# Puppy has runny black stool



## Laurasch

I am totally new to feeding raw (just read up on it, no actual experience) and need help as my puppy has had runny black stool for the past couple days. 

I started both of them on Stella and Chewy's Chicken 12 days ago, transitioning them over from kibble over several days. The adult was on Now, the puppy on the breeder's recommendatin - Purina Pro puppy. Things looked good - poops got smaller and they strained a little bit more; and were lighter in color on days they got to chew recreational raw bones. 

About 4-5 days ago I started giving them S&C's Beef. Then 3 days ago Tucker, almost 4 months and 7lb, started to have darker, runnery ones and by today it was just a puddle, no form left at all. Besides the raw patties, he gets a few of the Stella treats and 10-20 pieces of Ziwi Peak as rewards during the day. They had been getting a probiotic, acidophilus, and fish oil every couple days. When I went raw I added Nupro a couple times the second week, but quit when this came up. The first time I added back in the fish oil is when he got runny so I didn't do it again. (Pepper, 2 yr old 15 lb, is doing just fine throughout the switch.)

Is this diet just too rich for the puppy? Or is it beef that's somehow the culprit? Did I introduce a second meat too soon?

If it's just the raw in general, could I 'dilute' it with something to make it less rich? or include some supplement? 

And for right now, what is a good way to get him solid again? If he was on kibble I'd give him some boiled chicken and rice and it would probably be gone in one round. Is that an okay solution on this diet? 

I really want them to be able to raw if possible. Thanks so much for your help! 

Laura


----------



## juliav

I think it's absolutely ok to give your puppy boiled chicken and rice to get him stable again. I also give my guys pepto when/if they get too runny to quickly nip it. Also, there is a great product to help your dog if his stool get runny, called optagest, here's the link with info.

http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/product_detail.aspx?item_cd=239014&click=73401&CC=Solstice


----------



## Chasza

I am not familiar with these foods. How fatty is it? Do they indicate a fat percentage?

So the second dog had runny stools on fish oil, but you removed that from the diet, and he has runny stools still?? Wasn't clear on the timeline.

The diet might be the culprit, but it might be something else happening at the same time. Black means there is blood in the upper digestive track --- this could be from serious things ranging from parasites to a virus or bacterial infection. Or it could be from the RMB's. I have read a few vet sites that do say that dogs can get intestinal perforations from eating raw bones. Runny could be from too high in fat or again, from parasites or infection, or b/c the bones have irritated the stomach to the point it is trying to get every thing out fast.

My take on this? I would see the vet today to rule out somethiing serious. If nothing serious is found, then I would give plain cooked chicken breast without skin and white rice that has been cooked with extra water for a long time till it's mush. If nothing serious was wrong, I still wouldn't go back to raw for at least a week or two. Need to stay on cooked till the stomach heals and then very slowly only introduce one new thing at a time. 

Two days of black runny diarrhea could also bring on dehydration if it is frequent. I still would be talking with the vet today, if it were me. (be prepared for a raw lecture) There are other things it could be as well. For example, if your dogs have all drank from a different water source, then it could be that two of them have giardia, although it does seem more likely it might be the bones/fat content. 

Is the diarrhea frequent, or only once a day? Is there any vomiting? Are they playing well, or are they acting like they don't feel well such as being legarthic? Have you taken their temp? Anything different about their playing or wanting/not wanting to eat? Are there gums paler than normal? All these things will factor into a diagnosis as well.

edited: I wouldn't give anything to stop the diarrhea until talking with your vet. It's just like with humans -- IF there is a virus or bacterial overload, then you don't want to stop the body's way of eliminating the offending agent, unless their is so much that dehydration is a problem, or if you know for sure it's not a virus. Also a quick note that I have read that Pepto isn't the best to give to dogs b/c it is a derivative ofa compound that is in aspirin. I have not personally talked to a vet about this though, and gotten their take on it.


----------



## Missy

Laura, I would speak with a vet. The black makes me nervous! sometimes black can mean blood (in humans anyway.) But usually if it is blood it is hard and tarry or looks like coffee grounds. So don't panick--But I would still speak with a vet.

Is the Stella and Chewy's frozen raw or dehydrated? I personally feel better about the frozen commercial raws than the dehydrated. I know the Nature's Variety says their dehydrated is not be used for everyday feeding. I don't know the other product you mentioned. But I have found sticking with one brand seems to be the best for my boys. Also, I do not remember for sure, but was something recalled from Stella and Chewy's? maybe do a google search to be sure (edited to add thread where S & C recall was mentioned...http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=10285&highlight=stella)

I also have heard a lot of people having problems with Ziwi Peak. I think it is just too rich. 20 pieces is actually quite a bit of extra food for small dogs. We love the Canz real meat treats as treats. One square is 2.5 calories and I break each square up into 4-8 pieces depending on the training.

I think there are a lot of great raw foods out there. But, having been through it, you can drive yourself crazy trying to mix and match and try new things. I found when I settled on Natures Variety (and I think it could have been any brand) my boys started really thriving. Unless you are really doing the raw thing from scratch and committed to it (chicken necks, and rotation, and all) I personally think it is best to stick with one brand. You can rotate proteins, but each brand is specifically balanced to be a sole source of nutrition. You can veggies, or scraps from your meals up to 10%. JMO. And I don't lovw them as a company, but a lot of people I know keep coming back to Nature's Variety (including myself) they are one of the oldest and most established raw foods.

Feel better Tucker and Pepper!


----------



## Laurasch

Thank-you all for your thoughts, they really helped! Here are replies back to the questions, and more questions from me  - 

I don't know quite how to describe it but it looked like the 'too rich' stool rather than bloody stool, and he was going a couple times a day like normal, not like a bout of diarrhea. So rather than emergency (couldn't get to my regular vet, holiday week-end) I went ahead and fed the chicken and rice last night and this am. His stool turned lighter and firmed up some, though it's still soft. Perhaps not enough rice given the situation? Will continue to feed it for the next several meals as long as things continue to improve. 

The Ziwi Peak is a dehydrated meat dog food from New Zealand. He's been getting that all along, it's the raw food that's the change. I have chicken chips and dried beef liver cubes I can cut into small pieces, if the problem is the raw is too rich, then maybe that would be better with it instead of the Ziwi? I also have the Plato treats, Salmon and Duck. It seems like all the really high quality treats (ie meat, no filler) are high calorie. I think the Canz is the same. I do break the Ziwi's tiny squares into 2, and even 4 if I need to. They barely get a taste, but it's something.

I was taking care to include the Ziwi in my calculations as part of his food, (20 pcs = about an oz.) so he's not getting extra rations. 

About the Stella's I am using the frozen, not the dehydrated, thought I was keeping that option in mind for when we travel.

Thanks too for that link to the thread about the recall. I'm not sure if there's a problem here in WA as my adult dog is okay on the Stella's. I could just let him eat the rest of it, get the NV for the puppy and if all goes well, eventually switch them both over. However Sabine, the dog nutrionist Missy and others have mentioned in that thread and others, really likes Stella's so if I figure this out and still use it that would be nice too.

Thanks! Laura


----------



## PepperToast

Chances are the beef was too rich. Most likely it is mostly meat and organs. I found my dogs got runny black poop after an high organ meal. See the first 8 ingredients of what you are feeding: S&C's Beef ingredients: Beef, beef liver, beef kidney, beef heart, beef tripe, ground beef bone, pumpkin seed. Where as here is the chicken: Chicken (ground with bone), chicken liver, chicken gizzard, pumpkin seed. Most likely the chicken has less organs and more bone to meat ratio. Plus... beef is harder to digest. 

FYI I also noticed that they add probiotics to their food. That means that if you are also supplementing with probiotics they might be getting enough to cause soft stool. 

Just a thought.


----------



## Chasza

Ok, I am thinking, too, that it's too much liver. Do you have a food scale and are you using it? If so, how many ounces of food a day are you feeding, and how many ounces of this is liver? Too much liver can cause runny stools. Since pepperToast listed out the ingredients, and they have plenty of liver, I don't think you need to be adding more liver into the mix.


----------



## Laurasch

Oh that's _very _helpful! I didn't know too much organ meat would do that and thank-you for comparing the ingredients for me.I will keep with the cooked chicken and rice til they've been stable for a while, then maybe go back to the raw chicken (I'm getting a little chicken about it tho now, groan  )

I will avoid use of the dried liver completely for a while. I was only giving them two bites the size of pencil erasers at a bedtime treat, doesn't register as even a partial ounce. But I had thought about switching to using it more, so you kept me out of trouble on that one!

I also didn't know the probiotic could cause runny stool. I had actually upped the doze to daily to try to help them! I'll back off of it too until they've been totally solid for a while.

I switched to boiled chicken Fri night, stool lightened up in color the next day, but hasn't gotten solid and was runnier again this am - did give the probioticbefore I read this ):. How quickly do you think it should clear up? Would being withhin 48 hrs seem pretty long or not so much? 
I'm wondering if it's not solid by tomorrow if I should take him in or wait and watch. He's his happy, active self, it's just the poo that's not right.


----------

