# Potty in Pen



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Hi y’all! I don’t know what I’d do without y’all right now and I know you’ve answered potty training questions until you feel you may find a nice corner to pee in yourselves! But.... overall Jojo is absolutely a dream puppy! Potty training is going mostly as expected but that really means not as well as I would like! My big question is; is it normal for her to pee in her pen? She doesn’t have accidents in her crate. I never with the exception of night time leave her in the crate longer than 2 hours. I use her pen when we leave the house and sometimes when we are home and just when I need to not watch her to get some things done. She’s never been left for longer than 3 hours anyplace. She ALWAYS pees in her pen!! Yesterday I left her with an indoor fake grass potty. I really don’t want her to potty in the house at all but figured if she was peeing in the pen anyway she may as well have a place to do it. In the three hours we were gone for breakfast and church she peed 6 times! Three on the potty and three off! Will she learn naturally not to go in her pen? Will the fake grass potty help or confuse her? She is very tiny! 13 weeks now but still only 2 1/2 lbs. Thank you!!!


----------



## Vartina Ancrum (Oct 10, 2019)

Hi there. She is definitely tiny. This also means she has a tiny bladder. Izzie is a little younger but larger. I understand how you feel about the potty inside of the house but make sure you are taking her outside on a regular schedule. I don't feel the fake grass is confusing her. Keep in mind 3 hours is a long time for a young puppy and especially with a tiny bladder. The older she gets the longer she will be able to hold. We are in this together. Don't feel like you are alone. I had to get some encouragement on another issue just yesterday. Puppyhood requires support and patience. Izzie uses a litterbox in her expen and I have an extra litter box in case she is playing and can't hop back in quick enough. I am taking her outside hourly to use the potty outside. Establish a schedule and stick to it as best as you can. Remember to take your puppy outside after sleeping, eating, and playing as well. I am no expert and I can't recall how long it took my other pups to be reliable. I do recall a lot of running outside day and night. It doesn't matter though because each puppy experience is different ( I am learning all over again). Congratulations on JoJo! 

Sounds like you have a Pee Pee Princess and I have a Baby Shark.:smile2:


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Thank you so much for your encouragement, Vartina! She’s left three hours only when we need to leave her. Mostly right now that’s just church as I don’t work outside my home and my husband is working from home and my son is home going taking his classes online. I look forward to being able to leave her in her pen, where she has a bit of room to play and I don’t need to have eyes on her and know she won’t potty! I love your baby shark and pee pee princess assessment! Ha ha! I think she will outgrow this. Patience and consistency! Right??


----------



## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

Molly was potty trained using a crate. She also never had an accident in the crate. I used a pen to give her more space when I couldn’t keep eyes on her every second, but not when I was expecting her to potty. That is where all her accidents happened. If you want to use the pen for extended periods of time you definitely need an indoor potty set up in there. At first you need to make the area smaller, until Jojo is using the tray all the time with no accidents. Then you can gradually enlarge the pen. Good luck!


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Thank you, Molly looks very little too! Jojo’s mom was 7 1/2 lbs and her dad 13. I think Jojo will end up much more like her mom. I think her tiny size has something to do with potty training but I don’t really know. She does have accidents outside the pen but they are rare as I take her out every 1/2 hour. I really don’t want her to potty inside at all but can see the use of the indoor potty for while she is little and we need to leave for longer. I don’t want her in her crate during the day for longer than 2 hours while she naps. Usually she’s there for about an hour or 1 1/2 hours; then out to potty, play, potty, eat and have tricks for treats, potty, back to crate for nap time, start again! That’s pretty much the cycle. But now after she’s been here for nearly a month we have some normal life things that require her to be left for a bit a couple times a week. Also I’d like her to see her pen as her room and use it as she grows as a place she can be comfortably if there are times I just need her out from underfoot from time to time and when we leave the house. I don’t see myself as ever being the type that could leave a dog to roam while I’m not home. Her pen is set up in a very large closet under the kitchen stairs. I sectioned off part of it with a gate and have all her puppy stuff on shelves in the front. The gate slates were to wide and she could walk right out so I just set up an expen in there. My kids say she’s like Harry Potter living in the cupboard under the stairs! Ha ha! It’s good for me to know Molly also has accidents in her pen!


----------



## Vartina Ancrum (Oct 10, 2019)

I use the crate for sleeping at night. However, I do have the litterbox in Izzie's expen. I like the idea of more space to play and move around. Izzie doesn't pees in her litterbox in the expen. I gave her too much freedom the other day and she peed under my table . We don't have carpet thank goodness but it was my fault.


----------



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

How big is it? I would try to configure the pen smaller, or leave her in the crate instead. If she’s okay in the crate for 2 hours, and you’ve left her that long s few times, I think you can push it to 3. 

If you decide to indoor train, now is the time, but she doesn’t need a space bigger than enough room to lay down and her potty tray. I’d consider placing the pad from her crate in the expen if you can, because she already does not want to pee on what you’re using in the crate. Don’t feel like you need to give her room to play when you use the expen. She’s not ready for it. The small space will help her feel secure while you’re gone, whether it’s in the crate or the expen. 

In general, if she’s still adjusting to being left alone, isn’t home alone often, or if she hears noise outside, she might not be able to hold it as long as she usually can. If she isn’t alone often, I’d try to schedule some time to get everyone out of the house, even if it’s just to go for a walk without her, to give her more practice. The accidents might be less of a problem if you decide to go with indoor potty, but it might be contributing and it’s good for her either way. 

If you do want her to use the indoor potty, I don’t think she’ll figure it out if it’s just there while you’re gone. Unless I misunderstood? I think indoor training is really useful, and I really suggest it if you can. It is easy to start taking her outside down the line, and it makes the first six months of potty training much easier. But in order for her to learn to use it, I think she needs consistent access to it. A lot of people take their dogs outside but have a potty tray for backup when they’re not home. But in that case, it’s an older puppy or dog has already learned how to use it. 

This is the hardest part! Potty training is a long road, but it won’t be like this the whole time. Once you have these things set up, it’ll be a much easier road to travel


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Thank you so much EvaElizabeth! These are great thoughts! I had thought of the pen as a place for her to play independently and learn to be alone. I can definitely configure it smaller. We left her in her crate at the hotel when we went out to dinner for 2 hours with no problem. Also I move her crate into her pen during the day always so she gets used to being there! I think she’s just not ready for the pen yet. The indoor potty is confusing ME even it not her ha ha!


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

I thought I’d post a pic of Jojo’s cupboard under the stairs and her pen set up with the potty in it. Though I’m thinking we won’t use the potty and wait a bit to leave the crate door open in her pen. When she’s older I will put a dog bed there and use a gate to make the closet smaller instead of the pen.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

You baby is WAY!! TOO YOUNG for you to expect him to be housebroken. It has NOTHING TO DO with the dog having a Tiny Bladder. Tiny dogs have Tiny Bladders. Big dogs have Big Bladders. All bladders work the same way.

*It will be almost a year or more* before your baby will be Truly Trustworthy and ONLY IF you are *VERY!! Consistent and Patient*.

Like EvaElizabeth I would recommend Indoor-Potty-Training. It is much easier and quicker. Later JoJo will go outside on his own and you'll also have the convenience of knowing if you can't get home or the dog can't get outside that JoJo will know where the potty tray is and will use it instead of peeing and pooping on the floor.

Lots!! of information on this site about Indoor-Potty-Training.

*Just saw your setup. There's too much room in the ex-pen and the puppy will not consistently use the potty tray with this set up. * Not sure what your plan is.... Good Luck!


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Thank you! I had NO thoughts that she should be housebroken at this point!! I absolutely expect a year of consistent work on this! I was looking for some advice on the indoor potty and use of a pen as tools to use to help with this long endeavor! I realized much from Eva, Molly and Vartina’s thoughts. I will make the pen smaller but don’t intend to use it for a while. I also am not going to use the indoor potty! I think we will do better with simple crate training for a while. Thank you for your thoughts!


----------



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

The indoor potty is kind of hard to wrap the mind around but the way it makes most sense to me, if the concept of crate training clicks with you, is to imagine the crate with the potty tray right next to it. That’s the size of the expen. You’d basically only use about 3 squares of the expen in a U shape to connect the potty tray and the crate and the rest of the expen would be folded up. the idea is really similar to crate training, because you want her to see her bed as her “house,” the only difference is she can either be in her house or in her potty, and it teaches her to understand what the potty is for. 

Regardless of whether you decide to crate train or indoor potty train with an expen, I think your problem will be solved by giving her a much smaller expen when you want to use it  Whenever you want her set up in the ex pen instead of the crate, just set it up so it’s about the size of the crate. If she’s not having accidents, then slowly extend it by about a “square” to give her a bit more space. Every puppy is different, but estimating how large the room is, I’d say my puppy definitely didn’t have that much room before 6 months, probably later because I was paranoid. Although, he did have more space in some rooms compared to others. She has to go through the same process in rooms she doesn’t spend much time in, to acclimate and view the room as part of her home, so keep that in mind. 

She is a tiny, tiny puppy! I would have to look it up to be sure but I swear my puppy was more than twice her size at the same age. I know they say it isn’t really about size, but I can’t help but think “that tiny bladder!” You’re right to give her time, just don’t give her space while you do it 

I would make the decision about indoor potty training carefully, but pretty soon. Your family is home now, so it’s manageable to crate train and take her potty, and if that’s what works for you that’s great. As you’re making your decision, though, I’d focus more on what you’ll need a year from now. If she needs to be taken out every 4 hours, and everyone is no longer at home, will you benefit from having her indoor potty trained? Travel is another consideration, as well as weather where you live. It’s really not hard, even though it definitely SEEMS like it, but it’s one of those things you have to do right from the beginning or it’s too late to teach. It’s the main reason I’m biased towards doing it, because you can always decide to stop indoor training at any time and just take her outside, but if you decide later you wish you had indoor trained, it’s not something you can go back and teach. There are tons of old threads about this you can look through, including what to use for the potty (pine pellets don’t smell but pads and other materials tend to smell). 

Also, be really careful what you use on your tile for the pee! 

She is so cute, I just adore her! She is going to love having that little cave in the Harry Potter cupboard under the stairs when she’s a bit older


----------



## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

Krista - I just wanted to add that I have used a crate to potty train my last two dogs and it does work. I did not use an indoor system at all.
It sounds like you are home enough and have a good plan for in and out of the crate time to be successful. I also have a tiled area that I use when I leave Molly for several hours. When she was a puppy and not fully trained I always confined her to the crate when I left her. Your area looks great but I would use the crate when leaving for now. I use an extra wide/extra tall babygate that works out well. It doesn’t have slats that a dog could fit through. I put her crate in there with the door open since that is where she prefers to sleep. Havanese are smart and I have also trained Molly to potty in an indoor set up I use for extreme weather conditions. Using a potty command helps in these situations.


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Thank you Molly and Eva! I’m going to give indoor training a bit more thought and research. Eva your tips are very useful no matter what! I don’t think I’ve realized HOW contained she needed to be! So glad to be learning now! I am definitely leaning more to crate training and pee on command as Molly talked about. I think we are already heading in that direction as Jojo goes every time she’s taken out right away. She even pops a squat without any pee. She turns and looks at me “Am I a good girl? Do I get a treat?” Ha Ha! Smarty! “Yes ma’am you do!!” Molly, I love that gate and am going to look for one! Eva do you have any recommendations about cleaners?? I’m using Natures Miracle. I think you can see in the pic I bought the industrial size! The floors are like brick or terra-cotta they are not glazed. We also have hand scraped hardwoods downstairs. Again thank you sooo much!!!


----------



## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

Hi All, great advice on potty training! Desi is 14 weeks old and potty training Is going fairly well as long as I am on top of his schedule. We are using the strictly outdoors method. Desi is in his crate when left at home but no longer than 2 hours. We only use the pen when he has already gone to the bathroom and I can’t supervise him. He has very regular bathroom habits so it has been easy taking him out. First thing in the morning, 15 minutes after eating, and every hour in between. We have had a few accidents in the house but they were my fault not his. I just keep reminding myself that Patience is key during the puppy phase.


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Sounds like you are doing wonderfully, Faith! I think I got a little confused along the way.... probably reading too many different things! I think we are back on track now; thanks to the great advice here! Jojo is more of an every 1/2 hour girl! But I’m sure over time she will be able to wait a bit longer! She can go 2 hours in the crate and waited 3+ on the plane ride to and from CA! Quite impressive!


----------



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Where I had the most trouble was actually in the garage, on the concrete floor, so it’s not exactly the same. Since it’s a multipurpose space, and you may have cleaned the floor with other products, they can make the enzymatic cleaner less effective, especially if the tile is porous. If she’s peeing in the same spots, I’d try some extra treatments of the cleaner.

I treated the garage floor right away (it is sealed but I’m not sure that means much) but I should have gone back and saturated it a couple more times over the next couple of days. There wasn’t a smell, but the problem is that some floors are so porous, there doesn’t seem to be a smell, but the puppy can still smell the traces of it, which I learned when he peed in the same spot. Most people know this with carpet but I guess I hadn’t really considered it with hard floors. If I was doing it again, I’d treat the floor a couple more times even if it doesn’t smell like pee. I did this in my basement and he has never peed there again but he’s gone like 6 times in the garage, which is a finished workspace. It’s just easy to assume that because it’s a hard floor (or even with sealed porous flooring or grout) that everything has been wiped up and sprayed so it’s fine. I don’t think it works unless it feels like you’re wasting the product  

Nature’s miracle was okay. I switched to the Icky Poo that Karen recommended when we had marking incidents over a couple of weeks and needed to deep clean the carpets. I thought it worked better, but it made me cough really bad. About a year ago I bought Skout’s Honor and it doesn’t make me cough as much, but I dont use it enough to know if it’s better or worse. I used it by the back door a few months ago on a seam in the wood floor planks and it seemed to work.


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Thank you, Eva! She doesn’t seem to be going to the same spots (except the pen). I’m going to douse down her pen spot and just let it dry overnight a couple of times! I’ve been concerned about the tile being porous! I always leave the Natures Miracle for as long as posdible and don’t wipe it up. I have NM cleaner for the wood floors too but so far no accidents on those as she’s not allowed out of the kitchen much except just to pass through and usually I carry her!


----------



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Actually I just realized the Rocco and Roxie is the one that doesn’t make me cough. I just saw it on Amazon Prime and recognized the bottle. After double checking pictures of all the bottles, both Icky Poo and Skout’s Honor worked but I’m sensitive to something about both. I don’t even think I finished using the Skout’s Honor, I bought the Rocco and Roxie instead and it doesn’t bother me as much. I do have reactivity to allergens but I use pretty typical household cleaners that aren’t problematic, and I’m not usually reactive to chemicals at all. Both of those enzymatic cleaners can make me start coughing from the next room. They all worked on pee, though.


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Eva your so kind to take the time to post all of this for me thank you so much!!! Honestly I’m going to try them all! I’m not too sensitive but willing try anything that works! The kitchen floors are very durable! Before Jojo I used a bleach solution and my floor steamer. They are the only place in the house I use bleach! It’s just too harsh for the other natural stone we have!


----------



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Well it sounds like you have it figured out better than I did anyway, I would just feel bad if someone with terrible allergies had the same problem I did with the enzymatic cleaner  

I love to use steam on my floors, too! When we installed our floor they said not to use it but it just smells so good, and never like cleaner, and it gets the floor so clean! I just move it around quickly so the steam doesn’t have time to hurt the finish. Hopefully I won’t regret it in a couple of years!


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

I use steam on the brick, the wood, the ceramic and the marble!! I love it! I feel it cleans really well and disinfects and helps me use less chemicals. I’ve never had a problem with the finish on any surface. I hope I am cleaning the potty accidents well! I’m grateful for your suggestions!!


----------



## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

Krista, Hang in there and don’t over think the process. JoJo will get the idea soon.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

We stay a A LaQuinta Hotel in Trinidad, CO. that allows Pets in some of their rooms. The rooms are very nice and comfortable. There's no pet odors that we can detect. And, whenPatti comes in the room she smells around like a little but isn't overly interested in the smelling the room. She's never even acted like she wanted to pee on an area in the room.... unlike she does when we walk her outside, she gets busy marking where other dogs have peed and is very excited about smelling around.

I've often wondered what LaQuinta uses to deodorize pet smells. Even if the dogs don't pee in the room they usually leave their odors.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> We stay a A LaQuinta Hotel in Trinidad, CO. that allows Pets in some of their rooms. The rooms are very nice and comfortable. There's no pet odors that we can detect. And, whenPatti comes in the room she smells around like a little but isn't overly interested in the smelling the room. She's never even acted like she wanted to pee on an area in the room.... unlike she does when we walk her outside, she gets busy marking where other dogs have peed and is very excited about smelling around.
> 
> I've often wondered what LaQuinta uses to deodorize pet smells. Even if the dogs don't pee in the room they usually leave their odors.


I've notices the same when we have our dogs in hotels. While our dogs are well potty trained, I do NOT trust ANY dog not to mark where they can twll other dogs have marked before. And I KNOW how much weaker human noses are than dog noses! So I watch my dogs like a HAWK in any new hotel room!!! I have NEVER had a problem in a hotel. I NEVER see my dogs sniffing at specific spots. So they use SOMETHING good!

OTOH, I have been in SEVERAL homes where people have told me that their dogs are COMPLETELY potty trained (always toy dog breeds, interestingly enough!) in several cases, I've had a TERRIBLE tome with both Pixel and Panda wanting to mark! To the point that I ALWAYS bring diapers with me for the girls when going to another home where there are small dogs. If they are there for an hour and don't mark, I know we are safe. But I won't take a chance of them getting away with marking in someone's house.


----------



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Mikki said:


> I've often wondered what LaQuinta uses to deodorize pet smells. Even if the dogs don't pee in the room they usually leave their odors.


I think they must use some kind of commercial product, it would be great to know what it is. What I especially wonder is how they catch them. When my puppy started marking behind the door it was such a small amount, I didn't realize that's what he was doing for a couple of days. It didn't smell, either, until I was right up close to it and started cleaning it.

I have also wondered if products designed for urine incontinence work for dog accidents, and if they're the same enzyme repackaged for a different use.


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Thanks for the encouragement, Faith!


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I think they must use some kind of commercial product, it would be great to know what it is. What I especially wonder is how they catch them. When my puppy started marking behind the door it was such a small amount, I didn't realize that's what he was doing for a couple of days. It didn't smell, either, until I was right up close to it and started cleaning it.
> 
> I have also wondered if products designed for urine incontinence work for dog accidents, and if they're the same enzyme repackaged for a different use.


Black light.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I think they must use some kind of commercial product, it would be great to know what it is. What I especially wonder is how they catch them. *When my puppy started marking behind the door it was such a small amount, I didn't realize that's what he was doing for a couple of days.* It didn't smell, either, until I was right up close to it and started cleaning it.
> 
> I have also wondered if products designed for urine incontinence work for dog accidents, and if they're the same enzyme repackaged for a different use.


*When people say their Havanese is trained within a few weeks or months I always think: You just haven't found the wet spots yet.* :laugh2:

Maybe it's the carpeting hotels use that doesn't absorb odors or urine. Even in the hallways Patti isn't interested in smelling or marking. She's very interested in the dogs in the hallways or rooms but isn't interested in smelling around. However, the moment I open the outside door she's very excited about the smells and starts marking.

Commercial carpet cleaners would know about products that kill urine smells but the ones I've used say they don't have anything that totally eliminates smells to the point a dog can't smell it.

Due to age, out of desperation we wanted to break up a long 14-hour trip to the Rocky Mountains and a friend who owns Golden Retrievers told us they stayed over at La Quinta. I was skeptical about staying in a room that allowed pets but it's been a good experience at La Quinta in Trinidad.

After my first experience with Patti in Petco on a leash she now rides in a cart. There's a sign that says:_ "It's OK if your Dog Pees on the Floor." _It's NOT OK with me. :surprise:


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> *When people say their Havanese is trained within a few weeks or months I always think: You just haven't found the wet spots yet.* :laugh2:
> 
> Maybe it's the carpeting hotels use that doesn't absorb odors or urine. Even in the hallways Patti isn't interested in smelling or marking. She's very interested in the dogs in the hallways or rooms but isn't interested in smelling around. However, the moment I open the outside door she's very excited about the smells and starts marking.
> 
> ...


Because we've travelled a LOT with our dogs for shows and trials, we've stayed in a bunch of different pet-friendly hotels. And, honestly, we haven't had a problem anywhere. We do bring a king sized sheet to throw over the bed so we don't have to worry about hair, hair DEBRIS or foot prints on bedding, and we always put a litter box in the bathroom unless it's a first floor room with a slider. (in which case, a flexi is a GREAT tool for allowing them access to the bushes right outside the door! LOL!)



Mikki said:


> After my first experience with Patti in Petco on a leash she now rides in a cart. There's a sign that says:_ "It's OK if your Dog Pees on the Floor." _It's NOT OK with me. :surprise:


That's pretty gross. The one near us says something like "We know accidents can happen, please clean up after your pet." and has cleaning stations. So at least they don't make it sound like they condone a free-for-all! LOL! I never put my puppies on the floor in a pet store until they were WELL into potty training, and training in general. But at that point, it becomes a great place for distraction training. If you can heel, with attention, on a loose leash, up and down between piles of dog food bags, you can do it anywhere! LOL!


----------



## Cabber23 (Sep 21, 2020)

Hey Guys, I've read through the comments and have already taken the suggestion of reducing the size of the pen last night (see pics). The problem we're having is that Taco loves to chew the Pee Pads. I bought a pad holder on amazon and that made it worse. I've read about the dog litter/pellet box and have been researching real (www.poochpatch.ca) and fake grass options as well. My fear is that he'll eat the fake grass and dig in the real grass...lol! We've been leaving the crate door open overnight in case we don't get up to take him out, so at least he can go on the pad, which he usually does. Ideally I'd like an option where the pee can be soaked up and poop easily picked up. This solution would be used for inside and for the backyard covered patio area during rain and snow days, as the rest of our backyard is completely landscaped (no grass/all stone, pool and gardens), so the front lawn is our only option right now. All suggestions welcome, thanks!


----------



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

krandall said:


> Black light.


I would not want to be the person that has to use the black light before cleaning the hotel room....


----------



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Cabber23 said:


> Hey Guys, I've read through the comments and have already taken the suggestion of reducing the size of the pen last night (see pics). The problem we're having is that Taco loves to chew the Pee Pads. I bought a pad holder on amazon and that made it worse. I've read about the dog litter/pellet box and have been researching real (www.poochpatch.ca) and fake grass options as well. My fear is that he'll eat the fake grass and dig in the real grass...lol! We've been leaving the crate door open overnight in case we don't get up to take him out, so at least he can go on the pad, which he usually does. Ideally I'd like an option where the pee can be soaked up and poop easily picked up. This solution would be used for inside and for the backyard covered patio area during rain and snow days, as the rest of our backyard is completely landscaped (no grass/all stone, pool and gardens), so the front lawn is our only option right now. All suggestions welcome, thanks!


Pine pellets! They seriously check all of your boxes. You can find them at places like Tractor Supply and at "urban farming" places in any city. They come in a big bag but if you live in an apartment or someplace where it's difficult to store them, even if you give away half of the bag, it's still a lot cheaper than pee pads or the grass options and it doesn't smell at all.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Cabber23 said:


> Hey Guys, I've read through the comments and have already taken the suggestion of reducing the size of the pen last night (see pics). The problem we're having is that Taco loves to chew the Pee Pads. I bought a pad holder on amazon and that made it worse. I've read about the dog litter/pellet box and have been researching real (www.poochpatch.ca) and fake grass options as well. My fear is that he'll eat the fake grass and dig in the real grass...lol! We've been leaving the crate door open overnight in case we don't get up to take him out, so at least he can go on the pad, which he usually does. Ideally I'd like an option where the pee can be soaked up and poop easily picked up. This solution would be used for inside and for the backyard covered patio area during rain and snow days, as the rest of our backyard is completely landscaped (no grass/all stone, pool and gardens), so the front lawn is our only option right now. All suggestions welcome, thanks!


This is a much better set up. When Taco gets a little bigger and figures out to use the potty tray you can expand the ex-pen.

Equine Horse Pellets (Pine Pellets) is the best thing you can use in a potty tray as they absorb urine odor. I spent a fortune on numerous different types of potty trays with grates on the top and the Equine Pellets worked in all of them.

I placed our ex-pen next of our kitchen-family room area. There were two doorways into this room. The ex-pen door opened up into the room and blocked one door way and we gated the second door way. Patti then could wonder in and out of her ex-pen, interact with the family and play and was confined to ONE room. We always had Eyes On Her when she was out of the ex-pen. When we got busy and could watch her she was locked inside the ex-pen.

The ex-pen is also a Mental Health LifeSaver when they are going through the Biting Stage or becomes a Pain to deal with. To gain control we could easily Give Her a Brief Time by placing her in the ex-pen. Patti loved her ex-pen because that was where all her goodies were...toys, food, water and potty tray.

This ex-pen is 3ft x 6ft. At first I had Two Potty Trays to take up space. After Patti got a little bigger and figured out the potty tray I removed the second so she would have more space.

These photos were taken before Patti arrived. In the photo is only one potty tray with Fake Grass. I soon abandoned that idea as it Smelled Terrible!!! I tried about everything. If you get a potty tray that has a grate on top Taco won't be able to get inside to tear up the paper pad or anything else you have inside the tray.

Patti got hot in the crate in the photo, didn't sleep in it and we soon removed it because she climbed on top of it and would have been able to jump. Patti preferred sleeping on the floor with a thin blanket.

At night we had a large wire crate in the bedroom where she slept .... until she was about 6 months old and then she ended up in our bed. :smile2: She slept all night in our bed and didn't get out of the bed until I got up her in the a.m. She was not allowed free access to rooms until she was 10 months old. Then she was allowed only access to three rooms. This was after we knew she was Trustworthy and would use the potty tray.


----------



## Vartina Ancrum (Oct 10, 2019)

I like the litter box with pine pellets. I agree there is no odor. I have two litter boxes. It is very nice when the weather is bad outside. I never had luck with pee pads because all the dogs in my family ripped them up or used them as blankets.


----------



## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

We use a litter box (tray with pellets underneath) and she picked it up fast. She's 19 weeks and while I don't TRUST her, we've been pretty error proof using an indoor system with my eyes on her CONSTANTLY when she's out of the pen. She will also pee outdoors when we're out but using the indoor method I don't have to get up early to take her out. She goes on the tray and hops back in bed with us. Since she caught on to the tray immediately (breeder had been using shavings and I just sprinkled them on the tray) I now put one OUT of the pen for when she's playing, still watching carefully. I'm more concerned about her getting too excited playing on the carpet and peeing there without me seeing than the pen. She's literally never missed that, but I did keep the area VERY small till a few weeks ago. And we have a setup in our bedroom that is still very small, as all she uses it for is sleep and potty. Training is very doable but the key is to NOT allow accidents to happen. Which you can do by confining your dog. Good luck!


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

*HAVING A PARTY & TREATS:* Every time Taco uses the Potty Tray Have a Party and give him a Treat!! Good Boy!! Taco!

Soon he will learn to look up for a Treat as he goes to the Potty Tray. Do this for Months!

When taking Taco outside DON'T treat him for going potty outside. Let him play and if he potties outside don't make a fuss over it. Focus on Indoor-Potty Training and give Treats! along with Praise. After Taco matures and is Trustworthy in knowing where his potty tray is in the house he'll eventually decide to potty outside on his own.

Puppies don't like to pee and poop where they sleep, eat and play and will naturally use a potty tray: If you set the situation up for that to happen. They need to be confined and kept in one area until they learn going in a Potty Tray results in lots of Praise and Treats and needs to start when they are only weeks old.

It's easy to get lazy and think the puppy is indoor-potty trained and allow them freedom to roam around the house. Big Mistake! Although, Indoor or outdoor potty training can have quick results ..... it takes a long while before they can be turned loose to roam as they please. Havanese are Highly trainable and want to please but don't expect Taco to be 100% Trustworthy for at least a year. While he might be trustworthy in one room area, you can't turn him loose and expected to know what to do.

*PATIENCE, PERSISTENCE, PRAISE.*...It's exhausting being a Puppy Mom but it pays off after if you can stick with a plan. You've got a lot of puppy stages ahead but around 10-months Taco will settle down a bit and things will start getting easier.

Keep checking in with this forum as things change. More than once I thought: *What the Hell was I thinking getting a puppy.*

But the forum helped us ALL get through the tough puppy stages and we NOW have a clownish, entertaining, loveable well-manner adult dog the whole family adores.

Patti prefers doing her job outside but uses the potty tray during inclement weather or when she can't get out. We go to the mountains during the summer months we stay in a small three! story townhome, with NO YARD.

We don't have to worry about rushing out early in the morning and late at night to walk her three or four times a day or if we leave for the day: Patti can Do Her Job on her indoor-potty tray.

Initially, I had a hard time getting my head around a dog using an indoor-potty tray like a cat uses - as I'd never heard of such a thing and all my other dogs were trained to go outside. At first I tried outdoor housebreaking but I quickly switched my attitude when I figured out how hard that was going to be.

Indoor-potty training is much easier and later very convenient. :smile2:


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Can I say that I LOVE that we have such a great group of puppy potty trainers on this group now, who really GET the important parts and ar so willing to help new puppy people get started with litter box training?!?!?

We all know that it is completely possible to entirely possible to do “outdoor only” potty training of Havanese. It’s also more time consuming, fristrating, and more prone to accidents. (It CAN be done in an errorless fashion, but very few manage it!) It makes my heart happy that so many people have figured this out are getting it right and can share with others!


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

krandall said:


> Can I say that I LOVE that we have such a great group of puppy potty trainers on this group now, who really GET the important parts and ar so willing to help new puppy people get started with litter box training?!?!?
> 
> We all know that it is completely possible to entirely possible to do "outdoor only" potty training of Havanese. It's also more time consuming, fristrating, and more prone to accidents. (It CAN be done in an errorless fashion, but very few manage it!) It makes my heart happy that so many people have figured this out are getting it right and can share with others!


I owe my Learning How Tos from you .... as do most of us. Thanks!!! :x

What a Great Idea ... I know it started with Tom King.


----------



## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

krandall said:


> Can I say that I LOVE that we have such a great group of puppy potty trainers on this group now, who really GET the important parts and ar so willing to help new puppy people get started with litter box training?!?!?
> 
> We all know that it is completely possible to entirely possible to do "outdoor only" potty training of Havanese. It's also more time consuming, fristrating, and more prone to accidents. (It CAN be done in an errorless fashion, but very few manage it!) It makes my heart happy that so many people have figured this out are getting it right and can share with others!


I am an indoor potty convert LOL. Not that I didn't try with Oliver but I gave up fast. I STILL have to walk him for a long time to get him to poop some days. I discovered that at almost 2 he will now signal even if he doesn't go on the walk. Problem is his signal is jumping all over you and nipping, which can be misinterpreted as wanting to play. But if he PERSISTS it means he has to go. I wish for one of those dogs who scratches at the door! Still it was 6 months of us taking him out every 2 hours to avoid accidents. With her, I don't take her out unless I really plan to walk or play outside. I do think it's partially her. He was a pain with the potty tray. He'd pee beside it. She never has. I was OVERJOYED to get a puppy like her and in no way do I take credit for it.

(side eye to those parents whose toddlers potty train early and they have alllll the advice. uh uh. I have 6 kids and some really are easier without interference LOL):wink2:


----------



## Cabber23 (Sep 21, 2020)

Thanks for all the great feedback! Anyone have recommendations as to which litter box and tray/grid? I live east of Toronto, ON, so I'm looking online at Amazon stuff, and at local PetSmart, Renpets stores.
Taco loves to chew on mulch and bark outside so, I want to try and have a system he can't break into! lol Thanks!

For pellets I've found: (Plus a ton of stuff on Amazon for Cats)
https://www.homehardware.ca/en/40lb-bedding-wood-pellets/p/5225002
https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/softwood-pellets-40-lb-0642778p.html


----------



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Melissa Woods said:


> (side eye to those parents whose toddlers potty train early and they have alllll the advice. uh uh. I have 6 kids and some really are easier without interference LOL):wink2:


DD is a year younger than DS and I hadn't even tried potty training with her because he was so far away, and I'd tried a few times with DS and it was an utter failure. I'd heard people say kids basically potty train themselves when they're ready but there were all of these potty trained 2 year olds in our neighborhood and they kept telling me all the things I should try so I thought I was doing something wrong. Sure enough, DD jumped on the potty one day and never looked back. DH came home from work early because I had to go buy her underwear, I was so unprepared. That's when I realized I needed to take DS to the doctor, and sure enough, he needed bladder medication and a ton of medical support.

Maybe it made me more patient with our puppy, I don't know. I did go into it knowing it was going to take a long time, that his body wasn't mature, and it's not worth it to rush.


----------



## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> DD is a year younger than DS and I hadn't even tried potty training with her because he was so far away, and I'd tried a few times with DS and it was an utter failure. I'd heard people say kids basically potty train themselves when they're ready but there were all of these potty trained 2 year olds in our neighborhood and they kept telling me all the things I should try so I thought I was doing something wrong. Sure enough, DD jumped on the potty one day and never looked back. DH came home from work early because I had to go buy her underwear, I was so unprepared. That's when I realized I needed to take DS to the doctor, and sure enough, he needed bladder medication and a ton of medical support.
> 
> Maybe it made me more patient with our puppy, I don't know. I did go into it knowing it was going to take a long time, that his body wasn't mature, and it's not worth it to rush.


I never even try potty training till 3. Sometimes I push it later if they resist. Last thing you want is a battle.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> I owe my Learning How Tos from you .... as do most of us. Thanks!!! :x
> 
> What a Great Idea ... I know it started with Tom King.


Yes, I'd never even heard of it before learning it from the Kings when I was getting Kodi!


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Melissa Woods said:


> I am an indoor potty convert LOL. Not that I didn't try with Oliver but I gave up fast. I STILL have to walk him for a long time to get him to poop some days. I discovered that at almost 2 he will now signal even if he doesn't go on the walk. *Problem is his signal is jumping all over you and nipping, which can be misinterpreted as wanting to play. But if he PERSISTS it means he has to go. I wish for one of those dogs who scratches at the door!* Still it was 6 months of us taking him out every 2 hours to avoid accidents. With her, I don't take her out unless I really plan to walk or play outside. I do think it's partially her. He was a pain with the potty tray. He'd pee beside it. She never has. I was OVERJOYED to get a puppy like her and in no way do I take credit for it.
> 
> (side eye to those parents whose toddlers potty train early and they have alllll the advice. uh uh. I have 6 kids and some really are easier without interference LOL):wink2:


LOL!! Once upon a Time I taught one of my dogs to Bark to go outside. I took her too the door and I would Bark .. Arf! Arf! Arf! then open the door.

No Kidding it Worked! >

Patti intuitively taught herself to Scratch Gently at the Door. I'd prefer she DID NOT scratch but she does it so gently it hasn't caused much damage and I decided not to try and train her to Bark ...* Arf! Arf! Arf!* LOL!!

My mother claimed I was House Broken at 9 months!! So, when my kids weren't trained until they were a year (maybe two years old) ... well I just didn't do it right.

Then my grandkids came along and I'm sure they were housebroken by the time they went to school. :laugh2: Seems like the age of housebreaking kids keeps getting older.

Actually, I think throw away diapers have had a lot to do with extending the time of Housebreaking kids. I had to wash diapers and it's a Big Motivator to Housebreak kiddos. :wink2:

I had a washer and dryer, along with a laundry service for a short while. A Baby Gift from a thoughtful person. My mother probably had to hang diapers outside on a clothes line. :Cry:

However, Pampers came out when I had my second child. I remember someone coming to my door and offering Free Pampers to try them out. What a wonderful Invention.....


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

*@Mellissa Woods* ....

You could train Oliver to ring a Bell to go outside.

What is your set up? Do you have Fenced yard? Another option is a Doggie Door. I've used them for many years with all my dogs. Before that my mother used Doggie Doors. She even had a set up where her dogs went out through a utility room door, into the garage and then out of the garage into the yard. At that time she had a Tiny Toy Poodle and a Giant Poodle. Our doggie door works for a Golden-Doodle and our Little the Dog from Cuba. _Patti, also, paws or barks to go out other doors to the back yard. _

I know some there are people who don't like them or are afraid of them but they work if you're interested in the option and is workable in your situation. Before we put a fence in, I had a radio fence around the house and live on 11 acres and have never had a problem with using a doggie door. The problem was the Radio Fence. Sometimes it went off and the dogs often caught on before I did and wandered out._ Oops_! One reason we put up a fence.

_OT ... On 11 acres we didn't like the idea of fencing but I love! having a fence. It keeps lots of critters out of the such as Deer and now I grow flowers and have an herb garden.
_


----------



## Cabber23 (Sep 21, 2020)

So I went with 2 options...pan with pellets and a pad holder with a grid. Started with the grid last night...so far it's been a hit with Taco! Only 1 missed pee and a half & half poop! lol
This has cut down on torn up Pee Pads and overuse of paper towel! (Not sure why my pics upload sideways, as I always rotate them and save them before posting)


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

*LOOKING GOOD!!!*

I turned your pictures around. Are these shot with an iPhone? Seems like iPhone pictures are prone to being sideways. Not sure why pictures show up like that. This website likes .jpg files.

The Equine Pellets will fit inside your the potty tray with the grid on top. I have several of these and you only need one layer of pellets. You don't have to cover the entire tray or tightly pack the tray with pellets. The pellets expand when the dog pees on them.

When cleaning the potty tray I throw out all the pellets and put in new ones.

Tom King uses a trays *without grid tops* like shown in your picture. The problem with that tray is the dog's feet and fur will pick up pellets and dust which ends end on the floor. With this type of tray you can scoop out the used pellets and just add more. Does it come with a grid for it?

You puppy is young and small but as he gets bigger the paper pads will Stink! quickly. The pellets will absorb the odor.


----------



## Cabber23 (Sep 21, 2020)

Thanks Mikki! I'll make sure to use the pellets in that tray once I'm done with our supply of pee pads. Hopefully this is the start of trend for our little guy to being fully house trained in year 1!


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Cabber23 said:


> Thanks Mikki! I'll make sure to use the pellets in that tray once I'm done with our supply of pee pads. Hopefully this is the start of trend for our little guy to being fully house trained in year 1!


Paper pads can be a convenience if you're going to be someplace overnight and take a potty tray. I still have some for Just In Case. A lot more convenient than trying to haul pellets around on those situations.

Looks like you're off to a good start. Taco will probably catch on right away, especially when he knows he's going to get a Treat when using the potty tray. We had a few accidents but were so diligent about watching Patti, when we saw her squat she was quickly picked up and put on the potty tray. That happened when she was playing and the tray was across the room from her (maybe 10 or 12 feet), but she was a quick learner.

When she was a little older maybe 2 months or more, I introduced her to another room - our TV room. I put another potty tray in that room, put a leash on Patti and gated that room off. While watching TV ... Patti played with toys on leash and I'd walk her over to the potty tray and say, Do Your Job....then gave her a treat when she went. I, also, put a bowel of water next to the tray as an enticement. After a couple of weeks of doing this, I took the leash off and she was good about using the potty tray. One time she squatted .... but I caught her. Clapped my hands, picked her up and put on the potty tray.

Then..the next room was in our Master Bedroom and I went through the same routine. First Leashing. Adding a potty tray in the bathroom next to a water bowel. That room is larger so it took me a little longer to trust her.

After 10-months I got the nerve up to open up two rooms she could go back and forth in from the TV room to our bedroom, always aware of what she was doing. Then I added the third room. I leashed her to me or an item of furniture if I was distracted.

I slowly moved potty trays around the house eventually removing all but two. On is now tucked under the desk in the TV room and the other is in our MB Bathroom.

At one time my house was an obstacle course with Six Gates up around the house.

We still use a couple of gates. One is to our grandsons room because these little dogs are like Curious Cats and are into everything. At 2.5 years, Patti still checks out all the garbage cans and is on top of the kids desks to see if there's anything she'd be interested in playing with..._Like Expensive Ear Buds._

Another gate is sometimes used to block her off from our daughters area of the house who has a Golden-Doodle. Our daughter works from home and Patti can be a pest sometimes wanting attention. Those two gates are up and down depending on what's going on.

For me those puppy months was an exhausting experience. But, they ended and we don't have soiled carpets or ruined furniture and have a well-mannered, fun loving adorable dog.

Now that I've been through it probably wouldn't be so exhausting. Trying to figure things out and not exactly sure of what I was doing made things worst than they had to be ... in my mind. :laugh2:

Thank Goodness for Karen and all the others on this website who got me through it. Eva, Mudpuppy, Melissa, Tom Kings Pellet Invention and numerous others I'm blanking on at this moment that would chime in with advice. :tea:


----------



## Vartina Ancrum (Oct 10, 2019)

The pellets are awesome. No stinky odor. Although I do have a playful girl who kicks the pellets out of the litter box to get attention sometimes.


----------



## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

I'm late to the party, but I just wanted to say that Shama has a 2 by 6-foot ex pen tucked under our kitchen island. When she was little, she had a crate and 



 in her pen. I should have made a note of when she stopped using the training tray resulting in us swapping it out for a fluffy bed. Now she sleeps in the fluffy bed and only occasionally goes into her crate. She used to spend much of the day in her pen while DH and I were at our teaching jobs. Now DH is teaching from home so she's out more. We love our Pupperton pen because we can take it with us whenever we travel. Good luck to everyone with their potty training. It is definitely key to expand their space GRADUALLY.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

ShamaMama said:


> I'm late to the party, but I just wanted to say that Shama has a 2 by 6-foot ex pen tucked under our kitchen island. When she was little, she had a crate and this training tray in her pen. I should have made a note of when she stopped using the training tray resulting in us swapping it out for a fluffy bed. Now she sleeps in the fluffy bed and only occasionally goes into her crate. She used to spend much of the day in her pen while DH and I were at our teaching jobs. Now DH is teaching from home so she's out more. We love our Pupperton pen because we can take it with us whenever we travel. Good luck to everyone with their potty training.
> 
> * It is definitely key to expand their space GRADUALLY*.


ShamaMama ... your Pupperton Pen website is a great resource. I bought two Richell ex-pens which are similar but different. Didn't realize there was another resource. I no longer use my ex-pens and need to find a home for them.

We leave Patti in our bedroom if no one's home. Because of COVID the grandkids have been home since March and daughter works from home. DH and I are retired and are home more than usual during these COVID days.

It's going to be a SHOCK! :surprise: to Patti when everyone goes back to work.

She's *LOVIN'* :cheer2: everyone being around ALL DAY LONG!

Below are photos of the Richell Potty Tray Shama linked to, as well as, a Byless Potty Tray. It, also, comes in a neutral brown color. PetCo also carries this tray.

The Bylss Potty Tray is smaller than the Richell. The pellets are an easier fit inside this tray because it's a tad bit deeper and the way it clamps down. However, the Richell tray is a better size if you have the room.

I use the Bylss tray in our MB Bathroom beside a stool. The Richell is too large for that area. The Richell is a better size for our 15lb Havanese than the Bylss but the Bylss works in the area where we have it.

I have the Richell Tray under an office desk in another room and use them in a vacation home.

*OTOH....if I had a Do Over.... I would consider using a Cat Type of Litter box with a Grate on top because it has sides on it. Male dogs sometimes Hike their legs to pee. It would, also, help keep the puppy/dog inside the tray. *


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 25, 2020)

*All *- My breeder began training Coco to a litter box when she was 3 weeks old (now 14 weeks). She will naturally use it, but prefers to go outside. I use pine (Horse Bedding) pellets from Tractor Supply. They are very reasonable in price ($6.00 for 40 pounds - a lot better than buying at the pet store). If you change pellet brands, I understand its best to begin mixing some of the new pellets with the old and gradually replace. As others mentioned with pine pellets their is no smell and easy to clean up and replace. When wet they change to a small pile of sawdust which gets scooped out whenever I see it. Once a week I completely empty the pan by sifting them through a fry basket I purchased at Ace Hardware. You can also get this basket at Amazon. I then add a few new scoops of pellets to the original.

When she first came home, I "sweetened the box" with some used pellets that the breeder gave me. The litter box has a lower side which helps with young puppies. The sides are 4-5 inches high so litter stays confined to the box.

Here are a few links to what I use that may be helpful:

Litter Box = https://www.petco.com/shop/en/petcostore/product/so-phresh-dog-litter-box-small-2745516
Pellets = https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/tractor-supply-pine-pellet-stall-bedding-40-lb
Fry Basket = Sorry! Something went wrong!


----------



## Vartina Ancrum (Oct 10, 2019)

Coco is such a cutie. I get my pellets from the Tractor Supply Store too. Izzie uses it regularly and we are training for outside. The pellets from the Tractor Supply store is very economical. I change the litter box weekly but I scoop the poop out each time. I have two litter boxes, one in the exercise pen and the other a few feet away in case she can't make it back to her pen when she is out.

I love that even when she poops in her litter box the room isn't smelly. I am very conscientious about pet odors in the house because I know some people can be judgemental when they learn you have numerous pets indoors.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Vartina Ancrum said:


> I love that even when she poops in her litter box the room isn't smelly. I am very conscientious about pet odors in the house because I know some people can be judgemental when they learn you have numerous pets indoors.


The heck with OTHER people... MY nose is very judgmental about animal smells! I love my critters, but I have a VERY sensitive nose! LOL!


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

When out-of-town for the summer for some weird reason Tractor Supply stores did not carry Equine Horse (Pine) Pellets and instead carried Equine Pine Shavings. _This was an area where there are horses everywhere._ The Shavings worked, too, if you can't find the pellets. I prefer the pellets but there's no odor with Shavings either.

Once Patti got use to a potty tray it didn't and doesn't matter what's inside it: Paper, Pellets or Shavings. In the beginning I, also, Sweeten the tray with previous odors but no longer need to do that.

I think sides on the tray is a good idea, although I personally would add a grate on top to keep the pellets or sawdust from being tracked outside of the box due to the set up on my house.


----------



## Vartina Ancrum (Oct 10, 2019)

Coco and Izzie use the same litter box. Has anyone experienced their puppy kicking out their pellets?


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Vartina Ancrum said:


> Coco and Izzie use the same litter box. Has anyone experienced their puppy kicking out their pellets?


I think, most people who use indoor-potty trays have grates on top of the pellets. Tom King has open boxes with pellets with a dozen or dogs and puppies, so he's a good one to ask.:wink2:

I definitely, think if Patti had an open box she would probably playfully kick them out. Especially, if she knew it got my attention. When barking at something serious outside like an -Amarillo - she'll use her back legs and *Scratch like a Bull Getting Ready to Attack*. >

Furthermore ... Patti LOVES! to Dig and Bury things. She would be in HEAVEN 0 with a pile of loose pellets.


----------

