# Bickering Boys - lil' help please



## sprorchid (Mar 30, 2010)

Hi all,
background: I have three dogs: 
6.5 yr old female anatolian, Kara, 130 lbs (beautiful, just had TPLO surgery, but recovered well), got her at 10 months old, a rescue.

17 month old shih tzu/hav mix, Ollie, 14 lbs (my sweetie pie) very well rounded, social and generally well behaved, got him at 8 weeks old.

9 month anatolian male, intact (till his 12 month bday), Oz, almost 70 lbs and growing... super sweet, very affectionate, definitely a beta, a rescue but I've had him since 9 weeks old.

ok, so Kara is definitely the top of the food chain right under moi. both of the boyz suck up to her. Ollie and her get along flawlessly, it's super cute, Oz and her, not so much but he isn't as respectful to her as Ollie is.

but Oz and Ollie, they are love hate. both have resource guarding, food (treats not kibble) and ppl they like (me, and certain friends that come over) - ppl guarding - Oz won't let Ollie near the person so only Oz gets the attention.

So, Oz he's like eddie haskell. perfect when you are around, a rascal when you are not. Oz is the type when Ollie has something he wants, Oz slowly inches toward him and does the slow snatch.

Ollie, well, what can I say, he defends himself, most of the time, so he doesn't usually back down when Oz bickers back. 

typical scenario: Oz mugs ollie for his kong, Oz will have 2-3 kongs infront of him... Ollie holdd grudge and will randomly run up to Oz and b!itch at him, Oz usually just turns his head, and has a WTF look on his face, but sometimes Oz engages in a the bickering.

OR, (new behavior, just the last couple of days) Ollie won't let Oz into my room. Ollie will growl and bark (he sounds like the tasmanian devil, warner bros cartoon) Oz usually turns the other cheek, but sometime Oz reacts and then they get into a fight. 

Most of it is loud, but 3 days ago I founds tooth sized scabs on the base of Ollie's head and neck, like Oz had his mouth around him.

They play all the time together too. so... yes I've had a trainer come to consult, he's old school though, leash correction, blah blah blah, he wasn't that helpful, he was more interested in obedience training me, than anything else, I really wanted to get his thoughts about the bickering as none of my dogs have been bicker-ers.

I always break it up and give them both a time out. If Ollie is growling and not Oz (pre fight behavior), then Ollie boo gets a time out. 

generally when they get physical, Oz pins Ollie under his chest, if Oz can get it done. very loud and nasty sounding. If I hear them in another part of the house, Oz usually runs away (b/c he knows better). sometimes when I pull Oz off of Ollie, Ollie comes up breathing fire... ugh!
a minute later they might be playing together.

will they figure out the pack order one day?
what else can I do?


HELP! sorry for the long post.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

I am sorry you are having this problem. Resource guarding has nothing to do with social order. Resource guarding can be a real problem. You need to start working on this so it does not get worse. I remember Dave once put up a very nice article about it. My hav Yogi has a resource problem it has taken me months of watching and correcting him every night, I had many nights where I had to just watch him, it is hard to have your attention focused like that. It has been worth it, he no longer menaces the other dogs. If he feels uncomfortable with what one of the other dogs want to do, he now moves away and then comes back after they have settled.


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## sprorchid (Mar 30, 2010)

thx,
I know it's two separate issues. my prob is they don't RG around moi. when it's just me. it comes out around new ppl, different ppl, trainers, different/new dogs.

Oz is much more serious about his resource guardin than Ollie, overall, but Ollie is more possessive of me.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I'm hesitant to guess on this one. Too much going on. You need someone (not from the old school) to come in and see the dynamics going on. There might be more than just RG. Even though no serious damage seems to have been done., there is a bit of a problem possibly when there is such a discrepancy in sizes. A "good" trainer can help for sure. If you would like help finding one ,email me privately. You seem to be hinting at a linear heirarchy. But it's not always what it seems http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/alpha-fallacy


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## Ana's Mojito (Sep 24, 2007)

now that I read this post I thought of my 2 boys. The first time they had a fight I freaked out and later cried my heart out because I felt like "a Havanese does not fight!!" A little while later I reminded myself that they're dogs, male, intact (show dogs both) and I am the only human in my household. Mojito is 3 and a half, Mambo is 2 and a half, I still don't know who's alpha (between them, I know I'm supposed to be alpha, but I have a feeling I'm the only one who thinks it...). They go months without fighting, and sometimes it just happens very frequently, so I'm watching for signals to stop them before it happens, but it's hard to do it all the time. It will more likely happen when I'm gone for a long period of time (anything fro 4 days to two weeks). They stay home with a lady who cares for them (they know her, she comes in to clean every day) and they never fight when she's around, it's when I appear after that long period. Are they fighting over my attention? over me? I'd love to know more about this behavior if anyone has any advice please!! What I do now is not shower them with love (like I'd like to do) too soon after I'm back and ignore them for a while. ( There are no "good" trainers around where I live, just your basic by-the-book obedience.... thanks for any advice!!!!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Ana's Mojito said:


> now that I read this post I thought of my 2 boys. The first time they had a fight I freaked out and later cried my heart out because I felt like "a Havanese does not fight!!" A little while later I reminded myself that they're dogs, male, intact (show dogs both) and I am the only human in my household. Mojito is 3 and a half, Mambo is 2 and a half, I still don't know who's alpha (between them, I know I'm supposed to be alpha, but I have a feeling I'm the only one who thinks it...). They go months without fighting, and sometimes it just happens very frequently, so I'm watching for signals to stop them before it happens, but it's hard to do it all the time. It will more likely happen when I'm gone for a long period of time (anything fro 4 days to two weeks). They stay home with a lady who cares for them (they know her, she comes in to clean every day) and they never fight when she's around, it's when I appear after that long period. Are they fighting over my attention? over me? I'd love to know more about this behavior if anyone has any advice please!! What I do now is not shower them with love (like I'd like to do) too soon after I'm back and ignore them for a while. ( There are no "good" trainers around where I live, just your basic by-the-book obedience.... thanks for any advice!!!!


Hi, love your dogs names. Without getting into specifics too much ,I might recommend forgetting about the alpha theory. It's bascially ancient history, and inaccurate history at that. If you feel your guys are in need of some training help , I would be willing to help find someone for you. Without seeing what's going on ,it's not up to me to guess . You could be right. It may be a from of resource guarding. Email me privately if you are interested.


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

Ack! I would try a different trainer. 

After six months of carefully keeping my dogs separated, I think that Nessie has finally accepted that Jack isn't going to leave if she growls. Nessie thinks that the house is hers. Jack and she have a good time outside but when they are inside, egads! Nessie has resource issues, too. Absolutely no people food at all. It flips the evil switch and Nessie becomes the snarky b!tch. 

The personal suggestions from my trainer worked for us.


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## sprorchid (Mar 30, 2010)

well,
I just got back from Paris, France for 1 week (spring break, I work at a school), and I had a housesitter (someone in the neighborhood that knows my dogs) stay at the house, and they were professionally walked off leash everyday.

no fighting. my dog walker told me that she's never seen my boys bicker, so i guess that's good news.

I hadn't figured out this behavior before, but my house sitter did.

If ollie (the little one) is on my bed first, he barks sometimes to try and keep Oz off. If oz is on the bed first, Ollie jumps on, and literally tries to dig him off his spot. ok, I know I shouldn't laugh, but it's absolutely hysterical. ofcourse the digging is in vane and never works. but my question is what's up with that?

thx.


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## StarrLhasa (Jun 6, 2010)

Sometimes my girl, Buffy, uses her nose to nudge my boy, Buster, off the cushion or out of the doggie bed he is laying on. It is hilarious. 

She lays down next to him and uses her nose to flip him off or out. Sometimes it works, and she lays down where he was. He usually looks surprised. LOL


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