# Irish Pied



## hgnolte

Hi,
I'm new here, but just wondering if anyone has a pic of an adult black/white irish pied? I've seen puppies, but not sure about an adult..hope this is okay to post here
Thanks!


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## Tom King

A good percentage of our puppies are Irish Pieds. More pics on our website.


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## Havtahava

I'm not home so I don't have a photo to post, but an adult isn't going to change much unless it has the silvering gene (and coat length will make a difference too).

Have you lokked up the "Colours of th rainbow" web site & checked out the pied photos in the gallery?


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## pjewel

Milo is an irish pied.


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## imamurph

Ok, you guys IM-A-MURPH!! What is an Irish Pied? :suspicious:


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## ama0722

My Dasher is an B/W Irish Pied too! The cute thing is everyone around here thinks he is a baby border collie since they have never heard of havs and Dash has those markings. He just happens to be a really fuzzy one!

Here he is at 11 months.









I think I am partial to B/W Pieds though- it is the coloring I really wanted too!  Now I really notice them. Whether they are BC's or Chinese Crested, Dashie has a lot of twins now!


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## pjewel

Here's a link. Scroll down halfway. It describes the markings. http://www.mts.net/~mckay55/rainbow.html


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## hgnolte

Thank you so much for the great responses~these are beautiful dogs. I'm going to check out the links as well.


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## lfung5

Scudder is a black & white pied. Here he is in a puppy cut.


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## Jennifer Clevenger

I love B/W Irish Pieds. They remind me of little sheepdogs.


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## luv3havs

I love the pictures of Scudder. He is so cute!
I like his cut.


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## ivyagogo

Geri - Milo is so gorgeous! He is one of my favorites.


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## Missy

so is Cash an Irish Pied? I thought the pied had a saddle and collar of white?


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## juliav

Missy said:


> I thought the pied had a saddle and collar of white?


That's what I was told by the breeder as well, has that changed????


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## Lina

I didn't think pieds had saddles, only a collar of white all the way or almost all the way around. Does Cash have a collar of white? Here's a description I found from a breeder website:

*A two color coat with 50% or more of the coat being any color other than white, with the colors laid out in the following SPECIFIC pattern: The underbelly and lower legs are white. There is also white on the chest up to the bottom of the chin, as well as a full or partial white collar or shawl around the neck. The tip of the tail is always white. There may be a colored mask on the face. The coloring on the back is solid and appears as a large saddle or cape covering the shoulders, back and sides. Topline is colored while the underline is always white.*


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## Havtahava

Lina said:


> I didn't think pieds had saddles, only a collar of white all the way or almost all the way around. Does Cash have a collar of white? Here's a description I found from a breeder website:
> 
> *A two color coat with 50% or more of the coat being any color other than white, with the colors laid out in the following SPECIFIC pattern: The underbelly and lower legs are white. There is also white on the chest up to the bottom of the chin, as well as a full or partial white collar or shawl around the neck. The tip of the tail is always white. There may be a colored mask on the face. The coloring on the back is solid and appears as a large saddle or cape covering the shoulders, back and sides. Topline is colored while the underline is always white.*


That description is so clear cut that you can't mistake a pied if you compare the dog to it. I used red to distinguish the parts that hit the most specific areas that separate a pied from other color markings.

I love the look of a good pied.


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## ama0722

Yes, there is a collar. I don't have many pics of Dash from above but his goes all around. I think some pieds have more white than others like the front leg goes all the way up, etc. Not sure if there is no collar if it is just called a black with white markings?


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## hedygs

I love Irish Pieds.


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## ama0722

You know, I didn't realize the underside was a requirement.... I know Dash has a white belly but you can't really see it when he is running around!


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## Havtahava

Yes, Amanda, the underside is a requirement and DashMan is a great example.

Hedy, I KNOW you are drawn to them! LOL


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## Julie

Quincy is one too,by definition.


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## hedygs

Havtahava said:


> Yes, Amanda, the underside is a requirement and DashMan is a great example.
> 
> Hedy, I KNOW you are drawn to them! LOL


:biggrin1: You are so ahead of me Kimberly. :croc:


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## Lina

Julie, really? I thought that Quincy was more than 50% white. I think this means you need to post some new pics of Quincy to prove me wrong! :boink:


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## Julie

Well,I think he is if I read that right. He has an all white underside,front legs/muzzle/collar around his neck. His back/head is all black with a thin swirl of white. The black is like a saddle. Wouldn't that be? Or not?:ear:


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## Julie

Lina---take a look at Quince. What do you think?


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## Lina

I'm not a breeder, but I don't think Quincy is a pied. I think he has too much white on his back (before his tail) to qualify. On the description above it says that the back is entirely a solid color and Quincy's isn't. Then again, I could be wrong... perhaps someone else knows?


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## Havtahava

I think the "more than 50%" weighs a little more heavily than the solid back does. 

Julie, I'm not positive about Quincy, but I'd guess that a lot of breeders would register him as Pied. With that first picture, I would. With the second photo, I'd end up getting outside opinions and probably emailing Suzanne McKay for an additional opinion. She's the expert!


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## Havtahava

By the way, I have a pied that has a smidge of white on his back, but he definitely has more than 50% black so it's a no-brainer for me. The judgement call gets hard when you have one part of the definition fulfilled and another is not, but close.


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## Julie

As a pup that white swirl was pretty big---but it narrowed and it's there today,but very narrow and not that dominate. On Quincy's papers nothing was marked---so I just guessed and marked parti-colored.I don't remember there being an irish pied even on the papers,but then I could be wrong,because to be honest,I wouldn't of known about the coloring like that.


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## Julie

Here are some pictures showing Quincy's swirl now....little of it remains....

I'm curious what you all think:ear:


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## Kathy

Well, you guys have explained so well. Yes, Dasher is a true Black Pied. His black is very black and his white is very white, except when he has been running in the clay! <grin>


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## ama0722

Julie- I would have said he was a Irish pied as a puppy. While the white goes all the way up his legs, I would still say he is 50% black.

Kathy- Since all he hears is that he looks so much like his daddy, he wants to show his red headed mama some love too! And ofcourse, I am saying this while thinking I HATE THE CLAY and looking at Dashers red paws right now!


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## Julie

Would Vallee be an irish pied or a parti?


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## pjewel

Based upon those last photos Quincy looks like an irish pied to me. 

I guess I missed part of the original inquiry. Milo is a tri color irish pied.


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## ama0722

I am going to guess parti cause of all the white. She has white going up her entire legs and shoulder and then white up her rear leg side too. But I could be wrong! I know Poker her brother and Dasher's daddy is a pied. It is generally easier to see from their puppy pics when they dont have all the hair draped but you can see Valle probably would be 50% white and you can compare her to Poker on Kathy's site. Her markings would qualify her to be a pied but I would say maybe the too much white disqualifies her!

http://bellahavanese.com/VALLEE.html


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## lfung5

I didn't read this entire thread. I was told if the dog has 4 white feet, white around the collar, and tip of the tail, he has pied markings. I think quincy is for sure.


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## Julie

I'm just fascinated by this to be honest--I'm not sending Quincy back or anything!ound: I in my head,have always thought of him as a parti color and that's about it really. I know I remember feeling puzzled on his paperwork,but whether irish pied was even a choice on there I don't even know. I do see a big difference though on Poker and Vallee and even Dash when compared to Quince. Scudder and Dash and Poker seem more cut and dried irish pied's to me. You know,with all the color changes in a havanese,it must be difficult to actually classify them color wise because they often look so much different as puppies compared to adults. Quincy did have alot wider white swirl across his back as a pup that has now narrowed it seems,and in some areas looks like it's almost gone,though it could be coat length as well. A few spots of black have even shown up in some of his white....not alot,but a few.I think that's called a Belton? though...just a few/versus alot probably makes a big difference there as well. Fun-what fun!:dance:


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## MopTop Havanese

I think the first few pictures on page one looks like black w/white markings, not pied. Pied has the white collar around the neck (not just white on the chest), and white on the tail. The pics on the first page don't have white on the tail. 
I would say that Quincy looks like a pied to me!
Adorable doggies, all of them!!


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## LuvCicero

What beautiful Havs on this thread. Makes me want to find Cicero a pied playmate. It's a good thing I don't live in an area with lots of breeders. It's best for me that they are hard to find. I love the white collar on these pups.!


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## lfung5

luv2havs said:


> I love the pictures of Scudder. He is so cute!
> I like his cut.


Thanks! I cut him!


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## ama0722

MopTop Havanese said:


> I think the first few pictures on page one looks like black w/white markings, not pied. Pied has the white collar around the neck (not just white on the chest), and white on the tail. The pics on the first page don't have white on the tail.


Katie, good point. Tom, does the dog you post have a white collar or white on the tail?

Julie- well I think the only way you could make Pied cuter is with eyebrows just like Quincy has and Dasher heard me say this and he is trying- has about 10 white hairs above each eye!!! So even my classic little guy is changing a bit!


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## Kathy

Julie said:


> Would Vallee be an irish pied or a parti?


Julie,
Vallee is a "parti". Parti actually means white, just an FYI. <grin>


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## Julie

Oh I see Kathy--so a black and white parti is referring to the black and the parti is referring to the white. How interesting! Can there be such a thing as a gray parti? or a red parti? This is fascinating to me....sorry to keep pestering.

You know--I have a serious crush on Vallee. I think it was last year when Melissa took her photo with some flowers,(in the calendar) I thought and still do--that she is the most havanese I have ever seen. I love her!!!

Amanda-that is so cute that Dasher is trying to grow eyebrows for you! :eyebrows:
He is a cute guy with or without brows--I actually first fell in love with a havanese I found pictured that Quincy kinda does look like....I hung the photo up on my refrigerator where it remained long after I got Quince. One day I was telling someone about it---found the photo again and was shocked to find out it was a female! I still look at her photo sometimes and dream of Quincy growing a longer coat with a stain free muzzle! ound:


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## Kathy

Julie said:


> Oh I see Kathy--so a black and white parti is referring to the black and the parti is referring to the white. How interesting! Can there be such a thing as a gray parti? or a red parti? This is fascinating to me....sorry to keep pestering.
> 
> You know--I have a serious crush on Vallee. I think it was last year when Melissa took her photo with some flowers,(in the calendar) I thought and still do--that she is the most havanese I have ever seen. I love her!!!
> 
> Amanda-that is so cute that Dasher is trying to grow eyebrows for you! :eyebrows:
> He is a cute guy with or without brows--I actually first fell in love with a havanese I found pictured that Quincy kinda does look like....I hung the photo up on my refrigerator where it remained long after I got Quince. One day I was telling someone about it---found the photo again and was shocked to find out it was a female! I still look at her photo sometimes and dream of Quincy growing a longer coat with a stain free muzzle! ound:


Julie,
Thank you for such a wonderful compliment on Vallee.

To answer your question, yes, you can have a red parti, in fact Dasher's mommy is a red parti. The only combination that wouldn't make sense, but that I have seen on several occasions is a white parti! <grin>


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## Paradise Havs

Julie,

This such an interesting thread! I don't care what you call him-pied or parti- he's a doll! I just love eyebrows! Eddie has 2, Rosie has just 1! Didn't realize that Rosie is called parti- but know that she's a party girl!


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## SaydeeMomma

*According the the Colours of the Rainbow site, Saydee is surely an Irish pied. She has a white collar, white "swirl" on her back, white paws, chest and underbelly and a white tail tip. Her mouth area and a little swirl on her head are also white, but the black portion of her body really does look like a saddle. On her rump is cute because she has a white "skirt" and then one leg is almost all white and the other is almost all black, except the white "sock". She also has the "ticking" gene I think, because she has tiny black flecks in a few spots on her white hair, and a big one on her belly where even the skin darker:
















Her collar is pretty heavy white:








The white on her forehead zig-zags all Harry Potter-style! 
She also has that black ticking next to her nose:








This is when her hair was shorter, but you can see the little white pieces:








I don't think she has the silvering gene, but I wonder, when would it start to show up?*


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## Havtahava

Maya, the silvering shows up at different times. I've seen it in puppies that are very young, and adults over the age of one year.

I don't see any ticking on Saydee in those photos. I do see some freckles, but not any that are producing black hairs in the midst of the white. Do you see any thin black patches coming in through her white hairs?


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## SaydeeMomma

Havtahava said:


> Maya, the silvering shows up at different times. I've seen it in puppies that are very young, and adults over the age of one year.
> 
> I don't see any ticking on Saydee in those photos. I do see some freckles, but not any that are producing black hairs in the midst of the white. Do you see any thin black patches coming in through her white hairs?


Hi Kimberly

Hmmm... I'll have to get some close-ups. She does have some tiny black flecks of hair on her legs here and there, which I think are consistent with the photos I've seen describing ticking online. But you don't think the black on her belly is ticking? It grows black hair! When she was a tiny puppy it was lighter in color like a large freckle and now it's darkened and the hair has turned black!


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## DAJsMom

Dusty is an irish pied. She's chocolate, not black, and there is more to her coloring than that. her head has turned white (it was originally chocolate with a white muzzle and blaze) and then golden on top. She either has some sable, or silvering genes or something else! It's fascinating to me. You can see some of the change in the pictures. The picture on green is Dusty at 7 months, the dead grass shot is at 10-11 months, and the carpet was taken recently at about age 2 1/2. I kind of miss the darker chocolate color, but she's still pretty. She obviously has irish pied markings, but I'd be curious what variation to call her chocolate.


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## Havtahava

Maya, she may very well have ticking. I just don't see any in the photos you posted.

The easiest way I have found to show ticking in photos is during a bath. Here is one of my puppies that looked mostly white until he was wet: 
















Back to the pied discussion... there's Dusty! She's a one-of-a-kind pied!


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## SaydeeMomma

Havtahava said:


> Maya, she may very well have ticking. I just don't see any in the photos you posted.
> 
> The easiest way I have found to show ticking in photos is during a bath.


Kimberly
Oooh yeah, your pictures are great. I'm not a good enough doggy-bather to be able to pull out a camera when bathiing Saydee. I'm just trying to keep her from jumping out of the sink and soaking me! That puppy has LOTS of ticking -so cute! That's what Saydee has in just a few spots on her legs, not nearly as much as your pics, and it also shows up best when she's wet. It seems like more black strands keep showing up as her coat fills in, but that could be my imagination ...

I personally think Irish pied Havanese are the very best kind of Havanese. Again, that could be my imagination ...ound:


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## havaone

I never knew there were so many different names for the types of our pups' coloring! I always thought Havanna was just a black & white (never knew what "parti" meant; thanks!), but I guess she's an Irish Pied. She and Amanda's Dasher could be twins, especially from behind!!!


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## marjrc

I am just SO confused, but I am enjoying the discussion! ound: 

I also have to ask...... is it pronounced "Peeeed" or "Pie (like apple) - d"? :suspicious:

For a Hav to be called Pied, he HAS to have the white collar, then right? Sammy has all the other pied markings, except the collar, so guess he's a party kind of guy. ound:

Oh, and because I'm still confused, are there any MORE pictures you can all share? hehehe :biggrin1:


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## Lina

I pronounce it pie-ed like apple pie. Not sure if that's right, but it sounds better than peed, LOL!


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## MopTop Havanese

Marj~ I would say Sammy is black with white markings.
And yes, it's Pie-d!

My Emmy is a silver sable pied~
Here is a pic of her as a baby, and a pic from last year~


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## Sheri

Okay, so is Tucker a one-time black pied, and is now a "blue pied"? (He is getting grayer and grayer, especially under the very top layer.) Oh, and his tail is pretty much white with some gray in it. This is hard to nail down.

Sheri

And his tummy is white.


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## CaseysMom

Hmmm, me thinks I have an Irish Pied.


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## Kathy

Tucker doesn't look to be a pied to me. Seeing puppy pictures would be eaiser to tell though. He has too much white to be a pied.


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## Lilysplash I

My STUEY is an Irish Pied


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## Krimmyk

Sully is a pied, and was at one time a black and white, turned Havana brownish with a dusty Grey. Rainbow doggies for sure! There are pics on my blog about him, look under Sully


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## JASHavanese

hgnolte said:


> Hi,
> I'm new here, but just wondering if anyone has a pic of an adult black/white irish pied? I've seen puppies, but not sure about an adult..hope this is okay to post here
> Thanks!


Here's the definition of an irish pied
IRISH PIED - Two colour coat with over 50% coloured. Coat pattern is laid out as follows; The underbelly and lower legs and tail tip are white. There is also white on the chest, and a full or partial white collar around the neck. There may be a coloured mask on the face. The colouring on the back appears as a large cape covering the shoulders, back and sides. You can see some here http://www.mts.net/~mckay55/rainbow.html


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## JASHavanese

juliav said:


> That's what I was told by the breeder as well, has that changed????


I'm kind of lost on that too from the picture I saw posted as an irish pied. What happened to black with white markings??????????


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## JASHavanese

ama0722 said:


> Yes, there is a collar. I don't have many pics of Dash from above but his goes all around. I think some pieds have more white than others like the front leg goes all the way up, etc. Not sure if there is no collar if it is just called a black with white markings?


Now THAT'S an irish pied Amanda.


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## maryam187

I believe Pablo is a pied, but he's registered as a parti.  I am surprised to read how 'pied' (French for foot, pronounced 'peeye') is pronounced 'pie-d' like apple pie. Weird.

ETA: Pablo is ticking like crazy, does the ticking disqualify him from being a pied?


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## JASHavanese

MopTop Havanese said:


> I think the first few pictures on page one looks like black w/white markings, not pied. Pied has the white collar around the neck (not just white on the chest), and white on the tail. The pics on the first page don't have white on the tail.
> I would say that Quincy looks like a pied to me!
> Adorable doggies, all of them!!


I agree. That really surprised me seeing a black with white markings called an irish pied


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## Sheri

Kathy said:


> Tucker doesn't look to be a pied to me. Seeing puppy pictures would be eaiser to tell though. He has too much white to be a pied.


Kathy, thanks. I just dug out his papers, and it says he was a Black Parti. Does that fit? I'll have to go to the web site that goes through the colors again. I couldn't really make sense of it before, but if he's for sure not a Pied that narrows it down considerably.

Sheri


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## JASHavanese

SaydeeMomma said:


> Hi Kimberly
> 
> Hmmm... I'll have to get some close-ups. She does have some tiny black flecks of hair on her legs here and there, which I think are consistent with the photos I've seen describing ticking online. But you don't think the black on her belly is ticking? It grows black hair! When she was a tiny puppy it was lighter in color like a large freckle and now it's darkened and the hair has turned black!


Maya, get her wet and look for black spots on the skin with black hair growing from it. That would show the belton or ticking gene. Here's Bandit as the black ticking was coming in. When wet you can see the dots and the black. When dry, it looked kind of very light gray instead of pure white. When she was a puppy her back and tail were pure white. Now her back is much darker and she's got spots on her legs as well


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## JASHavanese

Sheri said:


> Kathy, thanks. I just dug out his papers, and it says he was a Black Parti. Does that fit? I'll have to go to the web site that goes through the colors again. I couldn't really make sense of it before, but if he's for sure not a Pied that narrows it down considerably.
> 
> Sheri


I can't tell from your avatar. Is he at least 50% white? If so, I'd say yes to parti


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## Sheri

Yes, he's probably got a little more white than black, although not by much. I don't have any pictures of him stacked, and none on this laptop of him as a puppy.

Sheri


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## SaydeeMomma

JASHavanese said:


> Maya, get her wet and look for black spots on the skin with black hair growing from it. That would show the belton or ticking gene. Here's Bandit as the black ticking was coming in. When wet you can see the dots and the black. When dry, it looked kind of very light gray instead of pure white. When she was a puppy her back and tail were pure white. Now her back is much darker and she's got spots on her legs as well


Hi Jan
Yes, Saydee totally has the black hair sparsely growing out of black spots on the skin. It's only on her legs, two of her feet, and then that random large black spot on her otherwise pink belly which you can kind of see in the picture. Her tummy had been shaved for spaying, so the black hair is not really visible in the picture, but it's growing back in now. I'm sure it's the ticking or belton gene because it looks exactly like the photos Kimberly posted. I need to get some new batteries for my camera and I'll post a picture.

I totally love the unique markings of our breed. As she grows her coat becomes more and more beautiful. Saydee's white swirl on her forehead zigzags up from her nose and really does look like Harry Potter's lighting bolt!


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## JASHavanese

Sheri said:


> Yes, he's probably got a little more white than black, although not by much. I don't have any pictures of him stacked, and none on this laptop of him as a puppy.
> 
> Sheri


Sounds like a parti to me


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## JASHavanese

SaydeeMomma said:


> I totally love the unique markings of our breed. As she grows her coat becomes more and more beautiful. Saydee's white swirl on her forehead zigzags up from her nose and really does look like Harry Potter's lighting bolt!


Isn't it amazing to watch them change colors? The Three Amigo litter was really something to watch. I had 3 puppies born black and each day they looked different and I hear they're getting more white now. I'm still trying to figure out how a whole hair shaft can change color with no line of demarcation!!


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## Kathy

Sheri said:


> Kathy, thanks. I just dug out his papers, and it says he was a Black Parti. Does that fit? I'll have to go to the web site that goes through the colors again. I couldn't really make sense of it before, but if he's for sure not a Pied that narrows it down considerably.
> 
> Sheri


Yes Sheri, I too think Parti is correct, not pied.


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## Leslie

JASHavanese said:


> I'm kind of lost on that too from the picture I saw posted as an irish pied. *What happened to black with white markings??????????*


Jan~ Did you forget? She's here w/me ound:


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## Jane

Question about Parti vs. Pied:

Do you make the decision based on the dog's coat when it is full or clipped? It seems like that shouldn't make a difference, but some dogs, like my Lincoln, have their black markings closer to their spines. When the hair is long, you get the appearance of a larger black area, because the black grows from the spine and cascades down the sides of the dog. When clipped, the black area would look much smaller.

I love this thread, and especially all the photos!


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## Havtahava

Jane, it would be clipped or as a puppy because as the hair grows, the spinal markings tend to dominate the coat as they cascade over the other hairs. A dog with a small (narrow), but long (skinny) black patch that is placed perfectly center can end up covering a lot of white hair easily.


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## MopTop Havanese

Jane~ You make the decision on coat colors/patterns when they are puppies and you send in the AKC papers~ It's real easy to see the coat patterns at that age! But I do agree with you that the long coat can be an illusion!


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## cjsud

The breeder told me Hobbes is a parti with ticking. I call him my Dalmatian puppy. Little black spots down to his skin. When he is in his puppy cut you really see them.


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## Jane

Thanks, Kimberly and Katie! It seems hard that you have to decide on what color a Hav is before the adult coat comes in, and potentially undergo a drastic change! Lightening, silvering, etc. makes for a challenge!


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