# Added a second Havi-chaos!!



## Vinnysmom (Jul 14, 2021)

Hi!! We have a one year Havi boy Vinny. We added a second have a boy Enzo two months ago. Things have been pretty chaotic. We are working with a trainer. Vinny is big, 21 pounds and solid muscle. Enzo is slight and will probably max out at 13 to 14 pounds. When they play the difference is obvious. If Enzo isn’t instigating, Vinny will start. It goes to a very growly point seemingly often. We break them up and or Enzo goes in his pen. We hope this is just because Enzo is a puppy. Have any of you had a similar experience? Their personalities are so different. Vinny is strong, stubborn and smart. (Trainers observation) Enzo is a happy go lucky goofball that I think is more typical of what I had heard of the Havi breed. Any suggestions are welcome!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

There is often a lot of growling even in real true play. So growling isn't NECESSARILY a sign that things are going badly. But of course, right now, there is a HUGE size difference between your two, and your older one is still learning to share his space with the "new usurper".

Honestly, (and I do a lot of training!) I do not like the label of "stubborn" for any dog. In my circles, when someone says a dog is stubborn, we say the dog is better at training the person than the person is at training the dog!  Dogs are pretty predictable. They do the best they can with what they know under the circumstances they find themselves. If they are not behaving the way we want them to, they either don't know enough yet, or the circumstances are not such that they CAN show us the behaviors we want to see. 

You need to make sure that Vinny gets LOTS of breaks at this point and LOTS of one-on-one time with you, and continue to feel that HE is still your "special boy". The puppy will ALWAYS get plenty of attention just BECAUSE he is a puppy. In time, things will begin to normalize, especially as as Enzo gets older. 

But if there is a BIG size difference, you may ALWAYS have to step in occasionally during play. Kodi and Ducky get along very well. They really DO enjoy each other. But Kodi is 17 1/2 lbs and tall, and Ducky is 11 lbs and short. When they are playing, if Kodi starts to hump Ducky, (and he can be RELENTLESS about it) Ducky can get tired of that game quickly, because he can't physically stop it without causing a fight, which he doesn't want to do. So he runs to me, and put an end to the game. Kodi humphs, and stalks away. Game over. People with a large breed and small breed dog have to watch this even MORE carefully!

Interestingly, when Pixel was a puppy, we had to protect Kodi from HER!!! She was relentless, and would hang from his ears and even his lips with her needle-sharp puppy teeth! We had to regularly put her in her pen, or him behind a gate just to protect him from her... when she weighed 5 lbs to his 17! LOL! So it's not ALWAYS about size.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

They'll probably figure it out.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> ...But if there is a BIG size difference, you may ALWAYS have to step in occasionally during play. Kodi and Ducky get along very well. They really DO enjoy each other. But Kodi is 17 1/2 lbs and tall, and Ducky is 11 lbs and short. When they are playing, if Kodi starts to hump Ducky, (and he can be RELENTLESS about it) Ducky can get tired of that game quickly, because he can't physically stop it without causing a fight, which he doesn't want to do. So he runs to me, and put an end to the game. Kodi humphs, and stalks away. Game over. People with a large breed and small breed dog have to watch this even MORE carefully!...


This describes Perry with Cousin Finley pretty well - except Finley doesn't quite get it and doesn't go away  

Perry is 11 pounds, Finley is a 20-22 pound Scotty. Finley loves to play and it usually is pretty rough (he's used to playing with dogs twice his size who also play rough). Perry will play with him for a few minutes but he's learned that when he has had enough he comes to me or Finley's mom and we'll stop Fin - either making him stop or picking Perry up (which ever is more convenient at the moment). It definitely put an end to the "fighting" - not that they would get into major fights, but when Fin was bugging Perry when he didn't want it, Perry would get a little snappy. Now he knows what he needs to do and it will end so that stopped the "fights".

I'm not sure you could teach it, but you could reinforce it if you're seeing one of the dogs trying to 'get away' or avoid the interactions... That's what we did. Perry started coming and leaning on me or putting his legs on me and so we just made it a thing, telling Fin to stop at that point... and Perry just seemed to get it.


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## Vinnysmom (Jul 14, 2021)

imranbhatti said:


> Chaos theory describes the qualities of the goals at which stability moves to instability or order moves to disorder. For example, unlike the behavior of a pendulum, which adheres to a predictable pattern a chaotic system does not settle into a predictable pattern due to its nonlinear processes.


??


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Vinnysmom said:


> ??


It's spam. You can report spam to the admins by clicking the 3 dots in the upper right of the post. I already did on this post, so there is no need. Word of warning, though. We don't have very robust admin assigned to the forum, so it can take a while for them to remove spam! LOL!


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## Vinnysmom (Jul 14, 2021)

krandall said:


> It's spam. You can report spam to the admins by clicking the 3 dots in the upper right of the post. I already did on this post, so there is no need. Word of warning, though. We don't have very robust admin assigned to the forum, so it can take a while for them to remove spam! LOL!


Thank you!


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## Catharine (11 mo ago)

Vinnysmom said:


> Hi!! We have a one year Havi boy Vinny. We added a second have a boy Enzo two months ago. Things have been pretty chaotic. We are working with a trainer. Vinny is big, 21 pounds and solid muscle. Enzo is slight and will probably max out at 13 to 14 pounds. When they play the difference is obvious. If Enzo isn’t instigating, Vinny will start. It goes to a very growly point seemingly often. We break them up and or Enzo goes in his pen. We hope this is just because Enzo is a puppy. Have any of you had a similar experience? Their personalities are so different. Vinny is strong, stubborn and smart. (Trainers observation) Enzo is a happy go lucky goofball that I think is more typical of what I had heard of the Havi breed. Any suggestions are welcome!


Archie was 2.5 when we brought Beau home in January. They have wrestle together and sometimes it gets a bit growly but I can see it’s just play. At 9 months, Beau is 17 lbs of muscle. Archie is slighter at 14 lbs. The size and strength difference is obvious but…Archie is in charge and Beau is ok with that! I can see how it might be a problem if each wanted to dominate. SO glad we got a second. 🥰


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