# Questions about curly coat



## Chasing Mayzie

Hi! I do not have my Havanese yet, and I am still learning a lot about the breed, I read that there are 3 coats - shorthaired, curly, and wavy. I know I don't want a short-haired "shavanese", but the picture I saw of the curly-coated dog was actually very cute. I am wondering why breeders are breeding away from it. I have read a lot on this forum about the extra grooming required for curly, and I have read a lot on the internet (mostly complaining from groomers!). Since I am willing to pay a groomer regularly, and I am willing to comb him/her out once or twice a day, is there really a big deal? Frankly, it looks like a poodle coat, and those aren't super prone to tangle. Why is the Havanese curly something that good breeders are breeding away from?

I am not questioning the logic...I just wanna learn.

I am attaching a photo that Mr. King posted a while back just to show a good example of the curly coat I've seen. If I'm violating copyright or something, please tell me!


----------



## Chasing Mayzie

Here's a picture that more represents what I would think of as being "curly". Is this actually "wavy", and the coat that is desired? I think it is pretty when it has a little body in it, but obviously I don't want anyone thinking it's a poodle mix or something!


----------



## Heather's

My first Havanese Sparky had a curly coat. He had very soft curls, not like a poodle. He looked cute in a puppy cut. My boy Scout has a thick soft wavy coat. I keep it on the long side, so it is higher maintenance. Truffles has a silky coat with a slight wave. They all require brushing and combing daily to prevent mats. I know there our some here that don't need to brush and comb daily. Unfortunately I have found it necessary because my two have a tendency to develop mats if I miss a day. It's important to comb out all the mats before having it groomed. I learned the hard way with Sparky!


----------



## KarMar

The Havanese standard calls for a long, abundant, silky, and *wavy* coat. To not breed away from the curly gene would be breeding away from the standard, something a reputable breeder would not do.

To tell whether the dog in the second photo you posted has a wavy or curly coat is hard to tell given how young that puppy is. A good Havanese coat will have body, like you mentioned, but should have a slight wave...nothing that could be considered curly.


----------



## krandall

Username609 said:


> Hi! I do not have my Havanese yet, and I am still learning a lot about the breed, I read that there are 3 coats - shorthaired, curly, and wavy. I know I don't want a short-haired "shavanese", but the picture I saw of the curly-coated dog was actually very cute. I am wondering why breeders are breeding away from it. I have read a lot on this forum about the extra grooming required for curly, and I have read a lot on the internet (mostly complaining from groomers!). Since I am willing to pay a groomer regularly, and I am willing to comb him/her out once or twice a day, is there really a big deal? Frankly, it looks like a poodle coat, and those aren't super prone to tangle. Why is the Havanese curly something that good breeders are breeding away from?
> 
> I am not questioning the logic...I just wanna learn.
> 
> I am attaching a photo that Mr. King posted a while back just to show a good example of the curly coat I've seen. If I'm violating copyright or something, please tell me!


They breed away from it because it is an incorrect coat, just as a completely straight coat (like a Maltese) would be. And even the curls are NOT like a Poodle. The hair of a poodle is much coarser, which means that it's less prone to matting.


----------



## krandall

Username609 said:


> Here's a picture that more represents what I would think of as being "curly". Is this actually "wavy", and the coat that is desired? I think it is pretty when it has a little body in it, but obviously I don't want anyone thinking it's a poodle mix or something!


Puppy coats vary a lot, both from one another AND from the adult coat in the same dog. That puppy looks like a pretty "normal" Havanese puppy, who is likely to have a pretty normal coat when he grows up. I'll post a couple of photos of Kodi as a puppy. He had a very straight coat in comparison to his litter mates. As an adult, he has a gorgeous, full, wavy coat as you can see from his adult photos. Some Havanese have more undercoat than he does and that is also correct. But a curly coat is not.


----------



## Dee Dee

BABY KODIIIII!!! <3

Interesting about the coats Karen what kind of coat would you say Sophie has? Not curly or wavy it's more fly-away


----------



## Chasing Mayzie

KarMar said:


> The Havanese standard calls for a long, abundant, silky, and *wavy* coat. To not breed away from the curly gene would be breeding away from the standard, something a reputable breeder would not do.
> 
> To tell whether the dog in the second photo you posted has a wavy or curly coat is hard to tell given how young that puppy is. A good Havanese coat will have body, like you mentioned, but should have a slight wave...nothing that could be considered curly.


Ohhh, I didn't realize that. I thought all 3 were accepted varieties, just some were preferred more than others. Yes, I understand now. Thanks!


----------



## krandall

Dee Dee said:


> BABY KODIIIII!!! <3
> 
> Interesting about the coats Karen what kind of coat would you say Sophie has? Not curly or wavy it's more fly-away


She's definitely not curly in expression. Whether she CARRIES the curly gene is guesswork, unless your breeder tests for it. Pixel's coat is very similar to Sophie's, and we KNOW she doesn't carry the curly gene because the Kings test for it. ...And thank HEAVENS!!! If they had the consistency of coat that Sophie and Pixel do and it was curly, they would be one SOLID mat!!!

Here are photos of Pixel as a very young puppy and in full coat, just about 1 year old, just before I cut her down. In this photo you can see for sure that she's not curly. She has a tighter "crimp" to her waves than Kodi does, but it's still waves, not curls. The curlies typically look very similar to a Bichon Frise.


----------



## Dee Dee

Pixel is so much like Sophie! So is little black Owen, could coat texture tend to be similar in like colors I wonder?


----------



## KarMar

​


Dee Dee said:


> Pixel is so much like Sophie! So is little black Owen, could coat texture tend to be similar in like colors I wonder?


Nino's black hair is about an inch shorter than his white on his body. It's also a little coarser. His brother has quite a bit more black than he does, and his coat appears shorter and coarser than Nino's in general. Nothing scientific, just an observation of made on the pair of them.


----------



## Dee Dee

That is very interesting!!! Sophie doesn't have enough white on her to be able to tell since it's only on her beard can't guage it against the black but would very curious to hear if others notice that with their black and whites.


----------



## krandall

Dee Dee said:


> Pixel is so much like Sophie! So is little black Owen, could coat texture tend to be similar in like colors I wonder?


But I also know some black dogs with gorgeous, silky, shiny coats. (Pixel and Kodi's sire is one of those)


----------



## krandall

KarMar said:


> ​
> Nino's black hair is about an inch shorter than his white on his body. It's also a little coarser. His brother has quite a bit more black than he does, and his coat appears shorter and coarser than Nino's in general. Nothing scientific, just an observation of made on the pair of them.


Kodi black hair grew slower than the white too. The same is happening with Panda. But both of them have shinier, slicker feeling hair, while Pixel's is very soft, fluffy and downy feeling. I want to say that Kodi's and Panda's is coarser, but that's not right, because their's in't coarse at all, it's just that Pixel's is SO much finer.


----------



## Tom King

The puppy in post # 2 does not have a curly coat. The curls on a curly coat are much tighter, as in the picture in the first post. There is a genetic test for coat type. A curly coat does require a copy of the curly gene to be passed by both parents in Havanese for the individual to have a curly coat. We (Pam and I) think that it has a modifying effect as well, if one parent is a carrier, but not always. The picture of Posh's coat in one of Karen's posts comes from parents that neither were carriers.


----------



## krandall

Tom King said:


> The puppy in post # 2 does not have a curly coat. The curls on a curly coat are much tighter, as in the picture in the first post. There is a genetic test for coat type. A curly coat does require a copy of the curly gene to be passed by both parents in Havanese for the individual to have a curly coat. We (Pam and I) think that it has a modifying effect as well, if one parent is a carrier, but not always. The picture of Posh's coat in one of Karen's posts comes from parents that neither were carriers.


But I'm pretty sure that Tibi doesn't carry curly either, right? And Pixel's hair is not like Posh's at all. Her's is very soft, fluffy, light and "fly-away"... almost downy. (see her photo above, when she still had long hair) So I think there have to be other coat modifying genes that we don't know about yet too.


----------



## Tom King

Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot there that is not understood yet.

The girl in the picture in the first post in this thread is Nina. She was the last curly puppy we produced back before the testing became available. Neither parent was curly, but obviously both were carriers. 

She belongs to some great friends of ours here on the lake. Her hair stays in a very short puppy coat, and she goes in and out of the lake almost every day. She comes back here to stay when her owners need to get away to look after their aging parents, or other reasons. They have a lot of large parties at their house, and Nina is known, and loved, but a Lot of lake people here.


----------



## Pucks104

I think Rexy's coat must be like Pixel's - very soft, fine and downy and definitely mats this summer as he's blowing coat. I think he's cute in full coat but he's also quite small. Just barely 8.5 inches at the shoulder and 9 lbs or so at almost a year. I don't think he'll get any bigger as this has been his size for a couple months now. I have come close to cutting his coat a few times though I keep thinking that if I can get through coat blowing maybe his adult coat will have more substance. He's quite tolerant of comb outs and ponytails but the coat is so fine that it takes time and line combing is a challenge and a necessity. We are vacationing at the beach soon and I am not sure how much time I want to spend combing sand out of his coat!


----------

