# A Jinx and Gryff update



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I just wanted to give you all an update on the dogs. They are getting along amazingly well. Right now, they are both on the floor chewing on the same bully stick. They each have an end just like Lady and the Tramp.

Gryff is being a nicer dog since getting Jinx. He seems more tolerant.

Jinx is really good health-wise. His poops are still a bit soft, but it's not pudding anymore.

The only thing concerning me now is that I've heard Jinx growl at Alec. I don't want to wind up with the same situation where Alec has no dog. Any thoughts on nipping this thing?


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

Oh, they look so cute together! Jinx is precious!

I don't know what to say about the growls - where is Dave when we need him???


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## angiern2004 (Apr 24, 2011)

OMG Jinx is seriously CUTE!!!

Does he feed Jinx? Maybe hand feeding him? 

Is there something different about your son during the times Jinx growls at him? For an example, Trooper growled at ME the other day, and I realized that I've had my hair in a ponytail most all the time since we've had Trooper home, and that day I had my hair down. Something about that bugged him I guess, maybe he thought it was a stranger or something, but he got over it real quick when I talked to him and petted him. 

Other than those ideas, we need Dave.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

Have Alec always bring Jinx a special treat when approaching him. And also maybe talk to your son and tell him not to disturb Jinx when he is sleeping... Tillie will growl like an old lady when she is disturbed while sleeping... LOL


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

*Calming signals*

I'd guess Alec is approaching Jinx in a way Jinx finds a bit scary.

The trick would be to let Jinx approach Alec, rather than the other way around. Let Alec sit down, perhaps on the floor, sideways to Jinx, but not looking at him. Have Alec hold a few really yummy treats in his hand, in his palm. See if Jinx will come up and take them, one by one. (One treat in the hand nearest Jinx, the others in the other hand).

You can read about calming signals here:

http://www.canis.no/rugaas/

Here's a picture of me meeting very traumatized Camellia the day I picked her up; this is the sort of position I mean:

http://www.coherentdog.org/camcome.php

Edit to add information: in the picture, the box in my left hand has the treats in it; I'd take one at a time out of the box, being careful to move very slowly.

Alec should never REACH for Jinx. Best move slowly around Jinx, too, moving in arcs, never approaching directly, never looming over him.

Bet after a time things will settle.

Keep us posted, and ask more questions if they occur to you!

Mon, 26 Mar 2012 00:42:42 (PDT)


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## Atticus (May 17, 2011)

great ideas! By the way where is Dave? I miss him! Back to the growling, try to figure when it happens, is Jinx jealous of Alec because you are his person? Is he growling in play with Alec or is it just if he walks in the room? We need more info. Glad it's all going well with the 2 pups tho!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I agree with Jody that we need more information about when/how this is happening. It might be that Alec is overwhelming Jinx, but it could also just be "puppy play". So much depends on the circumstances, and as carol said, reading "dog language".

In any case, another game that can build value into going to a specific person, and ALSO works to teach name recognition and the start of a great recall is to have Alec sit at one end of a hallway, and another person sit at the other end, both with a number of small treats.(if done near meal time, it can even be the puppy's kibble)

Have one person do something to attract the puppy's attention. This can be calling his name, if he knows it well, or if not, saying "pup, pup, pup" in a high voice while gently patting the ground. (do NOT use the word "come" or any other "permanent" recall word right now!!!) when the pup goes to the person, treats, praise and gentle strokes, then have the other person (Alec) call him. With most puppies, it only takes a few reps before the pup understands the game and is BLASTING up and down the hall. Then add the next step, which is to GENTLY restrain the puppy (just by putting your hands around him) before you give him the treat. Otherwise you can develop the idea that "drivebys" are good enough.

This game will teach Jinx to comfortable approach Alec, and it will teach Alec how to gently interact with Jinx so that Jinx doesn't feel any need to act defensive.

I did talk to Dave a couple of days ago. He has some stuff going on right now that is taking up all his time. He said to say "Hi" to everyone, and say that he'll be back as soon as he can!


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## nlb (Feb 26, 2012)

Jinx is adorable, and reminds me of you know who. 

Cass would growl at my daughter when she came home from school, but she is very tall and puts her hair back, so Cass didn't recognize her at first. 

Lot of good suggestions here so far. Good luck.


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

Yes, lots of good suggestions so far and I can't help in the growling area. Timmy growls when he plays, like when you try to take a toy away, but it's not malicious. I am trying to get him to stop though. Oh and by the way that picture is just so cute. Hopefully I won't see a picture like that in a couple years or I might catch MHS!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jabojenny said:


> Yes, lots of good suggestions so far and I can't help in the growling area. Timmy growls when he plays, like when you try to take a toy away, but it's not malicious. I am trying to get him to stop though. Oh and by the way that picture is just so cute. Hopefully I won't see a picture like that in a couple years or I might catch MHS!


It's important not to discourage growling. Growling (other than play growling) is a dog's only "early warning system. Dogs who are regularly disciplined for growling can go directly to a bite without any warning first.


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

krandall said:


> It's important not to discourage growling. Growling (other than play growling) is a dog's only "early warning system. Dogs who are regularly disciplined for growling can go directly to a bite without any warning first.


Yes that's what Timmy's trainer said when I asked her about him doing this initially. She wanted to confirm his growling was play initiated, before telling me to start working on "drop it." He only does it when we're playing especially like a tug of war thing, which I don't want to promote. We're working very hard with "drop it" he's getting better but not perfect yet. We're getting there though, just need to be consistent, and my kids don't always follow through when they're playing with him.

Jinx's growling sounds like it might be different though.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yep, I agree, never discourage or punish growling. Could use more info.But like Carol mentioned, Jinx doesn't quite seem comfortable with your son. Work on that , not the growling. As much as it seems like you are reinforcing the growling ,by backing off after he growls, that's OK. Work on the cause of the growl not the growl. Look at Dog Star Daily for more on "classical conditioning" Ivy. do a search there. What a cute lookin guy.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

YAY!!! Dave's back! We've missed you!


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

krandall said:


> It's important not to discourage growling. Growling (other than play growling) is a dog's only "early warning system. Dogs who are regularly disciplined for growling can go directly to a bite without any warning first.


Such CRUCIAL information, Karen; thanks for posting that!

I forgot to mention that if you go to the Yahoo DogRead group, you have to join, in order to be able to read messages. All the messages this past month are very much worth reading, as Dr. Nancy Kay, who writes on dog health and medical advocacy for dogs, was the guest from 1-15 March, and Jolanta Benal is the guest from 15-31 March this year. All the books being discussed are very much worth buying, if you have any money for books.

In principle, if your dog growls at you, BACK OFF! Stop what you're doing that triggered the growl. It could be as simple as staring at your dog; some dogs are very uncomfortable with this; they are worried, and that's why they are growling. Something as simple as turning your head to the side could stop the growling. Typically, healthy, well-bred dogs will do just about anything to avoid conflict. And the growl is a warning that they feel defensive. if we avoid conflict too, we can stop the growling that way.

Of course, there's play-growling, which is different, and also very natural. You can get to tell the difference easily enough with your own dog, because you know your dog!

Mon, 26 Mar 2012 16:42:14 (PDT)


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## myyuppypuppy (Oct 4, 2007)

I don't agree with any of you. Pick him up by the scruff of his neck as I showed you. Lifting him off the ground tell him very firmly while looking him directly in the eye. "no growl". Then say time out and he goes in his xpen. I do not tolerate this behavior and if you nip this now it is over. All three of you r top dogs. If he thinks Alec is afraid of him it is hard to nip. I will be up there in a couple of weeks. Let me teach Alec how to get control. Ps. Look under hints and tips in your book.


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## myyuppypuppy (Oct 4, 2007)

Just don't forget who raised him and I am definartely not a soft person. As type a as they come. As you know that puppy can be dragged around by his ears and tail and never respond. I don't baby them to the point they become sissy little brats. I make them strong and confident and able to tackle the world. Keep them that way and make him know that he is not in charge ever.


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

myyuppypuppy said:


> I don't agree with any of you. Pick him up by the scruff of his neck as I showed you. Lifting him off the ground tell him very firmly while looking him directly in the eye. "no growl". Then say time out and he goes in his xpen. I do not tolerate this behavior and if you nip this now it is over. All three of you r top dogs. If he thinks Alec is afraid of him it is hard to nip. I will be up there in a couple of weeks. Let me teach Alec how to get control. Ps. Look under hints and tips in your book.


I did something similar with Henry (and it only had to be done 2 or 3 times, very few.)
The question I have (on Ivy's behalf), would Alec have to be the one doing this or is effective enough for Ivy or her husband to do?
How long would he go into the xpen for?


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

myyuppypuppy said:


> I don't agree with any of you. Pick him up by the scruff of his neck as I showed you. Lifting him off the ground tell him very firmly while looking him directly in the eye. "no growl". Then say time out and he goes in his xpen. I do not tolerate this behavior and if you nip this now it is over. All three of you r top dogs. If he thinks Alec is afraid of him it is hard to nip. I will be up there in a couple of weeks. Let me teach Alec how to get control. Ps. Look under hints and tips in your book.


What book is that? I'm curious.

I KNOW you are the finest of breeders; I followed the story of how you helped with Jinx when he had that diarrhea. I believe you identified the cause correctly too - stress.

Please let me invite you into the world of revised methods of teaching dogs. You don't have to take me up on this invitation, but perhaps you could at least have a look around, which might suggest to you some alternative choices to what you propose here.

Here's a site that can be helpful:

http://dogtrainer.quickanddirtytips.com/

And here's a more specific page, on aggression:

http://dogtrainer.quickanddirtytips.com/dog-growls-snaps.aspx

There's lots more information available as well.

One other reservation I have about your suggestion is the idea of picking a puppy up by the scruff. You might be able to do that without injuring the pup, but it does risk injury to the pup, if not done to perfection.

I think it's useful to take advantage of the extensive research done in the last few decades (two or three, approximately), and the development of of new practices in teaching and caring for dogs that have followed the information discovered in the research.

All that said, I've done things your way, and my dog and I paid for it; in short, I learned the hard way.

I'm not saying it's easy to learn to teach a pup using the modern ways; it takes a lot of thought. But we can learn to do it well, with time and practice. In the meantime, if anybody has doubts, or isn't sure what to do, there are many good resources on the Internet (such as those I just pointed to), and there are increasing numbers of trainers and behavior counselors who have become expert at working with us humans and our dogs.

It doesn't hurt, either, if you determine the unwanted behavior might be related to the dog's physical condition, to consult a board-certified veterinary behaviorist.

The essence of this lies in the following:

1) Dogs learn by association;

2) Aggression begets aggression (or total shut-down in the dog);

3) Well-bred, healthy dogs will work to avoid conflict. Really!

A growl is part of the work to avoid conflict! A growl never hurt a body!

Tue, 27 Mar 2012 07:12:45 (PDT|)


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

*Should you punish your dog?*

Since I put up a couple of links to Jolanta Benal's site, while I was there, I looked around a bit, and I found this article:

http://dogtrainer.quickanddirtytips.com/punishment-pitfalls.aspx

I recommend reading that one. I'm famliar with the content, as much similar content is available in earlier works; for instance, Pamela Reid's book entitled _Excel-erated Learning_, which summarizes benefits and risks of punisment, and of how punishment works.

I'm also familiar with some earlier works that strongly recommend punishing dogs for behavior that appears to challenge the human concerning "who is boss."

In short, I've studied a lot, and there was a time when I believed the old stuff. I must admit, that when I discovered the newer stuff, and tried it out, I found it worked with less damage to the dogs, to put things mildly!

One thing I'm sure of; I could never have brought Camellia along unless I'd studied carefully. I'm happy to report that while she's not perfect, she has come a long way with me in the year and a half and a bit more that she's been my dog.

Tue, 27 Mar 2012 07:42:32 (PDT)


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I think Alec gets in his face too much and it makes Jinx uncomfortable. Yesterday we had Alec sit next to him on the floor and give him a treat and Jinx came right up on his lap and hung out with him.

Janet - Alec tried the scruff thing, but I'm afraid he will either wind up hurting Jinx or Jinx will become afraid of him. I think it's one thing for an adult to do it, but something else for an 11 year old.

Other than that and the occasional peeing in the house (our fault always), Jinx is doing really well. He and Gryff are inseparable. I love when they chew on the same bully stick at the same time!

Jinx was finally regular enough to get his second round of shots on Monday and he came through with flying colors. I think he's doubled in size since we got him. He can sit on command and he is also showing good recall.


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

ivyagogo said:


> I think Alec gets in his face too much and it makes Jinx uncomfortable. Yesterday we had Alec sit next to him on the floor and give him a treat and Jinx came right up on his lap and hung out with him.
> 
> Janet - Alec tried the scruff thing, but I'm afraid he will either wind up hurting Jinx or Jinx will become afraid of him. I think it's one thing for an adult to do it, but something else for an 11 year old.
> 
> ...


Great job with Jinx! Please give Alec my heartiest congratulations!

I believe you're right, that Jinx would likely become afraid of Alec if the punishment technique were used; it's a common kind of fallout from punishment.

SO glad Jinx is in better physical condition now. And that he and Gryff are getting along so well!

Looking forward to more stories of Gryff and Jinx - and Alec, too!

Tue, 27 Mar 2012 07:58:28 (PDT)


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## myyuppypuppy (Oct 4, 2007)

who writes those books you speak of.... people just like me.. LOL

anyway... you have never been to my house.. you have never met my dogs... however those that have, absolutely know I do not Tolerate that type of behavior with Humans and nip it in the bud so to speak. I am the top dog and ALWAYS will be... My dogs are the most social, funny, love everybody, everything havenese you will ever meet in ANY enviroment. They do NOT gain confidence from each other, or their home, or from me. They are ALL taught self confidence and that they are able to handle themselves anywhere, anytime, anyday. They are taught change is good and that they are loved no matter what. They also know that NO means NO and Enough means Enough.

ALL dogs adore me and respect me and even sick, injured and in pain dogs let me do whatever..... I show no fear and TEACH them what I want them to know... How do you repremand a child who shoots across a road without looking... Do you do it in a sweet little voice saying, please honey dont do that.. Or are you firm with your child?

I dont think Alec should reprimand Jinx, however Ivy and her husband sure as hell should. and very firmly and include a time out... Picking a dog up by its scruff causes NO pain (my puppies have been picked up that way since the day they were born), the point to lifting it off the ground is to take away that dogs control.... period. Trust me, a well bred Havanese will manipulate people to get what it wants and that includes growling to do it. If it gets the reaction it wants, dont you think it will do it again. Why do I tell you to bang on the top of the crate when it makes a sound when you are crate trining it. Because it doesnt like it and will quickly associate its whine with the bang and it WILL stop. THey do not speak English... they hear...lalalalalalalalallalalalal Jinx good boy....lalalalalallalala jinx no growl or they can just hear lalalallalalallalalalalallalalalallalallal honey....lallalalalalalalalallalalal if you baby them too much.

YOu can take an outgoing confident puppy and turn it shy.... trust me I have seen it a thousand times.... Ivy has specific instructions on socializing, crate training, and growling... if she follows them she will get the puppy she so wants him to grow up to be, but one deviation or lack of follow through will yield her a dog that she doesnt desire.

The problem with lists like this, is you fail to realize your breeders have raised tons of puppies and if you want the dog you met at the dog show or their house.... throw some of your books away, quit throwing money at trainers (I can take an online course and call myself a dog trainer for a couple hundred dollars), quit requesting so many opinions and just call your breeder... They know their puppies, parents, grandparents, great grandparents and have had much experience raising succesful babies that will succeed in life. Breeders like me call this proper socialization and we live what we preach.

At anyrate.... keep talking softly, keep rewarding bad behavior and the puppy will have successfully trained YOU just like many kids train their parents.


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## FancyNancy (Oct 7, 2009)

Wow! I feel like we ALL just got picked up our scruffs and shaken! Asking questions and listening to the experience and knowledge of our fellow Havanese owners is what the forum is all about. I, for one, have gained so much from the experience and "here's what worked for me" stuff that forumites are generous enough to share. Reading books, finding trainers who can teach us to teach our dogs, asking for help - all those seem like GOOD things to me. As far as training methods go, there are clearly two schools of thought here. I assume that some dogs respond best to soft words and encouragement and others might need a stronger hand. Some PEOPLE are just not scruff shakers and others are. That's what makes the world go round. What I disagree with is the attitude that there is ONE answer for everyone and that the breeder - and no one else - knows what will work best for you or your dog.


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## myyuppypuppy (Oct 4, 2007)

Who said to shake the dog? The point was to get control. Look him in the eye..fans tell him what u mean. Concisely. No growl. They do not speak English or Spanish or any other language. They learn words, not sentences. Babying kids doesn't work and it doesn't work in dogs. Advice is fine, however, a persos breeder should always be the first point of contact. Doing the same thing the breeder did is usually more effective and causes ess confusion and stress. But again, some of us truly r experts in this breed and if read the breed standard it clearly states it s. small sturdy dog of immense charm that can take care of itself. Have you ever seen two haves fight? I have. And most breeders have. We do not tolerate the crap. Yes sometimes growling is appropriate- a warning. But most of the time not. It s a Havanese being a bully. And by goodness they do bully if they can. I don't like it in kids or dogs and I don't tolerate it and neither should my owners. Again a well bred Havanese is going to be way too smart, , way to manipulative, way to cute and charming, and extremely confident. If not taught boundaries from the get go, it will also run the house and when it says jump you I'll say how high. And I am not kidding. My best advice to any Havanese owner is to teach it to be confident and extremely socialized in any environment, that change is good, and that there r boundaries they r not allowed to cross - biting and growling. Ad if they do this does require an IMMEDIATE strong reaction from the owner. Think of it as your child shoplifting or darting across the road or your child hitting someone. Is, not your reaction immediate and strong. A very different reaction than to you child not cleaning his room. Or not doing his homework. 

I am not bashing the list, I just think the owner should let the breeder have a bit of input as the breeders knows their dogs, puppies and no doubt has seen and heard it, all before.


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## Lizzie'sMom (Oct 13, 2010)

myyuppypuppy said:


> Who said to shake the dog? The point was to get control. Look him in the eye..fans tell him what u mean. Concisely. No growl. They do not speak English or Spanish or any other language. They learn words, not sentences. Babying kids doesn't work and it doesn't work in dogs. Advice is fine, however, a persos breeder should always be the first point of contact. Doing the same thing the breeder did is usually more effective and causes ess confusion and stress. But again, some of us truly r experts in this breed and if read the breed standard it clearly states it s. small sturdy dog of immense charm that can take care of itself. Have you ever seen two haves fight? I have. And most breeders have. We do not tolerate the crap. Yes sometimes growling is appropriate- a warning. But most of the time not. It s a Havanese being a bully. And by goodness they do bully if they can. I don't like it in kids or dogs and I don't tolerate it and neither should my owners. Again a well bred Havanese is going to be way too smart, , way to manipulative, way to cute and charming, and extremely confident. If not taught boundaries from the get go, it will also run the house and when it says jump you I'll say how high. And I am not kidding. My best advice to any Havanese owner is to teach it to be confident and extremely socialized in any environment, that change is good, and that there r boundaries they r not allowed to cross - biting and growling. Ad if they do this does require an IMMEDIATE strong reaction from the owner. Think of it as your child shoplifting or darting across the road or your child hitting someone. Is, not your reaction immediate and strong. A very different reaction than to you child not cleaning his room. Or not doing his homework.
> 
> I am not bashing the list, I just think the owner should let the breeder have a bit of input as the breeders knows their dogs, puppies and no doubt has seen and heard it, all before.


You have given me some great advice in this post. My Lizzie is a bully to two of my cats. The other two put her in her place, but the two who haven't she bullies.


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

Janet.
It is refreshing to hear what you have to say. I didn't take it that you were bashing anyone here, just giving your advice based on your years of experience raising and training Havs.
I personally use positive training with my dogs, and I also use a sharp voice when I feel the need which is rare because they are so sweet. I wouldn't hesitate to use a time out if I felt it was needed. My dogs are well behaved and extremely loving and loved. I think having a structured routine helps.

I am glad that you contribute to this forum. I know that many will not agree with some of your ideas, but there is always room for opposing views.
thanks!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

myyuppypuppy said:


> I don't agree with any of you. Pick him up by the scruff of his neck as I showed you. Lifting him off the ground tell him very firmly while looking him directly in the eye. "no growl". Then say time out and he goes in his xpen. I do not tolerate this behavior and if you nip this now it is over. All three of you r top dogs. If he thinks Alec is afraid of him it is hard to nip. I will be up there in a couple of weeks. Let me teach Alec how to get control. Ps. Look under hints and tips in your book.


Sorry I don't have more time to respond to this. But you are totally wrong with this approach. I know hundreds of dog trainers and not one of them would agree with you. This approach will cause more harm than good. Do some serious research on "punishing growls" you'll find that this is not the way to go. Here's two to start, if you want more, just look. http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/why-growl-good

http://www.4pawsu.com/k9myths.html see Myth no. 9


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

myyuppypuppy said:


> Who said to shake the dog? The point was to get control. Look him in the eye..fans tell him what u mean. Concisely. No growl. They do not speak English or Spanish or any other language. They learn words, not sentences. Babying kids doesn't work and it doesn't work in dogs. Advice is fine, however, a persos breeder should always be the first point of contact. Doing the same thing the breeder did is usually more effective and causes ess confusion and stress. But again, some of us truly r experts in this breed and if read the breed standard it clearly states it s. small sturdy dog of immense charm that can take care of itself. Have you ever seen two haves fight? I have. And most breeders have. We do not tolerate the crap. Yes sometimes growling is appropriate- a warning. But most of the time not. It s a Havanese being a bully. And by goodness they do bully if they can. I don't like it in kids or dogs and I don't tolerate it and neither should my owners. Again a well bred Havanese is going to be way too smart, , way to manipulative, way to cute and charming, and extremely confident. If not taught boundaries from the get go, it will also run the house and when it says jump you I'll say how high. And I am not kidding. My best advice to any Havanese owner is to teach it to be confident and extremely socialized in any environment, that change is good, and that there r boundaries they r not allowed to cross - biting and growling. Ad if they do this does require an IMMEDIATE strong reaction from the owner. Think of it as your child shoplifting or darting across the road or your child hitting someone. Is, not your reaction immediate and strong. A very different reaction than to you child not cleaning his room. Or not doing his homework.
> 
> I am not bashing the list, I just think the owner should let the breeder have a bit of input as the breeders knows their dogs, puppies and no doubt has seen and heard it, all before.


You have no comprehension of dog training . This is not how to solve dog problems. Behaviour modification does not work this way. Punishment based training is going the way of the dinosaur , but I don't think you're aware of it. Staring your dog in the eyes will invoke fear in your dog. Fear of you. Nothing wrong with asking your breeder for help but I'm not going to endorse what you seem to be saying.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

myyuppypuppy said:


> who writes those books you speak of.... people just like me.. LOL
> 
> anyway... you have never been to my house.. you have never met my dogs... however those that have, absolutely know I do not Tolerate that type of behavior with Humans and nip it in the bud so to speak. I am the top dog and ALWAYS will be... My dogs are the most social, funny, love everybody, everything havenese you will ever meet in ANY enviroment. They do NOT gain confidence from each other, or their home, or from me. They are ALL taught self confidence and that they are able to handle themselves anywhere, anytime, anyday. They are taught change is good and that they are loved no matter what. They also know that NO means NO and Enough means Enough.
> 
> ...


What nonsense. You have a very arrogant attitude, knowing how to breed puppies does not make you an expert on animal behavior. And I can tell in these few posts, that you know very little about dog behavior . Bashing trainers in general is just an indication of your ignorance.


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## myyuppypuppy (Oct 4, 2007)

davetgabby said:


> What nonsense. You have a very arrogant attitude, knowing how to breed puppies does not make you an expert on animal behavior. And I can tell in these few posts, that you know very little about dog behavior . Bashing trainers in general is just an indication of your ignorance.


I gave my opinion.. based on this puppy. I never bashed trainers ( I stated the truth - do you want me to share some links on school, certifications and etc.)

Not once did anyone ask about History.... So let me share what I know.....

Did you know he came from a litter of 8 and was the smallest at birth. Do you understand how such a large litter effects puppy behavior? Just how many puppies have you raised? How many litters of 1, 4, 6 or 8 to understand all the little things about what happens in the early weeks/months, how much the size of the litter or the mother herself effects the puppies. This puppy has fought and growled for everything he wanted since the get go... within his own pack, this is normal and ok, however with humans it is not ok... He sees ALec as a sibling(dog) more as an equal than above him... Kind of goes with the 2 kids thing.. and one sibling saying to the other "You cant make me your not my boss" absolutely true in a sibling relationship... however not true in his human/dog relationship. I want this to end. I certainly understand puppies and puppy behavior... do realize I raised that puppy for the first 9 weeks, Ivy has had him for 3. I know all about his early, mid and late weeks here. I know my housekeeper babied him and carried him around and protected him as he was her favorite, I also understand how this effects him. I also know I bottle fed him from Day 1 and willed him to live, so he is incredible with human touch. I taught him to give kisses, gave his first bath, taught him to get his nails cut, and let him scream through the blow dryer not giving in. So dont think for a minute I dont know my own puppies well enough to know how to nip puppy behavior in the bud.... this is not "rescue" animal, abused or mistreated. It is a 12 week old puppy who has to learn his boundaries and right from wrong. For Example, From me he has been taught yanking on his tails and ears is a "normal" behavior..... I did it too him since he was young... so that he believes everyone does it... he can be hung upside down and be ok with it... on his back, and held high in the air, like an airplane now interpret it.... when a little one visits him and grabs him by his tail... Ivy doesnt have to worry he will bite.... or a kid yanks on the ears (my son has two large scars on his neck from a dog biting him after his pulled on his ears.) Again, but if Ivy continues to teach this is normal, she doesnt need to worry about that happening... Puppies know what they are taught.... They dont miss what they dont know... so ask my teachers on this forum why I have them take a puppy in the school year and not on summer break. I am absolutely no expert on adult dog behavior, but I know an awful lot about puppy behavior.....and I know this breed way to well. However I am done on this list... my owners will need to email me directly for help or opinions.


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## myyuppypuppy (Oct 4, 2007)

davetgabby said:


> You have no comprehension of dog training . This is not how to solve dog problems. Behaviour modification does not work this way. Punishment based training is going the way of the dinosaur , but I don't think you're aware of it. Staring your dog in the eyes will invoke fear in your dog. Fear of you. Nothing wrong with asking your breeder for help but I'm not going to endorse what you seem to be saying.


You may want to ask the bunches of people who have been to my home or seen me interact with my dogs if they "fear" me... I dont think you will get a single one to say that.... just the opposite... however my dogs respect me and I respect them and accept them for who they are as individuals and every single one of my dogs have individual personalities of who I can tell you all about them... their favorite toys, best friend, favorite foods, bad habits, good habits and etc.


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

myyuppypuppy said:


> I gave my opinion.. based on this puppy. I never bashed trainers ( I stated the truth - do you want me to share some links on school, certifications and etc.)


Yes; please do.



myyuppypuppy said:


> However I am done on this list... my owners will need to email me directly for help or opinions.


I hope you'll stay long enough to share the links. And say what their significance is to you.

The posts you wrote today were largely written with a hot-button turned on, because often, the logic wasn't present that I would have expected. It's difficult to respond to a post written in heat (no pun intended).

I have many concerns about some of what you've posted today. My concerns arise from my long experience with a variety of dogs, and my work done to aid dogs and their humans when others have made mistakes with dogs of the same sort I made in my earlier years, with sometimes harmful results for the dogs.

I learned first with my own, doing a lot of study to find out what is most likely to give a dog (and its human) a boost of the sort needed by the dog (and the human).

I hope you'll stay for at least a while, because I intend to respond to some of what you posted - admittedly, heatedly, so I don't know how much of it you really meant. But I won't be doing that tonight; it's already past my bedtime, and Camellia and I have had a long day.

What I'll be responding to - partly because I'm not sure you meant it the way it looked - was some remarks - verbal pictures you painted of some of what "positive trainers" do. They were inaccurate pictures, and could easily scare somebody off even looking at some of the links posted, for instance, the ones I posted, and the ones Dave posted.

Also, I'm curious and interested to know what impulses or opinions of yours prevents you from looking at such links and maybe taking them even a little bit seriously.

I was very happy that Alec overcame the problem with Jinx growling when Alec approached. The technique I suggested worked to remedy that.

And I'm also concerned about practices such as pulling tails and ears to show a puppy who is boss; I gather that was your intent? to show who is boss?

Lots of unanswered questions here.

At least one of the links I posted today gives lots of detail on working with dogs, all of it salient, including for young puppies. (Links to Jolanta Benal's site, for instance.) Some of what you do almost looks like Carmen Battaglia's Early Neurological Stimulation, which some people believe in doing; I personally don't think it's any use, because a good breeder is handling pups daily anyway. On the other hand, what you described didn't really match what Battaglia wrote, either.

Tue, 27 Mar 2012 21:58:58 (PDT)

MUMMY! It's past bedtime! (00)

Oh; you're right, Camellia; thanks for reminding me! ;-^

(Part of Camellia's job as my dog is to help me stay on a reasonable schedule, as I need to do that both for her sake and mine.)

BIG WINK!


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Caro;l -

The tail and ear tugging Janet referred too was just sort of de-sensitizing so the puppy wouldn't freak and bite back if placed in a home with small children.

Janet - I didn't go around you seeking advice. I have used this board for five years to get a variety of opinions on lots of different topics.


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## myyuppypuppy (Oct 4, 2007)

CarolWCamelo said:


> Yes; please do.
> 
> I hope you'll stay long enough to share the links. And say what their significance is to you.
> 
> ...


I certainly didnt bash your techniques, I stated I disagreed as a breeder. However you have been downrite mean to me.... and purposely twisted my words and added what you wanted me to say. However I wont play that game... Because right now I feel as if I have to defend myself and I really shouldnt need to....

Here are some links to understanding "professional Dog Trainers" and their "certifications" NOT all are created equal..... Sort of like AKC VS APRI, CKC, and etc. Certifications....

But look I can become a certified Dog trainer in just 3 weeks....

http://www.tlck9academy.com/dog-trainer-school.php

Or I can just do it online..... how convenient...

http://www.onlineschools.org/online-dog-training-certificate-programs/

Better yet, I will just open up my own franchise.... all I have to do is go to their school and they will give me a certificate and I can open a franchise....

http://www.sitmeanssit.com/

Does everyone know there is NO regulation in this industry? There are NO required cerficates or Licensure. You do NOT have to be certified, take specific training and etc. Anyone can call themselves a dog trainer... Here is an article understanding all the letters behind the name.... some of those letters you just pay money for... and some are certainly better than others and their is a gold standard in the industry.

www.apdt.com/petowners/choose/certifications.aspx

So, what I, as a breeder, understand is that most of my owners dont understand this industry either, dont necessarily know how to find a "good" trainer. There are a few I recommend, however I am a believer in basic obedience at your Local obedience club, which is usually an AKC sanctioned club full of people who actively compete in the sport.

So, to sum up my beliefs..... 
*
I BELIEVE IN COMMON SENSE TRAINING FOR BOTH PUPPIES AND KIDS!!​*
1. Teach them boundaries
2. Get them in a routine (but then vary it often so they become flexible and changeable - that change is ok) - So take them everywhere, but not neccesarily everyday. This way they learn to be left alone. 
3. Teach them to entertain themselves and play quietly and nicely by themselves. Dont let kids in their xpens. 
4. Dont allow growling or snarling. React quickly and concisely and strongly. 
5. Use timeouts and dont punish after the fact. 
6. Gently let them know you are the boss. Dont give in... because when you do, whatever behavior they were doing for 10 minutes before you gave in, the next time will be 1 hrs, then 6 hrs.
7. Expose them to everything. Everywhere, Everynoise... 
8. Teach them to be independent and confident. Teach them they are strong, lovable, and can endure any situation no matter what or who is with them. Have everyone hold them and you walk away for a bit and then come back... Goes right back to the confidence building. 
9. Havanese work for food. Use lots of it. Chicken is always good. (this is positive training. right)
10. Havanese are NOT trustworthy off a lead, because they love everything and everybody a little too much and therefore will dart. 
11. I believe in crate training and wee pad training.. I like a dual trained puppy.... Traveling and life is much easier this way and they are certainly smart enough to learn both. 
12. I hate flex leads...they will kill your dog.... they dont fit around your wrist and if you trip and fall you naturally open your hand to break your fall, therefore dropping the flex lead and your dog is spooked and takes off and now gets hit by a car.... Seen it happen way more than once. 
13. Dont baby them... keep tugging tails, pulling ears, laying on back, playing with face and feet. (and this has nothing to do with control) They are a rough and tumble breed that likes to wrestle and play hard... and then hold them like a baby and give them kisses and hugs... Its ok for a Dad should play tug, not kids... also helps get out baby teeth. 
14. Take them to basic obedience more for the experience than anything else... but wait till they have had all their shots.after 16 weeks. 
15. Stay away from Dog parks until they are at least 9 months old, go to the mall instead or starbucks, sonics, bed bath and beyond, lowes, home depot,and etc.
16. Some behaviors it is best just not to respond too(ignore)... ie screaming, others = growling, need to be Nipped in the bud before they have a chance to escalate.
17. Where socks and shoes in the house... . ie = puppy cant bite toes as easily.
18. Dont let a puppy nibble on your face, nose, hair and etc. redirect... give a toy or a bone instead.
19. Dont allow puppy to crawl all over your head (dont put head on the floor) - you are teaching him to jump at your face and head.
20. Dont wriggle your fingers on the floor (just teaching him to pounce and bite)
21. Dont run in the house with him chancing you.
22. Make up your own common sense rules and be consistent, consistent, consistent, consistent...and more consistent.

With this approach.... you will probably never need a "professional" behavorist or trainer as you will have raised a well rounded puppy that enjoys living life immensely and just wants to please. Just like the ones you met or would meet at my house or at the dog show I had....

That really is my training philosophy in a nutshell.... it works and it makes perfect sense..... not much different then raising a well rounded child that grows up to be successful because you give them the tools they need to spread their wings and soar.... This is the same thing you are to be doing for your puppy... Teaching him the tools to be succesful and happy.

I really am signing off....just dont have time for these lists... my number is on my website if anyone needs to talk.......and do remember there are many ways to do things... and many things that work....


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

*Kaleidoscopic visions*

Janet - thanks for responding. I continue to hope you won't actually leave us; maybe you'll stay long enough, at least, to read some replies.

You and I have something in common, which can make it difficult to sort things out at times.

That is, I think we both have a kind of kaleidoscopic vision - we look around, lots of places, many with great differences, many with some similarities. In short, we try to collect heaps and heaps of information. Doing that, before we begin any real study, easily results in our seeing as though we were looking through a kaleidoscope. There are many things, many patterns, but - where we run into conflicting ones, which make sense, and which don't?

I call my way of starting out being completely greedy for knowledge.

There, perhaps, our paths part, because I'm not trying to apply kaleidoscopic visions to what I'm doing in life. I have to go further, and begin sorting things out, till real patterns - facts - become visible, and from there, I still have a lot of homework to do - trying out, testing, checking, till I find some kind of useful reality.

But - I suspect your hot-button is still burning as hot as ever, since you accuse us (including me) of being mean to you.

It's not mean to disagree. It's perfectly possible to disagree civilly, and even to agree to disagree.

http://www.coherentdog.org/tidberries1.php

That page has a link to a site on logical fallacies. The articles there are written with humor - yet carefully.

About the links you provided: I followed each of them. Some were already familiar to me. That 3-week or 1-week or 2-day course to become a dog-trainer provoked in me a great hilarity! Look at the COSTS to the student - and the promises - you can earn $100, 000.00 in a year. Yeah, riiiiiight. And you could even do that just taking the (extremely expensive) two-day course.

I gather you don't believe a word of that stuff; neither do I.

There's a solution to this difficulty, which is to follow pieces of the kaleidoscopic pattern with care - one at a time. Of course, that takes a lot of time and study.

Now, about the other content in your reply; you have some good stuff in there (in my personal opinion), and it's also mixed with stuff that arises from false premises, making the results invalid.

Proof of the pudding lies in the dog - lifelong. We can only hope that all dogs on Earth should be well-bred and healthy - and be raised with understanding of the creature who IS a dog.

I detect a number of fallacies in your list of what should be done with and to puppies - that is, with the results you expect from your ways of raising puppies. I don't really need to post details, because they are largely contained in links such as one I pointed to yesterday; namely:

http://dogtrainer.quickanddirtytips.com/

Reading widely on that site gives us excellent information. Some details might vary from one competent dog-trainer / behavior counselor to another, but the essence of what is on that site is safely useful. When I say safely, I mean, safely for the dog and the humans.

I won't go into detail here and now about a couple of things you say you do that results in my feeling personally as though somebody had applied the highest level of shock from a shock collar to me.

There are many other useful links besides the one I just re-posted. The APDT list of certifications (to which you posted a link in your just-previous post) is useful, partly because it explains something about how certification can come about, which in turn suggests the value, or usefulness (or uselessness) of those certifications. Work on certifications in North America is only a couple of decades old. Work was done earlier than that, somewhat, in the UK; primarily, Britain.

I hope if you still feel the need to leave us, you'll consider coming back sometime, and that in the meantime, you can take advantage of following a link or two from what I've posted in this thread.

I'll finish this post with a few more remarks. You understand, I assume, that these are my personal opinions - but they are widely supported among today's competent dog-trainers and behavior counselors - and other dog-professionals as well.

1) Many breeders won't place young puppies in families with children much under six or seven. Those who do, if they are responsible, check to make sure the parents will protect the puppy from toddlers, and others too young to understand how to handle a puppy.

2) It IS the human adult's responsibility to see that the puppy stays safe and healthy. Which means, they need to manage a puppy well enough to PREVENT having young children (or anyone else) pull tails or drag puppies around by the ears. Same as a good parent manages a child so the child cannot run out into the street.

3) Just to clear up one error in what you posted, I think in your first post to this thread: your suggestion that positive dog-trainers reward dogs (puppies included) for bad behaviors may apply among uneducated people who call themselves dog-trainers. It does NOT apply to any truly competent dog-trainer. Same goes for parents of human children. Proper management (read: care) includes seeing to the safety of dogs - and children - FIRST.

To elaborate just a bit: training with food (so glad to see you do that too) - the dog EARNS the food before it is delivered. Training is done with care, so as to ensure the dog understands what is being asked for, and so that the dog can properly associate the reward with the behavior just completed. Within half a second or so.

So, to finish off; assuming you really are leaving, I wish you and your dogs and puppies - and your puppy-owners - well.

And I continue to invite you to share my way of dealing with kaleidoscopes. In short, putting in sufficient study of those parts and patterns, before settling on a particular way of doing things.

P.S. If you find this mean, I have no control over your feelings; sorry. To me, it's simple disagreement on many details, and, here and there, some agreement.

Godspeed to you and your dogs and owners.
Wed, 28 Mar 2012 09:08:17 (PDT)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dear Janet,

I waited until today to respond for two reasons. First because yesterday was a very busy day, and also because some of what you said, and the tone with which you started your entry into the conversation, hit some of MY "hot buttons". I did not want to respond in kind, but with a fair, measured response. 

I do not know you personally, but I know enough of your puppy owners to respect you as a breeder. I have yet to met anyone who has been less than totally happy with a puppy they have gotten from you. I believe you are a good breeder. But there is no "certification" for dog breeders, either. Any fool with a male and female dog can just "let nature take its course". We know all too well on this list that even among those who PRESENT themselves as "reputable" breeders, there are MANY "back yard" breeders with questionable practices and even some puppy mill brokers who are very good at pulling in the unsuspecting. 

Purchasing a puppy requires a "buyer beware" attitude, and the SAME should be true when choosing a trainer. You are absolutely right that there are people out there who call themselves "professional trainers" that I wouldn't allow NEAR my dog. This is true in the horse world too. There is no formal licensing of horse trainers, and there are good ones and bad ones out there. It is up to each horse owner to decide if a specific trainer has the experience, or is the right match for their horse. (and we are talking about animals whose value often STARTS at 10 times the cost of a top Havanese puppy, so you'd better get it right or you are wasting a WHOLE lot of money!)

I think you are doing your puppy owners a disservice by sending them the message that trainers are not worth using. I think you'd be doing them a much GREATER service counseling them how to find a GOOD trainer... just as we, on this list, try to help prospective puppy buyers choose GOOD breeders. Don't we all just want what's best for the dogs in this amazing breed? CERTAINLY your breeder is a valuable resource. I have developed a wonderful friendship with mine, and she has been a fantastic resource when I've needed advice from time to time. But the fact is, once a puppy leaves you, YOU AREN'T THERE to see the specific dynamics of a situation. Neither are we on this forum, which is why it often makes sense to have people consider a GOOD local trainer to watch what's going on and help them come up with a solution.

There are many things on your "common sense" list that I agree with, some that I disagree with completely, and some that I think can/should be modified based on specific situations. But I think you and those of us who believe in modern, scientifically based, positive training methods have more to agree about than not.

I can also tell you from personal experience, that a puppy does NOT need to be handled harshly (and I use that word with caution, since I think that you and several of us have different opinions on whether some of your methods are "harsh") to become a totally reliable, confident, outgoing, friendly, WELL BEHAVED, WELL TRAINED dog. 

Kodi has NEVER been handled the way you suggest for your puppies, and he is not only a delight that makes everyone he meets want a dog "just like him", but he performs joyfully in Formal Obedience, Rally and Agility. He is as comfortable (and polite and reliable) staying the night in a hotel room or our RV as he is within our home and community. As you mention on your list, he LOVES going anywhere I allow him to accompany me, but is also perfectly willing to stay home if he can't come. A simple "Wait" cue as he approaches a door is enough for him to know that he is not to move forward until/unless given an "OK" cue. ...And he has learned all this with ZERO harsh corrections, using reward-based training (largely, but not always clicker training) and negative punishment. (the withdrawal or withholding of something pleasurable)

I'm not saying your methods don't work. Just like dogs, we don't continue to engage in behaviors that do not give us the result we want. What I AM asking you to consider is that there might be other, equally effective ways of training a dog to be a solid citizen, NOT a "spoiled brat", using positive training methods.

Finally, as far as small children and dogs (or any other animal) are concerned, as a parent who raised two boys on a farm, where there was a very real potential for SERIOUS injury to children who did not learn to behave properly around animals, I always made it MY responsibility to make sure that children on my property, whether they were my children, visitors or students (I taught riding for many years) handled our animals kindly and gently. Part of that was teaching the children never to put an animal in a position where they felt the need to defend themselves. It's not fair to the animal or safe for the child.

My sons are grown now, and although I don't have grandchildren, (or expect them any time soon!:biggrin1 as a young dog, it is probable that Kodi will still be a part of our lives when grandchildren DO come along. For this reason, (as well as the fact that it's just good training!) I make sure that Kodi continues to be exposed to small children at every opportunity. But I also use HIM as a teaching tool for those children. I teach the children how to approach a dog safely and quietly, what dogs like and don't like in terms of how they are handled, etc. I would NEVER purposely ask Kodi to tolerate anyone pulling on his ears or tail. I do know from some accidental tail-stepping-on that his only reaction is to yelp and pull away. I find that a PERFECTLY acceptable reaction. 

Kodi DID go though a puppyhood stage of growling at people when guarding a toy or "contraband". It took time and patience, but he learned to "drop it" on cue, no matter what he had in his mouth. Once he understood that cue, there was no more growling, because he had LEARNED the proper behavior.

So, like Carol, I hope you stay around. I find the input of the good breeders on this forum extremely valuable. But I ask you to ALSO consider that some of us may also have something of value AND experience to add to conversations. Who knows? With an open mind, you might pick up a tidbit or two that is useful to you also!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Janet, just in case you haven't left yet, I will keep it brief. You have a very adversarial approach to your training and to anyone who offers you advice. To call people like Carol cruel really shows how unwilling you are to even listen to advice. Carol has been very polite and eager to help you. Shame. The following statements by you indicate that you really haven't learned anything from the good trainers and writers that are out there. Yes there are trainers that shouldn't be training, but that's no reason not to educate yourself by the ones that are good. Here are your words which indicate to me that you really haven't learned anything from the good trainers. 

"I don't agree with any of you. Pick him up by the scruff of his neck as I showed you. Lifting him off the ground tell him very firmly while looking him directly in the eye. "no growl". Then say time out and he goes in his xpen. I do not tolerate this behavior and if you nip this now it is over. All three of you r top dogs. If he thinks Alec is afraid of him it is hard to nip. Let me teach Alec how to get control. Just don't forget who raised him ... As you know that puppy can be dragged around by his ears and tail and never respond. I don't baby them to the point they become sissy little brats. I make them strong and confident and able to tackle the world. Keep them that way and make him know that he is not in charge ever.
I dont think Alec should reprimand Jinx, however Ivy and her husband sure as hell should.
Yes sometimes growling is appropriate- a warning. But most of the time not.
He sees ALec as a sibling(dog) more as an equal than above him.." end of your quotes.

The above statements by you are real red flags to nearly all trainers. But it's your attitude that really is a problem. You virtually are chastizing Ivy for even talking with us. And please don't preach to me about trainers. I study the training profession. I know there are bad ones but that is no different than any other profession. If you really want to learn , learn to find the good ones. Dog training has come a long way, and it seems that your methods are not in touch with the methods that most of us here are trying to endorse.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Another thing that has been niggling at me all day is Janet's idea that it's good to pull a puppy's ears and tail and/or to rough them up to "get them used to it" in case a child ever does this. 

When I thought about it, this seems to be like smacking your teenage daughter around so that she will be able to "take it" when she marries an abusive husband.

I think we have a responsibility to protect our dogs from abuse, even if it is unintentional abuse from small children.


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

krandall said:


> Another thing that has been niggling at me all day is Janet's idea that it's good to pull a puppy's ears and tail and/or to rough them up to "get them used to it" in case a child ever does this.
> 
> When I thought about it, this seems to be like smacking your teenage daughter around so that she will be able to "take it" when she marries an abusive husband.
> 
> I think we have a responsibility to protect our dogs from abuse, even if it is unintentional abuse from small children.


Wow; a useful analogy, Karen! Very scary thoughts here! I've been trying to sort out my kaleidoscopic thoughts for years, and a lot of my sortings are in the "Old Home" portion of my web site.

Here's some stuff I wrote a few years ago:

http://www.coherentdog.org/arc2006/articles.htm#realneeds

I'm sitting there now - haven't looked there for some time - and I encourage anyone to scroll down and read the rest of the page, too.

One more link, to an article I haven't re-read for a long time (but I just did, and though that was years ago, I still believe in the same way).

http://www.coherentdog.org/arc2006/popcans.htm

There's another link at the bottom of that page - oh; my doGNess! Kumbi died 8 June, 2010, of cancer (and Kwali had died already on 3 November, 2009) - how I miss those dogs! There are links to their memorials on my home page (which is in my signature).

Dogs are so wonderful! Camellia is rather tired today, after a three-hour grooming session yesterday, so I'm letting her rest, but of course, we had to have a walk this morning, and of course, it started to rain while we were out, and both of us got a bit wet. So I dried Camellia gently with a towel. She's resting contentedly. We had a tiny clicker-session just before her supper. She needed the interest - only for a minute or so!

Wed, 28 Mar 2012 20:00:35 (PDT)


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