# House breaking vs litter box training in frigid weather



## AK Havanese (Jul 9, 2020)

I have learned LOTS from reading ideas on this forum for the past several months but this is my first real post. Up until June I had a 16 1/2 year old Havanese which was fairly easy to house break if my memory serves me correctly. I am picking up an 8 week old male Havanese on Thanksgiving day (unfortunately 6 hour drive each way). Since I live in Fairbanks, Alaska I will be trying to train a tiny pup in some very cold weather (December & January often minus 30-40 F). Since my husband & I are both retired, we (especially me) are ready to give this guy undivided attention most of the time so that he can be properly trained sooner rather than later (ex pen & crate). I would like him to ultimately be trained to go outside but decided that maybe I should spend the winter training him with a litter box and then transition to outside. Many of the do training books that I have (many years old) state that it is a mistake and then possibly more difficult to train inside and then move to outside. So I am looking for opinions on whether I am trying the impossible to just start with outside and try to get a little pup to willingly go outside in extremely cold weather. Obviously there would not typically be time to outfit him in his winter coat before stepping outside. 

Should probably have waited to get a puppy in the summer but just couldn't wait any longer to get another Havanese AND I am lucky to even have the option right now to have my number come up on a wait list and not have to get on an airplane (which I would not do right now anyway).


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## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Congratulations on your soon arrival! I can offer no advice, especially because I live in Texas! But, would love to see pictures of your puppy!


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## Mama Mills (Jul 5, 2020)

This caught my eye as we are bringing our puppy home in December and we live in northern Colorado. Definitely not frigid all winter but we are currently under a foot of snow which is not uncommon at all. Would love to hear what others have to say!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Definitely not harder to train inside and transition. The hardest part of indoor training for me was wrapping my mind around the concept, which can be a challenge when you’re the midst of it, but that’s true of all potty training. There is also a TON of misinformation about it, so you have to trust the process and ignore a lot of “expert” opinions if it’s something you want to do. Hands down the best information about indoor potty training anywhere online is here on the Havanese forum, so definitely look through old threads. 

Indoor training is almost exactly like crate training. The idea is that the puppy sees the area as his home, so the ex pen or crate set up is basically the size of a small bed and a potty tray. They figure out how to use the tray because they do not want to have an accident on their bed. Long term you can use a crate with potty tray set up or you can use an ex pen and very slowly give the puppy more space. 

I have a really hard time with the cold and avoid
it at all costs. I made a huge mistake by not continuing to occasionally use the indoor potty once summer came around. At first we did continue to use it first thing in the morning, but at some point I just forgot, and my kids were out of school so they were taking him out, too, and then I realized he wasn’t using it anymore. The next winter I really regretted it. I can get him to “go potty” on the tray on command, but it’s not the same freedom provided by having a puppy that seeks out the appropriate place to go potty on his own. Yes, I can avoid going out early morning in a storm, but he won’t seek out the potty tray when he’s home alone. As an adult he can hold it for 8 hours or more on a daily basis, but when he’s home alone he gets anxious and he can’t hold it for more than a few hours. I think indoor training is incredibly useful and worth the additional planning and feelings of insecurity going in, partly because I experienced the benefit of it and the comparison of losing the skill. 

Puppies do figure out outdoor potty training after indoor training, they just “get it,” even if you wait all winter to go outside. I did have to shape my puppy’s behavior to go potty quickly, but that’s it. 

I hope it works out for you, I shiver just thinking about that cold!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Eva Elizabeth explained it very well. It really isn't a matter of "House breaking vs litter box training"... A dog who is properly litter box trained IS "house trained... at least as far as potty habits are concerned. If they are in a situation where there is no litter box available, they will wait for or signal for an opportunity to go outdoors if their humans give them that chance. For instance, my dogs, who live with litter boxes available to them at all times at home, do FINE at other people's houses without litter boxes available. I am more attentive to them at someone else's house, simply because they don't necessarily know where the doors to the yard are in a different house, so don't necessarily know where to ASK to go out. 

ALL of mine were litter box trained from 3 weeks old and ALL preferentially go outdoors. They use the litter boxes if outdoors isn't an option. (We live in the northeast, so while it's not as cold as where you are, we get PLENTY of snow!!!) But it's their choice. My youngest one even has run to the litter box to vomit and that is CERTAINLY not anything we trained!!!

I DO think it's kind of unfair, and possibly dangerous to bring such a tiny puppy as a Havanese, with such low body mass outdoors to potty at the temperatures you are talking about. it would be bad enough with an adult with a full coat and a proper winter jacket. But little puppies have to go OFTEN. to get the puppy and you!!!) dressed for the outdoors every hour or two, and then deal with any dawdling while praying that the tiny tyke isn't getting frostbitten feet...

Where people have trouble with indoor training is NOT training. If you allow a puppy to have too much freedom, so they have ACCIDENTS in the house, then yes you are setting yourself up for long-term problems, no matter WHERE you want them to potty, indoors or out. But puppies need MOST to establish the habit of ONLY pottying in their "OK places"... that means litter boxes (or other indoor potty options of your choice) or outdoors. 

Outdoors does NOT need to be "trained. Given access to outdoors, and praised for when it "just happens", they catch on VERY quickly, and soon prefer it!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Even in temperatures that are much warmer than 30-40 degrees below zero you have to also consider wetness. During winter the paws can freeze up fairly easily if temps get below freezing and the dog is wet. Winters are fairly mild here but we can get down into the teens for several days. We always have a cleared pooping spot outside where paws can stay dry. Unfortunately mine were not trained to go inside, one of my regrets.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

I don't think it's a good idea to take out a tiny puppy in weather that cold. Potty training could also fail if the puppy starts to associate going out with being cold. Even my adult dog resists going out some winter mornings and it's nowhere near that cold here. My puppy is 5 months old and goes primarily indoors. It is so awesome not to have to take her out every hour. She pees outside only if we happen to be out there.


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## AK Havanese (Jul 9, 2020)

Thanks for all the helpful replies. I am going to stick with the plan of starting him off with a litter box. I have read opinions on different litter box/pee pad options on other threads but would like to throw this out to you. I am wondering about getting a high sided litter box with pee pads which is 23x18.5 and 11" high but has an opening for stepping in. Do you think there is a problem with the high sides? Since I am getting a male and I'm thinking he will likely be on the large side (already weighs just over 2lbs and only 3 weeks old), seems this could be better in the long term. 
How about pee pads vs pellets and open box vs grate??


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

AK Havanese said:


> Thanks for all the helpful replies. I am going to stick with the plan of starting him off with a litter box. I have read opinions on different litter box/pee pad options on other threads but would like to throw this out to you. I am wondering about getting a high sided litter box with pee pads which is 23x18.5 and 11" high but has an opening for stepping in. Do you think there is a problem with the high sides? Since I am getting a male and I'm thinking he will likely be on the large side (already weighs just over 2lbs and only 3 weeks old), seems this could be better in the long term.
> How about pee pads vs pellets and open box vs grate??


My boy never has been a leg-up pee-r (he only lifts his leg to mark, and he has NEVER marked in the house) so he has never had any problem with a "normal" litter box or potty tray. He did what MANY puppies (especially boys!) do in the VERY beginning, which was to race over, plant his front feet on the pellets, and let go. LOL! We solved that problem by moving the litter back away from the front edge of the box, so he had to step ALL the way in to get his feet on the pellets.  Once he had the hang of it, he can now use a potty tray that is only JUST big enough to hold his (rather substantial) frame. He will position himself very carefully so that he doesn't miss. 

I am not a fan of pee pads for a number of reasons. First, they STINK, the moment they've been peed on once. Some people seem not to mind the smell, but it's a smell I can't live with. Second, MANY dogs WILL NOT use a pee pad again if they have been peed on once, meaning you go through a LOT of them, and if they pee once while you are out, you can come back and find that they've been forced into an accident elsewhere because THEY find the smell aversive. Third, MOST Havanese will tear them up if they are not under a grate... Havanese are unrepentant paper chewers! Last, they are plastic, not biodegradable, and horrible for the environment.

Some people try "washable" pee pads as an alternative. This might seem like a good plan, EXCEPT, you are now TRAINING your puppy to pee on a piece of cloth that you place on the floor. See the problem here? I have met WAY TOO MANY people who have used washable pee pads and have ended up with a dog who can NEVER be broken of peeing on scatter rugs or any other piece of cloth left on the floor. And can you blame them? That's what they've been trained to do. Paper pee pads and wood pellets are substances that are COMPLETELY different, and SMELL completely different than ANYTHING else the dogs will encounter in their lives. There is NOTHING in the household that the dog is going to confuse with either one.

Finally, over time, I have come to really like grated litter boxes. MOST of mine are grated. The only one that isn't is only because I couldn't find a grated one at the time, and it's in a place where it is RARELY used anyway. But the grate keeps ANY pellets from making their way out of the tray. We walk around our house in socks or barefoot a lot, and wood pellets can hurt ALMOST as much as stepping on a Lego! LOL! We also have ONE dog with a sensitive stomach, who has the bad habit of eating pellets if his stomach is bothering him... NOT a good idea. The grates keep that from happening. (this is NOT a problem with most dogs, however!)


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Welcome! You're getting good advice here. It's 30 degrees here (feels like 24 according to my phone), and, after peeing, Shama stayed outside a little while doing who knows what while I came in because it's cold (especially for October 27!) There is still snow on the ground, but it's only covering about half the yard, so she was probably not walking in the snow (although often when she has choice between snow that has melted a bit and refrozen to be solid and the ground, she chooses the snow). The point is that she doesn't mind the cold. (As a kid, I lived four hours north of here, and I had a five-pound minpin, and she did NOT like the cold!) That said, I agree with those who have said that offering pottying outside in the temperatures you described as the only pottying option for a tiny puppy is ill advised. Shama had a training tray in her ex pen until she stopped using it. Now she only ever goes outside. (I wonder what would happen if we put the training tray back in her pen and left her alone for some extremely long time? I'm guessing she'd use it again.) Good luck with whatever you decide to do. Please keep us posted, and post photos of your little popsicle!


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## Lousmom (Sep 2, 2020)

Following this thread! So helpful! Could anyone share where they bought their grated litter boxes? I already bought a big pack of pee pads but am being converted to litter box thanks to this forum!


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## Vartina Ancrum (Oct 10, 2019)

Welcome and congratulations. I personally love the litterbox option during bad weather. Izzie is litterbox trained and doesn't have accidents in the house so far (probably because I never let her out of my sight). My older dog has always gone outside. I am learning that Izzie doesn't want to go outside in bad weather and so far it's fine with me because this means I only have to dash my Yorkie outside and back in. Using the pellets from the Tractor Supply Store is awesome. There is no odor and I was very concerned about that.

Izzie will be 4 months old next week. I think it's great to have both options available (litterbox and outside). Before researching Havanese and meeting my breeder I never heard of litterbox for dogs. I was accustomed to fake grass patches and puppy pads.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lousmom said:


> Following this thread! So helpful! Could anyone share where they bought their grated litter boxes? I already bought a big pack of pee pads but am being converted to litter box thanks to this forum!


Unfortunately, the BEST ones are no longer sold here in the U.S. 

But several of the "potty trays" are deep enough that you can put a layer of pellets under the grate without any problem. The one we use is the UgoDog, but I'm not sure if that brand is still made either! Other people, I'm sure have more current brands! If you can find a used "Rascal Dog" on Ebay or somewhere, they are far and away, THE BEST!!!

Tom King (hope he weighs in) makes his own using some big trays he gets at Tractor Supply. Can't remember what he puts over them.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I can't remember exactly what I used when I made them, but that's been so long ago I forgot.

Litter boxes don't seem to stay in production long. We stock up whenever some come available.

I do make the ones for the little puppies, out of Sterilite boxes that fit tight in the whelping boxes. I cut one side down with a utility knife blade, held by old Visegrips, and heated red hot with a propane torch. The entry side needs to be down to be level with the bedding, and still hold enough litter for it to also be level with the bedding.

It's all about creating habits. They have absolutely no reasoning about it until they are grown. You can't explain it to them.

They have the instinct, to start with, not to soil their bedding, but that's easily lost if it's hard to do.


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## Lousmom (Sep 2, 2020)

Tom King said:


> I can't remember exactly what I used when I made them, but that's been so long ago I forgot.
> 
> Litter boxes don't seem to stay in production long. We stock up whenever some come available.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the tips!

I scoured Amazon and the only ones I could find were either for cats with really high sides (thinking not great for a pup) or for rabbits and ferrets. In the end I ordered a litter pan from Chewy with some pellets. We're leaving on Friday to pick him up so I'm hoping it arrives by the time we get back. I saw some grates on Etsy but wouldn't arrive in time. I don't want to start him on one system and then switch so fingers crossed the pan and pellets work.


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## Lousmom (Sep 2, 2020)

krandall said:


> Unfortunately, the BEST ones are no longer sold here in the U.S.
> 
> But several of the "potty trays" are deep enough that you can put a layer of pellets under the grate without any problem. The one we use is the UgoDog, but I'm not sure if that brand is still made either! Other people, I'm sure have more current brands! If you can find a used "Rascal Dog" on Ebay or somewhere, they are far and away, THE BEST!!!
> 
> Tom King (hope he weighs in) makes his own using some big trays he gets at Tractor Supply. Can't remember what he puts over them.


Thank you! Rascal Dog looks great but no luck. I saw this also (for anyone that might be looking) but didn't like that it didn't have raised sides...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lousmom said:


> Thank you! Rascal Dog looks great but no luck. I saw this also (for anyone that might be looking) but didn't like that it didn't have raised sides...
> 
> Amazon.com : HIPIPET Puppy Dog Potty Tray 23.6''X18.1''X1.9'' Puppy Pad Holder with Removable Post and Wall Cover for Cats and Dogs Toilet (Orange) : Pet Supplies


I actually don't mind that it doesn't have raised sides. All of mine learned to use the trays without raised sides. Let's face it, those who use pee pads don't have any "sides" at all! 

I absolutely WOULDN'T use that POST!!! I have always done everything I COULD to discourage ANY leg-lifting in the house. Which means no convenient vertical surfaces!


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## AK Havanese (Jul 9, 2020)

So Karen does that mean you would not use the high sided one I have attached from Amazon? Would get my husband to build a grate. I plan to discourage leg raising inside but was looking for a way to just contain the pee/poop in the box. 
Amazon.com : Nature's Miracle High-Sided Litter Box, 23 x 18.5 x 11 inches : Extra Large Litter Box : Pet Supplies


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lousmom said:


> Thank you for the tips!
> 
> I scoured Amazon and the only ones I could find were either for cats with really high sides (thinking not great for a pup) or for rabbits and ferrets. In the end I ordered a litter pan from Chewy with some pellets. We're leaving on Friday to pick him up so I'm hoping it arrives by the time we get back. I saw some grates on Etsy but wouldn't arrive in time. I don't want to start him on one system and then switch so fingers crossed the pan and pellets work.


I know you want to start with SOMETHING. The good thing is that puppies are NOT cats. Puppies started on litter are usually pretty darned accepting of different "styles" of litter boxes over time. I've never had trouble having mine immediately recognize, and use, a new type of litter box, even at a friend's house, as long as it had wood pellets in it.

In fact, Pam King sent both of my "Starborn puppies" home with one of her "portable litter boxes" for their LONG trips home... A HUGE large-dog-sized pee pad wrapped around a little pile of pellets. As needed, I could spread this out on the floor, or in the trunk of the car, deposit the puppy on the pile of litter in the middle of the pad, and, Voila! 

I learned this, even more, when I arrived at a hotel for a dog show with Panda, in the middle of the winter, and realized that I'd left her litter box at home. Yes, I COULD have gotten up and put on my clothes to take her outside as necessary, but... COLD and SNOW, and slushy parking lot... with a show-clean dog!!! Yuck! So I stopped at a Home Depot across the street and bought a disposable paint roller pan and a bag of wood stove pellets. There! We had a make-do litter box! I put it in the bathroom and showed her where it was. I never HEARD her get out of bed during the night, but when I got up in the morning, there was a little wet spot in the litter box! I LOVE litter box trained dogs!!!


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> I put it in the bathroom and showed her where it was. I never HEARD her get out of bed during the night, but when I got up in the morning, there was a little wet spot in the litter box! I LOVE litter box trained dogs!!!


What a clever girl!


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

Question about the grate litter box: Don't you have to spend a lot of time washing down the grate after they pooped? The poop doesn't fall through, right? Also my Jack was one of those dreaded poop-eaters. (Oh, the SHAME!!!  ) Would you have to run over and clean it right away?


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

You've gotten lots of good advice on indoor-housebreaking. 

I've purchased almost every potty tray that's sold. I tried: Fake Grass. Cloth Potty Pads. You can't wash the stink out of fake grass of cloth potty pads. Paper Pads Stink, too. They're not bad with puppies a few weeks old but they quickly get bigger and the pads become stinky. I keep some around if we travel and stay in a hotel. I take a small potty tray with us and put paper pad inside it. However, Patti is now 2 yrs 8 months and I usually walk her outside for her to Do Her Job when we are at a hotel. 

UGoDog is a great potty tray because of the way it clamps down over Equine Pine Pellets, but the company must be out of business as you can't buy these now. 

The Bylss tray below is similar to the the UGoDog tray but is smaller in size. I use this tray in our Master Bathroom when I have it in a small area. 

The Richell Potty Tray is larger and I, also, use this one in another area of the house and in a second home.

You only need a single layer of pellets. They work in both of these trays.

A potty tray with sides helps keep the puppy or dog inside the tray but the lack a grates on top of sided trays to cover the pellets is a problem. Occasionally, the puppy or dog with stand on a flat tray with their butt a little off or close to the edge and a little pee or poop will land on the floor.

This issue eventually solves itself. The dogs get better at learning to use it and you can push it up to the side of a wall to help. 

Patti is now 2-years 8 months and prefers to go outside but uses the potty tray if she can't get out or the weather is bad and she doesn't want to go out. 

I tell people, Patti basically trained herself to use an indoor-potty tray and go outside. All I had to do was provide the opportunity and keep her confined to the area until she Got the Idea. Initially, I had a hard time Getting My Head Around Indoor-Potty Training. It only took a couple of days for me to change my mind after taking Patti out to potty every hour. Ooops! that's than often enough. Then every 30 mins. Ooops! that's not often enough. Then every 15 minutes. Ooops! she came right back and squatted while playing. :surprise: I was a Quick Converted to Indoor-Potty training.

I particularly Love It... when we go the mountains where we stay in a three story townhome and there is NO YARD... requiring most people to walk their dogs morning, noon and night. And if they leave for the day, the need to find someone to walk their dog.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

morriscsps said:


> Question about the grate litter box: Don't you have to spend a lot of time washing down the grate after they pooped? The poop doesn't fall through, right? Also my Jack was one of those dreaded poop-eaters. (Oh, the SHAME!!!  ) Would you have to run over and clean it right away?


Well, if you have a poop eater, all bets are off. But that is a completely different issue, and one I haven't had to deal with (thankfully!) So all I can say is that IF I had a puppy that even LOOKED like they were going to eat poop, I would do everything I could to NEVER let the puppy have the opportunity to eat poop. Which would mean pretty much ALWAYS supervising pooping. For a long, LONG time. That's what I did with Kodi just out of fear that he MIGHT become a poop eater. I can't tell you it worked, though, because I just don't think he was a poop eater.

As far as the grate is concerned, the poop just sits on top, and as long as the poop is normally formed, I just pick it up in a piece of toilet paper, tell them what good puppies they are, then we have a parade to the toilet and flush it. It is very rare that there is any residue on the grate. If someone has a "less formed" poop that leaves something behind, USUALLY I can wipe the top of the grate off with some nature's miracle and we're all set. (the grates are flatter on the top, than, let's say, egg crate would be, so they DO wipe off easily) On the VERY rare occasion that someone has a REALLY loose poop that goes THROUGH the grate, then, yes, it does need to be hosed off. But it comes off quite easily. At least on the two brands I have.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

morriscsps said:


> Question about the grate litter box: Don't you have to spend a lot of time washing down the grate after they pooped? The poop doesn't fall through, right? Also my Jack was one of those dreaded poop-eaters. (Oh, the SHAME!!!  ) Would you have to run over and clean it right away?


Someone on this forum had a poop eater and was able to get it stopped. From what I remember is she had Treats ready and when the dog pooped she quickly called Treats! and she picked up the poop. The dog learned to come for a Treat and left the poop. Eventually, he lost interest in poop eating.

Anyway...that's the way I remember it. Maybe the person will Reply.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I personally prefer the low profile potty trays because they can slide out of the way easily and are less obstructive outside of an expen. I have never had any “overspray” with my male Havanese. I did buy a litter box with higher sides because i was worried about it on a carpeted area, but it wasn’t a problem at all. 

He did miss the box once or twice very early on, exactly how Karen described. Was that in this thread? The “planting” made me laugh out loud because it’s exactly how Sundance did it with his front legs, very proud he was using the litter box, even though the pee went right next to it because he was only halfway inside. He figured it out very quickly. I do remember one time he missed after I moved the tray into a different room. He was very concerned and came to get me to show me what happened. In that case I think I just moved it a little too far and he was thrown off because I didn’t do anything special and it didn’t happen again. 

You could lay something beneath the litter box if you’re concerned about containment on the floor while the puppy is learning. But it really shouldn’t be too much of a problem because the expen shouldn’t be big enough to have space around the sides. 

I rarely had a problem with the poop sticking to the grate, and mine did have trouble with soft poop when he was little. Back when sanitizing wipes were regularly available that was plenty, it’s not like it was getting stuck between the grid or I had to scrub the whole thing down every time. Most of the time he pooped outside, though. It was harder to get him to poop on the tray because we started indoor training a little bit late and he had a routine of circling and pooping 2 separate times before coming in (the breeder introduced him to indoor training but I was undecided about continuing and was lucky he took to it). If there wasn’t snow, we took him outside in the morning and at bedtime and used the tray during the day.


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## AK Havanese (Jul 9, 2020)

Thanks for all the input from everyone. Very helpful & gives me lots of good ideas. Have never wanted to join a forum in the past but really glad I found and joined this one:smile2: Now just have to wait 4 more weeks for Frankie!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

My earlier post in this thread was about little puppies, before they have left their whelping box, and not intended to be about puppies older than 3 to 4 weeks old. Just wanted to make that clear. They gradually get moved to larger, and larger pen arrangements.


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## HappyCamper (Jan 8, 2020)

AK Havanese said:


> I have learned LOTS from reading ideas on this forum for the past several months but this is my first real post. Up until June I had a 16 1/2 year old Havanese which was fairly easy to house break if my memory serves me correctly. I am picking up an 8 week old male Havanese on Thanksgiving day (unfortunately 6 hour drive each way). Since I live in Fairbanks, Alaska I will be trying to train a tiny pup in some very cold weather (December & January often minus 30-40 F). Since my husband & I are both retired, we (especially me) are ready to give this guy undivided attention most of the time so that he can be properly trained sooner rather than later (ex pen & crate). I would like him to ultimately be trained to go outside but decided that maybe I should spend the winter training him with a litter box and then transition to outside. Many of the do training books that I have (many years old) state that it is a mistake and then possibly more difficult to train inside and then move to outside. So I am looking for opinions on whether I am trying the impossible to just start with outside and try to get a little pup to willingly go outside in extremely cold weather. Obviously there would not typically be time to outfit him in his winter coat before stepping outside.
> 
> Should probably have waited to get a puppy in the summer but just couldn't wait any longer to get another Havanese AND I am lucky to even have the option right now to have my number come up on a wait list and not have to get on an airplane (which I would not do right now anyway).


Hi! I have only had our dog since September of 2019 and she is about 18 months old. Although I live in CA now, I lived in Kotzebue AK (which is north of the Arctic Circle) for 10 years... so I get cold. We crate trained our puppy here in CA, so I don't have first hand experience, but I have a couple ideas. Do you live in apartments or a stand-alone house? Do you have an arctic entry way? If you live in a stand alone house with an arctic entryway, I would crate train and take him outside to do his business, but I would leave a puppy pad in the arctic entry-way for temps way below zero. That way, he will learn to go to the door to go out. Always take him to the same place outside. If you have your own property you may be able to build a little sheltered area. If you live in apartments it may be a lot harder to potty train for outdoors. Our neighbor in Kotzebue was able to potty train her puppy in the middle of winter. She had 5 boys though and was able to have them take the puppy out frequently.

I wish you good luck! I sure miss AK!!!


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## HappyCamper (Jan 8, 2020)

HappyCamper said:


> Hi! I have only had our dog since September of 2019 and she is about 18 months old. Although I live in CA now, I lived in Kotzebue AK (which is north of the Arctic Circle) for 10 years... so I get cold. We crate trained our puppy here in CA, so I don't have first hand experience, but I have a couple ideas. Do you live in apartments or a stand-alone house? Do you have an arctic entry way? If you live in a stand alone house with an arctic entryway, I would crate train and take him outside to do his business, but I would leave a puppy pad in the arctic entry-way for temps way below zero. That way, he will learn to go to the door to go out. Always take him to the same place outside. If you have your own property you may be able to build a little sheltered area. If you live in apartments it may be a lot harder to potty train for outdoors. Our neighbor in Kotzebue was able to potty train her puppy in the middle of winter. She had 5 boys though and was able to have them take the puppy out frequently.
> 
> I wish you good luck! I sure miss AK!!!


I just read through all the other responses about indoor training! It all sounds like great advice. :grin2: Staying warm and training indoors sounds better. :tea:


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

HappyCamper said:


> Hi! I have only had our dog since September of 2019 and she is about 18 months old. Although I live in CA now, I lived in Kotzebue AK (which is north of the Arctic Circle) for 10 years... so I get cold. We crate trained our puppy here in CA, so I don't have first hand experience, but I have a couple ideas. Do you live in apartments or a stand-alone house? Do you have an arctic entry way? If you live in a stand alone house with an arctic entryway, I would crate train and take him outside to do his business, but I would leave a puppy pad in the arctic entry-way for temps way below zero. That way, he will learn to go to the door to go out. Always take him to the same place outside. If you have your own property you may be able to build a little sheltered area. If you live in apartments it may be a lot harder to potty train for outdoors. Our neighbor in Kotzebue was able to potty train her puppy in the middle of winter. She had 5 boys though and was able to have them take the puppy out frequently.
> 
> I wish you good luck! I sure miss AK!!!


FYI..... Once a dog is trained where it is OK to potty on an indoor-potty tray, you don't have to train a dog to go outdoors to potty. They naturally decide to do that on their own if given the opportunity. And once their trained on the indoor-potty tray you can move it to another area/s and show them where to go.

Indoor-potty training a toy dog is a whole lot easier than outdoor training even in ideal weather. *What you can't do is the Reverse*. If the puppy is trained to go outside, I've yet to hear of anyone who has been able to train their dog to use an indoor-potty tray. Lots of people regret not doing indoor-potty training.

My Havanese is 2-yrs 8-mos. We have a doggie door and she chooses to NOT use the indoor-potty tray the majority of time. She, also, asks to go outside when she's lazy and doesn't want to walked to the back door and go through the doggie door. However, during rain storms, ice storms and snow she'll opt for using the indoor-potty tray.


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## HappyCamper (Jan 8, 2020)

Mikki said:


> FYI..... Once a dog is trained where it is OK to potty on an indoor-potty tray, you don't have to train a dog to go outdoors to potty. They naturally decide to do that on their own if given the opportunity. And once their trained on the indoor-potty tray you can move it to another area/s and show them where to go.
> 
> Indoor-potty training a toy dog is a whole lot easier than outdoor training even in ideal weather. *What you can't do is the Reverse*. If the puppy is trained to go outside, I've yet to hear of anyone who has been able to train their dog to use an indoor-potty tray. Lots of people regret not doing indoor-potty training.
> 
> My Havanese is 2-yrs 8-mos. We have a doggie door and she chooses to NOT use the indoor-potty tray the majority of time. She, also, asks to go outside when she's lazy and doesn't want to walked to the back door and go through the doggie door. However, during rain storms, ice storms and snow she'll opt for using the indoor-potty tray.


That is so interesting! I have live in the country most of my life, so I have never even met anyone who has trained their dog for indoors. We have a doggie door, and I love the fact that she is able to go in and out on her own and has her own little yard. A few weeks ago it was VERY HOT outside (about 101). She stuck her head out the doggie door and looked around for about 10 seconds, pulled her head back in, and pooped on the floor by the door. LOL! I could almost hear her thoughts, "Nope, not going out there...I'm going to poop right here."


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

HappyCamper said:


> That is so interesting! I have live in the country most of my life, so I have never even met anyone who has trained their dog for indoors. We have a doggie door, and I love the fact that she is able to go in and out on her own and has her own little yard. *A few weeks ago it was VERY HOT outside (about 101). She stuck her head out the doggie door and looked around for about 10 seconds, pulled her head back in, and pooped on the floor *by the door. LOL! I could almost hear her thoughts, "Nope, not going out there...I'm going to poop right here."


*LOL!!!! At least your Girl got Close to Getting it Right. * You probably don't know but someone from Oklahoma would likely rank 101 in California as a pretty nice day even if you're inland and not close to the ocean breeze. Once lived in San Diego for a while.

*My Little Dog from Cuba experience: Havanese do NOT like Hot!! Weather*. Nor do they like anything extreme such as Icy Rain, Gale Blowing Winds, Pouring Down Rain, Very Cold mornings or Wet Dewey Grass. On those days or nights Patti elects to use her indoor-bathroom. 

Patti Pokes Her Nose outside to check things out and if things are NOT EXTREME she'll make a mad dash outside in light rain, snow or ice. But forget about going out in Hot! Weather, Pouring Down Rain, Very Cold or Hot Windy Days. She'll Tip Toe like a Ballerina through the grass if it's NOT soaking wet. AND YES!! Doggie Doors are very handy.

Patti LOVES!! to hangout outside on the porch when the weather is dry in the 30s or 40s. After the sun goes down I always find her on a plush-comfy patio chair when it's time for bed. She's like a Wet Noodle when I pick her up to bring her in. Patti really Loves cold patio evenings in the Rocky Mountains

Alaska has been on My Bucket List forever. Don't think I'll ever get there but I learned in a college Geology Class Alaska it was ranked #1 as the best and most beautiful state to see. Although, we have a place in the Rocky Mountains from my limited  travel experience, I'd rank Jacksonhole, Wyoming as the most best and most beautiful places in America.

Jacksonhole was too far for us to travel on a routine basis and we heard.....many moons ago...the Rocky Mountains were the most beautiful. So we took off to see the Colorado Rockies. When I saw them I said, _Huh! people think these mountains are beautiful? _After first seeing Jacksonhole I was very disappointed but I have grown to love the Rockies and many of the areas are gorgeous. I'm guessing Alaska beats Jacksonhole...:wink2:


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## AK Havanese (Jul 9, 2020)

I actually think Alaska beats most places in rustic natural beauty except where I live - Fairbanks would not be considered beautiful by most but it does have many other redeeming qualities, one of which is not the winter temps. 

Thinking about another issue on the litter training. If pup is always in his ex pen when I do not have eyes on, and the ex pen has just enough space for crate and litter box, then he should not have accidents and automatically go to the litter box. Seems like I would not be doing much of the training except when I have just played with him, fed him, walked him, etc. & then I would put him in the litter box in the ex pen & persuade him to go. Sound reasonable?


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

AK Havanese said:


> I actually think Alaska beats most places in rustic natural beauty except where I live - Fairbanks would not be considered beautiful by most but it does have many other redeeming qualities, one of which is not the winter temps.
> 
> Thinking about another issue on the litter training. If pup is always in his ex pen when I do not have eyes on, and the ex pen has just enough space for crate and litter box, then he should not have accidents and automatically go to the litter box. Seems like I would not be doing much of the training except when I have just played with him, fed him, walked him, etc. & then I would put him in the litter box in the ex pen & persuade him to go. Sound reasonable?


This is how it worked for Roxie. It was more difficult with Oliver though. He would pee/ poop right outside of it. Having NO space is a good plan because it forces them to succeed. So. there is training regardless. Not ALL puppies immediately get it. Also, the case with these little dogs is that they have to pee every 5 seconds. So it's conceivable that the puppy could have accidents even with you watching, even if they'd just gone. I don't want to give you the impression this is always super easy or that there isn't training REGARDLESS. With Roxie it WAS really easy. It will depend on your puppy as an individual, to some degree.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

AK Havanese said:


> If pup is always in his ex pen when I do not have eyes on, and the ex pen has just enough space for crate and litter box, then he should not have accidents and automatically go to the litter box. Seems like I would not be doing much of the training except when I have just played with him, fed him, walked him, etc. & then I would put him in the litter box in the ex pen & persuade him to go. Sound reasonable?


That is the beauty of it!

The role you play is very slowly making the expen larger, over weeks and months. The puppy generalizes the skill of using the potty to the larger area, as long as you go slow.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

AK Havanese said:


> Thinking about another issue on the litter training. If pup is always in his ex pen when I do not have eyes on, and the ex pen has just enough space for crate and litter box, then he should not have accidents and automatically go to the litter box. Seems like I would not be doing much of the training except when I have just played with him, fed him, walked him, etc. & then I would put him in the litter box in the ex pen & persuade him to go. Sound reasonable?


Yes!! as you've simply put it that's the way it works. Patti was 8-weeks-old and instinctively went to the potty-tray in her ex-pen. Tom King is a breeder and as soon as his 3 week-old puppies can waddle they instinctively go to the litter box.

If you put toys, food, water and a potty tray in the ex-pen, they learn that's a special place. Then PERSUADE them to continue their instinct of using the potty tray by giving them a Treat combined with Lots of Praise.

It's Important they are confined and not given the Freedom to freely roam the home. Karen recommends waiting 2-3 months before fully Trust them in one room area. Then proceed to other parts of the house. That DOES NOT mean locking a puppy up in an ex-pen, crate or playpen.

The photo is a picture of my ex-pen that was 3ft x 6ft. The ex-pen door blocked one doorway entry into a kitchen-family area where the family hangs out most of the time. A second doorway was gated off. When the ex-pen door was opened Patti played inside and outside of her ex-pen *but was limited to one room.* When we were busy and couldn't watch her she was confined to the ex-pen until she learned how to navigate back to the ex-pen to potty on the potty tray, which didn't take very long because she associated getting Treats with going to the potty tray.

At night Patti slept in a crate in our bedroom. It was large enough for a potty tray area but I was new to all of this and was AFRAID to let her potty in the crate. If she woke up I took her to the ex-pen and she pottied on ex-pen potty tray.

I could have left her in the ex-pen overnight but in our situation that area of the house is too busy. We live in an intergenerational home with two teenage boys who are in and out of the kitchen all night and into the wee hours of the morning.:wink2:

After Patti got the hang of using the potty tray in the family-kitchen area, I took her to different rooms. For example: In the TV room she played with toys while tethered to a leash and learned the path to potty tray ... Treating and Praising her when she pottied on the tray.

After a short period of time I was able to take the leash off but kept a close eye on her. There were a few accidents but she always caught in the act, which helped teach her were she was NOT allowed to go.

It was 10-months before Patti was allowed to "somewhat" freely roam around between two different rooms. At one year she was given access to the main part of the house, and shown how to get to and out the doggie door. Eventually I moved a couple of potty trays to where I wanted them, out of sight but accessible to her.

At times we still gate off parts of the house for various reasons but those reasons are due to potty issues.

An ex-pen is also VERY HELPFUL during the biting stage and other annoying puppy stages. ShamaMama has kept her ex-pen up and uses it. It's a very cool looking ex-pen. I can't remember the brand....ShamaMama ... Help! >


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

AK Havanese said:


> I actually think Alaska beats most places in rustic natural beauty except where I live - Fairbanks would not be considered beautiful by most but it does have many other redeeming qualities, one of which is not the winter temps.
> 
> Thinking about another issue on the litter training. If pup is always in his ex pen when I do not have eyes on, and the ex pen has just enough space for crate and litter box, then he should not have accidents and automatically go to the litter box. Seems like I would not be doing much of the training except when I have just played with him, fed him, walked him, etc. & then I would put him in the litter box in the ex pen & persuade him to go. Sound reasonable?


Yes, depending on how much training the breeder did before you got him the ex-pen can be larger or smaller. All of mine came from breeders who had done an EXCELLENT job on early potty training, and all were absolutely reliable in an ex-pen-sized space with a bed and a litter tray. If the puppy is having more trouble (missing the tray) you need to close the space down to whatever makes them be successful close to 100% of the time if you can't watch them.

Below are to photos. The first is a "normal" puppy pen set up in our house. The second is what we call "puppy jail". In this case, it was after Panda had a UTI and convinced herself that the potty tray had caused her problems. (she quickly got back on track!) But this same size arrangement is how you would start a puppy who was not yet reliable with more space in an ex-pen.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> It's Important they are confined and not given the Freedom to freely roam the home. Karen recommends waiting 2-3 months before fully Trust them in one room area. Then proceed to other parts of the house. That DOES NOT mean locking a puppy up in an ex-pen, crate or playpen.


...And "trust" is maybe not totally accurate... I STILL wouldn't be leaving a puppy loose, unsupervised, even in a single room for long periods at that age. MAYBE they won't pee or poop... (though they MIGHT) But they can get into ALL KINDS of OTHER unexpected trouble!!! LOL!


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## AK Havanese (Jul 9, 2020)

Once again thanks Mikki & Karen for more detail and pictures. I was going to set up the ex pen with just enough room for crate (toys in crate) and potty tray but maybe I need to expand a little and make room for food & water? I thought that using a crate was important but Karen yours just has a bed. Is that because your dogs are older and trained? Also, looks like neither of you have floor protection under the pens - I feel like I would need something waterproof under the entire pen as mine will be either on carpet or hardwood.

Also, I think I know what kind of pen you have but Karen can you tell me what type you have?


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

AK Havanese said:


> Once again thanks Mikki & Karen for more detail and pictures. I was going to set up the ex pen with just enough room for crate (toys in crate) and potty tray but maybe I need to expand a little and make room for food & water? I thought that using a crate was important but Karen yours just has a bed. Is that because your dogs are older and trained? Also, looks like neither of you have floor protection under the pens - I feel like I would need something waterproof under the entire pen as mine will be either on carpet or hardwood.
> 
> Also, I think I know what kind of pen you have but Karen can you tell me what type you have?


Yes! you will want to cover carpet ... For Sure. You want to set the ex-pen on top of a piece of vinyl flooring on a carpeted floor.

And ... in the beginning I had TWO potty trays, side-by-side. The photo you saw was set up Before Patti came to her new home. Her breeder DID NOT do potty training but Patti instinctively went to potty tray. However, she was 3.5lbs in a six foot long ex-pen. It was a little to large in the beginning. She got close but didn't quit make the distance and I added a second tray but it was not very long before I removed it to give Patti extra room for her toys. :laugh2:

Below is a photo of an ex-pen with a floor that I used in a home that was carpeted. I'm not recommending you get this. Just showing it to you. If you want something like this ShamaMama has a better resource. I'm blanking on the website. Or, Karen's set up which she can refer you to.

I ended up taking out the small carrying crate you saw in my picture and put down a baby blanket for Patti to sleep on. She got hot in the crate and didn't like sleeping on a dog bed. Patti preferred sleeping on the tile floor. 

When Patti was given a new toy she would run off and put it in her ex-pen. So! Cute! She wanted all her stuff in her ex-pen.


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

krandall said:


> ...then we have a parade to the toilet and flush it.


the weird things we do.... :grin2:


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## Mama Mills (Jul 5, 2020)

Wow this has been hugely helpful and informative! Thanks to all for sharing insight. My question is... if there is no room in the xpen for anything other than bed/crate, pee pad, water where does the puppy play and burn off energy? It makes a lot of sense to not grant access to unprotected floors (we have mostly carpet) when they are so small but if it’s winter and going outside is limited is it either xpen or being held??


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

AK Havanese said:


> Thanks for all the input from everyone. Very helpful & gives me lots of good ideas. Have never wanted to join a forum in the past but really glad I found and joined this one:smile2: Now just have to wait 4 more weeks for Frankie!


I'm glad you joined the forum. I think it's so fun having friends with Havanese all around the world!

The brand of our ex pen is Pupperton. It comes with a waterproof, machine-washable floor mat which doubles as the carrying case. (We love that we can take it wherever we go. 
When we visited my parents this summer, COVID prevented us from staying in their basement like we usually do (Shama sleeps in her ex pen in the dining room there), so we rented a one-room cabin for Shama (and her ex pen) and us.)

Here are pictures of Shama's set-up. It's funny that just today, I took another picture of her lying in her alley. (See below.) Earlier in the day, she'd been barking at the activity across the street as well as those things that invaded our house on Monday and keep moving all the time (three helium balloons a friend gave me for my birthday ...), and I had a Zoom meeting to attend, so into her pen she got plunked. She just took a nap and did not disturb my meeting.

Last night, I also finally shot a video of her nightly routine of scratching her head and back on the bars of her pen before going to bed. Here it is. Be sure to watch to the end when she's like, "Wait, are you taking a picture of me? If I sit, will you give me a treat?"

This pen was expensive, but we figured we'd use it for Shama's entire life as well as for the entire lives of all our future Havanese. We also knew we'd be using it every school day while we're teaching. (We even used it during distance teaching last spring for part of the day when both DH and I were video conferencing with students.) It was made right here in Minnesota!


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Mama Mills said:


> Wow this has been hugely helpful and informative! Thanks to all for sharing insight. My question is... if there is no room in the xpen for anything other than bed/crate, pee pad, water where does the puppy play and burn off energy? It makes a lot of sense to not grant access to unprotected floors (we have mostly carpet) when they are so small but if it's winter and going outside is limited is it either xpen or being held??


You are correct that there's not much room in the pen for physical play. I remember reading that you could play with the puppy right after they pottied because at that moment they were "empty." I remember thinking later that Shama never seemed to be empty ... It might have been in one or both of these publications that I read that ...

Shama got a lot of physical exercise playing "puppy in the middle" with DH and me. Here's a description of what we should have done.

1. Both humans have treats.
2. Humans stand or sit apart.
3. Human A calls puppy (saying name only one time to avoid overuse of name).
4. Human B turns away from puppy if puppy doesn't immediately go to Human A.
5. When Puppy reaches Human A, Human A praises gently and takes ahold of puppy's collar before giving treat.
6. Human A slowly but steadily praises and gives treats until Human B calls puppy.
7. Human A turns away from puppy if puppy doesn't immediately go to Human B.
8. Etc.

This builds value for coming when called. BTW, make sure that puppy always gets praise and treats and toys for coming when called. If you want to do anything the puppy could consider unpleasant like grooming, go get the puppy rather than calling him/her to you. (We didn't originally grab collar and continue treating until the other called. Shama ended up racing between us on her terms. Now we control the situation better.)

Also, consider mental exercise for your puppy. We picked up a mini muffin pan for a quarter at a garage sale and occasionally hide treats in four or so muffin openings. We cover all the openings with balls and toys so she has to sniff out the treats.

Hopefully, you'll figure out quickly what your puppy does when s/he needs to go potty, and you'll be able to get him/her to the training tray in time ...


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Be careful what you use under your setup because not all plastic is pee proof. It might not leak through, but some plastic materials do hang on to the pee smell. Vinyl flooring is a good idea, or something disposable. 

Once your puppy is potty trained, you can determine what to set up on the floor long term. I added a second potty tray on top of carpet and never had any pee or overspray outside of it, but the key is he already knew how to use it. I originally considered placing it on top of a large boot tray, but it was snow season and I was fixated on this copper boot tray that matched some other things in the room, and it was out of stock. When the litter box was delivered and I went ahead and just set it up on carpet. He’d already been using one downstairs, but he had a couple accidents in the morning because he couldn’t hold it to get all of the way downstairs. The first morning it was there, he ran right to it, sniffed the pellets, and peed like he’d been holding it for 3 days, lol. I double checked with a black light a few times to make sure there wasn’t any overspray. The main potty tray (where he learned to use it) was downstairs on the hard floor, so there wasn’t any concern about something lining the ex pen. 

You can use a crate or a bed in the expen, it depends on if you’re crate training. I used a crate in the very beginning but switched to a bed for a few reasons unique to our circumstances. We did keep the crate for a while and he was socialized to it enough for the sake of travel, the vet’s office, etc. but he doesn’t sleep in it and we didn’t use it for potty training. Crate training works, we were just adapting to our situation.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Mama Mills said:


> Wow this has been hugely helpful and informative! Thanks to all for sharing insight. My question is... if there is no room in the xpen for anything other than bed/crate, pee pad, water where does the puppy play and burn off energy? It makes a lot of sense to not grant access to unprotected floors (we have mostly carpet) when they are so small but if it's winter and going outside is limited is it either xpen or being held??


Initially, we had the ex-pen in a family room area where everyone hangs out and we gated off that room. Your puppy will probably be about 8-weeks-old and they initially sleep a lot, tire easily, don't run around a lot and it'll take a few days for Frankie to adjust to a different environment.

You'll introduce Frankie to the ex-pen where he'll have toys, food, water and a potty tray where he'll receive special Treats and Praise. You'll teach him sometimes the ex-pen door will be closed and sometimes it'll be open.

When you have EYES on him the door will be open. You'll play with him and he'll waddle and eventually run around to play and exercise. If you see him squat, Clap Your Hands to startle him to hopefully stop him, pick Frankie up and put him on the potty tray and give a command such as: *Do Your Job* or whatever you come up with. Tiny puppies pee tiny amounts so accidents aren't hard to clean up while fresh.

When out of the ex-pen and after Frankie has played a little while put him back in and wait for him to use the potty. In our case, it didn't take long for Patti to figure out how to return to the ex-pen to the potty tray because the whole family was diligent about having EYES on her.

There will be few accidents and you have to be diligent about watching Frankie. Don't let him out of your sight if he's out of the ex-pen. The room he's kept in should NOT have places where he will be out of sight. After you can trust him in one room area, then proceed to another area of the house.

At one point our whole house was an obstacle course of going through gated room areas. Some people rearrange a room full of furniture. Eventually, that ends and your house returns to normal and you'll end up with a well-mannered dog that you will love and enjoy because he's trustworthy and isn't ruining carpet and furniture.

It's the same issue if you train a dog to go outside only this is quicker and easier. The idea you take a dog out every 2-hours, every hour, every 30 minutes, every 15 minutes is a FAIRY TALE. Because puppies pee all the time. You can take them out and they'll come right back in and squat.

It won't be long before Frankie starts teething and biting. The ex-pen will help save everyone's sanity and tender skin. You'll think that stage will never end...but it will in about 3 to 4 months.

*IT'S EXHAUSTING TO BE A PUPPY MOM.* I have a friend who has always had Golden Retrievers. My friend is up in years and so is his dog. His breeder had a litter of puppies and saved one for him. My friend declined saying...._*Puppies are harder that newborn babies.*_


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

AK Havanese said:


> Once again thanks Mikki & Karen for more detail and pictures. I was going to set up the ex pen with just enough room for crate (toys in crate) and potty tray but maybe I need to expand a little and make room for food & water? I thought that using a crate was important but Karen yours just has a bed. Is that because your dogs are older and trained? Also, looks like neither of you have floor protection under the pens - I feel like I would need something waterproof under the entire pen as mine will be either on carpet or hardwood.
> 
> Also, I think I know what kind of pen you have but Karen can you tell me what type you have?


ABSOLUTELY you need a waterproof floor covering!!! Mine may LOOK like "just floor", but it is a piece of vinyl remnant from Home depot that we keep tolled up in the basement "between puppies", and then put down under the ex-pen! We were just lucky that it was fairly attractive and blended well with our oak hardwood floors!

You can use a crate or a bed. It kind of depends how you will use the pen AND the "creativity" of the puppy.  Kodi slept in his pen at night, so he needed a crate. BUT. Like many puppies, he quickly learned that he could climb on top of the small size crate and use it as an escape route. So, we went to a larger crate attached to the end of his pen. (See below) But this would ONLY work for a puppy who is already totally reliable in using the litter box in their pen. (Age doesn't really factor into it... all of mine were fully capable of this when they came from their breeders. It is a matter of breeder training!) If they are not yet ready for this, you CANNOT give them this much space!!!

When the girls came along, they were sleeping in crates in our bedroom at night, so the expen was only "daytime storage" for them. A bed was all they needed.

I don't think this is the exact brand of mine, but it is similar: Amazon.com : SUNCOO Dog Pen, Heavy Duty Folding Large Metal Dog Fence, Cat Puppy Pet Exercise Playpen, Indoor Outdoor 8/16 Panels 24/32/40 in Anti-Rust Pet Crate Cage Barrier Kennels (8 Panels Black, 24 in) : Pet Supplies

There are pros and cons. It is VERY sturdy, and the puppy can't push it around the way they can the wire ones. OTOH, they are heavier to move, too, and more expensive. The panels are also a little larger, so it takes up more room if you use all the panels. I could only use 6 panels rather than the 8 midwest panels in my diningroom. The BIGGEST problem is the dip between each panel. It was a freak accident, but when Pixel was a puppy, and fortunately, I was standing there, she jumped up to say "hi" and got her paw trapped when it slid down in that space between the panels. She TOTALLY panicked, peed all over herself and bit me (the only time in her life she has bitten anyone!!!) before I could just pick her up to free her. That was all that was necessary... she wasn't REALLY "stuck", she was just pulling in the wrong direction.

Pam King has some of these pens too, and we talked about it right after it happened. After that, we started bridging those gaps with sections of pool noodle, sliced to fit over the space before the puppies were tall enough to reach the top. It's not a HUGE problem, and a short-lived one. The puppy has to be JUST the "wrong" size, and jump up just the wrong way to get a paw trapped, but still... something to keep in mind.Or... get an even taller one! I have a friend who used to breed Beardies. She uses her old 48" tall ones for her Havanese puppies, and, of course, there is NO fear of puppies catching their paws in the top!!! LOL!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Oh, one more thing about Kodi’s arrangement above. This was sailcloth underneath his pen. It was waterproof, but a BAD idea. He could get his sharp baby teeth into it, and pull it up, collapsing the pen on himself. How do I know that?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mama Mills said:


> Wow this has been hugely helpful and informative! Thanks to all for sharing insight. My question is... if there is no room in the xpen for anything other than bed/crate, pee pad, water where does the puppy play and burn off energy? It makes a lot of sense to not grant access to unprotected floors (we have mostly carpet) when they are so small but if it's winter and going outside is limited is it either xpen or being held??


I would assume that your kitchen is tile or some other hard surface? That should be your play place. Or a bathroom. Someplace with a hard surface that can be cleaned. Yes, they need to run around, but EVERY SECOND of "free time" should be RIGHT AFTER you KNOW that they have eliminated, (that is their reward for eliminating) AND MUDT be with EYES ON, ADULT supervision so you can whisk them back to their potty at the first sign that they need to go.

You will STILL have some accidents. But the goal is to have as few as possible, and have them in places that you can clean COMPLETELY, so there is no odor left behind to tempt them to repeat.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Regarding Karen's point about getting an ex-pen that's high enough a Havanese can't jump or crawl over.

The ex-pen in the photo I submitted earlier was 31.5 inches high. I removed a sleeping crate shown in that photo from the pen because she climbed on top of it and I found her on top of the ex-pen trying to climb out. Patti couldn't use the vertical metal bars around the pen as a ladder and it was too tall for her to jump over. Getting rid of the crate solved that problem. _Later I got ride of the plastic sleeping crate because it become too small and she got hot inside it at night._

Patti can jump a 22 inch gate. She did it a number times. She once jump on top of a 3ft kitchen stool because she was motivated to get onto the kitchen counter top. I think Havanese have some cat DNA.

_I know you're needing something else. Just as a reminder to explain my comment ... this includes a photo as a reference of what my ex-pen looked like. You can buy more panels to make the ex-pen wider, longer, square. It can, also, be used as a gate across a entry or large doorway._


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## AK Havanese (Jul 9, 2020)

These all look like some really nice ex-pens. Thanks to all you guys in the lower 48 for subsidizing shipping to Alaska (and Hawaii) which I believe is how we are able to get free Amazon shipping otherwise shipping heavy items or shipping via UPS or FedEx is cost prohibitive or often not even available. Most of our Amazon pkgs come vis USPS:frown2: So I am stuck having to purchase on Amazon (leaves out Pupperton which is really spendy anyway) & amazing how many of the ex-pens are not available right now (Karen's Sunco, Mikki's Richell). Evenflo baby pen and Iris dog pens are available much cheaper & I assume less sturdy but may be the way I have to go.

Just want to mention - several of you have referred to my Frankie coming home as a tiny puppy. All the pups weighed about 6.5oz at birth and weighed 2.2 lbs at 3 weeks. Do you think he is going to still be a tiny puppy?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

AK Havanese said:


> These all look like some really nice ex-pens. Thanks to all you guys in the lower 48 for subsidizing shipping to Alaska (and Hawaii) which I believe is how we are able to get free Amazon shipping otherwise shipping heavy items or shipping via UPS or FedEx is cost prohibitive or often not even available. Most of our Amazon pkgs come vis USPS:frown2: So I am stuck having to purchase on Amazon (leaves out Pupperton which is really spendy anyway) & amazing how many of the ex-pens are not available right now (Karen's Sunco, Mikki's Richell). Evenflo baby pen and Iris dog pens are available much cheaper & I assume less sturdy but may be the way I have to go.
> 
> Just want to mention - several of you have referred to my Frankie coming home as a tiny puppy. All the pups weighed about 6.5oz at birth and weighed 2.2 lbs at 3 weeks. Do you think he is going to still be a tiny puppy?


Iris pens are actually quite sturdy, and LOTS of people use them. I have one of those too, and they are quite handy. I DIDN'T have one when mine were puppies. Pros and cons? They CAN be chewed, but they don't rust. They are VERY light-weight to move around. They are more attractive than most of the wire ones and wipe down easily. They also can't scratch woodwork easily. The biggest down-side for me is the "gate" is practically useless as far as I'm concerned, because a HUMAN can't walk through it. So you'd better get one short enough that you can step over it... which means that if you have a climber or a jumper... you may be zip-tying a cover to the top. 

ALL Havanese puppies are RELATIVELY "tiny puppies".  I don't have weights on mine when they were the ages you have weights for yours. My boy was a BIG boy, so he was not representative. Both of my girls are more "normal" sizes... and both were about 3 1/2 llbs at 8 weeks... Panda a bit more than Pixel was. (and she's still bigger (though not taller) than Pixel)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

... To put "tiny puppy" into perspective... Pixel was so little could WALK THROUGH all our CLOSED baby gates when she first came home! My husband had to go get plexiglass cut to fit all the gates and zip-tie the sheets to the gates to keep her from wandering through them at will! LOL!

It was several weeks before she was big enough that a baby gate was actually an obstacle in her path!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

That is a very normal, middle of the road weight.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Some are fortunate and know exactly what the plan will be for the ex pen and where it will go, or only have one option. I thought I knew, but so many things change! If you purchase an inexpensive wire ex pen to start, you will always find uses for it down the line. Even if you opt for a nicer, heavy ex pen or crate, you may still want to have an additional, inexpensive ex pen that folds up, because it’s much easier to carry up and down stairs or even outside (only part of our yard is fenced). I have a mix of permanent gates, midwest/wire ex pens, and nicer wood expen/barriers in different parts of my house, but that has evolved over time. I do regret investing in a wood crate setup early on in our mudroom because we ended up not crate training and he’s not a fan of the mudroom, which is at the back of the house and away from everyone. 

If my choices were limited to online or Amazon purchases, I would definitely want the most flexible option


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## AK Havanese (Jul 9, 2020)

Tom King said:


> That is a very normal, middle of the road weight.


OMG those videos are adorable. Those pups look like they are already potty trained. How old are they & are they all from one litter? And no grate on the potty trays.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

This Richell pen is available on Amazon, if interested and ships to Alaska. I have this ex-pen along with the other larger one that I used in a small townhome when we went to the mountains.

It has a floor and later if you need a top wire cover one is made for it. It's nice looking. The benefit of wire walls over wood is the puppy won't damage wire when they inevitably nibble on it when cutting teeth.

ShamaMama's ex-pen that is permanently set up is very similar to this. It's the same size. The height is low enough it makes bending over to pick up the dog, food and water bowels, toys, potty tray easy. It's nice looking.

*HAVE YOU CHECKED OUT WAYFAIR?
https://www.wayfair.com/Pupperton--...9-PUPT1012&cid=360316659&adgroupid=9532248006*


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## Ltartof (Sep 17, 2018)

We did not have that much trouble moving from disposable pads to the outside. As mentioned previously, the idea is that there is SOMEWHERE that is appropriate, and some places are not! I agree with others, your winter temps are too cold, and IF there is a problem, i.e. he gets traumatized in some way by the cold, you will have a heck of a time getting him to go outside again. We have a male, and just used XL pad, so even if he squirted a bit, no problem, but then again, he did like to situate himself smack in the middle of the pad.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

AK Havanese said:


> OMG those videos are adorable. Those pups look like they are already potty trained. How old are they & are they all from one litter? And no grate on the potty trays.


I don't know which video you're talking about, and probably wouldn't remember their ages anyway. Some of them have the ages in the video title. I think some of the playing videos may be as early as 5 or 6 weeks. They wouldn't have been let out into a large play area, if they hadn't already developed the habit of going to the box in earlier stages, in smaller areas.

By the time they're 8 weeks old, they have the run of our pretty good sized living area, and don't have accidents. We do have a pack of adults that help by providing a lead for the little ones though.

Regardless of how good they do while they're still here, it all can be thrown away quickly, when they go to their new homes, if their new owners don't fully understand the concept of too much freedom. All we do is give them a good start.

edited to add: until they are close to ten weeks old, and the last week before they go home, they go back into a smaller sleeping pen, when they crash. The last week, we think it's good that they sleep some out on the porch, where they play.

They also have a large play area inside, for when the weather is not suitable for the screened porch, or out in the yard. The inside play area has a fence right next to where the adults have litter boxes available. When the puppies are loose in the house, they will go back into that room, which is behind our living area, to use the boxes that the adults use.

Just because they do that here, does not mean that they can solve a puzzle at their new home. Here, it's all just habit. We nurture those habits. There is no reasoning on their part at an early age.


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## Vartina Ancrum (Oct 10, 2019)

I keep Izzie in my den that opens up to our kitchen. So her free space is from the den to the kitchen and back. Her extra litter box is in between the den and the kitchen just in case she can't make it back to her exercise pen. She does try me by attempting to run through the kitchen to the dining area but I nicely bring her back to our den. She hasn't earned her freedom yet besides there is so much to get into (for instance my long sheers in the dining area ). The wooden chair legs in the dining room look great for teething. It takes a watchful eye to protect a curious puppy. No potty accidents yet though just fun stuff to get into. When I allow her in other rooms she is tethered to me.


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## Mama Mills (Jul 5, 2020)

Iris pens are actually quite sturdy, and LOTS of people use them. I have one of those too, and they are quite handy. I DIDN'T have one when mine were puppies. Pros and cons? They CAN be chewed, but they don't rust. They are VERY light-weight to move around. They are more attractive than most of the wire ones and wipe down easily. They also can't scratch woodwork easily. The biggest down-side for me is the "gate" is practically useless as far as I'm concerned, because a HUMAN can't walk through it. So you'd better get one short enough that you can step over it... which means that if you have a climber or a jumper... you may be zip-tying a cover to the top.









I had read on amazon reviews that the pins between the panels come out easily so you can get in and out. This seems a bit awkward to me though. I'm debating between an iris and Midwest wire pen but the iris pens seem a bit safer for puppy.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mama Mills said:


> I had read on amazon reviews that the pins between the panels come out easily so you can get in and out. This seems a bit awkward to me though. I'm debating between an iris and Midwest wire pen but the iris pens seem a bit safer for puppy.


Yes, the pin does come out easily, but if you want to step in without letting the puppy out...

I'm not sure that there is anything particularly unsafe about the Midwest as long as you set it up in a way thatthe puppy can't collapse it.


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## AK Havanese (Jul 9, 2020)

Thanks to all the great members here I think I have plenty of good info on the ex pen issue. 

Have been looking at many of the old posts on other threads regarding wood pellets. The only wood pellets we have available locally are spruce pellets. They are made locally with no additives and a softwood like pine. Anyone familiar with these or have an opinion?

Also, my breeder starts her pups on a park potty with synthetic grass which I do not want to use. Does it seem reasonable to give them access and try to encourage them on a litter box with wood pellets as soon as I get him home?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

AK Havanese said:


> Thanks to all the great members here I think I have plenty of good info on the ex pen issue.
> 
> Have been looking at many of the old posts on other threads regarding wood pellets. The only wood pellets we have available locally are spruce pellets. They are made locally with no additives and a softwood like pine. Anyone familiar with these or have an opinion?
> 
> Also, my breeder starts her pups on a park potty with synthetic grass which I do not want to use. Does it seem reasonable to give them access and try to encourage them on a litter box with wood pellets as soon as I get him home?


The spruce pellets should be fine.

Most puppies take to pellets quite quickly. What you might want to do is to ask your breeder to allow the puppies to pee on a pee pad for you (it's unlikely that she doesn't have a few around!) right before you bring him home. To start with, put that pee pad with the pee on it underneath the pellets, so he can smell the pee and he will catch right on.

If that's absolutely not possible, make his pen so small that he only has room for his bed and his litter box. He SHOULD know enough not to potty in his bed, so he WILL use the litter box. You can make this even more likely if the litter box is between his bed and you, so that when he wakes up, and comes toward you, he automatically ends up in the litter box. You don't take him out until he potties, and you praise him and give him treats for going on his litter box! He will catch on fast!!!


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## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

We purchased the Iris play pen prior to seeing the fabulous setups you all have here on the forum.


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## AK Havanese (Jul 9, 2020)

OK time to put all your helpful ideas to work. Just brought our little peeing machine home Friday. He did pretty well on the 8 hour drive home. So meet Frankie.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

He's definitely a Keeper. LOL!! PEEING MACHINES is a good description.


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

I don’t know what is cuter- Frankie’s eyebrows or that white hair on top of his head! Adorable!


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

When I was indoor-housebreaking Patti I switched potty trays and methods as I learned more. Each time I switched to something new I took a towel and soaked up pee and then rubbed it onto the new tray. Or put pellets that have been peed into the new tray. Or used a dirty pee pad. Patti instinctively used the potty tray. Reinforced by: Treats! for Pee! Treats! for Poop!


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## Mama Mills (Jul 5, 2020)

He couldn’t be cuter!!! It’ll be fun to see if his coat change 🙂


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Frankie is a doll!


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Love him! Thanks for posting the photos! Looking forward to more updates! Hope you will consider attending the virtual play date!


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## AK Havanese (Jul 9, 2020)

Mikki said:


> When I was indoor-housebreaking Patti I switched potty trays and methods as I learned more. Each time I switched to something new I took a towel and soaked up pee and then rubbed it onto the new tray. Or put pellets that have been peed into the new tray. Or used a dirty pee pad. Patti instinctively used the potty tray. Reinforced by: Treats! for Pee! Treats! for Poop!


So we started treats for pee & treats for poo. Oh my gosh, he wants to constantly pee in his tray. He now gets a tiny treat for a teaspoon of pee. LOL


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

AK Havanese said:


> So we started treats for pee & treats for poo. Oh my gosh, he wants to constantly pee in his tray. He now gets a tiny treat for a teaspoon of pee. LOL


*LOL!!!* I've said it Before and will Say It Again .... These smart little Havanese Train Themselves if given the right opportunity.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

AK Havanese said:


> So we started treats for pee & treats for poo. Oh my gosh, he wants to constantly pee in his tray. He now gets a tiny treat for a teaspoon of pee. LOL


Yeah, that can quickly get out of hand. If you are having a REAL problem. treats can get things started in the right direction. But once they get the idea, start to fade treats to once in a while, with just TONS of praise. Do NOT let them get the idea that they are ALWAYS going to get a treat or you will create a different problem!


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

Here is a nice litter box on Amazon. The grate is high enough so that you can put pellets underneath. The one low corner for entry is a nifty idea.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0797GCF9N/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I have “a variation” of this (according to Amazon) in navy. It’s the same brand and shipped from the same company overseas but the low part isn’t offset. My house is long and narrow and I needed a potty tray on the other side of the second story from the master, where there is only carpet. I wanted the higher walls in case there was overspray. Some boys do seem to splash a bit more or pee in different positions so I could see the side walls being helpful, but it turns out mine is so neat about peeing I didn’t need to worry so much. I do like this tray, I think it’s good quality. It has been kicked around a bit and is pretty sturdy, and the fact that the grate stays stuck down is really useful because it was moved around in the loft for vacuuming, etc. It is really a great secondary potty tray. I wouldn’t want it permanently in my main living area, but that’s because there isn’t really a place out of the way I could have it long term, and it’s a bit bulky, more like a large cat litter box. I’d be fine with it in an ex pen or behind a sofa or chair, someplace out of the way. It’s a great design for a corner to protect the walls. I just have a small, square room I’m working with, and there isn’t anyplace like that. I love the ugodog downstairs because it’s low profile and blends in with the floor. However, even before covid it was no longer available here, and the selection of potty trays seems even more limited now. I do like the dark colors on our darker floor, compared to some of the bright colored potty trays. I bet the pink would look good on a light floor. 

I’ll admit, my priorities might be a little off  I also bought this tray when my puppy was already litter trained.


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## Dexter and Reia’s mom (Feb 20, 2020)

I have this same litter box and was great when Reia was a puppy. Now that she’s 8 months (and appears to be done growing) and is 9 1/2 pounds, it’s too small. She’s forgotten to “circle” when she pees and can’t stand completely in this box so she ends up peeing on the floor with her front feet at one end of the box. But it’s very sturdy and good looking for a litter box😉


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

morriscsps said:


> Here is a nice litter box on Amazon. The grate is high enough so that you can put pellets underneath. The one low corner for entry is a nifty idea.
> 
> https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0797GCF9N/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


I looked at this, but IMO, it is too small for any but the very smallest Havanese, though...


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

krandall said:


> I looked at this, but IMO, it is too small for any but the very smallest Havanese, though...


I can definitely see that a larger potty tray would give more room for success in an expen for a new puppy. My Havanese isn't particularly small but took to the indoor potty downstairs right away (which is much larger) before I added this upstairs. However, he is also very precise in where he likes to pee! I don't remember when he was fully grown, but it does seem like he used this one less before he stopped seeking out the potty trays. I assumed it's because we don't spend as much time upstairs but maybe he preferred the larger one. He didn't have accidents, but he started waiting by the back door instead of using them, and that was around a year and a half, maybe older. I really regretted that in the winter. We did have a bell he briefly learned to ring but it fell down and he started waiting next to the empty hook! I thought about bell training again so I can hear it upstairs in a pinch but he always follows me upstairs anyway, and if he needs to go he'll herd me down to the back door. I still have the ugodog downstairs because even though he doesn't seek it out on his own, if I put him on it and tell him to go potty he will, which is nice in a storm. It's almost twice as big.

It would be sad if a puppy didn't do as well with this tray and it was the only one, because the owner might think indoor potty training isn't working. I do like it, but if I was doing it again I think I would still use it as a secondary potty. The same company does make other trays, so I'd definitely look into those considering the good quality.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Besides not being able to get the whole body on a too-small box, many dogs "circle" before they poop. We had a problem for a while as Kodi was growing where we we finding poo near, but not IN the litter box. We watched him and realized it was because he would go to the litter box, start his "potty circle", but he was too big to stay on the box and complete his circle. So when the time was right, if he wasn't on the box when the urge it, that was where he'd stop anyway. 

We got a big enough box that he could complete the whole "circle" on the box and he didn't have another accident. Again, now that he is fully adult, first, I don't think he ever poops inside if there is ANY other option, but if he does, he is VERY precise about his aim. but during the learning phase, size definitely made a difference!


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Dexter and Reia's mom said:


> I have this same litter box and was great when Reia was a puppy. Now that she's 8 months (and appears to be done growing) and is 9 1/2 pounds, it's too small. She's forgotten to "circle" when she pees and can't stand completely in this box so she ends up peeing on the floor with her front feet at one end of the box. But it's very sturdy and good looking for a litter box&#128521;


Huh! DONE Growing at 8 months. Not So Fast. :grin2:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> Huh! DONE Growing at 8 months. Not So Fast. :grin2:


I wouldn't be surprised if she is... Her auntie and her mom were both done at that age.  They filled out a bit, but Pixel still hovers just under 10 lbs most of the time and hasn't increased in height.


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## Dexter and Reia’s mom (Feb 20, 2020)

Reia also had issues with her “poop circling”😂. And before she started going potty outside, she seemed to be able to fit her body in the box to pee, but now that she potties outside where she can stretch out, she doesn’t seem to know how NOT to stretch out. I have a few larger litter boxes that I’ll use when the puppy comes so I’m hoping Reia will use his. I can’t tell you how many times Ive wished Dexter would have been indoor trained!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Another reason I wouldn’t have noticed if the box was a bit too small, is mine rarely pooped on the indoor potty, and the times he did were always downstairs on the bigger one because of our schedule. 

I seem to remember it was on the expensive side. I’m not sure I’d want to spend that much on a potty that would likely be outgrown. 

Maybe more sizes will be available in the future.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dexter and Reia's mom said:


> Reia also had issues with her "poop circling"&#128514;. And before she started going potty outside, she seemed to be able to fit her body in the box to pee, but now that she potties outside where she can stretch out, she doesn't seem to know how NOT to stretch out. I have a few larger litter boxes that I'll use when the puppy comes so I'm hoping Reia will use his. I can't tell you how many times Ive wished Dexter would have been indoor trained!


I haven't met a SINGLE person who wishes their dog WASN'T indoor potty trained.  I know SO many who have a younger, indoor trained one, and would KILL for being able to get their older one to do it too...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Another reason I wouldn't have noticed if the box was a bit too small, is mine rarely pooped on the indoor potty, and the times he did were always downstairs on the bigger one because of our schedule.
> 
> I seem to remember it was on the expensive side. I'm not sure I'd want to spend that much on a potty that would likely be outgrown.
> 
> Maybe more sizes will be available in the future.


That's true, my Rascal Dogs, which are the biggest ones, and no longer available, were quite expensive. I still think they were worth every penny. I wish they were still available!


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