# Gabbys scratching



## Ruthi (Nov 10, 2011)

Well, Gabby is home. :whoo: I took her to our vet this morning. He said it was allergies. Funny, there was a girl ahead of me that was in there with the same issues, chewing on feet and itching. He gave her a shot and said it should last 3 or 4 weeks. He gave me some pills to give her if she starts scratching again. Predizones. I dont want to give her those, so, hopefully it gets better. I also changed her food to a better food.. I was told food with grains was a big offender. I bought some oatmeal bath stuff too. I will keep yall updated. Thanks for all the advice yall have given me.


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

You are a good Momma! Keep us up dated.


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## whimsy (Apr 3, 2010)

If your area is anything like mine, the trees are blooming and it makes for high pollen count. If Gabby is walking around on grass, you might want to wash her feet off when she come in. She most likely would have pollen on them and it may help to get it off. Just a thought. Poor thing..hope she is more comfortable now.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

We gave maddie that medication. It helped because the more they scratch the worse it gets. Any way she wasn't on it very long and she did get better. It is a good idea to try the grain free food. My vet also did a skin test under the scope did yours?


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## Ruthi (Nov 10, 2011)

No skin test. Our vet is old school, lol. Gabby isnt going outside at all. She pottys on a ugodog. But, I am told she still gets it from the air, and being tracked in. I hope she doesnt have to be on the meds much, as I know it isnt good for her. But, I couldnt take the scratching any longer. Her skin was getting red and irritated. Seems like the shot is working. I have seen her scratch a little, but, not much. Keeping my fingers crossed.


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## nlb (Feb 26, 2012)

Poor Gabby! Hope she stops itching soon! 
We used to have to get cortizone shots for our austrailian shepard. Made sure to eliminate corn from her diet.


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

Did the vet tell you what was in the shot given? If not, could you ask?

Prednisone isn't always great to give a dog, but if it helps with the itchy skin, it's not that bad an idea, if it's just a short course of prednisone. But it would really be a good idea to know what was in the shot that's to last 3 or 4 weeks. Knowing that could help you decide what to do about the prednisone.

My Camellia has allergies; quite severe ones, but we're keeping the the itching - and worse, reverse-sneezing - under control by giving Benadryl three times daily, and baths once-weekly, and sprays twice weekly, with special shampoo and spray.

If the allergies result from a missing skin barrier, which sounds like a possibility (same as Camellia has), then this particular shampoo and spray might help a lot:

http://www.douxo.us/dermatology/douxo-dermatology-dogs-allergies-shampoo.html

When you go to that link, there are various other links included on the page, that give you more information.

While it's true that food with grains can be a big offender, if the dog's allergies are largely environmental, as Camellia's are, this other approach of replacing the missing skin barrier might help especially well.

If you do start the Prednisone, you need to follow through and do exactly as the vet says, to wean her off it little by little, because doing anything else is dangerous. If it's really going to help, I recommend doing it!

How old is Gabby?

Fri, 30 Mar 2012 22:26:51 (PDT)


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## HavaneseHannah (Mar 30, 2011)

Where is he allergic? You may try putting a little warm compress on the allergies to eliminate a little bit of the itch.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Ruthi said:


> No skin test. Our vet is old school, lol. Gabby isnt going outside at all. She pottys on a ugodog. But, I am told she still gets it from the air, and being tracked in. I hope she doesnt have to be on the meds much, as I know it isnt good for her. But, I couldnt take the scratching any longer. Her skin was getting red and irritated. Seems like the shot is working. I have seen her scratch a little, but, not much. Keeping my fingers crossed.


 Thats funny because my vet said they always look easy treatable things first and allergies last. They test for skin mites . Maddie did have a bunch of flacking so maybe that is why. It lasted awhile and right when I was making an appointment with a specialist it all went away. Hope Gabby gets better soon


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## Ruthi (Nov 10, 2011)

Carol, Gabby is 7 months on the 4th. Shame on me, but, the vet just said allergy shot. I am going to call him Monday and ask what it was. The shot may have helped a little, but she is still scratching and chewing on herself. I will ck out the link you gave me. This is driving us both crazy.


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

Ruthi said:


> Carol, Gabby is 7 months on the 4th. Shame on me, but, the vet just said allergy shot. I am going to call him Monday and ask what it was. The shot may have helped a little, but she is still scratching and chewing on herself. I will ck out the link you gave me. This is driving us both crazy.


My doGNess, Ruthi; don't be ashamed of not asking what the shot was! These are things we learn little by little. And when we're really worried and upset about our dogs feeling bad, it's very hard to know what questions to ask. If you're anything like me, you only think of it some time after you're home!

Also, I've been studying dog-stuff for the last 38 years or so, so I'm up on SOME things, but I can't think of everything every time, either!

Anyway, do find out what the shot was.

I knew I had another link, and I just found it; here it is:

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=PRINT&A=1535

It sort of explains the missing skin barrier problem. It's the printable version. My vet gave me this link, along with a handout about allergic dermatitis. And this has only been discovered in the last two or three years, my vet says. She keeps up with current information, but your old-school vet may not be doing that - probably doesn't have the time nor money to do it.

Maybe he'd appreciate being shown these links? I don't know; some vets don't like it when their clients point stuff out to them. Others really appreciate it!

Now, here's a link to the web site of Dr. Nancy Kay. She's been writing about how to be medical advocates for our dogs. It's REALLY good stuff. I suggest you go have a look at that site, and from there, you can also reach her blog site, which is also very much worth reading. I signed up for her newsletter, which comes in roughly once a month; sometimes more often.

http://www.speakingforspot.com/

Her books are very much worth having on your shelf (or in your hand) for reference.

Dr. Kay is a board-certified specialist in Internal Medicine. So is my vet, Dr. Amanda Booth. It's just great for me that Dr. Amanda loves to do general practice, so she DOES! But she keeps up in her field, too (Internal Medicine).

Today is Saturday - evening now, where I am; don't know just where you are, because I didn't check, and I can't see from here, but it could be later for you.

I BELIEVE I'd start Gabby on the prednisone as your vet directed, if you haven't already done so, because she's itching so badly. Sometimes dogs REALLY need some assistance to STOP the itching. Itching is a form of pain.

A typical short course of prednisone goes something like this:

(I'm assuming the tablets are 5 mg (five milligrams) - but this is from memory, and my memory is purely ROTTEN. Gabby being small would have a small dose; probably half a tablet if the tabs are 5 mg. (Again, I'm guessing.) Anyway; typically:

Half a tablet twice a day for five days (with food); that takes up five tablets. Then half a tablet every day for the next five days (usually in the morning, with food). Then half a tablet every OTHER day, till all the tablets are gone. It's probably another five days. So, that would be 15 days on the prednisone.

Typical side effects are, increased thirst, increased hunger, maybe some irritability (mood), maybe a trace of bloating (nothing serious, not like the "bloat" that big dogs can have so much trouble with). Increased urination, because of taking in more water. Make sure to have fresh water always available, including overnight, when giving prednisone - it's NEEDED water!

Now that I've made my guess, would you post the instructions you have, and the number of tablets, and how many milligrams they are? I'd really like to know how my guess went. And also, could you say, please, how much Gabby weighs? Because that affects what doses are prescribed.

The reason I'd start her on the predisone now is that it will begin to control the itching; not right away, but soon; within a couple of days, if I remember right. And likely, nothing else will do the job the prednisone does. If Gabby has had the usual vet checks, she should be okay to take the prednisone. The pred will help heal the skin!

I wouldn't suggest it if your vet had NOT prescribed it!

But the skin is a crucial organ of the body! So it's best to try to keep it in pretty good condition!

I'll await your next report, with Gabby's weight, and the information about the prednisone tablets - strength, and what the vet's instructions are for dosing.

It's my bedtime so I'll hope you can post by tomorrow sometime.

MUMMY! Are you going to be good and go to bed on time? (00)

Yes, Camellia; well, ALMOST. I have to stay up long enough to give you your last dose of Benadryl, and you know, we're running late today because of extra errands in town! ;-^

Well, Mummy, okay. I hope Gabby feels better soon. (00)

I hope so too, Camellia. ;-^

Sat, 31 Mar 2012 21:20:15 (PDT)


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

Okay, so you're in Georgia; probably three hours' time difference from me, so it's already after midnight - it's 1 April where you are! I hope you can post soon!

MUMMY! almost time for my Benadryl! (00)

Half an hour, sweet Camellia; then we can go to beddy bye! ;-^

Great! Gabby, STOP ITCHING! (00)

She would if she could, Camellia! ;-^

Love and hugs, licks and wags,
Sat, 31 Mar 2012 21:29:47 (PDT)


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## Ruthi (Nov 10, 2011)

Carol, you are too funny. Gabby weights right at 10 lbs. The predisone is 20 mg. His instructions say to give her one half tablet every other day when the shot wears off and she starts scratching. He said the shot should last 3 weeks or so. Thanks for all the links and information. I have not had time to read it all yet, probably will by tonight. I am getting hubby off to work for this week, and doing a lot. I am sure my vet is not up to new stuff. He is pretty old, and I am sure he is just working now to have something to do. He is only in his office half days.


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

Ruthi said:


> Carol, you are too funny. Gabby weights right at 10 lbs. The predisone is 20 mg. His instructions say to give her one half tablet every other day when the shot wears off and she starts scratching. He said the shot should last 3 weeks or so. Thanks for all the links and information. I have not had time to read it all yet, probably will by tonight. I am getting hubby off to work for this week, and doing a lot. I am sure my vet is not up to new stuff. He is pretty old, and I am sure he is just working now to have something to do. He is only in his office half days.


I think if it were me, I'll search for another vet, perhaps one who is younger - one who keeps up-to-date with current information. I do know how HARD it is to change vets, especially if you've been with the same vet for a lot of years.

But I know you want the best for Gabby!

There's a really great vet school in Georgia - is it Athens? I think so - University of Georgia, I think. Maybe they could help you find a vet local to you who has

I'd find out what that shot is BEFORE you give Gabby any prednisone. If the shot was prednisone and it's supposed to last three weeks, you could seriously give an overdose by starting the prednisone now.I'm falling asleep in the computer chair, so will quit for now.

Sun, 1 Apr 2012 12:08:46 (PDT)


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

I forgot to say - I THINK my Kwali was on 5 mg (half of 10 mg tablets), first, 5 mg twice a day for five days, then 5 mg once a day for five days, then 5 mg every other day. I think her tablets were 10 mg. She weighed 22 pounds. So I think there's a chance your vet prescribed a HUGE dose of prednisone, and I'd want a second opinion from another vet, before starting the tablets.

Sun, 1 Apr 2012 12:17:48 (PDT) - off to nap - zzzzzzzzzz


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## Ruthi (Nov 10, 2011)

thanks Carol.


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

You're welcome, Ruthi. I had a diabetic Australian Terrier, and found a truly great forum on diabetic dogs. It turns out that many vets know very little about canine diabetes, which isn't all that surprising, because vets have to learn so much about so many species - just the basics.

What's more alarming is that typically, vets who lack the necessary education would prescribe too-large doses of insulin for dogs, and that is extremely dangerous because too much insulin can kill. Some of the forum members have changed vets as often as five times, and many have changed at least once.

I wasn't in that position, because of my vet's thorough education in Internal Medicine.

I stay on the forum, even though my diabetic dog died of cancer (not diabetes) more than a year and a half ago, because I made so many and such good friends there.

The links I sent for Dr. Nancy Kay's web site could help you look around for another vet, and learn what questions to ask vets before selecting one.

If you're anywhere near Athens, you might find a great vet through the University vet school - I think I have that right - that Athens houses the University of Georgia, which has a top-notch vet school.

Sorry to be a source of potentially scary ideas, especially because I'm very fuzzy about the dosing with prednisone - and of course, we don't know if that "allergy shot" also contained steroids - but my guess is, it did.

It could take the shot a couple of days to start working fully, so I hope by tomorrow Gabby will be feeling better.

When you find out from the vet what was in the shot, I'll be grateful to learn that.

Sun, 1 Apr 2012 15:18:25 (PDT)


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## Ruthi (Nov 10, 2011)

Will do Carol. Thanks


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## Ruthi (Nov 10, 2011)

I called the vet this morning, and he said the shot was an inflammatory shot, not predisone. He said to give her half of one of the pills this morning, and call him tomorrow to let him know if it did any good. He said that usually the dogs that come in there with that problem, the shot helps them out pretty fast. So, dont know.........


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

Ruthi said:


> I called the vet this morning, and he said the shot was an inflammatory shot, not predisone. He said to give her half of one of the pills this morning, and call him tomorrow to let him know if it did any good. He said that usually the dogs that come in there with that problem, the shot helps them out pretty fast. So, dont know.........


Please call back and ask for the NAME of the drug that was injected. (I think he means what is called an NSAID: Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug. There are several different drugs used that way.) These drugs are intended to reduce inflammation (surprise!) - AND help control pain.

Vets of the old school, mostly, aren't used to telling their human clients anything at all! They may not understand that many humans, especially nowadays, want to be active participants in their dogs' care. The behavior (vets) is that of assuming the human clients will just do as they're told. And some clients do prefer that, but those who want the best for their dogs usually try to learn, if gradually, and ALSO, expect their vets to inform them in detail, and ALSO, expect their vets to ask them questions about what's going on with the dog at home. And, we as clients, expect our vets to assist us with information - at LEAST, the basics.

Meantime, I'll try to find out what a typical dose is for prednisone, by weight of dog.

Sorry to be asking you to call again, but it's important that you KNOW what drug was used, especially if you're going to another vet. (Which I would definitely do!) Better yet, call your NEW vet, and ask what proper dosing is for your 10-pound Havanese!

Mon, 2 Apr 2012 06:45:11 (PDT)


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

P.S. do you have a pill-cutter? If not, I'd pick one up at the nearest pharmacy. And if you MUST start Gabby on prednisone, which is probably a good idea, I would start with a QUARTER tablet, and do ALL the dosing with QUARTER tablets (5 mg, rather than 10, from the 20 mg tablets). But I really hope you'll get instructions from a vet!

What I'm saying is that prednisone is nothing to play around with. Oh, also, you should probably dose in the typical short-course way:

If I have the dose right (CHECK with a new vet first):

(5?) mg twice a day for five days;
(5?) mg once a day for the next five days
(5?) mg every other day, which, I believe, is 10 days for this last, but I'd have to check - better, you should check!

I'd get Gabby to a new vet just as quickly as possible, to get straightened out on:

1) whether you should use the prednisone (my bet is, yes);
2) what the proper dosing is.

A new vet should examine Gabby first. Cannot prescribe nor assist tlil the vet has had hands-on Gabby!

Wishing you and Gabby a ton of good luck with this! Pleeeeeeze keep us posted - itching is SO nasty!

Mon, 2 Apr 2012 06:52:19 (PDT)


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## rokipiki (Oct 15, 2010)

OMG she is so young! Poor baby! I think you should have allergy tests. If they find out which allergen caused all that misery, during winter she can get hyposensibilization shots to make her resistant to particular contact allergens. But before allergy tests, you shoud test for mites, yeast and bacteria. Decent vet sould have equipnet to perform such simple tests! 
There are some supplements than can help a lot with atopic dermatitits like fish oils, salmon oil and coconut oil. It will not help overnight, but it will help. You will see results after six or eight weeks. Other stuff for strengthenihg skin barrier from inside are zinc, methionine and biotin supplements. 
Carol recomended fantastic shampoo and spray (I wish I could buy those). For atopic dermatitis it is CRITICAL to wash allergens from coat and skin with good shampoo. Virbac (manufacturer) has also conditioner for atopic dogs which soothes and protects skin. They also have spray with hydrocortisone. It stops itching in a moment and it is better than taking cortisone orally. You can also try with witchhazel because it acts similarly to hydrocorticone. Just spray Gabby deliberately. Lot of dog owners testify thet it gives immediate relief and it mildly disinfests skin which is quite important because she can get secondary skin infection. Good thing is that it is nor harmfull and in US you can get good quality witchhazel for couple of $. Look for witchhazel hydrosol. 
Prayers for little cutie form 
Marina&Roki


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

Hey, Marina! Thanks for a truly EXCELLENT post! True about checking the skin first for mites or other infection - bacteria, and so forth.

About supplements, fish oil (preferably, WILD salmon oil), also true. When you give salmon oil, you need to give Vitamin E, too. Something about salmon oil being slightly on the inflammatory side, and the Vitamin E calming it.

Dosages - according to the handout my vet gave me:

Salmon Oil Capsules: 1000 mg (usually one capsule) per 5 Kg body weight (Gabby, at 10 pounds, weighs about 4.5 Kg) - so one capsule - daily. give with food, and split between meals if fed more than once daily). Work up to the dose gradually - possible side effects include soft stool, gas or tummy upset. Not all dogs are able to take the full oes, and if not, give the maximum dose that is well tolerated. (courtesy of my vet, Dr.Amanda Booth).

Continuing from the same handout: Vitamin E capsules: 200 iu (International Units) daily for small dogs. I bought 100-iu capsules; you might have to search for that size; often sold in 400 iu or 200 iu, but best given twice a day, so the 100 iu size works out better. I'm assuming, of course, you feed at least twice a day. (I gave 100 iu with each meal).

I've heard of using coconut oil, too, but don't know how to use it - want to help our, Marina?

I'd also heard of using witch hazel, but again, didn't know how to use it, so lots of thanks, Marina, for your instructions on that!

But the first step, of course, as Marina and others point out, is to get some kind of accurate diagnosis. That's why the initial check.

I do want to emphasize, too, that it's important to get the actual name of the drug that Gabby got as an injection. It MIGHT not be one of the NSAIDs I mentioned - I've heard there's something else long-acting, that might have side effects, but I don't remember the name of it.

Your new vet needs to know EXACTLY what Gabby has been treated with so far.

Your regular vet should also cheerfully forward all information to your new vet. You can say you're getting a second opinion.

So, now, awaiting your next post. I don't know how long it will take you to get an appointment with a new vet. If need be, maybe you can take Gabby to the nearest 24-hour, or emergency, animal hospital.

Trouble with that is, it's rather a crap-shoot, as you can't select your vet if you go to emergency.

Now dumping it all in your hands, Ruthi!

Mon, 2 Apr 2012 11:03:05 (PDT)


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## Ruthi (Nov 10, 2011)

Thanks for all the advice. I did give Gabby a quarter of a pill this morning, and it seems to be helping, although she has been on the go all day, and hasnt had much chillin time, which is when she does the most of her scratching and biting. Carol thanks for the dosage reference. Marina, thanks for you info also.


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

Ruthi said:


> Thanks for all the advice. I did give Gabby a quarter of a pill this morning, and it seems to be helping, although she has been on the go all day, and hasnt had much chillin time, which is when she does the most of her scratching and biting. Carol thanks for the dosage reference. Marina, thanks for you info also.


That STILL may be too much prednisone; I don't know, but because you began it, I'd continue with what I sketched out.

The 5 mg dose (a quarter tablet of the 20 mg stuff) would be suitable, I believe, for a 20-pound dog. Not sure about a TEN- pound dog! So please check with a new vet just as soon as you can! It can be difficult to cut pills accurately into quarters; just do your best.

Since you began it, you probably need to continue it. (Thinking back now to my vets and the information they've given me in the past.)

I think this is the approach I'd take right now, in this semi-emergency situation.

1) Make sure to find out, tomorrow I hope, from your vet, EXACTLY what the drug was that he injected, and ask him also for the dose injected. When he tells you, WRITE IT DOWN!)

2) Do your best to get an appointment, as early as possible, probably with a vet who is board-certified in Internal Medicine.

3) At the time you make the appointment, ask to speak with the vet. Tell the vet (phone will do), exactly WHAT was injected - what drug, and the dose. And ask how to proceed until you can get an appointment for Gabby to be examined.

It's possible a vet will say nothing till s/he sees Gabby, hands-on.

You COULD stop the prednisone after one dose, or even one day, I believe, without endangering Gabby, and I don't really know what to do about this situation. What you really need, as soon as possible, is to have a highly-qualified vet examine Gabby, and proceed from there.

Is Gabby spayed? Just interested, and maybe that makes a difference.

Here's what concerns me:

The prednisone will probably reduce itching, but I worry about the dose I suggested - it STILL might be twice as much as she should have!

The possible interaction between prednisone and what was injected, and how much was injected.

Gabby's age, and whether the fact that she's still a puppy makes a difference.

It would be good to raise those concerns when you talk to somebody about getting a vet appointment for Gabby.

Best write down the questions you want to cover, before getting on the phone - otherwise, it's too easy to be distracted by what is said from the other end of the phone!

I'll be here watching.

Lots of love, and best wishes for Gabby and you!

Mon, 2 Apr 2012 16:46:52 (PDT)


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## rokipiki (Oct 15, 2010)

CarolWCamelo said:


> Hey, Marina! Thanks for a truly EXCELLENT post! True about checking the skin first for mites or other infection - bacteria, and so forth.
> 
> About supplements, fish oil (preferably, WILD salmon oil), also true. When you give salmon oil, you need to give Vitamin E, too. Something about salmon oil being slightly on the inflammatory side, and the Vitamin E calming it.
> 
> ...


I have found (human) wild alaskan salmon oil (1000 mg) in capsules with added vitamin E (200 IU). I am buying wonderful stuff from my vet and that is Dermazyme Zinc pills (Biotin, zinc, Methionine) made in Belgium by company Ecuphar. They have other wonderfull products for dogs and cats, especially for skin problems. 
I use also virgin coconut oil - when you put it in the fridge it hardens. I just break one small piece with spoon and give it to Roki. But you have to add it gradually. Some dogs love to have a tsp. of liquid coco oil on their food, but Roki is not happy with that. I also use it as paw pad balsam. 
I still envy you on those superb shampoos and sprays. I went to the web page and saw that they have also shampoo and spray for pyoderma (that's Roki's problem) so I wanted to ask you from whom you are ordering these. Most on-line shops do not ship to my country or shipping fee is sooo outrageous!
Marina&Roki


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## Ruthi (Nov 10, 2011)

I called the vet again this morning and his advice was to give Gabby 5mg pred. 2 times a day for 5 days. Then 10 mgs of pred every other day. From everything I have read, that sounds like a lot of pred. to me. I really dont want to use the drug at all because of all that I have read. The shot he gave her was Depo Medrod, 10 mg. That is a steroid. I am sooo confused as to what is the right thing to do. I am calling a vet hospital that is in a different town that I know of. I used them in the past for an English Bulldog that I had that had a lot of health issues. They are very well trained and up to date. I had forgot about them. Hopefully they can help Gabby out. I am not giving her any more Pred. She only had the one dose, so hopefully that is ok.


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## Ruthi (Nov 10, 2011)

Yeah, just called and they had an opening for 4pm today! It is a ways to drive, but it will be worth it to get to the bottom of this, and you can bet ya I will ask questions.


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

Ruthi said:


> I called the vet again this morning and his advice was to give Gabby 5mg pred. 2 times a day for 5 days. Then 10 mgs of pred every other day. From everything I have read, that sounds like a lot of pred. to me. I really dont want to use the drug at all because of all that I have read. The shot he gave her was Depo Medrod, 10 mg. That is a steroid. I am sooo confused as to what is the right thing to do. I am calling a vet hospital that is in a different town that I know of. I used them in the past for an English Bulldog that I had that had a lot of health issues. They are very well trained and up to date. I had forgot about them. Hopefully they can help Gabby out. I am not giving her any more Pred. She only had the one dose, so hopefully that is ok.


Ruthi - you are doing a great, great job with this! (I just read your later post, too, and I'm SO GLAD you're taking Gabby in today!

Here's what I learned on the Internet:

http://www.drugs.com/vet/depo-medrol.html

Looks as though your regular vet did okay with the choice of what to inject (and why), and the dose looks (probably) right too (though with Gabby weighing only ten pounds, I'm not sure).

Yeah; it's a steroid. Probably couldn't have been expected to work fully till today or so (to reduce itching significantly); that's a guess on my part.

So glad you only gave ONE dose of 5 mg of the prednisone; yes, I think it's safe to omit it now, till you get instructions from the new vet. I suggest taking your bottle of prednisone with you to the appointment, along with a list of your questions.

If you have a friend or somebody who can go with you, that could be a BIG help, because when we are under pressure, it's hard to listen very well at times (but take notebook and pen with you, too, to write down important stuff).

Sounds as though you'll be in better shape for Gabby's safety, health and comfort (in that order!) after you have your appointment today.

I'll be here watching; you can count on that! doG willing and the creek don't rise!

Lots of love and hugs,
Tue, 3 Apr 2012 07:33:53 (PDT)


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

P.S. Your vet's suggestion doesn't sound all that great to me, either; that is, the more normal way to use what he's given you (that tablets) is as I sketched out before. And I'm not sure that 5 mg per dose is right, either.

But we'll learn more today.

if you see a fly on the wall at your appointment, don't kill it; it's me!

Or, come to think of it, a spider! (Hope you don't mind spiders; they arrived on my site, Coherent Dog, as a theme, because I was watching spiders when I was "imprisoned" in my own home, when my Australian Terrier Kumbi was recovering from knee surgery! - some spiders are actually nice, though I still can't let them crawl on me!; not even the nice ones!)

Tue, 3 Apr 2012 07:38:22 (PDT)


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## Rita Nelson (Jul 13, 2009)

Poor Gabby, hope she gets relief soon. Tucker has environmental allergies which are more noticeable in the spring and fall. During the time of determining what kind of allergy he had we took him off food with fowl or gains plus started him on Benadryl twice a day. This course of action helped greatly, but he'd still lick one paw during the spring and fall. I started him on Nutiva Organic Extra-Virgin Coconut Oil last fall and he's stopped licking his paw. I started him on 1/4 tsp. and now 1 Tblsp. daily mixed with his food. We do wipe his feet off with baby wipes after being outside especially after DH has mowed the lawn. I don't know if this info helps you or not, but the coconut oil IMHO is worth trying.


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## Ruthi (Nov 10, 2011)

Carol, you better be a fly, cause I swat any spider I see. Creep me out, lol. Anyhow, yeah, I think I need the advice of a vet whom I can trust. I like the old school vet, and I dont hold any bad feelings. He is old and he runs the place by himself, and he charges very little. I talked to him once about it and he said he is just staying in the practice to help out people who cant afford the expensive vets, and to help out the animals that other wise wouldnt even get to a vet because of that. I think that is wonderful of him. No matter what this vet says, I will hold no grudges against him. So, I have got to get some stuff done before I leave, so, best get with it. See ya laters!


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

Ruthi said:


> Carol, you better be a fly, cause I swat any spider I see. Creep me out, lol. Anyhow, yeah, I think I need the advice of a vet whom I can trust. I like the old school vet, and I dont hold any bad feelings. He is old and he runs the place by himself, and he charges very little. I talked to him once about it and he said he is just staying in the practice to help out people who cant afford the expensive vets, and to help out the animals that other wise wouldnt even get to a vet because of that. I think that is wonderful of him. No matter what this vet says, I will hold no grudges against him. So, I have got to get some stuff done before I leave, so, best get with it. See ya laters!


Hehe, Ruthi! I REALLY like your regular vet, too. That's really nice of him, to provide vet services for people with very little money. And maybe he's not the best vet in the world, but he looks fairly competent for the simpler stuff.

But steroids are SO tricky, and can have very bad consequences if not used to perfection, for the individual dog.

I've been on forums for canine diabetes for the last four years and more, and learned, for instance, that using steroids, especially, incorrectly, has triggered diabetes in dogs - probably, those who are genetically predisposed to diabetes. You DO NOT want Gabby to get diabetes! It's a huge job to manage well, though it can be managed, and dogs can live a normal lifespan with that disease.

Maybe one day you can learn to tolerate the NICE spiders; haha! But meantime, just to be safe, I'll be a fly instead of a spider. Since I'll be a fly, I want you to swat any spider you see! I don't want to get eaten by a spider! [Rolling on the floor, laughing my a$$ off!]

So I'll be there with you and Gabby! Wishing you huge good luck!

Tue, 3 Apr 2012 08:43:54 (PDT)


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## Ruthi (Nov 10, 2011)

Ha, I saw you there. Well, I am pretty bummed out. This vet confirmed the diagnosis, and she said my other vet was right on the money for what he had done for her. She said she would have done the same thing. I showed her the meds and what had happened. She said if that shot didnt help her, the pred. prob. wouldnt help either. She said since Gabby is so young, and having allergies so severly, that she would probably get worse, and always have to be on meds. She said there was two diff ways we could go. Atopica is one med. She said it would prob work for about a yr, and then,she would have to have blood work done and put on strongers med. I just dont know. If she has allergies, I would think that the shot would have done something? She said those normally work and last from 3 to 6 wks. Same thing with pred. She said I could try using Benedryl, but it only works in about 25 percent of dogs. She said that the pred. wouldnt help if the shot hadnt helped. I dont know.


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

Ruthi said:


> Ha, I saw you there. Well, I am pretty bummed out. This vet confirmed the diagnosis, and she said my other vet was right on the money for what he had done for her. She said she would have done the same thing. I showed her the meds and what had happened. She said if that shot didnt help her, the pred. prob. wouldnt help either. She said since Gabby is so young, and having allergies so severly, that she would probably get worse, and always have to be on meds. She said there was two diff ways we could go. Atopica is one med. She said it would prob work for about a yr, and then,she would have to have blood work done and put on strongers med. I just dont know. If she has allergies, I would think that the shot would have done something? She said those normally work and last from 3 to 6 wks. Same thing with pred. She said I could try using Benedryl, but it only works in about 25 percent of dogs. She said that the pred. wouldnt help if the shot hadnt helped. I dont know.


Oh, I'm sorry, Ruthi. But I suggest - DON'T GIVE UP! I'll look up Atopica; I've heard of it, but never looked it up. You can look it up, too ;-)

First, I'm glad this vet confirmed what your regular vet said and did. That's very encouraging! Really!

I think there's stuff you can do for Gabby that might give her a lot of relief, and work for a long time. I know Camellia is doing really well, since my vet started her on this program, and what I'd do is, put together an email, to send your regular vet AND this new vet, to ask questions.

What I'll do is, describe the program Camellia is on, and I give you permission to quote what I write; that might make it easier to ask about it.

Here in Canada, I have to buy this DOUXO shampoo and spray from my vet, as it's not sold elsewhere. But I believe in the U.S. you can buy it from Amazon, and maybe other places, too, where it's a lot cheaper than it is here in Canada

Did the new vet give you a name for the diagnosis? I'm curious and interested.

She's right that "Benadryl doesn't do much for dogs;" I remember my vet saying the same thing, years ago. HOWEVER! Used as part of the program I'm about to describe, it DOES help, and quite a lot! For one thing, it helps keep Camellia from reverse-sneezing, which is a common symptom that results from environmental allergies. I call it "shuffing," which is a made-up word, from "Stress-huffing," which is what I called it before I knew it was reverse-sneezing. By the way, my vet identified it as reverse-sneezing from a video clip I took to her.

Ready? Here goes - I'll do my best to describe the program, and you have my permission to copy this to both your vets.

First, useful links:

http://www.douxo.us/dermatology/douxo-dermatology-dogs-allergies-shampoo.html

That page has other links on it that you should look at; they go into detail about how to use the shampoo and spray, and also have techie information about the products.

They also say that after the missing skin barrier has been replaced, you can slack off some on the baths and spray - but my vet wants me to keep up weekly baths and twice-weekly sprays because Camellia is so sensitive, so that's what we're doing. (Today was Bath/Spray day, and Camellia and I together learned how to make the baths more comfortable than they used to be for Camellia, so now she's not minding the baths much at all.)

Bersides that, my vet suggested the following (I'm going back to drag this out of what I sent before):

Use antihistamines. You can try different ones, and see how things go. My vet really thinks the Cetirizine hydrochloride (Reactine, given once daily) is very effective for many dogs. Since Gabby is ten pounds I'd give half a 10 mg caplet once a day of that stuff. (Camellia is nearly twice Gabby's weight.) My vets said it's okay for Camellia to be on the antihistamines long-term.

Copying from before:

About supplements, fish oil (preferably, WILD salmon oil), also true. When you give salmon oil, you need to give Vitamin E, too. Something about salmon oil being slightly on the inflammatory side, and the Vitamin E calming it.

Dosages - according to the handout my vet gave me:

Salmon Oil Capsules: 1000 mg (usually one capsule) per 5 Kg body weight (Gabby, at 10 pounds, weighs about 4.5 Kg) - so one capsule - daily. give with food, and split between meals if fed more than once daily). Work up to the dose gradually - possible side effects include soft stool, gas or tummy upset. Not all dogs are able to take the full dose, and if not, give the maximum dose that is well tolerated. (courtesy of my vet, Dr.Amanda Booth).

Continuing from the same handout: Vitamin E capsules: 200 iu (International Units) daily for small dogs. I bought 100-iu capsules; you might have to search for that size; often sold in 400 iu or 200 iu, but best given twice a day, so the 100 iu size works out better. I'm assuming, of course, you feed at least twice a day. (I gave 100 iu with each meal).

To summarize, then, you give the supplements, use antihistamines, AND give a weekly bath with DOUXO calming shampoo and spray twice weekly with DOUXO spray.

My vet (Dr. Amanda Booth) never suggested using steroids with Camellia. Maybe she knew they wouldn't help much.

Also, I want to dig out (again) the link to the page that explains about the missing skin barrier. Remember, this is a fairly recent discovery, and not all vets are likely to be aware of it - that is, of the idea of a missing skin barrier.

The shampoo and spray REPLACE that missing barrier!

For very sensitive dogs like Camellia, antihistamines may also be necessary, and the salmon-oil and Vitamin E are likely to help as well.

Now to look up the link again to the page that explains this (which my vet gave me).

Here are the links:

*** quoting self ***

The shampoo and spray:

(same link I gave before, for DOUXO)

here's a shorter version of that link:

http://tinyurl.com/6zvmrsr

(I'm giving you the shorter link because the longer one might break when you send email).

If you click on the data-sheet links on the pictures of the shampoo and the spray you get more information, including how to use the stuff.

And, the link my vet pointed out to me that covers (very briefly) this failed skin-barrier problem:

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=PRINT&A=1535

A shorter version of that link:

http://tinyurl.com/4y8lfht

Meantime, if you get to feeling too desperate I imagine you could try the prednisone you have on hand. I'd ask the new vet about the safety of starting it now, on top of the stuff that was injected, and ask about proper dosage for the short course of prednisone, for Gabby's weight. If you DO start it, of course, you then need to finish it.

Again the short-course method my vets always told me to use - for a dog who weighs twice what Gabby weighs (Kwali: 22 pounds):

5 mg twice a day for five days;
5 mg once a day for five days after that;
5 mg every other day after that - I believe it was actually only another five days, not ten.

Looking for my back files, I can't now find Kwali's dose; I know I lost my Calendarscope data, where I had it all laid out, day-by-day, when i changed computers. But I'd like to know what your NEW vet would recommend as a dose for the kind of short-course I laid out here (and she could also say how many tablets (or half-tablets or quarter-tablets - total).

I can tell you this. It DOES take a while for this shampoo-spray / oils / antihistamines program to take hold. You need to have faith and patience. I believe you should see marked improvement in five to six weeks. I'm assuming Gabby's problem is similar to Camellia's - that missing skin barrier.

Here's a Patience Hat for you:

http://www.coherentdog.org/tidberries6.php

And here's a Patient's Hat for Gabby, from Kumbi, who stayed up all night making it (it's a copy of his).

http://www.coherentdog.org/tidberries5.php

I think that does it for now. I'm here for you! You may cry on my scrawny, bony shoulder. But Camellia is waving her Magnificent Magic Wand in your favor and she's NOT reverse-sneezing right now (and has done relatively little of it lately).

Tue, 3 Apr 2012 16:01:44 (PDT)


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

*Additions to my just-previous post - Gabbys scratching*

Okay, I looked up Atopica. Seems to be cyclosporine (a kind of antibiotic, I believe).

Well, an immuno-suppressant. It looks a bit nasty. I see that the link to the printed page I sent you to really DOESN'T explain about the missing skin barrier, but the DOUXO link DOES.

So it's the DOUXO link that is likely to be most useful to you, if you want to avoid tricky drugs like Atopica.

Referring back to the program my vet put Camellia on, here's a short quote from near the end of her handout.

"Other stronger itch fighting medications such as Prednisone or Cyclsporine may still be needed, but usually at much lower doses or less often than they would otherwise be needed.

The handout mentions that baths and sprays need to be faithfully done - that applications shouldn't be missed.

And it says the shampoo and spray work best if started while the allergies are still mild to moderate (before they worsen, which apparently they tend to do with age, as your new vet suggested.)

I'm working my way backward through this handout, which I recieved on 25 October last year (2011); the day my vet diagnosed Camellia with atopic dermatitis. It says, "dermatologists showed that both dogs and people with Atopy have a deficiency in a normal lipid (fatty) layer that we all have on our skin called Phytosphingosine."

And continuing; "This layer, in a normal dog, has 2 functions. It traps moisture in the skin cells, preventing dry skin, and it also acts as a barrier, protecting the immune system beneath the skin from exposure to the allergens on the surface and thus decreasing allergic reaction."

Notice she says this discovery is only about two years old! It may not yet be widely known, and my vet (Dr. Amanda Booth) says that what is on the printed sheet I linked you to in my previous post is the OLDER information.

So really, Ruthi, I think there's good hope for Gabby, if you can get this DOUXO shampoo and spray, and use it regularly, according to the instructions on the DOUXO site i pointed to in my previous post.

You're welcome to copy this post to your vets, too.

Camellia say, Hey, this is good stuff! It DID take about five weeks, while also giving antihistamines, before the shampoo and spray really took hold, and I'm expecting this is a life-time program for Camellia.

I'm SO glad the dermatologists kept working to see what they could find out, and came up with this information - and that there's this product that, at least for Camellia, is immensely helpful.

Love ya,
Tue, 3 Apr 2012 17:01:06 (PDT)


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## Ruthi (Nov 10, 2011)

Thanks Carol for all your help.


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

Ruthi said:


> Thanks Carol for all your help.


Most welcome, Ruthi. Please keep us posted on how you and Gabby are doing! You know how much sympathy I have for both of you, since Camellia and I have been through a lot of this too.

Tue, 3 Apr 2012 19:59:43 (PDT)


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