# Canine Nutrition Seminar



## ama0722

I went to a canine nutrition seminar done by a homeopath today and while I have heard most of the stuff. It was a refresher and made me really think about kibble and canned (she is completely against can food- she says it is kibble with more toxins as most of it is cooked in the can). She is completely pro raw (most are though) but she is all about natural everything. No vaccinations, no supplements, no carbs, no veggies. The best part is she had nothing to sell and I was going into thinking what is she gonna try to sell. I have a lot more research to do but I think I am going to go this route with all my dogs. She says she likes nature's variety but feels you are paying a lot more per pound and the carrots and apples are useless. She also said to take my money and put it towards organic (NV only has organic chicken) Her method is just simply following 80/10/10 and she does do fish oil 3 days a week. But nothing else and making sure at least 4/7 days they are eating it themselves (not ground).

They are trying to start a local coop around here to get organic products from one of the local organic farmers. As of right now they get shipments from www.hare-today.com Just thought I would share a snip it of what I talked about today.


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## Scooter's Family

Why is she against vaccinations? I don't know anything about any of this stuff so I'm curious. How do you even find out about these seminars?


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## ama0722

Ann- cause she was from a country that didn't do them so she was against them when she came here. She is actually from Cuba and is a fan of Havs!  She feels a lot of our dogs' health problems are directly from vaccines and kibble. It was just at my obedience club. Next time she is doing a vaccination seminar so didn't talk about that as much. Her full time job is treating dogs the natural way and she often has dogs living with her. A lot of it is honestly just common sense from her part and she is very honest about that. But hearing it and hearing it from someone whose full time job is to treat dogs is helpful.

Ironically a lot of the people there are natural themselves- one lady has 7 children and none of them have been vaccinated but each year she takes her dog cause she said he is outside a lot. She came because he has horrible allergies.


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## davetgabby

Raw can definitely be a healthy alternative. If you are disciplined ,,have extra time and know how to balance things out it is great. Your dog has to be able to handle it as well. But according to an article I was given , about canned versus kibble , the part about canned is not accurate. Here is part of the article about canned versus kibble.....
One of the most important advantages of wet food is that it is much less processed and often
made from higher quality ingredients than dry kibble. Wet food requires no cooking prior to the
canning process, since it is cooked in the can to create a bacteria free environment. Food
being less processed means it is also more digestible, the body doesn't need to work as hard
to utilize it.


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## Scooter's Family

But then what happens if you had to board them or take them to a groomer who wants proof of vaccinations? I hear lots of talk about not vaccinating kids but chose to do it with mine, it's a tough choice and people feel strongly on both sides. Perhaps it's the same in the dog world?

I just can't do the raw food, it grosses me out. It's all I can do to prepare meat for our family so there's no way I could manage to mix up all that stuff for the dogs. (I beg Gavin to make burgers because ground meat makes me want to uke:.)

What do you feed now?


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## ama0722

Well she would say you are comparing canned crap to bagged crap. She said the only difference is more water and then you get the toxins from cooking it in the can as well. I don't know about quality of ingredients being different as she said most isn't regulated at all. She also thought canned had more preservatives and additives. But she doesn't feed her own dogs either.

Definitely not saying this is for everyone- it was one canine nutritionist opinion.


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## ama0722

Ann- right now Dash is on evo with my home toppings. Dora does a rotation (between raw and evo) and Belle is on NV raw medallions and I do a rmb a few times a week with her. But I really think I am going to take them all over to the raw side soon. I gotta do a lot more reading and be totally prepared first. I have seen her dogs and some of the dogs she has treated over this last year of living here and I like the results I see.

Well I will tell you it isn't cheap but every place I have been involved with takes titers. But I don't board or take my dogs to a groomer but most trainers understand and don't ask for vaccinations and therapy dog will take titers.


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## davetgabby

this article goes on and disputes her claim that canned has more preservatives than kibble....

Unlike during the manufacturing of dry food, moisture does not have to be removed from the
ingredients of canned food, so food ingredients like meat, grains, potatoes/sweet potatoes,
pasta, vegetables and fruits remain fairly unchanged. Many ingredients used to manufacture
dry food have already been processed at least once before they are mixed into kibble "dough"
and cooked yet again (rendered meat meals and animal-based fats, dried vegetables and
eggs etc.).
Longer shelf life, less additives and preservatives, no flavoring agents
Canned food generally has a shelf life of two years and more without degradation of nutritional
value, compared to dry food, which can lose much of its nutrient content within a year of
the manufacturing date - depending on how it is preserved. The more natural stabilizers are
used, the shorter the shelf life.
A 1997 study by the University of Illinois Department of Food Science and Human Nutrition
found that canned fruits and vegetables for example provide as much dietary fiber and vitamins
as the same corresponding fresh foods, and in some cases, even more. Fresh foods
begin losing vitamins as soon as they are picked, and often travel long ways.
Although small amounts of preservatives may be present in canned food if they were already
added to specific ingredients used for the formulation, it does not need added preservatives
since the canning process sterilizes and preserves the food in an oxygen-free environment.
There is plenty of meat and fat to make the food palatable without flavoring agents, and since
the can is sealed no humectants are needed to keep moisture in, and no mold inhibitors (like
in semi-moist food products) to prevent the food from becoming moldy.


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## ama0722

Well she would never feed canned or kibble- she hasnt for over 40 years. She said if she couldn't feed raw, she would home cook.

What canned food do you feed your dog Dave?


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## davetgabby

Oh yeah , home cooked is very healthy. I give Molly 10 percent of her calories as home cooked. I would probably do more if we home cooked for ourselves regularily and healthy.


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## DanielBMe

Actually most of the reading I've done also indicates that good quality canned is better than kibble. Usually I've read the order of food goes Raw, home cooked, canned, then kibble.

I follow the 75/15/10 rule...my rule ;-) 75% meat, lentils and cottage cheese, 15% pulped veggies and 10% organ meat. 

Raw is so good Boney M made a song of it...Raw, Raw, Rawsputin...


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## ama0722

Daniel- she is a big supporter of the prey model. Why do you use these: lentils and cottage cheese, 15% pulped veggies?

Could someone give me an example of a good quality canned that uses better quality ingredients than the same kibble? I am really having a hard time believing that just cause it is cooked in a can (this seems bad to me) and has water added, it is better. As to bacteria, as soon as you open the can, it can grow a lot more bacteria than kibble. 

Dave- what canned food do you feed your dog? And how long have you been feeding canned only?


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## Kathy

ama0722 said:


> She feels a lot of our dogs' health problems are directly from vaccines and kibble.


I agree with this. I don't think all commercial grade dog food is horrible, but what we feed and the toxins we put in our animals does in my researched opinion cause our animals to die younger.

Raw is good but it isn't cheaper for sure when you have multiple dogs.

Myra Servant, a well respected canine reproduction person, believes that a raw diet isn't good for pregnant bitches due to higher calcium intake. Any one experience negative labor/delivery with their raw fed girls?


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## DanielBMe

ama0722 said:


> Daniel- she is a big supporter of the prey model. Why do you use these: lentils and cottage cheese, 15% pulped veggies?
> 
> Could someone give me an example of a good quality canned that uses better quality ingredients than the same kibble? I am really having a hard time believing that just cause it is cooked in a can (this seems bad to me) and has water added, it is better. As to bacteria, as soon as you open the can, it can grow a lot more bacteria than kibble.
> 
> Dave- what canned food do you feed your dog? And how long have you been feeding canned only?


Well Lentils have so many healthful benefits from providing good to excellent amounts of six important minerals, two B-vitamins, and protein-all with virtually no fat. They are also rich in dietary fiber, both the soluble and insoluble type. Research studies (for people though not dogs) have shown that insoluble fiber not only helps to increase stool bulk and prevent constipation, but also helps prevent digestive disorders like irritable bowel syndrome and diverticulosis.

As well they are a very good source of protein that is easily digestable when cooked. Therefore this helps me cut down on the cost of meat. Feeding two dogs can get expensive.

Cottage cheese is low in fat and carbs and very high in protein. It's also a good course of calcium, with Vitamin D.

I would suggest Evo canned as well as California Natural are two good sources.


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## Havtahava

Amanda, who was the speaker?

I won't do raw for a couple of reasons (prep, cleanup & compromised immune systems of some of our regular visitors), but I would not even consider it for my breeding bitches especially after hearing some reports from Myra Savant-Harris, RN.


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## irishnproud2b

My sister began feeding raw to her 4 dogs, some big, some small...until she ran out of money! :laugh: I asked my vet about it. She said "raw" is not the same as when animals had to kill in the wild. Today's meat comes from animals that have had injections and who eat questionable substances themselves sometimes. A wild animal did not have these chemicals in them. I am curious, though, as to what canned food Dave uses. As for vaccinations, I believe, just like people, that they are a necessary evil. I think the problems started to escalate in humans when they started to combine and give multiple vaccines at a time. Some children cannot tolerate the load and can get all kinds of illnesses. My sister's dog got too much rabies shot for its size (this was quite a while back and that practice I believe has changed) and he developed a terrible itchy, smelly skin problem that he still had when he died.


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## Chasza

Some dogs will, and do, die from viruses. Following is a link for interesting reading. I believe that she did lose one of her dogs to non-vaccination, but I don't have time to look it up. It might have been a friend of hers - but I remember reading the article and it was difficult as she / or her friend thought there were doing the best thing for the dog's health. She does give suggestions on how to be prepared when the dog does come down with parvo and the vaccine wasn't given. Personally, until I delve much, much further into the subject, I am for minimal vaccinations. I have only given my guys their puppy shots, and titers several years later still showed them high. (which according to her articles, showing high is not necessary as long as initial titers showed there was a reaction). I am saying, don't, please don't just say "well, this lady says it's ok not to vaccinate". That type of statement will end in alot of dog's deaths due to negligence of the owners to be prepared - both for what to do if the dog gets sick and to be prepared for their possible death and b/c of the lack of substantial research and information gathering by the owner. Blanket statements like these are dangerous b/c what ends up getting around is "you don't have to vaccinate" rather than a more moderate approach of "we don't have to vaccinate nearly as much" which affords protection for the majority of dogs whose owners are not obsessive about their health and care and prepreation.
Some good starter reading is found here: caberfeidh.com/HHC.htm --this is the index for a few holistic health articles. 

As are as the raw goes, the 10% organ meat is, in my opinion, often confused with being 10% liver. Personally, I think this is waaaay too much vit A, and I stick with around 3-4% liver, depending on the type of meat source. I do have sporadic consults with a well, well known specialist regarding diet for special needs dogs. What I was told was that alot more dogs that are being raw 'barf' (mostly just meat) fed are now being seen in her clinic with cancer, and she does think supplementation is good - however, it's darn difficult to find a supplement that is in moderation and doesn't go overboard, imo. Due to severe food allergies, we dont' have access to an ideal vitamin supplement - but I do have something I am using. Personally, I prefer human vitamins from well respected sources as I just don't trust "dog" supplements. So, there's another difficulty in acquiring a product that is appropriate for much smaller dogs. Too much supplements - vitamin - maybe even more the minerals - can be very bad and dangerous. But, too little, as in all meat/bone may in fact be rising the incident of cancer. Her info at this point is just what she has noticed in her practice, so there isn't 'proof', but it sure is worth considering in my opinion. I try hard for 'moderation' b/c I think that either extreme can lead for more oppurtunity for negative results. As my dogs get stabilized, and I will finally be able to acquire my Hav, then I want to consult her with raising a healthy dog on home prepared, and then I can find out more about other options for vitamins.
But in the meantime, my 'moderation' stance is both reflective in regards to vaccines as well as food. No, I'm not a vet, and not nearly as smart as many others who really are trying to get the true picture. This is my viewpoint only that comes from alot of years watching the human scientist tell us things like "vit E is a miracle vitamin" only to come back years later and tell us that taking more than 200 mg of vit E a day can lead to more severe health issues". (This dosage is for humans) So, moderation regarding the food means not going to the extreme of only feeding meat/bones and wondering where these doggies are going to get their micronutrients from. By the way, are these dog that are being fed meat/bone only -- are they getting the whole animal? The eyes, the brain, the intestines? Most aren't - most of us are far to squimish for that and just give meat/bones with a little organ added on top. This isn't a balanced meal at all, imo.

For what it's worth (and may be worth very little to most of you), but I do feed well cooked veggies to my guys. I also believe that small amounts of fruit for dogs are just as they are for us. There are a lot of phyto-nutrients in whole foods - and as long as you educate yourself on what not to give (and some veggies I limit severely in their diet due to nutrition uptake issues), then my personal opinion is that my dogs do acquire these micro-nutrients. 

Again, still stating my personal feelings, I don't like the idea of their consuming bone unless it is ground. Lots of people do this, but I am not comfortable with the risk. A dog can pull meat off of a large bone, which helps his jaw muscles and teeth, but consuming unground bones do have risks. Besides possible obstruction/perforation, there is the risk of breaking teeth. I should know, as mine each have at least one 4th premolar broken (seems to be the first one to go). Some have been removed, and one dog actually has a root canal - which may/may not still have to be removed. Will find out more with the upcoming dental cleaning.

I think it's great that more people are getting educated about health for their dogs and their selves. But, I worry about blanket statements b/c many people hearing such things just won't take in all the relevant information and take shortcuts and won't take the time for education and prep. And, as far as no vaccines go at all, well, I don't think you will find any older people who lived thru the polio years that will tell you that no one should get the polio shot. Yes, it does come with risks. All things do. The question to ask is: where is the greater risk? and what risk am I best capable of managing? The big reason some kids are not being vaccinated today is the belief that since the 'herd' is generally vacinated, then the 'individual' will be mostly protected. "herd" immunity. Hmmm, that still doesn't mean that 'that' person/dog won't get sick just b/c "most" around him have been vaccinated.

Having went on a long rant that may turn many people off, I will finalize by saying that I still continue to read, research both of these issues. My mind is open to changes, and there is the possibility that I will come back on this board a few years down the road and say something else if I feel truely relevant information has surfaced to sway my opinion. But, I think this moderate stance is very likely where, I, personally will stay.

These are hot topics, and very important. If I offended anyone by my tone, then I apologize. I realize that I may come off sounding harsh, and it is not my intention. I'm just stating why I feel the way I do, and it can be difficult to print all this and still 'sound' nice in tone when it's just in email. So, I hope everyone takes my point of view not as a personal attack --especially to the original poster who has started this topic b/c I do not mean it this way, ok?
I am concerned the op will think this is an attack since she brought it up -- but please don't think so -- it is not an attack on you!  
Maybe I do get too opinionated about these topics and maybe I should just :ban: myself from them. I guess it all hits too close to home for me since I struggle so much with the health of my two dogs and all their serious issues, and not knowing for sure what helps/hurts.


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## CinnCinn

This thread is a great read. Thanks.


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## Scooter's Family

The thing that worries me is that to some degree we have to rely on people who do have more information and for me that's our vet. I've spoken with them about food and they recommend the high end foods that rate highly on dogfoodanalysis.com so I feel comfortable with what we're feeding. I do supplement their food following a consult we did with Sabine and our dogs don't have any health problems that we're aware of. 

Some may think this naive but I tend to believe in moderation. The dogs get good food, regular vet check ups, lots of exercise and love, and their treats. Some of the treats are great and some are junk but they love them so they have them occasionally. I look at it like I do with my family, we eat a balanced diet but I'm not going to ban the ice cream and oreos.

I'm certainly not offended by anything that's been posted as I like hearing differing opinions, especially on topics of which I have virtually no personal knowledge.


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## mckennasedona

Interesting topic. I used to feed a prepared raw diet and my girls did very well on it. Unfortunately the only place we could get it was from the manufacturer's warehouse that was nearly an hour from our house and they weren't open on weekends so rushing around to get dog food got to be a coordination nightmare. I will admit that the girls did quite well on it though. 
I could never do the true raw diet because I don't have the time since both of us work outside the home. Trying to make sure they get the exact percentages of each individual nutrient is more than I can take on. If they got sick, I'd be sure it was because they didn't get their 10% of whatever for the week. My DH and I don't put that much analysis and thought into our own meals. I also cannot simply throw a chicken neck in each bowl and watch them take it out and eat it on the tile or the carpet. Yikes. I'm also not going to put up 3 ex-pens for them to eat in or be prepared to launder the blankets or mats that they eat on each night.
I would like to go back to a prepared raw if I can find one that the girls like and that I can buy closer to home. I tried NV medallions but the smell of them makes me nauseous for some reason.
I admire those who can do a raw, from scratch diet for their dogs and cats. It just wouldn't work for me.


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## Kathy

Havtahava said:


> Amanda, who was the speaker?
> 
> I won't do raw for a couple of reasons (prep, cleanup & compromised immune systems of some of our regular visitors), but I would not even consider it for my breeding bitches especially after hearing some reports from Myra Savant-Harris, RN.


I have never quite understood this reasoning. Feeding raw to dogs is no different then putting any raw meat in a bowl right? Meat we buy in the store isn't processed any differently and sometimes could be worse. Today's dishwashers sterilize the dishes we use and we certainly don't live in a germ free environment. <grin>


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## ama0722

Kimberly-The homeopath was magda aquila.

First, if it came across, I was telling people to only feed raw and never vaccinate, I did not mean to-personally I have one dog on raw, 2 on kibble and toppings, and mine have all received some vaccines. Also I did not attend her vaccination seminar. I was only saying the little snip it she shared. I am personally against vaccinating dogs so much cause my Isabelle (I have shared this several times) had an allergic reaction to the lepto that she wasn't suppose to get in the first place. I also lost a childhood cat to vaccinations but Isabelle's puppy reaction made me do more research and make my own choices.

I was sharing one nutritionist view that I previously said. And I am not offended by anyone sharing their views Chasza. Shoot you could tell me you have a gorgeous dog that eats el roy for 10 years and I wouldn't rush out to buy it for my own dog! Each of us are advocates for our dogs and I know with everything what works for one dog doesn't work for all. I am just sharing the view that I received yesterday and I found interesting. I have heard this all before but I have been able to see it work on a dog with severe allergies that took obedience class with Dash. I saw the transformation first hand so hence I wanted to go to hear her in person. It all started for him as a puppy when he was getting all his vaccinations. He started by chewing his paws, then hot spots, several trips to the vet, missing lots of hair, he was only eating science diet, getting shots each month, etc. Once again only one example but seeing his change, made me think wow and all it was was no shots and simple raw.

As to me, my dogs are all pretty healthy- all 3 of them actually. Belle had to have teeth removed this year (8 of them) unfortunately that is common in middle aged maltese. She has been on raw medallions and a few RMB for about a year so hopefully it is more preventative. My other two are on kibble with toppings that I make. Dora I go back and forth and give her raw about 1-2 days a week. Dash could gain some weight but he is so full of energy and happy in life that that has been a problem since he was a puppy. I know a lot of it is genetics and we talked about that yesterday but I do believe a lot of dog and people health problems have a lot to do what we put in ourselves as well.

As to vaccinations- all of my dogs have received one year boosters and then that is it. As further adults, 3 year rabies. Nothing else. That is my personal choice and I think that is something everyone has to decide and RESEARCH themselves. I remember being told by a vet that if I didn't give bordatella that my dogs would get kennel cough, etc. A lot of it is what we don't know. Isabelle is going on 7 and never had kennel cough and she goes to places with many dogs a few times a week. I kind of think of it like the flu shot, we all have to decide what is right for us based on our own health, surroundings, etc.

As to rushing out to join the band wagon. Dash and Dora had kibble last night and Belle had her same medallions. I ordered a few books but I didn't rush out to buy chicken backs  I know there is a lot of things said about raw but each person has to do their own research. I believe that regardless of what you feed or what shots you give, you are responsible for your dog and me for mine.

Ann- I agree with you if you believe in your vet. Unfortunately with all the places I have lived, I have only had one vet that gave good advice. Every other vet I have gone to sells SD right in their office and pushes it and pushes the vaccines. My current vet does the same but he respects my decision to make decisions and thought my dogs were in great health so he just doesnt push it on me. It is often times about the bottom line and that is money.


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## Scooter's Family

Seeing as this is our first experience with dogs, and a vet, I really think we got lucky. She was recommended by a neighbor who also takes her dog there and since then I've come across many others who go there and are very happy. Our vet only sells Royal Canin and didn't even recommend it to me when I first brought Scooter in. I'm going to ask questions about vaccinations when we go in on Wednesday, not quite sure what to ask but I'm going to try to get a list together beforehand.

I appreciate all of the info that's posted on the forum, I've learned so much!


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## DanielBMe

Chasza said:


> Some dogs will, and do, die from viruses. Following is a link for interesting reading. I believe that she did lose one of her dogs to non-vaccination, but I don't have time to look it up. It might have been a friend of hers - but I remember reading the article and it was difficult as she / or her friend thought there were doing the best thing for the dog's health. She does give suggestions on how to be prepared when the dog does come down with parvo and the vaccine wasn't given. Personally, until I delve much, much further into the subject, I am for minimal vaccinations. I have only given my guys their puppy shots, and titers several years later still showed them high. (which according to her articles, showing high is not necessary as long as initial titers showed there was a reaction). I am saying, don't, please don't just say "well, this lady says it's ok not to vaccinate". That type of statement will end in alot of dog's deaths due to negligence of the owners to be prepared - both for what to do if the dog gets sick and to be prepared for their possible death and b/c of the lack of substantial research and information gathering by the owner. Blanket statements like these are dangerous b/c what ends up getting around is "you don't have to vaccinate" rather than a more moderate approach of "we don't have to vaccinate nearly as much" which affords protection for the majority of dogs whose owners are not obsessive about their health and care and prepreation.
> Some good starter reading is found here: caberfeidh.com/HHC.htm --this is the index for a few holistic health articles.
> 
> As are as the raw goes, the 10% organ meat is, in my opinion, often confused with being 10% liver. Personally, I think this is waaaay too much vit A, and I stick with around 3-4% liver, depending on the type of meat source. I do have sporadic consults with a well, well known specialist regarding diet for special needs dogs. What I was told was that alot more dogs that are being raw 'barf' (mostly just meat) fed are now being seen in her clinic with cancer, and she does think supplementation is good - however, it's darn difficult to find a supplement that is in moderation and doesn't go overboard, imo. Due to severe food allergies, we dont' have access to an ideal vitamin supplement - but I do have something I am using. Personally, I prefer human vitamins from well respected sources as I just don't trust "dog" supplements. So, there's another difficulty in acquiring a product that is appropriate for much smaller dogs. Too much supplements - vitamin - maybe even more the minerals - can be very bad and dangerous. But, too little, as in all meat/bone may in fact be rising the incident of cancer. Her info at this point is just what she has noticed in her practice, so there isn't 'proof', but it sure is worth considering in my opinion. I try hard for 'moderation' b/c I think that either extreme can lead for more oppurtunity for negative results. As my dogs get stabilized, and I will finally be able to acquire my Hav, then I want to consult her with raising a healthy dog on home prepared, and then I can find out more about other options for vitamins.
> But in the meantime, my 'moderation' stance is both reflective in regards to vaccines as well as food. No, I'm not a vet, and not nearly as smart as many others who really are trying to get the true picture. This is my viewpoint only that comes from alot of years watching the human scientist tell us things like "vit E is a miracle vitamin" only to come back years later and tell us that taking more than 200 mg of vit E a day can lead to more severe health issues". (This dosage is for humans) So, moderation regarding the food means not going to the extreme of only feeding meat/bones and wondering where these doggies are going to get their micronutrients from. By the way, are these dog that are being fed meat/bone only -- are they getting the whole animal? The eyes, the brain, the intestines? Most aren't - most of us are far to squimish for that and just give meat/bones with a little organ added on top. This isn't a balanced meal at all, imo.
> 
> For what it's worth (and may be worth very little to most of you), but I do feed well cooked veggies to my guys. I also believe that small amounts of fruit for dogs are just as they are for us. There are a lot of phyto-nutrients in whole foods - and as long as you educate yourself on what not to give (and some veggies I limit severely in their diet due to nutrition uptake issues), then my personal opinion is that my dogs do acquire these micro-nutrients.
> 
> Again, still stating my personal feelings, I don't like the idea of their consuming bone unless it is ground. Lots of people do this, but I am not comfortable with the risk. A dog can pull meat off of a large bone, which helps his jaw muscles and teeth, but consuming unground bones do have risks. Besides possible obstruction/perforation, there is the risk of breaking teeth. I should know, as mine each have at least one 4th premolar broken (seems to be the first one to go). Some have been removed, and one dog actually has a root canal - which may/may not still have to be removed. Will find out more with the upcoming dental cleaning.
> 
> I think it's great that more people are getting educated about health for their dogs and their selves. But, I worry about blanket statements b/c many people hearing such things just won't take in all the relevant information and take shortcuts and won't take the time for education and prep. And, as far as no vaccines go at all, well, I don't think you will find any older people who lived thru the polio years that will tell you that no one should get the polio shot. Yes, it does come with risks. All things do. The question to ask is: where is the greater risk? and what risk am I best capable of managing? The big reason some kids are not being vaccinated today is the belief that since the 'herd' is generally vacinated, then the 'individual' will be mostly protected. "herd" immunity. Hmmm, that still doesn't mean that 'that' person/dog won't get sick just b/c "most" around him have been vaccinated.
> 
> Having went on a long rant that may turn many people off, I will finalize by saying that I still continue to read, research both of these issues. My mind is open to changes, and there is the possibility that I will come back on this board a few years down the road and say something else if I feel truely relevant information has surfaced to sway my opinion. But, I think this moderate stance is very likely where, I, personally will stay.
> 
> These are hot topics, and very important. If I offended anyone by my tone, then I apologize. I realize that I may come off sounding harsh, and it is not my intention. I'm just stating why I feel the way I do, and it can be difficult to print all this and still 'sound' nice in tone when it's just in email. So, I hope everyone takes my point of view not as a personal attack --especially to the original poster who has started this topic b/c I do not mean it this way, ok?
> I am concerned the op will think this is an attack since she brought it up -- but please don't think so -- it is not an attack on you!
> Maybe I do get too opinionated about these topics and maybe I should just :ban: myself from them. I guess it all hits too close to home for me since I struggle so much with the health of my two dogs and all their serious issues, and not knowing for sure what helps/hurts.


Actually my 10% organ is heart and liver but more heart than liver.


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## Havtahava

Kathy, do you remember the seminar we attended at UC Davis a few years ago? They discussed the studies of the raw eaters and gave a percentage (which escapes me now, but it was on the high end) that shed salmonella on their faces and in the yard (via feces). It is a bit different because raw meat in bowls and cutting boards goes directly into the dishwasher or is washed immediately and isn't allowed to be placed all over the house, whereas my dogs are.


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## DanielBMe

> By the way, are these dog that are being fed meat/bone only -- are they getting the whole animal? The eyes, the brain, the intestines? Most aren't - most of us are far to squimish for that and just give meat/bones with a little organ added on top. This isn't a balanced meal at all, imo.


The question is are you getting anything any different from kibble though?


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## DanielBMe

Havtahava said:


> Kathy, do you remember the seminar we attended at UC Davis a few years ago? They discussed the studies of the raw eaters and gave a percentage (which escapes me now, but it was on the high end) that shed salmonella on their faces and in the yard (via feces). It is a bit different because raw meat in bowls and cutting boards goes directly into the dishwasher or is washed immediately and isn't allowed to be placed all over the house, whereas my dogs are.


Keep in mind that there are studies that show that dogs that were fed kibble, at times shed salmonella in their feces as well. To top it off dogs that were fed raw, some had salmonella in their feces and some didn't. The study was not very conclusive on anything in fact.


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## ama0722

In my handout she suggested for the 10% organs to be 5% liver and 5% other organ meat including heart, pancreas, etc. But she specifically wrote not all liver but a combination. There are places that grind up everything. The link I placed before you can even get the pelt included if you want. But they say in the wild dogs would not eat certain things as well. My obedience instructor has fed whole rabbits to her bernese to see what they will eat and she said some things they wouldnt eat- I remember one being the lower intestines. 

Ann-I think you did luck out, I went to a vet that I told no lepto and whether it was a mess up or what not with Belle, they gave her the series that had lepto and that is when the whole thing started with me.


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## Kathy

Havtahava said:


> Kathy, do you remember the seminar we attended at UC Davis a few years ago? They discussed the studies of the raw eaters and gave a percentage (which escapes me now, but it was on the high end) that shed salmonella on their faces and in the yard (via feces). It is a bit different because raw meat in bowls and cutting boards goes directly into the dishwasher or is washed immediately and isn't allowed to be placed all over the house, whereas my dogs are.


There have been other studies done that show something different though. I have NEVER heard of anyone dying or getting ill and being hospitalized for feeding raw, so it seems like it is a slim risk compared to other risks in life. Just my opinion.


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## Scooter's Family

I did read that most animals won't eat the intestines of other animals because of the bacteria. I guess they know by instinct what not to eat.


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## DanielBMe

Scooter's Family said:


> I did read that most animals won't eat the intestines of other animals because of the bacteria. I guess they know by instinct what not to eat.


Not so sure how true that is cause my guys will eat just about anything they find on the street...no matter how disgusting it is....well at least not poop thank God! lol


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## Scooter's Family

I pulled cat poo out of Murphy's mouth this morning! I wasn't necessarily referring to dogs, I can't remember exactly what the article said but that portion of it stuck with me because it was so gross!!!


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## DanielBMe

Like in all things, there are people who live at the extremes. Although I feed raw, I don't go to the extreme of the prey model. I definitely believe in a balance. If the raw got too expensive to keep up, I'm simply switch one meal a day to raw and one kibble. 

The problem is there is so much misinformation/myths/unknows about raw, kibble and cooked (well not so much cooked), that it makes it amost impossible to feel 100% secure in what you feed your dog. Oddly enough I worry more about what I feed my dog than what I feed myself. I'm pretty sure there will never be a truely reliable 10yr study done because both sides are afraid of what they'll find.


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## luv3havs

This is an interesting discussion.

I feed my dogs Innova kibble and they seem to be very healthy.
I also give them green beans along with it. We give them high quality treats, and raw carrots, which they love.
They have firm stools and we have no feeding problems.

Maybe they'd be even healthier with raw, but it's not for me.


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## Jane

This is a really interesting thread. I am a "kibble with toppings" person. If I had more time, I'd go back to homecooking. I did feel a bit guilty when I was making doggie meatloaves and picking up takeout for dinner for my human family, LOL!

I just can't do raw. I gave Lincoln a chicken heart once and he carried it all around the house, laying it down in different rooms (on carpet and furniture), admiring it lovingly, before he finally ate it. It causes me too much anxiety thinking about ecoli and bacteria everywhere! But that's just me!


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## Leslie

Interesting conversation. Thanks for starting it, Amanda.

Tori's been on the rotation diet (raw, canned and kibble) for about a year now and has done quite well on it. However, in the last few months, she's been refusing to eat the raw (NV medallions) on occasion, and, honestly, she has never really liked eating the kibble. I tried changing the raw to Primal and she would hardly even sniff it, let alone eat it...


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## davetgabby

ama0722 said:


> Daniel- she is a big supporter of the prey model. Why do you use these: lentils and cottage cheese, 15% pulped veggies?
> 
> Could someone give me an example of a good quality canned that uses better quality ingredients than the same kibble? I am really having a hard time believing that just cause it is cooked in a can (this seems bad to me) and has water added, it is better. As to bacteria, as soon as you open the can, it can grow a lot more bacteria than kibble.
> 
> Dave- what canned food do you feed your dog? And how long have you been feeding canned only?


Amanda I use Petcurean and it is called Go . Any canned by a manufacturer is probably better than their own kibble if the company makes both canned and kibble. Most canned human stews are cooked in the can. It doesn't have to add water because there is water in the ingredients already. Whereas kibble has all the water removed.. Evo in a can is better than evo Kibble. As far as once you open the can , if you don't finish it in one meal ,you seal it and refrigerate it. It is fine to keep for a couple of days. Molly eats a can in three days. I agree ,raw and home cooked is the best way to go but it's not for us.


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## Chasza

Oh, Jane.... I completely understand about the bacteria everywhere -- I'm squimish about that, too - and would not be happy with raw food all over the living room!. But, reading that he 'looked lovingly' at it makes me want to suggest you put him in the bathtub or patio or something for occasional raw chicken hearts!!

I *think* I have read that wolves won't eat the stomach contents - b/c of the acid, but might shake the contents out and then eat the stomach muscle. I think they eat the upper and middle of the intestines (tripe). I don't like feeding brains and other stuff. It is kinda gross to me. 

Daniel, my guys will eat non-dog poop! I don't encourage it at all, but their very favorite is goose poop - I suppose they are getting in their pre-digested grass uke: Oh, yeah, they say puke is good, too! YUCK!


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## davetgabby

Hi Amanda , I thought I would ask Sabine for her opinon . Here it is as far as all the different types of food that are out there.

Hi Dave, 

my first choice is *always* a homemade diet prepared with fresh foods - either raw or cooked, depending on the individual dog's needs/situation and what the owner is willing to do. Raw (if correctly formulated, not some "generic" plan based on percentages, like BARF for example - e.g. "feed x% of this and y% of that and z% of the other thing" doesn't make for a properly balanced diet) is great, but if a dog or the owner, or someone in the home is immune compromised or a person is squeamish about handling raw meat, a cooked diet is fine.

As a general rule, the less processed the food overall, the better in my opinion, so I'd rank approximately like this, from best to worst:
* home prepared raw diet
* home prepared cooked diet
* commercial raw or cooked or freeze dried/dehydrated diets with fresh additions
* commercial raw or cooked or freeze dried/dehydrated diets without fresh additions
* commercial canned/pouch food with fresh additions
* commercial canned/pouch food without fresh additions
* commercial dry and canned/pouch food combo with fresh additions
* commercial dry and canned/pouch food combo without fresh additions
* commercial dry food only, with fresh additions
* commercial dry food only, without fresh additions

This ranking doesn't take ingredient quality into separate consideration though, obviously feeding a really poor quality commercial raw diet (yes they exist!) is worse than feeding a really high quality dry food, but it's nearly impossible to buy such poor quality ingredients at a grocery store that a homemade diet wouldn't beat all of the other options.

Let me know if you have any more questions!


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## Scooter's Family

Jane said:


> I just can't do raw. I gave Lincoln a chicken heart once and he carried it all around the house, laying it down in different rooms (on carpet and furniture), admiring it lovingly, before he finally ate it.


I would have required intense therapy and probably some medication if that happened here! OMG!!! uke:


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## Beamer

I'm not sure if Amanda posted this??

Makes you think twice about buying commercials kibble though! ughhhh

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-industry-exposed/dead-pets-in-dog-food/

Ryan


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## JASHavanese

Kathy said:


> Any one experience negative labor/delivery with their raw fed girls?


I know someone that lost all but one puppy in a litter that gives calcium suppliments and the labor was VERY long and finally wound up a C section.
Myra also feeds Costco dog food. Didn't she say she used to feed raw but had too many whelping problems?


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## JASHavanese

DanielBMe said:


> Actually most of the reading I've done also indicates that good quality canned is better than kibble. Usually I've read the order of food goes Raw, home cooked, canned, then kibble.
> 
> I follow the 75/15/10 rule...my rule ;-) 75% meat, lentils and cottage cheese, 15% pulped veggies and 10% organ meat.
> 
> Raw is so good Boney M made a song of it...Raw, Raw, Rawsputin...


Daniel, that's one very high protien diet. Can that be hard on the liver?


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## JASHavanese

davetgabby said:


> , about canned versus kibble , the part about canned is not accurate. Here is part of the article about canned versus kibble.....
> One of the most important advantages of wet food is that it is much less processed and often
> made from higher quality ingredients than dry kibble. Wet food requires no cooking prior to the
> canning process, since it is cooked in the can to create a bacteria free environment. Food
> being less processed means it is also more digestible, the body doesn't need to work as hard
> to utilize it.


I don't know about all of this but when I talked to the place that tests dog food, they said that canned was much less likely to have a problem and that it would be mostly the kibble with problems.
My dogs can't handle canned food as a whole meal. They wind up with really messy behinds and I wind up holding back my own dinner as I clean it up


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## Havtahava

JASHavanese said:


> I know someone that lost all but one puppy in a litter that gives calcium suppliments and the labor was VERY long and finally wound up a C section.
> Myra also feeds Costco dog food. Didn't she say she used to feed raw but had too many whelping problems?


Yes, she says she had many difficult whelpings and a higher mortality rate when she fed raw.

Back to the part about why I won't do it. There may be studies to the contrary, but due to the visitors that I have in my home (elderly, very young and immune-compromised), I'm not willing to risk it. In addition, I have no time nor patience for dealing with raw or home cooking. I have been very, very fortunate to have had dogs all my life and none have died prematurely and all have been kibble fed.


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## mckennasedona

> I have been very, very fortunate to have had dogs all my life and none have died prematurely and all have been kibble fed


Yep, me too. When I was a kid our Dachshund ate Purina Dog Chow and got a piece of bacon on weekend mornings. His treats were Milk Bones. He lived to be 17. Steve's dog Mindy ate Purina Dog Chow (and drank the occassional Coke when she could bite open a can) and lived to be 18. In fact, now that I think about it, all the dogs we've had that ate Purina Dog Chow lived well past 15 (Springer, Casie, Tigger, Charlie). The dog just prior to our Havs ate a higher end kibble and died at 12 but then, she didn't have the best start in life. 
I have a hard time believing that all the dog food companies intentionally use crappy ingredients and don't care if they kill our dogs. Each of us simply has to do the best we can when feeding our dogs. What's right for one may not be right for another so thank goodness there are so many choices.


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## Havtahava

I completely agree. I'm very grateful for the choices we have.


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## SMARTY

Here is an interesting site for raw feeding.

http://www.rawlearning.com/


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## SMARTY

mckennasedona said:


> Yep, me too. When I was a kid our Dachshund ate Purina Dog Chow and got a piece of bacon on weekend mornings. His treats were Milk Bones. He lived to be 17. Steve's dog Mindy ate Purina Dog Chow (and drank the occassional Coke when she could bite open a can) and lived to be 18. In fact, now that I think about it, all the dogs we've had that ate Purina Dog Chow lived well past 15 (Springer, Casie, Tigger, Charlie). The dog just prior to our Havs ate a higher end kibble and died at 12 but then, she didn't have the best start in life.
> I have a hard time believing that all the dog food companies intentionally use crappy ingredients and don't care if they kill our dogs. Each of us simply has to do the best we can when feeding our dogs. What's right for one may not be right for another so thank goodness there are so many choices.


I agree 100%, Smarty would still be Purina Pro Plan had she not had food allergies and thought I should be doing better for her (them). Going to a Natural Balance took care of the itching but added to her urinary infection (sweet potatoes). Now I have them on EVO she is back to chewing the hair on her upper leg and has gas for the first time in her life. You just can't win.

http://www.petdiabetes.com/urinarytractinfection.html
Dietary Management of Infection 
Canine nutritionists recommend treating chronic infections from the inside of the body, outward. In addition to whatever treatments your veterinarian prescribes, nutritionists recommend acidifying the dog's system through dietary means. If you are feeding a homemade food, remove any grain and high-sugar fruits and vegetables from the diet. This includes bananas, apples, sweet potatoes, yams, carrots, green peas, corn, parsnips, winter squash, and tomatoes. 
Commercial dog food, especially kibble, is very alkaline. If you continue to feed commercial food, acidify the system by adding vitamin C, raw apple cider vinegar (available at health food stores, not grocery stores), and cranberry juice or cranberry extract, or frozen blueberries. *In addition, some research indicates that highly bio-available protein (homemade diets with raw or cooked meat) discourages bacteria from developing in the urinary tract. * end of quote....

So I have now a new dilemma......


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## DanielBMe

JASHavanese said:


> Daniel, that's one very high protien diet. Can that be hard on the liver?


I don't see how that would really be any higher than any other raw diet. Keep in mind that a raw chicken breast or steak are approx 25% protein by weight.



> It's Not Just the Highest Protein Content, But Also Protein Quality That Matter
> Second, you also need to look at the quality of protein in a food, not just the quantity.
> 
> In the past, protein quality was measured using something called biological value (BV.) However, in recent years, nutritionists and scientists have started to use something called the Protein Digestibility-Corrected Amino Acid Score (PDAAS). While there are still a few kinks in PDAAS, in general, it's recognized as the most accurate measurement of overall protein digestibility in foods.
> 
> PDAAS uses a 0-1 point scale, with 1.0 being the most digestible protein and zero being the least. You can roughly translate this into a percentage of protein digested. So if eggs have a PDAAS of 1.0 and wheat gluten has 0.25, then 100% of egg protein is absorbed by the body by weight, versus only 25% of the protein in wheat gluten.
> 
> Plant sources of protein like wheat gluten, vegetable proteins, and nut proteins usually have the lowest PDAAS and milk, eggs, whey and soybeans have the highest.
> 
> Practically speaking, this means that even though a 50 gram serving of extra-lean beef may have more overall protein than the same amount of egg, the actual amount of protein that gets absorbed by the body is very different.
> 
> To illustrate this let's compare beef and eggs. According to the PDAAS, 100% of egg protein is digested by the body, while only 92 percent of the protein in beef is absorbed. So for that 50 gram serving of eggs, 6 grams of protein are actually usable by the body, versus 11.8 grams of the beef's total 12.9 grams of protein.
> 
> If you adjusted the total amount of protein consumed to be equal between the two (disregarding the weight), gram-for-gram your body would utilize more of the egg protein than the beef protein.





> Eggs
> Eggs are one of those foods that always makes the top five list when it comes to high protein content. Here's what eggs look like from a nutritional standpoint:
> 
> One large, whole raw egg (50 g) has the following nutritional profile:
> 
> Fat: 5 grams
> Carbohydrates: 0 grams
> Protein: 6 grams
> Protein Percent by Weight: 12%
> 
> Chicken Breast
> Chicken breast is a staple of bodybuilding building diets because it's considered very high in protein. Here's what a 50 gram serving of chicken breast looks like from a protein perspective:
> 
> Fat: 0.6 grams
> Carbohydrates: 0 grams
> Protein: 11.5 grams
> Protein Percent by Weight: 23%
> 
> Ground Sirloin (95% Extra Lean)
> Lean beef is another food that is considered very high in protein. Here's what 50 grams of extra lean ground sirloin looks like:
> 
> Fat: 3 grams
> Carbohydrates: 0 grams
> Protein: 12.9 grams
> Protein Percent by Weight: 25.8%
> 
> Raw Yellowfin Tuna Steak
> Among fish, tuna is one of the highest protein foods:
> 
> Fat: 0.5 grams
> Carbohydrates: 0 grams
> Protein: 11.7 grams
> Protein Percent by Weight: 23.4%


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## JASHavanese

Scooter's Family said:


> The thing that worries me is that to some degree we have to rely on people who do have more information and for me that's our vet.


Chances are you have more information on diet than your vet does. They have so little time spent on learning about diet. 
My vet actually told me to up the calcium intake when Bandit was pregnant. Had I not been on the net I would have listened to him and who knows what would have happened.
A gal I know who has been in dogs forever once told me that you can check to see if your dog is getting enough calcium by grinding up an egg shell and feeding that to your dog. If the shells show in the stool, the dog didn't need the calcium. If there's no shell showing in the stool, the dog's body needed the calcium and digested it


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## ama0722

I am glad that everyone is sharing their thoughts and experiences. I definitely think this is something you have to decide on your own. Right now I am transitioning everyone to commercial raw but I do plan to make it myself as well as do some RMB.

The oldest dog I ever owned was a backyard bred golden retriever who had no health testing, received yearly shots, ate what ever was on sale at the grocery store or we didn't eat for dinner. That being said she lived to 17 (unheard of in the breed) with very minor health problems. I think genetics has a lot to do with health and age as well. That being said, I try to make educated choices for my pups, cause they can't.

I have had a whole new education on rendering plants and how commercial dog food is made. I had no clue and there is plenty to read about.


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## davetgabby

ama0722 said:


> I am glad that everyone is sharing their thoughts and experiences. I definitely think this is something you have to decide on your own. Right now I am transitioning everyone to commercial raw but I do plan to make it myself as well as do some RMB.
> 
> The oldest dog I ever owned was a backyard bred golden retriever who had no health testing, received yearly shots, ate what ever was on sale at the grocery store or we didn't eat for dinner.  That being said she lived to 17 (unheard of in the breed) with very minor health problems. I think genetics has a lot to do with health and age as well. That being said, I try to make educated choices for my pups, cause they can't.
> 
> I have had a whole new education on rendering plants and how commercial dog food is made. I had no clue and there is plenty to read about.


You're right Amanda. And if you want to read a good book about pet food, and one that is very scary ,try .... Food Pets Die For by Anne Martin.


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## SMARTY

My girls don’t know what to do with raw bones.

I picked up two small bone end roast at the market today, the butcher cut the bones out. This should be a major treat. right? I needed to do a little yard work, so they could eat them in the grass. These bones are definitely not ones to be eaten in the house. Galen just wanted to bury her bone in the bushes. Smarty just wanted to growl at Galen for looking at her, so in we came to the crates. Both girls are just laying in their crates looking at these bones. 

As excited as they were to get them, I’d have thought they would be chowing down.


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## mckennasedona

Sandi, that's funny. A couple of years ago I bought McKenna and Sedona some pig's feet to eat. (Sold in a grocery store so suitable for human consumption, just not THIS human.....blech!) 
Sedona settled in the grass to chew hers. McKenna looked at me like I was nuts. She carried it around the patio for awhile, dropped it, looked at it, looked at me, sniffed it, carried it around some more and finally walked away from it. She was not impressed. 
After about a half an hour my husband was getting really disgusted by them so we threw them away. He can handle me giving the girls the occassional raw chicken wing but not much else. Thankfully, the prepared raw isn't so bad. I'm going to try Stella and Chewy's.


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## davetgabby

SMARTY said:


> My girls don't know what to do with raw bones.
> 
> I picked up two small bone end roast at the market today, the butcher cut the bones out. This should be a major treat. right? I needed to do a little yard work, so they could eat them in the grass. These bones are definitely not ones to be eaten in the house. Galen just wanted to bury her bone in the bushes. Smarty just wanted to growl at Galen for looking at her, so in we came to the crates. Both girls are just laying in their crates looking at these bones.
> 
> As excited as they were to get them, I'd have thought they would be chowing down.


That's cute Sandy. LOL


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