# at the end of my rope...



## TilliesMom

... hey guys. 
It's been a rough couple of months for us with Tillie and her health. 
She has developed this horrible trembling that happens frequently, we can no longer take her in the car, she is a nervous WRECK in the car. and now she has started trembling at all other times of the day as well. I have taken her to the vet, he can't find anything wrong. She had the infection/crystals in her urine about 2 months ago... Honestly, she is stressing me out so much. 
She isn't the same dog. I don't know what is going on.
I have been thinking and I thought maybe she just needs more one on one time, more attention as I have been busier than usual recently. So, over the past fews days I have been making a huge point of playing games, training, playing fetch, etc. I thought maybe it was helping as she has seemed happier today... Well, tonight, she pee'd on my sons bed. She hasn't done that since her infection. My husband is IRATE. insists it is behavioral and because she had an infection when we got her pet insurance, it won't cover any urinary issues. We can't afford another vet bill, he says business as 'usual' and that we have plans and that she can't interfere with our plans.
I fear if things aren't resolved soon, he may make me rehome her.
I can't believe I am even confessing all of this. Tillie has always been my light, my companion, our joy... and something is wrong. I have been saying it for weeks and weeks and no one will listen to me. The kids insist they hate her .... she has become fearful and aggressive. I KNOW she has to be in pain, something is seriously wrong, yet nothing can be found ... I haven't wanted to come here and tell you all what has been happening because I feel like I have failed. I have failed Tillie, I have failed myself and my kids.
I just don't know what to do. There is something wrong, I know it. For her to pee on the bed again tonight. I know she has an infection or the crystals are back ... she is trying to TELL me something. I want to take her to the vet tomorrow, but we have out of town plans and because of her recent fear of the car we can't take her with us, so a friend is going to come over mid day to let her out and play with her for a bit, but how can I leave her knowing there is something wrong and that she needs to go to the vet.. and then we run into Christmas.... my husband insists that we have plans and that Tillie isn't going to change those plans and that we can't afford another vet bill.
I don't know why I am telling you all this, I guess I just needed to vent to those that I know understand my heartbreak and frustration. I just don't know what to do and I miss my little girl so much... I haven't seen her smile in months....


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## CacheHavs

Tammy, So sorry to hear that Tillie is not herself, IF you can take her in to see yoru vet you might ask him/her about the possibility of 
*Generalized Tremor Syndrome (GTS). *GTS is also called steroid responsive tremor syndrome or white shaker dog syndrome. First noticed in small, white dogs such as Maltese and West Highland white terriers, it can occur in dogs of any size, breed, or color. No one knows what causes GTS.
GTS symptoms usually start between 9 months and 2 years of age. Treatment generally consists of corticosteroids like prednisone. Results can often be seen within a week of starting treatment.

Please keep us informed how things go. I hope your husband comes around to see the fact that something is going on, and just like if it were one of his children Tillie too needs to be looked after.


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## HavaneseSoon

((((((((Hugs))))))))) If we are going out of town, the boys are coming with me. If they can' t come then it will be short trip no longer than 3 days and I will be calling to find out if they are eating. My boys are my love, lifeline. Hang in there, give Tilly lots of attention, she maybe picking up the stress and the business due to the holidays. Have you tried the thunder jacket?


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## Tuss

hope you figure it out. Dogs can get anxiety disorders and even depression just like humans. My friends' german shepherd was on prozac and it really helped! Expensive though. 

Are there any vet schools in your area that might be cheaper than a regular vet and might do a more thorough workup? What about an animal trainer/behaviourist? Even a trusted experienced dog person like a trainer but be able to give you some help/advice that might be cheaper than the vet. 

Christmas is a stressful time for animals; new sights and sounds in the house, people, decorated trees in the house, change of routine, etc. She might just be feeling the stress of the family.

Another thing to try is more exercise. A tired dog is less likely to get anxious, stressed, aggressive, etc. I nice walk every morning might be good for both of you and good bonding time as well. Sounds like you're pretty stressed out as well. 

Hope Tillie doesn't have anything serious and settles down.


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## whimsy

I feel so horrlbly sick about what you just told us about Tillie.. I know how upset you are hon because I would feel exactly the same way if Whimsy were sick like this. They are like our children! The worst part is that your husband is being so cold about it. I would stay home,take her to the vet and ignore what your DH says. She needs help and you are the only one who can give it to her.( I know it is easy for me to say ignore your husband, but I have been married for 45 years and I would re-home him over Whimsy in a heartbeat) I will be thinking about you and Tillie and hope that you can get things resolved!


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## shimpli

Ohh Tammy, first of all, receive a BIG hug from me. I know exactly how you feel. It must be so difficult to deal with this problem without your DH support. But Tillie is your baby too and you need to do what you think in your heart you should do for her. I hope you find a way to make him understand how important she is for you. Hang in there, try to relax a bit as she might be feeling your anxiety too. We are here for you !!!!


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## gelbergirl

I am so sorry to hear this, and will check this thread later for an update from the vet. In the meantime, is she in a car seat in the car?


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## lanabanana

No advice from me, as I've not experienced anything like what you are describing, but you have my full sympathy! You've received some good advice already and I hope something will help. I can imagine how worried you are.

Hugs!
Alanna, Baxter and Tess


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## Pipersmom

I'm so sorry Tammy and I think you are right and something is wrong. You know her best and should follow your instincts. 

I am pretty sure someone on the forum was having issues with their dog, it may have been a year or more ago but this sounds very familiar. Heathers post reminded me of it. Please search the forum for white dog syndrome or white shaker syndrome and read that thread, it may help you. 

Hugs to you and Tillie and praying it's nothing serious.


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## HalleBerry

Just on the off chance - in the previous testing, did you have her thyroid and bile acid tests done? And have you had her tested for Addison's disease? I would think that YOU know your dog better than anyone - and if you believe something is wrong, something is wrong. The only question is what.

I'm so sorry you are going through this....


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## krandall

Oh, Tammy. I feel so bad. And you have NOT failed!!! You are one of the best, most conscientious dog owners i know! Whatever happens, it is NOT your fault!!!

I wouldn't let my husband bully me into not attending to my animal's needs, but I also know that's hard to do. (like Evelyn, I've had a lot more years to practice standing up for myself!). And the timing COULDN'T be worse, but that tends to be the case with these things, whether it's kids or animals. I've spent holidays in cold barns with colicking horses and mares having trouble foaling.

That said, I DON'T think Tillies's problem is acute, and it's going to take some time to sort out. Could you call your regular vet, explain the symptoms (just like last time) and ask if, under the circumstances, you could pick up another round of antibiotics (or whatever she was on before) to get her started on.

Then, after Christmas, I'd see if I could find a good holistic vet in the area, who can look at the WHOLE picture. If that person is experienced with Havanese, so much the better. I'd also ask that vet if they have a trainer they could recommend who cna also look at the whole situation and help figure it out.

The problem is that whether the root cause is physical or behavioral, there are serious behavioral aspects to it at the moment. And sometimes things that start out as physical problems can become ingrained behaioral problems unless they are approached from both angles. Certainly, I wouldn't let her NEAR the bedrooms without close supervision for a long, LONG time at this point. (I'm talking months to a year, here... You've really got to TOTALLY prevent that behavior, and let her start building positive experiences again. 

Another resource that I haven't heard you mention is Tillie's breeder. Have you contacted her? Breeders know the dogs in their lines. She might know of another dog that developed similar problems, or be able to give you some insight into how best to approach the problem.

In any case, you ar NOT a bad person, and Tillie is NOT a bad dog. You need to remind DH that Tillie is a member of the family, and her needs have to be considered too. Just as it is expensive to buy a nice dog, there are also expenses (often completely unforeseen) that can come up once you have an animal. He needs to understand that, and at least not get in your way when you are trying so hard to figure out a solution.


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## jemmax

Tammy - please don't think you have failed with Tillie - we all here know that is not the case. 

I wish I was closer so I could help you out during this time - is there anyone you can rely on to give Tillie lots of attention / care while you are out of town....I know how stressful everything seems right now - and I do believe if you think something is wrong you know best....please try and be strong - it will work itself out

Big hugs


Jemma and Max


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## sandypaws

Your dilemma with Tillie, DH and the kids brought tears to my eyes. You have definitely NOT failed. We all know what a great Mom you've been to Tillie and always done what's best for her. I have no advice for you other than to go with your gut instincts, as you know her best, and if she doesn't seem right to you, she probably isn't. I hope and pray that all goes well for you and Tillie. Hang in there and know that we are all here for you. Glad you vented to us. You need someplace to turn right now without the support of your family. We're all thinking of you.


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## lfung5

OMG. Tammy I am so sorry to hear this. You must be beside yourself. I know how much you love Tillie. It seems like there must be something going on. How could she change so quickly? It seems to me like she is shaking out of pain. I wonder if you would consider trying another vet? 
I hope you get this resolved. It would be a shame for you to have to rehome her. Whatever happens we support you though. I know Tillie was never neglected! You are a great furmom


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## Ditto's Mom

whimsy said:


> I feel so horrlbly sick about what you just told us about Tillie.. I know how upset you are hon because I would feel exactly the same way if Whimsy were sick like this. They are like our children! The worst part is that your husband is being so cold about it. I would stay home,take her to the vet and ignore what your DH says. She needs help and you are the only one who can give it to her.( I know it is easy for me to say ignore your husband, but I have been married for 45 years and I would re-home him over Whimsy in a heartbeat) I will be thinking about you and Tillie and hope that you can get things resolved![/QUOT
> 
> I so agree!


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## marlowe'sgirl

So sorry about all of this! It does sound like something urinary is going on. Marlowe had an accident for the first time in years while laying on the couch. UTI with antibiotics cleared him up, but the vet said I could just bring a urine sample (catch some with tupperware) if it happens again rather than the whole ordeal of bringing Marlowe to the vet. Perhaps you could do something similar? Just having them run a urine sample and give you antibiotics would be less expensive than having a vet exam as well - at least the way my vet charges. It might be worth the expense of having them culture the urine because the bug she has may be resistant to the standard antibiotics and she needs different ones. I'm certain everything started because Tillie isn't feeling well and not anything you did. The only time Marlowe has ever snapped or had an accident (after puppyhood) was while being sick. 

I'd throw in the argument with the husband that you're not going to be good company knowing your kid is sick and you're not doing anything about it. It'll be better for all involved if you did what you could to get Tillie better (ie take her to the vet) than worry, doing nothing until after Christmas.


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## Suzi

After reading other members responses two or three really make sense to me. First Karens idea of the vet giving another round of antibiotics wouldn't cost very much. Did you ever have a follow up to really know the infection was gone? My sisters dog had to go on three rounds before she got better. I know Augie didn't get better the first round. Can you try a sedative for the car ride and take her with you? I have friends who give their dogs something like benadryl ( not positive that's what they give. I can call and find out the dose if you want.
I can remember you telling us your son got bit by her or something like that. Do you think maybe the problem could be how he treats her? I'm just trying to think not blame. In my heart I would have a problem not addressing her needs by first getting more antibiotics then taking her with you so you can monitor her needs better.
I know what its like to be having financial problems and only having enough to house and feed yourself. Please don't even think about being a failer you are by far someone I look at as being so not that! Your Husband is obviously stressed. Take a deep breath call the vet about the antibiotics try to take her with you and enjoy Christmas.:grouphug: 
PS DO NOT FEEL MONEY IS AN ISSUE I KNOW PEOPLE HERE WOULD HELP IF YOU NEED MORE. I would send you enough to find out if I had it.


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## TilliesMom

thanks for all the comments and encourgement... I really need it.

My husband is certain it is a behavioral issue ... I am certain it is a physical issue. There doesn't seem to be any middle ground.

I am with her, so far today no shaking, no odd behavior... staying home with her.
My plan is to take her to the vet on Monday when he is at work. and charge it. lol
Unless of course something goes horribly bad between now and then.
please pray for Tillie and for all of us. I was crying into the wee hours last night. I miss my girl so much... so very much. And to not have the support and love of my family is tearing me apart. AND to see how cold and unfeeling they have become towards Tillie breaks my heart. I keep telling them pushing her away and ignoring her is NOT going to help. SHe needs to know we love her unconditionally... it's like there is something wrong so they don't want her anymore, I can not understand how we have gone all this time and now they are reacting this way. I know they love her deep down, but I think they are just as tired as I am of these behaviors and miss our old Tillie, they don't know how to express that, I think. sigh.
I am loving her with everything, hoping she knows we love her and will take care of her ...
Oh and I am totally okay with seeing another vet, I'm looking around for one now, the one I see now is a natural kind of holistic vet. Maybe she needs a more in depth medicinal dr.?
thank you again. so thankful I can come here and have friends who truly understand.


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## Suzi

Your new insurance I hope would cover the testing for her trembling. It includes a urine test blood work ect... I think It would be a good idea to go to another more medical type vet.


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## jemmax

Does anyone live near Tillie that could offer a good recommendation for a vet ?


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## misstray

No advice to give, but just want to send you positive thoughts and lets you know I'm thinking of you and feel for your situation. You definitely aren't a failure.


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## motherslittlehelper

Tammy, I am so sorry and sad to read of your predicament and that Tillie isn't doing well. I agree with your plan of getting Tillie checked again. In my old age , I have learned to listen to my gut and I feel, as a rule, that women have a stronger instinctual sense than men when something is wrong with the ones we love. So, if you feel Tillie has a physical problem, I would definitely pursue getting her checked to rule that out, even if it means sneaking her to the vet. I would also use this as a teaching opportunity for your children, and maybe your husband too. That as a member of the family, Tillie deserves love, understanding and empathy - not only when things are hunky dory, but in the bad times too. After all, I am sure you have shown your children love and understanding when they are sick or their behavior isn't stellar. Tillie depends on you all to care for her, even more so when she is sick or something is wrong. She has no one else. And especially since Tillie hasn't always been like this. Ask your children to put themselves in her place and think about how would they want their family to treat them if it was them instead of Tillie who wasn't feeling well. 

We are again treating Augie for urinary tract infection - no crystals this time. He started peeing on my throw rug that is in front of the front door. I noticed he was also more quiet. Subtle things that my husband did not pick up on. He was that way with the kids too. I have relied on my gut a lot over the years - and most times, I am on target. 

I will keep you in my thoughts and hope you are able to get to the bottom of the problem and that we hear better news soon. :hug:


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## Buzzys Mom

I am so sorry. Buzzy gets nervous a LOT- especially in the car. We have a prescription for Xanax that we give him before car rides, and that helps a LOT. Lately he has been nervous with a lot of people in our house (Hanukkah, Holiday Party, etc) but once everyone leaves he is fine. If he ever made in the house I would know it is a UTI and call the vet- they know us by now and I don't have to bring him in anymore- I just go and pick up the meds. Maybe call them and tell them you suspect she needs antibiotics because of her unusual behavior and then you won't have to bring her in for testing. Buzzy also shakes when he is sick and behaves strangely too...


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## davetgabby

Tammy, So sorry to hear this. Nearly all professional trainers or behavioral experts will tell you that the first line of attack when things appear somewhat suddenly, is to look at physical issues. I think that is where you need to start. If your vet hasn't done a full panel of blood tests ,that would be the next best thing to do. I would definitely include thyroid test in this. Hope you can get the others to help , this affects them if it affects you. You do what you've got to do. This is obviously hugely important to you. Hugs Dave


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## HavaneseSoon

Tuss said:


> hope you figure it out. Dogs can get anxiety disorders and even depression just like humans. My friends' german shepherd was on prozac and it really helped! Expensive though.
> 
> Are there any vet schools in your area that might be cheaper than a regular vet and might do a more thorough workup? What about an animal trainer/behaviourist? Even a trusted experienced dog person like a trainer but be able to give you some help/advice that might be cheaper than the vet.
> 
> Christmas is a stressful time for animals; new sights and sounds in the house, people, decorated trees in the house, change of routine, etc. She might just be feeling the stress of the family.
> 
> Another thing to try is more exercise. A tired dog is less likely to get anxious, stressed, aggressive, etc. I nice walk every morning might be good for both of you and good bonding time as well. Sounds like you're pretty stressed out as well.
> 
> Hope Tillie doesn't have anything serious and settles down.


Oh so Right! A tired dog is a good dog!


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## Atticus

oh Tammy, I was worried when I saw your post, but had no idea. I'm so sorry.Hope you can figure out something soon. Hope you know how much everyone here on the forum loves you and Tillie! Jody


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## Lizzie'sMom

Tammy, this has brought tears to my eyes. I am so sorry. I am wondering if there are a few things going on here. She may very well be in pain and thus the trembling. UTI's feel awful. You mentioned that everyone is treating her differently-pushing her away and being cold towards her. That could be causing her to be fearful. I hope this gets resolved and please keep us updated. We are here to support you!


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## Becky Chittenden

Hope the problem is physical and treatable, poor Tillie. I also hope your family comes back around to give her the love and support she needs.


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## mmphelps

I'm so sorry! You are NOT a failure! If you know something is wrong then you are right. Mommies always know. Tillie relies on you to advocate for her and get her the help she needs. You are definitely her person and it is your role, sadly to the exclusion of other family members. But maybe at the end of the day, this experience will be a learning opportunity for your family to be more compassionate.

Once when Buster was sick with an ear infection, he bit my husband. He would NEVER bite otherwise. He also trembled when he was in pain. Perhaps your son unknowingly touched the part of her body that hurts and that's why she bit. perhaps it's a part of her body that gets touched frequently and that's what could be causing the aggression. Something is wrong with Tillie and they haven't found it yet, and I agree with you that she is trying to communicate it. That's the toughest thing: they can't tell us and that's why we often feel helpless and feel like we have failed. We all know you are doing your best and we support you. Please check in and let us know any updates. Big warm hug.

Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## mmphelps

Quoted earlier in the thread: "Another thing to try is more exercise. A tired dog is less likely to get anxious, stressed, aggressive, etc.". End quote.

I would hold off on exercising her too much. If she is physically ill and/or in pain--which seems pretty likely--she will need her energy to heal and recuperate. Perhaps the vet can prescribe some pain meds or mild sedatives? If you see improvement from either medication, it could be an indication of the cause of her problem.

I'm throwing out every idea I can think of, Hoping that something I suggest might ring a bell and be helpful. Xoxo

Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## My2Havs

Sorry I can't contribute any more suggestions than what's already been posted. Have you explained to the kids that Tillie might be in pain, just like they are sometimes and it makes her not act normally? Usually kids can relate if you make it personal to them. You know Tillie better than anyone in the family, I hope your husband will come to understand that. 
Here's a link to financial assistance that I kept for future reference. Maybe that will help if this situation becomes more complicated. You can explain to your husband that there are resources available.
http://speakingforspot.com/?p=Financial Assistance for Veterinary Care
Hope there's good news soon.
Monica, Dooley & Roxie


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## jabojenny

Hi Tammy,
Nothing really to add here except I'll be thinking of you and Tillie. Oh by they way you are very far from being a failure! Keep you chin up!


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## TilliesMom

thanks so much everyone!
I am keeping a very close eye on her and spending some much needed time with her.
She IS going outside to pee a lot. I am going to try to call her vet on Monday (if they are open) and hope that based on her history and symptoms that he will give me another Rx... if not then we will go in. I plan on having a full blood/urine work up done after the 1st of the year asap. I know in my gut something is wrong.
My husband and kids love Tillie, but my husband is SUPER sick and is so overwhelmed with work, I think he is just stressed out and then I am stressed about Tillie and she is feeding off my stress and well... we are just a big ol mess over here.


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## Murphysmom2011

Hi Tammy,

I am so sorry to hear about your stress with Tillie. I wished we lived closer and could help you out.

Murphy went through a problem with crystals in his urine/bladder infection last spring. He actually had to go through two rounds of antibiotics and the vet also prescribed Methigel which is a urinary acidifier. methigel was not very expensive, but seemed to help a lot. Once we got the problem cleared up, I switched Murphy to a raw diet and we have not had issues since. A raw diet can be more acidic which can counter balance the alkaline issues which cause problems. Since Murphy and Tillie have the same parents, I wonder if you should contact Jodie to see if this is common in her dogs. 

It seems like Tillie is very stressed and with the family members being upset with her it is probably making her worse. I know if my daughter gets upset and yells, Murphy will run into his crate. These dogs definitely key in on our emotions and feelings.

Do you live close enough to U.C. Davis? I know they have a wonderful veterinary program and might be able to help you.

Big hugs from me and Murphy! I really hope you find out what is wrong and life gets better soon!!


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## angiern2004

Wonder if there is something you can add to Tillie's already established diet to add acidity. I'll be thinking of you and hope to hear if the doc listens and gives you antibiotics without seeing her. 

Glad you're planning on a full work up after the first of the year. Maybe then your hubby won't be so stressed, with the holidays past. 

HUGS. And you are in no way a failure. Not at all. You're so in tune with your dog that its crazy. Failure is not the word. Frustrated with your hubby and family is more like it. 

You're welcome to come down and take her to Trooper's vet. I'd go with you. Might be far for you, but know that the offer stands. Don't forget I'm a hop skip and jump past your mom, off of 65. 

Hang in there. You know what is right.


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## andra

Ok, take a deep breathe and just exhale and repeat. Feel your whole body relaxing with each breath and visualize your stressors rolling down off of you, like water. 

You are a good person, a good mother, wife and furbaby mommy. Right now things are tense and stressful and everybody is triggering each other which is only compounding things. Almost like a perfect storm of tension, anxiety and stress. 

This situation WILL resolve itself and your family will go back to a more stable and peaceful place....you will get Tillie checked out and a solution and/or plan will be formulated. I know Dionna has recurrent irritated private parts and we have had a few different medicated creams and washes for the area so I certainly believe that it is possible that Tillie is having continued issues.

I am going to pray for you and your entire family. I am praying for Tillie. I am sending prayers and healing energy to envelope your entire family and praying for your vet to diagnose what is wrong.

Be well. Keep us posted. You have a lot of people supporting you here


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## irnfit

Kodi had personality changes, mood swings and some trembling. It turned out to be his thyroid. Make sure they check that also. Hope you get answers and it is nothing serious.


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## Missy

Tammy, my heart is breaking. I know how hard this must be... The urinating does sound like a health issue. The other things could very well be thyroid too. But it also could be behavioral. You say your husband and children don't want anything to do with her anymore... This could be some sort of marking or territorial behavior. Cats have been know to pee "where you live" out of revenge... Dogs don't normally act that way... But have heard of havs being more catlike.

I think you need to rally your family. Poor Tillie has gone from being a beloved family pet to being ignored by everyone but you. And you, her rock, is stressed. The one thing I can say, is deal with this now! Even if there is a medical/physical issue...it has gone on long enough it could become a permanent behavior issue. I watched this happen to my hav-a-niece... Cute little puppy, young hav, everyone loved her... A few problems, including potty problems, and the busy family just ignored her...except my SIL... Who really didn't have enough time... problems got worse... She became aggressive to everyone but my SIL. 

Havanese are very sensitive dogs at best. Very impressionable and reactive. 

Please, please , please do not take this as critisism. Family dynamics are so hard, and around the holidays especially. But I just don't think you can do this (nor should you have to) without your family on board.

Perhaps this can become a life lesson for your kids... Maybe your DH could get behind that. What a great time of year talk about the value of a life. Commitment to taking care of a living thing through good and bad. And that pets aren't disposable. 

Just want to share my own sort of wake up to this. When we added Cash to our pack... I had severe post pupdom deprssession... Little puppy Cash, was terrorizing Jasper with his needle teeth. He was peeing everywhere... And making screeching noises like an orangoutang whenever we left the room. I wanted to send Cash back to the breeder. My DH listened to my whining for a few days and then told me very sternly(which he has never done before or since) "He is not a pair of shoes you can just return." I was silenced, and then mortified at myself. It really hit a chord with me. Cash is happily 6 and now my favorite (at least half the time.)

Good luck. Please keep us posted.


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## sandypaws

You've got to feel the love, Tammy. What a great, caring bunch on this forum. I'm proud to "know" everyone. Keep your chin up. I know you'll get to the bottom of this. Just keep us all posted. Hugs, again, from Tyler and me.


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## Lizzie'sMom

Missy said:


> Tammy, my heart is breaking. I know how hard this must be... The urinating does sound like a health issue. The other things could very well be thyroid too. But it also could be behavioral. You say your husband and children don't want anything to do with her anymore... This could be some sort of marking or territorial behavior. Cats have been know to pee "where you live" out of revenge... Dogs don't normally act that way... But have heard of havs being more catlike.
> 
> I think you need to rally your family.  Poor Tillie has gone from being a beloved family pet to being ignored by everyone but you. And you, her rock, is stressed. The one thing I can say, is deal with this now! Even if there is a medical/physical issue...it has gone on long enough it could become a permanent behavior issue. I watched this happen to my hav-a-niece... Cute little puppy, young hav, everyone loved her... A few problems, including potty problems, and the busy family just ignored her...except my SIL... Who really didn't have enough time... problems got worse... She became aggressive to everyone but my SIL.
> 
> Havanese are very sensitive dogs at best. Very impressionable and reactive.
> 
> Please, please , please do not take this as critisism. Family dynamics are so hard, and around the holidays especially. But I just don't think you can do this (nor should you have to) without your family on board.
> 
> Perhaps this can become a life lesson for your kids... Maybe your DH could get behind that. What a great time of year talk about the value of a life. Commitment to taking care of a living thing through good and bad. And that pets aren't disposable.
> 
> Just want to share my own sort of wake up to this. When we added Cash to our pack... I had severe post pupdom deprssession... Little puppy Cash, was terrorizing Jasper with his needle teeth. He was peeing everywhere... And making screeching noises like an orangoutang whenever we left the room. I wanted to send Cash back to the breeder. My DH listened to my whining for a few days and then told me very sternly(which he has never done before or since) "He is not a pair of shoes you can just return." I was silenced, and then mortified at myself. It really hit a chord with me. Cash is happily 6 and now my favorite (at least half the time.)
> 
> Good luck. Please keep us posted.


Nice post, Missy.


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## TilliesMom

thanks for all of your loving posts. not sure what I would do without your understanding, advice and encouragment!!
I have been with Tillie non stop the past few days, since her last 'accident'. She hasn't had anymore, BUT SHE 'found' an 'accident' last night. It was VERY interesting... 
My husband has been sleeping in the living room because he is sick and snoring, so he hasn't slept in bed for over a week. Anywho, last night at bedtime I really wanted to spend some 'normal' time with Tillie and since my husband was out I decided to let Tillie snuggle with me as we usually do at bedtime. She happily climbed all over me and then snuffled up under the covers on my husbands side. I lifted the blankets and was watching her very closely... well as she was snuffling and digging in the sheets, she all of a sudden started frantically sniffing and then FROZE. panic over took her face, she BOLTED out from under the covers and straight to her crate... huh? So, of course I investigated, I didn't feel or SEE anything unusual.. then I got down and sniffed. yup. at SOME point in the past week, she pee'd on our bed. It was completely dry, but unmistakable in the smell... comforter, right down to the mattress. 
On top of church, taking the kids Christmas shopping, cleaning, making cinnamon rolls, finishing some gifts, I had to take the comforter down to the laundromat to be washed. My husband actually tried to stop me from doing that. WHAT? like I WANT to be doing THIS, 2 days before Christmas???? ack. SO, of course I went to the laundromat. I explained to my husband that if we don't wash EVERYTHING, with bleach and get the smell out, she will have a 100% chance of this happeneing again, because she SMELLS her own pee and it signals her brain that THIS is where she should PEE. roar.
Anywho, the bedding is finally all clean, and I need to put it all together again.

Angie... I may take you up on that offer to see your vet. We'll see what her vet can do to help first, I'll keep you posted. thanks 

I will call Tillie's vet tomorrow.. not sure if they will be open, I know there is something wrong and somehow I will figure this out. We all miss Tillie.
I tried to take her for a walk tonight. epic.fail. She would barely walk at all. It wasn't very cold, maybe 50 degrees... she wouldn't walk, had her tail tucked under, whole nine yards.  
Does anyone know, it is common for thyroid issues to pop up anytime in their life?

My son is coming around and Tillie is very thankful, she has given him full on body wiggles several times today. It is very obvious that she misses being the center of our family... my daughter has never had a strong bond with Tillie, so I don't see Tillie missing her much, if that makes sense. To have my sons love and my devotion will hopefully get her through this... and all of you to help ME get through this.


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## Momo means Peach

Tammy, I have nothing to add, all the wise ones have done so. But, do know that I care and hope that the situation gets resolved.

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## lfung5

Tammy,
Tillie not wanting to walk makes me really think there is something going on. Has she ever not wanted to walk in the past? Fred loves his walks, but when he had his knee surgery, he refused to do long walks. He would stop and not budge. It was so unlike fred not wanting to walk. I had to do walks for therapy so it was a struggle. I thought he would never do a ful walk again! It took months before this behavior stopped. He was telling me, this hurts! 

I feel strongly something will show up in her blood work. Good luck today.


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## krandall

lfung5 said:


> Tammy,
> Tillie not wanting to walk makes me really think there is something going on. Has she ever not wanted to walk in the past? Fred loves his walks, but when he had his knee surgery, he refused to do long walks. He would stop and not budge. It was so unlike fred not wanting to walk. I had to do walks for therapy so it was a struggle. I thought he would never do a ful walk again! It took months before this behavior stopped. He was telling me, this hurts!
> 
> I feel strongly something will show up in her blood work. Good luck today.


I agree. And even if it doesn't show up in her blood work, SOMETHING is still physically wrong SOMEWHERE!


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## TilliesMom

krandall said:


> I agree. And even if it doesn't show up in her blood work, SOMETHING is still physically wrong SOMEWHERE!


yup. I KNOW!


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## Kathie

Was the vet's office open, Tammy?

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## TilliesMom

it's after 8am here, I called and was surprised that they are open!
Although it doesn't sound as if the vet is there today.
I told the receptionist what's been going on and now I am waiting for the vet to call.
Hoping they will give me antibiotics for now at least... based on her short history. sigh.


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## TilliesMom

Update!

Vet called me back and said that in his opinion and based on her history he thinks she may have a resistant infection or that the crystals are growing in number... 
He actually called in TWO prescriptions to the regular pharmacy for her!! Cipro and Keflex... does anyone have any experience with these meds? She'll be getting 2ml's twice a day for 14 days of the Keflex and 1/3 of a tablet of the Cipro for 14 days also.
AND the best part, both meds are only going to cost $20!! My husband can't argue in ANY way with THAT right?? 
Her vet wants to see her after the 14 days for another unrinalysis and I told him I wanted to a full blood work up at that point too, he agreed it was definitly needed, especially IF she is still having issues.
whew. relieved and thankful. We have a really good vet and I was hopeful that he would be able to help, even on Christmas eve. 
Thank you all .. I will surely keep you updated, love you all!! :whoo:


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## Milo's Mom

I get frequent UTI's and take CIPRO for them. It works perfectly and fast. Here's hoping it works for Tillie. So glad that your vet was so responsive on Christmas Eve. Happy holidays to you, your family, and, of course, Tillie.


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## emichel

Good luck, Tammy! I really hope that this med regimen works, and that Tillie is back to her old self in no time. You know, reading about your struggles w/Tillie brings to mind a tv show I like to watch, "Mystery Diagnosis", on Discovery Fit and Health. I don't know if you get that one, but anyway, it's about humans, but is relevant in that they are dealing with a constellation of symptoms that the doctors can't figure out. In the end they get it straightened out, but sometimes it takes a while. The point being... PERSISTENCE PAYS OFF! Wishing all the best to you and yours.
-- Eileen


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## sandypaws

Glad things are looking up Tammy. I hope you all enjoy Christmas, knowing that you are on the right tract with Tillie and that, at least, your son is coming around. . Merry Christmas and I hope you get the e-reader you want.


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## motherslittlehelper

Tammy, I am sooo glad to read that the vet called you back and that Tillie is getting treatment and that you and the vet have a plan to get to the bottom of this. I so hope that Tillie responds to this treatment. Hopefully, now you can relax a bit and enjoy your Christmas! Best wishes to you and your family, and to that sweet Tillie. May she soon be back to her sweet loving self!


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## HoneyBunny

Hi Tammy, I just read through your post and all the responses and want to reiterate that the people on this forum are so kind and caring..

I am so sorry with what you are going through and completely empathize with how you feel - but so glad your vet called in both prescriptions. These dogs do tremble when they are in pain (my Honey has been trembling a lot since her ACL surgery last week & it makes me feel so helpless), and accidents can happen if they are uncomfortable too..

If it is another UTI, then I am sure the antibiotics will help with it.. A few ppl mentioned white dog shaking syndrome - a friend of mine has a maltese who has it & has responded beautifully to treatment.

More than anything, please know that you are a good momma to Tillie and you have so many ppl to support you.

Take care, and keep us updated.


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## davetgabby

one day at a time, Tammy. Take her outside as much as possible. You want to remind her where she needs to go. , treat her like an eight week old pup. Merry Christmas.


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## krandall

TilliesMom said:


> Update!
> 
> Vet called me back and said that in his opinion and based on her history he thinks she may have a resistant infection or that the crystals are growing in number...
> He actually called in TWO prescriptions to the regular pharmacy for her!! Cipro and Keflex... does anyone have any experience with these meds? She'll be getting 2ml's twice a day for 14 days of the Keflex and 1/3 of a tablet of the Cipro for 14 days also.
> AND the best part, both meds are only going to cost $20!! My husband can't argue in ANY way with THAT right??
> Her vet wants to see her after the 14 days for another unrinalysis and I told him I wanted to a full blood work up at that point too, he agreed it was definitly needed, especially IF she is still having issues.
> whew. relieved and thankful. We have a really good vet and I was hopeful that he would be able to help, even on Christmas eve.
> Thank you all .. I will surely keep you updated, love you all!! :whoo:


That is great news, Tammy! And what a relief to be able to get something started even now, before Christmas! I agree with Joyce, I used to get frequent, severe and persistent UTI's, and if they weren't caught (and stopped early enough) would back up into my kidneys. At that time, Cipro was considered a drug of last resort, because they saved it for those who were severely imuno-compromised, like those with end-stage AIDS. But they tried so many other things that they finally tried me on the Cipro, and it worked immediately. It's also one of the few antibiotics that reaches the same blood levels quickly, whether administered by IV or orally. So it gets into the system fast. Now there are newer drugs for antibiotic-resistant infections and imuno-compromised people, so Cipro is used more often in less critical applications.

Also remember how long Robbie's boy was sick with his UTI, and the strange symptoms... He had trouble pooping, seemed to have a sore back, and I think other symptoms as well.

Anyway, I hope it helps her FAST and you have a new doggy again before long!


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## TilliesMom

thanks everyone!

Yes, Dave, as soon as the accident happened the x-pen was back up. I am taking her out every hour, sometimes she asks to go more often, sometimes she'll go a few hours. Another odd thing is that she isn't drinking. at all. from her water dish. This started a few weeks ago. I have been adding 1/4 cup of water to her meals just to keep her hydrated... 
So, ya. Antibiotics started, gates up. She isn't even allowed down the hall toward the bedrooms unless it is time for HER to go to bed (in her crate as always). We have a plan ... Her trembling isn't all the time, so I'm thinking that's good. Although I DID notice her trembling more in the morning and this morning for the first time I saw her trembling while she was trying to pee. And she pee's forever... At first I kept thinking, WOW, Till, that was a BIG pee .. now I realize when you have a UTI it hurts and you push and push thinking you need to pee but barely any dribbles out ... I think that is what's going on. She is alseep at the foot of my recliner, passed out blissfully, no trembling.


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## krandall

TilliesMom said:


> thanks everyone!
> 
> Yes, Dave, as soon as the accident happened the x-pen was back up. I am taking her out every hour, sometimes she asks to go more often, sometimes she'll go a few hours. Another odd thing is that she isn't drinking. at all. from her water dish. This started a few weeks ago. I have been adding 1/4 cup of water to her meals just to keep her hydrated...


Tammy, if she's not drinking, make sure you check her gums regularly. If they start to look dark, are dry or tacky, or don't change quickly from white back to a healthy pink if you press on them, it is a sign she is getting really dehydrated, and needs IV or sub-cu fluids. This is especially important for you to watch for over the next day or so, before you can get her to the regular vet. If she becomes dehydrated, it is a medical emergency.

Here's a good article on what to watch for.

http://www.the-happy-dog-spot.com/dehydration-in-dogs.html


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## TilliesMom

yes, thanks for that Karen! I am checking her gums frequently. I tried to do the 
"pinch the nape of her neck and see if the skin flattens or tents" thing... but all I could do was grab hair! ha ha and then when I DID get her neck I couldn't SEE what it was doing cause of all the hair! fur ball. lol
Got the meds, giving her her first dose in a bit ... does anyone know if it's okay to give the Keflex AND the cipro near the same time? She needs 1 of them twice a day and one of them only once a day. 
It is such an enormous blessing that I work at a school and will be able to be with her 24/7 over the next 2 1/2 weeks.


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## HalleBerry

Yes, you can give them at the same time - keflex WILL upset her stomach, so try to give them after she eats, ok? Fingers & toes crossed this will help her!!!


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## HoneyBunny

Tammy - TOTALLY agree with you about having off for the few weeks - I'm a teacher and purposely selected last Monday for the surgery so I could take a few personal days and then have this vacation.

And I agree with the post above with the meds, you can take them both at once.

Take care!


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## Kathie

I'm so glad you got some medicine for Tillie! Sounds like you've got a great vet. We will all be anxiously waiting and praying the meds work and you will have your sweet happy girl back again!

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## TilliesMom

thanks :grouphug:


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## whimsy

Hope things go well for Tillie...I have been thinking about her and feeling so bad for you both! Glad you are on the right track now!!! Keep us posted!


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## TilliesMom

Kathie said:


> I'm so glad you got some medicine for Tillie! Sounds like you've got a great vet. We will all be anxiously waiting and praying the meds work and you will have your sweet happy girl back again!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


thanks! ya, I do believe he is the best vet in town. He looks at the whole picture, the whole animal and is the one who started me home cooking, so he fully supports my desicion regarding her diet. I know some vets probably wouldn't... 
Although his name is Dr. Weiner. ound: seriously, I just can't say his name without giggling like a 6th grade boy. ha ha ound:


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## Murphysmom2011

Glad to hear you got some medicine for Tillie. I hope she starts feeling like her old self soon.

Have a Merry Christmas!
Diane and Murphy


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## TilliesMom

thanks so much Diane!
I hope you and Murphy have a great Christmas!


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## Momo means Peach

Get well soon, Tillie! We're all worried about you.


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## rokipiki

Dear Tammy and Tillie! We are both with you praying that all goes well! Sh is definitely stressed out and maybe sad because she can feel that a part of family is rejecting her. They are all so sensible and can feel when something is wrong in their home. So try to separate her from all tension and atmosfere theta is not so good for her. She will heal better. Strengthening her immunity system is another thing to think about. With Roki I learned that working on his immunity gave excellent results. He had that nasty skin infection, but now everything is stable and he came out of the dark tunnel. I really know what it means when your baby is sick and not himself. It takes a lot of patience and hard work to bring them back, but it is worth. I have another tought about beef you are feeding her. It is kind of strong protein and usually with all UTI vets here recomend lighter proteins or special vet diets for urinary problems. Maybe you should e-mail Sabine and check what she has to say about the whole case. 
I really pray for you and your family because I had quite simmilar experience in my life.


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## Suzi

I'm so glad you got some more medication and am crossing my fingers that she is going to be better soon. The new year is going to be better I'm just sure! Thanks for reaching out Tammie it made me feel good and proved to me even more who great this forum is.


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## mmphelps

I've been thinking about u for the last couple of days. Even though we've never met outside this forum, you are on my mind. I'm so glad to hear that you have good meds for Tillie and will proceed with full blood panel. UTIs/crystals/stones are painful and sometimes vexing but I really believe it can be cured and prevented with diet. Please let us know as Tillie feels better and returns to her happy self. Hope you are having a peaceful Christmas.

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## Grindstone50

Great start to healing Tammy & Tilli!! So happy for all of you. Merry Christmas!


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## Missy

Great Vet. I hope you are all having a nice Christmas.


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## TilliesMom

thanks everyone! 
Tillie had a fantastic day here at home with extended family coming to US for once! yay!!
She was in HEAVEN surrounded by TONS of wrapping paper, we all wadded up and threw on the floor specially for her. THAT was her Christmas present! lol She loved every second! My mom who was visiting last week as well actually noticed a difference already in her behavior and that she was acting puppy-like again... 
I am hopeful that she is feeling better. I do know I will need to slowly start getting her out and re-socializing her since she has been pretty coop'd up the past few months because everything seemed to stress her out... little bits at a time... thank you all for the prayers.


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## whimsy

Tammy..I'm sure having Tillie perk up and have fun was the best Christmas present of all!


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## Sheri

You and Tillie have been on my mind, and I'm SO glad to hear she is feeling better! Don't let up on following through... if this was all caused by an ongoing UTI (or something else requiring antibiotics,) for so long it will probably take awhile to totally clear up so that it doesn't recur/build before being knocked all the way out.

:whoo:


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## Tia

Good luck with thing. Hope you see some improvement soon.

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## HavaneseSoon

Thinking of you and Tillie always! :hug: It sounds like Tillie is on the road to recovery. How is her walking and peeing discomfort?


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## angiern2004

How is Tillie today?


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## Suzi

Waiting to find out if the medication is working? what did you vet say about the shaking? Is it related?


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## TilliesMom

Well, last night at bedtime, my husband was 'putting Tillie to bed' down at her crate talking to her and petting her when he discovered HER bed was wet! I am so very confused... since I am home all day, every day right now she only goes in her crate at night. She has NEVER wet her crate before. EVER. ?? What the heck is going on???

We aren't sure what is causing the trembling, she still does it, mainly in the mornings... I am just so lost and confused, fearing I may never get my sweet Tillie back. 
As for the walking, it has been raining so much we haven't gone for a walk since Christmas Eve ...
so frustrated and dumbfounded.


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## Suzi

TilliesMom said:


> Well, last night at bedtime, my husband was 'putting Tillie to bed' down at her crate talking to her and petting her when he discovered HER bed was wet! I am so very confused... since I am home all day, every day right now she only goes in her crate at night. She has NEVER wet her crate before. EVER. ?? What the heck is going on???
> 
> We aren't sure what is causing the trembling, she still does it, mainly in the mornings... I am just so lost and confused, fearing I may never get my sweet Tillie back.
> As for the walking, it has been raining so much we haven't gone for a walk since Christmas Eve ...
> so frustrated and dumbfounded.


 In an earlier post someone talked about the shaking. That could be your ticket to all the blood work and stuff and be covered under your insurance. I bet the accident was related to the UTI. It is odd she picked her bed I guess its better than your bed. I'm hoping the medications will work. Did you consider not so much Hamburger? or did you say your vet thought its not food related?


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## HalleBerry

Even if you don't want to run the tests, I'd ask your vet about either thyroid disease or Addisons disease and see what they think of the combined symptoms of muscle tremors, behavior change, and frequent urination.


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## motherslittlehelper

Tammy, is the door to her crate closed at night? Augie is being treated for a UTI right now as well. Not being able to hold it all night was my first indication that there was a problem. This is his second UTI, and finding wet spots on the throw rug in front of the front door, I knew something was wrong as he has always been so reliable after about a year or so of age. But with the UTI, he just can't hold it all night. I have been sleeping on the couch - I am a light sleeper - and he will come to me and paw at me when he has to go out. It has been about 3 a.m. This morning it was 4:30, so I am hoping he will slowly recover here and can last all night again. My guys don't have access to bedrooms. Finn is still a work in progress; I had to start taking him out frequently a couple months back, and treat and praise him, and (knock on wood) he is doing pretty well again. Augie is not locked in his crate at night. His crate is located in the living room, and there is also another little bed in the living room, or he sleep for awhile in a chair. Seldom does he sleep in the same spot all night. Thank goodness he didn't choose a corner on carpeting for his accidents. For whatever reason, he chose the throw rug, on tile, in front of the front door. Maybe because it is similar in shape and color to the UgoDog that he was trained on.


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## Milo's Mom

It can take awhile for a UTI to clear up I would wait a little longer for the medication to work. It can also take time to find the best antibiotic. I can also say from personal experience that a UTI can be very painful - that could account for the shaking. Just some ideas to consider.


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## motherslittlehelper

I agree with Joyce. I had a UTI once or twice. It felt like my insides were turning inside out when I had to go. I was surprised that Augie didn't seem to show pain. 

I forgot to mention that Augie had to go way more often than the 3 a.m. time I mentioned taking him out for. The boys' usual times at night are 10 p.m. and 6 a.m. I was taking Augie at 10 p.m., 12 a.m., 3 a.m. and 6 a.m., and during the day he was looking at me to go out every 1.5 to 2 hours. We went to the vet exactly a week ago, and it is just in the last couple of days that I see the times lengthening between going out.


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## TilliesMom

interesting... okay, I will wait awhile more before panicing TOO much.
I am already planning on doing a full blood work up looking at thyroid function and everything else everyone has mentioned... sigh.


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## HalleBerry

I'm just worried.... it wasn't that long ago that you were looking at doing therapy work with Tillie - and now she has changed so much.


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## krandall

TilliesMom said:


> Well, last night at bedtime, my husband was 'putting Tillie to bed' down at her crate talking to her and petting her when he discovered HER bed was wet! I am so very confused... since I am home all day, every day right now she only goes in her crate at night. She has NEVER wet her crate before. EVER. ?? What the heck is going on???
> 
> We aren't sure what is causing the trembling, she still does it, mainly in the mornings... I am just so lost and confused, fearing I may never get my sweet Tillie back.
> As for the walking, it has been raining so much we haven't gone for a walk since Christmas Eve ...
> so frustrated and dumbfounded.


I would say that if she is wetting her crate, which she has NEVER done before, it is a pretty sure sign that she is VERY uncomfortable. For now, I'd just give her old towels for bedding, so that you can easily change and launder them if she wets during the night again. I wouldn't say ANYTHING to her about it. I suspect she hates wetting her bed.

I don't think it's that surprising that the meds haven't completely solved the problem yet. If she has crystals, I think it takes a while for those to dissolve again.


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## TilliesMom

HalleBerry said:


> I'm just worried.... it wasn't that long ago that you were looking at doing therapy work with Tillie - and now she has changed so much.


yes. breaks my heart in so many ways.
The other day the kids and I were in Barnes and Noble and the therapy group I was looking into joining was there doing Christmas wrapping as a fund raiser, with thier dogs and I had the horrible realization that at this point it will never happen for us. Those dogs were so calm and confident and Tillie has deteriorated so much in the past 2 months she rarely leaves the house anymore because it stresses her SO much. breaks me heart. and I can't imagine she's very happy either.


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## TilliesMom

krandall said:


> I would say that if she is wetting her crate, which she has NEVER done before, it is a pretty sure sign that she is VERY uncomfortable. For now, I'd just give her old towels for bedding, so that you can easily change and launder them if she wets during the night again. I wouldn't say ANYTHING to her about it. I suspect she hates wetting her bed.
> 
> I don't think it's that surprising that the meds haven't completely solved the problem yet. If she has crystals, I think it takes a while for those to dissolve again.


okay, I will just keep hoping and praying that the meds are able to help her... the fact that she isn't drinking really upsets me also. I am now adding so much water to her meals she is basically drinking them. sigh.

The vet did mention something about incontinence being a possiblilty, especially if these "accidents" occur where she sleeps. (i.e. her crate. our beds?) and it is a HUGE amount of pee when is does happen, not little spots more typically of uti's. Something else we will be looking into. I remembered about it after my husband found her crate soaked last night...


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## motherslittlehelper

Tammy, Tillie is still a young dog. I guess I would be very surprised if what is going on is incontinence, although I know it is not unheard of. Augie's peeing on the rug has not been 'small amounts'. Try not to stress over her accidents and let the antibiotics have a chance to work, get her in for a recheck and further testing and go from there. It is my feeling that Tillie can't have gone from the happy dog you have described in the not too distant past, to the dog she is now without it being a medical issue/illness. Just as with humans, I am sure there is a huge variance with the way dogs may react to illness as well as different thresholds of pain. And she is no doubt frightened and doesn't understand why she doesn't feel right and is confused as to why the attitude of some members of her family have changed toward her. Augie doesn't seem to get nasty or aggressive or shake or show any signs of pain - he sort of gets quiet and lays around. Tillie must be getting some fluids from the liquid you are adding to her meals, but if you are concerned she isn't getting enough, the vet can inject fluid under her skin on her back. That is what our vet did with Augie the first time he got UTI and the crystals. And, like I mentioned in a previous post, if she is locked in a crate at night, and has to potty, of course she is going to pee in her sleeping area, whether she wants to or not.

My heart goes out to you, Tammy. I am so sorry you are having this worry over Tillie and hope that she is SOON on the mend.


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## TilliesMom

Thank you Linda! so glad I am not going through this alone!!

Well, the sun is out here and the kids and I went for a walk with Tillie. I brought treats to encourage her along ... she did great!!! She was looking up at me eyes shining, smiling and trotting along like the sweet girl I know she is. Seriously, I almost cried several times. I never wanted the walk to end. Although I didn't want to push her. We walked for about 20-30 minutes and she loved every second!!! I feel like this was the encouragement we BOTH needed that she IS still in there that she WANTS to be herself again and is trying so hard. The kids were overjoyed to have thier 'old Tillie' back ... she even had the "Zoomies" when we got home!! I'm welling up just remembering her on our walk, looking up at me, hair blowing in the breeze, smiling. 
I've missed that smile so much.

I have hope that we are on the right track. And I AM going to be doing all of the bloodwork and another urinalysis/culture once this 2 week round of antibiotics is done.
thanks for always being here for me. and Tillie. :grouphug:


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## davetgabby

hang tough Tammy, patience is indeed a virtue.


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## HalleBerry

Oh, I'm so glad you ALL had a good time - that's wonderful news!


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## krandall

motherslittlehelper said:


> It is my feeling that Tillie can't have gone from the happy dog you have described in the not too distant past, to the dog she is now without it being a medical issue/illness. Just as with humans, I am sure there is a huge variance with the way dogs may react to illness as well as different thresholds of pain.


I agree. This has just come on too suddenly, and is affecting her in too many different ways for me to believe there isn't a physical basis to it. But it may take patience, time, and some sleuth work to figure out exactly what's going on.



motherslittlehelper said:


> Tillie must be getting some fluids from the liquid you are adding to her meals, but if you are concerned she isn't getting enough, the vet can inject fluid under her skin on her back. That is what our vet did with Augie the first time he got UTI and the crystals.


If she needs it often enough, the vet can even set you up with the fluids and needles to do it yourself... it's not hard. We had VERY elderly cat who needed fluids regularly through her last 18 months of life. We just gave them to her at home every evening. She didn't even mind the needle.


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## krandall

TilliesMom said:


> Thank you Linda! so glad I am not going through this alone!!
> 
> Well, the sun is out here and the kids and I went for a walk with Tillie. I brought treats to encourage her along ... she did great!!! She was looking up at me eyes shining, smiling and trotting along like the sweet girl I know she is. Seriously, I almost cried several times. I never wanted the walk to end. Although I didn't want to push her. We walked for about 20-30 minutes and she loved every second!!! I feel like this was the encouragement we BOTH needed that she IS still in there that she WANTS to be herself again and is trying so hard. The kids were overjoyed to have thier 'old Tillie' back ... she even had the "Zoomies" when we got home!! I'm welling up just remembering her on our walk, looking up at me, hair blowing in the breeze, smiling.
> I've missed that smile so much.
> 
> I have hope that we are on the right track. And I AM going to be doing all of the bloodwork and another urinalysis/culture once this 2 week round of antibiotics is done.
> thanks for always being here for me. and Tillie. :grouphug:


That's great, Tammy! Also try VERY hard to stay calm about the situation yourself. Just like kids (or even moreso), dogs pick up on their own owners being worried and upset. If YOU appear calm and confident, it will be easier for her, and you'll find that by WORKING on the "calm, confident demeanor", you will start FEELING less upset about the situation too. Think of it as a puzzle to be worked out methodically, but where you KNOW there IS an answer. Not some scary, mysterious, insurmountable problem.

BTW, even if you were to find that she she is incontinent, there are good drugs that can be used to help control it, or in a worst case scenario, you learn to manage it.

There is a woman who competes in Rally around here who has a Corgi who is paralyzed from the middle of his back on. He has no movement in his hind legs, not can he eliminate on his own. Now THAT might seem like an insurmountable problem, but not for them! The dog has been like this for 5 years. He has a cart, and happily trundles along with that, even playing in the yard with her other Corgis. She has to "express" him into a diaper several times a day, but they've figured it out and it works for them! As I said, he even compete in APDT Rally, where a dog can have exercise modifications for disabilities. Obviously, he can't jump with the cart, so he goes through the standards, where the jump would be instead. Everything else, he does amazingly well, considering that he has to figure out how to get the cart into position as well as his body!

I guess my point is that if this lady was able to figure out how to deal with this really devastating injury, I have complete faith that, in time and with patience, you'll figure out what's going on with Tillie and have your wonderful, happy companion back, one way or another!:hug:


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## TilliesMom

Thanks Karen! Patience is hard for me, not a virtue I have been given in abundance, let's say that. ound: Having everyone behind me here on the forum and the glimpse of my smiling girl today has me more determined than ever to get her back. and I will. somehow. someway. some day. My gut tells me she will be okay soon. she HAS to be.


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## lfung5

That's it Tammy...positive thinking I am sorry to read about Tillie's setback. I hope things turn around for the best soon.


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## whimsy

keep the faith!


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## angiern2004

TilliesMom said:


> Thanks Karen! Patience is hard for me, not a virtue I have been given in abundance, let's say that. ound: Having everyone behind me here on the forum and the glimpse of my smiling girl today has me more determined than ever to get her back. and I will. somehow. someway. some day. My gut tells me she will be okay soon. she HAS to be.


This!


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## lfung5

I must have missed a post. Glad to hear it seems she is coming around! So happy to hear she enjoyed her walk!!


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## Missy

Just checking in on you and Tillie today. I hope the smiling walk and new abx are doing wonders and continues.


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## TilliesMom

thanks for checking in with us!! 
no new found accidents, so that's good. Her trembling seems to be getting less and less. She only seems to do it first thing in the morning.
I do need to take my son to a Dr's appt this morning, it will be the first time I have left Tillie in nearly a week... a tad nervous about that...


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## motherslittlehelper

I hope Tillie just keeps improving, Tammy. Last night was our best night with Augie. He went from 10 pm to 5:30 am without having to go out. The vet had given him a long-acting shot Thurs before Christmas. I did not see any improvement for about three days, except in his behavior. He seemed a little more spunky. Then the times between having to go out to potty started lengthening, and he is almost back to normal now, a week later, with most of the improvement in the past couple of days. I hope Tillie will do the same! And I hope she does well while you have to be gone this morning.


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## ivyagogo

I haven't been on the board much lately and am sorry to hear you are having trouble with Tillie. Gryff gets the shakes too. I call them the shakies. The vet was very blase about it and just said that it happens with small white dogs sometimes. It's not too much of an issue with us, but I have heard of people having great success with those vests.


I'm glad you and Tillie had a nice afternoon. Hopefully there will be many more of them.


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## TilliesMom

we were gone for about 2 hrs this morning (Tillie was in her crate with her Kong) and was peacefully sleeping as always when we got home. My daughter let her out right away and I took her outside to go potty. She pee'd right away and seems to be doing well today.
We have the hallway blocked off indefinitly due to her frequent (to us!) accidents ...
We are all starting to see glimpses of her sweet self!! Come Monday it will have been a week on the 2 antibiotics... 
I do worry about when school starts up and the busy-ness picks up again... I can't help but worry. I'm a mom. It's what I DO.:sorry:


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## whimsy

so happy to hear that she is coming around!! Don't blame you one little bit for worrying...I would be the same way.


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## Murphysmom2011

I am glad to hear that Tillie is feeling better. It sounds like the antibiotics are working for her. Definitely have her checked after you finish this round of medicine. Sometimes if they have crystals it takes awhile for them to go away.

Have a wonderful weekend!

Diane and Murphy


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## Pixiesmom

We hope Tillie makes a complete recovery! I fully believe she'll be back to her adorable self. Mig and Pixie send lickies until then.


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## TilliesMom

thanks for the encouraging words, hugs and licks! 

Hoping to take her for another walk today... we'll see how it goes!


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## lfung5

Glad to hear she is doing so well. I do hope it continues. I know how much this means to all of us that Tillie gets better. We are all rooting for her:whoo:


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## TilliesMom

thanks so much Linda. 
so thankful for this forum and for friends who understand how important Tillie is to our family.


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## sandypaws

Sounds like things are getting a bit better with Tillie and I can tell you are happier and a bit relieved as you are back to posting on the threads, Tammy. I'm so happy for all of you, especially Tillie. Keep your chin up. She'll get there!


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## TilliesMom

thanks! yes, we are all getting more postive by the day!

Today everyone wanted to go to the snow. I don't feel Tillie is ready for that yet, OR to be left at home alone for that long. And she TOLD us so, by repeatedly jumping in the van as they were getting ready to go! ound: Like oh HECK no, you are NOT leaving me behind!!  I had to PROVE to her that *I* wasn't going by sitting in my recliner while they all got ready and packed up! After my husband and kids left I decided to surprise Tillie by taking HER 'bye-bye'!! She was SOOOOOO excited, yipping, thrashing her toys around, hopping all over. THAT's my girl!! Man, I have missed her.
Anywho, we just went uptown to make some returns to a couple stores where she rode happily in her stroller occasionally getting loves from some stranger that just couldn't resist her.  It was so wonderful to spend one on one time with her again. It's probably been nearly 2 months since we have gone shopping together... she just wasn't herself and I didn't want to push her.
I know we have a long way to go, along with lots of medical testing, but I have definitly seen her turn a major corner in the past couple of days and am SO very glad I listened to my gut (which is ALWAYS right) and not to my husband. ound:


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## krandall

That is FANTASTIC, Tammy!!! Just be aware that from what I've been told, you can have a UTI AND crystals at the same time. The antibiotics will clear up the infection, but if you don't get to the root cause of the crystals, the problem will keep coming back. So don't let up on getting to the bottom of thing!!!

Glad to hear she is feeling so much better, though!!!


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## lfung5

Sounds like Tillie has made some huge steps!

It's not just your gut Tammy. You know her better than anyone. You saw such a change in her personality and never second guessed yourself! Bravo for being a great mom!!


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## Sheri

Tammy, I'm so glad to read your latest post! Yes!!


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## Pixiesmom

Yay Tillie-see, the girl just wanted to go shopping!!


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## whimsy

Glad to hear it!!! So happy for you and Tillie!!


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## TilliesMom

lol, thanks everyone!
YES, no worries, we will surely be getting to the bottom of this. Her vet wanted to see her for more testing after the 2 weeks of the antibiotics.

lol, ya, she is feeling SO much better, while typing this post, she has stolen 2 polly pockets from under the Christmas tree and is now shredding a paper towel she thinks she sneakily snatched from me. (I let her have it. lol) 

I have a sinking feeling we may need to change her diet. everything that I've read says that that is how/where the crystals form, because of a high protien diet... although BOTH her vet AND Sabine say NO, this is not what is happeneing...?

Anywho, thanks for always being there for us, crisis or celebration. Love you guys


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## Beau's mom

Tammy - my last dog (sheltie) lived many years on _Royal Canin S/I_ canned dog food after they found crystals in her urine. They've probably advanced beyond that by now, as that was many years ago. But, want you to know you're in my thoughts and prayers -- Tillie is special. Onward and upward in 2013!!


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## TilliesMom

thanks so much Lorraine!


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## mmphelps

Tino had crystals in his urine shortly after we got him. I knew something was wrong--I saw a change in his behavior and I knew something was up. I know you know how worried I was--I second guessed everything and worried that it was something worse than it turned out to be. I worried that the behavior would persist after the cause of the problem was cleared up. But nope, as soon as he physically felt better he returned to himself and we picked up house training where we left off. He has done great ever since. Not crazy about feeding him Hill's food, but that's short term. Thinking I will need to get a urinalysis to make sure the crystals are cleared before adjusting his diet to a better quality food.

Anyway, all this is to say that I'm so glad tillie is feeling better and returning to herself! That is the best news!

Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## HalleBerry

Glad to hear she's continuing to feel better!!!!


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## StarrLhasa

I guess I have been away from the Forum for longer than I thought. I just read this whole thread and am glad I found out Tillie is responding to the antibiotics.

About the morning shaking, besides the pain and possible White Shaker Dog Syndrome as possibilities, is it possible that Tillie feels a little chilled after coming from her nice warm bed to the morning air?

My dogs are in full coat and have not needed anything extra this winter (except when it's raining), but when they had puppy cuts they wore sweaters or jackets outside which stopped them from shivering.

Our two fosters (Blueberry and Layla) have really short hair, so I have been dressing them up in jackets or sweaters when going outside, and they seem much less reluctant to walk outside than on days when they didn't wear them. Just a thought....

Happy New Year, Tammy!

Photos below: Blueberry as a Reindeer, Layla and Blue sharing a doggie bed, Blueberry standing with Buffy in our yard, and Blue (facing left), Buffy, and Buster (facing away) in their rain gear.


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## pjewel

I had the same reaction as Starr. The only good thing about coming to a thread like this late is you get to worry just a little bit less when things look like they're improving. I'm sending love and hugs your (and Tillie's) way. I hope the treatment is successful long term and that you get your sweet angel back again.


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## lfung5

How is Tillie anyway?


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## TilliesMom

Tillie is doing okay. She came with us to a friends house New Years Eve and was a trembling wreck.  She has always come with us and never had an issue before...?
I had brought her crate and put her in a few times for just a little bit (maybe 5-10 minutes) as I was sitting RIGHT next to her crate.
Well, when we were packing up to leave my husband discovered she had pee'd in her crate, on her bed! I brought her with us so we could (and did) take her out at least every hour or so... so now I am begining to think that peeing in not okay places is stress related? ... sigh.

She has 4 more days left on her antibiotics, then I need to make the follow up appt.


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## marlowe'sgirl

Definitely do the follow-up appt. If she's still peeing in her crate, she might need different antibiotics or the crystals haven't resolved yet.


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## TilliesMom

for sure! She's done it twice now.


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## heatherk

Aww - coming to this late, but I really feel for you and for Tillie. You two are really special to me and I'm sad that she is not herself. I hope that she (and you) feel better soon. ((hugs))


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## lfung5

Oh, my heart breaks for you and Tillie. I hope you get to the bottom of this! XOXO Tammy.


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## rokipiki

Tammy, I use peppermint essential oil a lot for Roki. It helped him to completely cure car sickness. It is safe for dogs and it calms them down, it is good for anxiety and stress. You need good quality peppermint essential oil. Put a drop or two on cotton ball an put it in Tillie's crate when you feel she will be under stress. Some aromatherapist for dogs even rub diluted peppermint into paw pads. Dilution ratio is 10 drops odf carrier oil (almond, jojoba...) and one drop of peppermint. It really works. I also put in his grooming spray mixture because it is the most powerfull natural insecticide for fleas and ticks and it calms him so much that he falls asleep while brushing. 
She would definitely benefit from Cher4Life Transfer Factor canine formula. It is not so expensive (around $40 for three months) and works miracles on immunity. It will strengthen her body so that it could fight better with that UTI. Roki was on it for six months. Wonderful results! Good natural vitamins/minerals coud help a lot too! 
Roki was so fearful (running away from bigger dogs, shaking and drolling in car) when he was sick (yeast infection and pyodermatis) and now I can see HUGE improvement. Here is the link

http://www.cher4life.com/Products/Animal-Health.html


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## lkwilson

Hey Tammy, what an ordeal. Glad things seem to be getting better, I hope you get answers soon. Too sad to think of sweet Tillie unhappy.


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## Missy

Tammy, I am glad you are following up with the vet. I am so sorry you are still dealing with this. I think you should also review behavior...both Tillie's and your families. 

Both my boys went through, sort of a "fear stage" somewhere around 2 years old (a year apart as they are 6 and 7 years old now) I found nothing in the books or on here about a 2 year old fear stage, and my boys are as different as different can be, but both of them around 2 years old started to hesitate to do things they had always enjoyed. like going out back for Jasper, and walking around the neighborhood for Cash. Cash had some potty issues at this time as well, Jasper sank into what could only be described as a deep depression. After Vets (and forums) were consulted... we just buckled down and started re-potty training for Cash and re-socializing for them both. We spent more one on one time with each of them. Bringing them out and giving them more confidence. Since Jasper's happened first we knew what to do when it happened to Cash. We sort of figured out what set Jasper off, but never did figure out what frightened Cash. But they both came around within a few months of us re-working with them. 

I have two thoughts as to why this happened in our house...one, at two, they are just so much more aware of everything, they are totally invested in "the pack" and that awareness and dependence can spark fear behavior...of change, or danger to the pack. and two, at the same time, the human pack is venturing out more and more now than puppyhood is over... the dogs spend more time alone...fewer walks(cause they can hold it)... less play time...we're all adults now!

It is exhausting, at 2 or 3 years old, cause you think the hard work is done and that you just get to enjoy them. But I have heard it said here that Havanese are soft dogs... they are very sensitive, and intuitive (even if their intuitiion is wrong) and a new pattern can be set off by the silliest thing or maybe a real thing. 

are you overworked? are your kids out of the house more? is your husband stressed? 
is Tillie being treated like the "family pet" last in line, when she used to be first? 

I'm not saying Tillie should be first... but if you can figure out what has changed in her eyes maybe you can help her understand that it is ok...

I'm also not saying that a medical issue has nothing to do with it, but the more time that goes by the more I think there may be a temprement issue as well. And re-focusing on training and behavior can certainly do no harm.


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## krandall

Missy said:


> Tammy, I am glad you are following up with the vet. I am so sorry you are still dealing with this. I think you should also review behavior...both Tillie's and your families.
> 
> Both my boys went through, sort of a "fear stage" somewhere around 2 years old (a year apart as they are 6 and 7 years old now) I found nothing in the books or on here about a 2 year old fear stage, and my boys are as different as different can be, but both of them around 2 years old started to hesitate to do things they had always enjoyed. like going out back for Jasper, and walking around the neighborhood for Cash. Cash had some potty issues at this time as well, Jasper sank into what could only be described as a deep depression. After Vets (and forums) were consulted... we just buckled down and started re-potty training for Cash and re-socializing for them both. We spent more one on one time with each of them. Bringing them out and giving them more confidence. Since Jasper's happened first we knew what to do when it happened to Cash. We sort of figured out what set Jasper off, but never did figure out what frightened Cash. But they both came around within a few months of us re-working with them.
> 
> I have two thoughts as to why this happened in our house...one, at two, they are just so much more aware of everything, they are totally invested in "the pack" and that awareness and dependence can spark fear behavior...of change, or danger to the pack. and two, at the same time, the human pack is venturing out more and more now than puppyhood is over... the dogs spend more time alone...fewer walks(cause they can hold it)... less play time...we're all adults now!
> 
> It is exhausting, at 2 or 3 years old, cause you think the hard work is done and that you just get to enjoy them. But I have heard it said here that Havanese are soft dogs... they are very sensitive, and intuitive (even if their intuitiion is wrong) and a new pattern can be set off by the silliest thing or maybe a real thing.
> 
> are you overworked? are your kids out of the house more? is your husband stressed?
> is Tillie being treated like the "family pet" last in line, when she used to be first?
> 
> I'm not saying Tillie should be first... but if you can figure out what has changed in her eyes maybe you can help her understand that it is ok...
> 
> I'm also not saying that a medical issue has nothing to do with it, but the more time that goes by the more I think there may be a temprement issue as well. And re-focusing on training and behavior can certainly do no harm.


Here's something a friend of mine shared on FB earlier today, that goes along exactly with what you are saying, Missy! This is specifically addressing fear issues that can turn to aggression later, but I'm sure it includes ALL kinds of fear issues, and maturity in general. So many people think their "puppy" is all grown up when their body stops growing at about a year. But they have s-o-o-o much farther to go in terms of mental maturity.

"Reisner Veterinary Behavior & Consulting Services

Tuesday

Tuesday's Pearl: A dog's' brain matures more slowly than his body, and may not be "grown up" until 3 or 4 years of age. This is especially important when a puppy or young adult is fearful, because mature dogs are more likely to show their fear through aggression. If your young dog is skittish with strangers or especially sensitive to an older household dog, monitor and intervene sooner rather than later."


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## Missy

Karen, that is so much shorter and eloquent!


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## TilliesMom

yes! thank you for your advice and encouragment!

After Christmas, I did realize that because of everything that has been going on I haven't been taking her anywhere, not even on walks because she would refuse to walk! So, yes, she was being left behind more and more over the past few months. Once I "woke up" and realized this we have all been working harder to include her in as much as we can. So much so that when we went to Costco the other night the kids were confused why Tillie wasn't coming with us. lol
I have been taking her with me to run errands and have discovered that as long as I keep the car under 40 mph she doesn't tremble or stress in the car. She is getting out of the house and being around people again, which she loves and I love having her with me. She HAD become 'just a dog' in the hustle and bustle of our crazy busy lives. 
In fact I have said, more than once in the past few months that IF our lives would have been THIS busy and crazy 2-3 yrs ago, we probably never would have gotten a dog. Sad, yet true.  I go back to work, kids go back to school on Tuesday and making time for Tillie will again be a struggle. But I am hopeful that I will at least be able to return to bring her with me to pick the kids up from school, which was ALWAYS a HUGE highlight of her day, but I had to stop doing because of her recent trembling and fear of the car... anywho. I need to call the vet on Monday and see when I can bring her in for a follow up and full blood work. BECAUSE I have also noticed she is getting chunky!! Her diet is and always has been the same... I am hoping it's just cause she hasn't had as much excerise as she has in the warmer months... anywho, so thankful to have all of you to talk with through all of this!


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## Missy

Tammy, you're such a good mom and fur mom. I know it was mentioned earlier on, but do have the vet check her thyroid levels. Especially with the weight gain along with everything else. If yourvet can draw blood and submit it through Jean dodd's hemopet... Even better. 

Hang in.


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## motherslittlehelper

krandall said:


> Here's something a friend of mine shared on FB earlier today, that goes along exactly with what you are saying, Missy! This is specifically addressing fear issues that can turn to aggression later, but I'm sure it includes ALL kinds of fear issues, and maturity in general. So many people think their "puppy" is all grown up when their body stops growing at about a year. But they have s-o-o-o much farther to go in terms of mental maturity.
> 
> "Reisner Veterinary Behavior & Consulting Services
> 
> Tuesday
> 
> Tuesday's Pearl: A dog's' brain matures more slowly than his body, and may not be "grown up" until 3 or 4 years of age. This is especially important when a puppy or young adult is fearful, because mature dogs are more likely to show their fear through aggression. If your young dog is skittish with strangers or especially sensitive to an older household dog, monitor and intervene sooner rather than later."


So, they are like humans in that the human brain is not mature when the body is either. I have read where human brains are not mature until the late 20s or maybe even later. I'll have to say that my immature brain was a heck of a lot more fun!

Tammy, I would definitely get Tillie's thyroid checked as others have suggested. With our heavy rains since October, my guys have not gotten the exercise they get when it is nicer and Augie is putting on weight too. Finn never sits still so he is still very thin. But Augie doesn't run around as much in the house. I just had him in today to get a urine sample for his UTI recheck.


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## TilliesMom

Linda ~ how did the urine re check go? Was he just on a 1 week antibiotic?

Thanks for the advice Missy! How does it work to get it to Jean Dodds?? Do I send it?
What is the cost??? I wonder if he can do HIS tests AND send it to Hemopet?? What IS Hemopet? lol


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## davetgabby

TilliesMom said:


> Linda ~ how did the urine re check go? Was he just on a 1 week antibiotic?
> 
> Thanks for the advice Missy! How does it work to get it to Jean Dodds?? Do I send it?
> What is the cost??? I wonder if he can do HIS tests AND send it to Hemopet?? What IS Hemopet? lol


wait till you get all the tests Tammy, if there's any hint of hypothyroidism you can have you vet draw blood and send it to Hemopet . But don't get ahead of yourself until you find out more. Hemopet explains here http://www.hemopet.org/


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## TilliesMom

okay! thanks for the heads up Dave!


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## motherslittlehelper

TilliesMom said:


> Linda ~ how did the urine re check go? Was he just on a 1 week antibiotic?
> 
> Thanks for the advice Missy! How does it work to get it to Jean Dodds?? Do I send it?
> What is the cost??? I wonder if he can do HIS tests AND send it to Hemopet?? What IS Hemopet? lol


Won't know until tomorrow, Tammy. But I am a bit concerned as he just went potty on the UgoDog, and there was a fair amount of blood in his urine. He has been able to go all night without having to go out, and several hours between trips outside during the day. I don't know if he was injured when they were getting the sample? He is acting ok. The vet is supposed to call me in the morning with the results. I took him out to potty when we got home from the vet and he had to go bad, but it was outside in the grass so I didn't see if there was blood then. He also had his anal glands emptied.


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## TilliesMom

oh my gosh, poor Augie  owie.... wow. What antibiotic was he on?? How did they get the urine sample? our poor babies... I wish they could TALK!

Tillie hasn't had her anal glands expressed in ages... probably a year and a 1/2... is it something we HAVE to do??? Is it a problem if it isn't done on a regular basis?


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## marlowe'sgirl

TilliesMom said:


> is it something we HAVE to do??? Is it a problem if it isn't done on a regular basis?


If your pup is scooting around on his butt or seems "sensitive" back there, anal glands are the first thing to check. Many dogs express their anal glands naturally when they poop, but sometimes they need a little help. Diet, age, and breed play into how often they need their glands expressed. High-fiber diet and younger pups need glands expressed less often, if at all. I think my Hav's glands have been expressed 1x/yr in his 3 years. No scooting prompted the first time, but my vet noted that the glands seemed really hard and rec'd that they should to be expressed at his next grooming. So, I just keep tabs before any professional grooming and if the glands hard I ask them to do it. So far, it hasn't been often.


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## motherslittlehelper

TilliesMom said:


> oh my gosh, poor Augie  owie.... wow. What antibiotic was he on?? How did they get the urine sample? our poor babies... I wish they could TALK!
> 
> Tillie hasn't had her anal glands expressed in ages... probably a year and a 1/2... is it something we HAVE to do??? Is it a problem if it isn't done on a regular basis?


Tammy, it was a long acting antibiotic given as an injection, called Convenia. Now, after doing some research on it, I am not real comfortable with the fact that he got it. I guess it is from the Cephalosporin class of antibiotics. What I am reading is that it stays in the system for 60+ days. If he were to have had a reaction to it, he would have to undergo long-term treatment as it does not clear the system readily as oral forms of antibiotics do. And it sounds as though there could have been some serious side effects, although I noticed no change in behavior, diarrhea or anything with him. Anemia is mentioned as a side effect. In the future, should his vet want to give him this again, I will definitely be asking more questions and whether there is another antibiotic he can be given, even though it may require more work on my part. He is not peeing a stream of blood but there was enough in it to tinge it red when he went on the UgoDog. Jack took him out to potty at bedtime, and watched with the flashlight when he went - said it didn't look red. They catheterized him to get the urine sample. I heard not a peep out of him.

Augie had his glands expressed once before, probably about a year ago. With all this rain, he hasn't been getting the exercise he should be getting. I hate going out in the rain so not walking them enough. I think that possibly contributes. I had smelled a 'funky'/unpleasant smell a couple of times recently on him, and asked the vet to check - she said they were full.


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## lfung5

Ok. I thought of Tillie last night. We all came to my BFs house to spend the night. Bella was acting so strange. She wouldn't come upstairs with us. When I went to look for her she was shaking and just staring at the wall. When I reached for her she ran under the table and just shook. She wouldn't even come outside, which she loves. I couldn't figure it out. Then my BF said could it be the chimes? He just installed an alarm system and everytime we opened a door, chimes went off! That was it! He turned them off and she was soon herself again.
Tammy, has anything changed in your home?


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## krandall

TilliesMom said:


> oh my gosh, poor Augie  owie.... wow. What antibiotic was he on?? How did they get the urine sample? our poor babies... I wish they could TALK!
> 
> Tillie hasn't had her anal glands expressed in ages... probably a year and a 1/2... is it something we HAVE to do??? Is it a problem if it isn't done on a regular basis?


Kodi has never needed to have his glands expressed. While it is inportant to do if the dog is having problems, you do NOT want to do it if there is no good reason. The more often they are expressed without cause, the more often they will need it.

Also, this something I, personally, would never have done by agroomer. If it needs to be done, I'd want it done by the vet.


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## marlowe'sgirl

krandall said:


> Also, this something I, personally, would never have done by agroomer. If it needs to be done, I'd want it done by the vet.


I was hesitant to have it done by a groomer, but my vet rec'd it - because it can be a very smelling process and your pup will need a bath afterwards and secondly, because most groomers do this daily - it is a very straightforward process. Some dogs/breeds need it done once/month.


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## Atticus

Not sure if it helps any but Atticus trembles in the car if I have the blower on or put on the windshield wipers. So for him I think it is the noise and those scary wipers. I think in part he wasn't used to those things so now that it's winter he is having to adjust. I just turn up the music and carry on. He mellows out if it's a long ride.That Tillie is a sweetie and this must be so hard. Think of you two often!


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## motherslittlehelper

Tammy, our Vet just called, and we are not at the end of our saga either. Augie's urine no longer shows bacteria, but it did contain a fair amount of blood and is quite concentrated. Same pattern as last year. So she is putting him on a 'urinary diet' for a month, which we also did last year and it restored his bladder health. Only thing different this time - we don't have crystals going on. Also, we are going to attempt a clean catch urine sample next time, no cath. since that seems to irritate him. He must have a high threshold for pain as he has never given any indication that he is in pain - he just has to pee often.

Any ideas from forum members on getting them to drink more water???


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## The Laughing Magpie

Linda, Yogi had the UTI from hell, we had his urine sent out and cultured after the second bout of antibiotics to see what antibiotic it reacted to, we went through two rounds of Clavamox (may have not spelled it right), and then the Vet put him on Baytrial (in the dog world it is the big gun), after the test came back, he was put back on Clavamox...less side effects...as the bacteria reacted to it, he was on this for a long time a month or more. Two weeks after we finished the Vet did a culture, six weeks another, all were clean. He is due for another after six months from the last date...just to be sure. Yogi's probably had his UTI for a long while, it is harder to notice in males, it is also less common. I was also told I needed to get him moving...that was really miserable for me! He just wanted to lay in a ball and sleep...we would walk five steps, he would stop, five more same thing, a 15 min. walk took 1.5 hours of lureing him along, he also was surly with the other dogs in class and at home. We did x rays, and ultra sound when I first took him is as he was in so much pain, also he had two rectal exams from two different Vets (same practice) looking for growths, stones and growths were ruled out early on.

Augie may just need to be on the antibiotic longer. The getting them moving makes them thirsty, maybe you could practice healing in the garage. The special food is formulated to desolve certain types of crystals quickly, also dogs who form crystals can get sand like crystals they are too small to see in an xray the food really helps. I hope Augie is back to his old self soon...even after Yogi was clear it took him a few weeks to get back to his old self...and here I thought he had finally calmed down!


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## krandall

motherslittlehelper said:


> Any ideas from forum members on getting them to drink more water???


With horses that don't drink enough, we mix as much water in their food as we can and still have them think it's food. I know this is what the vet suggested when Kodi had his tummy trouble a couple of years ago too. (though that was to get his intestines cleared out!)


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## krandall

The Laughing Magpie said:


> Linda, Yogi had the UTI from hell, we had his urine sent out and cultured after the second bout of antibiotics to see what antibiotic it reacted to, we went through two rounds of Clavamox (may have not spelled it right), and then the Vet put him on Baytrial (in the dog world it is the big gun), after the test came back, he was put back on Clavamox...less side effects...as the bacteria reacted to it, he was on this for a long time a month or more. Two weeks after we finished the Vet did a culture, six weeks another, all were clean. He is due for another after six months from the last date...just to be sure. Yogi's probably had his UTI for a long while, it is harder to notice in males, it is also less common. I was also told I needed to get him moving...that was really miserable for me! He just wanted to lay in a ball and sleep...we would walk five steps, he would stop, five more same thing, a 15 min. walk took 1.5 hours of lureing him along, he also was surly with the other dogs in class and at home. We did x rays, and ultra sound when I first took him is as he was in so much pain, also he had two rectal exams from two different Vets (same practice) looking for growths, stones and growths were ruled out early on.
> 
> Augie may just need to be on the antibiotic longer. The getting them moving makes them thirsty, maybe you could practice healing in the garage. The special food is formulated to desolve certain types of crystals quickly, also dogs who form crystals can get sand like crystals they are too small to see in an xray the food really helps. I hope Augie is back to his old self soon...even after Yogi was clear it took him a few weeks to get back to his old self...and here I thought he had finally calmed down!


I remember Yogi had a MISERABLE time!!! I'm glad to hear that, at least for now, it's cleared up.

It's funny how male dogs don't seem to show it when they have a UTI. Cats get them too, and the symptoms in the girls are very much what you see in girl dogs. But it's a HUGE big deal in a male cat, because they block really easily, which can quickly lead to life-threatening complications.


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## motherslittlehelper

I did NOT realize that male dogs don't show symptoms. The only thing that has given it away is that he had to go out more frequently and couldn't hold it all night. Oh, and the fact that Finn will not leave Augie's privates alone!! He must be smelling something wrong. For the past week, the frequency thing was pretty much gone....until the catheterization....and that seemed to stir the pot again. The long-acting antibiotic should still be in his system. And his Ua showed no bacteria. When I voiced my concerns over the things I had read about the Convenia inj., she seemed surprised, and said it concentrates in the urine and usually gives good results. When he was put on the urinary diet for a month last year, he gained weight rapidly, so I am definitely going to have to get him more exercise. I just felt like he should be resting to get over this, but maybe that was the wrong thing to do? I should have been getting him out more. I don't think he would give me problems with balking on walks. I am going to be the balker - I hate walking in the rain!!

Robbie, I hope Yogi will stay well!


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## TilliesMom

WOW, poor Augie!!  I can't understand why they needed to cath him!? poor guy...
The vet tech helped me get a urine sample with a sterile cup on a stick! worked awesome!
Hopefully it will be that easy this next time. The vet will be sending her urine out for a culture this time.

Good news/Bad news ... Tillie pee'd in her crate. again. this makes 3 times. sigh...
But the "good" news is that it doesn't smell strong at all!! yay!! 
I had my husband check because when she went out first thing this morning she only poop'd. My first thought. OH NO, she pee'd in her crate. and I was right. sigh.


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## The Laughing Magpie

Karen, The Vet was concerned about Yogi because he said the same thing about male dogs as cats!!! The is way we ruled all of the other stuff out first. Yogi's was showings signs by the time I took him to the Vet his tummy was tucked up, it hurt for him to poop, and walking up and down the stairs was painful, I had no idea it was a UTI.

Linda, No licking!!! Vet told me not to let Yogi lick himself or let Boo Boo engage in the male dog ritual of licking each other's accessory.

Tammy, I hope they get Tillie better soon.


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## motherslittlehelper

The Laughing Magpie said:


> Karen, The Vet was concerned about Yogi because he said the same thing about male dogs as cats!!! The is way we ruled all of the other stuff out first. Yogi's was showings signs by the time I took him to the Vet his tummy was tucked up, it hurt for him to poop, and walking up and down the stairs was painful, I had no idea it was a UTI.
> 
> Linda, No licking!!! Vet told me not to let Yogi lick himself or let Boo Boo engage in the male dog ritual of licking each other's accessory.
> 
> Tammy, I hope they get Tillie better soon.


That is going to be a good trick - keeping him from licking himself???? He always cleans himself after going potty. I have been keeping him and Finn separated. Maybe if I wash him with a clean cloth after he goes potty? I am taking him in this afternoon for one of those subcutaneous fluid injections to help get more fluid through him.


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## sandypaws

Wow, I am so sorry that all of you are going through these problems with your babies and my thoughts and prayers are with you and your guys. I hope everything works out well in the long run. Hang tight, as it must be so tough to see your little ones have these problems.


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## TilliesMom

sub-q fluids!?  How do you know he needs them?
Tillie hasn't been drinking straight water for weeks, I am watering her food down SOOOO much, she is basically drinking her meals. lol It's the only way I can keep her hydrated, but her face is a MESS...


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## motherslittlehelper

TilliesMom said:


> sub-q fluids!?  How do you know he needs them?
> Tillie hasn't been drinking straight water for weeks, I am watering her food down SOOOO much, she is basically drinking her meals. lol It's the only way I can keep her hydrated, but her face is a MESS...


Tammy, I don't know if he NEEDS them or not. It was just part of the treatment plan last year and he got over his UTI then. And he is not drinking much at all, or eating today. And Finn is going nuts - I know he smells something amiss. I am hoping the extra fluid will help flush Augie out. I am about ready to smear Vicks Vapo Rub all over Finn's nose to keep him from smelling anything. He is getting on my last nerve today.


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## davetgabby

yeah Tammy I emailed Sabine days ago on how to help get more water into her. Still waiting for a reply. She's still on holidays. The nerve of the woman. lol


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## TilliesMom

awwww, thanks so much Dave! I'm thinking we might need to adjust her diet if this continues to be a problem.. but both Sabine and her vet say that's not the case...?
But, I can't for the life of me figure out why she will NOT drink. I've tried everything I can think of, she flat out refuses. It's really odd. Thus the 1/2 a cup of water added to her am and pm meals. it may not SEEM like a lot of water. But try it. add 1/2 a cup of water to your havs food for a meal... lol. she literally laps up her food... 
Hey, it's keeping her hydrated for the time being!!


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## davetgabby

she's probably getting enough water then. Wait and see what the tests show.


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## Suzi

The Laughing Magpie said:


> Linda, Yogi had the UTI from hell, we had his urine sent out and cultured after the second bout of antibiotics to see what antibiotic it reacted to, we went through two rounds of Clavamox (may have not spelled it right), and then the Vet put him on Baytrial (in the dog world it is the big gun), after the test came back, he was put back on Clavamox...less side effects...as the bacteria reacted to it, he was on this for a long time a month or more. Two weeks after we finished the Vet did a culture, six weeks another, all were clean. He is due for another after six months from the last date...just to be sure. Yogi's probably had his UTI for a long while, it is harder to notice in males, it is also less common. I was also told I needed to get him moving...that was really miserable for me! He just wanted to lay in a ball and sleep...we would walk five steps, he would stop, five more same thing, a 15 min. walk took 1.5 hours of lureing him along, he also was surly with the other dogs in class and at home. We did x rays, and ultra sound when I first took him is as he was in so much pain, also he had two rectal exams from two different Vets (same practice) looking for growths, stones and growths were ruled out early on.
> 
> Augie may just need to be on the antibiotic longer. The getting them moving makes them thirsty, maybe you could practice healing in the garage. The special food is formulated to desolve certain types of crystals quickly, also dogs who form crystals can get sand like crystals they are too small to see in an xray the food really helps. I hope Augie is back to his old self soon...even after Yogi was clear it took him a few weeks to get back to his old self...and here I thought he had finally calmed down!


 I find it interesting that most vets put them on special dog food and sabin and your vet don't think its food related? Do you know how to check for dehydration ? I was also wondering about the treats you give her? do you think they are easy to digest?
I hope both Augie and Tillie get better soon.:kiss:


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## Suzi

motherslittlehelper said:


> Tammy, I don't know if he NEEDS them or not. It was just part of the treatment plan last year and he got over his UTI then. And he is not drinking much at all, or eating today. And Finn is going nuts - I know he smells something amiss. I am hoping the extra fluid will help flush Augie out. I am about ready to smear Vicks Vapo Rub all over Finn's nose to keep him from smelling anything. He is getting on my last nerve today.


 What about a bellie band? is that what their called?


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## TilliesMom

Suzi said:


> I find it interesting that most vets put them on special dog food and sabin and your vet don't think its food related? Do you know how to check for dehydration ? I was also wondering about the treats you give her? do you think they are easy to digest?
> I hope both Augie and Tillie get better soon.:kiss:


ya, I know, I really wonder about this also...
nope, not the treats, she really doesn't get many treats cause we aren't training in anyway right now. She gets rewards after bath/combing/taking her medicine, but they are either small peices of cheese or the little frozen squares of sweet potato I make for her. sigh.


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## motherslittlehelper

Suzi said:


> What about a bellie band? is that what their called?


Suzi, I do have a belly band here, that I may have to put on him, just to keep noses and tongues out. The special diets may be an effort to alter the pH. Last year, Augie's pH was too alkaline, our vet said, in the range where crystals and bact. could grow.


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## TilliesMom

yes, Tillie was super Alkaline also... but nothing has ever been said about changing her food....? odd.


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## Suzi

TilliesMom said:


> yes, Tillie was super Alkaline also... but nothing has ever been said about changing her food....? odd.


 Well it wouldn't hurt to call the vet and ask if you were to try canned food what kind because of her allergies. Maddie and Zoey are itching and Maddie has a soar on her neck. Have you ever put a ointment on Tillie like one for humans? Zoey keeps sniffing her just like Finn is but on her neck. If it makes you feel any better one of mine peeded on my coat last night:frusty: Mine are just plan not trained well. I'm still praying Miss Tillie and Mr Augie will get back to their old self's very soon.


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## motherslittlehelper

Suzi said:


> Well it wouldn't hurt to call the vet and ask if you were to try canned food what kind because of her allergies. Maddie and Zoey are itching and Maddie has a soar on her neck. Have you ever put a ointment on Tillie like one for humans? Zoey keeps sniffing her just like Finn is but on her neck. If it makes you feel any better one of mine peeded on my coat last night:frusty: Mine are just plan not trained well. I'm still praying Miss Tillie and Mr Augie will get back to their old self's very soon.


Suzi, I posted this somewhere - but I did ask the vet about Neosporin on Friday when I had Augie in. She said it was safe to use on dogs, even if they lick it. Are they still itching - even after their recent baths?


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## Suzi

motherslittlehelper said:


> Suzi, I posted this somewhere - but I did ask the vet about Neosporin on Friday when I had Augie in. She said it was safe to use on dogs, even if they lick it. Are they still itching - even after their recent baths?


 Thanks Linda I'll put some on her sore. They are a lot better I didn't read the direction on the special shampoo until today and it said I was suppose to leave it on for 10 min and really lather it up. So I think i'll give them another bath next week. By the way it really made their coats nice and soft its called Epi Sooth made by Virbac for cats dogs and horses. It doesn't have any soap in it at all and is made with natural oat grain.


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## TilliesMom

oh ya, I've used neosporin several times on Tillie and our cats...


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## JazzFest13

I think your Tilly and my Desilu are going through similar things. Desilu is not even a year old, and has reoccuring UTIs since she was spayed back in July. She's also seemed to have develop spay incontinence which means if she goes down for a nap, she ends up urinating on herself and whatever she's laying on. I may let her out once an hour, but she still manages to require a butt bath on a daily basis. She's been on several different antibiotics and the end of each dose, she still hasn't cleared the bacteria. The vets also found crystals in her urine. She's been on canned S/D for the past month. 

I just dropped off another urine sample at the vet. At least now, I don't have to pay for the visit, just the urinalysis. If it comes back positive for bacteria, I'll have to bring her in for a urine culture. I am at the end of my rope because it seems like as long as I've had her, she's never been healthy, though to no one's fault. I've spent an enormous amount of money on vet visits, and she's peeped on my MIL's comforter and grandmother's chair...and multiple times on my lap. She's on DES, which is supposed to control the incontinence, but it doesn't seem to be working well.

I love my Desilu so very much, and it is heartbreaking to me that she could be in pain and discomfort because of this constant UTI. 

I hope Tillie gets well soon.


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## TilliesMom

(((HUGS))) we are all in this together. sigh.
so sad, so frustrating and heartbreaking to see our pups struggle and to try to help them and fail...


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## HannahBearsMom

TilliesMom said:


> yes, Tillie was super Alkaline also... but nothing has ever been said about changing her food....? odd.


Maccabee will start a medication to dissolve his bladder stones and crystals as soon as it arrives in the mail (vet mailed it to me since he is about 40 minutes away and he didn't want us to start it until Maccabee's tummy is better anyhow).

I'm almost afraid to say this for fear that it may jinx us: Maccabee has not peed in the house in about 5 days! I'm hoping that curing him of the urinary infection and stones will get him to the point I can say he is fully house trained. He received an antibiotic injection for his UTI. I don't recall the name, but I can find out.


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## motherslittlehelper

HannahBearsMom said:


> Maccabee will start a medication to dissolve his bladder stones and crystals as soon as it arrives in the mail (vet mailed it to me since he is about 40 minutes away and he didn't want us to start it until Maccabee's tummy is better anyhow).
> 
> I'm almost afraid to say this for fear that it may jinx us: Maccabee has not peed in the house in about 5 days! I'm hoping that curing him of the urinary infection and stones will get him to the point I can say he is fully house trained. He received an antibiotic injection for his UTI. I don't recall the name, but I can find out.


Augie also received an antibiotic injection - a long acting one, called Convenia. After reading on it, it made me a bit nervous, but when I brought up my concerns to our vet, she was surprised, said she has never had any problems using it and it is highly effective in treating UTI's.

Augie seems much improved today. He went from around 12:30 last night to 6 a.m. this morning, and then from 6 to 10:30 a. He started feeling better around midnight last night - throwing the ball around and playing fetch with himself. We are going to start a cranberry supplement, when it comes in. He is still not drinking much plain water, so I am pouring water on his food as you suggested Tammy. He doesn't seem to mind it being soupy.

May all our fur kids soon be well! I hope that once Desilu's infection is cleared up, she will no longer be incontinent.


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## Suzi

JazzFest13 said:


> I think your Tilly and my Desilu are going through similar things. Desilu is not even a year old, and has reoccuring UTIs since she was spayed back in July. She's also seemed to have develop spay incontinence which means if she goes down for a nap, she ends up urinating on herself and whatever she's laying on. I may let her out once an hour, but she still manages to require a butt bath on a daily basis. She's been on several different antibiotics and the end of each dose, she still hasn't cleared the bacteria. The vets also found crystals in her urine. She's been on canned S/D for the past month.
> 
> I just dropped off another urine sample at the vet. At least now, I don't have to pay for the visit, just the urinalysis. If it comes back positive for bacteria, I'll have to bring her in for a urine culture. I am at the end of my rope because it seems like as long as I've had her, she's never been healthy, though to no one's fault. I've spent an enormous amount of money on vet visits, and she's peeped on my MIL's comforter and grandmother's chair...and multiple times on my lap. She's on DES, which is supposed to control the incontinence, but it doesn't seem to be working well.
> 
> I love my Desilu so very much, and it is heartbreaking to me that she could be in pain and discomfort because of this constant UTI.
> 
> I hope Tillie gets well soon.


 I'm sorry Desilu is having such problems  Has anyone ever used cranberry powder for dogs? Just thinking. It does sound like it has something to do with her spay.


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## Suzi

Linda funny you just wrote about the cranberry. I started the sisters on vitamins. Its called springtime Fresh Factors. I bought it over a year ago and Bob didn't like me giving them vitamins but I figure what can it hurt.


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## davetgabby

Suzi said:


> Linda funny you just wrote about the cranberry. I started the sisters on vitamins. Its called springtime Fresh Factors. I bought it over a year ago and Bob didn't like me giving them vitamins but I figure what can it hurt.


hi Suzi, vitamin adding really isn't needed with kibble feeding. But be aware certain vitamins can be overdosed. here's a quote from Dog Food Project

Toxicity: Excessive vitamin D supplementation can result in increased calcium absorption from the intestines. This can

cause increased calcium resorption from the bones, leading to elevated levels of calcium in the blood. Elevated blood

calcium may contribute to calcium deposition in soft tissues such as the heart and lungs. This can reduce their

ability to function. Kidney stones, vomiting.

Toxicity: None known, but high levels of vitamin E can adversely affect the absorption of vitamins A and K, causing

deficiencies. In the case of vitamin K this can interfere with normal blood clotting

Toxicity: None, vitamin C is water soluble and excess is regularly excreted by the body, but overconsumption may cause

diarrhea since vitamin C is a natural laxative. Recent studies have shown that excessively high doses of vitamin C may

contribute to the formation of kidney stones, and in very rare cases anemia caused by interference with vitamin B12

absorption


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## krandall

motherslittlehelper said:


> Augie also received an antibiotic injection - a long acting one, called Convenia. After reading on it, it made me a bit nervous, but when I brought up my concerns to our vet, she was surprised, said she has never had any problems using it and it is highly effective in treating UTI's.


The two times Kodi has been on antibiotics (both times for skin infections, once when he was a puppy, and once exactly a year later) they gave him that shot. In our case, they were going to give him an oral version of the same class of drug... cephalosporin. But I am severely allergic to it (anaphylaxis) and we didn't want to take a chance that in trying to get a liquid med into him, he'd manage to fling it into my mouth or eyes. By giving him the long-acting shot, he got the antibiotics he needed, and I wasn't exposed to something dangerous for me.

It worked quickly and completely, and he had no side effects from it at all... Not even loose stools. (though we did put him on probiotics too, just in case.


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## rokipiki

Yesterday I had a cofee with vet I know and I told him whole story from this tread. He said that UTI is extremely rare condition in dogs here if you do not count those who are spayed and neutered. He told me that altered dogs seem to be more prone to UTI - girls because uterus is holding and protecting their bladder, and boys because the whole system is functionig worse without sexual hormones. I never had any kind of UTI, but after ovarectomy I had last summer, I have constant problem. I am keeping that under control with cranberry stuff and some other herbs. it seems that it has something to do with hormones!


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## Missy

7 years into dog ownership... I finally figured out that at least for my boys, less is more as far as vitamins go. The only thing they get daily is acidophilus. Fish oil when ithink of it. Food too. I stopped For the most part doctoring their food... With extra veggies, and Cash's stomach issues seemed to have resolved. He is allergy free (but itis also wi ter) They do still get to enjoy what ever it is we are eating for diversity  

There is a dental product by vetri science that you sprinkle on their food however that does have cranberry in it and zeolites, and lots of probiotics... I wonder if it would also help with female uti issues..


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## Suzi

davetgabby said:


> hi Suzi, vitamin adding really isn't needed with kibble feeding. But be aware certain vitamins can be overdosed. here's a quote from Dog Food Project
> 
> Toxicity: Excessive vitamin D supplementation can result in increased calcium absorption from the intestines. This can
> 
> cause increased calcium resorption from the bones, leading to elevated levels of calcium in the blood. Elevated blood
> 
> calcium may contribute to calcium deposition in soft tissues such as the heart and lungs. This can reduce their
> 
> ability to function. Kidney stones, vomiting.
> 
> Toxicity: None known, but high levels of vitamin E can adversely affect the absorption of vitamins A and K, causing
> 
> deficiencies. In the case of vitamin K this can interfere with normal blood clotting
> 
> Toxicity: None, vitamin C is water soluble and excess is regularly excreted by the body, but overconsumption may cause
> 
> diarrhea since vitamin C is a natural laxative. Recent studies have shown that excessively high doses of vitamin C may
> 
> contribute to the formation of kidney stones, and in very rare cases anemia caused by interference with vitamin B12
> 
> absorption


 thank you Dave I have three bottles because I got by one get two free. it has 12 different ingredients. the largest one is Biotin 700 mcg I have no idea what that is. and next is a yeast culture 350 MG . and i'll have to look up everything.


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## Thumper

I really hope Tillie gets better, I think home cooking for a few months would be agreat way to see if it is being caused by something in her food, additives, gluten, etc. There are some symptom specific threads in the dog homecooking group I joined a few years back, I think it was google or yahoo groups (a very large group) where people were venturing into it because of various illnesses/ conditions, etc. 

i can't imagine your husband asking you to rehome her if he knows you love her as much as you do.  And kids, I think kids can get jealous and the thing is, if they are mad at her, frustrated with her or have a bad vibe in general when they interact with her, she will immediately pick up on that and respond accordingly, they should try play acting happy and see how Tillie responds..I do think she is just sensing their feelings towards her and feeling the vibe of something being wrong in the house can cause some anxiety.

:grouphug:

hang in there, 

Kara


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## krandall

Biotin is a joint supplement and I suppose the yeast culture is to aid digestion. I don't like "shotgun" supplements. If your dog has a specific need, address it. Just giving them "stuff" in small amounts isn't useful. Also, the kind of supplements you get on sale like that can be of questionable quality. Unlikely to hurt them, but also unlikely to do anything positive either. To be useful, a supplement has to be in the proper amount for the size of the animal, it has to be high quality, bio-available, and FRESH. If you bought these over a year ago, I wouldn't be using them just for that reason alone.


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## krandall

Thumper said:


> I really hope Tillie gets better, I think home cooking for a few months would be agreat way to see if it is being caused by something in her food, additives, gluten, etc.


Kara, Tammy home cooks for Tillie already... a recipe Sabine helped her formulate based on Tillie's many allergies.


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## TilliesMom

krandall said:


> Kara, Tammy home cooks for Tillie already... a recipe Sabine helped her formulate based on Tillie's many allergies.


yup, been home cooking for close to 2 yrs now... 

Although I really wonder about both my vet AND Sabine saying her urine crystal issues aren't related to food....??? Her protien is ground beef. with purre'd veggies and her starch is sweet potato.


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## Suzi

krandall said:


> Biotin is a joint supplement and I suppose the yeast culture is to aid digestion. I don't like "shotgun" supplements. If your dog has a specific need, address it. Just giving them "stuff" in small amounts isn't useful. Also, the kind of supplements you get on sale like that can be of questionable quality. Unlikely to hurt them, but also unlikely to do anything positive either. To be useful, a supplement has to be in the proper amount for the size of the animal, it has to be high quality, bio-available, and FRESH. If you bought these over a year ago, I wouldn't be using them just for that reason alone.


 Okay I'll throw them out.


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