# Vaccinations for Smaller Dogs



## parrotfeathers (Sep 15, 2014)

As most of you know, there is great controversy among some people about vaccinations. Without going into the actual arguments themselves, I am somewhat concerned about the rabies vaccine. The same dosage is used on every dog no matter the size. 

I am not an alarmist. I have talked with my vet several times about titers and he explained why that was not the method to trust (titer is okay don't vaccinate) because one never knew when the titer was going to drop.

Most of what I have read is written by individuals who are not veterinarians. Some have other motives. Some just do not believe in vaccinations of any kind for any creature (including humans). I do not fall into this category. I live in a rural area with hundreds of acres and must vaccinate for my dogs' protection.

But I am worried about the rabies being able to cover a 100 pound dog being given to a 10 pound dog. But, it sure didn't cause any problem for my 9 pound chihuahua. I've seen some havanese owners post how sick their dogs were after vaccinations.

Any thoughts?


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## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

I can only speak for my dog but from the time he was a puppy, he never responded well to the various shots recommended including rabies. The rabies shot would knock him out for 2-3 days, he had a fever, he was lethargic, would vomit, it was horrible. 

Months later, he was diagnosed with Addisons (not related to the rabies shot of course). In the last 8 years, since his Addisons diagnosis, he has not had a single vaccination for anything. He has been tittered for everything including rabies. I believe if my dog had a rabies shot today, it would kill him. I also know that if my dog was not diagnosed with Addisons, I would continue to have him tittered and avoid all immunizations.


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

I have a very tiny Hav, barely 6 lbs. at 13 1/2 months old. She was probably about 4 lbs. when she was vaccinated for rabies. It was given alone, not with any other vaccines, and she had no side effects


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

parrotfeathers said:


> As most of you know, there is great controversy among some people about vaccinations. Without going into the actual arguments themselves, I am somewhat concerned about the rabies vaccine. The same dosage is used on every dog no matter the size.
> 
> I am not an alarmist. I have talked with my vet several times about titers and he explained why that was not the method to trust (titer is okay don't vaccinate) because one never knew when the titer was going to drop.
> 
> ...


While I am all for titering for other diseases and not subjecting my dog to unnecessary vaccines, Rabies is different. YOu have to look at the consequences of NOT vaccinating. If your dog is not current on its Rabies vaccination under your state law, and someone SAYS your dog bit them (whether this actually happened or not) they can immediately destroy your dog to test its brain for Rabies because of the threat to human health. This isn't an "it could happen" scenario&#8230; I actually know someone who chose not to vaccinate her dog with an auto-immune disease. Her dog did NOT bite anyone, but through a case of mistaken identity (all Goldens look alike!) was "fingered" as the dog that bit. Her dog was taken from her and euthanized.

So, you have to weigh the consequences of giving the dog the shot with the consequences of what could happen if you didn't. With an otherwise healthy dog, who had shown no signs of vaccine intolerance, I would do minimal vaccines for everything else, and still do Rabies as required by law, making sure they were given Lysin before and after to minimize side effects. If I had a dog that had a chronic illness where Rabies vaccine was ill-advised (like Django's Addison's disease) or if I had a dog who had a previous bad reaction to Rabies vaccine specifically, I would have to think long and hard about which way to go.

I DO have a dog who had a very bad reaction to his last Rabies booster. I have 2 more years before I need to decide what to do. I had been very sure that I would titer rather than give him another booster&#8230; Until I found out about my friend's Golden. Now I'm not sure.

I know that doesn't help you make the decision, but it gives you my thought process on a difficult subject. When it comes to Bordatella, Lyme and Lepto, to me there is absolutely NO way that I would give them to my dog. Instead I control for those diseases in other ways. Parvo and Distemper are things I definitely WANT my dog protected against, but in the least invasive way as possible. So Kodi had his puppy shots and one year boosters and since then has had only titers. When I get my new puppy, I will do the puppy series, but will titer rather than giving one year boosters also.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Molly120213 said:


> I have a very tiny Hav, barely 6 lbs. at 13 1/2 months old. She was probably about 4 lbs. when she was vaccinated for rabies. It was given alone, not with any other vaccines, and she had no side effects


And the fact is, the MAJORITY of dogs, even is the small and vaccine sensitive breeds, DO do fine with "standard" vaccination schedules. It's just that the consequences can be very bad for those who don't.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

I was vaccinated for rabies last October at 9 months old and 10 pounds and absolutely no side effects.

Since I'm an international traveler, crossing over the border several times a year, rabies vaccinations (current within 6 months) are mandatory by US Immigration, there are no exceptions. My Vet says that there are no "controlled studies" that show that rabies vaccinations cause harm to small breed dogs.

besos, Ricky Ricardo


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## Karen Collins (Mar 21, 2013)

Karen, the law varies from state to state on destroying an animal suspected of having rabies. In my great state of South Carolina, which still is reasonable with its laws, we quarantine an animal before unnecessarily putting down. So, everyone should know their state's law and sometimes county's law in the case of states like Ohio and Georgia, when making serious decisions like vaccinating a sick dog.


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## parrotfeathers (Sep 15, 2014)

In a rural area with wild animals everywhere, I have to vaccinate for lepto and lyme. I was walking the dogs around the farm 2 days ago and came upon a very nasty raccoon. As for rabies, yes, it is a mandatory injection. Here in Mississippi the law states yearly but the vaccine itself is a 3 year vaccine, which I will honor. I do not vaccinate my old farm girls--13 is the oldest. They can barely get off the porch so there is no danger of them wandering off the farm into the 1,000 acres of woods next to me. 

Parvo--yes I have to do that also for puppyhood. Perhaps not adult. But parvo was here 13 years ago near my barn where we housed a litter of stray pups and may still be. 

Thanks for all the comments.


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

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https://66693331640%2Fdodds-dog-vaccination-protocol-2013-2014%23.VL1BYS7JVic

*2013 and 2014 Canine Vaccination Protocol - W. Jean Dodds, DVM*

Dr. Dodds has made only slight, minor changes to the basic, core Canine Vaccination Protocol she established in previous years. Dr. Dodds bases her decisions on numerous factors such as presence of maternal immunity, prevalence of viruses or other infectious agents in the region, number of reported occurrences of the viruses and other infectious agents, how these agents are spread, and the typical environmental conditions and exposure risk activities of companion animals.

Dr. Dodds considers infectious canine hepatitis (adenovirus-1), canine adenovirus-2, bordetella, canine influenza, canine coronavirus, leptospirosis, and Lyme regional and situational. Please research the prevalence in your area, and discuss it with your veterinarian.

*2013 and 2014 Vaccination Protocol*
*Note:* The following vaccine protocol is offered for those dogs where minimal vaccinations are advisable or desirable. The schedule is one Dr. Dodds recommends and should not be interpreted to mean that other protocols recommended by a veterinarian would be less satisfactory. It's a matter of professional judgment and choice.

9-10 Weeks Old:
Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV (e.g. Merck Nobivac [Intervet Progard] Puppy DPV)

14-16 Weeks:
Same as above

20 Weeks or Older (if allowable by law):
Rabies

1 Year:
Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV (optional = titer)

1 Year after the initial dose:
Rabies, killed 3-year product (give 3-4 weeks apart from distemper/parvovirus booster)

Perform vaccine antibody titers for distemper and parvovirus every three years thereafter, or more often, if desired. Vaccinate for rabies virus according to the law, except where circumstances indicate that a written waiver needs to be obtained from the primary care veterinarian. In that case, a rabies antibody titer can also be performed to accompany the waiver request.


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

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https://58271237209%2Ftiter-vaccine-questions%23.VL1Czy7JVid%5B
. There are currently 18 states that officially recognize exemptions from rabies booster, but only on a justified case-by-case basis and following the specific requirements of that state.

*Question:* What is the point of a rabies titer test if my state won't accept it as a medical exemption?
*Answer:* There are two reasons:
1) Rabies titer results are required by many rabies-free countries or regions in order for dogs and cats to qualify for a reduced quarantine period prior to entry. Some of these regions are Hawaii, Guam, Japan, St. Kitts and Nevis, Australia, New Zealand, France, and the United Kingdom. Always check with the destination authority to verify the pet importation.
2) The CDC states that a rabies titer of 0.1 IU/mL or higher is acceptable to protect a person from rabies. Further, the results of the 5-year Rabies Challenge Fund Study showed that immunologic memory for rabies vaccination remains at or above that level of immunity. This information is helpful for pet guardian peace-of-mind in areas where clinical rabies cases occur, and the dog or cat is medically exempt from further rabies boosters.

*Question:* Every year, the titer shows them as low on their distemper antibodies. What should I do?
*Answer:* I suggest titer testing your dog every three years for both distemper and parvovirus. You can also titer for adenovirus, although we don't routinely recommend it. There basically is no or minimal infectious canine hepatitis in North America at present; hasn't been for 15 years except for one minor incident at the Canada/Maritime/US border.

Importantly, any measurable titer to a vaccine including distemper & parvovirus means that the dog has specific committed immune memory cells to respond and afford protection upon exposure. It really doesn't matter how high the titer result is as long as it measures something. If your dogs consistently have no measurable titer to canine distemper virus, it means mean that they are distemper "non-or low-responders", an heritable trait where they will never mount immunity to distemper and will always be susceptible. These dogs should not be used for breeding.

As non-or low-responders to distemper are rare (1:5000 cases), my suggestion is that you retest at least one of them at Hemopet.

*Question: * My veterinarian believes anytime dogs are in contact with water that they are at HIGH risk for contracting leptospirosis.
*Answer:* Not so. Most Leptospirosis strains (there are about 200) do not cause disease, and of the seven clinically important strains, only four - L. icterohaemorrhagiae, L. canicola, L. grippotyphosa, and L. pomona serovars - are found in today's vaccines. So, exposure risk depends upon which serovars of Lepto have been documented to cause clinical leptospirosis in the area where you live. You can call the county health department or local animal control and ask.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

only core vaccinations can be reduced in volume. Dodds is currently studying the effects on small breed dogs. Your stuck with your local laws when it concerns rabies. http://www.hemopet.org/education/small-breed-vaccine-clinical-study.html 
but there's ways around rabies if you need exemption http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/rabies-vaccination-13-ways-to-vaccinate-more-safely/

make sure to get thimersol free rabies vac


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Karen Collins said:


> Karen, the law varies from state to state on destroying an animal suspected of having rabies. In my great state of South Carolina, which still is reasonable with its laws, we quarantine an animal before unnecessarily putting down. So, everyone should know their state's law and sometimes county's law in the case of states like Ohio and Georgia, when making serious decisions like vaccinating a sick dog.


Absolutely. And vaccinating a sick dog (or one that is known to have already had an adverse reaction) is a completely different issue than vaccinating a well dog. Our vet has already said she'd write a waiver exempting Kodi fromRabies vaccination, but that's not good in all states, let alone crossing into another country. (OR coming back!) We also travel frequently out of the country with Kodi. (Canada) We've got 2 years to decide what to do&#8230; either take our chances on vaccinating him again, (probably with the support of meds to help him through it) or leaving him home from then on when we travel in Canada. Not an easy choice, no matter what.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

parrotfeathers said:


> In a rural area with wild animals everywhere, I have to vaccinate for lepto and lyme. I was walking the dogs around the farm 2 days ago and came upon a very nasty raccoon. As for rabies, yes, it is a mandatory injection. Here in Mississippi the law states yearly but the vaccine itself is a 3 year vaccine, which I will honor. I do not vaccinate my old farm girls--13 is the oldest. They can barely get off the porch so there is no danger of them wandering off the farm into the 1,000 acres of woods next to me.
> 
> Parvo--yes I have to do that also for puppyhood. Perhaps not adult. But parvo was here 13 years ago near my barn where we housed a litter of stray pups and may still be.
> 
> Thanks for all the comments.


You DON'T have to vaccinate for Lepto and Lyme. Both are very cureable diseases. Lepto vaccine has the HIGHEST rate of adverse reactions of ANY vaccine, and only protects against a few out of many strains. So a Lepto vaccination doesn't mean your dog can't get Lepto. Dogs that die of Lepto are the ones where people let illness go to "see how they'll do" rather than taking the dog straight to the vet. The best way to Prevent Lepto is not to let your dog drink out of standing water. Teach a strong "Leave it!" and always carry fresh drinking water for them on walks. If they don't have a strong "Leave it", keep them on leash if there is standing water around.

As far as Lyme is concerned, that vaccine isn't very effective either, and also has a rather high side effect profile. (though not like Lepto) The best way to prevent Lyme is to make sure your dog is protected against ticks as much as possible, and to go over them COMPLETELY at least once every 24 hours, just as you would a child. Then titer for Lyme at least twice a year, and treat if the titer is positive. (or high, if the dog has already had Lyme, since they may continue to have a titer once they've had it) I live near "ground zero" for Lyme disease. I am "rabid" about preventing it. So I check my dog for ticks obsessively. In our area, 60% of dogs have sero-converted to positive for Lyme by the time they are 3. Kodi is almost 6, and is still negative. Non-vaccine prevention DOES work if your are careful about it.


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## parrotfeathers (Sep 15, 2014)

What were Kodi's reaction symptoms to the rabies vaccination?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

parrotfeathers said:


> What were Kodi's reaction symptoms to the rabies vaccination?


He developed a high fever and was obviously just feeling ill, with no other reason for it, within about 48 hours of getting the shot. We ended up in the ER over it. They gave him some fluids, and something to bring the fever down, but sent him home when they couldn't find anything specific, telling us to "watch him". My vet had given him Thuja for before and after, but didn't know about adding Lyssin for Rabies specifically&#8230; I don't know whether that would have helped or not. We did start him on Lyssin the next day, and that night, in the middle of the night, his fever broke.

He was in bed with us so I knew just when it happened. He was deep down under the covers, something he NEVER does, and felt like he was on fire against my leg, but was shivering anyway. I dosed off, and woke up with him BURSTING out from under the covers because he had gotten too warm (normal for him). He was wagging his tail and giving kisses again. We kept him on the Lyssin and Thuja for a full week, and each day he had a bit more energy than the day before.

Our vet felt that it was a fairly typical type of negative vaccine reaction.


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## parrotfeathers (Sep 15, 2014)

Poor Kodi. That had to be a heartbreaker. I will keep all of this in mind.

A couple years ago one of the farm dogs came down with kennel cough. In 60 years of dog ownership this is the first time I ever encountered it. At the time I didn't know what it was but the vet diagnosed it immediately. He was treated and recovered quickly. None of the other dogs contracted it thank goodness.

Thirteen years ago I found a litter of 4 lab mix puppies at the dumpster--very normal for this area. We kept them in the barn in a stall--concrete with mats used for horses. Two of them came down with parvo. One died and one was very ill. We had called the vet to come euthanize her. When she got here to next day Mooney wagged her tail. The vet said to give her another day. She recovered quickly and is still here.




Nancy


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Just wondering if any has used Bravecto? It is just one chew every 12 weeks for flea and tick protection. We have a major problem with ticks due to the deers around here. We found a tick on Scout a month ago and then last week one on top of his head. It look inflamed and I took him to the vet. She recommended Bravecto.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Heather Glen said:


> Just wondering if any has used Bravecto? It is just one chew every 12 weeks for flea and tick protection. We have a major problem with ticks due to the deers around here. We found a tick on Scout a month ago and then last week one on top of his head. It look inflamed and I took him to the vet. She recommended Bravecto.


I don't like feed-through insect control, and I don't like the idea of using new products. I want a product that has been around long enough that other dogs have been the guinea pigs before mine.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

I guess I will need to start Revolution again. Scout's coat just got so matted with Revolution. I was concerned that most of it was being absorbed by his coat.


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## StarrLhasa (Jun 6, 2010)

I have not found that Revolution causes any mating for my guys. The reason I decided to use it is because, unlike Frontline, it is not oily or greasy as it is alcohol based and dries very quickly. I am surprised that Scout's coat got so matted.


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## ellasmom (May 6, 2007)

*rabies vaccine reaction*

Ella had a severe DELAYED allergic reaction to her last rabies vaccine and required antihistamines and prednisone to quiet her symptoms. About 24 hrs after the shot she was extremely restless, could not get comfortable, kept hitting her head against the legs of chairs and our bed. She could not nap and or sleep at night. She kept jumping on and off our bed, and running up and down the stairs. In the morning her eyes looked a bit swollen and I called the vets who advised benadryl, which did nothing to help. I brought her in the next day (over 48 hrs after the shot) and by this time her eyes were more swollen, she was scratching and rubbing her ears against anything she could find. 
Our vet felt confident this was not related to the rabies vaccine until I asked him to look up a visit years ago, when she was itching almost constantly. When he saw that visit was four or five days after a rabies shot he agreed this was an extremely rare case of a delayed reaction to the vaccine. I agree with the getting the thimerosol free vaccine. My vet did not have it, and i should have ordered it.
Hopefully, in the future, the vaccine dosages will be lowered for our small babies!!!!


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Scout has a very profuse double coat. He's our puff ball It is not curly. Any moisture causes matting. Revolution made his coat really sticky.The groomer only baths him so I can keep his coat longer. I need to start it again because I don't want to take a chance with Lyme disease. The vet said it is in our area.


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

Isn't Scout a cutie?!!


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

StarrLhasa said:


> I have not found that Revolution causes any mating for my guys.


I use Revolution too. I can't say if it causes matting or not because I am transitioning from puppy coat to mature coat and mating is typical. Only time will tell.

I am currently vacationing in tropical Mexico where Lyme Disease can be a problem - carried not only by ticks but mosquitoes too! I need full spectrum protection like Revolution for my travels.

Ahhhhhhh, tropical Mexico.......7pm and 78 degrees! !Que bien! I think I'll take my Popi for his evening walkies right now.

besos, Ricky Ricardo


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

How old is too old, or, stated another way, at what age should a dog owner ask for a rabies exemption?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

SJ1998 said:


> How old is too old, or, stated another way, at what age should a dog owner ask for a rabies exemption?


I think a lot depends on the general health of the dog! It's a decision every owner needs to make for herself, with the input of your vet&#8230; and you have to live in a state that allows exemptions, have a vet that agrees that it's medically necessary, and not want to travel outside the states that allow exemptions with the dog.


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## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

Bottom line, not vaccinating your dogs comes with a huge responsibility.


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

krandall said:


> I think a lot depends on the general health of the dog! It's a decision every owner needs to make for herself, with the input of your vet&#8230; and you have to live in a state that allows exemptions, have a vet that agrees that it's medically necessary, and not want to travel outside the states that allow exemptions with the dog.


I read in another thread that you have a friend with a lab who is 19 - i would love to know what they are doing with diet, vacs whatever. That is an amazing age for a lab!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

SJ1998 said:


> I read in another thread that you have a friend with a lab who is 19 - i would love to know what they are doing with diet, vacs whatever. That is an amazing age for a lab!


Nothing special&#8230; They are good "pet people" but he has lived on kibble all his life, has gotten "normal" vaccinations as recommended by their local vet, etc.

His only remarkable veterinary experience was when he was MUCH younger and running in the woods, he crashed into some brush and skewered himself on a branch. It actually went through his chest wall and into his thoracic cavity. Being a Lab x, he came bounding back to her, not even seeming to feel it. She was horrified, but had the sense NOT to try to pull it out herself. She rushed him to the vet, where they had to do major surgery to remove it, get all the pieces of debris out, and put drains in to prevent infection. The lucky sod managed to miss all his vital organs and arteries. A year later, you couldn't even see the scar. 

He's pretty geriatric now, as you might expect. She has to help him up and down the stairs in and out of the house, and his sight and hearing are limited, at best. But his nose still works JUST fine, and he comes, all wiggles, into the kitchen to get his baby carrot treats. (as a Lab cross, he's also on a perpetual diet!  ) He loves pats and skritches and does amazingly well for a very old man.


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

krandall said:


> Nothing special&#8230; They are good "pet people" but he has lived on kibble all his life, has gotten "normal" vaccinations as recommended by their local vet, etc.
> 
> His only remarkable veterinary experience was when he was MUCH younger and running in the woods, he crashed into some brush and skewered himself on a branch. It actually went through his chest wall and into his thoracic cavity. Being a Lab x, he came bounding back to her, not even seeming to feel it. She was horrified, but had the sense NOT to try to pull it out herself. She rushed him to the vet, where they had to do major surgery to remove it, get all the pieces of debris out, and put drains in to prevent infection. The lucky sod managed to miss all his vital organs and arteries. A year later, you couldn't even see the scar.
> 
> He's pretty geriatric now, as you might expect. She has to help him up and down the stairs in and out of the house, and his sight and hearing are limited, at best. But his nose still works JUST fine, and he comes, all wiggles, into the kitchen to get his baby carrot treats. (as a Lab cross, he's also on a perpetual diet!  ) He loves pats and skritches and does amazingly well for a very old man.


Wow, what an interesting story. He is quite the wonder dog!


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## Zoe093014 (Jan 27, 2015)

Based on some of the posts, I was really worried about the possible side effects of the rabies shot but I'm happy to report that after her rabies shot yesterday, little Zoe was super playful as usual. The vet didn't have the homeopathic remedies that were mentioned but did give her 1 traumeel tab. with the shot, (anti-inflammatory) and she actually came home more playful than usual and ate all her dinner. She is 7 + months. and a little over 7 lbs.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Zoe093014 said:


> Based on some of the posts, I was really worried about the possible side effects of the rabies shot but I'm happy to report that after her rabies shot yesterday, little Zoe was super playful as usual. The vet didn't have the homeopathic remedies that were mentioned but did give her 1 traumeel tab. with the shot, (anti-inflammatory) and she actually came home more playful than usual and ate all her dinner. She is 7 + months. and a little over 7 lbs.


The vast majority of dogs DO do fine after vaccinations. IT's just if your dog happens to be one of the unfortunate few&#8230; And the trouble is, it's like Russian roulette. You never know which dog is going to react, and the chance is more or less the same with each vaccination they get. (unless they've already had a bad reaction, in which case, the odds are that they will again)

The problem is, that you still have to weigh the risks vs. the benefits. I am not willing to take the risk for treatable diseases like Lyme and Lepto, where the vaccines also have a much higher than average profile for bad reactions. OTOH, Rabies is 100% fatal, and can be passed to humans. I don't see that we have an option there. I just hope that Jean Dodd's Rabies Challenge Fund is able to prove that Rabies needs to be given much less often, and in smaller doses for small dogs. But we are still several years away from the outcome of that research.


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## Zoe093014 (Jan 27, 2015)

I totally agree and appreciate all the info. regarding the vaccines.


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## Hsusa (Dec 21, 2014)

I am always more afraid NOT to give the vaccine, though I know it's a crapshoot. Fortunately, Sheba has never had a reaction. I give Lyme, because we are loaded with deer and ticks, and lots of dogs (and people) get Lyme around here. I worry that I wouldn't catch it in its early stages and that it would get worse.


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## Zoe093014 (Jan 27, 2015)

Thanks Helene. That's good to know.


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