# Best piece of advice for a new Havanese puppy?



## gypsymac4721 (Aug 22, 2013)

Hello all! Introducing myself here before bringing home our new little guy on August 31. "Maestro" will be 11w2d when we bring him home next weekend -- and while we've gathered all our supplies and planned our "first week home" strategy, there's always stuff you forget! So ... post your best/favorite/most useful new-puppy-at-home advise that you've got! Thanks in advance!


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## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

Welcome Maestro and family! Such an exciting and very long week - the one before you pick up your new HAV puppy! When I picked up Leo, I took his bear toy which looks basically like a bearskin rug. The head has stuffing but the body is stuffingless. Anyway, I rubbed it all over his littermates and mama dog. I put it in his crate at night and in his expen during the day? He still loves his bear though I'm not sure any of the litter scent is still present. He tends to sleep with it, wrestle it and give it "love" when he's feeling frisky! I think it helped him settle in more easily having the familiar scent of his canine family. I am certain an old towel, t-shirt, etc. would work just as well. Others will have tips to share I'm sure. : )


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

OMGosh he is ADORABLE!
my best advice would be to have a solid plan for potty training, confine your pup if you can't watch him. Have "eagle eyes" on him at ALL times. Set him up for success, be positive and encouraging and take TONS of pictures!
Also remember to cherish the crazy puppy days.. before you know it he will be all grown up, mostly trained well respected member of the family and you won't be able to remember what life was like before he joined your family!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

gypsymac4721 said:


> Hello all! Introducing myself here before bringing home our new little guy on August 31. "Maestro" will be 11w2d when we bring him home next weekend -- and while we've gathered all our supplies and planned our "first week home" strategy, there's always stuff you forget! So ... post your best/favorite/most useful new-puppy-at-home advise that you've got! Thanks in advance!


A very good bottle of wine for yourself!


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## Ruthiec (Jun 18, 2013)

Find soft treats. We started with kibble and dried liver. But it took so long for Charlie to chew every treat that he forgot what he was doing by the time he'd finished it. We only really got the training going when we found soft treats.


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## tra_po (Aug 14, 2013)

He's so cute! We're bringing one home around the same time. I wish you luck!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Order, and read this book. It's required reading for our puppy buyers.

http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=2502


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## Ruth4Havs (May 13, 2013)

With pottytraining: take him out frequently and watch him every single second.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

Dana and I are/were new puppy parents. We read several books, on-line research, read this site and talked to friends. There is too much advice to put in one reply, but here are some of our most important take aways:

1. Keep your puppy safe and loved, but let him work through his anxiety and allow him the dignity to solve his own problems. Gibbs wailed the first 4 nights he was away from his littermates. Dana and I held each other, but we refused to bring him into our bed or reinforce his wailing. Each night the wailing subsided sooner than the night before, and he finally learned to go to bed without crying. As long as he's not in danger, hurt or terrified, Dana and I let Gibbs work through his own discomfort. All we'd try and do is offer one or two "It's OK" and let him figure it out. Now, in any new or uncomfortable situation, Gibbs looks to us to hear "It's OK", and generally remains calm and relaxed if we are.

2. Puppies get their energy and demeanor from you. What is best for your puppy, first has to be right for you and your family.

3. Consistency is key, but not to point of rigidity. Dogs are creatures of habit and are happiest with structure. Find a plan that works for you and your family and try to stick with it. BUT, if something is clearly not working the way you thought it would, don't be afraid to change it, because although dogs like structure and routine, puppies are adaptable.

4. Regarding Housebreaking:
a. Feed him at the same time every day. Regular feedings = regular pooping.
b. Take him outside:
(1) Every hour (except overnight)
(2) After sleeping
(3) After eating
(4) After playing
c. Crate train your dog. Dogs feel safe and secure in their "Den or Pen" and don't like to soil where they sleep.
d. Keep your dog in his crate/den/pen when you can't properly supervise him.

5. Get him use to having his ears and paws handled and get him use to having his teeth brushed as soon as you can. Make it routine as a puppy and he'll let you do it forever.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

If you have a long drive have someone with you. I bought a travel crate but Zoey ended up in a small laundry basket on my mom's lap. I also bought a x small collar and a very light weight leash so we could make some stops.I had wet wash cloths and extra bedding. We had to change it twice. Also if traveling have the breeder hold off on food ( depending on how long the trip is) I had a three hour drive. It will help the pup from getting car sick. I did however offer water. I would look into the best rug cleaner chemical you can find that takes the sent away.My sister has a cleaner that just sits on the spot I think it works great. love and patience are the most important thing.


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## misstray (Feb 6, 2011)

He's adorable!

Here's my piece of advice: get sleep now!


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## azcolaw (Jul 19, 2013)

I like Lalla's advice about the wine. 
I ordered "Snuggle Puppies" for both Ginny and Griffin. It is a stuffed dog with a battery powered heart that "beats" and a microwaveable packet for warmth. They still cried the first few nights, but I do think the stuffed dog was comforting to them. They both still sleep with theirs. Ginny tears up all stuffed toys, but has never tried to chew on her Snuggle Puppy.


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## azcolaw (Jul 19, 2013)

BTW, your puppy is adorable!!


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## Lila (Apr 9, 2013)

Adorable little guy. Wow, you're going to have so much fun. Everyone has great advice! I got great advice from here too and I had had a hav before  I read all kinds of books too. After his shots - around 4 months - SOCIALIZE, SOCIALIZE, SOCIALIZE!

Love him, don't stress over mistakes, we all make them - just do your best and again - Love him - which will be easy, he's sooo cute!!!


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

My best advise is believing something my mother always said to me when I was raising kids

"This too will pass"

Puppies go thru many phases, some are fun and great, and some are frustrating. But with lots of love and consistency, the phases pass & you end up with the best pup ever!!!


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

scheduled naps (they need 'em).
(Maestro is very very cute, congratulations)


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## DebW (Jun 11, 2013)

Watch his body language. You'll learn the signals of when he needs to pee and poop. It'll be "oh, he'd doing the poop dance - gotta go outside".


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

Do NOT wait until your puppy has received all of his shots before starting to socialize him.

*Socializing Your Puppy | ASPCA* http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/dog-behavior/socializing-your-puppy

_"Puppies are most accepting of new experiences between 3 and 12 weeks old. After that age, they become much more cautious of anything they haven't yet encountered. From about 12 to 18 weeks old the opportunity to easily socialize the puppy ends-and with each passing week it becomes harder to get the pup to accept and enjoy something that he's initially wary of. After 18 weeks old, it's extremely difficult, and sometimes impossible, to teach a dog to like something new, or help him become comfortable with something he finds frightening."

"Even though puppies' immune systems are still developing during their early months, if we wait until a puppy has all of his shots before socializing him, we miss our chance to do it. He'll simply be too old. The good news is that if you take some commonsense precautions while socializing your puppy, the risk of infection is quite small compared to the much larger risk of your puppy developing serious behavior problems with fear and aggression later in life."_

Good luck! -Jeanne- :cheer2:


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

MarinaGirl said:


> Do NOT wait until your puppy has received all of his shots before starting to socialize him.
> 
> *Socializing Your Puppy | ASPCA* http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/dog-behavior/socializing-your-puppy
> 
> ...


MarinaGirl's reply provides a great opportunity to discuss what you will often find when asking for advice. Very often you will receive contradictory opinions that are both equally valid.

A puppy's primary socialization period ends between 12-16 weeks, which is before they receive all their shots. If you wait until they receive all their shots, they will be more difficult, but no where near impossible to socialize.

Conversely, if you start to socialize your puppy before they've had all their shots, you can risk certain diseases, including Parvo.

Vets will tell you to wait until after their shots, and dog behaviorists will tell you to socialize early, but be selective with where you take them.

Who's right??? - I will insist both and neither depending upon what works best for you and your family. You can socialize your dog successfully after they have their shots, but it takes more work. You can't protect your puppy from everything, and you risk raising an anxious and scared puppy if you try.


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## gypsymac4721 (Aug 22, 2013)

I really appreciate all of the information and input - the last few posts regarding socialization especially! The good news is that our life and routine allows us to safely socialize fairly easily. The plan is for Maestro to go with me for morning and afternoon carpool, soccer practices and games, and a few other errands and activities. But we are going to mostly keep him in our SUV, allowing others to meet him but also keeping him safe from the dangers of being in shared spaces, and also giving him the ability to retreat to his own space if needed or wanted.

We will definitely be crate training him, and I'm hoping that will help with housebreaking – though I have absolutely no doubt we will experience setbacks. I will definitely look into some of these other suggestions and product ideas.

Thanks again for all the suggestions, and for all the compliments of sweet Maestro! Please keep all the ideas coming, and I will be back to post an update in the near future.


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

If you plan to crate train, I highly recommend the Crate Games program. There is a DVD available and some centers offer classes. I did the class with my pup and he LOVES his crate, comes in very handy!


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## RitaandRiley (Feb 27, 2012)

Keep him under lock and key so I don't steal him! Where is it you live again? JK! He's adorable!


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## tra_po (Aug 14, 2013)

Tom King said:


> Order, and read this book. It's required reading for our puppy buyers.
> 
> http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=2502


Okay, I just ordered it. Thanks for the recommendation!


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## ox3pxo (Sep 29, 2012)

fun advice: take a lot of pictures and videos when they're pups! I wish I took more of audrey!

not so fun advice: if he barks, remember to completely and consistently ignore him. otherwise... you'll have a lil barker for life!


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## RoutineAvocado (Feb 6, 2013)

tra_po said:


> Okay, I just ordered it. Thanks for the recommendation!


This book was so helpful to read in advance because I had some basic training games ready to do from day one. I would have been too overwhelmed to look them up and figure it out after the pup arrived.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Karen Collins (Mar 21, 2013)

Regarding socialization ~ at that young age, just exposing them to new sights, sounds and smells is sufficient. They don't have to go to the dog park and meet and greet every Spot, Ralph and Hairy. There's time enough for doggie socialization in the kindergarten puppy class. Sounds like you have a good plan to take him with you to lots of new places. He's adorable btw!

Oh and one more thing, someone already said to respect him and I agree. Puppies do better when allowed to be curious and explore their new surroundings as they are ready. Try not to force him if he seems reluctant for some reason. HOpefully your breeder as already been exposing him to new things.


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## puppy-love (Nov 9, 2012)

azcolaw said:


> I like Lalla's advice about the wine.
> I ordered "Snuggle Puppies" for both Ginny and Griffin. It is a stuffed dog with a battery powered heart that "beats" and a microwaveable packet for warmth. They still cried the first few nights, but I do think the stuffed dog was comforting to them. They both still sleep with theirs. Ginny tears up all stuffed toys, but has never tried to chew on her Snuggle Puppy.


Snuggle pup was great for Julie those first weeks and is her BFF and playmate (minus the heart and heater for safety.). Keeping her crate by our bed at first let me slip in my fingers to reassure her in the night. She was sleeping thru the night in no time at all. Puppy Kindergarten right away was an excellent decision. Make sure to relax, enjoy and love your beautiful fur baby! Don't let stress get in the way of this special time.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## FancyNancy (Oct 7, 2009)

Here's my advice based on what I DIDN'T do! Make sure you take time to ENJOY all the cuteness and antics of puppyhood. I got so caught up in what I was SUPPOSED to do - socializing him, house training him, crate training him, that I feel like I spent most of his puppyhood in a state of nervous anxiety! Now that he is all grown up and perfectly trained, I wish I could go back and enjoy the adorableness of puppyhood again. I forgot to appreciate it when it was happening!!! Good luck with your baby!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

FancyNancy said:


> Here's my advice based on what I DIDN'T do! Make sure you take time to ENJOY all the cuteness and antics of puppyhood. I got so caught up in what I was SUPPOSED to do - socializing him, house training him, crate training him, that I feel like I spent most of his puppyhood in a state of nervous anxiety! Now that he is all grown up and perfectly trained, I wish I could go back and enjoy the adorableness of puppyhood again. I forgot to appreciate it when it was happening!!! Good luck with your baby!


FANTASTIC advice!!


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## Karen Collins (Mar 21, 2013)

FancyNancy said:


> Here's my advice based on what I DIDN'T do! Make sure you take time to ENJOY all the cuteness and antics of puppyhood. I got so caught up in what I was SUPPOSED to do - socializing him, house training him, crate training him, that I feel like I spent most of his puppyhood in a state of nervous anxiety! Now that he is all grown up and perfectly trained, I wish I could go back and enjoy the adorableness of puppyhood again. I forgot to appreciate it when it was happening!!! Good luck with your baby!


AMEN!!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> MarinaGirl's reply provides a great opportunity to discuss what you will often find when asking for advice. Very often you will receive contradictory opinions that are both equally valid.
> 
> A puppy's primary socialization period ends between 12-16 weeks, which is before they receive all their shots. If you wait until they receive all their shots, they will be more difficult, but no where near impossible to socialize.
> 
> ...


Veterinary behaviorists are right. http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/puppy_socialization.pdf

free reading Before You Get Your Puppy by Ian Dunbar http://www.siriuspup.com/pdfs/before_puppy_sirius.pdf

After You Get Your Puppy by Ian Dunbar http://www.dogstardaily.com/files/downloads/AFTER_You_Get_Your_Puppy.pdf


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> Veterinary behaviorists are right. http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/puppy_socialization.pdf
> 
> free reading Before You Get Your Puppy by Ian Dunbar http://www.siriuspup.com/pdfs/before_puppy_sirius.pdf
> 
> After You Get Your Puppy by Ian Dunbar http://www.dogstardaily.com/files/downloads/AFTER_You_Get_Your_Puppy.pdf


I reserve the right to amend or change my reply after reading your links.

I respectfully submit it's too simplistic to think there's a right answer for everyone in all situations, but maybe veterinary behaviorists know all. In most life's situations, there is rarely absolutes. Life is matter of choices and every choice has it's own set of pros and cons. Additionally, not all pros and coins are equally relevant to each individual. What is the "right" or best choice for one, might not be the "right" or best choice for another, especially under differing circumstances.

I do know my friend took her beloved pet to socialize before having all of his shots, and he almost died. It wasn't some random dog park either, it was a place any one of us would have felt safe taking our beloved.

I also respectfully submit you can still adequately socialize your dog after waiting, it just takes longer and is more work.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

believe me they know. twelve weeks is critical after that it is much harder and some dogs never fully recover


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> believe me they know. twelve weeks is critical after that it is much harder.


I may have edited my post after your reply.

I rarely believe in absolutes.

Your second post specifically says "harder", and specifically omits "impossible". My friend would certainly take "harder" over the pain the illness caused.

I stand by my reply that we are discussing equally valid opinions as opposed to definitive facts. What is best for your situation might not be best for mine.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

My puppy class required all the shots before going to class. I socialized both in different ways. Maddie was only 8 weeks old when she came to my home. I took her everywhere. I had a friend who also had a new puppy so we played a lot at her house. I also was able to be around her full time for about 6 mo. She is so much more at ease with different situations. She is also more independent. Zoey I think was 10 weeks and hadn't really been socialized much. I think that two week difference was a big one. Zoeys breeder even said she hadn't really held her much. She just played with her litter mates.I waited and took Zoey to puppy class after her third shot. She had a bad experience their because the dogs were all large dogs.She was exposed to many more social experiences than maddie because I took conformation classes with her and showed her for the first year or so. She may just be Zoey and that is what she would have turned out even if I had gotten her younger or her breeder spent more time. I liked getting Maddie at a younger age but I also had the time to really be with her. Maddie never went to dog parks or puppy kindergarten. We just visited my friend and went on a lot of walks. ( I didn't worry about the shots we walked everywhere.) I didn't spend as much one on one time with Zoey when she was a baby Just like a second child.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Letter from R.K. Anderson to vets.

A Letter on Puppy Socialization from Dr. R.K. Anderson, DVM, Diplomat, American College of Veterinary Preventive Medicine and Diplomat of American College of Veterinary Behaviorists
TO: My Colleagues in Veterinary Medicine:
Common questions I receive from puppy owners, dog trainers and veterinarians concern: 1) what is the most favorable age or period of time when puppies learn best? 2) what are the health implications of my advice that veterinarians and trainers should offer socialization programs for puppies starting at 8 to 9 weeks of age.
Puppies begin learning at birth and their brains appear to be particularly responsive to learning and retaining experiences that are encountered during the first 13 to 16 weeks after birth [Dr. Anderson is saying that the prime time for puppy socialization stops somewhere between 13 and 16 weeks, although more socialization occurs after that time]. This means that breeders, new puppy owners, veterinarians, trainers and behaviorists have a responsibility to assist in providing these learning/socialization experiences with other puppies/dogs, with children/adults and with various environmental situations during this optimal period from birth to 16 weeks.
Many veterinarians are making this early socialization and learning program part of a total wellness plan for breeders and new owners of puppies during the first 16 weeks of a puppy's life -- the first 7-8 weeks with the breeder and the next 8 weeks with the new owners. This socialization program should enroll puppies from 8 to 12 weeks of age as a key part of any preventive medicine program to improve the bond between pets and their people and keep dogs as valued members of the family for 12 to 18 years.
To take full advantage of this early special learning period, many veterinarians recommend that new owners take their puppies to puppy socialization classes, beginning at 8 to 9 weeks of age. At this age they should have (and can be required to have) received a minimum of their first series of vaccines for protection against infectious diseases. This provides the basis for increasing immunity by further repeated exposure to these antigens either through natural exposure in small doses or artificial exposure with vaccines during the next 8 to 12 weeks. In addition the owner and people offering puppy socialization should take precautions to have the environment and the participating puppies as free of natural exposure as possible by good hygiene and caring by careful instructors and owners.
Experience and epidemiologic data support the relative safety and lack of transmission of disease in these puppy socialization classes over the past 10 years in many parts of the United States. In fact; the risk of a dog dying because of infection with distemper or parvo disease is far less than the much higher risk of a dog dying (euthanasia) because of a behavior problem. Many veterinarians are now offering new puppy owners puppy socialization classes in their hospitals or nearby training facilities in conjunction with
trainers and behaviorists because they want socialization and training to be very important parts of a wellness plan for every puppy. We need to recognize that this special sensitive period for learning is the best opportunity we have to influence behavior for dogs and the most important and longest lasting part of a total wellness plan.
Are there risks? Yes. But 10 years of good experience and data, with few exceptions, offers veterinarians the opportunity to generally recommend early socialization and training classes, beginning when puppies are 8 to 9 weeks of age. However, we always follow a veterinarian's professional judgment, in individual cases or situations, where special circumstances warrant further immunization for a special puppy before starting such classes. During any period of delay for puppy classes, owners should begin a program of socialization with children and adults, outside their family, to take advantage of this special period in a puppy's life.
If there are further questions, veterinarians may call me at 651-644-7400 for discussion and clarification.
- Robert K. Anderson DVM, Diplomat, American College of Veterinary Preventive Medicine and Diplomat of American College of Veterinary Behaviorists


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Karen Collins said:


> Regarding socialization ~ at that young age, just exposing them to new sights, sounds and smells is sufficient. They don't have to go to the dog park and meet and greet every Spot, Ralph and Hairy. There's time enough for doggie socialization in the kindergarten puppy class. Sounds like you have a good plan to take him with you to lots of new places. He's adorable btw!
> 
> Oh and one more thing, someone already said to respect him and I agree. Puppies do better when allowed to be curious and explore their new surroundings as they are ready. Try not to force him if he seems reluctant for some reason. HOpefully your breeder as already been exposing him to new things.


I agree that you should DEFINITELY be keeping your pup away from dog parks and unknown dogs before he is fully immunized. But, I STILL do that and Kodi is 4! Dog parks are a hot bed of (usually non-leathal for adult dogs, but still annoying) disease, and also often full of POORLY socialized dogs that could badly scare, or worse, hurt, a small puppy.

I DON'T think that an hour once a week for 6-7 weeks is sufficient to properly socialize a puppy with either humans or dogs. I would make DARNED sure that I was arranging opportunities to socialize with other, healthy, properly immunized, well mannered dogs as often as possible. Daily is not too often.

Agree with your second paragraph COMPLETELY. Socialization does NOT mean forcing a puppy into situations he's uncomfortable with!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> I also respectfully submit you can still adequately socialize your dog after waiting, it just takes longer and is more work.


I guess this depends a lot on what you feel is "adequate", and the innate temperament of the dog in question. There are certainly some dogs that you almost CAN'T make a mistake with. And there are some breeds that are more likely to fall into this category than others. There are other breeds and individuals within breeds) where waiting can be the kiss of death. You can EASILY end up with a dog that is so reactive that they are never trustworthy around other dogs (and sometimes people) if they are not INTENSIVELY socialized during that critical period. You can make them better; you can't make them good.

Personally, that wasn't good enough for me, and I was unwilling to take that chance. Even with a breed that, in general, is known to be even tempered and sociable.

Of course, the above does NOT mean that you HAVE to have your puppy in a formal puppy class at 8 weeks. There are many ways that you can successfully socialize a young puppy if you choose to avoid a class at that age, or if you don't happen to have one available. (a badly run puppy class is worse than none, IMO) But the socialization should still start young and be intensive if you want the best chance of a socially adept adult dog. "Home schooling" (a young friend of mine told me his family really "car schools", because they go on so many field trips! ) works for human kids, and it certainly can be done for puppies too. Socialization doesn't HAVE to mean a "class", and it CERTAINLY can't be accomplished well in one hour a week for 7 weeks anyway.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> Letter from R.K. Anderson to vets.
> 
> A Letter on Puppy Socialization from Dr. R.K. Anderson, DVM, Diplomat, American College of Veterinary Preventive Medicine and Diplomat of American College of Veterinary Behaviorists
> TO: My Colleagues in Veterinary Medicine:
> ...


Dave, one thing that I want to add to this is that the "big box" pet stores are NOT, IMO, a good place to bring young puppies for training, just because any one is allowed to bring their dogs there, whether they are healthy, immunized, or not. These are also one of the most popular places for "puppy classes" just because they are so visible. I would NOT use one of these store classes unless they had a separate room where training was held. In the stores around here, they simply put up temporary ex-pen gating around an area in the middle of the store. Any dog walking by can touch noses with a puppy, and strangers can easily reach out and pat puppies over the gating (possibly just after touching an infected dog). Even if I found a store that HAD a separate room for classes, and that was the only possibility around, I would still CARRY my young puppy through the retail area before putting him down in the training room.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yeah Karen , i'm not a fan of them either.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> I may have edited my post after your reply.
> 
> I rarely believe in absolutes.
> 
> ...


to me that's like taking one persons opinion over solid evidence that is common knowledge these days. Yes there' s a risk in everything we do ,but the benefits far out weigh the risks.like me believing a friend when he says he's smoked for fifty years , with no problems ,when the American Cancer Society tells us otherwise. you can believe what you want , I'm simply showing the opinions of people that know something about this after studying it. , not the opinion of one person in your case. The people that have problems with dogs are quite often ones that are over protective.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> to me that's like taking one persons opinion over solid evidence that is common knowledge these days. Yes there' s a risk in everything we do ,but the benefits far out weigh the risks.like me believing a friend when he says he's smoked for fifty years , with no problems ,when the American Cancer Society tells us otherwise. you can believe what you want , I'm simply showing the opinions of people that know something about this after studying it. , not the opinion of one person in your case. The people that have problems with dogs are quite often ones that are over protective.


My posts must have been poorly written if that's what you thought I was trying to say. Please allow me to clarify:

1. It is an opinion that you should start to socialize dogs before they've had all their immunizations. Many dog behaviorists hold this opinion.

2. It is an opinion that you should wait until dogs have had all their immunizations before socializing them with other dogs. Many Vets hold this opinion.

3. The opinion you offered in the second post I quoted is that it is harder to socialize dogs if you wait until they've had all their immunizations.

My friend did not have an opinion. She only wishes she had followed the advice and opinion of her Vet because she would have been more than willing put in the additional hard work, to which you allude, to socialize her dog if it could have spared him the pain of the disease he contracted.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> to me that's like taking one persons opinion over solid evidence that is common knowledge these days. Yes there' s a risk in everything we do ,but the benefits far out weigh the risks.like me believing a friend when he says he's smoked for fifty years , with no problems ,when the American Cancer Society tells us otherwise. you can believe what you want , I'm simply showing the opinions of people that know something about this after studying it. , not the opinion of one person in your case. The people that have problems with dogs are quite often ones that are over protective.


Do you really disagree that both opinions are equally valid?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but you seem to be saying that early socialization is better in all circumstances???

If so, I'm surprised a science such as animal behaviorism is so rigid, so "one size fits all"?

I would think there are many variables that could change the answer, such as:

1. Breed of dog - Havanese vs Pitbull
2. Owners with no kids vs. multiple kids
3. Whether or not there are other dogs in the household
4. Extended family with many kids vs no kids
5. Extended family with other dogs vs. no dogs
6. Community with many dogs in the neighborhood vs secluded neighborhood with no other dogs
7. Whether or not the pet owners will introduce their dog to others.

You are the expert, so if you are REALLY saying that socialization before immunization is best REGARDLESS of individual circumstances, then I will retract my comment that the BEST advice is SITUATIONALLY dependent.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

what about "socializing" via stroller? 
We had a front pack carrier when Tillie was a baby and we just took her everywhere with us ... thus avoiding the chance of disease while still getting her out and about ...?


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## azcolaw (Jul 19, 2013)

krandall said:


> I guess this depends a lot on what you feel is "adequate", and the innate temperament of the dog in question. There are certainly some dogs that you almost CAN'T make a mistake with. And there are some breeds that are more likely to fall into this category than others. There are other breeds and individuals within breeds) where waiting can be the kiss of death. You can EASILY end up with a dog that is so reactive that they are never trustworthy around other dogs (and sometimes people) if they are not INTENSIVELY socialized during that critical period. You can make them better; you can't make them good.
> 
> Personally, that wasn't good enough for me, and I was unwilling to take that chance. Even with a breed that, in general, is known to be even tempered and sociable.
> 
> Of course, the above does NOT mean that you HAVE to have your puppy in a formal puppy class at 8 weeks. There are many ways that you can successfully socialize a young puppy if you choose to avoid a class at that age, or if you don't happen to have one available. (a badly run puppy class is worse than none, IMO) But the socialization should still start young and be intensive if you want the best chance of a socially adept adult dog. "Home schooling" (a young friend of mine told me his family really "car schools", because they go on so many field trips! ) works for human kids, and it certainly can be done for puppies too. Socialization doesn't HAVE to mean a "class", and it CERTAINLY can't be accomplished well in one hour a week for 7 weeks anyway.


Karen, I can't agree more that a poorly run puppy class is worse than none. I took Griffin to a class and he was so frightened by a lab puppy lunging at him (in my arms; I never put him down and we left immediately) that his socialization has been very hard. That was the first time I had ever heard him growl. Now, he growls whenever he meets a new dog. I think he was about 11 weeks old when the incident happened. I'm so upset because I was really trying to do everything right and now he appears to have fear issues. He plays great with his sister, Ginny, who is 15 months, but is so tentative with new dogs. I take him on lots of errands and he gets visits from neighbors - he is friendly and comfortable with w people. But, there are no dogs in our neighborhood and positive socialization is hard to come by. What can I do at this age (21 weeks)? I feel like I should have started another thread for this, but since everyone was on the subject....


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## azcolaw (Jul 19, 2013)

Actually, Griffin was 15 weeks old when the lunging incident happened (checked my calendar). Not 11 weeks old as I just stated above. Wanted to have the facts right, if anyone has advice for me.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TilliesMom said:


> what about "socializing" via stroller?
> We had a front pack carrier when Tillie was a baby and we just took her everywhere with us ... thus avoiding the chance of disease while still getting her out and about ...?


Trouble is, Tammy, that's not really socialization. And both you and Tillie have suffered the consequences of doing what you absolutely believed was best for her at the time. You've had to work REALLY hard for only marginal success n helping her to feel comfortable with larger dogs. If she had had positive experiences with enough kind, gentle, big dogs during the sensitive period for socialization, even a few bad experiences wouldn't have made such an indelible impression.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

azcolaw said:


> Actually, Griffin was 15 weeks old when the lunging incident happened (checked my calendar). Not 11 weeks old as I just stated above. Wanted to have the facts right, if anyone has advice for me.


It's a tough nut to crack later on, and professional help is your best bet. Fifteen weeks is already awfully late to start.

It's hard to say whether what the Lab puppy did was so awful, because your pup never got respond and deal with it. If he had been on the ground, an experienced trainer would have been watching closely to see what happened. He may have growled, causing the lab to move off. If that didn't work, and the lab pup was still being rough, he probably would have rolled on his back, calming the other pup down. If this went on for too long, an experienced trainer would have separated them momentarily to see if the smaller pup wanted to get away or wanted to come right back for more play.

So it's really hard to say, just from your description, whether this was a "nad" class, or would have been a "bad experience" were the two pyppies allowed to learn from it with appropriate support and guidance.


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## Ruthiec (Jun 18, 2013)

Charlie was 13 weeks when we picked him up and so socialisation was a very big focus for us because he was already nearly out of the prime socialisation time. In particular he appeared poorly socialised towards other dogs. Our puppy class really helped. All dogs had to have had at least 2 of the 3 shots and there were always well trained older dogs at hand for very gentle one to one introductions - I clearly remember Charlie being introduced to the trainer's large Alsatian which immediately lay down without moving to allow Charlie to sniff him all over. He then very gently sniffed Charlie to get him used to the reciprocal sniffing. Then during the class there were specific sessions where pups were introduced to each other in a controlled way, initially matching size and temperament. I'm delighted to say that Charlie is now very pleased to see and wants to play with every dog he meets. So it wasn't too late for him but it was certainly something we focused on heavily in the first couple of weeks because we knew we were playing catch-up.

I think it's important to note that socialisation is much more than just with dogs and people. It's important to expose your puppy to lots of different noises and sights and all this can be done quite safely without exposing your pup to diseases. So take him / her with you to the bank, local shops etc. go and stand outside a school when the kids are coming out, stand near a busy road. All of these things can be done while you are carrying your pup and of course you need to judge how close to go, making sure your pup is OK with the new sounds and sights.


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## DebW (Jun 11, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> Letter from R.K. Anderson to vets.
> 
> A Letter on Puppy Socialization from Dr. R.K. Anderson, DVM, Diplomat, American College of Veterinary Preventive Medicine and Diplomat of American College of Veterinary Behaviorists
> TO: My Colleagues in Veterinary Medicine:
> ...


I just wanted to mention that RK Anderson died within the last year - just in case someone tries to call him.

RK was a great guy - co-inventor of the Gentle Leader. I was lucky enough to take a class from him in grad school.

My Sheldon went to both puppy classes and puppy play dates before he was fully immunized. Both required vaccinations appropriate for the puppy's age, acknowledging that there was some risk of disease transmission. He actually did come down with a respiratory virus. But to me the socialization my single child got was worth it.


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## DebW (Jun 11, 2013)

Just to add, I agree with the comment that you need to know your puppy class. I have a wonderful local Humane Society, which sponsors trainer-moderated play dates. I naively showed up at the "puppy class" and the staff took one look at Sheldon and told me to return for the "featherweight" class. We did, and it was a wonderful experience. He spent the first puppy class hiding under my chair. On the second, he was wrestling with Annie, a little Maltese. Better than TV! Except, maybe, Downton Abbey.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

krandall said:


> Trouble is, Tammy, that's not really socialization. And both you and Tillie have suffered the consequences of doing what you absolutely believed was best for her at the time. You've had to work REALLY hard for only marginal success n helping her to feel comfortable with larger dogs. If she had had positive experiences with enough kind, gentle, big dogs during the sensitive period for socialization, even a few bad experiences wouldn't have made such an indelible impression.


ya and it certainly didn't help that we brought her home when she was 14 weeks old so that window was almost closed... at least I can know that I tried my best. Unfortunatly a few really bad run ins with big dogs whom the owner insisted were gentle when she was around 4-5 months old just reinforced her fear and we have been playing catch up ever since... ANOTHER problem is that we don't know ANYONE with small dogs and the few big dog friends we have do not socialize/train their dogs and keep them chained up in their backyards.
We have taken many training classes and she does really well with THOSE dogs in THAT room, she seems to know she is safe and she can trust them ... it's the dogs 'out in the world' that she struggles with...


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Just deleted a reply to the original import of this thread, re 'best piece of advice for a new Havanese puppy'; I thought, re-reading page 2 of the thread, that I'd put it in the wrong place, but actually I hadn't - the 'advice' had just become a debate on the merits or otherwise of puppy classes....no reason why that should not have happened, but my point looked like a complete non sequitur....however, I think I will re-post it just because the original point, quoted, was such a good one, perhaps even more so in the light of the difficult subject of some of the puppy class stuff! So, anyway, here it is:



FancyNancy said:


> Here's my advice based on what I DIDN'T do! Make sure you take time to ENJOY all the cuteness and antics of puppyhood. I got so caught up in what I was SUPPOSED to do - socializing him, house training him, crate training him, that I feel like I spent most of his puppyhood in a state of nervous anxiety! Now that he is all grown up and perfectly trained, I wish I could go back and enjoy the adorableness of puppyhood again. I forgot to appreciate it when it was happening!!! Good luck with your baby!


SUCH good advice. It's so easy to feel so inadequate all the time, if you read all the books and worry about all the things you should or should not be doing. You are SO right, it's hugely important to enjoy the puppy time, too. I am made happier than I can say just watching Cuba playing with my Coton, Tycho; they do runlikehell around the garden together, and rough and tumble; it's a joy to watch the puppy bossing Tycho around, and a joy to see him (he's 6 years old) behaving like a puppy again. I couldn't have wished for a happier situation. They seem so equal in their games, despite her still being quite a bit smaller than him; he never pushes it too far, although she often does! If she makes the tiniest squeak he backs off. She's less good at reading his warnings, but he never seems all that serious about them, and usually joins in the fun again. Happy days!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

TilliesMom said:


> ya and it certainly didn't help that we brought her home when she was 14 weeks old so that window was almost closed... at least I can know that I tried my best. Unfortunatly a few really bad run ins with big dogs whom the owner insisted were gentle when she was around 4-5 months old just reinforced her fear and we have been playing catch up ever since... ANOTHER problem is that we don't know ANYONE with small dogs and the few big dog friends we have do not socialize/train their dogs and keep them chained up in their backyards.
> We have taken many training classes and she does really well with THOSE dogs in THAT room, she seems to know she is safe and she can trust them ... it's the dogs 'out in the world' that she struggles with...


Not sure how it works in the States, but in the Uk the advice is to keep small breed dogs with their siblings and mother until they are 12 weeks old. That means that one is, as a buyer of a small puppy, very much idependent upon the breeder to do some of the early socialising. Which may or may not happen.

I am in a similar position with Cuba, Tammy, so I so sympathise. My wonderful trainer is helping me enormously, and I've posted elsewhere about some of the things she's taught me. I'll send you a private message so as not to irritate everyone else with the latest we've been doing....


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## DebW (Jun 11, 2013)

I can get exasperated with Sheldon and the issues of puppyhood - Sheldon, put down that slipper, towel, toilet paper, etc. Sometimes I think I'd like to press fast forward to get him beyond this.

Then I'm reminded of a friend who is the mother of twins. She told me that whenever she reached the can't-take-it-any-more stage, she'd take her twins for a walk. All the people she passed would fuss over the twins and tell her how lucky she was, and she'd return with a smile on her face.

I'm doing the same thing with Sheldon! There's nothing better than an adorable puppy to induce friendly conversation with total strangers on the sidewalk.


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## Lucy419 (Jun 10, 2013)

Just to chime in with the socialization/risk of disease discussion- I kept Lucy pretty much indoors until she turned 10 weeks old and had her 2nd shots. I am a worrier to begin with so I would carry her around everywhere outside and we would be observers at the park, but wouldn't let her on the ground. It was at her 10 week vet appointment that I learned she had Giardia. So at the time I was ready to bring her into the world for puppy training and puppy playtime, another obstacle was put in my way. No puppy training class or people would want my pup around others. Now, Lucy is 4.5 months old, and cannot seem to get rid of the Giardia after 2 rounds of de-worming. So, I still cannot take part in formal puppy training. I take her for walks in the neighborhood and keep a loose leash when passing other dogs just so she knows that other dogs aren't meant to be feared. She is a bit intimidated but still is curious of them-which I always reward with lots of praise. The only other other dog she has had consistent interaction with is my parents' Hav every few weeks. They don't seem to mind the Giardia, as long as I keep her tush clean.

As an owner, (and school psychologist, trained in heavily in behaviorism) who had the best of intentions and plans for early socialization, and couldn't WAIT to start puppy playtime and formal puppy training, it doesn't always happen the way you envision it. My Lucy has yet to show any aggression or barking towards other dogs on walks. She is a playful happy pup who is timid and submissive around other dogs, but curious of them. I hope sometime soon she will rid herself of this annoying parasite so we can start to work towards good social skills.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TilliesMom said:


> ya and it certainly didn't help that we brought her home when she was 14 weeks old so that window was almost closed... at least I can know that I tried my best. Unfortunatly a few really bad run ins with big dogs whom the owner insisted were gentle when she was around 4-5 months old just reinforced her fear and we have been playing catch up ever since... ANOTHER problem is that we don't know ANYONE with small dogs and the few big dog friends we have do not socialize/train their dogs and keep them chained up in their backyards.
> We have taken many training classes and she does really well with THOSE dogs in THAT room, she seems to know she is safe and she can trust them ... it's the dogs 'out in the world' that she struggles with...


I know you tried really hard, so don't beat yourself up over it. But she IS a classic example. Because she's basically a very mild mannered friendly individual, these encounters "just" make her scared. If she had a different temperament, though, she could be lunging and trying to fight with other dogs.

Also, I think that breeders who keep puppies longer, and I know a LOT of Havanese breeders do, have a real obligation to make sure THEY are getting that early socialization done during the time the pups are with them.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> Not sure how it works in the States, but in the Uk the advice is to keep small breed dogs with their siblings and mother until they are 12 weeks old. That means that one is, as a buyer of a small puppy, very much idependent upon the breeder to do some of the early socialising. Which may or may not happen.
> 
> I am in a similar position with Cuba, Tammy, so I so sympathise. My wonderful trainer is helping me enormously, and I've posted elsewhere about some of the things she's taught me. I'll send you a private message so as not to irritate everyone else with the latest we've been doing....


Yes, it's common (though not across the board) for breeders to keep Havanese pups until 12 weeks here too. My breeder is one who is very good about early socialization. I got Kodi at 11 weeks, and he has been happy and out-going with people AND dogs since day one. (of course, we also did our part to continue his socialization going forward) My breeder doesn't insist on keeping puppies until they are 12 weeks, but wants people who take them younger to have a plan as to how they are going to handle the heavy training/socialization needs of a younger pup.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lucy419 said:


> Just to chime in with the socialization/risk of disease discussion- I kept Lucy pretty much indoors until she turned 10 weeks old and had her 2nd shots. I am a worrier to begin with so I would carry her around everywhere outside and we would be observers at the park, but wouldn't let her on the ground. It was at her 10 week vet appointment that I learned she had Giardia. So at the time I was ready to bring her into the world for puppy training and puppy playtime, another obstacle was put in my way. No puppy training class or people would want my pup around others. Now, Lucy is 4.5 months old, and cannot seem to get rid of the Giardia after 2 rounds of de-worming. So, I still cannot take part in formal puppy training. I take her for walks in the neighborhood and keep a loose leash when passing other dogs just so she knows that other dogs aren't meant to be feared. She is a bit intimidated but still is curious of them-which I always reward with lots of praise. The only other other dog she has had consistent interaction with is my parents' Hav every few weeks. They don't seem to mind the Giardia, as long as I keep her tush clean.
> 
> As an owner, (and school psychologist, trained in heavily in behaviorism) who had the best of intentions and plans for early socialization, and couldn't WAIT to start puppy playtime and formal puppy training, it doesn't always happen the way you envision it. My Lucy has yet to show any aggression or barking towards other dogs on walks. She is a playful happy pup who is timid and submissive around other dogs, but curious of them. I hope sometime soon she will rid herself of this annoying parasite so we can start to work towards good social skills.


Yes, unfortunately, sometimes health concerns HAVE to take priority over other issues. We had the same sort of thing with my older son. When he was little, he had SUCH bad asthma that he ended up in the hospital every time he caught a cold. We were strongly advised by his doctors not to send him to pre-school at the time his same-age peers started. In the long run, I don't think it made any difference at all (he's out of college and working, now), but I remember at the time, thinking what he was missing out on!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> Do you really disagree that both opinions are equally valid?
> 
> Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but you seem to be saying that early socialization is better in all circumstances???
> 
> ...


John socialization has nothing that those seven points have anything to do with. It is essential to socialize all dogs early , PERIOD. This position statement by AVSAB was hailed by nearly all those that are anyone in the study of dog behavior. It has been the most welcomed statement we've had. Please be aware that some vets are slow to change and they really don't have the expertise in dog behavior that a vet behaviorist does. That's why AVSAB is working so hard to get this info out there.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> John socialization has nothing that those seven points ...


Then please help me with the following discrepancy. I specifically listed the breed of dog as one of the seven. In one of your prior posts, you posted a letter from R.K. Anderson which listed the following as a reason to socialize before all the vaccinations are complete:



davetgabby said:


> Letter from R.K. Anderson to vets.
> 
> ... In fact; the risk of a dog dying because of infection with distemper or parvo disease is far less than the much higher risk of a dog dying (euthanasia) because of a behavior problem ...


Are you now suggesting that statistic doesn't vary by dog breed? Is a Havanese as likely to be euthanized because of a behavior problem as a Pit Bull? Is the survival rate of Parvo for a 4 pound 10 week old Havanese the same as the survival rate for a 10 week old Saint Bernard. If the reason stated by R.K. Anderson is relevant, than so are the rates of euthanasia by breed and the survival rates of Parvo by breed.

Additionally, the seven factors I listed will all affect the risk a dog has of being euthanized for a behavioral problem because they affect the opportunity a dog has to exhibit behavioral problems and they affect the consequences of potential behavioral problems.

I also perceive a more nuanced discrepancy between the following to posts:



davetgabby said:


> It is essential to socialize all dogs early , PERIOD.





davetgabby said:


> ...twelve weeks is critical after that it is much harder and some dogs never fully recover...


The first quote is an absolute. The second quote suggests two caveats:

1. "After 12 weeks it is much harder." - The amount of effort it takes is a choice a diligent dog owner may be willing to take to reduce the risk of infection to an unprotected dog. Harder implies it can be done, as opposed to it can't be done.

2. The converse to "Some dogs never fully recover" is that SOME dogs DO recover. To be more precise, the converse to "SOME dogs never fully recover", is that MOST dogs can. Presumably through HARD work.

This discussion is very similar to the discussion regarding when to neuter a male dog. As in that discussion, the trade-off is between behavioral issues verses health issues. Therefore, both points are equally valid because it depends which concern is more important given different situations. Which is why those seven factors matter.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

very complex questions. \my typing ability is limited. All dogs need socialization the same. no exceptions. From three weeks to twelve , max sixteen is critical. IF YOU WAIT TILL 16 WEEKS ,YOUR DOG IS MISSING THE BOAT. AND MAY NOT KNOW HOW TO swim later.


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## FancyNancy (Oct 7, 2009)

thank you Tillie for the compliment!


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> very complex questions. my typing ability is limited. All dogs need socialization the same. no exceptions. From three weeks to twelve , max sixteen is critical. IF YOU WAIT TILL 16 WEEKS ,YOUR DOG IS MISSING THE BOAT. AND MAY NOT KNOW HOW TO swim later.


Dave,

Please allow me to simplify. We are discussing two alternatives:

1. Begin proper socialization with other dogs during their primary socialization of 8-12 weeks before all vaccinations.

2. Begin proper socialization with other dogs after 16 weeks once they've had all their vaccinations, and be willing to put in the additional hard work to properly socialize your dog.

The trade-off is the risk of dying from a disease verses the risk of having a poorly socialized dog that might have have to be euthanized for bad behavior.

Scenario:

To properly compare the two alternatives, we keep all other variables static and only vary when the socialization process begins.

Assumptions:

1. Breed - Havanese
2. Owner - Davetgabby
3. Behavior Expert - Ian Dunbar

Alternative 1: - Davetgabby begins socialization at 8 weeks and follows the proper techniques, teachings, processes, advice etc. of Ian Dunbar.

Alternative 2: - For the purpose of scientific research (Please just go with the premise), Gibbs Dad convinces Davetgabby to delay the socialization process until 16 weeks after Dave's puppy has had all of his vaccinations. Dave is willing to put in all the extra hard work, and follows the proper techniques, teachings, processes, advice etc. of Ian Dunbar, including any additional socialization necessary to try and compensate for the late start.

Questions:

1. Does your Havanese in Alternative 2 really have a greater chance of being euthanized for bad behavior than your Havanese in Alternative 1 has of dying from contracting a disease while unvaccinated?

2. Do you really think your Havanese in Alternive 2 "can never fully recover" from his late start?

3. Do you really think Alternative 2 is an invalid approach?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> Dave,
> 
> Please allow me to simplify. We are discussing two alternatives:
> 
> ...


I'd look at Tammy's Tillie as a prime example. Is Tillie likely to be euthanized? No. But her interactions with other dogs need to be managed carefully, and at 3 years old, she shows no signs of being able to be comfortable around strange large dogs, in spite of INTENSIVE work on Tammy's part.

Get's back to what I said way back about what you consider "acceptable". In terms of socialization. I'm using Tammy and Tillie as an example, because I know the history. I want to make it clear that I don't blame Tammy AT ALL for Tillie's fearfulness.

I KNOW Tammy would be happier if Tillie was comfortable around all other (well socialized) dogs. Both she AND Tillie would be better off if Tillie felt more comfortable around other dogs. Tammy will, most likely have to keep up her work with Tillie just to maintain what she's established in terms of a flight zone for Tillie. It is highly unlikely that Tillie will EVER fully accept large dogs.

There are lots and lots and LOTS of dogs, particularly small ones, that people can "manage" who have never been properly socialized. But it's a shame when, in most cases, it is so unnecessary.


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## Zarika (Dec 16, 2012)

krandall said:


> I'd look at Tammy's Tillie as a prime example. Is Tillie likely to be euthanized? No. But her interactions with other dogs need to be managed carefully, and at 3 years old, she shows no signs of being able to be comfortable around strange large dogs, in spite of INTENSIVE work on Tammy's part.
> 
> Get's back to what I said way back about what you consider "acceptable". In terms of socialization. I'm using Tammy and Tillie as an example, because I know the history. I want to make it clear that I don't blame Tammy AT ALL for Tillie's fearfulness.
> 
> ...


I'm probably one of the most pro-vaccines people on this board. And I still agree with Karen.
I like her quote from before "You can make them better; you can't make them good. " Hobbes is 100x better. In fact , he's made improvement much faster than I ever expected. But I don't expect to ever get the wonderful Havanese personality out of him anywhere but in the "safety" of his own home.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

krandall said:


> ...I KNOW Tammy would be happier if Tillie was comfortable around all other (well socialized) dogs...


I'm sure she would too, but how would Tammy feel if Tillie had contracted Parvo and died, or contracted Parvo and went through the pain of recovery.

It's both easy and improper to compare the results of early socialization to later socialization under the assumption there were no adverse health effects contracted during the early socialization period. It's like comparing the best of both worlds, but that's not the discussion Dave and I are having.

I'm not the animal behavior expert that Dave is, but I am an expert on population studies, samples sizes, attribute analysis etc. The likely problem with R.K. Anderson's statistic:

_"... the risk of a dog dying because of infection with distemper or parvo disease is far less than the much higher risk of a dog dying (euthanasia) because of a behavior problem ..."_

is that it is probably measuring the incidences of infection and incidences of euthanasia over the universal dog population, which will skew the results and could lead to an erroneous conclusion.

Please allow me to explain:

1. Take a population of 1,000 dogs.
2. 100 dogs begin proper socialization at 8 weeks.
3. 100 dogs begin proper socialization at 16 weeks.
4. 800 dogs never begin proper socialization.

Including the 800 never properly socialized dogs when calculating a single euthanasia rate will skew the results because it is the largest subset of the population, would likely have the highest euthanasia rates, and doesn't possess the attribute being studied (when to begin proper socialization).

A proper study would segment the testing and compare the following:

1. Infection rates of the 100 dogs starting socialization at 8 weeks verses the infection rates of the 100 dogs starting socialization at 16 weeks.

2. Euthanasia rates of the 100 dogs starting socialization at 8 weeks verses euthanasia rates of the 100 dogs starting socialization at 16 weeks.

That would only be the beginning because it is possible that the reason the infection rates are low is because Vets have been recommending against socialization prior to vaccination. It is possible that as more and more unvaccinated dog begin socializing with each other, infection rates could increase as one infected dog could infect multiple dogs. This concept is already causing a concern at the CDC as it relates to human vaccinations. Many childhood diseases that were once thought to be eliminated are beginning to return as many parents have stopped vaccinating their children for them.

Also, to make sure everyone doesn't think I'm only cherry picking one issue, I do understand that R.K. Anderson only presented one of many reasons. A proper study would need to include much more - dog attacks, maulings, predatory drift, anxiety etc., but my point on proper attribute analysis is sound.


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## misstray (Feb 6, 2011)

Just my opinion, and the original poster may very well not have a problem with it at all, but I personally think this debate would be better off on its own thread rather than in someone's thread who is excited about getting a new puppy and looking for advice as he/she prepares for the arrival.


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## gypsymac4721 (Aug 22, 2013)

misstray said:


> Just my opinion, and the original poster may very well not have a problem with it at all, but I personally think this debate would be better off on its own thread rather than in someone's thread who is excited about getting a new puppy and looking for advice as he/she prepares for the arrival.


I have been in and out of this thread several times, and I've backed out quietly each time not really knowing what to say. At the very minimum, I've made a mental note to myself that puppy socialization is a toxic topic for sure!!

I'm active on a couple other non-dog-related forums and members do a pretty good job moderating themselves when it comes to hot button topics. Suffice it to say this is one of them - and just like many other parenting-related topics, there are some pretty strong opinions. I have my own opinion and plan that works for my dog and family, and trust that everyone else will give other members the courtesy to respect their decisions about what is right and appropriate for their dog and family.

I do sincerely appreciate all the thoughtful responses! I'll be back with pics after we pick up our little dude this weekend!

(If a moderator wants to close this thread to prevent it from going in the ditch, that's just fine.)


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> ....
> 
> Scenario: To properly compare the two alternatives, we keep all other variables static and only vary when the socialization process begins....


How wonderfully refreshing to find someone who understands how to think about variables!

If it were really true that after 16 weeks a dog might never 'learn to swim', the prognosis for rescue dogs would be so dire that I don't think anyone would ever, ever risk taking on such a pointless task.
Neurology, of dogs and mammals generally, is really far too complicated to make unsupported statements about time-frames for learning so I'm sure there must be plenty of scientific support; there are very definite time frames in some instances, but we need to see the evidence to say that it is a certainty that dogs cannot ever learn to socialise if it doesn't happen within a very specific time frame. It is true, for example, that if human children never learn language by, I think, the ages of 7 or 8 years old they never will. It is true (and is known as the Kissinger Effect) that if a child brought up in one language comes to a different country before the age of, I think (sorry so vague about specific ages, just can't face trawling through the data again at this moment) 9 or 10 then he can learn the new language and have no residue of accent (Henry Kissinger was 12 when he came to England, his brother 8 or 9; his brother had no Austrian accent, Henry had, as we all know, a very strong accent always, hence the name of the 'effect'); there's a really interesting effect in chicks that they don't recognise how to differentiate between different chickens (they know it's a chicken, but not which particular chicken) if they have been deprived of their company at a critical period...even more riveting, if they've imprinted on a human from hatching, as we all know, they think that that human is their mother, but better still, they then imprint on the non-chicken when they reach sexual maturity and only want to breed with the same kind of object as imprinted upon in their babyhood...so they'll try and mate with a pair of Wellington boots or some such! Anyway. I'm sure many of you know all this. My point is simply that IF there really are totally crucial windows within the spectrum of learning of pups then there will be documented evidence of this; I'm sure that must be what Ian Dunbar and his followers are talking about. Maybe Mr Dunbar could be persuaded to point us in the direction of the studies done to support his thinking? It would be really interesting to read up on properly...I've tried a cursory Google search on 'imprinting in dogs' and there is probably, amongst the mass of usual touchy-feely anecdote, some real research out there but it would really help if an expert like Ian Dunbar could point us in the right direction and save hours wasted barking up the wrong lamp post.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

misstray said:


> Just my opinion, and the original poster may very well not have a problem with it at all, but I personally think this debate would be better off on its own thread rather than in someone's thread who is excited about getting a new puppy and looking for advice as he/she prepares for the arrival.


I added my last post before reading this; I do take on board what you, and gypsymac after you, are saying and perhaps, in the light of these comments, you will think a continuation of a fascinating debate inappropriate in this particular thread. If so, I apologise. But I honestly think this is really interesting and has not, in fact, become any kind of a 'toxic topic'; if an energetic debate puts off anyone just wanting to be happy about getting a new puppy, then you are right, misstray, it should have happened elsewhere, but I think one of the vibrant and wonderful things about this forum is that threads evolve and spread and take off into genuine discourse. And no-one wants, for one moment, to take anything away from the thrill of new puppy-ownership; I can't get over the joy of Cuba - she's five months old now and utterly life-affirmingly gorgeous. Which doesn't stop me being interested in these discussions, but apologies if it is too much heavy stuff for this particular thread. If anyone else wants to carry on perhaps they could start a new one? I'm not sure how to do so elegantly!


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

misstray said:


> Just my opinion, and the original poster may very well not have a problem with it at all, but I personally think this debate would be better off on its own thread rather than in someone's thread who is excited about getting a new puppy and looking for advice as he/she prepares for the arrival.


Thank you for your post as I didn't realize our discussion was becoming distracting or worse. I enjoy a lively discussion because it's how I learn and vet various information.

I certainly meant no disrespect to Dave or the original poster. Dave knows I have the utmost respect for his knowledge and consider him one of the most knowledgeable and helpful members of the forum.

Dave,

If I have offended you, I apologize and thank you for your opinions and insights.

If not, and you wish to reply to my new posts and continue our discussion, I invite you to start a new thread.

Gypsy,

I apologize for hijacking your thread and hope our lively discussion doesn't dissuade you from posting in the future.


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## Lake_Mary (Sep 6, 2013)

gypsymac4721 said:


> I have been in and out of this thread several times, and I've backed out quietly each time not really knowing what to say. At the very minimum, I've made a mental note to myself that puppy socialization is a toxic topic for sure!!
> 
> I'm active on a couple other non-dog-related forums and members do a pretty good job moderating themselves when it comes to hot button topics. Suffice it to say this is one of them - and just like many other parenting-related topics, there are some pretty strong opinions. I have my own opinion and plan that works for my dog and family, and trust that everyone else will give other members the courtesy to respect their decisions about what is right and appropriate for their dog and family.
> 
> ...


Came across this thread and wanted to ask you how you plan to schedule potty business with all that car time for your puppy? I'm in the same boat; bringing home my puppy in just under two weeks and plan to bring him everywhere I have to go with my two kids! That's a lot of pick up/drop off time and not sure how to make sure he has a chance to stay on course with training. I plan to get a harness booster seat for the passenger seat of my SUV for these trips. Ideas?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I didn't read this entire thread, but OMG! I guess I was not a very good mommy!!! My vet is an awesome vet but didn't warn me about the dangers of disease before all the shots were done. I took my guys on hikes, big box pet stores etc to socialize them as wee pups! I am still not very cautious as they often put so much crap in their mouths on our hikes and swim in nasty water. I have gotten more cautious about drinking from puddles though. 

I guess I am glad I was a little naive. I got fred at 13 weeks and his breeder did not do much to socialize him. He was so fearful! I took him out right away and introduced him to everything. I still have the habit of telling people he is shy when they meet him, but they think I'm kidding. He is cautious, but a very friendly dog when meeting strangers now. It took a ton of work over his 8 years. I think if I would have waited 3 extra weeks to socialized him, he would not be such a friendly dog.


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

On this forum, there seems to be a bit of fear regarding letting our Hav puppies meet other dogs, people, explore their world, if they aren't fully vaccinated. I believe this fear is out of proportion to the actual risk of harm occurring, and that there are other risks more common than the transmittal of Parvo (e.g. getting hit by a car when walking on the street or riding in a car, eating something toxic, etc.), and yet these risks don't cause the same level of fear.

When I was a kid our puppy (Samoyed) contracted Parvo and recovered without any issues; she lived to be 14 years old and had a great life. I share this as a reminder that dogs that contract Parvo do not always die from it. As well, breeds at a higher risk are Rottweilers, Doberman pinschers, Labrador retrievers, American Staffordshire terriers and German shepherds. So this needs to be factored in when deciding the bigger risk - possible death from Parvo or poor socialization.

My vet and the training school where I took Emmie for puppy playtime and kindergarten encouraged me to follow the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior recommendations regarding socialization and to use the checklist on the ASPCA website to keep track of what my puppy was exposed to. I believe this helped Emmie immensely as she was raised in a rural environment and I live in an urban one so she needed to play catch up to become comfortable with all the noise, people, and dogs she experiences in her day-to-day life.

http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/dog-behavior/socializing-your-puppy

-Jeanne-


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Lots of good points. My guys are 9, 8 ands 7. Knock on wood, they have never been sick besides Scudder getting lyme disease. They've gone to all the place people fear, dog parks, pet stores, hikes, swims in ponds etc. They also grew up drinking from puddles! I never knew the dangers of that one....Anyway, I am happy so far that they've dodge the bullet


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## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

I am also one that thinks early socialization is vitally important and that dogs can suffer for life if this important period in their development is not optimized! I have adopted many young rescues over the years that had less than optimal early socialization. Though with stability and training they all learned to be good dogs, most had issues either with unknown people, dogs or other things such as noises or children.


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## gypsymac4721 (Aug 22, 2013)

MarinaGirl said:


> http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/dog-behavior/socializing-your-puppy


This is a great link! (Though I gotta admit, short of a Snowpocalypse out of nowhere, our little dude likely won't see snow before November or December! Rain and thunder we've got covered!)


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