# Respect



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

here is a super article on "respect" as it relates to dog training. No wonder it also was enjoyed by Jean Donaldson. She has been telling us for years that terms like respect and guilt are not qualities that dogs are capable of., and that they are anthropomorphic in nature. For those of you not familiar with the acronym +P trainer, it is simply referring to positive punishment type trainer (the "bad" type of punishment. ) eg. shock collar . http://dogsandethics.blogspot.ca/2013/12/exploring-problem-with-cookie-training.html


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I see her talking about "respect",and can certainly see (and agree) with her point of view.

She says, "They’re not capable of processing abstract concepts like respect, guilt, shame or responsibility. " I think that's different than trust, however. I think dogs (and other animals) can and do learn to trust their handler, if handled kindly and predictably. (I think animals care a LOT about predictability in their handlers)

I think where a lot of +R trainers get stuck is not going BEYOND the "cookie as reward" mentality, and don't work hard enough to develop the dog's perceived value in the RELATIONSHIP between the dog and handler. I know that the more I develop "personal play" with Kodi (this is relational, between just him and me, no toy or food in the picture) the more reliable he is in a competition setting, where there IS no possibility of food as a reward. (or, if I were so inclined, of punishment, either! )

I want Kodi's whole outlook to be that THE most rewarding thing he can do is to "play" with this fun, exciting partner. (hopefully, ME! ) Since I WON'T use +P, even in training, that's the ONLY way I can keep him paying attention to me and heel around 4 dog bowls full of food, the way I must in an offset figure 8. It's also the only reason he could possibly have to leave off chasing that chipmunk in the woods and return to me when I call, tail wagging.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> here is a super article on "respect" as it relates to dog training. No wonder it also was enjoyed by Jean Donaldson. She has been telling us for years that terms like respect and guilt are not qualities that dogs are capable of., and that they are anthropomorphic in nature. For those of you not familiar with the acronym +P trainer, it is simply referring to positive punishment type trainer (the "bad" type of punishment. ) eg. shock collar . http://dogsandethics.blogspot.ca/2013/12/exploring-problem-with-cookie-training.html


So if dogs are not capable of respect and guilt, which of the following if any, are they capable of and what's the distinguishing factor:

1. Pride
2. Jealousy/Envy
3. Depression
4. Frustration
5. Appreciation
6. Trust
7. Happy/Joyful
8. Fearful
9. Angry/Mad
10. Sad


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

krandall said:


> I see her talking about "respect",and can certainly see (and agree) with her point of view.
> 
> She says, "They're not capable of processing abstract concepts like respect, guilt, shame or responsibility. " I think that's different than trust, however. I think dogs (and other animals) can and do learn to trust their handler, if handled kindly and predictably. (I think animals care a LOT about predictability in their handlers)
> 
> ...


yeah Karen, I mistakenly used trust originally , I meant respect. yeah I believe in using trust , as a matter of fact , I wrote an article on Trust in Havanese Breed Magazine lately and it will be in the next issue.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Excellent article, Dave, and points made, Karen. I've been reading a book I thoroughly recommend called "The Truth about Wolves and Dogs" by Toni Shelbourne (i've mentioned it before on this forum somewhere, I think); it's fascinating about wolf hierarchy and the whole 'pack' misconception re wolves; there is no such thing as an 'alpha' wolf. There IS what is known as an 'omega' wolf, one designated by the pack as the scapegoat and appeaser. But to use a word like 'scapegoat' imbues the role with all sorts of human values. The omega wolf is not unhappy in its role, rather it works hard at it and does it to the best of its ability. There is a breeding pair, rather than any 'alpha' dominant. The omega will work to keep harmony in the pack. The breeding pair are the leaders, but do NOT go first in any order when moving from a to b; they do NOT eat first. They do not elicit any equivalent of 'respect', they make sure the pack does well, hunts cleverly and is well led, and thereby gain their status. The omega wolf will break up fights, appease, initiate play as an appeaser, and generally diffuse any potentially damaging situation. It may have once been part of a breeding pair, or may become part of a breeding pair in time. The whole idea of pack dominance, based upon a vague and unscientific notion of how wolves interact, is misplaced. The author is SO good, too, on the relationship between humans and both dogs and wolves - she herself has worked extensively with wolves. And dogs.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> So if dogs are not capable of respect and guilt, which of the following if any, are they capable of and what's the distinguishing factor:
> 
> 1. Pride
> 2. Jealousy/Envy
> ...


2 3 4 6 7 89 10 complex topic


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> 2 3 4 6 7 89 10 complex topic


I'm going to ask you to do better than "complex topic" as it relates to the following comparisons:

Pride/Guilt/Respect - Can't Feel

vs.

Trust/Jealousy/Envy - Can Feel

Most specifically, I'm interested in the distinctions between:

1. Trust & Respect 
2. Pride & Jealousy

Those emotions are correlative in nature.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> I'm going to ask you to do better than "complex topic" as it relates to the following comparisons:
> 
> Pride/Guilt/Respect - Can't Feel
> 
> ...


hey John you can subscribe to Havanese Breed Magazine and read my ariticle on Trust lol. No seriously, it comes down to reading about dogs and their ability or lack of , to reason. Spend some time thinking about these things and then ask your self if it's a leap. I"ll try to come back with some good articles.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

here's a good book. Inside of a Dog: What Dogs See, Smell, and Know: Alexandra Horowitz: 9781416583400: Amazon.com: Books


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Lalla said:


> Excellent article, Dave, and points made, Karen. I've been reading a book I thoroughly recommend called "The Truth about Wolves and Dogs" by Toni Shelbourne (i've mentioned it before on this forum somewhere, I think); it's fascinating about wolf hierarchy and the whole 'pack' misconception re wolves; there is no such thing as an 'alpha' wolf. There IS what is known as an 'omega' wolf, one designated by the pack as the scapegoat and appeaser. But to use a word like 'scapegoat' imbues the role with all sorts of human values. The omega wolf is not unhappy in its role, rather it works hard at it and does it to the best of its ability. There is a breeding pair, rather than any 'alpha' dominant. The omega will work to keep harmony in the pack. The breeding pair are the leaders, but do NOT go first in any order when moving from a to b; they do NOT eat first. They do not elicit any equivalent of 'respect', they make sure the pack does well, hunts cleverly and is well led, and thereby gain their status. The omega wolf will break up fights, appease, initiate play as an appeaser, and generally diffuse any potentially damaging situation. It may have once been part of a breeding pair, or may become part of a breeding pair in time. The whole idea of pack dominance, based upon a vague and unscientific notion of how wolves interact, is misplaced. The author is SO good, too, on the relationship between humans and both dogs and wolves - she herself has worked extensively with wolves. And dogs.


yep even David Mech apologized for being misleading.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> yep even David Mech apologized for being misleading.


Yes, he did; she quotes him. There are some very good wolf interaction photos in the book, too.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

here's an article from one of our IAABC members that I have permission to cross post on the topic of guilt. Much the same idea .

While I think it's pretty clear from the research as well as dog 
lovers' experiences that dogs have associations that are remembered, to say that 
dogs have guilt is quite another thing. I agree with the thrust of an 
earlier post that in order for a dog to feel guilt, it would have to be able to 
internalize HUMAN beliefs about right and wrong and have a rather 
sophisticated sense of morality. While others are showing that dogs do 
have a moral code with each other and from a doggie point of view, I've not 
seen anything that suggests that they can learn to adopt OUR moral codes 
of right and wrong. They do build these associations with all kinds of 
minute environmental cues, including our facial expressions, tone of voice, and 
similar environments to prior situations where they were in trouble (as 
noted in other posts). I might add that the "wait until your father gets 
home" approach to discipline does not work well with children either, unless 
you are trying to build anxiety problems in your child. Then it's all about 
the anxiety and avoiding punishment and not about learning to stop the bad 
behavior anyway. (Avoidance of punishment is one of the lowest levels of 
moral development in humans and does not indicate true learning). I think 
the same is true of dogs, but they have less capacity to hold such 
behaviors in their heads until punishment is doled out. Dogs have memories and 
anticipation, but mostly they live in the present (one of their great 
beauties!).

We really don't need to punish dogs for these things - we either need to 
manage the situation (don't leave the steak on the edge of the counter) or 
teach an effective leave-it, even in the absence of human supervision. The 
focus really needs to be on the alternative behavior we want under certain 
circumstances.

As for the video clip of Denver the "guilty dog" - this has been under 
discussion in several online dog training/behaviorist groups, and I think most 
will agree that those dogs are throwing off stress signals like crazy. The 
"grin" is actually a submissive gesture that shows high levels of anxiety 
- I worked in rescue with a dog who did exactly this when he first came to 
rescue. He was inaccurately named "Happy" for his grin, but he was 
extremely fearful of human approach. A few weeks in rescue, and he looked like a 
different dog - truly happy but without his fearful grin anymore. I 
actually downloaded the guilty dog Youtube clip to show to my next 
animal-assisted play therapy training group - for use as an exercise in recognizing 
stress signals! (This video has gone viral because these are the behaviors 
that most people think are guilt!) I'm still not sure why it's "cute" or 
"funny" to make dogs feel this way deliberately. I can certainly cause these 
reactions in my dogs with my tone of voice when they have done absolutely 
nothing wrong, but I don't because I don't want to stress my dogs. We have 
lots more education of the public to do!!

Risë

"Against the assault of laughter nothing can stand." --Mark Twain
"Life is too important to be taken seriously." --Oscar Wilde
Risë VanFleet, Ph.D., President
Family Enhancement & Play Therapy Center, Inc.
PO Box 613, Boiling Springs, PA 17007 USA
717-249-4707
_www.play-therapy.com_ (http://www.play-therapy.com/)

Director
Playful Pooch Program
Canine Assisted Play Therapy
_www.playfulpooch.org_ (http://www.playfulpooch.org/)

Licensed Psychologist (PA)
Registered Play Therapist-Supervisor (APT)
Certified Filial Therapist-Instructor (NIRE)
Canine Good Citizen Evaluator (AKC-CGC)
Certified Dog Behavior Consultant (IAABC)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> So if dogs are not capable of respect and guilt, which of the following if any, are they capable of and what's the distinguishing factor:
> 
> 1. Pride
> 2. Jealousy/Envy
> ...


I would say yes to:

4. Frustration
6. Trust
7. Happy/Joyful
8. Fearful
10. Sad

I would definitely add "confused" to this list&#8230; I think a lot of what looks like non-compliance is confusion about what the handler really wants.

Not sure depression is very different from sad, except in duration.

I would say jealous/envy are words we assign to resource guarding behavior&#8230; not sure if it's the same thing we experience.

I'd be VERY surprised if they understand or FEEL intrinsic "pride". They know we are happy with their behavior, and, if they have a good relationship with us, making us happy, often makes them over-the-moon happy. But I don't think it's the same as internal pride, which a person must believe in without external reinforcement.

I think "appreciation" is too broad a term. Do they "appreciate" getting their dinner? Sure! Do they "appreciate", in a general way, all that we do for them? I kind of doubt it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> I'm going to ask you to do better than "complex topic" as it relates to the following comparisons:
> 
> Pride/Guilt/Respect - Can't Feel
> 
> ...


I've got some thoughts on this, but I'm on the way out of the house now&#8230; More later!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

here's a couple on jealousy http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081209091945.htm

Dr. Stanley Coren http://www.moderndogmagazine.com/articles/jealousy/19629

3. Dr. Patricia McConnell http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/tag/jealousy-in-dogs

here's a snippet from Dr. Dodman at Tufts on depression in dogs . "The identification of depression in dogs began in the early 1980s when Nicholas Dodman, Tufts University's professor section head and program director for the animal behaviour department of clinical sciences, was looking at the symptoms dogs were having.

Because the symptomology in dogs and humans is similar, Dodman started treating the dog with Prozac and the dog showed improvement"


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> Spend some time thinking about these things and then ask your self if it's a leap.


I thought about it before I posted, which is why I purposely included both Instinctual Emotions (Fear, anxiety, Joy) and Cognitive Emotions (Guilt, Respect, Trust) on the list.



davetgabby said:


> it comes down to reading about dogs and their ability or lack of , to reason


I agree. I haven't read the articles yet, but I'm looking forward to reading how a dog can learn/reason the cognitive emotion of trust, but not learn/reason the cognitive emotion of respect.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> hey John you can subscribe to Havanese Breed Magazine and read my ariticle on Trust lol. No seriously, it comes down to reading about dogs and their ability or lack of , to reason. Spend some time thinking about these things and then ask your self if it's a leap. I"ll try to come back with some good articles.


I have read all the articles in the links, but have not read the book. I have not yet subscribed to the magazine and therefore have not yet read your article.

I mentioned above the segregation of emotions into two categories, Instinctual and Cognitive. The modern dog magazine discusses these same categories as Primary and Secondary:


moderndogmagazine said:


> Scientists tend to separate emotions into two categories: primary and secondary. Primary emotions, such as fear, anger, disgust, joy, and surprise, are considered to be universal. Secondary emotions-guilt, shame, jealousy, and envy-are thought to require more complex cognitive processes.- See more at: http://moderndogmagazine.com/articles/jealousy/19629#sthash.sIdhGNDn.dpuf


I find it interesting that there are articles that state dogs are not capable of reasoning or processing the Secondary/Cognitive emotions of Respect and Guilt, while other articles state that dogs are capable of processing the Secondary/Cognitive emotions of Trust and Envy. The cognitive similarities between Trust v Respect and Guilt v Envy are as closely related as any Cognitive/Secondary emotions.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> I thought about it before I posted, which is why I purposely included both Instinctual Emotions (Fear, anxiety, Joy) and Cognitive Emotions (Guilt, Respect, Trust) on the list.
> 
> I agree. I haven't read the articles yet, but I'm looking forward to reading how a dog can learn/reason the cognitive emotion of trust, but not learn/reason the cognitive emotion of respect.


I'm not sure they DON'T respect us in a way&#8230; the way a child respects a good, trusted teacher or parent. I think the point that the author was trying to make in the original article Dave posted is that you have to be careful&#8230; "avoidance of punishment" can LOOK a lot like respect on the surface, but it's not the same thing. You see that in some old-school situations with people too&#8230; Often, actually, even among school children. In my parent's day, kids often behaved in school, but it was because they were afraid of the consequences of misbehavior, NOT because they had been taught, in a positive way, to choose the right behavior. The problem is, although these types of "behaving" can look look the same on the surface, one leads to anxiety, and less willingness to experiment and try new things, for fear of doing wrong and getting punished. We WANT our dogs (and children) to try new things, even if it means they make mistakes at times. Mistakes are not failure and don't deserve punishment.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

krandall said:


> I think the point that the author was trying to make in the original article Dave posted is that you have to be careful&#8230; "avoidance of punishment" can LOOK a lot like respect on the surface, but it's not the same thing. You see that in some old-school situations with people too&#8230; Often, actually, even among school children. In my parent's day, kids often behaved in school, but it was because they were afraid of the consequences of misbehavior, NOT because they had been taught, in a positive way, to choose the right behavior. The problem is, although these types of "behaving" can look look the same on the surface, one leads to anxiety, and less willingness to experiment and try new things, for fear of doing wrong and getting punished. We WANT our dogs (and children) to try new things, even if it means they make mistakes at times. Mistakes are not failure and don't deserve punishment.


I completely agree with you, and was going to post the same, but wanted someone else to bring it up first because I wanted someone to initially agree with the premise before taking my point one step further.

I believe the articles that suggest a dog is not capable of respect are influenced by the fact that +P trainers rely on the erroneous concept "Respect" to rationalize or justify their antiquated training methods. I believe the authors of those articles have a vested interest in disproving the concept of "Respect" as a way to further demonstrate and discredit +P training methods, when it's not needed. +P training in no way shape or form relies upon "Respect", it relies upon fear, intimidation and dominance.

In other words, whether or not a dog can learn to "Respect" its Master or owner is not relevant to the discussion of +P training methods because its long since been proven that +P training methods have adverse consequences and rely on fear not respect, while +R training methods can accomplish better results without the negative consequenses.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> I have read all the articles in the links, but have not read the book. I have not yet subscribed to the magazine and therefore have not yet read your article.
> 
> I mentioned above the segregation of emotions into two categories, Instinctual and Cognitive. The modern dog magazine discusses these same categories as Primary and Secondary:
> 
> I find it interesting that there are articles that state dogs are not capable of reasoning or processing the Secondary/Cognitive emotions of Respect and Guilt, while other articles state that dogs are capable of processing the Secondary/Cognitive emotions of Trust and Envy. The cognitive similarities between Trust v Respect and Guilt v Envy are as closely related as any Cognitive/Secondary emotions.


Personally, I think dogs ARE capable of reasoning. The problem is that they don't reason NEARLY as well as people do, and when owners see little signs of them thinking things through, they leap to thinking that the dog's reasoning abilities are MUCH greater than they really are.

But when you see a dog doing pure clicker training, really THINKING to figure out what they need to do to get that click (and therefore that cookie!) I don't know how you can think they AREN'T reasoning at some level.

As far as trust is concerned, it may be semantics, but I don't see how ANYONE can think that dogs (and other animals) can't develop and feel trust. Especially if you define "trust" as learning that they can depend upon a certain person to care for them and meet their needs.

Envy&#8230; again, I think it's a matter of definition. Maybe we should call it wanting to control a resource, but even with humans, isn't that what envy is? I know that there have been a couple of instances when Kodi has blown me off in an agility lesson for no clear reason. Now, some of this was because he had had some bad experiences in the past that we were working though. (he got attacked by a cattle dog at a trial&#8230; didn't harm him physically, but scared the bejeezus out of him) But, after over a year of careful work to encourage his enthusiasm and calm his worries, every once in a while, without a clear reason, he would just stop on course and wander off. No amount of jollying could get him to re-engage.

One day, when he did this, my instructor had me gently pick him up and put him in his crate, facing the ring, where he could see everything that was going on. Then she got out her miniature poodle, and had me run a course with him, making sure to make a HUGE fuss over him, and making sure that Kodi SAW me feeding HIS training treats to the other dog. I'll tell you, this REALLY got Kodi's attention. Someone ELSE? Working with HIS person? Eating HIS treats?!?!? No more problems with him running courses that day. We have done this exactly twice, about 3 weeks apart. He has never needed it again.

Whether you call this "envy", "jealousy" or unwillingness to share resources with another dog&#8230; It looks and feels pretty much the same to me. What else would we call this?


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

krandall said:


> Personally, I think dogs ARE capable of reasoning. The problem is that they don't reason NEARLY as well as people do, and when owners see little signs of them thinking things through, they leap to thinking that the dog's reasoning abilities are MUCH greater than they really are.
> 
> But when you see a dog doing pure clicker training, really THINKING to figure out what they need to do to get that click (and therefore that cookie!) I don't know how you can think they AREN'T reasoning at some level.
> 
> ...


I agree. I think dogs do feel doggy equivalents of Trust & Jealousy. My main point is that if they feel and/or can reason the doggy equivalent of Trust & Jealousy, then they should also be able to feel and/or reason the doggy equivalent of Respect & Guilt. If there are studies to suggest dogs can feel and/or reason Trust & Jealousy and studies that suggest dogs can NOT feel and/or reason Respect & Guilt, then I submit the scientific approaches to the contradictory studies need to be examined and made uniform. Too many of the article I've read rely upon observation, anecdote, correlation and argument as support for their conclusion. Few if any of the articles I've read discuss blind or double studies.

I feel the need to clearly articulate that I have not read Dave's article and am not calling into question any of his writing or analysis.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> I agree. I think dogs do feel doggy equivalents of Trust & Jealousy. My main point is that if they feel and/or can reason the doggy equivalent of Trust & Jealousy, then they should also be able to feel and/or reason the doggy equivalent of Respect & Guilt. If there are studies to suggest dogs can feel and/or reason Trust & Jealousy and studies that suggest dogs can NOT feel and/or reason Respect & Guilt, then I submit the scientific approaches to the contradictory studies need to be examined and made uniform. Too many of the article I've read rely upon observation, anecdote, correlation and argument as support for their conclusion. Few if any of the articles I've read discuss blind or double studies.
> 
> I feel the need to clearly articulate that I have not read Dave's article and am not calling into question any of his writing or analysis.


Well, I have to think a bit more about the respect thing. As I think I said before, in the article Dave originally posted, they were talking about people confusing punishment avoidance as being "respect". When, clearly, it is not.

As far as guilt is concerned, for a dog to feel "guilty", they must first believe that what they are doing is wrong. What I see is that dogs learn, quite quickly, that certain behaviors get them in trouble with their owners, and that when their owners act a certain way, bad things happen. So they throw a lot of appeasement behaviors that people INTERPRET as guilt.

But the dogs don't, innately, understand that (for instance) eating poop is "wrong"&#8230; It's a perfectly natural thing for them to do, and if not stopped by their owner, many of them would happily and repeatedly do it without the least qualm of guilt. What they DO learn is that eating poop makes their owner upset. That doesn't USUALLY stop them, (because they really don't see anything wrong or unnatural about it!) but it DOES make them throw all sorts of appeasement behaviors when they are "caught", to try to calm their owner down. The owner then often views this as the dog "acting guilty".

Kodi has once or twice, as a full adult, after careful and thorough house training, had accidents in the house. One happened recently, when I left my son in charge, who promptly retreated to his room, and forgot about Kodi for the day. I came home to a poop right inside the door where Kodi always asks to go out. I am SURE that he barked to go out, probably repeatedly, was ignored by my son, so eventually resorted to relieving himself as close to "outside" as he could get. When I got home, he happily greeted me at the door, right beside the pile of poop. Absolutely NO signs of "guilt" or appeasement behavior. BUT&#8230; he has NEVER been punished for an accident. IMO, mistakes in potty training are human mistakes. We potty trained him by controlling his environment, setting him up for success, praising going in the right spot and ignoring mistakes. So, even though he "pooped in the house", he had no expectation of negative consequences, so showed none of the signs people associate with "guilt" in dogs.

As a side bar: Yes, he has a litter box, but mostly uses it to pee. He needs to either be in a small enclosed space like my office to poop in the litter box, or be given a LOT of encouragement, if there is a reason we are home, and don't want to let him out. Under normal circumstances, he will usually "hold it" for a LONG time rather than poop in the litter box. I suspect, in this instance, that he DID hold it for a long time, and because he was waiting by the door for help, he was too far away from the litter box when the call of nature became to urgent too ignore any longer.


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## RitaandRiley (Feb 27, 2012)

davetgabby said:


> here's a good book. Inside of a Dog: What Dogs See, Smell, and Know: Alexandra Horowitz: 9781416583400: Amazon.com: Books


I liked this book very much, actually better than The Other End of the 
Leash!


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

krandall said:


> As far as guilt is concerned, for a dog to feel "guilty", they must first believe that what they are doing is wrong. What I see is that dogs learn, quite quickly, that certain behaviors get them in trouble with their owners, and that when their owners act a certain way, bad things happen. So they throw a lot of appeasement behaviors that people INTERPRET as guilt.
> 
> But the dogs don't, innately, understand that (for instance) eating poop is "wrong"&#8230; It's a perfectly natural thing for them to do, and if not stopped by their owner, many of them would happily and repeatedly do it without the least qualm of guilt. What they DO learn is that eating poop makes their owner upset. That doesn't USUALLY stop them, (because they really don't see anything wrong or unnatural about it!) but it DOES make them throw all sorts of appeasement behaviors when they are "caught", to try to calm their owner down. The owner then often views this as the dog "acting guilty".
> 
> Kodi has once or twice, as a full adult, after careful and thorough house training, had accidents in the house. One happened recently, when I left my son in charge, who promptly retreated to his room, and forgot about Kodi for the day. I came home to a poop right inside the door where Kodi always asks to go out. I am SURE that he barked to go out, probably repeatedly, was ignored by my son, so eventually resorted to relieving himself as close to "outside" as he could get. When I got home, he happily greeted me at the door, right beside the pile of poop. Absolutely NO signs of "guilt" or appeasement behavior. BUT&#8230; he has NEVER been punished for an accident. IMO, mistakes in potty training are human mistakes. We potty trained him by controlling his environment, setting him up for success, praising going in the right spot and ignoring mistakes. So, even though he "pooped in the house", he had no expectation of negative consequences, so showed none of the signs people associate with "guilt" in dogs.


I understand your reply, but do not necessarily believe guilt need be associated with "Right" or "Wrong" activities, and therefore don't necessarily believe guilt needs to be associated with a "Moral Sense" for either dogs OR HUMANS. I say "not necessarily" because clearly some guilt is caused by actions we know to be morally wrong. I do NOT believe dogs are capable of processing or reasoning this type of guilt. I will call it "Moral Guilt".

However, guilt can also be felt and processed when a loved one is disappointed in our actions. To clearly articulate the type of guilt to which I'm referring, I'm going to call it:

"Mother's Guilt".

I hope all the mothers of the forum and my own mother will forgive me. I would also like to clearly state that both my mother and mother-in-law do NOT participate in "Mother's Guilt".

Dogs can certainly feel our energy and sense our emotions:


dogbreedinfo said:


> Understanding a Dog's Senses
> 
> A big part of understanding your dog is understanding its senses and accepting that they are indeed different than humans. Both humans and dogs have the same three senses: sight, hearing and smelling, however while most humans communicate by hearing, seeing, and then smelling, dogs primarily communicate by smelling, seeing and lastly hearing. Dogs also have a universal sense which humans do not have, where they can feel the energy (emotions) of the other beings around them..


Many have posted on this forum that dogs, particularly Havanese, want to please us (you may have even been one of them). It's why +R based training is so effective. Anecdotely (as opposed to scientifically), dogs seem to want to earn our approval and want to perform tasks which make us happy, and if they can earn a treat or praise for doing it, so much the better. Clearly dogs can learn to associate their behavior to our positive energy, and it seems to bring them joy.

If that is true, then the converse is probably also true. If dogs can feel our positive energy, then they can feel our negative energy. If dogs can associate their behavior to our approval, then the can associate their behavior with our "disapproval".

Please note that when I say "disapproval" I'm not talking about yelling, abuse or any overt positive punishments. I'm talking about our internal feelings, feelings we may not necessarily be able to control.

I submit that a dogs "appeasement", "sadness" or "anxiety" that is caused by associating it's behavior with our negative energy is "Mother's Guilt" as opposed to "Moral Guilt".


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

Here are some interesting articles.

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/news/articles/2013/02/15/doggone-it-your-dog-has-you-pegged

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201111/do-dogs-feel-jealousy-and-envy

The study of secondary emotions in dogs is obviously an evolving study. A few years ago, scientists didn't believe animials other than primates were capable of secondary emotions. Current studies suggest animals and dogs are capable of secondary emotions, certainly jealousy/envy and a few others.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> I understand your reply, but do not necessarily believe guilt need be associated with "Right" or "Wrong" activities, and therefore don't necessarily believe guilt needs to be associated with a "Moral Sense" for either dogs OR HUMANS. I say "not necessarily" because clearly some guilt is caused by actions we know to be morally wrong. I do NOT believe dogs are capable of processing or reasoning this type of guilt. I will call it "Moral Guilt".
> 
> However, guilt can also be felt and processed when a loved one is disappointed in our actions. To clearly articulate the type of guilt to which I'm referring, I'm going to call it:
> 
> ...


OK, first, I have never read ANYTHING that sayas that dogs have any mysterious extra sense. They ARE incredibly good at reading body language, and becuase their sense of smell is so good, it is ENTIRELY possible that they can smell stress hormones and the like that we give off when we feel strong emotions. That, however, is far from having some extra sense that can "feel energy".

As afr as the rest of what you wrote... For me, that's an awfully loose interpretation of guilt. There is no question that dogs can tell when we are upset, and that this can be quite upsetting for them too. But to call that feeling guilty? Doesn't really work for me. I've seen Kodi get upset when I've been upset about something going on at work. But that can't be guilt... It is not in any way related to anything he has done.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> Here are some interesting articles.
> 
> http://health.usnews.com/health-news/news/articles/2013/02/15/doggone-it-your-dog-has-you-pegged
> 
> ...


Both are interesting articles, but both are addressing jealousy, not guilt. I've already said that I don't see how anyone can think that dogs don't experience jealousy... At least if that is defined as wanting a resource that another dog is getting and they aren't.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

After reading your replies, I must clarify my two posts as I realize my articulation must have been poor.

1. I did not mean to imply that you've previously posted dogs have an extra sense. I meant to state that many on this forum have posted that dogs, particularly Havanese, appear to be "People Pleasers". You may or may not have posted similar sentiments in the past.

2. I also did not mean to imply that guilt is when a dog senses our emotions and acts accordingly. I meant to state that since dogs learn to associate their behavior with our approval, then dogs can learn to associate their behavior with our disapproval, and act accordingly. That, by some pyschological definitions, is guilt. Not the "Moral Guilty" of "right and "wrong", but the type of guilt we all feel when we know our actions have disappointed a love one, regardless of whether or not our actions were "right" or "wrong".



Psychology Glossary said:


> In psychology, the term Guilt refers to an emotion where an individual feels responsible for some action or inaction that is perceived as having negative results. The feeling of guilt, whether justified or not, can lead to many negative psychological symptoms.
> 
> Read more: http://www.alleydog.com/glossary/definition.php?term=Guilt#ixzz2qZhSBnMb


3. Although the two articles do not discuss Guilt, they are related to the discussion because the first article clearly demonstrates that a dog understands our wishes and/or instructions, and will alter his/her actions accordingly. The dog is more likely to disobey our instructions if he/she does not think we can see it. The second article clearly demonstrates that dogs can feel the secondary or cognitive emotion of Jealousy. The evolving understanding of dog emotions is that studies suggest dogs feel some secondary or cognitive emotions, such as jealousy. Previously, secondary or cognitive emotions were thought to be beyond a dogs reasoning level. Clearly, some secondary or cognitive emotions are not beyond a dogs reasoning level. Guilt is a secondary emotions.

To boil down my points in a step by step basis:

1. Dogs can feel some secondary or cognitive emotions.
2. Guilt is a secondary or coginitve emotion.
3. Dogs can associate their behavior with our approval and disapproval.
4. Humans can express disapproval either overtly or unintentionally simply by how they (humans) are feeling.
5. Dogs in some way can sense our energy, mood or feelings.
6. Our energy, mood or feelings affect our dogs energy, mood or feelings.
7. 3+4+5+6 = Guilt


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Goodness I have so enjoyed keeping out of this one! Married to an ethologist as I am, I'm too wary of there being too much literature out there about which I have too facile an understanding to feel able to contribute, though have enjoyed reading all your posts, everyone, and the articles.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> To boil down my points in a step by step basis:
> 
> 1. Dogs can feel some secondary or cognitive emotions.
> 2. Guilt is a secondary or coginitve emotion.
> ...


A Human Example:

My mother asks me to go to my Great Aunt's 90th birthday party. I haven't seen my Great Aunt in over 35 years (I'm 40), and don't ever remember meeting her. I choose not to go. The next day, I go to my mother's house for dinner.

3. I know my actions affected my mothers mood.
4. My mother is sad.
5. I can sense my mother's saddness.
6. I become sad because of my mother's mood.
7. I obviously feel guilty even though I did nothing wrong.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> After reading your replies, I must clarify my two posts as I realize my articulation must have been poor.
> 
> 1. I did not mean to imply that you've previously posted dogs have an extra sense. I meant to state that many on this forum have posted that dogs, particularly Havanese, appear to be "People Pleasers". You may or may not have posted similar sentiments in the past.


I didn't think you were referring to me (about the extra sense). But you quoted this:

"Dogs also have a universal sense which humans do not have, where they can feel the energy (emotions) of the other beings around them.."

This, I think, is hogwash. We have NO scientific evidence that dogs have any such sense. They are VERY good at reading body language, and can certainly smell hormones&#8230; likely including stress hormones, like cortisol. This is NOT the same as some mysterious "extra" sense. They are just very good at what they do.

And yes, I DO believe that dogs in general, and Havanese in particular, are "people pleasers". They value being with us, and we, therefore, innately become a "resource".



Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> To boil down my points in a step by step basis:
> 
> 1. Dogs can feel some secondary or cognitive emotions.
> 2. Guilt is a secondary or coginitve emotion.
> ...


I'm with you down to 6. I think 7 is a big leap. I also think it is a dangerous leap, because it leads to the nonsense like "dog shaming" on the internet, where we see INCREDIBLY stressed out dogs throwing all sorts of calming behaviors.

The fact is that MOST dogs (and ALL the cats I've ever known) can mostly be taught to follow the rules when you are present. The number of dogs who will leave a roast beef alone when it is left within reach and the humans are not present is vanishingly small. I personally think that most, if not all of these animals have simply learned, "The rule is that I don't touch human food when the human is present." I DON'T think, unless they have been punished for doing (whatever) when the human comes home, that they even CONSIDER that it might be "wrong" to eat the roast beef when no one is there. So there is no guilt involved. What people see as "guilt" is a direct reflection of the human's actions upon returning to find the empty roast pan on the floor.

IMO, the fault there IS with the humans for not managing the environment better.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

Would it be accurate to sum up our agreements and disagreements to the following:

Agree:

1. Dogs can feel some secondary or cognitive emotions.
2. Guilt is a secondary or coginitve emotion.
3. Dogs can associate their behavior with our approval and disapproval.
4. Humans can express disapproval either overtly or unintentionally simply by how they (humans) are feeling.
5. Dogs in some way can sense our energy, mood or feelings.
6. Our energy, mood or feelings affect our dogs energy, mood or feelings.


Disagree:

1. The concept of "Right" and "Wrong" is a necessary component of Guilt. I don't think it is, but you do.

2. Feeling sad, bad or down because a loved one is feeling sad, bad or down because of something we did is a form of Guilt. I think it is, but you don't.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> Would it be accurate to sum up our agreements and disagreements to the following:
> 
> Agree:
> 
> ...


Yes on #1.

On the second one, I think it's more complex than that. Kodi DEFINITELY doesn't like to make a wrong decision in training, and CERTAINLY knows, from my response, even if I try to hide it, when things haven't gone right. This has bitten me in the butt a number of times, when I've been frustrated with MYSELF in agility, and he shuts down, sensing that somethings wrong. (even though it WASN'T his fault&#8230; maybe something like me forgetting the course) I'll post a video of us working an exercise where he makes a couple of mistakes. You will see how VERY mild my response is, and how he starts barking out of frustration, just because he knows he didn't get it right. He does not bark if he's doing it exactly right.

HOWEVER, I do NOT think that a dog can associate a person's unhappiness, anger, disappointment, whatever, with an act that they did an hour before. (or even 5 minutes before&#8230; probably not ONE minute before) The period you have to either reward or punish (if you believe in doing that) a behavior is less than 3 seconds. Even that is pushing it. Any longer, and the dog (or horse, the other species I've spent lots of time training) has no idea what the reward or punishment is for. In fact, they are likely to attach the meaning to the last thing that happened.

So, for instance, if they learn that every time you enter a room and there is poop there, you are angry, they will start to throw calming signals (people often read as "guilty behavior") if there is poop in the room, regardless of whether THEY were responsible for it. (they may even start to throw these appeasement signals any time you enter the room, period!) They also do not understand that it is because they WENT poop. They only understand:

poop in the room + human entering = bad news.

In my mind, this is NOT "guilt", but a learned behavior in response to environmental stimulus.

And that's why, unless you catch a puppy IN THE ACT of eliminating in the wrong place, ANY sort of punishment/correction/what ever you want to call it, is not only not useful, but can EASILY be counterproductive.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

OK, in this video, the WORST "correction" I make is to say "oops!" or "you can do better!" in a light, friendly, tone. (with LOTS of rewards, both food and verbal when he gets it right) But you can see that Kodi just HATES being wrong. If I let his frustration get too high, he completely shuts down and just leaves off working, usually sniffing the floor. Not guilt, though, IMO.


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> Would it be accurate to sum up our agreements and disagreements to the following:
> 
> Agree:
> 
> ...


John - I too agree that dogs can feel SOME secondary or cognitive emotions. But your theory seems to be that dogs can feel all of the same secondary or cognitive emotions that humans can. IMO, just because a dog may feel jealousy (or another secondary emotion) doesn't mean they will also feel guilt. I don't believe that dogs feel or express guilt.
-Jeanne-


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

MarinaGirl said:


> John - I too agree that dogs can feel SOME secondary or cognitive emotions. But your theory seems to be that dogs can feel all of the same secondary or cognitive emotions that humans can. IMO, just because a dog may feel jealousy (or another secondary emotion) doesn't mean they will also feel guilt. I don't believe that dogs feel or express guilt.
> -Jeanne-


Please allow me to clarify that I do not believe that just because a dog can feel some secondary emotions, that they can feel all secondary emotions, but I can see how my replies can be taken that way.

My point is that it is invalid to argue that dogs can't feel guilt and respect because guilt and respect are a secondary or coginitive emotions and dogs don't have that level of reasoning, but then argue that dogs can feel trust and jealousy.

Trust and Respect are mirror images of each other. Jealousy and Guilt may not be as closely related as Trust & Respect, but they too have very similar attributes.

Jealousy requires a dog to associate a positive that he/she is not getting to a behavior he/she is performing.

Guilt requires a dog to associate a negative that he/she is getting to a behavior he/she is performing.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

krandall said:


> HOWEVER, I do NOT think that a dog can associate a person's unhappiness, anger, disappointment, whatever, with an act that they did an hour before. (or even 5 minutes before&#8230; probably not ONE minute before) The period you have to either reward or punish (if you believe in doing that) a behavior is less than 3 seconds ...
> 
> ... And that's why, unless you catch a puppy IN THE ACT of eliminating in the wrong place, ANY sort of punishment/correction/what ever you want to call it, is not only not useful, but can EASILY be counterproductive.


Completely agree and believe this have been well documented and proven. That is why owners who punish their puppy often find poop hidden behind couches and under the bed.

I'm analyzing the other comments of your reply because they are clearly relevant to the discussion at hand and support much of what I'm saying. Kodi is obviously feeling something when he shuts down, probably frustration as opposed to guilty, but that doesn't mean he isn't capable of feeling guilt. In the example you provided, it's quite possible Kodi didn't know what you wanted him to do. The reason I say that is because my experiences with Gibbs. He's smart and a quick learner. In puppy classes, I noticed that when I was having trouble understanding the instructor, Gibbs didn't understand what to do. He'd sit down and stop. I knew it was my fault.

Do you believe a dog is capable of conscious disobedience? Like knowing you want him to do one thing, but he wants to play and chooses to not listen to you?


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## Den&Barb (Dec 6, 2013)

The best way I know to find out what's on their mind is teach them to talk and they will tell you!:lie:


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Den&Barb said:


> The best way I know to find out what's on their mind is teach them to talk and they will tell you!:lie:


right on.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> Trust and Respect are mirror images of each other.


I don't think this is true. IMO, you CAN'T have true respect for a person without trusting them.



Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> Jealousy requires a dog to associate a positive that he/she is not getting to a behavior he/she is performing.


Don't agree here either. The dog doesn't have to DO/NOT DO anything to see another dog getting something and feel jealous.



Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> Guilt requires a dog to associate a negative that he/she is getting to a behavior he/she is performing.


And see, THAT definition of guilt doesn't work for me at all. That would mean that only dogs trained with +P would experience "learned" guilt? Doesn't work for me.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> Completely agree and believe this have been well documented and proven. That is why owners who punish their puppy often find poop hidden behind couches and under the bed.
> 
> I'm analyzing the other comments of your reply because they are clearly relevant to the discussion at hand and support much of what I'm saying. Kodi is obviously feeling something when he shuts down, probably frustration as opposed to guilty, but that doesn't mean he isn't capable of feeling guilt. In the example you provided, it's quite possible Kodi didn't know what you wanted him to do. The reason I say that is because my experiences with Gibbs. He's smart and a quick learner. In puppy classes, I noticed that when I was having trouble understanding the instructor, Gibbs didn't understand what to do. He'd sit down and stop. I knew it was my fault.


Kodi actual DOES know these exercises well. He understands that he needs to stay heeling and not get "sucked" away by distractions until released. But that doesn't mean it's not HARD for him&#8230; like the dog, out in the woods who know he should walk on a loose lead&#8230; until a squirrel runs in front of his nose. Dogs have a hard time holding two things in their minds at once, (if they can do it at all&#8230; I'm not convinced they can) and sometimes instinct, or a strong distractor gets in the way of the behavior we're looking for. That's exactly why I "proof" trained behaviors with challenging distractors.

Today, as we were entering the ring at our training center, a Great Dane that Kodi knows well and likes was sitting RIGHT beside the in gate. Kodi knows that he needs to be giving me his FULL attention as we enter the ring, and he's pretty good about it. But this was a POWERFUL distraction. The owner of the Dane offered to move him, but I asked her to stay there. This could very easily happen at a trial, and I wanted Kodi to work through it. It took us a couple of approaches, but he went by that Dane within 6", never taking his eye off me. Then, the minute we got in the ring, we had a party to show him how pleased I was!

Likewise with the platform work. He has worked with a platform for 4 years now. He knows it well and likes it a LOT. This was a little harder approach to the platform, but still, he knows his job is to get COMPLETELY on the platform and sit straight. "Hanging off bits" do not get a click.  But dogs get sloppy if you let them, just like people. So we have to go back and tighten up behaviors like fronts, finishes, set-ups and tight heeling.

BTW, I would NEVER use even the very mild correction of an "oops!" or "try again!" with a behavior that he was learning and got wrong. I would reward even an approximation in the right direction, or AT MOST ignore the "wrong" response, and try to set it up for him to understand better. I certainly HAVE seen him shut down in confusion when I get something wrong, as you describe with Gibbs. (and I think you interpreted Gibbs' reaction correctly) but that's not what was happening her. He was getting frustrated because he knew what he was supposed to do, but it was HARD to get the piece right. As you can see in the video, I never let his frustration climb to a level where he shut down, and I made sure that I ended with something I was sure he could be successful with&#8230; and I kept it REALLY short. I always want him looking for more. If you'll notice, that entire training session was only 2 minutes long. (2:03, if you count the time spent turning the camera on and off )



Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> Do you believe a dog is capable of conscious disobedience? Like knowing you want him to do one thing, but he wants to play and chooses to not listen to you?


Absolutely!!! I don't know that suddenly allowing a major distractor to get in the way of correct performance falls in that category, though. But here's an example of what I think IS willful disobedience. Every once in a while, if we're playing ball in the yard, instead of bringing the ball back and handing it to me, Kodi will run close, then growl and run away with the ball. He knows the game, and sometimes he chooses to not play. In this instance, I immediately turn and walk away. Game over. If he doesn't play by the rules, we don't play the game. If I got sucked into "his" new game, and chased him, I would be rewarding that disobedience.

Another one, that fortunately he's MUCH better about now, is that when he was younger, but when he real DID understand "Leave it" and "Drop it", and would willingly give up low value items, his response, to "Leave it", if he found something really gross in the woods, was "I'll eat it faster, before she can get to me!"  Definitely willful disobedience, because the self-reward was MUCH stronger than ANYTHING that I could offer as a reward for obedience. All I could do was continue to train, train, train this behavior while (to the greatest extent possible) limiting opportunities to self-reward until the behavior I wanted was REALLY well ingrained.

This is one of the FEW instances, where something like a shock collar, in the hands of someone who used it well, would probably work faster than +R training, but I refuse to do that to the relationship I have with my dog, even to make training something easier.

So, yes, I definitely believe that dogs CAN be willfully disobedient. (I think anyone who lives with a terrier can tell you that ) But I also think you have to be VERY sure that the dog FULLY understands the behavior you want, AND that they are capable of performing reliably under whatever conditions are present at the time before you make the decision that the behavior is "willful". Even if you are SURE a dog is being willfully disobedient, you STILL need to decide what you are going to do about it. Will the fact that the behavior was "willful" make a difference in how you train better behavior? Getting mad at the dog or punishing him is unlikely to change the behavior. So at least with my training philosophy, I'm still back to strengthening the behavior I want with +R methods, strengthening my relationship with the dog so that he WANTS to "play" my "game" with me and managing the environment to prevent self-rewarding off-task behaviors.

I'm still not seeing any guilt.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

krandall said:


> And see, THAT definition of guilt doesn't work for me at all. That would mean that only dogs trained with +P would experience "learned" guilt? Doesn't work for me.


I refer back to the psychological definition of guilt.



Psychology Glossary said:


> In psychology, the term Guilt refers to an emotion where an individual feels responsible for some action or inaction that is perceived as having negative results. The feeling of guilt, whether justified or not, can lead to many negative psychological symptoms.
> 
> Read more: http://www.alleydog.com/glossary/definition.php?term=Guilt#ixzz2qc0QwyAP


A negative need NOT be punishment. A negative need only be the feeling of disappointment and negative energy/emotion from the loved one.



krandall said:


> Don't agree here either. The dog doesn't have to DO/NOT DO anything to see another dog getting something and feel jealous.


That was how jealousy was tested in these articles:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081209091945.htm

http://moderndogmagazine.com/articles/jealousy/19629

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201111/do-dogs-feel-jealousy-and-envy


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

Do you believe a dog is capable of conscious disobedience? Like knowing you want him to do one thing, but he wants to play and chooses to not listen to you?


krandall said:


> Absolutely!!!


So we can now agree on the following:

1. Dogs can feel some secondary or cognitive emotions.
2. Guilt is a secondary or cognitive motion.
3. Dogs can consciously choose to disobey
4.Humans can express disapproval either overtly or unintentionally simply by how they (humans) are feeling.
5.Dogs in some way can sense our energy, mood or feelings 
6.Dogs can associate their behavior with our approval and disapproval.
7.Our energy, mood or feelings affect our dogs energy, mood or feelings.

Where we disagree is that I believe the following the scenario meets the definition of Guilt. I actually believe the following is the very definition of psychological guilt.

3. A dog consciously chooses to disobey.
4. A human expresses disappointment either intentionally or unintentionally.
5. The dog senses our disapproval
6. The dog associates its behavior with our disapproval.
7. Sensing our emotions and/or disapproval, the dog sulks and/or offers appeasement.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Den&Barb said:


> The best way I know to find out what's on their mind is teach them to talk and they will tell you!:lie:


:thumb:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> Do you believe a dog is capable of conscious disobedience? Like knowing you want him to do one thing, but he wants to play and chooses to not listen to you?
> 
> So we can now agree on the following:
> 
> ...


Guess we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one&#8230; I've spent way to much time on the is (admittedly, interesting! ) thread today. GOT to get some work done!!!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Has anyone read "How Dogs Love Us" by Gregory Berns?

How Dogs Love Us: A Neuroscientist and His Adopted Dog Decode the Canine Brain: Gregory Berns: 9780544114517: Amazon.com: Books

I have just downloaded it on a neuroscientist friend's advice, but haven't yet read it; it sounds interesting?


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## Ruthiec (Jun 18, 2013)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> Where we disagree is that I believe the following the scenario meets the definition of Guilt. I actually believe the following is the very definition of psychological guilt.
> 
> 3. A dog consciously chooses to disobey.
> 4. A human expresses disappointment either intentionally or unintentionally.
> ...


Sorry but have to chime in as I've been following this with interest. I'm with Karen here although I have no basis for anything other than observation of my and other dogs. I get that point 7 above happens because of point 5 but it doesn't automatically follow that therefore a dog connects 7 to 3.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

Ruthiec said:


> Sorry but have to chime in as I've been following this with interest. I'm with Karen here although I have no basis for anything other than observation of my and other dogs. I get that point 7 above happens because of point 5 but it doesn't automatically follow that therefore a dog connects 7 to 3.


Have you ever felt bad because a loved one (mother, father, husband, child) was disappointed in something you did or didn't do even though there was NOTHING wrong with your choice/behavior?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> Have you ever felt bad because a loved one (mother, father, husband, child) was disappointed in something you did or didn't do even though there was NOTHING wrong with your choice/behavior?


The difference is that we can, even if we disagree with the value judgement, CONNECT the disapproval with the deed. Otherwise, what we feel is confusion, not guilt ("What did I do wrong?!?!?!")

Since the consequence (owner disapproval) in these instances comes WAY after the behavior, I do NOT believe dogs are capable of making that connection. So we we get back to the fact that it is wrong of the HUMAN to make a dog feel like he has to throw these appeasement signals, based on our response to a situation. I still don't think the response has ANYTHING to do with "guilt", but one way or the other, causing this behavior in the dog accomplishes NOTHING positive, and trains nothing. Certainly a dog can pick up on our negative emotions, definitely from body language and tone of voice, very likely also by smell. But WE need to learn to control this response as much as possible for the sake of our dogs, and channel that energy into a direction that will actually keep the behavior from recurring&#8230; either training, or managing the environment better.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> Have you ever felt bad because a loved one (mother, father, husband, child) was disappointed in something you did or didn't do even though there was NOTHING wrong with your choice/behavior?


Oh, and in terms of your "human" question, have I felt bad at another person's response to something I did/didn't do, even if I had no control over the situation? Sure. But I wouldn't call THAT "guilt" either. I would call it "regret". Regret that the person can't understand that I either had no control over what happened, or that the morally "right" thing to do was contrary to what they wanted. (This CERTAINLY happens while raising children! )


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

krandall said:


> Since the consequence (owner disapproval) in these instances comes WAY after the behavior, I do NOT believe dogs are capable of making that connection.


That is not my assertion, and I'm not necessarily arguing that a dog feels guilty after such a time period.

The discussion is whether or not a dog is capable for feeling guilt. I am suggesting that if a dog is capable of feeling Jealousy, a secondary/cognitive emotion, that a dog may be capable of feeling guilty, another secondary/cognitive emotion.

We can agree that a dog that sees another dog getting rewards and praise that the first dog is not, and acts accordingly, is experiencing the human equivalent of Jealousy.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1209091945.htm

http://moderndogmagazine.com/articles/jealousy/19629

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...lousy-and-envy

We agree the following components of guilt are present:
Humans can express disapproval either overtly or unintentionally simply by how they (humans) are feeling.
Dogs in some way can sense our energy, mood or feelings 
Dogs can associate their behavior with our approval and disapproval. (Even if only immediately)
Our energy, mood or feelings affect our dog's energy, mood or feelings.

However, we're not willing to call this the human equivalent of Guilt.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

krandall said:


> ... But I wouldn't call THAT "guilt" either. I would call it "regret".


Synonyms of Guilt per Merriam-Websters

contriteness, contrition, penitence, *regret*, remorse, remorsefulness, repentance, rue, self-reproach, shame

http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/guilt


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> Synonyms of Guilt per Merriam-Websters
> 
> contriteness, contrition, penitence, *regret*, remorse, remorsefulness, repentance, rue, self-reproach, shame
> 
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/guilt


And here is where we, again, get down to semantics. In my vocabulary, many of these words have subtly different meanings. (the joys of the English language! ) I certainly REGRET that there was a tsunami in Japan that caused incredible devastation, I feel absolute NO shame, remorse or self-reproach over that event. 

I don't think either one of us is going to convince the other, and there is, at this point (if it is EVER possible) no scientific evidence to support either view.

Can we agree that, even if you BELIEVE a dog feels guilt as you define it, there is no benefit to either party for a person to cause these "negative feelings" (no matter what word you put on them) in the dog? If so, then it is certainly in the dog's best interest, and probably in our best interest as well, for us to avoid, to the largest extent possible, CAUSING our dogs to throw off these appeasement behaviors?

I guess that's the bottom line from a practical point of view!


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

krandall said:


> And here is where we, again, get down to semantics. In my vocabulary, many of these words have subtly different meanings. (the joys of the English language! ) I certainly REGRET that there was a tsunami in Japan that caused incredible devastation, I feel absolute NO shame, remorse or self-reproach over that event.


No, but you may feel regret, contrition or guilt by choosing do something that your mother doesn't want you to do if you realize your action made her feel bad/anxious/hurt, even if there was nothing wrong with it.



krandall said:


> Can we agree that, even if you BELIEVE a dog feels guilt as you define it, there is no benefit to either party for a person to cause these "negative feelings" (no matter what word you put on them) in the dog?


I absolutely agree that intentionally causing these negative feelings has no benefit, whether we're talking human to dog or parent to child.

Can we also agree that we humans can unintentially cause these negative feelings through our own emotions and behavior?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> No, but you may feel regret, contrition or guilt by choosing do something that your mother doesn't want you to do if you realize your action made her feel bad/anxious/hurt, even if there was nothing wrong with it.
> 
> I absolutely agree that intentionally causing these negative feelings has no benefit, whether we're talking human to dog or parent to child.
> 
> Can we also agree that we humans can unintentially cause these negative feelings through our own emotions and behavior?


As long as we're not labeling that feeling as "guilt". 

OTOH, I also KNOW form my experiences with dogs, children and horses that, to a large extent if not always and completely, we can learn to CONTROL our responses so that we don't cause a negative reaction in the other being. That should be our goal.

As an example, while I won't call it "guilt" I was certainly shutting Kodi down while learning front crosses in agility. Partly because I was getting frustrated, partly because I was (unintentionally) physically getting in his way during the cross. So I started handing him a cookie during EVERY cross, so that whether I got in his way or not, the reward of the cookie overcame his shut-down response. Now he doesn't care WHAT I do in his face during a front cross, because it has been associated with a positive (food) so many times. I rarely give him a cookie during a cross anymore&#8230; just often enough to remind him that they re not something to be feared.

Fear. I've got it now! I think, with dogs, this is a better term than guilt (or even regret) for what is going on in their heads. They are fearful (however slightly) of the negative consequences of our body language, tone of voice, etc.

At least I finally thought THAT one through. Took me long enough!


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

krandall said:


> As long as we're not labeling that feeling as "guilt".


:wink:


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