# I don't know what to call this



## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Just take me for an old woman that doesn't fit in anymore with the world today. I have a comment to make about answering posts from newbies with new puppies that ask our for help or just answers to questions that may offend our sensibilities. I find that many of us are quick to critisize or put them down because they have made a mistake by buying a petstore dog or halfbreed mutt out of ignorance. I have seen this happen several times over the past year and I think that their question should be answered in a civil manner and they should never be lectured about what a mistake they have made. The mistake has been made by that person asking the question. They don't need to be lectured about how bad they have messed up. If someone has a problem with the person's question, they should start a new thread about that particular thing and not lecture the poor person who didn't know any better. Whether they are asking about breeding their little half-breed dog or about their petstore dog that they fell in love with and bought or whatever. That particular person came to this forum for an answer and not to be berated for being so stupid to buy a petstore dog or innocently wanting to breed their dog with another halfbreed dog or some designer dog--you get the drift. Whatever one may think, most of the population are of average intelligence and work off of impulse or emotion and do not think of all the whynots or what ifs. Some people can deal with the lectures and some just do not answer ever again.

I am probably phrasing this badly, but I have felt bad for a few innocents that have come on the forum with real questions and then been berated by some of us because they asked a very stupid question--the one that wanted to breed her dog comes to mind and the petstore puppy is another very recent one. Personally, I don't see anything more wrong with a petstore puppy or a rescue. Both types of puppies have been rescued.

Censor me if you want to; but I do think that we have been to hard on newbies.

Lucile


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## sprorchid (Mar 30, 2010)

Wow Lucile,
what a thoughtful and insightful post. I appreciate your honesty and care. I think the mark of a good forum is not only its actual value in real, truthful content, but stating such in a civil, thoughtful way.
It's hard when you read the typed word, b/c you can read into it, perhaps what the writer did not intend.
I think it's hard when it comes to our pets, which are really fur family members, it's close to our hearts, and I would say that the folks on this forum, overall embody that. They aren't just pets, that we keep only in the backyard. I think it's great that the forum members here are passionate about the Havanese breed. 
I'm new to this forum, and Lucile I hafta say, I've thought about leaving, just reading the tone of some of posts, like the one you allude to. No one likes getting flame, intentionally or unintentionally. We all have drama in our lives already, I personally don't need forum drama on top of it all. My personal motto is to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

I would like to say, I do really appreciate this forum. It is truly my hav savior of info. and entertainment. 

Nothing but love you all,
Jackie, owned by Ollie


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## shimpli (Mar 24, 2010)

So true, Lucile. That is the only thing needed to make this forum perfect. There is so much information and support in here and it is really appreciated. We just need more kindness when dealing with special topics that are important to many of us. It is not what we say but HOW we say it...


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Luciledodd said:


> , I don't see anything more wrong with a petstore puppy or a rescue. Both types of puppies have been rescued.
> 
> Lucile


I agree with you *except for the statement above*. When anyone buys from a pet store they are putting money in the pockets of the puppy mills owners and operators. If the pet stores had no dog sales they would stop ordering puppies and many of the puppy mills would be out of business. A pet store sale encourages puppy mills to breed more dogs. You may save or rescue one by buying from a pet store but you are supporting the puppy mill industry in the inhumane treatment of the dams and sires to live a life of torment and misery and the production of more puppies.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Hi Lucille,

I agree that it's ALWAYS important to treat people respectfully, here or anywhere else. It's common courtesy, and makes this a more pleasant place for everyone.

That said, I disagree with the idea that when someone comes here with questions specifically about concerns about their puppy mill or BYB puppy (whether it be that the dog in question clearly isn't a purebred, or that it is short haired when it was supposed to be a "normal" Hav or has health problems... you name it...) that people should stand by and say nothing about the problem with purchasing puppy mill/pet store/BYB pups. This problem is rampant, and to say nothing is to tacitly accept the practice.

You wrote: "most of the population are of average intelligence and work off of impulse or emotion and do not think of all the whynots or what ifs." People of average intelligence should be able to USE that average intelligence. (most of us here have "average intelligence; that's why it's called average:wink Average intelligence is NO excuse for not doing your homework and making a major life decision, both for yourself and the dog, based simply on impulse and emotion. 

I've never heard anyone suggest that someone doesn't belong here because they have a puppy mill or part bred Hav. I've seen the opposite. I've seen people who have rescued dogs that "look like they might be part Hav" become valued, contributing members of the group. Likewise, many people who have come here after purchasing puppy mill dogs learn their lesson. They stay and learn, and often help educate others who come after them.

If a person wants to help rescue puppy mill Havs, they should do it by adopting one. There are plenty available. Purchasing one at a pet store or over the internet isn't "rescuing", it is perpetuating the abuse of the parent dogs.

As far as those people who even suggest breeding unregistered (let alone part bred) puppies, I'm sorry, in my book those posts cannot be dealt with lightly. People who even suggest such an idea need to be told in no uncertain terms that this is NOT OK. Anything less would be irresponsible.

We owe it to all the people who come here months before they purchase a puppy looking for good information on how to find and purchase a good quality dog to be a good source of that information. I was one of those people. I first started reading the forum almost 6 months before I purchased Kodi. I had been on many other internet sites looking for information too. I knew not to get a dog from the puppy mill outlet down the street, but not how to go about finding one. Many of the to-be-avoided places on the internet, like Puppy Finder, have all these cute ads of adorable pups set against velvet backgrounds. How cute!:redface: What I learned on this forum about such sites made my blood run cold when I thought of the mistake I could have made. But with my average intelligence I kept reading because it was important to me NOT to make an emotional, impulse decision, but to end up with a partner who, hopefully, will be with me for many years. With the help of this forum, I found a good breeder and an awesome puppy.

As I said in the beginning, I agree with you completely that it is important to always treat people respectfully, but especially on a public forum like this. I do NOT, however, agree that wrong-minded decisions shouldn't be pointed out to the people who made them at the time they post. In the recent posts, while I've seen people pointing out all the problems with pet store puppies and puppy mills, I've also seen at least as many (sometimes the same) people also saying, "What's done is done, your pup is adorable. He's not a Hav, but enjoy him for who he is!" That seems pretty fair to me.


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## Gizmo'sMom (Jul 9, 2010)

Before I got Gizmo (yes she is from a pet store) I started doing research (mostly on the financial costs behind having a dog/puppy, and how to train and care for them). I never thought I could have a dog because I have bad allergies/asthma and my friend mentioned to me that there are breeds that are hypoallergenic. I went online and found a listing and fell in love with the havanese. I went down to the pet store and they had them there and they put me in the room with them and I was fine! for the first time ever I could be in a confined space with a dog and not have any outbreak. I didn't see anything about puppy mills while doing this and honestly have never heard of one. All of our past family dogs when I was really young before allergies were either found on the side of the road or took over after family members counldn't take care of them so we never went through ways to get one. The found ones usually had some issues but my mom was stay at home and so it was never an issue. All of the people I knew who adopted had a lot of issues (health and behavior wise) and I was worried I wouldn't be able to give a special needs dog the attention it would need (it being my first one) and I always thought that those dogs were just coming from people who didn't take care or train there pets or counldn't afford them and gave them up (not that thats an okay thing). My boss recommended not adopting and going through a breeder since a lot of times those dogs require more special care and have health issues (now I know why), and she thought for my first dog I should be careful about that. I contacted a lot of havanese breeders and honestly only actually got two responses, one said basically said no since I work during the day (even though I have someone watch her several days a week) and never had a dog before, and they were concerned about the allergy issue. They were rude when they responded and said it was unthinkable. (Even with having a full time job and first time dog, I feel Gizmo is really well taken care of, and a happy healthy puppy). I tried to ask questions to other breeders but never got any responses. I don't know if they were BYB or what but never heard back. I didn't find this forum until after getting Gizmo. The only other said yes and started to answer things but then my boss said not to go to them since they didn't mention health testing. At this point I was frustrated. 

The only place that was actually answering my questions and concerns at that point was the pet store I got her from. Not knowing about puppy mills and not getting any kind of helpful responses to my questions and concerns I decided to get her there. I am not trying to say it is the breeders fault and yes I could probably have done more research, but without knowing about puppy mills you don't know to reserach them. I saw online it said that a healthy havanese from a "reputable breeder" usually cost between $1,200 and $2,000 and if you shouldn't be paying less then that. Since she was $1,850 and the pet store said ow yes she is from a great breeder I thought I was doing the right thing. 

After finding out about puppy mills I don't think the answer is to just not buy from pet stores (not trying to say you should support them), all that will happen is some will go under and where are all those puppies going to go. Some will stay open and it will probably make conditions worse for the dogs that are at the mills (kind of like when a company does poorly and they start taking away benefits). I think the answer is to fight for tougher breeder laws (like requiring the health tests) and have more people checking these mills and where these pet stores are getting there dogs. That will make it harder for them to make money and raise prices and therefore people wouldn't be running to lowcost pet stores anymore, but to the reputable breeders who are currently doing the right thing, which would put both out of business. I could be completely wrong and please don't think I support puppy mills or agree with what they do. I just don't like when people get bad mouthed either because they didn't know something that honestly is not out there as much as you might think. 

After getting her I found out about the mills through the bad mouthing which made me nervous about joining this kind of forum and about telling the truth of where she if from. So far I have not gotten bad mouthed here but I have seen some of the posts you mention.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Lucille, I think it is a good reminder for all of us. I know I sometimes feel as long as I say welcome, and good luck, or something nice at the beginning and the end that allows me to then say what ever I want. (even make a bad inside joke.)

Perhaps we should all check ourselves a bit when we get emotional and think about how we would feel about the responses if we decided to post _that we switched to ALPO!_ just for example


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

Lucille, I agree with you. If my first post received the response that some of the newbies have gotten I never would have returned to this website.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

I know this topic makes lot of people really upset and what not. Even for me, knowing what I know now.. But I have to admit, before getting Beamer and joinging this forum, I knew nothing about puppy mills and all that stuff. The only thing that saved me from that is I joined the forum a few months prior to buying Beamer from a great breeder.

Also, I don't think these behaviours will ever stop. People have been buying pups from pet stores forever and Im sure will continue to do so. Just because its not 'the right thing to do' does not mean it will go away. it's just a fact of life! People do all sorts of other much 'crazier' things in life that could have a direct negative impact (like dying) on the individual.. drinking and driving.. having unprotected sex with strangers, not wearing a helmet when riding a motorcycle (or even ridring a motorcycle..lol). All of these things could lead to death. Buying a pet store pup will not have any direct negative impact on anyone! (like seriously, the USA and even Canada have ALOT of bigger issues oging on than puppy sales) Just trying to put thngs into persspective here is all...

Ryan


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Thank you Lucile for a well thought out post. I agree with nearly everything you said. I don't agree that buying a pet store dog or cat is a good thing but I fully understand the emotions behind it. Truth be told, six years ago I came thisclose to buying one myself while visiting my sister in Indiana. We went into a pet store to pick up some treats for me to take home to puppy McKenna and in the back was the most adorable Bichon boy I had ever seen. I carried him around the store for half an hour, knowing FULL WELL that no good breeder sells their dogs in a pet store. I even named him. The only reason I didn't take him home was because of all the stuff I would have had to buy to take him home on the plane. If that makes me an enabler for puppy millers, so be it. At the time, my thought was only for THAT puppy. He was already out of the mill. My buying or not buying him didn't make an iota of difference to the original miller. He had his money. Now, I just make it a point not to go into any pet store that sells dogs or cats.
I felt very bad for the original poster of the recent thread. Here is someone who has a new puppy, whom they adore, who asks questions, admits that they knew that a pet store was not the best place to buy a dog but the heart overruled the head. I ask, has that not happened to most of us at one tiime or another? Haven't most of us gone ahead and done something that we knew wasn't the best choice? In my 50 years on this earth, I know I have! 
No one likes to be lectured to. The fact is, if she hadn't bought that puppy, someone else would have. The best way to stop puppy mills is to stop them at the source. Shoot the puppy miller, not the person who simply wants to give a puppy a better life.
Education is the key to solving the puppy mill problem and hitting a puppy buyer over the head with a two by four is not the best form of education. Save the two by four for the miller, or the broker, or store owner.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Let me say I do not support puppy mills. The main point is that the deed is done, be nice, then start a thread to discuss what was wrong with the original question so everyone can get our points in without personally attacking someone who is ignorant of the facts--breeding her dogs or what kind of dog did she buy to why you can not feed a certain food, etc. I have read things that made me say to myself, "that person is to stupid to own a dog". There is a no-kill shelter behind my property. It is overrun with dogs and cats of all breeds. These animals live in cages with very little exercise for the rest of their lives. That is not right either but I can't do anything about it nor can I stop petstores from buying from commercial breeders.

I grew up in the Norman Rockwell world of petstores and "how much is that doggy in the window" and the neighbors dog having puppies and them being given away to neighborhood children. That mindset is still around for a great deal of the population, probably a majority.

As to the average person, if you see the man on the street interviews done by late night hosts, you real realize that a lot of the average--no intelligent--population don't know who our politicians are, past presidents, where some states are, etc. They surely can't know that puppy mills exist either. Education is the key, lets keep up the good work.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Hi Chrissy,

You are certainly not the only one who has tried to do the right thing and fallen into the pet store trap, for many of the reasons you mentioned. I filled out numerous, extensive "applications" to breeders never to hear a word from them. I understand that people are busy, but that's not fair. If breeders have a presence on the web, and especially if they require you to jump through hoops just to talk to you, they owe you at least a polite, "Sorry, we don't have any puppies available right now". Although I doubt that the breeders on this forum do this, there are a lot of Hav breeders with a lot to answer for in this regard.

I also understand that people don't necessarily know about puppy mills until they come here, especially if they've never been involved in the dog world. (like you and Gizmo, Kodi is my first dog because of severe dog allergies... we never even had any dogs when I was growing up, so this was a completely new world to me) But aren't you glad that you do know now? It doesn't make you love Gizmo any less, and it shouldn't!!! But I think if we care about animals, we should care about them in a general sense as well as our own personal pets.

I also agree with you that some breeders are overly strict with their rule about selling dogs to working people. They really need to investigate more thoroughly, and see how the person plans to manage the dog's time. I work from of my house, so it wasn't an issue for me... I'm lucky enough to be able to work with Kodi lying on my feet. (if he doesn't distract me!!!) But I know lots of people who work full time out of the house and arrange happy, fulfilling lives for their dogs. I also know people who are home all day and STILL don't fulfill their dog's need for exercise and companionship.



Gizmo'sMom said:


> After finding out about puppy mills I don't think the answer is to just not buy from pet stores (not trying to say you should support them), all that will happen is some will go under and where are all those puppies going to go. Some will stay open and it will probably make conditions worse for the dogs that are at the mills (kind of like when a company does poorly and they start taking away benefits). I think the answer is to fight for tougher breeder laws (like requiring the health tests) and have more people checking these mills and where these pet stores are getting there dogs. That will make it harder for them to make money and raise prices and therefore people wouldn't be running to lowcost pet stores anymore, but to the reputable breeders who are currently doing the right thing, which would put both out of business. I could be completely wrong and please don't think I support puppy mills or agree with what they do. I just don't like when people get bad mouthed either because they didn't know something that honestly is not out there as much as you might think.


First of all, conditions could hardly get worse for the breeder dogs. If you've seen the conditions they live under, and the condition they are in when they are taken out of service, I honestly think they'd be better off dead. While it would be lovely to think that tougher laws will fix this problem, it's unlikely. First of all, these places are inspected, sited and sometimes even fined or threatened with closure, and they still persist, simply because there are not enough inspectors to enforce the current laws. In the current economic climate, there is no way that states are going to spend more of their budget on enforcing something that is of minor importance to the majority of the public. And if you can't get puppy mills even to provide good basic living conditions, realistically, what do you think the chances are that you will be able to get them to do expensive health testing?

Unfortunately, I don't think the government is going to help us here (or even should... many of the laws that are written with good intentions end up having horrific consequences for the small, consciencious breeders, raising healthy, well socialized puppies in their living rooms that we want to support. We need to get the word out to other potential puppy buyers and vote with our feet. I know you love Gizmo, and she looks like a complete darling. And now that you are more knowledgeable, you are in a position to help OTHER people avoid the same trap you fell into. You paid a premium price that could have easily gotten you a good puppy from a good breeder.



Gizmo'sMom said:


> After getting her I found out about the mills through the bad mouthing which made me nervous about joining this kind of forum and about telling the truth of where she if from. So far I have not gotten bad mouthed here but I have seen some of the posts you mention.


I'm sorry if some people's posts sound like "bad mouthing". Some people do come across as very blunt. But they are just very concerned about a breed they care very much about. Gizmo is adorable, and I doubt that there is a single person on the forum who doesn't wish you the best with her!!!


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

I am thinking about fostering with the shih tzu rescue in Memphis, maybe this winter when things are a lot slower for hubby and me. But the applications for adoption or fostering or from breeders can sure put one off. If we passed a law that said ALL persons of reproducing age had to fill out one of those applications before they were allowed to have children, there certainly would be fewer children born in the US. If a breeder won't sell to a working person, how can they then be allowed to sell puppies as that surely is a job also. I had planned to buy a Scottie before I got Rosie. After being turned down by two breeders because I had a swimming pool and an outside dog at that time, it really put me off. It was really none of their business about my finances either. Course being the person I am, I told them so. HA. I told one of them that since I had managed to rear 4 children and 10 grandchildred without letting one drown or not having enough money to properly care for them, that I just didn't want their dog. One of the breeders actually had a kennel and wouldn't let the dogs go until they were 4 months old. I asked how living in a kennel for 4 months instead of with a loving family was better for their dog. Course I didn't get an answer. And the no-kill shelter I referred to wouldn't let me have one of the hundred plus cats that live in cages because I wouldn't swear to never letting it outside. How sensible is that? Josie Wales my outlaw kitty came from the vet after the litter was brought there to be gotten rid of. Now I admit that I go outside with Josie still and just can't leave her outthere by herself cause I don't want her to climb the fence and be a spot on the highway. She will probably always be a house kitty, but that is my choice because I am getting soft in my old age and besides Rosie would be devastated to lose her partner in crime.


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

*Agree with Lucille*

I thought I knew about the evils of puppy mills. And then I fostered a mill breeder who was rescued by HRI. I can't tell you how it broke my heart to nurture and care for that 2 year-old dog. That's when I got the "true picture" of pet stores. Until then, I only thought of the fact that the puppies wouldn't be healthy, nor socialized. I hadn't fully realized the conditions under which the parent dogs would be living. Now I am so aware and tell eveyone my opinion on the subject.

That being said, I agree with Lucille regarding the way people are sometimes treated on here, when they mention the ways they obtained their puppies, i.e. that are not from reputable breeders. I have sometimes sent PMs to some of these same people, to be encouraging to them about their dog and to suggest that they stay on the forum.

Not everyone has the money, nor the information to be able to purchase a dog from a reputable breeder. Some people operate on a more emotional level when acquiring a pet. When they come here, after they have obtained the dog, couldn't everyone be more courteous and less judgemental?


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Perhaps when we see these posts-- we can so what Marj does often, answer the question at hand, and then post a link to a thread that already exists if they are interested in learning about it. That way the persons thread stays courteous and we can get it off our chest in the thread about what ever, in recent cases, pet store puppies. I am going to try and do that from now on.


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## Gizmo'sMom (Jul 9, 2010)

krandall said:


> Although I doubt that the breeders on this forum do this, there are a lot of Hav breeders with a lot to answer for in this regard.
> !!!


I'm sure they weren't on here, and for all I know they were BYB's and because I mentioned health testing in some of the questions maybe that is why they never responded. It's really hard to get an accurate answer on a "reputable breeder" unless you know someone that has used one unfortunately or a site like this which I wish I found first. I wish there was an easy listing to find of good breeders because it seems like the ones that come up the easiest are all BYB's who now I know easier how to spot.



krandall said:


> I also agree with you that some breeders are overly strict with their rule about selling dogs to working people.


This was one of those most fustrating things. I mean I understand puppies don't like to be left alone, but a few days a week here and there as long as the rest of the time they are kept busy they are fine. I care for her very much and spend all the time I am home with her and make sure she has all she needs. I know people who are home all the time and leave there poor dog locked outside all day...feel sorry for them.



krandall said:


> While it would be lovely to think that tougher laws will fix this problem, it's unlikely.


It would of course take a lot of time, but as others said there are almost no inspectors and enforcers. If there were things would change. It might not be perfect, but unfortuneetly it probably never will be. I just meant like someone else said going after the puppy mills / bybs themselves would be the best thing because you close one store down another will open down the block and there will always be people who don't know or believe they are doing the correct thing.



krandall said:


> We need to get the word out to other potential puppy buyers and vote with our feet.


I try to do that  Someone at my job mentioned how much they liked Gizmo and they would like a dog/puppy like her and I pointed her at the HRI site and am giving her name to my Petco trainer who helps find homes for dogs.



krandall said:


> I'm sorry if some people's posts sound like "bad mouthing". Some people do come across as very blunt.


As I said it hasn't happened to me here, it was outside of here. Mostly face to face. It just hurts when people do that because what is done is done and there is no real way to fix it now and atleast in my case and I am sure in others, people don't realize what they did and they may have tried to do it correctly.


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## hedygs (May 23, 2007)

Your post is very thoughtful Lucille and I'm glad you wrote it. I too knew nothing of BYB or puppy millers before we bought our Hav. I would have been a fervent Googler for Havanese if my sister hadn't purchased her Hav from a reputable breeder in Florida. She gave me her name and eventually we found Domino.

Honestly my neighbors, both bright, well-respected lawyers, recently purchased what I believe is a BYB Hav based on what they told me about her. To boot, the puppy was on PuppyFind (I think) and he cost $800.00 so I believe my assumption is correct. They were researching breeds, decided on a Havanese, went on the internet and the next day had a puppy. Yikes! He is adorable but honestly he doesn't have the most delightful temperment and I sure hope they take him for obedience classes or he'll be a biter for sure. So sad.

My point is so many of us, myself included, know/knew nothing about puppy millers and BYBers. I have learned a great deal on this forum but I surely am I glad that I didn't come here to gush about my new puppy that I bought at the local petstore because honestly I'd be crushed if I received some of the responses others have.

I know you all mean well but try to be kind even when you disagree to the bottom of your soul.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I guess I am on the opposite side of thought. If you don't tell someone who comes and posts that they purchased a dog from a pet store or BYB, how will they ever learn? And with MHS, they mind end up getting a dog from another BYB or petstore a few weeks later!

I think you can be respectful about it and I do think most people on this forum are very respectful while being passionate about the breed (it is a balance). We have a lot of forum members who have purchased one dog from a BYB and then gotten a dog from a good breeder after being educated about it.

I think if you save one family a heartache then your post was worth it. Let alone consider this a public forum that anyone can read even if they don't have an account. Maybe they learn about petland or byb or health testing just reading a single post.


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## LilyMyLove (Jul 11, 2009)

*Love, Peace, and Havanese*

Lily and I were at the dog park yesterday afternoon, and she was playing with a new puppy that I hadn't seen before. I started chatting with her owner and she told me he was a Havanese, I told her that Lily was too. I was surprised that he didn't have that springy, happy, responsive Hav personality, but thought maybe he was just hot or hungry. As we talked, I learned that she goes to good college outside of Boston, and that she wanted a Hav for awhile, but that the puppy ended up being an impulse purchase from a petstore while on vacation in a nearby state with her boyfriend. Lily had a nice time playing with him and I told her about some different puppy classes in the area-she seemed very new to the whole dog thing. I didn't feel the need to lecture her as to the probable origin of her new family purchase.

The difference between that situation and the most recent post the OP is referring to?

1) Our conversation was not published, accessible by an unlimited number of people for all of time (as long as the internet exists, anyway)-many of whom may access it when looking for info on finding their own puppy

2) While an intelligent girl, she seemed to have a blind spot when it came to this issue, and did not "know any better"- she just turned 20 years old also

While I appreciate the place you are coming from Lucille, I don't feel it is applicable to the most recent thread you are referring to, because, as I pointed out in my post on that thread: The OP stated that she knew better-in my post I asked for clarification on this, and I see today that she has supplied that. From the posts, to me it seems like people didn't start getting frustrated until that person said to "Lighten UP" I feel I was respectful, but also true to my own feelings about the situation. Freedom of speech is very important. If someone ever disagrees with something I post, I invite them to disagree with me, a dialogue about something is what promotes understanding and affects change.

There have been other people recently who have posted about their dog being from a pet shop, and if you look at my commenting history, I haven't had anything adversarial to share with them, because they did not knowingly do so, and stated in their posts that they have since found out its an inhumane way to go about things. Most times in life, its all about context.

Some of you have posted that sometimes you think about leaving the forum because of these strongly worded comments. I understand that. I have had to take a month or two off from the forum after becoming extremely frustrated at getting involved in the story of a dog who's health problems could have been prevented if the person had spent more time doing a bit of research, then went out and made the exact same mistake by purchasing another puppy from a very questionable breeder.

I think its important to remember that we all come from the same place, we are all on this forum because of the indelible love we have for these little animals who have stolen our hearts. People react different ways to that. It was hard for me to read the thread and read each post where people said "Doesn't matter that he's from the pet shop/puppy mill, what a cute puppy! IWAP!" But I wouldn't want to censor anyone else's post because I respect all of your opinions and your right to them.

Its my opinion that the logic of "dont blame the person who buys the puppy, they are saving it!" is akin to such logic as "don't blame the john for sex trafficking and exploiting women and children, blame the pimp".

I agree with your idea Lucille, to start a new thread and Missy, to put a link to it in your post-I think its a good way to not side track the OP too much and still discuss things that people may feel are important. But if people want to address things that the OP has written specifically or ask questions and get clarification thats well within their rights. We are all adults here and should conduct ourselves as such, but blindly agreeing with people just for the sake of agreeing, being well liked and keeping the peace is inauthentic and counter productive.

Thank you all for sharing your feelings on this.


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## Ana's Mojito (Sep 24, 2007)

SMARTY said:


> I agree with you *except for the statement above*. When anyone buys from a pet store they are putting money in the pockets of the puppy mills owners and operators. If the pet stores had no dog sales they would stop ordering puppies and many of the puppy mills would be out of business. A pet store sale encourages puppy mills to breed more dogs. You may save or rescue one by buying from a pet store but you are supporting the puppy mill industry in the inhumane treatment of the dams and sires to live a life of torment and misery and the production of more puppies.


I am not that new but a lot of people have been here for much longer. I agree with Lucille, although I have never read any of those responses. One of the reasons for the forum, I believe, should be to educate and inform people and we should share our experiences and educate the newbies like you say. If someome bought a petsotre puppy, it's not like they will return it. I am 100% against puppy mills, and think they should all be closed down and petstores banned from selling pets, but I am sure people don't mean harm when getting a petstore puppy, it's because they don't know what goes behind. Good reminder.


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## Pixiesmom (Jul 31, 2008)

I still wonder how the outcome was with Kris and the two Coco's (Ms. and Mr.)....


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## LilyMyLove (Jul 11, 2009)

Pixiesmom said:


> I still wonder how the outcome was with Kris and the two Coco's (Ms. and Mr.)....


I do too, but then I think I probably don't want to know...


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## LilyMyLove (Jul 11, 2009)

Beamer said:


> Also, I don't think these behaviours will ever stop. People have been buying pups from pet stores forever and Im sure will continue to do so. Just because its not 'the right thing to do' does not mean it will go away. it's just a fact of life! People do all sorts of other much 'crazier' things in life that could have a direct negative impact (like dying) on the individual.. drinking and driving.. having unprotected sex with strangers, not wearing a helmet when riding a motorcycle (or even ridring a motorcycle..lol). All of these things could lead to death. *Buying a pet store pup will not have any direct negative impact on anyone! (like seriously, the USA and even Canada have ALOT of bigger issues oging on than puppy sales)* Just trying to put thngs into persspective here is all...
> 
> Ryan


Ryan,

I am confused get how an individual choosing to have risky behavior like unprotected sex or not wearing helmets and relates to these dogs spending their lives in cages, breeding against their will. Can you clarify? To a lot of people it is a big issue.


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## leena365 (Sep 17, 2009)

I also agree with Lucille and I am thankful there is a sight like this to come to with your questions.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

I responded to the post I think is being discussed and perhaps y'all think I was one of the ones who didn't respond kindly or respectfully.

Being kind to someone doesn't always mean being nice. This is a public forum, people can post their opinions especially when someone starts the post the way that one was begun. She KNEW what she had done was wrong BEFORE she did it. Did she hope members here would tell her what she did was ok? I'm not going to do that.

This forum is a wonderful place where I've learned so much! With that said, I want people to be honest with me and tell me the truth if I ask a question or post a comment. I can't help but wonder if those of you who think anyone, me included, was too harsh in reply, have ever seen a mill dog when they come into rescue? Have you read "Saving Gracie"? Have you seen the shows or the videos depicting puppy mills and the horrors that go on there every day? 

Education is key, it's the only thing that will stop the mills because the government won't. I'll tell anyone I can.


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## Gizmo'sMom (Jul 9, 2010)

I agree that you should tell the person about puppy mills / bybs but carefully is all. When I was first told they basically said it was directly my fault these dogs are suffering (wasn't here for me) and I had no idea what they were talking about. It got me upset and angry and I walked away not learning anything. Later U had an allergy issue I thought to Giz and I freaked. I called that breeder who was responding but didn't have the health things it seemed and he asked where I got her. He nicely explained the puppy mill pet store issue without blaming me. I then looked up puppy mills and learned what they were. I'm just trying to say its in the way its said. Most people here are great at it but several posts I read made me rake a step back.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

Again I'll say, SHE STATED RIGHT AT THE START OF HER POST THAT SHE KNEW IT WASN'T THE RIGHT THING TO DO.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Ann I couldn't tell you any person on the forum who was to harsh. I just went back and looked at the OP. Her basicc question "is my dog a havanese" is really all she wanted to know. Most of the answers at first told her that they didn't think so and suggested the silky terrier or yorkie mix. I don't think anything beyond answering her question and commenting that the puppy was precious no matter the breed and advising her that she should have recourse with the petstore for mislabeling the puppy anything else should have been said to this person. For all those that wanted to lecture this person on puppy mills and horror stories, they should have started another thread and let everyone get all that said like we are doing now. 

This thread was started to comment on our public manners and how to address someones questions, yet the puppy mill thing has come up again and again. I think that as forum members we can argue among ourselves if we want to; but try to stay on topic.
There is another thread going on about a dog getting in the trash can and eating old food and should they be worried. Then it got into what trash can to buy and how big and etc. I contributed to this also and had to admit that I use the wrong trash can. LOL My only fault. Today I had to listen to a former employee tell the unemployment people that God himself couldn't work for this woman. Actually he may have been correct, but Rosie loves me.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

You have some valid points, Lucille, and at times some members' passions get the better of them and they post heated comments. I have done that myself and agree that it's not always the best way to deal with a situation you don't agree with. 

Karen, your first post in this thread is exactly how I feel - pretty much word for word - as is the way some others have posted here. There is a big difference to me between, say "Chrissy and Gizmo" and the original poster of "that" thread. I only felt total, and I really mean TOTAL respect for you, Chrissy, because when you first started posting, you told us right away that "she's from a pet store, but I didn't have a clue and I'm sorry, but please don't attack me" (I know I'm paraphrasing! lol) and I thought that was an intelligent, lay-it-all-out-there, respectful way of being honest without being confrontational. You know? It was obvious that you had done your homework after the fact and yet still wanted to reach out and join the forum as an active member. 

I get very emotional when people start talking casually about buying a dog off the internet, paper ads and pet stores because I have seen, in person, dogs seized from 5 diff. mills over the past 2 yrs. (we're talking 100's of dogs) It is not a pretty sight! I have held, cleaned, comforted, fed and cried over the mangled bodies and destroyed spirits of mill dams and sires. It is not something I can put aside, and be polite about when I see the nonchalance attitude of some people who get their dogs from questionable sources. Karen said she would prefer to see some of these "saved" dogs dead and I wholeheartedly agree. Some cases make you wonder at the state of humanity. If I choose to be blunt, rude and over-the-top hopping mad about that, I will be. 

There are many times I have to bite my tongue at the store I work at (health food for cats and dogs) when people brag about where they got their pet, but there are times when I see obnoxious, ignorant, hard-headed idiots and I want to strangle them! If it were MY store, I'd kick these people out with pleasure. :evil:

Some of you may have noticed that I tend to find old threads that often have to do with these "touchy" subjects and I bump them. We've been over this or that many times, so as someone recommended we do, we can definitely bump those threads and have a discussion about it there. But if it's between risking offending someone because of the choices they made or making a point with the hopes of teaching at least one person reading to change their ways, I may often choose the latter.


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## sprorchid (Mar 30, 2010)

Maybe the puppy mill topic/comments/thoughts is something the moderators should decide upon. Meaning that they decide or we decided if it's fair game to bring it up even if it's not the question at hand for the OP.

I'm active on the miata forum. and for years, every week there's a new thread about the miata being a gay car, and stories about the driver being called gay, blah blah blah, 3 months ago, the moderators banned it, and all similar comments to one thread. all other threads that have posts straying off topic to the girly-ness of the miata are closed by the moderators.

just a thought.

For the record, I'm with lilymylove on the puppy mill thing. without demand, there would be no need for the supply. end of story. and I do whole heartedly agree that education is the key. Beamer has a point, it doesn't hurt 'anyone', implying human, right? no it doesn't hurt a human. it hurts the dogs. second handedly a human may get injured by a poorly bred dog, but that's prolly wasn't Beamer's point. I'm not trying to single anybody out, or flame anyone. 
Some folks don't share the same philosophy about the inhumanity of it all or what is right and wrong, what's a big deal or not. and there's the rub.


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## Gizmo'sMom (Jul 9, 2010)

Scooter's Family said:


> Again I'll say, SHE STATED RIGHT AT THE START OF HER POST THAT SHE KNEW IT WASN'T THE RIGHT THING TO DO.


I believe what she said was its not the best choice which she later clarrified was due to health reasons not breeding horrors which is where I had been confused when I got Giz. Sometimes people don't know the whole thing. If she said I know the parents are suffering and being tortured but hey he was cute that would be entirely different.

That's again why I said its better to be careful because people who really don't know take better to things being explained then really harsh things being said. That usually will just Chase them away.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

Lucile-

There have been other threads on here in the past that have also gotten "harsh". I don't think it starts out that way but there are things that are going to upset people and this just happens to be one of those issues. I truly believe most people here are here for the same reasons, we love our dogs, we love this breed, and we want what's best for Havanese and all other dogs. I try to treat everyone exactly the way I'd like to be treated but do I always manage that? No I don't. Does anger get the best of me sometimes? Yes. In this case though I won't apologize for a single word I wrote in response on that thread.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

If someone posts that they think they are "rescuing" a puppy from a pet store and also they have an idea on where they come from, I think they should receive posts on what they are really doing to many other dogs who have no voice. Puppy mills are absolutely disgusting and I feel until they are shut down, one can't do enough education.

I also think if you truly love the breed you try to educate others. I want everyone to have a happy and healthy havanese and I want to protect the breed I love dearly 

Amanda (who spent a day picking a havanese bought from that same pet store who was dumped on the side of the road with busted patellas under the age of 2!)


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## brookeandcolby (Dec 31, 2009)

When I first joined the forum I got a PM from a very well know forum user/breeder (I won't mention names) and she asked me where I got my puppy and what vet I used...in my response I gave my vet's info and told her that I got my puppy from a breeder who was not ideal but not a puppy-mill (more of a backyard breeder) but he is perfectly healthy and the picture perfect puppy. She decided to not respond after that; I'm sure snubbing me for my breeder choice. Some people are unnecessarily rude!


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

I'm sitting at home tonight with Ruby, my HRI foster dog that was living as a breeder dog in a puppy mill just 2 short weeks ago. I can look at her and see the horrors of puppy mills in her eyes. BUT, and I know there are some Forum members that would disagree with this, I'm sure there are still people out there that don't know what puppy mills are and don't realize that every single pet shop puppy comes from a puppy mill. We really do still need lots of education. 
In my mind, people will be much more willing to keep reading and to stay a part of the Forum, where they will learn more and more, by being understanding. I'm certainly not saying ignore the facts or problem, but you don't have to bash the person or make them feel so bad over a mistake that they never come back and don't bother to learn anything.

Believe me, I struggle with this here at our dog park where probably 90% of the dogs are from our single pet store or BYB. It's much more difficult for me in person.

Beverly


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

*"I'm certainly not saying ignore the facts or problem, but you don't have to bash the person or make them feel so bad over a mistake that they never come back and don't bother to learn anything."*

You're right, Beverly, as is Lucille and others who have said this. I think that some subjects have some people seeing red - justified or not - and it gets the better of them. For me, it's all about attitude and intention from the poster. When I feel like the subject of discussion is being talked about in a nonchalant, disrespectful way, when it's something that is quite important to many of us, then my words can get a little heated.


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## tabby2 (Jan 19, 2009)

Anyone who's posting here in regard to this topic should show respect and sensitivity to the existing members of the Forum, and vice versa. 

Jane


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

Beverly,
You are so good to take loving care of Ruby. Thanks.

I had to deal with my next-door neighbor who recently bought a puppy from a pet store. My family doctor also bought from a petshop. I couldn't believe their ignorance of the issue, but I did refrain from screaming at them. LOL.

Couldn't agree with you more, about treating newbies on the forum with kindness. So much more education needs to be done about puppy mills and pet stores.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I have to agree that a number of times responses to newbies asking questions about a pet store puppy or some other hot topics have received a tongue lashing from a number of people in the group. IMHO Lucile is right. You can say the same thing in an educational way without being accusatory. I've been here for a very long time and have loved my interaction with the group but I must admit, if I were the person finding this group with excitement as a way to share discussion and information about my new dog, and I felt attacked (and there have been some in the past -- I don't know anything about the recent conversation), I would leave, never to get the good information offered.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

Gizmo'sMom said:


> After finding out about puppy mills I don't think the answer is to just not buy from pet stores (not trying to say you should support them), all that will happen is some will go under and where are all those puppies going to go.


The puppies they cannot sell usually end up in rescues, where nice people will adopt them and not pay outrageous amounts of money for mill puppies.

Supply and demand is the name of the game when it comes to puppy mills. If the public becomes educated and STOPS buying dogs from pet stores, those stores will no longer offer dogs for sale, the puppy mills will have no one to sell their dogs to, and they will be forced out of business.

I think the problem with people who come on the forum with pet store and BYB dogs is that so many of us are SO passionate about NOT supporting those types of establishments that it is literally impossible for us to hold our tongues. Not to say that we should be rude, but firm, yes. If everyone says "oh well pet stores sell puppy mill dogs but no big deal, your new doggie is sooo cute, well done!" then the problem of puppy mills will never end. It's a vicious cycle.

Also, IM(not so H)O, if someone is computer-savvy enough to find this forum, register, and then make posts, they're also computer-savvy to google "pet store dogs" where 4th link is an article that details pet store dogs being from mills and non-reputable breeders.

I'm just saying, if you're going to buy an animal that is going to be a part of your life for 10-20 years, I am going to encourage you to take some time to do your research, educate yourself, pick the right breed, breeder, etc. I like to think of a dog like a child - if you have a baby, you're responsible for it for a minimum of 18 years. Adding a dog to your life is a close second in terms of amount and span of responsibility.


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## tabby2 (Jan 19, 2009)

galaxie said:


> The puppies they cannot sell usually end up in rescues, where nice people will adopt them and not pay outrageous amounts of money for mill puppies.
> 
> Supply and demand is the name of the game when it comes to puppy mills. If the public becomes educated and STOPS buying dogs from pet stores, those stores will no longer offer dogs for sale, the puppy mills will have no one to sell their dogs to, and they will be forced out of business.
> 
> ...


Well said.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

You can only do so much. I was making my final plea to my brother as he was on the way to a "very good pet store that only has good dogs" not to buy from a pet store. I explained everything carefully. Two hours later I got the call, "can you hear our puppy in the background". Yep, I can. Good luck to you and your new puppy! What good is more lecture at that point? 
You can only lead the horse to the water. After that, just pray he drinks and flourishes.


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

mellowbo said:


> You can only do so much. I was making my final plea to my brother as he was on the way to a "very good pet store that only has good dogs" not to buy from a pet store. I explained everything carefully. Two hours later I got the call, "can you hear our puppy in the background". Yep, I can. Good luck to you and your new puppy! What good is more lecture at that point?
> You can only lead the horse to the water. After that, just pray he drinks and flourishes.


I feel your pain. I am so sick and tired of friends and family seeking advice on how to get a new puppy and then doing something completely opposite. Case in point: My best friend lost her mom late last year and was very depressed. She dreamed about getting a toy poodle puppy and the next morning while doing errands ran into the exact puppy she was dreaming about. She called me and said it was a sign and she had to get a toy poodle puppy that would accompany her everywhere. I was so excited, gave her my whole talk about how to pick a puppy, looked up dog shows, got toy poodle breeder referrals, etc, etc, etc. Two days later she calls me and tells me she has a maltipoo puppy on the way. When I asked where it comes from and looked up the site, it turned out to be a broker for I am sure puppy mills that she paid $2,000 for.

I firmly believe that people ask for your help and fully intend to do their own thing. After that two more of our mutual friends also empty nesters ended up getting pet store puppies. They are all intelligent, educated and financially secure. Unfortunately, as long as people continue to feed their need for instant gratification, the puppy mills and pet stores are here to stay.


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

sprorchid said:


> Maybe the puppy mill topic/comments/thoughts is something the moderators should decide upon. Meaning that they decide or we decided if it's fair game to bring it up even if it's not the question at hand for the OP.


I would hope the vote was a BIG NO to any subject censors. Some threads have been shut down because of the nature of the subject or the personalization of them. But to think we should not talk about puppy mills, the most horrendous travesty in the dog world would not be acceptable to most of us.

If someone just wants a "cute puppy" or "no it is not a Havanese" comment, then don't go into detail about where you bought the dog knowing it was not the best place.


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## Gizmo'sMom (Jul 9, 2010)

Only thing is ya have to know to search for that. I wish there was a site where reputable breeders only were posted and easy to find. For my next dog which I hope to get someday I would come here first and hopefully can find a great breeder where I can get to. It's hardest for total newbs to the dog world. Of course there are those that will do it anyway but if good breeders were easier to find and contact more people would. Before I knew about mills I wouldn't have recommended breeders cause as I said I couldn't get a response or help, now I would and could be more helpful  Even though I love Giz I do wish I found here first, least now I can try to help others


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

Luciledodd said:


> I don't think anything beyond answering her question and commenting that the puppy was precious no matter the breed and advising her that she should have recourse with the petstore for mislabeling the puppy anything else should have been said to this person. For all those that wanted to lecture this person on puppy mills and horror stories, they should have started another thread and let everyone get all that said like we are doing now.


I just can't see politely answering a posters question without bothering to pass on important information. If we were asked what type of knife one should use while drinking and driving would we only politely offer our advise on the knife?? It would be nice if everything we had to say was always upbeat and pleasant but that isn't reality. I felt on the other thread in question that although there were a wide variety of responses that everyone was quite civil in their replies. I didn't feel anyone was lecturing. I felt they wanted to educate.

Threads like these have happened in the past and moderators have let them continue because no one was being flamed. No one was under direct attack. We are allowed to speak our opinions on this forum without severe moderation even though some of the issues being talked about aren't pleasant. If you go back to the thread in question you will see that the OP handled the responses well and is now asking for help locating a responsible breeder to obtain a Havanese from.

There are alot of people on this forum that are very passionate about the breed and those that are also involved in animal rescue are even more so. When you say that many people don't know about puppy mills--well it's time they learned! It's important to get the information out there.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Short of reading every response here - I just want to say thank you to Lucille for bringing this subject up.
You all know that I have been a long term member - an oldie! 
When I first learned about and came to this forum, I already had two Havanese. Now although my guys are all from a fabulous breeder, the odds that mine might have come from a pet store are pretty good. I grew up in the country where getting a dog meant that one of your neighbors dogs had puppies. So when I grew up, I assumed pet store dogs WERE pure bred "better" dogs. I didn't even know puppy mills existed. If I had purchased my guys at a store, and come here and got blasted, I would have crept away quietly! Being so involved in HRI these past 2 years has taught me that a dog that needs saving, is simply a dog that needs saving - no matter where it comes from! I understand the process of supporting the mills by purchasing at a pet store, but I also understand the pull of Havanese eyes in a small cage, just begging to go someplace better. Most of us who have Havs for pets have agreed that the tug on the heart is a lot stronger than the head! And believe me, having just finished fostering my second mill dog, I understand the abuse the mills inflict. 
With all this being said, I agree that buying a pup from a store is wrong, but it happens, and some people just follow their hearts but...
We are a group that is here for education and friendship! When addressing these issues our job is to educate - not make people feel they cannot come here for information and help. 
Think of ourselves at school teachers - we want to educate but also want to keep the pupil present and learning!! It would break my heart to think that someone would leave before they can learn all about Mills, and the consequences of them, and get involved in HRI, and make longtime friends.
Just my 2 cents....


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Laurie, This is how I feel exactly. We all know someone getting their first Hav is likely to end up with another. So if a mistake was made on the first, lets hope by time the 2nd rolls around we have befriended the newbie and made them feel comfortable enough to seek out our advice on the 2nd. (Now there were some instances in the past, where the newbie is just rude and contrary and mean and then I say all bets are off. LOL) 

Sandi, I totally agree! censorship on this issue should not be tolerated. I would argue that there may be no place for censorship all. This is a public forum, when we post, we become public figures to this group and therefore open ourselves up to the friendship and sometimes critique of a public space. The difference I believe is that on the whole this group cares about it's members and is in most cases self governing. I am curious if those of you on other boards every experience threads on "how to be nicer." 

can you tell ILTHF!!!!! (i love the havanese forum) 

And Carole, I too feel your pain and agree once the deed is done, just hope all involved are happy and healthy. I have family who swear by pet store pups. And indeed their dogs are lovely... I too thought it was all about the health of the puppy at first, not the conditions of the enslaved breeding dogs. Puppies are resiliant and 8 times out of 10 they are going to thrive once they are in a loving home. But through this forum I learned about puppy mills, and had the privledge of watching some of these sad mommas transformed into happy havanese through all you wonderful foster moms.


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I think it would be a really good idea to have a sticky thread right up top about how to purchase a quality puppy. I got Gryff from a breeder who is probably a bit more "backyard". Gryff was only the second litter from the dam, but the sire was from a championship bloodline. I love my dog, but he is still a bit of a brat. He showed some signs of that right away in that first meeting, but I wanted him so badly I ignored some of the signs. Even though his parents he and his parents all tested out fine, he sometimes acts more like a cat than a dog and to this day still sometimes growls at my son. This may have more to do with Alec than Gryff, but there are other dogs that tolerate a lot more from a child than Gryff does. Gryff also has a luxating patella. Luckily, that doesn't slow him down or prevent him from having a wonderful RLH!

I guess my point is that people do purchase dogs from the heart sometimes. I thought I was doing the right thing by not buying from a pet store, but in the long run, I think I could have found a better match for my family. Gryff is such a velcro dog with me that he treats the rest of my family like second class citizens!


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## Gizmo'sMom (Jul 9, 2010)

I know sorta off topic...but I figured people might like this 

The BIG puppy store near my parents house is closed down  I know it's not the end battle, but hey it's a small victory right?


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Christy, I don't think your analogy about the drunk is not point and my first thought to answer your question is a flipant "depends on whether I in am in the car with him or not."

I rarely ever quote anyone, in fact I have had someone PM me that I obviously was referring to that person by this thread. Honestly, I didn't know that I was referring to anyone. And as to the threads that I referred to they were the only ones I could think of at the time to make my point. There are a lot of posts on this forum where people have bought mixed breed dogs and had nothing said negatively said to them. They were told how cute their puppy was and so should they be. Someone here said that we should provide a link to Puppy Mills and I believe that was done by the first responder to the OP. Perhaps the first responder to such posts should compliment the OP about the puppy and then insert the link stating that you might want to read this in case you have any health problems or other issues with your Pet store puppy and let that be that.

My mother in her 90 years always had a little dog--all were purchased from a pet store or BYB. She even bred one of her chihuahuas and kept the two puppys that I grew up with. They all lived to ripe old ages. My first schnauzer was from a pet store and lived a great long life. The second one came from a BYB and had health issues and died at 6 years old. I loved them both dearly. Rosie probably came from a BYB or hobby breeder and I love her dearly. I do know that her mother was a champion, don't know about the sire and Rosie had some health testing. I have the records. But will she come down with some dread disease? I don't know. Many of the forum members have dogs with health issues. Did all of these dogs come from less than desirable breeders?

I know that I am old school about many things. I know that a person doesn't have to spend big money on dogs for the dogs entertainment or food. But I also know that a lot of people get enjoyment out of doing so. I understand that. But some responsible puppy owners don't have the money to do so. I frequently give an answer about cheap treats and toys for those persons. By doing so, I am not disagreeing with those that go all out about the subject. For instance as an experienced dress maker, I know that a good pair of scissors doesn't have to cost over a hundred dollars and I am more happy with my petco brush than the Chris Chris one that I bought for twice the money.

I say let everyone enjoy the dog that they have and by reading the forum and being educated about other topics perhaps they will make a better decision later.

Lucile


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

I am "respectfully" bowing out of this thread as I feel it's now beating a dead horse and you can bet I'll keep my mouth shut from now on.


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## pacehavi (Oct 20, 2008)

Please don't keep your mouth shut Ann! You are passionate about this topic, as are others and those voices are needed. I was (and still mostly am) a lurker and have learned so much from you and others on this topic. Realize that those who post are just the tip of the iceberg of those who read this forum. So having these debates/discussions really helps a lot of people find the right place (for them) to buy a dog. Maybe we can come up with a way to respond to those who have bought dogs from pet stores that would be welcoming but also educate others? And I do think when people ask about breeding their pet store puppies or mixed dogs then they need to hear a stern NO! 

And from what I understand, though the health of the puppy is one thing to consider, I think the crux of the anti-mill feelings are about the health and living conditions of the adult breeding dogs--who often are shot/drowned/or otherwise disposed of when they are no longer useful. This also happens to 'imperfect' puppies, unless they can be rescued. Basically they are treated as any other type of livestock. Whether someone thinks this is ethical is their decision of course. BUT many of these pet stores LIE about these conditions--making it seems like all dogs are raised in loving homes. And often charge as much if not more than actual reputable breeders. If someone wants to get a Havanese or Hav mix cheaply HRI or petfinder is (IMO) the best way to go.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ivyagogo said:


> I think it would be a really good idea to have a sticky thread right up top about how to purchase a quality puppy. I got Gryff from a breeder who is probably a bit more "backyard". Gryff was only the second litter from the dam, but the sire was from a championship bloodline. I love my dog, but he is still a bit of a brat. He showed some signs of that right away in that first meeting, but I wanted him so badly I ignored some of the signs. Even though his parents he and his parents all tested out fine, he sometimes acts more like a cat than a dog and to this day still sometimes growls at my son. This may have more to do with Alec than Gryff, but there are other dogs that tolerate a lot more from a child than Gryff does. Gryff also has a luxating patella. Luckily, that doesn't slow him down or prevent him from having a wonderful RLH!
> 
> I guess my point is that people do purchase dogs from the heart sometimes. I thought I was doing the right thing by not buying from a pet store, but in the long run, I think I could have found a better match for my family. Gryff is such a velcro dog with me that he treats the rest of my family like second class citizens!


From what you have posted here, it's really hard to tell much about Gryff's breeder. But it does sound like Gryff might not have been the best match for your family. It sounds like it was one of those "heart over head" decisions.<g> When my trainer-friend went down with me to temperament test Kodi and help me pick the "perfect puppy", she had one firm rule... she was only willing to go if I PROMISED to walk away if she said the puppy wasn't right for me and my family.

Actually, Kodi wasn't the puppy I originally went down to look at. And fortunately ALL the puppies had wonderful temperaments. But I can certainly understand how hard it is to walk away when you have your heart set on a puppy. Been there and done that.<g>


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gizmo'sMom said:


> I know sorta off topic...but I figured people might like this
> 
> The BIG puppy store near my parents house is closed down  I know it's not the end battle, but hey it's a small victory right?


That sounds like a BIG victory to me! Think of how many puppies a year one of those big chain stores move?:cheer2:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

pacehavi said:


> And from what I understand, though the health of the puppy is one thing to consider, I think the crux of the anti-mill feelings are about the health and living conditions of the adult breeding dogs--who often are shot/drowned/or otherwise disposed of when they are no longer useful. This also happens to 'imperfect' puppies, unless they can be rescued. Basically they are treated as any other type of livestock. Whether someone thinks this is ethical is their decision of course. BUT many of these pet stores LIE about these conditions--making it seems like all dogs are raised in loving homes. And often charge as much if not more than actual reputable breeders. If someone wants to get a Havanese or Hav mix cheaply HRI or petfinder is (IMO) the best way to go.


YES!!!!!

BTW, from what I can see, puppy mill dogs are treated much WORSE than many types of livestock, simply because, on a per-animal basis, each individual isn't worth very much. (to the miller) A steer or even a pig, let alone a horse or a dairy cow is a valuable animal. On top of that, they are consumed by human beings. The combination means that there are a lot tighter controls on their health and well-being. The farmer wants them to be healthy because if they are, they will grow faster, produce more, and bring in more money. The government will shut them down if the animals are ill to prevent diseased meat or milk getting into the human food supply.

There is a lot that could be done to improve the lives of food animals in general, but I think, with the exception of poultry, what happens to mill dogs is the worst. And buying puppies from pet stores perpetuates that problem.


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## Gizmo'sMom (Jul 9, 2010)

krandall said:


> That sounds like a BIG victory to me! Think of how many puppies a year one of those big chain stores move?:cheer2:


Unfortunately it's not a chain store, but it was a BLOCK long :cheer2::cheer2:


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I really shouldn't say she was a back yard breeder, but she was new to breeding. Gryff is a bit stand-offish. He would be perfect for a single person. I'm not saying he doesn't love my husband and my son to some extent as well, it's just that he is really into me specifically and snubs the rest of the family when I'm around. Not exactly what we were hoping for in a family dog, but I suppose you never know 100% what you're going to get.



krandall said:


> From what you have posted here, it's really hard to tell much about Gryff's breeder. But it does sound like Gryff might not have been the best match for your family. It sounds like it was one of those "heart over head" decisions.<g> When my trainer-friend went down with me to temperament test Kodi and help me pick the "perfect puppy", she had one firm rule... she was only willing to go if I PROMISED to walk away if she said the puppy wasn't right for me and my family.
> 
> Actually, Kodi wasn't the puppy I originally went down to look at. And fortunately ALL the puppies had wonderful temperaments. But I can certainly understand how hard it is to walk away when you have your heart set on a puppy. Been there and done that.<g>


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

I agree...that's a BIG victory and one to be celebrated!


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## Gizmo'sMom (Jul 9, 2010)

BeverlyA said:


> I agree...that's a BIG victory and one to be celebrated!


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## Lilly'sMom (Jan 28, 2010)

I would like to applaud Lucille’s courage in starting this thread. It seems to me that she is a compassionate soul who is concerned about the delicate feelings of anyone who happens to stumble upon this wonderful forum. I hope her original point isn’t being lost in this petstore/byb debate. She obviously touched a few nerves and people have gotten defensive. Here are a few rules I try to keep:

*I proofread everything I write to make sure something doesn’t have unintentional negative undertones.
*I don’t say anything in writing that I wouldn’t say to a person’s face (at least I try not to).
*I try not to judge other people – I hate when people judge me. They don’t know all the circumstances that led to my decision or behavior.
*And lastly, I try to remember that, sadly, there’s not much I can do to change all that’s wrong with this world. But, actions speak louder than words.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Thank You.

Lucile


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## Lilly'sMom (Jan 28, 2010)

You're welcome. It's heartwarming to see someone who cares enough to make a stand that is not self centered.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

Lilly'sMom said:


> You're welcome. It's heartwarming to see someone who cares enough to make a stand that is not self centered.


I don't think there's anything self-centered about responding passionately and firmly to a post that deals with an issue that affects you on a very deep, personal level.

Puppy mills and (many) BYBs are horrible situations and not the right places to find a new dog. Just yesterday at the dog park I met two new people with stories that relate directly to why BYBs and mills are AWFUL. The first one was a young woman around my age; her mutt dog she rescued when her sketchy neighbor skipped town and the landlord came to change the locks - he was just going to let the dog "go" in the neighborhood. The second one was a younger guy, around 20 or 21, who was walking home from a friend's house and heard whimpering coming from a garbage bin. He opened it and found a little puppy, which he raised.

Today, as my boyfriend and I were driving through a neighborhood looking for potential homes, we came across a little Lhasa mix standing in the middle of the road. I pulled over and got out to see if she had a collar - no. I knelt down and tried to get her to come to me, but she shook and growled a bit. As I got a little closer, she scampered under some bushes. So, I got back in the car and followed her. A couple of blocks later, she was standing in a front yard. So, I went up to the front door, knocked, and asked the people inside if the dog belonged to them. They said yes, that every time they opened the door, she would get out (DUH!!). They also had a front gate that closed completely and could have kept the dog in, but they were just too flipping lazy to close it. It was obvious that she gets out all the time and they don't even BOTHER to look for her. Eventually, she is going to get hit by a car, attacked by a bigger dog, or stolen! These people have NO business owning a dog.

THESE are prime examples of what happens to dogs when people make snap decisions to purchase them when they have NO place doing so.

I understand that Lucille is older and is a "country girl". My boyfriend's mom is from the same small town that Lucille is from - I have been there (it's beautiful), so I can understand where she is coming from in that back in her day, it was totally normal for farmers to have dogs running free on their farm/property and when they had puppies, they just gave them away to friends and family. Unfortunately, times have changed and these poor animals are treated like ATMs - an endless source of money. It's cruel and unthinkable what these sweet babies go through, and personally, I absolutely refuse to keep my mouth shut on the subject.

Call me what you want, but *if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.*


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## Lilly'sMom (Jan 28, 2010)

Wow. It's too bad people are so hyper-sensitive. You totally misinterpreted what I said. I wasn't implying that anyone here is self-serving. I was applauding Lucille for being considerate of other people's feelings. I am not talking about the puppy mill issue. I'm talking about being considerate of other people's feelings in general. I have seen posts regarding other issues where someone could easily be offended. I think I'm done with Havanese Forum. I come here for information and to be uplifted by everyone's pictures and stories, not all this negativity.


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## Lilly'sMom (Jan 28, 2010)

And, by the way, I would be more than happy to stand and fight beside any of you who actually want to to take some kind of action to end all this animal abuse. The word has been out for many years regarding the evils of buying puppies at pet stores and yet they continue to thrive. Simply telling people not to buy them just isn't working and attacking people on this forum isn't going to change anything either.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Wow again. I opened my e-mail at a "country girls" early and skimmed the post and put it aside before coming on the forum. I thought what I would say back and honestly couldn't think of a nice reply. Karen said it best for me, so I will remain silent. But Karen neither of us are leaving the forum. It is to much fun and educational. I just won't get involved in controverial issues anymore.

Lucile


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## Lilly'sMom (Jan 28, 2010)

I am not a "country girl" and I don't know if I'm as "old" as you Lucille but these young whippersnappers are going to have a few tough lessons to learn in life if they don't learn how to respect other people. I totally resent someone "going off" on me without knowing where I'm coming from. Talk about preaching to the choir. 

I would also like to mention something else. Life is hard. When someone tunes into the forum, no one knows what that person might be going through in his/her personal life. They might be dealing with health issues, marriage/family issues, money woes, etc. They might come here looking for escape from their stress. What is more healing than the face of a Havanese pup? Does anyone here really want to add to that person's pain? Maybe some of the younger folks who have grown up in this cyber-bullying world don't understand common courtesy but I have a hard time tolerating this behavior.


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

Guys, Please stop getting offended and lashing out at each other. I haven't seen anyone attacking each other here and now things are being taken out of context. Natalie wasn't saying you are old Lucille. She was saying you are older-as in from an older generation where things were done differently. It wasn't meant to be a personal attack--it was about describing an era. No one needs to leave the forum and no one needs to stop speaking their opinions but you guys do need to take a moment before posting to calm down.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

Lilly'sMom said:


> Wow. It's too bad people are so hyper-sensitive. You totally misinterpreted what I said. I wasn't implying that anyone here is self-serving. I was applauding Lucille for being considerate of other people's feelings. I am not talking about the puppy mill issue. I'm talking about being considerate of other people's feelings in general. I have seen posts regarding other issues where someone could easily be offended. I think I'm done with Havanese Forum. I come here for information and to be uplifted by everyone's pictures and stories, not all this negativity.


Given the nature of this thread and the topic that it relates to, you have to understand why I responded the way I did.

I mentioned earlier that I totally agree with Lucile in that we should respond respectfully to other members. I have NEVER launched any personal attack on anyone on this forum, and Christy has hit the nail on the head. Lucile herself has explained where her viewpoint comes from - I was simply illustrating that I understand where she is coming from and why.

If I was "preaching to the choir", I was obviously unaware and I apologize. You didn't make your opinion of the mill/BYB subject known, and I was just responding with my opinion and the reasons I hold those beliefs near and dear to my heart.

I don't think there is "all this negativity" on the forum. Not every topic is going to be sunshine and rainbows! Unfortunately, as you well know, there is a very dark side to the dog industry, and as responsible, caring, passionate, loving dog owners, many of us feel that it is our responsibility to educate and inform those who are unaware. Sure, there are plenty of threads that are full of cute photos and funny captions, and there are also threads that are brimming with information. To you, information may be grooming tips, nutritional suggestions, or training practices. To another member who does not know about the situation with mills and BYBs, threads dealing with this topic may be informational to them. Just because a thread does not provide you with new information does not mean that it will not provide anyone with new information 

This forum IS a great resource for many different topics. You two are taking my post FAR too personally. I was stating my opinions and beliefs, not discounting yours. Asserting myself does not equal attacking you! (nor does it equal cyber-bullying)


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## oohbetty (Mar 2, 2009)

I totally agree. I would like people in our forum to be as polite online as they would be in person. I left another online group because I felt I was being attacked by people in the group so I know that it can be very devastating.


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## tabby2 (Jan 19, 2009)

For me, I'm going to be taking a vacation from the Forum for awhile and hope that we're all restored to our normal friendliness when i come back. 

Hope everyone has a good week and a good rest of the summer!


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## jetsetgo! (Aug 3, 2010)

Wow, thank you for your lovely post, *Lucilledod*. As a new member, it's really encouraging to know there are people who care about new members. I'm happy to say I have already gotten some wonderful welcomes from several long-standing members.

I am actually a mod for a very active shopping forum and see how some wonderful people can resort to being territorial and unwelcoming to "newbies" and wishing for the old days. In their defense, I know it's hard to answer the same old questions over and over - or accept someone who is not already in the flow of things. I've not seen all the ways it's happened here, but I just know from experience that it's a possibility - and I do appreciate your post very much.

It's been a long time since I have been new to a forum, so I have found it somewhat intimidating experience to start fresh - especially since I am not only new to the forum but new to dogs!

So, thank you to *everyone* who has been full of welcoming kindness and help.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Hi Jetsetgo,

I would be EXTREMELY surprised if you didn't get a warm welcome here. People on this forum, in general, are very warm, welcoming and helpful. I've been here for a little more than a year and came on the forum for the first time when I was looking for a Hav puppy, just like you.

Not only did I learn a TON that helped me find a wonderful dog from a great breeder (on this forum!) but the people on the forum were overwhelmingly supportive, kind and helpful. Sure, there is a bad apple in every barrel, but they tend not to stay around often.

The threads that some people find uncomfortable are those where people buy puppy mill/BYB puppies and support an industry that many here, including myself, feel passionate about. We all understand that some people have purchased these puppies without knowing any better. These people usually get told about the horrors of puppy mills to make them aware, for the future, that this is a poor option. OTOH, once they own their puppy and are part of the forum, we all wish them nothing but good luck and welcome them in any way we can. 

It's just hard (and in the opinion of many of us, unethical) not to say anything about the puppy mill/BYB situation when we not only know the horrendous conditions the parent dogs are kept under, let alone when we see the heart break of many of these people as they deal with health problems in these dogs down the line.

That said, everyone in this thread is correct... these comments can and should be made in a respectful, supportive way, as should all follow-up exchanges between all parties. It just makes the forum a nicer place for all of us to be!


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