# ANOTHER...food question...



## kicker0927 (Oct 15, 2013)

I've been reading a whole lot about foods out there and I'm about ready to beat my head against the wall due to the varying reviews and opinions regarding EVERY option available. I am picking my puppy up in 2 weeks and NEED to choose a food. The breeder is currently feeding Nutrisource Small Breed Puppy formula, but its hard for me to find that where I live. I have looked at Orijen, but that is very expensive. I began to look at Natural Balance, TOTW, Royal Canin, and others. What do people recommend for small breed puppy formulas??? I'm assuming I want to stick to a small breed formula due to the protein contents? Thanks for your input!


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Fromm is one of the few who don't use ingredients from China. They are very very good. The only other 2 I like are Acana and Orijens as far as dry goes. Fromm is the least expensive of the 3 and has lower protein and the kibble size is small. I get my dog food from chewys website. Free shipping and great prices. Bella and Scuds are currently eating it but will soon transition to Primal, HK or Ziwipeak. Fred is on primal due to skin allergies. He started it a couple weeks ago and is doing well.

I don't feed anything with ingredients from China because of all the recalls.....even treats. Trouble with the food ratings is they don't consider where the companies source their ingredients and most get things from China. The companies I mentioned above do not. I called them myself.


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

You dont want to cheap out on the food. A small dog does not eat that much and you'll save in vet bills later. In fact you probably dont need to take the dogs to the vet in general as much as people tell you to do but that is another topic. I agree with the previous poster, you want to avoid foods from areas without heavy regulation. The US is even a little sketchy on some things. The US allows things that the EU doesnt. 

Many people on here use Honest Kitchen and adding chicken etc using recommendations from a one time consultation with Sabine. If you shop carefully home cooked is not expensive. I use a combination of Ziwi Peak and commercial raw because I am not good with doing home prepared. 

My neighbor feeds Fromm, his dog seems to do well on it. You can also sometimes get a better deal buying online either through promotions such as on wag and/or frequent buying cards.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

My wife and I agonized over our food choice for a while. Our breeder was feeding a high caliber kibble. After doing my research, I decided a raw frozen was best for us. I emphasize "best for us" because I don't mean to imply it is the best. We were not going to prepare the food ourselves and I did not feel the need to consult with Sabine at that time.

We narrowed our raw frozen choice to Nature's Variety Instinct and Primal Raw. We found Primal Raw to be more economical than Natures Variety in terms of price to quantity fed. Primal has a variety of flavors we rotate:

Chicken
Duck
Pheasant
Lamb
Venison
Beef

They also have Rabbit, but Dana would probably divorce me if I fed Gibbs rabbit. She had two rabbits growing up, and in addition to other names, I call her my little "Bunny Head". 

Please note that we don't have any children to raise, so we were not overly concerned about the price. It is more expensive than Kibble.


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## misstray (Feb 6, 2011)

I feed Orijen and Brody does well on it. Some people's dogs find it too rich and use Acana (same company as Orijen) instead as it's a bit lower in protein. I don't find feeding that very expensive. My dog only eats, at most, 3/4 cup of it a day (usually it's closer to 1/2 cup). A bag lasts for a very long time. I wish *my* grocery bill was as cheap!


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> My wife and I agonized over our food choice for a while. Our breeder was feeding a high caliber kibble. After doing my research, I decided a raw frozen was best for us. I emphasize "best for us" because I don't mean to imply it is the best. We were not going to prepare the food ourselves and I did not feel the need to consult with Sabine at that time.
> 
> We narrowed our raw frozen choice to Nature's Variety Instinct and Primal Raw. We found Primal Raw to be more economical than Natures Variety in terms of price to quantity fed. Primal has a variety of flavors we rotate:
> 
> ...


You might want to rotate the more common proteins and save the more exotic one just in case he develops an allergy. You will then need to feed a protein source he's never had.


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## Colbie (Feb 9, 2013)

I am currently feeding Earthborn Hollistic Grain Free Great Plains Feast. I can get a 5 lb bag locally for $15. It lasts for about a month. I will soon be switching her to Orijen 6 Fish which I feel is a better choice. It sells locally for $22 a bag. So for us the difference is about 25 cents a day. The protein in the 6 fish is higher (38% vs 34%). If she has any problems I will switch to the Arcana Pacifica (Arcana and Orijen are both owned by Champion Foods) which has lower protein, I think it is 28%. It is also slightly cheaper at $20 a bag.

As far as kibbles go, Orijen (and Arcana) is one of the best ones as all the ingredients are sourced from Canada and from good sources.
Hope this helps.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

lfung5 said:


> You might want to rotate the more common proteins and save the more exotic one just in case he develops an allergy. You will then need to feed a protein source he's never had.


This gives me something to think about.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

ColbyBlu said:


> I am currently feeding Earthborn Hollistic Grain Free Great Plains Feast. I can get a 5 lb bag locally for $15. It lasts for about a month. I will soon be switching her to Orijen 6 Fish which I feel is a better choice. It sells locally for $22 a bag. So for us the difference is about 25 cents a day. The protein in the 6 fish is higher (38% vs 34%). If she has any problems I will switch to the Arcana Pacifica (Arcana and Orijen are both owned by Champion Foods) which has lower protein, I think it is 28%. It is also slightly cheaper at $20 a bag.
> 
> As far as kibbles go, Orijen (and Arcana) is one of the best ones as all the ingredients are sourced from Canada and from good sources.
> Hope this helps.


I forgot! Earthborn is great too! They don't use anything from China and their food is made in a human grade facility.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> This gives me something to think about.


I'm currently feeding the beef and lamb Primal. I'm saving the exotic ones. Fred has skin allergies and I am still trying to figure out what's causing them. His skin is almost cleared up&#8230;..


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## kicker0927 (Oct 15, 2013)

lfung5 said:


> Fromm is one of the few who don't use ingredients from China. They are very very good. The only other 2 I like are Acana and Orijens as far as dry goes. Fromm is the least expensive of the 3 and has lower protein and the kibble size is small. I get my dog food from chewys website. Free shipping and great prices. Bella and Scuds are currently eating it but will soon transition to Primal, HK or Ziwipeak. Fred is on primal due to skin allergies. He started it a couple weeks ago and is doing well.
> 
> I don't feed anything with ingredients from China because of all the recalls.....even treats. Trouble with the food ratings is they don't consider where the companies source their ingredients and most get things from China. The companies I mentioned above do not. I called them myself.


I'm going to look into Fromm's. I would have to have it delivered as nobody sells it near me.


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## kicker0927 (Oct 15, 2013)

Earthborn looks pretty great too. Anyone have an opinion about Earthborn puppy vs. Fromm puppy?


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I've never tried their kibble. My guys love their duck canned food. Looks like real duck!


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

lfung5 said:


> I'm currently feeding the beef and lamb Primal. I'm saving the exotic ones. Fred has skin allergies and I am still trying to figure out what's causing them. His skin is almost cleared up&#8230;..


maybe try the turkey and sardine primal? I read somewhere - maybe on here - that beef can cause allergies. I just noticed with my boy that he's tearing a bit and he's been eating the primal beef this week.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Actually his skin is clearing up on the Primal. I read something about the Chicken and Turkey. Dave posted something about it in another thread…..It goes through some weird process...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

lfung5 said:


> Actually his skin is clearing up on the Primal. I read something about the Chicken and Turkey. Dave posted something about it in another thread&#8230;..It goes through some weird process...


Yes, from everything I've read, poultry is more likely to cause allergy problems than beef, and chicken is likely to be the worst offender. I just happen to have the dog who didn't read the book, and has a SERIOUS beef intolerance (though not a true allergy) and does fine on poultry! 

I think he's a "Danish dog"&#8230; We have a Danish friend, and when visiting him in Denmark, my son, who was 10 at the time, kept asking why we couldn't get hamburgers in Denmark. My friend very gravely told him that "Cows are for milk, and cheese, NOT to eat!"


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Karen, Tucker can't handle beef, either! Serious backside baths follow that, ha! And he has done well on chicken for years. I am trying to keep him off for awhile now, though, because he has developed some skin irritation from something and I'm ruling things :thumb:


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I've asked Sabine about food allergies, and here is a quote .."Most commonly it's claimed that beef, chicken, corn, wheat, soy, eggs, and dairy are the "top" causes of allergies , but I can't say that I agree, because they are also the ingredients in the most common food brands." Yeah it's important not to use every protein source out there as if they do develop an allergy to a certain protein, they need to find a protein they have not had before. A lot of food intolerances are simply due to poor quality food, especially most kibbles.
According to Jean Dodds "Do you often hear or say "allergies"? More than likely, you are referring to a food intolerance or sensitivity, which is actually quite common. Whereas an actual food allergy is rare" Quite often these intolerances are remedied by switching to a healthier food.

Fresh food, raw
Fresh food, cooked
Frozen fresh prepared or raw, freeze dried, dehydrated
Canned food
Dry food


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> I've asked Sabine about food allergies, and here is a quote .."Most commonly it's claimed that beef, chicken, corn, wheat, soy, eggs, and dairy are the "top" causes of allergies , but I can't say that I agree, because they are also the ingredients in the most common food brands." Yeah it's important not to use every protein source out there as if they do develop an allergy to a certain protein, they need to find a protein they have not had before. A lot of food intolerances are simply due to poor quality food, especially most kibbles.
> According to Jean Dodds "Do you often hear or say "allergies"? More than likely, you are referring to a food intolerance or sensitivity, which is actually quite common. Whereas an actual food allergy is rare" Quite often these intolerances are remedied by switching to a healthier food.
> 
> Fresh food, raw
> ...


****, I thought I was doing the right thing by rotating all the proteins. Gibbs has already had them all, accept rabbit. Is it too late to stop the rotation, or can I still hold back a few that he's had the least - venison, lamb and pheasant and just rotate the most common - beef, chicken and duck?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Sheri said:


> Karen, Tucker can't handle beef, either! Serious backside baths follow that, ha! And he has done well on chicken for years. I am trying to keep him off for awhile now, though, because he has developed some skin irritation from something and I'm ruling things :thumb:


That's Kodi's problem too.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

In Kodi's case, it is a true intolerane to beef, specifically. It doesn't matter if it's beef dog food, a bully stick, or a tiny piece of freshly cooked steak. We put him on a glucosamine supplement a while back, not thinking of the fact that many (including the one we chose) are made of bovine trachea. Even that smsll amount was enough to send his butt to the bath tub!. We switched him to the version made of mussels, and it cleared up immediately.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> ****, I thought I was doing the right thing by rotating all the proteins. Gibbs has already had them all, accept rabbit. Is it too late to stop the rotation, or can I still hold back a few that he's had the least - venison, lamb and pheasant and just rotate the most common - beef, chicken and duck?


I think you would need to feed a protein source he has NEVER had. At least that's what one article said that I read last week. Keep the rabbit on the back burner&#8230;.not literally!!


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## RitaandRiley (Feb 27, 2012)

Kicker, If you're willing to have food delivered, why not stick with the Nutrisource initially? Then you can take your time with the transition to the new food you decide upon. It does not have to be a "small breed" food. Just make sure it's labeled for puppies or all life stages. I think puppies are making a big transition as it is with going to live in a new home, so you should make the effort to keep their food the same as long as it's a quality food, which Nutrisourse is.

The other brands mentioned are all excellent, too and you could consider eventually rotating among them.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> ****, I thought I was doing the right thing by rotating all the proteins. Gibbs has already had them all, accept rabbit. Is it too late to stop the rotation, or can I still hold back a few that he's had the least - venison, lamb and pheasant and just rotate the most common - beehf, chicken and duck?


hi John. Here is the reason from Sabine .. "The gold standard in determining what food items a dog can tolerate, or if the problem is even a food allergy to begin with (or whether reactions are just symptoms of another underlying cause), is called an elimination diet. Properly done, this consists of only two food items at a time (one protein source and and one carb source), without anything else added such as supplements, additives, preservatives etc.

In order to stack odds in the dog's favor, this is ideally started by using food ingredients the dog has never previously been exposed to, so the body doesn't react to an "enemy" it recognizes from a previous encounter. For anything the dog has previously ingested, there's a chance that it may cause a reaction. This reaction could be delayed instead of immediate, so all the hard work of avoiding everything but 2 food items could be for nothing.

All this doesn't mean that the dog can't possibly become allergic to one (or more) of these "novel" food ingredients, but the chances are better that there will be something the dog can tolerate.

You may be able to re-introduce foods the dog has previously eaten after the first phase of the elimination diet, but that really depends on each individual.

If you feed just about any protein source under the sun, things can get really complicated when you are trying to find something your super sensitive dog can tolerate. I have a client right now who has a Bloodhound with really bad case of food allergies. She had previously fed a lot of the available commercial foods, both kibble and raw, including rabbit, pheasant, elk, buffalo, etc. etc. - never with a good outcome and the dog got worse and worse. After close to 3 months I have her at a point no where she can eat a homemade diet with minimal supplementation, and the meat source is ground kangaroo. At $8 a pound. Two pounds a day (95 lb dog). Not everyone can afford that, and even if someone can, it's not necessarily easily and reliably available.

One can feed a lot of variety sticking to the basic meat sources like beef, lamb, chicken, turkey, fish, eggs and dairy products (cow). Maybe there's something that's very conveniently to buy locally (say you live near an elk or buffalo farm and can get better deals than on beef or lamb), but there is really no valid reason at all to go to excess trying to provide variety by feeding everything you can get your hands on without a real need. Absolutely none."

so if you think you're dealing with food allergies/ intolerance consult with Jean Dodds or someone like Sabine,. This is not an easy task, and I always feel sorry for dogs and owners with these issues. The solution is not always simple.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> hi John. Here is the reason from Sabine .. "The gold standard in determining what food items a dog can tolerate, or if the problem is even a food allergy to begin with (or whether reactions are just symptoms of another underlying cause), is called an elimination diet. Properly done, this consists of only two food items at a time (one protein source and and one carb source), without anything else added such as supplements, additives, preservatives etc.
> 
> In order to stack odds in the dog's favor, this is ideally started by using food ingredients the dog has never previously been exposed to, so the body doesn't react to an "enemy" it recognizes from a previous encounter. For anything the dog has previously ingested, there's a chance that it may cause a reaction. This reaction could be delayed instead of immediate, so all the hard work of avoiding everything but 2 food items could be for nothing.
> 
> ...


I have no reason to believe he's allergic to anything. He seems to enjoy all food and hasn't had any reactions. I just thought I was suppose to rotate protein sources to vary the amino acids et all.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> I have no reason to believe he's allergic to anything. He seems to enjoy all food and hasn't had any reactions. I just thought I was suppose to rotate protein sources to vary the amino acids et all.


A lot of times, allergies don't show up until later in the dog's life. kodi showed no signs of allergyies until he was over 4. Then, this last summer, he had a really hard time with environmental allergies. In his case, it seems to be something in the grass, possibly mildew, since it was much worse during prolonged wet periods. He doesn't (knock on wood) have any food allergies.

Allergies can show up at any age.


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## kicker0927 (Oct 15, 2013)

I will be getting a bag of Nutrisource initially from the breeder. Then I will be transitioning him to Fromm's via delivery by Chewy.com....I also have a probiotic I will be using by recommendation of Dave.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Sounds like a reasonable place to start!


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## cathryn (Apr 5, 2013)

kicker0927 said:


> I will be getting a bag of Nutrisource initially from the breeder. Then I will be transitioning him to Fromm's via delivery by Chewy.com....I also have a probiotic I will be using by recommendation of Dave.


Our breeder is feeding Lulah Fromm's Puppy Gold, so that's what I will be feeding her at the start. Not sure yet where I'll go from there.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> I have no reason to believe he's allergic to anything. He seems to enjoy all food and hasn't had any reactions. I just thought I was suppose to rotate protein sources to vary the amino acids et all.


yeah John I know you have no allergy issues, I was just talking in general. Yes it's good to rotate a few protein sources.


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## jravner (Jun 7, 2012)

I started Lily with Orijen, but then she stopped eating it. They don't make a small bites version, so I switched to Earthborn Holistic small breed, which has small bites and she loves it. She is doing very well - at 2 1/2 years old she is very healthy. I agree with the other posters - although it cost me $14.99 for a 5 pound bag, it lasts a long time since she doesn't eat that much each day.


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## tra_po (Aug 14, 2013)

I did a search on Stella & Chewy's and it turned up this post but I can't find reference to this in here. Am I missing mention?

I just ordered Fromm's based on this post. Feeding Ziwipeak and Stella & Chewy's raw and dehydrated right now. Tried Acana and Orijen and Go! and couldn't find one Ludo liked. (I have the most awesome pet-store here that will even give raw samples!) I hate to keep switching. I think part of it, too, is Ludo just doesn't eat much so I need to make sure he does eat when it's time.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

​Bella, my picky eater, will eat Fromms canned food and Ziwipeak.


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## Colbie (Feb 9, 2013)

tra_po said:


> I did a search on Stella & Chewy's and it turned up this post but I can't find reference to this in here. Am I missing mention?
> 
> I just ordered Fromm's based on this post. Feeding Ziwipeak and Stella & Chewy's raw and dehydrated right now. Tried Acana and Orijen and Go! and couldn't find one Ludo liked. (I have the most awesome pet-store here that will even give raw samples!) I hate to keep switching. I think part of it, too, is Ludo just doesn't eat much so I need to make sure he does eat when it's time.


I thought Ludo liked the Arcana Ranchlands?


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## tra_po (Aug 14, 2013)

ColbyBlu said:


> I thought Ludo liked the Arcana Ranchlands?


Yes. He did. For four meals...

:frusty:


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## Colbie (Feb 9, 2013)

tra_po said:


> Yes. He did. For four meals...
> 
> :frusty:


Awwww. Sorry I didn't realize your success was that short lived


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## Alcibides (Feb 14, 2012)

Wellness for small breeds, the one that's marked for TOY breeds. Lucky loooves it and I think it's highly rated.


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## misstray (Feb 6, 2011)

I'll be honest, I reserached my dog food, picked something that was good quality and would work for my lifestyle and was available locally. If Brody hadn't have liked it or wanted to be fussy with it, that would have been his tough luck because that is what he was getting. If he'd have had allergies or something that would have been different. Lucky for me, he really likes Orijen and all things Orijen and does well on it. His treats, however, he is picky with - but I was more inclined to work with him on that in finding stuff he really liked.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

misstray said:


> I'll be honest, I reserached my dog food, picked something that was good quality and would work for my lifestyle and was available locally. If Brody hadn't have liked it or wanted to be fussy with it, that would have been his tough luck because that is what he was getting. If he'd have had allergies or something that would have been different. Lucky for me, he really likes Orijen and all things Orijen and does well on it. His treats, however, he is picky with - but I was more inclined to work with him on that in finding stuff he really liked.


You're a good dog mom.  I believe in being firm on nutrition, and not caving to "pickiness".


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