# PUPPY BACK?



## GrannyMouse

I'm looking for my first Havanese puppy. The standard price seems to run $2ooo. Is it normal for pay that and give a puppy back too? I'm having a very hard time finding a puppy. The reputable breeders are making it very difficult to purchase a puppy. I understand their reasoning but what they are doing is pushing people to buy from not so reputable breeders.


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## puppyinmyyard

Well, I think if you look around and talk to many different breeders you may be able to find a puppy for less than that. In my geographical area they seem to range from $900 (rare, but they are there and I have a good opinion of the breeders I've spoke to) to $1200 (more common) and all the way up to $1800. We are in the Northwest if that makes any difference. It seems like the breeders in the East are charging more. But again, this is only my experience and I'm a new to this.


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## juliav

GrannyMouse said:


> I'm looking for my first Havanese puppy. The standard price seems to run $2ooo. Is it normal for pay that and give a puppy back too?


I am not sure I understand the "puppy back". Are you trying to purchase a puppy with full AKC registration and rights to breed??? Most, no strike that, none of the reputable breeders will sell a puppy with full registration and breeding rights unless you plan to show your puppy to his/hers championship, do all the health testing and only then breed. They will also keep their name on registration papers until you receive the championship title. I am not sure how many of them will require a puppy back, it depends on the contract. Some reputable breeders charge the same for their show and pet puppies because they have above mentioned conditions on full registration. Some will charge more for show dogs, I think it depends on the breeder.


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## pjewel

I'm a bit confused by your post as well. What does puppy back mean? I have to agree with Julia about reputable breeders not selling puppies with full registration unless you show them to their championship. If it's a pet you're looking for, unless your living situation would suggest otherwise, you should be able to find a breeder who will sell you a puppy. Average pricing from breeders who do all the testing and stand behind their puppies is anywhere from $1500 - 2000. Of course there are some that are a little more, some a little less. If the price is a lot lower, I'd look into it further.


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## GrannyMouse

I am looking for a puppy to show. I think it would have been easier to adopt a child from China! I've had rude responses from breeders, unreasonable responses from breeders and completely ridiculous responses.

Maybe I'm being overly sensitive but this is one of the ones I though rude:

_I'd prefer a telephone conversation. I am very busy and can get more info by speaking with you directly. Try me at 555-555-5555 after 4pm._

I'm busy too!! Wouldn't a, "No, I don't have puppies." or "Yes, I do have puppies. Let's talk." be better?

This ones comes under ridiculous. I pointed out there were no champions in her pedigree:

_I know when I first started in the Havanese breed, I wanted all show dogs with champion backgrounds. I have found some of my best dogs from people who do not show, I know now to look more at the dogs and their parents than what papers their grandparents may have had. * Almost any dog can be shown to championship at 6-8 months*, that cute puppy stage....but what does that dog look like at 1 year or 2 years, or 5 years from now? Not saying that I won't ever show again, I would take my dogs and put them up against anyone elses anytime. But this is just how I feel._

Unreasonable:

_"If you don't finish her by 18 months you will have to give her to my handler to finish."_

So wonder what happens if I lost my job?

I like this one too. I asked about show puppies and received the following answer: _"I do. Where are you from?" _ When I responded that I lived in Virginia, I never heard back. Guess she didn't like people from Virginia.

I guess what I'm trying to say is breeders need to remember they started somewhere with their first dog. They weren't born showing and breeding Havanese. I'm also looking for my first dog and it is not easy. I can see where some people would just give up the hunt and buy from a backyard breeder or pet store.


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## hartman studio

Hmmmm.. where to start with a reply. First let me say that Havanese breeders are very particular where they place their puppies. Most of these breeders breed because they LOVE the Havanese breed-not for profit. They also get very attached to their puppies and want to make sure they are placed in the best household possible. If you are only using email to inquire about puppies it is very impersonal. Most breeders want to talk with you to get a "feel" for what you are like and what are your expectations. Add to that you are asking for a "show" puppy with full breeding rights. They will want to know more about your intentions and experience. They are trying very hard to keep the Havanese breed healthy and with good temperments and not let this breed go the way of so many others that have become popular and overbred. Your remark that you would now buy from a mill or BYB because of your interactions with reputable breeders would not go over well. Are you now saying you would try to show one of those? Or are you just looking to breed? Either way this would be a red flag for breeders. I suggest if you are serious about showing you may want to find a reputable breeder that lives near you so they could mentor you.


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## JASHavanese

GrannyMouse said:


> I'm looking for my first Havanese puppy. The standard price seems to run $2ooo. Is it normal for pay that and give a puppy back too? I'm having a very hard time finding a puppy. The reputable breeders are making it very difficult to purchase a puppy. I understand their reasoning but what they are doing is pushing people to buy from not so reputable breeders.


A typical price is normally 1800-2000, some selling for more. I would run like the wind if the price was lower than 1500 and to find good lines that are health tested at 1500 is rare. They may have had too many litters or they might have other things going on in their life and need to find homes quickly. Remember a breeder is a person with a life and not all breeders treat this as a business. Some do, many don't.
I'm a breeder and I will not buy with a contract of a puppy back as a general rule. First, how do I know that that puppy will turn out well enough for me to feel it should be bred? Don't let anyone put your into a position of compromising yourself or your values or the health of future dogs. If you do buy with a puppy back contract, make sure there is a clause in there that will let you back out of it should you feel the dog should not be bred.
With a puppy back clause the breeder basically winds up getting the initial price of the puppy, let's say 2000. Then they wind up getting another puppy for free that you could have sold for 2000, so the actual selling price of that puppy is 4000 plus your costs. 
There are some who put into their contracts that they may use your dog three times for litters. 
There has been one dog out of the litters I had that had it gone with full registration I would have wanted a puppy back. I had a choice of selling the puppy to a breeder or a loving home where I knew the match would be fantastic so I sold the puppy for less money to the non breeder and that puppy was everything I was looking for in conformation, personality, and health. Had they chosen full registration and shown her I would have been there every step of the way and made sure she was shown and bred to a great stud and I probably would have wound up still paying probably half price for the puppy even with a puppy back contract unless I was the one providing or paying for the stud service but I don't look at this as a business and there are some breeders who would probably think I was nuts for being so easy going.
I have a friend who is stuck in a contract with more than one breeding back and it's backfired big time on her. Others are in a puppy back situation and the dogs have heart problems with the breeder wanting their puppy back. You need a spay or neuter clause to keep you from this. There is no reason on this earth for bringing an unhealthy litter into this world. Everything in a puppy back contract needs to be clearly stated in a contract..every detail, even the smallest one, for the protection of future dogs put on the ground.
In the puppy back contract how many live and healthy puppies do you need to have to constitute not giving a puppy back? If there are only one or two do you give a puppy back? If so, you are looking at a lot of money that you will not be getting back and expect to go into the hole with the litter as far as money goes.
Does the person with the puppy back contract show the dog for you? Do they mentor you? Do they believe in spay neuter should you feel the dog shouldn't be bred?
There are 3 breeders I would buy with a puppy back contract because I know them very well and know their lines very well...and the kicker of it is, they probably wouldn't hold me to a puppy back or they'd give me half price for the puppy and let me decide if the dog should be bred.


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## GrannyMouse

hartman studio said:


> Hmmmm.. where to start with a reply. First let me say that Havanese breeders are very particular where they place their puppies. Most of these breeders breed because they LOVE the Havanese breed-not for profit. They also get very attached to their puppies and want to make sure they are placed in the best household possible. If you are only using email to inquire about puppies it is very impersonal. Most breeders want to talk with you to get a "feel" for what you are like and what are your expectations. Add to that you are asking for a "show" puppy with full breeding rights. They will want to know more about your intentions and experience. They are trying very hard to keep the Havanese breed healthy and with good temperments and not let this breed go the way of so many others that have become popular and overbred. Your remark that you would now buy from a mill or BYB because of your interactions with reputable breeders would not go over well. Are you now saying you would try to show one of those? Or are you just looking to breed? Either way this would be a red flag for breeders. I suggest if you are serious about showing you may want to find a reputable breeder that lives near you so they could mentor you.


You misread what I said. I said I could see why SOME people would be pushed to nonreputable breeders. I did not say I would buy from a mill or BYB. The reason I used email instead of calls is that most of the websites said *email any questions or inquiries.* No, I am not looking just to breed. I am looking for a puppy to show, to train in obedience and to become a member of my family. It seems that many, many of the Havanese breeders are very quick to judge!!


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## pjewel

I would think it would serve you well to get into a conversation with a breeder over the phone if they suggest that. The communication level is different and you can both see how you feel about each other. Is this someone you're comfortable with? Are you comfortable with the terms of the contract? The breeders, as mentioned before, are very cautious about the home their puppies go to, wanting the best future for them that they can provide. They take bringing them into the world very seriously. 

With email being a flat medium, it's easy to misinterpret the written word, for any of us.


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## cjsud

I also have to add. I never realized how MANY emails and calls breeders get. When we start to look for a puppy we think we are the only ones and we should have a choice and it should be easy. Never thinking that reputable breeders sell a lot by word of mouth and many times have a long waiting list. It can be frustrating but please remember you are not the only one contacting each breeder and they have many many people to write back or speak to on the phone each day. Not everyone is honest with them and some are rude to them and it makes them defensive and annoyed that someone who wants a lifetime commitment to one of their dogs isn't gonna do the work in understanding the breed or spending the energy to keep calling them until they have time to talk. Breeders don't sit home all day waiting for us to call or write. They have families to care for and vets to go to. This really isn't a business that has hours.
I am not a breeder and I did have to contact 5 or 6 breeders some who called back on Sundays or had me call them late at night. I looked for months until someone said my Hobbes was available he was 7 months old. Be patient keep trying do your homework and the right pup will come along.
Geez see what happens when I don't post for weeks.


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## JASHavanese

GrannyMouse said:


> This ones comes under ridiculous. I pointed out there were no champions in her pedigree:
> 
> _I know when I first started in the Havanese breed, I wanted all show dogs with champion backgrounds. I have found some of my best dogs from people who do not show, I know now to look more at the dogs and their parents than what papers their grandparents may have had. * Almost any dog can be shown to championship at 6-8 months*, that cute puppy stage....but what does that dog look like at 1 year or 2 years, or 5 years from now? Not saying that I won't ever show again, I would take my dogs and put them up against anyone elses anytime. But this is just how I feel._
> 
> "I do. Where are you from?" [/I] When I responded that I lived in Virginia, I never heard back. Guess she didn't like people from Virginia.
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to say is breeders need to remember they started somewhere with their first dog. They weren't born showing and breeding Havanese. I'm also looking for my first dog and it is not easy. I can see where some people would just give up the hunt and buy from a backyard breeder or pet store.


I have to agree that way too many dogs are getting their championships that shouldn't have them. They're shown young and don't hold up, but they have that CH in front of their name. Given a choice between a half yassed CH and a dog without a CH with awesome conformation and health, I'd buy from the non CH. There are way too many judges who don't have a clue about our breed yet. Also we have coated dogs and that coat can make or break a dog in the ring. Did you know there are a lot of dogs that live their life in kennels to be shown? They don't want the other dogs to pull on that fur or the dog getting into a situation where it might lose some hair or break some off. *Good and reputable breeders* know what should and shouldn't be bred but being new to our breed, how do you know who they are? Then you have the breeders who at all costs will go for that CH, some spending many thousands of dollars on a dog that should never be bred.
I've seen dogs with their CH that waddled like a Peke, ones that were mature males and had their testicles banded, ones with big huge bug eyes and a host of other things that have their CH including bowed legs and throw heart problems, not to mention really bad liver panels. Don't let that title fool you into believing the dog is great. 
Did you watch Eukanuba the year any CH could enter? The announcers pretty much summed up the dog show world. When it came to the class of any dog, they said the judges were flying blind and didn't know anything about the history of wins on those dogs. Stop and think about that....it says a mouth full and it's not pretty.
I have a beautiful Cuban girl with lines that go right back to Zoila (pretty much the queen of Cuban dogs) with everything I'm looking for as far as conformation goes. She got strange bumps on her back and I'm a health freak. She was in full coat and ready to be shown but with those bumps I wanted to rule out SA. In order for the vet to take the skin punches for SA, they need to shave the back of the neck/upper back area. So a choice was made....show or always wonder. I chose health first and had the SA punches done. I flipped out over _ant bites_...but thankfully that's all it was. Will I breed her? Without a doubt
You're new so you don't understand the Va conundrum and it's not worth the time or energy to go into. There's a lot of background issues there and you can go back through old posts to read about some of it. Unfortunately because of a few, saying you're from Va is like waving a red flag in front of their face. You kind of got sucker punched there and people need to get to know you and judge you for you....which they should do anyhow.
Know what you want as far as conformation goes and go after it. You will find what you're looking for. It may take some patience but if we don't have that, we'd be making huge mistakes and ones that could be quite painful both to the dog and us.


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## GrannyMouse

Thanks, Jan . . .

I will keep looking and I will find the right puppy for me. I'm talking to a breeder in FL now and hopefully something good will come from that.

I also have friends who are AKC judges and handlers that are checking when they are at shows.


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## Thumper

I am in Virginia and that is the going rate, most of the breeders in this state are a tight knit group, that's all I'm going to say on that.

I ended up flying across the country for my girl, nothing to do with Virginia prejudice in any way, it just so happened that ended up going with an out of state one.

You've gotten a lot of good explanations on the Full registration, the really good breeders will want to get to know you better and I've found that talking on the phone is easier when you are dealing with something more complex in nature, and you can also get a better sense of the breeder, so look at it as beneficial to both of you.

I did talk to several breeders when I was looking and a few of them were a bit odd, but first sign of a red flag, run...

Kara


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## GrannyMouse

Kara - I'm also in Virginia Beach. Looks like I will definitely be going out of state.

PS Did you notice the Havanese ad in today's classified?


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## Becky Chittenden

I have never sold a puppy with a puppy back contract. I've bought two and given one. All the contracts said that the puppy would turn out as a GOOD show prospect. One we did breed and one didn't turn out, so she was spayed and found a new home as an extremely loved companion for a widow. The one I was given, a Collie, I'd tried to buy about 6 months prior. The owner was a friend and our deal was if she finished (she did in less than 6 months of showing sparingly) at two years of age. We bred her last season but she developed pyo. We treated it and will try to repeat the breeding this fall. If she misses or develops pyo again, we won't try again. We are going to spay her no matter what and she'll live here her whole life.
I have some Havanese babies now, more than I should keep (3) and I have turned down several people, politely, because they were not right for the puppies. I think a good breeder breeds first to improve the breed, if possible, and secondly to have something for themself to show next.
As for Havanese finishing as puppies, it still happens, but in this area, you are seeing more and more adult dogs being shown. I finished my last one when she was about 2 1/2. I'm showing a two year old who still needs body and some more coat (mine are slow maturers. I've seen, in the past, when most of the entries were puppies some that didn't pan out, as others previously mentioned, and others that looked even better.
I think $2000 plus a puppy is a bit much unless it is your dream dog.
Be patient and you'll find the right puppy.


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## GrannyMouse

Becky Chittenden said:


> I have never sold a puppy with a puppy back contract. I've bought two and given one. All the contracts said that the puppy would turn out as a GOOD show prospect. One we did breed and one didn't turn out, so she was spayed and found a new home as an extremely loved companion for a widow. The one I was given, a Collie, I'd tried to buy about 6 months prior. The owner was a friend and our deal was if she finished (she did in less than 6 months of showing sparingly) at two years of age. We bred her last season but she developed pyo. We treated it and will try to repeat the breeding this fall. If she misses or develops pyo again, we won't try again. We are going to spay her no matter what and she'll live here her whole life.
> I have some Havanese babies now, more than I should keep (3) and I have turned down several people, politely, because they were not right for the puppies. I think a good breeder breeds first to improve the breed, if possible, and secondly to have something for themself to show next.
> As for Havanese finishing as puppies, it still happens, but in this area, you are seeing more and more adult dogs being shown. I finished my last one when she was about 2 1/2. I'm showing a two year old who still needs body and some more coat (mine are slow maturers. I've seen, in the past, when most of the entries were puppies some that didn't pan out, as others previously mentioned, and others that looked even better.
> I think $2000 plus a puppy is a bit much unless it is your dream dog.
> Be patient and you'll find the right puppy.


I think what the breeder was implying was that *ANY* dog could finish as a puppy. It didn't necessarily need good breeding behind it to finish if you did it quickly.


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## Thumper

GrannyMouse said:


> Kara - I'm also in Virginia Beach. Looks like I will definitely be going out of state.
> 
> PS Did you notice the Havanese ad in today's classified?


You'll have to send me a private message with your email addy, my husband and I have playdates at our house a few times year, you are more than welcome to come..there are havs from breeders all over the country at our playdates, and they are always fun, my dh is a great cook with a great wine cabinet 

No, I quit getting the pilot a few years ago, that is really surprising to me..back when I was looking 3-4 years ago, nobody had even heard of a havanese and there weren't any classifieds for them..the popularity boom is a little unsettling to me. I wonder if I know the person that ran the ad? (local breeders?)? I'll have to go check it out

I do think this is a great area to show havs, there aren't many show-havs around here, I'd love to invite you to a play-date (more like lunch, food, wine and adults having fun while the dogs chase each other around ..

There are several good breeders in the US, although, the looks of havs can vary a bit, I"m sure you've seen that already! it is one of the first things I realized when I was researching the breed..

It is fairly easy to fly to pick one up and some breeders will even bring them here for you (your tab, of course )

Kara


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## Becky Chittenden

I bought my first 3 Havs in Va. It was a 6 1/2 hour drive from my home in TN. I had looked for several years, on the web and especially at shows to figure out the look I wanted (as you said, there are different looks). Then I waited a year and a half for the first one. I wanted a show female. #3 was not planned. He was returned to the breeder as they thought he wasn't going to turn out. He hadn't been very trained, which I didn't realize until I brougnt him home, just propelled on the lead, wouldn't stand on the table, but the first two weekends I took him to shows, despite the lack of training, he won 2 majors. He did get trained before he finished. He is now the one who sits next to me every night while I read.
In addition, don't think all "good" breeders have websites. We know there are a plethora of websites that the people aren't reputable. I know a number of good breeders (I'd like to include myself in this group) who don't have web sites for a number of reasons. Mine is I have no idea how to set one up. Although over the years I've gained alot in tech knowledge, even the web site for dummys baffled me. When I retire, I'll find a web designer and set one up. I think it is going to take me longer as I am so ignorant.
There are just a few people on this side of Tennessee who breed Havs, I wish I were, sometimes, I were closer to the middle so I could go to play dates. I love the part of the state where we live (we chose it out of the entire country). I don't plan to move until I move on to heaven.


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## GrannyMouse

Thanks for all of your encouragement. I have done a lot of reading and research and feel I am a good candidate for a Havanese owner. I am not new to dog showing - just Havanese. Although it has been many years ago, we have finished dogs. I am a past member of our local kennel club as well as a past officer. I have served as Show Chairman, Corresponding Secretary, Judges Selection Committee and Recording Secretary. My husband was Vice President. I was active in obedience earning a two CD's and a CDX. I have been a member of two national breed clubs. I have very close friends that are well known AKC Judges. One judges Havanese and I am sure you would all know his name. I have a friend that has offered to help with showing. Her sister has a BIS at Westminster. I worked for a vet for almost 4 years when we lived in NC. My husband works from home so the puppy would not be alone. Our children are grown and gone. I think I have better than average credentials but as soon as I say I want a "female" to show it puts up red flags. If any of you have recommendations as to where I can look that would be great. Thanks!


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## Luciledodd

Becky I am glad you picked TN to live in until you pass on. We have to meet sometime. My grandson is playing football his senior year there in Powell. I plan to come to at least one of the games. Hope we can meet up. 
Lucile


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## MopTop Havanese

GrannyMouse said:


> Thanks for all of your encouragement. I have done a lot of reading and research and feel I am a good candidate for a Havanese owner. I am not new to dog showing - just Havanese. Although it has been many years ago, we have finished dogs. I am a past member of our local kennel club as well as a past officer. I have served as Show Chairman, Corresponding Secretary, Judges Selection Committee and Recording Secretary. My husband was Vice President. I was active in obedience earning a two CD's and a CDX. I have been a member of two national breed clubs. I have very close friends that are well known AKC Judges. One judges Havanese and I am sure you would all know his name. I have a friend that has offered to help with showing. Her sister has a BIS at Westminster. I worked for a vet for almost 4 years when we lived in NC. My husband works from home so the puppy would not be alone. Our children are grown and gone. I think I have better than average credentials but as soon as I say I want a "female" to show it puts up red flags. If any of you have recommendations as to where I can look that would be great. Thanks!


You have told all of this information to reputable show breeders and they are still giving you a hard time?


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## Thumper

Becky, if you ever find your way up to Virginia beach on vacation  Let me know and we'll have a playdate waiting for you :biggrin1: Tennessee is a beautiful state~~

Granny Mouse, you do have an impressive resume... I'm sure I'd be in the same boat as I'd want a female, too... I would look at it as fate is pushing you in another direction and you will find the right breeder...just keep looking and meeting them, or you always can ask your judge friend for a recommendation.. 

Kara


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## GrannyMouse

MopTop Havanese said:


> You have told all of this information to reputable show breeders and they are still giving you a hard time?


I am talking to several breeders now. That is why I asked the puppy back question. I've filled out countless puppy questionnaires with some of the above information with no repsponse - breeders with puppies on their website.

One of my friends judged in Florida this past weekend and she was going to check around. She was also riding with one of the Havanese judges and was going to talk with her.


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## Becky Chittenden

Grannymouse, I think I had to wait a year and a half for SOX because, like you, I wanted a show female. I just wish you wanted a male and I'd let you have one of my babies, but the girl is gone and I think she was going to be too small for show. Your "credentials" sound very similar to mine.
Thumper, If I come that way, I'll let you know. I usually don't spread my showing that far from home, but you never know.
Lucile, It would be great to meet you. I think Powell is doing well in football. 
The school where I work was ranked first in the State until they lost big time last Friday.
If you happen to go to the Murfreesboro shows this weekend, I'll be there.


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