# Show Quality Puppies



## Leah

What do you as breeders do with your show quality puppies in the event that you are not able to keep them and show them yourselves?

I hate to stir the pot again, but I have gotten the feeling that most "breeders" are selling all puppies with limited registration regardless of their confirmation quality. In another thread where a similar topic was discussed, one breeder who is breeding double champion puppies mentioned that he only sells puppies with limited registration. What about the show quality puppies? Surely, two championAlso parents should produce show quality puppies some of the time. He also mentioned in another thread that he, through his dogs, has produced hundreds of puppies. If this breeder knows who he is, I'd love to hear from him. Otherwise, I'd like to get some input from other breeders.

Just to put your minds at ease, I have no plans to breed either of my puppies.

Also, I apologize for causing waves in otherwise calm waters, but I've never been afraid to ask the hard questions.


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## mellowbo

Leah,
I think there are many "show quality" puppies sold as pets. Unless the breeder and the buyer agree that the puppy will be shown to championship (in which case they will usually co-own), the puppy that is placed as a pet will have limited registration. IMHO, the breeder will also have a spay/neuter clause and not send the AKC papers until shown proof of the puppy's spay/neuter.


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## MopTop Havanese

I can tell you in my experiences, there have been way more interest in pet homes than show homes.
In most litters, there is usually only one or two true show quality pups. Usually breeders keep them, or the 1st pick puppy goes to the stud owner.
So this doesn't leave many show quality pups left. And yes, I have sold puppies as 'pets' then saw that same pup once it was all grown up and kicked myself for not keeping it! But I can tell you, it's very hard to truly know how a puppy is going to turn out when it is just 10 weeks old. So many things can change as the pup grows-


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## Leah

mellowbo said:


> Leah,
> I think there are many "show quality" puppies sold as pets. Unless the breeder and the buyer agree that the puppy will be shown to championship (in which case they will usually co-own), the puppy that is placed as a pet will have limited registration. IMHO, the breeder will also have a spay/neuter clause and not send the AKC papers until shown proof of the puppy's spay/neuter.


IMHO, a spay/neuter clause with a limited registration is redundant. With this attitude, I see this breed dying. Who is to say that all show quality dogs will become champions? One of my mother's best producers never got her last major. She produced five champions, but was not a champion herself. You are short changing the breed by not allow dogs with potential to reach their potential.

May I add, that I purchased a show quality Bichon with an unlimited registration. As much as I love Havs, Bichons may be where I'll have to set my sights in the show ring.


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## Leah

Kate, I hope you're not letting the "pet" market determine how you sell your show quality puppies. When you say the pick of the litter goes to the stud owner, I'm assuming that you're trading a puppy for the stud fee. What about the people who own the stud dog and are selling the show prospects as pets just to sell puppies and limit any potential competition? That's what iriitates the life of out me. How would someone like me ever have a chance to involved in this breed and contribute good quality dogs? I can't see it as anything other than selfishness when someone is willing to work and contribute positively to the breed.


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## MopTop Havanese

Leah-
Did you contact all the show breeders in your area? Have you been to the local shows and met them in person? Would you consider going out of state for a pup? I can guarantee you there are plenty of breeders out there that are willing to sell show quality pups- you have to be willing to wait for the right breeder and the right pup. It isn't going to happen overnight.
My personal experience, with only having one litter a year (except for one year when I did have two litters) the ones I have felt are the 'best of the best' I have kept for myself. I didn't have anyone during those particular litters looking for a show pup.
Yes the breeders that have multiple litters a year will have more show puppies. I see them advertised frequently. Have you joined any of the Havanese forums on the Yahoo groups?
I can tell you this breed is nowhere near dying- they are getting more and more popular as each year passes. Almost 7 years ago when I was looking for my first Hav, a pet female, now that was hard to find! But what we need to do is keep the quality of the breed up. Make sure that dogs are getting into the hands of the right people. I have gotten hundreds of emails looking for 'a cheap Hav to breed'. Ugh. For example, I just puppy sat for a Hav that is from a breeder in my area that does not show, does not health test, just cranks out puppies. And while the puppy that I watched was adorable, she was waay to small for the standard and had some pretty horrible CD in her front legs. So sad.
So please understand, while you may have all the right intentions for showing and breeding (although I thought I remember you saying that showing wasn't something you wanted to do)- we get inquiries every day from people who don't have the right intentions. It's hard when you hear, "I may want to breed _someday_, ya maybe I will try showing, etc" to know who is serious and who isn't. Even in your posts, I am not sure exactly where you want to go with your puppies. You talk alot about breeding/show quality etc, yet say you don't want to show or breed, but then you get a full registration Bichon, and suddenly you do want to show etc. It gets very confusing!


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## AgilityHav

In my opinion, and I feel it is an opinion shared by many breeders on here, our dogs, no matter the quality, are pets first. If they turn out well enough to show and breed, GREAT!! but that is not my first priority. I breed to produce happy, healthy dogs, with great temperaments, and that fit our breed standard. I wont sell puppies to a home where they will solely be a show dog. I require my puppies to be pets. If they are shown, great.

And yes, two show quality parents will most of the time produce a litter with show quality puppies in it. BUT, again, producing the next BIS winning dog is not my purpose, showing is something I do on the side that helps me make sure I am on the right track when it comes to our standard, producing healthy, correct dogs is what we should all strive for, not producing champions.

I, along with other breeders on here, will sell to show/breeding homes. My Harley(the boy on the cover of the magazine) went to a show home. His owner had only ever owned one show dog before, a Great Dane, BUT after getting to know her very well, and getting a very good feel for her intentions(which is to show, and *maybe* down the line get a girl to *maybe* try her hand at breeding after she has spent a few years learning the breed) I felt confident placing a show puppy with her. Did I co-own him? Of course.

Also, I too place my pet puppies with a limited reg. AND a spay/neuter contract. The reason for this is that a limited reg. just means a dog's puppies can't be registered....It doesn’t mean the dog can't be bred, and it dosn't mean that the owners couldn't advertise pups as "from AKC reg. parents". The limited reg. helps to a certain extent, but nothing prevents unwanted breedings like a few snips in very special places


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## mellowbo

A responsible havanese breeder will want to control, to their best ability, the future of their breed. To let anyone just take a puppy, and breed it wherever, can often lead to health issues. I, for one, pray havanese breeders are very selective! It is terrible to see cd, liver, heart, skin, eye, etc. problems with any dog! 
As Katie said, I'm sure there are opportunities out there. It take patience and tons of research.
It is not about being selfish at all, it is about caring. Again, as Katie said, the breed is FAR from dying out!

On edit, well said Natasha!


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## Leah

mellowbo said:


> A responsible havanese breeder will want to control, to their best ability, the future of their breed. To let anyone just take a puppy, and breed it wherever, can often lead to health issues. I, for one, pray havanese breeders are very selective! It is terrible to see cd, liver, heart, skin, eye, etc. problems with any dog!
> As Katie said, I'm sure there are opportunities out there. It take patience and tons of research.
> It is not about being selfish at all, it is about caring. Again, as Katie said, the breed is FAR from dying out!
> 
> On edit, well said Natasha!


You are assuming that EVERYBODY is irresponsible.


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## Leah

AgilityHav said:


> In my opinion, and I feel it is an opinion shared by many breeders on here, our dogs, no matter the quality, are pets first.


You've said this before and I've explained to you that "pet" in reference to a discussion about confirmation refers to the show confimation quality of the dog. A dog is either show quality or pet quality. They are ALL pets in your sense of the word.


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## MopTop Havanese

"You've said this before and I've explained to you that "pet" in reference to a discussion about confirmation refers to the show confimation quality of the dog. A dog is either show quality or pet quality. They are ALL pets in your sense of the word."

Absolutely not true. She is referring to how the dog is raised/treated. Trust me, there are some show dogs out there who's feet never get touch the grass outside, they don't get to live in the house with the owner, they are kept crated to 'protect the coat' (or whatever) and not allowed to run and play and 'be a dog'. This is what Natasha is referring to when she says she wants her dogs to be 'pets' first- showdogs second.


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## CacheHavs

Leah,
I have been in dogs for over 30 years, and been in different breeds in that time. I for one never guarantee a "Show Quality" puppy. I may only have Show Potential puppies as I can not determine how the puppy will grow and develop for sure. When I breed I breed for myself when I am ready to keep a puppy for myself to hopefully carry on my lines. I do not breed just to have puppies to sell.
Occasionally I may have another puppy that I would like to see go into a show home, but then again I would take a pet home first any day. For many years I would take in and help out and mentor new comers, but I will say that that too has finally taken its toll on me with people that seem to think that they know all when they talk to another breeder about a dog they got from me and that breeder tells them that they are not of quality, and then they come back to me to jump down my throat, when in fact they (the owner nor the other breeder) know anything about my lines. For example I had a nice bitch that I was going to keep for my self, but I had a new comer that was dying to get into showing etc. so I let her buy this nice girl. She goes to a show just to check it out and meets another breeder. She shows this girl to the breeder and the breeder tells her she got ripped off. I offer to take the dog back, but she wanted her cake and eat it too. After dealing with lawyers and going to court I get my dog back. I got her into shape for showing and in 3 shows she was finished.
So for me I have decided that I no longer want to sell to potential show homes unless I have gotten to know or have known the person for some time. I don't need nor want the headaches anymore. Did I say that I would never sell to a new comer again? No but it will take a lot more convincing me to do so. as when I sell my puppies I am there for my buyers through out the dogs life and I will mentor when needed or when asked.
I have only been in the Havanese breed since 2003 and I have already had some issues like these, so I just find it best for me to not sell to show homes unless I have known you for awhile and I have seen that you are very serious in learning about the breed and showing and willing to go the extra mile for health testing etc. and I feel comfortable that it won't become a nightmare situation.

I also wanted to say that just because two champion parents are bred together does not necessarily mean that they will have show potential pups, yes there should be, but not all breedings will cross right.

 I believe that not all dogs that obtain a Championship, should be considered as breeding quality just because it may have a "CH." In front of their name. Almost any dog can obtain a Ch. If with a Professional handler. So PLEASE do not be misled by breeders stating they only breed champions. Same as Not all dogs were meant to be Champions, this has no bearing on their quality, at least for us. In order for a dog to be a successful show dog, they must show that they are literally comfortable in their surroundings and be able to strut their stuff at the dog shows.

  We Show our own dogs and if it is something they hate, then we do not force them to do what they hate to do, as we love them too much to make their lives miserable. 

 I hope this helps you see it from my point of view, though I am sure some of the other breeders will share some of their reasons.


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## Leah

Katie......I know what you're saying is true about breeders willing to mentor. My problem is that attitude of the too many of the people on this forum. There is no shortage of words of encouragement and ahhhs over puppies, but nothing else.

My mother was a successful breeder of Shetland Sheepdogs and a very good friend of the owner of Kismet Kennels (http://www.kismetkennels.com/). I never heard any of this kind of attitude from Guy or Themla Mauldin EVER.

If this is the attitude of Havanese breeders so be it.


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## Leah

Heather.......I never said any dog was guaranteed to do anything. I know the odds of champion parents producing a champion offspring. I've been around dog breeding for 46 years. I know how it works.

I just don't care for the attitude.


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## MopTop Havanese

Leah- I am sorry if you had a bad experience with a breeder here on the Forum- there really aren't too many breeders here, most of the people that are here on the Forum are just die-hard Havanese owners and lovers!
When you get lots of people together that all have a passion for the same thing, you are going to get lot's of 'opinions'- You have to learn to take them with a grain of salt. There is NO WAY that everyone is going to agree on the same things, or have the same thoughts, or agree on what is right or wrong. The world would be a pretty boring place if we all had to think the exact same-


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## CacheHavs

I'm sorry that you feel that way...I have not seen any attitude from the other breeders, it seems you ask the questions and we are trying to give you an answer but then we are the ones that have the attitude??? Go figure, I hope then you get the answers you are looking for.


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## AgilityHav

Leah said:


> Katie......I know what you're saying is true about breeders willing to mentor. My problem is that attitude of the too many of the people on this forum. There is no shortage of words of encouragement and ahhhs over puppies, but nothing else.
> 
> If this is the attitude of Havanese breeders so be it.


Im not exactly sure what you mean about the attitude....I also have experience in a variety of dif. breeds(from Wiemaraners to Belgian Tervs to Chinese Cresteds to Afghans) and ALL of the breeders generally follow the same terms that the breeders in Havs do....I haven't seen that anyone is giving you personally attitude, or having an attitude towards show-puppy buyers in general...

As far as nothing else on the forum...have you read the MANY health related topics, the educational topics? Yes, there is a lot of "ahhs" but they're puppies, of course there will be "ahhs"!!

Maybe it is because it is nearly 1am, but I am not understanding you...you ask these questions, we give honest, friendly answers, and you come back saying we are giving you attitude....
If all you want to do is talk about the "way things were" then start a thread about they way things used to be...don't ask questions, then criticize the answers you get, you ask the "tough questions" so here are the "tough" answers!


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## BeverlyA

Leah,

When I first started looking into getting a Havanese 5 years ago, I felt like I would never be considered "good enough" by a reputable breeder to get one of their puppies. I had shown horses before but didn't know anything about showing dogs, but I was one of those people that was saying, "well maybe I _would _like to show," and breeders acted like I straight off a puppy mill. I'm sure being from Nebraska, a huge mill state didn't help either.
I didn't know what to ask about and in hind-sight, I don't blame those breeders for not selling me a show puppy.
I have stuck with the breed and tried to learn everything I could. I have gone to every dog show that might have a Havanese and introduced my very shy self to people that I'm sure weren't that interested in meeting me. I have gone to the Havanese Nationals when I didn't know a single person in the hopes of meeting some Havanese people and learning more about the breed. I have purchased all the Havanese books I can find to try and learn, I have read about genetics and breeding practices and health issues and history. I have joined all the Yahoo groups and my breeders online group along with this Forum. I've gone through the steps and I'm now a member of HRI. 
What's my point? The point is, now what may be perceived as an "attitude" is generally a concern and protection for their puppies and the breed in general. I _want _the breeders to be taking the business of who gets a show puppy seriously.
I have been met with nothing but kindness by the breeders that I have now met in person and that's an attitude I appreciate.

Beverly


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## Scooter's Family

Leah said:


> Katie......I know what you're saying is true about breeders willing to mentor. My problem is that attitude of the too many of the people on this forum. There is no shortage of words of encouragement and ahhhs over puppies, but nothing else.


I sure would like to know what you mean about "nothing else". I have posted a LOT about my dogs, asked so many questions, described strange poop/throw up, asked for and received great advice, asked for help with issues completely unrelated to dogs, and gotten nothing but sound responses filled with concern for my dogs, myself, and my family. I have made many close friends here but I've never even seen their faces or heard their voices.

Like Beverly, I went to Nationals and didn't know a soul in person. I was welcomed with open arms, hugged by most everyone I did meet in person, and made what I hope will be life long friends. I've invited so many strangers to my home that are now friends to whom I speak daily.

When I joined this forum I knew NOTHING about any dogs, I still don't know much but most all of what I've learned has been from the generous people here who are always willing to share their knowledge. When I've posted about a problem I get many follow up messages asking for updates. I can't even count how many times a post on here has saved me a vet call or visit because my mind was put at ease.

I don't know what you're looking for here. Before you criticize perhaps you should make a point of meeting more Havanese breeders who are showing and raising champions, maybe then their motivation for improving this breed will be clearer to you.


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## ama0722

Leah- I think the other part you are missing is what many members of this forum are also involved in. Breeding should not be taken lightly and I thank the breeders who honestly only breed to continue their line and preserve the standard. As for each of them, I am sure there are at least 10 breeders who just breed to sell puppies and make some money with no intention of making the breed better. This breed has significantly grown in popularity in the last decade and many havanese have been bred for the wrong reasons, many end up with health issues, and many end up in the hands of rescue as well-we see all of these issues on the forum as well.


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## Tom King

Conformation 

That's an "O" after the "f". "Confirmation" is something else.

The breeders here are not the ones with an attitude. The last I checked (haven't looked at a Gazzette for a while), there were over 400 litters registered every month and over 400 AKC Champions finished every year. The breed is not in danger other than being bred too much by irresponsible breeders. 

There are plenty of breeders who will fall all over themselves to sell a dog to go in the ring. We turn down someone every couple of weeks with a purse large enough to pay Handlers with an advertising budget looking for a dog to Special. Success in the ring is as much or more a contest of grooming and handling with an advertising budget as it is about conformation. To have one of ours in the ring under someone else is low on the list of what we look for in owners. 

Look to fairly new breeders who Special dogs and put every offspring they can in a show home. They are not hard to find.


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## SMARTY

Leah, I know exactly where your attitude comes from. Being from the “past” dog show experience I did not understand the questions or the limitations Havanese or AKC Breeders wanted to put on the dog I wanted to buy. In my past life, when I as showing and breeding there was only one kind of AKC registration, no limits on what happened to the dogs once they left my home. You simply talked to the buyers, got the money and hoped you had done the best you could for the puppy or dog. 

Times have changed. The internet is the main reason. With puppy mills and a little higher on the scale commercial breeders buyers can think they are buying from a reputable breeder and are not. Most buyers have no idea what questions to ask about health testing, I sure didn’t. You see the picture or video, settle on a price and get a puppy. Flip side of that is you are a mill going to breeders as an individual looking for breeding stock and want unlimited papers .

If you want a show puppy, go to shows, join a local breed or all breed club. Do your homework. I was asking some questions this weekend about some of the dogs in the ring, many should not have been in the ring and certainly should never be bred for the betterment of the breed, and the answer I got from an experienced breeder was ‘you have to start somewhere if the better breeders will not sell you a show puppy”. 

Two sides to the issues. I like this way better than what we did in the past.


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## mckennasedona

Is the original question about showing or breeding? I'm pretty certain that if I went to my breeder or one of the breeders I know, and told them I seriously wanted to get into showing Havs they would be willing to mentor me and probably sell me a show potential puppy if they had one available at the time (or co-own it with me as the case may be). Perhaps there are simply more show breeders near me, or perhaps they are more willing to mentor than some. I honestly don't see the difficulty of getting into the hobby if a breeder knows me and knows that my intentions are good in terms of studying the breed, maintaining breed quality, and meeting breed standards.


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## mintchip

mckennasedona said:


> Is the original question about showing or breeding? *I'm pretty certain that if I went to my breeder or one of the breeders I know, and told them I seriously wanted to get into showing Havs they would be willing to mentor me and probably sell me a show potential puppy if they had one available at the time (or co-own it with me as the case may be). Perhaps there are simply more show breeders near me, or perhaps they are more willing to mentor than some. I honestly don't see the difficulty of getting into the hobby if a breeder knows me and knows that my intentions are good in terms of studying the breed, maintaining breed quality, and meeting breed standards.*


Susan I agree 100%


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## mellowbo

Well, I, for one, like the general attitude of this wonderful forum! We are dog people. We love all dogs, especially our Havanese. We are and will remain protective of each beating little heart. And we protect each other. As Ann said, we have become good, hopefully lifetime friends. 
I think that if I wanted to, I would be able to buy a show dog and show and breed it. And do it the right way, with a lot of great mentoring! 
I seriously do not know where you are coming from.........Hopefully our attitude is the same you will find on each breed forum.


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## pjewel

mellowbo said:


> Well, I, for one, like the general attitude of this wonderful forum! We are dog people. We love all dogs, especially our Havanese. We are and will remain protective of each beating little heart. And we protect each other. As Ann said, we have become good, hopefully lifetime friends.
> I think that if I wanted to, I would be able to buy a show dog and show and breed it. And do it the right way, with a lot of great mentoring!
> *I seriously do not know where you are coming from.........Hopefully our attitude is the same you will find on each breed forum.*


Based upon my discussions with members of other breed forums, people are not always as nice as the general population here.


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## Kathy

Leah,
While I appreciate you apologizing up front in your first post on this thread, I am offended by your constant rude, uneducated comments about Havanese breeders and their varied practices. You ask questions that a person with the experience you claim you have should know. Then when nice, good, people try to respond to your question, you come back in what seems to be a negative way.

If you are interested in showing a dog no matter what breed, you should go to dog show and meet other exhibitors of the breed you have a passion for. Join a club, build a relationship with a breeder that you can trust and respect and the breeder feels the same way about you. Sign up for seminars, attend the breed national, join the rescue group, learn, learn, learn.

NO ONE should breed any dog just because. I feel very strongly about that. 

Why do you care how breeders decide to sell their puppies if you don't want to show or breed? No need to respond to that question, I think we all know.


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## BeverlyA

Thinking about it I have a few more cents to add 

This is NOT a Forum of breeders. We are really darn lucky to have some fabulous breeders that ARE members that are generous enough to share their experiences and expertise with us. If you are looking for a forum of breeders for that specific support, you should go to the Yahoo group for breeders. 

When I was mentioning the kindness of the breeders, I didn't mean JUST the breeders that I have been lucky enough to meet through the Forum, but the breeders that I pushed myself on at shows and especially at the Nationals. They still don't "know" me, but maybe after attending so many, they are figuring out that I am serious and committed to this beautiful breed.

My first Hav is a product of someone who IMHO, doesn't take breeding seriously enough, produces too many puppies, without regard to the personalities that are resulting. It is like night and day the differences between my two Hav's.

Beverly


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## Posh's Mom

MopTop Havanese said:


> Leah-
> Did you contact all the show breeders in your area? Have you been to the local shows and met them in person? Would you consider going out of state for a pup? I can guarantee you there are plenty of breeders out there that are willing to sell show quality pups- you have to be willing to wait for the right breeder and the right pup. It isn't going to happen overnight.
> My personal experience, with only having one litter a year (except for one year when I did have two litters) the ones I have felt are the 'best of the best' I have kept for myself. I didn't have anyone during those particular litters looking for a show pup.
> Yes the breeders that have multiple litters a year will have more show puppies. I see them advertised frequently. Have you joined any of the Havanese forums on the Yahoo groups?
> I can tell you this breed is nowhere near dying- they are getting more and more popular as each year passes. Almost 7 years ago when I was looking for my first Hav, a pet female, now that was hard to find! But what we need to do is keep the quality of the breed up. Make sure that dogs are getting into the hands of the right people. I have gotten hundreds of emails looking for 'a cheap Hav to breed'. Ugh. For example, I just puppy sat for a Hav that is from a breeder in my area that does not show, does not health test, just cranks out puppies. And while the puppy that I watched was adorable, she was waay to small for the standard and had some pretty horrible CD in her front legs. So sad.
> So please understand, while you may have all the right intentions for showing and breeding (although I thought I remember you saying that showing wasn't something you wanted to do)- we get inquiries every day from people who don't have the right intentions. It's hard when you hear, "I may want to breed _someday_, ya maybe I will try showing, etc" to know who is serious and who isn't. Even in your posts, I am not sure exactly where you want to go with your puppies. You talk alot about breeding/show quality etc, yet say you don't want to show or breed, but then you get a full registration Bichon, and suddenly you do want to show etc. It gets very confusing!


:amen:
i am so lost from your very first post leah. what the heck are you asking/commenting/irked about?


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## marjrc

All the posts from breeders here are bang on, polite and professional and I commend you for that. I'm not even a breeder and I'm starting to lose patience! :frusty:

I don't understand what your point is, Leah... At first I thought you were simply curious. Heck, it's a rather innocent question after all, *"What do you as breeders do with your show quality puppies in the event that you are not able to keep them and show them yourselves?" * but then you come back and criticize Havanese breeders in particular. There is nothing special, negative, or 'wrong' about Hav breeders any more than breeders of other types of dogs! It almost feels like you're picking some issues you have to death. Read the posts by those breeders that have commented here so far and please learn from that. Really, what more do you want to know??

Or are you just trying to "cause waves in otherwise calm waters, but I've never been afraid to ask the hard questions." ???


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## Kathy

Also very interesting you say you haven't had any puppies, yet I found pictures you have shared on this forum of your two pups on several web sites advertising puppies for sale as well as on a web site for Hidden Bay Havanese.


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## galaxie

^ How weird, because I just posted a thread in General Discussion about Jamie Walker Tudor who is also apparently of Hidden Bay Havanese.

Leah also said she has a Bichon, which would explain the Bichon/Havanese puppies advertised by Jamie...hmmm.


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## galaxie

Tom King said:


> Conformation
> 
> That's an "O" after the "f". "Confirmation" is something else.


THANK YOU TOM! This was driving me absolutely bonkers.


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## mintchip

:fish::fish::fish::fish::fish:
http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=11045


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## Leah

galaxie said:


> ^ How weird, because I just posted a thread in General Discussion about Jamie Walker Tudor who is also apparently of Hidden Bay Havanese.
> 
> Leah also said she has a Bichon, which would explain the Bichon/Havanese puppies advertised by Jamie...hmmm.


You have no clue what you're talking about. I bought my Havanese puppies in North Texas and my Bichon in South Texas

Get your story straight before you start slandering people.


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## galaxie

Slander? Look up the definition of slander before you suggest that someone is slandering you.


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## Scooter's Family

Funny that Lean and Jamie said almost exactly the same thing, Leah here and Jamie on FB.


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## galaxie

^ haha I was just about to post that.

People who have something to hide always scream slander when they're being found out!


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## Leah

Just exactly what is wrong with her? Why is she your favorite target today?

Also, how are you any better than she or I?


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## Leah

Thank you, Sandi. I have come to this realization. I plan to get involved in a breed club, etc. I know exactly how it's done from watching my mother when she got started in Shelties.

The changes have been a very rude awakening. It's heartbreaking.



SMARTY said:


> Leah, I know exactly where your attitude comes from. Being from the "past" dog show experience I did not understand the questions or the limitations Havanese or AKC Breeders wanted to put on the dog I wanted to buy. In my past life, when I as showing and breeding there was only one kind of AKC registration, no limits on what happened to the dogs once they left my home. You simply talked to the buyers, got the money and hoped you had done the best you could for the puppy or dog.
> 
> Times have changed. The internet is the main reason. With puppy mills and a little higher on the scale commercial breeders buyers can think they are buying from a reputable breeder and are not. Most buyers have no idea what questions to ask about health testing, I sure didn't. You see the picture or video, settle on a price and get a puppy. Flip side of that is you are a mill going to breeders as an individual looking for breeding stock and want unlimited papers .
> 
> If you want a show puppy, go to shows, join a local breed or all breed club. Do your homework. I was asking some questions this weekend about some of the dogs in the ring, many should not have been in the ring and certainly should never be bred for the betterment of the breed, and the answer I got from an experienced breeder was 'you have to start somewhere if the better breeders will not sell you a show puppy".
> 
> Two sides to the issues. I like this way better than what we did in the past.


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## Leah

Don't worry about it, Marj. It has nothing to do with you and it's not your problem. Go play with your puppy.



marjrc said:


> All the posts from breeders here are bang on, polite and professional and I commend you for that. I'm not even a breeder and I'm starting to lose patience! :frusty:
> 
> I don't understand what your point is, Leah... At first I thought you were simply curious. Heck, it's a rather innocent question after all, *"What do you as breeders do with your show quality puppies in the event that you are not able to keep them and show them yourselves?" * but then you come back and criticize Havanese breeders in particular. There is nothing special, negative, or 'wrong' about Hav breeders any more than breeders of other types of dogs! It almost feels like you're picking some issuIes you have to death. Read the posts by those breeders that have commented here so far and please learn from that. Really, what more do you want to know??
> 
> Or are you just trying to "cause waves in otherwise calm waters, but I've never been afraid to ask the hard questions." ???


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## galaxie

Leah said:


> Just exactly what is wrong with her? Why is she your favorite target today?
> 
> Also, how are you any better than she or I?


I don't represent myself as being something that I'm not. I have stated several times in the thread specifically about her that she is not a reputable breeder for MANY reasons.

I am not suggesting that I am better, because I am not a breeder, nor do I ever plan to be. I respond to situations that I am passionate about - irresponsible breeders being one of them.

If you don't like it, tough.


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## trueblue

Leah, dude...what's your problem? You ask questions, you get answers, then you get pissed off? You have 2 puppies...why the hell are you looking for a breeder anyway? How 'bout those hard questions?


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## Leah

The attitude that I don't care for is not specific to Havanese breeders. In fact, it may not be applicable to "true" Havanese breeders who are in the breed for more than selling puppies. I'm not going to repeat my history in dogs just for you. If you don't like what I have to say, then scroll on.

You have no clue who I am and what I think. Nor do I of you.



Kathy said:


> Leah,
> While I appreciate you apologizing up front in your first post on this thread, I am offended by your constant rude, uneducated comments about Havanese breeders and their varied practices. You ask questions that a person with the experience you claim you have should know. Then when nice, good, people try to respond to your question, you come back in what seems to be a negative way.
> 
> If you are interested in showing a dog no matter what breed, you should go to dog show and meet other exhibitors of the breed you have a passion for. Join a club, build a relationship with a breeder that you can trust and respect and the breeder feels the same way about you. Sign up for seminars, attend the breed national, join the rescue group, learn, learn, learn.
> 
> NO ONE should breed any dog just because. I feel very strongly about that.
> 
> Why do you care how breeders decide to sell their puppies if you don't want to show or breed? No need to respond to that question, I think we all know.


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## Leah

trueblue said:


> Leah, dude...what's your problem? You ask questions, you get answers, then you get pissed off? You have 2 puppies...why the hell are you looking for a breeder anyway? How 'bout those hard questions?


Perhaps, these two puppies are just the beginning of a career in showing, breeding and improving the breed.

Can't I have more than two puppies, dude?


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## marjrc

Leah said:


> Don't worry about it, Marj. It has nothing to do with you and it's not your problem. Go play with your puppy.


Excuse me??!!! :suspicious: That's it. I'm done with this mess.


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## mellowbo

Leah said:


> The attitude that I don't care for is not specific to Havanese breeders. In fact, it may not be applicable to "true" Havanese breeders who are in the breed for more than selling puppies. I'm not going to repeat my history in dogs just for you. If you don't like what I have to say, then scroll on.
> 
> You have no clue who I am and what I think. Nor do I of you.


Nope, you really don't have a clue.......


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## AgilityHav

Leah said:


> Perhaps, these two puppies are just the beginning of a career in showing, breeding and improving the breed.
> 
> Can't I have more than two puppies, dude?


Well, I think most reputable breeders on here would agree that having two Havanese puppies at one time is enough.....Adding a few more on top of that, as soon as you get the first two is sort of the definition of irresponsible...

Plus, haven't you said several times that you have no interest in breeding or showing havs?! my goodness........

I don't feel anyone on here is against anyone asking questions of any kind...but redundant questions asked, with rude responses is just....annoying....I'm with marj....I'm done feeding the drama....

:tape:


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## galaxie

Leah said:


> Perhaps, these two puppies are just the beginning of a career in showing, breeding and improving the breed.
> 
> Can't I have more than two puppies, dude?


Who is going to take care of more than two puppies? Potty train, love, care for them? Havanese puppies are extremely demanding, you think you can handle more than two? You're out of your mind.

PETS FIRST, SHOW DOGS LAST. You wouldn't get pregnant, give birth, then adopt 3 more kids at the same time, would you? So why would you do this with dogs?


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## Julie

Like I posted on another thread you started Leah----I'm asking you to take a time out.


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## TnTWalter

Leah said:


> Just to put your minds at ease, I have no plans to breed either of my puppies.


We can only hope you mean it.eace:


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## lfung5

Oh my God. Who is with this Leah person? A lot has happened since I got 2 feet of snow and have been too busy to read the forum. It's funny when reading peoples threads, I tend to have a picture in my mind what people look like. Leah, you don't want to know what is in my head. Your personality is such a turn off. You are so abrasive. Can't believe you were a CPA and actually dealt with people. Scary thought and also good meds to treat this condition.


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## lfung5

TnTWalter said:


> We can only hope you mean it.eace:


I doubt it.


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