# Use of ex pens long or short term? What does "reliable" mean to you?



## smemft (Feb 22, 2017)

Hi All,

Have you or do you plan to use an ex pen long or short term? At this point, with my oldest, Chloe, only being five-months-old, I couldn't imagine not using an ex pen. I use an ex pen (with an open-door crate and potty tray inside) at night for sleeping, when they are alone at the house (two hours max, approx. 2-3x per week), and for my new three-month-old, Chandler, when neither my husband nor I can have eyes on him. 

Chloe was never a "chewer" on household items other than her toys, but Chandler does have more of an inclination toward that propensity. For a few days, he was fixated on attempting to chew at an imperfection on our wood floor (which has now ceased) and attempted to chew a dining room chair but it was quickly corrected since he is never left unsupervised outside of his ex pen. He likes to put his head inside of and chew on shoes but has only had that opportunity for a quick, few seconds at the most.

I am at a point now where I feel comfortable with our five-month-old to come and go out of the doggie door (which leads to a securely fenced yard) and to be unsupervised downstairs while I am upstairs for an hour or two. She hasn't had a potty training accident in quite some time and doesn't display any interest in chewing household items. The only thing she currently does that concerns me is chewing on outside matter (sticks, leaves, etc.) so I leave chews and toys on the porch and do check on her outside if she's out there longer than 30-40 minutes. She still struggles with "leave it" and will drop what I request but will return to it later if given the opportunity (it's impossible to remove all of the outside matter she enjoys chewing on out there). Hopefully she'll outgrow this? 

Friends of ours have two sweet, extremely well-behaved, older Maltese and they are left to freely roam the house, even when the owners are away, and they don't crate or use an ex pen. At this point, I couldn't fathom ever being comfortable with at any time in the future but perhaps that could change. Is being able to let a dog/s freely roam the house and/or yard a reasonable goal or do most Hav owners use a crate/ex pen perpetually throughout their life span? 

I often see the term "reliable" used in reference to potty training. What specific characteristics and for what duration of time do those traits need to be present to constitute "reliable" to you in regards to supervision?

As always, I would really appreciate your perspective :smile2:


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

*leaving them alone*



smemft said:


> Friends of ours have two sweet, extremely well-behaved, older Maltese and they are left to freely roam the house, even when the owners are away, and they don't crate or use an ex pen. At this point, I couldn't fathom ever being comfortable with at any time in the future but perhaps that could change. Is being able to let a dog/s freely roam the house and/or yard a reasonable goal or do most Hav owners use a crate/ex pen perpetually throughout their life span?


I know a lot of people who leave their dog roam the house when they're not home, but to me it's not just a matter of the dog being reliable in terms of potty training or not chewing. I also feel like there are other potential issues that make crating or expens (or gated into a specific, small room/ space) when you're not with them the safest option... and while some of these other things are not extremely likely, just that they're possibilities are enough for me to want to know that my dog is safe in their crate or an expen when I'm not home especially since staying in an expen isn't really a hardship for a dog (they sleep most of the day anyway). For example - what if someone breaks into your house (three scenarios - the burglar leaves the door open, they hurt the dog because he's barking at them or attacking them or the police come and decide to shoot your dog because it's barking), or someone who has a key comes over (but isn't ask conscientious about making sure they can't get out)? What if there's a fire - it would be better if you or the fire fighters knew exactly where to find the dogs to grab them, less likely if you have to search the house for them (this happened to my sister - luckily with a happy ending, but she had a house fire, my other sister saw it and tried to get the dogs out but could only find 2 of them - might have been easier if they were in crates or a specific room or an expen... luckily the third had somehow gotten out of the house herself and they found her the next day hiding outside). What if they get completely freaked out by something when you're gone and bolt out the door when you open it? Then there are a ton of other more likely possibilities - what if they do decide to chew on something because they're bored, etc.

The other factor, in my experience with my last dog, is that for some dogs they feel safer and have less separation issues when they are in a smaller space (in her case it was her crate). When I tried to leave her out in the house/ yard when I was gone she was very anxious - ended up spending most of the time with her nose stuck to the bottom of the door waiting for me to get back, but in her crate she knew it was time to relax, she curled up and went to sleep and was very calm and relaxed when I got home.

Ok, so after writing all of that it does sound a little paranoid, but bottom line I think that staying in a crate or expen is the safest option and doesn't hurt them at all.


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## abi38 (Mar 23, 2017)

Mine are crated when I am not home. I don't trust them potty wise, and they are thieves and will find and steal anything edible around the house. They are good when I am home because I will take them out every couple hours.

My previous dogs were 2 retired racing greyhounds and a pom. The Pom was crated when I got him at 6 months old. He did eventually gotten completely reliable probably about 1-1.5 and can be left in house alone. However at that same time I also have a greyhound that has separation anxiety and she chewed on furniture. I tried crating her and she started destroying the crate from chewing. Eventually I kept both of them in a small room with 2 baby gates (greyhound can jump ) with no chewable furniture in it.

That greyhound didn't live long. I got another greyhound. This one didn't have anxiety so they were kept free in the house. That greyhound also didn't live long (both only lived 1 & 3 years in my care, one put down after progressive worse seizures that eventually fried her brain, and one to cancer at 7). By then my father's golden retriever lived with us and both the pom and golden were free roaming.

Until when the pom was old, he started going senile and no longer potty trained. For a long time we still let him roam by using a belly band on him, but eventually he'd poop everywhere also. So he spent the rest of his life in a corner of our room inside an xpen lined with plastic and pads. By then he was afraid of touches and didn't want people anymore.

So I have done both. I think containment offers more security. My old house was broken into while my dogs were gated in the small room, so the greyhound could have run away if she wasn't penned (My pom never wandered). I am comfortable doing either, basically whatever works for the situation, with preference towards confinement. My havs are doing great with crates, they are content and settled because they are very used to it. They just sleep their day away when I am not home. Even when I am working from home (like today) they are just sleeping at my feet.

P.S. I looked back at old pictures going down memory lane. I'll post them even they are not havs. Kimlo (B/W greyhound), Hershey (pom) and Dawn (fawn gh).


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> I know a lot of people who leave their dog roam the house when they're not home, but to me it's not just a matter of the dog being reliable in terms of potty training or not chewing. I also feel like there are other potential issues that make crating or expens (or gated into a specific, small room/ space) when you're not with them the safest option... and while some of these other things are not extremely likely, just that they're possibilities are enough for me to want to know that my dog is safe in their crate or an expen when I'm not home especially since staying in an expen isn't really a hardship for a dog (they sleep most of the day anyway). For example - what if someone breaks into your house (three scenarios - the burglar leaves the door open, they hurt the dog because he's barking at them or attacking them or the police come and decide to shoot your dog because it's barking), or someone who has a key comes over (but isn't ask conscientious about making sure they can't get out)? What if there's a fire - it would be better if you or the fire fighters knew exactly where to find the dogs to grab them, less likely if you have to search the house for them (this happened to my sister - luckily with a happy ending, but she had a house fire, my other sister saw it and tried to get the dogs out but could only find 2 of them - might have been easier if they were in crates or a specific room or an expen... luckily the third had somehow gotten out of the house herself and they found her the next day hiding outside). What if they get completely freaked out by something when you're gone and bolt out the door when you open it? Then there are a ton of other more likely possibilities - what if they do decide to chew on something because they're bored, etc.
> 
> The other factor, in my experience with my last dog, is that for some dogs they feel safer and have less separation issues when they are in a smaller space (in her case it was her crate). When I tried to leave her out in the house/ yard when I was gone she was very anxious - ended up spending most of the time with her nose stuck to the bottom of the door waiting for me to get back, but in her crate she knew it was time to relax, she curled up and went to sleep and was very calm and relaxed when I got home.
> 
> Ok, so after writing all of that it does sound a little paranoid, but bottom line I think that staying in a crate or expen is the safest option and doesn't hurt them at all.


I agree with all you have written COMPLETELY. I had an ex-pen up for Kodi until he was two, at which point, we put an addition on our house, and I started gating him in my office when I am out. The few times I left him home alone, undated, I found him pressed against the front door, obviously unhappy when I got home. If he's in my office, he sprawls out on my couch, happy as a clam.

Then the girls came along, with only 8 months between them, so the ex-pen was up for a LONG time again.  About other two years. Pixel earned rights to be gated in the office with Kodi fairly early, but Panda was in the ex-pen even when they were in the office for quite a long time, because she just pestered them so much.  Now they all just sack out in my office, whether I'm there with them, or when I'm out and about.

In our case, it's not about potty training or chewing either. It is about the safety of my dogs.

As far as "reliable" is concerned, I would never EVER trust ANY puppy of ANY breed to be "reliable" until they are over a year old. Even at a year, a lot couldn't be trusted not to get into trouble, no matter how well potty trained they are. I don't consider a puppy reliably POTTY TRAINED until they have gone MONTHS without an accident. I'd never trust a 5 month old puppy. They haven't lived long enough.  It is also not at all uncommon for older puppies/young dogs backslide in their potty training when winter comes or if it rains a lot. So I'd be skeptical of any dog under a year or so... maybe longer. Especially since, if you LET them make a mistake, you have un-done a lot of hard training work.


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## smemft (Feb 22, 2017)

I really appreciate the input; EXTREMELY helpful! Thank you : )


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

When we invested in Shama's Pupperton ex pen, we knew she would be spending a lot of time in it. During the school year, she's in it for nine hours a day while we are at our teaching jobs (our dog walker visits her midday).

We just returned from three nights and two days at my parents' house (where Shama had her ex pen as it travels with us). This morning, back at our house, she was barking at something outside, and we wanted her to calm down, so we put her in her pen. She collapsed onto the edge of her fluffy bed right next to the wall of her pen as if to say, "Finally, I can just relax!"

Below is a link to a thread I posted three months ago as well as a link to the Pupperton website.

http://www.havaneseforum.com/8-puppy-area/122313-baby-loves-her-ex-pen.html

The Best Wooden Dog Crates | Pupperton - Home

I originally thought Shama might ultimately be able to wander the entire house in our absence, but we think she likes her pen just fine, and keeping her there on occasion does have its advantages as described by Melissa, Abi, and Karen above. I like the idea of a fireman being able to easily locate her in an emergency, and I like the idea of her not pestering burglars. (The two Havanese that belonged to the parents of a colleague of mine were killed during a home invasion. I don't know the details.) It's also convenient to be able to plunk Shama in her pen when we're going in and out of the house to load the car for example (although sometimes the ex pen is the first thing we need to load . . .) and when someone comes to the door (yes, she would ideally have mastered the command to stay in one place when someone comes to the door, but we're not there yet . . .)

Shama's ex pen is here to stay. (It travels with us whenever we go somewhere overnight. It was cute yesterday when DH was packing it up at my parents'. When DH had removed two of the six panels, Shama went inside and lay down up against one of the remaining end panels. I should have taken a photo.)


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