# Silvering



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Hello Havi friends! I’m so curious to know if Jojo’s color will change! Her mom is white chocolate and her dad was dark solid black with cream feet. Her dad is not chocolate but carries the chocolate gene. I also saw her aunt (mom’s sister). She was dark chocolate with silvering. Her coat was growing back in dark chocolate after a haircut. Jojo’s litter was her mom’s very first. I’m so excited to see how my pretty little pup will look in her adult coat! This is a picture of her paw that I think is silvering?? Any way to tell? Any good educated guesses?


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Silvering doesn't usually start on the feet. It is most common around the eyes. Is Jojo's base color chocolate or black. You can tell not from her coat color but her skin color. if her nose and eye rims are black, her base color is black. If her eye rims and nose are brown, she is genetically chocolate. (which can happen, even with a black sire, as he could carry chocolate) I can't tell for sure from your avatar because it's small. She LOOKS like she is chocolate?

Silver comes in two types. If a dog gets two copies of the gene, they start silvering very early, and she would probably show a lot of silvering on her face before she went to her permanent home. So you'd know by now. If they carry only a single copy, expression can be all over the place. Not only in terms of how MUCH they show, but also in terms of WHEN it shows. We suspect that Pixel carries a single copy. We know it is in her family on both sides because there was a two-copy, BRIGHT silver in her litter. Often black puppies that are going to silver turn brownish in adolescence, and she did that. So we were excited to see what was going to happen. She developed a lovely wide streak of silver in her tail and tufts of silver behind each ear. ...And then they COMPLETELY went away again! LOL! So now she's our adorable, completely black dog again. (except for her tiny white markings she has had since birth)

I know other single-copy silvers who have alternated from black with a sprinkle of white hairs to a sort of charcoal color and back off and on through their lives. I haven't known many chocolates, and none that I know of that also carried the silver gene, but I would assume that expression would be similar, but just on the chocolate base. The only difference being that it would probably be harder to see on most chocolates just because most chocolates fade at least to some extent as they mature. And THAT is most likely what you are seeing on her feet, rather than silvering.


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Thank you, Karen! You are such a wealth of great Havanese knowledge and experience! Jojo is chocolate! Liver nose, lips, eye rims. I don’t think she has 2 silver copies as her whole little face is dark brown as is the rest of her except for a little wisp of white on her chest. I’ve been so curious as to what
Her coat will end up like and saw the little bits of Carmel color on the bottoms of her paws. I guess with just one copy (which I don’t even know if she has that?). we will just have to wait and see! Time will tell and I LOVE all colors of Havanese!!!


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

BTW here is a picture of her face.


----------



## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

*Here's my example!*

Everything Karen said is exactly right (which is typical&#128523! Jodie is currently 20 months. The first pic is Jodie at nine weeks when we spent the night at the breeder's house. The 2nd and 3rd are current photos. Jodie's Mom is white and her Dad is black and white. Our 15 year old began as black and beige and is now mostly black/silver with off white legs. Cotton is still all white with a touch of peach on each ear. In 15 years I have never seen color change as dramatic as Jodie!


----------



## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

O yes, every new pic of your Jojo is as just as precious as the last one&#55357;&#56470;


----------



## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

Ok, Karen how do I get that icon of the head slamming on a brick wall?🙃
Jojo Jojo Jojo 
I will not spell Jojo’s name wrong
I will not...


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Haha Jodie is lovely!!! I don’t know how you keep names Jojo and Jodie straight! I can’t even keep my kids names straight and they aren’t even similar!


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Oops now auto correct changed your name from Ja Ja to Ha Ha!!!! Wow🤪


----------



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Jaja, those pictures are awesome! the progression of the dramatic color change is so fun to see!


----------



## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

JoJo is such a pretty girl and I love her coloring. It is amazing how Havanese change colors. I have never had a dog who did this before and am excited to find out how Desi will look in his adult coat. The new growth under his dark chocolate spots is a pale greyish brown so not sure what he will look like as he gets older. 

Karen, you are a wealth of knowledge and I truly enjoy reading your posts!


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Faithb I would love to see up close pics of Desi’s coat and color progression! I am amazed at Havanese colors and how they change! Jojo’s coat is dark brown all the way down except the tiny bit of white on her chest and these bits of Carmel like color I’m noticing on her tiny little paws! I never expected to get a chocolate havi! I thought I wanted a cream dog with a black button nose! I actually had to get used the way Jojo looks! She’s very tiny and a little more scrappy looking than my vision as well! I told my daughter the first day that she is very cute but not very pretty. Now, two weeks later I think she is beautiful ha ha!!!


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KristaS said:


> Thank you, Karen! You are such a wealth of great Havanese knowledge and experience! Jojo is chocolate! Liver nose, lips, eye rims. I don't think she has 2 silver copies as her whole little face is dark brown as is the rest of her except for a little wisp of white on her chest. I've been so curious as to what
> Her coat will end up like and saw the little bits of Carmel color on the bottoms of her paws. I guess with just one copy (which I don't even know if she has that?). we will just have to wait and see! Time will tell and I LOVE all colors of Havanese!!!


Yup! IF she has just one copy, it can be a total shot in the dark. But I doubt what you are seeing on her paws is caused by silvering.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KristaS said:


> BTW here is a picture of her face.
> View attachment 165950


Adorable!!!


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

JaJa said:


> Ok, Karen how do I get that icon of the head slamming on a brick wall?&#128579;
> Jojo Jojo Jojo
> I will not spell Jojo's name wrong
> I will not...


LOL! You have to click the "more" button on the emoji box and tgen scroll untill you find it. (Or remember the code for your favorites... that works too!

:frusty:


----------



## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Jojo is so cute! It will be interesting to watch and see if Jojo stays a dark chocolate. She reminds me a lot of Truffles as a puppy. Her mom was a chocolate parti and sire a chocolate sable. I started noticing white hairs on her back around six months old. She kind of looked silvery chocolate for awhile and then darkened again. She is a milk chocolate color, but her coat color does change. Here's a few pictures. Sorry...the only early puppy pic's I have are videos. The last one is from a few days ago. Once again her coat color seems to be changing. &#128522;


----------



## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

Weeeell, Ed and I were out of town overnight 😉 when we started discussing names. I wanted to name her Josie but Ed thought that would eventually be insulting to our niece so he asked about Jodie and we both like it. When we arrived home it hit us and we started laughing. JoJo is blind and almost deaf so it’s actually never been an issue. Jodie bounds at high speed to everyone’s name so we taught her “wait your turn.” 
Notation: I don’t know why the text keeps showing numbers and symbols. I’m pretty positive none of us are swearing at each other😆


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Oh my goodness, Heather!!!! Truffles us gorgeous in all her colors!! She really did look like Jojo as a puppy. Her little slippers😍! I’m so excited to see what Jojo will do!


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Jaja I’m not getting numbers and symbols on my end so I hope I’m not send them! I love that you taught Jodie “wait your turn!” Too cute!!


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

JaJa said:


> Weeeell, Ed and I were out of town overnight &#128521; when we started discussing names. I wanted to name her Josie but Ed thought that would eventually be insulting to our niece so he asked about Jodie and we both like it. When we arrived home it hit us and we started laughing. JoJo is blind and almost deaf so it's actually never been an issue. Jodie bounds at high speed to everyone's name so we taught her "wait your turn."
> Notation: I don't know why the text keeps showing numbers and symbols. I'm pretty positive none of us are swearing at each other&#128518;


I think those numbers and symbols show up when someone uses the emojis built into their computer, tablet or phone programs rather than the built-in forum ones. The form software is VERY old, and I don't think it can handle them, and the strange string of characters is the best it can do!


----------



## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

KristaS said:


> Oh my goodness, Heather!!!! Truffles us gorgeous in all her colors!! She really did look like Jojo as a puppy. Her little slippers&#128525;! I'm so excited to see what Jojo will do!


I had to post the pictures because Jojo and Truffles really look like twins as puppies. &#128522;


----------



## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

KristaS said:


> Faithb I would love to see up close pics of Desi's coat and color progression! I am amazed at Havanese colors and how they change! Jojo's coat is dark brown all the way down except the tiny bit of white on her chest and these bits of Carmel like color I'm noticing on her tiny little paws! I never expected to get a chocolate havi! I thought I wanted a cream dog with a black button nose! I actually had to get used the way Jojo looks! She's very tiny and a little more scrappy looking than my vision as well! I told my daughter the first day that she is very cute but not very pretty. Now, two weeks later I think she is beautiful ha ha!!!


Krista, I know exactly what you mean. I thought I wanted a black and white Havanese but had only two choices, Desi and a little boy that was all chocolate with one white paw. I was somewhat disappointed that the pink spot on his nose did not fill in but now I think it is part of his charm. JoJo is adorable!


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Oh dear! It seems I am the one posting numbers and symbols! I didn’t know about the emojis!!! Sorry!!!


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Heather I couldn’t agree more that Jojo looks like Truffels’ twin as a puppy! That is very flattering as truffles is so beautiful! I’m so pleased with and proud of Jojo! She’s not what I expected in looks! In temperament.... she is just amazing! She is still sooo chill!!!! She just naturally loves everyone! She has been so great with other dogs she’s met! I loop her leash around my wrist and run my vacuum and she just comes right along! She’s not a lover of swimming but seemed to understand it was an important thing to learn about our pool. Everything and everyone I’ve introduced her to she’s just taken in perfect stride! She’s a wonderful little old sole and is fitting into our life perfectly! Tomorrow she is going to fly to CA with us and spend the week in Balboa bay! So far she loves her travel bag and I think we will have a great trip with a great puppy!!!! So now, this little chocolate puppy is perfect and the thoughts of a cream puppy with a black nose are long gone!!!!! Ha ha!


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Faith, I LOVE Desi’s nose!!!! And LOVE that YOU see the charm in it!! I don’t know how to post a forum emoji heart without looking like I’m cussing ha ha so just imagine it please!!!


----------



## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

*We love Cotton's pink nose too!*

Originally I wanted a different puppy also. Our breeder and her friend work together so there were 2 litters a week apart. The other dog mom was chocolate and white. Her little girl had no interest in me or Ed and kept going off to the other room. Jodie was moving around much slower and when I picked her up she licked my face immediately and snuggled. Then she went over to Ed, whose legs were bent up, aand curled up under his knees. They let us spend the night with Jodie in our room. Oh my word, the puppy we "thought" we wanted was yapping all night long! That's what we were expecting Jodie to do. Thank you for your posts KristaS and Faithb, it brought back wonderful memories and reminded Ed and I that we indeed came home with the right baby. :angel:
Cotton's nose was suppose to be black but we love him just the way he is.


----------



## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

*Here's my Silverback-*

Your pics are great Heather!


----------



## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

Whoops, I had this thread opened twice and confused myself-sorry for the redundancy.


----------



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Heather, the video of Truffles with the bully stick made me laugh. Sundance used to do that, he didn’t get that it was long and he would try to carry it someplace and it was like he was going through an obstacle course. Puppies are just so fun to watch. 

I can’t believe how much darker truffles was! I think silver Havanese are so pretty, and I always forget they didn’t start out silver! It must be fun to watch in person.


----------



## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

The video was taken the first night Truffles was home. She was eight weeks old and 3 lbs. I had never heard of silvering until it was mentioned on HF. I guess that's what has happened. 😊


----------



## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

JaJa, Cotton is a cutie!


----------



## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

Oliver is a chocolate parti and his brown patches turned VERY light. In fact I believe he has some slivering, because there are streaks of super light, blonde. Right on his ears. And here’s a 6 month old puppy pic for comparison


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Woods said:


> Oliver is a chocolate parti and his brown patches turned VERY light. In fact I believe he has some slivering, because there are streaks of super light, blonde. Right on his ears. And here's a 6 month old puppy pic for comparison


My bet would still be that that is sable genes or just typical chocolate "fading" rather than the silver gene. the silver gene, to my knowledge, would be the complete absence of color. So even on a chocolate, those hairs would be white.

OTOH, there is a LOT of "guess-work" in "modifier genes" in Havanese, so who knows? For those who are REALLY interested, you CAN do DNA testing for many (but not all) color genes.


----------



## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

Those are good examples Melissa and of course Oliver is still adorable. How old is he now?


----------



## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

JaJa said:


> Those are good examples Melissa and of course Oliver is still adorable. How old is he now?


He's almost 2


----------



## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

krandall said:


> Melissa Woods said:
> 
> 
> > Oliver is a chocolate parti and his brown patches turned VERY light. In fact I believe he has some slivering, because there are streaks of super light, blonde. Right on his ears. And here's a 6 month old puppy pic for comparison
> ...


That makes sense! These aren't a complete absence of color, but a champagne blonde. They are shimmery so I thought that might be silver. But it could of course just be kind of like blond hair


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Oh my gosh Oliver is sooo cute!!!!


----------



## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

Yes, Oliver is adorable! I have a feeling that Desi is going to look very similar in color.


----------



## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

I went backwards through this thread to find the Truffles video. So cute! I love how much bigger Scout is and how he watches in such a mellow fashion. But watch to the very end when ... he picks up that bully stick!


----------



## pvlahos (Jan 2, 2020)

Oh what a cutie! I am learning a lot just reading this thread. Our Duke is a chocolate, wish we knew what his mom and dad were. He was very dark when we got him at 9 weeks, almost black, with white in spots around his body. Now the blackish brown has faded to a medium almost redish brown. Very curious to see if he stays like this or fades even more. Havanese coloring is so fascinating!


----------



## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

pvlahos said:


> Oh what a cutie! I am learning a lot just reading this thread. Our Duke is a chocolate, wish we knew what his mom and dad were. He was very dark when we got him at 9 weeks, almost black, with white in spots around his body. Now the blackish brown has faded to a medium almost redish brown. Very curious to see if he stays like this or fades even more. Havanese coloring is so fascinating!


Duke is adorable! I met a Havanese this evening whose owners said that she had been very dark almost black when she was born and was now almost solid white. It is fascinating to document the change in photos.


----------



## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

It really is hard to determine because in looking through these photos Oliver's dark parts do look very much like the chocolate turned silver example here. That said, I would bet this phenotype is pretty complex and there can be varying degrees of expression even within the same genotype. 
https://havaneseabc.com/gallery14.html


----------



## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

Melissa, that is the info our breeder had on her website in it’s entirety. It’s a fascinating read and I loved the pictures. I think the question of color on applications should be “What color would you like to begin with?” 😋


----------



## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

pvlahos said:


> Our Duke is a chocolate, wish we knew what his mom and dad were. He was very dark when we got him at 9 weeks, almost black, with white in spots around his body. Now the blackish brown has faded to a medium almost redish brown. Very curious to see if he stays like this or fades even more. Havanese coloring is so fascinating!


Duke is so cute! How old is you little guy?


----------



## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Melissa Woods said:


> It really is hard to determine because in looking through these photos Oliver's dark parts do look very much like the chocolate turned silver example here. That said, I would bet this phenotype is pretty complex and there can be varying degrees of expression even within the same genotype.
> https://havaneseabc.com/gallery14.html


Oliver is a cutie! He has lightened up quite a bit. Truffles does look like the chocolate turned silver. She still looks like a brown dog to me. &#128522;


----------



## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

I was finally was able to get a photo of Desi’s face that shows his coloring. He always looks so dark in pictures. The second photo shows the light greyish brown color of his fur under his little chocolate spots. He certainly is changing.


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Thank you for sharing those adorable pics of Desi, Faith! His color is changing!!!! I love seeing pictures of everyone’s puppies!!!


----------



## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

What a precious little face! 🥰 It does look like that Desi's coat color is changing. I think it was around six months when I noticed Truffles color changing.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

He's still as cute as can be, though!!!


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Havanese puppies are the most fun! Not only do we get to see how they change as they grow bigger! They have color change surprises waiting to be revealed too!


----------



## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

Love the new picture KristaS, what a sweetie pie!


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Ja Ja you are so sweet to notice! I took that today and thought it was very like the first one and showed how she’s grown! A whole pound since we got her!! She’s almost 2 1/2 lbs now!


----------



## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

JoJo looks so adorable in her new photo!


----------



## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

She looks like a mini teddy bear😋 Jodie’s Dad was 19 pounds so she weighs in at almost 14. Although she hops, sails through the air and zig zags like a little jack rabbit!


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Ha ha Ja Ja! I would love to see Jodie the jack rabbit!


----------



## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

*Silvering and something else*

I finally was able to get an accurate photo of Jodie's coloring underneath the top layer. It looks even more like chocolate in person. Out breeder has been fascinated watching our photos. Her litter mates haven't changed color at all! I think Karen wrote, at some point, that one of her kids changed colors several times also.


----------



## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Beautiful coat and color! Is Jodie's more chocolate on top?


----------



## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

No, she’s very silver, almost white. I posted a pic on page 3. I love brushing her because she’s so soft and pretty underneath. Her top coat feels drier and stiffer than the rest off her.


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Lovely coat!


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

JaJa said:


> I finally was able to get an accurate photo of Jodie's coloring underneath the top layer. It looks even more like chocolate in person. Out breeder has been fascinated watching our photos. Her litter mates haven't changed color at all! I think Karen wrote, at some point, that one of her kids changed colors several times also.


Not mine! Pixel got her splashes of silver around a year old, lost them, and that was that. Pretty minor in terms of Havanese color change tricks! LOL! (and both Panda and Kodi have been "just black and white" since birth) But I've seen so many Havanese change color "serially through their lives! LOTS of them do it through their entire lives!


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

JaJa said:


> No, she's very silver, almost white. I posted a pic on page 3. I love brushing her because she's so soft and pretty underneath. Her top coat feels drier and stiffer than the rest off her.


Is her base color chocolate? Is her skin chocolate or black?


----------



## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

Jodie’s skin is pink. She was mostly black when we got her but even then we could see the chocolate highlights, especially at night. It’s mower pronounced now that her hair is so light. Her parents are having another litter next month so we’re all very interested in how Jodie’s siblings turn out. Is it possible her skin could change color?
Also, I feel silly asking but how did you get your animated strips from Ticker Factory to your page?


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

JaJa said:


> Jodie's skin is pink. She was mostly black when we got her but even then we could see the chocolate highlights, especially at night. It's mower pronounced now that her hair is so light. Her parents are having another litter next month so we're all very interested in how Jodie's siblings turn out. Is it possible her skin could change color?
> Also, I feel silly asking but how did you get your animated strips from Ticker Factory to your page?


No, pigment doesn't change. (well, newborns often have pink skin, but by the time they are leaving for their homes, it is clear what their pigment is) We are not talking about the skin on her belly, or under her coat. (especially under white parts) When discussing "pigment, we are talking about noses, eye rims and lips. There are only two proper colors for these in Havanese. Liver or brown in chocolate dogs (even chocolate sables that have faded to near white), or black in ALL other colors. Now, there are ARE Havanese with poor pigment, that have pink noses or pigment missing from eye rims, etc. These are not eligible to be shown and should not be bred under most circumstances, and are usually sold as pets. There is absolutely NOTHING physically wrong with them, though, and they make perfectly fine pets!

If Jodie has black pigment, the brownish parts you see in her hair are not "chocolate". They are some other gene... maybe sable, maybe she has tricolor genes, but it definitely, 100% would NOT be chocolate. That's not possible. Also, it's VERY common for black puppies who are going to silver to go through a "reddish brown" phase. Pixel did that too, even though her flirt with silver was short-lived, with only the splashes around her ears and in her tail, that then went away again.


----------



## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

JaJa said:


> how did you get your animated strips from Ticker Factory to your page?


I can't remember right now and don't have time to pursue, but it's in your User CP. If we have a virtual play date one of these days, we can add Ticker Factory to the agenda!


----------



## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

I’m aware of the solid noses to qualify for show. Jodie and JoJo have always had solid black noses, eye rims and lips. Cotton’s nose is mostly pink but he was an HRI rescue and born at a puppy mill in Missouri. As you stated, it has no bearing on the quality of the dog’s personality. Cotton has always been easy to train, eager to please and the best snuggler I’ve had in 61 years. 
I should correct my verbiage so I don’t confuse others. Jodie’s highlights resemble the tobacco color of the Havana Brown variety with black pigment. It is a reddish brown not a chocolate variant. Using the word chocolate is an amusing but long story from when we were researching and looking for puppies. When we went to meet the puppies, Jodie changed our minds and we are stilled head over heels in love with our silver princess❣


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

JaJa said:


> I'm aware of the solid noses to qualify for show. Jodie and JoJo have always had solid black noses, eye rims and lips. Cotton's nose is mostly pink but he was an HRI rescue and born at a puppy mill in Missouri. As you stated, it has no bearing on the quality of the dog's personality. Cotton has always been easy to train, eager to please and the best snuggler I've had in 61 years.
> I should correct my verbiage so I don't confuse others. Jodie's highlights resemble the tobacco color of the Havana Brown variety with black pigment. It is a reddish brown not a chocolate variant. Using word chocolate is an amusing but long story from when we were researching and looking for puppies. When we went to meet the puppies, Jodie changed our minds and we are stilled head over heels in love with our silver princess❣


I was just adding the part about pink noses for other people reading... sometimes people read that it's a DQ, and worry that there is something "wrong" with their perfectly lovely pet Havanese.


----------



## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

Cotton is definitely “perfectly lovely” he’s snuggled against my legs right now😋


----------



## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

Desi still has a small pink spot on his nose. At first I was worried about the pigment not filling in but now I think it adds to his charm. He will be 16 weeks on Friday so I doubt it will change much. You are right Karen and JaJa, it makes absolutely no difference if you are not planning to show.


----------



## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

Denver’s eye rim is STILL filling in, but only on the top of the skin, it’s still pink right on the edge. I think it makes him unique. And he acts more like a show dog than our show dog potential. So, there’s that. Lolol.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Faithb said:


> Desi still has a small pink spot on his nose. At first I was worried about the pigment not filling in but now I think it adds to his charm. He will be 16 weeks on Friday so I doubt it will change much. You are right Karen and JaJa, it makes absolutely no difference if you are not planning to show.


Although, at 16 weeks, there IS still a chance that his will fill in, especially if it's small. But as you said, it doesn't matter, and it gives him character! <3


----------



## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Truffles paw pads were all chocolate except for one little toe pad that was pink. Recently I noticed it is now chocolate. Scout had an accident at a pet hospital when he was about a year old. He was staying overnight and I noticed his nose looked irritated when I picked him up. The next day he had a pink nose. 😳 The vet said when dogs board sometimes they will rub their nose on the enclosure. I was not happy. It took two months, but eventually he started getting little pinpoint black spots that filled in. His nose is now black, but in that area isn't quite as dark.


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Oh my goodness Heather! Poor little Scout! I had no idea that could happen! All of Jojo’s paw pads are dark chocolate brown too! As her nose etc. Her toenails are also all dark. I don’t know if the nails and pad color go together in pigment but am curious about that! I’m not willing to even try to trim those dark nails! I take her every other week and have them do it!


----------



## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

It’s not possible for Desi to get any cuter! Here’s a pic of my pink nosed angel 👼 💖


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

JaJa said:


> It's not possible for Desi to get any cuter! Here's a pic of my pink nosed angel &#128124; &#128150;


Cotton doesn't look, at least in this photo, like he has a really pink nose. (totally lacking in pigment). There is another phenomenon in a certain percentage of ee dogs (those are dogs on the continuum between dark red to pale cream) some of those dogs DO have black noses when they are six to 18 months old, then their noses fade. Sometimes even more in the winter, which has given it the name "winter nose". Cotton's nose looks more like that to me. It certainly is not completely lacking in pigment.


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Wow that’s fascinating, Karen! These dogs are full of surprises! Cotton is the cutest!!!


----------



## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

JaJa said:


> It's not possible for Desi to get any cuter! Here's a pic of my pink nosed angel &#128124; &#128150;


She is too cute for words!


----------



## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

This photo shows Desi’s pink spot as well as his coloring. His skin underneath his fur is pink and his nails are light. His fur is very wispy on his tail and you can see his skin. Is this normal?


----------



## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

krandall said:


> Cotton doesn't look, at least in this photo, like he has a really pink nose. (totally lacking in pigment). There is another phenomenon in a certain percentage of ee dogs (those are dogs on the continuum between dark red to pale cream) some of those dogs DO have black noses when they are six to 18 months old, then their noses fade. Sometimes even more in the winter, which has given it the name "winter nose". Cotton's nose looks more like that to me. It certainly is not completely lacking in pigment.


Is this the same as the dilution Gene which Results in the rose or lilac Color nose?


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Faith, I just think Desi is sooo cute!!! I love that white fur above his nose! His mustache! Ha ha!!


----------



## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

Good point since Cotton does have black eye rims and lips. We rescued him the day before his first birthday and his nose has always looked the same. Desi’s little spot is a better example, although that just adds to his unique cuteness. Faithb, Desi couldn’t possibly be more adorable! I think it’s a dilution gene but I haven’t expanded my research the last couple years. I’m sure Karen can tell us, although she may be asleep at this point but tomorrow for sure.


----------



## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

Thank you both. We are all so lucky to have such wonderful dogs! The Havanese ABC Rainbow website is really interesting reading. Here is a link to the page regarding nose pigmentations. https://havaneseabc.com/base7.html


----------



## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

Good post Faithb. I read every page of Colours of the Rainbow 2 years ago but I need to do it again. So, it looks like you keep the same hour as EvaE1izabeth and I (me).


----------



## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

I go to bed at a decent time but then I wake up every night around 3:00. At least I have good company with you and EvaElizabeth.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KristaS said:


> Wow that's fascinating, Karen! These dogs are full of surprises! Cotton is the cutest!!!


He certainly is! And he has to-die-for dark eye rims! He looks like someone painted on his eyeliner for him! <3


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Faithb said:


> This photo shows Desi's pink spot as well as his coloring. His skin underneath his fur is pink and his nails are light. His fur is very wispy on his tail and you can see his skin. Is this normal?


Adorable and completely normal baby!!! <3

In Desi's case, only time will tell whether his nose will fill in completely. He's young enough that it MIGHT if it were simply an issue of "filling in". OTOH, his is one of those things that make a breeder want to kick themselves. An adorable little guy with a white marking JUST touching his nose pad... which MAY be the reason for the pink on his nose. If you see, it looks like they are attached to each other. If that is the case, the pink is part of the marking, and it is unlikely to go away completely, though it may get smaller over time. The bad thing about something like that is that it keeps the dog out of the show ring. The good thing is that it's TOTALLY not heritable... markings are random from one dog to the next. So some breeders, especially in a very nice bitch, will keep a girl for their breeding program that has a "mis-mark" like this, even if they can't show her. Less likely with a boy, though, simply because they need fewer boys.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Faithb said:


> Is this the same as the dilution Gene which Results in the rose or lilac Color nose?


No. "Winter nose" has nothing to do with a dilution gene. We're not sure what causes it. Pigment around the eyes, lips and paw pads remains completely black. Only the nose lightens.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

JaJa said:


> Good point since Cotton does have black eye rims and lips. We rescued him the day before his first birthday and his nose has always looked the same. Desi's little spot is a better example, although that just adds to his unique cuteness. Faithb, Desi couldn't possibly be more adorable! I think it's a dilution gene but I haven't expanded my research the last couple years. I'm sure Karen can tell us, although she may be asleep at this point but tomorrow for sure.


You know my habits! Early to bed! LOL! (although last night I was watching the debate... Much more civil, though I'm not sure we learned much more!  )

The only "dilute" gene we have in Havanese is blue, and that is EXTREMELY rare. (and a DQ) It has nothing to do with "winter nose", or chocolate, or poor pigment in chocolates.


----------



## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

You are a wealth of information Karen! Thanks for answering our questions.


----------



## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

My niece has a cream Havanese that looks exactly like cotton! Her nose was dark black but now is more pinky looking.... I hadn’t noticed it changed but called asked her because the picture of Cotton looked so much like Ellie Mae! My niece confirmed that her nose has in fact changed! It must be “winter nose!” Thank you Karen!


----------

