# Refuses to eat kibble (unless hand fed)



## mina_ (Dec 21, 2021)

My feeding setup for our 14-week old pup is - 3x a day, she gets a portion of mixed cooked food* + kibble.

The problem is that she will lick the plate clean and eat all the cooked food but leave the kibble. If I take the plate in my hands and feed her the kibble one by one piece, she *will* eat it.

I tried:

perfectly mixing in the kibble with the cooked food, but she still leaves it all
blending the kibble to make smaller pieces, didn't work
soaking the kibble to make it softer, didn't work
not hand feeding at all for several days, but she still find enough nutrition in the cooked food so she couldn't care less about the kibble
switching kibble brand - she was interested at first and ate it for a couple of days, and then got bored of the new kibble
coating the kibble in a dog meat paste - still leaves it on the plate unless I hand feed it
The thing that surprises me is that she will eat it perfectly if I hand feed it to her. But if it's on the plate along with the other food, she will leave it.

Now that I'm writing this down, I think maybe the problem is that the kibble always comes along with the other food, so she doesn't see the need to eat it because there is other yummier food there? I was also thinking of feeding one meal exclusively kibble (like breakfast), but I'm worried she will just skip it and then wait for the yummier meal of cooked food.

How can I switch this up so that she finally eats her full kibble daily portion? I would love to feed raw/cooked exclusively but we decided to go down a 50:50 route for now due to finances.

_(*This cooked food is a special dog food service here in Belgium, developed specially by a vet for dogs, to be a bridge between mildly cooked and raw diet. So I'm not cooking these myself. We're now on the 50:50 subscription where we're supposed to supplement half of her daily portions with kibble)_


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Sundance used to do this with freeze dried raw and kibble. I did have to mix it in like you mentioned, and Sundance still managed to eat around it. It helped to lightly moisten it, because otherwise he would actually remove the kibble from the bowl! I knew he liked the kibble, he just loved the freeze dried portion so much. When he was getting 3 meals a day he did it for slightly longer (after any food adjustments) but always stopped after a week or two. Once he was getting 2 meals a day he only did it for a few days. There was one time when I cut back on the freeze dried and added it in more slowly but once I realized it was a pattern for him to do it with any food change and he would come around on his own I didn’t bother with that. As an adult if I add anything special to his meal (bits of chicken or egg) I still place it beneath his food instead of actually “topping” it. He eats it all now, though.

I would mix and moisten the food as you have been and pick it up after 15 minutes. I think she will come around in a couple of days. It may take her a little longer if she is the testing type and eats just a few bites, but it won’t hurt her. Even if you want to switch to a separate kibble meal and she skips it hoping for the other food, it’s unlikely to last many days once she learns the routine of being offered the kibble at each meal. I personally wouldn’t hand feed at this point. If it goes on for weeks and the vet is concerned about her growth then maybe you can hand feed the kibble as part of her training at a separate time during the day.

Sundance also “skins” blueberries. Somehow he eats the juicy center and leaves the outside on the floor!


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## mina_ (Dec 21, 2021)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Sundance used to do this with freeze dried raw and kibble. I did have to mix it in like you mentioned, and Sundance still managed to eat around it. It helped to lightly moisten it, because otherwise he would actually remove the kibble from the bowl! I knew he liked the kibble, he just loved the freeze dried portion so much. When he was getting 3 meals a day he did it for slightly longer (after any food adjustments) but always stopped after a week or two. Once he was getting 2 meals a day he only did it for a few days. There was one time when I cut back on the freeze dried and added it in more slowly but once I realized it was a pattern for him to do it with any food change and he would come around on his own I didn’t bother with that. As an adult if I add anything special to his meal (bits of chicken or egg) I still place it beneath his food instead of actually “topping” it. He eats it all now, though.
> 
> I would mix and moisten the food as you have been and pick it up after 15 minutes. I think she will come around in a couple of days. It may take her a little longer if she is the testing type and eats just a few bites, but it won’t hurt her. Even if you want to switch to a separate kibble meal and she skips it hoping for the other food, it’s unlikely to last many days once she learns the routine of being offered the kibble at each meal. I personally wouldn’t hand feed at this point. If it goes on for weeks and the vet is concerned about her growth then maybe you can hand feed the kibble as part of her training at a separate time during the day.
> 
> Sundance also “skins” blueberries. Somehow he eats the juicy center and leaves the outside on the floor!


Thanks for sharing your experience! She has been doing it for a month now, so I'm concerned she has just decided that she doesn't need the kibble, and that the other food is enough for her. Her weight has been progressing really well, on the other hand, but I'm still worried she won't get the proper nutrition if she continues refusing to eat as much as she has been.

I can still try to stop hand feeding her completely and see if that eventually makes a difference.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Well, when you look at it from her perspective, why would she want to eat corn flakes, when there is filet mignon on her plate! LOL!

I also feed kibble and a commercial cooked fresh frozen diet (also developed by a board certified veterinary nutritionist). I would love to feed ONLY this food, but it would be expensive for 4 dogs. It is also just “easy” to feed them “dry cereal” for breakfast. So that’s what we do! We feed an excellent quality kibble for breakfast, and they get their fresh frozen (thawed, of course!) for dinner! We have no complaints! Even Ducky has been eating this combination since he was about 10 weeks old. I think, if she’s hungry, and has no other option, she will eat her kibble!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

And I agree with Eva E1izabeth… the hand feeding is just setting up picky, bad habits. I would NOT do that with a healthy puppy Unless you want to continue it for life! (And I DO know people who have backed themselves into that corner!!!)


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## mina_ (Dec 21, 2021)

krandall said:


> Well, when you look at it from her perspective, why would she want to eat corn flakes, when there is filet mignon on her plate! LOL!
> 
> I also feed kibble and a commercial cooked fresh frozen diet (also developed by a board certified veterinary nutritionist). I would love to feed ONLY this food, but it would be expensive for 4 dogs. It is also just “easy” to feed them “dry cereal” for breakfast. So that’s what we do! We feed an excellent quality kibble for breakfast, and they get their fresh frozen (thawed, of course!) for dinner! We have no complaints! Even Ducky has been eating this combination since he was about 10 weeks old. I think, if she’s hungry, and has no other option, she will eat her kibble!


Haha that's a great description lol. 

That sounds like a plan! I think I'll switch to kibble-only meal(s). How do you think this could work out with 3 meals a day? Kibble for breakfast and lunch, and then cooked for dinner? Or kibble only for breakfast and cooked for the other two meals? Still unsure about that part. 🤔


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mina_ said:


> Haha that's a great description lol.
> 
> That sounds like a plan! I think I'll switch to kibble-only meal(s). How do you think this could work out with 3 meals a day? Kibble for breakfast and lunch, and then cooked for dinner? Or kibble only for breakfast and cooked for the other two meals? Still unsure about that part. 🤔


I think whichever way works best for you! Don't over-think it!


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## mina_ (Dec 21, 2021)

Okay, will do!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mina_ said:


> Okay, will do!


And... If she were mine, and she was still being picky, I might do ONLY kibble for a few days until she caved. Then come back in with the fresh, once she's found out that she HAS to eat her kibble. Make the fresh a "reward" for eating the kibble! 

I suspect, as she gets a little bigger, this will bel see of a problem. She will have more energy, be using more calories both growing and moving around, and you will eventually drop her lunch meal. She will be hungry enough for BOTH meals that she will "eat like a dog"!


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## mina_ (Dec 21, 2021)

krandall said:


> And... If she were mine, and she was still being picky, I might do ONLY kibble for a few days until she caved. Then come back in with the fresh, once she's found out that she HAS to eat her kibble. Make the fresh a "reward" for eating the kibble!
> 
> I suspect, as she gets a little bigger, this will bel see of a problem. She will have more energy, be using more calories both growing and moving around, and you will eventually drop her lunch meal. She will be hungry enough for BOTH meals that she will "eat like a dog"!


I took your advice to heart and offered her only kibble today. She refused every single meal so she didn't eat at all today. I just hope she won't keep this up for long. 😞


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

mina_ said:


> I took your advice to heart and offered her only kibble today. She refused every single meal so she didn't eat at all today. I just hope she won't keep this up for long. 😞


There is nothing that says you have to feed kibble. I switched from kibble to raw. The dogs no longer wanted kibble, but that was okay with me. Maybe that means my dogs are picky or maybe they know what is best for them. It didn’t really matter to me if they were picky or if they were “playing“ me. I guess if you really want them to eat kibble you may have to wait it out. I think it depends on what you want to feed.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> There is nothing that says you have to feed kibble. I switched from kibble to raw. The dogs no longer wanted kibble, but that was okay with me. Maybe that means my dogs are picky or maybe they know what is best for them. It didn’t really matter to me if they were picky or if they were “playing“ me. I guess if you really want them to eat kibble you may have to wait it out. I think it depends on what you want to feed.


This is absolutely true if you WANT to change. I can't afford to feed 4 dogs frozen fresh!


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

mina_ said:


> I took your advice to heart and offered her only kibble today. She refused every single meal so she didn't eat at all today. I just hope she won't keep this up for long. 😞


Don't worry about it. When she gets hungry enough she will eat the kibble. It may take a couple of days. Don't hand feed her. Leave it in her bowl for 10 minutes or so and then pick the bowl up with anything that's left.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> This is absolutely true if you WANT to change. I can't afford to feed 4 dogs frozen fresh!


Some people I know have tried to switch their dogs to a raw diet and the dogs turned up their noses. I guess it goes both ways. They have had to transition slowly. Starving a dog into submission is probably not that bad but for cats or ferrets it can be a problem health wise. Dogs seem to do fine missing several meals. I wonder if mixing the kibble some way so the dog cannot pick it out might work, such as pulverizing it! I am not sure.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Some people I know have tried to switch their dogs to a raw diet and the dogs turned up their noses. I guess it goes both ways. They have had to transition slowly. Starving a dog into submission is probably not that bad but for cats or ferrets it can be a problem health wise. Dogs seem to do fine missing several meals. I wonder if mixing the kibble some way so the dog cannot pick it out might work, such as pulverizing it! I am not sure.


Dogs are scavengers. They are designed to go for long periods without food then to eat a lot. The dog will do FINE missing a few meals. S/he will NOT starve she is being offered food.  And considering the GARBAGE they will WILLINGLY eat… turning their nose up at good quality kibble is her own choice. And she is training her owner rather than vice versa.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I agree that you don’t have to stick with kibble or fresh, you could consider something in between or other options within your budget. I do think it’s important to work through the behavioral aspect first. It isn’t punishing, and it is behavioral at this point. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with changing to a food a dog likes better that meets the family’s needs, even if it’s changing proteins or a different brand of kibble, but if it’s directly in response to refusing food hoping for something better, it does reinforce the behavior. For some dogs, changing food as a reaction may never be an issue, but for personalities that may be picky, or like Sundance, who is obsessed with food, I think there’s a high risk of creating food behaviors, especially with a smart puppy. I didn’t change food super often but it was still an issue for Sundance each time, and he liked his kibble. I also know it would be easy for his personality to slide into bad food habits. 

Once she’s eating the kibble, maybe mix in a smaller amount of the “special” food for a few days and go from there.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

My dogs are not picky and will eat anything. However, I do have a picky cat. My cat eats Stella and Chewy’s freeze dried raw, however he would only eat the rabbit. I wanted him to eat different proteins but he refused. So what I did was mix a tiny tiny small amount of the new protein with the rabbit that he liked. I then gradually increased the new protein and reduced the rabbit. Now he eats all the proteins. I wonder if something like this might help. In order to prevent the dog from picking out the kibble you could wrap it in the food she likes. Starving a dog into submission may work but that is not good for a cat so I had to get creative.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> My dogs are not picky and will eat anything. However, I do have a picky cat. My cat eats Stella and Chewy’s freeze dried raw, however he would only eat the rabbit. I wanted him to eat different proteins but he refused. So what I did was mix a tiny tiny small amount of the new protein with the rabbit that he liked. I then gradually increased the new protein and reduced the rabbit. Now he eats all the proteins. I wonder if something like this might help. In order to prevent the dog from picking out the kibble you could wrap it in the food she likes. Starving a dog into submission may work but that is not good for a cat so I had to get creative.


Cats are different, for sure. First, they are obligate carnivores. Second… they are cats. I have had two now with chronic renal fai as they aged. One, I was able to play with her home made renal diet (WAY before there were commercial diets! The commercial diets are actually MORE palatable!!!) and eventually get her to eat it, though it contained more protein than the vet really wanted her eating. With our more recent kitty, when our 7 lb, geriatric kitty lost a lb and a half, because she was eating SO little of the kidney diet, I made the decision that I would rather have her die of kidney failure than starvation, and put her back on her regular food. The vet, fortunately, agreed with my decision! Have to pick your battles with cats. They are NOT the same critters as dogs!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> Cats are different, for sure. First, they are obligate carnivores. Second… they are cats. I have had two now with chronic renal fai as they aged. One, I was able to play with her home made renal diet (WAY before there were commercial diets! The commercial diets are actually MORE palatable!!!) and eventually get her to eat it, though it contained more protein than the vet really wanted her eating. With our more recent kitty, when our 7 lb, geriatric kitty lost a lb and a half, because she was eating SO little of the kidney diet, I made the decision that I would rather have her die of kidney failure than starvation, and put her back on her regular food. The vet, fortunately, agreed with my decision! Have to pick your battles with cats. They are NOT the same critters as dogs!


Cats are definitely different critters, but as far as transitioning to different foods I think some of the same techniques can work for dogs if the owner chooses to go that route.

My current cat has never eaten kibble and he is the only cat I have had who did not eventually get kidney disease. I did have to transition him from canned to raw. At first I fed him homemade raw but he is now 17 and prefers Stella and Chewys freeze dried. I like it too because I can hydrate small amounts at a time so less waste. He prefers many small meals throughout the day. My previous cats have all gotten kidney failure as they got older and would never eat the prescription food. So I just fed them regular food which I also found preferable to starvation. The problem with kidney failure is not too much protein anyway…it is too much phosphorus…so not sure these prescription kidney diets make much sense. And they make no sense at all if an animal will not eat it. The cats with kidney disease on regular food lived to at least 17 and did not appear to be suffering until near the very end.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Cats are definitely different critters, but as far as transitioning to different foods I think some of the same techniques can work for dogs if the owner chooses to go that route.
> 
> My current cat has never eaten kibble and he is the only cat I have had who did not eventually get kidney disease. I did have to transition him from canned to raw. At first I fed him homemade raw but he is now 17 and prefers Stella and Chewys freeze dried. I like it too because I can hydrate small amounts at a time so less waste. He prefers many small meals throughout the day. My previous cats have all gotten kidney failure as they got older and would never eat the prescription food. So I just fed them regular food which I also found preferable to starvation. The problem with kidney failure is not too much protein anyway…it is too much phosphorus…so not sure these prescription kidney diets make much sense. And they make no sense at all if an animal will not eat it. The cats with kidney disease on regular food lived to at least 17 and did not appear to be suffering until near the very end.


Yes, both of my kidney failure cats lived past 17, and both died of cardiomyopathy, indirectly a result of the kidney failure... one threw a clot that cause her to become paralyzed (a common occurrence at the end in these cats), and the other most likely had a stroke, (so also a clot, just went to her brain instead)and had to be eutnhanized. But her heart had changed so much in her last week of life that the vet said she would not have lasted much longer in any case. Cats certainly CAN live longer... I have a friend with a 22 year old now, but 17 is a good ripe old age. 

The first one I got when I was in High School, and NOBODY fed cats anything but kibble then... canned food was a "treat". And Snowbelle was a rescue kitty. We tried VERY hard to get her to eat other things and she refused to eat ANYTHING but kibble. She would ONLY eat "crunchy things". She would even refuse tunafish and the juice from the tuna can! What self respecting cat does that?!?! I suspect it was all she had known before coming to us. She was SO insistent about this that when she caught mice, and she was a GREAT mouser until she got very old, she ONLY ate the heads. We presume this was because that was the "crunchy part". LOL! These were the only cats we've ever had with kidney diseases and we've had a lot of cats! 

Back to dogs, UNLIKE cats, at least _I_ have never heard of a dog who is HEALTHY, who won't cave and eat when they are hungry enough. And again, we are not talking about making them eat cardboard, or poor quality food. We are talking about these (many) spoiled Havanese who are talking their owners into changing their food every other week and feeding them off bone china plates orphaned feeding them. I am not at ALL sure that those dogs would keep eating even if they were being offered the finest raw. In fact, I KNOW some of them wouldn't, because I've helped some people with Havanese who were feeding raw, and the dog was still doing this nonsense. Many small breed dogs are over-fed, and frankly, spoiled. Their owners worry about them too much, and they are too smart for their own good. Their owners are letting the dog train THEM, and they are calling the shots around the food dish. If the owner won't change the dynamic, this can be a problem for life. 

REGARDLESS of what the food is, if the owner won't become hard line about how and when the dog eats, the dog is going to become the leader in this regard. It really has nothing to do with what is being fed. They can always change to something different or better later.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> Yes, both of my kidney failure cats lived past 17, and both died of cardiomyopathy, indirectly a result of the kidney failure... one threw a clot that cause her to become paralyzed (a common occurrence at the end in these cats), and the other most likely had a stroke, (so also a clot, just went to her brain instead)and had to be eutnhanized. But her heart had changed so much in her last week of life that the vet said she would not have lasted much longer in any case. Cats certainly CAN live longer... I have a friend with a 22 year old now, but 17 is a good ripe old age.
> 
> The first one I got when I was in High School, and NOBODY fed cats anything but kibble then... canned food was a "treat". And Snowbelle was a rescue kitty. We tried VERY hard to get her to eat other things and she refused to eat ANYTHING but kibble. She would ONLY eat "crunchy things". She would even refuse tunafish and the juice from the tuna can! What self respecting cat does that?!?! I suspect it was all she had known before coming to us. She was SO insistent about this that when she caught mice, and she was a GREAT mouser until she got very old, she ONLY ate the heads. We presume this was because that was the "crunchy part". LOL! These were the only cats we've ever had with kidney diseases and we've had a lot of cats!
> 
> ...


I can definitely relate to a cat who would only eat kibble. Some people want to switch to cats to canned but the cat will have no part of it. it’s almost like they are addicted to it. One of mine was super mule headed but I finally got her to eat canned. I could never convert her to raw. But some of them will not cave no matter what. I agree. Most dogs are pampered with their two meals a day and can definitely stand to miss a few meals. I cannot relate to the picky dog thing very well since mine are so not picky. But people often post about it so I guess it is fairly common.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

mudpuppymama said:


> Starving a dog into submission may work but that is not good for a cat so I had to get creative.


I completely get what you’re saying, but I really don’t see it as a punishing owner starving their dog, from a biological and behavioral standpoint. The whole idea is that they are able to skip more meals without the negative consequences or symptoms and that is why they are able to hold out, hoping for something better, and for some that’s even where the behavior stems f. Still, if someone was concerned for a medical reason, the approach could probably be adjusted slightly, but I don’t think that’s the case 90% of the time.


I’m not one to withhold food, I worked with teens with eating disorders so I don’t use food as discipline with my kids and I don’t force them to eat food they don’t like, no clean plate rules. I truly don’t think this teaching is punishing to Havanese, I think they see it differently, and don’t feel they are being punished unless they sense the person is frustrated and treating it as such. Most of the puppies that do it seem to be super smart, and are really just exploring their limits.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I completely get what you’re saying, but I really don’t see it as a punishing owner starving their dog, from a biological and behavioral standpoint. The whole idea is that they are able to skip more meals without the negative consequences or symptoms and that is why they are able to hold out, hoping for something better, and for some that’s even where the behavior stems f. Still, if someone was concerned for a medical reason, the approach could probably be adjusted slightly, but I don’t think that’s the case 90% of the time.
> 
> 
> I’m not one to withhold food, I worked with teens with eating disorders so I don’t use food as discipline with my kids and I don’t force them to eat food they don’t like, no clean plate rules. I truly don’t think this teaching is punishing to Havanese, I think they see it differently, and don’t feel they are being punished unless they sense the person is frustrated and treating it as such. Most of the puppies that do it seem to be super smart, and are really just exploring their limits.


What I was trying to say that it is fine for a dog to miss a few meals but not so with cats so I had to find other ways to get my cat to eat what I wanted him to eat. I did not mean to imply that withholding food is punishment. I personally derive great joy from watching my dogs enjoy their food and am willing to take their opinions into consideration. however I assume if a dog is really picky they might constantly want something different which is not a good thing. That I definitely could not take, so if mine did this they would be missing a few meals as well.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I get what you’re saying. I haven’t had cats, how did you get her to eat what you wanted knowing they can’t miss meals the same way?


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I get what you’re saying. I haven’t had cats, how did you get her to eat what you wanted knowing they can’t miss meals the same way?


You mix very tiny tiny amounts of the food you are trying to transition them to with a food they really like. The key is to go slow. For example, I recently did this with my cat who would only eat Stella and Chewy’s freeze dried rabbit. I wanted him to eat other proteins but he would always refuse them. So I would mix a super tiny amount of turkey for example with the rabbit. Now he eats turkey and duck as well as the rabbit. However, you have to go very slow. Another technique is to find a topper they like and sprinkle it on the new food. Then gradually reduce the amount of topper. My one cat was really resistant when I tried ti get her to switch from kibble to canned. With her I resorted to some very low quality stinky canned food which she seemed to like. Once she would eat that, I raised the bar and started mixing in more high quality canned food. Once I switched my cats to canned I tried to switch them to raw…very slowly. One cat would never move past canned but at least she was no longer on kibble. IMO kibble is dangerous for cats as they do not have a natural thirst and tend to not drink the amount of water necessary when feeding kibble. This contributes to kidney disease which they are all notorious for.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> I can definitely relate to a cat who would only eat kibble. Some people want to switch to cats to canned but the cat will have no part of it. it’s almost like they are addicted to it. One of mine was super mule headed but I finally got her to eat canned. I could never convert her to raw. But some of them will not cave no matter what. I agree. Most dogs are pampered with their two meals a day and can definitely stand to miss a few meals. I cannot relate to the picky dog thing very well since mine are so not picky. But people often post about it so I guess it is fairly common.


It’s UNBELIEVABLY common! And owner-caused, because they EITHER get worried when the puppy skips a meal or two, OR they are just plain feeding their fat dog too much.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I completely get what you’re saying, but I really don’t see it as a punishing owner starving their dog, from a biological and behavioral standpoint. The whole idea is that they are able to skip more meals without the negative consequences or symptoms and that is why they are able to hold out, hoping for something better, and for some that’s even where the behavior stems f. Still, if someone was concerned for a medical reason, the approach could probably be adjusted slightly, but I don’t think that’s the case 90% of the time.
> 
> 
> I’m not one to withhold food, I worked with teens with eating disorders so I don’t use food as discipline with my kids and I don’t force them to eat food they don’t like, no clean plate rules. I truly don’t think this teaching is punishing to Havanese, I think they see it differently, and don’t feel they are being punished unless they sense the person is frustrated and treating it as such. Most of the puppies that do it seem to be super smart, and are really just exploring their limits.


Exactly! I would NEVER EVER suggest this for children. And other animals need to be handled species appropriately. When I give this TRAINING advice, it is NOT punishment, it is TRAINING (and mostly OWNER training, because this IS how DOGS eat…) I ALWAYS preface it by saying that it is for HEALTHY dogs and puppies. If the dog is ill, that is a completely different story. But the vast majority of “picky Havanese” we hear about on the forum are either spoiled or overfed or both.

Plus, we have never suggested withholding food. We have ALWAYS suggested putting down perfectly healthy food, USUALLY a food the dog has happily eaten in the past and has now decided they no longer want, and then picking it up after a reasonable period of time. The dog is making the choice whether to eat during that period of time or not. There really is NO “starving” involved in this unless it is “self induced”.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

mudpuppymama said:


> What I was trying to say that it is fine for a dog to miss a few meals but not so with cats so I had to find other ways to get my cat to eat what I wanted him to eat. I did not mean to imply that withholding food is punishment. I personally derive great joy from watching my dogs enjoy their food and am willing to take their opinions into consideration. however I assume if a dog is really picky they might constantly want something different which is not a good thing. That I definitely could not take, so if mine did this they would be missing a few meals as well.


I didn’t think you were implying that, it was more that I wondered if I was coming across as punishing. I wouldn’t want to give that impression, or for someone else reading to think that’s what I was advocating


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

mudpuppymama said:


> You mix very tiny tiny amounts of the food you are trying to transition them to with a food they really like. The key is to go slow. For example, I recently did this with my cat who would only eat Stella and Chewy’s freeze dried rabbit. I wanted him to eat other proteins but he would always refuse them. So I would mix a super tiny amount of turkey for example with the rabbit. Now he eats turkey and duck as well as the rabbit. However, you have to go very slow. Another technique is to find a topper they like and sprinkle it on the new food. Then gradually reduce the amount of topper. My one cat was really resistant when I tried ti get her to switch from kibble to canned. With her I resorted to some very low quality stinky canned food which she seemed to like. Once she would eat that, I raised the bar and started mixing in more high quality canned food. Once I switched my cats to canned I tried to switch them to raw…very slowly. One cat would never move past canned but at least she was no longer on kibble. IMO kibble is dangerous for cats as they do not have a natural thirst and tend to not drink the amount of water necessary when feeding kibble. This contributes to kidney disease which they are all notorious for.


I think that could definitely work for some dogs, too, maybe in the case of a medical concern. Not sure about Sundance, though. I think he might see it as a game, to figure out ways to get the best bits. I wonder if he’d revolt as the portions reverse, lol. He seems to have a sixth sense about food. Of course, I could probably mix it better, but that’s a lot of work! You are great about having patience, though, because I can imagine it does take time and persistence to make the gradual change.

I hope your cat is doing okay, and you are getting some time with her.


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## mina_ (Dec 21, 2021)

I'm just now seeing the massive amount of replies, thanks to everyone who chimed in!

The thing is, our puppy has come from a very bad breeder who was free-feeding them. So not only does she have no strong association with food as reward (training is difficult), but also she still thinks food is here for her whenever she wants it to be. I've tried going slowly, and mixing the cooked food ever so slightly with kibble (so like a 90:10 ratio) and she still leaves all her kibble. There is nothing wrong with the kibble if I hand feed it to her, so this is just another behavioral thing among many other behavioral issues stemming from her breeder.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

mina_ said:


> so this is just another behavioral thing among many other behavioral issues stemming from her breeder.


I agree with you. But she appears to be a smart little puppy that is food motivated. As a result, you can train this out of her with patience and persistence using positive reinforcement.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I think that could definitely work for some dogs, too, maybe in the case of a medical concern. Not sure about Sundance, though. I think he might see it as a game, to figure out ways to get the best bits. I wonder if he’d revolt as the portions reverse, lol. He seems to have a sixth sense about food. Of course, I could probably mix it better, but that’s a lot of work! You are great about having patience, though, because I can imagine it does take time and persistence to make the gradual change.
> 
> I hope your cat is doing okay, and you are getting some time with her.


Cats definitely require more patience with regard to getting them to eat what you want, especially if they are used to kibble! I swear there is something addicting about kibble and cats. Thanks for thinking of my cat. He is actually doing very well so far. He is eating very well…loves the Stella and Chewy’s freeze dried raw which is so convenient since I can hydrate small amounts at a time. We are watching for signs of pain and I know animals can hide it, but I don’t think it is time for him to go yet.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Cats definitely require more patience with regard to getting them to eat what you want, especially if they are used to kibble! I swear there is something addicting about kibble and cats. Thanks for thinking of my cat. He is actually doing very well so far. He is eating very well…loves the Stella and Chewy’s freeze dried raw which is so convenient since I can hydrate small amounts at a time. We are watching for signs of pain and I know animals can hide it, but I don’t think it is time for him to go yet.


I don’t think I even knew about S&C for cats when Snowbelle was alive. I wonder if she would have eaten that. Ah well! We do better when we know better. And 17 isn’t a bad life for a cat!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> I don’t think I even knew about S&C for cats when Snowbelle was alive. I wonder if she would have eaten that. Ah well! We do better when we know better. And 17 isn’t a bad life for a cat!
> View attachment 176986


I didn’t know this either but recently watched a YouTube on quality food to feed to picky cats. They said cats tend to love the Stella and Chewys freeze dried rabbit. And it was definitely true for my cat!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Actually my cat is the picky one…not my dogs! My dogs have never refused a meal in their 13 year lives. However, some dogs actually self regulate which is a good thing. If a dog randomly turns up their nose at the same food it could be they are just not hungry. Not sure about a puppy, but for an adult dog it is sometimes helpful to switch to feeding once per day.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

THAT is when you need to nip the “Picky Puppy Behavior” in the bud. Because THAT is exactly what is going on there. And if you don’t you will be manipulated for the life of the dog…


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Actually my cat is the picky one…not my dogs! My dogs have never refused a meal in their 13 year lives. However, some dogs actually self regulate which is a good thing. If a dog randomly turns up their nose at the same food it could be they are just not hungry. Not sure about a puppy, but for an adult dog it is sometimes helpful to switch to feeding once per day.


Switching to feeding a young puppy once a day is not a good idea. Especially a small breed puppy. They need a constant supply of nutrients to build their bodies. If we didn’t see this behavior SO often, I would feel differently. But this is STANDARD picky puppy stuff. Fix it quickly and be done with it, or suffer with it for a LONG time. i don’t care which food you decide to feed, good quality kiddble, canned, Nom Nom or commercial raw. But put your foot down and don’t give the puppy options. Once they start to eat, MOST dogs look FORWARD to their twice a day meals.


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## mina_ (Dec 21, 2021)

I'm right there with you regarding being scared. My pup is now going into her 3rd day of refusing kibble (again, she will eat it out of my hand, but not presented on a plate or in a bowl), and I'm getting nervous.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> Switching to feeding a young puppy once a day is not a good idea. Especially a small breed puppy. They need a constant supply of nutrients to build their bodies. If we didn’t see this behavior SO often, I would feel differently. But this is STANDARD picky puppy stuff. Fix it quickly and be done with it, or suffer with it for a LONG time. i don’t care which food you decide to feed, good quality kiddble, canned, Nom Nom or commercial raw. But put your foot down and don’t give the puppy options. Once they start to eat, MOST dogs look FORWARD to their twice a day meals.


I agree. I was thinking more of adult dogs who could be perpetually picky or maybe just want to eat once a day. Just wondering though if the tough love technique results in puppies missing several meals. Hopefully they learn quickly.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I think I’m confused, if she’s eating out of your hand, she’s not missing meals?


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

mina_ said:


> I'm right there with you regarding being scared. My pup is now going into her 3rd day of refusing kibble (again, she will eat it out of my hand, but not presented on a plate or in a bowl), and I'm getting nervous.


What kind of bowl do you feed the kibble in? Some dogs do not like their whiskers touching the sides of the bowl. This is actually more of a cat thing but I have heard of it in dogs. Can you try putting the kibble on a plate or some kind of wide bowl where her whiskers do not touch the sides? If she is eating kibble from your hand she will eat it.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Has your dog been checked for any medical or dental conditions? Does she seem health and energetic? After two days, Mia would be gnawing my legs off.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ALL Havanese are small breed puppies. Run it by your vet, and see what they have to say. Most are in favor of teaching healthy puppies good eating habits. If he thinksshe is too young to have this show-down, maybe you will need to put it off. But the longer you allow you to manipulate the situation, the harder it will be to stop the behavior later.


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## mina_ (Dec 21, 2021)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I think I’m confused, if she’s eating out of your hand, she’s not missing meals?


It's all explained in my very first post.  I'm currently not hand feeding and she's been missing every meal so far.


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## mina_ (Dec 21, 2021)

mudpuppymama said:


> What kind of bowl do you feed the kibble in? Some dogs do not like their whiskers touching the sides of the bowl. This is actually more of a cat thing but I have heard of it in dogs. Can you try putting the kibble on a plate or some kind of wide bowl where her whiskers do not touch the sides? If she is eating kibble from your hand she will eat it.


I've tried every kind of bowl and plate in my house. It's not a matter of the type of container sadly (I wish it was!). She gets it on a plate, so whiskers don't touch anything. But this is interesting, hope it helps someone else maybe!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

mina_ said:


> It's all explained in my very first post.  I'm currently not hand feeding and she's been missing every meal so far.


I misunderstood your reply about being nervous, I thought you meant in the last 3 days she hasn’t eaten kibble, but has eaten it out of your hand. Now I see you were talking about before  

Is she pooping? I think I’d take her to the vet if she’s not eating soon. She could get by on just a few bites for days, which is one of their best tricks  But if she’s not eating all all, the vet can rule out or identify any medical issues that may affect her appetite. Giving the vet all of the info you mentioned about her background might be helpful. You might be recommended a similar approach, but hopefully you’ll have some help making sure she’s growing properly, etc.


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## mina_ (Dec 21, 2021)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I misunderstood your reply about being nervous, I thought you meant in the last 3 days she hasn’t eaten kibble, but has eaten it out of your hand. Now I see you were talking about before
> 
> Is she pooping? I think I’d take her to the vet if she’s not eating soon. She could get by on just a few bites for days, which is one of their best tricks  But if she’s not eating all all, the vet can rule out or identify any medical issues that may affect her appetite. Giving the vet all of the info you mentioned about her background might be helpful. You might be recommended a similar approach, but hopefully you’ll have some help making sure she’s growing properly, etc.


All good, thanks so much for trying to solve this along with everyone else, much appreciated!

She is pooping, yes! Just like you said, she also does take a few bites of her kibble, but maybe one or max two pieces at a time, and then abandons it. I've already spoken to the vet about it and she confirmed there are no medical issues. She also said basically the same thing as I've been hearing here on the forum - to leave it down for 15mins and take it away, and eventually she'll understand. I guess it's just a matter of waiting her out, but based on everything I've read here, she should have already caved.


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## NotAMuggle (Dec 4, 2020)

mina_ said:


> All good, thanks so much for trying to solve this along with everyone else, much appreciated!
> 
> She is pooping, yes! Just like you said, she also does take a few bites of her kibble, but maybe one or max two pieces at a time, and then abandons it. I've already spoken to the vet about it and she confirmed there are no medical issues. She also said basically the same thing as I've been hearing here on the forum - to leave it down for 15mins and take it away, and eventually she'll understand. I guess it's just a matter of waiting her out, but based on everything I've read here, she should have already caved.


Piper played this game with me too as a younger puppy. Since she was medically healthy I did the tough love route after awhile. Make sure you are giving her ZERO treats (even training treats). Ensure EVERYONE in teh house is on board too (cant have anyone secretly slipping her a treat during this time). Piper didn't go as long as three days, but she did even make herself yellow hunger bile puke after 2-3 skipped meals. That almost made me waver, but i dug my heels in (as unplesant a task as this is) and lo and behold she eventually caved and gobbled up her next meal. Now as a teenager? young adult? (13 months) she will usually eat both meals of dry food a day but once or twice a week may skip one of the two. I don't stress it - she is a healthy weight and will eat when she's hungry enough.

Have you tried a food puzzle?









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Buy Nina Ottosson by Outward Hound Brick Puzzle Game Dog Toy at Chewy.com. FREE shipping and the BEST customer service!




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^That one is Piper's absolute favorite. A few times a week I'll put her kibble in there and she loooves sniffing out where it is and having to paw and nose all the compartments open. I never thought she'd be interested in it if i filled it with her "boring" kibble instead of treats, but she truly is!


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## mina_ (Dec 21, 2021)

NotAMuggle said:


> Have you tried a food puzzle?


I have tried just about everything. Not the Nina Ottosson ones, but I invested in a zogoflex, lickimats and few other puzzles from the local pet shop. She has an extremely low frustration threshold and doesn't want to work for the food, even if it means going hungry. I tried super low complexity puzzles too, where the food is loose and comes out if you just nudge it, but...no success.

(Piper is adorable btw!)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

NotAMuggle said:


> Have you tried a food puzzle?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a great idea for later... I wouldn't muddy the waters with it now though!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mina_ said:


> I have tried just about everything. Not the Nina Ottosson ones, but I invested in a zogoflex, lickimats and few other puzzles from the local pet shop. She has an extremely low frustration threshold and doesn't want to work for the food, even if it means going hungry. I tried super low complexity puzzles too, where the food is loose and comes out if you just nudge it, but...no success.


She is young for this if she wasn't introduced to it by the breeder so that she developed some frustration tolerance then. It will come with time, but solve this food problem first!


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## NotAMuggle (Dec 4, 2020)

krandall said:


> That's a great idea for later... I wouldn't muddy the waters with it now though!


Lol good point, last thing she needs right now is a pup who refuses to eat unless Mom puts her kibble in fancy food puzzle every time _just so. _These munchkins can really have us jumping through hoops if you let them. They're too smart 😂


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## mina_ (Dec 21, 2021)

krandall said:


> She is young for this if she wasn't introduced to it by the breeder so that she developed some frustration tolerance then. It will come with time, but solve this food problem first!


Will try!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Hang in there! She is definitely hanging in, a few bites can make it a lot easier for her to drag this out  You are doing great. It’s clear you are having to undo some habits that came along with her, but she seems to respond to your positive training.


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## mina_ (Dec 21, 2021)

Just to let everyone know - the situation has improved a lot! It was partially because I only gave her kibble until she caved (took quite some days), and partially because I found a way to coat the kibble in the cooked food, which makes it more appetizing to her, I guess. Still leaves some kibble and doesn't eat it, but overall I'm okay with that, as long as it's a few pieces here and there.

She's finally eating like a good healthy puppy (knock on wood)!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

YAY!!! 💗


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

I'm late in adding to this thread. I just want to add that I had the same trouble with Willow. She ate very little kibble and it was a struggle to get her to eat. I switched to a freeze dried food (Honest Kitchen) and that solved the eating problem. She loves it and knows exactly when it's meal time.


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