# Looking for a SHavanese to rescue



## tyra310 (Mar 16, 2009)

I have two short haired havanese and I love them dearly. Instead of telling people they are a genetic defect I sat they are "rare". My elderly friend lost his little dog a few months ago and love mine so. He is looking for a small house trained dog. I thought since he loves my two so much maybe I could find him one in a rescue or a breeder who would like to sell a SH cheaper. If he should become unable to care for the dog in the future due to his advanced age I have assured him I will take his dog into my home.


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## andiesmommy (Feb 9, 2010)

This shavanese is on Petfinder. I was inquiring about the other dog. They are puppy mill rescues - not sure how close you are to them.

http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/14666054

Donna


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## Cailleach (Jan 30, 2010)

tyra310 said:


> I have two short haired havanese and I love them dearly. Instead of telling people they are a genetic defect I sat they are "rare". My elderly friend lost his little dog a few months ago and love mine so. He is looking for a small house trained dog. I thought since he loves my two so much maybe I could find him one in a rescue or a breeder who would like to sell a SH cheaper. If he should become unable to care for the dog in the future due to his advanced age I have assured him I will take his dog into my home.


I hope you find the perfect Shavanese that you seek. Not to be contraversial if I can help it but I wish people would discontinue using the term "rare" when it is a genetic defect. Just today in my area I saw a person advertising for a Shavanese female a year old to mate with her Shavanese male and she wanted it cheap and unregistered. Put 2 and 2 together and it's obvious she is planning on breeding and pumping out "rare" puppys as a selling feature and this rubs me the wrong way. MPO


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Genes for all the coat types in dogs have been identified and there is now a genetic test to find out if any Havanese is carrying the gene for the shorthair. The Shorthair/Shavanese/Satin dogs have to get one gene from each parent. A carrier can be bred to a non-carrier and never produce one, but some offspring can continue to be carriers. That's why it's still in the breed. Mendelian genetics may be easier to have visible results with vegetables, but still works with animals. 

We've had some of our dogs tested and they are not carriers. We waited to have more tested because if parents turn out not to be carriers they won't produce carriers. If one is a carrier it doesn't mean that offspring will necessarily be carriers but they can be tested to find out.

We have never produced one and with Twinkle being on the bottom line of all our dogs, we didn't think we had carriers but now we know. We don't have to test our dogs out of Twinkle by a stud who is also not a carrier.

It doesn't have anything to do with health. It's just a coat type gene-not a "defect"-just not the desired type for the breed. There is also a test to see if one is carrying for curly.

More tests to come. This is just the beginning. Finding the coat genes is an example of why dogs are such a good model for genetic research with all the purebreds who have different characteristics within a very similar gene pool. All the research is being done primarily to benefit humans, but the canine genome has a lot to offer researchers, and we are just able to take the benefit.

All sorts of eye disorder genes have been found too and other breeds who have a lot of eye disorders are already taking advantage.


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## Eva (Jun 20, 2008)

I'm not sure where you are but I'd recommend contacting breeders in your area or your local Havanese club and putting the word out that you're looking for a Smooth coat (SH). 
It could take months or possibly years for one to be born since it's a matter of chance..both parents have to carry the SH gene to have smooth coat puppies.
HRI's had a couple of SH's come through in the past but it's not very common to see them in rescue either.


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## Eva (Jun 20, 2008)

Tom King said:


> Genes for all the coat types in dogs have been identified and there is now a genetic test to find out if any Havanese is carrying the gene for the shorthair.


Awwww Tom  
I know that being able to test for the genetic marker is good for the breed but I can't imagine NOT being able to find another SH.
Todd is so completely perfect for my family and the thought of no more Todd's in the world makes me sad. 
I was talking with another breeder a few months ago and she told me that genetic tests were on their way but I hate hearing it's been put to use for my own (purely selfish) reasons.


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## Phoebs (May 28, 2009)

Eva relax and enjoy your shavanese. There will be more.... nature continually produces new mutations (ok, we can be gentle and call them "new genetic variants"), and the genetic tests may not catch these pesky new variations, depending on how they are designed. Also, remember that short hair is the wildtype form of dog coat, isn't it?? There were never any dogs wandering the planes of Africa with fur scraping the ground and needing "hygenic" trims and daily grooming. So from your perspective, you could probably argue that the rest of us are keeping mutant pets....


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

LOL! I love the way you put that, Juliette.

Eva, you're the only person I've heard call them "smooth coats." I think it is cute, but most people won't know what you mean if you use that when looking for a short-hair Havanese. And, in addition to what Juliette said, there will always be someone out there who won't do the genetic testing, even when it is widely available, so that is where the offpsring will continue to show up.

Tyra, where are you located? If your friend is not in a hurry, there are a couple of good breeders that occasionally get a short-hair Havanese cropping up in a litter. Be careful though - there are also some unscrupulous breeders who do no health testing and then sell the short-hairs at an outrageous price dubbing them as "rare." Also, make sure he fills out an application with HRI. That way they can try to match him up if one comes through the organization.


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## Eva (Jun 20, 2008)

Havtahava said:


> LOL! I love the way you put that, Juliette.
> 
> *Eva, you're the only person I've heard call them "smooth coats."* I think it is cute, but most people won't know what you mean if you use that when looking for a short-hair Havanese. And, in addition to what Juliette said, there will always be someone out there who won't do the genetic testing, even when it is widely available, so that is where the offpsring will continue to show up.


Really? Hmmm...that's what Todd's breeder called them and when I searched "smooth coat havanese" all of the information that I've found says that "smooth coat" is the original term for a SH Hav and that they only picked up the nickname Shavanese. 
Not a big deal either way but smooth coat sounds better to me


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Oh hey, I _fully_ realize that just because I haven't heard something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  I just really haven't heard anyone but you say it and I know several breeders that have had short-hairs and have been involved with groups who talk about genetics and researching the short-hairs.


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## tyra310 (Mar 16, 2009)

I live in Maryland and I am only looking for the SH because the gentleman is advanced in age so the grooming would be better. We are having lunch together today and may set a date to go to the pounds in Delaware which are much easier to adopt from (since I am worried about his age and the shelters here look for every reason NOT to approve adoptions)We are looking for an adult not a pup. A good dog already house trained. As for using the word "rare" I use it in jest. I have spayed and neutered my two and have no intention of breeding. I once had a brindle lad. also a recessive gene. We called her rare too. Because so many people ask what they are it is easier than explaining the recessive gene thing. So if Dachsands have more than one coat and its acceptable, and chihuahuas have more than one coat and its acceptable, I am wondering if it is only a coat gene, What's the big deal. They have the same everything else, lovely personality, easy to train, great lap dogs, Okay don't kill me!!!!!! I was just wondering.


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## Eva (Jun 20, 2008)

tyra310 said:


> So if Dachsands have more than one coat and its acceptable, and chihuahuas have more than one coat and its acceptable, I am wondering if it is only a coat gene, What's the big deal. They have the same everything else, lovely personality, easy to train, great lap dogs, Okay don't kill me!!!!!! I was just wondering.


 I've wondered the same thing. Some breeds accept both long and short hair, some only one or the other. 
I'd love to see SH's as a breed standard but I don't think that it's likely  
When I was researching breeds and found Havanese I loved everything about them except for the high maintance coat and so finding out about the short hairs was the perfect solution.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Eva said:


> Awwww Tom
> I know that being able to test for the genetic marker is good for the breed but I can't imagine NOT being able to find another SH.
> Todd is so completely perfect for my family and the thought of no more Todd's in the world makes me sad.
> I was talking with another breeder a few months ago and she told me that genetic tests were on their way but I hate hearing it's been put to use for my own (purely selfish) reasons.


There was an article in the last issue of Silk Road eep: on this subject. The author was NOT suggesting trying to remove all of the short haired gene carriers from the gene pool at this time... It looks like there is a good possibility that the short haired gene also tends to be combined with better teeth, though at this time, they aren't sure why. I guess some lines of Havs have late erupting, and sometimes missing teeth. Shavs rarely do.

I think Tom was just saying that in HIS lines, he doesn't have the short haired gene. (I also don't think he has teeth problems in his dogs, at least none that we talked about. Kodi has a good bite with teeth that erupted right on time.)

The message _I_ got from the article was that the short haired gene is not a "mutation", but a normal gene within the Havanese gene pool, just as the gene for a curly coat is. The short haired dogs aren't currently allowed in the show ring, but aside from that there is no reason that they shouldn't be happy, healthy pets for people who want them. Who knows? Now that the genetics behind it are clearly understood, maybe someday there will be room in the show ring for both types. Certainly there are other dog breeds where both long and short haired versions can be shown.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Havanese Rescue Inc!!!!!! HRI HRI HRI 
If you really want to rescue Havanese, please consider putting in an application to HRI. With some patience you will find the perfect Hav to fit with your family. It does take some time to match the right pup up with the right family but it is well worth it!!! Please consider them.


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## Eva (Jun 20, 2008)

krandall said:


> There was an article in the last issue of Silk Road eep: on this subject. The author was NOT suggesting trying to remove all of the short haired gene carriers from the gene pool at this time... *It looks like there is a good possibility that the short haired gene also tends to be combined with better teeth, though at this time, they aren't sure why.* I guess some lines of Havs have late erupting, and sometimes missing teeth. Shavs rarely do.
> 
> I think Tom was just saying that in HIS lines, he doesn't have the short haired gene. (I also don't think he has teeth problems in his dogs, at least none that we talked about. Kodi has a good bite with teeth that erupted right on time.)
> 
> The message _I_ got from the article was that the short haired gene is not a "mutation", but a normal gene within the Havanese gene pool, just as the gene for a curly coat is. The short haired dogs aren't currently allowed in the show ring, but aside from that there is no reason that they shouldn't be happy, healthy pets for people who want them. Who knows? Now that the genetics behind it are clearly understood, maybe someday there will be room in the show ring for both types. Certainly there are other dog breeds where both long and short haired versions can be shown.


 That's really interesting.  
I have heard that SH's seem to have fewer health issues than the standard and yes...Todd has perfect teeth..lol


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## tyra310 (Mar 16, 2009)

My Algore has perfect teeth but Abby has an overbite which is really an underdeveloped lower jaw, hence the pointy face. Since I had her first the vet was concerned that we may have to remove her K9 teeth on account of bite but it didnt turn out that way her bite was ok. When I got AlGore (abby's brother) the first thing the vet did was check his teeth. She marveled at what nice teeth he had.


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## tyra310 (Mar 16, 2009)

Abby was also a little fiddle front. So we had her liver enzymes tested and they were fine too.


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

Tom, do you think they will have genetic testing to see if the Havanese has a silky coat or a cottony one or is that a random trait?


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## AgilityHav (Aug 20, 2007)

While I will admit I do not know the details, as a breeder, I would not like to see SHs in the standard.....not that I don't think they are cute, they are Havanese, but it all goes back to the breed's history.

Havanese are supposed to have a profuse, double coat that protected them from the high temperatures of cuba(keeping them cool). A SH lacks that trait, and seeing as it is one of the defining characteristics of the breed, I do not feel SHs should be allowed to be shown or bred. 

But, that JMHO. I do think they are quite cute though...and I guess structure would be easy to see without soaping


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Kathie said:


> Tom, do you think they will have genetic testing to see if the Havanese has a silky coat or a cottony one or is that a random trait?


A test can easily be developed for any coat type now. All it takes is funding. You know that a dog is carrying for the coat that it has, but is not necessarily homozygous for it. So far, the only tests I know of for coat types are shorthair and curly. The outfits that have identified the genes are not ones interested in getting into testing. Most of the money spent on this research has been for the benefit of humans using the canine genome as a model, since it's so much easier to get genes for specific attributes separated by looking at different breeds that share some traits and are different in others. We share a lot of DNA with dogs, so it makes it useful.

Once you know the gene and it's location for what you are looking for, there are other outfits that will develop the test and do the testing for a fee.

Tyra, You look just like my wife Pam in your avatar picture!


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

krandall said:


> There was an article in the last issue of Silk Road eep: on this subject. The author was NOT suggesting trying to remove all of the short haired gene carriers from the gene pool at this time... It looks like there is a good possibility that the short haired gene also tends to be combined with better teeth, though at this time, they aren't sure why. I guess some lines of Havs have late erupting, and sometimes missing teeth. Shavs rarely do.


That is interesting cause a lot of lines that I have seen that have a lot of short hairs, also seem to have a lot of off bites.

I suggested a short hair to a friend who loves my Havs but has never had a dog with coat. I was questioned about it by others and I don't know much about it but what other drop coated breeds have short hair like ours-any of the rest of the bichon family? I have never heard of a short hair maltese.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

The teeth thing was just wishful thinking. We have records of dentition (along with other things of course) for all the puppies we've produced and we've produced 4 puppies with dentition issues (about 2%). All from outside studs, both carrier and non, out of non-carrier dams.

The Shorthairs can still be registered. The DQ is only good in the show ring. It doesn't mean they can't be registered.

The reason you see both hairless and full coated dogs in the Crested ring is a completely different issue. The Hairless carry a fatal gene and if any individual gets two copies the puppy does not survive even long enough to be born. The full coated Powderpuffs do not have a copy of the fatal gene. All the Hairless you see have one copy. You see both types in the ring because it's necessary for the survival of their breed. The Powderpuffs are expected to and are judged on having good teeth. The hairless never have good teeth, so are not expected to have them.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ama0722 said:


> That is interesting cause a lot of lines that I have seen that have a lot of short hairs, also seem to have a lot of off bites.


I don't know for sure whether problems with teeth are _always_ the same as problems with bite... Maybe one of our breeders can weigh in on that. The specific problem that was talked about in the article is that in some lines of Havs, dentition comes in late, or in some cases, teeth don't come in at all. Of course that would affect bite. But I would think there are all kinds of things that could cause a bad bite that were not necessarily caused by late or missing dentition.

The other thing is that although there are good breeders who have breeding dogs who occasionally through short haired havs, since they can't be shown and shouldn't be bred under current breed standards, the better breeders (I would think) probably breed away from them. I may be way off-base, but I'm betting that a lot of SH Havs are coming from puppy mills and backyard breeders who see them as a novelty and another way to make money.



ama0722 said:


> I suggested a short hair to a friend who loves my Havs but has never had a dog with coat. I was questioned about it by others and I don't know much about it but what other drop coated breeds have short hair like ours-any of the rest of the bichon family? I have never heard of a short hair maltese.


I don't know anything about whether there are short haired dogs in other Bichon-types. I'd be interested to hear if anyone else does.


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