# Dark brown growing from black?



## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

I know that colors usually change with the Havanese, but I'm not sure what this is called because the color didn't technically change.. His black hair is still black but now there is dark brown growing. I have seen pictures of some Havanese with dark tips. I assume that is what is happening here..?


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

I have read that black which turns dark brown is called Havanna brown. A Havanna brown dog still has black lips and eye rims, unlike a chocolate hav. The color is somewhat rare.


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## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

Marni said:


> I have read that black which turns dark brown is called Havanna brown. A Havannahbrown dog still has black lips and eye rims, unlike a chocolate have. The color is somewhat rare.


Oh jeez, I can't tell his breeder that.. she'd probably try to charge me!


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

A black dog that has red highlights in the hair will usually "silver" as they age. My Tucker did that. I'll attach a picture of him as a puppy and as an adult.

Also, the color for Tucker shifts from dark charcoal through softer gray, and back again.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

P.S. Here is an article on the Havana Brown coloring for you to consider, too. 
Gallery 8 - Havana Brown


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## Tux's Mom (May 24, 2016)

Tux did the same thing. I could see his "roots" were coming in a different shade as his hair grew longer. These two photos are about a year apart.


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## Maistjarna (Oct 15, 2016)

Look at: COLOUR CHANGE - CHARCOAL/DARK SILVER
At this link: http://www.havanesecolors.com/gallery15.html


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## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

Thanks for sharing Tux and Tucker's changes. I love the way the color turned out on them. Did the ends eventually change as well? Hard to tell if they were cut off or if they changed. I hope Migo's black does lighten at least a little just so I can see what he is looking at! It would make our training easier.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

karidyne said:


> Thanks for sharing Tux and Tucker's changes. I love the way the color turned out on them. Did the ends eventually change as well? Hard to tell if they were cut off or if they changed. I hope Migo's black does lighten at least a little just so I can see what he is looking at! It would make our training easier.


Tucker had never been trimmed at all, (except sanitary trims and feet pads, oh, and topknot hair,) until several years after this photo. So, it is fascinating, but the whole length of hair seems to change, darker/lighter/darker/lighter... I have no explanation for what actually occurs. It is fascinating.


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## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

Our Rex turned 2 in September. He is a Black and Tan, however, his tan is now cream and his black after taking in a brownish shade is silvering. I think over the next couple of years he will likely be silver and cream. I will try to get a picture that shows how the coat is silvering.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Tucker and Tux are so beautiful! 

And Migo is just adorable! Love his markings. 

I also was told red often precedes silvering. My Sophie looked jet black to me as a very young pup but was registered as a Havanah Brown. Although turns out she's not. (she is 2.5 yrs old now) She got a good amount of red in her coat but wasn't expected to silver. She surprised us several months ago by starting to silver. I have no idea how far it will go but it's beautiful! Mainly on her pants now but spreading a bit up her sides and now has white hairs sprinkled thru her back. 

I'd be very curious to know if most blacks that silver tend to silver all over evenly at the same time or do they start from one end and go to the other or does it vary? Sophie's right now is definitely from back end the most. 

So fun to watch these guys change.


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## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

Dee Dee said:


> Tucker and Tux are so beautiful!
> 
> And Migo is just adorable! Love his markings.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the photos! I love her pose! Migo seems to be changing from the front end first.


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

Tucker and Tux are beautiful. Sofie sure looks Havana brown in the second picture. (She is a knockout, 'cause she has Zoe's white mustache and goatee.)


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

That is so interesting Karidyne that Migo is silvering the opposite. Will be fun to see what these guys end up looking like. I know I've silvered a lot myself worrying about Sophie's IBD 

Marni I see an adorable little face in your profile pic but do you have other photos of your babies posted here? I'd love to see another white face LOL!


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

You saw a lot of them on my TGIF thread, but here is the one I keep trying without success to make a signature. (Ha, it worked this time.)


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

Here is puppy picture, again.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Eeeee they are SO so cute! I do remember the pics, Zoe looked like a different dog in her adorable upside down pose in your profile pic. <3 She looks much more brown in her puppy pic and more silver in profile or is that just the lighting.


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

Dee Dee said:


> Eeeee they are SO so cute! I do remember the pics, Zoe looked like a different dog in her adorable upside down pose in your profile pic. <3 She looks much more brown in her puppy pic and more silver in profile or is that just the lighting.


Zoe is always fascinating to watch. She does odd things, like hide under pillows then jump out at you. Across her back her roots are blond like a golden retriever, her face is light grey at roots. Her ears have golden brown with black tips, but that is going to grow out and away. :laugh2:


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Perry is a silver - but hasn't yet silvered too much . He does have the reddish tint to some of his hair and he has patches of what we've described as dull black (as opposed to the normal shinier black) which are extremely difficult to see in a picture because it just looks like the angle/ lighting but they seem like they will silver and are much more noticeable when he gets cut. He also has some patches - right now mostly on one foot / between the toes that are already silver.


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## Maistjarna (Oct 15, 2016)

Havanese and their colors are fun...

Luna has a brown (but not very visable) area on her leg:








Close up:









But I think thet will be silver sooner or later just like the rest of her body (except for the top of her head)

This is a pic of her at about 8 months old









As a tiny puppy









About 3 months old 









Not enjoying picture time at 1,5 years (but shows the brownish color)









At 2 years out in the sun









If I remember right, the 1st places she started turning brown/silver were belly and (inside fur) of ears (the outside fur of her ears is black).

She never got all that brown, just had a short time where she was kind of silvery-blackish-brown (honestly, I do not know what color I would imagine if a person told me what I just told you guys) and then jumped to silver.

Now WHY do havanese sometimes turn brown before silvering out is an interesting question and if anyone knows, they are welcome to explain.


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

Luna had a lush puppy coat!


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## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

This is a close up picture of Rexy?s back with some of his tail hair laid across. It distinctly shows how much his coat has silvered on his back. The silver continues to slowly spread. I expect that someday he will Be mostly silver.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I believe there rally are a FEW "Havana brow" Havanese. But they are EXTREMELY rare from what I've seen. I have yet to see a single dog that was "called" Havana brown as a puppy that actually grew up to be one. Every one that I know has either been "fading black" or some shade of silver... though some remain mostly black dogs with a few white hairs sprinkled in) 

Kodi and Panda have both been blue-black from birth. They have never had any brown tinge to their black parts, nor do they have any white mixed into their black parts (Except that Panda has eyebrows, and Kodi has some white marks that are "scars" from tick bites) 

MOST of the silver Havanese I know have gone through a "brownish" phase as adolescents. 

But then... Pixel fooled us. She turned brownish, at just about the same time as Dee Dee's Sophie (they are both very close to the same age) Then both Pixel and Sophie developed some white hair mixed through their coats, and Pixel developed a splash of white behind one ear, and a wide white streak in her tail. Sophie, as Dee Dee has told you has gone on to become a darks silver on a lot of her body. Pixel, however has reverted, and is now as black asKodi, with NO white hair in her coat!!! Even the streak behind her ear and on her tail are gone!

The trouble with trying to figure a lot of this out is the we have genetic markers for only a few colors... And besides the base colors, Havanese also carry MANY "modifier" genes. And then "markings" can get in the way too. I THOUGHT Panda had "eyebrows" as a tiny puppy, but with the white on her face, you have to comb her hair JUST the right way to find them... and I wasn't sure. But we had her genetically tested for color, and she is "AT/AT", which means "points" (or eyebrows) so I DIDN'T imagine it... her white markings just confuse the issue. 

So black can be "covered" by one or more copies of the silver gene... and there is also whatever gene makes "fading black", though we don't know exactly what that gene is. 

There are only a couple of colors that will disqualify Havanese in the show ring (blue or merle) so few breeders bother to test for color. However, some breeders purposely avoid chocolate (because it's very hard to consistently produce chocolates with good pigment and eye color) while others purposely breed FOR chocolate (because so many pet people go crazy for them). Breed chocolate to chocolate, and you will, for sure get chocolate. But you also risk poor pigment. Breed clear red to clear red, and, again, for sure you will get puppies somewhere along the continuum from cream to dark red. But red sables are a lot more complicated in terms of their genetics. Different combinations of genes can come up with dogs that appear to the eye to be very similar "red sables". So more people do test for chocolate, and because reds have become so popular, and are tricky to reproduce, the breeders interested in breeding red dogs, or adding red to their lines are also more likely to color test. 

As for all the rest? That's one of the charminging things about Havanese. It's hard to know, for sure, what you'll end up with!


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## charliechan (Jun 25, 2019)

I had no idea that Havs did this color change thing! So interesting to read how all your pups changed their colors! Right now, Dahlia is black with a brownish tint in the sun and her muzzle is already fading to a brown. The hair between her toes is turning very brown with some silver worked in. I can’t wait to see her color change!


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## adalah (Feb 6, 2019)

Tagged, this seems like a very interesting thread


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Black that turns brownish happens for a number of reasons. It's not "Havana Brown" (which is exceedingly rare) and dogs never, EVER change from black to chocolate. Chocolate dogs have brown pigment on their nose and around their eyes and lips ALWAYS. Their coats can vary from very dar to totally white. If they have black pigment, they are not chocolate.

Black dogs sometimes sunburn. Other times brownish hair precedes silvering. Other times it precedes "fading black" (which ends up looking sort of charcoal grey) other times it comes and goes for no obvious reason. But this is not one of those "big color change things" that happen with Havanese. Quite honestly, this happens with black Labs too.


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## charliechan (Jun 25, 2019)

Cool! I’m not particular about my Dahlia’s color. She’s such a pretty black right now and her nose and “eyeliner” are black as well. Still it’ll be cool to see where she settles in at.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

charliechan said:


> Cool! I'm not particular about my Dahlia's color. She's such a pretty black right now and her nose and "eyeliner" are black as well. Still it'll be cool to see where she settles in at.


Pixel is the only one of mine who turned a "reddish-brownish-black" during adolescence. I thought it might be a sign that she would silver, since I knew there was silver in her family. (Her sister and littermate is a lovely silver, and that was obvious before she left the litter) Pixel DID develop a sprinkling of white hairs through her coat, and a pretty splash of white in her tail, so then I was SURE she was going to silver! (since I had two B&W dogs, I was kind of excited that I might end up with one of a different color! LOL!) Then all the white bits went away again, and all the brownish tint disappeared after she blew her puppy coat. As an adult, she is a shiny, coal-black dog with the tiny bits of white on her chest and toes she started with as a newborn. So I'm back to all B&W Havanese! LOL! That's OK, I have a matched set this way!


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

we were just noting that Oliver (he's a chocolate parti) has gotten way lighter than when we got him. It almost looks like he had his hair bleached or highlighted lol. His dark markings were dark chocolate and now they are more like a latte color at 7 months. I wonder if he'll continue to lighten. His dad kept the reddish color, mom got really light chocolate marks, almost white. the brown coloring is also a different texture than his white. 
7 months and 7 weeks


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

Melissa Woods said:


> we were just noting that Oliver (he's a chocolate parti) has gotten way lighter than when we got him. It almost looks like he had his hair bleached or highlighted lol. His dark markings were dark chocolate and now they are more like a latte color at 7 months. I wonder if he'll continue to lighten. His dad kept the reddish color, mom got really light chocolate marks, almost white. the brown coloring is also a different texture than his white.
> 7 months and 7 weeks


What a cutie! He really has lightened up. Almost looks like it's got red in it. Is that just my screen or do you think so too?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Woods said:


> we were just noting that Oliver (he's a chocolate parti) has gotten way lighter than when we got him. It almost looks like he had his hair bleached or highlighted lol. His dark markings were dark chocolate and now they are more like a latte color at 7 months. I wonder if he'll continue to lighten. His dad kept the reddish color, mom got really light chocolate marks, almost white. the brown coloring is also a different texture than his white.
> 7 months and 7 weeks


He might get lighter, but he might get lighter then darker again, too! You just never know with Havanese! LOL! Usually, what you have by 2 is probably what you'll have. ...unless you've got one of those that has hair that grows in bands of dark and light, and changes throughout their whole life! That happens too!


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

Jeanniek said:


> Melissa Woods said:
> 
> 
> > we were just noting that Oliver (he's a chocolate parti) has gotten way lighter than when we got him. It almost looks like he had his hair bleached or highlighted lol. His dark markings were dark chocolate and now they are more like a latte color at 7 months. I wonder if he'll continue to lighten. His dad kept the reddish color, mom got really light chocolate marks, almost white. the brown coloring is also a different texture than his white.
> ...


Definitely looks like he has some red! His dad is a chocolate/ red color with the same hazel eyes.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Perry is 3 and seems to still be silvering - though it's most evident right after he gets clipped (I clipped him yesterday and there seems to be more grey  ), of course it might not actually be more, but might just be more evident when he's short


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