# help teaching the difference between sit and lay down



## RoutineAvocado (Feb 6, 2013)

Zelda is 14 weeks old and we're starting to teach her to sit and lay down. We have different hand gestures for each (not using words yet) but it's very hard to lure her into the correct position, even in puppy class with her trainer doing it. She also much prefers laying down and, if she offers any position, laying down is always her default, even when lured to a sit. And she usually lays down front-end first so we can't even click when she's half-way down to reward the sit effort. Then she just lays there confused why she isn't being rewarded. Her trainer says to just keep trying patiently and reward any time she gets it right. She does occassionally get it right, usually when she's backed up against something and it would be too awkward to lay down. As long as she stays sitting in that position, I keep showing her the cue, clicking, and treating.

Anyway, I'm curious if anybody else had a hard time getting their pup to understand that sit and lay down are two different commands? Any tips on luring a squirmy excited Hav into a successful sit position? My thought right now is to only focus on "sit" and wait till she understands it before working on "lay down."


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## Ruth4Havs (May 13, 2013)

It was frustrating when Chester would get distracted and not focus on training. It is better to start when she is in a calm but not sleepy mood and gently push her rear down while holding the treat above her head and saying "Sit." Practice every day, and then when he has it consistently, move on to the next trick. "lay down" is trickier but if trained right, is no sweat. Keep the treat in the fist of your hand and slowly move the treat in front her chest and move outward, while saying, "lay down", until she is in that position. Praise and give the treat. Good luck!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

RoutineAvocado said:


> Zelda is 14 weeks old and we're starting to teach her to sit and lay down. We have different hand gestures for each (not using words yet) but it's very hard to lure her into the correct position, even in puppy class with her trainer doing it. She also much prefers laying down and, if she offers any position, laying down is always her default, even when lured to a sit. And she usually lays down front-end first so we can't even click when she's half-way down to reward the sit effort. Then she just lays there confused why she isn't being rewarded. Her trainer says to just keep trying patiently and reward any time she gets it right. She does occassionally get it right, usually when she's backed up against something and it would be too awkward to lay down. As long as she stays sitting in that position, I keep showing her the cue, clicking, and treating.
> 
> Anyway, I'm curious if anybody else had a hard time getting their pup to understand that sit and lay down are two different commands? Any tips on luring a squirmy excited Hav into a successful sit position? My thought right now is to only focus on "sit" and wait till she understands it before working on "lay down."


Yes, I would focus on the one she ISN'T getting for a while. Also, don't bother with a hand signal or other cue yet. If you can't even LURE her into position, she clearly is getting no meaning from a cue. If it works better with a wall behind her, practice against walls hundreds of times. When you are getting it reliably against a wall, move to another location.

She is very young, and some things, for some reason, are just easier for one dog than another. For Kodi, he caught onto "sit" in no time. It was impossible to lure him into a down, so we had to teach that to him by "capturing" the behavior with a clicker, when he did it on his own. Then it took NINE MONTHS for him to understand to "stand" on cue. (GOOD dogs SIT at heel, don't they? ) She'll get it, just don't lose patience!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ruth4Havs said:


> It was frustrating when Chester would get distracted and not focus on training. It is better to start when she is in a calm but not sleepy mood and gently push her rear down while holding the treat above her head and saying "Sit." Practice every day, and then when he has it consistently, move on to the next trick. "lay down" is trickier but if trained right, is no sweat. Keep the treat in the fist of your hand and slowly move the treat in front her chest and move outward, while saying, "lay down", until she is in that position. Praise and give the treat. Good luck!


Actually, pushing down on a puppy is not a great way to teach anything. This is force training. (mild force, for sure, but still force) it is dead easy to lure most puppies into a sit just by luring them with a cookie, moved back over their head. I'm sure you can find a YouTube video of this... I don't have time to look right now!

For "down" they way you are teaching it is fine if you are SURE you will never want to do anything competitive with him. But for competitive obedience, it is really important that the dog NOT sit first, but go straight from the stand into a down.


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## RoutineAvocado (Feb 6, 2013)

krandall said:


> Yes, I would focus on the one she ISN'T getting for a while. Also, don't bother with a hand signal or other cue yet. If you can't even LURE her into position, she clearly is getting no meaning from a cue. If it works better with a wall behind her, practice against walls hundreds of times. When you are getting it reliably against a wall, move to another location.
> 
> She is very young, and some things, for some reason, are just easier for one dog than another. For Kodi, he caught onto "sit" in no time. It was impossible to lure him into a down, so we had to teach that to him by "capturing" the behavior with a clicker, when he did it on his own. Then it took NINE MONTHS for him to understand to "stand" on cue. (GOOD dogs SIT at heel, don't they? ) She'll get it, just don't lose patience!


I should clarify that the cue is a closed fist, so we keep our fist closed as we lure. But your comment makes me think that's not even necessary right now. She knows there is a treat inside the fist but maybe it would be easier to just hold it normally. Thanks for the tips and encouragement! Good point about just repeating the exercise where it's easiest for her before moving on.


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## Zarika (Dec 16, 2012)

Karen, do you have any tips for Hobbes? He has had his sit and down for a long time, or so I thought. However, even though we started with hand gestures and added words, I realized just a few days ago that while he knows sit verbally or by the hand gesture, he really only knows the hand gesture for down. I have been saying down and using the gesture simultaneously for many months now. I can use the gesture and no words (or both) and he does as asked. However, if I just say "down" and don't point to the floor (our down signal) he just stares at me. I learned this when I asked for a down and my hands were full. At the time, I just thought he wasn't listening (which would be uncommon for him for that command but I thought hey, we all have our days and there was a lot of distraction). But later I tried it when the treats had been flowing and we were focused on work. I asked for a down verbally and he just looked at me, clearly waiting for instructions but not knowing what I wanted. I added the hand signal and he immediately plopped down. Is there anything special I should do about this or just keep putting them together. I feel like I should do something else because the word has been added to the signal for months. I guess I just usually ask for a sit when I'm asking him to behave while I juggle the groceries, ect so I never realized he hadn't processed the verbal down command.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Zarika said:


> Karen, do you have any tips for Hobbes? He has had his sit and down for a long time, or so I thought. However, even though we started with hand gestures and added words, I realized just a few days ago that while he knows sit verbally or by the hand gesture, he really only knows the hand gesture for down. I have been saying down and using the gesture simultaneously for many months now. I can use the gesture and no words (or both) and he does as asked. However, if I just say "down" and don't point to the floor (our down signal) he just stares at me. I learned this when I asked for a down and my hands were full. At the time, I just thought he wasn't listening (which would be uncommon for him for that command but I thought hey, we all have our days and there was a lot of distraction). But later I tried it when the treats had been flowing and we were focused on work. I asked for a down verbally and he just looked at me, clearly waiting for instructions but not knowing what I wanted. I added the hand signal and he immediately plopped down. Is there anything special I should do about this or just keep putting them together. I feel like I should do something else because the word has been added to the signal for months. I guess I just usually ask for a sit when I'm asking him to behave while I juggle the groceries, ect so I never realized he hadn't processed the verbal down command.


It's not unusual for a dog to respond better to hand signals than to verbal commands. They DO read body language better than they understand the spoken word. (MUCH better!!!). It is also always a danger when you use a verbal and hand signal simultaneously, that they will become "welded" together, and the dog may have trouble understanding just one of them. I would go to using the verbal command FOLLOWED fairly quickly by your hand signal. Eventually, you should see him start to anticipate, and begin to down BEFORE you do the hand signal. Be ready to click and treat this moment IMMEDIATELY. It may take time, but he'll eventually learn the voice command too!


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## dwurms (Apr 17, 2013)

Samoa is five months old and has this same issue. She would much rather lay when we say sit, although interestingly enough at puppy class she seems to get the difference better there. Hmmmmm?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Thebean28 (Jan 4, 2013)

Our trainer has been having us use gentle leash pressure to get Maggie to do commands then we praise her with the command after she's in the position. For example, for sit I gentle pull up on her leash so her collar gently pulls "up". She sits right down and then I say "yes" good sit Maggie and give her a treat at the level she is sitting so she stays in the sit. For lay down they have me apply downward pressure on the leash and then as soon as she lays down release the leash and put treats between her paws and say "yes" good down Maggie. She knows "place" and "free" and "come" also so far. I need to practice with her more, but this is working for us. These are my first professional classes, so I really don't have any other experience to compare it too.

Our trainer did suggest that we wait at least 10 seconds between "sit" and "down" or they just end up laying down. They'll start to associate it with one movement from sit to down.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

That's the old way of doing it. Call and talk to Pam about it. They learn faster if you wait for the correct behavior, and mark it. Once they start offering behaviors, you can teach them to do almost anything quickly.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I agree with Tom. either "capturing" behavior (what Tom was talking about) or luring behavior is a better way than using even gentle force. The problem with force, even if it's gentle, is that you are MAKING the dog do it... no buy-in. You aren't getting them to participate willingly in the "work". (which should feel like "play" to them!) Then what happens when you want them to sit or down and they don't have a leash on? With the other methods, they can be taught (quickly) without ever touching them. Puppies taught this way can easily be solid on sit and down within a week after leaving their breeder at 8-12 weeks.

It also concerns me a bit about the trainer. If she is encouraging you to use (gentle) force for training the most simple of exercises, what's going to happen when you are training loose leash walking and heeling? Honestly, I'd be looking for a new trainer.


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## sprorchid (Mar 30, 2010)

Tom King said:


> That's the old way of doing it. Call and talk to Pam about it. They learn faster if you wait for the correct behavior, and mark it. Once they start offering behaviors, you can teach them to do almost anything quickly.


My understanding is there are only two methods of teaching dogs to do tricks. shaping or capture.

you've been doing shaping, to no or little success.

I'd go with Tom, and just give your pup a treat when she sits naturally, thru out the day. lots of verbal praise, always 1:1 reward, and only after the behavior is reliable do you put a hand signal on it, then it's after the hand signal is reliable then you go to words, if you want to.

I would also, only teach one trick at a time. If she's better at lay down, I'd take that and make sure she has that down pat. as a pup, she needs to learn the progression, the steps of mastering a trick it'll help her learn other new tricks.

When you do teach sit, do not reward her in anyway for laying down or a 1/2 sit. remember command, correction, command. when you get to the hand signal stage, the correction can be anything, turn your face or back to the pup, saying 'no', my guy, doesn't like wind in his face, so I blow on him for 1 second for one of my corrections...you should video tape yourself trying to teach sit, so you can see how you can improve.

Also it might be the surface your pup is on, if it's slippery, they all prefer to lay down, so give her a rug or sweatshirt to sit on.

good luck.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Be careful of "corrections" with soft dogs like Havanese... They can be easily shut down by them. IMO, particularly during the learning phase, it is better to just ignore the "incorrect" tries, reset, and try again, making sure to generously reward correct responses. 

Dogs rarely do the "wrong thing on purpose, and that is particulary true of puppies. When they make mistakes, it's caused by one of several things. 

*They do not yet know what we want well enough (lack of experience)
*We have not been clear enough with our cue
*Something in the environment is keeping them from being able to perform
*The dogs level of arrousal is getting in the way of performance
*The dog isn't having fun (often because the handler has unintentionally made the experience aversive)

It's up to us to figure out which of these things is standing in the way of performance and fix it. Sometimes, if we step back and think about it, the reasons are clear. Other times, it can take some sleuth work and some trial and error to figure out what is going wrong.


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## sprorchid (Mar 30, 2010)

To correct my Ollie when refining tricks, I usually just turn my head away, for 3 seconds.

Ollie has always 'scrolled' meaning he'll do 3-4 different tricks all together, in hopes of scoring the treat. I'm still teasing it out, and for the most part, it's one signal one trick, but if he's working with another person, someone who wants to have the thrill of getting a trick out of Ollie, he'll scroll with them.

Havs are very very eager to please, so your reaction is key and very important. when your pup gets it right, have a party. your silence, as a correction often is correction enough.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

sprorchid said:


> Havs are very very eager to please, so your reaction is key and very important. when your pup gets it right, have a party. your silence, as a correction often is correction enough.


Agreed! I was concerned that others might read about you (i'm sure, only occasionally) blowing at Ollie, and parse that into other, and too much, positive punishment. Withholding attention (such as turning your face away) or withholding a reward are usually all that is necessary, even with dogs that are a lot tougher than Havs. It's just that some dogs TOLERATE positive punishment much better than soft dogs like Havs do.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Oh, and as far as the chaining is concerned, you have a little different problem here than the average owner, since it's part of Ollie's "job" to perform for others. You also see this in a lot of dogs who have been taught a series of "parlor tricks" that are trotted out periodically to show off for visitors. This seems to be the series I see most often (it's funny how human minds seem to think in progressions like this ): Sit, speak, shake, other paw, down roll over. Always in the same order. No wonder the dogs start to do the whole sequence at once! I am sure you're not doing that with Ollie, but I bet the other people you let work him do!

But a lot of that can be prevented by only working on one behavior at a time. It can be 5 (or 10 or 20) different behaviors, spread in 30 second training sessions through out the day. But if, in the beginning, when they only know a few, you separate the behaviors this way, you won't get any chaining. (though you may still get certain older behaviors offered when they are learning something new... Kodi's "default behavior" is to down, if he can't figure out what I want ) 

As the dog learns more and more behaviors, it gets easier and easier to avoid chaining, because you can keep mixing up the order of behaviors you ask for. Then you can work on several in one session, as long as you keep mixing it up.


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## sprorchid (Mar 30, 2010)

Yeah Karen,

like I said before, Ollie is smarter than some of the humans he works with (adult) and most ppl haven't had the experience of working with a dog trained like Ollie. Honestly, the order of trick is random when we are in school, as it just depends on what the kids ask him to do, or what we're working on in the classroom.

It's the adults, who want to trigger a command, lately play dead, who are lay dog ppl, know nothing about training, so they make typical novice mistakes like repeating the commands 2-3, even 4 times. 

Ollie has a very clear order, 1) show me you have a treat I want (sniff, or lick), 2) give me the hand signal, 3) Ollie does the trick, 4) pay me.

If you vary from it, Ollie will work the human, depending on where they messed up.

I only blow on Ollie's face when he's being a butthead (practice), aka stubborn. I personally think he's starting to like it, lol. bogger.

anyway - OP, let us know how it goes.


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## RoutineAvocado (Feb 6, 2013)

Zelda figured it out, but I think in the end it was through more of a capture method than a lure. It just clicked for her one day and I realized that she does best if she isn't lured from a sit into a down (which is what our trainer wanted her to do). Those are totally separate commands for her and she doesn't want to combine them. If she sees a fist, she'll sit. Now, if she sees a flat hand, she lays down. But if she's already sitting and been rewarded for that, she doesn't want to convert it to a down. She'll just sit there and stare at me like I'm an idiot.  So no puppy pushups going back and forth between the positions. Fine with me!


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## sprorchid (Mar 30, 2010)

She's a smart pup!! For me, I put a hand signal on almost every behavior Ollie did as a pup. jump, walking on his hind legs, just to name a few. now he does none of them for free, lol.

teach her 'bow' next. it's when her butt is in the air and front paws are down. 

the easiet way is to put her in a down, and as her slides to down, you lightly touch your finger, where her hind legs meet her body, thus keeping her butt in the air. give her a treat when she's in 'downward dog' (that's what the bow looks like). I'm sure now, that she knows a couple of treats, she'll catch on quick.

There's a 'trick command' thread in the general section if you want to get some ideas on tricks to teach her beyond the basics.

nice job!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

RoutineAvocado said:


> Zelda figured it out, but I think in the end it was through more of a capture method than a lure. It just clicked for her one day and I realized that she does best if she isn't lured from a sit into a down (which is what our trainer wanted her to do). Those are totally separate commands for her and she doesn't want to combine them. If she sees a fist, she'll sit. Now, if she sees a flat hand, she lays down. But if she's already sitting and been rewarded for that, she doesn't want to convert it to a down. She'll just sit there and stare at me like I'm an idiot.  So no puppy pushups going back and forth between the positions. Fine with me!


Well, if you think there is ANY chance that you might enjoy going beyond just "pet" obedience, and doing something competitive, you would NEVER want the dog to sit and then down, when cued to down down. Major, MAJOR points off for doing that in competition. So you chose a much better solution without even knowing it! :thumb:

Now that she DOES know sit and down, though, teach her "stand" also. Then DO work on getting her to switch between ALL positions on cue.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

I'm amazed, reading through these posts, at how many people still advocate even the gentlest coercion. I'm SO with Karen on NOT doing so. I thought most people now understood really well about operant conditioning, positive reinforcement, clicker training, shaping etc. For people (never mind dogs!) who are harder to lure away from older-fashioned ways of training there is a REALLY good book (I've just checked, it's available on Amazon.com in the States) called "The Thinking Dog" by Gail Tamases Fisher; she was an old-school trainer until she discovered clicker training, and having gone through a skeptical phase became what is known as a 'crossover' trainer. It explains shaping very clearly. Cuba learned in minutes at 12 weeks what shaping means, and in her first week or two, with tiny short sessions (two or three minutes a day at most) could do sit, down and 'in your bed' from a distance, walk on a loose leash, a more-or-less reliable recall and so on; all shaped. There are loads of other books out there, I only mention that one because as a skeptic herself, the author is good at recognising the problems in convincing people who felt as had she.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> I'm amazed, reading through these posts, at how many people still advocate even the gentlest coercion. I'm SO with Karen on NOT doing so. I thought most people now understood really well about operant conditioning, positive reinforcement, clicker training, shaping etc. For people (never mind dogs!) who are harder to lure away from older-fashioned ways of training there is a REALLY good book (I've just checked, it's available on Amazon.com in the States) called "The Thinking Dog" by Gail Tamases Fisher; she was an old-school trainer until she discovered clicker training, and having gone through a skeptical phase became what is known as a 'crossover' trainer. It explains shaping very clearly. Cuba learned in minutes at 12 weeks what shaping means, and in her first week or two, with tiny short sessions (two or three minutes a day at most) could do sit, down and 'in your bed' from a distance, walk on a loose leash, a more-or-less reliable recall and so on; all shaped. There are loads of other books out there, I only mention that one because as a skeptic herself, the author is good at recognising the problems in convincing people who felt as had she.


I often trial at Gail Fisher's "All Dog's Gym" in New Hampshire. I've never met her in person, but know her by reputation. You can also tell, just from her facility, that she really "gets" dogs.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

I'm so glad you know about Gail Fisher, Karen, and great to hear that her facility 'gets' dogs. I am incredibly lucky, living in Oxford, to be near enough to get to Kay Laurence's classes; her books are also available on Amazon.com and I can't recommend them highly enough - she is very detailed, very scientific, and a wonderful source of inspiration and learning. I did her foundation clicker-trainers' course with Pamba, my first Coton, and was completely transformed by it in so many ways. The sheer power of shaping to teach a dog in ways that the dog loves is an education in itself - to watch a dog think, work out for itself, have it's 'eureka' moments, and then put it all together with joy and enthusiasm is, to me, what dog ownership is all about. Pamba used to bring me the clicker; she so badly wanted to learn more and so clearly loved every minute of it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> I'm so glad you know about Gail Fisher, Karen, and great to hear that her facility 'gets' dogs. I am incredibly lucky, living in Oxford, to be near enough to get to Kay Laurence's classes; her books are also available on Amazon.com and I can't recommend them highly enough - she is very detailed, very scientific, and a wonderful source of inspiration and learning. I did her foundation clicker-trainers' course with Pamba, my first Coton, and was completely transformed by it in so many ways. The sheer power of shaping to teach a dog in ways that the dog loves is an education in itself - to watch a dog think, work out for itself, have it's 'eureka' moments, and then put it all together with joy and enthusiasm is, to me, what dog ownership is all about. Pamba used to bring me the clicker; she so badly wanted to learn more and so clearly loved every minute of it.


I don't always use a clicker... There are some things (like agility) that it doesn't work well for. But I use R+ training methods as much as possible, and when a correction is absolutely necessary, and I'm certain my dog understands what he is supposed to do, I use P-. It's amazing what a big impact simply withholding praise or attention can make on an R+ trained dog! And I also use a "marker word" for times when I don't happen to have the clicker and cookies in my pocket. (which is rare, but does happen! )


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## RoutineAvocado (Feb 6, 2013)

Lalla said:


> I'm amazed, reading through these posts, at how many people still advocate even the gentlest coercion. I'm SO with Karen on NOT doing so. I thought most people now understood really well about operant conditioning, positive reinforcement, clicker training, shaping etc. For people (never mind dogs!) who are harder to lure away from older-fashioned ways of training there is a REALLY good book (I've just checked, it's available on Amazon.com in the States) called "The Thinking Dog" by Gail Tamases Fisher; she was an old-school trainer until she discovered clicker training, and having gone through a skeptical phase became what is known as a 'crossover' trainer. It explains shaping very clearly. Cuba learned in minutes at 12 weeks what shaping means, and in her first week or two, with tiny short sessions (two or three minutes a day at most) could do sit, down and 'in your bed' from a distance, walk on a loose leash, a more-or-less reliable recall and so on; all shaped. There are loads of other books out there, I only mention that one because as a skeptic herself, the author is good at recognising the problems in convincing people who felt as had she.


Cuba can walk on a loose leash at 12 weeks?! Holy Smokes. Zelda is five months old, gets 2 or 3walks a day, but is nowhere near real loose leash walking. She is so insanely excited to smell everything and explore and plop down to smell stuff on the ground. The outdoors are just way too thrilling to walk in a straight line or at a consistent speed. Treats have zero value to her outside.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

I don't think she'd be very reliable in a park or out in the countryside, I'm talking pavements here (sidewalks, I mean, I'm English!!). She is now 5 months old but actually she's been really, really good at loose leash walking from the first week I got her at 12 weeks. It's made up for the awfulness of the house-training! Honestly all I had to do was not let her pull me EVER; I do strongly believe that WE teach our dogs to pull by letting them do so. She got so bored with my stopping every time the leash went taut, so intrigued by me clicking every time it went slack and she looked up at me that it really was only a matter of one walk to sort it out. Now she trots along at heel, watching me some of the time, eyes ahead some of the time, being clicked and being treated at random times but they are getting fewer and farther between now; we stop at kerbsides and she sits and gets a treat - there are still lots of clicks and treats involved, but they keep her attention and she really enjoys it, it seems. Today we passed a family and the boy was bouncing a football in front of him as he walked along towards us and she watched but didn't break stride, it was really good. I'm quite prepared for it all to fall apart when she gets to teenage mode, but we'll get it back; she's allowed some fun, too, and I know she can re-learn it now. She does seem to find the learning fun. We've got up to twenty minute walks without dragging or pulling or stopping except when asked to do so. My 6 year old Coton isn't nearly as good, I'm sorry to say!! I haven't yet taken them out together, I think that really would be tempting fate for now - they have endless playing off lead in the garden together, but not out on a walk yet. Maybe, when we reach that point, she can teach him how to do it properly!!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

I wish I was better at posting photos, but I think I might have managed to attach one...we'll see! If I have, it's of Tycho, my Coton, and Cuba clicker training, taken on July 1st, so Cuba was 14 weeks old then.


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