# Stains on a white coat! Help!



## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Hi Everyone,

First I want to thank everyone for giving me and my new baby Hanna a nice warm welcome in the puppy section. 

This is going to be ironic/embarassing since I am a groomer, but I am a new Hav owner and have never had to deal with staining problems on my personal dog. I am planning on showing her and am trying my best to keep her as clean as possible. She seems pretty clean at a glance, but when I bathe her the stains become evident - on all four of her feet, urine stains on her hind legs, and staining on her beard and eyes. I want to keep her clean and white, but I also don't want to overdo it and dry up her skin and coat or unknowingly damage her hair with harsh chemicals. Here is what I've done so far:

- I try to keep her sanitary clipped well. I can bring her to the salon where I work once a month so that's as often as it gets done. She is getting better at "going" but initially I suspected she would start walking before she was done

- I bathe her approximately 2 times a week, with some wiping and "just water" spot baths in between. I use Les Poochs brightening shampoo and Earthbath conditioner (it's all natural which means it supposedly has no silicone in it) I've been applying the shampoo in stronger dilutions to the stained areas, but so far I've managed to make those spots slightly blue. I use Crystal Eye for under her eyes where the fur is stained.) I use Earthbath Puppy shampoo for her head.

- She came from the breeder eating Purina Pro Plan, which I decided I didn't want to keep her on, so I started her on Wellness. She had on and off runny stools and my husband objected, so I decided to change her over to Orijen Puppy after seeing a client's maltese that was perfectly white being fed Orijen. During that time I also started giving her distilled water in a bowl (I do not want to use a water bottle).

- At this time her face had become brown and now I was resorting to my plan D - Angel Eyes. I consulted with my vet and she said she has no qualms about it - many dogs are given this same antibiotic for permanent bowel problems throughout their entire life and are able to take antibotics for any infections they may have - the dose is low and it is actually a different antibiotic than the one given for infections. I give her 1/2 the recommended dose with nonfat plain yogurt 5-6 times a week. The new growth near her eyes is clean, and to my surprise so is the hair on her muzzle, although overall her face stains are only slightly diminished. 

Now her bowel movements are on and off runny again, husband's complains have grown into threats, and I am facing changing her food again after all that research to find a high quality puppy food. I don't want to give her anything that may cause or further lead to stains, but now I'm thinking maybe this food is too rich for her. I'm thinking of switching to Natural Balance, does anyone have any experiece with this brand? She isn't outside all day and when I take her on walks, it is on sidewalks. Also, we have hardwood floors so I suspect that may be partially to blame for her feet stains.

Additionally, I first reached out to my breeder and she said she doesn't usually see stains on her dogs (no advice after that statement), so I left it at that. (FYI for those who mentioned Lynn Nieto, she DID NOT breed my dog although Hanna's pedigree goes back to her kennel).

Any seasoned Hav owners, show groomers, breeders etc have any tips? What products do you use? What is your process for keeping a show dog in tip top shape? I know I have fallen short somewhere and I have my suspicions, but at this point I need help.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Kodi doesn't show in conformation, just in Rally-O for now... he'll do Agility later. But he's mostly white, and it's important to me that he look his best.He doesn't have a white face, so I can't help you with the facial staining... not a problem for us!

But Kodi lives a very active life and I do allow him to get dirty, which means clean-ups too! I only do a complete bath once a week, unless he's gotten into something really filthy but we often do foot baths in between. I use BioGroom Super White, which is a tearless shampoo, so can be used even on their faces. On any parts of him that are looking stained (though I don't think I'd do THIS on a face!) I apply it full strength, rub it in and let it set for at least 5 minutes. Then I bathe him normally, rinsing his feet, which were coated with shampoo last. I use BioGroom Silk Conditioner, which works really nicely on his coat. This seams to keep him nice and white, in spite of being allowed to live "a dog's life"

As far as food is concerned, from what I've seen, sometimes dog's insides don't agree with the experts in terms of what's "best". I feed Natural Balance Organic. Kodi has been on it since his first birthday and has done wonderfully on it. (and he gobbles it down) There was one time that I couldn't get the NB Organic, and picked up a bag of their chicken and sweet potato, thinking that was probably the closest to the organic in terms of ingredients. He had the first loose stools he has had since he was a small puppy. Switched him back to NB Organic and he never looked back. 

One more thing you might want to consider is putting her on a good probiotic. I started after Kodi had some intestinal problems last winter. But when my vet and I talked about it, he said that even if a dog seems perfectly happy and relaxed in a show or trial environment, dogs that are in training and show conditions regularly are under more stress than dogs who just stay home on the couch and in the back yard. (Kodi's problems weren't caused by stress... he got a blockage, most likely from a Greenie) But the vet said that he recommends that all show and performance dogs stay on probiotics continually. I don't think you are showing Hanna yet, but the probiotics might help her loose stools now, and will help protect her from stress induced intestinal problems once she IS showing.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Puppies sometimes get staining and out grow it, so don't beat yourself up. Since the face staining is most probably not really bad try #1 All Systems Whitening Gel, it takes a few times and it is not for heavy stains. The urine stains can really get out of hand so you need to make for sure you clean the area everytime she goes (hopefully she will out grow this too) You can use a bit of % 2 percent proxide on a cotton ball or they have some towelettes on the market now for this. Also as Karen suggested the Bio Groom Super White is very good, but rinse!!!!!! Your dog should not be blue or purple, remember our Hav's have a more cottoney coat (even the silkly ones) so they need more rinsing. It would also be good to use a finishing spray to coat the hair where the urine stains are a problem, it really does help to make cleaning easier.

All failing later on you may have to bleach. Show grooming is a bit different and you need to know lots of tricks in a hurry. Going to a show and watching what the handlers are using and talking to them is a big help. I got Misty back after boarding her for two weeks at the vet, since she has allergy's and stress can make them worse they followed the vets orders to wash her feet two times a day, he should have said and dry. Long strory short no allergy but bright pick shoes on all four feet. Trouble is with pink feet I can't tell if the allergy is acting up so, I bleached once and they are light pink and I will do it once more. You really have to be careful or you will ruin the coat. Hope this helps.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Yes, I second the probiotic band wagon of fabulous-ness..

I've kept Gucci stains down with just keeping her eyes dry and putting the drying powder on the fur when she does tear occasionally, I've noticed it happens more in the cold, winter months...wind, maybe? IDK, but dry fur doesn't stain is the motto I"ve kept. As for the pads, I always trim off the stains on the bottom of her feet, those are inevitable as long as she's walking.

Kara


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Hi, I have a black and white show dog and was having problems with staining. I think what helped the most was I stopped giving her bullie sticks and pig huffs She also was given some canned food by her dad and that was stopped. I worked at getting the stains out for about two months and It is all cleared up now. I used a product called Laser lites no more stains. It has boric acid in it. I really didn't like using it because she didn't like me applying it and I was afraid to get it in her eyes.I also bought some whiting shampoo. It is just a Paul mitchell brighting shampoo for dogs. I later found out that blue shampoos should not be used to often because you can damage the hair. I also bought a third product called Bio groom under eye stain cover cream. It worked great it was easier to apply and protects the hair from further staining and also has something in it to take out the stain.
Teething can cause more problems with staining for some reason. I would also think about not giving so many baths. You want her hydrated too many baths and using blue shampoo will dehydrate her real fast. I also started giving a natural food supplement called Fresh Factors recommended to me by a nice person we have only been taking the vitamins for about three days.
I don't know if Zoeys stains were because of yeast or more of what she was eating or because of teething. Apple cider vinegar is suppose to help with yeast.I tryed it but could not get her to drink it.
PS your puppy is really cute


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> Hi, I have a black and white show dog and was having problems with staining. I think what helped the most was I stopped giving her bullie sticks and pig huffs She also was given some canned food by her dad and that was stopped. I worked at getting the stains out for about two months and It is all cleared up now. I used a product called Laser lites no more stains. It has boric acid in it. I really didn't like using it because she didn't like me applying it and I was afraid to get it in her eyes.I also bought some whiting shampoo. It is just a Paul mitchell brighting shampoo for dogs. I later found out that blue shampoos should not be used to often because you can damage the hair. I also bought a third product called Bio groom under eye stain cover cream. It worked great it was easier to apply and protects the hair from further staining and also has something in it to take out the stain.
> Teething can cause more problems with staining for some reason. I would also think about not giving so many baths. You want her hydrated too many baths and using blue shampoo will dehydrate her real fast. I also started giving a natural food supplement called Fresh Factors recommended to me by a nice person we have only been taking the vitamins for about three days.
> I don't know if Zoeys stains were because of yeast or more of what she was eating or because of teething. Apple cider vinegar is suppose to help with yeast.I tryed it but could not get her to drink it.
> PS your puppy is really cute


Who told you that shampoos with blueing damage the hair? My breeder recommended BioGroom Super White from the beginning. My Groomer ( who does a lot of show dogs ) also knows I use it, and has never said anything negative about it. I wash Kodi weekly, and have not seen any signs that it damages his coat. I knew that bleach was bad, but I thought blueing was alright...we use it on white horses all the time to get manure stains out of their coats.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Karen, The Bio-groom and products like it are safe for the coat. Also show dogs are bathed every week or more if you are doing a hectic schedule your dog is going to get bathed a lot. Good nutrition, over all health and of course conditioner are all factors in a great coat.

Bleaching is not good but sometimes in a show dog you have no choice, because you do not have time to let it grow out, this is why I suggested going to the shows watching what others are using. With bleaching you only do the problem area and only leave it on for about 5 mins and condition with a heavy duty human conditioner like Feria professional. It is best to have someone walk you thru the first time and hopefully it will be an only time.

As for the Bio groom wax for under the eyes this is good for home use but not allowed for Havanese in the show ring.

I showed Tzus and believe me a 16 yr old girl with a beehive in the 60's could not compete in the amount of products. All done their coats survived to show another day.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

The Laughing Magpie said:


> Karen, The Bio-groom and products like it are safe for the coat. Also show dogs are bathed every week or more if you are doing a hectic schedule your dog is going to get bathed a lot. Good nutrition, over all health and of course conditioner are all factors in a great coat.
> 
> Bleaching is not good but sometimes in a show dog you have no choice, because you do not have time to let it grow out, this is why I suggested going to the shows watching what others are using. With bleaching you only do the problem area and only leave it on for about 5 mins and condition with a heavy duty human conditioner like Feria professional. It is best to have someone walk you thru the first time and hopefully it will be an only time.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Robbie. That was my understanding, but I was just checking! I love Super White! It smells good and keeps him looking great, in spite of an "active lifestyle":laugh: After 2+ years, if it were going to damage his coat, I would have thought I'd see it. Now, I DO condition him well too, but I think you need to do that after any shampoo. (BioGroom Silk, usually)

The dogs I couldn't believe at the Toy Dog Cluster in May were the Maltese... These incredibly white coats TOUCHING the ground, perfectly straight... not a hair out of place. There was one (the one who won while I was watching) where the handler picked him up under his chest and by his tail, so as not to mess up his coat when he put him on the table. The dog was clearly TOTALLY used to it. I can't get past all the little hair decorations on the Tzus when they show!ound:


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Thanks for all the suggestions, I'll be trying them out. It sounds like I haven't been wiping her face often enough, and I'll have to work on gettiing the stains out little by little. Her breeder said I may encounter the eye tearing, but it should go away after she stops teething. 

As a professional groomer I'm almost certain her bathing regimine isn't damaging her coat. One of my co workers who goes to shows often, told me that on a day of a show many dogs can expect to be bathed before and after they show, so during that week they are bathed multiple times. Most pet owners who dry out their dogs' coats use a harsh shampoo and no conditioner. I use a high quality show dog shampoo and a good conditioner. I feed her high quality food and she seems to be drinking normally. Her coat is fluffy, soft and supple, and she hardly ever scatches. I think I can relate the effect of product on hair with my own experience. When I use a cheap shampoo and conditioner, my hair becomes dry and frizzy and my scalp itches like crazy. It essentially becomes damaged. If I use an expensive salon shampoo and conditioner, my hair is hydrated and smooth, and my scalp doesn't bother me anymore. I believe the same can be said for dog shampoo and conditioner. Where I can see a coat becoming damaged is when using strong bleaching agents, which I think there may be some bleaching agents in some whitening shampoos, but it shouldn't be strong enough to the point of actually erroding the hair shaft. If this were the case, there would be a lot of angry owners of white show dogs and these companies would go out of business.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

atsilvers27 said:


> As a professional groomer I'm almost certain her bathing regimine isn't damaging her coat. One of my co workers who goes to shows often, told me that on a day of a show many dogs can expect to be bathed before and after they show, so during that week they are bathed multiple times. Most pet owners who dry out their dogs' coats use a harsh shampoo and no conditioner. I use a high quality show dog shampoo and a good conditioner. I feed her high quality food and she seems to be drinking normally. Her coat is fluffy, soft and supple, and she hardly ever scatches. I think I can relate the effect of product on hair with my own experience. When I use a cheap shampoo and conditioner, my hair becomes dry and frizzy and my scalp itches like crazy. It essentially becomes damaged. If I use an expensive salon shampoo and conditioner, my hair is hydrated and smooth, and my scalp doesn't bother me anymore. I believe the same can be said for dog shampoo and conditioner. Where I can see a coat becoming damaged is when using strong bleaching agents, which I think there may be some bleaching agents in some whitening shampoos, but it shouldn't be strong enough to the point of actually erroding the hair shaft. If this were the case, there would be a lot of angry owners of white show dogs and these companies would go out of business.


It certainly sounds like you are doing everything right with her coat. I agree that lots of show dogs get washed a lot. My vet told me that as long as you use a good shampoo and condition well that it's just like people hair... keeping it clean doesn't damage it! I think I'd avoid shampoos with any bleaching agents for every day use, and save them for when you really need them before a show. Blueing isn't a bleaching agent, though. If it's gentle enough to safely use around the dog's eyes, (and BioGroom certainly is) I figure it can't be too hard on their coat.


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Good points. I would be a little hesitant to put a whitening shampoo even diluted, on a dog's head, even if it says tearless (I know Kodi has a black head so you probably don't use the biogroom whitening on his head) I dab a little on her muzzle, but if you put it on the head it will wash down into the eyes during rinsing. FYI tearless shampoo DOES NOT mean it is safe for the eyes. On almost all of the tearless shampoo bottles I've seen it clearly says to avoid getting it in the dog's eyes because it may still cause chemical burns to the eyes. We have this problem in my salon where every once in a while a dog has a reaction to probably the tearless shampoo, and their eyes turn red, puffy and shut. This may be because the dog is very sensitive and we seem to see it in a lot of cavaliers. I am still cautious with the puppy shampoo around my dog's eyes, and you can always test it by putting a little on your own eye. If it stings you, it will sting your dog.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

atsilvers27 said:


> Good points. I would be a little hesitant to put a whitening shampoo even diluted, on a dog's head, even if it says tearless (I know Kodi has a black head so you probably don't use the biogroom whitening on his head) I dab a little on her muzzle, but if you put it on the head it will wash down into the eyes during rinsing. FYI tearless shampoo DOES NOT mean it is safe for the eyes. On almost all of the tearless shampoo bottles I've seen it clearly says to avoid getting it in the dog's eyes because it may still cause chemical burns to the eyes. We have this problem in my salon where every once in a while a dog has a reaction to probably the tearless shampoo, and their eyes turn red, puffy and shut. This may be because the dog is very sensitive and we seem to see it in a lot of cavaliers. I am still cautious with the puppy shampoo around my dog's eyes, and you can always test it by putting a little on your own eye. If it stings you, it will sting your dog.


Actually, Super White doesn't bleach the hair AT ALL, so it's fine to use on the colored parts of the dog. It's a coconut oil based shampoo, so it's very mild. I use it on all of him every week. That said, I use a very dilute solution, and only a very small amount, when I wash his head, and then I'm very careful while rinsing his face, eyes and ears to keep the spray pressure really low. (I only use it full strength on his feet and the edges of his skirt.

Obviously you try as much as possible to keep any kind of shampoo out of the dog's eyes, but I still prefer to use ones that are LESS likely to irritate. If you are going to wash their heads at all, there is always the possibility of getting a little in their eyes. I know that some show people put mineral oil drops in their dogs' eyes before bathing to prevent irritation. Kodi has never shown any signs of eye irritation with the Super White, so I've never felt the need.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

I always put the oil in the eyes, I buy it from my vet. Boo Boo gets Cyclosporin for his dry eye so I always get a bottle with just oil (they add the cyclosporin when you buy it) also. I am use to this as Tzus have those round eyes that can get damaged easy and lets face it they lead with the eyes. 

The angel eye will work but only with the hair growing out. Do try the #1 All systems Whiting Gel.

Karen, The white dogs with the hair that touches the ground gets dirty!!!! The floors at the shows look clean but you know how they are at the performance shows. Even Misty we practice formal heeling in our downtown area, I put a tee shirt on her so her belly does not turn black.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

The Laughing Magpie said:


> Karen, The white dogs with the hair that touches the ground gets dirty!!!! The floors at the shows look clean but you know how they are at the performance shows. Even Misty we practice formal heeling in our downtown area, I put a tee shirt on her so her belly does not turn black.


Oh, I know it must be a HUGE job keeping one in gleaming white show shape. I'm sure that dog doesn't spend much time outside!:biggrin1: OTOH, I LOVED the relationship she had with her (professional) handler... you could tell they both adored each other. He was very kind and gentle with her in the ring, always with a big smile on his face. She was all business (though looking very happy!) in the ring. But the minute she came out, she was a little dancing dervish. When they were finished, he opened his arms and she jumped right up into them. It was really cute.


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