# Please weigh in on our fencing situation ...



## gypsymac4721 (Aug 22, 2013)

So Maestro is now 4 months old. A total love muffin, if I do say so myself. My carpool companion, soccer sideline buddy, and faithful companion! :angel:

So our neighborhood does not allow physical fences of any sort (except for the 4-foot iron type around pools, as required by low - we do not have a pool). So a physical fence is out of the question. In addition, we live at the edge of a greenbelt/common area that also has a stream - and because our yard and our neighbor's yard join with no barrier, we frequently see deer (usually 3-7 at a time, but one time up to 27!!) and occasionally a coyote (maybe 6 times in 3 years?), a fox (only twice), wild turkeys, and some other misc. wildlife.

Because of our wildlife situation, our family agreed that any and all trips outside had to be supervised. For now, either my husband or I go out because our girls (ages 6 and 9) are still too young to handle any situation that could arise -- though eventually they will be taking him outside as well. My point being: outside time is supervised. ALWAYS.

One other factor to consider is Maestro's personality. Thus far, he is a "velcro/bungee" dog. When I walk outside in the yard with him, it is rare that I'm able to get more than 20-30 feet away without him running to catch up with me. He will walk around a bit if I'm standing on our porch, but again, never farther than a let's say 30-foot radius around me -- and never (not once!) into our neighbor's yard on the left, the neighbor's yard on our right, or up the hill in the back of our yard.

Finally, on the few occasions when Maestro is outside and cannot be watched constantly (husband gardening in the front yard when I'm not home, me washing cars in the backyard during the day), he responds fairly well to being on a tie-out attached to his harness. So we always have that as an option, though obviously far from ideal.

So we are trying to decide whether an invisible fence is warranted. I did a search and read all the negative thoughts people have about them -- all of which is valid and helpful feedback. My husband thinks we need one so he has the free run of the yard. (We have roughly half an acre in the back so we are undecided as to whether we'd fence the front yard.) My viewpoint is that a.) we have to supervise him outside because of our wildlife, and since he doesn't show any inclination to run, what's the point? and b.) he won't even go out a door without an expressed written invitation now [seriously, I have to carry him outside - probably because he hasn't learned to go down steps yet], so I can't see bolting out a door being a problem either.

I guess my main question is this: was your dog's personality at 4 months pretty indicative of who s/he was as a grown dog? If he's a "homebody" now without an penchant for wandering or running off or barking, can I reasonably expect that to remain the same for year to come (even after being neutered)? I guess I can't see any reason FOR an invisible fence, especially knowing we can add it at any time. Maybe someone else has a different or helpful perspective?

Thanks in advance if you made it this far!


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## sandypaws (Aug 8, 2012)

My only comment is on the invisible fence debate you are having with yourself. You mentioned that there is a lot of wildlife in the area. That, to me, would not be a good scenario for an invisible fence, as it would make Maestro a sitting duck, so to speak, with the wildlife being able to get into the yard and him being the bait. God forbid you end up with a tragedy on your hands. I think that invisible fences could also be very traumatic for little dogs, especially if they are sensitive ones. I would never use one, but that's my opinion on the subject. Good luck with your dilemma.


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## RoutineAvocado (Feb 6, 2013)

I would just keep doing what you're doing. It sounds much safer than an invisible fence, especially because of the wildlife issue. Lots of Havanese don't have yards at all and do fine so it's not like he needs more freedom or romping time to be healthy and happy.

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## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

I second Mary's thoughts on the invisible fence. Additionally, it is too easy to rely on an invisible fence to step inside for just a minute giving wildlife or other dogs the opportunity to get to Maestro. Also at 4 months Maestro has not yet entered his adolescent period during which he isn't likely to stay as close to you all the time or to listen to you or a family member call him when he sees something else interesting. If he is outdoors with you he should be on a leash or long line and you should work to perfect your recall with him. A solid recall will take a long time to reach a point where most of the time Maestro will come to you even if something more interesting catches his attention. When you live where a real physical fence isn't an option you just have to be extra mindful about Maestro leaving your property or something else taking him off your property (human or beast). Would hate to see anything bad happen to the little fellow!


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

I think there are better uses for your money than investing it in an invisible fence. You could use the money to go on a family vacation with the dog for example! 

I just think that for a small dog, as Sandy Paws outlines there are some risks. He's going to want to be with you anyway, and if you're concerned about being able to play fetch outside etc, maybe you can find an enclosed schoolyard or other fenced-in area. Or get a really long line. My dog gets a ton of outdoor exercise in the form of walking and but we play fetch indoors as I have a pool in my backyard and not a lot of space anyway.


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## RoutineAvocado (Feb 6, 2013)

Oh, and to reply to your question, dogs can change a lot after 4 months. Maybe not the personality, but the behaviors will go through phases. Zelda NEVER barked at that age. Now she's a loud teenager and driving us crazy... But she's basically done teething. Things are regularly changing.

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## NickieTwo (Jun 17, 2013)

Coyotes are fast. If you've seen 6 in three years, you've probably just not seen the many more that are around. The only safe situation would be you holding him on a fairly short leash. Do you have a patio and, if so, are you allowed to fence or otherwise secure it? That might be your best choice.


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## tra_po (Aug 14, 2013)

RoutineAvocado said:


> Oh, and to reply to your question, dogs can change a lot after 4 months. Maybe not the personality, but the behaviors will go through phases. Zelda NEVER barked at that age. Now she's a loud teenager and driving us crazy... But she's basically done teething. Things are regularly changing.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I agree. Ludo used to follow me everywhere I went outside. Until one day he didn't. And now he's what we lovingly call "a runner" when he gets the chance.

If you didn't have all the wildlife despite everyone's feelings about the electric fence and in favor of people doing what works for their family, I would say you could try an electric fence. BUT it won't keep wildlife out as you know.

Could you ask your homeowner's if you can fence a small area off of your back porch? Is there an area that wouldn't be visible from the street? (And may I just say here that no fences is silly!) Or could you do the 4 ft iron one in a small area just off of the back?


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

I did end up getting a physical fence because Tim would end up wandering and I was fearful of my neighbor's dog. I will say however that I bought two indoor/outdoor expens that I use as my side fences, they are portable and have worked out great. Maybe you could do a temporary set up outside for Maestro to hang out in if you can't avidly watch him. I would be concerned with wildlife and I will attest that just because he doesn't leave your side now doesn't mean he won't later and it only takes one time to cause a problem trust me! Invisible fencing was not an option for me since I wanted to use it to keep things out plus I'm not sure Tim would react well to it since he's quite a sensitive guy.


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## Karen Collins (Mar 21, 2013)

You asked for feedback, so here's mine. I had an electric fence before we installed a wooden one. Not for my Havanese mind you, but for an Airedale we had years ago. My best friend has one for her German Shepherd. My sister-in-law had one for her Schnauzer. So my opinion is based on these close examples. None of these situations really worked well for one reason or another. Electric fences are a pain in the butt to keep up. All of us have had to replace wire underground multiple times. All of our dogs have broken through the fence rendering it useless. And all of our dogs developed some serious neurosis due to fear of fence. 

With that said, an electric fence leaves the collared dog inside very vulnerable to outside things coming in. So they are completely unprotected in that respect. A Havanese is a sensitive, small companion dog that really doesn't require lengthy periods of time outdoors unsupervised away from his people. I just don't see that it makes sense from a practical, humane or protective standpoint. I think you will find like most people that have tried them, they are a waste of time and money.

I'd spend the money on obedience classes to train my pooch to stay close by and obey recall. Plus you too will benefit from taking him outside on a leash routinely for fresh air and exercise. 

Also, the xpen idea for portable fencing is great!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Karen Collins said:


> You asked for feedback, so here's mine. I had an electric fence before we installed a wooden one. Not for my Havanese mind you, but for an Airedale we had years ago. My best friend has one for her German Shepherd. My sister-in-law had one for her Schnauzer. So my opinion is based on these close examples. None of these situations really worked well for one reason or another. Electric fences are a pain in the butt to keep up. All of us have had to replace wire underground multiple times. All of our dogs have broken through the fence rendering it useless. And all of our dogs developed some serious neurosis due to fear of fence.
> 
> With that said, an electric fence leaves the collared dog inside very vulnerable to outside things coming in. So they are completely unprotected in that respect. A Havanese is a sensitive, small companion dog that really doesn't require lengthy periods of time outdoors unsupervised away from his people. I just don't see that it makes sense from a practical, humane or protective standpoint. I think you will find like most people that have tried them, they are a waste of time and money.
> 
> ...


Great post!


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## tra_po (Aug 14, 2013)

krandall said:


> Great post!


Agreed!


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## clyindy (Dec 8, 2009)

*Another experience*

I think Havanese are known to be escapers - I know SiSi loves to get away. I would not leave your dog outside unattended if there is a threat to his safety. But, my concern is that Havanese can bolt very fast and he could run away - they are hard to catch once on the run.

I found that the Petsafe Play and Stay wireless fence works for me. The radio unit (in your house) broadcasts in a circle outside and you determine the size. The collar has 6 settings including just beep. I lived in a condo community where I could not have a fence, and the radio unit worked perfectly. I trained SiSi with flags stuck in the ground (come with unit) where the limit was and rewarded her when we heard the beep. This took a few days using treats. There is a beep several feet before the dog reaches the outer edge of the circle. I set the correction on the lowest setting after the training phase and she only received a zap twice within several months. I tested it on my hand and it was uncomfortable but not painful. I would not use anything that would hurt her and would not recommend setting the control higher than 2. With the unit you can let him run around within the area and be assured that he will not run off and encounter a predator while you are chasing him. Also, as long as a dog is wearing one of the control collars, you can have an unlimited number of dogs in the circle. SiSi had a few dog friends with collars and they could romp and play without leashes. You can check the Petsafe website to learn more and see reviews. The company is really good in answering questions - you can talk with them on the phone. Again, this is what works for SiSi and me. We now live in a house with a big year, but still use the Petsafe fence.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I would never do an electric fence for all the reason others stated. Plus, people steal dogs......and they are inhumane. 

I have a fenced in yard. It's pretty much just a big pee/ poo pad! The dogs don't go outside because they want to be inside with me. The only time they will come outside is when I am mowing the lawn. Even then it's only for a few minutes....

I say stay with what you are doing


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

I do not like the idea of the other predators getting to the dog.
It happens very fast.
On this forum, a hav taken by a mountain cat in California. So fast and the owners were right there. I still grieve for that family (we all do).
Best to use a leash outdoors. Let dog run around inside.


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## Montgomery's Mommy (Jan 13, 2012)

Prior to our two Havanese we now own, Monty and Mia, we had a wheaten terrier. We had invisible fence at our old home near a large park area and have at our new home on lake property. In both cases, there is wildlife; however have not seen one coyote in 10 years here on lake. But there were coyotes in the park area and we had one watch our dog from across the street that my husband had to chase off and one crept in our yard at night and tried to have a go at our wheaten with no luck because of his size and speed and my being there to get him inside. The fence has had no damage to any of our dogs nor made them freaked about fences. All our dogs know/knew that if they have/had their collar on they aren't going to cross the fence line. They do not feel anything that I haven't felt myself in testing the level of bite needed to get their attenion; however the first signal of beeping sound is usually enough to deter them from crossing. My little Mia now doesn't even have to wear her collar. she listens to "get back" as does Monty, but he is definitely more persistent because he thinks that he must protect our property from the outside world. He's just trying to do his job  Our wheaten didn't have to wear his collar either when he knew his boundaries. All this said, I do NOT leave them unattended in our yard EVER. Yes I may be doing something like gardening, but I always know where they are - because they like to be next to me most of the time. My husband calls me the Pied Piper  Monty used to be more like glue to me as an itty bitty boy, but Monty got stubborn at some point until Mia came along and thus Pied Piper relationship  I think when you have small dogs, you have to watch them all the time whether you have a fence or not. We live in AZ for the winters and live high on a ridge over a golf course. One night I was outside with Monty to go potty and a huge owl came flying at us and I was literally making eye contact with this owl and thought how cool....until I realized that he planned to scoop Monty up away from me! I made myself huge spreading out my arms and made loud noise and scooped Monty up myself as the owl swooper over us! Hence, always watch these little love puppies. Everyone has opinions, you need to do what's best for you and your puppy because you know your diligence to care for you puppy. I don't depend on the invisible fence, but it is a protection I use in addition to my supervision and training. I also don't make them wear the collar 24/7. Only put on them if they are going outside with me for a long period because for potty time we are outside to do job and right back in the house and they watch me as closely as I watch them, the cuties. Hope this is helpful.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

I know this post is long, but please read it in its entirety because it contains both Pros and Cons, and only reading parts of it, may affect your decision. I also hope you will find it unbiased and objective.

The negatives are listed first and the counter arguments are below. The post is meant to be informative, and is not meant to lead you to any particular conclusion. The differing Pros and Cons can be situationally dependent upon your own individual circumstances and needs.

The decision to install an invisible fence should not be taken lightly. Invisible fences require more responsibility and diligence than physical fences because improper use and training can be harmful to your dog. If you answer no to any of these questions, then I would never recommend an invisible fence:

1.	Do you plan to watch and supervise your dog when you take him/her outside?
2.	Do you regularly change the batteries in your smoke detector and flashlights?
3.	Do you have the time to spend 15 minutes, twice a day for 4 weeks to positively train your dog to respect the boundary?

The reason these questions are critical is because they define what an invisible fence does and does not do, and each of the reciprocal answers can hurt your dog:

1.	An invisible fence does not keep predators out of your yard. If you want to leave your dog unattended while you work around the house, an invisible fence will not protect your dog.

2.	The collar works on batteries, so if you neglect to replace the batteries, your dog will not be contained

3.	If your dog cannot be positively trained to respect the boundaries and the containment relies mostly on positive punishment (shock for approaching the boundary), your dog can develop significant behavioral problems, including but not limited to the following:

a.	Aggression
b.	Fear
c.	Stress
d.	Helplessness

I obtained the following email directly from the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA) when I was researching the Original Invisible Fence:

_"Our policy at the ASPCA is to prefer and promote reward-based methods of training. However, we recognize that there are communities in which fencing is not permitted and we would far prefer the dog be contained electronically than be allowed to run loose or be tethered (a prime risk factor for serious dog bites). Our policy states that, in the event a dog cannot be contained with a physical fence, we consider electronic containment acceptable.

One of our Animal behaviorists reviewed the the materials herself for accuracy and ensured that the training they recommend is both effective and humane. She was also able to keep a watchful eye for unreasonable claims."_

I also contacted two Professional Trainers certified in Positive Based Training with CPDT-KA credentials. Their advice was generally conflicting, but some similarities helped to resolve the issues. I ended up hiring Trainer #2 to help with Gibb's training, including positive based training to respect our Property Boundary.

Trainer #1:
_"Based on the information you gave, I would support the use of an invisible containment system. &#8230; Invisible fences create a consistent boundary that doesn't change. Avoidance of the boundary is what should happen. There are some chances of increased aggression if a dog is left outside in a high-traffic area and becomes frustrated by the confinement. The only concern is using too much aversion in training a 14 week old puppy. This is time when you should be emphasizing positive imprinting of new experiences which will last a lifetime. Be careful that the pup doesn't have a negative association with the world around them._

Trainer #2:
_ "I hate them (Invisible Fences). They are not fences. They do not prevent other animals from entering your property . For a small dog, it still leaves them vulnerable to loose dogs and other loose animals. &#8230; I think that people do not put the time into training them appropriately. The dog never has to feel the shock &#8230; If the dog is permitted to go through when the batteries are dead but, they get shocked other times, it can lead to a lot of uncertainty and confusion which can lead to behavior problems including aggression &#8230; A 13 week old puppy - I'm sorry, but I really think that is way too young. &#8230; If you train them to voluntarily back up when they hear the beep, and you train it well, the dog never had to feel the shock &#8230; I could probably do a better job of teaching her how to respect the boundary._

The Original Invisible Fence training is Positive Based Training

Day 1 - In house training. The flags are set around a mobile unit emitting the signal in about a 6 inch radius. The collar is set for a "tickle" and the sound. I put the collar in my hand and at first didn't even realize it was working, that's how low it was. The entire week was spent praising Gibbs every time he approached the flags and retreated. He only approached the flags about 2 or 3 times the first two days and didn't approach them again.

Day 2 - (The next week) Same collar settings. The flags were placed outside around the perimeter of the house. The hour was spent bringing Gibbs to the flags and praising him every time he retreated. We were instructed to spend at least 15 minutes every day, twice a day, bringing Gibbs to the flags and praising him for retreating.

Day 3 - (The next week). It WAS the Invisible Fence Trainer's intention to raise the level of the collar to what they feel is the appropriate "correction level" for our dog, and let him feel one shock. Upon advice from Trainer #2, we did not them raise the level.  The training time was spent working on "distraction" training where Dana and I played on the other side of the boundary and Gibbs was rewarded for retreating from the boundary line.

Trainer #2's Comments on the training:
_"Well, so long as you do the training in between sessions it sounds like the training is OK. He does not have to ever feel the shock. Do not let them shock him. He is too young"_

I discussed my trainer's (#2) concerns regarding the how young my puppy was, and we agreed not to increase the correction level of the collar. We continued with weeks of Positive Based training on respecting the boundary.

Based upon my personal discussions with ASPCA, trainer #1 and trainer #2, the key issue was whether or not the "Invisible" Boundary was observable enough to our puppy so that Gibbs could readily associate his behavior (approaching the boundary), with a stimuli - positive reward for retreating or even a negative consequence such as mild correction or "shock", and in regards to the correction, whether the "shock" was consistently applied and timed. When Trainer #2 correctly asserted that she could positively train Gibbs to respect the "Invisible" Fence boundary, she acknowledged that Gibbs could be taught to perceive the boundary and associate his behavior with a Positive Stimuli or reward. Consequently, it also meant Gibbs could perceive the "Invisible" Boundary and associate his behavior with a Negative Stimuli. The relevance of such is documented in the "Schalke Study":

Schalke et al. study (2007):
_" ... From this the researchers concluded that the dogs who could clearly associate the shock with their action (i.e. touching the prey) and as a result were able to predict and control whether they received a shock, did not show considerable or persistent stress (which is what leads to the negative behaviors discussed above). The evidence of increased stress in the other groups was felt to support earlier findings that poor timing and/or inappropriate use of a shock collar puts the dog at high risk of severe and ongoing stress. They conclude that "The results of this study suggest that poor timing in the application of high level electric pulses, such as those used in this study, means there is a high risk that dogs will show severe and persistent stress symptoms. We recommend that the use of these devices should be restricted with proof of theoretical and practical qualification required and then the use of these devices should only be allowed in strictly specified situations."_

I can no longer find the article to quote, so you will have to take my word or reject the following paraphrase:
_"The president of ASCPA acknowledged in a press release and in support of certain electronic containment systems, that the technology has improved sufficiently to produce a consistent and appropriately timed correction/"shock"."_

Our experience, which can be different all others:
Purchasing the Original Invisible Fence was one of the best decisions Dana and I have made. That decision was contingent upon the following:
1.	Providing over a month of Positive Based Training, rewarding Gibbs for retreating from the boundary.
2.	NOT allowing Gibbs to feel a full correction at a young age.
3.	Properly supervising Gibbs, and NOT allowing Gibbs to remain outside by himself and unsupervised.
4.	Maintaining the integrity of the Invisible Fence by changing the batteries and monitoring the system.

Gibbs loves to be able to run freely in our yard. He respects the boundary. We have observed him running at full speed from the one end of our yard to the other and stop about a foot from the boundary when the little girl from next door comes out. He will patiently sit waging his tail in excitement until she steps over the boundary so they can play. He will do the same with his doggy friend Nico and some of our other neighbors. He does not bark incessantly at people on the other side, and the few times he has walked into the boundary, he has immediately retreated without a cry or whimper. The correction is set at 60% of the recommended level. I have walked into the field myself with the collar pressed against my neck or tongue. Although not "pleasant", it isn't painful or hurtful.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> I can no longer find the article to quote, so you will have to take my word or reject the following paraphrase:
> _"The president of ASCPA acknowledged in a press release and in support of certain electronic containment systems, that the technology has improved sufficiently to produce a consistent and appropriately timed correction/"shock"."_


I finally found the quote to which I was referring:

Randall Lockwood PhD, Senior Vice President, Anti-cruelty Initiatives and Legislative Services, The American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA) was quoted in a 2007 White Paper titled "The Facts About Modern Electronic Training Devices," produced by Radio Systems, a manufacturer of shock collars, "We recognize that older products were often unreliable and difficult to use humanely. But we feel that new technology employed by responsible manufacturers has led to products that can be and are being used safely and effectively to preserve the safety and well-being of many dogs and strengthen the bond with their human companions. "

It is my recollection that this quote was referring specifically to electronic containment systems, such as the Invisible Fence, as opposed to all training shock collars.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

sorry John ,.I don't buy any of it. If you acknowledge that you have to supervise, anyway, it is much easier to train boundaries without shock. Read some articles by behaviorists not the SPCA there are thousands if you look. Shock is Positive Punishment that's how it works. and that's what "positive " trainers try to avoid. http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/Combined_Punishment_Statements.pdf

"Such tools 'work' by engendering fear, pain, and distrust,
and in doing so they cause long-term damage that make
dogs more reactive, less trusting, and less able to reach their
full potential in their partnership with humans, no matter
what form that partnership takes. These are not my opinions:
these are the findings from the scientific literature, and
this is an essential point."

Dr. Karen Overall VMD, PhD, Diplomate ACVB


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## Karen Collins (Mar 21, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> sorry John ,.I don't buy any of it. If you acknowledge that you have to supervise, anyway, it is much easier to train boundaries without shock. Read some articles by behaviorists not the SPCA there are thousands if you look. Shock is Positive Punishment that's how it works. and that's what "positive " trainers try to avoid. http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/Combined_Punishment_Statements.pdf
> 
> "Such tools 'work' by engendering fear, pain, and distrust,
> and in doing so they cause long-term damage that make
> ...


:clap2:


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## Ruthiec (Jun 18, 2013)

I'm so thankful that we have a fully fenced yard so that I have not had to face this dilemma. John I know that you are going to get a number of replies disagreeing but I can tell from all your posts how much you love Gibbs and so would never do anything which you felt was harming him. 

I have no experience or knowledge in this area so all I can say is that I respect any decision which is made in this manner - i.e. thoughtful, researched and properly implemented.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> sorry John ,.I don't buy any of it.


I'm not sure what there is for you to "buy". The Original Poster asked for opinions and experiences with the Invisible Fence. I gave a detailed description of my experience, the steps we went through to research it, the training we provided Gibbs and the results we've experienced. You really have no basis with which to question my experience. You are however welcome to come to Pittsburgh and see for yourself, or send a colleague within your network. If you PM me, I'd be more than willing to give you my address.



davetgabby said:


> you acknowledge that you have to supervise, anyway, it is much easier to train boundaries without shock.


That's exactly what I said and exactly what we did. Please re-read the first paragraph of my post which is quoted below:


Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> ...3. Do you have the time to spend 15 minutes, twice a day for 4 weeks to positively train your dog to respect the boundary?
> ...
> 3. If your dog cannot be positively trained to respect the boundaries and the containment relies mostly on positive punishment (shock for approaching the boundary), your dog can develop significant behavioral problems, including but not limited to the following:
> 
> ...


We spent 4+ weeks positively training Gibbs to respect the boundaries. The white flags provided the visual boundary, which was reinforced with an audio beep and a collar vibration, and before you suggest otherwise, the vibration was a vibration, not a shock. We spent 15 minutes twice a day teaching Gibbs to respect the boundary. He knew the boundaries and respected them before the collar delivered anything that could remotely be considered a shock. The setting the collar is on now can barely be called a shock. If you've ever used a "Tens Unit" for your back, it's similar to that. The reason it's still necessary to supervise, is because an electronic fence does not keep predators out.



davetgabby said:


> sorry John ,.I don't buy any of it.


Knowledge begins with the three simple words "I don't know", and wisdom ends when one believes they have all the answers. There are many reputable organizations and positive based trainers who accept the use of Invisible Fences and have learned how to train dogs to respect the boundaries without fear, pain and intimidation. You would have us believe that they are somehow less informed or less knowledgeable than positive based trainers who are so dogmatic in their belief that they believe telling a dog "No" is inappropriate. They are no less no knowledgeable, no less informed and not purely trained, they simply have a different opinion and have possibly learned otherwise. You would have us believe the use of an Invisible Fence has been factually proven "wrong", but studies like the Schalke study scientifically and empirically demonstrate otherwise.



davetgabby said:


> sorry John ,.I don't buy any of it.


I know you don't. You still compare and analogize the Invisible Fence system and training to the Shock Collar training of 30, 20 or even 10 years ago. It's an apples to oranges comparison. If you still believe the Invisible Fence relies upon fear and pain to train the dogs to respect the boundary, than you know surprising little about the Company, their training methods and their technology.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

John I respect your decision to do what you want, I 'm telling you what the vast majority of "positive " trainers have learned. In our organization , there are only a couple of people who endorse these fences , and they acknowledge that it is only in rare cases. They are highly skilled trainers and know how to minimize the aversiveness. I have been listening to this debate for eight years and it goes nowhere . We studied this at IPDTA and overwhelmingly voted that it was not a good thing in general. Like I said you are entitled to your opinion , I just want to tell you mine. I could give you a hundred more articles to read, but that would be pointless. And please don't make ignorant remarks about positive trainers, I don't believe you know much about them with a remark like that.


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