# CD-need some advice



## Demetra (Mar 17, 2009)

Hey, I posted yesterday on the old thread, and was advised to go here, so here I am. I'd like to start by saying how wonderful it is to have a network like this to share and get advice and support. 

Fluffy is our sweet baby girl, and I've just found out about CD from googling crooked legs in canines. She's 21 months old...is that too late to give her the egg yolks to help? This crooked leg didn't show up until she was almost a year old, and then, stupid me, I just thought it was supposed to be that way(like bassett hounds, etc. she's the only Hav I've ever seen). She doesn't limp, she plays and runs like crazy, shows no signs of ill health. She's the happiest, friendliest, sweetie that I've ever seen! (are all Hav's this wonderful?!)

So, what I'd like to know is: does CD mean she'll have liver and/or heart problems for sure? (please someone tell me no, so I can quit worrying so much) and I want to give her supplements asap (am checking with the vet this week). Can they test for liver shunts? Would she have symptoms of liver problems by now if she had a shunt? I'm trying not to panic here...and trying not to kick myself for being a bad pup mommy and not checking this out sooner! She's been to the vet for shots etc, and NO ONE ever said anything about this. Is it just that Hav's are uncommon and they're not used to seeing them or what?

here's a pic of her at about 5 months...my daughter put the princess clothes from build-a-bear on her. SO CUTE! Sorry if it's big, but I downsized it already...don't know how to get it any smaller!

Demetra and Fuffy-nutter


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## marb42 (Oct 19, 2008)

Fluffy is so cute! I'm sorry about her leg. I'm sure you'll get great advice here!
Gina


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## Maxmom (Jul 22, 2008)

What an adorable Hav!! You will get great advice soon, I'm sure.


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## dreampup (May 18, 2008)

Has she been diagnosed by a vet? I recently had to shave our pup (he is 10 days shy of one year old!) and discovered that his paws turned outwards. I posted here and immediately felt better after someone told me that it was not uncommon and that he was probably just easty/westy. I felt better until I read the thread titled "Preston's legs" There is great information out there, ...but I decided to let the vet diagnose my dear pup. The vet immediately noticed that he has a patella issue or trick knees in the back. He is supposed to get back to me on the diagnosis on the front legs within a week. I may need to see an orthopedic vet. I think that the only way to know if your dog truly had cd is to get an x-ray and then go from there. Best of luck to you!


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

She's so cute, and NO, the picture isn't too big! However, we need more! :biggrin1:

I just want to welcome you, and the folks that can help more will be responding about the CD. It's good you are seeing the vet, though, I know everyone will be saying that's important as a first check.


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## Demetra (Mar 17, 2009)

Hey, y'all,

Thanks for the quick replies...how cool is this to talk to people this way? I'm new to "threads" as well!

I've got so many pics of that pup, you'd get tired of seeing them all. I'll attach another soon, after I make some more smaller so they'll fit.

So, some of your dogs look different than Fluffy. Are there different strains or something? Also, can they have crooked legs and not have CD? Hers is worst on her left front leg, which bows out at an odd angle when she sits down, but her right front toes turn out a bit too. Back legs are straight as a stick!

Demetra


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

I hope you don't make the pictures any smaller than the one you posted above. We love, love, LOVE pictures here. Believe me, you can't post too many for us!

There are a lot of different looks in Havs, starting with lots of colors and color changes as they grow older. A lot of people trim their dogs, some keep theirs in full coats, like my Tucker is. Have you been looking up info online for the Havanese? 

There is a Gallery section on this Forum that has lot of photos. It's fun to see the variety! And, yes, Havs are known for their friendliness and joy.


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## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

Demetra--welcome to the forum and your Fluffy is adorable!!!

Please try to be calm until you see your vet. There is no need to worry about problems that might not be in your future. We will be here for you if and when you need us.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Demetra, I agree with everyone. Go see your vet! Have you soaped up the front legs so you can get a good look?

Ryan


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Welcome Demetra!
Like others have already said, try not to worry. Once you talk to your veterinarian, I think you'll feel much better.



Demetra said:


> So, what I'd like to know is: does CD mean she'll have liver and/or heart problems for sure? (please someone tell me no, so I can quit worrying so much)


 No. And I'm not just saying that so you can quit worrying either. 



> and I want to give her supplements asap (am checking with the vet this week).


Definitely wait until you see your vet. The definition of a supplement is that you are providing something lacking. You don't even know if she is lacking anything yet, so hang in there a bit.



> Can they test for liver shunts?


Yes.



> Would she have symptoms of liver problems by now if she had a shunt?


Not necessarily.

I hope your vet visit goes well. I'm looking forward to your good news.


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## Demetra (Mar 17, 2009)

Hi Everyone,

Thanks so much for all the great comments. We're going to the vet tomorrow afternoon. They'll do some x-rays and I'll let you know what she says. I'll try to get some pictures sized down so I can post some more. Ryan, I haven't soaped her legs, except when we had to bathe her a couple of times (usually the groomer does it) and then I didn't think to look. I really thought Hav's were supposed to be this way, since I'd never seen a Hav but I had seen dogs with crooked legs, i.e. bassets and daschunds, all my life. So, I'm really not worrying too much until I get a vet's opinion. I've got a little girl who will be inconsolable if something happened to Fuffy-nutter, and her parents wouldn't be too happy either!

I'll try to take a pic of her crooked leg, and post that. Thanks again for all the nice comments...I do feel better!

D


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## Demetra (Mar 17, 2009)

Ooopps...sorry for the double post...trying to do too many things at once!


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

> Fluffy is our sweet baby girl, and I've just found out about CD from googling crooked legs in canines. She's 21 months old...is that too late to give her the egg yolks to help?


There is no evidence that egg yolks has made or can make any difference whatsoever regarding the structure of front legs.



> So, what I'd like to know is: does CD mean she'll have liver and/or heart problems for sure?


Of course not. There are dogs with perfectly straight legs that have liver or heart problems. There isn't enough research or scientific evidence to tie one to another.



> Can they test for liver shunts? Would she have symptoms of liver problems by now if she had a shunt?


 I

If she had a shunt, you would know by now.  so take a deep breath.

My next post will include excerpts of an article I wrote regarding CD and the non-relation with health issues.


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

There are some Internet sites and breeding-related venues that suggest that CD (chondrodysplasia) in Havanese is associated with an array of other health issues, such as cataracts, liver abnormalities, and heart problems. At this time there is not enough evidence, both scientific and anecdotal, to support these hypotheses. The grouping of these health issues into a specifically labeled "syndrome", and the connection of these health issues to visual identification of crooked legs, is one of many ideas being tossed around in cyberspace and on breed discussion lists. 
Some breeds such as the Alaskan Malamute, http://www.minnesotamalamuteclub.com/brdprobs/chdhist.htm, Great Pyrenees, http://www.gpcahealth.org/Affiliated Rep Info/AHRDwarf2007.pdf, the German Shepherd Dog, http://www.fredlanting.org/2008/07/...s-leg-deformities-and-dwarfism-in-the-canine/, and several other breeds have confirmed cases of dogs with CD. 
In these breeds, as in the Havanese, CD is a genetic defect that should be eliminated by applying careful breeding practices. The mode of inheritance is not known, varies from breed to breed, and also depends on the particular variety of chondrodysplasia*. It could be autosomal recessive or dominant, or X-chromosome-linked recessive or dominant, some with full penetrance, and some not. Some scientists have suggested that CD may be caused by an autosomal recessive gene; this would certainly explain why two perfectly straight legged dogs can produce offspring with CD. This would certainly imply that both parents are carriers of the gene that causes CD, and should not be bred to each other again. Breeders are limited in identifying carriers of this gene, because all they can go by are pedigrees, test breedings, and removal of "suspected carriers"- this only achieves limited success. It is important to note that the actual mode of inheritance in the Havanese breed is still unknown.

The most accurate and reliable method of diagnosing CD is by radiograph (x-ray) of the affected limb(s), or by bone biopsy of the growth plate. The x-ray should be reviewed by a by a qualified Orthopedic Veterinary Specialist. 
A Veterinary Specialist in Orthopedics is the only professional that is qualified to "certify" a dog as CD-free. At this time there is no specific diagnostic evaluation for CD. The OFA does not recognize a specific x-ray protocol to identify CD in Havanese dogs.
While "soaping", (the process of lathering up your dog to see what is under the coat), is a great tool used by many breeders to evaluate the front and rear legs and structure of their dogs, it is not a reliable tool for diagnosing CD! Soaping can be very subjective, since the results lie in "the eye of the beholder", and mild cases of CD can go unnoticed by even the most experienced breeder.

Straight fronts are important because they are the correct structure our Havanese standard specifically addresses: 
"The elbows turn neither in nor out, and are tight to the body. Forelegs are well-boned and straight when viewed from any angle." 
I test and OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) certify all of my Havanese for CERF, BAER, Hips, Elbows, Patellas, LCP, and Cardiac. If you breed for straight fronts and correct structure, thoroughly health test your dogs, only breed health-tested dogs, and property socialize your puppies, you will be doing your best to produce happy and healthy Havanese!

I believe that this is the correct approach - this approach is not based on any claims of a "syndrome" related to crooked legs. These claims lack the evidence and scientific proof necessary to make them fact, and are mere speculation.

*Achondroplasia (short-limbed dysplasia seen in Bulldogs, Boston Terriers, Pekingese and other breeds and normal in these breeds), Hypochondroplasia (less severe form of achondroplasia seen in Dachshunds, Basset Hounds, and Welsh Corgis and normal in these breeds), Dyschondroplasia, Multiple Cartilagenous Exostoses, Fibrous Dysplasia, Osteogenesis Imperfecta, Osteopetrosis, Cortical Hyperostosis, and various others.


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

And this is part of my article that appeared in a previous issue of Our Havanese:



> The Havanese is the National dog of Cuba and its only native breed.
> The Havanese is an AKC Registered breed. As such, the can compete in AKC events and earn titles in conformation, rally, obedience and agility. The Havanese is judged in AKC conformation events to the Havanese standard as written and approved by the Havanese Club of America, and accepted by the American Kennel Club as the only standard by which the Havanese shall be judged.
> Havanese are health tested for eyes (CERF), congenital deafness (BAER), patellar luxation, hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, cardiac, and legg-calve-perthes. These tests are evaluated by OFA orthopedic specialists, A.C.V.O. diplomats and veterinary audiologists who follow specific testing guidelines and protocols established for testing of all breeds in their database.
> The AKC has built the world's largest database of canine DNA profiles for parentage verification and genetic identity purposes. AKC DNA profiles are required for frequently used sires, semen collection for fresh-extended or frozen use, and for sires, dam and puppies of Multiple-Sired Litter registrations, and also has Voluntary DNA profiles
> ...


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Excellent articles, Arlene!


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Wow, yes, LOTS on info there! Excellent.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

*"Sorry if it's big, but I downsized it already...don't know how to get it any smaller!"*

Demetra if you make the photos appear smaller, you will have an outcry for bigger pictures!! :biggrin1: If you mean smaller, such as in file size, then you're right, the forum won't display huge files. Your Fluffy-nutter is adorable!! How much does she weigh? How did you get her?

Let us know what the vet says. Don't worry unless you have to.


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## Demetra (Mar 17, 2009)

Hi, Marjrc,

Yes, I meant smaller in file size...and I need to get to some pics on a different computer...will try to get to that this weekend. We got her in Oct 07 when she was almost 4 months old. I found her breeder in Missouri through a link from dogbreedinfo.com; the description of the Havanese breed there just SOLD me on these dogs. And now that we actually have her, I'm sold even more! 

She weights 12 pounds or so, and like I've said earlier, is the sweetest, most people friendly dog (especially LOVES kids, which we have one of plus her friends here alot and Fluffy loves ALL of them). We've had two Australian Shepherds before Fluff, both of which were a little iffy with strangers and the last one bit me real badly (50 stitches in the face) in July 07. Bad circumstances, he was 15 yrs old and arthritic and 85lbs and stuck in the deck steps and I tried to help him (which I should have known to do more carefully even though he showed NO sign of pain or injury-not even a whimper!) and I guess he thought I was hurting him. Anyway, long story short, he died a couple months later, and I was determined to have a dog that was kid and cat friendly, wanted one that didn't shed and was smaller, so my daughter could manage it. Fluffy fills that bill SO WELL! I just can't say enough good things about this pup.

Anyway, thanks for the bounty of info from Arlene. That's a lot to absorb. So let me see if I have this straight: she could have a crooked leg and NOT have CD? She could have CD and not have the liver/heart problems? (The part I said about them going together came from reading about the Texas A&M study). Should I take her to an orthopedic vet? Would that give me a greater chance of an accurate diagnosis and therefore more proactive treatment if treatment is even necessary? 

Or maybe I should just shut up and take her to our regular vet tomorrow, and go from there?? That seems the most sensible route..  Thanks again to all who have responded. I appreciate the "forum". Will let you know results of the vet visit.
D


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Well, Demetra, I have to hand it to you... wanting another dog after one bit you badly like that is pretty courageous! I know you knew he misunderstood the situation and did it out of pain, but that's a pretty serious injury to require so many stitches. You poor thing! 

It's great to hear how well Fluffy is doing in the family. These little guys are just so precious. Yeah..... I'd stop worrying for now.


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

> So let me see if I have this straight: she could have a crooked leg and NOT have CD? She could have CD and not have the liver/heart problems? (The part I said about them going together came from reading about the Texas A&M study).


Because there is no test for CD and no grading system, (i.e. Excellent, Good, Fair, etc like OFA does for hips), how is one to even know if a dog has CD? And how much curvature in the leg is acceptable? What if a dog is just eastey westey? 
I have to say that since the Texas A & M study was conducted without the use of an official diagnostic for CD (because none exists yet), with a limited number of dogs that supposedly had CD (probably evaluated by soaps which can be so subjective and inaccurate), I just cannot accept that this study has proven beyond any doubt that there is a relationship between CD and these genetic diseases. A theory does not a truth make.


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## Demetra (Mar 17, 2009)

Thanks, ladies, for your posts. I see what you mean, Arlene. Will let you know what my vet says today. I plan to ask about whether normal (1.5 mile)walks with me will aggravate her shoulder/leg since it is so bowed when she sits. It's the oddest thing, it seems to be just slightly crooked until she relaxes into a sit for a few seconds. When she walks there's no evidence of malformity at all.

Thanks again,

D


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

Ahh...the best part of this saying was cutt off! The last line.. 
Here it is!



> One of my favorite sayings comes to mind as I write these last lines. It goes something like this..."Just because someone says so, doesn't make it so. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."


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## jillnors2 (Apr 12, 2007)

My dog is Easty/Westy and has no problem walking several miles a day.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I would think that a dog with no problems at 21 months should be fine.

The Malamute folks were the first ones to start using the term "Chondrodysplasia" back in the 1970s. When I first met my wife, Pam, she was breeding Malamutes, In the mid '70s the Malamute club had just brought it to the public's attention and started trying to find the cause of it.

They have a very simple definition for it : 1. Excessively shortened front limbs with various degrees of bowing and deformity, especially the radius and ulna and 2. talks about the topline
http://www.minnesotamalamuteclub.com/brdprobs/phenotyp.htm
although the sloping topline doesn't apply to Havanese since they are supposed to have a sloping topline anyway.

Any dog that has a leg or legs deformed beyond what is normal for the breed or even different than what is stated in their Standard can be considered to have CD. Of course as the Malamute folks say, there are all sorts of degrees of it and some do not require any kind of treatment for it.

They raised a lot of money for research in the years following 2000 but the last I heard they were now offering a certification against it simply by pedigree research. All that stuff is pretty easy to find on the internet.

They found that is was a simple recessive pattern of inheritance and that if you didn't breed carrier to carrier that you could get rid of it. Research so far doesn't show that it is transferred in Havanese quite that simply. Malamute folks in that research department were asked but no one remembered a Malamute with one bowed leg.

The most interesting thing that the Texas A&M study found were that the dogs who had CD, of which some also had other health problems, had at least 113 different genes than the normal healthy dogs. This shows a Genetic Diversity problem as well as the health problems-not too little diversity but too much by including dogs who display the symptoms into the gene pool. You would think people would be interested in studying the Genetic Diversity background of their breed.

The Malamute folks figured out that the best way to eliminate CD in Malamutes was to stop breeding carrier to carrier and they figured out a way to do that before the DNA source can be isolated simply by not breeding them.

You can still find Malamute breeders pretty easily who go into long winded explanations about how it can't be helped and why they don't do the certification. People must still be buying their dogs.

I wouldn't rely on a vet's diagnosis just simply because he/she is a vet. I remember a thread on CD a year or longer ago on here about it where the owners vet had told her that it was okay because something like "all bulldogs had it and they were okay". This is enough to discount someone saying something and being believed simply because a vet said it. If you read the Bulldog standard, it calls for straight legs. Of course we've all seen bow legged Bulldogs but that doesn't mean it doesn't come from poor breeding. There was a picture in the Gazette a couple of years ago of a lineup in a Bulldog AKC ring from an angle that you could see all the dogs in the lineup's front legs. One dog had slight bowing. It was at the back of the line.

When we first started looking for our first Havanese we went to a number of breeders and I didn't notice at first that some had bowed legs because of course of the long hair. Our daughter got us into it and she was presenting several breeds for us to consider. I remember one conversation where I said, "We're not breeding dogs with bowed legs", in reference to one of the short legged breeds whe brought up. This was after we had visited several Havanese breeders. She responded, "Some Havanese have bowed legs". She was 8 years old.

There is no breed standard that calls for it. Even the short legged breeds state very specifically in their standards how much is acceptable in the ring.


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## Demetra (Mar 17, 2009)

*Fluffy's vet visit*

 Tom, Thanks for that info. I did visit the vet today, who noticed right away that her front legs were extra short and the crooked one leans out so that she could be hyperextending her wrist/ankle joint. She felt all the joints very carefully, noticed no obvious things wrong there, felt good muscle mass at her shoulder and leg, and couldn't ellicit a pain response from Fluf. She did recommend that I take Fluf for a consultation with an orthopedic vet, just so the specialist could tell me whether it's fine like it is, or whether it needs treatment (and/or surgery, I suppose) to prevent it making her lame later on in her life.

So, I guess that's where we're going next. But today, the vet listened to her heart and heard no murmurs or anything, which is very good. She said Fluffy is obviously a very healthy dog, we just need to see if an orthopedic vet thinks the crooked leg is going to get worse over time, and in that case, might need to be corrected somehow.

I'm not worrying so much now. Just gonna wait and see what the other vet says and go from there. She weighs 13.2 pounds and her little front legs are only about 5-6 inches long and crooked at that. Her back legs are about 8-9" or so. her chest is definitely a bit below her elbow. She's got the sloping topline allright...just like a jacked up old Camaro a friend of mine had in highschool!

Thanks again for all the info. Will post some pictures later on.

Demetra


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## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

Demetra--it sounds like you received good news on the overall health of your dog. I am hoping that your dog continues to present without disease.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Demetra,
Sounds like you've got a good plan, and I'm glad Fluffy checked out so well thus far, other than her legs. It sounds like you've got a good vet to refer you on to a specialist.


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## JCChaplin (Oct 2, 2007)

Hi,
Just want to let you know that last year at about 1 year old, my Hav had to be shaved down. It was then that we noticed his feet were turning out. I took him to the vet and she said there was a slight CD. He has absolutely no health problems. In addition, I posted pictures and Tom King was nice enough to look at them and comment. He said, from his experience, my Hav does not have CD, just a not so desirable front. You can probably find the pictures on the forum. So, I really do think that there are variations in the fronts of these dogs and it does not necessarily mean there are going to be other health problems. I hope that this is the case with fluffy!
Good Luck,
JCChaplin


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

*question for breeders on standard of Basset Hounds (curved legs)*

Okay, in wondering if some dogs are bred with curved front on purpose like has been discussed a few times on here. Am I reading this wrong or should the basset be bred with curved legs?

While I am definitely not saying Havanese should be, etc. I am curious if some dogs are. My old neighbor's bulldog (he was a pet) definitely was but I am curious about some breeds with a chest and short legs.



> 5. Moving toward, coming: The crook of the front leg follows the curve of the ribs so that the wrists are closer than the elbows. This proper positioning gives support in motion. (Forelegs moving outside the body instead of under it cannot give support. If the wrists are further out or if the rib cage is barrel shaped rather than oval, the displacement of support of the front legs results in a rolling gait with obvious effort and in extreme cases the feet may actually point inward, which is a serious fault. This aspect of movement is somewhat unusual in that the feet should be inclined outward to approximately the width of the elbows. A very exaggerated crook (fiddle front) or too straight a leg are both serious faults.
> 
> The observation of gait is the most important step in evaluating the structure of the Basset. The structure may, however, also be evaluated for placement and proportions in static balance or "posed." It should always be remembered, however, that skillful handling can disguise much in "posing" that cannot be disguised in gaiting.
> 
> ...


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Demetra, I'm glad you got to your vet and were referred to an orthopedic specialist. They are the only ones who can give a diagnosis of your dog and recommend treatment.

Arlene posted some really good information up above.


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

> So, I really do think that there are variations in the fronts of these dogs and it does not necessarily mean there are going to be other health problems.


More power to the statement that we need an official OFA grading system and testing and a database.


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