# Hair Trim



## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

I know this topic has had to been discussed a lot on this forum but I have been searching and for the life of me can't find any info. So I apologize in advance!

I decided today to have Sophie's hair trimmed since she is such a mess right now after blowing her coat and me chopping all the mats out, figured it would be a good time and could all grow out together. I am just curious how she would look as well as looking forward to much easier grooming for a while. I don't mind brushing her but even though she is such a good girl she gets bored before I'm done and not her favorite thing. 

My groomer friend said she can do it this weekend (I'm thinking not really short just trimmed up all around) but in googling it I'm reading that double coated dogs should not be shaved they have all kinds of problems when the coat grows back, different texture, some spots don't grow back, etc (complete with photos which freaks me out). I do absolutely love the look of the full coat though and hope I can keep up with it all her life.

So is this true? If I trim her shorter, will her hair ever grow back the same as it is now or will it be different? Here is a pic I grabbed off the web (hope that was ok) just to show how I picture her trim to be.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

The "double coated" in our breed standard is a bit misleading. There are almost NO breeds except those with extremely short, tight coats like a whippet or a Boston Terrier that have NO undercoat, and ours certainly should have an undercoat. But when they are talking about "double coated breeds" in terms of shaving, they are talking about dogs like Huskies, GSD's or Corgis, that have a profuse, warm undercoat with a water-shedding layer of guard hair over the top. These dogs "blow coat" in huge tufts twice a year, when they go from winter coat to summer coat and vice versa.

While Havanese should have an undercoat, like the outer coat, it grows continuously, and each hair is shed on its own schedule. So there is no huge "coat blow" semi-annually (at least not on most of them... there are a few that do this) They can be grown out completely after being kept in a short coat, without any PERMANENT damage. The problem is that it takes about 3 years for a Havanese coat to grow out completely. Since the hair is cut to all one length when they are cut down, you can go through some funny looking stages, where they can look a little "shelf-like". Also, the cut ends will have a "harder" look, until the hair gets long enough that it is coming out in rotation, and gives a more natural looking edgs. But cutting her down will definitely not permanently ruin her coat. Lots of people do it to get through the blowing coat phase, then let it grow out again.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

I can confirm what Karen says. We had the groomer give Ricky a 1 inch puppy cut almost exactly one year ago. We went to Mexico thereafter for 3 months and did not want to trust Ricky with any of the "groomers" or "bathers" down there. I'm sure there are some good ones but we did not want to experiment finding one.

Groomers have different blades for their shavers so you can ask for the length of puppy cut you want. We saw a dog that had just been groomed in the shop and we said we wanted "that length" which turned out to be 1 inch. Your pictures look like either 3/4 or 1 inch groom to my eye.

Momi and I did not like the look of Ricky in his puppy cut. His body structure made him look more like a dachshund! It did make it easier for us to maintain him while in Mexico. However, we vowed never to cut him again other than a "sani trim." Today, one year later, his coat is about the same length as then, and it is just beautiful. We love the way his coat waves as he RLHs. People love plunging their hands deep into coat to feel the silkyness. There has been no long term damage to his coat. Ricky is producing new color highlights in his coat as he matures and as the coat gets longer. When he carries his tail on his back, the hair on his tail is so long it drapes down along his side and almost touches the floor. It makes a beautiful contrast of white over black. We do keep the hair around his eyes and beard trimmed back because Momi likes to see his eyes and doesn't like putting his head hair in a rubber band.

You should decide what is best for you and Sophie. You will not do any long term damage, although it can take some years to get it back like original. I might add that when the Vet removed Ricky's cajones, they shaved 2 inches on his front leg almost to the skin for his IV. It took 9 months to get the hair on his leg looking anything like normal. I am not going to let that happen again!

Sophie is a cupie doll no matter what you decide to do.

Ricky's Popi


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

We had our first Havanese Sparky for 15 years. He had a very nice coat and I tried to keep him full coated. I had no idea how to care for the coat properly at the time. He was usually in what I know now is a puppy cut like, the top picture. There were many times he was completely shaved to the skin because the shop said he was matted. When he was shaved his coat always grew back evenly without any change in texture. I know our groomer said that Pomeranian can never be shaved because of the problems you mentioned. You may notice a change in Sophie's coat when it grows out because she is just a puppy and the texture will change a bit. Can't wait to see Sophie's new haircut!


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

That sure helped thank you! After reading this I decided not to do it after all.  

Thanks for explaining that Karen makes perfect sense. Didn't realize there were differences in double coats in the breeds. I think Hav's are adorable in a cut but I would like to keep the long hair. I just brushed her out and she looks fab. She's such a tomboy it doesn't stay that way for long though lol. But ragamuffin is cute too. I wouldn't want to wait 3 years for her coat to get back again. I ordered some new puppy hair products to try on her last night.

Rickie! Your Popi mentioned your cajones on the internet!! You might need some puppy therapy for that. haaa. I'd love to see a picture of Rickie's white tail draping that does sound gorgeous! I chopped many mats out of Sophie's tail when she was changing coat (so glad that is over) so it has a lot of catching up to do. 

Interesting about your Pom Heather just as Karen said about the different breeds. I love the name Sparky! 15 years wow. 

I've noticed that Sophie is starting to settle more while I'm brushing her usually she spent 99% of the time trying to grab and play with the brushes but now she will lay there and enjoy it for a time. She is growing up whaaa I want to keep her at about 6 months old! She'll be 1 on Feb 1!


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Dee Dee said:


> I'd love to see a picture of Rickie's white tail draping that does sound gorgeous!


I'll try to post a picture Saturday afternoon after his bath and brush out. We will be preparing Ricky for his Competition Ring debut on Sunday. Ricky will try his hardest in competition and he is going to be stylin' while he is doing it!

Ricky's Popi


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

DeeDee I don't have a Pom, but my groomer has a few and we were just discussing the difference in coats. My groomer had a havanese that she had to shave. It took one year for the coat completely grow out and for him to become a Champion.  Sending a PM.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I might add that when the Vet removed Ricky's cajones, they shaved 2 inches on his front leg almost to the skin for his IV. It took 9 months to get the hair on his leg looking anything like normal. I am not going to let that happen again!


Yes, unless it's an emergency, and there is a need to get an IV in in a REAL hurry, hurry, any tech worth their salt should be able to get an IV into a Havanese by just wetting the hair down with alcohol. Kodi has needed IV's twice, and both times, I've been very clear that they were NOT to shave his leg. They got the IV in just fine.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dee Dee said:


> That sure helped thank you! After reading this I decided not to do it after all.
> 
> Thanks for explaining that Karen makes perfect sense. Didn't realize there were differences in double coats in the breeds. I think Hav's are adorable in a cut but I would like to keep the long hair. I just brushed her out and she looks fab. She's such a tomboy it doesn't stay that way for long though lol. But ragamuffin is cute too. I wouldn't want to wait 3 years for her coat to get back again. I ordered some new puppy hair products to try on her last night.
> 
> Rickie! Your Popi mentioned your cajones on the internet!! You might need some puppy therapy for that. haaa. I'd love to see a picture of Rickie's white tail draping that does sound gorgeous! I chopped many mats out of Sophie's tail when she was changing coat (so glad that is over) so it has a lot of catching up to do.


Once she's COMPLETELY over blowing coat (you may have a couple more times, but they won't be as bad as the first) you will probably find that Sophie's adult coat is MUCH easier to groom. Most people who have what it takes to get through blowing coat without cutting them down, are pleasantly surprised to find that their coats really aren't that much work as adults. I comb my guys out just about daily, because I love them to look their best. But there are times that I've gone 5-7 days, either because I've been away or because I've been sick, and they had very few knots when I finally got to do them again.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

krandall said:


> Yes, unless it's an emergency, and there is a need to get an IV in in a REAL hurry, hurry, any tech worth their salt should be able to get an IV into a Havanese by just wetting the hair down with alcohol. Kodi has needed IV's twice, and both times, I've been very clear that they were NOT to shave his leg. They got the IV in just fine.


Scout and Truffles both had IV's and were not shaved. I was with Scout and the Vet just slipped it in without any problems.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> any tech worth their salt should be able to get an IV into a Havanese by just wetting the hair down with alcohol.


Yes, it was a rookie mistake on my part. Won't happen again! This old dog has learned many new tricks on HF!



krandall said:


> Once she's COMPLETELY over blowing coat (you may have a couple more times, but they won't be as bad as the first) you will probably find that Sophie's adult coat is MUCH easier to groom. Most people who have what it takes to get through blowing coat without cutting them down, are pleasantly surprised to find that their coats really aren't that much work as adults.


Yes, I have found this to be true, too! Ricky gets combed out AT A MINIMUM, every 3 to 4 days. He gets a bath every 10 days.


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## boomana (Jul 9, 2015)

Lola is 8.5 months and looking like a ragamuffin, even though she's not yet blowing coat. She's got at least three colors to her brown as it changes (darker at the roots in some places and lighter in others, and white hairs starting up on her back that are also very noticeable in her tail. Though I comb her out twice a day, and spend more time on her topknot than I do on my own hair, she's always looking a mess, and usually with a wet face. I've considered cutting her down a couple times, but I also don't really want to. I'm a tad nervous as I'm pretty sure she's going to be blowing coat and going into heat right about the same time. If I have to use diapers, I'm thinking that area will mat easily. I guess I'll find out.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Yes, it was a rookie mistake on my part. Won't happen again! This old dog has learned many new tricks on HF!


Not just you! LOTS of people don't even think about it and have their beautiful dog come home with ugly (and unnecessary!) shaved patches>


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

boomana said:


> Lola is 8.5 months and looking like a ragamuffin, even though she's not yet blowing coat. She's got at least three colors to her brown as it changes (darker at the roots in some places and lighter in others, and white hairs starting up on her back that are also very noticeable in her tail. Though I comb her out twice a day, and spend more time on her topknot than I do on my own hair, she's always looking a mess, and usually with a wet face. I've considered cutting her down a couple times, but I also don't really want to. I'm a tad nervous as I'm pretty sure she's going to be blowing coat and going into heat right about the same time. If I have to use diapers, I'm thinking that area will mat easily. I guess I'll find out.


Most of the Havanese that I know personally have not needed panties when they've been in heat, or at most, for a day or two. They don't bleed a lot and generally keep themselves very clean. Just put a towel over any furniture where she's likely to sleep, and you'll probably do fine!


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

So thankful for you guys and am glad I won't be trimming her after all. I can easily keep up with brushing 1-7 days.

boomama that is just what happened to us, coat was going wild and in heat all at the same time. She came in a little more than 9 months. So glad that is behind us (and will be spayed in Feb) but we found just what Karen says, Sophie really didn't bleed much at all just a little staining a few times. I had panties on her only during nosework class and a couple times visiting someone else as didn't want her to decide to start really bleeding at someones house (she never did) but didn't notice any extra matting back there. At that point she was pretty much one big mass of mats going on anyway 

There were times with my last dog children that the vet let me shave the spot...he found that easier than trying to figure out how big himself  My poor Great Dane Fred only lived to 6 and never was without a shaved spot either new or growing back from whatever awful medical thing going on with him at the moment. They are a heartbreak breed. 

My poor Hallie looked like this after a myelogram....


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Hallie was a gorgeous girl even with her shaved spot!  I understand why some vets shave the spot since I start a lot of IV's. They want to secure it well so it doesn't fall out.  If the dog is going under anesthesia there is no reason to shave, just wrap. Scout did have a Morphine injection about a half an hour before the IV and being intubated so he was pretty sleepy although awake.

Truffles came into heat around seven months. I purchased the cutest brown panties with pink dots, but they were never 
needed.  She just spotted tiny little drops a couple of times while jumping. Not one dog even took any interest her at the park during her evening walk!

Scout was in a puppy cut when he was about one year because I thought it might be cute. He did looked great, but I wanted to let is grow out. If the coat has areas that have been trimmed the puppy cut is a good idea. The coat needs to all be the same length while growing out or it will never be even. I have been through this too many times in the past with my Sparky dog!


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Oh now you have me rethinking again. Her coat isn't too uneven but she's pretty chopped on parts of her legs and down her back legs. Maybe I'll just shave one side of her and see which I like best lol

Interesting on Truffles, Sophie was around a lot of dogs too in class etc and none of them ever showed interest in her, or where she had been, either. Which is nice! 

It took forever for Hallie to grow that spot back and her coat was always softer in that area as well as stood straight up more than the rest of her back. <3


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

I will always remember one Christmas with my Sparky dog. Thought I would take him to the groomer so he would be all fluffy for a Christmas picture. When I picked him up he was completely shaved down to his pink skin.  He didn't look like my dog! They said he was matted. He looked so sad. My husband was so upset. He said I needed to get him a coat for walking because he looked so funny. Now we have a home groomer so there are no more surprises. :biggrin1:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Heather Glen said:


> If the coat has areas that have been trimmed the puppy cut is a good idea. The coat needs to all be the same length while growing out or it will never be even. I have been through this too many times in the past with my Sparky dog!


I don't think this is really true. It will be noticeable for a while, but eventually, as the hair changes over time, it will even out... Otherwise those dogs who have a shaved leg for an IV, or worse, an entire shaved leg for a patella repair, would have one leg that looked different forever. They don't. It grows out to match the rest of the coat, thoug, of course, on a long coated Hav, that's going to take time.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> Otherwise those dogs who have a shaved leg for an IV, or worse, an entire shaved leg for a patella repair, would have one leg that looked different forever..


Yes, that has been our experience. The hair on Ricky's leg where it was shaved for the IV took 9 months to grow out, but now it looks like the rest of his hair and you cannot tell where it was shaved. I just measured the hair on the front leg where the IV was and it is 3 inches long and matches the hair on his other front leg. So it took about 13 months to grow 3 inches in that spot. The hair on his back and upper body is longer (4 to 5 inches) and appears to grow at a faster rate.

Ricky's Popi


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Yowza!
I do think I'll leave Sophie's coat alone I would have done it a few weeks ago when her coat was a mat ball! But I am really not finding mats right now. It if ain't broke don't fix it right


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dee Dee said:


> Yowza!
> I do think I'll leave Sophie's coat alone I would have done it a few weeks ago when her coat was a mat ball! But I am really not finding mats right now. It if ain't broke don't fix it right


Yeah, now you sent them over to MISS PIXEL!!!


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Yes, that has been our experience. The hair on Ricky's leg where it was shaved for the IV took 9 months to grow out, but now it looks like the rest of his hair and you cannot tell where it was shaved. I just measured the hair on the front leg where the IV was and it is 3 inches long and matches the hair on his other front leg. So it took about 13 months to grow 3 inches in that spot. The hair on his back and upper body is longer (4 to 5 inches) and appears to grow at a faster rate.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


The coat will always eventually grow out. It just depends how long you want to wait for it to be even.  If I had a puppy and the body had areas trimmed out I do a puppy cut. If a small area of the leg is shaved it is not that noticeable. I have been through so many grow outs throughout the years. To me it's like having a puppy and starting over. I always remember how cute Sparky was when he start to get fluffy again.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Ricky's Popi, we are looking forward to seeing Ricky's photo. Karen, thank you for giving me hope that I will be able to maintain Shama's coat once it is long. So far, she has not had a haircut. She's only had the usual groomer maintenance. I just need to work on getting her to let me touch her head. I would like to be able to pull her hair up so it's out of her eyes and run my little comb through the hair on her muzzle, but she whips her head around so much that it's a real challenge. Any advice on preventing her muzzle from looking stringy, especially when she's been chewing on her pig's ear? Dee Dee, I always find your posts interesting!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ShamaMama said:


> Ricky's Popi, we are looking forward to seeing Ricky's photo. Karen, thank you for giving me hope that I will be able to maintain Shama's coat once it is long. So far, she has not had a haircut. She's only had the usual groomer maintenance. I just need to work on getting her to let me touch her head. I would like to be able to pull her hair up so it's out of her eyes and run my little comb through the hair on her muzzle, but she whips her head around so much that it's a real challenge. Any advice on preventing her muzzle from looking stringy, especially when she's been chewing on her pig's ear? Dee Dee, I always find your posts interesting!


Pig's ears are not the best of chews, IMO, because they are very fatty, and high in empty calories. Because of the fat content, it' really impossible to keep them from making facial hair stringy looking. Only shampoo will get it out.

It's REALLY important for you to get her used to staying still for facial grooming, or as she approaches blowing coat, you'll find that her whole muzzle is matting. I find that the best way to get mine to stay still is to gently hold on to the hair on their chin. move with them, but don't let go. Eventually, they realize you aren't going to give up, and start to stay still.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Dee Dee said:


> I'd love to see a picture of Rickie's white tail draping that does sound gorgeous!





Ricky Ricardo said:


> I'll try to post a picture Saturday afternoon after his bath and brush out.


Okay DeeDee, here is picture of Ricky after his bath and brush out today. His white tail drapes to within an inch or two from the ground. Ricky has his "game face" on for the competition tomorrow. I don't know if we will qualify or not, but Ricky will look irresistible!

Second picture was taken yesterday from our backyard. Snow is down to 3,500/4000 feet. Yes, this is the Palm Springs area, just gorgeous! I like the the palm trees with the snowy mountains backdrop.

Third picture is the front of Ricky's casa during Christmas. Ricky wanted to make sure it was lit up enough so Sandy Paws wouldn't miss it! (we have solar panels on our roof, so we make our own electricity)

Ricky's Popi


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

When Kodi started competing, I had a couple of judges tell me that they wished they could award "cute points"... Because Kodi would get them all. I am pretty sure Ricky would qualify too!


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Little Ricky looking good!!!:biggrin1: 
The mountains are beautiful! Haven't been to Palm Springs for 40yrs! Looks like it was quite the Merry Christmas at your house. 
Just beautiful!


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Beautiful pictures of Ricky and his surroundings! Karen, what chews do you recommend after we stop giving Shama pigs' ears? She likes bully springs, and every once in a while she chews on her cow's ear. She also likes Himalayan Chews.


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## Laurmann2000 (Sep 12, 2015)

Ricky, you are just too cute! Nice Christmas decorations and surrounding view. Good luck tomorrow.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ShamaMama said:


> Beautiful pictures of Ricky and his surroundings! Karen, what chews do you recommend after we stop giving Shama pigs' ears? She likes bully springs, and every once in a while she chews on her cow's ear. She also likes Himalayan Chews.


Himalayan Chews are great as long as tour dog doesn't go through them TOO fast (good food quality, but lots of calories if they eat them up fast). The rest of the time, mine get moose antler blade slices from Acadia Antlers. Their favorites are bacon flavor and maple flavor.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Ricky Sophie wants to know if she can have your tail! I love how the white drapes down against his dark like that. He is one stunning little guy!!!!!!
Gorgeous snow shot! I'm going to Utah in a couple of weeks can't wait to see the snow covered mountains.
Rickiy's house is very impressive! Santa would never miss that. I love Christmas lights, but I don't put any up. Just like to appreciate other peoples hard work


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Karen do you not give bully sticks and if not why not? Do you worry about tooth damage with the antlers? I have noticed Sophie has started chewing more aggressively lately and when she chews her antler it sounds like teeth breaking! So no more antlers. But it seems the bully sticks would be gentler than antler on her teeth not as hard but yet hard to get off a big enough chunk to possibly choke on. She needs something to chew on it's hard to find anything safe but still chewable.

I agree about pigs ears, they are way too fatty I know dogs who got pancreatitis flare ups from chewing them.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dee Dee said:


> Karen do you not give bully sticks and if not why not? Do you worry about tooth damage with the antlers? I have noticed Sophie has started chewing more aggressively lately and when she chews her antler it sounds like teeth breaking! So no more antlers. But it seems the bully sticks would be gentler than antler on her teeth not as hard but yet hard to get off a big enough chunk to possibly choke on. She needs something to chew on it's hard to find anything safe but still chewable.
> 
> I agree about pigs ears, they are way too fatty I know dogs who got pancreatitis flare ups from chewing them.


I can't use bully sticks because Kodi has a beef intolerance. And it's too hard to keep them away from the others with him "on the hunt". (he just doesn't GET that his butt will be itching like crazy the next day!  )

I ONLY use moose antler blade slices, and preferably the ones that have been boiled in flavoring. They are MUCH softer than elk or deer antlers... they are actually consumable, though it takes them a long time to get through them. So I don't have to worry about broken teeth.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Is this the right thing? (or could you post a link if not?) They don't have much here for product description and I don't see any "blades" or flavored ones....

http://acadiaantlers.com/shop/small-moose-shovel-slice/


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

krandall said:


> Otherwise those dogs who have a shaved leg for an IV, or worse, an entire shaved leg for a patella repair, would have one leg that looked different forever.


I know tell me about it and I have both legs to deal with. The hair is growing back very nicely but Mae is WAY shorter than I like her and we are now in this transient stage. Still doing water therapy so I'm not too unhappy her hair isn't too long. She's at the groomer today and she's not using clippers. I like to call it the 1/2 Lowchen look. Her little but was very cute however with no hair LOL.


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## Annabellam (Nov 2, 2015)

She still looks adorable anyway. And if it's going to take that long to get back to how it was, that's quite some time. Sammy has gotten a trim once since we got him and the hair is now just getting back in shape. It is also important to have a trusted groomer.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

I have tried to keep my two full coated just for fun. Truffles looks girlie with her different hair bands and bows. My husband would kill me it I ever touched Scout's coat!  I am the one who does all the brushing and combing though. :roll eyes: He is so soft and fluffy. I know from my first havanese Sparky the puppy cut was so much easier to care for and looked cute too! Spa day today!


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Dee Dee said:


> Is this the right thing? (or could you post a link if not?) They don't have much here for product description and I don't see any "blades" or flavored ones....
> 
> Small Moose Shovel Slice - Acadia Antlers


I'd like to know about the moose antlers too. Karen, does Amazon carry them?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dee Dee said:


> Is this the right thing? (or could you post a link if not?) They don't have much here for product description and I don't see any "blades" or flavored ones....
> 
> Small Moose Shovel Slice - Acadia Antlers


"shovel" is the same as "blade"... It's the flat part of the moose antler rather than the tines. But this is the size I get for my guys:

Moose Taster from Acadia Antlers - A great way to start

I usually get the flavored ones, but they aren't listed on the site right now... They may be out because of Christmas. But they are really good about answering e-mails, too. My guy's favorite is maple, followed by bacon.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> I'd like to know about the moose antlers too. Karen, does Amazon carry them?


No, they are from Acadia Antlers. See the link I posted above.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Thank you! I just emailed and asked them if they will have more of the flavored ones.


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