# Liver problems in Havs?



## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

What is this that I seem to be reading quite a bit about on this forum about liver problems?! This is one I haven't been aware of, and am now getting worried about. I thought Havs were quite healthy, and all the testing precautions were just to keep up that status of being relatively health-problem-free. 

I'm hoping that my (intense, and I thought, thorough,) advance research wasn't missing something critically important.

Thanks!

Sheri


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

There are some liver problems in the breed, but not nearly as much as exists in some of the other toy breeds. It isn't always the case, but you tend to see it in a lot of the smaller dogs. Having said that, there are plenty of healthy small Havs too.

Despite all the health testing a responsible breeder does, she/he cannot guarantee that no problems will crop up. It is just the nature of genetics. However, we do know that certain things are more easily eliminated by doing our health testing and then removing those dogs from our breeding programs. That is why we health test - to narrow the possibilities of producing dogs with health problems.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Thank you, Kimberly. I know that no breed (or human, for that matter,) is guaranteed good health, but I thought Havs were Less inclined to problems with all the careful breeding and testing that the breed encourages. And the liver problems are something that I never knew about.

SHeri


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

My understanding is that because Havs were "regenerated" in the US from such a small number of dogs, health issues can arise because of that (small gene pool) or be more pervasive in the breed. So, selective breeding and health testing are even more important in this breed.

Kimberly, and other breeders, is there any truth to this? Or just rumor?


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Jane, your new pictures of Lincoln and Scout are nice to see!

Sheri


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

So, does this mean that if you buy a Havanese you are risking higher vet bills and potentially earlier death of your beloved pet than another breed?!

Sheri


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Sheri, Havanese do tend to be a fairly healthy breed in comparison to a lot of breeds out there, but liver problems are one of those things that a lot of small breeds have to work to fight against. Thankfully, there is a lot of liver research being done by Dr. Sharon Center. Most of her work has been in Maltese and Yorkshire Terriers, but she has now moved into Havanese in the last year or so.

Fortunately, many dogs with liver trouble can be managed by a diet change and/or supplementing. Some will need surgery, and others just aren't caught in time.

Unfortunately, there are several members here who have had dogs that have been touched by liver disease. One family that came to me had lost their first Havanese to liver disease so when she was considering one of my puppies, we had that puppy tested even though there were no symptoms. I couldn't imagine a family going through that a second time.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

I know, that would break my heart!! Do breeders have a test for this issue, too? I've only heard of the eyes, hearing, and legs being certified regularly.

Sheri


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Sheri said:


> Jane, your new pictures of Lincoln and Scout are nice to see!
> 
> Sheri


Thanks, Sheri! I like to change them once in awhile!


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

What are the symptoms of liver disease?

Kathie


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Sheri said:


> I know, that would break my heart!! Do breeders have a test for this issue, too? I've only heard of the eyes, hearing, and legs being certified regularly.
> 
> Sheri


I think there are tests for patellas, cardiac/heart, and hips too!


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Oh, yeah, I forgot about the heart one. The "legs" I mentioned include the patellas and hips in my brain  

Sheri


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Jane, I wouldn't put much weight into that rumor. Due to the nature in creating a purebred breed, all breeds have to have a "relatively small gene pool" at some point to get developed. It is like the myth that inbreeding creates genetic abnormalities.

Sheri, veterinarians have a test, but this isn't something that all breeders do regularly. It isn't one of the tests that can be registered at OFA either. The most basic test for normal/abnormal liver values is the Bile Acids Test (often referred to as the BAT among people who are doing the testing among their dogs). The results do fluctuate, but you can get the baseline done to make sure it is in the range of what is normal. There are other tests beyond this that can be done as well.


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## Gracie's Mom (Sep 7, 2007)

Sheri & Kathie ~

Don't worry yourself over it. There are some liver problems, but unless you have some clear indicators - I wouldn't worry over it. Some severe symptoms would be lethargy, weight loss, poor appetite, behavior changes including head pressing, etc. If there is ever a worry the Bile Acid Test (BAT) are a great detector for something being a miss.

My little Gracie has mild MVD (MicroVascular Dysplasia) a congenital liver problem. She will always have it, but she is asymptomatic and will hopefully continue down that path. I hope she lives a somewhat normal life with only diet change and supplements. I guess her one and only BIG sign is that she is very tiny for a hav - she is 14 months and is 4 lbs. 14 oz. She has not gained an ounce in months. Regardless, I'm thrilled I have her. Her breeder certainly was not aware of the problem before her. So, it can crop up in the best of breeders, just like Kimberly said. Don't stress - just enjoy. The life span of a dog is never long enough anyway.


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

I did full bloodwork and bile acids on one of my bitches when she was about a year old (which were normal). She was then bred twice, and in her second litter produced a puppy with MVD. (She was eating the tainted chicken jerky strips thru this entire pregnancy).
I had her bile acids redone after her puppy was diagnosed, and they were slightly elevated. I decided to have her spayed and get a liver biopsy done at the same time. She was not diagnosed with MVD, but her liver showed abnormalities. I have done nothing differently with her up to this point. She acts like a normal regular havanese. She eats the same food as my others. She is a bit on the skinny side, and does have weak, fragile hair. But other than that she is a normal nutty dog!


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## Gracie's Mom (Sep 7, 2007)

Katie - it sounds like you did all of the precautionary testing you needed to. My breeder didn't do that - I'm sure of. 

Maybe you can tell me if this is crazy - I'm almost tempted to have BATS done on a future puppy before I bring it home. I think you can do it at 10 or 12 weeks? Maybe I could take the puppy home for a couple of weeks until they got old enough and the commitment would depend if the dog ended up having liver problems. I'm not planning on another dog right now because I can barely keep up with all of Gracie's expenses with this and her eye issues (now resolved and not related to MVD). I know this would probably raise an eyebrow of a breeder though - but I would really want a healthy one - when the next time comes. Maybe this would be an unreasonable request to a breeder, but I've never owned a healthy dog.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Karen, I don't think that is an unreasonable request. I believe that Jeanne had Kimberly do BAT tests on Maddie as a puppy just because Jeanne's last Hav, Panda, had liver issues and Jeanne was worried. I think a good breeder will listen to your worries and try to soothe them for you.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

*"So, does this mean that if you buy a Havanese you are risking higher vet bills and potentially earlier death of your beloved pet than another breed?!"*

Sheri, not at all ! In fact, like Kimberly has said, there are many other breeds that actually have liver issues as a major part of their makeup. Havs dont' have that. I wouldn't worry at all. Sure, if your dog is on the small side and/or drinks a LOT of water, starts rubbing his head on the walls, walking funny, a sudden change in behavior..... etc...... then I'd have things checked out.

So, Kathie, maybe that answers your question about what some of the symptoms are. But then, there are other liver conditions that don't have those symptoms at all. Some dogs get suddenly very sick, others simply have very subtle signs that maybe something is off or they just got a complete blood count and something shows up.

I dont' think Havanese are "liver dogs" at all and I actually went through a trying 10 months with Ricky because of a liver problem. In his case, it was due to a toxic reaction to vaccines, but it took many months and mucho money and stress to finally get things where I'm not worried anymore. Sure, there are Havs that have liver disease, but so do other breeds and it's not something that is alarming at all at this point. I dont' think so anyway! :biggrin1:


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

I don't think you should worry at all. My Lulu, who is small, had one post BAT that was slightly elevated but 2 BAT's since then were normal. She is also assumed to have had a bad reaction to her puppy shots. When I read Katie's post I also really wonder if her first BAT was slightly elevated because at that time she was eating the costco chicken jerky. I have always wondered about that and always will.
And about testing a puppy before you buy it I'm wondering if that is even conclusive. Does anyone know of a Hav that had normal BAT's at one time and then they went high later??? I don't know if that could happen. I guess they could develop MVD later but I wouldn't think they could develop a shunt later???
Carole


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Sheri said:


> What is this that I seem to be reading quite a bit about on this forum about liver problems?! This is one I haven't been aware of, and am now getting worried about. I thought Havs were quite healthy, and all the testing precautions were just to keep up that status of being relatively health-problem-free.
> 
> I'm hoping that my (intense, and I thought, thorough,) advance research wasn't missing something critically important.
> 
> ...


That's one of the reasons I come to the forum. I hear more about the problems in the breed here than on the lists and I want to stay on top of things. I didn't hear about liver problems until I saw it here and then I jumped on the liver list to educate myself.
Over the years health testing and selective breeding has taken a lot of problems out of our breed.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

mellowbo said:


> I don't think you should worry at all. My Lulu, who is small, had one post BAT that was slightly elevated but 2 BAT's since then were normal. She is also assumed to have had a bad reaction to her puppy shots. When I read Katie's post I also really wonder if her first BAT was slightly elevated because at that time she was eating the costco chicken jerky. I have always wondered about that and always will.
> And about testing a puppy before you buy it I'm wondering if that is even conclusive. Does anyone know of a Hav that had normal BAT's at one time and then they went high later??? I don't know if that could happen. I guess they could develop MVD later but I wouldn't think they could develop a shunt later???
> Carole


You can test after 16 weeks and hope that it stays normal. Then you test again as they grow.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Gracie's Mom said:


> Katie - it sounds like you did all of the precautionary testing you needed to. My breeder didn't do that - I'm sure of.
> 
> Maybe you can tell me if this is crazy - I'm almost tempted to have BATS done on a future puppy before I bring it home. I think you can do it at 10 or 12 weeks? Maybe I could take the puppy home for a couple of weeks until they got old enough and the commitment would depend if the dog ended up having liver problems. I'm not planning on another dog right now because I can barely keep up with all of Gracie's expenses with this and her eye issues (now resolved and not related to MVD). I know this would probably raise an eyebrow of a breeder though - but I would really want a healthy one - when the next time comes. Maybe this would be an unreasonable request to a breeder, but I've never owned a healthy dog.


16 weeks of age. I'm getting an older puppy and had the breeder run a BAT on her.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Jane said:


> My understanding is that because Havs were "regenerated" in the US from such a small number of dogs, health issues can arise because of that (small gene pool) or be more pervasive in the breed. So, selective breeding and health testing are even more important in this breed.
> 
> Kimberly, and other breeders, is there any truth to this? Or just rumor?


All breeds start with a small gene pool. You keep breeding the best and don't breed the ones with problems. Inbreeding or line breeding isn't a bad thing although some would lead you to think otherwise. A good book to read is the ABC's of Breeding. Line or inbreeding will show health problems if there are any faster than an outcross breeding. With an outcross it could take a couple of generations for that one problem to crop up and by then you have dogs that have already been bred and it's been passed on.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Sheri said:


> So, does this mean that if you buy a Havanese you are risking higher vet bills and potentially earlier death of your beloved pet than another breed?!
> 
> Sheri


We have one of the more health tested breeds that is reported to OFA. Amazing when you think about it. Look at the number of other dogs that there are born each year vs the much smaller number of Havanese born yet we rank so high in health testing and reporting. That speaks volumes.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Sheri said:


> I know, that would break my heart!! Do breeders have a test for this issue, too? I've only heard of the eyes, hearing, and legs being certified regularly.
> 
> Sheri


We can do a prelim hip xray which means the dog is under 2 years of age. It can be a day or year under 2 years of age. After 2 it's the official hip xray and doesn't need to be repeated.
CERF is the only test we do yearly. The legs part are the patellas. They're reported to OFA after the dog is a year old and doesn't need to be done again if they're normal. 
The hearing test is the BAER test and is only done once unless your dog develops hearing problems when it gets older and you want to know if it's ignoring you or can't hear. 
Cardiac testing is done after the dog is a year old for OFA but can be checked at any time. Although the dogs have their OFA clear rating for it, I still have my vet check the hearts each time they go in.
There are more tests you can run if you think there is a dog with that problem in your lines.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

mellowbo said:


> I don't think you should worry at all. My Lulu, who is small, had one post BAT that was slightly elevated but 2 BAT's since then were normal. She is also assumed to have had a bad reaction to her puppy shots. When I read Katie's post I also really wonder if her first BAT was slightly elevated because at that time she was eating the costco chicken jerky. I have always wondered about that and always will.
> And about testing a puppy before you buy it I'm wondering if that is even conclusive. Does anyone know of a Hav that had normal BAT's at one time and then they went high later??? I don't know if that could happen. I guess they could develop MVD later but I wouldn't think they could develop a shunt later???
> Carole


So many things can throw off a BAT test. Even Angel Eyes that people use for tear stains. It used to give that warning on their website, don't know if it's still there.
I believe you can rule out a shunt at a young age with a BAT but the values can go higher later.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Jan, 
Thanks for all the info. It sounds from what we're hearing here that what I had understood is correct: that good Havanese breeders have committed themselves to the breed. That because of this commitment, Havanese are one of the healthiest of breeds. Is this understanding right? 

Sheri


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Gracie's Mom said:


> Sheri & Kathie ~
> 
> Don't worry yourself over it. There are some liver problems, but unless you have some clear indicators - I wouldn't worry over it. Some severe symptoms would be lethargy, weight loss, poor appetite, behavior changes including head pressing, etc. If there is ever a worry the Bile Acid Test (BAT) are a great detector for something being a miss.
> 
> My little Gracie has mild MVD (MicroVascular Dysplasia) a congenital liver problem. She will always have it, but she is asymptomatic and will hopefully continue down that path. I hope she lives a somewhat normal life with only diet change and supplements. I guess her one and only BIG sign is that she is very tiny for a hav - she is 14 months and is 4 lbs. 14 oz. She has not gained an ounce in months. Regardless, I'm thrilled I have her. Her breeder certainly was not aware of the problem before her. So, it can crop up in the best of breeders, just like Kimberly said. Don't stress - just enjoy. The life span of a dog is never long enough anyway.


Gracies' Mom;
Goodness, you've had a hard time with your little girl! She's incredibly tiny, too! I hope she's alright now.

Sheri


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## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

I am the owner of Katie's puppy with mild MVD. We had her tested at 7 mos because she was small for the breed. Her bile acids were mildly elevated and we followed with an ultrasound and a liver biopsy. We do feed her a lower protein kibble and test her annually. At over 18 mos she remains asymptomatic. Katie, has the responsible breeder has retired the mom. 

Regarding Havs liver disease vs other small dogs, Havs (when they are effected) are more likely to have MVD which is much milder than a liver shunt. Breeds such as the Yorkie are more prone to the shunt. 

Although I have an effected dog, I would never turn down a Hav.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

marjrc said:


> *"
> 
> I dont' think Havanese are "liver dogs" at all and I actually went through a trying 10 months with Ricky because of a liver problem. In his case, it was due to a toxic reaction to vaccines, but it took many months and mucho money and stress to finally get things where I'm not worried anymore. Sure, there are Havs that have liver disease, but so do other breeds and it's not something that is alarming at all at this point. I dont' think so anyway! :biggrin1:*


*

Marj, what went on with your Ricky and his reaction to vaccines? Tucker has had two awful reactions, and I'm thinking about dodging any further shots in the future, if I can figure out how to make that work.

Sheri*


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I was able to go to the liver seminar at National and it was very shocking and it wasn't even havanese that scared me but maltese. She said 80-90% of maltese and yorkshires have a high bile acid count. But that is also important to measure these dogs so you know even if they are healthy their count is higher than other dogs.

A lot of liver dogs don't show any symptoms until suddenly they are really sick. I remember the big thing she said is not just to do one blood test but you need to do one before food and one after in order to truly measure the count. I will see if I can't scan her paper this week and if anyone wants it just send me a pm with your email.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Sheri said:


> Jan,
> Thanks for all the info. It sounds from what we're hearing here that what I had understood is correct: that good Havanese breeders have committed themselves to the breed. That because of this commitment, Havanese are one of the healthiest of breeds. Is this understanding right?
> 
> Sheri


The Havanese breeders I talk to are all committed to our breed. On the whole, we have a healthy breed and if we can keep them out of puppy mills hopefully it can stay that way. You can look up the stats of different breeds on offa.org I think. It's been a while since I've done that and hope I have it right about offa.org. If not one of the other breeders may know.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

ama0722 said:


> I was able to go to the liver seminar at National and it was very shocking and it wasn't even havanese that scared me but maltese. She said 80-90% of maltese and yorkshires have a high bile acid count. But that is also important to measure these dogs so you know even if they are healthy their count is higher than other dogs.
> 
> A lot of liver dogs don't show any symptoms until suddenly they are really sick. I remember the big thing she said is not just to do one blood test but you need to do one before food and one after in order to truly measure the count. I will see if I can't scan her paper this week and if anyone wants it just send me a pm with your email.


Isn't Dr Center's article in TNT?


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Liver_Shunt_And_MVD_Support/ That's the liver support list that has a ton of information in the files.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Sheri said:


> Marj, what went on with your Ricky and his reaction to vaccines? Tucker has had two awful reactions, and I'm thinking about dodging any further shots in the future, if I can figure out how to make that work.
> 
> Sheri


Oh no, Sheri! What kind of reactions did Tucker have and to which shots? Were they localized to the injection site? Or something systemic?


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## Jennifer Clevenger (Jun 26, 2008)

I also attended Dr. Centers seminar. She said that there is a need for all breeders to do a pre and post bile acid test. It is a tool that can be used to make sure your breeding dogs are within normal levels. Like it was stated before, 80% of dogs with MVD liver shunts are asymptomatic. So the breeder would not necessarily know that their dog had this problem without the test. My friend has a show male who came from a litter who had two dogs come down with MVD. They just found out within the last few months that those dogs were affected. They are two years old. The breeder had not done the bile acid test previously. 
As a puppy buyer, I would want the breeder I bought my dog from to do the pre and post bile acid test on both parents. It is a quiet disorder. The symptoms can be nondiscrete. That is unfortunately the problem with this condition.
I agree with Kimberly that most breeders do their best but sometimes mothernature has other plans.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

*Shot woes*



Jane said:


> Oh no, Sheri! What kind of reactions did Tucker have and to which shots? Were they localized to the injection site? Or something systemic?


Aha! I just figured out where the posts go when they get bumped down the list and aren't on the opening home page.

Jane, Tucker had a systemic reaction. His first shots with me resulted in him shaking, drooling, throwing up...as a tiny little guy! I spent all night holding him. The vet I had thought I would be using just said (when I called him a 11 that night) that he'd be fine. "Come in the next day if it continued." I was so scared! Called the breeder and she said Tucker had not had trouble with the shots she gave. Needless to say, I didn't go back to the same vet. Found another one that I'm pretty satisfied with and told her about Tucker's reaction. She was unable to get any records from the first vet, (they showed no record of Tucker!) and we gave him his shots in a two
step timing that time. He did okay that time, just a bit draggy for a day. Then came his year shots. The rabies brought the same response of shaking, jerking, drooling, and I was awake most of the night with him again. The new vet said she couldn't explain it, he must just be sensitive to the shots, and that next time we can try a steroid or benedryl before-hand.

It was AWFUL. I thought he might be going to die.

Sheri


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Sheri, I'm afraid it's too long to get into all the details here, but here's a thread about what happened to Ricky:

http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=2411&highlight=Hugs+Ricky

In a nutshell, in Nov. of last year, Ricky woke up 4 days after a first part of his shots (he was going to get the 2nd part 3 weeks later) shivering, panting excessively and not being able or willing to move. I brought him to the ER at 3 a.m. and his ALT was sky high. It was 1200 when normal is about 100, so they kept him overnight, fed him fluids and retested. The ALT (liver enzyme) shot up to 1800, but went down with some med'ns and fluids. I got him back the next day and from there....... well, it's been a long journey.

Basically, the vaccines caused acute toxicity in the liver and with much research on my part, great advice from all kinds of sources, change of diet (many times!), lots of moola, time and some invasive testing on Ricky, we are at the point where he will no longer get vaccinated - over my dead body! - and we will be testing in a couple of weeks to see how low the ALT has gone down. I'm praying for a normal rate!  He never ever had symptoms except that one time when I brought him to the ER, so that's a huge blessing. It was only with the BAT and blood tests that we saw he had toxicity in his body.

For more info on vaccines/titers/no shots, etc... check these threads out! 

http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=5220

http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=3311

http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=5345

http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=1097


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

*"The new vet said she couldn't explain it, he must just be sensitive to the shots, and that next time we can try a steroid or benedryl before-hand. It was AWFUL. I thought he might be going to die."*

I know the feeling, hon. It is very scary! I would completely avoid vaccines. Period. But that's just me.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Thanks, Marj. I don't have time to read the link now, (need to study) but will. I have come to the conclusion to avoid further shots with Tucker unless something changes my mind for his benefit.

Sheri


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Sheri, that is just so scary. I can't believe the vet was not more alarmed about Tucker's adverse reaction. My plan is to have titers done to see if their vaccines are still effective, and if the levels are sufficient, to skip the vaccination. The only problem is with rabies, which the county requires to be done every 3 years. But if they had a serious reaction to rabies, I might just risk it and going the scofflaw route. 

Thanks for the links and info, Marj. Hugs to Ricky!


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

marjrc said:


> Sheri, I'm afraid it's too long to get into all the details here, but here's a thread about what happened to Ricky:
> 
> http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=2411&highlight=Hugs+Ricky
> 
> ...


Marj,
Have you had Ricky's tests done by now? What were the results? I hope he's in the clear.

Sheri and Tucker


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## avonleahavanese (Mar 20, 2008)

*BAT results*

Hi, Everyone:
Dr. Center thinks there may be two genes involved in liver disease in Havanese - this is better than CD, which can have up to 30! BAT levels can vary depending upon the food you feed the dog, (42% protein of Innova vs. 21% protein in others), and other factors, including delayed gastric emptying. This gastric delay can cause elevated values, but it does NOT mean the liver has problems.
My dogs are involved in Dr. Center's study, but she needs more Havanese to enter the study. Right now, Dr. Center fears that as much as 30% of our Havs may be afflicted by some form of liver problems. This may be skewed by the relatively small sample population she currently has. She needs more people to submit blood samples from their Havs - and it is important to have multi-generational lines, if possible. If you are willing to participate in the study (and have your BAT levels done for free), please contact Sharon Center at Cornell University. She or one of her assistants will get your information, contact your vet, and set up the test. Thanks!
Phyllis


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Phyllis,
I'm interested in this...Tucker hasn't been eating hardly anything for about 3 weeks now, and from what I've read on here, it makes me worry it could be his liver. What is involved with a BAT test, and would your Dr. Center be interested in a Hav from way over here, so far away? I'm not sure how she'd need the test run. Also, it would just be him, as I doubt his breeder would be interested--she doesn't communicate much, I've found. 

Sheri and Tucker


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

avonleahavanese said:


> Hi, Everyone:
> Dr. Center thinks there may be two genes involved in liver disease in Havanese - this is better than CD, which can have up to 30! BAT levels can vary depending upon the food you feed the dog, (42% protein of Innova vs. 21% protein in others), and other factors, including delayed gastric emptying. This gastric delay can cause elevated values, but it does NOT mean the liver has problems.
> My dogs are involved in Dr. Center's study, but she needs more Havanese to enter the study. Right now, Dr. Center fears that as much as 30% of our Havs may be afflicted by some form of liver problems. This may be skewed by the relatively small sample population she currently has. She needs more people to submit blood samples from their Havs - and it is important to have multi-generational lines, if possible. If you are willing to participate in the study (and have your BAT levels done for free), please contact Sharon Center at Cornell University. She or one of her assistants will get your information, contact your vet, and set up the test. Thanks!
> Phyllis


She wrote to me and asked if Lightning could be in the study because he has normal levels. I know others that have emailed her asking to be in the study and she's said no. From what I understand, she's very close to her goal.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Thanks, Jan.

I just took Tucker into the vet to get weighed and he's not lost any--in fact gained a bit. Then once we got home he ate a decent amount of kibble. So, I'm going to put off the worry for a bit, and see if he was just going through a spell. I did also hear back from his breeder and there's been no problem in his dam, sire or siblings.

Sheri and Tucker


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Sheri said:


> Phyllis,
> I'm interested in this...Tucker hasn't been eating hardly anything for about 3 weeks now, and from what I've read on here, it makes me worry it could be his liver. What is involved with a BAT test...


Sheri, your vet can do the Bile Acids Test if you are concerned. Just call and schedule an appointment and they will give you the details. Usually, you would need to have Tucker stop eating around 9pm the evening before, and then take him in the next morning and they will draw some blood. Then, they will feed him a high fat food and draw his blood again in a bit. They are checking the bile acid levels in his blood. It is pretty simple, but he does need to fast first.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Thanks, Jan. That does sound easier than I thought it might be. (Didn't know if surgery was involved...) Right now the fasting part would be the easy part. Getting him to eat has been the challenge.

Sheri


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Jane said:


> The only problem is with rabies, which the county requires to be done every 3 years. But if they had a serious reaction to rabies, I might just risk it and going the scofflaw route.


Jane, Sheri, et al,
If your dog has a reaction to the Rabies vaccine, you can ask your veterinarian for a *Letter of Dispensation *to be given to your county to make your dog exempt from any further Rabies vaccines, but still remain in line with the local laws. Obviously, your veterinarian would have to have documentation of any reactions, so if you never took him/her in for observation or treatment following a Rabies reaction, he/she may opt not to do this for you.

Fortunately, I believe Rabies is the only vaccine that is ever required by law within the U.S., so you can just avoid any others if they have caused a reaction.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Thanks, Kimberly. I'll be asking my vet about it now instead of waiting till he's due, in about three years.

Sheri


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Havtahava said:


> Sheri, your vet can do the Bile Acids Test if you are concerned. Just call and schedule an appointment and they will give you the details. Usually, you would need to have Tucker stop eating around 9pm the evening before, and then take him in the next morning and they will draw some blood. Then, they will feed him a high fat food and draw his blood again in a bit. They are checking the bile acid levels in his blood. It is pretty simple, but he does need to fast first.


I was told to take in the food the dogs normally eat. When Dr. Center asked for the blood draw on Lightning to confirm the normal levels she didn't ask for a high fat food to be given either. The blood draw she requested came from the neck......which sent me out of the room. I don't know where they took the first blood draw from as he was at the clinic for a couple of hours between draws so I wasn't there. I'm trying to remember how much the charge was when I had it run on my own...I believe it was under 100.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Sheri said:


> Thanks, Jan. That does sound easier than I thought it might be. (Didn't know if surgery was involved...) Right now the fasting part would be the easy part. Getting him to eat has been the challenge.
> 
> Sheri


My eyes are too messed up to look at too many posts but if he can stand to gain some weight, Satin balls are good


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Hmmm, I think his weight is okay, just found out today. So, I guess he's not starving like I was afraid he was doing. He must be what we call (with horses) an easy-keeper and just goes through spells of not wanting to eat much/any. I'm going to look up the "satin balls" though.

Hope your eyes get better. You better get off the computer! Ha!

Sheri


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Sheri said:


> Hmmm, I think his weight is okay, just found out today. So, I guess he's not starving like I was afraid he was doing. He must be what we call (with horses) an easy-keeper and just goes through spells of not wanting to eat much/any. I'm going to look up the "satin balls" though.
> 
> Hope your eyes get better. You better get off the computer! Ha!
> 
> Sheri


Satin balls will put weight on him if you give him too many but he'll love them.
I'm only keeping up with my HCA committee email (only? at over 300 emails a week that's only? LOL) Coming on here tonite was a treat......but oh it hurts my eyes.
I'm so far behind on everything but sending hugs


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