# Are Havanese a vaccine sensitive breed?



## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

I keep hearing that the Havanese breed is a vaccine sensitive breed. So I asked Ricky's Vet this question a couple of weeks ago. He is a licensed Vet with about 20 years of experience and a very busy practice. He said there are individual examples in ALL dog breeds that are vaccine sensitive, sensitivity is not limited to certain breed(s). He said that in his experience he has not found the Havanese breed to be particularly vaccine sensitive more than any other breed. Yes, he said, that he has found a few cases that Havanese to be vaccine sensitive to some vaccines but he has found that to be true in ALL dog breeds. Certainly Havanese are NOT a notably vaccine sensitive breed. He did say that reactions to vaccines can be absent, mild, or severe - it will vary according to a specific dog and can occur intermittently or frequently and the onset can suddenly occur at any point in the lifespan of a dog. But speaking specifically about the Havanese breed he said, vaccine sensitivity is not something to be concerned about UNLESS your Havanese has demonstrated a sensitivity and then you should discuss that with your Vet.

I went on the Internet and researched this question. Interestingly enough, the most hits I got that Havanese are a vaccine sensitive breed are coming from this Havanese Forum! The other hits were from editorial opinion pieces in magazines or Internet blogs. I am maintaining an open mind on this question. I would like to see a peer reviewed scientific research on the question. Certainly a Vet's individual experience is important but that is not statistically and scientifically valid or significant in terms of the bigger picture of the breed as a whole.

So does anyone have a link to scientific research on Havanese vaccine sensitivity?


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

I would think small dog breeds as a whole are more vaccine sensitive because the vaccine dosage is the same for all dogs, regardless of their size. This is not so bad perhaps for the virus particles in the vaccine, however a small dog is getting a higher amount of the adjuvants in proportion to their size than a bigger dog. The adjuvants is where much of the evil lies. For example, mercury is an adjuvant in some vaccines and it is extremely toxic.









Dog Vaccine Primer 08 | Why is the Dose the Same for Small and Large Dogs?


Are you confused as to why a Chihuahua gets the same amount of vaccine for viruses as a Great Dane? You should be. And the answer is not obvious.




www.thewelldogplace.com


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

We have talked before why there never have been nor are there likely to be peer reviewed scientific studies on specific breeds for things like this. Simply because there is not the money to fund them. 

So... You need to decide for yourself. Are you going to take the word of one man's pet Havanese' vet, or the people who know the most about the breed.... the many breeders who have put their heart and soul into this breed for the last 25-30 years? I know which I would choose. Because One way is safe and does no harm. The other way has serious potential dangers. It's really up to each of you to decide for yourself. I would suggest you talk to your breeder.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> We have talked before why there never have been nor are there likely to be peer reviewed scientific studies on specific breeds for things like this. Simply because there is not the money to fund them.
> 
> So... You need to decide for yourself. Are you going to take the word of one man's pet Havanese' vet, or the people who know the most about the breed.... the many breeders who have put their heart and soul into this breed for the last 25-30 years? I know which I would choose. Because One way is safe and does no harm. The other way has serious potential dangers. It's really up to each of you to decide for yourself. I would suggest you talk to your breeder.


I think this is a great illustration of the value of a forum such as this. There are lots of folks here with extensive experience with the Havanese breed. I am going to look to them for advice on anything Havanese vs a vet who sees a handful of Havanese in his entire career. And trying to get any unbiased vaccine information from the web is likely impossible.

I would definitely heed the vaccine sensitivity warning because once your dog develops vaccinosis you are talking about possible lifelong damage and there is really no turning back and getting another chance.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

The other thing is, it is absolutely true that not EVERY Havanese id going to be vaccine sensitive. No one ever said that. But they DO seem to be more prone to it than other dogs, and it MAY be related to their small size. and it is probably more correct to say they are "chemically sensitive" than JUST vaccine sensitive. HOWEVER, to ME, it makes more sense to treat every one of my dogs as if they MIGHT be, since it does them no harm to do so. Why slam them needlessly with vaccines, or not space them out when you easily can, just because you refuse to believe they MIGHT be a chemically sensitive breed because no one has done a peer reviewed study. When YOUR dog has problems, (and I have one of those) you will wish MIGHTILY that you were as careful with him as you were with the three that came after him.

I am TOTALLY making these numbers up, but if that are 95 dogs who have no problems with vaccines and 5 who do, and I can take precautions that prevent MY dog from becoming one of the 5 who DO have a problem... I will take those precautions. Because there is absolutely NO HARM to the other 95 dogs. Sorta like why my dogs ride in crates in the car. I know that other people on this forum make choices that are less safe in that regard too. It's up to each person to make their own choices and live with the consequences.

BTW, I have never advocated NO vaccines, just careful, THOUGHTFUL, vaccination using as little as possible and EFFECTIVE and as infrequently as possible and EFFECTIVE. I don't see why there is any good reason to use more. Quite frankly, My veterinarian does the same for ALL dogs, Havanese or not. So there is another "one veterinarian" data point  ) I don't know if she would vaccinate more frequently rather than doing titers if a client insisted on it, but I suspect she doesn't attract many of that type of uneducated clientele.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> The other thing is, it is absolutely true that not EVERY Havanese id going to be vaccine sensitive. No one ever said that. But they DO seem to be more prone to it than other dogs, and it MAY be related to their small size. and it is probably more correct to say they are "chemically sensitive" than JUST vaccine sensitive. HOWEVER, to ME, it makes more sense to treat every one of my dogs as if they MIGHT be, since it does them no harm to do so. Why slam them needlessly with vaccines, or not space them out when you easily can, just because you refuse to believe they MIGHT be a chemically sensitive breed because no one has done a peer reviewed study. When YOUR dog has problems, (and I have one of those) you will wish MIGHTILY that you were as careful with him as you were with the three that came after him.
> 
> I am TOTALLY making these numbers up, but if that are 95 dogs who have no problems with vaccines and 5 who do, and I can take precautions that prevent MY dog from becoming one of the 5 who DO have a problem... I will take those precautions. Because there is absolutely NO HARM to the other 95 dogs. Sorta like why my dogs ride in crates in the car. I know that other people on this forum make choices that are less safe in that regard too. It's up to each person to make their own choices and live with the consequences.
> 
> BTW, I have never advocated NO vaccines, just careful, THOUGHTFUL, vaccination using as little as possible and EFFECTIVE and as infrequently as possible and EFFECTIVE. I don't see why there is any good reason to use more. Quite frankly, My veterinarian does the same for ALL dogs, Havanese or not. So there is another "one veterinarian" data point  ) I don't know if she would vaccinate more frequently rather than doing titers if a client insisted on it, but I suspect she doesn't attract many of that type of uneducated clientele.


One of my philosophies is if something CAN help and CANNOT hurt why not do it? Why play Russian roulette with a dog’s immune system when there is now a means (titers) to determine if a dog is already immune to a disease and thus avoid unnecessary vaccines? I personally cannot understand why anyone would not do this. I really wish I had known about titers before over vaccinating Mia. Yet other people are knowledgeable about titers and still do not take advantage of them. I just do not understand this at all.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> We have talked before why there never have been nor are there likely to be peer reviewed scientific studies on specific breeds for things like this. Simply because there is not the money to fund them.


That's what Ricky's Vet said too, but I was just doing my due diligence in asking since I thought maybe he might have missed something. So there is no scientific data to support this premise.



> So... You need to decide for yourself. Are you going to take the word of one man's pet Havanese' vet, or the people who know the most about the breed.... the many breeders who have put their heart and soul into this breed for the last 25-30 years? I know which I would choose. I would suggest you talk to your breeder.


Well, I am "going to take the word of one man's pet Havanese Vet.' He sees tens of thousands of canines over his career and can draw some conclusions based on his personal experience - as opposed to the anecdotal experience of a Havanese breeder who sees only one breed, perhaps a few to a couple of hundred Havanese in their breeding career. The Veterinarian community also thinks that maybe canine vaccine sensitivity may be genetic, but there is no money for that kind of research either. And then another question is, "could it be environmental." Who knows? The bottom line for me is that Ricky's Vet says the chances are much greater for an unvaccinated Havanese contracting a serious canine disease than the chances are of a vaccinated Havanese having a serious vaccine reaction. It's a question of what an owner considers to be the more (potentially) serious outcome. I would guess that today, more Havanese dogs die from vaccine preventable serious diseases than those that die from vaccine sensitivity.



> Because One way is safe and does no harm. The other way has serious potential dangers. It's really up to each of you to decide for yourself.


Since Ricky has shown neither mild nor serious vaccine reactivity, I am going to do the safe thing and have him vaccinated because it will prevent him from getting the more likely outcome with a potential danger of contracting a serious disease. If his reactivity should change in the future, I will reconsider my options.

Yes, we all have to choose what we think is best for our Havanese and I think everyone on this Forum does do that even though we might not always agree. I didn't ask the original question to start or renew a debate, I asked the question to determine if maybe I missed something in making decisions to maintain Ricky at the peak of his health. I thank everyone for their input.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

If there were such a study, who would pay for it? The companies that make the vaccine or the vets that profit from giving the vaccine?
One interesting thing that I found out is that my previous vet would give a 3 year Distemper/Parvo. My new vet apparently gives a 1 year. But it is the SAME shot. 
I am considering switching vets again since Shadow is due for his Distemper and Heartworm test this month. The new vet is very pro vaccine and wants to give everything, including Lepto. He also is a big fan of the combo heartworm, tick, flea pills. I am surprised by his stand on these topics since he is not a young vet at all. Not sure what to do.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

krandall said:


> BTW, I have never advocated NO vaccines, just careful, THOUGHTFUL, vaccination using as little as possible and EFFECTIVE and as infrequently as possible and EFFECTIVE. I don't see why there is any good reason to use more.


This is what I wrote. You can do a search. I have never once, here on the forum or anywhere else, advocated for anyone not appropriately vaccinating their dog. I have been a long and strong advocate against OVER vaccination and will continue to do so. You do you.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Tere said:


> If there were such a study, who would pay for it? The companies that make the vaccine or the vets that profit from giving the vaccine?
> One interesting thing that I found out is that my previous vet would give a 3 year Distemper/Parvo. My new vet apparently gives a 1 year. But it is the SAME shot.
> I am considering switching vets again since Shadow is due for his Distemper and Heartworm test this month. The new vet is very pro vaccine and wants to give everything, including Lepto. He also is a big fan of the combo heartworm, tick, flea pills. I am surprised by his stand on these topics since he is not a young vet at all. Not sure what to do.


 The American Association of Animal Hospitals changed the booster guidelines for core vaccines many years ago to be every 3 years unless titers are done. Any vet who gives them every year would not be a vet I would trust near my dog.






Vaccination recommendations for general practice


Canine vaccination recommendations for general practice.




www.aaha.org


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

DogFather said:


> That's what Ricky's Vet said too, but I was just doing my due diligence in asking since I thought maybe he might have missed something. So there is no scientific data to support this premise.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No one is talking here about not vaccinating at all. We are talking about titering to see if a dog already has immunity before revaccinating to avoid the dog developing vaccinosis or risking a reaction when the vaccine is completely unnecessary.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> No one is talking here about not vaccinating at all. We are talking about titering to see if a dog already has immunity before revaccinating to avoid the dog developing vaccinosis or risking a reaction when the vaccine is completely unnecessary.


This is a red flag that gets raised ad nauseum. I haven’t seen anyone on the forum ever mention never vaccinating. I wish I knew why this seems so hard for some people to understand, but I don’t know how to explain it any more plainly.


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

krandall said:


> This is a red flag that gets raised ad nauseum. I haven’t seen anyone on the forum ever mention never vaccinating. I wish I knew why this seems so hard for some people to understand, but I don’t know how to explain it any more plainly.


Makes total sense… I think a lot of dog owners don’t know about titers (that was me until fairly recently!), or can’t afford them, but I am so glad to have forums like this to make me a more informed pup parent. Vets can differ so much, and so many people just do whatever they say without questioning, so it’s disappointing to hear that some are still advocating for the old yearly Distemper/Parvo when that has been deemed unnecessary.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

LWalks said:


> Makes total sense… I think a lot of dog owners don’t know about titers (that was me until fairly recently!), or can’t afford them, but I am so glad to have forums like this to make me a more informed pup parent. Vets can differ so much, and so many people just do whatever they say without questioning, so it’s disappointing to hear that some are still advocating for the old yearly Distemper/Parvo when that has been deemed unnecessary.


And if people CAN’T afford to titer… I get that. Vaccinate every 3 years if you can’t afford titers. Ask your vet to use a two way vaccine (parvo and distemper ONLY) rather than a five way, if possible. Do not allow your dog to be vaccinated with more than one vaccine at a time. (ESPECIALLY RABIES AND ANYTHING ELSE!) Wait at least two weeks between vaccines. MOST vets will accommodate this without charging for an extra vet visit because they KNOW it is better for the animal. A tech can give the second vaccine. Do not give wormers, heartworm meds and or flea and tick meds at the same time as a vaccine. Space out by at least a week, preferably two. Spacing these out does two things. It allows the animal’s immune system time to recover, AND, if the animal IS going to have areaction, now you know what they reacted to, rather than trying to guess.

NONE of what I have suggested above costs anything extra. None of it is the least bit harmful to the animal. It iis just plain common sense.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

mudpuppymama said:


> No one is talking here about not vaccinating at all. We are talking about titering to see if a dog already has immunity before revaccinating to avoid the dog developing vaccinosis or risking a reaction when the vaccine is completely unnecessary.





krandall said:


> This is a red flag that gets raised ad nauseum. I haven’t seen anyone on the forum ever mention never vaccinating. I wish I knew why this seems so hard for some people to understand, but I don’t know how to explain it any more plainly.


What are we arguing about? I never said that anyone here is "talking about not vaccinating at all." I am "some people" who does understand. Ricky's Vet says he has some clients who do not vaccinate at all. And I know some neighbors where I live who refuse to vaccinate or titer - ever. 

For the record I just had Ricky titered for DHPP immunity. He was 'positive' which means he won't need a vaccination this year. The cost of the titer was $160 while the cost of the vaccination is $20. But when it comes to maintaining Ricky, cost is no object. Ricky's Vet said that in his experience immunity with titer testing can be extended for a year before a 'negative' result (which means a booster is recommended). Next year I will have to decide if I spend another $160 on a DHPP titer (which Ricky will probably fail) or just have him vaccinated for $20. So that means I spend $180 ($160+ $20) if I have him titered and he fails.

According to PetMed, there is some anecdotal evidence that "vaccinosis" is related to genetics, not over-vaccinating. And to repeat myself, Ricky's Vet said that the risk of contracting a serious disease is greater than the risk of vaccinosis whether by titers or by choice. I don't know how much more plainly I can say it.


LWalks said:


> so it’s disappointing to hear that some are still advocating for the old yearly Distemper/Parvo when that has been deemed unnecessary. (EDIT by moderator: through a titer)


Unfortunately too many canine owners don't do their "homework" about canine care and maintenance. That is why forums like HF are so helpful where we can discuss difficult issues in a respectful manner. 



mudpuppymama said:


> The American Association of Animal Hospitals changed the booster guidelines for core vaccines many years ago to be every 3 years unless titers are done. Any vet who gives them every year would not be a vet I would trust near my dog.


I had no idea that a DHPP vaccine is available in a three year dose. I will have to ask about that. But I think DHPP is not a "core" vaccine. One core vaccine Ricky does get is the Rabies vaccine which he gets every three years subject to exemptions per California law (which Ricky doesn't qualify for).


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Everyone i know who titers, and that is MANY people with MANY breeds, not just Havanese, have found exactly what I have seen will every one of mine. The Distemper and Parvo vaccination (we purposely only use the two way, NOT dhpp) has found the same thing. That our dogs still have very good immunity YEARS later. Kodi is 13, and his last DP was at 4, Pixel is 7, Panda is 6, their last DP’s were their puppy series. ALL OF THEM have had high, durable, titers annually ever since. This is exactly the same experience that most of my friends have had. I have had a HANDFUL of friends that have had to revaccinate a dog ONCE in their lives past puppyhood. Most don’t need that. (Not talking Rabies here, as that one is dictated by law)

And any vet will tell you, that we do not know that a low titer means that the dog is not protected. Because that is only part of the immune system. There are also T and B cells, which we can’t test for. Low antibodies MIGHT only mean that the dog has not been presented with the disease in his environment lately. THAT SAID, at this point, it is the only snap shot into the immune system that we currently have. So it seems prudent to use that as an indicator of immunity, when the vaccines are GENERALLY safe and effective.

And DHPP has been a 3 year shot for MANY years, and has been reccommended by the AVMA to only be administered every three years for YEARS now. I would wager that change was made by the AVMA before Ricky was born.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> And if people CAN’T afford to titer… I get that. Vaccinate every 3 years if you can’t afford titers. Ask your vet to use a two way vaccine (parvo and distemper ONLY) rather than a five way, if possible. Do not allow your dog to be vaccinated with more than one vaccine at a time. (ESPECIALLY RABIES AND ANYTHING ELSE!) Wait at least two weeks between vaccines. MOST vets will accommodate this without charging for an extra vet visit because they KNOW it is better for the animal. A tech can give the second vaccine. Do not give wormers, heartworm meds and or flea and tick meds at the same time as a vaccine. Space out by at least a week, preferably two. Spacing these out does two things. It allows the animal’s immune system time to recover, AND, if the animal IS going to have areaction, now you know what they reacted to, rather than trying to guess.
> 
> NONE of what I have suggested above costs anything extra. None of it is the least bit harmful to the animal. It iis just plain common sense.


To add to what Karen said, another way to reduce risk is to request a mercury free rabies vaccine. Thimerosal is mercury which is very toxic. I am not sure if all vets give the thimerosal free rabies vaccine by default. You may have to request it. Perhaps krandall can comment on this. She may know more.

Although the rabies titer is very expensive, the others are not that bad. By avoiding unnecessary vaccines you have a greater chance that your dog will be healthy and a healthy dog means fewer vet bills. So I would definitely take that into consideration when evaluating the cost/benefits of titers. In addition, dealing with over vaccination symptoms like allergies can be very trying for both the dog and owner. So there is more than just money to think about.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

DogFather said:


> What are we arguing about? I never said that anyone here is "talking about not vaccinating at all." I am "some people" who does understand. Ricky's Vet says he has some clients who do not vaccinate at all. And I know some neighbors where I live who refuse to vaccinate or titer - ever.
> 
> For the record I just had Ricky titered for DHPP immunity. He was 'positive' which means he won't need a vaccination this year. The cost of the titer was $160 while the cost of the vaccination is $20. But when it comes to maintaining Ricky, cost is no object. Ricky's Vet said that in his experience immunity with titer testing can be extended for a year before a 'negative' result (which means a booster is recommended). Next year I will have to decide if I spend another $160 on a DHPP titer (which Ricky will probably fail) or just have him vaccinated for $20. So that means I spend $180 ($160+ $20) if I have him titered and he fails.
> 
> ...


So you titered this year but next year might just go ahead and just vaccinate Ricky? Not sure I understand that logic when he most likely will be immune next year as well.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> To add to what Karen said, another way to reduce risk is to request a mercury free rabies vaccine. Thimerosal is mercury which is very toxic. I am not sure if all vets give the thimerosal free rabies vaccine by default. You may have to request it. Perhaps krandall can comment on this. She may know more.
> 
> Although the rabies titer is very expensive, the others are not that bad. By avoiding unnecessary vaccines you have a greater chance that your dog will be healthy and a healthy dog means fewer vet bills. So I would definitely take that into consideration when evaluating the cost/benefits of titers. In addition, dealing with over vaccination symptoms like allergies can be very trying for both the dog and owner. So there is more than just money to think about.


My vet always uses the thimerosol free vaccines. However, many don’t, and unfortunately, if yours doesn’t, the only option would be to buy a case, which I believe is 12 vials. Breeders sometimes do this as a group, so that a vet can use those vaccines on their groups of puppies, but obviously this would be a VERY expensive option for one vaccine for one or three dogs. While I would choose to avoid thimerosol if I COULD, I think that if you can get your vet to work with you in other ways, and limit vaccines in general, this would not be a MAJOR concern for me. Mercury IS very toxic. The amount of mercury in thimerosol is very small. It is sometimes used in human vaccines too, though less and less over time. There has been a hue and cry over it, but I don’t think there is CONCRETE evidence that it causes harm. It’s one of those things that it makes sense to avoid IF there are safer alternatives. I can see why vets want to use shelf stable vaccines when it is a vaccine they don’t use often. But forone they are using on every puppy who comes in, and multiple times for each, you would think they would go through their supply quickly enough that having it go stale would not be that big a problem.

Yes, I am sure titers vary in cost from place to place, but distemper/parvo titers for my dogs are $60. And I do not live in an inexpensive part of the country. So it is really not a HUGE cost as part of their annual physical. Kodi’s senior panel is the big hit, coming in at almost $500.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> So you titered this year but next year might just go ahead and just vaccinate Ricky? Not sure I understand that logic when he most likely will be immune next year as well.


He for some reason thinks his immunity will have dropped by next year, which is contrary to all evidence… unless his titer was borderline this year, I suppose. But considering how many times Ricky has been vaccinated for Distemper and Parvo, (yearly if I am reading this right?) if he is not maintaining his immunity, I would be concerned about his immune system in general, and why his titer is dropping so rapidly.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> My vet always uses the thimerosol free vaccines. However, many don’t, and unfortunately, if yours doesn’t, the only option would be to buy a case, which I believe is 12 vials. Breeders sometimes do this as a group, so that a vet can use those vaccines on their groups of puppies, but obviously this would be a VERY expensive option for one vaccine for one or three dogs. While I would choose to avoid thimerosol if I COULD, I think that if you can get your vet to work with you in other ways, and limit vaccines in general, this would not be a MAJOR concern for me. Mercury IS very toxic. The amount of mercury in thimerosol is very small. It is sometimes used in human vaccines too, though less and less over time. There has been a hue and cry over it, but I don’t think there is CONCRETE evidence that it causes harm. It’s one of those things that it makes sense to avoid IF there are safer alternatives. I can see why vets want to use shelf stable vaccines when it is a vaccine they don’t use often. But forone they are using on every puppy who comes in, and multiple times for each, you would think they would go through their supply quickly enough that having it go stale would not be that big a problem.
> 
> Yes, I am sure titers vary in cost from place to place, but distemper/parvo titers for my dogs are $60. And I do not live in an inexpensive part of the country. So it is really not a HUGE cost as part of their annual physical. Kodi’s senior panel is the big hit, coming in at almost $500.


Thanks for the clarification. I myself have had some issues with thimerosal which was used as a preservative in contact lens solutions. I eventually was no longer able to wear contact lenses. With vaccines, I think any step to make them safer is worth taking. However, I agree that the best approach is to just minimize them as much as possible. I knew there was a PureVax rabies for cats. I didn’t know about dogs. Cats are super sensitive to the rabies vaccine which is why they give it in the leg so that the leg can be amputated In case they develop a tumor at the injection site. This did happen to my friend’s cat.

I think anyone that can afford to pay $3000 for a dog can afford to do titers. It is a very small price to pay. Just skipping a couple professional grooming sessions per year and doing it yourself could easily pay for titers.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

mudpuppymama said:


> So you titered this year but next year might just go ahead and just vaccinate Ricky? Not sure I understand that logic when he most likely will be immune next year as well.


I haven't made up my mind yet what I will do next year. His Vet said that the DHPP is certainly not a lifetime vaccine and that if I want to protect Ricky, I will have to vaccinate him for DHPP at some time in the future. His Vet said that SOMETIMES the immunity can be extended for as much as a year (which the titer showed to be true in Ricky's case for this year) The current canine medical literature backs up his premise. However, he said it is unlikely to be true next year and it will cost me $160 for another titer next year for DHPP if I want to find out. My logic is: I am trying to minimize (but not necessarily eliminate) the number of vaccinations Ricky receives and I can tell you for certain that I am not going to leave Ricky unprotected from DHPP, or for that matter any other diseases, regardless of what it might cost me. So, I may go ahead and have him titered next year, although it may be a waste of money, as my $160 contribution to canine medical research on this ONE data point.


krandall said:


> My vet always uses the thimerosol free vaccines.


Ricky's Vet will not use Thermosol !!! He said that is like playing Russian Roulette with your dog's life !!! He told me I should go to some other Vet if I insist on using it. (yes I am going to shout here) I WILL NEVER KNOWINGLY AND INTENTIONALLY PUT RICKY'S LIFE IN DANGER.



> Yes, I am sure titers vary in cost from place to place, but distemper/parvo titers for my dogs are $60. And I do not live in an inexpensive part of the country. So it is really not a HUGE cost as part of their annual physical. Kodi’s senior panel is the big hit, coming in at almost $500.


I chose to live in an urbanized but semi-rural area, much like where you live Karen. This is a good news/bad news situation. There is a total of two small animal Vets in my immediate area. The nearest major metropolitan area with extensive veterinarian services is 75 miles away over SoCal's horrendous freeway system, (Karen your local freeways at peak traffic time look like a Sunday morning drive on the SoCal freeway system 2 miles from Ricky's casa). The good news is, basic vet services tend to much less expensive here locally. The bad news is some vet extraordinary services are much more expensive due to mail service, distance from labs and specialists, extra handling, etc.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

DogFather said:


> I haven't made up my mind yet what I will do next year. His Vet said that the DHPP is certainly not a lifetime vaccine and that if I want to protect Ricky, I will have to vaccinate him for DHPP at some time in the future. His Vet said that SOMETIMES the immunity can be extended for as much as a year (which the titer showed to be true in Ricky's case for this year) The current canine medical literature backs up his premise. However, he said it is unlikely to be true next year and it will cost me $160 for another titer next year for DHPP if I want to find out. My logic is: I am trying to minimize (but not necessarily eliminate) the number of vaccinations Ricky receives and I can tell you for certain that I am not going to leave Ricky unprotected from DHPP, or for that matter any other diseases, regardless of what it might cost me. So, I may go ahead and have him titered next year, although it may be a waste of money, as my $160 contribution to canine medical research on this ONE data point.
> 
> Ricky's Vet will not use Thermosol !!! He said that is like playing Russian Roulette with your dog's life !!! He told me I should go to some other Vet if I insist on using it. (yes I am going to shout here) I WILL NEVER KNOWINGLY AND INTENTIONALLY PUT RICKY'S LIFE IN DANGER.
> 
> Yes, I am sure titers vary in cost from place to place, but distemper/parvo titers for my dogs are $60. And I do not live in an inexpensive part of the country. So it is really not a HUGE cost as part of their annual physical. Kodi’s senior panel is the big hit, coming in at almost $500.





> I chose to live in an urbanized but semi-rural area, much like where you live Karen. This is a good news/bad news situation. There is a total of two small animal Vets in my immediate area. The nearest major metropolitan area with extensive veterinarian services is 75 miles away over SoCal's horrendous freeway system, (Karen your local freeways at peak traffic time look like a Sunday morning drive on the SoCal freeway system 2 miles from Ricky's casa). The good news is, basic vet services tend to much less expensive here locally. The bad news is some vet extraordinary services are much more expensive due to mail service, distance from labs and specialists, extra handling, etc.


The thing about titers is that it takes the guesswork out of it. So we can just forget all this vet trust on what he THINKS may be his immune status and actually do a titer to find out what it really is. Note that allergies are a sign that a dog has an immune system issue and is one of the main signs that a dog has been over vaccinated. If Ricky had been getting yearly vaccines, this could be what caused his allergies. [EDIT for 'snarkiness']


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> He for some reason thinks his immunity will have dropped by next year, which is contrary to all evidence… unless his titer was borderline this year, I suppose. But considering how many times Ricky has been vaccinated for Distemper and Parvo, (yearly if I am reading this right?) if he is not maintaining his immunity, I would be concerned about his immune system in general, and why his titer is dropping so rapidly.


Your reasoning is contrary to canine medical science and I will not argue it further, I will leave that to the canine medical professionals of which I am not one.

Ricky gets annual vaccinations (or in this case a DHPP titer this year) for the same reason I get an annual flu shot or an annual Covid booster. I am not required to get my annual vaccinations, but if I get the flu or even a mild case of Covid my cardiologist says there is a good chance it will kill me. At this time, Flu and Covid vaccinations and canine DHPP vaccinations do not provide lifetime immunity.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Thanks for the clarification. I myself have had some issues with thimerosal which was used as a preservative in contact lens solutions. I eventually was no longer able to wear contact lenses. With vaccines, I think any step to make them safer is worth taking. However, I agree that the best approach is to just minimize them as much as possible. I knew there was a PureVax rabies for cats. I didn’t know about dogs. Cats are super sensitive to the rabies vaccine which is why they give it in the leg so that the leg can be amputated In case they develop a tumor at the injection site. This did happen to my friend’s cat.
> 
> I think anyone that can afford to pay $3000 for a dog can afford to do titers. It is a very small price to pay. Just skipping a couple professional grooming sessions per year and doing it yourself could easily pay for titers.


 Most vets give it to dogs in the leg for the same reason. It is MUCH less likely to cause a problem in dogs than in cats, but it does occur, according to my vet, so she and most vets she knows still take tge easy precaution of giving it in the leg… just in case.

And yes, I HAVE heard of the occasional bad reaction to thimerosal preservative in contact lens solution. But of course any creature can have a reaction to anything, and preservatives in particular. When Panda had the terrible reaction /eye infection after her spay, the FIRST thing my vet did was make sure there was no mix up, and that the ointment used on her was thimerosal free. It was. Yet she still reacted very badly to it. Who knows why? But it is in her record NEVER to use that brand again! LOL!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

DogFather said:


> Your reasoning is contrary to canine medical science and I will not argue it further, I will leave that to the canine medical professionals of which I am not one.
> 
> Ricky gets annual vaccinations (or in this case a DHPP titer this year) for the same reason I get an annual flu shot or an annual Covid booster. I am not required to get my annual vaccinations, but if I get the flu or even a mild case of Covid my cardiologist says there is a good chance it will kill me. At this time, Flu and Covid vaccinations and canine DHPP vaccinations do not provide lifetime immunity.


Do you also get an annual Shingles vaccine? Pneumonia vaccine, Measles vaccine, Small Pox vaccine, Tetanus vaccine, Yellow Fever vaccine… I could go on. This is interesting. If so, you are the only person I’ve ever heard who gets these annually. Different vaccines have different amounts of durability.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

DogFather said:


> Your reasoning is contrary to canine medical science and I will not argue it further, I will leave that to the canine medical professionals of which I am not one.
> 
> Ricky gets annual vaccinations (or in this case a DHPP titer this year) for the same reason I get an annual flu shot or an annual Covid booster. I am not required to get my annual vaccinations, but if I get the flu or even a mild case of Covid my cardiologist says there is a good chance it will kill me. At this time, Flu and Covid vaccinations and canine DHPP vaccinations do not provide lifetime immunity.


Titers are NOT contrary to medical science. A vet who gives annual vaccines is contrary to medical science.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

Today, I called 12 vets in my area to find one that does 3 year DHPP and found not one will do 3 years. The only one that does a 3 year is my former vet. I am reluctant to go back to him for several reasons.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Tere said:


> Today, I called 12 vets in my area to find one that does 3 year DHPP and found not one will do 3 years. The only one that does a 3 year is my former vet. I am reluctant to go back to him for several reasons.


I am wondering if there is only one type of DHHP vaccine but that it can be given only every 3 years for your dog to maintain immunity. For example, that is how the rabies vaccines are. There is no difference between the one year and three year rabies vaccines. They are the same vaccine. The only difference is the amount of time your dog is registered. Perhaps Karen can comment on this.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> I am wondering if there is only one type of DHHP vaccine but that it can be given only every 3 years for your dog to maintain immunity. For example, that is how the rabies vaccines are. There is no difference between the one year and three year rabies vaccines. They are the same vaccine. The only difference is the amount of time your dog is registered. Perhaps Karen can comment on this.


Sorry, I do not know, though I can ask one of my vet friends for you.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Here is a very good article MEANT FOR VETS on why some vets are still holding out for annual DHPP and why it is not necessary:









Find Out Why Once Every Three Years is the Trend in Vaccinations


Originally published in the March 2015 issue of Veterinary Practice News After speaking with hundreds of practicing veterinarians over the past two years about vaccines and vaccination protocols, Richard Ford, DVM, has found that practitioners are slowly trending away from all vaccines to all...




www.veterinarypracticenews.com





I did also find that if vets are using the FIVE WAY (DHPPL) which includes Lepto, that, of course DOES need to be administered annually, NOT because any of the OTHER components need boosting, but because we KNOW that Lepto is a weak, only semi-effective vaccine and if you are going to use it at all, it must be administered annually. But why ANYONE would choose to use a five way, and not split the Lepto out is beyond me! 🤷‍♀️ What an unnecessary assault on the immune system. No vets I know use it. Maybe in a shelter system, where you just need to bring stray dogs up to date fast, and you have no idea where they are going, or whether they will be properly cared for after that...

ETA... I ONLY vaccinate my dogs with Two-way, (DP), but I know that option is not available to everyone, and I do not feel that DHPP is a HUGE gamble if used no more often than every three years. (titers are better still) It is is a vaccine with a very long safety track record. That is not as true with DHPPL according to the several vets I've discussed it with. PLUS, if you insist on vaccinating for Lepto, AT LEAST separate it from other vaccines so you can watch for a reaction, and if there is one, you know WHICH vaccine CAUSED the reaction. When you give many vaccines at the same time, (besides the assault on the immune system) you have no idea which component caused the problem if you have a reaction.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> Here is a very good article MEANT FOR VETS on why some vets are still holding out for annual DHPP and why it is not necessary:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks krandall…great article. It is a shame many of us cannot have a rational discussion about this with our own vet.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Thanks krandall…great article. It is a shame many of us cannot have a rational discussion about this with our own vet.



I am SO happy that even with my old vet, who was "just a regular local vet", I NEVER had this kind of a problem. I could ALWAYS have this kind of discussion. He would give me his opinion on things, tell me the pros and cons on any decision. But in the end, the dog was my dog and the decision was ALWAYS mine to make and he ALWAYS respected my informed decision. And of course the vet I use now is completely in step with my thinking, so these issues don't even come up.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> I am SO happy that even with my old vet, who was "just a regular local vet", I NEVER had this kind of a problem. I could ALWAYS have this kind of discussion. He would give me his opinion on things, tell me the pros and cons on any decision. But in the end, the dog was my dog and the decision was ALWAYS mine to make and he ALWAYS respected my informed decision. And of course the vet I use now is completely in step with my thinking, so these issues don't even come up.


I blindly trusted my first vet who vaccinated yearly. However, since then I have become more knowledgeable and make my own decisions regarding vaccines. All vets I have had respect my opinions. Now if I hadn’t “taken charge” perhaps these vets may have gone ahead and vaccinated annually. We need to become advocates of our own dog’s health as well as our own IMO. Here we are talking about optional vaccines anyway so no legal discussions to get in the way of doing what a person feels is right for their dog.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> I blindly trusted my first vet who vaccinated yearly. However, since then I have become more knowledgeable and make my own decisions regarding vaccines. All vets I have had respect my opinions. Now if I hadn’t “taken charge” perhaps these vets may have gone ahead and vaccinated annually. We need to become advocates of our own dog’s health as well as our own IMO. Here we are talking about optional vaccines anyway so no legal discussions to get in the way of doing what a person feels is right for their dog.


Exactly. That same first vet who later listened to me was ALSO the one who over-vaccinated Kodi when I knew less. But as I learned more, questioned him, explained my thinking and we talked things through, he was glad to do things my way. He never even pushed back. It was also 13 years ago. I think it was at a time when the VETS were learning too. Now, honestly, I don't think these vets who are vaccinating yearly have much of an excuse.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> Exactly. That same first vet who later listened to me was ALSO the one who over-vaccinated Kodi when I knew less. But as I learned more, questioned him, explained my thinking and we talked things through, he was glad to do things my way. He never even pushed back. It was also 13 years ago. I think it was at a time when the VETS were learning too. No, honestly, I don't think these vets who are vaccinating yearly have much of an excuse.


Agreed. Thirteen years ago…I can see how some vets may have been resistant to change. However, there is no excuse in 2022. It may be because they fear people will only go to the vet every 3 years. Whatever the excuse is…not one I would accept In light of all the knowledge that has come out over the past 13 years and the new guidelines of the AAHA, I don’t get it.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Tere, there is an AAHA accredited animal hospital locator. They will certainly follow the AAHA guidelines. There may be one in your area.



https://www.aaha.org/your-pet/hospital-locator/


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Tere, there is an AAHA accredited animal hospital locator. They will certainly follow the AAHA guidelines. There may be one in your area.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.aaha.org/your-pet/hospital-locator/



Interestingly, I just tried it for giggles, (knowing that my own practice is WAY outside the "mile limit" I put in. $ different vet hospitals came up within 5 miles of me, all of which have fairly good reputations. NONE of which have sold out to "big corporate". The one I used to use here in town is now owned by Banfield, and they are not listed. Something to keep in mind...


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> Interestingly, I just tried it for giggles, (knowing that my own practice is WAY outside the "mile limit" I put in. $ different vet hospitals came up within 5 miles of me, all of which have fairly good reputations. NONE of which have sold out to "big corporate". The one I used to use here in town is now owned by Banfield, and they are not listed. Something to keep in mind...


I noticed you can change the mile limit if you want to expand it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> I noticed you can change the mile limit if you want to expand it.


Yes, I just didn't bother, because I was just playing with it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I just went back and poked around a bit on their website, reading their PDF on vaccines. I was quite impressed on the thoroughness. It INCLUDES that core vaccines on a 3 year rotation is advised OR that titers are an acceptable alternative! (Obviously with the exception of Rabies, which is dictated by local law)

Here it is, and has NOTHING to do with Jean Dodds, for those who don't care for her advice  :



https://www.aaha.org/globalassets/02-guidelines/canine-vaccination/vaccination_recommendation_for_general_practice_table.pdf


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> I just went back and poked around a bit on their website, reading their PDF on vaccines. I was quite impressed on the thoroughness. It INCLUDES that core vaccines on a 3 year rotation is advised OR that titers are an acceptable alternative! (Obviously with the exception of Rabies, which is dictated by local law)
> 
> Here it is, and has NOTHING to do with Jean Dodds, for those who don't care for her advice  :
> 
> ...


So hopefully if someone finds an AAHA accredited vet they do not have to explain the preferred protocol to them!!! Now if they do…yikes…let’s just hope they don’t and that the accredited vet follows the guidelines.


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## Cassandra (Dec 29, 2015)

I appreciate dogfather having opened this discussion, although discussions around vaccines in general do tend to get more intense. My vet, at a highly regarded animal hospital with a variety of specialists with advanced specialties (i.e. not your average clinic) has also said that Havanese are not more vaccine sensitive than other small dogs. I think the size is a factor here, which makes sense. However, they were very willing to accommodate my request that we space vaccines and my declining the lepo vaccine, which although it does exist in our community, she does not drink water or go to dog parks etc. so my personal assessment of risk factors on that particular vaccine Is to skip it. We have had outbreaks of kennel cough in my community, to the extent people were posting warnings at one dog park and on our neighborhood listserv. Groomers around us required it so we get it, although I realize that this vaccine may be less effective. My desire to space vaccines even though it means multiple trips for me (and additional cost for a visit) comes from learning years ago that the practice of giving multiple vaccines to children at the same time comes from concerns that some families would be less likely to return for all of their shots and that most pediatricians would happily space them as well! Anyway, people need to understand the risks on both sides of this issue, as dogfather has pointed out, and most vets will accommodate those concerns.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

I just wanted to add. Although this thread is talking about vaccine sensitivity, I think most of the content is related to OVER vaccination. To me, vaccine sensitivity and over vaccination are not quite the same. Vaccine sensitivity relates to the potential for a single vaccine to cause issues, whereas over vaccination relates to the potential problems caused by continuing to vaccinate a dog who is already immune to a disease. IMO ALL breeds are susceptible to over vaccination and Havanese are no different.

I am editing this to add that OVER vaccination also includes overloading the immune system by giving multiple vaccines at the same time vs. spacing them out.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> I just wanted to add. Although this thread is talking about vaccine sensitivity, I think most of the content is related to OVER vaccination. To me, vaccine sensitivity and over vaccination are not quite the same. Vaccine sensitivity relates to the potential for a single vaccine to cause issues, whereas over vaccination relates to the potential problems caused by continuing to vaccinate a dog who is already immune to a disease. IMO ALL breeds are susceptible to over vaccination and Havanese are no different.


Agreed. I only have one dog who has shown that he has a SPECIFIC and SEVERE vaccine sensitivity, and that is Kodi, who my vet now completely refuses to vaccinate, because it made him so sick. (we do titer him instead)

With my OTHER dogs, I am careful not to OVER vaccinate them to prevent the POSSIBILITY of a host of POTENTIAL problems. I wouldn't even consider not vaccinating them at all. I want them to be protected against diseases that are a real threat to them. But I am careful about HOW they are vaccinated. That's all!


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## Cassandra (Dec 29, 2015)

I think the distinction between over vaccination and vaccination sensitivity is useful. Also, I was looking at the AAHA sites which have been linked to in this discussion and found this very interesting footnote that underscores the small size and the spacing vaccination issue that I raised in my previous post. It said, “NOTE: Administration of multiple doses of parenteral vaccine at the same appointment, particularly among small breed dogs (≤10 kg), may increase the risk of an acute-onset adverse reaction. Alternative vaccination schedules may be indicated, e.g., delaying administration of a noncore vaccine by 2 wk following administration of core vaccines.” So the caution is based on size, not breed, and the practice of multiple doses at one visit for small dogs...


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Cassandra said:


> I think the distinction between over vaccination and vaccination sensitivity is useful. Also, I was looking at the AAHA sites which have been linked to in this discussion and found this very interesting footnote that underscores the small size and the spacing vaccination issue that I raised in my previous post. It said, “NOTE: Administration of multiple doses of parenteral vaccine at the same appointment, particularly among small breed dogs (≤10 kg), may increase the risk of an acute-onset adverse reaction. Alternative vaccination schedules may be indicated, e.g., delaying administration of a noncore vaccine by 2 wk following administration of core vaccines.” So the caution is based on size, not breed, and the practice of multiple doses at one visit for small dogs...


Excellent point Cassandra! My definition of over vaccination should have included overloading the immune system by not properly spacing out vaccines!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Cassandra said:


> So the caution is based on size, not breed, and the practice of multiple doses at one visit for small dogs...


Yes, certainly in this PDF, which is not addressing ANY specific breeds. There are a number of breeds that are known to be particularly likely to have adverse reactions to various chemicals. Havanese are not the only ones, and vaccines are not the only things that can cause bad reactions. It's also not only small dogs. The entire group of herding breeds has a specific sensitivity to a certain type of heart worm medications. (can't remember what, off-hand). I believe Weimaraners are also vaccine sensitive, and they are certainly NOT small, though I think you are right that most small dogs are more likely to be vaccine and chemically sensitive, just because of their size. You have to know your breed, in case your vet doesn't.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> Yes, certainly in this PDF, which is not addressing ANY specific breeds. There are a number of breeds that are known to be particularly likely to have adverse reactions to various chemicals. Havanese are not the only ones, and vaccines are not the only things that can cause bad reactions. It's also not only small dogs. The entire group of herding breeds has a specific sensitivity to a certain type of heart worm medications. (can't remember what, off-hand). I believe Weimaraners are also vaccine sensitive, and they are certainly NOT small, though I think you are right that most small dogs are more likely to be vaccine and chemically sensitive, just because of their size. You have to know your breed, in case your vet doesn't.


I think you are referring to the MDR1 mutation in herding dogs which can make them super susceptible to certain drugs. They can actually test dogs for this mutation now which would be great to know.









Multidrug Resistance Mutation (MDR1) | VCA Animal Hospital


Many herding breeds (most commonly Collies and Australian Shepherds) have a mutation at the MDR1 gene that makes them more sensitive to the negative effects of certain medications. These drugs include several antiparasitic agents (when given at high doses), the antidiarrheal agent loperamide...




vcahospitals.com





The drug ivermectin which is in some heartworm drugs is supposedly ok in low doses per this article, however I know someone in another group who had a German Shepherd who she felt was permanently damaged by the ivermectin in heartworm drugs.


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## Cassandra (Dec 29, 2015)

Earlier in this thread, there was a discussion of whether there had been any scientific research and then a discussion of how difficult it would be to do a gold standard, double blind peer review study, which is definitely true. But interestingly, when I just did a google search, it turned up a number of pet insurance websites that had pages devoted to various pet related health including adverse vaccine reactions. Some had lists of dogs they felt were more likely to have adverse reactions, although Havanese did not turn up on any sites I saw, but that very well would be reflective of fact that Havanese numbers are still low in dog populations. This is definitely not a scientific study, but pet insurance companies are definitely likely to be keeping track of what breeds and other factors are turning up to have higher numbers of cases. I copied below the discussion on site had which I thought was useful in understanding factors that might increase risks. I found the reference to third or fourth vaccine being higher risk particularly interesting. The text follows below:


“The risks for adverse vaccine reactions go up based on a few known factors:


Less a dog weighs
More vaccines given at once
Kind of vaccines given, with rabies and Borrelia (Lyme disease) posing the highest number of adverse events
Number of booster vaccines given over a pet’s life (Some dogs have no trouble until the third or fourth injection of the same vaccine.)
Discuss your pet’s vaccine needs and timing with your veterinarian, including the options to:


Follow modern vaccine booster protocols rather than giving every vaccine every year
Use titer testing (blood tests looking for antibodies) to determine a pet’s immunity to a specific disease
Give only one vaccine at a time
Skip certain vaccines based on your pet’s medical history and age”


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> I think you are referring to the MDR1 mutation in herding dogs which can make them super susceptible to certain drugs. They can actually test dogs for this mutation now which would be great to know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, that's the one.



mudpuppymama said:


> The drug ivermectin which is in some heartworm drugs is supposedly ok in low doses per this article, however I know someone in another group who had a German Shepherd who she felt was permanently damaged by the ivermectin in heartworm drugs.


Yes, I know of Border Collies who have died after eating sheep droppings after they were wormed with Ivermectin. If I had a dog with herding genes, I would do the genetic testing, and if they had the gene, I would steer COMPLETELY clear of that drug. We have SO many other choices!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Cassandra said:


> Earlier in this thread, there was a discussion of whether there had been any scientific research and then a discussion of how difficult it would be to do a gold standard, double blind peer review study, which is definitely true. But interestingly, when I just did a google search, it turned up a number of pet insurance websites that had pages devoted to various pet related health including adverse vaccine reactions. Some had lists of dogs they felt were more likely to have adverse reactions, although Havanese did not turn up on any sites I saw, but that very well would be reflective of fact that Havanese numbers are still low in dog populations. This is definitely not a scientific study, but pet insurance companies are definitely likely to be keeping track of what breeds and other factors are turning up to have higher numbers of cases. I copied below the discussion on site had which I thought was useful in understanding factors that might increase risks. I found the reference to third or fourth vaccine being higher risk particularly interesting. The text follows below:
> 
> 
> “The risks for adverse vaccine reactions go up based on a few known factors:
> ...


Yes!!! ALL of the above is RIGHT on target!!! Thanks for digging this up!!!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Cassandra said:


> Earlier in this thread, there was a discussion of whether there had been any scientific research and then a discussion of how difficult it would be to do a gold standard, double blind peer review study, which is definitely true. But interestingly, when I just did a google search, it turned up a number of pet insurance websites that had pages devoted to various pet related health including adverse vaccine reactions. Some had lists of dogs they felt were more likely to have adverse reactions, although Havanese did not turn up on any sites I saw, but that very well would be reflective of fact that Havanese numbers are still low in dog populations. This is definitely not a scientific study, but pet insurance companies are definitely likely to be keeping track of what breeds and other factors are turning up to have higher numbers of cases. I copied below the discussion on site had which I thought was useful in understanding factors that might increase risks. I found the reference to third or fourth vaccine being higher risk particularly interesting. The text follows below:
> 
> 
> “The risks for adverse vaccine reactions go up based on a few known factors:
> ...


Wow great information Cassandra. Thank you for providing this. It is great to hear these kind of things from multiple and respected organizations to help spread the word. I guess Jean Dodds and Ron Schultz have talked about this for years but seems many have turned a deaf ear to them.


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## Cassandra (Dec 29, 2015)

mudpuppymama said:


> guess Jean Dodds and Ron Schultz have talked about this for years but seems many have turned a deaf ear to them.


Yes, I thought it was very helpful to see these things on very mainstream kinds of sites. As noted before, there has been some controversy around Dr. Dodds (related to other matters generally) so seeing some of her common sense views validated was good.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

I did find a vet today that does a 3 year distemper. We are going on Monday. Fingers crossed that I like them. They show the accreditation on their website but did not come up on my search. I only searched for 12 miles since 12 miles here can take up to an hour in the car(with my little puker). The distances seemed a little wonky though but they must be as the crow flies not actual mileage since I live on the "other" side of a huge lake that adds 7 miles to most outings.
I have a few requirements for my vets and I hope they are a good fit! Some places here are still doing curbside. Big NO.
I also dislike when they examine the dog in another room and won't let you watch. I need someone who speaks English clearly.
Fingers(and paws) crossed! Thanks for posting the link for the search. It was a good find!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Tere said:


> I did find a vet today that does a 3 year distemper. We are going on Monday. Fingers crossed that I like them. They show the accreditation on their website but did not come up on my search. I only searched for 12 miles since 12 miles here can take up to an hour in the car(with my little puker). The distances seemed a little wonky though but they must be as the crow flies not actual mileage since I live on the "other" side of a huge lake that adds 7 miles to most outings.
> I have a few requirements for my vets and I hope they are a good fit! Some places here are still doing curbside. Big NO.
> I also dislike when they examine the dog in another room and won't let you watch. I need someone who speaks English clearly.
> Fingers(and paws) crossed! Thanks for posting the link for the search. It was a good find!


Awesome!!! My fingers are crossed for you!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tere said:


> I did find a vet today that does a 3 year distemper. We are going on Monday. Fingers crossed that I like them. They show the accreditation on their website but did not come up on my search. I only searched for 12 miles since 12 miles here can take up to an hour in the car(with my little puker). The distances seemed a little wonky though but they must be as the crow flies not actual mileage since I live on the "other" side of a huge lake that adds 7 miles to most outings.
> I have a few requirements for my vets and I hope they are a good fit! Some places here are still doing curbside. Big NO.
> I also dislike when they examine the dog in another room and won't let you watch. I need someone who speaks English clearly.
> Fingers(and paws) crossed! Thanks for posting the link for the search. It was a good find!


I have a lot of these same requirement. (Never thought of the English issue, since that isn’t ever a problem here) And I DO have to travel a long way for it. But it is absolutely worth it, IMO!


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

Oh, I have more things that I look for in a vet! Three vets that are closest to me speak with strong accents. One of them has been my vet for most of the last 20 years and he can be hard to understand. 
I would not mind travelling as much if my dog wouldn't be throwing up after the first 10 minutes of driving which only gets us about 2-3 miles. We arrive at our destination and I am a nervous wreck. Then I have to clean his crate up in a parking lot and clean him. So distance is important although he's going to be puking regardless but the less time I spend in the car with him, the better!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Tere said:


> Oh, I have more things that I look for in a vet! Three vets that are closest to me speak with strong accents. One of them has been my vet for most of the last 20 years and he can be hard to understand.
> I would not mind travelling as much if my dog wouldn't be throwing up after the first 10 minutes of driving which only gets us about 2-3 miles. We arrive at our destination and I am a nervous wreck. Then I have to clean his crate up in a parking lot and clean him. So distance is important although he's going to be puking regardless but the less time I spend in the car with him, the better!


I really feel for you. Completely understand the puking aspects. Mia has gotten better as she has gotten older but will never be a great car rider. Hang in there.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

DogFather said:


> What are we arguing about? I never said that anyone here is "talking about not vaccinating at all." I am "some people" who does understand. Ricky's Vet says he has some clients who do not vaccinate at all. And I know some neighbors where I live who refuse to vaccinate or titer - ever.
> 
> For the record I just had Ricky titered for DHPP immunity. He was 'positive' which means he won't need a vaccination this year. The cost of the titer was $160 while the cost of the vaccination is $20. But when it comes to maintaining Ricky, cost is no object. Ricky's Vet said that in his experience immunity with titer testing can be extended for a year before a 'negative' result (which means a booster is recommended). Next year I will have to decide if I spend another $160 on a DHPP titer (which Ricky will probably fail) or just have him vaccinated for $20. So that means I spend $180 ($160+ $20) if I have him titered and he fails....


Just a question for the group -- does anyone here get a titer for the "H" (hepatitis) or "P" (parainfluenza) in the DHPP? We did Perry's titer last week - but the vet said it's only for distemper and parvo, that there aren't titers for the rest (or for Lepto which is part of the DHLPP). I think ours was around $230 for the two. 

Perry has had DHLPP vaccines annually (and an extra one accidentally!) between 8 months and 4 1/2 years old because they were required when we were living in Uganda. Since it's not a required vaccine in the US, we didn't do it last October when he was due and just did the titer (because we were doing his heartworm/ TBD bloodwork so did the titers at the same time). We're waiting for his results - they had to be sent out to the lab so will get them back next week.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> Here is a very good article MEANT FOR VETS on why some vets are still holding out for annual DHPP and why it is not necessary:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, one reason someone does DHLPP is because they live somewhere outside the US where it's required . I know, joking a little because there are very few people in my situation where it was required while we were in Uganda. Why do the DHLPP and not split them apart - because in Uganda it wasn't available (and never knew it was even possible to ask my vet here on the few times he was done in the US). I'd say the only reason people would do it here is because, like me, they didn't even know it was possible to split them apart.

Luckily for us Perry's always been fine, and now that we're not living in Uganda we can titer for Distemper and Parvo and see if we can skip them as long as possible (until we move somewhere where they might be required again).


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Tere said:


> Today, I called 12 vets in my area to find one that does 3 year DHPP and found not one will do 3 years. The only one that does a 3 year is my former vet. I am reluctant to go back to him for several reasons.


I guess it depends on your relationship with the vet. Perry's regular vet likes to do the annual - but she's fine when I say "no, not right now" to the DH(L)PP. So while she prefers to do annual, she's not going to kick me out of her practice if I decide not to do it. So, I'd ask the vets what they do if you choose not to vaccine annually (since it's not usually a required vaccine here in the US).


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> Just a question for the group -- does anyone here get a titer for the "H" (hepatitis) or "P" (parainfluenza) in the DHPP? We did Perry's titer last week - but the vet said it's only for distemper and parvo, that there aren't titers for the rest (or for Lepto which is part of the DHLPP). I think ours was around $230 for the two.
> 
> Perry has had DHLPP vaccines annually (and an extra one accidentally!) between 8 months and 4 1/2 years old because they were required when we were living in Uganda. Since it's not a required vaccine in the US, we didn't do it last October when he was due and just did the titer (because we were doing his heartworm/ TBD bloodwork so did the titers at the same time). We're waiting for his results - they had to be sent out to the lab so will get them back next week.


NO. Neither my vet nor I consider the adenovirus (which is what "hepatitis" is caused by) or parainfluenza to be much of a risk in adult dogs in my situation. Both diseases are are ae contracted from fecese urine or saliva from an infected dog. I can see, when you were living/traveling in a developing country with Perry, that this was a vaccine that you'd want to have on board particularly with a lot of stray dogs around. I do not let my dogs have contact with unknown dogs, so the risk is minimal for them. Your situation with Perry overseas is WAY different with way different risks than my "pampered pups" I think!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> Well, one reason someone does DHLPP is because they live somewhere outside the US where it's required . I know, joking a little because there are very few people in my situation where it was required while we were in Uganda. Why do the DHLPP and not split them apart - because in Uganda it wasn't available (and never knew it was even possible to ask my vet here on the few times he was done in the US). I'd say the only reason people would do it here is because, like me, they didn't even know it was possible to split them apart.
> 
> Luckily for us Perry's always been fine, and now that we're not living in Uganda we can titer for Distemper and Parvo and see if we can skip them as long as possible (until we move somewhere where they might be required again).



Oh, absolutely!!! I would STILL want to use DHPP and do the Lyme separately, if you HAVE to do Lyme too, and you are in the US where you CAN do that... Any vet who says they can't here in the US is not a vet I'd want to work with. Do they have Lyme in Uganda? 

I'd have to ask around and see if anyone knows what the life expectancy of the adenovirus and parainfluenza components are, but I would THINK, because AVMA is now recommending that these vaccines be given every three years, that they are pretty confident that they are protecting the dogs for at least that long. Not Lyme though. We KNOW that one does not hold up.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

Melissa Brill said:


> I guess it depends on your relationship with the vet. Perry's regular vet likes to do the annual - but she's fine when I say "no, not right now" to the DH(L)PP. So while she prefers to do annual, she's not going to kick me out of her practice if I decide not to do it. So, I'd ask the vets what they do if you choose not to vaccine annually (since it's not usually a required vaccine here in the US).


The thing is that Shadow needs to have his DHPP if he is boarded. Depending on where he is boarded, there can be several things he has to have. Some require Lepto, influenza, bordetella 2X a year, flea and tick meds in addition to a current DHPP and Rabies.
I am hoping to see my family in Canada when I think it might be safe to fly and there could also be an unexpected emergency that he would need to be boarded for. He's never been boarded in the 4 plus years I've had him and I am dreading it. Having someone pop into the house a couple times a day would not work. He would not be happy with that. He would be much better off being with other dogs.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> Oh, absolutely!!! I would STILL want to use DHPP and do the Lyme separately, if you HAVE to do Lyme too, and you are in the US where you CAN do that... Any vet who says they can't here in the US is not a vet I'd want to work with. Do they have Lyme in Uganda?
> 
> I'd have to ask around and see if anyone knows what the life expectancy of the adenovirus and parainfluenza components are, but I would THINK, because AVMA is now recommending that these vaccines be given every three years, that they are pretty confident that they are protecting the dogs for at least that long. Not Lyme though. We KNOW that one does not hold up.


The "L" in DHLPP is Lepto - not lyme ... and while I never really heard of it being a problem there, I think the issue was more wanting dogs being imported there not to bring it with them (any part of the DHLPP), my suspicion anyway, not sure why it was a required vaccine. If I had known you could give the Lepto separate from the DHPP I might have checked it out - I wonder if they would have accepted the logic that you'd given all of the vaccines just not the "DHLPP" as was required. I know, it makes sense, but the people who have to enforce the rules don't always know the substance of what they're enforcing, so I could see a scenario where you had DHPP and Lepto done separately and being told that wasn't right that you had to get DHLPP (even if the substance was the same). If we ever move back to Uganda or anywhere else it's required I would probably check into that.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> NO. Neither my vet nor I consider the adenovirus (which is what "hepatitis" is caused by) or parainfluenza to be much of a risk in adult dogs in my situation. Both diseases are are ae contracted from fecese urine or saliva from an infected dog. I can see, when you were living/traveling in a developing country with Perry, that this was a vaccine that you'd want to have on board particularly with a lot of stray dogs around. I do not let my dogs have contact with unknown dogs, so the risk is minimal for them. Your situation with Perry overseas is WAY different with way different risks than my "pampered pups" I think!


I don't either - I was actually more wondering if there was an actual titer for the two of them (DogFather mentioned that he'd gotten the DHPP titer for Ricky) - since I was told that you could only titer for Distemper and Parvo when I got Perry's done last week. 

While Perry is a world traveler, he's still pretty much a pampered pup - we rarely go walking anywhere (and if we're out, I'm probably carrying him), in part because of the number of stray dogs - but also, because of stray dogs in some places, because people will put out poisoned meat to get rid of the strays - so Perry generally does not get to walk around and sniff around just to make sure he doesn't ever grab something that might hurt him. So he didn't get the DHLPP because I was worried in any way (I do want to make sure he's protected from Distemper and Parvo, but I'm not worried about the others no matter what country we're in.)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tere said:


> The thing is that Shadow needs to have his DHPP if he is boarded. Depending on where he is boarded, there can be several things he has to have. Some require Lepto, influenza, bordetella 2X a year, flea and tick meds in addition to a current DHPP and Rabies.
> I am hoping to see my family in Canada when I think it might be safe to fly and there could also be an unexpected emergency that he would need to be boarded for. He's never been boarded in the 4 plus years I've had him and I am dreading it. Having someone pop into the house a couple times a day would not work. He would not be happy with that. He would be much better off being with other dogs.


Everyone has to make their own decisions, based on their own situation. When we used to go away and I just had Kodi, I boarded him with a person with a couple of other dogs. He fit right in with her dogs and loved it there. I don’t think he even missed me! And she had no specific “vaccine rules”. Her ideas on vaccines were similar to mine. (She uses the same vet) After we got Pixel, we started having a woman come and stay here in our house with our dogs when we go away. That works better for Pixel, and when you get up to 4 dogs, honestly, it’s cheaper! LOL! Personally, I would not have been comfortable putting even Kodi in a typical boarding facility.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> The "L" in DHLPP is Lepto - not lyme ...


Sorry, I knew that… brain blip! Too many L’s too many P’s!



Melissa Brill said:


> and while I never really heard of it being a problem there, I think the issue was more wanting dogs being imported there not to bring it with them (any part of the DHLPP), my suspicion anyway, not sure why it was a required vaccine. If I had known you could give the Lepto separate from the DHPP I might have checked it out - I wonder if they would have accepted the logic that you'd given all of the vaccines just not the "DHLPP" as was required. I know, it makes sense, but the people who have to enforce the rules don't always know the substance of what they're enforcing, so I could see a scenario where you had DHPP and Lepto done separately and being told that wasn't right that you had to get DHLPP (even if the substance was the same).


I can definitely see that as a potential problem. Especially if you come through at 2AM with no “higher-up“ to appeal to!



Melissa Brill said:


> If we ever move back to Uganda or anywhere else it's required I would probably check into that.


It would be good if they would allow it, but I suppose if he HAS to have it, it’s not the end of the world. At this point, he’s had it so many times, he does seem to be one of those individuals that seems to tolerate it well!


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

krandall said:


> Everyone has to make their own decisions, based on their own situation. When we used to go away and I just had Kodi, I boarded him with a person with a couple of other dogs. He fit right in with her dogs and loved it there. I don’t think he even missed me! And she had no specific “vaccine rules”. Her ideas on vaccines were similar to mine. (She uses the same vet) After we got Pixel, we started having a woman come and stay here in our house with our dogs when we go away. That works better for Pixel, and when you get up to 4 dogs, honestly, it’s cheaper! LOL! Personally, I would not have been comfortable putting even Kodi in a typical boarding facility.


With previous dogs, I've never had good luck with at my home/at their home sitting here in Florida. People just aren't very competent. I was referred to one woman who sounded great. She cancelled last minute. One time, I came home early to a giant pool party while my dog was soaked(fell in the pool) in his crate wearing his leash.

Boarding is probably the best option. I am going to start checking out the options so I have something lined up when the time to travel comes again. I keep hoping everyone just comes down to visit me so I don't have to leave Shadow.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> It would be good if they would allow it, but I suppose if he HAS to have it, it’s not the end of the world. At this point, he’s had it so many times, he does seem to be one of those individuals that seems to tolerate it well!


I think that's one area we've been lucky in (with the unluckiest dog in so many other ways  )... he's been fine with the vaccines. I do give the rabies and DHLPP (when I had to do the DHLPP) at least 2 weeks and preferably a month apart.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tere said:


> With previous dogs, I've never had good luck with at my home/at their home sitting here in Florida. People just aren't very competent. I was referred to one woman who sounded great. She cancelled last minute. One time, I came home early to a giant pool party while my dog was soaked(fell in the pool) in his crate wearing his leash.
> 
> Boarding is probably the best option. I am going to start checking out the options so I have something lined up when the time to travel comes again. I keep hoping everyone just comes down to visit me so I don't have to leave Shadow.


Oh my goodness!!! How scary!!! We don’t have a “party house”, so that may be part of it. The person we use is through a service that hires and bonds the sitters. We have always used the same person for the over night stays, because she loves our dogs and she took the time to learn how to groom my dogs in full coat. She is wonderful!!! She always sends me photos of the dogs during the day telling me how they are doing.

But for daytime sitting when I’ve needed to be away, there have been other gals from the same service, and they have all been good. I even had one stay twice for full days with the litter when I had to be at the hospital for my monthly infusions. They PROBABLY would have been fine alone… let’s face it, people with full time jobs have litters of puppies… but I wasn’t comfortable with it. The gal they sent was even great with that!

But I can certainly see how you wouldn’t be comfortable with that kind of thing going on in your house!!! Could you take Shadow with you?


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I don’t know if this is true for all manufacturers, but I read that there are separate 1 year and 3 year vaccines. I’m curious if this makes any difference with titers. It seems like it it might be more helpful than I realized to know about the specific brands of the vaccines the vet uses when making a decision about vaccination and titers. I have a memory issue with these kinds of names and I mix things up so I need to make a good tagged note I can save with this information.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> I think that's one area we've been lucky in (with the unluckiest dog in so many other ways  )... he's been fine with the vaccines. I do give the rabies and DHLPP (when I had to do the DHLPP) at least 2 weeks and preferably a month apart.


That’s smart, and I know you do the very best you can for Perry, considering your circumstances. The fact that you made the effort to travel back to the US and stay here for his orthopedic surgeries is above and beyond anything I’ve ever heard! That little guy has an AMAZING life!!!

There is no doubt that they don’t ALL have trouble with vaccines. It’s just that if you have one that does, once you flip that switch, there is no going back. And you will regret it for the rest of the dogs life. So I look at it the way I do spay/neuter. Learn all the pros and cons. Be as careful as you can REASONABLY be, and then go on with your life and enjoy your dog! I would NEVER tell anyone that they shouldn’t have a dog if they can’t do vaccines or spay/neuter in the most minimal way possible. That wouldn’t be fair. But for people who CAN, I just don’t understand not doing the best they can to protect their dog’s health. Not every dog will get harmed from less careful practices, that is true. But it is playing Russian Roulette. I guess I’m not much of a gambler when I have choices.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I don’t know if this is true for all manufacturers, but I read that there are separate 1 year and 3 year vaccines. I’m curious if this makes any difference with titers. It seems like it it might be more helpful than I realized to know about the specific brands of the vaccines the vet uses when making a decision about vaccination and titers. I have a memory issue with these kinds of names and I mix things up so I need to make a good tagged note I can save with this information.


Hmmm. I will check with my vet friends. This MAY be an FDA label game. I know that is true with Rabies vaccine. The vaccine is EXACTLY THE SAME. It just needs to be labeled for one year or three year use to satisfy FDA rules. I have no idea whether this is true for the other vaccines. I suspect it might be, just because when I switched from one year to 3 year for both Kodi and my cat “way back when”, the vet never needed to look in their record to see what type of vaccine was used, we jus didn’t vaccines were used, he simply agreed that they would not be vaccinated again for another (at that time) two years. Before that happened, we switched to our current vet. So IF he had been given a “one year” vaccine, that has remained as durable as any other, since now, at 13, he still has a high titer for both parvo and distemper.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

krandall said:


> Oh my goodness!!! How scary!!! We don’t have a “party house”, so that may be part of it. The person we use is through a service that hires and bonds the sitters. We have always used the same person for the over night stays, because she loves our dogs and she took the time to learn how to groom my dogs in full coat. She is wonderful!!! She always sends me photos of the dogs during the day telling me how they are doing.
> 
> But for daytime sitting when I’ve needed to be away, there have been other gals from the same service, and they have all been good. I even had one stay twice for full days with the litter when I had to be at the hospital for my monthly infusions. They PROBABLY would have been fine alone… let’s face it, people with full time jobs have litters of puppies… but I wasn’t comfortable with it. The gal they sent was even great with that!
> 
> But I can certainly see how you wouldn’t be comfortable with that kind of thing going on in your house!!! Could you take Shadow with you?


Not with his uncontrollable motion sickness. It's 1600 miles and when I am there, I drive around a lot visiting. So even if I flew, he'd be throwing up several times a day. I'd consider driving but 2-3 days of driving each way plus visiting drives. I really thought he'd get over it but nothing has worked.
I just had a great idea though. I could offer to pay for a flight for a family member to come and stay here while I fly home to have a little visit! Right now, no one in my family will fly to FL but that may be a different story in a few months! Well, after hurricane season!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tere said:


> Not with his uncontrollable motion sickness. It's 1600 miles and when I am there, I drive around a lot visiting. So even if I flew, he'd be throwing up several times a day. I'd consider driving but 2-3 days of driving each way plus visiting drives. I really thought he'd get over it but nothing has worked.


oh, yes, I forgot about that.  that won’t work!



Tere said:


> I just had a great idea though. I could offer to pay for a flight for a family member to come and stay here while I fly home to have a little visit! Right now, no one in my family will fly to FL but that may be a different story in a few months! Well, after hurricane season!


THAT’S a WONDERFUL idea!!! And MIGHT end up being cheaper!!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Tere said:


> Not with his uncontrollable motion sickness. It's 1600 miles and when I am there, I drive around a lot visiting. So even if I flew, he'd be throwing up several times a day. I'd consider driving but 2-3 days of driving each way plus visiting drives. I really thought he'd get over it but nothing has worked.
> I just had a great idea though. I could offer to pay for a flight for a family member to come and stay here while I fly home to have a little visit! Right now, no one in my family will fly to FL but that may be a different story in a few months! Well, after hurricane season!


Sundance does well staying with a pet sitter in their home. He usually goes to the same two families with young children so he knows them well. He has only been to one daycare where I have been willing to board him overnight. It is small, and they are only crated at night and for an hour of “quiet time” in the morning and afternoon. The daycare had a change in management and it’s my second choice now, though I still think they’re responsible and safe. They used to have more college age staff and they played a lot more with the dogs. Individual pet sitters have been the most flexible with immunizations. In speaking with a groomer who used to work at the daycare and knows more about other places in my area, I got the impression that most accept titer documentation from a vet, they just don’t advertise it. They are cautious over the phone because they get strange calls from people that don’t want to vaccinate at all. They all require bordatella, but I wonder if that has to do with licensing and they’d accept a medical waiver if necessary. 

Anyway, if you have need for occasional pet sitting for a night or two here and there, it might be worth finding someone you like so Shadow could go to their home. Sundance really enjoys one family with young kids and another dog, and I feel like he’s less stressed about us being gone when he’s there. Where I’m located, private pet sitters can choose what they require in terms of vaccination. There are more price variables for daytime care, but overnight the cost is about the same for me.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

mudpuppymama said:


> I just wanted to add. Although this thread is talking about vaccine sensitivity, I think most of the content is related to OVER vaccination


No, that is not correct. As the OP (original poster) I had a simple question, "does any HF member have a reference for a peer reviewed conclusion that the Havanese breed a vaccine sensitivity breed?" And the answer is "NO" Current professional medical OPINION is that Havanese are just like all other dog breeds, some are vaccine sensitive and some aren't, some more so than others (and Havanese aren't part of the "others" in terms of peer reviewed research). Members have their personal preferences, opinions, and experiences, (including me) but that does not constitute "peer reviewed research."

If you want to talk about "over vaccination", please start another thread rather than take this thread off topic. This thread has gone so far off topic, I am going to close it.


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