# How much protein for Havs?



## Mojo's Mom (Jun 6, 2009)

I"d like to know if there is some consensus as to what percentage of protein is recommended for small breeds like the Havanese. I am trying to choose between Nature's Variety Instinct and Prairie foods, and I like the fact that Instinct is grain-free, but it is quite high in protein. I feed the raw medallions with the kibble.


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## Pixiesmom (Jul 31, 2008)

I would like to know that too!
The only kibble Pixie will eat is Wilderness, which is also grain free. She'll only eat the meat portion and pick out the fruit/veg pellets. That and the chicken, beef or turkey I'll cook for her once a day is ALL she will eat. She will not touch fruits/veg of any kind. 

I love Mojo's coloring-very pretty!


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## rdanielle (Sep 2, 2008)

They are carnivores so I wouldn't worry so much about to much protein rather too many carbs. JMO. Both my girls are grain free for a over a year now & ever since the switch they are thriving.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I have been feeding raw now for quite a while and mine are doing fine on 80 meat/10 organ/10 bone so I am sure it is fine. I know some dogs have an adjustment period with their stool to higher protein kibbles.


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## Beanie (Aug 30, 2009)

I feed Beanie Core Wellness puppy food right now; I'm sure it has a lot of protein and that's probably fine as she is putting a lot of muscle on and she is a very active and energetic pup. I'm thinking older dogs wouldn't need as much protein as they are less active...


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## Mojo's Mom (Jun 6, 2009)

My plan when I got Mojo was to stick with pretty traditional feeding combining a high quality kibble with a high quality canned, and I'd chosen Halo...but Mojo has never eaten regularly or with any enthusiasm. He's the worst eater I've ever seen, actually. I've realized he won't starve himself, obviously, and he's grown from puppy to adult size just fine, but it's depressing to see him so uninterested in food and throwing out bowl after bowl of perfectly good food. 

I finally gave up and bought some of the Nature's Variety after reading posts on this forum, and for the first time, he's excited about eating and finishes every bowl on a regular schedule. So I had already decided to stick with the raw, but I want to use kibble, too, and that was the part of the decision I wasn't sure about. For the moment, I'm using up the Halo kibble and starting to use a sample baggie of Prairie. He likes the Prairie kibble by itself, too.

I know that giant breeds have to keep low protein or they can develop growth problems, and I know older dogs often are put on very low protein diets, but I've never read anything specific to toy breeds in regard to protein. The whole protein subject seems to be controversial, and almost all vets continue to recommend protein content in the 26% range for all dogs, near as I can tell. This is why I want to hear from others experienced with Havanese on this forum. I appreciate everyone's thoughts.

Pixie's Mom, thanks for the compliment...Mojo appeared to be your typical black and tan at the time we chose him from the litter, and looked very much like his little brother who is still a typical black and tan. Mojo has turned out to have major silvering, I guess, and is coloring more like a sable all the time. He has no real black anywhere anymore, and the dark that is still there is more of a brown. Most of that will be gone if we ever cut his coat.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

here's an article on protein, also check out the home page of that site re. Recall for Natures' Variety. http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=protein


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## Pixiesmom (Jul 31, 2008)

I'm so glad this thread was started- I love getting questions answered!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I am not an expert by any means and have nothing to back this up scientifically other than my own experience with my boys. I think the amount of protein is not as important as the quality of protein and the other stuff that it is mixed with and how it is processed. Personally my boys did not do well at all on high protein kibbles which still have simple carbs in them usually in the form of potato. Also, so many of the kibbles have astronomical amounts of protein and fat sometimes as high as 38/28 ratio. So the dogs don't get to eat very much of it and are always hungry. I fought feeding raw for a very long time. But I admit my boys have never been healthier and more satisfied. I found it interesting to compare the stats of the Natures Variety Raw Chicken to a high protein kibble or even regular kibble. The percentage of protein of the raw is actually quite low in comparison. I took these from the NV web site for convenience but if I remember correctly they are similar to most grain free kibbles and balanced kibbles. Does anyone know why the Raw's percentage is actually lower? is it all that moisture?



> NATURES VARIETY RAW CHICKEN
> 
> Guaranteed Analysis
> 
> ...


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## Mojo's Mom (Jun 6, 2009)

Yes, but the raw has moisture in it which skews the numbers when comparing directly to kibble.

I knew about the recall on Nature's Variety, thank you for reminding everyone, though. I'm currently using the Bison. 

Thank you, Dave, for the article that is a very nice summary of the subject. It's never made sense to me that grain would be a large part of a canine diet, and I'm leaning toward using the Instinct, assuming Mr. Fussy likes it. This dog is the least interested in food of any dog I've seen, short of my mutt at age 14 and 15, but I understood that.

One food Mojo really LOVES is the Natural Balance rolls, but I don't like them for anything other than training because of the sugar and smoke flavoring. Besides, I need to keep something in reserve to be extra special for training.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

According to the link Dave posted, *
There is no scientific proof that high protein diets cause dogs to get "hyper" or "aggressive". No biochemical or nutritional factors support this myth. There is also no conclusive evidence so far that protein intake actually contributes to the development of kidney dysfunction in healthy animals.* I can't say this enough at the store I work at because people are still concerned their cutie pie poodles will turn into monsters! lol

Mojo'smom, you are absolutely right about having to consider the amount of moisture in a food to understand that the % of protein differs than what it says on the pkg. and/or can. In fact, raw medallions from NV are higher in protein than Instinct so you'll have no issues with that as far as protein is concerned.

*To calculate amount of protein in a wet food, here is the formula*: Let's say protein in a wet food is 10%, and moisture is 75%. 100% minus 75% is 25. Then divide the 10 (protein) by 25 (100 - 75) and you get .40 ... which means that there actually is 40% of protein in that wet food.

Here it is at: www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/ResourcesforYou/UCM047113

_*"when comparing the guaranteed analyses between dry and canned products, one will note that the levels of crude protein and most other nutrients are much lower for the canned product. This can be explained by looking at the relative moisture contents. Canned foods typically contain 75-78% moisture, whereas dry foods contain only 10-12% water. To make meaningful comparisons of nutrient levels between a canned and dry product, they should be expressed on the same moisture basis.

The most accurate means of doing this is to convert the guarantees for both products to a dry matter basis. The percentage of dry matter of the product is equal to 100% minus the percentage of moisture guaranteed on the label. A dry food is approximately 88-90% dry matter, while a canned food is only about 22-25% dry matter. To convert a nutrient guarantee to a dry matter basis, the percent guarantee should be divided by the percentage of the dry matter, then multiplied by 100.

For example, a canned food guarantees 8% crude protein and 75% moisture (or 25% dry matter), while a dry food contains 27% crude protein and 10% moisture (or 90% dry matter). Which has more protein, the dry or canned? Calculating the dry matter protein of both, the canned contains 32% crude protein on a dry matter basis (8/25 X 100 = 32), while the dry has only 30% on a dry matter basis (27/90 X 100 = 30). Thus, although it looks like the dry has a lot more protein, when the water is counted out, the canned actually has a little more. An easier way is to remember that the amount of dry matter in the dry food is about four times the amount in a canned product. To compare guarantees between a dry and canned food, multiply the guarantees for the canned food times four first.

It is especially important to look at the moisture guarantee for canned foods, even when comparing a canned food with another canned. Under AAFCO regulations, the maximum percentage moisture content for a pet food is 78%, except for products labeled as a "stew," "in sauce," "in gravy," or similar terms. The extra water gives the product the qualities needed to have the appropriate texture and fluidity. Some of these exempted products have been found to contain as much as 87.5% moisture. This doesn't sound like much difference until the dry matter contents are compared. For example, a product with a guarantee of 87.5% moisture contains 12.5% dry matter, only half as much as a product with a 75% moisture guarantee (25% dry matter)."
*_


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## Mojo's Mom (Jun 6, 2009)

Great post, thanks for taking the time to write all that down.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Thanks, but I did a copy/paste so it was easy! lol


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Marj, thanks for explaining that. I have always wondered. So do you then do the same math for the fat content?


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Thanks for posting this info Marj. I've been trying to transition my guys off the Natural Balance roll. I went back to Primal raw for the boys. Bella won't touch it. They don't seem more hyper from it and they are losing weight. I still trying to figure out just how much to feed of the raw, but I'm getting close. I like how lean and fit they are looking on the raw.
When I was feeding the Evo, and Orijens they blew up like balloons. I was only feeding 2/3 of a cup. TRying to manage weight and find something they like has been challenging!


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Thanks for posting this info Marj. I've been trying to transition my guys off the Natural Balance roll. I went back to Primal raw for the boys. Bella won't touch it. They don't seem more hyper from it and they are losing weight. I still trying to figure out just how much to feed of the raw, but I'm getting close. I like how lean and fit they are looking on the raw.
When I was feeding the Evo, and Orijens they blew up like balloons. I was only feeding 2/3 of a cup. TRying to manage weight and find something they like has been challenging!


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

*"Missy, Jasper & Cash

Looking to add a Havanese to your family? check out this thread first" *

Great idea, to add this to your signature, Missy! :whoo: There are probably a few threads we could add to our sig.

No, you don't do this calculation for fat content, just for the protein since that is where the water/moisture is.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Orijen has a white paper,see pages 26 and 27, http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/ORIJEN_White_paper.pdf. YOu can also read this, http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/Myths_of_High_Protein.pdf.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Marj, I can't take any credit for the siggy. I stole the idea from Amanda!!!!


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## tsturbo (Jul 28, 2009)

Chandler is thriving on Orijen, it was a little rich for him as a young pup as we transitioned him from other brands, he is now on the adult version and gets 3/4 of a cup 2x per day, perfect weight, great coat, eyes and plenty of energy. He loves it and I feel it is worth the extra $$. Very impressed with Orijen dog food kibble.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

My guys kinda liked the Orijens, but blew up on it!


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## Miss Paige (Apr 4, 2008)

Neither Miss Paige or Roman like the Orijen-I have a whole bag that I am donating to the local shelter they are going back on raw-NV Beef. I have to watch what Ms Frannie eats-and really watch the protein-she has to have more carbs & vegs than protein because of her heart. Then we have to watch what carbs & vegs she gets because of the oxalate stones. I am running a short order cook restaurant here and it's sure not fun. And they are still eating better than me-LOL.

Pat (humom to)
Miss Paige
Mr Roman
Ms Frannie


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