# Anyone have experience with intervertebral disk disease?



## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

Charlie started acting weird today- yelping when he moved suddenly and then being all shaky and upset, which has happened before when he was in pain (like his first arthritis flare up last year). I checked him all over and felt a bump right next to his spine that I’d never noticed before, so we decided we should take him to the urgent care vet. We just got a call from the vet, who said that that for small dogs intervertebral disk disease can be fairly common, and that’s what they think it is. They’re doing an x-ray to be sure that’s what it is (he said he’s 95% certain, but tumors can feel very similar) and will give him pain meds and a muscle relaxant. We’ll need to severely restrict movement for at least 2 weeks (no jumping, carrying him up and down the 4 stairs down to ground level, and only enough walking to do his business a couple times a day). He said there are some good long term options we can consider like acupuncture. I feel terrible that my baby is in so much pain, and hate to think that this could potentially get worse. And that we might have to restrict activities he loves, like running on the beach?

Do any of you have experience with this and have suggestions for what’s worked well to help them in the short or long term? Thanks for any guidance you may have!


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

So sorry this is a possibility for Charlie and his is feeling sore😞. I’m afraid I have no experience with this but am hopeful someone else will be able to offer you some advice. Xx


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lisa Walker said:


> Charlie started acting weird today- yelping when he moved suddenly and then being all shaky and upset, which has happened before when he was in pain (like his first arthritis flare up last year). I checked him all over and felt a bump right next to his spine that I’d never noticed before, so we decided we should take him to the urgent care vet. We just got a call from the vet, who said that that for small dogs intervertebral disk disease can be fairly common, and that’s what they think it is. They’re doing an x-ray to be sure that’s what it is (he said he’s 95% certain, but tumors can feel very similar) and will give him pain meds and a muscle relaxant. We’ll need to severely restrict movement for at least 2 weeks (no jumping, carrying him up and down the 4 stairs down to ground level, and only enough walking to do his business a couple times a day). He said there are some good long term options we can consider like acupuncture. I feel terrible that my baby is in so much pain, and hate to think that this could potentially get worse. And that we might have to restrict activities he loves, like running on the beach?
> 
> Do any of you have experience with this and have suggestions for what’s worked well to help them in the short or long term? Thanks for any guidance you may have!


Mudpuppymama has experience with this, and has been able to keep her dog healthy and pain-free since it crpped up with careful measures! I’m sure she will chime in. If not, PM her!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I’m sorry he’s hurting! 


The diagnosis we got when Sundance was injured was pretty vague and not the same as yours but the vet thought it was related to his back or spine. He indicated Sundance would self limit and prescribed anti inflammatory meds, but he only self limited to a degree. As soon as Sundance started to feel better he would run down the hall and immediately start hurting, which sounds pretty universal for most Havanese and most injuries. It took some time and creativity to figure out how to manage it but it was so much easier than what I’ve heard of dogs that need crate rest or surgery.

I blocked off the stairs for a while but I didn’t need to be really careful about it because he got the message and waited to be carried up. Blocking off the long hall where he loves to run and play made the biggest difference, because it was too much of a temptation. But we had to make up for it by finding other ways to play. When he started feeling better we had playtime on our bed where it was easier to control the type of play and limit jumping and running. I think he saw it as an interesting new way to play, and since the old way hurt, he was perfectly happy with it. Small adjustments like an ottoman blocking a sofa as a step can really to help to prevent jumping. 

As long as the pain is managed, I think it’s more of an adjustment for us. Sundance didn’t seem to feel deprived, but I really tried to plan ahead and set up our house so that I didn’t have to stop him or say “no,” and I tried to find ways to engage him that were less physical.

As far as long term recovery and preventing a recurring injury (I think it’s common with your diagnosis) you might need to look into more permanent ways to prevent him from jumping on and off of high furniture, stairs, and other higher risk activities. Mudpuppymana knows a lot about all of that. As far as running on the beach specifically, I’m not sure about that one because some humans can’t run on the beach. But it seems like once he recovers you could find a way to change the way you play with him on the beach, either to limit how far or the type of beach surface he runs on, or carrying him to a smaller area where you can play or train with him instead, or taking him to the beach if he already ran around on a stable surface and is tired. If you think you will need to limit running altogether, I would look into training programs and classes, because being able to engage with him in other ways and giving him a fun activity for you to do together could make it a lot easier to limit running.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Lisa Walker said:


> Charlie started acting weird today- yelping when he moved suddenly and then being all shaky and upset, which has happened before when he was in pain (like his first arthritis flare up last year). I checked him all over and felt a bump right next to his spine that I’d never noticed before, so we decided we should take him to the urgent care vet. We just got a call from the vet, who said that that for small dogs intervertebral disk disease can be fairly common, and that’s what they think it is. They’re doing an x-ray to be sure that’s what it is (he said he’s 95% certain, but tumors can feel very similar) and will give him pain meds and a muscle relaxant. We’ll need to severely restrict movement for at least 2 weeks (no jumping, carrying him up and down the 4 stairs down to ground level, and only enough walking to do his business a couple times a day). He said there are some good long term options we can consider like acupuncture. I feel terrible that my baby is in so much pain, and hate to think that this could potentially get worse. And that we might have to restrict activities he loves, like running on the beach?
> 
> Do any of you have experience with this and have suggestions for what’s worked well to help them in the short or long term? Thanks for any guidance you may have!


Per Karen, I am chiming in! Mia had an IVDD episode at age seven. There is a great support group with a forum at Dodgerslist.com that I highly recommend you join. This list was started by someone who had a Dachshund with IVDD and this group has saved probably thousands of dogs. They have great information out there. With Mia, we did strict crate rest for 8 weeks, carrying her out to go potty and keeping the potty sniffing to a minimum. She was on NSAIDs for a couple weeks. They say it takes up to 8 weeks for a disc to fully heal. It may take less time if not as severe. However, the key thing is...every move they make can be dangerous until the disc is fully healed. What happens is that some of the substance in the disc comes out and this puts pressure on the spinal cord. It will eventually be absorbed by the body and heal over. However, until then movement can cause damage to the spinal cord.

Your dog absolutely must not jump on and off furniture or do stairs now or ever again. Once they have a disc problem, it tends to happen again. With Mia I have been very strict and she has never done stairs or jumped on and off furniture since her episode. And...she has never had another episode. She runs, plays and digs...no problem. But absolutely no furniture jumping or stairs. I have seen this time again where people do not restrict their dogs and they have another episode. And I know you know how scary this is and do not want it to happen again. So please restrict your dog.

Good news is that following this conservative protocol and restricting the jumping and stairs, most dogs fully recover and lead long happy lives. It is NOT advisable to do any chiropractic or acupuncture or anything else like that until after the strict crate period. Chiropractic could actually cause further damage at this point.

Although some dogs do require surgery, most do well with the conservative approach. However, should your dog worsen and you see him staggering, this could mean he is starting to become paralyzed and a surgery must be performed within 24 hours to prevent permanent paralysis. This is more rare but does happen and you need to be aware of this. Dodgerslist.com has details on this.

I am so sorry for you. It is such a scary experience. I wish you the very best.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Just wanted to add...after recovery, exercise is great as long as it does not involve jumping or stairs! Exercise is good. I do not see where running would be a problem at all. However, I would start with walking and work your way up.


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

Thank you so much all of you, especially @mudpuppymama! Super helpful to hear the level of restriction you did at first with Mia, and such a relief to hear you’ve been able to avoid any further issues. I’m going to check out the resource you shared right now— seems like it will be incredibly helpful as we figure out how to navigate this with Charlie.

We still don’t have a 100% confirmed diagnosis as we’re waiting for the X-rays to come back, and which point we’ll follow up with his regular vet too. For now, he’s begrudgingly crated (he slept in a crate every night for the first 2 years of his life, but he never liked being in there when there was anything going on or we were out of the house. I think I may try setting up an x-pen small (so it similarly restricts him, as he didn’t fuss about this set up as much as the enclosed crate when he was little.

@EvaE1izabeth that’s definitely the challenge we’re having— clearly the pain meds are working, which is great, but he doesn’t understand why we’re restricting him. He’ll catch on quickly, and has already taken to getting picked up to come back inside after potty breaks. He does his thing, then turns around to face toward our house and looks at me like ‘ok you are permitted to carry me.’ 🤣 Did any of you use a sling or stroller for the recovery period? Trying to think about safe ways to keep him happy and stimulated during this initial period in particular.

Thank you all again for the well wishes and support... will let you know what we hear from the vet!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Lisa Walker said:


> ...I think I may try setting up an x-pen small (so it similarly restricts him, as he didn’t fuss about this set up as much as the enclosed crate when he was little.
> ...


Perry does not have this diagnosis, but depending on how he needs to be restricted, I'd be careful with an expen - I know when Perry has been on restriction we couldn't do an expen (or even spend too much time just on the floor of the house) because Perry spends a lot of time jumping around on his back legs, which I imagine would NOT be good for a potential back / vertebrae injury. I'd check with your vet (or that special forum) before allowing that if he jumps around like that as well. (If he prefers to keep all 4 feet on the ground then you're probably ok  )


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

An expen can be a dangerous place for an IVDD dog because getting up on the hind legs or jumping on the hind legs is terrible for the spine! The recovery suite needs to be a place where the dog has just enough room to stand up and turn around. I was extremely lucky because Mia loves her crate. However, there are ways to make the crate more appealing. Here are some suggestions...

1. Use a wire crate which is more open so the dog feels more a part of what is going on.
2. Put the crate on sliders or wheels so the dog can be moved around and be where the action is.
3. Make sure there is a nice mattress in there. Mia also likes a blanket in her crate.

As far as meds, the most important med is typically prednisone or an NSAID. This is because these help to get the inflammation down. Sometimes they also give pain meds in addition. Initially, Mia got a shot of morphine I believe. After that, Mia did well with just the NSAID because once the inflammation goes down, the pain starts to go away. I am not a fan of prednisone and prefer the NSAIDs which are the lesser of two evils IMO. If Charlie is getting too rambunctious then maybe he no longer needs the pain med but he would still need the NSAID. Dodgerslist is helpful about what meds are typically used. Also some vets are not too knowledgeable about IVDD although I think more and more are. So Dodgerslist.com can provide some sanity checks on what your vet is doing. It does get dangerous when the dog starts feeling good and you definitely want to avoid going backwards.

As far as a stroller, that could also be dangerous during the initial recovery phase. Anything where the dog is moving around too much could cause a problem. This includes baths, grooming, lap time and all sorts of things.

Good luck and keep us posted!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Testimony from person with IVDD dog...stressing importance of avoiding stairs and furniture jumping. She says she was told that her dog should not do full running but not sure about that. We cannot keep our dogs in bubbles but we CAN avoid jumping off furniture and stairs. Nothing good comes out of those things. May not hurt a healthy dog but really not something a dog needs to be doing who is prone to injury. Small price to pay.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I dont see how running with any kind of back or pelvis injury wouldn’t aggravate a problem. Sundance runs like he’s a doggie Olympian, there’s no such thing as a “gentle jog” for him. I agree that it’s not realistic to control every day running after recovery, but even with the little I know, if my dog had IVDD I wouldn’t let him run in an off leash dog park with big dogs, either. Sundance’s run is like he’s flying! I kept the hallway gated for a long time after he seemed better, first DH started taking him on walks again, slowly increasing the length. 

Sundance is tall so I’m not concerned about him getting on our furniture now that he’s recovered, especially because our furniture is low, and because he doesn’t specifically have IVDD. I can see why that would be important to limit. But jumping off the back of the sofa was something I wanted to prevent, since he did it occasionally when he was excited. I thought it was probably an unrealistic goal, especially since he doesn’t do it often, but I actually have found him responsive to redirection. When I came home or at other times when I knew he might be excited, he would start to perch on the back of the couch and I knew he might try to jump off. I started preemptively picking him up and moving him to the seat, then I walked around and gave him attention from the other side. He gets it, now he will lean against the back/arm of the sofa until I see him, and then he will circle around and sit on the cushion and wait for me to come around to him. He also used to jump off the back of the sofa sometimes to follow me upstairs. So now I just pick him up and take him with me, or I go to the front of the sofa and tell him to “come” and he’ll climb down and follow me around instead of taking the shortcut. He hasn’t jumped off of the sofa in ages.

Of course we want dogs to be dogs, but I have come to see it’s possible to identify a few potential trouble spots and shape behavior around those over time. Another small example of this is DD’s bed is quite high since it has drawers beneath. He used to try and jump on it and would get stuck. Long before he was hurt she taught him to sit and initiate one of their tricks as his cue to be picked up. Fortunately he will cry until he’s picked up again rather than jump down, lol.

I guess my point is, if a dog is prone to a particular injury of any kind, it makes sense to show them other routes to what they want. There will be a time when someone forgets to close a gate or push in a chair and a cake is left out, but any reduction of risk is useful.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lisa Walker said:


> Thank you so much all of you, especially @mudpuppymama! Super helpful to hear the level of restriction you did at first with Mia, and such a relief to hear you’ve been able to avoid any further issues. I’m going to check out the resource you shared right now— seems like it will be incredibly helpful as we figure out how to navigate this with Charlie.
> 
> We still don’t have a 100% confirmed diagnosis as we’re waiting for the X-rays to come back, and which point we’ll follow up with his regular vet too. For now, he’s begrudgingly crated (he slept in a crate every night for the first 2 years of his life, but he never liked being in there when there was anything going on or we were out of the house. I think I may try setting up an x-pen small (so it similarly restricts him, as he didn’t fuss about this set up as much as the enclosed crate when he was little.
> 
> ...


I didn’t have to deal with IVDD, but my older dog, Kodi, badly injured his shoulder over a year ago, and the recovery took over 9 months. During that period, we OFTEN used a stroller so that we could take him with us on family walks!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> I didn’t have to deal with IVDD, but my older dog, Kodi, badly injured his shoulder over a year ago, and the recovery took over 9 months. During that period, we OFTEN used a stroller so that we could take him with us on family walks!


After the disc is healed and the dog is done with crate rest a stroller would be great. Bouncing in a stroller could be dangerous while the disc is healing. It could be really helpful though once crate rest is done and the dog starts walking again.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> After the disc is healed and the dog is done with crate rest a stroller would be great. Bouncing in a stroller could be dangerous while the disc is healing. It could be really helpful though once crate rest is done and the dog starts walking again.


Definitely. Same eith the sling. I’d be very careful about THAT without clearing it with the vet first.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> Definitely. Same eith the sling. I’d be very careful about THAT without clearing it with the vet first.


Right. I believe dodgerslist.com would have very good information for these types of questions. I believe many people did use slings. However, some dogs were partially paralyzed in the rear. I would check this out.


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

Thank you for the additional insight here! Dodgers list is a wealth of great information, and super helpful to show my husband in particular, who is a big softie and doesn’t want to ‘be mean,’ but he’s come around to recognizing there is nothing mean about this, it’s just keeping him safe and protected from even more serious and life-altering issues. That’s the kindest and most loving thing we can do right now! (And tell him what a good boy he and give him lots of pets as he is lying quietly

@mudpuppymama one other question for you— how did they confirm Mia’s diagnosis? Did you go to a neurologist or regular vet? Was it based on symptoms? Ultrasound? As I mentioned, they did an X-ray, but I have seen that x-rays can help you rule out other stuff (like a tumor) but I that only ultrasounds or more advanced imaging like MRIs or CT scans can 100% confirm. Was that your experience? We are still awaiting more from his vet (tricky bc they haven’t actually examined him but we asked them to let us know their thoughts on next steps based on the ER report) but they’re basically saying in the meantime just behave as if that’s what it is, and do the very restrictive crate rest. So that’s what we’re doing! He’s getting used to it, thankfully, as there was less whining today.

Thank you all again— I’ve been loving the community these last few months (mostly as a source of daily joy w cute puppy pics!) but feeling super appreciative of it (and you!) the last few days as we navigate this situation! Now I will seek out the latest cute puppy pics 😊


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Lisa, I am so happy your husband has seen the light and realizes that restricting and protecting Charlie from further injury is not being mean!!!! And a few weeks of crate rest is really nothing compared to the length of a dog’s life!

When Mia had her problem I actually went to a nearby vet that I had never even been to before because the current vet I was using was very far and closing soon. I actually lucked out because the vet I took her to was knowledgeable about IVDD. She actually diagnosed Mia by feeling down her spine and at one point Mia screamed. She also ruled out soft tissue injury. Per my understanding, the only way to determine for sure it is IVDD is by MRI. An MRI is required when surgery is done to determine the exact location of the offending disc. The vet recommended the conservative approach with Mia with strict crate rest and anti inflammatory drugs. Spinal surgery is NOT something I want to do unless absolutely necessary. I also got a lecture from the vet about all the back problems she has seen in small dogs which she attributes to jumping off furniture and stairs. NOTE: Just passing this on...people reading this please do not shoot the messenger.

Folks in a dog group I belonged to recommended Dodgerslist.com and I joined the forum out there. They are wonderful and very supportive people. I actually think all dog owners should be aware of IVDD and the warning signs. I had never heard of it.

I was just wondering...how old is Charlie?

Keep the faith. Sounds like Charlie is doing great. When he recovers, I highly recommend avoiding all future jumping off furniture and doing stairs. Small price to pay for a healthy spine!


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

Charlie just turned 9 a week ago... How old is Mia? The ER seemed knowledgable about IVDD and explained it well, but then only said 2 weeks ‘quiet time,’ which seems way under what everything else I’ve read suggests! So hoping to hear from his regular vet today. Even if they’re not 100% certain, it seems like there’s no harm in keeping him on crate rest for now, and making sure jumping isn’t in his future! We have been trying to restrict it somewhat as he’s gotten older (like he did a cute ‘dance’ trick when he was a puppy that I haven’t had him do in a couple of years) but we would FAR rather have a healthy happy dog than allow him to continue jumping. He’s a smart boy so he will catch on quickly Im sure, even if he doesn’t quite ‘get’ why we’ve suddenly changed our mind!

The one thing that is ‘funny’ about the timing here is that just last week, I heard from a breeder I’ve been on the waitlist for a while that she’s expecting puppies in June, and hopes to have one for me (no guarantees until they’re born and evaluated, of course!) So now of course we are questioning if that’s right for charlie, or if he’d be better as an only dog for the remainder (hopefully another 6+ years!!) of his life. He still has a lot of energy but tends toward laziness (helpful in this situation) and loves other dogs, so in addition to wanting another dog, we thought it would be great for him to have a younger companion to keep him active, but now are not so sure. No need to decide now, but such are the complications of life!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

As far as restriction, I personally would take the advice of Dodgerslist over a vet. Dodgerslist follows up with people on how their dogs do after they are treated by the conservative or surgical methods. An ER vet in particular does not. So I would want to know how many dogs are reinjured and go backwards because they did not follow the conservative protocol or did not continue to restrict their dog from jumping and stairs. You could ask on Dodgerlist if there is some criteria that determines if the strict crate rest period can be shorter.

One thing my regular vet had said to me...”You know this is going to happen again”. Well that made me even more determined to prove them wrong. IMO, the reason it happens again is often because the restriction is not there. It could happen again anyway but why increase the risk? No way I am taking that chance.

Mia will be 13 in August. She was diagnosed with IVDD at age seven. From what I have read, most dogs are diagnosed between the ages of 3 and 7. However, as dogs get older there discs can become more brittle and this could occur in older dogs because of age. Another reason to restrict jumping for older dogs. So Mia has been fine for about six years now.

The problem with getting a puppy at this point could possibly be rough housing. I am not sure this would be the best time. This would be a good question for Dodgerslist.

One thing to note if getting another puppy...the chances of IVDD go way up with early spay and neuter. Mia was spayed at six months.


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

mudpuppymama said:


> As far as restriction, I personally would take the advice of Dodgerslist over a vet. Dodgerslist follows up with people on how their dogs do after they are treated by the conservative or surgical methods. An ER vet in particular does not. So I would want to know how many dogs are reinjured and go backwards because they did not follow the conservative protocol or did not continue to restrict their dog from jumping and stairs. You could ask on Dodgerlist if there is some criteria that determines if the strict crate rest period can be shorter.
> 
> One thing my regular vet had said to me...”You know this is going to happen again”. Well that made me even more determined to prove them wrong. IMO, the reason it happens again is often because the restriction is not there. It could happen again anyway but why increase the risk? No way I am taking that chance.
> 
> ...


All really interesting stuff (especially about early spay/neuter! Charlie was neutered at 9 mos, but I’d probably wait longer next time). And I totally agree on people who have lived with it— unless a vet has personal experience, they don’t know what it’s really like on the day in/day out of it! So glad you pointed us in the direction of dodgers list... and it’s great to know that mia has gone 5 hrs without problems because of your careful management! Definitely worthwhile!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Lisa - How is Charlie doing?


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

@mudpuppymama thanks for checking in!! He seems to be doing well... he’s not happy with the confinement, but does seem to be acclimating, and he doesn’t seem to be in pain, which is a huge relief. He’s going off the gabapentin (last pain med he’s on) in a couple days, so we’ll see how he does after that, but we’re hopeful that it will heal on it’s own and we’ll be able to manage with retraining and modified activity. I found some scent work games online that I’m going to start playing with after his crate rest in hopes of finding new forms of stimulation.

In a very strange coincidence, his best buddy (my close friend’s dog, who is a small long bodied mixed breed... she definitely has a Havanese look to her), was diagnosed with IVDD a week ago today. It’s a bit less surprising with her— she’s 5 and has had some back issues, and I’m guessing the vet a year ago probably misdiagnosed her with ‘a pulled muscle’. Unfortunately, they’re having a much harder time managing Billie’s pain, so they have a neuro consult in a few weeks for an MRI and possible surgery. It’s trickier for them— they have two young kids and a house full of stairs, so I have been passing along the great info you’ve shared and the Dodgers list resources. So feeling grateful and also wondering how I had never heard of this before, and suddenly two cases.... so I’ve been telling everyone I know with small dogs to really watch the jumping/stairs! Whenever we do get another dog, I will definitely be one of those ‘mean’ parents who doesn’t allow jumping from the beginning.

I’ll let you know how he does after coming off the meds! Fingers crossed!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Lisa, thanks for the report. Glad Charlie is doing better. As far as IVDD goes, I also had not heard of it. I think it is something every dog owner should be knowledgeable about it so they can take action quickly which can make all the difference in the world. It would be great if vets were more knowledgeable too. Dodgerlist does try to educate vets about IVDD.

IVDD is actually more common than we think. I know several dogs with back issues, different breeds. Your friend’s dog may be part Shitzu...they are very high risk. It does not always get to the point of needing surgery but definitely can. Dogs with longer backs are more at risk.

As far as being a mean “non jumping” mom, reducing the risk of IVDD is not being mean. Alot of behaviors are just habits. I will do anything to prevent my dog from potential pain and suffering. Would you let your two year old repeatedly jump off a sofa or bed? No difference in my mind. My dogs have not jumped off furniture in six years and are both very happy.

Hang in there!


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

mudpuppymama said:


> Lisa, thanks for the report. Glad Charlie is doing better. As far as IVDD goes, I also had not heard of it. I think it is something every dog owner should be knowledgeable about it so they can take action quickly which can make all the difference in the world. It would be great if vets were more knowledgeable too. Dodgerlist does try to educate vets about IVDD.
> 
> IVDD is actually more common than we think. I know several dogs with back issues, different breeds. Your friend’s dog may be part Shitzu...they are very high risk. It does not always get to the point of needing surgery but definitely can. Dogs with longer backs are more at risk.
> 
> ...


10000% agree about it not being actually “mean.” Luckily, I’ve always been a big believer in obedience training and recognize that it’s so critical to a healthy, happy dog that people love being around (Charlie is welcome everywhere, including my work, in large part because he doesn’t beg, steal food, jump, lick excessively...) So it’s just changing the paradigm for him, and I will never let another dog I have jump on anything. And am telling everyone I know about the risks of this! 

My friends are out of town for a week at a family wedding, so we actually have little Billie starting tonight as well! Two little dogs on crate rest!! But I suppose misery loves company, so hoping they’ll both appreciate the company! My friends were worried about us having both, and looked at a dog sitter. But we’re still both working from home, and I feel more comfortable with it because I know that if she suddenly got worse, we’d be well positioned to be sure she gets the care she needs right away.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Lisa Walker said:


> 10000% agree about it not being actually “mean.” Luckily, I’ve always been a big believer in obedience training and recognize that it’s so critical to a healthy, happy dog that people love being around (Charlie is welcome everywhere, including my work, in large part because he doesn’t beg, steal food, jump, lick excessively...) So it’s just changing the paradigm for him, and I will never let another dog I have jump on anything. And am telling everyone I know about the risks of this!
> 
> My friends are out of town for a week at a family wedding, so we actually have little Billie starting tonight as well! Two little dogs on crate rest!! But I suppose misery loves company, so hoping they’ll both appreciate the company! My friends were worried about us having both, and looked at a dog sitter. But we’re still both working from home, and I feel more comfortable with it because I know that if she suddenly got worse, we’d be well positioned to be sure she gets the care she needs right away.


Oh wow so glad you are able to care for your friend’s dog. One fear having a dog with an issue is finding someone with the knowledge necessary to take care of it. Billie is in great hands! Good for you for educating folks about IVDD too!


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

An update on my Charlie— he’s doing REALLY well! He’s been off pain meds for a couple of weeks now, isn’t showing signs of pain, and his gate is normal (he was a bit hunched, which made him walk kind of funny). 5 weeks down, 3 to go on crate rest. We’re actually keeping my friend’s dog, Billie, longer than anticipated because they both seem to be very happy with the company…. My friend also has two very young kids, so their house is pretty much never quiet and lots of stimuli. They’re crated most of the time in separate crates in the same room, but when we are here and quiet (ie nothing would make them get excited/try to jump), we put have them in a small x-pen together in the living room, which they’ve particularly enjoyed.

Seeing Charlie with Billie has actually reinforced that we should get a second dog. He is SO relaxed with her here, and doesn’t seem jealous even when she’s all up in our business. I asked on Dodgerslist what they thought about adding a puppy, and they basically said that it depends on the dog— if they want to wrestle, it’s not good, but if they don’t show interest in that type of play, it would be ok. Charlie was a very big wrestler when younger (and he and Billie used to wrestle together for HOURS when she was a puppy) but really stopped a year or two ago. He still loves to run and play chase (which the IVDD experts seem to say should be fine, eventually). So, we are going to see how the end of crate rest, reintroduction of some activity, and retraining go, but looks like we may be bringing a puppy home in September (a breeder I found and like based on our convos— and have been on the waitlist for since February— just had a litter; we are going to visit in early August).

Here’s a pic of the two jailbirds from our wild Saturday night 🤣 Charlie on the left (9 year old, ~17lb Havanese) Billie on the right (4 year old, ~1lb mixed breed). Isn’t it nice that they’re color coordinated? Lol


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

@Lisa Walker - How wonderful! It sounds like Charlie is doing great. Thanks so much for the update!


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

That’s such good news about Charlie☺ Thank you for sharing. Such a lovely picture of them both, you can really tell just how content they are in one another’s company🥰


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lisa Walker said:


> An update on my Charlie— he’s doing REALLY well! He’s been off pain meds for a couple of weeks now, isn’t showing signs of pain, and his gate is normal (he was a bit hunched, which made him walk kind of funny). 5 weeks down, 3 to go on crate rest. We’re actually keeping my friend’s dog, Billie, longer than anticipated because they both seem to be very happy with the company…. My friend also has two very young kids, so their house is pretty much never quiet and lots of stimuli. They’re crated most of the time in separate crates in the same room, but when we are here and quiet (ie nothing would make them get excited/try to jump), we put have them in a small x-pen together in the living room, which they’ve particularly enjoyed.
> 
> Seeing Charlie with Billie has actually reinforced that we should get a second dog. He is SO relaxed with her here, and doesn’t seem jealous even when she’s all up in our business. I asked on Dodgerslist what they thought about adding a puppy, and they basically said that it depends on the dog— if they want to wrestle, it’s not good, but if they don’t show interest in that type of play, it would be ok. Charlie was a very big wrestler when younger (and he and Billie used to wrestle together for HOURS when she was a puppy) but really stopped a year or two ago. He still loves to run and play chase (which the IVDD experts seem to say should be fine, eventually). So, we are going to see how the end of crate rest, reintroduction of some activity, and retraining go, but looks like we may be bringing a puppy home in September (a breeder I found and like based on our convos— and have been on the waitlist for since February— just had a litter; we are going to visit in early August).
> 
> ...


Oh! That is GREAT news, all the way around!!! I know that Kodi, who is also not doing that great physically, is easily able to warn the puppy off and protect himself. So I think you should be able to work things out between your two! Congratulations!!!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Lisa, one thing you could do when the puppy comes is to avoid toys that invite “tug of war”. Tug of war is not too good for an IVDD dog. The longer more slender toys make tug of war more tempting. However, shorter or more rounded toys (even big ones) are harder to play tug of war with.


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

mudpuppymama said:


> Lisa, one thing you could do when the puppy comes is to avoid toys that invite “tug of war”. Tug of war is not too good for an IVDD dog. The longer more slender toys make tug of war more tempting. However, shorter or more rounded toys (even big ones) are harder to play tug of war with.


Good to know about tug of war! Funny enough, I tried so hard to teach Charlie to play tug but he never wanted to! His response is always “oh, you want my toy? Ok, you can have it!” Especially with other dogs— he will give up a toy in a heartbeat! Glad that’s one thing we won’t have to worry about 😊


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Lisa Walker said:


> Good to know about tug of war! Funny enough, I tried so hard to teach Charlie to play tug but he never wanted to! His response is always “oh, you want my toy? Ok, you can have it!” Especially with other dogs— he will give up a toy in a heartbeat! Glad that’s one thing we won’t have to worry about 😊


Ahhh that is great! When I brought my 8 week old yorkie home and let him out of the crate, the first thing he did was pick up a long rope toy and start playing tug of war with 6 month old Mia!


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

Thought it was about time for a Charlie update! We ended his 8 week crate rest about 10 days ago, and are slowly getting him back to walks etc. We have him using a ramp to get up on our couch, have blocked off the chair that he likes to sit on, and have a ramp for the 4 steps to the backyard. He took to them pretty easily. We also have covered our hardwood with non-skid rugs…our house looks ridiculous, but we want him to be safe and it is so hard to keep him from sliding on the hardwood, even with his pads trimmed and nails clipped short. He had his wellness check up on Saturday, and the vet suggested rehab to strengthen his core, in hopes of avoiding another episode in the future. Our insurance will cover it (and we have easily met our deductible for the year…), and there’s a well regarded place nearby, so figure it’s worth a try. @mudpuppymama did you ever do any rehab with Mia for her back? The place does underwater treadmill therapy (which I do NOT think would be good for charlie bc he hates baths and would probably freeze up/refuse to walk), acupuncture, chiropractic and other things like exercises and some high tech stuff like cold laser, and then basic strengthening exercises. I guess at the first consult the vet would recommend a specific course for him. Would love to hear any experience with any of these things!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Lisa Walker said:


> Thought it was about time for a Charlie update! We ended his 8 week crate rest about 10 days ago, and are slowly getting him back to walks etc. We have him using a ramp to get up on our couch, have blocked off the chair that he likes to sit on, and have a ramp for the 4 steps to the backyard. He took to them pretty easily. We also have covered our hardwood with non-skid rugs…our house looks ridiculous, but we want him to be safe and it is so hard to keep him from sliding on the hardwood, even with his pads trimmed and nails clipped short. He had his wellness check up on Saturday, and the vet suggested rehab to strengthen his core, in hopes of avoiding another episode in the future. Our insurance will cover it (and we have easily met our deductible for the year…), and there’s a well regarded place nearby, so figure it’s worth a try. @mudpuppymama did you ever do any rehab with Mia for her back? The place does underwater treadmill therapy (which I do NOT think would be good for charlie bc he hates baths and would probably freeze up/refuse to walk), acupuncture, chiropractic and other things like exercises and some high tech stuff like cold laser, and then basic strengthening exercises. I guess at the first consult the vet would recommend a specific course for him. Would love to hear any experience with any of these things!


Lisa, how wonderful! So happy the crate rest is over! it sounds like you are doing a great job at protecting his back. As far as rehab, I did not do anything with Mia except walking. I gradually eased her into longer walks, but it did not seem to take very long for her to be happy with longer walks. I thought she would be very out of shape after crate rest but that did not appear to be the case. I have heard acupuncture is very good. I think I would be afraid of the underwater therapy if he hates water. Mia seemed to do fine with just walking, however these other therapies are likely very good. I just don’t have experience with them. Mia also likes to dig which is great exercise although a pain for mom to keep her clean and we also play some indoor games where she gets some running in. Mia loves to run. However, we definitely eased into that.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lisa Walker said:


> Thought it was about time for a Charlie update! We ended his 8 week crate rest about 10 days ago, and are slowly getting him back to walks etc. We have him using a ramp to get up on our couch, have blocked off the chair that he likes to sit on, and have a ramp for the 4 steps to the backyard. He took to them pretty easily. We also have covered our hardwood with non-skid rugs…our house looks ridiculous, but we want him to be safe and it is so hard to keep him from sliding on the hardwood, even with his pads trimmed and nails clipped short. He had his wellness check up on Saturday, and the vet suggested rehab to strengthen his core, in hopes of avoiding another episode in the future. Our insurance will cover it (and we have easily met our deductible for the year…), and there’s a well regarded place nearby, so figure it’s worth a try. @mudpuppymama did you ever do any rehab with Mia for her back? The place does underwater treadmill therapy (which I do NOT think would be good for charlie bc he hates baths and would probably freeze up/refuse to walk), acupuncture, chiropractic and other things like exercises and some high tech stuff like cold laser, and then basic strengthening exercises. I guess at the first consult the vet would recommend a specific course for him. Would love to hear any experience with any of these things!


Kodi did underwater treadmill therapy for his shoulder rehab. He wasn’t a total fan either,especially at the height of Covid, when I couldn’t even go in with him. But I made REALLY SPECIAL treats for him (roast port or chicken) and they took it really slow with him, firstintroducing him to the treadmill part, then only VERY SLOWLY adding the water, all the time STUFFING him with his favorite treats! They also put a life vest on himso that he had added bouyancy. I don’t know that he has ever loved it, and we call it his “swimming lessons”. But I KNOW my vet wouldn’t have continued with it if she felt it was stressing him to much or that it wasn’t benefitting his shoulder. And he DID get used to it enough to put up with it. So your guy might surprise you too!

Another therapy that has been very useful for several of my animals has been low level laser… they have used it on Kodi’s shoulder, and when my cat was old and had SEVERE arthritis in her spine and hips, low level laser gave her 3 comfortable years after we thought we wer going to have to put her down. When we finally did have to let her go, it was due to her heart,, at 17, not because of her arthritis problems!


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

Thank you both so much! We have an initial appointment w the rehab vet in two weeks to talk about the best course for him. I never knew how many different specialty vets there were!! 

You make a great point about bringing really awesome treats— I’d decided that I would really make this feel like a good thing as much as possible (including lots of treats) because I know I won’t follow through with it if he is miserable and shaking like he is at the vet usually. We actually have a whole system for the vet and groomer where our routine leaving the house is different so he knows we’re going one of those places. We had to do this a couple of years ago because he started associating the car with bad things even though those were maybe 1% of all car trips! He now knows when it’s coming, which is sad, but at least he can relax most of the time. This outing will for sure get the normal ‘we’re going somewhere fun’ routine plus lots of yummy treats. Fingers crossed!!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

@Lisa Walker - One thing I would be a bit scared about is chiropractic treatments. These can be very risky for an IVDD dog. The other therapies like acupuncture and water therapy could be helpful, but I would be scared of chiropractic myself. IVDD is not your typically soft tissue injury and manipulation of the spine could cause some damage.









Chiropractic


IVDD dogs are not the same as a person with a bad disc. Risks with chiro to an IVDD dog is adjustment could cause more disc damage including potential for permanent spinal cord damage.




dodgerslist.com


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> @Lisa Walker - One thing I would be a bit scared about is chiropractic treatments. These can be very risky for an IVDD dog. The other therapies like acupuncture and water therapy could be helpful, but I would be scared of chiropractic myself. IVDD is not your typically soft tissue injury and manipulation of the spine could cause some damage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Although I would HOPE that a good VETERINARY chiro practitioner would know that, and work on the dog appropriately or suggest an alternate modality. As most people here know, I use chiro regularly on my competition dogs. As soon as Panda was pregnant, even though she wasn't "showing" yet, my vet chiro was completely "hands off". She said she just wouldn't take a chance with a pregnant bitch. I was a little surprised, because I knew that many human woman used curio for discomfort during pregnancy. She said the difference was that they have special tables designed SPECIFICALLY to accommodate the mother's swelling abdomen. Which, obviously, a vet doesn't have. She said it SHOULDN'T hurt the pregnancy, but if there was even the TINIEST chance, she wouldn't do it.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> Although I would HOPE that a good VETERINARY chiro practitioner would know that, and work on the dog appropriately or suggest an alternate modality. As most people here know, I use chiro regularly on my competition dogs. As soon as Panda was pregnant, even though she wasn't "showing" yet, my vet chiro was completely "hands off". She said she just wouldn't take a chance with a pregnant bitch. I was a little surprised, because I knew that many human woman used curio for discomfort during pregnancy. She said the difference was that they have special tables designed SPECIFICALLY to accommodate the mother's swelling abdomen. Which, obviously, a vet doesn't have. She said it SHOULDN'T hurt the pregnancy, but if there was even the TINIEST chance, she wouldn't do it.


I would HOPE so too. However, although IVDD knowledge is improving, I am not sure it is really where it needs to be. Chiropractic may be safeER later, but just coming off crate rest it does not sound like the best time, especially when there are other very safe therapies available. I believe in “do no harm” and that “less is more”. I also believe there are good chiropractors and not so good ones, just like anything. I would want to know specifically what the chiropractor’s thoughts are on working on an IVDD dog. I do think chiropractic has its place for soft tissue type issues and tweaks. However, a disc issue is completely different IMO. After eight weeks of crate rest, I would not risk anything that may result in a relapse. Mia has been fine for six years without chiropractic. People sometimes do not appreciate the benefits of walking for dogs providing that are wearing a proper harness. Sometimes “simple” works.


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

mudpuppymama said:


> I would HOPE so too. However, although IVDD knowledge is improving, I am not sure it is really where it needs to be. Chiropractic may be safeER later, but just coming off crate rest it does not sound like the best time, especially when there are other very safe therapies available. I believe in “do no harm” and that “less is more”. I also believe there are good chiropractors and not so good ones, just like anything. I would want to know specifically what the chiropractor’s thoughts are on working on an IVDD dog. I do think chiropractic has its place for soft tissue type issues and tweaks. However, a disc issue is completely different IMO. After eight weeks of crate rest, I would not risk anything that may result in a relapse. Mia has been fine for six years without chiropractic. People sometimes do not appreciate the benefits of walking for dogs providing that are wearing a proper harness. Sometimes “simple” works.


Sounds like you’ve given me a good test for the rehab vet!! I will see what they say about chiro, and if they suggest it anyway, that may be an indication to take their recommendations with a grain of salt as perhaps they don’t know that much about IVDD. Part of the point of visiting them is in hopes that they will be very well versed in it… our regular vet knows the basics, but, for example, only suggested 4 weeks crate rest. And I hear you on simplicity! We’ve switched to a harness, which is going well, and using food toys to get out some of his energy since he’s getting less exercise. Hoping with small changes, plus maybe rehab, he can live a long rest of his life with no further episodes!! It definitely gives me hope that others like you have been able to do it @mudpuppymama !!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Lisa Walker said:


> Sounds like you’ve given me a good test for the rehab vet!! I will see what they say about chiro, and if they suggest it anyway, that may be an indication to take their recommendations with a grain of salt as perhaps they don’t know that much about IVDD. Part of the point of visiting them is in hopes that they will be very well versed in it… our regular vet knows the basics, but, for example, only suggested 4 weeks crate rest. And I hear you on simplicity! We’ve switched to a harness, which is going well, and using food toys to get out some of his energy since he’s getting less exercise. Hoping with small changes, plus maybe rehab, he can live a long rest of his life with no further episodes!! It definitely gives me hope that others like you have been able to do it @mudpuppymama !!


Hopefully they are well versed in IVDD and will give you some good recommendations. I have a ton of respect for Dodgerslist and all the knowledge they have. They also follow up with the IVDD dogs for years. They checked up on Mia not too long ago. They know what works and what might not.

The vet I had while Mia had her back problem was also a chiropractor and acupuncturist. She didn’t think either of these were all that important for Mia and definitely not worth the two hour round trip in traffic with a dog who is not wild about car riding. However, every dog is different.


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