# Choke Collars



## radar_jones (May 6, 2007)

OK How many of us out there use a Choke Collar with our Hav's? Radar doesn't really seem to need one but I want to get him used to walking beside me and not ahead of me and not lunging ahead. He does sometimes get anxious but he's only been out a few times but having said that I still want him to know who's boss when we do go out on walks for his own safety among other things. 

I feel they (Choke Collars) are useful when needed. Cesar Milan said a Dog who recognizes the PacK Leader should never be allowed to walk ahead during walks. I saw an episode the other day where he said that. Sorry if this was on another thread but I thought we could get a general consensus of who uses one and who doesn't.

Thanks.....:biggrin1: 

Derek


----------



## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

I dont think that I would ever use a choke colllar on my havs. I just think that they are too small & have fragile necks. We found that the harness works really good - I would try that first.
Laurie


----------



## radar_jones (May 6, 2007)

Yeah I have Radar on a Harness for now. He seems to respond pretty good if I give him a quick correction. I do what Cesar Milan recommended. I give Radar the correction right away so he can't exhibit the behaviour. I find if I do it fast enough he won't get far enough to try it again. Like Nipping it in the bud so-to-speak. He's learning and it's pretty early in the process.

Derek


----------



## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I only use it for special training situations, but not for walking. I think a chain choke collar would be too much for loose lead walking. If you want to train your dog not to pull ahead, try doing it by the method our trainer calls "the crazy walk". As soon as the dog begins to pull, you immediately turn around and go the other direction. He will get the idea and go with you. If he pulls ahead, you turn again and go back the direction you started. This can take several attempts before he figures it out, and in the meantime, the neighbors will all think you look crazy, hence, the name.


----------



## marbenv (May 31, 2007)

Kimberley,

I'm going to try that next time I go out with Oscar. He loves to take off running as hard as he can until he hits the end of the 6' lead. I'm afraid he's going to break his neck!!

Marsha


----------



## radar_jones (May 6, 2007)

Yeah I would think that there would be the risk of that happening.....ouch. Besides I have heard that the Hav's respond better to a harness than an actual collar sometimes when training to walk properly and then I guess if they are being problematic then a choke collar would be necessary. I don't want to use one but will if necessary and then we can go back to a harness or another style of collar.

Derek


----------



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I would say only about 5% of people use choke collars how they should be used. To be honest, most people don't even put them on their dogs correctly! They usually have them on the wrong way so the dog is choked the entire time and it doesn't release! Hence you get a lot of small dogs with damage. I would never have a choke collar on either of my girls for longer than 15 mins first of all. It is a tool for training not something you use for a walk. When I compete with Belle and Dora, I have a training collar on them but that is about it. Even when I practice, I use a buckle collar or usually, they are naked! I only use the training collar when I feel like they need an actual correction. 

Amanda


----------



## Sunnygirl (Jun 1, 2007)

After we finish puppy kindergarten and he's 6 months old, I was thinking of taking Nico to an obedience class in the area that's been highly recommended. However, on the list of supplies needed for the class is Training Collar (Metal Choke/Prong). That worried me, so I'm curious to know what others think of these. I walk Nico using a harness or a buckle collar. He's MUCH better on walks after our camping trip last week when I had plenty of time to do the "crazy walk" around the lake with no one watching other than people who don't know me and won't see me again!!


----------



## radar_jones (May 6, 2007)

Yeah I wouldn't feel good about using the collar for the entire walk. Radar doesn't wear a collar in the house or anywhere else. For walks it's the harness. 

The Choke Collar is pretty easy to use I can't believe anyone could misuse it but then again we still have people doing things such as abusing animals in this world so how can we expect them to be able to use a choke collar right!!!

I don't even own a choke collar yet. I plan on giving Radar a chance with the harness. He's young and still pretty influencial.

Derek


----------



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Well remember obedience heeling is a lot different than just going on a controled walk down the street. I do let my dogs walk in front of me on a regular walk. I use a flexi lead and they have on harnesses. My dogs know how to properly heel for obedience too. All I have to say is "get heel" and both of them will do it. It is a game!

In obedience- a very small area of what is considered heeling position! Dora needs to keep the area between her nose to her shoulder to my leg. So training collars and prong collars are used to teach precision. I have used both after I honestly felt my dog was trained and I would say prong collars are probably better for the average person and small dog. It corrects the dog a lot faster and a lot safer. People think they look more cruel but I have seen training collars do a lot more damage than prongs. I have also seen a lot of people with out of control dogs on regular collars. Don't ever be a afraid to tell a trainer you aren't willing to do something. If that trainer is any good, they will have other ways/tools to help you train your dog! Only do what you are comfortable doing with your dog.

Amanda


----------



## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Amanda, obedience heeling is brutal! LOL! (I say that with much admiration for those that can teach it.)

As a matter of manners, I don't let my dogs pull on the leash. They can walk ahead of me, and I prefer that because it shows their confidence, but I don't like them to put tension on the lead.


----------



## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Kimberly, I am with you. My guys walk in front of us, which is fine by me, but the beginning of the walk is always pulling, pulling, pulling- until they finally realize that it only hurts them & I AM NOT GOING ANY FASTER!! When they finally relax and walk nicely it is so pleasant. How can you teach them not to pull at first?? I know some people say just stop, well that works but the second we start again, they are pulling. Granted, when walking three together I get the feeling that they feel it is a competion.
Laurie


----------



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Kimberly,
It was a lot easier to teach my maltese who forges ahead than Dora who wants to walk about a foot behind. I always joke Cesar would give Dora a perfect score. Isabelle only beat Dora by a half point in offleash (where you truly find out how you heel!) which suprised me. 

I probably let Belle get away with more pulling than I should but she is 5lbs so it doesn't look like much! I know she pulls too much though because when I put on the duel dog lead, Dora will stand there and not let Belle move to show her who is the bigger dog!

Amanda


----------



## radar_jones (May 6, 2007)

I guess the Obedience Training would be for the Show Ring for Obedience. I wouldn't be using that method all the time but Radar seems to get the Heel command when I give it. He's still getting used to things.

Derek


----------



## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

We were working with a trainer with Jasper- because he would get very anxious and aggressive with cars and sometimes people on our walks. the sweet little boy would turn into a bucking tazmanian devil. She suggested a slip lead. We used a traditional leather slip lead for a while but thought it was staying tight. we recently got these martingale slip leads and it still works but seems gentler.

http://www.sitstay.com/cgi-bin/sdisp.cgi/EQM12.lg.jpg:EQM12.cl.lg.jpg


----------



## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

I used a choke collar on my bigger dogs, but once they knew what I expected of them, I switched them to a harness. I think a choke is too harsh for a Hav, unless you are really having a problem. My trainer suggested training them with a collar and then switching to a harness. I used a collar in class and it worked great. 

If you want them to walk beside you, just shorten the length of the leash so they can't pull ahead. Use treats and the heal command to make sure they stay next to you.


----------



## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

I have used both the choke chain and prong collars on my GSD's and Lab. I haven't had to use anything other than a plain collar on Sam in our training. He is very eager to please.


----------



## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Havtahava said:


> I only use it for special training situations, but not for walking. I think a chain choke collar would be too much for loose lead walking. If you want to train your dog not to pull ahead, try doing it by the method our trainer calls "the crazy walk". As soon as the dog begins to pull, you immediately turn around and go the other direction. He will get the idea and go with you. If he pulls ahead, you turn again and go back the direction you started. This can take several attempts before he figures it out, and in the meantime, the neighbors will all think you look crazy, hence, the name.


This is almost exactley what I had to do to get Riley to heel. The only difference was I would walk fast ahead of him and as soon as he cought up in the heel position I would click my clicker and throw a treat on the ground and turn to start walking in the other direction he of course would follow wanting another treat. As soon as he caught on to this game I would try and go a little farther with him at my side before I clicked and if he went ahead of me no click no treat and I turned and started walking in the other direction. This was basically targeting him to know that when he was at my side that is what I wanted. Now if I could just get him to realize it is o.k. to heel on my right side as well as my left side life would be good.
I am in the same boat as Amanda both my boys know the differnce when we are on a walk or working, I like them in front of me when we are walking, I have a bad habit of tripping over them sometimes when on a brisk walk. Yes I'm a clutz..LOL


----------



## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Leeann, that's a brilliant method for teaching heel.


----------



## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

*No to choke collar here...*

One of mistakes we made with Quincy our HYPER 35 pound Beagle was using the choke on walks. Sadly I didn't do any research before taking him to training and we were told to buy choke collars and we just never stopped using it. Duh. Between that and how he would wrench his neck to reach food on our island, he had pinched nerves in his neck by the time he was 10. I switched to a harness and he walked soo much better.

I called around for training and found one that does not use correction collars for puppy class. When they do use them it's for large breed and certain situations. That was important to me as I have learned my lesson with Quincy.

We taught Winston to walk using a harness [otherwise we dragged him by his neck....ouch]. Now that he's good at it we graduated to the collar.

Ian Dunbar in his book suggests stopping whenever they pull on the leash. Start once there is slack again. They'll figure out that slack = walk; pull = stop. Haven't tried it yet as Winston is usually behind me.

Love the crazy walk descriptions by you gals! Leeann, I bet it's funny to watch you guys!! LOL.

Trish


----------



## Lati49 (Jul 15, 2007)

Hey Guys,
Thanks for the choke chain education. I have been doing it all wrong.
Poor Bran


----------



## radar_jones (May 6, 2007)

Yeah I think that the choke chain is defintely a "Last Resort" solution to any heeling problem that we might have with our Hav's.

Derek


----------



## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

I use a harness with Biscuit. At my obedience class they recommended a particular harness with the leash attached at the front of the chest, which redirects the dog and automatically stops the pulling issue. I'm sorry, I forget the name at the moment.

I do need to work with him more on not pulling when wearing a regular harness or just a collar. 

Gosh, I feel like a choke chain is way too heavy-duty for any small dog, esp. a puppy-----they have such small delicate necks, throats, and airways. I read in one Havanese book that owners should only use a harness, period, or risk throat & airway problems later in life from the pulling they do on a regular collar. Biscuit used to choke and cough as a puppy when he used just the collar w/leash, so I got the message and switched to a harness. 

And isn't it perhaps a better idea to train a dog to walk on leash with the crazy walk, treats, patience etc., than just simply yank a chain? Cesar Milan is good in many ways, he has great presence of mind and calmness when he works with dogs, but his training isn't one-size-fits-all, and perhaps is more appropriate to larger dogs. Just my thoughts  .


----------



## radar_jones (May 6, 2007)

Maybe the Hav's really know how to walk right on the Lead/Harness and they are just waiting for us to trust them to do it right. Perhaps they want the attention and that's why they Act-Up like a child does.

Derek


----------



## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Part of using a choke chain is that you need to know _how_ to use it. If you haven't been shown where to place it, you can hurt the dog. You definitely don't want that to happen.


----------



## radar_jones (May 6, 2007)

I wouldn't think that the choke collar would really do too much damage if used right. Also the Hav is not going to really get hurt if the weight they are putting on the collar is the only pull they are getting. I wouldn't be pulling on it at the same time they are exerting their own body weight on the collar. That would be borderline cruelty.

Derek


----------



## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Amanda, I learn a lot reading your posts! Thank you! 

I also love what Leeann has written about heeling and wanted to thank you too, for your input. 

I have been wondering if I'm 'walking' the dogs properly. We've learned how to teach them 'heel' and so when I walk them with a coupler, I make them heel for almost the entire walk. Ricky listens very well and will sometimes get behind because he wants to sniff everything, but Sammy pulls and pulls as he is so eager to get moving. I'm wondering if maybe I need to relax a bit and not have them heel for most of our 20-30 min. walks. Am I being too demanding?

What I want in our dogs, is for them to be close at all times and not to wander off, even if on leash, doing their own thing. I will say 'stop' and they both stop on a dime and Ricky immediately does a 'sit'. Sammy just looks around and it takes a few tries to get him to sit, but he does it. They usually don't move until I say 'heel' again, maybe 10 seconds, maybe a min. later. I "test" them as we walk around the neighborhood. 

I'm not sure if I want them to both be ahead of us and paying little attention to us, but I also dont' want them to always be "working" at the commands...... I'm not sure I'm wording this right. Sounds like I'm just rambling...... big surprise!!! LOL

What do you think?


----------



## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

BTW, I also agree that the choke collar can be a very good training tool, but not something to use too often or for everything. I also think you really need to know what you are doing. We all benefit from puppy 'kindergarten' and the obedience classes, so long as the schools we go to click nicely with our own beliefs and feel right. I learned a LOT from a couple of great books even before Ricky was here and I still refer to them often, as they help too.


----------



## boo2352 (Dec 18, 2006)

I take MacGyver on a 20-30 minute walk every morning. We always start with heeling, but I alternate with "free" when I switch the leash to my left hand and say the word. He knows he can go sniff and wander where he wants (within reason). I periodically do a "come" and give him a treat, so he's always keeping one eye on me and not wandering too far. This way he's not heeling the whole walk but getting plenty of practice at it.


----------



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I would make it into a game but have a release word with them. I want the girls to know when to get near me (when we walk across the street or go downtown/campus area with lots of people) They know when they hear "okay" we are done working and they can sniff and be dogs. I do honestly let them get ahead of me about 10 feet on the flexi when we walk normally. I am okay with this. They don't really pull and if they do, that is when I correct. Dora likes to sniff a lot especially new places, if we aren't being active I am okay with this. She also knows "leave it" and will do it usually. Otherwise I will go the other way with a leash correction or grab her harness and take her out of the area.

I think you need to decide what you are okay with on your walks and then correct if not. Just make sure you are consistent so they get the idea. Like if you want them to sit down before they cross the street and they don't, be sure they know what you mean. I would put them in a sit then "good sit" and "okay." Try it a few times and when they do it automatically make a big fuss. 

As to good heeling, when I do it, I expect Dora's full attention on me, I wouldn't do it without giving her my full attention either. So this means, I can't be talking to the neighbors, looking around, etc. And I would never do this for longer than 5 minutes without a break. I have done this outside and added other distractions (putting the maltese tied to a post is the best one yet!) but we break, reward and play too.

Amanda


----------



## marbenv (May 31, 2007)

Marj,

What books do you use? Oscar will be going to Puppy classes in a month or so, but I want to do some work with him now. He already sits (i'm using a clicker) and I'm teaching him come--which sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't, but a good book might help. I had one on clicker training from the library, but it confused me with the wlking, heel, stuff. Maybe I'm just dense.

Marsha


----------



## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

I use "okay" for a release word also. Riley hates to sit-stay (too boring for him) I will get him in position and he will just sit & stare at me, if I go for too long he starts making these grrr noises at me. I have never seen anyone jump out of a relese so fast when i say "okay" its a hoot.

I'm going to have to try tying Monte up to a tree and see if Riley stays in a heel as we walk by, that should be funny but it sounds like a good training tool, thanks.


----------



## Elin (May 5, 2007)

I don't see the need for using choke collars on a havanese. When you are teaching your dog to not pull, it is better to praise or give it a treat when the dog does it right, rather than hurting it when it pulls. And if it does pull, you just stop or walk in the opposite direction. Then the dog will realize that pulling doesn't get him where he wants, and that _not _pulling can even be fun  There's no need for a choke collar in obedience class either. I have taught my dogs to heel using just a regular collar, and praise/treats.

When we go for walks I want them to enjoy the walk, and if there is a situation where they need to be close to me (passing another dog, crossing the street etc.) I tell them to heel. Then I say "okay" and they can walk more freely again.

People who work as physical therapists for dogs, say they can tell wether a dog is normally wearing a choke collar or not, just by touching the dogs neck. Dogs using choke collars usually have very tense neck muscles.

My dogs doesn't need to walk behind me to know I'm the leader. They already know that because I'm the one who's in charge of the treats, the toys, the food and the fun. In other words I'm controlling all the resources.

I believe - and I have experienced - that you can achieve so much just by making the dog understand that doing the right things is fun and rewarding, and doing the wrong things doesn't get him anywhere. A havanese is very sensitive to your body language and the tone of your voice, and they are also very intelligent. You don't need to physically punish them, to make them understand something. If your dog won't listen to you unless you're hurting it, then you probably don't communicate properly with your dog.


----------



## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Thank you, everyone! I do see how using 'okay' or a release word would work fine for me and let them know that they can just be dogs, as Amanda says. I had mixed feelings on many of our walks and so just relaxing a little bit about the whole heeling business makes me feel good already. Elin, I agree with you, although I do know that I have to correct with my pups from time to time.

I forgot to mention in my last posts that I love your 'crazy walk' Kimberly!! I can see how that would work very well and I will try it next time. Too bad what the neighbors think! LOL


----------



## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Marj, my neighbors all think I'm playing a game with my dog when they see me doing it. If you want to see something funny, go into a Petsmart when they are on that particular week for their Puppy Kindergarten class. It is hilarious to see a bunch of people doing that up and down the aisles of the store.


----------



## cfabisch (Jan 17, 2007)

I know you are all going to think I'm terrible, but I used a prong collar to train my first havanese. We started with a buckle collar but he'd just strain against it and he's so petite (8 lbs), the slightest tug sent him flying backward. The trainer suggested a prong collar (to my initial horror). I had used them to train my Great Dane because of how powerful she is but couldn't imagine putting one on my little guy. I decided to give it a try and voila! no more pulling. He yiped at first when he did his usual straining against the collar thing, but realized very quickly that if he didn't strain, he wouldn't feel any pinch. It did the trick and we haven't used it since (although I think he could use a reminder  )

Cathy


----------



## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

marbenv said:


> Marj,
> 
> What books do you use? Oscar will be going to Puppy classes in a month or so, but I want to do some work with him now. He already sits (i'm using a clicker) and I'm teaching him come--which sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't, but a good book might help. I had one on clicker training from the library, but it confused me with the wlking, heel, stuff. Maybe I'm just dense.
> 
> Marsha


You're not "dense" Marsha! lol It is tricky using a clicker because you could be rewarding the wrong behavior, but once you get the hang of it, it is a great tool for training! I first read "The Idiot's Guide to Positive Training for Dogs" before we got Ricky. I used it often, referred to it when I had questions too. It taught me to understand dog language and behavior and I highly recommend it.

Another book that I love to refer to is "Puppy Kindergarten" by Gwen Bailey, "7 setps to the perfect puppy" it says. There is also Karen Pryor's book on "Clicker Training", she being the best source of info and advice about it, I would think.

Not all puppy classes work this way and some use the more traditional punishment-based training methods so you might want to check that out before actually going. I paid for a 6-week class at one place and only went to 3 because from day one I saw they were not at all on the same page as I was!

good luck!


----------



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Cathy,
You aren't horrible! I have used a prong on my havanese and my 4lb maltese! I think the prong should really be something that a trainer watches and shows you how to use. I have seen some people do horrible damage with a prong. Not to say you can't with a buckle collar but I have seen infections and people use it in a nasty way towards the dog. I think it took Dora once on a prong to stay glued to my side. I was horribly scared to use it but I ordered a micropong and put it on my arm and had someone lead me around. I tend to do this with all training tools before I decide whether or not they could be beneficial and the prong was- especially on my maltese who thinks her little body can yank you all over the place. I used it more for obedience than for everyday type walking but it changed her perspective on things and I could give a correction which I would never do with a buckle collar on such a tiny dog.

Amanda


----------



## Elin (May 5, 2007)

Sorry but my English vocabulary is limited. A prong, is that a collar with inward spikes? That's what came up when I googled it. 

But why make your dogs hurt just to make them heel? It's not that difficult to make your dog heel perfectly using only positive reinforcement. Why use pain when there are other fun and painless methods to achieve the same thing? I still don't get it.


----------



## Elin (May 5, 2007)

Amanda, I'm glad to see that you test these things on yourself before you use them on your dog. Everybody should do that.


----------



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Elin,
I would have to disagree with only using positive reinforcement to teach obedience heeling. I tried all positive and it didn't work for me. Well it did if I had a cookie in my hand but as soon as I lost that or the dog discovered something better or more interesting, I lost! I think it is hard to have your dog heel well in obedience without corrections. I really tried the first way-I used a clicker for awhile and couldn't get it accomplished. Belle pushes forward and Dora lags behind. Belle was easier to get more reaction with the clicker but when we got to walk thru and matches without food, she knew it! I think it took Dora once on the prong collar to understand it, it took my maltese about 3 times! It might just be that I am not as good at timing with the clicker but it was hard for me to do it without corrections. To this day, I still have issues with my maltese forging when she gets excited in the ring. But I also push her forward in the agility ring so things even out!

Amanda


----------



## Elin (May 5, 2007)

Teaching heeling without any other corrections than the word "no" worked fine with my two dogs. It also works fine for many people I know, including those competing in obedience. I guess in some cases it takes a little more time and effort, but I think it is worth it. 

The way we see these things probably has a lot to do with culture. For instance in Nothern Europe it is not common to use prongs. The Norwegian Kennel Klub has prohibited the use of prongs in all their classes and trials (gun dog, obedience, agility, etc.). In Denmark prongs are illegal all together.


----------



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Elin,
They aren't allowed in the competition ring here. You can use a choke chain in obedience and rally not in agility though. It is interesting that you say that cause one of my training buddies is actually from Norway. She grew up with GSDs and she uses them to train with. They just aren't allowed on AKC show grounds.

Amanda


----------



## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

I used a choke collar and a prong collar with my Cairn Terrorist but I have never felt the need with my Hav or Bichon mix. They have to be used correctly, getting the "pop" of the correction at the right time and only after the dog can be expected to know what it is being corrected for (IMHO). I also believe they should only be used for training, not controling, which seems to often be the case. This is when they lose their usefullness. Slowly the dog may begin to forge just a bit, and before you know it, the correction means nothing because they're used to the collar pinching them. To be effective, they need to be used with a loose leash and then popped as a correction only. 
Something I've found to really make a difference also is to get down to their level to make the correction. With such small dogs I don't think we realize what an angle we're giving the corrections at. We do the "crazy walk" too and it's very effective. There were times though that we'd get to that last driveway before our house and walk back and forth about 20 times doing 
the "crazy walk" before Cooper would stop pulling to get home. Add the bending over to correct with doing the crazy walk and you'll REALLY have the neighbors talking!
In our "adolescence obedience" class there are 8 dogs. The lab, wheaten terrier, and goldendoodle have pinch collars, the rest of the dogs are smaller and are using regular collars with 6' leads.

Beverly


----------



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Beverly,
My friend has 2 young Cairns and is competing with them right now! Boy are those little guys animated and boy can they be stubborn! In rally, her dog ran away from her and froze. She did jumping jacks, called him, etc. She knew she couldn't move her place but the little guy just laid down and watched everyone else! He can be so funny. I went and watched him do earth dog and he is a completely different dog.

I think as with any training method it might not be for you and your dog. I compete and want to continue to do so and the maltese can't really be popped- even a slight jerk can lift this dog off the ground and I think the damage could be big. The prong worked perfectly for that situation. I didn't think it was cruel at all. I love my dogs and they are pets first. When someone first suggested it, I thought it was insane too but then I tried it on myself and realized you dont jerk. The dog will self correct as it feels the collar. I put it on for about 5 mins and it took care of my problem. Isabelle has placed (usually first which is really high for a maltese!) in every competition she has been in. She now knows where heel position really is. At that point my dog would heel put just about a foot ahead of me. She would rush up and come back when I gave her my "ugh" command. She remembered it and I can say I havent had to put the collar on her since. Do I think they should be used on a regular walk- maybe once but not everyday like you see many people use them. I think it is a short time thing that you may want to use to train with. I also think it is incorrectly used as you don't jerk or pull the dog with a prong on at all. Keep your leash where you want your dog. I also had on my regular collar the same time as the prong and went back and forth. 

When I compete with my girls I do have a choke collar on, I dont remember the last time I used it. They are fully aware of what it is and act accordingly- people don't give dogs credit for how smart they are. Dora acts totally different at the obedience trial than she does on a romp in the park! 

I have been told that dogs kind of remember what to do when you go to an event based upon what they are dressed in! So Harness around the house walks, buckle for visiting the hospital/nursing homes, naked for agility- use a slip lead, etc.

Amanda


----------



## Elin (May 5, 2007)

ama0722 said:


> Elin,
> They aren't allowed in the competition ring here. You can use a choke chain in obedience and rally not in agility though. It is interesting that you say that cause one of my training buddies is actually from Norway. She grew up with GSDs and she uses them to train with. They just aren't allowed on AKC show grounds.
> 
> Amanda


Using a prong in regular obedience training is not common in Norway, and most obedience schools or training clubs don't allow it. It was more common maybe 20 years ago, but now it is rare. Now prongs are mostly used for training hunting dogs (but many hunting classes and clubs encourage their members not to use them). Using prongs for anything else than training is illegal in Norway.

But Amanda, I don't think that you are a cruel and horrible person just for using a prong, once or twince  I think it is great that you are training obedience and agility with your girls, and I hope you'll keep up the good work.


----------



## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

I hope I didn't give the impression that I think choke or prong collars are "cruel", that's not how I feel at all! I think it's cruel to use them inapproriately or when you don't know how to use them though. It sounds like I fell into that catagory myself! With the precious terrorists I had (yes 2, because they were so totally adorable) I worked privately with a trainer using both a choke collar and a pronge collar. I seemed to have better luck with the choke collar, probably because I wasn't using the pronge collar correctly, but that's how the trainer was teaching. Maybe not so much of a pop, but definately a snap.
anyway! I think they do have their place in training, but just as all people learn best by different methods, so do animals. Neither of my current dogs has needed anything like a choke collar just to learn to walk on a loose leash beside me.

I'm sure that if the wrong person would have seen the bridal apparatus I used with one of my horses, they would have called the Humane Society. It looked like something out of the dark ages, but anything less, and it was off to the races. 
The next horse I had had the most gentle mouth I never used anything more severe than a fat snaffle on him. 

I think you should use the least aggressive training tool necessary, but aggressive enough that you're not worried about losing control.

Someone please invent a keyboard that shuts down at 10PM! lol

Beverly


----------



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Oh no, I didn't mean to give the impression that I thought you guys were thinking I was cruel! I just wanted to share what honestly worked from my opinion. I don't think I was being cruel and that opinion along with the relationship with my girls is what matters!

I have worked with a lot of serious serious obedience trainers. I will tell you people would cringe at what they do to train their dogs especially a lot of the old school trainers. I have also learned you have to be in someone's foot steps with their dog before you can judge. I thought the electronic collars on the hunting dogs were cruel too. Still don't think it is something I would ever be able to do. Maybe possibly if I had such a stubborn dog that wouldn't ever come on a recall. My friend had to train his Airedale with one. The dog was just a big old stubborn guy and he thought it was going to be life and death so after he was bitten, he went to a professional and he said that little remote changed their relationship. 

Amanda


----------



## havaman (Aug 5, 2007)

my guys have gotten used to the choke collars for some walks. But i have started using the harness when i walk them 45 min to an hour. I find that the faster i walk the more obedient they become. Probably because they get more tired near the end of the walks. My big problem is with Jasper. He likes to pull at cars. I've tried the choke collar with him in particular. It hasn't seemed to work. Now i keep food rewards in my pocket and use those to keep them at my side. So far so good. But if a rabbit or squirrel runs by, all bets are off. they both pull and jerk like sled dogs.


----------



## radar_jones (May 6, 2007)

When I walk Radar for an Hour in the mornings he sometimes acts great with the Harness on and sometimes not. Mostly he's pretty good with it. I think becaue he's still small and the harness doesn't really fit too snugly he can't really feel it too tightly against his body so he forget's it's there. 

I sometimes will give Radar a slight "pull" with the lead along with a little "Tssssst" sound to alert him but I don't pull too hard. I think that sometimes if you were to really "yank" on the lead when they are so young and under-developed physically they might develop some bone problems if you were to constantly yank really hard on the lead it might be bad for the joints as other things such as their throats and nerves.

What I do is if Radar is lagging behind I simply say "come on let's go" with a slight pull or I will simply just give a non-verbal with the slight pull. Today what I did was I just kept walking and if Radar fell behind he would quickly catch up when he felt the lead pull and it seemed like he was being left behind.

One day I was walking him and he got a little too close and I knicked his foot with my shoe and he let out a little yelp. I was careful to watch him after that because he often strays with his "Line" or "Path" as I like to call it. 

If Radar gets too far ahead I simply use a method I read on here before. Sometimes I might just stop walking and stand still for a few seconds. I even tried walking the opposite way and it worked a little buit. I find the slight tug at the lead works or I just tighten the lead to my body more so Radar can't walk ahead and his attention in on the task at hand which is keepingn beside me. It works some days and others it's more of a tasking situation.


Sometimes I will speed up my pace and Radar will quickly fall in line beside me instead of getting ahead. I find that the energey you project when you walk with the Hav does get felt by them through the lead. Radar can feel the tension sometimes and that negatively affects him and he might tense up or he might no perform or walk as well as he might if I were more relazed on the walks.

Derek


----------



## JAEwton (Aug 7, 2007)

Hi Derek. I am training my little girl for show and that is what the instructor said we must use to train them. When she and I are just out walking I use a regular collar or her show lead. I find the choke collar get's stuck in her hair to much to use all the time.

Judy


----------



## radar_jones (May 6, 2007)

Hi there. Wecome aboard the Forum. So you use a choke collar for training for obedience for the show's then? I would do that as well. I haven't began using it on Radar for normal walks because of the problems it can cause sometimes with the throats of the Hav's plus Radar isn't bad enough on walks to use it yet. I like the choke collar don't get nme wrong but I would probably use it for as bigger dog. 

Derek


----------

