# Gender combinations for 2 puppies: female/female, female/male; male/male?



## smemft

Hello All,

I will eventually be seeking to add two Havs to our family and I have learned from the forum that it is not a wise idea to have two puppies (same age) from the same litter. Most of the the research that I have done seems to support that position. And a year apart seems to be the minimum advised?

Does anyone have any perspectives he or she would kindly be willing to share regarding gender combinations for a two, Hav household? *Female/female; female/male; or male/male?* I was reading on a humane society website that two females can have a tendency to "fight" as adolescents and/or adults. This was not Hav specific information, but I would be most grateful for some input if anyone would be willing to share. :decision:


----------



## krandall

In general, Havanese are pretty mild mannered, and it really has more to do with individual dispositions than anything else. That said, The surest bets are either two neutered males or a neutered male followed by a female. MOST two girl households are fine, but I do know a couple of Havanese households where, as the dogs got older, they have needed to be kept apart, or they fight fiercely. In those cases, however, at least one of the pair was an intact female, so hormones probably play a part in the dynamics.

I have an older boy and two youngish girls. The middle girl gets a bit snarky with the other two upon occasion, and it is almost always resource guarding. But even at its worst, it's just a bit of snarling... no actual fighting, and within minutes they are playing again. (And again, one of my girls is intact, and feelings run highest when she is in heat (though she is rarely the instigator).

The MOST important thing is to have your breeder help you choose a laid-back second puppy who is likely to let the older one take the lead. If your first is a boy (which I would advise if you plan to add a second) the girl will USUALLY end up, eventually, being the "boss of him".  But in most cases, he'll be fine with that. Havanese boys, in general, are lovers, not fighters. . Kodi backs down whenever either of the girls challenges him for a toy or a particular bed. He WON'T back down over food, but even then, he won't fight about it... he is just very, VERY persistent. :laugh:

No matter what you choose, the VAST majority of Havanese get along very well, especially in households where they are all either neutered or spayed.


----------



## boomana

I have a Coton-cavalier mix male, who had just turned two when I got Lola. My dogs get along great, with the only issue being Watson is super protective of Lola to the point of being a jerk in public. When i first got her, he would stand on top of her and growl at other dogs and sometimes people. Though not Havanese, I know a few folks from the dog park with dogs from the same litter. It's mixed as to how they get along.

I personally have found it difficult to train two dogs at one time, but am glad Watson had the basics down before I got Lola. I'm guessing if there is more than one person in your home, it will be easier.

I saw in another thread that you were looking to get chocolates. I know two people who have chocolates that held their color, but most, like mine, lighten significantly. Just wanted to give you the heads up.


----------



## Pucks104

I think a 2-2.5 year span is better than a 1 year span between puppies. Honestly, at 1 year you still have to be very vigilant to reinforce housetraining and other behaviors. You really want the first one to be solid in all house and social manners as young dogs learn very quickly from each other - both good and bad behaviors. I have 4 dogs - 2 non-Havs and 2 Havs; 3 males and 1 female. The female is basically the boss of all. Leo and Rex - the Havs - are separated in age by 2.75 years. They play like young boys - wrestling, chasing, stealing toys from each other, tugging on toys full out and then they sleep. Leo is now 4 yrs old and has always been cuddly. Rexy is a little whirlwind. They get along splendidly. Leo is noisier in play in that he will make play growly sounds and sometimes bark. Rexy never does that when playing. Rexy only really makes noise when his food is being prepared and he is in his expen and I and the other dogs are in the kitchen then he makes a shrill bark/whine. I am beginning to allow him in the kitchen some of the time when i prepare food but he had to get to a place of respecting the other dogs food so they didn't take it on themselves to teach him a lesson. He is much smaller than the older two and 2 lbs smaller than Leo. Better safe than sorry so mostly I still confine him to his expen when its mealtime. 
Anyway, my girl, Becca, will resource guard a bit with a chew bone. Just a soft growl and the boys all move away and let her chew in peace. If my oldest and largest dog, Porter, plays too hard (not so much any more as he is 8 yrs now) Becca would turn on him with vicious sounding growls (never bites or any injuries but very noisy) and Porter would back off. Then Becca would sulk and not play with him sometimes for a couple of days. 
The boys never do that. They play hard but there is never any sulking. Just shake it off and go back for more. 
Matching temperaments is important. You wouldn't want an ever ready bunny like our Rex with a wallflower.


----------



## smemft

Pucks104 said:


> I think a 2-2.5 year span is better than a 1 year span between puppies. Honestly, at 1 year you still have to be very vigilant to reinforce housetraining and other behaviors. You really want the first one to be solid in all house and social manners as young dogs learn very quickly from each other - both good and bad behaviors. I have 4 dogs - 2 non-Havs and 2 Havs; 3 males and 1 female. The female is basically the boss of all. Leo and Rex - the Havs - are separated in age by 2.75 years. They play like young boys - wrestling, chasing, stealing toys from each other, tugging on toys full out and then they sleep. Leo is now 4 yrs old and has always been cuddly. Rexy is a little whirlwind. They get along splendidly. Leo is noisier in play in that he will make play growly sounds and sometimes bark. Rexy never does that when playing. Rexy only really makes noise when his food is being prepared and he is in his expen and I and the other dogs are in the kitchen then he makes a shrill bark/whine. I am beginning to allow him in the kitchen some of the time when i prepare food but he had to get to a place of respecting the other dogs food so they didn't take it on themselves to teach him a lesson. He is much smaller than the older two and 2 lbs smaller than Leo. Better safe than sorry so mostly I still confine him to his expen when its mealtime.
> Anyway, my girl, Becca, will resource guard a bit with a chew bone. Just a soft growl and the boys all move away and let her chew in peace. If my oldest and largest dog, Porter, plays too hard (not so much any more as he is 8 yrs now) Becca would turn on him with vicious sounding growls (never bites or any injuries but very noisy) and Porter would back off. Then Becca would sulk and not play with him sometimes for a couple of days.
> The boys never do that. They play hard but there is never any sulking. Just shake it off and go back for more.
> Matching temperaments is important. You wouldn't want an ever ready bunny like our Rex with a wallflower.


Thank you! Really helpful information to know! I am curious about any marking issues with your boys?


----------



## Pucks104

I have always treated marking as a housetraining issue so I haven't really had a problem. Typically as the boys get into adolescence and start to mark outside they will give it a try indoors. If you interrupt/distract when they show ANY interest in vertical surfaces, run them out and praise appropriate marking and/or urination they will quickly catch on to where they can mark and where it isn't permitted. When we go to another house or building, I supervise really closely for a time and "anh, anh" if they show any interest in vertical surfaces. Over time my boys have come to understand that marking indoors anywhere is unacceptable but that trees and other outdoor things are usually ok. If we are outdoors and there are things I don't want them to bother I just "anh, anh" and they leave it alone.


----------



## krandall

smemft said:


> 0 Wow! You are such a wealth of information! Have you written a Hav book? Are you plannng to? If so, please let me know. Thank you SO much! I was looking through old forum posts last night but none put it as you just did so I really appreciate it.
> 
> I had it all backwards, again. I am seeking pets so both will be spayed/neutered. I was originally thinking that I wanted two females due to believing that males would likely mark their territory if around a female or another male. I had read on a few breedrs websites that many people prefer females when males are actually more likely to affectionate, owner-centered, and laid back. This information was on some backyard breederish looking websites so I did not give it much credence at the time but mmmmmm.
> 
> Based on the wonderful feedback from the forum, I have pretty much now decided to wait at least a year on the second puppy, until the first is reliable, which from the sounds of the forum, might even be longer than a year. That is fine with me as finding the best fit between the breeder, the puppies, and my family is the priority and I am in no rush.


ound: ound: ound: I actually just finished writing (as in it just came out in print) a book on a completely non-dog subject. it was a HUGE labor of love, and I'm not in the mood to start again any time soon! 

Many people don't realize that:

1. Females can mark too
2. Marking (or NOT marking!) is something that can be trained, just like potty training.

It IS very hard to train un-neutered boys to consistently refrain from marking if that are intact females in the house. But I even know a NUMBER of male ex-stud dogs, who once they were neutered and moved into a pet home, without intact "girl cooties" around, easily learned that indoor marking was NOT going to be tolerated.

It's REALLY not a problem with pet puppies in pet homes. Kodi NEVER marked... indoors or out... Until he was close to 2 years old. Even then, he ONLY marks outdoors, and only where a lot of other dogs have marked, like outdoors at a show or training center.


----------



## krandall

To add to what Pucks said, my middle girl is my big marker. She (fortunately) knows better than to mark in the house (she was my easiest to potty train; basically doing it herself) but she's a HUGE outdoor marker. She follows the others around and has to overwork EVERYWHERE one of the other pees... Even if she can only force a drop or two out! :laugh:


----------



## Askavi

krandall said:


> The MOST important thing is to have your breeder help you choose a laid-back second puppy who is likely to let the older one take the lead. If your first is a boy (which I would advise if you plan to add a second) the girl will USUALLY end up, eventually, being the "boss of him".


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

My first is a boy, and second a girl. Sassy became the boss of him from nearly the day we brought her home.


----------



## Heather's

Our first Havanese Sparky was 14 years old when we got Scout. Scout was only 1.5 years old when Sparky went to doggie heaven, but they did get along well. Scout would always jump and terrorize Sparky, but he would only growl occasionally. When Scout was 1.5 years old Truffles arrived at eight weeks old. Scout is neutered and very sweet. Truffles was spayed at one year. Truffles has been a bossy little girl from the day she arrived. She has always loved to growl and attack Scout. They are best buddies and play endlessly. Their temperaments are completely different. Scout always quiet and peaceful. Truffles high energy!
Truffles was a very dark chocolate puppy. She is still definitely brown, but much lighter. I still don't understand the silvering, but I guess that is what has happened.


----------



## smemft

*Marking/potty training issues?*



Askavi said:


> :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
> 
> My first is a boy, and second a girl. Sassy became the boss of him from nearly the day we brought her home.


Hi Askavi,

Thank you for taking the time to provide input. Have you had any marking issues with any of your Havs? How was potty training?


----------



## Heather's

smemft said:


> Hi Askavi,
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to provide input. Have you had any marking issues with any of your Havs? How was potty training?


No marking ever....Scout was potty trained pretty much immediately. Truffles took about one year to potty train. It was our fault because we were not consistent with going outside every two hours in the beginning. Plus we had wee pads for her in the house. I think she got confused. Scout always whimpers or taps on the glass to be let out. Truffles will just sit next to the sliding door so I keep my eye on her. &#128522; I always keep a wee pad out because she will use it if she is unable to go outside.


----------



## davetgabby

There are as many opinions as households. Some research suggests there is less aggression occurs between opposite sexes ,followed by male/male and then female/female. Female/female aggression tended to be longer and more intense. But this is not by any means definitive. Pick a mate that is best of the litter if possible. If possible have them meet.


----------



## krandall

davetgabby said:


> There are as many opinions as households. Some research suggests there is less aggression occurs between opposite sexes ,followed by male/male and then female/female. Female/female aggression tended to be longer and more intense. But this is not by any means definitive. Pick a mate that is best of the litter if possible. If possible have them meet.


I don't know any breeders who are going to allow a strange dog into their home, and the older dog is unlikely to act normally in that environment anyway.


----------



## Ollie"s Mom

I have a chocolate that just turned one. He was a very dark chocolate as a newborn and the breeder expected him to hold colour as his lines going back had done that. She also had kept in touch with buyers of previous litters from the same pairing and had found those pups to have held their colour. If you can find a breeder who has kept good info on your pups parents, grandparents etc. and the pups parents have had previous litters together that have held colour you up your odds of the colour holding. I am in western Canada and my breeder is no longer breeding that pairing so I cannot help you there. I have put up pictures of Hershey to let you see his colour development so far. He has lightened, but has stayed quite dark.





















[/ATTACH]


----------



## davetgabby

some of our breeder trainers encourage it , outside the presence of the mother ,one at a time. This will familiarize the pup to the dog and will make it easier when you bring one of them home because they have already met . In most cases where problems arise ,it's the younger pup that initiate it.


----------



## krandall

davetgabby said:


> some of our breeder trainers encourage it , outside the presence of the mother ,one at a time. This will familiarize the pup to the dog and will make it easier when you bring one of them home because they have already met . In most cases where problems arise ,it's the younger pup that initiate it.


The big problem (besides how the mother and the adult dog feel about the whole thing) is that it is right at the pup's most vulnerable time for infection. Few breeders want to risk their entire litter allowing a strange dog into the house.

Fortunately, we have a breed that, in general, is pretty social. I really haven't heard of a well bred Havanese puppy, introduced into a household with other Havanese where there was a problem at the puppy stage. I haven't heard of anyone having a problem in a pet only home at all with dogs that come from good breeders and have been properly socialized. I've only heard of a serious problem with adult Havanese in the same household three times. Two of those times have been with intact dogs.

In one case an adult father and son, in the other case, two bitches. The father and sone were intermittent, and mostly a lot of yelling and carrying on. The bitches are totally serious. They have to be kept in opposite ends of the house. They try to kill each other. I've suggested that they re-home one of them. Unfortunately, one is the wife's favorite, the other is the husband's favorite. Makes for an interesting family dynamic. 

The third case was one we know about on the forum, where one of the dogs was a rescue, (maybe both... I don't remember about the older one) and had shown herself to be pretty unbalanced from the very beginning. Problems just got worse as she got older.


----------



## Askavi

smemft said:


> Hi Askavi,
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to provide input. Have you had any marking issues with any of your Havs? How was potty training?


Well, my two are still pretty young and I had Raffy neutered around 10 months old (I do worry this was too early). He doesn't seem to be interested in marking inside or out. As far as potty training, I used an ex-pen with pad system for Raffy, as well as keeping him gated in the "not carpet" area of my house where I spend most of my time. I felt that he was reliable enough to be allowed in the carpeted areas when he was about 5 months old. I added additional potty pads in other areas that we spent time. He wasn't a pad shredder, so this worked for us. At 1 1/2, he very rarely uses the indoor options available to him because he prefers to do his business outdoors. We had a little bit of a blip in reliability when the weather got bad this fall/winter, but after a couple of days of reinforcement of proper potty places, he was right back on track. With Sassy, I have done essentially the same thing, but use a potty tray because she's a pad shredder. She became reliable much faster than Raffy and was allowed past "the gate" by 14 weeks. She also prefers to go outside (the older dogs are doing it!) and has been using her potty tray less and less each day. I still keep a pretty close eye on her because she is so young.

I do have an older, spayed female cockapoo as well. She is the one really in charge, and Sassy doesn't seem to be inclined to challenge it too much so far. Funny enough, my cockapoo is FAR more tolerant of Sassy's puppy antics than she was of Raffy's.


----------



## smemft

Ollie"s Mom said:


> I have a chocolate that just turned one. He was a very dark chocolate as a newborn and the breeder expected him to hold colour as his lines going back had done that. She also had kept in touch with buyers of previous litters from the same pairing and had found those pups to have held their colour. If you can find a breeder who has kept good info on your pups parents, grandparents etc. and the pups parents have had previous litters together that have held colour you up your odds of the colour holding. I am in western Canada and my breeder is no longer breeding that pairing so I cannot help you there. I have put up pictures of Hershey to let you see his colour development so far. He has lightened, but has stayed quite dark.
> View attachment 133978
> 
> View attachment 133986
> 
> 
> View attachment 133994
> [/ATTACH]


Awwwwwe!!!!!! Did I saw awwwwwwwe?!?! What a GORGEOUS Hav! Thank you for taking the time to post those...absolutely beautiful!!!
:bounce:


----------



## Ollie"s Mom

You are welcome. Hershey thanks you for your kind words. I hope you have a great time finding your first baby. Hershey is our second, we have an almost three year old Ollie. There is almost 2 years between them. It was a good choice to wait for our second, a puppy is a lot of work and it takes time to develop them into good dogs. Do that with the first before bringing crazy back into the house. We didn't want to wait much longer, because we wanted the older one to still be young enough to develop a fun relationship with the puppy. That has worked out really well, they have a lot of fun together. Initially the older one went through some adjustment and I think he would have been really happy to see Hershey go back from whence he came. We gave Ollie lots of attention so he didn't resent the little one, but there is definitely an adjustment period. Now they are just good buddies. I am glad I waited as long as I did.


----------



## Tux's Mom

krandall said:


> To add to what Pucks said, my middle girl is my big marker. She (fortunately) knows better than to mark in the house (she was my easiest to potty train; basically doing it herself) but she's a HUGE outdoor marker. She follows the others around and has to overwork EVERYWHERE one of the other pees... Even if she can only force a drop or two out! :laugh:


My first Hav was a female, spayed, and pretty much housebroken within a week at 11 weeks of age. BUT, she could mark 20 times per trip outdoors. I've never seen anything like it. Her nose was always to the ground, stop, sniff, pee.......move a few feet or two, sniff, pee.....ad infinitum. But she NEVER peed indoors. She also could care less about other dogs. She was a prima donna and never needed a "companion" (just pests in her mind).


----------



## Heather's

Ollie"s Mom said:


> I have a chocolate that just turned one. He was a very dark chocolate as a newborn and the breeder expected him to hold colour as his lines going back had done that. She also had kept in touch with buyers of previous litters from the same pairing and had found those pups to have held their colour. If you can find a breeder who has kept good info on your pups parents, grandparents etc. and the pups parents have had previous litters together that have held colour you up your odds of the colour holding. I am in western Canada and my breeder is no longer breeding that pairing so I cannot help you there. I have put up pictures of Hershey to let you see his colour development so far. He has lightened, but has stayed quite dark.
> View attachment 133978
> 
> View attachment 133986
> 
> 
> View attachment 133994
> [/ATTACH]


Love Hershey's chocolate color! This is the silvering side of chocolate.


----------



## davetgabby

yeah Karen .the meeting is done outside the home and like any early socialization is with knowledge that the dog is vaccinated and healthy. It is less than 30 seconds and is simply an olfactory preconditioning for when you bring one of the pups home. Havanese are no more dog social than most breeds. I would guess that I have helped directly or by finding a trainer for people who were having housemate problems whether Hav/Hav or Hav/ other breed no less than 50 times on here over the years. And my guess is there are many more that have issues that don't tell anyone about.


----------



## smemft

*Specific potty training programs?*



davetgabby said:


> There are as many opinions as households. Some research suggests there is less aggression occurs between opposite sexes ,followed by male/male and then female/female. Female/female aggression tended to be longer and more intense. But this is not by any means definitive. Pick a mate that is best of the litter if possible. If possible have them meet.


Hi Dave,

I noticed that you seem to be a canine behavioral specialist. I REALLY appreciate you taking the time to provide input; thank you. I have an understanding of operant conditioning (OC) and have utilized ABA (Applied Behavioral Analysis) it in the past with Autistic children, but it has been a long time since my ABA days.

It seems as if many puppy training programs have OC underpinnings; is this correct? Do you have any recommendations for books/videos or other resources for any particular training programs for potty training and general, rudimentary, social skills (extinguishing begging, jumping on houseguests, barking, etc.) for puppies?

Do you know of sources for empirical research on canine behavior where a layperson might have access? I have access some psychological and sociological academic journals and databases, but wouldn't even know where to start with canine research. I found these:

Welcome to the Canine Cognition Center at Yale! | Canine Cognition Center

Research Library | National Canine Research Council

but have not begun to dive in so I am not sure how much information is available there yet. What do you think about two puppies at the same time from the same litter?

Do you have any recommendations for the wait time between the first and second puppy? I would deeply appreciate any information you would be willing to offer. 
Thank you

:bounce:


----------



## krandall

smemft said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> I noticed that you seem to be a canine behavioral specialist. I REALLY appreciate you taking the time to provide input; thank you. I have an understanding of operant conditioning (OC) and have utilized ABA (Applied Behavioral Analysis) it in the past with Autistic children, but it has been a long time since my ABA days.
> 
> It seems as if many puppy training programs have OC underpinnings; is this correct? Do you have any recommendations for books/videos or other resources for any particular training programs for potty training and general, rudimentary, social skills (extinguishing begging, jumping on houseguests, barking, etc.) for puppies?
> 
> Do you know of sources for empirical research on canine behavior where a layperson might have access? I have access some psychological and sociological academic journals and databases, but wouldn't even know where to start with canine research. I found these:
> 
> Welcome to the Canine Cognition Center at Yale! | Canine Cognition Center
> 
> Research Library | National Canine Research Council
> 
> but have not begun to dive in so I am not sure how much information is available there yet. What do you think about two puppies at the same time from the same litter?
> 
> Do you have any recommendations for the wait time between the first and second puppy? I would deeply appreciate any information you would be willing to offer.
> Thank you
> 
> :bounce:


The Canine Cognition Center does great work. The best site I know of for finding a HUGE amount of cutting edge dog cognition research is: SPARCS Initative

if you can arrange to go to a conference, you will never regret it. But the conferences are also live streamed, and archived on the website. It's not cheap, but it is SUCH a worthwile cause to support, and the talks are absolutely facinating!


----------



## smemft

krandall said:


> The Canine Cognition Center does great work. The best site I know of for finding a HUGE amount of cutting edge dog cognition research is: SPARCS Initative
> 
> if you can arrange to go to a conference, you will never regret it. But the conferences are also live streamed, and archived on the website. It's not cheap, but it is SUCH a worthwile cause to support, and the talks are absolutely facinating!


- - -
Thank you!!!! Really appreciate it. 
0


----------



## davetgabby

hi Smemft , sorry I didn't get to your query earlier . For some reason I am not being notified by the site that there has been a reply to one of my subscribed threads. 
Yes all training /learning involves operant conditioning. One of the best sites for learning is Dogstar Daily. Simply do a search and you have access to any topic and many of the best trainers. No I don't recommend littermates ,and the time to add a second is up to you but make sure your first dog is well trained and no major problems. I get most of my information from the trainers on our IAABC forum as there are always new articles being shared all the time. I subscribe to a lot of blogs as well. Here are some of the more scientific .sites 
http://www.journalvetbehavior.com/

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/dog-spies/really-canine-science-is-open-access/

Dog Behavior Co-Varies with Height, Bodyweight and Skull Shape

https://centerforcaninebehaviorstudies.org/ScientificAdvisory/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2251326/

https://www.journals.elsevier.com/j...cal-applications-and-research/recent-articles

https://dogcognition.wordpress.com/

Applied Animal Behaviour Science

https://www.usask.ca/wcvm/herdmed/applied-ethology/


----------



## smemft

*Excellent resources...wow...thank you!*



davetgabby said:


> hi Smemft , sorry I didn't get to your query earlier . For some reason I am not being notified by the site that there has been a reply to one of my subscribed threads.
> Yes all training /learning involves operant conditioning. One of the best sites for learning is Dogstar Daily. Simply do a search and you have access to any topic and many of the best trainers. No I don't recommend littermates ,and the time to add a second is up to you but make sure your first dog is well trained and no major problems. I get most of my information from the trainers on our IAABC forum as there are always new articles being shared all the time. I subscribe to a lot of blogs as well. Here are some of the more scientific .sites
> http://www.journalvetbehavior.com/
> 
> https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/dog-spies/really-canine-science-is-open-access/
> 
> Dog Behavior Co-Varies with Height, Bodyweight and Skull Shape
> 
> https://centerforcaninebehaviorstudies.org/ScientificAdvisory/
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2251326/
> 
> https://www.journals.elsevier.com/j...cal-applications-and-research/recent-articles
> 
> https://dogcognition.wordpress.com/
> 
> Applied Animal Behaviour Science
> 
> https://www.usask.ca/wcvm/herdmed/applied-ethology/


- - -

These resources are so helpful! Many thanks and greatly appreciated!

:grin2:


----------

