder does not deliberately breed for dogs outside the accepted size. A smaller-than-usual Havanese can occur occasionally in any breeding program. Sometimes a puppy may be healthy and strong, but smaller than usual. Other times, unusually small size results from health issues or underlying organ problems such as a heart condition, liver shunt, etc. If a Havanese puppy is very small and expected to mature below the lowest limit of the standard, a reputable breeder will explain to you why it is such a small size and if there are any issues of concern. A breeder will not use such a puppy in their breeding program and will usually sell them as pets/companions.

So-called "Mini, teacup, pocket" Havanese can come with king-size unexpected expenses and heartache. Be informed and don't fall prey to a sales ploy!"

*Suzanne McKay, Breedlines Coordinator, Havanese Fanciers of Canada*


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## Olliesmom (Sep 29, 2006)

thx for all the input!

Think there may be a wave of havanese blodd tested in the US in the next few weeks. Ollie fits into the 1#/month category....finishing at about 8-9 lbs...he seems healthy however Austin is around 12 lbs and the diff between the body frame - energy etc is dramatic.

yes expensive but not nearly as expensive as what it could be if problems are found too late.

Blood work shows soooooooo much - may have saved my mom's life....

Test the little ones!....and heck nothing wrong with testing all our babies annually! eace:


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Luu was 5 lbs at 5 months. At 9 months she is only 6.4 lbs. This is small, I think.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

lfung5 said:


> Bella was 4 lbs @ 7 months. She had 2 full panel blood tests that were both normal. It wasn't until she was 1 1/2 years old that the liver shunt was found. She started losing weight and had increased thirst. My vet insisted nothing was wrong, but I demanded a bile acid test. That's when we found her liver levels were off the charts. She had surgery and is living a normal adult life at 6-6.5 lbs. Here is Bella the day I got her at 7 months old and now. She was itty bitty.


Hey Linda,
I have that rug AND that dog! lmao
xxooxound:


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## Gracie's Mom (Sep 7, 2007)

Bella sure is a cutie!! She looks so much like Gracie - with color.
Karen


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## MaddiesMom (Apr 1, 2007)

Linda- Bella is darling! I just love that face! Congrats to you for being persistant about the weight loss and thirst. You literally saved her life!


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