# Has anyone seen a neurological condition like what our Josie has?



## eric.muller (Nov 14, 2021)

Josie's a 9-month old pup and a major sweetheart. Regrettably, she also developed a perplexing neurological condition not long after she came to us (at about 9 weeks) from the breeder. The key features: 

recurring episodes, each lasting between 4 and 8 hours.
each episode starts with lethargy, a bit of urinary incontinence, and a "bobblehead" tremor that lasts through the entire multi-hour episode. You can see the tremor here.
That's accompanied by wobbliness and weakness in her hind legs, which you can see in the first 30 seconds here.
Her neck and head seem itchy and bothersome to her.
Suddenly she'll go from lethargic to manic, engaging in super-intense "zooming" behavior that also can include distressed sounds and some spinning.
If we take her outside in these short manic phases, she's on overdrive. See here.
The manic bursts are short -- usually no more than 10 to 15 minutes. She appears to exhaust herself and then falls into a long, deep sleep from which it's hard (but not impossible) to rouse her.
We've had an array of tests, including MRI and spinal fluid, and the neurologist says everything comes back normal. Regrettably he's not offering us much in the way of possible diagnoses, courses of treatment, etc.

We adore our little girl, but have major challenges in our lives with sick humans, and we feel desperate to know what this is and whether it's something we'll be able to handle.

Please -- if you've ever seen or heard of anything like this in a havanese, do let me know. 

Thank you!
🙏🙏🙏


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Has she been given any combination flea and tick medications? Years ago our Keeper developed neurological problems from being given Revolution. He had every symptom on the list of possible side effects except for seizures and death. We had to cram food down his mouth for at least a year because he couldn't stand still long enough to eat. He did get over it, but it was well over a year.

So sorry, and I hope it doesn't last long.


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## Johanna (11 mo ago)

I was just going to ask the same as Tom. If she's been given any flea/tick meds (topical or chews) I would discontinue. I would also discontiue any heartworm preventative if you're giving her that. Some dogs have a problem with these meds and the symptoms are generally neurological when bad. Look for any toxins in the yard or house that she could be getting into (inclucing plants and trees, seed pods, mushrooms etc)...you've probably already done that. If you treat the yard or house with toxins, keep her away from that. Neuroligical issues are so hard. It's good that you have videos of the problem and have been documenting everything. It sounds like you're doing all you can since you've already seen a neuroligist and had so many expensive tests. My one recommendation that I would probably try at this point would be to reach out to a REPUTABLE holistic veterinarian to ask if they might have any insight or experience with her symptoms. I've never used a holistic vet myself but have a couple of friends that have gotten help for difficult diagnoses when the specialists and mainstream vets had no answers. One of my friends lives in the Boston area but uses a holistic vet in Florida and she does everything by phone and internet. I also wouldn't give any vaccines at all for now. I'm sorry your family and your little furry girl are going through this. I can relate to having major health challenges with humans in the family as well. I'm sure it's exhausting.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Wow, I didn’t have time to watch your last two videos until this evening. While the first two show clear neurological signs, and the scratching video might or might not be neurologic, (lots of dogs DO scratch their necks, especially if wearing a collar) the video of her in the bedroom is really disturbing. She seems SO unhappy, and completely unable to slow down or stop herself. She even tries to go into her crate to “escape”, but then runs right back out. I wonder if you’ve tried shutting her in her crate at those times. Would it help her settle, or will she just hurt herself inside the crate? (Which, of course would not be good!)

I am not positive that the last video, again, is outside the realm of normal dog behavior… again, like the scratching video, at least in what you’ve shown, tugging on a leash, and making that “throaty growl” noise is something many dogs will do in play. So it’s hard to know what’s going on… whether it is neurologic, or her revving up at your repeated insistence that she “go potty”. (Often it works better to give a single cue, and then just stand still and let them relax and find their spot)

Have you shown these videos to the neurologist? If so, I might try to get a second opinion, perhaps from one at a university vet hospital. and I would, FOR SURE think through what Tom King and others have said about flea and tick and heartworm meds. Some of these are known to have neurotoxic side effects on a certain (and not small) percentage of dogs. In many cases, it is reversible, but not quickly, and not if the animal has repeated exposure to the chemical.


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

eric.muller said:


> Josie's a 9-month old pup and a major sweetheart. Regrettably, she also developed a perplexing neurological condition not long after she came to us (at about 9 weeks) from the breeder. The key features:
> 
> recurring episodes, each lasting between 4 and 8 hours.
> each episode starts with lethargy, a bit of urinary incontinence, and a "bobblehead" tremor that lasts through the entire multi-hour episode. You can see the tremor here.
> ...


I’m afraid I don’t have any help to offer but so sorry to hear that you and your pup are going through that! Hope you can figure out the cause soon….


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

I was going to ask if the tests have been with a regular vet or a neurologist? I'd definitely recommend taking her to a neurologist with the videos.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Our Keeper lived to be 15, and had many good years after he got over the neurological issues. A few months after it started, he could run and play with the other dogs and was enjoying life, but when he put his head down to eat, it just didn't work. I can't remember exactly how long the shaking lasted. This was some years ago.


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## eric.muller (Nov 14, 2021)

Melissa Brill said:


> I was going to ask if the tests have been with a regular vet or a neurologist? I'd definitely recommend taking her to a neurologist with the videos.


They've been with a neurologist.


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## eric.muller (Nov 14, 2021)

krandall said:


> Wow, I didn’t have time to watch your last two videos until this evening. While the first two show clear neurological signs, and the scratching video might or might not be neurologic, (lots of dogs DO scratch their necks, especially if wearing a collar) the video of her in the bedroom is really disturbing. She seems SO unhappy, and completely unable to slow down or stop herself. She even tries to go into her crate to “escape”, but then runs right back out. I wonder if you’ve tried shutting her in her crate at those times. Would it help her settle, or will she just hurt herself inside the crate? (Which, of course would not be good!)
> 
> I am not positive that the last video, again, is outside the realm of normal dog behavior… again, like the scratching video, at least in what you’ve shown, tugging on a leash, and making that “throaty growl” noise is something many dogs will do in play. So it’s hard to know what’s going on… whether it is neurologic, or her revving up at your repeated insistence that she “go potty”. (Often it works better to give a single cue, and then just stand still and let them relax and find their spot)
> 
> Have you shown these videos to the neurologist? If so, I might try to get a second opinion, perhaps from one at a university vet hospital. and I would, FOR SURE think through what Tom King and others have said about flea and tick and heartworm meds. Some of these are known to have neurotoxic side effects on a certain (and not small) percentage of dogs. In many cases, it is reversible, but not quickly, and not if the animal has repeated exposure to the chemical.


Thank you! Yes, we've shown the videos to a neurologist. Thus far he seems to be stumped.


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## eric.muller (Nov 14, 2021)

Tom King said:


> Has she been given any combination flea and tick medications? Years ago our Keeper developed neurological problems from being given Revolution. He had every symptom on the list of possible side effects except for seizures and death. We had to cram food down his mouth for at least a year because he couldn't stand still long enough to eat. He did get over it, but it was well over a year.
> 
> So sorry, and I hope it doesn't last long.


Yes, she was given Heartgard and Bravecto. We don't intend to give her either of those again.
It's pretty confusing, though, because she showed milder versions of these symptoms from very early on, before (so far as I know) she received flea/tic/heartworm meds. She did seem to have a big uptick in symptoms starting with the last administration of the medications (which was also the first time she got a three-month dose of the Bravecto, rather than the puppy-version one-month dose). But since the symptoms seem to have preceded the start of any of these meds, it seems likely that there's an underlying condition and the meds, at most, exacerbate it.


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## eric.muller (Nov 14, 2021)

Johanna said:


> I was just going to ask the same as Tom. If she's been given any flea/tick meds (topical or chews) I would discontinue. I would also discontiue any heartworm preventative if you're giving her that. Some dogs have a problem with these meds and the symptoms are generally neurological when bad. Look for any toxins in the yard or house that she could be getting into (inclucing plants and trees, seed pods, mushrooms etc)...you've probably already done that. If you treat the yard or house with toxins, keep her away from that. Neuroligical issues are so hard. It's good that you have videos of the problem and have been documenting everything. It sounds like you're doing all you can since you've already seen a neuroligist and had so many expensive tests. My one recommendation that I would probably try at this point would be to reach out to a REPUTABLE holistic veterinarian to ask if they might have any insight or experience with her symptoms. I've never used a holistic vet myself but have a couple of friends that have gotten help for difficult diagnoses when the specialists and mainstream vets had no answers. One of my friends lives in the Boston area but uses a holistic vet in Florida and she does everything by phone and internet. I also wouldn't give any vaccines at all for now. I'm sorry your family and your little furry girl are going through this. I can relate to having major health challenges with humans in the family as well. I'm sure it's exhausting.


Just answered Tom -- thank you for your response!
Online, I see so much about the risks of these heartworm/flea/tic medications.
But the neurologist we've seen was quite dismissive of even the _*possibility*_ that these medications are involved.
Have others encountered this attitude in veterinarians?


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I've never met a Vet that believed any vaccination or medication caused side effects, but we've seen and heard of more than a few. Since our issue with Revolution, we never touch anything new advertised at a Vet's office, or any combination medications.

It's also quite possible that she may have had side effects from vaccinations before taking the flea and tick stuff.

Vets don't believe that there's anything to over vaccination either, but many of us know different.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Amen to what Tom said. Medications and vaccines are the last to blame for anything if they are even blamed at all. My Mia had neurological issues from a rabies vaccine. I stopped all vaccines and all flea and heartworm drugs. She was fine after about a year. She will be 14 in two months and healthy. I belong to a group where people never vaccinate their dogs at all due to the things they have personally experienced...and not just with over vaccination.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tom King said:


> Our Keeper lived to be 15, and had many good years after he got over the neurological issues. A few months after it started, he could run and play with the other dogs and was enjoying life, but when he put his head down to eat, it just didn't work. I can't remember exactly how long the shaking lasted. This was some years ago.


I think I remember that if he got very excited, he still had a bit of a head tremor much later too, didn't he?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

eric.muller said:


> Just answered Tom -- thank you for your response!
> Online, I see so much about the risks of these heartworm/flea/tic medications.
> But the neurologist we've seen was quite dismissive of even the _*possibility*_ that these medications are involved.
> Have others encountered this attitude in veterinarians?


For sure! Not my vet, who has very cautious, fortunately. But many others.


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## Geezer (Dec 2, 2018)

eric.muller said:


> Josie's a 9-month old pup and a major sweetheart. Regrettably, she also developed a perplexing neurological condition not long after she came to us (at about 9 weeks) from the breeder. The key features:
> 
> recurring episodes, each lasting between 4 and 8 hours.
> each episode starts with lethargy, a bit of urinary incontinence, and a "bobblehead" tremor that lasts through the entire multi-hour episode. You can see the tremor here.
> ...


Our Tina does a lot of the same things. especially after being bathed. Tina's outburst normally only last less than a minute. We have never had any concern about her behavior. We just thought that she was exercising


Melissa Brill said:


> I was going to ask if the tests have been with a regular vet or a neurologist? I'd definitely recommend taking her to a neurologist with the videos.





eric.muller said:


> Josie's a 9-month old pup and a major sweetheart. Regrettably, she also developed a perplexing neurological condition not long after she came to us (at about 9 weeks) from the breeder. The key features:
> 
> recurring episodes, each lasting between 4 and 8 hours.
> each episode starts with lethargy, a bit of urinary incontinence, and a "bobblehead" tremor that lasts through the entire multi-hour episode. You can see the tremor here.
> ...


Our Tina does most of the same things and we thought nothing of it. After bathing, she runs around like a chicken with it's head cut off, we lovingly call it air drying. I may be an old dummy, but nothing in the videos disturbed me at all, to me she is just being a cute dog. I hope that these comments do not offend anyone.


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## Johanna (11 mo ago)

eric.muller said:


> Just answered Tom -- thank you for your response!
> Online, I see so much about the risks of these heartworm/flea/tic medications.
> But the neurologist we've seen was quite dismissive of even the _*possibility*_ that these medications are involved.
> Have others encountered this attitude in veterinarians?


I have encountered some veterinarians like this but they vary just like human doctors. I worked for a vet that refused to use brand new heartworm or flea/tick meds until they had been out for a while and proven. My sister has a dog that started suffering from cluster seizures about a year ago. They have no idea the cause and it may be a hereditary problem... but their vet advised them to not give him bravecto, nexguard or heartworm medication anymore. He had been taking bravecto and heart guard for years with no problem but the vet still advised them to stop just in case that was the cause or could be a contributing factor.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Johanna said:


> I have encountered some veterinarians like this but they vary just like human doctors. I worked for a vet that refused to use brand new heartworm or flea/tick meds until they had been out for a while and proven. My sister has a dog that started suffering from cluster seizures about a year ago. They have no idea the cause and it may be a hereditary problem... but their vet advised them to not give him bravecto, nexguard or heartworm medication anymore. He had been taking bravecto and heart guard for years with no problem but the vet still advised them to stop just in case that was the cause or could be a contributing factor.


I believe the package information specifically warns that it should not be used in dogs with a history of seizures...


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## HavaHopeful (10 mo ago)

I have heard many scary things about Bravecto. I’d consider taking her to a veterinary teaching hospital (found at most veterinary grad schools) - usually the most up to date services and research. I’m so sorry.


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## Johanna (11 mo ago)

Geezer said:


> Our Tina does a lot of the same things. especially after being bathed. Tina's outburst normally only last less than a minute. We have never had any concern about her behavior. We just thought that she was exercising
> 
> 
> Our Tina does most of the same things and we thought nothing of it. After bathing, she runs around like a chicken with it's head cut off, we lovingly call it air drying. I may be an old dummy, but nothing in the videos disturbed me at all, to me she is just being a cute dog. I hope that these comments do not offend anyone.


I'm thinking you didn't watch all of the videos he linked. My dogs will act a bit manic and get the zoomies after a bath too... and sometimes just because they get a wild hair. But the lethargy, head bobbing, spinning, incontinence and rear leg muscle weakness is definitely neurological and not at all normal. Plus these episodes last for hours and have been ongoing.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

eric.muller said:


> Yes, she was given Heartgard and Bravecto. We don't intend to give her either of those again.
> It's pretty confusing, though, because she showed milder versions of these symptoms from very early on, before (so far as I know) she received flea/tic/heartworm meds. She did seem to have a big uptick in symptoms starting with the last administration of the medications (which was also the first time she got a three-month dose of the Bravecto, rather than the puppy-version one-month dose). But since the symptoms seem to have preceded the start of any of these meds, it seems likely that there's an underlying condition and the meds, at most, exacerbate it.


That's the problem with some of these meds - Bravecto especially - it took them an incredibly long time to admit that it might be linked to neurological conditions, and now it does specifically warn about that - but it does seem that it is linked to dogs that have some sort of underlying condition that then becomes exacerbated by Bravecto (and unfortunately they can't test for whatever it might be before you use it). Some dogs can use Bravecto with no problems (my sister uses it because one of her dog was reacting to the previous meds she was using), but you won't know til after you give it.



krandall said:


> I believe the package information specifically warns that it should not be used in dogs with a history of seizures...


Yes after years of people saying it was the cause of seizures / neurological problems and death and Bravecto denying it, they finally have started giving warnings about it. 



eric.muller said:


> Just answered Tom -- thank you for your response!
> Online, I see so much about the risks of these heartworm/flea/tic medications.
> But the neurologist we've seen was quite dismissive of even the _*possibility*_ that these medications are involved.
> Have others encountered this attitude in veterinarians?


Personally I would go to another neurologist - as someone else mentioned maybe even at a teaching hospital where they're on the cutting edge of things. Your vet should be fine with another opinion if they're stumped.


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## Plhogan (Sep 26, 2018)

There is a holistic veterinarian, Dr Judy Morgan, that has a lot of educational material about the effects of Isoxazoline based products flea and tick medicines (Bravecto, Bravecto Plus, Nexgard, Simparica, Simparica Trio, Credelio, Revolution Plus). She’s on Facebook and has a web site. She’s super informative about the neurological effects of those topicals as well as many veterinarians dismissing the effects. She just had something on Facebook about it yesterday.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

I just watched all the videos and the ones where she is running around manic is a little over the top but also can be normal puppy behavior. Those are called "zoomies" and my Sophie did very similar at times as a puppy but still does them at age 7 just not as intensely as she used to. But she has looked like Josie in the video when she was about that age. Not to say this isn't a sign of something going on with Josie but she could be normal. Does she get much exercise and mental stimulation? At her age she should not be walked for long periods (you should wait until her growth plates close at around 12-18 months for really long walks) but if you don't already, taking her out daily to a park or walk around your block if it's safe dog wise there, may help her settle at home.

I know this wouldn't be a good idea until you know just what is going on with her but have you considered taking her to puppy class to get some of that energy out also? Or puppies or nice dogs you know you could set up play dates with? Even doing some light training with her at home, the mental work can tire her out a little.

Does she do the itching without the harness and collar on? That also looks normal to me. Sophie was very itchy at that age and would sit and scratch and scratch. She has grown out of it a bit but still gets pretty itchy. Even without a collar on. Josie sort of looks to me like she's scratching due to her harness and collar though.

The one on the floor where she is slipping, could that just be the slippery floor? Or is she having tremors etc at that point too? My Sophie does similar on the more slippery hard floors (which is why I have carpeting) she also does it on the seamless background paper I roll out as a backdrop for photo shoots with her. I have gotten a white rug to put down as unless she is standing still her feet slip out from under her too. Does she have hair on the bottom of her paws? If so you may try trimming them from around her pads so she can grip the floor better with her pads and not slip from standing on the hair. You may also consider getting a rug runner across the hard floor so she has a path where she can get traction. I have one in my kitchen that leads from the back door to the carpeted living room that Sophie uses.

The two videos that to me dont' look normal are of course the bobbing head one and also where she is laying and vocalizes although I don't know her, just that one alone wouldn't have worried me a ton. Again unless I missed something before or after you videoed. But something is definitely going on with her.

I imagine the neurologist checked for syringomyelia? I agree with Plhogan about Dr Judy also Dr Jean Dodds is amazing (she is the one who changed the whole vaccination protocol as most dogs don't need more than the puppy vax in their lifetime, and we can titer their blood to see if they are still covered or not as they get older.) I have talked with her about my dogs issues a few times also. So sorry you are going through this especially with such a young one! Hopefully this is connected to the flea and tick treatment and won't happen again. <3


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## Geezer (Dec 2, 2018)

Johanna said:


> I'm thinking you didn't watch all of the videos he linked. My dogs will act a bit manic and get the zoomies after a bath too... and sometimes just because they get a wild hair. But the lethargy, head bobbing, spinning, incontinence and rear leg muscle weakness is definitely neurological and not at all normal. Plus these episodes last for hours and have been ongoing.





Johanna said:


> I'm thinking you didn't watch all of the videos he linked. My dogs will act a bit manic and get the zoomies after a bath too... and sometimes just because they get a wild hair. But the lethargy, head bobbing, spinning, incontinence and rear leg muscle weakness is definitely neurological and not at all normal. Plus these episodes last for hours and have been ongoing.


I did watch all of the video's which is why I said "a lot of the same things". she has never had head bobbing or incontinence but in her wild mode she occasionally does do circles.


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## KiwiMm (10 mo ago)

Is there a college around where you live that has a Vet school in it? When we had problems with another fog years ago we called them and took her to them and they kept her . They were very helpful in a diagnosis. Just a thought.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

eric.muller said:


> Yes, she was given Heartgard and Bravecto. We don't intend to give her either of those again.
> It's pretty confusing, though, because she showed milder versions of these symptoms from very early on, before (so far as I know) she received flea/tic/heartworm meds. She did seem to have a big uptick in symptoms starting with the last administration of the medications (which was also the first time she got a three-month dose of the Bravecto, rather than the puppy-version one-month dose). But since the symptoms seem to have preceded the start of any of these meds, it seems likely that there's an underlying condition and the meds, at most, exacerbate it.


I know you didn't give Seresto but thought I'd share this, just today, how dangerous these toxins can be. It says owners reported seizures, vomiting, dizziness, anorexia, difficulty breathing, nausea...


After a damning USA Today investigation linked a popular flea and tick collar to nearly 1,700 pet deaths, a Congressional subcommittee is calling for the products to be temporarily recalled.
"I think that it's only appropriate in this case that the manufacturer do a voluntary recall," Illinois Rep. Raja Krishnamoorthi, chairman of the House subcommittee on Economic and Consumer Policy, told CBS News. "And I think that it's appropriate, out of an abundance of caution, that we step back, we look at the situation, investigate and proceed from there."
USA Today revealed earlier this month that more than 75,000 incidents involving Seresto collars had been reported to the EPA between 2012 and June 2020. These reports linked the collars to tens of thousands of animal injuries; 900 of the incidents involved people.
According to the EPA, which approved the collars in 2012, the Seresto collars "are made of plastic impregnated with insecticides," which are released into an animal's fur over a period of eight months. The agency does not consider those insecticides, flumethrin and imidacloprid, to be harmful to pets or humans. But a 2012 study by Bayer found that the two have a "synergistic effect" and are more toxic to fleas when paired together.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

All of the "preventatives" stay in the dogs system a really long time. I would stop them as well as heartworm drugs and vaccines and give Josie's system a chance to right itself. Not sure I would be running to a neurologist until I gave her a chance. The sad part is that most dogs would not get more than a handful of ticks or fleas in their entire life time without the preventatives. Mine have had hundreds of ticks on them in 14 years and are doing just fine. I happen to live in a very tick infested area and still refuse to use any preventative, even spot ons, which in my opinion are also dangerous.


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

Johanna said:


> I'm thinking you didn't watch all of the videos he linked. My dogs will act a bit manic and get the zoomies after a bath too... and sometimes just because they get a wild hair. But the lethargy, head bobbing, spinning, incontinence and rear leg muscle weakness is definitely neurological and not at all normal. Plus these episodes last for hours and have been ongoing.


Yes, the post bath zoomies are very common, but it’s the other videos that are especially worrisome,,, and even in the zoomies video she seems unable to control herself to settle… it feels more frantic. Poor little girl 😞 A friend’s dog (not a Hav, but a small fluffy mix) recently started having rear muscle weakness and they couldn’t figure out what it was, but then he had seizures so they did have an MRI. The vet thinks it something called GME which sounds pretty bad. The symptoms list sounds similar… did they rule this out in your girl? I really hope they’re able to figure out what is up with your girl soon!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

LWalks said:


> Yes, the post bath zoomies are very common, but it’s the other videos that are especially worrisome,,, and even in the zoomies video she seems unable to control herself to settle… it feels more frantic. Poor little girl 😞 A friend’s dog (not a Hav, but a small fluffy mix) recently started having rear muscle weakness and they couldn’t figure out what it was, but then he had seizures so they did have an MRI. The vet thinks it something called GME which sounds pretty bad. The symptoms list sounds similar… did they rule this out in your girl? I really hope they’re able to figure out what is up with your girl soon!


I agree. When I started watching the zoom one, my first thought was, "All Havies do that!"... And then it continued. And you saw her people staying very still and doing NOTHING to encourage her. And her TRYING to settle herself by going under the bed and into her crate, and not being able to calm herself. THAT part is NOT "normal" behavior. THAT part is disturbing to watch.


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

Two thoughts came to mind when watching the videos. One, that floor looks very polished and shiny. I am wondering if the puppy is still learning to walk on that surface? Or was she walking correctly before, and now doing that sliding thing. 

In regards to her manic phase, my Zumba acted the very same way. She lived up to her name in every way. The growling, the running under the corners of the bed, into her cage and out. We have a very long house and she ran like a crazy girl all over it. I figured she was wanting attention, so when she’d start doing that, I would chase her, screaming and waving my arms. It was great exercise, and we’d have fun. When she was done, she’d plop down and refuse to move. Game over. Time to sleep. She’s almost 4 now, and still gets those zoomies, though nothing as crazy as at the beginning. Though she still loves me to chase her around the house. If I haven’t done it in awhile, she’ll come to me, turn around and start running away, while she looks back like she’s saying, “come on. Chase me!”


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

As far as the slipping, I would make sure the paw pads are trimmed up. I do Mia's every couple weeks or she will start slipping on a slick floor. Her hair grows super fast. Many people do not go to a groomer that often so this can be a problem.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Jeanniek said:


> Two thoughts came to mind when watching the videos. One, that floor looks very polished and shiny. I am wondering if the puppy is still learning to walk on that surface? Or was she walking correctly before, and now doing that sliding thing.
> 
> In regards to her manic phase, my Zumba acted the very same way. She lived up to her name in every way. The growling, the running under the corners of the bed, into her cage and out. We have a very long house and she ran like a crazy girl all over it. I figured she was wanting attention, so when she’d start doing that, I would chase her, screaming and waving my arms. It was great exercise, and we’d have fun. When she was done, she’d plop down and refuse to move. Game over. Time to sleep. She’s almost 4 now, and still gets those zoomies, though nothing as crazy as at the beginning. Though she still loves me to chase her around the house. If I haven’t done it in awhile, she’ll come to me, turn around and start running away, while she looks back like she’s saying, “come on. Chase me!”


Although other videos definitely show something going on with Josie, I also didn't see any red flags in the zoomie video. My Sophie was exactly the same way at that age. I never had a crate set up (since I work from home and was always here with her) but she would race like crazy and then run and plop down for a minute in her soft sided dog house just like Josie did, then off again. When she got super charged like that, I knew I needed to increase her exercise, training etc to wear her out a bit more. 

I also agree about the slick floor could be wrong but that is what it looked like to me too. I do photo shoots with Sophie on seamless background paper that is slipper and her feet would slide out from under her also. If Josie weren't having the head bobbing, etc I wouldn't have been concerned about that either. I sure hope they find what is wrong hopefully the flea treatment and she'll recover. I know SO many dogs and cats who have had bad reactions and even died from flea collars, sprays etc.


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## lindam (Dec 16, 2020)

I'm sorry that I don't have any advice but want to say that Josie is lucky to have puppy parents like you two. Your observations are very detailed and well documented which will give Josie a better chance of finding a provider who can help. Best of luck to you.


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## fairyfloss0 (Jan 30, 2021)

Hi, I am in Australia and can tell you the zoomies are quite normal. I have 5 of them and every morning and afternoon this is the behaviour they partake in. For over half an hour they are dashing up my hallway out through the doggy door around the largish backyard and rinse and repeat. As for the head bobbing I am going to suggest a mild form of epilepsy bought on by the use of the Bravecto. I tell all my puppy people to stay away from these medications as they are known to cause problems in Havanese and other dogs. Havanese are known to be more sensitive to these types of meds, the C5 vaccine and anaesthetic. Epilepsy so far has not been recognized as hereditary in the breed and it can occur suddenly in any breed. However some breeds are known to have a genetic component. The jury is out on the Havanese. Your pups scratching with that heavy collar on is normal. It is good that you are observant however with the over the top zoomies I do think she is thinking it is a behaviour that you want as you do not curtail it.


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## eric.muller (Nov 14, 2021)

I appreciated all of these responses to my question and wanted to share an update. We were able to get Josie seen by the neurology team at North Carolina State Veterinary Hospital on Wednesday. An outstanding facility. Unlike the veterinary neurologist we had been working with, the doc at NC State listened very carefully, was extremely thorough, and explained exactly why he was ruling out what he was ruling out and leaving in the mix what remains. His bottom line is that this is not a seizure disorder. He also seriously considered the possibility that the flea and tick medicines were to blame, but when we looked carefully over the pattern of episodes and administrations of the drugs, it was pretty clear that they are proceeding on different tracks entirely. His best guess is that Josie has a movement disorder. paroxysmal diskenesia, if you want to be all fancy about it. 

It's not an especially well understood condition in humans, and there is even less research on dogs. But he thinks there's a chance that the medicine called keppra might help reduce the frequency and severity of the episodes, so we are trying her on that. Fortunately, she's a couple of days in now and is tolerating it well. 

We are trying to stay hopeful that this will be something that either can be successfully managed with medication or that she will grow out of.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

krandall said:


> I agree. When I started watching the zoom one, my first thought was, "All Havies do that!"... And then it continued. And you saw her people staying very still and doing NOTHING to encourage her. And her TRYING to settle herself by going under the bed and into her crate, and not being able to calm herself. THAT part is NOT "normal" behavior. THAT part is disturbing to watch.





eric.muller said:


> I appreciated all of these responses to my question and wanted to share an update. We were able to get Josie seen by the neurology team at North Carolina State Veterinary Hospital on Wednesday. An outstanding facility. Unlike the veterinary neurologist we had been working with, the doc at NC State listened very carefully, was extremely thorough, and explained exactly why he was ruling out what he was ruling out and leaving in the mix what remains. His bottom line is that this is not a seizure disorder. He also seriously considered the possibility that the flea and tick medicines were to blame, but when we looked carefully over the pattern of episodes and administrations of the drugs, it was pretty clear that they are proceeding on different tracks entirely. His best guess is that Josie has a movement disorder. paroxysmal diskenesia, if you want to be all fancy about it.
> 
> It's not an especially well understood condition in humans, and there is even less research on dogs. But he thinks there's a chance that the medicine called keppra might help reduce the frequency and severity of the episodes, so we are trying her on that. Fortunately, she's a couple of days in now and is tolerating it well.
> 
> We are trying to stay hopeful that this will be something that either can be successfully managed with medication or that she will grow out of.


thank you so much for the update! I also hope she will just grow out of it. I'm glad you got some answers!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

eric.muller said:


> I appreciated all of these responses to my question and wanted to share an update. We were able to get Josie seen by the neurology team at North Carolina State Veterinary Hospital on Wednesday. An outstanding facility. Unlike the veterinary neurologist we had been working with, the doc at NC State listened very carefully, was extremely thorough, and explained exactly why he was ruling out what he was ruling out and leaving in the mix what remains. His bottom line is that this is not a seizure disorder. He also seriously considered the possibility that the flea and tick medicines were to blame, but when we looked carefully over the pattern of episodes and administrations of the drugs, it was pretty clear that they are proceeding on different tracks entirely. His best guess is that Josie has a movement disorder. paroxysmal diskenesia, if you want to be all fancy about it.
> 
> It's not an especially well understood condition in humans, and there is even less research on dogs. But he thinks there's a chance that the medicine called keppra might help reduce the frequency and severity of the episodes, so we are trying her on that. Fortunately, she's a couple of days in now and is tolerating it well.
> 
> We are trying to stay hopeful that this will be something that either can be successfully managed with medication or that she will grow out of.


Great that you have found someone to help you with her problems! Good luck! ❤. Keep us posted!


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## fairyfloss0 (Jan 30, 2021)

Hi Eric
I am so happy you have found a vet that is prepared to listen. I am fortunate to have a good vet here in Australia. This is the article I was directed to re my boys symptoms. Canine Dyskinesia


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## KiwiMm (10 mo ago)

We are delighted you found someone so thorough and pray that she gets better and that she will grow out of it…


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## LindaJC (May 9, 2018)

eric.muller said:


> I appreciated all of these responses to my question and wanted to share an update. We were able to get Josie seen by the neurology team at North Carolina State Veterinary Hospital on Wednesday. An outstanding facility. Unlike the veterinary neurologist we had been working with, the doc at NC State listened very carefully, was extremely thorough, and explained exactly why he was ruling out what he was ruling out and leaving in the mix what remains. His bottom line is that this is not a seizure disorder. He also seriously considered the possibility that the flea and tick medicines were to blame, but when we looked carefully over the pattern of episodes and administrations of the drugs, it was pretty clear that they are proceeding on different tracks entirely. His best guess is that Josie has a movement disorder. paroxysmal diskenesia, if you want to be all fancy about it.
> 
> It's not an especially well understood condition in humans, and there is even less research on dogs. But he thinks there's a chance that the medicine called keppra might help reduce the frequency and severity of the episodes, so we are trying her on that. Fortunately, she's a couple of days in now and is tolerating it well.
> 
> We are trying to stay hopeful that this will be something that either can be successfully managed with medication or that she will grow out of.


So glad you received a second opinion and diagnosis. I hope it’s not a serious or progressive condition (need to Google it) and that she responds well to the meds. Sharing with us helps us all learn, so thank you for that. I hope she continues to do OK and that she isn’t suffering in any way.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

I've been following your posts but haven't had anything to contribute. But I'm so glad you have found a good vet to deal with your problem. I pray that your furbaby responds well to the treatment. She is so cute and it's so hard on us when they have problems. Please keep posting her progress.


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## PrincessLexi (9 mo ago)

mudpuppymama said:


> Amen to what Tom said. Medications and vaccines are the last to blame for anything if they are even blamed at all. My Mia had neurological issues from a rabies vaccine. I stopped all vaccines and all flea and heartworm drugs. She was fine after about a year. She will be 14 in two months and healthy. I belong to a group where people never vaccinate their dogs at all due to the things they have personally experienced...and not just with over vaccination.


I would like to not vaccinate but vets wont see the my Hav if not vaccinated. How do you get around that if you need to take your pup to a vet. Or board? I have been doing Titer tests so not to vaccinate. Any info appreciated since I'm kind of a new dog mom.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

HavanOreo said:


> I would like to not vaccinate but vets wont see the my Hav if not vaccinated. How do you get around that if you need to take your pup to a vet. Or board? I have been doing Titer tests so not to vaccinate. Any info appreciated since I'm kind of a new dog mom.


When you say you don't want to vaccinate - what do you mean - do you mean at all? There's a huge difference between minimal vaccination protocols and not vaccinating at all. If you're doing titers that means you did vaccinate already?


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## PrincessLexi (9 mo ago)

Melissa Brill said:


> When you say you don't want to vaccinate - what do you mean - do you mean at all? There's a huge difference between minimal vaccination protocols and not vaccinating at all. If you're doing titers that means you did vaccinate already?


Yes, my pup is 18 months and had all vacs/shots and rabies. Its the rabie shot makes me nervous.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

HavanOreo said:


> Yes, my pup is 18 months and had all vacs/shots and rabies. Its the rabie shot makes me nervous.


The answer to that is going to vary depending on your state - but generally I think it's difficult (almost impossible) to not do at least the 3 year rabies vaccine unless you have a strong medical reason not to (like Karen has for Kodi) - but that justification would need to come from your vet AND the state would have to accept it.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

PrincessLexi said:


> I would like to not vaccinate but vets wont see the my Hav if not vaccinated. How do you get around that if you need to take your pup to a vet. Or board? I have been doing Titer tests so not to vaccinate. Any info appreciated since I'm kind of a new dog mom.


I have been fortunate to find vets who are understanding about my Mia having vaccine reactions and respect my decision to not vaccinate her further, even for rabies. Note that Mia has been vaccinated (actually over vaccinated) and I have done titers to prove that immunity. If you are talking about not vaccinating at all, I am not personally experienced with that and that could be more difficult. However, I know people who do not vaccinate at all and somehow get veterinary care. One woman told her vet she is simply not vaccinating her dog and asked him if he was okay with it or else she would just go elsewhere.

You may have to search around for an open minded vet. Holistic or integrative vets are more likely aware of vaccine issues, however many regular vets are fine with it too. A mobile vet may be more understanding too. It helps to establish a good relationship with a vet so they know your dog and that your dog won’t bite them and they are aware of your dog’s lifestyle and are supportive of how you want to raise your dog. If you are doing titers, the vet should know your dog has immunity and not be pushing vaccines, even for rabies. The rabies laws make no sense.

Boarding and grooming may be more problematic. They have their rules and there is not much you can do about that unless they accept titers. You could check into getting a dog sitter or use a mobile groomer who may be less strict about vaccine rules.

Vaccines are intended for healthy dogs only and should definitely not be given to dogs who have had previous reactions. For a dog with a known medical condition, the vet should not be vaccinating them although it happens all the time. If they do, I would move on to a different vet. The problem with vaccine “reactions” is that often times a dog has an issue and there is no way to prove that the vaccine caused it. A dog like Josie with neurological problems should not received any vaccines IMO whether or not it was caused by vaccines.

Remember that you are in control of your animal’s health and that the vet is working for you. You may have to shop around for a vet who agrees with how you want to raise your dog. It may not be easy, but worth the effort. Good luck.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

PrincessLexi said:


> I would like to not vaccinate but vets wont see the my Hav if not vaccinated. How do you get around that if you need to take your pup to a vet. Or board? I have been doing Titer tests so not to vaccinate. Any info appreciated since I'm kind of a new dog mom.


The only vaccine that vets MUST insist on for their license is Rabies. Everything else is up to the owner. And the "core" vaccines... the "important" one to protect her from are Parvo and Distemper. It is VERY likely that she is already fully protected for those by the vaccines she has already received, and you can titer for these instead. Rabies is only an every 3 year shot, and in SOME places, a dog can be exempted if they have an illness that the vaccine would make worse. I am not at all sure this qualifies, but you might want to check into it.


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

Just my 2 cents worth here. Before I had the knowledge I do now, our old vet made us purchase the higher level of Bravecto. The average weight of a Havanese puts them on the border. I refused to give them that much. Several years ago, Cotton had some fleas after a freind watched him, without telling me their house was infested. I cut it in half, cut it again and gave him about 1/4.
Two hours later I found 4 fleas on him that were dead. I used my magnified head band and they were definitely dead, dead, dead! Not even a micro-movement. We don't live around ticks so maybe that's why it was so concentrated. That was the only link I could ever make back when JoJo suddenly developed seizures so young. Needless to say, that stuff will never touch their lips again. 
I had Titer testing on Cotton and JoJo. JoJo's gone of course, but Cotton is still covered. I will also be having it done on Jodie next year.

P.S. For anyone new reading this, My avatar is a portrait from Dee Dee (above). An incredibly talented artist-obviously!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

JaJa said:


> Just my 2 cents worth here. Before I had the knowledge I do now, our old vet made us purchase the higher level of Bravecto. The average weight of a Havanese puts them on the border. I refused to give them that much. Several years ago, Cotton had some fleas after a freind watched him, without telling me their house was infested. I cut it in half, cut it again and gave him about 1/4.
> Two hours later I found 4 fleas on him that were dead. I used my magnified head band and they were definitely dead, dead, dead! Not even a micro-movement. We don't live around ticks so maybe that's why it was so concentrated. That was the only link I could ever make back when JoJo suddenly developed seizures so young. Needless to say, that stuff will never touch their lips again.
> I had Titer testing on Cotton and JoJo. JoJo's gone of course, but Cotton is still covered. I will also be having it done on Jodie next year.
> 
> P.S. For anyone new reading this, My avatar is a portrait from Dee Dee (above). An incredibly talented artist-obviously!



While it is the topical, not a feed-through, (which I would NEVER use) I have used Advantix II for my dogs for many years. When I went to put it on my dogs this spring, Duck had reached 11 led. I waffled on what do. The one time I'd used it on him last year, he was well under 10 lbs, and had tolerated that dose fine. Pixel has always been on that "small dog dose sine she weighs just under 10 lbs. I use the "Medium dog" size on Panda (12 1/2 lbs) and Kodi (17 lbs) and neither of them have ever had a problem, and the medium dog range is 11-25 lbs.

But even when I went to dose him, I waffled, with him RIGHT at 11 lbs. I used it, and he was"off his feed", not cleaning up his meals and vomitted off and on for 3 days. Not terribly sick, but clearly not himself. I talked to his vet about it, and she agreed with me that from how on, I should go back to the Small dog dose for him. He is clearly too close to the size cut-off, and since the lower dose doesn't bother him, unless there is clear evidence that it is not keeping ticks off him, we should stick to that. She thinks it will be fine, especially since there is a fair amount of "wiggle room" in their dosing.

Because of the connection between Bartonella and Hemangiosarcoma, I just DON'T dare not to protect my dogs against ticks in our area. I can treat them for Lyme and most other TBD's. Hemangiosarcoma is ALWAYS a killer.


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## PrincessLexi (9 mo ago)

mudpuppymama said:


> I have been fortunate to find vets who are understanding about my Mia having vaccine reactions and respect my decision to not vaccinate her further, even for rabies. Note that Mia has been vaccinated (actually over vaccinated) and I have done titers to prove that immunity. If you are talking about not vaccinating at all, I am not personally experienced with that and that could be more difficult. However, I know people who do not vaccinate at all and somehow get veterinary care. One woman told her vet she is simply not vaccinating her dog and asked him if he was okay with it or else she would just go elsewhere.
> 
> You may have to search around for an open minded vet. Holistic or integrative vets are more likely aware of vaccine issues, however many regular vets are fine with it too. A mobile vet may be more understanding too. It helps to establish a good relationship with a vet so they know your dog and that your dog won’t bite them and they are aware of your dog’s lifestyle and are supportive of how you want to raise your dog. If you are doing titers, the vet should know your dog has immunity and not be pushing vaccines, even for rabies. The rabies laws make no sense.
> 
> ...


Thank you!! Great info. I really appreciate that info. I definitely want my fur baby protected but like myself not going to vaccinate because someone saying I should. Her very recent titers show she is good for Parvo and distemper. Rabies good for 3 years. She just acted not herself after the last rabies. 
TX again for your help!!


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## ER100 (5 mo ago)

When my little Maltese developed neurological problems his MRI showed encephalitis and the spinal tap established that it was most likely immune based. Once that was diagnosed Sherlock's neurologist was the first to stand up and say that he should never have another vaccination. So some vets will acknowledge when it may be too dangerous to vaccinate.

I am starting my Havanese Pup with a new General Veterinarian and will be asking that we go conservative on vaccinations and just do what is absolutely necessary but not every vaccination under the sun. I think I will also ask that for future boosters we do titer testing first.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> While it is the topical, not a feed-through, (which I would NEVER use) I have used Advantix II for my dogs for many years. When I went to put it on my dogs this spring, Duck had reached 11 led. I waffled on what do. The one time I'd used it on him last year, he was well under 10 lbs, and had tolerated that dose fine. Pixel has always been on that "small dog dose sine she weighs just under 10 lbs. I use the "Medium dog" size on Panda (12 1/2 lbs) and Kodi (17 lbs) and neither of them have ever had a problem, and the medium dog range is 11-25 lbs.
> 
> But even when I went to dose him, I waffled, with him RIGHT at 11 lbs. I used it, and he was"off his feed", not cleaning up his meals and vomitted off and on for 3 days. Not terribly sick, but clearly not himself. I talked to his vet about it, and she agreed with me that from how on, I should go back to the Small dog dose for him. He is clearly too close to the size cut-off, and since the lower dose doesn't bother him, unless there is clear evidence that it is not keeping ticks off him, we should stick to that. She thinks it will be fine, especially since there is a fair amount of "wiggle room" in their dosing.
> 
> Because of the connection between Bartonella and Hemangiosarcoma, I just DON'T dare not to protect my dogs against ticks in our area. I can treat them for Lyme and most other TBD's. Hemangiosarcoma is ALWAYS a killer.


Even though Perry is 11 pounds I've always kept him on the small dog dose of advantix and he's done fine on it. I didn't feel it would be justified in our case to double the dose for 1 pounds weight difference. 

Re: cutting pills for meds to reduce the dose, be careful. I asked the vet about this for Perry's heartgard and she said that you shouldn't because the dose was not evenly distributed in the chew so you couldn't be sure you were getting 1/2 a dose if you give them half a chew.

Re: bravecto, they have finally admitted that it can cause neurological issues including seizures and death in some dogs, and others are perfectly fine. My sister uses it for her dogs because one was showing allergic reactions to the topicals. The problem is that there isn't a test to see if your dog will have a reaction to bravecto or not and by the time you realise it, it could be too late so I avoid the chewable like bravecto and nextgard.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> Even though Perry is 11 pounds I've always kept him on the small dog dose of advantix and he's done fine on it. I didn't feel it would be justified in our case to double the dose for 1 pounds weight difference.


That’s what we’ve decided for Ducky!!! He’s staying on the small dog dose!!!


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

ER100 said:


> When my little Maltese developed neurological problems his MRI showed encephalitis and the spinal tap established that it was most likely immune based. Once that was diagnosed Sherlock's neurologist was the first to stand up and say that he should never have another vaccination. So some vets will acknowledge when it may be too dangerous to vaccinate.
> 
> I am starting my Havanese Pup with a new General Veterinarian and will be asking that we go conservative on vaccinations and just do what is absolutely necessary but not every vaccination under the sun. I think I will also ask that for future boosters we do titer testing first.


That's exactly what I've done. Jodie (3 1/2) had her titer 6 months ago and it was perfect/negative. Lacie had her DAP last week and will have her rabies in 2 1/2 weeks. Next spring she'll have her titers. Our vet is only one of a few in this area that will do titers. Our vet is happy that we want to do that instead of endless vaccines.
How old is Watson? Sherlock then Watson, I like that😋 Although I am so sorry that you had to say goodbye to Sherlock. We lost our oldest last year and it was a very difficult time. Lacie is 3 1/2 months so she and Watson are the same age. Our middle _child_, Jodie, is 14 pounds even though Cotton and our first boy was/is only 10 pounds. I expect Lacie to be closer to Jodie's size. Jodie's Dad was 20 pounds. Small dogs are easier in some ways since I'm 63 but I wouldn't trade Lacie's personality for anything, she's perfect🥰
Also, how are you doing with Watson's car sickness? I was thinking about Watson when Lacie got sick 2 weeks ago driving to our in laws. She was fine coming home though. 
Welcome to the forum Watson!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Just one little thing… you do NOT want titers to be “negative”. (I’m sure Jodie’s wasn’t) In the case of titers, you want a good solid POSITIVE response, shoeing that the dog still has immunity to whatever disease she is vaccinated for!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

JaJa said:


> That's exactly what I've done. Jodie (3 1/2) had her titer 6 months ago and it was perfect/negative. Lacie had her DAP last week and will have her rabies in 2 1/2 weeks. Next spring she'll have her titers. Our vet is only one of a few in this area that will do titers. Our vet is happy that we want to do that instead of endless vaccines.
> How old is Watson? Sherlock then Watson, I like that😋 Although I am so sorry that you had to say goodbye to Sherlock. We lost our oldest last year and it was a very difficult time. Lacie is 3 1/2 months so she and Watson are the same age. Our middle _child_, Jodie, is 14 pounds even though Cotton and our first boy was/is only 10 pounds. I expect Lacie to be closer to Jodie's size. Jodie's Dad was 20 pounds. Small dogs are easier in some ways since I'm 63 but I wouldn't trade Lacie's personality for anything, she's perfect🥰
> Also, how are you doing with Watson's car sickness? I was thinking about Watson when Lacie got sick 2 weeks ago driving to our in laws. She was fine coming home though.
> Welcome to the forum Watson!


I thought it was best to wait until 5 or 6 months for rabies vax.


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

krandall said:


> Just one little thing… you do NOT want titers to be “negative”. (I’m sure Jodie’s wasn’t) In the case of titers, you want a good solid POSITIVE response, shoeing that the dog still has immunity to whatever disease she is vaccinated for!


That's what I get for staying up so late😆 Yes, all of Jodie's Titers were definitely positive!


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