# A vet can spot a hobby breeder...



## Chasing Mayzie (Aug 16, 2016)

This board seems to be full of kind, not judgmental yet helpful folk, so I am going to post this story so your thoughts can be helpful to me and others in my shoes.

I talked to Mayzie's seller originally about a different Hav. She said she didn't have that one any more, but she had Mayzie from another litter she was planning to keep (it'd have to be more money of course, she was going to show this one, she had "champion pedigree", etc.). I went around and round for a few weeks and ultimately called her and took her. The breeder (a groomer) brought her to me, a 2.5 hour drive one way. She had a story about the AKC papers having a glitch and gave me 2 different birthdays, and gave me a piece of paper with the stickers she'd peeled off the vaccination bottles and stuck on it and 3 dates she said the dog was wormed written down. 

Well, I took Mayzie to the vet yesterday, and he said the puppy looked "mature" for her age. She was 6 pounds (IDK if that's big for 12 weeks), and said the infection in her ears had been there a long time. He said her stool smear showed roundworm eggs, hookworm eggs, and some unusual protozoa that suggested there were a lot of dogs wherever Mayzie was from (my impression was that it wasn't consistent with a groomer's). He said he didn't want to plant doubt in my mind, but it would be unusual for the stool to appear as it did with 3 wormings on those dates. He vaccinated her for bordetella and told me to come back in a week and he'd think about what vacs she needs. He isn't convinced she had the vaccinations that the stickers showed, I believe. He had to pull the hair out of her ears, and even though he is an unsmiling 80+ year old grump, he smiled and let her lick his face (even though pulling the hair hurt) and remarked what a sweet personality she had, consistent with her breed.

I know I made mistakes, of course, knew when I was making them, but deemed it worth it to save $1400 by buying a pet from a hobby breeder who, after all "isn't a mill". She swears the AKC papers will be here soon, and I hope so. But I don't know many ways to determine age, and I definitely don't know if the stickers from the bottle are an unusual thing. I don't know what the vet will suggest about vaccinations next week either. And is 6 pounds big for a Hav born June 4 (or perhaps May 23...)


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Your vet sounds like he cares for the animals. And it sounds like Mayzie is a sweetie.

There is a wide range in weights among Havanese, and I wouldn't necessarily take that as an estimate on age. The vet may have seen other signs, though-like teeth and bone development?

I don't understand about "stickers from the bottle," but if the vet decides she needs more vaccinations be sure to have them given singly and spaced apart by a couple of weeks, at least. 

Good luck, keep us posted on what you learn. 

By the way, I believe there are some very good Hobbie Breeders. It depends on your definition. The place that Mayzie came from sounds like a puppy mill, from the vet's assessment.


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

Ditto to what Sheri said. When I hear hobby breeders, I think of low-scale breeders with only a handful of dogs in the house and very few litters a year. More often that not it is folks who are showing locally with quality dogs over quantity who lose money breeding and lead humble lives. I believe you are thinking of the term 'commercial breeder', especially given the fact that he thinks she comes from a place with lots of dogs. That isn't a hobby; that is someone using dogs as a source of revenue and selling them in a very shady manner.

I hope things figure themselves out, but nothing about the woman you got her from sounds right. Enjoy your little sweetie! She's darling


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## Chasing Mayzie (Aug 16, 2016)

I appreciate these comments because they are teaching comments, and those are good for me and the world. 

I put "isn't a mill" in quotes because that was my mindset at the moment, from what she told me. Being from Oklahoma, we have a lot of families who have farm animals and occasionally have a litter of dogs (usually birddogs, though); that's what I think of as a hobby breeder. Someone who isn't damaging the breed simply because they're producing only a litter every couple of years and giving them to their cousins or something. I agree that the vet is giving signs that things weren't as I thought.

I should have titled this thread something differently, like "a vet can spot a lousy breeder".

Is it wrong that I'm still glad I got her so that I can protect her now?

Thank you for the mention of teeth and bones as signs of age. She does have all of her baby teeth the vet said.


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## boomana (Jul 9, 2015)

When I got my Lola, she was 6.5 pounds at 11 weeks. She was a big puppy. She's a small but stocky little dog today, weighing more than most Havanese, but same in stature to the others I know in the park. 

I'd follow your vet's recommendations regarding what to do. No matter the situation she came from, you brought her to a wonderful life.


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## Hava Novice (Aug 30, 2016)

Poor little Mayzie! I am sorry she has an ear infection, and is wormy.
Oreo was born June 8, and had only had his first shots when we got him a week ago today. The breeder said he was due for the second shots this week. She did give me a vaccination record, although it was from a mobile vet, and not very easy to read. He weighed 4.08 lbs when we were at the vet, one day shy of 12 weeks. I didn't have a clue if that was a typical weight or not either.
Good luck getting everything cleared up!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

The term "Hobby Breeder" is one I've not heard often before, and probably hard to put a definition to. Even though Havanese are more than a full time job for Pam, if you were to look at our Schedule C for the dogs, it would look like we are hobby breeders.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

It sounds like Maysie came from a not-so-great breeder, or more likely, a broker posing as a breeder. (Especially as you never met the parents or saw where the puppies were being raised... It's common ruse) 

That said, she's yours now, you are bonding with her, and disposition is important. While she has some things that need to be sorted out by the vet, it doesn't sound like anything life-threatening or terribly expensive to cure. 

Her size is not out of line... If she's really 12 weeks old, she'll be on the larger side, but probably not enormous. Kodi was 6 lbs at 11 weeks, from an excellent breeder. He's on the large side, but still within standard. As far as the papers go, if you get them, great. But the whole thing sounds shady. OTOH, I assume (I hope!) you bought her as a pet, and plan to spay her. If so, it really doesn't matter that much if she has her papers or not. 

Keep her, love her and learn from your mistake. When you get your next Havanese (or other pure bred dog) you will know to take more care in choosing and investigating the breeder, and will make a wiser choice. When we know better, we do better!


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## Chasing Mayzie (Aug 16, 2016)

Tom King said:


> The term "Hobby Breeder" is one I've not heard often before, and probably hard to put a definition to. Even though Havanese are more than a full time job for Pam, if you were to look at our Schedule C for the dogs, it would look like we are hobby breeders.


If that's the case, then I most definitely chose the wrong term. I should have said "backyard breeder". I think you and your wife are primo breeders. I almost named my puppy Twinkle after your beautiful Hav!


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## Chasing Mayzie (Aug 16, 2016)

krandall said:


> It sounds like Maysie came from a not-so-great breeder, or more likely, a broker posing as a breeder. (Especially as you never met the parents or saw where the puppies were being raised... It's common ruse)
> 
> That said, she's yours now, you are bonding with her, and disposition is important. While she has some things that need to be sorted out by the vet, it doesn't sound like anything life-threatening or terribly expensive to cure.
> 
> ...


I hadn't thought about her being a broker, but that would make sense...she is a groomer, and she brought a person with her who she said owned the mother (and she showed me a picture), and I Know she didn't own the father, so broker would make sense.

Meanwhile, Mayzie is doing great on her housebreaking, sit, off, and (lay)down, and bring. I will spay her when she loses her baby teeth, then her side teeth, and around the time her canines come out (the vet said)...before her first heat. I've never bred a dog, and though it used to be on my bucket list to breed just one litter, I took it off after I learned a bit.

I am curious what to do about her shots. The vet will decide. I don't know whether to believe she really received the shots on the paper or not. It seems likely that she hadn't ever seen a vet though. It seems like the groomer must have given her those shots. She still has her dewclaws.

Meanwhile, have a happy weekend, love Mayzie!


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## boomana (Jul 9, 2015)

Think of her as your little rescue. Clearly she hit the jackpot with you, and she's no longer in bad conditions. Over the years, that $1400 will mean nothing.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I can't remember all the stats like Pam can. Our benchmark for large size was our girl Emmie. Pam says she weighed 6lb. 8 oz. at 12 weeks, and 8lb. 6 oz. at 16 weeks. Her top weight was 14 pounds, and was our largest breeding dog. She lived to be 17, or close to that, I believe. Her puppies were not untypical in size though. They do seem to vary more than one might think they would.

Judging by Emmie's weight, Mayzie probably will be larger than average, but probably not huge.


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## tarheelbaby1 (Aug 5, 2016)

Just for point of reference, Charlie is 14w and 6.5 lbs, so the weight you describe is possible. He was the biggest of his litter (born May 23rd) and will likely be on the large side for a Hav. I am sorry you're dealing with these concerns. Sounds like your pup is a sweetie.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Chasing Mayzie said:


> I hadn't thought about her being a broker, but that would make sense...she is a groomer, and she brought a person with her who she said owned the mother (and she showed me a picture), and I Know she didn't own the father, so broker would make sense.
> 
> Meanwhile, Mayzie is doing great on her housebreaking, sit, off, and (lay)down, and bring. I will spay her when she loses her baby teeth, then her side teeth, and around the time her canines come out (the vet said)...before her first heat. I've never bred a dog, and though it used to be on my bucket list to breed just one litter, I took it off after I learned a bit.
> 
> ...


There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with her having her dew claws... Personally, I would not buy a dog whose dew claws had been removed. It has been proven that dew claws are important for a dog when moving at speed. Dogs who do sports and whose dew claws have been removed are much more likely to develop stress fracture 
S in their carpus (wrist) than dogs who still have them.


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## Chasing Mayzie (Aug 16, 2016)

krandall said:


> There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with her having her dew claws... Personally, I would not buy a dog whose dew claws had been removed. It has been proven that dew claws are important for a dog when moving at speed. Dogs who do sports and whose dew claws have been removed are much more likely to develop stress fracture
> S in their carpus (wrist) than dogs who still have them.


Learning so much already!


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Mayzie is just precious! Such a pretty color and beautiful eyes! 😊


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## tarheelbaby1 (Aug 5, 2016)

I would trust your vet's recommendations on vaccines and redo a round if he thinks it's best. From what I've heard, younger pups get frequent vaccinations because their immune systems are not yet mature enough to take full advantage of the vaccines. The hope is that they will create some temporary antibodies and/or the vet will intercept that first point at which the vaccines can be fully effective. Your vet will have a protocol for vaccination of a 14-16w pup, regardless of whether it's had previous shots. I have heard that many vets don't trust what they see on papers from a breeder and before the pup was under their care.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

tarheelbaby1 said:


> I would trust your vet's recommendations on vaccines and redo a round if he thinks it's best. From what I've heard, younger pups get frequent vaccinations because their immune systems are not yet mature enough to take full advantage of the vaccines. The hope is that they will create some temporary antibodies and/or the vet will intercept that first point at which the vaccines can be fully effective. Your vet will have a protocol for vaccination of a 14-16w pup, regardless of whether it's had previous shots. I have heard that many vets don't trust what they see on papers from a breeder and before the pup was under their care.


... And under NORMAL circumstances, if I ran into a vet that vaccinated that way, I'd RUN the other way. This is a vaccine sensitive breed, and dogs, in general, are WAY over vaccinated. Many (if not most of us) here use Jean Dodd's vaccine protocol: Dr. Jean Dodds' Pet Health Resource Blog | 2016 Dodds Vaccination Protocol for Dogs

However, this is a little different situation. We are now thinking that this puppy DIDN'T come from a good breeder, there is no way of knowing what vaccines she has received since the seller lied about other things, and the puppy was obviously exposed to other pathogens. In this case, I think you'd need to find a vet you trusted, who UNDERSTOOD minimal vaccine protocols, and the importance of using them in vaccine sensitive breeds, and have them help you make the call.


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## Chasing Mayzie (Aug 16, 2016)

I felt good when he said he wanted to vaccine against bordetella only, and then see me back in a week while he saw how she did and he thought on it. Better than if he just gave her a bunch of shots and said to come back again for more.


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## boomana (Jul 9, 2015)

Just to add to the vaccine info, Lola went in for her annual appointment since her puppy shots, and other than rabies, the vet did titers rather than just give her vaccines. Got the blood work back on Thursday, and she doesn't need a booster.


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

I am actually surprised that the vet chose to give a Bordetella vaccine to your puppy. I consider it an optional vaccine that is given when required by a grooming or boarding facility.


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