# when sit is not a sit



## Scarlett's mom (Feb 14, 2017)

I've begun training Scarlett to sit and wait for food/treat. However sit has become a down and sometimes a splat...you know what I mean right? I've tried all the tricks like holding the treat over her head and backing her into a wall but she still goes all the way down in as cute Havanese style as possible. How do I get her to just sit? I haven't even taught her down yet. Trying to master one skill at a time. She's a quick learner but so wiggly! And VERY food motivated. Thanks.


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## Askavi (Nov 5, 2015)

Raffy's sit became a down/splat very early on as well. I was able to make some correction with him, but only with the help of a trainer. That said, since I decided to keep training fairly casual and don't compete with him, I have let it slide over time. His go-to is a down position and generally my goal is a sit/down and stay with him, it works fine for my purposes.


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## Scarlett's mom (Feb 14, 2017)

Askavi said:


> Raffy's sit became a down/splat very early on as well. I was able to make some correction with him, but only with the help of a trainer. That said, since I decided to keep training fairly casual and don't compete with him, I have let it slide over time. His go-to is a down position and generally my goal is a sit/down and stay with him, it works fine for my purposes.


I don't plan on doing anything competetive so I guess it serves the purpose of not jumping and dancing around like a maniac for food or treats! Thanks


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

I'm thinking it has to do with maturity. Maybe?
Wait a short moment before the actual treat.
Try the sit with other things like toys, in different parts of the home.

Henry has to sit for each meal. Been doing it this way for quite some time, though sometimes he is still wiggly sometimes for a treat and I let it slide.
Though I really think it gets better with age experience.


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## Tux's Mom (May 24, 2016)

You might try training with a harness so you can hold her shoulders up and gently put her into a sit position with your other hand while saying "sit" (only once). The INSTANT she is in the correct position, exclaim "Good Sit" and give a treat. Do not treat if the command is not correct (no matter how CUTE she looks). She will soon learn that she has to pay attention to the commands to get the treat, and the Havanese "cuteness factor" only goes so far. LOL


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## Scarlett's mom (Feb 14, 2017)

Tux's Mom said:


> You might try training with a harness so you can hold her shoulders up and gently put her into a sit position with your other hand while saying "sit" (only once). The INSTANT she is in the correct position, exclaim "Good Sit" and give a treat. Do not treat if the command is not correct (no matter how CUTE she looks). She will soon learn that she has to pay attention to the commands to get the treat, and the Havanese "cuteness factor" only goes so far. LOL


Great idea with the harness! I tried getting on the floor and positioning her with my hands without success. I will be trying this. It would be a lot easier if I had three hands


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## hands on Milo (Jun 5, 2017)

This confusion with "sit" and "down" happened with Milo too. He's not too great with the harness at the moment, as all he wants to do is bite it. But, he is super food motivated! so when re-training him to sit, i just walked around with a handful of kibble and said "sit."

If he sat, i said "good sit" and gave him a piece of kibble.
If he laid all the way down, i say nicely said "nope" and kept walking.
He learned that laying down isn't what i wanted and kept following me for the food.
I repeated the process and when he kept getting rewarded for sitting, he learned that that's what i was looking for with that command and laying didn't get him any food.

they're ridiculously cute when they go thru all the tricks they know, without command, in an attempt to get food!


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## Tux's Mom (May 24, 2016)

hands on Milo said:


> This confusion with "sit" and "down" happened with Milo too. He's not too great with the harness at the moment, as all he wants to do is bite it. But, he is super food motivated! so when re-training him to sit, i just walked around with a handful of kibble and said "sit."
> 
> If he sat, i said "good sit" and gave him a piece of kibble.
> If he laid all the way down, i say nicely said "nope" and kept walking.
> ...


I taught Tux to twirl on his hind legs. Now when the strawberries come out, he is a dancing fool before I say ANYTHING. LOL


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Scarlett's mom said:


> Great idea with the harness! I tried getting on the floor and positioning her with my hands without success. I will be trying this. It would be a lot easier if I had three hands


Please don't do this. Join a class or find a trainer to help you. There is no need to use force to train a puppy to sit. Not even "gentle" force.

Luring a puppy into a sit position is very easy if you know what you are doing. But it's not easy to explain in writing here are a couple of You Tube Videos that include sit training:

This is Zak George, and shows a typical "pet" sit: 




Here is one of Pixel, when she was a puppy:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

The other thing you can do is "capture" the sit with a clicker. Keep the clicker in one pocket, and a bunch of kibble in the other pocket. Keep your eye on him, and the moment you see him sit, click and treat. Pretty soon he'll start offering the sit. THEN you can say the word as he sits. Before long he will know what the word means and offer the sit when you say the word. 

Saying "sit" when a puppy doesn't know the behavior doesn't mean anything. They are smart pups, and will probably catch on eventually one way or the other, but proper training progression, and the one that will get you the fastest results, is to name the behavior AFTER you can reliably produce it.


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## Scarlett's mom (Feb 14, 2017)

krandall said:


> The other thing you can do is "capture" the sit with a clicker. Keep the clicker in one pocket, and a bunch of kibble in the other pocket. Keep your eye on him, and the moment you see him sit, click and treat. Pretty soon he'll start offering the sit. THEN you can say the word as he sits. Before long he will know what the word means and offer the sit when you say the word.
> 
> Saying "sit" when a puppy doesn't know the behavior doesn't mean anything. They are smart pups, and will probably catch on eventually one way or the other, but proper training progression, and the one that will get you the fastest results, is to name the behavior AFTER you can reliably produce it.





krandall said:


> Please don't do this. Join a class or find a trainer to help you. There is no need to use force to train a puppy to sit. Not even "gentle" force.
> 
> Luring a puppy into a sit position is very easy if you know what you are doing. But it's not easy to explain in writing here are a couple of You Tube Videos that include sit training:
> 
> ...


Thanks so much! I watched all the videos and then some. I can see I need to hold the treat much closer. We have already made progress!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Scarlett's mom said:


> Thanks so much! I watched all the videos and then some. I can see I need to hold the treat much closer. We have already made progress!


Yay!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Don't feel bad. Most dogs don't really understand totally what sit means. This is because they are situation or pattern trained only. Whatever method you choose, make sure to practice it in variable situations . Even champion obedience dogs can fail a good sit test.


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

I remember when meeting Henry as a puppy. His brothers and sister did a "sit".
His dog mom lined up her puppies and they all sat for her. I swear she did a head count!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> Don't feel bad. Most dogs don't really understand totally what sit means. This is because they are situation or pattern trained only. Whatever method you choose, make sure to practice it in variable situations . Even champion obedience dogs can fail a good sit test.


Not sure exactly what you mean. If "most" dogs don't totally understand sit, it's because most people put rudimentary training into their dogs, at best. But if a "champion" obedience dog doesn't sit, it's not because they don't understand. It could be pressure, it could be pain, it could be distraction (which is a form of pressure) but it's not that the dog doesn't understand "sit".

I certainly agree that all trained behaviors that are important to you should be practiced in as many different circumstances as possible. Dogs do not generalize well. But it's not just sit... they don't generalize well, period. No matter what the behavior. A perfect example of that is when we remodeled our kitchen, including installing a new set of doors into the back yard. Until then Kodi had always been taken out the front door to potty. So he always asked at the front door when he needed to go out. He continued to bark at the front door, then run to the new back door to go out for more than 2 years after the remodel.

Every competition obedience trainer I know "proofs" all behaviors in ALL sorts of different places and conditions. All mine practice at different training facilities, in parking lots, any stores that allow dog, on walks parks... wherever we can, and as often as possible. That's what all the serious obedience people I know do.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yes what I'm saying is that they don;t understand it in all contexts , Most dogs would have a hard time with a sit test such as this one The Sit Test | Dog Star Daily


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> yes what I'm saying is that they don;t understand it in all contexts , Most dogs would have a hard time with a sit test such as this one The Sit Test | Dog Star Daily


Well, there are two parts to this. As we both agree, dogs need to be proofed in many, MANY different situations before a specific cue becomes generalized. But the other part that muddies the waters in that particualr "test" is that we don't teach "sit" as a position, but as a position change. Additionally, in formal obedience, some changes are cued by a pattern (fronts, finishes and automatic sits at halt) others are cued by voice command (the sit from movement or stand, such as the sit on a go-out) or from a hand signal (such as the signal sit from down). So each of those cues meNs something different. Of course we COULD teach the opposite cue for for each change, but we don't have any reason to.

So while that test looks like fun, and certainly points out the need to proof behaviors in as many circumstances as possible, I submit that parts of the test ask the dog to perform a known behavior, but on a novel cue. And changing the cue (or the "language" we share, with includes "patterns" or context) hardly seems fair. We wouldn't expect this of a human.


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## GlenK (Feb 9, 2016)

Here are two good videos on this subject. The first is Zak George that works with Hazel. Zak is so good!!






I made the mistake with Rocky of teaching down from the sit position. Now we're having to try to train him out of it which is much more difficult. Wish I'd seen this video first. Although I like Zak's teaching methods better, this guy makes some good points on situations where you can save your dog's life with the down command.

If you get an ad, close it and re-click the link:


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

"The humane objective of the Sit Test is to illustrate that unreliable responses usually stem from the dog simply not understanding familiar instructions in unusual (un-proofed) settings. The original Sit Test was designed to magnify problems that occur during competition obedience training. Invariably dogs are pattern trained and often performance reliability breaks down with minor variations in procedure, or distractions in the environment. Even minor changes in routine can produce dramatic decreases in reliability. For example, it is easy to demonstrate that an Obedience Trial Champion dog doesn't really even understand what "Sit" means. Dogs are extremely fine discriminators. If the dog has been taught to "Sit" for supper in the kitchen, or to heel-sit and front and finish in obedience class, that's precisely what the dog learns — to sit in the kitchen and during specific exercises in class. The same dog may occasionally not sit in the obedience ring, while playing in the park, or while greeting visitors at the front door. The dog must be trained in an infinite number of situations in order to generalize that "Sit" always means sit."


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Read it on the web site and agree for the most part, with the exceptions as noted.


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