# Invisible Fences... I totally agree



## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

This article hit the nail on the head for me with invisible fences. My neighbor has one for her JRT and I think it makes him even more crazy. Here's a good read.

http://notesfromadogwalker.com/


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Not only do they make dogs crazy, but they are absolute death traps for small dogs who can't get OUT if a large dog or coyote comes IN to attack them. Nuts.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Well they don't work well on all dogs. My neighbor has a beagle with the invisible fence and it works fine. Some small dogs are scared to death by the shock and run through the field and then can't get back in their yard. Now I am going to put an electric wire over my fence at my back door. The ES Buck has found the ledge around the bricks and boasts himself up to see over the fence. He is not strong enough yet to come on over but will be soon, so a wire there will keep him out of the road and run over by a car and he is pretty smart, don't think he will get shocked more than twice. And the wire will keep out any coyotes that want inside the fence.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I'm not a fan....that's why I have wood and vinyl....


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## Lola :) (Nov 20, 2012)

I can't stand the invisible fences and don't understand why people get them for their dogs! The prongs alone that are attached to the invisible fence collar and stick into the dog's neck are a whole other issue. My next door neighbors have two dogs who bark all the time, and of course, have an invisible fence. Whenever Lola and I walk by (or anyone else for that matter), they bark non-stop. Another issue is when the electricity goes out! During Hurricane Sandy, our street lost power and my neighbor's dogs fled. Luckily they came back but still not a safe situation.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I think the only good way to use them is as Lucile does... As a reinforcement or back-up for a real fence.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Thank you Karen. I have only used the electric (low voltage for dogs) as a way to keep the lab from going over the fence and now I am going to have to put up just the one wire over the short part of my fence between the house and garage. For some reason the contractor made this part of the fence a foot shorter than the rest. Maybe he thought I would like to be able to see into the back yard anyway once Buck found the brick ledge around the foundation, he realized that he could step up and see over the fence. My old guard dog did the same thing but was professionally trained not to go over the fence unless I or mine (grandchildren) were threatened. I don't think that Buck will ever be able to go over the rest of the fence and the lab and my guard dog could. I don't think he will get that big and strong. Anyway, I know that a dog will escape if he can and there is a busy highway in front. My dh (stands for dumb husband) left the gate open when my son was in Iraq and we were keeping his dog. He ran right out in the road and was killed. So I may be overly protective, but I try to keep them as safe as I would a child. The electric fence gives an alternating current so that it might not shock every time, but if grabbed, it will shock. I used to have one around my chicken yard years ago and the old guard dog got on it by accident and never went near that fence again. In fact I just put up the posts around my new shrubs that he was digging up and he would not cross through the line of posts.

The little head sticking up next to the house is Buck. The other is Rosie and Buck. I will be glad when her hair grows back.


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

Our town refused to give us permission to put up a real fence. We have wetlands on our property and the fence would be next to it. Sometimes you don't have a choice.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Luciledodd said:


> Thank you Karen. I have only used the electric (low voltage for dogs) as a way to keep the lab from going over the fence and now I am going to have to put up just the one wire over the short part of my fence between the house and garage. For some reason the contractor made this part of the fence a foot shorter than the rest. Maybe he thought I would like to be able to see into the back yard anyway once Buck found the brick ledge around the foundation, he realized that he could step up and see over the fence. My old guard dog did the same thing but was professionally trained not to go over the fence unless I or mine (grandchildren) were threatened. I don't think that Buck will ever be able to go over the rest of the fence and the lab and my guard dog could. I don't think he will get that big and strong. Anyway, I know that a dog will escape if he can and there is a busy highway in front. My dh (stands for dumb husband) left the gate open when my son was in Iraq and we were keeping his dog. He ran right out in the road and was killed. So I may be overly protective, but I try to keep them as safe as I would a child. The electric fence gives an alternating current so that it might not shock every time, but if grabbed, it will shock. I used to have one around my chicken yard years ago and the old guard dog got on it by accident and never went near that fence again. In fact I just put up the posts around my new shrubs that he was digging up and he would not cross through the line of posts.
> 
> The little head sticking up next to the house is Buck. The other is Rosie and Buck. I will be glad when her hair grows back.


That face looking over is a riot! Yeah, he looks like he'd find a way! It sound like your electric fence is the same or similar to what we use for horses... Again, not as a single means of containment, but to keep them off the fence line. (Not only to keep them in, but because horses destroy fences!!!). So it's the wire itself that carries the charge, not a collar on the animal, right? That 's the way the horse ones work.

Oh, and I got each of my brothers with the fence, just once, by getting thm to throw a buckwt of water at it!:laugh:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

morriscsps said:


> Our town refused to give us permission to put up a real fence. We have wetlands on our property and the fence would be next to it. Sometimes you don't have a choice.


Sometimes you have to make compromises when you don't have an alternative. But I bet that means you have to watch them a lot more carefully... Especially Jack, who is Coyote bait size.

Our yard isn't fenced at all, but we are WAY away from the road, and on 5+ acres. Kodi is always supervised outside, and has a very good recall, and he is still always on leash after dark.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Karen, my son in law sells all kinds of electric fences. Yes what I am talking about if just like what you use for horses and cattle. We have raised 4 calves back behind the house on a couple of acres with just two strands of wire and a really good charger with a heavier shock than what I use on a dog. Also mostly the cows will get a shock on the side or the top of their heads if they stick the head through. We kept the wire down lower so they would try to reach over. Did't take anytime for them to learn where the boundary was and after a while, the fence could be down due to power or a limb falling on it and they still would not cross. I have a small solar powered charger for putting around my house and that is what we will use for Buck. As kids, (being country kids) we would dare each other to touch the fence. And, all of my grandchildren have touched the electric fence--some more than others. lol.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

dangerous in many ways.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Dave do you mean the kids touching the fence or the fence itself. Touching the electric fence is not near as dangerous (actually not dangerous at all) as us kids jumping out of the barn loft or climbing trees and the bigger cousins trying to shake us off of the limb we were on, or making me ride behind my cousin on a trotting horse and her trying to push me off. Taught us all to hang on, not give up and to try and roll when you hit the ground.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

no Lucile, I'm not refering to your story, just dog efences in general.


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## Ewokpup (Nov 3, 2012)

My parents' old neighborhood and a smallish dog who had an invisible fence in the front yard. Well, one day Sparkle got too excited (or maybe the fence was turned off for some reason), because she ran right out of the yard to bark at Miss Yorkie. Miss Yorkie was not a happy camper-she had learned that for some reason Sparkle magically stayed in her yard and was not going to come chase her...but that certainly changed that one day.


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## Ewokpup (Nov 3, 2012)

morriscsps said:


> Our town refused to give us permission to put up a real fence. We have wetlands on our property and the fence would be next to it. Sometimes you don't have a choice.


What about those gates that stand on their own without having to go into the ground or brace against a wall---could you make a small area with those? or maybe a giant ex-pen?


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

We have an evil invisible fence. It works for us. It isn't perfect but you have to do what you have to do.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

Invisible fences are no different than any other tool:

1. You (and your pet) need to be properly trained in their operation.
2. Invisible fences should not be used for purposes for which they are not designed:
a. Protection from outside predators
b. Large and aggressive dogs
c. In place of supervision

As it relates to the story from the Original Poster: If you own a large and aggressive dog that if given an opportunity will kill another dog, then it is the owner's responsibility to know that an invisible fence is an inapproriate application for their pet.

Invisible fence or not, a small dog such as a Havanese, will not be able to outrun a coyote or predatory dog.

A "real" physical fence is best, but an invisible fence is better than no fence at all if you live in a populated area with alot of traffic, as long as you still supervise you pet.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> A "real" physical fence is best, but an invisible fence is better than no fence at all if you live in a populated area with alot of traffic, as long as you still supervise you pet.


The trouble is that I have never, EVER seen anyone "supervising" a dog behind an invisible fence. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, and people who DO use them appropriately. But After years of riding my horses and walking my dog in a suburban setting, all I ever see is dogs (often big ones) charging straight toward my horse (until the dog hits the end of their "safe" zone, but the HORSE doesn't know that!) or charging back and forth along the invisible fence line barking themselves into a lather.

... Or conversely, I have many times returned dogs to neighbors at the end of the day who have ended up on my farm because the owners leave the dogs out all day with only an invisible fence to contain them, while they are away for 10-12 hours at work. The electricity goes off, the batteries in the collar run down, or the dog just chases a rabbit through the fence, then can't go back into his yard because he keeps getting shocked. Some of these dogs I have had to call the dog officer about, because I haven't known where they came from. In most cases, even without tags, they are well known to the dog officer, being "repeat offenders". I have extra stalls, so if I know who the dogs belongs to, and they're friendly dogs, I them up with a bowl of water so they are at least safe until the end of the day, then escort them home to have another friendly talk with the owner.

Again, I am sure there are a FEW people who use these "tools" appropriately. But the vast majority do not.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

krandall said:


> ... I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, and people who DO use them appropriately. ...
> 
> ... Again, I am sure there are a FEW people who use these "tools" appropriately. But the vast majority do not.


It's easy to assume that because proper use is neither news worthy nor apparent, while improper use is easy to notice via escaped dogs or news reports.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> It's easy to assume that because proper use is neither news worthy nor apparent, while improper use is easy to notice via escaped dogs or news reports.


Well, you WOULD see "proper use" if you saw people outside, supervising their off-leash dogs in their yard. You might or might not see the e-collar, but the people and dog would be present at the same time, and the dog wouldn't be running the line, acting like a lunatic. This is something I rarely see. In fact, I can only think of a single time I've seen it used that way... by a person with a very well trained Golden, who happened to live on a very busy street. The back yard had real fencing, but the front yard had invisible fence so that the owner could have her dog out front with her, safely, while she worked on her gardens.

Again, I'm sure she isn't the ONLY person to use it appropriately, but I stand by my assertion that this is the exception, not the rule.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

krandall said:


> Well, you WOULD see "proper use" if you saw people outside, supervising their off-leash dogs in their yard. You might or might not see the e-collar, but the people and dog would be present at the same time, and the dog wouldn't be running the line, acting like a lunatic. This is something I rarely see. In fact, I can only think of a single time I've seen it used that way... by a person with a very well trained Golden, who happened to live on a very busy street. The back yard had real fencing, but the front yard had invisible fence so that the owner could have her dog out front with her, safely, while she worked on her gardens.
> 
> Again, I'm sure she isn't the ONLY person to use it appropriately, but I stand by my assertion that this is the exception, not the rule.


Regardless, it still comes down to human error, whether it be the majority or minority.


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

Our neighbor's yellow lab comes to mind. The invisible fence doesn't work for her at all. 

She is terrible. We caught her the other day in another neighbor's garage stealing their kids' baseballs.  No recall. Runs wild in the neighborhood. Thank goodness, Miley is friendly but because she is huge and constantly carries a stick, all the little kids are scared of her.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

morriscsps said:


> Our neighbor's yellow lab comes to mind. The invisible fence doesn't work for her at all.
> 
> She is terrible. We caught her the other day in another neighbor's garage stealing their kids' baseballs.  No recall. Runs wild in the neighborhood. Thank goodness, Miley is friendly but because she is huge and constantly carries a stick, all the little kids are scared of her.


Yeah, a lot of Labs are the doggy equivalent of a tank. "I know it will only hurt for a moment, and there's that GREAT swamp to go wallow in back there!!!" All the ones I know are also "selectively" hard of hearing. Open a cookie bag in the next county, and they come running. CALL them when they are enjoying that wallow in the swamp? Ummmm... Not so much.


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

I could never own a lab. Their bullheadedness and my expectations would conflict. 

I worry about Miley constantly. Luckily, her people do try to supervisor her when she is outside. It is when the kids let her out and don't tell the parents that Miley goes on walkabout.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

morriscsps said:


> I could never own a lab. Their bullheadedness and my expectations would conflict.
> 
> I worry about Miley constantly. Luckily, her people do try to supervisor her when she is outside. It is when the kids let her out and don't tell the parents that Miley goes on walkabout.


That's why my position is that an invisible fence is better than no fence at all; because for every story of dogs running through the invisible fence, there are even more stories of dogs getting out when company comes over, or sneaking out the garage, leash breaks, owner drops the leash - etc.

Most if not every dog that is not confined by a physical fence has gotten away.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> That's why my position is that an invisible fence is better than no fence at all; because for every story of dogs running through the invisible fence, there are even more stories of dogs getting out when company comes over, or sneaking out the garage, leash breaks, owner drops the leash - etc.
> 
> Most if not every dog that is not confined by a physical fence has gotten away.


I guess my position is that that's a really good reason to put a really strong recall on your dog. A dog that is REALLY in control, even in the open, is a dog who is safe. That, BTW, was a big point Ian Dunbar made in his seminar.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

krandall said:


> I guess my position is that that's a really good reason to put a really strong recall on your dog. A dog that is REALLY in control, even in the open, is a dog who is safe. That, BTW, was a big point Ian Dunbar made in his seminar.


I agree, and a strong recall is necessary whether you have a physical fence, no fence or an invisible fence.

The story is written to illicit an emotional response, and it is slanted by comparing the weaknesses of an invisible fence to the strengths of either a physical fence or no fence depending upon which comparison "proves" the author's point.

The story discusses how an invisible fence drives the occupant crazy, and it "proves" this point by describing how a dog will run up and down the invisible line barking at every passerby. However, this same behavior can be seen with tethered dogs or dogs behind chain link and picket fences.

The story discusses how dogs can escape an invisible fence when the batteries die, the electricity goes out or by taking the jolt. Dogs escape a physical fence when the gate is left open, by digging under it or jumping over it. Dogs escape houses with no fence when someone comes in the front door and the dog bolts. Kids often accidentally let dogs free.

The story discusses how a dog can't get back through an invisible fence. The same is true of a physical fence. A dog with a strong recall will come home, but it's up to the owner to let the dog back through either a physical fence or an invisible fence. Just like an owner can leave the gate open to allow the dog back an in, an owner can turn off an invisible fence. If the collar doesn't beep, the dog will come through.

The story discusses how an invisible fence doesn't keep predators out, but neither does the no fence option. I see numerous unsupervised tethered dogs in open yards.

There is no "one size fits all" or universally acceptable answer. Each option (physical fence, invisible fence, no fence) has different strengths and weaknesses or plusses and minuses depending upon each set of variables:

1.	Breed
2.	House size
3.	Yard size
4.	Owner participation
5.	Location
a.	Rural, suburb, city
b.	Proximity to neighbors
c.	Surrounding animals - pets, prey & predators
d.	Ordinances
6.	Proper installation & maintenance - physical or invisible fences

It all comes down to a choice between "Rock/Paper/Scissors" where the best option depends upon each individual circumstance.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

here's some research that mentions a couple of problems with shock equipment from IPDTA . In my opinion a dog should not be left unattended outside at all. It's an accident waiting to happen. 

Drawbacks, Risks and Warnings of shock devices

4.1.
Physical

The electric shock emitted causes an unpleasant sensation with a high potential for causingpain and/or physical 

injury.
?
Even low levels of shock have been known to cause irritation, infection and burns.

?
With invisible fence system a dog may be injured by animals or people crossing the

boundary and entering the dog’s territory rendering the dog cornered.

?
Because the shock itself is an electrical charge it can affect the central nervous system of thedog.

?
Dogs prone to heart problems could experience complications due to this electrical charge.

?With the invisible fence system dogs who escape the territory are in danger of being hit bycars and other 

environmental dangers.

?Since dogs have a higher level of saline in their systems than do humans, the effects of shock will be more severe 

on a dog than that felt by a human


4.2.

Behavioural


Shock equipment has been known to cause fear, submission, aggression, stress, depressionand avoidance behaviours.


During a study of the behavioural effects of shock equipment, dogs have responded by

“lowering their ear and tail positions, giving high sounding yelps, flicking their tongues,

squealing, displaying avoidance behaviour, and occasionally exhibiting redirectedaggression. These responses suggest 

that the shocks are painful, because these behaviours

are associated with pain, fear and stress in dogs.”

The anxiety caused by the shock can increase aggressive behaviour, the severity andfrequency of aggressive episodes.

With the invisible fence system, if the dog crosses the boundary it is unlikely to re-enter theterritory for fear 

of being shocked, hence the dog is trapped outside of the boundary.

Some dogs learn that if they run back and forth across the barrier, they can wear out thebatteries.


4.3.



Psychological


Unwanted associations may be created if the dog pairs up the unpleasant experience withsomeone or something in the 

environment at the moment it is shocked. For example; if thedog is focused on a child when shocked, it may create an 

unpleasant association withchildren. This association can cause fear of the child which could lead to fear 

aggression.


The unpleasant experience can create fear and distrust of the handler.


The unpleasant experience can create fear and distrust of anyone or anything in theenvironment.


In order to effectively stop an unwanted behaviour with as few shocks as possible, the dog’s
temperament and level of sensitivity must be known. Since there is no way to know howsensitive the dog is to shock 

without shocking it, the risk of making a mistake is high. If youstart too high and work your way down you can 

create fear and/or aggression, if you starttoo low and work your way up you can desensitize the dog to the shock 

and/or causehabituation; that is the ability to stop reacting to meaningless stimuli through repeatexposure. When 

this happens you will require higher and higher levels of intensity to stopthe unwanted behaviour.

Therefore, finding the correct intensity of shock risks causing pain, physical harm, damaging
the dog’s temperament, and/or creating new behaviour problems.

The unpleasant experience can cause stress, anxiety, and/or depression, leading to otherbehaviour issues and/or the 

inability to learn.


With an invisible fence system a dog may be traumatized by animals or people crossing the
boundary and entering the dog’s territory

4.4.
Mechanical

Equipment has been know to malfunction and remain stuck in shock mode.

Equipment has been known to malfunction delivering high voltage shocks.

Equipment has been known to be triggered by electrical signals such as; ham radios, radiotransmitters, televisions, 

cell phones, microwaves, power surges, other remote productsand
by sounds such as barking dogs, vibrations, the dog’s own ID tags and other noises.

Power surges can cause the collar to malfunction and cause a severe shock.

Dogs wearing shock equipment during a thunder storm can be electrocuted if lightening hitsthe wet ground.


Inconsistent current may occur from low batteries.


Some collars have only one setting of duration of shock.

Inexpensive collars are more likely to malfunction and not activate consistently, and maydeliver inconsistent shock 

intensity.


Some collars have an inbuilt ability to automatically increase the shock level if the dogcontinues to bark. This in 

itself is abusive,


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

I certainly understand IPDTA's (International Positive Dog Training Association) aversion to products such as the Invisible Fence, especially since they (Invisible Fences) are the opposite of Positive Training. 

The Invisible Fence has been approved or endorsed by:

Ontario Veterinary Medical Association
ASPCA - American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals
The Humane Society

Also, before I purchased the system, I discussed it with my veterinarian who uses it for her dogs.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> I certainly understand IPDTA's (International Positive Dog Training Association) aversion to products such as the Invisible Fence, especially since they (Invisible Fences) are the opposite of Positive Training.
> 
> The Invisible Fence has been approved or endorsed by:
> 
> ...


Why would you use something that is contrary to positive training. ? This is from ASPCA "Electronic collars can be effective when used in appropriate circumstances, but we would never recommend their use without guidance from a behaviorist or CCPDT-certified dog trainer experienced with electronic training products. Any form of punishment can induce trauma in sensitive dogs" .

Nearly all our trainers won't touch them with a ten foot pole. And they are especially well trained. If your vet is not a certified applied veteranary behaviorist, she's probably not qualified.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> Why would you use something that is contrary to positive training. ? This is from ASPCA "Electronic collars can be effective when used in appropriate circumstances, but we would never recommend their use without guidance from a behaviorist or CCPDT-certified dog trainer experienced with electronic training products. Any form of punishment can induce trauma in sensitive dogs" .
> 
> Nearly all our trainers won't touch them with a ten foot pole. And they are especially well trained. If your vet is not a certified applied veteranary behaviorist, she's probably not qualified.


The origin of this thread started with a discussion about the Invisible Fence. The tone of the discussion implies that Invisible Fences are cruel and abusive to dogs, and that reputable organizations and qualified trainers are summarily against their use. The arguments are presented as facts as opposed to opinions, as if we're discussing whether the Earth revolves around the sun and whether or not it's round. Your second post explicitly states


davetgabby said:


> If your vet is not a certified applied veteranary behaviorist, she's probably not qualified.


, as if anyone who uses the Invisible Fence is somehow not qualified.

I read with interest the research you posted and noticed the conclusions seemed to apply equally to all shock training devices, regardless of whether or not they were professionally installed or DYI, regardless of whether or not they were used by certified trainers or individuals. It made me wonder if testing was stratified by type of electrical device (Containment vs Behavior), manufacturer (Invisible Fence vs ProStop), training (professional vs self) and installation (professional vs DIY). Do you know if the test groups were stratified? Was there a control group? Was the study "double blind"?

Invisible Fences are far from the evil that is being presented. Owners that use them don't love their pets any less, aren't uneducated or ill informed and don't neglect their pets than any other owners.

Organizations like the ASPCA wouldn't give the Invisible Fence their Seal of Approval, Vets wouldn't use them and the Humane Society wouldn't accept their use if it was abusive or inhumane.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

you\re missing the point . Answer my first question. They are considered positive punishement and come with many risks.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> youre missing the point .


If I'm missing the point, then let's go back to the beginning and take it one step at a time.

I made the following in point:


Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> There is no "one size fits all" or universally acceptable answer. Each option (physical fence, invisible fence, no fence) has different strengths and weaknesses or plusses and minuses depending upon each set of variables:
> 
> 1.	Breed
> 2.	House size
> ...


Immediately following that post, you posted the research detailing all the negatives and draw backs of the Invisible Fence. Taken verbatim and at face value, the research you posted appeared definitive and conclusive. If taken verbatim and at face value, there is only one conclusion a reasonable person could make:

At best, Invisible Fences are harmful and irresponsible, and at worst, they are abusive.

If that wasn't the conclusion we were suppose to reach, then please clarify?


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

"At best, Invisible Fences are harmful and irresponsible, and at worst, they are abusive.If that wasn't the conclusion we were suppose to reach, then please clarify?"

I would say they have a high potential for being all of those things. And especially risky for a young pup. I don't mean to scare you but look up my thread on "predatory drift". http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=12185&highlight=Predatory+Drift


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> "At best, Invisible Fences are harmful and irresponsible, and at worst, they are abusive.If that wasn't the conclusion we were suppose to reach, then please clarify?"
> 
> I would say they have a high potential for being all of those things. And especially risky for a young pup. I don't mean to scare you but look up my thread on "predatory drift". http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=12185&highlight=Predatory+Drift


I thought that was the point you were trying to make. My objection is that I find the research you posted far from complete and definitive and don't take it at face value. At the bare minimum, it is inappropriate to lump all the devices in one category and reach the same conclusion for each. The way the research and conclusions are presented, it seems highly unlikely that there was any stratification as to the different devices, purposes of the devices or training methods.

I questioned everything I was told during my research. I interviewed several electronic containment companies, questioned Vets and found the following endorsement and recommendations for the original Invisible Fence:

1. The ASPCA Seal of Approval
2. Was endorsed by the Ontario Veterinary Medical Association

The other reasons I chose the original Invisible Fence is because of their professional training and the fact that because of their philosophy, they secure their equipment so the owner can NOT change the setting. The professional trainers decide when the dog is ready, will recommend additional training if needed, determine the amount of correction and don't allow the owners to change it.

Subsequent to my purchase and as a direct result of this thread, I contacted a training facility in our area. I asked about the Invisible Fence, and they had no problem with it's use. The owner's Bio follows.

CPDT-KA

Education and Certifications:
August 2012 Re-certification by CCPDT 50 hours Continuing Education

May 25, 2012 Working with Fearful and Reactive Dogs - Suzanne Clothier Seminar

May 4-6, 2012 - A Scientific Presentation and Study of Working Dogs - University of Guelph, Canada - Dr. William S. Helton, Ph.D., Dr. Andrew Luescher, DVM, Ph.D., Dr. Alan Beck, Sc.D., Dr. Alexander Ferworn, CD, Ph.D., Dr. Megan Parker, Ph.D.

February 23-26,2012 - Midwest Veterinary Conference - Columbus, Ohio, 21 CEU Animal Behavior Courses by: Suzanne Hetts, PhD., Ilana Reiner, Ph.D., Lore Haug, DVM, M.S., DACVECC, DACVIM, Sheila d'Arpino, DVM, DACVB

Science-Based Dog Training, November 21st 2010, Dr. Ian Dunbar

June 14th 2009 Dog Behavior, Medicine and Training, St. Huberts, Dr. Nick Dodman, Dr. Ian Dunbar

October 2008, Completed 32 Continuing Educational Credits

July 1st 2006 Re-certification by CCPDT 50 hours Continuing Education

March 19th 2005 Canine Language, Communication & Aggression Dr. John Wright, DVM

September 10 - 14, 2003 18 hours CEUs Six Aggression Cases, Karen Overall, MA, Ph.D.

May 3-5, 2002 Center for Applied Animal Behavior "Dr. Ian Dunbar, CEO, CAAB Inc. BSc, BVetMed, MRCVS, PhD, CPDT Doggy Behavior & Training Course"

November 12, 1998 Fifth Annual Educational Conference "Diagnosing and Treating Aggression in Dogs" Patricia McConnel, PhD

November 12, 1998 Fifth Annual Educational Conference "Swimming Upstream: Training Against the Genetic Grain" Jean Donaldson

November 10-12, 1995 Association of Pet Dog Trainers "Training People & Dogs in the 90's"

November 6, 1994 Life Learn by Karen Pryor and Gary Wilkes "Don't Shoot the Dog! The New Art of Teaching and Training"

March 26-27, 1994 University of Guelph "Behavior Problems of Dogs"

March 27-28, 1993 University of Guelph "How Dogs Learn: The Principles of Learning and their Practical Application in Dog Training and Behavior Modification"

April 26, 1990 Cornell University "Canine Nutrition"

September 22, 1991 Cornell University "Solving Canine Behavior Problems"


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I'm not sure why you would base your self justification on one person's views. This person obviously does not follow the advice of the people he studies. Ian Dunbar does not believe in shock for training and another example is Dr., Karen Overall that he apparently has studied also does not endorse shock , and here is her article. http://www.dogdaysnw.com/doc/overall_collars.pdf and here http://www.goodnewsforpets.com/Articles.asp?ID=147 Neither does Dr. Luescher ,and I have articles by him as well. Neither does Karen Pryor. He may be studying these experts but he chooses not to follow their advice. I'm not interested in trying to convince you, because you have made your mind up. Read yourself what the experts are telling us. and I don't mean tv celebrities either. I have numerous articles . good luck with your pup. There's nothing special or different about this shock fence and let's call it what it is. They rely on the save positive punishment to train. The people that this person studied are the real experts . He knew what to put on his bio, but missed the boat on shock training.


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