# Should I be worried??



## JanB

Hi, I'm new here, but I've been lurking for about a week. I've known for several years that when the time came I wanted to get a Havanese. We recently lost our beloved Sheltie at age 15 1/2. I'm ready now to bring a puppy in our home and have been looking for a Havanese breeder. I've done lots of reading and research so know what to look for in a breeder. I found a breeder that lives about 3 hours away and she meets all the criteria for a good breeder. Her dogs have all the health certifications, she shows her dogs, puppies are raised in her home, etc. I've spoken to someone who got their puppy from her and she said it was a positive experience. However...and this is what has me a little worried...she has 7 puppies available that were born in May, and 3 that were born at the end of July. Her explanation is that in past years she has had to turn potential buyers away so she had 6 litters last year, and there weren't as many inquiries as expected.

My question: does this sound legitimate? Is this worrisome? I was under the assumption puppies were hard to find so to find a breeder with so many available, (especially since they are older puppies), has me wondering. Also, should I be worried about getting an older puppy?

Thanks so much! And I look forward to getting to know all of you!

Jan


----------



## Lina

Hi Jan and :welcome: to the forum! I'm sorry to hear about your loss, but it sounds like your Sheltie led a good long life. :hug:

It's hard for me to judge without knowing all the details, but from what you have said, it is a little strange that she had 6 litters in one year! Does she have six females? And if so how often have they been bred? It's not good to overbreed a female (I've heard once a year max, but I'm sure that the breeders on the forum have better experience with this). In addition, I do think it's strange that he has 7 puppies still available who were born last May! That's weird to me...

But it's really about what you are comfortable with. If you have found that she does all the health testing and YOU are happy with the breeder and you feel like you can have a good relationship with her, then that's what is really important. As long as you do all your homework and minimize your chances of something going wrong later, it all really comes down to how you feel.

As far as getting an older pup, I don't think there's anything at all wrong with it. You can ask people here who have gotten older pups, but they all seem to do just fine. And in fact it can be helpful since you don't have to go through so many potty accidents, etc.

Let us know what you decide and good luck puppy shopping!


----------



## casperkeep

Hello!!!!:welcome:I am sorry to hear about your sheltie. We had a sheltie and we had to put her to sleep two years ago....it was really hard but she lived a good life. I would look into it a little more of why there are so many puppies left....that sounds a little weird to me.....are they all from the same litter? Just keep us posted on what you decide to do!!!!


----------



## Thumper

Gosh, I don't know...maybe some of the breeders here have a better idea on your questions.

I know it does 'appear' that the supply has exceeded the demand to a certain degree. I know that when I was looking there were virtually NO dogs available and waiting lists everywhere. Now, I see that there are many Hav pups available and yes, even with breeders that do all the health testing.

As an Economist, I have to wonder if the slow down is effecting people to the degree they aren't adding pets to their family just yet. I don't know, but as far as getting an older puppy, I know several people on her have and haven't had any problems training and them adjusting to their forever homes.

So sorry to hear about your loss 

Keep us posted!
Kara


----------



## marjrc

Welcome to the forum, Jan! Glad to hear you are looking to own a Hav pup. 

I, too, have questions about this situation. It might not mean a thing, but who knows? I'd have the same concerns you have. How reassuring is the breeder in her explanation about this? What does your gut tell you?

No doubt others will have actual advice. i'm just here to chat.  lol


----------



## Cosmosmom

I do not think that this is necessarily a red flag .. There are a couple of things that could have happened . Her litters could have been larger than she expected . Some people may have changed their minds and left her in the lurch .
Asta was in a litter of five - it was this particular dogs's first litter and they had only expected two puppies so they had three more puppies to place - so things happen.. . 
I agree with Kara - the economy is changing and this little guys are pricey .
I know a friend got a Golden puppy for next to nothing as this happened to her breeder - she had too many puppies and she wanted them to go to good homes . She was a well known breeder here in Ca .. She had more puppies than she expected . She had two very large littters which happens with bigger dogs .. 
As to getting an older puppy I would say go for it . They are sometimes a little easier than the tiny cute ones -10 weeks or so .
I was offered a 3 month old and I would have love to have had it but my Mom was too sick and the timing was not that convenient for me .. I ended up waited another 6 months for Asta - . it was so hard and I was angry as I could have had a dog for six months but I had to wait .. ..
Another thing sometimes breeders hold back puppies as they think they may have show potential for showing and as they grow they change their minds or their circumstances change ..


----------



## Cheryl

JanB I have a couple different thoughts on this subject. I am curious where you are from and if any of us know this breeder. I also wonder if you have actually checked the results of her health testing or have just taken her word that the tests were done. Would you consider making the 3 hour drive to make sure that the puppies are being raised under the conditions you have been told? If you do, leave your check book at home. It is very difficult to walk a way from a cute puppy even when every instinct is telling you to do that. Also, have you asked her to match one of her pupies temperament wise to what you think would meet the needs of your family? Does she have specific puppy in mind for you? 

Good luck with your search. They are a fabulous breed and I am sure add a lot to your family.


----------



## The Fussy Puppy Gang

I second what Cheryl wrote. Verify the health test results. If they check out, then you can go from there.

Whatever happens, best of luck on your puppy search!

Wanda


----------



## Julie

Jan,
I don't know about the numbers--but I did want to comment on the older puppies.My Quincy was 16 weeks old when I got him and it was great.He was crate trained and was potty broke to her house(we had to start over in mine,but he knew what was expected of him),he was well socialized,used to being handled and groomed.All around it was very positive.I would not let age restrict your options.....:biggrin1:


----------



## lfung5

I know a couple GREAT breeders who often have older pups, because they are very selective in placing pups. For example, the one breeder won't place a pup with you if you work more than 3 hours a day. The other is so over protective she ends up keeping the pups until they are almost a year old! If that's why this breeder has so many older pups, I would give her a metal and not be worried. I don't know how you would find that out though. Good luck!


----------



## JanB

Thanks for the warm welcome!

I just posted a long reply and when I tried to submit it said I wasn't logged in and I lost the whole thing!! Grr!

My husband is impatiently waiting to go out to dinner so I'll be back later this evening and answer some questions.

Thanks to all,

Jan

P.S. the breeder is Payasa Havanese in Indianapolis, http://www.payasahavanese.com


----------



## casperkeep

Hi Janb!!! I was wondering how far you are willing to travel? I know of some good breeders....just pm sometime and I give can give you some info!!!!


----------



## Havtahava

JanB said:


> I found a breeder that lives about 3 hours away and she meets all the criteria for a good breeder. Her dogs have all the health certifications, she shows her dogs, puppies are raised in her home, etc. I've spoken to someone who got their puppy from her and she said it was a positive experience. However...and this is what has me a little worried...she has 7 puppies available that were born in May, and 3 that were born at the end of July. Her explanation is that in past years she has had to turn potential buyers away so she had 6 litters last year, and there weren't as many inquiries as expected.
> 
> My question: does this sound legitimate? Is this worrisome? I was under the assumption puppies were hard to find so to find a breeder with so many available, (especially since they are older puppies), has me wondering. Also, should I be worried about getting an older puppy?


Just because she has puppies at home from two different litters, that shouldn't necessarily be of concern. I think it is much more important that she is doing the health testing on the parents that you can verify (not from her web site, but from www.offa.org), and then get to meet her and see how you feel in working with her.

Go to Mary Anne's page on Choosing A Breeder and see what she has to say about it. I think she has some excellent advice for you and I'd encourage you to investigate her by the very means she suggest. I think you may be very pleasantly surprised.

And please don't take anyone's recommendation as a sole means of endorsement. If you do the homework yourself, you'll feel confident in your choice of a breeder, and I think you'll feel even better about your puppy when the time comes.


----------



## JanB

I'm back!

Thank you for the warm welcome and for the expressions of sympathy for our loss. We miss Sophie so much. Thanks also to all who responded. You've done much to put my fears to rest and given me some excellent questions to ask.

I do hope I haven't been offensive to any breeders. By all accounts I do believe this breeder is reputable, and yes, I have checked the health testing at offa's site. But there was still a niggling doubt, I suppose because before I searched for a breeder, everything I read said there would be a long wait list for a puppy. So this situation simply gave me pause for thought. I just want to make sure I wasn't following just my heart, but my head as well because I am ready for this puppy in the worst way! 

As has been mentioned, all the puppies aren't from the same litter, and they do have 9 females and 3 males that they breed.

It also sounds like getting a puppy that is a bit older can be a plus. That makes me feel better too, knowing some of you have nothing but positive things to say about an older puppy.

My husband and I are in Destin FL at the moment, returning to IN Nov 7th. We'll be traveling to Indianapolis Sat, Nov 10th to visit and meet the puppies. I'm not sure I will be able to leave my checkbook at home, although it is good advice. I have Havanese puppy fever bad! And if I have a good breeder and find a puppy that is a good match...well, then I will want her right away 

We'll be looking at the 4 female puppies available and hoping for a good temperament/personality fit. So i suppose that is what I need to research next!

Thanks again, and I will definitely be keeping all of you posted.

Jan


----------



## Cheryl

I am getting excited for you Jan B. Tell us about the 4 little girls that you are looking at. After all we can see them on the website. We are known to give our opinons. In fact, I m going to look at the sight now and pick your little girl for you. :biggrin1:


----------



## JanB

Oh, I forgot..

Kimberly, you're absolutely correct in not taking one endorsement as my sole means of finding a good breeder. I did feel like I had done my homework but it sure is nice to get even more positive feedback. Thanks!

jan


----------



## JanB

Cheryl, You are too funny! Bubblegum and Velcro are on the website. She hasn't posted the pics of the 2 new females yet. But she did e-mail me pics. They are of course, absolutely adorable. One is nearly all black with a white 'T" on her face (mouth to top of head); the other has an all white body with a black face with white "eyebrows".

I'm on vacation and all I do is think, live and breath Havanese puppies. Luckily, my husband is very forgiving and understanding, lol!


----------



## Brady's mom

Jan,
Welcome. I am so sorry for your loss. But, I just checked out those puppies. I can't imagine meeting them and not coming home with one. You will have to keep us posted. They are adorable. It sounds like you have done your homework. You will now when you are there if everything feels right to you. Good luck. Can't wait to see pictures and hear all about your new little one. We all have Puppy Fever around here


----------



## irnfit

I vote for Kit Kat or Almond Joy. They are cute.


----------



## Lina

Jan, that is so exciting that you will be looking at the puppies soon! I'm sure that if you feel comfortable then that's really all that's important. 

Please let us know which one you pick! I think Bubblegum is adorable, but I really do love :eyebrows: so this would be a hard decision for me! Basically, it comes down to personality and which one fits your home environment better. Keep us updated!


----------



## JanB

Michele, OK, I will admit I am scared to death of a male puppy. Marking and mounting, territorial, etc. I have a friend who keeps her male dog in diapers due to marking. UGH!! 

I did read where some think the males are more loving (in love with you rather than loving you) But i'm not convinced.

I know I iwll now get a lot of replies telling me about their wonderful male puppies... So, convince me!


----------



## maryam187

Jan :welcome: to this lovely forum!
You are one lucky Lady if you get to pick your puppy on Nov. 10th! Everybody else seems to get to their puppy before me, haha! I would pick Almond Joy!!! He's adorable, but I think you're looking for a girl. Hope Almond Joy will choose and convince you that a boy can be good too :biggrin1:
Keep us updated, we're all nosy!


----------



## maryam187

Wow, Jan we posted at the same time about 'boys'. I don't have mine yet, but I'm not scared of it at all. There are ways to train your dog and males are not the only ones to mark! But I'm sure, lots of people with males/females will give you more advice.


----------



## JanB

I will...thanks!! I do know my options would be greater if I were open to a male or female puppy. And I do know personality/temperament is most important. But seeing my friend's dog in diapers.....


----------



## Havtahava

Jan, is your friend's dog a Hav? In my experience with four male Havs over the years, they are extreme pleasers and quick to learn. I had one of my mature males try to mark in my house one time and that was it. He never did it again. I don't even allow them to mark when we walk around the neighborhood because I feel that urine all over the hardscape of my house and the neighbors' is rude. I give them two places out front that they can mark on our walks (in *my* yard) and that is all that is allowed outdoors. These guys want to make you happy and are so sweet.

I'm not trying to persude you to get a male, but if I were to only have one, it would definitely be of that gender.  The girls are really nice and sweet for the most part, but it's a different kind of love.


----------



## JanB

Kimberly,

Interesting. I just read Cesar's book about being the pack leader so I guess if you are the leader you can stop the marking?

I know 3 people with a Havanese, and all have females. I do think there is a prejudice.


----------



## good buddy

I have a male and no marking! Of course, to be fair he is a bit shy of 7 months. He was starting to leg lift and mark outdoors with a vengeance and we had him neutered pretty soon after it started. Since his neuter he has only lifted his leg a couple times outdoors and it wasn't in the same "marking" competitive manner as before. He's never even thought to lift his leg in the house and I feel safe he's not going to. This is the first time I've ever had a male dog and I was a bit nervous how the marking thing would go. I'm not worried anymore. It's the same as training your dog not to sniff people's crotches, or jump up on the furniture, or beg at the table. If you don't want it, you teach them it's not acceptable. I think neutering helps too and as long as you are looking for a pet, I'm sure you plan to neuter anyways, so no problem! My male is sooooo sweet and loving. You would never once regret it! :whoo:

Convinced??


----------



## Cheryl

I own a male and a female. Neither of them marks--we had the maole neutered at 6 months. Are you going ofr a pet with neutering or a show dog. BTW--I LOVE Velcro.

What kind of personality are you going for?"


----------



## JanB

oh, there's an idea...get one of each 

I would like a puppy that is playful and fun, but not hyper. I would like her/him to be content at times to snuggle up. A love bug. Not a lap dog though. My husband and I are new empty-nesters so I definitely want this puppy for companionship.

Neither dominant nor too submissive.

A pet, no show dog, so yes, it would be spayed/neutered.

So...this sounds like all Havanese doesn't it?

I'm signing out for the night..g'night all! 

You all are a GREAT group...so warm and welcoming! And funny. Thanks so much.


----------



## The Fussy Puppy Gang

OMG I would be bringing Zip home in a heartbeat. It's a good thing I'm no where near Indiana. 

As for the girls, Velcro looks like a peach! :thumb: 

I hope one of the gals turns out to be an ideal match for you.

Wanda


----------



## Amy R.

Hi Jan, :welcome: I'm checking the forum from out-of-town, on an unfamiliar laptop, so bear with me if there are typos. I just HAD to weigh in on the subject of males. Our Havanese male is 13 months old. He has NEVER lifted his leg, not once, and marked. When we walk and get to the grassy area where a lot of dogs have been, he'll squat and mark maybe once. That's IT. His disposition could not be more marvelous. He is such a pleaser, a playful scamp, and total lovebug. My husband (a very reserved guy) said recently that Biscuit's heart is always full of joy. (So sweet! He brings out the best in us.) He also has never chewed on the furniture or done anything destructive. (Though he does love to chew, but it is easily channeled with toys.) He also doesn't hump, although another male Hav he plays with does. He was flawlessly housebroken by 6 months, and learns everything quickly. For what it's worth, he was the most layed-back puppy in the litter, and that's why we picked him.

Was this all just dumb luck? Perhaps, as he's our first dog, first Hav, and first and only male. Kimberly's opinion should count heavily, though, as she is a breeder. And my own breeder told me from the get-go that she strongly preferred the males.

I really had no bias either way when we picked him. And I'm not trying to persuade you to get a male over a female, but only to open your mind and not just categorically reject all males. I think perhaps a better way to approach it is to go with the puppy that you fall in love with, irregardless of the sex.
Best of luck and keep us all posted.


----------



## Amy R.

Just looked at the pix. I do LOVE the little girl, Velcro. I'm a little concerned at the age of these pups, in that they are already five months old. We got our guy at 3 months, and I just feel like you will miss out on a lot of cute puppyhood. Note that the most recent pix were taken a couple of months ago. Though perhaps they are well potty-trained by now.


----------



## Thumper

JanB said:


> Thanks for the warm welcome!
> 
> I just posted a long reply and when I tried to submit it said I wasn't logged in and I lost the whole thing!! Grr!
> 
> My husband is impatiently waiting to go out to dinner so I'll be back later this evening and answer some questions.
> 
> Thanks to all,
> 
> Jan
> 
> P.S. the breeder is Payasa Havanese in Indianapolis, http://www.payasahavanese.com


Gosh, they are all so cute! I would ask alot of questions on personality and temperment. Find out how each one interacts with the family and go from there.

I have a girl and I'm very happy with her qualities. She's always snuggled up to me and adores me, follows me around like velcro and generally well behaved and has been a breeze to train. And she's definately not "hyper" at all, she's very laid back and a bit girly (doesn't like to get dirty, etc. lol)

My husband said "no way" to males from the get go for the issues you are worried about, so I really didn't have much a choice, but I couldn't be happier with her.

You'll find that reading through this forum and listening to people talk about their dogs, that there are many different personalities both for males and females. So, I would just focus on personality and temperment if you can! There are gems in both sexes 

Kara


----------



## Laurief

I am in love with Velcro= she is a doll! Hope you make out well with your search.


----------



## Thumper

I was drawn to "Velcro" too. What a sweet expression! Did they name her after her personality? 

Kara


----------



## Paige

Jan, I have three male havanese and they do not mark in my home...They have never tried it...

They do lift their leg when they potty...but as Kim said, I don't allow mariking when I take them on a walk...My femaile lab tries to mark when we take her out for a walk....and I have seen her mark over the boys after they have gone potty...

My boys are very loving and quick to please..

I would choose by temperment though, and not sex...I really don't think you can go wrong with any gender of the havanese.


----------



## lfung5

I think the breeder you are talking about is good.

I have 2 males and a female. My female marks OUTSIDE just as much as my males. My boys don't mark inside my house and they don't try to hump me. They hump each other to show dominance. My nueter male does not mark inside, but the male that's in tact marked inside someone else's house for the first time this weekend. He is 11 months old and their were many bitches there. Normally, if you neuter a male he won't mark inside. 

My boys are way more loving and affectionate than my girl. She is very affectionate and calm, but there's a slight difference. I prefer the males for sure! If you plan on getting him neutered. don't worry about the marking.


----------



## Laurief

I agree with Paige, that you really cant go wrong with whichever sex you pic. I have two girls and one boy and they are all GREAT. No one marks in the house ever. The alpha female only marks outside on the other twos urine spots. Good luck finding that perfect pup!!


----------



## casperkeep

When we were looking into getting our puppy we took our personal dog trainer with us to help us with the temperment testing. One thing that I thought was good was to take each puppy out of the enviroment and have just you and your husband alone with him or her and see how they act.....that might help make a decsion. I hope this makes sense to you....I have a hard time explaining myself on here....keep us posted!! I am going to go and look at the website.


----------



## Lina

As far as mounting/humping, just wanted to weigh in with an opinion here. Kubrick has never tried it yet, though of course he is only 6 months and has been recently neutered (nor has he lifted his leg or marked), but all the female Havs that I have met in the dog parks of the city (I've met three) have ALL been humpers. It's actually quite funny. I think it's because in general (and I AM generalizing, I realize there are always exceptions) females of the breed are more dominant than the males. I've begun to notice that almost everyone who has multiple Havs of different sexes say that the girl is the alpha. It's funny to me, but that's what I've noticed.

I'm not trying to sway you in either direction, just trying to give you an open mind. I think it would work out for the best if you choose a puppy regardless of sex and based on temperament if you won't be showing.

Good luck!


----------



## Thumper

Gosh, that would be funny to see. I've never met anyone in real life w/ a female humper. The Hav playdates I've been too, I've never seen that either.

I'm glad my girl doesn't do that. I'd be horrified! LOL I think she does become more dominant around other dogs, but never with me. But if a male is around she surely lets them know she is queen bee....lol, just thankfully in other ways! hah.

Kara


----------



## irnfit

Shelby humps Kodi sometimes, but she doesn't quite get it right. She is usually hunched over him sideways across his back.


----------



## Havtahava

Oh gosh, now I wish I could show you all how our living room looked last night while DH & I sat on the sofa and watched a show together. Picture sweet lil' Piaget on a bed just minding his own business and chewing on a Flossy, when the girls decide that he looks a little too much like the king of the room. One after the other, each one came over and decided to climb on top of him and begin their mounting routine. Hillary was humping his hips, Martha was humping his head and Tinky was just chomping on him anywhere she could get in between. And yes, he was in heaven. ound:


----------



## Thumper

LOL! Maybe I don't have this problem because I've got a singleton/only-dog! 

What's kinda ironic, is that there are alot of havs that don't mark on the forum, but the people we know in Real-life do have problems with it. I wish I could get my husband to read the forum instead of talking to our friends with boys! LOL, that way...I could get me a lil' boy!  teehee.

And then, knowing my luck...Gucci would hump him! haha

Kara


----------



## Laurief

My three all hump each other when they are rough housing, It is simply an alpha thing & nothing more. When they get all worked up they want to show the other two that he or she is in charge. I just say get down sternly and they stop.


----------



## Paige

Havtahava said:


> Oh gosh, now I wish I could show you all how our living room looked last night while DH & I sat on the sofa and watched a show together. Picture sweet lil' Piaget on a bed just minding his own business and chewing on a Flossy, when the girls decide that he looks a little too much like the king of the room. One after the other, each one came over and decided to climb on top of him and begin their mounting routine. Hillary was humping his hips, Martha was humping his head and Tinky was just chomping on him anywhere she could get in between. And yes, he was in heaven. ound:


What guy wouldn't LOVE that kind of attentionound:


----------



## Havtahava

That's exactly what it is, Laurie - a sign of dominance. And Piaget gladly wants them to be dominant because then they come and wrestle him. :laugh:


----------



## Lina

Kimberly, ound: :laugh: ound: that is hilarious! I wish I could have seen it!

Kubrick has seen other dogs humping in the dog park and I think he doesn't understand it because he will go between the humper and the humpee and try to see what is going on! Completely mortifying for me, but hilarious to everyone else at the dog park! :laugh:

At least he still hasn't figured out how it "works" because he has yet to do it himself. LOL.


----------



## Paige

Havtahava said:


> That's exactly what it is, Laurie - a sign of dominance. And Piaget gladly wants them to be dominant because then they come and wrestle him. :laugh:


I also read (I think in A Loved Dog) that dogs will do this in play.


----------



## Laurief

It is funny to watch cause they are humping heads, arms, legs, tails - They are hilarious! ound:


----------



## Lina

Paige, I have heard that humping is a definite sign of dominance, but I never heard about it being a part of play. Maybe it's play only when the other dog is in on it since at the dog park the number of dogs getting humped who are VERY annoyed by it is enormous! They really don't seem to like it at all. LOL.


----------



## Paige

Lina said:


> Paige, I have heard that humping is a definite sign of dominance, but I never heard about it being a part of play. Maybe it's play only when the other dog is in on it since at the dog park the number of dogs getting humped who are VERY annoyed by it is enormous! They really don't seem to like it at all. LOL.


I would say it would have to be from another dog that they are on a friendly basis with...or it wouldn't be taken too kindly


----------



## Paige

Thumperlove said:


> LOL! Maybe I don't have this problem because I've got a singleton/only-dog!
> 
> What's kinda ironic, is that there are alot of havs that don't mark on the forum, but the people we know in Real-life do have problems with it. I wish I could get my husband to read the forum instead of talking to our friends with boys! LOL, that way...I could get me a lil' boy!  teehee.
> 
> And then, knowing my luck...Gucci would hump him! haha
> 
> Kara


Oh come on Kara..you know your the "Alpha" at your house...Just tell hubby that you are getting that little boy you want to go with Gucci. Just keep the boy away from your real friends havs, so your new little boy doesn't learn bad habits from them.


----------



## Leslie

Kara~ Shadow, all 5 lb. of her, was a big humper. She usually just did it to my son's 12 lb. female pekingese. She could only do it when Rascal was lying down, though, since she was so tiny ound:


----------



## JanB

Hi all,

My decision just got harder. I spoke for over an hour to a different breeder in the Indianapolis area. She has a litter that was born on Sept 3 so will be ready to go home in Nov. The puppies are adorable and everything else is legitimate although she's not so much into showing her dogs as she's the busy mother of 4.


----------



## Thumper

reece said:


> Oh come on Kara..you know your the "Alpha" at your house...Just tell hubby that you are getting that little boy you want to go with Gucci. Just keep the boy away from your real friends havs, so your new little boy doesn't learn bad habits from them.


LOL, I know I am Queen Alpha, but isn't there a heirarchy amongst the dogs??

Yeah..I'm thinking I need a boy for Gucci to Hump! ound:I have GOT to get my husband reading some of these threads to know that it IS possible to train them not to mark. I keep telling him that! What can I say to lure him to the forum?? hmm..



> My decision just got harder. I spoke for over an hour to a different breeder in the Indianapolis area. She has a litter that was born on Sept 3 so will be ready to go home in Nov. The puppies are adorable and everything else is legitimate although she's not so much into showing her dogs as she's the busy mother of 4.


It is definately not an easy decision, but take your time and research the health records and discuss temperment in length...especially if you want a more "laid back/not hyper" type personality. Did she show you any pictures?

Kara


----------



## JanB

Oh, I just caught up on all the humping conversation, lol!

My female Sheltie who was a very calm, submissive dog, no alpha in her at all tried to hump us a handful of times...the first time I'd ever seen a female hump! My husband and I didn't know what to think!

I think what I'm hearing is to keep an open mind, that humping and marking can be controlled.

Great advice to take the puppy somewhere alone to see how it interacts with us. Temperament is the most important quality we're looking for.

Anyone hear of this breeder in the Indianapolis area:

http://havinfunhavanese.com

Thanks!

Jan


----------



## Havtahava

I don't recognize the kennel name, but I'm more familiar with the names of people anyway. I just went through her whole web site and couldn't find anything about who they are or what their names are to tell you anything though. The good thing is that she does seem to have at least one of her dogs listed with his full registered name, so you can verify his health testing. 

Who are the parents of the puppies? Did you check out the health testing yourself yet?


----------



## JanB

I just checked and it looks like the father "Will" has a "persistent pupillary membrane". Yikes, I don't know what that is but it doesn't sound good!! It also looks like testing hasn't been done since 04 and 05.

The puppies are shown on the puppy page. Emma and Nancy are the girls available.

It looks like I need to stay with the proven and tested Payasa!


----------



## Thumper

> I just checked and it looks like the father "Will" has a "persistent pupillary membrane".


Yikes! I think that might be a precursor to cataract? Didn't Jan say that? Anyone? eeks.

Bravo to you for doing your homework!!! 

Kara


----------



## Julie

I just want to tell you Jan--that I have a male hav and my sheltie is a male.Both were neutered at about 6 mo.Never have I had a marking issue inside or out!I would never tolerate that......both of my boys still squat to pee....and humping isn't an issue either.In fact,Vinnie has never humped--and Quincy has tried to hump Vinnie--but he is scolded and has only tried it a time or two.I do follow closely though Cesar's advice,and I am the boss here and they know it.Both love the devil out of me...I would never hesitate to get another male---but that is just my opinion.Quincy is very sweet and loving,but not expected to sit on my lap all day long because I don't want him to.....Good luck with your choice!Oh--Vinnie is about 2 1/2 and Quincy is 18 months


----------



## JanB

Julie, thanks...i will try to keep an open mind when I visit the puppies.

BTW, my Sophie looked just like your Vinnie; such beautiful coloring. We miss her so much.


----------



## JanB

Oh, I've done some looking online and I see where PPM can lead to cataracts if it's a pupil to lens membrane, otherwise it doesn't cause problems. Will's is iris to iris so probably there is no sight problems. Also it is generally not genetic. Anyone here with any experience/knowledge in this area? I know we have to be a little suspicious of internet information.

Should I start a different thread asking this question?

Thanks,

Jan

Husband is out in the car waiting for me to get offline...lol!


----------



## Cosmosmom

I am very sorry for the loss of your dog .. I know how hard that can be .. Even if the dog was older it does not make it any easier .. I was devasated when I lost my German Shorthair .
Hopefully you will find what you want soon .. a little snuggle bunny ..


----------



## Leslie

Jan~ We had a sheltie for 14 yrs. She was the best! However, she'd hump our other dog once in awhile. I can understand the concern w/a male humping. However, we've owned 2 females (one sheltie and one havanese) who were humpers, and a male mutt who never humped in his entire 17 yrs., he also always squatted to pee and never marked inside or out. So, it just goes to show, you never know!

I'd keep an open mind and look for personality and temperment!

BTW :welcome:


----------



## Cosmosmom

Asta was quite the little humper - he even had his girlfriend ( a stuffed Dog) Tulip is a little humper as well - not that often but she does it to her Mom for attention . Cosmo has his moments as does Ahnold but it is nothing like Asta . He loved his Muffin !!


----------



## JanB

Cosmosmom said:


> I am very sorry for the loss of your dog .. I know how hard that can be .. Even if the dog was older it does not make it any easier .. I was devasated when I lost my German Shorthair .
> Hopefully you will find what you want soon .. a little snuggle bunny ..


Thank you; you are so right. Regardless of the circumstances, the loss hurts.

Leslie, I see quite a few Sheltie owners (or previous owners are here). Interesting. One breeder I spoke to says she sees a lot of Sheltie owners looking for a Havanese. We must all be looking for that sweet temperament and beautiful coat in a different package 

CosmosMom, I had a little boy dog when I was a child who loved to hump my fuzzy houseslippers. It was love at first sight, lol!


----------



## Havtahava

PPM is one of those things that hasn't been shown to be a problem in Havanese yet, but I don't know enough about it to be comfortable with having it in my breeding dogs. I did a bunch of reading on it a couple of months ago and it is a problem in some breeds. It is not common in Havanese and I am not aware of any dogs with PPM getting cataracts later. If you do a search for it through Google, you will find a couple of pages of information on it, including one on the CERF (vmdb.com) site.


----------



## Tom King

I've never heard of ppm in Havanese. Maybe she has a later CERF test from another testing doctor. We had to do that with one of ours because we made the mistake of going to a new vet for the CERF test who evidently had an agenda against breeders. Once you get something turned in, even if incorrect, it's about impossible to get it corrected. 

Without an updated and good test, I'd walk.


----------



## marjrc

Jan, I can't help but get hungry whenever I see that site or read the names of their pups here in this thread. Wonder why??? Almond Joy, Bubblegum, Kit Kat ........... LOL Yummmmmmm!


----------



## Havtahava

With Halloween right around the corner, I think I have all those things sitting right by the front door, Marj! :laugh:

In regard to PPM, here are some comments from breeders on a discussion we had in mid-September.

From an Oregon breeder: "Iris to Iris PPMs are caused when some of the tissue in the eyes does not go away like it is supposed to shortly after the puppy is born. Although it is an issue in some breeds, the iris to iris ones in Havanese are not considered a problem. I have one with it, the optometrist said not to worry about it - she has never produced it in her puppies or grand puppies (only one litter of them, though). She was the first in her line to have it appear and it would seem that she is not reproducing it."

A California breeder told me that it has happened in 9 of their dogs, but they CERF clear when older.

The dog I found via CERF results lives in the Northwest and was CERF'd as an adult with PPM still.

Here is the link of info from CERF if anyone wants to read it. http://www.vmdb.org/dx1.html

In addition, the University of Prince Edwards Island has a page of info as well - http://www.upei.ca/cidd/Diseases/ocular disorders/persistent pupillary membrane.htm


----------



## casperkeep

Ok went to the website and I have fallen for Zip....he is soo cute.....I thought that the all white girl i beleve might have been named lollipop was cute......mmmmm...I want to go and see Zip!!!!!!!!!!! Hubby would not be happy with me....his bday is next month...i could give him a little boy....mmm....thinking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:suspicious:


----------



## Julie

All of those pups were cuties!It would be hard to pick...


----------



## JanB

Marj, oh yes, yummy 

And Velcro....I get a great visual...

Kim, thanks for that information, I appreciate it and it does ease my mind somewhat.

Tom, thanks, I've pretty much decided to go with Payasa. There were too many red flags with the other breeder as they don't do the BAER tests on their dogs either. Cute puppies and they may be fine but...I've had a bad experience in the past and am extra cautious so better safe than sorry.

I can't wait till Nov 10th!


----------



## JanB

I just found out Velcro has been sold as well as one of the other younger puppies. Now i have only one girl to "choose". I'm not even sure if that's a good idea...

I don't blame the breeder, she had a buyer visit this evening and take 2 puppies. I'm just sad....


----------



## Thumper

JanB said:


> I just found out Velcro has been sold as well as one of the other younger puppies. Now i have only one girl to "choose". I'm not even sure if that's a good idea...
> 
> I don't blame the breeder, she had a buyer visit this evening and take 2 puppies. I'm just sad....


Oh no  I'm sorry your sad :grouphug: Are you going to go see the little girl left? Who knows...maybe she was meant to be with you! 

It took me months of research and waiting to get a Hav puppy! I know the days are long.

Kara


----------



## JanB

Thanks Kara, Yes i will go see the one little girl left...and you're right, maybe she was just made for us. Provided of course someone doesn't buy her too! With only one I'm not comfortable putting a deposit down to hold her and we can't get there until Nov 10. She won't have a new litter ready to go home for nearly a year.

Meanwhile I'm looking for alternatives. I'm crazy..I had trouble sleeping last night. I guess I'm not into delayed gratification


----------



## Cosmosmom

I am so sorry to hear that you are down to one but maybe Kara is right maybe this is the one for you and it was meant to be ..
November 10th is not that long . I always believe if it is right it will happen .. Just remember holdays can be trying for little ones and you will have a new little one around Thanksgiving .. Cosmo got very sick last Thanksgiving - not from food I was very careful but I think because I had company and there was too much change in his routine ..Trying to please guests and take care of a new puppy can be counterproductive . He was almost 4 months old and I thought he would be fine but he was just always a sensitive little guy .. 
Anyway just food for thought . I have learned do many things from experience . This one was not a fun lesson .


----------



## Missy

JanB said:


> O
> Anyone hear of this breeder in the Indianapolis area:
> http://havinfunhavanese.com


Jan, these are really cute puppies.


----------



## JanB

CosmosMom, I have thought about the holidays and having a fairly new puppy as not being a good mix. But our holiday plans are pretty low key this year and our family is small. I don't work outside the home so thay helps as well with less stress.

I figure if I could have a baby on Dec 4th and survive I can handle a puppy, lol! It was actually one of our best most laid back Christmas's ever because I had the perfect excuse to scale back. So this year I will (hopefully) have a reason to do the same 

Missy, they are adorable with sweet little faces aren't they??


----------



## Leslie

JanB said:


> CosmosMom, I have thought about the holidays and having a fairly new puppy as not being a good mix. But our holiday plans are pretty low key this year and our family is small. I don't work outside the home so thay helps as well with less stress.
> 
> *I figure if I could have a baby on Dec 4th and survive I can handle a puppy*, lol! It was actually one of our best most laid back Christmas's ever because I had the perfect excuse to scale back. So this year I will (hopefully) have a reason to do the same
> 
> Missy, they are adorable with sweet little faces aren't they??


Jan~ I'm w/you on that one. My 2nd child was born on Dec. 18th. Not only did I have a new baby and a 2 yr. old, we were in the midst of a kitchen remodel (I was promised it would be finished before Thanksgiving...long story) The holidays and a new puppy??? Piece of cake! :biggrin1:


----------



## Cosmosmom

No worries .. You go for it . 
I have done it twice . I got Cosmo in September so he was older but still very much a puppy ..
My best story is my son got a puppy for Christmas from his girlfriend on Dec 10th - teenagers .. That is how I got Griffin - my German shorthair - he was 8 weeks but adorable . My husband wanted to send him right back .. I got him to agree to have him stay for the night at least as he had been so sick on the ride to the house He was a wonderful dog but he definetly became my dog . I was the one who did the potty training and the walking at 6 am ..
Then Romeo & Juliet broke up on Valentines Day !!
The good news was Griffin stayed ..


----------



## marjrc

Oh, sorry to hear about two of the pups reserved already. Nov. 10th is a long while if that breeder gets other visitors ready to plop down that deposit. Is there any way you can visit? Can't remember if it was far away and I'm too lazy to read the first post...... lol If you should visit now and decide, then you'd have no problems.

Good luck, no matter where your journey takes you!


----------



## JanB

Marj, I'm in FL until the 7th and the breeder is in Indianapolis, a 3 hr or so drive from my hme in SW IN. No way we can get there before then and without a visit I don't feel comfortable putting down a deposit. I think the other two puppies selling were a surprise...she had someone schedule a visit that day and they left with 2 puppies.

I guess what will be will be. She said she went a long while without inquiries and now she's getting them again....


----------



## casperkeep

I hope that your little one will be there when you go and visit....November 10 is my sister's b-day....let is know how things go for you....I could go and check out the puppy for youI am sure I would not want her:suspicious:Well,it was a thought!!!!!!!!!!!!!!hahahaha


----------



## JanB

Megan, that's an idea...just run down and pick one for me  A perfect one of course, lol!


----------



## casperkeep

But then if it was not the one you wanted then I am stuck with a puppy....mmmmm......not a bad idea.....oh well worth a thought!!!!


----------



## TnTWalter

*Jan....I live in Noblesville....*

I can check them out too.... :biggrin1:

My vet sees Payasa's dogs by the way!! They didn't have dogs available when I was looking so I never went out there but we emailed back and forth. Love their website!

Megan....maybe now we'll have another hav for our next playdate!!! Any interest Jan? eace:


----------



## JanB

Oh yes, definitely! I live about 3 1/2 hrs away from Indy but go up several times a year. I have a friend with a condo up there who has offered it to me whenever i want to spend the night. 

Payasa has a very cute girl still available; she's white with a black face with white markings - and eyebrows! Her pic is not on her website but she e-mailed me. Adorable, she's wagging her tail in the pic so all you see is a blur, lol!

But I'm trying to be open-minded about boys too after hearing all the conversation on the forum about boys. She has one boy available that is not on her website and all the boys on her website except either Trekking and Manning (a buyer will pick one this weekend)

To say I'm excited would be an understatement....


----------



## casperkeep

Hey Trish we will have another one to join our playdate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is soooo cool!!!! Welcome back home!!!!


----------



## casperkeep

Oh Jan I wish you could go this weekend.....I would hold the puppy untill you get home!!!!! I am sooo excited to be able to have more hav friends in Indiana!!!! We will have lots of fun!!!


----------



## casperkeep

My husband has family from Evansville....so when we go and visit we will be coming by for a playdate!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## JanB

It is a small world isn't it? 

My husband is waiting to go to the beach..we'll see if we can accost any more dog owners today, lol!


----------



## TnTWalter

*Me again...*

havinfun havanese is Jennifer Poe if that helps anyone investigate and pm Jan.

Jan, PM me if you want more breeder contacts. There's a breeder I believe in Evansville even but don't know what she may have available.

eace:


----------



## kimoh

We are in SW Ohio, about 2 hrs from Indy. I think we need a midwest playdate. Why should the east and west coasters get to have all the fun.

Kim


----------



## casperkeep

Let start planning one soon before the winter hits us....PM me Kim and maybe we can set somthing up!!!!!


----------



## JanB

BTW, Havin Fun Havanese is Jessica Noe. In speaking with he,r she obviously loves her dogs and puppies dearly but stopped showing when the demands of 4 children overwhelmed her. She also does early spay/neuter which is controversial I believe.

A Midwest play date is a great idea! Provided I have a puppy of course, lol!


----------



## Thumper

Well, if early spay/neuter is bothersome to you, then I would ask her to extend it for you in the contract.

I personally believe in waiting longer, especially with Havanese! But every breeder is different! Some are amenable to special requests/concerns.

Kara


----------



## JanB

Kara, too late, it was done on Th at 8 weeks...


----------



## Thumper

Oh wow! That is VERY early! I thought 6 months was early? I never even knew that vets did that young. I guess I learn something new everyday.

If I dont' show Gucci, I will probably have her spayed around 12-15 months (she's 10 months now)

Kara


----------



## casperkeep

Yeah...we really like her but there was some things that we were a little concerned about......LOVE my breeder where we got Jillee from!!!!!!!!!! She has done the best job ever!!!!


----------



## irnfit

When I worked at the animal shelter, we would get "rescue" pups. At 8 weeks they were already fixed. These pups were usually from the midwest or down south.


----------



## Leeann

kimoh said:


> We are in SW Ohio, about 2 hrs from Indy. I think we need a midwest playdate. Why should the east and west coasters get to have all the fun.
> 
> Kim


Kim, where in OH are you? This east coast girl will be traveling to Indy next June, I will also be in Kettering for a few days with my sister before heading to Indy. Me and Megan are planning on getting together while I am out hopefully more will be able to join in.


----------



## Leeann

Thumperlove said:


> Oh wow! That is VERY early! I thought 6 months was early? I never even knew that vets did that young. I guess I learn something new everyday.
> 
> If I dont' show Gucci, I will probably have her spayed around 12-15 months (she's 10 months now)
> 
> Kara


Ditto Kara, I had no idea they would do it that early.

Jan I think you have to figure out what you feel is best for you on this topic, I feel the same as Kara and like to wait. I know you have a fear of the marking issue so this can come into play as to when your breeder would like to have them fixed. My original plan was to have Monte neutured at 12 months then he started marking over Riley's pee just before he was 8 months, I talked to my breeder and we decided to go forward and he was neutered just before he turned 9 months.


----------



## TnTWalter

lbkar said:


> Kim, where in OH are you? This east coast girl will be traveling to Indy next June, I will also be in Kettering for a few days with my sister before heading to Indy. Me and Megan are planning on getting together while I am out hopefully more will be able to join in.


Waaaaah! Have I been forgotten already??

eace:


----------



## Leeann

TnTWalter said:


> Waaaaah! Have I been forgotten already??
> 
> eace:


Dont worry Trish, we will not let you forget. Also there is an agility trial in Carmel the weekend I come in, I may enter Riley depending on where I am with him at that time, hopefully you can come help cheer him on if we go.


----------



## kimoh

> Kim, where in OH are you? This east coast girl will be traveling to Indy next June, I will also be in Kettering for a few days with my sister before heading to Indy. Me and Megan are planning on getting together while I am out hopefully more will be able to join in.


I am near Cincinnati. Probably about 45 min from Kettering. That would be great if a bunch of us could get together!!!

Kim


----------



## casperkeep

That would be fun....I will start trying to see when we all could get together!!!


----------



## TnTWalter

kimoh said:


> I am near Cincinnati. Probably about 45 min from Kettering. That would be great if a bunch of us could get together!!!
> 
> Kim


We go to Brookville Lake often in the summer....the pics of Winston at the lake are from there!

eace:


----------



## kimoh

> We go to Brookville Lake often in the summer....the pics of Winston at the lake are from there!


Trish,

I have not been out there yet, but it looks really nice. My husband has just taken up fly fishing and he goes out there all the time now. In fact he was just there this morning.

Kim


----------



## ama0722

I may try to go back to Ohio either in the Spring or Fall so keep me posted on when you guys are thinking  

Amanda


----------



## Leeann

Amanda, I am thinking of arriving in Kettering around the 17-18th of June then heading to Indianapolis 19-20th I will also be stopping back in Kettering on my way back to MA
We would love to see you and hopefully the fur kids.


----------

