# Help understanding a pedigree



## fingerpaintsny (Jan 31, 2013)

Hi. I'm new to hf. I'm considering purchasing a puppy from a breeder whose name I got off the hca web site. After going thru the interview process I am approved to buy a puppy from this breeder. I traced 5 generations of the sire & dam's pedigree myself. How can I tell if its good or bad? Ie: the sires great grandfather on the father's mother side is the same dog as the dam's great grandfather on the father's father side. Much of the pedigree line on the sire's side is duplicated at one time or another. The dam's line not so much except in the ggggreat (4 greats) a half bro/sis was bred with each other on both the ggrandmother's and ggrandfather' side. That was a long time ago in the dogs line. Does it matter? 

The breeder does cerf, baer, hips, patella, thyroid & cardiac on the breeding dogs (which i verified on the offa site) but I can't find those test results for the rest of the dogs in the pedigree. 

I know that buying a dog is not like buying a dishwasher. There are no guarantees. Are there clues or something in the pedigree that I should be looking for? I read through a lot of posts that stress the importance of the pedigree but what does it really tell me?

Also the breeder requires a $500 NON refundable deposit to hold a pick order on the puppies. Is that standard? 

Thanks for your advice.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

I can't help with the pedigree's, but GOOD FOR YOU doing so much research!!!! awesome!! you will be SO happy you did!!
And welcome to the forum!


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

That can be common, as the modern breed was founded in the 70's with only less than 10 dogs. The older part of the pedigree has very little influence on the puppy, it's the first 3 generations, or so I've been told. I would just keep an eye on the COI, or coefficient of inbreeding, which is calculated for you if you are on the Havanese gallery. 30% is high. If it is high, there are more risks associated with recessive genes popping up due to the close genetics.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

As linebreeding goes, that doesn't sound that close. The breeding that most, who study linebreeding, want to do is the Sire of the Sire is also the Grandsire of the Dam. The one you are talking about is not even that close. It's a very complicated study. A breeder can lock in good things, if it's known that only good things are in there. But obviously, it can work the other way too. All purebreds are based at some point off of either linebreeding or inbreeding. It can be a good thing. It can be a bad thing.

It's generally recommended to keep the COI (co-eficient of inbreeding) below 15%.

There is no standard on deposits. Actually, a "non-refundable" deposit is not legal (state law, not federal law-so it probably varies by state), but can be very hard to get your money back. With the demand for these puppies, I don't understand why some breeders, unless they are producing a LOT of puppies, even bother with deposits. In most litters we have, someone has to drop off the list of people in line to get one for one reason or another, but there's always someone else waiting. Having to give a deposit back is just extra trouble for nothing.


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## fingerpaintsny (Jan 31, 2013)

I looked at the dogs pedigree history in the Havanese Gallery but I can't find the coi % listed anywhere.


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## HalleBerry (Feb 22, 2012)

Ok, here's how to find it: this is Halle's pedigree: http://www.havanesegallery.hu/pedigree_en.php?id=32703

underneath her picture is this: COI = 3.91% and that's where you find it


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## fingerpaintsny (Jan 31, 2013)

Thank you!! I got it. That makes a big difference. That was MUCH easier than the way I was doing it. Thanks again!!


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## Becky Chittenden (Feb 4, 2009)

I agree with Tom on what should be a good rule of thumb. I've done that type breeding. Once I didn't get what I was looking for, but the other times, positive results. Perhaps health testing on back generations could be attributed to imported dogs, or not sending in results. I'll admit, I have a whole stack of test results I've not gotten around to sending in, but will, in time.
Glad to hear you're doing your homework


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## El Bueno Habanero (Oct 20, 2009)

Tom King said:


> It's generally recommended to keep the COI (co-eficient of inbreeding) below 15%.


Below 15%...how many generations back are we talking about in this case? Tom, what kind of method do you use to calculate? Wright's or Hardiman's?


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Wright's. 6 generations is what we use. Beyond that and the percentages are so small anyway that they don't add much. 

The 15% is just a general rule of thumb, but we have yet to go over it anyway with any of the breedings we have wanted to do.


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## El Bueno Habanero (Oct 20, 2009)

Ok, thnx!


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## Mr. Brady (Apr 15, 2013)

non refundable!?!?!!!
that would push me away


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