# how much time



## Scarlett's mom (Feb 14, 2017)

Can I expect for training? I was supposed to be leaving my part time job in June the week after we pick up Scarlett. Due to many issues I have been asked to stay a little longer and have been given permission to bring her to work with me. I haven't had a puppy for probably 25 years so I don't remember the time commitment necessary for proper training. I'm ready to go in today and tell them they HAVE to hire a temporary person so I can come in only as needed. I do not want to confuse the puppy either. She will be home with me for a full week after we bring her home. I'll bring the crate with me. She will be able to play in my office which was once a large bedroom in a house. Only one other person in with me. Has anyone ever done this? How did it work for you? Thanks!


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## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

I did the prevention program here: https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/4_7/features/Separation-Anxiety-Behaviors_5374-1.html
I've only had Migo for a week now, but he hardly peeps when we leave the house (sometimes for 3-4 hours). It took him a few days to learn to play by himself in his pen and at first he barked for attention when he knew I was home. Because he's not house trained yet I try to supervise him as much as possible.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

catlady said:


> Can I expect for training? I was supposed to be leaving my part time job in June the week after we pick up Scarlett. Due to many issues I have been asked to stay a little longer and have been given permission to bring her to work with me. I haven't had a puppy for probably 25 years so I don't remember the time commitment necessary for proper training. I'm ready to go in today and tell them they HAVE to hire a temporary person so I can come in only as needed. I do not want to confuse the puppy either. She will be home with me for a full week after we bring her home. I'll bring the crate with me. She will be able to play in my office which was once a large bedroom in a house. Only one other person in with me. Has anyone ever done this? How did it work for you? Thanks!


I assume you are talking about potty training here? because "training" in general, even if you just want good house and walking manners takes a good year for most dogs. Kodi is 8 and is not finished with his training... He'll be training until he retires! 

As far as potty training is concerned, you have to figure a MINIMUM of 4-6 months before they are reliable in a relatively confined space. And for the first 4 months, you have to commit to EYES ON supervision whenever they are not confined to either their crate or ex-pen. You van't expect not to have accidents the puppy is wandering around your office while you try to work.

That said, I work from home, and couldn't dedicate several months to JUST potty training weather. Few people can. So I set up an ex-pen in my office, with a litter box, toys and water. While I was really working, the puppy stayed in the pen. Every couple of hours, I'd take the puppy out to potty, then play or train for a while, then back in the pen again while I worked. I strongly believe in an indoor potty option for toy breed dogs. But other people prefer outdoors only, and of course that can be done too, but it's more work. I think that if you will need to leave your puppy/dog for any length of time or if you live in a part of the country with bad weather at times., an indoor potty is a HUGE advantage. And they ALL learn to go outside too, without any real help from their humans. Most of us find that the hard part is maintaining their willingness to use the indoor potty if you don't work on it!

The most important thing, no matter whether you will be using an indoor potty or not, is to confine the puppy to a space that is small enough that they won't have an accident when you can't give them EYES ON supervision, and then when you have them out, NEVER TAKE YOUR EYES OFF THEM. The whole "trick" to potty training is to teach them where it is OK to potty, and prevent them from having the chance to potty anywhere else!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

if done properly you could have her trained in a couple of months . If you boss is flexible lol. It takes a little longer if you can't be with her.


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## Scarlett's mom (Feb 14, 2017)

Thanks all. I guess I was thinking how much time to work with her each day. I was hoping to spend less than 4 hours 2 or 3 days a week at work. I read that puppies need to go out every two hours. I do plan on using pee pads as well as outside. I may leave her home if I know it will be a shorter time period. Less stuff to pack up all the time. I'm about 15 minutes from home so I can go back if need be. I also got a nanny cam to keep an eye on things. All of this was pretty unexpected since I gave my notice in January so that's why I'm asking. Put my deposit on Scarlett in February. I like to have my ducks in a row so this is throwing a wrench into my plans  Thank you again for all your responses. I'm hoping to be totally out of there by the end of August.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

catlady said:


> Thanks all. I guess I was thinking how much time to work with her each day. I was hoping to spend less than 4 hours 2 or 3 days a week at work. I read that puppies need to go out every two hours. I do plan on using pee pads as well as outside. I may leave her home if I know it will be a shorter time period. Less stuff to pack up all the time. I'm about 15 minutes from home so I can go back if need be. I also got a nanny cam to keep an eye on things. All of this was pretty unexpected since I gave my notice in January so that's why I'm asking. Put my deposit on Scarlett in February. I like to have my ducks in a row so this is throwing a wrench into my plans  Thank you again for all your responses. I'm hoping to be totally out of there by the end of August.


It is actually GOOD for you not to be with the puppy 24/7. It is really important fro them to learn to be independent at times. It sounds like you will be able to work it out... It will just take a bit more juggling than you planned! 

Incidentally, I would strongly recommend something like a UgoDog tray (which holds pee pads or wood pellets) rather than just pee pads. Havanese are notorious paper chewers, and more than a few people come home to some awful messes when the puppy decides to destroy the (used) pee pads. Better that they are pinned down and out of harm's way!


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## Scarlett's mom (Feb 14, 2017)

krandall said:


> It is actually GOOD for you not to be with the puppy 24/7. It is really important fro them to learn to be independent at times. It sounds like you will be able to work it out... It will just take a bit more juggling than you planned!
> 
> Incidentally, I would strongly recommend something like a UgoDog tray (which holds pee pads or wood pellets) rather than just pee pads. Havanese are notorious paper chewers, and more than a few people come home to some awful messes when the puppy decides to destroy the (used) pee pads. Better that they are pinned down and out of harm's way!


UGODOG tray ordered! Thanks!


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## abi38 (Mar 23, 2017)

I am not sure I am a fan of the indoor potty training. Zelda (the first dog) would pee in the tray, but always miss the poop. It eventually become poop in that general area of the room. Since it is not a room we frequent it is not caught on the spot ever. Since one dog does it or maybe it's the proximity smell of the tray, the other 2 dogs would also decide that's also the "toilet" area of the house. I tried to use ex-pen fence off the area, but they just poop right next to the pen instead.
I literally just washed the carpet this weekend and did a thorough cleaning, and fence the entire room off to keep dogs from entering it at all. I am hoping a few months MAYBE they'd forget about using that area as a toilet.

This was my first (and last) attempt to indoor potty train a dog. Maybe I did something wrong, but it was not that great of an idea to me.

If there's 1 complain I have with my dogs is potty training. They are just not trustworthy enough to be given the whole house access for longer length of time. They are crated at night and crated when we are not home. Otherwise I'd baby gate them in whatever room I am in, which they are good when they are relatively confined.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

abi38 said:


> I am not sure I am a fan of the indoor potty training. Zelda (the first dog) would pee in the tray, but always miss the poop. It eventually become poop in that general area of the room. Since it is not a room we frequent it is not caught on the spot ever. Since one dog does it or maybe it's the proximity smell of the tray, the other 2 dogs would also decide that's also the "toilet" area of the house. I tried to use ex-pen fence off the area, but they just poop right next to the pen instead.
> I literally just washed the carpet this weekend and did a thorough cleaning, and fence the entire room off to keep dogs from entering it at all. I am hoping a few months MAYBE they'd forget about using that area as a toilet.
> 
> This was my first (and last) attempt to indoor potty train a dog. Maybe I did something wrong, but it was not that great of an idea to me.
> ...


Well, the problem is, you can't just have a potty in an out of the way place and expect that it will "just happen" the way it's supposed to... at least not until the dog is FULLY trained. And if there are more than one, ESPECIALLY if they were puppies at the same time, like your two, training is even harder. At this point, because they have been allowed to potty other places in that room, they DO think that the whole room is an appropriate potty area. And with some justification... They have never been fully taught that it's the UgoDog that is the potty, and NOT the other parts of the room. They have clearly developed the habit, and once that becomes established, it can take a long, LOG time ad a LOT of positive re-training (not just keeping them out of the room) to teach them that that room is not "the potty spot". I hate to say this, but for an established behavior, a few months is very likely not going to be enough to make them "forget". Potty training is an eyes-on activity. If you can't keep your eye ACTIVELY on the dog (or puppy) to ACTIVELY intervene and direct them to an appropriate potty spot, it won't work. (as you've found) And when you CAN'T have eyes on, they need to be confined to a small enough area that they can be successful.

I don't think this is an "indoor" vs. "outdoor" issue. It sounds like the dogs are not reliably trained to go either place yet. It absolutely does take concerned effort, but to me, its worth it!

Oh, and as far as confining them when you aren't home is concerned, I DEFINITELY do that too, even though mine are reliably potty trained. They may be reliable about not peeing or pooping in the house, but you never know what a bored, lonely dog is going to get into. I want mine in a space where I KNOW they are safe. They get gated in my office, with a litter box, their water bottle and some chews when we are not home. They rarely use the office litter box, but it's there if they need it.


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## abi38 (Mar 23, 2017)

krandall said:


> Well, the problem is, you can't just have a potty in an out of the way place and expect that it will "just happen" the way it's supposed to... at least not until the dog is FULLY trained. And if there are more than one, ESPECIALLY if they were puppies at the same time, like your two, training is even harder. At this point, because they have been allowed to potty other places in that room, they DO think that the whole room is an appropriate potty area. And with some justification... They have never been fully taught that it's the UgoDog that is the potty, and NOT the other parts of the room. They have clearly developed the habit, and once that becomes established, it can take a long, LOG time ad a LOT of positive re-training (not just keeping them out of the room) to teach them that that room is not "the potty spot". I hate to say this, but for an established behavior, a few months is very likely not going to be enough to make them "forget". Potty training is an eyes-on activity. If you can't keep your eye ACTIVELY on the dog (or puppy) to ACTIVELY intervene and direct them to an appropriate potty spot, it won't work. (as you've found) And when you CAN'T have eyes on, they need to be confined to a small enough area that they can be successful.
> 
> I don't think this is an "indoor" vs. "outdoor" issue. It sounds like the dogs are not reliably trained to go either place yet. It absolutely does take concerned effort, but to me, its worth it!
> 
> Oh, and as far as confining them when you aren't home is concerned, I DEFINITELY do that too, even though mine are reliably potty trained. They may be reliable about not peeing or pooping in the house, but you never know what a bored, lonely dog is going to get into. I want mine in a space where I KNOW they are safe. They get gated in my office, with a litter box, their water bottle and some chews when we are not home. They rarely use the office litter box, but it's there if they need it.


I am pretty sure I didn't do it right this time. I was able to outdoor potty train a pom 16 years ago 

My original plan was an indoor/outdoor training. Outdoor most of the time but indoor place to go if the dogs needs to go inbetween letting out. Maybe that was a bad plan to begin with. Indoor was a very frustrating experience. It was difficult to keep the dog on that small ugodog pad the entire time until it went. I don't know how it was supposed to be done, but I used a leash while I stand there. The dogs were not pleased having a tiny short leash keeping them within a 1'x2" area. It wasn't as bad for Zelda because she is good at "going". It was hell on Link. He naturally has a bladder of steel even as a tiny puppy. So much so that he does not "go" when you let him out (Zelda ALWAYS pee immediately whenever she is let out). He seems to only go when he really needs to, even now, which is usually hours apart. More frequent letting out and he'd produce nothing even if I wait a long time. So it was extremely difficult to get Link to pee on the pad, he wouldn't even pee after a night's sleep and would just held it while we were standing there for 10-15 minutes. I pretty much gave up after a few weeks with Link. For pooping it is ever worse to keep the dogs in that tiny area since they want to move around even more. Another thing that MAY have added to the difficulty at the time. I had my geriatric Pom there also. He was incontinent by then and was living in a fenced off corner in the room completely lined with pee pads, so the room always smelled like a bathroom to the dogs I am guessing.

So I had been reinforcing their outdoor potty breaks ever since. I let them out every hour or so when I am home. They get a click and treat when they do their business outside. I still can't get Link to pee when he doesn't think he needs to however, but when he does he goes like a horse and would stand still for a half minute :


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## Genie1000 (Apr 13, 2017)

May I ask a question? Penelope is doing quite well training us to take her outside for poop. She has not pooped inside for a very long time. She also sleeps in a crate in our room through the night now and pees and poops outside.
We like the idea of indoor potty because we trAvel and want to bring her with us. We are unsuccessful in getting her to realize the ugodog is where to go inside.
Is there a step by step process that you all can direct me to? She's a speedy pee-er and by the tone we realize she's squashing, she's done.
I'll take a picture of our setup later and I'm very open to suggestions.
She's really doing great with outdoor pottying... even the pee pee... but I'm not sure how to get her to realize ugodog is the place to go. She used to go on pee lads but she shreds and plays with them. We got the ugodog a couple of weeks after her arrival and she loves to lay on it, but never potties on it


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

abi38 said:


> I am pretty sure I didn't do it right this time. I was able to outdoor potty train a pom 16 years ago
> 
> My original plan was an indoor/outdoor training. Outdoor most of the time but indoor place to go if the dogs needs to go inbetween letting out. Maybe that was a bad plan to begin with. Indoor was a very frustrating experience. It was difficult to keep the dog on that small ugodog pad the entire time until it went. I don't know how it was supposed to be done, but I used a leash while I stand there. The dogs were not pleased having a tiny short leash keeping them within a 1'x2" area. It wasn't as bad for Zelda because she is good at "going". It was hell on Link. He naturally has a bladder of steel even as a tiny puppy. So much so that he does not "go" when you let him out (Zelda ALWAYS pee immediately whenever she is let out). He seems to only go when he really needs to, even now, which is usually hours apart. More frequent letting out and he'd produce nothing even if I wait a long time. So it was extremely difficult to get Link to pee on the pad, he wouldn't even pee after a night's sleep and would just held it while we were standing there for 10-15 minutes. I pretty much gave up after a few weeks with Link. For pooping it is ever worse to keep the dogs in that tiny area since they want to move around even more. Another thing that MAY have added to the difficulty at the time. I had my geriatric Pom there also. He was incontinent by then and was living in a fenced off corner in the room completely lined with pee pads, so the room always smelled like a bathroom to the dogs I am guessing.
> 
> So I had been reinforcing their outdoor potty breaks ever since. I let them out every hour or so when I am home. They get a click and treat when they do their business outside. I still can't get Link to pee when he doesn't think he needs to however, but when he does he goes like a horse and would stand still for a half minute


Well, for starters, it depends a LOT on what the breeder does. All three of mine came from breeders who worked really hard on litter box training their puppies from the time they first crawled out of the whelping box. (about 3 weeks) So mine totally understood what a litter box or UgoDog was for by the time they came home. That doesn't mean they wouldn't have an accident if they were too far from the litter box when the urge hit! BUT I could leave them shut in an ex-pen with a litter box and be absolutely CERTAIN that they would always use it if they needed to go. There was no reason for me to need to "hold them on it. They would seek it out. My job was to watch them like a hawk when they were anyplace other than outdoors or in the ex-pen.

It IS possible to train a dog or puppy to a UgoDog or litter box if they haven't been exposed to it as a baby puppy, but it requires that the dog be kept in a folded-down ex-pen with ONLY room for a bed (preferably raised above floor level) and the UgoDog or litter box. So the ONLY option to not soil the bed is to use the box. When they are reliably using the box, you increase the size of the ex-pen slowly. When they are reliable in the whole ex-pen, you increase their space to ONE room with an easily cleaned fool. Then you add one more room, etc. as they show the ability to always use the box even with more space.

And yes, it would be almost impossible, I think, to train a puppy to only go ANYWHERE (litter box, UgoDog or outside!) when there is an older dog eliminating inappropriately in the house. That's a set-up for failure.


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## abi38 (Mar 23, 2017)

krandall said:


> Well, for starters, it depends a LOT on what the breeder does. All three of mine came from breeders who worked really hard on litter box training their puppies from the time they first crawled out of the whelping box. (about 3 weeks) So mine totally understood what a litter box or UgoDog was for by the time they came home. That doesn't mean they wouldn't have an accident if they were too far from the litter box when the urge hit! BUT I could leave them shut in an ex-pen with a litter box and be absolutely CERTAIN that they would always use it if they needed to go. There was no reason for me to need to "hold them on it. They would seek it out. My job was to watch them like a hawk when they were anyplace other than outdoors or in the ex-pen.
> 
> It IS possible to train a dog or puppy to a UgoDog or litter box if they haven't been exposed to it as a baby puppy, but it requires that the dog be kept in a folded-down ex-pen with ONLY room for a bed (preferably raised above floor level) and the UgoDog or litter box. So the ONLY option to not soil the bed is to use the box. When they are reliably using the box, you increase the size of the ex-pen slowly. When they are reliable in the whole ex-pen, you increase their space to ONE room with an easily cleaned fool. Then you add one more room, etc. as they show the ability to always use the box even with more space.
> 
> And yes, it would be almost impossible, I think, to train a puppy to only go ANYWHERE (litter box, UgoDog or outside!) when there is an older dog eliminating inappropriately in the house. That's a set-up for failure.


So they actually can keep their little butt over the Ugopad while pooping? Wow. Zelda was the only one indoor potty train that psuedo worked. She will pee on the Ugopad like a champ, but even with all 4 feet on the pad her poop would still get aimed outside of the pad sometimes. It's just hard for her to stay completely on the pad while she's circling getting into position to poop.

I think I'll stick with outdoor next time. It was easier  Hopefully for the next puppy I won't have an incontinent dog in the house at the same time.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

abi38 said:


> So they actually can keep their little butt over the Ugopad while pooping? Wow. Zelda was the only one indoor potty train that psuedo worked. She will pee on the Ugopad like a champ, but even with all 4 feet on the pad her poop would still get aimed outside of the pad sometimes. It's just hard for her to stay completely on the pad while she's circling getting into position to poop.
> 
> I think I'll stick with outdoor next time. It was easier  Hopefully for the next puppy I won't have an incontinent dog in the house at the same time.


Well, yes. They ALL can hit the UgoDog if they need to... Even Kodi who is at the VERY top of the size range for Havanese.  That said, when he was a puppy, we did have a bit of a problem with his "potty dance" taking him on and off the litter box, so occasionally he'd miss. When I realized what was happening, I just got a bigger litter box... problem solved. Once he COULD do the entire "potty dance circle" inside the litter box, he never missed again. We didn't have a UgoDog in those days, and the brand that makes the bigger boxes is no longer sold in the U.S. (though you might take a look for a used one on E-Bay... Sounds like you need to do SOMETHING to solve your present problems!... It's called the "Rascal Dog", and sometimes you can find them) If I were faced with that problem now, and didn't have my Rascal Dogs, I'd get two UgoDogs and put them right beside each other to make a bigger surface. But both of my girls have no problem at all staying on the UgoDog. (I think there are two sizes, and we have the larger one)

Believe me, it isn't that you had an indoor potty that has made training those two harder. It was either the incontinent dog, or the fact that you had two puppies at once, (either of those would make thing exponentially harder... two at once and it sounds almost impossible!!!) OR that they weren't confined and supervised closely enough. We have seen, time and time again, that toy dogs that also have an indoor potty option train faster, with fewer mistakes... and they ALL learn to go outside without difficulty. Potty training is a binary training function. You need to teach there are "potty spots" and that EVERYTHING else is a "non-potty spot". Having an indoor option doesn't interrupt that learning or make it harder... It just gives the dog a chance to be right if you either miss their signals or if you need to be out of the house longer than they can comfortably hold it.

Pam and Tom King have potty trained more dogs than anyone I know... Many more dogs then most people own in a life time. They say that with the Havanese that they have bred, the people who have the most accidents are those that insist on "outside only". ...And I don't know where you live, but I live in the "Frozen North", otherwise known as New England. There are times that snow is so deep that my dogs can't get out the back door until we get shoveled out, and other times when there is driving rain and hurricane force winds. I LOVE being able to tell my dogs, "Sorry, you can't go out... go use your potty!" I also love that when we are staying in a hotel room, they happily use the UgoDog in a corner of the bathroom, so I don't have to get up, get dressed and take them down the elevator to go pee first thing in the morning AND don't have to worry about whether they can "hold it" until I can get them down there. IMO, being able to use an indoor potty, even if it's not their first choice (and it never is) is SUCH a perk of having a toy breed!!! 

BTW, this is a photo of Panda when she needed "puppy jail" to reinforce use of the UgODog after she had a UTI. You can see that the ex-pen had been reduced to 1x1 panels, with JUST enough room for her bed, water dish and the UgoDog. I didn't have to worry about her peeing on the bed. If there is a possibility that the puppy might do that, raising the bed up off floor-level often makes it clear to them that this is "bed", not "potty".


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## Genie1000 (Apr 13, 2017)

Thanks for the picture of your set up! I think we need to make Penelope's pen smaller for now


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## abi38 (Mar 23, 2017)

krandall said:


> Well, yes. They ALL can hit the UgoDog if they need to... Even Kodi who is at the VERY top of the size range for Havanese.  That said, when he was a puppy, we did have a bit of a problem with his "potty dance" taking him on and off the litter box, so occasionally he'd miss. When I realized what was happening, I just got a bigger litter box... problem solved. Once he COULD do the entire "potty dance circle" inside the litter box, he never missed again. We didn't have a UgoDog in those days, and the brand that makes the bigger boxes is no longer sold in the U.S. (though you might take a look for a used one on E-Bay... Sounds like you need to do SOMETHING to solve your present problems!... It's called the "Rascal Dog", and sometimes you can find them) If I were faced with that problem now, and didn't have my Rascal Dogs, I'd get two UgoDogs and put them right beside each other to make a bigger surface. But both of my girls have no problem at all staying on the UgoDog. (I think there are two sizes, and we have the larger one)
> 
> Believe me, it isn't that you had an indoor potty that has made training those two harder. It was either the incontinent dog, or the fact that you had two puppies at once, (either of those would make thing exponentially harder... two at once and it sounds almost impossible!!!) OR that they weren't confined and supervised closely enough. We have seen, time and time again, that toy dogs that also have an indoor potty option train faster, with fewer mistakes... and they ALL learn to go outside without difficulty. Potty training is a binary training function. You need to teach there are "potty spots" and that EVERYTHING else is a "non-potty spot". Having an indoor option doesn't interrupt that learning or make it harder... It just gives the dog a chance to be right if you either miss their signals or if you need to be out of the house longer than they can comfortably hold it.
> 
> ...


Zelda was almost 1.5 when I got Link. She as good when she was alone (besides missing the pad with poop), it's Link that start to have more trouble (and a mini schnauzer that belong to my dad that is worse and spend half time at my house). Leaving the pad out with the smell and not trained dogs seemed to only invite problem.

I live in WA state. While they don't like the rainy weather I just chase then out anyway and they'd still do their business. They are not horrid at this point, with occasion stealth poop and even rarer pee. With no free rein in the house for long period they are pretty good. They never do it anywhere else so hopefully blocking off the entire room would further disincentives them. They can run around the house fresh after potty, and when I settle in a room I just lock them in with me. Otherwise they usually following me around anyway. I'll say I am impressed, they have been able to take an elevator to go potty when we stayed at a hotel last time. Zelda is also pad trained so I have used pads in airport restrooms for her. Link would just hold it usually.

So they dogs basically trained itself simply by locking with nowhere to go but the pad? No "reward" necessary? Do you let it out after it does its business? How can you tell? How long does the "lock-in" take if I were to start now?

Thanks for all the tips.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Genie1000 said:


> Thanks for the picture of your set up! I think we need to make Penelope's pen smaller for now


As small as it needs to be to make her successful!!!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

The time required is dependent on the ability of the puppy, and the ability of the trainer. Beyond that, it takes the amount of time that it takes. There is no set schedule that can be fitted to a clock. 

Good luck. I expect it will work out.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

abi38 said:


> Zelda was almost 1.5 when I got Link. She as good when she was alone (besides missing the pad with poop), it's Link that start to have more trouble (and a mini schnauzer that belong to my dad that is worse and spend half time at my house). Leaving the pad out with the smell and not trained dogs seemed to only invite problem.
> 
> I live in WA state. While they don't like the rainy weather I just chase then out anyway and they'd still do their business. They are not horrid at this point, with occasion stealth poop and even rarer pee. With no free rein in the house for long period they are pretty good. They never do it anywhere else so hopefully blocking off the entire room would further disincentives them. They can run around the house fresh after potty, and when I settle in a room I just lock them in with me. Otherwise they usually following me around anyway. I'll say I am impressed, they have been able to take an elevator to go potty when we stayed at a hotel last time. Zelda is also pad trained so I have used pads in airport restrooms for her. Link would just hold it usually.
> 
> ...


Well, you can't (humanely) leave a puppy (or dog) locked up all the time. The idea of the ex-pen is that that is where they are when you can't give them EYES ON supervision. They don't train themselves, it just gives them a correct place to go when you can't be watching them and getting them out when they need to go. The training still has to be done by the owner, during the time that they can closely supervise. (that means with eyes on them, paying complete attention to the dog, not watching TV, working on the computer or cooking dinner)


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## abi38 (Mar 23, 2017)

krandall said:


> Well, you can't (humanely) leave a puppy (or dog) locked up all the time. The idea of the ex-pen is that that is where they are when you can't give them EYES ON supervision. They don't train themselves, it just gives them a correct place to go when you can't be watching them and getting them out when they need to go. The training still has to be done by the owner, during the time that they can closely supervise. (that means with eyes on them, paying complete attention to the dog, not watching TV, working on the computer or cooking dinner)


OK. I had a very similar setup when they were young puppies while I was not around.
So that's my confusion, you'd still need to "train". So what are the steps?

With Zelda once she was older (ie crate overnight without accident) I'd take her to the UGodog on a short short leash to keep her on the pad. Repeating "go potty" and encourage her to go. When she does she gets LOTS of praises and a treat. She did pretty good, except the missing the pad while pooping part.

But it all fell apart with Link. He hated the short leash so much that he'd rather hold his pee, even if it is the first pee in the morning. (By that time he will go pee outside in the morning). After standing there for 15 minutes I stopped, put him back in the crate. Leave him there for 30 minutes and take him out and try again. Each time it'd fail. after a few hours of this he'd eventually peed in the crate instead. After a couple times of actually peeing in the crate, and all other times of me giving up and just take him outside, I gave up indoor potty training Link.

I left the Ugodog out, but I think with Link doesn't know to use it, he ended up just using the proximity area instead once in a while. Everything just went downhill from there.

I know with Link I'll never try indoor again. He just is that way with pee, even now going outside he'd not always go. He is the only dog I have had that is this way. All other dogs I had would always pee right after we go outside. With Link if it hasn't been at least 3-4 hours he wouldn't even pee at all. Even when I know he needs to (first morning pee or after I came home from work) he'd still take his own sweet time.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

abi38 said:


> OK. I had a very similar setup when they were young puppies while I was not around.
> So that's my confusion, you'd still need to "train". So what are the steps?
> 
> With Zelda once she was older (ie crate overnight without accident) I'd take her to the UGodog on a short short leash to keep her on the pad. Repeating "go potty" and encourage her to go. When she does she gets LOTS of praises and a treat. She did pretty good, except the missing the pad while pooping part.
> ...


As I said, it's not a matter of HOLDING them on the potty. I never EVER did that! I would think that would be terribly aversive, and CONVINCE the dog that they didn't want to be there for any reason! It's a matter of watching like a hawk, and when you see signs that they need to go... on THEIR schedule, not yours... scooping them up and getting them to the potty. Then praise, praise, praise (and cookies) for getting it right...even if it was with your help! I think, besides trying to hold them there, your biggest mistake was just stopping the confinement when they were clearly still having mistakes. I wouldn't increase the space the puppy had until they were errorless for AT LEAST a few weeks. Then if there was ONE mistake, I'd go back to the size area where they were successful again for a good long time.

But training adult dogs is much harder.


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## abi38 (Mar 23, 2017)

krandall said:


> As ai said, it's not a matter of HOLDING them on the potty. I never EVER did that! I would think that would be terribly aversive, and CONVINCE the dog that they didn't want to be there for any reason! It's a matter of watching like a hawk, and when you see signs that they need to go... on THEIR schedule, not yours... scooping them up and getting them to the potty. Then praise, praise, praise (and cookies) for getting it right...even if it was with your help! I think, besides trying to hold them there, your biggest mistake was just stopping the confinement when they were clearly still having mistakes. I wouldn't increase the same the puppy had until they were errorless for AT LEAST a few weeks. Then if there was ONE mistake, I'd go back to the size area where they were successful again for a good long time.
> 
> But training adult dogs is much harder.


Thanks. Seems like that's the main difference. Outdoor I can "wait" them out as they are allow to wander around and almost always will go eventually, but not indoor. That's where I was confused about.

I am not confident about being able to spot the signs tho. I still remember while we are having our play time when they were puppies out of the ex-pen, they'd pee without me able to see the sign early enough to interfere (like I'd be sitting on the floor playing with them and they'd be 3 feet away and I cant jump up fast enough)

Thanks for all the tips. I'll put it to use for next puppy.


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## Jojofergy (Jun 27, 2016)

When I got sprocket I originally planned on him just using pee pads I had the same set up as krandall in that pic I also started taking sprocket out at the same time every day when I started doing that he pretty much potty trained himself lol he'd much rather poop outside than inside so he rarely poops on the pads anymore he will hold it until it's time to go out he does still pee on the pee pads while im working but when I'm home he never goes on them anymore 
I do love the pee pads it keeps the accidents contained to one spot and much easier to clean up 


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## Genie1000 (Apr 13, 2017)

Abi38, same thing here. Penelope goes outside pees what seems like a billion times, then does her poops out there and so she gets play time in the bigger room. 
Even though she seems like she should be empty, we will be sitting playing and she goes off in a blink and pees. No sniffing or circling, just walk off to a bit and wham. I'm not fast enough unless I literally hovered over her constantly.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jojofergy said:


> When I got sprocket I originally planned on him just using pee pads I had the same set up as krandall in that pic I also started taking sprocket out at the same time every day when I started doing that he pretty much potty trained himself lol he'd much rather poop outside than inside so he rarely poops on the pads anymore he will hold it until it's time to go out he does still pee on the pee pads while im working but when I'm home he never goes on them anymore
> I do love the pee pads it keeps the accidents contained to one spot and much easier to clean up
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But it's not an accident when it's on pee pads! That's something people forget! Pee Pads (or a litter tray of some kind) are approved potty spots! That's NOT an accident when a dog uses it, and they should be praised for it!!!


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## Jojofergy (Jun 27, 2016)

I do still praise him for potty pad use just not as enthusiastically as outside 
I just meant I'm glad he does it on the pee pad I like that he goes outside most of the time but have no problems with him using his pad that's what it's for I probably should not have used the word accident he's doing fantastic I fully expected him to only use the pads am very happy he chooses to go outside instead most of the time  


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jojofergy said:


> I do still praise him for potty pad use just not as enthusiastically as outside
> I just meant I'm glad he does it on the pee pad I like that he goes outside most of the time but have no problems with him using his pad that's what it's for I probably should not have used the word accident he's doing fantastic I fully expected him to only use the pads am very happy he chooses to go outside instead most of the time
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've honestly only heard of one dog EVER who would ONLY use an indoor potty. And that was a clear choice in training made by the owner. dogs figure out there outdoor piece all on their own once the weather is nice, and typically really prefer it. The way mine act with the litter boxes, I think it's very similar to my feelings about Port-a-potties... They are something I use when there is absolutely no other choice. :laugh:


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