# Last Post



## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

It's been a while since I posted and that's because I gave Migo back to his breeder. I have been having a really tough time about it. Y'all already knew about his two luxating patellas, but then his signs of tracheal collapse became more frequent. Even then I wasn't going to give him back. 

Our classes were becoming more and more difficult as for some reason everything would cause him stress, especially other dogs. I would set up barriers so that he could not see the other dogs, but over the weeks he became more anxious. He still did very well, I thought that he just didn't like/feel comfortable around other dogs. Fine by me, I could mostly control this. But then at our home (we live in an apartment) noises that he had always heard (someone going up the stairs, kitchen noises, etc) were making him extremely uncomfortable. He had also never liked our roommate who spends most of his time in his room, but around this time he developed new behaviors such as growling and barking at the roommate's door to tell him to get out of his space. For his anxiety at this time I was using CBD oil, Zylkene (vet rec), calming sprays/music, etc for about three weeks and nothing seemed to help. For a couple months I was treating for the appropriate behaviors (when he was calm and would leave it, etc) with no improvement. I decided it was time to hire a pro for a private consultation.

It was clear to the professional trainer (found through Karen Pryor academy search and highly recommended by a vet who I trusted) that Migo has generalized anxiety and that I would have to find a way to get him under the threshold so that counter conditioning could work as the methods I used were good but he just couldn't relax. We were advised to see a behaviorist for medication and she developed a plan for him. It would be a tough process and she admitted that he would likely never be a normal dog who could handle traveling, stimulating environments, etc.

Around this time his breeder emailed me saying that she would finally refund a deposit I had given her months ago for a future puppy. I asked for the deposit back after I found that she had blatantly lied about health testing and found that Migo's sire is his mother's sire as well. She got extremely defensive when I asked her about these things and yelled at me via email about how spoiled rotten I am. Confused and highly annoyed, I left her alone except for the one email a month reminding her that she offered me a refund for the deposit and I had yet to receive it.

She also said that she wanted to buy Migo back since I was "so unhappy with the puppy" I got from her. I love Migo, he is a very sweet dog and I will never be unhappy with him. I was unhappy that I made a mistake with the breeder I had chose.

At this point though, I knew that keeping Migo would mean that I would not reach my goals in dog ownership. I specifically wanted to do obedience and I don't think that environment would be good for him. Sure, we can train at home or a place in which he's comfortable and he did great. I would not put him in a ring though. I will not put a dog in an environment that he feels uncomfortable in solely because I want a title. I'm not selfish. 

This also includes traveling. I actually made us leave my partner's mom's house early during our Thanksgiving visit because poor Migo was so stressed the entire time. Future traveling and even having others over at our place looked grim. I could only sometimes get him to relax when we were at home. I was also about to spend who knows how much money in future surgeries. 

So I decided that keeping Migo was no longer an option for me. I let her buy him back. I strongly considered talking to a rescue, except the contract said I would owe her $10K if I didn't follow it (give him back to her). 

I got Migo from Way Out West Havanese. While she did end up giving me my deposit back, and she did refund Migo's purchase price to me (with hardly a week deadline to pressure me to make the decision), I want to warn people of my experience.

I don't have any plans to add another Hav to my home. I have talked to some really great breeders as I struggled in dealing with Way Out West, but I don't think I can have another anytime soon. With that said, I do plan to get another puppy.. the right way. For now though I will soon volunteer at a local rescue. One of the dog trainer's I use is in charge of their training department, and I'll be working with dogs who need behavior modification to improve their chance of getting adopted. I have been talking with breeders involved with my region's Golden Retriever club, and I may get on a wait list for late 2018.

I doubt I'll be on after this for at least a long while. I wish you all the best.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

I'm very sorry to hear your story. I wish you the very best.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Thank you for sharing your story and informative post, about all you have dealt with, with you sweet Migo. I am sure that your heart is broken. You had a terrible choice, and I'm so sorry for all you have to deal with, and the sadness you have left.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I'm so sorry that you had to go through this, and I know you tried to do your best for Migo. I hope the breeder fixes his patellas and then finds a home for him with a little old lady who wants nothing more than a lap dog/house pet. It sounds like that's what he needs. Good luck in your search for the "right" dog, but please know that this is NOT a typical experience with a well bred Havanese puppy.


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## Tux's Mom (May 24, 2016)

My heart goes out to you because you sound like the kind of person who would go to extraordinary lengths to do the right thing for your dog. I had the same experience, but kept Hanna (our first Havanese). It was thirteen years of vet visits and a poor dog who never really felt well. Choosing a dog first for health and temperament (good breeding) is key to a happy co-existence. 

My opinion for what it is worth is that good breeders are like gold. Selective and careful breeding practices eliminate or lower the risks of producing a pet that would suffer with a myriad of health issues. A lot of "rescues" are rejected pets that were purchased from pet stores or backyard breeders, that at the outset are doomed to illness, psychological issues, and misery for the dog as well as the unsuspecting owner. 

A well bred dog involves a lot of upfront expense to the breeder in selective breeding, health exams, etc. The high price one pays is well worth it if you consider 15-20 years of a healthy lifespan for your adopted fur baby. Considering the ramifications, one would do well to spend a lot of time and energy doing due diligence and gathering a LOT of good referrals. 

Patience is required, because AFTER you find your breeder options, there is usually a WAITING list......for good reason.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

You made the right decision, all the best in the future.


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## Henry&Kate (Mar 29, 2017)

My heart goes out to you Karidyne. Such a difficult decision. It sounds like you've made the right decision for you and for Migo. As Karen said, hopefully the breeder will find the right home for him. Good luck.


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## Scarlett's mom (Feb 14, 2017)

Oh this made me so sad. I am so sorry for what you have had to deal with. I wish you the best in whatever you decide to do.


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## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

krandall said:


> I'm so sorry that you had to go through this, and I now you tried to do your best for Migo. I hope the breeder fixes his patellas and then finds a home for him with a little old lady who wants nothing more than a lap dog/house pet. It sounds like that's what he needs. Good luck in your search for the "right" dog, but please know that this is NOT a typical experience with a well bred Havanese puppy.


Yes, the breeder (the good one) who helped me through this said that Migo was not representative of a well bred Havanese. I still love the Havanese, but a few things lead me towards a Golden now. I recently found that I am having seizures. They are not strong and hopefully won't get that bad if I start medication now. There's also a chance that they will not get worse even without meds, but I worry about falling on a tiny dog. :-( I don't plan on needing a service dog by any means, but a larger dog could be potentially useful as I am on the smaller side myself.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

karidyne said:


> Yes, the breeder (the good one) who helped me through this said that Migo was not representative of a well bred Havanese. I still love the Havanese, but a few things lead me towards a Golden now. I recently found that I am having seizures. They are not strong and hopefully won't get that bad if I start medication now. There's also a chance that they will not get worse even without meds, but I worry about falling on a tiny dog. :-( I don't plan on needing a service dog by any means, but a larger dog could be potentially useful as I am on the smaller side myself.


Best of luck to you all the way around. Golden are wonderful dogs IF you (same as Havanese) find a good breeder who emphasizes health and temperament. As with Havanese, even though Goldens are a breed known for wonderful, biddable temperaments, there are too many of them cropping up with temperament problems too.

They certainly are a top pick for someone who wants to do competitive obedience... Look at the NOC line-ups and its tons of Goldens, a bunch of Border Collies and Labs and... a teeny smattering of other breeds.


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## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

Tux's Mom said:


> My heart goes out to you because you sound like the kind of person who would go to extraordinary lengths to do the right thing for your dog. I had the same experience, but kept Hanna (our first Havanese). It was thirteen years of vet visits and a poor dog who never really felt well. Choosing a dog first for health and temperament (good breeding) is key to a happy co-existence.
> 
> My opinion for what it is worth is that good breeders are like gold. Selective and careful breeding practices eliminate or lower the risks of producing a pet that would suffer with a myriad of health issues. A lot of "rescues" are rejected pets that were purchased from pet stores or backyard breeders, that at the outset are doomed to illness, psychological issues, and misery for the dog as well as the unsuspecting owner.
> 
> ...


Lots of great information, and I would like to add some.

When I looked on the OFA for her dogs, I did find that there were _some_ who passed all of the right tests. I saw that the dam and sire of Migo were blank. Even if the breeder has some dogs with results published, that's not good enough. She said that she used a homeopathic vet now who would not put them under as she didn't feel comfortable with that and "had to save where [she] can" so didn't send the results to the OFA. I later found out that it's not required to put them under, and the fee to have the OFA publish a rating is quite cheap. Do NOT trust a breeder who only publishes some of their dog's results. This likely means that the ones they didn't publish failed.

His dam was 1 year 3 months when Migo was born. This means that this was her first heat. :-( She was still a puppy. There are so many signs looking back..

She sent me an overwhelming amount of information when I was added onto her wait list for Migo. There was a long list of people with their numbers to call who would recommend her. She had document after document about vaccines, diet, appropriate socialization, etc. That means she's a good breeder right? No, don't let this outweigh the importance of health testing, visiting the breeder's home and verifying that her dogs have been successful in dog sports, obedience, etc.

I paid $1500 for Migo which as I understand now is under what most reputable breeders charge.

Honestly, I won't go through another breeder unless they are associated with the appropriate clubs ([Breed] Club of America as well as regional clubs) or one that is highly recommended by one of those breeders. I also want the breeder to have a program for their litters (Puppy Culture, Avidog, or similar).


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

karidyne said:


> Honestly, I won't go through another breeder unless they are associated with the appropriate clubs ([Breed] Club of America as well as regional clubs) or one that is highly recommended by one of those breeders. I also want the breeder to have a program for their litters (Puppy Culture, Avidog, or similar).


Do keep in mind that many breeders who are breed parent club members choose to forgo the additional service of breeder referral listing. While both of my boys come from wonderful breeders, only one is on the HCA referral, and the one who I will wholeheartedly and enthusiastically recommend is the one that is not. In turn, not every breeder listed in those referrals is great. I prefer to look to the referral lists of local clubs as that shows great breed involvement and they are more heavily monitored (a breeder was just removed from our club's site after breeding dogs under 2 multiple times, for example). Just a piece of advice in your (or anyone's) future searches.

Sorry this situation didn't have a happy ending. Best of luck in your future endeavors. We hope you come back to the Havanese breed one day. For every awful experience, there are 20+ good ones.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

karidyne said:


> Lots of great information, and I would like to add some.
> 
> When I looked on the OFA for her dogs, I did find that there were _some_ who passed all of the right tests. I saw that the dam and sire of Migo were blank. Even if the breeder has some dogs with results published, that's not good enough. She said that she used a homeopathic vet now who would not put them under as she didn't feel comfortable with that and "had to save where [she] can" so didn't send the results to the OFA. I later found out that it's not required to put them under, and the fee to have the OFA publish a rating is quite cheap. Do NOT trust a breeder who only publishes some of their dog's results. This likely means that the ones they didn't publish failed.
> 
> ...


Just be aware that there some breeders that are "AKC Breeders of Merit" that I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. I used to think that was important. That is NOT a great way of determining whether a breeder is doing what they should. Having met a few of the worse "Breeders of Merit", I take that one with a grain of salt now.

Recommendations (especially if there are a a lot of them, and from sports and show people and other good breeders that I trust) mean a LOT more to me than what organizations they belong to. ...And in a situation like yours or mine, it is imperative that other dogs in this lines are doing well in the sports I am interested in. If I were looking for a lap dog/pet, I'd be looking for relatives that are therapy dogs.

As far as Puppy Culture, Avidog etc. are concerned, I think it is imperative that breeders be doing early stimulation, LOTS of exposure to lots of things, early socialization, etc. I DON'T think it's necessary that they follow one of these programs specifically or slavishly. Mostly, I think, because I know some wonderful breeders who were doing much of this stuff before there WERE these commercial "programs". I DO think that a breeder should be willing and able to have an intelligent conversation on what they do with their puppies when. My experience is that the breeders who are interested in raising well balanced puppies, especially those that will be going to sport homes, are MORE than willing to tell you what they are doing, when and how. If it's important to me, I want it to be important to them too. People who are just interested in churning out litters (marginal) pet puppies for money will think that keeping the litter in the living room and "loving them up" regularly is all that is necessary.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KarMar said:


> Do keep in mind that many breeders who are breed parent club members choose to forgo the additional service of breeder referral listing. While both of my boys come from wonderful breeders, only one is on the HCA referral, and the one who I will wholeheartedly and enthusiastically recommend is the one that is not. In turn, not every breeder listed in those referrals is great.


I am pretty sure Kodi and Pixel's breeder doesn't use the HCA referral listing. Panda's breeder did for Panda's litter... her first, and probably won't do it again. Many of the calls she got through the referral listing were NOT quality homes. In fact, she was DELUGED with requests for "Hava Poos". She would explain that GOOD breeders do not produce cross breeds, and the people would say, "I don't want a cross breed, I want a Hava Poo!" LOL!


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

krandall said:


> In fact, she was DELUGED with requests for "Hava Poos". She would explain that GOOD breeders do not produce cross breeds, and the people would say, "I don't want a cross breed, I want a Hava Poo!" LOL!


:doh: :frusty:


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## LoriJack (Aug 21, 2017)

karidyne said:


> It's been a while since I posted and that's because I gave Migo back to his breeder. I have been having a really tough time about it. Y'all already knew about his two luxating patellas, but then his signs of tracheal collapse became more frequent. Even then I wasn't going to give him back.
> 
> Our classes were becoming more and more difficult as for some reason everything would cause him stress, especially other dogs. I would set up barriers so that he could not see the other dogs, but over the weeks he became more anxious. He still did very well, I thought that he just didn't like/feel comfortable around other dogs. Fine by me, I could mostly control this. But then at our home (we live in an apartment) noises that he had always heard (someone going up the stairs, kitchen noises, etc) were making him extremely uncomfortable. He had also never liked our roommate who spends most of his time in his room, but around this time he developed new behaviors such as growling and barking at the roommate's door to tell him to get out of his space. For his anxiety at this time I was using CBD oil, Zylkene (vet rec), calming sprays/music, etc for about three weeks and nothing seemed to help. For a couple months I was treating for the appropriate behaviors (when he was calm and would leave it, etc) with no improvement. I decided it was time to hire a pro for a private consultation.
> 
> ...


I am so sorry that your experience with Migo went badly. You will find your forever dog when the time is right and will be better equipped to make a more informed choice. Best wishes to you.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

krandall said:


> I am pretty sure Kodi and Pixel's breeder doesn't use the HCA referral listing. Panda's breeder did for Panda's litter... her first, and probably won't do it again.


I know that Starborn is on the forum, but would you know how these quality breeders advertise? I imagine word of mouth is sufficient for their wait list. In this case I imagine that being involved with the local club and its activities would be the only way a person would become aware of the litter. I bet breeders on the local club listings get several emails a day. This makes me extremely grateful for the lady who spent an hour on the phone with me as I vented about my situation with Migo.

I completely agree about Breeder of Merit by the way. I've learned that it practically means nothing when trying to evaluate a breeder unfortunately. With plans like PC though, I think it's an excellent resource for prospective buyers to use in their search for the right breeder. Because I am not nearly as experienced as someone whose been active in their local club and breed for years, I learned enough from the video to justify the $70. I've spent a LOT more on single textbooks in my hobby. With that said, I have found breeders on Puppy Culture's breeder map that I would not at all consider..

I'm going to start attending my regions GR club meetings so that I can network, volunteer and get that experience. I searched a while back and couldn't find one here for Havanese. :-/


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## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

I have a friend whose 15 year old miniature Poodle just died from cancer. The couple is now talking about getting a dog from a good breeder. They say they are wanting a Bernedoodle.. It took me a second just to figure out what she was talking about. I'm going to talk to them about "cross breeds" sometime, but I'm trying to figure out how to talk about it effectively. I want to be encouraging, not overwhelming with "Good breeders don't breed Bernedoodles", because in the end they are going to buy a dog. Ya know?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

karidyne said:


> I know that Starborn is on the forum, but would you know how these quality breeders advertise? I imagine word of mouth is sufficient for their wait list. In this case I imagine that being involved with the local club and its activities would be the only way a person would become aware of the litter. I bet breeders on the local club listings get several emails a day. This makes me extremely grateful for the lady who spent an hour on the phone with me as I vented about my situation with Migo.
> 
> I completely agree about Breeder of Merit by the way. I've learned that it practically means nothing when trying to evaluate a breeder unfortunately. With plans like PC though, I think it's an excellent resource for prospective buyers to use in their search for the right breeder. Because I am not nearly as experienced as someone whose been active in their local club and breed for years, I learned enough from the video to justify the $70. I've spent a LOT more on single textbooks in my hobby. With that said, I have found breeders on Puppy Culture's breeder map that I would not at all consider..
> 
> I'm going to start attending my regions GR club meetings so that I can network, volunteer and get that experience. I searched a while back and couldn't find one here for Havanese. :-/


Yes, you can learn who is who to some extent through local breed clubs. And word of mouth and groups like this can help too. Also get on the FB pages for the sports and type of training you are interested in. (for instance the +R obedience groups, and Fenzi Academy groups) We have a GREAT havanese sports group on FB, but that's not going to help you much with GR! LOL!

Get involved (ESPECIALLY) with your local TRAINING clubs rather than conformation/breed/dog show clubs. There will be enough Golden contacts that you can make through them (especially since Goldens are such a popular performance breed) that you should be able to navigate the Golden breeder world.

PC groups will tell you who has drunk the whole PC Kool-aid (which I don't think is ALL necessary, personally) but they re also perfectly happy to support designer and mixed breed "breeders", as long as they follow PC practices. They don't have to do ay of the OTHER things a good breeder should... So that's not a complete answer either. It's just another aspect that you should (for sure!) consider in your search.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

karidyne said:


> I have a friend whose 15 year old miniature Poodle just died from cancer. The couple is now talking about getting a dog from a good breeder. They say they are wanting a Bernedoodle.. It took me a second just to figure out what she was talking about. I'm going to talk to them about "cross breeds" sometime, but I'm trying to figure out how to talk about it effectively. I want to be encouraging, not overwhelming with "Good breeders don't breed Bernedoodles", because in the end they are going to buy a dog. Ya know?


And ANYTHING that is half Berner is going to have major health problems. A dog dying of cancer at 25 was not exactly "snuffed out in the prime of life"! A standard Poodle from a GOOD of that age would be an OLD dog... a Berner of that age is just about unheard of. They are lucky to make it to 7 or 8.

Point out to them that a good standard poodle breeder won't allow their dogs to be bred to a Berner. So they would be starting with poor quality Poodle genes on one side, and then mixing it with a breed that, even the BEST breeders have trouble getting any longevity from.

Berners are lovely dogs. But they make Cavaliers look good, genetically speaking.


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

My thoughts are with you and I am sorry for this painful loss and learning experience.


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## Teddy Bear (Apr 11, 2015)

karidyne said:


> I don't have any plans to add another Hav to my home. I have talked to some really great breeders as I struggled in dealing with Way Out West, but I don't think I can have another anytime soon. With that said, I do plan to get another puppy.. the right way. For now though I will soon volunteer at a local rescue. One of the dog trainer's I use is in charge of their training department, and I'll be working with dogs who need behavior modification to improve their chance of getting adopted. I have been talking with breeders involved with my region's Golden Retriever club, and I may get on a wait list for late 2018.
> .


Sorry fr your experience with Migo. Hope he finds a happy forever home.

Why not consider adopting from the dog rescue center? you might find a really good dog whilst volunteering there that just need's a loving home. May not be a pure breed but mixed breeds tend to be healthier anyway!

If you decide to go with a golden retriever, they're amazing dogs.
Good luck!


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## Cmward (Jun 28, 2017)

karidyne said:


> Lots of great information, and I would like to add some.
> 
> *When I looked on the OFA for her dogs, I did find that there were some who passed all of the right tests. I saw that the dam and sire of Migo were blank. Even if the breeder has some dogs with results published, that's not good enough. She said that she used a homeopathic vet now who would not put them under as she didn't feel comfortable with that and "had to save where [she] can" so didn't send the results to the OFA. I later found out that it's not required to put them under, and the fee to have the OFA publish a rating is quite cheap. Do NOT trust a breeder who only publishes some of their dog's results. This likely means that the ones they didn't publish failed.*
> 
> ...


First, I just wanted to say I'm so sorry for what you went through. I hope it has a happy ending for Migo and you of course...You'll remember it much longer than little Migo.

Second, the parts I bolded above are things I've encountered first hand with several "reputable breeders" that are members of their national and regional breed clubs. Some have been listed in the breeder referral some not. I've heard "I do have copies of all of their tests, I just don't want to pay the fee to OFA" one breeder who talks quite a bit about the importance of health testing on her site changed her tune on the phone. I submitted a puppy application and when we spoke on phone and I asked about the Sire/Dam names so I could check OFA she said "well, the dam hasn't been tested yet, because she just turned two and I haven't gotten around to it". She got around to planning a breeding but not even prelim testing because "she knows her lines". Another gave me the call names but when I inquired about a missing hip score for the Dam I was told she was "mildly dysplastic but it isn't a big deal in a toy breed".

As has been said on this site so many times, good breeders are like gold. Actually probably much harder to find. I hope you find a new pup when you are ready to begin the search again.


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