# Finally an answer for clean teeth!!!



## Tom King

http://www.international-dental.com/ Even for dogs that have a fair amount of tartar buildup. After they have been taking this for a few weeks, the tartar comes off with a little scraping but nothing like the pressure required normally.

We've put all our dogs on it now and will let you know how it goes in a few months.

If you poke around that site you can find places to buy it both online and retail.


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## RIstream

We'll be looking forward to what you think.


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## Poornima

I look forward to hearing your feedback on this.


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## SMARTY

Your feedback on this would be greatly appreciated. Tom, thanks for keeping us in the loop.


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## Janet Zee

Tom........Thanks for the info, keep us posted.


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## Sheri

Tom, thanks! I'll be anxious to read your opinion on this!!!!

I think this is the stuff that Jerome in France uses!


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## DanielBMe

Here's a review

http://www.buzzillions.com/dz_153118_international_dental_proden_plaqueoff_reviews


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## DAJsMom

Have you tried it already, Tom? One of my dogs has tartar problems, and I'd love to have something that works well!


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## Thumper

Tom,

Please follow up and let us know how it works, I'm leary of this because it is the type of thing I'd put on Gucci's food and she'd boycott because of the smell (algae! lol) I'd hate to waste $50, lol

On another note, your new puppies are precious! Lots of them too! Mom will be busy!


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## Tom King

DAJsmom, We were given a sample several months ago and used it on Imme who hates to have her teeth scraped. We don't anesthesize dogs for teeth. She's 9 (I think) and her teeth look like a 2 year olds now and we haven't touched them.

Another owner, who we trust and is an expert on grooming, also tested on one of her dogs and she is the one who told about how easy it was to scrape the tartar off.

I read all the reviews and the only one that really raised any kind of warning was the one with a cat with hypothyroid. We don't have that trouble but if anyone one does it would be worth looking more into it.

So far it looks pretty promising.


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## Tom King

Kara, I don't know what to tell you. Imme will eat , well more like inhale, anything. I can send you a little to taste test if you like.


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## Judy A

Are there tests done to know what the long term affects might be on the rest of the body??? I was just wondering if anyone knows.....


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## Jérôme

Sheri said:


> Tom, thanks! I'll be anxious to read your opinion on this!!!!
> 
> I think this is the stuff that Jerome in France uses!


Yes this is what I am using and it is easy to remove tartar if it comes which is not often the case


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## DAJsMom

Dusty is about 2 1/2 and her teeth look terrible. Maybe I will give this a try. I may have to have her teeth cleaned and then start fresh.


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## marjrc

If it works and there are no ill effects to the dog, then great!! 

I still like feeding raw, meaty bones for really clean teeth though, but not everyone will or can do that. This might be a great option. Will be interested in hearing more, Tom.


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## RikiDaisyDixie

*Tom, what about havvie itchies?*

I've changed diet back to raw and added supplements. Still itchy.

We played in the grass all day one day and now she is going nuts itching, so it could be grass allergy. You know about a lot of good stuff, what do you recommend?

Southern California is full of allergens.


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## Tom King

Sorry, I don't have a lot of experience with "itchy". One of our farm dogs had a hot spot starting and Pam found a spray on Colloidial Silver which cleared that up but for overall itching I just don't know.


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## RikiDaisyDixie

*colloidal silver*

I have some in the fridge. I could try that.


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## Kathy

Tom King said:


> http://www.international-dental.com/ Even for dogs that have a fair amount of tartar buildup. After they have been taking this for a few weeks, the tartar comes off with a little scraping but nothing like the pressure required normally.
> 
> We've put all our dogs on it now and will let you know how it goes in a few months.
> 
> If you poke around that site you can find places to buy it both online and retail.


I have found Petzlife works great. Little or no scraping for heavy tartar buildup.


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## HavaneseSoon

As for the tarter.....How is this product applied? What has to be done?


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## louise

Do you happen to know where to get the spray on colloidal silver? I've looked for something like that without much success,.

Thanks

Louise


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## Sheri

Chris Christensen sells it by the name of "Peace and Kindness." You can get it through their site, or other places, too, like the link listed below.

http://www.showdogstore.com/chris-christensen-peace-and-kindnesss.aspx


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## Sheri

Tom,
Can you tell how this is going? I know it might be too soon, but I'm so anxiously hoping it works that I couldn't wait any longer to check in.


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## Chasza

The 'marine' algae may have tons of iodine as well as salt in it. I would request a full nutritional analysis breakdown, b/c too much iodine can cause problems with the thyroid and if a dog is already on thyroid meds, then this shouldn't be used at all - but still used with much caution in an otherwise healthy dog (depending on levels of salt and iodine). IMO. Just a note, that I have seen cautions raised with using either kelp for teeth cleaning or collidial silver.


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## Tom King

To answer the question, it's unbelieveable. We probably wouldn't believe the difference if we hadn't left one of our dogs off of it for a control, but we can see the difference in one month. We have been using a little less than the minumum suggested.
I was going to wait a while and post some pictures. 

The thyroid issue is interesting but we have never had a thyroid problem and have had all our breeding dogs tested before but will again after using this stuff. We'll be doing blood work for some testing coming up anyway and we'll just add that.

It smells just like algae that grows in salt water aquariums.

It is put on top of the food with a teeny tiny scoop maybe 1/4" diameter and not even round in shape. The $50 bottle is 2 1/2" diameter and 3 1/2" tall. It is ground up fairly fine. We're using less than half a scoop and have hardly put a dent in it for 9 dogs in about a month. We're not using it on Blanchi or Fifth yet since they are both young enough to have perfectly clean teeth anyway.

We've used the Petzlife stuff for brushing teeth but after the dogs get over say 6 or 7 years old the tartar seems like it builds up faster and is harder to get off. This is just topdressing on food. We haven't brushed a tooth since we started.

The colloidial silver was suggested for a completely separate and different application. I had just lost track of what thread a skin issue was talked about on.


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## davetgabby

Hi Tom , I looked into the tartar product myself because my Molly has a little tartar. I forwarded the site to Sabine Contraras and she looked at it. She said that it is high in iodine and if you use commercial dog food ,that too has enough iodine . Therefore she didn't recommend it because she said too much iodine can cause thyroid problems.


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## Tom King

Thanks. I forwarded the concern to the manufacturer. We'll be testing the dogs soon anyway and will get the product tested to see exactly how much iodine is in it. I hope it's not too good to be true because we can see the results.

They sell it for human consumption too and there is a warning for those on thyroid treatment not to use it.


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## davetgabby

yeh Tom it is disappointing I was hoping it would be alright too.


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## Tom King

It still might be.


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## Sheri

Tom, Will you share the information you find? I, too, was hoping this would ba a safe and effective product. It would be great! I will be anxious to hear.

Thanks!


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## Havtahava

Interesting timing on this topic. On Saturday, I was in a seminar with Jean Dodds, DVM all day. Her topics of discussion were thyroid, vaccines and nutrition. When she was on the topic of thyroid, she specifically mentioned that you should not add any kelp to your dog's diet if you feed a commercial product because commerical products already have iodine in them and kelp will give them way too much iodine, which will *suppress thyroid function*. Those who do homecooking and raw (non-commercial) should be fine unless you are already adding iodine in another form. Strangely enough, this was the only specific food supplement that she mentioned to avoid in regard to thyroid function.

I have this PlaqueOff on my shelf and hadn't been using it for a while, but I sure won't be using it now. (If you go to Google and type in "Proden Plaqueoff iodine", without the quotes, you will see that they boast that it is "rich in natural iodine".)

If you have any questions about kelp or iodine in a dog's diet, you can email Jean Dodds, DVM directly through her web site: www.hemopet.com. She is very good at answering emails, when she is back at her office.


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## Jane

Havtahava said:


> Those who do homecooking and raw (non-commercial) should be fine unless you are already adding iodine in another form. Strangely enough, this was the only specific food supplement that she mentioned to avoid in regard to thyroid function.


Thanks for posting this info, Kimberly. When I was doing homecooking, some recipes called for adding iodized salt, specifically for the iodine (not the salt)!


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## juliav

Havtahava said:


> Interesting timing on this topic. On Saturday, I was in a seminar with Jean Dodds, DVM all day. Her topics of discussion were thyroid, vaccines and nutrition.


What were her recommendations on vaccination?


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## Tom King

I received this reply from the manufacturer:

Hello The Iodine content is not harmful to your pet.

PlaqueOff is a herb and from that reason the iodine content may vary. The ingested iodine content is important if you use *pure* iodine, which contains nothing else. In that case 90- 95 percent is absorbed into the blood and transported into the thyroid gland. All national recommendations are based on the asssumption that pure iodine is used. 
However, PlaqueOff contains several other ingredients which bind or counteract iodine. Among them is bromine which enters the thyroid gland faster than iodine. The consequence is that only a small amount of iodine, if any, will reach the gland. The concentrations of iodine and bromine are of the same magnitude in PlaqueOff. Bromine is beeing used as an antidot against iodine poisoning. That´s why the iodine in PlaqueOff cannot harm the thyroid. 

Best wishes
Sune Wikner/Dentist

Roland Fastberg
Swedencare AB
[email protected]
www.plaqueoff.com
Mob +46 70 664 50 73
Fax +46 980 80 990

We have started using Plaque Off with our pack and have had noticeable results in just a month. Concern has been raised about the dogs getting too much iodine and causing thyroid problems. 
Could you please address this.


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## Havtahava

Interesting response, Tom. I am curious to know what Dr. Dodds would say. I'll drop her an email with their response and ask if she wants to test some of mine.


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## Tom King

Fortunately we have Thyroid levels on all our dogs from adding "thyroid" to their complete blood panels. They're due for another round of blood panels in a couple of weeks so we'll get their levels checked again to see if there is any variation.

We're only giving half of the recommended minumum anyway and are keeping the next girl due to be bred out of the group getting it for a control. 

We've had Imme on it for three months and the others on it for about a month so by comparing their pre and post Thyroid levels should be a much better test than anyone's opinion.

The picture shows the amount each is getting per day. It's hard to believe that it's detrimental to their health in that amount, but then it's also pretty hard to believe the difference it makes in their teeth so we'll see.


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## Lilly's mom

Tom do you know if it is FDA approved?

Thanks
Katrina


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## davetgabby

Havtahava said:


> Interesting response, Tom. I am curious to know what Dr. Dodds would say. I'll drop her an email with their response and ask if she wants to test some of mine.


I'll wait for her reply. Thanks for checking Kimberley.


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## Havtahava

Dr. Dodds replied last night. She is great about using e-mail.

She commented that she believes this is a Swedish product (which is verified by Tom's message above) and has not yet been validated by the VOHC (Veterinary Oral Health Council), although it has been listed at least once incorrectly as being VOHC approved. 

She also sent me some literature on iodine & thyroid, which has two studies documented. One study is about puppies and iodine (specifically mentioning kelp, seaweed), showing altered thyroid morphology. It suggests (but does not conclude) that it could be a contributor to the amount of hypothyroidism being seen in young adult dogs. The second study is in regard to humans and how circumstantial evidence has linked iodine with the rising incidence of autoimmune thyroiditis. The conclusions and clinical evidence is in regard to a study done with mice and how the presence of iodine increases a major pathogenic antigen in the induction of autoimmune thyroiditis.

So, although there do not seem to be any conclusive studies in regard to canines, I think I am glad that I forgot about my jar on the shelf.

Anyone want my container of PlaqueOff?


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## davetgabby

thanks Kimberly , I agree , I think I will leave this alone.


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## Sheri

Hmmm, thanks Kimberly. Bummer!

I guess I've got enough worries without adding another one to them, but I sure was looking forward to an effective preventive treatment!

Appreciate your contacting this Dr. Dodds!


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## Tom King

I just received this email today:

Your query has ended up with me to answer - hope this is helpful!

ProDen PlaqueOff typically contains 400microgrammes (0.4mg) Iodine in a scoopful. This may be slightly above the daily requirement for a small animal, but nowhere near a toxic amount of course. Furthermore, minerals such as iodine are absorbed from the diet according to need; excess minerals pass straight through.

We only make the recommendation that animals suffering the uncommon hyperthyroidism avoid PlaqueOff, as a low-iodine diet is often part of the treatment for such an animal. There should be no particular problem in the more common hypothyroidism but veterinary advice should always be followed.

Kind regards

Mike Price
Pharmacist.

When we first started using it on Imme it started working so fast that we decided that we could probably do with giving less and so the dogs who have been getting it now for a little over a month are getting less than half a scoop.

Some years ago a breeder friend of ours had a problem with a couple of pups in one litter and found out after the fact that the bitch had a thyroid problem. We were doing SA 320's then anyway with our dogs as part of a Havanese study so we just had Thyroid added to those to check and also "in case we ever needed it". Looks like it will turn out useful after all. All our dogs are in the middle of the normal range anyway and we have never had a pup with any kind of problem so we feel safe with what we are doing.

Twinkle had to have some teeth pulled when she was 10 in spite of our best efforts so we are trying to avoid this with others and feel it's worth the trial since there is an obvious improvemnent in what we are seeing. If your dogs come from a line with thyroid problems or your breeder just doesn't know it would most likely be a good idea to be safe. I'm not trying to talk anyone in to anything but this is looking pretty promising to us.

At nine years old (I think-or close anyway) Imme's teeth look like a two year olds and we haven't touched them for probably six months.


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## Sheri

Thanks, Tom.
Please keep updating on this as time goes on, would you? I'm going to put it on the backburner for awhile, anyway...I'm really impressed with the results you've gotten!!


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## ama0722

Now I am kind of freaking out cause I have given Isabelle the maltese seameal for a few years for weight gain (vet recommended) and the first ingredient is seaweed meal. Well on the back it is .062ppm and on the website it says 19 varieties of seaweed and kelp is one of them.

When I was googling iodine info....



> In humans, the RDA for iodine is approx 40 to 200 mcg per day


 So would would it be safe for a 10lb dog (Belle is only 5 on a fat day) really need 400 mcg a day? Does anyone know how much iodine our dogs should have a day? Belle is fed raw but I have always put some seameal on her raw too... ugh!


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## Missy

this has me freaking out a bit too...especially since Cash is in the middle of having his thyroid tested. Not the plaque off necessarily but just the fact that commercial food is really scientifically created-- and they eat the same thing everyday-- and then meaning well you add stuff (I am adding a probiotic called comfort zone that has a ton of ingredients and firms up Jaspers stool and also use a the petzlife and put dental fresh in their water...) and you could be kicking everything out of whack! I mean I feed Cash the raw medallions (cooked) but it is still commercial food. 

And what about the jerky I am now making... with the curing salt... could that have whacked out his thyroid? (although Cash's levels are high not low-- which could indicate autoimmune thyroiditis) And my boys are a lot bigger than most of your Havs...

I am really hoping to get the boys on a good kibble and nothing else one day soon.


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## DAJsMom

Tom, 
I'd appreciate it too if you would keep updating on this. As I said before, Dusty really gets plaque buildup. She's getting her teeth cleaned next week. I use Petzlife, but probably not consistently enough to make a difference.


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## Tom King

Missy, It seems like everything we put in them or on them requires a balancing act between risk and reward.


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## Missy

That's a nice way to look at Tom!


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## davetgabby

thanks Tom for your info. I think it's a guessing game and like you said you should consult with a vet before you try anything like this. It is a balancing act.


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## Jane

Amanda, I feel your frustration. This is one of the lesser reasons I gave up homecooking (the main one was runny rears!) I was always worried about the proper supplementation - getting everything just right and not causing some weird imbalance.

I followed Dr. Pitcairn's recipes to the T, but then I noticed my dogs' poops would leave white stains on the patio - possibly too much calcium? It freaked me out.


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## LuvCicero

Tom, are you still using the Plaque off and happy with it. Have you had the test run yet and know of any problems? Cicero is young so I don't have a tarter problem yet but my daughter has a yorkie that does and she wants to use the Plaque off instead of having her put to sleep for teeth cleaning. If you have any more info from test -- or still happy with the product -- would you please post the latest results. Thank You !!


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## Trish

Tom..What do yu use to scrap off tarter on your pup's teeth..even with using chew toys, raw foods and flossies, tarter still seems to be a problem. Brushing does help, but there is a buildup that needs to be removed!!


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## Tom King

Yes, we are still using it. The young dogs don't need it and we are not using it on bitches we are planning on breeding soon or the one who is pregnant but we haven't gotten around to pulling a T4 yet. The University doing the health study (cross breed, not just Havanese) hasn't requested another blood draw yet and we were waiting to have it added to that.

The 9, 10, and 12 year olds teeth are absolutely amazing. The boys teeth required a little rubbing but the tartar just came right off. 

I had intended to post pictures and t4 results after we got them but just haven't done it yet.

Pam used to use a dental tool to scrape the tartar off but it's not needed with this stuff.

We had Thyroid levels done years ago when a breeder friend of ours had trouble with a couple of pups and found after the fact that her bitch had low thyroid. All of ours then tested well in the normal range and we haven't had any reason to have it tested again since then.

I don't believe it's a concern with our dogs but you would need to check with your breeder. No one else breeds our line so there might well be some differences.


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## Sheri

Thanks for the continuing info, Tom. I look forward to hearing about test results once they are done, whenever that is. It sure sounds like a good potential alternative to putting them under for teeth cleaning.


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## Havtahava

Sheri, there are quite a few places that do teeth cleaning without anesthesia. Houndstooth Dental is just one of them: http://www.houndstoothdental.com/ Unfortunately, this particular business is not in Washington yet, but your veterinarian may be able to give you a referral to a holistic dental cleaning. (Sometimes groomers have connections too.)


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## Tom King

I forgot. We are keeping Frolic off of it as a control since she was pregnant when we started it and didn't put her on it at the same time as the other dogs. The difference is remarkable.


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## Sheri

Havtahava said:


> Sheri, there are quite a few places that do teeth cleaning without anesthesia. Houndstooth Dental is just one of them: http://www.houndstoothdental.com/ Unfortunately, this particular business is not in Washington yet, but your veterinarian may be able to give you a referral to a holistic dental cleaning. (Sometimes groomers have connections too.)


Oh, thanks, Kimberly! Hopefully Tucker won't need it for a long time, but I've had that little cloud of apprehension hovering in the back of my mind since I found that the toy breeds apparently all have this tendency.

I'll watch for holistic methods when/if it comes.


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## Jan D

Tom, I have to comment on how beautiful and adorable Juego is! I can see why you decided to keep him. He's spunky!


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## Tom King

Thanks. Pam just recently started doing agility with Posh and he's doing pretty good, but she wanted one to train from the start for agility too. Juego was pretty obviously the one to start with as he is super co-ordinated and athletic. He's smart too. He's never had an accident and has had free run of the house since he was 12 weeks old. Pam taught him down and sit yesterday in one short session while she was demonstrating dog training to a visitor.

Frolic is not our best bitch herself but she and Posh have produced some pretty remarkable puppies.

By the way "Juego" is Spanish for "play". I had wanted to name him el Honcho de Juego since he has always been the instigator of play. Call name was going to be "Boss" but that didn't work out with a pack of ball crazy dogs. It sounded too much like "ball". But Juego stuck. Pronounced oo-ay-go or simply "way-go".


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## LuvCicero

Thank you Tom for posting the information. Jan is right, Juego is a beautiful Hav and I love that stack!!


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## Chasza

:bump2:

I am very interested in this thread, and impressed with the follow-up that Tom has done. I really like that alot!! My non-hav girl is hypo, and I've been afraid to use anything with kelp/seaweed. But, we have to consult a specialist who is extremely knowledgeable and well -known regarding health and diet issues, so I will bring this up at some point for her opinion as well. 

Both my non-havs have so many problems, and soon we need to drive to Atlanta to a vet dentalist to do their teeth. It would be fab for this to be the last time they needed cleaning if I could start using this product and it work for us as well as it has for Tom!! The one thing my guys are really disagreeable about is my putting something other than food into their mouth!

Tom, so to get off the bit of tarter still on the teeth, are you just using a gauze and wiping the teeth off about once a week? My impression is that you aren't using a tooth brush and you aren't having to do much maintence, either. 

And are you still only using about 1/2 the recommended dose added to their food? (which really doesn't make sense to me, to add to the food would mean that it gets consumed first, and it doesn't seem like that would help-- I don't quite understand how it would work, but am impressed that you have had such great results)

Remember to post thyroid results whenever you do the testing! Thanks for sharing all of your results and the researching that you are doing. It is appreciated greatly

Lynn


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## Tom King

Yes, still using 1/2 dose. No tartar to scrape off since we first did it with the boys. We haven't touched a tooth since whenever this thread started. The results are remarkable. We haven't heard back about that test so right now we don't really see any need for us to pull a T3. Sometimes on those studies you hear back and sometimes you don't-grad students move on, funding runs out, or whatever. We are keeping any female in the process of breeding soon or pregnant off of it to be safe.

We were out of it for about a week before the next bottle came and we could see buildup already starting on the older girls.

We've never had any thyroid problem one way or the other in our line. I'm not recommending this to everyone, but if you have a robust line I wouldn't be scared of it.

I'll take pictures soon but we've been busy with puppies lately-having too much fun.
edited again to add: Pam had doctors appointments today so we didn't get pictures yet-impossible to take gum pulled back pics by myself.


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## Chasza

Thank you, Tom. I think that it's smart to leave any female about to breed off of it - just in case. I like that you take precautions such as this since you don't know for sure how it might affect the puppies health. My two rescues have sooooo many serious health issues, so I understand how important excellent health is. 

I visited your site and am totally in love with Juego. Also, love the black head/ white bodies of 2 of your new puppies. Those are looks that I adore! Hmmmm, when it comes time for me to be able to acquire a havanese, then you just might be hearing from me! (gotta get my other two stabalized / figured out and get the yard fenced in first ---so I can have time for some puppy fun!!)

Thank again for keeping us all updated!

Lynn


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## ruthann

Thanks Tom, I ordered today. The local Bechon rescue sells PlaqueOff as a product they use and have had sucess with. Will let you all know in 8 weeks if we are making any progress. I brush, use oral spray cleaner from vet and still have tarter build up. I haven't tried the split raw chicken bones as I'm still afraid of raw bones which so many of the forum members use with sucess. I guess that will be my last resort if the PlaqueOff doesn't work, before the Vet using the last drastic put to sleep and scrap the teeth. Ruth Ann


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## Leslie

:bump::bump:

Any updates on how this is working? Tom? Ruth Ann? Or anyone else who's using/used it?


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## Kathie

I've been using it on Abby's food for about six months now, I think and her teeth are looking great! Before I started using it they were getting pretty yucky. She seems as healthy as ever!


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## davetgabby

I know we discussed this awhile ago and there was some concern . But just for your information, the following is an excerpt from my consultation from Sabine , where I had previously mentioned this product to her. If you decide to try it, I myself would not use it long term. here is what she said....
Here’s a list of the most important ones,(suppliments not to use,) with the ones that give me the most cause for concern
listed at the top.
Kelp/Seaweed and supplement products with high kelp content or significant
amounts of added iodine compounds (e.g. calcium iodate, potassium iodide)
This includes Pro Den Plaque Off
Kelp is very high in the trace mineral iodine, which directly affects the thyroid gland. Most
commercial dry foods already contain levels of iodine 2-4 times (or even more) of what your dog
needs on a daily basis.
As an example, a small to medium sized dog eating a home prepared diet without other
significant sources of iodine only needs about one-half to two-thirds of a teaspoon of kelp powder
per week to meet the daily intake as recommended by the National Research Council in their
most recent publication on the nutrient requirements of dogs and cats.
Supplementing extra on top of what commercial food provides is not only unnecessary, but likely
to do more harm than good in the long run, since prolonged exposure to excess amounts can
lead to depressed thyroid function, or even worse permanent thyroid damage.


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## Leslie

davetgabby said:


> I know we discussed this awhile ago and there was some concern . But just for your information, the following is an excerpt from my consultation from Sabine , where I had previously mentioned this product to her. If you decide to try it, I myself would not use it long term. here is what she said....
> Here's a list of the most important ones,(suppliments not to use,) with the ones that give me the most cause for concern
> listed at the top.
> Kelp/Seaweed and supplement products with high kelp content or significant
> amounts of added iodine compounds (e.g. calcium iodate, potassium iodide)
> This includes Pro Den Plaque Off
> Kelp is very high in the trace mineral iodine, which directly affects the thyroid gland. Most
> commercial dry foods already contain levels of iodine 2-4 times (or even more) of what your dog
> needs on a daily basis.
> As an example, a small to medium sized dog eating a home prepared diet without other
> significant sources of iodine only needs about one-half to two-thirds of a teaspoon of kelp powder
> per week to meet the daily intake as recommended by the National Research Council in their
> most recent publication on the nutrient requirements of dogs and cats.
> Supplementing extra on top of what commercial food provides is not only unnecessary, but likely
> to do more harm than good in the long run, since prolonged exposure to excess amounts can
> lead to depressed thyroid function, or even worse permanent thyroid damage.


What if the dog is on a raw diet, not commercially prepared kibble?


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## davetgabby

not sure, I am not an expert, that's why I ask the professionals.


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## LuvCicero

I use Plaque Off since my vet recommends it and Cicero has pearly white teeth - no tarter or bad breath.


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## Sheri

Dale, I'm glad you post this, that your vet recommends it and it works well for Cicero. Thanks for posting it.


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## Leslie

Dale~ Glad to know another vet recommended it. A vet I know recommends it but, he sells it in his office and I was wondering if he gets a "kick back" for selling it, you know, like they do w/Science Diet. 

Thanks for your post.


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## marjrc

Yeah, I'd be wary about what "vets recommend" just based on the food they sell and push on their customers.... be careful and take that into account.


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## Sheri

Good point, Marj....


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## Tom King

Do a Google search for "canine kelp supplement" and you will find many of them. Must be really scarey stuff. I wonder why they sell so much of it. 

Here are some photos we just took during a commercial during "So You Think You Can Dance"-new lens...

These are untouched teeth for what must be over a year now. Meg is 8 years old and Imme is 9 years old. There is a little food residue from dinner and Imme has some discoloration from aging, but there is zero tartar. Twinkle had some teeth pulled when she was 9 from gum disease in spite of professional cleaning and us brushing them. Since we started using PlaqueOff no one is anywhere close to needing a professional cleaning, much less surgery and that's without even brushing. Imme is the bottom one. What at first looks like tartar in these downsized photos is just the color spots in her gums.

We still don't give it, or any supplements, to pregnant females and the intact males do need their teeth brushed every 3 or 4 (the residue comes right off with only a toothbrush) weeks but all the girls are no worse than these two with zero work on their teeth.

It would be safe to say that I'm a bit unimpressed by the "expert" opinions. I had said earlier in this thread that we would do blood work when the opportunity presented itself, which it hasn't done yet, but none of our dogs show any signs of having any thyroid problems. In fact, their coats look better than ever.


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## LuvCicero

I feel lucky that my vet doesn't sell foods and only has a very few things....leashes, shampoo, toothbrushes. There is a pet store next door that sells all the raw and top rated foods - which she recommends and shops at also. She told me not to use the "tiny" scoop that is with the Plaque Off....just to use a pinch with finger and thumb. She thinks it is more dangerous to put your pet to sleep to clean teeth - and that the Plaque Off is the safer way. I pray she is right since his teeth look so good.


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## Tom King

Yeah, it must not take much since we are still only using a half scoop once a day. I think having good teeth has to be beneficial to good health and we really hated it for Twinkle to have to have teeth pulled.


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## Leslie

Thanks for the update and pix, Tom. Those are pretty impressive looking teeth considering their ages. :brushteeth:


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## Sheri

Dale and Tom, how do you apply it?


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## Tom King

It gets sprinkled on their food once a day. See the scoop size in one of my earlier posts in this thread. We use half a scoop on the dogs' food who are over 2 years old.


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## Carefulove

I just ordered this for Bumi. I can see the tartar starting to build on his teeth.


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## kelrobin

Tom, I bought this about six months ago for Jackson. He is only two and already had bad build-up on his teeth. I have been giving it to him every day but the plaque was not coming off. I finally had his teeth cleaned because I felt like he needed to be using it with perfectly clean teeth to see if it would work. My vet was familiar with kelp products in general and is curious to see if it will keep the plaque off. I'll post again in about six months to tell if it's working. It sure was an ordeal (and expensive!) to get his teeth cleaned, but the good thing was that I had the bloodwork done and his panels were all great.


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## marjrc

Good news about Jackson blood panels. I, too, worry about a teeth cleaning, having the dog put under. I'd be disappointed if using the product for 6 months didn't improve things at all! I thought it was a solution, not just a preventative product...


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## Tom King

We have only had two dogs have "professional" cleaning. Twinkle and Trip years ago and they both developed gum disease soon afterward. We didn't want to have it done again either. 

We had cleaned the teeth ourselves after that, but it got to the point that the older ones, including the ones whose teeth are pictured here, had some tartar buildup that was hard to get off. Their teeth have not even been brushed since soon after starting the PlaqueOff.

I can see where it would be possible that if the layer was thick and hard enough to start with, that this stuff would not get all the way through it.


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## Carefulove

Tom King said:


> We have only had two dogs have "professional" cleaning. Twinkle and Trip years ago and they both developed gum disease soon afterward. We didn't want to have it done again either...


Tom, Bumi is due to get neuter in about a month or two and the Vet mentioned that they could clean his teeth during the procedure. I just started the PlaqueOff last week since he's getting a little build off and it should show progress in a few weeks. My question is, is there a relationship btwn getting their teeth cleaned professionally and later on developing gum disease? I know your two got it, but have you heard of any other dogs having the same problem?

I am not inclined to clean Bumi's teeth Professionally yet, but was just wondering.
And thanks for recommending P.Off! eace:


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## Chasza

My first thought is that this would require him being under anesthesia longer and that would be something to really think about. I think that I have read of vets not wanting to do multiple procedures just because of the time extentions.


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## marjrc

That's what I was told too, Lynn, esp. with smaller dogs.


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## Tom King

Sorry, I had not seen the question in post #85 when it was posted. I'm sure that ordinarily, having the teeth professionally cleaned is not something that you would worry about causing further damage.

Twinkle and Trip had their teeth cleaned at the same time. I think they were around 8 years old at the time. Soon after the cleaning, they both developed infections of their gums and ended up having some teeth pulled. We are not sure if the instruments were not clean, if some inexperienced tech or person, did the work.......we just don't know, but we did feel like the procedure did more damage to them than it did good. We have since stopped using this particular vet for various reasons.

I think it was just bad luck on their part. They are both 13 now and doing just fine in spite of their missing teeth, but it made us feel awful for them, and we will do everything we can to prevent this happening again.


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## Sheri

Nope... unless you go to their site and see if they can refer you to someone close. That is what I did--but I still had to pay postage because there was no one close.


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## DanielBMe

Just curious, do you guys not brush your dog's teeth? I brush my guys teeth twice a week on top of raw meaty bones to gnaw on. Their teeth are pearly white...actually whiter than mine, sad to say...


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## Sheri

I'd love to have Tucker chew on raw bones, but haven't come up with a clean way to do that, with fresh bones that I can afford to get frequently enough. So, I brush his teeth when I bath him- about every 2 weeks, which isn't often enough, I know. But, he needs more.


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## kelrobin

I do not feel like I get Jackson's teeth clean when I brush even after his pro. cleaning. I am trying to do it more often, plus using the Plaqueoff, Pearly Whites, C.E.T chews, flossies, hard dry biscuits . . . you name it, I do it! My labs had beautiful teeth and I never brushed them. They ate mostly dry kibble and did love bones. 

My vet said someone just came in and did a demo on their dog using an electric Braun toothbrush ($20 - Bed Bath and Beyond). We are easing into using it as I can imagine the whirring will freak Jackson out, but I think it will do much better than me trying to scrub. It seems like a great idea if it works. I think he is a dog who has teeth that just get dirty easily.


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## marjrc

Kathy, Ricky has brown teeth.  It upsets me, but no Daniel, I haven't been brushing my guys' teeth. I have been relying on chewing raw meaty bones, but then I've been very inconsistent with that too! I also use Petzlife oral gel maybe 2x/week. I am at the point where I'm going to have to see someone who can safely and slowly pick at Ricky's teeth. I don't want to put him under for a dental cleaning, but the tartar isn't helping with his possible liver issues. 

Homemade cooked or raw and high quality canned foods are actually better for keeping teeth clean than kibble. Think of kibble as Raisin Bran or granola bars. It sticks and never cleans teeth as the marketing tells you. They never make it to the gum line when the dog is eating it to do any good at all.


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## DanielBMe

I usually bruch my guys teeth just before they pass out for the night. That way the paste works on their teeth overnight. It's not just the brushing action that helps. I use either the peanut butter or beef flavour. When it's time to brush their teeth, I just say "treat", and let them smell the toothpaste. They love the flavour so it helps.


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## Cyndy

The Pro-Den Plaque Off really works! Coconut will not let me brush his teeth. I have been using this stuff for the last year, and it works! His teeth are white and he has no bad breath - he is 4 and the vet says his teeth are fine, no need for professional cleaning yet.
Try it, you'll like it!!


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## irnfit

Well, I just got back from the vet (Kodi got his rabies shot). The vet said Kodi needed dental cleaning. When I asked how much, he said about $400-$500. I am ordering the Plaque Off today!


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## ls-indy

I ordered it last week. It shipped, but hasn't arrived yet. I have my fingers crossed!


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Jane said:


> Amanda, I feel your frustration. This is one of the lesser reasons I gave up homecooking (the main one was runny rears!) I was always worried about the proper supplementation - getting everything just right and not causing some weird imbalance.
> 
> I followed Dr. Pitcairn's recipes to the T, but then I noticed my dogs' poops would leave white stains on the patio - possibly too much calcium? It freaked me out.


Did you ever find out about the calcium? Very interesting.


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## judith

i found alot of shop's that sell plaque-off on their site. just bought some and i hope it works as the vet says it is time to clean coco's teeth. i will keep you posted. 
judy


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## irnfit

:bump:
Just wanted to give a report. I've been using the Plaque Off for about 2 mos for Kodi and Shelby, as well as my DD two dogs. While I haven't seen the plaque totally gone, probably because I don't brush as much as I should, there is a huge improvement. Also, Shelby and one of my DD dogs had doggie breath, which is now gone. 

I'm using it for the cats now. I have two Maine ***** and they are known to have bad teeth. Hope this helps them, too.

PS - I made a promise to them that I will brush their teeth more often.


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## ls-indy

I started using Plaque-Off about two months ago as well. Beau (1 yr) had no plaque on his teeth. He still doesn't and I think his teeth look whiter. Daisy (2 yr) had some plaque beginning to form on her back teeth. It is DEFINITELY decreasing. We continue to brush - but there is still some plaque. I don't know if she will sit still for my picking at her teeth - so I think I'll continue with Plaque-Off and brushing for awhile to see if her teeth clear further before resulting to scraping!


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## Sheri

A couple months ago my vet told me that Tucker was going to soon need his teeth cleaned. I already feed Raw, and then I started the Plaque-Off, and within 4-6 weeks his tartar was so softened that nearly all the rest has come off with brushing. And, I use a lot less than the bottle said to use. I don't want to put my boy under; so glad this has worked so well.


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## Cyndy

*Coconut*

Well, the plaque off has worked great, but now it is time for Coconut to go ahead and have a professional clean. He is scheduled for next Monday; please pray for him. I will continue with the plaque off and surely he will not need another cleaning for a very long time.

So glad to hear it is working for you all as well, I just knew it would!


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## marjrc

Well that is great news. Thank you for the update! I am very tempted. I'm not sure if this was asked already... would it be risky to give this to Ricky, who is now only FINALLY getting acceptable 'high' ALT levels (Liver enzymes)? 
He had a toxic reaction to vaccines in fall of 2007 and it's taken this long. I understand the effect plaque can have on the dogs' health and he has quite a bit, in spite of using Petzlife Oral gel. It's improved some, but not enough to my satisfaction and I really, really do NOT want him put under for a cleaning!


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## Cyndy

It is all natural, just a seaweed, to my understanding, so I think it is perfectly safe. If you have concerns, the manufacturer should be able to let you know for sure. Good Luck!


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## Sheri

Marj, I held off just because of the caution about using it if the dog has thyroid problems. But, when it came down to probably needing to put Tucker under, I decided to try this since he has no thyroid issues; it seemed the lesser of two evils.

I know what a big scare you had with Ricky after the vaccines...Tucker is also very sensitive to vaccines and I thought I'd lose him a couple of times. (I'm not going to let the vet give him any more, except for the rabies, possibly, if absolutely required...then I'd watch him like a hawk and give him pre-meds to hopefully help.) He's had no issues with this Plaque-Off. (Fingers crossed.) After the first couple of weeks, when I could start to tell it might be working, I cut the amount down by half. Now I don't use it all the time, only when I see a bit of build up starting.

I hope it is safe. Surely it is safer than putting them under, anyway?


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## davetgabby

marjrc said:


> Well that is great news. Thank you for the update! I am very tempted. I'm not sure if this was asked already... would it be risky to give this to Ricky, who is now only FINALLY getting acceptable 'high' ALT levels (Liver enzymes)?
> He had a toxic reaction to vaccines in fall of 2007 and it's taken this long. I understand the effect plaque can have on the dogs' health and he has quite a bit, in spite of using Petzlife Oral gel. It's improved some, but not enough to my satisfaction and I really, really do NOT want him put under for a cleaning!


Marj, I've posted this before. Here is what Sabine says ... I also believe it is not recommended by Jean Dodds.

Here's a list of the most important ones, with the ones that give me the most cause for concern
listed at the top.
Kelp/Seaweed and supplement products with high kelp content or significant
amounts of added iodine compounds (e.g. calcium iodate, potassium iodide)
This includes Pro Den Plaque Off
Kelp is very high in the trace mineral iodine, which directly affects the thyroid gland. Most
commercial dry foods already contain levels of iodine 2-4 times (or even more) of what your dog
needs on a daily basis.
As an example, a small to medium sized dog eating a home prepared diet without other
significant sources of iodine only needs about one-half to two-thirds of a teaspoon of kelp powder
per week to meet the daily intake as recommended by the National Research Council in their
most recent publication on the nutrient requirements of dogs and cats.
Supplementing extra on top of what commercial food provides is not only unnecessary, but likely
to do more harm than good in the long run, since prolonged exposure to excess amounts can
lead to depressed thyroid function, or even worse permanent thyroid damage.


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## davetgabby

Cyndy said:


> It is all natural, just a seaweed, to my understanding, so I think it is perfectly safe. If you have concerns, the manufacturer should be able to let you know for sure. Good Luck!


No offence Cyndy, but arsenic is also a natural substance.


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## luv3havs

Well, I was just about to use it but now I have to think some more.

Doesn't Tom King use it?I don't think he'd use anything harmful.


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## LuvCicero

Did someone say - finally an answer to clean teeth? Well, I get a pinch of Plaque Off sprinkled on my home cooked food each evening. See my pearly white teeth?
View attachment 31680


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## whitBmom

How much is this Plaque off? Is it only available in the USA?


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## luv3havs

Cicero, your teeth look great!! Does your mom brush them also and scrape off the tartar, or is the Placque-off enough to keep those pearly whites, so beautiful???

I don't think Chico, Cali and Finnegan would enjoy their mom scraping their teeth so I hope the Placque off does the job!


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## Sheri

I had to order it, and I think it is actually from Europe. Let me go look... it is distributed from Sweden and California. I went on-line to find the closest place to order it from.


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## Eva

I'd love to try it too.
Todd's never had much of a plaque problem but at two years old I know that the time for a teeth cleaning is fast approaching and I'm not looking forward to having to put him under for it


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## Kathie

Do a google search for Plaque Off and you should find plenty of sites that carry it.

I have been giving it to Abby for over a year now and her teeth have really improved.


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## Sheri

whitBmom said:


> How much is this Plaque off? Is it only available in the USA?


Oh, my little bottle of 60g cost $23 plus shipping. It would last for years, except it is to be used for only one year! Ha!


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## Eva

Sheri said:


> Oh, my little bottle of 60g cost $23 plus shipping. It would last for years, except it is to be used for only one year! Ha!


I found it on entirelypets.com 60g on sale for 16.99. I was getting ready to place an order so perfect timing


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## krandall

Is there an advantage to this over Petzlife? Do they work similarly?


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## Sheri

Karen, I don't understand just how it works, but it is different that Petzlife. It is much more effective, in my opinion, but, you do have to weigh in the thyroid/iodine issue, there is conflicting information on that. I only used it because I preferred that to putting Tucker under anesthesia just to clean his teeth. As I mentioned earlier, I only used it for about 4-6 weeks, then stopped it. Now I'm only using it sporadically, (not very often,) and at much smaller doses than the bottle says to use. With brushing, his teeth look really good.


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## LuvCicero

Thanks Nan! No, I do not brush or scrape - but I probably should to get him use to when he may need it. He will be 3 in Dec and his teeth look so clean now. I think Plaque Off is working well for him.

Helen, I can't remember how much it cost, but I can tell you that the small bottle will last a long time. It only takes a pinch to sprinkle on like you,re using salt. The scoop is tiny but I use my fingers to just get a pinch. My vet only sales a couple of products that she uses on her own dogs and she recommended the Plaque Off and a weekly brushing, but I haven't seen the need to brush! Cicero also chews on a moo stick for a while each day that I think might help too. I miss days using the Plaque Off, but I do think it has worked to keep his teeth white.


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## davetgabby

To answer the claims that Tom recieved from this company (back on earlier pages of this thread) I asked Sabine to comment on what they were saying about Tom's concerns. Sabines answer is in line with Kimberly's same question to Dr. Jean Dodds. Here is Sabines reply.

Sorry, hogwash! 

Iodine is iodine, kelp is high in iodine, and Plaque-Off is kelp. It goes back exactly to what Dr. Dodds said.

Dogs who eat common commercial diets (especially dry food) often already get 3, 4 5 times and more the amount of 

iodine than the recommended daily allowance, and Plaque-Off adds to that. 
Just as an example, per NRC 2006 guidelines the *weekly* recommended intake of iodine for a 10 pound dog is 645 

mcg.

Let's say this dog eats Orijen Adult and needs 3 1/2 cups per week (1/2 cup per day) to maintain a good weight. 

This amount of dry food already supplies 2,012.5 mcg of iodine, or over 300%.

If you add even just 1/2 scoop of Plaque Off daily to that (200 mcg * 7 = 1,400 mcg), you end up at 3,412.5 mcg, or 

almost 530%.

The quote "minerals such as iodine are absorbed from the diet according to need; excess minerals pass straight through" 

claim is totally ignorant, since if that really were the case, we wouldn't have various toxicities from excess 

levels, including what Dr. Dodds is referring to (she's my hero by the way, a wonderful vet and a very warm person 

with a huge heart).

Sabine


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## marjrc

I knew you, or someone, had posted something about the thyroid, Dave. Thank you for the reminder as I had forgotten! You know, I will be attending Dr. Dodd's thyroid seminar in San Mateo next Wed and I'm going to ask her about this. Great timing - and I can't wait to actually meet her. 

I know the plaque on Ricky's teeth isn't the best for his overall health, but I really don't want to put him under either. They say that often when there is a dental cleaning, so much of the loosened plaque gets into the dog's system and even THAT can be toxic to a liver-impaired dog. Well, Ricky doesn't have a "liver condition", but you know.... Like you said Sheri, it might be the lesser of the two evils. I will see what Dr. Dodd has to say about it next week. 

Thank you, Dave for posting Sabine's opinion!


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## davetgabby

How lucky for you. I know Kimberly found her seminar very interesting. You lucky dog. To be honest Marj, if his teeth are that bad, I would break down and get them cleaned. Molly survived it quite fine. It is much more worrry if he gets gum disease and other problems. I wouldn't look to delay. Fill us in after the seminar. You lucky dog.


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## Tom King

I contacted the company again and invited them to join these forums.

They say that each scoop contains 131.1 microgrammes of iodine.

I'm adding, By all means if you have a dog or cat who is hyperthyroid, don't use any extra iodine.

I've looked online for cases with health problems or ill effects from Plaqueoff, and can't found one. Problems are easy to find for any of the flea and tick treatments, or vacines that are used.

All our dogs are still on it. We haven't had to brush a tooth yet, and all are still healthy-never had a single thyroid issue in 5 generations.

If your dog is from a line with known hyperthyroidism, don't use it. 

This coming from a family who does Titers instead of vacines after the first one, and seldom if ever, uses topical flea and tick stuff. 

One of two of our puppies, out of close to 200 now over 12 years, who has been lost, was due to inattention under anesthesia. We don't put dogs under to do hip evaluations- even though we get the best xrays we can, we won't put them under just to get a better score, so we don't want to put one under for teeth cleaning.

How many cases have there been of hyperthyroidism caused by PlaqueOff? Until that question can be answered, the rest is just speculation.

We offer our 13 as a case study if anyone wants to bother.

Personally, I have heard of one case of low thyroid in Havanese, but never a case of hyperthyroidism. I'm not saying there aren't any. I've just have never heard of them.

Why exactly should I be scared to use this product? Facts please, not speculation. Perhaps the experts quoted here would be kind enough to come here and answer some simple questions.


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## krandall

Well, I I'm going to try it... Just ordered it. If Tom's dogs have been doing well on it for a long while, and, genetically speaking, Kodi is one of Tom's dogs, then I think I'ts worth giving it a try. I have been brushing his teeth, but it's hard to do a good job with a less than willing victim.<g> I've also been using Petzlife, but I feel bad every time I do, because he clearly hates it so much. If he'll just eat the Plaque-off in his food, it would be great!

He's young and doesn't have any tartar build-up yet, and I'd rather keep it that way!

Karen


----------



## SMARTY

marjrc said:


> I knew you, or someone, had posted something about the thyroid, Dave. Thank you for the reminder as I had forgotten! You know, I will be attending Dr. Dodd's thyroid seminar in San Mateo next Wed and *I'm going to ask her about this*. Great timing - and I can't wait to actually meet her. )


Please let us know what Dr. Dodd's responses are to the product. Smarty at 3 is beginning to show some plaque and I am like Tom, my dogs are not going to be put under to just have their teeth cleaned.


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## irnfit

Dave, you mention iodine in commercial dry dog food. Can you tell me what it would be listed as? Will it list it as iodine, or a mineral? I looked on my bag of dog food and couldn't find it listed. Thanks.


----------



## Rita Nelson

krandall said:


> Well, I I'm going to try it... Just ordered it. If Tom's dogs have been doing well on it for a long while, and, genetically speaking, Kodi is one of Tom's dogs, then I think I'ts worth giving it a try. I have been brushing his teeth, but it's hard to do a good job with a less than willing victim.<g> I've also been using Petzlife, but I feel bad every time I do, because he clearly hates it so much. If he'll just eat the Plaque-off in his food, it would be great!
> 
> He's young and doesn't have any tartar build-up yet, and I'd rather keep it that way!
> 
> Karen


Karen, I've been giving Plaque-off to Tucker for 2 - 3 mos. He didn't have any tartar build-up and I wanted to keep it that way. I don' know Tom King, but trusted his experience with Plaque-off. Just reading his posts on the forum, I could tell his Havs mean the world to him and Pam. Tucker's teeth seem to glow they're so white. Last time the vet saw him, he said Tucker's teeth look great. I also quit brushing. Tucker would tolerate it, but that's about all.


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## LuvCicero

With 131.1 mcg per scoop - than means 1/2 a scoop is around 65 so a weeks worth would be 455mcg. A 1/2 scoop is for a dog up to 25 lbs. I poured a 1/2 scoop in my hand and pinched up an amount with my finger and thumb and still had 1/2 of that amount in my hand so I'm giving 1/4 scoop sprinkled on Cicero's food since he weighs 11 lbs. I'm now asking myself why a food like Orijen would have 2,012 mcg of iodine in a weeks worth of food? I had rather him get 500 mcg a week.

They have been selling this stuff in Sweden since 2001 for people in pill form. It states on their site that it has been approved in the US by the Food & Drug Administration. You may be able to find it in a Health Food Store or even at a dentist office. Cicero is a loved family member and I would never do anything that I thought could harm him....like putting him under to clean his teeth. For small dogs that is scary for me. As long as his vet checks and bloodwork are good, I will continue to use it to keep his teeth healthy.


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## krandall

A quick Google search gave me several sites that sold it on line; some with free shipping if you ordered the larger sized container.


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## marjrc

Well, this is all very interesting! Thank you all for your input and sharing your experiences.


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## davetgabby

Sorry , I've been on holidays for a week. To quote Kimberly from way back in Feb. O9. ... "Interesting timing on this topic. On Saturday, I was in a seminar with Jean Dodds, DVM all day. Her topics of discussion were thyroid, vaccines and nutrition. When she was on the topic of thyroid, she specifically mentioned that you should not add any kelp to your dog's diet if you feed a commercial product because commerical products already have iodine in them and kelp will give them way too much iodine, which will suppress thyroid function. Those who do homecooking and raw (non-commercial) should be fine unless you are already adding iodine in another form. Strangely enough, this was the only specific food supplement that she mentioned to avoid in regard to thyroid function.". 

I asked Sabine to comment on the latest post by Tom. Here is her reply...

First and foremost: I'm talking about all kinds of kelp products here, not just singling out Plaque-Off specifically.

I also wonder, first the iodine content is 400 mcg per scoop, now 131.1? That's a significant difference - which is correct?

In a time where most people don't even understand yet what kind of damage commercial food can do, how would they even know what issues may crop up from supplements (which are regulated even less than commercial pet food by the way)? This is totally irrelevant. What would be relevant for example is the manufacturer of this product performing a long-term clinical trial, not putting the burden of proof on consumers. "Prove that we're wrong" is not a good business model.

Additionally, dental health is very much linked to genetics. Some dogs have clean teeth all their lives, no matter if they eat kibble or not, others need significant help even though they eat a diet containing plenty of raw meaty bones. In the first group, giving Plaque Off wouldn't make any difference at all in terms of how clean teeth stay.

My recommendation stands - if someone feeds commercial food in significant amounts, I wouldn't add even more iodine to that, no matter the source. If someone feeds homemade food, I wouldn't be opposed to the use of the product, as long as it doesn't push the total iodine content sky high.

Sabine

I will take the advice of Dr. Jean Dodds (the world's formost thyroid expert). and that of Sabine who is also very well educated when it comes to dog health. I would be very leary of the stuff that comes from these people. They can't even get their numbers right ,let alone be experts in thyroid issues.


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## Tom King

The question of how many Havanese that she had seen that were hyperthyroid was not answered.

Yes, anything we put in them or on them has some risk/reward factor. So far we haven't heard a risk factor that is a direct problem for our breed.

Does anyone reading this know of a Havanese that is or has ever been hyperthyroid?


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## davetgabby

Tom King said:


> The question of how many Havanese that she had seen that were hyperthyroid was not answered.
> 
> Yes, anything we put in them or on them has some risk/reward factor. So far we haven't heard a risk factor that is a direct problem for our breed.
> 
> Does anyone reading this know of a Havanese that is or has ever been hyperthyroid?


Tom you've missed the point. Excess iodine suppresses thyroid function. If you want to question the world 's authority on this, fine.


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## Tom King

Still looking for clinical trials and such. So far the only ones I've found are on the manufacturers website, so they are just worth what they are worth.

The only one with a date is 2004.

http://www.plaqueoff.com/proden_plaqueoff_animal/clinical_trials.htm

Still looking. So far I haven't seen any concrete reason that we should stop using it.

I did find that it has only been sold in Sweden since 2001.


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## davetgabby

Tom King said:


> Still looking for clinical trials and such. So far the only ones I've found are on the manufacturers website, so they are just worth what they are worth.
> 
> The only one with a date is 2004.
> 
> http://www.plaqueoff.com/proden_plaqueoff_animal/clinical_trials.htm
> 
> Still looking. So far I haven't seen any concrete reason that we should stop using it.


If Dr. Jean Dodds evidence isn't good enough for you , nothing is.


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## Tom King

I haven't seen any evidence. Just an opinion. I'm willing to be convinced to stop using it, or that even I should stop using it, but it will take evidence and not an opinion.

This place has reviews going back several years. It has the only complaints I've seen, but I haven't spent a lot of time looking.

http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/revie...59006-Triple-Pet-Plaque-Off-Fresh-Breath.html

One person had a problem with mold in the bottle. Another had a cat that it didn't work on one side, and another was dissappointed that it hadn't worked in the first two weeks.


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## Evye's Mom

My dogs are on a homemade diet and part of their supplement regimen includes kelp....a miniscule amount. So miniscule that I would very leary to add more than what they are currently taking. Not arguing any point. I too am looking for a plaque preventative aside from brushing. I do brush but I know it cannot be that effective with my very uncooperative subjects. I will be anxious to hear any feedback Marj obtains from Dr. Dodd's seminar.


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## davetgabby

Evye's Mom said:


> My dogs are on a homemade diet and part of their supplement regimen includes kelp....a miniscule amount. So miniscule that I would very leary to add more than what they are currently taking. Not arguing any point. I too am looking for a plaque preventative aside from brushing. I do brush but I know it cannot be that effective with my very uncooperative subjects. I will be anxious to hear any feedback Marj obtains from Dr. Dodd's seminar.


I hear you Sharlene, when Sabine did your consultation ,she knew that some iodine is important, she also knew that you weren't using commercial food. Sometimes we humans want a quick easy fix to everything we do. And unfortunately ,it's not always available, and when it is , it comes with risks.


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## Evye's Mom

To define meniscule, I am referring to 350 mg weekly for a 10-pound dog, 375 mg weekly for a 12-pound dog and 450 mg weekly for a puppy who has not reached full maturity. This is their weekly dietary needs and assuming I do not give them commercial treats. (Ain't going there:redface.


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## davetgabby

yep, forget the commercial treats. Looks good on them.


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## ama0722

I know on the maltese forum they talked about this as well because I was giving Belle a supplement (not for dental) at the time and it had kelp in it and I quit.

I don't know individual cases of thyriod in havanese nor case studies but they happen. If you look on OFFA for our breed, it appears we do have a thyroid problem. We our the 17th rank breed for thryroid issues. I know it isn't a case study and many things come into play but I tend to think the dogs that are health tested are breeding dogs from consciousness breeders. Looking at those numbers 1/5 Havanese has a thyroid issue.

Breed Rank Number of Evaluations Percent Normal Percent Autoimmune Thyroiditis Percent Idiopathic Hypothyroidism Percent Equivocal

HAVANESE 17 283 79.2 8.1 0.0 12.7

Sorry it doesn't paste in well:
http://offa.org/thystatbreed.html


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## marjrc

Dr. Jean Dodds' seminar was pretty much the same as what Kimberly attended earlier in the year. She covered vaccinations, nutrition and the thyroid. She is a wonderful, humorous speaker and encouraged questions from the audience. I forgot to ask about Plaque Off during the seminar, but saw her afterward. She rolled her eyes and said it was not a good idea to add more iodine to a dog's diet. They get ample from a good quality food.

No, she didn't mention studies nor specific cases, but why risk it? I trust this expert and believe her to know what is best for almost all cats and dogs, as much as one person can. She is an encyclopedia of knowledge, stats, testing, case studies and has many, many years of veterinary experience. She sees many cases of hypothyroidism in her field, that can be the cause of many subtle symptoms and behaviors. Before there are real signs in blood test results, dogs almost always have symptoms that are dismissed. It is fascinating how many could be helped if only more in-depth thyroid testing was done, according to her. I know that for me, it's been a roller coaster ride trying to get my own thyroid levels just right, so it can be a bloody nuisance!

She highly recommends this product: http://healthymouth.com/dogs/dogs# . She has no vested interest in this company, but was part of the testing of it and discovered it to be very safe and efficient and the only natural product that she'd ever use. The company is working on a gel product that should be released in a few months.

So ... hope this helps!


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## davetgabby

Thanks Marj, you are a wealth of info as well. Glad you enjoyed her.


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## Havtahava

marjrc said:


> Dr. Jean Dodds' seminar was pretty much the same as what Kimberly attended earlier in the year. She covered vaccinations, nutrition and the thyroid...
> 
> No, she didn't mention studies nor specific cases, but why risk it? I trust this expert and believe her to know what is best for almost all cats and dogs, as much as one person can. *She is an encyclopedia of knowledge, stats, testing, case studies and has many, many years of veterinary experience.* She sees many cases of hypothyroidism in her field, that can be the cause of many subtle symptoms and behaviors. Before there are real signs in blood test results, dogs almost always have symptoms that are dismissed. It is fascinating how many could be helped if only more in-depth thyroid testing was done, according to her. I know that for me, it's been a roller coaster ride trying to get my own thyroid levels just right, so it can be a bloody nuisance!


Emphasis mine.

The thing I most appreciate about information from Dr. Dodds is that she is a *scientist*. She does not operate on hype nor emotion nor sales of a product. She researches and shares information based on what she has learned for the benefit of having healthy dogs. She also cares about her reputation and does not put out information just for the sake of influencing others, but for the purpose of _educating and helping_.


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## Evye's Mom

Thanks Marj and Kimberly.


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## marjrc

Exactly, Kimberly. She never said 'it might be'. She shared facts. Anything she offered as advice or whatever she told about a certain product, company or lab, she would say "This isn't gossip or something that's not already out there" so you know you can share what you have learned w/o looking like a fool down the road. I so appreciate that.


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## Kathie

With all these questions about too much iodine I started to get worried about giving Abby the Plaque Off even though it is working so well. So, I emailed Blue Buffalo (what I feed her) and asked them just how much iodine is in their dried kelp per cup of dog food. I'm anxious to see if they will actually answer me! If they do, I will post it.


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## LuvCicero

Kathie, I will be waiting to see what they say also. The Plaque Off is helping to keep Cicero's teeth looking good also and I'm going to talk to my vet about it again. The thing that makes me feel better is that I do cook for Cicero and know what he is getting -- but don't want to do anything that would hurt my 'kid'.


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## ShirleyH

*Question*

Thanks, Tom. Our breeder told us about this product and I wonder if anyone has checked with their vet on the safety of the product. If it's safe and works, of course, it knocks the heck out of dental procedures for the dogs.

Keeper's Mom (Shirley H)


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## Havtahava

Shirley, read up above at Marj's posts.


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## Tom King

Checking back in.

Risk/reward needs to be weighed by each gardian of any animal, so you have to use your own head. Some of the comments on this thread sound like some folks believe that iodine is a terrible thing to ingest. Actually, it's necessary for us mammals, but without getting into that, some is required. Of course none of us wants to make Lab Rats out of our dogs.

We will always try less of something to see how it works. For instance, we now only give puppies vaccines at 9 and 16 weeks, and leave out some that most vets normally want to give. So far, Titers 7 years later show that all our dogs who have received vaccines on that schedule are still protected.

Now back to the iodine issue. Notice somewhere earlier in this thread I showed how much we give each dog once a day. It's less than 1/3 scoop. I found two amounts of iodine contained in each scoop online. One was the 131.1 microgram and another was .12 mg (or 120 mcirogram). I have no idea where the amount quoted as more than a factor of three greater came from, and so no evidence that it is a reliable figure. Judging by the amount that I showed earlier in this thread I'm guessing a conservatively high amount of 50 micrograms-not anywhere close to Lab Rat quantity.

Breed issues with Thyroid: Our breed is not listed as one of the breeds that has high numbers of thyroid problems, nor are any of the breeds that we share chromosomes with. I knew one person feeding raw who had a female with low thyroid, but when she was put on a commercial diet, she straightened out. That's my total knowledge of thyroid problems in Havanese. 

Our breed is relatively long lived compared to any of the breeds that are listed with problem percentage numbers with Thyroid issues. Our two oldest are close to 14 and still in remarkable health, except for the teeth lost due to periodontal disease either in spite of, or because of teeth cleanings by a vet under anesthesia. Having been on PlaqueOff for maybe a couple of years now, none of our dogs show any signs of excess plaque, much less periodontal disease. Dogs whose life expectancy is less than 10 years can get by better than our dogs, who should live a lot longer, without teeth cleaning. Our line is based on our Foundation Bitch Twinkle, who is linebred on two individuals that lived to be 17.

The statement quoted that said that if you feed all commercial food, then you need to watch iodine content was good information. I don't know anyone that feeds Orijen, but since it was the one quoted with such a high amount, I would guess that it's probably at the top of the list. Such a list would be good to have available to anyone concerned about iodine intake, but I wasn't able to find it. We do feed some commercial food, but it's not more than 50% and we switch around. We switch because once we were feeding the best, organic food we could find, and happened to have our dogs in a Vitamin D study-our dogs were found to be low in Vitamin D.

Any Google search on thyroid health shows scientific proof that too little iodine, rather than too much causes all sorts of health problems at a much greater rate than too much. That's why we have iodized salt, although that's another story. Some go on to tell how excess is passed through the body including a study in canines, so that point was not exactly hogwash.

Of course, once again we don't want to be at Lab Rat levels, but the balance of our dogs having clean teeth with not even any need of brushing, 5 generations with something like 200 offspring with no health issues that match any of the symptoms of Thyroid problems, expected longevity, etc., etc., versus any extra iodine we are feeding, is a no brainer. It might be true that some dogs are more prone to periodontal disease than others, and I can say for sure that ours will get it regardless of our best efforts without this supplement. I didn't take before pictures of Imme and Meg, but I sure don't plan on taking them off the supplement so I can take pictures of plaque.

I also said somewhere earlier in this thread that if your dog was from a line without robust health that you should weigh the evidence. This stuff has shown in clinical studies, as well as our own, that it does keep teeth cleaner, and it's not because it's simply kelp, or has iodine in it. The amount needed is WAY less than any of the kelp supplements sold as simply diet supplements-which we wouldn't touch.

Risk/reward. We'll keep the clean teeth, fresh breath, lack of periodontal disease, and watch for any signs of a Thyroid problem.

We don't take any of this stuff lightly, but don't blindly follow anyone. I'm not recommending that anyone use this product, but do recommend that you look at the big picture. We are very pleased and will continue.


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## ls-indy

You MAY be able to find out the amount of iodine in your dog food at http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog-food-index-a.html Not all of the foods include the amount of iodine - but I've found several that do. For instance, Naturapet Innova EVO Red Meat (Small bites) lists: Iodine 2.8 mg/kg in its nutritional analysis. Hope this helps!


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## marjrc

Tom, I appreciate your post, thank you! I agree that you wouldn't put your dogs in harm's way and I also agree that periodontal disease, plaque and tartar are known for making dogs sick so it is wise to weight the risk/reward factor.


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## HavaneseSoon

:bump2: Old post, but I would love updates.


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## davetgabby

Hi Linda. As far as I'm concerned , I still go with Jean Dodds advice.


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## Kathie

Linda, I've been using the Plaque-Off for a year or two now (can't quite remember) but Abby's teeth have never looked better. I will be taking her soon to run titers for all her vaccines and will have her iodine level checked then, too. She seems healthy as can be and has never had to go to the vet except for routine visits.


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## krandall

Kathie said:


> Linda, I've been using the Plaque-Off for a year or two now (can't quite remember) but Abby's teeth have never looked better. I will be taking her soon to run titers for all her vaccines and will have her iodine level checked then, too. She seems healthy as can be and has never had to go to the vet except for routine visits.


Kodi is on it too. I figure if Tom's dogs do well on it, and genetically, Kodi _IS_ one of Tom's dogs,:biggrin1: he should do fine on it too. I do dose on the light side, though.


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## davetgabby

krandall said:


> Kodi is on it too. I figure if Tom's dogs do well on it, and genetically, Kodi _IS_ one of Tom's dogs,:biggrin1: he should do fine on it too. I do dose on the light side, though.


I say why take the risk. Petzlife is much safer in my opinion and combined with good food Molly has had no tartar in two years.


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## wavlngth

Dave, you mentioned Petzlife. Does anyone have any experience with Tropiclean Fresh Breath? I picked some up today for Poppy but now I'm concerned it might not be safe. It's a water additive.

Poppy will be a year in May and is starting to develop some tartar. I was brushing ~ 1x per week. Two weeks ago, I noticed the tartar so now I brush her teeth every night. She actually enjoys it! She also let me scrape the tartar off her teeth with a tool today. Fortunately, she tolerated that quite well also.

I bought the Tropiclean Fresh Breath to keep the tartar in check.


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## davetgabby

wavlngth said:


> Dave, you mentioned Petzlife. Does anyone have any experience with Tropiclean Fresh Breath? I picked some up today for Poppy but now I'm concerned it might not be safe. It's a water additive.
> 
> Poppy will be a year in May and is starting to develop some tartar. I was brushing ~ 1x per week. Two weeks ago, I noticed the tartar so now I brush her teeth every night. She actually enjoys it! She also let me scrape the tartar off her teeth with a tool today. Fortunately, she tolerated that quite well also.
> 
> I bought the Tropiclean Fresh Breath to keep the tartar in check.


not sure on that one but here's a quote from Marj's post back a page or two..."She (Jean Dodds) highly recommends this product: http://healthymouth.com/dogs/dogs# . She has no vested interest in this company, but was part of the testing of it and discovered it to be very safe and efficient and the only natural product that she'd ever use. "
Funny you mentioned this now, I just one minute ago ordered Jean's new book on Hypothyroidism from Dogwise. http://www.dogwise.com/newsletters.cfm?File=weekly_040611.html


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## krandall

davetgabby said:


> I say why take the risk. Petzlife is much safer in my opinion and combined with good food Molly has had no tartar in two years.


I tried the Petzlife and it was a HUGE ordeal getting it into his mouth. He HATED it.


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## Tom King

I think we've been using it for about 3 years now. I'm thinking we had been using it for about 6 months before I started this thread.

I believe any risk is miniscule at best. Iodine is one of those necessary elements for life functions. Getting too little has definately been proven to cause health problems, as well as other problems such as low intelligence in offspring. Probably no person or animal gets exactly the minimum amount, but in order to get the minimum one has to take in more.

For the estimated three years we have been using it, we have only had to brush the teeth of the intact males, and then only rarely. Even then the "tartar" comes off easily, and quickly. We have had absolutely no health problems. All the old dogs are still as spry as they were at any age.

Their teeth still look like the pictures I posted a year or so ago earlier in this thread. I only wish we had known about it before Twinkle and Trip loss some teeth due to gum problems. The teeth they have left are in fine shape since being on PlaqueOff.

Frankly, I think all the scare tactics are a disservice to these dogs. Even an "expert" opinion is still, after all, an opinion. Those of us who really care about our dogs have to make our own decisions. No star gazers here.


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## LochTess

Ricky is 10+ years old and since day one I brush his teeth every day using an Oral Bran rotary toothbrush alternating daily with Petzlife and C.E.T toothpaste. I also use Maxi/Guard every night before bed...

I'm not sure if it's a combination of all that's working or just genetics but Ricky's teeth has no tarter and he's never needed a cleaning... I may sound a little :crazybsessive but I used to be a periodontal surgery assistant and I know the damage periodontal disease can do...


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## Kathie

Wow, Tess! His teeth sure look nice and white in the picture! You're doing a terrific job!


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## LochTess

Thanks Kathie, you'll have to tell Ricky that... The only part he likes is the chicken flavored C.E.T toothpaste:brushteeth:


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## davetgabby

Tom King said:


> I think we've been using it for about 3 years now. I'm thinking we had been using it for about 6 months before I started this thread.
> 
> I believe any risk is miniscule at best. Iodine is one of those necessary elements for life functions. Getting too little has definately been proven to cause health problems, as well as other problems such as low intelligence in offspring. Probably no person or animal gets exactly the minimum amount, but in order to get the minimum one has to take in more.
> 
> For the estimated three years we have been using it, we have only had to brush the teeth of the intact males, and then only rarely. Even then the "tartar" comes off easily, and quickly. We have had absolutely no health problems. All the old dogs are still as spry as they were at any age.
> 
> Their teeth still look like the pictures I posted a year or so ago earlier in this thread. I only wish we had known about it before Twinkle and Trip loss some teeth due to gum problems. The teeth they have left are in fine shape since being on PlaqueOff.
> 
> Frankly, I think all the scare tactics are a disservice to these dogs. Even an "expert" opinion is still, after all, an opinion. Those of us who really care about our dogs have to make our own decisions. No star gazers here.


Tom you said. "Frankly, I think all the scare tactics are a disservice to these dogs. Even an "expert" opinion is still, after all, an opinion. Those of us who really care about our dogs have to make our own decisions." Tom we obviously have different opinions on this topic. Everyone does have to make their own choices. But why you would think someone like Jean Dodds would be using scare tactics is beyond me. She is probably the worlds leading authority on thyroid problems in dogs. If you talk to any one who has met her , including some former members of this forum you will find a lady that is a true patron to our dogs. I know Sabine agrees totally with her protocol on this topic . She knows Jean personally and considers her to be a mentor and one of our dogs greatest advocates. If you choose to disregard her advice ,that's up to you . But I'm putting her opinions out here so people know a little bit more what the views of "experts" are. If the worlds leading cancer researcher told us that smoking was a cause of cancer , I would also tend to believe him/her. I think it's a disservice to Jean Dodds to say she uses "scare tactics". JMO


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## irnfit

I was using th Plaque Off and pleased with the results. However, I'm wondering if it has anything to do with Kodi's weight gain. So while I have him on Sabine's program, I am also eliminating the Plaque Off.


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## krandall

I brush Kodi's teeth a few times a week because I have only one dog, and it's not a big deal if you don't have to do lots of them. (I also often brush his teeth if he's eaten something gross like deer poo, and it gets rid of the smell!:biggrin1 But I also know that just brushing doesn't totally prevent tartar build-up on our teeth, so why should it on a dog? My vet knows I'm using it, knows what's in it, and has no problems with it... he hasn't had much experience with it, and is interested to see how it works with Kodi. 

He said he wouldn't use it on a dog with known thyroid problems, but he saw no reason to avoid it with an otherwise healthy dog.


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## davetgabby

krandall said:


> I brush Kodi's teeth a few times a week because I have only one dog, and it's not a big deal if you don't have to do lots of them. (I also often brush his teeth if he's eaten something gross like deer poo, and it gets rid of the smell!:biggrin1 But I also know that just brushing doesn't totally prevent tartar build-up on our teeth, so why should it on a dog? My vet knows I'm using it, knows what's in it, and has no problems with it... he hasn't had much experience with it, and is interested to see how it works with Kodi.
> 
> He said he wouldn't use it on a dog with known thyroid problems, but he saw no reason to avoid it with an otherwise healthy dog.


The only problem Karen is that ... quoting Jean " Although thyroid dysfunction is the most frequently recognized endocrine disorder of pet
animals, it is often difficult to make a definitive diagnosis. As the thyroid gland regulates
metabolism of all body cellular functions, reduced thyroid function can produce a wide range of
clinical manifestations. Many of these clinical signs mimic those resulting from other causes and
so recognition of the condition and interpretation of thyroid function tests can be problematic."


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