# Measuring length of the muzzle/scull?



## El Bueno Habanero (Oct 20, 2009)

Have been thinking about this for a long time. Hope someone can help me answer this question 
The FCI standard says: 'The length of the muzzle (tip of nose to stop) is equal to the distance between the stop and the occipital protuberance.' 
And AKC: 'Length of muzzle is slightly less than length of back skull measured from stop to point of occiput and the planes are level.'

Here a picture of a dogs scull and the text that defines the stop. 
'The 'stop' is an area between the muzzle and frontal bones which surround the eyes. So *the 'stop' is the indented area between the eyes rather than a single point*.'

At what points exactly do you then measure the length of the muzzle /or the length of the back skull?
E.g. muzzle: from beginning of the nose to the lowest point of the stop (the point on the picture just below the eyes?) Or do you measure all the way up the stop where the stop meets the scull? 
In other words, which point of the stop is used to measure length of the muzzle and of the scull? Because as explained the stop doesn't have a single point, but it's rather a longer area. 
I hope you can all follow me lol, I find it difficult to explain.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I've never seen equal. The stop is where the slope first starts to change. Backskull is measured from stop to occiput(little bump at top, back of skull).

Standards have been changed according to whomever is in charge of such, and what they are breeding, or want to breed. 

The Cubans, not wanting to have anything written down in a country where things like saxophones were outlawed, came up with a way to measure proportions using their fingers so they could evaluate breeding dogs and keep their consistency. They would lay three fingers on the top of the muzzle, and then want four across the back skull, for the 3:4 ratio. It makes it really quick and easy to do. Some color combinations don't allow you to easily see it.

When the parent club was discussing the first Standard to present to AKC, some very strongly protested anything so specific in these proportions. That's when the comprimise of "slightly shorter" came up. I was there. Of course, we have seen slightly shorter become half in some cases, and it does quite well in the Toy ring.

As the muzzle gets shorter, the eyes become rounder.


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## El Bueno Habanero (Oct 20, 2009)

Tom King said:


> I've never seen equal.


I don't know if they're exactly equal, didn't measure them , but I've seen enough havs here in the Netherlands with very long, horse like muzzles. Some breeders want a long muzzles (one that FCI standard calls for), others prefer a slightly shorter muzzle. What's in the standard lol. Very subjective interpretations on various things not only muzzle.

I'm sure you know this one, but I thought it is an interesting article for someone who wants to see all the differences between the various standards, compared side by side.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=QbH0II5yjh4WFxpx3WccJw&bvm=bv.44770516,d.ZWU
Opens in a pdf file.



Tom King said:


> The stop is where the slope first starts to change. Backskull is measured from stop to occiput(little bump at top, back of skull).


*The point where the stop begins to go up vertically?* If I understand it correct?
So, that would be the point where you measure? It is very low placed then. How do you measure the scall? Do you measure at the side of the head (from stop to occiput of course) or do you follow the rounding of the scull from stop all the way back to the occiput? Hope it makes sence .



Tom King said:


> Standards have been changed according to whomever is in charge of such, and what they are breeding, or want to breed.


Yep, it seems that's how it works anyway.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

El Bueno Habanero said:


> I don't know if they're exactly equal, didn't measure them , but I've seen enough havs here in the Netherlands with very long, horse like muzzles. Some breeders want a long muzzles (one that FCI standard calls for), others prefer a slightly shorter muzzle. What's in the standard lol. Very subjective interpretations on various things not only muzzle.
> 
> I'm sure you know this one, but I thought it is an interesting article for someone who wants to see all the differences between the various standards, compared side by side.
> 
> ...


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## El Bueno Habanero (Oct 20, 2009)

Ok, I get it finally, thank you very much Tom! Love to learn.
Talking about the muzzles...do you know what's the mode of inheritance? If I remember it correctly short muzzle is dominant over the long muzzle, right?


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I don't think points of conformation are as dominant as we have heard they are. You will notice that most of these "dominant" theories come from Stud owners hawking their dogs ability to "fix" something. We see that they are always some combination of the two, or one or the other. The trouble with breeding extremes is that you may get the upper jaw from one parent, and the bottom jaw from the other, or at least either/or influenced more towards one or the other.
The same with jaw width. These are when you start getting into weird tooth issues. We like a nice moderate length and width of jaw in both parents. We have always avoided the short, narrow muzzle.


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## El Bueno Habanero (Oct 20, 2009)

Tom King said:


> We like a nice moderate length and width of jaw in both parents. We have always avoided the short, narrow muzzle.


It makes sense Tom. Thank you again for your explanations.


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