# Training Frustrations



## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

For the past couple of weeks, I've been working with Willow to try and get her to follow me on a leash when I think it's time to stop sniffing and move on. I started using the clicker and a treat but gave up on the clicker and am now just using treats. What I do is to call her, "Willow, Let's Go" turn in the direction I want to go and when I feel her start to follow I let her walk alongside of me and then present the treat. I don't treat first and I vary the number of steps I take before presenting a treat. She does this beautifully. She will trot my side and look up at me adoringly :wink2: every time.

My problem is, if she doesn't eventually get a treat, she just stops and basically says, "forget it. You don't have a treat so I'll just plant all four feet and stand her or go do what I want to do." I can't even put my hands in my pockets if they are cold because she thinks I'm getting a treat.

At what point can I expect her to do as I say without a treat? I am really trying to associate the treat with moving forward so I don't really think I'm luring her since I'm waiting for her to present the appropriate behaviour before rewarding. At times I'll hold the treat at waist level while we walk and then give it to her after a number of steps. Sometimes, I'll just give the Willow Let's Go command and after some steps I'll dig in my pocket for the treat. Am I doing this all wrong? :frusty: She's almost perfect as long as she eventually gets a treat.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

you've bribed her . try this


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Thanks Dave. I can't even get Willow to go sniff once I start with the treats. She is so focused on me she won't do anything else. I can't get her to walk on a loose leash unless she goes where she wants to go. If I give a pull or tug, she just plants all four feet. I would be dragging her if I pulled harder. Sometimes she'll even flop over on her back! I call her, "Willow, let's go" and she'll usually respond to that as I have practiced attention to her name with the clicker. When she starts to come and follow me with that command, I'll give a treat. I try to get her to stop focusing on me and go sniff but she continues to focus on me. That's not a bad thing I guess, but I would like her to someday walk with me and stop sniffing on command without a treat. I would like to someday stop using treats and just go for a walk with me like a "normal" dog!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yeah Jackie it can be frustrating. You've likely not faded out your treats when you trained her. This is a COMMON mistake many people make. Please don't let this discourage you. Perhaps a couple of lessons with a trainer can get you back on track . The last thing you want to happen is to give up going for walks.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Dave, I won't give up. I like walks to much to do that! Willow is really good if we go somewhere new or back in the woods on a trail. I'm really not sure how to "fade out" treats. I know Karen has said people try to stop giving treats way too soon. And then I'm not sure what the differences are between treats for lures, bribes or rewards. They seem all pretty much the same to me. Willow probably is a little better than she was. It's just slow and I want to stop with the treats but "she won't let me". I'll try to find some more videos online and get some advice from those.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> Dave, I won't give up. I like walks to much to do that! Willow is really good if we go somewhere new or back in the woods on a trail. I'm really not sure how to "fade out" treats. I know Karen has said people try to stop giving treats way too soon. And then I'm not sure what the differences are between treats for lures, bribes or rewards. They seem all pretty much the same to me. Willow probably is a little better than she was. It's just slow and I want to stop with the treats but "she won't let me". I'll try to find some more videos online and get some advice from those.


And not understanding the difference is part of the problem. It does sound like, whether you've meant to or not, you've been "luring" or at least "bribing" Willow with treats. That's COMPLETELY different than "rewarding".

What you have done (even though I understand that you've varied your number of steps) is create a "behavior chain". It goes like this...

*Willow stops
*You cue her to go again (which you shouldn't need to do, because she shouldn't stop until you give her permission)
*She goes a short distance
*You treat

The cycle starts again.

You need to break that pattern by treating BEFORE she stops. If she stops, and really wouldn't go without you dragging her, I'd wait her out. I'd stand there without saying a word, on the end of the leash, until she gets tired of it, and moves on. Then a quick "good girl!!!" Without a cookie reward and move on again. Only after she had gone a significant distance would I praise and treat.

That said, most dogs LIKE going for walks so I'd love to know what's going on that's making her want to stop. I think Dave's suggestion of having good trainer help you a time or two could be very beneficial. The trainer may notice something about what's going on that you haven't, and that could help you a lot.

Finally, I know you said that Willow id giving you good attention while you are walking. I assume you aren't really asking for this? I would actually not encourage it in any way. I know it's cute, but it is physically very demanding for a dog to do "heads up heeling" for any length of time. It's for the trial ring, not for casual walking. If you go for a walk with another person, both of you are looking where you are going, enjoying the scenery, nd occasionally glancing at each other. Even though you don't look at each other much, you can STILL remain close together and at a similar pace. Willow can learn to do that too.

Every once in a while, Kodi (who LOVES to heel) will fall into heeling beside me on a walk. I wave my arm ahead, and say "go be a dog!" that's his cue to do just that... be a dog, and good companion at the same time. I don't allow him to pull, I don't allow him to stop, (except with permission) but I ALSO don't want him in a formal heel.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

good stuff Karen.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

krandall
What you have done (even though I understand that you've varied your number of steps) is create a "behavior chain". It goes like this...
*Willow stops
*You cue her to go again (which you shouldn't need to do said:


> Karen, the cycle you describe at the beginning of your post is very much what I'm doing. I do treat her BEFORE she stops (although I have to stop in order to reach down to give it to her - and can't seem to get the treat to her while continuing to walk. But it is me, not her, that is stopping). I NEVER treat in order to get her to walk - I only treat AFTER she has responded to my command, "Willow, let's go" and after we have walked for a ways.
> 
> Yes, Willow does pay attention to me while I'm trying to teach her to walk. She almost does look like Kodi in some of the heeling videos you have posted. I don't ask her to do this but she is eager to please because she will know she'll get a treat!
> 
> ...


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