# Dilemma about a puppy



## Babilonia (Jun 2, 2021)

So... I finally decided to get a Havanese puppy and I literally fell in love with a little black and white boy but I have a huge dilemma.

The puppy is not from a certified breeder, but both his parents have all the papers and the owner wanted one litter and then they will be spayed/neutered. 

The main problem is that the puppies are trained to do their business on pads. They literally never peed outside on the grass and they are 11 weeks old. I really don't want to use pads in the future, and I am worried if I will be able to break that habit??

Any advice?


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Babilonia said:


> So... I finally decided to get a Havanese puppy and I literally fell in love with a little black and white boy but I have a huge dilemma.
> 
> The puppy is not from a certified breeder, but both his parents have all the papers and the owner wanted one litter and then they will be spayed/neutered.
> 
> ...


I’m not sure what a “certified breeder” is. We do not have that here in the US. As far as puppies started on pee pads, there is NOTHING unusual at all! It would be UNUSUAL for a breeder to start outdoor potty training with a litter of toy breed dogs. That is the job of the for ever family, and it is not a “bad habit” for the puppy to use pee pads. It is a “bad habit” if the puppies are not trained to use ANY sort of potty, and are peeing and pooping where ever they want. Even THEN, at that age, they can still be potty trained, it would just be harder. But you can CERTAINLY potty train a puppy that has been trained to pee pads for the first 11 weeks!

As to the quality of the BREEDER, as I said, we don’t have any kind of “breeder certification” here in the US, so you’d have to tell us more about the breeder for us to know if they are doing things right. Being a first time breeder doesn’t necessarily mean they are NOT doing things right. But it doesn‘t mean they are, either!


----------



## Babilonia (Jun 2, 2021)

krandall said:


> I’m not sure what a “certified breeder” is. We do not have that here in the US. As far as puppies started on pee pads, there is NOTHING unusual at all! It would be UNUSUAL for a breeder to start outdoor potty training with a litter of toy breed dogs. That is the job of the for ever family, and it is not a “bad habit” for the puppy to use pee pads. It is a “bad habit” if the puppies are not trained to use ANY sort of potty, and are peeing and pooping where ever they want. Even THEN, at that age, they can still be potty trained, it would just be harder. But you can CERTAINLY potty train a puppy that has been trained to pee pads for the first 11 weeks!
> 
> As to the quality of the BREEDER, as I said, we don’t have any kind of “breeder certification” here in the US, so you’d have to tell us more about the breeder for us to know if they are doing things right. Being a first time breeder doesn’t necessarily mean they are NOT doing things right. But it doesn‘t mean they are, either!


Thank you for your reply!
I am aware that they cannot pee on the real grass when they are very little, but I know that most breeders are using the potty that resembles the grass (or at least a litter box). I am not sure how it is called in English, but I know it looks like fake grass.
I never had a dog and I am not sure if I will be able to break that habit... I live in a house with a yard, and I would really prefer if the dog is doing his business outside... I already have litter boxes for cats  I read many comments about how hard is to train your puppy to go outside, when they got used to using regular paper pads...


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Babilonia said:


> Thank you for your reply!
> I am aware that they cannot pee on the real grass when they are very little, but I know that most breeders are using the potty that resembles the grass (or at least a litter box). I am not sure how it is called in English, but I know it looks like fake grass.
> I never had a dog and I am not sure if I will be able to break that habit... I live in a house with a yard, and I would really prefer if the dog is doing his business outside... I already have litter boxes for cats  I read many comments about how hard is to train your puppy to go outside, when they got used to using regular paper pads...


Fake grass is HORRIBLE!!! It stinks to high heavens, and, believe me, NO dog or puppy thinks for one second that it has anythingmore to do with real grass than pee pads do. And whether it is a box or a pad doesn’t really make a difference either. An indoor potty is an indoorpotty. I do not like CLOTH pee pads, because puppies DO confuse those with throw rugs. But not paper ones.

The point of potty training, indoors or out, is to teach the puppy where it is OK to go and where they are NOT supposed to go. It is not hard, it is just time consuming. PEOPLE get it wrong, but based on the limited amount of impnformation you have given us so far, these puppies should be no harder to train than any others. They are not cats and do not use cat litter boxes. They are not the same, nor are training methods the same. If you would have a problem training this puppy, you are probably not ready to potty train any puppy.

OTOH we have a tried and tru method on the forum for potty training puppes and have helped MANY people, brand new to dogs, through the process. You DO have to be committed to the work, but anyone who says you cna’t potty train a Havanese (or other toy breed) simply hasn’t put the effort in with confinement and supervision.


----------



## Babilonia (Jun 2, 2021)

krandall said:


> Fake grass is HORRIBLE!!! It stinks to high heavens, and, believe me, NO dog or puppy thinks for one second that it has anythingmore to do with real grass than pee pads do. And whether it is a box or a pad doesn’t really make a difference either. An indoor potty is an indoorpotty. I do not like CLOTH pee pads, because puppies DO confuse those with throw rugs. But not paper ones.
> 
> The point of potty training, indoors or out, is to teach the puppy where it is OK to go and where they are NOT supposed to go. It is not hard, it is just time consuming. PEOPLE get it wrong, but based on the limited amount of impnformation you have given us so far, these puppies should be no harder to train than any others. They are not cats and do not use cat litter boxes. They are not the same, nor are training methods the same. If you would have a problem training this puppy, you are probably not ready to potty train any puppy.
> 
> OTOH we have a tried and tru method on the forum for potty training puppes and have helped MANY people, brand new to dogs, through the process. You DO have to be committed to the work, but anyone who says you cna’t potty train a Havanese (or other toy breed) simply hasn’t put the effort in with confinement and supervision.


Thank you, I get your point and this is really helpful to me.
I have watched many training videos but I will check this forum also, for potty training and other stuff as well


----------



## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Babilonia said:


> Thank you for your reply!
> I am aware that they cannot pee on the real grass when they are very little, but I know that most breeders are using the potty that resembles the grass (or at least a litter box). I am not sure how it is called in English, but I know it looks like fake grass.
> I never had a dog and I am not sure if I will be able to break that habit... I live in a house with a yard, and I would really prefer if the dog is doing his business outside... I already have litter boxes for cats  I read many comments about how hard is to train your puppy to go outside, when they got used to using regular paper pads...


From what I've read on the forum, dogs will always want to go outside and will prefer to use the outside - so once you start that way (transitioning - keeping the option inside for a while but taking them out as well) - in fact, from the experience of others that I've read, if you want to keep the pad as an option you have to constantly reinforce it after they start using the outside because they prefer outside. So, I wouldn't really worry about making that transition.


----------



## Babilonia (Jun 2, 2021)

So, I got the puppy and I have few questions if you would be kind to help me out.

I was taking him out every 2 hours, but he doesn't want to pee outside at all. For example I took him out at 9:10 and he peed inside the house at 9:25. How can I teach him not to do this??

Also, is it ok for him to sleep in another room, alone, during night? He slept with me yesterday and he peed on the bed 
Can he be left alone during the night, 8 hours?

Thank you 🌼


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Babilonia said:


> Thank you for your reply!
> I am aware that they cannot pee on the real grass when they are very little, but I know that most breeders are using the potty that resembles the grass (or at least a litter box). I am not sure how it is called in English, but I know it looks like fake grass.
> I never had a dog and I am not sure if I will be able to break that habit... I live in a house with a yard, and I would really prefer if the dog is doing his business outside... I already have litter boxes for cats  I read many comments about how hard is to train your puppy to go outside, when they got used to using regular paper pads...


I LOL!! because I've been there. 

Fake Grass is AWFUL smelling if that's what people are using. There's no way to wash the pee out and the more it's used the worse it gets. Pee pads are only slightly better because you can throw them away. 

ALL!! indoor-potty trained Havanese - train themselves - to Go Outside and prefer going outside if they have the option if they are FIRST trained to use a potty-tray in the house. You don't have to do any outdoor training. 

However, if you FIRST train them to go outside you CANNOT train them to do the Reverse. Or, no one on this forum has been able to do Reverse Indoor Training.

We have a yard but we vacation in the summer in the mountains in a three story condo, which requires us to walk Patti outside. However, she has a potty tray tucked behind a chair upstairs that she uses when she needs to Do Her Job. So, it doesn't require us to get up at 5 a.m. to walk her in the morning or throughout the day. We can do that are out pleasure. And, when we leave for the day we don't have to rush back to walk her or ask a neighbor to help out. When the weather is HORRIBLE, Patti sometimes choose the indoor-potty train over a pouring down rain storm or blizzard. The weather has to be pretty bad for her to choose to potty indoors, but she has that option. 

If interested attached - The Havanese Forum Indoor-Potty Method ...


----------



## Babilonia (Jun 2, 2021)

Mikki said:


> I LOL!! because I've been there.
> 
> Fake Grass is AWFUL smelling if that's what people are using. There's no way to wash the pee out and the more it's used the worse it gets. Pee pads are only slightly better because you can throw them away.
> 
> ...


Thank you!
I am trying to stick to everything I read here, and I think he is slowly getting the point where he should be doing his business. He had two accidents so far, but he peed and pooped a lot more outside 😁


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Babilonia said:


> Thank you!
> I am trying to stick to everything I read here, and I think he is slowly getting the point where he should be doing his business. He had two accidents so far, but he peed and pooped a lot more outside 😁


You need to accept housebreaking a toy dog takes "as long as it takes" and it takes many months. Expect 10 months to a year if your following the Havanese advice regarding confinement. If do you do not confine your puppy in an area that is puppy proof and always have "eyes on him" if he's outside of an ex-pen or play pen you likely will never get him housebroken. 

Indoor housebreaking is quicker and the dog will eventually go outside on this own. If you let him run around the house he'll pee in the house, you'll not know when or where and it will be very difficult to change that behavior once it gets started.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> You need to accept housebreaking a toy dog takes "as long as it takes" and it takes many months. Expect 10 months to a year if your following the Havanese advice regarding confinement. If do you do not confine your puppy in an area that is puppy proof and always have "eyes on him" if he's outside of an ex-pen or play pen you likely will never get him housebroken.
> 
> Indoor housebreaking is quicker and the dog will eventually go outside on this own. If you let him run around the house he'll pee in the house, you'll not know when or where and it will be very difficult to change that behavior once it gets started.


YES!!!

Interestingly, Jane Lindquist, who wrote the Puppy Culture program, and has a DYNAMITE, FREE series of videos on raising your puppy that she made during Covid, but she still has available for free and is STILL relevant and valuable breeds and shows Bull Terriers. About far from a “toy breed” as you can get. And as someone who has personally only experienced toy breeds, I was very interested that her advice about dogs IN GENERAL was to not expect fully potty trained puppies in less than a year. That it might happen, but don’t EXPECT it. So this is NOT just a “toy dog thing”, even if it’s more common with little dogs. 
Even in larger breeds, you STILL have to confine and supervise when they are bigger. My GUESS is that the consequences of an accident are so much worse that owners are MUCH more motivated to get it right, and notice IMMEDIATELY if the dog has had an accident and get right on top of it! LOL!


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

krandall said:


> YES!!!
> 
> Interestingly, Jane Lindquist, who wrote the Puppy Culture program, and has a DYNAMITE, FREE series of videos on raising your puppy that she made during Covid, but she still has available for free and is STILL relevant and valuable breeds and shows Bull Terriers. About far from a “toy breed” as you can get. And as someone who has personally only experienced toy breeds, I was very interested that her advice about dogs IN GENERAL was to not expect fully potty trained puppies in less than a year. That it might happen, but don’t EXPECT it. So this is NOT just a “toy dog thing”, even if it’s more common with little dogs.
> Even in larger breeds, you STILL have to confine and supervise when they are bigger. My GUESS is that the consequences of an accident are so much worse that owners are MUCH more motivated to get it right, and notice IMMEDIATELY if the dog has had an accident and get right on top of it! LOL!


That's interesting that large dogs take as long to housebreak as toys. I haven't noticed that to be true but if the experts say it is, I'm sure that's correct. Large dogs may, also, be more interested in going outside. And, when the pee goes unnoticed it's training the dog to pee in the house and a big puppy pee spot is NOT going to be noticeable.

Will have to check out the Puppy Culture Program. It's hard for me to 💘 Feel the Love 💕 for Bull Terriers. Fascinating looking dog.

Actually...Patti was trustworthy very quickly in one room area. She innately used the potty tray without me doing anything, expect providing a potty tray inside her ex-pen and I encouraged it with treats. Within three months I felt comfortable leaving the ex-pen door open in that one room that was gated off and she went back inside the ex-pen to Do Her Job. Then we worked on other rooms. At 10-months she had access to three rooms in the house and later we added the other parts of the house. 

My daughters large Golden-doodle is NOT trustworthy and she is gated off from the main part of the house. She's good in a small area of the home where she stays and has access to a doggie door. My daughter didn't do a good job of housebreaking her.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> That's interesting that large dogs take as long to housebreak as toys. I haven't noticed that to be true but if the experts say it is, I'm sure that's correct. Large dogs may, also, be more interested in going outside. And, when the pee goes unnoticed it's training the dog to pee in the house and a big puppy pee spot is NOT going to be noticeable.


I don’t think she was saying that it ALWAYS takes that long, but she was cautioning that it CAN take that long with ANY breed. And I agree… NO ONE is going to miss it when their Lab puppy pees in the middle of the livingroom! And your daughter’s dog pretty much proves the point! That potty training issues can happen in any size/breed dog. LOL!



Mikki said:


> Will have to check out the Puppy Culture Program. It's hard for me to 💘 Feel the Love 💕 for Bull Terriers. Fascinating looking dog.


It’s a fabulous program, and lots of other valuable training information there too, though you are probably past needing any of it for Patti!

And I agree on the Bull Terriers… comical looking animals, but not a breed I’d EVER be attracted to for myself! LOL!


----------



## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

Our 'big' dogs seemed to be potty-trained well before one year. Our Nessie only really had one major accident and that was when she had an UTI. I don't remember any accidents after 3 months. They still had to be watched and confined because they got into different types of trouble. Counter-surfing! Eating a baseboard! Running through sliding door screens! Just bigger and more expensive troubles. 

Our Jack, a Hav, was never perfectly trained. There were accidents. Because of him, we aren't expecting miracles with Fezzik. Just trying to be consistent.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

morriscsps said:


> Our 'big' dogs seemed to be potty-trained well before one year. Our Nessie only really had one major accident and that was when she had an UTI. I don't remember any accidents after 3 months. They still had to be watched and confined because they got into different types of trouble. Counter-surfing! Eating a baseboard! Running through sliding door screens! Just bigger and more expensive troubles.
> 
> *Our Jack, a Hav, was never perfectly trained. There were accidents. Because of him, we aren't expecting miracles with Fezzik. Just trying to be consistent.*


Most things I read say toy dogs are difficult to housebreak and Yorkies are at the top of the list of difficult. Googling information about Havanese say they are difficult to housebreak.

Havanese are very! smart dogs and they are easily fully-housebroken if you will confine them until they are 100% trustworthy. That doesn't mean confinding them in an ex-pen full-time but they have to be confined to one room with an ex-pen when you're not able to watch them. Then you progress to the next room area.

Actually, indoor housebreaking is easy to do and once learned they'll automatically go outside. My daughter has a Golden-doodle who can't be trusted outside of one area of the house, and we have a gate up to keep her confined to one section of the house. Even though Lucy had pottied on a rug in the area of the house that she is now NOT allowed into, Patti never pottied on that rug, although she carefully sniffed that section. 

Patti is housebroken. Lucy is not housebroken even though she is reliable in one area of the home. Dogs are either housebroken or not.

If interested .... Here is information on how to Housebreak a Havanese or Toy Dog.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> Most things I read say toy dogs are difficult to housebreak and Yorkies are at the top of the list of difficult. Googling information about Havanese say they are difficult to housebreak.


I think that when people let a guinea pig sized animal loose in their house and think that it will be able to figure out potting on its own, OR that THEY will be able to FIND accidents if they are not watching that animal EVERY SECOND, they are delusional. But people do it all.the.time with toy breed puppies. I really strongly suspect that the problem with potty training toy breed puppies has MUCH more to do with the owners unrealistic expectations than with the breeds themselves.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

krandall said:


> I think that when people let a guinea pig sized animal loose in their house and think that it will be able to figure out potting on its own, OR that THEY will be able to FIND accidents if they are not watching that animal EVERY SECOND, they are delusional. But people do it all.the.time with toy breed puppies. I really strongly suspect that the problem with potty training toy breed puppies has MUCH more to do with the owners unrealistic expectations than with the breeds themselves.


Very funny! Great! example. LOL!!!


----------



## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

Fezzik is doing better than Jack did. Or should I say, WE are doing better with him than we did with Jack. The litterbox is definitely helping. I won't say how many days we have gone without an accident (don't want to jinx it) but we have a new record!!!


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

morriscsps said:


> Fezzik is doing better than Jack did. Or should I say, WE are doing better with him than we did with Jack. The litterbox is definitely helping. I won't say how many days we have gone without an accident (don't want to jinx it) but we have a new record!!!


Yay!!!


----------



## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> I think that when people let a guinea pig sized animal loose in their house and think that it will be able to figure out potting on its own, OR that THEY will be able to FIND accidents if they are not watching that animal EVERY SECOND, they are delusional. But people do it all.the.time with toy breed puppies. I really strongly suspect that the problem with potty training toy breed puppies has MUCH more to do with the owners unrealistic expectations than with the breeds themselves.


Love the comparison "a guinea pig size animal". When you think about it though it's completely logical. When I had medium size dogs, you could keep 1/2 an eye on them and it was very obvious when they were going to squat to pee (or circling to poop) - the distance they had to squat (I had girl dogs - and even the boys being neutered ended up squating to a certain extent) was pretty significant so was easy to spot and stop them... but toy breeds - tell me that you can really see the difference between a girl toy pup squatting to pee and sitting down (or a boy pup bending their knees slightly to pee!) - it's almost impossible!


----------

