# Started Clomicalm



## mom23girls (Nov 26, 2007)

Hi...just wantd to give an update on Amy. I called the vet b/c her messing in the house is getting worse again. She's now doing it 2 to 3 times A DAY. We've tried every trick in the book, as you all know & this is pretty much our last option. The vet is 100% certain that it's behavioral. I'm praying this works....I've been cleaning up after her since last November & I'm literally at my wits end.

We had our carpets cleaned and sanitized (again) yesterday. I kept Amy in the mudroom b/c I wanted to wait until they were dry before she messed on them again. It was bedtime, so I walked her outside & then went upstairs. She follwed me, but in the split second it took for me to get to the top of the stairs, she ran in and peed (the size of a quarter) on the newly cleaned rug. 

Most times, when I walk her, she will refuse to walk and simply sit down in the road & I have to drag her back. then, she'll go crap on the floor. 

Any suggestions? I don't want to get rid of her after all the hard work we've put in, but I can't have my house used as a toilet & this is just blantant disrespect on her part. I can't help but feel angry at her b/c of all the time, energy and money we've put into trying to help her...not to metion that my kids love her & it would break their hearts to get rid of her. 

I know I've been though this a million times before, but any ideas or success stories about Clomicalm would be GREATLY appreciated!!! Thanks.....


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Jen, I don't know anything about Clomicalm, but can you remind us - how old is Amy? Does she have free reign of the house?

I know you said you've tried every trick in the book, but it sounds like it is time to take her back to basic restriction 101 and severely limit her access to the house. Even when you let her out, I think you need to pick her up and carry her out to the area where you want her to go potty. (No emotion at all up to this point.) Tell her to go potty and when she eliminates, then she gets praise (verbal and/or treats - whatever motivates her). 

This does two things - it teaches her where the good rewards come from and it greatly reduces your frustration.

Dogs are all motivated by pleasure. She needs to find GREAT pleasure in something and see that is the consistent way to get it. At this point, she may be getting more "pleasure" by decorating your house with her scent. You may dislike this routine (extreme restriction) for a bit and she may get upset over it, but she will quickly see where her rewards lie and it will retrain her.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Havtahava said:


> Jen, I don't know anything about Clomicalm, but can you remind us - how old is Amy? Does she have free reign of the house?
> 
> I know you said you've tried every trick in the book, but it sounds like it is time to take her back to basic restriction 101 and severely limit her access to the house. Even when you let her out, I think you need to pick her up and carry her out to the area where you want her to go potty. (No emotion at all up to this point.) Tell her to go potty and when she eliminates, then she gets praise (verbal and/or treats - whatever motivates her).
> 
> ...


I totally agree with that.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I think the severly limiting is probably the best way to do. Another thing have you tried the britches on her? I know a lot of people with males that mark in the house do the belly band and while it doesn't solve your situation if you can't restrict her, maybe you could try that approach?


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## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

ditto! back to basics! how old is your pup? what are you feeding your dog? that might be contributing to it, could she have crystals?


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## mom23girls (Nov 26, 2007)

Kimberly, Amy is 5 1/2 years old now & the vet seems to feel that she missed out on a vital "window of opportunity" in her early years b/c she was crated all the time. (this is before we got her) I will keep her in the mudroom as much as possible when I can't be watching her. It's hard with small children & a crazy life, even without adding all these issues on top of it! She gets upset being in the mudroom but it's better than the altenative.

The wierd thing is that she sometimes goes weeks w/o an accident & then all of sudden, she starts acting strange & the cycle starts again. Before she was spayed,we attributed it to hormones, but I guess that wasn't the case.

Thank you for your help!


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## mom23girls (Nov 26, 2007)

Little Buddy....She's eating food by Wellness, Core protein. She's been on that since we got her & had no digestive issues yet. We've had her checked to rule out physical problems several times as well. Thanks!


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

Jen,
Just want to say that I give you lots of credit for trying everything that you have with Amy. You have shown such patience and committment.

We've followed your journey since you first got Amy. I am sorry you have had such a difficult experience. I'm sure it is not what you expected when you decided to get a Havanese.

Too bad your breeder kept her in a crate so much at the critical learning time.
I hope this new Clomicalm helps. 

My best,


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Jen, I'm so sorry to hear that you've been struggling with Amy again. I noticed you hadn't posted that much lately but assumed all was well. 

How about restricting her activity in an xpen that can be located somewhere more central in the house vs. the mudroom? You could put it in a place that doesn't have carpet, or pick up a vinyl flooring remnant to slip under it. 

I hope you will find something that helps. :hug:


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## LuvCicero (Mar 31, 2008)

I agree with Kimberly. I think it's back to basic re-training. You just can't give her a chance to use your home at all. It is hard work, but I do think she can learn what you like and don't like. Good luck, I hope she will understand soon.


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## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

i can't believe there's nothing that can be done. there has to be a solution for you. i know a few years ago i had a trainer work with me and my dog using the gentle leader. it was an awful experience for both me and my dog, i kept telling the trainer this wasn't working, the situation was creating such stress for my dog, she wouldn't listen. i brought in a behaviorist a few years later, we tried the gentle leader again and she saw my dogs reaction to it, long and short, she said my dog was ruined and the trauma of this gentle leader was so bad we could never us it as a training tool ever agian however, there were other ways positive ways to trian my dog to walk nice on a leash. my point is, and i am NO expert on dogs but just because one way will never work again, that doesn't mean there's not another option for you. i wish i knew what it was because i can only imagine how difficult this has been for you. what about trainig him to ring a bell when he goes out, or pepe pads, or and don't think i'm crazy but doggy diappers. will this med.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I forgot to say one thing up above in addition to my reasons for strict confinement and then picking her up to take her outside. You want to set her up for success. She has created a pattern of disappointment and failure in regard to her elimination activities, so success is going to be critical in changing her habits. Success + reward is very important to maintain for a while.

I would wholeheartedly agree and encourage you to do some kind of confinement in a more traveled area than the mudroom, assuming that is off to the side and out of view of the family. You still want her included in the bustle & activity of the family.

Your vet may have a good point about her earlier years, but I don't think she is a lost cause (and your vet didn't suggest she is). She is just going to need a little more diligence in reaching the marker of success before it all clicks and she becomes faithful. Havanese are very smart and Amy is no exception, I'm sure.


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## boo2352 (Dec 18, 2006)

We had a portable pack n play for MacGyver (like the ones for babies that you can set up anywhere). That way we could move him to different places in the house but he couldn't hurt the rugs. He was content as long as he could see someone.


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## DAJsMom (Oct 27, 2006)

Jen,
We've had similar struggles with Indie, and I totally agree. It is so frustrating! I have three kids and we are pretty busy with daily life. Having to deal with dog accidents can be overwhelming at times. We have had some success though, and maybe it will help you. 
The biggest help for us has been to go outside with Indie and make sure she goes pee and poop first thing in the morning. We stand out there and watch her until she goes (and she usually isn't quick about it!). I agree with Kimberly that you should carry Amy outside in the morning. Just give her no opportunity to go in the house! If Indie just won't go, I bring her back in and feed her, and then take her out again. That usually does the trick. Indie can and will hold it for a long time. She doesn't need to go back out again until about 3pm, and then again in the evening after dinner and before bed. Usually her accidents happen if we get lazy about watching her in the morning though. It bugs me to have to go stand outside with her and watch her go, but it's less frustrating than the accidents. We have used treats to speed up the process, and that helps too. 
If you can get an ex-pen and keep her confined but where she can see you during the day until this is worked out, maybe that would help. We use the ex-pen as a pen and also as a gate to block off various areas of the house. We can keep the dogs just in the family room and kitchen, or let them have the run of downstairs and just keep them from going upstairs. Indie's favorite thing was to sneak up to the kids' rooms and do her business there. 
The most important thing for us has been the mornings. We can let her have the run of the house for most of the day if we just make certain that she goes in the morning! Over time it has gotten easier, but we have not yet been able to trust her to do her business outside unless we actually see it happen! She does know how to ring a bell to go out and sometimes she does, just not every time. We've contemplated a doggie door, but we'd need the built-in kind and it's not in the budget at the moment!
I really hope something will work for you!
See if you can get a routine going that works for her.


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## isshinryu_mom (Mar 23, 2008)

Hi Jen!

A tip if you decided to set an expen up in your home.... go to Lowe's or Home Depot or somewhere like that and purchase a piece of vinyl flooring (they sell rolls of them which are plenty big for around $20.00). It will protect your floor or carpet giving you a bit more piece of mind. You can cut it with regular sissors to fit.


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## mom23girls (Nov 26, 2007)

Hi...thanks to everyone for your tips. I'm actually starting to wonder if this Clomicalm is having the opposite effect on her. She went in house three times yesterday. I'm doing everything the vet said to do & it's getting worse. I just don't understand. She's not doing it when I'm out of the house....it's always when I'm here. Example: I called her to follow me upstairs for bed last night & she always does a lap around the house before running up the stairs....well, on her way, she took time out to pee on the floor, just a quarter size spot, but still...I was right there, just around the corner. It's physically impossible for me to attach myself to her every single second. The vet said to give it a month, if it doesn't work, then we are going to start looking for a new home for her. I know in my heart that I've done everything I can do. This situation isn't doing any of us any good.


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

Jen, I'm just so sorry to find out you're still going through all of this with Amy. I know this has been tough on you. You really have been trying and trying and trying! I have my fingers crossed that THIS is the answer. Geez a quarter sized spot? It can't be that she really had to go could it?


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Jen, so sorry to read that you still have issues with Amy. :hug: You have a heart of gold for trying and trying to keep this sweet girl. Is it possible that she's marking or maybe just drips excitement drops?


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## mom23girls (Nov 26, 2007)

Christy & Maryam...You know, I have no idea why she does it. It's in the dining room 95% of the time. However, when I gated off the dining room, she did it in my sewing room (poop & pee). I hoped that by taking her out 6-7 times a day, she would never have the chance to have a drop left in her, but she manages to do any time there is the slightest urge. She's been digging in her feet & refusing to pee outdoors for the past three days.


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

If you are noticing the behaviour is not improving on the medication why not try something else .. 
I think you little one is feeling isolated and dejected and hey she is getting attention as soon as she does her business .. in the house Maybe not postive attention but at this point does she know the difference .. All she knows is that she spends a lot of time in the mud room .. and she wants out with you and the rest of the family ..
I agree with Kimberly - back to basics . Also I found it very helpful to have the dogs on leashes and tethered to me .. Is she crated trained . Will she stay and sleep in a crate .
Limiting their territory is key as is taking them out in the morning very first thing .. then repeat it in an a couple of hours and then another couple of hours . When you cannot take her out crate her .. in the mud rom or whereever she sleeps .. This is not a punishment and let her know this give her treat and put treats in the crate - it is an incentive and an enticement .. You need to use something she really really likes her special treat nothing mediocre here as we need to change the behaviour 
She needs to feel safe and secure and she does not want to mess where she sleeps hence the crate a very limited space ..
When you come back from your time away greet her and then take her out and say time to Go potty .. Pick a word that works and use it over and over . go potty !! Do your business .. Whatever words you want them to learn .. Change the tone of your voice .. Make it a happy experience .. Validate her with treats the tone of your voice and say Good girl and you really have to mean it .. Like she just gave you the most wonderful present in the world and she did !! She did her business outside .. Sometimes it is helpful to watch a a training video to get the right tone of good girl or boy down so it sounds like you really mean it .. Even a high five .. Cosmo knows this one and loves to be told High five !!

It takes time and there are set backs but they eventually do get it .. Every dog is different try to be clear and consistent ..


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Jen, I hate to say it, but I might check with another vet! My Lily did that when she had crystals in her urine. They were not real severe, but bad enough for her to not want to go outside cause it hurt, and to find a "soft" spot inside - in the thought that it might not hurt! She would pee a quarter size squirt, until the next time. I just think it is worth a try. To me, if she was not doing it at all for a while, and then doing it again, and then not, I would have to think that it is a medical thing. If it were bevavioral, wouldnt she do it ALL the time?? Just a thought


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## LuvCicero (Mar 31, 2008)

Could there at one time been other pets in the house? My daughter's tiny Yorkie came in my home every night and marked a nickle size here and there for two years. I had an old Pom and the yorkie couldn't stand her and it was like she was letting her know she was top dog. My Pom was to old to mess with the yorkie. The yorkie 'never' marked at her own home...completely house trained. Then along came Cicero after losing our Pom...and he wanted to play...and the yorkie was scared of him jumping and running at her -- and has never marked in my house again !!!! I'm just wondering if your baby can smell an odor from another dog that has been in the house...and marking to try to cover it up and make it her house. My oh my...you would think with so many people on this forum...some of us could figure this out. :biggrin1:


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

I too think it is either A. a bladder infection or crystals, or something actually "medical" or B. dominant bitch marking.

If it is dominant marking...and the leash pulling stuff plus some of the other things you've worked with Amy along the way kind of point in this direction, boy can I sympathize with you!  Posh has had some "issues" with marking and not only is it embarrassing but it is extremely frustrating as it is clear she is "house broken."

How are you reacting when you actually SEE her pee in your house? What do you do?

I have witness Posh squat and "mark" in a few highly embarrassing places...like, the agility tunnels at my training facility! Yikes. And, she's not too welcome at my inlaws house because they just put in new flooring and expensive rugs! Just ask Jane, Scout and Lincoln's mom, she had to wear a bellyband there...

How do I react? If I catch her in the act, I INSTANTLY yell "Uh uh!!!" or "No!" loudly, whatever comes out. This scares her and she literally stops midstream. I pick her up and growl "WE PEE OUTSIDE!" I carry her out to where she is supposed to pee, and tell her "to go potty" in a nice voice. When she does, and I stay outside to make sure she does go, I tell her what a good girl she is. I go back in and clean up the mess, but I'm done being angry and we go on with life. I have had to do this six times in the year that I have had Posh. I got her at six months old. My husband has done this to Posh three times. She NEVER pees at home anymore, and I am hoping she is starting to learn that she is not top dog.  I am. 

The other day, we were over at a friend's house who just got a dog. I noticed that Posh was prepping to "mark" near this dog's bed. I watch her start to squat and let out my growl "uh uh" don't even think about it and she knew EXACTLY not to pee.

The pooping thing? Well, it's happened here and I have always chalked it up to human error. Now that she is eating on a regular two times a day schedule, with minimal treats, she is very easy to read and I haven't found any "toosie roll surprises" around the house. She poops first thing in the morning, and after her evening meal. Sometimes after our morning walk too, just for good healthy measure.

Meanwhile, I agree this totally could be a medical issue that was missed. My trainer said if she kept peeing everywhere, my house included, to definitely check her for a bladder infection as it's an easy thing for especially a female dog to get...
So, I guess I would have her checked for a bladder infection/crystals or something similar no matter what you've already checked for...just in case.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Cosmosmom said:


> If you are noticing the behaviour is not improving on the medication why not try something else ..
> *I think you little one is feeling isolated and dejected and hey she is getting attention as soon as she does her business *.. in the house Maybe not postive attention but at this point does she know the difference .. All she knows is that she spends a lot of time in the mud room .. and she wants out with you and the rest of the family ..
> I agree with Kimberly - back to basics . Also I found it very helpful to have the dogs on leashes and tethered to me .. Is she crated trained . Will she stay and sleep in a crate .
> Limiting their territory is key as is taking them out in the morning very first thing .. then repeat it in an a couple of hours and then another couple of hours . When you cannot take her out crate her .. in the mud rom or whereever she sleeps .. This is not a punishment and let her know this give her treat and put treats in the crate - it is an incentive and an enticement .. You need to use something she really really likes her special treat nothing mediocre here as we need to change the behaviour
> ...


I agree with the highlighted part above 100%. I don't know the history of Amy, but it does sound like she is doing it because she is getting your attention. CONSISTENCY is the key to success and doing what Kimberly suggested will work, I promise, ONLY though if you are consistent, which isn't easy if you have young children.

I hear from puppy buyers all too often they want an older dog because they don't want to housetrain the dog. Well, all dogs need to be retrained when they go to a new home. Also, I continue everyday giving my dogs the same command when they get up in the morning and they all are taken outside, "go potty" and that is what they all do. It reminds them, outside is where they are to go to do their business.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

One of us take the dogs out first thing in the morning and stand there and say "go potty" over and over until they go. While they are going we say "good potty goer, good potty goer" and really praise them. When we were first training them we carried them out every time and said "let's go potty". I think it's the consistency of using the same words and routine every time. Lot's of praise and excitement!
You may have already tried all of this and if so, I don't know what else you can do except to really confine her in the house and carry her out often. Don't give her a chance to potty on your rugs.
Have you sprayed everything indoors with an enzyme that will kill the odor so she won't be able to smell where she went?


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Posh's Mom said:


> Just ask Jane, Scout and Lincoln's mom, she had to wear a bellyband there...


Amy, it really was no problem - the belly bands are total sanity savers! Posh is welcome here anytime, so please keep us in mind when you come back to San Jose next summer! :hug:

My boys are terrible about marking indoors - never in _our_ house, because that is their territory - but other people's houses (if there is a dog that lives there). I always put bellybands on my boys when we go to someone else's house now.

We recently had a small Hav playdate and several of the dogs were marking. It was clear at this point, since they are all adults, that they were deliberately doing it - it wasn't a potty training issue. In some ways, that is much harder to police and control.

Jen, I am wondering too if Amy is marking vs. having accidents now. I hope that things will improve soon. You have made a heroic effort in working with her!


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## iluvhavs (Jul 21, 2008)

I think there's a war of wills going on here, also. Why not keep Amy in the x-pen when you can't watch her and on a leash when she is out of the pen. 
We had to keep Rico on a leash in the house, so he would stay where we could see him. It worked! We would also move his food and toys to an area he liked to hide and pee in. That helped him realize, "hey, this spot is too good to soil!". I'd find myself sitting behind the dining room table, or in closets, playing with him and giving him treats. He picked up our point quickly.


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

I agree taking your dogs out to visit is entirely a different isssue .. I took the boys to a friends house and the were perfect .. That was the first time .. 
The second time things had changed in the home - the dynamics were different and the boys were just plain terrible .. They never mark at home - they were so busy marking and leaving presents too .. I had potty them in the morning and I thought they were empty - wrong .. !!
I was so embarassed >> Fortunately they are good friends and understood but still that was it for me .. Something set them off what it was I have no clue - but there was some kind of trigger .
As to health due to urinary infection or crystals I think that has to be checked and eliminated first . Tulip had a time at my house once and she had a bladder infection - this is after all medical conditions have been ruled out .. 
I do know from experience that there are triggers .. I know if I am not consistent or I get distracted and the routine slips and I am overwhelmed and may forget that is when they test me .. 
I know how hard it can be and there will be slip ups .. just try and muddle through and say whoops next time I better pay attention sooner .. 
Some people scold them I figure it was my mistake too and just move on .. Clean it up - try to get rid of the smell so they do not go back and do it again as they like to repeat it in the same place ..
I now have minimal carpeting and my special carpets much as I love them I had to put them away ..


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## Sherman (Sep 20, 2006)

Oh Jen, I can't believe you're still going through this with Amy! When we first moved here in May Sherman used the basement, which was new to him, as a bathroom. But I think he's finally stopped. The only advice I have is just to never let her on the carpet like the other posters say. Did she adapt to being on the boat in the summer? I remember how adorable and soft she is. What a terrible problem. I hope the new drug works. Life is so hard. One of my cats was diagnosed with hyperthyroid disease last month and has to take a pill twice a day! Otherwise, we're doing pretty well down here. At least the weather is better and I see my sister and my friends more often.
Good luck and let me know how you're getting along.
We miss you!
Carol


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## Doggie Nut (Oct 20, 2006)

Is a belly band and what I lovingly refer to as a "doggie diaper" the same thing? Anyone have any pics or a link I could look at?? TIA!


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Do you have cats or other dogs in the house? I do notice that after I have other dogs over, Gucci will have to mark her scent over theirs. I now understand why some people I know have a no-other pets rule in their house because of marking issues.

And I think some dogs are harder to housebreak with cats in the house. I have a friend down the street and no matter what she does, she cannot get her two dogs to quit using the living room as a potty place, they finally gave up and put plastic down! 

I know its got to be frustrating, have you tried a diaper? I really hope the Clomicalm works!

Kara


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Jen, I'm so very sorry you are still dealing with this with Amy. You've done so much to help her get over her past history. 
This just doesn't sound like accidents, especially if she's only peeing a bit. It sounds like marking or something medical. I wish I had a magic solution but I don't. Hugs to you for trying everything and giving her a little more time. 
I found out after taking McKenna to Jane's house that she WILL attempt to mark in someone else's house. I caught her getting in position and promptly starteled her to get her attention and took her outside before she had a chance to actually mark but now I'm a little afraid to take her to anyone's house...
I sincerely hope it works for you and for Amy. She's such a cutie!


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

Doggie Nut said:


> Is a belly band and what I lovingly refer to as a "doggie diaper" the same thing? Anyone have any pics or a link I could look at?? TIA!


Vicki - Yep, belly bands are basically diapers for males. Here's a website that showing them (that's Cody modeling on the home page) http://www.pekeatzurescue.com/bellybands911.htm

Jill


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

You've gotten some great advice. Considering the early history, what about using a person who deals with only behavior issues or call a good pet psychic who can ask why it's happening.
You may need to train yourself to train your dog also. Do you practice NILF?
Does the dog get a lot more attention when it goes potty in the house than it does at other times? 
I know, those are hard questions but you are so frustrated that you need to look at everything for your own sanity and the dog's happiness.


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## Doggie Nut (Oct 20, 2006)

Jill in Mich said:


> Vicki - Yep, belly bands are basically diapers for males. Here's a website that showing them (that's Cody modeling on the home page) http://www.pekeatzurescue.com/bellybands911.htm
> 
> Jill


Jill, thank you so much! This is exactly what I need! Valentino is not dependable, especially when he is with his "peeing" partner....our female maltese Lexi! I have to rig her up too! Such an inconvenience but better than the alternative! Didn't know your boy was a fashion model! Too cute! Which size did you get? I haven't measured Valentino yet but I'm guessing he will need a medium. I will be ordering one of these fashion "musts"!:biggrin1:


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## mom23girls (Nov 26, 2007)

Hi! I've been sooo busy these past few months & haven't been on the computer much. Thank you for all your suggestions. So...here's what's going on. I was able to contact the woman we got Amy from & she made a very good suggestion. She said that b/c Amy was always let out to to do her business on her own, she was probably having a hard time going "on demand" on the leash. That day, my husband put up some fencing & gave her a huge area to go out leading off our deck. Now, I can just open the door to let her go. She's had about 3 accidents in the past month (I can totally live with that!) I would prefer it if she didn't have any, but she's 5 years old & it seems that she's established this pattern of going anywhere, anytime. By having a fenced area, I am able to let her out more often & she has a lot more freedom. She seems happier. For now.....all is well, so I'm crossing my fingers and toes that it stays that way. I love her & just want to see her succeed at this.

Carol....I was so happy to hear from you!!!!! Sounds ike you're doing well in your new home. We sure do miss you & Sherman. Give him a belly rub from me & I doggy kiss from his girlfriend Amy in NY!


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## mom23girls (Nov 26, 2007)

ps....no more Clomicalm!!!!! She started this thing the vet called "submissive urination". Took her off it & it's stopped.


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Boy am I happy to read your latest posts Jen!!! How about a doggie door/


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

:cheer2::clap2::cheer2:


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## mom23girls (Nov 26, 2007)

Hi...I added this post to my last thread for those of you who don't remember me. This saga continues with Amy....

Things were getting better. By "better" I mean, only messing in the house 3-4 times a week. I could deal w/that b/c her personality was so sweet & she was really making progress and starting to act like a dog.

Then....five weeks ago we had an underground fence installed. The way they train them is to walk the dog to the blue flag, they hear a "beep" (they are not wearing the collar at this time) and the trainer says no & gently pulls the dog away from the flag. Basically, wanting the dog to associate the beep with the "no" command and back up. We made it to flag #2 when Amy sat down, shaking, refused to move. We had the owner of the fence company come out to evaluate the situation about a week later. He told me to carry Amy outside every time she has to go, (that's 8-9times a day), calmly walk with her (no collar on), set her down & then praise the daylights out of her when she goes. I did this for two weeks.

Here where I'm at......She will not go outside, will not leave the upstairs closet except to eat. If she hears you say the words "Go Out", she runs away, usually with a trail of urine behind. If I try to pick her up, she pees, when I put the leash on her, she pees. She won't interact with the kids, will not greet us when we come home. Sits in one place & barks if the doorbell rings. 

Those of you who know me, know how HARD I've worked with this dog over the past year and half. This problem is completely beyond me.... The vet has referred us to a dog therapist at Cornell. You can imagine my husbands reaction to that. After paying trainers, vets, new capeting, etc, etc....we've spent thousands, he's done! 

I would LOVE to hear anyone's input, actually, I'm begging for it. Thanks so much....-jen


ps...fyi, she never actually got a shock, we turned it off so she only heard the beep. She was never behind an underground fence before, I asked the breeder, so no previous negative experiences.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Could it be it hurt her ears so badly she is now afraid??? That is what is sounds like to me. Poor Amy, she is scared and confused.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Oh geeez Jen, I am so sorry for both you and Amy. This has been a long traumatic haul for you both (and your DH) 

Question? did Amy go out in the back yard to potty before the fence? or is the whole concept of going in the back yard new to her? 

That is the only thing I can think of... Jasper had a terrible period for about 6 months where he would not go in the back yard. and he withdrew from us, and barely got excited about walks (which is the only thing that always makes him happy) and it was so painful to watch and not understand. We were able to pinpoint it starting around the time our pet sitter hired some one to help her and our dogs got the new guy (without asking us.) Not sure if he did anything wrong or not...Jas is a sensitive dog...but we got a new a pet sitter who also had some training experience and things started to turn around. We also changed his food and added a joint supplement which also gave him more energy. 

What were you doing when things were getting better? were you taking her for walks around the neighborhood more? Jasper's mood is always better when he gets a walk or two a day. 

good luck and keep us posted.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Jen, I've been wondering about Amy. I'm sorry to hear that you are still struggling with her house training. I give you worlds of credit for everything you have done for her. 
You say her pee spots are about the size of a quarter. That sounds more like marking, doesn't it? Does she get a lot of attention from YOU? I know you have kids that love her but maybe she's marking in the house because it gets a reaction from you, even if it is a negative reaction. I don't know. It's a frustrating thing to have to deal with. 
I just hate that her puppyhood and early adulthood was spent confined in a crate and has contributed to this behavior. She's a beautiful girl and deserves all the love you have to give and want to give, except for this one problem. I wish I had a magic solution. Perhaps its the doggie diapers for awhile. It doesn't solve the problem but at least you'd have some peace of mind when she's in the house and you'd be able to love on her instead of resenting her.


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## cjsud (Oct 26, 2008)

I know this sounds over simple but have you tried a doggy door? When I realized I couldn't watch Hobbes 24/7 it was way easier to put in a doggy door. I started with his crate expened near the door so the only place he could go was outside. Worked like a charm. He got used to the door right away and at night could go when he wanted.


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## cjsud (Oct 26, 2008)

Oh sorry I missed the last post about the new fence. I agree the sound may be hurting her ears.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Jen, after reading your latest post ignore mine. It sounds like Amy has regressed back to where she was when you first got her. What a sad situation for you and for Amy. I wish you well and I hope some of our newest members might have some suggestions you haven't tried.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Jen, welcome back to the Forum and for posting an update about Amy. 
Would it be possible to buy several expens and just physically fence off a small potty area for her instead of the underground fence? It really does sound like she is fearful of it. That must be very frustrating for you - after going to the trouble and expense of having it installed 

Poor girl - I am sad when I think about what she must have experienced in her former life. You have put forth heroic efforts in loving and training her, Amy. :hug:


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## mom23girls (Nov 26, 2007)

Well, we had the fence removed. I've been walking her alot, but there's been little change. Yesterday, I cleaned up 3 pees and and 2 poops and I took her out four times. I think it's obvious that none of us are happy in this situation. I have no idea why she is so unhappy here. I now have 2 heartbroken kids, they know this isn't going to last & I feel awful. We will not spend another $7-800 on a "behaviorist" who offers no guarantee whatsoever that she won't slip back into this pattern. I'm done. I'm trying to find someone who will give her the type of home environment she needs....other dogs, no kids, small space. I'm not sure where to start....I also hate that this responsibility falls on me b/c I think it hurts me more than my husband & kids. She deserves to be happy & sadly, I guess it has to be this way. Thanks for all your support over the past 2 years. -Jen


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## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

Oh Jen, I am so sorry it has come to this. If you need help, please contact HRI (Havanese Rescue). The website is www.havaneserescue.com. There is a link there to request help. Good luck. It sounds like she needs a retired person that is home alot and can spend a lot of time working with her.


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

I am so sorry Jen that you are still having potty problems. You have tried your best with Amy. Dogs required so much of our valuable time and patience.

Dogs can sense your moods, tones, touch, facial expressions, the way you are standing and positioning yourself, and probably lots more. I would suggest approaching Amy with soft soothing cheerful greetings and see how she reacts.

I had forgotten how much time is required with a puppy when we first got Dexter. It was one on one with Dexter when Dexter was awake for months. Lots of patience and staying calm all the time was required. Constant positive training with cheerful voices all the time. It's work! It is like having an infant then toddler in the house!

I do not have human children to look after, it is just Dexter and he gets all my attention. I really do feel your stress and frustration you are going through, you have to do what is best for you and your family. If you need help, please contact the Havanese http://www.havaneserescue.com/


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

Jen,
You have tried so hard with Amy and I am sorry that things haven't turned out well for you all. I'm sure you are totally frustrated and sad.

It will be hard for you to place Amy, but it sounds like you must do this for the sake of your sanity and happiness. Amy may find a place where she is more comfortable, although we all know that you have made extraordinary attempts to make her comfortable in your home.

Just know that you have the support of the people on this forum.

I really admire all you have done, but I hope that you can get closure soon, and place her as quickly as possible.


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

I read your entire post because of the heading about the Clomicalm. Did you ever use it? Maybe you can find some help in the results Anne had with Lola;

http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=9084

http://havaneseforum.com/showthread....253#post269253

Your story is so heart breaking to read. We adopted Galen from Havanese Rescue. She lived the first four months of her life in a puppy mill, then 2 short term foster homes before coming to us. Getting her house broke has just about got the best of me as my threads and post have stated. I feel your frustration but Galen is a happy, sweet, loving puppy. Without these qualities I know I could not have gone through what you and your family have for 2 years. Havanese Rescue is a wonderful organization.

Amy is not happy and I know that is what you want for her. The under ground fence can really traumatize some dogs, we have one. That could have been part of the trigger that started her regression.

Getting to my main point. &#8230;&#8230;.Do you have a vet school near you? The reason I ask is a few weeks ago while talking to the new vet about some of Smarty's weird behavior she mentioned the Behavior Services at UGA's Vet School. She was amazed at some of the work they were doing and was actually going back for additional classes. Long story short the cost for a profile study was about $200 with a very experienced Professor/Doctor, not a student, a few hours, you and your dog. The other thing she said that was so interesting was some of the vet students live with donated dogs to study and solve some of their behavior problems.

Jen, My heart truly goes out to you and your family at having to come to a decision that can give you and Amy some peace. Please keep us posted.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

About every trick there is has been talked about so I'm just sending you both hugs :hug:


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

Hugs from me too. It's been such a long hard road for you with Amy. I'm so sorry to hear nothing has worked. I know you've done and tried all you could think of to improve the situation. I hope you find a good home for her and you are able to find peace in your heart. You really did your very best.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

:hug: from us too, Jen. I wish you and your family much peace as you move forward in helping Amy find a more suitable situation for her. I really admire your efforts and perseverence and all that you have done for her.


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## Chere (May 22, 2009)

I'm so sorry that you must give up Amy but it sounds as if that would be the best for her and for you. Do contact Havenese Rescue; they may be able to find a home for AMy. We survived (and are surviving) with our rescue dogs because most of our house is hardwood and tile and we can close off carpeted areas. Our dogs do pretty well but they do regress as one is doing right now with peeing in the house. Then we have to back up and start again. I am thinking that rescue dogs may just tend to regress more than other dogs who have been trained and socialized from puppyhood. It seems, with our dogs, that any kind of stress can set them back in their behaviors.

Try not to feel that you or Amy have "failed"; you did your best and I am sure she is doing her best. Just try to locate the best possible placement for her. Sending you a big hug as I know you must be hurting with this.


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Jen, just checking in to see if any decisions have been made. I think of you, your family and Amy every day.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Jen, you've done everything you possibly could to make it work. You didn't fail and Amy isn't a bad dog. It just wasn't right for either of you for some reason that may never be known. I know how hard it will be to rehome Amy. Hopefully Hav Rescue will help you place her. Have you contacted them?

Let us know what happens. We care.

Sending lots of hugs to you, your family and Amy.


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

Have you ever had her tested for a UTI, bladder crystals or stones?
Her symptoms sound just like my Jesters before I discovered he had a UTI which led to urine crystals which led to stones. He was peeing in the house several times a day, he would pee when we picked him up, pee when he was nervous or excited. Once he got the UTI cleared up and the stones removed, he stopped all the peeing.
Please have her urine tested (if you haven't already)- it may just be an infection!


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## mom23girls (Nov 26, 2007)

Hi... I want to thank every one of you who has supported Amy & I during these past 2 years. I'm so overwhelmed with sadness right now, so I'm not going to type a lot. There is a woman who is part of Hav rescue in Long Island who is probably going to keep her. She has other dogs & has lots of experience. I do believe that Amy will be happier there, I'm just sad for my family right now, b/c I never wanted to have to do this. Than you all, from the bottom of my heart, for your support. -Jen


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Oh, Jan. I'm so sorry. I know your heart must be broken. Sending you a hug.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Jen- what a tough decision and we have seen from afar all the effort you and your family has put in. Sending you big hugs this morning. In my limited experience, I think some dogs really just have to be with other dogs to do their best.

Amanda


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Jen, bless your heart. You have tried SO very hard to make it work. Maybe it just simply wasn't the right match for both sides. Sending big hugs your way.


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

Jen,
I'm so sorry you and your family had to go through this.
You gave it your best.
Hugs,


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Jen, I'm so sorry for you and your family. You tried so very hard. We share your sadness.
I hope that some day you can find just the right pup to fit into your family. I know Amy will do well in rescue so you can rest assured that you did the right thing for all of you.

Hugs!!


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## Chere (May 22, 2009)

I am so sad for you but you have made the best choice for Amy and your family. It might be that a very experienced rescuer who has other dogs can help with Amy. I just really feel for you and your heartbreak.


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