# A free puppy?



## havaluv (Oct 15, 2007)

*I am just curious about what you guys think about this, and I apologize in advance for the length of this post!

As many of you know, Ollie is struggling terribly with allergies. He's had several rounds of antihistimines and has an appointment with the doggie dermatologist in January. I haven't added it all up, but I'm pretty sure we've hit the $1000 mark on vet bills. He also has a luxating patella on his back right leg...I don't really know how much of an issue it will turn out to be. He is 4.5 months old and still doesn't jump on or off furniture and I suspect it may be because of the patella issue. He also had giardia when we got him, which required two rounds of medication, not to mention the stress and hassle of doggie diarrhea.

From everything I've read, I gather that the patella and the allergies are both genetic. I decided to ask the breeder to help with some of the medical bills. 
I hope it's ok to post her reply. I don't believe I have mentioned the breeder's name anywhere online so hopefully it's ok.

Anyway...here is the reply:*

_As per my health guarantee of course I will replace the pup & of course let you keep him if you wish to, which is something most breeders don't do. I do not help with vet bills.

I am terribly sorry that you have had these problems, it is not something I have had in the past. The geardia I believe was caused from the water at the farm, because my pups all had it. I also had to go throught 2 rounds of meds.

When you get back here & decide if you want another pup let me know.

I am surprised that the holistic dog food Lifes abundance would be alergy related as it doesn't contain all the cemicals that other df has.

His brother has had no problems. I hear from his owner also, he lives locally._

*I'm not terribly surprised. I figured she wouldn't help with the bills, but I thought it might be worth a try and frankly, I was curious to hear her reply. I do feel that she should at the very least reimburse us for the giardia treatments. This was the first time she admitted that any of the dogs had giardia...I had gotten the "gee, none of the other dogs had this problem" response before. I'm not sure how I feel about it, she seems very nice on the one hand, but then again, I really feel these are hereditary issues so how is it that these problems never came up before? I am tempted by the free puppy offer (although I think DH would kill me) but if it turned out to have all the same problems, it would be far from free. 

I'm interested to hear your opinions and comments.*

And just to thank you guys for reading this looong post...here are two new pics of Ollie. One in his new jacket from Petsmart - on sale for $6.00! :whoo:
The other showing the trim I gave him this week since he had scratched off half his hair anyway!


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Oh Shelly! :grouphug:

Honey, I hope she would atleast pick up the giardia if that is something that happened at her house w/ her other pups too, heck..If I was her, I would! It sounds like she's blaming you a bit for the allergies, for choosing the wrong food.  Not good. Have you tried just plain boiled chicken and rice for Ollie? Like a detox diet, and then work from there figuring out what he can eat? I know that's not exactly convenient or easy, but it sounds like he's not getting better on the new food 

And the luxating patella? I'm not sure if that's always genetic or not, maybe the breeders here can answer that.....but yikes  I would be leary of getting another a puppy from her and ending up with another $1000 in a few months of vet-bills. Especially, if it has one or both of the same parents.

She didnt' seem to address the hip dysplasia? Wonder why? 

BUT..I can certainly see your disappointment, I was just saying yesterday that even though Gucci's breeder didn't do things like she should've, that I've been lucky that she's been so healthy (*knock on wood*) and yes, I'd be disappointed w/ a puppy that had to be in and out of the vet or require surgery w/in the first 6 months. Are they suggesting surgery for Ollie's hip yet? 

Hugs,
Kara


----------



## Judy A (Jan 13, 2007)

Shelly,
I'm not sure about what your contract says, but I would think she should at least pay for the giardia since Ollie came with it. For the other issues, she is offering another dog, but I don't think helping with the vet bills usually done. 
I understand the cost of allergies....our 10 year old lab has had them all her life. We have her on a new medicine that costs $100 to $150 a month!! You might look into it...for a small dog, the cost wouldn't be bad. It's called Atopica and we are giving Kai Ketoconazole along with it so cut the Atopica dose in half as it's so expensive for a large dog. Kai is 95 lbs...
We've had Kai to the University of IL vet school four times....very expensive, but very informative...
I'm not sure what to tell you about getting another dog....that doesn't solve you problem right now....maybe taking care of Ollie is what you need to do for right now and then sometime in the future, you could get another one. Does your breeder do all the necessary testing, etc? I'd be sure of that before I'd get another one, though.


----------



## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Shelly, I certainly freel for you with regard to this. I too agree that she should pay for the giardia since she admitted that it came from her farm. but then again how can you force her to do it, without the contract backing you up. 
I know that so many dogs on the forum have allergies, and I think it seems to be a hit or miss to find the right treatment. I think the best and ONLY question you need to ask yourself is - have you fallen in LOVE? If so, could you ever give him back?? That is if she is talking about an exchange.
If she is willing to give you another one outright for free - that smells VERY fishy to me, as if she knows all her pups have problems and she got caught by you.


----------



## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

*So sorry...*

but wanted to say that Ollie is precious. And he's so lucky to have you!


----------



## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

at first I thought you were giving away Ollie, got excited at first 'cause he is adorable and I wanted him...and then was relieved. He is lucky to have found you. I think most breeders offer free puppies instead of help with medical costs. As many breeders here have said you barely make ends meet selling the pups. I think that she would let you keep Ollie too is actually very generous (as far as the business goes.) 

I am sorry about your expenses. I don't know about the luxating patella-- but I would try the chicken and rice or even beef and rice for allergies. I found with Jasper that if I found food for him without Flax he did much better. Now at almost 2 years he is hardly itchy at all. 

Jasper didn't jump up or down off furniture until he was 8 months old!!! one day we came home and he was just sitting on a chair. Havs are not supposed to be allowed to jump (yeah right) until their growth plates close and that is about 1.5 years. So Ollie's not jumping is actually protecting his joints.


----------



## Judy A (Jan 13, 2007)

I didn't mention that Izzy didn't jump up or down from furniture for a long time. She rarely jumps off of our bed now. She won't go down our basement steps either...never has. She is a year old.....


----------



## casperkeep (May 16, 2007)

I hope things will work out for you....Ollie is very cute...like the picture of him in his new coat!!!


----------



## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

Kind of off topic, but I first have to confirm that the new coat came from Petsmart? He is so cute and I love the coat. Brady has a very similar one from Petco last year that is our favorite coat for him. Guess I may have to go shop at Petsmart today.:focus:

I am not surprised by your breeder's replay, although disappointed for you that she would not help with any of the bills. Especially after she admits that he got the giardia with her. 

As for the allergies, my vet thinks Brady has allergies. He is not overly itchy, but just had an ear infection and has a rash on his belly in the past. My vet wants me to eliminate everything from his diet but kibble. I can't get my DH to do this, but if you haven't tried it, perhaps you want to go that route. They you can introduce new items again and tell what is causing the allergies.


----------



## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

Is she offering you a free puppy in addition to Ollie or is she just offering you a puppy to replace Ollie if you return Ollie to her? 

I am sorry that you and Ollie are suffering with allergies. I guess I have missed the symptoms poor Ollie is having. There is an elimination diet you can try to determine what the allergies are if you believe them to be food related. 

Regarding jumping on or off furniture, Brutus did not do until about 9 months although he was able to go over an expen when I wasn't around. Now his verticle leap is close to any pro basketball player. My son wants to buy him his own hoop and ball so he can slam dunk.

Good luck to you. Second puppies can be a lot of fun!


----------



## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Shelly,
I hate hearing stories like this. I feel so bad for you and Ollie. I found that good breeders will pay you back up to what you paid for the pup. I found a lot of bad breeders will claim they never had any health problems in their line. I always see that as a red flag. We are dealing with a living breathing animal and there are bound to be health issues from time to time, even with the best most cautious breeders. I understand how you feel and the tough decision ahead of you, but feel another pup from this breeder might have the same problems. Good luck with what ever you decide! Ollie is precious!


----------



## Tritia (Nov 17, 2007)

I'm also sorry your little one is having such a hard time. My cousin's dog has had a life long problem allergies, and they've never really been able to get a handle on it. 

I read her response as an offer to REPLACE Ollie..or, let you keep him. I didn't see where she was just offering to give you another puppy. I'd also be very tempted. But, like you said. What if it suffered similiar problems??

Oh, and Cooper didn't jump on furniture till about 8, 9 months.


----------



## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Sorry about the allergy problems with Ollie. It can be very :frusty: until you can find out what it is. I would agree with feeding home cooked, but maybe avoid chicken. I read that some dogs are highly allergic to it. 

As for the giardia, if you have a contract to back it up, I would send her the vet bills along with a copy of the reply stating he got it from her farm. 

I had a German Shep with hip dysplasia that we knew about from day one. It never gave him a problem until he was about 15 yrs old. Then he would have some trouble getting up. My two Havs will not go down my basement stairs and Shelby will not jump on or off my bed. 

Ollie is so cute, I'm sure you are in love with him.


----------



## elregalohavanese (Jun 20, 2007)

*allergy*

I would also stay away from chicken. One of our girls is allergic and breaks out in a rash all over. This did not start until she was a year old. We eliminated foods one at a time and luckily found out quickly it was the chicken. She eats the purina pro selects lamb and oatmeal and does not scratch or break out anymore. She is 2 1/2 years old and does not go up and down stairs nor does she jump on the furniture. Our others do but she does not and she does not have an problems with her legs. Susan


----------



## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Did your contract have a 3-10 day health guarantee to be free of contagious diseases? If so, send her a letter asking for payment for the giardia treatment.

As for the allergies, has he been tested to find out if it is from outside sources or from foods? Do you know what is causing it? If your vet knows how to do elimination diets, then ask for help on that, but the first thing you will be told is to get away from chicken and probably beef, as well as other common carbs. You'll need to monitor his food intake very carefully for 8 weeks or more. I have more info on this, and I know Jane does too.

Not sure where the hip dysplasia comments are coming from, but a luxating patella can cost a bit for surgery. You might want to check into the costs before you add a second dog that could also end up in the same boat. What were the patella results on both parents? The sticky wicket is that not all patella problems are congenital - to my knowledge. I believe there are some caused by injury, although a strong patella should be able to withstand puppyhood.

I'm sorry for way things have worked out. 

I have a straight question for you: If you aren't happy with the way the breeder handles things, do you want to continue the relationship and add another dog from her that could be the same or worse? Don't answer that here. That's just what crossed my mind.


----------



## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Please read this on Tollden Farms website http://www.tolldenfarms.ca/testimonials.htm about a testomonial of another dog that had allergies and what the transition to raw food did for this dog. It's quite amazing and I think this would definitely be worth a try if it means for a healthy quality of life for the little guy.


----------



## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Shelly,
I think you've been given some great advice and comments already. Just wanted to add that Ollie looks so super cute on those pics!
Pablo had a slight, barely detectable subluxation of one patella, that has already improved MUCH with exercise. In some cases (e.g. Pablo's) if there's only minimal luxation (=subluxation), the dogs muscles get stronger with exercise and therefore are able to support the patella better. I'm sure our new Vet won't even be ab;e to detect any problems with his patella at the next visit.
All this, just to tell you, it highly depends on the grade of patellar luxation whether Ollie will eventually need surgery or not.
Also, Kara, I believe you got the patella (=knee cap) mixed up with the hip.


----------



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

It does sounds like she is offereing to let you keep him and on top of that giving you another puppy. Her logic is that this will make you satifised but on the otherhand, then you might have another dog with severe allergies and luxating patellas (the last dog I know that had a grade 3- the vet bill was almost $2K!) so it goes to the old saying, nothing is free!

Amanda


----------



## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Shelly I'm very sorry that you are going through this! Allergies are very difficult to figure out and I can understand your frustration. The luxating patella is also something else to worry about, which sucks. I don't think the jumping on/off furniture has to do with that, though, as others here mentioned. Kubrick has JUST now started to jump on the couch by himself and he's almost 8 months old! I personally looked at it as a good thing since it was less of a chance that he would hurt himself.

I am also not that surprised by your breeder's response as it seems to be a pretty common one. I'm glad that Ollie has such a great mom to take care of him, though. He sure is a cutie!


----------



## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

wow, what an ordeal! I am so sorry to hear you are going through all of this Shelly. :grouphug: I hope you can get down to the allergies and find a food that will agree with Ollie.


----------



## Tritia (Nov 17, 2007)

K, I keep reading her letter. When I see "replace", I literally take that as a switch. But, is she really just wanting to give you another puppy? I agree with those that say they'd be worried about the same issues. That'd be twice the vet fees  
It'd be a tough call for me. I have a hard time passing up puppies. Then you add the word "free" and I'm a sucker


----------



## havaluv (Oct 15, 2007)

Hi everyone! I was up til 4:00 last night so am just getting back to all your responses. Wow! Thanks for the well wishes and ideas.

*First the allergies: * My vet here has basically just tried antihistimines for the allergies...no testing. I wasn't really satisfied with that and want to avoid the steroid route as an absolute LAST resort.

I decided to start an elimination diet for Ollie while waiting to get in to see the doggy dermatologist. (a month wait to get an appointment!) I figured that way at least we will have done part of the process before getting there. All Ollie eats now is Duck and Potato (Dick Van Patton). He has duck jerky and canned duck and potato for treats. (I roll the canned duck and potato food into little balls and freeze them to take to his puppy class and use for training). He gets nothing else at this point. It's been about a month I think...need to check it exactly on the calendar...but my book says to leave them on it 6 to 8 weeks. Around Dec 20th he was improving...hardly itching at all...then I gave him an herbal formula that is supposed to help with itching. The next day he was back to scratch, scratch, scratching all day long! :frusty: I was so mad at myself! It was either that or he got hold of some of my chihuahua's poop uke: Now I have her on the duck and potato too.

*Next: Luxating patella (not hip dysplasia)* It's a relief to know some of your doggies didn't jump much until they were older. He is very active and runs around, I see no sign of pain. I don't know how bad it is, at the time the vet said it, I didn't know to ask for a severity grade. She just said they didn't operate unless it was giving the dog problems.

*Next: Free puppy* I read her letter as she would give us another puppy, but let us keep Ollie. I think her comment that she would let us keep the pup and "most breeders won't do that" makes me think that. I would never consider giving Ollie back. I love him, he's smart and funny and has stolen my heart. Even my chihuahua who likes NO ONE likes Ollie. :hug: They have become buddies and that is priceless. I have to admit to being tempted by another puppy. It would be fun to have two, but two with all these same problems would be tough!

*Finally: Ollies new coat:* Yes! It's from Petsmart! They had an aisle near the dog toys that had lots of darling coats for this price...I bought three! They are so well made and cute. I hope the other Petsmarts have them too so everyone can stock up! 

Last! This board is filled with :angel::angel::angel::angel::angel::angel:
I love you guys!


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Whoops.

Sorry about starting the Hip Dysplasia rumor! 

I should know better than to answer posts before I have finished my second cup of coffee, apparently, I can't read. 5 am is too early for any human being to up, I tell ya.

Shelly, I'm glad to hear you are working on the elimination diet, although..even with commercial products like that, you still *may* be dealing with the allergen, since they often contain multiple ingredients besides the duck, but I really hope it works.

I can't imagine giving up my girl, either....I think its odd what your breeder said regarding keeping him, but I have quit trying to figure out people and the reasons they do the things they do. 

Kara


----------



## havaluv (Oct 15, 2007)

Kara, no problem. I need my coffee too before I am coherent! :ranger: I am a night owl anyway...I was still on the computer til an hour before you got up! 

If the duck and potato doesn't help, I will definately go home cooked for the next round (or raw). I suspect Ollie is allergic to chicken, (the main ingredient in his first dog food) but only time will tell. From what I can tell the food he is on has no additives other than vitamins, the potato, duck and duck meal. His few days of no itching makes me think I'm on the right track, but I'm hoping he'll have more and more of those types of days. I have even been limiting his time outdoors to try to keep him away from other possible allergens. I WILL get to the bottom of this if it drives me insane. 

I did notice that he does have flaxseed in this food. I know someone here mentioned that as an irritant for their dog so there's something to consider. I will have to read through all these posts multiple times to make sure I don't miss anything! So much good information.

His skin looks great, he had one hotspot on his front leg, but that seems to be going away too. Luckily he didn't pull out his fur to the skin...just broke it all to about 1/2 an inch. I wish he would let me trim his face a bit, but he really doesn't want me close to his face with scissors!


----------



## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Shelly,
I agree with you that starting Ollie on steroids is not the right approach until you know for sure what is going on. A good book that I think would help you is _*Dr. Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs and Cats*_ In this book he gives in detail how to de-tox your dogs diet to determine if it has allergies to food. Typically, dogs with allergies is due to the grain in their diet and other stuff put into commercial grade dog kibble. Allergies are not always genetic either.

Having a luxating Patella might not be genetic either. I know Kimberly asked about the testing done on the parents, that is important to know, as well as on the grandparents too before assuming it is genetic.

As for reimbursing you for the treatment of giardia, I can see how that might be hard for a breeder to do, as that is something that could be gotten after the pup left the breeders home too. However, in this case, this breeder said she had more then one puppy have it, so I think it would be nice if she helped with the cost of medication at least.

I hope it all works out for you. The cost of owning pets of any kind can get costly, even if breeders do all they can to breed the best. Thankfully you are doing all you can for your little guy and that he has such a wonderful home.


----------



## havaluv (Oct 15, 2007)

Kathy, I will go to Amazon and order that book. The one I am reading is from the Natural Vet series and is called "*The Allergy Dog*". I like the idea of natural treatments. I know those concepts have made a huge difference in my own quality of life and it makes sense for our dogs too. Thanks for the recommendation.

It is interesting to know allergies and luxating patella are not always genetic. I will ask her about the testing if just to help me decide about accepting another puppy.

*If anyone can suggest a non-threatening way to ask to see the actual results of testing she's done, it would help me a lot. I have this ridiculous fear of being offensive. *

I think it would be nice if she reimbursed for giardia since she said the whole litter had it and got it from the farm water while they were under her care, but I'm not going to push it. It's not worth wrecking the relationship or getting bent out of shape about to me. I appreciate that she is offering a puppy while letting us keep Ollie even if I probably won't take her up on it.

I was hoping she would offer to help with the bills up to the price we paid for Ollie, but I wasn't expecting it, if that makes sense. It IS a lot of money to pay for a dog and then to have enormous vet bills on top of it. I think it's not unreasonable to expect the dog to be at least parasite free even if there are unforseen medical problems out of the control of the breeder.


----------



## JanB (Oct 26, 2007)

Shelly, first of all, the pics of Ollie are adorable, he is so cute! Love his new cut AND coat 

Did the giardia show up at the first puppy vet visit? If so then check your contract; most do say they are guaranteed to be free from disease...plus she freely admitted he got it from her farm. I don't think you'd be ruining the relationship by insisting on payment if it is a contractual issue. You'd just be standing up for your rights. I think it would be wrong to not make her stand by her contract. If it's not in her contract, it should be, but there wouldn't be much you could do to make her pay. She SHOULD want to pay.

Do you have Ollie's pedigree? If so you can look up the results yourself at offa.org. If she doesn't submit results then I still don't think it's offensive to ask. Most breeders I would think would be very used to answering such questions. Or they certainly should be. You could always ask for the health testing of the parents of the free puppy she's offering you and at the same time you could say, by the way, please send the results of Ollie's parents at the same time...you know as a kind of an aside  At any rate if she's offended i would run from getting another puppy from her.

My own breeder guarantees the puppy free from disease as long as you see a vet within I think it was 8 days, not real sure on the days w/o looking it up. She also pays vet bills up to the cost of the puppy for any health problems. She also offered me a free puppy when we thought Tessa was so homesick she needed one of her playmates to be happy. But I think she went above and beyond, she's been simply wonderful to work with.

Good luck w/the allergy issue. He certainly is a cutie!


----------



## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Shelly, sounds like you're doing a great job with the elimination diet!


----------



## havaluv (Oct 15, 2007)

Thanks for the compliments, Jan! I think he is a cutie too, but of course I am biased!

He had soft stools at the first vet visit, and his parasite tests came out clean, but giardia is hard to test. When he continued to have diarrhea, the vet did more tests and made the diagnosis (It was probably still within 8 days). My contract is in Michigan, but from what I remember it was sort of vague. It required a vet visit within 3 days, which we did and said something to the affect that the puppy was warrantied against any _hereditary_ issues for one year...two years if we fed him the Life's Abundance diet. As I recall, it didn't say anything to define what _warranty_ means. I'll have to look it up when I get home which may not be until April. That at least gives me some time to think about another puppy.

She has not sent the papers yet or the pedigree although she had promised them 3 weeks ago. She said she was doing a bunch at the same time and she hadn't finished all the paperwork yet. I had forgotten until you mentioned them that I don't have them yet!



> Shelly, sounds like you're doing a great job with the elimination diet!


Thanks, Kimberly. That makes me feel better...Of course I wonder if I'm doing the right things!


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Shelly,

Don't feel guilty for questioning all this, you've had quite a lot on your plate so far with the new puppy! Most of us, don't expect to spend SOO much time at the vet, lol...I would ask for the parent's registered names. Did you ever get those? Or are they listed on the website?

PM me her website and I'll go research for ya if you'd like, I may be able find something  

You know, With Gucci...I just took the breeder's word that they were tested and xray'd and all that, and I didn't even do my research like I should've. I've been lucky so far that she hasn't had any problems and her legs are super straight, but I really just *trust* people too much sometimes, don't be afraid to ask questions, its a two way street!

I've learned SO much on this forum about the "dog world" and breeders, and most times when something is wrong, the vets tell us it is probably genetic, and the breeders tell us its not..and LOL! Who knows what to believe, but I think we just all want to 'fix' whatever the problem is for these lil' love bugs. 

hugs,
Kara


----------



## havaluv (Oct 15, 2007)

Ollie is definitely the highest maintenence dog I've ever had. It would probably have not been as difficult if we hadn't had to suddenly relocate to California for 6 months, but add that into the mix along with a new stressful job for hubby and yes, it's been a lot on my plate. Not that I'm complaining...despite it all I'm still glad we got him. 

It's like the American Express commercial: One havanese puppy - $1200....a few trips to the vet $1000....watching your uppity chihuahua and your havanese puppy wrestling and cuddling - PRICELESS. 

It makes me feel better that I wasn't the only one to take the breeders word about the testing. I don't know why I feel so squeamish about demanding proof. Oh, and Ollie's legs look very straight too. I can see them really well now that I cut all the hair off! 

I did PM you the website, Kara. You don't have to do a thing with it, but I thought I would send it just in case you knew something since you got Gucci in MI too, I think. I noticed today that she has put Ollie's Christmas photo up in her gallery.


----------



## Poornima (Jun 29, 2007)

Shelly, I loved Ollie's pictures. Ollie's soooo adorable. Cute as a button! I am sorry that you are going through some tough times with his health issues. I hope that Dr. Pitcairn's book helps you. I have found his homeopathic medicine section very helpful. Unfortunately, I couldn't use his recipes as Benji is allergic to grains. But I really liked his book and his approach. Good luck!

Wishing you all the best with Ollie! Hope you get your answers soon.


----------



## havaluv (Oct 15, 2007)

:bounce:Thanks, Poornima! I'm hoping we get it resolved soon too. I feel so sorry for him when he scratches all through the night. It must drive him crazy! I have high hopes and I'm determined to find the answer! I just have to fight the urge to try everything at once...that's my biggest lesson, I think! This is teaching me patience. At least if I have to learn a lesson, I can get some cuddles along the way.  He is being especially sweet today, following me everywhere and cuddling when I sit down. (not always they case...often he has very little interest in cuddling so I'm enjoying his mood today!) He seems to be having a good day with the itching too. I feel very hopeful on days like today!


----------



## Poornima (Jun 29, 2007)

Shelly, hang in there! With the scare of the pet food recall a few months ago, I started to try out homecooked food for Benji. He is allergic to grains, beef (in certain forms), chicken. I feed him Natural Balance Potato and Duck kibble and sprinkle it with freshly cooked duck meat, sweet potatoes and carrots. I feed them natural duck chips, jerkey for treats. My vet has asked me to limit Benji and Lizzie's exposure to too many proteins. (Benji and Lizzie have the same mother and appear to have the same allergies as their mother). In a way, it is easier to manage when both furkids suffer from similar issues. 

Good luck!


----------



## havaluv (Oct 15, 2007)

Poornima, The Natural Balance is what I feed too. Where do you get the natural duck chips?...that's one I think I've missed. I also give Dogswell Vitality Duck Jerky and just today I got in the mail a new treat...it's by FullPetential...called Doggie Dance all natural duck training bits. Ingredients are: Duck Meat, Potato Starch, Glycerin, Natural flavor, salt and gelatin....does that sound ok? I am very leary of adding anything new into the mix. 

Poornima, how long did it take you to figure out what Benji was allergic to? And how long after you stopped feeding the offending food, did it take for Benji to improve?


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I'm pretty sure I talked to your breeder when I was looking for a Hav! I'd have to look at my notes on the office computer, but I think she said something to spook me off! lol, I can't remember, but that's not Gucci's breeder.

I just wrote you up a PM and then my lovely son "reset" the router to get internet connection and I lost it! lol......kids, gotta love 'em!?!

Yah..we can't expect everything to always go 'perfectly', heck..even accidents happen that cause trips to the vet, but at the very least I'd hope she'd help w/ the giardia cost for you  That would actually be less expensive for her than giving you another puppy! lol I don't quite understand the reasoning, but oh well!

Kara


----------



## havaluv (Oct 15, 2007)

Kara, thanks for taking the time to re-send the message. Nothing more frustrating than spending time on a message and having it get lost in cyberspace!!! GRRRR!

I agree on the giardia thing, but I don't know that it's worth a fight and the energy that would entail. I'm so busy at this point and my energy has limits...gotta pick my battles! I do agree though, it seems to me it would be the right thing for her to do.


----------



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Shelly,
The commercial continues.... $2000 for the items you had to have for you havanese as recommended by the forum 

Amanda


----------



## havaluv (Oct 15, 2007)

ound:Oh yes,...today I got the thingy that holds the dryer, last week it was the hide-a-squirrel...before that the fancy shampoos....:bounce: What a sucker I am! I want all the cool toys for my baby!  You guys are a terrible influence on me!


----------



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Shelly,

I have nothing to add about the health stuff, but I can tell you that Gryff doesn't jump on the furniture either. I have steps next to the bed so he can get on. He has never jumped up on any furniture other than a small couch we have in the office. It is much lower than a normal couch.

Good luck to you and Ollie.


----------



## havaluv (Oct 15, 2007)

Ivy, that does ease my mind, actually. Thanks for telling me. Ollie will put his front legs on the furniture and kind of bounce up and down, but he doesn't ever make the full jump. Next time I go to the vet, I'm going to ask about the severity of the luxating patella, but I don't want to make special trip just for that. It makes me feel a lot better that others have havs that don't jump on the furniture either....I was a little worried.


----------



## Poornima (Jun 29, 2007)

Shelly, I get duck chips from Petsmart and duck jerkey made by Dogswell (Happy Hips) from Pet Food express. Please note that both products are from China. However, the last time I read up on Dogswell site, it claimed that they inspected their products independently as well as through FDA.

Dogswell: http://www.dogswell.com/?title=Happy+Hips

The Smokehouse brand is made in Sun Valley, CA and I couldn't get their website to load. Their number is 877-699-PETSIt is available at Petsmart.

Regarding Benji's allergies, he started to chew his paws. His breeder told me that it is one of the commom symptoms of food allergy. When I gave him rice and chicken during his teething diarrheas, he started to chew his paws with in a couple of days. I cut out rice and he stopped itching in 3-4 days. I started to give him cooked minced chicken balls mixed with sweet potato and carrots and he started chewing his paws once again. He had similar syptoms with ground beef. Thankfully, I wasn't feeding him way too many things so finding the allergen wasn't too difficult. I feed both some yogurt on a regular basis. For treats they both get sometimes Gouda cheese and bacon (just very tiny bits).

Hope this helps! Jane has more info on allergens and diets since her Lincoln has been suffering from food allergies. Good luck!


----------



## Elaine (Jan 17, 2007)

Shelly,
Poornima knew up front that Benji and Lizzy might have food allergies because there mother Tessa has always had allergies. They are managable as long as she has Duck & Potato for her main diet. Part of her puppies have also had the same problem and that is why my dogs are on the food. I want to avoid any issues from the beginning and anyone with her puppies knows about the problem. I have also had a couple of other dogs, not from this mother, that have had allergies and their owners have worked hard to elimimate any food problems. One of the dogs, they think, may have been allergic to what was in the shampoo she was using. There are several things that can cause allergies and I hope you find what works for you and it is not to expensive. As to the patella problems, Kimberly is right there is no way to know if it is genitic or not, and I have a 12 month old that does not jump on the furniture. I also have had puppies that have developed patella problems and most of them live with it just fine, a couple have had to have surgery for it and if they get bad enough I would ask for a second opinion. I had a vet tell an owner that her dog had a stage 3 on one knee and a stage 4 on the other, I knew the dog had not had issues in 4 years so we took him to my vet. One knee was absolutely perfect, we did x-rays, and the other one had a small amount of movement. He is on Glucosamine to help with any artheritis he might get and is doing fine. If I have major issues with a dog I will help with the medical bills up to the purchase price of my dogs. I can't always afford it at the time and I know some have not asked but I do the best I can for my wonderful puppy owners that take such great care of my babies. Sorry this got so long. Did Ollie have a problem before you moved to California? Where did you move to? Sorry your husband is under a lot of stress, do you think that Ollie can feel the stress in the house and maybe could contribute to his scratching? I am just trying to think of things. I agree with everyone else, if you have one with problems you might not want two with problems. You need to always check with OFA before you purchase a puppy to know what tests the parents have had. Good luck and keep us posted.


----------



## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Shelly, I'm sorry to hear about Ollie's health issues! It's hard finding which foods trigger allergic reactions, but you sound determined and I think you are doing the right things. Good luck with that! Poor little Ollie needs some relief from all that itching.

He looks sooooooo cute!!!! What a sweetie.


----------



## havaluv (Oct 15, 2007)

Elaine, no need to apologize for a long post, there is a lot of good information there. I wondered about the different vets opinions since the vet I took him to in Michigan made no mention of the luxating patella, so that made me wonder. 

Ollie had the itching from the moment he came home although the breeder said she hadn't noticed him itching. She had a lot going on and a lot of puppies so could be she just missed it. I think stress could make it worse, but I don't think it is the root cause. I think it does affect it, though, because the Rescue Remedy, which has a calming effect, seems to help him more than anything else. My hubby is hardly home so I doubt that his personal stress is causing the problem....but moving across country just a week or so after getting him probably didn't help matters. Today has been a good day...just a little scratching...I'm hoping that trend continues. 

My MIL just mentioned something to me over the phone about sand fleas. We are heading to Laguna Beach tomorrow for a week...are there sand fleas there? I was thinking I would let him play outside some since I have been keeping him in most of the time to avoid possible allergins...now I'm thinking that may be a bad idea. I'm applying his monthly dose of Advantage tonight just in case. I've never seen a flea on him or my other dog (not much problem with fleas in Michigan) but I don't want to risk it.

Thanks, Marj for your kind words!


----------



## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

havaluv said:


> *
> 
> I'm interested to hear your opinions and comments.*


She's offering you a free puppy that's probably worth around 2,000. Why don't you talk openly with her and ask her to sell the puppy she would let you have and give you the money for vet bills instead which would also cover what the puppy came with.
Patella problems can be genetic or caused by an injury. Bandit got her patella messed up when the dogs were running on wet grass and she slid. Before the dogs behind her could stop, they wound up tromping on an already injured patella from the slide and fall. I gave her glucosomine (sp?) and let time heal it and it was fine in a few months.
This breeder sounds more reputable than some I've heard of. I know of one dog with a genetic problem where the breeder guarantees a money back refund however when the person with the dog went to the breeder and wanted to send the dog back, they were told they could only return the dog *if the dog wasn't spayed*. There's no way this person would send a bitch back to the breeder since the breeder has already bred their bitch SIX times back to back. Your breeder sounds like a dream compared to this one.
You seem afraid to ask the breeder questions. Did you do your homework and make sure the health testing was done prior to buying the dog? The breeder is going to ask you a ton of questions and check you out as best they can and you have that same right.


----------



## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Shelly, you've probably already considered this but I thought I'd throw it out there. Since Ollie was itching from the time you brought him home in MI and continues to itch in CA perhaps it's something as simple as an allergy to whatever laundry detergent or fabric softener sheets you are using when washing your clothes or sheets or whatever. Perhaps even any air fresheners you might be using. 
Just a thought.


----------



## Elaine (Jan 17, 2007)

Shelly,
Since you are using a flea treatment, that may also be creating a problem. I don't like flea treatments unless you actually see fleas on your pet. You can add a few drops of Dawn dishwashing detergent to what you bath him in and that should help with anything mild that may come up. Havanese are more sensitive to shots and I am sure that putting to much pestacides (?) on them is not good either. I agree with less is better. If Ollie's breeder had just given him shots before he left and was not careful about what was given that could also affect him. There are so many things that could contribute to all of this. I also was not to worried about your husbands stress as much as yours. I know how much Ollie must love you and he know what you are feeling. When we go into a show ring a lot of times if the dog is acting up it's because of the person on the end of the lead, usually it's because it's a puppy though, but they feel what you are feeling through the lead. If you are nervous they feel it. He is very attached to you and only wants to please you. He is also a male and we always say, Girls Love You but Boys are in Love with You.


----------



## Wesleysmom (Dec 20, 2007)

Missy said:


> at first I thought you were giving away Ollie, got excited at first 'cause he is adorable and I wanted him...and then was relieved. He is lucky to have found you. I think most breeders offer free puppies instead of help with medical costs. As many breeders here have said you barely make ends meet selling the pups. I think that she would let you keep Ollie too is actually very generous (as far as the business goes.)
> 
> I am sorry about your expenses. I don't know about the luxating patella-- but I would try the chicken and rice or even beef and rice for allergies. I found with Jasper that if I found food for him without Flax he did much better. Now at almost 2 years he is hardly itchy at all.
> 
> Jasper didn't jump up or down off furniture until he was 8 months old!!! one day we came home and he was just sitting on a chair. Havs are not supposed to be allowed to jump (yeah right) until their growth plates close and that is about 1.5 years. So Ollie's not jumping is actually protecting his joints.


Wesley didn't jump off the furniture for a little bit(he's 5 months now) but LOVES to do it now. But still doesn't like to navigate any stairs.


----------



## havaluv (Oct 15, 2007)

> You seem afraid to ask the breeder questions. Did you do your homework and make sure the health testing was done prior to buying the dog? The breeder is going to ask you a ton of questions and check you out as best they can and you have that same right.


I am not afraid to ask questions, just hesitant to ask for _proof_ after the question has been answered. (she did tell me that all the tests had been done) I know that's dumb, it just feels to me like I'm accusing her of lying and so I didn't do it when I should have.

The vet seems pretty sure this is a food allergy, not stress. We both work on really being upbeat around him.

I use a non-chemical detergent...in fact all my cleaning products are natural, no chemicals so I dont think that's it, but it's good to try to think of everything.

Both vets have insisted on flea treatment thinking that one flea bite is going to cause more allergy problems than the treatment. I don't know the validity of that argument, it's just what two different vets have recommended.

I'm off to Laguna beach for the week. I won't have internet access (I think) so I probably won't check in til after the new year!
*
Happy Holidays Everyone! *


----------

