# Suddenly barking/growling at new people & dogs (5 mos)



## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

So Lincoln is 20 weeks (5 mos) now! How'd that happen!? 

Things are going very well overall. The resource guarding that popped up is now under control, as we worked on/continue to work on "Give it/Take it" and "Drop it."

However, he recently started sometimes barking/growling at new people and dogs (when we are out and about - not when the doorbell rings). It's not an aggressive bark or growl, so maybe it's just his way of "communicating." There's no aggressive behavior from him ever. He still sometimes backs up when there's new people as well, which for awhile, he stopped doing (so figured he got over any timidness).

He's been socialized a lot since we got him at 10 weeks. Taken many places, met a variety of dogs and people, takes walks daily, etc. We try to let him meet people and dogs at his own pace (which, when he does, he's fine!). 

Is it typical for them to go through a phase or develop this behavior around 5 months? He's not neutered yet, so is it related to that? I seem to see other people who've mentioned this behavior starting around 5 months. Is there a link? 

I don't want people thinking he's a mean dog, so do I use the "quiet" command in those situations? Then again, if he's just "communicating" that he wants to play or something, or letting people know he's there, should I be stopping it, since he is after all, a dog!

Thanks!


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## Annabellam (Nov 2, 2015)

You are right - barking is natural. It is the way dogs communicate. It gets to a point where it gets frustrating to see the dog barking at everyone. To stop it from barking, you need to first be calm. There is no way you are going to stop it from barking by shouting etc. Again sometimes barking too much can be a result of alot of pent up energy. You could stimulate it mentally and physically through exercise and agility perhaps?


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

Annabellam said:


> You are right - barking is natural. It is the way dogs communicate. It gets to a point where it gets frustrating to see the dog barking at everyone. To stop it from barking, you need to first be calm. There is no way you are going to stop it from barking by shouting etc. Again sometimes barking too much can be a result of alot of pent up energy. You could stimulate it mentally and physically through exercise and agility perhaps?


I don't think it's a case of too much pent up energy, since he gets to play and go for walks on and off throughout the day (I don't work full-time).

We do stay calm with him, and I have been working on the "Quiet" command lately so we have that tool ready when we need it. Just wondering if I should be using it in those situations where he decides to bark at new people or dogs. With dogs, he does approach them anyhow to say "hi" and play. Not always the case with people - sometimes he will approach them anyhow and sometimes not. I just take his cue.

Thanks for the input! ;-)

P.S. When does adolescence start? Are we there? ;-)


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

*k*

it's called adolescence IT?S ALL ABOUT ADOLESCENCE | Dog Star Daily 
keep working on socialization it never really ends. If he is lunging and barking that is a form of aggression. Space and classical conditioning are needed. Search classical conditioning when you are at Dog Star Daily.


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

davetgabby said:


> it's called adolescence IT?S ALL ABOUT ADOLESCENCE | Dog Star Daily
> keep working on socialization it never really ends. If he is lunging and barking that is a form of aggression. Space and classical conditioning are needed. Search classical conditioning when you are at Dog Star Daily.


Thanks for the tips....will check that out and classical conditioning! Thought we might be hitting adolescence phase. :smile2:

I don't see him lunging, but I will keep an eye out for it. I have been trying to catch when he's quiet and treating, and/or trying to use another cue for distraction.

And of course, will keep up with the socialization. He's got his puppy class test at his final class next Monday! :bounce:


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## Mosttoys (Mar 14, 2015)

Cody is 1 year and 4 months old and unfortunately we as dog parents have done a bad job of not seeing this progression of aggression and should have taken steps to prevent this. As a puppy he went to 2 series of dog school training classes and we thought he had it down. Well, he did for quite awhile until he started exhibiting all the signs of adolescence and we thought it would pass.
Reading these posts and David's classical conditioning has brought new insight to what needs to be done on our part to socialize Cody.
He is such a good boy 80% of the time.... it is just those door bell ring moments, strangers at the door, new dogs in our yard or on our walks as well as strangers on our walks that puts him into the "crazed" mode.
Will report back to our progress and wish the best for Lincoln.. you are catching his habits early for a successful correction!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Annabellam said:


> You are right - barking is natural. It is the way dogs communicate. It gets to a point where it gets frustrating to see the dog barking at everyone. To stop it from barking, you need to first be calm. There is no way you are going to stop it from barking by shouting etc. Again sometimes barking too much can be a result of alot of pent up energy. You could stimulate it mentally and physically through exercise and agility perhaps?


Agility is not appropriate for puppies. Their bones and joints have not matured.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mosttoys said:


> Cody is 1 year and 4 months old and unfortunately we as dog parents have done a bad job of not seeing this progression of aggression and should have taken steps to prevent this. As a puppy he went to 2 series of dog school training classes and we thought he had it down. Well, he did for quite awhile until he started exhibiting all the signs of adolescence and we thought it would pass.
> Reading these posts and David's classical conditioning has brought new insight to what needs to be done on our part to socialize Cody.
> He is such a good boy 80% of the time.... it is just those door bell ring moments, strangers at the door, new dogs in our yard or on our walks as well as strangers on our walks that puts him into the "crazed" mode.
> Will report back to our progress and wish the best for Lincoln.. you are catching his habits early for a successful correction!


I wish other people could learn from your experience. IMO, people should keep their puppies in SOME sort of training class, where they have access to professional help as needed, right through their first year AT LEAST! one or two 6-8 week sessions just don't cut it. This is SUCH an investment in the long-term enjoyment of a family member. A well mannered, well socialized dog is a joy to take places and be around. One with holes in his education and socialization may still be well-loved by his family, but is a constant "management problem".


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## M&J (Mar 1, 2016)

krandall said:


> I wish other people could learn from your experience. IMO, people should keep their puppies in SOME sort of training class, where they have access to professional help as needed, right through their first year AT LEAST! one or two 6-8 week sessions just don't cut it. This is SUCH an investment in the long-term enjoyment of a family member. A well mannered, well socialized dog is a joy to take places and be around. One with holes in his education and socialization may still be well-loved by his family, but is a constant "management problem".


Tucker just finished puppy class. Working hard on training and commands now at home. Next up is Manners 101 and then 102 then another advanced obedience class. He has this short break now because the other class starts right before our vacation and then one starts when we get back so we chose the latter so he doesn't miss anything.:grin2: I like the classes and so glad we chose to do them.


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## articshark (Apr 4, 2016)

I agree. I picked a school that has multiple classes for Java even though there is an another excellent facility quite near us- they had less classes. It's not just for puppy, it's for me as well. They can often help as problems crop up. And I think with dogs, stuff is going to pop up right through adolescence. Plus, talk about a space to see other dogs and people and help conditioning in that manner as well. I can't WAIT to start our puppy classes. But I think we will do a couple more puppy preschools to get her very conformable with the facility before we try the training part of it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

articshark said:


> I agree. I picked a school that has multiple classes for Java even though there is an another excellent facility quite near us- they had less classes. It's not just for puppy, it's for me as well. They can often help as problems crop up. And I think with dogs, stuff is going to pop up right through adolescence. Plus, talk about a space to see other dogs and people and help conditioning in that manner as well. I can't WAIT to start our puppy classes. But I think we will do a couple more puppy preschools to get her very conformable with the facility before we try the training part of it.


You may also want to take a class or two at the other training center too, if it's near by, and has a good reputation. It's great for puppies (and older dogs too!) to get used to working in different places and with different dogs and trainers. I use two different training facilities pretty regularly, and go to several others to do ring rentals so my dogs see many different environments.

One of the facilities (the one where I do most of my training) also has a great class called "Real World Obedience". This isn't for little puppies, of course, but for older puppies and adult pet dogs who need to learn to pay attention and work in more distracting environments. The class meets in a different local park, outdoor shopping mall or even church parking lots each week, and they practice working in those more distracting places. It's great for people who aren't used to getting and keeping their dogs' attention in a challenging environment.


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## M&J (Mar 1, 2016)

krandall said:


> You may also want to take a class or two at the other training center too, if it's near by, and has a good reputation. It's great for puppies (and older dogs too!) to get used to working in different places and with different dogs and trainers. I use two different training facilities pretty regularly, and go to several others to do ring rentals so my dogs see many different environments.
> 
> One of the facilities (the one where I do most of my training) also has a great class called "Real World Obedience". This isn't for little puppies, of course, but for older puppies and adult pet dogs who need to learn to pay attention and work in more distracting environments. The class meets in a different local park, outdoor shopping mall or even church parking lots each week, and they practice working in those more distracting places. It's great for people who aren't used to getting and keeping their dogs' attention in a challenging environment.


Our trainers do this. We have an outdoor session on the 24th at the National Whitewater Center in Charlotte, N.C. It's a pretty cool place and they are doing the Olympic trials there now.


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

Great feedback everyone! 

I will definitely continue to work with him on these new behaviors. I do have access to our puppy class teacher and our trainer for tips, but I am trying to find a local place for additional classes beyond the Puppy AKC Star class. He sees dogs daily on our walks - both familiar dogs and new ones, but I definitely see the benefit of continuing classes.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TamaraCamera said:


> Great feedback everyone!
> 
> I will definitely continue to work with him on these new behaviors. I do have access to our puppy class teacher and our trainer for tips, but I am trying to find a local place for additional classes beyond the Puppy AKC Star class. He sees dogs daily on our walks - both familiar dogs and new ones, but I definitely see the benefit of continuing classes.


The problem is that "seeing" dogs and people on your daily walks seems to be causing his reactive behavior. In a class (or with private instruction on your walks) you would learn ways to help him feel more comfortable in these situations. By the time he has reacted, it's already to late to repair that single experience. You have to learn how to keep him comfortable and under threshhold, so that he doesn't react to start with, and, therefore, starts to view dogs and strang people as less of a threat.


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> The problem is that "seeing" dogs and people on your daily walks seems to be causing his reactive behavior. In a class (or with private instruction on your walks) you would learn ways to help him feel more comfortable in these situations. By the time he has reacted, it's already to late to repair that single experience. You have to learn how to keep him comfortable and under threshhold, so that he doesn't react to start with, and, therefore, starts to view dogs and strang people as less of a threat.


I had been looking into 2nd level classes for him (beyond the puppy class he passed). I wonder if, instead, I should reach out to my puppy trainer teacher and have him come do some one-to-one sessions like you mentioned - to do it in real-time when we're walking, etc?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TamaraCamera said:


> I had been looking into 2nd level classes for him (beyond the puppy class he passed). I wonder if, instead, I should reach out to my puppy trainer teacher and have him come do some one-to-one sessions like you mentioned - to do it in real-time when we're walking, etc?


If it were me? I'd do both!


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## michelleho (Oct 7, 2015)

Meeko is the same age and doing the same thing !! I will be interested in other' s comments too !


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

michelleho said:


> Meeko is the same age and doing the same thing !! I will be interested in other' s comments too !


I did wonder if this was a typical thing that crops up during adolescence. Seems like by the time they're older, many Havs have stopped this behavior?


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> If it were me? I'd do both!


Have an email into our puppy class trainer about coming over to work on it in real-time, and am trying to find the next round of obedience classes in our area (not proving to be so easy!).


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

michelleho said:


> Meeko is the same age and doing the same thing !! I will be interested in other' s comments too !


Puppies go through an "environmental fear imprint period" somewhere between 6 and 14 months. That's a long time, and you never know when it's going to hit, or how severe it will be with any particular puppy! Most get over it pretty easily, if it is handled gently and kindly, and if they continue to be socialized while keeping them from becoming frightened. Others need more specific help.

This is a nice article explaining the fear imprint periods:

https://pethelpful.com/dogs/Dog-Behavior-Understanding-Fear-Periods-in-Dogs


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## Cassandra (Dec 29, 2015)

Thanks for the link to article, Karen. Very interesting. These behavior changes at different stages are very interesting. 

Cassie does not show fear or aggressive behavior but we have noticed a distinct stubbornness relating to her preferred walking route. I used to take her on all different routes in our neighborhood...she now tries to lead in specific directions. We are gently trying to get her to go a block or two in a different direction. She wants to always go to her favorite park/playground where she gets to see children playing. She doesn't approach them, but stands wagging her tail. I want her to be willing to walk where I want but am not pushing it too hard for now as she will comply without too much struggle and I assume she is passing thru a phase...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Cassandra said:


> Thanks for the link to article, Karen. Very interesting. These behavior changes at different stages are very interesting.
> 
> Cassie does not show fear or aggressive behavior but we have noticed a distinct stubbornness relating to her preferred walking route. I used to take her on all different routes in our neighborhood...she now tries to lead in specific directions. We are gently trying to get her to go a block or two in a different direction. She wants to always go to her favorite park/playground where she gets to see children playing. She doesn't approach them, but stands wagging her tail. I want her to be willing to walk where I want but am not pushing it too hard for now as she will comply without too much struggle and I assume she is passing thru a phase...


Remember, dogs really aren't "stubborn". It's a matter of something in the environment being more compelling to them than what you want them to do. (in this case, it sounds like visiting those kids is a HUGE incentive for her)

There is something called the Premack Principle, which can be very powerful in a case like this. Do what you need to do to get her to walk in a different direction, then as a reward, let her end by going to see the kids. THis can be a VERY strong reinforcement. If you want to learn more about the Premack Principle, just Google it... there are LOTS of articles!


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## Cassandra (Dec 29, 2015)

Neat! I googled Premack Principle and found references to both dog training and child behavior concepts! Makes sense it works with both and we are trying to end most walks at the playground so she see there is a reward for her! Just taking different routes.


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## Mosttoys (Mar 14, 2015)

Mosttoys said:


> Cody is 1 year and 4 months old and unfortunately we as dog parents have done a bad job of not seeing this progression of aggression and should have taken steps to prevent this. As a puppy he went to 2 series of dog school training classes and we thought he had it down. Well, he did for quite awhile until he started exhibiting all the signs of adolescence and we thought it would pass.
> Reading these posts and David's classical conditioning has brought new insight to what needs to be done on our part to socialize Cody.
> He is such a good boy 80% of the time.... it is just those door bell ring moments, strangers at the door, new dogs in our yard or on our walks as well as strangers on our walks that puts him into the "crazed" mode.
> Will report back to our progress and wish the best for Lincoln.. you are catching his habits early for a successful correction!


Reporting back. I have taken Cody to our local off leash dog park twice now as well as reinforcing the training lessons we went through in dog school. 
I was tentative to take him off leash as he started his pull and bark tendencies initially. After checking with the other dogs owner I released Cody and he did run towards the dog and then he stopped and sniffed and stopped barking. He stayed quiet and just played with the dog which amazed me. 
On our second trip to the dog park there were three dogs walking. Zero barking when he approached and I took him off leash. 
No running towards them, just a casual walk and sniff.

On our daily streewalks he still has a tendency to pull and bark at others when on leash. He is much better though and has reduced the pull and bark frequency. I won't take him off leash on street walks so I was curious to his behavior on and off leash.

Is he in protective mode on leash or is his no barking at the dog park off leash due to his experiences there with other dogs?


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

he sounds like he is frustrated when on leash and simply wants to greet. That s' why if you are at a dog park you should always have your dog offleash .Many dogs don't great well on leash and they need to feel like they can escape if necessary.


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

Update......

I've been working on the barking at new people/dogs/sounds all weekend, anytime we were outside or taking a walk. I am happy to report that by using treats as we approach the situation, a "look" command followed by "it's okay", and a "Yes!" and a treat to mark the quiet and friendly behavior, Lincoln has been doing GREAT! (I also make sure to give him a good petting/praise when we're done with the interaction afterwards, too).

We walk 1-2 times a day in our neighborhood (which always has lots of people out and about), so we've met new people each day and their dogs (yesterday we met another dog named Lincoln, and another black Havanese as well). We've come across lawnmowers, gardening crews working, trucks, big dogs, little dogs, people running, people biking, etc, and he's done exceptionally well with this routine. 

I truly think when it was suggested here, that despite socializing him early on he somehow suddenly started to associate "new" things as negative, helped a ton. It made me step back and realize that I couldn't just train the "quiet" command and expect him to comply in the middle of a heightened state. I needed to step back further and create new associations. Sometimes he even just looks at me as we approach things and he's quiet on his own without me saying anything. 

We will of course continue to reinforce this, and in various areas, too - plan to meet up with our puppy class teacher in a town with tons of sidewalks, stores, etc and walk around this weekend to reinforce. And eventually phase out treats of course. Someday! ;-)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TamaraCamera said:


> Update......
> 
> I've been working on the barking at new people/dogs/sounds all weekend, anytime we were outside or taking a walk. I am happy to report that by using treats as we approach the situation, a "look" command followed by "it's okay", and a "Yes!" and a treat to mark the quiet and friendly behavior, Lincoln has been doing GREAT! (I also make sure to give him a good petting/praise when we're done with the interaction afterwards, too).
> 
> ...


Sounds like you and Lincoln are doing great! You have to remember that a 5 or 6 month old puppy is still just that... a puppy. A very young animal with limited experience with the world. It is easy for them to begin to lose confidence, and need us to help them feel safe again. Good job!


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> Sounds like you and Lincoln are doing great! You have to remember that a 5 or 6 month old puppy is still just that... a puppy. A very young animal with limited experience with the world. It is easy for them to begin to lose confidence, and need us to help them feel safe again. Good job!


Great reminder! This and the resource guarding of high-value treats, made me realize that, which took me a bit off-guard, since, being a new dog owner, I figured that once they knew something, they knew it! But taking steps back, working on re-establishing positive associations and continually practicing the desired behavior has really helped for both behaviors....and I now realize I will be doing that for some time still! :grin2:

Now, just have to help him go for a walk with hubby without me around! :wink2:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TamaraCamera said:


> Great reminder! This and the resource guarding of high-value treats, made me realize that, which took me a bit off-guard, since, being a new dog owner, I figured that once they knew something, they knew it! But taking steps back, working on re-establishing positive associations and continually practicing the desired behavior has really helped for both behaviors....and I now realize I will be doing that for some time still! :grin2:


You will really be doing that to some extent for the dog's life. Dogs are ALWAYS learning... either to do things better or to let behaviors slide and become sloppy. You need to do less once behaviors are fully learned, but you always need to buff them up with some practice now and then.


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