# Breeders, would you consider going to Cuba now...



## Carefulove

For a Havanese?

I have read that many breeders get bitches from Cuba. Now that things may start to change (for Americans who want to visit Cuba), would you consider it?
I wonder if they do health tests there, considering that there is only one Vet Clinic in Havana.


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## Havtahava

No. Besides, as a US citizen, I don't think I even have the option of considering it.


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## Carefulove

Havtahava said:


> No. Besides, as a US citizen, I don't think I even have the option of considering it.


Wait and see. I am optimistic that you may. Besides there is always a 3rd country.

If your citizenship was not an obstacle would you consider it? if Not, Why not?

PS: I am just curious.


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## Havtahava

First of all, I have no idea what style of Havs are over in Cuba. (We have more than enough variety in style to select from here with proven health testing done.) Secondly, the health testing (or lack thereof) is a huge concern of mine. Thirdly, there is too much to do here within the dogs that are available to work on the goal of getting to Havanese of our standard.


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## Carefulove

Thanks.
I really wonder if they do health testing there.


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## Tom King

Unfortunately, they don't have access to health testing. Not that they don't want to, but it's out of reach for one reason or another. They do have an active breed club there-Club Habanero de Cuba. There was a good article in a magazine a while back written by an English Judge with pictures that was very good about a Club Habanero show. People from other countries that can travel freely to Cuba send dogs there to get their Cuban Championships so a lot of dogs you see pictures of in Cuba on the internet are not actual Cuban dogs.

I don't know about the "many" part of "many get bitches from there". I know one person that has one from there.


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## Carefulove

Tom King said:


> ...I don't know about the "many" part of "many get bitches from there". I know one person that has one from there.


I know of two, does that make many? ound:

I have hopes that I get to meet some Havs in Cuba if I ever go back!


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## Tom King

PM sent. Do you speak Spanish?


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## Carefulove

Thank you. Yes, I speak Spanish-Cuban.


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## MopTop Havanese

I would love to go to Cuba- but I don't see it in my plans any time soon! Ha!
If I was able to go there, and I liked what I saw with the Havanese, sure I would prob bring one home! :biggrin1:


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## ama0722

Didn't Jan get her puppy from Cuba?


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## Beamer

I go to Cuba all the time.. I can bring back some pups for a nominal charge.. 

Ryan


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## Carefulove

Beamer said:


> I go to Cuba all the time.. I can bring back some pups for a nominal charge..
> 
> Ryan




ha, my mom is going in a few months! :whoo:


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## marjrc

Beamer said:


> I go to Cuba all the time.. I can bring back some pups for a nominal charge..
> 
> Ryan


Shoot !! You beat me to it, Ryan. :suspicious:

I did chat with someone from Cuba and they said they never saw or heard of a dog that sounds like our Havanese. ound:


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## Havtahava

Marj & Ryan, rub it in! LOL I'd love to go to Cuba for reasons other than the dogs. I have a couple of friends that have gone and am completely intrigued by the comments about how it is still stuck in the 1950's in so many places. It sounds facinating.


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## Beamer

Marj, I've never seena ny dog that looks like a Havanese either.. Granted I've only seen street dogs, but still.. lol

Kimberly, Yeah... If you go into the major cities like Havana, it is quite a throwback to 1950's North america! Pretty cool........

Ryan


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## Missy

I would love to see some Cuban Bichon Havanais. I too would love to visit Cuba. I did a search for pictures but this is all I came up with.



> Not till 1991 was anyone sure that the Havanese still existed in Cuba. The Bichon Habanero Club was established to study the island's remaining indigenous dogs to ascertain their purebred status. After careful study and consideration, a closely supervised breeding program was put into place using a foundation stock of approximately 15 dogs. In 1997 the first Havanese was exported from Cuba to the Netherlands. As in days gone by, the Havanese is again making its mark as the Bichon of Cuba, though no longer as a token of high society. In Cuba today, Havanese can be found in great numbers in the Capital of Havana as well as in the towns throughout the countryside. Whether he is peeking through balcony railings, gracing a country porch, or walking at his owners side; he is a charming pet for all. In a loving tribute to its native breed, Cuba chose the image of a Havanese to grace a 1992 souvenir issue postage stamp.


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## Carefulove

Beamer said:


> Marj, I've never seena ny dog that looks like a Havanese either.. Granted I've only seen street dogs, but still.. lol...


We had a Hav mix growing up and only found out what he was recently. We always thought he was a maltese mix mixed with std poodle or something ound:
And very few people there know of the Bichon Havanero.


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## JASHavanese

ama0722 said:


> Didn't Jan get her puppy from Cuba?


No, I got a 3/4 Cuban girl. The sire was born in Cuba and went through another country then came to the States.
And for the original question, if they opened the borders I'd be on a plane to Cuba. I've always wanted to go there not just since I got into Havanese.
As for not having health testing, I've seen pictures of the way they do a CERF test in Cuba. Their equipment is far superior to anything I've seen and as the vet looked into the eye what they were seeing was displayed on a TV screen so that the owner could see all. I don't know about their other testing though.


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## Carefulove

JASHavanese said:


> No, I got a 3/4 Cuban girl. The sire was born in Cuba and went through another country then came to the States.
> And for the original question, if they opened the borders I'd be on a plane to Cuba. I've always wanted to go there not just since I got into Havanese.
> As for not having health testing, I've seen pictures of the way they do a CERF test in Cuba. Their equipment is far superior to anything I've seen and as the vet looked into the eye what they were seeing was displayed on a TV screen so that the owner could see all. I don't know about their other testing though.


Wow, Thanks Jan! that's actually great. Last experience I had with Cuban Vets was that they were using discontinued anesthesia from hospitals to operate on dogs.  It's sad because there are some amazing docs/vets there!


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## BeverlyA

I was at an auction/sale at a very upscale house where the couple had lived in Cuba. Everything in the house was from Cuba and I was admiring the art and furniture. I joked to the woman," my dog is from Cuba, he's a Havanese!". She kind of snorted and looked right down her nose and said,"THOSE aren't from Cuba!". Well!!! lol

I have a friend from Belgium who raves about Cuba and travels there often.

Beverly


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## SMARTY

BeverlyA said:


> I was at an auction/sale at a very upscale house where the couple had lived in Cuba. Everything in the house was from Cuba and I was admiring the art and furniture. I joked to the woman," my dog is from Cuba, he's a Havanese!". *She kind of snorted and looked right down her nose and said,"THOSE aren't from Cuba!". Well!!! lol*
> I have a friend from Belgium who raves about Cuba and travels there often.
> 
> Beverly


Mine in Bold

I got the same reaction from a couple that was looking at a house, they had no idea what I was talking about with the Havanese, Silk Dogs from Cuba. They were recent immigrants, very wealthy, always had dogs and never seen or heard of our type dogs in Cuba. Interesting.


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## Carefulove

Yes, this is an unheard breed in Cuba. People have them, but they have no idea what they are. Seriously, we found out Rocky was a Hav mix once we started looking into the breed and getting to know their traits, etc.
The only breeds, I knew off in Cuba and got to see/interact with were: Goldens, Presa Canario and Pointers. In fact, my uncle has a pointer (I think is a shorthair, since he is a hunting professor in the sports and recreation institute of Cuba). The rest, were mixes of breeds. But never ever heard of a Havanese.


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## ama0722

My conformation instructor is in her 70s and from Cuba and she knew of Havanese in Cuba. She told me they were always all white and their coats were more profuse like a Bichon and never corded. But I have spoken to younger Cubans who said the same thing- that I was out of my mind thinking my dog was from Cuba.


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## Tom King

They are there and have had their heritage well guarded for generations. I wouldn't say that there are a lot there, so I'm not surprised that most people there have never seen one. They don't do a lot of running around in public because until we started sending Frontline down there they had little protection against fleas and ticks. Their dogs are very well taken care of.

Havanese are very popular here but even here most people still don't know what they are.

Things are very different, even now, in Cuba than they are here.


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## Leslie

My next door neighbors are from Cuba (they fled there when Castro took control). When I introduced them to Shadow (and subsequently Tori) they told me they had never even heard of the breed. Since then, they have totally fallen in love w/Tori (who wouldn't? ) 

Funny story: I was out front working in the yard one day when Maria (the grandmother) came over and asked me if I would bring Tori out so her sister, who was there visiting, could see what a "real Cuban dog" looks like :biggrin1:


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## JASHavanese

ama0722 said:


> My conformation instructor is in her 70s and from Cuba and she knew of Havanese in Cuba. She told me they were always all white and their coats were more profuse like a Bichon and never corded. But I have spoken to younger Cubans who said the same thing- that I was out of my mind thinking my dog was from Cuba.


The coat is profuse? My little 3/4 Cuban girl has a very thin coat. I think Lynn got a dog from Cuba and it's coat is profuse though


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## JASHavanese

Carefulove said:


> Yes, this is an unheard breed in Cuba..


When I tell people I have a havanese they ask what that is. I have several vets and none of them had seen a hav before mine.


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## Ana's Mojito

JASHavanese said:


> No, I got a 3/4 Cuban girl. The sire was born in Cuba and went through another country then came to the States.
> And for the original question, if they opened the borders I'd be on a plane to Cuba. I've always wanted to go there not just since I got into Havanese.
> As for not having health testing, I've seen pictures of the way they do a CERF test in Cuba. Their equipment is far superior to anything I've seen and as the vet looked into the eye what they were seeing was displayed on a TV screen so that the owner could see all. I don't know about their other testing though.


I am Guatemalan and have never been to Cuba, although I'd love to! A lot of people who compete FCI to go Cuba, there are beautiful dogs and not only Havanese. Of course there's a bit of everything, but the people who do have money do have access to wonderful services and products (Fidel's relatives and friends, and Government people maybe?) I've met the President of the Cuban Havanese Club because she's also a judge and came to judge here this year in February. She sent two Havs to a friend, both of them beautiful. But... The female has bad pigment, that's it. I've seen another bitch that comes from a very reputable Cuban kennel, but this particular one is not pretty (not well taken care of maybe.. I didn't get my hands on her). If someone please tells me how to post photos and relate them to this thread, I'll post photos of them. FCI people prefer Cuban dogs a lot of times because they're much smaller than American dogs. I thought my Mojito was average size and it turns out he's on the big side at barely 11". A breeder in South America loved him, and he had a gorgeous bitch I was interested in for breeding with Mojito. The guy loved his pedigree and his photos, but decided not to use him as a stud dog because of his size. He ended up breeding his bitch to "Wee Pantaloons"....  I've talked to more breeders who compete FCI and they prefer Cuban dogs for their smaller size, when their lines are getting too big (Pan is somewhere around 9.5 or 10 " I think he said...) So when time comes to breed my two, I'll have to go to the U.S. to look for options of suitable, health-tested bitches (both Mojito and Mambo are AKC). As for the original question: are there good dogs in Cuba? Yes there are, but breeders travel to go pick them out I guess to pick the good ones. Medical equipment in Cuba is top of the line, same as Doctors and Medical studies, they're famous for excellent Medical care and procedures in people (for those who CAN afford it). If only it was all somewhere else....


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## Carefulove

Ana's Mojito said:


> ...Medical equipment in Cuba is top of the line, same as Doctors and Medical studies, they're famous for excellent Medical care and procedures in people (*for those who CAN afford it*)...


So sad, but true!


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## ama0722

Jan- how many generations is she Cuban? Like were her parents brought to Cuba from Hungary? For those who know about Cuban Havanese. How long have they been in Cuba or are you saying that they have always been in Cuba. I have heard a lot of them there were imported from other places in the last few decades. I wonder if that makes a difference.

I just met a woman in my neighborhood who lived in Cuba for 5 years (98-03) and she had never seen them either at this recent time! And she would have probably been considered pretty wealthy.


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## Carefulove

I think they have been there for centuries, but are not common. I know there are several breeds of dogs in Cuba, My uncle has a hunting dog (purebred) and a few of his friends too. I also saw goldens and labs when I was still there as well as Presa Canario. But muts are THE MOST common dogs there, people don't really care for the breeds much.


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## Havtahava

I suspect that Havanese in Cuba are even less like Boston Terriers are in the U.S. Although the Boston Terrier is an American breed and was developed here, it isn't like we see them running around on the streets. Being a wealthier country, yes, we have a lot of people that can afford the purebred Boston, so a lot of people know what they are, but many people wouldn't think "Hey, that's a dog from our country" when they see them. Ya know? Cuba, being a country of even less wealth for the general population, isn't going to be a place where you'd see a bunch of purebreds throughout he households. That's my theory anyway. Take it for what it's worth.


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## Ana's Mojito

I wish that kind of wonderful was available to everyone. Are you Cuban or have Cuban family Zury?
Ana


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## marjrc

Ana, that's too bad about size. I, for one, love the larger Hav for many reasons although I do enjoy the petite-ness of my Sammy. Still, to me, a Havanese is a tough "big" dog in a small body, so I prefer the strong, thicker legs and head. I'm not petite at all, so the daintiness of the smaller Havs sometimes makes me think they'll get hurt too easily!


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## Carefulove

Ana's Mojito said:


> I wish that kind of wonderful was available to everyone. Are you Cuban or have Cuban family Zury?
> Ana


100% purebred ma'am.:amen: Lived there until I was 20.


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang

Ana's Mojito said:


> ...If someone please tells me how to post photos and relate them to this thread, I'll post photos of them. FCI people prefer Cuban dogs a lot of times because they're much smaller than American dogs...


Has anyone helped you with posting photos? If not, I think you can attach photos by clicking on the "reply" button, then scroll down to "manage attachments". Click on that button and attach the photos you wish to share.

I think that will work. If I've missed a step, please someone help her 'cause I'd love to see pics of a few Cuban Havs!


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## Ana's Mojito

marjrc said:


> Ana, that's too bad about size. I, for one, love the larger Hav for many reasons although I do enjoy the petite-ness of my Sammy. Still, to me, a Havanese is a tough "big" dog in a small body, so I prefer the strong, thicker legs and head. I'm not petite at all, so the daintiness of the smaller Havs sometimes makes me think they'll get hurt too easily!


Hi Marj,
When I first heard this preference and difference on size I was surprised as I had never heard of such a thing. A Mexican handler in a show told me, and although he doesn't handle or breed Havs, he's married to a Cuban girl and bring Cuban show Havs for people in México. I didn't know if I believed him 100% at first... Until I heard other people say the same, and the Cuban judge at the show back in Feb. said the same, also a smaller dog was preferred over Mojito who I thought was average size. I LOVE their size at 11", They don't feel like they'll break like you say (I had a tiny Poodle before discovering Havs and I'd never go back to such a small dog). But people have their preferences and I respect that. Since Cuban dogs are smaller, some people want to keep them as close to that size as possible. 
take care,


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## Ana's Mojito

Carefulove said:


> 100% purebred ma'am.:amen: Lived there until I was 20.


Zury,

que maravilla chica! I love your food (what I've had of it), the photos of beaches I've seen, and would very much like to go to Cuba someday. Oh, and I especially love the Havs of course!!


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## Ana's Mojito

Here are the photos of the 2 Cuban Havs I talked about. Don't have another one beside it to compare sizes, but according to the breeder (who's the Cuban judge) they're much smaller. The all white is a female, the white with grey is male. 

Ana
p.s. thank you for the attachment tutorial! I had no idea...


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## Carefulove

Ana,

Esos dos parecen muñequitos!

Yes, our food is delicious, not because I am Cuban or anything...LOL and the beaches, oh the beaches, the rain, the flowers, the smell, the sound of the Cuban people in the background...I can close my eyes and feel/hear/smell it all!
Back when I was a teen, We used to go camping at the beach. Imagine waking up to a bright HOT sun and the sound of the waves. The sand, white and fine as sugar cool from the night. Ahhh, what would I do without my memories...


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## JASHavanese

Ana's Mojito said:


> FCI people prefer Cuban dogs a lot of times because they're much smaller than American dogs. I thought my Mojito was average size and it turns out he's on the big side at barely 11". ..


That's actually a hav on the large size here in the States. The ideal is 9-10.5. Right now our standard is 8.5-11.5 but they're trying to change it to 8.5-11.


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## JASHavanese

ama0722 said:


> Jan- how many generations is she Cuban? Like were her parents brought to Cuba from Hungary? For those who know about Cuban Havanese. How long have they been in Cuba or are you saying that they have always been in Cuba. I have heard a lot of them there were imported from other places in the last few decades. I wonder if that makes a difference.
> 
> I just met a woman in my neighborhood who lived in Cuba for 5 years (98-03) and she had never seen them either at this recent time! And she would have probably been considered pretty wealthy.


The sires parents of my girl were born in Cuba and were picked up by the breeder that lives in Spain. He was in the first Havanese litter born in Spain from both Cuban parents. Behind the dam is Cuban also with her sire owned by Zoila Portuondo Guerra. You can't get much more Cuban than that  Speaking of Zoila, the doorbell rang as I was posting this and it was the mailman delivering the book written by her. That's really odd since I already have her book and I don't know the person who sent it to me but it's from out of the country. Weird, huh?


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## JASHavanese

Here's a picture of the envelope that had the book in it. Does anyone know what country it's from? This is going to bug me wondering why the book was sent and who the guy is. Strange timing too!


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## Carefulove

UK?


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## Carefulove

Warwick, England.


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## JASHavanese

Carefulove said:


> Warwick, England.


Thanks for finding that. I still have no clue who sent it. How wild


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## Havtahava

Jan, that looks like the book that was listed on eBay and the person posted it here. You bid on an ebay auction about a month ago?


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## JASHavanese

Havtahava said:


> Jan, that looks like the book that was listed on eBay and the person posted it here. You bid on an ebay auction about a month ago?


I signed in to Ebay and here's what it says:
You do not have any recently-won items. 
You have not won any items during the time period you selected. Items you won will display here for up to 60 days or until you delete them.


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## JASHavanese

JASHavanese said:


> Here's a picture of the envelope that had the book in it. QUOTE]
> 
> Wow what a jackpot this book is!! (Bichon Havanese by Zoila Portundo Guerra)
> I found pictures of Cricket's relatives in there!


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## Thumper

A local breeder here got a Hav from Cuba, I'll have to get a picture at the next playdate...there's one at my house mid-July. I'll have to show her to you all


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## Sheri

That would be interesting. Do you know what the breeder thinks of the Cuban dogs in general?


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## marjrc

It's all so fascinating to me! Thank you all for sharing your experiences.


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## JASHavanese

marjrc said:


> It's all so fascinating to me! Thank you all for sharing your experiences.


The article that Zoila Portuondo Guerra (founder of the Cuban kennel club) wrote where she answered our questions is going to be in the next Hotline. It's interesting reading.


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## BeverlyA

Ana's,

Thank you so much for sharing those pictures! What beautiful dogs! I especially love the female.

I must be the only owner in the entire WORLD with such bad tear stains!

It's so funny to listen to you two talk about Cuba and Guatemala. My boss is from Guatemala and he SWEARS they have the most beautiful flowers,mountains and lakes and the best fruits and food you could ever taste. I would just like to go to one of the countries to visit!

Beverly


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## Ana's Mojito

Carefulove said:


> Ana,
> 
> Esos dos parecen muñequitos!
> 
> Yes, our food is delicious, not because I am Cuban or anything...LOL and the beaches, oh the beaches, the rain, the flowers, the smell, the sound of the Cuban people in the background...I can close my eyes and feel/hear/smell it all!
> Back when I was a teen, We used to go camping at the beach. Imagine waking up to a bright HOT sun and the sound of the waves. The sand, white and fine as sugar cool from the night. Ahhh, what would I do without my memories...


Zury,

thanks for the compliments on my "muñequitos" ;o) (little dolls)
Now you've made me REALLY go to Cuba, sounds soooo beautiful. How great you have all those beautiful memories. )


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## Ana's Mojito

JASHavanese said:


> That's actually a hav on the large size here in the States. The ideal is 9-10.5. Right now our standard is 8.5-11.5 but they're trying to change it to 8.5-11.


Jan,
that's what I've known from several breeders. thanks for confirming. I'll have to find bitches on the smaller side to breed my boys.


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## Ana's Mojito

JASHavanese said:


> The sires parents of my girl were born in Cuba and were picked up by the breeder that lives in Spain. He was in the first Havanese litter born in Spain from both Cuban parents. Behind the dam is Cuban also with her sire owned by Zoila Portuondo Guerra. You can't get much more Cuban than that  Speaking of Zoila, the doorbell rang as I was posting this and it was the mailman delivering the book written by her. That's really odd since I already have her book and I don't know the person who sent it to me but it's from out of the country. Weird, huh?


Jan,

are these two dogs by any chance Sancho (Sire) and Flor (Dam) from Los Gábatos? My Mambo is the great-grand dog (?) of Flor and I was trying to contact the breeder, but they don't have a working e-mail address. Just wondering, I'd love to tell them about Mambo.


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## Ana's Mojito

BeverlyA said:


> Ana's,
> 
> I must be the only owner in the entire WORLD with such bad tear stains!
> 
> It's so funny to listen to you two talk about Cuba and Guatemala. My boss is from Guatemala and he SWEARS they have the most beautiful flowers,mountains and lakes and the best fruits and food you could ever taste. I would just like to go to one of the countries to visit!
> 
> Beverly


No you're not Beverly, Mojito stains badly also. I'm always trying different things, and as expensive as Angel eyes is, he doesn't eat his food if it has it.. ugr... :Cry: I'm always drying the eye area and muzzle and cleaning it, applying cornstarch also to keep it as dry as possible. I'm trying to find Tylan (there's a thread about it here).

Your boss is right, we DO have amazingly beautiful flowers, and mountains, and lakes, and delicious fruit. Come here with your dog (s), we'll have playdates and take tours. )


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang

Ana,

Thank you for sharing those photos. What lovely dogs!


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## luv3havs

I've been to Guatemala several times and think it is an amazing and beautiful country.


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## JASHavanese

Ana's Mojito said:


> Jan,
> 
> are these two dogs by any chance Sancho (Sire) and Flor (Dam) from Los Gábatos? My Mambo is the great-grand dog (?) of Flor and I was trying to contact the breeder, but they don't have a working e-mail address. Just wondering, I'd love to tell them about Mambo.


I'll send you her email address. It was down for a bit from what I'm told Yes, on the sire's side that's his parents. Small world


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## iluvhavs

I bought Zoila's book before I got Rico. She was the authority on Havs at that time. Some great information there. The book was reprinted years later but credit was wrongly given to an American woman for writing it.

Isn't the Havanese considered the "National Dog of Cuba" (hence the stamp)? I guess that must mean they are living there.........


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## JASHavanese

iluvhavs said:


> I bought Zoila's book before I got Rico. She was the authority on Havs at that time. Some great information there. The book was reprinted years later but credit was wrongly given to an American woman for writing it.
> 
> Isn't the Havanese considered the "National Dog of Cuba" (hence the stamp)? I guess that must mean they are living there.........


I'm really confused about her book after reading the story from her in Our havanese. Now she's saying there should be a palm tree tail and if you look in her book the dogs don't have that type of tail. The dog I have that comes from her lines doesn't have a palm tree for a tail. She does have the tail I like though with it being high over the back, but it's not a teacup tail or palm tree tail.


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## iluvhavs

Maybe the translation is the problem. My Zoila book says "TAIL - set high, the tail is thick at the base, tapers to a point as it curves over the rump like a plume, without touching the body. If the tail is too close to the body or too curly, it destroys the harmony and corect image if the Bichon Havanese, especially it's walk."

By the "tapering to a point", she's talking about the tail itself. The "plume" is the tail with fur.

That describes the hav tail perfectly.


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## JASHavanese

iluvhavs said:


> Maybe the translation is the problem. My Zoila book says "TAIL - set high, the tail is thick at the base, tapers to a point as it curves over the rump like a plume, without touching the body. If the tail is too close to the body or too curly, it destroys the harmony and corect image if the Bichon Havanese, especially it's walk."
> 
> By the "tapering to a point", she's talking about the tail itself. The "plume" is the tail with fur.
> 
> That describes the hav tail perfectly.


Mine is the same but in the new issue of Our Havanese there's an article from Zoila saying the tail should be higer and look like a palm tree with a picture of a tailset I've never seen. It's NOTHING like the picture on the cover or the pictures in the book


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## iluvhavs

hhmmmm


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## Carefulove

JASHavanese said:


> Mine is the same but in the new issue of Our Havanese there's an article from Zoila saying the tail should be higer and look like a palm tree with a picture of a tailset I've never seen. It's NOTHING like the picture on the cover or the pictures in the book


see if you can get it in the spanish version (at least that part). I can take a look and see if it's bad translation or freaky tails. ;-)


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## JASHavanese

Carefulove said:


> see if you can get it in the spanish version (at least that part). I can take a look and see if it's bad translation or freaky tails. ;-)


There's a picture with it so it's not the translation
If I was at home I could show you the picture from my pc but I'm on hubby's laptop out of town


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## iluvhavs

Here's an article by Zoila describing the tail. It does mention that "palm tree" but I think she's trying to describe how the fur falls like a plume. 
Tail:
{The tail, which is rather highly located, is thick at the base and thin at the tip. The BH carries it well-raised above the loin in such a way that its long hair falls like a *palm tree leaf*. The tail is arched, never curled and doesn't touch the back. 
The manner of tail deportment is very important in this breed, because it expresses very clearly the correct temperament! When the BH moves, its tail waves like a flag, expressing at the same time pride and joy. Its length is usually 18 cm.}







_Palm Tree leaves_
I can't help but think the photo with the article was not of Zoila's doing, or else just a weird angle. She clearly knows how the tail should be. She would not try to change the description of the breed after being one of the founding promoters of it.
Here are the pictures that accompany her article, on her website:














THIS GUYS TAIL IS WEIRD.....









I notice the dogs in Cuba are much more unkempt looking then here in the US.


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## Havtahava

Rory, are you posting those photos to show a tail as Zoila describes as correct? 
(I much prefer the AKC breed standard tail for our dogs.)


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## iluvhavs

No, not at all. I think what I'm trying to show is Zoila's tails are the same as your's. Her dogs just are not groomed as well. Her description of a tail "falling as a palm leaf", is the same as the AKC's description.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but don't these dogs, though a little mangy looking, look like yours? I believe Zoila's standard is the AKC standard. But surely someone here knows more about Zoila and her description of the standard than I do.


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## Havtahava

No, our tails don't look like that. Ours go up and over the back and should practically touch the back at the tip.

From the standard:


> The tail is high-set and plumed with long, silky hair. It arcs forward over the back, but neither lies flat on the back nor is tightly curled. On the move the tail is carried loosely curled over the rump. The long plume of hair may fall straight forward *or to either side of the body**. The tail may not be docked.


"High-set" refers to the place where the tail comes out of the rear of the dog, not in reference to where the tip is. Our tail arcs forward over the back. None of the dogs in those pictures do.

Editing to bold part of the standard so I can add: If the tail is carried high (like a flag pole), then there is no way the hair can fall straight forward or to either side of the body. Frankly, this part of our standard has been discussed numerous times and will be edited on the next revision, I'm sure. The easiest way to describe the ideal look of the tail is to imagine a teacup handle. You should be able to see it curve over the back, but still have light showing through (because it doesn't lie flat) if there wasn't a plume of hair.


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## iluvhavs

I think the dogs in these pictures are young and don't have their full fur growth.

Bowtie, Inc, the publisher of Cat Fancy, Dog Fancy, etc, published a set of books in 2003 called KENNEL CLUB SERIES. This series describes different breeds. The one on Havanese is by Zoila. The pictures in this book are almost identical to the pictures in her first book. This is the book she is quoted from regarding the tail. She describes it as you do, but instead of saying falls like a plume, she says falls like a "PALM TREE LEAF" (not a palm tree). I believe that is an accurate description.

Here's a link to the book on Amazon, so you can check out the pictures:
Amazon.com: Havanese: A Comprehensive Guide to Owning and Caring for Your Dog (Kennel Club Dog Breed Series): Zoila Portuondo Guerra: Books

I'm starting to feel like I'm beating a dead horse here. So I'll let it go now......


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## Tom King

copied and pasted from the latest AKC Standard:

The tail is high-set and plumed with long, silky hair. It arcs forward over the back, but neither lies flat on the back nor is tightly curled. On the move the tail is carried loosely curled over the rump

copied and pasted from the first known 1963 Standard:

*TAIL: The tail is carried raised in the shape of a crosier and is trimmed with long silky hair.*

after much work on translation with the President of the Club de Habanero de Cuba, who is also the keeper of the Cuban Registry for decades:

*Tail *- Set on so that it is naturally carried raised in the shape of a crosier (inverted J) over the back while moving. The vertebrae of the tail should not touch the back.

I don't remember anything in any of the Standard changes in the U.S. about the tip touching the back being preferred but I don't remember all the standard changes verbatum.


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## Havtahava

Rory, don't feel like you're beating a dead horse. I'm just saying I don't like the tails that the Cuban dogs have. They are very different from those of us that follow the AKC standard for the tail description. That's all. When we see those tails in the ring, we actually call them "Cuban tails" because they stand out to be so different. That's all.


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## iluvhavs

I understand what you're saying......Lucy is much different in both her hair texture and sensitivity to heat and sun. She has thinner, finer, more wavy hair. Rico has courser, denser hair. He hates the heat and sun, she seeks it out.

DH says she's the real Cuban and Rico is an imposter. Who knows which is right? Or does that lead us into that HSD debate NOT!


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## Havtahava

Nah. The dogs probably vary there as much as they do here. Every breed has variances in style, coat, color, etc. Ours just happens to be a lot more drastic than most. LOL


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## marjrc

I have seen quite a lot of Hav tails and there are many different ones. I'm not talking about the ones in the show ring, but pets that people I know have. I personally really love Ricky's tail that waves like a flag, curving over but never touching his back. The hair is long and flowing and falls behind the tail when it's raised. It's gorgeous. If only he didn't have a roach back...... :laugh: 

Sammy has a tight curly cue tail and I'm not fond of it, though he is terribly entertaining when he wriggles it (100x/day) because his whole butt moves with it. LOL 

I prefer the flag waving tail. 

And Rory, the dogs in those pictures are just pitiful!!


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## iluvhavs

And they are in a book regarding the Havanese breed standard! 

Maybe it's too hot in Cuba to brush!?!


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## Tom King

I doubt you will find tight tails on the dogs registered in Cuba. To be allowed to be bred and accepted into the registry they had to undergo a hands on evaluation. They like their "tails waving like flags".They came up with a very ingenious method using hands and fingers to easily measure their required proportions without having anything publicized. Remember theirs was a Government that outlawed the saxophone.

Cuban Relief sent some large bottles of cheap shampoo down there to get some soaped pictures of the dogs some years ago. They said no way they would waste shampoo on the dogs. They divided it up amongst themselves and said they would keep it for special occasions. I hope things are better there now but please don't be so quick to judge. In their showrings the dogs are very well groomed.


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## iluvhavs

LOL, Tom. I love your post! 

Some great information there. We sometimes forget how clean and neat we are here in the northern hemisphere!


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## JASHavanese

Havtahava said:


> Rory, don't feel like you're beating a dead horse. I'm just saying I don't like the tails that the Cuban dogs have. They are very different from those of us that follow the AKC standard for the tail description. That's all. When we see those tails in the ring, we actually call them "Cuban tails" because they stand out to be so different. That's all.


I'm covering Cricket's eyes! Her tail is much like most other havs here and if you look in Zoila's book you'll see tails that are like we have. Why she's pushing the tails that stick up in the air like a J is up for grabs although some have their own theory about it.


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## Carefulove

Tom King said:


> ...*I hope things are better *there now but please don't be so quick to judge. In their showrings the dogs are very well groomed.


Worse Tom, much worse.


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