# Vet accidentally gave wrong vaccination, what would you do?



## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

OK, the title sounds more sinister than what happened, but I couldn't think of better verbage.

I took Keeper to the vet for his parvo booster. I called and asked for him to be given just the parvo/distemper instead of the 4-in-1 for this last shot, so that was in his notes. I go to the vet, they come get him out of the car, and I wait. The vet checked him over and then called me to confirm that yes, I only wanted the parvo/distemper, she said she was going to give that to him, then the admin would call me for payment, etc etc. So I get the next call from admin, it'll be $100, I give her my payment info and wait for keeper to be brought out. 

The vet tech brought him out and handed him to me with "now, we need to talk about this". My mind immediately flew to..did Keeper bite them? .. the vet tech says that when she went to grab the vaccine from the fridge, she accidentally grabbed the 4-in-1 and that was what Keeper got. They did not charge me for the vaccine, so they only charged me $65. I told her that I appreciated her letting me know about the mistake (I would have known anyways, as they put the sticker from the vial on the vaccine certificate), and for not charging me for the vaccine.

Then I started driving home and realized...this means that the vet did not double check what she was injecting into my dog. In fact, because they told me it was $100 and then realized they dropped the price AFTER they told me what it was going to be - which means they didn't realize it until they were getting the paperwork together with the certificate. What would have happened if the vet tech was looking at one vaccine, but grabbed a vial for something completely different and he got something completely different that could have adverse effects? (Or what if it happens to someone else?)

I *do* appreciate the vet tech owning up to her mistake AND to the discount. But I cannot believe that the vet didn't double check the label. Though maybe she was on autopilot and saw that it was what they normally give. But we had JUST talked on the phone minutes before. It should have been fresh in her mind.

.. Now, keep in mind this is ontop of them having already had Keeper's birthdate wrong even though I gave them the information twice on his first intake (I saw it was wrong on his first certificate and they did fix it). But how does one type in "19th" when they had it infront of them in two places that it was the "24th"? So it seems like lack of attention COULD be a thing at this clinic?

This is a new vet I was trying out because they are more raw friendly, and open to titres where my normal vet prefers to sell her Hills brand food and do regular vaccinations. She is OK with me titring, but because of how she said it, I'm not confident she'll read the titres correctly. This new vet has SO many good reviews, but mostly about the owner of the clinic. The vet I've been seeing is not the owner. I also know that it's covid time and things aren't running as smoothly as normal.

But... is my being upset overreacting to the situation? I am most likely not going to return there for Keeper again, am I "justified" by that? (I know, we are free to change vets and get second opinions and all that, but I'm just wondering if I'm going overboard with my thoughts here).


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

As a raw feeder myself, I can understand the importance of having a vet that supports raw feeding. Otherwise, there is the fear that they are going to first blame the raw diet for issues vs getting to root cause. This is very aggravating and I have seen this first hand. It is ironic that the vets who sell kibble rarely look at diet first and often the solution is to give different “prescription” kibble to fix the issue.

However, IMO a vet’s accuracy and attention to detail are much more important. Here is a non-pressure situation where they made two mistakes. I know we are all human but I could not forgive this myself. What happens when you have an emergency or high pressure situation with your dog?

Are there any other advantages to this vet in addition to the raw feeding? Do they provide services such as chiropractic, acupuncture or laser therapy for example? What about the other vet? When they do anesthesia, do they have a qualified and dedicated person monitoring it? I ask this because Mia recently had a dental cleaning and there was an anesthesia issue. Luckily the vet was on top of it.

Is your concern about titer reading that the kibble feeding vet will advise vaccines for a lower titer level than the other vet? Can you just skip the vaccines based upon your opinion of the titer level?

Are there any other vets in your area to consider?

Good luck with your decision!


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## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

Those are good questions.
I agree with the lack of detail, that is definitely my concern. 

The biggest issue is exactly what you have outlined with my previous vet (the kibble vet). Trying to tell me that issues are based on diet, when they may not be. And that she would tell me to vaccinate when numbers are at a level that they need not be. I'm not sure if she would provide me with a report as they do the titres in house. I guess that's a question I need to ask.

The kibble vet was GREAT with our past reactive wheatie and does promote things like fear-free visits, does laser therapy, acupuncture, advertises that they do holistic (though I've never seen that side of it). She is also one who when presented with something that needs to be taken care of... will give you options and let you decide without judgement which route you go. She is also not above getting second opinions when it's something she isn't sure of. In those ways, she is phenomenal. She also kept insisting I neuter Denver at a younger age than I did (she wanted me to do it at 6 months, but I held firm on waiting til he was a year). So there are some "old school" thoughts there too. 

There are other vets in my area, but this one that I tried was SO highly recommended as THE raw feeder vet in the city. So, I am hesitant at this point to keep looking.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

I’d be more concerned about the mishap. Two of them. Something in an emergency situation could go wrong. With feeding, well as the owner, that’s your choice. Same with titers (I think there might be a legal issue with rabies, but idk). I tend to think of vets like I do pediatricians. I breastfeed long term. Some drs push formula supplementation. I just ignore it. I don’t choose to circumcise. Neither of these things are the dr’s business. They aren’t nutritionists. They have bias from decisions they may have made w their own kids. Those are PARENTING decisions vs medical. 

But if my kid is SICK, they need to be trusted to handle that. If they need meds, I need them to get it right. If god forbid there is an emergency, they need to not inject the wrong thing. (And yes I believe in fully vaccinating kids, but that’s a bit different than dogs, where they’ve been legitimately over-vaccinating so we’ll keep that issue out of my analogy lol). 

Now, if there’s a perfect vet out there and you don’t need to choose either/ or go with that one!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Melissa Woods said:


> I'd be more concerned about the mishap. Two of them. Something in an emergency situation could go wrong. With feeding, well as the owner, that's your choice. Same with titers (I think there might be a legal issue with rabies, but idk). I tend to think of vets like I do pediatricians. I breastfeed long term. Some drs push formula supplementation. I just ignore it. I don't choose to circumcise. Neither of these things are the dr's business. They aren't nutritionists. They have bias from decisions they may have made w their own kids. Those are PARENTING decisions vs medical.
> 
> But if my kid is SICK, they need to be trusted to handle that. If they need meds, I need them to get it right. If god forbid there is an emergency, they need to not inject the wrong thing. (And yes I believe in fully vaccinating kids, but that's a bit different than dogs, where they've been legitimately over-vaccinating so we'll keep that issue out of my analogy lol).
> 
> Now, if there's a perfect vet out there and you don't need to choose either/ or go with that one!


Good points here. A lot of decisions are OURS to make, not the vet. I have ignored vet advice on numerous occasions, especially regarding diet. I also ignore their advice on flea/ tick preventatives. My dogs have probably had a 1000 ticks on them in their lifetime. They are super healthy at 11 and 12. Also, ANY titer level is enough to keep me from vaccinating my dog. However, if a vet starts blaming things on a raw diet it can be super aggravating. So I can definitely understand this concern. For example, if a puppy ingests something bad and gets sick, I do not want to listen to a vet telling me the diet I am feeding my dog is making them sick. But this has happened to me.


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## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

That's what my breeder stated too - that any numbers on the titres are good enough, but I haven't done the research myself. My vet made a comment about numbers usually being low enough that annual vaccines are needed anyways.. which is why I wasn't sure she would interpret it "correctly" since it's not something they normally do. Though, I would research all that myself before I need to worry about it (which is soon, actually.. Denver's annual visit is in October..so I have a few months to bone up on it).

Melissa, you are right bout the low stress visit and having mishaps and high stress ones. Do I trust this vet anymore? No. So we definitely will not be returning.

I looked last night and found a holistic vet that I may try. The vet graduated in Beijing and then also took chinese medicine and does a mix of traditional and holistic practices. May be worth my checking him out! https://calgaryholisticvet.com/


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Wulfin said:


> That's what my breeder stated too - that any numbers on the titres are good enough, but I haven't done the research myself. My vet made a comment about numbers usually being low enough that annual vaccines are needed anyways.. which is why I wasn't sure she would interpret it "correctly" since it's not something they normally do. Though, I would research all that myself before I need to worry about it (which is soon, actually.. Denver's annual visit is in October..so I have a few months to bone up on it).
> 
> Melissa, you are right bout the low stress visit and having mishaps and high stress ones. Do I trust this vet anymore? No. So we definitely will not be returning.
> 
> I looked last night and found a holistic vet that I may try. The vet graduated in Beijing and then also took chinese medicine and does a mix of traditional and holistic practices. May be worth my checking him out! https://calgaryholisticvet.com/


I think that there are many opinions on what titer levels are necessary. I had a holistic vet who was very aware of over vaccination dangers. One of my yorkie's titers came up to what she considered to be low. She said we may need to think about boostering. I said no thanks. Have not done any titers since. Again, everyone is entitled to their own opinions so no hater comments please.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Woods said:


> I'd be more concerned about the mishap. Two of them. Something in an emergency situation could go wrong. With feeding, well as the owner, that's your choice. Same with titers (I think there might be a legal issue with rabies, but idk). I tend to think of vets like I do pediatricians. I breastfeed long term. Some drs push formula supplementation. I just ignore it. I don't choose to circumcise. Neither of these things are the dr's business. They aren't nutritionists. They have bias from decisions they may have made w their own kids. Those are PARENTING decisions vs medical.
> 
> But if my kid is SICK, they need to be trusted to handle that. If they need meds, I need them to get it right. If god forbid there is an emergency, they need to not inject the wrong thing. (And yes I believe in fully vaccinating kids, but that's a bit different than dogs, where they've been legitimately over-vaccinating so we'll keep that issue out of my analogy lol).
> 
> Now, if there's a perfect vet out there and you don't need to choose either/ or go with that one!


I think this is an excellent analysis. And I think being grateful that they didn't charge for the "extra" vaccine they poked him with is VERY generous of you. WHAT?!?! OF COURSE they shouldn't charge you! If a surgeon operates on the wrong knee, do they get to charge for that? 

I don't think it will do Keeper a lot of harm in the long run. You are being carefull overall with vaccines. With TWo mistakes like this in a row with this vet, I would definitely be moving on. What if he had an allergy to one of the components and THAT was the reason you'd asked not to use it? They need to be a LOT more careful. And more than one person needs to check.

I have a friend who teaches vet tech students in college. One of the part of the finals is a "practical" where they have to get a "fake" dog out of a kennel and administer a med. She fails any student who doesn't check the ID of the animal and the med being administered before giving it. That's how important it is.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Good points here. A lot of decisions are OURS to make, not the vet. I have ignored vet advice on numerous occasions, especially regarding diet. I also ignore their advice on flea/ tick preventatives. My dogs have probably had a 1000 ticks on them in their lifetime. They are super healthy at 11 and 12. Also, ANY titer level is enough to keep me from vaccinating my dog. However, if a vet starts blaming things on a raw diet it can be super aggravating. So I can definitely understand this concern. For example, if a puppy ingests something bad and gets sick, I do not want to listen to a vet telling me the diet I am feeding my dog is making them sick. But this has happened to me.


I would hope it doesn't even have to be a matter of ignoring. I would hope you can have an open conversation with a vet, and come to your own, educated decision for your animal and be respected for that decision.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> I think that there are many opinions on what titer levels are necessary. I had a holistic vet who was very aware of over vaccination dangers. One of my yorkie's titers came up to what she considered to be low. She said we may need to think about boostering. I said no thanks. Have not done any titers since. Again, everyone is entitled to their own opinions so no hater comments please.


My vet and I have talked about titers and I've read a LOT about titers. I know that after an initial titer that a "low titer" does not NECESSARILY mean no immunity. It ALSO does not NECESSARILY mean the dog does have immunity. That puts us in "we don't know" land, where we all have to make our own educated guess on what is best for our own animal.

My vet's advice, and it makes sense to me, is that if a titer drops on distemper or parvo, she leaves it up to the owner UNLESS there is an outbreak in the area, in which case, she recommends it. In Kodi's case, with the Rabies vaccine, we are living on the edge. He is old enough that it is unlikely that his titer will drop before he "ages out", but if he does, do we take a chance that he is "really protected"? Rabies is a terrible thing, and any dog who EVER goes outdoors is potentially at risk. Heck, bats get into oulder houses too. We don't OFTEN have them in the house, but it has happened. OTOH, his last Rabies shot almost killed him. KNOWING that, IF he ever had another one, we could pre-medicate him with steroids and antihistamines, but...


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## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

I’m feeling much better about my decision to “fire” this vet and as they ask for google reviews, I will most likely be doing that. Because while Keeper won’t suffer for it, it could happen to someone else, it could be a total different vaccine grabbed by mistake with large ramifications.

Thanks Karen about the information on titres. I will definitely be doing more reading of my own on the subject because I do want to be informed first hand so I can have those conversations on my own merit. 

I reached out to my breeder and she’s going to give me the name of a vet she talked to at a conference, and go from there.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Wulfin said:


> I'm feeling much better about my decision to "fire" this vet and as they ask for google reviews, I will most likely be doing that. Because while Keeper won't suffer for it, it could happen to someone else, it could be a total different vaccine grabbed by mistake with large ramifications.
> 
> Thanks Karen about the information on titres. I will definitely be doing more reading of my own on the subject because I do want to be informed first hand so I can have those conversations on my own merit.
> 
> I reached out to my breeder and she's going to give me the name of a vet she talked to at a conference, and go from there.


The more I think about them telling you "they didn't charge you", the more steamed I get! They shouldn't have charged you for the entire visit, IMO!


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## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

I don’t disagree. 
Tensions in my city around vets are high as a guinea pig owner assaulted a vet here this week, so if that hadn’t happened, I’m not sure I would have received any “compensation” for their error.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

In principle, I 100% agree to move on. The example that comes to my mind is the same as Karen, what if it had been allergy related? My only concern is what would be your alternative? If he needs his next shot really soon, that doesn’t give you a lot of time. I might consider working with the office to be present during the next shot to give you more time to look for a new vet. 

I would have a really hard time leaving my Havanese in the midst of COVID when owners aren’t allowed in the room. I am and avoiding taking mine to the vet unless necessary until this passes. But, that’s really not possible with timed immunizations. Don’t get me wrong, I think it is really important that people protect themselves and others and I believe the health threat is serious, but I also believe one pet parent should be accompanying the pet into the office. This would NEVER happen in any kind of medical facility involving children, there wouldn’t even be a question about a parent being present to make sure important information is communicated, supervise treatment, etc. The idea that a pet parent isn’t necessary to communicate for an animal that is vulnerable and can’t communicate for themselves is kind of insane to me. I understood in the beginning, when vet offices were trying to provide treatment and protect everyone in an emergency situation where we had very little information. But, this is not going away any time soon, and they need to find ways to protect everyone while making sure the parent is in the room. I get that it’s harder to do with pets, particularly transferring the pet from the owner to another person, but we’ve had time now to be creative. Right now when I take DS for his infusions at the hospital we go through 3 separate screenings to get to his treatment room. Everyone is wearing a mask and gloves, they having cleaning protocols, no siblings or extra adults are allowed, and we don’t go to any waiting rooms. There are ways to keep everyone safe, and I feel like we’ve reached the point where it’s become easier to just have parents wait in the car. 

That being said, my personal experiences with DS is that even the best doctors make mistakes. Our best healthcare teams know this and have precautions in place to prevent these things from happening, like two people double checking every IV and injection (including immunizations). This is protocol at the hospital. They don’t have any problem with questions to verify or clarify from parents.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

I would not return to this vet because of their lack of attention to your request and Keeper. Did the vet or tech give the vaccine? They first chose the wrong vaccine which should have been caught before administering. Then they didn't recheck what was too be given, the correct pet and dose before administering. I'm surprised you were charged anything for the visit. The vet should have been the person to inform you that Keeper did not receive the correct vaccine. I really don't like that.


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## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

Actually, here, kids did go into hospitals, etc without parents. because our protocols in Alberta are very strict. They are just now allowed to have one parent in with them. And believe me, if it were routine checkups, I wouldn’t have done it. But, these are puppy vaccinations and need to be done. He goes to daycare, etc., and he needs the immunity.

Heather - the tech got the vaccine, the vet gave it. So it was a failure of checks.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> That being said, my personal experiences with DS is that even the best doctors make mistakes. Our best healthcare teams know this and have precautions in place to prevent these things from happening, like two people double checking every IV and injection (including immunizations). This is protocol at the hospital. They don't have any problem with questions to verify or clarify from parents.


Mistakes do happen because it's not a perfect world, but there is always a reason. It's because someone is in a hurry, overwhelmed, omitting the proper checks or poor communication of an order. There are the five right of administering medications so errors cannot happen if followed. In a hospital situation it is extremely busy with multiple things happening all at once. Although the vet may have been busy this was just one vaccine to be given.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Heather's said:


> Mistakes do happen because it's not a perfect world, but there is always a reason. It's because someone is in a hurry, overwhelmed, omitting the proper checks or poor communication of an order. There are the five right of administering medications so errors cannot happen if followed. In a hospital situation it is extremely busy with multiple things happening all at once. Although the vet may have been busy this was just one vaccine to be given.


I don't know about the 5 rights but this reminded me of the medication protocol when DS is admitted. They are verified by 2 nurses, then each medication is individually verified with the patient. These things have caught errors in medications more times thrn I can even remember, preventing double daily doses and catching dosage errors because of split pills.

Of course an emergency situation is different, but that's also why the nurses and doctors in the ER are some of the best. They are skilled, efficient in learning and implementing protocols to prevent mistakes as much as possible, their personalities generally handle pressure and high stress situations, and they're less likely to make mistakes in the first place, but it still happens sometimes. Yet I find these types of people to accountable, hold themselves to high standards, and they don't make the same mistakes twice!

I agree that in a routine vaccination setting it really doesn't make sense that this happened. There should be multiple points where this mistake could have been prevented.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> I would hope it doesn't even have to be a matter of ignoring. I would hope you can have an open conversation with a vet, and come to your own, educated decision for your animal and be respected for that decision.


Yes I agree which brings up one of the most important things to look for in a vet - open communication. In my case, I feel that my dogs are super low risk for Parvo and Distemper and I do not like the idea of vaccinating senior dogs. Therefore, I quit titering because I wasn't going to vaccinate them anyway. Everyone needs to assess their own risk. The main disease mine are probably at risk for is lepto and I am definitely not doing that one. Rabies is a legal one and titers do not count legally here so I was not thinking of that one. However, there is a lot of disagreement on what constitutes a low titer. This is something to think about when titering.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> My vet and I have talked about titers and I've read a LOT about titers. I know that after an initial titer that a "low titer" does not NECESSARILY mean no immunity. It ALSO does not NECESSARILY mean the dog does have immunity. That puts us in "we don't know" land, where we all have to make our own educated guess on what is best for our own animal.
> 
> My vet's advice, and it makes sense to me, is that if a titer drops on distemper or parvo, she leaves it up to the owner UNLESS there is an outbreak in the area, in which case, she recommends it. In Kodi's case, with the Rabies vaccine, we are living on the edge. He is old enough that it is unlikely that his titer will drop before he "ages out", but if he does, do we take a chance that he is "really protected"? Rabies is a terrible thing, and any dog who EVER goes outdoors is potentially at risk. Heck, bats get into oulder houses too. We don't OFTEN have them in the house, but it has happened. OTOH, his last Rabies shot almost killed him. KNOWING that, IF he ever had another one, we could pre-medicate him with steroids and antihistamines, but...


This is a hard decision but I don't think I could give a rabies vaccine again to a dog who had a life threatening reaction. I am ok with occasionally living on the edge. I would rather risk putting him down for getting rabies than dying from the vaccine. It is a gamble. This is a tough one. If he is supervised while outside I would think the risk is low. For a farm dog or outside dog, the risk is so much higher. I know a bat could get in but would think the risk of that is very low. And I think they over dramatize how many bats have rabies. Pre-medicating can only do so much.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Wulfin said:


> Actually, here, kids did go into hospitals, etc without parents. because our protocols in Alberta are very strict. They are just now allowed to have one parent in with them. And believe me, if it were routine checkups, I wouldn't have done it. But, these are puppy vaccinations and need to be done. He goes to daycare, etc., and he needs the immunity.
> 
> Heather - the tech got the vaccine, the vet gave it. So it was a failure of checks.


Where I'm located I think they opted to close all non essential pediatric services rather than send children in without parents. But we've been in for specialty clinics, the emergency room, and other treatments. I can't believe they'd have a kid go into the emergency room or have an IV placed without a parent! Or even get immunizations alone. Even my 13 year old, who is really independent and wants to do everything alone, is not ready for an immunization by herself.

Although, when I think about it, DD goes in to the orthodontist and that kind of thing on her own. But they just barely opened. DS can't even remember all of his medications yet, although he can verify them if someone reads them to him. I mean, I would love for my kids to have some medical independence before they go to college, but we are not there yet! I can't imagine a pet needing medical privacy, though.

There's not much to do if the offices are limits by local guidelines, and there are advantages to strict guidelines for sure. It just seems like there have been of few of these cases lately, of mistakes in vet offices. Maybe this one wouldn't have been prevented with a parent/owner present. It just seems like finding creative ways to use plexiglass, or of handing off a puppy to a neutral area, might be safer overall. I hope we get there soon!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> This is a hard decision but I don't think I could give a rabies vaccine again to a dog who had a life threatening reaction. I am ok with occasionally living on the edge. I would rather risk putting him down for getting rabies than dying from the vaccine. It is a gamble. This is a tough one. If he is supervised while outside I would think the risk is low. For a farm dog or outside dog, the risk is so much higher. I know a bat could get in but would think the risk of that is very low. And I think they over dramatize how many bats have rabies. Pre-medicating can only do so much.


Which is kind of where I am right now... that doesn't mean I don't worry about it... because that's what I do. LOL!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I mean, I would love for my kids to have some medical independence before they go to college.


LOL! That was the deciding factor on my younger son going to a commuter school Freshman year. (remembering that we live in Eastern MA, where there are a LOT of excellent schools within easy driving distance) He was not independent managing his meds, and we said he couldn't live on campus until he was. By the time he WAS independent managing his meds, he LIKED his school and realized the benefits of getting out of school with a lot less debt.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

I think you are right to change vets. It sounds like there are at least 2 that are unable to do their job safely.
One of my neighbors is a vet very close by. When he opened his practice, I decided to try him. My dog needed a dental cleaning. He got sick after the cleaning. I always wonder if something they did caused his illness. Coughing, choking then vomitting. It was bad for months. He had been sedated twice before without issue. 
I kept going to this vet and three times, they made mistakes with medications. Careless mistakes. Once the vet tech chased me down in the parking lot saying that she gave me the wrong thing. Another time, I noticed it was wrong before I gave it. Third time is a long story but no actual harm was done to the dog wth these mistakes.
I should have left sooner. You will not trust these people. Your dogs' health is too important.


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## RIstream (Aug 21, 2008)

krandall said:


> My vet and I have talked about titers and I've read a LOT about titers. I know that after an initial titer that a "low titer" does not NECESSARILY mean no immunity. It ALSO does not NECESSARILY mean the dog does have immunity. That puts us in "we don't know" land, where we all have to make our own educated guess on what is best for our own animal.
> 
> My vet's advice, and it makes sense to me, is that if a titer drops on distemper or parvo, she leaves it up to the owner UNLESS there is an outbreak in the area, in which case, she recommends it. In Kodi's case, with the Rabies vaccine, we are living on the edge. He is old enough that it is unlikely that his titer will drop before he "ages out", but if he does, do we take a chance that he is "really protected"? Rabies is a terrible thing, and any dog who EVER goes outdoors is potentially at risk. Heck, bats get into oulder houses too. We don't OFTEN have them in the house, but it has happened. OTOH, his last Rabies shot almost killed him. KNOWING that, IF he ever had another one, we could pre-medicate him with steroids and antihistamines, but...


I was told that they can only titer for distemper and parvo but not rabies. Is that not true?


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

RIstream said:


> I was told that they can only titer for distemper and parvo but not rabies. Is that not true?


Not true. I have titered for rabies in the past.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

RIstream said:


> I was told that they can only titer for distemper and parvo but not rabies. Is that not true?


Yes and no. A rabies titer is not legal in place of rabies vaccine in most states. So from that perspective your vet may mean that they can't titer in place of vaccine. ONE state, I believe it is Maryland, now accepts Rabies titers rather than vaccine, so hopefully, this will start to change. If you are vaccinating on the legally required schedule, there is NO need to titer for Rabies. And a Rabies titer is expensive. (Over $300)

Here in MA, if a dog has a serious health condition that makes a rabies vaccination a serious risk, and a vet will write a letter confirming that, you can get a rabies vaccine waiver for your dog. THEN, depending on your town, they may require a rabies titer. (Mine does) The titer, as I said, costs a LOT more than the vaccination, so if there so need to be pretty motivated to do it!

In our case, when Kodi had his last rabies shot, (at 4 years of age) he ended up in the emergency hospital for several days on IV's with a high fever. His vet won't give him ANY vaccines anymore (even if I hadn't already made the decision to titer him for distemper and parvo before that!) He has big read warning labels on his file saying hipe is not to be vaccinated for anything. As a result, getting a waiver for him has not been a problem.

However, my vet has suggested that we titer him every 3 years, just so that WE know that he is protected from rabies. (Incidentally, this is ALSO what is done for humans who are vaccinated for Rabies, because it is obviously not a disease where we can risk live virus challenge studies in humans) So far, at 11, he still has a good high titer. We are hoping that doesn't change for the rest of his life!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> Yes and no. A rabies titer is not legal in place of rabies vaccine in most states. So from that perspective your vet may mean that they can't titer in place of vaccine. ONE state, I believe it is Maryland, now accepts Rabies titers rather than vaccine, so hopefully, this will start to change. If you are vaccinating on the legally required schedule, there is NO need to titer for Rabies. And a Rabies titer is expensive. (Over $300)
> 
> Here in MA, if a dog has a serious health condition that makes a rabies vaccination a serious risk, and a vet will write a letter confirming that, you can get a rabies vaccine waiver for your dog. THEN, depending on your town, they may require a rabies titer. (Mine does) The titer, as I said, costs a LOT more than the vaccination, so if there so need to be pretty motivated to do it!
> 
> ...


Karen I was just wondering. Did Kodi have any bad reactions to rabies or other vaccinations prior to the major reaction he had at age 4 from the rabies vaccine? I have always wondered if a mild reaction is any indication there could be a worse reaction next time, or if that matters.


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## adalah (Feb 6, 2019)

Following!this seems like a very interesting thread


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Karen I was just wondering. Did Kodi have any bad reactions to rabies or other vaccinations prior to the major reaction he had at age 4 from the rabies vaccine? I have always wondered if a mild reaction is any indication there could be a worse reaction next time, or if that matters.


No, no reaction until to Rabies one, but then again, we were already titering for distemper and parvo, and he wasn't getting anything else. So who knows? I CERTAINLY allowed him to be over-vaccinated as a puppy without understanding enough and trusting the local vet too much. I knew enough not to allow them to give him everything at once, but they did give him EVERYTHING!!! Fortunately, after his one-year "boosters" (and my girls never even got those, other than Rabies by law) I had smartened up, and before he would have been due again (even THAT vet only vaccinated on a 3 year schedule) I had switched to my current vet and we were titering. Except for Rabies, of course. So who knows if he WOULD have had a reaction to any others? My current vet won't take a chance with it.

But I DO attribute his allergy problems at least partly to vaccinosis. My other dogs have not been over-vaccinated, and neither has ANY allergy problems, even the one who is closely related to him.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> No, no reaction until to Rabies one, but then again, we were already titering for distemper and parvo, and he wasn't getting anything else. So who knows? I CERTAINLY allowed him to be over-vaccinated as a puppy without understanding enough and trusting the local vet too much. I knew enough not to allow them to give him everything at once, but they did give him EVERYTHING!!! Fortunately, after his one-year "boosters" (and my girls never even got those, other than Rabies by law) I had smartened up, and before he would have been due again (even THAT vet only vaccinated on a 3 year schedule) I had switched to my current vet and we were titering. Except for Rabies, of course. So who knows if he WOULD have had a reaction to any others? My current vet won't take a chance with it.
> 
> But I DO attribute his allergy problems at least partly to vaccinosis. My other dogs have not been over-vaccinated, and neither has ANY allergy problems, even the one who is closely related to him.


Karen, thanks for sharing. Mia is WAY over vaccinated! She got her one year boosters for everything including lepto. Although she looked horrid for a couple weeks I did not notice anything super bad. Then a few weeks later she got the rabies vaccine. Shortly afterwards she started having seizures. I asked the vet if this could possibly be related to the rabies vaccine and she said it is probably just low blood sugar which Mia had never ever had before in her life. Not having a clue at this point that vaccines were anything but wonderful I believed this. I started feeding Mia more often and gave her a snack before bed. The seizures kept up but eventually stopped after a few months. Then at age two, the vet boosted Mia again for everything except Rabies because she had the 3 year rabies shot. No mention of titers or that the rules had changed to vaccinate every 3 years. The seizures came back immediately and were worse. Around this time I had become knowledgeable about vaccinosis and I was convinced that the seizures were related to the vaccines. I fired this vet and found another one who was more knowledgeable regarding vaccines. She was on board with my decision to never vaccinate Mia again. Mia did have seizures sporadically for a few years and then they stopped. Thankfully Mia has no allergies from over vaccination that I know of other than to Frontline. She should not be on flea meds anyway since they are all neurotoxins and definitely not appropriate for dogs with a history of seizures IMO.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Yes, the problem with vaccinosis is that dogs have “no problems” until they “have problems”. And then you are in for a world of hurt. It’s very similar to the problem with grapes. Many dogs ate grapes for years and never had a single problem. Now EVERYONE avoids grapes like they are deathly poison. Many dogs would STILL be fine if they ate grapes, but we avoid them with all dogs because we can. But vets (at least a lot of them) do not warn about the POTENTIAL problems of vaccinosis or problems from flea and tick chemicals with SOME (not all) dogs. Yes, many of these things are “generally safe”. But they aren’t ALWAYS safe, and if your dog is one of the ones that has a problem... it can be bad.

And we KNOW that Havanese are a chemically sensitive breed, so it pays to be as careful as we can.


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## lokitor (10 mo ago)

Of course, there may be two points of view in this situation. The veterinarian could be tired, think about something, and accidentally could put another vaccine. Every specialist is capable of making a mistake, and you never know if you will become a victim of this situation. It only matters how you feel about it. If you are tired of this attitude from the clinic staff, you should look for another medical institution. If everything suits you and you forgive them for the first time, you can ignore it. When I first started studying for an online groomer course, I was also dissatisfied with the quality of teaching. However, I understood the learning process over time, and everything became fine. By the way, everyone can learn this craft. There are no student loans for these programs, so you will have to pay the entire amount. Have there been any more unpleasant situations in this clinic?


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