# Grooming NIGHTMARE



## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

I sprayed Lilly with Eqyess Avacodo Mist and for the first few days brushing was sorta difficult but not bad. Her hair felt thicker than normal. Well I missed a night and when I starting brushing her I noticed a lot of matts not huge ones but a lot of small ones. Well she was getting upset with me and I was was like WT- is going on. I finally decided to shampoo her well this is what I found.

She is covered in small matts. Can her coat be recovered?
Why would a detangler do this? 
Is it because her coat is cottony? 
I will probably never use a leave in detangler again. I soaked her in conditioner and tried to brush it thru but it hurt her. What should I do?
Does the CC staggered comb fix this type of stuff?


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Wow, Katrina. It looks kind of like she is developing cords. This isn't probably what you wanted though. 

I'm not quite sure what I'd do. If she can tolerate it, you could try to demat her, one mat at a time. Or you could just shave her down and start all over again. 

I feel for you! :hug:


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

Hmmm....are you using a brush or comb usually on her? I guess I would just start trying to work them out, but for me it works best if Posh is dry. Best to you. I also use a buttercomb to get out Posh's mats, but I'm lucky as she hardly ever has any.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Poor Lily. I'm not sure what I'd do Katrina. If the mats aren't too tight and too close to her skin I might try working a few out each evening. If they are tight I'd probably put her in a puppy cut and grow her out again. I guess it depends upon how much you and she can take. 
I've had my girls clipped short due to mats several times, especially when they were between 10 months and 2 years old. Now that they are 3 and 4 they don't mat as much.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Yikes Katrina, I would dry her as much as possible and start one matt at a time. Riley is very cottony and I find his coat does much better if I use no leave in products. I actually find the leave in products can actually attract dirt making them matt more. Good luck and dont be afraid to shave her down and start over if you have to. You could just cut the matts out then shave her to about 1" or 2" rather than down to the skin.


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

I normally start with the brush then go to the comb. I only brush her dry. I am so frustrated right now, I am dreading it. I may just end up cutting them out some what and then trim her to about 2" Her coat was just starting to grow out from the summer short cut I gave her now this. I just want to cry.


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

Does the CC staggertooth comb work on this type of situation or just the daily little knots?


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

Katrina I do the opposite-comb than finish with a brush. Maybe this would work better for you? I am not sure. Best to you and your sweet girl.


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## LuvCicero (Mar 31, 2008)

Bless your heart. I'm sure you are ready to cry. Cicero is 10 months and just beginning to have a few small mats and I'm afraid it will get worse. We have had a relative here visiting for a couple of months with her puppy and boy has Cicero's coat took a beating. Bad feeling when we are trying to grow hair...then bang.

I took the below pic very fast but it will show you my way of dealing with mats. I once had a dog that I worked on all day, off and on. First the dog needs to be dry. Then I use open scissors and insert the point into the mat and using a sawing motion pull out away from the skin to break through the mat. You may have to do it a couple of times in each mat if they are larger. Then I use the below comb to pick, starting at the end and working toward the skin. This keeps the coat from looking cut...but will be some thinner.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do. It will grow back, thank goodness!!


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

If you can't mske any progress on those mats, then I suggest shaving her down. I know it is a last resort, but it will save your sanity and not stress Lily. I had to shave Kodi down when he was 6 months, so I'm saying this with some experience. I was much better prepared (and so was Kodi) the second time he blew coat.


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

Oh we know all about shaving down and I am trying NOT to have to do that. Bad experience with PetSmart and blowing coat the first time. Lilly is 22 months so I don't think she is blowing coat I think that is over with. It only happens twice right?

Dale your method is just like mine except I use a regular comb. I will most like do that as much as possible and then depending on what it looks like and how she does trim her down SOME she is just now getting back to that fluffy puppy phase. After I dried her you couldn't tell she was a matted mess she looked so fluffy and felt so soft. BUT alas the work shall began. Wish me look and tough skin for dear Lilly.


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

Leeann said:


> Yikes Katrina, I would dry her as much as possible and start one matt at a time. Riley is very cottony and I find his coat does much better if I use no leave in products. I actually find the leave in products can actually attract dirt making them matt more. Good luck and dont be afraid to shave her down and start over if you have to. You could just cut the matts out then shave her to about 1" or 2" rather than down to the skin.


 What products do you use on Riley's coat?


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I'm going through a long nightmare of a second coat blowing with Milo. His matts are the size of New Jersey and it's been torture trying to take them out. I'm stubborn though and before I give in and have him sh-sh-sh-shaved, I'm trying to take them out one by one over a period of time. Aside from the obvious nightmare, he looks like an absolute blimp and incredibly unkempt, totally not fitting with his personality.

I can certainly empathize with the problem.


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

They blow coat twice???? Ugh. We had to shave Gryff down completely this summer. I don't want to do it again.

Katrina - it looks like you stole my dog! Gryff looks just like that.


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

ivyagogo said:


> They blow coat twice???? Ugh. We had to shave Gryff down completely this summer. I don't want to do it again.
> 
> Katrina - it looks like you stole my dog! Gryff looks just like that.


 Yes they blow twice. I hope Gryff doesn't have matts galore like this.


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## EstrellaVila (Nov 30, 2007)

Katrina, 

HOLY MOLY!!

Before the avocado mist ordeal were you brushing her out and combing her in layers? You cant just do the top and call it done, you need to be sure your doing every single section. I try to break it up into sections/layers (like when you blow dry your hair straight at the salon). This will get all the loose hairs/etc.

Second, how are you shampooing her? Do you think you might have created the mats in the tub by rubbing the hair in circles/etc? Sometimes they get matted in the shower no matter what, but it helps if you think about how your washing the hair. 

If it was in fact the mist, definetly dont use it on her. Does this product attract dirt which caused the mats?

I would try to brush out what you can first (gently) then use the comb to slowly break up the mats. You can also cut through the mats by getting a sharp pair of hair cutting scissors and sliding the blade in the direction from the skin to the end of matts. She might have too many for this...

To save hair you could also try using a conditioner with silicone in it to detangle her, like Pantene. That will make the hairs more slippery and help you get some of them out in the tub with underwater brushing. 

You are going to have a few hours of work ahead of you if you want to save that hair. Good luck and let me know if you need moral support!


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

EstrellaVila said:


> Katrina,
> 
> HOLY MOLY!!
> 
> ...


Yes I was brushing in sections. The mats were there BEFORE the bath I just didn't realize how many there were. I belive the mist DOES attract dirt and I will NOT be using it again.

Thanks for the idea about useing Pantene and brushing UNDER water but man that is a lot of water to run in the tub shall I just take a bath with her? I will try it tomorrow.

Now for the MORAL support how about some actual support aka help.ound: I know your in California and I am in TN but wouldn't you like to take a trip to the east coast side? ound:


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Katrina,
It will take some time, but start by laying her on one side and working your way from the bottom and going up to the top. Also, DON'T bathe her in anything else until you get all those out. Be sure you are going to the skin. Hold the mat with one hand behind where you will first comb that one mat always working from the end to the skin. This way, you won't be pulling on her skin and hurting too much. Also, be sure to pull apart the mat with your fingers first before combing it as that will loosen it up some. Using those types of products typically seems to attract dirt and don't really help unless you are using it sparingly and combing it out right away and then bathing the dog afterward.

When you bathe a dog with mats, it tends to "set" the mat and make it worse no matter what product you use.

Good luck,



Lilly's mom said:


> Yes I was brushing in sections. The mats were there BEFORE the bath I just didn't realize how many there were. I belive the mist DOES attract dirt and I will NOT be using it again.
> 
> Thanks for the idea about useing Pantene and brushing UNDER water but man that is a lot of water to run in the tub shall I just take a bath with her? I will try it tomorrow.
> 
> Now for the MORAL support how about some actual support aka help.ound: I know your in California and I am in TN but wouldn't you like to take a trip to the east coast side? ound:


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## ECudmore (Jun 5, 2007)

Rcaquet has a cottony curly coat and mats. I brush him -in sections from the skin out.
Then I use the buttercomb which helps to find the missed mats.
I brush and comb him before bathing. I then blow him dry working from the skin out, 
it takes two hours . 
I wish I knew a quick way to de-mat a dog.
Elayne and Racquet ( P.S. who is large-22 lbs.)


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## Elaine (Jan 17, 2007)

Katrina,
Kathy is right the more you get those mats wet the worse it will be. I bought a dog that had not been combed in 4 months and thank god he also wasn't bathed in that amount of time. It was like he had cotton balls all over his entire body. You can do it, it took me almost a full week of working on one mat at a time the way that Kathy told you start at the end of the mat holding it by the part close to the skin and work towards your fingers. As you get through some of the smaller mats you will get better at it and you will find they work out much faster as you go along. Always comb you dog and never bath it with mats in it because that sets them in even more. If I lived closer I would do it for you but by the time you are through you will be an expert. You don't have to take any of the coat off you just have to be patient. I would also suggest that if you have someone else in the house that they pet and console Lilly while you are doing the work. She won't be happy but take your time and know that it will be over with by next week if you are persistant. Good luck and keep us posted on each section you get done, the time will go by quickly.


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

Kathy and Elaine

I remember getting matts out of Lilly's coat when she was blowing coat the second time and they were huge every night close to the skin. So I guess this won't be THAT bad. It is just that they are everywhere. Is there a silicone spray I could use on the matts as i work on them? Espirita's idea sounds like it would work but I do understand about the mats being set in. Won't the mats get larger if not done pretty much all at once?


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## arlene (Jul 28, 2007)

My Javi has a cottony coat . . . I had some pretty tough matting issues when he was blowing coat. I live by a rotating tooth comb - and cheap baby powder with a high silicone content. Work in small sections and take breaks.

I have also had some success with a product called "Cowboy Magic" . . . it's a gel so it is fairly messy but I do use it on small sections to loosen mats. It works pretty well. 

There is also a product called D-mat. It is a spray that you use before a bath. I use that on the feet sometimes because they tend to mat on Javi - It is not a miracle cure but it works pretty well. 

All my guys have full coats but they are by no means show coats . . . they play pretty rough at times and pull on each others ears and coats generally. 

After babysitting, Lucky and Harvey who are both in puppy cut, I was really tempted to put my three in puppy cut but I just can't seem to do it. 

Time to go brush a pup!

A


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

arlene said:


> My Javi has a cottony coat . . . I had some pretty tough matting issues when he was blowing coat. I live by a rotating tooth comb - and cheap baby powder with a high silicone content. Work in small sections and take breaks.
> 
> I have also had some success with a product called "Cowboy Magic" . . . it's a gel so it is fairly messy but I do use it on small sections to loosen mats. It works pretty well.
> 
> ...


I will try this as I do not won't to make her mats worse or cut them if I do not have to.
Thanks
Katrina


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## Tritia (Nov 17, 2007)

Looks just like what I'm dealing with my bichon mix. She's really cottony, as well. I just gave her a bath tonight and she looks exactly like that. Little tufts of fur, all matted up. Her backside is the worst, because she hates being brushed back there. She got like this in just a week's time, because of all the rain we're having. She's constantly wet when she comes in from going potty. It hurts her too much to try to get them out. I can't do it to her. So, this weekend..it's off to get shaved


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## JAEwton (Aug 7, 2007)

Wow does that picture of her look like my Katie last year. I ended up getting her shaved all the way down and now keep her in a shorter cut. Her coat keep's matting no matter how many times I brush her out. Now she is more comfortable and seem's to love the cooler cut.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Lilly's mom said:


> What products do you use on Riley's coat?


 Katrina I like to switch product, my favorites are IOD & Eqyss, and I just got some All systems to try. I do have the avocado mist, I love the smell of it but I will only use it right after the final rinse before I towel dry and blow dry. My own experiences with Riley is to never put anything on his coat after it has been dried. I was just talking to Amanda about dryers because I had a groomer come over and she had this very powerful dryer to dry the boys. Well the next day I got sick and did not even touch the boys with a brush or comb for a week. I was shocked that I only had one small tangle on Riley, I swear it was the fact that she was able to get him dryer than I do with my little hand dryer, it is the only thing different she did than what I do. With that it also makes me think that when you are adding product to a dry coat it gets wet and attracts dirt before it dries on its own causing more matts.


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

Leeann said:


> I swear it was the fact that she was able to get him dryer than I do with my little hand dryer, it is the only thing different she did than what I do..


Leeann, you are right. when I bathe the boys I always dry them all the way, it really makes a big difference with matting for the first week. I figured that it blew all the loose hair out that is causing the mats.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Paige said:


> I figured that it blew all the loose hair out that is causing the mats.


Paige that is so funny, I just said the same thing to DH last night when talking to him about spending the money on a good dryer. I think it worked hehe.


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## EMarie (Apr 11, 2007)

Katrina, 
Do you have a stand dryer? When either of my girls gets knotted up like that, I just bath them use a good amount of conditioner and then I dry them with a pin brush. If you are gentle and patient they will come out. I use the CC I believe it is the middle lenght pins on it. It takes me about 1 hour from start to finish. Because of the hours I work I only get them brushed out midweek and then when they get the bath on the weekend. We always might have a couple of knots but I have found you basic pin brush works the best for me and the girls. It also seems less painful for them because the brush is slowly working them out instead of the comb where it is harder to just grab a couple of hairs at a time. O yeah, I always use IOD shampoo and nothing else. And I always condition them too.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Lilly's mom said:


> Thanks for the idea about useing Pantene and brushing UNDER water :


Remember when Kara did that with Gucci and got in the tub with her? It worked for her. I brush under water too. If there's a stubborn matt, I work the conditioner that comes with Loreal hair color into the matt and it almost slides out...but don't leave the coat wet after doing this or it will matt worse. Make sure you dry each area as you get the matts out.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Hi Katrina,

Lincoln also has a cottony, profuse coat. He blew coat the second time around....22 months (just before 2 years).

If the Avocado mist has oil in it, it will attract dirt. I use Coat Handler's conditioner as a leave in product (after bathing). CHC has no oil. I have not had a problem with it attracting dirt and it leaves the coat feeling clean.

Good luck with Lilly. One mat at a time!


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Leeann, I think you will really like the All Systems. I really like their detangle. Mats just seem to glide out when I use it. Thank goodness I think I am past the blowing coat stage. They have been much easier to handle.


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## LuvCicero (Mar 31, 2008)

Katrina, how are you doing with the mats? I thought of you yesterday when I groomed Cicero. We had a relative come to visit for a couple of months and she had a little short haired mixed-terrier dog. They played constantly and the little bald dog loved to bite on Cicero's long hair, especially the face and topknot...:frusty: His coat took a beating, and all the hair will not go up in his topknot now. As I was working out tangles yesterday..less than a dozen...I thought of you! I'm hoping you are having some success!!


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Om, my! They blow their coats twice?! I had no idea. Apparently, from one posting, they blow the second time around 2 years? 

I've got questions for you all--everything I've read about brushing says NEVER brush a dry coat because it will break the hair. ? Are you all saying to brush dry? It sure seems harder to me to brush a damp-sprayed coat, but I've been doing it because I, too, love the long coats.

A breeder here recommended products by Chris Christensen called Ice on Ice, "leave in detangler and finishing spray with sunscreen" and Silk Spirits "liquid silk protein, smooths, eliminates frizz, glossy shine, blocks static" I started using them this last summer, and they seem to be pretty good, unless we're just dealing with an easier-coat season. 

Sheri


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Sheri, a lot of people here found that Ice on Ice can REALLY dry a coat and leave it brittle. I've never used it myself, but it's something I stay away from based on what others have experienced, though it's very possible that Tucker does not have that problem. I have Silk Spirits and like it but truthfully I haven't used it on Kubrick in months. I do give him fish oil every day.

As far as the brushing... I would actually recommend that you never brush the coat when it's WET. It can produce a lot more mats if he's already matted and you wet him before brushing/combing. It's okay to comb him wet if he's already been completely dematted but there's no reason to wet him unless you want to. Brushing/combing dry is completely okay and is how I've always done it.


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

*Lilly is almost mat free. I have one more to go. Thanks for asking. I tried powder, then deep conditioning, then I brushed her UNDER water (that wasn't fun) as my last resort I bought a mat breaker and got what was left. I know I know matt breakers can cause more matts in the future but I did NOT want to shave her and they were getting larger by the day and she HATES to see me with a brush now so what was I to do? I will just brush and comb diligently until I get her trimmed up in a month or so. Thanks for all of the advice. *


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## Gableshavs (Jun 19, 2007)

I discovered this product called Cowboy Magic detangler. Blossom has the coat from hell, literally she mats so easily, it's a curly undercoat and very profusive, it sticks out but I love dogs in full coat and will not shave her. Now I was so busy with my puppies I neglected to brush her for several days and she must have had a flea or something because I found a mat pad all over her lower body, completely in the undercoat. The first thing I have to say is mats should be prevented with brushing at least every other day. Blossom is the type of dog who will patiently lay there as I brush her. I get rid of mats first by:
bathing
than *deep conditioning *I use nexus humectrus deep conditioner any really intense human conditioner will do
take the wet dog and blow dry and comb small sections at a time. Use a greyhound comb, it's made for the job. You can purchase them online. They are called Greyhound Combs, and they are expensive but you only need one for life unless the comb gets lost.
Apply cowboy magic to the wet mat and very gradually with the tip of the comb go through the mat. TAKE YOUR TIME. If you grab the mat by the skin so that her hair won't pull when you comb, and work it out it will come out. The cowboy magic will lubricate the mat and it comes out very easily. Be prepared to use alot with that bad coat. I use enough on each mat to coat it. Then I also use it with daily brushing. 
With a coat as bad as your dogs, take more than one sitting. Your baby can only take so much dematting at a sitting. Blossom will sit for an hour but I take breaks and give her treats. Also talk to your dog the entire time, it relaxes them.
For routine grooming, I use the greyhound comb and a Chris Christiensen number 27 brush on her coat and never again will I miss more than two days between brushing. I recommend you do the same. Preventing that mess is a whole lot easier than cleaning it up.


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## LuvCicero (Mar 31, 2008)

Katrina, I'm so glad you got the mats out. You must be a very patient person  I know it takes time to work them loose and slowly use the comb.

Cicero is 10 months today so I am checking him like crazy for mats since I know he is going to start blowing coat very soon. I sure hope I can stay on top of it since I love the longer hair. Give Lilly some extra treats for being a good girl during this experience.


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