# Considering making the switch to Raw



## jabellar (Jul 9, 2008)

At 6 months, Castro is 8.1 lbs

He is currently on Innova Puppy food; after reading through various threads in the past months, I am considering moving Castro over to a raw diet.

Was thinking moving him to the NV Raw Medallions, which seems to be a favorite on this forum. I would cook the stuff myself, but don't have the time.. And since Daniel doesn't deliver from Canada, well… I guess I have to go with the next best thing… 

So my questions are… how should I slowly incorporate this into Castro's diet? What flavor would you recommend initially? How much should I feed him? 

I've read the benefits of switching him over - are there any cons? 

Any feedback/suggestions would be much appreciated! As always, many thanks to the tremendous support and advise....


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## SaydeeMomma (Sep 9, 2008)

Welcome to my world!!!!

I've just transitioned Saydee from Innova to Evo, and now she's about 90% raw. We use the NV medallions and I really like them - they're quick and easy and best of all, Saydee loves them. I started with a sample pack that was lamb, which is not my favorite. Mostly because the smell reminded me of dissecting sheep parts in college. She's also had beef and organic chicken. So far I think she likes the chicken the best, but the beef is good too. 

She's been on raw for over 3 weeks now and she's never had the runs, never been sick or thrown up, and we've seen nothing negative about it. She has lots of energy and her eyes are bright. She loves meal time and the added bonus is that her tear stains have almost been eliminated!

I started doing the medallions "just to try it" for one meal a day, giving her the traditional wet food/kibble mix for the other meal (grain-free). When I saw she was doing well, I just started feeling like it was the best thing for her. So, now it's easy just to give her the raw. They do say not to feed kibble and raw in the same meal, so I've avoided that just to be sure.

I've seen mention on this forum of someone having problems with her dog's coat on raw, but she was using a different brand, so it's possible it wasn't meeting her dogs nutritional needs, I don't know. Saydee's coat is better than ever.

The other benefit is healthy teeth. And fresher breath, less odor problems. Some people see smaller poops. Saydee doesn't have smaller poops but she goes less often. Also, I've read that the water in raw food is really an added benefit. Most dogs don't get enough water, especially when eating dry diets like kibble, and this can cause kidney/liver issues over time. I notice Saydee doesn't drink as much water from her bowl because she's already getting it in her food. 

I've met nothing but resistance from my vet regarding raw diet, and even grain-free for that matter. I have yet to find a vet in my area that thinks anything but Science Diet is healthy. DUH. So you might prepare yourself for the cold shoulder from your vet. Plus, relatives and friends might think your weird or obsessive because they don't understand the concept. So be it. Overall, I believe strongly that I'm doing the right thing, at least for now, so I go with my gut.

I do have my fears regarding bacteria, but I've also overthought the issue. There's alot of interesting information on the internet about raw diet, but I've learned to read it all and take it with a grain of salt. I think the best resources are the friends on this forum that have been doing raw for a while and have life experience to share.

It can be expensive, but I figure by the time I buy my top pick for kibble and canned, it's nearly a wash. Plus one less vet bill for teeth cleaning/etc. pays for the rest... and I figure it's the least I can do for my little furry friend.

I do have to say the raw diet is not for everybody, and there are some folks that tried it that felt it didn't work well for their dog. There's never any guarantee that it will be a good fit for you, or that it will continue to be a good fit. That's true with any dog food, right? I think you just need to do what works well for you and your dog. Hopefully, you'll have great results too!


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

I would suggest just switching over to raw and not bother mixing with kibble to transition. I did it this way for both my guys and they never had a problem. I would start with chicken (they have two kinds organic and non organic) and then just go through all the various meats.

One thing I would like to mention is I believe you should incorporate some type of bones into their meal. Either chicken necks for the rmb and or beef necks for the chewing action. If your store sells NV medallions then they probably sell some chicken necks or beef necks. Chicken necks and or chicken backs can also be bought easily from a butcher. Once you feel comfortable with the NV then I would add in the bones. 

Good Luck! I hope Castro enjoys it.


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## jabellar (Jul 9, 2008)

Thanks Maya and Daniel. Will get the individual packages from the store to see if Castro likes it. Daniel - how would you recommend I serve the necks?? 

Many thanks...


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Well I usually break the necks in half and just put them in their bowl. I take them out about 30min before hand and rinse them under cool water. I usually sprinkle some supplements on top, such as Feed-Sentials or a mix of Alfalfa leaves and Kelp, but not always. It gives a bit of extra flavour.

If feeding them for the first time you may want to hold onto one end so they learn to chew them and not just gulp them down.


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## jabellar (Jul 9, 2008)

Ok - hopefully, this'll be my last question...

How much should I feed him? NV's feeding chart on their website said 9.1 oz per day for an 8lb dog. Also according to the website, each medallion is approximately 1 oz each - do I feed him 9 medallions a day??

I read through this thread - http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=5779&highlight=medallion, and it looks like everyone is feeding their dogs anywhere from 2-4 medallions a day.

If I am NOT supplementing the medallions with anything else, should I go with what is recommended feeding guide - I don't really want to have an overweight dog!

I just bought a 3 lb bag of Organic Chicken and 3 lbs of lamb, so hoping to start Castro on the RAW diet this weekend, so I can watch him carefully.

As always - thank you!


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Well, it looks like you have chosen less than half grown to come up with 9.1oz a day. (Do you really think he will end up 16-20lbs at full grown?)

I think at 6 months he would probably fall under more than half grown where the feeding goes down to 6oz a day.

You can always give a little more or less depending on how he is doing... take it day by day..week by week.

Ryan


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## jabellar (Jul 9, 2008)

Uhm... doh! - now I feel a bit stoopeed> 
Thanks, Ryan...


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Maya has said it so perfectly.  Your experience, Maya, should be enough to make anyone convert to raw. :whoo:

jabellar, 9 medallions are way too much for your pup. My boys are 16 lbs. and 9.5 lbs. and would get 4-5 (sometimes 6) per day and they are 2 yrs. old. I still dont' feed them uniquely raw, because I worry about Ricky's sensitive liver and am waiting for him to finally have normal ALT results. Because it's best not to mix dry kibble with raw in one meal, you can start right ahead and feed raw once/day, with maybe dry the other meal. 

Maya, it is such a shame that vets aren't at all open to this. Well, some vets anyway. I printed out the ingdt. list and objective reviews of many "prescription" kibbles, and other types and actually gagged when I read some of them. It is soooooo sad and sooo unnecessary to be giving that crap to our pets. It's not even cheaper than the good stuff in many cases!! Unreal.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

I think the recommended amount to feed a puppy when on raw is something like 5% of their body wieght. For adults its' approx 3% of their weight. These are just guidelines. Bogart and Brando are very active and get about 7% of food each. My guys weigh between 12-14lbs. max. As long as I can feel their ribs I don't worry.


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## jabellar (Jul 9, 2008)

So I fed Castro 4 organic chicken medallions last night - and I was so thrilled, as FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE WE'VE HAD HIM - Castro finished everything in his bowl, and even licked it clean! 

We've always played the "ET game", where I make a trail of kibble to his bowl... This has been very time consuming for me, since I want to make sure he eats before I leave for work. 

I'll let you know how it goes the next few days... Thanks for everyone's input, I am actually very happy to have made the switch!

This morning,


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Good for Castro! 

Ryan


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Good to hear!


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## SaydeeMomma (Sep 9, 2008)

jabellar said:


> So I fed Castro 4 organic chicken medallions last night - and I was so thrilled, as FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE WE'VE HAD HIM - Castro finished everything in his bowl, and even licked it clean!


It's always nice when they are eager to eat and not being picky. Good Boy Castro!


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

The thought of raw just seems off to me. Has nothing to do with the dogs, it's me. I wish I wasn't that way because I'll share what I've found with kibble. I grind it up for little puppies and add water. Even though it's ground up, it eats up all the water and you need to add more to it. It seems to just get more thick as it sits and the food keeps expanding. If I put just kibble in water it keeps eating the water up too. If it's doing that in the bowl, what's it doing in the tummy??????


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## SaydeeMomma (Sep 9, 2008)

JASHavanese said:


> The thought of raw just seems off to me. Has nothing to do with the dogs, it's me. I wish I wasn't that way because I'll share what I've found with kibble. I grind it up for little puppies and add water. Even though it's ground up, it eats up all the water and you need to add more to it. It seems to just get more thick as it sits and the food keeps expanding. If I put just kibble in water it keeps eating the water up too. If it's doing that in the bowl, what's it doing in the tummy??????


Jan
I felt the same about raw at first. I'm not much of a meat-eater myself and raw meat kind of grosses me out. However, I've eased my way in to it, reading everything I could about the subject in the process. The satisfaction of knowing I'm doing the best I can (to the best of my knowledge...) for Saydee makes the bloody meat much less disgusting. And once I started seeing physical results, well...

I totally agree with you about the dryness of kibble. A dog that is not getting enough water can end up with liver, gallbladder and kidney issues because the pups organs are not getting flushed enough. Over time, year after year on dry kibble? Doesn't sound good to me. The "dryness" of kibble alone is a real issue. When feeding kibble I think adding plenty of water or broth is a good idea, as well as adding canned food. After looking in to the issue pretty in-depth, I really don't think any dog should be on an all-kibble diet. But that's just my personal opinion.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

You have to be careful with adding water to some kibbles. With some of them it can causing bloating in your dog's stomach which can be very dangerous.


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## SaydeeMomma (Sep 9, 2008)

DanielBMe said:


> You have to be careful with adding water to some kibbles. With some of them it can causing bloating in your dog's stomach which can be very dangerous.


Maybe just forego kibble altogether, eh Daniel? :becky:


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## jabellar (Jul 9, 2008)

*Officially a RAW Convert*

OMG... I don't know if it's just me, but I think I am already seeing improvements with the RAW diet!

When cleaning Castro's face this AM, I noticed his eye area wasn't moist, it was nice and dry...

His breath smells way better than the past few days...

Castro's poop is less offending in smell, and yes - a lot smaller!

It's just been 4 days, I know - but for Castro to NOT be tired of food is a miracle in itself! He is still cleaning his plate each time I serve him medallions.

I got the NV beef bone, which I'll be serving him shortly.

Question - I am currently serving Castro 6-7 medallions a day, as recommended by NV. Would you recommend supplementing the NV medallions with INNOVA puppy kibble during the day?


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## SaydeeMomma (Sep 9, 2008)

jabellar said:


> OMG... I don't know if it's just me, but I think I am already seeing improvements with the RAW diet!
> 
> When cleaning Castro's face this AM, I noticed his eye area wasn't moist, it was nice and dry...
> 
> ...


I'm so glad you are getting such great results with Castro. I've never known Saydee to turn down a medallion. And the tear staining relief is such a great bonus. Last night my husband even commented on her lack of stinky gas. It really is amazing, isn't it?

While Nature's Variety says it's okay, most sources say not to mix kibble with raw. They say it digests differently, etc. However, I don't do it mostly because *there's really no need* to do it. The NV medallions have all the vitamins and minerals, etc. they need so the kibble doesn't add anything beneficial. Also, I like to see results and if you are mixing the two you may not see improvements as quickly. I think the longer I feed raw the less I like kibble.

Saydee has 6 medallions a day right now (she's 8 lbs/5.5 months) and she enjoys a Kong with frozen canned food once a day as well. We rotate meat sources to keep it interesting and give her a good variety. When training, she gets little pieces of Ziwi Peak for treat rewards (she LOVES Ziwi Peak), or a piece of freeze dried liver. The supplements I give her are probably not even necessary but they're more for me: Salmon Oil (for her coat), Acidophilus (immunity boost), and a Nutrivet tablet that her breeder was giving her that I've just continued using.

So far so good. Saydee eats heartily, and her weight gain is perfect. She has a nice healthy pink puppy belly and a bright glint in her eye. We haven't opened the kibble bag in weeks.


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## jabellar (Jul 9, 2008)

Thanks for your input Maya; the reason I ask is because I don't want him getting hungry as he waits for us to feed him, specially if he is left at home alone.


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## SaydeeMomma (Sep 9, 2008)

Ahhhh, got ya. There are some folks that leave kibble out during the day for that reason. As long as he can handle it without pigging out! :biggrin1: Some dogs gain weight when food is left out for grazing, and some don't. 

Are you worried he's not getting enough to eat? It seems like raw diet dogs act hungry alot. I think it's because they like their food so much that they have food on the brain or something! Puppies are chronically hungry anyway...

I would think Castro is old enough that he could wait throughout the day while you're gone, but or course that's your call. Since he's eating the amount the NV website recommends, it just wonder if might be good to first give it some time and just watch his weight.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

There's no reason to leave out kibble. If you are feeding at breakfast and again at dinner time, he'll be perfectly fine. I sometimes leave a kong with a treat in it. The harder to get it out the better. I make sure my guys don't see me put it in though. Usually I will sneak a treat in when their attention is elsewhere. Then in the morning before I leave, while they are eating their breakfast, I put the kongs somewhere on the floor or couch where they won't see it right away. When I come home I can see they found them.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Another reason they might act hungry on raw is because it digests very quickly, so it does not really sit in the stomach all to long like kibbles do.

Ryan


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## jabellar (Jul 9, 2008)

Ok - so no kibble during the day... gotcha!

I have my boy in the office today, he's napping right on my feet (I have to remember NOT to roll my seat back..) and everyone has commented on how bright his eyes look! 

We have a lot of dog people here, and I've been raving about the NV RAW medallions - I think I might get a few converts out of this!

Again, thanks to Ryan and Daniel and Maya for all your guidance and input, and most of all, your support..


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Jabellar, I agree there isn't really any need for adding kibble if you're feeding 6 medallions/day. That is the right amount for dogs Castro's size. A kong is a good idea, just to keep him busy.

I'm so glad to hear the raw is suiting both you and Castro so well! :whoo:

Now to start introducing raw, meaty bones to your little guy.


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## baca008 (May 16, 2008)

I have a quick question. So I starting Avery on Raw today. She seems to not like it as much as her kibble with a touch of canned food. Did everyones dog like it on the first go or does it take time for them? She tries it and spits it out. Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance


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## SaydeeMomma (Sep 9, 2008)

baca008 said:


> I have a quick question. So I starting Avery on Raw today. She seems to not like it as much as her kibble with a touch of canned food. Did everyones dog like it on the first go or does it take time for them? She tries it and spits it out. Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance


Saydee loved it right away. What brand are you using and what meat source? I know Saydee eats all the different meats, but seems to particularly love the organic chicken.

It may just take some getting used to. It's quite different from eating dry kibble and canned! You might vary the temperature. I notice Saydee likes the NV medallions best when they are nearly room temperature, so I put them on the granite countertop for about 20 minutes before serving. I think Daniel said he adds a tablespoon of boiling water right before feeding his boys and it gets their mouths watering. If Avery likes salmon oil a little squirt might whet his appetite too. Good luck!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

one thing to keep in mind with raw is that chicken can be a concern. Here is a link to a Canadian study. Not all dogs tolerate raw. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=339295


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

davetgabby said:


> one thing to keep in mind with raw is that chicken can be a concern. Here is a link to a Canadian study. Not all dogs tolerate raw. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=339295


It's funny when my vet asked me what food I was feeding my dogs and I told her I fed raw, she quickly went and got me an article that repeated exactly what the article suggested. Btw the article does not say dogs cannot tolerate raw, but that trace amounts (I notice that they don't really indicate how small a trace this actually is) of salmonella were found in the stool samples. It does not indicate that feeding raw is harmful to dogs. There has not been one study yet, that I'm aware of anyhow, that indicates raw is harmful to dogs.

I'm also not so sure why there is concern about an environmental contamination? When my dogs go potty, I pick up after them. They don't poop in the house unless once in awhile Brando goes on the pee pad. How long do the trace amounts of salmonella stay alive once they've been pooped out?? No mention of that. While I appreciate the study and the concern, they leave out too many answers. I just wish they would have gone a bit further.


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## baca008 (May 16, 2008)

SaydeeMomma said:


> Saydee loved it right away. What brand are you using and what meat source? I know Saydee eats all the different meats, but seems to particularly love the organic chicken.
> 
> It may just take some getting used to. It's quite different from eating dry kibble and canned! You might vary the temperature. I notice Saydee likes the NV medallions best when they are nearly room temperature, so I put them on the granite countertop for about 20 minutes before serving. I think Daniel said he adds a tablespoon of boiling water right before feeding his boys and it gets their mouths watering. If Avery likes salmon oil a little squirt might whet his appetite too. Good luck!


I got Avery the Chicken NV medallions. So I tried again this morning to give her the raw and she would not have anything to do with it. So I guess each do is different so back to canned and kibble for Avery. It was worth a shot. Just wanted to try it since I keep reading great comments about it. Oh well. Thanks


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## SaydeeMomma (Sep 9, 2008)

baca008 said:


> I got Avery the Chicken NV medallions. So I tried again this morning to give her the raw and she would not have anything to do with it. So I guess each do is different so back to canned and kibble for Avery. It was worth a shot. Just wanted to try it since I keep reading great comments about it. Oh well. Thanks


Oh, that's too bad. What a bummer! Maybe you can try them again in the future.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Baca008,

you should continue to try feeding the raw at each meal, you never know...

How are you serving it? room temp? cold out of the fridge? in a bowl or flat plate? There are some picky eaters out there ya know!! hahahah

Ryan


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

baca008 said:


> I got Avery the Chicken NV medallions. So I tried again this morning to give her the raw and she would not have anything to do with it. So I guess each do is different so back to canned and kibble for Avery. It was worth a shot. Just wanted to try it since I keep reading great comments about it. Oh well. Thanks


Don't feel bad, every dog is different and I wouldn't kill myself trying to get her to eat raw. I have three dogs and they are all different. None of my three would touch the ready made raw food either by itself or mixed with their kibble. I tried NV, primal, grand dad's (I think that's the name) and Steve's something or other. My cream standard and Bugsy love raw beef and chicken, but my red female will not touch any kind of uncooked meat and she also hates pork, my kosher girl. lol None of them will also touch canned, but all three love, love, love home cooked.


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## SaydeeMomma (Sep 9, 2008)

You know what's weird? I was still giving Saydee an occasional meal of Evo kibble mixed with canned about twice a week. I did it mostly just to keep that option open... but she seemed so hungry on the days I fed her a kibble breakfast. I kept thinking I wasn't feeding her enough. Well, I finally figured out that she had been going in the backyard and throwing up the kibble! Little piles of unused kibble. The raw food has never ever caused her to vomit or even have the runs. So I guess she's telling me to stick with what works!


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

baca008 said:


> I have a quick question. So I starting Avery on Raw today. She seems to not like it as much as her kibble with a touch of canned food. Did everyones dog like it on the first go or does it take time for them? She tries it and spits it out. Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance


Don't give up just yet!  When I first fed raw medallions, my two weren't sure what to do with them. lol I sprinkled a bit of freeze dried liver on them and they went nuts. Didn't have to do that more than once though as they loved the medallions.

I do it with my homemade raw mix as well, just a bit of liver sprinkled over the top to get Sammy (my fussy one! :frusty: ) to start eating.

Hmmm...... who has who trained, I wonder?? ound:

I'm not worried at all about feeding raw, but yes, I know there are some dogs that just may not thrive on a raw diet, as there are some that don't do well on kibble. It is true that we should be careful about bacteria, salmonella, etc... and keep things clean. I wouldn't let my Havs drag their chicken wings to the couch and always wash their faces/beards after they eat raw. Mostly because they get sticky and smelly.


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## baca008 (May 16, 2008)

marjrc said:


> Don't give up just yet!  When I first fed raw medallions, my two weren't sure what to do with them. lol I sprinkled a bit of freeze dried liver on them and they went nuts. Didn't have to do that more than once though as they loved the medallions.


I tried mixing some of her canned food into the raw but no go. And she loves her canned food. Avery used to get kibble only and she'd eat a little bit but now with canned she cleans her bowl. Maybe, I'll try again tonight with dinner.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

baca008 said:


> I tried mixing some of her canned food into the raw but no go. And she loves her canned food. Avery used to get kibble only and she'd eat a little bit but now with canned she cleans her bowl. Maybe, I'll try again tonight with dinner.


Maybe try taking a small piece and putting in her mouth. Once in, maybe she'll start chewing and like it.

If not, well no harm done. Just use a high quality kibble.


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## baca008 (May 16, 2008)

Well the first time I tried raw. I got Avery to put a little bit in her mouth after which she spit it out onto the carpet. But still going to try one more time tonight. I have no problem with her kibble. She eats Orijen and Merrick canned food.


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## lstrother (Oct 13, 2008)

*Try another variety?*

Ranger has been eating NV venison medallions, and I tried to switch to chicken for variety, and he would have nothing to do with the chicken. He will only eat the venison if they are precisely the right temperature, which means thawing them completely in the fridge and then taking the chill of with about 5-10 seconds in the microwave. So maybe a different type of meat would work better?

Lynn


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Okay Belle is completely switched to raw. Based on NV site, she should eat 4 medallions a day but if I break her day to morning and evening. She doesnt eat 4, she usually eats about 3. She leaves a bit on her plate each meal. Is she really full? I know a lot of you say your dogs scarf it down. She definitely likes it and wont eat the kibble if I mix it anymore but I just worry if she isn't eating it all. Or does Belle (unlike me!) know her limits and when she is full. 

Amanda


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Amanda,

I guess all her animal survival instincts are gone and she knows her Mama is good for her next meal.. lol See! thats great... she actually trusts you will feed her again.. lol

Ryan


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