# Color question, tiny hav question



## Roe (Jan 5, 2008)

I am going to get another dog either a maltese or another hav. I am going to look at some tomorrow. Most are black with little white on them and one is all sable more the most part. Is this sable going to change into white eventually? Do any of you have a mostly sable hav now? 
Also this breeder told me the hav was imported from Germany and they are tiny havs that should only weigh about 7 lbs. I always read the havs should be between 10-13 pounds on average. Have any of you ever heard of these tiny havs? I don't think they are actually called tiny havs.

Roe


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Roe, did they intentionally breed 'tiny Havs'? *If yes, I wouldn't even go visit if I were you.* Try to search teacup havanese here on the forum. That's basically a Havanese that's been bred purposely to please people who want to have a Paris Hilton style Havanese to carry around. This is absolutely NOT part of the standard, they're supposed to be sturdy dogs that run, walk, play, etc. Please read the AKC standard and ask that Breeder questions accordingly!!!


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I'd avoid any Havs that are predicted to be "tiny" on a regular basis. My lightweight adult female is nearly 10 pounds. 

With sable coloring, you never know. Sometimes it will fade into a shade that looks like caramel or even cream, but sometimes it holds the reddish brown. It just depends on the dog. Havanese are known for changing colors, so I would recommend that you don't stick too hard and fast to any particular color as a "must have" for you. Sure, all of us are drawn to specific colors and/or markings, but don't let yourself get too stuck on one because it is likely to morph into something else over time.

Most important is to find out if the breeder does health testing on their dogs before breeding, and to see if the temperament of the parents is good and sound.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Tiny havs? I'd run.....:bolt:


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

By the way, no matter where the dog originated, no reputable breeder would breed a "tiny" Havanese.


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

I agree. You can easily search the pups health at the chic site, even with the most minimal information. Ask lots of questions before you go and visit the pups, way too hard to say no when you see the actual sweetie. I know from experience, as I totally did it the wrong way with a "backyard" breeder with my great dane. I fell in love with him and didn't think with my head. Consequently, he health issues from six months to six years with his knee and hip joints. I spent thousands of dollars and watched him suffer in his last years. Never again.
There is nothing more comforting then a breeder who is responsible, truly loves the breed, does health tests, and stands by her dogs.


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## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

i'd run too. my breeder actually told me that there are people out there who are breeding tiny havs for that purpose, my litt guy is 9 lbs. i was lucky to get a small one, makes it easier to travel, she picked him out for us, she must have known he was going to be the small one in the litter, his half brother is 20 lbs. i'd be a little cautions too.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

I would also run away. No reputable breeder would ever ever breed tiny Havs on purpose!


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## Suuske747 (May 9, 2007)

Do you have a name of the Breeder that they imported it from? Wouldn't be surprised if they imported it from Hungary or Czech Republic.....One has got to be so careful....In those countries responsible breeders are having a hard time fighting the mills....
Please PM it to me, and I'll so some research.....

I'll check if it's an FCI-recognised breeder...or in Germany's case VDH (German branch of FCI)...... I doubt it will be....

To me "tiny hav's" sounds already like a huge red flag!


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## mugsy & me (Feb 3, 2008)

Posh's Mom said:


> I agree. You can easily search the pups health at the chic site, even with the most minimal information. Ask lots of questions before you go and visit the pups, way too hard to say no when you see the actual sweetie. I know from experience, as I totally did it the wrong way with a "backyard" breeder with my great dane. I fell in love with him and didn't think with my head. Consequently, he health issues from six months to six years with his knee and hip joints. I spent thousands of dollars and watched him suffer in his last years. Never again.
> There is nothing more comforting then a breeder who is responsible, truly loves the breed, does health tests, and stands by her dogs.


what is the 'chic' site?

joe


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

mugsy said:


> what is the 'chic' site?
> 
> joe


I'm sure she means the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) web site. They give out a CHIC (Canine Health Information Center) number to those dogs that have completed all of the health testing that has been set up for their individual breed.

However, do not confuse a CHIC number with _passing_ results. A CHIC number can also be issued if a dog failed one or all tests. The CHIC number only means that the dog has taken all of the tests and had the results submitted for the database.


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

Havtahava said:


> I'm sure she means the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) web site. They give out a CHIC (Canine Health Information Center) number to those dogs that have completed all of the health testing that has been set up for their individual breed.
> 
> However, do not confuse a CHIC number with _passing_ results. A CHIC number can also be issued if a dog failed one or all tests. The CHIC number only means that the dog has taken all of the tests and had the results submitted for the database.


Yep, that's what I meant. I'm pretty sure you can see detailed information about whether the hips, patelllas, etc...were rate exceptional, good, fair, something like that. Kimberly is a great resource, so I'm sure she can more clearly explain.


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## Roe (Jan 5, 2008)

HI everyone. Thanks for the warnings. I sort of felt that way myself and I postponed the whole thing. We went yesterday "just to look" at Cavalier King Charles puppies. My husband fell in love with the party colored one which is mostly black and white so I bought her. She is almost five months which I liked because I didn't want to housebreak a tiny pup in winter. She is a sweetheart catching on so quickly to going outside. She is an absolute lapdog. She prefers to be on a lap then even to play with Pebbles. 

Roe


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Well Congrats on your little Cavalier Queen, we'd love do see pics!


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I'm glad to read you avoided a tiny hav. Tiny havs seem to have all sorts of health issues and heart break. No one really should be trying to breed down any dogs.....the smaller the dog it seems,the bigger the problems...at least in my opinion.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Oh, congratulations, Roe! Do you have any photos to share?


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## Gracie's Mom (Sep 7, 2007)

Roe,

I am so glad you opted out of the tiny hav. I DO have a tiny hav - She was NOT intentionally breed to be - the breeders are great. She just ended up being tiny. She is 4.5 lbs. at 6 months. The vet said she would be surprised if she ever got past 7 lbs. She has health problems. I also had a Yorkie years ago - 2.8 lbs. fully grown. We bought him at a pet store - we didn't mean to pick such a small guy. I guess we are attracted to them - who knows??? (Our kids are tiny also - my 10 year old is in a size 7 clothes!! So, I guess we must have some sort curse or something.  LOL) Anyway, our Yorkie also had major health problems. I would SOOOOO much rather have a bigger healthier hav than to purposefully get one that is more likely to have problems. I SOMETIMES think size is an indicator of health. Of course - now we have our tiny hav, Gracie, and I wouldn't trade her for anything despite her challenges. 

I am SOO glad to hear you are going with something different. YEAH!!

Karen


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## kawboy (Dec 5, 2007)

Congratulations on your King Charles. They are beautiful dogs. Our little Tasha was only 6.8 lbs. at 6 months and doesn't seem to have grown any more since then. She seems very healthy and is a bundle of energy. I sure hope she doesn't end up with health problems.


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## Gracie's Mom (Sep 7, 2007)

Kawboy - I don't want to imply that every tiny dog has health problems. I didn't mean to needlessly worry you. You will probably be just fine with little Tasha. I was meaning that - I'm beginning to wonder if size has anything to do with health since it seems that I've been having problems with small dogs. How old is she now? 

Karen


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## kawboy (Dec 5, 2007)

Gracie's Mom said:


> Kawboy - I don't want to imply that every tiny dog has health problems. I didn't mean to needlessly worry you. You will probably be just fine with little Tasha. I was meaning that - I'm beginning to wonder if size has anything to do with health since it seems that I've been having problems with small dogs. How old is she now?
> 
> Karen


She is 7 months and not more than 7 lbs. I can't help but be a little concerned because I've heard that dogs a lot smaller than average for the breed tend to have more health issues. You didn't worry me, it's something that's been on my mind since she stopped growing at such a small size.


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## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

Kawboy, your Tasha is beautiful. If you are concerned about her size your vet can run a bile acid blood test. It is done fasting and then food is fed and another blood level is drawn so the results can be compared.


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Tori was at the vet's office today. She is 7 and 1/2 mos. old and weighed 6.5 lbs. and is perfectly healthy, according to him. She will be spayed next month and will have a full blood panel prior to that. He and I both expect everything to be absolutely normal. Tori comes from champion parents both of whom have passed all of their health tests. I'm not so sure size=problems... However, I think it can be an indicator.


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## Gracie's Mom (Sep 7, 2007)

You do have a tiny hav. She is probably fine, but I would error on the side of caution and have it tested if you are concerned. One thing you don't want is to find out you should have tested earlier if problems arise later. A blood test is like $50 and a Bile Acid is about $150. Your vet may just do a blood - ALT Enzyme test first before going further. Did she "stop" growing? What did she weigh at 6 months? She shouldn't stop completely at 7 months. Gracie is only growing about 6 - 8 oz. a month max. She is showing NO signs of problems - just size. Her problem was caught when we had her blood tested before her spay. Maybe your vet checked her blood then. In my not so professional opinion - 7 lbs doesn't sound *completely* out of line for 7 months. Tiny, but within reasonable limitations. Let me know what you decide to do.

Karen


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Karen is right. If you're concerned, have her Bile Acid checked. Also, 7 lbs at 7 mos. is very reasonable.


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

Mirabel was always about the same weight as her age. She did even out at just over 8 lbs. So far I haven't seen any heath issues with her.


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## kawboy (Dec 5, 2007)

We had blood work done before she was spayed but I'm not sure what they tested for. I was starting to wonder if she has some yorkie in her bloodline that kept her smaller. Her body shape and coat look all hav but her face just looks different. I'll take a closeup of her face tomorrow so you can see what I mean.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

kawboy said:


> We had blood work done before she was spayed but I'm not sure what they tested for. I was starting to wonder if she has some yorkie in her bloodline that kept her smaller. Her body shape and coat look all hav but her face just looks different. I'll take a closeup of her face tomorrow so you can see what I mean.


I think the smaller havanese tend to hav a different face anyway. I'd like to see the close up of her face. She looks cute!


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I hope I didn't add to your anciety about the smaller havs. I read the weight range was 7-13 pounds on average,though I know quite a few on here weigh alot more. What I was really meaning was there are breeders out there that are purposely breeding the havs and calling them minatures,tinys,whatever. They are trying to breed down the size of the dog. Since pocket dogs are so popular now,several back yard breeders have jumped on board trying to downsize different breeds and then charge a premium price. The buyers are often left in heartbreak as the pups are not healthy and serious health issues come up. This is what I meant.


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## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

This is a place where you should NOT buy a havanese:
http://www.wheatstate.com/~denson/


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Also, it's important to consider the size of the sire and dam and whether they come from fast or slow growing lines. My MeMe is just topping the scale at 8 lbs at 10 months but she's from slow growing lines and her mom is just 9 lbs. I would agree that at that size that running the bile acids, especially if you think there is a possibility of Yorkie, before the spay is worth the extra money. Yorkies are known for bile acid problems.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Kodi was next to the smallest in his litter and he had his last growth spurt at about 18 mos. He is now about 12.5 lbs at at 2yr 4mos.

We thought Shelby was going to be much bigger. At 11 weeks, she weighed a lb more then Kodi when we got him at the same age. Now at 1yr 5 mos, she is 11 lbs. 4oz.

Kodi is about 11" tall and she is just a little shorter than he is.


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## Gracie's Mom (Sep 7, 2007)

Lisa is right about the Bile Acids running high in Yorkies. Actually, it is the Liver Shunt (LS) causing the high Bile Acid Tests. Yorkies are the #1 dog with LS problems. I believe most, if not all, reputable Yorkie Breeders do the Bile Acid Testing because it is such a huge problem in their breed. If you suspect Yorkie could be in your little pup, then I wouldn't even think about size anymore. I would *run* to get that test. Size is not ALWAYS indicator, but it often can. I don't mean to worry you, I just know it is better to know than harming them not realizing it. There are things they can do for it. This might just be one of those tests that come out perfect, but then you will have peace of mind. I would love to see a close-up of your little guy. We love pictures!!! He sure is cute from your avatar.

Karen


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## kawboy (Dec 5, 2007)

Here is a closeup of Tasha's face. I don't really think there is another breed in there but you never know. I hate to admit this but here goes. We had just had our 13 yr. old keeshond put down for health problems that were getting worse. We decided to get a puppy this time, our keeshond was a 1 1/2 yr. old rescue. There is a woman in the area that breeds cavalier king charles and min pins. We went to her house to check things out and her dogs were in the home and everything looked good. She purchased 2 havs from another breeder and assured us she wouldn't buy from anyone who wasn't a responsible breeder. She kept one and was selling the other. When I picked up Tasha she licked my face and snuggled in tight. She wanted to go home and I was in love. We might have been naive in believing this woman about the breeder she bought her from. Only after coming to this site did I find out how much reputable breeders sell hav puppies for. I have the name and number of the breeder but never called them because I don't expect them to tell me anything I wouldn't want to hear. It makes me sick to think we might have unwittingly supported a puppy mill. I don't know that and never will but the possibility exists. Our vet assures us she is very healthy so we can only hope. I should have done some research before buying but then we might not have Tasha. She is a sweetie and we love her no matter what.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Ya know what? All that counts is you love her! I think she looks like a Hav. I don't think you are alone. She looks so sweet. I hope she is always happy and healthy!


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## Roe (Jan 5, 2008)

Well I am taking my cavalier back to the breeder tomorrow. The vet did agree that it is nystagmus an eye disorder that she will always has and she does have signs of another devastating illness that is very painful. I just can not take this stress and worry day and night just waiting for more symptoms. Is she sick,is she ok etc. I am a wreck and I can not deal with this . I have been through too much. 
I may go and get that maltese. I would rather put up with some barking then a dog that will be in pain till it dies. I can't handle that. God Bless the owners of these precious dogs who do.

Roe


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## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

Roe, I am so sorry. It sounds like you are doing the right thing. You certainly didn't expect to get a sick puppy. I can only imagine how heart breaking this must be for you.


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## kawboy (Dec 5, 2007)

I'm sorry to hear that Roe. Hope you can find another dog that works out for you.


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## kawboy (Dec 5, 2007)

lfung5 said:


> Ya know what? All that counts is you love her! I think she looks like a Hav. I don't think you are alone. She looks so sweet. I hope she is always happy and healthy!


Thank you. She is the sweetest little girl and sure seems happy with us. She loves to walk and so do I so we get quality time together.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Roe, I'm sorry that your puppy had so many problems, though I can definitely understand you returning her to the breeder. It sounded like it was a tough decision for you (as it should be), but I think you made the right one.

Kawboy, FWIW I don't think that Tasha looks like a yorkie at all in the face. She is adorable.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Kawboy,

I agree with Lina, I don't see any yorkie in that sweet adorable face. Give her an extra kiss for Milo and me.

Roe,

What an awful dilemma to face in what should be such a joyous time. I hope things are 100% different next time. Returning this one only means there's another wonderful dog out there with your name on it. God bless your little cavalier.


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Tasha is adorable - sure looks pure Havanese. Hey, next time you know to do some more research but seems like you've made a perfect match with Tasha. I've had Keeshonds too - they are so beautiful and such stinkers!

Roe - I am so sorry about your puppy, but I do think you've made the right decision. Please be sure that your Maltese is from health tested parents and has had it's bile acids done. The breed is running into a lot of problems in that area.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Roe,
Sorry to read about the cavalier's health issues. I know it must be heart breaking to you. The thing that has me upset,is the breeder. If she knew this pup had something wrong with it and sold it to you anyway,that's pretty bad. If she didn't know there was something wrong with it,shame on her as well,because as a breeder,she should darn well know her dogs/puppies.Please be cautious with picking your next pup....:hug: My best to you----:hug:


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## Gracie's Mom (Sep 7, 2007)

Roe ~ I know this was tough for you, but I think you did the right thing. There is a sweet puppy waiting for you somewhere. Make sure your next one is a healthy one - you don't want to repeat the past. Good Luck!

Kawboy - Tasha has the cutest little face! I agree - she doesn't look like a yorkie at all. I would go with what the vet believes. It sounds like she's healthy. I hope you have many years together. 

Karen


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## Roe (Jan 5, 2008)

Hi Everyone and thank you all for your sympathy. IT is heartbreaking because we already made her a member of the family.

I am having second thoughts now of getting another puppy. It is hard work with two. The maltese I am supposed to look at is only four months old and two weeks ago I know the lady told me almost six months. I don't want a little puppy so I am going to be patient and just wait until a one year old havanese comes my way. When one is meant to be it will pop up.

Thanks
Roe


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Roe,
I think being patient is key. I am about to add a third member and patience is so hard when it comes to the little guys. I know what I want, it is just making myself wait. I tend to fall in love with everything. In fact right now, I can't stop thinking about this retired show maltese! Keep us posted and maybe everyone can keep an eye out for your perfect pup!


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Roe, that was a tough decision to make, but one that you made for your sake and the family's sake. This poor puppy might end up being sold to someone else who will have to take on all the worries, pain and financial stress! The "breeder" doesn't sound like a very good one.

Do be careful, Roe. Just because puppies are bred at home, with the family, in good surroundings doesn't at all mean they are healthy. I'm sure they're happy, but healthy? Only testing can show you that and you want to see results of testing done on the parents. If a breeder can't show you those, you have to wonder why and run away. It's not worth falling in love with a puppy face and then finding out it could very well have many health problems.

True that there are no guarantees and no amount of testing on parents can assure the pup will have NO health problems at all, but the odds are on your side at least. 

Good luck!


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Roe,

I am sorry you had such a tough time, but the right dog will be there for you. You are right, patience is the key.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

*TINY HAVS*

Just had to tell you...
When we went to the "Spring fling" today at my vet's office, in walked a couple, probably around 70 or so. They were carrying this adorable little black dog with white paws that I recognized as a Hav. They said yes it was a Hav. "What are your dogs?" When I said Havanese, they looked very surprised. Reason being, their dog was 2 yrs old and very, very tiny. It was 1/2 the size of mine. I thought she was a 5 month old puppy. She was really adorable and very friendly, and had a great coat.

I was a little surprised when they said she was 2 yrs old, but I have seen smaller Havs, like Linda's Bella. What got me was their reaction to me telling them that my dogs were Havs, too. They almost acted like they didn't believe me.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Michele, I have gotten the same kind of reaction from people with smaller Havs here in the city. But most of the other Havs I meet are Kubrick's size or bigger (they look the same size but without all the hair - all Havs I have met in the city have been in puppy cuts, Kubrick is the ONLY Hav at the dog park in full coat) so I just shrug them off.


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## Roe (Jan 5, 2008)

So far I have come across only one hav in my area. He was about the same size as Pebbles but in a puppy cut. People stop me all the time and admire her. No one knows what she is until I tell them.She has a lot of hair and I have kept it long so far and she is only 11 months with all this hair. Pebbles hates being brushed and it is a struggle so she may get a puppy cut soon. 
Pebbles is 10 lbs 7 oz which I think is perfect. 

Roe


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

irnfit said:


> Just had to tell you...
> When we went to the "Spring fling" today at my vet's office, in walked a couple, probably around 70 or so. They were carrying this adorable little black dog with white paws that I recognized as a Hav. They said yes it was a Hav. "What are your dogs?" When I said Havanese, they looked very surprised. Reason being, their dog was 2 yrs old and very, very tiny. It was 1/2 the size of mine. I thought she was a 5 month old puppy. She was really adorable and very friendly, and had a great coat.
> I was a little surprised when they said she was 2 yrs old, but I have seen smaller Havs, like Linda's Bella. What got me was their reaction to me telling them that my dogs were Havs, too. They almost acted like they didn't believe me.


People are clueless. Bella is way too small for a havanese. I guess these people don't go to the shows. Bella looks more like a Maltese! I think Fred and Scudder's size is more the norm. and they are 15lbs.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Just got a pic of the little 2 year old Hav I was talking about. Isn't she cute.
http://share.shutterfly.com/action/...427925a4db&auto=0&idx=190&m=1&d=1206400643107


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Michele, it says that the album isn't shared.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

When I click on the link it comes up? Maybe I can download to my picture file and send it. I guess you'll just have to take my word for it, but she is cute - small but cute.

Let's see if this works.


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## trueblue (Jan 22, 2008)

When I first took Cricket to her "sitter," she was amazed at how big Cricket is. I think she's an average sized pup (4.5 lbs at 9 weeks), but the sitter thought she would be much smaller than that. The super teeny tiny teacup pups just ain't my cup of tea.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Kim, that's insane! 4.5lbs at 9 weeks is completely normal, maybe even a little on the smaller side. Kubrick was 5.75lbs at 13 weeks. It sort of makes me mad how people are so used to "tiny" dogs now that a 4.5lb Hav puppy is considered big! It's just not right.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Lina, I feel the same way. I cringe when I get owners of tiny dogs coming into the store for food. I mean, it's o.k. if they SUPPOSED to be tiny, a la Chihuahua, but 2 lb. Yorkies ?! sigh....... 

Michele, that is a small Hav and I would also assume it was a young pup. Cute though!


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

At 11 weeks, Kodi was 3.5 lbs and Shelby was 4.5 lbs. We thought Shelby was going to be such a big girl, because she grew at such a fast pace. But she slowed down at about 10 months. She is now 11.4 lbs which is a great size. Kodi is about a lb more than her. We thought he was going to be on the smaller side because he was next to the smallest in his litter.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Michele,
That black hav is cute. Could it be in the 7-8 lb. range? That would just be on the low end of the range they give......I think anything smaller though as an adult is scary.....if they're healthy great-but I wouldn't want to chance it myself.


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

The little black Hav is a cutie, but boy she looks like a puppy. I thought Bugsy was small, when I got him at 12 weeks he was 3.8 lbs. But now at 21 months his weight fluctuates between 11.6 and 11.8 lbs. I think he might hit 12 lbs someday soon.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Cheryl said:


> This is a place where you should NOT buy a havanese:
> http://www.wheatstate.com/~denson/


Wow, they have sold a lot of puppies. A website that doesn't list the parents registered names is a huge red flag too. There's someone by me who is selling mini havs and she's trying to get them down to 4 pounds. We tried to talk to her but she's determined


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Roe said:


> Well I am taking my cavalier back to the breeder tomorrow. The vet did agree that it is nystagmus an eye disorder that she will always has and she does have signs of another devastating illness that is very painful. I just can not take this stress and worry day and night just waiting for more symptoms. Is she sick,is she ok etc. I am a wreck and I can not deal with this . I have been through too much.
> I may go and get that maltese. I would rather put up with some barking then a dog that will be in pain till it dies. I can't handle that. God Bless the owners of these precious dogs who do.
> 
> Roe


That's a shame Roe and my heart goes out to you and the puppy. Before I looked at the Havanese I looked at the cavalier but on their parent website it said that about 50% of them have MVD (the heart MVD). That was enough to scare me off.


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## Roe (Jan 5, 2008)

Well I am looking at two havanese tomorrow a black and white one and a brown one. Both are females 8 months old. Perfect age but I will get her spayed as soon as possible. I had asked on another thread what age they go into heat. I want to have her for a little while to get to know and love us before I have her spayed so she knows us enough to trust us while she is in pain. This woman is bringing them from Pa to my house which I thought was nice. IT is only a little over two hour drive.
We still miss the little cavalier puppy in fact I had a weak moment and called to bring her back home but the woman never returned my call. Maybe that was a blessing.

Roe


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Roe - what exciting news for you. How nice that the woman will bring the pups to you. If you can, please check the health testing - you don't want to get into that again. The breeder should have the results posted on their web site or you can check the sire and dam on the OFA web site. Keep us informed and good luck.


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Roe, good luck. Hope you'll eventually find the perfect (healthy) beautiful pup you want! Lisa gave you a good advice there. Please keep us posted...


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## Roe (Jan 5, 2008)

I might be a sucker for punishment. The woman only had her eyes tested. She hasn't even given her more then the first shot which means I will have to give the rest of the shots when I spay her. I will see them tomorrow. Why do these people have puppies so long and not give them their proper shots just to save money. Do any of you know how old the females are when they go into their first heat?

Roe


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## Judy A (Jan 13, 2007)

That worries me a bit...not having the shots. Did you ask her why they hadn't gotten them yet? Do you know if they have been wormed? Would she have let you come to her house? Just wondering because then you could have seen her "operation". I think they can go into heat at 8 months, but I'm not really sure. Surely someone else will be able to tell you that. I don't mean to scare you, Roe......it just seems unusual for a good breeder not to have given all the shots, etc. Did you see the CERF test or the results of it? Don't be afraid to ask LOTS of questions!!


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

Roe,
I so feel for you, but trust us, it IS worth it to take the time to find the right, healthy happy dog. There is nothing more heartbreaking than to fall in love with a puppy just to have it have one health problem after another.

I know that there are differing views on vaccinations, but I just don't know enough about it to comment. There are breeders here on the forum that would be able to answer those questions, they might just miss this thread. I can't remember for sure if there are any specific breeders here on the forum that don't vaccinate. Maybe use the search feature and look for "titer"?

Best of luck! We are all pulling for you!
Please keep us posted
Beverly


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## Judy A (Jan 13, 2007)

Bev, I forgot about some breeders not vaccinating, but I thought that was only after the puppy shots. OK, so I really don't know either, Roe, so I hope a breeder will come through with some answers for you. 
I hope things work out for you.


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## dschles (Jan 23, 2007)

Roe-

Another vote for proceeding with caution. While it is nice that the breeder is bringing the dogs to you, there also are advantages to going to the breeder's house and seeing how many dogs live there, how they behave, and the living quarters of the dog you are considering. If you have any doubts about the dogs once you meet them, you must resist the temptation to take an adorable dog that might not be right for you in the long run. And, if you have doubts before meeting them, don't meet them as they might be tough to resist.

Best of luck as you search for the right dog for you -- it's not easy and there never are any guarantees, but there are ways to maximize the likelihood that the dog you pick will be healthy and have a good temperment.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Roe-
I was thinking the same with Diane, while it may seem nice, i find it very strange the breeder is bringing the pups to you! While there may be a situation that warrants it, I would want to go to the breeder's house and see where the dog are raised.

Amanda


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Some breeders don't give vaccines, true, but they don't give any at all. (Natural Rearing Breeders.) They wouldn't give one set and then stop. Something seems amiss with this situation.

Why did she do CERF (eye) testing and not the others? Do you know - maybe she did do the other tests and is afraid for anyone to see the results? Maybe she didn't have them done at all? I would consider these to be red flags or at least big caution flags, especially when tied to the fact that she is willing to drive 2+ hours to bring the puppies to you. It all seems a little off. (That doesn't mean it is. It just suggests you do more investigating.)


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## Roe (Jan 5, 2008)

Well I know you have all given me great advice. The breeder wanted me to go to her house but didn't mind coming here instead. When they got here we sat down with them, very nice people. They aren't really breeders. This is their dogs litter. They also rescue many many dogs. they just love them. The breeder I got Pebbles from gave me her number. She had eye tests done and yes she is wormed also and the first vaccinations.

I did take the black female. Actually she chose us. I didn't even want a black one but she came in my house and acted like she lived here all her life. SHe wasn't the least bit shy or timid. SHe loved us all instantly and we all fell in love with her. She is so friendly and adorable. She is going for her checkup and vaccinations tomorrow. This couple will take her back if I do not want her or find anything wrong with her or if she just does not get along with Pebbles.

SHe isn't a perfect havanese by any means. I know I couldn't show her but I didn't pay the going rate either. They weren't really in a hurry to get rid of her. They would have kept the whole litter, that is just the way they are.

Maybe she will have problems down the line. I am wililng to deal with them and face them head on. We will love her to death. She seems very sturdy and more solid then Pebbles is. she might be more muscular. Her hair seems to have some reddish highlights in it like most human hair does that is dark.

This is the first litter of these two parents besides so I know I could have some problems ... I pray not.

Thanks for all the help and support. I named her Kayla.

Roe


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Roe,

I wish you the best of luck with your baby Kayla. When you get a chance, don't forget to show us some photos. You know how hungry we are for them. Don't forget sometimes it takes a little while till the dogs get really comfortable with each other, so don't panic if it isn't instant love.


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Roe,

Congratulations on baby Kayla. I hope she is happy, healthy and everything you are hoped she would be.  We want pictures!!!


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Congratulations, Roe! Looking forward to seeing photos of your new puppy, Kayla! Black puppies are tough to photograph - lots of light helps!!


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## havaluv (Oct 15, 2007)

Welcome home, Kayla! Can't wait to see pictures. Aren't we all terrible begging for photos all the time...can't help it, can't get enough!


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## Judy A (Jan 13, 2007)

Congrats, Roe....I hope Kayla works out great and it sounds like your heart is where it needs to be and that's all that matters.......

But, you have to post pictures, it's a rule!!ound:


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Welcome Kayla! Roe, I hope he she will fulfill all your puppy dreams, but it sounds like she's well on her way! Looking forward to seeing hoto:


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