# Dam with minor hip dysplasia bred to sire with good hips



## LibbyC (Dec 29, 2017)

Hello,
I just want to understand what you all think about a dam with minor hip dysplasia being bred to a sire with good hips. All other test results for the sire and dam look good. Should the puppies be fine, especially since they're a small breed and won't be putting too much weight on the hips? I am thinking about putting a deposit down for one of the puppies but would like to make sure I'm not making a mistake first.
Thanks!!


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

I do not think a dog with any type of hip dysplasia should have been bred. I would pick a different breeder that has puppies from parents with normal hips. Why take an increased chance of your puppy having problems down the road?


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## LibbyC (Dec 29, 2017)

Thank you! I was nervous about it but wasn't sure if I was making too big a deal about it. I'm so glad to have honest and knowledgable people like you on this forum to help newbies like me!  I'm not going to go forward with the deposit and will keep searching. I hope I'll find a pup soon.


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## Cmward (Jun 28, 2017)

Molly120213 said:


> I do not think a dog with any type of hip dysplasia should have been bred. I would pick a different breeder that has puppies from parents with normal hips. Why take an increased chance of your puppy having problems down the road?


+1 for this.

One of the major factors we drill into people's heads about finding a reputable breeder is health testing. Isn't the point of health testing to certify your breeding stock is in good health with no known hereditary defects or health conditions?

Health testing then ignoring the results and breeding anyway isn't acceptable to me. There are plenty of pups born of parents who BOTH tested "good" or "excellent" on their OFA hip scores, why would you take a chance? If your pup should end up with hip dysplasia, it would be a lifelong health concern. Remember the Dam that is being bred was likely tested at 2 years of age (that is when OFA testing is done). If she is already dysplastic the breeder doesn't even know how bad it will get or if it will cause issues later in her life.


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## LibbyC (Dec 29, 2017)

Agree. Thank you!!


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## Cmward (Jun 28, 2017)

LibbyC said:


> Thank you! I was nervous about it but wasn't sure if I was making too big a deal about it. I'm so glad to have honest and knowledgable people like you on this forum to help newbies like me!  I'm not going to go forward with the deposit and will keep searching. I hope I'll find a pup soon.


If you are nervous about something and it doesn't feel quite right it is best to walk away. You are going to be spending the next 15 years or so with this pup, you want them to have the best possible start. I spoke to a wonderful breeder in MA who is a friend of a member here @krandall . She was telling me about two pups she imported for her breeding program, well they didn't pass their hip tests. Their OFA tests showed hip dysplasia, she said it broke her heart but she had them spayed and placed them as pets. That is what most breeders I know would do.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I agree with the people who have posted above. It is pretty common in all breeds (and an acceptable practice according to veterinarians) to breed a "fair" to a "good" or "excellent". But I don't believe there is even a formal term, "minor hip dysplasia"... Either they are dysplastic or they are not. If they are not dysplastic, they are graded from "fair" to "excellent". In that range, breeders need to look at the positive and negative characteristics of each potential breeding animal and make decisions. 

It IS important not to throw too many animals out of the breeding pool, as with each animal taken out, the gene pool gets smaller. That's bad. So, if you have a bitch with lovely conformation, a beautiful bite, great temperament and "fair" hip X-rays, it doesn't make sense not to use her, but you want to breed her to a dog with at least good, if not excellent hips, and other characteristics that make him a good match.

But the bottom line about this particular puppy is, no. I, personally, would not buy a puppy from a known dysplastic parent. This isn't something where you could have any warning from looking at the puppies whether one is going to be OK or not. You can't take final X-rays to know if a dog has good hips until they are two. By then, you will love that dog way too much to even consider giving it back, even if the seller would take it back. Much more commonly, a pet owner wouldn't ever even X-ray a young dog's hips. Not until it was 8 or 9 or 10, and having signs of pain, would they consider x-raying it. 

What then? You find you have a dysplastic dog, put it on pain killers, and keep it comfortable for as long as you can. There is no cure and no surgery that will correct dysplasia. It is true that small breeds have less trouble with bad hips than heavier breeds. It's also true that dogs with worse hips are likely to have more trouble than dogs with marginal hips. But... why even start down that road? Find a puppy from a breeder who does paper health testing and breeds responsibly.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I would need to see the xrays. To be very honest, the rating is subjective enough that poor positioning during the xray can make the hips look worse than they are. I do want to be clear that I'm not supporting the small breed reasoning, but we've looked at hundreds of Havanese hip xrays, and have heard of more than a couple of prelims as dysplastic get an excellent rating later-all because of the poor preliminary xrays.

For this reason, I'd want to see the xrays. Havanese legs can easily be pulled out of the socket enough that the person doing the rating can't be expected to do anything but give it a dysplastic rating. Also, if the dog is tilted to one side, it can look like the socket is not large enough to get a better rating.

If the xray had good positioning, and looked less than ideal, I'd pass. If it was an xray poor enough that I really couldn't tell, I would ask for better xrays. Many times, the only difference between a Good, and an Excellent is the quality of the xray. It's hard to get an excellent without putting the dog under. We often send an xray off, knowing it will get a Good, even though we also know that if the xray had more perfect positioning, that the dog would get an Excellent.

Pam gets xrays emailed to her often to ask what the breeder should do, and I hear more "get a better xray" more than anything else.


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

Good info, Tom. I would still pass on this particular breeder. They either didn’t bother to repeat the xrays or they know for sure about the dysplasia and bred the dog anyway.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I don't disagree with that at all. It's just a shame that so few breeders understand the value of xray quality. I'm sure that many dogs have been eliminated from the breeding pool because of poor xrays. We first started looking at xrays when a breeder friend of ours had a dog that got Mild Dysplasia on Preliminary, and then soon after, got an Excellent once the dog passed 2 years old. On that particular dog, the xrays showed that it was obviously the same dog, but positioning in the two xrays was really poor in one, and almost perfect in the other.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tom King said:


> I would need to see the xrays. To be very honest, the rating is subjective enough that poor positioning during the xray can make the hips look worse than they are. I do want to be clear that I'm not supporting the small breed reasoning, but we've looked at hundreds of Havanese hip xrays, and have heard of more than a couple of prelims as dysplastic get an excellent rating later-all because of the poor preliminary xrays.
> 
> For this reason, I'd want to see the xrays. Havanese legs can easily be pulled out of the socket enough that the person doing the rating can't be expected to do anything but give it a dysplastic rating. Also, if the dog is tilted to one side, it can look like the socket is not large enough to get a better rating.
> 
> ...


But, Tom, as a breeder, if you got "dysplastic" X-rays on a planned breeding dog, and you thought it was positioning (and I KNOW that can happen!) wouldn't you go back and get better X-rays rather than breed a dog that you thought to be dysplastic? This breeder believes the dysplastic dx enough that she reported it to the potential buyer.... I guess we need to give her credit for that! 

I know, both from Pam and other breeders, how bad positioning (or cranking on the legs of a small breed dog) can make good hips look bad. A friend recently had final hips done on a bitch that she had recently purchased. Before purchase, they had done preliminary hips at 18 months, that looked great. The vet who did the 2 year old X-rays clearly didn't know what they were doing. Her spine is totally crooked in the image, with the predictable outcome that one hip looks out, and they are TOTALLY asymmetrical. She bit the bullet and paid for another set of films from a different vet, and the bitch has absolutely fine hips. Rated "excellent" by OFA. But that middle set of X-rays? Wow!

But I would THINK that if someone serious about the breed doubted the accuracy of the the X-rays, they'd go get another set or at least a second opinion rather than just breeding the dog anyway...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tom King said:


> I don't disagree with that at all. It's just a shame that so few breeders understand the value of xray quality. I'm sure that many dogs have been eliminated from the breeding pool because of poor xrays. We first started looking at xrays when a breeder friend of ours had a dog that got Mild Dysplasia on Preliminary, and then soon after, got an Excellent once the dog passed 2 years old. On that particular dog, the xrays showed that it was obviously the same dog, but positioning in the two xrays was really poor in one, and almost perfect in the other.


Guess I should have continued reading.  This is exactly what happened with my friend's bitch. (though in her case, the prelims were good, and the 2 year old set was obviously bad positioning)

Will OFA change a rating if a person sends in a set with bad positioning, but then later gets a better set? (based on positioning)


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I'm pretty sure that only a very small percentage of breeders know anything at all about the difference the xray can make, and just accept what they get. It would be best if it was cut and dry, but it's not. 

Pam is there when any xrays are taken, and if one is not good, she'll get another one made while she's there.

You can reapply with another xray for another rating, but if you know what you're looking at, you can save some time, cost, and trouble by getting a better one to start with.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tom King said:


> I'm pretty sure that only a very small percentage of breeders know anything at all about the difference the xray can make, and just accept what they get. It would be best if it was cut and dry, but it's not.
> 
> Pam is there when any xrays are taken, and if one is not good, she'll get another one made while she's there.
> 
> You can reapply with another xray for another rating, but if you know what you're looking at, you can save some time, cost, and trouble by getting a better one to start with.


Good to know that people can at least get it corrected, though, if they realize later that it might have been a positioning issue!


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