# GROWLING



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Dr. Ian Dunbar said that dogs aren't like us- they don't have lawyers.Subsequently with meagre litigation abilities and penmanship growling is one of the basic ways that dogs can express themselve. and communicate with others.So if growling is a basicform of communication, why do so many owners reprimand their dogs for doing it? Dogs growl for all kinds of reasons. And thank goodness for that,because growling is an important part of their language. Sometimes growling is their way of telling others that their social space is being invaded , that they may be fearful and are being protective. Sometimes dogs growl during play. Andsometimes because the dog may simply be tired and cranky and doesn't want to be bothered. Even if we as owners are not able to identify the reason keep in mind there is always a reason . So what happens when we reprimand a dog for growling? We are essentially training them not to growl.Consequently, we are training them not to give imperative warnings. By doing this we are potentially creating a walking time bomb.- a dog that no longer gives warning signs whose frustration will build until it can not take anymore, then jump directly to a bite. Often after a person has been bitten by a dog, the owner will say things like, " There was no warning- my dog just bit- he has never done that before. But behaviour like this always comes from somewhere, in fact a stressful situation for a dog can easily be compounded by the anxiety of not being able to communicate by means of its instinctive language. A well socialized dog will, hopefully, give all kinds of warning signs long before he ever bites. Typical signs include growling ,barking, baring teeth, changing body posture, and maybe even a little snap. Some dogs with advanced socialization training can apply the method of "bite inhibition" - taught so that in case a situation arises where a bite occurs, the dog is able to vary the pressure of its mouth before leaving a puncture hole. This enables the dog to express the varying degrees of its intent. Dogs that are undersocialized- dogs that either do not have "growl language" of have had it taken away from them -do not have these skills. Personally, I like it when dogs growl. It gives me an opportunity to stop and consider the reason for that dog to be growling. Only then am I able to make a decision and take the appropriate action to diffuse a potentially dangerous situation. I may choose separate myself or others from that dog, or I can simply make that dog a little more comfortable by changing or removing it from its environment. Maybe the dog is lacking socialization in a particular area, and we need to work on it some more. We would be wise to watch our dogs and listen carefully to the many ways in which they express themselves. There is plenty they can teach us- especially about how we can learn to live our lives together in harmony.


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## melissaj4 (Feb 10, 2008)

I dont mind if my dogs growl at strangers, strange dogs, or animals. They
growl at each other often too. What I mind is if a dog growls at me or my children. I draw the line there. If the dog has an issue it better come up with a different way to tell me besides growling. I see growling as a threat that leads to biting. I dont have a child that will raise his or her hand to me and 
I wont allow that from my pets either. Sorry, I'm not sure what you were asking but thats my take on it.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I'm not sure what you're asking either, but I don't have a problem with dogs growling at each other or in warning, but if they growl at me, they better tolerate me growling back. I'm the boss.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Shelby never growls at anyone of her humans, but she growls at Kodi. It's dog speak. Kodi will growl if we are playing tug, you know when they shake the towel and growl. But I don't consider that a threat. Am I wrong in thinking that?


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

melissaj4 said:


> I dont mind if my dogs growl at strangers, strange dogs, or animals. They
> growl at each other often too. What I mind is if a dog growls at me or my children. I draw the line there. If the dog has an issue it better come up with a different way to tell me besides growling. I see growling as a threat that leads to biting. I dont have a child that will raise his or her hand to me and
> I wont allow that from my pets either. Sorry, I'm not sure what you were asking but thats my take on it.


Melissa I am not asking anything this is just an article why dogs growl. and what we can learn from them . It is NOT saying to ignore the reason for the growling . That is something you have to determine. But to inhibit or punish them for their growling is very dangerous. Correct the reason for the growling -- not the growling itself. Thanks Dave


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

irnfit said:


> Shelby never growls at anyone of her humans, but she growls at Kodi. It's dog speak. Kodi will growl if we are playing tug, you know when they shake the towel and growl. But I don't consider that a threat. Am I wrong in thinking that?


No, Michele. That's how they communicate.

Funny thing is that one of my dogs only growls when she plays, and she almost _always_ growls when she plays. She just did it as I was typing. LOL


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Michele, I don't think so at all. Kubrick growls when we're playing tug and I growl at him (while laughing). His tail wags the whole time, it's not at all menacing. He has never ever growled at me under any other circumstances. If he ever did, I'm pretty sure he knows how much trouble he would be in.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Kimberly, I took so long to post that I answered the same question you did. Kubrick loves to growl while playing too. I think it's funny. He thinks he's so ferocious.


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## JanB (Oct 26, 2007)

Dave, I have to say I would never tolerate my dog growling at me nor would I change her environment so she won't need to growl. That is accomodating unacceptable behavior. The one exception is I would teach a child to not bother my dog while she was eating.

Although I do agree a dog that is growling at it's humans needs some help.

Sorry, but to me this is the same kind of psychobabble from child psychologists that says we need to "reason" with toddlers and now we have a nation of brats.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Dave,
I think you need to move in with Ian Dunbar-----gee whiz---almost all your posts are about the guy.Then you can praise him all he wants,and you can both be satisfied!

I think everyone should make up their own mind----Growling at people is not tolerated at my house,nor is it going to be.eace:


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Julie, :laugh:


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

I agree, that there are differing ways in which we all view discipline, and I am with Jan. We all need to see what works for our dogs and not 'go with the flow' because someone said so. This whole "ignore' the bad behaviour and then 'hope' that it will click in what is acceptable is a little far fetched.

I don't accept any growling at me or ANYONE, other than his happy playful growls. My children are expected to behave and not act like spoiled brats, so I expect the same from Oreo. I am sick and tired of people trying to state that treats and ignoring are the ONLY option to raising a happy and well behaved dog. Its great to look up to someone, but if you love the guy so much, I agree with what Julie says.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I think you have to be a lot more sensitive to growling in one category. It is kind of like the stories they tell with Eskimo's and snow. There are a lot of types of growls. I think with dogs it is all about listening. Some growls and noises I am okay with others I am not. When Isabelle growled when I bumped her and the bone, that is when the alpha roll came in and we haven't had a miscommunication with growling since 

I also think warnings are fine, I give them too!

Amanda


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

I don't disagree that learning the different types of communication our dogs give us is very important, but what I do disagree with is the idea that there is only ONE way to offer rules and boundaries for our dogs. Here, the "this is mine", or the "touch it or else" attitude is never acceptable. My children MUST respect Oreo and never mistreat him in anyway, but in return I expect Oreo to show that same courtesy by not offering any kind of communication with that message. Though it only happened once, when he was very young, it never happened again - I won't accept that here. Maybe some are fine with, but they know their own dogs better than I ever would. In my case, I know what works for Oreo and what doesn't, and ignoring/treating brings out the worst in him - jumping up on guests and stealing food is not my idea of manners. So perhaps that is why I am a tad sensitive the psychobabble being offered. What seems to make me go "hmmmmm" is since all the "old school" methods have dropped away, why the rise in all the bite incidents and bad behaviour??? :frusty: Please don't tell me its because we don't 'treat' enough!! :frusty:


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Helen,
I completely agree with you. I also believe a lot of what Cesar says about energy. I have two completely different dogs. Dora would be fine for anyone. She is extremely smart but extremely balanced. Isabelle is extremely energetic and has no problem climbing the ladder. I will tell you how hilarious it was for my dog sitter to call me last week, saying "I have a bag of treats but Belle won't come back inside" She is yelling Belle Belle shaking the treat bag. Belle not listening to treat, just imagine if she only had a clickerl. I think different dogs need different things just like children (well that I don't know first hand!) I really try not to say there is only one way, cause I learned in life and in competition there isn't. Dora learned a lot from the clicker in some areas but Belle learned a lot from a training collar and even a prong when I thought it was cruel but then I learned when it helps. I think the best thing you can do is read up on many different methods and just get to know your dog and find the best path for everyone.

Amanda


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

My dogs growl in play and vocalize just fine..but they DO NOT growl at my kids/family members. 

They do sound differently though...I think you can tell your own dogs sounds and what is the meaning behind different ones.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

:thumb: I agree Amanda and Helen--:thumb:


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Exactly! Amanda I totally agree. We all know our dogs are as unique as we are and we can't expect any cookie cutter methods to work for all dogs. With Oreo, he needs clear boundaries and I have to be firm, if not he is always on edge and never relaxes and wants to be on the offensive every chance he gets - not to mention the need to steal my daughter's food from her hands! I have had to be very firm with him and when he gets that 'twinkle' in his eye, I tell him to back off! He must respect my 3.5 yr old daughter and even though I never leave them unattended, I expect them both to have a healthy respect and understanding of eachother.

Different methods work for different dogs, and the bottom line is we have to find what works and then be consistent.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Here is a small article I borrowed from Cesar and this is really true for my household- the less walks we go for, the more barks there are. By Thursday, Belle is ready for the weekend! 


Why Dogs Bark
Posted Wed, Nov 28, 2007, 9:34 am PST

Ah, barking.

Would you believe it was part of what attracted early humans to dogs in the first place? It's true. Dogs in camps and settlements kept the group safe by alerting humans to potential predators -- whether human or animal. And in the present day, many of us still appreciate the fact that dogs let us know when someone is at our door or approaching our property.

But problems develop when dogs in our unnatural, modern situations have pent-up energy, are anxious, become overexcited, or are unsure of their role in the pack. So sometimes their barking can get out of control.

When a stranger approaches the Dog Psychology Center, our thirty-some dogs on the property will begin to sound the alarm. This is absolutely natural. I keep this barking from escalating by instantly asserting my leadership and telling them with my energy, "It's OK. I'm in charge here. I know what's going on; you don't have to worry about it." 

It may sound too simple to be true, but establishing your pack leadership is the key to managing any instinctual behavior, including barking.

Watch for my next blog entry, where I'll discuss specific techniques for dealing with nuisance barking.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Okay I found another article that was interesting! It doesn't line up well when I paste but here you go! It more about the language of dogs.
http://pets.yahoo.com/dogs/behavior-and-training/320/the-international-language-of-dogs/



> A growl is a clear warning. The deeper the growl, the more serious the warning, and the more confident the dog is to back it up with aggression. A dog that stops growling, but maintains his stance, is through with negotiations and is ready to act.


I guess when I really think about it, my dogs hardly truly growl and I think I heard Dora once when the possum was outside and I kept yelling at her to come in the house. Isabelle really did it the once to me and we had our communication.

Amanda


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I think Cesar has great information and have used his techniques in my household,and also on other dogs who have came at us during our walks. Thank goodness too---imagine big nasty loose dogs after a 10 pound hav..he saved our behinds!

Any man who can turn the life/behavior around in pit bulls and nasty little chihauhuas and almost everything in between deserves respect in my book!


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I can't think of her name right now... Victoria? ____? from Great Britain. She has the show "It's the Dog or Me", but it is on pretty early in the morning on the Animal Planet. I love a lot of her methods. I haven't watched her for long - obviously, since I don't even know her name - but she does say that not every method works for every dog and will give alternatives. Tonight, I had to watch Rufus (guess why this one caught my eye!), the obnoxious Doxie, get turned around. It was an amazing reformation and all positive training.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I definately would NOT tolerate any growling towards humans. Gucci has growled at other dogs and always tries to take the alpha role in a group of dogs, sometimes she wins, sometimes not..but I wouldn't put up with aggressive behavior. I don't mind the grumbling or whimpering, there are plenty of ways for her to express herself to me without growling. I do think she respects me and knows her place in the pack!

Who the heck is Ian Dunbar?

Kara


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I think Ian Dunbar is a dog trainer/hero to Davetgabby

Kimberly,I know who you mean----It is Victoria Stillwell with that show. She does alot of techniques similiar to Cesar.I enjoy watching her show as well.


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

My dog has growled at my son almost since day 1. However, when they are playing, they are the best of friends. I haven't been able to curb the growling, but I am trying to have Alec give Gryff his space.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Ivy,
I do remember your posts about that issue. You really need to be the leader-always and if your son is old enough,he needs to be a leader as well. You do have to make sure your son isn't being mean to Gryff though. They will find mutual respect,but it takes you to achieve it.:thumb:You can do it!:thumb:


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## DAJsMom (Oct 27, 2006)

Ian Dunbar is a well-respected trainer. The trainer we used for Dusty's obedience classes was part of the Ian Dunbar school of thought. She had trained with him. We were very happy with the positive training methods and Dusty responded well to them. 

As to the growling, After reading the article Dave posted, it does make some sense. I think it's something to think about. I don't think Ian Dunbar subscribes to the Cesar-dominance theory of things, so maybe that's why there's the vastly different perspective on this. 

Dusty growls (in a "you are really getting annoying" tone) if one of the kids is cornering her, and my reaction is to put a stop to the situation from both sides. If she is growling, the kids are pushing too hard, and they all need to back off. I usually give her a correction and make the kids leave her alone. Most of the time, everyone gets along happily anyway.


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## classeylassie (Jan 11, 2008)

I'm sorry sticking up for my hubby here.Too many people make the mistake in thinking that their dogs can reason and think like people..a dog is a dog is a dog.I think it is doing your dog a favor to explore and read and evaluate many books on dogs,their behavior etc. Most can tell if it is phsycobabble,or good plausible information on learning your dogs language why they may behave the way they do.No one is saying that some growling in some instances is not wrong.But to correct it u have to understand first why the dog did it for what reason,then apply the proper form of correction.Many dogs are given up for behavioral problems,because of the mistakes we humans make thinking they think like we do,because they are smart,adorable etc.and errors in our training methods.


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## classeylassie (Jan 11, 2008)

Thanks DaJmom,..........Ian is world renowned in his knowledge of dogs...
such positive training brings happy results.He doesn't agree with Cesar. Cesar's ways are very dangerous I would think for many to try on their own.They also show us what they want us to see on the show.I don't think you can teach an animal or human by domination ,at least not in a good healthy productive way,with consistant positive results.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

classeylassie said:


> Too many people make the mistake in thinking that their dogs can reason and think like people..a dog is a dog is a dog.I think it is doing your dog a favor to explore and read and evaluate many books on dogs,their behavior etc. Most can tell if it is phsycobabble,or good plausible information on learning your dogs language why they may behave the way they do.No one is saying that some growling in some instances is not wrong.But to correct it u have to understand first why the dog did it for what reason,then apply the proper form of correction.Many dogs are given up for behavioral problems,because of the mistakes we humans make thinking they think like we do,because they are smart,adorable etc.and errors in our training methods.


I agree with you. If people treated their dogs,like dogs there would be less problems. Part of that,is being the leader. I think of it like kids. If you don't act like a parent,don't be surprised by what your kids do.All kids and dogs need boundaries and limitations on what they can do.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

classeylassie said:


> Thanks DaJmom,..........Ian is world renowned in his knowledge of dogs...
> such positive training brings happy results.He doesn't agree with Cesar. Cesar's ways are very dangerous I would think for many to try on their own.They also show us what they want us to see on the show.I don't think you can teach an animal or human by domination ,at least not in a good healthy productive way,with consistant positive results.


Cesar is not a dog trainer----he does not go into that.He practices DOG PHYSCOLOGY.There is a difference.


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## classeylassie (Jan 11, 2008)

Thats right Julie, When u think of it in some ways as u said the way you raise children really is not much different in the way you should teach your dog.The boundaries limitation,who is the leader,but all this is done with love and respect not with domination and breaking the spirit.


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## classeylassie (Jan 11, 2008)

Julie if I am correct which I think I am Cesar has no formal education,self taught.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

That's true----and I have yet to see anyone break the spirit of a dog. Here or on Cesar's show! I think the only broken spirits are perhaps those abandoned and abused. Thank goodness I don't see those/ only rarely a stray in this area. Cesar however has rescued alot of those dogs that had their spirits broken. Thank goodness he is a man with enough integrity to put his talent into helping dogs like that.


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## classeylassie (Jan 11, 2008)

Ian Dunbar is an animal behaviroist,Director of the Center for Applied Animal Behavior,founder of the association of Pet Dog Trainers and a veterinarian.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

classeylassie said:


> Julie if I am correct which I think I am Cesar has no formal education,self taught.


I don't know that myself,but it doesn't matter one bit to me. I see alot of well educated stupid people in the world as it is. Being self-taught or taught by working with his grandfather is a real plus. All hands on experience. I'd rather hire a self taught person who can do the job,then a well educated person who has a paper saying he can,but has never did it.

Since we are open to exploring all kinds of ideas/techniques you say-----
why is it you and your husband are not open to others as well....instead of a Ian Dunbar broken record? Why does he pm people who disagree with him and give them a little "spanking"? It's silly. To be open to ideas,and preach it,you must be as well.


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## classeylassie (Jan 11, 2008)

Yes I'm sure he has done some wonderful good things,I just can't agree with the domination aspect of his training...Dog training isn't about control it's about relationships.If you have a good relationship with your dog it will do everything to please you.Kind, patient and dog friendly training techniques produce a loving and well mannered companion


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

classeylassie said:


> Ian Dunbar is an animal behaviroist,Director of the Center for Applied Animal Behavior,founder of the association of Pet Dog Trainers and a veterinarian.


Maybe he could go back to school and learn dog physcology? Or better yet,take a course from Cesar! You're never too old or have too much training they say.....


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

I have to agree with Julie on this one. I don't believe that any ONE person out there has all the correct answers to everything, which is why I probably have about 10 books on puppy psychology/training and I pick and choose amongst them based on what I think I can teach and on what I personally agree with. Always saying that ONE person's teaching is correct and no one else is is not only narrow-minded, but can be very hurtful to others that do not necessarily agree. Pushing for a specific mindset like it's the end all and be all can actually make people push back even harder. If you want people to listen to you, being open minded and understanding is a lot better than being high handed and self righteous.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

classeylassie said:


> Yes I'm sure he has done some wonderful good things,I just can't agree with the domination aspect of his training...Dog training isn't about control it's about relationships.If you have a good relationship with your dog it will do everything to please you.Kind, patient and dog friendly training techniques produce a loving and well mannered companion


That's what I see on Cesar's show. If you are not seeing him act in a loving way,then that's too bad---alot of America does.eace:

With breeds such as pit bulls---a very dominate breed---don't you think it would be a good idea to be the leader and dominate the dog before it dominates you? I think so......
I've never seen a person enter a pen or house,yard etc. with a ficious pit bull blowing kisses,offering a treat......I don't know anyone with a brain cell that would enter like that.


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## classeylassie (Jan 11, 2008)

First we do not just read Ian Dunbar.We read many books even Cesars,to try and educate ourselves.My hubby and I belong to the International Positive Dog Training Association ..It is for dog related professionals,dog owners and enthusiats who are willing to take a stand for the use of only humane techniques in dog training and behaviour modification.The purpose of the I P D T A is to dissect every tool and technique to agree on proper application and to establish the acepted standards for what is humane what is unacceptable and what is abusive. Norma Jeannie Laurette is very well known respected certified trainer etc`.She invites speakers from around the world on positive dog training.Believe it or not she once taught like Cesar the dominance theory .She started to do alot of dedicated years of research and now feels differently.Dog owners and trainers alike often use the dominace theory to explain a variety of canie behaviours.Trainers often use this theory to justify both the use of aversive tools and physical techniques designed to over power the dog,with the objective of intimidating the dog into subservience inorder to stop unwanted dominant behaviours.This type of training works by virtue of the concept that the dog becomes afraid to behave in a particular way for fear of punishment.Unfortuately this has cost many dogs their lives.Every behaviour people blame on dominance is normal in cainie terms and can be explained by simple motivation and reinforcement.This is quite simple,dogs want good things.Some dogs are more assertive then others.Dogs that are more assertive will try harder to obtain valued resources,be it attention food etc. Dogs that are less assertive are quicker to religuish.An assertive dog is more of a challenge to train,but it has nothing to do with dominance..Dominace means In control over a group and assertive means to insist.An assertive dog is challenging.The bottom line is this:although dogs need guidance to be good companions,dominating them has proven to be counter productive at the very least and extremely abusive at it's worst.


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## classeylassie (Jan 11, 2008)

Oh I have to add..my stomach is now GROWLING FOR FOOD..AND I THINK MOLLY'S TOO...LOL


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

I didn't mean to presume that you haven't read any other training books, I was just pointing out that that touting off Ian Dunbar like he's the end all and be all of dog training can be counter productive to what you're trying to accomplish. That's all.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

> Julie if I am correct which I think I am Cesar has no formal education,self taught.


I'm not sure how a formal education has anything to really do with anything. There are many idiots with a formal education. I think Cesar has enough years of experience to back up a formal education. Plus, I am pretty sure he continues his own education through reading and relearning just as I do at my workplace.

I have never heard or seen Cesar hurt a dog or be cruel to a dog. You always here the same lines "what he does is dangerous". If he is dealing with an aggresive dog he says to consult a professional rather than apply the technique yourself.

There is no ONE answer or technique that fits all. Obviously a combination of methods from both Ian and Cesar probably would provide the best overall training/nuturing possible. Everyone needs to guage that for themselves. But simply spouting off credentials and quotes and then disparraging someone else's work really comes across as ... well sour apples...


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

> nfortuately this has cost many dogs their lives.


You can provide examples of this? Not sure how this type of training would cost a dog it's life...


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## classeylassie (Jan 11, 2008)

I'm not spouting off nor am I diaparraging others works.I am giving my opinion as to what postive training is.Isn't this a place for discussion.Not been rude to one another.I hope I haven't been and if I have I will say I'm sorry.No one I must say will convince me that positive training is not better.There are many different ways of training,just to teach a dog to sit...The idea is that it is all done with loving care,not holding the animal down until it collaspes and I just pray all choose carefully so dogs don't end up like the ones Cesar gets or worse yet ethaunized.Thats all I'm saying that it is in a positive manner.I can't imagine anyone wanting less then that for the animal they so dearly love.Sometimes it is easier to sit and watch a tv programme then to read some books.And by the way I have read Cesar's as well. I gather everyone on here anyway love and adore their dogs and are obviously treated well and trained with love and kindness.


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## classeylassie (Jan 11, 2008)

Hi Daniel...I believe educating ones self is helpful. How many poor dogs end up abused put down etc.because some get them haven't a clue on what to do to train them ,then the dog pees on the floor one to many times and they are yelled at kicked and booted out.I have heard many times the only happy dog owners are the ones who have trained their dogs.Very true I suspect.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

classeylassie said:


> just to teach a dog to sit...The idea is that it is all done with loving care,not holding the animal down until it collaspes


I hope you are not suggesting Cesar holds an animal down till it collapses? That would be an outrageous comment to make.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

You are right, this is a place for discussion. I certainly don't mean to sound like I am coming down on you. But I do have to say "disparaging remarks" can be done in various ways. When you put out a sentence that Cesar has no formal education, then post Dr. Dunbar's, well that is does come across as disparaging. Then also post that his techniques are cruel. It's obviously coming across a certain way. I think what bothers most people here is the way it's said. Just as we respect what you believe in regards to training, you should respect others. Absolutely, there is nothing wrong with sharing thoughts and ideas. 

Personally I enjoyed the first post about the growling and did find it worth reading.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

classeylassie said:


> First we do not just read Ian Dunbar.We read many books even Cesars,to try and educate ourselves.My hubby and I belong to the International Positive Dog Training Association ..It is for dog related professionals,dog owners and enthusiats who are willing to take a stand for the use of only humane techniques in dog training and behaviour modification.The purpose of the I P D T A is to dissect every tool and technique to agree on proper application and to establish the acepted standards for what is humane what is unacceptable and what is abusive. Norma Jeannie Laurette is very well known respected certified trainer etc`.She invites speakers from around the world on positive dog training.Believe it or not she once taught like Cesar the dominance theory .She started to do alot of dedicated years of research and now feels differently.Dog owners and trainers alike often use the dominace theory to explain a variety of canie behaviours.Trainers often use this theory to justify both the use of aversive tools and physical techniques designed to over power the dog,with the objective of intimidating the dog into subservience inorder to stop unwanted dominant behaviours.This type of training works by virtue of the concept that the dog becomes afraid to behave in a particular way for fear of punishment.Unfortuately this has cost many dogs their lives.Every behaviour people blame on dominance is normal in cainie terms and can be explained by simple motivation and reinforcement.This is quite simple,dogs want good things.Some dogs are more assertive then others.Dogs that are more assertive will try harder to obtain valued resources,be it attention food etc. Dogs that are less assertive are quicker to religuish.An assertive dog is more of a challenge to train,but it has nothing to do with dominance..Dominace means In control over a group and assertive means to insist.An assertive dog is challenging.The bottom line is this:although dogs need guidance to be good companions,dominating them has proven to be counter productive at the very least and extremely abusive at it's worst.


From this post,I see the bottom line really is there are a group of people who meet and sit down and discuss dog training.Everyone's ideas and decisions are made. However every dog is different....so it seems like a waste of time. The group isn't going to use any of Cesar's techniques,because the one woman has her own agenda. Being faithful members--you are going to do as they say. That's ok. But to come on a forum and have your husband refuse to see anyone's side of anything other then Ian Dunbar,but chastise those who feel otherwise,by a pm spanking,or not being open minded is just ridiculous. If he was selling Ian Dunbar items,you could at least see what his agenda is-I thought perhaps he got a kickback from using his name and selling a book or something.

His signature says he is a member of the IPDTA but that doesn't mean he knows any more then I do,or Billy,Bob,Sue whoever.......I see for 25.00 or so,I could be a member too.....

I don't care what technique someone uses,they need to use one---however to attack Cesar,and put him down when he isn't here to defend himself is wrong. Notice no one is running Ian Dunbar's techniques down?


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## classeylassie (Jan 11, 2008)

Sorry Julie I am I have seen it..I tape all of his shows and I have seen him do that,until the animal goes limp.And I don't believe for a minute that they show you everything that he does with an individual dog on there,the programe is edited I'm sure.I have read his book, again to educate myself as to what techniques are good and bad.Sadly I feel some of his ways are not right.Other things he does are very good like lots of exercise for a dog to control certain behaviors.And thats why I believe non dominent training is better overall.People on here have attacked me for mentioning Ian Dunbar.I have read many other books besides his,and feel that I have done myself a favor.Believe it or not more and more books are coming out that teach the positive training method.And I am privileged that I have met Norma Jean as she use to train like Cesar so has many years of experience in both methods,and I give her great credit that she took it apon herself to do tons of research and admit that she wasn't right.So the bottom line is there is lots to learn from many authors on this subject,which I feel educate me to make a well informed choice.


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

From the videos I've seen of Cesar, he's never been cruel or inhumane to the dogs. I agree that some of the things he suggests for an aggressive pitbull aren't acceptable for a tiny Hav, but I've also never seen him use the same strength no matter the size of a dog. I haven't read any Ian Dunbar books, but am sure that he too has great suggestions on how to train a dog. Cesar does a miraculous thing with the psychotic dogs he trains and all of them seem to be very content in their position once he's put them in their place. 
Having studied medicine in Germany and now dealing with re-taking all the American Boards and meeting American Doctors, all I can say is: it doesn't matter where you grow up, study, not study, etc. it's whether you have a natural instinct for what you choose to do combined with lots of practice (trial and error). You wouldn't believe how many medically and culturally dumb professors and physicians I've seen with the highest degrees in Europe as well as in the US.

BTW, I find it kind of odd to say 'dogs should be dogs' and use the word humane or inhumane in the same sentence. E.g. when Cesar puts his foot on an aggressive dog's chew bone and just simply waits until that dog calms down and submits by laying down, that's a great method to me, but not necessarily 'humane'. Or would someone do that with their kid's toy? Anyway, maybe I'm being too word-specific and the word 'humane' in the English language is used as 'being nice and not abusive'.


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

classylassie, whoever 'attacked' you for using the methods you choose for your dog shouldn't have done that. I think the point that Julie, Lina, Daniel and others are trying to make is, that it's fine to be convinced by one trainer's principles and share your knowledge with the forum. But don't pretend that this is the only right way to do things for every dog on this planet. NOT saying, that this is what YOU've been doing. Just trying to explain that there's a difference between sharing knowledge for whoever chooses to follow those ideas and criticizing people for following other methods.


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

This has gotten to be quite the hot discussion.

I always thought growling was very bad and unacceptable and never let my dogs growl at anyone. Of course they growl at each other and at other dogs sometimes when we are outside. (I don't like the latter).

I recently took a class with George Cockrell, a well-known and respected trainer in the D.C. area. He has trained dogs for 30 years and and works in heavy-duty training with police departments, military, and has worked with entertainment dogs.

There was a little min.pin-toy fox terrier mix in the class, who was constantly growling.. I kept waiting for George to stop the growling as it was annoying. He laughed at her. He said she was growling for attention and called her a diva. He got her to pay attention and do what he wanted her to, but she still growled a bit and he treated it as no big deal.

He did not think growling was the big no-no that I thought it was. 
So I learned something new about growling.

I have to say that I always enjoy Dave's posts and fine them educative.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I don't think anyone has attacked Ian Dunbar----but I've read the attacks on Cesar.


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## classeylassie (Jan 11, 2008)

Hi Mary I truly don't think it is the only way for everyone .But just feel it is worth checking out.Everyone here has to find what they want from any training experience that works for them and their dog.If u would have asked me two years ago I would have defending Cesar .I thought he was the greatest until I decided I wanted to learn more about training,and must say I am happy I did.Not that Molly was a problem but I just wanted to do things right in everyway I could.We have a friend that works for the humane society and have heard such horrible things about what has been done to dogs that were abused by owners who expected much from them with horrible training methods. I'm sorry if it came across as I was critizing people for following his methods,didn't mean that at all I was just trying to give an opinion in another method that might be of interest to others.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

classeylassie said:


> Sorry Julie I am I have seen it..I tape all of his shows and I have seen him do that,until the animal goes limp.And I don't believe for a minute that they show you everything that he does with an individual dog on there,the programe is edited I'm sure.I have read his book, again to educate myself as to what techniques are good and bad.Sadly I feel some of his ways are not right.Other things he does are very good like lots of exercise for a dog to control certain behaviors.And thats why I believe non dominent training is better overall.People on here have attacked me for mentioning Ian Dunbar.I have read many other books besides his,and feel that I have done myself a favor.Believe it or not more and more books are coming out that teach the positive training method.And I am privileged that I have met Norma Jean as she use to train like Cesar so has many years of experience in both methods,and I give her great credit that she took it apon herself to do tons of research and admit that she wasn't right.So the bottom line is there is lots to learn from many authors on this subject,which I feel educate me to make a well informed choice.


I honestly do not believe you saw Cesar do that. I am not calling you a liar,but I would bet my last buck on it. Maybe that is your interpretation,but I do not believe it for a minute.

I'm not sure who Norma Jean is,but you give her credit where credit is due. I'll give Cesar credit where it is due as well. I see him trying to reach out to dogs that would be put down.Dogs that people failed--from never setting any boundaries,rules and limitations on.. Cesar steps up to the plate. He puts his talent out there and does things-----not just sitting back and telling someone do this,do that.There are alot of people who think they know all the answers,but they never act on them. They all can tell you what to do,but never do it themselves.They sit back and judge instead. Not Cesar.Kudos to him,for getting off his butt and trying to be the most helpful he can....I applaude people like him.


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## classeylassie (Jan 11, 2008)

Hi Julie..Norma Jean has rescued many dogs that were believed unfixable as well.She only does it in a different way then what she use to.We were very impressed that she just doesn't teach but does practice what she preaches.She is like Cesar believes that there aren't too many dogs that can't be saved.I don't think Cesar is horrible in everyway..just some of his methods to me maybe not to you or someone else are unacceptable.I guess because I think what I have learned that the same things can be accomplished in a different way that makes me feel happier for the animal.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I see none of Cesar's techniques as horrible. I think he is a very geniune "champion for the dog".

That is great that you know a lady doing rescue...it's cool she is doing that,no matter what her techniques are/are not.


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## classeylassie (Jan 11, 2008)

And that is good for you Julie and I do believe he is geniune,and loves dogs,just don't like him for myself.Yes she has done wonderful work,and fascinating to hear of how she worked with these dogs that would have been put down.


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## PMcCoy (Feb 25, 2008)

*Growling*

I don't mind if Toby is growling at his sister in play or if he is growling at a toy. He also growls sometimes when he hears something outside. But I will not accept him growling at me to get attention or to get his point across. It's just not going to happen. That's just me.

Toby's Mom


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I think it is also important when looking at the trainers and the type of dogs and what needs to happen. Cesar saving "red zone" dogs is absolutely amazing. I am sure if Cesar came over to my house and I was having issues with my maltese jumping on people, he woudn't do something to the dog to make it go limp. I think his training and behavior probably adapt to the dog.

I have always been fascinated by working dogs- farm, police, etc. I have gone to several police dog seminars and while I would never use those methods to train my dogs (they don't use clicker and a lot of times it is negative). Also it isn't life or death if Dora doesn't grab the dumbell for the general public-just my bruised pride! I have talked to the handlers of those dogs. Before judgining, it is good to hear both sides of the story. What works for one dog, won't work for the other, you have to take in consideration of that dog and what needs to happen.

I find it interesting to think everyone of the group agrees on each thing the same way- like training collars are always bad, etc. That is what I don't like. I think you have to take in consideration the dog. An abused pit who has been living alone and has benefited from using aggression, might have to use a training collar!

Amanda


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## JanB (Oct 26, 2007)

I actually saw the show where Cesar held the dog down until he went limp. What wasn't mentioned in the post citing this show is that this dog was a rescue living in a foster home and had to wear a muzzle because he was so aggressive. The next step would have been euthanizing him.

Cesar saved his life.

Cesar himself has said he is not a dog trainer. He REHABILITATES dogs. Big difference!

As the mother of two very different children I can tell you different methods worked for each child. Same with dogs. You wouldn't train a Hav the same as a Doberman.

I've also lived through the "positive only" theory of child rearing from psychiatrists with lots of letters behind their names: ignore the bad behavior and reward the positive....blah, blah, blah. If you do that you will end up with a brat. Grandma with no degree knew better than that!

If you're training tricks or activities like agility of course you wouldn't severely correct wrong actions. But if my dog aggressively growled at me it would be a different story.

There is a huge difference between training and rehabilitation and the same methods wouldn't be applied to each.

I absolutely agree with Maryam. I'm a nurse and my husband is a physician. One of the worst most inept doctors he works with is Harvard educated.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I don't follow any one trainer exclusively. I think it is important to learn from each of them and take the good, and leave the bad behind. I am not a person who follows any one person and I try to learn from all, because I think everyone has the potential to teach others. 

I would hope that everyone would choose to seek out methods that work for their dog, and if it doesn't, then find another method. Don't change for the sake of change, or because some "expert" told you to, but find the solution that works for your dog and keeps your relationship working well. Respect a dog for who he/she is, and make sure that is reciprocated.


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## classeylassie (Jan 11, 2008)

Jan I wasn't refering to that one at all.I tape all his shows and have seen it more then one time..I believe his intentions are nothing but good,and he loves animals and ones that have been given up on.I have just decided for myself not others that his methods are not what I like.. With children as you mention,they are all different but that type of postive rearing can work if done in a consistant way.It doesn't work if your not.I have seen this with my own grandchildren as my daughter is a proffesional with children.Consistency is the problem if its not there then you have a brat.So both methods work,it all depends what one prefers.I'm proud to say my grandchildren have never been spanked and are wonderful ,kind, loving, well behaved kids.I wish I had known all that my daughter does when I raised mine.Mine turned out great again different method,as with dogs.But I sure would have prefered to have done it the way my daughter did.Yes some well educated people can be inept,I have just found for me with much reading that it is now becoming the Majority of professional dog trainers that are now practicing the positive training methods.


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## classeylassie (Jan 11, 2008)

We don't follow one person either Kimberly.It is just with alot of research that the majority of professional dog ttainers are using the positive training.It is just another personal choice.


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## JanB (Oct 26, 2007)

You must have misunderstood me. I never advocated spanking. I simply said *ignoring* bad behavior leads to brats and I stand by that.

Again, I repeat, training and rehabilitating a dangerous dog (and I've never seen Cesar roll a dog that wasn't dangerous) are 2 different things. Let's just agree to disagree on this one :biggrin1:


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## classeylassie (Jan 11, 2008)

I didn't mean you did Jan and thought you might think that when I mentioned the word spanking.Sorry about that.I was refering more to the consistency.I realize there is a difference in training and rehabilitating...again I repeat that it can still be done in a more positive way.Norma Jean has done this works with dogs that are highly aggressive like Cesar.She is specialized in this.So not just Cesar's methods works.I feel the way she does it is not creating more fear in a dog because it is not been dominated.Also if a message has to be posted on his programme not to try this at home.....that speaks volumes to me.


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## classeylassie (Jan 11, 2008)

On a lighter note..all the best to everyone...have a wonderful safe happy evening...and let us all hug our hav's,and have a wet kiss goodnight.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Lina said:


> I have to agree with Julie on this one. I don't believe that any ONE person out there has all the correct answers to everything, which is why I probably have about 10 books on puppy psychology/training and I pick and choose amongst them based on what I think I can teach and on what I personally agree with.


The same goes with parenting human kids too! One problem with the one-approach fits all is that it doesn't take into account that there are two parties involved in a owner-dog or parent-child relationship, and that each owner/parent has their own personality, weaknesses and strengths--not to mention the dog/child too.

I've also found with the human parenting thing is that people tend to gravitate towards the parenting philosophies that naturally fit their personalities. There are so many out there to choose from, it is easy to find ones that support your "natural" style....


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

JanB said:


> Again, I repeat, training and rehabilitating a dangerous dog (and I've never seen Cesar roll a dog that wasn't dangerous) are 2 different things. Let's just agree to disagree on this one :biggrin1:


I second that! I think Cesar is Awesome,and a true champion for the dog. eace:


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## classeylassie (Jan 11, 2008)

I think some on here perhaps are confused by the term Professional Dog Trainer.At least the GOOD ONES and world renouned ones DO NOT just train dogs.They also SPECIACIALIZE in AGGRESSIVE BHEAVIOUR AND REHABILATAION.


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## classeylassie (Jan 11, 2008)

To each his own.Again all personal choice.I'm just not enthusiastic of using methods ,that must display throughout the whole programme with many warnings of don't try this at home.end of stor.Speaks volumes for me..


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Wow, did I miss an interesting discussion yesterday. Growling at toys, dogs, the wind OK, at me, the family or other visitors, NO Way. My dogs had better have a great reason to growl at a human.

There are more good training methods than most of us will ever know. The main thing is to be consistent. You can not jump from one to the other, pick and choose what you like and have a dog that is dependable. This would be very confusing for the humans much less the dog. New ideas are wonderful but you must incorporate them into a program that is already working. 

I must say Smarty is the hardest dog I have worked with to make consistent, but probably is the smartest. She is the only dog I have used treats with. She is awesome when I have treats and deft when I do not. She is being taken back to the basic and having to do things because I said so. She is not happy at times but is beginning to understand, it is fun to see the light go off in her little head that says “Oh, this is what you want”.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

But when you watch a 30 minute exercise show the first thing it says is don't try this at home until you consult a physician. He is probably the most watched dog trainer out there and so he better but some legal language on there! I have tried the exercise programs, survived, and found them beneficial. If I consulted my physician, he would probably slap me on the back and tell me to try it again!

Amanda


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## classeylassie (Jan 11, 2008)

I don't think anyone has implied that inappropriate growling is acceptable.It is how it is handled.


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

As most of you know I live with 4 dogs. Three havs and a Lab. 

I have watched Cesar, read his books, but also have read many other books. I have tried to read books that would teach me how dogs think, their body language and how to teach them manners. I figure the more I understand them the better the relationship, we will have. 

I think it is very dangerous to give advice to someone telling them they should teach their dog to bite softly. Saying that in case they do bite they will know how to bite softly, without causing harm. Alot of humans cannot control themselves in a fit of anger. I don't see a dog who is at the point of biting, stopping and saying to itself "okay, now remember, I must only bite softly". Other then brushing my dogs teeth, I cannot think of another reason, why I should feel their teeth on my skin.

I also think it is dangerous to give advice that it is okay for your dog to growl at you, or any other person. I see my dogs growl at each other and I let it go on to a certain point. But I will step in when needed. If my hav is picking on my lab and she is not in the mood to play and she growls and they continue, I intervine. I can see where a dog might growl at a child that is picking on him. But it is up to the parents or dog owner to make sure that children know how to act around the dog and the dog around needs to learn how to act around the child. But a dog that growls because I interrupted it's sleep or need to move it is unacceptable. If my dog growls at me because I moved it on the couch, then it doesn't belong on the couch. A dog would never growl at the top dog because it wanted it's spot. It would quietly get up and move and let the alpha dog have it's spot.

I teach my dogs manners.

*I don't let them on the couch without sitting first, then I have to invite them.
*They have to sit before coming back in the house and wait for me to say okay.
*All humans go through the door before them.
*They lay down, I lay down their food and when I say okay, they eat.

I learned these techniques from Cesar. None of them require me to touch my dog or harm them in any way. He is not telling people to hold a dog down to get it into submission. Those are the red zone casese that they are showing. He teaches you how to avoid your dog from becoming that way. 

In all the books I have read, I have never read where you should teach a dog to bite softly or growling at you is a good thing. Growling and biting are always listed in the section of PROBLEM areas, along with barking, chewing ect...

Please don't send me a PM spanking that Julie was referring to, I have gotten them from you before. 

I am not asking you to train your dog the way I train mine. I am just giving my opinion on what has been said, and letting others know what works for me and is a easy way for your dog to see you more as it's leader.


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## classeylassie (Jan 11, 2008)

You know what that was very RUDE of you. Sorry to say I am stuping now to your and others here, level. I am tired of biting my tongue with people like you.I am not telling anyone how to train their dogs.It is an OPINION AND a PERSONAL CHOICE as has been said.IF some of you can't get it though your thick skulls so be it.And as far as the Pm you refer to that was to acknowledge her feelings and an appology if they were hurt.Let the truth be known.It is obvious that a disccusion can not be held with people who have attitudes like you and a few others.There obviously is a little CLIQUE here and if you want to bash others for an opinon,with words like selfrighteous,know it all etc.(as has been done)if that makes you happy codos to you.


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

classeylassie said:


> You know what that was very RUDE of you. Sorry to say I am stuping now to your and others here, level. I am tired of biting my tongue with people like you.I am not telling anyone how to train their dogs.It is an OPINION AND a PERSONAL CHOICE as has been said.IF some of you can't get it though your thick skulls so be it.And as far as the Pm you refer to that was to acknowledge her feelings and an appology if they were hurt.Let the truth be known.It is obvious that a disccusion can not be held with people who have attitudes like you and a few others.There obviously is a little CLICK here and if you want to bash others for an opinon,with words like selfrighteous,know it all etc.(as has been done)if that makes you happy codos to you.


I was referring to the pm's your husband has sent me before, because I didn't agree with what he was suggesting. He told me that I should go read the information that he had read.

When I give my opinion, I don't expect everyone or anyone to agree with me and I don't pm them when they post stating that they don't agree.

Sorry you find my posting rude. It was not meant that way. Just my opinion.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

classeylassie said:


> I'm just not enthusiastic of using methods ,that must display throughout the whole programme with many warnings of don't try this at home.end of stor.Speaks volumes for me..


There are lots of shows that have this warning. I think even "Candid Camera" used to run a disclaimer,as well as like Amanda said,exercise shows and shows like "Jackass". It's to try to keep idiots from jumping into things and getting hurt. If Cesar is so offensive to you,and his disclaimer bothers you,why the hell do you even watch?And record them all? Good grief---that seems crazy :crazy: to me. I'm a fan,and I don't even record his shows! I just don't get that.

The other thing that bothers me about you and your husband----you both pm me and apologized for offending me,and yet you post more and more crap about Cesar---continuing to say insults on him and his techniques.No one has posted anything running down Ian Dunbar. Don't you see this topic was put to bed---till you had to beat the dead horse again:deadhorse: and you just couldn't keep your tape:tape: on. I could care less who you think is a great dog trainer--we do not have to agree. The thing is--you do need to quit running down Cesar.People only run someone else down when they feel inferior.It gives them an ego boost.

Please-let it go. No one's asking you to adopt Cesar's techniques,nor cri-teak them.


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## classeylassie (Jan 11, 2008)

And did he not Julie say that he was sorry if he hurt your feelings in anyway.His intention was not to do that but just to let you know that something might be worth a read.Interesting information whether you agree or not.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Sooo.. Whats the deal with airplane food anyways??


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

Beamer said:


> Sooo.. Whats the deal with airplane food anyways??


I always like the kids meals, hamburgers and chocolate milk!


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

classeylassie said:


> And did he not Julie say that he was sorry if he hurt your feelings in anyway.His intention was not to do that but just to let you know that something might be worth a read.Interesting information whether you agree or not.


Yes,you both did.I just didn't find it sincere as more posts continued to say things about Cesar.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

who cares about the food- delta has actual mojitos for only $5!!!


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

Mile high mojitos!! :whoo:


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## classeylassie (Jan 11, 2008)

Cesar has done some good things and has wonderful intentions as has been said I think a million times now.Again the operative word here is" TECHNIQUES" is what I don't find acceptable.And no one is asking you to adopt any other techniques either.


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

When I flew Delta last year I wasn't even told Mojitos were available! :hurt:


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

I'm thinking that this topic is getting too heated. :flame: Maybe we should talk about something less controversial, something like, what's up with those HSDs. ound::behindsofa:


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## classeylassie (Jan 11, 2008)

wow how childish....that explains it all.cick click click....lmao


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

*Please close the Caeser discussion*

Shall we celebrate with a Mojito? Actually, what are these made of anyway? They sure look good!


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Well general-mint, rum, sugar, lime and soda water. But out here they add different flavors into the mix- my favorite is pineapple. At first I thought it wouldn't be a good mix. But it is and my credit card bill proves it!


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

And since I have had any mojitos.... 

Childish is not being able to agree to disagree and move on. There are plenty of other topics on the Havanese Forum and many don't involve Ian Dunbar or Cesar. I think the only clique is that we all are interested in Havanese!

Amanda


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## classeylassie (Jan 11, 2008)

I agree ama and I sincerely aplogize that I took the comments as been sarcastic.


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Amanda, I LOVE Mojitos and on my way to the U.S. with Delta, they just started offering them and the intendant offered me one for free. It must have been around noon and the first Mojito he ever mixed and 10 min. later I was giggling all by myself for 30 min. cause he put sooo much alcohol in there and kept coming back, asking me to drink it cause he was so proud of himself, LOL.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

You guys drink mojitos on airplanes? I thought Bloody Marys were the standard. 

Since airplane food is uke:

Oh, and on this topic?? I subscribe to the Kara School of Training Methods (combined methods and knowledge from books, TV and this fantabulous forum!).  So far, so good...my sweetie is respectful and loving and gets along well with people of all ages 

Just like with any 'forum' or public venue, you aren't always going to agree with everyone and everything...so take what you need and leave the rest.

Kara


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Thumperlove said:


> You guys drink mojitos on airplanes? I thought Bloody Marys were the standard.
> 
> Since airplane food is uke:
> 
> ...


AMEN!!!


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