# Distemper Parv vaccine and bordetella



## CaroleG (Aug 13, 2016)

Cubby is a male Hav that is 2 1/2 years old. He had the Distemper/Parvo vaccine and the Bordetella vaccine yesterday morning. Last night he did not eat his dinner. This morning he is lethargic. Just lying around, will walk a bit, and just sitting around. No energy. Should I be worried?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Havanese are a vaccine sensitive breed. Many of of choose to titer rarther than continue to give unnecessary repeat “boosters for parvo and distemper. My 10year old hasn’t had a parvo or distemper vaccine in many years, and still has a high titer. My girls only ever had two puppy vaccinations for both and have had high titers ever since.

And I do not vaccinate for Bordatella at all. It is the dog equivalent of a cold, and the vaccine, at best protects the dog from a few of many possible strains, and only for about 6 months. Giving it to them annually is pretty useless. The main reason to give it is to keep daycare or grooming places happy, and I refuse to risk my dog’s immune system for that.

In the future, if you DO continue with annual vaccinations, please make sure that he doesn’t get more than one at a time, and no closer than a MINIMUM of 2-4 weeks apart. For now, he may feel punky for a day or two, but he will recover.


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## CaroleG (Aug 13, 2016)

Followup on Cubby. Last night had severe diarrhea that eventually had blood. Went to Doctor and she said it "probably" is a reaction to Distemper. I think....that the only required vaccine is rabies. Am I wrong. Anyways, she said it always could be "another" thing, but at this point thinks it is a reaction to the vaccine. (He also had Bordetella) I feel so terrible! I took a totally healthy dog in and then he is now so sick. Gave him fluids (not IV) into his neck to address any dehydration. Gave him an anti-nausea medication. To feed him chicken and pasta (I thought rice but she said pasta), and he is on Metronidazole suspension for diarrhea. Very worried and hope the vet knows what she is doing.


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

I would be sure to discuss a plan of action with your vet before any further vaccines are ever given to your dog. I hope he feels better soon.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

CaroleG said:


> Followup on Cubby. Last night had severe diarrhea that eventually had blood. Went to Doctor and she said it "probably" is a reaction to Distemper. I think....that the only required vaccine is rabies. Am I wrong. Anyways, she said it always could be "another" thing, but at this point thinks it is a reaction to the vaccine. (He also had Bordetella) I feel so terrible! I took a totally healthy dog in and then he is now so sick. Gave him fluids (not IV) into his neck to address any dehydration. Gave him an anti-nausea medication. To feed him chicken and pasta (I thought rice but she said pasta), and he is on Metronidazole suspension for diarrhea. Very worried and hope the vet knows what she is doing.


I am very sorry to hear about your dog. Please do not beat yourself up about this. Not everyone is lucky enough to have been told about the dangers of vaccinations, especially over vaccination. My Mia had very bad reactions to vaccines at age two. It was shortly after that I learned about the dangers of over vaccination. I felt so guilty but I simply did not know better and trusted my vet. Mia is 11 now and very healthy. She has not had any vaccines since, legally required or otherwise. She is super healthy. I have also naturally reared her since then. Note that the rabies vaccine is one of the worst and there is no medical basis for repeatedly vaccinating a dog for rabies for its entire life. I would check if there is a rabies waiver in your state. Definitely do not do the 1 year if they accept 3 year. Sometimes laws are unjust and need to be broken. You can also titer for rabies although not accepted legally but at least you would know.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

While I am all for a minimal vaccine protocol, remember that breaking the law and skipping Rabies vaccine, EVEN if your dog is protected from Rabies (which is probably true) is putting your dog's life at risk. If someone even SAYS your dog has bitten little Johnny, whether he has or not, and you can't produce a rabies certificate, you could have your dog destroyed and its brain examined for Rabies? Do you really want to take a chance on that? Think about that long and hard before making the decision to break that particular law.

I have one dog on a Rabies waiver, which is legal in my state for medical reasons ONLY, as requested ANNUALLY by the dog's vet. He has a waiver because of a severe, LIFE THREATENING reaction SPECIFICALLY to his last RABIES vaccine, 6 years ago now. He ended up hospitalized. His vet refuses to give it to him again. My girls get their Rabies vaccines every 3 years as required by law. I titer for everything else. Kodi gets titered for Rabies every 3 years, as required by my town for his license. In my state, every town handles that their own way. (Which is crazy, but...) Rabies titers are expensive, $150 here.


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## CaroleG (Aug 13, 2016)

Thank You! I am beating myself up and you are right. So good to hear yours got through this. It helps to know he can get over this!


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## CaroleG (Aug 13, 2016)

I am learning a lot from all of you. Thank you!


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## CaroleG (Aug 13, 2016)

It was the distemper shot that made him sick.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> While I am all for a minimal vaccine protocol, remember that breaking the law and skipping Rabies vaccine, EVEN if your dog is protected from Rabies (which is probably true) is putting your dog's life at risk. If someone even SAYS your dog has bitten little Johnny, whether he has or not, and you can't produce a rabies certificate, you could have your dog destroyed and its brain examined for Rabies? Do you really want to take a chance on that? Think about that long and hard before making the decision to break that particular law.
> 
> I have one dog on a Rabies waiver, which is legal in my state for medical reasons ONLY, as requested ANNUALLY by the dog's vet. He has a waiver because of a severe, LIFE THREATENING reaction SPECIFICALLY to his last RABIES vaccine, 6 years ago now. He ended up hospitalized. His vet refuses to give it to him again. My girls get their Rabies vaccines every 3 years as required by law. I titer for everything else. Kodi gets titered for Rabies every 3 years, as required by my town for his license. In my state, every town handles that their own way. (Which is crazy, but...) Rabies titers are expensive, $150 here.


So if you lived in an area where there are no medical exemptions for rabies, would you continue to vaccinate Kodi for rabies just to be legal even though it may kill him or make him extremely ill? Some people are in this situation. As far as little Johnny, I do not allow my dogs near strangers, particularly kids. As far as legality, some counties in my state have no rabies laws. Regardless, I still take precautions to avoid my dogs from getting rabies and avoid situations where they could be accused of biting someone. As far as actually biting someone, I think a dog is going to be in trouble even if they have a waiver or are up to date on rabies. A friend of mine had a dog that severely bit his groomer. The dog was up to date on rabies. Animal control took the dog and it was put down. When my friend said he was up to date, animal control said that they cannot depend on the rabies vaccine working.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> So if you lived in an area where there are no medical exemptions for rabies, would you continue to vaccinate Kodi for rabies just to be legal even though it may kill him or make him extremely ill? Some people are in this situation. As far as little Johnny, I do not allow my dogs near strangers, particularly kids. As far as legality, some counties in my state have no rabies laws. Regardless, I still take precautions to avoid my dogs from getting rabies and avoid situations where they could be accused of biting someone. As far as actually biting someone, I think a dog is going to be in trouble even if they have a waiver or are up to date on rabies. A friend of mine had a dog that severely bit his groomer. The dog was up to date on rabies. Animal control took the dog and it was put down. When my friend said he was up to date, animal control said that they cannot depend on the rabies vaccine working.


It is a decision every person has to make based on their own situation. The decision is going to be different, based on whether the dog has had a significant reaction SPECIFICALLY to Rabies vaccine or whether the person just worries about vaccines in general. It also is going to be different if the family has several small children, and there for FRIENDS of those small children in and out of the house regularly.

You can do whatever you want to do. So can the OP. But I think it is very important for her (and other people) to have a clear understanding of exactly what the risks are when they don't vaccinate their dog for Rabies. We are not talking about a slap on the wrist or a fine. We are talking about risking the dog's life in a different way. Each owner has to weigh those risks and make a decision how best to manage their dog.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> It is a decision every person has to make based on their own situation. The decision is going to be different, based on whether the dog has had a significant reaction SPECIFICALLY to Rabies vaccine or whether the person just worries about vaccines in general. It also is going to be different if the family has several small children, and there for FRIENDS of those small children in and out of the house regularly.
> 
> You can do whatever you want to do. So can the OP. But I think it is very important for her (and other people) to have a clear understanding of exactly what the risks are when they don't vaccinate their dog for Rabies. We are not talking about a slap on the wrist or a fine. We are talking about risking the dog's life in a different way. Each owner has to weigh those risks and make a decision how best to manage their dog.


Yes I agree. This is not a decision to be made lightly. There are many things to consider and everybody is in a different situation. For example, if you don't keep up to date on rabies, you will likely have to groom your own dog and boarding may be difficult. I was just trying to make the point that blindly following the law is not always the best option either and may not help you anyway if your dog actually bites someone. In my case, the sacrifices and things I have to do to avoid rabies exposure and situations where my dog can bite someone are well worth the health of my dog. I do not like playing Russian roulette with my dog's immune system, particularly since she had terrible reactions to previous vaccines.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

3 year rabies vacs are available in all states. 

RCF " we believe it is premature for state rabies laws/regulations to allow for titers in lieu of vaccination." 

RCF "contends that all states should have medical exemption clauses in their rabies laws/regulations allowing veterinarians to write waivers of rabies vaccinations for animals they have determined within the framework of a current client-patient relationship to be too ill or had a documented prior serious adverse reaction to the rabies vaccine." 

Here we can titer for rabies but it's $300 . I don't recommend breaking the law.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Last time I titered my dogs for rabies was when they were 8 years old and both had high titers from their first rabies shot. It cost me $250 per dog...ridiculous. Here is an article that contains a link where you can get an affordable titer that includes rabies.

https://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2019/09/01/vaccine-induced-itp.aspx


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

Excellent link! Thanks for posting!
My vet gave me all kinds of crap about titers when I asked. The vets around here do not want to follow the protocol mentioned. I've called quite a few. I got a pile of crap from the vet and the vet tech when I said I did not want lepto.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tere said:


> Excellent link! Thanks for posting!
> My vet gave me all kinds of crap about titers when I asked. The vets around here do not want to follow the protocol mentioned. I've called quite a few. I got a pile of crap from the vet and the vet tech when I said I did not want lepto.


I'd keep looking for a more up to date vet, and in the meantime, I'd develop a thick skin and continue to stand up for your dog.  ESPECIALLY from the vet tech. They have NO reason to be handing out medical advice, and you have every right to tell them so.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> I'd keep looking for a more up to date vet, and in the meantime, I'd develop a thick skin and continue to stand up for your dog.  ESPECIALLY from the vet tech. They have NO reason to be handing out medical advice, and you have every right to tell them so.


This is great advice from Karen. I always try to remember...the vet is working for ME...not the other way around! Be ready to switch vets if necessary too. I have switched twice and considering a third switch. I have also found some holistic or integrative vets to be bad as conventional! A good well educated and open minded conventional vet may be better.

Here is a great article from one of my favorite vets on taking charge of your pet's health. There are many other wonderful articles on vitalanimal.com.

https://vitalanimal.com/pet-health-care/#more-88170


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Tere said:


> Excellent link! Thanks for posting!
> My vet gave me all kinds of crap about titers when I asked. The vets around here do not want to follow the protocol mentioned. I've called quite a few. I got a pile of crap from the vet and the vet tech when I said I did not want lepto.


Finding a good vet is not easy in my experience. I wish you the best of luck. I have heard of people using online vets for some problems. For example, they have a vet draw blood and send it to them. This might work for specific heath issues but not for everything.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

I've gone to this vet for 15 plus years. He has changed recently. It feels like they are upselling now and using scare tactics. They are pushing all vaccinations. saying that a healthy dog can handle them. They insist that Trifexis and Nexgard are totally safe. Haven't heard of any problems!
Although I know tons of people with dogs, I don't know of one person who shares my concerns about vaccinations/combo heartworm drugs. Finding a good vet is tough, that is for sure. I'd love to find a local group of toy dog lovers!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Tere said:


> I've gone to this vet for 15 plus years. He has changed recently. It feels like they are upselling now and using scare tactics. They are pushing all vaccinations. saying that a healthy dog can handle them. They insist that Trifexis and Nexgard are totally safe. Haven't heard of any problems!
> Although I know tons of people with dogs, I don't know of one person who shares my concerns about vaccinations/combo heartworm drugs. Finding a good vet is tough, that is for sure. I'd love to find a local group of toy dog lovers!


The same thing happened to my holistic vet. Nothing holistic at all about them. Check out the Facebook page called Does Nextgard Kill Dogs if you want to see some sad cases. I think chemicals are so freely used these days that everyone has become desensitized. The bugs are getting more resistant and the drugs keep getting stronger. If you want to collaborate with people who share your concerns, you may have to join a Facebook or MEWE group on natural rearing.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

Interesting. My vet does puppy vaccines and 1 year, then every 3 years. He also doesn’t do the lepto vaccine. We agree on most things though he would neuter before I will. 

I wouldn’t break the law with rabies personally plus I have kids so I wouldn’t endanger them. A kid recently died from a bat scratch (showing also that all it takes is a play bite or scratch not necessarily an attack)... anyway I understand medical exemptions but I’m not for vaccine free either. For kids or pets. 

On a related topic, do you not give heartworm preventatives as well? Our vet said it was our choice, as heart worm isn’t prevalent here. We decided to give them because the disease is so serious. And now I’m glad we did as it turns out there are horrible and unexpected amounts of mosquitoes in our new neighborhood. (My kid needs antibiotics with almost every bite because she’s prone to infection on top of it all).


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

I would not break the law either. Shadow did not have a reaction to the 3yr. rabies. I will try to do the titer when he is supposed to get it again if I can find a different vet by then. I will only do the bordatella if I have to board him but I am looking for a person who will board at their home. My vet does agress that it is not that helpful in preventing kennel cough. Same with the flu vaccine.
I use Sentinel for heartworm/flea and have used it for over 20 years(other dogs). I did use Nexgard with Shadow for 4 months last year when I was finding ticks on him everytime he went for a walk in my hood. None of them were attached, but I've lived here for over 20 years and never had a tick on my dogs til last year. He is black and they are hard to see. 
The vets around here really pressure you to use one of the newer combo heartworm/flea/tick. Most all of my neighbors do use them on the advice of their vets. There have been 4 deaths on my street. All of the dogs were relatively young and seemed healthy. All started having seizures. All of them had started taking Trifexis in the months prior to the seizures starting. The owners were told that the dogs probably had brain tumors that caused the seizures. These were all smaller dogs(Bichon, West Highland Terrier). No proof but too coincidental for me. My vet says he has not seen this in his practice and these drugs are safe. 
If the tick thing starts again, I will deal with it but I won't be using one of the combo drugs. We go over this everytime I am there! For years now.
I think it all depends on your area and the lifestyle of your dog.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Melissa Woods said:


> Interesting. My vet does puppy vaccines and 1 year, then every 3 years. He also doesn't do the lepto vaccine. We agree on most things though he would neuter before I will.
> 
> I wouldn't break the law with rabies personally plus I have kids so I wouldn't endanger them. A kid recently died from a bat scratch (showing also that all it takes is a play bite or scratch not necessarily an attack)... anyway I understand medical exemptions but I'm not for vaccine free either. For kids or pets.
> 
> On a related topic, do you not give heartworm preventatives as well? Our vet said it was our choice, as heart worm isn't prevalent here. We decided to give them because the disease is so serious. And now I'm glad we did as it turns out there are horrible and unexpected amounts of mosquitoes in our new neighborhood. (My kid needs antibiotics with almost every bite because she's prone to infection on top of it all).


There a few things you can do to reduce the toxic load from heartworm meds. One simple thing is to use plain old Heartgard - NOT Heargard Plus. Heargard Plus has stuff in it for other types of worms which are not life threatening. The other thing you can do is have a pharmacist compound ivermectin specifically for your dog's weight so that you give the minimum effective dose. You can also give for only part of the year based upon where you live. There are maps out there that tell you when to start and stop. If you do these things your dog can still be protected with the minimum toxic load.

Going without heartworm meds is risky depending on where you live. What I do is more frequent testing for the actual microfilia and if they are found I give heartworm meds for a few months. Most tests check for the adult worms and the assumption is that your dog is on meds. I am not recommending anyone stop heartworm meds unless they are well educated and have a vet on board with what you are doing. My yorkie gets sick from heartworm meds and vomits his pill freqeuntly so I can not depend on these drugs protecting him. I also use topical repellents. Frequent testing is a good idea regardless because it can catch things earlier. In my area they recommend testing twice per year if your dog is not on year round meds but I would do this even if he was on year round meds.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Woods said:


> Interesting. My vet does puppy vaccines and 1 year, then every 3 years. He also doesn't do the lepto vaccine. We agree on most things though he would neuter before I will.
> 
> I wouldn't break the law with rabies personally plus I have kids so I wouldn't endanger them. A kid recently died from a bat scratch (showing also that all it takes is a play bite or scratch not necessarily an attack)... anyway I understand medical exemptions but I'm not for vaccine free either. For kids or pets.
> 
> On a related topic, do you not give heartworm preventatives as well? Our vet said it was our choice, as heartworm isn't prevalent here. We decided to give them because the disease is so serious. And now I'm glad we did as it turns out there are horrible and unexpected amounts of mosquitoes in our new neighborhood. (My kid needs antibiotics with almost every bite because she's prone to infection on top of it all).


I use heartworm prevention during the time of year that mosquitos are active and when it is warm enough for them to transmit microfilaria in our area (basically June through Oct., plus one more month (because you are always killing microfilaria from the previous month) I also only treat every 6 weeks (on my vet's recommendation. The dosing from the manufacturer is based on monthly because so many people forget, and it gives them some leeway on coverage. My vet told me that as long as I am very careful to do it ON THE 6 week mark according to the calendar, they are covered. So I mark my calendar, and they get it on the exact date, no matter what. So they get the very least amount of doses that they possibly can, and they also get Interceptor, which has no other added ingredients and has a long history of safety in our breed.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tere said:


> I would not break the law either. Shadow did not have a reaction to the 3yr. rabies. I will try to do the titer when he is supposed to get it again if I can find a different vet by then.


Just wanted to let you know that the waiver/titer option for Rabies vaccine is ONLY available for a dog that has had a previous documented life-threatening reaction to the Rabies vaccine or is so ill in some other way that the Rabies vaccine could threaten their life. That has to be documented by the veterinarian. It is not something an owner can simply choose to do. (assuming you are talking about doing it legally)


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

krandall said:


> Just wanted to let you know that the waiver/titer option for Rabies vaccine is ONLY available for a dog that has had a previous documented life-threatening reaction to the Rabies vaccine or is so ill in some other way that the Rabies vaccine could threaten their life. That has to be documented by the veterinarian. It is not something an owner can simply choose to do. (assuming you are talking about doing it legally)


But you can do titers for the other vaccine, right?
I had asked about the titers for my RIP Bichon. He was 14 years, 10 months old and was due for his rabies and the others. I did not want to do any shots. My vet refused to say he was too sick and he had never had a reaction. So I just did the rabies reluctantly. They really hassled me to do the other vaccines and I refused. That was end of Oct. He started to refuse meals after the vaccine. Nothing helped. He developed tumors in the course of a couple weeks. I had to let him go a couple days after his 15th. birthday. 
It still really hurts.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> Just wanted to let you know that the waiver/titer option for Rabies vaccine is ONLY available for a dog that has had a previous documented life-threatening reaction to the Rabies vaccine or is so ill in some other way that the Rabies vaccine could threaten their life. That has to be documented by the veterinarian. It is not something an owner can simply choose to do. (assuming you are talking about doing it legally)


My understanding is that a dog with a legal waiver is still treated as unvaccinated. In other words, in the event of biting someone or being accused of it, the dog could still be killed so that his brain can be examined. Therefore, other than having a good feeling about being legal, I am not seeing the advantage in getting the waiver. I will never vaccinate a dog of mine for anything where they have a titer proving immunity. I think we all know that vaccinating a dog for something he is already immune to is asking for trouble. I am not waiting for a life threatening event to occur. Everyone needs to make their own decision on this and determine what they can live with. I would never forgive myself if I revaccinated my dog knowing she was already immune, whether it resulted in a life threatening immediate reaction or simply caused her to scratch herself for the rest of her life. I will also be the one who decides if a previous reaction was bad enough. There are no waivers where I live so I need to make this decision myself.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Tere said:


> But you can do titers for the other vaccine, right?
> I had asked about the titers for my RIP Bichon. He was 14 years, 10 months old and was due for his rabies and the others. I did not want to do any shots. My vet refused to say he was too sick and he had never had a reaction. So I just did the rabies reluctantly. They really hassled me to do the other vaccines and I refused. That was end of Oct. He started to refuse meals after the vaccine. Nothing helped. He developed tumors in the course of a couple weeks. I had to let him go a couple days after his 15th. birthday.
> It still really hurts.


I am so sorry to hear about your poor Bichon. I do not know how some vets sleep at night. A dog this old should not receive ANY vaccines, especially one who is old or sick. This is such a common scenario. Lots of us have been there. Just learn from it and do not let it happen again to your current dog. In my NR groups they talk a about "teacher" dogs. Many of us have had one. Key thing is to learn from the experience. Try not to beat yourself up. You trusted Dr. Whitecoat to do what is best and unfortunately this is what can happen.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tere said:


> But you can do titers for the other vaccine, right?
> I had asked about the titers for my RIP Bichon. He was 14 years, 10 months old and was due for his rabies and the others. I did not want to do any shots. My vet refused to say he was too sick and he had never had a reaction. So I just did the rabies reluctantly. They really hassled me to do the other vaccines and I refused. That was end of Oct. He started to refuse meals after the vaccine. Nothing helped. He developed tumors in the course of a couple weeks. I had to let him go a couple days after his 15th. birthday.
> It still really hurts.


Yes, you can definitely titer for the others, and really, I wouldn't even bother titering a dog of that age. If he has EITHER been vaccinated regularly OR as had a proven titer in the past, it's a pretty sure bet that he is all set by that age.

Tough call on the Rabies. And, of course, there is no saying that the tumors were the result of the Rabies vaccine in an almost 15 year old dog. He'd had a pretty good run. Some vets might have given him a Rabies waiver just based on his age if you live in a state where Rabies waivers are available, but I know not all vets will.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I also want to point out that some people paint vets in general with a very broad, fairly tar-colored brush. Vets do NOT go to school for many years and put themselves in mountains of debt, then work for low pay in very stressful jobs just so they can mistreat animals. They may not have the same views as you do on how the animal should be treated, and if not, just as with human medicine, you may want to take your business elsewhere. But the vast majority of vets really do want the best for the animals they take care of. Trust me, they don't get that much else out of their profession.

Certainly educated yourself and advocate for your animals based on what YOU believe is best for you and your animal. Read widely, and look for the SOURCES behind what you read. Don't take everything you read on forums and FB groups as gospel either.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

I know you can't blame the tumors on the vaccine. This poor boy had gotten quite sick 3 years prior with pancreatitis. His liver enzymes were off the charts. Same vet said that he would not survive more than a couple days. He recovered after taking a milk thistle supplement. I could not prove the vaccine connection but it followed his vaccinations. 
Everyone marveled at how great he was doing as he approached 15:angel:, including the vet and his longtime groomer(who saw him 2 days before the vaccines). He was beautiful, lively and eating well. I was thankful for every day he was with and thought he might live to be 18 like my previous Bichon did. 
Proving what caused a health problem is next to impossible. The coincidence seemed probable to me. 
Shadow(my Havanese) will likely be my last dog unless I get him a friend. Romeo did teach me a lot. I have learned a lot over the years of dog ownership and need to learn more. 
I am thankful to everyone here who shares their insights and experience with others!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Tere said:


> I know you can't blame the tumors on the vaccine. This poor boy had gotten quite sick 3 years prior with pancreatitis. His liver enzymes were off the charts. Same vet said that he would not survive more than a couple days. He recovered after taking a milk thistle supplement. I could not prove the vaccine connection but it followed his vaccinations.
> Everyone marveled at how great he was doing as he approached 15:angel:, including the vet and his longtime groomer(who saw him 2 days before the vaccines). He was beautiful, lively and eating well. I was thankful for every day he was with and thought he might live to be 18 like my previous Bichon did.
> Proving what caused a health problem is next to impossible. The coincidence seemed probable to me.
> Shadow(my Havanese) will likely be my last dog unless I get him a friend. Romeo did teach me a lot. I have learned a lot over the years of dog ownership and need to learn more.
> I am thankful to everyone here who shares their insights and experience with others!


I think the reason vaccine adverse events are so under reported is because there is no real way to know for sure if the vaccines caused it or it is coincidental. However, sometimes the vet blows you off when you report something. My yorkie got a lump the size of my fist when he had a rabies shot. I was told this was normal. In your case, it does sound like the vaccine pushed him over the edge. Regardless, the vet should never have vaccinated him based upon his age and with his health conditions. My friend has a 3 pound 14 year old who the vet just vaccinated for both Lepto and rabies at the same time! She did not even want the Lepto shot and he said he did it to "protect his staff" since Lepto is transmittable to humans! The yorkie now has hypothyroidism and bad skin infections...I do not think this is coincidental. I know good vets exist however there are lots of bad ones too. I hope Shadow has a long and happy life! We are all learning and trying to become better pet parents.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

There is absolutely no question in my mind (in hindsight) that my puppy’s on and off diarrhea his first year was because of Heartguard plus. At least twice he had received it within a week of landing in the vet’s office and when I mentioned it to the vet (not our usual vet) he didn’t even try to hide his eye roll. So the next time I was almost embarrassed to mention it and didn’t press the issue as I should have. There’s a very good chance the problem is the other ingredients in the chew, or the combination of worming meds, but we weren’t able to have a real discussion about this because of the dynamic that was created. I think the most important thing in a vet are those basic communication skills for this reason. The vet could be the most skilled in the world, but if your communication styles don’t mesh at all, what’s the point? Information will become lost. A vet doesn’t necessarily have to be on the cutting edge of all the new research - just willing to listen and be open to considering it. If you feel like that is your vet, then I think you’re in a good place. Research what you can, get feedback from your vet, and collaborate. 

I didn’t know there is a heart worm preventative that is safer for Havanese, thank you for posting that, Karen. Fortunately we live in a dry climate, so we are going with testing for now, but we might need to reconsider preventatives at some point. 

I have to reiterate along with others, don’t be so hard on yourself!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> There is absolutely no question in my mind (in hindsight) that my puppy's on and off diarrhea his first year was because of Heartguard plus. At least twice he had received it within a week of landing in the vet's office and when I mentioned it to the vet (not our usual vet) he didn't even try to hide his eye roll. So the next time I was almost embarrassed to mention it and didn't press the issue as I should have. There's a very good chance the problem is the other ingredients in the chew, or the combination of worming meds, but we weren't able to have a real discussion about this because of the dynamic that was created. I think the most important thing in a vet are those basic communication skills for this reason. The vet could be the most skilled in the world, but if your communication styles don't mesh at all, what's the point? Information will become lost. A vet doesn't necessarily have to be on the cutting edge of all the new research - just willing to listen and be open to considering it. If you feel like that is your vet, then I think you're in a good place. Research what you can, get feedback from your vet, and collaborate.
> 
> I didn't know there is a heartworm preventative that is safer for Havanese, thank you for posting that, Karen. Fortunately we live in a dry climate, so we are going with testing for now, but we might need to reconsider preventatives at some point.
> 
> I have to reiterate along with others, don't be so hard on yourself!


We did use Heartgard for the period of time when Interceptor was off the market in the US (the factory here in the US burned down, and has since been rebuilt) and didn't have a problem with it. But since we DO live in an area where heartworm IS a problem in the warm months, (especially with all the rescue dogs brought up from the deep south, who ALL come up infected with Heartworm!) AND we have a solid track record of "no problems" with Interceptor, both with my personal dogs and with dogs in my dogs' bloodlines, so I prefer to stick with the "known" product.

I agree completely with your assessment of vets and their demeanor. The local vet that we first used for the dogs, and continued to use for our cat until her death, was very "traditional", but he also was very open to listening to what I had to say, and considering my input. He was completely willing to work with the alternative medicine vet when Snowbelle (the cat) needed low-level laser treatments for her arthritis in her old age. The local practice didn't offer this, so she went up to our integrative practice for her treatments, and they coordinated treatment with the local practice for everything else. THEY told ME that they didn't want to vaccinate her anymore when she was about 12, even though she lived to 17. (except for Rabies, since she was an in and outdoor cat, so Rabies was a bigger danger for her. But again, on a 3 year rotation, she only got that once during that period)

I think it was foolish for your vet not to listen to you about your concerns about your pup's reaction to the Heartgard. ANY animal (or human) can have a one-off reaction to ANY substance. It doesn't have to be common, and the vet doesn't have to have ever seen it before. If you only see an animal get sick ONCE after taking a specific medication, and it's mild, you might not want to jump to the conclusion that it was the med. When it continues to happen... It's kind of silly not to make the connection!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

To add to what EvaE1izabeth and Karen said, here is a great article written by a vet on red flags to look for that it is time to switch vets.

Five Red Flag Indicators That It?s Time to Find a New Vet ? Spot Speaks

With regard to heartworm, I have also opted for more frequent testing for both worms and microfilia as explained in the following article. Note that most vets test for adult worms only.

https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/dont-give-dogs-heartworm-meds-shouldnt-either/

With regard to flea, tick and heartworm meds I think we need to remember that they are all basically poisons and are not always the lesser of two evils, depending upon your dog and situation. Although Mia has not had any horrible reactions to heartworm meds, she is lethargic and off when on them. I used to think it was because of heat and humidity but realized it was heartworm meds.


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