# Question about consultation with Sabine



## HannahBearsMom

Maccabee just started another round of antibiotics for GI issues. He has had a sensitive tummy since I brought him home and we have tried several different foods with very little improvement. Yesterday, I mentioned to our vet that I am considering switching him to a home cooked diet. He said that would probably be a good idea.

For those of you who have consulted with Sabine, did you do the 4, 8, or 12 week program? I'm hoping I can do the 4, but I'm wondering if I should do 8.

Laurie


----------



## Lizzie'sMom

I did the 12, but 4 should be sufficient. I never consulted her during that time. She will answer you if you email her with a question which I had to do when a brand of bone meal I used was no longer available. Good luck!


----------



## shimpli

I did the 4 weeks extended support. It was for Ache's allergies. I consulted Sabine many times, great and fast responses from her. In that time she was able to make some changes to the original diet. If you can go with 8 weeks, I think it is better. Good luck!


----------



## jemmax

I did the 4 weeks...


----------



## davetgabby

yeah if you have ANY questions please ask her , that's what she wants. Good going.


----------



## TilliesMom

I think we did the 4 weeks.... BUT 2 yrs later if and when I have a concern or quick question she happily helps and responds quickly, she is fantastic and so very helpful!!


----------



## Miss T

I'm thinking of working with a nutritionist but I need to wait at least a couple months as I just got slammed with a big vet bill. 
Are there any supplements that you guys use that you would recommend? T is really fussy and I end up giving her things like bene bac because I can syringe it into her mouth and don't have to try to add it to her food.


----------



## krandall

Miss T said:


> I'm thinking of working with a nutritionist but I need to wait at least a couple months as I just got slammed with a big vet bill.
> Are there any supplements that you guys use that you would recommend? T is really fussy and I end up giving her things like bene bac because I can syringe it into her mouth and don't have to try to add it to her food.


If you can't work with Sabine right now, I would AT LEAST find a holistic vet in your area that can help you balance her diet. A diet of pure muscle meat is not a complete diet for even an adult dog and an improperly balanced diet is likely to be a bigger problem with a growing puppy. You could end up with life-long health problems from an improperly balanced diet now, while she is a puppy. This is very important.


----------



## Miss T

She's not a puppy - she's a rescue approx 3-4 years old  but she still looks like a puppy which I love!!


----------



## emichel

Miss T said:


> I'm thinking of working with a nutritionist but I need to wait at least a couple months as I just got slammed with a big vet bill.
> Are there any supplements that you guys use that you would recommend? T is really fussy and I end up giving her things like bene bac because I can syringe it into her mouth and don't have to try to add it to her food.


Regardless of what you are feeding, you can't go wrong with giving probiotics. I use high potency (8 billion whatever it is) that is found in the refrigerated section of a health food or supplement store. Sabine also gives the option of using one in tablet form, but I thought that the refrigerated one might be more "alive". It supposedly tastes pretty good, too. Either way, I think it can only help with digestive issues, and won't hurt.

I second the idea of using Sabine, when you can afford it, even if you want to use commercial food. I hesitated for a while, thinking it seemed ridiculously extravagant to think my dog needed a canine nutrition specialist, especially considering that he is healthy, when there are many people in this very city who can't even afford to eat adequate diets. Then I figured that I am already serving the poor population in some ways, I already spend a fortune on toys and whatnot for my dog, and a healthy diet is more important than anything. Her rates are really reasonable, I think, and she is a good resource to have around for sure.

Also, and I'm pretty sure Sabine would agree, your dog is not going to die or suffer serious consequences if she eats a less than perfectly balanced diet for a short time, or temporarily, so don't worry too much if you can't consult w/her right away. Over time, though, it does matter a lot, so it is definitely worth the investment. Good luck!


----------



## HannahBearsMom

Please do you research before you hire a nutritionist for your dog. There are only a few board-certified vet nutritionists, and Sabine is not one of them. I'm not sure what her qualifications are. 

After hearing so many wonderful things about her, I hired her to formulate a diet for Maccabee. He has been on the diet for several weeks and appears to be doing well and gaining weight. But, the surgeon at the University of Tennessee Veterinary Medical Center was concerned about the diet so they asked their board-certified vet nutritionists to review it. The vet nutritionists at UT found deficiencies in the diet (plus the supplements she recommended). I emailed Sabine and rather than offer to re-evaluate the diet, or even discuss it, she insisted the diet has no deficiencies and if I don't trust her than she is not the right person to work with me. Period.

Sabine may be a great choice for you, but I did not have a good experience working with her.


----------



## davetgabby

emichel said:


> Regardless of what you are feeding, you can't go wrong with giving probiotics. I use high potency (8 billion whatever it is) that is found in the refrigerated section of a health food or supplement store. Sabine also gives the option of using one in tablet form, but I thought that the refrigerated one might be more "alive". It supposedly tastes pretty good, too. Either way, I think it can only help with digestive issues, and won't hurt.
> 
> I second the idea of using Sabine, when you can afford it, even if you want to use commercial food. I hesitated for a while, thinking it seemed ridiculously extravagant to think my dog needed a canine nutrition specialist, especially considering that he is healthy, when there are many people in this very city who can't even afford to eat adequate diets. Then I figured that I am already serving the poor population in some ways, I already spend a fortune on toys and whatnot for my dog, and a healthy diet is more important than anything. Her rates are really reasonable, I think, and she is a good resource to have around for sure.
> 
> Also, and I'm pretty sure Sabine would agree, your dog is not going to die or suffer serious consequences if she eats a less than perfectly balanced diet for a short time, or temporarily, so don't worry too much if you can't consult w/her right away. Over time, though, it does matter a lot, so it is definitely worth the investment. Good luck!


well said Eileen. The Now Brand probiotic that Sabine recommends is stabalized and lasts for the life of the pill. It is a pain to crush and sprinkle on the food, but I don't mind.


----------



## davetgabby

HannahBearsMom said:


> Please do you research before you hire a nutritionist for your dog. There are only a few board-certified vet nutritionists, and Sabine is not one of them. I'm not sure what her qualifications are.
> 
> After hearing so many wonderful things about her, I hired her to formulate a diet for Maccabee. He has been on the diet for several weeks and appears to be doing well and gaining weight. But, the surgeon at the University of Tennessee Veterinary Medical Center was concerned about the diet so they asked their board-certified vet nutritionists to review it. The vet nutritionists at UT found deficiencies in the diet (plus the supplements she recommended). I emailed Sabine and rather than offer to re-evaluate the diet, or even discuss it, she insisted the diet has no deficiencies and if I don't trust her than she is not the right person to work with me. Period.
> 
> Sabne may be a great choice for you, but I did not have a good experience working with her.


Lauri, sorry you weren't happy with your consultation. But in defence of her I have to say that she knows more than a lot of vet nutritonists, simply because she studies the dog food industry more. She knows what is in their foods how it's processed etc etc. She has a degree in animal nutrition and I have yet to hear of anyone that she didn't bend over backwords to help. The University of California Veteranary Services sends clients to her on a regular basis. Most vet nutritionists are in bed with the corporate giant pet food companies. If you look at the websites of American Academy of Veterinary Nutrition and the American College of Veterinary Nutrition ,you'll see that they are sponsored by thesed corp. giants . Then take a look at the crap that the giants sell to the public . She has met many clients who have been to them and were not happy . So it works both ways. Your advice to research any professional is true. You obviously didn't heed it yourself. One does not have to be a Veterinary Nutrtionist to be a good nutritionist, any more than one has to be a Veteranary Behaviorist to be a good behaviorist.


----------



## Suzi

HannahBearsMom said:


> Please do you research before you hire a nutritionist for your dog. There are only a few board-certified vet nutritionists, and Sabine is not one of them. I'm not sure what her qualifications are.
> 
> After hearing so many wonderful things about her, I hired her to formulate a diet for Maccabee. He has been on the diet for several weeks and appears to be doing well and gaining weight. But, the surgeon at the University of Tennessee Veterinary Medical Center was concerned about the diet so they asked their board-certified vet nutritionists to review it. The vet nutritionists at UT found deficiencies in the diet (plus the supplements she recommended). I emailed Sabine and rather than offer to re-evaluate the diet, or even discuss it, she insisted the diet has no deficiencies and if I don't trust her than she is not the right person to work with me. Period.
> 
> Sabine may be a great choice for you, but I did not have a good experience working with her.


 You said it yourself Maccabee appears to be doing well and gaining weight . Maybe you can just add the stuff your specialist thought was lacking and take away the other.? I always ask folks who have really old dogs what they feed them so many just feed cheap grocery store dog food and their dogs are 16 years old!. I think as long as your dog doesn't have allergies why all the fuss. I buy four star dog food but I sometimes wounder why.My biggest deal is worrying about salmonella and recalls.
What is it thistle that's good for improving liver functions? or their is a prescription medication. Is it also a low fat diet?


----------



## rokipiki

No dog nutritionis here! Just vet advice! The choice of superpremium kibble here comes down to Royal Canin, IAMS, Science Diet, Acana, Orijen, TOTW, Timberwolf, K9 and couple more. I had a lot of trouble with Roki's diet - soft, pale and greasy stools, unwillingness to eat... I tried everything! Three weeks ago I got really mad with new episode of lousy poop. I took a sample and took it to the vet. Day later results came - he was positive for giardia and cryptosporidia parasites! Tons of them! Two rounds of Panacur, lot of probiotics, three strong vit/min/protein shots, MSM supplement, black walnut tincture, nice cooked meat - and Roki is geting better and better! 
I have been fighting with his appetite for more than two years just to find out that my poor boy suffered bad stomach ache and a lot of painful abdominal cramps from - PARASITES! That was the main reason behind his anorexia! I am happy that Veterinary Institute iz my town got that new lab equipment that helped to diagnose those nasty bugs.


----------



## Miss T

thanks roki - I was wondering if T might have something like that - but her poop is perfect. I gave her some Nutro Ultra pate this morning she ate two bites and walked away. I don't stand a chance with kibble of any sort - any brand she won't even sniff it. Maybe when she was in the shelter they gave them kibble and she associates it with being there!! Who knows. Anyway yesterday I gave in and fed her some defrosted raw chicken. She gulped it down like it was nobody's business. I gave her fish oil, chlorophyll, probiotics, vit E and the multi to supplement. I'm going to get some raw dog food and see if she responds better to that.


----------



## Miss T

HannahBear - thanks for your insight into Sabine. I can't hire a nutritionist at the moment anyway but it's good to hear your experience. Out of interest what did the vet say the diet was deficient in? What supplements did Sabine recommend? Did you use Balance IT?


----------



## krandall

davetgabby said:


> Lauri, sorry you weren't happy with your consultation. But in defence of her I have to say that she knows more than a lot of vet nutritonists, simply because she studies the dog food industry more. She knows what is in their foods how it's processed etc etc. She has a degree in animal nutrition and I have yet to hear of anyone that she didn't bend over backwords to help. <snip>


Hi Dave, maybe I read her web site wrong, but I thought her degree was in "Animal Care". I thought she specifically said there were no degree programss offered in animal nutrition except for board certification for veterinarians. Maybe I misunderstood what she wrote?


----------



## davetgabby

krandall said:


> Hi Dave, maybe I read her web site wrong, but I thought her degree was in "Animal Care". I thought she specifically said there were no degree programss offered in animal nutrition except for board certification for veterinarians. Maybe I misunderstood what she wrote?


her site tells it all. she took two years at University of Guelph, which is world renowned for it's animal science. That's not the point here.


----------



## HannahBearsMom

Miss T said:


> HannahBear - thanks for your insight into Sabine. I can't hire a nutritionist at the moment anyway but it's good to hear your experience. Out of interest what did the vet say the diet was deficient in? What supplements did Sabine recommend? Did you use Balance IT?


I'm not going to bash Sabine on this forum. The diet she formulated was not good for him according to board-certified vet nutritionists at a prestigious veterinary school. Her response to my email was a real put-off. That's all I'm comfortable saying.

I can't simply add the deficient nutrients because the diet has too many calories per day. If I reduce the amount I'm feeding, he'll get less of all nutrients. We really need to start from scratch.

For the short term, i plan to feed him UT's home cooked liver diet and Hills L/D. In 3 to 6 months, I will think about a permanent diet.

Sabine's diet does not include BalanceIT. Rather it contains about $100 worth of individual supplements (which would last approximately a year). Thankfully, I can use many of the supplements myself.

I plan to continue feeding Maccabee a high quality diet, although my childhood Great Dane (life expectancy 6-7 years) lived to 13 years, on a diet of Alpo kibble and Kennel Ration canned food.


----------



## davetgabby

Lauri, exactly what I expected, Balance It (Proctor and Gamble ) is a one size fits all suppliment. 
...." I plan to continue feeding Maccabee a high quality diet, although my childhood Great Dane (life expectancy 6-7 years) lived to 13 years, on a diet of Alpo kibble and Kennel Ration canned food ". With an attitide like that , why bother at all?


----------



## HannahBearsMom

Karen: my understanding of qualifications I'd the same as yours.

Dave: just because we were very fortunate that Duchess lived to twice her life expectancy on a crappy diet, doesn't mean i want to take chances with Maccabee's health. I have more more resources available to do research than my parents had 46 years ago when they got Duchess. Just because I'm no longer comfortable working with Sabine, doesn't mean I'm throwing in the towel and heading to the grocery store to stock up on Purina Dog Chow.


----------



## davetgabby

that's fine, just don't bash someone you don't even know anything about.


----------



## davetgabby

http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...nary-nutritionists-favor-commercial-food.aspx


----------



## krandall

davetgabby said:


> her site tells it all. she took two years at University of Guelph, which is world renowned for it's animal science. That's not the point here.


I'm not saying anything negative about either Sabine or her web site. I just wanted to be clear about her degree/qualifications. I think she explains very clearly on her site why she DOESN'T have a degree in animal nutrition(because it doesn't exist, so how could she?) and what she has done to learn what she knows. There is nothing wrong with that.

There is also nothing wrong with her and the vets at UT disagreeing... I am friendly with a number of vets, all of whom I respect, and they don't always agree on a number of subjects. Lots of people on the forum are very happy with the experiences they have had with Sabine. Laurie is free to voice her own less positive experience, and let people decide for themselves. If Sabine's reputation can't hold up to a little criticism here and there, (and I think it can) she has a bigger problem. Sabine has a good business, and a lot of happy clients. Whether Laurie chooses not to use her services, I'm sure does not affect Sabine's business in a meaningful way.

I also think that Laurie, who has just been through a LOT with her puppy, deserves not to be second-guessed on the choices she makes for him based on the advice of the top professionals in this problem in the country. To make it sound like she just doesn't care isn't fair, when she has made the effort to go out of state, to find the very best care possible for Maccabee.


----------



## Zarika

I think one part of the problem is, there just isn't a lot of real, hard evidence-based research on dog nutrition. What research exists is mostly sponsored by the dog food industry, so while the studies are unlikely to be a cold hard lie, they are likely to be selectively published. (That is, good results get published, negative or null results don't.) On top of that, dog food companies encourage vets to push their products by offering free food, even during vet school, to the vet's own animals. So while board-certified nutritionists exist, it's not like their training is entirely unbiased. 

On the other side of the coin, while I know nothing about Sabine specifically, the studies to back up people with degrees in animal care who have the opinion that special diets with supplements are the way to go are just as weak. 

You can find countless mediocre studies to back up either viewpoint and counteract the other. There will likely never be quality-controlled, randomized, double-blinded research studies into dog nutrition, the financial incentive just isn't there. So, what people have to do is find out as much information as possible, think about the financial and time investment they're willing to make, and decide what makes sense for them and their pets. 

One thing to keep in mind, medicine and veterinary medicine is changing all the time. What we think is good and healthy today can be "proven" to be completely wrong tomorrow, and there are several examples of that today.


----------



## Miss T

I'm not going to try Balance It - if it's an additive to food she won't eat it. 
The only way I can get her to take supplements is as pills or syringe it into her mouth.
Just tried Raw Instinct the beef medallions and the chicken treats. She doesn't like either. Grrrrr.


----------



## Lola :)

krandall said:


> I'm not saying anything negative about either Sabine or her web site. I just wanted to be clear about her degree/qualifications. I think she explains very clearly on her site why she DOESN'T have a degree in animal nutrition(because it doesn't exist, so how could she?) and what she has done to learn what she knows. There is nothing wrong with that.
> 
> There is also nothing wrong with her and the vets at UT disagreeing... I am friendly with a number of vets, all of whom I respect, and they don't always agree on a number of subjects. Lots of people on the forum are very happy with the experiences they have had with Sabine. Laurie is free to voice her own less positive experience, and let people decide for themselves. If Sabine's reputation can't hold up to a little criticism here and there, (and I think it can) she has a bigger problem. Sabine has a good business, and a lot of happy clients. Whether Laurie chooses not to use her services, I'm sure does not affect Sabine's business in a meaningful way.
> 
> I also think that Laurie, who has just been through a LOT with her puppy, deserves not to be second-guessed on the choices she makes for him based on the advice of the top professionals in this problem in the country. To make it sound like she just doesn't care isn't fair, when she has made the effort to go out of state, to find the very best care possible for Maccabee.


Well said!


----------



## davetgabby

I'm not questioning Laurie's right to make a descion, but the way she said it. When you don't have a clue as to someones' expertise, you shouldn't be stating negative remarks about someone being better, just because they have a degree. I would tell you to find someone else too if you thought you couldn't trust my judgement.


----------



## HannahBearsMom

davetgabby said:


> I'm not questioning Laurie's right to make a descion, but the way she said it. When you don't have a clue as to someones' expertise, you shouldn't be stating negative remarks about someone being better, just because they have a degree. I would tell you to find someone else too if you thought you couldn't trust my judgement.


Dave, I never said UT was BETTER than Sabine. I said that I told her that the UT vet-nutritionists found deficiencies in the diet she formulated and they also said it contained twice the calories he needs. Her response was (paraphrased), I don't know what dietary recommendations they are using, my diet has no deficiencies, lots of people including vets and specialty practices use my services, if you feel you can't feed Maccabee my diet than obviously I am not the right person to work with you.

She didn't offer to take a second look at the diet she formulated. She didn't offer to speak with the treating vet or vet-nutritionist, she didn't ask for more information. She basically said if you don't like my diet and you want to listen to someone else, that's fine but obviously I'm not the right person to work with you.

I didn't respond to her highly defensive email, and I have no intention of doing so. After speaking with the folks at UT, I had questions. Sabine's response to my email confirms that she really is not the correct person for me to work with.


----------



## HannahBearsMom

krandall said:


> I'm not saying anything negative about either Sabine or her web site. I just wanted to be clear about her degree/qualifications. I think she explains very clearly on her site why she DOESN'T have a degree in animal nutrition(because it doesn't exist, so how could she?) and what she has done to learn what she knows. There is nothing wrong with that.
> 
> There is also nothing wrong with her and the vets at UT disagreeing... I am friendly with a number of vets, all of whom I respect, and they don't always agree on a number of subjects. Lots of people on the forum are very happy with the experiences they have had with Sabine. Laurie is free to voice her own less positive experience, and let people decide for themselves. If Sabine's reputation can't hold up to a little criticism here and there, (and I think it can) she has a bigger problem. Sabine has a good business, and a lot of happy clients. Whether Laurie chooses not to use her services, I'm sure does not affect Sabine's business in a meaningful way.
> 
> I also think that Laurie, who has just been through a LOT with her puppy, deserves not to be second-guessed on the choices she makes for him based on the advice of the top professionals in this problem in the country. To make it sound like she just doesn't care isn't fair, when she has made the effort to go out of state, to find the very best care possible for Maccabee.


Thanks.


----------



## Suzi

HannahBearsMom said:


> Dave, I never said UT was BETTER than Sabine. I said that I told her that the UT vet-nutritionists found deficiencies in the diet she formulated and they also said it contained twice the calories he needs. Her response was (paraphrased), I don't know what dietary recommendations they are using, my diet has no deficiencies, lots of people including vets and specialty practices use my services, if you feel you can't feed Maccabee my diet than obviously I am not the right person to work with you.
> 
> She didn't offer to take a second look at the diet she formulated. She didn't offer to speak with the treating vet or vet-nutritionist, she didn't ask for more information. She basically said if you don't like my diet and you want to listen to someone else, that's fine but obviously I'm not the right person to work with you.
> 
> I didn't respond to her highly defensive email, and I have no intention of doing so. After speaking with the folks at UT, I had questions. Sabine's response to my email confirms that she really is not the correct person for me to work with.


 I would think that she would have been more open to learning more about what they were saying too. Maybe you caught her in a bad moment .


----------



## rokipiki

Laurie, I completly agree with you! Maccabee is (hopefully was) sick pup. His food is critical for his cure, health and LIFE! I really do no like situations when someone is not willing to admit that his/her knowledge is not perfect. As long as we live we can and should learn! 
Lot of healing thougths, tailwags and kisses from both of us! Hope little Mac is geting better!


----------



## davetgabby

Laurie there was nothing inappropriate about her comment. She has formulated dozens of requests for Havanesee before. She adjusts the calorie levels by a bit depending on the size of the dog and it's activity level. You are assuming she is wrong by telling her UT was saying that. Maybe they're wrong. ? Any professional confronted by a person that says they are wrong deserves the right to tell their customer to look elsewhere. She does not have the time to get into a debate with UT. It's like telling her she doesn't know what she's doing when she has done this for years. If I had to bet , I'd bet there's nothing wrong with her plan.


----------



## HannahBearsMom

Dave,

I believe Sabine acted unprofessionally when I informed her that the vet-nutritnists found problems with the diet she formulated. You trust Sabine and frequently recommend her. I had a bad experience with her and, felt it important to let our Havanese friends know about my experience. I'm done arguing with you about this.


----------

