# Happy Trails breeder



## Happy Frog

Hello all -

We are researching Havanese breeders - Is anyone familiar with "Happy Trails Havanese" in Iowa? Breeder is Marlene Nolting. www.happy-havanese.com

Any feedback greatly appreciated!


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## Wildflower

Bumping this to see if anybody knows this breeder? She is close to me in Iowa. (Well, "close" in my rural area means less than a 3-hour drive!  )


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## Julie

I did talk with her before I bought Quincy. She didn't have what I was looking for,but I would of bought from her with more "talking" back and forth.

She has testing up on her website but I would of requested to actually see the results of that testing myself first----prior to purchasing. At that time she didn't have as many litters as she has now (Quincy is almost 4) and her daughter wasn't breeding...so .....?


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## Julie

If you are looking for a breeder in Iowa----I also know one.....Sandy McCabe....Heartland Havanese.

I met her in person in August in Chicago. I do not know much about their dogs per say,but I do think they do all the testing required. I had called them also prior to buying Quince,but they were never home.


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## Wildflower

Julie, thank you! I had first looked at the Happy Trails site back at the end of November and she had some beautiful puppies at that time but they were all sold... 

And thank you for the Heartland Havanese name as well!

We are planning on bringing another dog to our family in about a year or so and I would like to find a breeder now that I can get to know a little bit and be comfortable with. Looking in Iowa just because I'm here but can easily go out of state, too.


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## Julie

Carolyn,
Sandy McCabe (Heartland Havanese) had a dog I kept seeing winning (the name would pop up in havanese magazines and stuff called "Heartland Hiladgo". I knew the hav world was small when I first found a havanese group and actually talked to the lady who bred Jesperson's Heartland Hildago...she was from another country,but for the life of me,I can not think of it now.:sorry:

As it turned out--when I met and spoke to her and her husband in Chicago...she had had a major health thing going on around the time I bought my Quince and so they were not home much. The wierd thing is they did not know about me having a havanese and they are only like 10 miles away from me. 


Marlene was very very kind as we chatted before (Happy Trails) but the one I wanted was gone....and well....I saw Quince and just knew this was my guy! Also---the wierd thing about Quince was he was bred by 2 ladies in Florida and the one I dealt with was an Iowa girl born and raised here! I also met her in Chicago! It was the strangest darn thing to walk out from the hotel in Chicago and see her across the parking lot...All excited--I walked up quick and yelled her name telling her I was Quincy's Mom! She saw his pix on my name tag (thanks to Beverly and Dana) and said......."I knew I should of kept him".....Of course in retrospect--she probably thought "who the hell is this whack-o yelling at me?" ound:

I certainly got lucky with my Quintuplet.....:kiss:


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## karin117

I guess you talked to Brigitte Jespersen who live in Denmark she breed Hildago. They breed Coton de Tular and havanese and you can visit them here:
http://www.pet.no/jespersen/index.asp


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## Beanie

*Ms. Beanie is from Happy Trails...*

Carolyn:

I purchased Beanie from Marlene whom I had talked to several times; all of her pup parents are tested, and Marlene hand raises them all...Marlene was very kind and informative about her pups...she strives to produce puppies on the smaller end (the truer sized Havanese) of the scale, hence Beanie is about 8lbs and that's about as big as she'll get. I paid $140 to have Beanie flown out to California; Marlene kept her an extra 3 or 4 weeks because we were traveling during the time when she would originally have been flown out (8 weeks of age), so Marlene got her started on potty training etc. Beanie was crate trained of course, and she is a very delightful little puppy. We are completely happy with her.

Toni


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## Havtahava

Beanie said:


> I purchased Beanie from Marlene whom I had talked to several times; all of her pup parents are tested...


Toni, can you tell me what this means? I'm not familiar with testing pups.


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## Beanie

*Beanie's dam & sire (CERF'd, BAER tests)*

Hi Kimberly:
I just meant that Marlene insured that Beanie's dam & sire were given CERF and BAER tests. Also, Beanie came with a 2 year health guarantee...against all health issues (juvenile cataracts, Legg Perthes disease, etc). That is the least you should look for in a responsible breeder...

Toni


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## Havtahava

I am so sorry Toni. I totally overlooked the word "parents" even when I quoted you.


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## dodrop82

We bought Yogi from Marlene too, and couldn't ask for a better girl! The funny part of my story... I wanted a girl, but everytime I found a dog I liked, it was a boy. So when I saw "Danny" (Yogi) I decided a boy dog would work just fine. The day I brought Yogi home, I was playing with "Him" in the yard, rolled "Him" over, and thought I had lost my mind. Yogi has a whoey, not a pee-pee! So I ended up with my girl after-all! I have'nt yet informed Marlene about this little mistake. But we do talk alot about getting Yogi a sister/brother, and we'll go back to Marlene. I'll have her second check the sex this time. TeeHee!!


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## galaxie

dodrop82 said:


> Yogi has a whoey, not a pee-pee! So I ended up with my girl after-all!


WHAT?! how the heck does that happen...that's a pretty huge oversight on the breeder's part...


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## Beanie

Yogi is very cute...Stacey: how much does she weigh? I know Marlene breeds Havis on the small side...Beanie is less than 10lbs and is a year old. But she is a pistol. 

Toni


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## dodrop82

We couldn't wrap our mind around the whole thing either. Yogi weighed 9lbs 4oz at 13 months. She was born on May 25th, 2009. and came home with us one year and 2 days ago. She can be a pistol as well. She is very verbal when she's bored, when someone leaves her, when she wants a treat, when she wants to GO...and we are having a heck of a time teaching her her boundries outside! She listens to Daddy way better then Mom!!! I think we finally conquered potty training. Haven't had one snuck in on us in quite some time!


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## Beanie

*Beanie and Yogi are sisters...*



dodrop82 said:


> We couldn't wrap our mind around the whole thing either. Yogi weighed 9lbs 4oz at 13 months. She was born on May 25th, 2009. and came home with us one year and 2 days ago. She can be a pistol as well. She is very verbal when she's bored, when someone leaves her, when she wants a treat, when she wants to GO...and we are having a heck of a time teaching her her boundries outside! She listens to Daddy way better then Mom!!! I think we finally conquered potty training. Haven't had one snuck in on us in quite some time!


Stacey:
Beanie was born on the same day...Was Gerty's sire "The Prince of Happy Trails" and the bitch- "Shameless Minnie of Happy Trails"? If so, they are sisters!
Cheers, Toni & Beanie


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## dodrop82

Her Sire was The Prince of Happy Trails, but her Momma was Nolting's Sweet Lilhanneh. So they are half-sisters. But isn't it odd that they were born on the same day, from different Mom's! Hmmmm....Anyway, we'll have to get the girls together for a playdate. You wanna come here, or shall I we come there? HaHaHaHa! Oh, and Gerty's sister is just as stunningly beautiful as Gerty (Yogi) is.....


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## rdanielle

galaxie said:


> WHAT?! how the heck does that happen...that's a pretty huge oversight on the breeder's part...


Ya I'd say... wow. Maybe she was in a rush and there were clone puppies and picked up the wrong one??


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## dodrop82

I thought of that too, at first. But the only one that was remotely colored like her (Red Sable), was "also" a boy. And much darker colored then Yogi was.


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## Wildflower

I still watch Marlene's website! I plan on getting Holly a brother in a year or two and at this time, my plan is to contact her when we're ready!

I'm ready NOW but ol' hubby isn't.


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## Wildflower

dodrop82 said:


> We bought Yogi from Marlene too, and couldn't ask for a better girl! The funny part of my story... I wanted a girl, but everytime I found a dog I liked, it was a boy. So when I saw "Danny" (Yogi) I decided a boy dog would work just fine. The day I brought Yogi home, I was playing with "Him" in the yard, rolled "Him" over, and thought I had lost my mind. Yogi has a whoey, not a pee-pee! So I ended up with my girl after-all! I have'nt yet informed Marlene about this little mistake. But we do talk alot about getting Yogi a sister/brother, and we'll go back to Marlene. I'll have her second check the sex this time. TeeHee!!


Wow! That's a *heck* of an oversight!

Totally different circumstances, but I once took an adopted stray cat to the vet to be spayed only to find out she was a boy. :redface: That was embarrassing. We had named her Frankie (she had blue eyes), so at least we didn't have to change his name!


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## galaxie

Yeah I'm sorry but I just don't see how a "reputable" breeder doesn't know the difference between a male and female dog...and doesn't CHECK the dogs before they go home.


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## dodrop82

Oh, I keep an eye on what she's got goin' on too. Never know when we'll get that wild hair or find that special puppy that I must have!


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## Graciep0o

Oliver is from Marlene as well! We fell in love with him as soon as we saw him on her website. I also still browse her website, but the next one might be from a breeder closer to home.


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## Wildflower

There are some new puppies on her website now... so cute! I love tiny puppy pictures.


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## trueblue

Little Jack is adorable!


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## dodrop82

Oh my God! You have started intense discussions at my home. I love Sara!


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## Beanie

*7 cuties on Marlene's site...*



Wildflower said:


> I still watch Marlene's website! I plan on getting Holly a brother in a year or two and at this time, my plan is to contact her when we're ready!
> 
> I'm ready NOW but ol' hubby isn't.


Look at her latest cuties...all Irish Pied..black and white; couple of adorable black females...


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## Beanie

*I remember Oliver from Marlene's site...*



Graciep0o said:


> Oliver is from Marlene as well! We fell in love with him as soon as we saw him on her website. I also still browse her website, but the next one might be from a breeder closer to home.


He was so cute and tiny...how old is he (under a year, I'd guess)...and I imagine he will be small. Beanie is about 9 lbs and a year old...she was all red, and now has faded to very light cream with peach overtones. She has an amazing personality...


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## Wildflower

dodrop82 said:


> Oh my God! You have started intense discussions at my home. I love Sara!


I have some friends in South Dakota in some intense discussions as well after seeing these photos. 

Susie and Lilly are my favorites -- I'm looking forward to seeing more photos as they grow!

I keep thinking Holly needs a brother.... but a sister would be nice, too. I would name her Ivy.


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## ttutah5

*HAPPY TRAILS*

I am also looking for feedback on Happy trails. Does anyone know anything about Rave'n Havanese in Homer Nebraska?


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## lfung5

I would say neither of the breeders you mentioned are great. Responsible good breeders will not only show but health test their dogs. That does not just mean a vet check up. They will test for many thing, not just hearing and eyes. If you find a breeder you think you like, go to, http://www.offa.org/. You can search the kennel name or particular parents to see what health testing was done and the results. If you don't see anything, run! Most good breeders will post the test results, chic numbers, pedigrees, and show pictures on their website.


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## dodrop82

Marlene does all the testing on her dogs. I got Yogi from her, and Yogi is the most perfect wonderful dog I've ever had and has not had one health problem of any sort. I have every intention of getting my next Hav from her, and I can't wait. Call her. Ask her all the pertinent questions. Pretty sure you'll be happy with the answers.


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## Wildflower

We also plan to go to Marlene at Happy Havanese when we're ready for our second dog!


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## Posh's Mom

okay, just checked offa.org and there are no havanese dogs in the registry with the happy trails prefix.

there is absolutely no reason why if you've gone to the trouble of health testing your dogs that you wouldn't have the results recorded and stored on an easily accessed public internet database.

every ethical breeder who is health testing is sending their results in, i said ethical, and ethical includes being 100 percent honest.

sorry, this is blunt but you're doing the homework and the research and the investment on this creature and i smell a rat.


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## Posh's Mom

rave'n havanese also has no records on www.offa.org.

even hybrid dogs, which are really pretty frowned upon with most responsible/ethical breeders are being able to be registered in this database, so it's an extremely thorough and easy accessible tool.

it's a win, win deal for the breeder and buyer so this sends really big flags to be that the breeder has not sent these in.

please keep looking. there quite a few good breeders in the midwest that you could work with.


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## lfung5

I agree. I don't see anything about showing her adults either. If she's doing the health testing, I agree it would be on the offa site.


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## Diamonddave952

My family and I adopted a havanese puppy from Happy Trails Havanese a few weeks ago. A Very good friend of mine adpoted 3 puppies from her several years ago. Neither my friend or I have any reservations about adopting a puppy from Happy Trails Havanese. Marlene is very knowledgeable and great to work with.


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## galaxie

dodrop82 said:


> Marlene does all the testing on her dogs. I got Yogi from her, and Yogi is the most perfect wonderful dog I've ever had and has not had one health problem of any sort. I have every intention of getting my next Hav from her, and I can't wait. Call her. Ask her all the pertinent questions. Pretty sure you'll be happy with the answers.


If the health testing is in fact done, why is it not posted on the only recognized registry for health testing? Have you seen the health tests? I see the photos of some dogs getting CERF and BAER, but why not post them on the registry? It doesn't make sense to me. And I'm still not over the whole "thought it was a boy but it was a girl" issue...I'm glad that you all are happy with your puppies from Happy Trails, but it seems to me that there are a number of red flags here...


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## dodrop82

Feeling rather argumentative this Holiday season? Well, I'm not so much, so if it's really that big of an issue to ya, I'll let you go ahead and play detective and investigate whether my dog is the perfect girl I believe her to be, or if she's 'not worthy'....I'm just going to continue enjoying life, K?


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## lfung5

Stacey,
I don't think anyone is trying to be argumentative. I bet you couldn't be happier with the pup you got from Marlene. I believe Nataline is just trying to educate anyone else who may be looking at this thread wanting to buy a pup. I'm sure there are worse breeders out there and better breeders. If you are happy, no one here is trying to make you feel bad for the decision you made.


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## galaxie

Linda's exactly right. Which is why I said this:



galaxie said:


> I'm glad that you all are happy with your puppies from Happy Trails, but...


On this forum, we are always growing in terms of knowledge and trying to find the best, most thorough breeders that only produce pups for the betterment of the breed. What I don't understand is the health testing - why not post it? Every other breeder who has all the tests done posts them on offa.org

I am sure that you adore your pup, but that doesn't mean she came from a great breeder. This thread asks for opinions about Happy Trails, not just share how much you love your Happy Trails puppy. My opinion is that an oversight in the sex of a puppy and the fact that there are no health test results posted on offa.org are red flags. You are entitled to your opinion about this breeder, as am I.

I too purchased my first pup, Maddie, from a less than reputable source - far less glamorous than Happy Trails, I might add. I'm not proud of it, I shouldn't be, and I've learned a lot since then. It was through this forum, research, and self-education that I realized that although I was lucky and Maddie is a very healthy, well socialized, wonderful dog, things could have been much different. We all have to be able to admit when we may have made a questionable past decision - the point is that we, as a group on this forum, are about learning and the future. We cannot change what we have done in the past, but I think it's unfair to defend a breeder simply because you have a puppy from her and she is a nice person. I don't doubt that she is the kind, caring woman that you describe her as, and I don't doubt that her puppies are cute and sweet. What I do doubt is the health testing - and I highly recommend that before ANYONE purchases a puppy from ANY source, that they see official copies of all health tests, whether they are posted on offa.org or can be obtained from another legitimate source.


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## pjewel

dodrop82 said:


> Feeling rather argumentative this Holiday season? Well, I'm not so much, so if it's really that big of an issue to ya, I'll let you go ahead and play detective and investigate whether my dog is the perfect girl I believe her to be, or if she's 'not worthy'....I'm just going to continue enjoying life, K?


I think you should enjoy every day with the little girl you love. It would be foolish to question anything about her lineage. Whatever the breeder did or didn't do, there appear to be a lot of folks out there happy with the puppies they got and the relationship with the breeder. So, have a wonderful holiday season with your sweet girl and give her an extra hug from me.


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## Sheri

Nicely put, Amy, Natalie, Linda, Geri....


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## SOPHIES-MOM

Enjoy your baby from wherever she came. Now is not the time for you to worry about the breeder. I'm sure she is perfect!


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## Beanie

Call Marlene and ask her why she doesn't post on www.offa.org! Ok, I will. Be back tomorrow.


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## lfung5

Beanie said:


> Call Marlene and ask her why she doesn't post on www.offa.org! Ok, I will. Be back tomorrow.


Great. I'm sure that will clear the air. Let us know what you find out. Ask her if she health test all her adults each year for the recommended test from HCA. A few of them are CERF, BEAR, xray hips and patella, heart, elbows etc.

Can you also ask if she shows all her breeding dogs? I'm just curious.


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## galaxie

Beanie said:


> Call Marlene and ask her why she doesn't post on www.offa.org! Ok, I will. Be back tomorrow.


That's all I'm wondering - but I wasn't exactly about to call up a woman I don't know. lol.


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## Posh's Mom

natalie you are very eloquent.

bravo on your kind, but informative and awesome post.


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## lfung5

Beanie said:


> Call Marlene and ask her why she doesn't post on www.offa.org! Ok, I will. Be back tomorrow.


Any word???????????


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## laneae

*Please Help Happy Trails Havanese*

I just bought a puppy from Marlene and I'm a little concerned now, when I went to register the puppy (Yves) the AKC parent #'s didn't match up with the names that she gave me. And now when I come here other people that have bought puppies from her they have all been sired by "Billy" or "The Prince of Happy Trails" well she said that the puppies dad was Billy and she wrote Happy Trials Billy on the AKC paperwork, but when I went to register the name was Christy's something something... The AKC # she gave me was TR36306302 and I was just wondering if that was the same number she gave you when you bought your puppy. I'm also concerned about the mom too, when I was thinking about buying Yves she said the mom was Zoey and that made me want to buy her because, just personal opinon, but I though she was the cutes. Well when I went to register it said Happy Trails Katie. This really bothers me because I specifically asked if they were Zoey's puppy and I don't even see a Katie on her website at all. If someone has bought a dog from her and I know that there were a few can you please please tell me if the AKC numbers match.

Thanks,
Lanea


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## lfung5

Oh boy. I was afraid of this. This breeder looked very suspicious to me. In fact, Beanie's mom was pretty agitated with some of our concerns. She said she would call Marlene and ask about health testing. She never got back to us to report her finding. That speaks volumes to me. I hope you uncover the truth. Sorry you have to go through this. Thanks for posting, because this is a learning curve for a lot of us.


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## laneae

*Happy Trails*

Ok, I did some more research and looked on the AKC/Eukanuba Natl Champ - Dec 01, 2007 and found the name "CH Christa's Jumpy Clown Yank" and that was the name that I remember when I registered Yves last night. That was a major weight lifted off my shoulder, but I'm surprised nobody has noticed that before, or if it was just me. I guess I just don't get "Billy" or "The Prince of Happy Trails" out of Christa's Jumpy Clown Yank, but it does seem to add up now according to the AKC website . I feel a little bad, and maybe jumped the gun a bit it's just that the names (both parents) really threw me off. I'm still a little concerned about the mom and I will continue to try and contact her and ask her about it (I just called a couple of hours ago). There was just serveral things not adding up, that had me question a lot. I have to say if I can get the whole mom thing answered, I would feel a lot better and ever recommend her. I will also ask about the www.offa.org after I do a little more research. Besides the strange name thing and the lack of offa.org registration thought, which most likely will be cleared up, she has answered all of my questions, and Yves is a very good, happy, healthy puppy.


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## Julie

I have watched this website for a long time now over 4 years in fact......and periodically still go and peek at puppies.

There are a few things I have noticed--
First-they have puppies it seems allot of the time now (almost always) and I know it said that her daughter's name is Christy and Christy also breeds-----so some of these litters are hers. It does not surprise me that the name is registered differently then a call name.....and that it may include the name Christy (her daughter). I do not know these people....but have talked with Marlene 4 + years ago when I was looking for a puppy. I did not know all the stuff I know now about havanese and all the testing,how to find out the info etc.and I did not get Quincy from her because she had only a female left that I did not care for myself....so I moved on.

I actually have not formed an opinion one way or another on Marlene...but I would strongly suggest that anyone buying a puppy from anyone do their own research and ask for help to check out information if needed. Ultimately the decision to buy from one breeder or another is your own......we all have our own ideas of what is best.....but the one thing we can all agree on is that we all want a healthy beautiful havanese puppy/dog in the end.:thumb:


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## Wildflower

laneae -- I hope you post a photo of your new baby soon!

Until very, very recently we always planned to go to Marlene for our 2nd puppy when we are ready. Our Holly is one year old now and I'm hoping before her 2nd birthday, she will have a brother or sister. Then earlier this month, I met a couple with a Havanese and have checked out their breeder in So. Dakota and now hope to find a puppy through that breeder when the time comes. 

I watch Marlene's site constantly as well and have also noticed that occasionally the litter is from Christy, her daughter. Everybody I've talked to that got a puppy from her has been quite happy!


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## Posh's Mom

this could possibly be the dam of your dog as the video is from march 2009, so she would have cycled by now...but obviously not passed all of her health tests. 




fortunately it appears that if this is the correct sire of your dog, and he does have a call name of "billy" that he has been tested, at least he was three years ago. he is a dog from a hungarian breeder with the prefix christa's jumpy clown before all of her dogs.
this woman is not marlene's daughter.

glad your pup is nice, but i would most likely not get a pup from marlene, based on this thread and the black and white issue that none of her breeding dogs are listed on offa.org.

here is your sire's health testing link-http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1277458#animal

this is the havanese gallery, where you can find a lot of info on your sire, if the information marlene gave you was legit. i truly hope so.http://www.havanesegallery.hu/show_dog_en.php?id=24057


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## oklandca

laneae, I think I have one of your puppy's littermates. We have Prancer, a black and white male. 

I don't really know anything about the business of breeding, registering, testing, etc. This is our first dog. Were you able to register yours? My numbers show up for the parents, but I'm not having any success with my puppy's number or litter number. I don't have the paper that is shown on the website, just the numbers on the sale contract. Is this something the owner completes and then I would get in the mail? 

What is the purpose of registering the dogs? Is it just if you plan to breed them? Show them? Same question for the testing. We're not planning to do any of that.


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## krandall

oklandca said:


> laneae, I think I have one of your puppy's littermates. We have Prancer, a black and white male.
> 
> I don't really know anything about the business of breeding, registering, testing, etc. This is our first dog. Were you able to register yours? My numbers show up for the parents, but I'm not having any success with my puppy's number or litter number. I don't have the paper that is shown on the website, just the numbers on the sale contract. Is this something the owner completes and then I would get in the mail?
> 
> What is the purpose of registering the dogs? Is it just if you plan to breed them? Show them? Same question for the testing. We're not planning to do any of that.


I got my AKC registration papers filled out with the breeder's information and ready to go when I picked Kodi up.

I guess I'd wonder why anyone who spends the money for a pure bred Havanese (or any other breed for that matter) would not want to spend the extra $20 or so (I forget exactly, but it's cheap) to register their dog.

Also, you think you don't want to show now, but what if, as your puppy's training progresses, you get more interested in Obedience, Rally or Agility? You CAN show an unregistered dog in those sports, but if it's an AKC competition, you could only show your dog as a mixed breed. Why not be able to show your dog as what s/he really is?

If your puppy truly is a purebred, of registered parents, there is absolutely NO reason for the breeder not to WANT you to register your puppy. If they won't help you do this, it's yet another reason to wonder whether they are reputable breeders to start with.


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## fishie

My breeder also had the AKC registration form all filled out with the appropriate information when she delivered Murphy to me. I do know that a friend of mine bought an Aussie from a reputable breeder who had him fill out his information on the forms, and then she sent everything in herself. He received the registration from AKC shortly after. Not sure why she chose to do it that why, but the end result is the same. 

I would definitely get in touch with your breeder to find out why the numbers you were given are not working. I had no problem registering Murphy online using the numbers Kathy had provided. I agree with Karen - if you went out of your way to spend a lot of money on a pure-bred Havanese, why wouldn't you register him/her.


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## Havluv

*wow talk about close....*

I was also doing research on this breeder & almost decided to buy one off of Marlene Nolting but I think I found a good reputable breeder in my area. It will just cost more! $1,800 whew! I am still doing research to make sure though. It kinda sucks cause I fell in love with Marlene's puppies too : ( sooooo cute & I love that she socializes them? I had emailed her important questions that I can't find answers to in her website but never got a response. I tried calling her over and over & she called me back but I got so excited she called back that I forgot to ask her all those questions.... :frusty:


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## oklandca

I'm not saying I don't want to register him.

So it appears that usually the breeder has the akc paperwork started but that it _can_ be done the other way around? I have the litter #, puppy's number, and parents' numbers. Will I be able to do it with just this info?

Is the reason searching the AKC site for the puppy's number doesn't work is just because we haven't done the paperwork?

The problem I had when I was searching the website for more info on the litter is that I needed the certification date and not just the litter number.


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## Kathie

My breeder sent me the AKC registration papers when I showed her proof of Abby's spay. That was in the contract.


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## krandall

Havluv said:


> I was also doing research on this breeder & almost decided to buy one off of Marlene Nolting but I think I found a good reputable breeder in my area. It will just cost more! $1,800 whew! I am still doing research to make sure though. It kinda sucks cause I fell in love with Marlene's puppies too : ( sooooo cute & I love that she socializes them? I had emailed her important questions that I can't find answers to in her website but never got a response. I tried calling her over and over & she called me back but I got so excited she called back that I forgot to ask her all those questions.... :frusty:


$1800 is right in the right ball park for a good quality Havanese puppy.

As far as socialization is concerned... Every reputable breeder should be doing this!!!


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## krandall

oklandca said:


> I'm not saying I don't want to register him.
> 
> So it appears that usually the breeder has the akc paperwork started but that it _can_ be done the other way around? I have the litter #, puppy's number, and parents' numbers. Will I be able to do it with just this info?
> 
> Is the reason searching the AKC site for the puppy's number doesn't work is just because we haven't done the paperwork?
> 
> The problem I had when I was searching the website for more info on the litter is that I needed the certification date and not just the litter number.


I THINK I remember that the breeder needs to sign the form. Otherwise, who is to say you got the puppy by legal means?


----------



## Cailleach

Beanie said:


> Carolyn:
> 
> I purchased Beanie from Marlene whom I had talked to several times; all of her pup parents are tested, and Marlene hand raises them all...Marlene was very kind and informative about her pups...she strives to produce puppies on the smaller end (the truer sized Havanese) of the scale, hence Beanie is about 8lbs and that's about as big as she'll get. I paid $140 to have Beanie flown out to California; Marlene kept her an extra 3 or 4 weeks because we were traveling during the time when she would originally have been flown out (8 weeks of age), so Marlene got her started on potty training etc. Beanie was crate trained of course, and she is a very delightful little puppy. We are completely happy with her.
> 
> Toni


Curious as to when breeding smaller to scale being smaller than breed standards has become truer to current breed standard and why this is considered truer? Can anyone fill me in?


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## fishie

I used the website to register Murphy (https://www.apps.akc.org/dogreg/index.cfm?useraction=route). I was able to do it that way, since Kathy had given me the AKC Dog Registration Application shown on the website, and it contained the PIN needed. Without that PIN, I don't think you can register your puppy online.

I've also talked to other breeders that don't send the registration until you spay/neuter your puppy. Not sure how common that is, but I did see it during my research.

The easiest way to resolve this is to just give the breeder a call, and find out what the deal is. Good luck!


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## krandall

fishie said:


> I used the website to register Murphy (https://www.apps.akc.org/dogreg/index.cfm?useraction=route). I was able to do it that way, since Kathy had given me the AKC Dog Registration Application shown on the website, and it contained the PIN needed. Without that PIN, I don't think you can register your puppy online.
> 
> I've also talked to other breeders that don't send the registration until you spay/neuter your puppy. Not sure how common that is, but I did see it during my research.
> 
> The easiest way to resolve this is to just give the breeder a call, and find out what the deal is. Good luck!


My breeder gave me the form when I picked Kodi up, but had checked off "limited", as according to our contract, he had to be neutered. If I hadn't followed through on my end of the contract, I suppose no one would have known that I hadn't neutered him, but I couldn't have registered his offspring.


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## oklandca

What are the reasons for having a limited registration? Is that if because of the testing they already know it may have genes that shouldn't be passed on? Is it so that they can limit people breeding so there's less competition for them selling? My contract didn't specify if it was limited or full, so just wondering.


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## Julie

Most reputable (all,I'd say) would require a spay/neuter in the contract along with registration. If you buy a pet quality havanese it should be spay/neutered. If you are buying a show puppy then that would be reflected in a contract and you would be paying a higher price for that dog.

This helps protect the breed in the long run and hopefully prevents unwanted litters and back yard breeders from popping up. Generally if you find a havanese puppy that has full registration (breeding rites) run.......chances are that is not a reputable breeder because that puppy would be a show dog.


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## krandall

oklandca said:


> What are the reasons for having a limited registration? Is that if because of the testing they already know it may have genes that shouldn't be passed on? Is it so that they can limit people breeding so there's less competition for them selling? My contract didn't specify if it was limited or full, so just wondering.


My breeder, and many others, charge no more for "show quality" pups sold to pet homes than they do for "pet quality" pups. The reason for limited registrations are many.

1. If you know (or suspect) the puppy is carrying an undesirable gene that cannot be detected through DNA testing.

2. If the puppy is not going to a show/breeding home where the puppy's lines will enhance the buying breeders program.

3. If the breeder doesn't know the new puppy owners well enough to be SURE that they will "finish" (show the dog to its championship) the dog and breed it responsibly. (even then, many breeders will do a co-ownership arrangement so they maintain some control over the dog)

There are actually a lot more dogs who get their championship than should probably be bred. There are MANY more that are un-neutered than should be bred. Responsible breeders don't want their stock to be part of that problem. Good breeders breed only the very best dogs to the very best bitches and make sure the rest (most of them) are neutered.

There is no reason to NOT neuter a dog unless it is to be bred. For the most part, they are easier to handle, better pets and better performance animals (if that's what you're after) if their minds aren't constantly on the opposite sex.

If ALL Hav breeders had enforced limited registrations and had more restrictive contracts, we wouldn't have all the puppy mill and back yard breeder Havs (many with health problems) we have now. The good, ethical breeders don't want to add to that problem!


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## ttutah3

*having some questions with this breeder*

Just a note... I have been watching this site for a while and have noticed many postings about Happy Trails. Just wanted to give a heads up that we are having some paperwork issues with them. I will fill you all in later once it is resolved. Hopefully it is nothing, but it is a bit puzzling. If anyone else knows of other breeds coming out of this breeder, please PM me or let me know.


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## Havluv

*What is up with that breeder?!*

So I went on her website again & noticed she had new puppies.... how often do they have litters!? To me it seems sooo soon to have new ones. Thank you for the info.


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## Havluv

*New puppies again..... ???*

http://www.youtube.com/user/marlene308#p/u


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## ttutah3

*I agree*

I love my puppy... but I think something is up. I am just concerned for the health and well-being of the dogs being bred there. My pup is in excellent health(according to my vet) and is well adjusted, but I think I may have missed some red flags. I should know better... this is not my first purebred dog. I will keep you all in the loop about my situation. I don't want to wrongly accuse this breeder of anything until I have hard facts in hand. I am just not getting a good feeling...


----------



## Havluv

*So has anyone resolved the issues with this breeder?*

I wonder what is going on with her & is she legit. I don't expect her to be amazing especially for that price but at least want to know that she is breeding the dogs humanely & isn't lying about where they are raised etc... Are all your puppies that you all purchased from Happy trails havanese healthy?


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## krandall

It bothers me that all these people have come forward with possible problems with their dogs, but then have never responded saying they've had the situation straightened out. That, to me, would be a HUGE cautionary flag.

The initial cost of your puppy is the LEAST of the money you will spend over the life of the dog. Do what all the experienced people on this AND the other forum have been suggesting. Save your money and buy from a reputable breeder who does things the RIGHT way! A few hundred dollars "saved" now could cost you a huge amount of money, not to mention emotional distress, down the line.

I've made my feelings clear about shipping puppies, and so have a number of other people on both forums. But if you insist on doing that, there is at least one breeder represented by MANY owners on this forum who are all very happy with their dogs, and that's Prairiwinds. I have no idea what they charge for their puppies, but again, this shouldn't be a decision made on the up-front costs.


----------



## Havluv

krandall said:


> It bothers me that all these people have come forward with possible problems with their dogs, but then have never responded saying they've had the situation straightened out. That, to me, would be a HUGE cautionary flag.
> 
> The initial cost of your puppy is the LEAST of the money you will spend over the life of the dog. Do what all the experienced people on this AND the other forum have been suggesting. Save your money and buy from a reputable breeder who does things the RIGHT way! A few hundred dollars "saved" now could cost you a huge amount of money, not to mention emotional distress, down the line.
> 
> I've made my feelings clear about shipping puppies, and so have a number of other people on both forums. But if you insist on doing that, there is at least one breeder represented by MANY owners on this forum who are all very happy with their dogs, and that's Prairiwinds. I have no idea what they charge for their puppies, but again, this shouldn't be a decision made on the up-front costs.


I hope to hear soon that everyone has fixed their situation with this breeder too. It sucks : ( Sorry you guys have to deal with that. I am glad researching a lot ... 
:ear:


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## Suzi

I do not think I would ever want to be a breeder who has more than one litter a year. I can not imagine having my dogs be sold when the bitch is no longer having puppys. I find that weird.

Maybe your breeder has a few females and she is just having more litters.
maybe I did not read the trend right


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## ttutah3

I will respond as soon as I have my bases covered. I do not want to give out too much info in case the breeder is lurking. I did not have my puppy shipped and insisted on meeting him first. I really thought I did my research, but was apparently lied to. I asked many, many questions. I will let everyone know what happens as soon as I get my results back from AKC and DNA tests. I am protecting myself and the puppy at this point. I will not leave everyone hanging on this one. The safety and health of the mothers, fathers, and puppies is of the greatest importance to me.


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## JASHavanese

Beanie said:


> .she strives to produce puppies on the smaller end (the truer sized Havanese) of the scale, hence Beanie is about 8lbs and that's about as big as she'll get.
> 
> Toni


The original standard in this country that Dorothy translated put Havanese between either 7 or 8 pounds up to 13 pounds. Your dog would be on the very small end of that standard (and I do like small Havanese as long as they're in standard). I don't think I agree with the statement that she's breeding the true size but she's coming closer than the 12 inch 18 pound havs out there


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## JASHavanese

fishie said:


> My breeder also had the AKC registration form all filled out with the appropriate information when she delivered Murphy to me. I do know that a friend of mine bought an Aussie from a reputable breeder who had him fill out his information on the forms, and then she sent everything in herself. He received the registration from AKC shortly after. Not sure why she chose to do it that why, but the end result is the same.
> .


She knew nothing could be changed on the paperwork if she sent it in.


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## laneae

ttutah3 said:


> I will respond as soon as I have my bases covered. I do not want to give out too much info in case the breeder is lurking. I did not have my puppy shipped and insisted on meeting him first. I really thought I did my research, but was apparently lied to. I asked many, many questions. I will let everyone know what happens as soon as I get my results back from AKC and DNA tests. I am protecting myself and the puppy at this point. I will not leave everyone hanging on this one. The safety and health of the mothers, fathers, and puppies is of the greatest importance to me.


I feel the exact same way at ttutah and we have had very very similar experiences thus far, and I will state my full story when everything gets sorted out.


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## Suzi

fishie said:


> My breeder also had the AKC registration form all filled out with the appropriate information when she delivered Murphy to me. I do know that a friend of mine bought an Aussie from a reputable breeder who had him fill out his information on the forms, and then she sent everything in herself. He received the registration from AKC shortly after. Not sure why she chose to do it that why, but the end result is the same.
> 
> I would definitely get in touch with your breeder to find out why the numbers you were given are not working. I had no problem registering Murphy online using the numbers Kathy had provided. I agree with Karen - if you went out of your way to spend a lot of money on a pure-bred Havanese, why wouldn't you register him/her.


 You can not register on line if you have limited papers. You have to get them fixed first. Some breeders do not register the puppy's tell you show the prof of spaying from your vet.


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## krandall

Suzi said:


> You can not register on line if you have limited papers. You have to get them fixed first. Some breeders do not register the puppy's tell you show the prof of spaying from your vet.


That's not correct. As far as AKC is concerned... There is no proof of neutering required by AKC. You just can't register any puppies produced by your dog, nor can you compete in conformation classes.

I received my papers for Kodi, with all the breeder information filled in, when I picked him up. That is completely separate from whatever your contract for your breeder says about when/if neutering must occur.


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## Suzi

krandall said:


> That's not correct. As far as AKC is concerned... There is no proof of neutering required by AKC. You just can't register any puppies produced by your dog, nor can you compete in conformation classes.
> 
> I received my papers for Kodi, with all the breeder information filled in, when I picked him up. That is completely separate from whatever your contract for your breeder says about when/if neutering must occur.


 I did not say that the AkC needs proof. I wrote that you can not register them on line. At least I cant because I tried their is a section that has a pin number Called registration pins and if it is limited it covers the pin number . With out that I was unable to register on line.
And I was just thinking that might be why she was having troubles on line. Some breeders hold the paper work to make sure the new owner gets them fixed.

I just read what I wrote and it is confusing. To bad AKC does not require that


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## fishie

You can definitely do limited registration online with the AKC. I'm not sure what work the breeder has to do up front (they have to register the litter and all that), but when my breeder provided me the paperwork, there was a PIN number provided and it was pretty simple form to fill out online.


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## Suzi

I guess my Breeder has not registered the puppy's. Although I could be miss reading it. I will try again.


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## windfallhavs

Not all puppies can be registered online. If there is a lease or two people co-own the dam, for instance, the paperwork may have to be sent to the AKC via snail mail. If there is a registration PIN, then you can put it in and do a limited registration online. What the breeder is blacking out under Limited is the code that you put in to get full registration. There are two different numbers. I am looking at a litter registration paper for a dog that my sister and I co-bred, there is no online registration PIN, the papers have to be sent to AKC. So Suzi may have to send her papers.


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## Havluv

*update?*

Does anyone have UPDATE INFO? Did you all resolve issues with Marlene Nolting? Is happy trails havanese legit or another bad guy in disguise? 
:ear:

You know I found a lot of info on this other place where they claim to not be associated with puppy mills yet they are a puppy mill Affordable pups and I read reviews of some people happy with theire puppy but what about where that puppy came from and what they supported by purchasing that puppy?! I read some news that a horrible woman keeps doing the puppy mill crimes over and over & yeah they are back. : ( I wish people could be warned & cared. : (


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## ttutah3

*still waiting*

HI,

I am one of the three that had issues with this breeder, but I am still awaiting DNA test results on my little guy. I thought the best way to approach all of this would be with evidence in hand. It takes 3-6 weeks to get all of the results back, so hopefully I will know something by then. At this point I am almost certain that I was mislead about the sire of my pup. The DNA test will prove that as well as clear up any other concerns that I have. Hopefully for my sake and all others involved (especially the pups and parents) all will turn out ok. I will post as soon as I know

I agree that it is so very sad that there are so many questionable breeders out there. What happened to the days when we could actually trust someone? Things are definitely changing in the world...so sad


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## Ninja

I'm so sorry to hear about your concerns  I hope everything turns out okay also. I've been following this thread for a while and I really hope she is legit because the last thing needed would be another BYB. Regardless, all the information on this breeder will help those looking to buy a pup. Your little guy is adorable and even if things don't turn out best with the DNA results I'm sure he is still going to be a great hav  

I hope the breeder herself is not reading this thread and keeping an eye out on what to cover up, that is if there even is anything to cover up at all.


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## Havluv

*I talked to someone on youtube Marlene's customer*

I seen that Marlene's youtube page has some people that left comments ect..so I contacted one of them & she was very kind to help me out. She said that after they bought the pup Marlene became impossible to get ahold of. She also noticed her having puppies very often. Supposedly they didn't have problems with the health nor the papers... but she reccomended people go elsewhere. Has anyone noticed that these latest puppies are still on sale...no one has bought from her it seems. Maybe they had some kind of trouble too or read this thread? I know that when I type in happy trails havanese It shows me this among some other threads in Google. I wonder what will happen to the puppies she has now when no one wants to buy from her because they don't trust her?


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## Jill in Mich

If this "Happy Trails" is in any way associates with the "Happy Trails" Kennel in Minnesota it is a very bad thing... 
http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/7158/MN/US/


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## ttutah3

it is not in Minnesota but rather in Iowa. I think all of her pups, or at least some have sold. I think someone on the forum may have just bought one. Her pups sell VERY fast. she usually does not update the website as they sell. I agree that she is very hard to get ahold of after purchase. I will be contacting her again soon. It is possible that she may be "lurking" on this forum... but maybe it will be a heads up to her that many people are figuring out that something is off. Thanks so much for your kind words. I felt so dumb about not doing enough research as I thought I had. She sold me with her kind words and by answering all my tough questions. I learned a lot, and will not be buying from that breeder again. We still love our puppy and nothing will change in that regard.


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## lfung5

My first thought is she is a puppymill broker. I hope I am wrong, but that would explain why she has so many puppies. I do believe, Iowa is a puppy mill state. Every time I've been on her site, I've seen older puppies, maybe 8 weeks old. I don't think I've ever seen a newborn liter or pups that were under 8 weeks old. Brokers usually buy the pups at auction at 6-8 weeks.


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## jillnors2

Ttutah3, your pup looks very pretty, I hope it hasn't had any health problems. I'm curious, what prompted you to get a DNA test?


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## ttutah3

She has posted some around 3-4 weeks, but not a ton.


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## ttutah3

Thanks... he is very sweet... a bit fiesty, but sweet. No health problems, in fact the vet said he is perfect. DNA test is to link him to the sire. Some questions about who his sire is. I am being told one thing by the breeder, AKC site says another. Time will tell.


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## jillnors2

My five month old pup is very fiesty as well. How old is your pup?


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## Suzi

ttutah3 said:


> Thanks... he is very sweet... a bit fiesty, but sweet. No health problems, in fact the vet said he is perfect. DNA test is to link him to the sire. Some questions about who his sire is. I am being told one thing by the breeder, AKC site says another. Time will tell.


 If the Sire came from Europe or out of the country his name would be different on the AKC paper work. For some reason you have to keep that name.


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## ttutah3

the one that was suppose to be the sire did come from Europe, but I know his akc number and show name. That name and number do not match the one listed for my puppy. The breeder told me that it was the same dog, different name, but the AKC customer service confirmed that was not true. Two different dogs completely. At this time a few of us think there was more than one litter born with two different dads. The sire I was told was our puppy's dad is a Eukanuba champion. I do not know a lot about the real father. It would not have been a big deal if i felt I had been told the truth from the beginning. I was told there was one litter of pups, not two... and I was told a particular dog was the father of my dog, and so far that looks to be false as well. It has me concerned about what else might be false. At least, for now anyway, we have a healthy, happy pup. Time will tell on everything else.:frusty:


----------



## Suzi

ttutah3 said:


> the one that was suppose to be the sire did come from Europe, but I know his akc number and show name. That name and number do not match the one listed for my puppy. The breeder told me that it was the same dog, different name, but the AKC customer service confirmed that was not true. Two different dogs completely. At this time a few of us think there was more than one litter born with two different dads. The sire I was told was our puppy's dad is a Eukanuba champion. I do not know a lot about the real father. It would not have been a big deal if i felt I had been told the truth from the beginning. I was told there was one litter of pups, not two... and I was told a particular dog was the father of my dog, and so far that looks to be false as well. It has me concerned about what else might be false. At least, for now anyway, we have a healthy, happy pup. Time will tell on everything else.:frusty:


 That is a drage. How do you go about having a DNA test done?


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## krandall

ttutah3 said:


> the one that was suppose to be the sire did come from Europe, but I know his akc number and show name. That name and number do not match the one listed for my puppy. The breeder told me that it was the same dog, different name, but the AKC customer service confirmed that was not true. Two different dogs completely. At this time a few of us think there was more than one litter born with two different dads. The sire I was told was our puppy's dad is a Eukanuba champion. I do not know a lot about the real father. It would not have been a big deal if i felt I had been told the truth from the beginning. I was told there was one litter of pups, not two... and I was told a particular dog was the father of my dog, and so far that looks to be false as well. It has me concerned about what else might be false. At least, for now anyway, we have a healthy, happy pup. Time will tell on everything else.:frusty:


Not to excuse the breeder for misrepresenting the father of your puppy, but it IS possible to have one litter with two sires. But in this case, the breeder should do the DNA testing to determine the correct sire of each puppy in the litter before they are sold and/or registered.


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## jillnors2

If the sire was imported from Europe, doesn't he have to have DNA testing? I know my pup's mother was imported from Europe and my breeder said she had to have a DNA test on her.


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## ttutah3

I understand that you can have many litters from one sire... the problem is that she keeps saying his dad is Billy (Christa's Jumpy Clown Yank) when in fact the Sire's AKC name and number on my puppy's form are registered to another male havanese. Also, when I asked her point blank about the number of puppies in my boy's litter she said there was only one litter of 8. I have now discovered in talking with others that there were at least 2 litters, both born in October. I am upset that she would lie about the litter number. Why lie about that unless you are trying to hide something?! I would have not questioned it further until i noticed the different AKC names and numbers, and met some other people that bought from her at the same and had the correct akc name and number for Billy. I am not even sure if the dam is the right dam either. I am concerned about health issues etc... 

DNA testing is provided thru the AKC or your vet, depending on the type of testing that you are interested in and what you are looking for. (link to parent, purebred, mixbreed etc)

I am sure that Marlene has heard about all of this by now if she reads the forum, but like I mentioned before, nothing has been proven as of yet and I am only convering my bases. Things just seem fishy.


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## ttutah3

Both sires have DNA on them, intersetingly enough, none of the mother's do. So, there is no way for me to link him to his mother. Wonder why that is????


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## ttutah3

Oops... I get what you are saying about the 2 sires one litter... but I agree if she thought that happened she should have DNA tested... instead she is just saying that all the pups are from Billy.


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## krandall

ttutah3 said:


> Oops... I get what you are saying about the 2 sires one litter... but I agree if she thought that happened she should have DNA tested... instead she is just saying that all the pups are from Billy.


Yeah, it doesn't mean that she didn't mis-represent your pup... or at least confuse the sires. I just wanted to point out that it IS possible that she had ONE litter of 8 pups and that some of them were sired by one of these males and others by the other. As you said, though. she should have done the DNA testing to sort it all out BEFORE selling the pups.


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## ttutah3

She told one of the other gals that there were 8 then changed it later to 4? That is why we are concerned. Our guess right now is that there were two litters of 4 or 5 and 3, or something like that. Also, my puppy has a different litter number than theirs.


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## Havluv

*weird : (*

When I had called her that one time...I had told her I might not make it to buy one of puppies from December cause I am waiting for income tax & she said she wouldn't have any more puppies until May....... STRANGE!!! :brick: Also she told me the price for her puppies $1,000 & about $150 for shipping. ....... At the time that I called her she said she only had 3 puppies left. What is she hidding!? Why would she lie so much


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## krandall

Havluv said:


> When I had called her that one time...I had told her I might not make it to buy one of puppies from December cause I am waiting for income tax & she said she wouldn't have any more puppies until May....... STRANGE!!! :brick: Also she told me the price for her puppies $1,000 & about $150 for shipping. ....... At the time that I called her she said she only had 3 puppies left. What is she hidding!? Why would she lie so much


Why would she sell puppies for $1000? If she's selling them for that price, she's losing a HUGE amount of money (like half) in each puppy... OR she's not doing what she SHOULD do to make sure she's producing good quality puppies.


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## ttutah3

We paid 1200 and I am sure there will be more pups!!!!


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## Havluv

*Any updates?*

have you got the dna test back? :ear:
Hope everything turned out ok.


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## Ninja

Still wondering if everything was sorted out okay?


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## ttutah3

we had two tests ran, one to make sure he was pure hav and another to figure out the sire. The one to see if he is pure hav came back with good news... he is!!! He has some German Bichon in him (cannot remember the breed name) but my vet warned me even before the results came in to expect some Bichon. I figured that as I know Havanese are part of the Bichon family. The percentage in his blood line was small. I am still waiting on the sire test,but I already know the answer in my heart and from doing my research. Not sure how I will proceed after the results come in and if they are what I fear.

BTW she has new pups on her site and she is expecting more in a few weeks...Crazy!!!!


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## Bellatrixed

Wow, I just read this whole thread--that's a very crazy situation. I hope you get everything straightened out, ttutah3. I am very happy with the breeder I got my Havanese from, but I know all too well the horrors of buying dogs from iffy breeders. Years ago, my family bought a Cocker Spaniel from what seemed to be a reputable breeder. We loved her so much that we got another Cocker puppy from the breeder, and then a few years later, a Cockapoo puppy (I normally hate the idea of designer dogs, but I wanted something hypoallergenic, and we thought very highly of the breeder). Despite these dogs' parents having health testing on file, Cocker #1 developed epilepsy, Cocker #2 has terrible luxating patellas, and the Cockapoo just died from severe pancreatitis. So there's obviously something horribly fishy with that breeder--the odds are just way too high for three dogs from the same breeder to have three different bad health problems. The whole thing has been very emotionally exhausting, and all that health testing didn't save the health of these dogs. I suppose you could factor in the fact Cocker Spaniels have a very high number of diseases they are predisposed to, but honestly... it's way too fishy for me.

I do have to speak up in regards to the $1,000 being viewed as fishy though. The cost for the puppy shouldn't be the indicator of quality. Mine was $1,000, and it's more than I've ever paid for a purebred dog--the others have all been $300-$500 (though they were Cocker Spaniels and Bichon Frise). Perhaps it's a regional thing, but where I live and with the state of the economy... $1,000 is extremely expensive for a dog! I find it a far better sign of a good breeder if they are willing to be flexible/mid-range on the price in order to find the dog a good home, than to try to milk every penny they can out of the sale of the dog. Most puppy mills I've seen have been incredibly pricey. I found a website of Havanese selling for $1,800-$2,500 and instantly left the site. It instantly sends up red flags to me, but everyone is different.


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## Rita Nelson

Christina, I think you'll find that most of the breeders supported by people on this forum charge in the neighborhood of $2,000 for a Havanese puppy. Even at that price with ALL that's involved in breeding great, healthy dogs to ensure quality through out the breed, those breeders are not making much of a profit if any at all. They're doing it for the loved of the breed.


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## Bellatrixed

I understand that some breeders who charge in the neighborhood of $2,000 are totally legit and have their price for legit reasons. All I meant is that price isn't an indicator of quality on either side of the spectrum. I have seen very, very many BYBs charging $2,000+ for puppies who attempt to use the price tag to look legit. I've been looking for a Hav for years, and the number of breeders I contacted selling puppies for $2,000, without any form of health testing whatsoever, with parents who were not involved in the show world at all, and who had puppies available "all year" was astounding.

Then on the flipside, my girl for $1,000 came from a woman who has been involved with the breed since before they were AKC recognized, who shows the parents and only has one to three litters a year. The woman's rationale behind the price is that she cared far more about her pups finding a good, responsible owner than about jacking up the price. They only puppies she charged $2,000+ for were the older show prospects that she sold with a co-ownership until they were proven.

Then there's the fact that many people literally would not be able to just save up $2,000 for a pet when you can find so many dogs for cheaper. I knew a family that wanted a Havanese, but got so discouraged by the cost that they just bought a mix for $100 instead. That sort of thing makes me sad. Pretty much everyone I know is in a financial crunch. I agree that the initial cost of the dog shouldn't be the *sole *factor, but it is still a factor for very many families. That's all I meant.  It just varies from breeder to breeder.


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## krandall

Bellatrixed said:


> I understand that some breeders who charge in the neighborhood of $2,000 are totally legit and have their price for legit reasons. All I meant is that price isn't an indicator of quality on either side of the spectrum. I have seen very, very many BYBs charging $2,000+ for puppies who attempt to use the price tag to look legit. I've been looking for a Hav for years, and the number of breeders I contacted selling puppies for $2,000, without any form of health testing whatsoever, with parents who were not involved in the show world at all, and who had puppies available "all year" was astounding.
> 
> Then on the flipside, my girl for $1,000 came from a woman who has been involved with the breed since before they were AKC recognized, who shows the parents and only has one to three litters a year. The woman's rationale behind the price is that she cared far more about her pups finding a good, responsible owner than about jacking up the price. They only puppies she charged $2,000+ for were the older show prospects that she sold with a co-ownership until they were proven.
> 
> Then there's the fact that many people literally would not be able to just save up $2,000 for a pet when you can find so many dogs for cheaper. I knew a family that wanted a Havanese, but got so discouraged by the cost that they just bought a mix for $100 instead. That sort of thing makes me sad. Pretty much everyone I know is in a financial crunch. I agree that the initial cost of the dog shouldn't be the *sole *factor, but it is still a factor for very many families. That's all I meant.  It just varies from breeder to breeder.


I agree completely that a high price doesn't, in itself, mean that it's a good dog or good breeder... pet shops tend to charge a lot of money even for "designer dogs" with no breeding at all.<g>

However, if your breeder is REALLY doing all necessary health testing on her breeding stock,a s well as showing them to their championships before breeding, (and waiting until they are at least 2 to breed, since they need to be 2 before you can check their hips) AND selling her pups for $1000 each, you are indeed very VERY lucky to have found a breeder willing to subsidize your purchase by about half. There aren't many breeders who have the financial where-with-all to lose close to $1000 on each puppy they sell. Most good breeders aren't in it for the money, but they have to come CLOSE to breaking even or they can't afford to keep going.

ETA: For people who cannot afford a puppy from a good breeder, or who just want to do a good turn, there are LOTS of wonderful Havs in Havanese Rescue just waiting for their forever homes! You do NOT have to pay a lot of money to enjoy a wonderful pet Hav.


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## Tigers Mommy

*Tiger was purchased from Marlene March of 2008*

I dont know why I didnt look further in the forums when we 1st started to see a problem with our Tiger. Tiger was purchased from Marlene in March of 2008, and he seemed to be perfect...but then he didnt seem to stop growing when he reached the Standard Havanese size...He now weighs over 20 lbs and is the size of a cocker. I emailed Marlene several times using the same email address that I used when I purchased him, but she never replied. Then I noticed Tiger's daddy was no longer on her site, so I again emailed her wondering what happened to him. At age 2 we started to notice one of his legs looked funny and it looked crooked. Our vet told us not to be too concerned, he may have injured his growth plate when he was younger...He said not to worry since it didnt seem to bother Tiger and he didnt seem to be in pain. I then logged into this site after being away for awhile & came across some that were discussing Chondrodysplasia (CD) & saw some pictures which freaked me out and scared me. I logged out & stayed away until now. Now Tiger is 3 1/2 and the leg is a lot worse. It bows out above his elbow then twists out from there. He looks goofy, but again he is our baby, Mr. Crooked Leg, that his new name, LOL. Our vet doesnt seem to be too concerned. I did do some more research and I really do believe thats whats wrong with Tiger. I have emailed Marlene again to see if any other of her puppy owners had reported to her that theirs had the same problem. I will now wait to see if she will repond. I am attaching a pic or 2 to show how crooked it is...Our groomer tries to clip it so to hide the crookedness, but its almost the shape of a "S" & toes turn out. He still doesnt show signs that it bothers him other than tripping once in awhile, but he can still run like a bat out of... The last photo is from last year. You can see that his toes are facing forward not out to the side as they are now...


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Such a pretty little Hav. That is the problem, once we see the problems it is too late..we are in love...as we should be. Every little dog deserves love and I wish there were a world where each one had his/her own lap...the best you can do is get references. I think you can find a reputable Hav breeder who will sell you a pet for 1,000. I am not so sure that would include transportation. And it is always nice to be able to visit the breeder. I on the other hand have seen many stories about breeders who won't return calls once the puppies are sold...so recommendations go a long way in making a good decision. Actually right now there are many breeds selling in the 1700 range, even some of the designer puppies..but price is not what you should go by...personal recommendations and you can get many here, are the best way to go!


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## Tigers Mommy

*There are Good Breeders Out there - You just have to be Patient*

Even though we are having problems with Tiger...we just couldnt resist...You Just Cant Have 1 Havanese! I found a wonderful, smaller breeder in Iowa & I joined her at a Dog Show. I fell in love with the female that she was showing...she smiles when you pet her and she had a beautiful coat. Tammy, the breeder, was showing Sadie to earn her points. She did not breed her until she had gotten all her points. I had to be patient, but we are now owners of one of Sadies puppies...Beau is now 7 months old and he is the size that a Havanese is suppose to be. And I know if we would have any problems with him...I know she would respond and talk to me. I do know she cares. Now she is the Breeder I would alway want to work with...To Bad I didnt find her before, but then we wouldnt have our Tiger... I am so glad I came accross Tammy and her puppies tho.


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## Julie

After reading this--I just thank my lucky stars 5 years ago when I was looking at her puppies she had sold the one I was interested in. It was fate I guess...and although I took the harder route...I am so greatful I did.

I wish you all the best with Tiger. Where are you located in Iowa? Who is your breeder? Tammy what? I haven't heard of hardly any breeders in our state that were not back yard breeders/ mills.


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## Tigers Mommy

We live in a small town, 12 miles outside of Des Moines and the breeder that we found and we really like, is Tammy Stanerson located in North English, IA. Near Williamsburg, IA. Her Web Site is tlchavanese.net. She currently does not have any puppies for sale but Sadie (Beau's Mommy) is expecting again. With Tiger, I just want to know if I am right in my diagnosis but I also would like to know what I need to watch for. I want to know if thats why Cowboy, Tigers daddy, is no longer on Marlene's web site. What happened to him? I have read a lot of articles that are very scarey about CD, but I did find one that was put out by a Vet which stated a diagnosis does not mean the dog is doomed with all the other illnesses. This article indicates that same thing that our vet has told us. Not to Worry unless it starts to bother Tiger. And to stay observant to Tigers health. My 1st dog was a Schnauzer (sp?) and he had a Liver disease that caused him to have seizures for years until he passed...I dont want anything like this to happen to Tiger...It was awful to watch...


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## Julie

We are just a couple hours apart. I live 2 hours north of DesMoines. Small world,huh?

I have not heard of TLC Havanese,but if you are happy with her,that is what counts. 

I have watched Marlene's website for the past 5 years. I remember Cowboy being on there. I see puppies are available all the time there. It didn't used to be like that,from my own observations...but now--there is always a pup to be had. Just from following the site and looking at pictures etc. I see that her daughter,Christy has joined her in breeding now and sometimes it is noted that these puppies are Christy's. Christy's seem to be on the smaller side. IDK-----it is kinda scary though.

If your vet has told you not to worry about Tiger --that he is doing well....then trust him. All the stuff about CD is real,but not a given. Just because Tiger may have bent legs,it is not a death wish. Preston..Paige's boy on here...has bent legs and he is doing well. He has not had all the other stuff associated with CD that they speak of. Try not to worry too much---:hug:


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## rdanielle

Beau is a doll! Glad you found a good breeder  My friend got a gorgeous red show pup from Maddie's last litter. I saw Maddie a show in Columbia, MO & she's the prettiest red Hav I've seen


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## Tigers Mommy

Yeah, when I first met Tammy, at the dog show in Des Moines, she was meeting a family after the show that was interested in one of her puppys, I think they were Maddies puppies. They were so cute...Thats what started me on the mission of wanting my 2nd Havanese...LOL Plus, I was allowed to carry Sadie to her car and fell in lover with her smile and her silky black hair. I told Tammy at that time I wanted one of Sadies puppies when she was ready to have a litter of her own. I wanted a girl tho, but I got 3 out of the 4 things I was looking for...a black coat like his mommy's, a smile like his mommys, and small like his mommy. Hes My baby.Tiger was mine but he prefers my husband instead...and I mean Tiger is his dog. Tiger doesnt care if I am around or not, but if his Daddy leaves just to go out and get the mail, Tiger flips out like hes never coming back...LOL


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## Tigers Mommy

Here is another thing that makes me wonder about where Tiger came from. Maybe someone has seen this before. When Tiger was still a puppy he found a pair of old slippers that are the shape of a Duck. He of course had to De-Gutted them 1st, but he will sit four long periods of time, totally soaking the Ducks Wing with his slobber and then starts sucking on it while he kneeds it with his paws. Like a puppy when they are nursing. Tiger still does it to this day. I dont know what we will do if something happens to his Ducks. Is this a sign that he was taken away from his mommy too soon? He was born 12-22-07 and we got him 3-2008, so I think he was old enough when we got him, but maybe he was pulled from her too soon? Or maybe it just the Tiger Thing LOL. Up until now, I have defended Marlene when it comes to my husband and his doubts of her Breeding standards. But maybe he has been right all along. Oh by the way, its been now 48 hours since I sent her the email and I have not heard anything back. I am using the same email address that we used when we purchased Tiger...Hmmmm? The picture below is him and his duck...when I was taking this pic he was boofing at me and giving me the look of "leave me alone, I am meditating". You can also see the crookedness of his leg in this pic too.


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## krandall

Tigers Mommy said:


> I have read a lot of articles that are very scarey about CD, but I did find one that was put out by a Vet which stated a diagnosis does not mean the dog is doomed with all the other illnesses. This article indicates that same thing that our vet has told us. Not to Worry unless it starts to bother Tiger. And to stay observant to Tigers health. My 1st dog was a Schnauzer (sp?) and he had a Liver disease that caused him to have seizures for years until he passed...I dont want anything like this to happen to Tiger...It was awful to watch...


In the best of all worlds, we would not have CD in the breed. Good breeders are working diligently to breed away from it by carefully evaluating their dogs before breeding. But even from good breeders, CD puppies DO occasionally show up. The important thing is that these puppies not be bred, and their parents looked at closely in terms of future breedings. (IMO, they should be neutered)

That said, CD is NOT necessarily a death sentence, or even a sure bet that the dog will have problems in life. there are lots of old, pet Havs with crocked legs and no other problems! I would never BUY a puppy with crooked legs, (or buy from a breeder who doesn't fully health test their dogs) but I agree with you vet, if I already owned one, I'd take one day at a time, WATCH for health problems, but not fret about it unless they showed up. Tiger sounds like a delightful member of your family, so just enjoy him for who he is!


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## Tigers Mommy

*I would say to Tiger, "sure wait til your warantee runs out then develope a problem"*

Oh, no, when purchasing both dogs it was part of the contract that they be neutered. I had no problem with that, but Tiger is now 3 1/2 and we didnt start seeing the problem until a year ago. Thats why I 1st questioned if this was the problem or not, most of the articles states that CD will show up between the age of 6 months to a year. Oh, and the Breeder that Tiger came from told me and also has on her Web Site that she does test her Adult dogs. Tiger had a 2 year warantee too...We didnt question anything because we thought this was assuance we were getting a health dog...


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## krandall

Two year warranties are basically useless. Who ever would return their dog at that point? Responsible breeders stand by their puppies that develop heritable (non-geriatric, non-injury) problems whenever they happen.


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## dodrop82

Nobody would return their dog after 2 years! At that point, it's about help with vet bills!


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## Tigers Mommy

I agree. I couldnt return Tiger, I just wish she, the breeder, would show some concern and respond to my emails. But no, I dont think she will do that because it would mean she would have to explain...Her last words with me was "if you have any problems or concerns, please let me know" Ha! Then I handed over the check and she was Poof! Gone!


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## Beanie

*Sorry, got busy!*



lfung5 said:


> Oh boy. I was afraid of this. This breeder looked very suspicious to me. In fact, Beanie's mom was pretty agitated with some of our concerns. She said she would call Marlene and ask about health testing. She never got back to us to report her finding. That speaks volumes to me. I hope you uncover the truth. Sorry you have to go through this. Thanks for posting, because this is a learning curve for a lot of us.


Not at all "agitated". And my lack of follow through shouldn't "speak volumes" about anything except that I lack follow through...here's Marlene's email: [email protected]; and phone number: 1-712-648-2150...anyway, I think you guys should call because you know what to ask; I'm sure we can get this discussion out of the realm of "slam the breeder hour" by simply emailing/calling. Sorry I was lax.. I am working on a Master's degree! BTW, Beanie turned two yesterday; no health problems...great dog.


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## Beanie

I just sent Marlene an email telling her to go to this thread...maybe she will reply...and answer all of our questions...meanwhile...here is Beanie.


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## Tigers Mommy

Ok, I took your advise, I sent my email"s" that I sent prior to the email address you provided. All I want to know why my Tiger has a leg that looks like the CD pics. Its not bashing its inquiring. This is our Baby and his health that we are talking about. I just want some answers to my questions. Lets just see what happens from here.


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## dodrop82

Happy Birthday, Beanie!!!!! Yogi turned 2 on May 25th! She is the most healthy and wonderful dog I have ever had! I love her more then words can say!!!!! I hope all continues to be wonderful for our beautiful girls!!! Hahahaha! Have a wonderful 3rd year, Dear Beanie!!!!!!!!!!!


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## dodrop82

Beanie looks alot like Yogi, doesn't she? Yogi is the one in my avatar....She is pure love and goodness. I pray she lives a long happy life of nothing but goodness......and I pray for that, for all of the pups, of all of my friends here on the forum......


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## Beanie

*Crooked feet and legs...*



Tigers Mommy said:


> Ok, I took your advise, I sent my email"s" that I sent prior to the email address you provided. All I want to know why my Tiger has a leg that looks like the CD pics. Its not bashing its inquiring. This is our Baby and his health that we are talking about. I just want some answers to my questions. Lets just see what happens from here.


Dear Tigers Mommy:
Did you see the picture of Beanie? She has two outward pointing feet that are endearing, but maybe not the best structurally...still; every Havi I've seen has this anomaly! Also, I know a local Havanese who has the same crook in his leg. My friend owns him; he is about 15 lbs and his left leg bows out just like Tiger's. I will try to get a picture on here of him. She got him from a very reputable breeder who posted tests on www.offa.org. and paid about $2,000 for him... I just think that breeders can't always tell what they will get when they breed these dogs...there are always throwbacks and strange gene combinations...perfect AKC standard dogs are not always 100% possible due to random combination of genes. And the fact that these dogs come from only 11 in the U.S. leads me to believe that there are even more possibilties for inbreeding 'errors'. Still, I hope you get this issue resolved!!


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## Beanie

*Yogi: Beanie's Half Sister*



dodrop82 said:


> Beanie looks alot like Yogi, doesn't she? Yogi is the one in my avatar....She is pure love and goodness. I pray she lives a long happy life of nothing but goodness......and I pray for that, for all of the pups, of all of my friends here on the forum......


Yogi is BYOOOTEE FUL! I would like to have you send her out to California for a playdate with Beanie!!!!


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## Beanie

*Miss Beanie of Sawmill Road*

Here's Miss Beanie close to her 2nd birthday just home from the groomers...


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## dodrop82

She don't go anywhere without her Momma! Hahahahaha!!!!!!!!! When do you want us!? Tee HeeHee!!!


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## Tigers Mommy

*Tigers leg as time has gone on*

This is just to show the change over the 3 1/2 years. The 1st pic he is around 2 2009, the 2nd pic is last summer 2010, and the final 2 are current pics 2011. Its getting worse as time goes on.


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## krandall

Have you taken him to an orthopedist? Maybe a specialist could help determine whether this is really CD or could have been caused by an injury. I'm certainly not an expert, but my understanding was that this was something that developed while the dog was still growing. In your first photo, he's got enough hair on his legs that you really can't tell whether the are completely straight, but the leg is also clearly not bent to anything like the degree it is now. And by 2, he should have been physically mature.


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## Tigers Mommy

*Still no response to my email & call.*



Tigers Mommy said:


> Ok, I took your advise, I sent my email"s" that I sent prior to the email address you provided. All I want to know why my Tiger has a leg that looks like the CD pics. Its not bashing its inquiring. This is our Baby and his health that we are talking about. I just want some answers to my questions. Lets just see what happens from here.


I just wanted to let the ones interested know, I still have not received any responses to my emails or call that I left back on May 27, 20011. Even using a different email address it did not get a reply. Makes me wonder... And,

Krandall, thanks for the advise, I know I could take him to a Ortho and I will if it looks like it is getting worse or bothers Tiger. I just know the closest one is so expensive to just walk in the door. And I know one of the 1st questions they are going to ask, "is there any history..." where did Tiger come from from?..." My answer is going to be "I dont know and I cant get any answers". Anyway, If my vet says to not to worry for now, I will, I just thought I could get some answers of any possible history...and an answer to what happened to Cowboy (Tigers father).


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## pjewel

Tiger is too cute. I hope his leg doesn't give him any problems as time goes on. You can always have it checked out if it does.


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## kellymcdaniel

If you are receiving this correspondence, it’s because you are a friend or acquaintance of Kevin and Sandy McCabe (Heartland Labradors, Heartland Havanese), located in Clare, Iowa. I’m writing to alert you of their unscrupulous business practices.

It has been over 7 years since I entered an oral contract with the McCabes, and they have not maintained their end of the agreement. Please be cautious, I was taken for $1000. If you have any questions, or ideas of how I may recoup my losses please don’t hesitate to contact me at 662.684.9019. I also have every email correspondence, receipt, delivery confirmation, certified mail receipt, etc. pertaining to the case. 

In February 2004, I purchased a yellow lab bitch from the McCabes for $1000. I was on a wait list for several months, and spoke with Kevin numerous times regarding the multi-purpose labrador my lifestyle required (obedience, hunt tests, conformation showing). I flew from South Carolina to pick up the puppy in Clare, Iowa, in addition to meeting Kevin and touring his kennel. I specifically requested a contract on the day I picked up the puppy, but Kevin assured me he would “take care of me” if the “puppy didn’t turn out.” He also said “a contract is only as good as the people who sign it.” 

In April 2005 it was obvious the bitch was not was not developing into a conformation specimen. I sent numerous pictures every month, and discussed my concerns about the lack of pigment on her nose, thin coat and tail and “legginess.” I spoke with Kevin over the phone, and he said he did not want me to show the bitch. He explained that their Hearland kennel name was on her, and they did not want her in the ring due to her faults. Kevin asked if I would be willing to return the bitch for a replacement puppy who would be better suited for the conformation ring. I agreed, and the bitch was returned. I invested thousands of dollars in the bitch due to the 4 mos. of professional field training she received. She was ready to compete in Junior level hunt tests and earn her Companion Dog obedience title (I have receipts for the 4 mos. of field training).

In December 2005 I received the replacement puppy. She was extremely intelligent and trainable, and with my training, earned the first leg of her Companion Dog title at 6 mos. old. Unfortunately, she also began showing signs of Exercise Induced Collapse at this time. Every time she was exposed to 20 minutes of exercise (retrieving, playing with other dogs, running on the beach, etc.) she would loose coordination in her rear end, collapse, and drag herself around by her front legs. She was not painful or unconscious during the episodes. It was impossible to take her swimming due to the concern she would have an episode and drown. Her episodes were observed by two field trainers and three veterinarians. I also had her hips radiographed, which ruled out hip problems. Exercise induced collapse is a GENETIC disorder predominately seen in labradors (there are videos of it on the internet). This meant I would not be able to use her for hunting, hunt tests, conformation showing or breeding. She was returned to the McCabes in the summer of 2006.
I have NUMEROUS emails from the McCabes. A May 30, 2006 email states they will give me an 8 week old puppy or $300. I elected for a puppy replacement, and was told they would contact me in the fall. On August 14, 2007 Sandy sent me an email saying she will refund $500. When I write back explaining I paid $1000, raised and TRAINED 2 puppies, and will not accept $500, she replies on August 20, 2007 with: 
“We are now going to give you a replacement with no guarantees we are no longer offering the $500. Contact AKC we already have...Contact the Parent club we already have that is most of the breeders that I contacted. Do you think that breeders haven’t spent thousands of dollars with dogs that didn’t turn out? This doesn’t come easy. I can give you a list when we first started of dogs that didn’t turn out and we never got more than 1 dog for replacement.” 
I called the McCabes and sent them numerous emails and certified letters (I have all emails & certified letter receipts) between 2007 and present. It takes me numerous emails, letters, and phone calls in order to receive a response. They refuse to call me, and their emails are nasty. A December 20, 2010 email states:
“...since there is no contract its not good for us or for you. Talking with lab breeders who are still showing most are giving no guarantees. Everyone who has shown dogs for a few years all have, dogs that are not replaced, stud services never took or replaced, semen that was never shipped. I can’t tell you the thousand of thousands of dollars we are out of and the years with dogs that didn’t turn out.” 
My most recent correspondence with the McCabes was earlier this week. I kindly reminded Sandy I am still waiting for my replacement puppy, confronted her about the fact I’ve been told by 6 different sources that they are no longer breeding labs, and asked her if this could be handled in a timely manner. Her reply on August 8, 2011:
“I thought I had explained this to you, you need to go and read your contract. ....when we have another litter and that I cannot tell you when (one year, two year, three years or five) ...I will not go over the breeders, who we got a puppy from that weren’t replaced because of eyes, or hips second dog health issues...a few breeders stopped breeding because of one reason or another....we still have stud services own to us we will never be able to get. THIS IS THE DOG SHOW WORLD.”
I reminded Sandy I do not have a contract, and I don’t think it’s fair to ask a buyer to wait 7, 10 or 15 years for a replacement puppy! She replied, “I’m sorry you don’t have any kind of contract with us. Sandy” 

I am currently a third year veterinary student. I have a 12 and 13 year old lab, both whom are in excellent health. I put all the titles on my dogs, and they have their CD, CDX, JH, CGC, TDI. I did sent one of my girls to a trainer for her SH. 

I don’t appreciate the lack of respect, morals, values, and ethics the McCabes have demonstrated. The dog show world has a less than perfect reputation due to unethical, money hungry breeders. My goal is to enlighten future prospective buyers so they don’t endure the same fiasco, and I will NOT stop until the McCabes have satisfied their original agreement.


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## Tigers Mommy

I haven't been on this forum for a year or so, but why did this discussion come to a sudden halt? Did it move to another thread or discussion? How did the DNA test come out for ttutah3s Hav? Just wondering what caused the abrupt End to this conversation. Just curious.


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## dodrop82

Good question! I have no idea why we didn't get the end to the story?!


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## Tracy

*Tracy*

I look through the internet often to check pictures of new puppies, in hopes of finding a mate for my little Colby...and then I see that some one has posted a friend of mine as a possible puppy mill......I guarentee that Happy Trails Havanese is NOT that....Marlene Nolting is a great breeder and tests all of her adults Baer and Cerf.....so before you go spouting off...you should do a bit of research!!!


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