# Havanese or not .. purchased from Mylad



## Crystal23

Hi guys I hope this is the right section for my question.

I adopted my little guy from none other then Mylad Havanese back in October. I took him for his first full on grooming today where we have been taking our shihpoo for a few years now. The first thing the girl said was that he was not a havanese but probably a lhasa apso or mixed with havenese. Now I'm super worried I immediately did some research and think he looks more like a lhasa then a hav. I have no idea what to think since I thought mylad was very reputable.

I've added some pictures from when he was a puppy to now 7months. Please tell me that I'm worrying about nothing that he's a purebred hav.

Thanks a million.


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## Brady's mom

He looks like a havanese to me! My Mom's dog is from Yuppy Puppy, but he spent a lot of time at Mylad when he was getting his Canadian championship. She is a very reputable breeder. I have seen many havanese who look just like him! And, he is very cute!!!


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## AmyL

He does look Havanese, especially his almond shaped eyes in the last pic. Lhasas have smaller, deeper set, rounder eyes. Lhasas also have either teeth that meet, or a slight underbite, which he does not appear to have from the pics.


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## atsilvers27

Highly doubt he is anything other than pure Havanese, esp from where you're saying your dog is from. I'm not sure why the groomer said that - not very professional 1 and 2 she must know her breeds very well as a Havanese looks nothing like a Lhasa other than they are both small breeds with drop coats.


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## atsilvers27

Sorry she must NOT know her breeds very well.


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## marlowe'sgirl

Looks like a Hav to me. 

I get asked often if I have a Lhasa or a Shih Tzu or some sort of poodle mix. I've met a few Cavashons that look surprisingly Hav-like (but without the Hav personality). I think most people are much more familiar with Lhasas & Tzu's and it seems like every other person at the dog park had a designer mix. 

I think Havs are not quite popular enough to be readily distinguished. Though a few people have said my 17 lb Hav is too big to be a real Hav. There is quite a lot of variety in color and Hav size, so if their only experience is with 1 other Hav, I can see the uninitiated being a bit skeptical.


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## waybrook

He looks like an adorable Hav to me!


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## Crystal23

Thanks so much guys. I know I could count on you 

Next time I go down to the groomers although they're unprofessional they do an amazing job I'll let her know she was wrong and how unprofessional it was of her for me to me second guess Doug and Lauren.


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## atsilvers27

marlowe'sgirl said:


> Looks like a Hav to me.
> 
> I get asked often if I have a Lhasa or a Shih Tzu or some sort of poodle mix. I've met a few Cavashons that look surprisingly Hav-like (but without the Hav personality). I think most people are much more familiar with Lhasas & Tzu's and it seems like every other person at the dog park had a designer mix.
> 
> I think Havs are not quite popular enough to be readily distinguished. Though a few people have said my 17 lb Hav is too big to be a real Hav.


Agree. Maybe because of all the mixes out there now people automatically assume a dog is a mix if it does not look like a typical dog of the breed. I even had a coworker (at my old grooming salon) say she thought a stocky Springer spaniel that had shorter legs was part Clumber Spaniel! Or how a 100 lbs lab couldn't be a pure lab. If the dog looks like the breed but has different size proportions - it's probably a pure bred, just obviously not from show lines.

The sad part is that the OP's dog does come from show lines and has textbook Havanese expression and she was told he was mixed. That's like someone coming up to you (if you're a parent) and saying one of your children must be adopted. Well, not quite but you get the point.


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## krandall

I agree. He doesn't look at all like a Lhasa to me. I've heard nothing to make me believe that Mylad is anything but reputable. If you are REALLY concerned, you can have him DNA tested to make sure he matches the parents on his refistration papers. But I certainly wouldn't bother based on the say-so of a froomer who clearly doesn't know what a Lhasa looks like!


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## TilliesMom

HAV.


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## motherslittlehelper

I would agree with what the others are saying. I have never heard or read anything questionable about Mylad. He looks Hav to me as well.


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## misstray

Mylad is a very reputable breeder. I think your pup looks totally Hav. I wouldn't worry about it at all.


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## windym300

Yes, I agree with everyone else. Obviously the groomer isn't educated in her breeds, much less her manners. Try to not let it bother you. It wasn't that many years ago, I couldn't have told you the differences in them either. Of course I would have never assumed I did , and then tell someone their well-bred dog wasn't.. Really out of line! He is also a very Handsome Havanese at that!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## HalleBerry

I agree - Hav - but let me share with you one of my experiences from the Eukanuba in December - we were at the booth, Halle was on the table playing with anyone whose attention she could get  and a friend (who is a groomer & also show/breeds toy dogs) came by and said - _"She doesn't look like any of the Havanese I get at the grooming shop". _This was NOT meant to be critical - her point was that what she sees are mostly backyard bred pets, and they don't look anything like Halle. She brought by a friend who was looking at Havanese to show her the differences - point being that what many groomers may see is not a well bred Havanese, so with that in mind, your puppy may NOT look like what your groomer usually sees as a Havanese either, hence her comment.


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## krandall

HalleBerry said:


> I agree - Hav - but let me share with you one of my experiences from the Eukanuba in December - we were at the booth, Halle was on the table playing with anyone whose attention she could get  and a friend (who is a groomer & also show/breeds toy dogs) came by and said - _"She doesn't look like any of the Havanese I get at the grooming shop". _This was NOT meant to be critical - her point was that what she sees are mostly backyard bred pets, and they don't look anything like Halle. She brought by a friend who was looking at Havanese to show her the differences - point being that what many groomers may see is not a well bred Havanese, so with that in mind, your puppy may NOT look like what your groomer usually sees as a Havanese either, hence her comment.


Actually, my old vet said something similar when I brought Kodi in for the first time. But he phrased it a little differently... He said he'd never actually had his hands on a well-bred Havanese... Just puppy mill dogs from "Pick A Pup" (that's the actual name of the place!!!) down the street. Then he went on to tell me how beautifully put together he was and what a great temperament he had. What your friend and my vet said is a little different than this groomer saying the dog wasn't even a Havanese, though!!!


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## Tom King

That's a Havanese.


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## HalleBerry

I agree Karen, btw


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## lfung5

He looks all havanese. The groomer is an idiot


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## marlowe'sgirl

krandall said:


> Actually, my old vet said something similar when I brought Kodi in for the first time. But he phrased it a little differently... He said he'd never actually had his hands on a well-bred Havanese...


I was once told, "Your Havanese is so friendly and sweet, and is the happiest looking dog I've ever seen. I met one that was really snippy and mean, you must have gotten lucky with yours."

Clearly, I am lucky because my pup is the best dog ever but he is a well-bred Hav. I don't think the numbers of well-bred Havs vs puppy mills are enough to cement casual knowledge of breed, assuming one has even heard of Havanese. Also, casual knowledge might not put an 8 lb cream Hav with a puppy cut in the same category as a 17lb b&w with a show coat. I would have been confused before I had heard of Havs. It took me awhile when researching to realize that I could even get a bigger Hav - while I had fallen in love with everything about the breed, we didn't want an 8lb small dog in part because we wanted him to have a fighting chance against our feisty cat. Havs are not nearly as identical in look as say yorkies or yellow labs, which I love but would not have been aware of if I didn't frequent these forums so much.


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## krandall

marlowe'sgirl said:


> I was once told, "Your Havanese is so friendly and sweet, and is the happiest looking dog I've ever seen. I met one that was really snippy and mean, you must have gotten lucky with yours."
> 
> Clearly, I am lucky because my pup is the best dog ever but he is a well-bred Hav. I don't think the numbers of well-bred Havs vs puppy mills are enough to cement casual knowledge of breed, assuming one has even heard of Havanese. Also, casual knowledge might not put an 8 lb cream Hav with a puppy cut in the same category as a 17lb b&w with a show coat. I would have been confused before I had heard of Havs. It took me awhile when researching to realize that I could even get a bigger Hav - while I had fallen in love with everything about the breed, we didn't want an 8lb small dog in part because we wanted him to have a fighting chance against our feisty cat. Havs are not nearly as identical in look as say yorkies or yellow labs, which I love but would not have been aware of if I didn't frequent these forums so much.


I don't know Yorkies, but I know for a fact that Labs and Goldens very tremendously in size, coat color and texture, head shape and trainability. (temperament) Cute as the story was, there are all too many puppy mill (or BYB) "Marleys" out there. A well bred Lab is a calm, intelligent working breed. Same with Goldens. Even among the "good" breeders, there are those that breed for the conformation ring and those who breed Labs and Goldens for sport/work. The two different types could easily look like different breeds to the uninitiated.


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## motherslittlehelper

marlowe'sgirl said:


> I was once told, "Your Havanese is so friendly and sweet, and is the happiest looking dog I've ever seen. I met one that was really snippy and mean, you must have gotten lucky with yours."


I was told the very same thing the first time I took Augie to doggie day care here in our town. Their experience with Havs left them with the impression that Havs were a 'snippy', rather unpleasant breed. On a walk in the local park when Augie was probably about a year and half in age, I was approached by a woman with a little female Havanese. This woman was very interested in Augie being a stud to her little girl, because of his outgoing personality and luxuriant coat, neither of which were traits of her girl. I just told her sorry, but he was incapable. It was probably offspring of this unfriendly Hav that gave the daycare workers the impression of 'snippy' Havs.


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## jessegirl

Looks like a Hav to me too.


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## krandall

motherslittlehelper said:


> I was told the very same thing the first time I took Augie to doggie day care here in our town. Their experience with Havs left them with the impression that Havs were a 'snippy', rather unpleasant breed. On a walk in the local park when Augie was probably about a year and half in age, I was approached by a woman with a little female Havanese. This woman was very interested in Augie being a stud to her little girl, because of his outgoing personality and luxuriant coat, neither of which were traits of her girl. I just told her sorry, but he was incapable. It was probably offspring of this unfriendly Hav that gave the daycare workers the impression of 'snippy' Havs.


This SO amazes me. I haven't met a lot of puppy mill or BYB Havs... there just aren't that many Havs in this area, and the ones I know, I've met either through the forum, or through the local breed group. But every single one of them is sweet and friendly. The WORST I've seen is a couple taht are a bit shy and slow to warm up. But even they have been FAR from "snippy", and would come around quickly if you were quiet and gentle with them.

It is such a shame that poorly bred dogs are giving this breed, that is KNOWN for its sunny disposition, a bad name.


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## HalleBerry

Karen, unfortunately I've now seen havanese excused in the ring for not wanting to be examined on the table, havanese who don't want to be touched (and will snap at people), havanese who back away from anyone they don't know - and those are all dogs being shown. 

I am thankful every day for Halle - she is everything I didn't know that I wanted to look for in a havanese. And the more I see, the more thankful I am for her.


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## krandall

HalleBerry said:


> Karen, unfortunately I've now seen havanese excused in the ring for not wanting to be examined on the table, havanese who don't want to be touched (and will snap at people), havanese who back away from anyone they don't know - and those are all dogs being shown.
> 
> I am thankful every day for Halle - she is everything I didn't know that I wanted to look for in a havanese. And the more I see, the more thankful I am for her.


That's a real shame.  At least the judges ARE excusing them from the ring!!!


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## Sheri

Linda, there is someone breeding Havs on the south end of Whidbey that just puts males and females together and sells the resulting pups, apparently without any good breeding behind the sires and dams to start with, let alone testing/showing/keeping up the standard. There are some I've heard of from there and met a couple that definitely I wouldn't want. The vets on Whidbey don't have a good impression of Havs because of those dogs and others of similar bent. I went down to the south end to meet a trainer to see if I could tone down Tucker's exuberance with different training, (which didn't work, by the way, ha!) The trainer was highly recommended by Dave here on the Forum, that he knew about somehow. Anyway, she was very surprised when she met Tucker. She said she'd had a few training encounters with Havs having problems and they were pretty snippy, aggressive, had fear issues and barked a lot. She was surprised I even met with her, and thought Tucker was very nice and exceptional for the breed. I told her that he was the NORM, what a Hav was SUPPOSED to be like.


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## Eddie

*He sure is a Havanese 100% :thumb:*


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## davetgabby

tell your groomer you think she's part moron. :canada: Very rude for someone to infer you don't have what you say. Good example where Gwen and I had to bite our tongues was when Molly enrolled for puppy classes. At that time we had a limited knowledge of Havanese. So first day this lady comes up to us before class and says wow ,you have a Havanese too. And we look at her pup and it doesn't look much like a Havanese at all. So we didn't say anything. Went home and researched, and found what then was referred to as a short haired Havanese. So we were glad we didn't confront this lady.and I've had many cases where I've met dog owners where I have questioned their dog's breed. and bite my tongue. Now if they say something wrong about training, that'ts another story. lol


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## atsilvers27

davetgabby said:


> tell your groomer you think she's part moron. :canada: Very rude for someone to infer you don't have what you say. Good example where Gwen and I had to bite our tongues was when Molly enrolled for puppy classes. At that time we had a limited knowledge of Havanese. So first day this lady comes up to us before class and says wow ,you have a Havanese too. And we look at her pup and it doesn't look much like a Havanese at all. So we didn't say anything. Went home and researched, and found what then was referred to as a short haired Havanese. So we were glad we didn't confront this lady.and I've had many cases where I've met dog owners where I have questioned their dog's breed. and bite my tongue. Now if they say something wrong about training, that'ts another story. lol


That's funny. Well that reminds me of a client that brought in her "poodle mix", except it was a bichon. I nicely said her poodle looks a lot like a bichon and would she mind if I put it under that for the file. IMO groomers should only dispute the owner on breed if the dog looks very much like a different breed or the dog is very big for the breed and it would not be fair to the groomer to price it as that breed. For example I have seen many 20 lbs yorkies and pomeranians , as well as extra large cockers that are almost springer size.

Other than that, groomers should be happy the client is there and maybe jot down a note on the dog's file. The purpose of that is to be able to easily identify the dog, not try to be a know it all and offend the client.


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## misstray

When I took Brody to the groomer for the first time, she said, "Oh, he's a REAL Havanese. I wasn't expecting that. What a nice surprise."


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## krandall

atsilvers27 said:


> That's funny. Well that reminds me of a client that brought in her "poodle mix", except it was a bichon. I nicely said her poodle looks a lot like a bichon and would she mind if I put it under that for the file. IMO groomers should only dispute the owner on breed if the dog looks very much like a different breed or the dog is very big for the breed and it would not be fair to the groomer to price it as that breed. For example I have seen many 20 lbs yorkies and pomeranians , as well as extra large cockers that are almost springer size.
> 
> Other than that, groomers should be happy the client is there and maybe jot down a note on the dog's file. The purpose of that is to be able to easily identify the dog, not try to be a know it all and offend the client.


It also makes a difference whether the dog is a rescue or whether the person bought the dog as a specific breed. Although I hate puppy mills, once someone has brought the dog home, and loves it, I wouldn't tell them their dog wasn't a xxx, even if it didn't look quite right. OTOH, dogs from shelters are another story. From what I've seen, if a small dog has curly hair, it's a "poodle cross". If it has straight hair, it's a "Shih Tzu cross". So if a dog is from a shelter, where everyone is just guessing about parentage, I don't think there is any harm in suggesting other possibilities. It might help the owner to learn something about their dog! (for instance, if it's a Hav or Hav cross, it's going to tear up their toilet paper and steal kleenex! )


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## atsilvers27

krandall said:


> It also makes a difference whether the dog is a rescue or whether the person bought the dog as a specific breed. Although I hate puppy mills, once someone has brought the dog home, and loves it, I wouldn't tell them their dog wasn't a xxx, even if it didn't look quite right. OTOH, dogs from shelters are another story. From what I've seen, if a small dog has curly hair, it's a "poodle cross". If it has straight hair, it's a "Shih Tzu cross". So if a dog is from a shelter, where everyone is just guessing about parentage, I don't think there is any harm in suggesting other possibilities. It might help the owner to learn something about their dog! (for instance, if it's a Hav or Hav cross, it's going to tear up their toilet paper and steal kleenex! )


True. Many shelter people may not be familiar with some of the less common breeds. One of my clients, when she first brought her rescue dog in, said the dog was just some kind of mix. I told her, well he really looks like a Tibetan Terrier (I had a few regulars of those) and I opened the dog book and showed her the pictures. She was very excited and said she was going to read up on the breed. I doubt many shelter volunteers have actually had the chance to put their hands on a real Tibetan Terrier, so he was labeled as a miniature poodle/Lhasa cross. But she appreciated the chance to learn more about the breed and possibly understand her dog better.


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## krandall

atsilvers27 said:


> True. Many shelter people may not be familiar with some of the less common breeds. One of my clients, when she first brought her rescue dog in, said the dog was just some kind of mix. I told her, well he really looks like a Tibetan Terrier (I had a few regulars of those) and I opened the dog book and showed her the pictures. She was very excited and said she was going to read up on the breed. I doubt many shelter volunteers have actually had the chance to put their hands on a real Tibetan Terrier, so he was labeled as a miniature poodle/Lhasa cross. But she appreciated the chance to learn more about the breed and possibly understand her dog better.


I agree. My SIL adopted a dog as an "Aussie cross" who I am SURE is at least mostly Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever, if not a pure bred. I have several friends involved with the breed, and they are pretty distictive looking dogs. But they are a rare. Enough breed that few rescue workers have ever seen one. Aussies are a dime a dozen in rescue.


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## atsilvers27

krandall said:


> I agree. My SIL adopted a dog as an "Aussie cross" who I am SURE is at least mostly Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever, if not a pure bred. I have several friends involved with the breed, and they are pretty distictive looking dogs. But they are a rare. Enough breed that few rescue workers have ever seen one. Aussies are a dime a dozen in rescue.


I can also see them being mislabled as a small golden. They have unique coloring and face. It's possible that the dog really is one as they are starting to filter down from Canada. Hey, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...no pun intended!


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## krandall

atsilvers27 said:


> I can also see them being mislabled as a small golden. They have unique coloring and face. It's possible that the dog really is one as they are starting to filter down from Canada. Hey, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...no pun intended!


This is one of the ones with eye rims and nose that match her fur color. (as do her eyes) so she really doesn't look like a Golden. (besides, the head shape is all wrong) She also has the desired Toller "white trim"... White tail tip, toes and chest patch. She's really a stunning dog. Unfortunately, she also screams like a Toller.


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang

I'm a little embarrassed to admit that Pepper's lovely groomer is apparently confused by some breeds as well. When we were there in February she excitedly told me that a black Brussels Griffon won Westminster (our Ume is a Brussels mix). I didn't correct her, but I was a little disappointed that she doesn't know the difference between a Brussels and an Affenpinscher. Ah well, she does a nice job on Pepper.

We had a few people ask us if we had one of "those mini-goldens" in our rescue once Tollers started showing up in the L.A. area. :frusty: I didn't know they scream. What's that sound like?


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## krandall

The Fussy Puppy Gang said:


> I'm a little embarrassed to admit that Pepper's lovely groomer is apparently confused by some breeds as well. When we were there in February she excitedly told me that a black Brussels Griffon won Westminster (our Ume is a Brussels mix). I didn't correct her, but I was a little disappointed that she doesn't know the difference between a Brussels and an Affenpinscher. Ah well, she does a nice job on Pepper.
> 
> We had a few people ask us if we had one of "those mini-goldens" in our rescue once Tollers started showing up in the L.A. area. :frusty: I didn't know they scream. What's that sound like?


When another dog might whine, they let out an ear piercing screech. I don't know how else to describe it. You'll know it when you hear it.  Fortunately, they tend to do it a lot less as they mature, and if they are comfortable in their relationships with their owners and well trained.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid, as they become more popular, we'll see more of them in rescue too. They aren't as high drive as a Border Collie, but they ARE at least as high drive as an Aussie. They are smallish, pretty, and sweet, so I can see them appealing to people who would like a Golden in a smaller package. But they are NOT like Goldens in temperament. They are high-drive working dogs, and without a real job, are likely to drive a "pet" family crazy!


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## atsilvers27

krandall said:


> When another dog might whine, they let out an ear piercing screech. I don't know how else to describe it. You'll know it when you hear it.  Fortunately, they tend to do it a lot less as they mature, and if they are comfortable in their relationships with their owners and well trained.
> 
> Unfortunately, I'm afraid, as they become more popular, we'll see more of them in rescue too. They aren't as high drive as a Border Collie, but they ARE at least as high drive as an Aussie. They are smallish, pretty, and sweet, so I can see them appealing to people who would like a Golden in a smaller package. But they are NOT like Goldens in temperament. They are high-drive working dogs, and without a real job, are likely to drive a "pet" family crazy!


I have observed 4 or 5 of these dogs, all pure bred. Only one of them, the retired show dog, was calm standing on the grooming table. The rest, rescues, were complete messes and difficult for the bather to handle. One shook constantly, one possibly was never brushed because she just did not tolerate the brushing, one was very vocal, and a majority could not be velocity dried. Funny thing is that I've actually been to Nova Scotia 5 times (MIL is from there) and have never seen one there!


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## krandall

atsilvers27 said:


> I have observed 4 or 5 of these dogs, all pure bred. Only one of them, the retired show dog, was calm standing on the grooming table. The rest, rescues, were complete messes and difficult for the bather to handle. One shook constantly, one possibly was never brushed because she just did not tolerate the brushing, one was very vocal, and a majority could not be velocity dried. Funny thing is that I've actually been to Nova Scotia 5 times (MIL is from there) and have never seen one there!


That's what I'm talking about. They can be awesome dogs, but they need an experienced hand and good training, similar to a BC or Aussie.

I've heard, even from Toller breeders, that you definitely don't see these dogs commonly out and about on the street in Nova Scotia. (But then, I live just outside Boston, and don't see many Boston Terriers either, even though that's a MUCH more popular breed ) They actually come from a small area, and I think were originally called Red River Duck Tollers.

The ones I know well are great dogs, but (except for my SIL's rescue) they belong to very experienced trainers, who spend a LOT of time working with them. The two males I know are a bit unreliable in the Obedience ring (in terms of performance, not temperament) while the female is much more biddable. One of the males also does Agility, and that seems right up is alley... something where he can put all that drive to good use.

My SIL is not an experienced trainer, but she is VERY patient and persistent. Ellie took a LONG time to mature, but has eventually calmed down into a nice pet dog. But she is absolutely unreliable off leash.


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## Suzi

One of the things Havanese rescue does and needs volunteers to do, is to go to shelters and educate them as to what a Havanese look like.


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