# Would you give your puppy up?



## KrisE

*THIS THREAD WAS A LEARNING EXPERIENCE... PLEASE READ THE WHOLE THREAD BEFORE JUDGING ANYONE OR ANY DOG*
IF you had a puppy you've bonded with and love, but found it had crooked front and back legs, would you give it back to the breeder?

This is very difficult, but I'm very affraid that my puppy has CD, crooked legs in the breed.

Heart, liver, eye and not to mention arthritis after surgery to correct bowed legs in the front and cow-hocks in the back. The studies indicate the reason havanese and other dogs get crooked legs is because their livers aren't working for proper growth.

So, what would you do if you were me?

I'm so upset


----------



## Havtahava

Would I? If it were for show & breeding, yes. I have done it. I shed a lot of tears and it was a gut-wrenching decision, but I did. I also had my husband talk as my go-between for a couple of days because I was a wreck, but knew it was what I had to do. Fortunately, his breeder was completely supportive and didn't want a dog in the ring that wasn't suited for it. 

I highly recommend that you talk to your breeder about this. I'm sure he wants what is best too. It's his name on the dog.


----------



## ama0722

Kris-
I am so sorry that you found this out. I remember the excitement you were sharing about showing her and breeding her in the future. I think the whether to keep her or give her back is such a personal decision but I just wanted to send hugs to you as I can't imagine going through this. Have you talked to your breeder? I know a lot of contracts replace a puppy but maybe you two can come to an agreement together.

Hugs,
Amanda


----------



## maryam187

Kris, my heart goes out to you, what a very tough decision and experience. I agree you should thoroughly talk to the breeder and try to work something out that's best for all of you incl. the little hairy soul.


----------



## casperkeep

well if i found this out about my puppy i would just keep him or her and love and spoil them for the rest of there life. that is just my opion....i am sure that this is aweful for you and my heart breaks for you. I know you will make the right decision on what you and your breeder decide. Big hugs to you and the cute little puppy!!


----------



## Carefulove

Kris, I don't know what I would do, I just wanted to say how sorry I am


----------



## good buddy

My heart goes out to you! I'm so sorry. This has to be a heartbreak. No one else can possibly make this decision for you. My dogs are pets only. I never intended on showing them for conformation so it would be a different story for me. Just me-I generally walk the path I'm put on and try to find reason in it.


----------



## marb42

Kris, it depends why you bought this pup and whether you can afford any medical costs that might arise to properly care for her if she needs it. I have no knowledge regarding this condition, but it sounds as if it could be costly, so I would find out about that. As long as I could afford all medical costs, I would keep her no matter what, but I bought a dog as a pet rather than to show or breed one. If your intention is to show or breed, you wouldn't be able to. Good luck. I know this is a tough decision. :hug: Gina


----------



## Leslie

Kris~ I'm so sorry. This has to be beyond difficult. To keep her as a pet is one thing but, I know you wanted to show her. My heart goes out to you :hug:


----------



## Alexa

I am so sorry to hear this, it's just heartbreaking. I honestly can't tell you what I'd do....but the longer you wait, the harder it will be to make the decision, that's for sure...now that I've had Marley for 1.5 years there would be no way I'd give him up for anything!!

In re-reading parts of the other thread, it seems like you have always been looking for a show dog and are interested in breeding yourself, so it's a little different than if you were just dealing with a pet Hav. 

Showing/breeding clearly would not be an option with this condition and it would affect other decisions...would you get another Hav in addition and still be able to give Coco the attention needed when you start showing and breeding the other dog? Or would it change your outlook completely when it comes to showing etc. 

Can you tell us how you found this out just now? Did the breeder not check for CD and soap Coco down before you got her? It doesn't help to blame anyone for anything, the situation is rough one way or other, it just seems like that would be a routine check a good breeder would do for any dog, and most definitely for a show/breeding potential. 
Or is this a condition that sometimes develops later and can't always be detected at the early stage? 

There are a few members here that have Havs with CD, I hope they will chime in to talk about their experience.

My thoughts are with you, and I am sending lots of hugs, I can't even imagine how awful you feel. 



Alexa


----------



## Laurief

What a sad thing for you to have to go through!! I am so sorry for your struggles with this! I would keep the dog, but that is me. Once I have bonded I would have a hard time giving it back. I am sure you will make the right decision for you and your family.


----------



## mellowbo

Oh, my heart also goes out to you! Personally I would not be able to part with the dog if we had bonded. Is it possible to work something out with the breeder to get another one in addition to Coco? However, naturally not from the same breeding.
I hear your concern about liver problems, etc. I'm not so sure they are really connected to CD or not. I've heard both sides to that story. 
I'm so sorry!
Carole


----------



## SMARTY

I know this is a very sad situation for you. I agree with Kimberly, if this was to be a show/breeding dog or if there are health issue you do not want to contend with, then have the breeder take the dog back. I had to do this once with a Boxer bitch that just did not have a head piece that she should and I had limitation on the number of animals I could keep. It is very hard to make this kind of decision.
Good Luck.


----------



## Lina

Oh no, Kris. I'm so sorry about this! It would break my hear to give a pup back that I had bonded with so much, but then again my pups are pets, not show dogs and if I was going to show and breed, I think I would have the breeder take her back. I do think the best thing is for you to get in touch with the breeder and work something out that is satisfactory to all. Good luck with this tough decision!


----------



## DAJsMom

If it were just concerns about the health of the puppy, I would keep the puppy. She may not have the other health issues that are brought up as possibilities in articles. She could turn out to be healthy, but with bad conformation. Obviously you can't show or breed her though, and if you bought her as a show/breeding prospect, then there is that to consider as well. I think it's better that the problem showed up early rather than not passing health tests at age two after all the time and expense has been put into her development. I would have an honest talk with the breeder and take a little time to think over all the angles, then make the best decision you can for the puppy and for yourself. Maybe this girl's future is to make someone else a great pet, or maybe she needs to stay with you, just not in the role you had originally planned for her.


----------



## KrisE

The issue is, do I let a breeder get away with misrepresentation? 

I have a call into a vet to determine what could/might/is wrong other than her legs. But, many issues won't show up til she's well into her second year of life. 

I need to find out if Jerry has brought BonBon into an ortho to determine the malady or a vet to check for any problems as well.

I wasn't given an option for a partial refund and I can't afforad another 3,000 to buy a show/breed dog at this time.


----------



## luv3havs

I agree with Lina.
Most of us purchased our Havs as pets. You bought this pup to show. As sad as it is to have to return the puppy, it may be for the best. 
You have my hugs and support. I am so sorry this has happened to you.
Hope things work out to your satisfaction with the breeder.


----------



## mellowbo

Shelly, no I don't think you should let the breeder get away with misrepresentation. If he knew you were buying this puppy for show/breeding he certainly should have not sold this dog to you. He should have noticed the legs.
Carole


----------



## maryam187

Kris, have you talked to your breeder about this yet? What were his thoughts about this? If you haven't talked to him, then this is the first thing I would do. 

I find it understandable that you don't want to pay for an additional dog and was wondering if the breeder is willing to work with you in that regard.


----------



## Beamer

How long have you had her for? Did your breeder offer to take her back for a full refund? or anly partial? If you bought her for the ring and breeding, then for sure you might want to consider getting a replacement (as crappy as that sounds)... Or ask for a full refund and seek out another breeder that might be a bit more trustworthy.

Ryan


----------



## lfung5

I am sorry to hear this. This is a hard decision but if you desire to show, you should consider returning the pup. As hard as it may be, that is your only choice if you want to show. I just hope Jerry will place Coco in a good home.
I would be so angry at him. He should have known the pup had Cd and should not have sold him but placed him. I thought breeders were suppose to evaluate the pups they sell to a show home. It would be odd that he didn't know. He should replace the pup or give you your money back should Coco need surgery. Best of luck with your decision.


----------



## Havtahava

Kris, I have to publicly tell you that I think it is a bad idea to post photos and the breeder's name without working through things with him.


----------



## ama0722

Kris- I would agree with Kimberly on this. I would call the breeder immediately and send the pics to him as well. While if you need a sounding board, you probably don't want it where everyone can read everything you post.


----------



## Kathy

KrisE said:


> The issue is, do I let a breeder get away with misrepresentation?
> 
> I have a call into a vet to determine what could/might/is wrong other than her legs. But, many issues won't show up til she's well into her second year of life.
> 
> I need to find out if Jerry has brought BonBon into an ortho to determine the malady or a vet to check for any problems as well.
> 
> I wasn't given an option for a partial refund and I can't afforad another 3,000 to buy a show/breed dog at this time.


It sounds like you have not had her xrayed? If not, then that is the first appointment I think you should be making. Making a decision without complete medical facts isn't fair to you or the breeder or the dog.

Also, just because a dog has a bone issue doesn't mean it will have other health problems. The "study" that was done was not completed and only certain dogs used for that study.

Why are you thinking you were given wrong information or misrepresented from your breeder? A puppy won't always show any signs at all of bone defects until they are older.

I know you are disappointed, hurt and more, but start first with seeing a specialist and find out exactly what is wrong.


----------



## Kathy

mellowbo said:


> He should have noticed the legs.
> Carole


Not always noticed as a puppy that anything is wrong. True CD typically appears AFTER the growth plates have closed too early, but it is rare for growth plates to close in a puppy under 3 months of age.


----------



## Scooter's Family

So sorry for you Kris, I hope this works out well for you and the puppy.


----------



## SMARTY

KrisE said:


> The issue is, do I let a breeder get away with misrepresentation?
> 
> I have a call into a vet to determine what could/might/is wrong other than her legs. But, many issues won't show up til she's well into her second year of life.
> 
> I need to find out if Jerry has brought BonBon into an ortho to determine the malady or a vet to check for any problems as well.
> 
> I wasn't given an option for a partial refund and I can't afforad another 3,000 to buy a show/breed dog at this time.


Kris have you taked to the breeder? Kimberly is right about trying to work it out. I went back to review your original post and pictures, it appears her right foot has turned out even before you got her.

This may offend some of our members but our animal should be for our pleasure. They should make us happy to see them and take care of them. Why would you keep an animal that is not what you want and know you may have heart ache after heart ache with their medical problems? This very thing is the reason we are encouraged to buy from a reputable breeder. You do the research and pay the price so this professional will guide you and protect you from having this type of situation. It is hard to give up any animal we are attached to, but sometime it is the best thing for us.

Please don't think I am so hard hearted; we have a Jack Russell terrier that looks just like your pictures, she is well into old age and has had a very good life irritating me. We have 2 older barn cats that as kittens were to be taken to the pound. My 27 year old horse was too much for his original family to handle, he became the best trail I have ever ridden. All these were a form of a rescue and all have been a great addition to our lives.


----------



## Petaluna

Oh, I was so disappointed with you to read this thread! I'm sure you're just sick over it. 

One different viewpoint just to toss out there....something I'm thinking about a lot lately in these uncertain economic times in particular....I often feel like things happen for a reason, even though I typically resist what I don't want and make it much harder on myself emotionally. You can get a really upsetting curve ball which feels awful, and it can turn out to be a positive thing in your life, even though you can't possibly see that when you are in the middle of it. 

I'm not sure what I would do either, since I would only want her as a pet, it probably would depend on how much I'd bonded with her. It's possible that even though it's not what you planned, if you kept her, she could turn out to be the love of your life and bring a lot of joy you can't anticipate now, like you might look back and can't imagine your life without her, despite the change in goals for her. 

On the flip side, maybe she's meant to be with another family, or your perfect dog is right around the corner, which you won't find unless you give her up. If it were me and I loved her, I'd probably feel committed and keep her, but I have no intentions of showing, so I'm not in your shoes. 

I think I would sit with it for a little while after discussing my options with the breeder, try to quiet your mind and fears about it and see what your heart tells you, if that makes sense. 

Whatever you decide, it will be the right decision.


----------



## KrisE

I'd already talked to Jerry. I had to wet her down twice and get an opinion from a respected breeder jerry knows and he still was acting like there was no problem with breeding her and keeping her. 

He's putting her up on puppyfind and reimbursing me if and when she sells. He was aware she had a bad front when he sold her to me. He told me she'd probably grow out of it. He didn't tell me her mother had and still has a bad front as a breeder. This indicates to me deception. 

Through my good recomendation he's sold 3 puppies since I've know him through this forum and others I've met in looking for a good show dog. Now that I truly believe he deceived me and has me crying for 3 days I really don't care if he knows I'm sharing my experience with others. 

Maybe someone else won't be as trusting of a "well known" breeder and go through the heartache I've been going through.

I honeslty don't believe he has any intentions of giving my money back. How could I believe he'd do the right thing when I have the experience I have already with these dealings. 

If you want to take this discussion down, that's fine by me. I understand completely. He's more than welcome to come on here and tell me why he didn't disclose the issues with her mother before selling Coco to me and why he thought signs of a bad front would self-correct after he's seen her own mother with the same condition not self correct. 

I've said my peace. If he doesn't pay me my money back or refund me enough to equal what should be a pet price, I'll post these photos and my story on every yahoo forum i belong to. 

Bad breeders and bad behavior deserves to be told for the benefit of unsuspecting buyers.


----------



## luv3havs

Kris,
You can vent here all you want.
We shared your excitement and anticipation with you while you were waiting for your puppy.
We were so happy when you got her and we all admired her pictures etc.
We feel your pain.

If this is a reputable breeder, he will do the right thing. You were clear from the beginning, that you wanted a dog to show and possibly breed.

From being on this forum for over a year, I feel that most of the breeders who are "regulars" on this forum would take the dog back and make things right for you.


----------



## luv3havs

Just read your last post.
Sorry he has taken this stance.
There must be something else you can do???


----------



## Julie

I'm really really sorry about your situation Kris. My heart breaks for you.

I need to stay out of this because I have no experience with this type of situation myself.

All I can say however,is do what is best FOR YOU dear. Do what is BEST FOR YOU. No one can judge you,and no one should....only you can decide.:grouphug: We will be here to help you any way we can.:grouphug:


----------



## Jill in Mich

Kris, 

I'm sorry you're going through this. If it had been my intention to breed and show, and I couldn't afford two dogs, I would return the dog - as difficult as that decision would be. I would try to look at it as part of my learning experience in the breeding/showing world - could I make the really tough decisions when necessary or was I better as a pet owner? I'm not saying one way or the other is right/wrong.

I know you said you don't care if the breeder saw what you've written, but it would probably be a good idea to think about what you're posting from a legal standpoint. Is there anything you've posted now (or in the future) that could hurt you down the road if this becomes very contentious?


----------



## Kathy

KrisE said:


> I'd already talked to Jerry. I had to wet her down twice and get an opinion from a respected breeder jerry knows and he still was acting like there was no problem with breeding her and keeping her.
> 
> He's putting her up on puppyfind and reimbursing me if and when she sells. He was aware she had a bad front when he sold her to me. He told me she'd probably grow out of it. He didn't tell me her mother had and still has a bad front as a breeder. This indicates to me deception.


I am sorry you are having to go through this. I hope it all can be resolved without further heartache for you.


----------



## maryam187

Kris, what we were all trying to figure out, is if you had already talked to the breeder and had tried to work things out, before we all publicly make bad assumptions about him. No one wanted you not to feel free to complain. We just tried to be fair towards the breeder as well. However, after reading your last post, it really seems like he knowingly put you in this situation, which really isn't right.


----------



## ama0722

Kris- I thought the same thing- sorry. I thought you hadn't talked to your breeder yet and just wanted you to do that first  I am so sorry you got that type of response.

I agree with Sandy on this though. I don't know I would keep a puppy with health conditions that may require expensive surgery and limited mobility especially if my original thought was I wanted to show and breed. I think that is such a personal decision and I would never judge a person either way.


----------



## Alexa

Kris, this really makes me sad to find out that he did know that something was not right and to misrepresent the condition to you. I completely understand how upset you are, I would be, too. It brings tears to my eyes to read the other thread where you talk about how much you have bonded with this little darling and it must just tear you up to have to think of what the right thing is to do. 

For him to put you into this position and now indicating that your beloved puppy will end up on puppyfind is just cruel. 

Alexa


----------



## KrisE

I understand the legal ramifications and will continue to be aware of my legal right to tell the truth for the benefit of others. Slander only holds when an untruth is told. 

I came to tell this story here because I feel responsible for at least one sale made to a pet owner based upon my high regard of him at the time. He is very helpful and nice on the phone. This is why I can't believe I'm in this prediciment. I really don't think he meant to create such a dilema, but he did. 

I might want to breed, but this doesn't mean I don't love coco with all my heart. But, if I was a breeder and had someone such as myself (inexperienced looking for a mentor/co-owner to learn how to show and breed from), I certainly wouldn't start them off this way. My fear is if coco is breeder/show quality, what is pet quality. Scary 

Do a search and you'll see another lady had issues. I don't know to what extent, but I'll find out soon I'm sure. 

I have every right to state the facts and stipulate that if things aren't set right in a timely manner, I will inform everyone I can to avoid anyone else going through what I am.


----------



## lfung5

KrisE said:


> I'd already talked to Jerry. I had to wet her down twice and get an opinion from a respected breeder jerry knows and he still was acting like there was no problem with breeding her and keeping her.
> 
> He's putting her up on puppyfind and reimbursing me if and when she sells. He was aware she had a bad front when he sold her to me. He told me she'd probably grow out of it. He didn't tell me her mother had and still has a bad front as a breeder. This indicates to me deception.
> 
> Through my good recomendation he's sold 3 puppies since I've know him through this forum and others I've met in looking for a good show dog. Now that I truly believe he deceived me and has me crying for 3 days I really don't care if he knows I'm sharing my experience with others.
> 
> Maybe someone else won't be as trusting of a "well known" breeder and go through the heartache I've been going through.
> 
> I honeslty don't believe he has any intentions of giving my money back. How could I believe he'd do the right thing when I have the experience I have already with these dealings.
> 
> If you want to take this discussion down, that's fine by me. I understand completely. He's more than welcome to come on here and tell me why he didn't disclose the issues with her mother before selling Coco to me and why he thought signs of a bad front would self-correct after he's seen her own mother with the same condition not self correct.
> 
> I've said my peace. If he doesn't pay me my money back or refund me enough to equal what should be a pet price, I'll post these photos and my story on every yahoo forum i belong to.
> 
> Bad breeders and bad behavior deserves to be told for the benefit of unsuspecting buyers.


I have to agree with you.


----------



## SMARTY

Kris, did you get a written guarantee?


----------



## SMARTY

Do a search and you'll see another lady had issues. I don't know to what extent, but I'll find out soon I'm sure. 

?? what search?


----------



## KrisE

*yes, lifetime guarantee*



SMARTY said:


> Kris, did you get a written guarantee?


Against defects. I'm sure jerry sees this totally different. I think that call that kennel blindless, right?


----------



## KrisE

*another*



SMARTY said:


> Do a search and you'll see another lady had issues. I don't know to what extent, but I'll find out soon I'm sure.
> 
> ?? what search?


It will be up to her if she wants to say anything.


----------



## SMARTY

Not what I call kennel blindness, my kids are prettier than your kids, that is what I call kennel blindness.

What does he call a defect in the contract? 

One time I was at a show and a lady had a sign that was on both sides of this rather bad boxer and the sign said.....I am a show dog just ask ______. She is my breeder. 
Another person entered a set of large shows with a very pet quality dog. At every chance they were saying their dogs kennel name very loud or mentioning their breeder.

In both cases the breeders "did what was right".....One of these two is still showing today and has finished many champions. We did not have the internet then so word of mouth was your best or worse advertisement.


----------



## tikaboo

*I am so sorry for your pain*

My heart goes out to you and your family. My hope and prayer is that the breeder will do the right thing. 
What did the life time guarantee cover? Will he be paying the medical bills for the defective puppy if you decide to keep it? Did it stipulate a full refund? Can you Ask for the full refund and then offer to buy your puppy back at a greatly reduced cost? Surely he cant be asking that much for a puppy with the problems this one has? Would he sell this dog again, not disclosing the current medical problems to the new unsuspecting owner? Anyone in there right mind wanting even a pet/companion Havanese would not knowingly buy a animal that will be a constant drain on them financially in this economy. 
If you keep getting stone walled I would talk to a lawyer asap. This breeder should be bending over backwards to compensate you and save his "good name" and prevent further ramifications for his deception. Not only are you out the money for the purchase price for this dog but you are out future earning potential this dog had in the puppies you would have sold. Something to think about.

Here is an exerpt from an article written by Veterinary Genetic Services. The article was in regard to dobermans but the warning is still true.
_"Be careful how you represent the genetic background of the dogs you sell. The advances in genetic research are widely publicized and the puppy-buying public will take advantage of that information. Lawyers know this. The great benefits derived from the human-animal bond are well documented in human medical literature. Misrepresentation of genetic health will result in ever-increasing settlements for human pain and suffering, making that $1000 puppy worth millions when it succumbs to genetically defective disease."
2009 VetGen "_http://www.vetgencom/canine-ref-bleeding.html


----------



## KrisE

*wow very informative and thank you.... my vet just called Guess What?*

We have a law here in Minnesota. It's called the puppy lemon law. He can be held responsible for any vet bills do to a genetic defect. :whoo:

I know Jerry's pet price is 1500, so I'm going to talk to him about refunding me 1300.

My vet looked at Coco for me last time I was in for her third set of shots and she doesn't feel coco has CD. She said coco might just be growing oddly and to take this more seriously at 6 months. She'll never be a breed dog or show dog though. But, at least she won't be a heartache hopefully.

My husband cried last night when I told him Jerry wanted us to send her back for him to sell then refund. He doesn't tear up too often.

Oh and BTW, my vet says do NOT ever send a dog for a refund at a later date upon replacement... Refunds are always given then the dog is sent if there are issues.

I'm going to go look up this lemon law now.



tikaboo said:


> My heart goes out to you and your family. My hope and prayer is that the breeder will do the right thing.
> What did the life time guarantee cover? Will he be paying the medical bills for the defective puppy if you decide to keep it? Did it stipulate a full refund? Can you Ask for the full refund and then offer to buy your puppy back at a greatly reduced cost? Surely he cant be asking that much for a puppy with the problems this one has? Would he sell this dog again, not disclosing the current medical problems to the new unsuspecting owner? Anyone in there right mind wanting even a pet/companion Havanese would not knowingly buy a animal that will be a constant drain on them financially in this economy.
> If you keep getting stone walled I would talk to a lawyer asap. This breeder should be bending over backwards to compensate you and save his "good name" and prevent further ramifications for his deception. Not only are you out the money for the purchase price for this dog but you are out future earning potential this dog had in the puppies you would have sold. Something to think about.
> 
> Here is an exerpt from an article written by Veterinary Genetic Services. The article was in regard to dobermans but the warning is still true.
> _"Be careful how you represent the genetic background of the dogs you sell. The advances in genetic research are widely publicized and the puppy-buying public will take advantage of that information. Lawyers know this. The great benefits derived from the human-animal bond are well documented in human medical literature. Misrepresentation of genetic health will result in ever-increasing settlements for human pain and suffering, making that $1000 puppy worth millions when it succumbs to genetically defective disease."
> 2009 VetGen "_http://www.vetgencom/canine-ref-bleeding.html


----------



## Petaluna

does this mean you are thinking of keeping her? I can't stop watching this thread, what a story.... I hope it all works out for you.


----------



## Beamer

Is this the Jerry 'Havanique Breeder'? the one who kind of writes weird? (you all know what I mean... lol)

Ryan


----------



## lfung5

Why not ask for the full amount back?
When I found out Bella needed 4000- in surgeries, her breeder offer to exchange the pup or refund the FULL amount. I took the money and put it towards her surgeries.


----------



## KrisE

I cry every time I look at her and think I have to send her back. The only way I'd send her back is if I thought she was going to have unsurmountable vet and ortho bills, which I can't afford nor should have to afford. 
The lemon laws are pretty clear. If a puppy has hereditary defects the breeder has to refund the price and pay vet bills and/or pay vet bills and replace the defective puppy.


----------



## PepperToast

Oh Kris! This is awful but I am glad you got good news from the vet and the that the law is on your side. 

Fortunately it looks like Coco does not have any other genetic flaws but you must be horribly disappointed that your path to showing etc has been cut off with beautiful Coco. 

Surely your breeder will agree to a pet price instead (the price still seems very very steep to me for a pet with known leg flaws). 

I just feel so bad that this has all gone down. It would feel very awful to have recommended someone so highly and then to find out you were inadvertently recommending a breeder with questionable practices. 

If you are only able to have one dog at this time, your decision would be horribly hard. I really don't know what I would do but I will just tell this, if you do decide to send Coco back and get another dog, while she will always be so special to you, you almost certainly will be able to love another dog just as much but maybe in a different way. I think foster people will agree with this. They are able to fall in love with all (or most!) of the dogs they rescue in a genuine way. 

:hug:

Meeka


----------



## Missy

Oh my heart goes out to you. I would try my best to convince jerry to refund the difference between pet and breed dog. I can only imagine how ambiguous you must feel. I know you wanted a show/breeeder dog...and yet you love your little girl. I really hope it all works out for you.


----------



## KrisE

lfung5 said:


> Why not ask for the full amount back?
> When I found out Bella needed 4000- in surgeries, her breeder offer to exchange the pup or refund the FULL amount. I took the money and put it towards her surgeries.


That was more than fair to offer and what I'd expected as well. Giving me a partial refund to a pet price so I could save up for a show dog would be fair.

He's going to call me tonight. I'll propose this to him and see what he says.


----------



## SMARTY

Does the lemon law apply to an out of state sale? Did you not pick her up in DC or am I thinking about someone else?


----------



## KrisE

SMARTY said:


> Does the lemon law apply to an out of state sale? Did you not pick her up in DC or am I thinking about someone else?


You're right, I did think of that. It brings it from state lemon law to federal wire fraud because I paid with paypal and bought over state lines.

I stopped with the lemon law because I think with pressure to do the right thing he'll just make things right and move on.


----------



## KrisE

I don't know if it isn't to my best interst to take this thread down? I vented and appreciate all the support but I might have made a mistake in that I still want this to work out and based on some information given to me backchannel, it might be a mistake to anger him too much before this is resolved.


----------



## rdanielle

Beamer said:


> Is this the Jerry 'Havanique Breeder'? the one who kind of writes weird? (you all know what I mean... lol)
> 
> Ryan


Glad I'm not the only one who thought that. LOL, couldn't help but laugh.

KrisE,
So, sorry to hear about your situation. I think its horrible that someone who was to be supposed to be your mentor would do this to you.. I could see this to happening more to someone that a breeder wasn't to be mentoring. Crazy. You're very fortunate to live in a state that has a puppy lemon law. Its a heartbreaking situation I hope that everything works out..


----------



## snfager

Would it be possible for you to make a deal with the breeder .......
You would keep this dog, have her spayed, love her and care for her "for as long as you both shall live". However, since she is unfit for breeding or showing, which is what you got her for, the breeder will provide you another puppy at no cost to you.


----------



## Amy R.

Hi Kris~~this is a tough call. I assume you've had your dog for several months. For me it would depend upon what this would portend medically (and expense wise) for the future, and also the expectations the breeder had given you, i.e. to breed/show this dog. And then, of course, how much you love this dog.

I would talk to the breeder, absolutely. If you were misled, at least they should make an adjustment re what you paid for him, to cover possible future medical bills.

I discovered Biscuit has moderate CD in his front only around the time he was one~~one leg is crooked, he's asymmetrical in front. He looks like one of the worst examples in the Arizona conundrum photos, long, low, taller back legs, large head. I find it hilarious. He 's built like an old Studebaker car. But I wouldn't trade him for all the perfectly conformed dogs in the world. He's my soulmate. He's also healthy and sound so far. DH and I couldn't live without him.


----------



## Scooter's Family

I'd keep her as a pet and ask for a FULL refund, he didn't fulfill his end of the contract. I'm so sorry for you and your husband Kris, I can't imagine thinking I'd have to give up one of my furbabies. I pray that you get a satisfactory settlement arranged with him.


----------



## KrisE

it's up to him. I'm to talk to him tonight. 

he's aware of this thread and pretty hurt by some of the comments. 

I'm not attacking his character, I think he wished for something that didn't happen and left out some information/disclosure he probably wished he hadn't. He made a mistake as we all do and hopefully will learn from this as much as I have. 

I made a mistake by making this public and was warned. My need to vent was greater than my need to have good judgement and I'm sorry to Jerry for this.


----------



## Poornima

Kris, I am so sorry that you and your DH are in such a heart breaking situation. 

You have to make the decision that is best for you. I pray that the situation is resolved to your satisfaction.


----------



## SMARTY

Hopefully the breeder will be as good as his word and all will work out. Good luck this evening.


----------



## LuvCicero

Bless your heart. I can't say what I would do, but I know I would be upset if I had bought a "show" puppy that had your problems. I think you just have to do what your heart and head tell you is the best thing for you and you have my support on whatever decision you make.


----------



## ivyagogo

It sounds to me that the best solution would be to get a partial refund and keep Coco. Coco is obviously more than a show dog/breed dog to you and your family. Perhaps you can get another dog in the future to show/breed.

I hope Jerry works with you. He will if he does what's right.


----------



## pjewel

When I first read this there was no question in my mind that I would keep my dog. Once you fall in love with them, they're family and it would be unthinkable for me to return one of mine. I do agree with you, it would be absolutely fair to refund you the difference between a pet and a show puppy. Hope it goes well for you and Coco. Give her an extra hug from me and the boys.


----------



## Evye's Mom

I can't tell you what to do or what to feel. All I know, I could discover my 2 had 2 brains, no liver and a diseased pancreas...I could not give them up for anything. We do our research for an excellent breeder with an excellent health guarantee but when push comes to shove, could we exucute it. I can't speak for any one but myself.....no way. I can offer you my support and my prayers that things turn out the way you need and want them to. Sending big hugs.


----------



## LynneOvington

*Lemonade from Lemons*

What a sad situation! It can't think of any way to make this a win-win, lemons to lemonade solution that doesn't require sacrifice from both parties. Trying to look at both sides of the deal, it seems that the breeder only wins if he protects his business integrity by refunding your purchase price in full, and honors his love of his dogs by ensuring that this puppy has a good home. It would be hard to imagine a better home with more love than the one you have provided. It's hard to find a "win" for you, in that you still might face future medical expenses outside of your budget and your search for a worthy dog to breed and show has been delayed. But at least you would have your money back and the opportunity to pursue your breeding plans again. Sounds like taking another dog from the same breeder might not be good for either of you. Hopefully he would have tax write-off benefits by "gifting" you the dog and taking the loss on his 2009 return. If that's possible it would reduce his financial hit. Here's hoping you find some sugar to add to the lemon juice! Good luck to both of you in resolving this emotionally charged issue.


----------



## lfung5

Oh, I see. Yes, if you keep Coco, I hope he will give you the difference between a pet and show pup. Good luck!


----------



## karlabythec

It seems to me him refunding you the difference between a show quality and pet quality puppy would be the best option here. 

I can tell you all love Coco...you have bonded and she is your baby. If he does this, maybe you can put that difference away for a future show quality puppy from a breeder you have a little more confidence in to help you along the way with regard to showing.


----------



## mellowbo

If you had been given full disclosure at the time of purchase you would have not purchased Coco as a potential show dog. I think you need to be made "whole". If you want to keep Coco as a pet then you should pay pet price. That just seems fair. 
I hope you and your breeder can make peace and no one is hurt by this. It is a lesson well learned, but the hard way.
Carole


----------



## SMARTY

LynneOvington said:


> What a sad situation! It can't think of any way to make this a win-win, lemons to lemonade solution that doesn't require sacrifice from both parties. Trying to look at both sides of the deal, it seems that the breeder only wins if he protects his business integrity by refunding your purchase price in full, and honors his love of his dogs by ensuring that this puppy has a good home. It would be hard to imagine a better home with more love than the one you have provided. It's hard to find a "win" for you, in that you still might face future medical expenses outside of your budget and your search for a worthy dog to breed and show has been delayed. But at least you would have your money back and the opportunity to pursue your breeding plans again. Sounds like taking another dog from the same breeder might not be good for either of you. Hopefully he would have tax write-off benefits by "gifting" you the dog and taking the loss on his 2009 return. If that's possible it would reduce his financial hit. Here's hoping you find some sugar to add to the lemon juice! Good luck to both of you in resolving this emotionally charged issue.


That is Brilliant.:whoo:


----------



## JASHavanese

KrisE said:


> So, what would you do if you were me?


I'd read my contract, xray the legs, talk calmly to the breeder, and pray for a good outcome if in fact any outcome can be a good one.
I don't know who the parents are or I'd look it up myself. What does offa.org say about them? It's not going to tell you if they have straight legs but will show you if there are other health problems. That's the breeder in me talking since we've been given theories with no concrete proof. Others with bowed legs, do the parents have health problems that show on OFA? I'm not asking for names of the breeders or their lines, just about health issues and curved legs.
We send our very best to you :hug:


----------



## tikaboo

*I guess I dont understand why....*

I guess I don't understand why.... she should be penalized for his deception and need to make the sacrifice he should be making. She should not be paying the full price he charges for a "healthy pet Havanese puppy" and in cure medical expenses too? Does anyone else see how crazy that sounds...... I my opinion if she is willing to keep a puppy that needs the kind of medical expenses this one will, he the breeder, should be thankful she is willing to keep the puppy and love it and give it a forever home in spite of its future medical expenses and should not be charging anything let alone the full healthy puppy price. I am curious what his new add for the puppy looks like. In order that the lemon law not be in effect for the new owner, he would need to disclose the health concerns and potential cost of fixing this puppy's existing problems. I would think that would still be more expensive than the original price of the puppy when all is said and done? He should give her a full refund and be thankful she is willing to keep a dog that will need this kind of medical treatment. I hope he will think more about the puppy instead of his wallet in this situation.


----------



## mellowbo

tikaboo said:


> I guess I don't understand why.... she should be penalized for his deception and need to make the sacrifice he should be making. She should not be paying the full price he charges for a "healthy pet Havanese puppy" and in cure medical expenses too? Does anyone else see how crazy that sounds...... I my opinion if she is willing to keep a puppy that needs the kind of medical expenses this one will, he the breeder, should be thankful she is willing to keep the puppy and love it and give it a forever home in spite of its future medical expenses and should not be charging anything let alone the full healthy puppy price. I am curious what his new add for the puppy looks like. In order that the lemon law not be in effect for the new owner, he would need to disclose the health concerns and potential cost of fixing this puppy's existing problems. I would think that would still be more expensive than the original price of the puppy when all is said and done? He should give her a full refund and be thankful she is willing to keep a dog that will need this kind of medical treatment. I hope he will think more about the puppy instead of his wallet in this situation.


I would agree however in this case has it been established that this puppy will need further medical attention due to bowed legs? Perhaps many pet puppies have bowed legs and that is one of the reason they are pet and not show. 
However the issue is that Shelly wanted a show dog and maybe doesn't want two? 
I would think the breeder wouldn't breed the effected sire/dam again though!
Carole :suspicious:


----------



## lfung5

I don't think having CD necessarily means Coco will have other medical issue. On the other hand, just because a pup has straight legs, does not mean it will stay healthy. Bella had a liver shunt and has straight legs. I think there's a lot more to it.


----------



## KrisE

mellowbo said:


> I would agree however in this case has it been established that this puppy will need further medical attention due to bowed legs? Perhaps many pet puppies have bowed legs and that is one of the reason they are pet and not show.
> However the issue is that Shelly wanted a show dog and maybe doesn't want two?
> I would think the breeder wouldn't breed the effected sire/dam again though!
> Carole :suspicious:


I was going to keep coco, breed her and keep the best of the litter hopefully. I wanted 2 girls and then purchase a stud or stud them out.

Now, I'm looking at having coco as a pet and have one I breed. I don't know if I'm interested yet in having 3, but who knows.

I have an appointment next Tuesday at the U with an Ortho Surgeon. They are very good and will know where this is headed right away and determine if she's affected or not. I want to keep hoping that my vet is right and that she's going to be fine with a little bit of a bow to her legs, but as puppies grow things just get pronounced, not go away.

I'm willing to pay the 600 to get her xrayed and examined with an outcome.

And yes, I do think I would provide the best home for Coco. There's nothing I wouldn't do for her, but I don't like being put in this situation.


----------



## KrisE

I was told and keep being told that there have never been any problems with his dogs. I asked for the information, testing and was told this. I asked for a soaked down puppy, but I think he honestly didn't hear my requests. He seems busy running around for his dogs and his partners pekenese. 
He sent me pictures each week which was wonderful.

There's never a perfect dog. But, I was once told all his dogs are healthy and never had problems then I find out BonBon had a crooked leg and from memory some other issue once was told to me during an offhand comment in conversation.

Again, it came down to me trusting because I thought I was entering into a co-ownership to breed and show. If I didn't trust him, I wouldn't have entered into this agreement in the first place. I guess we call that kennel blind trust LOL:whoo:



JASHavanese said:


> I'd read my contract, xray the legs, talk calmly to the breeder, and pray for a good outcome if in fact any outcome can be a good one.
> I don't know who the parents are or I'd look it up myself. What does offa.org say about them? It's not going to tell you if they have straight legs but will show you if there are other health problems. That's the breeder in me talking since we've been given theories with no concrete proof. Others with bowed legs, do the parents have health problems that show on OFA? I'm not asking for names of the breeders or their lines, just about health issues and curved legs.
> We send our very best to you :hug:


----------



## mellowbo

KrisE said:


> but I don't like being put in this situation.


And you are right! I would be mad as hell. 
I know you will do the right thing, whatever that is.
But just know that your feelings are just and validated!!


----------



## tikaboo

*this is unconscionable.....*

[/QUOTE]Perhaps many pet puppies have bowed legs and that is one of the reason they are pet and not show.


> Is a puppy not meeting standards and there for a pet quality dog the same thing as breeding nonstandard dogs with defects as a quality breeding dogs and pretending you dont know? Then selling the offspring as breeding, show quality dogs, this is unconscionable in my opinion. Especially at $3000 which is what she said she paid if I'm not mistaking.


----------



## maryam187

At this point I think we should all just wait and see what her breeder tells her tonight. From what Kris is saying he seems to be a person who's willing to communicate, so let's give this man a chance to work it out.


----------



## micki2much

Ok..I have been on this topic all day (yes, I was at the office) BUT I am nooo expert...I have me boys as pets only (or they have me as their pets???) but I'm going to ad my 2 cents for what it's worth...I think you are being MORE than reasonable when asking for the difference between pet and show/breed quality. You entered into an agreement with him by being "co-owner" for show/breed, so does he not have some responsibility when it comes to NOT able to show or breed????????????? I own my business with a PARTNER, we would SHARE financial responsibility if there was a problem within our corporation. 
Kris - all I can say is that I am so sorry for what you are going through to be put into this emotional battle must be hell - Hugs to you and DH


----------



## Beamer

Hopefully she gets her money back AND/OR does not get guilted emotionally into doing something she does not want to do.......\

Ryan


----------



## ama0722

Kris- I would definitely talk to your breeder first and then get her to a vet for xrays. Did you verify the health records on both parents of your puppy before you got her?


----------



## KrisE

ama0722 said:


> Kris- I would definitely talk to your breeder first and then get her to a vet for xrays. Did you verify the health records on both parents of your puppy before you got her?


No, I asked for them and was told verbally they had no issues. I'm from Minnesota, we're passive aggressive people. IT's hard to push something, but when we're pushed over the edge, watch out.


----------



## Beamer

So, did you speak to your breeder yet?

Ryan


----------



## KrisE

Ok I talked to Jerry. I'm going to take her in on Tuesday and we'll figure out from there. BonBon the mother has one turning of the elbow and this was his first trial breeding with her. He's not going to breed her into his line again. 

I have alot to learn about breeding. But, the gist of it is you take a dog you like alot of things about and breed it to another dog that can bring in other nice traits to your breeding program. Breeding out of your line sometimes doesn't work, sometimes it does, but is necessary. I'm certainly not an expert in this. Because this was a trial breeding, there's no telling til Tuesday what is causing her bowed legs and if it will correct with time. He thinks her shoulders might be a little wide causing this. We'll see

Jerry was more than kind considering my imature actions today. He still wants to work with me til we know what the problems are. There's also a chance that I can correct this with a change in her diet. She's still young and if she doesn't have CD then it's just a matter of uneven growth that needs to be corrected with diet or other means.

I've asked this thread be taken down, hopefully this will end now. I'm embarassed I made this public while the findings were still premature. I'm not usually this emotional.


----------



## mikeb

I'm sorry for everything you went thru. Hopefully all will work out for the best. Dont be embarassed in any way. This is a good place to vent a bit when the need arises. This has been very stressful for you as it would be for anyone. Especially us dog lovers. Dont' worry and go pet your puppy... they are good for your emotional health heh.


----------



## Petaluna

well, speaking as an impulsive, tightly wound worry-wort who often opens her big mouth prematurely, I can relate. No judgment here, I would have freaked out too if I soaped her down and saw those legs, particularly if I had the intention of showing. I am trying to learn to keep a lid on it when something upsetting happens and wait to let the dust settle. Sometimes it takes something like this to bring the point home why it's better to sit tight until you have all the facts, so it's one of those painful, awkward life lessons! In any case it sounds like things are on the right track to coming to some sort of amicable resolution, which is great.


----------



## maryam187

Kris, sounds like (at least on a communication level) all has turned out OK. I understand you feel embarrassed, but know that we all get very emotional when it comes to our pets and we all make mistakes in some way or another. I understand you want this thread taken down, but I think it contains lots of lessons for all of us and those who will read this thread, i.e. it will also reflect that your breeder is trying to work with you and isn't as bad as some assumed he is. Keep us posted.


----------



## KrisE

Well, Jerry says a friend just got back from Cuba and there are a ton of chocolates running around. 

I think I'm going to Cuba next year


----------



## micki2much

KrisE said:


> I'm embarassed I made this public while the findings were still premature. I'm not usually this emotional.


Spoken like a true Hav Mom!!!!!!


----------



## KrisE

LOL you couldn't count the tiimes I'd look over at coco and conbust in tears even thinking I'd be sending her away. As others have stated in this very long thread. Life brings us challenges for a reason. 

Poor Jerry sure was challenged over the coals today. EVERY breeder has problems. I guess I'm his


----------



## ivyagogo

I wouldn't be so hard on yourself. It's a tough thing to go through. I almost gave my dog back because he wasn't getting along with my son. It's taken a long time for them to get to the point where they are now. I cried and cried thinking I was going to lose Gryff and it was only the support of this board that helped me through it.


----------



## JASHavanese

Sorry, I guess I asked wrong. I was wondering what* OFA* says the background of the parents are. I don't know who they are or I'd look them up and not ask although I know it's not going to say anything about bowed legs. 
I think most of us pretty much threw the HEART results out the window after finding out more about it so now we're back to square one trying to get answers to see if bowed legs are associated with other health problems.



KrisE said:


> I was told and keep being told that there have never been any problems with his dogs. I asked for the information, testing and was told this. I asked for a soaked down puppy, but I think he honestly didn't hear my requests. He seems busy running around for his dogs and his partners pekenese.
> He sent me pictures each week which was wonderful.
> 
> There's never a perfect dog. But, I was once told all his dogs are healthy and never had problems then I find out BonBon had a crooked leg and from memory some other issue once was told to me during an offhand comment in conversation.
> 
> Again, it came down to me trusting because I thought I was entering into a co-ownership to breed and show. If I didn't trust him, I wouldn't have entered into this agreement in the first place. I guess we call that kennel blind trust LOL:whoo:


----------



## KrisE

Jerry called me back. He's had some time to think about this and found a solution. If Coco does have issues where I can't breed or show her (which I should be able to determine on Tuesday) he'll send me a new show dog he's very excited about and keep working with me as a co-owner. 

Coco will be our loving pet and be spayed of course if she's found to have a genetic fault which shouldn't be bred.

I'm amazed at how Jerry has handled this considering what a snot I've been today. He's show true class and I'm so relived he can forgive me and be a friend. 

So there is a happy ending afterall


----------



## maryam187

:clap2: And THIS is exactly the reason why I think this thread shouldn't be deleted, it is too valuable from many angles.


----------



## HavaneseSoon

Great News! :whoo:


----------



## moxie

Very valuable thread. No need to be embarrassed, I think the situation unfolded in an amazing way. You were angry, worried, scared, in uncharted territory with "emotions galore" and you remembered your manners (AND the importance of not cutting your nose to spite your face until the outcome was reached)...:biggrin1: well done.


----------



## micki2much

Kris :whoo: we're soooo happy!!!!!


----------



## Alexa

I'm glad to hear the news. This has been an emotional rollercoaster even from the outside, so I am glad that everyone involved is working towards a solution that is best for everyone


----------



## Posh's Mom

I just read all eleven pages of this. Whoa. What a story. I'm glad that it seems to be working out now. Best to you all.


----------



## KrisE

Yes, some of this could help a new pet owner, but it's not a subjective discussion of a disease. 

My misunderstandings are mine. He shouldn't be held responsible for my ignorances. 

When a new pet owner first finds out her dog might have crooked legs, they probably will read up on Chondrodysplasia (CD). Pretty scary stuff. There are other reasons a dog might have crooked legs, including injury. Many never get sick with the diseases associated. There are plenty of straigh legged dogs with problems.

Its like when I came down with cancer. Someone should have locked me in a room til I had been diagnozed and treated, then cured. Google can be a cruel tool at times.


----------



## tikaboo

What a blessing to hear a happy ending to this story!:whoo: I think I would still be cautiously optimistic until he follows through with what he has said. Get everything in writing to protect yourself. I know that sounds terrible but you need to protect yourself and Coco at this point.


----------



## mellowbo

Awwww, so good! Carole xxoox


----------



## Sheri

What a great solution!!! So glad to read this, it was what I was hoping for!


----------



## sweetlotus

I have been following this thread all day and am so happy to hear about your great outcome. I overreacted when I got Mochi and saw that she was skipping when she ran. I looked up possible reasons for skipping on the internet and freaked out, thinking she had all the worst diseases. I could not stop sobbing the entire night. Anyway, I was being over dramatic because the vet diagnosed her w/ a luxating patella (as opposed to all the other much scarier scenarios I had in my head). I definitely gave my breeder a hard time w/ my worries. She also told me that there had never been any issues with her dogs in the past and I felt like a pain in her butt too! Our havanese just have some hold over us that cause us to love and worry about them so much  

Anyways, just wanted to say that I completely relate to you story and am very happy that things turned out so well.


----------



## PepperToast

Kris,

I'm happy for you. I don't think you freaked too much or did the wrong thing. Those legs would have really bothered me too if I was planing on showing and breeding. I was actually quite impressed with you :biggrin1: I think one of mistakes that we make as women is to put ourselves down for having emotional reactions. It's good to feel angry and sad when things are not as they should be... it helps get things done!

Maybe you could end this thread with a nice photo of Coco!?!?!?!? I know that would help me feel better about this whole thing :biggrin1:

Meeka


----------



## Laurief

Oh Kris, I am so happy to hear that this turned out ok. What a hard time this was for you - I am glad it worked out!


----------



## Scooter's Family

Hi Kris-So happy to hear that you and Jerry have come to a mutual agreement, it sounds more than fair to me! Forgiveness is good for all involved and I hope you won't beat yourself up over this. I would have reacted the same way. We all get a little crazy when love is involved and it's obvious how much you love Coco. Hugs to you and Jerry, I applaud you both for continuing to discuss such a difficult situation to find a happy end. You've both set a great example!


----------



## ama0722

Kris- I am really glad this all worked out for you, your breeder, and your dog. I would highly stress for you or anyone (ESPECIALLY getting a breeding dog!) you get copies of the parents health records before you even look at pics of a puppy. That should be a first thing you contact any breeder about not just hearing the breeder say the dog's parents are healthy. Health records aren't going to necessarily disclose CD or a horrible front but they should be what each person starts with before getting a havanese.



> ou may find available puppies from breeders listed on the Internet. Please make sure they do health testing on the sire and dam of the litter. You must receive documentation of all health testing done. The HCA recommends BAER a test for hearing, CERF, a test for eyes, OFA- Hips and Patella's. Many breeders do additional testing such as Bile acid for liver and Heart test. These tests are for the sire and dam of the litter as the puppies will be too young for most of them. A tested and healthy sire and dam mean better odds of good health for the puppies as well as a conscientious breeder.


http://havanese.org/education/puppy-buyers/60-puppy-buyers


----------



## marb42

Kris, I'm so glad things turned out well and that he was so accommodating. It sounds like he is a great breeder. If he wasn't, I'm sure word would have spread long ago. This seemed to be a first time, as you said, and the way he handled it would make me feel comfortable buying a puppy from him any day. Your thread was valuable to us all, and I'm so glad you get to keep Coco. Let us know how she's doing.
Gina


----------



## Jill in Mich

ama0722 said:


> Kris- I am really glad this all worked out for you, your breeder, and your dog. I would highly stress for you or anyone (ESPECIALLY getting a breeding dog!) you get copies of the parents health records before you even look at pics of a puppy. That should be a first thing you contact any breeder about not just hearing the breeder say the dog's parents are healthy. Health records aren't going to necessarily disclose CD or a horrible front but they should be what each person starts with before getting a havanese.
> http://havanese.org/education/puppy-buyers/60-puppy-buyers


Kris, it would probably be a good idea (for everyone involved) if you do this with the new puppy - if you end up going that route.


----------



## kelrobin

Kris, I just read through this entire longggg thread (was so tired last night after being out of town that I had to finish this AM  )

I am so sorry for everything you have gone through, but am very happy to hear that all is being resolved, and Coco gets to stay :hug: . . .a great happy ending to see when I got up this AM! I guess everyone's emotional worry when getting a dog of any breed (whether pet or show) is their health, but you, of course, needed much more in order to show and breed. Your first task as an ethical breeder yourself has already been fulfilled . . . to make sure the dog is sound in every respect. It also gives you the feeling of what to expect from breeding and how to handle it for the future, which will go a long way. My prayer at this point is that Coco's problems are minor and can be relieved without further emotional turmoil to you and her. :grouphug:

Jill, you are right about the papers, but there are those of us who discover this thread _after_ getting our puppy. Or we don't figure out where to look for all the pertinent information. I know now I should have asked my breeder more questions and seen more papers, and I think a lot of new owners are in that dilemma. I knew my breeder had a good reputation, but business people make mistakes and cut corners, and the education on this forum is invaluable to figuring out tough situations like Kris's. Thank you again to all of you on the forum who help with that education and support.eace:


----------



## Julie

:grouphug:


----------



## luv3havs

Kris,
Happy for you that things are being resolved so fairly.


----------



## Carefulove

I am happy for you, Coco and Jerry that a solution has been found!



KrisE said:


> ...I think I'm going to Cuba next year


Make sure you get information first or go with someone that has been there before. You don't want to end up in a bad situation! Like in every country there are some really bad areas and people in Cuba, just waiting for victims!


----------



## SMARTY

Kris, Please don’t beat yourself up over this thread. I think any of us would have done the same thing if our breeder had said “He's putting her up on puppyfind and reimbursing me if and when she sells.” Jerry said that in haste, I’m sure. This thread gave a lot of breeders, owners and buyers good information. 

The two of you seem to have a great solution worked out. Keep us posted.


----------



## Missy

Kris, I was delighted to hear Jerry's response this morning. I think this thread is valuable for so many reasons. I think if you want to make sure people understand the whole situation-- you may want to go and edit your first post to say something like "this thread was a learning experience...please read the WHOLE thread before you judge anyone or any dog" 

I am really hopeful that Coco will have no more problems and perhaps even be show material after all...but if not that he will provide you with a show pup and also let you keep coco as a loved pet speaks very highly of this breeder.


----------



## irnfit

I'm glad a solution has been reached that is good for all concerned, especially the pup. I know of Jerry through another forum, and also had the opportunity to meet him at the GNYHC match before Westminster this year. I have always been a little in awe of his outspokenness about the breed, so was a little surprised when I read this was one of his dogs. Once I knew, I figured he would work something out with you.


----------



## Pixiesmom

Kris-you reacted more rationally than I would have!
It's wonderful that the breeder stepped up and did the honorable thing. 
Now you'll have another girl to love. Things worked out-yay!
Now relax and start thinking of another name for that new girl you''ll be getting.

Beth and Pixie Puff


----------



## KrisE

I will change the first post, excellent idea Missy.

I chose Jerry because he's has extensive experience and was and still honored he's allowing me to be a part of his breeding program as a co-owner.

I probably won't show a chocolate, Jerry isn't sure he wants to breed for chocolate after this experiment.

We're working out which would work best and I might wait awhile for the right puppy. Or, I could take on one of his show prospects that are mature.

Jerry and I usually talke at least twice a week about everything under the sun. His knowledge of this breed, all the lines within this breed in the US and nationally is so extensive I'm sure I'm getting 1% of what he spouts out like a professor just thinking out loud.

What happened with coco was just a trial breeding and she'll get the best care with the hopes this is just minor with no other health issues.

I'm considering showing a beautiful black male and breeding him to keep one of his females to start my breeding program. http://havanese.tripod.com/id36.html
Take a look at him. I think he's so beautiful!

But, I have other options and will probably within 6 months have an exceptional show dog that I can breed


----------



## LuvCicero

I think this has been a good thread also. There are lessons to be learned and it shows how much we care for our Havs. I am thrilled the breeder is standing behind his pups and willing to work with you on your goal to have a show puppy. I hope things will continue to turn out well for all involved.


----------



## Leslie

So glad things have worked out for everyone concerned. This thread is very educational and I thank you, Kris, for not taking it down. 

I sure hope it turns out that Coco's crooked legs are nothing more than just crooked legs, and she has a nice long healthy life.


----------



## good buddy

I'm glad to hear you and your breeder are able to work things out and that Coco has an appointment so you can find out exactly what the problems are and what can be done to help. Please let us know what you find out on her. Hopefully it's not anything major and things all work out for the best!


----------



## juliav

Kris,

I am so happy that everything has worked out so well for you, that you breeder is doing the right thing and that most importantly things are going to work out well for your precious little Coco.  After all these wonderful little babies didn't ask to be here, they are the product of our wants, needs and desires and have so little to say about their fate. I love, love, love happy endings.


----------



## mellowbo

[email protected] said:


> this AM  )
> 
> Jill, you are right about the papers, but there are those of us who discover this thread _after_ getting our puppy. Or we don't figure out where to look for all the pertinent information. I know now I should have asked my breeder more questions and seen more papers, and I think a lot of new owners are in that dilemma. I knew my breeder had a good reputation, but business people make mistakes and cut corners, and the education on this forum is invaluable to figuring out tough situations like Kris's. Thank you again to all of you on the forum who help with that education and support.eace:


This is an excellent point. That is exactly what happened to me. We depended on breeders giving us all the important information. It's really hard to ask all the right questions when you don't know there are one's to ask. I don't think we should be too hard on ourselves for being naive.
Carole


----------



## Poornima

Kris, glad to know the things are looking better already! Good luck! I do hope that Coco doesn't have any serious health issues. Good luck to you and Coco!


----------



## ama0722

I agree if you are comfortable leave the thread up- it shows newbies the importance of having a good relationship with your breeder when something comes up. Something can come up with any dog regardless of health test, looking at soaped photos of hte parents, etc. This is exactly why one shouldn't get a do at a pet store or over the internet, etc. It is priceless to have your puppies breeder there for you at this time.

While I will agree with Robin and Carole- sometimes people don't know the right questions to ask. But most of these people are getting pets to be honest and that doesn't do as much damage to the breed. However, I think there should be a lot more questions asked to those thinking they will be breeding the pups they are getting. I am kind of in this fuzzy area- I have my first conformation dog (not sure if he will ever be bred- I am still trying to figure out how to keep him in coat <BG> ) I still have a lot to learn but health testing was the first thing I checked into with any breeder. But I think this should also be posted for someone who is looking around thinking they want to get a puppy to be bred and reading this forum. It is so much more important to be on top of this stuff if you think the puppy you are getting is going to be passing on his or her genetics.

Amanda


----------



## tikaboo

*Will you keep us posted*

Will you please keep us posted so we can know how things turn out for Coco and your journey to getting your new dog? 
Blessings


----------



## Cosmosmom

I have only wanted my dogs as companion dogs so I know how difficult it must be for you to have to give up a sweet little one you have bonded with ..
With Cosmo 's breeder she wanted her dog back no matter what his age or the problem if I was ever considering giving up the dog . He is not show quality even though I have a lot of comments about how nice looking he is .I knew it when I bought him that he was a companion dog only .
With Asta the breeder was wonderful in the beginning but once she heard he had a problem with his the position of the teeth she was not too happy . I only told her because at one time she stated she wanted to know if anything irregular developed so she cold be aware of it when breeding . At one time we had an agreement if he developed well we might consider to show him as she was very impressed with him as a puppy .. H Now with this discovery his teeth would have been a problem he could not have been shown ..
For me it was fine we loved him as he was and we did not need to be involved in breeding and showing dogs .I had him neutered and he became my little buddy and best friend ..
I told the breeder he was part of the family and no way would I want to return him it was just not meant to be .. She wished me well and said thank you . 
I know you had to make a very difficult decison and I wish you well .. Good luck in the future ..


----------



## lfung5

tikaboo said:


> Will you please keep us posted so we can know how things turn out for Coco and your journey to getting your new dog?
> Blessings


Yes, please start a new thread after her appointment. Hope it's good news!


----------



## KrisE

You can't get rid of me that easily LOL
I'll report back after Tuesdays meetings with the ortho's and update pictures of coco. Just because she can't be bred and her legs are a bit daft, doesn't mean she isn't just the prettiest thing I've ever seen. Of course I'm kennel blind from all her kisses 



tikaboo said:


> Will you please keep us posted so we can know how things turn out for Coco and your journey to getting your new dog?
> Blessings


----------



## Cosmosmom

She has the most adorable face I have ever seen . I am sure you never notice her legs .. Her eyes just captivate you ..


----------



## gelbergirl

watching this thread.
Hope things are going well with you and that beautiful sweetie!


----------



## KrisE

Oh yes, she's doing great. Thanks for asking


----------



## Julie

ama0722 said:


> *Something can come up with any dog regardless* *of health test, looking at soaped photos of hte parents, etc. This is exactly why one shouldn't get a do at a pet store or over the internet, etc. It is priceless to have your puppies breeder there for you at this time.*
> 
> While I will agree with Robin and Carole- sometimes people don't know the right questions to ask. But most of these people are getting pets to be honest and that doesn't do as much damage to the breed. *However, I think **there should be a lot more questions asked to those thinking they will be breeding the pups they are getting.* I am kind of in this fuzzy area- I have my first conformation dog (not sure if he will ever be bred- I am still trying to figure out how to keep him in coat <BG> ) I still have a lot to learn but health testing was the first thing I checked into with any breeder. *But I think this should also be posted for someone who is looking around thinking they want to get a puppy to be bred and reading this forum. It is so much more important to be on top of this stuff if you think the puppy you are getting is going to be passing on his or her genetics.*
> 
> Amanda


This is such an important statement I felt it needed to be highlighted.
I think you are right on Amanda.:thumb:


----------



## KrisE

*Here We Go, It's Tuesday*

Coco has her orthopedic appointment at noon. She hasn't eaten since last night so I'm going to see if they can check her liver for me as well today.

FYI: The night after Jerry said he'd send a puppy to me for showing at no charge, he retracted and now is going to give me a "partial credit" for a new dog from him. In effect, I'm to send him MORE MONEY, AND pay all vet costs to take care of coco.

I've been waiting patiently to see what the specialist says before I decide how I feel about this. If she's fine, Jerry owes me nothing. If she's going to need years of help and a shortened lifespan due to the complications of CD, I'm going to seek further retribution for everything I've had to endure due to his negligence in addition to her health costs.

Places like Puppyfind.com are breeding grounds for puppy mills to cut out the middle man and yet make themselves look like legitimate breeders who care about the welfare of animals. The need for clear federal laws protecting the consumer are needed.

I saved up for quite some time and today alone will cost at least 600.00.

I'll let everyone know when I get home how she's doing and what the prognosis is. The outcome today will determine what I do next on Coco's behalf.

I did want to add that Jerry stated he's going to try and breed BonBon again. I know at least 2 of the 6 born had leg issues and the studies state that when a CD dog is bred, 50% will have major health issues. So, my optimistic hope that this was just an injury that caused BonBon's leg to be bent just went out the window as well.

Minnesota laws are clear, but I flew out for my puppy so I'm going to have to consult with a lawyer regarding my rights.

In Minnesota, if a dog is ill from a disease present at birth (genetic). The breeder must give a new dog plus vets costs and/or reinburse paid price plus vet costs up to the value of the dog.

I bought her over the internet and paid with paypal over the internet. I flew to DC where he met me from West Virginia so I am pretty certain the laws pertaining to buyer protection would be federal. If anyone knows a lawyer who could instruct me, I'd greatly appreciate it.

I'm premature in writing this and will probably give Jerry a heart attack when someone informs him, but I'm so angry this morning, I don't give a rats butt.

If I find that Coco has CD and Jerry won't make this right to help me cover the costs of helping her live a good life, I will tell my story everywhere possible (yahoo groups, puppyfind and a special site made just for coco and everyone else who has to endure this pain)

I'm a web designer so a blog format for others to speak out, plus youtube.... I'm pretty dang good at marketing.

And regarding health papers, I've been told again, both dogs are fully tested yet no proof has been given. :frusty:


----------



## swtxsweetie

You have a good plan! This Jerry doesn't sound very nice, and to think that he's from the DC area! I will definitely warn my friends who are thinking about getting a Havanese after they got to know Momo.

If it does come to you having to share your story everywhere, I will definitely be there to support the sites and blogs. 

Hope all goes well with Coco today! She is beautiful!


----------



## Beamer

Umm, How could he not pay any vet bills for all this?? the first thing I would do is send him the $600 bill for today's appointment.

Ryan


----------



## kelrobin

Oh Kris, I am sorry to hear this story is not over. My wish at this point is that Coco is OK, and then everyone will feel better and Jerry won't be such a bad guy. I am surprised he is planning on breeding BonBon again, though. If Coco's report is not good, I would think he should certainly be persuaded to change his mind or he is asking for a lot more trouble. Surely he would reconsider what he has offered you and try to do the right thing, but maybe he is offended by the bad press at this point. 

Please let us know how Coco does and what they find. We are still here for you!


----------



## Havtahava

I haven't been following this too closely, but I do notice that you've posted about CD several times. Is there any verification that Coco or her mother have CD?


----------



## PepperToast

Kris,

I hope all goes well for Coco today. I too hope that Jerry will come through for you and do the right thing, that is after you have a diagnosis. From what you describe he does sound like he may turn out to be a disappointing breeder. Especially if he plans on breeding Coco's mommy again and she is passing on this fault. I wonder if he is thinking of doing it for coat color?!?!?!? 

I found myself to be disappointed with the 'show' world in general. I know that there are great people involved in the show world but had a hard'ish' time finding them. That is why this forum is good. The breeders who have a lot of respect here have been 'passed through the flames' and come out the other end shining 

I hope for yours and Coco's sake that she just has poor conformation and nothing else. 

I look forward to your update. :hug: Coco & Kris :hug:

Meeka


----------



## luv3havs

Let's hope she doesn't have CD. I think you need to find that out before doing anything else.
I'm sure you are anxious, but maybe unduly so. 
Hang in there!


----------



## tikaboo

*Is he really that foolish.....?*

Oh I am so sad to hear of his callousness. Is he really that foolish to retract his statement so early? He was so close to redeeming himself. I truly hope he does the right thing. You must be so grieved:frusty: 
My thoughts and prayers are with you. I hope Coco's appointment goes well.


----------



## mellowbo

I am wondering why it will cost $600. Isn't it just xrays??? Or is there more to it?

And, I do agree with what Amanda said. Anyone who is even considering breeding a dog needs to be held to a higher standard as far as checking on the genetics of a dog. I guess we sometimes go forward blindly without realizing it. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Wishing you the best today!

Carole


----------



## peluitohavanese

Rule number 1 when I sell a show prospect puppy is that the prospective owner gets soaped pictures of that puppy's front and rear. I also send soaped pictures of the shoulders so they can verify that there is proper layback and neck and proportions in the legs to chest ratio.
If a puppy doensn't have the correct qualifications for the show ring, I find it the absolute best companion / pet home I can. Parent are fully health tested. 
So... before you buy and this goes for buying from any breeder whether it is for pet or show:
1. Verify that the parents are fully health-tested. All health testing should be complete on the sire and dam and be registered on OFA. www.offa.org If you can't find the health testing results there....move on!
2. If you are buying a puppy for show / breeding potential please ask for soaps of the parents (both sire and dam) and the puppy. Is it possible for a female with a bowed front to produce puppies with straight legs? yes. it is. but without looking at the soaps of the pups, you won't know what you are getting.
3. Never breed for color only. Your focus will be on coat color and everything else will be secondary.
Arlene


----------



## peluitohavanese

OMG Kris. Yes she does have CD. I don't know how this was not obvious when she was placed with you.
Arlene


----------



## micki2much

Arlene, how do you know that she has CD???


----------



## Scooter's Family

So sorry to hear that he isn't going to make this right. I hope for all of you that the tests all come out ok. I'd be sending Jerry the vet bill too!!!


----------



## Beamer

Michelle,

I would think Arlene suspects CD after looking at those first pictures of the legs. I do not know much about CD, but look at those pictures! hmmmmmmmmm

Ryan


----------



## micki2much

Oh, I thought maybe she heard from Kris before she posted. What is CD????


----------



## peluitohavanese

Hi Michelle, 
A vet is the only qualifie person to diagnose CD in Kris' dog. With that being said, her front is a 
Textbook example of a CD front. The soaps could have been done better. The legs are not stacked straight with the shoulders and the photo is not taken straight on in front of the dog. Either way I don't think she will have a straight front in any picture no matter how she is stacked. Then there is her rear which is a mess. Soaps are subjective so a vet diagnosis is always necessary, but if this were my puppy I would take it back immediately. This pup should never have been sold as a show prospect. Many breeders are reluctant to place their good dogs in new show homes because they are inexperienced and also need to prove they are serious about showing and health testing and ethics. To place a dog with a front and rear like this one as a show prospect baffles the mind. I have placed very nice show dogs with pet people and new show people and am there to mentor them. Why would a breeder want to have their name represented I a bad way in the ring? You always put your best in the show ring. If CoCo returns with a diagnosis of CD it doesn't mean she will have all of these genetic illnesses some say are associated with CD. Were her parents health tested and if so what are the results? That is very important. CoCo should also have some testting to make sure she is healthy. I do believe that any judge that goes over fronts on the examination table at a show will feel those bowed legs tho, and as CoCo grows up she may have some trouble getting around and doing things other Havs do.
Arlene


----------



## tikaboo

*compare the pictures......*

Here is a site I found that seems to explain CD or Chondrodysplasia very well. 
http://www.erashavanese.com/CD2.html 
Look at the pictures Kris posted on the first page and compared to these pictures on the web site.......I'm no doctor but they don't look much different. Can there be crooked legs that are not CD? I hope the dr. gives her good news.


----------



## peluitohavanese

Yes there can be, but only a veterinary orthopedist should diagnose it. An xray is a good way.


----------



## micki2much

Thanks for the info all, it seems so sad. I hope every thing goes good for CoCo and Kris.


----------



## HavaneseSoon

I pray all will be well with the results. Sounds like the breeder is having 2nd thoughts about the situation until the results are known. Hang in there, we are here for you.


----------



## lfung5

peluitohavanese said:


> Hi Michelle,
> A vet is the only qualifie person to diagnose CD in Kris' dog. With that being said, her front is a
> Textbook example of a CD front. The soaps could have been done better. The legs are not stacked straight with the shoulders and the photo is not taken straight on in front of the dog. Either way I don't think she will have a straight front in any picture no matter how she is stacked. Then there is her rear which is a mess. Soaps are subjective so a vet diagnosis is always necessary, but if this were my puppy I would take it back immediately. This pup should never have been sold as a show prospect. Many breeders are reluctant to place their good dogs in new show homes because they are inexperienced and also need to prove they are serious about showing and health testing and ethics. To place a dog with a front and rear like this one as a show prospect baffles the mind. I have placed very nice show dogs with pet people and new show people and am there to mentor them. Why would a breeder want to have their name represented I a bad way in the ring? You always put your best in the show ring. If CoCo returns with a diagnosis of CD it doesn't mean she will have all of these genetic illnesses some say are associated with CD. Were her parents health tested and if so what are the results? That is very important. CoCo should also have some testting to make sure she is healthy. I do believe that any judge that goes over fronts on the examination table at a show will feel those bowed legs tho, and as CoCo grows up she may have some trouble getting around and doing things other Havs do.
> Arlene


I agree with this and am not sure why this wasn't brought up more. I am not an expert, but it doesn't take a vet to see this pup has crooked legs. Any breeder that would sell this pup as a show prospect is questionable. If Jerry doesn't do the right thing, I don't think it's wrong for Kris to warn anyone who will listen! This guy gives good breeder a bad name. Once upon a time, this guy was going to sell me a show pup. I am glad I saw the red flags. I hope I don't get shot for that comment.....


----------



## maryam187

lfung5 said:


> I agree with this and am not sure why this wasn't brought up more. I am not an expert, but it doesn't take a vet to see this pup has crooked legs. Any breeder that would sell this pup as a show prospect is questionable. If Jerry doesn't do the right thing, I don't think it's wrong for Kris to warn anyone who will listen! This guy gives good breeder a bad name. *Once upon a time, this guy was going to sell me a show pup. I am glad I saw the red flags. I hope I don't get shot for that comment.....*


Bold emphasis mine.

Linda, IMO, if you followed your instincts and gut feeling, no one has the right to 'shoot' you for that comment. (Not that I would want anyone to shoot you if you hadn't, LOL). You should be proud.

Kris, looking forward to more (hopefully positive) details.


----------



## tikaboo

*HCA code of ethics*

No one has ever answered the question if it is the Havanique breeder?

If a breeder is a member in "good standing" with different Havanese Associations, I believe they have a code of ethics they make there members hold to. What could that mean for him if a complaint is made?

Can she get any help or guidance from them as to how to handle the situation in regards to a member breeder? What about other groups a breeder may be a member of?

Could the ramifications for such a breeder be more costly and far reaching for his reputation than the cost of replacing one puppy?


----------



## Petaluna

just a thought, and you may have looked into this already, but Paypal has some buyer and seller protections built in under certain circumstances. I have never had to use it, so don't know the details of what your options are if you are unhappy with purchase, and there may be a time limit that has passed already. Also possible that it may not cover live animals, or would require you to send Coco back if if did. I sure hope you get good news at the vet. What a nightmare. The one bright spot is that she's a wonderful dog otherwise and you love her. Even if she does have CD, maybe she will still live a long, relatively healthy life with the right nutritional support, etc. I am hopeful that is the case.


----------



## Sheri

Oh, Kris, I'm so angry to read this new stand of Jerry's! It makes me so mad...even if it turns out to not be CD, if he knew the leg problems, he is ethically and morally bound to tell ANY potential buyer about it, and not just "show" buyers, either!!

He was supposed to be mentoring and teaching you, a novice, not using your lack of education against you!!

I will be anxiously watching for the results.


----------



## LynneOvington

Wow, Kris, I'm so sorry to hear of this turn of events. A website and blog about breeder issues like this would beneficial to many others, no doubt. You're gaining expertise in areas you never expected to, and sharing it with others would be generous. I hope you can find a lawyer knowledgeable in interstate commerce of this nature who can advise you and perhaps contribute to your website as a public service. I'd be happy to make a donation to your cause via my PayPal account, if that's possible. Giving you some money to help Coco sounds like a good idea, giving Jerry anymore money sounds like a bad idea.:suspicious:

Another thought -- I wonder if one of your local TV news stations would be interested in doing some investigative journalism on this issue. "Internet and interstate puppy purchases - buyer beware - tonight at 9 on KXAN." Viewers love stories like this that involve adorable animals, a fight for justice, and questionable business practices (especially in an industry that gives us "man's best friend.") It even sounds like the kind of story that "60 Minutes" would cover. I'm so sorry you're having to go through this heart wrenching experience. Good luck to you!


----------



## micki2much

Has anyone heard from Kris...How is CoCo????????????????????/


----------



## good buddy

I'm interested in hearing what the vet had to say today. :ear: I hope Kris writes in soon. *fingers crossed everything went well today.


----------



## peluitohavanese

I spoke to Kris about an hour ago. I am sure she will post soon.
Arlene


----------



## micki2much

Oh goodness Arlene is every thing OK, I've been so worried. Sorry maybe not for the right reasons, my boys have always been pets but this CD sounds like it could have serious effects!!!


----------



## peluitohavanese

No it's not allright. I mean Coco is happy and healthy but she does have CD. I will let Kris post about it though, as I think she should be the one to say.


----------



## maryam187

Irgs.  Kris, I'm so very sorry about this whole mess. I'm glad though, that Arlene is so wonderful to help and guide you.


----------



## Evye's Mom

peluitohavanese said:


> No it's not allright. I mean Coco is happy and healthy but she does have CD. I will let Kris post about it though, as I think she should be the one to say.


I don't know what to say honestly....only that I am very sorry.


----------



## Sheri

Oh, Kris. 

I'm so sorry for Coco and you. 

I'm glad you've got Arlene to help give you some of her knowledge.


----------



## tikaboo

My heart aches for her. Kris must of been a puddle of tears all day, poor thing. I really hope this guy does the right thing!!!!!!


----------



## micki2much

Oh goodness, I am so sorry things do not sound too good, but it sounds like coCo is healthy and THAT iis the good news, lets's hope the Breeder is AS happy and does the RIGHT thng


----------



## trueblue

I don't even know what to say after reading this thread. The whole situation just sucks. Kris, I'm so sorry for what you must be going through. 

I didn't read any of the links that you guys posted...is CD something that can affect a dog's life?


----------



## KrisE

*Well here's the rundown:*

Today I spent 680.00. I was told she is young enough yet to operate to save her from serious pain and he can't predict, but feels she'd be crippled. If soon enough he can save her from displasia of her elbows as well.

The proceedure entails shaving bone off the two bones that have grown longer than the other two.

These bones are similar to our two bones which connect our ankles to our knees. If one was longer than the other, the longer one would bend and eventually wear the ankle and/or knee out as well.

I've included her xrays. I have 2 months to come up with $2,500.00 for Coco's surgery. This is at the UofM Veternary Clinic in St Paul Minnesota. They're very good. He's calling me about the other tests, but everything so far comes up normal.

I called Jerry of Havanique Havanese and was told he'd love to help but he has no money. 

Another person asked me to contact the board of directors of the Havanese Club of America because they have a code of ethics for their members and one of the reasons I chose Jerry, he's a member of this club.

Jerry knowingly sold me a pet with CD and now is refusing to assist in her costly surgery. I'm way past thinking I can show her at this point...

I don't know how I'm going to come up with $2500.00, but the thought of Coco being cripled just kills me.

I have some nice things I can sell so I'm working on that. Two very expensive Coco Chanel courture suits will go for her surgery. I have a raft I can sell locally.

Jerry has a very nice show crate (given by me) that can hold 4 dogs. It's in excellent condition. It's in the DC area, but can be shipped for about 80.00. I'm asking 400.00 OBO. I can send details to anyone interested.


----------



## Sheri

Oh, my goodness. Those x-rays...! How very horrific for you...


----------



## Brady's mom

Oh Kris, I am so sorry! I am really shocked at how you are being treated by your breeder. I can't imagine that he would not at the very least return the money you paid for her to use toward her surgery. It is just heartbreaking. I don't have any advice, just wanted to send a :hug: your way.


----------



## micki2much

Oh Kris, I'm soooo sorry you and CoCo have to go through this. Poor little girl...my heart is breaking


----------



## maryam187

This whole situation is just so wrong. If you set up a paypal account, I'd be more than happy to chip in. Poor little puppy and poor you. Shouldn't the breeder at least give you the money back that you paid for Coco?


----------



## good buddy

Im so sorry to hear CoCo has this problem. How old is Coco now? Is she still growing? If so the legs could curve more without surgery.  I'm glad the rest of her test results are good so far and hope they will continue to be so. You have enough on your plate. Did the vet say for sure it IS CD? I'm not aware of a test for this, so I'm not sure how they decide. I would sell whatever I had to pay for the surgery. CoCo has a long life ahead of her and I'm sure you love her very much. I'm so sorry for what you're going through.


----------



## micki2much

maryam187 said:


> This whole situation is just so wrong. If you set up a paypal account, I'd be more than happy to chip in. Poor little puppy and poor you. Shouldn't the breeder at least give you the money back that you paid for Coco?


I would chip in too, Maryam great idea


----------



## tikaboo

*He condems himself.......A direct Quote take from his web site*

He condemns himself on his own web site. It is quite lengthy but I could not reprint it without putting the whole thing up and giving the credit at the end but it is pretty amazing how he condems himself. He seem pretty arrogant!

*Here is A direct Quote take from The Havanique web site*

"How to Kill a Shelter Dog"​_"It's really simple: Buy from an irresponsible breeder. I need you to hear this: If you buy from an irresponsible breeder, you are killing shelter dogs. YOU.

What's an irresponsible breeder? Any breeder that does not breed as a caretaker and devotee of her particular breed, as shown by showing, health testing, and being involved in a community of her peers._

Where do you find irresponsible breeders? Flea markets; swap meets; newspaper ads; generic sites on the Web that list a bunch of breeders on the same page. They're the guy at your office that let his girl dog get pregnant. They're the friend of a friend who bred her miniature Australian Shepherd "just once." They're your cousin who thinks she can make some money by breeding her Chesapeake Bay Retriever to another registered Chessie. They're the people with the plastic sign at the end of their driveway: "Yellow Labs: $250." Some of them even have gorgeous websites and professionally produced graphics; many of them are wonderful people, members of churches, clean housekeepers. They don't look like puppy mills or evil people. But hear this: I don't care if the breeder is your best friend and you think her dog is just awesome and your kids love the puppies and there was a rainbow in her driveway when you came over to see the litter. If she is not a responsible breeder, go to any vet's office and ask to see the big bottle of Euthanol and take a good hard look at it, then go to your shelter and pick out the six dogs that are going to get that needle because your friend bred her dog.

Learn to recognize the birdcall of the irresponsible breeder: "We focus on breeding happy, healthy pets." "You don't need a show breeder; you just want a pet." "We don't want our dogs ruined by the stresses of the show ring." "I am going to breed her once and only once, just so I can keep a puppy." "This mix offers the best of both worlds-the nonshedding poodle and the easy-going Lab" (or insert the two or three breeds of your choice). "Our pets are our babies-we breed only for temperament." "Mom and dad vet-checked." "Champion lines.""Family-raised adorable pets."

Learn to recognize the website of the irresponsible breeder: Dogs pictured lying down or playing. Males and females are called "mommies" and "daddies." Puppies are often shown with props, or with hats on, or on a satin background. A special place in hell is waiting for those websites that show all the breeding females obviously pregnant or lactating (because, presumably, they are never NOT pregnant or lactating). There are no show pictures (where the dogs are "stacked" foursquare) or groomed pictures. The dogs have no achievements aside from looking cute. There's usually a focus on external qualities: the biggest puppy, the smallest puppy, particular (often "rare") colors, desirable hair textures or lengths.

_So how does your purchase kill a shelter dog? Buying from an irresponsible breeder does several things: one, you're buying a dog that you could have adopted instead. Irresponsible breeders don't offer you anything that you can't find at a shelter; they do not breed only the best to the best; they don't warranty health or temperament; they don't test and prove their dogs to demonstrate that their breeding stock looks, acts, or performs the way that breed should. So they are competing directly with the shelters in terms of putting dogs into people's arms, and when people can buy a puppy instead of adopting an older dog, they virtually always do so._

_Second, irresponsible breeders don't just produce the puppy you brought home. That was one of a litter of perhaps six or eight. You gave them a pretty big check for almost no work on their part, so they'll do it again. Maybe they'll get a couple more bitches and make it a part-time job. So yeah, you may take this dog home and love it and never give it up, but your purchase encouraged the breeder to make thirty or forty or fifty more dogs. Can you guarantee that they all ended up in good homes? Can you be sure that they didn't end up in shelters? The purebred dogs in shelters are the result of irresponsible breeders-yup, the same one you just handed a check to. It's as simple as that._

_Irresponsible breeders are going to keep on breeding until they cannot sell puppies. The market must end. That's why it's YOUR responsibility, not just theirs. The first time they have a litter of seven Labs who are all still chewing on kitchen cabinets at age one, having consumed several thousand dollars worth of food; the first time they have to raise an entire litter of Maltese until the patellas start to fail on all the dogs; the first time they get some of the pain and none of the dollars, they'll reconsider doing this again. Until then, they will keep making puppies._

So what now?

There are exactly two ways to obtain a puppy or dog: adopt from a rescue, shelter, or pound; and buy from a responsible breeder who SHOWS (or trials) her dogs, who HEALTH TESTS (not "vet checks"), who INTERVIEWS YOU and who has standards for where she places her puppies-which means she may tell you no-who REQUIRES A WRITTEN CONTRACT including a puppy-back clause so your dog never ends up in a shelter or from an irresponsible rescue, and who is open to PEER REVIEW and a member in good standing in her community (as shown by participation in a club or recommendations from other good breeders in the area). These are the qualities that set her apart as a responsible breeder, and they're what keep your purchased puppy from adding to the statistics of homeless dogs.

It's really simple:Shelter dog. Buy e breeder. _I need you to hear this: If you buy from an irresponsible breeder, you are killing shelter dogs. YOU. _

"Permission gladly granted as long as the full article or post is reproduced and as long as attribution is given
(credit: Joanna Kimball, Blacksheep Cardigan Corgis).


----------



## peluitohavanese

This is so upsetting to me in more ways than one. To see that cute face on Coco in Kris' avatar and know that the surgery will be tough for a puppy that wants to romp and play but will have to be confined for weeks after surgery so she can heal.. It absolutely just makes my heart crunch. I also feel terribly for Kris as she is in quite a predicament in trying to find the money to be able to give her girl the quality of life she deserves. Kris if there is anything, absolutely anything I can do to help please let me and us know. This is a great group of caring Havanese loving people.
Arlene


----------



## Petaluna

how about a fundraiser? I'm in....


----------



## peluitohavanese

Me too


----------



## mellowbo

Me three.
Carole


----------



## KrisE

Yes, I would appreciate any help I can get to bring coco in sooner than later for this surgery. I've heard of one pup at a year getting this because he was in so much pain and I want to avoid this.

Also, Jerry has a trolly/show crate I gifted him. He says someone will have to pick it up. He doesn't have the packaging material for it any longer. It just needs to be wrapped in cardboard... 
Here's the link to the crate I sent Jerry. 
http://hydrogroom.com/dogshow.html
4-birth candy pink trolly with skirt and xtra large wheels


----------



## KrisE

well Jerry just called me and told me he'd given the trolly to his partner who breeds pekinese while she was screaming holy hell in the background. He's going to try his best to come up with the money but I really am not going to hold my breath.


----------



## Petaluna

I have a small selection of jewelry on etsy right now, I've been too busy to make new stuff. It'll all sterling or fine silver and gemstones. http://www.etsy.com/shop.php?user_id=5688115 I can donate some jewelry to a fundraiser. I was going to do that for HRI too this summer.

I gotta pack it in for the night, but I'll check back tomorrow and see if anyone has ideas.


----------



## KrisE

I think it would be best someone everyone trusts hold the money in a special account to be paid directly to the UofM as well. I want everyone to know and believe this isn't a scam.


----------



## mellowbo

I just don't understand why the breeder can't give you your money back so you can pay for the surgery. Or he can call the vet and give them his master card # over the phone to pay for the surgery. If he took the dog back wouldn't he have to reimburse you? This way he would be saving the dogs life.
This is all so sad for everyone concerned.
Vinny and Lulu send ear lickies for Coco.
Carole


----------



## KrisE

he has no money. He just called offering me a female he was going to show. A black and white party because he has no money.

But this I'm not to sell, I'm to show her as a replacement for Coco. 

He's doing the best he can do. I understand, I'm not cash wealthy myself.


----------



## tikaboo

*We should all contact him and/or the mayor of his home town*

He may not have the money now but that does not absolve him from financial remuneration after the fact. He needs to be accountable. He will be selling puppies in the near future I'm sure and you should be one of his first priorities. At this point If I were you I don't know if I would want another puppy from him.
We should all contact him and/or the mayor of his home town in regards to this.
[email protected], 
Harpers Ferry, WV
How to Report Fraud in the State of West Virginia
To report fraud or a scam in the state of West Virginia, start with the attorney general or the Better Business Bureau.
Office of the Attorney General
Attorney General: Darrell McGraw
http://www.wvago.gov/


----------



## micki2much

I agree...He is GOING TO BREED again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 Someone else, some other poor puppy will be born to this painful future!!!


----------



## KrisE

He's had a long reputation for being a good breeder. I've talked to many who know him and his dogs. 
His old stock (NOT chocolate) are of good quality. 

He became color blind I'm sorry to say. 

I don't want to go off on him unless he proves to still be breeding from this line. I doubt I'd see any money from him ever. This is my gut feeling. 

Most breeders buy stock and never get to show or breed. Their bite goes off. His partner was yelling in the background that she got a breeder peke that developed breathing problems and it's just part of being a breeder. 

When and if I ever become a breeder, I would never be without a reserve to handle health problems such as this. I know NO businesses that work without funding. I'm amazed.


----------



## Sheri

KrisE,
I don't think it is all right if he sold you a puppy he knew was not healthy in the first place. That was just wrong. Not having money now is no excuse for not making this right.


----------



## KrisE

Just an FYI. Through me and my referrals, He's sold $13,500.00 in business in the past 3 months. This is what I know of through my referrals. This doesn't include all the other pet sales I don't know about. 

I really don't understand why he doesn't have any money, but he doesn't and apparently the reputation is he never has any money LOL

So.............. we can all talk til we're blue in the face about what's right or whats wrong. 

My issues are about Coco and her needs. I thank God she ended up here in my home. I love her like a child I've carried for 9 months. She will get the surgery. 

Jerry is beside the point and will be dealt with when coco's story is over and she's out of her casts, running in the grass.


----------



## BeverlyA

This situation is so sad for you and Coco, Kris, and so disgusting on so many other levels, it boggles the mind.

We, as novices and pet owners diligently preach to anyone who will listen, and even those captive audiences in line at Petco, etc, the importance of going with a "responsible breeder" and someone who participates with their breeds club and organization, and this is the best it can offer us in return?
This is the second time in as many weeks that I've heard of a "responsible breeder" that does all the "health testing" that might was well call themselves a puppymill for as much as they care for their puppies health. 

I know that I will no longer just broadly suggest the HCA list of breeders if it is shown one of their members is continuing to breed a bitch, knowing the odds are high she will produce puppy's with CD, and there are no repercussions. Is that breeding to better the breed?

Beverly


----------



## KrisE

Havanese Code of Ethics from Havanese Club of America:

Code of Ethics 
The Havanese Club of America
Code of Ethics
Adopted Date - January, 1999
Introduction:
A. This Code of Ethics is presented as a guide for members whose foremost aim should be the welfare, improvement and advancement of the Havanese breed, in accordance with the Standard, as approved by the American Kennel Club.

B. This code sets forth principles of conduct to be followed by all members of The Havanese Club of America. Every member is charged with the responsibility to uphold, promote and practice the principles set forth in this Code of Ethics.

C. Membership in The Havanese Club of America automatically obligates the member to this Code of Ethics.

Conduct:
A. Each member of The Havanese Club of America will consider the welfare of the breed when engaged in breeding, exhibiting or selling Havanese, and will refrain from activities which are contrary to the best interests of the breed and the Club.

B. Every member will abide by the Constitution and By-Laws of the Havanese Club of America, and the rules and regulations of the American Kennel Club as they pertain to breeding, registration, record keeping and exhibiting.

C. Every Havanese will be provided clean living quarters, adequate veterinary care, proper nutrition and grooming.

D. Gossip, hearsay and innuendo regarding another member or their dogs is strongly discouraged.

E. All advertising will be factual and not misleading in any way.

Responsibilities of breeders:
A. Every breeding will be done from the standpoint of bettering the breed. Only Havanese that are physically and temperamentally sound and free of disqualifying faults will be used for breeding. No havanese will be used for breeding if it is known to be affected with, of a carrier of Juvenile Cataracts, PRA, heart disease or any other condition which affects the health of the progeny. Havanese which repeatedly produce affected offspring should be removed from the breeding program, and their offspring should not be used for breeding.

B. It is recommended that dogs offered at stud will not be bred prior to one year of age, nor after twelve years of age. Dogs will be in good health and free of communicable diseases and genetic faults.

C. Stud service will be refused to any bitch which is unregisterable or shows serious faults under the breed standard. Stud owners are responsible for puppies produced by their dogs, therefore it is recommended that they verify the bitch owner is a responsible owner and breeder.

D. It is recommended that bitches will not be bred prior to 18 months of age, nor after eight years of age. Bitches will be in good health and free of communicable disease and genetic faults.

E. All Havanese used for breeding should be examined by a Veterinary Ophthalmologist to rule out known or suspected hereditary eye disease (CERF exam). This can be accomplished at a "clearing eye clinic" sponsored by breed clubs or at the Veterinary Ophthalmologist's office. The CERF exam should be done annually until the dog reached the age of eight years. If at any time an eye disorder is detected and confirmed, the breeder will immediately remove this Havanese from the breeding program and will attempt to notify owners of offspring especially if the offspring entered into a breeding program.

F. For the welfare of the breed, all major health or genetic related problems should be shared with the Health Committee. It is not required that the name of the breeder or dog be provided. The information will be used for statistical reasons only unless the owner gives written permission to share the information as deemed appropriate.

Registration of Havanese:
A. All members will keep complete and accurate records of individual dogs, litters, breedings, pedigrees and puppy sales as required by the American Kennel Club, and abide by American Kennel Club rules and regulations which pertain to these activities.

B. Full registration: Register Havanese are considered to be of show and breeding quality, that is, they exhibit Havanese type, are found and free of disqualifying faults under the breed standard. The breeder will provide AKC registration certificate or application for registration at the time of sale or within 30 days following delivery of the dog. Registration papers may be withheld at the time of sale in cases of prior agreement in writing such as a breeding or lease agreement or similar contractual agreement which delays transfer of ownership until completion of the contract. Foreign members selling dogs to the United States should provide the proper registration papers and forms to accomplish AKC registration of imported dogs.

C. Limited Registration: Havanese Club of America members are encouraged to use limited registration for any Havanese which has faults of a nature that make it detrimental to the breed. All Havanese sold as pets and those not considered to be of show and/or breeding quality should be sold with limited registration and a spay/neuter agreement. A copy of the agreement may be sent to the AKC.

Selling Havanese:
A. Breeders/Sellers must be concerned with the proper placement of Havanese, both pet and show potential. It is recommended that breeders do a thorough background check of prospective buyers to insure they will provide a good home and proper care.

B. Havanese will not be displayed in public places for the purpose of immediate sale.

C. No Havanese will be sold to pet dealers, pet stores, pet wholesalers, or pet brokers either singly or in litter lots

D. Havanese will not be offered as raffle or contest prizes, or any other type of giveaway or auction.

E. All Havanese sold should be in good health and of a suitable age to leave litters (8 weeks is the minimum recommended age). To the best of the breeder's/seller's knowledge, all Havanese sold will be free of communicable disease and internal and/or external parasites.

F. The seller should supply written instruction on feeding, care, training and grooming, and medical records including dates and types of vaccinations and wormings.

G. Breeders should honestly evaluate the quality of the Havanese puppy and its parents and provide this information to the puppy buyer. Pet quality Havanese should not by misrepresented as show/breeding quality. If Havanese with serious faults are sold, the seller/breeder must take the responsibility to see that the dog is spayed/neutered.

H. Contracts must be clear and complete with all conditions agreed upon between buyer and breeder/seller stated. It is recommended that the contract include a stipulation that the breeder/seller be notified if the owner is unable to keep the Havanese. Assigned copy of the contract must be provided to each party involved.

I. Breeders/sellers are obligated to take back or help re-home any dog they sell, regardless of the reason or circumstances necessitating return.

J. Breeders/sellers should request that owners advise if any hereditary diseases or conditions arise.

Exhibition:
A. Members are expected to conduct themselves in a sportsmanlike manner both in and out of the show ring. Members will not engage in false statements regarding judges, other exhibitors, or their dogs.

B. Members are responsible for the appearance and conduct of their dogs at all times regardless of who is handling the dog. Dogs will be presented in the show ring clean and properly groomed according to the standard.

C. Hotels, motels and show grounds will be left in a clean condition.

Enforcement and Discipline:
A. Failure to comply with the Code of Ethics will subject a member to disciplinary action. Discipline under this code will be based upon procedures as provided in Article VI of the Constitution and By-Laws of the Havanese Club of America.

B. Any member may prefer charges against another member for alleged misconduct prejudicial to the interests of the breed or the club.

Acceptance and Agreement with the Code of Ethics:
A. Every member of The Havanese Club of America will be required to sign an acceptance of the Code of Ethics. All new members must sign an acceptance of the Code of Ethics before membership becomes effective. This acceptance will be binding on all members until such time as the Code of Ethics is modified, at which time a new acceptance must be signed.

B. Each member will be provided with a current, dated copy of the Code of Ethics at the time of signing the agreement.

Last Updated on Tuesday, 07 October 2008 09:13


----------



## tikaboo

*What did his partner mean?..........*



KrisE said:


> _His partner was yelling in the background that she got a breeder peke that developed breathing problems and it's just part of being a breeder. _


Was this said about him taking responsibility or your just sucking it up?GRRRRRRRR
He has a contract to uphold. Unless she is going to put up she should shut up!!!:nono: 
Don't put it past him to start making you feel guilty about the financial woes he now finds himself in. He should of had some kind of contingency plan in place in the event this kind of thing ever happened. Some people will take advantage of you making you feel sorry for the position he put himself in......*maybe he does not have the money now, but not having the money now does not mean he shouldn't be financially responsible for the consequences of a conscious decision he made to sell you a defective dog that was intended for breeding and showing*. *Justice is objective* It will be hard but you need to leave your sympathy out of it. 
Kris,You are tired and exhausted, you need time to think objectively, get some sleep. Don't agree to anything tonight, you are not going to be thinking straight. Seek out council from the HCA and a lawyer if need be. But do not take his word for anything, get it in WRITING.
I am so sorry your going through this. Stay strong. Get objective outside council!!!


----------



## KrisE

I already emailed MEMBERSHIP - Russ Armitage, Chair and asked they tell me who I need to talk to who can help me from the HCA to make Jerry either resign as a member or keep his word and keep his lifetime guarantee against defects. 

I'm not backing down, but through experience... if he was going to pay me any money he would have the moment he found this out... 

I can sue him, but getting paid is another matter. 

My goal is to get coco fixed and keep others from having the same issues. This means asking the HCA to get involved. 

Next, will be the two show groups that register all handlers... I'm sure they'd like to avoid letting someone show dogs in the ring that have this kind of ethic. 

Then, as someone else suggested, I'm going to ask the news stations locally if they'd like to cover this story. 

Sweeps is coming pretty soon. A documentary about coco would definitely be a good story.


----------



## Leslie

Kris~ I am beyond saddened by the news about Coco's health. Dealing with that is troubling enough but, I cannot believe how this man is treating you. It is unconscionable! He needs to take responsibility for the situation he has created. I'm certain he must have something of value he can sell and then send you the money. At the very least, he needs to refund every single penny he received from you.

Before we had Tori, we had Shadow. Unfortunately, Shadow became very ill, very quickly and required expensive speciality care. The vet bills were astronomical (they amounted to over $7000 in less than 3 weeks time). Well, Shadow's breeder didn't hesitate a minute to refund _every penny_ of what I had paid her, so I could put it toward the vet costs. Not only did that breeder act responsibily, many of these wonderful Forum members sent contributions to help us pay for her bills. This is one AMAZING place filled with the MOST caring, loving individuals. I would consider it an honor to contribute to the cost of Coco's surgery.

God bless and strengthen you as you go through this.


----------



## Beamer

Wow, this is the craziest thing i've seen on this forum in a long time, I have to say! First off, I'd like to say I'm very sorry for you and especially Coco... 

How can he offer you a show dog to show when both of you combined cannot afford a surgery for a dog he possibly 'duped' you into buying? (and by the way, I will also make a donation to Coco) Does it not take plenty of money to actually show a dog to its champion? Like, it just sounds like these dogs are just a 'commodity' to him or something?! I just do not get it..

For some reason, I always thought this Jerry from Havanique was an upstanding breeder. (I bet lots of people thought so to) In the past I have always read his posts on the Yahoo Havanese message board, where he comes off as the know it all of the Havanese world, and I think its very belivable to the masses that read his posts. I see his 'reputation' going downhill fast if he does not do some damage control. Saying I have no money in my wallet does not exactly releive him of his duties to you, kris. 

Maybe it's time for him to get a job so he can help you pay for Coco's care...

Ryan


----------



## KrisE

I do think this is one of several surgeries. The timing is off and it's not like I have time to plan considering he wants this surgery to happen soon. I'm between jobs and my husband just started a new one a week ago... 

I got coco mainly to be a friend to my 15 year old cockapoo. I thought showing would be a fun hobby for me and maybe breeding. Showing isn't that expensive if you stick around your home city. It certainly wouldn't cost me 2500.00 in 2 months. 

I did want to say the vet said he knew why I loved her and wanted to breed havanese. He hadn't met one before. He said she had the best temperment he's seen. She licked everyone even while being pricked and poked. 

She would make a very sweet spokesperson for responsible breeders. 

I know Jerry is being horrible. I just know this isn't a battle I'm going to win without someone of authority putting pressure on him. He also told me he'd already sold all his gold or he'd sell it now to pay me. Not that I really put much credibility in anything said right now. And my God, doesn't this man have a credit card???? 

I'd already checked into paypal and he has to have the money in his paypal account for me to get it back. I'm certain he's long since transfered it to his checking and spent it.


----------



## tikaboo

*Tell him the vet is will to let him make payments.....*

Tell him the vet is willing to let him make payments.....hmmm, there is a good idea.
He has other options he just does not want to consider them or use them unless he is forced.
Maybe he can take out a personal loan out against the equity in his house.
It sounds to me as though he has some dogs he is currently selling, that's a start?
Also, let him know you would be willing to wait and in-lew of immediate compensation take 2-3 pick of the litters (your choice, not his) to sell and use the profits to pay for vet expenses, surgery, ect. 
Whatever you agree to, get it witnessed and in writing.


----------



## Havanique

*CoCo, Breeders response.*

First? I am not going to get in a flaming fight here.
Then I will state, there are two sides to any issue.
And yes Kris started wanting a pet for OB, Therapy and later started to turn show and possably breeding. So I agreed if she turned out to be a show prospect to mentor her in that direction. Kris was charged pet price for what a chocolate goes for.
There were seven in a litter from a female who had none of my breeding in her pedigree and contained the Champion sister of Eukanuba,HCA National and Westminster Best of breed as the brother to Bon Bons mother. The line is from what has turned out to be the top breeder in Havnaese history. Breeding her to a male who is ROM and never produced health issues was a given. All the others had no problems or any have exibited the growth plates closing early. 
That said. I offered to take Coco back early on and give her another.She paid pet price subject to later evaluation as to representing her.She did not want to send her back. Since I have offered her either one of two pups I am sitting on for show. One male who is a repeat of a litter that has made two champions. The male being a clone to his famouse father and even better,
The girl is spectacular as the attached pictures show. Both would have no problem doing well on their own merit at shows.
Both have chocolate breeding in their pedigrees.But Kris is hooked on color.
There are thories on CD that are hypotisis at this time. There are breeds who are designed to be structured this way. IE Bulldogs, Frencies, PEKINGESE and others. Who do not have the issues Havanese people are associating with CD.
Additionally perfectly structured Havanese can and have been faced with the issues many are associating with CD.
Champions do not always make champions. Fully health tested dogs do not always creat healthy dogs. We as breeders use this as a tool to try and make happy healthy pups for show, pets and to carry on their breeding program. When you have to eventually bring new lines into what you have established as one of the healthest programs. You fear what you can be bringing in. 
Chocolate may be a popular color. But having worked with the color and seeing the results. I am rarely seeing any with the correct structure. I am getting the feeling there is a color related geneic problem present. They are beautiful when covered by their hair. But under I have never found one with great anatomy. Some close.Maybe the HSD people know something as this is a color not recognized in there standard????
In breeding you work to correct by using what you feel is will work. And hope the results will contribute to the breeds survival and the hope you find great loving homes like Kris who appreciate your efforts.
For you who breed. Do not judge, least you be judged.
Respectfully
Jerome ( the one who write in a weird way):brick:
PS: I will not go back and forth on this list on this. Kris and I will work this out.


----------



## Havanique

*Last word...*

My partner bought a Pekingese from one of the top breeders in the US. Paid $3,600 for him. Never shown. I showed him and got Best of Breed and points.
We took him to Vet who diagnosed a breathing problem which was determed as a possable hereditary issue. So this beautiful black and white parti color is here and here he will stay. No anger with the breeder, no need to repair as it is not life threatening. When the breeder has another she will give him to her.
They are still good friends and I have finished championship on two of her Peke girls recently for her.
Kriss is trying my patience with these threats and slander publicly aired on this foum. One thing goes badly in 18 years of being involved with positive results does not make a breeder bad or irresponsable. Especially when not working with the breeder to resolve the issues. 
I never said I would breed Coco's mom again. She will be neutered an placed.
These dogs are my friends and companions first and formost. They are not caged like many breeders do. Males have there area of our home as do girls.
People visiting remark how cared for and organized they are. How well the Havanese and Pekingese get along and are impressed how social both breeds are with them and one another. No crating or warehousing here. They sleep with us so must be kept up.
I have three rescue Havanese from a woman that died who are shy. Another who was abused who I took back and gave a replacement to the daughters family and got in writting she will not live with her mother. I have a 11 year old Cental Asian Ovchaka Rescue who would not do well in a home as she was trained as a police dog in Russia. She is sweet and loves us. And an abandoned Bichon 10 years old.
My responsability is to my dogs. To care for them. Feed them the best foods 
($60 for 29lb bag) and give them the vet care they need. Even sacrificing my own needs or wants.
The only pleasure I get out of life is finding great homes for or little ones.
Showing dogs and enjoying my dogs and the babies they grace me with.
I have been advised legally the slander, threats and attempts to slander my reputation leaved this foum, it's owners, moderators and members open for suit. She assured me legal presidence has been set with other forums.
So sit on your hands people. 
This is between me and Kris.
Jerome


----------



## trueblue

Jerry, I don't know who is giving you legal advice, but slander means someone is ruining your reputation by telling untruths. I don't know what's going on here, but I will say that I'm somewhat offended by your threat to the members of this forum. Kris said what she had to say about what happened, and all the members here expressed their concern. The members' posts about their concern for a dog you bred certainly do not constitute slander in any way, shape or form.


----------



## Leeann

Jerome I am a strong believer that breeders can only do the best they can when breeding. Even keeping up with all the health testing problems can arise. No one has looked down on you because you bred a dog with CD it is the fact that you are not doing what you can to help a puppy you brought into this world.
It is great that you offered to take Coco back but… if you cannot afford to help Kris with Coco’s surgery then you would not be able to afford to do it yourself. What would happen to her then? You are sitting on two pups for show and offered one to Kris that she cannot take at this time. If you are willing to give one of these pups up why not sell one and give the money to Kris so she can make sure Coco can have the best possible life. As a responsible breeder I would think that making sure one of your puppies has the best life possible would be your main priority right now and figure out a way to help make that happen. That is all everyone wants to see, show us you love your puppies and not just the dogs you have.


----------



## ama0722

I am sorry to hear Coco will need surgery but I was thinking with the photos she very well might . I know the description of CD varies- whether it be curved legs or short legs, etc. But hers looked very bad in the photos and at such a young age, I hope the surgery can help correct it.

Whether this dog was sold as show or pet, the parents are health tested, the parents are amazing show dogs, etc. There is obviously a little puppy who needs her mommy and her breeder to help her. A replacement puppy isn't going to do anything for Coco. Do you two have an actual contract that talks about health guarantees? Most at least have health guarantees until a year of age? I would hope that you guys can come together for Coco's best interest and forget about your own interest at this point.


----------



## gelbergirl

Is the surgery absolutely needed?

Maybe she will be okay without doing it?


----------



## peluitohavanese

Hi Beverly,
Just a quick note about the Breeder Directory on the HCA website. Not just any HCA member can put their kennel name on that list. You have to submit paperwork and prove that all health testing and CHIC numbers are on the dogs you have and use for breeding. If a breeder doesn't do health testing and doesn't post results on the OFA website and is not a member of HCA for at least 2 years, they are not allowed on the list. 
Of course, the business between the buyer and breeder is independent of HCA, but the Breeder's list is a good place to find responsible breeders who health test.
Arlene


----------



## KrisE

*I do want to correct some things said.*

Here's a copy of the contract, which states she was sold as a show/breeding prospect: I'm just curious why anyone would suggest a dog with leg and elbow problems be entered in agility competition.

I've called another surgeon and going in on Friday for a second opinion. This surgeon was suggested to me by another breeder of this forum. Thank you!

I can't handle another dog right now. I need help with getting Coco surgery and will be spending most of my summer helping her recover. I asked if I could sell this other dog offered me and was told I couldn't.

Regarding his lifetime guarantee against genetic defects: I was given this in emails, it's stated on his puppyfind.com profile and used to be stated on his site, but has since been removed.

Jerry, you're on govt assistance and food stamps correct? At least that's what Kari was screaming at the top of her lungs to me last night. Last night when Kari who breeds pekinese was screaning around all your well loved dogs why I couldn' sell the trolley told me everything I needed to know about you two and how much you care for your pets.


----------



## maryam187

Leeann said:


> Jerome I am a strong believer that breeders can only do the best they can when breeding. Even keeping up with all the health testing problems can arise. No one has looked down on you because you bred a dog with CD it is the fact that you are not doing what you can to help a puppy you brought into this world.
> It is great that you offered to take Coco back but&#8230; if you cannot afford to help Kris with Coco's surgery then you would not be able to afford to do it yourself. What would happen to her then? You are sitting on two pups for show and offered one to Kris that she cannot take at this time. If you are willing to give one of these pups up why not sell one and give the money to Kris so she can make sure Coco can have the best possible life. As a responsible breeder I would think that making sure one of your puppies has the best life possible would be your main priority right now and figure out a way to help make that happen. That is all everyone wants to see, show us you love your puppies and not just the dogs you have.


I agree 100%.


----------



## LynneOvington

Hi Kris, please let us contribute a little to help you and Coco. Could you give us your address for checks or a PayPal account for transfers?


----------



## KrisE

Yes, I can accept contributions. Please send them to krise (the @ symbol) mchsi.com through paypal and state this is for coco's surgery.

I don't want to put my address up publicy because of phising sites that will use it for other purposes. 

I'm still hoping Jerry will do the right thing and redeem himself. 

I'll hold the money in paypal and if he does do the right thing by refunding her fee for surgery, I'll refund of course.

Thank you
Kris


----------



## ama0722

Kris- you may also be able to set something up with the vet's office. I have known a lot of rescue groups use this method so there are no paypal fees. People can just phone your vet and pay with cc over the phone. They call up and say Coco's fund. There is currently a dog in my area that was hit by a car and people are all contributing this way. Just an idea especially if you go the route of putting your story with the local news.


----------



## LynneOvington

Good idea - or, if the the vet's office can't do this, perhaps you could set up a temporary PO Box address that would keep your home address private and avoid the Paypal fees?? How much does Paypal charge per transaction?


----------



## KrisE

Great idea. I called the UofM and you can call 612-624-2256 (cashier) and state you want to contribute to coco's surgery, account number #80137


----------



## maryam187

Sounds like a good idea. I think we should give Jerome at least a week to come up with something and then go from there.


----------



## KrisE

By the way, the Surgeon is Charles S. McBrien, Jr., DVM, Resident Small Animal Surgery. He's in surgery right now, but I left a message to get final information and schedule her surgery. I'll still go in for a second opinion on Friday with this other group. 

I'm going to schedule her surgery for a month out. This should give me plenty of time to get the money together and yet be within the 2 month window he suggested.


----------



## Julie

*I just want to caution you all---please think about your posts before actually hitting the button.*

This is a public forum and I want this to all be worked out *between Kris and Jerry. *

*Some of this I feel personally is not helping resolve your differences. *

That being said,I understand both sides and I want you to know that as a moderator,I am concerned how this thread is going. I have contacted Melissa and Dawna to view this thread and they will make any decisions needed...


----------



## suzyfrtz

Julie, 

I agree with you. While our hearts always go out to the little Havs, we on this forum have sometimes reacted too quickly in the past, without knowing the whole story. You who have been here a while surely remember! 

My sympathy to Kris and also to the breeder - I don't know either one of them except through this electronic and often impersonal forum. They should be the ones to resolve this. 

The rest of us, well, we really don't know....the rest of the story.

May Cocoa have a long and happy life! Hugs all around,

Suzy


----------



## Havanique

*CoCo*

Kris was told she would get the money back for Coco when pups are sold. The two offered are available for show homes. But Kris is in such a panic she would sell off to anyone just to get money. These two are outstanding older nine month pups who when shown will do very well. 
What Kris posted is a deposit contract. The full contract says the pup is to be returned. Will be replaced. Or monies when the dog is placed.
People are not buying right now. That is a problem for those of us with pups.
We are competing with cheap pups at online pet shops and puppy mills.
Due to this economy. People start thinking of getting dogs closer to summer.
Not at tax time.
She will be compensated. But not yesterday. I told her all this yesterday.
But she is hell bent on destruction of me and all I have contributed to this breed.
Jer..


----------



## Julie

I know you both are hurt,but I hope you guys work something out before this turns into a slug fest,that I can not have here. I hope you understand. I have sympathy for both of you in this situation,as there are no winners. I am concerned.....

I also am concerned for the members willing to help the puppy out financially. Is there a way Jerry,you can contact Kris and offer to pay the medical expenses on this pup? I'm asking you both to please resolve this privately as I don't want anyone's reputation smeared and no pup to suffer. I want you all to realize that I see that Kris is hurt and Jerry,you are too. Please try to resolve this without any more animousity. It is not that I don't understand....it is more I'd just love to see you both with a ending that you are satisfied with.


----------



## peluitohavanese

I agree


----------



## SMARTY

Julie I am not following why you would want this thread stopped, if that is the purpose for bringing Melissa’s attention to it. This is probably one of the most important threads we have had if for nothing more than for a buyer to understand their contract. 

At this time Jerome has given us insight into his side of this transaction. Whether we agree or not this is a "business transaction" and should be treaded as such. Most of our forum members never understand this when something goes wrong with the purchase of a puppy. 

This does need to be resolved between the Breeder/Seller and the Buyer, but if we never air these things or shut down threads as soon as the second side gets involved we are not helping to educate anyone.


----------



## KrisE

I agree that this should remain as unemotional as possible. I'm here to find help. If you read my thread about coco and the weekly photo's. I sent quite a few buyers (at least three that I know of) his way through this same forum. I'm here to get help and to also do what I feel is the right thing in warning others to get soaped pictures and a better contract from a reputable breeder who also shows full health tests online. 

I have no other contract or I'd have posted it. 

I'm open to anything suggested and of course would work with Jerry if he wants to set up a payment plan, but I'm being told I need Coco in for surgery within 2 months. I'm not creating the situation. I trying to deal with it as best I can. 

I've posted the vet's contact information if anyone wants to confirm. 

Do NOT trust the word of a breeder no matter what club/organization they belong to. They in the end, probably can't help you. 

I think it might help if those wondering what I should do, could take a moment and think what they would do if they were me. And, how would a good breeder handle this differently as well. Both breeders and buyers can learn from this.

Please don't sweep this under the table.


----------



## tikaboo

*Well said......*

Well said......:whoo:


----------



## KrisE

OK the dr just called. The reason they want to do surgery within 2 months is because they can cut the ulna and she can grow without too much more elbow dysplasia. 

He calls her elbows "incongruent". An elbow joint is round. Coco's elbows are oval showing signs that as this progresses it will cause pain and discomfort. 

She will still have bowed legs when she's done growing at just over a year old, but in the end she won't be as bowed as to cause her discomfort or make her lame. 

He called this an abnormality in growth and doesn't see any alarms going off with regards to her liver. 15 is normal, coco has 18. When a dog has a liver shunt, their reading is in the 100's. 

I've chatted offline with quite a few people and asked they add to this thread. 

One lady had this surgery at a year when her dog was in terrible pain. Another has a dog 4 years old with the same condition doing fine. 

My Dr is mostly concerned about her elbows as this worsens. He said, if this was my dog, I'd have surgery on her. He said it's not that she'll be straight legged in the end, it's that she'll be within a range that shouldn't cause her discomfort from elbow dysplasia. 

I hope this makes sense.


----------



## Julie

I'm not trying to shut the thread down,nor am I taking anyone's side. I think both Kris and Jerry have been hurt and I would just like to see them resolve it and both be happy.

I just feel that people need to set emotions aside,strong reactions aside(or at least throughly think it through BEFORE posting). This is my opinion to everyone....not just Kris or Jerry.

I think as emotions run high,people tend to say things(post) that are determental to the resolution.

There are times when misunderstandings occur that when vented publicly do not help.

I think this is an educational thread that has the potential to go south into a slug fest that no one wants.

Please just use caution--there is no point in trading insults.....2 wrongs do not make a right.


----------



## peluitohavanese

Kris,
This makes a lot of sense what the doctor said. If Coco were my puppy, I would definitely do the surgery. The U of M is awesome and she will come out of it very well


----------



## mellowbo

Personally this sounds like a high speed train ready to crash. Two months, or even one month is a long time to get money together especially if it is coming from several contributions. I would urge people to slow down, take a deep breath. Kris, it's a good idea to get another opinion. Don't you think people should at least wait for that before calling the vet with credit card #'s?
Coco is the real concern here, not the money.
JMHO
Carole


----------



## Julie

SMARTY said:


> Julie I am not following why you would want this thread stopped, if that is the purpose for bringing Melissa's attention to it.


Not at all-----My reason for bringing attention to it for Melissa and Dawna is because there are alot of emotions running high and a person's reputation as a breeder being discussed. If they want to allow it,it is up to them,not me. It is my opinion,that this should be monitored closely with more capabilities then I have as a moderator. They are the administrators. I feel it has the potential to go down hill very quickly,like I said,into a slug fest and I do not want that to happen.

Instead,I'd like to see them both work out a compromise and even if Coco's purchase price is refunded and they never work together again in any other arrangements/deals....I'd just like them both to calmly work it out for the best interest of the puppy and for them as well.

Giving us the "gorrie details" is not a requirement nor is a blow by blow account.That is what I am saying. If you don't agree,I am sorry,but that is how I feel.


----------



## ama0722

I would agree slow down and get another opinion from another vet on Friday and make sure you are completely prepared for surgery and what to expect. Is CD surgery usually done on the elbow? I thought it was on the leg bone itself? It will also give you sometime to work things out with you and Jerome as it sounds like he wants to help and is going to try and give you your money back.

Also I remember from Dr. Center's seminar that you can't test the liver with just one blood panel you always have to do the fasting and after test to have a true measurement. If there really is a link between CD and liver shunt, etc -there is a wide variety of thoughts in just Havs as to what CD really means for a dog.

Hugs,
Amanda


----------



## KrisE

Yes, I'm going in on Friday, but the UofM is a highly respected facility. I really don't believe he'd recommend causing pain through surgery if he didn't believe it was best for Coco. 
He's also talked to several other surgeons to confirm. I'm going to make a decision next week either way. But, I'm 90% certain I'm going to do this.


----------



## Havanique

*Emotions*

*You can not remain unemotional when dealing with a person who promised to work this out. Then turns to the computer and immediately attacks.*
If you feel the need to go on with this there is nothing I can do. But this is between Kris and myself.
Everyone hits a wall. Even the most sucessful.
Carrie never owned or has never bred Havanese. We are two breeder/exhibitors who share a home. And the expenses involved in the welfare of our dogs and ourselves. This economy has thrown many for a curve.
So we have to deal with it.
I agreed to refund for Coco when it is available. Not yesterday as she demanded screaming on the phone. Offered another quality dog who would be and can be represented with out issues which was turned down. I do not want these dogs bounced to other homes I have not screened and would not show them.
We hold show prospects or they would have been petted out.
Kris is in attack mode. If she does not back off after ripping me appart I
will call all bets off as per advised by my attorney.
My show contracts state if the dog develops to not be show, the difference in price would be refunded. Kris got Coco at what those who have chocolates get at pet price.
I will not sit up until 5:30 am tring to explain this again.
This forum is not the place to resolve this.
*It also is alerting others as to the nature of the attacker and what they would face if they chose to place one of their babies with her.* 
"There but for the grace of GOD go I"
Or "Judge,least you be judged"

Jerome


----------



## KrisE

They shave the ulna which would be the bone connecting the joints.

Because the ulna is growing faster than the other bone (there are two that hold the joints for movement), it's effecting her joints from the pressure.

I'm not giving up on finding a solution with Jerry, but I'm not holding my breath til this summer either.

I'm reading through others who have had this issue, contacting others who have posted from a few years back to see how it turned out for their dogs.

I know it's difficult to follow such a long thread. Just repeating what was missed and asked again.



ama0722 said:


> I would agree slow down and get another opinion from another vet on Friday and make sure you are completely prepared for surgery and what to expect. Is CD surgery usually done on the elbow? I thought it was on the leg bone itself? It will also give you sometime to work things out with you and Jerome as it sounds like he wants to help and is going to try and give you your money back.
> 
> Also I remember from Dr. Center's seminar that you can't test the liver with just one blood panel you always have to do the fasting and after test to have a true measurement. If there really is a link between CD and liver shunt, etc -there is a wide variety of thoughts in just Havs as to what CD really means for a dog.
> 
> Hugs,
> Amanda


----------



## ama0722

Kris- I think none of us would wait and would do the best for our pup too. It is great you found a knowledgeable doctor and facility as well (that in itself is priceless). I think it is good you contacted others for support and are prepared for what surgery means as well. I think there are a couple people on the forum who have had major surgeries like that as well and hopefully you can get in touch with them. I don't know if there is another breed that has this type of surgery often- maybe your vet can tell you? But you might want to check for information there as well and what supplements, etc will help Coco as she grows up.


----------



## SMARTY

Kris, you ask for our opinions. So here goes……Of course the doctor said he would do the surgery if it was his dog. In loving our pets, the one thing we do is not to be practical. Is $2,500 the total amount that Coco’s surgery and recovery going to cost or is it the beginning? How much are you willing to do? When money is one of the main worries you have to consider the welfare of your family & the quality of life for you and Coco. 

I do not think I would consider this step unless the vet knew this would give her a pain free life. Is this the first step in many or a bandage on the problem? I could not do it to her, unless I was prepared to take it as far as needed to make sure she had the best possible life.

Will she ever be the dog you wanted? She very possibly could be the love of your life, with little crooked legs. 

Do not consider the breeder in your decision for vet bills, he has stated his financial position . The Forum members are generous but I think Leslie only received a tenth of what the bills were for Shadow.


----------



## KrisE

I have never screamed, I've cried. Coco is not pet quality Jerry. She never was as you well know. There's another thread I'm reading on this forum about responsible breeding and what to do when you have a puppy with serious health issues.

A breeder posted what she did with this same exact issue from one of her litters. She kept the puppy til she was 6 months, had surgery done on her leg and had her spayed. Then, she told the buyer of the issue and issued a small re-homing fee for the benefit of the puppy with a bowed leg. Everyone's happy and she's retained her integrity.

I have emailed her to ask her the details in deciding Coco's fate. But, I hold her of the highest regard. Do a search by culling or bowed... I'm doing this research to try and determine what to do... have surgery for coco now or take my chances and hope I don't cause more damange by waiting.

Coco's color has nothing to do with her value at this point. She's priceless no matter what color she is to me.

But, I have never screamed in the phone at you. I've listend to you tell me you'll send me the money for her surgery as soon as you can and waffle from sending me a show dog I can't handle right now to determing her value as a pet and what you will refund as a difference. This summer probably you'll get paid... If I take the UofM department of ortho's suggestion, I need to do this now to give her the best chance of a long healthy life.

If you read through the threads, I've also tried to defend your reputation. Yes, I'm angry and disappointed in the predicament I'm in through the lack of distrust and lack of knowledge when I bought coco... I put myself in this position.

But, keep in mind. Coco is probably at the best home she could have been, other than the lady in California who saw the leg issue and kept the puppy, then had surgery on her leg, eventually placing in a home that had full knowledge of her condition.



Havanique said:


> *You can not remain unemotional when dealing with a person who promised to work this out. Then turns to the computer and immediately attacks.*
> If you feel the need to go on with this there is nothing I can do. But this is between Kris and myself.
> Everyone hits a wall. Even the most sucessful.
> Carrie never owned or has never bred Havanese. We are two breeder/exhibitors who share a home. And the expenses involved in the welfare of our dogs and ourselves. This economy has thrown many for a curve.
> So we have to deal with it.
> I agreed to refund for Coco when it is available. Not yesterday as she demanded screaming on the phone. Offered another quality dog who would be and can be represented with out issues which was turned down. I do not want these dogs bounced to other homes I have not screened and would not show them.
> We hold show prospects or they would have been petted out.
> Kris is in attack mode. If she does not back off after ripping me appart I
> will call all bets off as per advised by my attorney.
> My show contracts state if the dog develops to not be show, the difference in price would be refunded. Kris got Coco at what those who have chocolates get at pet price.
> I will not sit up until 5:30 am tring to explain this again.
> This forum is not the place to resolve this.
> *It also is alerting others as to the nature of the attacker and what they would face if they chose to place one of their babies with her.*
> "There but for the grace of GOD go I"
> Or "Judge,least you be judged"
> 
> Jerome


----------



## Beamer

Kris, I would also wait for a second or third opinion if I were you. Just to make sure youhave taken all the appropriate steps in determining Coco's condition and treatment. Also, the cost of the treatment could also vary with the different facilities.

Ryan


----------



## gelbergirl

KrisE, maybe take a break from this forum for 24 hours or so. Being on here in this capacity can't be good for your emotional health or your family's or Coco's.
Please take a break, we'll all be here for you when you get back . . . .


----------



## SMARTY

Jerome, as you have joined this forum, I have one question that would help a lot of us understand this dilemma.

As an experienced breeder of the Havanese could you not see indications of this problem before Coco was delivered to Kris?


----------



## Havanique

Kris was informed her shoulder was slightly off and turned the one foot out. She was too young to determine if this was a stage or a developing issue. Dependent on her growth plates. She was given the option of backing out. But wanted Coco. Also we had an understanding she would be spayed and not bred if she did not turn out. But in her exitment about getting Coco a lot of this got twisted and distorted.
I also informed her when available we would work out for her to get a show prospect if this one did not turn out.
It is like teeth. Adult teeth sometimes do not come in properly as they were before teething. That is why it is hard to represent as show. Unless one holds until after 5/6 months.


Jerome


----------



## sweetlotus

FYI this is caselaw from a situation similar to Kris's. In Appell v. Rodriguez, the court found in favor of the buyer. I copy pasted the decisionsand substituted some of my own wording.

Dogs have been held to constitute "goods" within the meaning of section 2-105 of the Uniform Commercial Code, and a private breeder, is a "merchant" within the meaning of UCC 2-104(1). Consequently, Kris can bring on action based upon a finding of the breeder's breach of the implied warranty of merchantability (UCC 2-314).

The evidence submitted by plaintiffs at trial adequately established that the dog suffered from severe hip dysplasia, a congenital condition which, by its nature, had to have existed at the time of sale, and could not have resulted from any mistreatment while under the care of plaintiffs. Accordingly, the court's conclusion that plaintiffs were entitled to recover the $1,500 purchase price (UCC 2-714[1] ) was supported by the record and rendered "substantial justice between the parties."

Therefore, Kris, you have legal recourse in small claims court against Havanique if you so wish to proceed.

Lastly, Havanique, your lawyer is poorly advising you if you are indeed seeking his/her advice. In order to be libel, Kris must be making false statements with a defamatory sting. There are many factors as to why her statements do not meet the treshhold of "defamatory sting" even if some statements are false. Further, it's also possible that you can be deemed to be a "limited-purpose public figure," in which case, the statements need to be made with malicious intent, which it clearly was not in this case. I won't go into in-depth analysis, but you would most likely be wasting money, money you claim not to have, in bringing a defamation suit. Whereas Kris can bring a cross-claim in which she has a higher chance of succeeding.

Disclaimer: I am only a law student, not a lawyer. This is not legal advice, merely my opinion. But I did research the issues I discussed.


----------



## SMARTY

Havanique said:


> Kris was informed her shoulder was slightly off and turned the one foot out. She was too young to determine if this was a stage or a developing issue. Dependent on her growth plates. She was given the option of backing out. But wanted Coco. Also we had an understanding she would be spayed and not bred if she did not turn out. But in her exitment about getting Coco a lot of this got twisted and distorted.
> I also informed her when available we would work out for her to get a show prospect if this one did not turn out.
> It is like teeth. Adult teeth sometimes do not come in properly as they were before teething. That is why it is hard to represent as show. Unless one holds until after 5/6 months.
> 
> Jerome


thank you for your reply.


----------



## KrisE

*Well, I kept all the emails so.... happy reading*

I'm taking this post down because I don't want the whole thread pulled. But, in effect... I have proof that all along Jerry was instructing me on how to show Coco and breed her with the knowlege she had a leg problem. Never once were we talking about agility and her being sold to me as pet quality.


----------



## tikaboo

*Jerry, Don't quote scripture to polish your halo.......*

Jerry, don't quote scripture to polish your halo.......You don't want to go there. There is a wealth of Scripture that applies to this situation, and it wont make you look that righteous. 
If you are truly interested in glorifying God in your business dealings, as I presume this is why you originally quoted scripture, humble your self and do the right thing. Don't hold out a possible solution and then tie Kriss's hands to use it to help Coco with the medical bills. Replacing Coco and financing her medical bills are two separate issues. Unfortunately it is sad to say that people do remember that one bad experience. It has the potential to set a precedence of how they may be treated in the future if problems arise. You have a huge opportunity here to Redeem your self and your good name by going above and beyond to make things right, that is all anyone is asking for. Stand behind your dogs and health guarantee. You may be tarnishing and doing more damage to your reputation by posturing, intimidating and bullying instead of finding real solutions you will follow through with. You are the professional here. To be honest, it doesn't make you look very willing to go the extra mile and sacrifice for the best resolution to the health problems of a dog you produced, that is the bottom line. Actions speak louder than words. Your kind, gracious, right handling of this situation will only better your name and reputation in the end. It may mean you will have to take a financial loss temporarily but look at all the recommendations from this forum alone you could have the potential for. We will all be able to say what a truly great breeder Jerry is, look how he handled the Coco situation. 
I anxiously await the good news that you are following through with your promises, this in my mind is the true sign of a great breeder and not how many champions he has produced.


----------



## Cosmosmom

I hope you will be able to keep things in perspective and as was suggested by another forum member continue to focus on the dog cocoa ..
it is very unfortunate what has happen to her but unfortunately it is not a perfect world . sometimes mother nature is unkind and things just do not go the way we had planned .
my friend Donna who owns Tulip had to have both of her patellas fixed . She had the subluxating patellas and first one went and she had it corrected and then the second went as well . Tulip was about 4 years old when this happened her" little bunny "as she calls her . Tulip was in pain and her mommy did what was necessary . She got it repaired and trust me the surgery was costly . She is fine now and you would never know she had surgery .. She can run and play with the best of them .
Never once did Donna contact the breeder to ask for payment or suggest she take the dog back . Supposedly this was a reputable breeder and the dog had been health tested and soaped .. whatever they were doing at the time was done .. 
It is difficult to be to see what is happening here - there are a lot of emotions and hurt feelings right now . I lot of he said she said and after a while we lose our focus .. 
I remember when I was getting Asta it was an education for me . I had a friend who helped me but still the Havanese breed was new to me and there was only so much information at the time .. 
I was clear with the breeder however I only wanted companion quality . Then after the puppies were evaluated just before placement the breeder came back and said Asta may be show quality and would I be receptive to this if she was involved and she helped me .. I agreed with a qualification that I was still to be the dog's owner as I wanted to be able to have control . Asta did not turn out to be show quality so I went back to plan A .. A cute companion dog .. 
Kris it is unclear to me what your true motivation was as sometimes you say you wanted a companion and then you say you wanted to breed and show .. 
The breeder says it was always just to be a companion and pet .
Hopefully this can be resolved without all the name calling and anymosity . Please let focus on Coco .. and what is best for her .. 
I am happy to help financially in anyway I can .
Please do not go the litigation route . It is not worth it for the toll it will take on both of you .. It demoralizes you both and it is so stressful to both parties and their families . It does not benefit anyone only the attorneys .. 
Take a time out for a few days so you can get some objectivity . If necessary hire a mediator but for now focus on making this little dogs life better . Make a clear decision about the surgery and stick with it .
it might be helpful to get a second opinion as you do not know there may be a different and better solution .. 
Good luck ..


----------



## Leeann

KrisE said:


> I'm taking this post down because I don't want the whole thread pulled. But, in effect... I have proof that all along Jerry was instructing me on how to show Coco and breed her with the knowlege she had a leg problem. Never once were we talking about agility and her being sold to me as pet quality.


Thank you because I for one did not like it and was ready to ask Melissa myself to take this thread down.

I would love to see this thread kept were others can learn about Coco's condition and what can be done to give her the best possible life she can have. Along with checking health testing and contracts with your breeder. I think the breeders name has been mentioned enough in this thread and smearing his name in every post does not teach us anything else.


----------



## kelrobin

I think after exhaustedly reading through the rest of this thread, my reaction is that the dirty laundry between Kris and Jerome has been aired enough, and that they need to work it out beyond the forum. Both sides have stated their cases, and we are not the judge and jury, and there are a lot of issues here that are legal and not for us to be giving advice. We can all form our opinions about "he said, she said," but our forum is not going to decide the outcome of this situation. Members here can always get in touch with either side privately, but I think this is becoming too ugly for the forum. While I appreciate the educational aspect of what has happened for future breeders/buyers, my only concern at this point is for little Coco.

I think the best use of this forum now is for Kris to let us know about Coco's second vet opinion, and then make a decision on how or if she needs help financially.


----------



## Julie

KrisE---thank you for removing the personal emails. I think that was over reaching at best. Personal emails and messages are never a good idea to post publicly.

I do hope the focus is to reach a good compromise between the both of you as far as Coco is concerned,and then avoid any future involvements with each other.<----sorry,but spoken from a Mom's point of view.


----------



## Beamer

Kris, I saw in the post you removed that Jerry writes about that HSD dog Ch. (insert dogs name here) having some bad CD. (and the fact that this hav err, I mean HSD is in many HSD breedings) 

Jerry, is that true? Or were you just trying to prove a point to Kris that all breeders use less than perfect dogs to create perfection? Honestly, i though HSD dogs did not have any faults?? 

An HSD spokesperson should be here any moment now... lol

Ryan


----------



## maryam187

Ryan, :fish: here you go. I haven't seen the email post Kris decided to remove which I agree was a good thing to do. If you are interested in what was stated in it, why don't you contact Jerome in private rather than changing the subject of this thread? Just a suggestion.


----------



## Beamer

Maryam, i know what your saying.. I agree... HSD or not (I just thought it was funny) He was saying its ok to breed dogs with defects because it will not be passed down if bred with a dog with none... Which sounds really wierd to me! 

Ryan


----------



## Beamer

You know, I hope this thread is not doing more harm than good.. How could a prospective buyer ever trust any breeder after reading all this. I am even having a difficult time trusting breeders in my search for a second and I've already been through the drama once before. (as some of you may recall there was a lot of crap involved in my search for the perfect Beamer, 2 years ago). 

Honestly have heard bad things said about every single breeder out in havaneseland. So who do you trust these days? 

Ryan


----------



## maryam187

Ryan, so it's official, hein? Beamer is getting a humping buddy? :llama: I would say, do your homework, trust your instincts, and hope for the best. All breeders are humans after all and all Havanese are animals growing under the hand of mother nature. There's no health guarantee, but there are good breeders that stand behind their dogs/pups and try to do the best damage control if needed.


----------



## Carefulove

Beamer said:


> ...Honestly have heard bad things said about every single breeder out in havaneseland. So who do you trust these days?
> 
> Ryan


Honestly, I am considering going to Toys R us, getting a stuffed dog, getting a nice harness for it and then stroll around the park with my stuffed dog.

Seriously now, I was just thinking the same thing.

This question is for breeders: Do prospect buyers of pet AND show puppies usually ask for soap down pictures? 
Tks


----------



## swtxsweetie

Ryan, I totally agree. It's just so hard to find a good breeder, not that there aren't any out there. But there are enough bad ones that makes everyone more suspicious. 

I would say it's best to find someone who has a Havanese and find out personal experiences with breeders. Getting a puppy can be the best thing in the world, but can also be a complete nightmare. Good luck to all you looking for a puppy!

Hope Kris and Jerry and Coco work things out soon.


----------



## gelbergirl

I'm on Coco's side!!! :cheer2:


----------



## Lina

Not to hijack this thread at all, but I think that there is a big difference between not liking a breeder personally and not liking their breeding methods. I don't think I have ever found a fault with Kimberly (Hitchcock's breeder) and would be hard pressed to hear of someone who says negative things about her breeding program, health guarantee, and the way she treats and deals with her puppy owners. Personally, on the other hand, I'm sure that there are people who don't necessarily like her (not me, I LOVE her! ), as there are people who don't like lots and lots of other people. I heard a statistic once that said that 10% of everyone you meet won't like you. Whether or not that's true, it's a good thing to keep in mind when hearing negative opinions on this or another person. Just a thought.

Also, Zury, I don't think you're out of line at all. Kimberly provided me with Hitch's soaped pics when he was 8 weeks old... PLUS she wrote on the comments below the pictures detailing what I was looking at, which was ever so helpful, as you can see if you go to his flickr set here. The soaped pictures start on the 4th row of pictures.

Kris, I'm really not trying to hijack this thread... hope it's okay to post this here!


----------



## maryam187

Lina said:


> Not to hijack this thread at all, but I think that there is a big difference between not liking a breeder personally and not liking their breeding methods. I don't think I have ever found a fault with Kimberly (Hitchcock's breeder) and would be hard pressed to hear of someone who says negative things about her breeding program, health guarantee, and the way she treats and deals with her puppy owners. Personally, on the other hand, I'm sure that there are people who don't necessarily like her (not me, I LOVE her! ), as there are people who don't like lots and lots of other people. *I heard a statistic once that said that 10% of everyone you meet won't like you. *Whether or not that's true, it's a good thing to keep in mind when hearing negative opinions on this or another person. Just a thought.
> 
> Also, Zury, I don't think you're out of line at all. Kimberly provided me with Hitch's soaped pics when he was 8 weeks old... PLUS she wrote on the comments below the pictures detailing what I was looking at, which was ever so helpful, as you can see if you go to his flickr set here. The soaped pictures start on the 4th row of pictures.
> 
> Kris, I'm really not trying to hijack this thread... hope it's okay to post this here!


Bold emphasis mine. Carolina, those statistics obviously weren't including the people that meet me. In my case I'm sure it's 33% like, 33% dunno, and 33% hate. eace:

:focus:


----------



## Milo's Mom

When I found out that Milo had LCP (Leggs-Calves-Perthes), my first priority was to meet with an orthopedic surgeon to get a second opinion. With this disease the ball of the hip dsintegrates and must be removed. He confirmed the diagnosis and suggested that I contact the breeder immediately, so that all other puppies from that litter could be checked. That is exactly what i did; she did make the calls and at this point, it seems that Milo and one other puppy had a problem. They isolated the problem to the "father" and he will not be bred again. She offered me another puppy, but I declined since I knew that we had a long road ahead with Milo. She also did not have the cash to pay me, and although I never pressed her for money, she sends me a small check every month. Mlo had the surgery at the end of October. His "boy wonder" (he's so young!) ortho did a fabulous job. The surgery was combined with physical therapy; today you would never know that he could have been lame......a total miracle. My husband calls him th the $5000 dollar dog (our insurance wouldn't pay a dime because it was genetic. 

I think the first priority here should be to take care of Coco. Everything else can wait. I was also upset with my breeder, but I concentrated on Milo. I understand the $ issue perfectly. Maybe a payment schedule can be reached with the surgeon. I wish you the best of luck. I do understand what you're going through.....I've been there.


----------



## Scooter's Family

Kris-Prayers to you and Coco, I'm sorry for you both and hope she does well with the surgery. Such a sad way to bring a loving little puppy into your home. I'm glad she's with you and you love her enough to obtain the best treatment for her.
:hug:


----------



## mimismom

I had begun to read this thread and then went out of town but now had the chance to see the entire story. I don't have an opinion for either the owner or the breeder that I wish to share as I don't want to appear biased.

I hope the best is worked out for both parties involved and that a solution is reached as amicably as possible. 
My thoughts are with Coco and hope she lives a good life. May the best treatment be found for her condition.


----------



## kelrobin

Lina said:


> Not to hijack this thread at all . . . I heard a statistic once that said that 10% of everyone you meet won't like you.


All right, that's it . . . I'm only going to meet 10% of you, and that means the dogs (they will all like me :biggrin1: )

:focus:


----------



## Julie

*Please do not anyone send money till this is resolved and till Kris and Jerome get a chance to work this out.*


----------



## Petaluna

> Bold emphasis mine. Carolina, those statistics obviously weren't including the people that meet me. In my case I'm sure it's 33% like, _33% dunno, and 33% hate_.


Maryam, that can't be true, I don't believe it! :biggrin1:

Ryan you were mentioning about how can you find a breeder you can trust... I go by my gut a lot (after making sure they do all the testing, etc.). Maybe that's a woman thing, but I got a very good feeling about mine which only gets confirmed each time I talk to her, and when I met her and saw all her dogs and setup, especially. Some very good breeders will ship dogs, and apparently it's quite safe and not particularly stressful, so I've been told, anyway, but only the dog knows I guess. In that case, you could probably get good recommendations from people here on where they got their dogs, and even if it's not local, maybe they would ship to you? Or make it a vacation and go pick him up.

As for the rest of this thread.... oy! My head hurts. I don't know what to think anymore, but it's clearly a complicated affair, and starting to feel like none of my business. I hope it comes to some sort of peaceful resolution for all involved, especially little Coco, who is just in the moment, living and loving.


----------



## lfung5

Kris,
I am sorry to read all of this. I feel sorry for everyone involved. I just don't understand why the breeder isn't giving you the money back you paid for Coco. That would make sense since you are shelling out all this money for surgery. How can a breeder not have any money and still do all that is required to be a good breeder? I know how much the testing costs and it seems one would have a lump of money to cover these thing. I know when Bella had her surgeries, her breeder paid for the surgeries by calling the hospital and using her credit card. Good luck with Coco and coming to some sort of agreement with Jerry.


----------



## KrisE

Jerry and I are trying to work this out. 

Also, I will not make a decision about coco and surgery til after Fridays second opinion. Please don't send any funding until a final decision is made please. 

I talked with my vet and she says not to do this surgery. It's more of an art and a crap shoot is her opinion.

coco would go through a tremendous ammount of pain if I choose to have them shave bone off of her Ulnar. I've been reading up on this for two days now and talking to some who have had this done with different results. 

I would probably have to liken this to when my brother went through hip replacement last year. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, none the less a little pup. Coco will be in extreme pain for several days then several months of difficult recovery. 

If anyone has any further advise about this surgery, please feel free.

If you have an opinion that will inflame the breeder/buyer issue, please don't.


----------



## Havtahava

I am curious why your vet thinks it is "more of an art" and a "crap shoot." I believe that an orthopedic specialist is going to be qualified to give you a solid opinion and it may benefit you to get a second opinion if you are in doubt. If you opt to go through with the surgery, it is imperative that you follow the directions and post-op recuperation to the letter.

Why would they shave the *ulna* (the name of the bone)? (Ulnar is a description of something relating to the ulna.) I've heard of cutting the bone, but not shaving it. Do you have the full name of the surgery? In an ulnar ostectomy, they cut the ulna to allow it to lengthen to the longer bone, the radius, which then allows the radius to grow straighter instead of continuing to curve. (This is my layman's definition, not a technical one.)


----------



## Havtahava

Also, in addition to cutting the ulna, many orthopedic specialists will also do a fat graft, placing some fat in the gap of the ulna to prevent it from growing together too fast (again hindering the radius from straightening). Here is more information on an ulnar ostectomy: http://www.asecvets.com/pdf/dimsurg/DimSurg1103.pdf


----------



## KrisE

I'm sorry, you're correct. 

I took a break and got a view of Coco's first outdoor potty. Pictures to follow. I think we all could use a smile


----------



## Havtahava

Is that the same surgery that was recommended for Coco?


----------



## KrisE

*pictures of coco having fun in the yard*

It was fun seeing her pee for the first time outside. Not the best photo's, she's pretty fast in open spaces.


----------



## suzyfrtz

I feel badly for everyone involved. This brings back sad memories for me. About 1991 we bought a Newfie puppy as a pet - such a sweet girl, our Babe. She began having problems running and even sitting quite early on. Her breeder took her back for a little while, to see how she was acting, and then took her to Michigan State University for evaluation. I remember just waiting and hoping. But too bad, so sad, the puppy was found to have no hip socket. Nothing could be done. She was a sweet, quiet, loving little thing. Maybe because she sensed all was not well with her. I cowardly never asked the breeder what became of her. I think I knew. At any rate, the breeder could not replace her right away as the rest of the litter was gone. She had some kind of agreement with another breeder, and we received another puppy from the 2nd breeder. She was our beloved Babe II. Unfortunately, she had to have surgery on her ulna later on. We paid for the surgery - it was no where near as expensive as Cocoa's. Babe II came through it with flying colors and lived a long happy life. Oh we do love our furry companions! Sometimes life is cruel, life is hard, and we have to do the best we can! My best to everyone involved and lots of love to Cocoa!


----------



## KrisE

Yes, from what I'm understanding. They shave /cut some off the top of the ulna to take pressure off the bone that is bending


----------



## Scooter's Family

Coco is beautiful! So nice to see her outside and happy.


----------



## KrisE

and more


----------



## KrisE

Could you please explain further about your success please? How old was your pup when this was done. What clued you in this needed to be done and was there any pain/limping longterm? How was the discomfort and recovery?

Thank you so much for sharing. It helps me decide what to do.

Kris


suzyfrtz said:


> I feel badly for everyone involved. This brings back sad memories for me. About 1991 we bought a Newfie puppy as a pet - such a sweet girl, our Babe. She began having problems running and even sitting quite early on. Her breeder took her back for a little while, to see how she was acting, and then took her to Michigan State University for evaluation. I remember just waiting and hoping. But too bad, so sad, the puppy was found to have no hip socket. Nothing could be done. She was a sweet, quiet, loving little thing. Maybe because she sensed all was not well with her. I cowardly never asked the breeder what became of her. I think I knew. At any rate, the breeder could not replace her right away as the rest of the litter was gone. She had some kind of agreement with another breeder, and we received another puppy from the 2nd breeder. She was our beloved Babe II. Unfortunately, she had to have surgery on her ulna later on. We paid for the surgery - it was no where near as expensive as Cocoa's. Babe II came through it with flying colors and lived a long happy life. Oh we do love our furry companions! Sometimes life is cruel, life is hard, and we have to do the best we can! My best to everyone involved and lots of love to Cocoa!


----------



## gelbergirl

Coco looks like she's eyeing squirrels!
Nice outdoor pics!


----------



## KrisE

Yes they are cutting the ulna. He didn't talk about the fat being placed to help with the healing process but I've been reading about it and will ask. I'm sure he's going to do this though. He's not very easy to get information from. The first time we talked, I was blubbering. The second time today was still difficult. Some Dr's just are better dealing with furries than the humans they're attached to I guess. I thought I'd create a list of questions for Fridays meeting.



Havtahava said:


> Is that the same surgery that was recommended for Coco?


----------



## peluitohavanese

Kris, I am sure Dr. Levine will give you a good second opinion. If he feels the surgery is not a good idea, he will be very frank.
Good luck and let us know how it goes.
Arlene


----------



## peluitohavanese

Aww lookkeee at that cuuuute nose on Coco!!!
Her coat is awesome!


----------



## KrisE

Thank you Arlene for the recommendation. I didn't feel it was my place to say. 

I can't say how much I appreciate all the support and love this community has given me these past two days. I haven't even had to call my Mom which is probably good. Of course the Scottie I got her 2 years ago has no problems LOL

My dad called me 5 days before Christmas 2 years ago asking if I'd find a dog for Mom as a Christmas present. I looked in the newspaper and found ONE for sale. She's a great dog and has had no issues. Its just the luck of the draw.


----------



## peluitohavanese

You never know. Dr. Levine might recommend no surgery, so let's wait and see what he says. I trust his opinion. He is one of the best veterinary orthopedic surgeons in the state and as I mentioned he practice in the clinic I take all my dogs to. A second opinion is always a good thing.


----------



## suzyfrtz

KrisE said:


> Could you please explain further about your success please? How old was your pup when this was done. What clued you in this needed to be done and was there any pain/limping longterm? How was the discomfort and recovery?
> Kris


Kris, this was about 17 years ago. I asked my husband if he could remember how old Babe II was...he thought "young," but I can't remember anything to jog my memory on exactly how young she was. She began exhibiting some of the signs the first Babe had - sitting with her leg thrown out to the side. The surgery consisted of shaving the socket to make the bone stay in the groove - hope that makes sense. I really don't remember how long she was convalescent, but it doesn't seem over-long. If there was an extended time, or any problem, I surely would remember. We often remember when things go wrong, not when they go right. She limped for a while while she was bandaged, but made a complete recovery. Not very much specific help, but she lived a long and good life after her surgery. 
S.


----------



## Elaine

KrisE,
Okay I have to weigh in here. Kimberly is giving you very good information to let you know what is going to happen if you decide to go through with the surgery. In the first place I do hope they do not just shave the bone, what they do is cut the bone so it no longer hold the longer bone in a bowed position. The problem with the procedure is that they need to be careful to not cut it to close to the elbow because it can cause problems later. You do need to have a second opinion and you do need to take your time as her growth plates will probably not close until she is around 16 or 18 months. You need to ask the vet to check the x-rays to see if the growth plates look like they are close to closing or if she has much longer time to go. If her growth is complete than her legs may not get any worse than they are now, but if she still has room to grow than it may become more of an issue. She is not in pain at the moment and yes the recovery will take some time and she may never have straight legs even after the surgery. I know this is a very hard thing to go through but the group is always here for support and yes your little girl is absolutely adorable.


----------



## PepperToast

Oh Coco, you are a dream. Thank God your mommy loves you soooooooooooooooooo much and is trying to do what is best!

Meeka


----------



## peluitohavanese

Sometimes they can tell with an x-ray if the growth plates have closed prematurely. Other times they need to do a bone biopsy to determine that. She is going to get a second opinion from a very reputable and well-known expert. I pray everything will work out for the best


----------



## boo2352

I'm just catching up on this thread. MacGyver had this surgery on his left leg when he was a puppy. The orthopedist recommended it to avoid major problems in the future. He's just turning 3 now, and, although his leg looks funny and he has a little less muscle bulk on that side, he doesn't seem to know there's any problem. 

Also, his breeder was very distressed and offered to pay for the surgery.


----------



## Melissa Miller

Ok... I have not read this thread. My eyes are sore at the end of the day. 

Based on information I have and from NOT reading ANY of this thread, I want to add a couple of things. 

NEVER POST PRIVATE EMAILS HERE! PLEASE! ITS JUST TACKY!
And it doesnt mean the thread wont get deleted if you delete those posts. Once you put them out there, people have them. We know this is the original intent. 

Lets please wade slowly in the donations arena. I dont want the forum to be used to pull at heart strings. I agree it has helped in the past.. and it was on a whim... but sadly, this could get out of hand fast. Again, I have NOT READ THIS THREAD, so dont take it personal. 

Dont sue me. And dont threaten to do it on my forum. This is all free to you, and costs me money, which was offset by calendar sales this year. ( thank you!) But it still takes a lot of time... Dawna and even Julie can confirm that. 

If you do sue me, please call Court TV and lets get a reality show out of it.


----------



## Beamer

Melissa, What an awesome idea! Everyone has their own reality show these days! No reason the Havanese forum can't?? Put a pilot together for Fox, and I'm sure they will go for it!

Ryan


----------



## KrisE

I wanted to say thank you for your efforts.

Along with the capability to sell pets nationally on internet sites also made communication possible for buyers. 

I remember the funny story one person shared here. In the "old days" buyers would take their sick dogs to shows with signs on them to warn others. 

This forum is very valuable for many reasons, but it also helps keep people accountable.


----------



## KrisE

I vote "deliverance" as the theme song.

I was amazed anyone had seen what I'd posted to back up my statements made here. I pulled them within a short time. I was on the defensive. But, I do have emails and proof that my statements made here are factual.

I never asked for donations. Quite a few were asking so I gave in, in order to move onto another subject. I asked not to donate at least til I know what I'm going to do. And, I realize this is more of a feel good for others. I'd do it myself, but I'd expect the donations would cover one set of x-ray's. This will cost me well over 3K before I'm done and several months of babysitting Coco if I decide it's best for her.

Now that I've had some rest. I wanted to share what I feel is the most effective way to determine how to buy a Havanese. You can look at all the pictures and read all the articles, but until you get your hands on a correct havanese, it's very difficult to know. 

I've attended several shows and some have opened up to me. They've shared their time showing me on their own dogs what is correct conformation. These are the women I'll do business with if I choose to find a sister for Coco to play with. 

Yes, soaps, health records... all this is very important. I'm NO expert. I'm just trying to share what I've learned the hard way.

Know that your decision will probably not include the option of sending back a sick dog so keep this in mind when you negotiate a contract. What if my dog needs expensive corrective surgery? 

I've never had a bond so strong with a pet before. So, usually returning a pet that needs help will not be an option you will be able to deal with. Even if I could send Coco back, my Husband and two sons would not allow it to happen. 

You're deciding on a companion you will probably have in your life for 15 years. Not much less in lenght than raising a child. Take as much care in your decision as you did in deciding to raise your own.


----------



## lfung5

Coco is beautiful! I am in love.


----------



## hedygs

Cocoa is delightful. Isn't it amazing how much love we have for our furbabies and even more so when we worry about their health.


----------



## peluitohavanese

I do wish to clarify a few things for the record :biggrin1: 
I am not the breeder who went over CoCo at a show. I was busy showing 2 of my other dogs but did see her and said hello to Kris and her husband. I had met Kris earlier this year at a show in St. Paul in January and she was very excited about her puppy she was getting. I offered her to join our local club and recommended some good places for training for conformation etc. 
The first I knew about Coco's legs was in this forum when I saw her soaped pix. She needed a second opinion from a doctor and I recommended well-known Dr. Levine. I am here for moral support and also to assist her and help her out as any reputable breeder would do. 
Kris, you are so right  Please, before you commit to a puppy, get the health testing results from the OFA website. If they are not posted there then find someone else. If a breeder can afford to spend $200 plus on hip and elbow x-rays, they certainly can afford the $30 recording fee to put them up on OFA for all to see. No excuses!
Please don't concentrate on a particular color or sex when looking for a dog. Find a breeder you feel comfortable with and get the best match for you and a healthy pup from a breeder with a health guarantee - and I'm not talking about these 48 to 72 hour guarantees... 
If you can visit the breeder's home and meet their dogs and see where they live, it is worth every minute of time it takes to do so.
Arlene


----------



## KrisE

I brought Coco to the second show because I wanted someone to take a look at her. Several breeders did for me. None with any ill intent and Arlene wasn't one of them.

Funny story, Bill and I packed the car, drove over two hours to Eau Claire to figure out each assumed the other packed the luggage. So, we drove over 2 hours home, slept and drove over 2 hours back again to the show. We spent at least an hour of the drive home blaming each other for not packing the luggage. Coco had all her stuff and was pretty upset with us for forgetting everything. She wanted to stay overnight and play with the other havanese at the hotel. 

No conspiracy here just stupidity


----------



## Scooter's Family

Melissa Miller said:


> If you do sue me, please call Court TV and lets get a reality show out of it.


If Court TV doesn't work out there's always Jerry Springer!!! ound:


----------



## Petaluna

A couple posts back Kris mentioned taking into consideration what you would do if your dog needed major corrective surgery. I was thinking about this the other day, and aside from looking into pet insurance that covers genetic defects (I think a few polices do), it's also important to consider how much you can spend if your dog needs some sort of expensive emergency care - hit by a car, eats something toxic, etc. Those emergency vet visits (and possible after-care) can add up into the thousands very quickly. I don't think too many people who spend 1500-2500 on a purebred Havanese are without the cash reserves to handle unexpected complications, but in our case and income bracket, I had to save up for both the puppy, her initial expenses, and enough of a reserve that I would not have to pull from credit if she has some large vet bills. I'm seriously thinking about getting her insurance, also, because at some point down the line, there will likely be some expensive medical costs. 

Worth considering before buying, because even if you get a perfect, healthy puppy, it's impossible to predict accidents and acute illness down the road. And even things like routine dental work can be ridiculously expensive.


----------



## kelrobin

Petaluna said:


> A couple posts back Kris mentioned taking into consideration what you would do if your dog needed major corrective surgery. I was thinking about this the other day, and aside from looking into pet insurance that covers genetic defects (I think a few polices do), it's also important to consider how much you can spend if your dog needs some sort of expensive emergency care - hit by a car, eats something toxic, etc. Those emergency vet visits (and possible after-care) can add up into the thousands very quickly. I don't think too many people who spend 1500-2500 on a purebred Havanese are without the cash reserves to handle unexpected complications, but in our case and income bracket, I had to save up for both the puppy, her initial expenses, and enough of a reserve that I would not have to pull from credit if she has some large vet bills. I'm seriously thinking about getting her insurance, also, because at some point down the line, there will likely be some expensive medical costs.
> 
> Worth considering before buying, because even if you get a perfect, healthy puppy, it's impossible to predict accidents and acute illness down the road. And even things like routine dental work can be ridiculously expensive.


Good point! I have talked on here before about how our 3 year old chocolate lab escaped and was hit by a car many years ago. One of her front legs was crushed, and she had chest trauma. The first vet missed that the break was a compound fracture which complicated things by infection, and our bills were well over $3000 (much upfront before the surgery). Our children were young at the time, and we didn't have the money just sitting around in reserve . . . and this was our boys' dog and we were going to do everything in our power to save her. Some nasty people said we should have put her to sleep, but the surgeon was wonderful and convinced us we could save her and her quality of life would be good because she was young and strong. We had no offers of help from anyone and just scraped it up so she could come home and heal. She was never quite the same (pins and plates had to hold her leg together). The plates eventually pulled loose and the surgeon offered to redo the surgery for free, but she was managing just fine and scar tissue had formed enough that she could use the leg amazingly well. I just could not put her through that again. She lived a long and wonderful life of 13 years, and I would do it again in a minute.

I am also considering pet insurance at this point. I also had a thought while reading through this thread yesterday that this whole experience could really freak out some potential buyers even just wanting a pet. While much of sweet Coco's story is informative, I remember, Kris, that you said you might dedicate a website with her story, and I think that would be a good way to educate the public as long as it is a positive spin. I'm sure there are threads on here about how to buy a puppy, but I did not see them until _after_ I got Jackson, and as many have said on here, the education needs to start before you buy.

BTW, Coco's pics just make me want to melt . . .


----------



## Julie

Just my two cents----with inflation--it's probably 10.00 by now..:becky:

But I think this thread has more to do with a relationship with a breeder and education on what you are looking for(knowing in advance(if you want to show and breed)looking and talking with different breeders,seeing what they have,having them mentor you while you search for the perfect show puppy,regardless of color)knowing what it is exactly that makes a show dog,a good potential for future breedings etc. I think it is quite common in the havanese in particular that a person wants a specific color and are after a certain look,you fall in love with a pup,and if you do not trust your breeder....you got problems. I knew exactly what I wanted too....and though my outcome was ok---I was just looking for a "perfect "pet.

This is just my opinion,as I see both sides of this and honestly feel bad for both....no winners in this arrangement at all. I still pray that Coco will be ok and that Kris and Jerome resolve their differences and work out a solution,then happily move forward to a better "mesh" of personalities.


----------



## peluitohavanese

I agree with what you have just said. 
Sometimes I get calls or emails and potential puppy buyers are looking for a particular color and certain markings (even in certain places of their cute little bodies - I'm not kidding). I sit here and think, goodness...as a breeder I can health test my dogs, screen potential homes like a hawk, sell my pups on contract with a good health guarantee, mentor and be there for my puppy buyers for the life of the pup....but I can't mess with Mother Nature and get puppies with certain markings, of a certain sex, etc etc. They are what they are when they are born, and they are happy, loving, healthy babies. I think that is what should matter the most. Not the color, not the sex, not the markings, but a happy, well socialized puppy and a breeder that you can count on for the life of the pup.


----------



## JASHavanese

Kris, did you register Coco and if so, was it in the last month? Don't you get a free month of pet insurance with the registration papers with the option of extending it?


----------



## Julie

peluitohavanese said:


> I agree with what you have just said.
> Sometimes I get calls or emails and potential puppy buyers are looking for a particular color and certain markings (even in certain places of their cute little bodies - I'm not kidding). I sit here and think, goodness...as a breeder I can health test my dogs, screen potential homes like a hawk, sell my pups on contract with a good health guarantee, mentor and be there for my puppy buyers for the life of the pup....but I can't mess with Mother Nature and get puppies with certain markings, of a certain sex, etc etc. They are what they are when they are born, and they are happy, loving, healthy babies. I think that is what should matter the most. Not the color, not the sex, not the markings, but a happy, well socialized puppy and a breeder that you can count on for the life of the pup.


Okay Arlene--Now how am I gonna talk you out of that cute lil' fur muffin "Tigger" ??? I think I am in love!:kiss:


----------



## peluitohavanese

LOL!!! He is Waterloo from our ABBA litter  I was trying to find a name that is fitting for him and absolutely fun personality and Tigger it is!!!:whoo:

Here is a picture of Tigger. He reminds me soooo much of his daddy MC in his face, body and naughty and mischievous personality hee eeound:


----------



## JASHavanese

peluitohavanese said:


> I agree with what you have just said.
> Sometimes I get calls or emails and potential puppy buyers are looking for a particular color and certain markings (even in certain places of their cute little bodies - I'm not kidding). .


I'm sure you're not kidding. :biggrin1: If I'm looking for a dog to special, I'm going to also be looking at the colors and where they're at and yup, I'm going to be picky about it. Where color falls can give an optical illusion on the structure of the dog. We went through that and Kimberly came to our rescue at a National and said to try something because it looked like the dog had no neck the way the color changed at that point. My husband tried what Kimberly said to do when he showed her and she made the cut and took second in sweeps in her class. Dang, I still haven't cashed that check ound:
Oops, forgot this. In the group ring color can make a huge difference. We always managed to get next to a bleached out all white dog and we had ticking. Put the two side by side and mine looked like she needed a bath even though she was sparking clean


----------



## Julie

OMG Arlene!:faint: He is absolutely ADORABLE! I'm in love! He is simply one of the cutest guys I have seen!

Wait! He's in Waterloo?:bolt: Really? Waterloo Iowa? :bolt: That's not too far from me..................:bolt: I'm coming sweetie!:bolt: I'm coming!:bolt:


----------



## tikaboo

*I am glad you are doing better.*

Kris,
I am so glad you are doing better today. Sleep sometimes is the best remedy!eace:


----------



## Julie

Oh crap! I think I mis-read that Waterloo thing. Darn it!:brick:


You know--in all seriousness--I do think it must be kinda hard to be a havanese breeder because of all the different color variations etc. and then markings etc. People see what is cute to them and seek that color combination.....sometimes blind to other real issues. That being said,I wonder how many get a HUGE surprise when the hav changes color on them. Ever wonder that? I liked the sables alot,till I saw they mostly ended up cream or white later and lose all that beautiful intense color they once had. As breeders,do people comment on that? Do you get feed back? Do you think most puppy buyers realize this in advance?

Just think how easy life would be if you bred labs....yellow,black and brown. Or better yet---scotties.....how's a black one suit ya?ound:


----------



## peluitohavanese

I understand if you are looking for a show dog or a dog to special.....but I have had specific requests about marking and color for companion pets!


----------



## micki2much

Julie said:


> Oh crap! I think I mis-read that Waterloo thing. Darn it!:brick:
> 
> Just think how easy life would be if you bred labs....yellow,black and brown. Or better yet---scotties.....how's a black one suit ya?ound:


THAT is what makes this breed sooo dangerous...you end up wanting one in EVERY color and EVERY color variation!!!!!!! ound:ound:


----------



## peluitohavanese

LOL!! That's what I love about this breed though. They never fail to surprise us. I have a girl that is 5 months old and she is registered as a gold brindle parti-color....well guess what?? the roots in her head are coming in as a silver brindle.. 


Here is Lucia a.k.a. "Lucy Goosey":biggrin1:

You can see some of the silver coming in in her face.


----------



## peluitohavanese

I live only 2 hours and 45 minutes from Waterloo.....  
Are you going to see the Havs at the Waterloo show this weekend? One of my little girls will be there. Sweet little Dancer who is a big sis of Tigger.
Arlene


----------



## micki2much

OK, that's just GREAT Arlene...NOW I want Lucy Goosey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## peluitohavanese

ound:Since we are having so much fun..... Here is Tigger's brother Trooper 
hee hee!! I'm baaaaaad.... I know....


----------



## Jill in Mich

micki2much said:


> OK, that's just GREAT Arlene...NOW I want Lucy Goosey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


ound:ound:ound:


----------



## JASHavanese

peluitohavanese said:


> I understand if you are looking for a show dog or a dog to special.....but I have had specific requests about marking and color for companion pets!


You've had a lot more experience placing puppies but what I found was that if someone was getting really specific like that for a pet puppy it was an emotional issue where they were trying to bring back something from the past.
People are interesting critters :biggrin1:


----------



## peluitohavanese

:


----------



## peluitohavanese

Sometimes.... othertimes it just makes you wonder, but we try to do our best. I always joke around and say ... "Ok I'll make sure I press the red sable, parti with markings on the face and tushy button on the puppy-making machine"... and they laugh. :biggrin1:


----------



## Petaluna

aw, she's very cute. Well, I have to say I had a general color and a sex preference also and I think that is perfectly ok because I knew if I waited long enough, I could get the combo I wanted (color preference, good temperament match for us & health) from a good breeder, and I did, and didn't have to wait that long. I got a detailed description of the parents' temperament, coat type, structure, and their health tests were posted on the OFA site, so I felt comfortable putting a deposit down on a just born puppy, knowing it was likely she would be a good match for us. I am most attracted to the darker havs or the ones that have some color. All white or cream is beautiful, but makes me think tear stains, harder to keep a white coat clean, and mistaken for Maltese, so I admire them from afar. I was open to all all black, black with white markings, irish pied, silver, etc. And - Irish pied it is!


----------



## JASHavanese

peluitohavanese said:


> Sometimes.... othertimes it just makes you wonder, but we try to do our best. I always joke around and say ... "Ok I'll make sure I press the red sable, parti with markings on the face and tushy button on the puppy-making machine"... and they laugh. :biggrin1:


Let me know when you find the button for Kubrick's coloring :biggrin1:


----------



## JASHavanese

Petaluna said:


> And - Irish pied it is!


The puppy in your picture?


----------



## Petaluna

Jan, you mean me? If so, yes, that's her. The breeder told me right after she was born that she was irish pied, anyway. She's got the white collar and black saddle. I'm not sure though if her black is supposed to come around the front of the chest. Anyway, whatever it is, I like it.  she's got some faint white eyebrows, too.


----------



## Havtahava

peluitohavanese said:


> Please, before you commit to a puppy, get the health testing results from the OFA website. If they are not posted there then find someone else. If a breeder can afford to spend $200 plus on hip and elbow x-rays, they certainly can afford the $30 recording fee to put them up on OFA for all to see. No excuses!


Yes, yes, yes!


> Please don't concentrate on a particular color or sex when looking for a dog. Find a breeder you feel comfortable with and get the best match for you and a healthy pup from a breeder with a health guarantee - and I'm not talking about these 48 to 72 hour guarantees...
> If you can visit the breeder's home and meet their dogs and see where they live, it is worth every minute of time it takes to do so.
> Arlene


Again, yes, yes, yes!



Petaluna said:


> ... it's also important to consider how much you can spend if your dog needs some sort of expensive emergency care - hit by a car, eats something toxic, etc. Those emergency vet visits (and possible after-care) can add up into the thousands very quickly. I don't think too many people who spend 1500-2500 on a purebred Havanese are without the cash reserves to handle unexpected complications... And even things like routine dental work can be ridiculously expensive.


Exactly! So many people think the initial cost is ridiculous, but it can easily be a drop in the bucket, especially if you decide to add the ex-pens, the cute bowls, the booster seat in the car, the stroller, the cute clothing, etc. 



Julie said:


> But I think this thread has *more to do with a relationship with a breeder and education on what you are looking for*(knowing in advance)looking and talking with different breeders,seeing what they have,having them mentor you while you search for the perfect show puppy,regardless of color)knowing what it is exactly that makes a show dog,a good potential for future breedings etc. I think it is quite common in the havanese in particular that a person wants a specific color and are after a certain look,you fall in love with a pup,and if you do not trust your breeder....you got problems. I knew exactly what I wanted too....and though my outcome was ok---I was just looking for a "perfect "pet.


 (Bold emphasis mine) Absolutely Julie! I can't even begin to recall how many times I have tried to encourage people to find the breeder and build the relationship first. You have to know that you two will mesh well. Learn about the breed. Learn, learn, learn. Then start looking for the puppy. If you want to enter the arena of showing and eventually breeding, it is even more important to educate yourself - and with more than just one person's word.



JASHavanese said:


> Where color falls can give an optical illusion on the structure of the dog. We went through that and Kimberly came to our rescue at a National and said to try something because it looked like the dog had no neck the way the color changed at that point. My husband tried what Kimberly said to do when he showed her and she made the cut and took second in sweeps in her class.


 I still remember that Jan! It was funny because your bitch is gorgeous and she had the oddest look as I stood across the ring and realized that illusion was a potential problem. One marking in a particular spot can give you the wrong impression of a dog so fast. I'm so glad it worked out for you.


----------



## JASHavanese

Havtahava said:


> I'm so glad it worked out for you.


I'm glad you came racing over!! :hug:


----------



## SMARTY

Now I am going to $ue over this thread, you know I can not look at puppy pictures!!!!!!It only makes me want what I do not need.


----------



## Carefulove

JASHavanese said:


> You've had a lot more experience placing puppies but what I found was that if someone was getting really specific like that for a pet puppy it was an emotional issue where they were trying to bring back something from the past.
> People are interesting critters :biggrin1:


You hit the nail right on the head!


----------



## Julie

Arlene,
I love Trooper too! He is so sweet....now I have to say---that Lucy Goosey has such a unique look that I just LOVE! I have only seen 1 other hav with those markings and coloring in my almost 4 years of drooling over havanese. The dog is at Happy Trails Havanese here in Iowa and his name is Ted E.Bear. I could fall fast and hard for a hav like this too. I never knew what it would be called.....have you ever had a pup like that before or since?


----------



## KrisE

I got the emails but never signed up. i've signed up too often with 30 day programs and had a problem cancelling if I didn't like the program.
Besides... from a report I watched, the insurance offered does not include congenital defects in coverage. I could be wrong.
This was a local report on pet insurance that I watched on TV. Also, the reason I didn't choose to sign up for this one.



JASHavanese said:


> Kris, did you register Coco and if so, was it in the last month? Don't you get a free month of pet insurance with the registration papers with the option of extending it?


----------



## peluitohavanese

Not one that has begun going to a silver brindle, but yes I have had a few with her markings. Here are some and of course her daddy who is MC


----------



## good buddy

peluitohavanese said:


> I understand if you are looking for a show dog or a dog to special.....but I have had specific requests about marking and color for companion pets!


Hey, I resemble that remark!  I do think I told Kimberly black around the eyes, the mouth, the feet and the bum! All those areas that get dirty! ound: Of course a black saddle and tail tip too heehee!! I see what you breeders like too! Neither of my boys have these marks and I love them just as they are, but when you're dreaming of your future Hav, I guess I just dream big!


----------



## Julie

really? That is the same dog? Wow! 

This dog (Ted E. Bear) is an adult male that looks identical to your Lucy. Do you expect Lucy to whiten out then and go silver on her ears,similar to the adult pix?


----------



## peluitohavanese

And why not dream!! Sometimes Mother Nature surprises us with the coolest markings 
This is my Samantha  I just adore this girl. She is so loving and sweet - my panda baby


----------



## peluitohavanese

Oh no. Those are 4 different dogs. The first one is Tabitha, the second is Ziggy, the third Endora, and the fourth is MC the dad.


----------



## good buddy

Yes! Samantha has some awesum markings. Gotta love the 'stashe!


----------



## luv3havs

Yeah,
I'm dreaming of a small red or chocolat or beige(?) for my third. LOL

The first 2 times it was all about temperament, health, and socialization.

I have my 2 perfect luvs but I'd be willing to wait for my dream pup. 

I think if you are spending all that money, it's perfectly fine to wait for exactly what you want (within reason). 

And it IS possible, look at Diane! She's getting everything she hoped for.


----------



## peluitohavanese

Absolutely! It's the waiting part that can be difficult for some people...:frusty:


----------



## Julie

Samantha is so cute! I love those markings too! Gosh-it must be a treat to see all these uniquely different marked havs. I know sometimes I go to the McKay rainbow of colors website just to look at all the different colors! That also helps me not "fall head over heels" for a cute available puppy!ound:

I honestly think every hav puppy is cute in their own way...all colors.....all markings...there is just something about that cute little furry face and head tilt that does a person in!


----------



## irnfit

When I first started looking, I wanted a black and white. What I really, really wanted was a dog with a great temperment most of all. I got very lucky with my Kodi. He is not from a breeder who tests. Found him through the internet, so I am doubly lucky. He is very healthy (so far, knock wood). Kodi is a gold/sable, who is now champagne/chocolate. It doesn't matter that he is not b/w. I did get my b/w, Shelby, a year later.


----------



## Carefulove

peluitohavanese said:


> Absolutely! It's the waiting part that can be difficult for some people...:frusty:


:amen:


----------



## juliav

It's interesting that we all have color and markings preferences.* I adore irish pies, as they mostly keep their color. My kids on the other hand wouldn't hear of the dog with a black face. They claim they can't bond with a dog whose face they can't see. So we got Bugsy, no problem with bonding with a cream dog. lol* My standard male is also cream, or to be exact champagne - quite a gorgeous color.* My family is partial to lighter colors.* But, someday I will have my black irish pied baby.


----------



## Janizona

Havanique said:


> i
> So sit on your hands people.
> This is between me and Kris.
> Jerome


Oh Jerome, you are so wrong. THis isn't between you and Kris. This is about our breed, this is about our club, this is about the code of ethics of the Havanese Club of America. If you want this to go away, then do the right thing. It's simple. You know what the answer is and quite going on an on and on about crap that doesn't matter. No one cares about your stories.The dog needs surgery and YOU are responsible.


----------



## ama0722

Julia- That is exactly how I felt. I have always adored pieds and I finally got my own (I swear I checked everything off my list first and even went up to see Dasher's personality before deciding but getting the color combination I wanted was icing on the cake!) but my DH felt exactly how your kids do. He doesn't like dog's with dark faces as he says you can't see their emotions the same. Well, I think Dash shows him tons of emotion and makes up for it with personality galore and bouncing in your face when you get home (he is just making sure you see his emotions!!!)


----------



## kelrobin

juliav said:


> It's interesting that we all have color and markings preferences.* I adore irish pies, as they mostly keep their color. My kids on the other hand wouldn't hear of the dog with a black face. They claim they can't bond with a dog whose face they can't see. So we got Bugsy, no problem with bonding with a cream dog. lol* My standard male is also cream, or to be exact champagne - quite a gorgeous color.* My family is partial to lighter colors.* But, someday I will have my black irish pied baby.


Julia, that is cute about your kids. Once they are out of the house, you can get what you want! I wanted black and white, then I chose the Havanese after doing much research. Then I needed to find a breeder, found a breeder close by who had a good reputation. Then I found the photo of Jackson's dad and that was that . . . I wanted the dad! So I go to see the mother (all white) and the fantastic dad (parti black and white), and there is ONE puppy, so it was him or move on. I think I would have had a very hard time picking from a litter, so the decision was easy since it was a single birth. I saw all the health testing on the parents, and it was extensive, but would ask for more now that I know what I know. Thank goodness Jackson has been healthy so far . . . I have been very fortunate.

And Jackson's head had blond and silver in it the first year but it has just about faded out . . .


----------



## luv3havs

Janet,

It's good to see a breeder come forward with such straight talk.
You are right on target.


----------



## Scooter's Family

I didn't have a single preference! We thought we'd like a girl but as soon as the breeder told us to come see the puppies and then decide that's just what we did. With Murphy we didn't have any choice! Both of my boys are love-bugs and I can't imagine not having them! I'm surprised to hear that people try to be so specific, seems as though they're setting themselves up for disappointment in the long run.


----------



## micki2much

I have always had boys...think I want a girl next time, they have the cutest outfits and I love the color pink (DH won't let me use pink on them) ound:


----------



## juliav

[email protected] said:


> Once they are out of the house, you can get what you want!


Unfortunately, my kids will be out of the house a lot sooner than I can get another dog. They are 16 and 18, but my three dogs are only almost 5, 3 and almost 3. We also still have our 12 year old kitty, so I am on puppy moratorium indefinitely.


----------



## pjewel

peluitohavanese said:


> Not one that has begun going to a silver brindle, but yes I have had a few with her markings. Here are some and of course her daddy who is MC


Arlene,

Your photos remind me so much of Bailey as a baby.


----------



## trueblue

Wow...Samantha's facial markings really remind me of Cricket's. OK...Cricket's eye spots aren't as big, but aren't they similar?


----------



## mybella

Well, when I got Bella there was white with markings or black/white. I wanted white so I could be assured of her color when she grew up. I read so much about the color changes. Being conservative I went with white to be safe. But, now I am hooked on her unique eyes (hazel/green) and adorable pink nose. I guess there is some chocolate in her past. So, now I want another with the same eyes / nose. Send the chocolate show defects to me!

Marie


----------



## KrisE

*Ortho Findings*

I got the Ortho report today. It's in pdf and contains my personal information so I'm going to copy/paste here the information some were asking as to his findings:

University of Minnesota
Veterinary Medical Center
Kris xxxx
COCO
FEMALE INTACT
CANINE
HAVANESE
Dr Charles Mcbrien
Conclusion
Coco was presented to the University of Minnesota Veterinary Medical Center for evaluation of Angular limb deformity
RELATED HISTORY:
Coco is an eighteen-week-old Havanese that you purchased approximately seven weeks ago. Coco was traveling with you at a dog show recently and you were advised to seek the opinion of an orthopedist. You were also
interested in ruling out other disease processes associated with development in the Havanese (liver disease and shunts, cardiac abnormalites, ocular changes). Coco is clinically bright and alert and a normally behaved and fun puppy at home.
PREVIOUS DIAGNOSTICS, TREATMENT, MEDICATIONS
None
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
__
PHYSICAL EXAM FINDINGS: Coco is bright and alert. She does have some cranial bowing of both forelimbs and a somewhat "sickle-hocked" apperance.
TESTS:
Radiographs of the forelimbs: Cranial bowing of both forelimbs (radius curvus) with moderate to marked incongruity of both elbows.

ASSESSMENT:
Coco certainly has an angular limb deformity. There is assymetric growth of the radius and ulna in both limbs producing radius curvus. Coco's hind limbs also seem abnormal, but we did not radiograph them today.
TREATMENT and RECOMMENDATIONS
Today we discussed corrective osteotomies vs. monitoring serially to see how she develops. At this time, we are planning osteotomies in the next one to two months.
Chas McBrien, DVM
Resident, Small Animal Surgery
DOB DEC 06, 2008
Dr Charles Mcbrien
APR 16, 2009


----------



## Janizona

I've been chatting with Kris privately on the forum and on regular email. The breeder needs to just make this right, it doesn't matter what, when, why or any of that. This is the breeders responsibility to fix. He can just pay the vet bill directly as he'd need to do that if he got the pup back anyway. Of course she should be spayed before signing off on AKC registration. This whole situation could have been easily avoided and its a shame it came to this. 

I am sorry for what you've gone thru. The breeders I know would have paid for that surgery without a second thought because that was the right thing to do.


----------



## peluitohavanese

Aww what a cutie!


----------



## peluitohavanese

Bailey is adorable!!


----------



## peluitohavanese

I will be interested in hearing what Dr. Levine says at your appointment tomorrow. 
Arlene


----------



## Kathy

KrisE said:


> By the way, the Surgeon is Charles S. McBrien, Jr., DVM, Resident Small Animal Surgery. He's in surgery right now, but I left a message to get final information and schedule her surgery. I'll still go in for a second opinion on Friday with this other group.
> 
> I'm going to schedule her surgery for a month out. This should give me plenty of time to get the money together and yet be within the 2 month window he suggested.


Kris,
this is a regular vet and really one that has not finished his residency. I would suggest you take her to a specilist. She is a young puppy and doing surgery on the bones before the growth plates close should be something a specialist explains and suggests to you.


----------



## KrisE

Kathy said:


> Kris,
> this is a regular vet and really one that has not finished his residency. I would suggest you take her to a specilist. She is a young puppy and doing surgery on the bones before the growth plates close should be something a specialist explains and suggests to you.


He'd talked to two other surgeons at the hospital to confirm before he made this suggestion. I'm meeting with Dr. Levine tomorrow and if he states it's best to perform surgery, I might ask to meet with a surgeon at the UofM for a final decision or just go by what Dr Levine says.

Jerry had asked I look into this 9 month old as a replacement for Coco because he states he has no money and feels she would be excellent show/breed stock for me. She does look very pretty, here's her trial breeding: http://www.havanesegallery.hu/pair_en.php?id1=22937&id2=23248

He is going to grow Boomers coat out and work on getting his CH.

I really don't want to take on another dog, none-the-less a show dog right now, but I'm so tired of dealing with this I'm looking for solutions to fit Jerry's financial situation.

I asked Jerry if it was ok if I got opinions from other breeders and he said it was fine.

I'm sorry to say after confirming with 4 other breeders, this dog would not be considered a good foundation stock for me. Neither of the parents are champions. In addtion, after Jerry told me neither were health tested yet, I felt it was in my best interest to decline his offer.

I've emailed Jerry asking he either pay me a refund in payments or charge Coco's treatement on a credit card with a contract absolving him of any further action. If at some time he comes up with a good puppy which would make a good show dog/breeder with both parents tested and has champion lines, I'd be happy to look at her for my program.

I'll report back tomorrow. I'm assuming by the time I'm back from the Ortho tomorrow at around 2pm, that Jerry will have also given me his answer.

I hope he does the right thing here. I'm prepared to file a suit in court, a claim with the HCA and contact the media to do a story on this with an emphasis on the current bill which if passed will protect buyers from puppy fraud on the internet.

To give a run-down of my costs so far: I paid Jerry 2,500 for Coco to be co-owner as a show dog and breeder stock, sent a trolly in exchange for another 350 towards his 3000 sole ownership fee. Have paid over 600 in examinations so far at the UofM. This doesn't include my two visits to the vet's office for her 2 sets of shots of course. Tomorrow, I'll pay a consultation fee with Dr. Levine. And, countless hours dealing wiht all of this along with tremendous stess. I'm not sleeping well so I called my Dr and she put me on an anti-depressant which should help me through this. I've been told to repair her front legs would cost 2,500, but this hasn't been decided yet. Her back legs haven't been looked at, but they are showing signs of the same issue.

I'll know more tomorrow, then go from there.


----------



## HavaneseSoon

I am sooooooooooooo sorry you are having to go through all this stress and heartache. The breeder needs to do the right thing. We are here for you...


----------



## ama0722

Kris- I thought you felt you couldn't handle a replacement right now? Or you thinking of giving her back and taking the replacement instead now? I wouldn't take in a new puppy if mine needed major surgery and major recuperation afterwards. Also if this could be one of many surgeries, consider your finances if you are seeking help with donations for Coco's surgery, another puppy's first year is expensive. 

Also I really hope before you consider another Havanese and talk about breeding her- you really look at health testing, get soaped photos, etc. While I didn't look at offa, neither of those dogs (on the pedigree you sent) are old enough to have their hips even tested... so why would you consider taking a puppy from that litter ESPECIALLY after what happened with Coco without you getting her parents health testing?


----------



## peluitohavanese

Agreed. 
Work with Coco to get this resolved first. Once you and Coco have gotten past this ordeal....then, if you want another puppy for show, do your homework and make sure that if this will be your foundation bitch, it is the absolutely best one you can find. It is not entirely impossible to get a nice starter girl from a good breeder. You may have to co-own because in addition to that you will also have a mentor.
Arlene


----------



## Janizona

This thread will tell you all you need for your next pup/dog:
http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?p=248087#post248087

I told Kris privately that she should pass on that dog. No health testing on her the dog or her parents, no championships either. I don't know what this breeder is thinking anymore....sheesh.


----------



## KrisE

This was his solution, not mine. To take the 9 month old, keep her and show/breed and/or sell her to fund coco's vet bills.

I've considered it and now told him my answer.


----------



## Missy

Kris, I just have to say Coco is beautiful and I know why she has stolen your heart. I do feel for you- but also Jerry as well. I think perhaps as you have stated in earlier posts that these public complaints probably didn't help any in the negotiations. Breeders don't actually make much if any profit on their dogs. 

I actually find it hard to believe that you could not find $2500 to pay for this surgery if after you get all the opinions you feel it is what is best for Coco. Although a lot of money... it is not unusual to have to pay that at the Vet and something we all have to think of when taking in a living creature. I agree in a perfect world the breeder would do the right thing, and it sounds like he is willing to, just not until he can sell one of his show dogs. This is what the rainy day funds are for and if all else fails credit cards and I suspect the surgeon would even set up a payment plan for you.

About a year ago Cash got incredibly sick incredibly fast. On Tuesday he had a fever on Friday he was lame. I went to an emergency vet the first night, my vet twice, finally a neurological specialist on that friday. $3500 of tests later- they still didn't know for sure what was wrong with his but sent him home with two antibiotics and prednisone if the antibiotics didn't work. Luckily they did and he got better and we have never looked back. (although next time either of my boys are sick-- I am going to ask before the expensive tests-- if it's a, b or c what is the treatment because that is what ended up happening anyway) 

My point is we had no recourse but we did what we had to do for a family member. 

I don't mean this to sound harsh. I do feel for you. My boys are not what I expected--even though not show dogs, you buy a dog like a Havanese with expectations and you hope they are healthy... Both my boys are huge for the breed and Cash has had many medical issues for his short life including deformed front legs... but I love them dearly. An animal is not are car or other property--- they are unique and if they come with defects that is just the way the cookie crumbles. 

That being said... My heart is breaking for you and beautiful little Coco and I would be happy to donate what I can to help with Coco's surgery if the forum puts together a fund.


----------



## tikaboo

*his health guarantee*



Missy said:


> I do feel for you- but also Jerry as well. Breeders don't actually make much if any profit on their dogs.


_What? This is not about how much money he makes, it is about his health guarantee. This guy is a long time breeder, a member in HCA with a code of ethics he has vowed to honor. This is a matter of principle and integrity. If the justice system worked that way you know what kind of world we'd live in. 
If A guy who is the sole provider for his family. If he Knowingly drives drunk, in spite of laws and real consequences for doing such a foolish thing. If he hurts or kills someone, should he not be held accountable. I am sure this same guy would feel terrible after the fact, especially since he was the sole provider for his family. My point although extreme is, there is a principle of justice here. _

_Yes Jerry, not Kris should have been prepared to handle a situation like this, as he sold this dog with a *life time health guarantee*. If he can't afford to stand behind his health guarantee he should really think about whether he should carry on. _

"and it sounds like he is willing to, just not until he can sell one of his show dogs....This is what the rainy day funds are for and if all else fails credit cards and I suspect the surgeon would even set up a payment plan for you." _Exactly, to honor his health guarantee he should have had a contingency plan in place and a fund set up a long time ago. _

_Your story, although touching about how you handled your situation when your dog got sick, is irrelevant to the situation. Even if you chose not to use a health guarantee, if it was an option at the time, doesn't make the person who chooses to use a health guarantee, that was provided to them at the time of purchase, somehow irresponsible. _

_She is not asking Jerry to pay for Coco's medical bills because of her negligence. Coco didn't 'swallow something she shouldn't have or get hit by a car. She has a Defect in her legs that was a direct result of a hereditary defect passed down through breeding. _

My point is we had no recourse but we did what we had to do for a family member. _She has a recourse, the life time health guarantee. That is the whole point here._


----------



## ama0722

tikaboo said:


> _Your story, although touching about how you handled your situation when your dog got sick, is irrelevant to the situation. Even if you chose not to use a health guarantee, if it was an option at the time, doesn't make the person who chooses to use a health guarantee, that was provided to them at the time of purchase, somehow irresponsible. _
> 
> .[/I][/COLOR]


I think it is very relevant as Kris started this thread about whether she should keep Coco and part of that decision is going to be the cost associated with keeping a dog who has CD. There have been several havanese turned into rescue because people couldn't afford the cost for vet care that was needed- for those at National, remember little Isabella? Her family coudln't afford her surgery. We have had liver shunt dogs turned in as well. Reality is puppies are expensive. Sick puppies are even more expensive. MOST breeder contracts for any dog even with a lifetime guarantee replace the puppy and not all costs associated with any medical condition. I didn't think Kris even received a contract with Jerry's guarantee either? I hope Coco is fine but say this is the first of many surgeries. I had a good friend who bought a yorkie from a reputable breeder. She ended up having 3 surgeries associated with her liver shunt in a two year period. The breeder gave her the cost of the dog back. However, she chose to do anything to save her dog. At what point does the breeder get out of a lifetime guarantee? Every dog owner has their limits, I think there are going to be limits for every breeder as well.


----------



## peluitohavanese

This is a very good point. I am not saying any one in particular is to blame, but I do wish to make some valid points:
1. Before buying a puppy, do your homework: check the breeder out and visit if you can, check the health testing on the parents, make sure the breeder is showing their dogs in the conformation ring and puts titles on their dogs.
2. I can't stress this more than I have - you need to be color and sex blind when looking for a puppy. Health, temperament are first, conformation second, color and sex of the puppy last. The more detailed your request, the harder it is to find a puppy. Kris is aware of this  She approached me and another breeder here in MN looking for a chocolate female...well, we don't breed chocolates. If we get one in a litter, that is great, but it is not our focus, so that pretty much ruled us out as a breeder for her puppy. Point I am trying to make is you can end up making it more difficult for yourself to get the right pup if there are many pre-conditions.
3. Buy from a breeder who sells with a contract. A contract is NOT a bill of sale. A contract spells out the agreement made between the puppy buyer and the breeder. I always send a copy ahead of time and have the buyer read it first. Then I have them over to my home for a visit. We go over everything on the contract and I answer questions and explain everything related to the health guarantee. 
4.Buy from a breeder who offers a health guarantee in writing. Health guarantees will vary from breeder to breeder. I know some that don't offer one in writing but will be there for the puppy for it's lifetime. It's a matter of trusting and learning who you are working with. For example, I offer a written health guarantee and it clearly spells out that I will refund up to the purchase price of the dog. I don't offer beyond that. If I choose to do so, it is out of my own decision, but the contract binds me to the purchase price of the dog. 
4. Make sure your breeder is a person you get along with because you will have a relationship with this person for the life time of this puppy.
Arlene


----------



## KrisE

*Back from the Vet*

He suggested to get her in within 2 weeks for this surgery. Her left leg is the serious one, but he wants to do the right one since we're already doing the left one. 
If it weren't for the left leg, he'd suggest waiting it out. If I do this now, they can avoid further bowing and damage, which would lesson the likelyhood of further surgery down the road. Also, he thinks the arthritis will be less if taken care of now. Either way she'll have arthritus.

They basically break the bone away from the other, put a fat pad on the top of it so it takes awhile to attach again, giving the long bone freedom to grow. The cost comes to $2335.00. Everyone there knew she was a havanese immediately. Many breeders bring their dogs there and I didn't have to tell him what issues Havanese have. I feel very confident these guys know the breed and what's best. He said most havanese have some bowing, but this is to the point he feels should be addressed.

The clinic doesn't accept payment options. But, they suggested I could sign up for carecredit.com which can set up a payment plan and gives me 3 months interest free.

I've attached the report, but I'm going to type it out so it's easier to read:

No lameness, no pain in elbows. Mild carpal valgus billaterally. Mild "cow hock", no patella luxation or pain in back limbs.
Rads from UofM show bilateral radius curvus consistent with chondrodysplastic syndrome. Left elbow incongruity. Right elbow incongruity is at present mild to normal.

Recommendations: Bilateral ulnar ostectomies, done as soon as it is feasible. It should be noted that this is the best advise for the course of action based solely on radiographic assessment and the expectations that elbow incongruity will become a clinical problem. 
This dog is not clinically lame at this point, and may never be so. The left osteotomy is based on radiographic abnomality. The right is based on the appearance of the left and that the right is likely to become silimlar to the left. Due to this dog's age and the early/mild stage, corrective osteotomies/fixation of the radius are unlikely to be necessary, but they should be performed after 9 months of age as a seperate procedure if they are deemed necessary at that point. 
Complications include persistant DJD (arthritus), lameness, radial fracture, infection. Bandaging for a short period will be performed. Exercise resriction for 6-8 weeks is necessary.


----------



## KrisE

Also, I wanted to add. Each state has different laws. I've looked into this and breeders should really take a look themselves.

I know that in Minnesota, if you sell a dog that has problems like this, you'd have to give the price back plus pay medical expenses up to the original price. It's called the pet lemon law. 

I did my homework. End of discussion. I asked for all the things everyone is supposed to. I did not go looking for a choocolate dog with the "no matter what attitude". I felt if I looked long enough I'd find one that was healthy and of show quality. 

I can prove this in emails. Please don't incinuate I didn't do my homework. 

I've talked to Jerry and we're both satisfied with the outcome. He feels terrible and I do to. Every breeder makes mistakes. Along with that is the opportunity to redeem oneself. 

I'll come up with the money but I'm going to sit down with my husband and we're going to talk about all this. There are no guarantees after this surgery that coco will never have problems. There are no guarantees, but a strong suspicion that as she grows and her plates close at approximately 8-10 months that this will be bad enough she will have problems with her wrists. 

I was lucky in finding this early. Most don't realize this til their dog is limping and in pain. But, with the same good luck, I have to guess as to how bad this will be when even the surgeon's don't want to give me an answer they have to be held to.

So there ya go....


----------



## peluitohavanese

Kris, I hope I didn't offend you because it was not my intention to say you didn't do your homework.  I think we can all learn something from this. 
It is always good policy to verify health test results on OFA. If they are not there, then don't purchase until they are posted. 
It is always good policy to get things in writing - as in a contract between breeder and buyer. 
In no way did I mean to hurt anyone's feelings. I just think that in all this that is happening there is an opportunity to also educate the public.
I am glad that Jerome is working things out with you. I knew he would come through for you. 
Arlene


----------



## KrisE

No offense taken. I truly appreciate all the assistance you've provided.


----------



## peluitohavanese

Well, I just visited the clinic website that you took CoCo to... and I have to say that Dr. Hammell can take a look at my doggies anyyyyy daaaay.... hubba hubba... LOL!
http://ighvet.com/vet_specialists.php


----------



## Julie

I am getting reports on this thread------
please--please-----let's not get a "heated" thing going here,yet again.

I think Arlene and others are trying their best to help you with Coco,but ultimately it needs to be worked out with Jerome.People are trying to help.


----------



## KrisE

I'm considering doing one leg at both this clinic and the U. The surgeon/resident there was a hottie too LOL

Is it getting hot in here Dr Hottie?


----------



## KrisE

Julie said:


> I am getting reports on this thread------
> please--please-----let's not get a "heated" thing going here,yet again.
> 
> I think Arlene and others are trying their best to help you with Coco,but ultimately it needs to be worked out with Jerome.People are trying to help.


Don't be concerned Julie. I just wanted to clarify something and it wasn't pointed at anyone specific


----------



## peluitohavanese

Don't worry everything is ok


----------



## Julie

Thank you.:grouphug:


----------



## peluitohavanese

:becky: ahem....yes it is getting rather warm... LOL LOL!


----------



## KrisE

is there a grope avatar  

I bet you're wishing you didn't have to let the dogs out for lunch instead of accompanying me to the clinic to meet this handsome Vet. Opportunity lost.
hahahahhahahaaaaaaaound:


----------



## peluitohavanese

Now go take a look at Coco's handsome vet. Dr. Hammell.... hee hee
http://ighvet.com/vet_specialists.php


----------



## KrisE

That picture of Hammel doesn't do him justice. 

If I hand him a 2,300 check, I think the least he could do was give me a little dance LOL


----------



## peluitohavanese

Darn! those little guys have to poop...otherwise I would have been there in a heartbeat. They all know me there as I go there very often, but I had not seen Hunky Hammell in person...whooo. LOL!


----------



## Carefulove

peluitohavanese said:


> Now go take a look at Coco's handsome vet. Dr. Hammell.... hee hee
> http://ighvet.com/vet_specialists.php


Grrr bao guao Dr. hammell (hammelocomotodo)


----------



## peluitohavanese

:eyebrows:


----------



## KrisE

No disrespect to Dr Hammel of course or his wife LOL. Besides, I'm too old and he's married. I wonder if he likes overweight milfs?


----------



## peluitohavanese

Oooh you are naughty! ha ha ha!!:biggrin1:


----------



## peluitohavanese

Of course not - but we have eyes to seeeeee with, as the big bad wolf told little red riding hoodound:


----------



## micki2much

OMG, you two are CRAZY ound:!!! But he is verrrryyyy good looking!!!


----------



## peluitohavanese

Hey Zury, did you know I speak fluent Spanish? :biggrin1:


----------



## KrisE

Arlene, I did put you down as a referral so I'm hoping you do get some type of referral fee. Just thought I'd say this in case there was one.


----------



## peluitohavanese

Naaah, they just send me a nice card saying thank you. That is fine  They are awesome, I get a 10% breeder discount fee. I've often asked them if I can get frequent flyer miles for every dollar I spend there... lane:


----------



## Carefulove

peluitohavanese said:


> Hey Zury, did you know I speak fluent Spanish? :biggrin1:


Yes I know. I went to your website already! Tell your DH that my dad is From Santiago.


----------



## Carefulove

KrisE said:


> No disrespect to Dr Hammel of course or his wife LOL. Besides, I'm too old and he's married. I wonder if he likes overweight milfs?


Yeah and too bad he is a small animal vet, otherwise I could pass for a cammel or a cow! Mooooooooooooooooooooooo


----------



## peluitohavanese

Cool!!! I will tell him!


----------



## Beamer

KrisE said:


> They basically break the bone away from the other, put a fat pad on the top of it so it takes awhile to attach again, giving the long bone freedom to grow. The cost comes to $2335.00. Everyone there knew she was a havanese immediately. Many breeders bring their dogs there and I didn't have to tell him what issues Havanese have. I feel very confident these guys know the breed and what's best. *He said most havanese have some bowing, but this is to the point he feels should be addressed.*


I did not know that most havanese have this issue? I guess my Beamer is the exception and not the rule. lol

I'm sure more lurkers have just been scared away from the breed.. lol

Ryan


----------



## peluitohavanese

Some bowing is not abnormal. There is a certain allowable curvature to the leg. When there is excessive bowing that is not good as it can affect the way the elbow and leg grow and develop. This is why I would love it if we had a test that we could certify with OFA where we could have a grading system so that we would know how much curvature is normal.


----------



## Scooter's Family

I hope the tone of your posts means you've worked something out with Jerome! I truly hope he came through and is doing the right thing. 

The vet being so cute sure is a bonus! Nothing wrong with being easy on the eyes. Glad you've got a treatment plan in Coco's best interest!


----------



## KrisE

Scooter's Family said:


> I hope the tone of your posts means you've worked something out with Jerome! I truly hope he came through and is doing the right thing.
> 
> The vet being so cute sure is a bonus! Nothing wrong with being easy on the eyes. Glad you've got a treatment plan in Coco's best interest!


Yes there is an agreement we're working on.


----------



## Scooter's Family

Kris-:whoo:

That's wonderful news!!!


----------



## KrisE

Does anyone have an idea of how much growth occurs from 4.5 months to 8 months when her growth plates start to close? 

Coco is 7lbs right now. I asked the Dr how much growth is left before her plates close to try and determine how much more bowing will occur. He couldn't give me an answer.

Elbow to wrist right now is approximately 3"


----------



## peluitohavanese

how much is floor to elbow, elbow to shoulder ?


----------



## Beamer

Hi Arlene,

Thanks for the answer on the bowing of the legs thing. I honestly did not know a minimal curve was normal in our breed. Everyone is always bragging about legs straighter than arrows.. lol

Ryan


----------



## peluitohavanese

Legs straighter than arrows is nice, but sometimes some dogs have a wider chest (spring of rib) and are not flat in the rib cage.....so Mother Nature must have a little wiggle room to accomodate our gorgeous little doggy chests. I just wish we had a way to know how much is "natural" or allowable, and how much is not.


----------



## peluitohavanese

Here are some examples. The sable and white is my boy MC, and the black and white is his littermate MeMe. She is longer in leg, he has a very nice spring of rib. They both have straight legs, but at the same time have different leg lengths. Are they straight as an arrow? I don't know.. how straight is straight? I do know that they do not have CD :biggrin1:


----------



## peluitohavanese

by the way those little clumps on the sides of MeMe's front legs are her muscles. This girl is TOUGH! LOL!ound:


----------



## Julie

Hmnnn....this is interesting. I didn't realize there was such a difference (or could be) in leg length of havanese considered healthy etc.

Can you tell I've only seen one in person----EVER? ound: YEP! My own!


----------



## Kathy

peluitohavanese said:


> Legs straighter than arrows is nice, but sometimes some dogs have a wider chest (spring of rib) and are not flat in the rib cage.....so Mother Nature must have a little wiggle room to accomodate our gorgeous little doggy chests. I just wish we had a way to know how much is "natural" or allowable, and how much is not.


I agree with this Arlene. We must remember we are a breed that has a short upper arm so not EVERY Havanese will, nor can have stick straight legs. If they have a slight curve that does NOT mean they have CD. Also, for clarification, true CD is NOT a health issue but rather a bone deformity. A health issue would be organ related as it effects the health of the dog. Most dogs and humans who are lame, are also very healthy. For example, I have a son with CP. While he can't walk well he is very healthy.


----------



## Nina

*My Experience with Jerry and Havanique*

Dear Kris,

I am so sorry that you have gone thru all of this. After reading most of your posts, I realized that the negative experience that I had with Jerry from Havanique was not an isolated situation. I am one of the people that decided to purchase a dog from him, partially because of your recommendation and partially by the recommendation of one of the board members of Angel League Organization for Rescue (HALO). I decided to share my story out of decency. I believe that my saga will speak for itself. I hope that serves to educate others.

I researched breeds for a while. When I decided on a Havanese, I spent countless hours on the internet researching breeders. At the end, I was confident to go ahead with Jerry. He was friendly, appeared to be very knowledgeable, was not too far from our home, he showed his dogs, and assured me that none of his dogs ever had health problem (providing a lifetime warrantee), etc.

After having difficulty agreeing on a mutually convenient date and time to meet, Jerry offered to bring the male dog that we were interested in to our home for a visit. On January 20, Jerry brought two dogs to our home (a male and a female). We were delighted with this agreement because we were anxious to visit with the dog and really did not want to travel to West Virginia. My husband, 6-year old daughter, aupair, and I spent several hours with Jerry and both dogs. Ultimately we fell in love with Ollie. The proposed price via e-mail was $1,500 (he explained that the dog was 6 months old and had an overbite, so he could not keep it as a show dog). At our home, when we decided to buy him, he told me that the price was $1,800-I questioned that but he would not budge. Not wanting to make a scene in front of my impressionable 6-year old daughter and aupair, we paid him the $1,800. We made check payble to Jerry, he told me that Havanique was a trade name not a business. Later, I found the e-mail that confirmed the quoted price of $1,500.00. Jerry sent me the following e-mail on 01/16/09.

EDITED BY MELISSA! No PRIVATE EMAILS PLEASE!

At the time of the purchase, Jerry told us to make sure to have the vet check his ears. When the vet checked his ears the next day, she told me that Ollie had a severe ear infection. Well, I could not believe that Jerry did not tell me that Ollie had an ear infection. Or better, I could not believe that Jerry let the ear infection get so bad. An experienced breeder (that administers his own vaccines) had to know that the dog had an ear infection-he had tons of black ear wax that took 15 days to clear up. The cost of the ear infection was $100.00. The experience of having to grab the dog to care for his ears daily during our bonding time was horrible. My intention was to contact Jerry and request reimbursement for the treatment of the ear infection and a refund of the $300.00 that he had overcharged me. After all, he sold us the dog with an ear infection and changed his story on the price.

Within a few days, I posted a message on the forum (introducing Ollie). In my message, I shared that he had a terrible ear infection (the truth). The next day, I read that Jerry had posted an extremely defensive message. I found it very suspicious. Upon my return home, my aupair told me that Jerry had called and had vented to her about my action. He complained to her that I was "ruining his reputation." Furthermore, he told her to tell me not to post anything on the forum but to call him directly. She told me that the tone that he was using with her made her feel threatened and scared. She told him that she was not comfortable having this conversation and that she would tell me that he had called. Upon hearing this, I was taken completely aback. I found it highly unprofessional of him to call my home and complain about my action to my aupair (my employee), specially using an intimidating tone. I simply sent him an e-mail stating that I our family was sick and this was not a good time to talk (this was the truth as all of us had the stomach flu). I took this opportunity to sever our contact with Jerry. I decided to cut my losses and move on.

After this incident (within the first month of ownership), we found the following. Ollie had persistent bad breath. I complained to the vet and upon a closer examination she was dismayed by the fact that he was so young, yet had tartar build up on his molars (even thought I was brushing his teeth three times per week). So, we felt even more uneasy. Ollie arrived at our home with a severe ear infection and tartar on his teeth. We started to wonder if Jerry had adequately cared for Ollie.

In regard to his vaccinations, the vet was surprised that he had not had his two distemper DHLPP or rabies shots. We also were dismayed that Jerry had not given him these vaccines (he was a 6-month old dog). So, we had to pay more money in vaccinations.

Lastly, when the surgeon neuter Ollie, he found an umbilical hernia. According to VPI Pet Insurance (Ollie's insurance), this is not a covered expense. My insurance claim said: "This expense is denied because congenital disorders and developmental defects are excluded by the policy." So, we once again had to pay more money. I believe that an experienced breeder would have seen that and should have disclosed it. We noticed a bump within the first month of ownership but since Jerry convinced us that none of his dogs had ever had problems we disregarded it (wishful thinking and a mistake on our part).

Kris, after reading your postings, I wonder if we have found all there is to be found with Ollie. I checked his legs and do not see anything obvious (but again, I am not a professional).

In summary, we love Ollie and would not trade him for any other dog-even knowing that the contract that we signed with Jerry said: "4. The dog will be replaced should it develop any serious hereditary defect or disease which significantly affects the health or quality of life, provided the Breeder/Seller is given signed veterinary documentation of defect and proof of spaying/neutering or euthanasia. Breeder/Seller reserves the right to require a second opinion from another veterinarian of their choice. A malnourished, obese, or abused condition will void replacement of dog. Breeder/Seller is not responsible for reimbursement of accumulated expenses, only for the replacement of the dog."

In regard to Jerry and Havanique, our family does not wish further contact and will not do further business with him. If he ever dares to contacts us it better be with an apology and a check-not for $400.00 but at least $4,000. If we ever contact him, it with be via an attorney for legal action.

I wish everybody that reads this post a more positive experience.

Nina


----------



## mybella

Nina,

Wow! I am so sorry you and Kris had such a bad experience. I didn't realize how lucky I was with my breeder interaction. I have had nothing but a positive experience.

I hope that both Coco and Ollie do well and reward all your love.

My thoughts are with you both! 

Marie


----------



## Pixiesmom

I second that Marie!
My breeder is soooo nice and genuine.
Best to both of you.


----------



## HavaneseSoon

:jaw: Oh Nina.........................I am so sorry for your heartache too! This thread has been very enlightening and very informative to read about Havanese health issues. 

It is heart breaking to read just sad stories when it involves our precious little ones. Thank you so much for sharing your experience.


----------



## KrisE

Wow :jaw: I am sorry you went through this Nina. I do think you've got the cutest little boy I've seen in ages and am so thankful you had everything cleared up. 

I hope I can see more pictures of him. He's just beautiful


----------



## KrisE

Floor to elbow: 4.5" 
from the inside of her elbow to the top of her shoulder blade: 2"


peluitohavanese said:


> how much is floor to elbow, elbow to shoulder ?


----------



## tikaboo

*Makes me wonder....*

Makes me wonder if these two are just the tip of the iceberg. I am so sorry for both of you.


----------



## swtxsweetie

Nina, sorry to hear about your story!! Hope Ollie and Coco both have wonderful lives under you and Kris. They are lucky to have you.


----------



## LuvCicero

*We made check payble to Jerry, he told me that Havanique was a trade name not a business...per Nina*

I have a question. If you are a breeder...with a name...does the IRS not consider that a business? If he wanted the check made out to him ~ does that mean he doesn't report his income and expenses to the IRS as a business. My friend is a CPA and says if you are selling show/pet animals you have to keep records of income and expense to report to IRS. How is Havanique a trade name and not a business? This part I don't understand. If you are selling a product you are suppose to show a profit/lost record. Is there a special law that I don't know about or is this like a puppy mill that doesn't report any income?


----------



## Melissa Miller

Closing this thread. I feel the original purpose has been worked out and Kris is communicating with the breeder. This is not a situation of the breeder being AWOL. 

I asked that no private emails get posted, and I deleted part of Ninas message that had that. 

If someone would like to start an educational thread on what to look for before buying please do. There are many many threads here that can aid that. 

A lot of people are upset, although they do not post publicly, fearing this is going to turn into a fundraiser, and really we want the forum to be about education first. People get puppies, and sadly sometimes they get sick or have deformities. Sometimes its from poor breeding, and sometimes its Mother Nature. I know very good breeders who have sent puppies home who required surgery or even died. I also know poor breeders who scam people daily. I hope people on their own can learn what to look for and accept what is. 

This thread has run its course and needs to be dealt with privately. If Kris would like to post photos and updates on the dog, no problem. I just do not want the breeder to buyer bashing to continue here. We are not the court and jury. 


I have read enough of the thread to know, people will still get their fill. Its not being deleted, it just wont continue. The thought of starting from page one, is comparable to starting the HSD thread ( ring the alarms!!!! I said the word) or the political thread. My Lasik Dr. would not approve! 

THE END!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------

