# Ellie is 13 and Diagnosed with IBD



## mlg (Feb 23, 2020)

Ellie has always been a healthy dog with a great interest in anything that might be food. For the first 6 or so years of her life she ate a raw diet with a little kibble and table scraps of all kinds. The only issue she/I faced was that her teeth were bad and she bullied me into not taking as good care of them as I now would. Therefore at 13 she has lost approx 2/3 of her teeth.

At the start of the pandemic I noticed Ellie was sleeping a lot, kind of lethargic and a bit grumpy. She did experience big changes in that she no longer went to playgroup 3 afternoons a week. I am a psychotherapist and whenever she was home she had a bed in my office. She had trained all my patients to pet her before saying hello to me  Suddenly no one came to my office and I was glued to my computer screen for hours. But Ellie has always been resilient and I wasn't comfortable attributing a rather sudden energy/personality change to covid or to her suddenly becoming "old".

Two vet visits about a year apart with full bloodwork and tooth maintenance revealed nothing. The vets were content to say she was an older dog and they sleep a lot etc.

I didn't know better and relied upon Dog Food Advisor to recommend the best diet for a "senior" dog who had had several teeth pulled and couldn't eat much kibble. As a result her primary diet became high protein, high quality canned food. She continued to eat a little of almost everything I ate but seemed to lose interest in many foods she'd loved.

About six months ago her stools became softer than usual and this continued to worsen until I had a "real" symptom to bring to the vet. A dose of Metrodiazole and a reduction of table scraps improved her condition but only for a little while. I tried several "good" probiotics. Dr Mercola probiotics for dogs was helpful but clearly there was something wrong.

The Present: her stools became extremely soft, sometimes a bit of diarrhea and she slept so soundly I sometimes feared she had past away. Two stool samples a few days apart were negative. At this time I first found out that she could have an ultrasound - no one had offered this possibility before.

The ultrasound resulted in a diagnosis of IBD and a recommendation to put her on metrodiazole AND baytril for two weeks. And - a strong recommendation that she eat Hills Gastrointestinal Biome for the rest of her life. I was also told she should NOT have a lot of protein in any form. Ellie threw up the two antibiotics and now simply refuses to continue on the metrodiazole. I've just ordered it in compounded flavored form from Chewy. And she remains on the Biome as 90% of her intake.

She very quickly aged backward and for a few days, met me with a stuffed animal to throw around every corner. Her stools are now just a tiny bit soft but nothing beyond her lifelong tendency.

The vets she has seen at this practice are licensed internists. I am not in a life situation where it is possible for me to follow recipes and cook all her food. I can however, cook part of her food if I knew what to give her. I'm not comfortable feeding Hills Biome for the rest of her life and I want to do something more to help her actually get well. This is really the only thing wrong with her. I can't even understand what makes Hills Biome so special....but it is working and I can't ignore that.

I could take her to a specialty facility where they might do another ultrasound and maybe an endoscopy to obtain a biopsy. She would not enjoy it! Might it provide information that might help healing.

Ellie is my first dog and there's a lot I'd do differently. I want to do the best and most responsible thing to help her without making her life miserable in the process. Hoping some in the forum have some suggestions and perhaps similar experiences.

Apologies for the length of this post and appreciation for all thoughts and suggestions.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Have you looked into a delivery service for meals? There are both raw and fresh ingredient plans depending on the company. I believe most of them can manage special nutritional needs.

I think you did the right thing by not assuming the issues were related to covid, and it sounds like the diet changes are an issue, so hopefully resolving that will help with the diagnosis. I personally think it’s okay to accommodate a little grumpiness from dogs as they get older to a degree, but it’s good you’re making sure to resolve the underlying problem. There are several other members with a dogs with IBD so maybe they can make suggestions on what to explore with your vet. Sundance doesn’t have IBD but he does have a sensitive, sort of reactive stomach. For a long time it was hard to tell if it made a difference, but I’m certain now that a probiotic helps. Is there a veterinary nutritionist you could consult? The nutritionist that a lot of forum members used years ago used to be able to make recommendations that optimized or met the same requirements as prescription diets. Members have been successful in feeding several different diets to their IBD dogs, but sometimes they need to stabilize on the prescription diet first, or the prescription diet is what works best, and that’s okay. Sometimes it’s clear the diet is the problem and it seems relatively common for vets to sort of accept minimal improvement, so don’t be afraid to keep bringing it up or get a second opinion.

In the meantime, maybe she would benefit from a different kind of structured, stimulating social activity than what she had before. A lot of people have experienced life changes during covid having an affect on their dogs, and at the very least it’s probably a piece of the puzzle. If other owners from your previous group have also had changes in their lives, maybe the group could be reorganized or reimagined a little to meet different needs. Ellie might respond better to a playgroup with the same frequency but a smaller group, or for a shorter length of time, or a group with or without puppies.


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## BoosDad (Mar 8, 2020)

Boo was diagnosed with presumptive IBD in July 2020, based on ultrasound and lab work. Due to his advanced age at that time (17), biopsy was not an option. His IBD is stable on a combination of medication and home cooked diet. Message me, if you want more information or check out his thread “Diary of a 19 year old Havanese.”


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

IMO, IBD is a symptom, not a disease, and the root cause is often diet. Unfortunately, the vets are going to prescribe drugs like Metronidazole and antibiotics to completely destroy the gut biome which makes matters worse and further complicates getting to root cause. The dog’s gut is now completely messed up and will be unable to digest anything properly, so they then prescribe one of the prescription diets which work temporarily due to tons of fiber to artificially firm up the stools and which does not require the dog to use its own digestive system (now rendered useless) to break down the food.

Giving probiotics while on antibiotics is essentially useless because the antibiotics are going to destroy whatever benefits the probiotics provide. They can be helpful after the antibiotics are stopped.

You are wise to not want to feed the prescription food indefinitely. If this were my dog, I would stop the drugs and try to get to the root cause of the diet issues. Once the gut is messed up it may take awhile.

I wonder if finding a limited ingredient diet and cutting out all table scraps would be a start. There is nothing wrong with table scraps, however when getting to the root cause of an issue it is important to eliminate variables. For example, start with one protein source and stick with that for awhile. Kibble is very starchy and hard to digest so I would avoid that. I would also avoid legumes which are crazy high in starch…worse than grains. I would add some digestive enzymes to help the dog be better able to digest their food. Ideally the food would have no grains or legumes and be lower in fat. A homemade diet is best because you have complete control over the ingredient content and quality. However, I realize some people are hesitant about this. There are lots of commercial options out there that may work. It may take some experimentation, however if you believe she is doing better I would take this approach vs. more invasive tests and stress.

Note that the above is my opinion only. Please do your own research. I hope you find a solution. Note that slippery elm powder can be useful for occasional dietary upsets.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

IBD _is_ a real disease, but it can only be definitively DX'd with an intestinal biopsy. Many dog owners are reluctant to do that if they can get the symptoms under control with medical management. Kodi is one of those dogs.

I also do not agree that probiotics do not help in the presence of antibiotics. If this were the case, humans would not be told to start taking probiotics when they need to take antibiotics to prevent diarrhea. (and it works) Obviously you DO want to avoid antibiotics as much as possible, and use the mildest antibiotics possible if you HAVE to use them, but sometimes they re necessary, depending on the dog and the situation.

In Kodi's case, his IBD is partially aggravated by also having a number of food intolerances, so we needed to sort those out. Which we did with the help of Hemopet Nutriscan (interpreted by or vet). But even removing those things from his diet (which also helped with a bunch of itching problems he was having, he was still having AWFUL problems with Clostridium overgrowth, which, although it is a normal gut bacteria, when it gets out of control, causes blow-out diarrhea, with a distinctive HORRIBLE smell, and terrible, painful gas, which left him lying prone across my lap, crying in pain all night long, over and over again. Once he HAD the overgrowth, only Metronidazole would clear it. But that is a really heavy duty drug, and really not one you want a dog on very often. So instead, we put him on a very low dose of Tylan (Tylosyn) powder. This has worked very well for him to prevent the Clostridium overgrowth, but every time we have tried tp take him off it, it has recurred.

He is on a limited ingredient diet, and over the years, we have had to change proteins as he has sensitized to one protein after another. (typical with these dogs) He is now on lamb, after having started on turkey, then moved to duck. (he cannot eat beef, dairy chicken or fish at all) He is 13 now, and I can get his commercial, canned, limited ingredient food in both rabbit and bison. So we are pretty sure we will be able to get through his remaining life before we run out of options. 

Anyone with a dog with TRUE IBD will tell you that it is a life-long balancing act. It is not a "sensitive stomach", nor is it s a "food sensitivity, though those things may also be true. You will spend a lot of time learning to recognize symptoms, when to call the vet, and how to manage things on your own.

Every IBD dog will need to be managed differently, but this is how we manage Kodi:

Limited ingredient diet
Treats only from his allowed proteins (or fruits, veggies or Charlee Bears)
Tylan Powder daily
Pancrea Powder Daily
Soil Based probiotics daily (Mud Puppy Mama caught that one, when he started having break-through problems at one point... the probiotics we were using were whey (dairy) based!!! You need to be SOOOO careful!!!)

For years we used Pepcid (5mg) 2x daily as needed for nausea. Now, he is on it 2x daily every day.
We keep Cerenia on hand for if things get bad, but I do not give it without talking to the vet first, as it can interfere with vomiting when vomiting can be a GOOD thing!
Gabapentin (can't remember the dose) daily we started giving this to him when he hurt his shoulder. Now we believe it his helping him with gut pain. But he clearly does better with it.

NOW comes the part I feel worst about. I am quite convinced that I caused his problems by over-vaccinating him as a puppy. He was my first dog, and I THOUGHT I was doing the right thing by allowing my local vet to stick him with every vaccine made. It makes me want to cry now. I also own his half sister, and know many of his close relatives. He is the ONLY one I know of with these problems, but also the only one who was over-vaccinated. His sister has a stomach like cast iron. 

I am sure that not every dog with IBD was over-vaccinated, but most of the ones that I know personally, when we all compare stories... we find out that most have that in common. So those of you with puppies reading this... PLEASE don't do it!!! By all means, vaccinate your puppies and keep them safe, but do not OVER vaccinate!


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## BoosDad (Mar 8, 2020)

I agree with krandall that IBD is a real disease but only can be confirmed by biopsy. That is why Boo only has a presumptive diagnosis. I also agree that a limited vaccine protocol is a good way to go. For Boo, however, he developed presumptive IBD, even though he only had limited vaccines.

I would check B12 levels, if you have not done so. Often, IBD dogs need a supplement of this important vitamin. Although gut issues can be unpleasant, they can be managed, if you keep tinkering with things, and your Havanese can lead a happy life.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

I absolutely agree with Krandall, and we followed similar routes as she and Kodi did, though Tucker was even harder to manage and faced difficult balancing for all of his life. He was on the meds and supplements that Karen uses for Kodi, (plus several others,) and it was a constant, daily effort to keep him as well as possible. 

I also believe that his was caused by over vaccinating from following the vets' insistence of giving every vaccine possible, at the soonest possible times, even though I finally figured out (by myself and research,) by the time he was a little more than 1 year old, that the vaccines were the issue that permanently damaged his immune system. By the time he was 12 he could not tolerate chicken, beef, lamb, salmon, and duck; rabbit and kangaroo were starting to be problematic. 

Tucker was tested in every way short of biopsy. He was so chemically sensitive that I preferred to not risk that if I could control it with the same treatment the IBD route showed. 

There are some FaceBook pages for IBD dogs you might be interested in checking out. 

Dogs with Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD/Canine Chronic Enteropathy) | Facebook








Dogs with Inflammatory Bowel Disorder (IBD) | Facebook


A support group for those who have a dog, cat, pet that suffers from IBD or any other stomach problems, to share ideas, tips, stories, etc. Posted below is some information I got off the net and...




www.facebook.com


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Sorry for all you guys suffering with IBD. This sounds very difficult and frustrating. Great testimony too on how important it is to minimize vaccines.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

BoosDad said:


> I agree with krandall that IBD is a real disease but only can be confirmed by biopsy. That is why Boo only has a presumptive diagnosis. I also agree that a limited vaccine protocol is a good way to go. For Boo, however, he developed presumptive IBD, even though he only had limited vaccines.
> 
> I would check B12 levels, if you have not done so. Often, IBD dogs need a supplement of this important vitamin. Although gut issues can be unpleasant, they can be managed, if you keep tinkering with things, and your Havanese can lead a happy life.


Yes, Kodi is currently getting B12 shots. Forgot that one! LOL!


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## Johanna (11 mo ago)

Tylosin powder is definitely helpful and can be used long term. I recently started using Honest Kitchen's instant goats milk with added probiotics and it's made a difference for my boy with lifelong digestive problems. I mix with it bottled water as directed and pour a little over all of my dogs food daily. Goat's milk is known to be very beneficial to dogs with IBD. It has many other health benefits as well.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Sheri said:


> I absolutely agree with Krandall, and we followed similar routes as she and Kodi did, though Tucker was even harder to manage and faced difficult balancing for all of his life. He was on the meds and supplements that Karen uses for Kodi, (plus several others,) and it was a constant, daily effort to keep him as well as possible.
> 
> I also believe that his was caused by over vaccinating from following the vets' insistence of giving every vaccine possible, at the soonest possible times, even though I finally figured out (by myself and research,) by the time he was a little more than 1 year old, that the vaccines were the issue that permanently damaged his immune system. By the time he was 12 he could not tolerate chicken, beef, lamb, salmon, and duck; rabbit and kangaroo were starting to be problematic.
> 
> ...


Sheri and I and Dee Dee, whose little girl, Sophie, is about the worst case I know, (and NOT caused by over-vaccination!) often have cried on each other's shoulders over the years! 💕


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Johanna said:


> Tylosin powder is definitely helpful and can be used long term. I recently started using Honest Kitchen's instant goats milk with added probiotics and it's made a difference for my boy with lifelong digestive problems. I mix with it bottled water as directed and pour a little over all of my dogs food daily. Goat's milk is known to be very beneficial to dogs with IBD. It has many other health benefits as well.



Kodi can't handle ANY dairy... even goats milk, and we tried THK, but because they use "Seasonal fresh vegetables", we couldn't stick with it... too many variables in the diet for him. We used "Balance It" and I cooked for him for a while, but then I found that he could tolerate Nature's Variety Limited Ingredient food. And while I love him dearly, I don't really love cooking for the HUMANS, let alone the dogs! So he gets that! LOL!


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## Johanna (11 mo ago)

krandall said:


> Kodi can't handle ANY dairy... even goats milk, and we tried THK, but because they use "Seasonal fresh vegetables", we couldn't stick with it... too many variables in the diet for him. We used "Balance It" and I cooked for him for a while, but then I found that he could tolerate Nature's Variety Limited Ingredient food. And while I love him dearly, I don't really love cooking for the HUMANS, let alone the dogs! So he gets that! LOL!


Yes, finding the magical food that works is one of the biggest hurdles. For my boy (Boris), the magic food is NutriSource grain free lamb. I tried SO many others thinking each diet would be the one that would work for him. None of the prescription diets helped. He's only been eating the NutriSource for years and I don't dare try to change anything with him at this point (he's 13 and this has been a life long struggle). My other dogs have a varied diet with a mix of kibble, freeze dried raw and the added goat's milk. We did find out recently (by accident) that we've been able to stop his medications all together after adding in the goat's milk with probiotics. I went out of town for a week and left Boris at home and someone forgot to give him his daily meds for a few days. At first I was extremely upset but then I realized that he was actually doing ok and seemed to have a little more energy. I still have his meds on hand in case he has a flare but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that he won't need them anytime soon.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Johanna said:


> Yes, finding the magical food that works is one of the biggest hurdles. For my boy (Boris), the magic food is NutriSource grain free lamb. I tried SO many others thinking each diet would be the one that would work for him. None of the prescription diets helped. He's only been eating the NutriSource for years and I don't dare try to change anything with him at this point (he's 13 and this has been a life long struggle). My other dogs have a varied diet with a mix of kibble, freeze dried raw and the added goat's milk. We did find out recently (by accident) that we've been able to stop his medications all together after adding in the goat's milk with probiotics. I went out of town for a week and left Boris at home and someone forgot to give him his daily meds for a few days. At first I was extremely upset but then I realized that he was actually doing ok and seemed to have a little more energy. I still have his meds on hand in case he has a flare but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that he won't need them anytime soon.


That's awesome!!!

My other three can eat ANYTHING!!! LOL! But I feed the rest of them Nom Nom.


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## BocaVista (11 mo ago)

krandall said:


> NOW comes the part I feel worst about. I am quite convinced that I caused his problems by over-vaccinating him as a puppy. He was my first dog, and I THOUGHT I was doing the right thing by allowing my local vet to stick him with every vaccine made. It makes me want to cry now. I also own his half sister, and know many of his close relatives. He is the ONLY one I know of with these problems, but also the only one who was over-vaccinated. His sister has a stomach like cast iron.
> 
> I am sure that not every dog with IBD was over-vaccinated, but most of the ones that I know personally, when we all compare stories... we find out that most have that in common. So those of you with puppies reading this... PLEASE don't do it!!! By all means, vaccinate your puppies and keep them safe, but do not OVER vaccinate!


Karen,

I agree with everything you said, but I wanted to make sure I commented on one thing you mentioned. I, too, am doing a lot of looking back at what we did for our Lotus who lived to be nearly 14. She was my first dog, and I will always love her and cherish all the years she made our family complete. But, like you, I know now that I would have done things differently had I had the knowledge back then. I didn't. And I, too, feel bad about it and want to cry right now (in fact, I am...). What I do know is that we loved the daylights out of Lotus and gave her a great home and wonderful experiences. And, when she was diagnosed with either IBD or Lymphoma (two vets made two different diagnoses), we managed the situation as best as anyone could. Both vets later mentioned that they wished other fur parents would have been so diligent with the reporting of symptoms, managing food, and overall care.

What is in the past is behind us. Now we are on to other dogs (for us, just one, but for you a lot of them). Part of the legacy of our prior Havanese is that we have learned from our past and are applying that learning to our current (and future) Havanese. That is all that anyone can ask for. And while I have never met you in person, I can tell that you are a TERRIFIC provider to your dogs, based on your knowledgeable comments and videos .

For this same reason, I am learning as much as I can about vaccinations, foods, flea / tick preventions, heart worm meds, etc. And with the help provided by this forum, I am (hopefully) making wise decisions.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

BocaVista said:


> Karen,
> 
> I agree with everything you said, but I wanted to make sure I commented on one thing you mentioned...


Awww, you are VERY sweet, and your kind words bring a tear to my eye. I love my special boy very, very much, and I do know that I have always done everything I THOUGHT was best for him, and will continue to do that for him as long as we have him. (which I HOPE is a lot longer! 💕) I do believe we do the best we can and when we know better we do better!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

BocaVista said:


> Karen,
> 
> I agree with everything you said, but I wanted to make sure I commented on one thing you mentioned. I, too, am doing a lot of looking back at what we did for our Lotus who lived to be nearly 14. She was my first dog, and I will always love her and cherish all the years she made our family complete. But, like you, I know now that I would have done things differently had I had the knowledge back then. I didn't. And I, too, feel bad about it and want to cry right now (in fact, I am...). What I do know is that we loved the daylights out of Lotus and gave her a great home and wonderful experiences. And, when she was diagnosed with either IBD or Lymphoma (two vets made two different diagnoses), we managed the situation as best as anyone could. Both vets later mentioned that they wished other fur parents would have been so diligent with the reporting of symptoms, managing food, and overall care.
> 
> ...


There are many things I would do differently if I had it to do over. It seems there is always one more thing to add to the list. The most recent is how restrictive harnesses can damage shoulders. I knew about protecting the trachea but had no idea about shoulder damage.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> There are many things I would do differently if I had it to do over. It seems there is always one more thing to add to the list. The most recent is how restrictive harnesses can damage shoulders. I knew about protecting the trachea but had no idea about shoulder damage.


I agree! I used "Easywalk" harnesses fro a long time, thinking they were great. It wasn't until we got Panda, and there was NO WAY to get one to fit her properly that I had to look into something different. In the process of finding something new for her, I learned more about the problem with shoulder strain from that kind of harness and switched ALL of them to Petsafe harnesses.

I also made a REAL concerted effort to make sure theyALL walked on a loose leash, so that none of them pull on whatever equipment they are walking on. That is probably the most important thing of all.


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## mlg (Feb 23, 2020)

krandall said:


> Kodi can't handle ANY dairy... even goats milk, and we tried THK, but because they use "Seasonal fresh vegetables", we couldn't stick with it... too many variables in the diet for him. We used "Balance It" and I cooked for him for a while, but then I found that he could tolerate Nature's Variety Limited Ingredient food. And while I love him dearly, I don't really love cooking for the HUMANS, let alone the dogs! So he gets that! LOL!


*Thanks for sharing your experiences.
What is THK? I looked up Nature's Variety and it looks very good. But isn't raw protein harder for them to digest? Does this provide a high level of fiber? I ask because the Hills Biome does have a lot of fiber and a relatively low percentage of protein. I don't think well of Hills but I have to pay attention because Ellie feels much better.

My vet said it's very important that Ellie have a low percentage of protein and I don't understand why.
I'm with you about not cooking  *


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## mlg (Feb 23, 2020)

mudpuppymama said:


> There are many things I would do differently if I had it to do over. It seems there is always one more thing to add to the list. The most recent is how restrictive harnesses can damage shoulders. I knew about protecting the trachea but had no idea about shoulder damage.


*A few years ago I found the Curli Harness on Amazon. It's a step in with extremely good closures. It doesn't pull and Ellie and I have been much more comfortable on a leash. They also seem to last forever. 








Amazon.com : Curli Vest Harness Air-Mesh Dog Harness Pet Vest No-Pull Step-in Harness with Padded Black S : Pet Supplies


Amazon.com : Curli Vest Harness Air-Mesh Dog Harness Pet Vest No-Pull Step-in Harness with Padded Black S : Pet Supplies



www.amazon.com




*


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mlg said:


> *Thanks for sharing your experiences.
> What is THK? I looked up Nature's Variety and it looks very good. But isn't raw protein harder for them to digest? Does this provide a high level of fiber? I ask because the Hills Biome does have a lot of fiber and a relatively low percentage of protein. I don't think well of Hills but I have to pay attention because Ellie feels much better.
> 
> My vet said it's very important that Ellie have a low percentage of protein and I don't understand why.
> I'm with you about not cooking  *


Sorry! "THK" is short hand for The Honest Kitchen. Which is a freeze dried complete food.Nature's Variety does have a frozen raw line of food, but that's not the limited ingredient stuff. The limited ingredient ones are canned and kibble. He gets kibble for breakfast and canned for dinner. We are using the lamb one now. He started on turkey, then switched to duck, and now is on lamb, as he has become sensitized to different proteins. 

I don't know whether raw would be harder to digest or not... I can't feed raw personally because I have a compromised immune system, and can't have hairy faced dogs eating raw meat then putting their faces all over me. 

I have NEVER been told by ANY of the vets that I've worked with that Kodi needed to be on either a big fiber food or a low protein food. So I'm not sure what either of those would be about. I don't even really look at that, so I can't tell you. I CAN tell you that if that is a consideration, The Honest Kitchen s WAY high fiber. One of the reasons I don't like it is that it makes my dogs have ENORMOUS poops because of the mass of vegetable and grain matter that dogs just can't digest in it. There are a bunch of different recipes, so maybe you want to look at those, even though they don't work for Kodi. Every dog with IBD is different! 

And you are right, if Hills is what works, then that may be what you need to use. I have a friend with a 3 year old Leonberger who has IBD. In her case, it HAS ben confirmed with a biopsy. The ONLY thing that poor dog can tolerate is that horrible hydrolysed protein stuff. NO ONE in their right mind would WANT their dog living on that... but it is the ONLY thing they have been able to feed her that keeps her from blow-out diarrhea, vomitting and pain. You sometimes just have to do what you have to do with these dogs.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mlg said:


> *A few years ago I found the Curli Harness on Amazon. It's a step in with extremely good closures. It doesn't pull and Ellie and I have been much more comfortable on a leash. They also seem to last forever.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mesh harnesses just cause too much matting on my dogs in coat.


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## mlg (Feb 23, 2020)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Have you looked into a delivery service for meals? There are both raw and fresh ingredient plans depending on the company. I believe most of them can manage special nutritional needs.
> 
> I think you did the right thing by not assuming the issues were related to covid, and it sounds like the diet changes are an issue, so hopefully resolving that will help with the diagnosis. I personally think it’s okay to accommodate a little grumpiness from dogs as they get older to a degree, but it’s good you’re making sure to resolve the underlying problem. There are several other members with a dogs with IBD so maybe they can make suggestions on what to explore with your vet. Sundance doesn’t have IBD but he does have a sensitive, sort of reactive stomach. For a long time it was hard to tell if it made a difference, but I’m certain now that a probiotic helps. Is there a veterinary nutritionist you could consult? The nutritionist that a lot of forum members used years ago used to be able to make recommendations that optimized or met the same requirements as prescription diets. Members have been successful in feeding several different diets to their IBD dogs, but sometimes they need to stabilize on the prescription diet first, or the prescription diet is what works best, and that’s okay. Sometimes it’s clear the diet is the problem and it seems relatively common for vets to sort of accept minimal improvement, so don’t be afraid to keep bringing it up or get a second opinion.
> 
> In the meantime, maybe she would benefit from a different kind of structured, stimulating social activity than what she had before. A lot of people have experienced life changes during covid having an affect on their dogs, and at the very least it’s probably a piece of the puzzle. If other owners from your previous group have also had changes in their lives, maybe the group could be reorganized or reimagined a little to meet different needs. Ellie might respond better to a playgroup with the same frequency but a smaller group, or for a shorter length of time, or a group with or without puppies.


*Now that she's feeling a bit better I've been arranging visits with neighbors who also have dogs wanting a bit more activity. They tend to "parallel play" but she gets to check out other toys and every corner of a new house. She's always been a people dog rather than a dog/dog and hopefully there will be more people in our life in not too long.

I have looked at the delivery services and would much rather feed her their food than any canned diet. I don't know which ones are reliable and honest. And now...I don't know what kinds of meals I should choose. Is there a site that evaluates these programs? Or better yet, have you tried any and what experiences have you had?*


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## mlg (Feb 23, 2020)

krandall said:


> Sorry! "THK" is short hand for The Honest Kitchen. Which is a freeze dried complete food.Nature's Variety does have a frozen raw line of food, but that's not the limited ingredient stuff. The limited ingredient ones are canned and kibble. He gets kibble for breakfast and canned for dinner. We are using the lamb one now. He started on turkey, then switched to duck, and now is on lamb, as he has become sensitized to different proteins.
> 
> I don't know whether raw would be harder to digest or not... I can't feed raw personally because I have a compromised immune system, and can't have hairy faced dogs eating raw meat then putting their faces all over me.
> 
> ...


*Thanks - I now have some information about what food(s) I might try if and when I stray from Hills. *


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## Johanna (11 mo ago)

mlg said:


> *Thanks for sharing your experiences.
> What is THK? I looked up Nature's Variety and it looks very good. But isn't raw protein harder for them to digest? Does this provide a high level of fiber? I ask because the Hills Biome does have a lot of fiber and a relatively low percentage of protein. I don't think well of Hills but I have to pay attention because Ellie feels much better.
> 
> My vet said it's very important that Ellie have a low percentage of protein and I don't understand why.
> I'm with you about not cooking  *


THK is just short for The Honest Kitchen which is a brand of dog food and also makes the goat's milk supplement I was talking about. As far as food goes, I'll let others weigh in but my experience was just finding a food that had the right balance of ingredients and nutrition that worked for my dog. I researched myself into a new level of crazy trying to figure things out with protein, fat, fiber, etc. Finally, when I was at my wit's end I ended up taking to the owner of a local pet feed store that specializes in high end quality foods about it. I was about to buy yet another food I thought might work and he talked me into trying the NutriSource. He loaded me up with enough sample bags to help me transition and feed for a couple of weeks and it turned out to be the magic food that worked. We still needed meds to control problems. The limited ingredient food Karen mentioned is also very good for many issues. I have many friends in rescue that use it for various allergy/skin and digestive problems.


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## mlg (Feb 23, 2020)

Johanna said:


> Tylosin powder is definitely helpful and can be used long term. I recently started using Honest Kitchen's instant goats milk with added probiotics and it's made a difference for my boy with lifelong digestive problems. I mix with it bottled water as directed and pour a little over all of my dogs food daily. Goat's milk is known to be very beneficial to dogs with IBD. It has many other health benefits as well.


*A good thing to know about for a dog. We gave my extremely colicky daughter a home-made formula using goats milk and it was the only thing she could keep down and digest for several months.*


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

mlg said:


> *A few years ago I found the Curli Harness on Amazon. It's a step in with extremely good closures. It doesn't pull and Ellie and I have been much more comfortable on a leash. They also seem to last forever.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you. I am always open to harness suggestions. I finally found the harness that is perfect for my yorkie. It is by The Trendy Whippet. He has a lipoma on the shoulder and this harness hits him just right and it is super soft. I also bought one for Mia although I think my favorite for her is the Blue 9 Balance harness. But good to have new harness ideas in my back pocket.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Johanna said:


> THK is just short for The Honest Kitchen which is a brand of dog food and also makes the goat's milk supplement I was talking about. As far as food goes, I'll let others weigh in but my experience was just finding a food that had the right balance of ingredients and nutrition that worked for my dog. I researched myself into a new level of crazy trying to figure things out with protein, fat, fiber, etc. Finally, when I was at my wit's end I ended up taking to the owner of a local pet feed store that specializes in high end quality foods about it. I was about to buy yet another food I thought might work and he talked me into trying the NutriSource. He loaded me up with enough sample bags to help me transition and feed for a couple of weeks and it turned out to be the magic food that worked. We still needed meds to control problems. The limited ingredient food Karen mentioned is also very good for many issues. I have many friends in rescue that use it for various allergy/skin and digestive problems.


Although Mia does not have IBD it did take me awhile to find something that worked for her. She does better without grains, legumes and veggies or else we wind up with tons of large poop multiple times per day which makes me wonder if she is getting anything out of the food. That is what lead me to raw food because that is the only way I could avoid these ingredients. I started with Natures Variety raw and then eventually made my own.


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## mlg (Feb 23, 2020)

Sheri said:


> I absolutely agree with Krandall, and we followed similar routes as she and Kodi did, though Tucker was even harder to manage and faced difficult balancing for all of his life. He was on the meds and supplements that Karen uses for Kodi, (plus several others,) and it was a constant, daily effort to keep him as well as possible.
> 
> I also believe that his was caused by over vaccinating from following the vets' insistence of giving every vaccine possible, at the soonest possible times, even though I finally figured out (by myself and research,) by the time he was a little more than 1 year old, that the vaccines were the issue that permanently damaged his immune system. By the time he was 12 he could not tolerate chicken, beef, lamb, salmon, and duck; rabbit and kangaroo were starting to be problematic.
> 
> ...


*Thanks - that's a very valuable resource right now. Many suggestions have been very helpful. Suggestions I received from the forum have made it clear that I need to find a nutritionally minded vet, "wholistic", willing to take the time to help me help Ellie.
I live in a part of Manhattan where it often seems there are more dogs than people. We have many vets but most are in a big hurry and sell the same prescription foods etc. However, this is a very large community and I will look for someone who will check her B12 levels and many other possibilities. I first brought Ellie to my vet in 2020 saying something is wrong. They did standard bloods, found nothing and suggested she lose a pound or two. This happened again when she had her yearly exam in 2021. IF I had been told they could do an ultrasound which is non-invasive, I would have jumped at the suggestion. And I suspect they would have found the IBD when it was first starting. Ellie wouldn't have been in distress for two years and I wouldn't have constantly feared she was about to pass away. 

If anyone on the board knows of a nutritionist/vet I could consult over Zoom I'd appreciate the information. Or if by chance, you know of someone in Manhattan, please pass along the information.*


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## mlg (Feb 23, 2020)

krandall said:


> IBD _is_ a real disease, but it can only be definitively DX'd with an intestinal biopsy. Many dog owners are reluctant to do that if they can get the symptoms under control with medical management. Kodi is one of those dogs.
> 
> I also do not agree that probiotics do not help in the presence of antibiotics. If this were the case, humans would not be told to start taking probiotics when they need to take antibiotics to prevent diarrhea. (and it works) Obviously you DO want to avoid antibiotics as much as possible, and use the mildest antibiotics possible if you HAVE to use them, but sometimes they re necessary, depending on the dog and the situation.
> 
> ...


*Thank you so much for sharing your clearly difficult experiences. It does indeed sound like you made the choices you thought were best - none of us can realistically expect more of ourselves.

Can you tell me which soil based probiotic you're using and what commercial limited ingredient canned food has been successful? I read the labels, can narrow down the choices, but don't know enough to find the most likely candidate. I realize I have to try things and find what works for Ellie. But I'd love some places to start.

Thanks again.*


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mlg said:


> *Now that she's feeling a bit better I've been arranging visits with neighbors who also have dogs wanting a bit more activity. They tend to "parallel play" but she gets to check out other toys and every corner of a new house. She's always been a people dog rather than a dog/dog and hopefully there will be more people in our life in not too long.
> 
> I have looked at the delivery services and would much rather feed her their food than any canned diet. I don't know which ones are reliable and honest. And now...I don't know what kinds of meals I should choose. Is there a site that evaluates these programs? Or better yet, have you tried any and what experiences have you had?*


I feed Nom Nom. They have a veterinary nutritionist on staff, and offer 4 different protein based recipies. The food comes frozen, in serving sized packages for each dog. They offer chicken, turkey, beef and pork. We get chicken turkey and pork. The reason I don’t get the beef recipe is that that one also contains peas, and I do not feed legumes to my young and/or breeding dogs due to the phytoestrogens. Since it is only a small quantity, this is is probably not an issue for an adult, non-breeding dog, however.

The food, when you defrost and open it, looks and smells like a casserole that you’d feed to humans. You can see the pieces of meat, veggies, rice, sweet potato, or whatever is in that particular recipe. (The recipe is listed on each package) My dogs LOVE it! 

The ONLY “problem” for us, and it probably wouldn’t be an issue for the owner of a single dog, is that to save shipping costs and environmental impact, (both things that I applaud) they ship every other month. That means, that for us, feeding several dogs, we needed to buy a seoarate, small, chest type freezer to hold the food. But we found one for about $175 at Lowes, and the electrical costs for running it for a year, are just $25. So it is very efficient. We move about a week’s worth of meals to the upstairs freezer at a time, and defrost them in the refrigerator a day or two ahead.

There actually was a review I read a while ago about the major brands, but I can’t remember where. I do remember that the two that were the most highly rated were The Farmer’s Dog and Nom Nom. Nom Nom was less expensive, but they dinged it for being “less convenient” because the “tear open packages” are almost impossible to tear open. THAT is true! I don’t even try! I just use kitchen scissors and cut the pouches open! But for the lower cost compared the The Farmer’s Dog, if THAT is the only difference, I can live with it!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mlg said:


> *A good thing to know about for a dog. We gave my extremely colicky daughter a home-made formula using goats milk and it was the only thing she could keep down and digest for several months.*


A home made formula based on goats milk saved my puppies when my mama dog didn’t get her milk in after an emergency C-section! I also use it for weaning pups. So I am a fan for dogs who can tolerate it!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mlg said:


> *Thank you so much for sharing your clearly difficult experiences. It does indeed sound like you made the choices you thought were best - none of us can realistically expect more of ourselves.
> 
> Can you tell me which soil based probiotic you're using and what commercial limited ingredient canned food has been successful? I read the labels, can narrow down the choices, but don't know enough to find the most likely candidate. I realize I have to try things and find what works for Ellie. But I'd love some places to start.
> 
> Thanks again.*


 The food is Nature’s Variety Limited Ingredient Lamb (but it comes in a number of different proteins)

These are the soil based probiotics I use. SOMETIMES I can get them on Amazon, sometimes I have to get them directly from the company. They are VERY expensive!:



https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B005PJNPGW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1



Because they do not containy the digestive enzymes that my regular (whey based) probiotics included, my vet also added Pancrea Powder, which is a digestive enzyme to his routine. But I don’t have a brand, or anything for that, I get that directly from the vet. (Actually, I just looked it up, and these ARE available on line! I don’t know which brand my vet uses)


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

mlg said:


> *Thanks - that's a very valuable resource right now. Many suggestions have been very helpful. Suggestions I received from the forum have made it clear that I need to find a nutritionally minded vet, "wholistic", willing to take the time to help me help Ellie.
> I live in a part of Manhattan where it often seems there are more dogs than people. We have many vets but most are in a big hurry and sell the same prescription foods etc. However, this is a very large community and I will look for someone who will check her B12 levels and many other possibilities. I first brought Ellie to my vet in 2020 saying something is wrong. They did standard bloods, found nothing and suggested she lose a pound or two. This happened again when she had her yearly exam in 2021. IF I had been told they could do an ultrasound which is non-invasive, I would have jumped at the suggestion. And I suspect they would have found the IBD when it was first starting. Ellie wouldn't have been in distress for two years and I wouldn't have constantly feared she was about to pass away.
> 
> If anyone on the board knows of a nutritionist/vet I could consult over Zoom I'd appreciate the information. Or if by chance, you know of someone in Manhattan, please pass along the information.*


I am not sure if you want to feed a raw homemade diet, however there are a couple of nutritionists online that sound really good. They will formulate a recipe that will meet or exceed NRC standards. Note that most commercial foods are formulated to meet AAFCO standards which is a much lower standard than the NRC. I have not used these nutritionists myself but I read many of their articles and I would feel confident using them based upon what I have read. I am not sure if they do cooked diets. You mentioned you do not want to cook for your dog. With raw, there is no cooking. It takes me 10-15 minutes per day to prepare food for two dogs. Most of the effort is in acquiring the ingredients which is much easier now because there are more raw food suppliers.






Raw Feeding Services







perfectlyrawsome.com












Custom Services


ATTENTION!! New Year's SALE: $23 off your entire adult custom formulation purchase with code: 23OFF at checkout valid through 1/10/23 Custom formulation is open, with an approximate 1-week...



www.rawpetsrule.com


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## mlg (Feb 23, 2020)

krandall said:


> I feed Nom Nom. They have a veterinary nutritionist on staff, and offer 4 different protein based recipies. The food comes frozen, in serving sized packages for each dog. They offer chicken, turkey, beef and pork. We get chicken turkey and pork. The reason I don’t get the beef recipe is that that one also contains peas, and I do not feed legumes to my young and/or breeding dogs due to the phytoestrogens. Since it is only a small quantity, this is is probably not an issue for an adult, non-breeding dog, however.
> 
> The food, when you defrost and open it, looks and smells like a casserole that you’d feed to humans. You can see the pieces of meat, veggies, rice, sweet potato, or whatever is in that particular recipe. (The recipe is listed on each package) My dogs LOVE it!
> 
> ...


*Thanks so much. I'm saving the info in your post and it makes me feel more confident about what I can try first.*


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## mlg (Feb 23, 2020)

krandall said:


> The food is Nature’s Variety Limited Ingredient Lamb (but it comes in a number of different proteins)
> 
> These are the soil based probiotics I use. SOMETIMES I can get them on Amazon, sometimes I have to get them directly from the company. They are VERY expensive!:
> 
> ...


*Thanks so much. I'll keep the information and see how she's doing. Will slowly introduce new things and wait to see how she tolerates them.*


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mlg said:


> *Thanks so much. I'll keep the information and see how she's doing. Will slowly introduce new things and wait to see how she tolerates them.*


I would definitely add the probiotics and enzymes sooner rather than later, no matter what food you choose. My vet suggests them for ALL of my dogs, just because they have busy, performance lives. If she doesn't have a serious problem with dairy, you DON'T need the expensive soil based probiotics! These are the ones we use for all the others, and we actually used them for years for Kodi too, before he started having break-though problems and we had to switch. This is an excellent product, approved by my vet, and contains BOTH the probiotics AND digestive enzymes:









Amazon.com : Dogzymes Probiotic Max -10 Billion CFU's Probiotics, Prebiotics, Digestive Enzymes (1 Pound) : Pet Supplements And Vitamins : Pet Supplies


Amazon.com : Dogzymes Probiotic Max -10 Billion CFU's Probiotics, Prebiotics, Digestive Enzymes (1 Pound) : Pet Supplements And Vitamins : Pet Supplies



smile.amazon.com





Here is another one that they have added to their line, though, that you can get in a smaller container to try, and does have the minimum 500 CFU that my vet says is important:









Amazon.com: Dogzymes Probiotic Daily Balance - Supplies Nutritional Support and Live microorganisms for intestinal Well-Being as Well as enzymes for Proper Digestion. (8 Ounce) : Health & Household


Buy Dogzymes Probiotic Daily Balance - Supplies Nutritional Support and Live microorganisms for intestinal Well-Being as Well as enzymes for Proper Digestion. (8 Ounce) on Amazon.com ✓ FREE SHIPPING on qualified orders



smile.amazon.com





I would think that either of these would help her get more benefit out of whatever you feed her, just because she is digesting them better.

Incidentally, MPM, if you re reading this, I wonder whether, when you tried probiotics and had trouble with them, if you were using one with a digestive enzyme added. I think this may be an important piece to making them actually work. And if you aren't working with a vet trained in this stuff, they may not know that.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> I would definitely add the probiotics and enzymes sooner rather than later, no matter what food you choose. My vet suggests them for ALL of my dogs, just because they have busy, performance lives. If she doesn't have a serious problem with dairy, you DON'T need the expensive soil based probiotics! These are the ones we use for all the others, and we actually used them for years for Kodi too, before he started having break-though problems and we had to switch. This is an excellent product, approved by my vet, and contains BOTH the probiotics AND digestive enzymes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It has been awhile since I first tried probiotics on my dogs. I do not even recall the brand, however it did contain some prebiotics and I read some articles that say that some prebiotics can be problematic. It did not contain digestive enzymes.

That was a couple years ago. No probiotics since then and dogs have been perfectly fine digestive wise.

Fast forward…

Recently, my yorkie (for the first time in his 13 year life) took some antibiotics. He also had a dental. Double drug whammy. I was wondering if I should give him a probiotic so I actually purchased the expensive soil based probiotic you are using for Kodi to have on hand in case he started having some issues. Note that this is a dog who has had maybe 5 loose stools in his entire life and has only thrown up a couple times. Anyway, he was fine for a couple weeks and then had a few digestive issues that is so unlike him. I did start him on the probiotic which actually made matters worse it seemed. Around this same time I did feed some new kind of premade commercial raw and wondered if that could be the issue, although Mia was fine with it. Always bad when there is more than one variable!!! Anyway, I am now making their food completely from scratch again and stopped the premade raw. I also stopped the probiotic trying to eliminate variables and see what I could do with diet only. I do not feed digestive enzymes because I feed raw pork pancreas a few times a week which is a great natural source of enzymes. They also get lots of enzymes from their food since it is raw. It had been a month since his last digestive upset and he is doing great. I am not saying that the probiotic caused problems. I really do not know. However, I wanted to see what I could do with diet only. I also think that just because the probiotic seemed to make things worse, that is not always a bad thing. Sometimes adjusting to something new, even if it is good, can cause initial upset. I may try the probiotic again in the future, however currently things are good and I a scared to try something new.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

mlg said:


> *Now that she's feeling a bit better I've been arranging visits with neighbors who also have dogs wanting a bit more activity. They tend to "parallel play" but she gets to check out other toys and every corner of a new house. She's always been a people dog rather than a dog/dog and hopefully there will be more people in our life in not too long.
> 
> I have looked at the delivery services and would much rather feed her their food than any canned diet. I don't know which ones are reliable and honest. And now...I don't know what kinds of meals I should choose. Is there a site that evaluates these programs? Or better yet, have you tried any and what experiences have you had?*


I might have misunderstood, thinking the diet issues have mostly resolved since the diagnosis but that you are still seeing some changes in her personality that may or may not be related to her age or being at home. Although Sundance does enjoy playing with other dogs, I don’t really see social/playgroups as actually being about playing with other dogs. I also notice a difference since Sundance has been home so much. I think it’s more about the outing of it, and the stimulation, the sniffing at the neighbor’s house, like you mentioned. Being part of a dog group just means that it’s easier and more enjoyable for the owner. But if that’s not possible with your current circumstances, maybe some other kind outing aside from a typical walk would help her. Do you notice it helps when she visits the neighbors? I don’t mean to be insensitive to you living in a high density population - it’s easier for me to switch up our routine when I can take Sundance many places with few people within a mile of my house. I’ve been trying to visit my mom more and I take him with me, and I think it’s helping. I’m sure he’d improve even more if I could take him to different people’s houses but we don’t have enough friends  

I haven’t used a delivery service because I feel like it’s too far out of my budget for 2 dogs, and I do want another Havanese. I love our famiiy’s meal delivery service so I can’t imagine I wouldn’t like it for Sundance. Maybe when my kids are done with college, lol. I think there are a lot of really good options out there for food that just weren’t available 10 years ago, and more options means a better chance of finding something that works for you. I did notice with Sundance that when I switched food very gradually, it was pretty clear if the food wasn’t going to work out before it created a horrific diarrhea disaster, but he doesn’t have IBD, just a weird stomach.


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## mlg (Feb 23, 2020)

krandall said:


> Sorry! "THK" is short hand for The Honest Kitchen. Which is a freeze dried complete food.Nature's Variety does have a frozen raw line of food, but that's not the limited ingredient stuff. The limited ingredient ones are canned and kibble. He gets kibble for breakfast and canned for dinner. We are using the lamb one now. He started on turkey, then switched to duck, and now is on lamb, as he has become sensitized to different proteins.
> 
> I don't know whether raw would be harder to digest or not... I can't feed raw personally because I have a compromised immune system, and can't have hairy faced dogs eating raw meat then putting their faces all over me.
> 
> ...


 "I have NEVER been told by ANY of the vets that I've worked with that Kodi needed to be on either a big fiber food or a low protein food."
I discussed this with the vet and she clarified: she said Ellie can have more protein, BUT it has to be the same protein that's in her food. She cannot have a variety of proteins. Given that she's now eating Hills Biome I just cooked some organic chicken and added it to her dinner. She was VERY happy.


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## mlg (Feb 23, 2020)

krandall said:


> I would definitely add the probiotics and enzymes sooner rather than later, no matter what food you choose. My vet suggests them for ALL of my dogs, just because they have busy, performance lives. If she doesn't have a serious problem with dairy, you DON'T need the expensive soil based probiotics! These are the ones we use for all the others, and we actually used them for years for Kodi too, before he started having break-though problems and we had to switch. This is an excellent product, approved by my vet, and contains BOTH the probiotics AND digestive enzymes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for this recommendation. I'd like to try the less expensive one first but I notice it hasn't received the same quality of reviews. Have you tried the Probiotic Daily Balance?

However, I have a concern about using anything: I tried adding the Mercola Probiotic to the Biome and her stools were looser, apparently from that. I tried 3 or 4 different probiotics before Ellie was diagnosed and the Mercola was by far the most effective. OTH, I myself take lots of supplements and can't imagine just giving her Biome without some "help".

Thoughts?


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## mlg (Feb 23, 2020)

mlg said:


> Ellie has always been a healthy dog with a great interest in anything that might be food. For the first 6 or so years of her life she ate a raw diet with a little kibble and table scraps of all kinds. The only issue she/I faced was that her teeth were bad and she bullied me into not taking as good care of them as I now would. Therefore at 13 she has lost approx 2/3 of her teeth.
> 
> At the start of the pandemic I noticed Ellie was sleeping a lot, kind of lethargic and a bit grumpy. She did experience big changes in that she no longer went to playgroup 3 afternoons a week. I am a psychotherapist and whenever she was home she had a bed in my office. She had trained all my patients to pet her before saying hello to me  Suddenly no one came to my office and I was glued to my computer screen for hours. But Ellie has always been resilient and I wasn't comfortable attributing a rather sudden energy/personality change to covid or to her suddenly becoming "old".
> 
> ...


UPDATE ON ELLIE and her IBD 5.20
Ellie is doing very well on the Hills Biome. I introduced their Biome kibble as a snack or a little side dish and this didn't cause any problem. I've given her a tbsp of organic sweet potato, an occasional cooked asparagus stalk, a few pieces of cooked broccoli and all has been fine. BUT when I gave her a few small bites of a pork chop or one scallop or another protein, stools were definitely looser. Therefore I'm adhering to the recommendations to stay with one protein only. Since the Biome is primarily chicken I cooked some organic chicken and gave her a few small pieces tonight - she seems happy but I'll know after she poops.

I tried adding the Mercola probiotic which had been helpful before. A half dose produced a looser stool so I've stopped for now. I'm planning to purchase the DogZymes Probiotic Max which also has enzymes and was recommended to me here.

I'm thinking that if she tolerates the Biome plus organic cooked chicken that I add and some cooked vegetables maybe I could try Chicken Nom Nom? Would waiting another month be a reasonable amount of time to branch out to Nom Nom?

BTW, she was almost 19 lbs and is now 18 lbs. I'm assuming this is because she is much more active and awake. I will watch though to make sure she doesn't continue to lose. 

Thank you all for so much useful information and for sharing your stories which have comforted me. If Ellie could type I know she'd thank you as well


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mlg said:


> Thanks for this recommendation. I'd like to try the less expensive one first but I notice it hasn't received the same quality of reviews. Have you tried the Probiotic Daily Balance?
> 
> However, I have a concern about using anything: I tried adding the Mercola Probiotic to the Biome and her stools were looser, apparently from that. I tried 3 or 4 different probiotics before Ellie was diagnosed and the Mercola was by far the most effective. OTH, I myself take lots of supplements and can't imagine just giving her Biome without some "help".
> 
> Thoughts?


The daily Balance has only half the number of bacillus as the one I use. My vet recommended the one I use. I am SURE you don’t need the expensive soil based one unless your dog has a really severe dairy allergy.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I use Fortiflora, which is what my vet initially recommended. It’s not super cheap, but I do know the strains in it have been specifically studied on several types of digestive issues in dogs, and it has the recommended amounts, which is why he recommends it. I tried less expensive ones that were okay but over time I noticed FortiFlora seemed to work best. It’s more expensive on Amazon, my vet sells it for slightly less, but it used to be the opposite. i think there are specific strains recommended for IBD, plus the ingredients to consider as Karen mentioned, so your vet might also have a recommendation.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> It’s more expensive on Amazon, my vet sells it for slightly less, but it used to be the opposite.


I’ve found you need to be very careful about that pretty much universally. At times a product will be cheaper on Amazon, and the next time it will be more expensive. Sometimes the convenience makes it worth it anyway, if it’s not a big difference, or you need it in a hurry, but it pays to check!


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## mlg (Feb 23, 2020)

krandall said:


> The daily Balance has only half the number of bacillus as the one I use. My vet recommended the one I use. I am SURE you don’t need the expensive soil based one unless your dog has a really severe dairy allergy.


 Thanks. I was on the Amazon site and they only had a one pound jar which even assuming it was helpful, would last close to a year and was over $50. I went to the company site, naturesfarmacy, and found a smaller size of Probiotic Max for less money, which I ordered. With things like this, where freshness and proper temperature control are important, I actually prefer purchasing from the company when possible so it's a win!
Thanks for clarifying the difference - clearly significant.


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