# DOC, Vaccinations ???



## LuvMyHavanese (Apr 13, 2007)

:help: I have heard & read many many different things about vaccination issues with Havanese. Do them, dont do them:nono: , dont do some of them, dont do every year, titering etc...... I certainly do not want to over vaccinate my pups. 
I read your & Dianes book 'The Havanese' & was wondering, in your opinion, has anything changed in the protocol of vaccinations. I only addressed this to Doc for obvious reasons but of course anyone is welcome to respond. :ear:


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## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

i just had my pup receive his vacination this week. because of his size, 9 lbs, we break the shots up over a span of 3 weeks, giving one each week instead of the combo that has everything. it's less taxing on their systems. the one thing i learned was that now vacinations are given once every 2-3 years depending on the shot. rabies i believe are every 3 years, parvo, every 2, lipto every 2, etc. you need to check with your vet. my breeder suggestd titering but my vet felt that immunizing your dog is the safest bet against anything out there that could kill him. i always make sure i am going to be with my dog for the first 24 hours and sometimes give him a quarter of a baby aspirin to help with the fever and other symptoms. i also torn but have heard too many stories about dogs diying from parvo, etc.


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## MaddiesMom (Apr 1, 2007)

I was going to follow the same protocol as Paige (vaccinated with the puppy shots and then again at one year and be done with them except for rabies). If my vet disagrees, I was going to ask for titers. I would also love to have professional input.


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## LuvMyHavanese (Apr 13, 2007)

Thanks. I have checked with my vet but most vets are not familier with Havs & are unaware of most issues with them. Especially being vaccine(lepto?) & anesthsia sensitive.


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## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

*Besides the book by Diane and Doc are there any other resources about this so I can..*

print out and show to my vet? Thanks...

I know my breeder follows a vaccine schedule set by someone [could be doc] that she is giving me when I pick him up.

Anything else? Links, etc. Thanks so much.

I delayed vaccines and split up vaccines for my kids and asked for certain changes in protocal that my pediatrician did with no problems so I'm not afraid to dissent. LOL.

Trish


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

This is what was posted on the Havanese Health forum a few month ago, I cant remember if it was Doc who put it out or not sorry. 
I know my vet is hoping that they are able to start only giving rabies every 5 years but they have to follow the law for now.

Havanese Vaccination Protocol

• 8-9 wks Distemper/Parvo Vaccine (Intervet Puppyshot)-wait 3
weeks then
• 11-12wks Distemper/Parvo/ Parainfluenza, Adeno2 This can be
give either as a 5 way, such as Duramune Max 5 or as a
distemper/parvo (Intervet Puppyshot) and an intranasal (Intervet
KCPlus which includes Adeno2, parainfluenza and Bordetella.) Wait
three weeks then
• 14-15wks Repeat 11-12wk vaccination Wait 3 weeks then
• 17-18 wks. Rabies
• 1 year later: Distemper, Adeno2, Parainfluenza , Parvo. Wait
3 weeks then Booster Rabies 3 year vaccination. (Some states require
annual Rabies vaccination. If this is the case, do separate Rabies
vaccination at least three weeks apart from any other vaccination. )
• Following the 1 year boosters, there are a couple of
options.
o AAHA has recommended boostering every 3 years with core
vaccines. There are now combination vaccinations for distemper,
adeno and parvo which are labeled for 3 years by challenge. Non-core
vaccines should only be used if the risk of the disease is greater
than the risk of the vaccination. Non-core vaccines include
Bordetella/Parainfl uenza, Lyme, and the bacterin, Lepto.
o An alternative is to run titers for distemper/parvo to
assess likely immunity. There is some controversy about whether a
low titer actually indicates lack of immunity (see notes about
memory cells in the references given) but an adequate titer gives me
confidence about continued immunity.

I do not recommend the use of Lepto bacterin unless faced with an
outbreak and then it should be given separately from all other
vaccines at least 3weeks apart from any other vaccination and never
before 9 weeks of age. If Lepto is given, be sure that the bacterin
used contains the serovar(s) causing the outbreak.

I never recommend using Corona vaccine considering it, at best,
unnecessary. There is simply no justification to support the use of
this vaccine component.

I have consulted several of the top researchers in the USA,
including Ron Schultz and Leland Carmichael (Cornell University)
about canine diseases and vaccinations. The general consensus is
that annual vaccinations are unnecessary and, indeed, possibly
harmful. For my own dogs, I run titers annually even though there is
some controversy on their relevance (research has shown that
immunity in the face of challenge is dependent on memory cells,
rather than antibodies so a low titer does not necessarily indicate
lack of immunity.)

Further information on the subject of vaccinations and protocols can
be found at a number of internet sites including:
Canine Vaccination Protocols
Richard B. Ford, DVM, MS, Dipl ACVIM
Professor of Medicine, North Carolina State University
North Carolina, USA


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I just said in my other post that neither of my girls have had shots after the one year mark. It is an individual's decision but the little matlese had a severe reaction to the lepto shot that was not suppose to be in her distemper mix. I decided there on out that we needed to do something different. The vet I have in Columbus is so passionate that if your titer comes back that you actually need the shot, he will do it for free. Both my girls are around other dogs all the time and have been very healthy. I think if there were sick or old, I would reconsider and take extra precaution but over vaccination definetly happens. Dr. Dodds has a lot of information and her protocol is similar. Make sure to talk about to your vet too as there may be things in your area that you are exposed to that would warrant certain shots.

http://www.dogsadversereactions.com/MinimalVaccineUse.html

Amanda


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

I think dogs are overvaccinated .. I am also very leary of the quality and pureness of some of the vaccines .. 
I have had bad results twice and now I am very careful . My dog Griffin got very sick after immunization . He developed meningitis and he almost died .. I was told dogs do not get meningitis just humans . Hello he had all the symptons and they still tried to deny it .. Said it was due to a foxtail .. Very creative I thought !!
I finally found a vet who said it was due to his immunization ..
If they think some vaccines caused autism in children why is it any different with dogs ..
Thie is one of the issues that concerns me . Who is in charge of these regulations 
The fact that they keep changing their minds about frequency of rabies also concerns me .. first every year - now it up to every three just leds me to believe that they do not know what they are doing and are just guessing and doing a CYA.
I am in favor of titers as well ..


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

I am also thinking of doing titers next year also. My vet is always telling me how sensative these little guys are to shots and makes me wait 20 min or so before I leave.


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## LuvMyHavanese (Apr 13, 2007)

Well, from what i read in another post i think Doc has left the building:bolt: . So i guess we wont get her input. But maybe Tom, Greg, Kimberly etc.. will give their opinions since you have dealt with having to vaccinate so many dogs over the years.


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## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

well django just had his distemper shot and based o what i am reading, i am cancelling the other shot for lepto. i've got a call into my vet, talked to one of the nurses and she told me that alot of smaller dogs don't receive the lepto, she even felt it wasn't a necessary immunization. thanks for the discussion, it makes one think and rethink how we care for our pups.


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## ginny (Mar 29, 2008)

I did a search for vaccination reactions and although this is an old thread I am bumping it up with a question. Suzy is 17 weeks old, had a well check and vaccinations yesterday. I do not remember my other dogs being under the weather after shots. The vet said she might be a little tired. She did sleep off and on after the shots, left her dinner but ate all of it just before going to bed.

She woke very early this morning and when I lifted her to get her outside she yelped. Maybe she was up early due to the late meal and needing to get outside. I watched her and she does not have diarrhea, just a normal looking stool.

When the vet gave one of the shots Suzy screamed. He said to put her on the floor and let her walk it off", he said it stings. She cried down on the floor for a few minutes. That hip/leg area does seem sore this morning, if I try to rub the area she nuzzles me away.

Any ideas about how long a puppy would not feel too great after vaccinations? 

We gave DHPP-CV Booster, Rabies, (Bordetella first vac). She also had her first Frontline application, needed due to the ticks being out, and also her first heartworm preventative. 

I keep checking on Suzy, she wants to be in the crate next to my bed and not downstairs with me. Although I am concerned about being Suzy being "not quite" housebroken, I have the crate gate open so she can come downstairs when she is ready.

My vet does not do Lepto unless there is an outbreak.)


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I do puppy shots, then a booster at 1 year. I do titers after that. If the titer comes back low for something, I'll give them a single dose for that particular virus. I don't do Lepto, bordatella, lyme or anything that's not life threatening.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Yikes Ginny that is a lot of shots all in one visit, these guys are vacine sensative and shots should be given seperatly spaced out. I alway give Rabbies alone and 3 weeks after the booster shot. The Booster & Bordetella shot together is fine. I think I would have waited on the frontline as well just to be safe. 

I do remember Monte being tired after his shots but he bounced back the next day. Does Suzy have any interest in food or water this morning? I would check her temp and for any signs of dehydration (something I always do when they are not acting normal) and maybe call the vet.

Hugs Ginny, it's always hard when our little ones are not feeling 100%


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

ginny said:


> I did a search for vaccination reactions and although this is an old thread I am bumping it up with a question. Suzy is 17 weeks old, had a well check and vaccinations yesterday. I do not remember my other dogs being under the weather after shots. The vet said she might be a little tired. She did sleep off and on after the shots, left her dinner but ate all of it just before going to bed.
> 
> She woke very early this morning and when I lifted her to get her outside she yelped. Maybe she was up early due to the late meal and needing to get outside. I watched her and she does not have diarrhea, just a normal looking stool.
> 
> ...


Ginny, it is too late now, but you should not allow your clinic to give that many vaccines all at once. If she has a reaction to one, how are you going to know which one caused the trouble? I am really surprised at your vet for doing this. I didn't think any veterinarians did things like that anymore.

Anyway, to answer your question, she can feel pretty crummy for several days. I have to say this is uncanny timing because I was emailing back and forth with Dr. Jean Dodds, the leading authority on canine & feline vaccines, yesterday, and she specifically sent me information on vaccines and what can increase the adverse reactions. I will quote it directly from her notes:


> VACCINE CONCLUSIONS FOR CANINES *
> 
> Factors that increase risk of adverse events 3 days after vaccination:
> 
> ...


I hope you aren't going to worry, but do keep an eye on Suzy.


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## ginny (Mar 29, 2008)

Thanks all. We were told to space the rabies from her earlier shots and it has been around 4 weeks since her last well visit. The Bordetella is because we are going to interview for Doggie Day Care and Puppy Play. I wish I had thought ahead and asked to delay the kennel cough. I was not expecting a DHPP-CV, I guess because the vet told me to wait a few weeks before coming in for the rabies. 

We have a second Bordetella in a few weeks so at least I will be able to tell if there is a reaction to that shot.

Still sore and still resting. I am going to bring her to work with me (unfortunately she submissive pees when the others make a big fuss-- just got to deal with it today).

Again, thank you. I appreciate the help more than you could know.


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## havanesebyha (Apr 25, 2007)

Pebble had her 3d vaccines yesterday - 5 in 1 and had a bad reaction! We went in the morning and by 6:00 p.m. she had an egg size lump between her shoulder blades!! I rushed her into the vet last night and they gave her a Benadryl shot to counter balance the reaction. She had 5 in 1 before with the breeder, but no reaction, so either this pushed it over her limit in her system or it was a different strain. From now on she will have any vaccines broken up and never all together! She is also to have Benadryl before her rabies!


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Oh yes, I always give a small dose of Benadryl 20 minutes before the vaccinations and again 8 hours later to help ward off any reaction. Why don't you call your vet and see if a Benedryl is okay? I used 1/4 chewable strip (children's dose) on my 5 lb puppy and 1/2 strip for a 10 lb. Your vet can calculate the exact amount for your puppy's weight.


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## ruthann (Jan 26, 2007)

Annabelle just had her physical and I had titers performed and she needed NO vacinations. According to what I read dogs are over vacinated and I will not take a chance. Ruth Ann


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## ginny (Mar 29, 2008)

As of tonight I think the worst is over. Suzy seems to be doing well and was outside doing her RLH bit a little while ago. 

Thanks for the kind help.


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## Miss Paige (Apr 4, 2008)

I only have the rabies done since it's mandatory I have titers on all the other shots. At least that is how I have done it this year for Miss Paige-I went ahead and gave Rommy man all his shots for the last time-then starting next year it will be the same as with Paige.

Pat


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Ginny, I hope Suzy is still doing o.k. 

Ricky's liver issues are no doubt a result of him getting vaccines last Oct. 4 days later, he was in the ER overnight with a high fever and his ALT liver enzyme sky-high (1200-1800, norm is max. 100). Vets there and at my clinic said it couldnt' be the vaccine. Yeah........ right! :suspicious: It's been since early Nov. that we are testing Ricky and he is still at a 400+ level. They say they have no clue why this has happened. hmmmmm...... 

Sammy is 'due' for his 2nd year shots, but I'm only going to have the bordatella nose drops done. Not taking chances anymore.


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## ginny (Mar 29, 2008)

Thanks to everyone who responded. I am sorry about Ricky's liver illness, I know how nasty that can be. Have you or the vet changed him to a low protein diet? Suzy is doing fine, back to herself after a day or so. I am going to be more cautious in the futur--- of course.


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## nancyf (Nov 6, 2007)

I read these posts and decided to go easy on the yearly shots. THEN I found out our town required a yearly rabies. There is no way to opt out. Does anyone know if there is a less potent rabies shot? If they need yearly shots in our town, are some better than others?


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I think all states do require the yearly rabies and if you decide not to do it, you can get in trouble if caught. My vet recommended doing the 3 year rabies shot and that is what I did with the girls.

Amanda


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Three year rabies is fine after one year - but many states are beginning to look at longer times between rabies since the research shows that titers are strong after 5-7 years.

Also, once your puppy has had all of it's shots and one set of boosters after 14 months, all 27 major vet colleges are now going with the recommendation that no more immunizations are needed. Most dogs will have a lifetime immunity by then.


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## nancyf (Nov 6, 2007)

We talked to local vets who clarified the position Texas has on the yearly rabies shot. I knew they recommended the 3-year rabies shot but what I didn't know is that the state of Texas recommends the 3-year rabies shot EVERY year. 

I asked our local animal control officer if titer levels could be checked instead and she never heard of it and said the law would not be changed.

I'm going to call larger cities like Plano and Lewisville and see if they give the one year rabies shot--it's up to individual cities to decide what to use. I don't know if we could get all our shots at one vet and the rabies in another city which gives the yearly shot--does it say "yearly" or "3-year" on the rabies certificate? This is a difficult spot to be in especially since I've learned so much about immunizations from this group. I know we'll be doing a whole lot of praying.


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