# where to start



## GlennBaxterFamily

Hi,
Guess hello is the best place to start. I will try to keep this short but get my questions out there.

I have been searching for a smaller size breed for the last year. I am looking at smaller breeds because my arthritis is getting worse and I just am not able to keep up with the large breed dogs. My cousin, on the advice of her doctor is also looking for a companion dog due to a chronic disability. She has narcotizing granulomas in her lungs which means she needs a dog that is hypoallergenic. I have always had large breed dogs (over 100 lbs) so the small breed is new and confusing to me!

The reason I am here is to ask those who know the breed best, actual owners and breeders their thoughts.

We are a large, blended family with myself, my husband, my cousin and 7 children ranging from 19 to 12. With the exception of the two oldest children, who are in college, all of the kids are home schooled and I am a full-time online college student. Michael (husband) is a CDL truck driver who does LTL.

During the week we are home unless there is a doctor appointment, which is not all that often. On the weekends we like to go camping, hiking (not myself or cousin. We keep the campfire going) and visiting state parks.

We want a breed that can go with us everywhere, that they can legally. We are not in favor of the entire family going on camping trips while leaving the dogs at home. The two older kids take turns staying home as we have 5 ferrets,4 bearded dragons, 1 cat and 2 betta fish so someone needs to take care of them.

The only dog I have owned as an adult was a Rottie named Bo. He was a pet store puppy (please do not beat me up over that trust me I payed dearly for that choice.) He went everywhere with me. When I was a Petsmart trainer he even went to work with me. Six months after I moved in with my husband he bit my husband's son in the face. The child needed stitches and I had to make the heartbreaking choice, after many consultations, to help Bo, who was 2 1/2, to the bridge on 2/07/09. I have not owned a dog since. Here is a montage that I made of Bo if you would like to see him http://www.onetruemedia.com/shared?...in_id=1011&utm_source=otm&utm_medium=text_url

I have been searching and looking at breeder websites and I am completely baffled. I know that testing is important and I have a checklist of tests to ask about. I have tried looking up dogs on the different registry's and it is just confusing. I guess I just don't know what I am looking for.

One website for example specifically mentioned quality dog food and the number one allergen being corn yet is feeding her dogs/puppies Purina Pro  Maybe I am just a snob because my ferrets and cat are RAW fed but I do not think that Purina Pro is a "quality food."

Sorry this turned into a book. I am just trying to figure out what, exactly, I am looking for in a breeder and to make sure our family is right for this breed. Of course a breeder may not let me have one of their puppies because of Bo so it might not even be an option.


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## krandall

Hi, and welcome to the forum!

You are not the first or last person to make the "pet store puppy" mistake, and it certainly sounds like you learned your lesson in the hardest way possible. I don't think most breeders would hold your decision against you. You are obviously a responsible pet owner and parent.

I chose this breed for a similar reason to you... I have ridden, trained and shown horses for 35 years. But I have RA, and it got to the point that I just couldn't ride or even care for my horses at home any more. (I still have my younger one, but he is leased out to a boy who shows him, and lives at a friend's show barn rather than at home) The loss of an animal to train with left a profound hole in my life. I am allergic to most dogs, so that limited the breed possibilities, and like you, I wanted a dog small enough that it wouldn't put further stress on my joints.

I couldn't be happier with my choice of this breed, my breeder, and this particular dog. But I was a bit obsessive about finding the right one, from beginning to end. I wanted a dog who would go on long walks with me, be part of all family activities, get along with other dogs well at extended family get-togethers and have the drive to do performance sports. Also, because this was my first dog, it needed to be of a easy to get along with, "biddable" breed. There are terriers that are supposedly low allergy dogs, but they are higher energy and a little "sharper" temperamentally than I felt comfortable with in my first dog.

Once I had narrowed my search down to this breed (actually, I had narrowed it down to a Hav or a Coton, but it was even harder to find a Coton puppy that coincided with my preferred timing, and they are even more expensive... plus I like all the colors Havs come in!) I started contacting breeders. I didn't care if I had to travel. The right puppy was the absolutely most important factor, and I figured that over the life of a dog, the added travel cost was a drop in the bucket! Some breeders never got back to me, others did, but wouldn't have puppies in the time frame I was interested in, MANY I crossed off the list for other reasons. I also worked closely with a friend who is a trainer, who checked out my "short list" breeders to make sure I wasn't missing anything. None of the good people had ANY problem with this second phone call from her. (I asked them ahead of time) In fact, they seemed impressed that I was being so careful and thoughtful about my decision.

In the end, I found my breeder right here in the forum! Many people who are looking for a puppy run the breeder's name by us here on the forum. Often, someone knows the breeder and their dogs and can give you some feed-back. If not, we can still look at their website and suggest possible red flags, and extra questions that you will want answered. It sounds like you already know about the health testing that is absolutely necessary from a good breeder. I would also not buy a puppy without soaped pictures of the parents and the pup to see that they have straight legs. One of the tricky things with coated dogs is that lovely hair can hide a lot of sins!

In the end, though, I STRONGLY suggest visiting the breeder, meeting the pup's parents and SEEING how the pups are being raised. Because Kodi was such a long way from me, (I'm in MA and the Kings are in NC) I could only visit when I picked him up. But I went down there having PROMISED my trainer friend (who came with me) that if we didn't like what we saw, or if the puppy or parents weren't what we were looking for in terms of temperament, I would walk away. It would have been VERY hard, but I would have done it. Luckily, I didn't have to! The King's dogs are uniformly lovely, sweet and well mannered, and you couldn't ask for a better puppy raising environment. Not only that, but the Kings have been a wonderful resource to me the entire time I've had Kodi, and I feel like we have become real friends. That's the kind of relationship you want with your breeder. (and there are many other good breeders represented on this forum too, I'm just telling you about my experience with MY breeder!)

As far as the food thing is concerned, I wouldn't get too worried about what the breeder is feeding as long as it is within reason. There are LOTS of opinions about what is "necessary" for the perfect dog food. The truth is that different dogs react differently to different foods. Over and over on this forum, you see that one person feeds nothing but XXX (excellent) brand dog food, and that same food is a real problem for someone else's dog. If a breeder has found that a particular food agrees with her dogs, and the puppies are growing well, with good coats and lots of energy, I wouldn't worry about it. You can change them to whatever you want once you get them home! I may be wrong, but I don't THINK that many (if any) breeders start puppies off on raw food.

Oh, and Kodi goes camping with us all the time! well, trailer camping... even before I got RA, I didn't like sleeping on the ground!:biggrin1: You will have to consider your pup's coat if you want him to do a lot of outdoor stuff with you. By far, those with the silkier, less profuse coats are easier to maintain, especially if you keep their coat long. Even in a puppy cut, unless you keep them VERY short, you'll be doing a lot of grooming if you get one with a heavy "fluffy" type coat. There are no guarantees when you get a puppy, but look at the adult dogs related to your prospective puppy, and ask the breeder about this. If a lot of the adult non-showing dogs are in long coat, it's likely that they have pretty easy to care for coats! I didn't even know there were different coat types, and I got very lucky. Kodi has a beautiful, silky coat that is quite easy to maintain now that he is an adult (almost ALL Havs go through the dreaded "blowing coat" when they lose their puppy coat, creating mats for a period of time!) Kodi is mostly white, so he does get dirty when he runs through mud in the woods, but even with his long coat he cleans up pretty quickly!

Here are some pix of Kodi on family trips!


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## Thumper

I can answer a few of these questions, I have a large blended family of 7 kids between the ages of 22 and 12, and I am home or with Gucci most of the time, expect appointments (I have a chronic issue, too) They are hypoallergenic, but to keep them from aggravating any allergies, you have to bathe them weekly. If Gucci goes more than 7 days without a bath, I start to feel the allergies act up. just like a mop, they do pick up some pollen and other allergens in their fur.

We've travelled with her on all of our trips except for one, which was a cruise ship and they wouldn't take her, but I try to schedule trips to take her with us. It is much easier handling a 9 lb dog on a trip .

Havanese are the best 'companion' dog there is, they are true loyal companions and she did help me get better physically. 

As far as feeding, it is variable...I home cook for the last 3 years and feed some canned foods mixed with kibble if we travel. I've never bought Purina, so i don't know about that one.

You are doing all of the right things researching and sound a bit like my situation going into this 

Kara


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## GlennBaxterFamily

Thank you both for the replies.

I have been dealing with arthritis pain since I was 16-years-old. I was tested for RA and do not have it but x-rays did not show "damage" in my knee's until I was 30. I always thought I had "fat" knees but now recognize it for what it is .. swelling. Now at 37 it really is difficult to motivate myself on some days to get up and just move. Living in the Pacific Northwest does not help the situation and my doctor has urged me to move to a dry climate.

I know that very few people feed raw and I was a nervous wreak the first month that I switched my ferrets to raw but now it is second nature for me. I would not do a prey model like I do with my ferrets on a puppy but rather go with a dehydrated raw option such as The Honest Kitchen. There are also plenty of kibbles out there that I really like. I refuse to buy a food that has corn gluten meal in the food. I also know what a hot topic food can be. Bo had IBS and allergies and the only food that I could feed him was California Natural Chicken/Lamb and Rice. I even had to make my own treats for him because everything else gave him bloody, mucus filled poo! It took a year, very long year, to figure out the allergies. I got very good at reading and understanding pet food labels.

I personally really like the puppy cut on the adults. I know it will still require bushing everyday. I also like the Dyson vacuum that comes with the pet attachment but have not seen anyone here comment on it so not sure if it is a good choice for this breed.

The other breeds that I have been researching are Pugs and Boston Terriers, which I have since ruled out. Now it is down to a poodle or this breed.

*ETA*
When we go camping we are in tents (inflatable mattresses for the adults) and we cook over a campfire. I also should have added that I am not looking to add a puppy to our home until mid July at the very earliest! My kids are 19 b, 17 g, 14 g (twins) 14 g, 12 b and 12 b. The 14-year-old's are five months apart and the two youngest are 8 months apart. It really is like I have triplets and twins!!! I should add what a joy it is to have three 14-year-old girls :frusty: ... I feel sorry for the boys most days!


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## GlennBaxterFamily

Here is a website. First red flag .. uses the word "rare chocolate." However if you look all of the breeding dogs are tested. Here is one of the certificates on one of the males but all of the dogs have been tested for the same exact thing. Not all of her breeding dogs have been shown or won titles.

http://www.nevenahavanese.com/Valentino_CHIC_certificate_2011.JPG

So does this make this breeder bad? Am I missing something because to my very untrained eye this looks like a responsible breeder? Why would a responsible breeder use a word that most responsible breeders would never use?


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## Kathie

Welcome to the forum! The one thing I can add from a breed perspective having had both poodles and Havanese - poodles are a little more active and barky. My first Havanese is very calm and hardly ever barks. We just got a Havanese puppy a couple of weeks ago so I'm not quite sure how he will be but he has adapted to our family seamlessly. You would never know he was new to our home from the minute he walked in! I, too, have RA so I prefer smaller dogs. The biggest problem for me with McGee (our new pup) is having to squat down to clean puddles and poop! It kills my knees! I think once I survive the puppyhood we will be on our way! He is already doing better, BTW.

Our first Havanese was on Science Diet, I think. Once I learned to check the ingredients and saw that corn was listed first I immediately switched to a higher protein food. The big poops slowed down at once! She is a happy and healthy Hav especially with her new little brother to play with!

I agree with everything Karen and Kara said, too. If you have any questions about breeders there is usually someone on the forum who can give some insight. Good luck on your search.


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## Kathie

I looked at the website and they "seemed" reputable. The only red flag I could see was that maybe there were an awful lot of puppies - I counted at least 16. I'm not that knowledgeable about breeder, though. Any others with more knowledge please chime in!
The health-testing sounded good though and the puppies are really pretty.


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## GlennBaxterFamily

I really "liked" the young adult chocolate parti female. I agree there do seem to be a lot of puppies. I thought I had read (I have looked at a LOT of breeder websites) that she will not ship so I would have to fly to Vegas to pick up the puppy, which is not a problem. The added benefit is it gives me the opportunity to see where the puppies are raised and in what condition they are in before getting the puppy.

*ETA*
I found several more red flags. I know what to look for in large breeds but not small breeds. There are a total of 3 litters. Two of the mother's were a year old (huge no no with large breeds) and bred on prelim testing (another huge no no in large breeds) and the other one was 8 years old!

I hope more knowledge people can give their opinion but I have a feeling this is a not so good breeder who really knows how to "work it."


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## Kathie

Maybe we'll hear from some more forum members today. I also liked the one you just mentioned! I was going to suggest a little older puppy that is housebroken since you have trouble getting around, too. I can manage with our pup but it isn't easy! We had a "bonding" issue with our first Hav who was eight months old when we got her but that might just be her personality since she is still a little bit shy. I wanted to be sure that our next dog was a puppy that would instantly bond with us and he certainly has! Our breeder is excellent and Abby's was questionable and I can definitely see the difference! You are one step ahead of the game since you know what to look for!


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## CacheHavs

Hello and welcome to the forum. As Karen said I do not feel that you would have what happen to your Rottie be held against you, in fact I myself as a breeder would see that you made a very hard, yet responsible decision.

There was a thread that was started not long ago that may help you in what you want in a good responsible and reputable breeder
http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=14077

I hope it will help you with some of your questions.

As far as a breeder who does not show all of their dogs, I would ask the questions of why. for me I have some who just do not enjoy the show ring, and therefore I do not believe in making them do something that they do not enjoy doing. I would look for the breeder that breeds for quality or quantity. when breeders are breeding and have several puppies on the ground, I would really look closely and would ask why so many puppies. However just two litters of Havanese can produce up to 9 puppies in each litter, though not as common, but I had a girl that had seven puppies and another mother that had four, so I had 13 puppies at once. I had bred two litters because I had a new mother (the one with 7 pups) and an experienced mom, it ended up that my experienced mom had to help raise 2-3 of the pups for the novice mother for a couple of weeks until she got the hang of things.

So I guess what I am saying is you still need to do your homework and ask the questions instead of just assuming. ultimately you have to be the one that feels comfortable with the breeder you choose. After all they should become your life long friend and mentor for any questions you have. If a breeder is not willing to be there for you long after the sale, then you need to move onto the breeder that will.

Good luck with your search and we all look forward to your new bundle of joy, if you choose to go with the Havanese breed.:biggrin1:


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## Kathie

Heather, is a year old too young for a female to be bred? What is the best age span?


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## GlennBaxterFamily

That is what I am not sure of. In the other thread it says "RED FLAG: A bitch that is bred before two (end of story)." So does that mean do not accept a puppy from this breeder no matter how comfortable I am with the breeder?

There are two litters of puppies that were bred before two and on prelim results. Another red flag would be the other mother is over 8 but from what I gathered this could be acceptable under certain circumstances. I have a email out to the breeder.

After what I went through with Bo I am absolutely paranoid about BYB, puppy mills, or irresponsible breeder. It has taken me three years to work up the courage to get another dog. I do not want to ever feel like that much of a failure ever again nor do I want to experience having to put my dog down because I made a mistake and did not research hard enough.

I understand there are no promises and that all dogs have the potential to have health problems but not like a irresponsible breeder pup will.


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## CacheHavs

A female should not be bred before the age of 2. And defiantly not before all of their health testing is complete. I don't even like the boys to be bred before two, but I have bred them (boys) at 18 months after all their test and prelims were complete.


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## Pattie

I want to express my opinion here as well. Heather and I are on the same page. In my humble opinion, there is NO reason to breed Havanese (or any other breed) first, without testing your breeding stock and having them PASS the tests; second, without showing the dogs and third, not until they have attained the age of 2 years. Period. I don't mean to sound strident, but the measure of a good, responsible breeder, does all of these things. That is what my own mentors have taught me and that is what I do. Not only must the dogs be shown, be healthy and be of the appropriate age for breeding, but the pups must be tested against he breed standard and personality evaluated.


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## GlennBaxterFamily

Delete that breeder!

@ Pattie I did not realize it until I clicked on your link but I have your puppy app on my desktop right now. Small world 

*ETA*
In case you were wondering I am pretty sure I found you through a google search. I have looked at so many breeder pages that I cannot remember.


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## GlennBaxterFamily

When you guys say "show" does that mean only conformation or can that be in obedience, rally, agility, etc?


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## Pattie

For me personally "show" means all of the above.


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## Pattie

I just noticed that you mentioned my website and puppy app. If I can assist you in any way I am happy to do so. Feel free to PM me.


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## krandall

GlennBaxterFamily said:


> I personally really like the puppy cut on the adults. I know it will still require bushing everyday. I also like the Dyson vacuum that comes with the pet attachment but have not seen anyone here comment on it so not sure if it is a good choice for this breed.


A lot of people do puppy cuts, and that's fine. I just wanted you to be aware in the differences in coat types incase you were thinking of a long coat! And vacuum will do with a Hav. You will find very little (if any) hair around, even where they sleep. They shed the way humans do... hair or two at a time. Most of the hair they shed comes out in the brush or comb as you groom them. (Unless you step on their tail by accident... Now HOW would I know that?:redface



GlennBaxterFamily said:


> The other breeds that I have been researching are Pugs and Boston Terriers, which I have since ruled out. Now it is down to a poodle or this breed.


I have more trouble with Pugs, allergy wise, than almost any other breed. They also shed LIKE CRAZY, and the consistency of their hair burrows into any kind of cloth of carpeting, making it VERY difficult to get out. I've had very little experience with Bostons, but in general, I, personally would avoid any of the brachycephalic breeds. They just have too many respiratory problems.



GlennBaxterFamily said:


> When we go camping we are in tents (inflatable mattresses for the adults) and we cook over a campfire. I also should have added that I am not looking to add a puppy to our home until mid July at the very earliest! My kids are 19 b, 17 g, 14 g (twins) 14 g, 12 b and 12 b. The 14-year-old's are five months apart and the two youngest are 8 months apart. It really is like I have triplets and twins!!! I should add what a joy it is to have three 14-year-old girls :frusty: ... I feel sorry for the boys most days!


I'm sure a Hav would adjust to tent camping with no problem. Kodi considers "home" where ever we put his little sleeping crate.<g> I wanted an early summer puppy too, so that I could really devote all my time to puppy training before the hectic school year started again.

I can't imagine what your house must be like with all those raging hormones! You are strong woman!!!


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## krandall

GlennBaxterFamily said:


> Here is a website. First red flag .. uses the word "rare chocolate." However if you look all of the breeding dogs are tested. Here is one of the certificates on one of the males but all of the dogs have been tested for the same exact thing. Not all of her breeding dogs have been shown or won titles.
> 
> http://www.nevenahavanese.com/Valentino_CHIC_certificate_2011.JPG
> 
> So does this make this breeder bad? Am I missing something because to my very untrained eye this looks like a responsible breeder? Why would a responsible breeder use a word that most responsible breeders would never use?


I think she used the word "rare" in regards to DARK cocolates... and that's true. It's very hard to get chocolates that STAY dark as they mature. So if she's really producing dogs that stay dark, that would be rare. That said, I'd NEVER choose a puppy based on the color. That's the last consideration after everything else for me.

One thing that was mildly concerning was that it looks like she hasn't "finished" any of her dogs, though she has some photos of them showing. I prefer to work with a breeder who has an objective "outside eye" looking at and evaluating her stock to make sure that the dogs bred conform to standard. The other thing that was more concerning was that she talks about doing "preliminary x-rays" on dogs bred before 2 years. IMO, breeders should wait until the dogs are old enough for all testing to be completed before breeding.

The other thing that isn't on the website is her contract. It's not a problem that it's not there, but you'd definitely want to take a look at that before agreeing to purchase a puppy.


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## krandall

GlennBaxterFamily said:


> I really "liked" the young adult chocolate parti female. I agree there do seem to be a lot of puppies. I thought I had read (I have looked at a LOT of breeder websites) that she will not ship so I would have to fly to Vegas to pick up the puppy, which is not a problem. The added benefit is it gives me the opportunity to see where the puppies are raised and in what condition they are in before getting the puppy.
> 
> *ETA*
> I found several more red flags. I know what to look for in large breeds but not small breeds. There are a total of 3 litters. Two of the mother's were a year old (huge no no with large breeds) and bred on prelim testing (another huge no no in large breeds) and the other one was 8 years old!
> 
> I hope more knowledge people can give their opinion but I have a feeling this is a not so good breeder who really knows how to "work it."


It's hard to imagine how anyone could give three litters at the same time the kind of enriched environment and socialization that I would want a puppy to have.

And yes, breeding dogs that young, and without completed testing is a no-no in the Havanese world too. I don't know if there is a specific cut-off at the older end... I think it depends on how many litters a bitch has had, how easily she handles it, and her current state of health. But it does sound like a late-in-life pregnancy at best.

There are so many great breeders out there that unless you could find a couple of people you trusted to give you rave reviews about this breeder, I think I'd keep looking.


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## krandall

CacheHavs said:


> As far as a breeder who does not show all of their dogs, I would ask the questions of why. for me I have some who just do not enjoy the show ring, and therefore I do not believe in making them do something that they do not enjoy doing.


Hi Heather,

I would certainly agree with that... showing a dog who doesn't want to be in the ring is no fun for anyone. But in this case, NONE of the dogs on the website has been finished. Don't you find that a bit unusual?

I know it's not recommended to breed so young, but I wasn't sure what the recommendations are with older bitches. I guess one of the three litters is out of an 8 year old bitch. Sounded on the old side to me, but I wasn't sure.


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## krandall

GlennBaxterFamily said:


> Delete that breeder!
> 
> @ Pattie I did not realize it until I clicked on your link but I have your puppy app on my desktop right now. Small world
> 
> *ETA*
> In case you were wondering I am pretty sure I found you through a google search. I have looked at so many breeder pages that I cannot remember.


See, I told you you could find good breeders on this forum!


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## Suzi

I have been told different things about litters but nothing about age. One breeder told me no more than two litters another told me no more than 20 puppy's. Zoeys breeder just knew when to retire her Bitch. She was able to know when she was in heat until the last one. She didn't want a winter litter but Zoeys mom had what she called a silent heat for the first time . I think she also had some problems with milk for a couple days. So Billie had her spayed. Her last litter she had to rush to the vets for a C section she had Abbie fixed while she was their.
Another breeder told me no more than 20 puppy's in a dogs life I have no idea about age. In people years isn't 8 years about 80


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## CacheHavs

krandall said:


> Hi Heather,
> 
> I would certainly agree with that... showing a dog who doesn't want to be in the ring is no fun for anyone. But in this case, NONE of the dogs on the website has been finished. Don't you find that a bit unusual?
> 
> I know it's not recommended to breed so young, but I wasn't sure what the recommendations are with older bitches. I guess one of the three litters is out of an 8 year old bitch. Sounded on the old side to me, but I wasn't sure.


Sorry, I never went and viewed the web site as I have been busy grooming dogs and getting ready for a dog show next week along with working on the calendar  Yes I do find it unusual for a breeder to not have any titled dogs on their web site, at least if it were a reputable one 

As far as age, I do know that some breeders will breed an older dog, as long as they are healthy and how well they handled their last litter etc., however for me I only breed a bitch maybe 3 times and very rarely 4 times in their life. Some of mine may of only had one litter. For my I would never breed a bitch past 6 years of age, but my girls are usually retired from breeding by the time they are 5


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## kimnaz

GlennBaxterFamily said:


> Hi,
> Guess hello is the best place to start. I will try to keep this short but get my questions out there.
> 
> I have been searching for a smaller size breed for the last year. I am looking at smaller breeds because my arthritis is getting worse and I just am not able to keep up with the large breed dogs. My cousin, on the advice of her doctor is also looking for a companion dog due to a chronic disability. She has narcotizing granulomas in her lungs which means she needs a dog that is hypoallergenic. I have always had large breed dogs (over 100 lbs) so the small breed is new and confusing to me!
> 
> The reason I am here is to ask those who know the breed best, actual owners and breeders their thoughts.
> 
> We are a large, blended family with myself, my husband, my cousin and 7 children ranging from 19 to 12. With the exception of the two oldest children, who are in college, all of the kids are home schooled and I am a full-time online college student. Michael (husband) is a CDL truck driver who does LTL.
> 
> During the week we are home unless there is a doctor appointment, which is not all that often. On the weekends we like to go camping, hiking (not myself or cousin. We keep the campfire going) and visiting state parks.
> 
> We want a breed that can go with us everywhere, that they can legally. We are not in favor of the entire family going on camping trips while leaving the dogs at home. The two older kids take turns staying home as we have 5 ferrets,4 bearded dragons, 1 cat and 2 betta fish so someone needs to take care of them.
> 
> The only dog I have owned as an adult was a Rottie named Bo. He was a pet store puppy (please do not beat me up over that trust me I payed dearly for that choice.) He went everywhere with me. When I was a Petsmart trainer he even went to work with me. Six months after I moved in with my husband he bit my husband's son in the face. The child needed stitches and I had to make the heartbreaking choice, after many consultations, to help Bo, who was 2 1/2, to the bridge on 2/07/09. I have not owned a dog since. Here is a montage that I made of Bo if you would like to see him http://www.onetruemedia.com/shared?...in_id=1011&utm_source=otm&utm_medium=text_url
> 
> I have been searching and looking at breeder websites and I am completely baffled. I know that testing is important and I have a checklist of tests to ask about. I have tried looking up dogs on the different registry's and it is just confusing. I guess I just don't know what I am looking for.
> 
> One website for example specifically mentioned quality dog food and the number one allergen being corn yet is feeding her dogs/puppies Purina Pro  Maybe I am just a snob because my ferrets and cat are RAW fed but I do not think that Purina Pro is a "quality food."
> 
> Sorry this turned into a book. I am just trying to figure out what, exactly, I am looking for in a breeder and to make sure our family is right for this breed. Of course a breeder may not let me have one of their puppies because of Bo so it might not even be an option.


Your Bo was precious. Brought tears to my eyes. Rotti lover too!


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## GlennBaxterFamily

Thank you all for the responses. 

It is really hard to put into words how devastating it was to lose Bo. I think for me it was the fact that I was so shocked that he bit anyone, let alone a child. And that he was healthy when he went to the bridge.

I firmly believe that coming from a puppy mill had something to do with that. I did all the right things. Took him to all of the puppy training classes at Petsmart, more for socialization than anything. I had a private trainer that came to my house. He went to the groomer and vet on a regular bases. 

He was very well behaved and I got a lot of compliments on him and his behavior when out and about. At the time my daughter was 11 and she could walk him without being pulled all over the place and he listened to her. Every single consult I had said the same thing. Bo would always have to be muzzled out in public and crated at home unless it was only myself in the room with him. Bo would have hated that! I felt that it was no life for him at all. 

The forums that I was on when this all happened were quick to judge and called me unfit and that no responsible breeder would every let one of their precious babies near me. So not only was I grieving his loss but also had a lot of quilt on my own then had it dumped on me even more by the forum! Many of them felt that I should have rehomed him since I did not "want" him. I did not rehome because he was a liability and I did not trust anyone to watch him that closely. I felt it was better for him to be at the bridge than living like that.


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## Pattie

It takes a big heart to do the right thing by your family and by the dog.


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## GlennBaxterFamily

Thanks Pattie. I think I still have some quilt, probably always will.

I sent you a PM.


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## GlennBaxterFamily

I just thought of another question and although I think I know the answer I thought I should double check. I graduate with my AAHSM (Human Services Management) in June and start my BA program (Crisis Counseling) at Liberty University on June 27. 

I am in the final stages of being approved as a foster home visitor. It is a volunteer position and entails meeting the foster parents and child, inspecting the home and building a relationship with the child. I am doing this because it is in my career field of choice once I graduate. If the puppy was therapy certified (which I want to do) do you think this breed would be a good fit for that type of work? Interacting with foster children.


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## dodrop82

Back in 1990, I got my first Chinese Shar Pei (from a back yard breeder...someone who had a Shar Pei, and bred it to someone else's Shar Pei.) My boy Dreyfuss, was wonderful with everyone in my family...everyone else was an enemy to him. With a 6 yr. old and a 4 yr. old going in and out of the house all the time, it was hard to be aware of his ware-abouts at all times. At about 6 months of age, he got out of the house with one of the kids, and bit a nieghbor girl. Her family was of course REAL upset, but backed off when they knew Dreyfuss had his rabies vaccine...We ended up returning Dreyfuss to his breeder, as there was no way to contain Dreyfuss with 2 children running in and out of the house all the time! A year or so later, I got a call from a lady. She was the lady Dreyfuss had been rehomed too....she asked me why we had given Dreyfuss back to the breeder...I told her about Dreyfuss biting the neighbor girl...she had not been told about this...Dreyfuss had accidently gotten out of her fenced-in yard and had bitten a neighbor child of hers. I never heard what the outcome of this story was...of course I didn't want to know...but I don't imagine it was good for the boy I loved....I have many sad storys...I feel your pain....
Find a good, responsible breeder...pay alittle more and increase your chancesof a long happy life with your pup!


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## GlennBaxterFamily

dodrop82 said:


> A year or so later, I got a call from a lady. She was the lady Dreyfuss had been rehomed too....she asked me why we had given Dreyfuss back to the breeder...I told her about Dreyfuss biting the neighbor girl...she had not been told about this...Dreyfuss had accidently gotten out of her fenced-in yard and had bitten a neighbor child of hers. I never heard what the outcome of this story was...of course I didn't want to know...but I don't imagine it was good for the boy I loved....I have many sad storys...I feel your pain....
> Find a good, responsible breeder...pay alittle more and increase your chancesof a long happy life with your pup!


The situation that you describe is exactly why I did not re-home him and of course returning him to the "breeder" was not an option!

Sorry to hear about your Dreyfuss!


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## doggymom011

I am the owner of the website you are talking about in this thread. I have just found this old post. I am very upset by all the red flags raised about me as a breeder based on wrong assumptions. 
All my females go into heat at the same time, only one of my girls goes in heat at different time of the year. My females are very fertile, they have 5-11 puppies in the litter, so yes; I do have quite a few puppies available for adoption sometimes. I had two litters of 8 weeks old puppies and two 7 month old puppies from previous litter available for adoption. I did not have 3 litters of puppies of same age like posted here. I decided to place two young adult females since I kept quite a few puppies in last couple of years, so there were two young adults also listed on my Puppies page two months ago when this treat started.
We only have two weekends of dog shows in Las Vegas (total of 4 days per year) with desert all around us and nearest dog show 4+ hour drive. I live alone with dogs, I find it very difficult to go on the road and leave my other dogs and puppies behind with pet sitter in order to put championship titles on my dogs. I don't have any human kids, my dogs are my kids, I virtually live for them, and they are my everything. I love this breed; I will never breed any other breed. It is the best breed that ever walked the Earth. We all know that just about any decent example of the breed could finish sooner or later with a handler. I never had heart to send dog on the road with a handler. Dog would certainly not be happy about leaving his owner behind. I would worry too much, I heard way too many horror stories about dogs being lost, stolen, injured, bred, infected with brucellosis etc while on the road with a handler. Besides, most of my dogs do not really enjoy show ring. They don't have that "look at me" show dog personality that judges like to see in the ring. However, my new boy Valentino was really enjoying show ring, he is a natural show dog so I decided to take him on the road and finish him myself. I put 14 points on him quickly all by myself travelling to California and Arizona dog shows leaving my other dogs with pet sitter which was not easy thing to do. I don't trust anyone with my dogs. He is a very nice boy; he even had 3 Best Toy Puppy in Show placements. However, we were chasing a major for 6 months. There were no majors in the area or even worst - we would drive 5-6 hours for a major to find out major was broken when we were already there. He has 14 out of 15 points he needs to be champion but he doesn't have major win required for championship title because there were hardly any majors on a driving distance from Las Vegas when I was showing him. I was tired of chasing a major and gave up on his championship title. I know what good example of the breed should look like. I posted soaped photos of my dogs on the website, I even put photos of their bites on the website which is something that very few breeders would do. They all have all health testing required by the breed club and more. I was thinking about moving closer to dog shows but it is not going to happen on this bad economy unfortunately. I breed for health and temperament on the first place, all my puppies (both show and pet quality) go to loving pet homes on spay/neuter contract. I don't want to be responsible for more then what I bring to the world so I don't place puppies in show homes. They all go to loving pet homes on spay/neuter contract although I have breeders contacted me from all over the world for my dark chocolate puppies. I was doing health testing on my foundation girls and breeding them only to fully health tested champion males 6-7 years ago when very few breeders did all the health testing, most reputable breeders did CERF only. My puppies are 4th generation of healthy dogs bred by me. I produced only one puppy with possible genetic problem in all these years of breeding. I don't understand why would the fact that I put "rare dark chocolate" on my website raise the red flag? I am sorry but true dark chocolate Havanese puppies that will keep the color over the lifetime are very rare considering that we have strong silvering (fading) gene in our breed. I have been working for almost 7 years now on elimination of fading/silvering gene from my lines selectively breeding only dogs who keep the color well. Unlike other breeders who breed for the show ring, I would not breed a dog if he is loosing his color. I would not breed black parti dog that turned silver. I would also not breed chocolate dog that turned silver/cream. That is my personal choice. My puppies are 4th generation of dogs with strong coloring that will not fade away with time. My black parti puppies will stay jet black over the lifetime. I am still not there 100% when it comes to chocolate coloring but I would say about 80% of all my chocolate puppies will keep the color very well. I can tell by the time puppy is 8 weeks old if it will keep the color. There is nothing wrong about breeding for strong color that will not fade away. Many Havanese puppy owners are complaining about the fact that their Havanese dog changed color over time. I want my puppy buyers to get a dog with coloring they like. I don't think I should be publically criticized for that. 
Krandall, I never sold a puppy without the contract. I do mail contract to families who filled out my Puppy Questionnaire that qualified to have one of my puppies. I don't think that many breeders have Contract on their websites.
GlennBaxterFamily simply decided for some reason that my older girl who is 7 (she is not 8 years old like disclosed in this post) must be mother of young puppies available for adoption although total of five females were listed on Our Girls page at the time. I find it really amazing that another breeder also assumed she must be mother of the puppies. My 7 year old girl was mother of 2 year old Vivienne available for adoption; she was 5 years old when Vivienne was born. She did have one more litter later at 6 years because I wanted to keep puppy out of her and my wonderful young boy Valentino to continue her line. She never produced one single health problem, she cleared CERF at 7 years of age with no breeder option diagnoses, she has the most wonderful temperament and great structure, amazing topline, high tail set, and she is still my best bitch. She is the best mom. I am glad I bred her at 6 years of age, I got precious boy out of that breeding, and he is going to continue her healthy line. I didn't think that people would automatically assume I am still breeding her just because she was on my website. I removed her from my website after I read this post.
I always do preliminary hips and elbows on my dogs weather I breed them before they are 2 years old or not. I decide to pay two times for x-rays to find out if there is a potential problem in advance. Breeders should be encouraged not criticized for doing preliminary hips on their dogs! This is the link on OFA website about preliminary hips: http://www.offa.org/hd_prelims.html 
I do final x-rays again at 2 years of age when dog could be certified. I find very little difference between preliminary and final x-rays. Some of my girls go into heat very early so they are bred on their third heat before 2nd birthday. Toy breeds mature faster than large breeds. There is nothing wrong about breeding a bitch on 3rd heat. There is also nothing wrong about breeding a bitch on her 2nd heat according to Dr Hutchinson and my repro vet. I know many reputable breeders who breed on 2nd heat. What I find amazing is that GlennBuxterFamily simply assumed that two girls under 2 years of age with preliminary hips done were mothers of current litters although there were 5 females listed on my Girls page. There were two other (4 and 5 year old) girls on my Girls page but it was assumed for some reason that my younger girls must be mothers of current puppies. I usually do not post on forums, I felt I had to respond to this. I understand that GlenBaxterFamily had bad experience with previous breeder but that doesn't give them the right to make wrong assumptions and disclose false information on public forum.


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## krandall

Hi Doggy Mom, and welcome to the forum! I hope you will share your name with us... Most of us do. My name is Karen, as you'll see in my signature.

We encourage new members to shop for their Hav puppy carefully... I'm sure you will agree that there are too many puppies bred by people who are NOT reputable breeders and do not have the best interest of our wonderful breed at heart. As a result, we've developed a number of questions that we urge potential puppy buyers to carefully consider when choosing a breeder. It may be that they can find a very nice dog bred by a breeder who doesn't follow ALL of the "best practices" we recommend people to look for, but we still want them to be aware of what questions they should be asking of their potential breeders.

Since you named me specifically, I want to be very clear about what I wrote. (you can go back and check for yourself). First, in terms of your use of the word "rare" for your chocolates, I explained to the original poster exactly what you have posted here... That while chocolates in general aren't all that rare, Havs that remain DARK chocolate are rare. I specifically said that if that was what you were referring to, your use of the term was justified.

Second, in regards to my comment on the lack of a contract on your web site, if you will re-read what I wrote, you will see that I specifically said that this wasn't necessarily a problem, but that the OP should make sure that they asked to see the contract before purchasing a puppy. People all too often get so caught up in the "cute puppy" that they don't really pay attention to the details of the contract. They should. I would assume that you would want your puppy buyers to read your contract carefully before purchasing their puppy too.

I won't comment on your specific breeding practices... I'm not a breeder, and I bow to those with much more experience than I. But I do know there are other respected breeders on this forum whose ideas do vary pretty significantly from yours.

I tell potential puppy buyers that there is only so much you can learn from a web site. Some look very slick, and are no more than fronts for puppy mill brokers. Others are very Spartan, simply because the breeder is better at breeding dogs than producing web sites! The most important thing is to talk to the breeder if you have concerns about what you see on the website. If you feel comfortable with the answers, VISIT them and see how and where they keep both their adult dogs and their puppies. only then should you consider buying a puppy from them. 

I wish you the best, and hope that you decide to stay and become part of our community. It's nice to have our breeders around, and a little healthy debate and differences of opinion, respectfully expressed, never hurt any of us!


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## marlowe'sgirl

Hi Doggy Mom, 
Your website is very informative and I appreciate that you make all the health info/testing very apparent. Some confusion seems to stem from the fact that it is not clear who your puppies' parents are. You don't need to remove your 7 yo girl from your "Our Girls" page, but I'm sure prospective Hav parents are interested in who all those adorable pups' parents are. Just a Puppy's born "5/5/11 mom's name x dad's name" would suffice. From a I just have a non-show dog standpoint, I'm interested to know the lineage that lead to both B&W and choc & white parti's in the same litter. The color genetics are just so fascinating with these guys.


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## Kathie

Welcome, Doggymom! As you have seen, this forum is for people expressing their opinions and they are not always the same! It would be nice if you stuck around and shared your wisdom from breeding Havanese for such a long time. All of us mere dog owners could use and appreciate some more expert input. Thanks for posting!


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## GlennBaxterFamily

I stand by what I wrote. At the time the information was gathered from your website. 

You have since changed your website and the puppies that had embedded links on their pictures are now gone. When I clicked on the link (on the puppy's picture) that said "mother" and it sent me to the page of one of your girls I assumed it was the mother. I did not just grab information out of the air, it was information YOU provided on your website!

I posted the website and asked my question to gather information from breeders who had no monetary gain from the answer they provided.


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## doggymom011

No, I didn't change anything on my website, I only removed my older girl after I read this thread, that is the only change I made in last couple of months. There was no link for parents on my Puppies page two months ago. 
The only link that you might have clicked on when you were on my Puppies page was link for one of the adults posted on several photos of the puppies showing how certain puppy is going to look like when fully grown. There was a link for my older female because her great grand niece available for adoption was spitting image of her. I want people to have an idea how puppy is going to look like as adult. You can currently click on link for Picasso posted on photo of his daughter Belize on my Puppies page to see how she will look as adult. He looked just like her when he was a puppy. I post links for adult dogs on some photos of the puppies if puppy looks like one of my older dogs. Like I said, my puppies are 4th generation of dogs bred by me, so I know exactly how most of them will look like as adults, I produced that look in the past. I know that little girl India that was on my Puppies page at the time will look like my older girl we are talking about in this thread, she is her great grand niece. It was written on her photo 'Gold brindle parti girl India will look like her great grand auntie Isabella" with link for my older girl's page so people could see how puppy will look like when fully grown. How in the whole world did you assume my older girl was mother of that puppy when is said it was her great grand aunt ?????
I have all your emails saved. You filled out my questionnaire same day when you started this tread 4/30/11. You have been emailing with me after that so you obviously decided to disregard all the red flags raised in this thread. You even recommended me to your cousin! If there was a link for parents on my Puppies page like you say, why did you ask about parents of 2 year old girl Vivienne and older puppies available at the time? I would normaly not do this but I have to copy and paste your email I received on May 2nd (two days after you started this thread) to proove you are wrong.

dateMon, May 2, 2011 at 2:13 PM
subjectRE: Havanese puppy
mailed-byhotmail.com

Hi,
If Vivienne is still available when I am ready, which would not be until mid July, then I would be interested in her. Who are her parents? I am interested in the older puppies as well and would consider any of them. Can you tell me who their parents are? I am more interested in the temperament of the puppy than I am about color or gender. I have filled out the puppy questioner and sent it in to you. My cousin is also interested in a puppy. She will be sending in a puppy application as well.
Amy


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## GlennBaxterFamily

doggymom011 said:


> No, I didn't change anything on my website, I only removed my older girl after I read this thread, that is the only change I made in last couple of months. There was no link for parents on my Puppies page two months ago.


Yes you have changed the pictures and the links on the "puppy page." The pictures are different! My mistake you didn't breed two bitch's, under two, on prelims it was "only" one bitch.

You are absolutely right I did start a thread here the same day that I contacted you. I continued to post to this thread while exchanging two or three emails with you. As I stated before I wanted my questions answered by a knowledgeable breeder who had no monetary gain from the answers that were provided. I never asked you about the younger puppies. I only asked you about the 2-year-old and the 9-month-old.

Once again read through the posts that I made in this thread. There was nothing defamatory about what I wrote. I simply asked questions and the answers that were given were the opinions of those who answered. EVERY resource I have read stated "avoid breeders who use the term "rare" so I asked, and was answered that sometimes that is the correct term to use. I have read on resources that breeding a bitch over a certain age (7-8) can be bad for several reasons. Again I asked here and was provided with several opinions from knowledgeable breeders. I know that breeding a large breed puppy under the age of 2, on prelim test results, is a huge no-no and a breeder who does should be avoided at all costs. Again I asked here and was given opinions from several knowledgeable breeders.

What was posted in this thread were opinions of several different people with a variety of backgrounds.

In this thread I never said why I decided not to obtain a puppy from you. I never said that you were a "bad" breeder. What I said exactly was "cross that breeder off the list."

I decided not to purchase a puppy from you for several reasons.

1) You have a lot of puppies at one time. At the time you had 16 puppy pictures up as "for sale", two 2-year-olds and two 9-month-olds.

2) You bred a bitch at a questionable age on prelim test results.

3) I filled out a puppy questioner and was approved for one without any reference checks from you at all. I filled out that application and was approved the same day (might have been the next day.) I never spoke with you on the phone and the emails were very short with a few more questions asked by me. Your response was equally short, answered the questions, and again stated the price of the younger puppies as well as the price of the other dogs for sale.

My cousin told you in the email that she sent you that you should come to this site and post your own defense, which you did.

According to the notice I received about this thread you copy and pasted my email address into your reply on this thread. I am thankful that the filter on this website caught and did not post my email address as that is private information that has never been disclosed by me on this forum. It does concern me that you have my other private information and I am concerned about what you will do with that information.

I will not be back to this thread. I have said what I needed to say.


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## doggymom011

Of course I have changed photos of the puppies on my Puppies page! Most puppies available two months ago were adopted! But concept was not changed....Parents are still not listed and there are still links on photos of the Puppies that will look like one of my adults. There is no big change you are talking about. Right now there is only link for Picasso's page on photo of his daughter that will look like him. 

Most breeders will not take seriously person shopping for puppy 3 months in advance. You were interested in 2 year old hoping she will still be available in 3 months when you receive your student aid. How many breeders on this list would take you seriously? I was polite... I told you I will consider placing young adult with you if she is still available when you are ready for new addition. What else was I supposed to do? Talk on the phone with you and check your references 3 months in advance for a dog that will most likely not be available in 3 months? Vivienne was adopted one week later. She lives on the beach in Florida. 

I copied and pasted your post in full. It is irrelevant weather you were interested in younger litter or not. My older girl was not 8 years old as you stated, she did not have young puppies like you posted on this forum. You ASSUMED I bred 2 bitches under 2 years of age. You should apologize for disclosing wrongful information on public forum.

P.S. And no, it was not filter on this website... I came back and removed your email address from my post when I realized I copied it together with a message.


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## krandall

Hi Doggymom. I won't get into what went on between you and the other poster. I think you've both said what you needed to say. I must say, however, that most of the breeders I know have waiting lists for their puppies, so they definitely DO talk to people who are looking for a puppy a few months (or more) down the line.


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## Thumper

HI Doggie-mom and :welcome: to the forum,

This type of exchange, a potential puppy buyer/mom/dad, will often come here and inquire about breeders, or their websites..or 'red flags' they may want further insight to, or even ask if others have experience or knowledge of such breeder, and really, it is just people doing their due diligence and homework because there are some deceitful and questionable websites on the internet (I am NOT inferring you are one, but I think that research is to be expected in the online world)

I personally didn't perceive anything as being malicious or slanderous towards you, and I"m not sure why you are upset with the OP.

Although, I don't really think its right to post a personal email on a public forum, that is comparing apples to oranges in my opinion when someone posts a link to public website for others to see. It would upset me to see personal exchanges posted on a public forum without my consent. I am not trying to upset you or put you on the defensive, I can just see why that has upset the OP.

And I am happy to see you here clarifying some questions that she had, I know she is just trying to make an informed, well researched decision..

Kara


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## doggymom011

Karen, I don't think you realize that she was not interested in my future litters. She was interested in beautiful young adult available for adoption Vivienne. I was getting at least one inquiry per day for Vivienne. People were more interested in her then in younger puppies. I simply did not think I should talk on the phone and check references on someone interested in Vivienne but ready to take her home in 3 months when she will probably be in her new home already.


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## kimnaz

I just wanted to add that our little fur babies are not cheap investments. It was very stressful to make such a purchase from a website without doing my homework. This forum taught me the things to look for and questions to ask. We can agree to disagree!!! I'm sure I got on my breeders nerves more than a few times but she was kind enough to answer my many questions and she even set up a web cam for me to see Kaleb a couple times a week( I'm sure it was easier to set up the web cam than to deal with a worrisome woman that had a million concerns). I work night shift so I would sometimes come home from work,crawl in bed with my laptop and watch Kaleb play and interact with his littermates. I would wake up off and on to watch my little guy until she turned it off. That was a calming factor for me since she was just voice on the other end of the phone trying to reassure me that everything was as she stated on her site. I also asked the forum if anyone had heard of Kaleb's breeder and I got wonderful feedback.
I purchased my other fur baby(Black Russian Terrier) from a lady in New York. I didnt do my homework and didnt know anything about testing or hip dysplasia. I purchased her and her sister for my daughter. $5000.00, flew in to pick them up,hotel and food. At 6 months old Sasha was napping and when she woke from her nap she cried and cried but wouldn't get up. After extensive lab work( to rule out valley fever which is common in humans and pets in Az) xrays and a 2nd opinion,she was diagnosed with hip dysplasia. Her breeder and the vet advised me to put her down. I was heartbroken. I have never put a dog down. I could hardly write the check for the vet bill through all my tears. The breeder sent my $2500 back but her last words were "you are only prolonging the enevitable". WRONG!!!! I changed her food to Royal Canine for lg breeds (it has all the extra vitamins and minerals for healthy bone growth) and she is doing fine. She currently shows no signs of pain or discomfort.
I say all this to say that if I had done my homework I could have saved a lot of money and heartache. So I think it's the right thing to do. There are so mant knowledgeable people on this site and they are willing to come to the aid of all of us that love our fur babies and those that are looking for a fur baby to love.
I'm an RN and even 90 yr old's are wiser than they use to be and they know they have a right to ask questions.


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## doggymom011

Kara, I missed your post for some reason. I am not upset because she posted link to my website. My name was mentioned on this forum in the past, that is not a problem. I understand buyer has to do homework, I encourage it wholeheartedly. There is a Buyer Beware page on my website. Getting a dog is a big commitment. I was also purchasing dogs from other breeders in the past, I am still looking…. I am looking for lighter colored possibly gold brindle parti male puppy right now myself. I know what buyer is going through. I am upset because she posted wrongful information about my dogs. I emailed her after I read this thread. She didn't think she did anything wrong although she admitted in private mail she made some mistakes. She suggested I go on the forum and post my defense which is exactly what I did. She is now criticizing me for not talking on the phone with her and checking her references. I gave her my phone number, she could have called me if she wanted to talk on the phone. She said she will contact me when she is ready if Vivienne is still available. She was far away from being preapproved; we were not there yet. She was not ready for a dog. She didn’t read my contract yet. It didn't make any sense for me to continue with preapproval process. She made it clear she was only interested in young adult available for adoption after she learned puppies were priced higher. All she wanted to know was price. She didn't ask about Vivienne's temperament, food, habits, likes, dislikes....Hardest part about breeding dogs is placing adults. We want to breed only the best. It is not easy to let puppy go but it is nothing comparing to letting an adult go. Part of my soul will go away with that dog. I am looking for best possible home for my adult dog, I am extremely picky, and I have to have best possible feeling about the family that will adopt one of my adults. I am happy I have found that perfect home for Vivienne, I could not be happier with her new family. 

I don't really see much difference between posting copy of email to the forum and describing the content in your own words. Email is certainly more accurate. 

English is not my first language like you probably noticed by now. I apologize for any grammar mistakes.


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