# AKC PAPERS



## Suzi

Hi

I am wondering if their is a way to find out about a breeder threw AKC 

Maddie was sold to us with limited papers She was also listed as show potential . At the time I was interested in learning about showing her. I had no idea that limited AKC paper work also means they are limited to show. That disappoints me.
I have fishie feelings about the breeder. One is that their were two litters a week apart. One litter AKC the other not. can a breeder cheat and sell a none papered puppy as AKC to get more money.
Can I look up the history of the breeder somehow? to see how many litters they register? and what linkage they are.?
If we find they are a puppy mill and cheat can we do something about it? 
If Maddie grows up to be show stander ed can I change her papers to full papers? The breeder said he would leave it open but rarely ever will do that.


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## LilyMyLove

Well, live and learn. The situation sounds very shady. You don't have a whole lot of recourse financially-especially if you signed a limited contract. If you are interested in having a dog for showing, the best thing you can do is to do your research and become prepared before you purchase another dog-and do not purchase another one from a mill/shady backyard breeder.

Enjoy your girl she is adorable.:biggrin1:


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## Thumper

Do you have the names of your puppies' parents? Their full names, so to speak? If you have those you may be able to look up some lineage, what does it say on your akc papers?

Kara


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## The Laughing Magpie

Suzi, Rarely does a breeder know if a pup has show potential until they grow up a bit and that is how some very good breeders have an older pup for sale. Sometimes they limit the reg. because they don't want some one breeding. If you are a first time buyer wanting to show and have never done it with any dog, there are a few breeders who will give you a chance, but your contract may say that you have to show and earn their title before they will sign off and take their name off as part owner or you have to spay if intend to keep the dog. If you have a show contract and you do not put your dog in conformation classes and start going out they will ask for the dog back. Have you tried talking to the breeder? On a limited Reg. you can still do all the sports and fun things, just not conformation and you can't breed AKC puppies.


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## The Laughing Magpie

Suzi, One more thing do you mean your dog is not AKC and maybe one of the others?


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## juliav

It is very common and most reputable breeders sell their AKC registered (champion sired) puppies with limited registration. Usually, full registration comes with co-ownership until the puppy is a finished champion. Who did you get your puppy from?


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## Suzi

I got my puppy from Ludmila Wilson
Her sires name is Kingdom Hearts Roxas and the Dams name is Kingdom Hearts Monkey.
I really do not know any thing about showing. I thought it might be fun. 
My question was if their is two litters and one litter is not AKC and the other is how does the AKC no if one of the puppys being papered might really be from the other litter. Like say the Litter that is not registered has some better looking puppies could they sluff them off as the AKC litter ?
My breeder bought a female somewhere at the Oregon coast that female supposedly had champion background I do not remember the name but was shown pictures. The wilsons thought they could get full papers and said they were still working on it. I do not know why they went ahead and breed her. We wanted a registered AKC pup. and maddie was the only cream and black out of the litter. I thought it was funny because the price of her was more than the rest because she was show potential . At least that is what they wrote in our contract. 
All in all I love Maddie to pieces . I am worried about skin issues and would like to find out about her grandparents ect. I looked up offa.org to see if the wilsons had their Havanese health tested. I'm not sure I did it right.
We are going to start with a puppy class I have been training her to jump over little jumps that I made. She is a great jumper ! Maybe we will Join the circus


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## Tom King

Actually, being able to sell a puppy with a choice of Limited or Unlimited registration is the main benefit to the dogs that AKC offers. It's the one way that responsible breeders can almost make sure that dogs they produce will not end up in puppy mills. So many new breeders get into it and will sell a puppy whenever they get the chance regardless of Limited or not. We have sold about 5 puppies out of a couple of hundred over 12 years with Unlimited, and then only to close friends that we 100% trust what they are going to do with the dog. You will not find Starborn in any puppy mill pedigree unless it's there by fraud.

If we sold a puppy with Unlimited to someone we didn't know and they sold a puppy to someone who slipped through a good interview process, the numbers could very quickly grow in puppy mills with otherwise good kennel names on the pedigrees.


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## CacheHavs

I just went and looked on OFA's web site to see if any of their dogs were health tested, and not one showed up in the data base. That is very unfortunate, hopefully your little girl will stay healthy. I also went onto the gallery to see if I could find any linage for your girl, but again they do not have their dogs listed there either.

Is there a web site for your breeder?


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## galaxie

They sound like a scam to me - definitely BYB or something worse.


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## Suzi

*PHONE NUMBER OF THE PEOPLE*

NO they do dont have a web site although they have another litter in the paper AKC Havanese 2 boys One girl. And two my disappointment a mix. And that is what worries me that if someone like me who does not know what they are doing could end up with a mix thinking they were buying a pure bread Havanese.
They mentioned that if I was to get a full papered Havenese I would pay about Five hundred dolls more. But did charge me extra saying she had show potential 
Jim is the husband and I think they started the breeding business because he hurt himself working. He said you do not make any money breeding in less you have lots of dogs. Another red flag.uke: 
Thank you for taking the time to help look into My Maddies past.


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## CacheHavs

I wish I could have helped you more, unfortunately the breeder does not sound very reputable, but I know you will love your baby no matter what.


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## Thumper

Despite it all...I know your baby found the perfect home where she will be loved and cherished. I don't show and breed, so I do not know much about evaluating for show quality, but I do know she's beautiful! And you love her. That will make for a very happy ending 

Kara


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## Suzi

I guess I will just have to wait and see. I would like to learn more about showing I think it would be fun. Her hair needs to grow back . Our breeder said that he might consider full papers for more money. I do not see the point if Maddie has skin problems that could be passed down. And if she does not grow to be a standerd size. 
Thank you for helping . Do you know any one near West Linn Oregon who shows Havanese? Would like a mentor


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## Thumper

What I would do if I were you is go to a local AKC show and watch them, hang out..check it out, talk to breeders, meet some havanese breeders, figure out if it is something you want to do.

Show dogs cost money, entering them cost money, grooming cost money, traveling, etc. Showing dogs is an expensive hobby (or so I've been told by someone who does it) and you'll likely go into a co-ownership agreement with the breeder for the first year or two,

Explore it, there may even be classes or clubs in your area,

Kara


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## galaxie

Suzi said:


> NO they do dont have a web site although they have another litter in the paper AKC Havanese 2 boys One girl. And two my disappointment a mix. And that is what worries me that if someone like me who does not know what they are doing could end up with a mix thinking they were buying a pure bread Havanese.
> They mentioned that if I was to get a full papered Havenese I would pay about Five hundred dolls more. But did charge me extra saying she had show potential
> Jim is the husband and I think they started the breeding business because he hurt himself working. He said you do not make any money breeding in less you have lots of dogs. Another red flag.uke:
> Thank you for taking the time to help look into My Maddies past.


It's illegal for them to charge you for the papers. It's either AKC or it's not.


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## Suzi

LilyMyLove said:


> Well, live and learn. The situation sounds very shady. You don't have a whole lot of recourse financially-especially if you signed a limited contract. If you are interested in having a dog for showing, the best thing you can do is to do your research and become prepared before you purchase another dog-and do not purchase another one from a mill/shady backyard breeder.
> 
> Enjoy your girl she is adorable.:biggrin1:


 what if My dog proves to be a standard Havanese who would be qualified As a worthily dog to the breed!


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## Suzi

I realize I am causing a contravention here . I really do not think my dog is ready to be sterilized. I think she needs to mature and grow into her self before anyone makes me spay her. I would challenge her breeder to collect money from me if I do otherwise. I would like for Maddie to be given a chance to be at least a year and a half before anyone tells me I have to spay her. My reasoning is I really think she is going to surprise us all


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## LilyMyLove

Suzi said:


> what if My dog proves to be a standard Havanese who would be qualified As a worthily dog to the breed!


I am not exactly sure what you mean, but Ill take it to mean that you are saying your dog could exemplify the "AKC standard" and be a "show quality" Havanese. I was merely responding to your inquiry about the papers you had signed and the provenance of your pup. Let me state some facts, correct me if I am wrong as I havent been on here in a while:

1) The dog has a serious skin condition, and has had some health problems since showing up at your home

2) The breeders advertise in the paper and do not have a website outlining their breeding program

3) The Breeder's Dam and Sire are not registered in the OFFA database, which leads me to believe there was not proper health testing done.

4) You SIGNED a AKC limited registration agreement, which legally binds you to spaying the dog by 6 months and not breeding or showing it.

I am not sure why you want to push the issue so much. You said she is a good jumper and if you want to show her because it would be something fun to do, as you say-you could do agility with her on her limited registration or train her as a therapy dog.

Lest you think I am being unfair or discriminatory, Lily's Dam and Sire have all of their health testing listed on OFFA, she has had no health problems other than her luxating patella in the year and a half that I have had her, but she still has issues that would make her unsuitable for showing. But it doesn't matter anyway because she is a pet, and I signed a contract as such. I have so much fun with her and we have our first Agility class tomorrow. Hopefully she will enjoy it and do well.

With all of the drama surrounding the spay, I have to ask: Are you planning on breeding this dog?


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## pjewel

I think there are two issues here. Number one, you signed a binding contract with limited registration and now you want to change the rules. It sounds very much like you want to breed, which would be a big mistake on so many levels, aside from resulting in a breach of contract. Puppies that result in a case like this cannot be registered, therefore would not make them salable as purebred AKC havanese. The second issue is the issues your dog has that suggest she should not be bred. You have so much more to learn if you ever want to get into breeding, which coincidentally is not the money making venture some people think it is. That alone is a good reason for reputable breeders only selling on limited registration unless the co own and can have some control over the future of that dog. 

It sounds like you'd like to reproduce that cute dog, but there's so much more to it than that. I think you should just enjoy her and get into obedience training if you want to participate in that way.


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## krandall

Suzi said:


> If we find they are a puppy mill and cheat can we do something about it?
> If Maddie grows up to be show stander ed can I change her papers to full papers? The breeder said he would leave it open but rarely ever will do that.


Since dogs are considered property, even if you were able to prove your claim, and spent the money to take the breeder to court, your "relief" would be no more than your monetary losses. Assuming you wouldn't want to give Maddie back for a different puppy, your losses would only be the possible price difference between a "pet quality puppy" and a "show quality puppy" with full registration FROM THAT BREEDER.

Hardly ever worth the costs involved, and hardly anyone wants to give up their now beloved pet. Enjoy Maddie and learn from the mistakes you've made, and what you've read on this forum on how to find a good breeder and how to pick a good dog for any future puppies you choose.


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## krandall

Suzi said:


> what if My dog proves to be a standard Havanese who would be qualified As a worthily dog to the breed!


Suzi, you have become a loved member of this community, and I don't want to hurt your feelings. But Maddie, whether she grew up to LOOK like perfection in terms of the AKC standard would STILL not be a good breeding prospect. She has already had health problems and, worse, her parents have not been health tested. It is ENTIRELY possible for poor genes not to show in a dog, but still be passed on to her puppies or even her puppies puppies.

Maddie is an ADORABLE pet... and it sounds like she's a GREAT agility prospect. THAT can keep you MORE than busy enough in the show ring! Kodi has two champion parents who come from a long line of completely health tested dogs. HE is a beautiful, healthy dog with straight legs and a gorgeous coat. Even so, I wouldn't have even CONSIDERED keeping him un-neutered, even if the Kings had given me that option. I just don't know enough about dog breeding. And frankly, that's not my thing! I'd MUCH rather train with him and show in Rally, Obedience and Agility.


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## krandall

Suzi said:


> I realize I am causing a contravention here . I really do not think my dog is ready to be sterilized. I think she needs to mature and grow into her self before anyone makes me spay her. I would challenge her breeder to collect money from me if I do otherwise. I would like for Maddie to be given a chance to be at least a year and a half before anyone tells me I have to spay her. My reasoning is I really think she is going to surprise us all


Letting her MATURE before spaying her is a COMPLETELY different issue. There are certainly studies that support putting off spaying or neutering until the dog is fully mature physically. That's a COMPLETELY different issue than wanting full registration, meaning you can breed the dog. I'd be surprised if a breeder would have a big problem with you postponing her spay if you really felt it was better for her health. (though it's a REAL pain in the neck to manage an in-heat bitch!!!) That's not the same thing as giving you a full registration.

I'd worry even more about the legitimacy of your breeder if they were willing to give you full registration after all you've told us.


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## Paige

Suzi, This is my boy Preston. I got him from some wonderful people, who like you thought their dogs looked great and wanted to start breeding. They like you had the best intentions. Like your havanese, the parents were not health tested. However, Preston's parents don't have the bowed legs that Preston has. so, like you how would they know that one of the parents carried this gene. I just wanted to show you what can happen, when breeding isn't done the correct way, breeding dogs or any animal is a huge responsiblity and should not be taken lightly. They offered to take Preston back, but he was my baby from the moment I brought him home, and they gave me Simon, they felt so bad, for what had happened. But in the end it's Preston who has to live with any problems that arise from their not taking breeding as serious as it needs to be taken. He has also recently developed skin problem, which is also gentic. I hope seeing Preston makes you think twice about breeding your girl. If you want to breed start from the begining and find a great breeder who will mentor you, and learn all there is to learn about producing healthy dogs. Enjoy your little girl she is beautiful.


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## Suzi

We were sold Maddie as pet I misread the the contract. I thought she wrote Show potential . 
I'm just not ready to have her spayed. We talked to our vet and when we do spay her we are going to have her foot x ray . And send blood work to the
SA study. 
If the backyard breeder does not agree to letting me decide when she is to be spayed I will just not register her with the AKC .


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## krandall

Suzi said:


> We were sold Maddie as pet I misread the the contract. I thought she wrote Show potential .
> I'm just not ready to have her spayed. We talked to our vet and when we do spay her we are going to have her foot x ray . And send blood work to the
> SA study.
> If the backyard breeder does not agree to letting me decide when she is to be spayed I will just not register her with the AKC .


Suzi, I'd be very surprised if your breeder would have a big problem with you DELAYING having her spayed, particularly if you and your vet have valid reasons for it.

Kodi was neutered A LITTLE late, just because he got an infection shortly before he turned 6 months and the vet wanted to be sure it was COMPLETELY gone before he operated on him. It was no problem at all.


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## GoldenLove

If you really want a full registration the breeder would have to revoke the limited status. Its a simple form with a $25 fee. 

I agree with waiting till the dog is matured before neutering/spaying. However, everyone has a different outlook on that subject.


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## Suzi

I do not have a very good relationship with them. I have written several Emails trying to get them to do the right thing with there breeding program. And I feel sorry for the breeding dogs they have. I think what happened to maddie was she arrived sick. I think the mother was sick and she passed on Coccidia to the litter. And I think Maddie had Mites. Our vet said it was not mange. I am hopping she does not have the SA. And that her foot got funnie in the womb.
Because they did not have the breeding dogs health tested I would not even consider breeding her. My hopes were to practice with her to learn if I like showing and get my confidence up to go in the show ring. And being a dreamer I keep thinking she would get tons of ribbons!


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## GoldenLove

yea, I wouldnt breed in those conditions. 

Your Maddie is super cute!


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## kudo2u

Because they did not have the breeding dogs health tested I would not even consider breeding her. My hopes were to practice with her to learn if I like showing and get my confidence up to go in the show ring. And being a dreamer I keep thinking she would get tons of ribbons!


I think this is a great idea! While you're doing other things with Maddie (agility, obedience, etc.) you can get to know breeders who are also at these shows. They can help you in may areas, and every breeder I know is more than happy to do so.

Delaying the spay for health reasons is one thing, and is something that your vet can provide guidance on. If the vet suggests you wait, that is something any good breeder will listen to and work with you on.


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## krandall

Suzi said:


> I do not have a very good relationship with them. I have written several Emails trying to get them to do the right thing with there breeding program. And I feel sorry for the breeding dogs they have. I think what happened to maddie was she arrived sick. I think the mother was sick and she passed on Coccidia to the litter. And I think Maddie had Mites. Our vet said it was not mange. I am hopping she does not have the SA. And that her foot got funnie in the womb.
> Because they did not have the breeding dogs health tested I would not even consider breeding her. My hopes were to practice with her to learn if I like showing and get my confidence up to go in the show ring. And being a dreamer I keep thinking she would get tons of ribbons!


Suzi, my training center has classes to prepare dogs and their owners for showing in the breed ring. You could always do a class like that with Maddie, just to learn how to do it, even if you weren't going to show her.

BUT _I_ think you and Maddie are going to win LOTS of ribbons in Agility. (and obedience and rally if you want... they are fun too!!!) You don't need ribbons in conformation too!


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## Julie

Paige said:


> Suzi, This is my boy Preston. I got him from some wonderful people, who like you thought their dogs looked great and wanted to start breeding. They like you had the best intentions. Like your havanese, the parents were not health tested. However, Preston's parents don't have the bowed legs that Preston has. so, like you how would they know that one of the parents carried this gene. I just wanted to show you what can happen, when breeding isn't done the correct way, breeding dogs or any animal is a huge responsiblity and should not be taken lightly. They offered to take Preston back, but he was my baby from the moment I brought him home, and they gave me Simon, they felt so bad, for what had happened. But in the end it's Preston who has to live with any problems that arise from their not taking breeding as serious as it needs to be taken. He has also recently developed skin problem, which is also gentic. I hope seeing Preston makes you think twice about breeding your girl. If you want to breed start from the begining and find a great breeder who will mentor you, and learn all there is to learn about producing healthy dogs. Enjoy your little girl she is beautiful.


Well said Paige---and thank you for showing us my crush..Preston! :kiss: So many things can happen that breeding would be something only someone well versed in genetics and years of mentoring should enter in my opinion.

Good luck with Maddie.....and oh.....I think we all think our havs are just perfect show quality havs....unfortunately VERY few actually are. Your breeder could actually have had 1 litter AKC registered and 1 not..and switch up puppies as they felt without anyone's knowledge. When a litter is registered (according to my past AKC registered dogs) they send in the birth stating the dam and sire and stating how many puppies....lets say 5...they will get papers to give owners for only the stated 5 puppies. On that AKC paperwork there are 2 boxes...1 full registration...1 limited registration. Full registration is able to breed and register those pups.....limited would be you could paper,but never breed with proper AKC paperwork (basically mutts to a person buying because of lack of paperwork...even though they could be purebred).
That being said...your breeder could over state the number in the litter ...above I said 5....but lets say that because 2 litters were born close together...maybe the AKC papered dam really only had 3 puppies. They could get 2 extra sets of papers and scam 2 extra people (charging more because they are papered) even though really...they are not even the true pups. It is scary and the reason I think if possible---to get to know your breeder and develop a relationship. Trust is huge. JMHO.


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## TrishK

Ok, so I have a question then...Please keep in mind that I know nothing about anything show dog related...My Sammy is a pure Havanese according to the papers I got with his adoption. The papers state he is not registered and it lists his sire and dam, both of whose names appear nowhere online to be found as it appears the breeder that Sammy's prior humans got him from was a backyard breeder. All of this is neither here nor there for me as he is a pet, (BTW, he is neutered); however, if I decided I wanted to do agility stuff with Sammy, if he shows an aptitude for it, would I be allowed to do that with the papers or lack thereof that I have?


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## Suzi

Thank you all for taking the time to hear me out. I wrote the breeder another note to see if they would agree to wait tell after her first heat. Feb is to soon for me. I found the contract and it says they can take Maddie back if I do not spay her by feb 11. She only has a year for major genetic health problems. And if she does they will take her back or pay $500.00 towards bills.


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## Suzi

TrishK said:


> Ok, so I have a question then...Please keep in mind that I know nothing about anything show dog related...My Sammy is a pure Havanese according to the papers I got with his adoption. The papers state he is not registered and it lists his sire and dam, both of whose names appear nowhere online to be found as it appears the breeder that Sammy's prior humans got him from was a backyard breeder. All of this is neither here nor there for me as he is a pet, (BTW, he is neutered); however, if I decided I wanted to do agility stuff with Sammy, if he shows an aptitude for it, would I be allowed to do that with the papers or lack thereof that I have?


 You can do agility just not in AKC shows. You can take a class and maybe the training center knows about different competitions.


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## TrishK

Maybe if the vet writes a note saying that due to her small size yet that it would be better to wait for a little bit they might be more agreeable to wait. I'm guessing that the ideal age for spaying is probably rather subjective and since she is still rather small maybe the vet would say that its not unreasonable to wait a while then its not an arbitrary decision on your part.


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## TrishK

Suzi said:


> You can do agility just not in AKC shows. You can take a class and maybe the training center knows about different competitions.


okay cool. I will have to look into it and read up 'cuz I think it would be something fun and purposeful for Billy and Sammy to do together.


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## krandall

TrishK said:


> Ok, so I have a question then...Please keep in mind that I know nothing about anything show dog related...My Sammy is a pure Havanese according to the papers I got with his adoption. The papers state he is not registered and it lists his sire and dam, both of whose names appear nowhere online to be found as it appears the breeder that Sammy's prior humans got him from was a backyard breeder. All of this is neither here nor there for me as he is a pet, (BTW, he is neutered); however, if I decided I wanted to do agility stuff with Sammy, if he shows an aptitude for it, would I be allowed to do that with the papers or lack thereof that I have?


There are many "flavors" of agility, and in most, it doesn't matter one bit what breed the dog is or whether they have papers. For AKC agility, the dog USED to have to be an AKC registered, pure bred dog. Now they have a "companion" registration that is available to ANY dog, including entirely mixed breeds, allowing any dog to compete in performance classes. (agility, rally and obedience)

It is still up to the local club that is holding the event whether they will accept entries from non-registered dogs in their AKC events, though, so you do need to check into that locally. If your local AKC trials don't accept unregistered dogs, there are still USDAA, NADAC, CPE and other organizations that sanction agility trials all over the country. There's still something for everybody!


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## krandall

Suzi said:


> You can do agility just not in AKC shows. You can take a class and maybe the training center knows about different competitions.


Hi Suzi, as of last spring, even mixed breed dogs can compete in AKC performance competitions. (Agility, rally and obedience)


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## TrishK

Cool thanks. I'm guessing CKC will have similar rules to AKC. Billy's going to build an obstacle course in the yard in the summer. Should be fun.


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## krandall

Sorry, I don't know anything about CKC, but I'm sure you can find out on their web site. I also know there's a LOT of agility in Canada, and it's NOT all pure bred dogs. So I'm SURE there are venues that accept unregistered dogs, even if it's not CKC.


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## TrishK

Thanks Karen, I will look into it more and see what I find out.


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## Suzi

That will be fun for them to do together! I went to Home Depot and used PCP pipe The nice guy helping me even cut the pieces for me I had no Idea what I was doing. So take a class first and see what it is all about


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## TrishK

I think we will go to garage sales and see what kind of stuff, scrap wood, building material, etc. we can find on the cheap and Billy will build it as a shop class.:biggrin1:


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## The Laughing Magpie

You can still do AKC events if you get a PAL/IPL number from the AKC. My dog Yogi was a rescue and uses a IPL number. If you go to AKC org. It explains the process. Sports with your dog is really fun and you meet a lot of nice people. Where I live there are more events for AKC then the others. That way we can do what ever is near.


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## krandall

TrishK said:


> I think we will go to garage sales and see what kind of stuff, scrap wood, building material, etc. we can find on the cheap and Billy will build it as a shop class.:biggrin1:


Suzi is right, PVC is REALLY cheap, easy to work with and light weight to move around. You can get plans for all sorts of agility equipment on line. Of course, the big contacts need to be made of something solid, not PVC, but you won't need those to start with, if at all. The MOST important thing to have at home is weave poles, since those require a lot of practice to get good at. With a set of weaves and a few jumps you can practice most of the handling skills you will need for agility. With the contacts, you can usually do them at the training center, since once the dog knows them, they usually don't require a lot of practice.

Oh, and since Havs are small, you can get away with toddler play tunnels from Toys'R'Us or on line. They're cheap too!

(Suzi, if you don't have a tunnel yet, I bet your girls would have a blast with one, and THAT is FINE even for young puppies!)

Karen


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## morriscsps

Umm... have you been around a female in heat? It isn't much fun... at all. General messiness (special diapers are needed sometimes), mood swings, personality changes (female dogs are called bitches for a reason) and forget about normal walks. You might as well get her the stiletto heels and red dress. Hussy alert. 

This goes on for 3 weeks straight. Egads! No way. 3 weeks of having her trapped in the house. No classes, no agility, no unsupervised anything.


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## TrishK

you guys should all post pics of your agility stuff  pvc to me is plumbing pipe...am I missing something here?

anyway :focus: sorry didnt mean to hijack the thread away from papers


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## morriscsps

I will start an agility thread so people can post. I have made jumps.


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## Kathie

That should be great for Billy and Sammy, Trish!


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## Suzi

TrishK said:


> you guys should all post pics of your agility stuff  pvc to me is plumbing pipe...am I missing something here?
> 
> anyway :focus: sorry didnt mean to hijack the thread away from papers


 I'm tired of the papers thing!
I'm so excited I found a women who shows near me and she has a pup that is a mo older than zoey! Yea she is willing to help me figure out all the things I need to know. We are going to meet at a coffee shop that lets dogs in. My HD would kill me taking her somewhere before all her shots. That is so hard she does not get her 3rd shot tell the 19th. I guess I have to wait and protect the little baby. Maddie could come


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## krandall

TrishK said:


> you guys should all post pics of your agility stuff  pvc to me is plumbing pipe...am I missing something here?
> 
> anyway :focus: sorry didnt mean to hijack the thread away from papers


Yes, PVC is plumbing pipe.... If you happen to be a plumber. If you have dogs, it's AGILITY EQUIPMENT!!!!:biggrin1:


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## krandall

Suzi said:


> I'm tired of the papers thing!
> I'm so excited I found a women who shows near me and she has a pup that is a mo older than zoey! Yea she is willing to help me figure out all the things I need to know. We are going to meet at a coffee shop that lets dogs in. My HD would kill me taking her somewhere before all her shots. That is so hard she does not get her 3rd shot tell the 19th. I guess I have to wait and protect the little baby. Maddie could come


Yeah, it's hard, but I wouldn't take her someplace with a lot of strange dogs until after all her shots. You'll just have to go to the coffee shop twice! (sounds like fun anyway!)


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## TrishK

krandall said:


> Yes, PVC is plumbing pipe.... If you happen to be a plumber. If you have dogs, it's AGILITY EQUIPMENT!!!!:biggrin1:


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