# Slip chain collar?



## Chi-Chi's Mom (Dec 10, 2015)

Chi-Chi is scheduled to start obedience training at a club in our area. In the information email, we are asked to bring a slip chain collar. I'm concerned about placing a chain around her delicate trachea. Should I be?


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yes I would be looking for another trainer. Choke collars are very dangerous.


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## PaulineMi (Feb 5, 2016)

I wouldn't do it. With a trainer wanting choke chain collars I'd be concerned about the training methods used at the club. Motivational trainers use flat collars without any kind of forceful methods. 

Your concerns are well founded and you should look around for a different club.


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## Chi-Chi's Mom (Dec 10, 2015)

Dave and Pauline , Thank you for confirming. I kept thinking I must be missing something since I am a newbie. My mouth dropped to the floor when I read this. They preach the benefits of positive training methods and then I get this??? I am so disappointed. It took weeks to find a club within a 90 minute one way commute. But I will gladly travel further before I will put my baby in a choke collar.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

PaulineMi said:


> I wouldn't do it. With a trainer wanting choke chain collars I'd be concerned about the training methods used at the club. Motivational trainers use flat collars without any kind of forceful methods.
> 
> Your concerns are well founded and you should look around for a different club.


right on Pauline, lets call these tools for what they are , they choke the dog. Good chances are the trainer relies on using punishment .


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

pm me with your zip code i'll take a look for you.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Good for you, Pauline, for standing up for your little girl. NO dog needs to be trained using a choke collar, and any can be damaged by it... even MORE when they are as small as our Havanese. 

I didn't know anything when I got Kodi, and although we NEVER used harsh methods on him, I did train him ON a (flat buckle) collar, keeping it loose as much as I could, considering that I was a newbie too. Do you want to know how many times my girls have had even a LEASH on them during heel work training? ZERO!!! We train almost completely off leash, and they both heel beautifully. We use the leash to get in and out of the building, in and out of the ring, and on casual walks. Never in training. Eventually, they (and I!!!) will need to practice a bit WITH a leash before we start competing. But it will be mostly for me to brush up on leash handling skills, not as any means of control, let alone punishment.


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## PaulineMi (Feb 5, 2016)

krandall said:


> Good for you, Pauline, for standing up for your little girl. NO dog needs to be trained using a choke collar, and any can be damaged by it... even MORE when they are as small as our Havanese. .


Oops...it's Chi-Chi's Mom who stood up for her little girl.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

PaulineMi said:


> Oops...it's Chi-Chi's Mom who stood up for her little girl.


Oops! Sorry! :blush:


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## Boogs (Feb 12, 2016)

Chi-Chi's Mom said:


> Dave and Pauline , Thank you for confirming. I kept thinking I must be missing something since I am a newbie. My mouth dropped to the floor when I read this. They preach the benefits of positive training methods and then I get this??? I am so disappointed. It took weeks to find a club within a 90 minute one way commute. But I will gladly travel further before I will put my baby in a choke collar.


I learned the hard way that just because a trainer says they use positive methods, doesn't mean they actually do... I got ripped off for about $250 by a "positive" trainer who started advertising prong collars about 15 minutes into our first obedience class, and told me to yank my dog around by his leash to get him to stop barking.

If they are already asking you to use a choke collar before your first class... who knows what else they will be teaching. You are definitely doing the right thing!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Boogs said:


> I learned the hard way that just because a trainer says they use positive methods, doesn't mean they actually do... I got ripped off for about $250 by a "positive" trainer who started advertising prong collars about 15 minutes into our first obedience class, and told me to yank my dog around by his leash to get him to stop barking.
> 
> If they are already asking you to use a choke collar before your first class... who knows what else they will be teaching. You are definitely doing the right thing!


Part of the problem is that there is no CLEAR definition of what "positive training is". Even those who use some pretty harsh corrections almost always also use SOME cookies and praise. Even those who SAY they are TOTALLY positive really aren't... Because even NOT giving a cookie when you've set up the expectation that the dog will get them, becomes a "correction". It's a tricky business, and everyone has their own idea of what's OK and what's not.

I would definitely steer clear of someone advocating prong or choke collars, leash jerking, ear pinches, etc. OTOH, these things take place in the real world, and you need to decide what's right for your dog, and advocate for them.

During the school year, I sometimes train with a training club. The people come from a number of different backgrounds, and some are pretty "old school" in their training techniques. There are others that are as close to purely positive as you can get. Sometimes, if Kodi is feeling overwhelmed, he will shut down and go sniff the floor. At the level we are working at, the dogs are always off leash in the ring, so "leash pops" aren't even a possibility. One night, the trainer suggested that when he did this, I should "go get him, and with a cheery voice" take him by the collar and "bounce him" (take his front feet off the ground repeatedly) back to where he should be. I just laughed and said that if I tried that ONCE, Kodi would probably leave the building! :laugh: She respected my wishes, and hasn't suggested that again. So, often, you can STILL learn from people who have some different ideas than you do, AS LONG AS, you have a clear idea what is acceptable to you in training, and have the gumption to (politely) stick up for your dog. If the trainer CONTINUED to insist, FOR SURE I'd find a different place to train.


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## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

In one of the classes I took with Leo the trainer tried really hard to get me to use a choke collar. I stayed with the class but stuck to Leo's buckle collar. Leo learned all the commands and performed beautifully. Most dogs learn best when we reward the behaviors we want to see rather than trying to correct the behaviors we don't want to see. Soft natured dogs like Havanese will often shut down completely with harsher training methods. And I think all dogs learn best when training is fun and includes their favorite rewards.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Pucks104 said:


> In one of the classes I took with Leo the trainer tried really hard to get me to use a choke collar. I stayed with the class but stuck to Leo's buckle collar. Leo learned all the commands and performed beautifully. Most dogs learn best when we reward the behaviors we want to see rather than trying to correct the behaviors we don't want to see. Soft natured dogs like Havanese will often shut down completely with harsher training methods. And I think all dogs learn best when training is fun and includes their favorite rewards.


I agree completely! Kodi hates being wrong SO much, and shuts down so easily, that we often give him "consolation prize" cookies if he's trying hard, but makes a mistake. There is no need for us to "correct" him because he's already too hard on himself. The things he's working on now are so complex that it's easy to get things wrong, and it's REALLY important to me that he keep trying. That's actually MORE important to me than that he get it right. So if he makes a mistake, I don't click, of course, but I'll often go give him a single cookie and a pat, or break him out for some "loving up" before going back to try again. Then when he gets it right, he gets a HUGE reward. Our trainer wants the cookies (they can be tiny) coming, along with genuine and effusive praise for AT LEAST 30 seconds when they've made a real break though. THAT really gets their attention, I'll tell you! They REALLY want to figure out how to make THAT happen again!


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## PaulineMi (Feb 5, 2016)

It sounds like you have an awesome trainer Karen.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

PaulineMi said:


> It sounds like you have an awesome trainer Karen.


I do, Pauline. I've been SOOO lucky. My first trainer teachers beginners and pet people mostly. when I started working on Open level stuff, I started working with the higher level competition obedience trainer at our facility. (that my first trainer works with too) She's really fantastic. She's incredibly insightful, has fabulous timing, is a stickler for details, sees (and hears) EVERYTHING and always, ALWAYS puts the dogs first.

My privates with her are expensive, but I get more out of a one hour private with her than I do out of a 6-8 week course with anyone else.

I've been lucky all the way around with trainers... The person I work with in agility is fantastic too. (and also does obedience, so she brings that lens to her teaching as well.


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## Brooklyn (Sep 3, 2013)

We had a similar situation at puppy kindergarten. Our trainer sent out an email before the first class requiring us to bring the pup on flat buckle collar. I contacted him, letting him know that we would bring him on a harness, as we didn't want to risk a neck injury, or otherwise have to cancel the classes. He wasn't too happy about it, but accepted it. We got approached at the first class by the director of the trainings club. She said that she had heard of us, and said we made the absolute right decision and he should not be on a collar. Our trainer made a couple snarky comments throughout the classes that we politely ignored.

Hope you can find a great trainer who let's you use a harness.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Brooklyn said:


> We had a similar situation at puppy kindergarten. Our trainer sent out an email before the first class requiring us to bring the pup on flat buckle collar. I contacted him, letting him know that we would bring him on a harness, as we didn't want to risk a neck injury, or otherwise have to cancel the classes. He wasn't too happy about it, but accepted it. We got approached at the first class by the director of the trainings club. She said that she had heard of us, and said we made the absolute right decision and he should not be on a collar. Our trainer made a couple snarky comments throughout the classes that we politely ignored.
> 
> Hope you can find a great trainer who let's you use a harness.


There is a big difference between using a flat buckle collar for training and using a choke chain. While I am a strong believer in harnesses for casual walks, I have NO problem in training in a flat buckle collar, because I ve absolutely NO intention of pulling on it or allowing the dog to pull on it. As I've said before, my puppies rarely even have a leash attached to their collars during training... So how can the collar harm them?

If you have any intention of competing, even at the lowest levels, you must show your dog on a a collar, not a harness. So there's no real reason that they shouldn't wear one in training. Again, it is NEVER used as a weapon or "correction device" if it is used properly.


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## articshark (Apr 4, 2016)

My training facility has no problem with walking a dog in a harness. In fact, they recommend the Sensation harness for all the dogs that need one. They do insist on a collar during class. One of the exercises we do is to make sure your dog is not hand-to-collar shy. This is in case your dog gets away and won't shy away from a hand reaching for their collar to find out who the dog belongs to. It's also used to hook a finger under and run around on recalls so the dog doesn't shy away from a hand going near their face. The reasons put forth by my training facility made sense to me. Because if, god forbid, Java ever did get loose, I want her to think that having someone look at her collar for info is a good, even GREAT, thing.


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## Chi-Chi's Mom (Dec 10, 2015)

krandall said:


> There is a big difference between using a flat buckle collar for training and using a choke chain. While I am a strong believer in harnesses for casual walks, I have NO problem in training in a flat buckle collar, because I ve absolutely NO intention of pulling on it or allowing the dog to pull on it. As I've said before, my puppies rarely even have a leash attached to their collars during training... So how can the collar harm them?
> 
> If you have any intention of competing, even at the lowest levels, you must show your dog on a a collar, not a harness. So there's no real reason that they shouldn't wear one in training. Again, it is NEVER used as a weapon or "correction device" if it is used properly.


I am so glad you clarified this. I have been in touch with a different trainer and she asked that we use a flat collar. We are going to sit in on a session (without Chi Chi) to observe before making a commitment. If I see anything I don't like, the search will continue. In our last class there was a lot of off leash and she did well in class. But she will still pull on walks to chase blowing leaves.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Chi-Chi's Mom said:


> I am so glad you clarified this. I have been in touch with a different trainer and she asked that we use a flat collar. We are going to sit in on a session (without Chi Chi) to observe before making a commitment. If I see anything I don't like, the search will continue. In our last class there was a lot of off leash and she did well in class. But she will still pull on walks to chase blowing leaves.


Yes, and in those instances, she should DEFINITELY be in a harness. Kodi is a highly trained obedience dog, and on casual walks, he wears a harness, even though he RARELY pulls.


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## Layla's Mom (Feb 1, 2016)

I also use a flat buckle collar for training/completion but definitely use a harness for casual walks and going out and about! You never know if even a reliable dog will try and chase after something, or heaven forbid, have to lift them up quickly because a reactive dog is approaching. Layla's little neck is so sensitive and she chokes very easily. I was taking an Open Ob class a couple months ago, using a flat, leather buckle collar. We were practicing out of site down/sit stays. We were all in a conference rm except for the instructor and one lady who's dog wasn't ready for out of site downs yet. Layla apparently sat up from a down and the instructor went over to her and jerked down "hard" on her collar as a correction, then tried to get her to down again. Layla was frozen and wouldn't do what she said (she was scared to death, I've never even yelled at her!). We all came out from our room and the owner that was in the ring told me "discreetly" what had happened. I was livid!! I just took Layla outside and took a walk and tried to calm her and get her confidence back. This instructor has been doing obedience for over 30 yrs, but with GS dogs. Big Difference! I now have a dog that is not as confident and cowars when she's unsure. I know we'll work through it, but here I thought I was doing everything right and things still can happen! I now go around a corner during long downs, so I can see her at all times and yes, I continued the class. Even though this instructor uses harsher training methods there is a world of info to be gleaned from people like that! You just have to advocate and listen to your gut at all times with these little guys! Good luck and your instincts are spot on!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

[ IMG]

There is nothing to see here you may go about your business as normal


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Layla's Mom said:


> I also use a flat buckle collar for training/completion but definitely use a harness for casual walks and going out and about! You never know if even a reliable dog will try and chase after something, or heaven forbid, have to lift them up quickly because a reactive dog is approaching. Layla's little neck is so sensitive and she chokes very easily. I was taking an Open Ob class a couple months ago, using a flat, leather buckle collar. We were practicing out of site down/sit stays. We were all in a conference rm except for the instructor and one lady who's dog wasn't ready for out of site downs yet. Layla apparently sat up from a down and the instructor went over to her and jerked down "hard" on her collar as a correction, then tried to get her to down again. Layla was frozen and wouldn't do what she said (she was scared to death, I've never even yelled at her!). We all came out from our room and the owner that was in the ring told me "discreetly" what had happened. I was livid!! I just took Layla outside and took a walk and tried to calm her and get her confidence back. This instructor has been doing obedience for over 30 yrs, but with GS dogs. Big Difference! I now have a dog that is not as confident and cowars when she's unsure. I know we'll work through it, but here I thought I was doing everything right and things still can happen! I now go around a corner during long downs, so I can see her at all times and yes, I continued the class. Even though this instructor uses harsher training methods there is a world of info to be gleaned from people like that! You just have to advocate and listen to your gut at all times with these little guys! Good luck and your instincts are spot on!


I would have been livid too!!! I think you handled it right (not throwing the baby out with the bath water, but continuing to learn what you can from the instructor, while still protecting your girl!) but not even GSD's need to be corrected harshly. They MAY be able to "take it" better, but they shouldn't have to. Worse, if you make a GSD fearful, you often get fear aggression, which makes them a dangerous dog to others. I don't think anyone should do it to ANY dog, but it's a stupid thing to do to a dog that's not your own. Kodi is hard enough on himself. If anyone did that to him, it would be game over.


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## Layla's Mom (Feb 1, 2016)

So true on the fear agression with harsh training styles! As I was typing and reliving the experience, I kinda got angry. I have had some incidents lately with her being super timid in ring situations. Will never know for sure if it was that one incident or not. But this weekend I had a hard time getting her into the ring for our rally run. The judge actually told us to go out and start over. This was the right thing to do as she unfroze and worked great. This timid thing is new (she's always been so outgoing and relaxed) and I don't want her to have ring fright. I wasn't gonna go to rally class on Monday night (I was pooped out from show weekend), but kept thinking that getting her to her home ring asap to give her a good positive run through, was the best to build her confidence. She was super confident and happy, no timidness, so I felt better after that. It just takes one negative association! We had one class left after the incident and Layla wouldn't even go near that side of the Ob ring without coaxing, and even then she was stiff and wide eyed. We aren't taking any Ob classes at this time. Though this particular instructor knew the sport of Ob, I will be vetting my instructors better going forward.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Layla's Mom said:


> So true on the fear agression with harsh training styles! As I was typing and reliving the experience, I kinda got angry. I have had some incidents lately with her being super timid in ring situations. Will never know for sure if it was that one incident or not. But this weekend I had a hard time getting her into the ring for our rally run. The judge actually told us to go out and start over. This was the right thing to do as she unfroze and worked great. This timid thing is new (she's always been so outgoing and relaxed) and I don't want her to have ring fright. I wasn't gonna go to rally class on Monday night (I was pooped out from show weekend), but kept thinking that getting her to her home ring asap to give her a good positive run through, was the best to build her confidence. She was super confident and happy, no timidness, so I felt better after that. It just takes one negative association! We had one class left after the incident and Layla wouldn't even go near that side of the Ob ring without coaxing, and even then she was stiff and wide eyed. We aren't taking any Ob classes at this time. Though this particular instructor knew the sport of Ob, I will be vetting my instructors better going forward.


I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is what caused her ring shyness, especially if she hadn't been that way before. Havanese are smart and they learn fast. Sometimes it only takes one time. And, of course, she DIDN'T learn what the woman was trying to get across with her harsh methods. She just learned "Bad things can happen in here... I'd better be wary!" 

I think you are doing exactly the right thing getting her back in the ring, BUT making SURE she has positive experiences. I LOVED the way your judge handled her initial fearfulness at the trail. It was obviously just what she needed to get her confidence back. It ended up being a really positive experience for her! When you start practicing stays with her again, What I would do, I she were mine, is first do Novice style, in sight stays, so she becomes confident just being there, in that line of dogs. Then ask someone else to stay in the ring with you, (preferably someone she doesn't know) and have that person intermittently go in and feed her in position (assuming she has stayed put) Eventually, when you are working on out of sight stays, do the same thing. Have strangers go in and feed her, while reminding her to stay. (whether she needs it or not) Then, when the judge and steward (stranger, usually) are in the ring, instead of worrying when one of them might come and grab her, she'll be wondering if one of them might come and reward her for being a good girl and holding her stay.


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## Layla's Mom (Feb 1, 2016)

krandall said:


> I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is what caused her ring shyness, especially if she hadn't been that way before. Havanese are smart and they learn fast. Sometimes it only takes one time. And, of course, she DIDN'T learn what the woman was trying to get across with her harsh methods. She just learned "Bad things can happen in here... I'd better be wary!"
> 
> I think you are doing exactly the right thing getting her back in the ring, BUT making SURE she has positive experiences. I LOVED the way your judge handled her initial fearfulness at the trail. It was obviously just what she needed to get her confidence back. It ended up being a really positive experience for her! When you start practicing stays with her again, What I would do, I she were mine, is first do Novice style, in sight stays, so she becomes confident just being there, in that line of dogs. Then ask someone else to stay in the ring with you, (preferably someone she doesn't know) and have that person intermittently go in and feed her in position (assuming she has stayed put) Eventually, when you are working on out of sight stays, do the same thing. Have strangers go in and feed her, while reminding her to stay. (whether she needs it or not) Then, when the judge and steward (stranger, usually) are in the ring, instead of worrying when one of them might come and grab her, she'll be wondering if one of them might come and reward her for being a good girl and holding her stay.


Thank you so much, Karen. That is such good advice! I never would have thought to have a stranger feed her during her stays. No one over here has ever suggested that (that I've seen). I will do that (have someone go back to her and reward for good stay, then tell her stay and leave again). But your approach does two things-it will help her gain confidence from her incident and it will make her more comfortable being in the ring with the judge/strangers. I love it, thanks again!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Layla's Mom said:


> Thank you so much, Karen. That is such good advice! I never would have thought to have a stranger feed her during her stays. No one over here has ever suggested that (that I've seen). I will do that (have someone go back to her and reward for good stay, then tell her stay and leave again). But your approach does two things-it will help her gain confidence from her incident and it will make her more comfortable being in the ring with the judge/strangers. I love it, thanks again!


Thanks, but I can't take the credit... My instructor was the one who started doing this with Kodi. She actually goes one step further with him... If he gets up, she GENTLY gets him back in position (he rarely moves, just changed position) and feeds the dog NEXT to him that remained in position. You should have seen the look on Kodi's face when it dawned on him that HE wasn't getting the cookies because he stood up! :laugh: Then she'd make sure to go back and give him cookies again when he was holding his stay. The problem with this second part is that if you don't have someone with IMPECCABLE timing, it can CAUSE them to stand up. I tried getting friends to help me with it, but found it just did;t work the way it did with my instructor.


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