# Amateur grooming #4



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Kodi was very patient with another marathon grooming session, but I think I’m getting better at it!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

This is what I carved off... another dog’s worth! LOL!


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## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

Great job! Wow, that's a lot of hair. I would bet Kodi loves his new do.:smile2:


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

You did a good job! I especially like the photo of the hair in the shape of a dog! I almost thought it was real!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

That is so funny! I love it!


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

krandall said:


> This is what I carved off... another dog's worth! LOL!


Haha! Wow! You did a great job. &#128578;


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Wow...that's a lot of hair! Love Kodi's haircut. You did a great job!


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

You might inspire me to try grooming, which I need to do in summers because we are in the mountains where there are no luxury type dog groomers. I think, the hardest part is scissor cutting the legs. I've got everything to do the job .... except it would be very! helpful to have a professional tub to bath her in. 

Kodie looks great!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> You might inspire me to try grooming, which I need to do in summers because we are in the mountains where there are no luxury type dog groomers. I think, the hardest part is scissor cutting the legs. I've got everything to do the job .... except it would be very! helpful to have a professional tub to bath her in.
> 
> Kodie looks great!!


I wash them in the kitchen sink. No professional tub! LOL! I started out scissoring his legs, and that's how I did his disasterous second cut that I didn't even SHOW here because it was so bad. He looked like the moths ate him! LOL! (A little uneven? I'll cut a little more here...) I'm actually using clippers with the LONGEST comb now, which is longer than groomers usually use (most people want their clip-jobs to "last" longer! LOL!) and I've found that I have to go down 2 comb lengths to do his legs. The longest comb takes nothing off at all.

I would, ideally, like him a TINY bit fluffier than this, but he will be again in 2 weeks or so, and he'll be EVEN. If I scissored him, he'd be longer, but uneven. I'm not a professional, so I have to compromise. LOL!


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

Not too bad! After Brisket finished his championship, I took him down to about 4" all over his body and blended the rest...apparently hand scissoring for my first ever groom was ambitious, and he didn't get to go on any outings for the first week, but now that it's had time to grow...cuuuute! Not a permanent thing for him, though, unlike Kodi


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

krandall said:


> I wash them in the kitchen sink. No professional tub! LOL! I started out scissoring his legs, and that's how I did his disasterous second cut that I didn't even SHOW here because it was so bad. He looked like the moths ate him! LOL! (A little uneven? I'll cut a little more here...) I'm actually using clippers with the LONGEST comb now, which is longer than groomers usually use (most people want their clip-jobs to "last" longer! LOL!) and I've found that I have to go down 2 comb lengths to do his legs. The longest comb takes nothing off at all.
> 
> I would, ideally, like him a TINY bit fluffier than this, but he will be again in 2 weeks or so, and he'll be EVEN. If I scissored him, he'd be longer, but uneven. I'm not a professional, so I have to compromise. LOL!


Hummmmmm! If clippers work on the legs I could may do that.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KarMar said:


> Not too bad! After Brisket finished his championship, I took him down to about 4" all over his body and blended the rest...apparently hand scissoring for my first ever groom was ambitious, and he didn't get to go on any outings for the first week, but now that it's had time to grow...cuuuute! Not a permanent thing for him, though, unlike Kodi


You never told us Brisket finished!!! CONGRATULATIONS!!! :cheer2:

I actually did a reasonably decent job scissoring Kodi the first time. It was AFTER that that I failed miserably! Why did you decide to cut Brisket down if you are going to griw him out again?

BTW, Panda stands at 10 points including a 5 pt major, so we are getting very close!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> Hummmmmm! If clippers work on the legs I could may do that.


I needed to do a little blending with the blnding sheers but you can see how he came out... not bad! Not perfect, but honestly, I've seen MUCH worse grooms on this forum that people have had to pay for! LOL!


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

krandall said:


> You never told us Brisket finished!!! CONGRATULATIONS!!! :cheer2:
> 
> I actually did a reasonably decent job scissoring Kodi the first time. It was AFTER that that I failed miserably! Why did you decide to cut Brisket down if you are going to griw him out again?
> 
> BTW, Panda stands at 10 points including a 5 pt major, so we are getting very close!!!


3 months back! He needed 5 points. I overslept by 3 hours, drove the 2 hours down to Iowa, showed my ungroomed dog, and took home a 5 point major and a new champion (and kennel cough, I learned later). I did NOT go back the second day ound:

You are braver than I, touching the legs and face. The body had the worst of it, so I vowed to only trim that. If I had done his legs or face, we would still be in the "don't go out in public" phase.

I knew I wasn't going to special him for a bit. We have a multi BIS winner that shows locally and I would like to be able to play on the group level a bit with Brisket (and I don't love the way Select points are set up), so I'm putting him up for a year or so. There was a LOT of damage going on (probably from coat change) that left the ends of his coat really thin and scraggly, so I figured I would cut him back so his ends were even again and let them grow, hopefully doing less damage this time around 

Good girl, Panda! Having that maturity on the other dogs sure can be nice, and she already has the benefit of being a very pretty girl!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KarMar said:


> 3 months back! He needed 5 points. I overslept by 3 hours, drove the 2 hours down to Iowa, showed my ungroomed dog, and took home a 5 point major and a new champion (and kennel cough, I learned later). I did NOT go back the second day ound:
> 
> You are braver than I, touching the legs and face. The body had the worst of it, so I vowed to only trim that. If I had done his legs or face, we would still be in the "don't go out in public" phase.
> 
> ...


Ahh, OK, so you want to do the special thing. I am pretty sure I am NOT doing that. I don't think she'll ever have the coat for it. Bitches hormones are always fighting against you there. It's the rare girl who can hold onto enough coat, (or stay out of the breeding box!) to keep specialling at Panda's age. If she belonged to a breeder, she would have been finished long ago, and probably would have had a litter or two. After she finishes, she'll go back to doing what we love best... performance stuff. With titles on both ends. 

As far as her reproductive tract is concerned, we've still got time. But I suspect I won't breed her, even though there is already a long list of people who would like a "Panda puppy IF I breed her" (including her vet  ) But she is a sad victim of circumstance. The right dog at the wrong time. My son, DIL, grand daughter and their two large dogs are living with us until their house is built, which is probably a 2 year project. I can't even THINK about raising a litter of puppies right now, let alone keeping one. I can barely find time to train the dogs I have. And why go to all the work, expense and risk of breeding her if I can't even keep one of the puppies for myself?

Which is a shame in so many ways. She is an interesting combination of American and European lines, she has good conformation, outstanding movement, a lovely disposition, has proven herself as a performance dog AND has passed all her health clearances, above and beyond those required for the breed (as did her parents). But... it's just not working for me in terms of my life. I'm still glad I've gone through the whole process though, even though it has cost a lot of money!!! (Something that people who wonder why puppies cost so much shouldn't forget!!!) Because I've learned a lot doing it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

And yes, the maturity thing definitely has helped a lot. She gaits perfectly, stacks herself. She’s really so easy to show now.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

We bathe in this sink we have in the laundry room. Which brings me to two questions. Do you fully soak them when bathing? Now that Oliver's hair is much thicker it takes like an hour to blow dry if I thoroughly saturate him. Secondly, what is your favorite shampoo and conditioner? I'm currently using a two in one, but I think I want a separate conditioner in hopes of easier combing and not breaking the hairs because we are combing so frequently.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Melissa Woods said:


> We bathe in this sink we have in the laundry room. Which brings me to two questions. Do you fully soak them when bathing? Now that Oliver's hair is much thicker it takes like an hour to blow dry if I thoroughly saturate him. Secondly, what is your favorite shampoo and conditioner? I'm currently using a two in one, but I think I want a separate conditioner in hopes of easier combing and not breaking the hairs because we are combing so frequently.


I bath mine in a large sink in the utility room where I have a grooming table set up. (I have a larger deeper sink the kitchen, I may switch to) I don't know how you can get them clean without soaking and getting the soap down to the skin. Karen has recommendations for a CC two in one Shampoo, I haven't tried yet. I've used CC White on White and conditioner but have yet figured out how the groomer gets Patti's hair _soooooo soft and smooth_ - she a loose wave in her hair.

I'm eager to try the CC Two in One Shampoo with Conditioner, because after bathing I *hate* putting conditioner on, letting it sit on the hair for a few minutes and then rinsing it out. In a small sink it's hard to keep Patti still because she wants out and doesn't like standing still.

My tricks for easy combing and getting the dog dry faster after bathing:


First before bathing, I comb her hair until it's slick with no tangles or mats.
When I shampoo her I don't tangle the hair by rubbing it in circles, rather I message/rub the hair in the direction it grows. 
I towel her off 
then turn her loose in a confined area and let her Shake-Shake-Shake Like Crazy. They can shake themselves to a damp wet or almost dry in warm weather. The shorter the hair the faster it drys.
I have a hairdryer stand, so I can use both hands and use a spray conditioner as I comb the hair out while drying.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Melissa Woods said:


> We bathe in this sink we have in the laundry room. Which brings me to two questions. Do you fully soak them when bathing? Now that Oliver's hair is much thicker it takes like an hour to blow dry if I thoroughly saturate him. Secondly, what is your favorite shampoo and conditioner? I'm currently using a two in one, but I think I want a separate conditioner in hopes of easier combing and not breaking the hairs because we are combing so frequently.


I dont feel like the conditioner gets deeps enough into the coat enough unless it's saturated. It takes me about an hour total to groom and dry and mine has a thick coat, but it definitely took longer when my puppy was blowing coat. Sometimes it was like an all day event with lots of breaks! Usually he gets a bath and I let him get his zoomies out, that's about half an hour. Then I wrap him in a towel (carefully so he doesn't mat) and he lays on my lap for a bit before I start drying. Then when I start drying it takes about half an hour.

Karen, I would love to hear if there are ways you have found to make bathing and drying faster since you have three of them! You suggested floating coat to me before and it worked well, do you usually submerge your own dogs' coats?

I love the length you're keeping Kody!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Mikki said:


> First before bathing, I comb her hair until it's slick with no tangles or mats.
> When I shampoo her I don't tangle the hair by rubbing it in circles, rather I message/rub the hair in the direction it grows.
> I towel her off
> then turn her loose in a confined area and let her Shake-Shake-Shake Like Crazy. They can shake themselves to a damp wet
> or almost dry in warm weather. The shorter the hair the faster it drys.


This is what I do, too. Except I usually try to comb extra well the day before a bath so I do more of a quick brushing to make sure there aren't any mats. There are some mats that are easier to get out after a bath, like if he got into something messy, and I leave those.

I usually use the shower because it has a better hand sprayer with a gentle setting mine loves, but in the sink I only fill water for conditioner. For shampooing I use the sprayer to wet, wash, and rinse.

He is so happy when i tell him it's time to "shake, shake, shake!" I wrap him in a towel after that. I could probably dry him in closer to 15-20 minutes because he's not soaking at that point by any means but I usually go slow because by then we're both cold and the nice hair dryer is relaxing and warms us up


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> This is what I do, too. Except I usually try to comb extra well the day before a bath so I do more of a quick brushing to make sure there aren't any mats. There are some mats that are easier to get out after a bath, like if he got into something messy, and I leave those.
> 
> I usually use the shower because it has a better hand sprayer with a gentle setting mine loves, but in the sink I only fill water for conditioner. For shampooing I use the sprayer to wet, wash, and rinse.
> 
> He is so happy when i tell him it's time to "shake, shake, shake!" I wrap him in a towel after that. I could probably dry him in closer to 15-20 minutes because he's not soaking at that point by any means but I usually go slow because by then we're both cold and the nice hair dryer is relaxing and warms us up


How do you bath your dog in a Shower? That's a thought ... _We've both almost had a bath or shower after Patti's bath._ After the shower you put him in the sink?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Woods said:


> We bathe in this sink we have in the laundry room. Which brings me to two questions. Do you fully soak them when bathing? Now that Oliver's hair is much thicker it takes like an hour to blow dry if I thoroughly saturate him. Secondly, what is your favorite shampoo and conditioner? I'm currently using a two in one, but I think I want a separate conditioner in hopes of easier combing and not breaking the hairs because we are combing so frequently.


There is no way to get the dog clean without thoroughly saturating the coat. You must clean right down to the skin, then rinse right down to the skin. For an adult in a puppy cut, I think an all in one shampoo is usually fine. But for most adults in full coat, and really all puppies blowing coat, you really need a separate conditioner. Which shampoo/conditioner combination will work best really depends on the individual coat. For Kodi, for years, my go-to combination was Biogroom Superwhite shampoo and CC Spectrum 10 conditioner. For Panda I use CC Proline Fair Advantage most of the time, but before shows or if her coat feels dry, I use Pantene Pro-v Sheer Volume Shampoo and Pantene Pro-V Daily Moisture Renewal Conditioner.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Karen, I would love to hear if there are ways you have found to make bathing and drying faster since you have three of them! You suggested floating coat to me before and it worked well, do you usually submerge your own dogs' coats?
> 
> I love the length you're keeping Kody!


Thanks!

Well, a lot of it is practice, and investing in quality equipment. I have a good grooming table, a stand dryer and a force dryer. The grooming loop and arm on the table to keep the dog still and keep your hands free is invaluable when drying.

Floating the coat is something you can do if the coat gets really dried out, but certainly isn't something you have to do often. Patti's mom mentioned having to leave her conditioner on for several minutes before rinsing it out. I don't know what conditioner that is, but all the ones I'v e used, you just mix with water, pour it over the dog, then rinse it out. There is no waiting needed!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Mikki said:


> How do you bath your dog in a Shower? That's a thought ... _We've both almost had a bath or shower after Patti's bath._ After the shower you put him in the sink?


I don't have a utility sink so other than the shower, it's the kitchen sink or the bathtub. We only have one bathtub and it's huge, and I'm short, so I just can't reach him without hanging uncomfortably over the edge. In some ways the kitchen sink is easier than the shower but it just seems to make a huge mess. Although I just realized I replaced the faucet last month and I wonder if it would be easier to use without spraying everywhere. I have to change after a bath either way, and at least the mess is better contained in the shower. I take off the handheld attachment and kneel with him, he definitely is completely saturated. Sometimes it's hard to get him to turn around to rinse his butt, though, because he wants to face me where he can keep an eye on what I'm doing. It's easier to manipulate his body in the sink, I don't have to coax him as much much. But that probably makes the shower better training because I have to ask him to do things and he has to obey instead of me just doing them. The shower attachment also has better adjustments so when I rinse the water actually helps his coat flow in the right direction without bunching it up.

I have used one of those rubbery teal IKEA buckets to fill with water and soak his coat in the shower, but I don't do it very often. If his coat seems dry, I use a heavier conditioner knowing he might need a bath sooner because it's faster (the heavier conditioners seem to attract a bit more dirt). But sometimes I sort of float his coat in the sink. I use the spray attachment to shampoo and rinse. Then I fill some water in the bottom of the sink and I apply full strength conditioner to the coarser parts of his coat and any areas prone to tangle. Then I start rinsing with the water from the bottom of the sink. The conditioner dilutes itself into the water as I'm rinsing and it leaves just a tiny bit in his coat, just enough for the finer portion. It's sort of my version of floating coat, where you soak the puppy's entire coat in diluted conditioner water and don't rinse it completely.

I feel like with the sink it's harder to make sure the shampoo is rinsed well but easier to avoid over rinsing the conditioner. And the sink uses less water. So, pros and cons to both.

One thing I notice is that sometimes when my husband gives him a bath, his coat is sort of a mess because he musses it around, but it still feels much better conditioned than when I do it as I start combing. Every time I ask what he did differently and he says, "I don't know," which makes me crazy! I wish I could figure out if he was using more or less conditioner, or maybe rinsing shampoo better, or diluting at a better ratio.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

I use a large, deep sink in my laundry room for Willow's bath. I don't fill it up more than 6 inches or so. I can get her saturated by using the hand held spray attachment. Also, because Willow is small, I can actually stand her under the faucet and let it run over her. I'm probably doing it all wrong. However, once she is shampooed, rinsed and conditioned, I drain the sink, rinse her by having her stand under the faucet, then finish up using the hand held attachment so I can get her tummy, butt and legs. Her coat is not real heavy so I think I'm getting her rinsed.

Somewhere on the forum there's a thread that discusses not combing out before bathing. So I've stopped doing that on bath day. I do towel dry her by just rubbing the towel down the length of her body so the hair doesn't tangle. I should let her do the zoomies and shake like others have mentioned but I don't. Then I blow dry her. She hates the force dryer so I mostly use my own hair dryer. Wish I had a grooming table. I really don't have the room for one though.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> I use a large, deep sink in my laundry room for Willow's bath. I don't fill it up more than 6 inches or so. I can get her saturated by using the hand held spray attachment. Also, because Willow is small, I can actually stand her under the faucet and let it run over her. I'm probably doing it all wrong. However, once she is shampooed, rinsed and conditioned, I drain the sink, rinse her by having her stand under the faucet, then finish up using the hand held attachment so I can get her tummy, butt and legs. Her coat is not real heavy so I think I'm getting her rinsed.
> 
> Somewhere on the forum there's a thread that discusses not combing out before bathing. So I've stopped doing that on bath day. I do towel dry her by just rubbing the towel down the length of her body so the hair doesn't tangle. I should let her do the zoomies and shake like others have mentioned but I don't. Then I blow dry her. She hates the force dryer so I mostly use my own hair dryer. Wish I had a grooming table. I really don't have the room for one though.


These ringside grooming tables come with a grooming arm, and can be quickly folded away to store behind a door or the couch. I use a similar one in our RV. It slides right behind our RV couch!: https://www.petedge.com/zpetedgemai...ring=ringside+grooming+table&wec-locale=en_US

(and yes, we had a single tub sink put in our RV, just so I could wash dogs in the kitchen sink! LOL!)


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> I use a large, deep sink in my laundry room for Willow's bath. I don't fill it up more than 6 inches or so. I can get her saturated by using the hand held spray attachment. Also, because Willow is small, I can actually stand her under the faucet and let it run over her. I'm probably doing it all wrong. However, once she is shampooed, rinsed and conditioned, I drain the sink, rinse her by having her stand under the faucet, then finish up using the hand held attachment so I can get her tummy, butt and legs. Her coat is not real heavy so I think I'm getting her rinsed.
> 
> Somewhere on the forum there's a thread that discusses not combing out before bathing. So I've stopped doing that on bath day. I do towel dry her by just rubbing the towel down the length of her body so the hair doesn't tangle. I should let her do the zoomies and shake like others have mentioned but I don't. Then I blow dry her. She hates the force dryer so I mostly use my own hair dryer. Wish I had a grooming table. I really don't have the room for one though.


In the summers when we go to the mountains we live in a small condo. I sit this portable grooming table on the night stand by our bed and pull up a stool to dry, clip and comb Patti. It worked so well I've thought about buying one for our home to sit on top my regular grooming table. It limits Patti moving around and I can turn the table instead of the dog.

It doesn't have a hair dryer arm holder thingy. But our end table has a lip on the top where I can clamp a hair dryer arm. Patti weights about 15lbs and it's big enough for her.

I have a friend who built a new home and in the utility room she has a professional dog bathtub and grooming area. Jealous!! :wink2: *GREAT!!* idea.

*I don't understand the reasons behind NOT combing a dog out first before bathing. Ideally, one is combing a Havanese on a frequent basis but still ....? *

I thought I read where Tom said they comb their dogs out before bathing and said you needed to get down to the skin.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

krandall said:


> These ringside grooming tables come with a grooming arm, and can be quickly folded away to store behind a door or the couch. I use a similar one in our RV. It slides right behind our RV couch!: https://www.petedge.com/zpetedgemai...ring=ringside+grooming+table&wec-locale=en_US
> 
> (and yes, we had a single tub sink put in our RV, just so I could wash dogs in the kitchen sink! LOL!)


OMGosh!!! I won't be complaining about my double sink in the utility room. The cost of these dogs are is nothing compared to the fortune we all have tied up in the paraphernaila that are... Nice to Haves.

I have not seen the table you're talking about. That's Super Convenient that it folds up. Did you find it at an RV store?


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## adalah (Feb 6, 2019)

Heather's said:


> Wow...that's a lot of hair! Love Kodi's haircut. You did a great job!


Agree


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

I was curious if anyone trims the tail also when doing a puppy cut? Mia’s tail gets so long. I have trimmed it a tiny bit couple times but it grows back very fast and I think it would be down on the floor if I let it go!


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

krandall said:


> These ringside grooming tables come with a grooming arm, and can be quickly folded away to store behind a door or the couch. I use a similar one in our RV. It slides right behind our RV couch!: https://www.petedge.com/zpetedgemai...ring=ringside+grooming+table&wec-locale=en_US


Karen - Can you attach a stand for a hair dryer to this grooming table? Does it hold the dog still or can the dog spin around in circles (like Willow does) when attached to the loop? Does the dog need to wear a collar in order to attach to the loop or does it just go around the neck?


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Mikki said:


> In the summers when we go to the mountains we live in a small condo. I sit this portable grooming table on the night stand by our bed and pull up a stool to dry, clip and comb Patti. It worked so well I've thought about buying one for our home to sit on top my regular grooming table. It limits Patti moving around and I can turn the table instead of the dog.


I've looked at this one several times on Amazon. It's small enough where I can just put it on the counter and I like the idea of turning the table and not the dog. Willow has a habit of spinning around while grooming however!


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

I don't understand the reasons behind NOT combing a dog out first before bathing. Ideally, one is combing a Havanese on a frequent basis but still ....? 

Mikki...I have had this discussion many times with our groomer who has been grooming for 30 years. She said dogs should always be completely brushed and combed to the skin before bathing. Any stubborn mats she scissors out. After the bath it takes about 40 minutes blow dry. It's a long process.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> OMGosh!!! I won't be complaining about my double sink in the utility room. The cost of these dogs are is nothing compared to the fortune we all have tied up in the paraphernaila that are... Nice to Haves.
> 
> I have not seen the table you're talking about. That's Super Convenient that it folds up. Did you find it at an RV store?


No, it was actually second hand. But I'd bet anything that our RV was less expensive than your condo. LOL! What we decide to spend outpr miney on is all relative!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> Karen - Can you attach a stand for a hair dryer to this grooming table? Does it hold the dog still or can the dog spin around in circles (like Willow does) when attached to the loop? Does the dog need to wear a collar in order to attach to the loop or does it just go around the neck?


Yes, you can attach a dryer stand to the table.

The grooming arm and loop keep the dog on the table, but no, they don't keep the dog still. They can still spin unless you teach them not to. I don't think anything can "hold" them still.

The loop goes around the dogs neck and then a short "leash" section clips onto the arm. There is no need for a separate collar.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

krandall said:


> No, it was actually second hand. But I'd bet anything that our RV was less expensive than your condo. LOL! What we decide to spend outpr miney on is all relative!


Ha!!! :grin2: We've had a RV and had LOTS!! of fun. I wanted to live and travel in it for a couple of years, but DH was not so excited about that idea. A sad day when we sold it. They aren't cheap to maintain. With RV travel you aren't tied down to one area. Some of those RVs cost WAY more than a house and condo put together. We bought the condo because our kids were living in Boulder, CO after they graduated from college and got married. Our thinking: When we retired we would have a place to stay and be close enough to visit. But ... they both moved out of state.

Moral of the Story: Don't move to be close to your kids, because they may move.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Mikki said:


> I don't understand the reasons behind NOT combing a dog out first before bathing. Ideally, one is combing a Havanese on a frequent basis but still ....? [/B]
> 
> I thought I read where Tom said they comb their dogs out before bathing and said you needed to get down to the skin.


Yes, I don't get it either. I tried to find the thread but no luck. If I come across it, I'll attach a link.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

I found the thread that has some posts about not brushing before bathing. https://www.havaneseforum.com/6-general-discussion/133602-what-your-grooming-schedule.html

There's only a couple of posts regarding not brushing before the bath. There's the first post on on the first page, and another on the 2nd page. It's an interesting thread regarding multiple grooming techniques.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Mikki said:


> In the summers when we go to the mountains we live in a small condo. I sit this portable grooming table on the night stand by our bed and pull up a stool to dry, clip and comb Patti. It worked so well I've thought about buying one for our home to sit on top my regular grooming table. It limits Patti moving around and I can turn the table instead of the dog.


Shama uses that table like a treadmill. I turn her butt toward me, and she walks around so I can't get to it. I rotate the table, and she walks around. It's very cute. I only tried the noose and the hip harness (bought separately) once because it was a hassle, and the noose stressed me out. I later realized the groomer just has her stand still on her table with no noose or walking. In the end, I don't use that table much. I groom 80% of her while she's sitting on my lap, and I sometimes get behind her back legs and sometimes don't. The last time we went to the groomer, our groomer said I'd done a good job and that she'd had hardly any matts. So I guess my method works. Had I known then what I know now, however, I would have got that exact table (originally recommended by Barbara who used it with Loki) and groomed Shama on it from the beginning. It's convenient grooming her on my lap, but she never comes to me to lie down in my lap like she does with DH ...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Another photo of Kodi now that he's grown out a bit and I've had a few days to even out some rough spots. With his de-stuffed monkey that he plays with every morning! LOL!

The other thing that helps him look more even is that right after he is blow dried, his hair is SO straight that it doesn't disguise ANY faults in cutting the way hair with a little more "floof" does. A couple of days of going back to its natural wave and it is a bit more forgiving.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

krandall said:


> Another photo of Kodi now that he's grown out a bit and I've had a few days to even out some rough spots. With his de-stuffed monkey that he plays with every morning! LOL!
> 
> The other thing that helps him look more even is that right after he is blow dried, his hair is SO straight that it doesn't disguise ANY faults in cutting the way hair with a little more "floof" does. A couple of days of going back to its natural wave and it is a bit more forgiving.


*IMPRESSIVE.* Kodi looks GREAT!! I love his short Mustache, Beard and Ears. I need to get my Mind Wrapped Around bathing and grooming Patti and put myself on a schedule. Bathing every week and grooming is expensive, but more than that I'm not very happy with the groomer. There's not enough GOOD groomers in this area, so I can't be real picky.

Did you trim Kodi's TAIL???? I like the way Kodi's tail stands up. Patti's tail hangs pass her knee.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Mikki said:


> *IMPRESSIVE.* Kodi looks GREAT!! I love his short Mustache, Beard and Ears. I need to get my Mind Wrapped Around bathing and grooming Patti and put myself on a schedule. Bathing every week and grooming is expensive, but more than that I'm not very happy with the groomer. There's not enough GOOD groomers in this area, so I can't be real picky.
> 
> Did you trim Kodi's TAIL???? I like the way Kodi's tail stands up. Patti's tail hangs pass her knee.


I was also wondering about tail trimming. Here is a picture of Mia after I whacked off a couple inches. Otherwise it gets very long. As far as full blown baths, Mia rarely ever gets one. If she gets dirty digging, I just sit her in the kitchen sink with a few inches of water and clean her legs and feet. She has not had a full bath in a year, looks clean and has no odor, has no skin issues and never scratches or chews herself. Her face and butt are cleaned daily with plain water and she is brushed and combed. Since her tongue is always out that area of her face does get stained so try to keep after that. Anyway, I guess I am a horrible dog mom for only bathing my dogs once or twice a year. Perhaps you should try bathing less often and see how it goes? Not sure why it is necessary to do it so often.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> *IMPRESSIVE.* Kodi looks GREAT!! I love his short Mustache, Beard and Ears. I need to get my Mind Wrapped Around bathing and grooming Patti and put myself on a schedule. Bathing every week and grooming is expensive, but more than that I'm not very happy with the groomer. There's not enough GOOD groomers in this area, so I can't be real picky.


That was the thing... I figured if I was going to hate it, it was better if I (a) didn't have anyone but myself to blame, and (b) at least didn't have to pay for it! LOL!



Mikki said:


> Did you trim Kodi's TAIL???? I like the way Kodi's tail stands up. Patti's tail hangs pass her knee.


No, I don't touch his tail. But he also has a very high, very correct tail carriage, even at 10 years old. The tip of the bone just misses touching his back, So even though his tail is very long, it doesn't hang that low. Pixel's tail is a bit tighter, (though not as tight as many Havanese) and her's hangs down the way you describe with Patti's. I still wouldn't touch her's either!

ETA: Oh, I also just realized that the way he is standing in both of these photos, the majority of his tail is on the other side of his body.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Perhaps you should try bathing less often and see how it goes? Not sure why it is necessary to do it so often.


Maybe because your dog is not a purebred Havanese her coat is a different texture? Papillon coats have ore oils in them than Havanese coats do. That could make a difference.

My dogs would mat badly if only bathed twice a year. Then again, I don't keep mine clipped as short as you have said you do, and I don't think most Havanese people do. (even the ones that ARE clipped) The two in puppy cuts definitely need it less often than Panda does, but even Pixel, who is the shortest, starts to get little mats next to the skin if she goes more than about 2 weeks between baths. I'd rather wash her every two weeks than have to pick tiny mats out of her daily.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

mudpuppymama said:


> I was also wondering about tail trimming. Here is a picture of Mia after I whacked off a couple inches. Otherwise it gets very long. As far as full blown baths, Mia rarely ever gets one. If she gets dirty digging, I just sit her in the kitchen sink with a few inches of water and clean her legs and feet. She has not had a full bath in a year, looks clean and has no odor, has no skin issues and never scratches or chews herself. Her face and butt are cleaned daily with plain water and she is brushed and combed. Since her tongue is always out that area of her face does get stained so try to keep after that. Anyway, I guess I am a horrible dog mom for only bathing my dogs once or twice a year. Perhaps you should try bathing less often and see how it goes? Not sure why it is necessary to do it so often.


Washing their feet, face, butt and combing might be enough for less frequent bathing. Patti's hair is thick and grows fast and she needs a trim every 4-5 weeks, unless I want to let it grow. Her chest hair gets long and drags in the dirt and needs clipped. It helps to have clean hair when it's being cut. If I go two weeks Patti's hair is no longer silky clean, like a human person's hair would be if they didn't wash their hair for a couple of weeks: It gets dirty. Her hair starts matting and is harder to comb. Patty can be smelly if she decides to roll in wet grass or a nice smelly dead snake, but otherwise she's not Doggie Smelly.

Mia's tail is beautiful. I'm sure you're a wonderful Doggie Mom. :tea:

I've just never had any dog that wasn't bathed every few weeks. And, I've always taken them to a groomer because I didn't want to do it. But, I'm not happy with my groomer at this time ... and may have to start.:crying:


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> Maybe because your dog is not a purebred Havanese her coat is a different texture? Papillon coats have ore oils in them than Havanese coats do. That could make a difference.
> 
> My dogs would mat badly if only bathed twice a year. Then again, I don't keep mine clipped as short as you have said you do, and I don't think most Havanese people do. (even the ones that ARE clipped) The two in puppy cuts definitely need it less often than Panda does, but even Pixel, who is the shortest, starts to get little mats next to the skin if she goes more than about 2 weeks between baths. I'd rather wash her every two weeks than have to pick tiny mats out of her daily.


Ahh it could be because Mia is part Papillon...good point. Her hair is a little silky. I really like the Chris Christensen brass fusion brush. Mia loves it and it seems it helps distribute oils from her skin. She never gets mats but was not sure if it is because of brushing her with that brush or not, or because she is kept shorter. I highly recommend this brush. Seems to get out loose hair near the skin too which can cause mats.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Mikki said:


> Washing their feet, face, butt and combing might be enough for less frequent bathing. Patti's hair is thick and grows fast and she needs a trim every 4-5 weeks, unless I want to let it grow. Her chest hair gets long and drags in the dirt and needs clipped. It helps to have clean hair when it's being cut. If I go two weeks Patti's hair is no longer silky clean, like a human person's hair would be if they didn't wash their hair for a couple of weeks: It gets dirty. Her hair starts matting and is harder to comb. Patty can be smelly if she decides to roll in wet grass or a nice smelly dead snake, but otherwise she's not Doggie Smelly.
> 
> Mia's tail is beautiful. I'm sure you're a wonderful Doggie Mom. :tea:
> 
> I've just never had any dog that wasn't bathed every few weeks. And, I've always taken them to a groomer because I didn't want to do it. But, I'm not happy with my groomer at this time ... and may have to start.:crying:


Thanks Mikki. Mia's hair grows super fast too and kind of uneven. Therefore, she is a work in progress. I just use scissors and seems I am constantly evening her up. But once she is short, it is easy to maintain by scissoring here or there. Although Mia digs she does not roll on disgusting stuff like my yorkie! I would highly recommend the Chris Christensen brass fusion brush. It is the only brush Mia likes. It gets down to the skin and removes loose hair and distributes oils. I think you could be good at grooming if you give it a shot. I was nervous about it at first but like anything once you do it awhile it is easy. The hardest thing to groom in my opinion is paw pads. I have not gotten myself to use clippers for that for fear of knicking something! And Mia has tons of hair between those toes!


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

krandall said:


> That was the thing... I figured if I was going to hate it, it was better if I (a) didn't have anyone but myself to blame, and (b) at least didn't have to pay for it! LOL!
> 
> No, I don't touch his tail. But he also has a very high, very correct tail carriage, even at 10 years old. The tip of the bone just misses touching his back, So even though his tail is very long, it doesn't hang that low. Pixel's tail is a bit tighter, (though not as tight as many Havanese) and her's hangs down the way you describe with Patti's.* I still wouldn't touch her's either!
> *
> ETA: Oh, I also just realized that the way he is standing in both of these photos, the majority of his tail is on the other side of his body.


Patti agrees,* "NO ONE IS GOING TO TOUCH MY TAIL WITHOUT AN ALL OUT WAR." * Although, she's always been protective of her tail, in the past she's let me comb it, if I'm quick. All of the sudden she's become overly protective ... I'm afraid she might actually bite me. _I think something happened at the Groomers._


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Mikki said:


> Patti agrees,* "NO ONE IS GOING TO TOUCH MY TAIL WITHOUT AN ALL OUT WAR." * Although, she's always been protective of her tail, in the past she's let me comb it, if I'm quick. All of the sudden she's become overly protective ... I'm afraid she might actually bite me. _I think something happened at the Groomers._


That is funny!!! Note that Mia is great for all grooming activities, however her least favorite is me brushing her tail. I used to have a mobile groomer long ago and not sure what went on in there but Mia would not let me come near her with a brush. And my yorkie hated nail clippers. After grooming them myself for awhile they both love to be groomed. Nail clipping will never be a favorite but so much better now! I am sure there are great groomers out there but I am sure there are some that are not...just like anything. I am so glad I started grooming them myself. I have probably saved thousands of dollars too over the past 10 years. In addition, we do nails once a week. Just doing them at the groomer was not often enough for my dogs even though they walk a lot.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

mudpuppymama said:


> Ahh it could be because Mia is part Papillon...good point. Her hair is a little silky. I really like the Chris Christensen brass fusion brush. Mia loves it and it seems it helps distribute oils from her skin. She never gets mats but was not sure if it is because of brushing her with that brush or not, or because she is kept shorter. I highly recommend this brush. Seems to get out loose hair near the skin too which can cause mats.


Never gets mats? Wow! I can't imagine! Count your blessings!


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Mikki said:


> Patti agrees,* "NO ONE IS GOING TO TOUCH MY TAIL WITHOUT AN ALL OUT WAR." * Although, she's always been protective of her tail, in the past she's let me comb it, if I'm quick. All of the sudden she's become overly protective ... I'm afraid she might actually bite me. _I think something happened at the Groomers._


I'm sorry to hear something may have happened at the groomer's. On her second to last trip to the groomer's, Shama threw up upon arrival. Normally she just quivers as if to say, "Get me out of here!" It made us wonder if we should shop for a new groomer. She always seems to be in a merry mood when we pick her up. She seems to like playing with the groomer's cat (whose name is Chunk - I love that name!) My comfortable and cooperative care teacher thinks I should just groom Shama myself since we keep her in a long coat (i.e., I would actually only do a small amount of hair cutting ...) I'll consider at the end of my class. So far, I had to miss the first class, and this week we had a snow day ...


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

ShamaMama said:


> Never gets mats? Wow! I can't imagine! Count your blessings!


Thanks ShamaMama. As I said, I do brush her every day and keep her fairly short. I am not sure what would happen otherwise! The Chris Christensen brass fusion brush is wonderful...can't say enough about it.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

:xI'm in Love with this Honey Girl:x

I have a new Sony Lens I'm testing and figuring out how to use. This was a quick unplanned shot. The Boken and the Detail is just WOW!! You may not be able to see it in this low resolution file, but my reflection is in her eyes.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Mikki said:


> :xI'm in Love with this Honey Girl:x
> 
> I have a new Sony Lens I'm testing and figuring out how to use. This was a quick unplanned shot. The Boken and the Detail is just WOW!! You may not be able to see it in this low resolution file, but my reflection is in her eyes.


Beautiful picture!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

ShamaMama said:


> I'm sorry to hear something may have happened at the groomer's. On her second to last trip to the groomer's, Shama threw up upon arrival. Normally she just quivers as if to say, "Get me out of here!" It made us wonder if we should shop for a new groomer. She always seems to be in a merry mood when we pick her up. She seems to like playing with the groomer's cat (whose name is Chunk - I love that name!) My comfortable and cooperative care teacher thinks I should just groom Shama myself since we keep her in a long coat (i.e., I would actually only do a small amount of hair cutting ...) I'll consider at the end of my class. So far, I had to miss the first class, and this week we had a snow day ...


One thing great about home grooming is that you do not have to conquer Rome in a day. A little bit here and there adds up and in my opinion is less stressful. Good luck with your decision.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Thanks Mikki. Mia's hair grows super fast too and kind of uneven. Therefore, she is a work in progress. I just use scissors and seems I am constantly evening her up. But once she is short, it is easy to maintain by scissoring here or there. Although Mia digs she does not roll on disgusting stuff like my yorkie! I would highly recommend the Chris Christensen brass fusion brush. It is the only brush Mia likes. It gets down to the skin and removes loose hair and distributes oils. I think you could be good at grooming if you give it a shot. I was nervous about it at first but like anything once you do it awhile it is easy. The hardest thing to groom in my opinion is paw pads. I have not gotten myself to use clippers for that for fear of knicking something! And Mia has tons of hair between those toes!


Try these: https://smile.amazon.com/Wahl-Profe...ds=whiskertrimmer&qid=1579490206&sr=8-2-spell

They are really cheap, very quiet and tiny and light weight. I've used them for years, first for clipping ear hair on young, flighty horses, then for paw pads on my dogs. Believe me, you CAN'T hurt your dog with them, and they are so quiet I've never even seem a puppy object to them. Even the ones who HATE having their nails done.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> Patti agrees,* "NO ONE IS GOING TO TOUCH MY TAIL WITHOUT AN ALL OUT WAR." * Although, she's always been protective of her tail, in the past she's let me comb it, if I'm quick. All of the sudden she's become overly protective ... I'm afraid she might actually bite me. _I think something happened at the Groomers._


Oh, I didn't mean THAT! LOL! i just meant I LOVE their long, flowy Havanese tails... even when the rest of them is trimmed, I like to leave their tails long! LOL!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> :xI'm in Love with this Honey Girl:x
> 
> I have a new Sony Lens I'm testing and figuring out how to use. This was a quick unplanned shot. The Boken and the Detail is just WOW!! You may not be able to see it in this low resolution file, but my reflection is in her eyes.


Beautiful!!!


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Thanks! for all the input on Self-Grooming. Now to get my courage up.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> Try these: https://smile.amazon.com/Wahl-Profe...ds=whiskertrimmer&qid=1579490206&sr=8-2-spell
> 
> They are really cheap, very quiet and tiny and light weight. I've used them for years, first for clipping ear hair on young, flighty horses, then for paw pads on my dogs. Believe me, you CAN'T hurt your dog with them, and they are so quiet I've never even seem a puppy object to them. Even the ones who HATE having their nails done.


Wow thanks Karen. I ordered them and they are coming tomorrow. I do have a very expensive high quality battery operated clippers but they are too big and awkward for paw pads in my opinion. It seems Mia has more hair between her toes than my yorkie has on his whole body. And he has hardly any hair between toes!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Mikki said:


> Thanks! for all the input on Self-Grooming. Now to get my courage up.


I always groom dogs right before dinner when they are hungry and have lots of treats cut up in itty bitty pieces. They get treats throughout the grooming session and especially after I do something that aren't crazy about. I do this every day and now when it gets near grooming time Mia stands by the grooming table and demands to be groomed!!! I keep the grooming sessions short and positive and can sense when they are ready for it to end. There is always tomorrow to finish what I did not do today. As far as safety, when using scissors which is my main tool, I try to keep my fingers between scissors and dog whenever possible. I have been knicked a few times but the dogs have remain unscathed! I also have a scissors with rounded tips.

You can do it Mikki. Just take it slow.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> Thanks! for all the input on Self-Grooming. Now to get my courage up.


That's sure what took ME the longest!!!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Mikki said:


> Thanks! for all the input on Self-Grooming. Now to get my courage up.


Who knows...you may become really courageous and start cutting your own hair like I do! :grin2:


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

LOVE that photo, Mikki! Mudpuppymama, let's see a photo of YOUR haircut! (Tee hee!)


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

ShamaMama said:


> LOVE that photo, Mikki! Mudpuppymama, let's see a photo of YOUR haircut! (Tee hee!)


At age 65, having a gorgeous haircut is probably the least of my beauty "challenges". Here is a picture of my homemade haircut. I am petting a giant beetle in this picture that I just rescued from my two little beasts!


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

mudpuppymama said:


> At age 65, having a gorgeous haircut is probably the least of my beauty "challenges". Here is a picture of my homemade haircut. I am petting a giant beetle in this picture that I just rescued from my two little beasts!


Love the haircut with the cute lady wearing it.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Mikki said:


> Love the haircut with the cute lady wearing it.


Thanks Mikki. I left the salon far too many times feeling like I wanted to put a bag over my head. Figured I could not do any worse and even if I did I could console myself that I did not waste all that money. When you have a short haircut, sometimes they want to "give you your money's worth" and wind up feeling like your head was shaved!!! I think they do this with dogs too!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> At age 65, having a gorgeous haircut is probably the least of my beauty "challenges". Here is a picture of my homemade haircut. I am petting a giant beetle in this picture that I just rescued from my two little beasts!


I'm impressed!!!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> I'm impressed!!!


Thanks Karen. Note that my hair is very wavy so very "forgiving" if you know what I mean. :laugh2:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Thanks Karen. Note that my hair is very wavy so very "forgiving" if you know what I mean. :laugh2:


I do. Mine is the exact opposite very fine and stick straight. I need professional help! LOL!


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

mudpuppymama said:


> At age 65, having a gorgeous haircut is probably the least of my beauty "challenges". Here is a picture of my homemade haircut. I am petting a giant beetle in this picture that I just rescued from my two little beasts!


I used to have bangs and couldn't even trim them evenly. I'd never cut my own hair!

Is that one of those giant Japanese hissing beetles? I've come across them in the eastern part of our state. They would snap and hiss. Really a cool bug!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> I used to have bangs and couldn't even trim them evenly. I'd never cut my own hair!
> 
> Is that one of those giant Japanese hissing beetles? I've come across them in the eastern part of our state. They would snap and hiss. Really a cool bug!


I am not sure what kind of beetle it is, but it was the biggest beetle I ever saw and very colorful. My two "hunters" looked like they were going to take it out. I felt sorry for the beetle and rescued it. My husband took the picture of me petting it to show how big it was. Note that my yorkie loves to eat bugs...in summer when we go out to potty before bed he typically has a beetle "snack"...crunch, crunch...ughh!


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

mudpuppymama said:


> Note that my yorkie loves to eat bugs...in summer when we go out to potty before bed he typically has a beetle "snack"...crunch, crunch...ughh!


The corgi I used to have loved grasshoppers - the great big kind. Plus they were fun to try and catch! Once caught, down the hatch they went.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> The corgi I used to have loved grasshoppers - the great big kind. Plus they were fun to try and catch! Once caught, down the hatch they went.


I think bugs are supposed to be nutritious too. My yorkie will even eat a live cicada. Can you imagine how a buzzing cicada feels in your mouth? Mia has started to like them too! More habits she is learning from my yorkie!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Mikki said:


> :xI'm in Love with this Honey Girl:x
> 
> I have a new Sony Lens I'm testing and figuring out how to use. This was a quick unplanned shot. The Boken and the Detail is just WOW!! You may not be able to see it in this low resolution file, but my reflection is in her eyes.


Gorgeous!


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