# Stop this ****



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

More evidence that we are overvaccinting our pets. http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/purdue-vaccination-studies/


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

That's a really great article! Well worth a read. Thanks for posting.

Kara


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

Thank you so much for posting the article. So, what are we to do? 

You can't get a rabies tag without the vaccine. I did a titer on Dexter last year, he had sufficient antibodies, but no tag...so therefore, if I am caught at the dog park without an updated rabies tag, I pay a fine. 

Guess I need to find my proof for sufficient antibodies on Dexter's rabies vaccine.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

HavaneseSoon said:


> Thank you so much for posting the article. So, what are we to do?
> 
> You can't get a rabies tag without the vaccine. I did a titer on Dexter last year, he had sufficient antibodies, but no tag...so therefore, if I am caught at the dog park without an updated rabies tag, I pay a fine.
> 
> Guess I need to find my proof for sufficient antibodies on Dexter's rabies vaccine.


Linda, rabies is the exception to this. It's the only one that is governed by local rules. They've got us by the ----- on this one. But any other vacs we have a choice. That's up to us. I don't want to tell you what I do because everyone has to make their own choices. Some of which can definitely be influenced by geographics. Some lobbying is being done so that titer test can be used to get a certificate for rabies. Hopefully , coming to a theatre near you soon.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

So much of what is sold to us by our vets is just not state of the art practice. It is discouraging. Many of the vet schools have Hills Science Diet sponsorship and from the time the vets leave school, they recommend and are compensated for selling that junk food...then there is the neuter/spay issue...don't get me started on that...off soapbox..


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

I am scared to death, Tillie has her rabies vaccine scheduled for Wednesday... She is going to the same holistic vet that did all of her allergy testing, but I am still really nervous. I talked with them and she DID say that they are VERY well aware of vaccine reactions especially in small dogs and that they DO measure out the dose according to the dogs weight, so she will get a dose for an 8 lb dog instead of the "normal" one dose fits all. I will be SURE to remind them of this when we go in. I also plan on hangin around the office for awhile to make sure she doesn't have any reactions. 
It will be good for a 3 yr rabies tag... sigh...


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

you're a good mom Tammy. not to worry Tillie will be fine. No other vacs with this right??


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

It wasn't the Rabies I was talking about...I just checked Dexter's tags. Rabies tag is good till 2012. It must of been something else I did a Titer on....now, I need to figure out what the vaccine was they wanted to give Dexter last year, because I am sure they will want to give Jack a vaccine next year.

Is the Rabies vaccine the only vaccine that is required?


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

right Dave, just the 1, she will need the parvo one later, I will probably wait about a month...


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

Here is an older link on vaccines and titers http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=5220&highlight=titer


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

HavaneseSoon said:


> It wasn't the Rabies I was talking about...I just checked Dexter's tags. Rabies tag is good till 2012. It must of been something else I did a Titer on....now, I need to figure out what the vaccine was they wanted to give Dexter last year, because I am sure they will want to give Jack a vaccine next year.
> 
> Is the Rabies vaccine the only vaccine that is required?


yep from what I know of Canada and U.S. Although bordetella for kennel cough can be required for boarding . And that s another joke.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

A little off topic but in the same vein...Shelby has an ear infection. She was scratching her ear like mad ans it was very red. I cleaned it with ear solution and took out a wad of hair, but she was still scratching, so off to the vet we went. He cleaned it out some more and gave me some meds to put in the ear. Also an oral med, hydroxyine, to stop the itching. 

I gave her a pill with her food about 6pm and we went to bed about 11. At 2am Shelby woke me up and she was crying and sort of gagging. A little while later she vomited and just could not settle down. Still made that gagging sound and finally about 4am she went to sleep.

Next day I googled the meds and it says it is given for anxiety and allergies. :crazy: And the side effects were nausea, vomiting, trouble breathing etc. That was the first and last pill I gave her and her ear is just fine.


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## tcollins (May 1, 2011)

Gosh, we already have to be so careful of the vaccines we give to our kids, now our dogs, too! Thanks- great article.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

TilliesMom said:


> right Dave, just the 1, she will need the parvo one later, I will probably wait about a month...


 I don't think you need to give Tillie the Parvo she already has her antibodies for parvo from her first shots. Its just a way for the vets to make more money.


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## heatherk (Feb 24, 2011)

I'm a bit torn on this. First of all, no offense Dave, but although that article has references, it is hardly a peer-reviewed scientific article. Secondly, I am big believer in the concepts of vaccinations in general - they have done a TON of good ever since the smallpox vaccination was discovered - but, I vehemently do NOT believe in giving vaccinations without question, without research, to any animal, human or pet, because although good overall, they do pose risks for the individual.

I waited until my daughter was 4 to give her any vaccinations for various reasons beyond the 'vaccine debate', and I still have issues with giving her some of them (for instance, the Varicella vaccination - chicken pox!!!! But, I won't expound on that at the moment...). I also took the advice from this forum and elsewhere to give Ceylon his rabies shot until at least 3 weeks after, and 3 weeks before, any other vaccination. He has not had any bad reaction to any of his vaccinations, so I think that he will continue to be fine - but, some dogs do have reactions, and you never know until it happens.

I guess what I am trying to say is, research is definitely called for for every vaccination you are planning on giving your dog, or your kid. But some articles, whether for or against, seem to be to be... so passionate as to be biased or even inaccurate, even if for the right reasons in the sense of the writer's perspective. I am not trying to say that this doctor is wrong (or right), just that more research than this article is indicated for people considering vaccinations for their dogs.

Make sense?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

The thing is, Heather, whether we believe that article word for word, or whether we are concerned that OUR dog will be "the one" affected, there ARE some things we know FOR SURE about vaccines.

We know FOR SURE that they do not need any of the regular vaccines yearly. Years of titering have shown that you can find a good solid immune response for a number of years past when the vaccine was given. AND, just because you don't get a titer, doesn't mean that the animal isn't protected, it just puts us in that scary "we don't know" land. 

Studies (by the manufacturers) are showing good strong titers on rabies vaccine at 7 years. The problem is that rabies is SUCH a deadly disease, and a serious HUMAN health hazard as well as a hazard for the dog. So legislators are reluctant to take a chance by extending the vaccine schedule beyond 3 years. And if I were the parent of a kid bitten by a dog, I certainly would want to know FOR SURE that the dog was properly immunized, so I understand both sides of this one.

Kodi had his puppy shots, spaced out with at least 3 weeks between each. He also had his 1 year boosters. (again spaced out) I talked to my vet in detail about titering when he was in for his 2 year old check up. He said that you are going to get a good titer for a minimum of 3 years, and it's not even worth the money. So Kodi will get NO more shots until his 4 year old check up. At that point, we will do rabies, since he hasn't had a problem with it, and legally we should. We will titer for the other things. If he still has a titer, we will not vaccinate for anything else. If not, I'll have to make a decision whether to give him one more round or not. He MAY (probably will be) still be covered, even without a titer, but do I want to take the chance? My understanding is that after that second round, he is most likely set for life.

The VET suggested stopping vaccines on our cat for similar reasons. She IS vaccine sensitive, and is now 12 years old. We have had to space out her vaccinations AND premedicate with benadryl for every vaccine for a number of years now. The vet said she has been vaccinated so many times (before I knew what I know now) that she HAS to be covered for life. So again, the only thing she will ever get again is the rabies shot every 3 years. 

To me, this seems like a good middle of the road plan based on what we know FOR SURE about vaccines at this point, and balancing the benefits with the potential risks. It's a little more paperwork to track, but it's worth it!

Oh, and I see NO reason to give Bordatella other than a requirement by a boarding/day care place. It is marginally effective against only a few (of many) strains of a disease that is not life threatening, and the effectiveness only lasts a very short time. IMO, the only "reason" boarding facilities insist on it is so that WHEN (not if) they have an out-break of kennel cough, just like a cold going around a pre-school, they can tell all the clients, "well, we did everything we could to prevent it!"


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## heatherk (Feb 24, 2011)

Oh, I fully agree Karen - caution, and research, are called for when giving vaccinations. But somebody could easily read this or similar articles and decide not to get their dog vaccinated at all, which is IMO not a good decision because it would be based on one-sided research.

My daughter showed strong signs of autism when she was an infant, until almost a year old. She cried almost all the time unless I was holding her and walking, never made eye contact, went stiff as a board whenever anybody but myself tried to hold her, wouldn't play usual baby games like peek-a-boo, and (later) would entertain herself for hours lining things up in intricate, detailed patterns (the lining things up in patterns lasted many years). Among other things, one of the things I did was to put off getting her any vaccinations at all until she was 4 - and I caught a lot of flak for it especially when she actually caught whooping cough! Which, to say it was an awful experience for both of us, would be a humongous understatement. She was actually too young to 'whoop' and instead, would literally cough until she had no air left to cough, and then she would keep trying to cough for up to a minute or more, and turn blue, until she finally could catch a breath again, at which point, she would start coughing again - and, this went on for weeks and weeks. Scariest 6 weeks of my life (and yes, I took her to the doc many times throughout the weeks, but there is not much they can do by the time the sickness hits the lungs) - and it really illustrates the point that, choosing NOT to vaccinate is just as scary, if not scarier, than vaccinating -at least in most cases. However, I stand by my decision; and today, my daughter is a healthy, happy, social, bright, funny, popular 11-year old. If she had been a 'normal' baby, I still would have delayed the vaccinations but not quite so long, I don't think. 

Thorough research, an understanding of your child's or your dog's temperament and health, and a full understanding of the possible consequences either way are what is required to make an educated decision, and not just reading one scary article where the author clearly is thoroughly anti-vaccination. That's all I'm trying to say


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## ShirleyH (Sep 13, 2009)

After the one-year booster,which he's had, no more vaccines without titering and this includes rabies. If the titer shows immunity to rabies, Keeper will not get the shot. I will ask for documentation of the titer results on rabies. Someone has to start fighting this and it might as well be us.


Shirley H.


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## Miss Paige (Apr 4, 2008)

I Do Not vaccinate my "kids". The only vaccine they receive is the three years Rabies-I have done titers for over 5 years on Paige and 4 years on Roman-both have held good levels so neither my vets or I think they need any vaccines. It is more expense to do titers but better than just doing the shots with no thought about the effects-JMO.

My vet will not agree to the titers for the rabies-and I live in a state that is tough on that rule so now I am trying to tell my vets to start a movement to make the drug companies develop a five year shot-of course this will never happen but you can always hope that we will see that someday.

Pat (humom to)
Miss Paige
Mr Roman
Ms T for as long as she needs
Ms Frannie (my true angel girl)


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

Tillie got her rabies vaccine today, so far so good. I really like her vet, he is the holistic guy who first did the blood work and discovered her allergies.
Her weight held steady at 8.6 lbs for 4 months of home feeding! and he said she was looking great! 
Poor baby didn't know what hit her and whimper AFTER the shot for several seconds, then was shaking, but I think that was just cause she was scared. She loves people SO much that for someone to "HURT" her was very disturbing to her! 
I talked with him about the parvo combo vaccine that she also "needs" and he said he recommends getting another one since it is basically a booster and that after that she probably won't ever need 1 again. So we will just be down to having to do rabies every 3 years! She will get the parvo vaccine in a month.


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## Cailleach (Jan 30, 2010)

davetgabby said:


> yep from what I know of Canada and U.S. Although bordetella for kennel cough can be required for boarding . And that s another joke.


It's so silly, even the boarding kennels know it's futile with so many strains, but yet they insist upon it. I have always been a minimalist when it comes to shots and I truely wish the day will come when enough dog owners complain enough and provide the facts of the harm associated with shots that there will be a revise for the health of our animals.:frusty:


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

When I first got my pups, I read a book about vaccines. I decided not to vaccinate after puppy shots, but I do titer. Yes, I think the initial vaccines are necessary, but I think giving yearly boosters is overkill. Whether you read an article for or against vaccines, nobody can dispute blood tests. My guys get titers and they are still protected after all these years, with no boosters. They are 7, 6 and 5 years old. Thanks for posting this Dave!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Miss Paige said:


> I Do Not vaccinate my "kids". The only vaccine they receive is the three years Rabies-I have done titers for over 5 years on Paige and 4 years on Roman-both have held good levels so neither my vets or I think they need any vaccines. It is more expense to do titers but better than just doing the shots with no thought about the effects-JMO.
> 
> My vet will not agree to the titers for the rabies-and I live in a state that is tough on that rule so now I am trying to tell my vets to start a movement to make the drug companies develop a five year shot-of course this will never happen but you can always hope that we will see that someday.
> 
> ...


Pat, there is already a LOT of evidence that the rabies vaccine available NOW is good for a minimum of 7 years. The problem is that to prove that, they can't just run titers. The drug company would have to maintain a LARGE group of dogs for that length of time, and do live virus challenges on them (which means TRYING to infect them with Rabies) to prove that the vaccine was effective. Because of the very strict laws on using dogs for research, it's not just the cost of physically maintaining all these dogs, they must also have regular human input, handling, enrichment, etc. It was hard enough to get that done over 3 years. The likelihood that a company will do it over 7 years is extremely slim.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TilliesMom said:


> Tillie got her rabies vaccine today, so far so good. I really like her vet, he is the holistic guy who first did the blood work and discovered her allergies.
> Her weight held steady at 8.6 lbs for 4 months of home feeding! and he said she was looking great!
> Poor baby didn't know what hit her and whimper AFTER the shot for several seconds, then was shaking, but I think that was just cause she was scared. She loves people SO much that for someone to "HURT" her was very disturbing to her!
> I talked with him about the parvo combo vaccine that she also "needs" and he said he recommends getting another one since it is basically a booster and that after that she probably won't ever need 1 again. So we will just be down to having to do rabies every 3 years! She will get the parvo vaccine in a month.


That's pretty much what we did with Kodi too. He survived his shots with no ill effects, by why chance more than they absolutely need?


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

made it through the night without any problems.. .hopefull that Tillie is nearly at the 'all clear'! So thankful for this forum and the education you all have given me!!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

TilliesMom said:


> made it through the night without any problems.. .hopefull that Tillie is nearly at the 'all clear'! So thankful for this forum and the education you all have given me!!


Glad all is well Tammy. Your initial worries are of the anaphylaxis or hypersensitivity nature. And these are usually within hours. But the scary longterm risks of over vaccination include

• fibrosarcomas
• immune-mediated
hemolytic anemia
• thrombocytopenia
• polyarthritis
• atopy
• chronic allergies
• asthma and other
respiratory diseases. 
-leukaemia, thyroid disease, Addison's disease, diabetes, and lymphoma

And probably more as studies are still in their early stages. Sorry for bringing this up . But this is where we stand. I',m sure things are going to change for the better ,but in the meantime people have to be aware, and voice their concerns to their vets etc.

Here's something interesting I found ...."parvovirus was created by vaccines. This disease didn't exist prior to the 1970s. In fact, scientists tell us it was created by vaccine manufacturers who cultured the distemper vaccine on cat kidneys that were infected with feline enteritis. This cat-enteritis-diseased distemper vaccine was then injected into dogs around the world".


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

That doesn't surprise me Dave! It shows as pet owners we really need to do our homework and ask questions!


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## jessegirl (May 13, 2011)

I just spotted this one. Sadly, my hairdresser just told me at my last visit that one of her wire-coated dachshunds has recently gotten very sick with a disease her vet told her is associated with vaccination. I'm pretty sure it is the autoimmune haemolytic anaemia that the article mentions. I'll double check next time I go in. Very frightening. Thanks for sharing Dave.

Oh, and her pup was in the early stages of treatment and it was unclear what his prognosis would be, but she was hopeful.


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## narci (Sep 6, 2011)

making me question if Oreo should get anymore shots after his first rabies shot in 2 weeks.

Dave, I want to thank you for opening my eyes on this subject. I, just like most people, assumed that all vaccines are good for our furbabies and to get every vaccine out there with no though of reprecussions.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

narci said:


> making me question if Oreo should get anymore shots after his first rabies shot in 2 weeks.
> 
> Dave, I want to thank you for opening my eyes on this subject. I, just like most people, assumed that all vaccines are good for our furbabies and to get every vaccine out there with no though of reprecussions.


Thanks to people like DR. Jean Dodds and Dr. Schultz the message is slowly getting out there. Vets know these vacs last longer but the reason they push the yearly boosters is to get you in there for a yearly checkup. Which is fine. But it's not a necessary service for sure. 
Things are going to change ,so long as we speak up , not only to our own vets but to our local authorities.


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## Ruthi (Nov 10, 2011)

ok, so, I am totally confused about this. My little Gabby has had her first round of puppy shots. So, is three rounds of puppy shots needed? Please someone tell me. Confused.............


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