# New puppy is sick



## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

We just got our new puppy, he is so cute . But he was sick, has really loose stools, with blood, and was listless and wouldn't eat. The breeder must have seen the stools, as the first bm he had was bloody! I took him to our vet as soon as we got home. He said he had colitis and wouldn't rule out Toxidia is treating him for that. Also said that he is a hypoglycemic pup, so he gave us some high energy stuff for him to eat, and that is helping a lot, along with the med for toxidia and some stuff for his bowel movements. He wasn't too keen on the shots he was given either, said too often the breeders get them thru the mail, and they are left on the loading docks and not refridgerated properly, which reduces the effectivness, so we are going to do some boosters. Needless to say, I am not happy with the breeders. I did not get to see where they kept the pups, I did not get any papers saying that he was checked for health issues (except for a stool sample), I didn't get the CERF numbers for the parents. I suppose I could get my money back, but I fell in love with him, and will keep him. I just hope he doesn't have any other medical problems. I don't know if they did any BAER testing. They were supposed to have all that, but the guy we talked to on the phone was gone, only his wife was home, and we drove from Michigan to Florida to get the pup, so we weren't going to turn around and go home without him. He's doing better, but I thought we were going to lose him on the way home. I'm suspicious that we didn't get to see where the pups were kept, doesn't that sound funny to you guys?


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I am so sorry for you. He is adorable. And I think with good care, we hope he will turn around. I had similiar experience with our breeder, no papers, except worming and no pedigree. Jasper had loose stool as a puppy and low energy and he would vomit bile if he didn't eat a meal. He still a finicky eater-- but he is healthy and hearty. Good Luck. and send progress reports.


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

I feel so bad for you, I am so sorry your new puppy is not well. That must be very disappointing to get home with a sick puppy. I am gald he is doing better. He is really cute.

I just got a new puppy and it is hard. I was a nervous wreck. 

It does seem strange to me that if you drove all that way you did not get to see where the puppies were kept. 

Please let us know, how he is doing.


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## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

Thanks. When these little guys are just under 2 pounds, it sure doesn't take very much if they don't eat. It is scary. But he seems to be perking up, and we have a great vet where I live who I can call day or night.

Skiver already has such a neat personality, I can't wait until his is 100% and we can really play!


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

So sorry to hear about you experience with the new puppy. Glad he is doing better. So far, we lucked out with our two puppies. We got hem from breeders, but they weren't one of the more publicized breeders you see advertised. However, we did get to see at least one of the parents and where they were kept. You just never know!


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Oh my, that poor baby!! I know what you mean when you say you wouldn't go back for your $ as you already fell in love. I know that getting a pup is kinda like having a kid, you never know what they will "catch" later on, but the first day out - something is really wrong with that. My breeder for my three was also, not very advertised. She provided me (online) with the CERFs for the parents. I got to meet the parents, see where they were housed and where all the pups were kept. This was all on the day I picked mine up, as I never met them till they were 8 weeks. I am glad he is doing better. Mine is now 10 weeks old, and the most active thing I have ever seen!!!! Lots of love and a good vet will, I am sure, get him back to where he needs to be!!


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

Good luck with your new puppy. He is so adorable and hopefully with LOL he will be better soon. It does sound fishing. Especially without CERF etc. My breeder lets you view them online and then I verified them through CERF to make sure they were not false. Well, you had a bad experience but at least with you giving him LOL he should be all right. Who knows what would happen if you gave him back.

Best wishes. Keep us posted.


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## JodiM (Dec 28, 2006)

I would send the breeder's the bill from the vet, and let them pay it. 

Sorry he's sick, I hope he gets better soon.


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

I am so sorry to hear about the trouble you've had with your new puppy and am glad to hear that he is getting better.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Jolynn, How is he doing??? I agree, you should send the vet bill to the breeder with a note or letter from the vet stating that this is something that they had to have known about before releasing him to you.


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## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

Skiver is doing much better. His stools are more formed and there is no more red blood, so his little butt feels better . He is much more lively, so that energy food and the meds are doing the trick. What a difference!

Wow, this breed sure is a cute one! Such a little sweetie, and so playful. He really loves it when he makes me laugh, just gives me kisses like crazy. I can see why so many people here have more than one Havanese.

Thanks for all the well wishes. I do believe I will send the vet bill to the breeder. We keep trying to call them, but it's funny, it keeps going to the answering machine. Must have caller ID.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Glad he is doing better. Havanese Puppies are just the hardest to resist. They are just as loving as they get older too!!


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## Havlady (Aug 2, 2006)

*Sick pup*

I cannot tell you how many things are wrong with this. As a breeder this sounds like a nightmare to me. This is not the way things should go.
When you couldn't see where the pups were raised I would have run the other direction. No CERF's? Did you verify ANY health testing. CERF is the the tip - the parents should have CERF, BAER, OFA hips and patellas. Mine all have those 4 plus Elbows, LCP, Thyroid, Liver Function. I give all owners the verification stuff before they ever see me. It is also in their puppy books. Copies of all health certifications.
To verify CERF http://www.vmdb.org/verify.html
To verify OFA http://www.offa.org/search.html

Now the puppy I am pretty sure has Coccidia - if you would like to read about it try this link.
http://www.beaglesunlimited.com/beaglehealth_coccidiosis.htm

Also the size bothers me and the hypoglycemic. This should not be something you are dealing with. HAV puppies need to say with mom and siblings till at least 10 weeks and if small probably 12 weeks. Mine are barely weaned by 8 weeks. Also all of you that posted on this seem to think it is good she got the pup out of there. I think it is a shame she took the pup. I would have taken off the other direction - no questions asked. Bleeding hearts is why puppy mills and back yard breeders do such a great business. I would rather send home the healthiest pup around and not have the new owners go through any of this. You pay a lot of money for a health well socialized pup but you are all justifying what this breeder is doing. I hope the health issue right now is all you run into but I wouldn't count on it. The best we can do as breeders is health test and put nothing but the healthest pups on the ground. I can't believe they would send home a pup with bloody diarrhea!
Its your money guys - but this is just wrong.
JMHO!


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## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

That's all well and good, but we were promised the documentation when we agreed to buy the pup. I didn't know that 8 weeks was too young for a Hav pup to leave his mom. But then again, we were lead to believe that the pup was older, I was surprised that he was as young as he was. I tried to get a list of good breeders from havanese.org, but did not get a reply, so went with a well advertised breeder that had several AKC champions.

We traveled from Michigan to Florida, had paid the downpayment, the guy we talked to was gone, and just the wife was there. He had said all the right things, and with showing dogs, we figured he had to have done all the testing, and said that we would have all the papers. Doesn't the AKC require testing of some sort?

Please don't chastise me for not knowing. Next time I will know better. I'll look for a breeder more like yourself. But maybe breeders should be better regulated? Isn't there licensing involved?

I just wanted a puppy to love, that's all. Didn't mean to be a 'bleeding heart'.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

I dont think you are a "bleeding heart" and I can tell you that I was lucky to come across my breeder, as years ago I did not do too much research when I got my first. I could have been in the same boat as you! Once you have him it is hard to walk away & I am sure when you are ready for the next - which I am sure you will be at some time - we can all recommend some better more reliable breeders.


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## Havlady (Aug 2, 2006)

*sick puppy*

That's all well and good, but we were promised the documentation when we agreed to buy the pup. So why didn't you get it when you picked up the puppy?

I didn't know that 8 weeks was too young for a Hav pup to leave his mom. But then again, we were lead to believe that the pup was older, I was surprised that he was as young as he was. When you picked up the pup and saw the size and the age - did you not question it?

I tried to get a list of good breeders from havanese.org, but did not get a reply, so went with a well advertised breeder that had several AKC champions. www.havanese.org has lots of buyerd education and a full section health testing - all you have to do is read it.
We traveled from Michigan to Florida, had paid the downpayment, the guy we talked to was gone, and just the wife was there. He had said all the right things, and with showing dogs, we figured he had to have done all the testing, and said that we would have all the papers. But you left without all that stuff - did you get the full registered names of the parents at least?

Doesn't the AKC require testing of some sort? AKC is just a registry - they are there to police that who your puppy is out of is really who they are out of. Parent clubs suggest the recommended health testing - it is up to the breeders to do and the buyers to police the breeders. A breeder can't sell pups if they buyers won't buy them.

Please don't chastise me for not knowing. Next time I will know better. I'll look for a breeder more like yourself. I am not chastising you. I am chastising all the rest that are agreeing you should have taken the pup. You know in your heart what to do and then you live with the consquenses.

But maybe breeders should be better regulated? Isn't there licensing involved? Licesnsing involved for commercial breeders definitely - did you ask to see it? I don't know who you bought from and really don't care - but you need to make sure in your mind all is as he told you and I think you knew things weren't exactly what they should have been when you got there. I commend you for going to get the pup - instead of just having it shipped. I have no doubt you will be a good home and the pup is in a better place.

I just wanted a puppy to love, that's all. Didn't mean to be a 'bleeding heart'.
This is why pets stores and puppy mills and back yard breeders are in business. If they couldn't sell the pups - they would quit breeding them. It all comes down to education and getting the point across the puppy buyers. I wish I knew how to do that.

If there was a way to educate the public - I would be doing it. One of the biggest problems is gettiing the point across to the buying public BEFORE they spend money on a sick pup. You have the right to get a healthy pup from the begining and the puppy has the same rights.


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## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

We did get the full AKC names of the parents, we did not just pick up the pup on the side of the road in a box. I also asked about the age, but she said that 8 weeks was normal for them to let their pups go, and he was a little on the small side, but okay. I've had big dogs, this is my first toy breed. He's quite different from my purebred Bouvier and Rotweiller that I had. I realized the next day that this pup was probably just weened. We are working through this.

I think that I was so tired from driving and so infatuated with this pup, that I didn't think to check the folder with the health papers, just took her word that they were in there. I looked at the vet paper (which my vet took a copy of, I think he's calling that guy), but didn't check the rest.

My vet is treating Skiver with a sulva drug, so that if he has Coccidia, it will take care of it. Interesting to note that when we called the breeder from the road, he said to take it to the vet and get Albon, which is one of the drugs for Coccidia. Wonder if he has a problem there? Is there an agency to report him to?

I did read all of havanese.org, which is why I knew about the testing, and why I asked the breeder about it. He assured me he did testing, and that he tracked his line. He wants us to keep the dog for show, but I don't want to, don't want to give him more business.

The reason I drove over 3000 miles in 4 days was to get a dog from a breeder and not a pet store. I assumed (falsely I guess) that a person who shows dogs and has champions would be a responsible breeder.

I guess this can serve as a warning, but I really don't feel I did anything wrong. I went with good faith, did everything I was supposed to do, but perhaps I wasn't as pushy and suspicious as I should have been. At least not as knowledable about the breed. Nevertheless, I have a beautiful puppy that I'm sure will be just fine. I saw 2 of his half-siblings, and his mom, they were healthy and happy looking.


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## Havlady (Aug 2, 2006)

*Sick pup*

If you got the parents full names you can verify what has been done on
either of the links I gave you.
Did you get the puppy's papers? You should have a full size sheet which is the litter form - that you submit to AKC to get your papers. You are entitled to this and this can be reported to AKC if you didn't get papers.

As far as the coccidia - we pretreat for that wiht Albon and for Giardia with Panacur.

At 4 weeks everyone gets treated for 5 days with Panacur and for 10 days with Albon. Then we check after that - but it is hard to get either to show up in the stools. You just have to keep testing. Sometimes the lab test is much more comprehensive than the flotation. So we usually end up doing that around 10 weeks.

You are right - in a perfect world - someone that shows should be health testing and a responsible breeder - unfortunately some people don't care about their kids let alone their dogs. Dogs are disposable. You just have to do the best you can - and I would have been really fried after driving all that way - and I probably would have been hard pressed to leave the pup - but this whole senario just makes me mad! You just can't trust anyone any more and you shouldn't have even run into this. So much for a perfect world.


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## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

No, we didn't get the pup's papers. I'm going to report that one to the AKC. I know we won't get the limited AKC papers until he gets fixed, but Yeah, I thought we were supposed to get his pedigree.

Nope, not a perfect world. And I couldn't leave the pup. He came into my arms and kissed me right away and just melted; then my heart melted too.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

So now what? This was a supposed "good" breeder with show dogs. When you research a breeder through AKC or HCA, you tend to get the same people listed as breeders. Should we trust these lists if this is going to happen? As consumers we can only do so much research. This breeder knew that you were driving a long way and once you saw the puppy, you weren't leaving without it. If you do send any letters, vet bills, etc., please make sure you send them certified mail so you have a paper trail, and keep copies of everything for yourself.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Hi Jolynn, I am so glad skivers is doing better. 

It's hard to argue with havlady- everything she says may be true--but there is an arrogance to so many Havanese breeders out there, in my experience it is hard to get a straight answer or even get into a conversation. i was denied an interview with a breeder who thought working from home 3-5 days a week was not enough. 

I would not get a puppy from a pet store or a puppymill more because of the behavioral problems than the health issues. The truth is every breeder has good puppies and not so good puppies. Getting a puppy is the luck of the draw in most cases--even from good breeders. 

And in any case, my vet told me that coccidia is a very common puppy thing. And that during the transition to a new home that too is not uncommon for there to be bouts of hypoglycemia. 

It sounds like perhaps your breeder was not the best- or maybe it was just this one time. But you have an adorable little pup who, is making you smile and is lucky to have found you. 

As a first time dog owner (due to allergies) I truly believe we find the dog we were meant to have (just like they say about a house.) Jasper is nothing like I invisioned. But I can't imagine having any other dog (except maybe another Hav pal for Jas.) 

So please don't feel chastized. You just fell in love. And that is one lucky puppy.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

I am so sorry this has happened to you. I do agree with Joan though, as it is "buyer beware" when you are buying a living animal. Getting the "papers" isn't the pedigree, those are two different things. The AKC registration application is given to the owner at the time they pick up their puppy and the owner submits to AKC to get their AKC registration papers. Some breeders withhold those papers until they receive proof of spaying/neuter. Having so many "puppymill" type breeders in this country, who by the way are now showing some of their dogs to make themselves seem legitimate, makes it hard on good breeders who really are breeding for the right reason, and that is to improve the breed. 

HCA and most local Havanese dog clubs work hard at trying to EDUCATE the public. However, we live in a society that when they decide they want something, they don't want to wait for it, or they don't want to pay what they deem is a lot of money. I am in California, and the president of the local club here in N. CA, and I get lot's of complaints from puppy buyers that bought their Havanese from a "breeder" that they are now having issues with. Typically it is the same breeder's I get complaints about, and none of them are members of our local club, much less any club. I encourage people to be patient, do your homework, look up testing results of sire and dam, ALWAYS ask to see the parents and other littermates BEFORE you pick up your puppy if at all possible, go to dog shows and meet breeders and ask lot's of questions. There are several great breeders in the greater Michigan area who also have wonderful web sites. It is a shame you didn't find any of them first. 

You are being a WONDERFUL Havanese mommy and you are doing all the right things now. Hang in there, and know that there are many wonderful, good people that are always willing to help in the Havanese community.


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## DAJsMom (Oct 27, 2006)

Best wishes for you and your puppy. 

If nothing else, this discussion will hopefully educate future buyers out there.

We decided early on that we wouldn't get a puppy from a breeder that was farther than a reasonable drive, so that we could visit and be comfortable with the situation. And we were willing to wait as long as necessary to find the right puppy.


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

I just think a lot of people can learn from this experience. I am glad you said you didn't get a response from the Havanese club on the breeders list because I didn't either.

I know Melissa and Tom started a section on what to ask for when looking for a puppy. Guys! Can we expand on this and then lock it? Not for comments just for reading. Or do you think Havanese Club hits most of the questions? Maybe we just need to list research sites?

I wasn't aware that breeders should have a license. That was my beef on another thread because I thought there was no controlling agency. Does this differ per state? Maybe we can list some clues that let you know that you may be looking at a puppy mill. I know I saw listings of posted registrations to watch out for. If they weren't AKC they were registrations that puppy mills use. I will try to find that info to share.

What do you think?


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Jolyn Im sick about your situation. I just wonder how this can be prevented in the future. I know exactly how it happened and why you took the puppy. Im not sure I wouldnt have done the same thing, because who would want to leave it there????? 

Im so glad he is doing better and you are starting to see his Hav spirit. 

On a side note, these people should be held responsible in some way. And more than just the vet bills. Would you want someone else going through this? And Im sure there are people are right now dealing with this, everyone who got a dog out of the litter. 

I dont know if you can file a complaint with AKC, but I would. Also I would post where you got it. You dont have to slander the breeder and leave yourself liable, but say we got this puppy here xxxxx and this was the condition of the puppy, our experience and what the vet said. Maybe someone will say, Hey we were going to go there but now we are not. 

It sounds like a typical puppy mill situation even if they are running it out of their house. Or at least some very irresponsible breeder.

Seems like it easier to buy something on ebay and feel safe than buying a 2,000 dollar dog from a good breeder. At least on ebay sellers are rated and buyers can post their experience. Maybe thats what we need a breeder rating system from the owners. There has to be an answer to prevent these type of people from being in business. And to make new buyers aware. So many people are like yourself. They ask the right questions but are lied to. 

Any ideas on how to prevent this type of thing?

Also, Joan means well she is just direct. It comes from years of frustration seeing this happen to so many people. But forums like this where people can read about other peoples experience may help!!! 

Good luck!


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

OK Melissa you are scaring me. We were posting the same thing at the same time. I am sure Joan means well. I bet that good breeders get soooooo frustrated over these bad breaders.

I am for a rating system? Do you mean on our site or that National Club should allow a rating? You have to watch out for liability but maybe that is something AKC can put us in a direction of.

I also would like to suggest if we contact the National Havanese Club if they would add this site to their links. I know other national clubs have links to forums.


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Wow Rita, we even BOTH posted at 7:21. 

Well I know that the HCA wouldnt implement a rating system, that would open a can of worms. And Im not sure it would work, but it works for EBAY! I can get a waffle iron safer than I can buy a puppy! 

Im dissapointed to hear the HCA site was nonresponsive to the breeder list. I also heard you have to pay to be on their breeder list. So I think if a breeder doesnt have a current litter, they may not pay to be on it. I dont think it should be a profit matter when it comes to educating the public on the good breeders. I think they should compile a list of "Breeders in Good Standing" and as long as they dont meet certain requirements they would be on it. BUT who knows if that would ever happen. 

And I doubt the HCA would put this link on their site, they would have no control over it or what is on it. I know its silly, but its so political as is the entire dog world. Not saying anything bad about that, other than thats the way it is. 

Here is how I got my dogs. I found a local club in my area. I contacted the contact person for it asking for breeders in my area. She gave me the ladies name who sends out the breeder referral list. I then found two on it in Texas. Just two.... I contacted one who didnt call me back and then the second who was Joan. I waited several months and I contacted a couple of people..on her insistance to find out more about Havs and her. 

SO maybe because I got the ladies name direct and didnt go through the HCA site, I got the breeder list faster. But we can not criticize people for not finding the good breeders if it takes an act of congress to get the info!

I agree about the Breeder questions, Im going to make that a sticky and we will eventually make a read only thread after people have added everything to it. Good suggestion!


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

I really dont like to hear yall are going to the HCA site, but not having any luck getting info on breeders. I just sent out a couple of emails to the masses inquiring why? We keep telling you to go there, and then you dont get a response. Thats not good. 

I will keep you posted.


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

Wow. Good idea. Glad you know some people. I sent an email Dec 29 to [email protected]. I still have it saved if you need it forwarded. I figured it was the holiday and that is why I didn't get an answer. That is when I went to the local club listing and did my research.

Maybe suggest an automated response. "Your email was received and you will be contacted shortly........"

Thanks Melissa.


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## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

Thanks for all the support, guys. Skiver (prounounced Skyver, a scottish name) is doing so much better! What a cute, active dog he is now! His personality is coming out, his mischief and his playfullness.

I think one of the reasons we went so far away was the availability of the pup. My husband did this for me as I was having a very rough time of late. My Father passed away Dec 1 and our last dog passed away Dec 3. Guess Daddy needed a doggy in heaven. Our Rottie died 2 years ago, I still miss him so very much, he was the best dog I've had so far. My DH wanted to put a pup under the tree for me, but couldnt get one in time. I'd been wanting a Hav for a while, we'd been researching them. We went to a petsmart and saw some dogs that were rescued, I would break out in tears at them, I was pathetic. I wanted to take them all home. At that time, DH had been already talking to the breeder without my knowing it.

I think I needed this pup more than he needed us. 

I'll post some pics later.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

I am so glad to hear that he is doing better. I am sure all the love he is getting is a big help too!!!


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Hey Jolynn,

It great to hear that your pup is doing better and is acting more and more like a Hav. You have been a wonderful mommy.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I would have to agree with the idea a lot of people end up with a backyard breeder or a puppy mill dog because of the rush. I also think if a lot of owners took the a little bit of time or a little education, they wouldnt have purchased the dog they did.

My Dora is from a backyard breeder, a really nice lady personally but not a good breeder. She even let me take Dora for a trial weekend to make sure she got along with my maltese. I was in her home, saw her dogs, played with them, they had great personalities. But she didn't show them, she breed what she liked, she didnt health test. Thank goodness, I have been very fortunate with what has happened so far. My good friend bought her yorkie from a backyard breeder and has had 2 liver shunt surgeries already.

I am involve with New Member's orientation at my local training club. We just had all the Christmas puppies show up and there are tons of designer dogs and pet store puppies. Most of those mixes are of the toy variety too.

Being involved with Havanese Rescue- I have handed out pamplets on responsible breeders. I take Dora to many places for pet demos, therapy visits and I always get the people who want a havanese too. I hand them the pamphlets and hope they read them. Our rescue group often puts on many booths each year and we have an actually demo of a puppy mill. I fostered a puppy mill owner turn in this year, for behavioral issues.

I was driving down the road to the training center last night and there was a giant billboard that had a photo of adorable puppies behind wires. It said www.puppymilltruth.org and it is about educating the general public. Here in Columbus, we have a few pet stores that sell puppies and then to the east, we have the Amish who breed them. I previously worked in advertising and know what a billboard like this cost let alone there are currently 3 of them up! It is a new ad by the HSUS.

I found a link off there for all the things you should look for in a reputable breeder
http://www.hsus.org/web-files/PDF/Good_breeder.pdf

so they are not only attacking the puppymills but also the backyard breeders. The HSUS said 1/4 turn ins, is a pure breed dog. I think the education is the hardest step, we also are faced with the people we educate who take the easy route anyway.

Just some thoughts,
Amanda


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

I had no problem getting the breeder list from HCA site. However, I didn't end up with any of those breeders, because they were either too expensive, didn't have a puppy at the time, or were too particular. Maybe they should have questionnaires for people having babies. I had two dogs who lived to be 17yrs and 16yrs and were never sick, and a cat who lived to 20 who died of natural causes. 

I found my first puppy on a website, and it just seemed that due to some really strange circumstances that put us together, this was MY puppy. I didn't ask a lot of questions, because I didn't know I should. So, when I got Kodi's pedigree from the AKC, I was very happily surprised to see his champion bloodlines. I then researched all of the dogs in his background, and I'm not sorry we went this route. It's really sad that people can be so uncaring when it comes to "breeding". A friend of mine said to me yesterday, "I'm going to pick up my puppy at the airport tomorow. It's a Boglen and we got it from a breeder in Missouri." It's a beagle/boston terrier cross.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Jolyn, I am so glad that Skivers is doing so well. And truly, to all:I meant no dis-respect to Joan or any other HAV breeders. Your story combined with her response just really pushed a button. I have heard great things about Jolain Havanese and I am sure, as a good breeder, it must be frustrating to hear such stories. Great News that your Hav can be Hav.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

How long was the wait for the breeder referral list from the HCA? I saw one date of request on Dec. 29 but no other and that's not that long ago. I know that Kay, who usually responds went back to her home over the holidays and she did loose her husband this past year. She puts a LOT of time into it. The good thing about email is that it does not require constant attention. There are volunteers who do the replying. Also were there follow-up inquiries sent? I have never heard of any problems before. Patience and research should reward puppy buyers with a healthy puppy. This is the fastest growing breed in the AKC. There are more people breeding with only the requirements of papers and plumbing than the handful that actually know and care what they are doing.

The following is just information for anyone just reading this thread out of curiosity.

Another good way to find a good Havanese is by a referral from a happy owner. Almost 100% of the puppies we sell are to people who know or have met people who have bought our puppies. We don't advertise. We don't seek out show homes. There is always a wait, although not as long as it used to be. We have never had a puppy available NOW and I don't know other good breeders who do either although circumstances do change. Most people who buy our puppies come and spend hours visiting before they decide that they are ready for a puppy. Never buy a puppy from someone whose home and dogs are not available for a visit by you. 

Having an AKC Championship, in the big scheme of things, means very little as far as the health and future of dogs bred. This is not to discount a Championship, as most of ours are finished, but it really means nothing as far as getting a puppy. Most judges who have done the judging thus far have only been qualified to judge Havanese simply because they already were qualified to judge the Toy Group when AKC accepted the Havanese. Many have finished in the first years who wouldn't even get points today. There is a lot of effort put into educating judges now so things will get better in the ring in the future. Just put a title at the bottom of the list when looking for parents of your new baby.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Melissa, There's more going on here now than on the big list. I would bet that if Kay received an email that it would get replied to-maybe not immediately but definately.


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

Tom King said:


> How long was the wait for the breeder referral list from the HCA? I saw one date of request on Dec. 29 but no other and that's not that long ago. .


Hey Tom. I am not sure about Jolynn but I was the one on Dec. 29. I figured they were on holiday or something was wrong so I used the local club information to continue my research. I thought maybe the email was wrong because I didn't receive an auto response. Melissa was going to check into it but I guess your comment explains everything.

I did suggest an auto email reponse that said something like "your request has been received and we will contact you shortly." Just because sometimes you wonder if you hit an active address. I will try again just because who knows maybe I did something wrong.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Here's a good place for suggestions such as the auto response. Such suggestions are welcomed. The demand for Havanese has grown exponentially in just the past few years. I know for a fact that Kay spends hours on the phone every day talking to people looking for Havanese and I think there are about 30 breeders on the recommended list now.

http://www.hcaforums.tallcedars.com/index.php


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

The auto-response is probably a pretty good idea. At least people would know that their inquiry had been received. I know how volunteer positions can evolve into something VERY demanding, and I don't think anyone has a problem with the person responsible for responding, AT ALL, just that there should be a timely response. It's a huge responsibility for one person, because it's so important. Maybe HCA could consider asking more people to help in that area. Because if prospective owners don't get a fast response, they will seek other avenues very quickly. That's just the way it is. People want a puppy and they want it now. I don't see that changing, so the way prospective owners are assisted in their search is possibly the thing that needs to change. I also had to send more than a few emails to get a response. This was a few years ago, and things may be different now. Just seems to me a link to 'How to Find a Great Havanese Breeder' should be flashing in neon across the whole home page. LOL That seems to be most the most important research anyone can do, and should be the easiest info to find. I did my own research and thankfully and very luckily stumbled on to a dedicated breeder who does all the right things. Things often don't work out nearly so well.
Just some thoughts.
Dawna


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## DrDale (Jan 13, 2007)

*Now that is a cool name*

Hi Jolyn & Skyver,
He looks so cute and sounds like he is doing much better. I had my first Havanese in our office over the holidays and just fell in love with the pup. What a wonderful breed. I have had my practice for well over 30 years and never seen a breed like that little Havanese, he just stole everyones heart.

Dale


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Tom I agree with you 100%! And I agree, go to the HCA forums and make suggestions. The autoresonders would be great. And in NO way was I questioning Kay. I asked for a list over two years ago. Kay sent it to me in two days and apologized for the delay. I still have that email. I was worried that the requests going through the website were not getting to her. 

And I have heard about people not getting a response, not just from this thread. I do NOT think it is her, I think its the email. You cant rely on it. There has to be a better way of informing people. Dawna and I talk about this all the time. And it includes things you said. Its not all about the Championship. Many breeders claim champions in their bloodlines. How do you weed out the bad ones? How do we get people to the good ones?

I have some ideas, they may work, they may tank. I got nothing but good responses from my posts on the big lists. So people are open to ideas. 

So many people dont know a happy owner. While the Havanese is fast growing, its still rare. I found out about Havanese from Barbara Walters. And while MANY people dont like that, ( I have argued w/ them trust me) Im SO glad she talked about hers, or I wouldnt have mine. I went to the internet and searched and searched. I would have NEVER went through the Texas local club had I not had a previous bad experience w/ a pet store. 

People in general dont know pet stores can be bad. They dont always watch Dateline, maybe they have never had a bad experience. You always want to believe the best in people. 

So when people go to the Havanese website, it does need to scream, here is how you find the right breeder! 

Otherwise they go there and read about them, then go find one somewhere else. You cant cure impatient people, but if they have options, they just may wait. Its all about information. In an internet world, that information needs to be fast. If its not, we will deal with Rescue more and more. 
Meaning people will wait for a good thing, but if they never find out about the good thing, they will take what they get. 
Im sure that made no sense!


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## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

Tom:
I put my request for a breeder referrral in on Dec 18th. I guess it was more to check if my breeder was on the list. We had already been talking to him at that time. I've been told by a hav club in his state that he is currently out on show circuit and that's probably why we didn't get the proper papers yet, and they are going to help us rectify the situation.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Hello Joann and Skiver 

I was so very sorry to read about your experience with poor Skiver, sick as he was.  Poor guy was so tiny too! Oh my. Nice to know he's doing so much better since those first few days!

It is heartbreaking and frustrating to hear stories about so-called purebred breeders that get their sick, weak puppies out there so they can make a fast buck. 

This is a great thing to get out there, to let people know that it is so crucial to really research and make sure you are doing the right thing by buying from a certain breeder. No, it's not something we automatically know to do, so there should be more and more websites and warnings about this kind of thing so that when we research new puppies, breeds and purchasing, these sites pop out at us and scream for our attention! 

I was lucky in that I really had a lot of time to research. Hubby did not want a dog, whereas I really wanted one from almost 2 years ago! I spent many hours, many nights on this computer, getting all the information I could just on owning a pup. Then came the decision to get a Havanese if I could ... anyway, hubby finally agreed and we set all the wheels in motion. I was looking for a rescue, but the woman there had none so referred me to this breeder... 3 hr. drive from here. 

Long story, short... we got our lovely Ricky from her mid-Sept. Before that, I asked questions... LOADS of questions! I apologized for being so inquisitive, but she never made me feel silly and always answered and asked some questions of her own. This reassured me a lot as it was one thing they say is a sign of a good breeder - they want to be sure they are placing their cherished babies into good, forever homes! 

I live in Canada, so not sure how the CKC works with lists of breeders... 

Anyway, yes there were signs that the breeder you bought from wasn't very professional or conscientious, but I'm glad your little guy is in your care and no longer in theirs. It would be wonderful to point your finger at them and let the world know of your story! Hopefully, along with other people's bad experiences, it will be even easier for buyers to steer clear away from this type of business that only cares about the bottom line.

Give your sweet Skiver a belly rub for me 'k ?


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## anniemj (Jan 8, 2007)

Laurief,
I am looking for a havanese and live in NJ can you make any suggestions of breeders I should look into

thanks
annie


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## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

Wow, did Skiver ever like that Canadian belly rub!!

I hope you guys realize that we didn't pick up our dog from an awful dirty place or anything. I still think it was more a miscommunication than anything and we will still get our papers yet. Even some of you have said that Coccidia is common with pups.

Skiver is active, mischievious, and having the typical potty-training issues that all puppies have now (sigh). Thanks for all your concerns, I know you all wish well, but really, it wasn't a puppy mill and it wasn't a pet store. I do know better than that. Let's end this conversation!


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## Pennylite (Jan 22, 2007)

*Liver Shunt*

I brought our "teeny tiny" Havanese, Darby, home on September 19th at 11 weeks. I flew from New Hampshire to Kansas City (the breeder, Lynda Denson, lives in Olpe, KS) and the exchange was made at the airport. I had many red flags, but foolishly ignored them. For instance, I sent her several buyer questions early on, and for anything that related to a certification of any kind, her response was something like, "He's a pet, not a show dog." She then wrote me a ranting email, which I have saved, that I must be talking to AKC folks, who she seems to think are militant (SHE is militant!). She does have some AKC registered dogs, but her main organization is APRI. She would not allow me to come to Kansas to see our puppy, or see their facilities. There is much more to this story, but again, I foolishly sent in a $500 deposit, and ended up paying $3,500 for our puppy because he was bred to be so small, thus the justification for the high price. On the morning after Thanksgiving, while we were out of town, I received a frantic phone call from the owner of the kennel we've always used and love, to tell me Darby had been taken to the emergency hospital.  He has been just fine then the next morning, could not walk, was disoriented, etc. We flew right home. The doctor at emergency tried giving him dextrose just in case it was low blood sugar, but no response. In the end everything pointed to a liver shunt. Once he was stable from medication, we were allowed to take him home and the next day he saw our vet. Again, everything points to a liver shunt or micro vascular displasia (many, many miniscule liver shunts that cannot be closed off). He goes in for surgery tomorrow. We are hoping for the single liver shunt that can be closed off, thus stopping the toxins from getting into his blood stream. He has been on two medications since that day, twice a day, plus a special diet three times a day to fatten him up for surgery. I let the breeder know and of course, she claims NONE of her dogs have ever been sick -- not one. Now liver shunts are a genetic and deadly defect in the Havanese breed and this woman has bred many, many, many Havanese, so it goes against the odds that Darby is the only dog ever to have this problem. Her only "consolation" was that if he dies she will give us another Havanese. I am so angry  with her right now, we are having no contact whatsoever. I am waiting until after the surgery tomorrow to think about whether we have a leg to stand on. We will never give Darby back. We fell in love with him just through his photos and he is the most adorable, loving, fun and funny dog I've ever known. Has anyone had a Havanese who was diagnosed with a liver shunt? I've tried to post pics but this site rejects it every time. My very best to you,, Jolynn. Penny


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## Olliesmom (Sep 29, 2006)

I am so sorry for all you are going thru - my neighbor went thru a breeder and thought it was reputuable paid $1500 and found out from the vet that not only does she need knee surgery in both knees ($3500) and that the dog was stamped which means it came from Russia...My girlfriend is devasted but loves her puppy and is doing the surgery ....

Just know you are not alone in happenings like this...doesn't make it any easier but don't blame yourself....

I too have problems uploading pictures - they get rejected - and I have tried more than ! computer - here is the error that I get....

does anyone have any suggestions?

Warning: copy(/home/havanese/public_html/photopost531/data/500/medium/IMG_0311.JPG) [function.copy]: failed to open stream: Permission denied in /photopost531/image-inc.php on line 124

Warning: imagejpeg() [function.imagejpeg]: Unable to open '/home/havanese/public_html/photopost531/data/500/medium/IMG_0311.JPG' for writing in /photopost531/image-inc.php on line 142

Warning: filesize() [function.filesize]: Stat failed for /home/havanese/public_html/photopost531/data/500/medium/IMG_0311.JPG (errno=2 - No such file or directory) in /photopost531/image-inc.php on line 731

Warning: fread(): supplied argument is not a valid stream resource in /photopost531/image-inc.php on line 731

I REALLY wnat to post but just can't!!

Ollies mom


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Penny,
I am soooo sorry to hear about your pain. While buying a puppy from even health tested parents isn't a guarantee that offspring will be free of health issues, it at least is better then doing nothing at all like this woman (can't call her a breeder sorry, as she isn't doing what is best for the breed) has done. It sounds like this lady is most likely producing lot's of puppies with liver shunts if she is producing lot's of small puppies, doesn't health test her breeding dogs, and won't talk to her buyers. 

It would be wonderful if more talk show hosts would help spread the word on how to properly purchase animals. While breed clubs, kennel clubs, and breeders do what we can to get the word out, it still isn't enough. 

I hate hearing stories like your's, as it is so wrong not only to you for having to go through what you have, but also the puppy. 

I will say a special prayer tonight for Darby. Please keep us posted on how he does.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Penny,
My thoughts and prayers are with you too. I had a good friend who actually did the breeder research and got a yorkshire puppy that had a liver shunt. She took the dog and it ended up having two surgeries at Michigan State. She got her puppy the same time I got my maltese, Belle was an ounce smaller than her at 9 weeks. Bonnie wasn't getting much bigger as she got older where as Belle was. Then my friend noticed blood in the urine. At the time of selecting Bonnie, Monica wanted one of the "teacup" size dogs. Here I was hoping my maltese got bigger! She seemed too little. Bonnie was from a good breeder who offered to replace her and take her back. However, my friend was in love with that puppy (she had her for 8 month at this point) and wanted to make sure she had any help. She did end up having to have a second surgery like 6 months later. The breeder also gave her the puppy's purchase price back to help with the vet bills. However she is now 4 years old and weighs 6lbs and is pretty healthy. She is on a special kibble but that is it at this point.

Amanda


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

Penny. Good luck tomorrow. We will be thinking and praying for Darby. Please post asap so we know how he is doing.


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Penny Im devestated to hear this! I hope Darby is ok. It makes me so mad that this is happening to people. Not only did she sell you a small hav, she charged you extra?!!! Darby will make it through and be a tough little guy! 

Keep us posted. 
Melissa


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Hi Penny,

I am so sorry for what you are going through. I'll keep my fingers (and toes) crossed that everything goes smoothly for Darby tomorrow. 

All the best,


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## Pennylite (Jan 22, 2007)

*Darby and his liver shunt*

Thank you all for your kind words. I appreciate it so much. As you all know, a Havanese is just the most wonderful dog and we adore him. We are dreading tomorrow, but are trying to think positive just the same and hope that Darby comes out of this in a way that he can live a normal and full life.

Originally, I didn't know there were sizes smaller than the standard, and know now that it's not good to breed dogs in a manner that forces them to be smaller than nature planned for them to be. Our vet told me "This is what happens when breeders try to change the breed." Although, whether Darby is small or not, it sounds as though liver shunts are common to the breed regardless. In the beginning, I was just planning to buy the standard size Havanese and had researched different breeds for about two years. When I came across this breed, I knew it was the perfect breed for me (us). Eventually, I came across this breeder who also breeds minis and teeny tinies. I was thrilled, not knowing it is frowned upon by the AKC and that these sizes are not acceptable as show dogs, etc. However, Darby is a pet, and by the time I learned all that I know now, it was too late. I loved him and had not even seen him in person yet! The breeder, Lynda Denson, claims the teeny tinies are "rare" and that is why she charges so much. After Darby became ill, even though I thought I had done so much research, I found a site warning buyers not to fall for the "rare" claim and pay an exorbitant price, that there were non-reputable breeders out there making this claim. Boy, was I upset when I read that! When I told Lynda about the site, she was very angry at me.

Kathy, I agree with you, I wish there were a forum to let people have an avenue to learn more about bad breeders and simply educate the public on what to look for and find a way for buyers to have some recourse. And, as in eBay, allow complaints to be publicly filed. The breeder we used came off as very religious, kind and good, but once I started asking questions, her true personality came through. And of course, once again, when she learned I was upset about Darby being sick. She was extremely defensive. At first, she was so sorry, but when she knew that I had been doing some investigating, she became very annoyed with me and called ME unstable. 

If you go to http://www.wheatstate.com/~denson/, and scroll down quite a ways, you can see what Darby looked like at six weeks. His coloring on his face has changed dramatically .. more champagne with black and brown. His parents were "Empress Maude (Maudie)" and "Marmaduke (Duke)" who you can see at the beginning of the site.

Thank you all again for being so kind. Darby will be hospitalized for 2-3 days, but we should know the results at least during the day tomorrow. I will write again when I know more. I am so glad I found this forum. Penny


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

Penny. He is adorable. LOL.  Sometimes you find out things too late. That is OK. We have all been there. Hopefully, Melissa's area about breeders would help other people. One point we can make, stay away from people who say they breed for small size. Actually run like hell....... LOL. Keep us posted.


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## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

Penny:
I'm so sorry your little one is so sick; I'm hoping for the best for you. 
We are taking Skiver back into the Vet today, once again, we were up with him last night, he is so congested, he was hacking and sneezing and having such a hard time. After 8 days on the antibiotics, I was hoping he'd be better. We'll know more today, but he slept a lot yesterday and seems 'punky' today, so back to the vet we go, 3 times since we got him the first week of this month.

Seems disappointing when you expect a well puppy, and you don't get that experience  I hope Darby will be okay.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Penny - so sorry to hear about Darby - is is adorable. We will keep him in our prayers!! Let us know how he does. 

and I am so sad to hear that Skiver is STILL sick?!??! My pups were def. better after 8 days of the antibiotic. Good thing you are taking him back in. 

Laurie


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Penny, my heart goes out to you, I sincerely hope all goes well for Darby. I am extremely appalled by the mentality of these so-called "breeders" - we obviously know they are not. I am sending out positive energy to you and Darby for a speedy recovery.
Joanne, I hope Skiver recovers soon, you have been through quite an ordeal and I also send out good vibes to both of you too.

I agree that some website that is recognized by the AKC and CKC needs to be put up, so that these "claim-to-be" breeders are put in their place - OUT of business. It is cruelty for Both the owners and the poor pups who have to suffer because of THEIR negligence and greed. 
I am hoping all the best for both Darby and Skiver.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Penny, I am sad and angry for you to read about your experience. Do you have any paperwork, any health guarantees, a contract? That is terrible!

I'm hoping the best for you and for Darby.

And, I don't know about liver shunts being common in the breed. I can say that I know or have had contact with hundreds of Havs in California and I don't know of any that have liver shunts. I have heard of many of the mini/"teacup"/dwarfs having liver shunts though.

No matter what, I hope the best for Darby.


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## anniemj (Jan 8, 2007)

*terrible news*

A neighbor of mine recently purchased a havanese puppy from a kennel it was 11 weeks old and had papers. Upon bringing the puppy home it immediately showed signs of sickness vomitting, diarreha, not eatting. She brought it to the vet 2 days later and it passed away. The autopsy said it had parvo.

I am currently looking for a puppy and am terrified that this will happen to us.

What are ways of preventing this terrible virus and how do you get it out of your house if it's been infected. Our kids play together and I want to keep them safe as well as our future puppy.

Any thoughts?


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Annie, I would recommend that you get the breeder to send you a copy of the contract ahead of time so you can review it - BEFORE you get attached to the puppy or even bring it home. If they don't have a health guarantee, then turn and walk away. (It should have a guarantee to be free of contagious/infectious diseases.) You should take your puppy to the vet within a day or so of getting it home to verify it doesn't have any illnesses and get a full physical done.


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## JodiM (Dec 28, 2006)

Penny~ Please keep us posted about Darby. I am so sorry to hear you are both going through this  

Annie~ One of the best ways to cut your chances of getting a sick dog is to research the breeder. Make sure the parents have the proper health testing (you can do a search here, or check the havanese site to verify what tests the dogs should have had), and that the results can be verified on the websites. (OR, get copies of them and verify they are legit)

You can ask to see their contract, and also check with other people who have purchased puppies from them previously.

If a breeder doesn't ask YOU a lot of questions about why you want the dog, how you plan on caring for it, etc.. then it probably isn't a good breeder. 
A good breeder is more concerned about where their puppies are going, and you will know that they are a good breeder after talking to them.
Someone that doesn't want to answer your ?'s, is probably not someone you want to buy from.

I also recommend that you go and check out their kennel. 
Do the dogs look like they are taken care of well? Do they breed more than one kind of dog? If they breed more than 2 types of dogs - BEWARE. It is actually preferable that they breed only 1 type of dog.. but 2 is the maximum.

Pick up the puppies, check them out. Do the same with the parents. The parents should have a good temper.. and will allow this, although occasionally the mom's will not if you are too close to their puppies- so you may have to do this in another room.

Good Luck, and remember- you are always taking a chance. You may research until you are blue in the face and still get a sick puppy... but the chances of that are cut drastically by purchasing from someone who is on the up and up, and truly cares about their dogs, and the breed.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Great tips, Jodi!


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## JodiM (Dec 28, 2006)

Havtahava said:


> Great tips, Jodi!


See, and y'all thought I was an airhead  J/K LOL


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## Pennylite (Jan 22, 2007)

*Darby's Liver Shunt results*

Hello, everyone. I just spoke to Darby's vet and Darby is out of the OR, but not awake yet, It did turn out to be a single shunt, which is what we were hoping for as opposed to multiple minuscule shunts. The shunt is completely ligated (the vet's term but it's closed off).  Darby will not be through with post op until 6 or 7 pm east coast time. He weighs 4-1/4 lbs, so he's much bigger than when this was first discovered and he was barely 2 lbs. The next critical time for him will be 48 hours from now. I am to call the vet back at 4:45 pm to get a better idea as to how Darby is doing. I am certain that all of your good wishes helped Darby get through this. I will let you know more as I know more. Thanks to all of you. Penny​


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Penny,

That's wonderful news, so glad to hear everything went well for little Darby (what cutie). Wishing him a speeding recovery and will look forward to your updates.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Penny,
That is great news!


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Penny, I'm so sorry that you and your puppy have had to go thru this. I'm glad to hear he is doing better. It seems that no matter what you do, these fly-by-night breeders sneak by us. 

When we got Shelby (Hav #2), my husband found the "breeder". I had phone conversations, numerous emails and one of the items we were supposed to get with the new puppy were CERF certificates for the parents. They somehow didn't make it with the puppy delivery, so I have emailed her several times and have had no reply. So far the puppy is healthy, but this is just not a nice thing to do. If she wanted to build up her business, I would have given great references. But now I will not, because she can't be trusted. I will have my puppies tested for my piece of mind. I am not breeding or shpwing, but want these guys with me for a long, long time.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

irnfit,
Sorry, I don't know your name, but even if you didn't copies of the CERF from the breeder, you can go to their web site and look up to see when the CERF was last done on the dogs. http://www.vmdb.org/cerf.html and you also check the OFA site if the dogs have had other testing done beside CERF, at www.offa.org.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Yay for Darby!! Good news - we will keep him in our thoughts to get him thru the next 48 hours.


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

Since I have been gone what is going on with Darby?


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## JodiM (Dec 28, 2006)

Pennylite said:


> I brought our "teeny tiny" Havanese, Darby, home on September 19th at 11 weeks. I flew from New Hampshire to Kansas City (the breeder, Lynda Denson, lives in Olpe, KS) and the exchange was made at the airport. I had many red flags, but foolishly ignored them. For instance, I sent her several buyer questions early on, and for anything that related to a certification of any kind, her response was something like, "He's a pet, not a show dog." She then wrote me a ranting email, which I have saved, that I must be talking to AKC folks, who she seems to think are militant (SHE is militant!). She does have some AKC registered dogs, but her main organization is APRI. She would not allow me to come to Kansas to see our puppy, or see their facilities. There is much more to this story, but again, I foolishly sent in a $500 deposit, and ended up paying $3,500 for our puppy because he was bred to be so small, thus the justification for the high price. On the morning after Thanksgiving, while we were out of town, I received a frantic phone call from the owner of the kennel we've always used and love, to tell me Darby had been taken to the emergency hospital.  He has been just fine then the next morning, could not walk, was disoriented, etc. We flew right home. The doctor at emergency tried giving him dextrose just in case it was low blood sugar, but no response. In the end everything pointed to a liver shunt. Once he was stable from medication, we were allowed to take him home and the next day he saw our vet. Again, everything points to a liver shunt or micro vascular displasia (many, many miniscule liver shunts that cannot be closed off). He goes in for surgery tomorrow. We are hoping for the single liver shunt that can be closed off, thus stopping the toxins from getting into his blood stream. He has been on two medications since that day, twice a day, plus a special diet three times a day to fatten him up for surgery. I let the breeder know and of course, she claims NONE of her dogs have ever been sick -- not one. Now liver shunts are a genetic and deadly defect in the Havanese breed and this woman has bred many, many, many Havanese, so it goes against the odds that Darby is the only dog ever to have this problem. Her only "consolation" was that if he dies she will give us another Havanese. I am so angry  with her right now, we are having no contact whatsoever. I am waiting until after the surgery tomorrow to think about whether we have a leg to stand on. We will never give Darby back. We fell in love with him just through his photos and he is the most adorable, loving, fun and funny dog I've ever known. Has anyone had a Havanese who was diagnosed with a liver shunt? I've tried to post pics but this site rejects it every time. My very best to you,, Jolynn. Penny


Here is a copy of her original post Susan. There are a few more in this thread as well.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Hi, Kathy
I did that and it couldn't find any records. So, now I'm really p---ed off.  Thanks for the info, though.


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

I'm so so so sorry to hear that OMG I sure hope you turn her in to the AKC ect.Any time a breeder refuses you to visit there home like that run run run. I will keep Darby in my prayers . These little guys do make you fall in love with them that is for sure.I know I would go to the end of the world for Yoda as he would for me.Its a same there are people out there that call them selfs a breeder like that.I'm not a breeder and for now I do not plan on breeding but if I did become a breeder it would only to breed to better the breed and I would except people to come visit my home where my dogs are at . If some one says no then that is a giant RED FLAG!!But we do take chances with buying a animal of any kind .Yoda rides every where with me and he loves it no matter how far it is or even if its just to grandmas house we go LOL I truly hope your dog gets a full recovery Susan


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## Pennylite (Jan 22, 2007)

*Darby update*

This is my earlier message: Hello, everyone. I just spoke to Darby's vet and Darby is out of the OR, but not awake yet, It did turn out to be a single shunt, which is what we were hoping for as opposed to multiple minuscule shunts. The shunt is completely ligated (the vet's term but it's closed off).  Darby will not be through with post op until 6 or 7 pm east coast time. He weighs 4-1/4 lbs, so he's much bigger than when this was first discovered and he was barely 2 lbs. The next critical time for him will be 48 hours from now. I am to call the vet back at 4:45 pm to get a better idea as to how Darby is doing. I am certain that all of your good wishes helped Darby get through this. I will let you know more as I know more. Thanks to all of you. Penny​
Since the message above, I spoke to the vet at 4:45 pm and Darby was waking up, lifting his head and looking around, but still very groggy. I am to call tomorrow morning and speak to the surgeon (the vet's wife) and get another update. I am emotionally drained, but so relieved that we at least know it was a single shunt and that it has been closed off. I am very anxious to hear more tomorrow morning. Thanks again for all the messages of support. It means a lot to me from people who don't even know me.  Penny​


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

What a sweet face Darby has!! Keep us all up to date.


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## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

Penny:
So glad that Darby is doing well. Keep us posted. He is so cute 

Irnfit: Same thing happened to me; couldn't find anything when I searched for health testing on the mom of my pup (the breeder's dog) cuz he doesn't believe in posting test results on OFA and health sites. Like DrDale.

Maybe she wasn't tested. I didn't get any tests at all for her, just like you. The daddy dog was fine, had all his test results posted and they were good (not the breeders dog). So at least I know that line is okay.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Pennylite said:


> Since the message above, I spoke to the vet at 4:45 pm and Darby was waking up, lifting his head and looking around, but still very groggy. I am to call tomorrow morning and speak to the surgeon (the vet's wife) and get another update. I am emotionally drained, but so relieved that we at least know it was a single shunt and that it has been closed off. I am very anxious to hear more tomorrow morning. Thanks again for all the messages of support. It means a lot to me from people who don't even know me.  Penny​


Good news!! Omg, how terrible to go through this with a new puppy. The poor little thing. Gets me so angry when I hear of how people are playing around with breeding, trying to get tinier dogs, or certain colors, or specific traits... I mean, you really have to know what you're doing! Like others have said, when you breed well, you're doing it for the benefit of the Havanese breed, not for your pocketbook!!

Good luck Penny! I'll be keeping you and the wee one in my thoughts.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

JodiM said:


> Penny~ Please keep us posted about Darby. I am so sorry to hear you are both going through this
> 
> Annie~ One of the best ways to cut your chances of getting a sick dog is to research the breeder. Make sure the parents have the proper health testing (you can do a search here, or check the havanese site to verify what tests the dogs should have had), and that the results can be verified on the websites. (OR, get copies of them and verify they are legit)
> 
> ...


*Great advice, Jodi !! 
How I wish there were fewer and fewer stories like these, where pups are sick before they even make it into our homes, poor things....

marj*


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

It makes me angery to .To think people would just breed to coat there pocket's GRRRRRRRR !!! Breed for the love of the breed to better the breed to try to removed the bad parts only and improve the good parts. When fur balls hurt dont they cry? When they are happy dont they show it? So what is the difference between people and fur balls ? I would trust a fur ball over people any day of the year. We speak english but if people are in tune with there little fur balls they speak to its just a different language right? Just give the little one LOTS OF LOVE and ATTENTION!!!!! the best kind of healing!!!!


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## Pennylite (Jan 22, 2007)

*Darby update Part II*

Good morning, everyone! Today is a great day. I spoke to Darby's surgeon a little while ago and he's doing very well. He even ate, peed and pooped last night! He is on a pain medication so still a bit groggy, but doing well just the same. The crucial 48 hour period will be over tomorrow afternoon sometime. If I can explain this in layperson's terms, now that the shunt has been closed off, the liver is getting good blood (cells) for the first time and bad toxins are no longer flowing into the bloodstream. This is an adjustment for the body and in some cases it can affect a dog neurologically. The surgeon has not seen this in dogs as young as Darby (7 mos), and feels very hopeful that this will not happen to him, but it's still a wait and see. So far so good. They are allowing me to come see him at noon, which I am thrilled about. So I must go and get ready as I'm still in my pjs! The night before last I didn't sleep much and yesterday was simply an emotionally draining day, so I was wiped out last night, thus sleeping in this morning! I will keep you all posted on Darby's progress and once again, THANK YOU so much for your positive thoughts and good wishes.  T H A N K Y O U!! Penny


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

PENNY Thank is GREAT to hear you do have the good side that he is young and can recover pretty good if he keeps inproving what great news to hear this morning.Our prayers are with you that he has a very good and fast recovery Susan


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Hi Penny,

Great to hear that Dary is recovering well and is eating and doing his busness.  Enjoy your visit with him and before you know it he will be going home with you.


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## Doggie Nut (Oct 20, 2006)

I have been keeping up with the updates on Skiver & Darby. I am so glad to hear that Darby is better! How is Skiver?? It's amazing to me how people can be so dishonest and think they will get away with it!?! The poor little innocent animals are the ones that suffer....not to mention the families that become the "forever" families for these little ones! I am praying for the families and these 2 darling babies! Vicki


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

*HCA Breeder List*

FYI

Just thought it was only fair to state that I did get the Breeder List from the HCA. They emailed it to me. I did send another message though. So, for those of you that said you had trouble, try again.

I just think the poor woman handling it was bombarded. Rumor has it that they are working on the auto response that I suggested. I must have friends in high places.......

It was a great list and it also says what tests to look for.  I wouldn't freak out if you do not find your breeder on it. I guess they have to reapply every few months. Mine wasn't on there but she was recommended by the local club plus a lot of local bloodlines start with her. Just remember to ask the right questions and if you don't like the answers run, run, run.


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Penny thats great! I hope your noon visit went well. I bet it helps his recovery just seeing you. 

Rita good new! Sometimes its good to stir the pot. I think breeders have to pay to be on the list and have a current litter. Im guessing if a breeder already has plenty of prospects or doesnt want to pay, they dont get on every time.


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

Hi 
The good news is that the puppy is well and now and in a caring and loving home . 
Thanks to Melissa there is a forum to educate people about breeders . Also their are reputable breeders available to help us and educate us . Thank you for your time and invaluable information ..
Everyone here in this forum is willing to share their experiences and stories and it does educate us and makes an impression .
No one likes to hear what this family had to endure but fortunately this little guy found someone who was willing to take him diarrhea and poopy bottom and all and love him and make sure he received the proper treatment . Some people might have just sent him back ..
You now have a best buddy for life .. Take care 

.


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## Pennylite (Jan 22, 2007)

*DARBY'S BEST UPDATE!*

Good morning, everyone:

I did see Darby yesterday and although he was rather subdued, he was very cuddly, and ate a little. He's on pain medication so he was not his usual happy self. The surgeon told me later that after I left he remained quiet, but then gradually began to perk up and while in his "cage", got up and barked at them, and he's not a barker. So at least his spunk is returning. I took photos but can't seem to get this site to accept them. The message I received says, "The Dimension limits for this file type are 800 x 800. We were unable to resize your file so you will need to do so manually and upload it again. Your file is currently 2816 x 2112." Does anyone know how to manually resize files? I took them off my photo card and downloaded them to the computer then uploaded them. It was then I received the message.

I spoke to the vet earlier this morning and Darby is doing very well, very active, eating well, etc. I am to call him between 3 & 4 pm today, and then, if everything is still going well, hopefully come in between 4 & 5 pm, go over some things with him, and then, I CAN TAKE DARBY HOME FROM THE HOSPITAL!! He's been gone since Tuesday morning, but it feels like forever.

HALLELUJAH!! 

I hope Skiver is doing much better, too.

And I also thank Melissa for having this forum available to everyone. All of your messages have helped me, too, when it cames to keeping my spirits up and being so informative. Thank you.

Penny


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

That is wonderful about Darby Penny Its always a scary thing to have to go threw. This little fur balls is like our children they sure do make you fall in love with them.It will be so nice for you to have him at home Good Luck Penny and his fast recovery!!


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Oh Penny, I bet you're counting the minutes until you finally see your sweet Darby! I can undertand that. It's good that he's getting back to his more normal self... poor little guy has been through a lot at his tender age. 

Keeping my fingers crossed that all goes very well with puppy and that he'll be healthy for a long, long time to come. I'm sure there will be loads of puppy kisses and cuddles at your house today.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Good Job Darby!!! These little guys are tougher than we think. He knew that what came to in comparison to what he left behind it a "pretty good deal" so he wants to stick around for more spoiling!! I am sure you love and attention helped him thru this!!


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

I am really happy and relieved to know that your precious little Darby is doing well Penny  That is such wonderful news!! I wish little Darby a easy and quick recovery. Big hugs to you both


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Not sure where to post this, but figured that this is the best place. Very interesting article or letter to the editor in my local NJ paper today. A Bill has been introduced by one of our assemblymen asking for new regulations and stricter penalties for irresponsible animal breeders. The main objective of the bill is to eradicate mass breeding businesses that illustrate poor conditions. It also focuses on the # of animals bred in one year, and the age of the animals when they are sold. It is nice to know in NJ that someone is starting to look out for these babies - hopefully it will pass & other states will follow suit. 
Laurie


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Hi Penny,

Wonderful news about Darby.  He is a tough little slugger and I wish him a speedy recovery. He is so lucky to have such a wonderful mommy.

Give him a kiss (as he probably can't have a belly rub) from me and the gang.
Best,


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Penny, 
So happy to hear the great news about Darby! Give him an extra hug from me when he comes home.


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## Pennylite (Jan 22, 2007)

*DARBY THE CONQUEROR*

Hi, everyone! Since bringing Darby home on Thursday, I haven't been very good about being in touch. However, he's doing very well. We have to keep him from wanting to play and run because his vet says no for a few days at least. He returns next week to have his sutures removed, so not much longer. He seems to be healing well. He has had the sniffles, sneezes and snorting since he returned home. I called his vet but he told me as long as he is eating well, etc., not to worry, but if he's still this way on Monday, to call him. I am guessing it's a little cold, but really don't know. We are just to happy to have him home with us again. I LOVE HIM!! I still plan to do some sort of website to get my story out there about this breeder, as well as notifying the AKC and APRI of which she is a member.

Thank you again for all of your support and I will keep you posted. I do hope Skiver's kennel cough is better.

Penny


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

Penny, I found this site -http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/ReportingPupMill.htm

It is not just reporting puppy mills - it tells you who to contact if you have a bad deal with a breeder, there really is alot more places to contact than what you might think.

I am so gald you little Darby is better.


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## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

Penny:
I'm so glad that Darby is doing better  Keep on giving him all that great Love and Attention and he'll get better every day!

Skiver's doing great, just has a few coughs at night. He is getting bigger, and is eating, but still is a little guy. But he sure is smart! We are both learning new stuff every day. I think he's teaching me more than I'm teaching him.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

So glad to hear the good news here!!!!


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Great news, Penny! Have fun with your little guy... don't worry about posting. We'll still be here when you have more time. 

Let us know if there's something wrong after you've called the vet tomorrow.


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

Hi 
I am so sorry to hear about your puppy .. I know how traumatic this must be for you ..
We will keep you in our prayers and we send loving healing thoughts to you and your little one .
Take care


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

I'm so happy to hear that Skiver and Darby are doing so much better! It is so frustrating and sad to see them sick and not feeling well. They are both so lucky to have found such good homes with so much love and care.

Beverly


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

That is great news about Darby, Penny  I wish him a smooth and quick reecovery.


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

Hi 
I just want to make one comment as it seems like all of you have covered a lot of what needs to be said and what needs to be heard ..
I really resent the comment that the buyers need to be be ready to wait / I waited over 9 months for my first dog . I could have had my own baby in that time .. 
I waited for the breeder to approve me . I waited for the dog to be impregnated . I waited for it to take . I waited for the puppies to be born . I waited to hear the puppies were healthy . I waited for the puppies to be evaluated and ready to go to their home .. I waited for the day I was going to get my HAvanese .
Come on give us a break .. People are waiting .. 
I did a lot of waiting .. I only had that little fellow for 4 years and then I lost him .. My heart was sad and my home was empty no little fellow to think I was the centre of his universe .. I do not know where you brreeders in Ca make yourself known .. I never was able to locate any of you . 
I found just one so called breeder and she was doing it as a hobby .. No thank you .. 
I thank the Havanese Rescue for finding this site .. 
Yes maybe we are an instant pudding throw away society but they are good people out there who are being jerked around and taken advantage of .
How else can it be prevented . Sorry I do not think buyer beware does it !!


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## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

We didn't wait as long as you had to, but it was still 2 months, and probably more if you count the researching and looking. It's not like we walked into a pet store and did an impulse buy! And I felt we asked the right questions. Sometimes you have faith and trust and this gets misused, it is not the buyers fault. It's like blaming a mugging victim.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Cosmosmon, I totally agree. As buyers, we can only do so much. A some point, we have to trust the breeder if we want a puppy.


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

For those of you who are interested, the AKC has news that lists *Legislative Alerts*. Many states are trying to pass laws on breeders.

I have to research more about PA though. The AKC is asking us to write letters *against the bill*. I guess because it would affect hobby breeders, etc. I have to talk to more breeders in PA to see how they feel. I do agree with a few things they are protesting. First, no input from kennels or breeders and the second thing is the team making the visits are lawyers. LAWYERS......... nothing personal but what do they know about dogs. I think they need to have an inspection team that includes vets..........

I think you need a lawyer just to figure out most states legislatures. At least they are trying............

http://www.akc.org/news/index.cfm?nav_area=press_center


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