# The Sorrow and The Pity



## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

Oh the wailing... it's like she's being crucified, the sounds that come out of her when she's left alone for a second. This little one is feeling her oats, coming out of her shell in a big way, and she wants what she wants! Which is to go where she pleases, chew on everything, eat as much as possible, and not be confined in any way. She's not a fan of the ex pen, though she does settle eventually. If I leave the room it starts up, then dies off, then starts up again when I come back in.

The first night was rough, the second night was perfect - not a peep till morning and no potties, third night middle of the night waking up crying but no potties, and then last night waking up crying several times, and this morning a pee puddle right in front of her bed, even though her potty pan was another foot and a half away. I'm not sure if the crying was because she had to go and wanted to go outside for it, I told her to quiet down thinking she'd use the pad (the whole point of the ex pen at night). I didn't want to get her out of the pen, thereby reinforcing that crying works for this, but on the other hand if was trying to tell me she needed to pee and wanted to do it outside (as we've been working on), then I kind of blew that one. 

This morning I put some newspaper in half of the frame, since that is what the breeder used and maybe she doesn't understand the pee pad. Of course right now she's laying down on it. I'll try that one or two more nights, but her crate came yesterday, and I'm already tossing treats and feeding her in it, so I think I will try to transition to that ASAP. I hope it works, it's definitely too big for her right now, but will be a slightly generous size when she's full grown. If she's not going to use the pee pad, I don't know what the point of the ex pen is except to contain her during the day when I can't watch her, especially if she's waking me up in the middle of the night anyway. 

I did, however, want the pee pad to be a known alternative for situations where I can't get her outside. Should I start putting her on it when I think she has to go, or will that just confuse the outside training? I really thought she would know what it's for, but it seems like it's just an alternative bed, even though I scented it with some of her pee from this morning.

I'm still SOOOOOO exhausted. She's taking it out of me, this little pipsqueak. I got virtually nothing done yesterday. She's insanely cute, though, and I think I will appreciate that more when I've had a few good nights sleep.


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## letter4tony (Jan 30, 2009)

We didn't get our puppy yet, but what I plan on doing is burning our puppy out before he goes in the crate for the night.

Taking him for a long walk at 10:30pm till 11:30pm to tire him out, or playing with him if walks don't last that long and then crating him. He shoudln't have to potty again till 3 or 4 so if he is panting and whining before 2, you know he just wants attention, so don't give him any. I know it's going to be hard ignoring him, but you'd just have to (at least that's waht I'm preping myself for!) If he wakes up around 4ish and whines, he probably needs to pee, in that case, just take him out of the crate and put him on the pad, or walk him outside for like 5 minuets, let him pee (while ignoring him because it is NOT play time, it's SLEEP time) and back into the crate with a treat!

Again, we didn't even get our puppy yet, so I'm probably talking about of my behind. I really don't know what I'm geting myself into until our puppy comes. Till then, all I can do is research research research, and mentally prepare myself for whats' to come hoping I can take it. Hang in there!

In regards to the walking in and out of the room, I would definiteyl try to reinforce the fact that I wont' be home all the tiem with him at an early age of his life. I'm taking a week off from work so I can really settle him in. But towards the near end of my week off, I will begin going ina nd out of the house leaving him in his ex-pen for 5 minutes here.. then another 5, then 10 then 30 then an hour etc... till he can understand he needs to be alone. he'll have lots of toys of course.

I have like a TON of reading material at my home computer, unfortunately i'm at work. I'll have to visit this thread once again when I'm home.


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## kelrobin (Jan 21, 2008)

Diane, I feel your pain! I remember the sleepless nights and the crying, but I think once you put her in the crate, you will start to have better success. It sounds like she is a little confused right now. 

Jackson never had an accident in his crate although he hated it. If I had to do it over again, I would use pee pads while they are little, but that middle of the night thing is tiring. I finally put Jackson and our lab down in our old whelping room one night without the crate (around 14-15 weeks), and not only did he not have an accident, I got some sleep!! How old is Violet again?


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

Kathy, Violet is about 12 weeks. I know she _can_ hold it all night because she has on 2 of our 4 nights here, but maybe that varies depending on when her last drink was. I did pick up the water bowl in the evening.

I thought, too, that the ex pen with the potty pan would solve the middle of the night issue. I figured, if anything, she might use it and then whine because she had gotten awake to pee, and wanted to wake me up too to play. I'm not sure why the peeing next to it instead of on it. I scented it this morning with some of that misplaced puddle, and right now she is lying on top of that pee spot, like it's her bed. Yuk.

We started the bell training, but there's a glitch in that already because she likes to walk over and chew on them, which is not the same as ringing to go out, but I can't tell that unless I see her do it.

I would switch to the crate in a heartbeat if she was already acclimated to it. I am sort of expecting the worst, given how much she seems to hate confinement, and I try to make the ex pen a nice place for her. She's not buying it.... She reminds me SO much of my last dog that way.

I'm starting to wonder if my breeder was right about having her sleep in another room from the get-go, despite all the advice here to the contrary.


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## DAJsMom (Oct 27, 2006)

We got Dusty a little older, at 7-8 months. I vividly remember her breeder telling us to put her in the ex-pen while we ate dinner. We did, and she screeched! My DH and I looked at each other, and said, "oh, this sound is what no one told us about before we got a havanese!" It was so loud and high-pitched! She really wanted out! Fortunately that behavior didn't last long, and she was already crate-trained at night. 

From what I read here, your experience is pretty typical of those who bring home a new puppy! It will settle down soon. Violet will get used to the routine at your house, whatever it is, and you will get used to her. She will soon be holding it all night and sleeping and you will get some sleep too. She'll either figure out how to use the pee pads or learn to ask to go outside. She will learn to ring the bells and learn not to chew on them. You are doing the right things. Just stick with it and you will begin to see what is working! She will get used to the crate and the ex-pen. We used the ex-pen mainly to confine the dogs when we were not home. They both run right in when it's time for us to leave. We usually gave them a treat for going into the ex-pen too. Same with the crate. We feed in the crates and they sleep in them at night. Both dogs go in willingly, and we give treats at bedtime. Keep up the good work and don't worry too much. You'll get there!


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Diane, I'm a little confused. Has Violet ever been introduced to pee pads before you got her? If she was only used to peeing on newspaper, she obviously has no clue what a framed pee pad is for, to her it may be a nice and clean bed. You would have to transition her step by step. I would remove the frame, put down newspaper (or whatever she was peeing on at the breeder's) on top of a pad and gradually (over a couple of weeks) put less and less news paper on the pad. You also might want to 'pour' some of the pee sitting on the newspaper onto the pad so she can smell the potty area. Once she pees on the pad only, you can add the frame.
I crated Pablo over night, in the morning when I knew he would have to potty, I carried him from the crate onto the pad in the ex-pen and told him to go potty. I waited quietly until he was done and then it was party, play, and eat time.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Diane, I really think Violet should be in a crate overnight. Especially if you want her to be able to hold it. That being said, it sounds like she doesn't realize what the pee pads are for. What I would do if I were you is to cover the ENTIRE area underneath her bed with pee pads. I do mean all of it. When she pees on it (and there's nowhere else to go), praise her a lot. Then, slowly over the days, take away a pad one at a time. If she has another accident, put another pad down again. For every day of zero accident, take a pad away, for every accident put another one down. Do this until she really understands that the pee pads are for peeing. Don't worry about her laying down on it... Kubrick will still take a toy to the pee pad and put it on there while he pees... and then he gets confused as to why it's now dirty, LOL. Hitchcock used to lie down on his pee pads all the time - sometimes even on one that had been peed on! He grew out of that eventually, but he would do it in the beginning.

Also, as far as her not being acclimated to the crate... when I first got Kubrick (single dog) he was used to being in an expen, no crates. I put him in the expen and oh my lord the horror! You'd think I was killing this dog! This went on for a week or more and meanwhile I was freaking out thinking I am never going to be able to leave my house... I'll be stuck here forever (yes, I did sound delusional didn't I?). After a week I decided that instead I was going to put him in his crate - especially because I was trying to get him to learn how to hold his pee. And wouldn't you know - not a peep out of him! It turns out that the expen was just too much space for him and he was completely overwhelmed. When I put him in the crate it was like magic and he totally settled down - he did cry once or twice, but nothing like the earlier nightmare. Eventually I would put him in his crate when I was ready to leave the house but left the door open into his expen so he could feel like he had that secure place to go into but he wasn't as constrained. And later I was able to do away with the crate for when I left altogether. I do have to say that I rarely if ever left Kubrick in his expen/crate when I was home as I was watching him like a HAWK the whole time and he was only allowed in one room of the house. I did use the expen with Hitchcock but stopped using it when he became more reliable around the house. Hope this helps!


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

I did want to add that I missed the whole newspaper comment and that I agree with Maryam about getting her used to going on the pee pads. However, I think my advice about covering the entire area with pee pads/newspaper is still valid.


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Carolina, we cross posted. I think your advice with covering up the area with several pads is awesome. Just gotta make sure she doesn't think that pads are for sleeping and her bed is for peeing :laugh: Sorry Diane, I know you're stressed out, you've gotten some great advice though and Violet seems very smart!


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## HavaBaloo (Mar 24, 2009)

Re: The Sorrow and The Pity

Come on now Diane, I can't believe you would actually leave Violet alone for more then 30 seconds...you know I can find out where you live and come confiscate her for....ummm lets say "for life" hahah   Just Kidding. It will come, of course she doesn't want her new Mommy to leave....she loves you already and wants you wrapped around her paw.

Seriously though, I know you both will get in your groove before you know it. Sorry I don't have any great advice, but I sure am enjoying reading as you both get used to each other..... Maybe if we had more pics, we might be able to help you more


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Maryam, LOL, I'm only telling her to keep the bed in there as she specifically said that Violet went out of her bed to pee, so she already views it as a den of sorts. And Diane, I know you're stressed out but try to relax a little - trust me I know this is easier said then done. Violet can really pick up on your stress level so it's best you stay calm and assertive, as I'm sure you're trying your best to be.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

I guess I must be a real bad mommy. Gabby only lasted one night in her crate between our pillows on the bed. The second night she let out this PITYFUL loud noise like she was dying. So, true to form, I let her out to sleep on the bed with the rest of us. I put cushions all over the floor around the bed just in case and she slept like a baby and has ever since. 
Carole


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

thanks you guys, I am trying the pee pad all over the floor of the ex pen idea since my yorkie was trained to newspaper and it used to puddle around her feet and she'd track it through the house, I'd prefer these pads as a backup potty. I have not yet used her potty word for them, though, I've only done that outside. If she's going to pee or poop in the ex pen, now it will have to land on a pad, assuming she doesn't shred them, which wouldn't surprise me as she has already tried on the one in the frame. It'll be interesting to see if she makes the association as I pick them up. I can only fit 3 in there with the tray, maybe 4 overlapping.

It's funny, she does not like the gravel for pooping. She will choose grass if she can. Really for either, I think. Today she consented to leave a tootsie on the gravel because she had to go pretty bad and I didn't give her a choice, I ran her out there when I saw her starting to circle in the house. She whined and protested and grumbled while in the middle of it! 

Actually believe it or not, I'm not stressing around her, being very calm, mostly venting that here! I am sort of too tired to act aggravated. I know she'll eventually get it, I am just hoping not to confuse her with my own brand of logic here that might not be working. I'm not sure how to accomplish what I want, which is outside potty the majority of the time, but pee pad when I tell her so, or leave one for her when I know we will be gone longer than she can likely hold it. 

With my being here all the time (so far, anyway), she hasn't had much opportunity to potty in the ex pen on the pad because I take her out so much.


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## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

It does get better !!! Promise.


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## kelrobin (Jan 21, 2008)

Most dogs will always choose grass or a wooded area. I wouldn't want to go on gravel either::biggrin1: Plus, as they get older, a lot of times they will want to kick the area from behind as if to cover it up which would make the gravel idea even worse. Do you have a wooded area or landscaped bedding area that would work? I taught my dogs to go in the back of the yard, and now we get that about 50% of the time. They are funny about where they go . . . it has to be just right!


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## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

Kathy same here. Bentley isn't too fussy where he plops his poop. Evye takes forever...walks back and forth along the fence, up the sides, down the sides...then FINALLY finds that perfect place. Then turns around and eats it !!! So picky where she makes her deposits and could care less what she puts in her mouth !!! Grrrrr !!!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

One of the most important points of any training is that you feel or show no anxiety. They will always try you to see if they can get a reaction. You aren't being mean by showing no sympathy. They learn very quickly if you remain calm and Don't use baby talk. The less you talk, the more they listen.

Don't try to change what habits they come from the breeder with when they first get there. I like to teach potty on command to start with followed by much praise. Once you have that then it's easy, although time consuming for the first couple of days, to get the behavior you want.

Important issues to start with: potty in designated area, stay in expen quietly, and sleep in a crate not large enough to do anything in but lay down comfortably. These need to be the first accomplishments. Other training follows success with these points. They need play time. Play time is most important too, but when they have played long enough to get tired they should be comfortable to stay in the expen while they sleep. Play time is one of the most important parts of early training.


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

Thanks, Tom. I think the breeder taught her "go potty" and started taking her outside for that much of the time, she seems to know that command already. I have wondered if I should have a different word for poop, though, because I can pretty much count on her squatting every time I take her out, but the poop is harder to predict, and of the 4 accidents we've had in the house, 3 were poops that surprised me when I thought she was empty. On the other hand when I was sure she must be holding one in, it took many trips outside over the course of hours before she would let it drop. We are getting plenty of play time and even a little training for sit and down, to the point that I'm having trouble getting my work done. Better get off this forum, come to think of it, if I want to keep my job....


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## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

Diane, I had to smile a bit as I read this latest post, forgive me, as it brought memories back of a certain little puppy o'mine, weighing all of 4 lbs, making complete havoc of my life, my schedule, & my best laid plans for him. Fortunately, it passes, I promise.

I think Tom is absolutely right: *work on a few major things at a time. *
Important issues to start with: potty in designated area, stay in expen quietly, and sleep in a crate not large enough to do anything in but lay down comfortably. These need to be the first accomplishments. Other training follows success with these points. They need play time. Play time is most important too, but when they have played long enough to get tired they should be comfortable to stay in the expen while they sleep. Play time is one of the most important parts of early training.
__________________
It's too soon to start with the bells. She can't get all this at once.

I personally would never sleep in the same room with a puppy. DH and I are in our 60's (but we're so cute & young ;-) ) and we need our sleep to function. Both my dogs have been crated from night one, downstairs in the kitchen/family room (I can hear them through the floor) , and even Heath, the howler, barely protested. And slept through . The ex-pen is way too much space for her, just too confusing. Sorry, but you need to buy another smaller size crate for her now, and just give it away/sell it when she outgrows it. Or she'll poop in a corner of it.

Also, absolutely don't give her any more water after 6 or 7 pm. Be sure she has peed/pooped before bedtime. And then, guess what, don't get up in the night, let her fuss. Only get up as a last resort to be sure she's ok. If you have pottied her, she should be able to hold it all night. She needs to learn to self-comfort. Be sure to put a sock with your scent or something inside the crate. It is pretty much the same approach to get babies to sleep through the night.

It is also necessary to exhaust her with play or walk before she goes to bed. A well exercised puppy sleeps well and minds well.

Re the peepads: Biscuit's breeder used them, so he got it, but Heath's used newspaper, so he never got it. Don't give up yet, though, could take at least a week.

OK, kiddo hang in there. You've got a little tiger lilly by the tail. You be the boss....may tonite be better!!


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## Newpup (May 6, 2009)

I am starting to get my puppy used to the crate. I have heard before to not give food/water after a certain time, and to tire them out before bed. This may seem like a silly question but won't they be thirsty from playing or exercising before bedtime?

thanks!


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

thanks, Amy! I am going to transition to a crate sooner than later, I was hoping I could stuff a towel at the back of this larger one (and the mat that I put in it has big bumpers that are a bit too big for the space, so it kind of reduces the perimeter/flat space by several inches so that it's just barely enough room to stretch out. It's plenty tall. The thing is I want her to like her crate, and I'm afraid if I just put her in it all night, all of a sudden, when she has NEVER been locked in a crate, she'll get all traumatized and will never take to it. My breeder advised me to introduce it gradually. I gotta say right about now I am really wishing she would have done with with her already, as I know many breeders do start crating the puppies for a week or two before they go home. Apparently her experience has been that it doesn't work for her buyers when the puppies are that young.

As to her sleeping in the same room, I would love for that not to be the case, but our house is so small, it wouldn't matter where I put her, if she's making any sort of fuss, I will hear her and it will keep me up anyway. Things like barking in her sleep, smacking her lips, that will keep me up too, even with ear plugs (I'm that much of a light sleeper), so in the future if she's in the living room, that would help because behind a closed door I would not hear that. I would like her to be more independent, and that would be my reason for having her sleep elsewhere. This is all complicated by the fact that my husband sees clients here three days a week, and I can't have her doing a lot of howling while we are practicing this level of confinement.

I was thinking about leaving her ex pen behind the half wall, out of view of my bed tonight. Then maybe tomorrow putting the crate inside the ex pen with the door open, feed her and treat her in there, take the bed out so that the only comfy area is inside the crate, and maybe she'll go in by herself? 

I never did the gradual, positive introduction to a crate for my yorkie, I just started using it as soon as I brought her home, and she hated it from day one, the crate never worked for her, and I think it was my fault for not making it a positive place for her. That's the reason I'm afraid to introduce it too quickly here. Also Violet's littermate did not take to her crate, her buyer tried to do traditional crate training, it went badly, she was exhausted because the puppy cried every night, and when my breeder told her to use the ex pen setup like she'd recommended, apparently problem solved. 

I don't know if the logic is if I force her to go in a crate and stay in it, no matter how much she protests, she'll eventually give up and give in. Either that or make herself sick with anxiety in it, you know? Not sure I should risk that because I don't want her to feel like she's in jail or being punished.


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## Jammies (Apr 4, 2009)

Diane,
I don't know what type of crate that you have. We have had both the kind that are almost totally enclosed and the puppy can only see you out the doors and the "little vents" on the sides and the open crates where they can watch you and see where you are if you are within eyesight. We much prefer the open crate as Jammies can see us. We bought one with a divider so that we can keep it to the size that she only has enough room to stand up and turn around and lay down in it. As she gets bigger, we move the divider! The first day we had it, we didn't realize it had a front door and a side door. Dh had it all put together, put Jammies in it, and out she came from the side door! She out-smarted us! Also, with the closed in one, she got here teeth caught in the grated part of the front door. I am glad I was here to rescur her!

I'm no expert here, just giving you my experience.


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## RikiDaisyDixie (Apr 15, 2008)

*Crate training at night...*

Both of my dogs slept in their crates on a table next to my bed. They went to sleep when they could see me without the pitiful crying. When they did cry in the middle of the night, I took them outside to potty, and then back in the crate near me for the rest of the night. I hope that this works for you. Some tiny puppies cannot hold it all night.

Riki, as an adult, still goes outside once a night, I hear him go downstairs and out the doggy door. Daisy holds it but if I don't take her outside right away she has peed near the front door.


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## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

Hi Diane, Oh, I didn't mean to imply you shouldn't transition her gradually from ex-pen to crate. Yes, you are right, if you put her in at night cold turkey, it could be traumatic, she would hate it and never go in again. I like your idea of letting her play in it at first, putting toys in, putting treats in, so she views it positively. I always still give my boys a small treat in their crates when they go to bed, every single night.


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

Newpup said:


> I am starting to get my puppy used to the crate. I have heard before to not give food/water after a certain time, and to tire them out before bed. This may seem like a silly question but won't they be thirsty from playing or exercising before bedtime?
> 
> thanks!


Welcome to the forum NewPup! Dexter (6 months) gets his last walk, hopefully which will cause the RLH (RunLikeHell) session prior to 7:30pm; then he drinks lots of water, which he gets rid of by 10:00pm.

Dexter will usually want to play fetch in the house for a good while to wear him out after the run (wears me out too!) and then all of a sudden he crashes............We have to wake him up a lot around 10:00 - 10:30pm for one last time outside....Now, if Dexter was younger and he had his last water by 7pm, he would need to potty within 45 min to 1- 1/2hrs, so.......twice outside between 7pm -10pm. And, we also did our play sesson earlier.

I remember Dexter sleeping a lot around 8pm when he was younger and I wondered........will this puppy sleep all night too? He did.


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