# Socialization - ????



## lkwilson (Mar 6, 2011)

Coach is four months old, everything I've read and have been told is that he needs to be around other dogs, especially off leash. We walk him and take him to our neighborhood dog friendly restaurant but we don't know anyone with a small dog that can come play yet.

So I wanted to send him to doggy day care one day a week, my trainer suggested it too. So I call to make an appointment and they don't like that he hasn't had his third sets of shots, not due until June. They even called my vet and the vet agreed. 

I would die if anything happened to my sweet boy but I'm torn between socialization and health risks. Do you think they are just afraid of liability or is their concern valid? 

The groomer I sent him too had a small room where the little guys hang out waiting their turns. Nobody seemed concerned about that.

Thoughts?


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## Lizzie'sMom (Oct 13, 2010)

I ran into this with Lizzie. My trainer told me to take her everywhere. When I went to the vet I literally got yelled at when they found out we went to the pet store. Yet she (the vet) told me to take her to the groomer to get her used to it. Any class that I wanted to take I could not because of the vaccine issue. She had 2 sets from the breeder, but the vet still did a full series. I know Lizzie's early socialization could have been better, but we did what we could meeting neighborhood kids and dogs.

Dave posted a good article about socialization and the vaccine issue a week or so ago.


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## lkwilson (Mar 6, 2011)

Thanks Lynne.... I follow threads pretty closely but didn't see that one. I'll check it out.

Quite the mixed message isn't it...


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## JMGracie (Mar 30, 2011)

I had a great experience with Puppy Kindergarten... essentially the same as basic obedience, but limited to puppies under 6 months. They should look for some record of immunization before you sign up, so you can have some assurance.

The local doggy day care around here runs one, but mine was actually through the vet (they bring in a professional trainer to run these classes).

Basically, there were maybe 15 puppies and owners, and every week we learned basic commands, as well as basic info for the owners (crate training, what types of food to buy, what types of leashes work for different dogs, just that kind of stuff). But also there was a socialization aspect to it. There was a little off-leash playtime at the end, but throughout the class we had chances for the dogs to interact (even learning how to avoid distractions).

It's definitely not the only option, but for me it was a fantastic way to start.


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## lkwilson (Mar 6, 2011)

Thanks JM, I looked into that too and have yet to find one. But there are beginner training classes that are probably puppies. That's probably the direction I'll go or keep going to the groomer for shampoos and let him stay most of the day


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

While I am. Strong believer in early socialization for puppies, I WOULDN'T do it in a "doggie day care" situation. In a puppy kindergarten class, a good instructor will make sure that all the puppies have a good experience, that no puppy is being continually dominated by another (or bullying the others!). This won't happen in a daycare situation. Obviously, they try to prevent overt aggression among the dogs, but they very often miss a lot of the quiet, " body language" type of intimidation that can go on between dogs or the subtle signs that one is feeling intimidated by the others. 

Havs are very sensitive, "soft" temperament dogs and can be easily intimidated by dogs, even small ones, who play more roughly. For instance, a Jack Russell Terrier or a Min Pin may weigh less than a Hav, but be much more rambunctious, and just too rough for our guys without careful supervision.

I've seen a lot of dogs DEVELOP behavior problems toward other dogs as a result of time spent in doggy day care situations. So be very careful if you choose this route.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

we need to educate these places and vets. Show them this article . They are doing a disservice to dogs by waiting too long to encourage socialization. Find a place that does allow first shots only. http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/puppy socialization.pdf


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## lkwilson (Mar 6, 2011)

Karen, thanks for the feedback. Coach does get a bit overwhelmed when we meet a really aggressive dog. There is one puppy class that starts in a few weeks but it doesn't sound like much happens off leash. I'll keep looking. 

Dave, thanks for the article link, I dug through old posts of yours to find it when Lynne referred to it. I'll take it to my vet.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

lkwilson said:


> Karen, thanks for the feedback. Coach does get a bit overwhelmed when we meet a really aggressive dog. There is one puppy class that starts in a few weeks but it doesn't sound like much happens off leash. I'll keep looking.
> 
> Dave, thanks for the article link, I dug through old posts of yours to find it when Lynne referred to it. I'll take it to my vet.


 Don't worry about the off leash. I'm sure their will be play time off leash. My class had a few additional days a week you could come for $10 hr and have puppy play time off leash. My problem I had was their were only 3 other dogs in my class and they were all large breed. Zoey never wanted to play Although she was friendley to the other people and did stop barking at the large pups


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Little dogs need to learn to play with big dogs too, and big puppies need to learn to play with little puppies appropriately. Just "not barking" at bigger dogs isn't enough, and being social with people, while an important thing too, doesn't have anything to do with DOG socialization. It's really important to expose your puppy to ALL kinds of dogs in a controlled setting where NO puppy, regardless of size, is either regularly intimidated by others OR regularly dominates the others. 

This is where a good trainer is worth their weight in gold. They will know when to have you step in and pick up your puppy, and when to stand back and let the pups figure it out on their own.

The 6-8 weeks of the average puppy kindergarten is just scratching the surface on developing good social skills. If having a dog who will happily and confidently interact with other (well socialized!) dogs is important to you, as it is to me, you have to work on this A LOT... and continue the exposure even once your pup is grown up. Socialization is a life-long process. 

I think people under-socialize little dogs in general, for two reasons. First, they are so afraid of them getting hurt by bigger puppies. If the sessions are are well supervised by someone KNOWLEDGEABLE about puppy behavior and interaction, the risks are minimal. 

Second, I think people don't worry about it as much with their little dogs, thinking that "oh, if she acts nasty towards other dogs, I can just pick her up and stop her." The problem with this is that little dogs can get themselves in BIG trouble by challenging bigger dogs once they are adults. (in general, adult dogs are very tolerant of puppy antics, but one they are mature, the game changes completely) A big dog who would ignore, or even be friendly toward a little dog with good social skills could charge a little one who "just" gave him "the stare" with a clueless owner not paying attention. A snap just meant to put the other dog in his place can be deadly if you have two dogs badly mis-matched in size. Unfortunately, dogs don't always understand the difference in size, but they DO read challenging or aggressive body language.

I OFTEN see big dogs REACTING to a challenge made by a little dog with a clueless owner. The owner of the little dog thinks the big dog tried to "attack", when in reality, the little dog started the whole thing.

So IMO, good socialization is a HUGE safety issue for little dogs. Think of it as "inoculation" again getting themselves in big trouble later in life. It also makes your dog's life a lot more fun and interesting if s/he can safely and appropriately interact with other dogs. Kodi often goes on long off-leash walks in the woods with friends with German Shepherds and Labradors. They all get along great, and to them, Kodi is just one of the gang. He'd miss a lot of fun if he couldn't participate in these outings!


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## lkwilson (Mar 6, 2011)

Thanks guys, all great stuff. My trainer works with a place here in Dallas and she's going to get them to take coach without the 'third' set of shots that yes, they like everyone else requires.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Yay!! Good for you for advocating for your pup!


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Yes, good for you!!!!


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

lkwilson said:


> Thanks guys, all great stuff. My trainer works with a place here in Dallas and she's going to get them to take coach without the 'third' set of shots that yes, they like everyone else requires.


 Yea! Be sure to bring extra special treats to class I brought chicken breast Zoey thought that was geeerate! It was funny one day the pups went threw a tunnel and Zoey was the only one who would do it. I gave the other dogs Mom's some chicken and they all went threw!


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## lkwilson (Mar 6, 2011)

Suzi, They don't treat train.... but a great idea!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

lkwilson said:


> Suzi, They don't treat train.... but a great idea!


 no treat training.? Red flag to me.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

lkwilson said:


> Suzi, They don't treat train.... but a great idea!


If they don't treat train, how DO they train. Be very careful about trainers that use forceful or aversive methods. You want your dog to WANT to work with you! I get worried when I hear about a place that doesn't use treats when training puppies.


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## lkwilson (Mar 6, 2011)

I think I'm ready to jump off a bridge...


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

oh don't do that Laura, then your dog would never get trained. ound:


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Laura, It is often hard to find a good trainer, you need to do what you can to socialize your pup, while looking for that right trainer. To find a good one locally, you might try calling some of your local training clubs and breed clubs and just ask who are the good trainers. You can also look on Infodog and find a Obedience trial close to you take an hour go there observe get to know some the people and ask around. One of the most common questions at this kind of trial is who is your trainer? Also there is always a buzz about dogs that are trained by good trainers. It sometimes seems hard to find a good postive trainer, but we are only limited by how creative we go about finding one. We always find time to do what is really important to us, these are only suggestions to get you started. Best of luck.


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## lkwilson (Mar 6, 2011)

I think I have a good trainer... I like her. My vet recommended her. But she does private training, and sometimes works with the people that run the puppy kindergarten (that don't do treats) she also recommended them for day care and boarding. But they are also the ones that I referred to in my other post about reviews where they had some scary ones inserted into the mostly positive.

I'm new to the area and so I don't have many people to ask. :frusty:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Does your trainer use positive training methods? (treats and clicker training) This is very very important. The coercive methods that used to be "standard" in the dog world we now know are not only not necessary, but are counterproductive. Worst, they damage the relationship between you and your dog.


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## lkwilson (Mar 6, 2011)

Very much, no clicker but tons of praise and moderate amount of treats. She encourages moving away from treats once the command is really learned, or swapping out treats with no treats so it's not always a given. Coach gets crazy sometimes with the treats and stops paying attention. No negative, except if you catch them in the act of peeing/pooping in the wrong place say NO and take them immediately out to where they should be. She's also the one that discouraged me from using pee pads inside and moving them out to the balcony. I've only got two more sessions with her and want to move on to more of a group setting.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

lkwilson said:


> Very much, no clicker but tons of praise and moderate amount of treats. She encourages moving away from treats once the command is really learned, or swapping out treats with no treats so it's not always a given. Coach gets crazy sometimes with the treats and stops paying attention. No negative, except if you catch them in the act of peeing/pooping in the wrong place say NO and take them immediately out to where they should be. She's also the one that discouraged me from using pee pads inside and moving them out to the balcony. I've only got two more sessions with her and want to move on to more of a group setting.


It certainly sounds like she's telling you all the right things. I, personally, like clicker training when it's possible (it doesn't work in all settings) because a click registers faster in a dog brain than any words do. But it's certainly possible to train a dog effectively and humanely without it.

What did she say about the fact that the puppy kindergarten you are considering doesn't use any treats for training? What do they use instead?

I did a few 1-1 lessons with a trainer before we could get Kodi into a class too. I think you are doing the right thing. Some private lessons are great to get you going, but then working in a class with other puppies is what they really need!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Laura, I agree with Robbie, sometimes good trainers are hard to find. Depends alot where you live. If you want help , email me privately.


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## lkwilson (Mar 6, 2011)

I'll ask her next time I see her.


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