# Need help with teeth



## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

I have been very good about brushing DJangos teeth everyday or every other day since he had them cleaned for the 6th time (it's become a yearly appointment) but for the life of me, I can't keep them clean. There are times where I am out of town for a couple of days and the dog sitter is not comfortable brushing his teeth so he might go a few days without a brushing however with what I am doing, they are terrible.

I don't know if his Addisons, prednisone, meds., baby Gas-ex, etc. are having a negative effect on his teeth. I am also concerned he may have a cavity. Don't know if this is possible but there's a tiny black dot on his back molar. He has an appointment next week with the vet for his shot so I am going to have him check things out but I wanted to reach out to see if anyone had any other suggestions to clean teeth other than brushing. I also have heard of a product called LEBAII that's suppose to work but have yet to try it.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

Here are a few ideas:

1. If your dog sitter isn't comfortable brushing his teeth, ask him/her to have Django lick the toothpaste off his/her finger.

2. Make sure he has a plethora of chews toys that are good for the teeth. Rib Bones, etc.

3. Raw Meaty Bones

4. Try Greenies/Dentastix and other dental chews.

5. What kind of food are you feeding him? Contrary to popular belief, dry kibble is not the best for keeping teeth clean. Many of the Raw Frozen foods contain crushed bone that functions as a mild abrasive that helps keep teeth clean.

6. Petzlife Oral Care also works well. Check with your Vet to make sure the ingredients aren't contra indicated for his varios health issues.

Grape Seed Extract 
Helps prevent dental plaque 
Helps mitigate oral and gum diseases 
Contains Proanthocyanidins (Potent antioxidant properties)

Grapefruit Seed Extract 
High in vitamin C, E and bioflavonoids 
Excellent at alkalizing body fluids 
Reduces periodontal inflammation 
Detoxifies, enhances and supports immune function

Grain Alcohol
Anti-bacterial
Holds ingredients in suspension 
Catalyst for ingredients efficacy

Thyme Oil 
Natural antimicrobial properties 
Helps control the pathogenic organisms responsible for tooth decay, gingivitis, and bad breath.

Neem Oil 
Helps prevent bacteria from adhering to teeth (reduce plaque) 
Helps prevent and reverse gum disease 
Natural breath freshener with antibacterial properties

Peppermint Oil 
Very potent antiseptic properties 
Helps to battle bad breath bacteria 
Contains omega-3 fatty acids, Vitamin A and Vitamin C

http://www.petzlife.com/catalog/oral-care-products/oral-care-gel-peppermint.html

Good luck.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

Here are some other links I've found, but I have not "Vetted" the information. Maybe others can opine on these:

http://www.1800petmeds.com/C.E.T.+Oral+Hygiene+Chews+For+Dogs-prod10443.html

http://pets.webmd.com/dogs/dog-dental-treats

http://www.virbacvet.com/products/d...al-hygiene-chews-for-dogs/dental-health/chews
(this product is listed below)

http://www.vohc.org/accepted_products.htm


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Agree with Gibbs Mom and Dad re raw meaty bones; Tycho, my Coton's teeth were problematic until I got him on a chicken wing for breakfast, and other raw bones; they are absolutely right too re kibble - it coats the teeth and is horrible stuff. There's a very, very good book called "The Science Behind Canine Raw Feeding" by H. Turner - it's available in e format or ordinary (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...words=The+Science+behind+raw+feeding+for+dogs)
It will fill you in on some of the recent research, there's a lot on periodontal disease, and other health issues, and the stats on what happens when you change to raw are impressive. Poor Django! I do hope you manage to turn it around. Cuba has always had bones and raw + Ziwipeak, and has, at least so far, perfect teeth. Tychy's are getting better now.


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## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

1. Django loves having his teeth brushed.

2. Make sure he has a plethora of chews toys that are good for the teeth. Rib Bones, 
He does not chew on any chew toys or bones. I have bought him everything from antlers to lambs ears, nyla bones, etc. and he has NO interest. I have truly tried everything .

3. Raw Meaty Bones- no can do. HE has beef, lamb allergies and meaty bones are too fatty for his sensitive belly

4. Try Greenies/Dentastix and other dental chews. REFUSES. I have tried them all.

5. What kind of food are you feeding him? I feed him Kibble and raw is not an option for us do to his past health history.

6. Petzlife Oral Care also works well. Check with your Vet to make sure the ingredients aren't contra indicated for his varios health issues. I will look into this.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

littlebuddy said:


> 1. Django loves having his teeth brushed.
> 
> 2. Make sure he has a plethora of chews toys that are good for the teeth. Rib Bones,
> He does not chew on any chew toys or bones. I have bought him everything from antlers to lambs ears, nyla bones, etc. and he has NO interest. I have truly tried everything .
> ...


Please please consider that many of these allergies can be precipitated by diet in the first place; I've been this route. It took time to get Tycho off food that he could tolerate but that was harming him; I have the greatest respect for vets on most counts, but absolutely NOT on the question of nutrition. We had a bad time transferring, but now have NO allergies, NO stomach problems, NO continuing teeth issues. Fat is truly, honestly, faithfully, sincerely NOT the problem. Grain is the problem. Simple carbohydrates, including nice, innocuous, plain, benign-sounding rice. Perhaps DaveT can come to the rescue with some expertise from Sabine; maybe it will even contradict me. But everything I personally have found, and all that I have read says that things have to get worse to get better, but that getting away from too many carbohydrates and not enough protein and bone is the way to go if we have the courage to get through the potentially difficult transition. I would implore you to read that book even if you never go down this route - it is an education, as are the films posted by DaveT on another thread, by a vet called Dr Becker, I think&#8230;.I'll see if I can find the link, or hope that Dave comes in on this and can remind us.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

The Dr Becker videos are on Page 2 of the thread Primal or Ziwipeak, little buddy; so have a look at them! And please don't feel either despair, or bullied by people like me - I'm just sort of evangelical, having suffered so much myself and finally, finally got through it all. Tycho absolutely refused raw food point blank until I first got him onto Ziwipeak, which is air-dried raw, and then onto a commercial raw called Wolf Tucker (I think that's only available in the UK, but their website is interesting); he now has no digestive problems. It's hard not to be pushy when life can so change for the better!! But please don't think I'm being anything other than feeling for you in your predicament. I guess all Im hoping you might do is read up a bit on some of the research, and listen to Dr Becker's videos that might give you the courage to move into a different gear, even if it is hard to begin with. When I watch Tycho hoovering up his Wolf Tucker (my small, white, fluffy Coton wolf!!) it just makes me so sympathetic to all that you are going through, and SO want to help!!!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

probably the kibble along with the fact that some dogs are just more prone to tartar. They generally don't get cavities per se. I've said it before and I will say it again , you need to consult with someone like Sabine and improve your food choice. , she works with dogs like Django all the time.


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## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

Well, I know raw is not an option, and this was confirmed by my vet, my holistic vet and Sabine. I do need to find a chew that he can tolerate but it's been so difficult to find something. He's off all the bad stuff, truly eats healthy out of necessity. Fat is also something I need to keep tabs on, per vet, holistic vet………due to pancreatitis (2x) colitis, and a bunch of other problems. 

Thanks for the info however, my feeling is if there is even one piece of information that can be helpful, then I am in good shape and can continue to research my problem with my beautiful Hav.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

littlebuddy said:


> Well, I know raw is not an option, and this was confirmed by my vet, my holistic vet and Sabine. I do need to find a chew that he can tolerate but it's been so difficult to find something. He's off all the bad stuff, truly eats healthy out of necessity. Fat is also something I need to keep tabs on, per vet, holistic vet&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;due to pancreatitis (2x) colitis, and a bunch of other problems.
> 
> Thanks for the info however, my feeling is if there is even one piece of information that can be helpful, then I am in good shape and can continue to research my problem with my beautiful Hav.


All we can do is our best, which I can see you have. Since you've already consulted with Sabine, I'm sure you're doing the best you can with the food.

Have you tried these chews:

http://www.virbacvet.com/products/d...al-hygiene-chews-for-dogs/dental-health/chews

Since he will let you brush his teeth, how do you think he'd react to flossing (don't let him eat the floss).

http://www.doggiedentalaid.com/

Or dog toys that can act as floss:

http://www.wag.com/html/sg/dog-dental-floss-ball.html

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3307+3+124+26246&pcatid=26246

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3307+3+124+26648&pcatid=26648

Please know I'm just brainstorming with you now and have no idea how well the above products may work, if at all. You may have even tried them.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

littlebuddy said:


> Well, I know raw is not an option, and this was confirmed by my vet, my holistic vet and Sabine. I do need to find a chew that he can tolerate but it's been so difficult to find something. He's off all the bad stuff, truly eats healthy out of necessity. Fat is also something I need to keep tabs on, per vet, holistic vet&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;due to pancreatitis (2x) colitis, and a bunch of other problems.
> 
> Thanks for the info however, my feeling is if there is even one piece of information that can be helpful, then I am in good shape and can continue to research my problem with my beautiful Hav.


I doubt Sabine would recommend kibble. As a matter of fact , here are her words on Addisons. I would focus on sufficient high quality protein to maintain good muscle tone and healthy tissues, and exclude any types of highly processed types - especially kibble, and even more especially if it contains rendered meat meal" Home cooked is always an option.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

The paragraph below is from a link that didn't post correctly, and not my words. The link that did post correctly is where you can buy it.

Again, just throwing stuff on a wall to see if anything sticks.

CHLORHEXIDINE ORAL RINSE and GEL: Chlorhexidine is the most effective anti-plaque antiseptic. Chlorhexidine binds to the oral tissues and tooth surfaces, and is gradually released into the oral cavity. It is safe for pets and rarely causes problems, though it does have a bitter taste if palatability enhancers suitable for dogs are not included. Some dogs may object to the taste of products containing chlorhexidine while others accept it with no difficulty. The rinse is applied by squirting a small amount inside the cheek on each side of the mouth. The gel is applied by smearing it onto the teeth. The tongue and lips will spread the rinse or gel around the mouth.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=24579


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> I doubt Sabine would recommend kibble. As a matter of fact , here are her words on Addisons. I would focus on sufficient high quality protein to maintain good muscle tone and healthy tissues, and exclude any types of highly processed types - especially kibble, and even more especially if it contains rendered meat meal" Home cooked is always an option.


Are you suggesting he misunderstood Sabine or didn't really consult with her?

What does she recommend for Addisons, pancreatitis (2x), colitis, and a bunch of other problems?

I think we should focus on giving the best advice we can under the parameters specified, and not question the veracity of the O.P.

Maybe his dog has unique medical conditions and Kibble is the best alternative.

Maybe there are other limitations he hasn't or isn't willing to share that make Kibble the only alternative.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I'm saying to contact Sabine, but she refuses to do so.


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

littlebuddy said:


> Well, I know raw is not an option, and this was confirmed by my vet, my holistic vet and Sabine... Fat is also something I need to keep tabs on, per vet, holistic vet&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;due to pancreatitis (2x) colitis, and a bunch of other problems.


Sounds like she _has _contacted Sabine, and a holistic vet is involved as well. Django is fortunate to have such a devoted guardian.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

emichel said:


> Sounds like she _has _contacted Sabine, and a holistic vet is involved as well. Django is fortunate to have such a devoted guardian.


yes she has but she is not listening to the advice. So be it. You came on here dozens of times over the years looking for advice. And that's fine. But over and over again a number of us have told you to seek further advice from someone knowledgeable. And you have. You have not followed the most important advice regarding nutrition. You have tried to do it on your own. And that is the mistake I am alluding to. I know Sabine has discussed these issues with you ,but you fail to follow up. That\s where I think you're going wrong. If I were the only person thinking this, I wouldn't bring it up again.


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

Oh well, I guess I'm out of the loop, so what else is new?


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

here's more on this topic just in this week http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2014/01/01/pet-oral-health.aspx


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## Den&Barb (Dec 6, 2013)

Got that in an e-mail from Dr. Becker yesterday. Check out her Dental and Gentle Dental Dog Bones.
http://shop.mercola.com/catalog/dog-bones,94,2.htm


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

There are so many problems that dogs (and people) have due to a bad diet. I also think that going to the vet too much can cause problems. It starts a cycle of medications etc. that is simply never ending.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

It could perhaps be that poor little Django doesn't like any kind of chew because, if his teeth are already in trouble, it actually hurts to chew??


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

emichel said:


> Oh well, I guess I'm out of the loop, so what else is new?


Me too, but that shouldn't matter. A member of this forum posted a thread asking for help. I seriously doubt any of us have the full story. The O.P. stated that Kibble is the only option at this point. Unless we were personally involved in the consultations, have first hand knowledge of the demographics, home situation, financial situation, health situations, behavioral situation et. al., we should accept the premise and answer accordingly. To do otherwise is judgemental, accusatory and not in the spirit of the forum.

Additionally, many owners feed their furbabies Kibble without experiencing serious dental problems, especially when they take the time to brush their teeth daily. Had I known this had been previously discussed, I would have never mentioned changing the food because it had the unintended consequence of providing a platform for an attack on the O.P.

I don't care what the history is because a member of this forum cared enough to ask for help under a specific set of circumstances, and I believe the spirit of this forum is to provide help, ideas and advice without questioning the motives and veracity of those asking for it. However, since I'm a relatively new member, maybe I'm full of sh!t.

All I know is that if I had been the O.P, I couln't have been more offended yesterday and probably would have terminated my membership.


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

What I have always wondered with this little dog is if the Revolution (flea product) is part of his problem. I remember reading that this little dog takes it and I have heard that it is not a good product for havanese.


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## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

Actually I have contacted Sabine, probably a dozen times over the course of 2 years and again, just about month ago.

And after my conversation with her, and my conversation with my husband and my vet and my holistic vet, we felt her "meal plan" was not best for my dog with all his health issues. Of course home cooked is preferred but to make the transition she is recommending would take up to a year and there would be too many bumps in the road we are not willing to take or risk with our dog due to his health problems.


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## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

And just a side note, I appreciate everyones input and suggestions however no one knows my dog better than I do. Not all havs are created equal.


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

What does your holistic vet say about Revolution? I would be interested in hearing their opinion on that product.


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## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

And one last thing, thanks Gibbs mom, I appreciate the support. My dog is 10 years old and is doing great, i really don't think ANYONE on the forum cares to hear my long stories about all the ups and downs to his life. I would be typing for days. I look to this forum for advise but never felt if I didn't take someones advise I should no longer ask for help.

I actually have an appointment next week with holistic vet and will discuss revolution, it's on my list. Will post what I find out.


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

Isn't that the truth, that we know our dogs better than anyone else. Sounds like you're doing a lot of things right; consulting multiple professionals and then using your own expertise about Django's health and well being to determine the right treatment plan for him. Good luck with next steps.  -Jeanne-


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## sandypaws (Aug 8, 2012)

littlebuddy said:


> And just a side note, I appreciate everyones input and suggestions however no one knows my dog better than I do. Not all havs are created equal.


I totally agree. Each knows their own and no one has walked in your shoes.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

littlebuddy said:


> And one last thing, thanks Gibbs mom, I appreciate the support. My dog is 10 years old and is doing great, i really don't think ANYONE on the forum cares to hear my long stories about all the ups and downs to his life. I would be typing for days. I look to this forum for advise but never felt if I didn't take someones advise I should no longer ask for help.
> 
> I actually have an appointment next week with holistic vet and will discuss revolution, it's on my list. Will post what I find out.


With all the extremely serious health problems Django has had, i think the fact that you've managed him this long is to be commended. Many people would have thrown in the towel long ago!


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

littlebuddy said:


> And one last thing, thanks Gibbs mom, I appreciate the support. My dog is 10 years old and is doing great, i really don't think ANYONE on the forum cares to hear my long stories about all the ups and downs to his life. I would be typing for days. I look to this forum for advise but never felt if I didn't take someones advise I should no longer ask for help.
> 
> I actually have an appointment next week with holistic vet and will discuss revolution, it's on my list. Will post what I find out.


Thank you! My holistic vet hates Advantix, but it seems to be the only thing that works during tick season


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## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

Well, looks like we found something he likes!


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

littlebuddy said:


> Well, looks like we found something he likes!


What is it?


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## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

It's a Nyla bone.


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

He's such a cutie!


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

littlebuddy said:


> It's a Nyla bone.


Weird, I thought it was one of those binder clips that are used to hold paper together, and was scratching my head about that one.  I'm glad to hear that it's something more normal, and that he likes it!


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## andra (Aug 23, 2010)

Well, I feel your pain and I wish I had something constructive to contribute. I was in the same boat with Dionna. As a puppy, she began to get a signficiant tarter buildup despite my using this liquid dental product from the vet daily (which was mentioned already in this thread). Dionna also has some chronic low level GI issues and a sensitive stomach and I have slowly transitioned to a mainly home cooked diet with just a little kibble in the am and two fromm 'cookies' before bed as her snack (supplemented with a little boiled chicken). But despite this, the tarter continued to build up and my vet was stunned at the amount of build up. Anyway, even after a professional cleaning at the vet (and a small cyst was removed from her hip so I did two procedures with just one anesthesia), her tarter began to build up again almost immediately. 

Most chews she could not tolerate or would not touch. The dental chews from the vet were a disaster--one chew led to gastric upset and loose/smelly poops for over 8 days and other chews also led to major problems. One evening, my water bottle top fell and Dionna began to chew on it (I took it away immediately of course) and I noticed that a big piece of tarter had come off from one of her side teeth. I know, how awful--but it illustrates how much had built up. Anyway, after that, I knew she needed some kind of chew and I was just at a loss as to how to proceed.

Well, my neighbor (who has a shiitzu who is Dionna's buddy) gave me a rawhide chew that is made in the USA and is sold at the organic health food store--it looks like a mini taquito. Dionna LOVED it and then..a miracle happened. After chewing on this chew (I let her chew on it for about 10 minutes a day just because I was initially worried about gastric/poop issues), we had no issues AND all of her tarter is now gone. Her teeth look absolutely clean with no buildup and her breath is fresh. So now almost daily I let her chew on this but for a time limited amount of time and it is working.

I share this just to offer you support and to empathize with your struggle. My Dionna has some quirks but I love her more than I could ever put into words. I hope you find a chew that your furbaby can tolerate because, IMHO, that will help with the build up.

Keep us posted and he is a cutie pie in that picture


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

I think that sometimes one is so desperate to be of help that emotion can get in the way. Concern can take all sorts of forms, and managing not to take offence at any advice given is a skill and a virtue if it gets one any closer to a move in the right direction. I'm sure causing offence is the last thing that any of us would wish to do; sorrow at a situation, and a passion to try and do one's best to help solve it can make the best of us seem sometimes to be strident in our opinions. If I am guilty then I certainly apologise; I know I can get evangelical on the topic of diet, both for dogs and humans - I guess if one has solved one's own problems one can feel this burning desire to save the world, and that can come across as pushing too hard where certainly no offence is intended. We love our dogs and want to do our best for them, and our best is all we CAN do, with open mind and ears. It is so very hard when we have a dog with problems. When my first Coton became ill with this hideous disease, Protothecosis, I had advice hurtling in from all directions. It was a fantastically rare disease about which most people, including most vets, knew nothing. We managed two years with a punishing treatment regime, and managed not to take offence at well-wishers, anecdotal (based always on irrelevant anecdotes) advice, and, as far as diet was concerned, flying in the face of all veterinary counsel. I am sure that, thanks of course to the treatment, but thanks, too, to her diet she lived for two years instead of the predicted two months. I am so totally convinced that the problem for us and our dogs is our omnivorousness - it's an interesting evolutionary conundrum, isn't it - if you can ONLY eat, say, bamboo shoots you could starve to death if they are unavailable. But if you can eat all sorts of things then you have a ready food supply but you may be doing yourself on-going lower-level harm. Hmmm.


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