# Unsure of what to Feed (sorry, very long!)



## Duncan'sMom

I think I need some food advice. I have searched the forums and read everything I can but I am still unsure what to do next with Duncan.

Sorry if this is long, but any advice for my next steps I would appreciate:
Duncan came eating Science Diet which he loved and did really well on. I knew it was not a good food, so I did want to switch it. We first tried Purina Pro, which he also did well on but hated. He only ate it when he was really hungry.
I then switched him gradually to Solid Gold - He loved it, but we had severe potty issues. Very loose stool and at times he seems constipated, trying to go more but couldn't. I started mixing his food with Wysong since I had a bag of that to transition him, but he ate all the Solid Gold out of the bowl and left the Wysong.

I of course tried pumpkin - which he refuses to eat. He just picks the dry kibble out around the pumpkin.

I got a bunch of sample bags and over the last week have tried:
California Naturals - refused to eat
Artemis - refused, then ate the next day but he was most likely starving
Before Grain Salmon - not crazy about

During this time, I tried adding some greek yogurt mixed with pumpkin so he ate a little of that. Stool is firmer, but never as firm as it was on the Science Diet or Purina Pro.

I brought Orijen home yesterday and he inhaled it like I have never seen. Of course this morning, more stomach issues.

Unfortunately in the midst of all of this, we have gone through a major heat wave, so I am not sure if that is adding some stress to his body.

So do I keep up the Orijen for a week - adding some pumpkin/yogurt - to see if he adjusts? Try something new? 

For stomach issues like this, is it usually the protein, fat or fiber content that I should be checking on? I was on dogfoodanalysis.com trying to find a correlation on what what foods he did better on, but I couldn't figure it out.

In my house now, I have Wysong, Solid Gold, Orijen, and Before Grain ~ what on earth should I give him tonight?

If you actually got through this whole post - thank you, I appreciate any ideas!


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## juliav

Jen, just take a deep breath girl. :biggrin1:

You've got some excellent food there, but the problem is you are switching it so fast and so often your baby's tommy has trouble adjusting. Whenever you introduce new food, you give about 1/4 or less of new mixed with the old and do it gradually, over time. Since Duncan seem to love Oijen, and from the foods you have at home, it's definitely top of the line, I would just feed that. There is an excellent product on the market made to safely transition a dog from one food to the other. It's made by Eagle Pack Holistic Selects. They also make another product to help with more chronic upset stomach. Here's the link to both of them.

http://www.eaglepack.com/SP_DigestiveAids.html

There is another excellent product which I always keep on hand, which helps with upset stomach issues called OptaGest. Here's the link.

http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/product_detail.aspx?item_guid=924c586c-ed2c-40f3-8b5b-f6d4e66e3ef2

I buy all these products locally at our small pet supply stores, so I suggest you look there first.
Good luck,


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## Missy

Hi Jen, I agree with Julia's advice completely. But want to add from experience, slow transitioning may not be possible with a picky eater as it sounds like Duncan is. I am not familiar with those products but if they help great. If not, and Duncan seems ok other than loose poops perhaps just deal with it for a week or so. from experience that seems to be less frustrating also perhaps adding some plain white rice to orijen and slowly reducing the amount of rice may help too.

BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY!!!!!! You are in Boston! have you seen the post about our New England play date September 12th at 1pm? here is the link

http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=9495&highlight=havablast

I hope you can make it. Duncan is adorable.


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## tabby2

I agree with all of the above (including what a cutie Duncan is!). One other suggestion: I boil or microwave a small turkey breast or chicken breast, dice it finely and sprinkle a small amount into the kibble -- sometimes I moisten the kibble with the chicken "broth" as well. BJ loves this and it changes it up for him from just straight kibble. 

Jane


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## marb42

Jen,

I"m not sure why Science Diet is considered a bad food (haven't heard anything on it), but it is the only food Marble likes and does well on. He had chronic diarrhea and we were in and out of the vet for the first year. Not only did he hate the foods we tried, but he was always sick. I must have tried at least 10 premium foods as well as the rice and boiled chicken diet. Finally, my vet gave him the prescription Science Diet Hypoallergenic. I was blown away because it was the first food he actually ate and didn't pick at. His diarrhea cleared up within a few days. 

I don't know how quickly your incorporating new foods and whether that has caused loose stools, but if Duncan did really well on Science Diet and liked the taste, maybe you can try it again if nothing else works. I have been really happy with it. Good luck, and I hope you find something that works!
Gina


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## hyindc

I, too, read constantly about dog foods when we got our puppies last year. I read so much contradictory and inconsistent information, as well as descriptions by pet owners of dramatically different reactions different dogs have to the same brands, that I concluded that whatever dog food our dogs enjoyed eating, whatever kept their bowels regular, and making sure that our vet concurred is appropriately nutritious for them, would be the food for our guys. 

They have been doing great on Nutro for about a year now. I did find that experimenting with different brands, formulations and tasty "add-ons" to encourage appetites, was the worst for their bowels, and keeping them consistently on one formulation that they liked was best. 

They also seemed to be picky eaters as puppies. Either they outgrew the pickiness or I was the one causing it by giving them different tastes every few weeks so that they never knew what to expect.


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## HavaBaloo

Changing from Science diet to Orijen is a great idea, but you have to give it some time. When changing any diet (even human) you will have bowel movement changes as well. So give it a week or more, and you will see it will settle down. 

Orijen is one of the best dog foods out there, so you can't really go wrong.


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## Carefulove

Jen,

I have no experience with dry food, but I agree with everyone, changing diets takes a few days. Give him time.

Also, have you thought about raw? I switched Bumi the very next day I got him to raw chicken. He has been eating it since then (for 1 month already) and has had no problems. Poops are solid.


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## Duncan'sMom

First,thank you everyone for the advice! I really appreciate you taking the time to help me.



juliav said:


> There is an excellent product on the market made to safely transition a dog from one food to the other. It's made by Eagle Pack Holistic Selects. They also make another product to help with more chronic upset stomach. Here's the link to both of them.
> 
> http://www.eaglepack.com/SP_DigestiveAids.html
> 
> There is another excellent product which I always keep on hand, which helps with upset stomach issues called OptaGest. Here's the link.
> 
> http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/product_detail.aspx?item_guid=924c586c-ed2c-40f3-8b5b-f6d4e66e3ef2
> 
> I buy all these products locally at our small pet supply stores, so I suggest you look there first.
> Good luck,


I am in a major city, and I have called all the pet stores listed on Eagle Pack's site - no one has it! Alternatives I was given over the phone were The Wholistic Pet Digestall or a similar product by Animal Essentials.

Anyone try either of these?



Missy said:


> BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY!!!!!! You are in Boston! have you seen the post about our New England play date September 12th at 1pm? here is the link
> 
> http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=9495&highlight=havablast
> 
> I hope you can make it. Duncan is adorable.


I know ~ I want to come! I have been trying to figure out if my family who is supposed to be in town that weekend will actually be in town. What town is it in? (Or you can PM me if you don't want to put it on here.)



marb42 said:


> Jen,
> 
> I"m not sure why Science Diet is considered a bad food (haven't heard anything on it), but it is the only food Marble likes and does well on.


It's not that bad, but it gets very low scores on dogfoodanalysis.com. And I believe it's due to the corn that is in it. One complaint on the Science Diet is that when he went it was very firm, but it stunk like you would not believe!



Carefulove said:


> Also, have you thought about raw? I switched Bumi the very next day I got him to raw chicken. He has been eating it since then (for 1 month already) and has had no problems. Poops are solid.


I am not sure if I can handle raw 

I cannot believe how much DH and I have discussed his poop over the last 2 week. I am so immune to how odd it is already...lol.

I will keep up with Orijen for another week or so and hope his stomach settles. I plan to cook him some plain white rice and chicken this weekend as well, since he refuses to eat the pumpkin. I want to stick with the Orijen since he has inhaled the last 4 meals of it, and he never ate that fast with any other food. He loves it! I just hope his stomach will love it soon too....


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## DAJsMom

Every time I have changed the food for my two, there has been a period of adjustment (with their stools). I suggest you stick with the Orijen for at least one full bag. Give his digestive system a good amount of time to adjust. My two liked Orijen and did great on it, then suddenly quit eating it. The gal at the pet store thought that Orijen had maybe just changed their formulation. I didn't follow up, I just switched food to Taste of the Wild (yellow bag-bison and something or another). Once their systems adjusted to the change, they have done great on that too, so we're sticking with it for now. 
Once you find something that works, stick with it and don't worry too much!


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## krandall

hyindc said:


> I, too, read constantly about dog foods when we got our puppies last year. I read so much contradictory and inconsistent information, as well as descriptions by pet owners of dramatically different reactions different dogs have to the same brands, that I concluded that whatever dog food our dogs enjoyed eating, whatever kept their bowels regular, and making sure that our vet concurred is appropriately nutritious for them, would be the food for our guys.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> They also seemed to be picky eaters as puppies. Either they outgrew the pickiness or I was the one causing it by giving them different tastes every few weeks so that they never knew what to expect.


This seems to be true for Kodi too. There are days that he turns his nose up at his Royal Canin (the brand HE approved in the beginning, and that has been endorsed by his breeder, the vet, the trainer and two friends who are very knowledgeable about dog nutrition) and eats almost nothing. I put it down, he eats or he doesn't, and I pick up and put away what's left.

I'd love it if he eagerly awaited each meal and scoffed it down quickly. But after years of living with cats, and knowing how easily they can be turned into "picky eaters" if you cater to them, I am bound and determined that that won't happen to my dog.<g>

I've had Kodi for about 7 weeks now, and in that time he's grown from 6 lbs to just over 10. His picky eating isn't stunting his growth.

I DO use high value treat foods for training. In fact, our trainer suggested a 3-tier approach to training treats. Treats that you use for every-day treating, or having a stranger hand to the puppy to make friends... something they like, but not the treat they turn sommersaults for. Then a medium value treat food for training... something that they like a LOT, and are willing to keep working for, and finally something they are over the moon about that can be used either for "jackpotting" when they learn something really hard, or when you need them to keep working even in the midst of distractions, etc. I've had to change up the tier 1 & 2 treats somewhat... some that started as tier 2 he's gotten kind of ho-hum about. But the tier 3 "jackpot" treat of boiled chicken bits seems to still be s VERY strong motivator!

I have a son who is very picky eater too. At ONE YEAR he had still refused ANY form of solid food. I felt ashamed to go to the pediatrician and admit this at his one year check-up. :redface: He looked at my son and said, "Look at his size! He's at the top of the growth charts. You are NOT stunting his growth. Stop worrying; he'll eat when he's ready." My son has remained an incredibly picky eater (though at 16, he does eat solid food:wink and remains tall and slim, but not skinny. I make sure he takes a multivitamin daily, and have HAD to learn (out of self-preservation) to stop worrying about it.

That's my approach with Kodi too. I know he's growing well. I can feel his ribs, but he's certainly not skinny. I take comfort that everything he puts in his mouth (including the treat foods) are high quality and nutritious. Then I try not to worry about it!


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## Jill in Mich

marb42 said:


> Jen,
> 
> I"m not sure why Science Diet is considered a bad food (haven't heard anything on it), but it is the only food Marble likes and does well on. He had chronic diarrhea and we were in and out of the vet for the first year. Not only did he hate the foods we tried, but he was always sick. I must have tried at least 10 premium foods as well as the rice and boiled chicken diet. Finally, my vet gave him the prescription Science Diet Hypoallergenic. I was blown away because it was the first food he actually ate and didn't pick at. His diarrhea cleared up within a few days.
> 
> I don't know how quickly your incorporating new foods and whether that has caused loose stools, but if Duncan did really well on Science Diet and liked the taste, maybe you can try it again if nothing else works. I have been really happy with it. Good luck, and I hope you find something that works!
> Gina


The perscription Science Diet is rated better than the Science Diet you can buy at the pet food store. I agree with you - if it's working for Marble- I'd stick with it too!


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## Jill in Mich

Carefulove said:


> Jen,
> 
> I have no experience with dry food, but I agree with everyone, changing diets takes a few days. Give him time.
> 
> Also, have you thought about raw? I switched Bumi the very next day I got him to raw chicken. He has been eating it since then (for 1 month already) and has had no problems. Poops are solid.


Zury, are you just feeding chicken or mixing it with fruits/vegatables/supplements/etc.?


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## DanielBMe

The more you change his food the more he'll expect something better and refuse to eat what you give him. I'd stick with the Orijen since it's an excellent kibble. You really have to transition slowly. Leave some in a bowl but not too much, and leave it out the whole day. I'm sure at some point he'll start eating it. He'll eat the little bit you leave and then will want more eventually since having some food in his stomach will probably make him hungry. But don't give him more right away. Make him wait for it. If he doesn't eat, don't worry too much. Over the course of 1-3 days, he won't starve himself to death.


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## marb42

Jill in Mich said:


> The perscription Science Diet is rated better than the Science Diet you can buy at the pet food store. I agree with you - if it's working for Marble- I'd stick with it too!


I see... Thanks! I will definitely stick with it, as Marble suffered a lot until we found it.
Gina


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## Duncan'sMom

Update on Duncan:

Thanks for all the advice, but we are still having some issues.

For the last 3 weeks, he has been on Orijen only. For the first few days we mixed it with rice/chicken broth, and his stool firmed up. Everything seemed to be going well for a week, so we bought a bag of it (we were just using trial sizes). Of course once we got the bag, his diarhhea came back. 

The last 2 weeks, it goes from very wet to somewhat firmer back to loose. It's so annoying. I have been adding rice the last 5 days and it's helped slightly, but I know we need a better solution.

I have gotten way too much advice from pet store owners, puppy daycare providers, etc. He needs grain, he doesn't, too much protein, too much fat, etc.


So in summary, he did well on Science Diet and Purina Pro Plan and very badly on Solid Gold and Orijen.

I prefer not to go back to SD (when he went, it smelled ridiculously bad, I can't even describe) or Purina Pro (he hated it), but would anyone recommend a similar product formula that might work for us?

TIA ~ any help would be appreciated, as this is driving us crazy!


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## aam5019

I am having trouble with Farfel too. He refuses to eat dog food of any type. He will eat meat if I feed it to him, some vegetables and rice. He loves cheese and cottage cheese. I don't know what to do. I've been told he should eat dog food for good nutrition. We give him a vitamin. Do you think I should put him on straight dog food? And, how do you do that without him going hungry?

Thanks so much for any advise you can give me. He is a year and a half old.

Alice


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## Lilysplash I

Jen, have you tried Innova? I have recently mixed Innova with Orijen and my two are doing well. You probably don't need more advice but just thought I would throw out what is working for us. 

I buy the smallest bag of Innova and two trial bags of Origen and mix them together in equal amounts. My dogs coats are fantastic! I do believe it is the Orijen that is contributing to this as have always just fed them either Artemis or Innova. I have not felt led to go the no grain route entirely at this time. I also add canned food topping & some warm water to the kibble.


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## Missy

Jen, first let me say that I am sorry that the weather made it so you won't be able to make it to the Havablast on Sunday  

I was gonna mention Innova too. There are two others that come to mind that are great foods but not the high protein that Orijen is---Merrick ( they have many flavors but I would start on grammy pot pie) and Fromms 4 star Gourmet. Again start with the chicken as that is most likely the main ingredient in SD and Purina. i would look on the products duncan does best on and then try to match as closely as possible the protein/fat ratio... So for instance... If SD has 24% protein, 18% Fat try to stay as close to that as possible. Not enough fat can cause really loose poo's 

Also, would you consider the commercial raw? As a convert who also had a finicky, loose poo pup and swore I would never feed raw...now I will never go back. Jasper is better than he has ever been in all areas. 

Sorry I won't get to meet you both on Sunday...if your plans change feel free to come.


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## juliav

Jen,

Have you taken a stool sample to your vet to check for giardia and coccidia? If you haven't, you should as his upset stomachs may not have anything to do with his food.


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## marjrc

Hi Jen,

I was about to suggest what Julia just did... just to be sure there isn't something in Duncan's gut causing these issues.

I work in a store that sells healthy food for cats and dogs and we get people in with the same concerns you have. I'm not sure why Duncan did well on Orijen for a while, then got loose stools once you'd bought a larger bag. It can be frustrating! Obviously, loose stools isn't what you want him to have long-term, so something needs to be done.

The site you and others have mentioned, www.dogfoodanalysis.com, will show that Purina Pro Plan really isn't a great food: http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=1402&cat=all and the same with Science Diet puppy: http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=1028&cat=all Their "sensitive stomach" version is no better, with loads of grains. These foods can help in the short-run, but definitely aren't recommended for months at a time as they provide almost no meat protein, which a dog needs. The "bad smell" is an indication that it's not the right food for Duncan.

I know you don't want to do 'raw', but Missy's suggestion of prepared raw food, medallions already formed and mixed, can be a great option. Raw definitely provides everything a dog needs and it's stool will be dry, very pale, no odor at all, and you won't get a lot of it. The dog absorbs the protein and nutrients in raw food so much more easily than in commercial kibble. That being said, Orijen is a great product, but Champion Pet Foods also has Acana - rated 6 stars, just like Orijen - that contains less protein. Maybe Duncan doesn't do well on a high protein diet. Acana (their no-grain versions) has 33% compared to Orijen's 42%. Might be an option......

I'm sorry it isn't easy and that Duncan's stool is so loose. It is unpleasant for you as well as for him. Hope you find a solution soon!


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## wooflife

Orijen is very good food and he likes it but it is high protein so it would be a definate transition from Science diet which is grain based. It's not suprising that Duncan is having tummy trouble. Think of like a Vegetarian all of a sudden deciding to eat meat and eating almost all meat. 

Have you tried adding probiotics to his diet? With all the switching he may just need to some good bacteria added back to his gut so he can process meat based foods appropriately. You can also add a little plain yogurt with every meal. 

Also whenever you feed a higher protein kibble you should make sure your dog is getting lots of water - you can add about a half a cup or so to the kibble when you give it to him to help. 

If the Orijen doesn't work out try:

Wellness Core
Innova Evo
Timberwolf


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## davetgabby

More good news . Now we have to deal with more confusing and misleading terminology. "human grade".. LOL Here is a great article by Sabine at The Dog Food Project. http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=meat-meal


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## Lina

I agree with Julia and Marj 100%. Get a stool sample to your vet. From what you're saying I am almost certain that this is Giardia or worms. There's no way that a food would all of a sudden upset his tummy if he was fine on it at first unless there was a parasite or bacteria making him sick!

Alice, do NOT worry about your dog starving when he goes on hunger strikes! I *know* how hard it is to see them not eat, but it's worse for you and him to cave to his demands. Dogs can go 3+ days without food and be 100% fine. And I mean ZERO food. If you're trying to get him to eat his food, you can't give treats - not a single tiny bite - and absolutely do not add anything to entice him to eat (chicken, meat, whatever). If you want to go the homecooked route, that's totally fine but you will have to watch the amounts you're feeding him, take care that he's getting the right amount of calcium, vitamins, etc. and it's not for sure that he won't start refusing that either. I know a few members here who had that happen. Whatever you decide to feed him (and it's YOUR decision ultimately, not mine or anyone else's), I would strongly suggest that you hold out and make sure that he's eating it without caving into his demands. If you do, you will just be creating a picky monster - and I've seen my share of those... not fun!


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## Duncan'sMom

juliav said:


> Jen,
> 
> Have you taken a stool sample to your vet to check for giardia and coccidia? If you haven't, you should as his upset stomachs may not have anything to do with his food.


Thanks for the advice from everyone who mentioned this ~ we did take a sample to the vet on Saturday. It came back negative (and that giardia test is $$$!), but I feel better knowing for sure.

The vet gave me some probiotics for him, as well as a prescription (I can't remember the name of it now, something with an L). He was on both of those, plus chicken and rice only this weekend and is doing much better so far. We added in just a bit of the Orijen kibble today and will slowly add it for the next week.

Hopefully this is the end and he will do really well on the Orijen. If not, I plan to look into the other recommendations listed on this thread. Duncan loves the Orijen so much so I do hope that this will be the winner.

Also, at the vet, we learned that our dog has seasonal allergies. DH and I do, so of course we have a dog that does as well


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## Missy

Jen, that is so great. I am glad you went to the vet too. the probiotics will help. If you get through your slow, slow, slow, transition back to orijen. and if he reverts to loose stools, perhaps try California Naturals chicken and rice. It is a very simple ingredient kibble and Duncan may do better on it. Just something to keep in the back of your mind a month down the road.


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## william spears

DUH
when they give zoo pets dry crap I will give it to my dogs, until then give it a proper diet like, meat, veggies apples and fruit.

Did your kids survive on a Big Mac ?????


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## Julie

william spears said:


> DUH
> when they give zoo pets dry crap I will give it to my dogs, until then give it a proper diet like, meat, veggies apples and fruit.
> 
> Did your kids survive on a Big Mac ?????


I think you need some manners----


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## davetgabby

Julie said:


> I think you need some manners----


I agree Julie.


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## Dawna

William,
Get to know the forum. If you plan to be rude you won't be here long. 
Moderator


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## Leslie

Dawna said:


> William,
> Get to know the forum. If you plan to be rude you won't be here long.
> Moderator


Thank you, Dawna.


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## marjrc

william spears said:


> DUH
> when they give zoo pets dry crap I will give it to my dogs, until then give it a proper diet like, meat, veggies apples and fruit.
> 
> Did your kids survive on a Big Mac ?????


You have got to be kidding me. Reading your latest posts has me wondering.. What were you raised by, william spears? Even animals have better manners than you. And yes, animals that may or may not have been eating dry kibble! I am likely feeding into your need for attention, but get your thrills on some other forum please. Just leave.


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## DanielBMe

What were the symptoms that lead the vet to believe that he's got seasonal allergies as opposed to a food based one?



Duncan'sMom said:


> Thanks for the advice from everyone who mentioned this ~ we did take a sample to the vet on Saturday. It came back negative (and that giardia test is $$$!), but I feel better knowing for sure.
> 
> The vet gave me some probiotics for him, as well as a prescription (I can't remember the name of it now, something with an L). He was on both of those, plus chicken and rice only this weekend and is doing much better so far. We added in just a bit of the Orijen kibble today and will slowly add it for the next week.
> 
> Hopefully this is the end and he will do really well on the Orijen. If not, I plan to look into the other recommendations listed on this thread. Duncan loves the Orijen so much so I do hope that this will be the winner.
> 
> Also, at the vet, we learned that our dog has seasonal allergies. DH and I do, so of course we have a dog that does as well


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## Duncan'sMom

DanielBMe said:


> What were the symptoms that lead the vet to believe that he's got seasonal allergies as opposed to a food based one?


Duncan has been sneezing more this last week and his eyes are runny. The vet said she has had an uptick of dogs the last week with allergies like this. Also, this started several weeks after the food change, so with no correlation to new food.

Duncan got a little better, and then back to square one this morning after trying to reintroduce his kibble gradually. I had used chicken thighs last night instead of breasts last night - she said that may have affected it too as it's more fatty. The vet's tech who I just spoke to suggested back to chix/rice only for a few more days with no treats/cheese/pb/etc. I am supposed to check in with the vet later this week to discuss his progress and possible food switch.

This process is so frustrating, but Duncan is loving his new diet of chicken. No idea how I will get him back to kibble!


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## Duncan'sMom

I already have an update! The vet called again, she suggested California Naturals lamb and rice and to start adding it gradually Sunday if things are looking good until then.

I just realized, of course after I got off the phone, that we tried a sample bag of that that he did not like. But I can't remember what flavor it was and I only tried it once, and he was refusing everything that week, so I don't think it was a fair try.

I'll let you know how it goes...


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## juliav

Jen,

I am glad that you took Duncan to the vet and that the stool sample came back negative, at least you know there is nothing wrong in that regard. I am surprised that the test was expensive. Whenever my guys are having problems with the stool and I feel it warrants a trip to the vet, I just drop off the sample and they check it. It only costs me $42 or $45 for the test and if it comes back negative, I don't need to bring anyone in and that's the end of the story.


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## Jill in Mich

Duncan'sMom said:


> Duncan has been sneezing more this last week and his eyes are runny. The vet said she has had an uptick of dogs the last week with allergies like this. Also, this started several weeks after the food change, so with no correlation to new food.


Just FYI, according to Tess' veterinary allergist, dogs do not show the same symptoms (sneezing, coughing, runny nose/eyes) as humans. Dogs allergic symptoms tend to lean to itchy skin (which displays itself in licking/chewing) and chronic ear infections.


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## Pixiesmom

I hope Duncan finds something that works for him. Allergies are so very hard to deal with. It's difficult to see your dog in discomfort. My mom's poor Tzu is 13 and has suffered for such a long time with allergies.


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## Duncan'sMom

I am just so confused and overwhelmed!

Duncan had been doing fine on the chicken and rice only, but is going back to where we started since I began introducing the California Naturals lamb and rice kibble on Sunday. I made sure to add it in very slowly, and he ate it happily, but his stool got looser by the day.

My vet is out of town until Tuesday and her replacement at the clinic suggested upping his fiber and use Dual Fiber Control kibble for one month before transitioning him back to puppy food. She also suggested something called diarsenal (Sp?) - it's a supplement for 3 days. I am supposed to pick it up later today.

I am not sure if that is the best choice but I just have no idea what else to do. He's doing so well besides this, and I hate feeling so helpless. 

And I also hate buying all of these different foods and none of them agreeing with him. Anyone in the Boston area need food? I have about 4 half-empty bags...

I think this may be a whiney post, but I just need someplace to vent about all of this...thanks for listening!


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## Missy

Jen, Believe me, I feel your pain and concern. Jasper was always a loose pooper. We checked everything out (time after time) and he was fine, so the vet just said "puppy's can have diahrea, try not to worry, he may grow out of it" That being said. at 3.5 yrs, after a nutritional consultation, he has never pooped better. He is eating NV RAW, a little raw turkey and some cooked green beans. He gets an acidophalus supplement, Fish Oil and vitamin B. And this fiber/auto-immune booster called Arabinogalactin Powder. It is from the larch tree.

If you are still feeling frustrated, consider contacting a canine nutritionist. Most Vets really know very little about nutrition and treat the problem not the source. A consultation with Sabine (who I used) is cheaper than all the food you have bought and wasted. She will ask you for a 12 page questionaire and you will get back 18 pages of info and a diet specifically for Duncan. She will work with what you want to feed, kibble, canned, raw, homecooked... but will likely try to convince you to at least used some canned with your kibble, she is available to answer any questions that arise from your consult, and if something isn't working she will work with you to adjust Duncan's diet. Again as in other posts , I know I seem to be advertising her, but I have no vested interest other than I truly think she is the real deal, knows her stuff, and is a wonderful resource. The info she provided turned both my boys around. They are much happier, Cash is leaner, Jasper is a better pooper and cross my paws, but it has been 7 weeks and he has not had to have his Anal Glands expressed. And I am spending much less money on food. I know what works and I'm sticking with it.

www.betterdogcare.com

or just write her at [email protected]

Good Luck and PM me if you want more info or if you want to bring Duncan over for a play date.


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## Eva

I'm coming into this kind of late but I wanted to say that I understand how hard and frustating that it can be when you are working with a sensitive stomach.
I went through a lot trying to find Todd a food that he would eat and that his body approved of. 
It took several months of research and sampling before we finally found his perfect match..he eats Innova Evo (rotates between red meat and chicken) and Orijen..sometimes we rotate and sometimes I mix them together.
I think that variety (once you find the right foods) is always a good thing and he loves the changes in his diet. 
He also gets raw once or twice a week and canned on occasion. 
He luckily outgrew his sensitive tummy (mostly) but he's still sensitive to grains and so we only feed grain free food/treats. 
I hope that Duncan gets over this soon (for your sake and his)


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## DanielBMe

Just a couple of things.

First regarding allergies. Typically food allergies will show themselves a bit differently than airborne allergies. This is a general rule.

*Food allergies. *
Typically a dog will scratch his neck, ears, face/muzzle. May also lick/chew the bottom of their paws (the pads). Your dog may also frequently try to rub it's face into the carpet. May also have to poop more frequently, up to 3 times a day. If it's a sever allergy you may even see vomitting.

If a dog has a food allergy, it can take up 1-3 months to see an improvement once you move to another meat source. A dog may not show signs of allergies to a food as soon as you start feeding it. It can take a few weeks.

*Airborne allergies.*
Typically your dog will scratch it's underarms/sides, ears, and chew it's legs or tops of paws (unlike food allergies, the pads). It's skin will also be inflammed, seem more redish/pinkish in color. 
Depending on what your dog is allergic to, it can be seasonal or last all year.

If your only symptom is soft poops or diarrhea then it's unlikely it's an allergy. It's more likely a sensitive stomach (ruling out any illness) and wrong food.

I know you are not sure about raw food, but if you buy the Nature's variety medalions, they are very easy to feed. They are simply little 1oz round medallions of raw meat with vegetables. Like little round donuts almost. It's not like a big juicy raw steak. Just defrost for 24hrs and put a few in Duncan's bowl. Try either the venison, lamb or beef. It's simple in ingredients intheir most natural form for feeding compared to kibble.

Bogart always had a very sensitive stomach. He never had a firm poop with any of them. The first day I switched to raw, his poops were immediately firm. I'm not joking either, I'm talking overnight!

I know you've spend a lot on all these different half eaten bags but at this point I would really try the NV medallions. Also a good pet food store will take the bag back if your dog does't like it. The store where I go, took back an 8lb bag of a package of raw duck that Bogart and Brando refused to eat. I thought I'd surprise them and give them something they hadn't had before. I think it was the only time they refused to eat their food. I took the bag back with one 8oz patty missing.

At this point you don't have much to lose but more to gain. I usually don't push feeding raw because I know not everyone is for it but this time I really think you may want to give it a try.


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## DanielBMe

> I"m not sure why Science Diet is considered a bad food


This might explain why.



> The first ingredient is a named meat product, in meal form. This is the sole meat product in the food.
> 
> The primary grain is brewers rice which is a low quality grain and by-product. Rice flour, the third ingredient, is a grain fragment and filler.
> 
> The fourth ingredient is wheat. The use of wheat is a significant negative: wheat is believed to be the number one cause of allergy problems in dog food. This is another ingredient we prefer not to see used at all in dog food.
> 
> Sorghum is a carbohydrate source low in digestibility. We consider it primarily filler. Corn gluten meal is another low quality ingredient. Corn is a problematic grain that is difficult for dogs to digest and thought to be the cause of a great many allergy and yeast infection problems. We prefer not to see this used in dog food. The AAFCO definition of corn gluten meal is "the dried residue from corn after the removal of the larger part of the starch and germ, and the separation of the bran by the process employed in the wet milling manufacture of corn starch or syrup, or by enzymatic treatment of the endosperm". In plain English, that which remains after all the nutritious bits have been removed.
> 
> Barley is a decent quality grain, but with six grains following the meat product, this starts to look like a very grain heavy food.
> 
> Animal fat is a further low quality ingredient and is impossible to determine the source. Unidentified ingredients are usually very low quality. AAFCO define this as "obtained from the tissues of mammals and/or poultry in the commercial processes of rendering or extracting. It consists predominantly of glyceride esters of fatty acids and contains no additions of free fatty acids. If an antioxidant is used, the common name or names must be indicated, followed by the words "used as a preservative".
> 
> Beet pulp is further filler and a controversial ingredient - it is a by-product, being dried residue from sugar beets which has been cleaned and extracted in the process of manufacturing sugar. It is a controversial ingredient in dog food, claimed by some manufacturers to be a good source of fibre, and derided by others as an ingredient added to slow down the transition of rancid animal fats and causing stress to kidney and liver in the process. We note that beet pulp is an ingredient that commonly causes problems for dogs, including allergies and ear infections, and prefer not to see it used in dog food. There are less controversial products around if additional fibre is required.
> 
> Soy is a poor quality source of protein in dog food, and a common cause of allergy problems. Some believe that it is the number 1 cause of food allergies in dogs (outstripping even wheat).


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## BeverlyA

I have been feeding Natural Balance Potato and Duck for well over a year because Duck was the only protein source I could find that my Maltese could handle. My Cooper would show signs of allergy whenever I tried them on Natures Variety, a quality product made locally. 

A couple weeks ago my friend Beth decided to try Evo red meat small bites with her Corgis so she sent a small baggie home with me. I handed it to them like treats and all four of my dogs LOVED it. So much so that I decided to give it a shot. Out of my four, two had very soft stools the first day, but I should have made a smaller percentage of Evo. All four of them will pick out the Evo bites and drop the Natural Balance bites on the floor next to their bowls. I'm now adding a bit of hot water to make a little "gravy" which they love even more. :hungry: We are at about 75% Evo now and having no tummy troubles at all.
This is the first time EVER that all four of my dogs do the happy dance at dinner time, happily eat every single bite of their food, and then check each others bowls for scraps.
It finally makes me feel good to be feeding a food that I trust to be good for them, that they also really enjoy.

Beverly


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## BeverlyA

Jen,

What I failed to mention in my previous post was that I struggled with problems that sound very similar to the ones you're having. It was my Maltese that didn't seem able to tolerate any store bought food. I was at the end of my rope until I found Natural Balance Potato and Duck small bites. 

I also used probiotics and yogurt with him. This food worked miracles for us, I know you've tried so many things, but you might give one more thing a try. I would sometimes wet the kibble with some hot water and they thought that was a really special treat!

Beverly


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## marjrc

DanielBMe said:


> Just a couple of things.
> First regarding allergies. Typically food allergies will show themselves a bit differently than airborne allergies. This is a general rule.
> 
> If your only symptom is soft poops or diarrhea then it's unlikely it's an allergy. It's more likely a sensitive stomach (ruling out any illness) and wrong food.


I totally agree with this. This is what we tell customers that come in to the store, wondering what kind of allergies their dogs have. They may have intolerances, and that is often digestive, or they may have actual food allergies.

Jen, I think I may have already mentioned this, but if you check out the ingdts. of certain foods at www.dogfoodanalysis.com you will see why most dogs will prefer the higher quality foods. They contain actual meat, and lots of it, which is what the dog needs. I would really stay away from the typical foods sold at the vets', such as Hills, Pedigree, Royal Canin, Medi-Cal, etc... If you are really at the point of not having a clue where to go next, I do like Missy's suggestion of consulting with a canine nutritionist. I've only heard good things about Sabine so it might be worth a shot. I know that it's often easiest, at this point, to just follow someone's instructions instead of trying to wrap the brain around all the advice and stuff you read and learn. So long as that someone is a good resource, then maybe you should go for it. 

Beverly, I'm glad the EVO seems to be a favorite at your house now. I had suggested it to Beth, not knowing if it would help her dog.


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