# Was this appropriate?



## Luvahav

I bought my Havanese puppy from a local breeder, finding her on the internet and delighted that she was close by. Fell in love with the male of the bunch, but when I went to pay and take him home, she informed me that I could not have him unless I signed a contract that I would not have him neutered as she wanted to borrow him back to breed again and that I was not allowed to breed him myself. I have no intentions of breeding, in fact, I would like to have him neutered in several months but I did sign her contract. In all of the ads from other breeders, they insist having your dog neutered within a certain time frame. Do I have any options, other than seeing an attorney?
I rather feel like I am leasing my own dog and have no rights.
Thanks for any information you can give me.
Pat


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## Cheryl

Pat, Welcome to the forum. Perhaps one of the breeders can answer your question. I have not heard of this--usually they want you to sign a contract to have him neutered, not the other way around.


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## maryam187

Wow,
that sounds interesting. I'm sure one of the many breeders in this forum will jump in and let you know their opinion!
Maryam.


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## maryam187

Oh, sorry: :welcome: Pat!!!


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## CinnCinn

Hi Pat, Welcome to the forum. I agree with Cheryl, it's usually the other way around.

My first Havanese, I signed a contract saying I WOULD have him neutered. He turned out to be show quality and the breeder happily sent me new papers to change his registration. With no strings attached.

My 2nd Havanese, I met the breeder online & only saw pictures. My agreement ~ upfront~ before I was in love with him, was to NOT neuter him & show him to his championship.

I'm very new to the breed. I got Rudy in January & Rocky this week. Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.

The breeders on this forum I'm sure will have more info. for you.

Pictures please!!!!


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## dboudreau

Welcome to the Forum Pat.

Honestly I would have walked away. Agreeing to breed a dog that you have no idea what he is going to turn out like, doesn't sit right with me.

I agree with Cindy, if you had an agreement from the begining to show, test, then breed. That happens all the time. But to not mention anything until you are ready to pick up the pup. I don't think that is right.


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## mckennasedona

That sounds very odd to me but then I'm not a breeder. How old is he? It's not a contract for a show puppy, only a "do not neuter" thing? She wants to breed a dog she's not showing at all? I'll be interested to see what the breeders say.

Susan

PS - Welcome to the Forum, Pat.


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## lfung5

I agree, it is usually the other way around. Most breeders breed to better the breed, meaning showing and health testing. It's frowned upon for her not to ask you to show or health test, but then use him to breed. Who knows what this dog has in his genes.


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## Missy

It sounds like the breeder really liked the way your pup turned out and wanted to breed the line. I have heard that breeders will often ask for rights to breed a male dog but usually not at such a young age- usually if they are thinking of them as breeding stock they will keep them until they are 5 or 6 months to evaluate them. But you could take it as a compliment. I would be curious to hear what the breeders on this forum think. Kimberly, Tom, Jan, Greg?


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## pjewel

Dare I ask, who is this breeder? I've never heard of that before. I had an uncomfortable experience with a breeder online and fortunately walked away. Her puppies are adorable but their heritage and possible health issues are ify. I hate after the fact demands -- regarding anything.


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## juliav

Hi Pat and :welcome: to the forum.

I have to say that I've never heard of such a contract before. When I got my little guy, I had to sign papers NOT to breed (to neuter) him and only got all the paper work after I provided proof. 

I am sure our breeder will provide a better answer for you.

Good to "meet" you and is that your puppy in the avatar, he is adorable.


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## Luvahav

It was too late after holding him to walk away, he may not have the credentials that he should have but he is loved and a part of our family and the vet. says he is extremely healthy. I have no intentions of breeding him and probably will wait a few months and see if she will back down on the neutering.
Thanks for all of the responses.


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## Laurief

Pat he is absolutely adorable!!! I always lead with my heart and not my head so I probably could not have walked away either. 
Laurie


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## pjewel

Pat,

He is adorable . . . and he's a member of your family. So whatever might or might not have been right about it, you got a sweetie pie.


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## mckennasedona

Pat, 
He's absolutely precious and as a pet, it really doesn't matter his credentials, after all. It's only if she's really going to breed him that credentials count. I don't blame you for falling in love with him He's a cutie. Did I miss his name somewhere in this thread?

Susan


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## Tom King

We wouldn't think of doing such a thing. Intact males require experienced owners or marking will always be a problem. We almost always are running on a pup until it gets old enough to tell if it is really going to be spectacular but this is not something that we ordinarily expect someone else to do for us. We don't breed a litter unless there is a possible benefit to the future of our breeding program from an individual in that litter but we normally keep the pups here until we decide.

One of the first things we show people who are interested in a pup from us is the contract. I have heard of some really bizarre contracts but have always been from puppy millers. 

Some puppy mills are now hiring professional handlers to make their operation look legit with show records so beware of that also.


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## Judy A

Wow, he is really a doll.....but I agree with Tom that having an un altered male might be quite the handful. Hopefully you're breeder will back down. What does it say in the contract if you do have him neutered?


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## Cheryl

I keep wondering about this breeder. Tell me more. I am concerned that a breeder would want to use a dog as a stud that has not meant the betterment of the breed standard. Perhaps you could have a vet state that he is "too long" or has the "wrong bite" so the breeder knows that he is not "daddy" material. 

I also wonder what happens if you do just have him neutered. You would be in ""breech of contract" but what would be the consequences?

I always thought that breeders wanted the parents to be champions. You are not even requested to show the dog. Once again, what is up with this breeder?

Rolex is one adorable puppy. I am glad that you found each other.


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## lfung5

Pat,
I understand how the heart takes over. Everything you read and learn about the breed, goes right out the window!


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## marbenv

My question would also be--did you pay full price for the pup? One breeder I talked to said I could pay less for one of her puppies if I agreed to co-own it, which meant she could show it and breed it. I didn't like the sound of that so I walked away, but this really sounds strange to me. Will you be able to get the registration papers for him or is she holding them? I think I'd talk to an attorney.

Marsha

By the way--he's a cutie!!


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## Havtahava

I have heard of some strange agreements like this, but I wouldn't go along with it, meaning that I wouldn't have signed a contract like that. What is the point of buying a dog if the breeder still claims rights to him? Did she keep herself on as co-owner? What do the AKC papers say? Is she going to collect semen or have him board at her house whenever she wants? Are you going to get to visit your own dog when she wants to use him as a stud?

If she wasn't willing to keep him herself so she could use him, what is the purpose? She wants you to deal with the frustrations of having the in tact male without her having to.

If the dog turns out to be out of standard, you may be able to have him neutered anyway, but you may need to consult an attorney on it.


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## ama0722

Pat,
I would also talk to her again. Simply gage her reaction... I would say my husband wants to have him neutered. If she freaks out, then consult an attorney. Maybe she does this type of situation to all her puppy buyers?

I actually know someone who has a havanese from what I thought was a reputable breeder. I was shocked that the breeder picks up her dog (who doesnt even look like a havanese!), picks him up for breeding when she wants. He has never been health tested... yikes! 

This is why it is so important for us puppy buyers to put in the research and not just take the words of the breeder! To read over everything and not to fall in love with the puppy (I know this is the hard part!)

Amanda


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## TnTWalter

*Pat....*

definitely find out what the consequences are. Perhaps she just has empty threats and hopes scare tactics will work. Perhaps you'll have to pay her a small fine.

He is adorable. And I KNOW from experience, that once you fall in love with the dog, all RATIONAL thought LEAVES. Been there, done that.

Trish


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## marbenv

Pat, My husband said that if you gave the breeder a nonrefundable deposit and she did not tell you the conditions under which you were buying the dog, you should be able to negate the contract. You signed it under duress!! I would definitely contact an attorney. He said you were coerced into signing or you would lose your nonrefundable deposit. I also think that you should post the name of the breeder on this forum so others will know what she is doing.  All these unreputable breeders continue to go on and on with this stuff because nobody wants to name names. Let the Hav world know when you come up against these people. They bash the backyard breeders and yet , as in the case of Amanda's friend, they are doing the exact same thing--breeding dogs that aren't health tested.:frusty: :frusty: :frusty: 

Marsha


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## Julie

Welcome to the forum Pat:wave:
That is a super cute puppy!I like the others,have never heard of a deal like this.After you have had the puppy a little while,and things have "calmed down" I would talk to the breeder again about this issue.It seems that perhaps you could talk her into changing her mind.The puppy could be neutered at 6 months...for the health of the dog.They ALL recommend this.It seems alittle nuts to me that she expects YOU to put up with him marking and humping everything in sight(i'm exaggerating)for her benefit.She should look into leasing a dog for breeding....believe it or not,they do!He will not be as easy for you to have as a pet,without him being neutered.I would have told her to take a "flying rolling doughnut" but I know you had this cute pup looking at you......

:rant: makes me angry the stuff some people do!:rant:


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## irnfit

Welcome to the forum, Pat. No wonder you couldn't resist him, he is just adorable. However, this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of. 

No testing, no showing, but she wants to breed him?! I would definitely look into what Marsha has written and consult a lawyer. Not only is it not fair to you, it is not fair to your dog, or the future buyers. This breeder needs to be exposed.


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## Luvahav

*My Sweetie Pie's Name*

I forgot to mention that my puppie's name is Rolex, he is a Watch Dog. He watches for a place to pee, poop, chew up, and eat.
He makes us smile.
Pat


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## mintchip

Pat McCleery said:


> I forgot to mention that my puppie's name is Rolex, he is a Watch Dog. He watches for a place to pee, poop, chew up, and eat.
> He makes us smile.
> Pat


tooo cute!


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## Laurief

Ohmy gosh Pat - that is the cutest name!! I just love his colors!~!~!
Laurie


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## Missy

Pat, what a cute name!!! I am sure Rolex will start watching the house too in no-time. I think Marsha's husband makes sense(is he a lawyer Marsha?) I would also just call her and discuss. It may be that all you would need to do is have a lawyer write a short letter to scare her off Also, I agree that your vet may be able to disqualify him as breeding stock. Good luck and keep us posted.


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## mckennasedona

Pat,
Rolex is a great name! He's so cute!

Susan


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## Julie

Pat--
I was thinking about this---he could have 1 testicle that didn't come down too and then he wouldn't be good for breeding...:becky:Know what I mean?Perhaps the vet could neuter him and then write that for ya!:becky:
Just a thought!


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## Luvahav

*It should be a law!*

I do so wish that I had known about this forum before I fell in love with my pup and got myself, and him, into this mess but---- 
Oh well, I have a puppy I love dearly, I will know better next time.
Pat


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## Julie

Co-ownership?I have heard alot about this,but know very little.I hope someone can help you on here.I know it can be a real mess as my co-breeders of Quincy co-owned several dogs,and I believe they are in court....YIKES!I got tied up in that disagreement with my Quincy just getting his papers.:rant:It was so frustrating:rant:......that was BEFORE they disagreed enough to end up in court.Darn mess!I hope it works out better for you.....if she co-owns the dog though,I don't think a lawyer can help you.?


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## mckennasedona

Is co-ownership always a bad thing? I'm not really sure I understand the reasons for it. I can undertand a puppy back from a future litter and I understand selling a puppy on a show contract, but I'm not sure I understand the whole co-ownership thing.

Susan


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## juliav

Pat - Rolex is the cutest name for an adorable pup. You've got a lot of good advice here, I also agree that you should try and talk to your breeder.

Susan - from what I understand (correct me if I am wrong), co-ownership is often done of show puppies. The breeder co-owns the dog with a new owner until the dog is championed. The breeder may or may not want to breed the dog. I know that my friend bought and co-owned a Shepherd until it was a finished champion, then the breeder got the dog's sperm and my friend was able to neuter the dog.


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## SMARTY

Rolex is super cute, I understand falling in love with him. I must have missed part of this thread where non refundable deposit was mentioned. Was the sire and dam tested? Is the puppy registered AKC? There is nothing wrong with co-owning a dog as long as all parties understand the contract and exactly what their requirments are. I would approach the breeder and let them explain fully what and why they want this arrangement. Could be he is has really great potential in their eyes. If you feel you are dealing with a puppy mill situation, I would expose them. Or could you be dealing with a very novice dam owner who does not know about all the things discussed on the forum.


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## LuvMyHavanese

Pat McCleery said:


> I forgot to mention that my puppie's name is Rolex, he is a Watch Dog. He watches for a place to pee, poop, chew up, and eat.
> He makes us smile.
> Pat


He is so cute!! Thats a great name. You will find that he is always 'watching' you to see where you are too!!


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## JASHavanese

Julie said:


> The puppy could be neutered at 6 months...for the health of the dog.They ALL recommend this.It seems alittle nuts to me that she expects YOU to put up with him marking and humping everything in sight(i'm exaggerating)for her benefit.


I don't require a neuter at 6 months. I let the owner decide when to neuter and ask that they wait a little longer than 6 months because of information that's come out saying that dogs neutered at a young age are more prone to health problems but I don't push my thoughts on them.
I sell to people that I trust and know that they'll do the right thing for their dog at the right time, and they have.
Males that aren't neutered aren't automatically dogs that mark. I won't let a male lift his leg, not even to pee, (I can't stand urine all over the sides of things in the yard) and have never had a male mark anything. LOL now that I said that, watch it happen...once. I'd raise so much heck he wouldn't want to do it again. :kev:


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## Havtahava

> Susan - from what I understand (correct me if I am wrong), co-ownership is often done of show puppies. The breeder co-owns the dog with a new owner until the dog is championed. The breeder may or may not want to breed the dog. I know that my friend bought and co-owned a Shepherd until it was a finished champion, then the breeder got the dog's sperm and my friend was able to neuter the dog.


 Julie, some breeders will also co-own a dog until proof of spay or neuter to ensure some sort of "ownership" on any unethically bred puppies too.


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## JASHavanese

Missy said:


> It sounds like the breeder really liked the way your pup turned out and wanted to breed the line. I have heard that breeders will often ask for rights to breed a male dog but usually not at such a young age- usually if they are thinking of them as breeding stock they will keep them until they are 5 or 6 months to evaluate them. But you could take it as a compliment. I would be curious to hear what the breeders on this forum think. Kimberly, Tom, Jan, Greg?


I'd like to give you an answer but I don't have enough information about this situation. Does the breeder intend to do and pay for all of the health testing if this puppy is show quality? Does the breeder agree that if he isn't show quality that he should be neutered? 
There are a lot of really crazy contracts out there and you should always get a copy of the contract before you go to pick up the puppy. I have a really cut and dried contract without all this added stuff.
I would get the advice of an attny before doing anything. A written contract can cost you a lot of money if broken.


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## kimoh

Jan,

I had not heard that about early neutering. What kind of health problems? Does the same hold true for spaying? What is a good age?
Sorry for all the questions, but we are hoping to find a puppy soon and would like to be sure we do the right thing when that time comes.
Thanks,
Kim


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## JASHavanese

mckennasedona said:


> Is co-ownership always a bad thing? I'm not really sure I understand the reasons for it. I can undertand a puppy back from a future litter and I understand selling a puppy on a show contract, but I'm not sure I understand the whole co-ownership thing.
> 
> Susan


No, it's not always a bad thing. You better know that person inside and out before you co own though and know that they have high ethics or you could wind up in a horrible mess. You could even lose your rights with AKC if the other person messes up.


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## JASHavanese

kimoh said:


> Jan,
> 
> I had not heard that about early neutering. What kind of health problems? Does the same hold true for spaying? What is a good age?
> Sorry for all the questions, but we are hoping to find a puppy soon and would like to be sure we do the right thing when that time comes.
> Thanks,
> Kim


Nobody knew that there were long term studies about early spay/neuter until the bill in California came out trying to force early sputers on animals. Then I believe it's a service dog club came forward with all of the research they've done over the years about it. I'm going from memory here so bear with me, I may not have it all right. They found better bone growth with a later sputer, there were less health problems with a later sputer, and shoot, I can't remember the rest. I'll have to try to find it.


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## Julie

Havtahava said:


> Julie, some breeders will also co-own a dog until proof of spay or neuter to ensure some sort of "ownership" on any unethically bred puppies too.


This isn't me........it was Juliaeace:


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## Havtahava

Ack! Sorry Julie. One little typo changes a whole lot!


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## Julie

JASHavanese said:


> I don't require a neuter at 6 months. I let the owner decide when to neuter and ask that they wait a little longer than 6 months because of information that's come out saying that dogs neutered at a young age are more prone to health problems but I don't push my thoughts on them.
> I sell to people that I trust and know that they'll do the right thing for their dog at the right time, and they have.
> Males that aren't neutered aren't automatically dogs that mark. I won't let a male lift his leg, not even to pee, (I can't stand urine all over the sides of things in the yard) and have never had a male mark anything. LOL now that I said that, watch it happen...once. I'd raise so much heck he wouldn't want to do it again. :kev:


Jan,
I agree on lifting their legs!They are always cleaner (it seems)when they don't.I'm proud to say neither one of my boys lifts or marks---knock on wood--but both were neutered at around 6 mo.of age.I really have no idea why they still squat to pee,if the early neuter had anything to do with that or not.My vet recommended early neutering.


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## Julie

No problem Kimberly!:hug::becky:


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## radar_jones

I just read the original Post here and I have to say that I would never buy a Havanese from "Anyone" Online. I remember when My Wife and I went to see our first Havanses at the very first Breeder that we went to and I remember saying to myself....Self do we really want to purchase this Havanese from this Breeder?? First Off She doesn't even test the parents for Eyes or a BAER Test and she made the "Cross My Fingers" sign when she said to me " I never Test Eyes and haven't had a problem yet......:jaw: 


I knew right there I wanted to run the other way when I was told this little tidbit of news. I also can't fathom why a Breeder would want to "Borrow" a Havanses back from the purchaser so that they can use the Dog to breed some more. I would feel Odd if someone asked me that about Radar. I would think to myself that they would want their litter to be one of a kind and if they wanted to breed they would just keep the pup for themselves so that they could monitor and test the animal often to ensure that they are getting a reliable sire free from external influences such as those that you might see from any other enviromnent other than that which would be monitored by the Breeder. 

Just My Opinion which is of course fueled by the fact that I have been on this forum long enough to know the difference between a Breeder to run from the one to run to.

Derek


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## Julie

Pat McCleery said:


> I bought my Havanese puppy from a local breeder, finding her on the internet and delighted that she was close by.
> Pat McCleery


Derek---you need to re-read this.......
finding a breeder on the internet is not wrong...nor buying from one.Not insuring the proper testing etc. COULD be.Pat ended up with a contract she was not happy with.


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## Laurief

I found my breeder on the internet. She turned out to be wonderful! I think you just need to know the right questions to ask.


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## radar_jones

Finding a Breeder online is Not Wrong I agree with that totally but getting a Havanese on such a contract is questionable at best. I never said that I would never deal with a Breeder I found online since I did find Radar's Breeeder online and dealt with her in person and she was fantastic.

I was mentioing the problems My Wife and I experienced with the Breeder that she had found that was all. Getting a Havanese with such a contract was the only problem I had.

Derek


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## Julie

radar_jones said:


> I just read the original Post here and I have to say that I would never buy a Havanese from "Anyone" Online.
> 
> Just My Opinion which is of course fueled by the fact that I have been on this forum long enough to know the difference between a Breeder to run from the one to run to.
> 
> Derek


Oh.......I guess it just wasn't that clear!eace: 
There are alot of different contracts out there,as varied as the breeders....


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## radar_jones

No harm...No foul...No Problem. The Breeder that My Wife and I originally had dealt with before we got Radar from Cheryl and David Drake was a Breeder that had absolutely told us that testing the Havanses for eyes was not necessary. Here's an e-mail she sent me after I asked about the testing below....


Below is an e-mail sent to me by the breeder that is selling the havanese. Please read. Any and all opionions are most greatly appreciated.


"No puppy will not have been in a crate yet.No I don't show so the parents 
have no titles-you will be able to get a pedigree from CKC after you receive 
the registration papers.I have never had eye problems that's something 
that is blown way up eyes aren't that big a problem in this breed I know 
full well what all the internet sites tell you But it's not that big an 
issuse.
faith"

Derek


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## Julie

:bolt::bolt::bolt:


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## Laurief

Yikes!!!


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## radar_jones

Pretty Scary Eh...

Derek


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## irnfit

I found both of mine online. How else would you find a breeder, especially if you are a novice at this? However, there are so many things you have to know before buying a puppy. Besides all the health issues we have to be concerned with, now we have to make sure to check contracts before we even see a puppy. 

I used two different breeders. I have two different but similar contracts. Neither of them required testing, but they were spay/neuter contracts.


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## JASHavanese

radar_jones said:


> I just read the original Post here and I have to say that I would never buy a Havanese from "Anyone" Online. I remember when My Wife and I went to see our first Havanses at the very first Breeder that we went to and I remember saying to myself....Self do we really want to purchase this Havanese from this Breeder?? First Off She doesn't even test the parents for Eyes or a BAER Test and she made the "Cross My Fingers" sign when she said to me " I never Test Eyes and haven't had a problem yet......:jaw:
> I knew right there I wanted to run the other way when I was told this little tidbit of news. I also can't fathom why a Breeder would want to "Borrow" a Havanses back from the purchaser so that they can use the Dog to breed some more. I would feel Odd if someone asked me that about Radar. I would think to myself that they would want their litter to be one of a kind and if they wanted to breed they would just keep the pup for themselves so that they could monitor and test the animal often to ensure that they are getting a reliable sire free from external influences such as those that you might see from any other enviromnent other than that which would be monitored by the Breeder.
> 
> Just My Opinion which is of course fueled by the fact that I have been on this forum long enough to know the difference between a Breeder to run from the one to run to.
> 
> Derek


Derek, I'm glad you ran the other way when the breeder said they didn't health test.
About using the male for a stud for a litter, a while ago I thought that was loony toons until I talked to a breeder I respect and they are asking for a stud service with a puppy they placed. I asked them about it and the explanation I got was that they could only have a couple of dogs in their home, some places have a 2 dog restriction, and they were selling a show quality male to a pet buyer for a reduced amount of money to get that one time stud service to keep their lines going and would health test him before using him. This is a person I would buy a dog from sight unseen and trust their judgment, so then I had to sit down and do some thinking about it.
I can see why they're doing it and as long as the breeder is up front with the buyer and has talked openly and honestly to them I don't have a problem with it. There are many show quality dogs in pet homes because the seller felt that was the best home for the puppy. 
I don't think I'd want to get into a situation like that, but I can understand why some do it......not all, but some.


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## lfung5

Yikes is an understatement! I also think there are a ton of great breeders you can find online. Especially since there might nor be a good breeder in your area. I think it's a good idea to visit the breeder if at all possible. If not, you can find out about a breeders reputation if you do your research........this forum!LOL!


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## radar_jones

I totally agree with you. I can see how someone would want to use a Male Hav for stud service if they were limited on how much space they had in their own apartment. 

The only problem I would have with that as a Breeder is that if I couldn't personally attend to the Hav myself to ensure that I was the one personally developing a diet for the animal then I couldn't prepare for things like if the Hav was given certain food which would perhaps impact their health such as very fatty foods or perhaps the Hav had an allergic reaction to a food I wasn't aware of. 

I can see the health testing aleviating some of the problems that might occur with having the Hav at another place while they are growing up however as far as undue stress occuring as a result of being moved from one place to another for however many times as it would take to conceive might be an issue depending on the arrangement between the Co-owners. Are they leaving the Hav at the Breeders until the Deed is Done So-To-Speak or is there a family bond there that would prevent the Hav from being away from the family for so long if it is that long.

It's always a tricky situation sometimes which requires a certain finess and amicable arrangment among all involved.

Derek


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## JASHavanese

radar_jones said:


> I totally agree with you. I can see how someone would want to use a Male Hav for stud service if they were limited on how much space they had in their own apartment.
> 
> It's always a tricky situation sometimes which requires a certain finess and amicable arrangment among all involved.
> 
> Derek


I don't really foresee getting into a situation like this, but if I did, I'd talk hours and hours with the breeder and would get every single tiny detail in writing and I'd also have it stipulated that if my vet felt there was one thing wrong with the dog, it could be spayed. 
I think one of the really important things between a breeder and a buyer is honesty and a good relationship. Without that, all can be in a bad situation.


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## radar_jones

That is very true....You need that trusting situation because so many things can be kept secret. If that happens then you haven't got total honesty and when you are dealing with a potentially very costly situation it can really come back to bite you.

Derel


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## marbenv

The problem I see here is Pat wasn't told this upfront. And did she actually get the dog for less than the going rate? And was she required to give the breeder a nonrefundable deposit and was not told the terms of the sale? Only Pat has those answers. And no, Missy, my husband isn't a lawyer--just wishes he was!:biggrin1: --or maybe should have been--he has that kind of a mind!--or maybe that's because he grew up in NY where nobody trusts nobody! As a Midwesterner, I stupidly trust everybody--so we balance each other out!eace: 

Marsha


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## Jane

Julie said:


> Jan,
> I agree on lifting their legs!They are always cleaner (it seems)when they don't.I'm proud to say neither one of my boys lifts or marks---knock on wood--but both were neutered at around 6 mo.of age.I really have no idea why they still squat to pee,if the early neuter had anything to do with that or not.My vet recommended early neutering.


I thought I was safe too on the "leg lifting" thing with Lincoln....he was neutered extremely early (12 wks) and never lifted...until he stayed with his brother for a few days and learned something new :gossip: And he was almost 2 years old at the time!!

He's a pretty clumsy marker though....he can only do it with his left side facing the thing he's marking and he will often tip over because he loses his balance


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## Sunnygirl

JASHavanese said:


> Males that aren't neutered aren't automatically dogs that mark. I won't let a male lift his leg, not even to pee, (I can't stand urine all over the sides of things in the yard) and have never had a male mark anything. LOL now that I said that, watch it happen...once. I'd raise so much heck he wouldn't want to do it again. :kev:


My little guy is 17 weeks old and he hasn't lifted his leg yet - he's a squatter and I hope to keep it that way. How do you keep your boys from lifting their legs? I know the day is going to come and I don't know what, if anything, to do to discourage the leg lifting. He will be neutered, but not before 6 months.


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## lfung5

I don't know the answer to that. All my guys mark outside, even my girl! If they tried inside, I think I would scream very loud. That would probably scare them enough never to do it again!


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## irnfit

Kodi always lifted his leg, except when he was very little. He doesn't do it in the house, but every tree or pole is fair game. He uses a pee pad whenever he needs to go in the house. Shelby doesn't mark, but I had a lab/husky female that had to pee on everything on our walks.


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## Havtahava

That's exactly what I did Linda. I screamed and clapped my hands together loudly. It must have sounded crazy though because my husband and daughter both came from the back of the house to see what happened, although they both suspected it because that had been my planned reaction all along. I just felt bad for the neighbors because it was 7am on a Saturday and I had my kitchen windows & door open and I know they had to hear it. :laugh: It worked though!


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## Luvahav

marbenv said:


> The problem I see here is Pat wasn't told this upfront. And did she actually get the dog for less than the going rate? And was she required to give the breeder a nonrefundable deposit and was not told the terms of the sale? Only Pat has those answers. And no, Missy, my husband isn't a lawyer--just wishes he was!:biggrin1: --or maybe should have been--he has that kind of a mind!--or maybe that's because he grew up in NY where nobody trusts nobody! As a Midwesterner, I stupidly trust everybody--so we balance each other out!eace:
> 
> Marsha


Marsha, yes, I did buy the dog at a discount, (the price that she was asking)but that was not the reason I bought him. The breeder was the only one that I found close by and was delighted she was close. There was a non refundable deposit and no mention of any kind of a contract until I went to pick the puppy up. She apparantly had it drawn up on her computer and it showed on the contract, a receipt for the deposit (cash) and for the balance (cash) along with the other stipulations. My husband also,trusts no-one ( a former banker) and until I confessed on this forum and told him about it--he had no idea what I had done for the love of a puppy. He is still shaking his head! I think I will contact an attorney that I know and let her take a look at it and let it ride.
He has also fallen in love with Rolex--he has bird dogs and thought those were the only breeds to have, but now-----
Thank you everyone for all of the interest in mine and Rolex's plight. I will let you know what happens, meanwhile, he knows he is loved.
Pat


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## brandy

I think it was very wrong of her to sell the puppy that way. It sounds like she waited until you fell in love then put these stipulations you on you. Not only is that not fair but I feel it's very dishonest. Have you talked with her about your concerns? Why don't you talk to her and STRESS your feelings about the way you were treated and that you don't feel that is in the best interest of you or the puppy and see if you can work something out before going to a lawyer. Maybe when she becomes aware of your feelings and opinions on this issue she will realize your not going to just willingly hand over your dog for a week or however long for her to breed him, and hopefully she is breeding only screened healthy females that wont pass on any diseases to your boy, and then she will change her mind. All sorts of things can go wrong here! Once a Havanese or any dog for that matter is bred they become a different dog (different habits and interests that is). If she wont agree with you and back down then obviously your going to have to consider your options.Hold your guns and stand behind your opinion. Good luck.


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## marbenv

Pat,

That's too bad. I think she knew exactly what she was doing, having you fall in love with the puppy first and not telling you her conditions for selling you the pup. Maybe if you threaten to expose her on this forum with who knows how many members (Melissa would know), she will be afraid of getting a bad rep and won't be able to pull her little trick on anyone else. :nono: Maybe she'll be afraid that she won't be able to sell her dogs if people find out what she's doing. I think it's a good idea to have your attorney look at the contract. Maybe she can find a loophole or maybe the woman really has no recourse if you go ahead and get him neutered. What could she do about it? She wouldn't want the dog back, because she couldn't breed him. I guess she could sue you for breech of contract, but that would cost her a lot of money, too. I agree with everyone else. Try to talk to her and reason with her. Hopefully she'll listen. Let us know what happens.

Marsha


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## JASHavanese

Sunnygirl said:


> My little guy is 17 weeks old and he hasn't lifted his leg yet - he's a squatter and I hope to keep it that way. How do you keep your boys from lifting their legs? I know the day is going to come and I don't know what, if anything, to do to discourage the leg lifting. He will be neutered, but not before 6 months.


Every time your dog goes out to potty, have them on leash and if they start to lift their leg, put the leg down and tell them NO then praise the heck out of them when they squat.


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## jillnors2

> Every time your dog goes out to potty, have them on leash and if they start to lift their leg, put the leg down and tell them NO then praise the heck out of them when they squat.
> __________________


Why would you want to do this? I don't understand, it's natural for a male to lift his leg.


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## maryam187

jillnors2, because rather often than seldom they miss their aim, which can be very annoying. Kind of like why you want human men sit and pee too :biggrin1: I'm sure there are other reasons too.


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## juliav

I find it very amusing that Bugsy will usually lean forward/squat to do his business in my backyard, but will usually lift his leg and mark outside.


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## good buddy

jillnors2 said:


> Why would you want to do this? I don't understand, it's natural for a male to lift his leg.


Because when my boy squats he waters a small spot on the lawn. When he did the leg lift he sprayed a larger patch which included wetting his tummy hair. I don't much like marking. I don't want pee on the outside of my house, down the mailbox post or anywhere else. If your male marks spots around you house then I would think another male would want to mark over these areas and then your dog and that dog... ugh...pee everywhere.


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## leena365

Welcome Pat. My breeder also gave me pet price for my adorable cuties and ask that I have them spayed and neutered and sign a contract to that affect. Kashi was show dog material but Miya was the runt of the litter and too small to breed. I did just that today. They look so uncomfortable with their elizabethan collars on their heads. I hope they are able to move around and eat and drink alright as they have to keep it on until the 2nd of Jan.


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