# Should I just give up?



## Sherman (Sep 20, 2006)

Hi, I take Sherman (21 months old) outside to pee/poop 4 or 5 times a day. The last time is when I go to bed at around 9:30 or 10 p.m. That means he goes out around every 4 or 5 hours during the day. I expect him to wait until the next morning at 7 a.m. and not do anything indoors. But every couple of weeks he pees on a newspaper or small rug. A breeder had him until he was 3 months old and never took him outside to pee. He was very lenient about pads too. I thought Sherman was trained to do everything outside, but this overnight business is breaking me down. I'm tempted to put a newspaper every night on the plastic pad underneath my cats' litter box. He's peed on a newspaper there before. I just don't consider him housetrained if he's peeing on a newspaper at night. And why can't he hold it all night like he does most of the time? Will this ever be over???????
Thanks so much,
Carol


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

I'm no expert, but 9-10 hours at night ti'll the morning is a long time to hold it! I take my Beamer out for last potty at 12 or 1am... and he goes out in the morning at 7am, so he only has to hold it for 7 or 6 hours at night - he has *never *had an accident at night. On the wknds we sleep until he wakes us up to go posst, which is usually arounf 9am. So I know he can hold it for 8-9 hours at nigth if he needs to.

Ryan


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Carol - My guys do hold it at night, but I think I might have a reason he does that. When my guys get up in the morning, they come out of their crates & they REALLY have to go = cause last call in my house is 8pm, on weekdays they get up at 5am (9hrs) but on weekends at 6am (10hrs) If we dont let them outside first thing, I will have accidents with the 16 month old. If he is roaming free in your room at night, he may be sleeping thru, but as soon as you rustle and he wakes, he has to go!! And since he is not crated, he pretty much goes anywhere. Can you crate him at night in your room?? I promise it will make a difference as they wont go potty in their beds. He needs to be confined to a smaller space at night.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Carol, I have two thoughts. If in fact he will go in one place in the house and one place only- I think you could consider him house trained for both indoors and out. If he is going on rugs however, you may have to still supervise for a while to see that he knows the "right place" indoors to go. The other thing you could try is crating him at night. It is pretty unlikely that he will go in his crate and therefor learn to hold it. If you have never crated him he may complain at first- but he may get used to it-- especially if you keep the crate in your room. You obviously love him dearly-- I do know a few Hav Owners including my SIL who have dogs that will always make mistakes-- I think it would be better for your sanity if you could consider Sherman mostly house trained-- and if you can get him to understand the one place indoors concept- i would def consider him trained.


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## Sherman (Sep 20, 2006)

Well, Sherman is almost 2 and has never been crated. I used an ex-pen when he was a puppy. I'm here most of the time and he's absolutely good during the day. It's at night that he seems to give himself permission to pee inside. I have a crate, but would rather let him pee on newspaper than put him in the crate. He's used to sleeping on my bed with 1 or 2 cats. I'm sure he'd think he was being punished if I put him in the crate instead. I guess I'll put the newspaper on the plastic mat tonight and hope for the best. 
Thanks for all your thoughts. I appreciate you guys so much.
Carol


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Carol, 
If he's only peeing during the night, perhaps try limiting his water intake in the evenings. It was recommended to us to actually pick up the water dish by about 7:30 PM (except during the summer when it's hot).


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Carol..

I think Sherman might be confused with the cats. He's smelling the cats peeing in the house, in the box, and to him..he probably thinks he can go in the house too.

I have always heard that it is harder to housebreak a dog when there are cats in the house, some people don't have a problem, I'm sure..but others do. I do think smelling the cats is sending a signal. Animals do intrinsically deficate over/near others scents, that is just their nature.

is 10 hours a long time for a small dog? Yes, probably some. Gucci can hold it for about that long, but then again..she doesn't have to go too much...I think she has a bladder of steel.

Kara


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Carol,

Milo sleeps with me in my bed and has since night two. He has never made on my bed and he never got down on his own till the other night. I wouldn't trust him if he were up and down on his own during the night. It always amazed me that he didn't go for sometimes up to 12 hours and I always woke him in the morning to get out.

Ours is still an ongoing odyssey, but it looks like he's getting better (till he slips back). I too look forward to the day that I don't have to deal with his peeing on all my "stuff." Thank goodness he almost never poops in the house anymore. So I guess one has to be happy about the positives.

I only tell you this because it does get better. It's more of a question about what we can do to make it better. Hang in there.


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

I agree - it might be harder when you have cats and a litter box in the house ..
I did not crate Asta at night and he was able to hold it over night . I did pick up his water at 8 pm though .. His last potty cal was about 9 pm .. 
The dogs I have now are crated at night . They will never sleep on the bed that is just the way it has to be due to Cosmo's personality . They hold it very well over night .. Ahnold used to have a problem and he needed to get up to go but he is learning to hold it and it is better ..


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Thumperlove said:


> Carol..
> 
> I think Sherman might be confused with the cats. He's smelling the cats peeing in the house, in the box, and to him..he probably thinks he can go in the house too.
> 
> ...


I had never thought of that-- that is probably it, especially if that is where he is going. so why not just set up a tray next to the litter box?

these are the trays we use. the 24 X30" http://www.bassequipment.com/Home/Plastic+Pans/default.aspx

I guess the other thing you could do is put the cat's litter box somewhere Sherman can't get to-- like the basement with a tiny cat door. But if it is only at night--- I would say just assume he is trained.


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## Sissygirl (Aug 8, 2007)

Last call for Sis is around 10 - 10:30 p.m. and she holds it all night and goes out around 7 a.m. - if it's raining she has held it for hours. I just have to make her go and even put on a rain coat and take an umbrella and go with her. (DH just loves this - he takes turns, too)


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Carol, I agree that he is trained, just having a problem at night. Believe me, with three dogs, I dont go 2 weeks without at least one accident from someone - usually I dont even know who did it. And I would say my guys are trained, they are my fault as I am not paying attention, or allowing freedoms that I should not. I would bet if there was a way to keep Sherman on the bed, since you dont want to use a crate, that it would stop. Do you get up to go in the middle of the night, you could always do like some, take him with you and put a pad or newspaper in the bathroom and let him go when you do. Then you can finish your night in peace without worrying about him. I can certainly understand how frustrating it must be for you, but I know he loves you and I give you so much credit for hanging in there!!!!! Once you find the routine that works for you, it will all fall in to place.!!
Laurie


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Mine have slept through the next since they were 11 weeks. Shelby will occasionally have to go during the night if she has eaten something that hasn't agreed with her. She has a sensitive stomach. 

She is also the one that will pee in the house. She can go for weeks at a time with no problem, and then it's like she gets brain freeze and forgets where the pee pads are, or the bells. So keep the faith. It just seems to be harder for some dogs than others.


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## Sherman (Sep 20, 2006)

Wow, thanks for all the advice. Some time last night Sherman did pee (a lot!) on newspapers I deliberately put out for him on a plastic mat right beside a cat box. It isn't possible to put the litter boxes away from Sherman because I have 2 of them and the house is just too small to segregate them. So I guess it's working and I feel better. If he just pees on the newspaper, all I have to do is throw it away and clean the plastic pad. It isn't getting into the rug. So I guess 9 hours is too long for him. He does have access to dry food and water at all times. I'm just not going to withhold water. But I don't think he drinks it at night. Who knows? I have 3 cats; Sherman is more trouble than all of them put together. He's worth it though. (I guess!)
Anyway, thanks for the input. You guys are priceless!
-Carol


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## Sherman (Sep 20, 2006)

Hi Thumperlove, 
Your response made a lot of sense to me since Sherman never had an "accident" when he was at the beach last summer or last week at my sister's house where there weren't any cat boxes. Never thought of it! I wonder what I used to think about before Sherman came to live here. Hmmmm. Thanks again!
Carol


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Carol,
I had an idea as well.Try putting a leash on him and hanging onto it in bed.When he wakes up,it will jolt your arm as he tries to get off the bed and pee. I know this sounds wierd,but I do this with my sheltie during thunder/lightning storms.He is crazy during that time running and barking and herding the storm....waking up everyone in the house! Well,not anymore.I found if I put a leash on him and looped it around my wrist Vinnie lays down and relaxes and the storms do not bother him.I think it's that positive energy thing Cesar talks about on his show.He says the dog can feel your energy through the leash.....I don't know about that--but I know this had helped Vinnie 100%.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Carol, I agree that maybe the litter boxes are the problem. Since you of course cannot get rid of the cats, if you cant beat em, join em!! Maybe he just wants a place to go at night too!!!! If you are ok with the newspaper idea, then go with it, and what Julie suggested might be a good idea. This way you will know what time he feels he needs to go and maybe can work around with timing & get him to sleep thru.

I have to say Carol, that you are such a terrific Mommy to not give up on this beautiful baby!! Sherman is so lucky to have you!! So many people are so quick to give up and give away- you should be proud of yourself!!


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

I think it is your attitude and limits as well .
I do agree with Kara and the scent from the cats and the marking . It is confusing ..
I think you need to stress to him it is not ok .. but give him an OK place just in case ..
I potty the dogs outside but because Cosmo was paper trained in the kitchen as a puppy due to climate coyotes etc - I finally had to give up and put a pee pee pad back in the kitchen .. 
I will have to work harder to get the message across but beelieve me I am happy it is in the kitchen where it is manageable and not on my good carpet the decorator insisted I must have even though I told her it must be doggie friendly .. I did not know I would be starting over with new dogs .. 
The dogs are worth it . WE will get there .. We are making progress but it is slow .. Cosmo is smart but lazy ..


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Sherman said:


> Hi Thumperlove,
> Your response made a lot of sense to me since Sherman never had an "accident" when he was at the beach last summer or last week at my sister's house where there weren't any cat boxes. Never thought of it! I wonder what I used to think about before Sherman came to live here. Hmmmm. Thanks again!
> Carol


Your welcome Carol!

I did grow up in a house FULL of dogs and cats, and I do remember one of our dogs "Booger" (No, I didn't name him! lol) would ALWAYS go to the bathroom around the catboxes. We were convinced that he thought he was part of the 'cat' pack and not the dog pack. I think Sherman might think the same thing, Does he play with the cats and pay much attention to them? Either that, or he thinks....."oh the cats are leaving their scent, so will I...that's what THEY do", in a dog thinking sort of way.

I do not think dogs have housebreaking accidents to be rebellious, they just don't have the capacity to THINK like that, it is most likely some type of confusion or marking.

I'm glad the newspaper by the boxes is working. Overall, it sounds like Sherman is doing VERY well with housebreaking compared to some other havs that still have random accidents at 'random' times, atleast his are very predictable.

We had some friends over a few weeks ago and their older Havs both pooped and marked in my house and I am having a HUGE problem with some regression with Gucci since then. I really do think it her smelling the other dogs in her house  We went out yesterday and bought a "Little Green Steam Machine" and have been working on the carpets. I do think there are some 'marking' spots that I am not aware of from my friends' boys, so I'll just steam clean the WHOLE house, I suppose. :frusty: Joy.

Kara


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Carol,

I remember a few months back you were at your wits end and almost ready to get rid of Sherman. I think he's come a long way since then. I think the wonderful people on this board are on to something with the cat boxes. I hope you can work it out.

I let Gryff out for the last call around 9:00 and he's good until 7:00. He sleeps on the bed and occasionally jumps off and sleeps under the bed. I usually wake up during the night and get on the computer. When he was younger, I had to take him out if I got up during the night or he would pee on the floor. Now he will show up in my office and curl up on the floor and go back to sleep. The best part is when I bring him back to bed with me. He usually sleeps at the foot of the bed, but when I bring him back after being up during the night he will usually cuddle until morning.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Carol, how are you coming along with Sherman??
Laurie


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## Sherman (Sep 20, 2006)

Hi Laurie, 
thanks for asking! He's doing better but I think it'll be much easier to get him out when he needs to go when the weather's better. It's been snowing almost constantly since Dec. 1 here and sometimes he just doesn't want to get wet and cold again, especially at night, like right now. On May 30 Sherman will be 2 years old and his troubles will be behind him. I hope!
Thanks, Carol


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Carol - how are things with Sherman? It's been a few weeks since your last post. I hope he's doing well.


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## Sherman (Sep 20, 2006)

Hi everybody, thanks for asking about my Sherman. I'm counting the days on the calendar (literally). He's up to 13 days without an accident. 14 days ago he pooped during the night on both of my bathmats. Since then he has been confined to the downstairs at night. I don't trust him anymore, but have "given up" in the sense that I've accepted that this is the way he is. I'm dealing with it by limiting his freedom and expanding his potty opportunities. And I don't want to give him away anymore! 
Again, thanks for thinking of us!


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Awww Carol I am so happy to hear that. What you are doing, is exactly the right thing to train him. Make his world smaller, and his potty opportunities larger and he will "get it" It seems to me that repetition is what these guys learn from, and if he was regularly going IN the house, then that is what he learned 13 DAYS is GREAT!!!! I always read that if the Natures Miracle bottle comes out less and less often, then they are finally getting it!!

We have not seen any updated pics of Sherman - can we have some please????


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Great news Carol. Sherman will get it.


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## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

I am glad the hear the good news!!


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Hooray for Sherman! I'm glad things are going better, Carol!


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## nancyf (Nov 6, 2007)

*should I just give up*

We got Bella at 2 /12 months and she slept in her crate two nights next to my side of the bed--only two nights because she didn't sleep all night and my arm was sore from holding it by the crate! After that we put her in our guest bath and put a pad down for her. She used the pad once or twice by the time we got her in the morning but she'd begin to cry between 4 and 5AM.

We tried taking up her water after 7PM and we'd take her out many, many times until her bed time at 10:30. She'd be up crying by 4:30AM. Honestly, we tried everything to get her to sleep longer and to sleep dry. Finally, one night when we were going to bed, we put her on the bed between us. She slept dry and didn't wake up until 7:30 AM (9 hours).

We eventually wanted her to sleep up on our bed but we were waiting for a dry night. She's been with us for a month and we're all getting a good night's sleep.

I'm sure this will go against a professional trainer's opinion but it works for us. 
Nancyf


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Carol,
I'm thrilled to hear that Sherman has his forever home! 
Limiting his access is the perfect thing to do. I'm glad that you can relax and enjoy him for who he is now. I'll bet with you feeling less stress and tension, he'll do better with his house training.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

I have to say that Nancy has something there. I kept my two girls in xpens in the kitchen at night. And when we came down at 6am, there always was "something" on the pads. Now I suspect most of it was done when we got up, pup heard us, and then went potty. But we knew no different, so they pottied in the night for a few months. 
With Logan, when he came home, he slept in bed with us at 9 weeks old from day one & NEVER got up to go in the night. It must be something about being so comfortable and happy in the bed. Now mind you, for a while, hubby carried him to the door in the morning, cause if his feet hit the ground, that was were he would do his morning potty. I think it is worth a try.


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Laurie - I totally agree with not letting their feet touch the floor when you are training for outside potty. I'd take mine directly from the crate to the outside and then put them down. As they got older, then we'd open the crate door and play "run like he$$" to get them outside. If the stopped, I swooped them up quick before they could get into "position".


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Yeah Sherman! I'm so glad to hear that things are working well. Gryff sleeps with us and has almost since the very beginning. He never goes during the night and he's good until 7:30 or whatever time I wake up. Actually, if I get up around 6:00 and get on the computer, he will come in with me, curl up and go back to sleep until I wake him up to go potty.


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

Good boy Sherman!
I'm so glad to hear you're making progress and feeling good about your choices. 
I too agree with the "don't let the feet hit the ground". It does seem to make a difference.
Our Maltese will wait all night, then run down and go in front of the door if he can't run straight out. He will also hold it during the day, but as soon as we walk in, will pee on his pee pad. 

Whatever you've been doing for the past 13 days is working! Keep up the good work!

Beverlyeace:


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Smarty has been house broken since she was a little puppy. One rainy night she just would not go outside so I put down papers in our bathroom and she peed on it that night. I was not as unhappy as you because she would always wake me up very early to go out and when we travel I do not like walking her at night. So at night pee pads or papers are put down, I get to sleep later and when we travel she does not get upset about not going out.

I think part of your problem is the free feed and water. Our papers are never wet if she eats early.


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang (May 21, 2007)

Hurray Sherman! I hope he continues to improve - it sure sounds like he's well on his way :whoo:!

I'm so glad you're determined to keep him Carol! These little guys are worth every bit of effort.

Nancy - We did the same thing with Pepper. His first night here my DH put him in bed with us. He slept the whole night through and only had an accident if we set him on the floor before taking him outside. He was about 9-months old when we got him...so a bit older than Bella. This also worked with my golden, Vinnie, who was 9-weeks old when we got him. He is the ONLY dog we've had that NEVER had an accident in the house, unless he was sick.

Wanda


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Nancy, that's great for you that the problem is resolved! I do think Havs are such intent 'pack' dogs that they DO need to be with their 'pack'. Gucci will always jump at the chance to lay down with me, either on bed or the couch.

Even if I lay on the couch she hurries up with me and settles in, she's a great snugglebug 

I'm also glad to hear Sherman is doing better. Will he ever be perfect? Who knows, but I think he's catching on more and more each day.

Kara


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Kodi hasn't had an accident since he's 7 mos old. Ever since I had my surgery, he has had some setbacks. Usually we get up in the a.m. and they go right outside. The past week or so, he will not go out unless I physically put him outside. Her has also been peeing on the floor right next to the pad. I think that might be a real accident, like pointing in the wrong direction. The past few days he is going outside again.

Shelby is still a work in progress. I would say she is 99% housebroken. She will be fine for weeks at a time and then pee on the floor.


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