# @#$% Ticks!!!



## krandall

I had to take Kodi to the vet this afternoon. Poor little guy is not feeling well at all. He seems to be hurting all over, doesn't want to move, just wants to sleep, and he didn't eat supper last night or breakfast this morning. (and he is NOT a picky eater!!!) At one point when I went to check on him, and just gently stroked his side, he growled at me!!! Not a big mean growl, but a grumpy, "leave me alone" growl. He's never done that in his life!

Yesterday when he was tired in the morning, I thought it was because of our busy day on Sunday. But when he kept getting worse instead of better, I knew there was a problem. I called the vet first thing this morning, and set up an appointment for him.

The working hypothesis at this point is that although he tested negative for tick diseases, that's what PROBABLY is wrong with him. They also took blood to do a complete panel, and I'm supposed to bring them a stool sample tomorrow, just to rule out other possibilities. But I guess they can act sick before they develop enough antibodies to show in a titer, so a negative titer doesn't mean no tick-borne disease.

The problem is, he's not eating, so they can't start him on oral Doxy, or it will just make him sick to his stomach and likely to vomit the meds. So they gave him injections of an anti-inflamatory, Penicillin (which I guess is also effective against these diseases) and something to settle his stomach. Poor guy thought he was a pin cushion by the time he left the vet's office! And the whole time there, he either lay on the table, or lay on my lap. He looked so pathetic.

He's still pretty miserable tonight, but I made him boiled chicken and rice for supper, and he did eat a little of that before disappearing into his crate again. Tomorrow, when the full blood panel comes back, they'll decide exactly how they want to treat him. Right now I'm going to take him up to bed with me so I can keep an eye on him!


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## TilliesMom

OH MY GOSH Karen!! I am SO saddened to read this news... poor sweet Kodi.
I will be praying for him and that the Drs can figure out what is wrong asap!!


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## ClaireVoyant

Poor Kodi . . .so sorry he's feeling so puny . Is it not extraordinarily early for ticks up there? Though I have heard much of the country's mild winter will make for a nasty bug year. Keep us posted.


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## whimsy

oh no..I feel so sorry for your poor little guy..( and you too..it is so hard to watch our pups when they don't feel good) Hope things get better soon!!


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## heatherk

Poor Kodi! Hope he feel better soon!


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## misstray

Awww...poor Kodi. Sure hope he's back to his regular self soon.


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## lfung5

Poor little buddy. I hope they get to the bottom of what is making him feel so awful. I know when Scudder got Lyme it was instant. He was running around and then it was like he hit a brick wall. I took him to the vet immediately and he tested positive for 2 tick born diseases. Good luck and keep us posted. Give him lots of kisses and hugs.


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## Missy

Oh No. I totally agree. @#$% Ticks!!! It is good you got him right on abx. I am totally for being better safe than sorry? what is it that made the vet think TBD? Does Kodi have joint pain? a fever? 

No pun intended (well I guess it is intended) ticks suck!!!

please keep us posted and belly rubs to Kodi.


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## CarolWCamelo

Karen - I'm so sorry Kodi feels so rotten. He surely couldn't ask for a better caretaker than you - hey, it's just really rough for us when our dogs don't feel well.

Prayers flowing for Kodi and you; please keep us posted!

Love and hugs,
Tue, 6 Mar 2012 17:25:48 (PST)


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## krandall

ClaireVoyant said:


> Poor Kodi . . .so sorry he's feeling so puny . Is it not extraordinarily early for ticks up there? Though I have heard much of the country's mild winter will make for a nasty bug year. Keep us posted.


Unfortunately, he has come in with ticks on him several times this winter. It's just never been cold enough to beat them back. (no snow to speak of either). And that's even with Advantix on him at all times.


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## krandall

lfung5 said:


> Poor little buddy. I hope they get to the bottom of what is making him feel so awful. I know when Scudder got Lyme it was instant. He was running around and then it was like he hit a brick wall. I took him to the vet immediately and he tested positive for 2 tick born diseases. Good luck and keep us posted. Give him lots of kisses and hugs.


That sort of happened with him too. He was FINE on Sunday, and Monday morning he was a different dog.


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## motherslittlehelper

Oh Karen, so sorry to hear that Kodi is feeling so poorly. You know he has to feel awful for him to react like that. We wish him a speedy diagnosis and recovery.


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## krandall

Missy said:


> Oh No. I totally agree. @#$% Ticks!!! It is good you got him right on abx. I am totally for being better safe than sorry? what is it that made the vet think TBD? Does Kodi have joint pain? a fever?
> 
> No pun intended (well I guess it is intended) ticks suck!!!
> 
> please keep us posted and belly rubs to Kodi.


He doesn't have a fever, but the vet said they don't, always. But he's sore all over. He doesn't even want to be touched. You can just tell he feels horrible. She checked his spine, because she said that occasionally you see a dog moving like this if they have a pinched nerve, but she couldn't find any place that he was particularly more sore than he was all over. We don't know for sure that it's a TBD, but with the overall symptoms, that seems the most likely. We may know more tomorrow, otherwise, we just need to wait and see if he gets better with the antibiotics and anti-inflammatories.


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## The Laughing Magpie

Very sorry to here Kodi is not feeling well, hope the Vet gets to the bottom of what ever it is and Kodi has a speedy recovery. It has been a very mild winter here, I have been dreading the bugs, we seldom get fire ants, but today all up and down the grass by the drive way are red mounds! I also saw a couple of ticks hanging on one of the bird feeders. I will be boiling water tomorrow and pouring it in the ant hills.

I hope Kodi gets back to himself quickly, thinking of you and Kodi, Hugs.


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## Kalico

Oh dear. I'm so sorry to hear this. What kind of tick disease? Are there others besides Lyme? 

Feel better Kodi...prayers going your way!


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## Brady's mom

Karen, I am so sorry Kodi isn't feeling well. We had a very similar situation with my Mom's havanese, Bacca, a year or so ago. We took him to the emergency vet because it was so sudden and he was so miserable. They tested him for tick born diseases and tons of other things and nothing came up. He did have a fever. He stayed the night at the emergency vet and then we took him to Mom's vet in the morning. The vet decided to put him on the doxy even though he wasn't testing positive. It was like magic. He felt so much better later in the day and came home that night. If there is any chance that is what it is, I would think getting him on the doxy as soon as possible would be best. Hope the little guy feels better soon!


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## jabojenny

Poor Kodi, hope he feels better soon. You're a great mama so he's in great hands. Thinking of you guys and your test results tomorrow with fingers crossed, Yes %#@ ticks I finally put Timmy on Advantix and we've been good sever since.


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## krandall

Kalico said:


> Oh dear. I'm so sorry to hear this. What kind of tick disease? Are there others besides Lyme?
> 
> Feel better Kodi...prayers going your way!


Yes, unfortunately, there are a number of them. Around here, Lyme, Erlichiosis and Babesiosis are the most common, but we have Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever too. Worse, if your dog (or you) gets one, they are likely to get more than one at the same time.


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## luv3havs

Karen,
So sorry to hear this. Hope Kodi gets better soon!


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## Ruthi

So sorry, it is hard to watch your pup sick, just like when you have a sick child. Hope you get to the bottom of this soon, and he gets better. I know I am in Ga. and we havent had enough cold to kill the bugs. I still have all my flowers blooming, bloomed all through winter.


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## Moe's Gram

Sorry to hear that Kodi is ill. Hoping for a fast recovery!


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## irnfit

Poor little guy. Sending good thoughts that he is much better tomorrow.


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## Tom King

Hopefully, it's something that will pass quickly!!!!


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## Suzi

Hugs to you. And we are prying for Kodi to get 100% better very soon. :kiss:


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## lfung5

Is his front paw lame? I know that is one of the symptoms of lyme. Scudder had that symptom and I knew right away what it was. He wouldn't even go pee. He was so tired he wouldn't move either.


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## ivyagogo

Goodness there have been a lot of health issues on the board in the past two weeks or so. Hope Kodi feels better soon.


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## Thumper

Karen, I'm sorry! Poor guy  Here in Virginia the weather had been all over the place as well, the bugs don't know what to do!! I Hope he feels better soon, certainly, a great sign that he is eating the chicken! and you are ahead of the game going to the vet right away.

:grouphug:

Kara


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## ShirleyH

Oh Karen, what a worry. I'm hoping the diagnosis is in by now and a treatment can be started. Poor baby. Vets seem to disagree on whether to treat for ticks all year and the chemicals to do that are sometimes questioned. Please let us know Kodi is better.

Keeper's Mom


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## Lizzie'sMom

I am so sorry to hear about Kodi not feeling well. I hope that you can get a diagnosis quickly and he gets on the mend. Hugs to your sweet boy! You, too!


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## krandall

lfung5 said:


> Is his front paw lame? I know that is one of the symptoms of lyme. Scudder had that symptom and I knew right away what it was. He wouldn't even go pee. He was so tired he wouldn't move either.


No, he is no more sore in one place than others. But Lyme doesn't always show in any specific limb. It can be a moveable lameness (most common) or general joint pain, which seems to be more what he has.

Dr. Poling (the senior vet in our practice) called me this morning and said that except for his protein levels (which were low) his bloodwork looked normal, which is good. His protein level being low is not concerning because he hadn't eaten anything in 24 hours before the blood test, and it only takes 12-14 hours for that to drop. I have to drop off a fecal this morning, just to rule out intestinal parasites.

He seems a bit more comfortable this morning, though he's certainly not back to normal. But he also has a lot of drugs on board. He didn't eat his whole breakfast, but he did eat a spoonful of canned food. Dr. Poling said that if he keeps that down without problems, he'll decide exactly what to put him on later today. If he doesn't keep that down, or doesn't continue to eat, they'll want him back in to give him IV fluids.


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## krandall

ShirleyH said:


> Oh Karen, what a worry. I'm hoping the diagnosis is in by now and a treatment can be started. Poor baby. Vets seem to disagree on whether to treat for ticks all year and the chemicals to do that are sometimes questioned. Please let us know Kodi is better.
> 
> Keeper's Mom


Around here the ticks are SO bad, and are SO likely to carry infection that you really don't have a choice but to use a preventative. It's like going into a malaria infected area and refusing to use DEET. DEET may be bad, but malaria is MUCH worse!


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## Atticus

Karen, I was so sorry to hear all of this this morning. Yes here in New England ticks are bad ! I'm using Vectra at the moment.Don't know that much about it but it was reccommended as a change. Of course you know you may still see ticks on him but they hopefully won't dig in and stay attached. I'm thinking of you and hope for the best. It seems if you catch it early and treat it he will pull through fine. Quite a worry though!


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## Carefulove

Oh Karen, I hope they can figure out what's wrong and they can give him meds to help him get well soon.
Does he like eggs? You can soft boil it and mix it with rice to get a bigger meal on him. Mine will eat anything that is coated in Yolk.

Sending him lots of get well vibes~~~~


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## morriscsps

Poor Kodi! I hope he feels better soon.

The ticks have gotten vicious the last couple of weeks. There was two days where I had to pick one off every time Jack went out. Nessie rarely gets ticks. I think it is because she is evil. 

Please let us know how Kodi is doing today. (((hugs)))


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## shimpli

Ohhh I hope Kodi gets better soon. Those f ticks. What are you going to use now? Are you changing from Advantix?


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## Brady's Grandmom

the symptoms you are describing sounds exactly how Bacca was affected. He was sore all over and just wanted me to hold him but not move him. his blood count was low and that was the only thing that was off. He immediately reacted to the doxy when they put him on it and started to show signs of improvement. I know how scared I was when it happened to him. Hope Kodi bounces back fast.


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## StarrLhasa

Karen:

Just saw this thread this morning and am glad to read that Kodi has started to feel better. We have ticks here all year, although the diseases they carry are a little different.

I was wondering if wearing a sweater or other body covering while outside might be helpful to prevent ticks from jumping on. 

Hope Kodi makes a full recovery.


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## rokipiki

Belly rubs for dear Kodi! Hope he will be much, much better soon! I konow how you feel because I went through a lot with Roki! I am OK when my havababy is OK! 
Marina&Roki


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## krandall

Atticus said:


> Karen, I was so sorry to hear all of this this morning. Yes here in New England ticks are bad ! I'm using Vectra at the moment.Don't know that much about it but it was reccommended as a change. Of course you know you may still see ticks on him but they hopefully won't dig in and stay attached. I'm thinking of you and hope for the best. It seems if you catch it early and treat it he will pull through fine. Quite a worry though!


I'm sure he will be fine, it's just so sad to see him so under the weather.

Unfortunately, even with the tick stuff on them, they are finding that the diseases can be transmitted in much less than the 24 hour attachment/feeding period that was once thought.


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## krandall

Carefulove said:


> Oh Karen, I hope they can figure out what's wrong and they can give him meds to help him get well soon.
> Does he like eggs? You can soft boil it and mix it with rice to get a bigger meal on him. Mine will eat anything that is coated in Yolk.
> 
> Sending him lots of get well vibes~~~~


Thanks, Zury. He will usually turn himself inside out for eggs, so I scrambled an egg for him yesterday and he wouldn't touch it. Since he DID eat a little breakfast this morning, I'm going to try the egg again at lunch time today.


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## krandall

shimpli said:


> Ohhh I hope Kodi gets better soon. Those f ticks. What are you going to use now? Are you changing from Advantix?


None of them work completely. Advantix still seems to keep more ticks off them in this area than anything else. Probably no reason to change. It's still a matter of checking them carefully, removing ticks as soon as you see them, and treating AS SOON as you see any symptoms.


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## krandall

Brady's Grandmom said:


> the symptoms you are describing sounds exactly how Bacca was affected. He was sore all over and just wanted me to hold him but not move him. his blood count was low and that was the only thing that was off. He immediately reacted to the doxy when they put him on it and started to show signs of improvement. I know how scared I was when it happened to him. Hope Kodi bounces back fast.


Thanks, Miriam. He's certainly not his "old self" yet, but between all the meds they gave him yesterday, he's definitely more comfortable today.


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## krandall

StarrLhasa said:


> Karen:
> 
> Just saw this thread this morning and am glad to read that Kodi has started to feel better. We have ticks here all year, although the diseases they carry are a little different.
> 
> I was wondering if wearing a sweater or other body covering while outside might be helpful to prevent ticks from jumping on.
> 
> Hope Kodi makes a full recovery.


Well, first, he's in full coat, so a sweater would mean de-matting him every time he came in. But besides that, they usually climb on via the dogs legs or face, so I'm not sure a sweater would help much. I pull almost all the ticks I find on him off his face and head. I think the thick, long coat on the rest of him actually protects him from ticks better than a sweater would. When I find ticks on his body, they are almost always wandering around his coat and haven't made it to skin yet.


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## Pixiesmom

I've been using Halo Cloud nine dip on mine and have had good luck so far (some in their pure paws shampoo, and I made a spray). Ticks don't like the smell of garlic either, although the tablets make your dogs breath smell. I hope Kodi feels better very soon.


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## HannahBearsMom

Glad to hear Kodi is feeling a bit better.


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## dodrop82

Boy, I sure didn't want to hear this! I hope he's doing better and does not have a TBD!!! I groomed Boo on Saturday, and found a slightly engorged tic on the back of her neck! It is way to early for tics in Iowa!!! When I pulled it out, she had a little swelling at the sight, and the tic was all brown, versus the usual tan bodies they usually have. I saved the tic (Don't know if that's of any help) just in case a problem developed, but so far, she's acting like her crazy self. Any idea how long it takes for symptoms to show up?!?


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## krandall

dodrop82 said:


> Boy, I sure didn't want to hear this! I hope he's doing better and does not have a TBD!!! I groomed Boo on Saturday, and found a slightly engorged tic on the back of her neck! It is way to early for tics in Iowa!!! When I pulled it out, she had a little swelling at the sight, and the tic was all brown, versus the usual tan bodies they usually have. I saved the tic (Don't know if that's of any help) just in case a problem developed, but so far, she's acting like her crazy self. Any idea how long it takes for symptoms to show up?!?


Actually, while, of course, I don't want him to be sick at ALL, TBD's are very treatable, especially if caught early. That's why they started him on antibiotics, even though we don't know for sure what is wrong.

Symptoms often don't show up immediately... Dogs don't get the distinctive Lyme "bullseye" rash, even if the bite is on a portion of their anatomy where you could see it easily. The other symptoms can range from subtle to acute, and come come a LONG time after the bite. That's why most vets advise titering dogs for the TBD's prevalent in your area annually. Then they can treat the dog even if they haven't ever shown any symptoms.


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## Suzi

Hope kodi is feeling better this afternoon.


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## Kathie

Sorry to hear this, Karen. I'm glad Kodi is feeling a little better today, though. I hope they are able to figure out what it is soon. I'm praying he will be able to keep the Doxy down, too.


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## Missy

Glad to hear Kodi is better. And i am so glad he is on antibiotics. I am pretty sure what Cash had when he was just 1 and became lame was a TBD even though he tested negative and continues to. But he responded to doxy and antirobe which treats protozoa. Tests for Lyme and co-infections are not reliable. Please don't hesitate to keep Kodi on antibiotics for a full 30 days (or longer.) 

Ticks totally freak me out now, since Cash's incident, and I have been treating Lyme since last May. It has been the worst year of my life. It is easy to treat, if you catch it early. But the worst ticks, The deer tick nymphs are the size of a poppy seed and they are able to feed and drop off and feed on someone else. So you often don't see an engorged tick attached. And you don't catch it. And this year has been so crazy weather wise...they never went away. 

I love my boys...but I look at them differently. they are little tick carriers (albeit cute, love of my life, tick carriers) they're protected somewhat with the Frontline. But we are not. The ticks catch a ride on them. I pulled a deer tick off of DH one morning in December that I believe was in our bed! 

We are opting to have our yard sprayed for ticks and mosquitos once a month this year starting this month. We had used a natural deterrent, a garlic spray in the past. But this year we are using the hard core stuff. 

You can't live in fear, and many feel that everyone has lyme antibodies and only some people get sick. But if you, your neezers or someone you love has unexplained symptoms, I urge you to check for Lyme. 

Sorry to Hijack Kodi's thread Karen. I Hope he continues to get better.


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## CarolWCamelo

Rooting for you and Kodi, Karen. I'm just watching. Pressed for time, as it took me all day yesterday to catch Camellia for her bath! But I have you and Kodi tucked deeply into my heart.

Love and hugs,
Wed, 7 Mar 2012 19:39:21 (PST)


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## krandall

Missy said:


> Glad to hear Kodi is better. And i am so glad he is on antibiotics. I am pretty sure what Cash had when he was just 1 and became lame was a TBD even though he tested negative and continues to. But he responded to doxy and antirobe which treats protozoa. Tests for Lyme and co-infections are not reliable. Please don't hesitate to keep Kodi on antibiotics for a full 30 days (or longer.)
> 
> Ticks totally freak me out now, since Cash's incident, and I have been treating Lyme since last May. It has been the worst year of my life. It is easy to treat, if you catch it early. But the worst ticks, The deer tick nymphs are the size of a poppy seed and they are able to feed and drop off and feed on someone else. So you often don't see an engorged tick attached. And you don't catch it. And this year has been so crazy weather wise...they never went away.
> 
> I love my boys...but I look at them differently. they are little tick carriers (albeit cute, love of my life, tick carriers) they're protected somewhat with the Frontline. But we are not. The ticks catch a ride on them. I pulled a deer tick off of DH one morning in December that I believe was in our bed!
> 
> We are opting to have our yard sprayed for ticks and mosquitos once a month this year starting this month. We had used a natural deterrent, a garlic spray in the past. But this year we are using the hard core stuff.
> 
> You can't live in fear, and many feel that everyone has lyme antibodies and only some people get sick. But if you, your neezers or someone you love has unexplained symptoms, I urge you to check for Lyme.
> 
> Sorry to Hijack Kodi's thread Karen. I Hope he continues to get better.


I'm glad you posted, Missy. i know what you've been going through, and you know better than anyone how bad it can be. Unless they can come up with a definitive dx saying for sure that he's got something else, I want him on doxy for a good long time. Right now, he's still not ready for it, though... He's been nauseated all afternoon. He hasn't actually vomitted, but he's been drooling and swallowing, and his beard is all wet. He did eat a light (chicken and rice) supper, but later in the evening had a really slushy poop, which necessitated our first butt bath since he was a little puppy. The only good thing was that since I had to wash that end, I washed his face too, so he smells fresh and clean on both ends!. I'm not sure whether the loose stools are part of being sick, or were caused by the penicillin. In the morning, I'm going to double his usual probiotic dose.


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## krandall

CarolWCamelo said:


> Rooting for you and Kodi, Karen. I'm just watching. Pressed for time, as it took me all day yesterday to catch Camellia for her bath! But I have you and Kodi tucked deeply into my heart.
> 
> Love and hugs,
> Wed, 7 Mar 2012 19:39:21 (PST)


Thanks, Carol, (and everyone else!!!) Kodi and I appreciate the well-wishes!

He did feel enough better that he went and got his stuffed frog and asked me to play with him. But it only lasted about 30 seconds, then he was ready to go back to bed.


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## Mojo's Mom

Karen, can't they give Doxycycline in an injection, or IV? I can't remember what the treatment protocols are for the other TBDs. 

Poor Kodi, and it's always so scary. It does sound very much like a TBD.

Sending healing thoughts.


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## Missy

Karen, azythromicin, or ceftin are just as good and may be easier to tolerate (at least in humans). Cash's first day they hydrated him and gave him intravenous doxy, cause he was not eating either. Just watch him closely. If he looks worse rush him in for intravenous abx. Cash had a fever on a Tuesday and pain when he moved. Was tested and hydrated, he was totally fine on Wednesday, Wednesday night he had chills and aches, so Thursday they gave him intrv doxy, he was fine thursday night. Friday he was totallly lame and in pain in his back legs. We did lots of tests, they found nothing other than elevated lymphocytes which mark infection... So they sent him home with more doxy and antirobe and we were told if those didn't work in a week we should start prednisone. Luckily we didn't have to go there, cause that would have been more serious. It took a month for him to be back to him self. But now 4 years later, everything is fine. 

I hope you caught kodis quicker, and he is back to normal soon.

Oh just one more thought. In humans anyway., the right treatment causes symptoms to worsen before they get better. Spirochetes (the bacteria in Lyme, lepto and syphilis) produce Nuerotoxins when they are killed. and it makes you feel horrible til it clears your system. It is called a herxeimer reaction. Always hard to tell with animals, cause they just lie low when they're not feeling well. Lyme also has a much longer life cycle than other bacteria...that's why the longer course of drugs


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## StarrLhasa

Thanks for all the specifics, Missy. It is very scary, and knowledge helps.


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## Luciledodd

Karen I am so sorry that Kodi is sick. Have you heard from the stool sample yet? I know that I haven't been very supportive lately, but I do care and hope to read that he has something treatable and will be fine in a few days.


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## Pipersmom

Poor Kodi! I hope he's feeling better soon


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## krandall

Thanks, everybody. Lucile, we haven't yet heard back on the stool sample. The lab hadn't called in by the time the vet's office closed last night. I just called them again now, and they didn't send it out until 2:00, and probably won't have the results back until after lunch time. Grrr. 

Last night he asked to go out several times, but didn't poop, then had a diarrhea accident in the house... got all over him, and then... well you know, I ended up doing a HUGE amount of house cleaning after bathing him at 10PM. This morning he had diarrhea again. Fortunately, it was outside, which saved the house, but it required another... more than butt bath... sort of a half-dog bath.


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## dodrop82

Oh boy! Poor Kodi and poor you! I hope they figure it all out soon! Wonder why dogs don't get the bullseye! I was watching for it, even considered shaving the area so I could see better...glad I didn't!


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## krandall

dodrop82 said:


> Oh boy! Poor Kodi and poor you! I hope they figure it all out soon! Wonder why dogs don't get the bullseye! I was watching for it, even considered shaving the area so I could see better...glad I didn't!


Well, you know a lot of people don't either, right?


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## LunasMom

Karen, I just read this! How awful for you and Kodi. DH said to tell you our hearts go out to you. Having a sick pup with no useful diagnosis is the worst! Kodi could just slowly recover and you may never have a definite answer--just a bunch of guesses. Awful.
Did you ever take in a stool sample? I don't recall reading in previous posts that Kodi's poop had been normal.


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## LunasMom

I just read about the stool sample you took in. Is giardia a possibility? Luna got a case of it last January and the very loose stools are, of course, the big part of it along with no temperature. The stool sample results will tell you that answer immediately.


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## ShirleyH

Karen, please keep us informed. I am worried about Kodi. This reminds me of the time Keeper picked up a parasite from a puppy at a show and was so sick you couldn't believe that was the only problem. If the stool sample shows a parasite, they need to pick the right meds for a 'fix'. Some parasites don't exhibit at the time of an outbreak.

Fingers crossed for Kodi and you.

Keeper's Mom


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## Missy

I am just checking in on Kodi too! good vibes little man! sorry bout the nocturnal house/dog cleaning Karen. I know how tired you must be.


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## morriscsps

Blech! I pulled another tick off of Jack. I just put Advantix on him a week ago. sigh.

How is Kodi feeling?


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## HavaneseSoon

:grouphug: Hugs to you and Kodi.


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## Suzi

:grouphug:Kodi:kiss:


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## shimpli

Checking on Kodi too...


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## StarrLhasa

Checking on Kodi and you, too.


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## pjewel

I don't know how, but I missed this entire thread. Poor Kodi, poor you. I really hope the treatment takes care of the problem and that he gets better as quickly as he got sick. I'll be checking for updates. Give your sweet little boy a kiss from me.


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang

I'm so sorry Kodi's sick! He will definitely be in my thoughts and prayers for a speedy diagnosis and smooth recovery.


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## The Laughing Magpie

Checking in on you and Kodi, hope the Vet's figure this out soon and get him on the road to recovery. Thinking about both of you.


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## lfung5

I'm hoping Kodi is feeling a little better. I hope you respond soon to let us know. I am so concerned....

Just wanted to mention. This winter has been very mild where I live. The ticks are going to be out in record number this year. I am using the PREVENTIC COLLAR on my guys along with the frontline. Last year I only saw 2 ticks all year on my dogs or in my house. And my guys hike in the woods! The collars is amazing and repels ticks.


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## luv3havs

We used the Preventic collar last year,too. Vet recommended it.
I guess it's time to get 3 more!


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## waybrook

Just saw this thread - so sorry Kodi is so sick. He (and you) will be in our thoughts - hope he's better soon!


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## dodrop82

Never heard of the Preventic Collar, Linda! I'll check into that! Thank you!


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## Ruthi

Lots of useful info here. Didnt know all this about ticks. What is titering? Do I need to do that. I live in Ga. I live in the country, and so far havent had a prob with ticks. I hope your poor baby is ok, waiting and watching to find out how he is.


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## heatherk

Just wanted to be the cautionary voice here regarding pest-repelling collars. While I don't know anything specific about the Preventic Collar, I do know that pest-repelling collars in general, such as flea collars, are _extremely _toxic, and can have bad effects on the dog as well as on you or or your family. I just read the instructions for using the Preventic Collar, and it says to use rubber gloves when putting it on. If *I'm* not supposed to touch it with my own skin, I am going to be very, very thorough about my research before I put it onto my dog. For me, the risk would be too much. But - I don't live in a high-tick area. If I did, I would have to reconsider the situation. As with anything else, there is no right or wrong answer here, as long as people do their research and make informed decisions; I just want to be the cautionary voice telling everybody to at least do their research, and be aware of the risks either way, whatever they decide.

-Hope Kodi feels better soon!!!! (((Kodi)))


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## jcarol

Hope Kodi will be feeling better soon. Sending prayers for his recovery from this illness.


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## Atticus

Got on this morning to check on Kodi,yikes Karen doesn't sound like much fun at yr house these days! I so glad you work from home. Hang in there hope he feels better soon!


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## krandall

Hi everyone, and THANK YOU for all your kind, caring posts. We ahve such a wonderful group!!!

So here's the up-date as it stands now. He came back as positive for Coccidia, so we are treating for that. But I am not at ALL sure that that's why he has been sick. (though I'm perfectly willing to believe he was infected) He didn't have ANY signs of intestinal upset until AFTER they gave him the long-acting penicillin, which, of course, can also cause diarrhea. 

He was definitely better on Wed. (except for the loose stools... not sure I'd call it diarrhea, if he weren't a long haired dog, it probably wouldn't have been a big issue) but of corse he had both the abx and anti-inflamatories on board. Yesterday, he was definitely WORSE again in terms of his energy level (anti-inflamatory wearing off?) but the loose stools cleared up. (probably because I put him on chicken and rice with pumpkin, and doubled his usual probiotics does)

I am concerned that we are treating something that we only found incidentally. Not that I don't think that we should treat the Coccidia, but I am not at all convinced that is what has made him so sick over-all. I haven't found any literature that leads me to believe that Coccidia can cause the over-all body soreness and lethargy he has had. The sypmtoms (unless untreated for a long time, seems to be mostly diarrhea, and he has had exactly two loose bowel movements since this whole thing started Monday morning.

So, the problem is, here we are up against the weekend. A vet friend thinks I should take him to an BC internist for a more complete work-up, considering that he was still lethargic last night. ... But he seems a LITTLE better this morning. Is he turning the corner? Sometimes, in the last few days (after he had the anti-inflamatories) he HAS seemed better for short periods of time. But then he wears out again. I'm concerned that if I wait, and he gets sicker over the weekend, we'll be stuck with an intern at the emergency clinic. OTOH, if I make an urgent appointment for an internist today, what do I say? "I'm just worried about my dog, even though he seems fine right now"?

I HATE these "mystery" type things!!!!!


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## Ruthi

Karen, I feel for ya. Weekend sickness is hard to deal with. It doesnt sound like the vets results are definete. I think I would have to investigate it further. From what I have read, it sure sounds like it is tick related. It sounds like what they found, was just coincidental. Still seems like there is something else. I dont know as much as others about this, but......sounds like there is more to know. Praying...............


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## Ditto's Mom

Karen, my heart goes out to you and to Kodi. Hope your little guy will soon be back to normal. Sending healing thoughts and prayers your way.


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## CarolWCamelo

heatherk said:


> Just wanted to be the cautionary voice here regarding pest-repelling collars. While I don't know anything specific about the Preventic Collar, I do know that pest-repelling collars in general, such as flea collars, are _extremely _toxic, and can have bad effects on the dog as well as on you or or your family. I just read the instructions for using the Preventic Collar, and it says to use rubber gloves when putting it on. If *I'm* not supposed to touch it with my own skin, I am going to be very, very thorough about my research before I put it onto my dog. For me, the risk would be too much. But - I don't live in a high-tick area. If I did, I would have to reconsider the situation. As with anything else, there is no right or wrong answer here, as long as people do their research and make informed decisions; I just want to be the cautionary voice telling everybody to at least do their research, and be aware of the risks either way, whatever they decide.
> 
> -Hope Kodi feels better soon!!!! (((Kodi)))


Thanks very much for posting this really important information!

Also, we want to be very cautious about MIXING poisons, so if we're putting on one kind - say, Frontline, or Avantix - then adding another kind - the Preventic collar - may severely poison the dog!

There isn't a lot, I believe, in the way of public information that's shouted to the skies - that might help protect us (that is, our dogs) against over-enthusiastic efforts to keep ticks or fleas off them.

Adding here my continuing best wishes for Kodi and Karen.

Fri, 9 Mar 2012 07:24:14 (PST)


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## Missy

Oh Karen, I am sorry to hear this. I so wish he had turned the corner. If you really feel it is tick related, I would find a way to get him to take the doxy and just start it. I know it is hard when he is not eating, but you can put it down his throat. If you haven't done it before, you put it as far back as you can reach, hold his mouth shut. and then stroke their throats to make him swallow. 

also, so you know, there is a new emergency clinic in Natick right behind Petco. They are the In-Town Referral Hospital. We had great results with their hospital in Woburn (albeit expensive.)


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## motherslittlehelper

Karen, so sorry the worry continues. Thinking of you and wishing the best for our Kodi!


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## ShirleyH

Karen, please tell me what they are treating the coccidia with. This is exactly what Keeper had and I've never seen a sicker dog. He had to stay overnight at the emergency vet because of dehydration. When they hadn't really identified the parasite specifically (in spite of blood tests), they treated with something that didn't hit the coccidia. It returned, although not as badly, two weeks later when he was treated with the right meds. I can't remember the name of the medication but if you tell me what Kodi is taking, I'll know I think. Coccidia traces are not in the stool when it is in active attack, only in-between cycles. I think Kodi will be better very soon, but who knew this was such a terrible parasite and could make them this sick.

Please let me know what the med is.

Keeper's Mom (Shirley H.)


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## krandall

Missy said:


> Oh Karen, I am sorry to hear this. I so wish he had turned the corner. If you really feel it is tick related, I would find a way to get him to take the doxy and just start it. I know it is hard when he is not eating, but you can put it down his throat. If you haven't done it before, you put it as far back as you can reach, hold his mouth shut. and then stroke their throats to make him swallow.
> 
> also, so you know, there is a new emergency clinic in Natick right behind Petco. They are the In-Town Referral Hospital. We had great results with their hospital in Woburn (albeit expensive.)


The whole thing didn't sit right, so I talked with a friend who is a consulting vet for Idexx. He strongly suggested that I get him to an internist. So I called Tufts, and they set me up with a board certified internist at noon tomorrow. I feel better that we're at least DOING something now.


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## CarolWCamelo

I totally agree with taking Kodi to a board-certified internist. Very glad you got an appointment for Kodi, Karen. I'll be watching for your updates. This is really miserable for you and Kodi, and I trust the work with the internist will produce useful results, and ease your mind as well.

Lots of love and hugs,
Fri, 9 Mar 2012 09:18:08 (PST)


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## Beau's mom

Karen --
So sorry Kodi is slow to get better. With all the antibiotics he has to take, his bowels are sure to be in an uproar!! The antibiotics kill both good and bad bugs in the system, and we need the good bugs. (Hard to believe there is such a thing, isn't it??) Anyway, even though you're giving him probiotics, a cup of yogurt each day is a good idea. Make sure you give him the kind with "natural cultures" (like Dannon). Most dogs love yogurt and so he may be more than willing to eat it (Beau likes peach). As long as he's not allergic to anything in it, it should help. BTW, it's a good idea for humans,too.[/COLOR]


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## CarolWCamelo

Wow - a cup a day of (active, live culture) yogurt strikes me as being an awful lot, with a further potential to upset the bowels.

My holistic (and allopathic) vet suggested a heaping teaspoon, twice a day, as being plenty sufficient as a probiotic. Waiting to see what you decide about that, Karen.

Fri, 9 Mar 2012 09:22:54 (PST)


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## krandall

ShirleyH said:


> Karen, please tell me what they are treating the coccidia with. This is exactly what Keeper had and I've never seen a sicker dog. He had to stay overnight at the emergency vet because of dehydration. When they hadn't really identified the parasite specifically (in spite of blood tests), they treated with something that didn't hit the coccidia. It returned, although not as badly, two weeks later when he was treated with the right meds. I can't remember the name of the medication but if you tell me what Kodi is taking, I'll know I think. Coccidia traces are not in the stool when it is in active attack, only in-between cycles. I think Kodi will be better very soon, but who knew this was such a terrible parasite and could make them this sick.
> 
> Please let me know what the med is.
> 
> Keeper's Mom (Shirley H.)


Hi Shirley, while I'm sure that they are right that Kodi has Coccidia in his system, I DON'T think that is what is making him sick. Except for two loose stools (explained as easily by the penicillin as the Coccidia) he hasn't had any diarrhea, hasn't been vomiting, no sign of intestinal distress, He is well hydrated... if anything, he is drinking and peeing more than usual.

The med they gave him for the Coccidia is Ponazuril.


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## krandall

CarolWCamelo said:


> Wow - a cup a day of (active, live culture) yogurt strikes me as being an awful lot, with a further potential to upset the bowels.
> 
> My holistic (and allopathic) vet suggested a heaping teaspoon, twice a day, as being plenty sufficient as a probiotic. Waiting to see what you decide about that, Karen.
> 
> Fri, 9 Mar 2012 09:22:54 (PST)


I was thinking the same thing, Carol! A cup of yogurt for a dog who only gets a TOTAL of 1/2 cup of food a day sounds excessive!

I don't like to change too many things at once. He already takes the probiotics, and I often give him a double dose when we are competing, so I knew his system tolerates that well. Likewise, I've used pumpkin for him before, though usually for constipation rather than loose stools. Still I knew he tolerated it well. The combination of chicken with rice, pumpkin and probiotics seemed to do the trick... his stools this morning looked completely normal. People need to remember, too, this is NOT a primary intestinal problem. He has had two soft, "slushy" stools, at normal times. The problem was more for me, since he's a long haired white dog. If he had short hair, I night not have even noticed. (well, I would have noticed the accident in the house, but you know what I mean!:biggrin1 A lot of people here on teh forum talk about "butt baths" like they are routine with their Havs. I've just been very lucky that Kodi's stools, in general, are very consistent, and firm enough that they don't get on his coat.


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## Beau's mom

CarolWCamelo said:


> Wow - a cup a day of (active, live culture) yogurt strikes me as being an awful lot, with a further potential to upset the bowels.
> 
> My holistic (and allopathic) vet suggested a heaping teaspoon, twice a day, as being plenty sufficient as a probiotic. Waiting to see what you decide about that, Karen.
> 
> Fri, 9 Mar 2012 09:22:54 (PST)


Sorry, I didn't mean a literal cup. I usually share a small container with Beau, giving him a few teaspoons. Even so, I can't see how yogurt can do more harm!


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## Beau's mom

*Just trying to be helpful . . .*


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## ShirleyH

Karen,

Ponazuril is a brand name for Marquis which put Keeper to rights quite quickly when the diagnosis was coccidia and apparently that's all it was. I'm hoping that's the case with Kodi. As I said, it was shocking that coccidia could make a dog that sick, but so it was.

Please update and hopefully with very good news.

Keeper's Mom (Shirley H)


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## Missy

glad you are going to tufts and seeing an internist. sending out healing vibes to Kodi.


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## morriscsps

I am glad you made the appointment. Otherwise you would spend the whole weekend staring at Kodi and driving yourself insane. 

I don't know how many times I have hauled the kids and beasties to their doctors because I sensed something was off. Of course, none of the tests show anything until you haul them back two days later when they are really sick. 

You know your furbaby best. Do what you think feels right. 

:grouphug: Good luck tomorrow.


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## jessegirl

Hi Karen. What a horribly long time to wait with no real answers. I really hope the internist can give you something concrete. Fingers crossed.


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## LunasMom

You certainly did the right thing in making the internist appt! I hate weekends with a sick puppy or child or even us. I envy the resources you have in the Boston area (an internist at Tufts--wow). We lived there for a year many moons ago (40 years) and had a world class pediatrician (T. Berry Brazelton) and world class vets even though DH was still in grad school so we were poor.  We don't have that sort of expertise here but I can at least talk to my vet on weekends and probably get to see him if I had an emergency. Please let us know what the internist says as soon as you are able. Give Kodi a big hug from his look-alike friend Luna.


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## krandall

Beau's mom said:


> *Just trying to be helpful . . .*


Oh, I know that, Lorraine, and I thank you for any thoughts!


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## krandall

morriscsps said:


> I don't know how many times I have hauled the kids and beasties to their doctors because I sensed something was off. Of course, none of the tests show anything until you haul them back two days later when they are really sick.


ound: So true. The good news is that when I explained what was going on, and that I knew for sure that he had had tick bites in the last month, they said I was absolutely right to be concerned, and was doing the right thing to bring him in. At least they didn't make me feel like a hysterical mother.<g>

I should know better... I was sent home from the ER THREE times one night with my older son when he was a baby with asthma, with instructions to "keep an eye on him". By dawn he was in severe respiratory distress and had to be hospitalized and on oxygen for a week. I should have stuck to my guns and refused to leave the hospital when I first brought him in. I learned my lesson with him, and NEVER let them send him home again if I didn't feel comfortable. Fortunately, the pediatrician gave a standing order that he was to be admitted if I said so.

But sometimes, with kids AND with pets, you just feel like you're being "handled", and the professionals aren't really listening to you. That's how I felt yesterday. I felt SO much better when my friend, (the one from Idexx) who lectures to vets world wide said that if it was HIS dog, he wouldn't be waiting till Monday to "see what happens".


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## krandall

jessegirl said:


> Hi Karen. What a horribly long time to wait with no real answers. I really hope the internist can give you something concrete. Fingers crossed.


I hope they can give me a concrete answer, but I also understand that just like with people, you don't always GET concrete answers with illnesses. I will be happy if an EXPERT in internal medicine will tell me FOR SURE, that this isn't one of the TBD's. If they can't tell me that for sure, I want him treated as if it is. The consequences of NOT treating are just too severe. It seems to me that in the absence of a clear reason for his symptoms, we should be treating it as if it IS a TBD.


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## krandall

LunasMom said:


> You certainly did the right thing in making the internist appt! I hate weekends with a sick puppy or child or even us. I envy the resources you have in the Boston area (an internist at Tufts--wow). We lived there for a year many moons ago (40 years) and had a world class pediatrician (T. Berry Brazelton) and world class vets even though DH was still in grad school so we were poor.  We don't have that sort of expertise here but I can at least talk to my vet on weekends and probably get to see him if I had an emergency. Please let us know what the internist says as soon as you are able. Give Kodi a big hug from his look-alike friend Luna.


From talking to my friend at Idexx, I found that there are actually 3 different 24 hour emergency clinics with on-staff internists within an hour drive of here. The one he really wanted me to see is in Waltham, but she doesn't work Fri-Sun, so it's likely I couldn't have even gotten to see her until Tues. Because it's an Emergency clinic, if he were acutely ill, I could have brought him in, and they would stabilize him over the weekend, but they wouldn't really do anything diagnostic until the weekend was over. And most of the off-hours vets in these places are interns... fine for an emergency and stabilization, not so great for a mystery illness.

Tufts is only a little more than 1/2 hour from me, and when they heard what was going on, they said they would fit him in with the internist on staff tomorrow. So it was kind of a no-brainer. (except that I know it's going to cost me two arms and at least one leg!) There's a third emergency clinic in Brockton with an on-staff internist, but that's a good hour from here. Still, it's nice to know what all the options are.


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## Missy

krandall said:


> ound: So true. The good news is that when I explained what was going on, and that I knew for sure that he had had tick bites in the last month, they said I was absolutely right to be concerned, and was doing the right thing to bring him in. At least they didn't make me feel like a hysterical mother.<g>
> 
> I should know better... I was sent home from the ER THREE times one night with my older son when he was a baby with asthma, with instructions to "keep an eye on him". By dawn he was in severe respiratory distress and had to be hospitalized and on oxygen for a week. I should have stuck to my guns and refused to leave the hospital when I first brought him in. I learned my lesson with him, and NEVER let them send him home again if I didn't feel comfortable. Fortunately, the pediatrician gave a standing order that he was to be admitted if I said so.
> 
> But sometimes, with kids AND with pets, you just feel like you're being "handled", and the professionals aren't really listening to you. That's how I felt yesterday. I felt SO much better when my friend, (the one from Idexx) who lectures to vets world wide said that if it was HIS dog, he wouldn't be waiting till Monday to "see what happens".


Great that you were not treated like a CDL. And so wonderful you have a friend who can help. The crazy thing is Vets take lyme disease more seriously than most doctors and dogs get bet care usually.

just wanted to share something I do in addition to the Frontline. we use 
tick guard. I usually just pour some in the unscented wipes we use for paws and muzzles so that every time we wipe them down they get a little extra protection. I even water it down a bit. I don't think this would work alone, but it could act as a slight deterrent. And it is just organic oils and smells like rosemary and cedar.

http://www.iherb.com/Botanical-Solutions-Tick-Guard-Tick-Repellent-4-fl-oz-116-ml/8487?at=0


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## krandall

Missy said:


> Great that you were not treated like a CDL. And so wonderful you have a friend who can help. The crazy thing is Vets take lyme disease more seriously than most doctors and dogs get bet care usually.
> 
> just wanted to share something I do in addition to the Frontline. we use
> tick guard. I usually just pour some in the unscented wipes we use for paws and muzzles so that every time we wipe them down they get a little extra protection. I even water it down a bit. I don't think this would work alone, but it could act as a slight deterrent. And it is just organic oils and smells like rosemary and cedar.
> 
> http://www.iherb.com/Botanical-Solutions-Tick-Guard-Tick-Repellent-4-fl-oz-116-ml/8487?at=0


Just ordered it! I figure it can't hurt, and if it makes the ticks think twice before hitching a ride, so much the better!


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## TilliesMom

so sorry you and Kodi are going through this Karen... how is he feeling today??


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## krandall

TilliesMom said:


> so sorry you and Kodi are going through this Karen... how is he feeling today??


Meh. He's not scary, the way he was on Monday and Tues., but he definitely doesn't have anything like his normal energy level. I'm looking forward to being able to take him to the specialist tomorrow.


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## Jan D

Hope you get to the bottom of this soon Karen. So sorry to hear what you and Kodi have been going through. We send our best wishes


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## dodrop82

Good luck tomorrow! Time for some answers, for sure!!! And time for the boy to get better!


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## misstray

Hope you get some definitive answers at the specialist. Feel better Kodi.


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## morriscsps

krandall said:


> Tufts is only a little more than 1/2 hour from me, and when they heard what was going on, they said they would fit him in with the internist on staff tomorrow.


Is that the one in Walpole? I have been there when Nessie got a vicious UTI on a Sat. night. The wait was long, the fees 3x as expensive but Nessie is worth it. Good luck tomorrow.


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## krandall

morriscsps said:


> Is that the one in Walpole? I have been there when Nessie got a vicious UTI on a Sat. night. The wait was long, the fees 3x as expensive but Nessie is worth it. Good luck tomorrow.


Yes, it's the one in Walpole. Kodi was there last year when he had the partial obstruction due to a Greenie. And, yes, going in on an emergency basis at 11PM, we had a LONG wait. And having him hospitalized there was VERY expensive. I think the whole thing ended up costing us $1,600.

This is different, though, since we are going in for a scheduled office visit/consult. I'm sure it will cost us, but not like an emergency hospitalization.


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## The Laughing Magpie

Karen, I had hoped that Kodi was feeling better today, I am glad you are seeking a second opinion, sometimes it just makes us feel better and sometimes it gives us a whole different diagnosis. As you know I always recomend going to a specialist if your pup has something that just is not getting better, it is well worth the added expense and sometimes in the long run it saves you money and your dog gets better quickly.


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## Missy

When we took Jasper to to tufts in walpole for a scheduled eye exam and consult I thought they were quite reasonable. I believe the hour long appt was only $200. And I thought they were wonderful. Kodi will in good hands.


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## pjewel

I had so hoped Kodi would be on the mend by now. It is so frightening when they are sick and can't tell us what's wrong. Maybe you'll get a definitive diagnosis tomorrow. I'll check back for an update.

I'm so grateful ticks are not a significant problem here.


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## CarolWCamelo

krandall said:


> Yes, it's the one in Walpole. Kodi was there last year when he had the partial obstruction due to a Greenie. And, yes, going in on an emergency basis at 11PM, we had a LONG wait. And having him hospitalized there was VERY expensive. I think the whole thing ended up costing us $1,600.
> 
> This is different, though, since we are going in for a scheduled office visit/consult. I'm sure it will cost us, but not like an emergency hospitalization.


Gosh! What did they do about the obstructing Greenie? I used to give those to my Australian Terriers, who did tend to chew them up well. Haven't tried them with Camellia; I stay with bully sticks for her. And take them away when they get rather short - fear of a short one jamming in her mouth.

Wishing you a really good and productive session with the internist today, Karen - I'll be hanging on your words.

Sat, 10 Mar 2012 05:05:48 (PST) (a day ahead of the time change)


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## Missy

Good luck today.


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## Suzi

Were thinking of you Kodi. We all want you to get better soon!:thumb:


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## krandall

CarolWCamelo said:


> Gosh! What did they do about the obstructing Greenie? I used to give those to my Australian Terriers, who did tend to chew them up well. Haven't tried them with Camellia; I stay with bully sticks for her. And take them away when they get rather short - fear of a short one jamming in her mouth.
> 
> Wishing you a really good and productive session with the internist today, Karen - I'll be hanging on your words.
> 
> Sat, 10 Mar 2012 05:05:48 (PST) (a day ahead of the time change)


We were lucky, because it was only a partial obstruction, and it did end up softening up enough to pass. But he was a very sick doggy, and was hospitalized for several days to keep him hydrated and control his pain. (they did intermittent ultrasounds to make sure things kept moving... that was the most expensive part) Then he did enough damage to his insides that he had to be on meds to coat his stomach for a couple of months more. Otherwise he would start to get painful again.

The people at Tufts told me that Greenies are the #1 cause of obstructions that they see come into the ER. Kodi will never have another one!!!


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## krandall

Thanks everyone. We're off to Tufts now. I'll let you know what happens!


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## Suzi

krandall said:


> Hi Shirley, while I'm sure that they are right that Kodi has Coccidia in his system, I DON'T think that is what is making him sick. Except for two loose stools (explained as easily by the penicillin as the Coccidia) he hasn't had any diarrhea, hasn't been vomiting, no sign of intestinal distress, He is well hydrated... if anything, he is drinking and peeing more than usual.
> 
> The med they gave him for the Coccidia is Ponazuril.


 I miss your post about the Coccidia. Maddie came to us at 8 weeks old with that. She was pretty sick but not like the way Kodi is acting. She didn't have the muscle joint pain. I do remember however when the Breeder brought out her mother she was very sick. That was the week before we picked her up. They thought she was having troubles weaning her puppies. They commented she had never acted this way before after weaning. They were holding her. Maybe it effects adult dog more so than a puppy. We had picked her up on Friday by Monday I was concerned found out she had Coccidia cant remember what medication she got. I could also see the Coccidia in her poop. Her breeder should have noticed. He later said they can get it from mouse drippings.


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## krandall

OK, we're back from Tufts. I really liked the Dr. there. I had written down exactly what had happened when for the whole week, and he actually took the time to READ it. He agreed that he found it very hard to believe that Coccidia was causing Kodi's symptoms. He said that Coccidia usually isn't a problem except in puppies and imuno-supressed dogs, and you wouldn't see the over-all discomfort and lack of energy that Kodi has without debilitating diarrhea. (which he has never had)

As far as a TBD, he said we can't rule that in OR out right now. He is in that "window" where the tests just don't show it. He said that if Kodi showed clearer signs, and had a fever, AND if he hadn't already shown a tummy sensitivity to one ABX, he'd just put him on Doxy anyway. But he said that the ABX might make him feel much worse, and could interfere with the production of enough antibodies to ever get a positive test. So he said that he would prefer to wait a week or two and test him again. At that point, if it IS a TBD, he should test positive. (obviously, if he showed more definitive clinical signs in the interim, we could begin treatment too)

So, based on his symptoms, he said that Kodi was showing clear signs of pain, but not exactly WHERE the pain was. He said his hunched posture made him guess either pancreatitis or a paraspinal muscle injury. He took bloodwork to investigate the possibility of pancreatitis, but he said that if that's what it is, it's mild, and will most likely resolve on its own. 

He was great about discussing optional tests with me. He said we could do an ultrasound to look at his pancreas, but that he thinks this is mild enough that we most likely wouldn't see anything anyway. Likewise, he said we could x-ray his spine, but if it's a soft tissue injury, we wouldn't see anything anyway. The other problem with either test is that if he struggled, they could make a muscle injury worse. So taken all together, we decided to put off any imaging for now.

So here's the plan for now. He put him on Tramadol to control his pain, and Pepcid to reduce acid in his stomach. (which I guess can make pancreatitis worse) I'm supposed to keep him quiet for 2-4 weeks in case it is a muscle injury. The Tramadol will help with that as it is somewhat sedating. He said that if it IS an injury, the problem is that he will start to feel better and want to be more active before it is really healed. They will call me toward the end of the week to tell me the results of the bloodwork for his pancreas. Then, assuming he continues to slowly improve, I am supposed to bring him back in a week for them to draw blood to check again for a TBD, and also to re-check his white cell count (which was low the first time... the local vet didn't mention that to me) an his protein level, which was also low. The protein level was probably low because he hadn't eaten anything in 36 hours when it was done, but they just want to follow up on it.

So, we still don't have anything definitive, but at least we have a plan that makes sense to me, and I feel like he's getting the best care I can get for him. ... and going in for an office visit, rather than on an emergency basis, it really wasn't much different from my local vet cost-wise.


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## krandall

Suzi said:


> I miss your post about the Coccidia. Maddie came to us at 8 weeks old with that. She was pretty sick but not like the way Kodi is acting. She didn't have the muscle joint pain. I do remember however when the Breeder brought out her mother she was very sick. That was the week before we picked her up. They thought she was having troubles weaning her puppies. They commented she had never acted this way before after weaning. They were holding her. Maybe it effects adult dog more so than a puppy. We had picked her up on Friday by Monday I was concerned found out she had Coccidia cant remember what medication she got. I could also see the Coccidia in her poop. Her breeder should have noticed. He later said they can get it from mouse drippings.


Hi Suzi,

The vet actually said that puppies are typically affected much worse than adult dogs with Coccidia. I don't know what you saw in her poop, but it wasn't Coccidia... maybe she had another parasite too. Coccidia is a unicellular creature, and can only be seen with a microscope. Coccidia is really, really common, because it is everywhere in the environment. It can just be in the soil. Adult dogs can have it in their systems for years and be totally asymptomatic.

The vet agreed with me that while it's good that we treated the Coccidia, (you don't want your dog shedding that and potentially infecting other dogs) that's NOT what is causing Kodi's symptoms.


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## Kathie

I'm glad you feel the vet appt. was productive. He sounds very good and not too test-happy like some. At least now you can feel somewhat relieved and Kodi should, too, with the Tramadol. It seems like a reasonable plan for now.


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## ShirleyH

Karen, I'm glad you're feeling better about the tests being done and not done. Hopefully this will resolve shortly whatever it is. The TBD is, of course, a possibility and would need a little time.

As for coccidia, Keeper was not a young puppy when he had it and got it from a young puppy that had been sent to his breeder who was showing Keeper. As I recall, he was perhaps 8-9 months old and we had no reason to believe he had suppressed immunity.
That being said, the emergency vets and his own vet were very surprised that he was so ill. He certainly did have diarrhea. He did not show signs of real pain, just illness and feeling terrible with very high fever and dehydration. This doesn't sound like Kodi's problem. 

Please let us know how Kodi is doing and we hope for steady improvement.

Keeper's Mom


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## whimsy

sounds like a good plan to me and so glad you felt confident with this doctor and his reccomendations for treatment. Hope Kodi is as good as new quickly!


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## Miss Paige

Karen,

Just catching up today-so sorry to hear about Kodi-give him a Special hug from us-and tell him we hope he feels better really soon. I agree with you-it did not sound like coccidia-we have had that here-round of meds and me cleaning & diisinfecting the yard helped that problem. Keep us posted.

Pat (humom to)
Miss Paige
Mr Roman
Ms T (for now)


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## The Laughing Magpie

It is really great when you find a Vet that will listen. I very much like my Vets but sometimes I have to remind them that not all dogs or owners are the same and some of us take responsibility, need to know the full picture, and comply fully with instructions. The world of a Veterinary practice is often a busy place, that is not our worry, sometimes we need our Vet to slow down. Hope Kodi gets to feeling right soon.


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## morriscsps

I am glad there is a plan. I know I always feel better when there is a plan. 

I hope that you guys have a nice, quiet and restful weekend.


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## krandall

ShirleyH said:


> Karen, I'm glad you're feeling better about the tests being done and not done. Hopefully this will resolve shortly whatever it is. The TBD is, of course, a possibility and would need a little time.
> 
> As for coccidia, Keeper was not a young puppy when he had it and got it from a young puppy that had been sent to his breeder who was showing Keeper. As I recall, he was perhaps 8-9 months old and we had no reason to believe he had suppressed immunity.
> That being said, the emergency vets and his own vet were very surprised that he was so ill. He certainly did have diarrhea. He did not show signs of real pain, just illness and feeling terrible with very high fever and dehydration. This doesn't sound like Kodi's problem.
> 
> Please let us know how Kodi is doing and we hope for steady improvement.
> 
> Keeper's Mom


Yes, that was the point. While he may have tested positive, he hasn't had ANY of those symptoms.


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## krandall

Thanks everyone! Now, the hardest part will be keeping him quiet for the next few weeks. We're not even supposed to let him go up and down stairs or jump on and off furniture by himself. We'll also miss our first agility trial at the end of the month.

The up side is that he said he can still do his next Rally trial, which is in two weeks.


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## LunasMom

I guess the really good news is that the internist didn't suggest the possibility of really horrid stuff. I know you wanted to hear a specific "this is it" but smart as you are you knew that was an unlikely outcome. I am a bit surprised at a "possible mild pancreatitis". I thought they ran a temp with that. My daughter's sheltie got a bad case from eating a piece of bread on the road that was infested with ants. (She grabbed it so fast and downed it there was no chance to stop her.) We were in the Keys at the time and did have to do emergency vet. Anyway, the tramadol will do a lot for pain. For her last year, our husky was on 6 pills/day (50 mg) when the rimadyl could no longer be used. Of course she was 75 lbs and a northern primitive!


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## Atticus

Karen thanks for the update! Hope he is better soon,bummer about the Agility trial, he will be that much more ready. Good Luck keeping him quiet,that was really hard with Atticus and his neutering stitches.


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## Carefulove

I'm keeping your little guy in my thoughts Karen.


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## CarolWCamelo

krandall said:


> We were lucky, because it was only a partial obstruction, and it did end up softening up enough to pass. But he was a very sick doggy, and was hospitalized for several days to keep him hydrated and control his pain. (they did intermittent ultrasounds to make sure things kept moving... that was the most expensive part) Then he did enough damage to his insides that he had to be on meds to coat his stomach for a couple of months more. Otherwise he would start to get painful again.
> 
> The people at Tufts told me that Greenies are the #1 cause of obstructions that they see come into the ER. Kodi will never have another one!!!


That's REALLY scary about the Greenies! My vets used to have Greenies on their front counter, but they no longer do. Hmmm. Glad Kodi got by without surgery for the obstruction. But the consequences were considerable. And I even watch the bully sticks with care; don't want Camellia swallowing a big piece! I give her foot-long sticks, and take them away when they're three or even four - inches long. It's much cheaper to keep buying bully sticks than it is to incur a vet bill - or - to have any kind of damage to the dog. I also stay away from all rawhides, as they have their own hazards. So Camellia is limited to bully sticks for her chewies. She doesn't seem to mind!

Now to catch up with your report, which, I see, is in - I'm running a bit behind, here.

Sat, 10 Mar 2012 18:46:28 (PST) Time change tonight!


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## CarolWCamelo

So now, I've read your report. Sounds like a wonderful vet! Everything made wonderful sense to me.. And like the others, I'm glad you have a plan.

Keeping a naturally active dog quiet for two to four weeks is no easy task, especially when the dog starts to feel better. Maybe your house resembles mine, in having all sorts of ex-pen panels all over the place, making fences in the house.

Then, too, I've turned my coffee table on its side and butted it up against the couch, so the dogs couldn't get up on the couch, and therefore, not jump off it, either! And lived that way for weeks at a time. And I had elaborate fences around my bed, with steps up to the bed. I had a heck of a time getting in and out of bed myself! All for the dogs, though.

So, we have at least a week to wait before we know more about the possibility of Tick-Borne-Disease with Kodi. I'm hoping it's NOT that. Wouldn't it be great if it turned out to be soft tissue injury. Only. Nothing else. I do know that can make a dog feel very sore!

Please keep up your reports, Karen. Camellia sends Kodi her warmest greetings, and waves her Magnificent Magic Wand in his favor and yours. My Magic Wand isn't nearly as magnificent, but I wave it to the best of my ability, sharing in Camellia's greeting.

Sat, 10 Mar 2012 19:05:20 (PST) Time change coming up.


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## krandall

LunasMom said:


> I guess the really good news is that the internist didn't suggest the possibility of really horrid stuff. I know you wanted to hear a specific "this is it" but smart as you are you knew that was an unlikely outcome. I am a bit surprised at a "possible mild pancreatitis". I thought they ran a temp with that. My daughter's sheltie got a bad case from eating a piece of bread on the road that was infested with ants. (She grabbed it so fast and downed it there was no chance to stop her.) We were in the Keys at the time and did have to do emergency vet. Anyway, the tramadol will do a lot for pain. For her last year, our husky was on 6 pills/day (50 mg) when the rimadyl could no longer be used. Of course she was 75 lbs and a northern primitive!


A definitive answer would be nice, but I've known from the beginning that you don't always get that... Don't with people either. I just wanted someone to look at thw EHOLE picture and take everything into account. From everything I'd read, it just didn't seem possible that Coccidia was causing his discomfort, and once my local vet glommed onto that idea, I couldn't get them to see the rest of what was going on. I just don't want to miss something.

The tramadol is already making him more comfortable.


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## krandall

Atticus said:


> Karen thanks for the update! Hope he is better soon,bummer about the Agility trial, he will be that much more ready. Good Luck keeping him quiet,that was really hard with Atticus and his neutering stitches.


Well, the vet said that the tramodol could be sedating, and maybe it is. But I think he's so much more comfortable with it, that he wants to move around more. i'm glad he's feeling better, but we've got to really watch him!


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## krandall

CarolWCamelo said:


> That's REALLY scary about the Greenies! My vets used to have Greenies on their front counter, but they no longer do. Hmmm. Glad Kodi got by without surgery for the obstruction. But the consequences were considerable. And I even watch the bully sticks with care; don't want Camellia swallowing a big piece! I give her foot-long sticks, and take them away when they're three or even four - inches long. It's much cheaper to keep buying bully sticks than it is to incur a vet bill - or - to have any kind of damage to the dog. I also stay away from all rawhides, as they have their own hazards. So Camellia is limited to bully sticks for her chewies. She doesn't seem to mind!
> 
> Now to catch up with your report, which, I see, is in - I'm running a bit behind, here.
> 
> Sat, 10 Mar 2012 18:46:28 (PST) Time change tonight!


I think that for most dogs, bully sticks are a much safer alternative. Unfortunately, Kodi can't eat beef, so they are out for us. He likes the moose antlers, and for something that is more "edible", he really likes the Himalayan chews. And now that I know the microwave trick, ther's no waste with those!


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## Missy

Hi Karen, isn't wonderful when you have a Vet that gets it. It sounds like a good plan. and I am glad the tramadol is giving him relief. I hope this all just resolves itself. 

Tell me about the himaylayin chews and the microwave trick? Do the chews last a while? 
Kodi likes moose antlers more than deer antlers? The boys don't love the the deer antlers. 

For some reason buffalo/bison is not the same as beef and many dogs that can't do beef can do bison. And I know you can find bison bully sticks.


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## Kalico

Just caught up on this thread. Glad you found a good vet! Hope it resolves and Kodi and the quiet time passes quickly!


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## krandall

Missy said:


> Hi Karen, isn't wonderful when you have a Vet that gets it. It sounds like a good plan. and I am glad the tramadol is giving him relief. I hope this all just resolves itself.
> 
> Tell me about the himaylayin chews and the microwave trick? Do the chews last a while?
> Kodi likes moose antlers more than deer antlers? The boys don't love the the deer antlers.
> 
> For some reason buffalo/bison is not the same as beef and many dogs that can't do beef can do bison. And I know you can find bison bully sticks.


The Himalayan chews are a very, VERY hard cheese made from Yak and cows milk in Nepal and parts of India. It chews at about the same rate as a bully stick, maybe a bit slower. (it's REALLY hard) The nice thing is that Heather just told us that when you get to that small, "unsafe" stage (even though the distributors say it is safe even then, because it digests more completely/easily than bully sticks, etc.) you can put the small piece in the microwave. Because it IS cheese, it puffs up and then gets crispy. At that point, you can just break it apart and use the remains as small treats, so you don't waste any.:biggrin1:

Kodi DEFINITELY likes moose antlers better than deer. The moose antlers are cut across the blade, so there is more of the inner part exposed. It seems to taste better, AND they can chew it out more easily. It's still one of the harder chews, but it's not like "just" bone. His favorite are the boiled "flavored" antlers from Acadia Antlers. Those are even softer (again, they can work them down like a bully stick) and seem to be more highly flavored. (they also smell more, but not as bad as a bully stick)

Kodi is NOT allergic to Bison. I had no idea you could get Bison bully sticks, (though they have the same, er, "equipment", so it makes sense!:biggrin1 I'll have to keep an eye out for them!


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## Missy

Pet World has the bison bully sticks. I think especially for pets too. I Will have to try the moose antlers and the hymalaen chews. I've seen the chews but do you get the moose antlers locally? 

How is Kodi doing today?


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## Suzi

krandall said:


> Hi Suzi,
> 
> The vet actually said that puppies are typically affected much worse than adult dogs with Coccidia. I don't know what you saw in her poop, but it wasn't Coccidia... maybe she had another parasite too. Coccidia is a unicellular creature, and can only be seen with a microscope. Coccidia is really, really common, because it is everywhere in the environment. It can just be in the soil. Adult dogs can have it in their systems for years and be totally asymptomatic.
> 
> The vet agreed with me that while it's good that we treated the Coccidia, (you don't want your dog shedding that and potentially infecting other dogs) that's NOT what is causing Kodi's symptoms.


 Okay so I could be dreaming. I remember now it was after she started the medication. I could see hard shell like walnut color in her poop. And I seem to remember the vet telling me I would see that? I couldn't find any thing on Google. 
We are still thinking of Kodi and hope he is better today. Plus tell him keeping low will be like a vacation. I know it will be difficult keeping a active athletic dog like him to stay low key I wounder if it is a stress if stretching somehow would be good? Or Massage?


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## jabojenny

krandall said:


> The Himalayan chews are a very, VERY hard cheese made from Yak and cows milk in Nepal and parts of India. It chews at about the same rate as a bully stick, maybe a bit slower. (it's REALLY hard) The nice thing is that Heather just told us that when you get to that small, "unsafe" stage (even though the distributors say it is safe even then, because it digests more completely/easily than bully sticks, etc.) you can put the small piece in the microwave. Because it IS cheese, it puffs up and then gets crispy. At that point, you can just break it apart and use the remains as small treats, so you don't waste any.:biggrin1:


Thank you for this tip. I just placed a Cherrybrook order for Timmy's first CC comb and I got a Himalayan chew to try too. Timmy also has a moose antler, gift from his grand mom, and he LOVES that too. He brought it outside with him the other day when we were just relaxing in the back yard. I had to remember to bring it inside though, 'cause they aren't cheap.


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## krandall

Missy said:


> Pet World has the bison bully sticks. I think especially for pets too. I Will have to try the moose antlers and the hymalaen chews. I've seen the chews but do you get the moose antlers locally?
> 
> How is Kodi doing today?


I'm in Especially For Pets regularly so I'll check there. If not, I can make a run over to Pet World.

We get our moose antlers from:

http://acadiaantlers.weebly.com

Really nice people!

Kodi seems more comfortable today, but sleepy... kind of what you'd expect on the pain meds!<g>

Karen


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## krandall

Suzi said:


> We are still thinking of Kodi and hope he is better today. Plus tell him keeping low will be like a vacation. I know it will be difficult keeping a active athletic dog like him to stay low key I wounder if it is a stress if stretching somehow would be good? Or Massage?


I don't know that I'd want to do any stretching if he might have muscle pulls, but I had the same thought as you about massage. I know there is a woman who does sports massage on a number of the dogs at our training center. I think I'll give him a couple of weeks of complete rest, then see if I can arrange for a couple of sessions with her.

You are right... right now, the pain meds are keeping him quiet, but when he's off those, it could be a LOT harder to keep him down!


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## Missy

glad he is more confrotable. which moose product do you get for Kodi... the small shovel?


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## krandall

Missy said:


> glad he is more confrotable. which moose product do you get for Kodi... the small shovel?


Yes, Kodi likes the shovels best I THINK his are the medium size ones. I'm always afraid of him chewing something down and swallowing it. I may over-size things to start with!:biggrin1: He likes the flavored ones the VERY best, but you have to consider them more of a consumable.


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## Missy

Karen, Just checking to see how Kodi is doing today?


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## krandall

Hi Missy, He seems pretty comfortable with the Tramadol in him. He's sleeping a lot, but I think that's to be expected with the drugs. The only thing I'm still noticing is that he doesn't want to climb the stairs. (which is a good thing) If I go up the stairs without him, he sits at the bottom an cries. Of course, that means I'm breaking my back lugging a 16 lb dog up and down the stairs all day, but...

I talked to Fran Masters (the head trainer/owner of our training facility) and she gave me the name of a vet that they use for sports injuries. She's a vet and a chiropractor. So after his other tests have come back to completely rule out either a TBD or Pancreatitis, I'll make an appointment with her. She should be able to help speed his recovery if it's an injury.


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## TilliesMom

poor guy... don't you wish they could TALK and tell us what is wrong!! sigh...
praying for you and Kodi and be CAREFUL with your back lugging him up and down the stairs!!


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## ShirleyH

Karen, we'll be so glad when you get the tests back and are able to nail this down.
Kisses to Kodi.

Shirley H. (Keeper's Mom)


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## Missy

Sending out virtual hugs and virtual "reiki" like vibes to your little boy.


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## Sheri

Oh, no! I just saw this! Poor Kodi!


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## krandall

Thanks, everyone. We'll keep you posted!


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## Grindstone50

Gee I hope you can find the help he needs. We live in CT and I go to Frontier Medicine in East Granby. They may also have an office up in Springfield area. I can't tell you how happy I am . I have a 14 yr old Eskie, as well as my 2 and 1/2 Havies" My Eskie suffered with a hip injury snd btwn her chiropractic and acupuncture work she is moving quite well and doing the stairs again, comfortably! You may also want to consider water therapy. It too has helped my dog with hip problems. There is a place in Long Meadow, Ma. for that. Good luck Kodi!


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## krandall

Grindstone50 said:


> Gee I hope you can find the help he needs. We live in CT and I go to Frontier Medicine in East Granby. They may also have an office up in Springfield area. I can't tell you how happy I am . I have a 14 yr old Eskie, as well as my 2 and 1/2 Havies" My Eskie suffered with a hip injury snd btwn her chiropractic and acupuncture work she is moving quite well and doing the stairs again, comfortably! You may also want to consider water therapy. It too has helped my dog with hip problems. There is a place in Long Meadow, Ma. for that. Good luck Kodi!


Those are all too far away for us... It's 2 hours to Springfield! But we have good resources in this area too. First we have to get his second set of blood work done on Friday to make sure there isn't something else going on, then I'll set up an appointment with the chiropractor vet near us. This vet works specifically with dogs involved in sports, so I'm confident that she is good at what she does. If she weren't, the people at our (very competitive) training center wouldn't use her. Thanks for the thoughts, though!


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## Atticus

Good to hear he is somewhat on the mend. Hang in there, be careful of your back!!!


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## Missy

How is Kodi today? when do you redo the tick panel? keeping fingers crossed that it was just a minor strain and he just needed a week off from being a typical havie and will be all better soon.


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## krandall

He's really seeming much better. He's still on the Tramadol, of course, but he's eating well, seems perky when he's awake, (still sleeping a lot, but that's from the Tramadol) and is no longer crying at the bottom of the stairs to be carried up. (of course, that means I have to be even more careful, because he's not supposed to be DOING stairs, and he seems to think he's fine.

We re-do the tick panel, and a whole blood chemistry on Friday. If nothing still shows up (I haven't heard back yet on the bloodwork for Pancreatitis, but they said that took a while... either today or tomorrow for that) we can safely assume it's a strain. Then it's just a matter of resting him. (Ha! easier said than done!) The vet said it's REALLY important to rest him long enough, because they are likely to feel better well before the tissues are completely healed. And particularly in a performance dog, small injuries can add up over time and shorten their career if you aren't careful. (just like a human or equine athlete)

I'm feeling more comfortable now, though, that we are exploring all the possibilities thoroughly and that we are ruling out the really dangerous stuff. That was what was worrying me about the local vet's approach. (AND I don't think there's any reason to leave an animal in pain when there are things we can do about it now)

I'm kind of weighing whether I want to stay with my old vet or switch to Tufts on a regular basis. They really weren't much (if any) more expensive than the local vet when it wasn't an emergency, and they have SO much more to offer in terms of specialists on staff. It's further away, (the local vet is, literally walking distance from my house) but at Tufts you can also get help any hour of the day or night. I was impressed with them last winter, but even more impressed about their handling of this non-emergency, but urgent situation.


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## CarolWCamelo

So glad Kodi is feeling better! I HATE any critter (humans included) being in pain or otherwise miserable. I'm just a big crybaby!

I think you're doing everything the best possible way, Karen. I'm personally totally finicky about how I and others care for my dog!

How long a drive is it to Tufts? I'd be greatly inclined to switch over there, trying to do it without burning bridges with the local vet, though after a time, the local vet is sure to notice s/he hasn't seen Kodi for a while!

Tricky business! But having great vets, and everything at hand, seems to me extremely attractive!

Kodi - keep feeling better - but NO STAIRS!

Karen - are you blocking off the stairs? (hehe)

Wed, 14 Mar 2012 08:44:21 (PDT)


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## krandall

Hi Carol, Tufts is a little less than half an hour away, so it's not a TERRIBLY long drive. I think I would want to keep taking our cat and our bird to the local vet, just because the longer car ride would be more stressful for them. So I wouldn't totally be severing ties with the local vets. 

And, yes, when I have to go upstairs for a minute without him, I've been gating off the bottom... He wouldn't even consider going upstairs without me!


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## Carefulove

Glad to hear he is doing better Karen. Keep us posted tomorrow on how it goes!

Poor thing, what will he do without his RLHs...


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## ShirleyH

Karen, did you get test results on Kodi? Thinking of you.


Keeper's Mom


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## krandall

Yes, and I thought I posted last night! Not sure what happened to it, except that I was so tired, maybe I fell asleep in the middle of it!

We went back to Tufts yesterday, and they checked him over and drew more blood to check for TBD and to re-check his protein levels. They had the results of the lab work from last Sat., and no Pancreatitis! :whoo: They also checked him over and said that he looks great physically as well. (he certainly has been acting his frisky self at home!)

The Vet called me in the evening and told be he was still negative for TBD's, so that is ruled out. His protein level is back in the normal range, but just barely. He said he's like to check that again in about 4 months and just make sure it is maintaining in the normal range.

So the working dx at this point is that he strained his paraspinal muscles. Even though he seems fine now, the vet said it was very important to keep him on full rest until the middle of this coming week, at which point we can start slowly increasing his activity level. he said that dogs typically feel fine much sooner than a soft tissue injury is completely healed, and they stand the chance of re-injury if you don't really limit their activity. I've taken him off the Tramadol. Even though it helped keep him quieter, I want to be able to see if he has any discomfort, and the Tramadol masks that. I'll just have to put up with him driving me crazy!

My trainer had suggested that I see a vet/chiropractor who works on a lot of the competition dogs from our training center if they have injuries. It just so happens that this is also Missy's vet (Jasper and Cash) and she recommended her highly as well. So we have an appointment with her on Tues. She should be able to help us get him back in full working order as soon as possible!


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## ShirleyH

Karen, just a huge relief that there is no pancreatitis or even TBD. So scary.

Take good care of the little guy.


Keeper's Mom


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## Suzi

I'm glad he is doing better. So do you remember what he was doing had you guys been jumping the day or night before he got so sore? I wounder if swimming would be good therapy? Give him a big hug from us.


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## krandall

He was at a Rally trial in the morning, and did two (easy) agility demos in the afternoon. The only thing I can think is that the agility demos were on carpet rather than the rubber matting we usually work on. I suppose it's possible that he slipped on the carpeting or caught a nail. He didn't show any sign of pain that day though.


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## Rita Nelson

Karen, I'm so happy to hear Kodi seems to be on the mend. I've been holding my breath hoping for good news (no TBD or pancreatitis). Hopefully, by the time the month is out he'll be as well as ever.


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## LunasMom

So glad to hear the good news Karen. But what a anxious time this has been for you. Luna send Kodi big hug.


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## CarolWCamelo

krandall said:


> He was at a Rally trial in the morning, and did two (easy) agility demos in the afternoon. The only thing I can think is that the agility demos were on carpet rather than the rubber matting we usually work on. I suppose it's possible that he slipped on the carpeting or caught a nail. He didn't show any sign of pain that day though.


I've heard of soft tissue injuries being slow to show up - well, sometimes we see when they happen, but it can be a lot worse the second day.

SO GLAD Kodi doesn't have pancreatitis nor any Tick-Borne Diseases (I have to spell that out for myself, because I'm not current on abbreviations like TBD!)

Good idea on the vet/chiropractor! Do keep us posted!

Camellia sends her warmest greetings to Kodi, and continues waving her Magnificent Magic Wand in his favor!

Sat, 17 Mar 2012 12:11:44 (PDT)


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## HavaneseSoon

So glad we have a diagnosis! And, soooooooooo very glad Kodi if feeling better.


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## krandall

Thanks, everyone! Carol, I think all our guys have a "Magnificent Magic Wand" waving on their little hind ends!:biggrin1:


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## heatherk

:whoo: SO glad it's not something really bad, and that Kodi is feeling better!


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## Missy

Lol. Love "magnificent magic wand." that must be it! Very happy about the test results. You will love dr. Rogers.


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## CarolWCamelo

*Magnificent Magic Wands*



krandall said:


> Thanks, everyone! Carol, I think all our guys have a "Magnificent Magic Wand" waving on their little hind ends!:biggrin1:


Why, Karen, I do believe you are right! Isn't it wonderful and useful! [huge, happy smile!]

Sun, 18 Mar 2012 14:06:47 (PDT)


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## CarolWCamelo

*Magnificent Magic Wands*



Missy said:


> Lol. Love "magnificent magic wand." that must be it! Very happy about the test results. You will love dr. Rogers.


The very best is when our dogs can wave their Magnificent Magic Wands in their OWN favors! (hehe) But they're such generous spirits that usually, they do it for others!

[chuckle!]

Sun, 18 Mar 2012 14:08:40 (PDT)


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## The Laughing Magpie

You must be having a bit of relief knowing that Kodi does not have a major illness. Sounds like he's on the mend, and your on top of making for sure his injury heals completely. I am so happy it was not too major, although if Kodi could talk he would problably say resting al the time is "major".


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## Suzi

How did it go today at the chiropractor? I read your other post about him just laying by you while gardening. Hope the vitamin D helps him heal or just laying low. I think about him often.


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## krandall

We went to the vet/chiropractor today, and she was great!!! She did something for the first time EVER for a vet I've taken one of my critters to. When she came in the room, I went to put him up on the table, and she said, "No, let me just see him on the floor first. She watched him move naturally for a bit, then SHE got down on the floor with him and a handful of yummy treats to make friends. The table she used, instead of being cold, slippery stainless steel had a rubber mat covered with a clean towel. This is clearly someone who understands dogs and knows how to make them comfortable.

She said his back actually feels fine, but she thinks he pulled ligaments in his right hip. She showed my how, if you manipulated it just the right way, you could hear a little clicking noise, and while he's not limping on that leg, he was definitely guarding it more while she was working on him. She said she was quite sure it was a soft tissue injury.

After she adjusted him, she gave me a series of stretches to do with him at home. She said I should stretch him out before he works or does anything strenuous too. She also suggested that I get him a Fitpaws dog exercize ball http://www.ballsnbands.com/fitpaws_dog_egg_exercise_ball.html

to build his core strength. She said that while Havanese aren't as long backed as Corgis (or worse, Doxies!!!) they do benefit from having really strong core muscles to support their longer backs. She said working on the ball for just a few minutes a few days a week really helps them build and maintain core strength. Our last "homework" is to have him WALK (not trot or run, he has to WALK) up a steep hill a few times per week. This not only improves core strength, but also will help strengthen the muscles around his hip to help stabilize the damaged ligaments. Fortunately, we have some steep hills on our property, so I don't need to go far to do that.

Finally, she put him on chondroitin sulphate, and actually suggested that since he was a performance dog, he should probably be on it all the time anyway, just to protect his joints and prolong his performance career. She said he probably should be on glucosamine, but she didn't want to start him on two different supplements at once, in case either bothered his stomach. (because then we wouldn't know which was the problem)

I'm supposed to take him back in two weeks to have her adjust him again, and see how he's coming along.

I was SO impressed with the kind and gentle way she worked with him, the way she explained everything to me, and her thorough approach to the whole problem. I can easily see why Missy goes so far to use this vet!

Thanks, for your thoughts, Suzi. I'm, not sure about the vitamin D, though, did some one mention that, or is that something you've heard could be helpful?


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## Missy

This sounds terrific. I am so glad you got to meet Linda, and she "got" you and Kodi. xoxoxo


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## StarrLhasa

This is such good news about Kodi, his test results and the Vet/Chiropractor. It sounds as if he will be well in no time.


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## Suzi

No I have no idea if a dog absorbs D but I sure could use some.  Glad the appointment went well sounds like the two of you may be getting some good exercise or are hill's hard on your RA?


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## krandall

Suzi said:


> No I have no idea if a dog absorbs D but I sure could use some.  Glad the appointment went well sounds like the two of you may be getting some good exercise or are hill's hard on your RA?


The hills I have on the property are steep, but short. I shouldn't have much trouble with them. It's good for people with RA to keep fit, you just don't want to have a lot of jarring on your joints.


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## rokipiki

Troubles and problems never come alone. They sotr of heap up at the same time. Poor boy Kodi! Get well soon! 
Two months ago I noticed that something went wrong with Roki while practicing some agility jumps. One hour after practice he started to behave strange - curled back, cautious walking, not jumpig to his favourite armchair to rest... he was unwilling to go for a walk and during walk he was looking at me with that expression - "PLS, let's go back home!" He rested that evening, and next morning and he seemed OK and started jumping on furniture again, but not for long. We wnt to the vet and she examined him and said that it seems that he straind muscles (Lower spine and hind legs). To my surprise she pulled out acupuncture needles. He didn't complain and feel asleep during acupuncture session. After that everything was OK - no pain, and no strange movements.


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## CarolWCamelo

I'm so glad Roki is feeling better! Acupunture can be pretty amazing; I've had it myself, to great benefit.

Sending you and Roki our best wishes,
Camellia and Carol
Sat, 24 Mar 2012 08:22:40 (PDT)


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Oh Karen, I just started reading this from the last page, of course, true Gemini...lol..
I am so sorry and did not know anything about what was happening, in part due to my back problems..
So happy to hear of your great visit with the chiropracter..and all about the core stabilization, think I will order that ball too..(might even let Sir Winston and Lady Mia play with it)ound:


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## krandall

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> Oh Karen, I just started reading this from the last page, of course, true Gemini...lol..
> I am so sorry and did not know anything about what was happening, in part due to my back problems..
> So happy to hear of your great visit with the chiropracter..and all about the core stabilization, think I will order that ball too..(might even let Sir Winston and Lady Mia play with it)ound:


Thanks, Flynn! I think he's on the road to recovery.

Just for other people reading about the exercise ball, the vet/chiropracter said that it was VERY important to get this type of ball, and not just try to substitute with a human exercise ball for a Hav. She said that Chihuahuas and some other TINY dogs can get away with human exercise balls, but most Havs are too large and too long for that type of ball. She said you can't do damage using too large a ball, but you CAN by using a ball that is too small and makes the dog hunch to keep all 4 feet on it.

She also said that she likes the egg shaped balls better than the "peanut" balls. She said the peanut balls only roll side to side, so don't work the core muscles as much as the eggs, which roll both ways. (side to side and front to back)


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

I think Kodi is around 14 lbs? Mine are both bigger..I guess you go by the weight, and I am happy you told me about the correct ball, I thought about ordering the flat/square pad to see if they would use it. I like the fact the ball is textured so that it is more secure for the dog. Please let me know how you progress with Kodi, I am so happy he is improving! (just ordered Yoga for Arthritis/Peggy Cappy)..for me..lol...surprised there is not Yoga for dogs...or is there?


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## krandall

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> I think Kodi is around 14 lbs? Mine are both bigger..I guess you go by the weight, and I am happy you told me about the correct ball, I thought about ordering the flat/square pad to see if they would use it. I like the fact the ball is textured so that it is more secure for the dog. Please let me know how you progress with Kodi, I am so happy he is improving! (just ordered Yoga for Arthritis/Peggy Cappy)..for me..lol...surprised there is not Yoga for dogs...or is there?


Kodi is 16 1/2 lbs. He's a small dog, but a big Hav!


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## HavaneseHannah

I suggest you go to the groomer to get the ticks removed. You may have to use strong products to remove the ticks. Ticks can cause lots of sickness to your dog and to you.


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## wynne

poor sweet Kodi. Hope he gets better soon. Keep us posted.:grouphug:


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## krandall

HavaneseHannah said:


> I suggest you go to the groomer to get the ticks removed. You may have to use strong products to remove the ticks. Ticks can cause lots of sickness to your dog and to you.


Thanks. I can and do remove any ticks from Kodi as soon as he gets them. No need to go to a groomer. Here in the north east, those of us with dogs would be at a groomer daily if we had to have them remove ticks!<g>

And, yes, I am well aware of the possibility of tick borne illnesses. Fortunately, in this case, it was an injury, but the first thing we did was rule out the tick diseases found in our area.


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## krandall

wynne said:


> poor sweet Kodi. Hope he gets better soon. Keep us posted.:grouphug:


Thanks, Wynne! He's doing MUCH better. In fact, HE thinks he's fine. He's still restricted from agility to make sure he has plenty of time to heal, but he acts like nothing ever happened.

We are working with a fantastic vet/chiropractor, and have a bunch of stretching and strengthening exercises to do with him too. In the beginning, you could feel him really guarding that hip when you asked him to stretch it. Now he really PUSHES his leg out into your hands for a good stretch on both sides. You can tell it feels good.


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## morriscsps

Do you think you the vet/chiropractor could give me some exercises to strengthen Jack's wonky front leg? I worry because he only puts about 20% of his weight on that leg. If Jack ever hurts his 'good' leg, he is doomed. Faceplant city.


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## krandall

morriscsps said:


> Do you think you the vet/chiropractor could give me some exercises to strengthen Jack's wonky front leg? I worry because he only puts about 20% of his weight on that leg. If Jack ever hurts his 'good' leg, he is doomed. Faceplant city.


I'm sure she could! I can't tell you how impressed I am with her.

In the mean time, here is the list of over-all strengthening exercises she suggested, not just for Kodi's injury, but for any dog doing agility. (And I know you're doing agility with Jack now too!)

---------------------------------------------

General hindend strengthening exercises

-Sit to Stands: Start with 5 repetitions (reps) twice daily and build to 20-25 in the next 4 weeks. Do them in rapid succession.-Downs to Stands: Start with 5 repetitions (reps) twice daily and build to 20-25 in the next 4 weeks. Do them in rapid succession.

-Leg lifts for gluteals: Can apply peanut butter on the inner thigh with standing or laying down to encourage lifting the leg away from the body.

-Walking in deep sand/snow daily for 3-5 minutes can also help build hindend strength.

-Weight shifting:
Start on the flat/ floor and gently move hind end side to side with your hands on each hip. Your dog should be shifting weight from one leg to the other. If you look on the side of the hind legs you will see the muscles contracting as you do this. You can also shift his weight front to back. These exercises help with the "core" (mostly abdominal, back and some leg) static/stabilizer muscles.
Start with 10 seconds at a time and can build up to 1 minute doing 3 reps twice a day.
To make this exercise more difficult and engage the hindend muscles, place a pillow, cushion, or balance board under the front feet then do weight shifting. You can also place front feet on a stair(s) or furniture to shift her weight to the rear. The higher the front feet are placed the more weight shifting to the rear legs.

-Dancing: Hold the front feet and walking a few steps backwards and forwards, but be careful of the dog's and your back. This can be the most challenging for some. So start slow and build up. Careful of your back with a small dog!

-Balance exercises
Three-legged standing: Start with holding right hind leg up, so balancing on left hind leg for 10 seconds up to 30 seconds for 3 reps. Can switch legs to build both legs.
Two-legged standing: Once comfortable with thee-legged standing you can then lift diagonal opposite limbs such as hold up the right hind leg and also the left front leg, so then standing on 2 legs. I find this easiest to do kneeling down next to the dog with my arm over the back to hold the hind leg at the knee and the other hand holding the front leg at the elbow, then extend slowly until balanced. Although, larger dogs you need to stand and may need help from another person! I repeat with the opposite pairs of legs. Again start with 5 seconds up to 30 seconds for 3 reps.

-Walking sideways: use a treat and guide your dog with gentle pressure just in front of the hips.

-Hill walking
Unlike walking up stairs, walking a steep hill encourages the dog to use all limbs equally. An incline of 30-45degrees (pretty steep) with good footing of at least 50 feet (longer better!) is the goal. WALK up slowly 1-3 times and zig-zag down 2-3 times per week, but can do daily. It needs to be a slow walk and usually both the dog and you are tired after doing it.

-Walking across hills -go both directions -the uphill increases flexion and the downhill will help with weight bearing.-Weaving around objects (very important for knees): start spaced ~3/4 to 1 body length apart using 4-6 objects with 6-8 reps once to twice a day either walking or slow trotting.

-Weaving along a curb will combine steeping up with and weight shifting.

-Stepping over rails/cavalettis: Usually start with the rail on ground and can increase height, but go no higher than the hock (ankle). Space ~1-1½ feet apart for limb flexion and coordination or farther (~1/2 to 3/4 body length) for lengthened stride and hip extension. Begin with rails parallel and as your dog improves, angle and tilt the rails for added difficulty. Begin with a slow pace (this is not for agility speed) with 4-6 rails at 6-8 reps once to twice a day.

TheraBall (FitPaws peanut ball) exercises (Get on the Ball with Debbie Gross Saunders www.wizofpaws.net The TheraBall is very helpful for strengthening many muscles at one time. Also many of the above exercises are done on the ball, so it helps to first train and get familiar with them on the ground before moving up.


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## morriscsps

wow. That is a lot of physical therapy. How is Kodi (and you) doing with it? 

Could you PM the vet's name and number? Thanks.


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## Missy

Karen, thank you for sharing those. She had told me about hills andwalking backwards for Cash a while ago...his hind legs are weaker than his front. But we never saw her for rahab. So this is great. Please explain the peanut butter stretch a bit more. 

And how do you ask Kodi to stretch his leg?


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## CarolWCamelo

krandall said:


> Thanks, Wynne! He's doing MUCH better. In fact, HE thinks he's fine. He's still restricted from agility to make sure he has plenty of time to heal, but he acts like nothing ever happened.
> 
> We are working with a fantastic vet/chiropractor, and have a bunch of stretching and strengthening exercises to do with him too. In the beginning, you could feel him really guarding that hip when you asked him to stretch it. Now he really PUSHES his leg out into your hands for a good stretch on both sides. You can tell it feels good.


Oh, Karen; you are taking SUCH good care of Kodi! Why am I not surprised? hahaha!

I think it's great that Kodi has caught on that the stretches make him feel good! I just love the relationship you and Kodi have!

Speaking of big Havs, Camellia weighs about 19.2 pounds, and she's NOT fat. It's a perfect weight for her. (8.7 Kg; I'm in Canada!)

Sun, 1 Apr 2012 20:06:42 (PDT)


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## krandall

morriscsps said:


> wow. That is a lot of physical therapy. How is Kodi (and you) doing with it?
> 
> Could you PM the vet's name and number? Thanks.


Well, we got her e-mail with the list of exercises on Friday afternoon, and left for a show on Sat. Then today is his "rest day" after the show. So we haven't really done anything but the stretching she showed us the first day, and the 20 minutes of walking before any work that she suggested.

You are right that there are a lot of exercises on the list she sent me! It's a bit overwhelming, but I am guessing that you don't need to do everything every day. Also, there are some that will need to be modified for me. (I can't get down on my knees, or I can't get up!ound I did just receive his exercise ball, so I have to get DH to fill it up for me (when I can catch him home... he's a CPA at the end of busy season!!!) and then I
m going to have Fran give me a lesson on how to use it.

When I see Dr. Rogers with Kodi again on Friday, I'll ask her to help me come up with a realistic exercise plan for him, incorporating all this stuff. I'll let you know what I learn.


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## HavaneseSoon

That Vet is a keeper for sure! I am so glad Kodi is on the mend, lots of exercise for you and Kodi to stay in shape.


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## krandall

Missy said:


> Karen, thank you for sharing those. She had told me about hills andwalking backwards for Cash a while ago...his hind legs are weaker than his front. But we never saw her for rahab. So this is great. Please explain the peanut butter stretch a bit more.
> 
> And how do you ask Kodi to stretch his leg?


As far as the peanut butter stretch is concerned, I haven't got a CLUE what she means, and the idea of putting PB on my longhaired white dog is less than appealing.:biggrin1: I'll have to get further explanation on Fri.!

How to explain the stretches... If you were a horse person, it would be so easy, because we ALWAYS do these stretches with our sport horses before riding, and they are exactly the same.

To stretch the front legs, you put one hand on the dog's chest, to keep him from moving forward, and the other hand under the front leg, just by the elbow, and encourage the dog to lift it. Then you take the leg, again, from the top, and ask the dog to stretch it back toward his hind leg.

For the hind leg, you lift up the stifle (knee, patella, whatever you want to call it) and ask the dog to stretch out and back. Then, guiding from the hock, (the next joint down in the leg) you ask them to stretch forward and down. I have to ask her to help me with this stretch again when we go on Friday. Horses don't have nearly as much flexibility in their spine, so when you stretch a back leg forward, the stretch mostly stays in the hind leg assembly. I've found that when I ask Kodi for that particular stretch, he bends his spine to much. This means that he's NOT stretching the leg much, and I'm concerned about torquing that long, Hav back.

The final stretch is to have the dog sit, and without moving their body, have them follow a treat around with their head, first one way and then the other, to stretch their neck and shoulder muscles.

You want to encourage the dog to stretch themselves, you DON'T pull on the leg at all, just go to the point that you feel light muscle resistance, then hold for a few seconds. It may take a few times encouraging them with treats, but they will probably catch on to the fact that it feels good pretty quickly, and offer to stretch into your hand.


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## Jplatthy

iHerb coupon code - QUK405 - created just for you! Share it with others, and when they enter it in the shopping cart (before checkout), they will receive an instant $10 discount on their first iHerb order of $40 and up-or a $5 discount on their first iHerb order less than $40.

I just ordered the tick guard that was mentioned on page 11 lol...http://www.iherb.com/StartShopping and it gave me this coupon code at check out....in case anyone is interested


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## Luciledodd

Rosie is on Comfortis for fleas. But in the last month I have pulled off two ticks--dead ones. One was a regular dog tick and the one yesterday was what we call seed ticks, tiny little things. It is like they bite her and latched on and died. Do you reckon that the Comfortis is killing ticks also? Gosh I hope so.


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## krandall

I don't think it is known to kill ticks, Lucile. That's my understanding, anyway.


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## Luciledodd

Its not, but the ticks were dead and she had no other chemicals on her.


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## krandall

Great, if it works!!!


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