# Hi breeders!



## HayCarambaMama (Dec 8, 2007)

First, if you don't already know, I'm an OB nurse, so I think that's why I'd love to hear what it's like to whelp your Havanese. Do you do it yourselves? Is it great?
Thanks!


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

LOL Donna I was just thinking about this today as well. I was wondering the excitemnt the breeders feel as each puppy comes out wondering what he or she will look like, what color, what type of markings. I know it is scary and I'm sure they are more concerned with the health and well being of the puppy and mother but it just sounds so exciting to me.

I will admit, some of you know how crazy I am with puppies, I once asked my breeder for pictures during the birth LOL


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## HayCarambaMama (Dec 8, 2007)

I am so glad I am not the only one! LOL! When you have a pregnant mama, a breeder must be so nervous wondering when labor will start! With all these new puppies, I was wondering if the breeders would like to share about their experience.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Thankfully, there are usually a series of signs that you have so you can know when labor will begin. I was able to relax for most of this week when I realized that one of my girls wasn't nearly as far along as I had thought she was. Yesterday morning, she finally gave me the first signs, and I told a couple of people that I knew we'd be expecting puppies in 24 hours. Sure enough, that part didn't fail. 

A drastic drop in temperature has been my first sign (although some breeders don't see this in Havanese all the time), a refusal to eat, digging in bedding and trying to create a nest, and heavy panting all come to mind. Those are the four signs that let me know it is time to be ready. In addition, if you have done progesterone testing, you can tell the exact day of ovulation and dogs are pretty predictable for going into whelp at a certain date after that. 

As of this morning, I have only whelped five Havanese litters. Every whelping has been different for me. There always seems to be one or two moments of huge stress and worry, and an amazing amount of relief to see some healthy, squirmy, twitchy puppies all nursing and snuggling with their mother.

Two different times, it was so incredibly stressful and a puppy was stuck long enough that I just knew the puppy was a goner and I was doing all I could to save the mother. Both times, I was wrong and the puppy was just fine. Piaget was one of them. He was such a big puppy and she had difficulty pushing him and I was tugging away at that body just sure I was going to injure her or harm him if he was alive. Both were fine for it.

I think I've had my emergency vet's number dialed for 3 out of 5 of the litters and then as the situation was being explained, I would yell, "We've got it - thanks!" and have to hang up. I think the emergency vet has been our magic trick a couple of times. (Not really, but you know what I mean.)

This morning's whelping was my hardest physically, but definitely my easiest overall. I stayed up last night knowing puppy arrival was eminent, and hard labor signs did start shortly after midnight, but the first puppy wasn't born until nearly 7am. By 8am, five puppies (one of which was a surprise) had been born by practically falling out with one push. Each one was still in the sac and ready for attention. I was running on adrenaline because that is barely enough time to clean, weigh and examine each pup before the next one was out. By noon today I was in dire need of a quick nap.

I don't even know if I answered what you were asking. It's just very fresh on my mind today.


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## CacheHavs (Aug 2, 2007)

I can only speak for myself, but I feel that most feelings may be mutual. For me I worry more about my girl. I hope that I never have to call my vet at 2 or 3 in the morning due to complication with the birthing. 

My one girl in her last two litters I had to pull 50% of the pups because they were coming out breach. This is when I feel a slight panic sensation come over me, then I slap myself and realize that I need to kick into gear and help out so that I don't lose my puppy or the mother. After that I keep praying that the next one will come out head first and no problems After the pup is out safely then that is when I help clean it and of course check all the essentials:biggrin1: 

I always for warned my vet that she may be getting a call, but thus far I have only had to take a girl in to the vet for a c-section and that was about 15 years ago. So I consider myself very lucky


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Heather, I've always been afraid of a breech puppy. I've had many that are feet first, but not breech yet. That would freak me out.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

We have puppies so we can have puppies.


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

> We have puppies so we can have puppies.


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## HayCarambaMama (Dec 8, 2007)

Heather and Kimberly, WOW, really cool stories! And, Kimberly, I'm glad you wrote all that down while it's fresh in your head -- all those pretty puppies in your house -- woo-hooo! What a party of fruit! LOL.
Now, when a baby is breech, it means head up/feet down. What's the difference with breech puppies? In human babies you have different breech positions, but they are all "breech": i.e. footling (foot born first), frank (butt first), etc.
Heather, a C-section! Wow! How did you know mom needed that? Was it an emergency?


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

I have had both wonderful whelpings and a heartbreaking whelping. Of course I am nervous, anxious and excited all at the same time. My first litter was by far my easiest. Those puppies just "slid" out and momma knew just what to do. They were good sized and came out kicking and screaming! I thought to my self "no problem, this was easy!" Ha!
My second litter I wasn't here when the first was born (hubby was here and I was on my way home)~ I was here about 2 min after she was born and she wasn't breathing well at all. It took lots of work and even a little puppy cpr to get her really going. I thought we were going to lose her. My 3rd litter was my heartbreak litter. 2 stillborn puppies is enough to make you rethink being a breeder. I was devistated. But after all the tears I do have my Heidi to show off! After that litter of course I was a nervous wreck thru Emmy's entire next pregnancy. She sailed thru it and had a smooth delivery and healthy puppies!


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## brandy (Jun 12, 2007)

I have been a Veterinary Nurse for many years and have assisted with a lot of deliveries and I can tell you there is nothing like delivering your own grandbabies. It also doesnt get any easier at least for me. It's always unpredictable and scarry and of course exciting. I have only had one easy delivery with absolutely no problems at all. My first litter breeding Havanese it was my girls first litter also. She pushed out one feet first and it got stuck. I dont know how descriptive I should be here but if you have a faint heart you probably shouldnt read this but I think it's good for people to know who think dogs can do things on their own and that breeding dogs is easy or easy money. So...she pushed out the first one feet first and it was stuck. It was still alive with little feet wiggling and struggling to breath. It was a big puppy. As hard as i tried I couldnt pull it out but I had to make a choice of possibly killing the puppy by pulling to hard or loose mom and the whole litter. Hubby wasnt helping much panicing that I was going to hurt the pup or mom. UGGG The puppy finally came out but wasnt breathing. I started CPR and immediately the next puppy came and d*** if it wasnt the exact same situation. I passed the one puppy off to my husband, who really cant handle much, but to his credit is getting better, for him to do the CPR so I could work on the next puppy. Same thing happend and when finally out it wasnt breathing also. I said "that's it! load everyone up!" I worked on both puppies while hubby loaded the dog and the kids in wee hours of the morning for a trip to the emergency clinic. I had to go by myself because hubby had to go to work! So off to the vets with a car full. I knew I had to hurry because she was having the pups back to back and was pregnant with 5. She started working on the next one in the front seat OMG! Not yet!!!and all I could do was drive as safe as I could with my kids in the car at ages 3 and 6. We finally got the vets. I called them to let them know I was coming but they were still unprepared for me when I got there. Needless to say they procrastinated so long the mommies contrctions had stopped and they were still dinking around. I'll spare the details and my anger with them there. So finally 3 little puppies and mommy come out after her c-section and Im told the one stuck in the birth canal had a hard time waking up and they had to use a lot of heart stimulents to revive him. The two I had did great but the one little guy ended up with severe heart problems from all the stimulents the vet gave him and at the age of 14 weeks had no choice but to attempt open heart surgery or loose him. Sadly he died under anethesia. I was heart broken and so was the expected new mom that decided that she wanted him even if his life with her was going to be short. I didnt get to spay her during the emergency so I bred her one last time with plans of a planned c-section and to be spayed at the same time. She only got pregnant with one pup but she was the most beautiful little girl and the expectant mom to be decided she badly wanted to adopt the now spayed mommy. So she happily lives with our now very good friends and I still get to babysit her. She also later adopted a puppy from me. My last litter was only one pup. The thought of one puppy delivering naturally brought back horrible memories of my first litter. Singletons are usually large and chances of it getting stuck high and contractios stopping high. But I made the decision to do it at home and not go in for a c-section because the mommy is a really good laborer. Puppy came out all wrong and fast, feet first, upside down and big! Thanfully mommy was a strong pusher and with only a little help and twisting from me we didnt have any problems. So all in all people it's scarry beyond belief and even with as much experience and training as I have there is no way to predict what will happen and it's always nerve racking for me. But to see the little puppies snuggled up nursing contently and watch them grow then to see them off to their new wonderful homes makes it all worth while.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Wow these stories are amazing, I caught myself holding my breath a few times. I think this really shows what breeders have to go through, delivering puppies is not a walk in the park, Kudos to you all and thanks for sharing.

Maryam when I read Tom’s response I kind of giggled, I thought he was just trying to be funny & cute. 
Tom do you care to help us? I think a few of us may be taking your response differently.


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

Wow! Great stories. Definitely not a task for feint of heart. Thanks to everyone for sharing with us. I also think this would be great information for anyone considering breeding - especially people who do it thinking they'll make a quick buck. (I'm not talking about people on the forum, but those people we end up hearing about in the news)


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Brandy, very heartwrenching stories. I cannot imagine going through it. 
Is it harder for toy dogs? 
I wonder if a lot of animals whelped in the wild, die. The totally uninformed, like me, would imagine it's all pretty straightforward. I didn't realize, until we became friends with our breeder and heard a few stories, that the bitch required so much human help. Thanks goodness you all care so much.


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## brandy (Jun 12, 2007)

mckennasedona said:


> Brandy, very heartwrenching stories. I cannot imagine going through it.
> Is it harder for toy dogs?
> I wonder if a lot of animals whelped in the wild, die. The totally uninformed, like me, would imagine it's all pretty straightforward. I didn't realize, until we became friends with our breeder and heard a few stories, that the bitch required so much human help. Thanks goodness you all care so much.


I have found from my experience the size of the breed doesnt matter. You want to hear somthing scarry.... I called a breeder about a puppy to get mor info and she told me she had more litters but didnt know what color or sex because they whelp by themselves out in the barn! :jaw:She said she only knew there were more litters because when her husband fed them he saw them! What?! She keeps her dogs like sheep in runs on dirt with straw and of course totally unkept. So sad... I cant imagine how many puppies she looses and how many moms have died giving birth.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Brandy, Are you talking about havanese dogs here?? (out in the barn with the cows and horses??)

Ryan


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## brandy (Jun 12, 2007)

Yah. They were Havanese, Can you believe that?! She actually sent me pictures and they were kept like sheep. They were shaved and their nails were long and they were filthy. So sad.:


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## Suuske747 (May 9, 2007)

Below is a site to a breeder in Germany, who created a day to day up close photodiary in cooperation with a Biology teacher, of the whole process of the 10 week puppies are with her, as a project for a secondary school. Including Birthing pictures.... so for those with a weak stomach...it is fascinating, just like a baby-birth, but just as "yucky"....

It is very detailed and informative, however it is in German....sorry

http://www.havaneser.de/new/vom_decken_bis_zur_geburt.html 
(2 dogs get together, pregnant mommy, scan, and the birth of the puppies)

http://www.havaneser.de/new/r-wurf02.htm (first 14 days)


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Leeann, I too thought maybe he wants to be funny? But then again, I don't 'know' Tom long enough to assume he was joking.


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## CacheHavs (Aug 2, 2007)

HayCarambaMama said:


> Now, when a baby is breech, it means head up/feet down. What's the difference with breech puppies? In human babies you have different breech positions, but they are all "breech": i.e. footling (foot born first), frank (butt first), etc.
> Heather, a C-section! Wow! How did you know mom needed that? Was it an emergency?


Donna,
We knew that after close to 2 hours of pushing and nothing coming out that our girl needed a C-Section. When they took the puppies out the vet informed us that the puppy holding up the process was laying sideways. The happy ending though was that all 4 pups lived


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I guess we've had about 30 litters of Havanese. They come out backwards a fair amount of time. As long as it's not the last one or two to be born in a litter there is usually enough in there that the mother has enough to push against and they come out just fine. Maybe one out of three litters has one of the last ones that the mom can't get out so we have to pull it. I've told how to do this on other threads.

We've only had one emergency C-section in all of those. Of course, it was 3 am after Thanksgiving night. Our regular vet was on vacation. Our backup vet was not available. One of our horse vets whose wife is a small animal vet was not availble. Pam found one in an adjoining county while I was thinking about sterilizing my tools that I had since I was 12 years old and took a correspondence course in Taxidermy. Meg had delivered 2 puppies fine but the third one was folded up across the canal blocking everything up. The rest of the litter was fine. This was the litter that Razzle was in.

My father raised English Setters and Beagles for hunting so puppies have always been one of my favorite things. When I met Pam in the mid 1970s, she was breeding Malamutes.

I had to help my best friend pull a calf on his wedding day. He has since gone on to be named Scientist of the Year for NASA, on the last team for the Nobel Prize in Physics, etc.

Pam and I have raised horses longer than we have dogs together. We have all sorts of stories about delivering foals-like the time one was presented with one front leg folded back and a call to our horse vet found him and his 8 1/2 month pregnant wife upside down beside the road. We had to push the colt back in, get the legs straightened out and Pam and I were both sitting on the ground in the stall with our legs on the mare's butt pulling the colt out. He turned out to be the best horse we have ever bred.

We have puppies so we can have puppies.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

HayCarambaMama said:


> Heather and Kimberly, WOW, really cool stories! And, Kimberly, I'm glad you wrote all that down while it's fresh in your head -- all those pretty puppies in your house -- woo-hooo! What a party of fruit! LOL.
> Now, when a baby is breech, it means head up/feet down. What's the difference with breech puppies? In human babies you have different breech positions, but they are all "breech": i.e. footling (foot born first), frank (butt first), etc.
> Heather, a C-section! Wow! How did you know mom needed that? Was it an emergency?


A lot of puppies are born head first or feet first (also called "rear presentation") and are not a problem, but breech in puppies is when the puppy is born butt first, which can be very difficult to pass through the vulva. I haven't had that happen yet and I can't imagine doing that as I've already had several large puppies I've had to pull out.

Another bit of trivia is that puppies are born in a sac that must be torn open when they arrive. This can be really good (less traction on the way out) and it can make things difficult because it is so slippery. I always have a stack of white washcloths nearby for holding puppies, cleaning and for pulling them out, if needed.


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## windfallhavs (Oct 19, 2006)

The first puppy out of Lacey's first litter was born curled up like a fist. We saw it on the x-ray and the vet warned me that there may be the possibility of a c-section if the puppy didn't straighten out. Puppy did not straighten out, but Lacey free whelped it anyway. I knew something was up when I reached back to move her tail to see what was going on back there and she screamed and tried to bite me. My mom held her head while I tried to help her with the puppy...and I think she came up off the floor of the whelping box about 2 feet when that puppy finally came out. I could not get her to even look at it until the 2nd puppy was born....all she saw it as was that "thing" that hurt her so badly...but by the time #2 got here her maternal instincts kicked in and everything worked itself out. She also had a surprise puppy in there that was barely 2 ounces at birth...I've never seen anything that small in my life. I guess the one thing I have learned from my mentors is that no matter how many litters you have...each one is different and you have to be prepared for just about anything.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

WOW did everyone see those pictures... OK I know you breeders have seen it first hand but I find it so interesting, I wish I could read German LOL. 

Thank you to all the breeders for sharing your stories with us.


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

Yes~ What a fantastic site! The pics are great and pretty true of what I have seen happen firsthand~
I too wish I could read German!


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## EstrellaVila (Nov 30, 2007)

This thread is intense. Breeders do not have an easy job at all. You guys who give us wonderful, healthy, puppies to love, I thank you!


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## avonleahavanese (Mar 20, 2008)

I've had about 15 litters, and no matter how many you have, there is always something new that can happen or go wrong. For the most part, the deliveries have all been normal, as I've sat with the mother for hours, petting and soothing them during their contractions. I would say about 1/2 of the pups are born breech, which is fairly common in dogs. Occasionally I've had a footling breech, which is a more difficult delivery for the mom. I've never had to do a c-section (I'm jinxing myself, now!).

As a former neonatal nurse, I've attended human high-risk deliveries and c-sections, but the first time I "assisted" a Havanese delivery I was sooooooo nervous! Labor signs in my dogs begin with the "nesting" instinct - a restless dog who will scratch her surroundings to get comfortable, but can't. Next, she will begin her "frantic panting" - as if she's had one too many cups of coffee! Then I know to get ready. 

I've had stillborn pups, and pups that the mother constantly picked up in her mouth and removed it from the other pups in her litter, despite me putting it back. I had to learn that dogs can sense when one of their pups is too ill to survive; that they know things we humans don't. I've cried many tears and also declared at these bad times that I was never going to breed again, because I couldn't take the pain. I've also had a mother go into eclampsia, causing me to rush her to the vet in order to save her life - then hand-feed 10 day old puppies every 3 hrs. (that neonatal training helped!) until they could be fed solid food. Those puppies ended up being the most socialized litter ever! 

But my favorite memory is when I got up in the morning and thought a mom was going into labor, so I went upstairs to get dressed. When I returned, the new mom (sometimes new moms don't have their maternal instinct kick in until the 2nd pup is born)
had delivered a pup, and it was still in the sac. I quickly removed the sac and tried warming up the puppy, who was cold and not breathing. I couldn't stimulate the puppy to breathe, but the mom was so preoccupieed with it, she wouldn't let me remove it from her sight. So, I kept it covered in a towel, and absently tried to warm it, hoping something would happen. I had given up about 10 minutes later, when I heard a little peep from the towel. I uncovered the towel and was amazed the puppy was moving!! I quickly gave the puppy to mom for her to clean it and stimulate it while I floated on air at the thought of this puppy coming back to life.
Phyllis


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Oh Phyllis, I can only imagine the elation at the lost pup coming back. What a thrill!

I didn't share on this thread, but I did on the thread about this litter in particular. I had my first loss last week. The first puppy to whelp was causing the dam a lot of pain and fear. She got a bit frantic as his feet began to emerge and she assisted his arrival with her mouth, but injured him in the process. After checking everything else, I managed to bandage his wound so he wouldn't bleed out as he tried to push towards his mom to nurse for the next few hours. I couldn't run the risk of trying to save him with veterinary help until all of his littermates were born, but I did call ahead to my local vet who agreed to take us in as soon as we could get there. As soon as the last one came out and was cleaned, I put the first born in my warming box and drove down to our local, fabulous vet who wanted to do everything they could for this puppy. He looked so perfect despite the bandage on him. He was squirmy, squeaky, and a great healthy size. When I removed the bandage and asked for the veterinarian's opinion on what could be done, he explained in great detail that he would need one limb completely amputated or he would need to be euthanized. (He didn't even need to remind me that this puppy had been seeping blood for the last four hours, which may have meant he was close to dying anyway.) A radical surgery on a four hour old puppy, then the pain, care and recovery involved all became overwhelming to consider for such a young baby that had already had a difficult entrance into the world. I knew I had to make the decision and I signed the consent forms for euthanizing him. 

That was a simple, but difficult decision to make. Yet, nothing was as hard as when the veterinarian held the sweet wiggly puppy in both hands and stretched his arms out to me and asked if I wanted to say goodbye. I immediately choked back the tears and whispered, "I'm sorry" to the sweet little puppy. In that moment, I felt I failed him, but I knew I really couldn't do anything else. It wouldn't be fair to prolong his life at the likely chance of losing him during surgery or shortly after.

I can completely understand any breeder saying that they just don't want to continue after going through something like that. It's such a heartache. In those two months of pregnancy you get so excited for these little pups, but once you see them on the x-ray and then help bring them into the world, it becomes such a personal loss.


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## wannabe (Feb 3, 2008)

Kimberly,

What a moving story. I am so sorry you had to make that decision. This thread has given me an even greater appreciation for all of the hard work, sleepless nights and tough decisions you must make to bring the rest of us these wonderful companions.

We need to have a breeder appreciation day. Excuse me while I go start a new thread.

HavHugs,

Sharon


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## HayCarambaMama (Dec 8, 2007)

Oh, Kimberly...  Oh my goodness, I am so very sorry. Of course you didn't fail him; you saved him. ((((HUGE HUGS)))) My heart is broken for you.


And, oh Phyllis -- wowzers, what an AMAZING story!!! yay, little survivor!!


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

Okay, I am so moved by this thread. Incredible! 

It is hard for me to read these, as I imagine there are sooo many pups and moms mistreated in mills and with dumb ass people that don't know what they are doing and are in it "for a buck." I've had sooo many people who can't believe that I have had Posh spayed. These uneducated folk comment that she's so beautiful and sweet aren't I going to want to breed her?!? Duh. I always tell them that I know nothing about whelping dogs, and that it is really irresponsible to "just have puppies." 

Amanda posted the new show that is going to run on Animal Planet, Groomer Has It, well, I think that a breeder story (like the baby story on TLC) would be way cooler! I agree these stories are intense with emotion and excitement, there wouldn't be a dry eye in the house! 

Way to go responsible breeders, I couldn't imagine doing what you are doing. What a miracle.


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## Colinahavanese (Dec 31, 2007)

I can say I think I was fortunate with Lily. She did great despite having 3 wopping 8 oz babies. But I guess the most amazing thing was that the smallest came first at 6 oz and the biggest came last, although she was pretty tired by that point. I think she would have had a lot more problems if not for this. 
If you want to see pictures of birthing Havanese here is a link in English. It has a lot of information on it too.
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/showdogs/breedingreproducing.htm


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## brandy (Jun 12, 2007)

Kimberly. Im sooo sorry to hear what happend. As I sat here and told my husband about your story I had tears come down my face and he got a upset too. No matter how many times you do this and what different situtions happen it never gets any easier. You just do the best you can do and and find happiness in the ones that are healthy and striving. You did the best you could do and made the right decision for that little pup. But I also know despite knowing you did your best it doesnt make things any easier so I wanted to send you some hugs. :hug:


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