# Breed suggestion other than Havanese on a Havanese Forum? Crazy right?



## destiny (Nov 26, 2010)

Hello,

My PERFECT dog, a Havanese, passed away this past November from cancer. I decided not to get a Havanese for two reasons, one, he was very special, and I don't want to compare and two, I noticed with little dogs you have to pick them up a lot. For instance, to get in the car, on a table at the vet's office and sometimes if you take too long of a walk or carrying them in a carrier through the airport. My back sometimes bothers me so I have decided to get a smaller breed, perhaps a Pomeranian, longhaired Chihuahua or Maltese. I am looking for a dog around seven pounds so not super tiny but definitely smaller than most Havanese. Does anyone have experience with any of these breeds or have a breed recommendation for me. My Havanese was a certified therapy dog which I would love to continue with and also, competed in rally which we did together for fun. My Havanese was so well behaved he was a welcome guest on planes, in hotels and at restaurants and stores, he went everywhere with us. He was quiet, like any dog, he would bark if someone rang the bell, he was calm, easy going and so easy to train. He wanted to please me and loved praise and treats. I am looking for a smaller dog with the Havanese outgoing temperament. Any suggestions?
Thank you,

Cristine


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Cristine, I think you are barking up the wrong tree. In my opinion, no other breed can come close to a Havanese. You are setting yourself up for disappointment with a different breed. Why do you want something other than ANOTHER "perfect dog." As far as comparing one to another, every dog temperament varies to some extent and you will quickly learn that you are madly in love with your new Havanese and enjoy the differences. Maybe you are not ready for another dog yet, you are still grieving for your lost soulmate. It takes time to heal, and you will heal but never forget, which is good.

Be well Cristine (and welcome back to Havanese Forum)


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

My next dog won't be a Havanese (gasp! blasphemy!), so I'm a firm believer that different doesn't mean less than. You are well within your rights to look outside of the breed  I do think there are things you will need to be prepared to sacrifice if you opt for a smaller breed as there are only so many breeds that ARE smaller, and they all have their quirks. 

Poms are a Spitz breed, and Chihuahuas are to be terrier-like, so neither is likely to fit a temperament you may be wanting if you want something similar to your Havanese. Maltese are bichon type dogs, like Havanese, so they will be closer in temperament. All 3, and most other toy breeds, are going to prove difficult in finding a breeder doing the correct health testing. Havs are a bit of an anomaly there. I personally think Toy Poodles would be worth looking into.

Another important consideration... You're going to be picking up an even smaller dog far more frequently than a Havanese. Some struggle with certain staircases, many grow tired faster. Is the higher frequency and greater duration going to cancel out any benefit a smaller size may give? If lifting is what's giving you trouble, it may be worth looking into something that's actually larger. Just food for thought.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Have you looked into a Russian Bolonka? From what I understand, they are genetically the closest breed to Havanese, closer than modern Bichons, and they are smaller. From what I understand, their temperaments are very similar, bred as companions, but I think they are different enough that you’d have a different experience with many of the characteristics you enjoy. There are very few breeders in the U.S. and they are still working on being recognized by the AKC. However they are recognized in many places outside of the U.S. and are a distinct breed. I remember reading that they had to cancel events towards the beginning of COVID that had to do with becoming recognized. I think they are also a lot more expensive.

i don’t have hands on experience with them, but I didn’t have hands on experience with Havanese, either, and Sundance is just right for us. I spent a lot of time seriously considering a Bolonka as our second puppy. I haven’t eliminated the option, but there aren’t many breeders in the U.S., we were discussing moving internationally to an area where there are many excellent breeders, and our plans for a second puppy are paused for a little while. It seems like the community is beginning to grow in the U.S. 

Another option would be to work with a Havanese breeder you can share all of this with. It’s not uncommon for someone to feel the way you do, and I think a lot of breeders would be willing to try and do what they can to give you a different experience, even something as simple as a different color might help prevent comparison. Prioritizing a smaller puppy is also reasonable when it’s based on a physical need instead of appearance.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

I think KarMar makes a great point…a bigger dog may be better. Less picking them up and less fragility…worrying about them hurting themself jumping off furniture for example. If they do hurt themself you are.REALLY going to be picking them up a lot. My friend’s daughter has a gorgeous Pomeranian that turned out to be 10 pounds. I have a yorkie who is 10 pounds (and a great dog BTW). So there is no guarantees as far as adult size goes. I love my yorkie and he does not fit the standard terrier mold. Easy to potty train, does not bark much, easy going…


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## Johanna (11 mo ago)

I understand looking for something different. I've been a Pug person for 25 years but was looking for something a little different (less shedding, health issues, etc) and after much research I found myself completely smitten and in love with the Havanese. I honestly am in love with the Havanese breed now and can't imagine life without one.. and I want another. 

If you think it would be emotionally hard to get another Havanese and you would find yourself comparing your new companion to your former Havanese love, then maybe it is best that you move on to something completely different for the sake of yourself and the new dog. Be prepared for a completely different experience. But do some soul searching to make sure that you really want to go another route when you're former baby was PERFECT! No dog can replace the love you had before but they can fill the void in your heart if you allow.

You might look into a Brussels Griffon. They are small, intelligent and are known to bond tightly with their special person.

Another thought as far as lifting and therapy dogs go is as somone mentioned above... maybe go with a larger dog. I have a close friend that has a couple of certified therapy dogs and is an evaluator for the program. She is older and has rheumatoid arthritis and was having a hard time lifting her therapy Pugs for the hospital, nursing home visits, etc. One of her therapy dogs had to retire and she just got a Golden Retriever pup to start as her newest therapy dog.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Karan Balzs Lovless, a well known Havanese breeder/show person JUST posted on FB this evening about a 6.5 lb 2 year old Havanese that she wants to place. She might be perfect fo you…






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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> Karan Balzs Lovless, a well known Havanese breeder/show person JUST posted on FB this evening about a 6.5 lb 2 year old Havanese that she wants to place. She might be perfect fo you…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This looks like an outstanding Havanese to me and so cute, I'd be surprised if she is still available!


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Oh goodness! That is the cutest little munchkin ever! 🤗


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## UrsaMinor (Jul 4, 2021)

Oh no... I looked up the Russian Bolonka and now I want one too. lol

And this tiny cute Havanese is giving me MHS. I would love a very small Havanese next.


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## Johanna (11 mo ago)

DogFather said:


> This looks like an outstanding Havanese to me and so cute, I'd be surprised if she is still available!


She looks pretty amazing to me as well! I'm sitting on my hands over here but I'm sure she will be snatched up in a heartbeat by a great home. And my heart is looking for a little boy. But it makes it harder that I'll be in Florida next week visiting my other home and this little girl is located not far from where I grew up.


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

UrsaMinor said:


> Oh no... I looked up the Russian Bolonka and now I want one too. lol
> 
> And this tiny cute Havanese is giving me MHS. I would love a very small Havanese next.


Size is so tricky with these guys…. My 9 yo guy is healthy at 17 lbs and an inch over standard (mom and dad were 10 and 12 lb) and my almost 8 month old girl weighed in this evening at 7 lb 1oz! Her parents are both in the 10-12 lb range too, but doesn’t look like she’ll be getting anywhere close to that. What she lacks in size she makes up for in personality! And my mom has a 7 month old male Hav who is healthy and within standard height, but 16.5 lbs… again, well bred and average sized parents. I know good breeders often have an inkling but since they can grow at different rates it’s so hard to be sure… both of the big Havs’ breeders thought they’d top out at 12-14lb max. My girl’s breeder thought she’d be on the small size but still not sure where she’ll top out. All that is to say…. If you have your heart set on a particular size or have practical reasons that you need a small dog, it might be ideal to go for an adult or at least an older pup… 😄


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

I understand wanting a different breed. My corgi was my heart dog. She was part of me. I love corgis but when I lost her I was afraid I would always compare another corgi to her. Then again she weighed 30 lbs. and needed to be lifted up a lot due to a genetic condition she developed later in life. So, I felt a small dog under 15 lbs. would be best for me and settled on the havanese. Willow has never weighed over 9 lbs. so she is a perfect weight. I love her to death and there is no way I can compare her to my corgi. She is totally different in every respect. Nice not to have the shedding also. Good luck in your search.


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

Wow, these are great posts! I understand what you mean Destiny. I wonder about our future with dogs since I can't imagine going back to a one dog home since our nest is empty. Our baby that is my avatar passed away last year and we were heart broken. I loved having 3 and they were very similar yet very different. I'm afraid to start looking at the different breeds suggested to you because I want another puppy! Right now I'm living vicariously through Karen 😋 You certainly came to the right place for excellent feedback!


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

I think Havanese are just the best little dogs! I like their happy personalities! If I had a chose another breed it would be a Maltese.


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

Heather's said:


> I think Havanese are just the best little dogs! I like their happy personalities! If I had a chose another breed it would be a Maltese.


Ed just said he's not sure he could have any dog other than a Havanese and reminded me that he will always gladly help with them. When I was bedridden last year, after my vaccines, he did all the bathing, drying and grooming for 3 months. I have always had Cotton in a puppy cut but even back then Jodie was in long coat. This is my shout out for my definitely daring husband and dog Dad💖


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

JaJa said:


> Ed just said he's not sure he could have any dog other than a Havanese and reminded me that he will always gladly help with them.


Ed and I are in total agreement on those points! 👍



> When I was bedridden last year, after my vaccines, he did all the bathing, drying and grooming for 3 months. I have always had Cotton in a puppy cut but even back then Jodie was in long coat. This is my shout out for my definitely daring husband and dog Dad💖


You do us men proud Ed. You are an exemplary HavaPaPa and husband!


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

DogFather said:


> Ed and I are in total agreement on those points! 👍
> 
> 
> You do us men proud Ed. You are an exemplary HavaPaPa and husband!


Thats very nice, thank you! We've gotten back to me reading posts to him and showing him pics whenever they're posted. The first picture I remember seeing here was Ricky standing up next to another dog trying to look over a cement block wall. It was so darn cute. Ed's response was "That's awesome, he's cute." He couldn't care less if some other man thinks he's not macho because he has foo foo dogs. He's perfectly fine taking them for walks with Jodie's bows and sparkly hair clips. Being an exemplary husband and HavaPaPa is pretty macho in my book😋😉


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

JaJa said:


> Thats very nice, thank you! We've gotten back to me reading posts to him and showing him pics whenever they're posted. The first picture I remember seeing here was Ricky standing up next to another dog trying to look over a cement block wall. It was so darn cute. Ed's response was "That's awesome, he's cute." He couldn't care less if some other man thinks he's not macho because he has foo foo dogs. He's perfectly fine taking them for walks with Jodie's bows and sparkly hair clips. Being an exemplary husband and HavaPaPa is pretty macho in my book😋😉


"Dave-The-Dog-Hater" has fallen - HARD too. I would have to say COMPLETELY! LOL!



























And lest you think he ONLY loves BLACK dogs... (Ducky wasn't born in this photo or he'd be in there too!  )


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

krandall said:


> "Dave-The-Dog-Hater" has fallen - HARD too. I would have to say COMPLETELY! LOL!
> View attachment 177085
> 
> 
> ...


Too cute!💖 I can't wait to show these to Ed after work. Dog hater? Yeah sure Dave!


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## BocaVista (11 mo ago)

destiny said:


> My PERFECT dog, a Havanese, passed away this past November from cancer. I decided not to get a Havanese for two reasons, one, he was very special, and I don't want to compare


First of all Cristine, I want to offer you my condolences on the loss of your wonderful companion. My wife and I lost our beloved Lotus just a few days ago (February 18, 2022). Before she passed away, I had the same feelings as you (Lotus was perfect - there will never be another Lotus, I don't want to compare Lotus with another Havanese, it would be disrespectful to get another dog, etc.). Well, that lasted for about one day. I came to realize how much of a void we now have in our home (my wife and I are recently retired and our children are grown and living on their own). I am deeply heartbroken and suspect I will be for a long time. I've come to realize that Lotus' legacy is that because of her we will welcome and love another Havanese. 

I also agree with the others that said there is no other dog to even compare to a Havanese. It is the perfect breed IMHO. 

Again, I'm sorry for your loss...


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

BocaVista said:


> First of all Cristine, I want to offer you my condolences on the loss of your wonderful companion. My wife and I lost our beloved Lotus just a few days ago (February 18, 2022). Before she passed away, I had the same feelings as you (Lotus was perfect - there will never be another Lotus, I don't want to compare Lotus with another Havanese, it would be disrespectful to get another dog, etc.). Well, that lasted for about one day. I came to realize how much of a void we now have in our home (my wife and I are recently retired and our children are grown and living on their own). I am deeply heartbroken and suspect I will be for a long time. I've come to realize that Lotus' legacy is that because of her we will welcome and love another Havanese.
> 
> I also agree with the others that said there is no other dog to even compare to a Havanese. It is the perfect breed IMHO.
> 
> Again, I'm sorry for your loss...


Welcome BocaVista, I'm sorry to hear you lost your baby and understand your void. Last year his was one of the few places where we didn't receive the comment "Well you have 2 other dogs." Karen said that no right minded person would say that about their kids . For us with empty nests they are essentially are our kids. 
I'm glad to hear your heart is still open and ready to love. This is a great place to share your next journey. Whether you want support, suggestions, advice or anything else we are all here for you and your future baby💖


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## BocaVista (11 mo ago)

JaJa said:


> This is a great place to share your next journey. Whether you want support, suggestions, advice or anything else we are all here for you and your future baby💖


Hi JaJa. Thank you for your kind words. Yes, I am very impressed with this forum. I am concentrating on finding a few breeders to visit and then I will decide with whom to move forward. I plan to practice "proper etiquette" by only committing to one breeder. I believe that is the proper way to proceed and, if I was a breeder, I would appreciate that approach.

Thank you again, JaJa!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

BocaVista said:


> Hi JaJa. Thank you for your kind words. Yes, I am very impressed with this forum. I am concentrating on finding a few breeders to visit and then I will decide with whom to move forward. I plan to practice "proper etiquette" by only committing to one breeder. I believe that is the proper way to proceed and, if I was a breeder, I would appreciate that approach.
> 
> Thank you again, JaJa!


Just so you know, many good breeders are friends with and work with a number of other good breeders, and are HAPPY to refer you to someone else if they will not have a puppy for you and they know of someone else that they trust who has an up-coming litter!


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> Just so you know, many good breeders are friends with and work with a number of other good breeders, and are HAPPY to refer you to someone else if they will not have a puppy for you and they know of someone else that they trust who has an up-coming litter!


That is the same way it works in California too! The important part is to contact a reputable breeder in the first place and if they don't have anything, they will try to connect you with another reputable breeder who is expecting.

AND just like you and @Tom King their waiting lists are NOT first come first served, they will place their puppies with the most compatible families, wherever they are on their list.


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

BocaVista said:


> Hi JaJa. Thank you for your kind words. Yes, I am very impressed with this forum. I am concentrating on finding a few breeders to visit and then I will decide with whom to move forward. I plan to practice "proper etiquette" by only committing to one breeder. I believe that is the proper way to proceed and, if I was a breeder, I would appreciate that approach.
> 
> Thank you again, JaJa!


Np! You sound very conscientious which I try to be also. Karen has a good point, our breeder for Jodie is in North Carolina and has given us a couple names in Washington and Portland, OR since North Carolina is a little further than Washington state😋 We're counting on her as one of our main references when we are ready for another baby in the future.
Also, that is a great picture of Lotus! It's fun when we can get unscripted pics of our babies💖


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## destiny (Nov 26, 2010)

Hello,

I lost my dear, sweet Havanese to cancer last year and when I had him, I always planned on getting a different breed after he was gone. I guess I was worried I would compare, and I wanted a smaller dog. Ideally, I wanted a dog around seven pounds and for sure under ten pounds. I kept going back to Maltese but I also, considered Longhaired Chihuahua, Pomeranian and Russian Bolonka. After Desi died, I worried I would not be as happy with a different toy breed and would regret not getting another Havanese. I did tons of volunteering with Desi, he was a certified therapy dog and I want to continue to do that with my next dog. It's important that the dog is friendly, outgoing, confident, calm and not a nuisance barker. I worry the other toy breeds may be too barky or not as friendly and outgoing as Desi. I did break down the other day and call a Havanese breeder and she had a three-month-old female Havanese she had kept for show that had a very small cosmetic issue with her bite and she, also, happened to be on the smaller side, would be under ten pounds. She will probably be bigger than some of the other toy breeds I am considering but what's two or three pounds. She is of course, gorgeous and her temperament and personality sound amazing. I am going to meet her in a couple days.
I will keep you posted and send pictures if I get her. I like that she is female, Desi was a male and her coloring is totally different than Desi's. She is different and yet, being the same breed, I am sure will have many of his wonderful qualities.

Do you plan to stick with Havanese or has anyone added or are you thinking of adding a different toy breed?

Look forward to hearing from you.

Destiny


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

destiny said:


> Hello,
> 
> I lost my dear, sweet Havanese to cancer last year and when I had him, I always planned on getting a different breed after he was gone. I guess I was worried I would compare, and I wanted a smaller dog. Ideally, I wanted a dog around seven pounds and for sure under ten pounds. I kept going back to Maltese but I also, considered Longhaired Chihuahua, Pomeranian and Russian Bolonka. After Desi died, I worried I would not be as happy with a different toy breed and would regret not getting another Havanese. I did tons of volunteering with Desi, he was a certified therapy dog and I want to continue to do that with my next dog. It's important that the dog is friendly, outgoing, confident, calm and not a nuisance barker. I worry the other toy breeds may be too barky or not as friendly and outgoing as Desi. I did break down the other day and call a Havanese breeder and she had a three-month-old female Havanese she had kept for show that had a very small cosmetic issue with her bite and she, also, happened to be on the smaller side, would be under ten pounds. She will probably be bigger than some of the other toy breeds I am considering but what's two or three pounds. She is of course, gorgeous and her temperament and personality sound amazing. I am going to meet her in a couple days.
> I will keep you posted and send pictures if I get her. I like that she is female, Desi was a male and her coloring is totally different than Desi's. She is different and yet, being the same breed, I am sure will have many of his wonderful qualities.
> ...


I added a yorkie and could not be happier. However, I have never been around other yorkies so don’t know if he is just unusual. I have been around other terriers and have not cared for them because they all seemed hyper which is a characteristic I do not care for.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

I've had 4 Bichon Frise and now a Havanese, Shadow. I knew that I wanted a small dog, non-shedding with a great personality and beautiful and male. All of my dogs have been male but they have all been different. After the death of my 15 yr. old Romeo, I wanted either another Bichon or a Havanese. Shadow is black so that is different. 
I do compare all of my dogs no matter what the breed. I find the differences between them all to be really interesting. My Hav,, Shadow, is the friendliest, most outgoing but he is more aloof to me. Yet he does not like to be too far from me but he would run off with any nice person if he could.
I think Havanese are the best of the toy breeds. Nothing else compares. You've found the perfect breed!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

destiny said:


> Hello,
> 
> I lost my dear, sweet Havanese to cancer last year and when I had him, I always planned on getting a different breed after he was gone. I guess I was worried I would compare, and I wanted a smaller dog. Ideally, I wanted a dog around seven pounds and for sure under ten pounds. I kept going back to Maltese but I also, considered Longhaired Chihuahua, Pomeranian and Russian Bolonka. After Desi died, I worried I would not be as happy with a different toy breed and would regret not getting another Havanese. I did tons of volunteering with Desi, he was a certified therapy dog and I want to continue to do that with my next dog. It's important that the dog is friendly, outgoing, confident, calm and not a nuisance barker. I worry the other toy breeds may be too barky or not as friendly and outgoing as Desi. I did break down the other day and call a Havanese breeder and she had a three-month-old female Havanese she had kept for show that had a very small cosmetic issue with her bite and she, also, happened to be on the smaller side, would be under ten pounds. She will probably be bigger than some of the other toy breeds I am considering but what's two or three pounds. She is of course, gorgeous and her temperament and personality sound amazing. I am going to meet her in a couple days.
> I will keep you posted and send pictures if I get her. I like that she is female, Desi was a male and her coloring is totally different than Desi's. She is different and yet, being the same breed, I am sure will have many of his wonderful qualities.
> ...


I'm SOOO happy for you!!! Every so often I toy with the idea of a dog of another breed.... But not seriously. There are other breeds I really admire, but I think I am stuck to Havanese through and through! Even with my black and white ones, each one is different enough that I have NO trouble not comparing them! 

The other breeds I would consider if I were NOT to have a Havanese would be, TOP of the list, Border Terrier, others I might consider: Papillon (preferably Phalene), Norwich or Norfolk Terrier, Parson Russell Terrier, Mini Schnauzer, but only from a breeder who didn't crop.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> I added a yorkie and could not be happier. However, I have never been around other yorkies so don’t know if he is just unusual. I have been around other terriers and have not cared for them because they all seemed hyper which is a characteristic I do not care for.


Have you et a Border Terrier? They are are the LEAST "hyper" of ALL the terriers! They make Yorkies look like they are on crack!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tere said:


> I do compare all of my dogs no matter what the breed. I find the differences between them all to be really interesting. My Hav,, Shadow, is the friendliest, most outgoing but he is more aloof to me. Yet he does not like to be too far from me but he would run off with any nice person if he could.


I compare my LIVE ones a bit too! I don't think there is anything wrong with that... It's not even about one being "better" than the other. I just enjoy the nuances of the differences in their personalities!!!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> Have you et a Border Terrier? They are are the LEAST "hyper" of ALL the terriers! They make Yorkies look like they are on crack!


I have not been around many other breeds of dogs period so I really should not be making assumptions. I have not met a Border Terrier. As with all breeds, I think perhaps bad breeding or other factors could result in some bad dispositions. The terriers I have been around are Cairn, Jack Russels, Westies and Scotties (but only one of each). However, someone I know loves Scotties (her absolute favorite breed) and she has 11 of them (1 male and 10 females, all in tact). She says they are not hyper. Many think yorkies are hyper but mine is super laid back. I had no clue what I was looking for when I got Mia…just wanted a cute fluffy dog. It is funny though that I was considering a Papillon and Mia is half Papillon. I think I lucked out with both my dogs. It had nothing to do with my searching abilities!


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

mudpuppymama said:


> I have not been around many other breeds of dogs period so I really should not be making assumptions. I have not met a Border Terrier. As with all breeds, I think perhaps bad breeding or other factors could result in some bad dispositions. The terriers I have been around are Cairn, Jack Russels, Westies and Scotties (but only one of each). However, someone I know loves Scotties (her absolute favorite breed) and she has 11 of them (1 male and 10 females, all in tact). She says they are not hyper. Many think yorkies are hyper but mine is super laid back. I had no clue what I was looking for when I got Mia…just wanted a cute fluffy dog. It is funny though that I was considering a Papillon and Mia is half Papillon. I think I lucked out with both my dogs. It had nothing to do with my searching abilities!


I also have not been around a lot of breeds. I've only had had a Collie and Havanese. Our old groomer said she could have 10 Norwich terriers! 😮 My friend had a darling Westie who recently passed, but so many medical issues. I'm definitely a Havanese person!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> I have not been around many other breeds of dogs period so I really should not be making assumptions. I have not met a Border Terrier. As with all breeds, I think perhaps bad breeding or other factors could result in some bad dispositions. The terriers I have been around are Cairn, Jack Russels, Westies and Scotties (but only one of each). However, someone I know loves Scotties (her absolute favorite breed) and she has 11 of them (1 male and 10 females, all in tact). She says they are not hyper. Many think yorkies are hyper but mine is super laid back. I had no clue what I was looking for when I got Mia…just wanted a cute fluffy dog. It is funny though that I was considering a Papillon and Mia is half Papillon. I think I lucked out with both my dogs. It had nothing to do with my searching abilities!


Scotties are certainly not hyper, but they are pretty independent and not great sports dogs. (Which is important to me) all the dogs on my list are high on the biddability/ “want to work with people” scale. All terriers are a little higher energy (by BREED) than Havanese (by BREED) although there are, of course, exceptions to the rule. I’m not sure Yorkies count. I know they are CALLED Yorkshire Terriers, but they are well and truly toy dogs, and have a LOT morin common with the other toys than they do with the other terriers! Borders, Norwich and Norfolks are all laid back enough to be “just pets”. (Cairns too, for that matter, I just like the other three a bit more) Parson Russels and Fox Terriers both NEED a job. I think I would enjoy one, I think most Havanese pet owners would not.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Heather's said:


> I also have not been around a lot of breeds. I've only had had a Collie and Havanese. Our old groomer said she could have 10 Norwich terriers! 😮 My friend had a darling Westie who recently passed, but so many medical issues. I'm definitely a Havanese person!


My brother had three collies. They were lovely dogs, but all died young. And Westies are nice dogs too, but full of health problems too.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

krandall said:


> My brother had three collies. They were lovely dogs, but all died young. And Westies are nice dogs too, but full of health problems too.


I was eighteen when I saw a three month old collie in a cage at a mall pet store. It looked so sad and I had to take it home. Shasta was my first dog. She liked to escape! Unfortunately she only lived four years. 😢 My friend went through a lot of difficult times with her Westie, but that's still her breed of choice.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Heather's said:


> I was eighteen when I saw a three month old collie in a cage at a mall pet store. It looked so sad and I had to take it home. Shasta was my first dog. She liked to escape! Unfortunately she only lived four years. 😢 My friend went through a lot of difficult times with her Westie, but that's still her breed of choice.


My sister in law has an 8 year old Westie. He is healthy so far. I think he may have a few allergies which is not uncommon. My husband’s aunt has always had Cairn terriers. The last two they had came from the same line, however one was super hyper and sort of crazy. The other one was not. The crazy one is the one who bit the groomer and was put down (I told this story in another thread). He was four years old. I am sure there are always exceptions to the rule. It is amazing though that many people I know who are in love with their “chosen breed” have had very limited exposure to any other breed. I can see how this can happen! I guess it is great there are so many breeds…something for everyone.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> My sister in law has an 8 year old Westie. He is healthy so far. I think he may have a few allergies which is not uncommon. My husband’s aunt has always had Cairn terriers. The last two they had came from the same line, however one was super hyper and sort of crazy. The other one was not. The crazy one is the one who bit the groomer and was put down (I told this story in another thread). He was four years old. I am sure there are always exceptions to the rule. It is amazing though that many people I know who are in love with their “chosen breed” have had very limited exposure to any other breed. I can see how this can happen! I guess it is great there are so many breeds…something for everyone.


I guess those of us who are involved in dog sports have the opportunity to be exposed to many different breeds, and usually the best example, if they have the disposition to be out in public, interacting with people and performing with their owners, I see so many charming breeds! Another breed I adore, but would never own because I don’t think I could handle a dog of that size is the Giant Schnauzer. I adore the ones I’ve met!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> I guess those of us who are involved in dog sports have the opportunity to be exposed to many different breeds, and usually the best example, if they have the disposition to be out in public, interacting with people and performing with their owners, I see so many charming breeds! Another breed I adore, but would never own because I don’t think I could handle a dog of that size is the Giant Schnauzer. I adore the ones I’ve met!


This is a great point. My exposure is limited to dogs friends and relatives. Not a very good “sample”. But it is interesting that a couple dogs of the same breed and line can be very different. In addition to the Cairn terrier example, a friend of mine has a Shiba Inu. We used to walk our dogs every morning together. That dog was awesome. Great personality. No grooming required either except he is a heavy shedder. Her daughter got a Shiba Inu from the same breeder and I believe the same sire. The dog is neurotic and anxious.

One thing that is sad is when people get dogs of a breed and then they do not use them for what they are intended. For example my in laws got a working dog intending to use it for working their cattle. I don’t think they realized the training necessary and made it a pet instead. The dog was not happy and his behavior reflected it. I do not blame the dog for it.

i don’t know if I could handle a big dog…but don’t tell anyone…I have a weakness for Rhodesian Ridgebacks.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> This is a great point. My exposure is limited to dogs friends and relatives. Not a very good “sample”. But it is interesting that a couple dogs of the same breed and line can be very different. In addition to the Cairn terrier example, a friend of mine has a Shiba Inu. We used to walk our dogs every morning together. That dog was awesome. Great personality. No grooming required either except he is a heavy shedder. Her daughter got a Shiba Inu from the same breeder and I believe the same sire. The dog is neurotic and anxious.
> 
> One thing that is sad is when people get dogs of a breed and then they do not use them for what they are intended. For example my in laws got a working dog intending to use it for working their cattle. I don’t think they realized the training necessary and made it a pet instead. The dog was not happy and his behavior reflected it. I do not blame the dog for it.
> 
> i don’t know if I could handle a big dog…but don’t tell anyone…I have a weakness for Rhodesian Ridgebacks.



I've met some nice Rhodies... But they can be very high spirited... and have a mind of their own! LOL! And cattle dogs? That's a breed that people either love or want no part of! They are GREAT workers, and tremendously attached to there OWN people. And don't want much to do with anyone else!I don't think you'll find many "ACD therapy dogs" LOL!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> I've met some nice Rhodies... But they can be very high spirited... and have a mind of their own! LOL! And cattle dogs? That's a breed that people either love or want no part of! They are GREAT workers, and tremendously attached to there OWN people. And don't want much to do with anyone else!I don't think you'll find many "ACD therapy dogs" LOL!


I am fairly certain I am incapable of training a Rhodesian Ridgeback properly so I will not be getting one! I think they are absolutely gorgeous and look like gentle giants if raised properly. I know for sure I would not want to raw feed one!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> I am fairly certain I am incapable of training a Rhodesian Ridgeback properly so I will not be getting one! I think they are absolutely gorgeous and look like gentle giants if raised properly. I know for sure I would not want to raw feed one!!!



I don't know about the "gentle giant" part... The ones I've known have been perfectly friendly but a bit on the crazy side. After all, they were bred to hunt lions! LOTS of energy!


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## KristenC (Sep 20, 2021)

When I was researching dogs.... I also considered a Coton.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KristenC said:


> When I was researching dogs.... I also considered a Coton.


I did too. It was one phenomenal Canadian agility Havanese that tipped the balance toward Havanese for me, plus colors!!! Now that I know both breeds better, I’m really glad I went in the direction I did!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

KristenC said:


> When I was researching dogs.... I also considered a Coton.


I did, too. We knew two families with Cotons but knew no one with a Havanese. I don’t remember if we eliminated Coton or Bolognese because of the cost, both might have been more expensive at the time. In one way or another, every breed in the same family was recommended to us by someone or another based on what we were looking for. We eliminated one or two based on coat maintenance, which is kind of funny to me now. I think there’s probably individual variation in coats that make them more or less maintenance just like Havanese. I’ve also come to believe that Havanese aren’t as high maintenance as they seem, and I now wonder if the same is true of other breeds. And to me, coat maintenance is a lot less demanding than the needs of some other breeds, such as the exercise requirements of extremely active, large dogs (like the husky DD desperately wanted).


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

mudpuppymama said:


> I am fairly certain I am incapable of training a Rhodesian Ridgeback properly so I will not be getting one! I think they are absolutely gorgeous and look like gentle giants if raised properly. I know for sure I would not want to raw feed one!!!


I am a huge sucker for giant breeds, especially Mastiffs… we have a lot of Ridgebacks in our area, and they’re gorgeous (but do seem very high energy!) I don’t think I could ever have a giant breed because of the life expectancy, the shedding (I weirdly have the worst allergies to short-haired dogs), and the drool, but i do love admiring those big squishy heads!! JoJo met an enormous Great Dane a few weeks back, and she had NO idea what it was…. I swear his head was 3x the size of her!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I did, too. We knew two families with Cotons but knew no one with a Havanese. I don’t remember if we eliminated Coton or Bolognese because of the cost, both might have been more expensive at the time. In one way or another, every breed in the same family was recommended to us by someone or another based on what we were looking for. We eliminated one or two based on coat maintenance, which is kind of funny to me now. I think there’s probably individual variation in coats that make them more or less maintenance just like Havanese. I’ve also come to believe that Havanese aren’t as high maintenance as they seem, and I now wonder if the same is true of other breeds. And to me, coat maintenance is a lot less demanding than the needs of some other breeds, such as the exercise requirements of extremely active, large dogs (like the husky DD desperately wanted).


I think, from what I have heard from people who own both, Cotons are more grooming-intensive, and Bolonkas are less. I don’t know any Bolonese owners.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

krandall said:


> I think, from what I have heard from people who own both, Cotons are more grooming-intensive, and Bolonkas are less. I don’t know any Bolonese owners.


That’s helpful to hear. I have read the same, that Bolonkas don’t have the dense coats like some Havanese, and Cotons require a little more grooming, and Bolognese can be hard to groom, but I’ve never known anyone who had one of them and a Havanese to ask in person. Considering I read such mixed information on Havanese grooming before we got ours, I think some of it must be subjective. Last I checked, the AKC site still says that Havanese only need to be brushed or combed once a week! Which is sometimes true, especially of adults, but the average experience of a Havanese owner can vary wildly, since coats that still fall within the standard can vary, owner preferences can vary, length can vary. I don’t think I would make a decision about a breed based on coat maintenance in the future.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> That’s helpful to hear. I have read the same, that Bolonkas don’t have the dense coats like some Havanese, and Cotons require a little more grooming, and Bolognese can be hard to groom, but I’ve never known anyone who had one of them and a Havanese to ask in person. Considering I read such mixed information on Havanese grooming before we got ours, I think some of it must be subjective. Last I checked, the AKC site still says that Havanese only need to be brushed or combed once a week! Which is sometimes true, especially of adults, but the average experience of a Havanese owner can vary wildly, since coats that still fall within the standard can vary, owner preferences can vary, length can vary. I don’t think I would make a decision about a breed based on coat maintenance in the future.



There is so much wildly incorrect information on breeds on the AKC website that I would never send ANYONE there for breed information, quite frankly!


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## Mech (Apr 4, 2019)

destiny said:


> Hello,
> 
> My PERFECT dog, a Havanese, passed away this past November from cancer. I decided not to get a Havanese for two reasons, one, he was very special, and I don't want to compare and two, I noticed with little dogs you have to pick them up a lot. For instance, to get in the car, on a table at the vet's office and sometimes if you take too long of a walk or carrying them in a carrier through the airport. My back sometimes bothers me so I have decided to get a smaller breed, perhaps a Pomeranian, longhaired Chihuahua or Maltese. I am looking for a dog around seven pounds so not super tiny but definitely smaller than most Havanese. Does anyone have experience with any of these breeds or have a breed recommendation for me. My Havanese was a certified therapy dog which I would love to continue with and also, competed in rally which we did together for fun. My Havanese was so well behaved he was a welcome guest on planes, in hotels and at restaurants and stores, he went everywhere with us. He was quiet, like any dog, he would bark if someone rang the bell, he was calm, easy going and so easy to train. He wanted to please me and loved praise and treats. I am looking for a smaller dog with the Havanese outgoing temperament. Any suggestions?
> Thank you,
> ...


I understand I am in much the same situation. I lost my Havanese last Oct. He was 9 lbs. I want another Havanese but on the small end of the standard 7 lbs. It is very hard to find and many breeders get mad. I am a 70 year old active woman for now. I hike and want to be able to put my Havanese in a back pack when it is tired. Currently it seems many Havanese are oversized. I was taking care of my daughter's dog while she was away (not a Havanese) and he was 15 pounds and I could carry him only a couple of minutes. I like small dogs to cuddle with. When I am no longer active I would be able to play fetch inside for my fur baby.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Mech said:


> I understand I am in much the same situation. I lost my Havanese last Oct. He was 9 lbs. I want another Havanese but on the small end of the standard 7 lbs. It is very hard to find and many breeders get mad. I am a 70 year old active woman for now. I hike and want to be able to put my Havanese in a back pack when it is tired. Currently it seems many Havanese are oversized. I was taking care of my daughter's dog while she was away (not a Havanese) and he was 15 pounds and I could carry him only a couple of minutes. I like small dogs to cuddle with. When I am no longer active I would be able to play fetch inside for my fur baby.


Expecting a breeder to guarantee the exact weight of an adult dog is unrealistic and I can see why they would be fearful of selling one of their precious pups to someone who felt this way. If weight is that important I would look for an adult dog so you know exactly how much it will weigh. You could also look at smaller dog breeds, however that is really no sure fire guarantee either. I have a ten pound yorkie who doesn’t have an ounce of fat on him. Another option is a larger dog who would not require picking up and would not poop out on long hikes.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mech said:


> I understand I am in much the same situation. I lost my Havanese last Oct. He was 9 lbs. I want another Havanese but on the small end of the standard 7 lbs. It is very hard to find and many breeders get mad. I am a 70 year old active woman for now. I hike and want to be able to put my Havanese in a back pack when it is tired. Currently it seems many Havanese are oversized. I was taking care of my daughter's dog while she was away (not a Havanese) and he was 15 pounds and I could carry him only a couple of minutes. I like small dogs to cuddle with. When I am no longer active I would be able to play fetch inside for my fur baby.


While there are oversized pet dogs around in ANY breed, I think there are less oversized Havanese around now than there were 10 or 15 years ago. 7 lbs is actually on the EXTREME end of tininess for Havanese, and unless you are talking about hiking the Appalachian trail, any sound, healthy Havanese should be able to hike on his own little feet just as far as you can, without being carried. Here are some photos of our 17 lb Kodi, who has hiked with us up and down mountains from Canada to Georgia. As has his little 9 1/2 lb sister. Neither one of them has EVER been carried a step except when boulders were actually to big for them to climb, in which case, they have been lifted over and placed back on the ground to continue on their own.


























No good breeder is going to guarantee you that a puppy will be 7 lbs because that, honestly, is not what any good breeder is breeding for. It is too small for our breed. If a breeder is purposely breeding for that small, they are going to get many who are under standard. Good breeders bred to produce as many dogs as possible IN standard. If you MUST have a Havanese that small, you are going to have to put the word out looking for a petite adult that a breeder is looking to rehome.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Expecting a breeder to guarantee the exact weight of an adult dog is unrealistic and I can see why they would be fearful of selling one of their precious pups to someone who felt this way. If weight is that important I would look for an adult dog so you know exactly how much it will weigh. You could also look at smaller dog breeds, however that is really no sure fire guarantee either. I have a ten pound yorkie who doesn’t have an ounce of fat on him. Another option is a larger dog who would not require picking up and would not poop out on long hikes.


I have an under 10 lb’er and she has NEVER “pooped out” on a hike. I think this has more to do with fitness, soundness and attitude. You can stack the deck in terms of soundness by picking a good breeder. Fitness is on the owner. Attitude? Just as with children, we HOPE that the dog will like the games we want them to like, but we can’t MAKE them like what we want them to. You have mentioned that your Yorkie loves long walks, and Mia does not. Fortunately, ALL my Havanese LOVE to walk, but I have heard of a few Havanese on the forum who don’t . So they do exist! I don’t think you can force it..,


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> I have an under 10 lb’er and she has NEVER “pooped out” on a hike. I think this has more to do with fitness, soundness and attitude. You can stack the deck in terms of soundness by picking a good breeder. Fitness is on the owner. Attitude? Just as with children, we HOPE that the dog will like the games we want them to like, but we can’t MAKE them like what we want them to. You have mentioned that your Yorkie loves long walks, and Mia does not. Fortunately, ALL my Havanese LOVE to walk, but I have heard of a few Havanese on the forum who don’t . So they do exist! I don’t think you can force it..,


Yes that is a good point. Mia loves walking and hiking but not in the same boring neighborhood over and over. She loves walking on trails and new territories. I am talking about walking every single day multiple times around the same small neighborhood. The yorkie does not care but Mia does. It has nothing to do with pooping out. I think she just gets bored and wants something more exciting. It has nothing to do with her being in shape really because she will run and play no issue. Mia also dislikes heat and humidity more than the yorkie. Regardless, some dogs may be more into walking than others, depending on the circumstances. And I agree…this cannot be forced. They could slow down as they age as well…i think it is bad to be dependent on a dog for our exercise. Another option for the owner is to get stronger so she can lift more. Lifting 15 pounds should not be that big of an effort.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Regardless, some dogs may be more into walking than others, depending on the circumstances. And I agree…this cannot be forced. They could slow down as they age as well…i think it is bad to be dependent on a dog for our exercise.


Alas, this is true. Kodi, since his injury, and with his eye problems, is not up to long distance hiking. But he is closing in on 14. Alas, dogs are not as long-lived as we are. That is something we have to deal with! But then, Dave isn't up to much hiking these days either! The younger dogs are all up to as much as I want to do with them!



mudpuppymama said:


> Another option for the owner is to get stronger so she can lift more. Lifting 15 pounds should not be that big of an effort.


Well, I wouldn't want to put that on anybody. I am capable of walking long distances, especially if I use my hiking poles. But between my RA and back problems, I could NOT carry 15 or even 7 lb dog on my back on a regular basis. Would I do it if my dog got in trouble on a hike and there was no other option? Of course! But if my dog was either not capable or not willing to hike the distances I wanted to hike, I would plan shorter hikes that I could enjoy with my dog, and leave my dog home for the longer hikes and enjoy them alone or with a friend, unencumbered by the dog. I am quite sure the dog would rather be home that stuffed in a back pack in any case.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> Alas, this is true. Kodi, since his injury, and with his eye problems, is not up to long distance hiking. But he is closing in on 14. Alas, dogs are not as long-lived as we are. That is something we have to deal with! But then, Dave isn't up to much hiking these days either! The younger dogs are all up to as much as I want to do with them!
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I wouldn't want to put that on anybody. I am capable of walking long distances, especially if I use my hiking poles. But between my RA and back problems, I could NOT carry 15 or even 7 lb dog on my back on a regular basis. Would I do it if my dog got in trouble on a hike and there was no other option? Of course! But if my dog was either not capable or not willing to hike the distances I wanted to hike, I would plan shorter hikes that I could enjoy with my dog, and leave my dog home for the longer hikes and enjoy them alone or with a friend, unencumbered by the dog. I am quite sure the dog would rather be home that stuffed in a back pack in any case.


As far as getting stronger, I was thinking of this for just occasional pickups as necessary (ie putting them on grooming table), NOT for hiking with them on my back! This way the owner would not have to worry about a bigger dog. Some people do have physical limitations, however I am 68 and just started deadlifting a few years ago. Older people can get stronger.

I agree…if the dog cannot keep up, shorter walks may be necessary, or a stroller. Or just leave them at home. I don’t think a dog would be too comfortable in a backpack. And I would be miserable with a dog on my back, not just due to its weight.

I wonder how many dogs are really enjoying frantically keeping up with their owners leashed to their bikes. Not quite the same thing but seems somewhat related. Sometimes dogs are happier at home.


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## Mech (Apr 4, 2019)

mudpuppymama said:


> Expecting a breeder to guarantee the exact weight of an adult dog is unrealistic and I can see why they would be fearful of selling one of their precious pups to someone who felt this way. If weight is that important I would look for an adult dog so you know exactly how much it will weigh. You could also look at smaller dog breeds, however that is really no sure fire guarantee either. I have a ten pound yorkie who doesn’t have an ounce of fat on him. Another option is a larger dog who would not require picking up and would not poop out on long hikes.


I'm not asking any breeder to guarantee size. Just a guess on a smaller size like under 10 pounds. Many breeders are breeding oversized Havanese. I love Havanese and I am not interested in another breed. I have had larger dogs too for the hiking experience. My bearded collie that I loved but in 2015 he needed to be picked up the last year of his life and I could not do it. My other daughter has a 11 year old, 50 lb bulldog that was in my care while she was moving just a month ago. I could not lift it but I did and hurt my back getting her to the vet. I have many friends as they get older can't handle bigger dogs sorry some us lose strength. I will never have another dog that I can't pick up and an older Havanese would be fine. I find it devastating not to be able to help my dog and for me that is what a large dog means.


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## Mech (Apr 4, 2019)

krandall said:


> I have an under 10 lb’er and she has NEVER “pooped out” on a hike. I think this has more to do with fitness, soundness and attitude. You can stack the deck in terms of soundness by picking a good breeder. Fitness is on the owner. Attitude? Just as with children, we HOPE that the dog will like the games we want them to like, but we can’t MAKE them like what we want them to. You have mentioned that your Yorkie loves long walks, and Mia does not. Fortunately, ALL my Havanese LOVE to walk, but I have heard of a few Havanese on the forum who don’t . So they do exist! I don’t think you can force it..,


Well I live at 9500 feet so I am definitely in the mountains. My last Havanese did love to hike for sure. He would "poop out" about the 3 mile mark. I did not think it was fair to make him go longer. He loved the doggie backpack when he was tired. I walk 6 miles a day for now (who knows how long I will be able do that but would like to continue as long a possible).


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

Mech said:


> I'm not asking any breeder to guarantee size. Just a guess on a smaller size like under 10 pounds. Many breeders are breeding oversized Havanese. I love Havanese and I am not interested in another breed. I have had larger dogs too for the hiking experience. My bearded collie that I loved but in 2015 he needed to be picked up the last year of his life and I could not do it. My other daughter has a 11 year old, 50 lb bulldog that was in my care while she was moving just a month ago. I could not lift it but I did and hurt my back getting her to the vet. I have many friends as they get older can't handle bigger dogs sorry some us lose strength. I will never have another dog that I can't pick up and an older Havanese would be fine. I find it devastating not to be able to help my dog and for me that is what a large dog means.


I always joke that we don’t do ‘average’ size Havanese in this house— just XL and XS. My 10 year old boy is about 17.5 lbs, and my year and a half old girl is just shy of 9 lbs. Her breeder did say she thought she’d be small, but that was an unusual situation— mom had 10 puppies, so not surprising that a few of them were on the smaller side. She’s within standard for height, but very fine boned, which isn’t as preferred in the standard as I understand it. 

Are you opposed to getting an older puppy or adult? That would be a way of being very sure! Otherwise, I’m sure you _could_ get a small one from a reputable breeder, like I did, but I know she wouldn’t have made any guesses about adult size until the puppies were old enough to see structure, and she actually thought our girl might be even smaller than she turned out. 


I’d be wary of anyone breeding specifically for smaller Havs, bc then they’re not focusing on critical elements of the dog’s structure (not unlike people who are just breeding for a particular color). If you let breeders know that you are patient, and would be interested in a small puppy or adult if one comes along that is a good match for you in other ways, even if it takes a while, I think they might be more receptive to that. My experience with good breeders is that they want to match the puppy to you based on temperament and lifestyle, and not JUST on physical attributes like coat color or size. My little girl for example is a huge athlete. She’s small, but very independent so doesn’t particularly LIKE being carried around, and she needs a lot of exercise and stimulation. The more excitement, the better! Our breeder knew that we go to the beach a lot, out on hikes, etc, and that I was interested in considering agility, so it was a good match on that front first and foremost.


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## Mech (Apr 4, 2019)

Mech said:


> Well I live at 9500 feet so I am definitely in the mountains. My last Havanese did love to hike for sure. He would "poop out" about the 3 mile mark. I did not think it was fair to make him go longer. He loved the doggie backpack when he was tired. I walk 6 miles a day for now (who knows how long I will be able do that but would like to continue as long a possible).


If I lived in the city or burbs a stroller would work. I do work with weights in my fitness routine. I am 70 years old and I am a former professional ballet dancer so I understand fitness. I also have injuries from that profession. Few people my age can keep up with me. I feel attacked guys. I'm sorry that I offended you. If i wanted an oversize dog you all would be cheering me on. Breeders should not be breeding for undersize or oversized dogs but it does happen when they breed for the standard. My bearded collie was going to a show home but his testicles did not drop by 7 weeks and that was the only reason I got this amazing gorgeous dog.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> As far as getting stronger, I was thinking of this for just occasional pickups as necessary (ie putting them on grooming table), NOT for hiking with them on my back! This way the owner would not have to worry about a bigger dog. Some people do have physical limitations, however I am 68 and just started deadlifting a few years ago. Older people can get stronger.
> 
> I agree…if the dog cannot keep up, shorter walks may be necessary, or a stroller. Or just leave them at home. I don’t think a dog would be too comfortable in a backpack. And I would be miserable with a dog on my back, not just due to its weight.
> 
> I wonder how many dogs are really enjoying frantically keeping up with their owners leashed to their bikes. Not quite the same thing but seems somewhat related. Sometimes dogs are happier at home.


I know some dogs LOVE to run, and a bike is the only way their owner can keep up. That is NOT appropriate for Havanese! LOL!
But yes, I was not referring to picking the dogs up casually around the house. I was talking about toting them on my back. Can’t/ won’t do that unless it’s an emergency!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mech said:


> I'm not asking any breeder to guarantee size. Just a guess on a smaller size like under 10 pounds. Many breeders are breeding oversized Havanese.


I don’t know where you are getting this information. I know MANY breeders and I don’t know ANY reputable breeders who are purposely or regularly producing oversized Havanese. (And, of course, our standard HAS no weight limits on either end!) I think it was about a year ago that someone did a survey on the forum on the weights of Havanese owned by forum members, and there weren‘t many over 16 or 17 lbs…. And a 16 or 17 lb Havanese is NOT going to be over standard. It might be bigger than you like, but it is not likely to be over standard, which is 11 1/2” at the shoulder.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Mech said:


> I'm not asking any breeder to guarantee size. Just a guess on a smaller size like under 10 pounds. Many breeders are breeding oversized Havanese. I love Havanese and I am not interested in another breed. I have had larger dogs too for the hiking experience. My bearded collie that I loved but in 2015 he needed to be picked up the last year of his life and I could not do it. My other daughter has a 11 year old, 50 lb bulldog that was in my care while she was moving just a month ago. I could not lift it but I did and hurt my back getting her to the vet. I have many friends as they get older can't handle bigger dogs sorry some us lose strength. I will never have another dog that I can't pick up and an older Havanese would be fine. I find it devastating not to be able to help my dog and for me that is what a large dog means.


I have never had a big dog. It does sound concerning about having to pick one up for an emergency situation. I do not consider any Havanese to be too big to pick up for emergencies.

If you are really set on a Havanese, you may have to accept the fact it could be over 10 pounds and decide if you can live with that. Will you be unhappy? Will you rehome the dog? How important is this to you?

I can understand why a breeder would not want to make educated guesses on final weight because it is still just a GUESS. These are living creatures and not mass produced machines. The breeder may be concerned what may happen to the dog if it turns out to be bigger than the estimate. Perhaps YOU could make the guess yourself based upon the parents size. I would not expect the breeder to make it. And hopefully you will accept the dog unconditionally even if your guess is wrong.


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## Mech (Apr 4, 2019)

krandall said:


> I don’t know where you are getting this information. I know MANY breeders and I don’t know ANY reputable breeders who are purposely or regularly producing oversized Havanese. (And, of course, our standard HAS no weight limits on either end!) I think it was about a year ago that someone did a survey on the forum on the weights of Havanese owned by forum members, and there weren‘t many over 16 or 17 lbs…. And a 16 or 17 lb Havanese is NOT going to be over standard. It might be bigger than you like, but it is not likely to be over standard, which is 11 1/2” at the shoulder.





mudpuppymama said:


> I have never had a big dog. It does sound concerning about having to pick one up for an emergency situation. I do not consider any Havanese to be too big to pick up for emergencies.
> 
> If you are really set on a Havanese, you may have to accept the fact it could be over 10 pounds and decide if you can live with that. Will you be unhappy? Will you rehome the dog? How important is this to you?
> 
> I can understand why a breeder would not want to make educated guesses on final weight because it is still just a GUESS. These are living creatures and not mass produced machines. The breeder may be concerned what may happen to the dog if it turns out to be bigger than the estimate. Perhaps YOU could make the guess yourself based upon the parents size. I would not expect the breeder to make it. And hopefully you will accept the dog unconditionally even if your guess is wrong.


I have NEVER rehomed a dog in my life. I consider it a lifetime commitment. Most show breeders know their lines very well and some of them are working with me. I am looking for a dog that my lifestyle and the pups will work well. I can wait too although sometimes I get impatient. It is mostly the non show people that are upset with my questions like size and size of parents, color, temperament. My experience is that show breeders want the very best fit for you and their dog. My bearded collie breeder was the first to go to group at Westminster. She showed and bred Havanese when she got older and that is how learned of the Havanese. She belonged to Havanese Club of America and I don't think she is alive now.


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## Mech (Apr 4, 2019)

krandall said:


> I don’t know where you are getting this information. I know MANY breeders and I don’t know ANY reputable breeders who are purposely or regularly producing oversized Havanese. (And, of course, our standard HAS no weight limits on either end!) I think it was about a year ago that someone did a survey on the forum on the weights of Havanese owned by forum members, and there weren‘t many over 16 or 17 lbs…. And a 16 or 17 lb Havanese is NOT going to be over standard. It might be bigger than you like, but it is not likely to be over standard, which is 11 1/2” at the shoulder.





krandall said:


> I don’t know where you are getting this information. I know MANY breeders and I don’t know ANY reputable breeders who are purposely or regularly producing oversized Havanese. (And, of course, our standard HAS no weight limits on either end!) I think it was about a year ago that someone did a survey on the forum on the weights of Havanese owned by forum members, and there weren‘t many over 16 or 17 lbs…. And a 16 or 17 lb Havanese is NOT going to be over standard. It might be bigger than you like, but it is not likely to be over standard, which is 11 1/2” at the shoulder.


Yep, acceptable height range from 8½ to 11½ inches- below and over that disqualified. Suggested but not a requirement 7-13 lbs.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mech said:


> Yep, acceptable height range from 8½ to 11½ inches- below and over that disqualified. Suggested but not a requirement 7-13 lbs.


There is no "suggested" weight range in the standard.

I am glad you are working with some more reputable breeders. I assume that's what you mean by "show" breeders, though there are show breeders that I wouldn't consider totally reputable either.  But it's a place to start. At least they are unlikely to be shooting for dogs that are outside the standard in terms of size.

A good friend of mine used to breed Beardies and now breeds Havanese! Her last Beardie had to be put to sleep with a brain tumor last week. She was a great dog.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> I have an under 10 lb’er and she has NEVER “pooped out” on a hike. I think this has more to do with fitness, soundness and attitude. You can stack the deck in terms of soundness by picking a good breeder. Fitness is on the owner. Attitude? Just as with children, we HOPE that the dog will like the games we want them to like, but we can’t MAKE them like what we want them to. You have mentioned that your Yorkie loves long walks, and Mia does not. Fortunately, ALL my Havanese LOVE to walk, but I have heard of a few Havanese on the forum who don’t . So they do exist! I don’t think you can force it..,


The only time Perry "pooped out" on a long walk was once in DC when were spent the whole day walking the city not fast walking - and after about 5 hours it started raining. We stopped for a coffee to get out of the rain and at that point Perry was done - he fell asleep in my lap and he was perfectly happy to be in his sling for the rest of the trip (though most of it was getting an uber and moving into the hotel.) He was perfectly happy up to that point.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> The only time Perry "pooped out" on a long walk was once in DC when were spent the whole day walking the city not fast walking - and after about 5 hours it started raining. We stopped for a coffee to get out of the rain and at that point Perry was done - he fell asleep in my lap and he was perfectly happy to be in his sling for the rest of the trip (though most of it was getting an uber and moving into the hotel.) He was perfectly happy up to that point.


Yhat would be a long time for any dog! I’d probably want to be carried by then too! LOL!


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## anna7 (4 mo ago)

I hear you. My 2 Havanese are service dogs or to be, one in training. My first Havanese is 7.2 lbs. Her parents were 6 lbs and 7 lbs according to her breeder. My now 18 month old puppy is 7.8 lbs already. Her parents were 7 lbs and 8 lbs but Molly will be significantly heavier. I did meet and see Molly's parents and she looks just like them but will be bigger. I am on a weight lifting limit. I told Molly she will need to learn to jump up herself. From the dogs you mentioned, I think the Maltese might be the closest option. You might also be patient and see if there is a Maltese/Havanese puppy that becomes available. People often think Nina 7.2 lbs is a Maltese mix because of her size. I would not get a Maltipoo because they seem to get significantly bigger and are more active. Also have you considered getting a dog stroller, sling or carrier? But like others mentioned my 7 lbs Nina at 11 yrs old out walks, out hikes and out runs me any day.


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## HavaneseMe (9 mo ago)

anna7 said:


> My now 18 month old puppy is 7.8 lbs already. Her parents were 7 lbs and 8 lbs but Molly will be significantly


I’m guessing you meant to say 18_ weeks_, not months, right?


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

destiny said:


> Hello,
> 
> My PERFECT dog, a Havanese, passed away this past November from cancer. I decided not to get a Havanese for two reasons, one, he was very special, and I don't want to compare and two, I noticed with little dogs you have to pick them up a lot. For instance, to get in the car, on a table at the vet's office and sometimes if you take too long of a walk or carrying them in a carrier through the airport. My back sometimes bothers me so I have decided to get a smaller breed, perhaps a Pomeranian, longhaired Chihuahua or Maltese. I am looking for a dog around seven pounds so not super tiny but definitely smaller than most Havanese. Does anyone have experience with any of these breeds or have a breed recommendation for me. My Havanese was a certified therapy dog which I would love to continue with and also, competed in rally which we did together for fun. My Havanese was so well behaved he was a welcome guest on planes, in hotels and at restaurants and stores, he went everywhere with us. He was quiet, like any dog, he would bark if someone rang the bell, he was calm, easy going and so easy to train. He wanted to please me and loved praise and treats. I am looking for a smaller dog with the Havanese outgoing temperament. Any suggestions?
> Thank you,
> ...


I had three poodles during the years and the last one was my “heart” dog. She knew what I wanted her to do before I did! Their coats are easier than a Havanese but a puppy or young one has a lot of energy. I am much older now and if I got another dog it would be an older Poodle. You can get smaller ones that aren’t as heavy which is an issue for my bad back.


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

Mech said:


> I'm not asking any breeder to guarantee size. Just a guess on a smaller size like under 10 pounds. Many breeders are breeding oversized Havanese. I love Havanese and I am not interested in another breed. I have had larger dogs too for the hiking experience. My bearded collie that I loved but in 2015 he needed to be picked up the last year of his life and I could not do it. My other daughter has a 11 year old, 50 lb bulldog that was in my care while she was moving just a month ago. I could not lift it but I did and hurt my back getting her to the vet. I have many friends as they get older can't handle bigger dogs sorry some us lose strength. I will never have another dog that I can't pick up and an older Havanese would be fine. I find it devastating not to be able to help my dog and for me that is what a large dog means.


Just saw a puppy listed on HRI that is only 5lb at 10 months so made me think of this thread. I’m sure she’ll have a ton of interest in her but could be worth looking into! Luna in FL


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> Yhat would be a long time for any dog! I’d probably want to be carried by then too! LOL!


I know I did!


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