# Your Criteria for keeping puppies



## AgilityHav

When you have a litter of puppies, what is your "criterea" for keeping a possible breeding/show puppy.

Do you a) have a set of "standards" as in there are a maximum number of Hav standard "variations" the puppy can have(a max number of faults), b) do you look for certian traits you like/need in your program or c) "go with your gut" that is, keep who you "feel" would work best for your program. All of these include deciding not to keep a puppy at all/keeping multiple puppies/just one.

Natasha


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## Kathy

Good questions. I evaluate to the standard first and foremost. However, by the time a puppy is 8 weeks old, "my eye" is already giving me a pretty good idea of who might be considered a show potential puppy as I have been holding them, playing with them, watching them and so on since birth. I am not one that thinks that most puppies in a litter are show potential puppies. I want more of the whole package to continue moving forward in my breeding program. I don't want to loose any of the good I already have.


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## Havtahava

I take a good, hard look at 8 weeks of age and try to get some other breeders that I respect to look at them at that age also (without telling them what I see).

My first evaluation is at 7 weeks age - and that is where I evaluate for temperament. A poor temperament immediately disqualifies any dog from staying.

Next, I start off with Pat Hastings' method of evaluation for overall balance. She is really good in teaching generic canine structure. Then I go to the Havanese Standard for specifics. There are many faults, but I weigh some heavier than others. I will not keep a dog with a bad front, because a bad front is dominant (genetically) and you can fight that for generations without getting your correct front back. And, I will not keep a dog with a bad bite. _Dentition (number of teeth) is different from the bite. _ Weak pigment is something I look down on also. Head shape is very important to me. I highly value a good head. If the head doesn't look like a Havanese, then the dog is automatically off my list for keeping also.

Strangely enough, I was just talking with Hedy about this today. Since my goal is to always be improving the breed, I do not want to keep a puppy that is not better than his/her parents. Likewise, if I have a dog that can't produce better than him/herself, then I don't want to keep that adult in my breeding program either.

It is very important to learn to recognize the strength of each dog. Anyone can recognize faults. (Give someone a standard and a little information and they can sit ringside and pick out the faults in an hour.) But, it is much harder to identify the strengths of your dog. If you can learn to identify strengths and be willing to create a heirarchy of faults that you won't tolerate, you'll get a great start.

Unless you are going to collect dogs, you have to be hard core at evaluating critically so that you are able to scrutinize your own puppies without emotion. It is hard to step back and be objective, so that is why it is important to have others who will tell you the good and the bad without hurting your feelings too.

It is so important to grow in knowledge. Seek out experts in dogs and in your breed and learn from them. I sign up for every seminar that I can and read a lot of books that are touted to be "experts" in the canine world. Sometimes I learn more about canines in general and it is amazing how much a general dog structure (or genetics, nutrition, breeding, etc.) seminar will teach you. I have a long way to go, but I intend to keep learning every day I can.


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## Posh's Mom

Fascinating. As someone who never plans to go into breeding dogs but respects those of you awesome breeders who post here this is really interesting to read.


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## ama0722

Okay, why I am not/shouldn't be a breeder, my first thought- it is a puppy of course you keep it!!! <BG>

I think Kathy and Kimberly have given you some great advice though and I really second temperament as I have seen a lot of Havanese recently with questionable temperament so don't forget that part of the testing. Do you have some people who can access your puppy without being biased and be honest with you? I think that would be the hardest part especially when you are the breeder.

P.S. you can always send the puppies to me and if they are perfect, I will send them back


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## Leslie

Havtahava said:


> Strangely enough, I was just talking with Hedy about this today. Since my goal is to always be improving the breed, *I do not want to keep a puppy that is not better than his/her parents. Likewise, if I have a dog that can't produce better than him/herself, then I don't want to keep that adult in my breeding program either.*


Kimberly~ I worked very closely for many years with a teacher who is one of the top breeders of Exotic Shorthair cats and this is exactly how she determines which kittens will stay and which will go. Excellent advice! :biggrin1:


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## mckennasedona

I could never be a breeder but it is interesting to watch and learn from breeders. 

I'll be happy to take any puppy rejects off your hands.......I'll put a crate with comfy blankies by my front door so you guys can drop off the babies, no questions asked. It'll be the "Safe Haven" law for puppies.


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## hedygs

I learn so much from the breeders on this site. 

Kimberly I want to thank you for always taking the time to answer my questions about this delightful breed. I appreciate it.


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## casperkeep

I agree with Amanda...they are puppies I would keep all of them. Now that is why I am not breeding. I would be the crazy dog lady....wait they already say that I am. I think you got some really good advice. I think it is soo awesome to be able to learn all I can even though I am not breeding. I would love to but I just don't know if I could.


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## casperkeep

I will leave a crate by my door as well....we need to station ourselves around the different states!!!


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## JASHavanese

AgilityHav said:


> When you have a litter of puppies, what is your "criterea" for keeping a possible breeding/show puppy.
> 
> Do you a) have a set of "standards" as in there are a maximum number of Hav standard "variations" the puppy can have(a max number of faults), b) do you look for certian traits you like/need in your program or c) "go with your gut" that is, keep who you "feel" would work best for your program. All of these include deciding not to keep a puppy at all/keeping multiple puppies/just one.
> 
> Natasha


The posts here pretty much cover what we look for but I look for one more thing. I want a dog I can keep in the ring as a special and to do that I'd also have to look at the coloring of the dog. An all black dog would be pretty hard to special without a very good handler. A dog with coloring that creates an optical illusion would also be tough. I don't want more than one male in my house and so far I've gotten black females. :frusty:


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## Elaine

Kathy and Kimberly are always so right on and it is a lot of watching the puppies from the day they are born. People looking for puppies have a hard time with the fact that they can't just pick the one they want at a young age but if you are breeding to improve yours or someone elses breeding program it take time to evaluate what you hope will be a show/breeding potential puppy. Even after doing all you can to make sure you have chosen the right one and becoming attached to it you have to be willing to let them go if they don't turn out. I always start looking at my puppies when I give them a bath, it is easier to see angles when they are wet, to check for straight fronts how their shoulders look plus the over all puppy. When wet they are not comfortable and they are cold so you have to make allowences for that though. From the time they are about 4 weeks they are developing their temperment, attitude and you can also see if they self stack themselves. You watch over all body style and proportions for what you want in your breeding program as you look for what the standard call for. I have kept puppies to decide if they are what I am looking for in the breed standard and if when they get much older they are not then others benefit from a nicely trained puppy. You have to know what good and bad points you can work with and we all strive for that perfect puppy and I do have to say that some of our breeders are doing a fantastic job of it.


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## pjewel

casperkeep said:


> I will leave a crate by my door as well....we need to station ourselves around the different states!!!


I'll cover the northeast, including New Jersey and Pennsylvania. You can decide who picks it up from there.


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## Sheri

Okay, I'm in the Northwest--my front step is well protected from the elements, and I can keep a basket there for any imperfect puppies up here. I'd even come some distance to pick them up for you, to save you a trip! :

Sheri


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## SaydeeMomma

Oh no. Don't keep any of them. I'll be by to pick them all up, say around 6 pm?


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## Lilly's mom

pjewel said:


> I'll cover the northeast, including New Jersey and Pennsylvania. You can decide who picks it up from there.


*I'll take the southeast.*:bounce:


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## Lilly's mom

JASHavanese said:


> The posts here pretty much cover what we look for but I look for one more thing. I want a dog I can keep in the ring as a special and to do that I'd also have to look at the coloring of the dog. An all black dog would be pretty hard to special without a very good handler. A dog with coloring that creates an optical illusion would also be tough. I don't want more than one male in my house and so far I've gotten black females. :frusty:


 Jan would you explain to those of us who aren't breeders what the problem is with a black coat or one that creats an optical illusion (how does it do this what does the coat look like).


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## Lilly's mom

JASHavanese said:


> The posts here pretty much cover what we look for but I look for one more thing. I want a dog I can keep in the ring as a special and to do that I'd also have to look at the coloring of the dog. An all black dog would be pretty hard to special without a very good handler. A dog with coloring that creates an optical illusion would also be tough. I don't want more than one male in my house and so far I've gotten black females. :frusty:


 Since you do not want more than one male bt you do want a different colored female puppy do you use another stud?


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## Havtahava

Oh yes, I agree with that Jan. The showing ability definitely factors in for me too. I've let a couple of puppies go that were nice, but didn't have nice show markings when another equal littermate had nicer markings. 

Piaget is a good example. He had three nice brothers, and one was only eliminated early (due to an eye color), but the other two boys were just as gorgeous in structure, temperament and confidence.


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## Julie

fascinating------:ear:


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## Lilly's mom

bumping up for Jan to see.


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## marjrc

I'm posting simply so I can be notified when others post to this thread. I too think it's so fascinating even though I am not considering breeding. I've already bred 3 teens, so don't need any more hassles!!! ;p


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## LuvCicero

Marj, I think I'm walking in your shoes. 
I would have a hard time knowing which puppy to keep at around 10 weeks -- they all seem perfect to me.


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## ivyagogo

If I was a breeder, I'd have 57 dogs in my house!


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## pjewel

I'm curious about what makes for nicer markings. I know when I got Bailey I thought his markings were just beautiful but of course that's to an untrained eye -- or perhaps seen through the eyes of love.


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## juliav

Kathy, Elaine and Kimberly,

Since I live in S.F., I will be happy to stop by and pick up everyone's unwanted puppies. Just say when.


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## Leslie

JASHavanese said:


> The posts here pretty much cover what we look for but I look for one more thing. I want a dog I can keep in the ring as a special and to do that I'd also have to look at the coloring of the dog. *An all black dog would be pretty hard to special without a very good handler.* A dog with coloring that creates an optical illusion would also be tough. I don't want more than one male in my house *and so far I've gotten black females.* :frusty:


Which is one of the reasons why Tori came to live my house! :biggrin1: Lucky me!!! :whoo:


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## DanielBMe

My criteria is, If I don't get caught stealing one, I'm keeping it! 
:biggrin1:


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## JASHavanese

Lilly's mom said:


> Jan would you explain to those of us who aren't breeders what the problem is with a black coat or one that creats an optical illusion (how does it do this what does the coat look like).


It would be easier with pictures but I'll try to give a couple of examples. One would be if the color on the front legs had a curve to it. Let's say the dog is black and both front legs are white but the color curves outward. It could make the dog look like it has CD. With Bandit her black hair from her head meets the back and gives the illusion of not enough neck so when she was at the National Kimberly suggested pulling the ears forward which showed the beautiful neck she has......and Bandit made the cut by doing that. :whoo: If not for her suggestion she may not have. You want to see nice rear view of the hav as it walks away from you but fur colors can make it look off. 
This is mostly at the special level but an optical illusion can make it harder to get your CH...but you'll usually get there and a knowledgeable judge will see through the colors. An all black dog can get overlooked in the ring and sort of blend in with the background.


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## JASHavanese

Leslie said:


> Which is one of the reasons why Tori came to live my house! :biggrin1: Lucky me!!! :whoo:


Lucky Tori and me too :hug:


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## JASHavanese

Lilly's mom said:


> Since you do not want more than one male bt you do want a different colored female puppy do you use another stud?


I used my male intentionally once....and unintentionally he had his own plans once. Other than that I've used other studs.


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## lcy_pt

marjrc said:


> I'm posting simply so I can be notified when others post to this thread. I too think it's so fascinating even though I am not considering breeding.* I've already bred 3 teens, so don't need any more hassles!!!* ;p


:drum: ba-dum-dum ching :biggrin1:


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## JAEwton

Better watch out Susan or I will send down my 3 I can't sell. The way thing's are right now I don't think I can even give them away. What does a person do with puppies they can't keep and no one else want's to purchase even at a very low discount?
Judy E.


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## Beamer

JAEwton said:


> Better watch out Susan or I will send down my 3 I can't sell. The way thing's are right now I don't think I can even give them away. What does a person do with puppies they can't keep and no one else want's to purchase even at a very low discount?
> Judy E.


So, how low are we willing to go here?? lol

Ryan


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## SaydeeMomma

Beamer said:


> So, how low are we willing to go here?? lol
> 
> Ryan


...and what time should we be there in the morning to pick them up?? ound:


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## lcy_pt

Beamer said:


> So, how low are we willing to go here?? lol
> 
> Ryan


:nono: baaad......

ound:


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## lcy_pt

SaydeeMomma said:


> ...and what time should we be there in the morning to pick them up?? ound:


 :nono: reaally baaaad

ound:


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## JASHavanese

JAEwton said:


> Better watch out Susan or I will send down my 3 I can't sell. The way thing's are right now I don't think I can even give them away. What does a person do with puppies they can't keep and no one else want's to purchase even at a very low discount?
> Judy E.


What options are you thinking of?
If we bring them into this world, we care for them. jmo


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## MopTop Havanese

Yes I agree. As a breeder you have to be willing to keep those puppies until homes are found for them. Sometimes that means 10 weeks and sometimes 10 months (or more!).
This is something that you should have thought about before having puppies. Being a breeder is not an easy job. Puppies buyers these days are smart. They do their homework. They know what they are looking for in a responsible breeder. And I think these days they have alot to choose from. So there are going to be situations where a breeder has to hold onto a puppy for longer~ And I agree with Jan, we bring them into this world, we are responsible for them.


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## Leeann

MopTop Havanese said:


> Yes I agree. As a breeder you have to be willing to keep those puppies until homes are found for them. Sometimes that means 10 weeks and sometimes 10 months (or more!).
> This is something that you should have thought about before having puppies. Being a breeder is not an easy job. Puppies buyers these days are smart. They do their homework. They know what they are looking for in a responsible breeder. And I think these days they have alot to choose from. So there are going to be situations where a breeder has to hold onto a puppy for longer~ And I agree with Jan, we bring them into this world, we are responsible for them.


I have to agree, for me as a pet owner the #1 thing I look for in a breeder is do they do the proper health testing.


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## JASHavanese

Leeann said:


> I have to agree, for me as a pet owner the #1 thing I look for in a breeder is do they do the proper health testing.


Add more to your list than that Leeann. Are the puppies stuck in a kennel or play in a home. Do they get the love they need as puppies, do they get the socialization they need. Do the sire and dam live in xpens or are they a part of the family. Does the breeder offer you support....and the list goes on.


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## Leeann

Jan you are soooo right, how else would I have met our good friend Ann if I didn’t have a breeder who cared and noticed a post that was made on the health forum by Ann trying to gather people together for CERF testing in my area and forwarded the info to me. My breeder is in IN and has never met Ann but still took the time to connect me with her for the benefit of my boys. The list goes go on and on.


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## ama0722

I have to agree I feel like in our breed, people are going to be more picky especially with the money they are paying and they should be! I was just recently at a dog show and I had a family come up to visit. They asked if they could meet Dashie and they came right out and asked me if he was cerf'ed! I was so happy they even knew what that meant and we talked about health testing and the breed. I explained the age at what some of the health testing is done at but they were just pet people and they knew what questions to ask from the get go!


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## Posh's Mom

I love this thread!!!! Jan and Katie you are so spot on and Amanda is it is heartening to hear your story about the research the family is doing. Awesome! 

It's amazing how much more I know even now from this forum...even though I did a lot of homework before getting my havanese. Unfortunately, I learned from my dane that your do often get what you pay for (and I'm not just talking dollars, I'm talking time/research/questions) in health and personality traits...and I just sickens me that there are people who are not in it for the "right" reasons.

Jan I loved your post about "how to kill a shelter dog." I can't remember if that was in this thread or not.


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## marjrc

Like you, Amanda, I get so very happy when people come to the store I work at and talk about things like health testing, nutrition and care. I get excited and actually tell them I'm so happy they "get it"! :biggrin1:


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