# Question about mixed breeds



## Nora (Feb 12, 2019)

I often see very cute dogs that are part Havanese and part Bichon. These mixed breeds are very cute, the owners seem happy with the dog and the dog seems to be happy and healthy. However, I cannot find breeders that breed these small mixed breed dogs such as a maltipoo, etc. Where do they come from??


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Puppy mills. And sometimes accidents  There are some breeders who do it but generally the ones being sold are coming from puppy mills.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

My view of this is probably very niave considering I knew very little about dog breeding until I began to search for my Havanese, but I’m sure others will share more experienced perspectives. This is just the opinion I’m settling into based on what I’ve learned. If I’ve got it completely wrong, hopefully someone will educate me!

In my area there is a ton of hobby breeding (I don’t even know if that’s the right word), mostly of larger poodle mixes. I even saw an add once for Havanese mixes, but they aren’t as popular here. I’m wary of them. I don’t have any problem with the idea in theory, I’m just skeptical that a hobby breeder has the resources and necessary commitment to managing the unique needs of both breeds as well as the health complexities that can come from mixed breeds, even if they are loving, well intentioned people. That being said, I have to believe there are good breeders out there who manage. I imagine it’s twice as hard to verify, and for every sketchy purebred breeder out there, there have to be at least three times as many sketchy “designer” breeders. I say this based on how many strangers have approached us and asked us about breeding our dog. I believe it’s important to continue to responsibly breed purebreds dogs, but I also don’t condem alternative breeders. It just seems like a much more complicated issue than it appears to be on the surface.

Most of the breeders I came across who breed these types of mixes are just families and don’t even advertise. There is a Goldendoodle breeder that I’ve heard several friends mention they would love a puppy from, but they also have a very long waiting list and only a couple of litters a year.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

There are absolutely NO cross breed dogs bred by reputable breeders, because reputable breeders are committed to preserving their breed, not just making money producing "cute pets". Reputable breeders will not sell their puppies to someone who intends to use that puppy to produce cross breed dogs, so, by definition, a crossbreed has to be produced using two inferior representatives of their breed. If this is done purposely, it is ALWAYS done by a puppy mill or backyard breeder. I would never support such a practice.

I'm not saying it never happens by mistake. Of course it can, but it is exceedingly rare. It is really easy to keep an intact girl away from boys when it is her time. She is small. Pick her up or confine her. It is just not that hard. So if it DOES happen and you are lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time, enjoy your find.

There are also crosses like this that certainly show up in shelters. But they are invariable puppy mill-bred dogs, with all the possibilities of problems that go along with that. 

...And I get down to the bottom question of why on earth would you want to do it? What attributes for another breed would you want to add to a Havanese to make them "better"? I don't get it... Bichons CERTAINLY have more health problems than Havanese, and harder to manage coats (because of the curls) It pretty much guarantees that you will need to keep them clipped. Otherwise, structurally, they are not THAT much different. Nor temperamentally. They both have nice dispositions and are fun little dogs. Pick one or the other and enjoy the breed.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

I agree 100% with Karen(above). 
Bichon Frise are wonderful dogs! I've had 4. They are similar to Havanese but with more health problems. My vet actually suggested I get a Havanese this time rather than another Bichon. 
There are many good Havanese breeders in Florida. There are a few I would avoid. If I might ask, who have you contacted?


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

krandall said:


> There are absolutely NO cross breed dogs bred by reputable breeders, because reputable breeders are committed to preserving their breed, not just making money producing "cute pets".
> 
> .


This is the best way I've heard to describe it. I know of very nice people who are doing this because they are excited about the novelty of the cross breed and they love dogs, so it's not like they are going to come across as sleezy people or suspicious like a shady puppy mill breeder. They are going to seem like very nice people with "cute puppies" and they will want the best for their dogs and will try to make sure they are healthy. Which is why so many people end up with their puppies! But at the end of the day, there is no way to ensure that they've had appropriate health testing, and the ethical issues are really complicated.

I definitely don't believe it's easier to do it this way. In the end the cost is a designer dog price tag without any of the assurances that come from a reputable breeder and a purebred dog. I don't think that's worth getting a dog more quickly.

On the other hand, adopting a rescue that is not purebred is completely different.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

I hate to admit this and hope I am not thrown out of this forum, however my Mia is half Papillon and half Havanese. She is actually a breeder “mistake”. Her mom is a show dog Havanese, however somehow the breeder’s daughter’s papillon was visiting and did the job. The breeder was not aware of this and sold her. However, after a few weeks Mia’s ears starting popping up and looking like a Papillon. The owners returned her at 4 months and that is how I got her. Still to this day, if she gets excited her ears pop up and it is the cutest thing. I have yet to capture that in a picture because it only happens once in awhile. This was an unfortunate incident and the breeder felt terrible, however I think I have the sweetest dog in the world so I guess something good came out of it. She pretty much looks like a full blooded Havanese except for the giant ears that pop up once in awhile. She is 10 years old and no health issues or allergies.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

mudpuppymama said:


> I hate to admit this and hope I am not thrown out of this forum, however my Mia is half Papillon and half Havanese. She is actually a breeder "mistake". Her mom is a show dog Havanese, however somehow the breeder's daughter's papillon was visiting and did the job. The breeder was not aware of this and sold her. However, after a few weeks Mia's ears starting popping up and looking like a Papillon. The owners returned her at 4 months and that is how I got her. Still to this day, if she gets excited her ears pop up and it is the cutest thing. I have yet to capture that in a picture because it only happens once in awhile. This was an unfortunate incident and the breeder felt terrible, however I think I have the sweetest dog in the world so I guess something good came out of it. She pretty much looks like a full blooded Havanese except for the giant ears that pop up once in awhile. She is 10 years old and no health issues or allergies.


Don't worry - it be held against you! I would love to see a photo when her ears pop up! She looks like a beauty!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Thanks Jackie! I will try to get a picture. If they go up, typically it is when I have some treats in hand and no camera. I will try to get my husband to be ready with the camera. It does help too if I trim her ears as short as possible since I guess there is less weight. Sometimes only one goes up. Would love to get her to do this on command but no luck so far.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

*Mia with Ears Up*

I managed to get a picture of Mia with her ears up.


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## Nora (Feb 12, 2019)

I do not want to mention any by breeders by name. However, another question comes to mind so while we are on this topic, I have read many bad things about pet shop puppies as coming from puppy mills. But what about Rescue dogs? How do we know where a rescue dog comes from?? Is it a bad idea to adopt a rescue dog? and even what about shelters? Is it a bad idea to adopt a dog from a shelter??


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

Nora said:


> I do not want to mention any by breeders by name. However, another question comes to mind so while we are on this topic, I have read many bad things about pet shop puppies as coming from puppy mills. But what about Rescue dogs? How do we know where a rescue dog comes from?? Is it a bad idea to adopt a rescue dog? and even what about shelters? Is it a bad idea to adopt a dog from a shelter??


More often than not, getting a dog through a shelter/adoption group is just as much of a crapshoot as getting a puppy from a pet store/irresponsible breeder. You don't know what you are getting health wise, you don't know what's in the dog's family tree temperament wise, you don't know history...but when you shop at a pet shop or an irresponsible breeder, you are doing nothing but directly lining their pockets and creating more of a demand. They also ask significantly more price wise than any reputable rescue group ever would. I personally don't see myself ever getting a rescue dog for reason of unpredictability in things that truly matter to me but will always help with reputable rescue groups.

That said, it happens occasionally that a well bred Havanese finds itself in rescue with Havanese Rescue, Inc. I believe recently an owner got sick and had to rehome her well bred dog whose breeder had passed, so the dog ended up with HRI.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

*rescue*



Nora said:


> I do not want to mention any by breeders by name. However, another question comes to mind so while we are on this topic, I have read many bad things about pet shop puppies as coming from puppy mills. But what about Rescue dogs? How do we know where a rescue dog comes from?? Is it a bad idea to adopt a rescue dog? and even what about shelters? Is it a bad idea to adopt a dog from a shelter??


Good or bad depends on what you're looking for. As a general rule I'd say -no, it's not bad, it's actually good, to rescue from a shelter or breed specific rescue. However, other posts are right about it being a crap shoot on health issues, etc. As far as temperament - most rescues will test for that to help place them with the best match, but shelters are less able to do this.

No, it's not the same as buying from a pet store - a pet store is directly paying a puppy mill which will encourage the puppy mill to keep breeding and selling (though more are featuring rescues instead of selling puppies). A rescue is taking an animal that was abandoned in a variety of circumstances and finding them a new home - usually charging a fee to help cover their costs.

When you rescue you get both more choice and less at the same time - more because you can choose to get a puppy, a 'teenager' or an older dog - and less because there might only be 1 puppy in a rescue that will accept you, you might have to wait longer, and you might not get "exactly" what you were looking for.

I still am a very strong advocate of rescue, not buy - but I understand why some people choose the more certain path of buying from a reputable breeder.


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

mudpuppymama said:


> I managed to get a picture of Mia with her ears up.


Adorable! She's a beauty.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

I would think your odds of getting a healthy dog are better with a reputable breeder. However, two of the most wonderful dogs I have ever known have been from rescues. I also know of three purebred dogs from supposed reputable breeders that had severe problems. One was a Shiba who developed horrible seizures and had to be put down before 1 year old. Someone else I know got two Cairn Terriers from the same parents and one became super aggressive and bit the groomer resulting in 3 plastic surgeries. The dog was put down. The other dog is a joy. The third was a Pomeranian whose trachea collapsed at age 4 and died. They think the first two may be vaccine related vs. breeding. Note that some say the rabies vaccine can cause fear and aggression in some dogs and seizures are definitely a possible result of vaccines.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

mudpuppymama said:


> I managed to get a picture of Mia with her ears up.


Oh my I love her! She is just adorable!


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

While I would not adopt a rescue dog, I have a friend whose mission in life is to rescue dogs who have been abandoned, mistreated or thrown away. I donate money and help fundraising for this mission. There are people out there who - only - adopt rescue dogs because they love animals and want to give them a better life and would not think of purchasing a dog from any kind of breeder, reputable or not. Because, they feel there are too many dogs already who need homes. 

In Oklahoma, we have/had so many puppy mills, the state made it against the law for pet stores to sell dogs or cats. However, pet stores are allowed to display rescue animals that can be adopted from rescue groups.

As someone mentioned on this discussion, it's probably a bad idea to purchase a dog from inexperienced, novelty-at-home breeders to discourage them from continuing the practice. But giving any dog a loving home, especially one with health problems is an admirable and loving thing to do, although I don't want to do it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Just like with breeders, you need to research rescues VERY carefully before making a decision. There are some wonderful non-profit rescues out there, that do their best to place good dogs in good homes. I think most breed rescues are in this category.

But unfortunately, there are also now a LOT of for-profit "rescues" that are nothing more than low cost outlets for puppy mill dogs brought up from the south to northern states that don't have enough local rescue dogs. These groups also often import dogs from outside the continental US, and in doing so, endanger our US dogs with the diseases the bring in with them. These groups can look completely legit on the surface, so you really have to do your due diligence, JUST like picking a good breeder. It's no different. If you feel strongly about rescue, and want to go that route, fine. But do your homework, and make SURE that the group you are adopting from is a reputable, local, non-profit rescue. Do NOT look as rescue as a way to find a "cheap dog", because you are likely to "pay" in other ways. Do it because you are committed to that sort of work.

The other thing you should look out for, and I do NOT think this is a big problem with HRI, is that some breed rescues make it harder to adopt a dog than it is to adopt a child. I get a little aggravated with that sort of rescue too. When a group passes up good homes for silly reasons, they are not doing the dogs any favors.


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## [email protected] (Apr 12, 2012)

Oh what a cutie with butterfly ears!!❤


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> Just like with breeders, you need to research rescues VERY carefully before making a decision. There are some wonderful non-profit rescues out there, that do their best to place good dogs in good homes. I think most breed rescues are in this category.
> 
> But unfortunately, there are also now a LOT of for-profit "rescues" that are nothing more than low cost outlets for puppy mill dogs brought up from the south to northern states that don't have enough local rescue dogs.


Very true - and with new state laws prohibiting selling puppies and requiring that any dog in a pet store be a rescue this is going to be even more of an issue. In fact, because of one of the points below (overly restrictive rescues) I strongly suspect that the rescue that I got Perry from might be one of these.



krandall said:


> These groups also often import dogs from outside the continental US, and in doing so, endanger our US dogs with the diseases the bring in with them.


I would add though that there are also very legitimate rescues which bring in dogs from countries where it's really hard to place rescues. I would disagree about bringing diseases in with them being a major issue (Karen do you have any articles on this) - as the US does require health checks and dogs shipped separately from their owners do get checked more carefully than those we bring in with us.



krandall said:


> These groups can look completely legit on the surface, so you really have to do your due diligence, JUST like picking a good breeder. It's no different. If you feel strongly about rescue, and want to go that route, fine. But do your homework, and make SURE that the group you are adopting from is a reputable, local, non-profit rescue. Do NOT look as rescue as a way to find a "cheap dog", because you are likely to "pay" in other ways. Do it because you are committed to that sort of work.
> 
> The other thing you should look out for, and I do NOT think this is a big problem with HRI, is that some breed rescues make it harder to adopt a dog than it is to adopt a child. I get a little aggravated with that sort of rescue too. When a group passes up good homes for silly reasons, they are not doing the dogs any favors.


Definitely do not look at it as finding a cheap dog - but doing it because you believe in rescue, want to give a home to a dog that has lost theirs (or has been rescued from a bad situation) and that you think it might be better to give a home to an existing dog rather than buy one.

On the overly difficult rescues - there are more than a few of them with requirements that often force people who would rescue into buying instead. It's happened to several people in my own family. Honestly, it's probably the only reason I would buy at this point. When I was looking to get Perry, the number of rescues that wouldn't even consider my circumstances was very high. The number that require a fenced back yard or someone to be home all day (even if you could satisfy that with other alternatives, they might not consider them at all), or not have kids under 8 (even if those kids grew up with dogs and had great dog manners), who won't adopt out of state (even if you could do a virtual 'home visit' to show them your situation), etc. The list can go on and on. On one hand I understand partially where it comes from - many of these dogs have been in bad situations or have been passed around and they want to ensure success, but it does reduce the homes you can find AND it means you keep a dog in rescue longer than you might otherwise which means less room for other dogs.

All that being said, I am very strongly committed to adopting rather than buying. If we ever get pup #2 I will do everything I possibly can to adopt, even if it takes being rejected by 10 different rescues and months and months of trying.


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

It is pretty well documented that the recent canine influenza outbreak that has killed a good number of dogs was caused by the import of South Korean dogs for rescue, unfortunately. There has also been cause for concern with imported Turkish Golden Retrievers, healthy and well socialized purebred Goldens claimed to have been found living as strays in Turkey, being a money making scheme for people who found a great buyer (American rescues).

Anti-breeder folks love to go on about the pet overpopulation issue yet seem to have little issue bringing dogs in from overseas rather than focusing on that "overpopulation issue".


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Oh...she looks sooo adorable! I often see little dogs that I think are Havanese. When I ask the owner they usually say they are a maltipoo or some kind of poodle mix. Labradoodles and Goldendoodles are very popular here. I thought Havanese, Bichon Friese and Maltese were all in the same family, so I'm surprise to hear Bichon's have so many health issues.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Heather's said:


> I thought Havanese, Bichon Friese and Maltese were all in the same family, so I'm surprise to hear Bichon's have so many health issues.


I kind of thought the same thing. I didn't know Bichon's had more health issues. Willow's prior owners had Bichons before they got Willow. They didn't mention any health issues but they did say that Willow seemed easier to groom than a Bichon.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

*rescue*



KarMar said:


> It is pretty well documented that the recent canine influenza outbreak that has killed a good number of dogs was caused by the import of South Korean dogs for rescue, unfortunately. There has also been cause for concern with imported Turkish Golden Retrievers, healthy and well socialized purebred Goldens claimed to have been found living as strays in Turkey, being a money making scheme for people who found a great buyer (American rescues).
> 
> Anti-breeder folks love to go on about the pet overpopulation issue yet seem to have little issue bringing dogs in from overseas rather than focusing on that "overpopulation issue".


Interesting on the first point - definitely speaks to needing more health screening for some imports. On the second - I know people who have adopted from overseas rescues - overpopulation is a global issue - so adopting from overseas is addressing it the same way that adopting from the US does. You can disagree, but often dogs overseas (especially black ones in some countries, especially in Asia) are in as much or more danger than dogs in US rescues/ shelters. Either way, rescue takes dogs that were abandoned and gives them homes.

For the record, I am not anti-responsible breeder, but I do wish more people would give rescue a chance before buying.


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