# Allergies, Allergies, Allergies



## Jill in Mich

I met today with an Allergy, Skin & Ear specialist for Tess. I thought I would start a thread of our experience & what we learn as we go through this for others who may be having allergy problems with their pets. I'll state right up front: I'm not an expert,. I also realize there may be other ways to go about dealing with this issue and this may not be the right path for everyone. After careful consideration, I have decided to go to this doctor and then follow his advice, using a very methodical approach, and hopefully find a cure for Tess, or at least relieve her symptoms. I was concerned that if I just tried to deal with this on my own I would spend far too long stumbling along and never really solve anything, while spending a ton of money. (This way, it'll take me less time to spend that ton of money, :biggrin1


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## Missy

I will be very interested to follow this thread Jill. Give Tess scratches behind the ears from me a very allergic human who loves to scratched myself.


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## irnfit

Kodi has allergies. At first I thought they were just seasonal allergies. Then I found a flea, so thought it had to be an allergic reaction to flea bites. But now there are no fleas and he is still scratching. I think it would be so much easier if they were both scratching, but it is just Kodi. I don't think it is his food, because I tried switching brands, and he still scratched. I'll be very interested to keep following this thread.


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## Jill in Mich

History: Tess was 5 years old when I got her in December '07. Because she had been a puppy mill breeder up to that point, I don't have much history on her health. When I picked her up she was already scratching at her ears, chewing on her feet, etc.

I'm a little sketchy on the early treatments we did with her so please forgive me. I'll give you what I remember.

In late December '07 Tess was put on 4mg Chlorpheniramine, to try and help the itching. The hope was to break the cycle of her itching to see if it was maybe stress related or possibly just a habit she'd developed. It didn't relieve her symptoms so about 2 weeks later she went on 5mg Prednisolone and 10mg Doxepin. We continued this for about a month, with no change in her symptoms.

In mid-February '08 my options were to take her to an allergist for the skin prick test (similar to what they do to people) or have a blood samples sent to a lab. I chose the blood test due to cost and less stress on Tess (they sedate them for the prick test). My regular vet sent the blood samples to Bio-Medical Services for the testing at a cost of around $370.

I received a lengthy report of all the items (categorized by: food, trees, grasses, weeds, molds, other (i.e., dust mites, cat, fleas, etc.) and how allergic she was to each item (negative, borderline, borderline-positive, positive, highly-positive).

In early March I started giving Tess allergy shots (cost of about $250). The shots are given in gradually increasing dosages over a couple of months. First every 3-4 days, then 4-7 days, then 7-8 days, then monthly. (During high allergy season you might have to give shots more often.) You work up from .10cc to .75 cc. The vials lasted about 10 months. I was told it could take anywhere from 3-12 months before we saw any improvement.


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## Jill in Mich

The allergy tests found that Tess was:
Highly Positive: Dust mites (poor thing, living in my house!)
Positive: Mold, fungus, floor mites, pigwood weeds and penicillium
Borderline-Postive: Food (chicken, pork), trees (birch, alder, willow, elm), grass (Timothy), molds (yeast), mites (storage, mold), nettle weed and fleas
Borderline: Food (potato, corn, sweet potato, turkey), trees (privet/olive, mulberry, hazelnut pollen, ash), grass (bluegrass, reed/sweet vernal, babia), weeds (goldenrod, cocklebur), more molds, and cats (so much for getting a cat).

I changed her diet to Wysong Anergen (lamb & rice) ,which she soon refused to each, at which point I started combining that with canned 95% pure lamb, venison, rabbit or beef. She would get that for one meal a day and then Nature's Variety Raw Medallions (lamb, venison, or beef) for her second meal. At some point she started refusing the kibble/canned combination and has been strictly on raw for a few months now. For treats she gets the Natural Balance rolls (beef or lamb).


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## Jill in Mich

I had been giving her the shots for about a year and it didn't really seem like they were making any difference. I would see a slight improvement for a few days after the shots but that was about it. I occassionally gave her prednisone, if the scratching was really bad but didn't want to have her on that long term. I would give her antihistamines a little more frequently but the relief was limited.

Her symptoms are: licking her paws (that's why her feet always look pink in her pictures), scratching her eyes/ears/armpits/shoulders/belly, licking her groin.

She's also had 3-4 ear infections over the year. Unfortunately, because she's forever scratching it's tough to realize she has an ear infection (there's never any smell.)

The vet also found that one of her ears is blocked or damaged - they were unable to tell (the specialist will take care of this issue also). Because the ear infections never seem to completely clear up, the thought is that she may have an inner ear infection.


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## Jill in Mich

So, a month ago I made an appointment with this specialist. Tess had to be prednisone free for a month and antihistamine free for 2 weeks before we could go in. 

For what it's worth, the doctor is 1 of 5 double-boarded veterinary dermatologists in the US (American College of Veterinary Dermatology and American Board of Veterinary Practitioners).

He wasn't able to do the allergy tests today. Tess has not been eating well for the past week and hardly at all since Friday (I almost took her to the emergency room yesterday due to her reaction to finally eating just a little bit of cheese). He wanted my regular vet to rule out any other problems before putting her through this. 

What he did tell me:
- The blood tests I had done last year are of some value, but limited
- You can test for environmental allergies but not food
- Stress does not cause allergies but will definitely aggravate them
- Tear staining is not usually associated with allergies
- Ear infections are frequently related to allergies

I didn't ask about vaccinations, I'll remember to do that next time.

What they will do:
- To test for environmental allergies, they would typically sedate the dog/cat and do the skin prick test. It looks like there's about 90 things they test for: indoor inhalants (house dust, wool, cat hair, feather mix, cotton linters, mites), tree pollens, grass pollen, weed pollens, molds, and insects.
* Because one of Tess' ears is blocked, instead of just being sedated, they will anesthetize (sp?) her, unblock the ear and check for inner ear infections and then do the prick test while she's under.

- To determine her food allergies, we'll be doing an elimination diet. She'll be put on a protien that she's never had before plus a starch. It will be home cooked. (He told me it can't be raw but I forgot to ask why, I'll do that next time). Since we think she's allergic to chicken, pork and turkey and is currently getting lamb, venison, rabbit and beef and showing sypmtoms, she'll be on an ostrich or emu diet. (Yes, you read that correctly, ostrich or emu!!! And must be pure meat, no additives, etc.) Since she's allergic to potatoes and sweet potatoes I'll be combining the meat with oats. This is all she'll be allowed to have for the 1-3 months it will take to determine if she has food allergies. She cannot put anything else in her mouth - including heartworm pills, vitamins, treats, etc. We'll know she has food allergies if there is relief in her symptoms on this diet. If we decide she has food allergies we'll either start adding items to the emu/ostrich/oats or try slowly adding the foods she had been on. Because it's not a balanced diet to start with, Tess will probably lose weight (one of the reasons the doctor wants to make sure there's nothing else going on with her.) He also doesn't want to start the new diet when she's not feeling well so that she doesn't associate these new foods with having an upset stomach.


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## Jill in Mich

While going through this process with the elimination diet I'm required to keep a "Daily Itch Calendar" using a scale of 0 (normal itching) to 10 (non-stop itching). 

This will help determine whether a particular antihistamine helps in lowering the amount of steroid that is needed to keep the itching (licking/scratching/chewing/biting/rubbing) at a comfortable level ("steroid sparing effect").


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## ama0722

Jill,
I will be watching this as for the first time, Belle has allergies. I originally thought it was a hot spot she developed on her back as she would lay on her back and rub or itch removing hair. A maltese breeder down here called it summer kennel itch and her dogs get it and she told me to use a product "happy jack" which did help stop it temporarily. But she has been itching on occasion again. I think Belle is allergic to SC!!! I have really been watching when we are outisde for a long time is when she gets bad and itches her back. I am just watching her, trying to distract her and bathing her a lot and this seems to be working right now for us. If it gets worst I will consider taking her in but I want to avoid any shots if possible.


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## Jill in Mich

*Atopic Dermatitis*

From a handout I received at Dr. Bloom's office:

Definition: Atopic Dermatitis is a pruritic (itchy) skin disease of dogs and cats. In atopic dermatitis, an allergic reaction occurs when an animal inhales airborne substances or ingests a substance to which they are sensitive. Unlike man, animals with atopic dermatitis only occoasionally cough, sneeze or get asthma. Instead, they itch. The itching may be localized to certain areas or may be over their entire body. Usually the feet, face, ears, armpits, and front legs are affected. This is in contrast to flea allergy where the rump, tail groin and thighs are affected. About 1/2 the pets with atopy will also be allergic to fleas so will have symptoms of both diseases.

Atopic dermatitis due to food reactions can be cured, while those due to airborne substances can't be cured, but in most cases can be controlled. Usually, cortisone type drugs (steroids) are used. They are very effective anti-inflammatory, anti-itch medications. Steroids have more side effects (excessive drinking, urinating and eating along with increased susceptibility to infection) than other treatments. If used long-term without supervision, steroids may decrease the pet's longevity. It may also be the only treatment to control the pet's symptoms.

Alternatives to steroids:

*Antihistamines in conjunction with essential fatty acids* will control 10-25% of atopoic dermatitis due to airborne allergens. Only side effect: grogginess. EFA's work better in combination w/ antihistamines than either product by themselves. There are no side effects to EFA's but may take up to 60 days to be effective. They do not help pyodermas (bacterial skin infections), Malassezia infections (yeast infections), otitis externa (ear infections), cutaneous adverse food reactions, or flea allergies.

*Cyclosporine* works by suppressing the immune system but in a safer manner than steroids. 40-50% effective but must be given life-long and is not effective for the same things as the antihistamines/EFAs.

*Allergen specific immunotherapy (ASIT)* (allergy shots) is the ONLY method that is currently available to help IMPROVE the health of the immune system (vs. MASKING symptoms). Allergen specific immunotherapy makes it possible to desensitize your pet to airborn allergens. (It does not work for food allergies). Works for 60-70% of the atopic dermatitis due to airborne allergens (either needing no other medication or less potent medication than previously). ASIT stimulates your pet's own protective mechanism (immune system), which stops the allergic reaction from occurring. Requires giving an injection every 7-21 days for the LIFETIME OF YOUR PET. It may take 6-12 months for the injections to be effective.

Pets with atopic dermatities are prone to secondary skin infections, ear infections and Malassezia (yeast) infections and frequently have sensitive skin. Any skin infection, irritating substance, or fleas will aggravate the allergic condition.


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## Jill in Mich

*Preventive Measures*

Because Tess has allergies to outdoor substances I should:
- Wipe her body and legs off with a damp rag every time she comes in from outdoors
- Bathe her every week to remove those same substances (Please note: Medicated shampoos do not lather well.)

I need to ask whether full coat protects her skin from the allergens or makes it worse (I'm thinking it will help to be in full coat.)


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## Jill in Mich

*Pain Levels*

I'll post this as a separate thread, but here also, so all of the info I collected is in one spot...

*Pain Level: None*
Observations: 
- No pain
- Relaxed and freely moving
- Does not notice the surgical site
- Normal attention to the environment
- Interactive, playful and normal behavior

*Pain Level: Mild*
Observations:
- Limps or guards affected area
- Slightly depressed
- May pant or breathe hard
- Dogs may still wag tails and cats may still purr

*Pain Level: Moderate*
Observations:
- Depressed, trembling, head down
- Loss of appetite
- May cry or bite when touched
- Abdomen tense if involved
- May assume the prayer position
- Doesn't sleep

*Pain Level: Severe* 
Observations:
- More vocalizing and more depressed
- Unaware of surroundings
- May thrash about intermittently
- May scream if approached
- Increased heart rate and respiration

Recommend that any patient displaying signs of moderate or severe pain be evaluated at the hospital. These patients may need to be hospitalized for more aggressive pain control.


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## Missy

Oh Jill! what a wonderful mom you are! where on earth are you going to find Ostrich? Good luck-- I will keep checking in. Poor Tess. Poor you. This does not sound easy.


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## Lilysplash I

I agree with Missy's post. I was thinking the same thing about you as I was reading all that you had posted so that you can help others. Thank you!


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## Jill in Mich

So that brings us up-to-date on everything I learned from the specialist today.

To follow-up on a few other things I mentioned...

I took Tess to her regular vet this afternoon to make sure she doesn't have anyting else seriously wrong with her before we start on this process. The specialist was concerned because she hasn't hardly eaten since Friday - she seems hungry but the second she smells the food she turns away. Her poor little belly grumbles through most of the night. I thought her teeth might be bothering her, but she's had no problem chewing on a bully stick. She's been eating lots of grass, but she always does that. When she did get a little food down, she looked really uncomfortable so I was concerned about an obstruction, but she's having regular bowel movements - not real solid and small, but not bad.

So the vet did a full blood panel (I'll get the results of that tomorrow) and an x-ray of her belly. The vet came back in with the x-rays and said "Well, this is not good. But I can't tell what I'm looking at." :jaw: There were a couple of little "pellets" that were lit up in the bottom of her stomach. "These look like stones, or pieces of metal.....That's what bone looks like."

At that point I just laughed. Tess had finally eaten some of her NV raw medallions earlier that afternoon....with their pieces of bone. The vet was almost in tears she was so relieved.

She suggested I give Tess 5mg of famotidine (Pepcid AC or its equivalent) once a day. Since it's prime allergy season that's probably whats making her miserable. 

If everything comes back okay with the blood tests I'll try to schedule the ear procedure and prick test for later this week so we can start getting Tess some relief.

Oh, and finding ostrich or emu......I happened to find an alternative pet foods store less than 2 miles from my house. They have ordered 24 lbs of ostrich for me. The owner suggested I cook it with the oats in a slow cooker to make a stew. She can also order freeze dried ostrich for me to use as treats but those are really pricey ($235 for a case!) ... Miss Tess may be spoiled, but she's not that spoiled! (Actually the owner can order ostrich steak and I could make my own treats.) Believe it or not, since I have to find foods she's never had I have a few options: buffalo, venison, llama, kangaroo...
KANGAROO??? All of this is through a company called Oma's Pride.

She also gave me the name of a homeopathic DVM that she has been studying under. He is out of Louisiana but does phone consultations. She said he has had very good results in treating allergies and even emotional/stress issues (which Tess has a ton of). If this doesn't work with the specialist, I may give this a try. (I can't find his business card right now, I'll post his name/website when I find it.)

She also suggested supplements from a company called "Animal Essentials" - they have a 'detox/allergy blend' that she said there have been good results with.


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## Sheri

Wow, Jill, you've really got a rough time ahead of you. I know, because two of my kids had severe food allergies, and I spent 3 years cooking radically weird foods on a rotation diet for them. It took hours to figure out what to cook that day, then a long time to find the ingredients. At least it will be easier to cook for Tess!

Hope you can resolve this for poor Tess. You are a wonderful doggy-mom!


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## JASHavanese

Jill in Mich said:


> In mid-February '08 my options were to take her to an allergist for the skin prick test (similar to what they do to people) or have a blood samples sent to a lab. I chose the blood test due to cost and less stress on Tess (they sedate them for the prick test). My regular vet sent the blood samples to Bio-Medical Services for the testing at a cost of around $370..


I had that test done on me. Cost me a fortune and when I got back the results my jaw dropped. It totally missed what I'm allergic to and told me I was allergic to things that don't bother me. I talked to my doctor about it and he told me I should have talked to him first before running the test and he would have told me I'd pay a fortune for nothing. I heard about it and just had the nurse draw my blood to send in to them. I called the company and asked them to redo the test and they agreed to do it and then ignored me.
An elimination diet works pretty well without the expense.


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## JASHavanese

Jill in Mich said:


> She also gave me the name of a homeopathic DVM that she has been studying under. .


That could be where you find your answers. Have you put her on a good probiotic? I can't remember all of the top 5 on the market but know "NOW" (the one you keep in the fridge) is one of them. She may have a leaky gut and not allergies but either way the probiotic won't hurt her and is good for her. This is a hot topic with me that I researched for a few years because I went through it. I was dx with allergies and restless leg. My legs itched so bad that I'd kick my husband all night long. Watching a play was totally out as I couldn't hold still that long. That's when I found a dr that was into holistic things and found my answers.


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## JASHavanese

http://ahvma.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=67&Itemid=140
You can find a holistic vets here.
BTW, the product NOW costs about 6 or 7 dollars in either a grocery store or a health foods store. Much cheaper than what places online will try to sell you.


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## Jill in Mich

Thanks Jan, 

I'm going to keep probiotics (along with the homeopathic vet) in mind if this doesn't work. I want to try the elimination diet first and hold off on confusing the results by adding anything else. This is good information to have though so I know I have options.


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## marb42

Poor Tess! She's been through so much already, and you are wonderful to take such great care of her. She is so lucky to have ended up with you. I really hope this specialist can help! Your thread contains so much great info., and I'm sure many of us will benefit from it. I can't believe your specialist is 1 of 5. Wow!
Gina


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## Missy

I have to say this about allergy tests too.... I got the rast (blood test) done for foods... I came back highly allergic to everything! Out of 100+ foods there were 5 I showed no allergies too. (what can you do with shrimp, swordfish, flounder, basil, coffee?) So although it was absurd and I do not limit myself to these foods...there was a pattern I could see. I am much less allergic to protein than I am anything else... and when I can stick to mostly protein and green veggies I feel much better...no rashes, fewer aches, more allert...I lose weight even though I eat brie for breakfast. And my seasonal allergies are much less bothersome...all allergies are cumilitive. If you lesson some others won't bother you as much. So, as much as a poo poo'd the test and ignored it, when I stopped ignoring it I did see a difference. 

Jill, do you have to stick with One food Tess hasn't eaten for the 30-60 days or can you rotate ostrich, emu, buffalo, etc. I love my nesco dhydrator! you could definately very easily make Ostrich jerky.


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## HavaBaloo

Wow Jill looks like you and poor little Tess have gone through alot already. I will be keeping you and Tess in my thoughts and hope you can come up with a treatment plan so she can be comfortable and have a long healthy life.

I know where you are coming from, my son Noah has major eczema and allergies which we have been struggling with since he was 4 months old. We have kept it well under control for the last 3 years, but before that finding the treatment plan that worked for us was hard.....it was trial and error. I think now that Noah is 10 my doctor wants to do some major allergy testing, since they only did a basic panel when he was 6.

Be patient, everything will work out!


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## Jill in Mich

Missy said:


> Jill, do you have to stick with One food Tess hasn't eaten for the 30-60 days or can you rotate ostrich, emu, buffalo, etc. I love my nesco dhydrator! you could definately very easily make Ostrich jerky.


I'm not sure Missy, I'll add that to my list of questions. Of course 24 lbs of ostrich will probably last quite a while! I was thinking a dehydrator would be a good idea - I need something to give her as treats.


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## Jill in Mich

Thanks for the positive thoughts everyone. I'm really not too concerned about going through this. It isn't anything that is immediately life threatening for Tess, just very uncomfortable. I was thinking I should put myself on a good diet while I'm doing this for Tess. I could use the discipline as much as she could! Can't say it will be ostrich and oats though!!!


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## DanielBMe

> At that point I just laughed. Tess had finally eaten some of her NV raw medallions earlier that afternoon....with their pieces of bone. The vet was almost in tears she was so relieved.


Seems odd to me. NV raw diets contain raw *ground* bone not bone peices. So it's highly unlikely that it's from the NV. How big were these pieces?


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## Jill in Mich

DanielBMe said:


> Seems odd to me. NV raw diets contain raw *ground* bone not bone peices. So it's highly unlikely that it's from the NV. How big were these pieces?


Not very big and I had hand fed her the food so I just happened to notice the two pieces of bone that were about 1/8 inch - what, maybe .5 cm?


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## Petaluna

Hey Jill, btw, did the vet seem at all concerned about the bone pieces, or just that they will take a little longer to digest? I know the bone is supposed to be a good source of calcium for them, and yet I know some raw prepared diets purposely contain no bone, and I'm not sure what the reason is for that.


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## Jill in Mich

Petaluna said:


> Hey Jill, btw, did the vet seem at all concerned about the bone pieces, or just that they will take a little longer to digest? I know the bone is supposed to be a good source of calcium for them, and yet I know some raw prepared diets purposely contain no bone, and I'm not sure what the reason is for that.


No, she wasn't really concerned. She was more grossed out than anything. I knew she didn't especially like raw diets (her concern is botulism, etc.) so really doesn't much about them. She didn't realize that bone was used in some raw foods.


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## Petaluna

Good to know, thanks Jill. Grossed out, eh? lol! Yeah, there's a lot of fear around raw diets for dogs, and yet so many people (some of them on this forum) doing it very successfully. My yorkie never got anything like that, the only problems she had were from what I suspect was my not getting the nutrient ratios right, which I'm thinking would be avoided with a well made commercial raw. Otherwise, it cleared up SO many of her chronic health issues. 

OMG, are you getting the hail storm we are right now? Holy cow!


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## mckennasedona

Jill, Tess is lucky to have you to care for her. You two have quite an adventure ahead of you. If it helps get a handle on her allergies it will all be worth it. 
I'm glad you were able to find the meats you need for her.


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## Jill in Mich

Tess had her allergy tests today. They sedated her (with a valium injection) and gave her morphine. They had to shave her to do the allergy "prick" test. Since she's so little they basically shaved her entire side. If she starts scratching at it I'm supposed to put her in a onsie. Fortunately she's left it alone so far. Here's a picture of Tess and her new checkerboard:


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## Jill in Mich

The blood tests we had done a year ago at our regular vet said she was allergic to:


Jill in Mich said:


> Highly Positive: Dust mites (poor thing, living in my house!)
> Positive: Mold, fungus, floor mites, pigwood weeds and penicillium
> Borderline-Postive: Food (chicken, pork), trees (birch, alder, willow, elm), grass (Timothy), molds (yeast), mites (storage, mold), nettle weed and fleas
> Borderline: Food (potato, corn, sweet potato, turkey), trees (privet/olive, mulberry, hazelnut pollen, ash), grass (bluegrass, reed/sweet vernal, babia), weeds (goldenrod, cocklebur), more molds, and cats (so much for getting a cat).


*The skin prick test they did today showed:
Very High: Dust Mites
Moderate: House dust, mattress dust, maple trees, weed pollens (goldenrod, dandelion, ragweed mix, west waterhemp)*

Initially, I thought that was quite a difference, but the more I look at it, if you take out the foods, there are strong similarities. (Missy, it made me think of your results, that your blood test showed you were allergic to just about everything, including things you knew you weren't allergic to.)

The test did not show her allergic to any molds, which the doctor found suspicious so he did additional blood tests that have been sent to a lab. According to this specialist, you cannot test (blood or skin prick) for food allergies, that must be done through an elimination diet (which she will start this weekend).


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## Jill in Mich

Tess also suffers from chronic ear infections - caused by allergies, so the doctor also did a flushing of her right ear, then used a camera scope to check it out and treated her left ear, which had an ear infection. They put Tess under general anesthesia for this procedure. 

I had asked if they would clean her teeth while she was under the anesthesia but the doctor felt that would be too much for her system, which is already compromised, so we didn't do the teeth.

For those who may be considering these procedures for their pet, just to give you an idea of cost: the two procedures today cost approximately $1,500 (including ear medicine and a medicated shampoo).


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## Jill in Mich

So now that I'm starting to get some answers, we start looking for solutions.

What I'm not going to do:
1) *Injections*: ...at least not yet. I have been giving Tess allergy shots for over a year and have seen no improvement. If we don't see an improvement with some of the other things we try, we may go back to the allergy shots but since that's something that I will have to give her the rest of her life, I'm hoping we can avoid.

2) *Steroids*: If her symptom appear intolerable, which they were last week, I can ask for short-term (2 weeks) steroid treatment. I would like to avoid giving Tess steroids on a regular basis since it causes health issues and frequently shortens the dogs life. But again, if necessary to make her comfortable, I'll do it.

What I'm going to do:

Immediate for dust mites:
1) *Have her hair cut*. The doctor described her as a walking dust mop. With hair that almost drags on the ground, she literally picks up everything. In addition, because she's a small breed, she's inhaling everything because her nose is so close to the floor. The doctor said you don't usually see a great dane with these problems, because they're so high up! I'm more upset about having her hair cut than I expected. I really like her long coat. What the doctor suggested was that I have her legs done in a "poodle cut" - completely shaved - since she picks up most of the allergens through her feet (and nose) and then I can leave the rest of her a little longer (I'm thinking around 3").

2) *Wash or freeze any cloth/stuffed toys once a week.* If washed, it must be with hot water. If freezing, they suggested putting the toys in a plastic bag and then they are left in the freezer for at least 24 hours. This is to kill the dust mites.

3) *All of my bedding and the dog's bedding must be washed in hot water once a week.*. I keep blankets on my furniture for the dogs to lay on. All of that will have to be washed once a week, along with their car seats.

4) *Allergen-proof encasings for my mattress and pillows.* Of course, Tess loves to bury herself under my pillows

5) *Cyclosporine*. This suppresses the immune system but is safer than steroids.

Intermediate considerations for dust mites:
6) Antihistamine with essential fatty acids
7) Box spring encasing
8) Reduce humidity (<45%) with air-conditioner/dehumidifier
9) Use vacuum cleaner with double-thick dust collection bag and high energy particulate air filter

Long-term considerations for dust mites:
10) Replace carpet with polished flooring (I of course have carpeting throughout the house)
11) Replace soft upholstered furniture with wood, vinyl, or leather (I of course have all cloth furniture)
12) Select living area above ground and not on cement slab (Thank goodness I don't have to buy a new house to accommodate Tess!)


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## Jill in Mich

For fungi "Allergen Avoidance Goals" are:

Immediate:
1) Decrease Humidity (40% - 45%)
2) Clean with fungicide
3) Dry clothing/shoes before placing them in closet
4) Repair water leaks
5) No houseplants in bedroom

Intermediate:
6) Discard of moldy furnishings (ewwww, would have done that a long time ago!)

Long-term:
7) Move to above-ground home with lower humidity. (I'm thinking I'll move to New Mexico and make both of us happy!)


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## Jill in Mich

As I mentioned previously, Tess will also be starting a strict ostrich and oat diet this weekend. (The doctor wanted her system to be able to recover a little from today's procedures before starting the new diet). 

We're doing ostrich and oats since both are items she has never had in her diet before. She cannot have anything else, including oral heartworm. (While it's not the best, she'll be getting Revolution while on this diet). Missy asked if I could alternate with kangaroo - no. I will have to stick to just ostrich and oats. 

I also will not be able to do any supplements, probiotices, etc. (at least during) this early phase. If she was allergic to these, we wouldn't be able to determine if it was the food ingredient or the supplement. 

She'll get 2-2.5 cups of this mixture a day (3 parts oats to one part ostrich). Unfortunately, because it's not a balanced diet, I should expect her to lose weight. 

The meat must be cooked, it cannot be raw. I won't be able to argue with the raw feeders (because I'm not sure I understand completely) but there is an issue with bacteria in raw. Besides Tess probably being allergic to the bacteria and her being susceptible due to her compromised immune system, there can also be a danger with the interaction of these bacterias with the cyclosporine she'll be taking.

She'll be on ostrich and oats for at least 60 days. If her symptoms improve we either start adding one new ingredient at a time until we're sure she's not allergic to anything and she's on a balanced diet; or we'll try a new dry/cooked food. Knowing Tess, we'll be doing the home cooked route (understand, I don't cook for myself, but I'm about to be cooking for The Princess!) 

For anyone who might try this: I'm using Quaker Oats, 100% rolled oats (can't be instant - they have other ingredients and can't be steel cut - too big). The meat must be pure - no additives, or other ingredients. This first shipment of ostrich I'm getting is around $9/pound for 24 pounds. I've gotten human grade meat. The doctor said I can do pet quality for about 1/2 the price (I just have to find it). I've also bought a few ostrich steaks and am taking the advise of forum members and getting a dehydrator to make treats. 

Post Note:
I had been feeding NV raw medallions. Recently Tess started to refuse to eat anymore of the raw (of course she won't eat kibble or canned, so I'm screwed) and since then her scratching/licking/biting has lessened (on a scale of 0-10, she's gone from a 9 to a 7). I'm sure there's something in it she's allergic to(possibly the blueberries, carrots, bacteria, or any combination).


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## Jill in Mich

Odds and ends:
* I have to use a medicated shampoo (hypo-allergenic) and no conditioners/detanglers allowed (good thing we're going short), since might also be allergic to those ingredients.
* Once we get the allergies under control, the ear infections should clear up. 
* He didn't believe her vaccinations are causing/contributing her allergies. (By the time she's ready for her next shots, we should have everything else under control so I should know if they cause a problem)
* I'll post info on the ear infections under a seperate thread so anyone having those problems don't have to read through all of this.


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## vipbrj

wow... Wall-E has been gnawing at his feet lately and I am taking him to the vet tomorrow becuase one of them has become inflamed. I hope I am not starting the whole process you've been through  I thank you soooo much write writing all this out for people like me who might have to go that route. I wish you the best of luck!


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## Jill in Mich

vipbrj said:


> wow... Wall-E has been gnawing at his feet lately and I am taking him to the vet tomorrow becuase one of them has become inflamed. I hope I am not starting the whole process you've been through  I thank you soooo much write writing all this out for people like me who might have to go that route. I wish you the best of luck!


If it's just Wall-E's feet, I wouldn't think you need to go through all of this. Cody does this also. I had him at the allergists' office with me and he started chewing on his pads. The vet looked at him, looked at me and said "You have two with allergies!" Tell me about it! I met a neighbor this evening whose dog has this problem also. He chews on them to the point they are raw. He rubs aloe (as pure as possible, without any perfumes, etc.) and a spray to calm hot spots on the dogs feet, between the toes, on the paws, etc. and says it works great (besides being a heck of a lot cheaper and less complicated!). I'm going to give that a try for Cody.


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## Thumbelleina

When is an allergy so severe that you must take action? Buster bits his feet and rubs against the wall, and rolls on his chew toys, but I've switched him to Orijen and he seems to be slightly better. I don't want to waste a lot of time and money on a problem that is minor (like humans getting a slight runny nose during certain seasons), but I also don't want my baby to be in pain. So at what point should I start being concerned?


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## Jill in Mich

Thumbelleina said:


> When is an allergy so severe that you must take action? Buster bits his feet and rubs against the wall, and rolls on his chew toys, but I've switched him to Orijen and he seems to be slightly better. I don't want to waste a lot of time and money on a problem that is minor (like humans getting a slight runny nose during certain seasons), but I also don't want my baby to be in pain. So at what point should I start being concerned?


Rolling on his chew toys may not have anything to do with allergies. Cody does that with anything that smells good (to him).

When does Buster rub against the wall? Many dogs will rub against a wall or a piece of furniture when they're wet or if they want a sweater/harness/etc. off.

Regarding your question of when is it time to take additional steps... the doctor told me to put myself in Tess' spot. If I was itching/scratching as often as she did, would I go to the doctor? Cody chews on his feet 2-3 times a day. To me, that isn't serious enough to require the extreme measures I'm putting Tess through. Tess on the other hand is scratching/ licking/chewing her paws/pads/ears/eyes/belly/groin/armpits, almost constantly, year round. Her hair is falling out in matted clumps because of her scratching. Her eyes are always red with scratches because of her scratching - she's even starting to lose her hair around her eyes. Her paws and chin are discolored because of her licking. Many of the dogs seen by this doctor have scratched themselves completely bald and many have skin diseases (rashes, sores, etc.)

I also spent a year working with my regular vet, with no improvement. If you're concerned about Buster being in pain, back on page 1 or 2 there is a list of pain categories that might help.


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## Jill in Mich

Also, the allergist told me every dog/cat scratches some (2-3 times a day).


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## maryam187

Jill, what to say? It was drenching just to read through your ordeal, I don't want to know just how exhausting it mus be for you to live in this situation. If Tess like the ostrich, it may be possible that she's a Swiss pup! They eat ostrich and horse steak like we eat chicken breast or beef steak. Quite interesting...I'm going to try and find your ear thread, do you mind sharing the link to it in your post here where you mention the ear thread you will start? Hugs to you my dear, you are a strong woman with a heart filled with love and that's why someone up there is sending all the tough cases your way. :kiss:


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## sadiestie

*allergies*

This is for Jill and others whose Havis have allergies -

My one year old Sadie seemed to have allergies from the very start. As early as 9 weeks old, when we first brought her home from the breeder, she was scratching more than dogs usually scratch. I told the vet about this at her new puppy checkup. No one was too concerned but by her second set of shots visit, they treated her for puppy mange even though they could not find any signs of it in a swab. They told me dogs don't usually have allergies under age 6 months. But, by about age 5 months it was clear she was scratching a good bit - she had scratched off her coat in two places! Although the vet proposed I use Benadryl to manage her symptoms, I wanted to know what the underlying cause was so I never used it. I was able to get her into the dermatologist shortly after and she was very helpful. ( I am lucky to live just outside a big city with a teaching hospital which is where I obtain all my dog care.)

I put Sadie on a home-cooked elimination diet, using potatoes and rabbit. Also, she had large amounts of 3VV Free Form fish oil that I had to squirt into her food, as well as Balanced IT vitamins. Some of her diet was determined by the needs of my 16 year old Westie who had kidney failure suffered several years back because I wanted to feed them the same food. (I believe from that horrible tainted food! - My wonderful girl died just this past March). She could have nothing else for the first three months - no treats other than her food; they put her on Revolution for heartworm protection. At a follow-up they found she had a yeast infection in her ears, common for dogs with allergies, and she was treated for that but it was minor and cleared up quickly. She is a big chewer and she cannot have any rawhide chews which she loved. It was difficult, but gradually the results became evident. Her scratched off hair grew back, her ears cleared up, her skin looked a healthy light pink (she is a white havi).

We started this diet in late August and I adhered to it strictly. By December, I was able to introduce other foods, one at a time, but I found that her scratching seemed to resume and I did not want to risk further allergic attacks. After my Westie died, I decided I did not need to homecook any more and I tried the Royal Canin veterinarian-prescribed kiblets for allergic dogs that my dermatologist had mentioned from the start. Its base is potato and rabbit. My Havi loves this food! I also use it as treats. I have found that she can tolerate sweet potatoes and lamb, and this does open up store-bought treats and chews.

The dermatologist had told me she could also have environmental allergies for which she could be tested and treated with allergy shots, if she continued to scratch. I have decided not to go this route. She still scratches but not more than usua and her skin and hair both look normal. If this spring/summer her itching re-emerges, I will move in the direction of skin testing and possible shots.

As compared to Jill's Havi, my dog's allergies sound less severe. The dr. did tell me that I should be concerned and treat because if a puppy is showing such early signs of allergies, they would only get worse as she gets older! I contacted my breeder early is this process to see if she was seeing allergic dogs in her line, but she was not aware of any.

Hope this helps. So far, Sadie is doing well. I now have a second havi - Estie - a beautiful little black girl with white markings - and thankfully she does not show signs of allergies at age 5 months. 

Sadie/Estie's Mom


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## Jill in Mich

Welcome Sadie/Estie's Mom!

First, I'm very sorry to hear about the loss of your Westie. I know how heartbreaking it is to lose a loved pet. 

Thanks for the information on your experience with allergies. When you started to re-introduce foods into Sadie's diet, what did you use? Since we're just starting the elimination diet that's a few months down the road, but just wondering.

Tess has been off of her regular foods for about a week now (but just starting the actual elimination diet today) and I'm already seeing definite improvement in her scratching. Yahoo!!! My only problem is going to be getting her to eat enough. She's probably eating about 1/8 of a cup maximum of ostrich right now and refuses to even look at the oats. As of today, she's getting nothing else but the ostrich and oats. They want her to eat 2-2.5 cups of ostrich (1 part) & oats (3 parts). 
I'm hoping she'll get hungry enough that she starts eating the oats also, but am going to check with the vet tomorrow, just to make sure. Based on previous blood tests we think she's allergic to potatoes and sweet potatoes and I already know she doesn't like rice, so I'm not sure what my options are (maybe squash or beans?). Since the experts say you can't determine food allergies with anything but an elimination diet, I'm tempted to see if I can try sweet potatoes instead of the oats.

I'll keep the Royal Canin in mind for when we're done. Tess is such a picky eater I suspect I'll be doing home-cooked from here on out. 

I completely understand holding off on having the allergy testing done. While I'm glad I had it done, it's a huge financial commitment and rough on the dog. If you suspect that Sadie has environmental allergies I'd probably just incorporate some of the recommended treatments for those allergies: 
* Completely wiping the dog down with a wet cloth every time they come in from outdoors. (Cody has minor allergies and since I've started doing this with him also, he's already chewing on his feet less.) 
* Vacuuming once a week - and if you have cloth furniture, vacuuming that also. (I read some reviews this weekend where reports have shown frequent, light vacuuming is not as effective on a thorough job done weekly.)
* Dust with a wet rag (to keep the dust down)
* Dust before you vacuum - and wait 20 minutes before vacuuming to allow the dust to settle (then when you vacuum you pick up this dust, which is the new food for dust mites)
* If you have carpets, have them steam cleaned once a year - in the spring.
* Remove the dog from the house (or at least the room) when vacuuming and don't allow them back in for 20 minutes after you've finished (to allow the dust to settle so they don't inhale as much)
* Either wash their soft toys in hot water once a week or freeze them once a week for 24 hours.
* Wash all of your bedding and theirs in hot water, once a week.

Additional steps I'm taking that cost some money (but much less than the allergy testing):
* Putting an allergen protective covers on my mattress, box springs and pillows (Since the dogs sleep with me.)
* I'm covering the furniture she most frequently lays on with a sheet that I'll change/wash every few days.
* Having Tess cut down to a shorter coat - especially her feet, which I'll have done very short
* Ordered a HEPA-filtered (layered bag) canister vacuum. 
- There's a ton of reviews on upright vs canister, bag vs bagless. 
- I went with the bagged because the vet recommended it and I thought it made more sense for trapping the allergens & dust mites. 
- The HEPA filtered means it traps at least 99.7..% (or something close to that) of the allergens and dust mites.
- A few people mentioned the new vacuums that have an ultra-violet ray that promises to kill dust mites. The reviews I read said you need to read the fine print that adds the disclaimer that the ultra-violet ray will only kill the dust mites that are exposed. Since most of the dust mites live deep in the carpet, it won't touch them. And if they do live closer to the top, but another thread of carpet is casting a shadow so the ultra-violet ray doesn't hit the little bugger, he's safe.

I'm glad to hear Estie doesn't have these same problems and hope Sadie continues to do better. I think you'll need to post pictures for all of to be sure though! :biggrin1: (You'll find we demand lots & lots of photos).


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## Jill in Mich

*Good News:* Although she continues to scratch/chew, Tess must be feeling better. We went to the dog park the other evening (we were the only ones there) and she RLH for almost 20 minutes. In her year with me, I've never seen her run like that (heck, or even be close to that level of activity). The park is about 3/4 acres and not only was she running all over, she was going off on her own (versus sticking within 12 inches of my feet). Once in a while she'd check back in (to get some ostrich jerky) but you could tell she was just having the best time! I don't think Cody knew what to think of this new Tess - he'd run with her for a while and then sit at my feet watching her. (Of course, I didn't have my camera with me.) Side Note: I was struck how RLH was such a normal activity for most dogs, but such a novel thing for Tess. In fact, I sort of had to teach her how - which, let me tell you, was quite a sight. (Which is another reason we go to the park when no one else is there!)

*Not Such Good News: * The results from Tess' blood tests (for allergies) came back and she's allergic to "A LOT". (I havent' yet seen the list.) The vet tech said Tess will definitely need to be on allergy shots for the rest of her life. The only way we won't have to do the shots is if all of her symptoms clear up on the elimination diet (very unlikely). BUMMER! I was really hoping to avoid the shots - for her sake and mine! I'm a little confused about the blood tests vs. the skin test. The vet tech said the blood tests are not as reliable but are done in about 50% of the cases when it doesn't appear the skin test works (false negatives that aren't supported by symptoms). The vet only uses the blood test for environmental allergies, not food. What I've read online does seem support using the blood tests with the skin test.

*Bad News Followed by Good News:* Tess has continued to lose weight on her ostrich diet. Every meal has been a battle (she now turns her nose at ground ostrich but will eat the steak or jerky). The vet had me add safflower oil for calories but she's eating even less since I started adding that to her food... she's eating less than 1/3 a cup a day. She's been on the ostrich diet for 3 weeks and should be on it another 9 weeks. The vet is concerned by her weight loss (about 2 pounds in 3 weeks - or 15% of her body weight) so yesterday he had me switch her over to Science Diet Ultra z/d (ultra allergen). It contains hydrolyzed protien (hadn't heard that one before) which means the protien has been broken down to a point the body won't react to it? Using this isn't as optimal as doing the home prepared ostrich but the weight loss is more dangerous than the allergies. The good news is that Tess wolfed down almost 1/2 a cup last night and then again this morning. (The little s***!) I don't know if she'll be on this permanently or not. Hopefully she doesn't start turning her nose up to this in a day or two. If that happens I think I'm going to try the cheapest, least nutritional food I can find (or whatever she would have had in the puppy mill) - I'll bet she'd love that!


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## Pixiesmom

Wow Jill. 
It must be that she's feeling better to react like she did at the dog park. Fingers crossed SOMETHING will surface for her that she will eat without itching, maybe even avoid the shots altogether. You're truly a saint for taking care of her the way you do.


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## Sheri

Jill,
It was fun to read that Tess was running and having such fun, and that it was new to her. The allergy stuff you are doing must be helping a lot! So much work, and cost, but must be so rewarding to see her respond this way!


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## mellowbo

Wow, all I can say is JILL, YOU ROCK!!!
I just read this thread for the first time. Not only are you a completely un-selfish, patient mommy but your detailed posts are amazing. 
I'm at a loss for words.........
Carole
xxoox


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## sweater32

Jill, First what is RLH? I tried putting every word together and can't come up with anything! So glad Tess and you had a blast at the park!! Bummer no camera! Personally, I don't think I could eat Ostrich everyday...yuck and you made speacial trips to go get it! I sure do give you credit! Rags was on Science Ultra z/d and never grew tired of it. However, I have never seen dogs so dang picky about food as Simba and Bailey. The same as Tess, one day they love something and gobble it up and then poof you would think I was giving them poison. I took a whole bag of Raw Lamb to a girl that works at the pet store for one smell and they walked away. DH said the other day that we should go back to store food, they never gave us a fuss before we started all this experimenting with raw, higher price, etc. I'm starting to believe he might be right. Anyhow, I hope Tess keeps eating for you and puts some of her weight back on. Are you gray or pulling your hair out yet??


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## Jill in Mich

sweater32 said:


> Jill, First what is RLH? I tried putting every word together and can't come up with anything! So glad Tess and you had a blast at the park!! Bummer no camera! Personally, I don't think I could eat Ostrich everyday...yuck and you made speacial trips to go get it! I sure do give you credit! Rags was on Science Ultra z/d and never grew tired of it. However, I have never seen dogs so dang picky about food as Simba and Bailey. The same as Tess, one day they love something and gobble it up and then poof you would think I was giving them poison. I took a whole bag of Raw Lamb to a girl that works at the pet store for one smell and they walked away. DH said the other day that we should go back to store food, they never gave us a fuss before we started all this experimenting with raw, higher price, etc. I'm starting to believe he might be right. Anyhow, I hope Tess keeps eating for you and puts some of her weight back on. Are you gray or pulling your hair out yet??


(Red bold is mine)

RLH = Run like h*** (your choice, heck or hell) :laugh:

I beginning to think your husband has the right idea. I think it's sort of like with little kids - too many choices is not a good thing. If I never let her know there was more than one choice maybe she wouldn't hold out for something better!


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## sweater32

LOL I finally figured it out on another post today!!! :doh::laugh:


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## Missy

Jill, I am grinning from ear to ear at the thought of Tess RLH for 20 minutes. I know the joy and surprise that must have brought you because I have felt that with Jasper. And I know what Cody must be thinking too, because Cash looks like "Whoa? what did you do with Jasper?"

It's really funny, because Jasper will run like hell for about 10 minutes he literally runs circles around Cash. But periodically he will come and challenge Cash to chase him... And Cash does exactly what we do to get him to run for another 5 laps... he just sort of pretends to run and then lies down again...but off Jasper goes.

I am sorry the results of the blood tests were disappointing. I hope the new food puts some weight on Sweet little tess.

I thought of you because I saw EMU jerky- what will they think of next -- not good for tess because it has rye flour

http://www.sitstay.com/dog/supplies/servlet/product_10001_10001_100913_-1_Emu+Jerky__25401_


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## JASHavanese

I think blood tests for allergies is a waste of money. I had it run on me and it missed what I was allergic to and said I was allergic to things that don't bother me.
Has anyone mentioned adding a good probiotic to the diet? If the dog is dealing with a yeast overload in the gut it will make them itch. Probiotics take care of that but it can take a while to see the effects of it. NOW acidophillis is one of the best and cheapest on the market. They have doggie probiotics but the cost is insane and there are things in there your dog doesn't need but it makes the product sound good.


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## Jill in Mich

Hi Jan,

My concern is I've spent the last year trying a variety of things to relieve Tess' symptoms with no improvement. I decided the best thing for Tess (and myself) is to work through this specialist. I like the idea of going back to very basics with her diet and then taking small, methodical steps, under his supervision, to (hopefully) figure out what the problem is. At this point, I'm not sure if we're dealing with environmental allergies, food or a combination of the two (which I suspect). If I put her on probiotics right now I would be concerned that I'm still feeding her food she's allergic to. If I get through this process and she's still symptomatic I'll feel better knowing I've tried the traditional methods and I'll also have a clear list of what I've tried and to what degree each thing has worked or not along with a good list of additional options (like probiotics).


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## JASHavanese

Jill in Mich said:


> Hi Jan,
> 
> My concern is I've spent the last year trying a variety of things to relieve Tess' symptoms with no improvement. I decided the best thing for Tess (and myself) is to work through this specialist. I like the idea of going back to very basics with her diet and then taking small, methodical steps, under his supervision, to (hopefully) figure out what the problem is. At this point, I'm not sure if we're dealing with environmental allergies, food or a combination of the two (which I suspect). If I put her on probiotics right now I would be concerned that I'm still feeding her food she's allergic to. If I get through this process and she's still symptomatic I'll feel better knowing I've tried the traditional methods and I'll also have a clear list of what I've tried and to what degree each thing has worked or not along with a good list of additional options (like probiotics).


The probiotics don't stop true allergy symptoms so that isn't a concern.
I'll tell you a little about me. I was dx with restless leg and the itching was driving me NUTS. Poor hubby got kicked all night long and there was no way I could sit through a movie or play. There were certain foods I couldn't eat without itching so I figured it was allergies.
Then I went to a dr who deals with holistic and modern medicine. She was the one who dx me with an overgrowth of yeast in the gut which was the cause of the itching from some foods I ate. The gut can leak and when it does, it creates heck on your body. 
I went on a diet that cuts the yeast in the body and took probiotics and after a while I could eat the foods I thought I was allergic to and found out I didn't have restless leg.
I am allergic to certain things and there is no way a probiotic is going to cure that or even help it a little.
Your body needs good bacteria to stay on an even keel and if the bad overtakes the good, you itch like a witch.


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## Jill in Mich

Jan,

I'm thinking that since Tess is on an elimination diet (it was pure protien but is now Science Diet Ultra z/d), if yeast is a problem wouldn't you think it would be resolved on this diet? (More so when it was just protien, not so sure now). Or least until a regular diet started back up again?


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## PepperToast

Jill,

My son had HORRIBLE yeast overgrowth in his GI tract from consuming foods he was sensitive to (not allergic). With the help of a naturopathic doctor we found out which foods he could not have. It helped when I took him off the foods he could not eat but he was also 'prescribed' a probiotic, EFA (cod liver) oil and micronized L-Glutamine twice a day to help his horribly swollen bowels heal and to help kill off the yeast that he had built up over the year or so that he ate foods that bothered him. 

None of these would have caused him a reaction (you would use safflower oil) and none of them would have stopped a reaction, they just helped his bowels recover and killed off the yeast. You should ask your doctor about this. It helped my son immensely. He used to scoot around the floor on his bottom, it was sooooooooooooooooo itchy. 

Meeka


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## JASHavanese

Jill in Mich said:


> Jan,
> 
> I'm thinking that since Tess is on an elimination diet (it was pure protien but is now Science Diet Ultra z/d), if yeast is a problem wouldn't you think it would be resolved on this diet? (More so when it was just protien, not so sure now). Or least until a regular diet started back up again?


No, you need to replace the good bacteria along with the diet. He already has this in his body, it's just adding more of it in case he is dealing with a yeast overgrowth. The yeast overgrowth can mimic food allergies and make life pure heck. Since it's already in his body what would be the harm in trying it?
You can kill off yeast with garlic also but expect to get anemic going that route and garlic isn't already in his body and isn't natural to him or his needs.
I spent years researching this and was on several lists that dealt with it. Some are just more prone to yeast in the gut than others. One reason for it is antibiotics. They kill of both good and bad bacteria and now a lot of doctors are automatically giving especially women a probiotic when they give her an antibiotic. Think about all the women that get yeast infections when they take antibiotics. That's not the only place yeast can grow, but it's an easy place to cure. The gut takes longer and it's not something you can see.
It's too bad you can't get a dog to spit. There's such a simple test for a yeast overgrowth in the gut. You just spit in a glass of water first thing in the morning before putting anything in your mouth and if it grows 'legs' on the spit, you have it. If the spit just lies there, you don't. There's one place that tests for yeast overgrowth in the gut and I can't remember the name of it but you could probably look it up online. I don't know if it would work on a dog though but you could find out. I did both the blood test and the spit test and found that they ran the same and one is as accurate as the other but one is free.
Most acidophilus is made using milk products and NOW is one of them. If your dog might be allergic to milk, I'd get one of the probiotics that isn't made using milk products.


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## Lunastar

Wondering how Tess is doing?


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## Jill in Mich

Much of what follows isn't very interesting but I'm posting for anyone researching allergies, hoping this at least gives them a feeling for the process we're using to determine and manage Tess' allergies.

We saw the allergist today. Tess' scratching/chewing/biting has gotten really bad again (8 out of 10) and she continues to lose weight - she's down to 10.8 pounds (from about 13). I was concerned she might be allergic to the Science Diet Ultra z/d food she was put on a few weeks back or that she might be reacting to all of the stress we're going through right now (with Cody's injury & surgery and Tess having to stay home alone for the past few days), or environmental allergies that are pretty bad in this area right now, and wondered how we'd ever determine what she's reacting to.

The vet explained that if it was the perscription food she was allergic to, her ear infections wouldn't have cleared up (which they have), so he's confident it's not the food. He said the stress could definitely aggravate her allergies but would not create allergies. That means we've eliminated any food allergies so now we can tell she has environmental allergies she's reacting to. (This is why I decided to see a specialist. I never would have figured all of this out on my own.)

The blood tests have indicated she has quite a few environmental allergies (trees, weeds, grasses, cockroaches, dust mites and human dander *(yes, Tess is allergic to me!!!)*. She's starting on three weeks of steroids and an immune system suppressant called Atopica (very expensive stuff!).

In the meantime she'll stay on her Ultra z/d diet. Then, if we can get the environmental allergies under control we'll start adding foods to her diet, one at a time, each over a two week period so we can determine what she's allergic to.


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## JASHavanese

Jill in Mich said:


> The vet explained that if it was the perscription food she was allergic to, her ear infections wouldn't have cleared up (which they have), so he's confident it's not the food. He said the stress could definitely aggravate her allergies but would not create allergies.


I'm glad the ear infections are cleared up. Stress may not create allergies however if your body goes out of whack from stress you can react to foods that you don't have a true allergy to but that would be more of an itching problem


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## sweater32

Jill, so sorry Tess skin allergies are acting up again. I know how helpless you feel, trying to find something to help her to be more comfortable. Rags (before the boys) had terrible skin allergies, was put on the Science Diet Ultra, RX shampoo, I gave oatmeal baths and in the end he was put on Atopica with great results. It was brand newthen. I hope it works. How is Cody doing? Tell them they need to get well because summer is here!!! How is mom holding out?


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## sweater32

I forgot.....she's allergic to you????? So you can't feed her, take her for walks, play, but you can hold her for the times she just needs some loving!!!!


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## marb42

Oh Jill, I'm so sorry for what you and Tess are going through. Thank goodness she has you for a mom, because she wouldn't get more love and care anywhere else. I really hope you figure it out.
Gina


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## Lunastar

Oh Jill I am so sorry for you and poor Tess. I hope the medications work for her and give her some relief. If they do will this be a seasonal thing only?


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## Jill in Mich

It's only been 48 hrs on the steroids and Atopica but Tess' itching has gone from an 8-9 score to 1-2! Finally after almost a year and a half of constant itching! Hopefully the Atopica will continue to work after Tess is done with the steroids in 3 weeks. 

We've tried the steroids in the past with no success. The difference this time is that we've eliminated the food allergies. Yay!!!!

No Luna, Tess' allergies are year round since she's allergic to indoor allergies (dust mites, human dander, etc.). The Atopica is something that she could be on year-round for the rest of her life, fortunately it's not a steroid so doesn't have the negative side effects of prednisone.

Keeping my fingers crossed....


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## Sheri

Jill, wonderful that Tess is itching so much less! What a huge relief for you, not to mention little Tess, herself! Yeah!!

I hope you are being able to get enough rest and care yourself. You have so much on your hands right now with Cody and Tess that it makes me feel so badly for you. Sending you a hug...


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## JASHavanese

Jill, I hope this continues to help!! Wow that's good news!


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## Lynn

I have been following this thread and thank you Jill for posting all the valuable infor and I am so glad to hear Tess is doing better with her allergies. 

I just had the blood allergy test done on Casper and he has some food allergies that showed up.


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## Jill in Mich

Lynn, there's conflicting information on whether the blood tests work for food allergies. The allergy specialist is telling me "no" - that you can only test for environmental allergies, not food allergies. Not that it will help you right now, but we'll be starting to add foods back to Tess' diet in another month. I'll let you know if it coincides to what they found in the blood test my regular vet did.


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## JASHavanese

Jill in Mich said:


> Lynn, there's conflicting information on whether the blood tests work for food allergies. The allergy specialist is telling me "no" - .


I agree. I had the full panel run on me and boy was it wrong. Things I'm really allergic to didn't show up on the test and things that don't bother me did....but my dr said he could have saved me a few hundred dollars and told me that would happen


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## marb42

:whoo:This is great news, Jill! This is great progress for Tess, and I hope her scratching and itching permanently goes away! Keep us updated.
Gina


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## Missy

Awww Jill. Great that the steroids are working so well. I bet she will be hungry too which will help her gain some weight. Will she stay on the immune suppressant for life? what will you have to watch out for since her immune system will be suppressed?

Belly rubs to sweet Tess.

Missy


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## Jill in Mich

Missy said:


> Awww Jill. Great that the steroids are working so well. I bet she will be hungry too which will help her gain some weight. Will she stay on the immune suppressant for life? what will you have to watch out for since her immune system will be suppressed?
> 
> Belly rubs to sweet Tess.
> 
> Missy


I don't know yet if we'll be doing the Atopica for life or not. It only works in 40-50% of the cases so we'll wait and see. Some of the materials I've read indicate that the frequency may be decreased (down from 1 pill a day).

Regarding concerns due to the suppressed immune system: The one thing the doctor mentioned was definitely not feeding raw because of the increased likelihood of bacteria (and therefore bacterial infection).


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## Lunastar

Jill in Mich said:


> It's only been 48 hrs on the steroids and Atopica but Tess' itching has gone from an 8-9 score to 1-2! Finally after almost a year and a half of constant itching! Hopefully the Atopica will continue to work after Tess is done with the steroids in 3 weeks.
> 
> We've tried the steroids in the past with no success. The difference this time is that we've eliminated the food allergies. Yay!!!!
> 
> No Luna, Tess' allergies are year round since she's allergic to indoor allergies (dust mites, human dander, etc.). The Atopica is something that she could be on year-round for the rest of her life, fortunately it's not a steroid so doesn't have the negative side effects of prednisone.
> 
> Keeping my fingers crossed....


Oh Jill that is great news. I hope the Atopica will work for her. It must be so wonderful to see her have some relief.


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## Jill in Mich

It's been a while since I've updated our progress with Tess' allergies. 









Tess has now been seeing the allergy specialist for 3 months. It's been a very slow, frustrating, expensive process but we are making progress. :thumb:

Negative: I've spent almost $3,800 on her treatment thus far with no end in sight. (Add the cost of Cody's knee surgery to that and the last few months have been very tough on the pocket book!)

Positive:

*Food Allergies:* Tess' food allergies have been eliminated. We don't yet know what foods she's allergic to but all of the food allergies have been eliminated from her system. She'll stay on her diet of Science Diet Ultra Allergen until at least this winter (to give us time to take care of the environmental allergies). We have continued to struggle with Tess not eating (and therefore losing weight) so she's now getting 2.5 mg of famotidine (Pepcid) a day. It's taken about 2-3 weeks but her appetite is definitely improving.

For anyone considering an elimination diet, it took about 45-60 days before her system was cleared of the food allergies. I have found it very tough to stick with the elimination diet. (Being disciplined when it comes to food is definitely not one of my strengths.) Tess is allowed absolutely nothing but ostrich and the Science Diet Ultra Allergen (added because Tess wouldn't eat a home cooked meal of ostrich and oats). No treats from other people when in stores, on walks; no bullysticks; not even Heartgard. I did find ostrich tendons (similar to bullysticks) that I give them once in a while and I make ostrich jerky for treats. I considered putting Cody on the elimination diet (I think he has some food allergies also) but decided against it. I do limit Cody's treats to what Tess is allowed. If she eats anything not on her diet, especially early on, you have to start all over again.


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## Jill in Mich

*Indoor Allergies:* I think we're managing the indoor allergies pretty well now also with the housekeeping measures I described in an earlier post. I can tell we're making progress because Tess no longer spends 5 minutes scratching when she first gets up in the morning.

*Outdoor Allergies:* Now we're trying to get the outdoor allergies under control. Tess is currently on an immune suppresant called Atopica. It's pretty expensive (about $2/pill) and has some side effects (upset stomach, diarrhea, etc.) Tess has had a couple of bouts with colitis since starting the Atopica. (I think I've linked the colitis to giving her ostrich steak for treats.) She'll probably be on the Atopica for a year (until the allergy shots take effect). The vet will do blood tests occasionally to make sure the drug isn't causing any organ damage. One of my stumbling blocks was how to give pills when you can't use the typical tricks of things like peanut butter (funny the little things you don't think much about until you can't use them). It took a while but I've found a spot in her throat where she automatically swallows it (most days!)

We just started allergy shots this week. Right now she gets a shot every other day until she gets up to a full dose (that will take about 3 weeks). At that point she'll get a shot every 2 -4 weeks (depending on how she does). It could take up to a year for the shots to take effect. The first 3 months of allergy serum cost about $250.

I've not been as diligent as I should be about wiping Tess down with a wet rag every time she's been outside. The allergist explained that allergens are definitely transferred through the skin, which is why they need to be wiped down but it's just not happening every time she's been outside.

Another small trick I'm now trying is to put socks on Tess. While her scratching/licking/chewing has gotten better, she still chews on the pad of one foot. The doctor suggested putting onesie and socks on her when she's in the house. He explained it like us scratching a mosquito bite - it feels good while you're scratching but when you stop, the itching just gets worse. The sock won't stop Tess from itching but when she chews on it the sock provides a barrier so the itching won't get worse when she's done.


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## Sheri

Tess is looking so pretty! I love her sitting on the table with the vase of flowers next to her! 

Ouch! (The cost of all this, yikes!!) I hope you get HUGE results, with all this work and expense--that Tess gets full relief, or, at least, nearly full relief! You are a determined, committed woman, Jill! This is all such hard work, and has to be SO stressful for you.

Hugs!


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## Jill in Mich

I'm sharing all of this not to discourage anyone but to make sure you know what you're getting in to. Like a typical American, I wanted immediate answers and results, but that hasn't been how it's worked for us (another one of those life lessons). I've said it before and will say it again (for my own re-assurance as much as anything). I do know we're making progress. When we started this process Tess' level of discomfort was about 8-9 on a 10 point scale. Now she's usually a 3-4 with occassional spikes to 7-8 (those darn outdoor allergies).

A very touchy subject I've been struggling with....We frequently say we would do anything for our dogs, no matter what the cost but when it really comes down to it, I think there is a limit, no matter how much the pet is loved. I'm sure the answer is different for everyone. I haven't been able to figure out how to determine that point for myself. I'm sure my financial planner would say I passed the point quite a while ago. Or what if Tess' allergies are a result of being in Michigan? Would she be better off if I sent her to live with a new family in a location like Arizona? Tess is 6.5 years old, so hopefully has another 6-7 years of life left. This isn't something that is life or death (which may or may not have made the financial decision clearer) but the allergies definitely affect her quality of life.

I don't regret taking Tess to the allergist. I would have never made this progress on my own. There are so many ideas/suggestions/possibilities out there I would never have know how to go about all of this and would probably have spent twice the money and even more time. Which I guess for now is my answer - I'll continue on this course as long as I can and hope things level off to a manageable point...soon!


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## Janizona

Hi Jill
I was just reading thru this thread and I wondered if Tess was ever tested for SA in addition to allergies? Here's a bit about SA in the Havanese breed:
http://janizonahavanese.com/SA.html


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## Jill in Mich

Thanks for the info Janet. I was almost afraid to open the link. Is there always a loss of hair and skin problems? If so, I don't think Tess has SA - I've seen no skin abnormalities, once we got the food allergies taken care of she's had no problems with her ears and there has been no signs of hair loss. She does have tear staining but that has improved slightly also. I will however print out this information and take it with me when we see the allergist next month. I know you've posted other information regarding SA and I'll continue to read that.


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## Janizona

Unfortunately there is no "always" symptom. Please drop a note to Mary Ellen and discuss it with her. She will know whether or not Tess might be considered for the study.

her email is [email protected]


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## Lunastar

Oh Jill, I am so glad Tess is improving. I can only imagine how hard all of this has been on both of you. Add Cody's knee into the mix and I'm surprised you have any sanity left. LOL I hope Tess continues to improve and does well on the shots.


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## Lynn

Jill,

I love the pictures of Tess, sounds like she is doing better.

I was wondering if you read this thread?

http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=9514

I don't know much about this but was wondering if it sounded like some of what Tess goes though?


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## Lynn

Guess that shows I don't read all the threads....looks like someone has suggested in already, but worth checking into.


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## tabby2

Jill, I just read this entire thread. You're amazing and Tess is so fortunate to have you in her corner. I know you were distressed about having to cut her hair, but she's absolutely adorable with that cut. 

Also, I think your extremely detailed posts are tremendously helpful. 

I'm so glad Tess is feeling much better thanks to your persistence. love and care. Jane


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## SMARTY

Jill in Mich said:


> I'm sharing all of this not to discourage anyone but to make sure you know what you're getting in to. Like a typical American, I wanted immediate answers and results, but that hasn't been how it's worked for us (another one of those life lessons). I've said it before and will say it again (for my own re-assurance as much as anything). I do know we're making progress. When we started this process Tess' level of discomfort was about 8-9 on a 10 point scale. Now she's usually a 3-4 with occassional spikes to 7-8 (those darn outdoor allergies).
> 
> A very touchy subject I've been struggling with....We frequently say we would do anything for our dogs, no matter what the cost but when it really comes down to it, I think there is a limit, no matter how much the pet is loved. I'm sure the answer is different for everyone. I haven't been able to figure out how to determine that point for myself. I'm sure my financial planner would say I passed the point quite a while ago. Or what if Tess' allergies are a result of being in Michigan? Would she be better off if I sent her to live with a new family in a location like Arizona? Tess is 6.5 years old, so hopefully has another 6-7 years of life left. This isn't something that is life or death (which may or may not have made the financial decision clearer) but the allergies definitely affect her quality of life.
> 
> I don't regret taking Tess to the allergist. I would have never made this progress on my own. There are so many ideas/suggestions/possibilities out there I would never have know how to go about all of this and would probably have spent twice the money and even more time. Which I guess for now is my answer - I'll continue on this course as long as I can and hope things level off to a manageable point...soon!


Thank you so much for such a detailed account of what is going on with Tess. Your journal here will be very helpful to many of us. Tess does look beautiful.

This has to be extremely stressful for you and your family. I understand that sometime we have to make difficult decisions to improve "our" quality of life. When we are doing all we can and it is not enough, we have to stop and say what about "me/us". In my life, I have spent a small fortune on our animals and do not regret one penny of it, but sometimes there comes a realization that it is time to stop. There were decisions on re-homing, letting nature take its course, or the ultimate decision to end the suffering. I do not regret any of those decisions. They were hard but right for the time and circumstances. You will know in your heart if and when there is another direction you need to take.

Thank you again for the time it has taken for you to document your experiences. I have definitely learned from your post.


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## mintchip

:grouphug: Jill,Tess and Cody :grouphug:


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## DanielBMe

Hey Jill, so how are things going?

Well it looks like I'm going down this route with Bogart and to a lesser degree Brando. Both started exihibiting signs of allergies. For both it started a few weeks ago. Bogart has licked/chewed his paw to the point where I had to take hiim to the vet to get some creme with a steroid in it. Both, but primarily Bogart, are itching and scratching like crazy. Usually the top of the paw and side of the body. Fleas have already been ruled out by the vet who very strongly believes that it's an airborne allergy. Right now they are on Benedryl but I'm going to try Chlor Tripolon as its sedating effect is greatly reduced. I'm also going to add in extra vitamin C as it's supposed to act like an anti histamine. I'll probably add some Prozyme as well. From reading your experieince I think I am going to go straight to the allergy test via the skin prick then to shots. I think I will wait til the allergy season is over and start in Oct. I've read that shots that are started after the first outbreak but before the second have a much better success rate.

I highly doubt it's the food. I've rotated their food throught their lives and never had a problem. I find it odd that both dogs would be allergic to the food at the exact same time. 

It really is torture to see your dog suffer from allergies. I had two very playful and joyful dogs up until 3 weeks ago. Now they just seem miserable. I don't think I want to use the Atopica or the other recommended steriod shots just yet. I'll leave those as a last resort.


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## RikiDaisyDixie

*Daniel, if you find out what it is, please let me know...*

As you probably know, Daisy suffers from the same. This year I clipped her down to the skin to make sure she wasn't a mess of mats. No fleas, the best foods, and bathing in the best of soothing shampoos.

It is the grass and the air in Southern California. We did get a few fleas this year late in the season for the first time ever, which made it worse...

I do hope we can find a solution for our suffering kids.


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## RikiDaisyDixie

*changing places*

There was a dog in havanese rescue who moved to a dryer climate and did much better. This poor girl had severe allergies. She isn't perfect, but she has more relief.

Maybe we need to move too.


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## Chasza

Jill,

You can move down south with me.....I'll just ask that you keep my house as clean as you are keeping yours :laugh:

Seriously, I would love for the dust to stay out of my house.....but I hate cleaning it b/c then I sneeze for hours!! I really need to clean more than I do!!

I just wanted to give a quick blurb about something you wrote last month. You said you didn't even give Heartgard. I have a food/flea allergy girl and my understanding is that both the Heartgard chewables and the Interceptor are beef flavored, but with a pork base. I think the beef is an artificial flavor based off of real pork meat. However, the Heartgard does make an unflavored pill that can be used. I have to order mine, as no vets would carry this locally. So, you do still have a heartworm option on a strict elimination diet. You shouldn't just give one, tho, after being off of it for awhile, without discussing this with your vet. I think that there is still heartworm problems in the north, so I wanted you to be aware of this.

I am not doing the enviornmental shots as I think her biggest issues are food and fleas. I do know that if she is having a hard time with these, then the pollen sets her off -- but if these are under control, these she seems to handle the pollen alright. But we haven't solved all the issues -- things are better, but it feels like we are just on a continual management basis with them, and not actually solving the problem as of yet. Ups and downs, ups and downs........but I am happy the ups and downs this summer aren't nearly as bad as the last two summers -- but I think that is more 'management' by giving new products (Comfortis for fleas, homeopathic "hives" blend by Hylands when she is biting, etc). Problem with fleas is that one saliva bite gets into the bloodstream and then that sets her off for days........

Hey....that just made me wonder something........Do you think they have shots for flea dermatitis? That they have something for the allergy to the protein in the flea saliva??????? We have been fighting this for years.....this would be a great help. 

Would you mind asking your specialist when you visit next time?? 

Thanks!

Lynn


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## DanielBMe

When you say a single flea bite can set her off, can you actually see this single flea bite. I would love to rule this out but not sure if I'd be able to see a single flea bite. Both have no rashes or red marks that I can see, other than where they are scratching. If they were set off by a flea bite how long does the outbreak of scratching last? Days or weeks?

Trust me if I thought it would hep my dogs, I think I would move. I've been looking at New Zealand...


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## Jill in Mich

Daniel....I feel your pain! Seems sort of strange that both Brando & Bogart started having allergies at the same time???? I think if it was me, I'd hold off on having the skin prick test done yet. Maybe wait through a full year to see if the boys have problems year round or if it's seasonal? Once you start down the road of the skin testing it's a long, expensive haul. Tess had symptoms year round. I've been talking to a lot of people recently who's dogs seem to be having allergy problems right now. Like you, their dogs are scratching/biting/chewing all of a sudden. A friend's dog has also chewed his paw raw. I also just saw a program with recommendations for dealing with this allergy season - it was most of the things the vet has me doing - dusting & vacuuming weekly, freezing toys for 24-hours weekly, bathing in medicated shampoos weekly, etc. I do think these things have helped Tess.

Lynn....once we have Tess' food allergies under control I'll be able to put her back on Heartgard but I will ask about the unflavored pill. Right now Tess is on Revolution but I would feel better if I could put her back on the Heartgard/Frontline combination. I'll also ask about shots for fleas dermatitis.

Tess' allergy serum covers: housedust, mattress dust, dust mites, birch, maple, sycamore, elm, grass mix, ragweed mix, west waterkemp, thistleweed, and dock/sorrell.


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## Jill in Mich

DanielBMe said:


> Trust me if I thought it would hep my dogs, I think I would move. I've been looking at New Zealand...


Hmmmm, New Zealand. You may have the solution! I'm sure the dogs would do much better in that environment. It would be a huge sacrifice on your part, but we do what we have to!:wink:


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## DanielBMe

It certainly better not be year long! Well the problem with holding off on the injections is that if they are seasonal allergies, then they will go through this again next year and again and again. From what I've read, it only gets worse not better. I'd rather deal with it while it's still early in its progression. As mentioned earlier I've read evidence of shots having a higher success rate on dogs that have experienced only one outbreak. Once they hit 2 or 3 seasons, then it becomes less effective.

I do vacuum my place and clean the floors twice a week already. I also wash my bed sheets regularly since my dogs sleep on my bed. I even vacuum my couch (which is starting to look dirty...my dogs come in with wet feet in the morning and promptly chase each other all over the place and jump on my couch) weekly.


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## DanielBMe

Jill in Mich said:


> Hmmmm, New Zealand. You may have the solution! I'm sure the dogs would do much better in that environment. It would be a huge sacrifice on your part, but we do what we have to!:wink:


I tried doing a seach on New Zealand and summer allergies for dogs but couldn't find anything...hmm that may be a good thing? But I did read that dogs have to go into a 30 day quarantine ~yikes~


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## Missy

New Zealand? think of the the access you will have to fresh venison and lamb for the boys!!! In your other thread, you mentioned you changed shampoo. It could take more than a week or a few washings to heal what is already itchy. I agree with Jill. Having allergies myself Daniel, sometimes knowing is worse than not... one thing leads to another and then another and if it is seasonal sometimes medication is less invasive than shots. Have you tried an antihistamine yet? It is possible that it is an allergic reaction to a flea, or mosquito, or fly bite...the bite may be long gone but the reaction has taken over (I had a doctor tell me it was an allergic reaction to an allergic reaction)

I hear you about the couch... we are trying to decide whether to have a slip cover made or by a new couch...man these Neezers are expensive... new couches relocating to New Zealand...


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## Chasza

Daniel,

No, there is no physical evidence of fleas, other than the response by the dog. For dogs that have FAD - Flea Allergic Dermatitis, they groom themselves so much that they might ingest the flea and the flea dirt itself. There was a time in the past when I couldn't figure out what was wrong with her -- her symptoms were bad, it was flea season, yet grooming with a flea comb wouldn't even show any flea dirt at all. Then I found out it was because of her cleaning herself that she would ingest the evidence. This increase in her reaction is seasonal for us -- starts mildly in late April/early may, and by the first of June, she will have bleeding sores if I don't give her stuff for it - lasts thru fall. So, I know it's fleas. I am in the south, so I am sure our flea season is longer than yours.

Even with giving her flea medications that kills the fleas, this does not stop the reaction. It only takes one flea bite, and any new fleas on the dogs will bite before they are killed off with any medication. I do not know how long a reaction will last -- my guess is two or three weeks, but this is only a guess as I could not find any information on the longevity of a allergic response. My guess is based on food allergies, and just a complete guess. With my girl, another flea is biting soon enough that the situation lasts for months altogether.

The last two years, we had to go thru bottles and bottles of topcial steriod spray for the open, bleeding hotspots and she would lose most of her hair on the lower 1/3 of her back. I don't think I have used any spray for the last few months. I started using Comfortis that kills any fleas (but they still bite first), and I use the Hyland's "Hives" blend only when she is really, seriously biting. She has kept most of her hair on her back this year as well. 

Your dogs reaction could still be to the shampoo that you mentioned, or fleas, or the particular pollen that is in the air now. Pollen and weeds and molds all change thruout the seasons, so it could be any of the above. At this point, I would not assume it is fleas since you live so far up north (I could be wrong about assuming you don't have big flea issues up there?), so will assume it is one of the other things. Either way, the things mentioned in your other posts might help alleviate the symptoms in the meantime. Of course I don't know for sure, but I suspect in a few weeks, your guys will be back to normal. (oh, do make sure no one has sprayed your yard or house for insects or such since they might be having a chemical reaction and make sure no one has changed clothes detergents or is using house scented candles and such -- just to be cautious).

I do suggest you mark on a calendar when they started having problems and see if this repeats next year or the year after. I will be suprised if they aren't better in a few weeks -- but still do what you can to lessen their response now. The more they bite and scratch, the more their skin will itch, and then the more they will bite.....so even if it was the shampoo which you aren't using anymore, even so, you need to stop the cycle of biting as best you can since some biting tends to lead to even more biting.

Jill,

Thanks for checking on that for me. I am not particularly fond of Revolution for dogs, but glad it is working out alright for you. I have read some negative reports about reactions, so please do keep an eye out for this. I am not trying to scare you, as every dog reacts differently....I just recall reading negative stuff on it a few years ago. I am using the unflavored Heartgard tablets and Comfortis. Since Comfortis is new, and my guys have weird reactions to drugs, it was a difficult decision to make. But, I felt like I didn't have any choice in the matter, and gave it this season. She has done well on it, without any bad reactions (she has had reactions to topical Advantage before). Capstar works well on them, and last year I must have bought around $150 of Capstar and had to give it to her every other day for a couple of weeks, and repeated again a month later. Comfortis is a different drug, so I was hesitant....but she has done very well on it and I am so glad. She is still having problems, but sooo much better this year than last. I am so glad of that....so I understand how you are feeling. Frustrated that you are still dealing with it, but happy there is improvement.

Lynn


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## Jill in Mich

Missy said:


> I hear you about the couch... we are trying to decide whether to have a slip cover made or by a new couch...man these Neezers are expensive... new couches relocating to New Zealand...


I agree - just when I think it's safe to buy new furniture or replace the carpeting one of them vomits on the couch or has diarrhea on the carpet - Tess has done both in the last two days.


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## DanielBMe

In regards to the Benadryl, how long does it take for full effectiveness? Does it take a few days until it really starts to help or should I see an immediate difference...if it's going to work that is.

I don't think it's the shampoo. I washed them twice in the last 2 days and it didn't seem to make a difference.


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## RikiDaisyDixie

*itchy dogs in Southern Cal*

I've asked my friends, and it seems only the smaller breeds with "hair" not coat are having the big issues. Maybe shedding or something helps...our dogs hold on to whatever is in the air or environment.

If anyone finds a solution please post it with many stars.

Linda


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## Jill in Mich

DanielBMe said:


> In regards to the Benadryl, how long does it take for full effectiveness? Does it take a few days until it really starts to help or should I see an immediate difference...if it's going to work that is.
> 
> I don't think it's the shampoo. I washed them twice in the last 2 days and it didn't seem to make a difference.


I think if the Benadryl is going to work it should have been within 45 minutes. Benadryl never seemed to help Tess. Regarding trying to get the shampoo off of them, from what I understood from the allergist what happens is that once the skin/system gets inflammed it can be hard to break the cycle. For example, he explained Tess' chewing on her paws being like us scratching a misquito bite - it feels really good to scratch it at that moment but really just makes the itching worse. The other issue could be that you can't wash off what has gotten into their system. Have you tried a perscription? I think they sort of numb the skin so that it can settle down? I use a perscription shampoo on Tess and it definitely helps her.


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## DanielBMe

I'm going to get Brando trimmed down on Wednesday, although I probably should do Bogart first but Brando really feels the hot weather more so than Bogart.

Hmm I just read that you should give the Benadryl 10 days and if it doesn't help by then to try a different one. I'm only on day 2 so I'll give it a bit longer. I know for my summer allergies I usually start taking Reactine in May before my allergies start and take it till Sept. I find that works best for me as it needs to build up in the system. I was at the drug store the other day and there's a product for allergies which is a creame that goes on the nose. Apparently it stops the allergen from being inhaled. If it worked, it would be nice if they came up with one for dogs.

I still can't wrap my head around how both dogs could develop the same thing at the exact same time. To me it just seems way to odd to me. Maybe I'll try the medicated shampoo on Bogart and see if it helps. I think you can get them at the pet store.


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## DanielBMe

Jill, just curious if your vet mentioned anything about Rush Immunotherapy? 


> Rush Immunotherapy Study is a Success!
> 
> Bob McCaskill, DVM, MPH, DACVPM
> Health Committee
> 
> Summer, 2005
> 
> Dr. Ralf S. Mueller and his researchers at Colorado State University's College of Veterinary Medicine report that their research into determining the success rate of rush immunotherapy in canine atopic dermatitis (skin allergy) was successful.
> 
> The study attempted to determine the success rate of rush immunotherapy (allergy shots given over an extremely short induction period of one to three days) in dogs with atopic dermatitis, compared with conventional immunotherapy (allergy shots with an induction period of several months). The goals were to determine if rush immunotherapy leads to a quicker reduction in allergic symptoms than conventional immunotherapy and to determine specific cellular immunology of T helper cells.
> 
> Dr. Mueller's final report indicated that rush immunotherapy not only had a higher success rate than conventional immunotherapy but it also had a more rapid response, thereby bringing much quicker relief to atopic dogs that respond to immunotherapy. They also evaluated changes in blood cells and cytokine production that will help us understand the disease better.
> 
> Dr. Mueller and his team recommends that owners and veterinarians consider rush immunotherapy as a replacement for conventional immunotherapy in all dogs undergoing treatment due to the higher success rate and faster response.
> 
> Publications: The clinical part of their study ("Rush and conventional allergen-specific therapy in canine atopic dermatitis") was submitted for publication in Advances in Veterinary Dermatology V. The Westie Foundation of America and the Morris Animal Health Foundation were cosponsors of this study.


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## Jill in Mich

Hmmmm, I've never heard of Rush Immunotherapy. When I did shots the first time around with Tess (based on the blood tests run by my regular vet) it took months to get up to the full dosage. I hadn't taken care of her food allergies yet so we really didn't see any improvement with the shots. This time (with the allergiest) we were at full dosage in less than 30 days - I don't know if that would qualify for Rush or not - sounds like something in between. The research on changes in blood cells and cytokine production also sounds interesting.

I agree with you - it just seems way too odd for both Brando & Bogart to develop allergies at the same time.


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## DanielBMe

Well today has definitely been better. Bogart has been sleeping and going longer without scratching. Same as Brando.

Here's what I've done so far.

After reading about nasal flushes for people with allergies, I thought about it...NO I didn't give a nasal flush to my boys lol, but what I did do is when they come in from outside wipe them down with the Nature's Miracle Doggy Wipes and wipe their nose, mouth and beard. I've also only walked them on our normal usual walk, no different routes as I had been doing.

Besides the Benadryl, 12.5mg twice a day, I've added non dairy Probiotics and 250mg of vitamin C to their food. The vitamin c is only given in the morning. I also bought a natural anti itch spray that seems to work for some quick relief. 

I'm going to continue on this route for awhile and see what happens. Right now my mom comes by around 11am and stays with the dogs till I come home. That way I don't have leave a cone on bogart all day. When I leave for work, I put the cone on. Bogart just lets me put it on and then goes to his bed and lies down. No fuss or trouble. The problem is next week. If I can't leave Bogart alone without scratching, then I'll have to leave the cone on him for the 10hrs while I'm at work. I really don't want to do that. 

Just a question on the shots. Do you find it stressfull on Tess at all. I would think the initial sedation and test might be, but the shots really shouldn't as far as I can tell. I read that some places will teach you how to administer the shots yourself so you don't have to go to the vet which can also be a source of stress. 

Also if you don't mind me asking, how much was the allergy test itself? Did you do the epidermal for the second test? Everything I read about the blood test indicates that it gives too many false positives. I would assume you also have to pay for the serum. Do they just charge you one large fee which includes everything including the vet giving the shots or do you pay each time you do a shot? Just curious as to how that works.


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## Jill in Mich

I give Tess the shots myself. I don't think it's very stressful on her, she doesn't especially like it but most of the time there isn't any reaction to the needle. For the first 28 days she was getting a shot every other day, now she gets a shot once a week. We're on the 2nd week of full dose, we see the doctor again in 2 weeks. At some point we'll start stretching out the time between shots, I'm just not sure when that will be. Once or twice she has flinched when the needle went in, once she tried to nip me - I obviously didn't put the needle in properly. Occassionally her flank twitches when the serum goes in but nothing serious. When I gave her the shots last year I gave her benadryl 45 minutes before giving her the shots, this time I don't have to do anything, I just make sure I give it to her when I'll be with her for at least a couple of hours. I've not seen any side effects from the shots. The information I got this time said that the dog might be more itchy a day or two following the shots but so far I'm not seeing that either. My process has been slower and more expensive than you would have to go through since Tess also had food allergies and the doctor wanted to take care of those first to see how much of an improvement there was. Then we tried some of the medications to see how she did on those. Here is an abbreviated list of our timing and costs just related to the skin test, blood test (done with skin test) and then serum. 

Costs:
Mid April: Sedation & Prick Test $822.50
ELISA Blood Test $275.25
Early July: Initial Serum $300.85
(includes $36.30 for dust mites) 

It looks like the serum will probably last about 2 months? I don't know the cost of the maintenance serum (when I was doing the shots with my regular vet the refill was $201.50). Tess has been seeing the allergist every 4-6 weeks ($100.25/visit). The goal is to have the allergies under control to the point we only need to see the allergist once a year.


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## Jill in Mich

Jill in Mich said:


> Here is an abbreviated list of our timing and costs just related to the skin test, blood test (done with skin test) and then serum.
> 
> Costs:
> Mid April: Sedation & Prick Test $822.50
> *ELISA Blood Test $275.25*
> Early July: Initial Serum $300.85
> (includes $36.30 for dust mites)


The blood test was done to confirm the results of the prick test. If I understood correctly, although the blood test is not as reliable as the skin test, the blood test can provide confirmation - the body can sometimes suppress a reaction to the allergen during the skin test and the doctor was suspicious when she didn't react to mold (since she was allergic to so many other things). The blood test confirmed Tess is not allergic to mold.


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## Jill in Mich

DanielBMe said:


> Well today has definitely been better. Bogart has been sleeping and going longer without scratching. Same as Brando.
> 
> Here's what I've done so far.
> 
> After reading about nasal flushes for people with allergies, I thought about it...NO I didn't give a nasal flush to my boys lol, but what I did do is *when they come in from outside wipe them down with the Nature's Miracle Doggy Wipes and wipe their nose, mouth and beard. * I've also only walked them on our normal usual walk, no different routes as I had been doing....


_(Bold red is mine)_ I think that's a great idea Daniel. It makes sense to wipe down their nose/mouth/beard - there have got to be allergens collecting there. Tess no longer chews her feet, now she licks/bites the inside of her thighs and butt so I put her in the tub and hose off her feet, legs and butt and then wipe her down, plus taking special care with the eyes/nose/mouth. I definitely think it's helping. The allergist told me you don't see nearly as many environmental allergies in large dogs because their faces aren't as close to the ground picking up all of that stuff.


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## DanielBMe

> The allergist told me you don't see nearly as many environmental allergies in large dogs because their faces aren't as close to the ground picking up all of that stuff.


Funny, I read that you don't see Great Danes with these types of allergies since they are so far off the ground lol

BTW I sent an email to the dermitologist, where I would go if I do go the vaccination route, about rush immunotherapy and the conventional type. Here's his response


> Actually, we do neither. We use an emulsion extract which offers a more rapid, one vial induction that allows for larger volumes of allergen specific immunotherapy


Never heard of this. I just sent a follow up email to ask about its success rate and if there's any info on net he could point me to.


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## Jill in Mich

Daniel, I'll be very interested to hear about the emulsion extract. Tess had a 3 vial induction.


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## DanielBMe

Unfortunately the vet's response was "Unfortunately, there is little on the web. I can show you a textbook discussion (from the primary Veterinary Dermatology text) at the appointment if you are interested".

If I do go this route I will make an appt with him, but that won't be for a bit. I want to see how Bogart does over the next week. I get a pollen report every day from the Weather Network. It tells you the grass, ragweed count etc. Today Ragweed is high...and I can feel it today...it's a good way to monitor what is causing Bogart's problems.

http://www.theweathernetwork.com/pollenfx/poyyz


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## DanielBMe

Well last night Bogart was able to sleep through most of the night without need for the cone. This morning I took the dogs out and did my usual routine.

As I was coming into work, I noticed my eyes were itchy. I checked the pollen report as indicated above and found that the ragweed count is high today. Just called my mom and she told me that both guys are scratching quite a bit this morning. I will keep track to see if this is a pattern.


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## DanielBMe

Here's an allergy tracker I created using the pollen report from The Weather Network in case someone else is going through this.


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## Jane

Great chart, Daniel. I ended up making something similar to track Lincoln's food, meds, and symptoms when I was trying to figure out his allergy problem last year. It took me several months! 

He ended up being allergic to morning glories and sweet potatoes - which are in the same botanical family, strangely enough. Scout was dragging in morning glory seed pods and then they'd both munch on them. We'd planted them in earlier years, but since we didn't have Scout bringing them in, we never realized Lincoln was allergic to them. 

Keep at it and be patient - observations and data gathering are critical to the process!


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## DanielBMe

Well I spoke to the breeder where I got Bogart from. Turns out that one other pup from the same litter developed allergies last year. Fearing that it might be heriditary, Bogart's sire was fixed.

I gave the breeder my name and number to pass along to the other owner, just in case there's any info we can share. I'm definitely going to make an appt with the dermatologist I spoke about above as soon as possible. I want as much info as possible and that way when I decide what to do, it's done.


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## Jill in Mich

DanielBMe said:


> Well I spoke to the breeder where I got Bogart from. Turns out that one other pup from the same litter developed allergies last year. Fearing that it might be heriditary, Bogart's sire was fixed.
> 
> I gave the breeder my name and number to pass along to the other owner, just in case there's any info we can share. I'm definitely going to make an appt with the dermatologist I spoke about above as soon as possible. I want as much info as possible and that way when I decide what to do, it's done.


Well that's discouraging to find out Bogart may have inherited allergies. Early on there's always the hope that it's just a one time thing. At least now you have some answers and it sounds like you have a great plan in place to take care of the problem for both of your boys. If you can, keep posting the information you find here, I have a feeling more and more dogs/people are going to have to deal with allergies. Good Luck Daniel.


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## DanielBMe

I don't think allergies are heriditary. From my standpoint, I'm the only one in my family who has developed allergies. Personally, I think it's more environmental than anything else.

I wonder if those that live closer to big cities, hence more overal pollution, have a higher rate of allergies.


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## Jill in Mich

I don't know about the big city factor but according to my vet (and some reading I've done) there is evidence that allergies may be hereditary.


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## DanielBMe

I actually found something that indicated it is possible to inherit allergies. That quite surprised me!

I have an appt with the Dermatologist next Thursday. Lots to discuss!


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## Jill in Mich

You're really moving on this quickly - what a great Havadad! It will be good to have information from more than one specialist on here - just the information you've found so far has been very helpful for me too. Keep it up! I'll be anxiously awaiting the results of you appointment. Wouldn't it be nice if the dermatologist told you it was just a one-time thing and bothy guys won't need any medical intervention? Are you taking both Brando & Bogart to the doctor?


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## Janizona

Jill in Mich said:


> I don't know about the big city factor but according to my vet (and some reading I've done) there is evidence that allergies may be hereditary.


FWIW, I agree.


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## DanielBMe

> You're really moving on this quickly


Well, everything I read seems to indicate that allergies only get worse as the years go by and that the earlier you can deal with immunotherapy the better the results.

So if next year things get worse, it's only going to make life miserable for both my dogs and myself. No way I want to deal with this again next year. Unfortunately, the money will come from next year's vacation...so no vacation for me next year ~sigh~


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## DanielBMe

Just received an email from Bogart's sister's owner. Turns out Molly's allergy was food related afterall. 

Thursday can't come soon enough. It's so hard to see Bogart so miserable. It just breaks my heart.  He's seems to be getting a bit of a rash on his underside. One of his eyelids looks a bit red too. I switched them from Benadryl to Chlor Tripolon. It seems to be helping a bit more than the Benadryl.


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## DanielBMe

So I had my visit with the Dermatologist today. We spoke about allergies and how difficult they are to get to the root of. You could have a minor allergy to say beef and a minor seasonal allergy, which when combines can cause a big reaction. Pollens can cross mix with all types of foods, etc. It really is very difficult to determine the problem without going through specifics steps to rule out various items. 

He looked over Bogart very closely and took a cytology of some skin from Bogart's paw which was a bit scaley which he was suprised to find. He found inflammatory cells and occasional Malassezia (yeast) was seen. There were a small number of acantholytic keratinocytes seen on the sample. These are more commonly seen with immune mediated disease but can be seen with other infections. However, the clinical presentation is not typical for the disease so more than likely it can be ruled out.

He found that 2 dogs affected at the same time a bit suspicious for a contagious disease such as parasites, ringworm (fungal). 

He felt that doing an allergy test now would probably be a wasted effort until we rule some other things out. I agree. For right now I will do the following.

Keep Bogart and Brando on Bison for another month.
Apply Revolution in the following weeks 0, 2,6 for Bogart and 0,4 for Brando and my cat. They all have to be treated at the same time. If there is an external parasite the revolution should get rid of it.

Also I need to wash Bogart twice a week with a medicated shampoo which is an antibacterial/antifungal, removes scales and crust. Then immediatly after I have to also use a Malaket shampo (another medicated shampoo which is an antiseptic). Then use an Oatemeal leave in conditioner. 

Finally before bed, I have to soak their feet in Buro-sol. It's for skin inflammation, itching, rashes and infection.

He also suggested a "t-shirt" therapy. He said you would be suprised to find how many dogs do much better when wearing a t-shirt outside. It prevents many of the allergens from coming in contact with the skin. Unfortunately it's too warm for my guys to wear a t-shirt so I will forgo this option.

All this for just $500. Plus of course the heartworm test I have to do for my cat so I can get the revolution for her. 

I'm exhausted today....~sigh~


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## Jill in Mich

I'm exhausted for you Daniel. While you didn't get any answers it sounds like the doctor at least gave you a good game plan for trying to determine exactly what the problem is. 

I hope these things you're starting bring quick relief to the boys. Do you go back to see the dermatologist in a few weeks?


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## DanielBMe

Back in 6 weeks. The problem is by then ragweed season is over so the question is, if the symptoms disappear, was it the ragweed or the revolution and shampoo mix? We may have to wait until next year to find out.


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## SMARTY

Daniel you are a great doggie daddy. Hopefully these efforts will do the trick.


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## DanielBMe

I was just walking the dogs this morning and bumped into this lady who owns a labradoodle mix. She told me her dog was suffering the exact same symptoms as Bogart and Brando, scratching, chewing the paw to the skin, chewing the thighs etc. She's giving him a steriod pill for the last week but says he's still scratching quite a bit but far less than before. She told me that her vet has seen 5 other dogs in the past week with the same symptoms saying that it's been one of the worst seasons for allergies he's seen in years.

Yesterday was a bad day for both Bogart and Brando even though I washed them both with the medicated shampoos and leave in Oatmeal conditioner. I think part of the problem was that I left my doors and windows all open throughout the day rather than have on the air con. Problem with with the leave in conditioner I was told not to blow dry the dogs since the heat makes them more itchy, yet if I left on the air, it would have taken them like 10hrs to dry.


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## SMARTY

Daniel, I was hoping you were going to say it was a chemical the city had sprayed with or something and was a temporary problem. I wonder what is so different with conditions this year?


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## Jill in Mich

Daniel, I have found the same thing with leaving my windows open - Tess definitely scratches more when the windows are open and is much more comfortable when the air conditioning is on (now that I've taken care of the house allergies). Problem is, I hate the air conditioning and love the windows open! 

I've also had quite a few neighbors mention how bad the allergies have been for themselves and their dogs this year. It doesn't help any except to explain why Tess is itching more this week.

Thanks for the info on not blow drying. I didn't know that, but it does make sense.


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## Chasza

I realize it would take a long time, but could you blow dry on cool without the heat? Maybe by putting a cool fan on the dogs (away from their eyes so it won't dry the eyes out)? Could you do this and leave the air conditioner off so maybe it wouldn't make them too cold? 

That is a tough situation. I think between the choices of washing and letting them be exposed to the outdoor air and not washing them at all....I think I would compromise by not doing so many full baths, but replace some of the baths by just rubbing a wet handtowel over them to pick up the top layer of allergens. Do you think they have improved enough that you might could do this in place of some of the baths?


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## Jill in Mich

Chasza said:


> I realize it would take a long time, but could you blow dry on cool without the heat? Maybe by putting a cool fan on the dogs (away from their eyes so it won't dry the eyes out)? Could you do this and leave the air conditioner off so maybe it wouldn't make them too cold?
> 
> That is a tough situation. I think between the choices of washing and letting them be exposed to the outdoor air and not washing them at all....*I think I would compromise by not doing so many full baths, but replace some of the baths by just rubbing a wet handtowel over them to pick up the top layer of allergens. Do you think they have improved enough that you might could do this in place of some of the baths?*


(Highlighting is mine.) I don't know about Daniel but in Tess' case, she is wiped down with a wet towel every time she's been outside but must have a full bath, with the medicated shampoo, at least once a week - not only to get the allergens fully out of her hair but also to treat the skin. Tess' itching definitely increases by the end of the week when it's time for her next bath.


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## DanielBMe

Unfortunately, the vet has me under strict rules. I have to wash Bogart twice a week with two medicated shampoos. Brando once a week. Today has been much better for them. 

BTW allergens are at their worst from 10am to 4pm so try to take your dogs out at other times. Also, the vet mentioned that putting a tshirt on the dog when you take them out, can also do wonders since the allergens won't make it into the skin.


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## Mijo's Mom

Great idea on the t-shirt Daniel! I just brought Guapo to the vet yesterday for allergies too. He has chewed one spot on his wrist badly poor guy! We got the antihistamine and small dose of steroid because I can't stand to see him biting and scratching anymore. There's a homeopathing remedy that my vet says a colleague of hers swears by. I'm thinking of trying it next year. Out of curiosity, when did your guys' allergies start??? I think Guapo's started in late May/early June.


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## DanielBMe

My guys both started in late July and gotten progressively worse. I really don't like the idea of the steriods especially if it's going to be for June-Oct. That's way too long to be on steriods for me. If it was for only one month max, that wouldn't be too bad but the long term effects on the liver and kidney are unknown really when taking them for longer. 

I've tried all sorts of things for my guys, increase EPA (fish oil), vitamin C, wiping them down, Chlortripolon etc. None of them really work. Altogether the lessen the symptoms but not enough for me to leave them alone while I'm at work. The lady I met today, whose dog is on the steriod pill, says it makes her dog drink lots of water and he has to pee every 4 hrs. 

Oddly enough today was the day I put revolution on guys and so far I think it's been the best day for them in awhile. Granted I also have them wearing a tshirt at home. Somehow just putting on the tshirt on them takes their mind of scratching. As soon as I take it off, the start to scratch, put it back on, they don't.


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## ama0722

Last year when Belle went through allergies for the first time (I am hoping she adjusted to the new climate this year) I was told right when allergy season starts give dogs liquid benadryl. It is weird that this is the first time they have gone through this and both of them though?


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## Jill in Mich

One of the things I've been wondering about....the allergist recommended I have Tess' coat cut short, especially her legs. He suggested the legs be shaved like a poodle cut. He said the reason for this was that with a long coat Tess was just a little mop, picking up every allergen possible. He has also told me that the allergens are absorbed through the skin.

My question....while I understand that she would pick up more allergens in a long coat, wouldn't the long coat be more likely to keep the allergens away from her skin?


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## Jill in Mich

Daniel, interesting that you mentioned the boys have been scratching less with the shirts on. The allergist explained that the covering protects the skin somewhat from their biting/scratching. If they able to "scratch the itch" directly it just irritates the skin more, making it itchier. I wonder if that's what happening...


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## Sheri

Jill in Mich said:


> One of the things I've been wondering about....the allergist recommended I have Tess' coat cut short, especially her legs. He suggested the legs be shaved like a poodle cut. He said the reason for this was that with a long coat Tess was just a little mop, picking up every allergen possible. He has also told me that the allergens are absorbed through the skin.
> 
> My question....while I understand that she would pick up more allergens in a long coat, wouldn't the long coat be more likely to keep the allergens away from her skin?


Jill, I wondered about that, too, while reading your intensive, ongoing process of helping Tess with allergies, and now Daniel, too. Seems like a downward spiral about the cut-short coat vs longer, protective coat...


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## Lunastar

Wow I'm finally trying to catch up here. I can't believe how exhausting all this is just reading about it. My old dog Niki had allergies she would literally lick herself bloody. The only thing that would help her was predisone. She did very well on it for the three months she would have to take it. She was a medium size dog though. As she aged the pred had more adverse effects, she would drink lots of water and occassion wouldn't make it out the door. My Bella had an allergic reaction that caused her feet to swell and was on the pred for three weeks and did not do as well. She drank alot from the second day on and her appetite was out of control to the point it changed her personality.


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## DanielBMe

Actually allegens are both airborne and absorbed through the skin. It depends on the allergen. But definitely keeping the hair long just collects the allergens and brings them into the home. Plus once it gets into the hair it will work it's way down to the skin, as well if the dog licks itself scratches it's ears etc, it just spreads the allergens.

Definitely the more they scratch the more they itch. No different than when I scratch an itch. The main thing I have the tshirt on is to stop them from scratching and causing a secondary infection which becomes very likely. The problem with wearing a tshirt all day...matts! I take it off half way through the day to comb them out a bit, then put it back on.


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## teena

*Benadryl and allergies*

Has any one used Benadryl on there Hav for allergies? If so what was the dosage and what were the results? I had a pet health food store person say that it was useful for allergies but I wonder.... Thanks for all the allergy info I to have a 6 year old male (Tim) that has just started having allergies this year.


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## DanielBMe

Yes Benadryl can be used. I had Bogart and Brando on 12mg chld's tablet twice a day. I didn't find it worked much for either. It did make them a bit drowsy though. I've switched both to 4mg Chlortripolon 3 times a day. Seems to work better.

You really need to discuss the dosage with your vet though. Just to be safe.


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## teena

*Allergies*

Thanks for the benadryl info. I am heading to the vet and love to have plenty of info before I get there


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## DanielBMe

Just an update on Bogart and Brando. Allergy season here has pretty much come to an end. Not fully but the grasses and pollens are very very low.

Both have pretty much stopped scratching for the most part. They still scratch a bit but it is much reduced. I stopped feeding them the Bison and went back to my raw about 2 weeks ago. I figured that with the switch in food, the medicated baths, extra fish oil and vitamin C, and antihistamines, I wouldn't really know what was causing the problem. I figured if I went back to my food and they stopped scratching after the allergy season was over, then I could immediatly rule out a food allergy.

Since switching back to their food, their was no increase in scratching. They still were on the decline. I also stopped giving them antihistamines the other day to see what happens. So far it's still pretty good. 

The one concern I have right now is Bogart's paws hair on his legs. His paws/legs are still pretty reddish/pinkish in colour. It also looks like the hair on his legs has also turned a bit reddish/pinkish. It really sticks out when his hair gets wet. Definitely looks like there's some hair loss going on too. 

The next 2-3 weeks should tell me more...


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## Jill in Mich

Glad to hear things are going better Daniel. I hope Bogart's hair grows back. The reddish/pinkish stain may be there for quite a while. Tess stopped chewing on her paws about 4 months ago, once we got the food allergies under control, and while it's fading , her paws are still discolored (especially when she's wet). 

I'm also glad to hear your allergy season is almost over, hopefully that means we're just a few weeks behind you. Tess allergies have been really bad since early September. She's also been having an allergic reaction to the allergy shots. I took her to the allergist last week and he's taken her off of the Atopica and Benadryl, cut back dramatically on the allergy shot dosage and temporarily put her on steroids.

As much as I've been trying to avoid the steroids they've made a huge difference. Her itching has gone from a 8-9 to a 0-1. Tess and I both needed a break from all of the pills and shots, especially since they weren't helping. The steroid dosage will gradually decline over the next 6 weeks. Hopefully by then the worst of the allergy season will be over and Tess won't need the steroids.


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## teena

*Seems to be working*

Tim has been on 2 mg of Chlortrimiton twice a day for about two weeks and he seems to be less itchy on most days. He gets an oatmeal bath every other day and topical hydrocortizone on red hot spots. He has been avoiding the grass and using the concrete patio which is ok as long as he quits itching and chewing. The vet wants to do a allergy panel but we can't afford it right now so we are doing the next best thing. Hopefully his tummy will go back to the pink color and his hair will come back in on his feet over the winter. Thanks for all of your help. It is good to know that you aren't the only one out there with a problem.
Teena


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## DanielBMe

You can up to the dosage to 4mg a day. That's what I had Bogart and Brando on.

As well I highly recommend some EFA's (fish oil). Get the good stuff and feed with every meal. For some you may need to double the recommended dosage. If you get it from the vet, just follow the recommended dosage. After a few weeks, the combo of fatty acids and the antihistamine should help.


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## SMARTY

Just checking on everyone’s progress and glad to hear allergy season may be coming to an end so all of you and your fur babies may have some peace.


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## DanielBMe

Hmm not sure what happened but yesteday and today, both my guys have been scratching again quite a bit. So either there's still ragweed in the air or it's the beef I gave them yesterday.

I have a sneaky suspicion that both my guys may also be allergic to beef. I am going to feed them beef today to see if the scratching keeps up, then go back to lamb or something else.


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## Lunastar

Oh I hope that is just a fluke and they are better tomorrow.


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## hyindc

Luke started scratching his muzzle and licking his front paws earlier this summer. The hair on his face even started to thin out as a result of all the scratching. Eventually, we realized it was his response to an allergic reaction. We brought him to his vet, who opted against the expense of allergy testing, in case the itching was seasonal and would gradually go away on its own later this fall. However, she put him on a twice daily dose of chlorpheniramine and a once daily dose of salmon oil on his kibble. They worked miracles. His scratching started to decrease within a couple of days, and stopped entirely in about 10 days. We have kept up his treatment to be on the safe side. However, we are going tp the vet for his annual checkup next week, and will see then if she wants us to keep up the regimen for a few more weeks until we have a frost , or experiment with stopping it now.


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## DanielBMe

You are lucky, the chlorpheniramine and fish oil only seems to work on approx 10-20% of dogs with allergies. In my case Bogart and Brando where on it 3 x daily, 4mg each and fish oil. It helped a bit but not enough to make them comfortable. 

Keep in mind that typically allergies tend to get worse, so you may find that next year it won't work as much, but I hope that's not your case.


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## DanielBMe

Well today was Bogart's big day, allergy testing day. His left side was shaved down and they stuck him with 52 needles. Poor guy I felt so sorry for him. When they took him away he just gave me "that look"..."noooooooooooooooooooooooooo, I've been a good boy, Noooooooooooooooooooooooo Daddy heeeeeeeeeeeeeelp..p...." 

Well 7hrs later and $600 poorer what did I find out? Well I was wrong! He had no reaction whatsoever to grassess, moulds, weeds etc. No ragweed allergy. The only two items he had a strong reaction to were flea bites and mosquito bites. On the allergy scale of 0-4, 4 being very sensitve, he had a 4 on both mosquitoes and fleas. 

This was quite a surprise to both the vet and I. Bogart seemed to definitely have ragweed allergies. Afterall he stopped scratching soon after the first frost...or so it seemed. The vet did say that there are a small percentage of dogs that will indicate no response to a particular allergy test and yet still suffer from that allergy. So at this point, I really don't know what caused Bogart's symptoms. The vet did not believe that any immunotherapy was necessary. He indicated immunotherapy for flea bites and mozzies was not very reliable and didn't think Bogart would benefit from weekly injections.

So now we'll see what happens next year. I'll definitely keep him and Brando on Advantage and Sentinal for flea control. I'm not sure I'm happy or not with the test results. Part of me is happy that no weekly injections are necessary but the other part of me is not particular looking forward to next summer since I don't know what will happen.


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## Jill in Mich

Wow Daniel, that sort of leaves you at a loss, doesn't it? What a surprise to go through everything you have and then find out Bogart doesn't have all of the allergies you expected. Do you think it could just be food (beef?) allergies?

Tess sees the allergist tomorrow. We've now been working with him for 7 months. Her symptoms from food allergies have definitely been eliminated and I want to start adding regular foods back into her diet. I don't think it's good for her to be on such a restricted diet for so long and it's definitely not good for my pocketbook. 

We don't seem to be making much progress with the environmental allergies. She probably responded the best to the steroids she was recently on - both in reducing her symptoms and causing the least stress to administer. She's now been off of everything for about 1-2 weeks and is clearly miserable. I'm leaning toward sticking with the steroids and possibly continuing with the weekly shots (although she had an allergic reaction to the shots at the highest dose so we've started over and increasing the dosage very, very slowly). I wish she'd have at least one season she wasn't allergic to!


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## DanielBMe

I don't believe the problem was the beef since I wasn't feeding Bogart beef at the time when his symptoms appeared.

I guess it's possible that a flea bite or mozzie bite or two might have caused his symptoms since he did have a hyper sensitivity to them. I'll just monitor them closely next summer and keep track of the month and if they have any symptoms showing. 

I don't see it as a total loss. The more info I have the better my boys' life will be.

Sorry to hear Tess isn't responding better to the injections. I think that's far more problematic than what I'm experiencing with Bogart.


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## Chasza

DanielBMe said:


> The vet did not believe that any immunotherapy was necessary. He indicated immunotherapy for flea bites and mozzies was not very reliable and didn't think Bogart would benefit from weekly injections..


Awww, poor little guy. Your description of 'the look' sure made me sad...and that was alot of needles for the little fella. I am sure he will get lots and lots of attention, belly rubs, and super speciail treats and lovin' for what he has endured.

I am very, very disappointed with what you wrote saying the vet didn't think the shots were reliable for fleas. I had just about made up my mind to start them on my girl. We've not done any testing like you did, but I know fleas are her biggest environmental issue, so I was thinking I would cut to the chase and start the shots. She can survive the summer on Comfortis (without it she bites herself until she has bleeding holes and sores in her skin). So she survives 6-8 months of the year with this drug, but doesn't thrive. She still bites and scratches some, but her muzzle also turns red from the allergic reactions she has, so I know that the bites she still gets is enough to still set her system off. So even thought the Comfortis is a huge help (and I am so thankful to have it since both my dogs reacted oddly to the topicals), it is a huge help....still it doesn't stop that first bite.

Another thread on the topic talked about adding 1/4 cup apple cider to one gallon of a final leave on rinse once a week, and I am going to try that next year. Also, if I can keep them only in my yard (haven't been able to do that yet), then I could also work on keeping the fleas out of the yard. It's just if you take the dogs anywhere, there goes that option. Prayerfully, the vinegar rinse might help to repel the fleas from biting her in the first place.


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## Chasza

Jill,

The vets I see around here really don't want to give steroids b/c of the serious side effects. You must have tried everything else first for the vets to have your baby on them long-term. I hope other solutions will come on the market soon to help our fur-babies.

Daniel,

I think it can only take one flea bite since they are so allergic to the saliva of the flea. Kinda like someone with a severe peanut allergy eating a food that was made in a plant that processes peanuts in other foods can cause problems from cross-contamintion. It's just that severe an allergy to the protein. But, you know, they have found that starting these severe kids out with minuscle amounts and very slowly building it up (dosages given in the doctors office) does work to build a resistance to where they can accidently eat the food without severe reactions. 

So, why doesn't the shots work for flea saliva? Different species of fleas, maybe???


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## Lunastar

Wow Daniel, that has got to be a bit frustrating. Good news though. I would try a skin so soft dip. I used to this on my golden and it worked great to keep the mosquitoes away. 

Aw Jill poor Tess.


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## DanielBMe

Lunastar said:


> Wow Daniel, that has got to be a bit frustrating. Good news though. I would try a skin so soft dip. I used to this on my golden and it worked great to keep the mosquitoes away.
> 
> Aw Jill poor Tess.


Is that the one from Avon? My vet mentioned something by Avon called something along the line of skin so soft woodlands. He said tests indicated that it actually did help protect against mozzies. I was going to look in up on the web.

In regards to the immunotherapy for flea bites. My vet did indicate that if Bogart was allergic to a few other things and we were going to go ahead with the immunotherapy he would have then included the flea saliva into the mix. He just thought that for only that, the shots were not the best way to deal with them. He thought a proper flea prevention system might be better. He did also indicate that immunotherapy for fleas was not always effective, unfortunately I didn't ask why? You also have to keep in mind that Toronto is not like the south in the States where fleas are far far worse due to the longer summer season or more humidity, etc.


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## krandall

Just be careful with Skin So Soft if you have people around with allergies... I've violently allergic to it.


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## Jill in Mich

Chasza said:


> I am very, very disappointed with what you wrote saying the vet didn't think the shots were reliable for fleas. I had just about made up my mind to start them on my girl. We've not done any testing like you did, but I know fleas are her biggest environmental issue, so I was thinking I would cut to the chase and start the shots.


Can shots be done without doing the testing first? I thought the serum is always individually prepared based on the animal (or persons) allergies.


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## Missy

Jill, I was sorry to read that Tess is not responding to shots,or can't tolerate a large enough dose to progress. (I in fact had this same problem with allergy shots for me.) 

For what it is worth. Steroids, although I agree with Chaza that they should not be taken lightly, are also a godsend. So much to consider, but I have witnessed them in more than one case turn people's lives around. And in the case of dogs, when Cash was sick and prednisone was one of the options for him to live a normal life I was happy it was there. Yes there may be complications down the road...or Tess may not live to 15...but will her life (and yours) be that much better now for it to be trade-off you are willing to take? Hugs to you all.


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## DanielBMe

Jill in Mich said:


> Can shots be done without doing the testing first? I thought the serum is always individually prepared based on the animal (or persons) allergies.


I don't think any good vet would do the shots without testing first. Wouldn't make sense. You need to see if in fact they are allergic and then how allergic they are. If it's only a one or a two out of 4, you really wouldn't require shots.


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## Jill in Mich

Missy said:


> Jill, I was sorry to read that Tess is not responding to shots,or can't tolerate a large enough dose to progress. (I in fact had this same problem with allergy shots for me.)
> 
> For what it is worth. Steroids, although I agree with Chaza that they should not be taken lightly, are also a godsend. So much to consider, but I have witnessed them in more than one case turn people's lives around. And in the case of dogs, when Cash was sick and prednisone was one of the options for him to live a normal life I was happy it was there. Yes there may be complications down the road...or Tess may not live to 15...but will her life (and yours) be that much better now for it to be trade-off you are willing to take? Hugs to you all.


Thanks Missy, it's reassuring for you to say that. These are exactly the issues I've been struggling with and have come to the decision that Tess is better off on steroids, even if it shortens her life, but of course continue to have self-doubt. It doesn't hurt that steroids are probably the cheapest course of action - but of course that just adds more doubt to whether I'm making the right decision for the right reasons. This past week has definitely proven to me that she has to have something. I am glad we went through this process with the allergist, otherwise I would have always wondered if there was something else out there that would have helped her. Of course once I see the allergist, he may talk me into trying something else. But thanks for your input - I'll have you standing next to me in spirit when I talk to the doctor.


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## Chasza

Most vets wouldn't give the shots without testing. I have spent so many thousands on these two dogs, and to the point where their vet is the special internist associated with my states vet teaching school, that I *think* I could get it without the testing. There is absolutely no doubt what-so-ever it is fleas. I do live in the south, so it is most of the months here, as well. I may try the rinses next year to see if that helps, first. I do know now that I must start the Comfortis sometime in May - well before June hits. IF I can get the itches down a little bit more with the vinegar rinses (causing the fleas to avoid her in the first place), then I would much rather avoid the shots, so I may see how this works out next year.


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## Lunastar

DanielBMe said:


> Is that the one from Avon? My vet mentioned something by Avon called something along the line of skin so soft woodlands. He said tests indicated that it actually did help protect against mozzies. I was going to look in up on the web.
> 
> Yes from Avon. The original bath oil is what I used to use. Of course at that time it is the only SSS product. LOL
> 
> Amazon.com: Avon SKIN SO SOFT Original Bath Oil - 24 fl. oz.: Beauty
> 
> My vet also told me years ago that the immunotherapy for fleas was not a good choice, very expensive with a small success rate. Again it may have improved since then and I am sure it is cheaper now. Or maybe not.


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## Lunastar

Jill, not all dogs or people for that matter, have complications or trouble with side effects from steriods. My Bella had to have them for a severe allergic reation. She had a lovely case of roid rage. My old girl Niki lived to be almost 16. She was a large dog so 15 was a good long life for her. She was on steriods for various things, flea allergy being one, most of her life. Well her first 3 years were steroid free, but after that it was always something. She did just fine. The last 4 years she took it almost daily. I would try to wean her off for a week here and there. She was always better on it rather than off.


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## Missy

*Glad I didn't sell the dehydrator....*

The boys have had such a hard spring with their eyes, ears, anals and now Cash's eyes and anals and hot spots too, that my vet wants me to try and switch proteins. (amazing that these two hunky havs are NOT blood related.)

Apparently active anal glands can be a sign of allergies too.

So at first we are just going to try switching to the Natures Variety Bison medallions and see if it makes a difference over a few months. And I'm going back to making my own Bison Jerky as treats.

So after this news I immediately thought of Tess and needed an update. How is she doing Jill? are you still "hunting" Ostrich for her? 

I am really hoping just changing proteins works. I am not sure we could do the home prep at this point.

Has anyone heard of this company?

http://www.pawnaturaw.com/analyses.html#bison

Their raw medallions have far fewer ingredients than the NV.


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## mintchip

:grouphug: Get better soon Jasper and Cash. Good luck Missy.
I agree it is amazing that they aren't blood related......................


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## Lunastar

Oh Missy, please keep us posted on their progress. Poor little guys.


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## Jill in Mich

Missy, sorry Cash & Jasper are going through such a rough time. Allergies are so frustrating!!! At this point Tess' allergy levels are tolerable. She's on a regimen of Orasone (steroid), Atarax (anti-histamine) and EicosaDerm (Omega-3 fatty acids EPA/DHA with Vitamin E). She still licks her paws and scratches her ears and chin but the levels are down from a 9 out of 10 to about a 3. A 3 we can live with. As much as I hate having her on a steroid, it's the only thing that seems to help. And I don't know how much the Omega-3 helps her allergies but since she's been on it her coat is gorgeous. A girl has to take whatever she can get! She is also still getting allergy shots once a week but since she had an allergic reaction to that we've had to back down on the dosage and are increasing the amount very, very slowly so we won't see any benefits from the shots for at least a year. 

I've pretty well determined that Tess doesn't have any food allergies which make life so much easier. Of course she's still so picky that I'm limited in the foods she'll eat. Ahhhh, the life of a diva


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## Missy

Jill, a gorgeous fur coat goes a long way!!! LOL. I am glad it is under control. I am pretty sure it is seasonal as both boys are affected in different ways But at the same time. And we had such a lovely April and May here, everything is blooming and coming out all at the same time. Humans are having a hard time in N.E. this year. Omega 3 is a great anti-inflammatory. I bet it is helping in the overall picture.


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