# parrot mouth?



## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

Anyone familiar with this [it's a severe overbite]?

Turns out the 'slight overbite' Winston has might actually be 'severe' and I'm a little freaked out. We had our 1st vet visit.

I won't know until he's 4 or 5 months.

I'm so frustrated right now.

Thanks.

Trish


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Trish,
oh no  Is there anyway it would correct itself. I didn't notice anything from the photos you posted.

Amanda


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## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

*Well..*

the breeder hoped it would [and the vet who evaluated them at 7 wks.]. that's why he didn't go to the show buyer though, the breeder & buyer couldn't take the risk. But she thought it was mild and could correct itself. And I frankly didn't even think about it [I was concerned with all the testing; soaping, etc...]

My vet said it is too severe to correct itself. Parrot mouth is a severe overbite...the problem could be if his lower canines dig into the roof of his mouth. Then you either have to pull them [their tongue will hang out like chinese crested dogs] or have more expensive possibilities like filing and capping or even possibly moving the jaw!

Now he has no trouble eating at all so my gut says mild...but yikes...

My vet works with 2 havanese breeders so I feel really good about her [she was Quincy's vet]. She thought he looked great [except for the bite]. She hasn't seen parrot mouth in havanese but has in german shepards.

Trish


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Thats infortunate! Hopefully it will be ok?

What does it look like though? Before your vet visit could you tell his bite looked odd? Or only now that you know, does it look odd? Or can u even tell? I'm always wondering to myself if anything about Beamer is off... but how would i know?? I'm going to ask the vet a the next visit to comment on all these things..


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## Doggie Nut (Oct 20, 2006)

Sorry to hear that Trish....I've never even heard of it! I'm gonna believe it will be ok!!


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## CapotesMom (Apr 3, 2007)

I'm going to invent doggie braces..  What an innovation...


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Goodness Trish......you are having a long run of bad luck!You poor thing!That is usually my luck(none).I have never heard of such a thing before.......I'm sorry.I guess you will have to evaluate what your vet says and the breeder etc.and go from there.Is the breeder willing to trade you pups or take him back?Perhaps help pay for whatever he may need in the future?


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## Shada (Feb 4, 2007)

Have you talked to your breeder?

I sincerely hope little Winston will be ok.
His pictures look great! Is it that noticiable? Will it, can it, hinder him as he grows?

Sounds as though it could become serious. 

I truly hope and pray for the best for this little guy.


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang (May 21, 2007)

Oh Trish, 

I hope the overbite will correct at least enough that Winston won't need any special treatment for it! 

Our Pepper has an underbite that's very obvious. Sometimes he looks like a little werewolf with those teeth sticking out like they do. 

We'll be keeping our fingers crossed that Winston's overbite self-corrects.

Wanda


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## Honey Poney's (Jun 21, 2007)

Don't worry to quickly.
Just give it some time until he has his adult teeth and his head is completely develop.
I have seen it correct its self lots of time but never have seen an overbite correct its self.

Good luck
Christine


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## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

*Thanks for your thoughts guys...*

It looks like an overbite in a human would. I knew when I bought him that he had it, the breeder showed it to me. I also knew that he couldn't be shown because of it. Her vet and her assumed it would be mild because he eats just fine [if it's severe, they have trouble eating.]. And that was at 7 weeks.

Now at 11 perhaps it's more severe than it was. He still seems to eat fine though.

Doggie braces have already been invented! Can you believe it?

The breeder has offered to take him back or help with medical costs. DH said 'well we're not giving him back!'

I think I'm going to remain hopeful that it won't be harmful to him. We won't know until his adult canines come in. Vet said 4-5 months.

I was hoping someone on here had experience with this.

Trish


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I have alot of experience with this with one of human children, but not with a pet.

My oldest son was born with a cleft/lip palate and had YEARS of othodontia, oral surgeries, plastic surgeries and dentist. I mean years....and several thousand dollars.

From what I gather, the worst case scenario is that he would have to have teeth pulled and possible some capped? Is that about right?

Honestly, that doesn't sound too bad to me! I'm guessing it might run you about $2000 or maybe a bit more, around $3000? Thats *IF* he needs a specialist. And he may need to eat wet food instead of dry food for awhile.

Did the vet give you any indication of worst case/best case scenarios? Did he recommend a specialist?

I'm sorry about the news, I'd just google away and maybe check your library for books on the condition to educate yourself right now as much as possible.

Hugs,
Kara


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Trish, 
This is so sad for a little puppy. I looked up a brief thing on it and it does sound like your vet knows what can happen.


> Overshot Bite:
> Also known as parrot mouth or brachygnathism : the upper jaw extends beyond the lower jaw, causing the upper teeth to overlap the lower teeth, preventing them from aligning snugly as they should be. An overshot bite can create difficulty grasping with the jaws and in severe cases, the growth of adult teeth can cause significant injuy to the soft tissues of the roof of the dog's mouth. This makes it difficult to chew and often causes a reluctant eater.


I know you already love this little guy and it is one thing if it was just cosmetic but the surgeries and the reluctant eating can be pretty scary. I would seriously go see a specialist and see how bad it really is, talk to the breeder again. Obviously, that is a decision you guys will have to make but hearing about the surgeries and the teeth being removed is very scary.

Amanda


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

We had a farm dog with a parrot mouth. All our farm dogs have been strays that just showed up or rescues. She lived to be close to 17 and never had any trouble eating. Good luck.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Oh Trish, I hope it is not as bad as it sounds. I think I remember Marj's Sammy has an overbite, check with her maybe you can compare notes. Keep us updated, he is such a cute little guy I hope he doesnt have any problems.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Sorry to hear about Winston. I hope everything turns out OK. At least your breeder said she would help with expenses.

Shelby has an underbite which is very noticeable, but it doesn't seem to bother her at all.


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Trish that is a real bummer. Hopefully it will correct itself. Could you get the findings of the breeder's vet as to what degree they thought the over bit was? And also that vet's educated opinion as to the growth correction you could expect. Getting it from the vet and not the breeder may give you an insight as to what may be coming in the future of this baby. Has this breeder had this before and could you talk to the owners of these dogs? I'm glad the breeder is willing to work with you on this.

I have a question(s) as I did everything wrong when I bought my puppy according to the Havanese forums, *or this maybe a breeder question*. When you buy (sell) a "pet" puppy is it always because something is wrong with it such as a deformity. Is the price reduced substantially from the $1,500 plus seen on the web sites as a starting price for a pet puppy. I would have thought a pet would be maybe a little longer back, markings not the best for show, carriage, personality, etc. Never would I have imagined some of the things I am reading on this forum that could affect the health of the puppy or could result in future large vet bills.

I maybe the only person on this forum that feels if this is really severe, I would consider returning the puppy and look for one that does not have health problems. I know you love him, but sometimes we need to look to the future of a problem, quality of life and future ramifications of this issue

We truly hope this is not as serious as it sounds.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

I might have to agree with Sandi on this one.. Especially since my experience with Mango. Of course a heart defect sounds alot more serious, which it is! But after hearing your vets comments on this 'severe' bite problem, it just might lead to many more problems in the future. I mean your breeder said it was slight? and your vet says severe? Would the breeder reduce the price atleast for this issue?


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

To answer Smarty's question about "pet" puppies.

Different breeders do it different ways. Some want to put as many of the puppies they produce as possible in show homes. This is one of the problems the breed is having now. Last year over 10% of all Havanese registered became AKC champions-I hope I remember that right from numbers posted in the Gazette. Some breeders live for that.

Then there are breeders like us. We have placed a total of 4 (maybe 5-relying on memory again) of our puppies in show homes. These were to people we know. Almost every puppy we have placed could easily finish. I say "almost every" but can't really think of one that couldn't. Every litter is planned with the idea of what an individual in that litter can do for our breeding program and most of the time we will be running one on but we only keep one if it is truly spectacular.

We have put some of the best Havanese produced in some of the best pet homes.

So to answer your question. No, all pets do not have "something wrong with them".


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I do know firsthand that extensive dental work is not cheap, but atleast we live in an advanced enough world that most problems like this *can* be fixed.

The real question is, do you want to deal with the financial aspect of it, and the extra nurturing for post-surgery care, ie. syringe feeding, etc. is a distinct possibility.

My perspective, is that it isn't that hard, and my son basically had no roof of his mouth and was reconstructed through about 15 surgeries. *shew*. I imagine a problem like this with a puppy would only take a few procedures and be a cakewalk compared to what I went through. lol...So you may want to disregard my opinion all together!

I do know you have probably fallen head over heels for Winston, and this will be a tough decision for you. 

I think an opinion from a vet dental specialist is what you HAVE to get at this point.

Kara


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## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

I agree with Kara. You have 2 opinions: one from a breeder who has seen lots of Havanese with different bites and one from a vet. You need the best opinion you can get now so you can weigh your options carefully.

Keep us posted.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

I agree with Kara. If you can find a specialist in canine dentistry have them look at Winston. We took Sedona to a doggy dentist when it appeared one of her canines was coming in at an angle that would cause it to pierce the roof of her mouth. His concern was that the permanent tooth would follow the same path. He pulled the puppy canine and the adult came in fine. I would definitely recommend a look-see by a veterniary dentist if there is one in your area. McKenna had an underbite as a puppy but outgrew it.

Susan


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Tom, thanks for you breeder response to my inquiry. How would you handle a situation like this if Winston’s problem is bad enough to require one or more surgeries to correct, what should the breeder do? Should the Puppy have been placed? Should these problems be corrected prior to placement? 

I may need to start a new thread as to what is breeders’ responsibilities to the pet buyers. I know you, meaning breeders in general, want straight legs, no CD and the host of other ailments that can befall a Havanese as noted on the HCA web site. But what about some of these things we are hearing about on this Forum. 

No pet owner wait weeks or months for a puppy, pay the Havanese prices, fall in love with the puppy and find out the problems are more complicated that the breeder mentioned.


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

Oh dear, I'm sorry to hear there is a potential problem on the horizon. Try not to worry too much just yet. I think you should see a doggie dentist and get an expert opinion. So far you've had two opinions and they are both different! Find out from a professional dentist how bad is the overbite what are the chances it will correct and if not where are the options and how expensive are they? The caps on a couple lower canines doesn't sound too bad to me. 

It would be awesum if all pups could be born just perfect but in reality there are a number of things that can happen. I don't believe it should be the breeder's responsibilty to fix everything but I do feel the breeder should be as honest as they can about any possible problems. It sounds like the breeder did mention the overbite and relayed her vets opinion on just how bad it was. I sure hope it does correct in time, but meanwhile it wouldn't hurt to hear from just one more Dr. :ear:


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## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

*Thanks everyone....*

Kara sorry about your son and glad he's better.

Tom do you have experience with parrot mouth?

Everyone....he CANNOT see a specialist until he's 4-5 months old...so he's 11 weeks now so at least another 6 weeks....

That's' my big problem. I don't know and won't know how bad or if it's bad at all for a while.

I know everything has an unknown.

This is one of the big reasons I wanted an OLDER pup or young adult. Because you know what you're getting, you know? I should have stuck with my guns on that. But now I'm here so I have to deal with where I am.

It must be really rare in the breed?

I read that the breeding should be discontinued if parrot mouth occurs, is this true?

Trish


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Trish, I feel so bad for what you are going through. There are a number of web sites that discuss this condition, one thing I did learn is that parrott mouth is the laymans term for all over bites, slight or greater. I'm sure you have seen most of them but I copied a couple for the other members general information:

Overshot Bite: 
Also known as parrot mouth or brachygnathism : the upper jaw extends beyond the lower jaw, causing the upper teeth to overlap the lower teeth, preventing them from aligning snugly as they should be. An overshot bite can create difficulty grasping with the jaws and in severe cases, the growth of adult teeth can cause significant injuy to the soft tissues of the roof of the dog's mouth. This makes it difficult to chew and often causes a reluctant eater.

Malocclusion 
Malocclusion refers to an abnormal tooth alignment. Over bite (parrot mouth, over shot, class two, over jet, mandibular brachygnathism) occurs when the lower jaw is shorter than the upper. There may be a gap between the upper and lower incisors when the mouth is closed. The upper premolars are displaced at least 25% toward the front compared to the lower premolars. An over bite malocclusion is not considered normal in any breed and is a genetic fault. The most commonly affected breeds are those with elongated muzzles (Collies, Shelties, Dachshunds, and Russian Wolfhounds).

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1633&articleid=375
http://www.dentalvet.com/patients/orthodontics/pet_orthodontics.htm


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## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

*Hello...*

When I researched [and I did and did...]

it seemed that all overbites were called Malocclusion and a severe case was 'parrot mouth'...perhaps I'm wrong there.

The breeder's VET at 7 weeks didn't think it was severe and thought it would possibly 'grow out' or not but didn't think it would affect anything. IT was presented to me as 'no big deal' and my breeder probably really thought this.

MY VET at 11 weeks thinks it is severe and WILL NOT grow out and will require some sort of work $500-$2-3K she really didn't even want to guess....

I knew he had an overbite going into it. But I was under the impression that it wouldn't affect him in anyway and it wouldn't be costing $$$$.

Yes Good Buddy [I'm quoting you directly]
It would be awesum if all pups could be born just perfect but in reality there are a number of things that can happen. I don't believe it should be the breeder's responsibilty to fix everything but I do feel the breeder should be as honest as they can about any possible problems. *It sounds like the breeder did mention the overbite and relayed her vets opinion on just how bad it was.* I sure hope it does correct in time, but meanwhile it wouldn't hurt to hear from just one more Dr.

But that sentence in bold is not true; that was MY VET that told me this. When I shell out $$$$ for a dog, I should get a dog that doesn't require $$$$$. I am irritated by your response frankly. Sorry.

And ONCE AGAIN....we will NOT KNOW until his canines come in [4-5 months of age] WHETHER or NOT there's a PROBLEM....so that's another 6 weeks of my family to get more and more attached and then find out we have to spend $3K???? AND I CANNOT hear from just one more Dr. UNTIL then.

I cannot believe you think I'm expecting TOO much in expecting a healthy puppy without costly medical issues.

I think I wasn't reacting enough!!

Trish


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Trish, I wish there was an easy answer to what you are going through. I agree you should expect a puppy that does not have to have surgeries due to birth defects. No breeder can guarantee the future of the *unseen and unknown in their breeding program*, but does the (health) guarantee that the breeders give cover this?

This would not be a happy solution for your family, but would the breeder take the puppy back until it reaches that 5 to 6 month stage? Or is that not an option from your family?

I ask these question because I want to know what more about the Havanese. Is your breeder one that has the reputation of a *good breeder* by the standards we have all read about in the forum? As I have stated before, I bred and showed Boxers for a number of years and never heard of puppies being sold with known problems that could result in future health issue. If a birth defect did occur, the breeders I knew would give a puppy away to a good home with the no papers and the new family being fully aware of the problem.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Seeing how I know a little bit more about Winston's breeding than everyone else on this forum i have the urge to say something. Both of Winston's parents are Champions and are fully health tested, this IS the first overbite this breeding has produced. Not only did your breeder and her vet evaluate Winston but this whole litter got a special evaluation by several breeders due to the qty of show people looking for pups from your breeder. I strongly feel if any of these breeders felt Winston's overbite was going to be a big issue they would have spoke up and your breeder would not have sold him to you. 

Tish you did all the right things, making sure all health tests were there. Your breeder did all the right things informing you about the overbite and now offering to take him back or help pay for medical bills. 

I will have to agree with Christy all the health testing in the world does not guarantee 100% healthy dogs. Every breeder over some period of time is going to have a health issue, good breeders do the best they can with the health testing available and breed away from any health issues. 


Trish I wish I could tell you everything is going to be alright but I cant, only time will tell if Winston is going to have any issues. I know if you decide to keep Winston your breeder will stand behind you and help in any way she can, this is just as important to her as it is to you. Please do not take any of this the wrong way, I just want people to understand you did not buy from a back yard breeder and you checked for everything you possibly could, you were informed about an overbite that was beleaved not to be a problem but looks like it possibly could be by your vet. It breaks my heart to hear how upset you are and I can only hope & pray things work out for you & Winston.


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## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

Trish--my heart goes out to you and your family! I can feel the pain in your posts. At this time I am going to hope that the breeder and her vet was right, because they are the ones who have seen lots of havanese. Perhaps your vet is unfamiliar with how their mouths change over time. 

I would still consider consulting an expert now. An expert may be familiar with what to expect with these small mouths and may also know of something that early interventions would help. I know that with people, some work on the mouths with baby teeth prevents more work later on. I think a consultation with an expert at this point could even ease your mind over the next 6-8 weeks. Call and see how much the consultation would cost and perhaps you could split the cost with your breeder. 

I am sending you hugs today.


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## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

*Thank you Leeann...and to everyone...*

Leeann...I agree with you. I trust our breeder. Thank you for the reassurance.

To Everyone [including Leeann] sorry for my post. I'm a tad cranky and I just felt like I was being attacked. Those of you that know me KNOW how much I RESEARCHED. In my OP, I was not asking for advice, but I was asking if anyone had experience with this problem in this breed. I was hoping someone could reassure me or give me worst case scenarios, etc.

I thought I posted that my breeder has offered to SPLIT expenses which I appreciate. At the same time, if it's $3000 I feel a little differently than $600 or $1000, you know?

I am just going to pray it's nothing or just a small $$ amount.

Thank you all very much. I appreciate the thought behind your posts. Thanks also for those that provided information about parrot mouth.

Trish


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Trish you are not cranky, you are just a good person concerned about your boy. You have every right to be concerned. I strongly feel Winston could not be in a better home, the love you have showed this little guy in the short time he has been with you is tremendous.

I truly hope as Winston grows his overbite does not become an issue for him but if it does I know in my heart he will get the best care from his mommy he could ever want.

I think this is a learning experience for a lot of us and hopefully you will continue to share in Winston's development.


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## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

*I promse to post pics of his overbite later today....*

On a happy note...We also took him boating yesterday!!! He was AWESOME!!

I even put him in the water just a little ways out [1-2 feet from shore] so he could swim back to shore and get confident about water. He was sooo cute.

People kept asking me what kind of dog he was!!

His little life vest was too big so we didn't let him up on the seats [just in case].

I didn't have a camera so took pics with DH's palm so I have to wait til Monday to post those!
Trish


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

TnTWalter said:


> Yes Good Buddy [I'm quoting you directly]....
> *It sounds like the breeder did mention the overbite and relayed her vets opinion on just how bad it was.* I sure hope it does correct in time, but meanwhile it wouldn't hurt to hear from just one more Dr.
> 
> But that sentence in bold is not true; that was MY VET that told me this. When I shell out $$$$ for a dog, I should get a dog that doesn't require $$$$$. I am irritated by your response frankly.Trish


Trish, I'm sorry, I feel we didn't comunicate well. Please let me try again. What I was trying to say, is that it sounds to me like your breeder did take the dog to a vet and relayed to you what her vet had said about the overbite. It sounds like your vet had a different opinion and felt the overbite is much worse, and I did mention that you have two very different opinions from each vet. I only meant that it didn't sound like your breeder was trying to fool you somehow. She didn't try to hide the overbite, it was only that her vet felt it wasn't so bad. I'm sorry I said anything.


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## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

*Thanks Christy.*

I'm sorry too.

Trisheace:


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## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

*Tom...I forgot...*



Tom King said:


> We had a farm dog with a parrot mouth. All our farm dogs have been strays that just showed up or rescues. She lived to be close to 17 and never had any trouble eating. Good luck.


Thank you!

Trish


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Thank you LeeAnne for the breeder input. 

Trish, keep us posted. Good Luck


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Trish, I am so sorry to hear this. You can just tell Winston is full of personality. I agree with others here that if you could find a specialist - or even another vet to get a third oppinion now it might make you feel better. With two very differing opinions the possibillity that your vet may be wrong is a possibility- no matter how wonderful a vet he/she is-- just like doctors they can't really be experts on everything. I think your breeder sounds very reasonable--- Most breeders health guarentee are for a replacement puppy (how many people can give back a puppy?) that she will split the costs is quite extraordinary....Hugs and prayers are with you and Winston and your family.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Trish, I'm sorry to hear about Winston's overbite. Leeann is right, I am familiar with that since Sammy has a case of overbite. It isn't quite as alarming though and my vet reassured me it wouldn't cause him any problems with eating, no pain or health issues due to it either. 

He must have started showing it around 3, 4 months but I didn't get Sammy until 7 months. I wasn't told he had this, as I wasn't told he had slightly turned out front feet and that his teeth came in all crooked for lack of space. I didn't buy him from his breeder though, nor did we pay top dollar for him. He was in a home that planned on showing/breeding him, but when he turned out to have a few issues and wasn't quite the standard (though now I see he is the FCI standard - from Hungary where he was bred), they started looking for a pet home to place him in. Anyway, long story and it has nothing to do with you..... sorry! 

The fact is that there was some disappointment when we first had him and saw that all was not quite what we'd hoped. We are totally in love with the little guy though and are in it for the long haul. 

We can all probably safely assume your breeder must have done everything she could to ensure Winston was as healthy and sound as can be and had no issues that would seriously affect his health. If he had stuck with only a slight overbite such as Sammy's, it wouldn't be a problem. She has offered to help pay medical expenses which is a good thing.

I agree with Missy that it wouldnt' hurt to get him checked out by a specialist and hope the costs for such a visit aren't crazy high. He/She might be a lot more reassuring than your vet is and it will do wonders to ease your mind.


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## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

*Marj...thanks...*

I'm still hopeful that his jaw will grow into it a little more.

I'm also hoping my vet wanted to give me worst case scenario...

I appreciate the input.

Trish


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## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

Trish, I wish I had more to offer, but :grouphug: give Winston a hug from Sam & I.:grouphug: And of course one for yourself.:hug:


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## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

*too tired to post pics tonight...*

i will try tomorrow.

Trish


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Trish,

I am so sorry about little Winston and can only imagine how worried and upset you are. But have hope, he still might grow into his overbite a bit and it won't be too bad.

XOXO


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I know it is much easier for me to say this, but try not to worry. A jaw can change a lot in these first few months, which is probably the reason for the specialist not being able to see him yet. 

I've watched perfect bites go bad, and I've watched bad bites turn out perfect. Yes, sometimes bad bites get worse, but you just don't know. Fortunately for you, it sounds like this is a first in Winston's immediately family, so that should give you some hope.


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## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

*Thank you Kimberly....*

that is reassuring.

And everyone else....whatever the comment you have made....thank you. I really appreciate the community here.

Trisheace:


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## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

*He wasn't the most willing model...*

but here's a shot of his overbite...









Trish


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## EMarie (Apr 11, 2007)

I just looked that up on my school book, Parrot mouth is actually not a proper term. Many vets use it to describe a major underbite. There is 3 levels of an underbite/overbite. Parot Mouth is just a shorter lower jaw and a longer upper jaw. Their is a picture of what the vet is talking about the lower canines puncturing the uppper gum line. It does not say anything about removing canines or capping them. I have seen a couple of dogs with this and we never removed any of their teeth. I guess it just depends on if the dog is botherd by it. Don't worry about it now, just watch him and make sure he is eating/drinking normally and not acting like he is in pain. At 4 months old, many things can still happen as he grows up. Don't panic yet!!!! Good Luck


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## EMarie (Apr 11, 2007)

From your picture he looks like my other dog, with just an over bite, where are his lower canines, inside or outsite the upper teeth?


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## chrismom (Jun 22, 2007)

I know- taking dog pictures is so frustrating, but a better picture would tell more. If you could possibly take a picture sort of below the view, so that we could see how the teeth meet- or don't meet I guess, that would be better for anyone to give advice. Maybe one person could hold the dog and another take the picture. If we could see the upper and lower teeth at the same time it would be much clearer.

I have to mention - my first German Pinscher I bought had an over bite that was very severe. It was still very severe at like 6 months old. I had a lot of people telling me that there is no way that it would get better. It did- now her bit is perfect. I am not saying that anyone can guarantee it will be ok, but ya never know. 

Also my third one had a bite problem too. It was really bad and his lower canines were growing into the roof of his mouth. It was even starting to bleed. I had lots of dog people look at it- everyone agreed that there was no fixing it, and the solution would be to remove the canines. I decided that that would have to be the option, looking at the way they were growing it appeared that it could only get worse. Well, I went away for the weekend to a show- I got home and looked in his mouth- surprize- in those few days it had completely corrected itself.

No guarantee it will be ok but don't worry too much yet. Also, keep in mind- often vets like to suggest costly things when it is not really needed! I knew a Shih Tzu that had a severe parrot mouth and he was fine all of his life (like 16 years) nothing done about it, no problems with it ever. I also know a Labrador that has a parrot mouth, she is just fine too- nothing ever needed done about hers either. I call them "beak dogs" lol!!! 

If it is severe, even if it requires nothing I think the breeder should give some discount, just an opinion.

Good luck!


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## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

*That makes me feel so much better. Thanks so much.*

I am hoping and praying.

He is OUT COLD; I'll try to post a picture tomorrow...been sleeping FOREVER. Hope this doesn't mean a long night for me. LOL.

Trish


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## EMarie (Apr 11, 2007)

Tish, 
I am so sorry about all the problems you are facing but I would have to agree with Leeann...
"I will have to agree with Christy all the health testing in the world does not guarantee 100% healthy dogs. Every breeder over some period of time is going to have a health issue, good breeders do the best they can with the health testing available and breed away from any health issues"

Breeders do the best they can, the run the health test and pick the best parents they can find. ( well most of them ) but there is no way to know about any health problems that might arise. In the 10 year I worked at a veterinary practice I never saw us cut out any dogs canines because of an over/under bite. Dogs adjust to thing much better than people. Just give him a chance and try not to worry yourself to death. I am sure your breeder will do what she can and will be there for your questions. Maybe try another vet for a second op. Not a specialist since you said he can't go until he is 4-6 months old, but just another vet, ask a friend who they use... Another thing to remember he is 11 weeks old, he is a BABY...let him grow up. When I look at strut ( my elkhound ) all I can see are his faults and to show a dog it can be daunting, but I have to remember he is 14 weeks old, he is growing...Give him a chance and when he is 6 months old or even 1 yr old then address the situation. As long as he is eating and drinking normally then wait and see what his body does... In the mean time we will all be thinking about you...


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Great advice EMarie, and very reassuring. Thanks for posting!


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## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

*UPDATE...*

The dentist wants to pull his baby teeth. Of course he'd have to go under and it wouldn't fix anything. He thinks it MIGHT help his lower jaw grow out more [but very SLIGHT chance] and it will help with any discomfort. BUT he doesn't seem to have discomfort at all. He eats fine, etc. So I said NO to that, to me the chance of better OUTWEIGHS the cost and possible trouble [could harm permanent teeth growing in]. It would be $800.

In the next 2 months, his baby canines should fall out adult should start coming in. There still a CHANCE that they will slant outside the upper teeth in which case, NOTHING needs to be done.

But if they grow straight up, they'll need to be FIXED. He wants to cut them down and fill like a cavity so no nerve pain or damage. That way they're still usable, etc. That will cost $1200.

He doesn't want to just pull the canines. I can't remember why. But I still think that's an option. So possibly less expensive if it's an option that's safe for Winston.

Just thought you'd all like to know.

Trish


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## EMarie (Apr 11, 2007)

well, that is good news, you are going to wait until his adult teeth come in before you do anything right? having an answer should make you feel better!!!

Erin


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

You know it might be like children and you have to wait until he grows a little and it may not be as bad as the vet suggests... He is still so young .. 
I do not know why they have to tell people things when like this when the dog is not even fully grown .
I used to think vets knew it all but no more .. They do make mistakes and a lot of them are financially motivated..
Do not be afraid to get another opinion either .. Oh yes they do have braces for dogs as Asta had a slight overbite and I laughingly suggested he will need braces and the vet said we can do that if you want .
He looked fine in my eyes and he had no trouble eating either .
I did tell the breeder though as I was concerned about future litters . She did not take it well and I never heard from her again . It was strictly an FYI but I guess she did not want to hear it .. 
I suggest going on the U/C site and seeing if it has any information . They are a good resource .. 
Take care - and do not despair . You have an adorable loooking puppy ..


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## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

*What's a U/C? Thanks.*

Trish

I just wanted to post an update frankly I'm frustrated and don't want to think about it anymore.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

:hug:I'm sorry Trish...:hug:
Sometimes it's just better to go and do something else for a while and try not to think about it.Unfortunately,I know very well.........
Hang in there though and try to just put it way to back of your mind


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Trish,
Hugs to you and Winston! Relax and just do fun things the rest of the day!

Amanda & Dora


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## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

Hi Trish--My 10 mo. old Biscuit was sold to us by a breeder on a neuter contract, expressly because of his overbite. We got him at 12 weeks. As first-time dog and Havanese owners, we were too ignorant to even realize this might pose some problems. On initial exam the vet was concerned that his lower canines might grow up into the top of his mouth, or something.
I still wasn't alarmed---ignorance is bliss.
ANYHOW--- everything came in perfectly over time and he has no problems whatsoever! And we love his endearing little overbite---when he sleeps upside down you see those little front teeth. 
So my counsel would be to try to put this out of your mind, and relax and enjoy your darling Winston. He's a dollface! Worst case scenario, I am sure your vet can fix. If he is eating and gripping toys now with no problem, I am very optimistic. Biscuit has a grip like a vise! All best!


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Trish,
We'll keep our fingers crossed that as Winston matures nothing will need to be done and if he's eating well and not bothered by his jaw and teeth, all's well for now. In the meantime, give him lots of hugs cause he might sense that you are frustrated with his doctors and his situation. He's so adorable.

Cosmosmom, we were all ready to put braces on Sedona if her adult tooth had followed the same path as her baby tooth. I was trying to figure out how I was going to explain braces on my dog......the tooth came in okay.

Susan


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## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

*Thanks Amy!!*

So glad to know it worked out for you. Here's hoping I'll get a similar result.

I am GETTING irritated about the whole thing.

I could have sworn my vet told me we wouldn't know until 4 or 5 months old. Then yesterday she acted like she told me to have it checked out right away and I should have already done it; then she ran and made the appointment for me....at a place 45 minutes away!! With 3 kids, 2 of whom are still getting over having tonsils & adnoids removed [part of my stress].

So then I feel like this guy is trying to make it worse than it is....he keeps telling me the baby teeth should be removed because of his discomfort [WHAT DISCOMFORT?] and to prevent BEHAVIORAL problems that could develop? He looked in his mouth and Winston squirmed a little [probably cause he didn't know the guy and it was a bad angle] said see he is uncomfortable having people in his mouth [like that shows his pain]. I took him and started rubbing all over his teeth mouth etc with NO PROBLEM and said 'I'm not sure what you're talking about?' As Winston fell asleep! LOL.

Now I'm wondering if he was just trying to 'scare' me into $$$$.

And I completely forgot what he said just having them pulled...he hemmed hawed about why it wouldn't be a good idea but I just can't remember. I'm pretty sure my vet said it could be done, although maybe she'll claim now that she told me it could NOT be done. LOL.

So now I'm also irritated at my vet for wasting $100. I almost wonder if she had talked to him recently and worked out a referral fee or something. I'm frankly tempted to switch....but they are SO close.

UGH.

Trish


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

If you are really in doubt about your vet then switch. I believe I would wait until I "knew" Winston was having a problem. Like everyone has said he might grow out of it. If problems start do something about it, until then enjoy you puppy.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Trish, 

Sounds like you need a break. I have this really great bottle of home made portuguese wine. One glass will put you on your bum bum and you will forget everything, I'll send my private jet to come get you. lane:


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## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

*Ahhh...sounds great Leeann!!*

I need it. Next week when everything is back to normal, nothing will seem so dramatic as it does today! LOL. Did I mention to top it all off I've gained 5 pounds [haven't been able to exercise more than 2x a week, usually 4-5] and have been coughing up my lungs for going on 3 weeks. :frusty:

Thanks all...eace:

Trish

....waiting for that delivery...


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

I travel 45 minutes to my Vet . I trust her implicitly . The vet that was so close to me never had Cosmos or my best interest at heart . 
When I called because he had found a mushroom and I was panicked - no one could take the time to talk to me or reassure me .
I was referred to the Emergency hospital - after I told them I would never go there again they just said we close at 5.30 and hung up .
Focus on yourself and your family for a day or so but I hear Caching Caching ..
Thank goodness so many people here have given you support and such good advice ..


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Poor Trish. I agree it sounds like it's getting quite aggravating! :frusty: I wouldn't put it past any vet or other dr. to give recommendations based on what fees they will bring in. It may not be the case here, but you don't feel comfortable so I also suggest you contact someone else...... if you can. 

I know what it's like to have kids (3) along with a home to care for, other pets and activities going on all the time. Sometimes a little break can do a world of good in making the right decision for YOU and that puppy of yours. I've been reading that there is no pain or discomfort (and YOU know best!) so do wait a bit and I'm sure things will work themselves out.


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## radar_jones (May 6, 2007)

I never would have thought about looking for an overbite until this thread. It's very interesting what you learn and the things that really make you concerned when you get a breed like this. So much potential for anything to happen. I wonder what a dental procedure for something like this would cost......$$$$$...pretty hefty price tag I bet.

Derek


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## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

*Derek..*

the fees are listed a few posts above yours.

trish


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## radar_jones (May 6, 2007)

Holy Mother of all Things Great and Small thats pretty steep for getting that fixed. I would do it though. If I would do it for me I would do it for them.

Derek


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## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

Hi again, Trish---REFLECTING MORE ON WINSTON'S OVERBITE: 
You certainly have a full plate as a young mom. I never took on a puppy when my kids were school age---I was a total wimp. I regret it, as it would have been such fun for them. As young adults living nearby, they adore Biscuit. They jokingly say that he has displaced them! ;-) Our Boy! So you're a great mom to do it ALL.

ANYHOW---I took a close look at 11 week old Winston's overbite pic and compared it to 10 mo old Biscuit's---pretty darn similar. Though a little hard for me to tell from the pic how much space precisely there is between Winston's top and bottom. I can wedge the tip of my little finger between Biskie's row of front teeth and lower jaw, and his upper canine extends the same way.

Of course, I am NOT a professional, but all this talk of teeth-pulling in a dog so young, with so much growth ahead of him, seems over-the-top to me. My young women vets were not alarmist, but very layed back about Biscuit's overbite, with a wait-and-see attitude. Maybe you should see another vet for a third opinion? 

Interestingly, Biscuit is one heck of a chewer (fortunately only on chew toys---can chew through all the ones that say "for powerful chewers"!) and I wonder if this isn't nature's way of maximizing the development of his jaw? 

Sorry I cannot provide a shot of Biscuit's jaw yet----lots going on here, but I'll try to do so soon.

I wish some more of the EXPERIENCED BREEDERS would weigh in on this, who have seen lots of Hav puppies develop. I'm a complete novice here.
Anyway, hope you are having a more relaxed weekend. All best!


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## Honey Poney's (Jun 21, 2007)

I can assure you that many overbites correct themself,
an underbite almost never.

*I most surely would DO NOTHING until he has his adult teeth and until he is fullgrown (if he can eat normaly ofcourse)*

Just be patience,


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## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

*Thanks Amy & Honey Poney...*

that's what I'm going with.

Why do an invasive surgery that could cause harm when he is in NO DISCOMFORT? Does this vet dentist want to remodel their bathroom or something? LOL.

Winston's eating, chewing on his toys, all just fine. I'm hoping his bite will not interfere with anything, if it does, ideally I'll be able to do neuter at same time, so he only goes under once. But probably with a different doc and possibly just have them removed if needed.

Trish


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I think that's a wise decision, Trish. I hope it does correct itself. I think sometimes the medical professionals tend to over focus on the negative speculation, and not the positive.

Kara


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

*How is Winston's bite*

Hi Trish, for some reason I was looking at Winston's absolutely adorable swimming pictures and I remembered that you were concerned about this?

Any more developments?


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## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

*Missy...*

thanks for thinking of us. We're still on the 'wait and see' path. The specialist wanted to put him under and pull his baby canines for the 'small chance' his jaw would grow in more....I hope I made the right decision in passing on that. My vet says we will have to wait and see if they'll need to be pulled or what. She still says it's 'severe' though so I'm not encoraged. Pulling them would be $800ish and would change his looks [his tongue would always hang out]...having them cut down and filled would be $1200. I'm still praying that he won't have issues. I think it was Tom King that had many farm dogs that never had problems with parrot mouth.

Trish


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## EMarie (Apr 11, 2007)

I was thinking about him the other day as well. I am glad it is not getting worse. I would love to see another picture of his bite if you were able to get one...I don't think you are making the wrong choice in waiting.

Erin


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## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

seeing another thread about an overbite made me want to give update...

Winston is now 4 and has had absolutely no problems with his overbite.

Thanks to this wonderful board and all their great advice I didn't do any unneeded surgeries or extractions and I also didn't give my beloved pupster back to the breeder [who was wonderful throughout the whoe thing].

He never went through the chewing phase that puppies go through. Some dog treats give him issue...I just have to break them...

That's the update for anyone researching parrot mouth.


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## heatherk (Feb 24, 2011)

TnTWalter said:


> seeing another thread about an overbite made me want to give update...
> 
> Winston is now 4 and has had absolutely no problems with his overbite.
> 
> ...


Wow, this forum and all of you members never cease to amaze me! I was browsing the latest posts and I noticed right away that the first post here was almost 4 years ago. And here you are, updating your post 4 years later, to try to help anybody who might be worried about the same thing!

I love this forum!!!


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