# Transition to Raw for all 3



## ama0722

Last year, Isabelle had dental problems and I decided to put her on commercial raw. Around here, NV is the easiest to get. Belle has done very well. Then I went to the nutrition seminar that I posted about and I have decided to put all 3 on raw. I decided to put them all on commercial raw until I learned more and depending on how they were doing, I would add the "prey meals" as well. Belle loves her raw medallions so this was no problem for her. Dora also likes raw but Dora has the issue of eating so fast she often gets sick on it. So I wanted to make sure to do a medallion at a time. They can eat the raw a lot faster than kibble. And Dash, is my problem child who acts like I am trying to kill him. He previously would only eat the raw if I cooked it, fed it to him in tiny pieces. The first 2 days, Dash refused to eat. In fact he wouldn't go near the raw and then avoided me in the kitchen. That next night he had agility class and he was the most annoying dog in the world trying to get food from everyone. He was fast and willing to run with anyone. He even ate a piece of pupperoni (Dash has never ate anything like this in his life and I would have bet you money he wouldnt even sniff it!) Well the next morning he was all over me so I got out some medallions added some warm water and he ate them!

With Belle, I tried giving her some of the RMB since she has been on medallions for a long time. The problem is with Belle she gets 3 ounces of raw food per day. So I just thought I would see how she would do with a turkey neck and some organ meat. Belle is such a wolf in sheeps clothing, to see this tiny white dog, show you she really is a dog is hilarious. I had to distract her to get the turkey neck away. I do have a food scale so it helps to see how much she ate.

After making sure Dora was eating slower just giving her a little piece, I gave Dora and Belle a chicken thigh yesterday. Well Dora was confused and unsure. She wouldn't eat it. Meanwhile I have to watch Belle not hurry up and try to eat them both. But guess who eats his raw medallions and grabs Dora's chicken thigh... Dasher!!! He is doing very well this quickly. Thanks to the advice from my wonderful breeder (that this time I listened too!!!) to just say if he doesn't eat don't play that game and I stuck to it besides the agility treats.

I just wanted to share as all 3 of my dogs are different. Belle took to raw like how they describe- immediately and crazy. She has always loved the big bones but some dogs have more issue with the commercial raw. I do have to say so far none of mine are a fan of primal, I think it is too wet with too many veggies.


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## Scooter's Family

What will you do if you ever have to board them somewhere though? These are the things I worry about, crazy huh?


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## Leslie

That's great, Amanda. So glad to read that Dashie has finally figured out you're not trying to poison him by giving him raw :laugh:

I wonder what it is w/the Primal raw, Tori wouldn't eat it either :suspicious: She's also a bit "on again, off again" with the NV medallions. I need to find another brand to try with her. Anyone have suggestions???


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## Jane

I loved reading your description of how each of your crew reacted to the raw 
Glad to hear that everyone is eating now!!


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## Scooter's Family

Cracks me up that Belle likes the big raw pieces! She's so tiny.


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## Leslie

Ann~ Belle is a huge dog trapped in a little dog's body :biggrin1:


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## Scooter's Family

She's so funny and tough, until the storm rolls in. Then she breaks your heart!


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## ama0722

Ann-I have never boarded my dogs. You have to know by now how much of a freak I am-lol! I do travel with them quite often though and I can't always take raw and I am realistic about that. I will probably feed them canned tripe or something like that which I often do even when I travel now. Last year, when Dash refused to eat during our cross country trips, he survived on the dehydrated raw on top of some kibble (he thinks that is doggie crack)- ironically he wouldn't touch real raw at the time. You can go off raw and survive.

I will try to get some pictures or video for those of you who aren't freaked out-lol Especially of Belle cause it is so ironic to watch her. But the medallions look less meaty than chicken breast or beef you buy at the store.

Leslie- but guess what Dash loves... the venison medallions!


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## Beamer

Congrats Amanda on finally getting them all on board the raw express! lol
Lets see osme video's of them going to town!! 

Ryan


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## Scooter's Family

I'm freaky too, that's why I'm panicky about our trip. I told Gavin I'm going to cry the whole way. He told me I'm not allowed to cry for a 9 hour car ride but last night he was doing the baby talk stuff to them saying, "Tell mommy to let you go too!" He's so mean!


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## Mraymo

That's funny how Dash responded. I bought the NV venison medallions for Izzy awhile back too. I'd give them to her in the evening but kept the kibble in the morning. She really liked them. My contract spells out what food I have to feed her to keep the health guarantee so.....


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## ama0722

Ann- have a great time and they will be thrilled when you get back, I am sure. Dogs so live in the moment. My MIL always teases cause Dora does this well. For extending trips, they have stayed up at their farm. Dora will love them sit, on their laps and as soon as I arrive, she acts like she wants nothing to do with them! Last time, I didnt believe them so they took pictures 


Marianne- your contract says like what brand of food you have to feed her? And if you switch it is void?


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## CinnCinn

Looking forward to the video!
Mine have done so well on raw for 2 years. To me, it's a very simple way to feed. No waste, they eat every bite. They're done eating in just a couple minutes with no drama. Their poop is 1/2 the size and very regular & NO dingle-berries. The best part is that they really love it. It's one of their great joys during the day. When they hear me pull the dishes out, they run for the kitchen. I love that.

Rudy prefers NV - all different flavors. Rocky is on Primal because his tearing seemed to be worse on NV.


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## mellowbo

I put all mine of NV raw for the AM and Evo kibble for the rest of the day but they got diahrrea. Did that happen when you first switched Amanda? The other problem was Gabby gobbled it down, (Gabby gobbles anything down) Lulu ate it eventually and Vinny, well, maybe, maybe not. It seemed to take forever to monitor the feeding.
Carole


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## Mraymo

ama0722 said:


> Marianne- your contract says like what brand of food you have to feed her? And if you switch it is void?


Yup! It was around the time that all the contaminated dog foods were making dogs sick, I wanted a health guarantee that he didn't usually do so that was the compromise. He felt if the dog became sick, it could be from the food so that was his stipulation.


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## DanielBMe

If you have to board, you can simply feed kibble for that short time. No harm done. 

When I moved from commercial raw to making my own, I noticed a big difference in how much more my guys enjoyed their food. I actually have to go to my supplier tomorrow and buy 40lbs of meat since I'm just about out. I'm getting 10lbs of beef, 10lbs chicken, 10lbs lamb, and 10lbs turkey. I made a large batch of lentils this evening to mix into the meat.


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## Leslie

Mraymo said:


> Yup! It was around the time that all the contaminated dog foods were making dogs sick, I wanted a health guarantee that he didn't usually do so that was the compromise. He felt if the dog became sick, it could be from the food so that was his stipulation.


So, what brand is it he trusts?


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## Mraymo

Purina ProPlan


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## good buddy

Daniel, Be careful when you buy your beef--anyone really be careful! There's recently been a huge beef recall due to E-Coli contamination. http://www.fsis.usda.gov/News_&_Events/Recall_034_2009_ReleaSe/index.asp


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## Kathy

DanielBMe said:


> If you have to board, you can simply feed kibble for that short time. No harm done.
> 
> When I moved from commercial raw to making my own, I noticed a big difference in how much more my guys enjoyed their food. I actually have to go to my supplier tomorrow and buy 40lbs of meat since I'm just about out. I'm getting 10lbs of beef, 10lbs chicken, 10lbs lamb, and 10lbs turkey. I made a large batch of lentils this evening to mix into the meat.


Daniel,
I know you have shared this info before, but can you share also on this thread where you buy your meat, what it roughly costs you in US dollars if possible, and what you feed daily? I would like to go back to feeding all of mine raw, but the commercial raw is too costly.


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## mellowbo

Just curious, does the raw, commercial or home made stain their faces? Do you have to wash their faces after every meal?


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## ama0722

Carole- I didn't have any transition issues with any of them, just opposite of diaharrea, raw makes them very solid compared to kibble and very tiny. With NV, I don't really have to wash faces as they eat it by the nugget or in pieces when i use the patties but the primal chicken I bought has a lot of liquid from the fruits/veggies so yes their face gets pretty wet. My pups arent really fans of this so I will use it but not buy it again. 

I haven't noticed any additional staining from Belle. She gets tear stains and I don't want to use antibiotics on her and I am lazy about washing her face daily. But she has been on NV- between the chicken, beef, and lamb. She isn't a fan of the venison (but Dash is). But I would say she gets less face staining than with some kibbles for sure.


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## Redorr

I have been feeding Lola raw for about a year. Her poops decreased in size by half. And she hasn't had a dingleberry or poopy butt since. I give her a combo of NV and Primal - all different flavours. Lola will eat anything, and at lightning speed. So, to slow her down, I feed all of her meals from a Kong. It was recommended by my Vet and trainer. And I will often freeze the food in the Kong so it will take even longer. She loves any sort of Raw Meaty Bones, so I give her a chicken thigh or back or a turkey neck every few days. I gave her a chicken neck and she swallowed it whole! I was so worried, but not one thing resulted from that. Her elimination was normal, no throwing up. Must be some serious digestive enzymes inside these little pups!

Twice in the past week I dropped fairly large pieces of vegetables on the floor during dinner prep. Lola absconded with them - carrot and zucchini bits. I didn't stop her or worry - but both times she had a very small amount of vomit first thing the next morning. So I guess no more chunks of veggies to gnaw on. 

When I travel, I freeze the kongs before we go, and bring a bag of frozen medallions. And then if I am visiting friends, will just get RMBs there. I also have a bag of the NV freeze dried raw on hand for traveling. They are OKAY for short periods.


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## mellowbo

Actually the Evo causes very tiny dry, turns white, poop too. It's just that they got the diahrrea when I tried the raw. Maybe I'll give it another try...........


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## Missy

Amanda, thanks for sharing this experience. Funny that little Belle is the true carnivore. I finally have both my boys on the NV Medallions raw and they are both doing great. I guess Jasper didn't really need more carbs after all. he just needed me to stop cooking the medallions...LOL.

I just wanted to share what the nutritionist shared with me about both stretching the medallions and also making them more balanced (obviously in her opinion...but it has worked for us) She says you can feed 25% of lean ground meat (turkey, beef, chicken.) She feels the commercial raws have too much calcium in them. For us it also works because an ounce of 7% ground turkey or beef has less calories than a medallion so Cash can get a little more food and feel more satisfied. I just get 4 packages of ground turkey and press it into a rimmed cookie sheet. I score it into small squares and freeze it. When it is frozen I break them apart and freeze it in freezer bags and dole it out with the medallions. about once a week I feed them only medallions to make sure I am not going over the 25%.

I had started feeding Cash cooked green beans as a filler to fill him up, but found they have a more comfortable pooping experience when they are included- so I have continued. We also give them snatches of what ever we are eating... different meats and veggies to round out their nutrition (and we like sharing)

I don't think I will ever be able to do a home made raw diet- but I said I would never feed the medallions raw either...so we will see.

We just traveled with the medallions... I bought these containers...

http://www.fit-fresh.com/products/transportation/lunchonthego.php

didn't use the little inner containers filled them with medallions with the cooling piece in the middle and placed them in a cooler that claimed it kept ice frozen for 6 days...it did keep everything frozen for 6 hours. (last year we arrived with soggy medallions in a regular cooler without these containers)

I also think most boarding places will feed the food you bring.


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## CinnCinn

I cut the medallions and nuggets into smaller bite sized pieces and spread them out over the plate (clear glass). It keeps the face cleaner.


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## Kathy

Missy said:


> I just wanted to share what the nutritionist shared with me about both stretching the medallions and also making them more balanced (obviously in her opinion...but it has worked for us) She says you can feed 25% of lean ground meat (turkey, beef, chicken.) *She feels the commercial raws have too much calcium in them*.


Missy,
I would love to hear more about this part if you have more information. The high calcium is why Myra Sarvant say's she is against feeding Raw. I know why she say's that, but I would be interested in knowing what the formula was the nutritionist had suggested. I have always preferred feeding Raw.

thanks, Kathy


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## ama0722

Kathy- I have been reading a lot before taking the plunge to make my own and here is a post where someone complains about the primal mix not following the 80/10/10. And that much veggies no wonder my guys don't like it! I am very concerned about making my own and getting the % right. I don't have a place near me that grinds the bones in the meat so I was looking at alternatives or getting it shipped. So far the best suggestion is doing ground with supplements a few days a week and then RMB a few days a week.



> From a prey model standpoint (feed 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% other organs), I have concerns about how balanced the Primal forumlas are. If you go to their website, they between 7 and 9% organ, up to 40% veggies and no less than 15%, and calciumhosphorus ratios ranging from 1:1 to nearly 2:1. They are said to be completely balanced.
> 
> The Primal mixes (there are formulas, mixes and grinds) have between 8 and 12% organ. The calcium ratios are a little more consistent, and they don't go over 20% veg. Looking at the ingredients, though, all the red meat mixes are "heart, liver, bone, veg." Heart isn't an organ, but it does have differences from other muscle meat. I don't like to feed heart more than once a week. The poultry mixes are two very bone-heavy items, followed by heart and liver and veg. They are said to be balanced after you add your own vitamin supplements to the mixes.
> 
> I would love to see what their criteria for "balanced" is based on. I assume it ends up being more like kibble, where things even out because of the supplements they're adding to the mix. Everyone has their own thoughts on whether veggies should be part of a dog's diet, but I think there's a pretty strong consensus that 40% veg is too much.


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## Leslie

CinnCinn said:


> I cut the medallions and nuggets into smaller bite sized pieces and spread them out over the plate (clear glass). It keeps the face cleaner.


That's the way I do it, too, except I use a bowl. Tori just picks up one piece at a time.


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## DanielBMe

I would think that if you are doing the ratios of appprox 75% meat, 5-15% veggie, and 10% organ, you should be perfectly fine. As a matter of fact I don't pay all that close attention to my ratios anymore. As long as I'm in the ballpark that's perfectly fine as it eventually all balances out over time. I would say my veggie mix is closer to 10% from 15% when I first started. I mix in lentils and cottage cheese as well as Nupro and sometimes some extra kelp. Some batches have cottage cheese some don't. Some of extra kelp, some don't. 

Too bad you don't have Tollden Farms raw patties down there. I believe they are only in Canada. But every once in awhile I will buy one of their packaged raw products. They have two types of patty mixes. One uses veggies and the other uses Botanicals which has a mixture of ground seeds, roots and grasses. I will buy the botanical mix to give my guys something different.

40% veggie mix though seems awfully high. I suspect they are trying to keep the cost of their patties down by doing so. 

I tend to feed my guys offal twice a week. I take out an 8oz patty and give them 2oz each of it mixed in with their breakfast, a 3.5oz patty, then do the same the next day. Then some time the next week they get it again.


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## ama0722

Daniel how often do you feed RMB or do you never? I am having trouble with finding a RMB say a neck or a wing. For specifically Belle who only gets 3.5 ounces per day, it is almost impossible to do RMB with a 10% bone ratio in such a little size. Chicken thighs seem to be it thus far. So I was given the advice say I give her a wing the next day I give her meat/organs and no bone.


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## Missy

Kathy said:


> Missy,
> I would love to hear more about this part if you have more information. The high calcium is why Myra Sarvant say's she is against feeding Raw. I know why she say's that, but I would be interested in knowing what the formula was the nutritionist had suggested. I have always preferred feeding Raw.
> 
> thanks, Kathy


Kathy, this is what Sabine wrote me when I queried... She bases her calculations on NRC not AAFCO which she feels are a bit outdated. She does sometimes answer questions even without a consult. [email protected]. I have no reservations in recommending her. You get a lot of info and support for your consultation fee and she always says never hesitate to ask questions. I actually felt guilty because she was giving me so much free info I decided to do a consult for Jasper after Cash's success even though he was doing great. With her recommendations, Cash is down to 22.8 from 24lbs...has more energy is no longer starving, and no longer eats his poo. Check out her website. betterdogcare.com -- there is a lot of info on there.



> The calcium is high in NV raw products, they give the analyses on their website and I use them in my spreadsheet to calculate a better nutrient ratio according to the National Research Council's recommendation. They recommend a ca/ph ratio of 1.3:1 for adult dogs, which I aim for. Of course nutrient levels can be better controlled in a completely homemade diet, but where I can get information from a manufacturer, it's not an issue and I don't use food products for diet analysis unless I can get sufficient data.


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## moxie

Uh, where do they eat these chicken thighs? Sounds very messy.


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## ama0722

I should be feeding them in their crates (thanks to leeann everyone knows I don't use crates!) but I have been feeding it outside on the deck or the porch. With the rmb's, I do wash their faces when they are done as their beards get all wet. I think the medallions are less of an issue than canned food with keeping the face clean.


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## moxie

I have to say that I am not a fan of meat messes and just give him the medallions in a bowl, twice a day. I notice a huge difference in poop volume on dry. Moxie happily eats everything except Stella and Chewy dehydrated.


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## ama0722

Debbie- I agree for the most part. I should probably feed them in crates. But I can't say no to my little wolf in maltese print. Here is a little clip of Belle eating a 3 oz turkey neck. Dora and Dash had medallions. Belle had a breakfast medallion as well.


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## Missy

Amanda, I am so amazed that Dash and Dora let her eat in peace. I am very impressed with their obedience training. Good for you...there is just no way I could do it.


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## moxie

Pretty cute wolves!


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## ama0722

Actually, they don't let her but she lets them know whose dinner it is. Belle takes her food pretty serious even though she is so little! The first few times I have given her RMBs, I did separate them. I didn't want something to get swallowed whole in order to avoid someone else getting it. Now she is more comfortable and she growls to warn them it is hers and to stay away. The dogs do eat the medallions a lot faster so they do have time to wonder but they know leave it.


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## DanielBMe

3oz Turkey neck?? Where on earth do you find such small turkey necks? The turkey necks I buy are about close to a lb each lol. They are huge! 

My pet food store sells 3lb bags of chicken and turkey necks. But my grocery store also sells turkey necks for $.75lb. 

Usually every other day my guys will get an RMB. Ex today they got a patty each for breakfast and for dinner. Tomorrow they will get a patty each for breakfast and then for dinner half a patty each and 2 chicken necks each. I would say I do that about 3 times a week. But not always. Sometimes I change things up. Maybe just 3 chicken necks or a turkey nech for dinner and not mix in a patty.

My guys typically eat their chicken necks right from the bowl. They certainly don't carry them throughout the house.


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## ama0722

Daniel-I cut it so that way I could monitor how much she ate, the other 3/4ths is in the freezer. Okay I made some raw patties without bones today. My kitchen looked like fear factor with organs in the food processor. Since the turkey neck is about 30% bone tomorrow for breakfast, she won't get any bone. I am just concerned with balancing stuff out. I know a lot of people say it just works out, but I want to be as close as I can be


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## mellowbo

OK, so DH wants to know why I don't pay such close attention to what he and I eat. 
Carole


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## DanielBMe

Not all my ground meat contains ground bone in it. My lamb and beef are without ground bone whereas the Turkey and Chicken do contain bone. So how much RMB they get sort of depends on what I'm feeding them at the time. 

The bottom half of my freezer is layer upon layer of dog patties for my boys. 40lbs worth at the moment lol

I definitely watch what my guys eat far more than for myself. Not sure why exactly. I guess my cravings for sweets is far more powerful than their sad stares.


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## ama0722

Carole- you mean you don't check his stool daily LMAO!?!?! I completely agree... I ate the equivalent to pupperoni for humans last night... bad me! But I did cook for the rest of the week


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## Leslie

DanielBMe said:


> Not all my ground meat contains ground bone in it. My lamb and beef are without ground bone whereas the Turkey and Chicken do contain bone. So how much RMB they get sort of depends on what I'm feeding them at the time.
> 
> The bottom half of my freezer is layer upon layer of dog patties for my boys. 40lbs worth at the moment lol
> 
> *I definitely watch what my guys eat far more than for myself. Not sure why exactly. I guess my cravings for sweets is far more powerful than their sad stares.*


I hear ya!!!


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## Sheri

So, what do the dogs do with the chicken thigh-bones? They surely can't EAT them, right? Aren't they too hard? Or, are they somehow able to crack them apart, and if so, couldn't they choke on them?


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## ama0722

Sheri- yes they eat them all. They say the ideal diet for dogs is 80 meat/10 bone/10 organs. Dasher's favorite thing is a chicken wing thus far. I put him and Dora in the xpen the other morning with chicken wings. I am to the point, I trust Belle, I have watched her lay the meat and bone on it's side and she bites it all up. But Dash and Dora, I still feel the need to watch pretty closely. But Dash went to town and didn't gulp or anything dangerous. He basically grinds it all up with his teeth bone and all. What shocked me is he ate his and then walked over and took Dora's. Dash is always needing to gain some weight. He is thriving in agility and just zooms all over the place so I just wanted to make sure he didn't get sick but he was fine. He has more than his share of food in one sitting but he did eat a little dinner too- I gave him just meat and organs since he had like 40% bone in the first sitting. Dash definitely already prefers the prey model diet. It is very interesting how easy they have gone to this. I know Kathy introduced him to raw as a puppy but he acted like I was trying to kill him with some medallions. He still is a snob when I put on the commercial medallions but he is also the dog that will not eat canned food. I would say he is a naturalist but he loves potato chips


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## HavaBaloo

Sounds like you have a great system Amanda. I haven't been able to try to make my own patties though, it sounds like alot of work.

Baloo is alot like Dash I think, doesn't care for the commercial raw at all, especially the Urban Carnivore "dinners" with blueberreis lettuce etc in it. I am having to follow more the prey model as well. His favourite by far is the local lamb chops I get, he loves that meat and bone the best.

Do you give any extra oils, vitamins etc? Baloo usually only gets fish 1 a week and I am wondering if that is enough?


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## Leslie

Amanda~ Are you still leaving kibble down for them?


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## DanielBMe

See if you can get Tollden Farms. They are Canadian as well. My guys much preferred the Tollden to the Carnivore when I had them on commercial raw. They have both patties with meat and veggies and patties with meat and botanicals.



HavaBaloo said:


> Sounds like you have a great system Amanda. I haven't been able to try to make my own patties though, it sounds like alot of work.
> 
> Baloo is alot like Dash I think, doesn't care for the commercial raw at all, especially the Urban Carnivore "dinners" with blueberreis lettuce etc in it. I am having to follow more the prey model as well. His favourite by far is the local lamb chops I get, he loves that meat and bone the best.
> 
> Do you give any extra oils, vitamins etc? Baloo usually only gets fish 1 a week and I am wondering if that is enough?


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## ama0722

I have been trying to do fish oil once or twice a week but that is it. I know the commercial has supplements and I have been doing that a bit as well. I also have been putting on some joint supplement on Belle's but I have been doing that for awhile. I don't think it is making a difference but I am being very preventative with her patella and her being Belle. 

Leslie- no kibble at all. I have been feeding them twice a day though- in the morning and when I get home.


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## mellowbo

OK, all ate raw here for breakfast. Will do dinner too today. 2 medallions each for Lulu and Gabby at each meal. 3 for Vinny at each meal. Is that about what you give?
Carole


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## ama0722

I pretty much try to give them whatever they want in the morning except Dora with medallions cause she will gobble them and get sick. 

Belle gets 3.5 a day but she 5lbs and pretty high energy althought she is slowing down a bit. She sometimes doesn't eat them all and sometimes more. 

Dora gets between 4-5. The problem is Dora wants more but she needs to lose a little more weight.

Dash basically gets however much food he wants. He needs to gain weight and he is pretty high energy. However, he is already becoming a fan of real raw and putting up his nose at medallions. So today he had a whole chicken breast with bone for breakfast (5 oz) and then for dinner he had 2-3 ounces of my hamburger without bone medallions but includes organ meat. That is a pretty big meal for Dashie but I am fine with him overeating. He tends to do that one day and then not eat much the next. He just gets so excited for the whole foods now. He will even go into a crate and concentrate on the food and not what I am doing


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## ama0722

This morning the pups had pork neck bones for breakfast so I took a little clip to show you how they eat. This is Dasher's first time having pork bones so I made sure to watch him but you can see more how he eats it. He really uses his back teeth to grind it up. It takes him about 5-10 minutes to eat the entire thing. He really seems to be loving this diet. Cause Dash is the pickiest dog I have ever known. Dash ended up eating all 4 ounces of that bone and all. Both the girls ended up leaving a little bone but made sure to remove all the meat which is fine cause there is a high percentage of bone in this meal. I also have read some dogs require building up muscle strength in their jaws in order to eat all the bone. Tonight they will all get the raw patties with no bone.


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## SMARTY

I am starting my girls on some raw. Galen and Smarty got chicken necks yesterdays. Their reactions were the same as the roast bones. Galen tried to bury hers, Smarty wanted to guard hers so Galen wouldn’t get it. I put them in their crates and both ate the whole thing in a few minutes. I gave the JR a back and she had it gone in no time.


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## Scooter's Family

uke:

I just can't do it!


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## ama0722

Sandi- that is great. I hope it helps with Smarty's allergies too. That is what I saw it do for quite a few dogs that were seeing the homeopath here.

Ann- next time I visit, I will carry a chicken breast with bone in my pockets for the pups  I really find it less gross than cutting up chicken for dinner. They just carry their set of butcher knives in their mouth.

Here is a website that shows different meals for the prey system- pretty graphical but it helps me look at cuts of meat and what they look like. 
http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

This morning was lamb and Dash is officially a raw junky! I kind of feel like an ass for not trying this sooner with him. He has always been such a picky eater but he wouldn't eat Belle's medallions. Dash is absolutely in love with his new meals now and it is funny to watch him go crazy. He is always the last one wanting out of the xpen and will see if there is anything Dora hasn't ate. But the best part is hearing him growl if Belle even looks in his direction. He is always so passive to both the girls but not when it comes to the RMBs. I am already having issues with him not eating the commercial raw. He seems to be choosing a prey diet for himself which is what I was told would happen. He also likes the home made patties so I have been getting a pretty good balance. I am making him eat some commercial raw as well but it usually by evening when he is very hungry.

Dora did get sick yesterday for the first time. She doesn't self regulate how much food she should have (maybe she gets that from her mom!) I put her in the xpen with a RMB and she ate all of it very fast and obviously overate. I am really going to have to watch and portion her out and moderate her better. She used to do the same thing with canned food though so I was expecting, I just got too comfortable and walked away for too long.


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## DanielBMe

Do you mean she threw up? That can happen from time to time when they ingest a large piece of bone when chewing on the RMB. She shouldn't feel sick from the chicken neck though, they are fairly small and easily digestible.

Throw in some Sardines once a week and your dogs will love you even more. Just buy the canned sardines in water. Mix in a little with the food. You could also try some 
Smelt.


----------



## marjrc

Amanda, seeing the clips of Belle and Dash with their RMB's is exactly why I promote this at the store I work at for cleaning dogs' teeth. I try not to mention it often when the owner is around because we don't even sell RMB's, but I can't help it!  I know it works as the best toothbrush in the world for dogs. Seeing how they chew with the back teeth and with the irregular shape of rmb's making the gums and lips push up just proves why it works so well as a toothbrush. I love it ! I got a few customers to go next door to us, at the grocery store, and buy chicken wings. lol I should get a commission... 

I am really not happy about feeding mostly kibble to my guys, but with Ricky's liver issue still unresolved, I am going to experiment with his low protein high quality kibble and we shall see come end of Aug. what blood tests show. Once I'm back from vacation and back from Chicago mid-Aug., I'm going to start them on a homemade diet, mostly cooked, but with rmb's thrown in once or twice a week. I just dont' have time now and with them going to the boarder's soon, there is no way she'd feed them anything 'complicated'. 

I am learning a lot still and thank you for sharing your experience with us. I also enjoy those videos.


----------



## Scooter's Family

Can somebody tell me what an RMB is?


----------



## DanielBMe

Raw meaty bones (or RMBs) are soft enough for the dog to chew up and eat - things like chicken necks, turkey necks, or duck necks, which make up about 60% of your dog’s diet.


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## Scooter's Family

Duh...sorry but I didn't know what you guys meant!

My dogs eat kibble mixed with canned, can I give them a chicken neck or chicken leg occasionally? Would it hurt them? Use as a meal replacement? Or should I just stick with what they're eating now?


----------



## DanielBMe

You certainly can give them a chicken neck or leg occasionally. Definitely start with chicken necks before you move on to anything else. They are easy to eat and digest. Just make sure the kibble and necks are fed at different meals and not together.


----------



## ama0722

Marj- Belle had her teeth issues and that is what started me down the raw road. I know they say you can give your dogs years by good dental health. Dora has perfect teeth- no build up ever. Dash is still very young but I hope he follows in her footsteps as well. 

Sorry Ann  You know what they say about assumptions- hehehe! I was told kibble takes 12 hours to digest where as raw is only 4. So if you were going to give a chicken neck, I would probably do that in the Am and then you can do your kibble for dinner. The other way is what can lead to bacteria issues- raw meat mixed with kibble sitting in the gut= not good. 

P.S. LOVE the new pic!

Daniel- well I don't think it was too big of a piece of bone, I think it was she ate too much about 9 ounces in one sitting (double what she is suppose to get for the day). I have been giving them bigger pieces and taking it away when they ate a good amount.


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## marjrc

Ann, I'll bring some RMB's to share with you in Chicago. You know, kind of like a midnight snack while we sit around in our pj's. No? :evil: lol

I feel better giving my guys wings or small drumsticks because Sammy has often ingested a large part of chicken neck and it's a pain trying to get it out of his throat! I did smash some a while back and so they weren't cylindrical and risky, but it made a lovely mess on my counter and I'm too lazy.


----------



## Sheri

Amanda, I appreciate so much your videos of your little wolves eating away on their bony raw foods! It makes me feel a bit safer about trying it for Tucker...I'd especially like the teeth-cleaning effect, I think.


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## good buddy

I like the idea of giving them something occaisionally, but I haven't had good luck so far. I tried the Natures Variety one night and Rufus got the runs after and Marley really didn't want to eat it...then did, then threw it right back up.  

More recently I gave the kids beef soup bones and Rufus threw up that night. I didn't know to scoop the marrow out and then both boys had a bad round with the runs that lasted several days. My vet said she likes giving dogs raw but slaughterhouses are nasty dirty places. That's why people need to cook the food thoroughly. 

Where do you get the chicken necks, wings, thighs and such from?


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## ama0722

Sheri- I just wanted to show it wasn't how I thought it was going to be either but then again I am just sharing my dogs and each dog is different. I have been giving Belle medallions for a year. She has had recreational raw bones on and off for a few years as well. But seeing them eat the whole bone had me freaked out at first as well. But it is actually pretty simple. I haven't even had one choke a little.

Christy- I had to learn that early on, what goes in with marrow comes out like marrow-lol. I have to watch Dora she will eat medallions way too fast and she will over eat as well and that results in her getting sick and of course it is never outdoors. My other two self regulate and Belle will often stop and walk away when she is full. Dash eats with gusto but hasn't had issues getting sick but he will also skip a meal occasionally after overeating. I do agree about slaughter houses being nasty places as well however, I feel just cooking it, isn't good enough for my pups. And the thing the more I read and learned, I felt I coudln't keep feeding my dogs the same stuff. I pass chicken trucks several times a week down here now and let's just say if that is what they look like in the truck... YIKES (p.s. for those of you on my FB, I posted a pic!) I do want to try to buy locally with some of the great farms we have and my whole foods carries everything I have fed thus far even locally grown eggs. I am trying to do organic as much as possible as well. I have found a lot more turkey necks than chicken necks though (one package of chicken necks). There are also places you can order from online which I will probably try as I don't have anyone locally that will do ground bone. I just went crazy the other day when there was a 99 cent per pound sale at whole foods so it will be awhile.


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## RikiDaisyDixie

*Our meat grinder broke...*

Daniel, what do you use? Ours didn't last very long and broke on chicken...


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## DanielBMe

Don't forget you can also freeze the necks for 2 weeks as well. Freezing helps to kill some of the bad bacteria. All my meat is always frozen first for a couple of weeks before feeding it to my boys. I also add in some apple cider vinegar to the ground meat when making my patties.

Most dogs that are new to eating recreational bones (such as beef necks) will more than likely throw up. It's usually because they've ingested a large piece of bone that upsets their stomach. They have to learn to chew.


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## DanielBMe

I don't use a meat grinder. The place where I buy my ground meat gets it already ground up. Actually, the chicken and turkey contains ground bone and the beef and lamb don't. It's too much of a job if I had to grind my own meat but it would save me money on chicken backs. I have a place where I can buy a 50lb box of chicken backs with necks attached for $10. Doesn't matter since I wouldn't have a place to store all that anyhow.



Rikidaisy said:


> Daniel, what do you use? Ours didn't last very long and broke on chicken...


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## good buddy

Amanda I knew you had the chicken truck on FB but couldn't make myself look LOL! I learned more than I wanted to know when I was making the choice to be vegetarian! 

OK the freezing makes good sense. I'll have to check around and see who is offering what around here. I had checked at Raleys and they don't ever have necks. I was surprised to hear they get all their meat packaged too. They don't even have a butcher in the back. I remember growing up you could always see the butcher in the back at Von's market and you could ask for meat to be sliced any way you wanted it.

I don't know of any local chicken ranches, but there is a big buffalo ranch about a half hour away.


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## ama0722

I have a deep freeze so it definitely helps for storage. Eventually I would love to have one for the dogs (I might need one after my husband comes home to open ours and our freezer!)

Christy- this route will make anyone. I had no idea but seeing is believing! I agree when I first went to the local grocery stores around here- none of them carried anything like this. I found whole foods as a lot of the raw feeders hit it up around here But Bloom gets their meat pre cut as well. I do have a lot of small organic farms near me, I just need to spend a week finding out who carries what and how much.

I heard regular meat grinders wont last with bones, way better to use commercial and a lot more money too?


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## tikaboo

*Raw feeding forum link*

Here is a link to a forum with an incredible wealth of information on the raw diet. 
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/ There are 15000 people world wide on the forum. I have been feeding raw for a few weeks now and Tikas allergy symptoms are gone. After joining you can do a search for other medical issues that may be eliminated or greatly improved by switching to raw.
Some people on the forum related how the have put wanted adds on Craigs List for people/ hunters who need to clean out there freezers of older meat to prepare for the new season and have had success in getting all kinds of free meat. One lady wrote how she got three freezer full of whole chickens. 
Hope this help some to get the answers they may have.


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## good buddy

I don't know if I would ever go full on raw with their diet but I do love the teeth cleanign factor and after seeing how they acted with the soup bones I hate to deprive them of something that seems perfectly natural for them. I was surprised how fast my "pillow dogs" turned into little cannibals! :fear:


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## Beamer

Amanda, Your videos of your crew eating their bones is pretty good.. lol.. I'll have to take some new videos of Beamer eating up his bones.. He's pretty funny wen he eats..

On a side note, I just started feeding Beamer more food. It kinda seemed that his 4oz a day were really not enough, especially with all the summer time exercise he is getting. I have upped him to 5oz a day on weekdays and 6 and weekends. He likes!

Ryan

Ryan


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## ama0722

Tikaboo-that is great and that is what I saw with the allergy issue. I am lurking on several lists right now as well. I don't have dogs with allergy problems so I didn't have that to worry about but I think anyone with allergy issues should really consider raw. 

I am not sure I would trust craigslist for meat myself? I may incorporate some venison once in awhile too though but a lot of people warn to stay away from other game meat. Ideally, I find a great organic farm/butcher locally but I am still working on that. I found one at a farmer's market but $$$. I do understand how raw could be very expensive especially for the big dogs- the homeopath has raised her great danes on it for generations. She has the giant freezers and she actually goes to a butcher and gets an entire cow at a time. On a daily basis for my pups it is just a little over a pound of raw per day. With most of the RMB being 99-1.99 a pound at whole foods, it isn't bad and they give you ratings of where teh food was from/how it was treated, etc.

Christy- it becomes pretty easy and now my pups wont even look at kibble now! I did order metal crates for each of them this weekend just for meal time. To be honest it is less time than I was spending doing medallions for belle, kibble with mix ins for Dash and Dora, etc.

Ryan- let's see. Does Beamer hump his dinner first? I am letting Dash eat whatever he wants basically. I am putting down more than he should have each meal and if he eats it great. He is thin and active and with doing agility several times a week, he is a busy boy. Now Dora is a little more tricky needing too lose a little weight but making sure she gets enough. She may gain back her half pound and that is fine too. And Belle just eats everything but with all her patrolling and policing, she stays pretty thin.


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## Scooter's Family

marjrc said:


> Ann, I'll bring some RMB's to share with you in Chicago. You know, kind of like a midnight snack while we sit around in our pj's. No? :evil: lol


uke:

I don't think it would mix well with my vodka tonic, thanks for thinking of me though Marj!


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## DanielBMe

Did Beamer like the lamb patty?



Beamer said:


> Amanda, Your videos of your crew eating their bones is pretty good.. lol.. I'll have to take some new videos of Beamer eating up his bones.. He's pretty funny wen he eats..
> 
> On a side note, I just started feeding Beamer more food. It kinda seemed that his 4oz a day were really not enough, especially with all the summer time exercise he is getting. I have upped him to 5oz a day on weekdays and 6 and weekends. He likes!
> 
> Ryan
> 
> Ryan


----------



## DanielBMe

Just to be clear on one item that I see frequently. Feeding raw doesn't mean you shouldn't brush your dogs teeth at all. I still brush my guys teeth one or twice a week. Tartar may build up much slower than from feeding kibble but if you don't brush their teeth tartar will in fact build up over time.

I ordered duck for my guys. I pick it up on Thursday. They've never had it so we'll see if they like it. But so far they've had Chicken, Turkey, Beef, Lamb, Bison, Elk and Rabbit (the only one they didn't like so far).


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## SMARTY

Smarty loves her raw now that she knows what to do with it. Galen not so good, I noticed she was picking out the kibble & walking away from the raw. (Ground beef 80/20). I put down her Evo kibble and she acted like we had been starving her. She loves her dry kibble. Not sure how we are going to handle this one.

Amanda. I went to the web sit you posted, http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes, did you check out the raw veggies? I have plenty of that for them. I was putting raw frozen green beans in my little food processor to chop in tiny pieces and work into the raw/dry mix while changing over.

I am going to check on an ethnic meat farm that is in Covington, GA. I was there several years ago & thought it was kind of gross. They had all kinds of meat we do not normally see in our markets. Lots of different nationalities came in from all over Atlanta to buy their meats. I'll let you know what I find.


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## Scooter's Family

That's a good idea for raw feeders Sandi. The ethnic markets may have stuff that regular grocery stores don't have. I have a friend who went into a Latin grocery store and she said she almost got sick when she saw the meat area, she left immediately and never went back! LOL


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## DanielBMe

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes. Not sure why they call it recipes. They are all pretty much the same thing. Grap piece of meat and hand to dog lol. Did you read them? I don't think any of them are technically a recipe lol


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## SMARTY

Daniel, That is the beauty of raw feeding, very simple recipes. Nothing to add. Did you see the veggies.


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## ama0722

Sandi- Dasher eats the recipes daily hence I won't treat the yard  I did throw in a zucchini to my raw patties but I am not sure you need it. Let me know about ATL. We usually head there or CLT for wine so what's a cooler full of goodies once in awhile.

As to the website. She is a pure raw person... you aren't going to find grind your own recipes in what you are thinking- that is the purpose. I really like that but I also have my limits and like to have some ground once in awhile as well. But it can all be changed and modified and adjusted. I have limits to what I can get around here and what I am willing to pay per pound too.

I should have taken pictures but I have a long day and they all ate the mackerel! At first they were a bit unsure but it took Belle tearing in for the other ones to join suit. A face wash was in order after that


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## SMARTY

You come to Atlanta and haven't called. That will never do. Where is CTL?


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## Beamer

Daniel,

Yup, Beamer loved the food you brought him the other day... I let him have all 3.2oz in 1 meal.. lol

Ryan


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## ama0722

Sandi- not recently but I am probably going there in Sept for agility and will let you guys know. Charlotte is CTL sorry


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## Sheri

What part of a chicken wing do you give them? (Safety/choking issues with any of it?)


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## ama0722

Sheri- whole chicken wing and none here. Some dogs are gulpers and some people suggest holding it so they dont go crazy and try to swallow it. Also some people are not huge fans of wings- there are a lot of bone and have small parts to swallow whole as well. Just FYI.


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## DanielBMe

The good thing about feeding sardines or smelt etc is that it's much cheaper than buying salmon oil or the Organic Cold Water Fish Oil I buy. Sardines are less than a dollar a tin. One can a week works great. Although I do have to say that they get fishy breath for a couple of hours afterwards.


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## DanielBMe

ama0722 said:


> Sandi- Dasher eats the recipes daily hence I won't treat the yard  I did throw in a zucchini to my raw patties but I am not sure you need it. Let me know about ATL. We usually head there or CLT for wine so what's a cooler full of goodies once in awhile.
> 
> As to the website. She is a pure raw person... you aren't going to find grind your own recipes in what you are thinking- that is the purpose. I really like that but I also have my limits and like to have some ground once in awhile as well. But it can all be changed and modified and adjusted. I have limits to what I can get around here and what I am willing to pay per pound too.
> 
> I should have taken pictures but I have a long day and they all ate the mackerel! At first they were a bit unsure but it took Belle tearing in for the other ones to join suit. A face wash was in order after that


I always add a couple of zucchini to my raw patties. If you can find green or red dandelion I highly recommend it. I usually add a mix of red and green vegetables. My last batch had Zucchini, Red Pepper, Broccoli, Red Leaf Lettuce, and Bok Choy. They ran out of Dandelion unfortunately.


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## SMARTY

DanielBMe said:


> You certainly can give them a chicken neck or leg occasionally. Definitely start with chicken necks before you move on to anything else. They are easy to eat and digest. *Just make sure the kibble and necks are fed at different meals and not together.*




*Bold is mine* Why not feed Kibble and necks at the same time?


----------



## DanielBMe

Kibble digests at a much slower rate than raw. If you send them down for processing at the same time, the raw food will be trapped with the kibble food and could cause problems with bacteria and digestion.


----------



## SMARTY

DanielBMe said:


> Kibble digests at a much slower rate than raw. If you send them down for processing at the same time, the raw food will be trapped with the kibble food and could cause problems with bacteria and digestion.


Is this any raw meat and Kibble or just the boney parts?

Smarty ate her chicken neck in 2 seconds last night. She gave it back to me on my bed very early this morning.


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## Scooter's Family

Ewww!


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## SMARTY

Scooter's Family said:


> Ewww!


Kind of funny, you should have seen how fast Buddy got out of bed.
he said "what are you doing to our babies?"


----------



## DanielBMe

SMARTY said:


> Is this any raw meat and Kibble or just the boney parts?
> 
> Smarty ate her chicken neck in 2 seconds last night. She gave it back to me on my bed very early this morning.


Yup, any kibble and raw.

Some dogs need to build up the acids in their stomach to properly digest raw depending on how long they've been on kibble. From feeding kibble for so long the acids are weakened. I wouldn't give up on the raw. If you are starting out with chicken necks, try breaking them in half before feeding.


----------



## SMARTY

I mixed 8 lbs of 80/20 ground beef, 1 lb frozen chopped raw green beans, 2 lb Evo kibble and put into 8 oz freezer container. I have been dividing this between the 3 girls for one of their meals. Now I am worried about having the kibble in the mixture. Smarty & Boo are fine with this. Galen still wants her dry kibble back.

I had to make this easy as I am going to the beach with my precious GD for a few days, then to Wales and UK for a couple of weeks and DH will be doing the feedings and he will not hand mix this food. I have to keep it simple for it to stay right on coarse.

I also have 8 oz. packs of frozen turkey and chicken parts.

Should I toss the ground beef mixture?


----------



## Leslie

Sandi~ I've been giving Tori kibble for breakfast (which she usually eats for lunch, lol) Then for dinner, she gets either canned or raw. Maybe that's what you could do for Galen since she's such a kibble lover???


----------



## SMARTY

I don't leave any food down, once they walk away I take it up. Smarty will eat it just to keep Galen for having it. If you want to improve your dogs appetite just get a second dog.


----------



## DanielBMe

SMARTY said:


> I mixed 8 lbs of 80/20 ground beef, 1 lb frozen chopped raw green beans, 2 lb Evo kibble and put into 8 oz freezer container. I have been dividing this between the 3 girls for one of their meals. Now I am worried about having the kibble in the mixture. Smarty & Boo are fine with this. Galen still wants her dry kibble back.
> 
> I had to make this easy as I am going to the beach with my precious GD for a few days, then to Wales and UK for a couple of weeks and DH will be doing the feedings and he will not hand mix this food. I have to keep it simple for it to stay right on coarse.
> 
> I also have 8 oz. packs of frozen turkey and chicken parts.
> 
> Should I toss the ground beef mixture?


Just a couple of things.

If you are simply chopping up the green beans then your Havs aren't actually digesting most of it but simply passing it through. Raw veggies must be pulped for your dog to absorb the nutrients.

Food is expensive so I don't want to tell you to throw it out unless you have very little left. If there are no problems then don't worry about this batch.

If you want to entice Galen, try adding some canned Sardines to her raw meat patty or even some Nupro with maybe 2 tablespoons of hot water. My guys seem to enjoy their food much more when I let it stand for 30 min and then add in some warm water. Since dogs are so scent oriented I think the warm water brings out the odour of the meat.

I also add a sprinkle of Nupro on the chicken necks when feeding. Gives it that extra flavour.

For your ground meat I'd add the following veggies into a food processor. One head of lettuce (leaf, iceberg), Zucchini, Bok Choy, Green Beans. They are all easily found at the grocery store. You can even add an apple if you want. Pulp to a thick soup. Then mix in betwen 12 to 16oz to your 8lbs of meat. Freeze whatever is left over.

That's it. I usually add Nupro and fish oil and lentils but you don't have to do that.


----------



## SMARTY

Daniel thank you, more questions.....

what is Nupro?

when you say "pulp" the veggies, are they cooked or put through a processor?

fyi, iceburg lettuce has no food value at all. why use this?


----------



## DanielBMe

Pulped veggies are raw when put through the processor. As to the lettuce, well I noticed most commerical packaged ones use it. I think it sort of reflects the grass that would be eaten in the wild. It's one of those things, no harm but how beneficial...I just know that on my rotation of veggies, my guys are doing very well.

Nupro is a supplement, see here


> NUPRO is made with fresh quality health food ingredients that are human-grade, not animal-grade. Contains a full range of vitamins, minerals, enzymes, amino acids, and essential fatty acids in their natural raw forms. Whether you use commercial diets, feed B.A.R.F., or cook for your animals, NUPRO is an essential part of your daily nutritional program.
> 
> NUPRO does NOT contain any of the following:
> Wheat, Sugar, Fillers, Preservatives, By-Products, Grains or Corn
> 
> DESICCATED LIVER:The ultimate in palatability! This fresh, natural flavor of real liver is wonderful for the finicky eater because when mixed with water, makes a great gravy that dogs crave. Supplies iron and B vitamins
> 
> NORWEGIAN KELP:A natural seaweed that is a rich source of trace minerals including iodine, which is used for proper glandular function and metabolism. An excellent source of vitamins A, B1, B2, C, and E. These vitamins are beneficial for maintaining proper health and are responsible for the growth of bones, a healthy heart rate, a sound central nervous system, and helping muscles stay firm and strong. Norwegian kelp grows deep in the ocean, mostly in cold waters, so it contains valuable nutrients from the ocean floor. Aside from nourishing the glands, it is beneficial for overall good health. Supports healthy pigmentation and coat highlights.
> 
> MICROPULVERIZED BEE POLLEN:One of nature's healthiest and most powerful 'superfoods.' Bee pollen contains an incredible array of vitamins, minerals, amino acids and enzymes. It's one of the most nutritionally complete natural substances found on earth. Supports a healthy immune system. Keeps healthy hormones in balance. Supports allergy protection.
> 
> IMPORTED YEAST CULTURE:Helps maintain a full and healthy coat which may minimize the occurrence of excessive shedding, hot spots and itchy, dry fur. Provides proteins, zinc and biotin. Best source of B vitamins. Most companies use cheaper brewers yeast which can be a combination of hops, corn, grains, wheat, etc., whatever comes from the brewery. Many animals have grain allergies, and this ingredient may further aggravate an allergy condition. With nutritional yeast culture, it is grown on sugar beets, a veggie source, so NO grains are present at all. Something to think about when reading ingredient labels.
> 
> FLAXSEED AND GROUND BORAGE SEEDrovides essential fatty acids. Most absorbable vegetable fatty acid for the canine. Rich in omega 3 fatty acids, alpha-linolenic acid, fiber and lignans. Helps maintain healthy shiny fur and soft skin.
> 
> LECITHIN: A rich source of choline, which the body requires to make acetylcholine, a neurotransmitter which is essential for normal, healthy nerve and brain function. Supports healthy liver function, too.
> 
> GARLIC CONCENTRATE:Wonderful ingredient that does so much for the body. Garlic contains allicin, a broad-spectrum antimicrobial capable of warding off different types of infection. Supports a healthy immune system.
> 
> LACTOBACILLUS ACIDOPHILUSromotes healthy digestion which may reduce the occurrence of flatulence. Because NUPRO is in a powdered form and not from concentrate, it is easily assimilated into the system and digested with the dog's food. There is no sense in giving an animal this superior product if they don't digest it properly. Also promotes friendly bacteria in intestinal tract.
> 
> CALCIUM CITRATE: Calcium is best absorbed in an acidic environment, hence calcium citrate is the best absorbed supplemental form of calcium---it does not require extra stomach acid for absorption. Intended to provide nutritive support for healthy bones, teeth and nerve function.


----------



## marjrc

I am loving this thread and reading about everyone's experiences. If it weren't for Ricky's liver issues, they'd both be on raw and rmb's. For now, they do eat rmb's once a week or so. I have them on kibble only because it's easiest for the boarder who will be keeping them for 11 days this month. Not many boarders will feed raw in your place! Not to mention have unvaccinated dogs.... but that's a whole other story ! :tape:


----------



## SMARTY

My DH hates the raw, he had the dogs for a few dogs and said it was much easier for him to scoop out some dry and add a little canned. I had the frozen meat in separate container he just needed to pick the beef for breakfast at night, turkey for dinner in the morning, let them thaw. Way too much trouble for him, I'm so mad I could smack him.

This was a trial run for my Wales trip in a few weeks. Smarty got the runs, we went to the vet this morning, nothing wrong other than she probably was stressed by my being gone. Now what am I to do, she cannot go the UK.


----------



## SMARTY

Oh what to do? Smarty is very happy with the raw. No itching. Galen on the other hand hates it. She is barely eating. Boo the JR eats anything.


----------



## Leslie

Sandi~ Sorry to hear about your DH. I bet it's all about what he's used to doing. When we switched, my DH was hesitant but, now, he actually likes feeding the raw better than the kibble. He says it's easier. Go figure?!

Tori is "on again, off again" w/the commercial raw. Some days she can't eat it fast enough and others she just sniffs it and walks away. I thought she may be getting tired of the NV medallions (even though I rotate chicken, lamb, venison), so I bought some Stella & Chewy's. The 1st day she practically inhaled it, since then it's been a crap shoot as to how she'll react.

I also got her some raw chicken thighs which she will only lick a few times before she walks away. Even with me holding them, she won't actually take a bite. She did this with the necks, too. I'm guessing she's not too excited to be eating "prey"... I bet she'd down one of those lizards she's always chasing in the backyard, though. :frusty:


----------



## mellowbo

Finally all three are on raw here and loving it. Gabby will eat hers with a little frost on it but the other two want theirs at room temp so a few seconds in the microwave takes care of that.
Carole


----------



## ama0722

Well I got a great report from my DH while I was gone he had feeding duty 4 times and I was a bit concern. They gobble it all and he couldn't believe how they ate bone and all. Dash prefers the RMBs- he just loves them. But sometimes he overeats and then skips a meal and he did that to Jim when he ate a huge dinner and woudln't touch breakfast. But then that night inhaled dinner. I let Jim know to watch with Dora cause she doesn't seem to have self control and overeats. But we are still having issues where they love to rush into each other's crates so I have learned to crate them then bring the food in. Overall this transition has been smooth and good for all 3. While I don't think Dasher and Belle have any noticeable side effects, we think Dora might be more energetic.


----------



## SMARTY

Dash prefers the RMBs, what is that?

I have been giving them ground beef 80%, chicken necks, chicken legs, ground turkey.
I have to crate them with the legs and necks, Galen just plays with hers and Smarty would eat both. Strange, Smarty has never liked food before, even as large as she is. Now she is so happy at meal time.

Where do you get the medallions? I may have to get on something going totally balanced & easy before I leave, Hubby is not at all happy with the way I am feeding. He gave Galen a hamburger tonight because he thinks she likes her food cooked (she also likes it out of your hand).


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## ama0722

Sandi- sorry that is what you are doing the RMB-raw meaty bones. The medallions are great for husbands who kind of freak out about what to give them. Mine seem to like Nature's Variety over the primal. I am pretty limited here. I also made some myself with just the 80/20 beef and organ meats for days I give RMB with lots of bone. I did that and put them on a cookie sheet and measured one ounce so I saw how much they were getting. I think now I could eye ball it pretty well but it is niice they arne't frozen together and you can grab one at a time.


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## Leslie

I've decided when this bag of kibble runs out (which could take awhile. She gets 1/4 C./day and the bag is 1/2 full), Tori will be going on a 100% raw diet. It will probably end up being mostly commercial, though. I've tried giving her chicken thighs, turkey/chicken necks, ground chicken, ground lamb, and ground beef and she won't eat any of it. But, I'll keep trying. She will chew on the soup bones I got her, but there's not much meat on them. They're more of a recreational thing rather than a meal.


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## ama0722

Leslie- I just now saw this- you will have to let me know how it goes.

This weekend, I talked to a raw buff <BG> at the dog show. He actually told me he thinks the ideal raw diet would be 3 days of just the ground commercial stuff but not of chicken a hooved animal or if you can make it yourself (ofcourse he recommends this but says if you dont have access to a commercial grinder, it is more difficult) and the rest would be filler meat where you can do chicken. He said that is because we have messed with dogs stomachs making them smaller since we eat daily but wolves wouldn't hunt chickens so it is best to have a lot of their diet include hooved animals. So the other days would just be a balance of the 80/10/10. He doesn't do veggies but does tripe about twice a month. It was interesting to talk to him and he asked me to write down what I remember feeding them for a week and he said so far so good. I just do mainly ground beef and lamb cause that is what Dashie loves. I went home with some tripe, some duck necks (they LOVE these!), and some of his premade raw ground beef which I liked it was in 2 ounce tubes. But he told me NV was good but expensive.

So I thought it was me and wasn't gonna post it but Jim also commented so now I feel my feelings are a bit more legit. But Dora's energy has gone up a lot! I think she transitioned and is feeling good now. She is doing a lot more RLH and forces you to play with her all the time now. And Dash is thrilled. However, last night I wanted to throw her some kibble. I played with them for 15 mins but had a lot of reading to do and Dora would not stop with the grumbles. I am having to balance her with food as she still will eat it until it is gone and get sick. She will cry if she finishes hers early and she wants to eat more too. The problem is Dash is fine gorging and skipping a meal but Dora would eat till she pops and so it is a bit harder of a balance. But she is almost back to her puppy energy and tI am loving it for the most part 

On another note, I gave whole fish last night... not sure that will happen often..... EWWWWW fish breath on coated dogs! Even my blueberry facial scrub doesn't get that out. Those are going to have to be reserved for bath only days!


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## DanielBMe

> On another note, I gave whole fish last night... not sure that will happen often..... EWWWWW fish breath on coated dogs! Even my blueberry facial scrub doesn't get that out. Those are going to have to be reserved for bath only days!


That's why I just mix in some sardines into their food. It doesn't stick as bad. Smelt isn't too bad either.


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## SMARTY

I need help fast………..

Where do you buy your Commercial raw? Do you order frozen? We do not have one shop that I can find that carries it. I did order Nupro Canine (Dave uses it) from the Alpha Nutrition Inc. & DoggieFood.com, they have lots of variety so that may be an option. Plus they carry plates to slow down fast eaters, I assume that is what all those plates are for with the holes

I have to do something. DH is so worried about salmonella or whatever else comes from raw meat being in the girls’ long hair and faces he does not want our Grand baby around them and they do love each other. As you know he is not in favor of this feeding at all, plus my leaving for 2 weeks has him saying “kennels aren’t so bad, some of their clients survive or they wouldn’t stay in business”. He is this serious about my home made raw frozen packets.

He has a point as to what is now in their coats, chicken legs in the crates, beef bones on the deck, etc. I am forever cleaning with Clorox, but need a good daily disinfectant for the girls’ faces. What do you use? I have to do something because they are wiping they faces on the furniture, carpets or wherever.

Smarty is eating every bite of the raw with veggies, 3 to 4 oz. That is my only positive, gaining weigh is the negative. Your amounts per feeding?

Galen is not a happy eater now. She eats it because it is all she is getting, but she never acts hungry. She no longer runs to the food bowl like she did when she came to us to eat plain old kibble. Because she had the UK infection too I want her on something that is not a contributing that factor. Now she does not want kibble at all.

Our old JR eats so little now it really doesn’t matter what is in her bowl. 

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.


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## Scooter's Family

Hey Sandi-Not sure what exactly you're looking for but there are two stores near me that carry commercial raw. One is The Pet Basket and it's 5 minutes from my house, you passed it coming to the playdate. Their site is http://www.thepetbasket.com/. The other store is Rucker Pet Supply and it's about 20 minutes north of me on 400, just before the North Georgia Outlets. Their site is http://www.ruckerhorseandpet.com/contact-rucker-feed-pet.html.

Let me know if you're going to visit either store and we can have lunch and let doggies play. :bounce:


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## Leslie

Sandi~ You can use NV's "find a store" feature here. They also list some online vendors here. They list The Dog Spa and The Red Bandanna as shipping from Georgia.

I'm sure if you go to the homesites of other commercial raw providers (Primal, Stella & Chewys, etc.) you'll find similar pages to help you find a local dealer.

Good luck!


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## SMARTY

thanks Ann and Leslie. Looks like the closest is in Stone Mt. the ingredience in the NV has apple and carrotts. 2 of the things I am to stay away fron with UTI. No sugars.


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## ama0722

Sandi- You may just want to call around and find what brands places carry. I was able to find a place that does grooming that carries a lot more than my big pet store locally. It is a little tiny grooming shop in a nice strip mall but they have a freezer and sell NV, Primal, and another one (can't remember). There are also places you can order from but shipping is gonna up the price a lot.

Here is one recommended to me where it is only an 80/10/10 there would be no fruits or veggies. http://www.hare-today.com/ I haven't ordered from them as of yet though. We were trying to get together a group to order a lot at once but I am gonna need to empty my deep freeze first.

This weekend there was a raw place at the local dog show and I bought some of his mix as well which I liked as it came in 2 ounce nuggets which is perfect for a morning meal for my pups. He also had some of the harder to find things like tripe as well. I was surprised to see him at a show but maybe they do shows over your way as well?


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## DanielBMe

That website is very similiar to where I get my stuff heIre in Toronto. Loads of stuff at great prices. If you can get a few people and buy in bulk, that would be fantastic! 

The only problem I have is the huge sizes. You have to thaw portion out and refreeze. The place where I get my stuff comes in 2lb bags which is much easier to use. Although if I had a really good mixer, I'd dump everything in all at once, add my supplements, fish oil etc and mix. Then it's just a matter of portioning and into the freezer. Still a lot of work. I was just talking to another raw feeder and he told me he spends one weekend a month just making all the food for his dogs. He grinds his own stuff, bones included such as chicken backs. Way too much work for me!


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## SMARTY

ama0722 said:


> Sandi- This weekend there was a raw place at the local dog show and I bought some of his mix as well which I liked as it came in 2 ounce nuggets which is perfect for a morning meal for my pups. He also had some of the harder to find things like tripe as well. I was surprised to see him at a show but maybe they do shows over your way as well?


There are a number of shows coming up in August and Sept that I will scoop out. My main quest was to get them changed to something before I leave, DH is being such a baby about the raw.

Time is up so he is just going to have to suck up and do it.

I freeze in 3-4 oz containers, just enought for a meal each. I may have to cut Galen back as she never finishes a meal.


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## ama0722

Okay definitely dont leave the tripe with DH Sandi  I have bought solid gold canned tripe but real tripe is horribly smelly. Definitely like the fish only on bath day and dont touch it with your hands! Maybe the fall playdate, I can bring you an assortment of the premade so you can see what brands you like and would be easiest for DH. I got a new one from teh guy at the show and they are in 2 ounce sticks and I really like those. My is pretty good but prefers giving the RMBs as they tend to like those the most. They can be picky about the premade raw but if they decide to not eat I just put it in the fridge and they get it for dinner and by then they are hungry.

I have really had an easy transition overall. Dora is no longer getting sick and doing better about eating until she is full. Everyone is eating in their kennels now too and I can even leave the door open! It would be between Dash and Dora as to who has done the best with this. Belle is still crazy old Belle. Dash has turned into a dog that likes his food and will steal others food and run into his kennel with it (who would have thought I could train a dog to like their crate!) and Dora's energy has gone up a lot. She is playing more than she ever has before. I haven't really seen a change in Belle from the NV to more of the prey based diet though.

The only thing is I really want a second deep freeze!


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## HavaBaloo

Sounds like everything has worked out great for you Amanda. I have enjoyed reading about your experience. I am in total agreement about the deep freeze, when I come home from the butchers, dh always says... "Jeez, Baloo eats better meat then we do"! LOL!

I still struggle with the fish thing and making sure Baloo gets his Omega, he loves anything salmon and if I try to sneak in some extra fish oil he usually won't eat it unless I hide the pill in some cheese or something.

Do you find any of them picky if it is hot or humid? I find Baloo not eating as much raw as 2 months ago for example. I am wondering if it is the hot weather, even though we have an air conditioner. The only other things I can think of is that he doesn't need as much raw food now that he is almost 1 year. As I understand it, puppies need more for growth then adult, well either that or he is just picky because I give him a variety of different raw.


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## ama0722

Angie- they definitely eat less in the warm weather. Especially Dasher. He likes to munch. I have been taking out more of the little nuggets and giving him a little here and there. They also eat less as they get older for the most part (or should!) Belle really is good about only eating till she is full. Often times she will leave half her food on her plate. I also have the other type- Dora who will eat her food and everyone else and get sick. 

Okay wonder if any of you raw feeders have noticed this. I haven't given them bully sticks. Not cause of the raw but because I forgot where I put them when we moved. I searched for the box because of Casey and put 4 out. My pups who used to be insane about bully sticks, could care less. Casey was in his glory (I am kibble feeding him) but Dash who was normally bully monster, still hasnt touched it!


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## HavaBaloo

That makes me feel better, I thought that might be the case. Some time Baloo is a little piggy and other he just picks.

With regards to the bully sticks, Baloo loves them (although the ones I get are a different brand) he can never get enough, even with the raw bones, he loves them. If I don't give him one one day, he will probably go digging through the dirty laundry looking for Amy's panties (bad boy). Maybe the raw is enough or you could try a different type?


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## DanielBMe

I stopped feeding my guys bully sticks. I found that on occassion it would make them puke because they seemed to strip of the pieces and not fully chew. I stick to the flossies.


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## marjrc

Funny Daniel, because my guys tend to chew off more than they should with the flossies so I avoid those now. The bully sticks (or thin pizzles that I buy) get mushed down as they chew, with no pieces coming off them at all. I like those better for Ricky and Sammy. 

It's interesting, Amanda, that yours aren't as crazy about the bully sticks as they used to be! How nice that Dora is more active! 

I gave mine some chunks of grain-fed veal the other day and they loved it. I still wish I could give them more raw, but with Ricky, I really want to test his ALT in Sept. and see how things are again. I'm more than likely going to feed a cooked homemade diet and rmb's and a pc. of raw now and then.


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## Missy

I love that it has worked out so well for you and yours Amanda. My boys too are doing terrifically on the raw food. I could never do the prey model (but then again I said I couldn't do the NV raw either) But Cash has lost a pound and a half, and has more energy. And Jasper has actually lost a pound and half too and is so much happier and more playful and their coats are great too. And Jasper has less staining. 

Tripe...Ewwwww. solid gold had some dehydrated Jerky like tripe that didn't smell at all.


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## marjrc

.... bumping........... 

How is everyone doing with their raw diets?


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## ama0722

Things have been going great. I have a raw story! Yesterday, I had to drive Dash to the vet for a regular check up. I got there early and decided to stop at the butcher I used to go to. I bought some meat while I was there. I took Dash in quickly and left Belle in the car since it was only a few mins. When I came out, Belle wasn't in the car seat which isnt like her. She was in the back of my SUV but bounced right up front when I opened the door. I assumed she was sleeping back there as I normally have their crates in the back. This morning, I found out what she was doing! Apparently Isabelle decided to help herself to the hamburger and ate through the plastic! I was in a rush yesterday and just threw the entire bag in the deep freeze, this morning I went to get the burgers out and someone had ate through the plastic and helped herself  So I think I can say she likes the raw


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## SMARTY

I’m having very mixed emotions on the raw. Worried they are not getting all the nutrients they may need. I love the stools, hard and dry, easy clean up. Both the girls have gained weight on the few ounces they get each meal.


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## DanielBMe

Well if you are feeding a packaged raw that has a mix of organ meat, muscle meat, bone, vegetables, etc then they would be getting all the nutrients they need. Far more so than with kibble.

If you are making your own, then it depends on what you are feeding.


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## Mraymo

LOL. I would love to meet Belle. I love feisty girls.


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## SMARTY

DanielBMe said:


> Well if you are feeding a packaged raw that has a mix of organ meat, muscle meat, bone, vegetables, etc then they would be getting all the nutrients they need. Far more so than with kibble.
> 
> If you are making your own, then it depends on what you are feeding.


I don't feed packaged raw, I feed raw with 10 % organ, 10% veggies and their Nupro.


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## Beamer

Amanda,

ohhhh... that Belle! Will she ever learn!? lol

Ryan


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## ama0722

I am still doing the store raw 3-4 morning a week. I am usually in a rush in the morning so that is when they get the ground stuff. Dash sometimes is a snob with this and then i put it in the fridge and he gets it when I come home for lunch. He gobbles up my ground but he doesnt really like the premade but when hungry enough, I win 

I just did a full blood panel on him this week and everything came back perfect so it is going well from the inside too 

Today- I am willing to send Belle to anyone who will take her. It is my first full day off in a long time and my first goal was to sleep in-failure already! Belle was convinced Jim was upstairs and wanted to visit him so she barked and ran around the bed like a psycho then got on the edge of the bed to growl and the back yard, etc. I can't yell at her cause if Dash hears my voice, he goes crazy in the morning and is glad I am alive (every morning he does this!) So needless to say, Belle is not going back to bed this morning!!!


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## Mraymo

Enjoy your day off. Maybe you can take a nap later.


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## SMARTY

I'm sure Belle did not want you to run late. You must have forgotten to tell her you had a day off. Have a good time today.


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## marjrc

Belle didn't waste time sneaking some eating in while mommy was busy. LOL Glad to hear Dash's blood panel came back with great results. I'm not surprised. 

What nutrients are you worried your two aren't getting, Sandi?


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## Sandi

*Eating raw food and still always seems hungry*

Hi. I've been ready this forum for a number of monts now and just haven't posted yet. There is so much great information on here! I was wondering if some of you could give me advice on a concern I have. We switched our 2 Hav's over to raw (FreshPet) about 6 months ago. They have always been good eaters but now they scarf it down. They look forward to it so much that our female 'talks' to my husband as he's preparing it every morning.

My question is this - They are on the bigger side of Hav's (femaile 14.4 lbs the male 17.4) and they seem hungry all the time. They have each lost about 2 lbs since we made the switch but I'm concerned that they are getting enough to eat. We feed them 1/2 lb per day with an occasional treat (also raw or veggies). They hang around the kitchen when we're in there hoping to get something to eat. How do I know that they are getting enough?

Thanks for your help.

Sandi


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## marjrc

Hi Sandi,

I tried finding the information on Fresh Pet's site, but couldn't see what they recommend to feed your dog. Does the packaging have that info? I don't know this product so can't help with amounts/weight. sorry ! It does sound like they are hungry, but then again, they are dogs and some dogs are ALWAYS wanting to eat! I have one of those! lol

Maybe someone else here can help ....


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## Sandi

*Fresh Pet Food*

It does have the recommended quantity on the back and lines to cut it and we're giving them what is recommended. I guess they are just enjoying the food. I think we'll try giving them a few more treats during the day for good behavior! Can't hurt to reward good behavior.


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## DanielBMe

Well, typically with raw you should be feeding somewhere between 2-3% body weight factoring in activity levels. My guys are both about 14lbs and get 7oz a day plus some treats. 

The key is to just feel their sides. If you can really feel their ribs, then feed more. If you can't feel their ribs when gently squeezing, feed less. Brando is always hungry. If he could move his bed into the fridge, he would. I feel sorry for him because it seems like he spends his entire day thinking of food. Going for a walk, he keeps his head down scanning the sidewalk for something to eat.


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## marjrc

Well, Daniel, you know how fat Brando got later in his life, so it's a good thing you are watching your Brando's intake!


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## SMARTY

I hope I have found an easy way to feed raw. Amanda posted about some great treats she purchased a dog show from this company. After talking with a local dealer as a trial I bought the 4 lb bag, divided into 2 oz servings. Can you believe that just the right size? Not to have to buy, mix, measure, add supplements&#8230;..Have my DH say he would NEVER prepare my girls food. If this works my life just got better! And the girls love it.

http://www.healthypetdiet.com/meat.shtml


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## DanielBMe

marjrc said:


> Well, Daniel, you know how fat Brando got later in his life, so it's a good thing you are watching your Brando's intake!


LOL I must have missed this post the first time around.


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## marjrc

There is also some great information at this thread: http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?p=318052#post318052

About time, Daniel !! LOL


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