# Panda's Puppy Journal



## krandall

I've decided to share with everyone here something exciting in our lives that has been in the "works" for a while. A FEW people here know, but not many. It has taken me a LONG time to come to the decision, but last summer I made the decision to breed Panda on her next heat if everything went right. I thought you folks might like to come along on the journey, through the ups and downs as they happen. For all we know, there could be no puppies! Because that's the reality in breeding dogs. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But I decided that that's part of the process too, and the rest of you might be interested in coming along for the ride too, with a first-time breeder.

Partially, I've put off making this announcement this long that is because I did not want to be deluged with PM's, considering how many people come to the forum looking for puppies. It is NOT ALLOWED to sell puppies on the forum. So please keep this in mind. I will update this thread as things go forward, and today, I'll bring you up to date so far. Those of you who have been on the forum for a while know bits and pieces of this about Panda, but I'll put it all here in one place for newer folks.

I had no intention of getting another dog when I got Panda. I already had two, and one (Pixel) was still a puppy. And older puppy, but still a puppy. But it was love at first sight. And she was VERY special. Well-bred, good conformation, VERY pretty, and a charming "Look at me!!!" personality. When her breeder offered her to me, I couldn't say no!

The deal from the beginning was that I would show her to her championship as well as in performance events. Because she was being shown in conformation, she had to be kept intact. Since THAT was the case, I decided I wanted to go through the process of getting all her health testing done, even though I had no clear intention of breeding her. (I also knew how often breeders have their hopes dashed by health testing!) But her health testing all came back A-OK and she has her CHIC number. She has been every bit the worker I thought she would be, with multiple performance titles, and she finished her conformation championship in minimal showing with two 5-point majors.

So after thinking it through carefully, and with this enforced break in our show and performance schedules because of Covid, and after discussing it with several breeders that I respect highly, I decided that I would breed her.

Then came choosing "Mr. Right". Looking through pedigrees, assessing structure and temperament, etc. A prospective mate has to not only be a "nice dog", but a good fit for your bitch. You want to try to improve any weaknesses, while still staying close in type. You will read all kinds of opinions about "line breeding", and how closely related dogs should be. As an inexperienced breeder, I do not feel comfortable with close breedings, so I definitely wanted to avoid that. I finally arranged to breed her to a very nice, well-known stud dog.

Then the long wait for her to come into season. Her "six-month date" would have been Nov. 1. I arranged for her first visit to the repro vet we were referred to by our regular vet on Oct. 31. (I am VERY lucky to have a good repro vet just 20 minutes from my house!!!) The very nice new vet agreed with me that she wasn't showing ANY signs of heat yet, and we arranged that I would call her to arrange next steps when she came in.

And so we waited. And waited. For THREE MONTHS!!! Panda FINALLY decided to come in last Sunday. Great. 

Meanwhile, back at the ranch... the chosen boy is in Florida showing, and won't be home until the end of Feb. After talking to the stud owner, it became apparent that it just wasn't going to work. In normal times, she and I could fly down there. Not with Covid. 

To be continued...


----------



## krandall

Having lost our stud dog, we needed to make other plans FAST! A few days of frantic phone call consults between myself and several breeder friends ensued, with us poring over the possible suspects within driving distance. "These two are too large. This one is too closely related. That one is not her type. The one is long-backed and so is she... we don't want to double up on that." 

Then... "Hey, wait!" **** (of the "oops" litter in the fall, and sire to two "forum pups") is now two, and got all his health testing fast-tracked at that point! He is similar in breeding in terms of the TYPE of breeding (one side European lines one side old American lines) but no overlapping ancestors in 5 generations. **** has a wonderful, sweet, out-going disposition, is VERY cute and shorter backed than she is. ...And he's available and close by... only about 40 minutes from my house! So I called his breeder and asked her. **** actually belongs to her daughter Sarah, who also agreed to the arranged marriage!

Yesterday Panda went back to the repro vet for a progesterone test for us to find out how close she is to being ready to breed. She also had a vaginal cytology done just to make sure she was healthy. (yes) Her progesterone was at 2.1, leading the vet(s) (****'s breeder is a vet too!) to guess that she will ovulate on Wed. or Thurs. She will go back to the vet for another progesterone test on Thurs. and in all likelihood, will be bred on Friday and Sunday... POSSIBLY Tuesday if she will still stand for him.

So with any luck, by this weekend, Nauti Herd Compact Flash and Fivefield's **** Amazing will have tied the knot!


----------



## Vartina Ancrum

Oh wow. How exciting! I am looking forward to Panda's journey as a new mom!! I will make sure to stay tuned.


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

Oh this will be so fun to follow! Thank you for sharing this, Karen!


----------



## krandall

Good! I'm hoping people will enjoy it... And learn as I do. Feeling excited and a bit overwhelmed at the same time!

And TRYING not to over-buy until I KNOW there are puppies on the way. I have the whelping box, and a couple of friends have given me a few other things I'll need, but I'm trying NOT to buy too much until I know FOR SURE there are puppies in there!


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> I have the whelping box, and a couple of friends have given me a few other things I'll need, but I'm trying NOT to buy too much until I know FOR SURE there are puppies in there!


Just to prove my ignorance, what is a "whelping box" - size, dimensions, materials? How do you determine when Panda is pregnant - temperature, progesterone, ? Could Panda's weight gain be a function of that she is in heat? reggers: When would a litter be expected IF the stars are aligned? Panda is a B/W Parti and **** appears to be a light champagne color (chocolate?). What hair colors are dominant and recessive?

Ricky's Popi


----------



## Molly120213

Thanks for taking us along on this journey with you and Panda.


----------



## ShamaMama

And, just to show everyone that there's no such thing as a dumb question, when a good breeder breeds dogs, do they usually just put the dogs together at the right time and let them "do the wild thing?" Or are the bitches frequently artificially inseminated?


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Just to prove my ignorance, what is a "whelping box" - size, dimensions, materials?


I put a product shot photo of the Durawhelp I am using below. They can be made of a lot of different things... They can be a big cardboard box... Some people use plastic kiddie pools. The one I'm using is a commercially available one made of lightweight corrugated plastic boards. A lot of people I know use them and like them. If Panda had gone into heat when she SHOULD have, I could have borrowed one... But since she was so late... her need will overlap with another litter and I had to buy one. It's about 3' square and has a "pig rail" that supposedly allows the puppies to get out from under a mom who might accidentally trap them between her body and the edge of the box. There is a low section on the front to allow the mom to get in and out easily while keeping the pups from crawling out. There is a piece that you can slide into that slot to make SURE the puppies stay put when mom isn't in there with them.



Ricky Ricardo said:


> How do you determine when Panda is pregnant - temperature, progesterone, ?


Normally, she would start to develop more prominent nipples, and start to develop a bit of a belly. About 30 days after breeding, she will have an ultrasound, to confirm pregnancy and to give us a VERY ROUGH estimate on numbers.



Ricky Ricardo said:


> Could Panda's weight gain be a function of that she is in heat? reggers:


LOL! NOW you sound like DAVE! She hasn't been BRED yet! She is NOT pregnant, and there is no reason to gain weight. The ONLY reason for weight gain was increased calories. Plus, she wasn't even in heat when it happened. This started at the end of Oct., when I switched her food, and DAVE started feeling "broody" and "eating for two". I'm going to get both of you a jar of pickles!  She came into heat 9 days ago. 

More seriously, she should not gain any weight during pregnancy until the second half of her pregnancy. It is not unusual for bitches to actually lose their appetite during the latter part of their pregnancy, just because the pups are pressing on all their internal organs.



Ricky Ricardo said:


> When would a litter be expected IF the stars are aligned?


If I'm counting right, (and I'm a novice here) I believe they would be due right around Easter. "The Easter Bunny litter" 



Ricky Ricardo said:


> Panda is a B/W Parti and **** appears to be a light champagne color (chocolate?). What hair colors are dominant and recessive?


**** is a gold sable. He would have to have brown skin on his nose and around his eyes to be a chocolate. (chocolate has nothing to do with hair color really... it is the pigment color that makes a dog a chocolate) He CARRIES chocolate... We know that because he sired several pretty chocolate puppies in his "oops" litter. His grandma is a beautiful chocolate. But Panda does not carry chocolate, and chocolate puppies must get a chocolate gene from each parent. So there won't be any chocolate puppies. OTOH, Panda's dam is a pretty red sable. (photo below) ****'s dam is a black irish pied, and we KNOW he can produce B&W parti, because he is sire to Fezzik. **** COULD also carry "ee" (clear red) because his sire is clear red, but since Panda has no clear red in her background anywhere, that really has no chance of expression. So the puppies could be B&W or any shade of sable. Probably. But Havanese can surprise you.


----------



## krandall

ShamaMama said:


> And, just to show everyone that there's no such thing as a dumb question, when a good breeder breeds dogs, do they usually just put the dogs together at the right time and let them "do the wild thing?" Or are the bitches frequently artificially inseminated?


It can be done either way. Sometimes distance makes AI the only possibility. Sometimes there can be reasons to worry about the safety of one dog or the other, which leads to an AI. With Havanese, if either dog had a temperament that made a natural breeding "unsafe", I'm not sure _I_ would want to do it. More experienced breeders might have other thoughts on that. I have been told that live cover if you can arrange it, results in a better chance at pregnancy, and a better chance at a larger litter. side by side AI is next, shipped cooled semen is next, and frozen semen is last. But there are reasons why someone might want to choose any of these.

In my particular case, Panda, at 5, is on the older end for a maiden bitch. She is not old to have a litter, but she is old to have a FIRST litter. I am also not at ALL sure there will be any MORE litters. This may very well be a "one time only" thing for both of us. (we both want to get back to playing in the obedience ring when Covid is over!) In which case, I wanted to stack the odds in our favor as much as we could.

Also, even with live cover, it's not TOTALLY "letting them do the wild thing". The stud dog's owner and I will both be there, supervising closely, and making sure that they stay quiet while tied, so that neither one of them gets hurt.


----------



## Mama Mills

Wow this is very exciting news!! Thanks for bringing us along on the journey. 

Silly side note - our breeder once referred to herself as “grandma” which I thought was cute!


----------



## Heather's

This is so exciting! Such a beautiful couple! 💞 Thanks for letting us all be part of Panda and ****'s journey!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

I don’t often comment on here as I usually don’t half have the knowledge about Havanese questions that you guys do but wow this is so exciting:cheer2: I just had to say congratulations on your decision to breed Panda!

Panda and **** are going to make such cute puppies:x Can’t wait to see what an adorable mummy Panda will be and what Auntie Pixel and Uncle Kodi will make of things:grin2:

Thanks so much for sharing this with us all Karen!


----------



## Wulfin

This is super exciting!! I will definitely be following this new adventure


----------



## 31818

GoWithTheFlo said:


> I don't often comment on here as I usually don't half have the knowledge about Havanese questions that you guys do


Anyone who is clever enough to have a screen name like @GoWithTheFlo has a lot to contribute! It is also interesting to hear about Havanese from Europe - what do you feed them, travel to EU countries, indigenous canine diseases and pests, etc. It is good to get a different perspective.

You probably already know this bit of dog trivia, but I bet not many in the US do! The Canary Islands are NOT named after the Canary bird, I know I thought that.  The Canary Islands were originally discovered and populated by the Spanish. They called them "Las Islas de Canarios" (the Islands of dogs) canario = canine = dog in Spanish. The islands were heavily populated by a unique species of dog. I think the species is now extinct. When the English claimed the islands, they Anglicized the Spanish name to "the Canary Islands."

Also, I just finished watching the movie, "The Dig" on Netflix. It is the true story of the discovery and excavation of an Anglo-Saxon king's grave site, dating from the 6th century, by Basil Brown in 1939 on Edith Pretty's estate in Suffolk. It is called the "Sutton Hoo" discovery. The discovery is said to be equally important to King Tut's tomb by archaeologists. The king's dog was found buried with the king and the skeleton has been preserved. The dog appears to be about 40 pounds of unknown breed. Now I want to go to London to see the exhibit at the Royal Museum! Maybe the next time you go to London you could go to the museum and take some pictures on my behalf! Also have a meal on my behalf at Wagamamas (Asian fusion) restaurant. @krandall they have an outlet in Boston too.

My ancestors came from County Longford in Ireland. :wink2: It is fortunate that God loves the Irish because they can be a very difficult people, but we do love dogs.

Ricky's Popi


----------



## Tom King

Our whelping boxes are 2'x3'. When it's time to start with the litter box, 3' wide will be pretty wide. I made the starting litter box. I probably have a thread somewhere here with pictures, and details.

The sleeping space has to be just the right size. Big enough for Mom to get in, and nurse, but no larger than absolutely necessary, so the pups get full use of their instinct not to soil their bed.

We've put the litter box start earlier, and earlier, until it's now no later than 3 weeks, and depending on how agile the pups are, can be earlier than that.

Pam can give you a list of stuff to have on hand at whelping.

edited to add: We also just watched The Dig a few nights ago. Also highly recommended is A Hidden Life. The story is long, slow, and sad, but the cinematography of the Austrian old farm life, buildings, and scenery is just stunning.


----------



## krandall

Tom King said:


> Our whelping boxes are 2'x3'. When it's time to start with the litter box, 3' wide will be pretty wide. I made the starting litter box. I probably have a thread somewhere here with pictures, and details.
> 
> The sleeping space has to be just the right size. Big enough for Mom to get in, and nurse, but no larger than absolutely necessary, so the pups get full use of their instinct not to soil their bed.


I was guessing on the size... It's the same size that Elinor and Elizabeth use, so I'm sure it's OK. I just haven't even taken it out of the box yet! It is square, though! I'll put a photo of Poppy in Elinor's below. (and Panda is bigger than Poppy)



Tom King said:


> We've put the litter box start earlier, and earlier, until it's now no later than 3 weeks, and depending on how agile the pups are, can be earlier than that.


Yup! These puppies will DEFINITELY be started in the "Pam and Tom early litter box training system"! 



Tom King said:


> Pam can give you a list of stuff to have on hand at whelping.


I'm fully intending to call her. I just know she's kind of up to her ears right now, but some go home soon... And Panda isn't even bred yet, so there is time on mine!

And for other people reading, this is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL! NO ONE should be breeding dogs without at least one, preferably a couple (especially if one is long distance!  ) of experienced, top-notch breeders to mentor you. There is just WAY too much to learn to try to wing it on your own the first few times. I feel so lucky that I have been able to learn from Pam and Tom and my local breeder friends over the past almost 12 years now.



Tom King said:


> edited to add: We also just watched The Dig a few nights ago. Also highly recommended is A Hidden Life. The story is long, slow, and sad, but the cinematography of the Austrian old farm life, buildings, and scenery is just stunning.


I want to watch BOTH of these!!!


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

Oh I'm so going to follow this thread!! How exciting. I had to Google "repro vet". Duh! The sire is gorgeous! This is going to be so much fun!


----------



## 31818

I am very excited for Panda's new adventure. I know she will be a loving Mama. Too bad it didn't work out with the first sire, I know from experience they would have produced a beautiful litter :wink2::wink2::wink2: but I am prejudiced. **** is a pretty boy and they should produce a colorful litter. I will be watching this thread closely with much interest!

Ricky's Popi


----------



## morriscsps

Awww... **** is a doll. He was so sweet and had serious zoomies!

I am excited for you!


----------



## krandall

Today was our first consummation of the marriage.  The PLAN had been to wait until Friday, but she was tormenting Kodi last night and this morning, so we decided to see if **** thought she was ready. **** said "yes". SHE said "yes". So the deed was done.  We'll still have another progesterone pulled tomorrow, so we have a better idea on her exact day of ovulation. She'll go back for another "roll in the hay" on Friday, and if they are still interested, Sunday.


----------



## Wulfin

Yay for a successful tie today! Hopefully the timing is right, she’ll stand for him again and make some beautiful babies together


----------



## Tere

He is soooo cute, I'd even consider "having babies" with him. I hope it works out for Panda!

Everytime one of my neighbors with an unaltered pet says they might breed their dog, I roll my eyes! They think it would be fun and easy money. Little do they know. It is usually the same people who don't supervise their kids or their dogs...no time!


----------



## krandall

Wulfin said:


> Yay for a successful tie today! Hopefully the timing is right, she'll stand for him again and make some beautiful babies together


Well, sperm from a live tie can easily live for 7 days, so one cover SHOULD be enough. (and why it is SO important to keep females you DON'T want bred from getting "caught" by a boy when they are in heat!!!) But when you want to make SURE you are covering all the bases, you usually try for at least two or if they will, and it's not a huge effort, and in this case, it's not, three ties.


----------



## 31818

I feel like a voyeur! :redface:

Ricky's Popi


----------



## Wulfin

With Denver being from a multi-sire litter (intentional but not “planned” (mom originally wouldn’t stand for selected sire, so they used another, but then she stood for the original one when they thought to try one last time being flying out), this is something I know more about than I ever thought I would. That being said, I only know in theory, not in practice!)


----------



## Mando's Mommy

How exciting, Karen! I'll be following Panda's journey.


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I feel like a voyeur! :redface:
> 
> Ricky's Popi


LOL! And you weren't down on the floor with them!


----------



## krandall

Wulfin said:


> With Denver being from a multi-sire litter (intentional but not "planned" (mom originally wouldn't stand for selected sire, so they used another, but then she stood for the original one when they thought to try one last time being flying out), this is something I know more about than I ever thought I would. That being said, I only know in theory, not in practice!)


Panda was from a multi-sired litter too. In her case it was intentional AND planned!


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> LOL! And you weren't down on the floor with them!


I know when it is time for me to bow wow out of the conversation.

Ricky's Popi


----------



## Sheri

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I feel like a voyeur! :redface:
> 
> Ricky's Popi


I'm laughing... But, yeah, a little bit...


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I know when it is time for me to bow wow out of the conversation.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


LOL! She was tired enough that she left Kodi alone tonight!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Anyone who is clever enough to have a screen name like @GoWithTheFlo has a lot to contribute! It is also interesting to hear about Havanese from Europe - what do you feed them, travel to EU countries, indigenous canine diseases and pests, etc. It is good to get a different perspective...
> 
> Ricky's Popi I didn't know the history behind the naming of the Canary Islands, thank you for filling me in:smile2: I also ended up staying up late to watch The Dig last night - so will blame you if I am tired for the rest of the day>
> 
> Won't go into lots of detail here (as don't want to hijack Panda's thread) but a few quick details would be: Flo is fed on a prepared raw food diet, we tend to holiday in England as it suits us better just to pop Flo in the car and bring her along, she is vaccinated against Distemper, Hepatitis, Parvovirus, Leptospirosis, Parainfluenza and Kennel Cough. Rabies is pretty much eradicated here so no need to vaccinate against that. Very happy to open another thread to discuss any differences in more detail if it interests anyone to chat further. Xx


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

krandall said:


> Today was our first consummation of the marriage.  The PLAN had been to wait until Friday, but she was tormenting Kodi last night and this morning, so we decided to see if **** thought she was ready. **** said "yes". SHE said "yes". So the deed was done.  We'll still have another progesterone pulled tomorrow, so we have a better idea on her exact day of ovulation. She'll go back for another "roll in the hay" on Friday, and if they are still interested, Sunday.


Lol I am loving the '**** said "yes". SHE said "yes." Reminds me of when Flo had her first season; the day before I was aware she was coming into heat we were at the park and her good friend Teddy the Coton de Tulear, said "yes" but Flo shot him a disgusted look, promptly sat down and snapped him and definitely said "NO!":argue:

Am also smiling at the thought of Panda coquettishly waggling her bottom in front of a terrified Kodi>


----------



## krandall

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Lol I am loving the '**** said "yes". SHE said "yes." Reminds me of when Flo had her first season; the day before I was aware she was coming into heat we were at the park and her good friend Teddy the Coton de Tulear, said "yes" but Flo shot him a disgusted look, promptly sat down and snapped him and definitely said "NO!":argue:
> 
> Am also smiling at the thought of Panda coquettishly waggling her bottom in front of a terrified Kodi>


The bigger problem is that Kodi WASN'T the least bit terrified! Even though he was neutered at 7 months (in the days before we knew the dangers of early spay/neuter) he has managed to tie with BOTH of my girls through the years. Since his shoulder injury, though, I do NOT want him playing mounting games. So it is very much a tease to him!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

krandall said:


> The bigger problem is that Kodi WASN'T the least bit terrified! Even though he was neutered at 7 months (in the days before we knew the dangers of early spay/neuter) he has managed to tie with BOTH of my girls through the years. Since his shoulder injury, though, I do NOT want him playing mounting games. So it is very much a tease to him!


Oh wow now THAT is impressive...I didn't know they could do that once they've had the chop!

Having said that, it's never stopped our buck rabbit trying it on with our doe. He's obviously a 'glass half full' kind of bunny, as they've both been neutered plus she hasn't let him near her for 3 years...but it doesn't stop him trying.

Top prize to Kodi for being 'optimistic' too:first: Although I hope he behaves himself for you and doesn't hurt his shoulder again! X


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> Even though he was neutered at 7 months (in the days before we knew the dangers of early spay/neuter) he has managed to tie with BOTH of my girls through the years.





GoWithTheFlo said:


> Oh wow now THAT is impressive...I didn't know they could do that once they've had the chop!


I have a question. Should a neutered male dog be discouraged from mounting neighborhood, spayed females OR should he be ignored as long as both dogs are agreeable? Over 90% of dogs are spayed/neutered in California, it is the law here. (I am asking for a friend who owns a precocious, neutered Havanese male with way too much libido.)

Ricky's Popi


----------



## krandall

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Oh wow now THAT is impressive...I didn't know they could do that once they've had the chop!
> 
> Having said that, it's never stopped our buck rabbit trying it on with our doe. He's obviously a 'glass half full' kind of bunny, as they've both been neutered plus she hasn't let him near her for 3 years...but it doesn't stop him trying.
> 
> Top prize to Kodi for being 'optimistic' too:first: Although I hope he behaves himself for you and doesn't hurt his shoulder again! X


When she gets randy, I do keep them separated. I really don't want that stuff going on unsupervised! LOL!


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I have a question. Should a neutered male dog be discouraged from mounting neighborhood, spayed females OR should he be ignored as long as both dogs are agreeable? Over 90% of dogs are spayed/neutered in California, it is the law here. (I am asking for a friend who owns a precocious, neutered Havanese male with way too much libido.)
> 
> Ricky's Popi


A spayed female is NOT going to let a male penetrate her. So it's all just a game. If she's letting him do it, she's enjoying it. (or at least tolerating it) If she telling him not to, and he doesn't take no for an answer, (or if the owner of the girl doesn't like it)you should probably stop it.

Even a female in heat will not let a male penetrate her until she's "ready". It drives the boy dog kind of crazy, because for a number of days, she SMELLS good, she flirts, pushes her rear end in his face, flags for him, even humps HIM... but woe unto HIM if he tries to mount HER!!! It's got to be on HER terms! LOL! She calls the shots!

The "rules" about humping that is not about "making babies" are really pretty much up to the individual pet owner. _MY_ rules are:

1. Not in large play groups - it tends to get everyone riled up and can lead to fights.
2. Not if the other owner or dog is uncomfortable with it.
3. NEVER on human body parts
4. A special rule for Kodi - Not on his donut beds - his "rough sex" has "killed" too many expensive beds!
5. NEVER ON *MY* BED, *ESPECIALLY* when I'm in it!!! ound:

YMMV


----------



## krandall

Progesterone test this morning... 9.5, so she probably ovulated today. So breeding her yesterday afternoon was perfect. We will go ahead as planned with tomorrow and Sunday. They will provide me with a schedule of when I should bring her back for her ultrasound, and expected due date! (which is based on ovulation, NOT on date of breeding) So, everyone cross fingers now!!!

And think up a bunch of Easter-ish "litter names"


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> And think up a bunch of Easter-ish "litter names"


Peter, Cotton Tail, Eggo, Rabbit, Chick, Lambchop, Pascual, Hopper, Easter Basket, Bunny, Cupcake, Jelly Bean, Cadbury, Candy, Flopsy, Mopsy, Peeps, Nibbles, Doodles, Marshmallow, Sugar Cakes, Carrot, Thumper, Fuzzy, aaaaaaaaaaaaand, Sir Poops Alot

Now.............tells us what your Breeder Name is going to be - Familia Havanese, Havadog Havanese, HavaMassa Kennels, Kodi Kennels, etc.?

Ricky's Popi


----------



## Heather's

This is fun...Petunia, Poppy, Lily, Daisy, Violet, Tulip, April, Sugar, Angel, Robin, Hunter, Hopper. 🐣


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Peter, Cotton Tail, Eggo, Rabbit, Chick, Lambchop, Pascual, Hopper, Easter Basket, Bunny, Cupcake, Jelly Bean, Cadbury, Candy, Flopsy, Mopsy, Peeps, Nibbles, Doodles, Marshmallow, Sugar Cakes, Carrot, Thumper, Fuzzy, aaaaaaaaaaaaand, Sir Poops Alot
> 
> Now.............tells us what your Breeder Name is going to be - Familia Havanese, Havadog Havanese, HavaMassa Kennels, Kodi Kennels, etc.?
> 
> Ricky's Popi


Oh, Those are GREAT!!! (other than Poops Alot! LOL!) I LOVE Cadbury! THAT might have to be reserved for my "keeper" if it's a boy! 

Kennel name is High Jump Havanese as a nod to the obedience high jump. And my Kodi boy. The lead photo on my not-finished website is this one. <3

(and a website is probably over-kill considering that this may VERY well be my only litter! LOL! But I'm having fun with it!)


----------



## krandall

Heather's said:


> This is fun...Petunia, Poppy, Lily, Daisy, Violet, Tulip, April, Sugar, Angel, Robin, Hunter, Hopper. &#55357;&#56355;


Great ones! Panda's gonna need to make a LOT of puppies!!!


----------



## Wulfin

krandall said:


> 5. NEVER ON *MY* BED, *ESPECIALLY* when I'm in it!!! ound:


Am I the only one that laughs because this must have happened for the rule to be created??


----------



## MJB

What a wonderful journey, look forward to updates. Panda is beautiful, wishing y’all luck. If I bred Chérie, I could never part with any of her babies, we’d have a house full of pups. 😊


----------



## krandall

Wulfin said:


> Am I the only one that laughs because this must have happened for the rule to be created??


Got nuthin'...


----------



## lindam

Congrats on this big decision @krandall I'm pretty new here but with your wealth of knowledge I had originally thought you WERE already a breeder. You will do great!

If you need website help, please feel free to message me. I do mostly email programming but have experience with websites, too.

P.S. WE WANT PANDA CAM! &#128578; &#128578;


----------



## krandall

lindam said:


> Congrats on this big decision @krandall I'm pretty new here but with your wealth of knowledge I had originally thought you WERE already a breeder. You will do great!
> 
> If you need website help, please feel free to message me. I do mostly email programming but have experience with websites, too.
> 
> P.S. WE WANT PANDA CAM! &#128578; &#128578;


Thanks! Fortunately I've built a few websites myself for other business ventures. I could never do it from the ground up, but Squarespace makes it pretty easy!  It's mostly designed... it's stuff that needs to be written, that I'd need to do no matter who built the website! 

... and a little bit of worry. I've been told by other breeders that right now, because of Covid, the moment you have a website, you start getting puppy inquiries. I have ONE bitch, who will have ONE litter. She may have between 3-6 puppies. I am keeping one, and I have two, possibly 3 people who have already expressed an interest because they heard, via friends that I MIGHT breed Panda way back in the fall. And if she's pregnant at all yet, it is JUST BARELY! LOL! There are not going to be many puppies up for grabs... 

That's why the website has been on a slow roll.


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

I love reading all these posts. Karen, I did get one question answered that I was going to ask. I was wondering if the female actually wanted to or got any pleasure out of it or if it was just the male. Just curious........why were you down on the floor with them?

Are you sure you will stop with only one litter? Didn't you decide not to have a 3rd dog before Panda came along?


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

krandall said:


> Thanks! Fortunately I've built a few websites myself for other business ventures. I could never do it from the ground up, but Squarespace makes it pretty easy!  It's mostly designed... it's stuff that needs to be written, that I'd need to do no matter who built the website!
> 
> ... and a little bit of worry. I've been told by other breeders that right now, because of Covid, the moment you have a website, you start getting puppy inquiries. I have ONE bitch, who will have ONE litter. She may have between 3-6 puppies. I am keeping one, and I have two, possibly 3 people who have already expressed an interest because they heard, via friends that I MIGHT breed Panda way back in the fall. And if she's pregnant at all yet, it is JUST BARELY! LOL! There are not going to be many puppies up for grabs...
> 
> That's why the website has been on a slow roll.


Okay, please don't feel this as added pressure, because I know what you're embarking on is already a huge commitment. But, something that is so lacking in media, are opportunities for people to see the process of breeding and getting a puppy from a reputable breeder, and what it actually looks like. Although it will be a lot of fun for me to follow here, and I understand it would mean filtering through a lot of requests when people do miss the point, I think the world would love a website like Panda'a Journal right now. I know most breeder websites are more geared towards documentation of their lines, etc. but since you aren't sure of the future, another great reason to make it a combination of both. If you are in a position to do it, especially since you do have enough technical skill, you're a photographer, and your writing style is entertaining and educational, I know I would be a devoted follower  It would be such a good thing for people to see you, as an experienced Havanese owner and handler, with experiences with other Havanese breeders, AND with your experiences with horses as well, still choose to approach breeding thoughtfully and cautiously. But as long as you share puppy videos, I'll watch them wherever you post them


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

This thread has answered questions I didn’t know I had! I truly had never even considered some of it, I sort of imagined the stud dog would just come to visit for a few weeks and they would hang out in a fenced yard together every day.


----------



## krandall

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Okay, please don't feel this as added pressure, because I know what you're embarking on is already a huge commitment. But, something that is so lacking in media, are opportunities for people to see the process of breeding and getting a puppy from a reputable breeder, and what it actually looks like. Although it will be a lot of fun for me to follow here, and I understand it would mean filtering through a lot of requests when people do miss the point, I think the world would love a website like Panda'a Journal right now. I know most breeder websites are more geared towards documentation of their lines, etc. but since you aren't sure of the future, another great reason to make it a combination of both. If you are in a position to do it, especially since you do have enough technical skill, you're a photographer, and your writing style is entertaining and educational, I know I would be a devoted follower  It would be such a good thing for people to see you, as an experienced Havanese owner and handler, with experiences with other Havanese breeders, AND with your experiences with horses as well, still choose to approach breeding thoughtfully and cautiously. But as long as you share puppy videos, I'll watch them wherever you post them


I'll THINK about it. But I'm not sure I want to put all of this on the website! LOL! And certainly not photos of THIS part! Even _I'M_ not taking photos of this part. THAT seems REALLY voyeuristic! LOL!


----------



## krandall

They had a nice visit again this afternoon. He pounced on her the minute she got inside the door! LOL! Which was fine with her... She has been driving Kodi and Pixel CRAZY!!! But he was clearly just humping and bumping and she got aggravated and chased him off. That happened a number more times. It seems they both need more foreplay. Part of it may be that they are both pretty inexperienced. This is her first breeding, and only his second. And as far as ties go, he's only one ahead of her!  She seems to get irritated with him when he mounts her and he's not "ready for action".

But after a lot of running around and playing, and then a break, where they wandered around separately, catching their breath, he mounted her again. She LOOKED like she wasn't too enthusiastic, and we weren't sure what was going on, and suddenly we realized they were tied! It was a good long tie this time; almost 12 minutes. Afterwards, they played a bit, and then we packed up for home. We'll give them another chance on Sunday!

According to Linda, the breeder of the stud dog (and a vet) the fact that we got the early tie bodes well for a girl-heavy litter. We'll see if that holds true! She has crashed now and is leaving Kodi alone, so THAT'S good! LOL!


----------



## krandall

Oh... And did a bit more shopping today. Got a space heater for the nursery... Little puppies need to be kept really worm. Also ordered a couple of new litter boxes from Amazon to try:

Sorry! Something went wrong!

They arrived, and I like them! These definitely have more room for pellets than the other one that I had ordered, in case anyone is interested!


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> And certainly not photos of THIS part! Even _I'M_ not taking photos of this part. THAT seems REALLY voyeuristic! LOL!


DARN! :fear:



krandall said:


> They had a nice visit again this afternoon. He pounced on her the minute she got inside the door!



:lalala:
:nono:

Ricky's Popi


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

krandall said:


> I'll THINK about it. But I'm not sure I want to put all of this on the website! LOL! And certainly not photos of THIS part! Even _I'M_ not taking photos of this part. THAT seems REALLY voyeuristic! LOL!


Yes, haha, I have to agree with that!


----------



## Melissa Woods

Wow, this is such a cool thread! I haven't been around in a while, working on book promo and getting more stuff to my agent...this is so fun!


----------



## itsgooby

Congratulations on the consumation!! Thank you for taking us on this journey, Karen!


----------



## krandall

And honeymoon tryst #3 has been completed in the midst of a Nor'easter. The car actually slid off the road and into a snowbank as we turned into our driveway. Fortunately, I was only going about 4 MPH at the time, so no harm was done, but it was sheer ice under the snow. I was able to just back out of the snowbank and go down the driveway!

Now it's time to just wait and grow puppies! (And Panda is DEFINITELY getting a BATH this afternoon! LOL!)


----------



## krandall

And, P.S., Ricky's Popi... This is as close as you get... LOL!


----------



## Molly120213

The snow looks so pretty when you don’t have to drive in it! Can’t wait until the pregnancy confirmation comes in!


----------



## krandall

Me too!!!


----------



## 31818

My tongue would be hanging out too!

Ricky's Popi


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

krandall said:


> And honeymoon tryst #3 has been completed in the midst of a Nor'easter. The car actually slid off the road and into a snowbank as we turned into our driveway. Fortunately, I was only going about 4 MPH at the time, so no harm was done, but it was sheer ice under the snow. I was able to just back out of the snowbank and go down the driveway!
> 
> Now it's time to just wait and grow puppies! (And Panda is DEFINITELY getting a BATH this afternoon! LOL!)


Oh my goodness...I thought that was a picture of honeymoon tryst #3 when I first looked at it:redface: :wink2: Ricky's Popi I blame you for making me think of this:grin2::grin2:

Beautiful pictures thank you for sharing and glad you are all safe after your little snow/ice adventure!


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> My tongue would be hanging out too!
> 
> Ricky's Popi


LOL!


----------



## stephsu

Aw, I am so happy for you!! I so rarely come on here lately as I find that this site is difficult on a phone rather than a computer. Looking forward to following along!!!


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

Ricky Ricardo said:


> My tongue would be hanging out too!
> 
> Ricky's Popi


I was going to say he looks awfully tired!


----------



## pgraham

Congratulations! Looking forward to following along on this exciting adventure for you and Panda!


----------



## krandall

Jackie from Concrete said:


> I was going to say he looks awfully tired!


Just satisfied.  In the "old days" he'd be enjoying a smoke.


----------



## krandall

Melissa Woods said:


> Wow, this is such a cool thread! I haven't been around in a while, working on book promo and getting more stuff to my agent...this is so fun!


Wait... Who is the little guy at the bottom of your post?!?!


----------



## krandall

OK, it's not completely finished... I have a feeling this is one of those things I'll ALWAYS be adding things to. But I'm finished ENOUGH that I flipped the switch on my new website if anyone cares to look it over and try to break it for me! Don't bother with the Instagram link... I don't know how to use Instagram very well and can't figure out how to switch between the "me" account and the "Havanese" account. I may need a tutorial from Shamamama!!!

Anything you see that needs fixing, please PM me, so it goes to my email, rather than cluttering up the forum!

Anyway, the new website is: www.highjumphavanese.net

Oh, and Panda says she wants you to know that her whelping box is all set up, and she thinks it is pretty fine!


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> Anyway, the new website is: www.highjumphavanese.net


I can see a LOT of work went into this website. I







all the eye candy!


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I can see a LOT of work went into this website. I
> View attachment 173664
> all the eye candy!


 Well, you know I love taking pictures... and it was hard to decide...


----------



## 31818

I had to think long and hard to make even one suggestion, your site is so well done. how about putting some links to your favorite sites - HCA?, Kikopup?, HF? Maybe it's there but I just missed it, there is so much to see. Good job!


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

It’s beautiful, Karen! I’m so happy for you! It was so much fun to read, and you are such a great source of information. I love the way you explain your recommendations and explain why certain things are important. And such great pictures!


----------



## Wulfin

So, I found this website and saw you breed puppies. Can I get one for next week? I want a black girl please. How much?


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

Hahaha


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I had to think long and hard to make even one suggestion, your site is so well done. how about putting some links to your favorite sites - HCA?, Kikopup?, HF? Maybe it's there but I just missed it, there is so much to see. Good job!


It IS a good idea, and I fully intend to have a “resources” page... just haven’t gotten there yet. As you said, it’s already been a lot of work. I also want to have:

list of things for people to buy before they bring the puppy home
potty training tutorial
socialization and acclimation during Covid
more specifics on various sports
?


----------



## krandall

Wulfin said:


> So, I found this website and saw you breed puppies. Can I get one for next week? I want a black girl please. How much?


LOL!


----------



## Sheri

What a nice website, Karen, and I (also) loved all your photos! I've enjoyed just sitting here going through those. 

Congratulations to you and Panda on the developing "Blobs!"


----------



## BoosDad

Congratulations to Panda!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

Ah this is fantastic news cannot believe Panda has got FIVE in there - congratulations you must be thrilled! I had no idea she would only be pregnant for 63 days😳😳😳😳 Looking forward to seeing pictures of a beautiful big fat Panda😍 xx


----------



## krandall

Sheri said:


> What a nice website, Karen, and I (also) loved all your photos! I've enjoyed just sitting here going through those.
> 
> Congratulations to you and Panda on the developing "Blobs!"


Thanks! It was a lot of work (and I'm still working on it!) but it has also been a lot of fun!


----------



## LeleRF

Such happy news! Is it to early to say they are all beauties 😉🥰


----------



## krandall

LeleRF said:


> Such happy news! Is it to early to say they are all beauties 😉🥰


LOL! I HOPE they are!!! If they come out with three eyes or five legs I'll be worried! LOL!


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

Is 5 about average for a Havanese littler? I wonder what the record is??!


----------



## morriscsps

krandall said:


> If they come out with three eyes or five legs I'll be worried! LOL!


Oh dear... You are setting yourself up for monster names. The Blob, Dracula, Godzilla, Mothra, Bride of Frankenstein... um... Mortricia Addams.


----------



## krandall

morriscsps said:


> Oh dear... You are setting yourself up for monster names. The Blob, Dracula, Godzilla, Mothra, Bride of Frankenstein... um... Mortricia Addams.





Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> Is 5 about average for a Havanese littler? I wonder what the record is??!


I think four or five is pretty average. The biggest Havanese litter _I’ve_ heard of was the litter Panda came from. (Which is why it was called the “herd” litter. ELEVEN puppies!!!) Unfortunately, only 9 survived, but I’ve never heard even of another litter of nine. Maybe Tom King can tell what he knows!


----------



## Ditto's Mom

Five little beauties, how exciting!


----------



## krandall

OK, Maybe I'm being silly, but... can you blame me? I had to buy matting for the puppy nursery floor. I was first looking at utilitarian interlocking foam tiles, or rolled rubber matting, and then... How could I NOT?!?!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

It’s perfect 👌😁


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

krandall said:


> OK, Maybe I'm being silly, but... can you blame me? I had to buy matting for the puppy nursery floor. I was first looking at utilitarian interlocking foam tiles, or rolled rubber matting, and then... How could I NOT?!?!
> View attachment 173805


I was looking for some tiles a while ago for the concrete floors where I stand in front of the counters in my basement and garage. Apparently a lot of people used covid to get healthy and build home gyms so for a while they were all sold out or on back order! I came across foam baby mats that are supposed to look like nursery rugs, and they are so cute! They have sort of a soft finish that’s way better than regular foam tiles. But NONE are as cute as Panda and a Panda mat, with baby Panda’s at a Panda park. I mean, I don’t think anything could be more perfect in the history of baby (puppy) mats!


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

GoWithTheFlo said:


> It’s perfect 👌😁



I was going to say the exact same thing! So perfect for Panda!


----------



## krandall

The belly is getting rounder...









And it has reached a point that Miss Panda has decided it’s just too hard to jump up on the bed now. It’s funny. Last night she could get up, but I could tell it was an effort, and tonight she just sat there and asked for help. So... I put a chest at the end of the bed with a non-slip mat, and we had “on and off” practice with cookies. Kodi did too, in hopes that he will use it. It would be GREAT if he’ll use it, and I could stop having to keep him on a leash on the bed! We’ll see. But SHE seems to be quite happy with it. Always practical, those girls! LOL!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

I’ve been wondering how Panda’s little tummy is coming along! Love her round little belly 💕 And the pregnancy step too😁xx


----------



## LeleRF

Ahhh, the puppy bump! I’m sure she appreciates that nice ‘leg up’. It’s fortunate you have that chest that’s such a good in-between height too. 👌


----------



## krandall

LeleRF said:


> Ahhh, the puppy bump! I’m sure she appreciates that nice ‘leg up’. It’s fortunate you have that chest that’s such a good in-between height too. 👌


I was trying to think of what I could use, then remembered that we had these, that Dave stores his out-of-season clothes in!


----------



## Mikki

I'm late for the Opening. Wonderful Web Site. Lots of work. Didn't realize the Panda was already pregnant. 

🎉Congrats!!!! 🎊 I know they'll be beautiful healthy puppies. The Hard Work and Fun Begins.


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> The belly is getting rounder...


I figure *** is about 2 weeks pregnant now. If gestation is about 60 days then *** is about 25% of full term. Out of curiosity, how many pounds has she put on over those last two weeks? I imagine she will put weight on more rapidly as she gets closer to full term.

BTW, I love your green area rug.


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I figure _ is about 2 weeks pregnant now. If gestation is about 60 days then _ is about 25% of full term. Out of curiosity, how many pounds has she put on over those last two weeks? I imagine she will put weight on more rapidly as she gets closer to full term.
> 
> BTW, I love your green area rug.


LOL! Your count is off! She is about 5 weeks in (more or less) due 3 weeks from today (More or less). she has gained about 1 3/4 lb so far, and we are into the stretch where she will start to get REALLY round.

She had a BIT of discharge today, so as a first time “puppy mom”, of course I called the repro vet. They said it is PROBABLY nothing, but in an abundance of caution, they are having me bring her in tomorrow morning for another ultrasound, just to make sure everyone is fine in there. I talked to another breeder friend this afternoon, (after talking to the vet) and she said that a little discharge is completely normal. Oh well! Better safe than sorry!


----------



## krandall

Oh, and thanks! I love my rug too! It’s older than I am, and belonged to my great aunt, who was a very important person in my life! ❤


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

How did that time go by so fast??


----------



## Heather's

Congratulations Mama Panda!!! 🎉🎉 🎊 How exciting to be expecting five little blobs! I've totally missed Panda's puppy journal! I'm still figuring out this new website. Your website and photos are just perfect Karen.


----------



## Mikki

Last night I told Patti I'd learned it only took about 62 days to make it her. She was Shocked!


----------



## krandall

Heather's said:


> Congratulations Mama Panda!!! 🎉🎉 🎊 How exciting to be expecting five little blobs! I've totally missed Panda's puppy journal! I'm still figuring out this new website. Your website and photos are just perfect Karen.


Thanks!!! I agree, I like this new forum, but I’m still figuring it out, and find that I miss things!


----------



## krandall

Mikki said:


> Last night I told Patti I'd learned it only took about 62 days to make it her. She was Shocked!


LOL! Tell her that when you include all the planning, and waiting for the girl to come into heat and strain on human nerves, it seems MUCH longer!!!


----------



## krandall

Well, a little sad news with the fun news, but I said I'd take you on the whole journey, so... After Panda's discharge yesterday, (which has stopped) I took her in for an ultrasound and check up this morning. Good news is that she was able to see 4 big, healthy, squirmy puppies, looking and doing exactly what they should. Bad news is that there was a 5th "shadow" with no heartbeat. 😢 So it is likely that a puppy has died and is being resorbed. That is NOT uncommon, and many people may not have even noticed, particularly if they didn't have a long haired white dog. Even then, a discharge is not completely uncommon, and doesn't necessarily mean trouble. Without the ultrasound we wouldn't have known the exact puppy count until the pre-whelp X-ray. For that matter, we STILL don't know for sure how many, because the vet said that at this point, they are big enough that they can hide each other on the ultrasound. They also pulled a progesterone level to make sure her levels are high enough to support the pregnancy, which they are. So the loss of the puppy is just "one of those things". It is not due to anything wrong with the pregnancy itself.

They put her on antibiotics, just to make sure that she doesn't get an infection and to make sure that no infection affects the other puppies. Both things would be unlikely anyway, it is pretty common for a bitch to resorbed one or even more puppies. But since we KNOW it's going on, this keeps everyone safer. I am to bring her back in a week for another ultrasound and progesterone, just to make sure that everything is still on track.

So... Four healthy puppies is good news, I know. But I can't help but be a LITTLE sad over the little one who won't be joining us!


----------



## Heather's

I'm sorry about the little puppy. 😢 Like you mentioned you may never have known if you were not an observant and concerned Mom. Wouldn't that be something if they found a surprise puppy when Panda has her x-ray. Good to hear her four little chubby puppies are doing well.


----------



## mudpuppymama

Sorry to hear about the loss of one of the puppies. However, glad to hear things are going well and there are at least four healthy ones!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

That is sad news about puppy number five Karen😞.

A bit like Covid I suppose it shows that as much as us humans like to think we can control or predict things i.e. few of us would have believed how 2020 would turn out back in December 2019, and likewise with Panda’s five puppies thinking that everything would go to plan as she is a healthy girl with *the best* possible owners who have done *everything *right; nature can always unexpectedly remind us we are at it’s mercy.

Four healthy puppies and a safe Panda is still a wonderful outcome and will be a time of celebration when they arrive🐼🐾 xx


----------



## Mikki

Oh! Karen that's so sad. 

I'm glad Panda is OK and another little one maybe hiding. The little one that didn't make it may have been unhealthy and nature was taking care of things.


----------



## Sheri

It is sad to hear of the loss of one of the puppies. It helps to know that this isn't uncommon, though, and that it doesn't apparently point a finger at possible problems with the other 4. Hugs to you.


----------



## krandall

Sheri said:


> It is sad to hear of the loss of one of the puppies. It helps to know that this isn't uncommon, though, and that it doesn't apparently point a finger at possible problems with the other 4. Hugs to you.


Thanks. ❤ I talked to another friend who is a vet, and she’s not convinced that she’s lost a puppy. She said it is REALLy hard to accurately read an ultrasound at this stage because the puppies are big and pushed together. She said a discharge at this stage is not unusual at all. (which the repro vet told me before she saw Panda too) So I guess we’ll just have to wait and see. I’d rather the repro vet be pro-active in protecting Panda and the other puppies in CASE there’s a problem, so I guess it’s OK anyway. The antibiotics aren’t going to hurt her or the puppies!


----------



## LeleRF

Karen, I just read up on all the latest with your post on Panda’s ultrasound today and wanted to echo the supportive and very touching sentiments of everyone here. 💗 It surely is a wait and see, and as Claire expressed so beautifully you can feel reassured that you truly are doing all the right things by her and continue to be the BEST ‘mom’ to Panda and her pups (wait, does that make you a grammy to the pups 😉). Thank you for posting the updates as I can see many like myself are invested in this journey with you.

I’ve not been on the forum very long but I am already quite caught up in all the happenings in such a short time. It’s for sure the result of the care and compassion that’s palpable amongst this group. 🥰


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

Thank you for keeping us educated and informed. I hope she didn't lose a puppy but it's good to know it's not uncommon. What is the due date? I know it's around Easter, but don't know if you were given an exact (approx.) date.


----------



## Molly120213

Wishing Panda an easy and uneventful last few weeks of her pregnancy. Can’t wait for those puppies to come!


----------



## krandall

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> Thank you for keeping us educated and informed. I hope she didn't lose a puppy but it's good to know it's not uncommon. What is the due date? I know it's around Easter, but don't know if you were given an exact (approx.) date.


Projected due dates are April 5th-7th. One interesting thing that people may not know is that this is based on ovulation date and has nothing to the dates that she was bred.


----------



## Melissa Brill

Glad Panda is doing well. Love the updates!


----------



## Ditto's Mom

Looking forward to beautiful Panda puppies. Rest easy new puppy Mom you're going to be a busy little bee taking care of your offspring. Hugs from Me & Phoenix


----------



## Milo's Mom

Karen,
I am so happy for you. What an exciting time! Your website is wonderful! I look forward to following this wonderful journey. 
Joyce


----------



## krandall

Milo's Mom said:


> Karen,
> I am so happy for you. What an exciting time! Your website is wonderful! I look forward to following this wonderful journey.
> Joyce


Thanks!


----------



## Mikki

krandall said:


> Projected due dates are April 5th-7th. One interesting thing that people may not know is that this is based on ovulation date and has nothing to the dates that she was bred.



Hummmm!  So dogs ovulate when pregnant? And it doesn't matter when she became pregnant? I know I don't know a lot but I definitely would fail a Guessing Test on pregnant dogs and how things works.

How often do dogs ovulate?


----------



## krandall

Mikki said:


> Hummmm!  So dogs ovulate when pregnant? And it doesn't matter when she became pregnant? I know I don't know a lot but I definitely would failed a Guessing Test on pregnant dogs and how things works.
> 
> How often do dogs ovulate?


No, they don’t ovulate when they are pregnant. But the sperm stays in her reproductive tract, and viable, for a while. It also takes a while for the eggs to move down to where it can be fertilized after she ovulates. As a result, the dates when the dogs mate are not that important in figuring the due date. In natural breedings, you typically try for two or three ties, just to maximize the amount of time there is viable sperm around to contact the eggs. But if it is an artificial insemination, especially if it is done surgically, they want to get the timing as close to “perfect” as possible, so they only need to do it once.

In Panda’s case, it was natural, with one tie (barely) before her ovulation date, and two after. So there was viable sperm there for those eggs any time they wanted to find them! LOL!

If you don’t do progesterone testing, it can be a little more guess work in terms of when the puppies are due. Very experienced breeders get very good at figuring that out. For someone like me, who is just starting, doing the progesterone testing (which you need to do for AI) meant that I don’t have to worry about where she is in her pregnancy. Pregnancies are rarely very far off from 63 days IF you get the ovulation day right.


----------



## Mama Mills

Im so happy to hear that Panda is expecting pups!! I’ve been absent for a short while and I can’t believe she’s already nearing the final stretch, so very exciting !!


----------



## krandall

Mama Mills said:


> Im so happy to hear that Panda is expecting pups!! I’ve been absent for a short while and I can’t believe she’s already nearing the final stretch, so very exciting !!


Thanks! I was thinking about you earlier today, and wondering how you were!


----------



## Mama Mills

krandall said:


> Thanks! I was thinking about you earlier today, and wondering how you were!


Thanks Karen, I often think of you and panda too! We are doing really well, buried under a good bit of snow but still feeling the magic of spring creepin in. Ernie is getting his big boy teeth and I actually found a very loose tooth in his mouth this morning when I was checking out his pearly whites, took me by surprise!
This new web design is throwing me for a loop! For weeks it wouldn’t even load on my phone, still figuring it out but happy to be back.


----------



## krandall

Mama Mills said:


> Thanks Karen, I often think of you and panda too! We are doing really well, buried under a good bit of snow but still feeling the magic of spring creepin in. Ernie is getting his big boy teeth and I actually found a very loose tooth in his mouth this morning when I was checking out his pearly whites, took me by surprise!
> This new web design is throwing me for a loop! For weeks it wouldn’t even load on my phone, still figuring it out but happy to be back.


It's fun finding the baby teeth! I never found any of Kodi's, but I have a couple from each of the girls that I kept!

You still have a lot of snow?!?! THAT would be depressing! We have a BIT in corners on the north side of buildings, and in piles in parking lots, but it's mostly gone. The crocus are all up, and even the tulips are just BARELY peeking through the ground.

And yes, the new forum design has taken a little getting used to, but overall, once you get the hang of it, it is SOOOO much better!!!


----------



## Dexter and Reia’s mom

Karen, thank you so much for allowing us the opportunity to learn more about the breeding process. Not just the technical details, but the emotional part as well. I, too, am having trouble navigating the new site, but am slowly figuring it out. Love your Panda puppy journal❤ And your website! You are such a great dog momma! I appreciate everything I’ve learned from you😊


----------



## morriscsps

Just checking in on Fezzik's future half-siblings. 😁 
Fezzik's hair has grown back in. He definitely is a tricolor or a Black & Tan Parti if you want to be technical. The undersides of his ears, eyebrows and one spot under his left eye are He-be's color. So cute!! Just a hint of brown. I know that you have told us but I can't remember. Does Panda have a chance of having the chocolate gene?


----------



## krandall

morriscsps said:


> Just checking in on Fezzik's future half-siblings. 😁
> Fezzik's hair has grown back in. He definitely is a tricolor or a Black & Tan Parti if you want to be technical. The undersides of his ears, eyebrows and one spot under his left eye are He-be's color. So cute!! Just a hint of brown. I know that you have told us but I can't remember. Does Panda have a chance of having the chocolate gene?


Nope, not as far as I know...I have not done genetic color testing on her, but unless it has stayed hidden for more than 5 generation... POSSIBLE but pretty unlikely, there's no chocolate there. I think it's most likely that these will be B&W, sable or POSSIBLY Tri puppies!


----------



## krandall

I haven't done an update in a few days because I've been so busy with Nora's litter, but Panda had her ultrasound and check-up on Tues. and everything is looking good! Puppies are growing and looking great! Here are some "puppy parts! They are so big at this point that that is all you can see now... you can't even get one whole puppy on the ultra sound.

The repro vet said she saw no "fluid" or any more signs of resorbsion, but at this point, it is also impossible to count puppies. So we are back to... we have no idea how many puppies she has... 4... or 5. We just have to wait for her X-ray to find out.

Here you can clearly see a little spine:









This is the heart toward the front, and I think she said kidney (maybe?) behind it. I'm sure she pointed to the front blob and said heart. ...This is hard when you are standing in the parking lot! LOL!









And here they were measuring the heart rate of one of the babies... which was absolutely normal!


----------



## Tere

How exciting this is!
Not sure how I missed it all. I remembered that Panda was trying but no idea that it was a success! This new forum is all messed up on my screen, I must keep watching now!


----------



## krandall

Fun development! We can feel the puppies moving inn Panda’s tummy! Poor girlie, it feels like she’s having a puppy play date in there! LOL!


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

How exciting! I figured out what the spine was but that's about all I can see. I first I thought I saw a fully developed puppy head, but obviously I don't know what I'm looking at!


----------



## ShamaMama

I don't think I'll be going back to the very beginning of this thread. Can you please post the link to your website here? Very exciting!

💚💛🧡💜💙


----------



## krandall

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> How exciting! I figured out what the spine was but that's about all I can see. I first I thought I saw a fully developed puppy head, but obviously I don't know what I'm looking at!


Don’t feel bad... I couldn’t either... except for the spine, I onlt know what the other things are because the vet pointed them out to me! LOL!


----------



## krandall

ShamaMama said:


> I don't think I'll be going back to the very beginning of this thread. Can you please post the link to your website here? Very exciting!
> 
> 💚💛🧡💜💙


www.highjumphavanese.net

But I haven’t been posting the intimate updates there that I have for my friends hear. There ARE tons of photos of my crew though... most of which I’ve shared here over the years, but now all in one place.


----------



## ShamaMama

OK, I'll still go back and read this whole thread then. I just looked at PART of your website ... oh my! A labor of love! How many people do you already have in line for those puppies? Looking forward to seeing you at the play date at noon Central today. (Not too late for others to PM - conversation - me to get the link ...)

💚💛🧡💜💙


----------



## krandall

ShamaMama said:


> OK, I'll still go back and read this whole thread then. I just looked at PART of your website ... oh my! A labor of love! How many people do you already have in line for those puppies? Looking forward to seeing you at the play date at noon Central today. (Not too late for others to PM - conversation - me to get the link ...)
> 
> 💚💛🧡💜💙


I don't remember the exact count, but more than I have puppies for. That's OK. Some people will change their minds. (One, the person who has been at the top of my list for over a year, has had to do that for health reasons) others will not be suitable for other reasons. One I passed back to my friend Elinor when a puppy opened up in her litter. Waiting lists tend to be fluid, as we've seen here on the forum. Until I take deposits, there is no commitment on either side.


----------



## krandall

Panda sez, "Oh! The indignity!!!" This is what happened this morning... Daddy held her on her back (while shoveling cookies into her mouth, so it wasn't ALL bad...) while Mommy shaved her belly!


----------



## 31818

Reminds me of RICKY's 'PlayDoggie' magazine subscription.


----------



## Heather's

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Reminds me of RICKY's 'PlayDoggie' magazine subscription.


----------



## LeleRF

krandall said:


> Fun development! We can feel the puppies moving inn Panda’s tummy! Poor girlie, it feels like she’shavinga puppy play date in there! LOL!


Oh goodness, how exciting! 👏 I can’t even imagine what a bunch of squiggly little pups must feel like in there!


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Reminds me of RICKY's 'PlayDoggie' magazine subscription.


😍Shame on you Ricky!


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Reminds me of RICKY's 'PlayDoggie' magazine subscription.


LOL!


----------



## Melissa Woods

WOW this is so exciting! I haven't been around much and have missed so much


----------



## krandall

Oh, the indignity! If it’s not bad enough to be yay pregnant, she feels that I need a bath, blow dry and Pedi?!?! what is WRONG with this woman?!? Next she’s gonna buy me a frilly negligee!


----------



## Sheri

Are you down to about 5 days now, before puppies?


----------



## Heather's

Such a beautiful girl! 😍


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

I wish _I _had looked that good 5 days before giving birth😁🤣😘


----------



## krandall

Sheri said:


> Are you down to about 5 days now, before puppies?


The official due date window is MTW, but it seems many Havanese go early, so I am getting prepared in case she decides to pop this weekend. Her x-ray is this afternoon!


----------



## krandall

GoWithTheFlo said:


> I wish _I _had looked that good 5 days before giving birth😁🤣😘


The beautiful hair covers the watermelon shape! LOL!


----------



## Mando's Mommy

GoWithTheFlo said:


> I wish _I _had looked that good 5 days before giving birth😁🤣😘


Same here. 😂😘


----------



## krandall

Panda is back from her X-ray! This is the clearest X-ray _I've_ seen, so this shouldn't be TOO hard... But I'll still make you guess. How many puppies? (Tom... you be quiet.  )


----------



## stephsu

I think 5! So exciting!!


----------



## Ditto's Mom

I'm going to say 6 beauties. Can't wait!!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

Yay!!! I think I spy FIVE too🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉


----------



## Heather's

At first I thought it was five, but it looks like a little one is curled up on the left upper side. My guess is 6? 😲💜💙💚💛🧡💗


----------



## Heather's

I keep looking at this x-ray and it appears there possibly is another little head with eyes on the upper left??? Is it another puppy lying at a different angle? That would be 7!!! 😲 I'm sticking with 6 for sure, but I think there possibly could be one more!


----------



## 31818

I count four plus one squirrel! PANDA, PANDA, PANDA, what has gotten into you?





Karen no longer has a soccer team, but she has gained a basketball team! - Shaq, Kobe, Jordan, Kareem, and Magic.


----------



## LWalks

I have never tried to count puppies on an x-ray before, but looks like 5 little ones! Thanks for letting us all in on the process; it’s fascinating!


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I count four plus one squirrel! PANDA, PANDA, PANDA, what has gotten into you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Karen no longer has a soccer team, but she has gained a basketball team! - Shaq, Kobe, Jordan, Kareem, and Magic.


I LOVE it!!! WHERE did you find THAT!?!? 💗


----------



## LeleRF

This is just too exciting!!! 😝 My guess is 6! Btw, that is an amazing picture!


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> I LOVE it!!! WHERE did you find THAT!?!? 💗


I found it in RICKY's EXPEN-HOUSE magazine subscription. I only read it for the dog jokes. 😉


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I found it in RICKY's EXPEN-HOUSE magazine subscription. I only read it for the dog jokes. 😉


LOL!


----------



## ShamaMama

I see five little puppy heads! Very cool x-ray!

💚💛🧡💜💙


----------



## Tere

I must be stupid. I have no idea what to look for? But I am pretty excited for Panda and am totally amazed by how many puppies these tiny little dogs can have at once and in such a short amount of time!


----------



## 31818

Tere said:


> I must be an stupid. I have no idea what to look for? But I am pretty excited for Panda and am totally amazed by how many puppies these tiny little dogs can have at once and in such a short amount of time!


You know @Tere, HF is more than social media. It is also educational, scientific, and at times ironic comedy. You are not 'stupid', you are curious which is the opposite of stupid. There isn't a day go by that I don't learn something new about dogs in general and Havanese in particular. HF is a good way to spend your spare time with nice people, exercising your curiosity.

Regarding Panda's litter, I was present at both my daughters birth, so I am not a complete novice when it comes to deliveries. But I will have a lot of questions for @krandall a couple of days after whelping when things calm down a bit. I know nothing about the canine birth process and I am willing to show my ignorance with my questions. I can guarantee we will all learn something interesting.


----------



## Tere

Popi, I learn something new here everyday. I have never been present for any birth! I am so sure that I would not be cut out for it! Karen must have nerves of steel for this! And Poor Panda, birthing all those puppies.
I wish I knew what everyone is counting.


----------



## 31818

Tere said:


> I wish I knew what everyone is counting.


@Tere I am not a medical professional of any type and have absolutely no idea what I am talking about. But in my opinion, there are FIVE puppies ready to enter the chute. I have included the X-ray below and I have put a 'heart' on the skull of each puppy. The other stuff are spines and ribs. BUT I DON'T RECOGNIZE WHAT SOME OF THE OTHER 'BLOBS' ARE AND I WOULD NOT BE SHOCKED IF 6 WERE IN THE UTERUS. This is one question I will have for Karen, "how does she know when ALL puppies have been delivered?" It appears to me that the largest puppy will be one of the first delivered (the one on the right of the x-ray)that I would guess may or not be good news. What do you think?


----------



## Tere

Thanks for the explanation! Poor little Panda, that's a lot of puppies, 5,6 or 7!


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> @Tere I am not a medical professional of any type and have absolutely no idea what I am talking about. But in my opinion, there are FIVE puppies ready to enter the chute. I have included the X-ray below and I have put a 'heart' on the skull of each puppy. The other stuff are spines and ribs. BUT I DON'T RECOGNIZE WHAT SOME OF THE OTHER 'BLOBS' ARE AND I WOULD NOT BE SHOCKED IF 6 WERE IN THE UTERUS. This is one question I will have for Karen, "how does she know when ALL puppies have been delivered?" It appears to me that the largest puppy will be one of the first delivered (the one on the right of the x-ray)that I would guess may or not be good news. What do you think?
> 
> View attachment 174093


You’ve got it,Popi! And you’ve saved me from having to mark this up This morning! LOL! As far as all the other bits and pieces, I can identify some, but not sll... I’m not a vet either. And remember, one of the things that makes it hard to “put the skeletons together” is that they are NOT! This is a REALLY good reminder how incomplete puppy skeletons are for a NUMBER of months after they are born, and how vitally important it is to protect those little joints from injury until they finish laying down bone. (Sometime around a year old for a small breed, much later for a large breed puppy!)

As far as the pup that appears so much smaller (and the one that appears so much larger) I have a call in to the vet about that. This was a frustrating Covid visit, (which hasn’t happened here before) and I never got to talk to the vet. Very bad timing for me! I am not at all sure that these pups ARE so different in size, as I know that camera position can do this. I would assume the same can happen with an xray? I’m not sure, but I sm not going to rush to conclusions.

I know that many years ago, I got a nasty surprise during the incident when Kodi had the intestinal blockage in the middle of the night. The ER vet came into the room with the xray of my 18 month old puppy and said, “I assume you know he has an enlarged heart...” *WHAT?!?! *I knew no such thing! Well, it turned out that the intern on staff was not used to reading xrays of small breed dogs , yelling about being held on their back, (so having expelled all the air from his lungs at the moment the xray was clicked). The cardiologist and radiologist looked at the rads in the morning and both affirmed that there was absolutely NOTHING wrong with his heart... that he “just” had a belly full of backed-up matter. LOL! 

So I am NOT going to assume a huge size difference in these pups until I talk to someone more used to reading xrays than I am.  (And I do NOT think that the puppy farthest right looks that much bigger... I think the one curled up all the way left looks very small... if I were to worry, THAT one is the one that worries me!). If she could not deliver the first puppy, we are not far from the vet’s office, and although an emergency section is not ideal, that is what we would do.

As far as knowing when all the puppies are delivered, that is the whole purpose of the xray. Many more experienced breeders don’t bother with them. They trust to mother nature and their experience to tell when whelping is done. BUT... if you make a mistake, and there is a puppy left inside, it can mean the death of that puppy and potentially the bitch. Unlike the ultrasound, which fives you a “rough idea” of numbers, the xray gives tou a hard count. So when she has delivered 5 pups, I will KNOW she is done. If she stops BEFORE she has had 5 puppies, I will know there is a problem, while there is still time to potentially intervene and save that last puppy, and most importantly, keep a dead puppy from causing an infection and potentially killing HER!


----------



## Veneita

krandall said:


> You’ve got it,Popi! And you’ve saved me from having to mark this up This morning! LOL! As far as all the other bits and pieces, I can identify some, but not sll... I’m not a vet either. And remember, one of the things that makes it hard to “put the skeletons together” is that they are NOT! This is a REALLY good reminder how incomplete puppy skeletons are for a NUMBER of months after they are born, and how vitally important it is to protect those little joints from injury until they finish laying down bone. (Sometime around a year old for a small breed, much later for a large breed puppy!)
> 
> As far as the pup that appears so much smaller (and the one that appears so much larger) I have a call in to the vet about that. This was a frustrating Covid visit, (which hasn’t happened here before) and I never got to talk to the vet. Very bad timing for me! I am not at all sure that these pups ARE so different in size, as I know that camera position can do this. I would assume the same can happen with an xray? I’m not sure, but I sm not going to rush to conclusions.
> 
> I know that many years ago, I got a nasty surprise during the incident when Kodi had the intestinal blockage in the middle of the night. The ER vet came into the room with the xray of my 18 month old puppy and said, “I assume you know he has an enlarged heart...” *WHAT?!?! *I knew no such thing! Well, it turned out that the intern on staff was not used to reading xrays of small breed dogs , yelling about being held on their back, (so having expelled all the air from his lungs at the moment the xray was clicked). The cardiologist and radiologist looked at the rads in the morning and both affirmed that there was absolutely NOTHING wrong with his heart... that he “just” had a belly full of backed-up matter. LOL!
> 
> So I am NOT going to assume a huge size difference in these pups until I talk to someone more used to reading xrays than I am.  (And I do NOT think that the puppy farthest right looks that much bigger... I think the one curled up all the way left looks very small... if I were to worry, THAT one is the one that worries me!). If she could not deliver the first puppy, we are not far from the vet’s office, and although an emergency section is not ideal, that is what we would do.
> 
> As far as knowing when all the puppies are delivered, that is the whole purpose of the xray. Many more experienced breeders don’t bother with them. They trust to mother nature and their experience to tell when whelping is done. BUT... if you make a mistake, and there is a puppy left inside, it can mean the death of that puppy and potentially the bitch. Unlike the ultrasound, which fives you a “rough idea” of numbers, the xray gives tou a hard count. So when she has delivered 5 pups, I will KNOW she is done. If she stops BEFORE she has had 5 puppies, I will know there is a problem, while there is still time to potentially intervene and save that last puppy, and most importantly, keep a dead puppy from causing an infection and potentially killing HER!


Karen,
I am to thinking of you all and wishing for the very best outcome!!!
Veneita


----------



## Molly120213

Wishing you and Panda a safe and uneventful delivery. Can't wait to see those puppies!


----------



## 31818

Tere said:


> am totally amazed by how many puppies these tiny little dogs can have at once and in such a short amount of time!





krandall said:


> And remember, one of the things that makes it hard to “put the skeletons together” is that they are NOT! This is a REALLY good reminder how incomplete puppy skeletons are for a NUMBER of months after they are born, and how vitally important it is to protect those little joints from injury until they finish laying down bone. (Sometime around a year old for a small breed, much later for a large breed puppy!)


The light bulb just went on in my head! @Tere and I presumed that these Havanese puppies are born fully developed after only 60 days of gestation. You point out they are not! When these puppies are born, they ARE NOT fully developed, even after 8 to 12 weeks when they are sent to their furever homes. When they are delivered, they are still only partially developed and we all have the pleasure of seeing them become fully functional dogs for a whole year, outside the womb. So to become a real "dog" takes somewhere between 12 to 14 months after conception. That is why it is so important for these puppy owners not to force too rapid expectations with regards to activity, exercise, and accomplishments. A puppy should be allowed to progress and develop at their own pace with encouragement, supervision, and support for at least a full year after birth. That is why some puppies may appear to be a "slower learner" than some of their littermates. They aren't, they are just less fully developed than their siblings at birth and require more time outside the womb for development to achieve their potential. I suppose the opposite is true, too. Some on HF have said, "my 4 month old puppy is huge, and eating everything in sight!" I guess that means that besides heredity, that puppy developed more fully inside the womb and is storming more quickly to being fully developed at a rapid pace than others in its litter. What do y'all think?




> As far as knowing when all the puppies are delivered, that is the whole purpose of the xray. Many more experienced breeders don’t bother with them. They trust to mother nature and their experience to tell when whelping is done. BUT... if you make a mistake, and there is a puppy left inside, it can mean the death of that puppy and potentially the bitch. Unlike the ultrasound, which fives you a “rough idea” of numbers, the xray gives tou a hard count. So when she has delivered 5 pups, I will KNOW she is done. If she stops BEFORE she has had 5 puppies, I will know there is a problem, while there is still time to potentially intervene and save that last puppy, and most importantly, keep a dead puppy from causing an infection and potentially killing HER!


Maybe I have answered my own question. Is it fair for me to assume that all puppies have been delivered when the placenta is expelled by the dam? (I hate the word "b*tch, and I don't care about tradition, it just sounds very rude and disrespectful.) Karen, there is a canine placenta RIGHT, RIGHT? Which brings up another one of my questions. In the wild, female mammals will eat the placenta right after birth to give immediate nourishment after an exhausting labor. (It can't be anything worse than eating the Scottish national dish called HAGGIS and you never want to know what it is made from!!!). So does that occur in a home delivery too? And what about the umbilical cords? Do you tie them off and cut them? Why don't dogs have "belly buttons"? I told you I was going to show my ignorance for the whole world to see! This stuff is interesting.


----------



## Heather's

Looking forward to the arrival of all the little fur babies! Wishing both you and Panda a smooth delivery! 💜


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> So I am NOT going to assume a huge size difference in these pups until I talk to someone more used to reading xrays than I am.  (And I do NOT think that the puppy farthest right looks that much bigger... I think the one curled up all the way left looks very small... if I were to worry, THAT one is the one that worries me!). If she could not deliver the first puppy, we are not far from the vet’s office, and although an emergency section is not ideal, that is what we would do.


Karen, in my opinion, the two puppies on the left are in a more vertical position and thus appear smaller. The three puppies on the right are in a more horizontal position and appear larger. I am trying to get a better idea of relative size by cranial development but this is difficult too because, as you say, of x-ray angle and PANDA's position on the exam table.


----------



## LeleRF

Hooray! It’s good it’s not 6 or more for Panda’s sake (and her Mom’s!) though it almost seemed there were more spines, which led me to believe one‘s head was hidden or at an angle that didn’t show on the X-Ray. We’ll be looking forward to hearing the word and seeing pics when all the lovely pups are born and of course everyone has been able to catch their breath!


----------



## 31818

Ricky Ricardo said:


> And what about the umbilical cords? Do you tie them off and cut them? Why don't dogs have "belly buttons"?


Well I did some research and answered my own question on Psychology Today website. I simply had no idea!
Do Dogs Have Belly Buttons?


----------



## ShamaMama

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Well I did some research and answered my own question on Psychology Today website. I simply had no idea!
> Do Dogs Have Belly Buttons?


Great article, Popi!

Karen, ShamaPapa, Shama, and I are wishing you the best possible outcome with the births of these Panda pups!

I was just telling Shama that she would fit perfectly into Karen's mix as she was born between Pixel and Panda!

Today, Shama is going to meet Georgy, the Golden Retriever puppy that our friends are raising for Helping Paws. Georgy was named for this song.

💚💛🧡💜💙


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> The light bulb just went on in my head! @Tere and I presumed that these Havanese puppies are born fully developed after only 60 days of gestation. You point out they are not! When these puppies are born, they ARE NOT fully developed, even after 8 to 12 weeks when they are sent to their furever homes. When they are delivered, they are still only partially developed and we all have the pleasure of seeing them become fully functional dogs for a whole year, outside the womb. So to become a real "dog" takes somewhere between 12 to 14 months after conception. That is why it is so important for these puppy owners not to force too rapid expectations with regards to activity, exercise, and accomplishments. A puppy should be allowed to progress and develop at their own pace with encouragement, supervision, and support for at least a full year after birth.


Yes! And I see many puppy people making the mistake of pushing puppy bodies too far when they have not physically matured as well as expecting puppies to be MENTALLY capable of thought processes at 16 to 20 weeks (or even much older!) that they just aren't capable of. The puppy might do something ONCE at that age, and the person is SO proud, and think the puppy has "got it". They don't. It was almost an "accident" that they did it the first time! It takes many, MANY repetitions. before it becomes really solidified in the puppy's learning. We do the same thing with children in school. We are ALWAYS "circling back" and re-teaching, and building on previously learned material. We never would teach something once, in 4th grade, never reinforce that knowledge, and expect that the student would retain it to final exams for graduation!



Ricky Ricardo said:


> That is why some puppies may appear to be a "slower learner" than some of their littermates. They aren't, they are just less fully developed than their siblings at birth and require more time outside the womb for development to achieve their potential. I suppose the opposite is true, too. Some on HF have said, "my 4 month old puppy is huge, and eating everything in sight!" I guess that means that besides heredity, that puppy developed more fully inside the womb and is storming more quickly to being fully developed at a rapid pace than others in its litter. What do y'all think?


Not quite. Unless a puppy has been dropped on its head or something (just kidding! LOL!) MOST puppies are what developmental psych people call "WNL" (within normal limits) Meaning there is a pretty broad range of "normal". My understanding is that eggs COULD get fertilized within a day or two or three of each other, but that is REALLY not going to make much of any developmental difference in those puppies at the end of 63 days. From what I've read, size CAN be affected by where the placenta implants on the uterine wall. If a placenta implants exactly where a previous puppy has implanted, there can be a little scarring there, so a little lower blood flow to the puppy, meaning a little SMALLER puppy. But size does NOT necessarily have anything directly to do with state of development. But that is not possible in Panda's case, since she has never had a litter before.



Ricky Ricardo said:


> Maybe I have answered my own question. Is it fair for me to assume that all puppies have been delivered when the placenta is expelled by the dam?


Each puppy comes packaged in its own sack and with its own placenta! And unlike any of the other mammals I've had anything to do with, they wear it around their middle, like a little dark green life preserver! 



Ricky Ricardo said:


> (I hate the word "b*tch, and I don't care about tradition, it just sounds very rude and disrespectful.)


We all should get over that! It is as silly as people bastardizing the name of a certain beautiful New Zealand plant that produces a tasty form of honey!  The word bitch is no more a bad word than calling a female horse a mare or a female pig a sow or a female sheep a ewe. (or a female human a woman. It's just what they are! I LOVE my bitches!!! 💗 💗 💗  



Ricky Ricardo said:


> Karen, there is a canine placenta RIGHT, RIGHT? Which brings up another one of my questions. In the wild, female mammals will eat the placenta right after birth to give immediate nourishment after an exhausting labor. (It can't be anything worse than eating the Scottish national dish called HAGGIS and you never want to know what it is made from!!!). So does that occur in a home delivery too?


Yes, there is a placenta for each puppy. To SOME extent, animals eat the placenta for nourishment. It also is to clean up the nest, and avoid attracting predators. Those are almost bigger reasons. NONE of those are important to domestic dogs. And letting them eat a LOT of placental material can give them diarrhea, which just adds to their woes, and doesn't make it any easier for the humans to handle. I'm not sure what Pam's position is on that... (I'll put that on my list of things to ask her!) I know my friend Elinor let Poppy eat too many on her first litter (6 puppies) and she and Poppy paid the consequences. On her litters after that, we took most of them away, though she may have gotten one or two.

Both Elinor and I assiduously counted placentas with Poppy, thinking it was important. Since then, we have read papers form a couple of high respected repro specialists that say that a retained placenta in a dog is NOT a big deal and not to worry about it. (it can mean DEATH in a horse, cow or human!) Since this is my first litter, I will still count, hope we get them all, and if we don't, I'll check in with MY repro vet for advice. 

The problem is that horses, cows and humans mostly have one baby. Occasionally two. So keeping track of placentas tends to be fairly straightforward. When you are delivering multiple puppies, things can get... confusing!!! It is not AT ALL uncommon for the placenta of one puppy to be passed with the puppy after it. So your counting can get pretty muddled. And you can't just leave them lying out there, or the bitch (see how I just slipped that word in casually for you  ) WILL try to eat it and get it out of the way for you!



Ricky Ricardo said:


> And what about the umbilical cords? Do you tie them off and cut them?


There are a lot of different ways that people handle umbilical cords, and I SUSPECT that it partly depends on the size of the dog involved. Some people let the mother bite the cord herself. Probably 95% of the time, that would be fine, but the whole reason that we attend whelping is to minimize the possibility of things going wrong. And the mother, especially a first-time mom, might get over-excited, upset, or just be inept, bite too hard, too close, or just aim wrong. If she bites too close to the puppy's belly, she could cause an umbilical (amusingly, spell check changed that to "unmusical") hernia, or in a very worst scenario, cause the puppy to bleed out. Worse, she could manage to bite toes or feet along with the cord. I don't know if you were around in the days when we had a puppy here on the forum who had that happen to him. He was given to a forum member because of this deformity. (I think, if I remember right, he lost two toes) He was otherwise a fine dog, and a lovely pet. But a bit of a "special needs" dog, like our Lego here on the forum, so ended up in a special needs home!

What is appropriate for our toy dogs would probably NOT work on big retriever puppies, let alone on Great Dane puppies. (even though BOTH of those puppies would be a lot smaller in relationship to the size of mom!) Some people use clamps, LOTS of people tie them off with unwaxed dental floss then cut them or clamp, then cut, then tie, then release the clamp. 

I have learned to tear them with (VERY CLEAN) fingernails. This very closely approximates the mother biting the cord. It crushes and tears the cord, stopping all bleeding immediately, and does not take anywhere NEAR as long as tying them. The problem with tying them is that the mothers ARE going to lick the umbilicals, and they mess with them MORE if there is dental floss on them. I worry about the mothers ingesting these pieces of string, even if they are knotted and very short. In the end, you have an umbilicus without the dental floss pretty fast anyway, since the bitch has removed it. So why bother? I WILL have the proper tools available, just in CASE we had a situation where we had one that didn't stop bleeding. But so far, I haven't seen than happen.



Ricky Ricardo said:


> Why don't dogs have "belly buttons"? I told you I was going to show my ignorance for the whole world to see! This stuff is interesting.


They do! But they are SMALL!!! Think how small the umbilical is on a newborn Havanese, compared to the size of a full grown Havanese. They don't show much, especially on PUR hairy-bellied dogs! Since Panda's belly has been shaved, she (grudgingly) modeled.


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Karen, in my opinion, the two puppies on the left are in a more vertical position and thus appear smaller. The three puppies on the right are in a more horizontal position and appear larger. I am trying to get a better idea of relative size by cranial development but this is difficult too because, as you say, of x-ray angle and PANDA's position on the exam table.


As I said, I'm not even going to guess at this point without talking to the vet. And we'll see soon enough, when they are in a warm, squirming puppy pile! LOL!


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

I haven't seen your answer yet, Karen. At first, I counted heads and could definitely see 5. Then I counted spines and was sure I saw six. Then recounted spines and it almost looks like 7.  So, I guess 6 for sure and maybe 7?????


----------



## krandall

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> I haven't seen your answer yet, Karen. At first, I counted heads and could definitely see 5. Then I counted spines and was sure I saw six. Then recounted spines and it almost looks like 7.  So, I guess 6 for sure and maybe 7?????


I answered in my response to Popi! There are five! Look at h=is response with the little hearts on the skills. He got it right!


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

krandall said:


> I answered in my response to Popi! There are five! Look at h=is response with the little hearts on the skills. He got it right!


I should have stuck with my original head count of 5! Does Popi win a puppy?


----------



## krandall

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> I should have stuck with my original head count of 5! Does Popi win a puppy?


   Just a gold star for his forehead!


----------



## 31818

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> Does Popi win a puppy?


I already have a puppy, he is 7 y.o.!


----------



## krandall

OK. just talked to a vet friend. The size difference on the Xray is simply a matter of positioning, and has nothing to do with puppy size. That's KIND of what I thought, but wanted to make sure before I spoke.


----------



## Heather's

There's a lot going on in that x-ray! I thought there was another puppy head to the right of the upper left puppy. Directly between the upper left and right puppy. It appeared to have a spine connected to it. It's not as defined as the others, so guess that must only be a shadow.


----------



## krandall

Heather's said:


> There's a lot going on in that x-ray! I thought there was another puppy head to the right of the upper left puppy. Directly between the upper left and right puppy. It appeared to have a spine connected to it. It's not as defined as the others, so guess that must only be a shadow.


Yeah, they can be hard to read. But the skulls are usually pretty clear unless it's a MASS of puppies like Panda's litter, which was ELEVEN puppies. Then there are so many it's hard even for the experts to read!


----------



## ShamaMama

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> Does Popi win a puppy?


"Popi wins a puppy" would be a great song lyric!

Karen, are any forum members on the list for those puppies? Yes or no is fine. No need to name names ...

Shama and Georgy got along fine. Shama did not hesitate to growl at Georgy a few times to set her straight. 

💚💛🧡💜💙


----------



## 31818

ShamaMama said:


> "Popi wins a puppy" would be a great song lyric!


L🤣L


> Shama and Georgy got along fine. Shama did not hesitate to growl at Georgy a few times to set her straight.


We spent Easter this afternoon with DD1, her partner, and JoJo for various reasons. JoJo and RICKY are best friends even though JoJo weighs about 70 pounds and RICKY 15. They spent a lot of time growling at each other in canine taunts for play. The playdate has ended, everyone has gone home and RICKY is exhausted. At 7pm he called it a happy day and checked out for the night. All's well that ends well.


----------



## krandall

ShamaMama said:


> "Popi wins a puppy" would be a great song lyric!
> 
> Karen, are any forum members on the list for those puppies? Yes or no is fine. No need to name names ...
> 
> Shama and Georgy got along fine. Shama did not hesitate to growl at Georgy a few times to set her straight.
> 
> 💚💛🧡💜💙
> 
> View attachment 174097
> 
> 
> View attachment 174098
> 
> 
> View attachment 174099
> 
> 
> View attachment 174100
> 
> 
> View attachment 174101


No one gets any confirmations about puppies until I have live, healthy puppies.


----------



## Mikki

krandall said:


> Panda is back from her X-ray! This is the clearest X-ray _I've_ seen, so this shouldn't be TOO hard... But I'll still make you guess. How many puppies? (Tom... you be quiet.  )
> View attachment 174091


My retired orthopedic surgeon husband guesses- 5.


----------



## krandall

Mikki said:


> My retired orthopedic surgeon husband guesses- 5.


He guesses right.


----------



## Tere

Karen, any news yet?


----------



## 31818

Tere said:


> Karen, any news yet?


It is my understanding from sources familiar with the situation, that Karen has her hands full right now and has gone silent. I have heard that PANDA has NOT gone into labor yet and therefore no puppies yet.


----------



## Tere

Thanks for the update! I was/am pretty sure the team would arrive today on Shadow's birthday! Fingers & paws crossed for an easy birth for Panda & Karen!


----------



## 31818

Latest report is PANDA is getting ready to pop, core temperature is dropping slightly (which is a sign of potential labor), and delivery possibly within the next two days. She is still moderately active with a good appetite. Everything is still up in the air.


----------



## ShamaMama

"Pop," Popi? 🤠

I hope those sweet little puppies slide on in to this world without causing any pain to dear Panda.

We are thinking of you, Karen and Panda and family!

💚💛🧡💜💙


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

Thank you Popi for keeping us up to date on what's happening with Panda and Karen. I can hardly wait!


----------



## krandall

Panda' puppies are here after a pretty harrowing couple of days! Panda was in the early stages of labor over Easter. She progressed to more serious first stage labor that night. We were in close contact with our repro vet and another vet friend (****’s breeder!) all day yesterday as well as pestering Pam King at regular intervals!!!  While it is not unusual for maiden bitches to have fairly long first stage labors, by yesterday afternoon, she had been in clear distress but non-productive labor (that is NOT unusual, as anyone who has had even ONE baby at a time can tell you... birthing babies HURTS!) for over 18 hours. They suggested I "wait another half hour” (why do vets and doctors always do that?!?!) and if she still hadn’t produced a puppy, to bring her in to ultrasound her just to “make sure everything was OK”. Fortunately, the vet is close by.

When we got there, the fetal heart rate on one puppy was dangerously low, although it recovered somewhat while they were ultrasounding her. The others were in what they called the “borderline” range. The decision was made to do a C-section to keep all the puppies and Mom safe.

So… at 4:30 PM, 4 beautiful, big healthy boys and an equally big healthy girl entered the world. I’d like to introduce you to the Easter Basket litter: Cadbury(M), Peeps(M), Chirp(F), Jelly Bean(M) and Ducky(M)! Separate pictures will follow at some later date, when they are a bit older, and mom has recovered more.

Since I told you I would share everything with you folks, here are the pups in the incubator as they waited for mom in recovery. I was allowed in to wait with Panda as she recovered and to help introduce her to her pups.









Then they brought Panda in to me, still VERY groggy, to recover beside me on the floor under a heated air blanket. she has a BIG zipper, poor dear!









At the hospital, it looked like her milk was not coming in, and as you probably know colostrum is vital to puppies’ immune systems. So each puppy was given frozen (thawed and warmed, of course!) plasma, which gives them the same antibodies as colostrum would, and all got tanked up on a first meal of formula by the veterinary staff. We got sent home expecting that I would have to bottle feed them for a few days as Panda healed. My good mama had other plans, and as soon as the pups were with her at home, they latched on, started to feed, and there hasn’t been a peep out of them since except if one wanders away and can’t find its way back! Hungry puppies that are not getting anything do not stay latched, and they cry. A LOT!!! So they got a double dose of antibodies! The plasma at the hospital, AND they are getting a full compliment of colostrum from mom! 

I was also warned not to leave her unsupervised for a SECOND with the puppies for the first couple of days, because mothers who have been anesthetized and have not gone through a normal birthing process, and are also sometimes disoriented by the anesthesia and in pain, have been known to neglect or even savage their pups. Of course I am following these instructions, but she couldn't POSSIBLY be a more gentle, attentive, yet kind and relaxed mom. I would be EXTREMELY surprised... ASTOUNDED, if she even neglected, let alone purposely tried to hurt her pups. Even with those five little beasties kneading on her brand new incision, she just lies there with the soft, "Madonna" smile on her face. When I weigh them, them she follows each one over to the scale with me, but not frantic… just watching, to make sure I’m going to bring them back. She couldn’t be any better!

So there’s the update, and here are a few more photos. The B&W ones are from the puppy cam during the night… it works even in total dark! 

Panda when she first got home last night. She was already being a super mom. even groggy from anesthesia!









My Puppy Cam is pretty impressive! I can watch them even with absolutely no light in the room!!!









From top to bottom:

Jelly Bean (Black parti boy)
Peeps (Black boy)
Chirp (underneath) (Black girl with white trim)
Ducky (Red and white party boy - a bit of a surprise, that one!)
Cadbury Bunny (Black boy with white trim). Cadbury was the big boy stopping up the works!









Panda, showing off her impressive zipper. When they decided those puppies needed to come out, they were NOT wasting any time!









So that's the story! Thank you, Popi, for keeping people filled in, and not letting them think we'd fallen into the abyss. There was simply no time for ANYTHING but taking care of Panda and pups. There will probably be many MORE of those days to come... and other times in between that I need to catch up on sleep. But I did want you see Panda's beautiful new kidlets!!!


----------



## Veneita

Karen, I’m so happy and relieved for you all!! She and they are miracles!! Congratulations!
Veneita


----------



## Sheri

Congratulations, Karen and Panda. Scary times, and I was wondering. I am so glad you are close to your vet, and had such good mentors, too.


----------



## Molly120213

Wow! Congratulations on five beautiful puppies. Sorry for what poor Panda had to go through but so happy all ended well. Thanks for keeping us up to date.


----------



## LWalks

Wow- What an ordeal you and Panda have been through! So glad mama Panda and her adorable babies are doing well despite the challenges, and she looks like such a sweet mama. Hope you both are finding a few minutes here and there to rest ❤


----------



## Ditto's Mom

Congratulations Karen and to beautiful Panda and her beautiful babies. I write this with tears of happiness.


----------



## LeleRF

So thrilled and relieved for you & proud Mama Panda. Precious, darling Pups the whole lot of them. Love the names too!


----------



## krandall

Lisa Walker said:


> Wow- What an ordeal you and Panda have been through! So glad mama Panda and her adorable babies are doing well despite the challenges, and she looks like such a sweet mama. Hope you both are finding a few minutes here and there to rest ❤


I AM resting as much as I can, in between taking care of her and the pups, the other dogs... and trying to put the house back in order... it seems to have EXPLODED while she was in labor!!! LOL!

Now that I am getting more and more sure she is NOT going to do any of the horrid things I was warned about to her puppies, I have taken a few minutes here and there to do things like, oh, take a shower, and put the spare bedroom (right next to the whelping room) back in order, etc.


----------



## Tere

Congratulation to the beautiful Panda on a beautiful team and to Karen! That was a very stressful time! I couldn't imagine how it must have been to be there.
Panda looks like she just stepped out of the doggie spa though!


----------



## krandall

Tere said:


> Congratulation to the beautiful Panda on a beautiful team and to Karen! That was a very stressful time! I couldn't imagine how it must have been to be there.
> Panda looks like she just stepped out of the doggie spa though!


LOL! A lot less so today! She needs a lot more calories, protein and calcium now that she is “eating for six”, so besides her regular food, she is getting some mix-ins that are messy, and gets to eat 4 times per day. (The other dogs are INSANELY jealous!!!) We have quite the case of mucky face going on!!!


----------



## 31818

I am so proud and excited. I really didn't sleep well last night (restless) and now I know why!!!! I have proclaimed myself the DOGFATHER of the litter. Winners every one of them going to some lucky families!

Congratulations Karen, PANDA, and family. Get some rest, all of you, and get back to us with more news as you have time!


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I am so proud and excited. I really didn't sleep well last night (restless) and now I know why!!!! I have proclaimed myself the DOGFATHER of the litter. Winners every one of them going to some lucky families!
> 
> Congratulations Karen, PANDA, and family. Get some rest, all of you, and get back to us with more news as you have time!


❤ I will make you the OFFICIAL “Dogfather!” How’s that!


----------



## morriscsps

Congrats on surviving the ordeal. they are beautiful puppies.


----------



## Heather's

Congratulations Karen and Panda! What an exciting Easter! So happy to hear Panda's precious babies have safely arrived and she is doing well. 💜 Such a pretty mama! Very cute names... Just curious how much do they weigh?


----------



## Mando's Mommy

Congratulations to you and Panda! The puppies are beautiful and I'm so glad to hear that everyone is safe and healthy. Panda is such a sweet, proud mommy. 💗


----------



## mudpuppymama

krandall said:


> I AM resting as much as I can, in between taking care of her and the pups, the other dogs... and trying to put the house back in order... it seems to have EXPLODED while she was in labor!!! LOL!
> 
> Now that I am getting more and more sure she is NOT going to do any of the horrid things I was warned about to her puppies, I have taken a few minutes here and there to do things like, oh, take a shower, and put the spare bedroom (right next to the whelping room) back in order, etc.


How awesome! Congratulations! Please Karen take care of yourself too. You need to be strong when all those precious puppies start running around!


----------



## ShamaMama

Congratulations! I would have been so scared. Sounds like Panda was a real trooper. Thanks for all the details and all the photos! (I don't remember ever reading a thread about puppies being expected then born before, unless Tom posted one ...) I love the names too! Ducky's coloring is pretty fun! Will be easy to spot him among the others! Today was my first day back at school for in-person learning, so catching up on this thread MADE MY DAY!

💚💛🧡💜💙


----------



## Tere

Now we're going to have to start guessing which puppy Karen is going to keep!


----------



## Mando's Mommy

Tere said:


> Now we're going to have to start guessing which puppy Karen is going to keep!


Inquiring minds want to know!


----------



## krandall

morriscsps said:


> Congrats on surviving the ordeal. they are beautiful puppies.


Thanks!


----------



## krandall

Heather's said:


> Congratulations Karen and Panda! What an exciting Easter! So happy to hear Panda's precious babies have safely arrived and she is doing well. 💜 Such a pretty mama! Very cute names... Just curious how much do they weigh?


Cadbury Bunny was 226g at birth and Ducky was 181g. The others were between that.


----------



## krandall

Tere said:


> Now we're going to have to start guessing which puppy Karen is going to keep!


If you can guess that, you’ll be way ahead of me, because I have no idea! LOL!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

Wow what a _hare_ raising Easter extravaganza for you all Karen! Congratulations to you and especially to new mummy Panda🥳 I am so pleased they are all safe and well, back home settling in like new puppies should be. Great to see Panda is such a natural with them despite the bumpy beginning💗💗💗.

Thank you so much for setting up this post and keeping us updated all the way through. I keep thinking these little pups are like Charlotte’s babies from ”Charlotte’s Web,” with so many forum Aunties and Uncles looking out for them💕


----------



## krandall

So, overnight update...

First... The pig rail had to go. Puppies were getting under it, started squawking, she couldnt get them out and was getting frantic. I really think there is very little danger of her squashing them. That is the intended purpose, but I think is probably more an issue where there is a much bigger size difference between puppies and mum. And she is being VERY careful with them.

Second... The vet fleece had to go. I only have strips that are wide enough for half of the box. Panda has ALWAYS been a bed digger, fluffer, rearranger. I’ve mentioned before that we call her “Goldilocks” because of all the (human) bed unmaking she does if given the chance. She had started to dig under these layers during the day a bit, and I had been discouraging it. I woke during the night to find her trying to get on my bed (tummy too sore to jump up) and saw that she had put ALL the puppies UNDER the vet fleece, on top of the heating pad! There wasn’t a peep from them and I JUMPED up, worried I’d find five cooked, suffocated puppies! They were fine, just toasty and sleeping in the cozy little den she’d made for them, but I just don’t think that’s safe. So I stripped all the vet fleece out. (BTW, LOTS of breeder DO use vet fleece, and it was specifically recommended to me by another breeder with a gal with a very white hind end, because it absorbs lots of fluids and keeps mom cleaner. (obviously you can’t put panties on a girl who is nursing!)

So those were the two things that got me out of bed in a hurry in the middle of the night. Now for the more positive stuff, thanks to the puppy cam! I no longer have to get up to help the family “rearrange” just because puppies are on the wrong side of her or have wandered off to the wrong side of the box. They have already developed the strength to climb up mom’s back and slide down her fur on the “milk bar” side to get where they want to be. 

And in the case of the “lost soul” on the other side of the box? I was SURE I was going to have to go rescue THAT one. But she calmly went over, gently picked it up with her mouth, brought it back and tucked it against her. Perfect mom! I wish I’d been quick witted enough to press the ”picture” button on the puppy cam for that one!!!

So here is a photo of the newly rearrange box and family. Doesn’t look as sleek, with hand towels stuffed in under the pig rails, but that keeps the puppies OUT, and at the same time, (hopefully) will make it harder for her to dig up THESE pads to hide puppies under them! This is ONE motherly instinct I could do without! LOL!










Oh, in case anyone is wondering, the one piece of vet fleece left is to protect her teats from the hard edge of the whelping box getting in and out. It’s pinned down well, so she can’t “fluff” that one.


----------



## Wulfin

Glad that all ended well even if it did get you up in a panic!!! Sounds like Panda is a wonderful mom!!

The parti red and white reminds me SO much of Denver’s baby pictures.


----------



## Melissa Brill

Wow, I'm offline for 1 day and sooooo much has happened! Congrats they look amazing!! Glad Panda is doing well and sounds like she's such a great mom. 

Have the other two "met" the pups yet? We raised Dalmatians when I was a kid and I know that after a few days we let the other dogs meet them with no problems at all. It did take a few days (maybe a week, I can't remember exactly) though. One disaster was when one of the Moms had just had a litter and my sister decided that the other female should meet the puppies (I think my Mom was upstairs at that minute). While after a few days/ week (or so) both moms were perfectly fine with the others being with the puppies, in this case it was MUCH too soon and ended up in a really major serious fight (my Mom ended up with serious injuries on her arm and needed stitches from separating the mom and the other female - - two dogs who never ever would even think about biting and never had a spat between them either).


----------



## stephsu

Congrats!!!! That sounds like quite an ordeal, I am so glad all are healthy and doing well. I love the pictures, please keep us posted!! Best of luck to all of you and hoping you can get some rest soon!


----------



## krandall

Melissa Brill said:


> Wow, I'm offline for 1 day and sooooo much has happened! Congrats they look amazing!! Glad Panda is doing well and sounds like she's such a great mom.
> 
> Have the other two "met" the pups yet? We raised Dalmatians when I was a kid and I know that after a few days we let the other dogs meet them with no problems at all. It did take a few days (maybe a week, I can't remember exactly) though. One disaster was when one of the Moms had just had a litter and my sister decided that the other female should meet the puppies (I think my Mom was upstairs at that minute). While after a few days/ week (or so) both moms were perfectly fine with the others being with the puppies, in this case it was MUCH too soon and ended up in a really major serious fight (my Mom ended up with serious injuries on her arm and needed stitches from separating the mom and the other female - - two dogs who never ever would even think about biting and never had a spat between them either).


Yes, this is MUCH too soon to let the other two in. Kodi, for sure wouldn’t harm them, and I don’t THINK Pixel would either. But Pixel MIGHT try to steal them, and I am SURE Panda can tell that. Pixel is INSANE over puppies, ans she is the one who had the false pregnancy. She wants to get to the babies VERY badly!!! (She LOVES older puppies!!!) Panda doesn‘t want Pixel ANYWHERE near them. There are two gates between Pixel and the babies right now, so she can’t even see them. That will, for sure, change with time. But not for the first couple of weeks, especially with poor Panda not feeling totally up to snuff.


----------



## Mama Mills

Big Congrats Karen, Panda, and family!!!! Wow what a wild adventure. I'm so glad you all came through unscathed. Bringing new life into the world is no joke! Thanks for bringing us along on the journey - looking forward to more updates and sending love to Panda and her beautiful brood


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

Oh my gosh this is so exciting and interesting! I'm sorry for Panda and you that the birth couldn't be a natural one. So glad the vet is close. The puppies are all so beautiful and I'm really looking forward to more photos. The first photo of Panda with her pups, I have to say she looks a little confused! It must be such a surprise to them to find out they have children!


----------



## Mikki

Tere said:


> Now we're going to have to start guessing which puppy Karen is going to keep!


Obviously, the female.


----------



## Melissa Brill

krandall said:


> Yes, this is MUCH too soon to let the other two in. Kodi, for sure wouldn’t harm them, and I don’t THINK Pixel would either. But Pixel MIGHT try to steal them, and I am SURE Panda can tell that. Pixel is INSANE over puppies, ans she is the one who had the false pregnancy. She wants to get to the babies VERY badly!!! (She LOVES older puppies!!!) Panda doesn‘t want Pixel ANYWHERE near them. There are two gates between Pixel and the babies right now, so she can’t even see them. That will, for sure, change with time. But not for the first couple of weeks, especially with poor Panda not feeling totally up to snuff.


In the case of our Dals, there was zero concern that the other female would harm them - but Mama was definitely not ready to share . It's funny thinking about Pixel being sooo insane over puppies that she might try to steal them! And I can definitely see the time needed to be longer while Panda heals from her surgery in addition to getting used to the others being around the babies.


----------



## krandall

Melissa Brill said:


> In the case of our Dals, there was zero concern that the other female would harm them - but Mama was definitely not ready to share . It's funny thinking about Pixel being sooo insane over puppies that she might try to steal them! And I can definitely see the time needed to be longer while Panda heals from her surgery in addition to getting used to the others being around the babies.


she’s also on drugs, which changes things too.


----------



## 31818

I have a couple of questions for Karen when she has time.


I believe Karen said PANDA 'hooked up' with HEBEE three times over a one or two week period. Since PANDA had a litter of five, could individual pups have been conceived at different hook ups? In other words, can some of the pups be at different ages depending when they were conceived, maybe a week apart?
At what point do you decide at what age pups will available to be sent to their forever homes?


----------



## Wulfin

I can answer your first one and YES (though I think at most it’s be a few days, Karen can correct me on the timeline though)! Did you also know that pups born at the same time from one bitch can even have different dads? That’s called a multi-sire litter!! (Denver was in a litter of two, different dads and because of that the pups were DNA tested to see who was who’s for the litter registration .. it was like Maury Pauvich.. you ARE the father )


----------



## LeleRF

Wulfin said:


> I can answer your first one and YES (though I think at most it’s be a few days, Karen can correct me on the timeline though)! Did you also know that pups born at the same time from one bitch can even have different dads? That’s called a multi-sire litter!! (Denver was in a litter of two, different dads and because of that the pups were DNA tested to see who was who’s for the litter registration .. it was like Maury Pauvich.. you ARE the father )


Wha wha what? 😮 🤯 I had no idea that was possible! Just imagine the complications that would cause in humans! Oh perish the thought!

Thanks for asking the question, Popi!


----------



## Cassandra

Congratulations!!! I was also off line for a few days and decided I should check in to see if the puppies had arrived! Thanks for sharing so much detail.. so much fun to follow and so happy for Panda and you. Those puppies are adorable and she sounds like a wonderful mom.


----------



## 31818

Wulfin said:


> I can answer your first one and YES (though I think at most it’s be a few days, Karen can correct me on the timeline though)!


Thank you. So I would presume that the smaller and less developed pups might be a week or so "younger" than the larger ones? Then what triggers labor and delivery, the younger pups or the older? (NO! I do not want to become a breeder.)


----------



## Melissa Brill

LeleRF said:


> Wha wha what? 😮 🤯 I had no idea that was possible! Just imagine the complications that would cause in humans! Oh perish the thought!
> 
> Thanks for asking the question, Popi!


Fun fact - it actually could happen in humans too (with fraternal twins) 
"Fraternal twins are the result of hyperovulation, the release of multiple eggs in a single cycle. Superfecundation describes a situation in which each of the eggs are fertilized by sperm from different men, leading them to have different biological fathers (making the twins half-siblings). The appropriate term to describe this situation is heteropaternal superfecundation. " DNA tests are used for this too.


----------



## 31818

LeleRF said:


> Wha wha what? 😮 🤯 I had no idea that was possible! Just imagine the complications that would cause in humans! Oh perish the thought!


You bring up a good point about humans. Identical twins result from splitting one egg. Fraternal twins result from the co-development of two separate eggs. I guess that it is theoretically possible for human fraternal twins to have different fathers under the right circumstances.

So, this brings up another question. PANDA had 5 distinctly different pups resulting from 5 different eggs. Do dogs ever have identical twins in the same litter?


----------



## Wulfin

According to this article it has happened before, but is extremely rare. A dog has given birth to the first identical twin puppies


----------



## LeleRF

Melissa Brill said:


> Fun fact - it actually could happen in humans too (with fraternal twins)
> "Fraternal twins are the result of hyperovulation, the release of multiple eggs in a single cycle. Superfecundation describes a situation in which each of the eggs are fertilized by sperm from different men, leading them to have different biological fathers (making the twins half-siblings). The appropriate term to describe this situation is heteropaternal superfecundation. " DNA tests are used for this too.


How did I get through ‘erhm’ years of my life without knowing that?! Surely there are books or at least movies about this potentially explosive situation! If not, I think may I have just _conceived_ the idea for my very first novel right here! 😜


----------



## Melissa Brill

Ricky Ricardo said:


> ... Do dogs ever have identical twins in the same litter?


When we were raising Dals, we didn't do DNA testing to check, but I would swear we had identical twins in one litter - since all Dalmatians have different spot patterns and no two are the same (except, I would think hypothetically identical twins that are genetically identical) - we had two whose spot patterns weren't just similar but were exactly the same.


----------



## Dexter and Reia’s mom

Wow, I’m offline for a bit and SO much happens! Congrats Karen and Panda on some beautiful puppies❤ So enjoying this thread!


----------



## Mikki

krandall said:


> So, overnight update..
> 
> . * I woke during the night to find her trying to get on my bed (tummy too sore to jump up) and saw that she had put ALL the puppies UNDER the vet fleece, on top of the heating pad! *
> 
> View attachment 174143


Awwwww! Mama Panda was wanting her MaMa and was trying to get home. 💗


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I have a couple of questions for Karen when she has time.
> 
> 
> I believe Karen said PANDA 'hooked up' with HEBEE three times over a one or two week period. Since PANDA had a litter of five, could individual pups have been conceived at different hook ups? In other words, can some of the pups be at different ages depending when they were conceived, maybe a week apart?
> At what point do you decide at what age pups will available to be sent to their forever homes?


As Michelle said, yes, with live cover, you typically want at least two, preferably 3 ties if you and the stud owner have time. They are soaced with a “day off” in between, for two reasons. First because sperm survives for several days, and second so that the boy’s sperm level recovers in between. He can TIe many more times than he can actually “deliver the goods”. 😉 ( true of humans too... after having a VERY hard time conceiving my first, I know ALL about the importance of timing for humans! 😉

In our case, we did not just let the dogs tell us, since they do not live together, and it was important to get her pregnant THIS time. So I paid for progesterone (blood) tests every 2 days during that period too, so that we could time breeding to hit her most fertile period. And yes, these pupies do not come from a single egg and sperm that divide. They are all separate eggs that hook up with separate sperm swimming around in there. THAT SAID, it makes NO DIFFERENCE when the actual sex act takes place. The eggs all implant into the uterus at approximately the same time, and start to divide and become puppies. That all happens in response to the mother’s hormones. Until then, think of it as if it were in vitro fertilization of eggs and sperm in a dish... but inside the mom. It is the implantation that starts the puppies growing. So they are all the same age, no matter how many times they mated (or how many studs were involved. (Incidentally, Panda is from a dual sired litter too. She has 2 full siblings, and 6 half sibling littermates)


Ricky Ricardo said:


> You bring up a good point about humans. Identical twins result from splitting one egg. Fraternal twins result from the co-development of two separate eggs. I guess that it is theoretically possible for human fraternal twins to have different fathers under the right circumstances.
> 
> So, this brings up another question. PANDA had 5 distinctly different pups resulting from 5 different eggs. Do dogs ever have identical twins in the same litter?


I suppose it is POSSIBLE, in practice, I haven’r heard of it. That would mean that they would be delivered in the same sack on the same placenta, so it would be pretty obvious.


Wulfin said:


> According to this article it has happened before, but is extremely rare. A dog has given birth to the first identical twin puppies


It seems to be SO rare that every article I could find (and there are quite a few!) refer to this same pair!


----------



## krandall

LeleRF said:


> How did I get through ‘erhm’ years of my life without knowing that?! Surely there are books or at least movies about this potentially explosive situation! If not, I think may I have just _conceived_ the idea for my very first novel right here! 😜


Must have been quite the party?


----------



## krandall

Melissa Brill said:


> When we were raising Dals, we didn't do DNA testing to check, but I would swear we had identical twins in one litter - since all Dalmatians have different spot patterns and no two are the same (except, I would think hypothetically identical twins that are genetically identical) - we had two whose spot patterns weren't just similar but were exactly the same.


I would think you’d know if you were there at the whelping, because the puppies would be in the same sack, with the same placenta attached to two cords...


----------



## MMoore

Melissa Brill said:


> Fun fact - it actually could happen in humans too (with fraternal twins)
> "Fraternal twins are the result of hyperovulation, the release of multiple eggs in a single cycle. Superfecundation describes a situation in which each of the eggs are fertilized by sperm from different men, leading them to have different biological fathers (making the twins half-siblings). The appropriate term to describe this situation is heteropaternal superfecundation. " DNA tests are used for this too.


I just read an article this morning about a woman in England who had twins conceived three weeks apart. Extremely rare - called superfetation. Babies were born at the same time, but one was much smaller and about three weeks behind her older brother, developmentally. (Sounds like something out of the National Enquirer, but it was in the Washington Post!)


----------



## Melissa Brill

krandall said:


> I would think you’d know if you were there at the whelping, because the puppies would be in the same sack, with the same placenta attached to two cords...


True - but I was around 12 at the time and don't even remember if I was there (though my parents were) - or if they noticed/ made note of them being in the same placenta.


----------



## ShamaMama

No time to read, but I keep scanning for more PHOTOS ...

💚💛🧡💜💙


----------



## krandall

Melissa Brill said:


> True - but I was around 12 at the time and don't even remember if I was there (though my parents were) - or if they noticed/ made note of them being in the same placenta.


Plus, I know that depending on how the whelping is going, it can get pretty darned hectic at times. Things can get missed in the flurry.

...or a whole whelping can be missed and a litter found on the garage floor!


----------



## krandall

It has been a VERY busy day, where Panda came down with something called “milk fever”... very common in dairy cattle, I am familiar wit it from my days on the horse farm, and I recognized it arpt once in Panda at 5AM when she was clearly disoriented and confused, rushing around the room, panting, trying to burrow under things, pushing into FURNITURE and MOVING it. She NEVER tried to hurt her babies (and they can savage puppies in this state) but she was clearly HIGHLY distressed. I took one look at her and had a good idea what was going on. Fortunately, I had calcium supplement on hand and gave her some. It helped. I gave her more two ophours later and called the vet when they opened at 8AM.

They confirmed my guess, and said that I had turned it around by giving her the calcium when I did. They increased the amount of calcium I had given her to twice that dose for as long as she is nursing, twice a day. 

Meanwhile, the puppies still are not gaining as much weight as they would like (not totally unsurprising after a C-section, but a balancing act. You don’t want to supplement too soon or too much or you can interfere with the mom’s milk coming in. At the same time, you can’t wait TOO long without putting the puppies in danger. They had hour her on a nasal spray form of oxytocin to help her milk come in. But I guess they hadn’t really thought about the fact that a human nasal spray device (which this is) doesn’t FIT in a toy dog’s nostril. As a result, I was not at all sure, I was getting the full dose into her. OTOH, it is a powerful drug, and you DON’T want to overdose it, so I had been reluctant to give her too much by spraying it again. So they switched her to an injectible form.

What a difference! I came home, gave her the first shot, her milk let down and the puppies started feeding like they haven’t fed since they were born! They fell off her like fat little ticks into a sleepy, shiny pile and didn’t wake up until it was time to nurse again. I am HOPING we will see a real weight gain tonight or tomorrow morning!

So mom and puppies are doing fine, but *I  *needed a glass of wine after today! LOL!


----------



## Cassandra

Wow..that is all I can say. You definitely deserve a glass of good wine. Beautiful pictures also. So good that you had the calcium supplement ready. So many things to watch out for in these early days.


----------



## LeleRF

May I suggest the following wine glass 😉. Truly though, poor Panda has been through quite a lot in the past several days. How fortunate you have that experience and were able to identify what was happening. Sending positive vibes for all smooth sailing from here and putting the needed weight on the little darlings.


----------



## krandall

Cassandra said:


> Wow..that is all I can say. You definitely deserve a glass of good wine. Beautiful pictures also. So good that you had the calcium supplement ready. So many things to watch out for in these early days.


The vet’s office told me a good trick for the back pocket, which can also be used for a dog with an upset tummy... you can give a dog a half a REGULAR STRENGTH Tums as EITHER a calcium supplement in a case like this OR for an upset tummy.


----------



## krandall

LeleRF said:


> May I suggest the following wine glass 😉. Truly though, poor Panda has been through quite a lot in the past several days. How fortunate you have that experience and were able to identify what was happening. Sending positive vibes for all smooth sailing from here and putting the needed weight on the little darlings.
> 
> View attachment 174164


I would have LOVED that glass of wine, but seeing as I have to set my alarm for 3AM to give her another dose of meds, I think I best pass on that. I WILL admit that on my way home from the vet’s office I detoured past the just-opened for the season ice cream stand and bought myself a BIG ice cream sundae! LOL!


----------



## Sheri

Oh, man. Poor Panda! The thought of her confused and banging around the room an even moving the furniture breaks my heart. I'm glad you had the knowledge of what she needed and got her started right away on that, and then got the vet as soon as they opened! How traumatic. What a relief to find a better dosing for the ocytocin, too! I hope the vet is learning and remembers these things, too, about working with toy sized dogs. 

They puppies' coats are so shiny! And the little red and white one looks to be having more color show. They are precious. Thank you for the photos.


----------



## LWalks

Wow you have had quite a few days! Mama Panda and her babies are looking radiant despite the challenges 😍


----------



## Molly120213

After reading about all of the different things that have come up since Panda went into labor, it really emphasizes how complex and dangerous having a litter of puppies can be. This should be a lesson to people who think it would be fun to ”have a litter” when they don’t have the knowledge, resources or breeders to mentor them and assist them through this process. Thank God, Karen, that you have the knowledge you do to pick up on all these situations that have needed your attention so far!


----------



## Melissa Brill

krandall said:


> Plus, I know that depending on how the whelping is going, it can get pretty darned hectic at times. Things can get missed in the flurry.
> 
> ...or a whole whelping can be missed and a litter found on the garage floor!


Definitely especially in bigger litters - and if I remember correctly this particular litter was around 10...


----------



## 31818

Okay, the DOGFATHER is now taking bets for when the eyes will open and see their world for the first time. Closest predictor wins. Cash only!


----------



## Veneita

What a journey with all your effort in keeping your little family healthy!! Kudos, Karen!!


----------



## krandall

Molly120213 said:


> After reading about all of the different things that have come up since Panda went into labor, it really emphasizes how complex and dangerous having a litter of puppies can be. This should be a lesson to people who think it would be fun to ”have a litter” when they don’t have the knowledge, resources or breeders to mentor them and assist them through this process. Thank God, Karen, that you have the knowledge you do to pick up on all these situations that have needed your attention so far!


AND I have a great repro vet AND 4 experience breeder mentor friends I can call on with questions and in emergencies. I have had Pam on speed dial for the tough stuff! She has seen and done everything in all her years of breeding!


----------



## krandall

Melissa Brill said:


> Definitely especially in bigger litters - and if I remember correctly this particular litter was around 10...


Yeah, Panda’s litter is the biggest Havanese litter I’ve ever heard of... 11 puppies, 9 surviving. Her breeder almost DIDN’T survive. LOL! She actually sold all her whelping stuff right after the litter, although she later changed her mind, and has had a number of lovely (reasonably sized) litters since.


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Okay, the DOGFATHER is now taking bets for when the eyes will open and see their world for the first time. Closest predictor wins. Cash only!


LOL!


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Okay, the DOGFATHER is now taking bets for when the eyes will open and see their world for the first time. Closest predictor wins. Cash only!


I SO lost the bet on sexes, I’m not making any more bets! LOL!


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> I SO lost the bet on sexes, I’m not making any more bets! LOL!


Okay Karen, you have been directly involved in 7 births, 2 of your own and 5 with PANDA. Out of those 7 you have had 6 males and 1 female. The DOGFATHER has had several graduate level courses in statistics. So in your particular and specific case, with a pregnancy with which you are directly involved, what are the chances that you will deliver a female on your (PANDA or another female you might own) next pregnancy?


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

OMG! Karen, after reading about all you have gone through, I would never, EVER want to be a breeder!


----------



## Milo's Mom

Karen
I cried happy tears when I read about the birth of these five beauties. After losing Brookie, anything puppy makes me cry. Congratulations to all of you! Hope you are recovering as well and getting some rest.
Joyce


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Okay Karen, you have been directly involved in 7 births, 2 of your own and 5 with PANDA. Out of those 7 you have had 6 males and 1 female. The DOGFATHER has had several graduate level courses in statistics. So in your particular and specific case, with a pregnancy with which you are directly involved, what are the chances that you will deliver a female on your (PANDA or another female you might own) next pregnancy?


Wait, what? I don’t even understand the question. LOL! What are the chances I’ll have girl puppies in another litter? Very cute. Trick question.
I’ll answer it this way. WHETHER I will have another litter sometime in the future is NOT directly tied to whether I keep a girl or boy puppy from this litter. I am not ruling out ever having another litter. I CAN tell you that it is EXTREMELY unlikely that I would ever become a breeder who had a litter (or more) every year, or having a “brood bitch” who has litters time after time. I enjoy working with my dogs much too much for that, plus I enjoy traveling too much.

This whole process, even without Covid, has pretty much taken up my life from Oct. 20 through June 21. There are times when I could have done local things during that period, of course. But I could not have planned foreign travel, because that has to be done far enough in advance that you just can’t plan it around when your girl MIGHT go into heat. (which then dictates when she will need to be bred, when she will whelp, and then the INSANE next 10 weeks!) This was a good time for me to do it, and I am REALLY glad I did. I am THRILLED that I will have a “bred by” puppy to bring along. It will be the most INSANELY expensive of my dogs. (Don’t EVER think this is a cheap way to get yourself a dog! LOL) But for me, it will be worth every penny, and I will have the thrill of knowing that from start to finish, for good or bad, this is, in the MOST real way, my “designer dog”.  

As far as what sexes might be in a future “maybe” litter, I can tell you one thing with absolute certainty. There is a 50% chance that every individual puppy will be a girl and a 50% chance that every individual puppy will be a boy. That’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it! LOL!


----------



## krandall

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> OMG! Karen, after reading about all you have gone through, I would never, EVER want to be a breeder!


Me either! LOL!


----------



## krandall

Milo's Mom said:


> Karen
> I cried happy tears when I read about the birth of these five beauties. After losing Brookie, anything puppy makes me cry. Congratulations to all of you! Hope you are recovering as well and getting some rest.
> Joyce


❤


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> Wait, what?


Before answering your question, I did throw some irrelevant information into the proposition. For example, you as a human have no relation to any future pregnancy by PANDA (I realize that will never happen in either case). Therefore, IF PANDA were to become pregnant again, having given birth to 4 males and 1 male, what are the chances of any future fetus would be a female?

Before I answer, it is best to review the incidence of male/female fetuses in mammals. In nature, approximate conceived fetuses are 51% male and 49% females because of the way "X" and "Y" chromosomes work (which is beyond the scope of a short answer). So, generally speaking, slightly more males are born than females. BUT, more females survive birth and their first year than males because females tend to be the stronger, healthier gender  in gestation and birth.

In conclusion, one might think that because PANDA had only 20% females in her litter than there would be a greater chance her next born (in another litter which in this case isn't going to happen) would be a female. That is not the case. Every conceived fetus, individually, has an approximately a 50/50 chance of being either gender (with a very slight advantage to a male). I give Karen credit for a correct answer, it is close enough without splitting hairs.


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Before answering your question, I did throw some irrelevant information into the proposition. For example, you as a human have no relation to any future pregnancy by PANDA (I realize that will never happen in either case). Therefore, IF PANDA were to become pregnant again, having given birth to 4 males and 1 male, what are the chances of any future fetus would be a female?
> 
> Before I answer, it is best to review the incidence of male/female fetuses in mammals. In nature, approximate conceived fetuses are 51% male and 49% females because of the way "X" and "Y" chromosomes work (which is beyond the scope of a short answer). So, generally speaking, slightly more males are born than females. BUT, more females survive birth and their first year than males because females tend to be the stronger, healthier gender  in gestation and birth.
> 
> In conclusion, one might think that because PANDA had only 20% females in her litter than there would be a greater chance her next born (in another litter which in this case isn't going to happen) would be a female. That is not the case. Every conceived fetus, individually, has an approximately a 50/50 chance of being either gender (with a very slight advantage to a male). I give Karen credit for a correct answer, it is close enough without splitting hairs.


LOL! I just like to make it clear at EVERY opportunity that I am not in this on a recurring basis. I can’t tell you how many people have contacted me, I’ve told them that I already have more people on my “waiting list than I have puppies for, and they ask if they can keep them on the list for Panda’s NEXT litter. Um... Panda does not WANt a “next litter. I don’t think the wanted a “next litter BEFORE the “zipper” routine. I think her view is even less positive now... even though she is DEFINITELY enjoying her puppies!!!

As for me, I am sitting here with my second glass of wine for the evening. The problem is, I didn’t get to DRINK the first glass of wine. I cleaned THAT one up off the kitchen floor, along with the glass. It is pretty astounding how far both glass and wine travel when they hit tile from counter height. And I can’t even blame a dog. I think I’m tired. Or it is just that the adrenalin of the first few days is finally seeping out of my body.


----------



## krandall

On a more FUN note, Panda wants me to share her apre bath photos from today. She says she could ALMOST go back in the show ring, as long as the judge didn’t put put his hand under his skirt and feel her boobies. Then his hand might get wet. But her tail might have stayed permanently red if I’d let it go much longer, and I know red dogs are all the rage these days, but...

















In our bath session I also was pleased to see that one of the ADVANTAGES of working with a specialty repro practice that caters to “breed” and “show” people is that without me even mentioning it, and even under emergency circumstances, they shaved just a minimal amount to put her IV in:








Now, this is all that is necessary, ESPECIALLY on a white Havanese. But the number of times I’ve argued with a tech over this for a very minor, elective procedure. If we’d ended up somewhere in an ER, I am sure it would have been the “whole ring”, and probably a big one. I’ve seen ridiculously large IV shaves on dogs for totally NON emergency spay and neuter procedures. Yet they were able to do this with her.

The other AMAZING thing that I just found out this morning is that my Repro vet actually has a “lactation specialist”! How cool is that! Because of the problems Panda has had with her milk coming in, I talked with her this morning about the puppies weight gains (all pronounced good, and am supposed to check in with her again tomorrow, just to make sure that things are still going well. While in the best of all worlds, one wouldn’t NEED these services, it’s fantastic to have them available when you DO have a problem.


----------



## BoosDad

Panda - Congratulations! Your pups are adorable.


----------



## LWalks

krandall said:


> On a more FUN note, Panda wants me to share her apre bath photos from today. She says she could ALMOST go back in the show ring, as long as the judge didn’t put put his hand under his skirt and feel her boobies. Then his hand might get wet. But her tail might have stayed permanently red if I’d let it go much longer, and I know red dogs are all the rage these days, but...
> 
> View attachment 174168
> View attachment 174169
> 
> 
> In our bath session I also was pleased to see that one of the ADVANTAGES of working with a specialty repro practice that caters to “breed” and “show” people is that without me even mentioning it, and even under emergency circumstances, they shaved just a minimal amount to put her IV in:
> View attachment 174170
> 
> Now, this is all that is necessary, ESPECIALLY on a white Havanese. But the number of times I’ve argued with a tech over this for a very minor, elective procedure. If we’d ended up somewhere in an ER, I am sure it would have been the “whole ring”, and probably a big one. I’ve seen ridiculously large IV shaves on dogs for totally NON emergency spay and neuter procedures. Yet they were able to do this with her.
> 
> The other AMAZING thing that I just found out this morning is that my Repro vet actually has a “lactation specialist”! How cool is that! Because of the problems Panda has had with her milk coming in, I talked with her this morning about the puppies weight gains (all pronounced good, and am supposed to check in with her again tomorrow, just to make sure that things are still going well. While in the best of all worlds, one wouldn’t NEED these services, it’s fantastic to have them available when you DO have a problem.


Glad all are doing well, and she looks gorgeous after her spa day! Next time my guy needs an IV I’m showing them this picture.... every vet always seem to cut an enormous band that takes months to grow out!


----------



## Mikki

Regarding Sex Potential in humans. There's not really a 50/50 chance or 51/49% of chance of having a girl or boy. The Father's Sperm decides the sex not the Mother's Egg. Some men are prone to producing more female or male sperm ending up with a large family of girls or boys - if one keeps trying to balance things out. 

If this is true in dogs and IF you want to increase the chance of more birthing 🎂more females than males, then I'd think you'd look for a Male Dog that has produced a lot of females.


----------



## Mikki

Panda is lookin' good. Beautiful! Havanese. I'm sure her puppies will be gorgeous.


----------



## LeleRF

Gorgeous! Panda looks like a million bucks and more importantly probably FEELS like it after the past week.


----------



## 31818

Mikki said:


> There's not really a 50/50 chance or 51/49% of chance of having a girl or boy.


I don't disagree with your premise with regards to an individual dog (or human). Some individual male dogs may tend to produce more males or females over a brief period of time. However if you look at the canine species as a whole and statistical probability, approximately 51% are male and 49% female at conception. Just like flipping a coin several times, the coin may come up 'heads' 10 times in a row, however on the 11th flip, the coin has a 50/50 chance of coming up either 'heads' or 'tails' - the statistical probability starts anew on each successive flip, the statistical probability is not cumulative.


----------



## krandall

Mikki said:


> Regarding Sex Potential in humans. There's not really a 50/50 chance or 51/49% of chance of having a girl or boy. The Father's Sperm decides the sex not the Mother's Egg. Some men are prone to producing more female or male sperm ending up with a large family of girls or boys - if one keeps trying to balance things out.
> 
> If this is true in dogs and IF you want to increase the chance of more birthing 🎂more females than males, then I'd think you'd look for a Male Dog that has produced a lot of females.


And like with Humans, it can be influenced by timing. But I can’t remember right now how that works. I THINK I remember that breeding later is likely to give you more males, but I can’t remember for sure. The resoning behind THIS is that the male and female producing sperm die off at different times. So if there are more male-producing sperm around when the eggs are ready, there is a greater chance they will get to the eggs first.

Or something like that. I just wanted a good size litter of healthy puppies! We didn’t try to influence sex ratios!


----------



## 31818

@krandall when you have a minute 😂 , the puppies are now a week old. Can you give us an approximation what percentage of weight they have gained in that week.

muchas gracias


----------



## krandall

Well, weight gain has been a problem. It is not unexpected for ALL puppies to lose weight in the first couple of days, and it is not unexpected for pups to lose weight for up to 3 days after a C-section. But Panda has been having a hard time getting her milk production up. We have been monitoring the puppies VERY carefully to make sure they do not suffer as a result of this, and she and they have been checked by the vet several times, as well as me weighing them twice a day. 

The PROBLEM is that they are receiving JUST enough milk form her that they VIGOROUSLY refuse the idea of supplemental feeding via a bottle. (And I mean, if they could speak English, I’d be washing their little mouths out with SOAP!!!) Panda is on three different meds to increase her milk production and let-down. Two of those are oral, and she can take them long term. The third is injectible Oxytocin, which I have to give her every 6 hours. This makes a HUGE difference, and on the days she has gotten it, the puppies gain exactly as they should (10% per day). But it is a powerful drug, and not one we want her on long-term, for her sake. 

So, after we were very hopeful and took her back off the Oxytocin the other day and their weight gain again dropped below 10% (not a lot, but that is the base line of what we want to see) we were back at the vet this AM, learning to tube feed the pups, so that I can supplement them, and learning exactly the protocol of if/then and how much for supplementation.

Tubing SOUNDS scary and “extreme”. But it is actually safer than bottle feeding for supplementation, especially for puppies that fight it, because there is NO danger of the puppies aspirating any formula into their lungs, which could cause a fatal pneumonia. It is also quick, so the puppies are away from mom for the shortest amount of time possible. It is also not particularly stressful for the pups. the vet told me ahead of time, and I was pleased to see that she was right, that once you open their mouth, they pretty much swallow the tube. You gently and slowly syringe in the correct amount of formula, then remove the tube. The puppies don’t seem to mind at all!

As far as percentages, I don’t think it even makes any sense calculating at this point. They are only 6 days old, not a week... they were born a week ago Monday at 4:30 PM  Even then, there is no “rule of thumb”, for week old puppies. The daily goal is 10% per day AFTER the first 2 days, when most puppies lose weight. But these guys have only met that target on a couple of days. So it is going to take them a little longer to catch up.
The next “rule of thumb” target, for normal, vaginal birth litter puppies, which these puppies may or may not make, would be that you would LIKE to see them double their birth weight by 10 days. Frankly, looking at their weight chart right now, I kind of doubt it. On most litters, the breeder has stopped weighing twice a day after the third day, and only needs to weigh once a day. We are monitoring these guys more closely, and still weighing twice a day just to make SURE they continue to get everthing they need to grow into strong, healthy little dogs even if mom is having trouble with her milk. 

They are fat, shiny and vigorous. The vets are very happy with how they look and with their weight gains; it is just that there is not a lot of margin for error with such small, young animals, so we need to be very careful, just as you would be with neonatal humans that had an unusual start into the world.

In our exhaustive approach to solving the milk supply problem, I read that acupuncture can be very useful in helping bitches that are having problems after C-section. I talked to my repro vet about this, and she agreed, but they don’t have a skilled practitioner in-house. However, I have a good, long-time friend who is an equine vet and acupuncturist. While she does not normally work on small animals, for Panda she agreed to make a (long distance!) house call. She came out this afternoon and did acupuncture on Panda, also leaving me with insteuctions for continued daily acupressure on the most important points.

I have never personally had acupuncture, so was interested in the process. Panda didn’t mind the needles at all, and they actually fall out by themselves after a few minutes.

Only time will tell, of course, but I feel like we have left no stone unturned. She is being an exemplary mom, and it is frustrating that she doesn’t have enough milk of her own. But we will make the best of it. The puppies are doing great. Even the “smallest” is still a good sized Havanese puppy and several people have jokingly suggested that perhaps we should change Cadbury’s name from Cadbury Bunny to Cadbury Moose! LOL! (And remember, these birth sizes don’t necessarily mean anything in terms of their long-term sizes... they have more to do with where their eggs were implanted in the uterus)

Cuteness Photos attached!:


Ducky using Cabury as a hot water bottle. They ALL seem to use the big brother this way. He is ALWAYS at the bottom of the puppy pile!









Mama having some one-on-one time with Jelly Bean.









Peeps has joined the milk bar.









Pretty little Chirp, sound asleep.









Just too cute! LOOK at that shiny butt!!!


----------



## mudpuppymama

Many years ago one of my vocal cords became paralyzed following a flu shot. The doctors only gave me a ten percent chance of ever getting my voice back. After six months, I tried acupuncture and a month later my voice started to come back. I am not sure if the acupuncture did it or it just came back on its own, but it sure can’t hurt anything. Many people swear by it. Hoping it works for Panda!


----------



## Heather's

Oh goodness Karen.. so much to think about! Just curious how you know the feeding tube is in the stomach? Such beautiful puppies...so shiny. 🤗 That little cream and red is just precious holding on to the little black puppy. 🥰


----------



## krandall

Heather's said:


> Oh goodness Karen.. so much to think about! Just curious how you know the feeding tube is in the stomach? Such beautiful puppies...so shiny. 🤗 That little cream and red is just precious holding on to the little black puppy. 🥰


Two ways. You need to measure the length of tube from the puppy’s nose to the end of their last rib. If the tube goes in that far, you CAN’T be in their lungs. Then, to be extra sure, you GENTLY pinch their toes. If they vocalize, you have it in their stomach, as thy could not if you had it in their wind pipe. Obviously, if you had it in their trachea, you would NOT introduce any liquid, but would pull it out and start again. But seeing how the baby mostly swallows the tube, I also suspect that they might struggle and complain if you got it in the wrong place.

Interestingly, the other big danger is tubing a cold puppy. You need to take their their temperature before tubing, as you can kill a puppy whose temperature is below 99° by tube feeding them at that time.

If you are interested in seeing exactly how it is done, here is a video on the Revival website:


----------



## 31818

Thank you so much Karen for your detailed explanations. This is very educational for all of us and we are able to experience the whelping/first days vicariously. And as the DOGFATHER, I have a vested interest in this litter!


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Thank you so much Karen for your detailed explanations. This is very educational for all of us and we are able to experience the whelping/first days vicariously. And as the DOGFATHER, I have a vested interest in this litter!


Well, do keep in mind that I got thrown in the deep end of the pool with this end... Many litters are born in cardboard boxes under the back porch and mom is lucky if she gets table scraps... And the puppies STILL grow up to end up in a shelter somewhere! LOL!


----------



## LeleRF

Thanks, Karen, for continuing to keep us updated (adoring these precious pics!🥰) and educated as well. I sense that we’re all feeling quite emotionally invested with you on this journey. Your dedication, intuition, loving care and prowess through it all has been impressive and quite touching.

Is Panda recovering well with her incision? I feel for the poor girl!


----------



## krandall

LeleRF said:


> Thanks, Karen, for continuing to keep us updated (adoring these precious pics!🥰) and educated as well. I sense that we’re all feeling quite emotionally invested with you on this journey. Your dedication, intuition, loving care and prowess through it all has been impressive and quite touching.
> 
> Is Panda recovering well with her incision? I feel for the poor girl!


Her incision is healing AMAZINGLY quickly!!! It was non-tender to palpation by the vet within 3 days. They somehow did the stitches so they are hidden, so the puppies have nothing to catch their little claws on. I have seen C-secrions on other girls that looked like those pre-school lace-up sewing cards. Panda’s is very large because they really needed to get a lot of puppies out FAST. But they really did a fantastic job. Sometime when she’s out of the box and not covered in puppies, I’ll try to get a photo!


----------



## LeleRF

krandall said:


> Her incision is healing AMAZINGLY quickly!!! It was non-tender to palpation by the vet within 3 days. They somehow did the stitches so they are hidden, so the puppies have nothing to catch their little claws on. I have seen C-secrions on other girls that looked like those pre-school lace-up sewing cards. Panda’s is very large because they really needed to get a lot of puppies out FAST. But they really did a fantastic job. Sometime when she’s out of the box and not covered in puppies, I’ll try to get a photo!


Hey now! That is fantastic news! 👏


----------



## Veneita

It’s heartwarming to hear of their progress! Your little family is in such wonderful hands between you and your team, Karen!!


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

Karen - Oh my word. I never knew puppy birthing could be so stressful! I just imagined they would just pop out with no problems. This thread is almost more than I can handle! 😳


----------



## krandall

One week old today!!!


----------



## Heather's

Just precious! 🥰


----------



## LWalks

krandall said:


> One week old today!!!
> View attachment 174197
> View attachment 174198
> View attachment 174199
> View attachment 174200
> View attachment 174201


So adorable!!!


----------



## Ditto's Mom

Adorable furbabies! Love watching them grow.


----------



## LeleRF

Hooray for the Easter brood! 🐣 The red markings are really coming in on Ducky! I just love them all piled up on one another. 🥰

BTW, these photos are amazing. You aren’t using a phone for these are you? If so it‘s a whole lot better than my iPhone.


----------



## krandall

LeleRF said:


> Hooray for the Easter brood! 🐣 The red markings are really coming in on Ducky! I just love them all piled up on one another. 🥰
> 
> BTW, these photos are amazing. You aren’t using a phone for these are you? If so it‘s a whole lot better than my iPhone.


It IS an iPhone! My husband bought me the iPhone 11 as an early Christmas present. I am a professional photographer, and have really been a “phone photo snob” until now, whenever I’veused my phone for a quick shot, I have WISHED I’d taken the time to pull out my “real” cameras. But this thing is remarkably able, and in some situations, like sticking your hands down low inside a whelping box, you can just gr it into places you can’t GET a big DSLR or even my micro 4/3rds! 

I keep thinking I’ve got to pull out the “real” camera one of these days, but so far, ever photo I’ve taken has been with the phone.


----------



## juliav

Oh my! They are so adorable! The black and white parti is pulling at my heart strings. Lol


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

They are so cute! Aren't you glad you don't have to purchase and have to develop film anymore?!! 😊


----------



## krandall

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> They are so cute! Aren't you glad you don't have to purchase and have to develop film anymore?!! 😊


Well, I find that I STILL spend a lot of time developing photos... just in Lightroom rather than sending them out or in the dark room! LOL! Not so much these, because these are just snap shots. But when I'm doing real photography, there is still a lot that goes into it!


----------



## LeleRF

I apparently have a iPhone 11 as well (hubby really is the one that deals with upgrades & such) but my photos do NOT look that good, that’s for sure. It must be your training/education. I was curious how the tube feeding was going for the pups? Is it putting them back on track? I watched that video and boy, I’d do it if I had too but I reallllyyy hope I’d never be in that position to be honest. The whole possible aspiration thing... eeeeee makes me weak in the knees!


----------



## LeleRF

juliav said:


> Oh my! They are so adorable! The black and white parti is pulling at my heart strings. Lol


I knowwww isn’t he precious?! From the pics it seems like they all have some adorable little marking. That red & white little guy is a beauty too, but I’ve always been partial to gingers, lol 😆


----------



## krandall

LeleRF said:


> I knowwww isn’t he precious?! From the pics it seems like they all have some adorable little marking. That red & white little guy is a beauty too, but I’ve always been partial to gingers, lol 😆


Here was Ducky at bed time last night... Big yawn and stretch!!!


----------



## krandall

I gave up on the tube feeding. I believe that if you are experienced with it, it may be the “best” way to do it, but I am not experienced with it. And the “training” I got from the vet was watching through an open window because of Covid. Not hands on, and no better (worse really, because of traffic noise) than the dozens of YouTube videos I’d watched. 

But the puppies and I came to a compromise and have decided that we can all use the miracle nipple. while Panda feeds them, I offer it to anyone who is having trouble getting enough milk and top them off. It seems to be working great. They are gaining well, it is TOTALLY non-stressful for her, the puppies and for me. The only thing suffering is my back! LOL!

The hand feeding is having an added bonus. Even above “Puppy Culture” handling, these puppies are SO used to my hands in the box, I have become “mom 2”, and they charge over to my hands when they sense me in the box. Which is TOTALLY endearing, of course! Cadbury melted my heart last night when he, on his own, climbed into my hand and fell asleep. I wasn’t feeding them at the time, and I didn’t pick him up. He just wanted a cuddle. I stayed like this, with him in my hand until my arm went numb! LOL!


----------



## krandall

And for anyone who hasn’t been there, the “official” one week old photos of the puppies, with introduction, are up on my website if you want to take a peek: Easter Basket Litter — High Jump Havanese


----------



## Veneita

So sweet!! One of your many rewards as “Mom 2”!!


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> Here was Ducky at bed time last night... Big yawn and stretch!!!


I can't imagine what it is like for PANDA having 'Jaws' in your litter at feeding time! That's got to hurt!


----------



## LeleRF

Oh my heavens! I just can’t even with the cuteness! That pose Of Ducky! Pink noses, paws, bellies! Cadbury sleeping in your hand. I’m sure all the backaches, numb arms, sleep loss, extra work and worry has been worth it! Of course easy for me to say who just gets to sit here and ooh and ahh over the pics!


----------



## LWalks

Oh my, Cadbury snuggled up in your hand  Love the individual descriptions of their markings and little personalities on your site. Truly a beautiful family!


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

These photos are just so endearing! Love little Ducky with the big yawn! And Cadbury in your hand! Oh my!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

Karen what are you trying to do to us!!!!!!!

Just when I am about to declare the Ducky yawn & stretch picture the most adorable picture in the whole world EVER, you follow up with a sleeping Cadbury cuddle❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤


----------



## LeleRF

Lisa Walker said:


> Oh my, Cadbury snuggled up in your hand  Love the individual descriptions of their markings and little personalities on your site. Truly a beautiful family!


I just the saw the site update and descriptions too! Love it!


----------



## krandall

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Karen what are you trying to do to us!!!!!!!
> 
> Just when I am about to declare the Ducky yawn & stretch picture the most adorable picture in the whole world EVER, you follow up with a sleeping Cadbury cuddle❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤


I have to tell you, that melted MY heart too! It broke my BACK, but melted my heart!


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I can't imagine what it is like for PANDA having 'Jaws' in your litter at feeding time! That's got to hurt!


Not yet, because they don't have teeth and I clipped 50 claws yesterday. When they get teeth is when most moms say sayonara! LOL! (It's up to the breeder not to let that happen earlier over the claws!)


----------



## krandall

To add to the news on the Miracle nipple vs. the tube feeding. Everyone is now meeting/surpassing the 10% goal the vets want for them. So we are off the hook for the tube feeding. _I_ OTOH, spent the afternoon in the kitchen making home-made puppy formula. Now, you CAN buy puppy formula, but there are questions about how good it is for the puppies, especially in larger quantities. The more I read, the more... Well, you know the dog food rabbit hole? You can imagine. And these are little TINY animals, at a VERY formative time of life. When I read the can of commercial milk replacer... I knew I had to make my own.

I am NOT a kitchen person. My idea of cooking (there than Thanksgiving and Christmas, which I do out of "Mother's guilt", is a piece of fish or chicken on the grill and steamed veggies or a salad. We eat simple. Because I COOK simple.

I just spent over an hour making home made formula. I made a double batch, which I THINK should be enough to do me through to weaning. (Unless her milk dries up completely) NOT an easy process. Did you know that egg yolks have skins? I didn't! And you have to REMOVE the skins of the egg yolks or they will clog the little nipples? I learned how to do that! And you need to make "liver water" before you even START the recipe, because they need the taurine from THAT or it can cause all sorts of eye problems. (one of the problems with the commercial products) Never fear! You can feed the cooked liver to your bitch! (Panda says, "You ARE kidding, RIGHT?!?! First sardines, now LIVER? Are you trying to KILL me?!?!")

Even then, you need to strain the whole mess through a handkerchief. A piece of cheesecloth isn’t fine enough. Thank heavens (I guess?) that I am married to a guy who still insists on using disgusting snot rags! LOL! I don’t think he’s going to want this one back! 

Oh, and it strains SO SLOWLY that I had to put the big bowl with the colander and handkerchief in the refrigerator, because I was afraid it would go bad before it strained through. AND they say to freeze it in ice cube trays. Who has THOSE anymore? No one I checked with! We don’t. Neither did the grocery store. So I’m going to use muffin tins instead. Not as easy to fit in the freezer (HMMM... better check that they fit at all!!!) but it’s supposed to last, refrigerated for a week, so that’s not too much to defrost at once. (It lasts in the freezer for 6 months so I figure any left-overs I can donate to the local shelter)

I don’t think I REALLY wanted to learn all this. CERTAINLY not on my FIRST litter of puppies!

OK, they're worth it.


----------



## ShamaMama

Thank you so much for all this, Karen! It's the highlight of my day! So glad you got that stretch photo, and loved the hand story and photo too. When will they open their eyes?

💙💚💜🧡💛


----------



## krandall

ShamaMama said:


> Thank you so much for all this, Karen! It's the highlight of my day! So glad you got that stretch photo, and loved the hand story and photo too. When will they open their eyes?
> 
> 💙💚💜🧡💛


Between 10-14 days usually, so not too long!


----------



## NickieTwo

You clipped nails on 9 day old puppies??? I'm not even brave enough to clip adult dog nails.


----------



## LeleRF

Good grief, I’m exhausted just _READING_ all you went through with the puppy milk preparations and itty bitty nail clipping (having flashbacks to ever-so-carefully trying to clip my own baby’s way back when). I still have ice cube trays (!!!) lol and also mini muffin pans which are a great alternative. Hungh, I knew cats had to have taurine, but I didn’t know dogs did as well!

It’s GREAT news on the puppies weight! 👏👏👏 I imagine it’s still a while yet but at what age do they wean and begin eating solid food?

Amidst all your non-stop mother/doctor/pharmacist activities, thank you for continuing to post the updates and beautiful pics that bring smiles & joy to all of us! ☺


----------



## Melissa Brill

I swear, when this is done you should put it in a pamphlet/ PDF so that we all can share it with anyone who says "I want to breed my dog"


----------



## juliav

Hey Karen,
It’s official, I am coming over and kidnapping the white and black boy! He will fit perfectly with my gang. I have one white, one black and the white and black is just perfect! You have been warned. 😂🤣


----------



## 31818

juliav said:


> Hey Karen,
> It’s official, I am coming over and kidnapping the white and black boy!


Yeah, you and about a dozen other prospective owners! 😉


----------



## juliav

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Yeah, you and about a dozen other prospective owners! 😉


I know, right!


----------



## krandall

NickieTwo said:


> You clipped nails on 9 day old puppies??? I'm not even brave enough to clip adult dog nails.


You HAVE to! Their little claws are like needles! They would scratch the poor mom-dog to ribbons!


----------



## krandall

LeleRF said:


> Good grief, I’m exhausted just _READING_ all you went through with the puppy milk preparations and itty bitty nail clipping (having flashbacks to ever-so-carefully trying to clip my own baby’s way back when). I still have ice cube trays (!!!) lol and also mini muffin pans which are a great alternative. Hungh, I knew cats had to have taurine, but I didn’t know dogs did as well!
> 
> It’s GREAT news on the puppies weight! 👏👏👏 I imagine it’s still a while yet but at what age do they wean and begin eating solid food?
> 
> Amidst all your non-stop mother/doctor/pharmacist activities, thank you for continuing to post the updates and beautiful pics that bring smiles & joy to all of us! ☺


Typically they start to wean between 4-5 weeks unless mom calls it quits earlier. (Some do). The vet wants me to start to transition them starting around 3 weeks because if Panda’s milk production problems. As soon as they can stand steadily, and lap rather than suck, they start eating thin, gruel-type foods, which you slowly thicken as they get more used to “real food and as they grow teeth.


----------



## krandall

The puppies transitioned from the Miracle nipple to a (human) premie bottle this morning. They loved it and they did great! Here is Jelly Bean showing off new skills!:


----------



## krandall

krandall said:


> The puppies transitioned from the Miracle nipple to a (human) premie bottle this morning. They loved it and they did great! Here is Jelly Bean showing off new skills!:


(and, Annie, I know the camera was the “wrong” way... YOU try bottle feeding a puppy with one hand and recording video with the other! LOL!)


----------



## krandall

And a couple more adorable pix this AM:


----------



## krandall

Oh, and here are a few from the morning weigh in. (With a little help from mom)


















THAT butt needs cleaning! hold him still for me, will you? (BTW, the pile of cloth in the corner is her “allowed digging place”... to TRY to keep her from digging up the whelping box. At least it keeps her from digging up the box while I’m in the room!  The GOOD news is that she is VERY careful of the puppies in her excavations. She buries them, but lightly. They are always in a warm, comfy, sleepy pile when I “rescue” them. From her perspecive, she is probably hiding them from predators, and this stupid human keeps leaving them out in the open for all to see!








Puppy pretzel!


----------



## juliav

krandall said:


> The puppies transitioned from the Miracle nipple to a (human) premie bottle this morning. They loved it and they did great! Here is Jelly Bean showing off new skills!:


Look at him go! Love a man with a hearty appetite!


----------



## LWalks

krandall said:


> The puppies transitioned from the Miracle nipple to a (human) premie bottle this morning. They loved it and they did great! Here is Jelly Bean showing off new skills!:


The little noises are too much. So adorable! Thank you for sharing them with us!!!


----------



## Sheri

Well, good, sounds like the little black and white one has a whole waiting list... I, myself, love the mostly all black ones! The red and white one is fascinating to watch, though. I wonder if he'll get much more color?  They are all so beautiful and glossy.


----------



## krandall

Sheri said:


> Well, good, sounds like the little black and white one has a whole waiting list... I, myself, love the mostly all black ones! The red and white one is fascinating to watch, though. I wonder is he'll get much more color?  They are all so beautiful and glossy.


His markings will stay in the same place, but they are already deepening. He will most likely be darker red In the red areas. And the mostly black boys are lovely! They are shiny as two seal pups and already have distinct personalities. They just don’t pop out of a photo as much... especially mixed in with their “flashily marked” brothers.


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> Oh, and here are a few from the morning weigh in.


The 'puppy pretzel' photo is the best picture yet! It appears to me that the facial hair on the muzzles has filled in rapidly during the last week. They are starting to look like real Havanese now rather than space aliens. 

All pups are fine examples of the breed but I do have a favorite, and I am going to keep that to myself but may be a surprise to some! I predict that dog is going to have flashy, spectacular coloring. A dog you won't be able to take your eyes off of in any ring or any neighborhood.


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

krandall said:


> The puppies transitioned from the Miracle nipple to a (human) premie bottle this morning. They loved it and they did great! Here is Jelly Bean showing off new skills!:


Oh my goodness you are going to have to start posting these with health warnings...I think my heart is about to burst🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> The 'puppy pretzel' photo is the best picture yet! It appears to me that the facial hair on the muzzles has filled in rapidly during the last week. They are starting to look like real Havanese now rather than space aliens.


I was just noticing that in some of the photos too! You can JUST START to see that their hair is starting to grow!!!



Ricky Ricardo said:


> All pups are fine examples of the breed but I do have a favorite, and I am going to keep that to myself but may be a surprise to some! I predict that dog is going to have flashy, spectacular coloring. A dog you won't be able to take your eyes off of in any ring or any neighborhood.


LOL! Well... You knocked two out of the running, because two will be beautiful dogs, but it's hard to be flashy when you are all black! OTOH, how can you RESIST kissing a milk mustache? (which they BOTH have!  )

The other three will ALL be flashy, so that doesn't give us much of a hint. Ducky is a peanut, but I think he is going to be a MIGHTY peanut. Chirp is going to be a beautiful, elegant lady dressed for a formal ball. And Jelly? He's just dang cute. The Parti boy, inside and out!


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> Well... You knocked two out of the running, because two will be beautiful dogs, but it's hard to be flashy when you are all black! OTOH, how can you RESIST kissing a milk mustache? (which they BOTH have!  )


NOPE, NOPE, NOPE! Lots of all black dogs achieve greatness in the showring representing all kinds of breeds. And who wouldn't like a milk mustache on an all black dog? Put one of those black puppies with the milk mustache in a showring and give him a show name like "GOT MILK?" and he will be a contender and audience favorite!


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> NOPE, NOPE, NOPE! Lots of all black dogs achieve greatness in the showring representing all kinds of breeds. And who wouldn't like a milk mustache on an all black dog? Put one of those black puppies with the milk mustache in a showring and give him a show name like "GOT MILK?" and he will be a contender and audience favorite!


Besides, one of those "milk mustaches" just melted my heart by trying to suck on my nose when I picked him up for a cuddle! 💗 Can't get much cuter than that!


----------



## Melissa Brill

Which is the black one with the white toes???


----------



## 31818

Melissa Brill said:


> Which is the black one with the white toes???


I believe you are referring to CHIRP, the only female in the litter. She must have tip-toed through the milk one of the males spilled! But it could also be CADBURY who has white toes. A great looking litter.


----------



## krandall

Melissa Brill said:


> Which is the black one with the white toes???


All of them! LOL!

Chirp has completely white feet, that go up higher, and a white muzzle. Cadbury has a white spot on the top of his nose, and white toes on all 4 feet. Peeps has white toes on 3 feet. (and of course, on Jelly, the white goes MUCH higher!)


----------



## Mikki

krandall said:


> The puppies transitioned from the Miracle nipple to a (human) premie bottle this morning. They loved it and they did great! Here is Jelly Bean showing off new skills!:


OM Gosh! What a cute photo and those tiny sucking sounds are precious.


----------



## LeleRF

Karen, what are the weights of the pups? Curious if they are all still in the same ‘order’ as when they were born or if any have pulled ahead/dropped behind sibling’s weights. I‘ve noticed Jelly Bean’s cute little Pooh-like belly!


----------



## krandall

LeleRF said:


> Karen, what are the weights of the pups? Curious if they are all still in the same ‘order’ as when they were born or if any have pulled ahead/dropped behind sibling’s weights. I‘ve noticed Jelly Bean’s cute little Pooh-like belly!


They are still in the same general order, although the three middle ones have evened out completely (right now!) while the ones on either end have... remained on either end! They all doubled their weight in 14 days which is one of the “benchmarks” they look for, and is pretty remarkable, considering that they LOST weight for the first 3 days due to the c-section.

Weights at birth - these weights are slightly high, because they had all been tube fed at the hospital before they were sent home. (in grams... you can convert if you want  ) :

Cadbury - 226
Peeps -209
Chirp - 201
Jelly Bean - 205
Ducky - 181

Weights today at 11AM

Cadbury - 446
Peeps - 400
Chirp - 400
Jelly - 400
Ducky - 332


----------



## LeleRF

krandall said:


> They are still in the same general order, although the three middle ones have evened out completely (right now!) while the ones on either end have... remained on either end! They all doubled their weight in 14 days which is one of the “benchmarks” they look for, and is pretty remarkable, considering that they LOST weight for the first 3 days due to the c-section.
> 
> Weights at birth - these weights are slightly high, because they had all been tube fed at the hospital before they were sent home. (in grams... you can convert if you want  ) :
> 
> Cadbury - 226
> Peeps -209
> Chirp - 201
> Jelly Bean - 205
> Ducky - 181
> 
> Weights today at 11AM
> 
> Cadbury - 446
> Peeps - 400
> Chirp - 400
> Jelly - 400
> Ducky - 332


Wow, that’s fantastic! You can see them plumping up in their little bellies. Thanks for the comparison, definitely helps.


----------



## ShamaMama

krandall said:


> (and, Annie, I know the camera was the “wrong” way... YOU try bottle feeding a puppy with one hand and recording video with the other! LOL!)


Forum friends, after viewing that adorable video, I texted Karen to ask her to orient her phone horizontally so that we can see more puppy and less black screen. THEN, I scrolled down and saw this post! Oops! 😁

PSA: Try to remember to orient your phone horizontally when recording video of your puppies and dogs, because you see much more puppy/dog that way!

💛 🧡 💜 💚 💙


----------



## 31818




----------



## krandall

LeleRF said:


> Wow, that’s fantastic! You can see them plumping up in their little bellies. Thanks for the comparison, definitely helps.


 just remember that it doesn’t mean much about adult size... or much else for that matter! It only makes ME happy that they are all growing as they should be!


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> View attachment 174244


 HOW did he DO that?!?!


----------



## krandall

ShamaMama said:


> Forum friends, after viewing that adorable video, I texted Karen to ask her to orient her phone horizontally so that we can see more puppy and less black screen. THEN, I scrolled down and saw this post! Oops! 😁
> 
> PSA: Try to remember to orient your phone horizontally when recording video of your puppies and dogs, because you see much more puppy/dog that way!
> 
> 💛 🧡 💜 💚 💙


And here I TRIED to pre-empt you by putting a note with the video! LOL!


----------



## krandall

Melissa Brill said:


> I swear, when this is done you should put it in a pamphlet/ PDF so that we all can share it with anyone who says "I want to breed my dog"


THIS should scare ANY sane person off from breeding. THIS was jumping into the deep end of the pool big time! LOL!


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> HOW did he DO that?!?!


It's that RICKY again. GRRRRRRRRR. He is such a travieso malo!


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> It's that RICKY again. GRRRRRRRRR. He is such a travieso malo!


LOL! Go ahead! Blame the poor dog. We know who is the bad actor in that household!


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> THIS should scare ANY sane person off from breeding. THIS was jumping into the deep end of the pool big time! LOL!


Well, I guess we now know who has lost all their marbles on this Forum ! 🤪


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Well, I guess we now know who has lost all their marbles on this Forum ! 🤪


It has taken you THIS long to figure that out? I guess it takes one to know one! LOL!


----------



## LeleRF

krandall said:


> just remember that it doesn’t mean much about adult size... or much else for that matter! It only makes ME happy that they are all growing as they should be!


Yes, quite right! You perfectly expressed why I had inquired, to see if they were back on track with their growth and development. The nursing video really showed how beautifully they’ve caught on to the nipple. So nice to see and I am sure reassuring for you!


----------



## krandall

LeleRF said:


> Yes, quite right! You perfectly expressed why I had inquired, to see if they were back on track with their growth and development. The nursing video really showed how beautifully they’ve caught on to the nipple. So nice to see and I am sure reassuring for you!


The funny thing is that in one 24 hour period, they gained SO much that the lactation specialist (I know, who knew there was such a thing as a veterinary lactation specialist! LOL!) wanted me to measure what I was feeding them and cut it back somewhat. It was getting EASY with the big bottle and letting them drink what they wanted! Of COURSE it couldn’t STAY that easy! LOL! The problem with the human baby bottles is that they hold too much and don’t measure small enough amounts for me to be able to easily see how much each puppy is getting. So I tried to go back the the little Miracle nipples. They had temper tantrums. They are BIG KIDS now. They don’t WANT little “squirrel nipples“ thank you very much!!! The other four finally gave in with much grumbling and drank from it. Cadbury flatly refused and I had to decant his BACK into a baby bottle or he just wasn’t gonna do it! No way!

Here is a little video of Ducky with the Miracle nipple. You can TELL how mad he is! LOL!:




So, for tonight, I’ve figured out a NEW method, with five SEPARATE baby bottles. I’ll pre-measure the formula with a syringe, so I know EXACTLY how much each puppy is getting, and put that in each bottle for him or her, and put a bit more in Cadbury’s because he’s biggest and needs a bit more. They are keeping me hopping!

Oh, and other chores that got done today... everyone needed their first official Havanese butt baths. No one complained, but Chirp actually SLEPT through hers! Then I trimmed everyone’s back nails.

Dew claws need doing again, but I’m having a REAL (unexpected) problem with those. Bottle fed babies look at hands as things to suck on. I can’t keep my fingers out of their MOUTHS long enough to find their dew claws and clip them! That is DEFINITELY going to reqire a second person!!! LOL!

Panda got a beard wash along with the butt baths. She was disgusted that she was included in the general clean-up!


----------



## Veneita

Busy “Mom 2”!! And, they are such little miracles!!


----------



## 31818

Watching the video is very illuminating. Speaking specifically of Ducky, his movement, are so typical of the Havanese breed even at middle age. I really like how spunky he is. Already he is showing how confident and assertive he is. Havanese through and through. Although DUCKY is currently the smallest of the litter, I am surprised how BIG he looks. Whoever wins DUCKY will have hit the jackpot!

I hope that a couple of these pups will go to HF members so we can keep track of them as they grow. I really don't want to lose track of any of the five for personal reasons (and reports through Karen are just not the same), I am the DOGFATHER of this litter.


----------



## Mando's Mommy

I can't stop smiling at all the pictures and videos. Cuteness overload!!! 😍 💖


----------



## Melissa Brill

krandall said:


> The funny thing is that in one 24 hour period, they gained SO much that the lactation specialist (I know, who knew there was such a thing as a veterinary lactation specialist! LOL!) wanted me to measure what I was feeding them and cut it back somewhat. It was getting EASY with the big bottle and letting them drink what they wanted! Of COURSE it couldn’t STAY that easy! LOL! The problem with the human baby bottles is that they hold too much and don’t measure small enough amounts for me to be able to easily see how much each puppy is getting. So I tried to go back the the little Miracle nipples. They had temper tantrums. They are BIG KIDS now. They don’t WANT little “squirrel nipples“ thank you very much!!! The other four finally gave in with much grumbling and drank from it. Cadbury flatly refused and I had to decant his BACK into a baby bottle or he just wasn’t gonna do it! No way!
> 
> Here is a little video of Ducky with the Miracle nipple. You can TELL how mad he is! LOL!:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, for tonight, I’ve figured out a NEW method, with five SEPARATE baby bottles. I’ll pre-measure the formula with a syringe, so I know EXACTLY how much each puppy is getting, and put that in each bottle for him or her, and put a bit more in Cadbury’s because he’s biggest and needs a bit more. They are keeping me hopping!
> 
> Oh, and other chores that got done today... everyone needed their first official Havanese butt baths. No one complained, but Chirp actually SLEPT through hers! Then I trimmed everyone’s back nails.
> 
> Dew claws need doing again, but I’m having a REAL (unexpected) problem with those. Bottle fed babies look at hands as things to suck on. I can’t keep my fingers out of their MOUTHS long enough to find their dew claws and clip them! That is DEFINITELY going to reqire a second person!!! LOL!
> 
> Panda got a beard wash along with the butt baths. She was disgusted that she was included in the general clean-up!


Glad you figured out a way with a syringe and separate bottles. I was going to suggest weighing them (filling 1 bottle with the smaller bottle or the syringe and then weighing it so you knew how much to add for each pup).


----------



## ShamaMama

Thanks for all the updates and the newest video. I loved how relaxed Panda looked! I can't remember, do you do agility with Panda? Or just obedience and rally? Will her C-section affect her future performance ability?


----------



## Mikki

Karen, Human feeding all those puppies - one by one - looks exhausting. Looks like Panda appreciates the help. 

Reminds me of a friend who is on his fifth Golden Retriever who is now 10 years old. After his breeder had a litter of puppies a few years ago, she called my friend saying she had one reserved for him. 

My friend declined explaining to me, _"You know puppies are harder than babies to raise." _

That was during my Exhausted Puppy Mom stage with Patti. I Agreed!!


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Watching the video is very illuminating. Speaking specifically of Ducky, his movement, are so typical of the Havanese breed even at middle age. I really like how spunky he is. Already he is showing how confident and assertive he is. Havanese through and through. Although DUCKY is currently the smallest of the litter, I am surprised how BIG he looks. Whoever wins DUCKY will have hit the jackpot!
> 
> I hope that a couple of these pups will go to HF members so we can keep track of them as they grow. I really don't want to lose track of any of the five for personal reasons (and reports through Karen are just not the same), I am the DOGFATHER of this litter.


❤ I have to say that although I keep telling myself I am unlikely to keep Ducky, I am falling for him hard. He IS quite the character!


----------



## krandall

Melissa Brill said:


> Glad you figured out a way with a syringe and separate bottles. I was going to suggest weighing them (filling 1 bottle with the smaller bottle or the syringe and then weighing it so you knew how much to add for each pup).


I TRIED to video the entire feeding of the whole litter last night, which is pretty hilarious... I think from camera view, it’s going to look a little like a Zombie attack movie! But I must not have hit the record button, because I got nothin’. But from a FEEDING perspective, it went vey smoothly, filling 5 premie bottles ahead of time with the right amount of formula. (Extra for Cadbury). I’ll try again tonight!


----------



## krandall

ShamaMama said:


> Thanks for all the updates and the newest video. I loved how relaxed Panda looked! I can't remember, do you do agility with Panda? Or just obedience and rally? Will her C-section affect her future performance ability?


I had to stop doing agility when I got so sick. And then when I STARTED feeling better... Covid. I am not sure whether I will start back up with her in agility or stick to obedience and rally with her and start the puppy in agility. Honestly, I’m not positive whether my joints are going to hold up to really RUNNING agility after that last illness, but I’d like the puppy to at least be introduced to it.

Oh, and I don’t think her c-section will interfere with anything she needs to do in performance stuff once she is fully healed. She isn’t jumping directly up on the beds yet, but she is getting up on OUR bed using her “pregnancy box” at the end of the bed, which still requires run-jump-jump. And that is still less than 2 weeks post surgery. So I think she’s doing really well. Once she’s done with the puppies, I’ll have my chiropractor work on her too!


----------



## krandall

Mikki said:


> Karen, Human feeding all those puppies - one by one - looks exhausting. Looks like Panda appreciates the help.
> 
> Reminds me of a friend who is on his fifth Golden Retriever who is now 10 years old. After his breeder had a litter of puppies a few years ago, she called my friend saying she had one reserved for him.
> 
> My friend declined explaining to me, _"You know puppies are harder than babies to raise." _
> 
> That was during my Exhausted Puppy Mom stage with Patti. I Agreed!!


This is pretty exhausting, but I’m glad I did it! And not ALL litters start out as difficult as this one did! Usually the moms can handle most of it for the first 3 weeks. This morning, Panda woke me up at 6 and needed to go out. The whole crew needed breakfast and out at 7. Then, for the forst time since the puppies arrived, I shut Panda in with the puppies, the older dogs in with us, and went back to bed and slept until NINE!!! It felt WONDERFUL!!! And everyone survived! LOL!


----------



## Mikki

Karen .. what is your website address? When you get rested and have time you might put it at the bottom of your page with Family Dog Pic.


----------



## krandall

Mikki said:


> Karen .. what is your website address? When you get rested and have time you might put it at the bottom of your page with Family Dog Pic.


www.highjumphavanese.net

That’s a good idea... though I also don’t want to give people the idea that there will be more puppies any time soon, because there won’t be! Still, I do plan to flesh out the informational parts of the site more as I get more time.


----------



## ShamaMama

Mikki said:


> Karen .. what is your website address? When you get rested and have time you might put it at the bottom of your page with Family Dog Pic.








High Jump Havanese







www.highjumphavanese.net


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> ❤ I have to say that although I keep telling myself I am unlikely to keep Ducky, I am falling for him hard. He IS quite the character!


DING, DING, DING, since Karen is "unlikely" to keep DUCKY, I think I know which one she is going to keep by process of elimination. Doesn't matter, because every one of the bunch is a winner!

OTH, tomorrow it will be two weeks since birth.....any eyes open yet? Do they all open on the same day or do they open on different days depending on maturity? My guess is Mighty Moose CADBURY will be first to see the light of day!


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> DING, DING, DING, since Karen is "unlikely" to keep DUCKY, I think I know which one she is going to keep by process of elimination. Doesn't matter, because every one of the bunch is a winner!


If you know that, you are ahead of me! There are two top contenders for me.  (and Ducky, who keeps knocking at the door!  )



Ricky Ricardo said:


> OTH, tomorrow it will be two weeks since birth.....any eyes open yet? Do they all open on the same day or do they open on different days depending on maturity? My guess is Mighty Moose CADBURY will be first to see the light of day!


The idea of "maturity" is a bit misleading. They are really all the same gestational age, regardless of size: 






No sign of eyes yet, and I'm checking ALL.THE.TIME!!! LOL! They are getting close, I think. It's easiest to see on Ducky, of course, because his skin and fur is light colored. There can be a day or so between the group, but they all open ABOUT the same time. And it's not unusual for one eye to open before the other!

In the case of Ducky, I don't even think that it it is necessarily that he was implanted at a "poorer" place in the uterine wall. I think it is entirely possible that he got a combination of his sire's and his grandsire's on Panda's side, smaller genes. They are both much smaller Havanese than she is. That said, time will tell. You just can't tell much about adult size yet! Although within the litter, Cadbury stands out as "big" and Ducky as "small" because the other three are SO uniform in size, they are all in a perfectly average size range for Havanese puppies. None are terribly unusual. LOTS of Havanese puppies are smaller than Ducky, and some are bigger than Cadbury.


----------



## Tere

I'm going to guess that Karen keeps 2 puppies.


----------



## krandall

Tere said:


> I'm going to guess that Karen keeps 2 puppies.


THAT isn't happening! I'd have to be willing to lose a husband! LOL!


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> THAT isn't happening! I'd have to be willing to lose a husband! LOL!


Which means losing PIXEL too!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Which means losing PIXEL too!


🤣🤣🤣🤣I was just going to say keep ALL of them and Dave can visit weekends and holidays...but yes it would mean losing Pixel, gosh this is a tough one, I think Pixel has just swung it in Dave’s favour for this forum member😘


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Which means losing PIXEL too!



THAT would be sad!


----------



## krandall

GoWithTheFlo said:


> 🤣🤣🤣🤣I was just going to say keep ALL of them and Dave can visit weekends and holidays...but yes it would mean losing Pixel, gosh this is a tough one, I think Pixel has just swung it in Dave’s favour for this forum member😘


LOL!


----------



## krandall

I take it back!!! I guess the video last night DID work... it is just that my slow wireless upstairs didn't let me access it from my iPad! So here it is, warts and all. (I promised I'd share everything! Obviously, as you can here from what I say on the video, I couldn't tell where the poop had come from. We VIEWERS got a front row account of the "perpetrators"! LOL!






What you DIDN'T get to share was how much WORSE it got just after I turned the video off. Panda hadn't gotten back in the box and they ALL started pooping!!! Normally, when they are being nursed, Momma dog takes care of that pretty much as fast as it happens. I find almost no pee or poop on the bedding. Well, we had a pee and poop EXPLOSION!!! I sure had no intension of using my tongue, and baby wipes don't do as good a job. Nor was I as good at figuring out which puppy was exploding next! Fortunately, Panda returned, and between us, we quickly got things back in ship-shape, I replaced their bedding, and... I emptied the trash. FAST!!! LOL!

I have to say, I am SO glad I have this on video... it melts my heart to watch it!!! 💕

Oh, and another thing you can't see, is when I'm talking about my fingers... the best way to keep them from interfering with the nursing puppy is to offer them fingers to suck on. That usually keeps them pretty happy for a while!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

krandall said:


> I take it back!!! I guess the video last night DID work... it is just that my slow wireless upstairs didn't let me access it from my iPad! So here it is, watts and all. (I promised I'd share everything! Obviously, as you can here from what I say on the video, I couldn't tell where the poop had come from. We VIEWERS got a front row account of the "perpetrators"! LOL!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What you DIDN'T get to share was how much WORSE it got just after I turned the video off. Panda hadn't gotten back in the box and they ALL started pooping!!! Normally, when they are being nursed, Momma dog takes care of that pretty much as fast as it happens. I find almost no pee or poop on the bedding. Well, we had a pee and poop EXPLOSION!!! I sure had no intension of using my tongue, and baby wipes don't do as good a job. Nor was I as good at figuring out which puppy was exploding next! Fortunately, Panda returned, and between us, we quickly got things back i ship-shape, I replaced their bedding, and... I emptied the trash. FAST!!! LOL!
> 
> I have to say, I am SO glad I have this on video... it melts my heart to watch it!!! 💕
> 
> Oh, and another thing you can't see, is when I'm talking about my fingers... the best way to keep them from interfering with the nursing puppy is to offer them fingers to suck on. That usually keeps them pretty happy for a while!


What an absolutely brilliant video💗 So interesting to see how they move, interact and feed and cute beyond words🥰. Well done for so staying chilled with all of them clambering for the bottle _and _throwing some poop in for good measure, I wouldn’t know what to do first!! I know we keep saying it but thank you so much for sharing😘


----------



## krandall

GoWithTheFlo said:


> What an absolutely brilliant video💗 So interesting to see how they move, interact and feed and cute beyond words🥰. Well done for so staying chilled with all of them clambering for the bottle _and _throwing some poop in for good measure, I wouldn’t know what to do first!! I know we keep saying it but thank you so much for sharing😘


----------



## Mama Mills

They are all so precious. I hope you’re taking that good of care of yourself too Karen! You’ve got a handful - thanks for sharing.


----------



## Tere

Farewell to Dave then!


----------



## krandall

Mama Mills said:


> They are all so precious. I hope you’re taking that good of care of yourself too Karen! You’ve got a handful - thanks for sharing.


Thanks. Today was better. I actually got a bunch of stuff done. She was more comfortable with me being downstairs, away from the whelping room, so I could be down in my office, on my main computer, where the wifi is stronger. I was able to get the litter registered and a bunch of other paperwork done. She kept popping down the stairs to check in, and of course, I went up to check on everyone (and I have the monitor on them all the time) but I didn't have to be IN the room.


----------



## krandall

Tere said:


> Farewell to Dave then!


LOL! I told him about the conversation, and told him that Pixel had earned him a reprieve!


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> I have to say, I am SO glad I have this on video... it melts my heart to watch it!!! 💕


Wonderful video. I could hear KODI and PIXEL barking downstairs, I guess it was supper time.

Question, does PANDA show any interest in the formula? Does she lick their faces for some sloppy seconds when they have finished with their bottle? I know a certain Havanese that has given a sloppy kid who was eating an ice cream cone a tongue face washing - ""Hey kid, you've got a dirty face, let me give you a paw with that."


----------



## LeleRF

Claire really said it perfectly, and those videos were so fantastic and insightful to watch. Your talking to the pups & Panda also made it even more fun and endearing. 💗 What can you say, POOP HAPPENS 😜! Please try to take care of your poor back after all that hunching down over the whelping box.


----------



## LWalks

They are all so adorable with their little squirming and grunting! They definitely seem happy with that formula! Thanks for sharing them with us ❤


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Wonderful video. I could hear KODI and PIXEL barking downstairs, I guess it was supper time.
> 
> Question, does PANDA show any interest in the formula? Does she lick their faces for some sloppy seconds when they have finished with their bottle? I know a certain Havanese that has given a sloppy kid who was eating an ice cream cone a tongue face washing - ""Hey kid, you've got a dirty face, let me give you a paw with that."


The barking was probably an Amazon truck. History has proven that barking is 100% effective at chasing that truck away! LOL! Oh, wait! Not at that time of night, but not dinner either. It must have been Dave teasing Kodi at the beginning of the “Banana Dance” ritual! LOL!

Panda and the formula. It isn’t a problem now that each puppy has a separate bottle, but when I was using the Miracle nipple on the syringe, I had to refill the syringe from a container of formula between each puppy. Wait! Where did the container go?!?! Miss Panda had taken the (fairly full) open container into the hall, without spilling a drop... and then polished it off for herself! You have never seen such a mucky beard!!! (some of the ingredients in formula are goats milk, egg yolk, canola oil and kayro syrup. Yum! And STICKY, 

In general, though, she is absolutely fabulous about cleaning up ANYTHING that gets on the puppies, be it formula, pee or poop. She keeps them shiny as new pennies!


----------



## krandall

LeleRF said:


> Claire really said it perfectly, and those videos were so fantastic and insightful to watch. Your talking to the pups & Panda also made it even more fun and endearing. 💗 What can you say, POOP HAPPENS 😜! Please try to take care of your poor back after all that hunching down over the whelping box.


I have two stacked memory foam dog beds right outside the whelping box door. The MAIN purpose I put them there was for Panda to have a place to lie down outside the box, where she could still see the puppies. But a great secondary benefit is that it is a SUPER kneeling spot for working in the box! And the “Panda mat” was mostly to protect my JUST refinished hardwood floor, but has turned out to be REALLY comfy to sit on too!


----------



## Heather's

I'm behind a few days...Wonderful pictures and love your video Karen! Panda is just the best mama ever and so are you! The puppies are precious little butterballs. I would want to keep them all.😁


----------



## krandall

Heather's said:


> I'm behind a few days...Wonderful pictures and love your video Karen! Panda is just the best mama ever and so are you! The puppies are precious little butterballs. I would want to keep them all.😁


I kinda do. But I know I can’t. Not only would I live to regret it, but it wouldn’t be fair to them. They all deserve their own special families!


----------



## 31818

I have a feeling that all the available puppies will be placed with families within an hour drive of Karen.


----------



## ShamaMama

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I have a feeling that all the available puppies will be placed with families within an hour drive of Karen.


How dreamy would it be to participate in their family reunions over the years!

💜 💚 💙 💛 🧡


----------



## Veneita

krandall said:


> using


SO precious!!🤗 A lot of work for “Mom 2”, but so rewarding!!


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

Just curious - are the eyes "stuck" shut or is it just a matter of not having the muscles yet to open and shut the eye lids?


----------



## krandall

Veneita said:


> SO precious!!🤗 A lot of work for “Mom 2”, but so rewarding!!


You have no.i.d.e.a! LOL! It was 10:30 before I got to change out of my PJ's and grab a cup of coffee this AM (which I am just finishing now) I skipped the shower for me. But Mama, puppies and the whelping room are poop-free! 

And the poop all happened in a 30 second period! Panda couldn't keep up! And I think the black ones AIM for Ducky and Jelly. It isn't just that the black ones don't SHOW poop stains as much, they actually don't get it ON them as often!


----------



## Mikki

I thought one Ducky's eyes was a tiny bit open on the 15 minute video.


----------



## Veneita

Amazing, seeing as Ducky and Jelly are moving targets! 😉 The sweet babies are such an investment - of your time, energy, and love!!


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> And the poop all happened in a 30 second period! Panda couldn't keep up!


Five puppies in 30 seconds????? The idea of me ever being a breeder, - thanks but NO THANKS!

Regarding PANDA, does she eat the puppy poop to clean up? I guess that is nothing a good tooth brushing wouldn't fix, but oh dog, just one more thing to do. Out of curiosity, when will you consider giving the pups a regular bath?


----------



## krandall

Mikki said:


> I thought one Ducky's eyes was a tiny bit open on the 15 minute video.


They were getting close... and easier to see on him, because he's light! Ducky, Chirp and Jelly have their eyes open now. I was going to try t get photos of them later. Cadbury and Peeps still haven't decided to take a look at the world!


----------



## krandall

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> Just curious - are the eyes "stuck" shut or is it just a matter of not having the muscles yet to open and shut the eye lids?


They are stuck shut.


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Five puppies in 30 seconds????? The idea of me ever being a breeder, - thanks but NO THANKS!
> 
> Regarding PANDA, does she eat the puppy poop to clean up? I guess that is nothing a good tooth brushing wouldn't fix, but oh dog, just one more thing to do. Out of curiosity, when will you consider giving the pups a regular bath?


Yes, mom eats the pee and poop until they are weaned. That really doesn't makes as much of a mess of her beard as her food. Which is REALLY gross!!! That is:

1/3C Fromm's kibble
1/3 can Royal Cannin Starter Mousse
A big scoop of either scrambled eggs (including the shells (and yes, Popi, whites too  ), VERY lean (95%) boiled hamburger, or boiled chicken breast
About 1/2C goats milk (guessing on that amount... I just pour it in)
Calcium and vitamin D supplement
Probiotics 

She gets that 3 times a day, and then has free-feed access to a bowl of Fromm's kibble for snacking whenever she wants. (and fresh, clean water, of course at all times too) 

In the evening, her "regular" supplements get added in, plus Oxy Momma, which has supplements specifically to help with milk production and to support her nutritional needs during lactation, and DHA to make the puppies smart. (or so they tell me  )

The puppies will probably get their first real bath sometime after their 6th week? Certainly not earlier. As long as Panda is doing her current excellent job shining them up, there is no need. (except for these unexpected moments of explosion! LOL!)


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> A big scoop of either scrambled eggs (including the shells (and yes, Popi, whites too  ),


Egg whites are not the problem, but egg yolks are a potential problem because of the high fat content (as told to me by my Vet). But I know PANDA is under the supervision of a competent pediatric Vet. I would certainly take her advice rather than some random guy on the Internet, like me. It sounds like PANDA is doing just fine/excellent.


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Egg whites are not the problem, but egg yolks are a potential problem because of the high fat content (as told to me by my Vet). But I know PANDA is under the supervision of a competent pediatric Vet. I would certainly take her advice rather than some random guy on the Internet, like me. It sounds like PANDA is doing just fine/excellent.


Oh, I forgot which part of the egg you objected to.  But my vet (and every vet I've ever talked to about it) has said that whole eggs, in moderation, are fine for dogs unless the dog has "personal problem" (i.e. food intolerance) with eggs. And more dogs have an intolerance to the whites than they do to yolks. I would NOT, however, fee the quantities of ANY of this stuff to a dog that was not nursing a bunch of puppies... unless you wanted a VERY.FAT.DOG!!! As it is, Panda is feeling decidedly Libby. If she'd eat more, I'd feed her more. But this is all she can pack in!  

Incidentally, it is a common farm practice, with big dogs, to toss them an egg, straight out of the collecting basket in the morning. They catch them in the air and eat them raw, shell and all. I suspect my Havanese would let them hit the ground, make a HOLY mess lapping them up and leave the shell behind.


----------



## ShamaMama

From ShamaPapa:

According to the research I did following Shama's CKD diagnosis, egg whites are considered exceptionally good for dogs. They are considered a very high quality protein and are well tolerated by dogs with kidney issues. However, our University of Minnesota specialist told us not to give Shama egg whites and stick with the prescription diet entirely. So she is not getting any eggs anytime soon.


----------



## 31818

ShamaMama said:


> From ShamaPapa:
> 
> According to the research I did following Shama's CKD diagnosis, egg whites are considered exceptionally good for dogs. They are considered a very high quality protein and are well tolerated by dogs with kidney issues. However, our University of Minnesota specialist told us not to give Shama egg whites and stick with the prescription diet entirely. So she is not getting any eggs anytime soon.


I agree with what you say Papa and is consistent with what I have been told. And it is a rare day that RICKY gets even a piece of boiled egg white (he does get a bit of dehydrated egg in his Honest Kitchen diet, formulated by a canine nutrition specialist). BUT I know that PANDA is getting top quality Veterinarian care and I would trust her Vet.


----------



## krandall

ShamaMama said:


> From ShamaPapa:
> 
> According to the research I did following Shama's CKD diagnosis, egg whites are considered exceptionally good for dogs. They are considered a very high quality protein and are well tolerated by dogs with kidney issues. However, our University of Minnesota specialist told us not to give Shama egg whites and stick with the prescription diet entirely. So she is not getting any eggs anytime soon.


Shama is a dog with a specific medical condition, though, so that is different than a healthy dog. I believe that in some cases, protein is limited for dogs with kidney disease. 

The thing is, I am all for finding a vet you trust, and listening carefully to what he or she has to say. I do NOT believe in blindly following ANY advice. I believe in researching, and in talking to various medical professionals. Medicine is NOT an exact science. I do the same in terms of my own and my family's health, BTW, not ONLY my dogs'. 

When it turned out that I needed to supplement the puppies, I started with Esbilac, because that's what the vets' office suggested. It is easy and widely available. It is the "Hill's Diet" or "Science Diet" equivalent of puppy formula. They all had VERY loose stools. I also stated reading more talking to other breeders who had had to either supplement or bottle rear litters and also to other VETERINARIANS. I found a VETERINARIAN APPROVED (and complicated ) home made recipe for formula that did not have all the chemical stabilizers that have to be in a shelf-stable commercial product, and ALSO have ingredients that make it closer the bitche's milk that the goats milk that is the sole animal ingredient of Esbilac. (well, you can get cows milk Esbilac, but that is known to cause worse problems) My puppies went from refusing the Esbilac and having loose stools, to happily nursing, normal stools and gaining weight well. 

I LOVE my vet. I think we should ALL find vets that we love and have confidence in. And I STILL think we should research for ourselves before deciding that a food that many people all over the world REGULARLY use as a nutrient dense food source as PART of a healthy diet for their dogs. Popi... Do me a favor and Google "are eggs bad for dogs" and see how far down you have to go before you get to the caveats not to feed them RAW for fear of salmonella.


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> Popi... Do me a favor and Google "are eggs bad for dogs" and see how far down you have to go before you get to the caveats not to feed them RAW for fear of salmonella.


This topic has been discussed in detail on HF and has been controversial. What I will repeat again applies only to me and my dog RICKY and should not be construed to apply to anyone else, especially a lactating mother like PANDA or a dog with dietary restrictions like SHAMA. Every case is different and each owner has the obligation to do what they think is right for their dog. 

I had an extensive discussion with RICKY's Vet about feeding raw including raw eggs several years ago. He said the risk of salmonella is low if eggs are cooked and maintaining an immaculate, sanitary kitchen. He said it is possible to prepare a well balanced raw diet with a lot of research to become as knowledgeable as a licensed canine nutritionist. He asked if I was prepared to spend additional time preparing a raw diet. He asked if I was prepared to purchase additional equipment to prepare a raw diet. I told him I was unwilling to do any of those things, I was basically lazy. He said I was typical for his clientele in a relatively rural, unsophisticated area. He said in all his years of practice, he had never found any of his clients was willing to do the work. His clients think that feeding raw is feeding table scraps and throwing in a raw egg each day which he said is bad for a number of reasons. Consequently, he recommends against feeding raw including raw eggs which applies only to his practice with a relatively naïve clientele in a rural area. His advice is that a high quality kibble that is nutritionally balanced is 95+% as good as a raw diet and always better than raw if not prepared properly. He does approve of the relatively expensive, commercially prepared, dehydrated "raw" diet I feed RICKY which he thinks is 100% as good as a raw diet with none of the potential negative side effects. Under other specific conditions, he might recommend something entirely different for RICKY, a healthy, iron stomach dog.

In conclusion, it is best to find a Vet who you trust, discuss your dog's dietary needs with them, and listen to their recommendations. No one diet is appropriate for all dogs. It all depends on your specific situation. We all obviously love our dogs and would never do anything to intentionally harm them. I am not trying to change anyone's mind about what to feed their dog. I am just telling you what my experience is which may not apply to anyone else. Everyone needs to be responsible for themselves and their dog.


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> This topic has been discussed in detail on HF and has been controversial. What I will repeat again applies only to me and my dog RICKY and should not be construed to apply to anyone else, especially a lactating mother like PANDA or a dog with dietary restrictions like SHAMA. Every case is different and each owner has the obligation to do what they think is right for their dog.
> 
> I had an extensive discussion with RICKY's Vet about feeding raw including raw eggs several years ago. He said the risk of salmonella is low if eggs are cooked and maintaining an immaculate, sanitary kitchen. He said it is possible to prepare a well balanced raw diet with a lot of research to become as knowledgeable as a licensed canine nutritionist. He asked if I was prepared to spend additional time preparing a raw diet. He asked if I was prepared to purchase additional equipment to prepare a raw diet. I told him I was unwilling to do any of those things, I was basically lazy. He said I was typical for his clientele in a relatively rural, unsophisticated area. He said in all his years of practice, he had never found any of his clients was willing to do the work. His clients think that feeding raw is feeding table scraps and throwing in a raw egg each day which he said is bad for a number of reasons. Consequently, he recommends against feeding raw including raw eggs which applies only to his practice with a relatively naïve clientele in a rural area. His advice is that a high quality kibble that is nutritionally balanced is 95+% as good as a raw diet and always better than raw if not prepared properly. He does approve of the relatively expensive, commercially prepared, dehydrated "raw" diet I feed RICKY which he thinks is 100% as good as a raw diet with none of the potential negative side effects. Under other specific conditions, he might recommend something entirely different for RICKY, a healthy, iron stomach dog.
> 
> In conclusion, it is best to find a Vet who you trust, discuss your dog's dietary needs with them, and listen to their recommendations. No one diet is appropriate for all dogs. It all depends on your specific situation. We all obviously love our dogs and would never do anything to intentionally harm them. I am not trying to change anyone's mind about what to feed their dog. I am just telling you what my experience is which may not apply to anyone else. Everyone needs to be responsible for themselves and their dog.


We went WAY off the rails in that one... we were never talking about raw. we were talking about eggs. I agree that raw can be good if done well. I also agree the for ME raw is not a good choice. I don't feed raw eggs for the same reason I don't feed other raw foods. I DO feed COOKED eggs in small quantities to all my healthy dogs. From 14 days to 12 years. With the blessing of a number of vets.


----------



## krandall

Back to our previously scheduled puppy programming...

We have eyes! At least three of us...

Ducky:









Chirp:









And Jelly!:









And Chirp says, if you've got eyes, you've got to use them! What's outside this box? When do we get to go outside there?









Ducky says it's time for another nap!


----------



## LeleRF

🤩 No.words.to.describe.the.cuteness.🥰 Loving these pics!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

LeleRF said:


> 🤩 No.words.to.describe.the.cuteness.🥰 Loving these pics!


Absolutely agree💗💗💗💗

I wonder what they make of their new sense of sight, or perhaps they can only see a small distance like human newborns🤔


----------



## Veneita

Joyful!!!!!


----------



## Ditto's Mom

Such sweetness. Love, love seeing the pictures!


----------



## krandall

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Absolutely agree💗💗💗💗
> 
> I wonder what they make of their new sense of sight, or perhaps they can only see a small distance like human newborns🤔


They SEEM much more interested in everything around them. They still sleep most of the time when they are not nursing, but when they are awake, they are up on their feet, checking things out. OTOH, I think it is more a developmental stage than just their eyes being open, because Cadbury and Peeps are doing it too, even though they can’t see ANYTHING yet... they just follow their very active little noses around!


----------



## 31818

Life really is a miracle. It just seems like yesterday when we learned PANDA was pregnant. Today we see these beautiful creatures blooming "in the blink of an eye." It is so inspiring to see them being nurtured in such a loving environment rather than neglected in a puppy mill. Too soon "in the blink of an eye" they will all go to their forever homes and fulfill their destiny. That will be a bitter/sweet day for me and I think all of us, except those who are the lucky winners of the puppy lottery.


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

I'm in luv with Ducky! I see her little nose is kind of speckled. Will it stay pink like that or will it darken? She is so cute!


----------



## krandall

Cadbury Joins the world of the sighted today


Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> I'm in luv with Ducky! I see her little nose is kind of speckled. Will it stay pink like that or will it darken? She is so cute!


Ducky is a boy too! HOPEFULLY his nose (and other pigment) will be completely black. It should be, and that it is coming in strongly now is a good sign. "Clear red" dogs always come in later than other colors. But coming from two parents that have stag pigment, he has a good chance of having good pigment. That can be a problem when you breed two "ee" havanese together. SOME of them have great pigment, but others don't. So it can be a bit like breeding chocolates... Breeding ee to ee, you are guaranteed to get ee (cream to red) puppies, BUT you are risking getting poor or incomplete pigment if you do it too often. So people who are TRYING to "color breed" will often breed black or sable (like Panda and He.be) back in to their program. In THIS case, Ducky was a surprise. We were neither trying for or expecting a red. So he was a "bonus" puppy.  But the rest is that it is LIKELY that he will have good pigment.


----------



## krandall

OK, well I'm not sure I mentioned it, but I saw Chirp purposefully walking into corners to poop yesterday. It's kind of early to set up a potty area another breeder friend said she has been dividing her whelping box by 2 1/2 weeks, and Jane Killion (Puppy Culture) says there is no harm in trying AS LONG AS the puppies are strong enough and capable enough to make their way from the "pee pad" area to the "nest" area. The goal at this age is NOT to "potty train" the puppies. The goal is to allow them to develop the habit of keeping their nest area clean. She said some puppies get it right away and others don't and not to get upset or worry about it is you have a litter that doesn't get it early. But based on what I was seeing Chirp doing. I figured it was worth a try.

So I set the box up with a shallow crate pad type "bed" in the back corner, and a pee pad running all along the front. I HARDLY got it in the box when this starts to happen!









And it WASN'T an accident, because three puppies in a row left the nest, toddled onto the pad, pooped, (unfortunately, at that point, toddled around in it, but hey, A for effort!  ) and headed back for the nest. Panda and I interrupted and cleaned up the messy kids before they could spread their mess further, so it's a work in progress, but I was ASTOUNDED!!! (I also replaced the pad, of course!)

They have been peeing on the pad all afternoon!

Here's the new set-up:










Now's the Bad-dog news... I made the mistake of leaving the open package of pee pads on the bed. Some BAD, BAD, Momma dog turned into a paper-shredding Havanese and DESTROYED half of the pads! How she knows to leave the one in the whelping box alone is beyond me. But I put a rush order in to Amazon for delivery tomorrow!


----------



## Melissa Brill

krandall said:


> Now's the Bad-dog news... I made the mistake of leaving the open package of pee pads on the bed. Some BAD, BAD, Momma dog turned into a paper-shredding Havanese and DESTROYED half of the pads! How she knows to leave the one in the whelping box alone is beyond me. But I put a rush order in to Amazon for delivery tomorrow!


Kind of funny that you post about paper shredding at the same time I just posted about Perry's complete lack of interest in shredding paper


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> OK, well I'm not sure I mentioned it, but I saw Chirp purposefully walking into corners to poop yesterday.


Leave it to the only female in the litter to show the boys how it's done!


----------



## krandall

Melissa Brill said:


> Kind of funny that you post about paper shredding at the same time I just posted about Perry's complete lack of interest in shredding paper


LOL!


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Leave it to the only female in the litter to show the boys how it's done!


Three of them did it, though... I was just too busy doing clean-up to be taking any pictures! I don't even remember who anymore!!! LOL!


----------



## krandall

And... I had someone here today who was able to help me with “puppy wrangling” so that I could got photos with the “real” camera, instead of with just my cell phone. We had a great time, and got some darling photos! Here are just a few!


----------



## krandall

And here is the video I took of them this evening... their very first play session! I can’t believe how much they have changed in just two days!!!:


----------



## Veneita

Sooo sweet!! Such little joyful miracles!!


----------



## LWalks

krandall said:


> And here is the video I took of them this evening... their very first play session! I can’t believe how much they have changed in just two days!!!:


Oh my, they are changing so fast!! And maybe I’m imagining things, but it looks like little glimpses of personality showing through already, like with that assertive and waggy little girl!


----------



## krandall

Lisa Walker said:


> Oh my, they are changing so fast!! And maybe I’m imagining things, but it looks like little glimpses of personality showing through already, like with that assertive and waggy little girl!


She certainly is the most precocious! Not sure whether she is the most assertive or if the boyz just can't keep up with her! Can't STAND that waggy tail!!! It makes me want to scoop her up and HUG her! 💕


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> And... I had someone here today who was able to help me with “puppy wrangling” so that I could got photos with the “real” camera, instead of with just my cell phone. We had a great time, and got some darling photos! Here are just a few!





krandall said:


> And here is the video I took of them this evening... their very first play session! I can’t believe how much they have changed in just two days!!!


Karen, just stop it! This is torture beyond a reasonable doubt! I am on the verge of banning any further puppy photos from you!


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Karen, just stop it! This is torture beyond a reasonable doubt! I am on the verge of banning any further puppy photos from you!


LOL!


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

OMG! I can't get over how cute they all are. And your post of photos where you had help with the crew is just precious. Oh, and by the way, sorry I confused Ducky with a girl. Still my fav though!


----------



## krandall

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> OMG! I can't get over how cute they all are. And your post of photos where you had help with the crew is just precious. Oh, and by the way, sorry I confused Ducky with a girl. Still my fav though!


No problem! I don’t think HE knows he’s a boy yet! LOL!


----------



## Mando's Mommy

Oh the cuteness!!!


----------



## krandall

So... rather than just more cuteness, I thought I’d share anothe piece of information you might be interested in. This is Panda’s lunch:









That’s a big serving spoon full of cooked ground chicken breast, 1/3 can of Royal Canin Starter Mousse, 1/3c Fromm’s kibble (her “regular” food) and a big dollop of whole fat yougurt. For breakfast and dinner, she’ll get goat’s milk in place of the yogurt, and we alternate between very lean ground sirloin (cooked), scrambled eggs, and the chicken. She always gets the Starter Mousse and kibble mixed in, as well as supplemental calcium and vitamin D am & pm, and all her other supplements pm. On top of this, she has a free feed bowl of dry kibble to snack on as often as she wants.

How did I decide on these amounts for her 3 “meals”? Because this is all she will eat at one sitting! LOL! The reason for each ingredient is to give her enough calories, and as much protein and calcium as possible to support the growth of the pups. The pups, except in tha case of EXTREME malnourishment, ALWAYS get what they need. They are little parasites! LOL! But they do it at the expense of the mom, if you don’t keep pouring it into her! Even with ALL of this food, she is STILL thin... and you all know I HATE fat dogs. And she went into her pregnancy chubby. Which was a good thing. She is not skeletal, by any means, but definitely ribbier than I would prefer. If she would eat more, I’d feed her more! It’s a lot of work eating for six!

Next week, the puppies are 3 weeks old. And with all the struggles we had getting her milk in, and how well it’s going now, it will be time to start them on their first solids! As they start eating more, she will start needing less!


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> So... This is Panda’s lunch:


DIS ES TORTURE BEYOND TREASONABLE DOUBT! 👎 Show more photos dem lil' puppies an' less dat yummy en de tummy foods.

RICKY 🥵 RICARDO


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> DIS ES TORTURE BEYOND TREASONABLE DOUBT! 👎 Show more photos dem lil' puppies an' less dat yummy en de tummy foods.
> 
> RICKY 🥵 RICARDO


Sorry, Ricky, Talk to your Popi! He banned me from puppy pix... said I was torturing him or some such! 

To think Panda is my "Labrador Retriever" Havanese... Bitches are SUPPOSED to stop eating so much during their last week, and one of the signs that they are going into labor is that they often stop eating completely. Panda ate up until a couple of hours before her C-section, and THAT was, most likely, because no one offered her anything! LOL! And even SHE cannot consume enough food to keep up with all these growing puppies!

Ricky, YOU can have this much food if you want to FIRST swell up like a watermelon, then have your belly shaved, THEN have your belly sliced open, and then IMMEDIATELY after your belly is sliced open, have 5 little parasites sucking you dry every 2 hours for a number of weeks. If that's OK with you, we'll feed you all you want to eat. Popi might even relent and let you eat some eggs!


----------



## juliav

More puppy pictures pawleez!!


----------



## Havawoof

Thank you for posting this thread!! 😁❤


----------



## krandall

And besides what Panda is eating these days, here is what goes on in the life of Puppy Culture puppies during week two.

Every day, I do “something” to change their environment. A lot of this is pretty organic... it just needs to be done, to keep them clean and respond to their changing and developing needs. It also has been partly a learning experience as _I_ have learned what works best for me, Panda and the puppies. We tried regular pee pads one day (worked but slippery and messy) then litter in a boot tray (worked but Panda made a HUGE mess with the pellets, and I don’t think the puppies really need it yet) and today, carbon impregnated pee pads. These seem to work really well RIGHT NOW... untill they learn to mess with them. And they aren’t slippery under foot for them, which is also nice.










I was also supposed to introduce something new into the whelping box each day, as soon as they start to approach new things with interest when they are places in the box. That started on Tues, with the opening of eyes. So I’ve started putting different things that they can explore and interact with. When the lose interest, which is pretty fast; they tire quickly, I remove them. They love these “baby mats”. That have bells and squeakers, and crinkly parts, etc, for them to walk over. A friend gave me several I can rotate through. 











You can see, they had already worn themselves out! They need LOTS of sleep!!!

And this is the part I REALLY hate... (just kidding  that is a joke) I have to take each one out separately for some one-on-one cuddle time. That is JUST TERRIBLE!






Other than that, my day is full of laundry, letting dogs out, letting dogs in, letting dogs upstairs, letting dogs downstairs, Escorting Kodi if he wants to go anywhere upstairs because he is afraid of “the dragon mama”, weighing puppies, making dog meals, cleaning butts (oh yeah, Panda has had some poopy butt for some reason, to add to the fun...) Oh, and today, sorting though and washing all the dog toys in the house that will be appropriate for the little puppies. I was quite amazed at the number I have that are still in one piece! That’s a win!


----------



## Janet

I keep thinking of the Kings going through all this when they have multiple litters!


----------



## krandall

Janet said:


> I keep thinking of the Kings going through all this when they have multiple litters!


They are AMAZING. One big difference is THEY are not learning as they do the way I am. Pam has this all down pat. I am constantly calling or emailing Pam for suggestions on how to do things better/more easily! She has a better answer for everything!


----------



## LeleRF

Ahh, just a day in the life of a human puppy Momma, amongst *several* other hats! It may not be glamorous but you’d be hard-pressed to find a more rewarding way to spend your time. Goodness me, all those puppy cuddles!! 🥰


----------



## Veneita

Your journal writings and puppy pics bring such a warm feeling and smile to my face!! I’m sure I’m not the only one!! 🤗


----------



## krandall

Veneita said:


> Your journal writings and puppy pics bring such a warm feeling and smile to my face!! I’m sure I’m not the only one!! 🤗


❤


----------



## ShamaMama

krandall said:


> Other than that, my day is full of laundry, letting dogs out, letting dogs in, letting dogs upstairs, letting dogs downstairs, Escorting Kodi if he wants to go anywhere upstairs because he is afraid of “the dragon mama”


Thanks for the cute Cadbury sucking on his pacifier video. Can you please tell us more about Kodi and the "dragon mama?" And how are Pixel and Panda getting along? Have Kodi and Pixel seen the puppies yet? They must know something's up?

Thanks!

💛 🧡 💜 💚 💙


----------



## krandall

ShamaMama said:


> Thanks for the cute Cadbury sucking on his pacifier video. Can you please tell us more about Kodi and the "dragon mama?" And how are Pixel and Panda getting along? Have Kodi and Pixel seen the puppies yet? They must know something's up?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 💛 🧡 💜 💚 💙


It is perfectly normal for a mama dog to be EXTREMELY protective of her babies for the first few weeks. Sometimes toward people other than family members, though Panda has shown very little of that, and USUALLY toward other dogs. Instinctively, they are more protective toward male dogs than females, because in the wild, a male that is not the sire of a litter, will try to kill the puppies. This will bring the bitch into season faster, so HE can breed her.

Even though they are NOT in the wild, Kodi is NOT a stud dog, and Kodi is the least likely dog in the world to harm a puppy, from Panda’s hormone driven perspective, he is a danger. From HIS perspective... “She loco!!!” 

She doesn’t want Pixel too close yet either, but is less worried about her. Which _I_ think is funny, since I would NOT put it past Pixel, who LOVES babies, to try to steal one... though she would not hurt it. 

Eventually, those hormones will start to wane, and Panda will (hopefully) be more accepting of other dogs near her growing puppies!


----------



## krandall

First breakfast! What a mess! Film at eleven (if I have time!  )


----------



## krandall

...And shopping for supplies for the next size puppy pen. That’s not happening today, but we were getting what we need. Everything in the cart EXCEPT the foot locker (that’s Dave’s) is for the puppies. Pixel came along to supervise! (We also stopped at Petco for more puppy (cat) beds and Kodi’s birthday cookies! (Pixel may have managed to talk daddy into some cookies for her too, birthday or no )


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

krandall said:


> ...And shopping for supplies for the next size puppy pen. That’s not happening today, but we were getting what we need. Everything in the cart EXCEPT the foot locker (that’s Dave’s) is for the puppies. Pixel came along to supervise! (We also stopped at Petco for more puppy (cat) beds and Kodi’s birthday cookies! (Pixel may have managed to talk daddy into some cookies for her too, birthday or no )
> View attachment 174306


Clever Pixel😊. I would be a softie and buy her lots of cookies too😁


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> ...And shopping for supplies for the next size puppy pen. That’s not happening today, but we were getting what we need. Everything in the cart EXCEPT the foot locker (that’s Dave’s) is for the puppies. Pixel came along to supervise!


Looks like Lowes to me (it's a guy thing, just ask my amigo where anything is in that store). I prefer to shop at Lowes because it is better organized but Home Depot is more convenient to us. Next stop Petco, it's right next door to Home Depot in our town.


----------



## ShamaMama

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Looks like Lowes to me (it's a guy thing, just ask my amigo where anything is in that store). I prefer to shop at Lowes because it is better organized but Home Depot is more convenient to us. Next stop Petco, it's right next door to Home Depot in our town.


From ShamaPapa:

Lowes! We miss Lowes. Out local store closed two years ago. Home Depot and Fleet Farm are just not good replacements.


----------



## 31818

ShamaMama said:


> From ShamaPapa:
> 
> Lowes! We miss Lowes. Out local store closed two years ago. Home Depot and Fleet Farm are just not good replacements.


Yeah, Shama's Papa, Lowes is experiencing financial problems even prior to the pandemic. Economic indicators don't look good for the entire chain right now. Home Depot has a lot of empty shelves in our location. Macy's is another store that is on the ropes. Sears and Kmart are goners and perhaps Penny's not far behind. Amazon is killing the marketplace for better or worse. Another chain that is doing well is Tractor Supply and of course Costco.


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> First breakfast! What a mess! Film at eleven (if I have time!  )


Puppy food fight! Don't you just love it? It looks like all five are pretty much food motivated. What goes in one end has to come out the other! It's called perPETual motion. 🐶💩🐶💩🐶💩🐶💩🐶💩


----------



## krandall

We ALWAYS patronize Lowes, because in our area, Home Depot does not allow dogs! (Stupid people!)  And yes, it is very near Petco, do it’s a twofer!


----------



## ShamaMama

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Yeah, Shama's Papa, Lowes is experiencing financial problems even prior to the pandemic. Economic indicators don't look good for the entire chain right now. Home Depot has a lot of empty shelves in our location. Macy's is another store that is on the ropes. Sears and Kmart are goners and perhaps Penny's not far behind. Amazon is killing the marketplace for better or worse. Another chain that is doing well is Tractor Supply and of course Costco.


From ShamaPapa:

Regionally we have Menards. They have been doing very well during the pandemic. Their lot is always full on the weekend compared to Home Depot (just across the street from Menards) with than a third of the cars at best. We like Menards, but we really liked Lowes. We have a local Tractor Supply in town. Been their a couple times, but they are not conveniently located. We are less than five minutes from Menards and used to be less than two from Lowes (it was just on the opposite side of the highway from our neighborhood. Could have easily walked if there had been pedestrian bridge over the highway.).


----------



## krandall

ShamaMama said:


> From ShamaPapa:
> 
> Regionally we have Menards. They have been doing very well during the pandemic. Their lot is always full on the weekend compared to Home Depot (just across the street from Menards) with than a third of the cars at best. We like Menards, but we really liked Lowes. We have a local Tractor Supply in town. Been their a couple times, but they are not conveniently located. We are less than five minutes from Menards and used to be less than two from Lowes (it was just on the opposite side of the highway from our neighborhood. Could have easily walked if there had been pedestrian bridge over the highway.).


Our Lowes is always bustling. I don’t know about HD, because, honestly, since they changed their dog policy, we rarely go there. It’s a little farther away also. We use Tractor Supply a lot too, but it doesn’t carry the same things.


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

I have enjoyed reading this thread so much, you’d think these puppies were my own babies! 

The documentation of your experience is phenomenal. Any time people ask about puppies of any breed and about ethical breeding this is where I will send them! 

But I still have so many questions! I’ll narrow it down. How does Panda’s experience fit in context of breeding Havanese? If you WERE really interested in developing a long term and regular breeding program, are the obstacles you’ve faced considered acceptable? Do these things mean you would be less likely to breed Panda again? Or completely unable to because of the cesarean? It is very educational to see your experience in this light because you have waited to breed her, and it reminds me of what has been mentioned on the forum about how unpredictable breeding can be. It really illustrates how someone might be preparing to breed for a long time and put a lot of time and work into a Havanese and then it doesn’t work out. I’ve known this intellectually, but it’s enlightening . Someone interested in breeding really has to be willing to patient for many years to get started! I’m glad you have been able to have the experience you wanted - I hope anyway, it seems like it! 

I really love reading your references to using puppy culture, too. I‘ve been interested in it and have read about it on and off for a while.

I can’t get enough of Pixel and her love of puppies! It sounds like she’ll be great with them and an ideal teacher once the puppies are old enough. I know they learn a lot from their litter mates, but how much do the adult dogs in a breeders home engage with the puppies once they’re mobile? Do any of the adults ever become particularly attached to the puppies? Thinking about Pixel, what a sweetheart! I imagined they feel like they’ve done their job and their babies are all grown up when they go to their homes but I realized there must be more to it. 

Okay that’s a lot of questions so I’ll leave it at that!


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

Regarding the hardware stores, I love all hardware stores the same way I love art supply stores and craft stores, they’re all just like candy stores to me. Which I also love. I spend way too much time in all of them. A few years ago Home Depot began to work with contractors more and they seem to have supplies that cater to that kind of experience. I think it was smart from a business perspective. Lowe’s tends to cater more to the DIY crowd. I think what has happened is that online resources for DIY have become so good, people become experienced enough to want different products. This is all my opinion based on my local stores, I’m sure it’s different depending on the needs of the community. Even between the two Home Depot’s I go to the most, one caters much more to contractors than the other and they carry different products. I go to two different HD’s, Lowe’s, plus a local hardware store and a cabinet supply shop, all for different things! I value all of them in different ways. I was glad that the local Lowe’s did a lot of hiring during covid. Unfortunately, I notice that there are almost more employees than customers. It’s concerning because home improvement and home building have blown up here. Plus I like a lot of their store brand “finished” products.


----------



## krandall

EvaE1izabeth said:


> How does Panda’s experience fit in context of breeding Havanese? If you WERE really interested in developing a long term and regular breeding program, are the obstacles you’ve faced considered acceptable? Do these things mean you would be less likely to breed Panda again? Or completely unable to because of the cesarean?


The cesarean was because of a very large puppy, and just in the category of “things happen”. Just as with people, there is no reason that a dog that has had. C-section cannot go on to have successful vaginal deliveries with subsequent litters. In Pandas specific case, I do not intend to breed her again, but I never did. I had a specific goal for this litter, (a new performance puppy for me, related to her) and I will have met that goal, I hope! Her problems with milk production may have been partly the C-section and partly her age... it’s hard to say. She is not old to have a litter, but she is old to have a FIRST litter, and the C-section may have just tipped the balance enough to make it hard for her to get her milk started. But again, occasionally that happens post C-section anyway. So we will never know for sure.

The timing was what it was partially because of my illness of 2 years ago, followed by Covid. It’s probably not BEST to wait until a bitch is 5 to have her first (or only) litter, but ALL the veterinary professionals and my breeder friends gave the green light. It was only in hind sight that some have wondered whether her age was a factor. who knows?

Even we lay people here on the forum remarked on the APPEARANCE of the large puppy closest to the birth canal. I even checked with some other vets and was told at the time that that could have been a matter of positioning for the xray. But although I have been mostly very happy with Panda’s care at the repro practice we have used... Covid, again, has been an issue. The DAY of her Xray, she was handed back to me by the tech with a “congratulations, you have 5 puppies”. I didn’t even see the xray until they emailed it to me at home, nor did I get to speak to the vet, who was doing an emergency c-section. I asked the vet to call me, but she didn’t. Nor did she call the next day. (This was Easter weekend, and I know they were short staffed and super busy) The next day she was in labor. If some one had TALKED to me, and we had DISCUSSED the disproportion of size, should we have done a planned section? I wonder. And I wonder how (or if) it would have changed things. We will never know, and fortunately, neither she nor the puppies were harmed. It could have been much worse. And as I said, over all, I am very happy with the practice. They have been great. The timing of their one lapse in communication was just potentially very bad. But... Covid. Worse things have happened to humans in the last year.



EvaE1izabeth said:


> It is very educational to see your experience in this light because you have waited to breed her, and it reminds me of what has been mentioned on the forum about how unpredictable breeding can be. It really illustrates how someone might be preparing to breed for a long time and put a lot of time and work into a Havanese and then it doesn’t work out. I’ve known this intellectually, but it’s enlightening . Someone interested in breeding really has to be willing to patient for many years to get started! I’m glad you have been able to have the experience you wanted - I hope anyway, it seems like it!
> 
> I really love reading your references to using puppy culture, too. I‘ve been interested in it and have read about it on and off for a while.


For a very experienced breeder, like the Kings, I’ve watched them DO most of these things instinctively, before “Puppy Culture” even was a program. For someone like me, who is raising a litter for the first time, it is invaluable. It is SO well laid out, and not rigid, or by rote, but makes it VERY clear that while you want to meet specific goals, you also need to “read” YOUR litter and decide flexibly when THEY are ready for various things. The writer of the PC program breeds Bull Terriers, which is a REALLY different breed from Havanese. There are things that you just HAVE to modify, because of size and temperament difference between breeds. (For instance, she makes a BIG deal about training for resource guarding... something I don’t think we worry about much with our breed... I sure haven’t seen much of it in my dogs, though I would step in if I did!) She understands that and makes it clear throughout the program, even while using her dogs as examples.



EvaE1izabeth said:


> I can’t get enough of Pixel and her love of puppies! It sounds like she’ll be great with them and an ideal teacher once the puppies are old enough. I know they learn a lot from their litter mates, but how much do the adult dogs in a breeders home engage with the puppies once they’re mobile? Do any of the adults ever become particularly attached to the puppies? Thinking about Pixel, what a sweetheart! I imagined they feel like they’ve done their job and their babies are all grown up when they go to their homes but I realized there must be more to it.


I’m hoping that both Kodi and Pixel will help get the puppies used to friendly adult dogs as they get older. I’ve seen how nicely that works with the King’s puppies as they get older, and something I certainly hope to see with mine! Pixel is SO interested in them, and I’ve seen how good she is with visiting puppies in the past. I am SURE she will be great with these puppies once Panda is past the “dragon mama” stage! LOL


----------



## krandall

I certainly wish my puppies were a little more relaxed. I wonder if there is something I can do to help them calm down. What do you think? 






























Jelly Bean is already practicing the all-important “Havanese Melt” (this is also my rare two-headed puppy  )










And Ducky had a really hard night... a bit of a hangover. Sister, Chirp, was helping keep the light out of his eyes this morning.


----------



## krandall

Today was a LONG day. Over the weekend, we mocked up our “toddler” puppy pen down in the kitchen, to make sure we had everything we needed.









Then today, I started tearing apart the puppy room and setting up the new pen, while the puppies blissfully slept theough the whole thing in their box, which we had moved into the hall.









Seems like I had to make a HUGE mess before I could put things back together right!










Here is our (mostly) finished pen. It still may get tweaked a bit in the next day or two, but they seem pretty happy with it.


----------



## LeleRF

krandall said:


> Today was a LONG day. Over the weekend, we mocked up our “toddler” puppy pen down in the kitchen, to make sure we had everything we needed.
> 
> Here is our (mostly) finished pen. It still may get tweaked a bit in the next day or two, but they seem pretty happy with it.


That is a very creative and impressive structure there! The different levels makes it seem like a little townhouse too. I think Panda and the pups look like they appreciate your hard work!


----------



## krandall

LeleRF said:


> That is a very creative and impressive structure there! The different levels makes it seem like a little townhouse too. I think Panda and the pups look like they appreciate your hard work!


The different levels were not really intended to start with... but I wanted to make sure that while they still had access to an area with a heating pad, it was also well protected. And Panda likes to dig up bedding. So it is under a memory foam dog bed. I ordered another one so that the whole floor is that level, but now I’m not sure. They seem to like climbing the little “mountain”, and I would think the changes in levels help them develop coordination.

The biggest thing I’m not thrilled with right now is the litter box arrangement. This is how the Kings do it, but my fogs are not used to uncovered litter boxes, and while the puppies are doing fine with it, Panda is not liking it. I’m going to give it a couple of days to see if she adjusts. From ehat I’m seeing so far, they seem pretty accepting of both the pee pads and litter boxes as potty surfaces right now, because right NOW, they are really just learning to keep their nest area clean. And they are doing brilliantly with that.


----------



## Veneita

Speaking of relaxing and Havanese puppies, a study in UK showed a Havanese to be the winner!🤗


----------



## 31818

Veneita said:


> Speaking of relaxing and Havanese puppies, a study in UK showed a Havanese to be the winner!🤗


Interesting that both my primary physician and psychologist daughter agree with the study. Besides reducing stress and anxiety, many dog breeds (certainly Havanese) teach compassion, empathy, commitment, tolerance, and unconditional love. My psychologist daughter has a Lab.


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> Here is our (mostly) finished pen. It still may get tweaked a bit in the next day or two, but they seem pretty happy with it.


Why TWO litter boxes? Wouldn't one be enough? I guess maybe you would have to change it more often and therefore more work.


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Interesting that both my primary physician and psychologist daughter agree with the study. Besides reducing stress and anxiety, many dog breeds (certainly Havanese) teach compassion, empathy, commitment, tolerance, and unconditional love. My psychologist daughter has a Lab.


Works for me! ❤


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Why TWO litter boxes? Wouldn't one be enough? I guess maybe you would have to change it more often and therefore more work.


The goal at this stage is for the puppies to learn to keep the nest clean. They are not learning to “use a potty”, but to “keep their bed clean”. So you need to set it up in a way that they can reasonably potty anywhere BUT their bed, and you can keep it clean. So I needed to fill all the way to the end of the pen, and two boxes filled it.

And actually, we have “toddler pen 3.0” as of today. She wasn’t happy jumping in and out and landing in the litter (my dogs are used to litter boxes with grates) and both Dave and I were going nuts from the amount of pellets spread all over the upstairs from what was getting dragged around in her coat as she jumped in and out through the pellets. I ended up vacuuming the puppy room, the upstairs hall and our bedroom 3 times before lunch time today! Also, since she is still in the stage where she eats all the puppy poop, she was ingesting some pellets along with any puppy poop that she found before I did. I was worried about that.

So I pulled out the litter boxes and replaced them with shallow trays I’ve been playing with with litter underneath them. I think we can ALL live with this. The puppies are using them happily, they are easier for them to climb over, Panda doesn’t mind jumping onto them, and We don’t have pellets allover the house. The grates are a bit of a pain to clean poop off of, but I’ll take THAT over the litter everywhere, at least for now. I WILL introduce them to open litter boxes too, when there is enough room in the pen that Panda can get in and out without having to jump directly into the pan, because I want puppy owners to have the flexibility to use either a covered or uncovered box. But there is time for that later.


----------



## krandall

I finally figured out a way to feed them without making a huge mess. The commercial “puppy dishes” are too big for them right now, and they can just climb right in. So I made a mini version with a smaller dish and a glass in the middle. Yay! It kept everyone out of the dish (for the most part) and everyone got their fill. It was a LITTLE messy, but not TOO bad! 









(I didn’t say it was COMPLETELY neat and clean!


----------



## JaJa

krandall said:


> I finally figured out a way to feed them without making a huge mess. The commercial “puppy dishes” are too big for them right now, and they can just climb right in. So I made a mini version with a smaller dish and a glass in the middle. Yay! It kept everyone out of the dish (for the most part) and everyone got their fill. It was a LITTLE messy, but not TOO bad!
> View attachment 174356
> 
> 
> (I didn’t say it was COMPLETELY neat and clean!
> View attachment 174357


Oh my gosh, I don't know how many more puppy pictures I can handle before I melt and slide onto the floor😋 They are growing so fast💖


----------



## krandall

Here’s a little video of the latest “monster mash”. They ate a whole can of puppy mousse mixed with an equal amount of goat’s milk! Hard to believe that a week ago I was still bottle feeding them!


----------



## krandall

And Ducky and Jelly Bean playing...


----------



## LeleRF

Oooh they starting to get feisty! Are they showing real interest in the toys as well?


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

You aren’t kidding when you say they eat messy! I had no idea! It’s always fun to see a dog enjoy their meal but to see all of those puppies so happy about food is a real treat  It’s like they are having a whole sensory experience!


----------



## Veneita

So sweet puppy pics and great pics of your ingenuity!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

JaJa said:


> Oh my gosh, I don't know how many more puppy pictures I can handle before I melt and slide onto the floor😋 They are growing so fast💖


I’ll see you down there💗💗💗🤣🤣🤣


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

krandall said:


> And Ducky and Jelly Bean playing...


I think Flo has a bit of Pixel Puppy Love in her...whenever I show her videos of the puppies she cries and licks the screen💗


----------



## krandall

LeleRF said:


> Oooh they starting to get feisty! Are they showing real interest in the toys as well?


Yes, they like their toys! They don’t play for long, they still sleep a LOT of the time. But when they are awake, they are VERY cute! It’s just hard to catch them on video. I’ll see them start, grab the phone, and it’s over! LOL! Probably just as well, or I’d be blowing up YouTube with puppy videos!


----------



## krandall

EvaE1izabeth said:


> You aren’t kidding when you say they eat messy! I had no idea! It’s always fun to see a dog enjoy their meal but to see all of those puppies so happy about food is a real treat  It’s like they are having a whole sensory experience!


It’s like babies first learning to eat. I think they absorb food via their belly buttons! LOL!


----------



## krandall

GoWithTheFlo said:


> I think Flo has a bit of Pixel Puppy Love in her...whenever I show her videos of the puppies she cries and licks the screen💗


Awww, THAT’S adorable!!!


----------



## LWalks

krandall said:


> And Ducky and Jelly Bean playing...


i just can’t get enough of them! It’s really unbelievable how much they’ve developed in a week... from staggering around to furry little guys playing face bitey! ❤


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

I still dibs Ducky, but Jelly Bean is awfully cute too in that play video. Jelly Bean has some really interesting black and white markings.


----------



## JaJa

krandall said:


> Here’s a little video of the latest “monster mash”. They ate a whole can of puppy mousse mixed with an equal amount of goat’s milk! Hard to believe that a week ago I was still bottle feeding them!


That's a clever idea and they certainly love your monster mash.


----------



## JaJa

krandall said:


> And Ducky and Jelly Bean playing...


I'm still melting❣


----------



## krandall

OK, Popi, Close your eyes... "Official" three week photos:













































For those of you who are gluttons for punishment, and want to see ALL the photos, including some VERY cute "out-takes", they can be found on my Zenfolio gallery at: Easter Basket Litter at 3 weeks 28-Apr-21


----------



## krandall

And in case there is ANY question where Jelly Bean gets his looks, here is a photo of Panda as a baby! LOL! It's really pretty remarkable how much he looks like her!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

krandall said:


> And in case there is ANY question where Jelly Bean gets his looks, here is a photo of Panda as a baby! LOL! It's really pretty remarkable how much he looks like her!
> 
> View attachment 174383
> 
> 
> View attachment 174384


I love the little black patch surrounding Jelly Bean’s nose, he almost looks like he has a little koala nose 💗 🐨


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> OK, Popi, Close your eyes... "Official" three week photos:










*I SEE NOTHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING!*


----------



## Heather's

They are growing up so fast! Each one is as cute as can be. 🥰 I have my favorite...


----------



## Ditto's Mom

Just beautiful!


----------



## krandall

GoWithTheFlo said:


> I love the little black patch surrounding Jelly Bean’s nose, he almost looks like he has a little koala nose 💗 🐨


The REALLY funny thing is he was BORN like that! He looked like some one had punched him in the nose! LOL!


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> View attachment 174387
> *I SEE NOTHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING!*


I'm betting ten bucks and a margarita that you peeked.


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> I'm betting ten bucks and a margarita that you peeked.


Karen, I hate to take your money because those puppies are just wasting away and they need for you to feed them! And I know the two cases of wine you hid under your bed is long gone! I think I'm going to start a GoFundMe account for those poor puppies!


----------



## Mando's Mommy

krandall said:


> And Ducky and Jelly Bean playing...


Jelly Bean reminds me so much of Mando! They are all so adorable! 😍


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Karen, I hate to take your money because those puppies are just wasting away and they need for you to feed them! And I know the two cases of wine you hid under your bed is long gone! I think I'm going to start a GoFundMe account for those poor puppies!


Ricky, your Popi is a fibber!  (And how did he know about the case of wine under my bed?!?!)


----------



## krandall

Mando's Mommy said:


> Jelly Bean reminds me so much of Mando! They are all so adorable! 😍


See? You took Mando, so I had to grow one of my own! LOL!


----------



## Mando's Mommy

krandall said:


> See? You took Mando, so I had to grow one of my own! LOL!


 Very creative way of getting there. LOL.

By the way, one of Mando's nicknames at home is Mando Pando....for obvious reasons. 😊


----------



## krandall

Mando's Mommy said:


> Very creative way of getting there. LOL.
> 
> By the way, one of Mando's nicknames at home is Mando Pando....for obvious reasons. 😊


Love it!


----------



## LeleRF

krandall said:


> OK, Popi, Close your eyes... "Official" three week photos:
> View attachment 174376
> 
> 
> View attachment 174379
> 
> 
> View attachment 174378
> 
> 
> View attachment 174380
> 
> 
> View attachment 174382
> 
> 
> For those of you who are gluttons for punishment, and want to see ALL the photos, including some VERY cute "out-takes", they can be found on my Zenfolio gallery at: Easter Basket Litter at 3 weeks 28-Apr-21


Glutton, party of one! 🤣 I went 3 loops in on those pics, lol. Excellent pics, btw! How ever did you get them to stay still? They all look like studio shots.


----------



## Veneita

Such sweet miracles!!!❤


----------



## krandall

LeleRF said:


> Glutton, party of one! 🤣 I went 3 loops in on those pics, lol. Excellent pics, btw! How ever did you get them to stay still? They all look like studio shots.


They just did! I wouldn’t wish bottle feeding on anyone, but it makes for VERY socialized puppies! LOL!


----------



## Mikki

LeleRF said:


> Glutton, party of one! 🤣 I went 3 loops in on those pics, lol. Excellent pics, btw! How ever did you get them to stay still? They all look like studio shots.


Awwwwww! Love the pics. How did that sweet little white and brown one sneak into the group?


----------



## krandall

Mikki said:


> Awwwwww! Love the pics. How did that sweet little white and brown one sneak into the group?


He is actually red and white, and red (e) is like blue eyes in people. Both parents can carry it, and not have it show. We knew the sire HAD to carry it, because HIS sire was ee. So He.be had to inherit one copy. But we didn’t know whether Panda did or not. Her sire was a carrier... he had produced some ee pups bred to the right girls. But Panda’s dam was not a carrier. So there was only a 25% chance that Panda carried the gene. Guess what? She does!


----------



## krandall

Ducky and Jelly say they are prisoners and they need SOMEONE to come and break them OUT!!!
















Woe is me. I’ll just have to nap away my misery with my sister...


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

krandall said:


> Ducky and Jelly say they are prisoners and they need SOMEONE to come and break them OUT!!!
> View attachment 174394
> View attachment 174393
> 
> 
> Woe is me. I’ll just have to nap away my misery with my sister...
> 
> View attachment 174395


I’m on my way🏃‍♂️🏃‍♂️🏃‍♂️🗝...


----------



## Ditto's Mom

I'm on my way too and I think I live closer....


----------



## juliav

They are ridiculously adorable. But Ducky any Jelly!!! I have no words!!


----------



## krandall

Ditto's Mom said:


> I'm on my way too and I think I live closer....


LOL!


----------



## LeleRF

krandall said:


> Ducky and Jelly say they are prisoners and they need SOMEONE to come and break them OUT!!!


Ohhh such a tease, Karen! If you hear a stampede on your porch, you’ll know why!!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

Ditto's Mom said:


> I'm on my way too and I think I live closer....


😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂that *really *just made me LOL🤣😘


----------



## krandall

LeleRF said:


> Ohhh such a tease, Karen! If you hear a stampede on your porch, you’ll know why!!


Well, starting next week, we are into our heavy socialization period. So the more the merrier! Just no leaving with puppies in pockets! LOL!


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> Well, starting next week, we are into our heavy socialization period. So the more the merrier! Just no leaving with puppies in pockets! LOL!


If anyone wants to smuggle CADBURY out, they're going to need an empty knapsack! 🧳


----------



## LeleRF

Ricky Ricardo said:


> If anyone wants to smuggle CADBURY out, they're going to need an empty knapsack! 🧳


*🥸 👀😬🤫 🏃‍♀️🤸‍♀️*


----------



## krandall

Puppies moved down stairs today! They will be “commuting” between their upstairs pen at night and the family room pen during the day, at least for a while. This their mode of transportation...








This is their old warming box that took them back and forth to the hospital several times, but with all the insulation pulled out now. Snd tgey barely fit any more! I’m going to have to get something bigger!

Here they are in the new family room pen. Right now, it is half the size it will eventually be. But that’s STILL more than double the space they were used to! As with everything else, they have been totally blasé about it. Immediately finding the comfy beds and settling down for a nap.










You will notice that the pen is currently lined with pee pads. While I am hoping for very few mistakes, I also recognize that they are “learners” at this stage, and figured that it was good insurance for now. So far, so good, they seem to be waking up and finding their boxes. Over time, I will move those toward the edges; for now, I wanted them easy access when they wake up. 

From Panda’s perspective, the BIGGEST difference is that the puppies are no longer isolated from the other dogs. They can both come into the family room and “puppy view” through the pen. She seems to be OK with that at this stage. When I’ve had a puppy out for nail clipping, and Kodi jumped up on the couch to sniff it, she has come in and body blocked him rather than attacking. Which seems to me to be MUCH more civilized! LOL!

Here is everybody sacked out for a nap, after a little exploring!









Here is Panda using her “grown-up” gate in and out. 



















You may notice she looks quite a bit more spiffed-up. I also took the opportunity of having everyone downstairs to give her a bath. She really needed it! But OH MY!!! The amount of undercoat she has blown!!!😭😭😭

Still she looks a lot better than the bedraggled waif of earlier this morning!


----------



## Melissa Brill

krandall said:


> Here is Panda using her “grown-up” gate in and out.
> 
> View attachment 174401


I'm surprised Pixel hasn't used the "grown-up gate" to get _in_ 
Awesome set up - but no less than I expected


----------



## Veneita

So sweet!!! Thank you for sharing your family with these wonderful pics, Karen!!


----------



## Molly120213

I can’t get enough of these puppy pics! Thanks for all the updates.


----------



## krandall

Melissa Brill said:


> I'm surprised Pixel hasn't used the "grown-up gate" to get _in_
> Awesome set up - but no less than I expected


She knows she would be KILLED if she entered that space. She and Kodi are being VERY polite about even being in the ROOM. They both know Panda is in charge when it comes to the puppies.


----------



## krandall

Here is a little video of when they first moved into the new pen:


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> Puppies moved down stairs today!
> View attachment 174402


Let's see......I count 5 Havapuppies, one Havamomi, and two Hush Puppies - size 8 about 12 months old. Is there a wait list for those?


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> Here is a little video of when they first moved into the new pen:


I think that's CADBURY who is really blossoming. That little puppy has cojones!


----------



## LeleRF

Wow, how cool! Loved getting the bird’s eye view into the the transition to the new downstairs space and intro to Uncle Kodi & Auntie Pixel!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

krandall said:


> Puppies moved down stairs today! They will be “commuting” between their upstairs pen at night and the family room pen during the day, at least for a while. This their mode of transportation...
> View attachment 174398
> 
> This is their old warming box that took them back and forth to the hospital several times, but with all the insulation pulled out now. Snd tgey barely fit any more! I’m going to have to get something bigger!
> 
> Here they are in the new family room pen. Right now, it is half the size it will eventually be. But that’s STILL more than double the space they were used to! As with everything else, they have been totally blasé about it. Immediately finding the comfy beds and settling down for a nap.
> 
> View attachment 174399
> 
> 
> You will notice that the pen is currently lined with pee pads. While I am hoping for very few mistakes, I also recognize that they are “learners” at this stage, and figured that it was good insurance for now. So far, so good, they seem to be waking up and finding their boxes. Over time, I will move those toward the edges; for now, I wanted them easy access when they wake up.
> 
> From Panda’s perspective, the BIGGEST difference is that the puppies are no longer isolated from the other dogs. They can both come into the family room and “puppy view” through the pen. She seems to be OK with that at this stage. When I’ve had a puppy out for nail clipping, and Kodi jumped up on the couch to sniff it, she has come in and body blocked him rather than attacking. Which seems to me to be MUCH more civilized! LOL!
> 
> Here is everybody sacked out for a nap, after a little exploring!
> View attachment 174400
> 
> 
> Here is Panda using her “grown-up” gate in and out.
> 
> View attachment 174401
> 
> 
> View attachment 174402
> 
> 
> You may notice she looks quite a bit more spiffed-up. I also took the opportunity of having everyone downstairs to give her a bath. She really needed it! But OH MY!!! The amount of undercoat she has blown!!!😭😭😭
> 
> Still she looks a lot better than the bedraggled waif of earlier this morning!
> 
> View attachment 174403


Ok so re pic number 3...this is a health emergency I _need_ to stroke Jelly Bean’s podgy little tummy RIGHT NOW otherwise I might die🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Let's see......I count 5 Havapuppies, one Havamomi, and two Hush Puppies - size 8 about 12 months old. Is there a wait list for those?
> View attachment 174404


Oh, they are bigger than that and older than that! Holes in the bottoms and new ones on order! You can have them if you pay for shipping!


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I think that's CADBURY who is really blossoming. That little puppy has cojones!


He is really delightful. He ASKS to be picked up, then IMMEDIATELY snuggles into your arms. THAT, actually, is very reminiscent of Kodi as a baby!


----------



## krandall

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Ok so re pic number 3...this is a health emergency I _need_ to stroke Jelly Bean’s podgy little tummy RIGHT NOW otherwise I might die🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰


It has been a real temptation to change his name to “Jelly Belly”. Do you have that brand of jelly beans in the UK?


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

krandall said:


> It has been a real temptation to change his name to “Jelly Belly”. Do you have that brand of jelly beans in the UK?


😂 I just had to check as I don’t really like sweets (candy) apart from chocolate. Turns out yes we do have have the Jelly Belly jelly beans, now I have seen the packaging I _think _I remember it being a big deal when Blockbuster Video started selling them over here because they came in all these unusual flavours, but am going back 30 odd years so could be wrong.

I think you need to rechristen him “JB” to cover both options😘


----------



## Ditto's Mom

Love the pups new digs!


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> Oh, they are bigger than that and older than that! Holes in the bottoms and new ones on order! You can have them if you pay for shipping!


HEY! this is a grrrrrrreat idea! but I don't expect you to send me the new ones just for cost of shipping. I could get those babies bronzed and put them on the mantel as a reminder why I will never want to be a breeder (like when monkeys fly out my butt).


----------



## Mikki

krandall said:


> Here is a little video of when they first moved into the new pen:


Love all the good pics and video. These really are such cute pics.


----------



## ShamaMama

Thank you, Karen, for all the entertainment and JOY!

💜 💚 💙 💛 🧡


----------



## Wulfin

I do not need 3 under 3… I do not need 3 under 3……

They are adorable.


----------



## krandall

Wulfin said:


> I do not need 3 under 3… I do not need 3 under 3……
> 
> They are adorable.


LOL! Does it help to know they are all spoken for?


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> LOL! Does it help to know they are all spoken for?


What was that old car flick called? *Gone In 30 Seconds*?


----------



## Wulfin

It does! And the fact that I’m not quite that filled with puppy fever (yet).


----------



## krandall

Today’s big step was that we started powering up the clicker!


----------



## krandall

Later, three of the little convicts were looking for a jail break again...


----------



## LeleRF

You have to appreciate their spunk and tenacity 😜! Do tell on the clicker lesson...how did you use it and did they respond as expected? We’re some pups more responsive than others?


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

I know your husband has been sort of a convert to dogs, I’m curious about his perspective on all of this puppy business!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

krandall said:


> Later, three of the little convicts were looking for a jail break again...
> 
> View attachment 174429


You’d need a heart of stone not to start digging a tunnel to help break them out😘


----------



## krandall

LeleRF said:


> You have to appreciate their spunk and tenacity 😜! Do tell on the clicker lesson...how did you use it and did they respond as expected? We’re some pups more responsive than others?


At this stage you are just “charging the clicker”... creating a “conditioned emotional response” to the clicker. So there really is no “wrong” response the puppy can make. If they had not liked my choice of food, I would have tried a different food. If they had worried about the clicker I would have switched to a quieter clicker. (Maybe... maybe I would have tried to work through it depending on their response) But the goal right now is for them to feel happy when they hear the clicker. So the bar is REALLY low!

The tube was full of chicken baby food, which they thought was EXTREMELY yummy, so it was all a great game for them! LOL! The goal of all training I do is for the dog to think it is all fun and games!


----------



## krandall

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I know your husband has been sort of a convert to dogs, I’m curious about his perspective on all of this puppy business!


He has pulled out a towel for himself, and will randomly pick a puppy for cuddle time. It’s pretty cute. It’s like he’s trying them on for size!


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> The goal of all training I do is for the dog to think it is all fun and games!


Well, your all fun and games 'conditioned emotional response' technique is certainly working on the members of HF with your puppy pictures! Who do you think are easier to train, Havanese puppies or HF members? *DON'T ANSWER THAT!* 🙉


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

Oh gosh I've missed so much! I haven't been online for a few days. Just got to do some outside gardening and inside house cleaning at some point! Now I'm trying to get caught up on the forum and I can't believe the change in the puppies in just a few days! Still luv Ducky and the Bean! But I also luv the other two as well.


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Well, your all fun and games 'conditioned emotional response' technique is certainly working on the members of HF with your puppy pictures! Who do you think are easier to train, Havanese puppies or HF members? *DON'T ANSWER THAT!* 🙉


🙊


----------



## krandall

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> Oh gosh I've missed so much! I haven't been online for a few days. Just got to do some outside gardening and inside house cleaning at some point! Now I'm trying to get caught up on the forum and I can't believe the change in the puppies in just a few days! Still luv Ducky and the Bean! But I also luv the other two as well.


Except there are THREE others! So who DON’T you love? LOL! (Just kidding!)


----------



## ShamaMama

Karen, have you decided who you're keeping yet? You don't have to tell us who it is, but I'm wondering if you've decided. Thanks!

💛 🧡 💜 💚 💙


----------



## krandall

ShamaMama said:


> Karen, have you decided who you're keeping yet? You don't have to tell us who it is, but I'm wondering if you've decided. Thanks!
> 
> 💛 🧡 💜 💚 💙


No, I won’t make a decision until after evaluations at 7 & 8 weeks.


----------



## LeleRF

ShamaMama said:


> Karen, have you decided who you're keeping yet? You don't have to tell us who it is, but I'm wondering if you've decided. Thanks!
> 
> 💛 🧡 💜 💚 💙


The suspense is excruciating, isn’t it? 🥺


----------



## Mando's Mommy

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Well, your all fun and games 'conditioned emotional response' technique is certainly working on the members of HF with your puppy pictures! Who do you think are easier to train, Havanese puppies or HF members? *DON'T ANSWER THAT!* 🙉


🤣 🤣 🤣


----------



## juliav

krandall said:


> No, I won’t make a decision until after evaluations at 7 & 8 weeks.


Oh Karen!!! the suspense is killing us. Can we start a bet on which one you will be keeping??? That would be so much fun!!!!

P.S: I think I need a post covid life!!!


----------



## krandall

LeleRF said:


> The suspense is excruciating, isn’t it? 🥺


LOL! They are growing up fast enough as it is!


----------



## 31818

juliav said:


> Oh Karen!!! the suspense is killing us. Can we start a bet on which one you will be keeping??? That would be so much fun!!!!
> 
> P.S: I think I need a post covid life!!!


🤐


----------



## krandall

juliav said:


> Oh Karen!!! the suspense is killing us. Can we start a bet on which one you will be keeping??? That would be so much fun!!!!
> 
> P.S: I think I need a post covid life!!!


You can can make whatever bets you want! I truly don’t know. I am really trying to keep an open mind!


----------



## krandall

OK, Popi, close your eyes... compliments of Emma Brodsky, 4 week puppy pictures...

Cadbury









Chirp









Ducky









Jelly Bean









Peeps









...and for good measure, Cadbury, singing the song of his people...


----------



## Lalla

Oh, Karen! My first day back on the forum, after so long away, and I have just read 30 pages of Panda’s Story. The drama of it all! And the beautiful, beautiful puppies. Congratulations, to you and to Panda, for navigating such a journey. I shall follow future episodes avidly - I feel completely immersed in your last few months, and full of admiration for all that you have achieved. I thought the ultrasound where you could see the five pups and their beautiful little skeletons was pure art. Breathtaking. What a wonder. It’s all brought joy back into my life, after the agonising loss of Tycho so recently. Thank you.


----------



## Lalla

Just looked at your beautifully designed and wonderfully informative website, Karen; congratulations on that, too! Loved the photographs. And I thought, reading all that you say, and looking at all the pictures you share, what a movingly generous website it is - generous with information, your personal story, your beautiful dogs, your achievements, your life. Thank you.


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

krandall said:


> Except there are THREE others! So who DON’T you love? LOL! (Just kidding!)


Oops! I know there are a total of five. It's just my math skills that are lacking! (Don't tell anyone that I'm a bookkeeper!)


----------



## 31818

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> (Don't tell anyone that I'm a bookkeeper!)


Dont tel inny won Ima Edater.


----------



## krandall

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> Oops! I know there are a total of five. It's just my math skills that are lacking! (Don't tell anyone that I'm a bookkeeper!)


You know what they say, don’t you? Old bookkeepers don’t die, they just lose their balance!


----------



## Tere

I think Karen will keep JellyBean. I just love his markings.


----------



## krandall

Tere said:


> I think Karen will keep JellyBean. I just love his markings.


IfI could decide just based on markings, I’d pick Jelly. If I could decide just based on sex, I’d pick Chirp. If I could decide just based on color, I MIGHT be tempted by Ducky, but I’m not sure. But the MOST important things for a future perforomance/conformation/breeding dog, are temperament and conformation, and neither of those can be assessed until they are 7-8 weeks old. So I truly, TRULY can’t make a decision yet, based on any superficial reason!


----------



## LWalks

krandall said:


> Later, three of the little convicts were looking for a jail break again...
> 
> View attachment 174429





krandall said:


> IfI could decide just based on markings, I’d pick Jelly. If I could decide just based on sex, I’d pick Chirp. If I could decide just based on color, I MIGHT be tempted by Ducky, but I’m not sure. But the MOST important things for a future perforomance/conformation/breeding dog, are temperament and conformation, and neither of those can be assessed until they are 7-8 weeks old. So I truly, TRULY can’t make a decision yet, based on any superficial reason!


Sounds like both an extremely difficult decision and an extremely easy one, given that there is no ‘bad’ choice among them!!! Love their new pictures— they’re getting so big!


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> So I truly, TRULY can’t make a decision yet, based on any superficial reason!


And here you picked Dave after your first date! Just goes to show that everyone can be a winner with a bit of work. (Momi says I am still a work in progress with too many NQs 😱)


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

krandall said:


> IfI could decide just based on markings, I’d pick Jelly. If I could decide just based on sex, I’d pick Chirp. If I could decide just based on color, I MIGHT be tempted by Ducky, but I’m not sure. But the MOST important things for a future perforomance/conformation/breeding dog, are temperament and conformation, and neither of those can be assessed until they are 7-8 weeks old. So I truly, TRULY can’t make a decision yet, based on any superficial reason!


That’s _easy _keep them ALL😆😆😆


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> And here you picked Dave after your first date! Just goes to show that everyone can be a winner with a bit of work. (Momi says I am still a work in progress with too many NQs 😱)


That is true. When I jokingly said something to my mother in law about “HER SON” she looked at me and said, “YOU’VE had him longer than I did!”


----------



## Ditto's Mom

If it were me I'd keep them all, lol!


----------



## krandall

GoWithTheFlo said:


> That’s _easy _keep them ALL😆😆😆


Then I would SURELY have to ditch the husband... every night when we say grace, he adds in, “and help all the puppies find homes... soon!”


----------



## juliav

krandall said:


> OK, Popi, close your eyes... compliments of Emma Brodsky, 4 week puppy pictures...
> 
> Cadbury
> View attachment 174444
> 
> 
> Chirp
> View attachment 174445
> 
> 
> Ducky
> View attachment 174446
> 
> 
> Jelly Bean
> View attachment 174447
> 
> 
> Peeps
> View attachment 174448
> 
> 
> ...and for good measure, Cadbury, singing the song of his people...
> View attachment 174449


Love the new pictures. Oh my, Churp has the largest almond eyes!


----------



## krandall

juliav said:


> Love the new pictures. Oh my, Churp has the largest almond eyes!


Yes, I am pleased with the shape of the eyes on the whole litter, but she does have a really lovely face!


----------



## juliav

krandall said:


> Yes, I am pleased with the shape of the eyes on the whole litter, but she does have a really lovely face!


I am just a sucker for a pretty face!


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

krandall said:


> You know what they say, don’t you? Old bookkeepers don’t die, they just lose their balance!


😄😄😄😄👍


----------



## ShamaMama

Yes, let's start a betting pool. How should we do that? (No real money of course - only bragging rights!)

💙 💛 🧡 💜 💚


----------



## krandall

ShamaMama said:


> Yes, let's start a betting pool. How should we do that? (No real money of course - only bragging rights!)
> 
> 💙 💛 🧡 💜 💚


I'm staying out of that! LOL!


----------



## Mando's Mommy

ShamaMama said:


> Yes, let's start a betting pool. How should we do that? (No real money of course - only bragging rights!)
> 
> 💙 💛 🧡 💜 💚





krandall said:


> I'm staying out of that! LOL!


Is the betting pool to see which puppy Karen keeps or if she keeps more than one? 🤣


----------



## Mama Mills

krandall said:


> You know what they say, don’t you? Old bookkeepers don’t die, they just lose their balance!


LOL this is great! I just started a bookkeeping business last year!


----------



## krandall

So today we had a busy play day... I put a towel over the slide to turn it into a "mountain" with a little more traction. They LOVED that!!! Ducky made it up first, 




























...followed by Chirp, who became "Queen of the Mountain" and decided "No Boyz Aloud" from that point on. She slept there guarding the castle most of the afternoon!


----------



## krandall

Some more cute play pictures:




























Is it pathetic that there are more than 600 posts in this thread?!?!


----------



## LeleRF

Oh Heaven’s NO, Karen! This is exciting stuff! I enjoy all of the threads & lovely people here on the forum and am especially enjoying this one! It has been so informative and has really allowed those of us that will never go through what you are are as a breeder, the *experience, *even if bits and glimpses as I’m sure it’s pretty hopping all day for you. It’s truly been a complete treat!


----------



## LWalks

You mean _only_ 600?!?


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

Way to go Ducky! King of the mountain. And that photo of Bean! I'm in love with both!


----------



## krandall

Folks on my High Jump FB page (don’t worry, you guys get more details here than they get! ❤ ) wanted a video of the puppies playing. Well, here are MOST of them this morning. ...Chirp needed her beauty sleep!: 




How did you spend your morning? Mine was spent changing litter pans cleaning pens, doing puppy laundry, reconfiguring the sleeping pen, feeding puppies, doing puppy training (barrier work this morning), feeding them breakfast, cleaning up poop, making their lunch (cooling on the counter). NOW I’m having my coffee! Which is cold, but I’m too tired to get up and stick it in the microwave!


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

krandall said:


> Is it pathetic that there are more than 600 posts in this thread?!?!


NO! This is the best thread of ALL TIME!


----------



## juliav

These puppies are adorable, so playful! I look forward to this thread every day!
what are the grey trays with white grate, holders for the pee pad?


----------



## Molly120213

Oh, I could watch those puppies all day!


----------



## Wulfin

Still waiting for a 24/7 puppy cam. Lolol


----------



## Tere

My JellyBean is the superstar of the puppies.


----------



## krandall

Wulfin said:


> Still waiting for a 24/7 puppy cam. Lolol


I have one, but unfortunately, it will never be open to the general public... I don’t want the world inside my family room! Sorry! LOL! Puppy owners have access though! 😉


----------



## Wulfin

Hehe, totally understandable. Privacy is a thing


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> I have one, but unfortunately, it will never be open to the general public... I don’t want the world inside my family room! Sorry! LOL! Puppy owners have access though! 😉


Now you've done it Karen! All HF members are puppy owners one way or another! You should have said, "PANDA puppy owners have access though." (I can see Karen needs some refresher training. 😁)


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Now you've done it Karen! All HF members are puppy owners one way or another! You should have said, "PANDA puppy owners have access though." (I can see Karen needs some refresher training. 😁)


LOL! Owners of EASTER BASKET LITTER puppies! LOL! Is that specific enough!

At least I'm not sleeping with them anymore!  And no, for those wondering, even then, I had the camera pointed at the whelping box, NOT at my bed! LOL!


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

I'm curious if any two puppies have bonded with each other more than with any of the others?


----------



## krandall

Tere said:


> My JellyBean is the superstar of the puppies.


LOL!


----------



## Melissa Brill

krandall said:


> Folks on my High Jump FB page (don’t worry, you guys get more details here than they get! ❤ ) wanted a video of the puppies playing. Well, here are MOST of them this morning. ...Chirp needed her beauty sleep!:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How did you spend your morning? Mine was spent changing litter pans cleaning pens, doing puppy laundry, reconfiguring the sleeping pen, feeding puppies, doing puppy training (barrier work this morning), feeding them breakfast, cleaning up poop, making their lunch (cooling on the counter). NOW I’m having my coffee! Which is cold, but I’m too tired to get up and stick it in the microwave!


I see that Pixel was being heavily policed as she checked out the puppies


----------



## 31818

Karen, I know you said in a previous post (can't find it) that are a few prospective owners you invited to visit the puppies. I know you talked about a friend who lost her Havanese recently and is looking for another big one. I don't know if this is a fair question (ignore if not). Are those you invite already promised puppies or are you just interviewing them as prospectives? I would hate to be the one to tell someone who visited, bonded with one puppy in particular, and then have to tell them they were not selected. I would rather clean puppy poop for life than have to do that job.


----------



## Heather's

Those puppies are just precious! 🥰 That little sneeze from Ducky was awfully cute! He sure reminds me of someone.


----------



## Mando's Mommy

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Now you've done it Karen! All HF members are puppy owners one way or another! You should have said, "PANDA puppy owners have access though." (I can see Karen needs some refresher training. 😁)


🤣🤣🤣


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Karen, I know you said in a previous post (can't find it) that are a few prospective owners you invited to visit the puppies. I know you talked about a friend who lost her Havanese recently and is looking for another big one. I don't know if this is a fair question (ignore if not). Are those you invite already promised puppies or are you just interviewing them as prospectives? I would hate to be the one to tell someone who visited, bonded with one puppy in particular, and then have to tell them they were not selected. I would rather clean puppy poop for life than have to do that job.


The people who are visiting right now are either people who have either been promised a puppy or “just friends” helping to socialize the puppies. I have a group of applications where I have told people that I am not currently taking more deposits, but that if/when I have another puppy available (as I will) I may contact them, and at any time until that last puppy is placed, they are welcome to visit.

I also make it clear that an in-person interview is MANDATORY for anyone within driving distance, and anyone with children living at home. People with children living at home must bring those children with them to meet me and my dogs. If I were placing a puppy further away, I’d have to think about how I’d handle it. Right now, there is no need.

I’m limiting visitors to one family a day right now, both for my sake and the sake of the puppies. I love sharing the puppies with folks! But people are always here for a couple of hours, and the puppies get tired. I also need to fit in their training time (when they are awake) and they won’t eat when they are too tired. And they still need lots of sleep. ...And there is also lots of just custodial work I need to do, between cleaning, laundry, record keeping, phone calls, appointment making, etc. 

Even with the people who have given me deposits, though, I have made it ABUNDANTLY clear to every single person that they should NOT get their heart set on any particular puppy, because I will make make NO decision on who gets which puppy (or which one(s) stay here) until after evaluations, and then I will do my best to place the best puppy with each family. They always, of course, have the right to say no, and their deposit would be returned. With this litter, Ducky has really caused a problem, because everyone wants Ducky. Clearly everyone can’t HAVE Ducky! LOL! And the others are at least as nice puppies. They just aren’t red. At the moment, Peeps is a real stand out, both in the way he is catching on to new things every day, and his looks. He has a BEAUTIFUL head, nice structure snd is just a sweetie. He is also developing a beautiful coat. But he’s black, so people overlook him. People’s eyes are drawn to the little blondie!


----------



## krandall

Heather's said:


> Those puppies are just precious! 🥰 That little sneeze from Ducky was awfully cute! He sure reminds me of someone.


He IS colored very similarly to Scout!!! ❤


----------



## krandall

Melissa Brill said:


> I see that Pixel was being heavily policed as she checked out the puppies


Yes! Panda is actually letting Pixel IN the pen now, but she supervises EVERY instant! I love the little play bow into a down she does to Pixel. You can just see her saying, “I’ll share them with you, just be REALLY careful!!!” It’s such a great example of dog communication!


----------



## Ditto's Mom

I love all the puppies but I must admit Peeps is my fav.


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> The people who are visiting right now are either people who have either been promised a puppy or “just friends” helping to socialize the puppies. I have a group of applications where I have told people that I am not currently taking more deposits, but that if/when I have another puppy available (as I will) I may contact them, and at any time until that last puppy is placed, they are welcome to visit.
> 
> I also make it clear that an in-person interview is MANDATORY for anyone within driving distance, and anyone with children living at home. People with children living at home must bring those children with them to meet me and my dogs. If I were placing a puppy further away, I’d have to think about how I’d handle it. Right now, there is no need.
> 
> I’m limiting visitors to one family a day right now, both for my sake and the sake of the puppies. I love sharing the puppies with folks! But people are always here for a couple of hours, and the puppies get tired. I also need to fit in their training time (when they are awake) and they won’t eat when they are too tired. And they still need lots of sleep. ...And there is also lots of just custodial work I need to do, between cleaning, laundry, record keeping, phone calls, appointment making, etc.
> 
> Even with the people who have given me deposits, though, I have made it ABUNDANTLY clear to every single person that they should NOT get their heart set on any particular puppy, because I will make make NO decision on who gets which puppy (or which one(s) stay here) until after evaluations, and then I will do my best to place the best puppy with each family. They always, of course, have the right to say no, and their deposit would be returned.


Karen, thank you so much with sharing an insiders look at breeding, the good, bad, beautiful, and ugly. Your generous participation in these 600+ posts should get you some sort of special designation for the Easter Basket litter, such as the "ENERGIZER BUNNY mom" she just keeps going and going and going. In particular, it is enlightening to know how a responsible breeder places puppies! I think parts of your post above should be put in a "sticky'" for future reference by those who may be shopping for a puppy and what to look for in a breeder. I don't know why this site can't make "stickies" for particular topics rather than the members of this forum trying to 'reinvent the wheel' when certain questions are asked time and time again.



> With this litter, Ducky has really caused a problem, because everyone wants Ducky. Clearly everyone can’t HAVE Ducky! LOL! And the others are at least as nice puppies. They just aren’t red. At the moment, Peeps is a real stand out, both in the way he is catching on to new things every day, and his looks. He has a BEAUTIFUL head, nice structure snd is just a sweetie. He is also developing a beautiful coat. But he’s black, so people overlook him. People’s eyes are drawn to the little blondie!


There is certainly no doubt that LUCKY DUCKY is a standout, but both CADBURY MOUSSE and SIR PEEPS-A-LOT are coming on strong as they mature! In fact, there isn't a bad pick in the litter. I like to fantasize about which pup would fit into our family best (don't we all) if I were in the market for a puppy right now. My favorites (note that is plural) have changed since they were whelped. Now it is sort of like a horse race with all five tied for the my lead favorite.

One more question (so @Jackie from Concrete WA 👍 doesn't have to ask for me), do you know yet at what age you will begin to send the puppies to their forever homes? It seems that most new puppy owners on this Forum are getting them between 8 and 12 weeks. This litter is about 5 weeks old (boy how time flies!) so it is going to be AT LEAST another month and probably more until this Forum starts losing track of them as they fulfill their destiny with another family - except maybe one or two of them 😉. That will be a sad day for all of us.

Thanks again Karen, for everything.


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

Tere said:


> My JellyBean is the superstar of the puppies.


No! MY JellyBean!


----------



## krandall

Ditto's Mom said:


> I love all the puppies but I must admit Peeps is my fav.


You are very discerning! He is a VERY nice puppy, and overlooked by many!


----------



## Veneita

Such wonderful miracles - still!!!!🤗


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> There is certainly no doubt that LUCKY DUCKY is a standout, but both CADBURY MOUSSE and SIR PEEPS-A-LOT are coming on strong as they mature! In fact, there isn't a bad pick in the litter. I like to fantasize about which pup would fit into our family best (don't we all) if I were in the market for a puppy right now. My favorites (note that is plural) have changed since they were whelped. Now it is sort of like a horse race with all five tied for the my lead favorite.


Which is EXACTLY why I am ABSOLUTELY not kidding when I say I do not know who I’m keeping! 



Ricky Ricardo said:


> One more question (so @Jackie from Concrete WA 👍 doesn't have to ask for me), do you know yet at what age you will begin to send the puppies to their forever homes? It seems that most new puppy owners on this Forum are getting them between 8 and 12 weeks. This litter is about 5 weeks old (boy how time flies!) so it is going to be AT LEAST another month and probably more until this Forum starts losing track of them as they fulfill their destiny with another family - except maybe one or two of them 😉. That will be a sad day for all of us.


Ten weeks. I do not like puppies to go home earlier than that for a couple of reasons. If you follow a minimal vaccine protocol, they should not have their first vaccine before 9 weeks, and should have it at least a few days before going home. I have also seen that puppies that leave earlier than 10 weeks tend not to have as good bite inhibition. They can still learn this from humans, of course, but often at the expense of peeled human skin. 😊 There is also SO much that I will be doing in terms of enrichment with the puppies during those two weeks that the puppies would be missing out on.

I suppose if the puppies were with a breeder who was only giving “custodial care”, it wouldn’t matter very much as long as you could ensure the puppy’s HEALTH at home. You could probably do a lot of the enrichment I will be doing, though not the social litter pieces, of course. But I wouldn’t be buying a puppy from a breeder like that. All my puppies came from breeders who were enriching every second of my puppies’ lives when they were awake. I am striving to do the same with these puppies.

THE OTHER BIG problem with sending puppies home at 8 weeks is that this is when they often enter their second fear period. (the first one, which I am just starting to see now... right on cue, starts just about 5 weeks, and is shorter and less intense than the 8 week one) So this is the worst POSSIBLE time to send them out into the “big wide world fill of scary new things!” Let them spend another two weeks at home, in the safe, controlled enviroment they are used to, being slowly and CAREFULLY introduced to new things in a non-threatening way, at a pace controlled by someone who knows them very well. Then send them home when they are feeling nice and confident about the world again!

After 10 weeks, you get to a point of diminishing returns. Some breeders like to keep them to 12 weeks. But I think between 10-12 weeks, those puppies need to be out, BY THEMSELVES, NOT with litter mates, almost daily. In the car, out in the neighborhood, experiencing the great outdoors... MAYBE a breeder can arrange that sort of one on one experiential learning. Most that I have encountered who make it a rule to keep puppies to 12 weeks do NOT do this. They are the over-cautious, over-protective type, and the puppies do NOT get socialized enough during that very critical time. Can you make up for that lost time? Yes. But it makes it harder.

That is DIFFERENT, BTW, than taking the last puppy in a litter, who HAPPENS to still be there at 12 or even 16 weeks. THAT puppy will have been treated like an “only” and will most likely be getting all the proper socialization one would expect of this is a good breeder. That is FAR different from a “litter of puppies” kept to 12 weeks.

Now, you will find other breeder who have different views on this. But this is my view as both a puppy buyer AND now a breeder. And MY puppies will be going home right around 10 weeks. As they were born on a Monday, I’m not going to make someone who HAS to pick up on a weekend wait until the following weekend... I will let them pick up slightly shy of 10 weeks. <sniff>


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

Karen I second your “sniff”😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭 Gosh it must be hard to say goodbye😕.

While people are picking their favourites (although I think they are *all* our favourites😘) I’m going to be completely shallow and say mine is Chirp because I think she has the _prettiest _little face😍. 

Also loving that Panda is now letting Pixel have playtime with the puppies…we NEED videos😆. Has Panda forgiven Kodi for being a boy yet, or is he still banished to other parts of the house away from the puppies? X


----------



## krandall

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Karen I second your “sniff”😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭 Gosh it must be hard to say goodbye😕.
> 
> While people are picking their favourites (although I think they are *all* our favourites😘) I’m going to be completely shallow and say mine is Chirp because I think she has the _prettiest _little face😍.
> 
> Also loving that Panda is now letting Pixel have playtime with the puppies…we NEED videos😆. Has Panda forgiven Kodi for being a boy yet, or is he still banished to other parts of the house away from the puppies? X


It’s not shallow to recognize a pretty girl when you see one! ❤. And she is a very NICE girl too!

As far as videos with Pixel are concerned, that is probably a little way off. While everything has been COMPLETELY appropriate, it is still new enough, and there is enough tension in the situation that I still want both eyes on the dogs and both hands free in CASE I need to scoop her out of there. I am quite certain she would not hurt a puppy. I am LESS certain that Panda would not take offense suddenly at something. And I do NOT want a dog fight in the puppy pen! 

Oh, and Kodi is allowed in the room, and on the outside of the pen. He really has no interest in getting IN the pen. His interest in the whelping room was Panda’s food, not the puppies. And since ALL the grown up dogs are shut out of the room while the puppies eat, there is never any food there to interest him! Really, the only reason he is spending more time in the family room these days is because I am, and he always wants to be where I am!


----------



## ShamaMama

Happy Mother's Day, PANDA!

And happy Mother's Day to all the other moms out there! 

Shama gave me a nice photo of herself for Mother's Day. She is very thoughtful and knows I just LOVE to look at her!

I'm behind in reading this thread but will eventually catch up ...

💚 💙 💛 🧡 💜


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

ShamaMama said:


> Happy Mother's Day, PANDA!
> 
> And happy Mother's Day to all the other moms out there!
> 
> Shama gave me a nice photo of herself for Mother's Day. She is very thoughtful and knows I just LOVE to look at her!
> 
> I'm behind in reading this thread but will eventually catch up ...
> 
> 💚 💙 💛 🧡 💜


Oh of course I forgot it is Mother’s Day in the US! Happy Mother’s Day to all you happy hav owners and especially to Panda 🐼 🥰


----------



## krandall

So…THIS little one, (Peeps, for those who have not been paying close attention) woke up before the others. So I decided to get him out for some box work. He was doing great touching the box with his nose or a foot in exchange for bit s of (VERY EXCITING) liverwurt… yes, a FEW of them have dicovered the joys of (semi) solid food! All of a sudden, he stood stock still, them LEAPED into the box… and PEED! Not a bad decision for a little litter box trained puppy!!!
Guess I need to cut down a new box before working with the other ones! LOL!










Oh, and I have to give myself a BIG pat on the back... I trained EIGHT dogs today!!! LOL!


----------



## Ditto's Mom

Just love Peeps!


----------



## Veneita

krandall said:


> So…THIS little one, (Peeps, for those who have not been paying close attention) woke up before the others. So I decided to get him out for some box work. He was doing great touching the box with his nose or a foot in exchange for bit s of (VERY EXCITING) liverwurt… yes, a FEW of them have dicovered the joys of (semi) solid food! All of a sudden, he stood stock still, them LEAPED into the box… and PEED! Not a bad decision for a little litter box trained puppy!!!
> Guess I need to cut down a new box before working with the other ones! LOL!
> 
> View attachment 174539
> 
> 
> Oh, and I have to give myself a BIG pat on the back... I trained EIGHT dogs today!!! LOL!
> 👏👏👏👏


----------



## LeleRF

Woo hoo!!! Go Peeps! 🙌 Now wait, you trained 8 dogs today!? K, P&P got in on some new training too?


----------



## 31818

LeleRF said:


> Woo hoo!!! Go Peeps! 🙌 Now wait, you trained 8 dogs today!? K, P&P got in on some new training too?


I know Karen included them too. I train with RICKY several times a day both indoors and outdoors. Training secessions tend to be brief. It is fun for both of us. RICKY loves to practice at his play (training).


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

Peeps is adorable. I love the little white beard! I have a box for Willow and I cut a small mouse hole opening in one side. Then I flip the box upside down and have taught her to crawl through the mouse hole! Or I get her to jump up on the bottom of the box while it's upside down. Flip it right side up and then I get her to go inside the box. Lots of games to do with a box!


----------



## krandall

Last night Dave helped me remove the family room rug and replace it with a big sheet of vinyl flooring. So the kids will came downstairs to an enormous 8x10’ play land this morning!










Panda checked it all out to make sure it was suitable!










Changes to the pen already. The litter boxes were TOO far away from the beds in this big pen. All but one woke up, headed for the boxes, and peed in the middle. (I caught one and deposited HIM in the box BEFORE the mistake) So... two of the boxes, at least for now, are in the middle. 

I also lengthened the chains on the busy box so they can reach the toys. The toys came with it, and I will change them out over time, but right now, these are a BIG hit!


















Finally, I did not like the way they were slipping around coming off the slide on this floor, which, although easier to clean, and the most non-slip vinyl I could find, IS slipperier than their old floor. So I put a non-slip landing pad at the bottom.


----------



## krandall

LeleRF said:


> Woo hoo!!! Go Peeps! 🙌 Now wait, you trained 8 dogs today!? K, P&P got in on some new training too?





LeleRF said:


> Woo hoo!!! Go Peeps! 🙌 Now wait, you trained 8 dogs today!? K, P&P got in on some new training too?


They did! Not “new” training, but at least some some “brush up” competition skills!


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I know Karen included them too. I train with RICKY several times a day both indoors and outdoors. Training secessions tend to be brief. It is fun for both of us. RICKY loves to practice at his play (training).


Not “included”, really… alas… it is VERY hard to teach multiple dogs at the same time. Even if they are working on the same skill. That’s part of what makes raising littermates so difficult. I need to work with each one separately. So even if I only spend 10 minutes with each of the adults and 2 minutes with each baby, plus change-over time, changing treats, getting whatever new equipment is needed for what I want to work on… it takes a fair bit of time.

The hardest part with the puppies is getting through the whole litter before they fall asleep, and then remembering who I’ve still got to work with. Unlike adult dogs, they don’t simply sleep when there is nothing much going on and wake up “ready to go”. They really NEED their sleep, and when they sleep, there is NO waking them!


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

What a fun play area! By the way, Willow has one of those black and white cows! However, it's a little worse for wear.


----------



## LeleRF

Well, geez, you just keep outdoing whatever the prior set up was, and I always think the prior was incredible! That space and all the activities are awesome! Can I ask where you picked up the vinyl flooring? Also did you modify a plastic container for the open litter or did you buy it that way. Hard to tell in the pic. It’s great they have lots of choices with the litter arrangement.

As to all that training, welp, I’m tired just reading it, lol!


----------



## Veneita

What a great setup, Karen!! Puppies and adults are so lucky!🤗


----------



## Heather's

Puppy Playland! 🥰


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> Peeps is adorable. I love the little white beard! I have a box for Willow and I cut a small mouse hole opening in one side. Then I flip the box upside down and have taught her to crawl through the mouse hole! Or I get her to jump up on the bottom of the box while it's upside down. Flip it right side up and then I get her to go inside the box. Lots of games to do with a box!
> View attachment 174544
> View attachment 174543


I love these pictures of Willow! She looks so great Jackie, bright white and long  what a great way to cut the box, too.


----------



## ShamaMama

Thanks for all the information, photos, and video, Karen! Those puppies are so lucky to be experiencing so many "firsts" at your house! What a fun and stimulating play area you set up! (Nice of you to make sure they could reach the hanging toys - tee hee!)

💚💛🧡💜💙


----------



## krandall

LeleRF said:


> Well, geez, you just keep outdoing whatever the prior set up was, and I always think the prior was incredible! That space and all the activities are awesome! Can I ask where you picked up the vinyl flooring? Also did you modify a plastic container for the open litter or did you buy it that way. Hard to tell in the pic. It’s great they have lots of choices with the litter arrangement.
> 
> As to all that training, welp, I’m tired just reading it, lol!


The vinyl was from Home Depot, and I just got lucky. I think someone else had returned it. The whole piece was only $45!!! I went there ready to suck it up and pay full price for for a piece. I had checked just about everywhere for remnants with no luck. And then this place had one sitting there that was the perfect size.

The open litter pan is just a plastic storage container with the side cut down and the edge taped with duct tape so there are no sharp edges.


----------



## krandall

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> Peeps is adorable. I love the little white beard! I have a box for Willow and I cut a small mouse hole opening in one side. Then I flip the box upside down and have taught her to crawl through the mouse hole! Or I get her to jump up on the bottom of the box while it's upside down. Flip it right side up and then I get her to go inside the box. Lots of games to do with a box!
> View attachment 174544
> View attachment 174543


Those are adorable!!!


----------



## krandall

Well, the puppies failed at potting in the big pen today. We had pee EVERYWHERE. As fast as I could clean it up and faster than I could pop puppies onto trays. And they had been doing so WELL in their smaller pen!










So I called my Potty training guru, Pam King. She told me that at this age, she always has them napping in their sleeping pen... that they can handle finding the litter boxes when fully awake and playing, in the bigger play space, but not when they first wake up. And my back can't take carrying this whole herd up and down the stairs multiple times a day. To their “night time pen”.

So for their early evening nap, I just blocked them into the corner where their beds were with their litter trays. Success! They used the trays when they woke up, and then I let them loose! Yay! We had a clean pen!!!










In the meantime, I moved their sleeping pen down into my office, so they can nap there during the day as well, rather than blocking them off in part of the big play area. (which needed full-time supervision... it was just leaned up there) That means Panda will have to decide whether she wants to be down with them, up with us, or split her time going back and forth. Her decision.









(BTW, this smaller piece of vinyl is the one we’ve had since Kodi was a puppy… we just roll it up and store it in the basement between puppies! I just pulled it out again today. It fits a Midwest pen perfectly!)

I have a monitor on them, so I can keep tabs on. them. I don't think there is any reason they HAVE to be upstairs at night at this point...










They certainly settled right in tonight! She has been down to check on them several times since I came upstairs, but right now, she is snuggled in next to me, enjoying some “girl time”.


----------



## krandall

Thanks to Pam King for a MUCH more successful day! Only one mistake so far! Napping happily in the “sleeping pen” in my office, and playing like MAD in the play pen.

I was really not happy with the way they were slipping on the vinyl... That CAN’T be good for their joints. But cheap yoga mats seem to have solved the problem… at least until they start to chew them. 🤪 Hopefully, by that time, they will have their legs under them better. I don’t remember my older puppies having trouble on vinyl flooring.


----------



## Cassandra

Panda insisting that Ducky get a “bath” is very funny! Love how they play so vigorously now, including the cow toy getting a good tug between siblings.


----------



## Heather's

Oh goodness...they are all so cute and growing quickly!


----------



## Ditto's Mom

Love watching the puppies, being puppies!!


----------



## Tere

Mirror, mirror on the wall who is the best, cutest Havanese puppy? The one Karen will keep for herself..it's Jelly Bean!

When I thought I was getting a Havanese, it was Jelly Bean that was in my mind. Black and White and full of crazy!
He certainly appears to be agile on the slide! 
So how are they stacking up weight wise, Karen? JB looks like a very well fed boy. He probably pushed his way in for the most food!


----------



## krandall

Tere said:


> Mirror, mirror on the wall who is the best, cutest Havanese puppy? The one Karen will keep for herself..it's Jelly Bean!
> 
> When I thought I was getting a Havanese, it was Jelly Bean that was in my mind. Black and White and full of crazy!
> He certainly appears to be agile on the slide!
> So how are they stacking up weight wise, Karen? JB looks like a very well fed boy. He probably pushed his way in for the most food!


Peeps is the heaviest now, followed by Cadbury. Ducky is the smallest, and Jelly and Chirp are always within less than an oz of each other, and between Cadbury and Ducky. Jelly and Ducky both look "chubby" because they are shorter bodied than the others. Chirp is more finely built all over, but that is what you would expect and what you would want in a female. She should be more feminine.


----------



## Heather's

It appears that little Ducky is the mischievous one! 😁


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

I watched this too many times! First I was mesmerized by Panda watching over them so sweetly, and Ducky playing roly-poly! Then I had to watch it again because I missed everyone else and noticed the little puppy is under the slide! I can’t tell who it is, but clearly the puppy is not hiding fearfully, I could see a little head poking out every few seconds like “come find me!” I had to watch it at least one more time to see Jelly Bean making the rounds - that little one is sure busy! Every one of those puppies is just adorable.


----------



## JaJa

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> Peeps is adorable. I love the little white beard! I have a box for Willow and I cut a small mouse hole opening in one side. Then I flip the box upside down and have taught her to crawl through the mouse hole! Or I get her to jump up on the bottom of the box while it's upside down. Flip it right side up and then I get her to go inside the box. Lots of games to do with a box!
> View attachment 174544
> View attachment 174543


Very clever!


----------



## 31818

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Then it again because I missed everyone else and noticed the little puppy is under the slide! I can’t tell who it is, but clearly the puppy is not hiding fearfully, I could see a little head poking out every few seconds like “come find me!”


I noticed that too. I looked like to me he was hiding so that he could ambush attack any puppy that walked by. Very clever! My guess is that was probably PEEPS because I see him developing his own unique personality.


----------



## krandall

Heather's said:


> It appears that little Ducky is the mischievous one! 😁


They all take turns! LOL!


----------



## krandall

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I watched this too many times! First I was mesmerized by Panda watching over them so sweetly, and Ducky playing roly-poly! Then I had to watch it again because I missed everyone else and noticed the little puppy is under the slide! I can’t tell who it is, but clearly the puppy is not hiding fearfully, I could see a little head poking out every few seconds like “come find me!” I had to watch it at least one more time to see Jelly Bean making the rounds - that little one is sure busy! Every one of those puppies is just adorable.


They LOVE their “hide-out” under the slide! Sometimes when the fall asleep, I’ll only seeone or two puppies in the beds… turn over the slide and there is a puppy pile sleeping under there! Time to get a crate in here for them!


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I noticed that too. I looked like to me he was hiding so that he could ambush attack any puppy that walked by. Very clever! My guess is that was probably PEEPS because I see him developing his own unique personality.


That is EXACTLY what he was doing, and I do think it was Peeps!


----------



## ShamaMama

krandall said:


> They LOVE their “hide-out” under the slide! Sometimes when the fall asleep, I’ll only seeone or two puppies in the beds… turn over the slide and there is a puppy pile sleeping under there! Time to get a crate in here for them!


Would you be able to post a video of that? Approaching the beds, seeing only one or two puppies, then approaching the slide, peeking underneath, and revealing the rest? That would be worthy of an appearance on America's Cutest Puppy Videos! (Not sure if such a show exists, but it should!) Thanks!

💚💛🧡💜💙


----------



## Melissa Brill

Ducky should change his name to "Rolly"


----------



## krandall

ShamaMama said:


> Would you be able to post a video of that? Approaching the beds, seeing only one or two puppies, then approaching the slide, peeking underneath, and revealing the rest? That would be worthy of an appearance on America's Cutest Puppy Videos! (Not sure if such a show exists, but it should!) Thanks!
> 
> 💚💛🧡💜💙


I can’t promise… I’ll try to remember! Usually, when I’m getting ready to take them to bed, I’m just thinking about that! LOL!


----------



## strawberry

Your set up looks great and the puppies are adorable!!


----------



## LWalks

The BEST end to a long week is watching this video. They are amazing


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

That play video is just the cutest ever!


----------



## krandall

Cooperative care… clipping nails while chewing a bully stick. Ducky thought it was a fair exchange!


----------



## krandall

Peeps… In one end and out the other…


----------



## krandall

Mama teaches everyone how to do the tippy board. “This way, children!”









How many puppies does it take to balance a mama?










We’ve got this!


----------



## krandall

It’s been a really fun day, but I’m REALLY tired… Can we go to bed now?


----------



## krandall

No rest for the wicked… The only thing I really don’t enjoy with the puppies… every couple of days, after putting everyone to bed, no matter HOW tired I am, I need to tear the puppy pen apart, wash everything, scrub the pen, and leave it to dry overnight with the overhead fan on. The best way to teach puppies to stay clean is to keep their environment clean. I can sleep when I‘m dead! (Or after they go home! LOL!) the vinyl floor is drying, the yoga mats are clean and hung up on the deck. The litter boxes have been cleaned out, and all the soft toys sorted out, and anything thatneeds it has been thrown in the wash. Bedding needs to all be washed every couple of days too, but I have extras of those, so like toys, they can be washed and rotated as needed.


----------



## Ditto's Mom

Wow! Pictures of the pups and a super clean puppy area anyone would be exhausted! When the pups leave you won't know what to do with yourself LOL!!


----------



## krandall

Also thought I’d show you a photo of the whole outdoor puppy pen (sans puppies) at the moment. Like the indoor pen, what is in it changes all the time. UNLIKE the indoor pen, the puppies are never alone in this pen (3 expens attached together) for a SECOND!) at their current size they are all EASY hawk bait, and there are plenty of them around, with babies on the nest needing to be fed. Those chairs are as far away as we ever get. Often we are in the pen, interacting with them! I was only able to take a photo of the whole pen from the deck BECAUSE there were ni puppies in it, so I could step away!


----------



## Tere

I think that Karen should include in her list of requirements(and I'm sure there are many!) to the new puppy owners that they must 
1. Join the Havanese Forum
2. Give us weekly progress pictures 
Especially my little JB, although I have a sneaking suspicion that the owner of JB is already a member. Just guessing! He is way too wonderful for Karen to let go of.


----------



## krandall

Ditto's Mom said:


> Wow! Pictures of the pups and a **** and span puppy area anyone would be exhausted! When the pups leave you won't know what to do with yourself LOL!!


Then I will be VERY busy training the one I keep, and brushing Kodi and Panda back up in all the training THEY have missed so that we can get back to trialing again, now that we are vaccinated!!! AND… I REALLY want to get Pixel’s Rally Novice done this summer!!!


----------



## krandall

Tere said:


> I think that Karen should include in her list of requirements(and I'm sure there are many!) to the new puppy owners that they must
> 1. Join the Havanese Forum
> 2. Give us weekly progress pictures
> Especially my little JB, although I have a sneaking suspicion that the owner of JB is already a member. Just guessing! He is way too wonderful for Karen to let go of.


I have SUGGESTED that the puppy owners join the forum, but that’s up to them! (I happen to know at least one is here… I will let her out hereself when she’s ready ) They are all on my FB page for the litter, for anyone who wants to join that!


----------



## krandall

Oh, here is another adorable one from yesterday… Panda in the tunnel with the pups!


----------



## 31818

Ditto's Mom said:


> When the pups leave you won't know what to do with yourself LOL!!


Yes she will! Karen always has something going on in her life, she just doesn't always share with us.


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

krandall said:


> I have SUGGESTED that the puppy owners join the forum, but that’s up to them! (I happen to know at least one is here… I will let her out hereself when she’s ready ) They are all on my FB page for the litter, for anyone who wants to join that!


Is it me??????????????🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🚗✈🚕🐶😁😁😁😁😁😁😂😘


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> (I happen to know at least one is here… I will let her out hereself when she’s ready )


HMMMMMMMMMM...........................I could make an uneducated guess. Her initials are I.D.K.


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

Ricky Ricardo said:


> HMMMMMMMMMM...........................I could make an uneducated guess. Her initials are I.D.K.


Really? I thought it was A.N Other🤣😘


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Yes she will! Karen always has something going on in her life, she just doesn't always share with us.


LOL! i always seem to have TOO much going on in my life!


----------



## krandall

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Is it me??????????????🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🚗✈🚕🐶😁😁😁😁😁😁😂😘


I don’t know… are you planning to fly here to pick one up?


----------



## Lalla

I’ve been away from the forum for a few days and so much has happened! Wonderful to come back to such gorgeous photos and videos, thank you Karen for such generosity, and when you are obviously SO busy! The whole subject of ‘enriched environment’ is so interesting - my husband is a neuroscientist and has given me some papers to read on it. I cannot imagine a better set up than that which you have created for those lucky puppies, and their very, very lucky future owners. What a start in life. The best.


----------



## krandall

Lalla said:


> I’ve been away from the forum for a few days and so much has happened! Wonderful to come back to such gorgeous photos and videos, thank you Karen for such generosity, and when you are obviously SO busy! The whole subject of ‘enriched environment’ is so interesting - my husband is a neuroscientist and has given me some papers to read on it. I cannot imagine a better set up than that which you have created for those lucky puppies, and their very, very lucky future owners. What a start in life. The best.


Thank you, Lala! I am certainly doing my best! And watching their little brains develop and make connections is just so amazing. Some of the puppies have caught on to their litter training faster than other. One of the slower ones very deliberately stopped during his play today, RACED over to the litter tray to pee. I was standing there at the time, and immediately leaned over, told him what a good boy he was and stroked him. He was SO pleased with himself!!! He wagged his little tail so hard that he practically knocked himself off his feet! You could TELL he knew he got it right!


----------



## Lalla

Clever boy!! They are so funny when the tail wagging nearly knocks them over! One of my happiest memories of a very tiny Tycho was when he first tried to cock his leg to pee and fell over!


----------



## ShamaMama

Tere said:


> I think that Karen should include in her list of requirements(and I'm sure there are many!) to the new puppy owners that they must
> 1. Join the Havanese Forum
> 2. Give us weekly progress pictures


Hear, hear!

💚💛🧡💜💙


----------



## krandall

Lalla said:


> Clever boy!! They are so funny when the tail wagging nearly knocks them over! One of my happiest memories of a very tiny Tycho was when he first tried to cock his leg to pee and fell over!


Awww! ❤


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

Rats I replied to the wrong thing and now I can’t edit it how I want🙄🙄. Ignore this🙈


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

I remember posting in one of Tom King's puppy threads that I thought it must be awfully hard to see the puppies go to new homes. He posted back saying something like it was actually a relief as there is so much effort and work involved in getting the pups ready for adoption. After reading all Karen's posts, I now understand why!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

krandall said:


> I don’t know… are you planning to fly here to pick one up?


🤣you’re safe for now…see Covid restrictions do have _some _benefits😘.
Although I sometimes daydream that when daughter is all grown up I’d love to hire a car and drive across America from the East to West coast. I’ve now upgraded this idea to bringing Flo with me and us stopping off and saying hello to all the regular forum members😁. Don’t panic it’s _never _going to happen but in a pretend/make believe scenario of “What’s your perfect trip?” *that *would be my best holiday ever!




krandall said:


> Thank you, Lala! I am certainly doing my best! And watching their little brains develop and make connections is just so amazing. Some of the puppies have caught on to their litter training faster than other. One of the slower ones very deliberately stopped during his play today, RACED over to the litter tray to pee. I was standing there at the time, and immediately leaned over, told him what a good boy he was and stroked him. He was SO pleased with himself!!! He wagged his little tail so hard that he practically knocked himself off his feet! You could TELL he knew he got it right!


This just made my heart burst /melt ❤ when I read it this morning!! xx


----------



## Tere

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> I remember posting in one of Tom King's puppy threads that I thought it must be awfully hard to see the puppies go to new homes. He posted back saying something like it was actually a relief as there is so much effort and work involved in getting the pups ready for adoption. After reading all Karen's posts, I now understand why!


 When I read about all that Karen does with the puppies, I keep thinking that my back would be killing me. I often tell Shadow when I have to clean up his poop on a walk that Mommie is getting too old for all this bending. Puppies would probably be Shadow X 10,000


----------



## Melissa Brill

krandall said:


> I don’t know… are you planning to fly here to pick one up?


That made me wonder if the UK rabies requirements were different for puppies than they are for adult dogs (either quarantining, or going through the pet import requirements which require rabies vaccines 6 month wait, titers, filling out paperwork.. and (I think) flying in cargo. If they're the same then poor Flo probably wouldn't be getting an american sibling UNLESS they DID do the cross country trip - and timed it to start with getting the puppy and ended 6 months later getting all the paperwork done to travel back


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

Melissa Brill said:


> That made me wonder if the UK rabies requirements were different for puppies than they are for adult dogs (either quarantining, or going through the pet import requirements which require rabies vaccines 6 month wait, titers, filling out paperwork.. and (I think) flying in cargo. If they're the same then poor Flo probably wouldn't be getting an american sibling UNLESS they DID do the cross country trip - and timed it to start with getting the puppy and ended 6 months later getting all the paperwork done to travel back


Lol I love this forum; I have now been on the UK gov website looking up rabies and other travelling restrictions even though I have no intention of flying Flo out to the US or bringing a puppy back🤣.

OK so somewhat bizarrely (and apologies if this offends any ferret fanatics out there) but the guidelines are titled “Bringing your pet dog, cat or ferret to Great Britain” who know ferrets were such well travelled frequent flyers😁🤔

Apparently puppies can get a rabies shot from 12 weeks and then you have to wait a further 30 days after that to do a blood test to see if vaccination was successful, and then you have to wait another 3 months after the blood test before travelling. I think this is all accurate, was only skim reading as am not actually travelling🤣

Although…

Melissa made the point about dogs having to travel in cargo, which I also believe is true, and I would never do. Nor would I feel comfortable travelling with an older dog or puppy cooped up under a seat for 8 hours BUT _then _it mentioned something about the rules being different if you travel by boat!! I’m not going to look those rules up but am now making a mental note to add New York to Southampton cruise to my imaginary road trip😘😘


----------



## krandall

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> I remember posting in one of Tom King's puppy threads that I thought it must be awfully hard to see the puppies go to new homes. He posted back saying something like it was actually a relief as there is so much effort and work involved in getting the pups ready for adoption. After reading all Karen's posts, I now understand why!


That’s one of the reasons I decided to post in such detail. Where I am only having the one litter, at least in the foreseeable future, I figured it couldn’t really be construed as marketing. But I thought it was really good for people to see what a good breeder does, and HOW MUCH time and effort goes into raising a nice litter. So that when someone question, “Is $3,000 or $3,500 a fair price for a puppy?”

I can tell you with certainty that anyone who is raising puppies properly could make more money cleaning the floors at McDonalds.


----------



## krandall

GoWithTheFlo said:


> 🤣you’re safe for now…see Covid restrictions do have _some _benefits😘.
> Although I sometimes daydream that when daughter is all grown up I’d love to hire a car and drive across America from the East to West coast. I’ve now upgraded this idea to bringing Flo with me and us stopping off and saying hello to all the regular forum members😁. Don’t panic it’s _never _going to happen but in a pretend/make believe scenario of “What’s your perfect trip?” *that *would be my best holiday ever!


That doesn’t make me panic in the least! Once this horrible pandemic is under control, we’d LOVE to have you! We have plenty of guest space!!!❤


----------



## krandall

Tere said:


> When I read about all that Karen does with the puppies, I keep thinking that my back would be killing me. I often tell Shadow when I have to clean up his poop on a walk that Mommie is getting too old for all this bending. Puppies would probably be Shadow X 10,000


I do have to admit, that my back is KILLING me by the end of the day! (Knees too!)


----------



## Wulfin

I remember going through all this with my breeder and seeing the daily pictures, etc and the price is SO WORTH the time and effort a good breeder (like yourself) puts into the litter. 

With us looking at breeding Keeper one day (grumbles at the show season being cancelled AGAIN), I am glad I'm on the other side. It is a LOT of work and attention and it's always go go go. I don't know how you guys find the energy!!


----------



## Melissa Brill

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Lol I love this forum; I have now been on the UK gov website looking up rabies and other travelling restrictions even though I have no intention of flying Flo out to the US or bringing a puppy back🤣.
> 
> OK so somewhat bizarrely (and apologies if this offends any ferret fanatics out there) but the guidelines are titled “Bringing your pet dog, cat or ferret to Great Britain” who know ferrets were such well travelled frequent flyers😁🤔


A funny point - Qatar airways will allow you to travel with your falcon in cabin, but not with a dog or cat 



GoWithTheFlo said:


> Apparently puppies can get a rabies shot from 12 weeks and then you have to wait a further 30 days after that to do a blood test to see if vaccination was successful, and then you have to wait another 3 months after the blood test before travelling. I think this is all accurate, was only skim reading as am not actually travelling🤣


Yeah that sounds about right - at one point it took about 6 months to get the pet travel scheme paperwork approved, but I can see it being about 4 months or so  at this point. (Can you tell that I've researched the travel requirements to a lot of different countries  )



GoWithTheFlo said:


> Although…
> 
> Melissa made the point about dogs having to travel in cargo, which I also believe is true, and I would never do. Nor would I feel comfortable travelling with an older dog or puppy cooped up under a seat for 8 hours BUT _then _it mentioned something about the rules being different if you travel by boat!! I’m not going to look those rules up but am now making a mental note to add New York to Southampton cruise to my imaginary road trip😘😘


It depends a lot on the dog - and on your need / desire to travel ... Until this past December when we came back to the US without immediate plans to go back overseas, Perry regularly (round trip about twice a year) travels on a plane/ in cabin with total travel times of 20+ hours (for example - Kampala to the US - 2 1/2 hours in the car to the airport, check in, 2 hours or so in the airline lounge (where we can USUALLY take him out of his travel bag but sometimes there will be a difficult person in the lounge who makes noise and he has to go back in), 2 hour flight Kampala-Addis, 2 hour layover (again, sometimes can come out of his bag), 17-18 hour flight to DC... then either 4-6 hours travel by car OR a layover in DC where he does get out to use the pet relief area because he REFUSES to use a pee pad during the other layovers and a 1 hour flight plus 1 hour in the car - so approximately 19-20 hours in a plane and multiple layover or in the car hours) - the flight back is about 3 hours shorter. 

Perry has a deluxe travel bag and he just chills out, rarely gets antsy, under the seat. His bag does have two expanding sections to give him more room, but he can usually be found curled up in one of the "annexes" and not stretched out .

For travel to the UK (hypothetical at this point) our plan would be to fly (in cabin) to Europe and then take a train (or boat) across to the UK. I will consider Perry flying in cargo for 1-2 hour flights if absolutely necessary (at which point he wouldn't travel as much) but not for an 8 hour flight, so we would fly, probably to France, and then take alternative transport to the UK. 

Also - you would likely be able to fly in cabin TO the US, but would not be able to do it from the US to the UK.


----------



## krandall

Wulfin said:


> I remember going through all this with my breeder and seeing the daily pictures, etc and the price is SO WORTH the time and effort a good breeder (like yourself) puts into the litter.
> 
> With us looking at breeding Keeper one day (grumbles at the show season being cancelled AGAIN), I am glad I'm on the other side. It is a LOT of work and attention and it's always go go go. I don't know how you guys find the energy!!


No shows for you AGAIN this year?!?! not enough vaccine? Our shows are rolling. Masks and social distancing, but the shows are going on! I don’t know how things are going to change now, with the change on masking announced by the CDC… Westminster is requiring all attendees to submit a copy of their vaccine card before attendance. There is no “law”, though… it seems to be up to the club and venue. And I am SURE the area. Westminster isin New York, and here in the North East, even though the CDC says it’s safe for vaccinated people to unmask, the governors are going much more slowly, especially indoors. I’m fine with that. As someone with a compromised immune system, even fully vaccinated, I don’t see myself taking my mask off any time soon.


----------



## Wulfin

krandall said:


> No shows for you AGAIN this year?!?! not enough vaccine? Our shows are rolling. Masks and social distancing, but the shows are going on! I don’t know how things are going to change now, with the change on masking announced by the CDC… Westminster is requiring all attendees to submit a copy of their vaccine card before attendance. There is no “law”, though… it seems to be up to the club and venue. And I am SURE the area. Westminster isin New York, and here in the North East, even though the CDC says it’s safe for vaccinated people to unmask, the governors are going much more slowly, especially indoors. I’m fine with that. As someone with a compromised immune system, even fully vaccinated, I don’t see myself taking my mask off any time soon.


Yeah, we had shows scheduled and they are all cancelled until August. Other provinces are also cancelling theirs through July. We still don't have dine-in or anything open (indoor gatherings are illegal, outdoor gatherings are limited to 5, etc etc). So we're still in very tough restrictions (we are the hotspot in north america with the highest cases per capita though it is dropping fast). Regional dog shows are not highly attended here, so it's kind of crazy, but it is what it is.


----------



## Heather's

krandall said:


> No shows for you AGAIN this year?!?! not enough vaccine? Our shows are rolling. Masks and social distancing, but the shows are going on! I don’t know how things are going to change now, with the change on masking announced by the CDC… Westminster is requiring all attendees to submit a copy of their vaccine card before attendance. There is no “law”, though… it seems to be up to the club and venue. And I am SURE the area. Westminster isin New York, and here in the North East, even though the CDC says it’s safe for vaccinated people to unmask, the governors are going much more slowly, especially indoors. I’m fine with that. As someone with a compromised immune system, even fully vaccinated, I don’t see myself taking my mask off any time soon.


Our county has moved to the yellow tier. Masks are no longer being recommended if you are outside. It appears everyone is still continuing to wear a mask while outside in our town. My sister-in-law is fully vaccinated with the Pfizer vaccine and contracted COVID about three weeks ago. She has not recovered and is feeling very weak with shortness of breath and monitoring her O2 Sat. Yesterday she was told to go to the ER if her sat was <94%. Her husband received the Pfizer vaccine and so far is ok. We will continue to be cautious and wear a mask. 😷


----------



## krandall

Heather's said:


> Our county has moved to the yellow tier. Masks are no longer being recommended if you are outside. It appears everyone is still continuing to wear a mask while outside in our town. My sister-in-law is fully vaccinated with the Pfizer vaccine and contracted COVID about three weeks ago. She has not recovered and is feeling very weak with shortness of breath and monitoring her O2 Sat. Yesterday she was told to go to the ER if her sat was <94%. Her husband received the Pfizer vaccine and so far is ok. We will continue to be cautious and wear a mask. 😷


Here in MA, we have a very high rate of vaccination, but fortunately, people still seem to be taking masking seriously. i see people starting to drop their masks outdoors when they are not near anyone, and that just makes sense. But I was standing in line, outdoors, picking up lobster rolls the other day. Everyone was staying properly distanced, and everyone was also still masked. Many were TALKING about the new CDC guidelines, but no one was taking off their masks…


----------



## ShamaMama

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Although I sometimes daydream that when daughter is all grown up I’d love to hire a car and drive across America from the East to West coast. I’ve now upgraded this idea to bringing Flo with me and us stopping off and saying hello to all the regular forum members😁. Don’t panic it’s _never _going to happen but in a pretend/make believe scenario of “What’s your perfect trip?” *that *would be my best holiday ever!


You're welcome to come visit us anytime in the summer. We live 90 minutes from the Minneapolis-St. Paul airport (and the Mall of America ...)

💚💛🧡💜💙


----------



## LeleRF

Heather's said:


> Our county has moved to the yellow tier. Masks are no longer being recommended if you are outside. It appears everyone is still continuing to wear a mask while outside in our town. My sister-in-law is fully vaccinated with the Pfizer vaccine and contracted COVID about three weeks ago. She has not recovered and is feeling very weak with shortness of breath and monitoring her O2 Sat. Yesterday she was told to go to the ER if her sat was <94%. Her husband received the Pfizer vaccine and so far is ok. We will continue to be cautious and wear a mask. 😷


I’m so sorry to hear that, Heather. Is it thought she has contracted one of the variants? I hope she improves soon.


----------



## Heather's

LeleRF said:


> I’m so sorry to hear that, Heather. Is it thought she has contracted one of the variants? I hope she improves soon.


Thanks Lele...I guess it could be a variant, but she doesn't know. Unfortunately she is one of 5% to contract COVID after beginning fully vaccinated? California is opening up in four weeks.😬 I will be one of those continuing to wear a mask!
Back to happy thoughts and puppies! 😁


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

Heather's said:


> Thanks Lele...I guess it could be a variant, but she doesn't know. Unfortunately she is one of 5% to contract COVID after beginning fully vaccinated? California is opening up in four weeks.😬 I will be one of those continuing to wear a mask!
> Back to happy thoughts and puppies! 😁


I am sorry to hear about your sister-in-law too😔 I hope she makes a full recovery very soon😘

You make a really good point about the “other” 5%, I think we’re all so desperate for the vaccines to work and get back to some sort of normality, that we easily overlook the fact that they are not 100% effective. Not saying this in a judgemental way, I think it’s just human nature to push it to the back of our minds, a bit like car crash statistics whenever we get in a car. 

xx


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

Melissa Brill said:


> A funny point - Qatar airways will allow you to travel with your falcon in cabin, but not with a dog or cat
> 
> 
> Yeah that sounds about right - at one point it took about 6 months to get the pet travel scheme paperwork approved, but I can see it being about 4 months or so  at this point. (Can you tell that I've researched the travel requirements to a lot of different countries  )
> 
> 
> It depends a lot on the dog - and on your need / desire to travel ... Until this past December when we came back to the US without immediate plans to go back overseas, Perry regularly (round trip about twice a year) travels on a plane/ in cabin with total travel times of 20+ hours (for example - Kampala to the US - 2 1/2 hours in the car to the airport, check in, 2 hours or so in the airline lounge (where we can USUALLY take him out of his travel bag but sometimes there will be a difficult person in the lounge who makes noise and he has to go back in), 2 hour flight Kampala-Addis, 2 hour layover (again, sometimes can come out of his bag), 17-18 hour flight to DC... then either 4-6 hours travel by car OR a layover in DC where he does get out to use the pet relief area because he REFUSES to use a pee pad during the other layovers and a 1 hour flight plus 1 hour in the car - so approximately 19-20 hours in a plane and multiple layover or in the car hours) - the flight back is about 3 hours shorter.
> 
> Perry has a deluxe travel bag and he just chills out, rarely gets antsy, under the seat. His bag does have two expanding sections to give him more room, but he can usually be found curled up in one of the "annexes" and not stretched out .
> 
> For travel to the UK (hypothetical at this point) our plan would be to fly (in cabin) to Europe and then take a train (or boat) across to the UK. I will consider Perry flying in cargo for 1-2 hour flights if absolutely necessary (at which point he wouldn't travel as much) but not for an 8 hour flight, so we would fly, probably to France, and then take alternative transport to the UK.
> 
> Also - you would likely be able to fly in cabin TO the US, but would not be able to do it from the US to the UK.


How fantastic - now I want to own a falcon just so I can take it on a plane!

It’s great that Perry is such a good traveller🙂. Am I right in saying it’s Perry who has been known to use the outside airport shrubbery for a quick toilet break? I thought that was ingenious when I read it on another post.

I wonder if the thought of flying with Flo is so unappealing because pretty much all our flights would be international, with all the passport check-in palava etc. Whereas in America I am guessing internal flights are not uncommon plus you get to keep your pup with you in cabin, so the whole idea of flying with them is less daunting. 

Either way you look at it the 17-18 hour Addis to DC flight is impressive for you AND Perry🤩Although I could maybe face it by travelling first class…obviously I would be paying for this imaginary flight with my imaginary cheque book😂😘



ShamaMama said:


> You're welcome to come visit us anytime in the summer. We live 90 minutes from the Minneapolis-St. Paul airport (and the Mall of America ...)
> 
> 💚💛🧡💜💙





krandall said:


> That doesn’t make me panic in the least! Once this horrible pandemic is under control, we’d LOVE to have you! We have plenty of guest space!!!❤


Shamamama & Karen you’re both so lovely 💕😊
PS Great news Melissa has mentioned I might be able to fly out with Flo in cabin (but not back, she would have to fly cargo😤) so I might be coming to visit after all…for about 15 years🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣xx


----------



## Melissa Brill

GoWithTheFlo said:


> How fantastic - now I want to own a falcon just so I can take it on a plane!
> 
> It’s great that Perry is such a good traveller🙂. Am I right in saying it’s Perry who has been known to use the outside airport shrubbery for a quick toilet break? I thought that was ingenious when I read it on another post.


He is an amazing traveler. I think Karen mentioned using the potted shrubs outside to potty a tiny Hav puppy . Perry is not that particular outside - he's happy enough to use the grass along the airport or even the pavement OR the artificial turf in the "pet relief area" inside... just never a pee pad 



GoWithTheFlo said:


> I wonder if the thought of flying with Flo is so unappealing because pretty much all our flights would be international, with all the passport check-in palava etc. Whereas in America I am guessing internal flights are not uncommon plus you get to keep your pup with you in cabin, so the whole idea of flying with them is less daunting.


Actually I must prefer to travel with him internationally rather than internal/ US flights. But then again, I pretty much hate taking domestic US flights personally so that may be the reason more so than anything to do with how he flies.




GoWithTheFlo said:


> Either way you look at it the 17-18 hour Addis to DC flight is impressive for you AND Perry🤩Although I could maybe face it by travelling first class…obviously I would be paying for this imaginary flight with my imaginary cheque book😂😘


I will admit that we do fly business as often as possible. Sometimes if you book far enough in advance it's only about twice the economy cost... other times I'm able to use miles to upgrade. It definitely makes the flight easier, that's for sure!




GoWithTheFlo said:


> Shamamama & Karen you’re both so lovely 💕😊
> PS Great news Melissa has mentioned I might be able to fly out with Flo in cabin (but not back, she would have to fly cargo😤) so I might be coming to visit after all…for about 15 years🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣xx


well, you could fly back in cabin and spend some time in France  then take the train back to the UK.


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

Melissa Brill said:


> well, you could fly back in cabin and spend some time in France  then take the train back to the UK.


🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫you’re not supposed to remind them about that part😝😁😘


----------



## Melissa Brill

GoWithTheFlo said:


> 🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫you’re not supposed to remind them about that part😝😁😘


Just trying to make it easier for you and Flo to come visit us (assuming I'm still in the US - otherwise, you're welcome to visit whereever we are  )


----------



## ShamaMama

Heather's said:


> Thanks Lele...I guess it could be a variant, but she doesn't know. Unfortunately she is one of 5% to contract COVID after beginning fully vaccinated? California is opening up in four weeks.😬 I will be one of those continuing to wear a mask! Back to happy thoughts and puppies! 😁


We're thinking of your sister-in-law.

💚💛🧡💜💙


----------



## krandall

Back to puppies! We had a REALLY busy day! we practiced stacking on the table for the first time, and Boy! Were we wiggly! We liked the food, though!

















Then we went for our first “official” car ride. Well, not counting the ones when we were in the little warming box, because we really don’t remember those!!! Mama rode with us, and we nursed and listened to Pandora for the ride around the block. It didn’t seem like a big deal! Karen could hear us slurping away the whole time!


----------



## krandall

Panda did a great job showing us the difference between “want” and “need” with a bunch of whiney puppies. She’s an awesome mama, and when she will lie right beside them and ignore them… you can bet your bottom dollar, they don’t really NEED anything, no matter HOW pathetic they sound!


----------



## krandall

And this hasn’t finished processing, but I wanted to get it posted before I went to bed… Just a fun video of the kids playing outside today!


----------



## JaJa

krandall said:


> And this hasn’t finished processing, but I wanted to get it posted before I went to bed… Just a gun video of the kids playing outside today!


I can't believe how fast your babies are growing❣They make my eyes well up, they're all so sooo precious. Thank you for sharing your journey with us!


----------



## JaJa

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Lol I love this forum; I have now been on the UK gov website looking up rabies and other travelling restrictions even though I have no intention of flying Flo out to the US or bringing a puppy back🤣.
> 
> OK so somewhat bizarrely (and apologies if this offends any ferret fanatics out there) but the guidelines are titled “Bringing your pet dog, cat or ferret to Great Britain” who know ferrets were such well travelled frequent flyers😁🤔
> 
> Apparently puppies can get a rabies shot from 12 weeks and then you have to wait a further 30 days after that to do a blood test to see if vaccination was successful, and then you have to wait another 3 months after the blood test before travelling. I think this is all accurate, was only skim reading as am not actually travelling🤣
> 
> Although…
> 
> Melissa made the point about dogs having to travel in cargo, which I also believe is true, and I would never do. Nor would I feel comfortable travelling with an older dog or puppy cooped up under a seat for 8 hours BUT _then _it mentioned something about the rules being different if you travel by boat!! I’m not going to look those rules up but am now making a mental note to add New York to Southampton cruise to my imaginary road trip😘😘


You just crack me up GoWithTheFlow! I'm imagining going out for coffee, cracking each other up and 3 hours later we still haven't touched our coffee😆 I completely get how your brain works!


----------



## krandall

JaJa said:


> You just crack me up GoWithTheFlow! I'm imagining going out for coffee, cracking each other up and 3 hours later we still haven't touched our coffee😆 I completely get how your brain works!


I wish we could ALL get together for a real, live forum party!


----------



## ShamaMama

krandall said:


> Panda did a greta job showing us the difference between “want” and “need” with a bunch of whiney puppies. She’s an awesome mama, and when she will lie right beside them and ignore them… you can bet your bottom dollar, they don’t really NEED anything, no matter HOW pathetic they sound!


That was worth watching until the end! Ha!

💚💛🧡💜💙


----------



## PooPayGrandma

JaJa said:


> I can't believe how fast your babies are growing❣They make my eyes well up, they're all so sooo precious. Thank you for sharing your journey with us!


I loved watching this video. Now I want a dozen puppies! 😂 

(Side note) I really like how you have them set up in the backyard. I am going to copy it. Also your place is beautiful, so peaceful. I wish I could have my flower beds look as good. I can’t seem to get the weeds under control and now with the puppy coming, we won’t use chemicals anymore. I’m thinking of moving to river rock.


----------



## krandall

PooPayGrandma said:


> I loved watching this video. Now I want a dozen puppies! 😂
> 
> (Side note) I really like how you have them set up in the backyard. I am going to copy it. Also your place is beautiful, so peaceful. I wish I could have my flower beds look as good. I can’t seem to get the weeds under control and now with the puppy coming, we won’t use chemicals anymore. I’m thinking of moving to river rock.


We’ve never used chemicals! Too many kids, dogs and horses!
I used to do all my own gardening. I have to admit that I do have someone who does the spring clean-up for me now!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

JaJa said:


> You just crack me up GoWithTheFlow! I'm imagining going out for coffee, cracking each other up and 3 hours later we still haven't touched our coffee😆 I completely get how your brain works!


🤣🤣That sounds like a date to me😀 Obviously being English I will have to smuggle along some tea bags for my cup of tea instead😘. 


krandall said:


> I wish we could ALL get together for a real, live forum party!


I would love that🥰 Alas I will have to do the next best thing and watch you all meet up in some videos🙂. Just been watching the puppy ones with Flo…I think she likes to watch them with me to make me feel less self conscious about being a havaholic🐶🐶🐶❤


----------



## JaJa

krandall said:


> I wish we could ALL get together for a real, live forum party!


That would be the ultimate coffee date😋


----------



## JaJa

GoWithTheFlo said:


> 🤣🤣That sounds like a date to me😀 Obviously being English I will have to smuggle along some tea bags for my cup of tea instead😘.
> 
> I would love that🥰 Alas I will have to do the next best thing and watch you all meet up in some videos🙂. Just been watching the puppy ones with Flo…I think she likes to watch them with me to make me feel less self conscious about being a havaholic🐶🐶🐶❤


Jodie loves to watch TV and YouTube videos about dogs. She likes to chase them as they run across the screen. If there was a 12 step group for Havaholics we would have to admit we're powerless over their cuteness😆


----------



## Melissa Brill

JaJa said:


> Jodie loves to watch TV and YouTube videos about dogs. She likes to chase them as they run across the screen. If there was a 12 step group for Havaholics we would have to admit we're powerless over their cuteness😆


Perry watches dogs on TV - though they seem to upset him more than it being something he likes. However, he has zero interest in them on a computer or phone screen. I think he thinks that they're in the house (when they're on the big TV screen) but doesn't care if they're on the computer.


----------



## JaJa

Melissa Brill said:


> Perry watches dogs on TV - though they seem to upset him more than it being something he likes. However, he has zero interest in them on a computer or phone screen. I think he thinks that they're in the house (when they're on the big TV screen) but doesn't care if they're on the computer.


Cotton has no interest in dogs on any device. It's just Jodie who literally saw a dog food commercial a few seconds ago and gave a low level woof to the TV.


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

GoWithTheFlo said:


> 🤣🤣That sounds like a date to me😀 Obviously being English I will have to smuggle along some tea bags for my cup of tea instead😘.
> 
> I would love that🥰 Alas I will have to do the next best thing and watch you all meet up in some videos🙂. Just been watching the puppy ones with Flo…I think she likes to watch them with me to make me feel less self conscious about being a havaholic🐶🐶🐶❤


We have lots and lots of tea! Come to our house! DD loves tea and has it for breakfast every morning.

Although, I recently read only black tea is considered “real tea?” I only buy “blends” if they have black tea in them because I thought it would reduce the caffeine and I didn’t want to caffein-ate my teenager. I tried to learn about tea because of her love for it and later read there isn’t really a way to control whether it’s a high or low caffeine amount and it varies from cup to cup. So I’m pretty sure my “blend” tactic is useless but it’s kind of hard to find reliable information and I don’t really know anyone who drinks tea! So we’ll need to add time in this trip itinerary for us to learn about tea properly. It’s already sounding like you need to extend your stay!

I have to watch dog videos on mute, I can’t believe so many people have dogs that are okay with it! Sundance doesn’t understand the sound isn’t real, he runs to the door and waits or starts barking out the window. Especially if they’re play sounds, he gets SO sad, like we’re betraying him by keeping him inside, away from his imaginary playmates.


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

PooPayGrandma said:


> I loved watching this video. Now I want a dozen puppies! 😂
> 
> (Side note) I really like how you have them set up in the backyard. I am going to copy it. Also your place is beautiful, so peaceful. I wish I could have my flower beds look as good. I can’t seem to get the weeds under control and now with the puppy coming, we won’t use chemicals anymore. I’m thinking of moving to river rock.


I’m not a gardener but I’ve been talking to my mom about this because they’ve always had beautiful landscaping in very different climates and I really want to improve my gardening skills this year. I really think one of the tricks to avoiding chemicals and still have a great, low maintenance yard are native and truly climate appropriate plants. Maybe it’s not a problem in less extreme climates, but we live in the desert and so many of the nurseries here sell plants that are really high maintenance but they’re popular because they’re pretty. When I started only adding plants that are recommended specifically by the university extension programs for our county, all of those have done beautifully, and I haven’t killed a single one. the crazy thing is many of them I had to order from nurseries out of state! Hopefully I did better research this time because I have some bulbs to plant this year that are definitely not native but seem to do better in the heat. Maybe next year our low white fence will have pretty green plants in front of it next year like Karen’s!


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

JaJa said:


> Jodie loves to watch TV and YouTube videos about dogs. She likes to chase them as they run across the screen. If there was a 12 step group for Havaholics we would have to admit we're powerless over their cuteness😆


Maybe DH is right and we just need a bigger tv. For Sundance to see the dogs better.


----------



## PooPayGrandma

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I’m not a gardener but I’ve been talking to my mom about this because they’ve always had beautiful landscaping in very different climates and I really want to improve my gardening skills this year. I really think one of the tricks to avoiding chemicals and still have a great, low maintenance yard are native and truly climate appropriate plants. Maybe it’s not a problem in less extreme climates, but we live in the desert and so many of the nurseries here sell plants that are really high maintenance but they’re popular because they’re pretty. When I started only adding plants that are recommended specifically by the university extension programs for our county, all of those have done beautifully, and I haven’t killed a single one. the crazy thing is many of them I had to order from nurseries out of state! Hopefully I did better research this time because I have some bulbs to plant this year that are definitely not native but seem to do better in the heat. Maybe next year our low white fence will have pretty green plants in front of it next year like Karen’s!


That’s great information. I’m going to look into more information with the university extension. Thank you!


----------



## Mando's Mommy

JaJa said:


> Cotton has no interest in dogs on any device. It's just Jodie who literally saw a dog food commercial a few seconds ago and gave a low level woof to the TV.


Mando, like Cotton, also pays no attention whatsoever to dogs on any device. A mirror, on the other hand, is a totally different matter!


----------



## JaJa

EvaE1izabeth said:


> We have lots and lots of tea! Come to our house! DD loves tea and has it for breakfast every morning.
> 
> Although, I recently read only black tea is considered “real tea?” I only buy “blends” if they have black tea in them because I thought it would reduce the caffeine and I didn’t want to caffein-ate my teenager. I tried to learn about tea because of her love for it and later read there isn’t really a way to control whether it’s a high or low caffeine amount and it varies from cup to cup. So I’m pretty sure my “blend” tactic is useless but it’s kind of hard to find reliable information and I don’t really know anyone who drinks tea! So we’ll need to add time in this trip itinerary for us to learn about tea properly. It’s already sounding like you need to extend your stay!
> 
> I have to watch dog videos on mute, I can’t believe so many people have dogs that are okay with it! Sundance doesn’t understand the sound isn’t real, he runs to the door and waits or starts barking out the window. Especially if they’re play sounds, he gets SO sad, like we’re betraying him by keeping him inside, away from his imaginary playmates.


I'm so glad to have life back to normal here, I have really missed reading your posts EvaE1izabeth! Now I have to correct my PitaPata strip. My Dad was an avid tea drinker and loved black tea and green tea. He was happy to have his black tea mixed in with others though. Ed being Japanese my Dad would only have green tea straight up since Ed knew what to get when he went to Japan on business trips. My Dad used an egg timer for steeping his tea to get it just right 😆
Speaking of my Dad, his Havanese did the same thing with dogs on TV. It was very entertaining but then I would feel bad for laughing at him. although he seemed fine after I got a couple tiny bites of boiled chicken for him😋


----------



## JaJa

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I’m not a gardener but I’ve been talking to my mom about this because they’ve always had beautiful landscaping in very different climates and I really want to improve my gardening skills this year. I really think one of the tricks to avoiding chemicals and still have a great, low maintenance yard are native and truly climate appropriate plants. Maybe it’s not a problem in less extreme climates, but we live in the desert and so many of the nurseries here sell plants that are really high maintenance but they’re popular because they’re pretty. When I started only adding plants that are recommended specifically by the university extension programs for our county, all of those have done beautifully, and I haven’t killed a single one. the crazy thing is many of them I had to order from nurseries out of state! Hopefully I did better research this time because I have some bulbs to plant this year that are definitely not native but seem to do better in the heat. Maybe next year our low white fence will have pretty green plants in front of it next year like Karen’s!


That's what I did 15 years ago and it worked beautifully. In 2 weeks a tree topping expert is coming to trim everything down-way down! The little plants I brought home in a one gallon pot are now about 40 feet tall and creating more shade than we and our next door neighbors need. It's much easier to cut back though, planning and planting was a lot of work!


----------



## Melissa Brill

EvaE1izabeth said:


> ...I have to watch dog videos on mute, I can’t believe so many people have dogs that are okay with it! Sundance doesn’t understand the sound isn’t real, he runs to the door and waits or starts barking out the window. Especially if they’re play sounds, he gets SO sad, like we’re betraying him by keeping him inside, away from his imaginary playmates.


I usually have to mute them or change the channel. Perry gets so upset when he sees/ hears them - I never know if it's because he is upset that they're in his space or if he wants to play with them.

In Kampala our TV was on a corner TV stand very near french doors that went out in the yard. More than once when there was a dog on the TV Perry would run out the door and around the corner trying to find them!



Mando's Mommy said:


> Mando, like Cotton, also pays no attention whatsoever to dogs on any device. A mirror, on the other hand, is a totally different matter!


Perry has zero interest in mirrors.


----------



## ShamaMama

I think maybe puppies outgrow their interest in mirrors. Shama goes into a frenzy when any animal appears on TV, even if they're not making a sound. She also gets rattled by dogs on the computer. She growls at my screensaver which is a photo ... of her! I felt bad when I watched the Panda ignoring the puppies video, because Shama was pacing around on the floor trying to find those crying puppies that were up on my computer screen ...

💚💛🧡💜💙


----------



## Melissa Brill

ShamaMama said:


> I think maybe puppies outgrow their interest in mirrors. Shama goes into a frenzy when any animal appears on TV, even if they're not making a sound. She also gets rattled by dogs on the computer. She growls at my screensaver which is a photo ... of her! I felt bad when I watched the Panda ignoring the puppies video, because Shama was pacing around on the floor trying to find those crying puppies that were up on my computer screen ...
> 
> 💚💛🧡💜💙


Yeah they don't have to be making noise for Perry to notice the TV. However, on the rare occasion he's not paying attention to the TV to notice if an animal (doesn't always have to be dogs - though I can't find a pattern of what other animals bother him) and they make noise then muting it won't help either.  He doesn't care about the computer - but will react if they're barking or whining .


----------



## krandall

EvaE1izabeth said:


> We have lots and lots of tea! Come to our house! DD loves tea and has it for breakfast every morning.
> 
> Although, I recently read only black tea is considered “real tea?” I only buy “blends” if they have black tea in them because I thought it would reduce the caffeine and I didn’t want to caffein-ate my teenager. I tried to learn about tea because of her love for it and later read there isn’t really a way to control whether it’s a high or low caffeine amount and it varies from cup to cup. So I’m pretty sure my “blend” tactic is useless but it’s kind of hard to find reliable information and I don’t really know anyone who drinks tea! So we’ll need to add time in this trip itinerary for us to learn about tea properly. It’s already sounding like you need to extend your stay!


All I know is that when we went to Taiwan and visited the various tea rooms for tastings, (like going to wineries here) it was HIGHLY suggested to swallow no more than one sip from each cup and to spit the rest into a provided receptacle. Some of the teas are SO potent that they can cause heart irregularities in some people! Also, it turns out that the stimulant in them, even though we always call it “caffeine” here in the US, is actually something different. A substance called theobromine. Which is VERY close, chemically, to theophylline, an oral drug that used to be used to treat asthma, though it has fallen out of favor now that there are great inhaled options, and that one had all the side effects that caffeine and theobromine had! (I know about THAT because I used to have to take it!


----------



## krandall

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I’m not a gardener but I’ve been talking to my mom about this because they’ve always had beautiful landscaping in very different climates and I really want to improve my gardening skills this year. I really think one of the tricks to avoiding chemicals and still have a great, low maintenance yard are native and truly climate appropriate plants. Maybe it’s not a problem in less extreme climates, but we live in the desert and so many of the nurseries here sell plants that are really high maintenance but they’re popular because they’re pretty. When I started only adding plants that are recommended specifically by the university extension programs for our county, all of those have done beautifully, and I haven’t killed a single one. the crazy thing is many of them I had to order from nurseries out of state! Hopefully I did better research this time because I have some bulbs to plant this year that are definitely not native but seem to do better in the heat. Maybe next year our low white fence will have pretty green plants in front of it next year like Karen’s!


This is DEFINITELY true!!! I do not fgeow plants that do not like our conditions, nor do I water much at all. Our “lawn” is a mixture of plants that allow themselves to be mowed. NOT traditional “lawn grass” they get started slower in the soring, do NOT look like a golf course, but in the heat of the summer, MY lawn is still green when other people’s are brown unless they water! Same with my gardens. I water plants when they are first planted, but then they’d better be able to fend for themselves water-wise, or they are out of there! I do fertilize the flower beds, but I use organic fertilizer… usually mostly from our quickly depleting norse manure/compost pile. When that is gone, I may (gasp) have to BUY fertilizer! LOL!


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

krandall said:


> All I know is that when we went to Taiwan and visited the various tea rooms for tastings, (like going to wineries here) it was HIGHLY suggested to swallow no more than one sip from each cup and to spit the rest into a provided receptacle. Some of the teas are SO potent that they can cause heart irregularities in some people! Also, it turns out that the stimulant in them, even though we always call it “caffeine” here in the US, is actually something different. A substance called theobromine. Which is VERY close, chemically, to theophylline, an oral drug that used to be used to treat asthma, though it has fallen out of favor now that there are great inhaled options, and that one had all the side effects that caffeine and theobromine had! (I know about THAT because I used to have to take it!


 I’m going to have to look into this more, because it looks like it’s in teas with chocolate, and DD goes through those (and chai) really fast in the winter.


----------



## JaJa

PooPayGrandma said:


> That’s great information. I’m going to look into more information with the university extension. Thank you!


Welcome to the forum PooPayGrandma! Did I miss any pictures? It's very important that you contribute to the cuteness factor here😋


----------



## PooPayGrandma

No pictures yet but once I have some from the Breeder I will post them. 😊


----------



## krandall

Mom and the kids in the yard today. Big moments for today… “Manding” training for everyone, one-on-one play with “The Big Black Dog” (Pixel, Ha Ha!, video later!) and I took each one on an individual “adventure walk” around the yard out the pen!


----------



## LWalks

krandall said:


> Mom and the kids in the yard today. Big moments for today… “Manding” training for everyone, one-on-one play with “The Big Black Dog” (Pixel, Ha Ha!, video later!) and I took each one on an individual “adventure walk” around the yard out the pen!
> View attachment 174632


What a gorgeous family portrait! I can’t wait to see Pixel play with them!!


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

JaJa said:


> I'm so glad to have life back to normal here, I have really missed reading your posts EvaE1izabeth! Now I have to correct my PitaPata strip. My Dad was an avid tea drinker and loved black tea and green tea. He was happy to have his black tea mixed in with others though. Ed being Japanese my Dad would only have green tea straight up since Ed knew what to get when he went to Japan on business trips. My Dad used an egg timer for steeping his tea to get it just right 😆
> Speaking of my Dad, his Havanese did the same thing with dogs on TV. It was very entertaining but then I would feel bad for laughing at him. although he seemed fine after I got a couple tiny bites of boiled chicken for him😋


I should definitely find DD a little timer. When she makes a single cup she always puts the tea in the microwave to steep while she’s getting ready (not really sure why since she heats the water with the kettle and doesn’t turn it on) and then forgets about it. I had a little countertop timer for years that we used constantly. I think there’s something about twisting a timer that makes it easier to remember it was set in the first place. I use timers and alarms on my phone but until you mentioned your dad’s egg timer I’d forgotten about how great that little mechanical timer was!


----------



## JaJa

PooPayGrandma said:


> No pictures yet but once I have some from the Breeder I will post them. 😊


I didn't realize you were still waiting, it will be worth it❣


----------



## JaJa

krandall said:


> Mom and the kids in the yard today. Big moments for today… “Manding” training for everyone, one-on-one play with “The Big Black Dog” (Pixel, Ha Ha!, video later!) and I took each one on an individual “adventure walk” around the yard out the pen!
> View attachment 174632


That is awesome photography skills, they all look great! What kind of camera did you use?


----------



## JaJa

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I should definitely find DD a little timer. When she makes a single cup she always puts the tea in the microwave to steep while she’s getting ready (not really sure why since she heats the water with the kettle and doesn’t turn it on) and then forgets about it. I had a little countertop timer for years that we used constantly. I think there’s something about twisting a timer that makes it easier to remember it was set in the first place. I use timers and alarms on my phone but until you mentioned your dad’s egg timer I’d forgotten about how great that little mechanical timer was!


It worked well for my Dad because he was so kinesteic and had used one for years, so he didn't like the microwave timer. I kept one here for him when he visited, it was entertaining to watch him because I'm the same way at times. I have 12 different daily/weekly timers on my phone and then other temporary alarms. Ed thinks he's getting too old because he has to write things down so he doesn't forget. He's fine though, I've been doing that my entire life!😋


----------



## PooPayGrandma

JaJa said:


> I didn't realize you were still waiting, it will be worth it❣


Yes, and the wait feels endless! 😞


----------



## PooPayGrandma

JaJa said:


> I didn't realize you were still waiting, it will be worth it❣


I look at the litter pictures and videos every day. I don’t know which is ours put we will be happy with any one of those little poo-pays! ❤❤❤🐶❤❤❤


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> Big moments for today… “Manding” training for everyone, one-on-one play with “The Big Black Dog” (Pixel, Ha Ha!, video later!) and I took each one on an individual “adventure walk” around the yard out the pen!


Okay, I'll bite, what is "Manding" training? Is PANDA becoming more relaxed with your big dogs around? Those puppies are starting to look YUGE, they must be way over a pound now! Did you put a light leash on them for their walk around or did you let them roam free. The promised video should explain all.

I suppose you will be starting them on kibble soon to prepare them for their new homes. I think you will want to make it easier for new owners to feed these piglets rather than the custom gruel you have been preparing. Have you given any thought to what brand kibble you will be using? Will you start them on a puppy kibble or start immediately with a generic kibble?


----------



## Tere

PooPayGrandma said:


> I look at the litter pictures and videos every day. I don’t know which is ours put we will be happy with any one of those little poo-pays! ❤❤❤🐶❤❤❤


Are you getting one of Karen's puppies?!!!!!!!


----------



## PooPayGrandma

Tere said:


> Are you getting one of Karen's puppies?!!!!!!!


No, our puppy is from a breeder in Tennesse.


----------



## ShamaMama

Tere said:


> Are you getting one of Karen's puppies?!!!!!!!


That's what I was about to ask!!!!!!

(Inquiring minds want to know WHO is getting these puppies ...)


💚💛🧡💜💙


----------



## krandall

JaJa said:


> That is awesome photography skills, they all look great! What kind of camera did you use?



Just my awesome new iPhone! I have used it for almost all the photos of this litter. I think you all know how picky I am about cameras, and this thing has been AMAZING! Particularly in situations where I am often too busy to have a big, two-handed camera ready at hand.


----------



## Tere

PooPayGrandma said:


> No, our puppy is from a breeder in Tennesse.


I thought I solved the mystery!
Maybe it's ME and my Jelly Bean and I forgot! (senility)


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Okay, I'll bite, what is "Manding" training? Is PANDA becoming more relaxed with your big dogs around?


It is training them that rather than jumping on people when they want attention, they should sit and look at the person. It is relatively easy to teach very young puppies. The HARD part is getting the new owners and all the other people who interact with the puppy going forward to reinforce it. With this “software” installed over the instinctive “jumping” behavior, there is nothing to retain negatively later!

Pand is FINE with Pixel and Kodi around the puppies now. She probably would NOT be with out-of-household dogs. I WILL get to processing that video. It’s a shame we can’t put a video up here directly, but we can’t. So you have to wait for me to find time to process it! 🤪 



Ricky Ricardo said:


> Those puppies are starting to look YUGE, they must be way over a pound now!


Oh, even little DUCKY is over 2 lbs now!!!



Ricky Ricardo said:


> Did you put a light leash on them for their walk around or did you let them roam free. The promised video should explain all.


No leashes. Little puppies instinctively follow! I do not teach loose leash walking with a leash to start with anyway! Only when the puppy ALREADY knows to stay close do I put the leash on. It is only there as an “emergency brake”.

I DO also, sometimes, let them “roam” with supervision, but this was specifically a “follow” lesson, so I expected them to stay with me. And every one of them (individually) did!



Ricky Ricardo said:


> I suppose you will be starting them on kibble soon to prepare them for their new homes. I think you will want to make it easier for new owners to feed these piglets rather than the custom gruel you have been preparing. Have you given any thought to what brand kibble you will be using? Will you start them on a puppy kibble or start immediately with a generic kibble?


The puppy mush IS kibble. It is just softened kibble. I am using Fromm’s puppy. I have to use a puppy kibble because it is designed to soften easily in hot water, which I need until they all have teeth. Jelly still has NO teeth, so we still need mush. For this reason, I make the mush, but mix in pieces of hard kibble so that the “toothy ones” get some practice with that. They are pretty funny. One will find a piece of kibble, and start to squeak, and carry it away like a treasure to crunch up privately, then come back to the dish to “pan for gold“ again. They do like the kibble! LOL! I also have little balls that you can push pieces of kibble into so that they can pry them out. The ones with teeth like to work on those too.

Yes, I don’t know what breeders who feed raw to puppies are thinking. I know that there are some dog people who are avid raw believers. i get that. But the vast majority of puppies are going to end up in families who do not feed or understand raw. Why make things hard for them? I purposely chose a high quality kibble that was ALSO widely available, including online. So there is NO ONE who”can’t get it”. They can change to whatever they want later, and I will send them home with a gallon ziplock to get them started. But I refuse to make things tough for them food-wise. Fromm’s is a well-respected, small, American company, and I like the ingredients. The puppies have done REALLY well on it, and even when they first switched to it (and the switch to “solid” foods sometimes causes either diarrhea or constipation for puppies) their poop has been absolutely consistent, soft and formed. 

I have been feeding Panda the adult formula trough her pregnancy, and switched her to the puppy formula when the puppies were born. (So they were getting the exact same nutrient profile through their milk… again, to prevent tummy upsets) she’s done great on it too. I’ll certainly use up my vast supply of the puppy formula, but at some point, will switch the puppy I keep onto the adult fomula, along with Panda and Pixel in the AM. I have just about decided to try the tree of them on one of THK recipes in the evening. I have learned enough about plant estrogens during Panda’s pregnancy that I don’t want any of those three back on Kodi’s Limited Ingredient diet, even though they have done well on it in the past. (Know better, do better )


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> I also have little balls that you can push pieces of kibble into so that they can pry them out. The ones with teeth like to work on those too.


Now that, I HAVE to see in a video, not need or want, HAVE to see!

Fascinating information! I learn something new on HF on a daily basis. Everyone of the members here are fabulous with great, interesting perspectives on a variety of topics.


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> It is training them that rather than jumping on people when they want attention, they should sit and look at the person. It is relatively easy to teach very young puppies. The HARD part is getting the new owners and all the other people who interact with the puppy going forward to reinforce it. With this “software” installed over the instinctive “jumping” behavior, there is nothing to retain negatively later!


As you know I got RICKY at 9 months. At that point he was already hard programed to jump on people for attention by the previous owner/breeder. There was no going back. So yes, complete strangers will find RICKY in their lap unless I physically restrain him. Most visitors like it but some don't and I try to be proactive with RICKY and read strangers body language on first meeting.


----------



## PooPayGrandma

Tere said:


> I thought I solved the mystery!
> Maybe it's ME and my Jelly Bean and I forgot! (senility)


Honey I know it! I turned 50 and it went all downhill.


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> As you know I got RICKY at 9 months. At that point he was already hard programed to jump on people for attention by the previous owner/breeder. There was no going back. So yes, complete strangers will find RICKY in their lap unless I physically restrain him. Most visitors like it but some don't and I try to be proactive with RICKY and read strangers body language on first meeting.


Honestly, even most GOOD breeders don’t train this, and most pet owners are poor on follow-through. But I want to send my puppies home with as much pre-programming as I can!

And as you know, none of my adult dogs are particularly good at “not jumping”…


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

EvaE1izabeth said:


> We have lots and lots of tea! Come to our house! DD loves tea and has it for breakfast every morning.
> 
> Although, I recently read only black tea is considered “real tea?” I only buy “blends” if they have black tea in them because I thought it would reduce the caffeine and I didn’t want to caffein-ate my teenager. I tried to learn about tea because of her love for it and later read there isn’t really a way to control whether it’s a high or low caffeine amount and it varies from cup to cup. So I’m pretty sure my “blend” tactic is useless but it’s kind of hard to find reliable information and I don’t really know anyone who drinks tea! So we’ll need to add time in this trip itinerary for us to learn about tea properly. It’s already sounding like you need to extend your stay!
> 
> I have to watch dog videos on mute, I can’t believe so many people have dogs that are okay with it! Sundance doesn’t understand the sound isn’t real, he runs to the door and waits or starts barking out the window. Especially if they’re play sounds, he gets SO sad, like we’re betraying him by keeping him inside, away from his imaginary playmates.


Black tea is the only one considered “real tea“ by me if that counts😂. So here if we’re presented with a list of tea options they would possibly have a menu of herbal teas, green tea and English breakfast tea (which is what we refer to for black tea). But generally speaking, unless you are somewhere fancy or trendy, you’d just ask for a cup of tea and expect to get black tea without any clarification.

lol I can’t get my head round not knowing anyone who drinks tea ☕ 🫖 🤣🤣🤣🤣 I know that English people are renowned/joked about being obsessed with it but it looks like it must be true! Does this also mean you don’t use an electric kettle? 

Another thing that I once read in an in-flight magazine is that British people will “apologise to someone if they bump into them, even if it is not their fault!” I found this bizarre and thought to myself “no we don’t“ but it is TRUE, ever since reading it I notice that even if a stranger was to knock into me we would BOTH apologise! Except for perhaps in London where we are all incredibly rude to one another and act as if everyone is not there and invisible🙄🤣


----------



## JaJa

krandall said:


> Just my awesome new iPhone! I have used it for almost all the photos of this litter. I think you all know how picky I am about cameras, and this thing has been AMAZING! Particularly in situations where I am often too busy to have a big, two-handed camera ready at hand.


That's impressive! Im going to show Ed when he's finished with work. With the dozens of cell phones we tested, there wasn't much noticeable distinction but there sure is with your puppy photo! Is it an iPhone Pro?


----------



## krandall

JaJa said:


> That's impressive! Im going to show Ed when he's finished with work. With the dozens of cell phones we tested, there wasn't much noticeable distinction but there sure is with your puppy photo! Is it an iPhone Pro?


Yes, it’s an iPhone 12 Pro Max. That is actually a crop out of this…









But it just, in general, astounds me with what it does!


----------



## JaJa

PooPayGrandma said:


> Honey I know it! I turned 50 and it went all downhill.


Same here! Now that I'm 61 the hill is getting steeper every day😆 My husband is 55 and getting frustrated because he thinks he getting old too fast. Three of our four parents had dementia, his mom for 12 years. It's more fear then anything and when I make fun of both of us he laughs and it helps him relax. On the up side, he's been very happy to learn things that I do. Although, the second I tell myself it's just so obvious I'll remember I don't need a sticky note, I'm entering the danger zone...😋


----------



## JaJa

krandall said:


> Yes, it’s an iPhone 12 Pro Max. That is actually a crop out of this…
> View attachment 174637
> 
> 
> But it just, in general, astounds me with what it does!


Hmmm, I might have to convince Ed that it's valuable to have me test one! At one point, we were getting new phones almost every day for 3 months-although they were all androids.


----------



## krandall

Until this phone, I have NEVER been happy with the photos taken by a phone. I have rarely felt motivated to pick up the big camera with this litter. The photos from the phone are THAT good. I have a Chahoua gecko from New Caledonia, snd was taking some photos of him for our vivarium group last night, and these are photos I took… no post processing at all…
















And these are TEENY 1 1/2” geckos from Cuba that I keep. Also taken with the phone!


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> I have a Chahoua gecko from New Caledonia, snd was taking some photos of him for our vivarium group last night, and these are photos I took… no post processing
> 
> And these are TEENY 1 1/2” geckos from Cuba that I keep.


I have a couple dozen indigenous Alligator Geckos you can have for free. They are about 6 inches long at maturity. OR if you come to Cabo we have Iguanas there in the gardens - 12" -18" long, can change colors for camouflage. RICKY is immune to all of them and pays them to no attention as they scurry about, "meh, another creepy gecko."

On second thought you can't have any of them! They are valuable assets to keep unwanted pests in control. And they are fun to watch.

Who maintains your vivaria when you go on vacation? I know you go on vacation and you don't take them with you,...dogs yes, vivaria no.


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Black tea is the only one considered “real tea“ by me if that counts😂. So here if we’re presented with a list of tea options they would possibly have a menu of herbal teas, green tea and English breakfast tea (which is what we refer to for black tea). But generally speaking, unless you are somewhere fancy or trendy, you’d just ask for a cup of tea and expect to get black tea without any clarification.
> 
> lol I can’t get my head round not knowing anyone who drinks tea ☕ 🫖 🤣🤣🤣🤣 I know that English people are renowned/joked about being obsessed with it but it looks like it must be true! Does this also mean you don’t use an electric kettle?
> 
> Another thing that I once read in an in-flight magazine is that British people will “apologise to someone if they bump into them, even if it is not their fault!” I found this bizarre and thought to myself “no we don’t“ but it is TRUE, ever since reading it I notice that even if a stranger was to knock into me we would BOTH apologise! Except for perhaps in London where we are all incredibly rude to one another and act as if everyone is not there and invisible🙄🤣


DD loves peach black tea, but I’m not sure her palette is sophisticated enough for a true cup of strong, black tea 😆. There’s this old fashioned iced tea drink she likes to get at restaurants, though, I can’t remember the name of it, but I think it tastes terrible lol. The only person I know who drinks tea (aside from herbal tea when they’re sick) is DD’s former voice teacher. I’m sure people do and it doesn’t come up, but I definitely don’t know anyone who drinks tea every day the way everyone drinks coffee every day! Right now she’s on a hibiscus kick.

I did not own any kind of kettle until DD started drinking tea. Now the kettle is used many different things, I never knew! I think a lot of people do have electric kettles but I don’t. Our kettle is wearing out and DH suggested getting an electric one but I’m not sure!

Thats funny about the apologizing because I do that, and it’s common where I live for both people to apologize. I don’t think those kinds of customs are the same across the U.S. though. At one point when I was younger my friends teased me about saying “sorry” too much so I switched to “excuse me.” I think “sorry” has different implications to different people in different situations. This reminded me, though, that DD went through a stage when she was little where she said, “pardon me,” i think to be dramatic and sound interesting, because no one says that here. She also called me “mother” around the same time, until she was 6 or 7.


----------



## PooPayGrandma

JaJa said:


> Same here! Now that I'm 61 the hill is getting steeper every day😆 My husband is 55 and getting frustrated because he thinks he getting old too fast. Three of our four parents had dementia, his mom for 12 years. It's more fear then anything and when I make fun of both of us he laughs and it helps him relax. On the up side, he's been very happy to learn things that I do. Although, the second I tell myself it's just so obvious I'll remember I don't need a sticky note, I'm entering the danger zone...😋


😜 😂 Too funny! 😂 🤣


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

krandall said:


> It is training them that rather than jumping on people when they want attention, they should sit and look at the person. It is relatively easy to teach very young puppies. The HARD part is getting the new owners and all the other people who interact with the puppy going forward to reinforce it. With this “software” installed over the instinctive “jumping” behavior, there is nothing to retain negatively later!


I remember you explaining this at one point and reading about it related to puppy culture. Something I’m not quite sure I grasp yet is how it relates to, as an example, Sundance practicing all of his best tricks in a row because he’s hoping to get a taste of someone’s dinner. I don’t discourage it unless he starts whining (and even then I see it as the other person’s problem because he only whines with certain family members) but he always starts with sitting and waiting nicely. Sundance sits to get our attention all of the time, is it still considered manding as an adult? He’ll sit by the fridge and face me if he wants water, or sit by the stairs and face me if he wants to go downstairs, or sit by the door and face me to go outside.


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I have a couple dozen indigenous Alligator Geckos you can have for free. They are about 6 inches long at maturity. OR if you come to Cabo we have Iguanas there in the gardens - 12" -18" long, can change colors for camouflage. RICKY is immune to all of them and pays them to no attention as they scurry about, "meh, another creepy gecko."
> 
> On second thought you can't have any of them! They are valuable assets to keep unwanted pests in control. And they are fun to watch.
> 
> Who maintains your vivaria when you go on vacation? I know you go on vacation and you don't take them with you,...dogs yes, vivaria no.


My dog care people, funnily enough! LOL! They think it is a riot that they have frog clients! They post them on their website! LOL!

Oh I didn’t mention those? Yes, we have dart frogs in a couple of the vivariums too! 😉


----------



## krandall




----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> Oh I didn’t mention those? Yes, we have dart frogs in a couple of the vivariums too! 😉


Dart Frogs!? Now THAT I cannot top! Dart frogs, manding training, kibble gruel, vivaria...Karen you just aren't wired like us common people.

For those of you who don't know, Karen and Dave invited Momi and me to their quintessential New England farm house a couple of years ago. We have met, face to face with KODI, PIXEL, and PANDA. Unbelievable dogs. Unfortunately it was only for an hour or two. I noticed her vivaria on display in her house, but there just wasn't enough time to talk about everything. I could have spent a week there just talking about the vivaria alone. An invitation to Karen's home is an opportunity that should not be missed by anyone. I am seriously considering flying to MA (5 hours) with RICKY to attend one of Karen's Havanese play dates - Momi says, "I'm coming too!" It looks like to me she often gets more than a dozen Havanese there at one time. It is Havanese overload!


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Dart Frogs!? Now THAT I cannot top! Dart frogs, manding training, kibble gruel, vivaria...Karen you just aren't wired like us common people.
> 
> For those of you who don't know, Karen and Dave invited Momi and me to their quintessential New England farm house a couple of years ago. We have met, face to face with KODI, PIXEL, and PANDA. Unbelievable dogs. Unfortunately it was only for an hour or two. I noticed her vivaria on display in her house, but there just wasn't enough time to talk about everything. I could have spent a week there just talking about the vivaria alone. An invitation to Karen's home is an opportunity that should not be missed by anyone. I am seriously considering flying to MA (5 hours) with RICKY to attend one of Karen's Havanese play dates - Momi says, "I'm coming too!" It looks like to me she often gets more than a dozen Havanese there at one time. It is Havanese overload!


Oh, a dozen would onlybe the puppy’s relatives! We rarely have fewer than 20!


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> Oh, a dozen would onlybe the puppy’s relatives! We rarely have fewer than 20!


😱 HEAVEN!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

krandall said:


> Until this phone, I have NEVER been happy with the photos taken by a phone. I have rarely felt motivated to pick up the big camera with this litter. The photos from the phone are THAT good. I have a Chahoua gecko from New Caledonia, snd was taking some photos of him for our vivarium group last night, and these are photos I took… no post processing at all…
> View attachment 174639
> View attachment 174640
> 
> 
> And these are TEENY 1 1/2” geckos from Cuba that I keep. Also taken with the phone!
> 
> View attachment 174643


Karen these (and your other) pics are amazing🤩 



EvaE1izabeth said:


> DD loves peach black tea, but I’m not sure her palette is sophisticated enough for a true cup of strong, black tea 😆. There’s this old fashioned iced tea drink she likes to get at restaurants, though, I can’t remember the name of it, but I think it tastes terrible lol. The only person I know who drinks tea (aside from herbal tea when they’re sick) is DD’s former voice teacher. I’m sure people do and it doesn’t come up, but I definitely don’t know anyone who drinks tea every day the way everyone drinks coffee every day! Right now she’s on a hibiscus kick.
> 
> I did not own any kind of kettle until DD started drinking tea. Now the kettle is used many different things, I never knew! I think a lot of people do have electric kettles but I don’t. Our kettle is wearing out and DH suggested getting an electric one but I’m not sure!
> 
> Thats funny about the apologizing because I do that, and it’s common where I live for both people to apologize. I don’t think those kinds of customs are the same across the U.S. though. At one point when I was younger my friends teased me about saying “sorry” too much so I switched to “excuse me.” I think “sorry” has different implications to different people in different situations. This reminded me, though, that DD went through a stage when she was little where she said, “pardon me,” i think to be dramatic and sound interesting, because no one says that here. She also called me “mother” around the same time, until she was 6 or 7.





Ricky Ricardo said:


> Dart Frogs!? Now THAT I cannot top! Dart frogs, manding training, kibble gruel, vivaria...Karen you just aren't wired like us common people.
> 
> For those of you who don't know, Karen and Dave invited Momi and me to their quintessential New England farm house a couple of years ago. We have met, face to face with KODI, PIXEL, and PANDA. Unbelievable dogs. Unfortunately it was only for an hour or two. I noticed her vivaria on display in her house, but there just wasn't enough time to talk about everything. I could have spent a week there just talking about the vivaria alone. An invitation to Karen's home is an opportunity that should not be missed by anyone. I am seriously considering flying to MA (5 hours) with RICKY to attend one of Karen's Havanese play dates - Momi says, "I'm coming too!" It looks like to me she often gets more than a dozen Havanese there at one time. It is Havanese overload!


@EvaE1izabeth and @Ricky Ricardo I have the same message for you both DO IT!!🤣

EvaE1izabeth go for the electric kettle; they’re not as as much fun as a stove whistling kettle but they are much quicker to the boil.

Popi you have to go with Momi, Ricky AND EvaE1izabeth and Sundance to stay with Karen…and take her an electric kettle as a staycation gift😂

Then you _all _have to post videos of the whole weekend of havanese fun😊😊 Speaking of videos…waiting for the Pixel and pups playing video is worse than being a child waiting for Christmas morning 🎁


----------



## krandall

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Karen these (and your other) pics are amazing🤩
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @EvaE1izabeth and @Ricky Ricardo I have the same message for you both DO IT!!🤣
> 
> EvaE1izabeth go for the electric kettle; they’re not as as much fun as a stove whistling kettle but they are much quicker to the boil.
> 
> Popi you have to go with Momi, Ricky AND EvaE1izabeth and Sundance to stay with Karen…and take her an electric kettle as a staycation gift😂
> 
> Then you _all _have to post videos of the whole weekend of havanese fun😊😊 Speaking of videos…waiting for the Pixel and pups playing video is worse than being a child waiting for Christmas morning 🎁


We have two spare rooms with double beds (well, one is a pull-out couch, but sleeps two) and our travel trailer is LUXURIOUS accommodations for a couple, and if people don’t mind sharing, can sleep two more comfortably. So we can accommodate quite a few out of town guests… just sayin’…


----------



## krandall

We went for another car ride today. Destination? The back yard pen! They had a blast! Now everyone is napping again.

This time, rather than having mom IN with them, Mom was in the other side of the Variocage. It was all well and good for them to be nursing through their whole first car ride, but I wasn’t sure it wasn’t SUCH a distraction that they never even noticed! LOL! This tome there was some squeaking over being separated from mom, but they did great on their ride, and settled happily into playing as soon as I got them into their backyard pen. No sign of any car sickness!


----------



## krandall

OK, here is a very short, chaotic video of Jelly following me while I am walking. I a, not sure you can get ANYTHING out of it, but YOU try not stepping on a puppy as you video AND walk around a yard without running into anything! LOL! (And no comments about orientation until you’ve tried it, Annie! 🤪 ):


----------



## Melissa Brill

krandall said:


> OK, here is a very short, chaotic video of Jelly following me while I am walking. I a, not sure you can get ANYTHING out of it, but YOU try not stepping on a puppy as you video AND walk around a yard without running into anything! LOL! (And no comments about orientation until you’ve tried it, Annie! 🤪 ):


I'm not seeing anything attached to this one?


----------



## Mikki

krandall said:


> Mom and the kids in the yard today. Big moments for today… “Manding” training for everyone, one-on-one play with “The Big Black Dog” (Pixel, Ha Ha!, video later!) and I took each one on an individual “adventure walk” around the yard out the pen!
> View attachment 174632


I've been busy and late to the postings. Where is number 5? These little ones are growing up so fast. Precious pic.


----------



## krandall

Melissa Brill said:


> I'm not seeing anything attached to this one?


You can’t see the YouTube video I attached? Because I can see it in your response…


----------



## krandall

Mikki said:


> I've been busy and late to the postings. Where is number 5? These little ones are growing up so fast. Precious pic.


He was in there… He just hadn’t poke his nose up when I took the photo! LOL! You know, like kids on the sofa for the Christmas photo, sometimes you just have to do the best you can! LOL! If you look carefully, there is a DIFFERENT one missing from most of the photos of “only 4 puppies”. Just an issue of herding cats… errr puppies! LOL!


----------



## Mikki

krandall said:


> He was in there… He just hadn’t poke his nose up when I took the photo! LOL! You know, like kids on the sofa for the Christmas photo, sometimes you just have to do the best you can! LOL! If you look carefully, there is a DIFFERENT one missing from most of the photos of “only 4 puppies”. Just an issue of herding cats… errr puppies! LOL!


If you have a photo of him you or I can add him into the group pic. I do that lots of times in group shots. I shoot the group. Have them stand or sit still, then I go and stand or sit beside the group and have someone else take a second pic...then with the Magic of PS I combine the two pics and put myself in the picture with them.

Can't leave out the 5th puppy in this cute family pic.🐶


----------



## Tere

krandall said:


> He was in there… He just hadn’t poke his nose up when I took the photo! LOL! You know, like kids on the sofa for the Christmas photo, sometimes you just have to do the best you can! LOL! If you look carefully, there is a DIFFERENT one missing from most of the photos of “only 4 puppies”. Just an issue of herding cats… errr puppies! LOL!


Jelly Bean is there in every picture/video. I would guess that he is most outgoing, bravest of all the puppies? Now that they have matured so much, how do you view their personalities for placement? 
I am still in love with my boy, JB.


----------



## krandall

Mikki said:


> If you have a photo of him you or I can add him into the group pic. I do that lots of times in group shots. I shoot the group. Have them stand or sit still, go stand or sit beside the group and have someone else take a second pic...then with the Magic of PS I combine the two pics and put myself in the picture with them.
> 
> Can't leave out the 5th puppy in this cute family pic.🐶


Oh, which photo are you talking about? In the car or in front of the ex-pen fence? They actually ARE all in the photo against the ex-pen, Chirp is nestled against her side, head down, sleeping. I do lots of PS also, so I could do it. I’m not sure if I have another photo in the same lighting, right expression, etc. Plus, it’s not worth the effort. It’s cute, but a a low rez crop of a cell phone snap. I take 3,000 a day!


----------



## Mikki

krandall said:


> Oh, which photo are you talking about? In the car or in front of the ex-pen fence? They actually ARE all in the photo against the ex-pen, Chirp is nestled against her side, head down, sleeping. I do lots of PS also, so I could do it. I’m not sure if I have another photo in the same lighting, right expression, etc. Plus, it’s not worth the effort. It’s cute, but a a low rez crop of a cell phone snap. I take 3,000 a day!


OK ... I can't see Chirp.


----------



## Molly120213

Mikki said:


> OK ... I can't see Chirp.


The black blob of fur between Panda and Ducky is Chirp!


----------



## krandall

Molly120213 said:


> The black blob of fur between Panda and Ducky is Chirp!


Exactly!


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

Ricky Ricardo said:


> As you know I got RICKY at 9 months. At that point he was already hard programed to jump on people for attention by the previous owner/breeder. There was no going back. So yes, complete strangers will find RICKY in their lap unless I physically restrain him. Most visitors like it but some don't and I try to be proactive with RICKY and read strangers body language on first meeting.


Willow was also 9 months when I got her. Was Ricky a used dog too? And yes, she jumps up on people to get attention. For me, I don't mind her jumping on me as she's a lot easier to reach that way! Our neighbors are all dog people so they don't mind either. Most people don't seem to mind since she is so small and they think she's so cute. It would be different if she was a big 50 lb. dog! If she does jump up on someone I can usually tell when it's unacceptable to them and immediately get her to sit.


----------



## krandall

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> Willow was also 9 months when I got her. Was Ricky a used dog too? And yes, she jumps up on people to get attention. For me, I don't mind her jumping on me as she's a lot easier to reach that way! Our neighbors are all dog people so they don't mind either. Most people don't seem to mind since she is so small and they think she's so cute. It would be different if she was a big 50 lb. dog! If she does jump up on someone I can usually tell when it's unacceptable to them and immediately get her to sit.


Honestly, all mine do also, and I figure, if you come to my house, they are my dogs, it’s their home, put up or don’t come.  

That said, it is. “problem behavior” for lots of people, and pretty easy to install something different at a really young age. So why not? If the new owners don’t care, that’s up to them. If they DO care, they don’t have to re-train, sometimes using negative, “corrective” measures, somthing that is instinctive, that the puppy has been doing since birth.


----------



## Mikki

Patti doesn't jump on people but she sniffs their shoes and pant legs. After a short time I stop her from doing it as she not particularly eager for them to pet her but will put up with a little chin scratch. I find it annoying when she continues to do that.

I don't think people like a dog sniffing or jumping too much on them. A little Hello! Jump returned little return Pat on the dog is enough for me when I go visit someone with a dog. 

I recently had several contractors come in my home. One was a lady in a skirt, who after I picked up Patti to stopped her sniffing, told me she goes to a ladies house with three Yorkies that are constantly jumping and scratching her legs.


----------



## Melissa Brill

krandall said:


> You can’t see the YouTube video I attached? Because I can see it in your response…


That is so weird - must have been an issue with my internet connection because I see it now


----------



## krandall

Mikki said:


> I recently had several contractors come in my home. One was a lady in a skirt, who after I picked up Patti to stopped her sniffing, told me she goes to a ladies house with three Yorkies that are constantly jumping and scratching her legs.


When it’s work people who HAVE to be there, it’s a COMPLETELY different story. I don’t think there is ANY reason those people have to deal with my animals. So the dogs are always gated in my office when there are workers in the house. Then, if the people really WANT to meet the dogs, I will certainly let them. But if they are gated in the office, there is no chance of them getting out by mistake, and there is no reason that someone who doesn’t like, or is afraid of or uncomfortable around dogs has to put up with them while working in my house. That is COMPLETELY different than people who are their of their own free will.


----------



## krandall

The puppies will have their FORMAL temperament testing on Tuesday. But we did “BREED SPECIFIC” temperament testing today, and all five passed with flying colors. All are true Havanese. Not ONE of them could resist a paper towel roll! watch out, new owners! LOL!:


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

Karen - just curious.....do you trim Panda's bangs at all? I like that she isn't in a ponytail with the hair just hanging naturally, but if I let Willow's hair fall over her eyes like Panda's it would completely cover up her face.


----------



## krandall

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> Karen - just curious.....do you trim Panda's bangs at all? I like that she isn't in a ponytail with the hair just hanging naturally, but if I let Willow's hair fall over her eyes like Panda's it would completely cover up her face.


I’m not putting her hair upright now because she lost so much hair with the puppies!!! It USED to totally cover her face!!! I don’t want her to break any more! 😭😭😭 She looks like a Chines Crested now rather than a Havanese! The only good news is that when I grroomed her today, almost NO hair fell out. (Thank HEAVENS or ahe’d start looking like a Mexican Hairless! LOL) so I think she MAY have blown as much as she is going to. And she is STARTING to re-grow hair on her belly, where she was shaved. So MAYBE she will have a coat again… someday! LOL!

(in contrast, look how long her pony was in my sig photo…. all the white part coming out of the bow was pony tail!)


----------



## krandall

My son and nephew stopped by today for a puppy fix. So the puppies are getting exposure to young men too! That’s important!


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> My son and nephew stopped by today for a puppy fix. So the puppies are getting exposure to young men too! That’s important!


MY DOG! Is that CADBURY front and center? He is a monster Havanese! What is He.be's size?


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

krandall said:


> My son and nephew stopped by today for a puppy fix. So the puppies are getting exposure to young men too! That’s important!
> 
> View attachment 174657


Gets on plane now (yes again✈😂) so that puppies can be exposed to mad English women just in case the situation ever arises😆😘


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> MY DOG! Is that CADBURY front and center? He is a monster Havanese! What is He.be's size?


No, that is Peeps in front, who is now the biggest. But he’s not THAT much bigger. He looks bigger because he’s closest to the camera! LOL! He’s a LITTLE bigger. The only one who is a NOTICEABLY different size when they are all playing is Ducky, who is clearly smaller. cabury is farthest back in this photo, right against my son’s elbow.

He.be is quite small. About 10“, 10 lbs. So not “small” in terms of what we are seeing in the ring these days, but smaller than Panda. Which is what I wanted… a slightly smaller boy, so that, hopefully, we end up with dogs her size or smaller. It doesn’t always work that way, but that was my thought process. I love HER size, but wouldn’t want to go a lot larger, so you need to be careful.


----------



## krandall

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Gets on plane now (yes again✈😂) so that puppies can be exposed to mad English women just in case the situation ever arises😆😘


Come right ahead! LOL!


----------



## 31818

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Gets on plane now (yes again✈😂) so that puppies can be exposed to mad English women just in case the situation ever arises😆😘


Sorry, the puppies don't speak British!  🤨 😁


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Sorry, the puppies don't speak British!  🤨 😁


Then they need more socialization, obviously!


----------



## krandall

Poor Panda, the puppies are getting so big that when they nurse now, they lift her right off the ground! LOL!


----------



## krandall

The “kids” got to enjoy the deck for the first time today. I used wire shelving to “puppy proof” the railing so they can’t fall through, and put a gate across the steps.


----------



## LWalks

krandall said:


> Poor Panda, the puppies are getting so big that when they nurse now, they lift her right off the ground! LOL!
> 
> View attachment 174680


Omg she’s such a good sport! They really are getting big! Are they 7 weeks now?


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Sorry, the puppies don't speak British!  🤨 😁





krandall said:


> Then they need more socialization, obviously!


🤣🤣🤣Exactly😘😘😘.

Now behave Popi, I’m sure they are clever enough to learn American English, the Queen’s English AND Spanish if we ask Karen nicely😁😁😁😘


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

Kodi is a wise man hiding up there on the chair! Clearly he has seen Panda nursing them on 2 legs and isn’t chancing it🤣😘


----------



## 31818

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Now behave Popi, I’m sure they are clever enough to learn American English, the Queen’s English AND Spanish if we ask Karen nicely😁😁😁😘


I know that RICKY understands swearing in "Merican" English, Queen's English, and Spanish. I can't imagine where he learned that!



GoWithTheFlo said:


> Kodi is a wise man hiding up there on the chair! Clearly he has seen Panda nursing them on 2 legs and isn’t chancing it🤣😘


Sometimes, no comment is the best comment!


----------



## krandall

Lisa Walker said:


> Omg she’s such a good sport! They really are getting big! Are they 7 weeks now?


Yes, 7 weeks on Monday. Technically, they don’t NEEd to nurse… they are all eating solid food. But she’s still willing, so…


----------



## krandall

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Kodi is a wise man hiding up there on the chair! Clearly he has seen Panda nursing them on 2 legs and isn’t chancing it🤣😘


He HATES it when they try to nurse on him! LOL! He used to LOVE puppies! Not so much anymore!


----------



## Lalla

Gorgeous photos, Karen; how are you ever going to bear to part with any of them???!!


----------



## krandall

Lalla said:


> Gorgeous photos, Karen; how are you ever going to bear to part with any of them???!!


It’s going to be tough! And it is getting more real with less than 3 weeks to go! 😭


----------



## krandall

Todaywas BAER testing and microchips. The microchips used were “micro” microchips, and three of my five did not even react. The other two reacted less than most puppies do to a vaccination. So I was very pleased with that. The other litter done with mine was pretty dramatic about it, but considering that some of them were yelping before she touched them with the needle, it was not really a pain reaction! LOL!

BAER testing was also pretty non-traumatic, partially, I’m sure, because we were able to arrange to have it done at home. But the vet who did it was also very skilled and quick. All pups passed with flying colors. Full bilateral hearing! (Which was expected, but still nice to have confirmed!) My first OFA testing of my first generation of bred-by puppies!


----------



## Lalla

Oh, little things! They look so trusting and safe. What a difference an enriched environment and a truly engaged breeder does make - obvious even from only seeing photographs.


----------



## Lalla

And what about the BAER tester’s shirt!! Way to go!! I do hope she has a mask to match!


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

Karen - can you explain how they do the Baer test? Looks like they stick something to the dog's head. Do they make a sound through these things and somehow tell if they hear it?


----------



## krandall

Lalla said:


> And what about the BAER tester’s shirt!! Way to go!! I do hope she has a mask to match!


 We were all fully vaccinated, so chose not to mask.


----------



## krandall

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> Karen - can you explain how they do the Baer test? Looks like they stick something to the dog's head. Do they make a sound through these things and somehow tell if they hear it?


They stick tiny electrode wires into the puppy’s scalp. They are VERY tiny, like acupuncture needles, and do not seem to bother them much. Then they have soft ear plugs that deliver the noises into their ears separately. They measure the messages received by the brain from both the right and left ear. (Those are the two different lines you see on her monitor). The interesting thing is that they objected more to the very soft “ear plugs” than to the electrodes. None of them wanted the ear plugs in their ears! LOL!


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

Oooo - into their scalp! I didn't think they would go into the scalp! Glad it's painless. I would think getting microchipped would hurt though. When I first read how to bathe Willow, I read I was supposed to put cotton balls into her hears. Well, that didn't work. I'm not putting anything in her ears during bath time - just being careful. One shake of her head and cotton balls went flying.


----------



## krandall

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> Oooo - into their scalp! I didn't think they would go into the scalp! Glad it's painless. I would think getting microchipped would hurt though.


The normal sized chips use an ENORMOUS needle, because the "chip" is about the size of a grain of rice! These are much smaller, and as I said, three of the puppies didn't complain at all! The other two barely had time to squeak before it was over. They complain more during play with each other.



Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> When I first read how to bathe Willow, I read I was supposed to put cotton balls into her hears. Well, that didn't work. I'm not putting anything in her ears during bath time - just being careful. One shake of her head and cotton balls went flying.


Yes! It was EXACTLY that reaction... "Get those tickly things outta my ears!" LOL!


----------



## Melissa Brill

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> Oooo - into their scalp! I didn't think they would go into the scalp! Glad it's painless. I would think getting microchipped would hurt though. When I first read how to bathe Willow, I read I was supposed to put cotton balls into her hears. Well, that didn't work. I'm not putting anything in her ears during bath time - just being careful. One shake of her head and cotton balls went flying.


Yeah I tried the cotton balls in the ears during a bath once - could never get them pushed in enough that one big head shake didn't dislodge them and send them flying!


----------



## Ditto's Mom

Interesting information on BAER testing. Such good little pups!


----------



## krandall

One more interesting thing about the “micro” microchips, and maybe why some vets choose not to use them. The pups from the other litter went to a different vet for their “well puppy” visits and first vaccinations today. (Mine will not be ready for that for another 2 weeks) Two of the four puppies had “lost“ their chips! I guess these tiny chips can sometimes fall right back out the tiny puncture hole again! It’s not the end of the world, The vet who inserted them is sending replacement chips, and will update the information on the BAER testing with OFA. But it’s good to know this can happen. I will, of course, have all my puppies checked by my vet at their well puppy visit as well. My understanding is that if it is going to happen, it happens right away.

It is a good reminder to everyone, though… chips DO migrate over time, and also can stop working. I have my vet check my dogs’ chips yearly, as part of their annual physicals, just to make sure they can be found and are still readable!


----------



## Melissa Brill

krandall said:


> It is a good reminder to everyone, though… chips DO migrate over time, and also can stop working. I have my vet check my dogs’ chips yearly, as part of their annual physicals, just to make sure they can be found and are still readable!


I have Perry's vet check his chip every visit to ensure it hasn't migrated.


----------



## krandall

Melissa Brill said:


> I have Perry's vet check his chip every visit to ensure it hasn't migrated.


Panda’s and Kodi’s are still up between their shoulder blades, right where they were placed. I can’t feel them, though my vet/chiro, who has AMAZING fingers, can feel them.

Pixel’s has migrated down onto the flat part of her shoulder, where it is easy to feel through her skin. It is one of the old, larger kind too, so it is VERY easy to find. If you pick her up wrong, with your hand RIGHT on it, it makes her “yip”. But both the vet and I have palpated it quite firmly, and can’t make her yip if she is expecting it. So we don’t think it is “pain”, so much as an unexpected “funny feeling”. We have talked about removing it and re-chipping her, but she is SUCH a “princess and the pea”, that we both think it is highly likely that she would react to any reaidual scar tissue exactly the way she does to the chip. So we’ve left it alone.


----------



## Ditto's Mom

So glad you talked about the microchips. Phoenix has his yearly vet exam in June and I will be sure to ask them to check it. Such a wealth of good information that we tend to forget sometimes😢 thanks!!


----------



## 31818

Ditto's Mom said:


> So glad you talked about the microchips. Phoenix has his yearly vet exam in June and I will be sure to ask them to check it. Such a wealth of good information that we tend to forget sometimes😢 thanks!!


I agree. I haven't had RICKY's chip checked in quite a while. I think I will take him to our local Animal Control next week and have him checked. A neighbor has a scanner here in our development but I forget who it is. Neighbors are constantly losing their dogs here (escape from backyards through an open gate) and justifies someone in our Dog Owner's Group (D.O.G.) owning a scanner.


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I agree. I haven't had RICKY's chip checked in quite a while. I think I will take him to our local Animal Control next week and have him checked. A neighbor has a scanner here in our development but I forget who it is. Neighbors are constantly losing their dogs here (escape from backyards through an open gate) and justifies someone in our Dog Owner's Group (D.O.G.) owning a scanner.


Certainly, in an HOA big enough to afford a private dog park, a chip reader just isn't that expensive. I think it would be well worth it! Just make sure that if you are going to invest in one, that you get a "universal" chip reader. Some readers are specific to a certain type of chip. The universal readers are more expensive, but still under $350.


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> Certainly, in an HOA big enough to afford a private dog park, a chip reader just isn't that expensive. I think it would be well worth it! Just make sure that if you are going to invest in one, that you get a "universal" chip reader. Some readers are specific to a certain type of chip. The universal readers are more expensive, but still under $350.


Yeah, we have had a universal scanner here for about 4 years now. The cost was around $300. It was funded by voluntary contributions. One anonymous donor gave matching funds to any contributions. It took about a day to raise the money and more. 

As an aside, our Canine Corral private "dog park" was required by the HOA Board of Directors to be self funded. One anonymous donor funded 'up to $15,000' for construction of the fence enclosure which is quite attractive. Those who want to use the facility are required to pay an annual fee for maintenance. Because of Covid restrictions, the facility is not fully operational yet. As soon as it is, I will take pictures.


----------



## krandall

One of the things we did as part of Puppy Culture training was several "barrier challenges" where the puppies had to figure out how to get around progressively more complicated series of gates to get to their food. (which they could see). Well, THAT worked well. Be careful what you teach a puppy...



























Who EVER thought it was a good idea to teach puppies to think for themselves!?!?


----------



## LeleRF

krandall said:


> View attachment 174718
> 
> 
> Who EVER thought it was a good idea to teach puppies to think for themselves!?!?


Wellllp, it looks like special precautions will need to be taken with these kiddos & the kennels or anything they can use as a prop, lest they‘ll be jailbreaking their way into mischief (or worse)! 😱


----------



## krandall

Then today I turned my training room into an indoor playground, because it's supposed to rain for the next 3 days straight, and a great time was had by all. They especially enjoyed playing with all the puppies in the mirror wall!


----------



## krandall

And then we had puppy visitors and the puppies all showed off their "manding" skills. Not bad for less than 8 weeks old!


----------



## Sheri

We really need more emoji's to respond to the posts on here! I want  for these last photos! And, clever little Ducky, he is going to be one to keep an eye on for sure! I laughed as I watched that confident little boy climbing over the ex-pen! 

And what good puppies, too, down in your training room!


----------



## Melissa Brill

krandall said:


> One of the things we did as part of Puppy Culture training was several "barrier challenges" where the puppies had to figure out how to get around progressively more complicated series of gates to get to their food. (which they could see). Well, THAT worked well. Be careful what you teach a puppy...
> View attachment 174716
> 
> 
> View attachment 174717
> 
> 
> View attachment 174718
> 
> 
> Who EVER thought it was a good idea to teach puppies to think for themselves!?!?


Uh oh, Ducky's new mom/ dad better take note otherwise they're going to go out and then come home to Ducky by the door waiting for them after climbing out of his expen!


----------



## ShamaMama

Love all your photos and videos, Karen! Thanks so much! The ones with the mirror are precious! They remind me of the video we have of Shama playing with her image in the mirror when we visited her when she was seven and a half weeks old.

I can't believe we've never thought to check the status of Shama's microchip! We'll have them check it the next time we're at the vet.

💚💛🧡💜💙


----------



## krandall

ShamaMama said:


> Love all your photos and videos, Karen! Thanks so much! The ones with the mirror are precious! They remind me of the video we have of Shama playing with her image in the mirror when we visited her when she was seven and a half weeks old.
> 
> I can't believe we've never thought to check the status of Shama's microchip! We'll have them check it the next time we're at the vet.
> 
> 💚💛🧡💜💙


It was after reading anout a chip that stopped working here on the forum that I started making chip reading a regular part of our annual physicals! It’s so easy to do! Panda’s gets read when I update her eye and heart checks for OFA anyway. But for “pet dogs” you have to ask.


----------



## Heather's

Looks like you have a little escape artist there! 🤣


----------



## mudpuppymama

My favorite picture is the triple butt shot!!!!! NOTHING is cuter in this world than a Havanese butt!


----------



## Mando's Mommy

krandall said:


> One of the things we did as part of Puppy Culture training was several "barrier challenges" where the puppies had to figure out how to get around progressively more complicated series of gates to get to their food. (which they could see). Well, THAT worked well. Be careful what you teach a puppy...
> View attachment 174716
> 
> 
> View attachment 174717
> 
> 
> View attachment 174718
> 
> 
> Who EVER thought it was a good idea to teach puppies to think for themselves!?!?


We have the same crate and Mando has jumped on top of it to escape his pen, too! Great minds think alike. 😂


----------



## krandall

Yesterday was structural evaluation day. Eight weeks is when it is generally considered the best time to look at puppies and take a GUESS at how they will turn out as adults. There are still no promises, but it tends to be a MORE balanced time in their development. ONE of the ways to look at "fluffy puppies" is by soaping them down, so that you can really SEE what is under the fluff. I won't bore you with the whole litter, but I'll just show you photos of one puppy... Little Ducky, to show you the process!

First it's normal (but first! so not "normal" to the puppy!) bath time!


















Next, enough extra soap is applied that the puppy's hair is pretty much smattered against their body. (sorry I didn't get a photo of that!)

Then the puppies are stood up and photos are taken from the side, front and back. It is not possible to assess toplines, because even though we do increase the heat in the house, the puppies are not used to being wet, they get chilly, and hunch unnaturally. They also have no CLUE how to stack on a table yet, so we try our best to get them to stand still, with greater or lesser success! LOL!





































We also take photos of their heads.



















Then we had OTHER people DRYING puppies (sorry, forgot to photograph that too... I was doing the table photos!) and they were then, in rotation, brought back to the table for dry photos.



















These really are less important, but so much fun to have of the newly "fluffed and buffed" puppies!!!

You can see how lovely and straight Ducky's legs are. I am thrilled to say that the whole litter looks great! I was pretty sure they would, but soaps don't lie!


----------



## krandall

And... Drum roll please...


----------



## krandall

Introducing...


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

Okay I’m going to keep refreshing the page in anticipation…


----------



## krandall

High Jump Shutter Bug! (AKA Ducky!😁 )


----------



## krandall

Sorry... Had to go deal with a puppy issue! LOL!


----------



## 31818

DUCKY did not look like the happiest Havanese while he was in the tub! But oh my, what a handsome boy when all fluffed up!


----------



## Melissa Brill

krandall said:


> High Jump Shutter Bug! (AKA Ducky!😁 )
> 
> View attachment 174755


YAY -- a part of me was hoping you'd go for a trio of black and white... but he's just too cute and seeing his adventurous pics seems like a good fit for agility, etc. for you!


----------



## 31818

Melissa Brill said:


> YAY -- a part of me was hoping you'd go for a trio of black and white... but he's just too cute and seeing his adventurous pics seems like a good fit for agility, etc. for you!


Wait WHAT? Aren't all the pups going to be named High Jumps something or other? I guess I'm a little "slow."


----------



## LeleRF

krandall said:


> High Jump Shutter Bug! (AKA Ducky!😁 )
> 
> View attachment 174755


Congrats on the official news & naming of the newest member of your crew! He’s one little lucky Ducky! 😉


----------



## Melissa Brill

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Wait WHAT?


I was wondering if the implication of the intro had sailed over people's heads . I was guessing that the addition of an official "High Jump" "photography name" to "Ducky" made him the selected newest member of the @krandall crew


----------



## 31818

Melissa Brill said:


> I was wondering if the implication of the intro had sailed over people's heads . I was guessing that the addition of an official "High Jump" "photography name" to "Ducky" made him the selected newest member of the @krandall crew


I guess if I was one of Karen's "photography name" dogs, my name would be High Jumps Out of Focus! Or is Karen just being her usual coy self right now.  🤨


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

krandall said:


> Sorry... Had to go deal with a puppy issue! LOL!


I had to deal with a much less interesting non-puppy issue and then I came back to the cutest pictures! Even the soaped pictures make me want to snuggle him. He is going to be such a wonderful puppy for you!


----------



## Melissa Brill

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I guess if I was one of Karen's "photography name" dogs, my name would be High Jumps Out of Focus! Or is Karen just being her usual coy self right now.  🤨


lol


----------



## Molly120213

Congratulations on a great choice! Seems like Ducky is getting a good head start on his agility with his crate climbing adventures!


----------



## Heather's

🎉🎉🎊 Lucky Ducky! Love his name! Looking forward to watching the little one grow.


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> DUCKY did not look like the happiest Havanese while he was in the tub! But oh my, what a handsome boy when all fluffed up!


NONE of them were the "Happiest Havanese" in the tub. They were all saying, "HEY! No one told us THIS was in our future!!!"


----------



## krandall

Melissa Brill said:


> YAY -- a part of me was hoping you'd go for a trio of black and white... but he's just too cute and seeing his adventurous pics seems like a good fit for agility, etc. for you!


I HAVE a trio of B&W!  But color didn't really play into the decision!


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Wait WHAT? Aren't all the pups going to be named High Jumps something or other? I guess I'm a little "slow."


Yes, they will all be "High Jump... Something".


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> DUCKY did not look like the happiest Havanese while he was in the tub! But oh my, what a handsome boy when all fluffed up!


He's saying "I'm NOT a duck, I'm NOT a duck, I'm NOT a duck!!!"


----------



## krandall

Melissa Brill said:


> I was wondering if the implication of the intro had sailed over people's heads . I was guessing that the addition of an official "High Jump" "photography name" to "Ducky" made him the selected newest member of the @krandall crew


Oh... I thought that was a given.


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I guess if I was one of Karen's "photography name" dogs, my name would be High Jumps Out of Focus! Or is Karen just being her usual coy self right now.  🤨


We'll name you High Jump Bokeh.


----------



## krandall

Molly120213 said:


> Congratulations on a great choice! Seems like Ducky is getting a good head start on his agility with his crate climbing adventures!


Not sure if he'll be doing Agility, just because MY JOINTS don't seem to be coming back around sound enough for it. We'll see! But he will CERTAINLY be doing Obedience and Rally! And HE could do agility... I just don't know if _I_ can any more. And, of course, he's got a conformation career ahead of him too!


----------



## Melissa Brill

krandall said:


> I HAVE a trio of B&W!  But color didn't really play into the decision!


Mistype  meant a quartet


----------



## krandall

Melissa Brill said:


> Mistype  meant a quartet


It was a VERY close thing! I hard a REALLY hard time choosing. They are ALL really nice puppies!


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> We'll name you High Jump Bokeh.


Now you did it, you made me look up "bokeh." Ha, Ha, Hah!

Welp, congratulations Karen. I think this little doggie merits watching in the ring. He is a beauty and I predict he will go far. Fortunately he will stay with our HF family so we can follow his progress and tell Karen what she is doing wrong! 😇

And I want you to know you have left a broken heart here on the Left Coast. DD2 wanted DUCKY! 😭


----------



## Ditto's Mom

Ducky is a beautiful new addition to the krandall pack. I can see little Pixel trying to make him her bestie.


----------



## ShamaMama

WOW! So excited for you! And so happy for Ducky too! Yes, indeed, he is one lucky duck! 

Ooh! Will you let his coat be long? I've been seeing some lovely adult red Havanese on Instagram. (Forgive me if he's not red. I've always been terrible with the Havanese colors! And I'm not going to go through this thread of 877 posts to figure it out ... Tee hee!)

I would volunteer to brush him if you lived closer to us!

ShamaPapa and I keep running through the names, coming up one short ... Jelly Bean, Cadbury (Bunny?), Chirp, Ducky, and who? Peeps?

And I did start going backwards through the 877 posts to try to figure out when you changed your signature and why no one had commented on it, and then I wondered if changing your signature changes all your past signatures too? Not going to Post 1 to check ... Please just tell me!

Must go to bed now. Up way too late working on an Instagram photo of Shama and five Havanese friends at a Swiss chocolate shop. Long story ... My last day of school is June 11!

Congratulations again on your new puppy!

💚💛🧡💜💙


----------



## krandall

Ditto's Mom said:


> Ducky is a beautiful new addition to the krandall pack. I can see little Pixel trying to make him her bestie.


She LOVES the puppies and gets a LITTLE over-protective of them, so I hope THAT wears off!


----------



## krandall

ShamaMama said:


> WOW! So excited for you! And so happy for Ducky too! Yes, indeed, he is one lucky duck!
> 
> Ooh! Will you let his coat be long? I've been seeing some lovely adult red Havanese on Instagram. (Forgive me if he's not red. I've always been terrible with the Havanese colors! And I'm not going to go through this thread of 877 posts to figure it out ... Tee hee!)


He will have to stay in long coat, because my intention is to show him! He is my first “bred by” dog!



ShamaMama said:


> ShamaPapa and I keep running through the names, coming up one short ... Jelly Bean, Cadbury (Bunny?), Chirp, Ducky, and who? Peeps?


Yes, Peeps! 



ShamaMama said:


> And I did start going backwards through the 877 posts to try to figure out when you changed your signature and why no one had commented on it, and then I wondered if changing your signature changes all your past signatures too? Not going to Post 1 to check ... Please just tell me!


On the old forum, it changed them all. I am GUESSING that is still true, but I’m not sure. (And I changed it just after making the announcement. I either have to take a new “whole family” picture for the signature banner, (and since he is a LONG way from knowing how to hold a sit, that could be a challenge) or I need to do a composite of some sort!



ShamaMama said:


> Must go to bed now. Up way too late working on an Instagram photo of Shama and five Havanese friends at a Swiss chocolate shop. Long story ... My last day of school is June 11!
> 
> Oh! You need to post that here too! Yay for the last day of school!
> 
> 
> 💚💛🧡💜💙


----------



## ScPuppy99

Hello!


----------



## Tere

Lucky Ducky! I suspected that he would be the chosen one from the beginning but I so wished it was Jelly Bean, my favorite! I really wanted to see him grow up!
So how long til the puppies leave?


----------



## krandall

Tere said:


> Lucky Ducky! I suspected that he would be the chosen one from the beginning but I so wished it was Jelly Bean, my favorite! I really wanted to see him grow up!
> So how long til the puppies leave?


Well, I am telling you the absolute truth that I had NOT made a decision, and was NOT even LEANING in the direction of Ducky until the last week, during the evaluation process. So everything before that was strictly conjecture. And my decision had NOTHING to do with his color.

Jelly, whose name will be High Jump Boo Radley will be moving to NY, splitting his time between Brooklyn and Upstate with a WONDERFUL, experienced Havanese family. Two members of the family are avid photographers, so I am SURE there will be LOTS of pictures, and they have promised visits at our play dates as well! 

It was a hard decision, but, honestly, it’s hard letting ANY of them go, and at the same time, I am eager to see them settled into their new families and starting their “real” lives as individual dogs as opposed to being part of a litter. That is not something I can do for them!


----------



## Tere

So little Ducky was the best based on the evaluation? He is very cute. What factors are looked at during the evaluation? I am wondering also how the puppies compared.
Very sweet that Pixel is protective of the puppies!


----------



## Melissa Brill

krandall said:


> She LOVES the puppies and gets a LITTLE over-protective of them, so I hope THAT wears off!


Maybe by the time Ducky is the only one left there and he's used her leg as a chew toy for the thousandth time it will wear off


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

I have lost track of what is happening🤯. Apart from the fact that you have decided to keep Ducky😊. Congratulations 🥳 I hope this means I am getting Peeps😂😘

So apologies if this has been asked already but will lucky Ducky be sticking with ”Ducky” or will he get a new name to go with his new status? X


----------



## ShamaMama

GoWithTheFlo said:


> I have lost track of what is happening🤯. Apart from the fact that you have decided to keep Ducky😊. Congratulations 🥳 I hope this means I am getting Peeps😂😘
> 
> So apologies if this has been asked already but will lucky Ducky be sticking with ”Ducky” or will he get a new name to go with his new status? X


GoWithTheFlo, you are so funny! I hope you get Peeps too AND that you start vacationing in Minnesota twice a year!

Good question about Ducky's name! Reminder to Karen that my top-secret-next-dog-name-that-isn't-really-a-secret-because-I-tell-everyone is still available ... Levity, Lev for short!

Karen, Kodi, Pixel, Panda and Lev

💚💛🧡💜💙


----------



## krandall

Tere said:


> So little Ducky was the best based on the evaluation? He is very cute. What factors are looked at during the evaluation? I am wondering also how the puppies compared.
> Very sweet that Pixel is protective of the puppies!


“Best” is a subjective thing. He is the best one for ME. ALL the puppies have very nice structure, no puppy (or dog) is perfect. They all have beautiful straight legs, a good amount of bone, neither too light nor too heavy, lovely heads and terrific Havanese temperaments. But Ducky has the best mix of conformation, size and and performance aptitude to consider adding to the gene pool in the future, IF he he passes all his health clearances, finishes his conformation championship and put some performance titles under his belt. Those are the things I expect from a dog that I would want to breed on with, just as I did with Panda. Also important, I “clicked” with him in terms of personality, and so do the other dogs. They all like him. He is also Panda’s favorite. Dave like him too.


----------



## krandall

GoWithTheFlo said:


> I have lost track of what is happening🤯. Apart from the fact that you have decided to keep Ducky😊. Congratulations 🥳 I hope this means I am getting Peeps😂😘
> 
> So apologies if this has been asked already but will lucky Ducky be sticking with ”Ducky” or will he get a new name to go with his new status? X


I think we are going to stick with Ducky as his call name. His registered name will be High Jump Shutter Bug.


----------



## LWalks

I know I’m late to the party but have to pile on with the “lucky ducky” comments— he is a lucky little gut and gorgeous! It’s been amazing seeing them all grow up!


----------



## Mando's Mommy

Lucky Ducky indeed! Congrats!


----------



## 31818

Tere said:


> So little Ducky was the best based on the evaluation? He is very cute. What factors are looked at during the evaluation? I am wondering also how the puppies compared.


Ducky was picked by Karen. But he was "best" based on what?...Karen's needs and wants. Ducky is certainly cute but he probably would not be "best" for every families' needs and wants. Watching the litter in various videos I know I had a favorite based on our family dynamics, needs, and wants and it was not Ducky. My favorite is a special dog different from Ducky and that dog (not going to give it away by gender and don't assume anything) needs to be placed in a special home because it is a special "best" puppy. I know Karen will find a good home. Looking forward to the "placement sweepstakes" in a couple of weeks. I hope all of the litter go to HF members because the whole litter are "best" in their area of strengths and I want to enjoy watching each of them as they fulfill their destinies.


----------



## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Ducky was picked by Karen. But he was "best" based on what?...Karen's needs and wants. Ducky is certainly cute but he probably would not be "best" for every families' needs and wants. Watching the litter in various videos I know I had a favorite based our family dynamics, needs, and wants and it was not Ducky. My favorite is a special dog different from Ducky and that dog (not going to give it away by gender and don't assume anything) needs to be placed in a special home because it is a special "best" puppy. I know Karen will find a good home. Looking forward to the "placement sweepstakes" in a couple of weeks. I hope all of the litter go to HF members because the whole litter are "best" in their area of strengths and I want to enjoy watching them as they fulfill their destinies.


That is EXACTLY right! I think that EACH of the puppies is “the best” for the families they are going to. Really. And the puppy who is currently “left” is only left because I PURPOSELY took less deposits than available puppies so that I could make MY final choice without pressure. He is a fabulous puppy, and I am currently evaluating potential homes to pick the VERY BEST home for him, where he will ALSO be the “best puppy” for them! I don’t want a single one of my puppies to be in a home where they are considered a second choice. If they are, I haven’t done my job!


----------



## NickieTwo

Karen, are you going to post the fluffy after soaping photos of the other puppies. I'd love to see those too.


----------



## krandall

Sure! They all look so different freshly fluffed up!!! 

Peeps









Cadbury









Boo (Was Jelly Bean)









Chirp


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

ShamaMama said:


> GoWithTheFlo, you are so funny! I hope you get Peeps too AND that you start vacationing in Minnesota twice a year!
> 
> 💚💛🧡💜💙


This made me lol😆😘xx


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

GoWithTheFlo said:


> This made me lol😆😘xx


..unless of course you live in a different state🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😘xx


----------



## krandall

I can hardly believe that the puppies will start leaving in 9 days!!! 😭 I’m making the most of this last little bit of time with them, trying to give them the best start I can… Loving them to pieces, of course, continuing their socialization with lots of visitors, car rides, experiences like wet grass and light rain. But since I have already started Ducky’s formal training, and little puppies do best with VERY short amounts of training time at this age, and (mentally) tired puppies are good puppies, I figure they might as well ALL benefit!

PLEASE do NOT think that you breeder “should” be doing this with your puppies! MOST will not be! MOST do not have the time, nor do most have an interest in performance training. But this is what I’m doing with MY litter! What I’m doing with this puppy is also great work for any puppy when you first bring him home, assuming he HASN’T learned this with his breeder. This is this puppy’s first exposure to BOTH exercises, so they learn REALLY quickly at this age!

The puppies do understand “manding”, which I discussed earlier in this thread, and they also understand the clicker and what it means.


----------



## Sheri

That was real interesting, Karen, thank your for the video! 

Do you have families chosen for each puppy now? Will any of the new families be on the Forum?


----------



## krandall

Sheri said:


> That was real interesting, Karen, thank your for the video!
> 
> Do you have families chosen for each puppy now? Will any of the new families be on the Forum?


I am interviewing one more family tomorrow. I THINK they will be the last if all goes well.

And yes, one of the new families is in the forum, but they want to do their own “reveal”.


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

I’m sad to think about this thread ending soon when the puppies go home. But I’m sure you’ll share more from Ducky, and I’m happy for the families!

I have already sent people outside of the forum to this thread. Not Havanese people, but someone I know who was considering getting a puppy from a “broker,” and someone else to show them that indoor potty training is actually training, not just laying down pads and hoping the puppies aim in the right place  It is really meaningful that you have taken the time, with all of the pressures of raising a litter, to document this. I believe it will have a really positive impact on showing prospective puppy owners what breeding should look like, long after these cute little puppies go home.

it also means a lot to me personally to have been able to follow along! Thank you, Karen!


----------



## krandall

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I’m sad to think about this thread ending soon when the puppies go home. But I’m sure you’ll share more from Ducky, and I’m happy for the families!
> 
> I have already sent people outside of the forum to this thread. Not Havanese people, but someone I know who was considering getting a puppy from a “broker,” and someone else to show them that indoor potty training is actually training, not just laying down pads and hoping the puppies aim in the right place  It is really meaningful that you have taken the time, with all of the pressures of raising a litter, to document this. I believe it will have a really positive impact on showing prospective puppy owners what breeding should look like, long after these cute little puppies go home.
> 
> it also means a lot to me personally to have been able to follow along! Thank you, Karen!


Aww, thanks! I’ll have to post something on my newest “after nap” tactic in the bigger play time pen, as it might help some people with their puppies at home. I had been having trouble with the litter being good using their boxes in the big pen except right after waking up from a nap. Pam King told me that I had left them to nap in the big peb to early, and to move them back to their sleeping pen (where they never have accidents) to nap. I did that, but I was still having trouble where, when I first moved them, two at a time, back to the big pen after a nap, sometimes one or two would miss. Now I put a piece of gate around the potty area, and the puppies get put in there one or two at a time. They don’t get let out into the play area until they “produce”! LOL! 

I also think when they all went into the bigger area at once, it was just too exciting, and they were bothering each other. Chirp, especially, likes a little privacy to do her business… impossible with four brothers jumping on you! THAT is something most of us don’t have to worry about with a single puppy, but I an SURE caused her to go off and have “accidents” in quiet corners. The boys accidents at this point are largely the “front feet in” accidents that plague so many of us with boys! LOL! Hey! At least they are close! LOL! And they are ALL close too 100% with poop!


----------



## Mikki

Do Mama Dogs grieve when their puppies leave?


----------



## krandall

Mikki said:


> Do Mama Dogs grieve when their puppies leave?


They miss them, I think, like a humom seeing her kids off to college. It is not like tearing an infant out of a mom’s arms… it’s time, and she is getting ready for some separation, but she still DOES miss them. I think it will be easier for Panda, because she gets to keep her favorite!


----------



## Mikki

LOL! ... Mama's are not supposed to have Favorites. 

Super Cute Pic of Mama and Ducky.


----------



## Molly120213

Just curious - what does Panda do that lets you know Ducky is her favorite?


----------



## LeleRF

krandall said:


> I can hardly believe that the puppies will start leaving in 9 days!!! 😭 I’m making the most of this last little bit of time with them, trying to give them the best start I can… Loving them to pieces, of course, continuing their socialization with lots of visitors, car rides, experiences like wet grass and light rain. But since I have already started Ducky’s formal training, and little puppies do best with VERY short amounts of training time at this age, and (mentally) tired puppies are good puppies, I figure they might as well ALL benefit!
> 
> PLEASE do NOT think that you breeder “should” be doing this with your puppies! MOST will not be! MOST do not have the time, nor do most have an interest in performance training. But this is what I’m doing with MY litter! What I’m doing with this puppy is also great work for any puppy when you first bring him home, assuming he HASN’T learned this with his breeder. This is this puppy’s first exposure to BOTH exercises, so they learn REALLY quickly at this age!
> 
> The puppies do understand “manding”, which I discussed earlier in this thread, and they also understand the clicker and what it means.


Ohh, Karen, my eyes welled right up reading this! 😭 Even though I’m sure it’s not been a cakewalk all the time, I’m equally sure it’s also been a wonderful and magical time as well. These pups could NOT have had a better start in life. You will always have a special and unique connection, not to mention big time bragging rights to an amazing litter!


----------



## LeleRF

krandall said:


> I am interviewing one more family tomorrow. I THINK they will be the last if all goes well.
> 
> And yes, one of the new families is in the forum, but they want to do their own “reveal”.


This is going to sound weird, but I am actually a bit jealous because I wish I could have more than one! I suppose in some ways I feel like an Auntie! They are all so darling and yummy!


----------



## ShamaMama

Molly120213 said:


> Just curious - what does Panda do that lets you know Ducky is her favorite?


We are wondering the same thing!

💚💛🧡💜💙


----------



## krandall

Molly120213 said:


> Just curious - what does Panda do that lets you know Ducky is her favorite?


The two of them seem to seek each other out. She is with him more often the
an any other puppy. Second most is Chirp. They have “girl talks!”







LOL!


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

I've been away from the forum for a few days. Oh my so much seems to have happened! I so excited to be able to watch Ducky grow up now that he is officially yours! Love all the photos you have posted. I'm going to miss all the other puppies though.


----------



## krandall

And with that... they all have homes. Peeps will be heading off to Long Island in a week. I can hardly believe that my whole litter, other than Ducky, will be gone in less than two weeks!!!

Peep's new "parents" are lovely. He loved them, and followed them around the back yard, well, like a puppy.







He played ball with them and showed off his manding skills. It seems so "real" somehow now!!!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

Awww it’s happy and sad all at the same time😊😣🤪

You’ve got some really lovely pics of them, especially recently as their individual personalities emerge🥰, let’s hope their new owners ALL become forum converts and keep you (and us😂) posted on puppy progress💗


----------



## ShamaMama

Is Peeps the one you were hoping would go to a performance family? What do they have in mind for him? Are Chase and Ducky the only two who were adopted by current forum members? Will all the puppies stay in the northeast?

💚💛🧡💜💙


----------



## krandall

ShamaMama said:


> Is Peeps the one you were hoping would go to a performance family? What do they have in mind for him? Are Chase and Ducky the only two who were adopted by current forum members? Will all the puppies stay in the northeast?
> 
> 💚💛🧡💜💙


Yes, currently, only Chase and Ducky are on the Forum, and yes, all are in the northeast.


----------



## krandall

What meets me when I come down the stairs every morning. I will miss this!!!


----------



## krandall

Panda loves being with her pups, but even SHE thinks that maybe they need to nurse less. So she “perches in places that they can’t quite get to her!


----------



## Sheri

krandall said:


> What meets me when I come down the stairs every morning. I will miss this!!!
> View attachment 174794


Oh, my! How perfectly, absolutely precious!!!


----------



## krandall

Panda saying goodbye to all her whelping box bedding! I’m not sure she wants to see it go! LOL!


----------



## krandall

How many puppies can tug on one little piece of rope?


----------



## krandall

Ducky practicing being a lap dog! ❤


----------



## krandall

And Chase just being cuter than cute!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

There are not enough words for the CUTENESS💗💗💗

Chase really does have the sweetest face😍


----------



## krandall

LeleRF said:


> This is going to sound weird, but I am actually a bit jealous because I wish I could have more than one! I suppose in some ways I feel like an Auntie! They are all so darling and yummy!


You ARE an auntie in a way! You met them earlier than almost anyone! I think you helped me with their 3 week pictures? I know they were still up n the whelping room!


----------



## Ditto's Mom

OMG! This litter cannot be any cuter. Love seeing all the pictures and videos. Thank you Karen for taking us on this journey. You have educated us in the breeding process and all the hard work and commitment that is involved.


----------



## LeleRF

Awww, poor Panda, with her whelping stuff- bittersweet shot there. As far as her little piranhas still wanting momma’s milk, can’t blame her there! Yikes! 🦈🦈🦈🦈🦈

In the video, it’s so cute how Peeps (new name yet?) stopped playing to sit pretty for you.


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

Ditto's Mom said:


> OMG! This litter cannot be any cuter. Love seeing all the pictures and videos. Thank you Karen for taking us on this journey. You have educated us in the breeding process and all the hard work and commitment that is involved.


I ditto the thanks for the journey. And also educating me that I would NEVER want to be a breeder! 😊


----------



## LeleRF

krandall said:


> You ARE an auntie in a way! You met them earlier than almost anyone! I think you helped me with their 3 week pictures? I know they were still up n the whelping room!


Ohhhh I love 💗 those pics of Chase with family! What a good boy!!!

Those pics were actually week 2! They just barely had opened their little eyes yet were already squirmy and wriggly pups. It was harder than I expected & didn’t do very well giving you good shots. 🥺, though somehow you managed to still capture wonderful pics. I’m lucky I didn’t get the boot as a prospective owner at that point! 😂


----------



## krandall

LeleRF said:


> Awww, poor Panda, with her whelping stuff- bittersweet shot there. As far as her little piranhas still wanting momma’s milk, can’t blame her there! Yikes! 🦈🦈🦈🦈🦈
> 
> In the video, it’s so cute how Peeps (new name yet?) stopped playing to sit pretty for you.


LOL! They only met him yesterday! I think it will take them a day or two to figure that out!


----------



## krandall

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> I ditto the thanks for the journey. And also educating me that I would NEVER want to be a breeder! 😊


I am SO glad I did it… I would NOT want to do it often! LOL!


----------



## Sheri

Chase is such a handsome little boy! I love his rich, black, wavy coat.


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

krandall said:


> Panda loves being with her pups, but even SHE thinks that maybe they need to nurse less. So she “perches in places that they can’t quite get to her!
> View attachment 174795


This is one of my favorite pictures of all time!


----------



## krandall

And... Peeps has a name! Interestingly, the "pet" his new parents' used for one of their daughters when she was very little was Peeps, so he may very well still be called that part of the time. But this smiley faced masterpiece will be High Jump Picasso, call name "Parker"... because she was in a Dr's office on Park Avenue when she got the call that she could have him! 💕









I have to say, I LOVE the names my families are going up with!!!


----------



## Molly120213

Perfect!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

🥰Parker, beautiful name for a beautiful pup 😍


----------



## krandall

And now... The last puppy has a name. Introducing, High Jump Tulaluna, known to her friends as Luna!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

Oh my goodness, how do you keep getting them in such great poses???😍😍😍. Right that’s it, Flo is coming to live with you and Shamama for two months each and I expect her to start vogue-ing (is that a word?) when I pick her up😂😂


----------



## krandall

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Oh my goodness, how do you keep getting them in such great poses???😍😍😍. Right that’s it, Flo is coming to live with you and Shamama for two months each and I expect her to start vogue-ing (is that a word?) when I pick her up😂😂


Honestly, I don't do a THING other than BE HERE 24/7! LOL!


----------



## krandall

It was REALLY hot here today, and the puppies were stuck in the house most of the day. They REALLY needed some "outside time" by this evening, so I set up the sprinkler, so they could go into it on one end of the pen if they wanted, but they didn't have to. They ALL tried it out. Great fun.


----------



## LeleRF

Ohhh, I love Parker’s name and both his and Luna’s registered names too! Such a fun idea to let them go run through the sprinkler. Who as a kid DIDN’T love doing that!? We’ll have to set that up for Chase similarly to what you did, just outside the pen over the summer.


----------



## krandall

Our first "big adventure" today was a trip up to meet dad, He.be, and "big dog" (Bearded Collie) Imp. I've taken the puppies for short car rides several times, just to get them used to being in the car, but this was, by far, the longest ride, about 40 minutes in each direction.

I had put two puppies in on RTK crate and three in the other. Just a few minutes before we arrived, there was some squeaking and crying from one crate, and I thought we might have reached the tolerance level for someone. When I stopped in the driveway, the "problem" became apparent... "somebody's" bully stick had fallen out of the crate, and "somebody" was pretty unhappy about THAT! LOL!

They had a lovely visit with a bunch of new dogs and except or a momentary amazement over Imp's hairy size, had a ball! Panda and **** had a lovely reunion, although He.be did not get ALL that he wanted out of the reunion! (Ricky Ricardo isn't the ONLY randy Cuban!!!)


----------



## krandall

Back home, their "going home" harnesses had arrived, so it was time to try them on. None of them seemed to mind wearing them... SOME of them took advantage and started to drag the OTHERS around by their harnesses. I pulled out the bully sticks again, and took their mind off the harnesses for a while! LOL!


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

I love the photo of He.be!! A photo of a Havanese not perfectly groomed! That's about how Willow looks all the time except for a few minutes in the morning after I comb her. I can see now that Willow is normal!


----------



## Heather's

They all look darling in their harnesses.  Such a cute picture of the back of Ducky and He.be standing side by side... Ducky standing just like Daddy!


----------



## krandall

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> I love the photo of He.be!! A photo of a Havanese not perfectly groomed! That's about how Willow looks all the time except for a few minutes in the morning after I comb her. I can see now that Willow is normal!


Panda Doesn't look much better! I don't think she'd been combed in about 3 days! LOL!


----------



## krandall

Heather's said:


> They all look darling in their harnesses.  Such a cute picture of the back of Ducky and He.be standing side by side... Ducky standing just like Daddy!


I do think they are a lot alike! 💕


----------



## LeleRF

I don’t even know where to start with all these happenings!! The new harnesses, the long car ride, the Panda/He.be reunion or their getting to meet their Daddy! 
First, they all look so dressed up with their harnesses (Parker is so funny, he is always posing perfectly for you). They are all so easy going they seem completely unfazed you them like you said.

As for their visit with He.be... sooooo sweet 🥰🥰🥰! Loved to see them all together. Thank you for sharing all the fun pics!


----------



## krandall

LeleRF said:


> I don’t even know where to start with all these happenings!! The new harnesses, the long car ride, the Panda/He.be reunion or their getting to meet their Daddy!
> First, they all look so dressed up with their harnesses (Parker is so funny, he is always posing perfectly for you). They are all so easy going they seem completely unfazed you them like you said.
> 
> As for their visit with He.be... sooooo sweet 🥰🥰🥰! Loved to see them all together. Thank you for sharing all the fun pics!


I'm REALLY glad they got to have that fun day on Tuesday, because between the heat yesterday, and an EXTREMELY frustrating day for me, spending basically ALL DAY on the phone with AKC trying to get their litter registration software to work (long story... it ended up that I needed to get to ONE PERSON, who was all to fix the problem in about 30 seconds, but it took ALL DAY to sort through OTHER people who had no idea what they were doing) The poor puppies lived like... Most litters of puppies! LOL! And _MY_ puppies aren't USED to that! 

No training, no outings, no outdoor play! The best I had to offer was to feed them on schedule, keep the pen clean, throw them one of their tunnels, and some bully sticks. Oh well, I guess we'll call that a lesson in self reliance! LOL!

So no photos from yesterday, unless you wanted to see one of me tearing my hair out! LOL!


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> because between the heat yesterday, and an EXTREMELY frustrating day for me, spending basically ALL DAY on the phone with AKC trying to get their litter registration software to work (long story... it ended up that I needed to get to ONE PERSON, who was all to fix the problem in about 30 seconds, but it took ALL DAY to sort through OTHER people who had no idea what they were doing)


This post from Karen prompted me to go through RICKY's file today and update all his information with HCSC (Havanese Club of Southern California). I suppose Karen is pretty busy today and tomorrow transferring some or all of the Easter Basket puppies to their new owners. I'm glad I took the time to clean up his file because I found some fascinating information about him, some information that was outdated and needed to be thrown out, and most important his microchip info was incorrect!

RICKY's AKC registered name is - Tigerlily's Welcome to the Jungle
RICKY has an official AKC Litter Certificate. Be aware that the breeder registers the litter. Either the breeder or the owner has to register the individual puppy. In RICKY's case the breeder, Tigerlily Havanese, registered him so his registration number is his litter registration number plus "- 01"
His litter certificate goes back three generations. I do not want to print it here for security reasons. I can tell you his Dam was acquired by Tigerlily from Amor Havanese in California. The litter's Sire is from Angelheart Havanese in Missouri. Both are high quality breeders. In fact RICKY has some illustrious ancestors from some impressive breeders, many from California. His ancestors are from Los Feliz, 2 from PrairieWind, 3 from PillowTalk, 2 from Amor, Los Perritos, Kolmar, Salem, and Starkette - all highly reputable breeders but some no longer is business.
I have copies of OFA and other health certificates for both his parent.
Here are his weight records that I have:
weight at birth, no record
4 wks. = 3.0
8 wks = 4.2
11wks = 5.7
36 wks = 9.2
39 wks = 11.6 (this is when we acquired him and our Vet felt he was a bit underweight)
14 mo. = 12.2
today, 7+ y.o. old about 15.5

I thought RICKY was registered with Home Again microchip. I called them to see if our information was up to date. Even though I had his chip number, they said they had no record of him! WHATTTTTTTTT?! 🤬 They said to keep his records active I had to pay a $22 annual renewal fee! WHATTTTTTTTT?! 🤬 This is something his previous owner had 'forgotten' to tell me. Although RICKY has a functioning chip, there has been no record of him for the last 7 years! Well, I got him registered and all is well. This is just a reminder that it is each owner's responsibility to maintain their dog's microchip.
Seven years ago, RICKY was sold to me without a contract. I was an idiot then and still I am! But I know better now. Anyone purchasing a Havanese puppy should demand a written contract and a copy of the AKC Registration Certificate.


----------



## krandall

DogFather said:


> This post from Karen prompted me to go through RICKY's file today and update all his information with HCSC (Havanese Club of Southern California). I suppose Karen is pretty busy today and tomorrow transferring some or all of the Easter Basket puppies to their new owners. I'm glad I took the time to clean up his file because I found some fascinating information about him, some information that was outdated and needed to be thrown out, and most important his microchip info was incorrect!
> 
> RICKY's AKC registered name is - Tigerlily's Welcome to the Jungle
> RICKY has an official AKC Litter Certificate. Be aware that the breeder registers the litter. Either the breeder or the owner has to register the individual puppy. In RICKY's case the breeder, Tigerlily Havanese, registered him so his registration number is his litter registration number plus "- 01"


His number would have been the same, whether the breeder or the buyer registered him. If the buyer registers the puppy, the paperwork still is given to the buyer with the litter registration number with the puppy number after it on it. The breeder and buyer then each fill out their respective parts, and the breeder has the buyer pay for the registration and send it in.



DogFather said:


> His litter certificate goes back three generations.
> 
> 
> I do not want to print it here for security reasons. I can tell you his Dam was acquired by Tigerlily from Amor Havanese in California. The litter's Sire is from Angelheart Havanese in Missouri. Both are high quality breeders. In fact RICKY has some illustrious ancestors from some impressive breeders, many from California. His ancestors are from Los Feliz, 2 from PrairieWind, 3 from PillowTalk, 2 from Amor, Los Perritos, Kolmar, Salem, and Starkette - all highly reputable breeders but some no longer is business.
> I have copies of OFA and other health certificates for both his parent.
> Here are his weight records that I have:


Your Pedigree certificate is not the litter registration. That is something extra that anyone can pay for from AKC, and should not be expected from your breeder. They are expensive. If A breeder Provides a printed pedigree, it’s nice. But you should NOT expect it. You can order one for yourself at any time from AKC, or you can orint one off for yourself from Havanese Gallery in most cases. This is NOT something you should expect from the breeder. Nor is a litter registration anything that is something that is useful in the hands of the puppy owners. It is only useful to the breeder. I’m not sure why you would want it. 



DogFather said:


> I thought RICKY was registered with Home Again microchip. I called them to see if our information was up to date. Even though I had his chip number, they said they had no record of him! WHATTTTTTTTT?! 🤬 They said to keep his records active I had to pay a $22 annual renewal fee! WHATTTTTTTTT?! 🤬 This is something his previous owner had 'forgotten' to tell me. Although RICKY has a functioning chip, there has been no record of him for the last 7 years! Well, I got him registered and all is well. This is just a reminder that it is each owner's responsibility to maintain their dog's microchip.


Super that you looked into this! There are a lot of different chip companies, and they are NOT all the same! I prefer AKC ReUnite, which charges a SINGLE, one time (not annual) fee for their chip program. So it is not something that you have to keep remembering to renew every year! And then make sure , at least once a year, that your dog’s chip can actually be found and is still readable!



DogFather said:


> Seven years ago, RICKY was sold to me without a contract. I was an idiot then and still I am! But I know better now. Anyone purchasing a Havanese puppy should demand a written contract and a copy of the AKC Litter Certificate.


I absolutely agree with you that ANYONE buying a puppy should expect a written contract and an AKC registration ceritificate for that individual animal. But not the litter certificate. A puppy buyer has no right to the litter certificate. IF they are fiven a copy, it is only as a courtesy. And it is NOT the same as a pedigree, which is something else, and can be purchased separately from AKC at any time.


----------



## JaJa

krandall said:


> His number would have been the same, whether the breeder or the buyer registered him. If the buyer registers the puppy, the paperwork still is given to the buyer with the litter registration number with the puppy number after it on it. The breeder and buyer then each fill out their respective parts, and the breeder has the buyer pay for the registration and send it in.
> 
> 
> 
> Your Pedigree certificate is not the litter registration. That is something extra that anyone can pay for from AKC, and should not be expected from your breeder. They are expensive. If A breeder Provides a printed pedigree, it’s nice. But you should NOT expect it. You can order one for yourself at any time from AKC, or you can orint one off for yourself from Havanese Gallery in most cases. This is NOT something you should expect from the breeder. Nor is a litter registration anything that is something that is useful in the hands of the puppy owners. It is only useful to the breeder. I’m not sure why you would want it.
> 
> 
> 
> Super that you looked into this! There are a lot of different chip companies, and they are NOT all the same! I prefer AKC ReUnite, which charges a SINGLE, one time (not annual) fee for their chip program. So it is not something that you have to keep remembering to renew every year! And then make sure , at least once a year, that your dog’s chip can actually be found and is still readable!
> 
> 
> 
> I absolutely agree with you that ANYONE buying a puppy should expect a written contract and an AKC registration ceritificate for that individual animal. But not the litter certificate. A puppy buyer has no right to the litter certificate. IF they are fiven a copy, it is only as a courtesy. And it is NOT the same as a pedigree, which is something else, and can be purchased separately from AKC at any time.


----------



## JaJa

Thank you Karen, that cleared many things up for me. Cotton and Jodie are also registered with AKC ReUnite. Every time I check things are in order. I am really enjoying your posts and pictures, it's a happy distraction from my current condition. Jodie and Cotton need a little help keeping me entertained😋


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> Your Pedigree certificate is not the litter registration. That is something extra that anyone can pay for from AKC, and should not be expected from your breeder. They are expensive. If A breeder Provides a printed pedigree, it’s nice. But you should NOT expect it. You can order one for yourself at any time from AKC, or you can orint one off for yourself from Havanese Gallery in most cases. This is NOT something you should expect from the breeder. Nor is a litter registration anything that is something that is useful in the hands of the puppy owners. It is only useful to the breeder. I’m not sure why you would want it.


Karen, I am confused (what's new?) I have a copy of a paper with American Kennel Club logo at the top. It says "Litter Certificate" at the top in bold letters. It has the AKC Litter Number in print and then "-01" hand written after it, which is RICKY's AKC registration number. And then RICKY's pedigree back three generations is listed. The date it was recorded is Feb. 7, 2014. I guess I don't understand what I am looking at. I'm going to send you a copy via email and maybe you will have time to look at it sometime in the next week or two.



> Super that you looked into this! There are a lot of different chip companies, and they are NOT all the same! I prefer AKC ReUnite, which charges a SINGLE, one time (not annual) fee for their chip program. So it is not something that you have to keep remembering to renew every year! And then make sure , at least once a year, that your dog’s chip can actually be found and is still readable!


Another question! Are the chips universal, or proprietary to each company? Can I register his chip ID code with a different company?


----------



## 31818

DogFather said:


> Another question! Are the chips universal, or proprietary to each company? Can I register his chip ID code with a different company?


Okay! I was able to determine that a chip ID code is universal. Once the code is issued, you can register with any provider as well as change providers. I bailed on Home Again provider and their annual $22/yr. service fee. I re-registered Ricky with AKC Re-Unite system. Their program is much more thorough and detailed than Home Again. Re-Unite has a lifetime one time fee of $19.50. I opted for their optional lost pet alert and upgraded collar hang tag. Total cost was $36 one time fee.

Ricky gives more besos to Tia Karen. Once again she comes through with the right stuff! Thank you Karen


----------



## LeleRF

DogFather said:


> Okay! I was able to determine that a chip ID code is universal. Once the code is issued, you can register with any provider as well as change providers. I bailed on Home Again provider and their annual $22/yr. service fee. I re-registered Ricky with AKC Re-Unite system. Their program is much more thorough and detailed than Home Again. Re-Unite has a lifetime one time fee of $19.50. I opted for their optional lost pet alert and upgraded collar hang tag. Total cost was $36 one time fee.
> 
> Ricky gives more besos to Tia Karen. Once again she comes through with the right stuff! Thank you Karen


That’s great! 👍 Also, your question was helpful for others, at least for me as I wasn’t aware of any of this. I feel like there’s been some decent education on microchipping between you & Karen in the past few weeks.

Karen had posted on microchipping the pups and to have the chips checked to make sure it “took” because they can fall out. Then have it checked at least 1x/yr and make sure it’s readable. If the question ever comes up for any reason, it IS possible to register with a different provider.


----------



## krandall

DogFather said:


> Karen, I am confused (what's new?) I have a copy of a paper with American Kennel Club logo at the top. It says "Litter Certificate" at the top in bold letters. It has the AKC Litter Number in print and then "-01" hand written after it, which is RICKY's AKC registration number. And then RICKY's pedigree back three generations is listed. The date it was recorded is Feb. 7, 2014. I guess I don't understand what I am looking at. I'm going to send you a copy via email and maybe you will have time to look at it sometime in the next week or two.


I'd be happy to look at it, and it's possible that they give you a copy of the litter registration. But they didn't HAVE to, and it is of no use to you, nor should people expect it. This is what a :titer registration looks like now. It probably looked different when Ricky's litter was registered, because my guess is that they were not yet done on line at that point. They HIGHY encourage EVERYTHING be done on line now, by making it cheaper to do it that way:










Again, it is very nice that Tiger Lily paid for a copy of the pedigree and passed it on to the puppy owners. I chose to spend my money in different ways for my puppy owners... On things that I think will be important to them in daily life when they first get home with their puppies. I gave them copies of both Panda's and He.be's pedigrees, which are hand printed, so not as "pretty", but are 5 generations deep, but also highlight crossing points, because they were done by He.be's breeder when we were planning the litter. I suspect that few puppy owners will really have much interest in these, and even less ability to understand the meaning of them. Since none of these puppies except Ducky will ever reproduce, it really doesn't make any difference to any of them. And again, the information is always available for free on most dogs with a bit of searching on Havanese Gallery.



DogFather said:


> Another question! Are the chips universal, or proprietary to each company? Can I register his chip ID code with a different company?


You have to be careful about that, though it's less an issue than it used to be. In the early days of chips and readers, there used to be a lot of proprietary chips, readers and companies. I THINK that MOST are now using the "universal" system, and can be read by the "universal" reader. Hopefully Sophie, who works in a vet's office, is reading this, and can comment on how often they come across a chip than they can't read because it is not a "universal chip, in a "not ancient" dog. There STIll are companies like "Home again that would LOVE to suck you into yearly plans. Go with AKC ReUnite, pay a single fee and keep your records up to date. (THAT part is important!!!) and you won't have a problem. Having to remember to pay a yearly fee, and HOPE that they will remind you too pay it, and HOPE that the company will still be around in 14 or so years? That I worry about. I may have gripes about AKC, but I do not doubt that they will be here for the life of my dog!


----------



## Cassandra

Re the discussion of keeping microchips up to date, my breeder requires in our contract that we include their name and phone number as an alternative contact on microchip record. I like it because if I and immediate family are incapacitated, i.e. a car accident kind of situation, the breeder will also be contacted. Many breeders also require their permission to rehome a puppy or return of the puppy, so it makes sense to have them also on the microchip.


----------



## krandall

Cassandra said:


> Re the discussion of keeping microchips up to date, my breeder requires in our contract that we include their name and phone number as an alternative contact on microchip record. I like it because if I and immediate family are incapacitated, i.e. a car accident kind of situation, the breeder will also be contacted. Many breeders also require their permission to rehome a puppy or return of the puppy, so it makes sense to have them also on the microchip.


Yes. That is excellent advice. That information is on file with AKC ReUnite automatically, which is why I want my puppy buyers to use that service specifically. It is in my contract that they must update ME with any change of contact information. HOPEFULLY they would also contact AKC, but I think it's more likely that they will remember to contact me, and since, if AKC can't find THEM, the next person they will try is me, I will hopefully be able to. get the dog back to them. If not, at least _I_ can make sure the dog is safe!


----------



## krandall

And so we reach the beginning of the end…

This was the last time I came downstairs to see this in the morning…. And it was actually only AFTER I brought Ducky down and let the others out of their crates. They are all “big kids” now… sleeping in individual crates at night! And this was the last time I would see five faces!










Then it was time to gather all Parker’s “stuff” together for his trip to his new home… 










His new family arrived early, because they had a long ride back home, but they were SO happy to see him, and get him all snuggled into his new carrier in their car. I took a few photos in the driveway before they headed off, of course! They have emailed me, and say he is settling in nicely! (He WAS all clean and fluffy, but he ran around in the wet grass just before leaving! LOL!)


----------



## JaJa

Noooooo, say it isn't so☹😢 That went by way too fast❣Although it might not have seemed that way from your perspective😋 It's been a delightful journey Karen, thanks for including everyone.


----------



## krandall

JaJa said:


> Noooooo, say it isn't so☹😢 That went by way too fast❣Although it might not have seemed that way from your perspective😋 It's been a delightful journey Karen, thanks for including everyone.


In some ways it has seemed like they have always been a part of my life, and in some ways it has seemed like the blink of an eye!


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> Then it was time to gather all Parker’s “stuff” together for his trip to his new home…


Sniff...😢


----------



## Lalla

krandall said:


> One of the things we did as part of Puppy Culture training was several "barrier challenges" where the puppies had to figure out how to get around progressively more complicated series of gates to get to their food. (which they could see). Well, THAT worked well. Be careful what you teach a puppy...
> View attachment 174716
> 
> 
> View attachment 174717
> 
> 
> View attachment 174718
> 
> 
> Who EVER thought it was a good idea to teach puppies to think for themselves!?!?


----------



## Lalla

I love these photos, Karen! Specially the last one; thinking is a minefield!!!


----------



## Lalla

Parting is such sweet sorrow? Mmmm. I suppose it is, but oh, it’s sorrowful. I’m not sure I’d ever have the strength, which is probably why I’d never manage to be a breeder…


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

krandall said:


> And so we reach the beginning of the end…
> 
> This was the last time I came downstairs to see this in the morning…. And it was actually only AFTER I brought Ducky down and let the others out of their crates. They are all “big kids” now… sleeping in individual crates at night! And this was the last time I would see five faces!


I can’t imagine. Just seeing those sweet puppies and how happy they are to see you in videos is so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that love with the families they are going home with, and for sharing the experience with us. It breaks my heart that there are people who don’t get to have a puppy raised this way and they don’t even know what they’ve missed. I will never forget this! It’s not just a “story” I’ve followed on a forum, it has been really touching to be able to watch your relationship with Panda and your family, watch the puppies grow, and now see them go to their homes.


----------



## JaJa

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I can’t imagine. Just seeing those sweet puppies and how happy they are to see you in videos is so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that love with the families they are going home with, and for sharing the experience with us. It breaks my heart that there are people who don’t get to have a puppy raised this way and they don’t even know what they’ve missed. I will never forget this! It’s not just a “story” I’ve followed on a forum, it has been really touching to be able to watch your relationship with Panda and your family, watch the puppies grow, and now see them go to their homes.


As always, beautifully stated EvaE1izabeth 💜


----------



## LeleRF

krandall said:


> And so we reach the beginning of the end…
> 
> This was the last time I came downstairs to see this in the morning…. And it was actually only AFTER I brought Ducky down and let the others out of their crates. They are all “big kids” now… sleeping in individual crates at night! And this was the last time I would see five faces!


🥺😢😩😭😭😭😭😭😭

Gosh, that pic got me right here ❤! Agreed that it has been a privilege getting to be a part of this process and journey.


----------



## Sheri

I've been thinking of you, Karen, with a tug of my heart, knowing that this was THE week the puppies would be heading to their new homes. It is good to remember that you'll still have your hands full and busy times ahead with Ducky. 🤗

This experience has been such a treat to be able to ride along on, thank you for sharing in such detail. These families are blessed to be getting one of your puppies.


----------



## krandall

DogFather said:


> Sniff...😢


❤ ❤ ❤


----------



## krandall

Lalla said:


> I love these photos, Karen! Specially the last one; thinking is a minefield!!!


These puppies are SO much fun!!! Because, of course, I have wanted to train Ducky because he is staying, I have ALSO continued to work with the others far beyond what most puppies go home with. All are well started on sits and downs, and hand touches. Luna, who is the fast study in the group, already has the down on a hand cue!


----------



## krandall

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I can’t imagine. Just seeing those sweet puppies and how happy they are to see you in videos is so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that love with the families they are going home with, and for sharing the experience with us. It breaks my heart that there are people who don’t get to have a puppy raised this way and they don’t even know what they’ve missed. I will never forget this! It’s not just a “story” I’ve followed on a forum, it has been really touching to be able to watch your relationship with Panda and your family, watch the puppies grow, and now see them go to their homes.


Thank you! I hope that for people who come along in the future and read through it, it will help them realize the tremendous amount of work that their breeders put into raising their puppies for them, and how things can go wrong. (Though not ALL have the rocky start the I had with this litter! LOL!). And what I REALLY hope is that although there is certainly a really wide range of acceptable in raising good quality puppies, and a breeder doesn’t need to do EVERYTHING I did to produce lovely puppies (and I will admit right now that Pam and Tom have me beat all hollow when it comes to early litter box training… it is only this week that we are FINALLY getting to the point that we are keeping the BIG pen dry all day! YAY!!!) It gives an IDEA of the range of things a good breeder does.

If a breeder is keeping a litter in a 4x4 ex-pen (or even twice that!) with a few toys, and the bottom lined with potty pads, and that is how they spend all their time, they are simply NOT going to have the brain development that puppies raised like these, or like the Kings, or like those of other Puppy Culture breeders do. as I’ve explained before, the Kings do not follow Puppy Culture specifically, because they have been doing this for longer than her program existed. But they STILL do “all the stuff”. You read the Puppy Culture program, and there is really nothing missing from the King’s program, they just don’t call it that, because they developed it themselves. And they do and developed!) some extra things (like the litter box training and soaping for structure) that are not part of PC! Not really any need to “soap” dogs like Bull Terriers that basically have almost no hair! LOL! 

You also can’t tell the quality of a breeder’s program by looking at a website. A number of in-depth phone conversations might help if YOU know enough to ascertain the difference. But I know a couple of Havanese breeders here in N.E. Who pay lip service to PC, and do next to NO socialization. They seem to think that “loving their puppies to death” (and, in fairness, I think they do… they are just short sighted, IMO) is going to be enough. They don’t let their puppies go until 12 weeks, and then think the new owners will be able to do the rest of their socialization. I have seen the results of this program, because these puppies often show up in the puppy K at our training center. They are VERY shy. With people and especially around other dogs. They get better, but they remain shy adults. They families still love them, and just think that is how a Havanese is. But it’s NOT how a Havanese should be!

So I would suggest, if at all possible, to visit any breeder you are considering and SEE how they raise their puppies. Don’t grill them; that’s not polite. But ask interested questions. Learn about their methods. A breeder who is deeply involved in raising her litters will welcome this kind of interest. This is NOT a visit where you bring your whole family, and have the kids running around, which the breeder has to worry about with her puppies. If you are serious about buying a puppy, and the breeder has a puppy for you, she will most likely INSIST on meeting the whole family if there are young children involved, and seeing them interact with the puppies. While I did buy two of my puppies at distance, I ALSO paid the expense of flying down an extra time to meet the breeder, meet the puppies and make sure that I was comfortable with the situation before bringing a puppy home. Yes, it adds to the expense, but if you live in an area where Havanese breeders are scarce, I think it is well worth while.

This may not be necessary if you have a breeder with sterling references, and you can get to know them well first on Zoom or something. Even then, I would go with steel in my heart, prepered to walk away from a deal if the puppy was not the right puppy for me. It is THAT important! The people who bought Peeps were so excited that they just wanted to drive up and get him. Yes, because of where they live, and traffic flow, it is a 3 hour trip in one direction and up to 5 hours going home. I still convinced them to come up the first weekend and meet him, meet me and talk. Then they could come up the NEXT weekend to get him. I think it was a better experience for them, (and CERTAINLY for me!) getting to know each other better this way!


----------



## krandall

A little note on Panda… So far, she seems to be handling it pretty well. She wants more cuddle time with me than usual, and is, if anything, being a little more stern and protective with the others. She certainly knows Parker is gone, but she saw him go out the door… I made sure of that, and she has not looked for him or anything like that.


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

Karen it has been an absolute privilege to share this special time with you, Panda, and the puppies - thank you so much for sharing it with us🥰. You and the dogs have all been amazing and it shows not only the importance of the right breeder from a nurturing perspective but also how breeding from the right parents is so important too🐶🐶. 

A sad few days on the horizon as they make their way in the world…thank goodness for Ducky and Chase! Xx


----------



## krandall

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Karen it has been an absolute privilege to share this special time with you, Panda, and the puppies - thank you so much for sharing it with us🥰. You and the dogs have all been amazing and it shows not only the importance of the right breeder from a nurturing perspective but also how breeding from the right parents is so important too🐶🐶.
> 
> A sad few days on the horizon as they make their way in the world…thank goodness for Ducky and Chase! Xx


Please know that even though the other two families aren’t on the forum, they are WONDERFUL people, and I have no doubt they will remain in touch regularly. I’ll forward news as I get it. One of the new moms is a Cuban imigrant who came to this countey as a 5 year old and writes regularly about Cuban/American issues. Her work is very interesting! If anyone is interested in looking her up, her website is:Ana Hebra Flaster. If you google her (Ana Flaster) you will find LOTS of hits for recent articles in such notable publications as the Washington Post and Psychology Today.

One of the side “pleasures” of this litter has been the FANTASTIC people I’ve met as a result of them!!!


----------



## 31818

krandall said:


> Because, of course, I have wanted to train Ducky because he is staying,


I want to comment on Ducky. These are just my opinions. Hopefully Karen will chime in if I don't get it quite right.

Karen chose Ducky from the Easter Basket litter, not because he is "best" but because he is the one who will further Karen's goals and objectives for her breeding program. Each one of the Easter Basket litter is special and best in their own way and families were selected carefully by Karen to achieve those family's goals and objectives.

Ducky is not guaranteed to be a "winner" in conformation competition. So many things can go wrong! Ricky was the "chosen one" in his litter of three females and two males.by his breeder (Tigerlily) to achieve her goals and objectives. Ricky's AKC registration is the litter number plus "-01" designation indicating his breeder had chosen him as #1 at just 17 days old. Ricky was sold to another breeder as a "co-owner" at 11 weeks. Although I have no idea what that agreement was, I think it means that Tigerlily retained all rights to any AKC conformation championships Ricky might win. The second owner would use him in her breeding program and show him in conformation competition. As a puppy, Ricky was tearing up the West Coast conformation competition with one win after another in every show he competed. (I was given about 6 of his ribbons when I acquired him). However, trouble was brewing! Ricky developed a physical problem, which I think was caused by stress in conformation competition. At around 9 months he was banned by AKC in conformation because of this physical condition (Cryptorchidism). Ricky just didn't like conformation competition or maybe he was not trained properly for that kind of competition, I don't know. Both his first and second owners could not use him in their breeding programs and he became a castoff. Anyway, it was my GREAT fortune that Ricky was sold to me at 9+ months with an AKC 'limited' registration, which means I had to have him neutered and he would never be allowed in AKC conformation competition again. Ricky has never fathered any puppies or will he ever. However we could compete in AKC obedience, rally, agility competitions - which he did. He has had success in obedience which he really enjoys. After watching the Westminster Agility competitions over the weekend, I kick myself for not training us in agility 6 years ago. I think Ricky would have excelled in that discipline/competition as well. We call him, "RICKY the ROCKET." You see, Ricky's temperament is geared for active sports rather than something relatively passive like conformation. And I hit the jackpot for our family's goals and objectives as his third owner!

To my point, Karen is "rolling the dice" with Ducky in conformation competition (and maybe obedience too). I suspect Ducky will be entering his first conformation competition in a month or two. But nothing is guaranteed with a puppy as they mature into adulthood with adult teeth, adult coat, adult bone structure, and their temperament can change dramatically too. This is just another "cost" in a breeding program. You just never know the gender makeup of the litter in advance, you never know what the individual temperament of the puppies will be, and you never know exactly how the adults will mature to adulthood. Yes, you can make some educated guesses through education and research BUT there are no guarantees. 

I will be rooting for Ducky and the rest of the Easter Basket litter as they achieve their destinies.


----------



## Cassandra

I loved all of the puppies! Thank you so much for sharing this incredible journey with us. The picture of them greeting you every morning with their bright happy faces and tails wagging so hard will last for a long, long time.

just to check my memory, Peeps became Parker, Cadbury became Chase, Chirp became Luna, Ducky stays ducky along with a long formal name, did you mention what flashy boy Jellybean will become. Yes, Jellybean with his good looks was a favorite, but so was Cadbury with his plump little belly, along with that independent little girl Chirp. And of course, Peeps had that beautiful expression of wonder in his pictures. So happy we will be able to continue to follow that loveable Ducky as he grows up!


----------



## ShamaMama

ShamaPapa and I cannot believe that it's already time for the puppies to go to their forever homes. Thank you for this thread, Karen. It has enriched all of our lives, and it has the potential to be incredibly useful to so many people - and dogs! - in the future.

💙💚💛🧡💜


----------



## krandall

DogFather said:


> I want to comment on Ducky. These are just my opinions. Hopefully Karen will chime in if I don't get it quite right.
> 
> Karen chose Ducky from the Easter Basket litter, not because he is "best" but because he is the one who will further Karen's goals and objectives for her breeding program. Each one of the Easter Basket litter is special and best in their own way and families were selected carefully by Karen to achieve those family's goals and objectives.
> 
> Ducky is not guaranteed to be a "winner" in conformation competition. So many things can go wrong!


I’ll do my best to explain the misunderstandings in this post, because there are a few. The GIST is right. 

There are NO guarantees, with any puppy out of any litter. I did NOT choose Ducky because of any grand scheme for a breeding program. I have had ONE litter. I MAY have another litter at some completely undesignated time in the future. (and just as I was telling the truth all the times when I said I had NOT picked a puppy or a favorite, when people asked earlier, it is ALSO true that I have NO PLANS for an other litter at this time) Ducky may or may not figure into any future litter. I chose Ducky as my best option out of the litter for ME as a combination “Bred-by” conformation show dog and performance dog. This was not a business decision. This was to add another “dance partner” to my family.

The biggest reason I narrowed it down to one puppy is that I felt that it was best for ALL the puppies for me to only choose ONE. NOW. I had originally only taken deposits on three puppies, leaving two that I could make decisions on later. obviously I couldn’t keep all the puppies, even if they were all perfect. And NO dog is perfect. Balancing all the positives and negatives of the various puppies, I DID refine my choice to two in the end. Some people suggested that I “run on” both puppies, something that is commonly done in the show/breeding world, to let the puppies mature physically and see which one is going to be the better dog. I could have done that. But when I thought about it, after putting this much work into the minds and emotional well-being of these little beings, I couldn’t do that to them. They need to be with their families, developing into the best little dog people they can be. _MY_ ambition might be to see some of them be show or performance dogs. Not ONE of them has that ambition. THEY want to be loved and cherished by their families and cared for well for the rest of their lives! So, in the end, I decided that it was In the best interest of ALL the puppies to take my best educated guess, taking into account not only my own experience and knowledge, but also the advice of a number of other experienced breeders, trainers and veterinarians. Because of the quality group of people I have surrounded myself with; two experienced top level trainers (one an AKC Utility level judge) an AKC conformation judge, 4 Havanese breeders (one of whom helped write our standard) and two veterinarians (some of these people wear more than one hat, BTW) all agreed with me that Ducky was the pick puppy. So the choice was not made on a whim. Nor was it based on color (at all) or JUST because I liked him best temperament-wise, though that DID factor in heavily . There was one other puppy who was close in conformation, though not quite as good at this time, and there was another that had really tugged at my heartstrings in terms of temperament… and NEITHER was the girl that I REALLY was hoping for! 



DogFather said:


> Ricky was the "chosen one" in his litter of three females and two males.by his breeder (Tigerlily) to achieve her goals and objectives. Ricky's AKC registration is the litter number plus "-01" designation indicating his breeder had chosen him as #1 at just 17 days old.


That probably has nothing to do with it. Typically, the numbers given to puppies designate birth order. My litter is different, because it was an emergency C-section, after hours during Covid, and I was not given that information. …Though now that I’m thinking about it, I DO know that Cadbury/Chase was the roadblock, so I suppose I SHOULD have given HIM the 01 designation. But I STILL don’t know whether he was removed from Panda’s uterus first, and I still would have had no idea what the order of the other were! In any case, I assigned registration numbers in the order in which I registered them. 🤷‍♀️ Nothing with any more meaning than that! LOL!

I hate to disillusion you, but NO ONE can tell enough about a puppy at 17 days to make any reasonable guesses about how they might turn out. You can tell something about head shape at that point and at birth, a little about joint angle. (that is harder by 17 days, when they have gotten fatter) But they change SO MUCH. Ducky looked like he was going to have a short neck in the beginning… I was joking about hanging him up by his neck in the closet overnight! And he has a nice neck now. (And NO, we DIDN’T hang him up in the closet! LOL!)



DogFather said:


> Ricky was sold to another breeder as a "co-owner" at 11 weeks. Although I have no idea what that agreement was, I think it means that Tigerlily retained all rights to any AKC conformation championships Ricky might win. The second owner would use him in her breeding program and show him in conformation competition.


Typically, a co-ownership is used when a puppy is sold for breeding by a reputable breeder. They sell the puppy but retain co-ownership until … something. Typically, that is until the new owner has “finished“ the dog (obtained at least its championship) and sometimes also includes a puppy back. At that time, often the agreement is written so that the breeder signs off on the dog, and it belongs complete to the new owner. If something happens along the way, as happened with Ricky, so that the dog cannot be finished, there would be a provision written into the contract to deal with that. These contracts can be complicated. 



DogFather said:


> Anyway, it was my GREAT fortune that Ricky was sold to me at 9+ months with an AKC 'limited' registration, which means I had to have him neutered and he would never be allowed in AKC conformation competition again.
> Ricky has never fathered any puppies or will he ever. However we could compete in AKC obedience, rally, agility competitions - which he did. He has had success in obedience which he really enjoys.


A limited registration does NOT require that a dog be neutered. It ONLY means that no offspring of the dog can be registered. A dog with a limited registration can remain intact for its entire life. It can also be shown in conformation… as long as it has not been spayed or neutered. You just can’t breed it. (Well, you COULD, but you couldn’t register the puppies)



DogFather said:


> After watching the Westminster Agility competitions over the weekend, I kick myself for not training us in agility 6 years ago. I think Ricky would have excelled in that discipline/competition as well. We call him, "RICKY the ROCKET." You see, Ricky's temperament is geared for active sports rather than something relatively passive like conformation. And I hit the jackpot for our family's goals and objectives as his third owner!


If I were the kind of person to say “I told you so”… 



DogFather said:


> To my point, Karen is "rolling the dice" with Ducky in conformation competition (and maybe obedience too). I suspect Ducky will be entering his first conformation competition in a month or two.


I would not call it rolling the dice. i would call it an educated guess based on a carefully planned breeding. An AWFUL lot of work went into every single part of this to consider it a roll of the dice. Every part was considered very deliberately. Does that mean there is not DTILL some luck involved? Of course not. But I like to think the odds are a lot better than rolling the dice. That’s what puppy mills do. 

Dogs cannot start formal obedience competition until they are 6 months old. So Ducky has a way to go. (There are informal 4-6 month classes, but I have mixed feelings about them… I would have to see how he felt about big crowded places before asking him to work in such an environment. My gut feeling is that I will not) I also have no intention of rushing him. There is no need. I have seen with Panda that a well trained, mature dog is easy to finish. I want him to feel confident in the ring. So we’ll see how HE feels about it. He SEEMS pretty darned confident, but he is a 10 week old puppy, and I won’t push him through fear periods. And he has SO much to learn. 

It is pretty unusual to start showing a dog in obdedience much before 2 years. They just aren’t polished enough before then. You might get a “Q” before then, but you ar, hopefully building a competition career, not just collecting Q’s. Rally is less demanding, and he might be doing some of that before he is two. If _I_ am up to doing agility, that training doesn’t seriously start until they are a year old, so again, typically they don’t start competing until they are close to two years old. 



DogFather said:


> But nothing is guaranteed with a puppy as they mature into adulthood with adult teeth, adult coat, adult bone structure, and their temperament can change dramatically too. This is just another "cost" in a breeding program. You just never know the gender makeup of the litter in advance, you never know what the individual temperament of the puppies will be, and you never know exactly how the adults will mature to adulthood. Yes, you can make some educated guesses through education and research BUT there are no guarantees.
> 
> I will be rooting for Ducky and the rest of the Easter Basket litter as they achieve their destinies.


True. The Dogfather is right that things can go “wrong” with any puppy. God forbid, any one of our dogs, yes, even any one of the puppies, could drop dead of an aneurysm tomorrow. It’s rare, of course, but it DOES happen. But you can stack the deck in your favor, of a healthy, well conformed dog, and raise it in a way that is most likely to produce the most stable, biddable, operant, “thinking” temperament possible. And that’s what the best breeders do. It ABSOLUTELY is both NATURE and nurture that go into raising solid puppies. That’s what this whole thread has been about.

I am really pleased with this litter. I think that three of them would have the potential to be finished as show dogs. Even the ones that probably should not be show dogs have beautiful straight legs and good “functional” conformation... Likewise, although there are differences in their dispositions, there is not one of them that is shy nor sharp tempered. There is one, (the girl, who is exceptionally quick at picking up new skills, and there is one (Boo) who is a bit demanding. There is one (Chase) who is UNBELIEVABLY sweet and cuddly. Ducky and Peeps are similar in that both are “thinkers”. Not the quickest to respond necessarily, but they think things through and figure them out on their own. All five are smart and learn quickly. I KNOW that ALL of them have temperaments that would lend them to be good performance dogs if their families chose to “do stuff” with them. I HOPE that some of them do. I don’t know of another breeder who is offering a monetary rebate to any puppy buyer who puts a CGC title on their puppy as I have. That’s how strongly I feel about “doing stuff” with you puppy! But MOST of all, I want what Tom King wants… I want them all to be “Best In Home” dogs!❤


----------



## krandall

Cassandra said:


> I loved all of the puppies! Thank you so much for sharing this incredible journey with us. The picture of them greeting you every morning with their bright happy faces and tails wagging so hard will last for a long, long time.
> 
> just to check my memory, Peeps became Parker, Cadbury became Chase, Chirp became Luna, Ducky stays ducky along with a long formal name, did you mention what flashy boy Bellybean will become. Yes, Jellybean with his good looks was a favorite, but so was Cadbury with his plump little belly, along with that independent little girl Chirp. And of course, Peeps had that beautiful expression of wonder in his pictures. So happy we will be able to continue to follow that loveable Ducky as he grows up!


Yes, you got them right! Jelly Bean is Boo Radley.

Boo went home today. Here he is, saying goodbye to his littermates…










And look at what we found on the bottom of his foot, when we clipped him up after his bath before he went home?!?! Is that cute or what?!?!


----------



## LeleRF

krandall said:


> A little note on Panda… So far, she seems to be handling it pretty well. She wants more cuddle time with me than usual, and is, if anything, being a little more stern and protective with the others. She certainly knows Parker is gone, but she saw him go out the door… I made sure of that, and she has not looked for him or anything like that.


Thank you for posting this. I’ve been thinking of Panda, and how she’d handle the separations. 😔 

I have been telling myself very soon she’ll be bestowing ALL her love and attention to little Ducky and me/my family, along with all the other families on our own respective beautiful little pups. We’re SO very excited (Popi was right! Every day feels like 20!), but yes these days are tough too & my heart goes out to the the Mamas, Panda & Karen.


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

Oh my goodness Boo’s paw💗💗💗💗💗 just when you think it can’t get any cuter there is this🐾🥰

Thank goodness cuddly little Chase will ‘only’ have plain old black paws like Flo…as I think THAT would tip me over the edge into cute insanity🥰🥰


----------



## MosesMom

It's funny the people you find while browsing a breed specific forum for grooming questions that bother you in the early morning hours. 

Uncle Moses says Hello  Super cute pups

-Devon (Moses's new mom)


----------



## krandall

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Oh my goodness Boo’s paw💗💗💗💗💗 just when you think it can’t get any cuter there is this🐾🥰
> 
> Thank goodness cuddly little Chase will ‘only’ have plain old black paws like Flo…as I think THAT would tip me over the edge into cute insanity🥰🥰


Well, we haven’t looked yet… won’t you be surprised if Chase has a little HEART. On one of his paws! LOL!


----------



## krandall

MosesMom said:


> It's funny the people you find while browsing a breed specific forum for grooming questions that bother you in the early morning hours.
> 
> Uncle Moses says Hello  Super cute pups
> 
> -Devon (Moses's new mom)
> View attachment 174872


Is that Panda’s BROTHER, Moses Taylor?!?! ❤ To the rest of the forum members, this is the puppies’s uncle! Welcome!


----------



## krandall

The first two puppies have reported in from their new homes, and both are looking and acting like they are settling in well, and being loved to pieces!!! 💕 

Peeps/Parker (not sure where this name is going... THEY seem to call him Peeps most of the time!!! LOL!



















And Boo Radley, who didn't get settled in until 10:30 last night because of NYC traffic, but STILL looked pretty energetic in the video clips they also sent... not sure about his family!


----------



## LeleRF

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Oh my goodness Boo’s paw💗💗💗💗💗 just when you think it can’t get any cuter there is this🐾🥰
> 
> Thank goodness cuddly little Chase will ‘only’ have plain old black paws like Flo…as I think THAT would tip me over the edge into cute insanity🥰🥰


I knowwww, about Boo’s paw! It looks like one of those little link stamps! 

Indeed, we will ohh and ahh over every little cute squiggly bit of Chase. 🥰


----------



## krandall

LeleRF said:


> I knowwww, about Boo’s paw! It looks like one of those little link stamps!
> 
> Indeed, we will ohh and ahh over every little cute squiggly bit of Chase. 🥰


Besides, Chase has his unique bit of moonbeam on his nose! 💕 I don't know of another one with THAT either!


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

Oh Karen - just love all these photos and all the information you have posted. I wasn't able to keep up with the forum for a couple of days and I missed so much! I'm wondering if you don't shed a few tears when these precious bundles leave with their new families. I would! Love the paw on paw photo! When I first saw itI thought for sure its was inked on for some reason! These new owners are so dang lucky to have one of your puppies. If ever I am looking for a puppy, I have been so educated and have a good understanding of the time and energy that goes into such excellent breeding. I see why a good bred dog would be expensive.

I do have a question - why do breeders in their contracts require that the dog be "fixed"? Is it to prevent puppy mills? If someone wanted to breed, how do they go about getting a dog from a breeder that doesn't require the puppy be neutered or spayed?


----------



## EvaE1izabeth

krandall said:


> There are NO guarantees, with any puppy out of any litter. I did NOT choose Ducky because of any grand scheme for a breeding program. I have had ONE litter. I MAY have another litter at some completely undesignated time in the future. (and just as I was telling the truth all the times when I said I had NOT picked a puppy or a favorite, when people asked earlier, it is ALSO true that I have NO PLANS for an other litter at this time) Ducky may or may not figure into any future litter. I chose Ducky as my best option out of the litter for ME as a combination “Bred-by” conformation show dog and performance dog. This was not a business decision. This was to add another “dance partner” to my family.


Personally I think being as open as possible, in combination with the most educated choice, actually gives you the best chance of getting what you want, and that’s what you’ve done! Of course there are some personalities more or less naturally inclined towards certain goals, but that’s just a starting point, right? It seems counterintuitive, but I believe the owner who is paying attention to the puppy and open to who the puppy is, training from that perspective, and willing to accept they might not get the performance puppy, actually is more likely to get it in the end!

You have done such a great job of adapting to each individual Havanese in just the right way. The Havanese that are part of your family will be able to adapt to your life in the future, depending on your health and your goals and the whatever your life brings. I believe you will get joy out of whatever path they take you on because of who you are.


----------



## MosesMom

krandall said:


> Is that Panda’s BROTHER, Moses Taylor?!?! ❤ To the rest of the forum members, this is the puppies’s uncle! Welcome!


Yes indeed! I saw the name Panda, saw where you were from, and realized "Wait I know (of) that dog!" ...And confirmed with a little digging into your profile. 
According to Elizabeth, we actually use the same vet. Wild how small of a world it is some times.


----------



## krandall

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> Oh Karen - just love all these photos and all the information you have posted. I wasn't able to keep up with the forum for a couple of days and I missed so much! I'm wondering if you don't shed a few tears when these precious bundles leave with their new families. I would! Love the paw on paw photo! When I first saw itI thought for sure its was inked on for some reason! These new owners are so dang lucky to have one of your puppies. If ever I am looking for a puppy, I have been so educated and have a good understanding of the time and energy that goes into such excellent breeding. I see why a good bred dog would be expensive.
> 
> I do have a question - why do breeders in their contracts require that the dog be "fixed"? Is it to prevent puppy mills? I do not require that my puppies be spayed or neutered, and many more modern-thinking breeders are changing their thinking on this. I, and many breeders, are asking puppy buyers to put off spay/neuter AT LEAST until full maturity, and then it is up to the new owner and their vet to decide when/if they want to neuter. WITH the understanding that it is there FULL RESPONSIBILITY to control their pet's reproductive urges. I would not have sold a puppy to someone I thought I could not trust this way. (in Europe, in many countries, it is not LEGAL to spay/neuter your dog unless there is a medical need. People TRAIN their dogs and keep them under control! A novel concept here in the US!)
> 
> All my puppies were sold with "Limited Registration", meaning that no puppies that they produced if the owners were to be careless, even if bred with another registered Havanese could be registered.
> 
> There is one exception to this, and that is Luna. She is a nice girl and still a puppy. As The Dogfather has pointed out, you never know for sure what you have until the dog is an adult. While I sold her with a limited registration, her new owners know that when she is fully mature, we will reassess. If she looks like she is breeding quality, I MAY change that to full registration and allow them to have a litter. But there is no contractual obligation on either of our parts... it is a hand shake, "let's see what happens down the road" agreement, considering that she was my only girl, and that they are interested in the idea of possibly having a litter and keeping one of her puppies for themselves. Of course, I would not breed a daughter of hers to Ducky, so it is likely to only FURTHER complicate my life, but... it's a way to hold onto genetic material.
> 
> 
> 
> Jackie from Concrete WA said:
> 
> 
> 
> If someone wanted to breed, how do they go about getting a dog from a breeder that doesn't require the puppy be neutered or spayed?
> 
> 
> 
> It's really a matter of "paying your dues". I don't know any reputable breeder who would put a quality puppy into the hands of a person who just came and said, "I want to breed Havanese". Usually, someone has been in the breed for a while, gotten a pet Havanese from a good breeder, stayed in. touch with their breeder, learned all they can about the breed. Gone back to their breeder or another good breeder for a Havanese to show. That dog was probably sold to them on a co-owned contract. These vary... Mine said that I needed to finish Panda and get all her health clearances done, and at that point the breeder would sign off her papers. Because the breeder is also a friend, she ended up signing off her much earlier, just because she wanted to. I also discussed the potential sires with Panda's breeder, though I wasn't under an obligation to. Many times that is also part of the co-ownership contract. Usually there is a cause where, if something happens that makes it impossible to finish the dog, such as the bite going off, or crooked legs developing, the dog can either be kept as a pet (and the registration is changed to "limited" and the price is often adjusted, if it was sold for more than a "pet price"... Some breeders charge more for show/breeding prospects, others do not) or the dog can be returned or "petted out". (sold as a pet, as Ricky was) Again, that would depend on the contract.
> 
> Basically, if you "cold call" a breeder and they say they will sell you a pup for breeding, it pretty much guarantees that it is NOT a reputable breeder.
Click to expand...


----------



## krandall

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Personally I think being as open as possible, in combination with the most educated choice, actually gives you the best chance of getting what you want, and that’s what you’ve done! Of course there are some personalities more or less naturally inclined towards certain goals, but that’s just a starting point, right? It seems counterintuitive, but I believe the owner who is paying attention to the puppy and open to who the puppy is, training from that perspective, and willing to accept they might not get the performance puppy, actually is more likely to get it in the end!
> 
> You have done such a great job of adapting to each individual Havanese in just the right way. The Havanese that are part of your family will be able to adapt to your life in the future, depending on your health and your goals and the whatever your life brings. I believe you will get joy out of whatever path they take you on because of who you are.


Awww, thanks! If you start with a very shy or "soft" puppy, performance, or even showing, can be hard. Sometimes impossible. But none of these puppies are that, fortunately. Both parents are tough, happy and outgoing, and so are the puppies. And I have raise them to take advantage of those natural tendencies. Now, if their new owners were to shelter them too much and not continue their socialization and acclimation to new things and new places, and kept them at home all the time? Who knows? But I want to think that I chose their new families well, and THEY will make good choices for them too! With proper up-bringings, they should be happy, out-going, Havanese of the type I hoped to produce.

I can't guarantee that ANY of them, including Ducky, will make it as conformation show dogs. Things happen, and it's not until they are completely mature that you know what you have in that way. I feel QUITE confident that I can make Ducky into a confident, competent obedience/rally and (if _I'm_ up to it) agility dog. The only thing that would stop that would be some unforeseen accident. Could there be bumps along the way? There always ore in training a performance dog. But that is a big part of the fun of it. Every one is different, each one learns differently, and you have to adapt all you know, and use all the tools in your tool box to teach them what they need to know to do the tasks required! I am crossing my FINGERS that he will ALSO be a wonderful show dog for me, and, of course ALSO pass all his health clearances with is ALSO never a given.


----------



## krandall

MosesMom said:


> Yes indeed! I saw the name Panda, saw where you were from, and realized "Wait I know (of) that dog!" ...And confirmed with a little digging into your profile.
> According to Elizabeth, we actually use the same vet. Wild how small of a world it is some times.


Yes! I heard that you were going to Integrative! Linda came here to do the "well puppy" exams! 💗. PM me with your email address and I'll add you to our NE play date email list... We haven't had one in a while now because of Covid, but my guess is we'll start up again this summer!


----------



## krandall

…And puppy three, Tula Luna goes home…










…and then there were two. Proving that they are truly Havanese by oozing out of their bed…










I down-sized the pen a bit. I figured two puppies didn’t need QUITE as much room, and it gave us a tad bit more “room” back in our family room!










There are perks to being the last puppy to go home… Chase got to hang in the kitchen with the big dogs this evening while I made dinner! I could deal with two puppies. Five would be impossible! LOL!










Playing with Mom after dinner. She is spending a LOT of time playing with the two she has left!


----------



## LeleRF

krandall said:


> …And puppy three, Tula Luna goes home…
> 
> View attachment 174884
> 
> 
> …and then there were two. Proving that they are truly Havanese by oozing out of their bed…
> 
> View attachment 174885
> 
> 
> I down-sized the pen a bit. I figured two puppies didn’t need QUITE as much room, and it gave us a tad bit more “room” back in our family room!
> 
> View attachment 174886
> 
> 
> There are perks to being the last puppy to go home… Chase got to hang in the kitchen with the big dogs this evening while I made dinner! I could deal with two puppies. Five would be impossible! LOL!
> 
> View attachment 174887
> 
> 
> Playing with Mom after dinner. She is spending a LOT of time playing with the two she has left!
> 
> View attachment 174888


Awww, the beautiful yet feisty little Luna! They really are all so special in their own little way. 

That ‘oozing’ pic of Chase & Ducky...😝. Btw, where did you get that crate pad? It’s adorable!

Speaking of adorable, 💗 these pics of all the kiddos together in the kitchen!


----------



## krandall

Sorry, no idea on the crate pad. I have so many of them I pick them up when I see ones I like. Probably from a dog show!


----------



## LWalks

Oh, my, these pictures are everything! Thank you @krandall for sharing them all with us these last couple of months, and it sounds like they are all going to (or staying in!) wonderful families!! Congratulations!


----------



## Lalla

This has been a delight, an entertainment, an education, and the happiest kind of heartbreak at your beautiful puppies venturing forth into the world. Oh, that all dogs could get such a start in life, should be given so much love, attention, inventive nurturing, enhanced environmental wonder, and careful assessment of where they will go. In a world of awfulness this has been a reassurance that there are good people, good dogs, good stories, better than good affirmations of what life can and should be about. Thank you, Karen, for your generosity in sharing so much.


----------



## krandall

Awww, thank, Lala!


----------



## GoWithTheFlo

Lalla said:


> This has been a delight, an entertainment, an education, and the happiest kind of heartbreak at your beautiful puppies venturing forth into the world. Oh, that all dogs could get such a start in life, should be given so much love, attention, inventive nurturing, enhanced environmental wonder, and careful assessment of where they will go. In a world of awfulness this has been a reassurance that there are good people, good dogs, good stories, better than good affirmations of what life can and should be about. Thank you, Karen, for your generosity in sharing so much.


I love this message💕


----------



## krandall

And finally… Chase headed home. (I know he has his own thread with lovely photos at home! ❤ )









And then there was one. And this pen was ridiculously huge and no longer needed for one little Duckling.









So while Mama and Ducky played on the deck, I got to work.









First I set up Ducky’s growing-up pen in my office. (Digging out my desk so I can actually USE my office will wait for tomorrow (maybe!)). I did add some toys and his water bowl too!









And then I dismanteled the pen and SORT OF put the family room back together. I can’t roll up the vinyl or put the oriental rug back by myself, and Dave is off on a motorcycle trip through the weekend. But at least the pen is taken apart. I also used pieces of the pen to make gates so I can totally enclose the kitchen to keep a certain small Duckling enclosed in that room as needed! LOL!









I miss the puppies, but it IS kind of nice to have my house back again. My BACK hurts!!! LOL!


----------



## LeleRF

Wow, pretty quick & handy work there! Your home is looking like, well, a home again! 🏡👍Hopefully you’ll have a nice long rest & nurse that back! At least no more cleaning up that super sized pen!


----------



## Lalla

Oh, Karen, what a journey for you, and one just starting for all Panda’s puppies. Gorgeous photos, and such a wonderful journey for all of of us to have shared with you thanks to your generosity. I feel tearful, but in a good way.


----------



## Ditto's Mom

Love the picture of Panda and Ducky playing on the deck and Pixel waiting her turn to play with her new brother!!


----------



## krandall

Ditto's Mom said:


> Love the picture of Panda and Ducky playing on the deck and Pixel waiting her turn to play with her new brother!!


LOL! Pixel is actually aggravated that the steps are blocked and she can’t just come and go. She was waiting for me to lift her over so she could get back into the house! There is a lot of that right now, because the kitchen is blocked off as Ducky’s “safe play space”. And I guarantee you that which ever side of the gate Pixel and Kodi are on is NOT the side they WANT to be on! For the time being, anyway, Panda seems satisfied to be with her remaining puppy!


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

Oh I'm going to miss this thread when it comes to an end. Looks like it will shortly. Thank you Karen, for taking the time for us to go on this journey with you. It's been a blast!


----------



## krandall

Well, I was HOPING to get Birthday photos of all five of the sibs before I posted, but I'm still missing one, so I'm going to post anyway. It's not that they don't stay in touch, they do! I've substituted a screen capture from a recent video they sent, and I had a message from them night before last, that they had received his "Birthday Box". I guess they just partied too late last night and forgot to send me the photo! Ah well, I know he is well, adorable, and dearly loved! 💗

So here is the "Easter Basket Gang" at one year!!! Still only adolescents, (don't forget that, puppy people!) but pretty much full sized!

Mama Panda and "Number One Son" Ducky, High Jump Shutter Bug, On "Pride Rock" in our back yard. This is Ducky's favorite spot for surveying his territory. I sent a copy of this photo to all the sibs in their Birthday boxes!









"Parker", High Jump Picasso, sporting his his party hat in Long Island









"Luna", High Jump Tula Luna, who is a real Cuban girl in a true, Cuban home here in MA! She is showing off her new piñata toy! Her owners tell me she has them TOTALLY wrapped around her little paw! (as it should be!)










And our darling "Chase", High Jump Chasing Moon Beams, who gets the award for showing off what their bandanas say! He lives closest to me, so I've gotten to see him a couple of times!!! He continues to be a Luv Bug, though he isn't the slow, quiet boy he was as a LITTLE puppy anymore! Plenty of smarty pants Havi spunk in him now! 💗









...Here he shows how one should deal with removing "squeaky candies" from a piñata!!!









"Boo", High Jump Boo Radley, who resides in Brooklyn, NY, and seems to be sleeping in late this morning after his birthday party! But I know that he delights his family on a daily basis, dividing his time between the city and an upstate country home.









And, of course, "Ducky", High Jump Shutter Bug, who never left home! When he does something naughty, and I threaten to send him back to his breeder, he just laughs at me!!!









So, there they are! THIS seems SOOOO long ago, in some ways, in other ways, just the blink of an eye!!! 💕









And when they were born, the thought of another litter seemed very far off indeed! With all the trouble we had in the first couple of weeks, I wasn't sure if I ever wanted to do it again!!! 

Now, at a year old, with this wonderful little boy, who is more than I could have dared hope for, and an entire litter that I am extremely proud of, we are starting on Ducky's health testing and DNA testing for color and coat types, as well as to avoid breeding him from too-close relatives. He will be back in the conformation ring this coming weekend, working toward his championship and hopefully beyond. He is working steadily toward learning the skills for performance titles as well. At a year, I am looking into STARTING him in agility to see if MY body can keep up with him after several years out of that sport with Kodi and Panda. He has already had a number of inquiries for stud service when the time comes, but he is too young for that yet! Not that HE thinks he is!!! (teenage boy and all...) I've also started putting out feelers for potential girls for a litter for him myself in the future. That is still only in the "dream" stages, AT LEAST a year away. But if looking back is any indication, it is a reminder of how quickly a year can pass!!!


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA

Great, great photos! I can't believe it's already been a year. I know you've probably posted this in the past, but what do you call Ducky's coloring? He's just gorgeous.


----------



## Tere

Panda and **** made some beautiful puppies. So nice to see them almost grown up. I had not realized that Cadbury is now Chase.


----------



## krandall

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> Great, great photos! I can't believe it's already been a year. I know you've probably posted this in the past, but what do you call Ducky's coloring? He's just gorgeous.


He is a clear red and white parti. Thanks! I’m pretty happy with him!


----------



## krandall

Tere said:


> Panda and **** made some beautiful puppies. So nice to see them almost grown up. I had not realized that Cadbury is now Chase.


Oh! yes! i should have included their litter names!

Cadbury - Chase
Peeps - Parker
Chirp - Luna
Jelly Bean - Boo
and Ducky didn’t change!


----------



## LeleRF

krandall said:


> Oh! yes! i should have included their litter names!
> 
> Cadbury - Chase
> Peeps - Parker
> Chirp - Luna
> Jelly Bean - Boo
> and Ducky didn’t change!


I, of course, remembered all the little darlings! Such fun to see them all. I’m going to guess that Parker is the biggest or at least heavier of the bunch and Ducky the smallest/lightest.


----------



## krandall

LeleRF said:


> I, of course, remembered all the little darlings! Such fun to see them all. I’m going to guess that Parker is the biggest or at least heavier of the bunch and Ducky the smallest/lightest.


❤ Absolutely right!!!


----------



## krandall

The last brother, Boo, High Jump Boo Radley (Jelly Bean) has checked in with updated Birthday photos, completing the set! 💗


----------



## LWalks

They’re all adorable! ❤


----------



## Tere

Karen, do you know why I'm not allowed to type the name of Ducky's father in one of my posts?


----------



## Heather's

How time flies! Happy 1st Birthday to all these cuties! 🥳


----------



## krandall

Tere said:


> Karen, do you know why I'm not allowed to type the name of Ducky's father in one of my posts?


Yes. Because, in its infinite wisdom, the forum has decided the He.be is a "bad word" because it says so in some on-line Urban Dictionary that can't even spell right on line. That WORD is the SCIENTIFIC name of a PLANT that grows in New Zealand that a special kind of honey is made from. The three honey colored puppies in the litter were all named after different kinds of honey. Another was named "Manuka", another type of honey, which the forum thinks is OK.  (I can't remember the third "honey" name was, off-hand) I guess that dictionary thinks the word is a slur against Jewish people. The FUNNIEST thing is that He.be's breeder AND owner are both Jewish, and they BOTH loved his litter name and decided to keep it and incorporate it into his registered name, Fivefields He.be Amazing. Also, AKC will not allow you to use either a swear word or racial epithet as part of a registered name and THEY had no problem registering him with this name. But the FORUM won't let us use it.  🤷‍♀️

Such a shame for such a sweet, pretty boy!!! 💗


----------



## Tere

Thanks for the explanation. I agree, it is really silly though. But **** is a very beautiful little man. I am quite taken with how pretty he is. Ducky, too


----------



## MJB

krandall said:


> Well, I was HOPING to get Birthday photos of all five of the sibs before I posted, but I'm still missing one, so I'm going to post anyway. It's not that they don't stay in touch, they do! I've substituted a screen capture from a recent video they sent, and I had a message from them night before last, that they had received his "Birthday Box". I guess they just partied too late last night and forgot to send me the photo! Ah well, I know he is well, adorable, and dearly loved! 💗
> 
> So here is the "Easter Basket Gang" at one year!!! Still only adolescents, (don't forget that, puppy people!) but pretty much full sized!
> 
> Mama Panda and "Number One Son" Ducky, High Jump Shutter Bug, On "Pride Rock" in our back yard. This is Ducky's favorite spot for surveying his territory. I sent a copy of this photo to all the sibs in their Birthday boxes!
> View attachment 177550
> 
> 
> "Parker", High Jump Picasso, sporting his his party hat in Long Island
> View attachment 177552
> 
> 
> "Luna", High Jump Tula Luna, who is a real Cuban girl in a true, Cuban home here in MA! She is showing off her new piñata toy! Her owners tell me she has them TOTALLY wrapped around her little paw! (as it should be!)
> View attachment 177553
> 
> 
> 
> And our darling "Chase", High Jump Chasing Moon Beams, who gets the award for showing off what their bandanas say! He lives closest to me, so I've gotten to see him a couple of times!!! He continues to be a Luv Bug, though he isn't the slow, quiet boy he was as a LITTLE puppy anymore! Plenty of smarty pants Havi spunk in him now! 💗
> View attachment 177555
> 
> 
> ...Here he shows how one should deal with removing "squeaky candies" from a piñata!!!
> View attachment 177556
> 
> 
> "Boo", High Jump Boo Radley, who resides in Brooklyn, NY, and seems to be sleeping in late this morning after his birthday party! But I know that he delights his family on a daily basis, dividing his time between the city and an upstate country home.
> View attachment 177557
> 
> 
> And, of course, "Ducky", High Jump Shutter Bug, who never left home! When he does something naughty, and I threaten to send him back to his breeder, he just laughs at me!!!
> View attachment 177558
> 
> 
> So, there they are! THIS seems SOOOO long ago, in some ways, in other ways, just the blink of an eye!!! 💕
> View attachment 177559
> 
> 
> And when they were born, the thought of another litter seemed very far off indeed! With all the trouble we had in the first couple of weeks, I wasn't sure if I ever wanted to do it again!!!
> 
> Now, at a year old, with this wonderful little boy, who is more than I could have dared hope for, and an entire litter that I am extremely proud of, we are starting on Ducky's health testing and DNA testing for color and coat types, as well as to avoid breeding him from too-close relatives. He will be back in the conformation ring this coming weekend, working toward his championship and hopefully beyond. He is working steadily toward learning the skills for performance titles as well. At a year, I am looking into STARTING him in agility to see if MY body can keep up with him after several years out of that sport with Kodi and Panda. He has already had a number of inquiries for stud service when the time comes, but he is too young for that yet! Not that HE thinks he is!!! (teenage boy and all...) I've also started putting out feelers for potential girls for a litter for him myself in the future. That is still only in the "dream" stages, AT LEAST a year away. But if looking back is any indication, it is a reminder of how quickly a year can pass!!!


Beautiful Babies!


----------



## LeleRF

He.be is absolutely gorgeous, and while I may be biased, he and the lovely Panda made 5 fine little beauties. I know Chase’s fur is very soft but Ducky’s fur from what I’m remembering was almost like a bunny’s fur it was that soft and luxurious. @krandall Is it still like that?


----------



## krandall

LeleRF said:


> He.be is absolutely gorgeous, and while I may be biased, he and the lovely Panda made 5 fine little beauties. I know Chase’s fur is very soft but Ducky’s fur from what I’m remembering was almost like a bunny’s fur it was that soft and luxurious. @krandall Is it still like that?


Yes it is! I just love to run my hands through him!


----------

