# GRRR! Stubborn dog and uncooperative husband!!!



## Ari214 (Oct 9, 2014)

I don't know where to go from here. Kipper refuses to use the backyard to pee or poop!!!

Last week I tried to get him to do his business there. He did a few times but then he had a few accidents in the house so after 3 days of this my husband got impatient and just went back to taking him on walks when we figured it was time for him to go. 

No problems peeing or pooping during walks. But after having Kipper wanting to poop in someone's pristine St. Augustine grass a few times, I decided we needed to go back to the yard thing. So I started yesterday. Nothing. He will not go. Today it was my husband's turn to go home during lunch and he caved in and took him walking because Kipper had pooped in the house.

So.. what do I do? Allow my husband to give in to Kipper so there will be no accidents? OR just stick to my guns and force Kipper to use the yard? 

This is sooo weird!!! Why won't he use the yard??? Also, Kipper seems to like to eat the grass in our yard. Could this have something to do with it??? :frusty: :frusty:


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## NickieTwo (Jun 17, 2013)

Do you go into the backyard with Kipper? If not, that could be the difference. Your husband is right with Kipper, who is on a leash, on walks. Am I right that you didn't acquire Kipper as a young puppy? He could have some negative association to backyards. Think of differences between his backyard experiences and walk experiences. Think also of how you and your husband act (patience, tone of voice, etc.) in both settings.

Kipper is adorable and will catch on to expectations; it will take time and patience.


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## Ari214 (Oct 9, 2014)

NickieTwo said:


> Do you go into the backyard with Kipper? If not, that could be the difference. Your husband is right with Kipper, who is on a leash, on walks. Am I right that you didn't acquire Kipper as a young puppy? He could have some negative association to backyards. Think of differences between his backyard experiences and walk experiences. Think also of how you and your husband act (patience, tone of voice, etc.) in both settings.
> 
> Kipper is adorable and will catch on to expectations; it will take time and patience.


Yes, we go in the backyard with him! We don't just dump him out there. We walk around with him, try to play, etc. I'm willing to put in the time, but my husband seems to feel bad for him and just wants to give in and take him walking so he can go in other people's yards. To me, that is not okay! I just don't know if I'm being the irrational one here. I'm beginning to feel like the ogre


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

Do you take him out in the backyard with his leash on and to the area of the yard that you want him to pee/poop? I recommend putting some of his pee/poop in that area and walking him over there while on leash, and then when he does his business give him a special treat and lots of praise. Good luck!


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## Ari214 (Oct 9, 2014)

MarinaGirl said:


> Do you take him out in the backyard with his leash on and to the area of the yard that you want him to pee/poop? I recommend putting some of his pee/poop in that area and walking him over there while on leash, and then when he does his business give him a special treat and lots of praise. Good luck!


I have tried the leash on and off. Last week it was on, and he went about 25% of the time. The past two days it's been off and nothing. So maybe I'll go back to the leash

There is already pee and poop in our backyard from our friend's dog that came over last Saturday!!! I just don't get it.

I'm going to section off the portion of the yard where there's poop, get him back on the leash and see what happens.

TGIF!


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## BettyJ (Feb 13, 2014)

Neighbors usually don't mind if you pick up the poop. Plastic shopping bags work well as long as there is no hole in the bottom. There are biodegradable poop bags too. Do you know any of his background? Maybe he was always walked on the leash to go potty. My daughter has a Yorkie that wasn't allowed outside in the yard to poop before she got him. He thinks you aren't suppose to go in the yard. He is now two and will rarely go in the yard.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

you've got it backwards . The walk should follow the pooping in the back yard. The reward always follows the act. Dogs are not stubborn . 
Websters dictionary ; Stubborn ... unreasonably or perversely unyielding .

My preferred term to describe this sort of behavior is ...
OPPORTUNISTIC ... by definition is ... "Exploiting chances offered by immediate circumstances without reference to moral principle."

It has been said by many people that dogs can be "stubborn." Many ethologists believe that this is an inaccurate description. When people are experiencing problem behaviors with their dogs , they quite often are not communicating with their dog in a way they clearly understand. Consequently, people think they just have a stupid, "stubborn", or reactive dog. "Stubborn " is one of those red flag words that come up in the "terms to avoid" for finding a reputable dog trainer. 
When a dog does not come when called , they are not being "stubborn", they simply are being opportunistic ,ie finding something more appealing than what we're asking of them. It's a case of what is more reinforcing for them. Dogs are not capable of being stubborn as that would mean they are capable of developing a reasoned argument not to do something. I like this analysis from L.C. Kelley from Psychology Today ..."That's one example of the wrong kind of anthropomorphism. Another is that far too many people abandon their dogs because they're perceived as "stubborn," "willful," or "disobedient," all anthropomorphisms. The truth is, dogs can't be obedient or disobedient because even though it's something they're exceptionally good at, dogs themselves don't know what the concept of obedience means. They only know that when their emotions are aligned with their owners' desires they "feel" like doing what their owners want them to. That's all".

Here is a great article on "stubborn dogs" http://smartdog.typepad.com/smart_dog/2010/06/how-to-deal-with-a-stubborn-dog-full-article.html


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

You need to be much more consistent with your expectations for him. Talk it over with your husband, and decide on a plan you both can live with, and then expect him to STICK TO IT. It will take a lot more than a few days, especially with a dog of his age, who has clearly not already developed good, strong potty habits. 

Many dogs would prefer not to soil their own yard... It is home territory. But that doesn't mean they can't learn to relieve themselves there. It also doesn't mean that you will NEVER be able to let him potty on walks. But until he learns ONE set of potty rules, he can't be expected to learn others. 

I find it useful for my dog to go potty on command, and in our yard, so that i can make sure he is "empty" before getting in the car for a trip. I simply say, "Go pee!" And he does. I can also tell him to "Go poop!" But, of course, it depends whether he needs to go whether he can "perform" on that one. On my "pee" command, he will stop and force out a few drops, even if that's all he has! :laugh:

When you are working to get him to eliminate in the yard,he should be on leash. This is one place that a flexi can be useful, just to give the dog a bit more space, although I wouldn't recommend a flexi for much else. Stand in one place, do NOT play, and quietly tell him "Go pee, go poop!" (Or whatever words youve decided on... That part doesn't matter, as long as it is consistent). Stand there for no longer then 5 minutes. If it doesn't work, don't say anything, positive or negative, just bring him in and put him back in his crate or ex-pen. Try again in 1/2 to 1 hour at your dog's age. When he goes, give him TONS of praise, and a yummy treat. Then you can allow him in a safe (from accidents) place off leash in the house for a while, or take him on his walk.

What is MOST important is that you are very, very consistent in your approach, whatever you and your husband decide on. This is really the only way dog can learn. There is no mystery about why he hasn't been too successful so far. You aren't experienced, he is an older puppy, who has already had months of inconsistent potty expectations, and since he has come to you, although you've been trying your best, you and your husband haven't set consistent expectations. That's the first part of settting any training goal for an animal. You'll get there with your cutie... It's clear you are committed!

Also, as someone else posted, as long as you clean up after him, there is really no problem with him pottying on someone else's grass. Yes, you can use plastic shopping bags, but they are awfully big for tiny, Havanese "Tootsie Rolls".second, I find that a lot of shopping bags have small holes, especially along the bottom seam. I don't want my hand in contact with the poop! So I really prefer doogy poop bags, which come on rolls and are available at all pet stores and many grocery stores. They are a better size, and are available in a biodegradeable version.

Finally, i would NOT leave much poop in your yard. My preference is for none. Poop is a great way to pass parasites around. You can even re-infect your own dog by leaveing poop to contaminate the ground if they have a parsite infection. Dogs can easily be taught to eliminate in the proper place without leaving refuse around. Dogs are inherently clean animals, and many will not eliminate in places that have been previously soiled if they have any choice at all. Kodi uses a litter box in the house in bad weather, and I have to clean in immediately (even if he only pees) or he won't use it aagain later in the day. He is fully house trained, so that just means that he holds it, bu I don't want the poor guy holding it and uncomfortable all day!


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## Ari214 (Oct 9, 2014)

krandall said:


> You need to be much more consistent with your expectations for him. Talk it over with your husband, and decide on a plan you both can live with, and then expect him to STICK TO IT. It will take a lot more than a few days, especially with a dog of his age, who has clearly not already developed good, strong potty habits.
> 
> Many dogs would prefer not to soil their own yard... It is home territory. But that doesn't mean they can't learn to relieve themselves there. It also doesn't mean that you will NEVER be able to let him potty on walks. But until he learns ONE set of potty rules, he can't be expected to learn others.
> 
> ...


THANK YOU very much for your thorough response. I've been feeling all kinds of frazzled because I can't seem to communicate with my poor dog. But I did have a talk with my husband and I think he's now fully committed to the yard plan!! Yaay!

I'm happy to report that we have made some progress since I first posted this. Hopefully, we're on our way to getting better! *knock on wood*

Kipper has used the yard the past 4 days. We still had some accidents in the house but that was our fault; we did not anticipate him outsmarting us and getting through to the upstairs. He's a clever little dog.

We have an appointment on Thursday with a behavior consultant about his leash reactivity and hopefully she can also give me some pointers about the potty situation.

Again, I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Have a great day!!!


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Good news on the progress!! Why is he having accidents in the house? Are you keeping a close eye on him? If you can't watch him, he should not have free run of the house. It will be harder to housebreak him if you allow him to go unwatched. My sister in law literally liter box trained her dog in one weekend. She sat with him for an entire weekend and watched his every move

The more time you put into it, the faster it pays off. Good luck!! Glad he is doing better.


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## Ari214 (Oct 9, 2014)

lfung5 said:


> Good news on the progress!! Why is he having accidents in the house? Are you keeping a close eye on him? If you can't watch him, he should not have free run of the house. It will be harder to housebreak him if you allow him to go unwatched. My sister in law literally liter box trained her dog in one weekend. She sat with him for an entire weekend and watched his every move
> 
> The more time you put into it, the faster it pays off. Good luck!! Glad he is doing better.


My husband and I both work so he's home alone when we're working. We let him be loose downstairs when we leave. He doesn't cry as much this way. I know that's not the best way to go about it; but I just didn't know what else to do b/c he was getting really upset and scratching the door and door frame when we were leaving him in just one room. Then we tried the kitchen with a gate and he learned to jump that. So.. this is where we are now. He's free to roam downstairs and he doesn't have accidents there, but he figured out a way to get past the gate at the top of the stairs and that's where the accidents have happened. Now we figured out what he was doing and we think we have corrected it, so we'll see..

I didn't want to leave him in his crate while we go to work because even though we go check on him during lunch, that would still be about 4 hours he'd have to be in it and I think that's too long. I'd feel bad doing that to him during the day.


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## azcolaw (Jul 19, 2013)

Glad things are going better. I don't really have any advice, just can totally sympathize with the frustration. 
It took me about a year and a half with Ginny (she's 2 1/2 now) and maybe 8-9 months for Griffin (age 1 1/2). 
I know you got Kipper when he was older and that presents different issues. 
Mine were both puppies. Ginny just could not "get it" for the longest time and I felt so helpless. They are both doing great now, with no accidents in about 6 months, but it was long road.


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## Cindy Lee (Aug 12, 2014)

You are not alone! 
We are having the same problem with our Havanese "Fred". If he continues to poop in the house for much longer He's gone! I love the dog, he is smart in most respects except he can not grasp the concept of poop & pee OUT SIDE.
We have tried everything. We have kept him in his create after he has eaten for up to hours (1 to 4), take him out and he'll pee then just play, play, play or he'll simply just sit and refuse to move! Take him in- turn your head and boom,,,, poop on the floor!!
He is almost 6 months old, and I don't know how much more of this we can take!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Cindy Lee said:


> You are not alone!
> We are having the same problem with our Havanese "Fred". If he continues to poop in the house for much longer He's gone! I love the dog, he is smart in most respects except he can not grasp the concept of poop & pee OUT SIDE.
> We have tried everything. We have kept him in his create after he has eaten for up to hours (1 to 4), take him out and he'll pee then just play, play, play or he'll simply just sit and refuse to move! Take him in- turn your head and boom,,,, poop on the floor!!
> He is almost 6 months old, and I don't know how much more of this we can take!


Why do you let him loose in the house if he hasn't eliminated outdoors? If he hasn't eliminated outdoors, he needs to be in his crate or ex-pen, or supervised, EYES ON. You CAN'T turn your head with an un-trained puppy. And every mistake he is allowed to make in the house means that he has to have DOZENS of successes to make up for them.

When he goes out to potty, it should NOT be play-time. Keep him on leash, and he only gets to play AFTER he has eliminated.

Potty training takes consistency. It's hard work, especially if the dog has been allowed to get to 6 months and is still having frequent mistakes. You will really need to go back and start as if he were a 5-8 week old puppy. It will probably take longer than it would with a 5-8 week old puppy because of his poor track record in the past. He CAN be potty trained, but you need to be really committed to NEVER letting a mistake happen.


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## BearsMom (Jul 16, 2012)

My thoughts...for what they're worth. You can't expect perfection. Progress, yes, but not perfection from pups. Bear is my 1st dog and the whole house breaking experience really wore at my patience but I knew that as "the human," I had to keep my cool, correct him, reward him, and take it day by day, hour by hour. 
He was a pup that had too much freedom, too early on (due to my ignorance). I did pull back drastically with where he was allowed to be in the house and he showed a lot of progress. Also, I made a HUGE deal out of it when he "pee peed outside." As long as he made it outside of our house, I considered him to be successful. This could be on the deck, in the garage, on the driveway, etc. (It can all be washed away). My neighbors probably thought I was totally nuts with all of the praise I gave him. And a treat, right away was ready in my hand. Instant praise, instant reward. 

I cringe when I read "if he continues much longer, he's gone" .....please keep trying. You're his human. He looks to you to meet his needs . You're his world. It breaks my heart when I hear or read of dogs who lose their home due to these circumstances.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

EVERY dog can be housebroken. If they aren't getting it, it's your fault not the dogs. I've trained puppymill dogs not to go in the house. You are giving way to much freedom. You can't get mad at the dog if you're giving too much freedom and not watching him and he goes in the house. You should be upset with yourself. A dog is a huge commitment. If you are ready to throw in the towel this early, I am afraid for the dog. I am sorry if my reply is harsh, but I edited my response from what i really wanted to say.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Ari214 said:


> My husband and I both work so he's home alone when we're working. We let him be loose downstairs when we leave. He doesn't cry as much this way. I know that's not the best way to go about it; but I just didn't know what else to do b/c he was getting really upset and scratching the door and door frame when we were leaving him in just one room. Then we tried the kitchen with a gate and he learned to jump that. So.. this is where we are now. He's free to roam downstairs and he doesn't have accidents there, but he figured out a way to get past the gate at the top of the stairs and that's where the accidents have happened. Now we figured out what he was doing and we think we have corrected it, so we'll see..
> 
> I didn't want to leave him in his crate while we go to work because even though we go check on him during lunch, that would still be about 4 hours he'd have to be in it and I think that's too long. I'd feel bad doing that to him during the day.


Can you work with him at being secure when you are gone? You can work with these guys to stop the barking and anxiety.

There are pens you can get with tops on them. Maybe you could try that. They are big enough for a potty station, bed, food, toys water etc. If he's not 100% housebroken, he should not have all that space to run. He will never learn.


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## Ari214 (Oct 9, 2014)

lfung5 said:


> Can you work with him at being secure when you are gone? You can work with these guys to stop the barking and anxiety.
> 
> There are pens you can get with tops on them. Maybe you could try that. They are big enough for a potty station, bed, food, toys water etc. If he's not 100% housebroken, he should not have all that space to run. He will never learn.


I left him in the kitchen today with a gate. I had tried that once before but he got all worked up and knocked it down. Since he's now dealing with us leaving a little better, I decided to give it another try. Seems like after his 5 minutes of howling, he's calmed down and is now sleeping on his bed.

This is SO difficult. And I know it's our fault  This week has started off on the wrong foot. He peed and pooped inside this morning. 
What's really puzzling is that he peed on the rug that he loves to play on. So much for keeping his space clean!


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## Ari214 (Oct 9, 2014)

Cindy Lee said:


> You are not alone!
> We are having the same problem with our Havanese "Fred". If he continues to poop in the house for much longer He's gone! I love the dog, he is smart in most respects except he can not grasp the concept of poop & pee OUT SIDE.
> We have tried everything. We have kept him in his create after he has eaten for up to hours (1 to 4), take him out and he'll pee then just play, play, play or he'll simply just sit and refuse to move! Take him in- turn your head and boom,,,, poop on the floor!!
> He is almost 6 months old, and I don't know how much more of this we can take!


I'm sorry to hear you're struggling this bad as well. We've had Kipper only for a month but it seems like forever because we take one step forward and then three steps back. But like other members have said, we have nobody to blame but ourselves for the most part. I realize I gave Kipper too much freedom and trust when we got him. He is so cute it's hard not to! But I am learning the hard way that he needs more discipline and he's a dog. He's not going to discipline himself. It needs to come from us.

I don't know your situation so I can't advise you as to whether you should keep him or not. But I think cutting back on his freedom would probably help out. I know that's what our problem is :/


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ari214 said:


> I left him in the kitchen today with a gate. I had tried that once before but he got all worked up and knocked it down. Since he's now dealing with us leaving a little better, I decided to give it another try. Seems like after his 5 minutes of howling, he's calmed down and is now sleeping on his bed.
> 
> This is SO difficult. And I know it's our fault  This week has started off on the wrong foot. He peed and pooped inside this morning.
> What's really puzzling is that he peed on the rug that he loves to play on. So much for keeping his space clean!


While you want to TRY for errorless potty training, accidents WILL happen, even for the best of us. YOu started with an older puppy, and had some false starts to begin with. It's very likely to take a bit longer with him, as he hasn't had a great start in life. But with your patience and consistency, he WILL get there!


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## Ari214 (Oct 9, 2014)

krandall said:


> While you want to TRY for errorless potty training, accidents WILL happen, even for the best of us. YOu started with an older puppy, and had some false starts to begin with. It's very likely to take a bit longer with him, as he hasn't had a great start in life. But with your patience and consistency, he WILL get there!


Patience. Yes! If only I could train myself to be more patient. Ha. But I guess this dog is doing it for me.

I am holding on to the belief that Kipper is all in all a good dog. The behavior consultant/trainer came last Thursday and she said he's a really good dog as far as rescues go. She did say he has a bit of a bossy streak, which sounds about right.

We're about to schedule session #2. If only I could make her move in with us for a month!!!

Thanks again, Karen!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ari214 said:


> Patience. Yes! If only I could train myself to be more patient. Ha. But I guess this dog is doing it for me.
> 
> I am holding on to the belief that Kipper is all in all a good dog. The behavior consultant/trainer came last Thursday and she said he's a really good dog as far as rescues go. She did say he has a bit of a bossy streak, which sounds about right.
> 
> ...


Rescues can definitely be more of a challenge. But you are doing a very good thing for him, and in the end, I'm sure you will have a WONDERFUL companion!!!


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