# Missing teeth and conformation



## luvmehavs (Jun 11, 2009)

Should a breeder sell a hav with a missing incisor as a show puppy? If a hav is missing an incisor can they still be shown with success? Thanks for your help!


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

luvmehavs said:


> Should a breeder sell a hav with a missing incisor as a show puppy? If a hav is missing an incisor can they still be shown with success? Thanks for your help!


I'll be curious to hear what others say, but my perosnal opinion is, if I were buying a dog to show I wouldn't buy a dog without full dentition.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

luvmehavs said:


> Should a breeder sell a hav with a missing incisor as a show puppy? If a hav is missing an incisor can they still be shown with success? Thanks for your help!


Sounds like there's a whole story here. What's up?


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## luvmehavs (Jun 11, 2009)

I'm interested in starting showing and have been offered a show puppy, but the puppy lacks full dentition. I've been told this is common in Havanese and that a Hav can obtain a championship even lacking full dentition. Since I'm new to all this I'm just not sure what is correct or not. I would think a championship dog should have full dentition, but again I'm new and do not have any experience.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

luvmehavs said:


> I'm interested in starting showing and have been offered a show puppy, but the puppy lacks full dentition. I've been told this is common in Havanese and that a Hav can obtain a championship even lacking full dentition. Since I'm new to all this I'm just not sure what is correct or not. I would think a championship dog should have full dentition, but again I'm new and do not have any experience.


How old is the dog and who is making the offer?


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## luvmehavs (Jun 11, 2009)

The puppy is 6 months. I do not want to name the breeder. Is it common for Havs to have missing incisors and do others show Havs that have missing incisors? I'm just wondering if this is common or not. Thanks for your help!


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

luvmehavs said:


> The puppy is 6 months. I do not want to name the breeder. Is it common for Havs to have missing incisors and do others show Havs that have missing incisors? I'm just wondering if this is common or not. Thanks for your help!


http://books.google.com/books?id=6n...&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10#PPA204,M1


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

luvmehavs said:


> The puppy is 6 months. I do not want to name the breeder. Is it common for Havs to have missing incisors and do others show Havs that have missing incisors? I'm just wondering if this is common or not. Thanks for your help!


It shouldn't be common and the standard which is what the breed is to be judged by in the ring, calls for all teeth. I personally would not sell a show puppy that didn't have all it's teeth, that can be passed on too.


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## DAJsMom (Oct 27, 2006)

One of my dogs was not kept as a show prospect by her breeder partly because she does not have all of her upper incisors.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

DAJsMom said:


> One of my dogs was not kept as a show prospect by her breeder partly because she does not have all of her upper incisors.


If all the adult teeth are in and there is an incisor missing, that obviously isn't a show dog. If a puppy tooth just came out you can get an xray to see if there's a tooth that's going to come in.
There's an agenda here about a breeder and I'm not going to get in a wizzing match with them. So far we have a punctuate cataract, a missing incisor, and asking about a certain breeder. 
I'm all for stating your whole case and not throwing out bits and parts that may or may not be there


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

You really need to read the standard and get familiar with it. That's your true guide for what your show dog & breeding prospect should be. Likewise, you will benefit by finding a good mentor first, and then look for the show/breeding prospect after that. 

I also feel there's an agenda behind these questions and why you need to know your stuff before you trust a single person's idea of what their "sale" will do for you.


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## luvmehavs (Jun 11, 2009)

Thank you everyone for clearing this up for me. I'm glad to hear that this really isn't something that is okay for a show dog. There seems to be a lot of breeders on this site with tons of knowledge and I feel so lucky that I found it.


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## ItsMare (May 3, 2008)

Hello. Last year I purchased a show prospect dog that was 11 months old. He was missing teeth and this was not told to me prior to the sale. He had the teeth that are required to standard. 

I was so upset and called my new AKC mentor, as I am new to showing. I was told this is not ok, then I attended a show and told it was ok. It can be confusing for sure. His championship completed this past June.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

ItsMare, only the Havanese standard can tell you with certainty if it is okay for showing. 

You need to determine your own ethics if you are going to breed a dog without full dentition, and many people will set their judgments on you based on your decisions in this area.


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

luvmehavs said:


> The puppy is 6 months. I do not want to name the breeder. Is it common for Havs to have missing incisors and do others show Havs that have missing incisors? I'm just wondering if this is common or not. Thanks for your help!


Missing incisors are a no-no. You need to have 6 on the top, 6 on the bottom and all 4 canines in a scissor bite. Ocassionally there will a dog that is missing premolars-this is not a fault and can be seen in many smaller toy dogs also. Of course, you would rather have all premolars, as that is preferred.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

peluitohavanese said:


> Missing incisors are a no-no. You need to have 6 on the top, 6 on the bottom and all 4 canines in a scissor bite. Ocassionally there will a dog that is missing premolars-this is not a fault and can be seen in many smaller toy dogs also. Of course, you would rather have all premolars, as that is preferred.


Thanks for explaining this, Arlene. Kodi's mouth is just fine, but I like to learn all about the breed that I can. This thread was confusing me. Now I can see that it depends on the TYPE of teeth that are missing.


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

This is what the standard says regarding teeth:



> A scissors bite is ideal. Full complement of incisors preferred.


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## Ina (Jan 4, 2010)

*puppy teeth*



peluitohavanese said:


> Missing incisors are a no-no. You need to have 6 on the top, 6 on the bottom and all 4 canines in a scissor bite. Ocassionally there will a dog that is missing premolars-this is not a fault and can be seen in many smaller toy dogs also. Of course, you would rather have all premolars, as that is preferred.


At what age do the front teeth are all in? Are they sometimes late.


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## Cailleach (Jan 30, 2010)

I was under the impression that even if a tooth was slightly crooked the dog would not be of show quality.:tape:


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Ina, Teeth usually show up by the 5th week. Sometimes they may be later. We've had two puppies leave here, different breedings, with 5 over 6 puppy teeth, but when the adult teeth came in they had 6 over 6. We have one puppy out now that's 12 weeks old whose lower canines just came through, although the bumps for them have been there for weeks.

There are many dogs who have finished with missing teeth, overcrowded teeth, or other dentition issues.

There are all sorts of dentition issues, but to me the worst is overcrowding because it seems like it would have to create problems cleaning the teeth as the dog ages. The dogs I've seen with overcrowded teeth have had very narrow jaws.

One of the girls we've kept, Frolic, is 6/5 but one of the 5 on the bottom is a fused tooth. It's like a wide tooth with a groove in the middle that looks like it tried to be two teeth. Some people don't consider fusion to be a dentition issue. We would have never sold her as a show/breeding prospect, but she had everything else going for her, so we decided to try her. Bred to Posh, she has never produced anything but 6/6.

Picture below is Juego's teeth at about a year. He has one lower tooth a little crowded but not bad. We wouldn't place a show prospect with teeth any worse than these. Juego is out of Frolic,as mentioned above, by Posh and this is typical of what they produce. We would not have sold Frolic as a show prospect but she's producing nice puppies.


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## Ina (Jan 4, 2010)

Tom King said:


> Ina, Teeth usually show up by the 5th week. Sometimes they may be later. We've had two puppies leave here, different breedings, with 5 over 6 puppy teeth, but when the adult teeth came in they had 6 over 6. We have one puppy out now that's 12 weeks old whose lower canines just came through, although the bumps for them have been there for weeks.
> 
> There are many dogs who have finished with missing teeth, overcrowded teeth, or other dentition issues.
> 
> ...


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Cailleach said:


> I was under the impression that even if a tooth was slightly crooked the dog would not be of show quality.:tape:


What does the Canadian standard for Havanese say about teeth? That's where you'd find your answer.


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## Ina (Jan 4, 2010)

Havtahava said:


> What does the Canadian standard for Havanese say about teeth? That's where you'd find your answer.


All I have been able to find so far is scissor bite and full dentition prefered.


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## Cailleach (Jan 30, 2010)

Ina said:


> All I have been able to find so far is scissor bite and full dentition prefered.


That is all I have found also for CKC definition also. It is other people who show that have advised it is best to not consider any dog without perfect teeth. Perhaps the people I know are very picky, it's quite competitive in this province.


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## Ina (Jan 4, 2010)

Cailleach said:


> That is all I have found also for CKC definition also. It is other people who show that have advised it is best to not consider any dog without perfect teeth. Perhaps the people I know are very picky, it's quite competitive in this province.


In order to have a scissor bit you need good front teeth. If there is one missing in the back I don't think there is a problem. Of course some people will tell you different. I don't think the judge is going to count all the teeth, but just check the bite. It is prefered to have all the teeth but a lot of toy miss one or more. Their mouth is so small that there may not be room for all of them.


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