# HELP...Shock Collar Experience????????



## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

We are going to have to come up with a method of controlling Smarty on our property. We live in the middle of acreage, 1000+ feet off of a main road. We do have a gate at the end of the driveway, but with a little time she would figure the rock walls are only so long and could go around.

My problem: Smarty has decided it is fun to run to the end of the driveway, she has done this 3 times in the last week. I want her to have freedom, but once she starts the run towards the road she becomes deaf. I can’t correct her once she has turned around and is coming to me, because she is doing what we have asked her to do.

We have used a 30 foot thin cotton drag line, but she can get the far pretty fast. I hate the though of her always having to be on a leash when she is out. 

I do not want her to loose her freedom for chasing the squirrels, barn cats, leaves or anything else that makes her life so much fun, but my heart can not stand the runs to the road.

Has anyone ever used a shock collar on a small dog? Not the invisible fence, but just a collar. I would love any experienced feedback on anything that works.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

My cousin uses a shock collar on her two dogs, because they fight constantly. Not play fight, they actually make each other bleed. She gets good results with it. But, one of the dogs is going to another home.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I haven't but I would highly recommend you put the shock collar on your neck first. My friend has Cockers who are crazy bird dogs (even though they are gorgeous and don't look like it!) she got the shock collar as everyone told her that would work and she did it to herself (and then so did I because I thought she was being silly) and she never used it. My throat felt funny for over an hour- I had no idea how much it really gets you and I wonder how much it would get them with their tiny throats and sensitive trachea.

On the other hand I have heard people who use them all the time on dogs when they need control. I don't know if there are some that come with a sounds like a warning. I think the trick is you have to teach her boundaries for any method you use. So you may need some flags to say this is the no cross zone, etc. I would also do some heavy recall training because even with the collar on you want her to come back to you. You have to be bigger than the reward of say her chasing the squirrels.

I do let Dora and Belle offleash at parks, etc. And for the most part they are very good- great recalls, know leave it, and even leave people passing by alone (still have some issues with Belle- they can't say anything in a cute voice). I did have an issue with Dora breaking her flexi lead clip when suddenly jolting after a squirrel in a nice neighborhood- I thought one of their electric fences might get me! I thought I had great control over her until that point and that was a wake up reminder. But then she let me know she is a hunting Havanese! The **** squirrel went up the tree and then Dora came running back to me like hey mom you called! I had to contain myself to not yell at her and love her like crazy for coming back. That was probably a year ago so I think she has matured but then again there aren't many squirrels out here!

Keep us posted,
Amanda


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

thanks, Michele and Amanda, I should have added we have worked on her going no further than the bend in the driveway, and she does know basic obedience including come, we have to have a refesher course on that one. If we are away from home she will not get more than 10 feet from me. A true velcro dog.

The driveway situation is really worrying me, once she starts the RLH the is no stopping her.


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

I think Laurie might use one on her three with good results.

I know she uses something.

Hey Laurie, what is it that you use?


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## Janet Zee (Mar 16, 2007)

I believe Laurie has the invisible fence, the dogs wear a special collar that does give them a shock should they approach the fence border.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Janet is right, Laurie has the invisible fence around her property.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Sandi, I don't like shock collars, but I understand your concern. A jolt is much better than broken bones when hit by a car - or worse.

Having said that, I think you'll find it difficult to find one to fit Smarty. Most will not fit toy dogs.

Can you find a way to work on recalls? That 30-foot cotton line could be very useful for that training. With the immediate need being so important, can you put a good 15 to 30 minutes (30 may be too long) into working on this with her every day until she is much more reliable?


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## JanB (Oct 26, 2007)

We used to live on several acres and because of restrictions couldn't put up a fence. So we did use an invisible fence w/collar on our 16 # Sheltie. But truthfully, once she knew the boundaries we didn't even have to use the collar. We would put it on a couple times a year just as a reminder. It emitted a warning buzz and that was enough to keep her away from the boundary line. I'm not sure if she ever actually received a shock; if she did it was no more than one or two in the very beginning. She loved to run, chase wildlife (squirrels, deer, etc) but also wanted to chase cars, so the invisible fence was a necessity. She was very intelligent, obedient, and submissive so learned quickly and never tested it once she understood what it was. I understand bigger, more aggressive dogs will test the fence and can even run through it quickly.

I'm sure an invisible fence company could tell you the weight restrictions and if they have a lower voltage for a small dog.

We did what the company told us, put the flags up around the property line, walked it with her, and as she got close, we'd give the leash a tug with a sharp "NO!". You might try that first to see if it's enough for Smarty.

While it may seem "inhumane" it is better than being hit by a car, and I agree, it would be terribly sad to not give them the freedom to run in their own yard.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Yes you guys are right, I do use the invisible fence on my property and we love it. Yes my poor babies got a shock when they were training on it, but they know the boundries, and the second they hear the tone if they are close, they back up immediately. It is great for us. I am able to work outside and let them run around & not have to have my eyes on them every second. Sandi the shock collar might work for you, but the drawback I see is that you ALWAYS must have your eye on Smarty at ALL times. Now if you only have one that might not be hard, but with three, I cannot keep my eyes on all three at the same time. They LOVE squirrels, deer and anyone that walks by, and they always stop at the line. They never ever go thru, even if they were and inch away from the squirrels tail. I hope you are able to find what works best for you, as the most important thing is that Smarty is safe!


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Thank you every one, I'm going to call an invisible fence company tomorrow. I've been looking online for some kind that will work. No luck, most just seem too big for her.

Smarty is never, never out alone. We have too much wild life that might like her for dinner.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

It can be a real problem and how scary to know that it won't take much for many of our Havs to bolt after that tempting squirrel, car, bird or person walking by! We have a fence, but not in the front yard so they are always on a leash out front. It's not much fun, but our front yard is pretty tiny so there isnt' much running to do out there anyway. 

I have read of dogs bolting through an invisible fence in spite of a shock, so I guess it depends on the determination of the dog. lol

Good luck, Sandi!!


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

You are right Marj. I have heard that a lot of larger dogs run thru the fence. 
Lexi is the only one who ever ran thru the fence but I am pretty sure it was because she runs so fast, was chasing something, but she stayed right on the sidewalk & waited for us to come get her. I personally think it was the best solution for our acre of land. Maybe not for all, but with three dogs, I had to do something - and could not keep everyone on a leash!! My dogs love to be free to run around without having to be confined by a leash. I hope you find the right solution for Smarty!


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

marjrc said:


> I have read of dogs bolting through an invisible fence in spite of a shock, so I guess it depends on the determination of the dog. lol
> 
> Good luck, Sandi!!


I had one for my lab when I first moved here, other dogs would come in and she would go out with them. I guess she felt the shock was worth it to go with the other dogs. She would stay in otherwise. I decided to go ahead and fence my backyard before I got the havs. I do have a large yard, so it really makes it nice to be able to let them out to play without the worry. I would think dogs like labs wouldn't be as affected by it.

I do know someone who has it for a german shepherd and he never leaves the yard and is out all the time. So I guess each dog is different.

Axl is pretty stubborn.


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

I know I have mentioned this before and don't want to repeat myself..........But my sister-in-law has an invisible fence for her Hav and it works well. They cannot put up a regular fence in their development.

The brand is Innotech and she laid the wiring herself. It is compatiable with an in house system to keep them in one area in your house or correct bad behavior (like jumping on the kitchen table). LOL The in house system is portable if you travel to friends or relatives homes.

Innotech is online but I noticed their website is down right now. 

We are planning to put in ours in the Spring.


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Again thanks for the info, I will check on the Innotech. Please don't think we do not have any fencing. We have 10 acres fenced and cross fenced with chain link & wood boards for the horses. Due to the hay, shavings and such Smarty has not been allowed in those areas. Her coat is hard enough to keep without all of that in it.

My DH and I walked the front and around the house area this afternoon and think we have the area worked out for the invisible fence. She will have to wear a collar all the time.

Yesterday I stopped for gas and saw this blur go by me, it was Smarty she had got out as I did and was so quiet I didn’t even notice. Luckily she came right to me. With that happening yesterday and her going to the street today I have been a nervous wreck thinking of what could have happened.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Rita is right, they do have an inside one, I have invisible fence but also have one in my house as well as outside. My formal living room has all my plant in it during the winters & I found that the pups were nibbling, so I had them install a portable one over the threshold of the living room, and my dogs are great, they just sit outside the threshold. I think that because the Havs are so smart they learn quickly and these work well with them.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Sandi, that must have been so frightening, I am glad you are considering the fence!


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Oh my gosh, Sandi. That's two scares way too close together!

Invisible fences definitely have their place and can be a huge asset when you are out there with your dog(s). The problem is when people leave their dogs out unattended, thinking the invisible fence is a security for them and it isn't. The fencing doesn't stop people or predators from entering the yard. (In the case of the coyote topic, this option would be horrible.) Lastly, a dog can bolt through the shock area if they are truly focused on something. If they really know the boundaries, they may even be afraid to cross back over it to get back into their yard.

This isn't for you Sandi, Laurie or Rita. I just wanted to post it because inevitably someone will pull this topic out of the archives down the road and consider getting one without thinking through the downsides. Laurie, I'm glad you posted that someone must keep their eye on the dog at all times. That's the key to making it work.


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

Here is the website. http://www.innotek.com/

I know some people don't like the invisible fence because batteries die etc but in some areas like a development they won't let you have a regular fence. Actually, every house in my sister-in laws neighborhood has one. It is pretty funny when you go for a walk and all the dogs come to the line to bark. LOL The innotek system has an alarm that sounds to let you know the battery must be charged.

We have a fence too but it goes around our inground pool. I would like an area separate from that because I know people who had their dog drown after running over the pool cover. I don't want to extend the fence for that reason because kids and animals can still fall on the cover of the pool.


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

Havtahava said:


> Oh my gosh, Sandi. That's two scares way too close together!
> 
> Invisible fences definitely have their place and can be a huge asset when you are out there with your dog(s). The problem is when people leave their dogs out unattended, thinking the invisible fence is a security for them and it isn't. The fencing doesn't stop people or predators from entering the yard. (In the case of the coyote topic, this option would be horrible.) Lastly, a dog can bolt through the shock area if they are truly focused on something. If they really know the boundaries, they may even be afraid to cross back over it to get back into their yard.


Kimberly, yes you are right. Monitoring is important even with a regular fence. This goes for both dogs and children. You won't believe the people I have seen even with a regular fence that leave both unattended for extended periods of time. :frusty: Fences are not a doggy sitting or baby sitting service.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

I agree Kimberly, my guys are on the fence, but always supervised. I always know where they are outdoors at all times! I too have animals that could get to my babies, and I am very careful with that. We also made the fence line farther up on the front lawn from the street so there would be no "easy" snatch & run with my pups. Invisible fence has you on a regular battery system where every 3 months they send me a new one for each of the collars so my batteries are never dead. It is a hard decision to make, and I know lots of people dont like them, it just has to be the one thing that works for you.


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2007)

Sandi,

I have used a shock collar on Sophie and Gabe. It is made for small dogs and gives off a static shock, not a lighting bolt shock. Not that I am in favor of these either, but their barking at times was out of control. It didn't take but two days to train them and now I can put the collars on them and not even turn them on..

As for your circumstance, I do not think a shock collar in itself would help trian the dog.

I have also heard good things about the invisible fencing, but some dogs are stubborn and break through even that. 

I think your best method would be what Kimberly said, and that's to work with the dog on a regular basis to teach it it's boundaries. I had a dog trainer several years ago that taught my Aussie not to chase animals or bolt after bikes, runners or cars...it takes alot of work, but the end result is the peace of knowing your dog will not get hit or hurt.


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang (May 21, 2007)

Wow - I would've had a heart attack if I saw Pepper blow by me on the road! I hope it works out and that she quits giving you panic attacks real soon! 

Wanda


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

Sandi,
We have used a shock collar, we only use it when I feel Casper's life is in danger. 

We like to take him to the park and let him get a good run, and some times he will take off. The only time we use the collar is if we go to the park and take him off his leash. Once he went after birds and was about to cross the road. Casper would totally not listen to our commands when going after something.

It has different levels, a warning, 1,2,3,4 and we have only used it twice and now if he hears the warning he stops and comes back. I was against a shock collar, but our use of the collar is very limited.


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Lynn, that is the kind of collar I am looking for, do you have the brand name? We need the invisible fence for home, but I need something for when Smarty and I are away from home. She is so fast and if she does not want to come you can not catch her.

Marg, my son has two Rottweilers and he wanted to give them more exercise room on his land, so he installed the invisible fence and his dogs just walked through it. He thought the fence didn’t work so he put the collar on himself (he must take after his father, my DH) walked to the fence and was knocked down by the shock. The Rottys never knew it was there.

Rita, been there done that, dog through the frozen pool cover while the kids had a snowball fight. Boxer was fine my DH all most froze finding the dog under the cover.

Laurie, in a neighborhood I would worry about puppy snatchers, too. 

Kimberly and Diane, You are right about training, Smarty has been in some form of training since she was 3 months old. Yesterday it was back to the basics. She has been in season for the last three weeks but she is back in class this Tuesday. I am going to separate her obedience from the agility. I do not feel a dog is as dependable with treats as they are from old fashion obedience. Smarty knows if I have a treat or not.


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

SMARTY said:


> Lynn, that is the kind of collar I am looking for, do you have the brand name? We need the invisible fence for home, but I need something for when Smarty and I are away from home. She is so fast and if she does not want to come you can not catch her.


Sandi,
I sorry we don't remember the brand name, but we got it at Petco. I asked my husband again and he highly recommends it, he says we had to shock Casper 2 times and now he respones to the beep (warning) and does not have to shock him if he uses it. We only use it when we go to the park and let Casper run off his leash, if he takes off and will not "come" back when called.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

SMARTY said:


> Smarty knows if I have a treat or not.


 Doesn't that amaze you? They are too stinkin smart for their own good sometimes!


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2007)

Does anyone worry about Raccoons , Pit Bulls or other animals getting their Hav's when they are running loose? My Aussies have been attacked so many time while I was walking them on a leash, that they started to go on the defensive when any dog would just approach... One day I was walking my Hav's when a person approached with his Pitbull off lead!!! I stepped side and held my dogs but he just allowed his dog to get right in their faces (which freaked them) insisting his dog was non-agressive. I had to ask him several times to please leash his dog, as my dogs were in a panic..it was nuts!

What is wrong with these people? (or the people who let their kids grab, pull and ruff handle your dogs!)


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

imamurph52 said:


> *Does anyone worry about Raccoons *, Pit Bulls or other animals getting their Hav's when they are running loose? My Aussies *have been attacked so many time while I was walking them on a leash, that they started to go on *the defensive when any dog would just approach... One day I was walking my Hav's when a person approached with his Pitbull off lead!!! I stepped side and held my dogs but he just allowed his dog to get right in their faces (which freaked them) insisting his dog was non-agressive. I had to ask him several times to please leash his dog, as my dogs were in a panic..it was nuts!
> 
> What is wrong with these people? (or the people who let their kids grab, pull and ruff handle your dogs!)


I am really worried about my dogs and cats being attacked by raccoons. I had raccoons in my yard and garage this Spring and Summer. I had a mother raccoon and her babies. I hired a trapper to trap them, only to find out that we have alot of raccoons here and it would cost me alot of money to trap them all. But the raccoons have attacked and killed cats.

As for dogs not on leashes, I decided if the dog was on a leash we would met and greet them. If the dog was not on a leash we would not, if need be I will pick my dog up. In our city we have a leash law, and I am not against turning someone in for a fine, if they don't keep their dog on a leash.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2007)

Lynn said:


> I am really worried about my dogs and cats being attacked by raccoons. I had raccoons in my yard and garage this Spring and Summer. I had a mother raccoon and her babies. I hired a trapper to trap them, only to find out that we have alot of raccoons here and it would cost me alot of money to trap them all. But the raccoons have attacked and killed cats.
> 
> As for dogs not on leashes, I decided if the dog was on a leash we would met and greet them. If the dog was not on a leash we would not, if need be I will pick my dog up. In our city we have a leash law, and I am not against turning someone in for a fine, if they don't keep their dog on a leash.


GEEZ, Lynn..I would want to get some pepper spray or something to protect my dogs in the event of an attack.. I heard that some pet shops sell electric cattle prodes with long handles...this may sound horrible, but if it came down to a raccoon attacking my dog (s), HOW would you stop it before they killed your dog or bit you?


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

Diane,
I read that you could throw rocks at them or hose them down with water, so I did keep a bucket of rocks in the back yard and a hose.

They come out at night so we would have to come in a little before dark, I hated it. We could not sit outside in the yard unless the dog was on a leash late at night.

I had a bad dream that they did attack Casper, so I was all weirded out about it.

We had raccoons running all around the neighborhood this year. I guess the moms with babies are the worst to attack.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2007)

Lynn said:


> Diane,
> I read that you could throw rocks at them or hose them down with water, so I did keep a bucket of rocks in the back yard and a hose.
> 
> They come out at night so we would have to come in a little before dark, I hated it. We could not sit outside in the yard unless the dog was on a leash late at night.
> ...


That is scary, as my Vet told me once that my cat (who had "something" bite a hole in her back, would have not survived if it had been a raccoon attack..they are known to be quite vicious!

My female Hav, Sophie is black and I have had nightmares about her running off in the dark and not being able to find her before the raccoons got her!


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

That is very scary!! Thankfully we dont seem to have any raccoons here. I saw one in my 9 1/2 years here, so I guess they are living elsewhere. But I can say that at night, if my outdoor lights are not on, my guys are always on leash for potty time. With the fox, coyote, and other preditors in my woods, they are always on the leash at night. 
Thankfully I live in a neighborhood where there are not a lot of dogs that are ever off leash. There is one 3 doors down, but he NEVER leaves his property and is so old, my dogs would run circles around him. The only other one is a little white scottie dog, his owner walks him off leash and he actually came over to my property for the first time the other day, I was out there and only Lily was there, barking at him as usual. I was pleased as he was not afraid of Lily, and stood back and allowed him to come on the property and meet Lily, which was an interesting interaction. Normally Lily is afraid of all people and dogs, barks like crazy, and runs away. I let the dog come to me first, pet him, and he went over and met Lily with not running away or growling, they sniffed and met and then he went home!! For us, this was a very big breakthru!! 
But on the other side, although my guys are on the electric fence, they rarely are unsupervised.
Laurie


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2007)

Laurief said:


> That is very scary!! Thankfully we dont seem to have any raccoons here. I saw one in my 9 1/2 years here, so I guess they are living elsewhere. But I can say that at night, if my outdoor lights are not on, my guys are always on leash for potty time. With the fox, coyote, and other preditors in my woods, they are always on the leash at night.
> Thankfully I live in a neighborhood where there are not a lot of dogs that are ever off leash. There is one 3 doors down, but he NEVER leaves his property and is so old, my dogs would run circles around him. The only other one is a little white scottie dog, his owner walks him off leash and he actually came over to my property for the first time the other day, I was out there and only Lily was there, barking at him as usual. I was pleased as he was not afraid of Lily, and stood back and allowed him to come on the property and meet Lily, which was an interesting interaction. Normally Lily is afraid of all people and dogs, barks like crazy, and runs away. I let the dog come to me first, pet him, and he went over and met Lily with not running away or growling, they sniffed and met and then he went home!! For us, this was a very big breakthru!!
> But on the other side, although my guys are on the electric fence, they rarely are unsupervised.
> Laurie


Laurie..

One time when we had two Aussies, my husband let them out at 1 am in the morning to go pee (our back yard is fenced). Well they ran off across the yard barking at something and then instantly zoomed back into the house past my husband and jumped and rolled all over the bed where I was sleeping..Well, it instantly woke me up as they had both been sprayed by a skunk!!! uke:

Now wehave smelled a skunk many times before, but NEVER this close up!
It was very hot that night and we had all of our windows open..but after the skunk, we had to close them all just to try and rid ourselves of the smell!!
NOTHING worked!!! The smell was SO strong and SO gagging that we had to put our dogs in the garage for the night. The next mornig I dropped them by the groomer to have them shaved and bathed.

I couldn't believe how that skunk smell permeated everything in our entire household..even the clothes in our closets! We went to work smelling like skunk and it seemed to take forever for the smell to go away!

Also, my friend had a dog who was spayed by a skunk while it was barking and it ingested the spray making her very sick. That took some time for her to recover from!!

My vet told me that skunks can squeeze through the smallest crack in a fence...

Skunks are my #2 fear...


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I'd love the invisible fence, but we get so many wild animals here I would still really worry for Gryff. We are also on 2 acres and that seems to me to be a very expensive fence. Actually, I am much more worried about the absolute plethora of mushrooms we get on my property in the summer and fall. How am I going to keep him from eating them? He was a real little puppy when we got him in August. I will need to watch him like a hawk.

Lynn - I suppose you could throw rocks at them, but I don't know how much water would effect them. They do swim and like the water. I went running last summer and actually saw a raccoon swimming across a stream in the early morning hours. It was really cool.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Ivy, I know that there are some ups and downs to the electric fence. We too have wild animals but I always keep an eye on them when they are outside running around, and yes Mushrooms are an issue in the summer. There have been a few times this summer where they threw up, and I was sure it was from mushrooms. I usually pick them up in a poop bag when I am on my poop walk!! I hope you find the decision that is right for you.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Wow. And I complain that my yard is small! Maybe it's a godsend! lol 

Diane, I have heard just how horrific skunk smell is once a dog gets sprayed and brings it back into the house. UGH !! I bought some stuff so that it's on hand IF it ever happens. I can't imagine having that scent in the furniture, carpeting, bed..... YIKES !

Laurie, that IS a huge accomplishment for Lily! I'm very happy to hear she accepted the other dog's presence. Guess she sensed he was a good soul.


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang (May 21, 2007)

I can't remember who has the fishing line criss-crossing their yard for protection. I thought of that and the invisible fence last night. The news did a story of a small poodle that was attacked and killed in its own backyard by a coyote. The poor owner was standing in the doorway and was not able to save her little dog. 

The coyote scaled the 6' chain link fence to get into the yard. This happened in Fullerton, CA which is not a rural area.

My 4' corral fencing with livestock wire is looking especially inadequate right now, even though I never let the small dogs out unsupervised. 

Wanda


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

You guys are scaring the h--- out of me.

Now I'm thankful that I live in a townhouse with a little yard out back which is completely fenced in.

We walk our dogs for exercise and unfortunately (for them) they are hardly ever off leash. 
they do get to rlh throughout our house and deck and up and downstairs to the third floor for exercise.(that's one of the great things @ Havs, they can get plenty of exercise inside the house.)

I guess the only thing that could get them would be a large bird of prey, while they are in the little yard, but I'm always watching them and are with them most of the time when they go out.
Last night I had a dream that Cali got out and we couldn't find her and I woke up in a sweat.
If anything happened to our 2 Havies, I don't know what I'd do.


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