# Anal Gland/Biting Feet & Rear/Pooping Pain?



## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

Ok, so Violet didn't seem to have any digestive problem with the switch to Nature's Variety raw (so far using the organic chicken) though I do see her biting at her butt and back feet. This started right after her vaccinations, but I was in the process of changing her diet at the same time, so I'm not sure which, if either, is related to the biting, or exactly what she is biting at. I am going to switch to beef in the next day or two to see if that makes a difference. I hope it's not a food allergy already....

As to the graphic poop/rear end question - this morning she pooped first thing outside, then brought her in and while I was in the bathroom pooped again in the living room on my husband's watch :fish:, that one a little crumbly. Fed her and went outside for a potential poop before her first real walk in the hood, and again the poopy stance. This time she seemed to strain a little more and yelped loudly when it came out. Then one or two more by the time we got to the front yard, and the last one was mostly liquidy, almost clear, very small. I held up her tail and checked her rear, and it looked like the top part of her anus was a little bulgy and red, almost like some tissue was protruding. By the time we got back, it looked normal again, but several times she has wanted to sit down and/or drag her butt. 

Do you think this is an anal gland issue already? I was shown once a long time ago how to express them on my yorkie (thumb and forefinger on either side of the anus, kind of press in then squeeze out to "milk" it), and did when I would give her a bath, but it didn't always produce anything, and I was never sure if I was doing it right. I also though a healthy natural diet meant they didn't need it done, but not sure.

I thought we were skating through the food change without a problem, but wondering if there could be a connection. At first I worried it was something she had eaten, maybe sharp, because she goes after everything outside, especially bark, mulch, seed pods and rocks. She seems fine otherwise. I don't want to run her to the vet for every little thing, I thought I'd wait and see how she was by Monday. Any thoughts?


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Diane,
She has had a lot of change in a short period of time. Going from kibble to raw is a good thing, but they can still have a change in their stools. If it were me, I wouldn't change her food once again, but rather give her more time on what you have chosen. 

As for the licking/chewing of her feet that could be many things, including flea's, stress, or just simply adjusting to a new environment. You might be using a different detergent to wash her bedding in, or clean your floors with something different or spray your yard. Could be many things. 

Keep an eye on her and see how this plays out. I would not suspect allergies yet especially to the food as that is rare when feeding raw. 

Also, I would kindly suggest you refrain from taking her for walks in the "hood" unless she is over 16 weeks old and had her puppy shots. 

Kathy


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

Thanks, Kathy. She had her second set of shots on Tuesday and I asked the vet when I could take her in public places, she said to wait a few days, but this weekend would be OK, so I thought it was safe. We kept moving, and I did not let her sniff around, but I guess shew could still get something on her feet. I'll keep her in the yard until after her next vet visit. She does have a puppy class starting in a few weeks, and I was told the same thing by their trainer - it was OK to take her as long as she'd had her second round of shots. At least there the other puppies will have been vaccinated also, it's required for the class.

I was planning to keep her on the NV for awhile, but the woman at the store I visited a few weeks ago who is knowledgeable about raw, feeds it herself and sells several different brands of pre-made raw suggested rotating the protein source with each new bag, I guess to avoid her developing sensitivities. She mentioned that some of the other ingredients added to NV could cause problems for some dogs (flax, fruits, etc.), though I would be surprised to see that in a young puppy.


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

oh, and we use natural, neutral, unscented cleaning products, no chemical treatments whatsoever on the lawn, and I have checked her carefully for fleas, I don't see anything. It started right after the vaccine, and I have read that chronic feet chewing and paw licking can be vaccine related. My vet is more holistic, but her take is that the puppy vaccines are necessary, but vaccinates minimally after that, and sent me home with a homeopathic that is supposed to help counter the side effects.


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## HavaBaloo (Mar 24, 2009)

I agree with Kathy here Diane, with her shots, new home and food that is alot. I would wait on the beef for a couple of days. Usually starting them on chicken is what is recommended, I think it may be the shots. What were the shots for? 

Not sure about everyone else, but once she is on and used to the raw, her stools should be firm and fewer then when on kibble. That is my experience and have heard the same for others. 

....hmmm seems like there is alot of poo talk around here


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

All the advice above is good, give her a few days to adjust. My DS loves to call it travelers pack (he is so eloquent) when we have family vacation, change in routine, food and water that causes change in bathroom habits. 

Don’t worry so much, everything will be fine.


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## cjsud (Oct 26, 2008)

Gosh when I first read your post I had a blond moment and said how did Violet poop on his watch?


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

thanks, she seemed to be adjusting pretty well to the changes, so I wasn't sure. The shots were routine puppy vaccines, her second set of boosters. She goes back in a month for the rest, then rabies, then I think that's it for awhile. I will probably be doing titers after that vs. re-vaccination.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

cjsud said:


> Gosh when I first read your post I had a blond moment and said how did Violet poop on his watch?


Aha! I thought the same thing, but figured he'd taken off his watch and left it on the floor...which wouldn't have been the smartest thing to do with a puppy around! I thought "bet he was ticked!" 
:suspicious:

ound:


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

Maybe I should edit since it seems to be confusing everyone! He doesn't even wear a watch....

If she has anything really abnormal with her poop the next time, I do have some canned pumpkin I could try. Same thing happens to me when traveling, everything shuts down when my routines are off, though in her case she's doing most of her poops in the morning and then maybe one late in the evening if I'm lucky. Scared me when she yelped when she pooped, though, I thought something was blocking or scratching her on the way out. The first thing she does when we go outside is grab a mouthful of pea gravel or mulch and start chewing away. I know they are supposed to be able to digest bone, and the NV has ground bone in it, though I smoosh and pick through it to make sure nothing looks sharp or too large. I have picked out a few 1 cm. pieces that I wasn't sure about, but maybe I'm being paranoid.


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## PepperToast (Oct 27, 2008)

Hi Diane,

What was the protein that was in her dry food? What ever that was, I would stick with in her raw. I don't recommend switching protein sources at all for a good while. That would be so much change and right now she needs stability. Actually, in my opinion, I wouldn't switch around any protein at all for many months unless there is a confirmed issue with the one you are giving her. 

Also, I really try to have very few ingredients in my doggies meals when in a new situation. I like to give them a safe protein and a variety of just 4 veg/fruit, and one type of oil (like a salmon). But if that is new, then I would wait on that too. She doesn't NEED it right now. Give her a month to get settled. 

Raw poops are VERY different than dry poops and are harder than a pup is used to. Often when their poop is fully converted to raw and there is little fiber from veggies (or grain which I never feed), then the poop will express their anal sacs. This can cause them some discomfort. The nice thing about raw poops is that the sacs never really have a chance to build back up to an uncomfortable level. Violet might take a bit of time to get used to the work it takes to get her poop out and the feeling. Now the bulge...I really can't say as I have no experience with that. But for sure keep a close eye on it. 

Also mucus in the poop is normal, especially when they are transitioning. The firmer poop seems to scrape the stuff out of the intestines. A very good reason to feed raw in my opinion.

Give Violet a squeezy hug from me.

Meeka


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

Thanks, Meeka. Actually most of her poops have seemed softer since on raw. I started her on organic chicken because I read that the was the best choice when transitioning. It's the NV, though, and does have other ingredients.


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## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

Hi Diane....I cannot speak to a raw diet as I have no experience whatsoever. I can speak to my share of diarrhea that seems to have no rhyme or reason. It comes, it goes...a vicious cycle. But, and I stand corrected after the fact, my dogs had no exposure whatsoever to anything public where another dog could have urinated or eliminated feces, until they had ALL their puppy vaccines.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Petaluna said:


> I was planning to keep her on the NV for awhile, but the woman at the store I visited a few weeks ago who is knowledgeable about raw, feeds it herself and sells several different brands of pre-made raw suggested rotating the protein source with each new bag, I guess to avoid her developing sensitivities. She mentioned that some of the other ingredients added to NV could cause problems for some dogs (flax, fruits, etc.), though I would be surprised to see that in a young puppy.


I agree to do this after a puppy has been on one food for at least a month. Remember, their digestive system is also growing and it wasn't too long ago she was only on mother's milk.

Just "food" for thought. <grin>


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

Hi Diane,

This probably doesn't have anything to do with your situation, but I really wanted to feed NV since their plant is less than a mile from my house, buy local and all, but Cooper just couldn't tolerate it. He would start chewing on his feet as soon as I would try to start switching over to it. Winston also got loose stools, but I've found out just about everything gives him loose stools.

I've tried a few different times over the past few years, and every time, Cooper starts chewing on his feet right away.

Beverly


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## sweater32 (Dec 12, 2008)

Hi Beverly, I was surprise when I read NV caused your dog to chew on his feet. Bailey did the same thing, but it was the entire leg. We had to take him to the emergency vet since everything happens to me on a weekend! As soon as we stopped the NV the skin cleared up.


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

Actually it WAS his back leg! And I've heard a handful of other people have the same reaction. 

Beverly


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## karin117 (Mar 29, 2008)

You have got many good advices here. But I tap in here too. I do not think that this is a anal gland issue. She is adjusting to her new food, and the tranformation from kibble to raw take some time...I think her belly just are adjusting to the new feeding...and the bone in the food CAN make her a bit "stuffed up" in the beginning...

I do not think that you should give her ANYTHING els but the food...No caned pumkin...If you want to help a bit, you can use some "paraffin oil", that is THE ONLY oil that is not absorbed by the system...but help her bowel to work thru the content. Make sure to by it at a drugstore in case you want to use it...so you get the right dosige. 

When my dogs are sour in the anal section (this went grafic) I use the same treatment as my small children, Inotyol ...but that is me...


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

ok you guys, that is bizarre, NV causing both your dogs to chew on their back feet/legs. Violet is doing the same thing. Not terribly, but she often stops what she's doing and sits down to suddenly whip around and bite at her back end, and I do think it's her leg she's going after, I've seen her chewing at it and licking, also her foot. What is up with that? 

Meeka (PepperToast) wrote a few months back that the carrots in NV could be a problem with small dogs, making them yeasty, and that could possibly explain itching. The store I bought it from also has Bravo, Oma's Pride and some others, and maybe once our month on the NV us up, I'll try one of those if she's still chewing her leg. I still want to do raw, and really it needs to be a good quality commercial raw because I don't have the time to make it myself and don't want to risk messing up the ratios anyway. 

I was questioning whether this was a vaccine reaction, but after reading that both your dogs did the same thing, it really makes me wonder. The woman at the pet store said NV can bother some dogs who have allergies and food sensitivities because of all the ingredients. Which protein was it? Chicken? 

No pooping problems since that one incident yesterday. I realized also that she tends to hold it unless she gets to put it where she wants to (in the grass, away from our designated area, she is not happy with the gravel for this stuff, other than to try to eat it). 

Thanks very much for chiming in. I'll have to talk to my vet about the leg chewing and whether that could be related to the food. Crazy.


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## tabby2 (Jan 19, 2009)

cjsud said:


> Gosh when I first read your post I had a blond moment and said how did Violet poop on his watch?


I was in a grumpy mood this morning because I had to come in to my office. Then I read this and laughed my head off. Thanks for the morning pick-me-up! (Sorry to be off topic, Diane)


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

Diane,

I've realized Cody started chewing on his paws (front) after I put them on NV medallions. When I started Tess on her elimination diet I stopped feeding Cody the medallions and his feet are starting to clear up. The allergy specialist saw his feet and said he had allergies too - so I'm thinking there's something in the medallions that Cody (& Tess I'm sure) are allergic to. Of course this is after I just bought 3 new bags of medallions!


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## PepperToast (Oct 27, 2008)

That is weird about the whole leg biting thing. 

I will just make one more suggestion. Diane I know that you know a lot of this but for others reading... It is so much easier to figure out what the deal could be when you keep the transition to different ingredients simple. 

I recommend you buy a separate meaty bone and veggie mix. Chicken is a great one to start with. Feed the meaty bone plain for 3 or so meals and then on add the veggie mix to the meaty bone (I am assuming that you are buying ground meaty bones) for 2 or so meals. 

For the veggie mix: keep that simple too. Try to find one with a leaf lettuce and about 3 more ingredients. And yes, I know lots of little dogs who do not do carrots well (itchies from yeast) and alfalfa (vomiting). 

Add supplements yourself. I heard it is best to avoid Flax oil as this can cause trouble but I personally have never experienced this.

If you buy a pre blended raw food you introduce many many variables that can throw you off the cause of an issue. 

Where I live in Canada the raw food is mostly sold with the meaty bones and the veggies separate. You can buy them together but I don't get the impression that they sell a lot of that. I think with little dogs the recommended nutritional balance is important (more protein). 

Oh ya, where do the organs fit in? Some meaty bone blends have them, some don't. If it is ground backs and necks (less meat than whole carcass blends) then make sure you add some as recommended by the company. I add organs to my whole carcass grinds about every 1.5 to 2 weeks because they get a lot of muscle in their food.

Meeka


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

geez, this is not good news. I want to feed raw, but I need to keep it simple or I will make myself crazy, especially now with all the other puppy training/potty training on top of it. The medallions are just so easy, and I don't want to start messing with ratios on my own, particularly while she's a growing puppy. Meeka, I don't think I can buy the type of blends you get in Canada. I'm not sure....I think Oma's Pride might be just meat, but I don't believe I can get just a veggie blend. I wonder if NV even knows about this problem, as I'm starting to wonder if it's common.


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## PepperToast (Oct 27, 2008)

Diane,

If you can find the separate food that would be nice but not necessary and...right now, I don't think you have to worry so much about proportions. 

Even if you can find a very simple blend, that would be nice. Remember, right now you are thinking about basic ingredients. Later when she has been with you for 3 or 4 months (or more) you can start to search for the food you want to feed long term. I have never had trouble switching raw food to raw food of any type so that should be easy!!!

Meeka


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

Thanks, Meeka. I was under the impression that I had to be very careful about balance of nutrients right now as she is growing. Particularly since I'm hoping her underbite might self-correct, though trying to be realistic it probably won't. I started reading about the possibility of vitamin D deficiency on raw for growing puppies after someone posted here with a question about it for weaning puppies to raw, and couldn't find a definitive answer (my vet also said she had never heard of that), but was glad to see the NV had the recommended amount of Vit.D just in case. Not sure about the others. I made myself absolutely crazy trying to get my last dog's raw diet right and made a lot of mistakes, she had allergies, chewed her feet too, and it was really expensive not to mention stressful trying to help her. I guess I'm still fried from 24/7 puppy training, and I'm freaked about the idea of battling allergies on top of it. These dogs are high maintenance already with the grooming....

I just sent an e-mail through the NV website telling them what i noticed and that others seem to be having a similar problem. wonder what they will say, or whether anyone else has complained.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Diane, this is interesting to me also... my boys seem to be itchier since going to ALL NV (from kibble and NV.) Primal has 1 oz pre portioned too with a much simpler ingredient list. I have been thinking of trying them anyway.

http://www.primalpetfoods.com/canine/raw_frozen_formula.htm

two things to note if you do try the primal. First it appears to be more expensive than the NV but you get 4 lbs not 3. And also, the different formula's have very different calorie content. What's nice about the NV is they are all 65 cal per medallion. The primal varies greatly. Not an Issue for a growing puppy like Violet, but for those of us with giant Havs...


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## PepperToast (Oct 27, 2008)

Hey Diane,

I have no research at all to back up this OPINION of mine. I only have my experience and the reading I have done. I will emphasis to all who read that this is just my opinion but.... I have never really worried about absolute balancing. I generally try to balance out over 2 weeks to one month. Even for my puppies. I will buy my meaty bones from several different sources over the course of 6 months. I figure that what one lacks the other will most likely make up for. I vary my veggie mix too. Usually every month or two. It has always worked out for me. Actually I think pups do benefit from this variety of digestive challenges. ie more protein, more bone, then more veggies. It's just an opinion I've formed over observation though. The only evidence I have is the health of my dogs.

What I pay attention to is the simplicity of ingredients and keeping the one protein source while they are young and developing. I don't have your background of an allergy dog. I just found out Walter's allergies (aside from a brief true allergy to spring) was not really an allergy but mites from the rats living under our deck!!!!! I am amazed he and the rest of my dogs and kids are all not going crazy but that is for another thread.

Oh ya, just a heads up. If you have decided you would like to avoid carrots and/or alfalfa, Primal puts them in their chicken formula. I didn't check the others.

Meeka


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## Duncan'sMom (Apr 5, 2009)

Ok, so I have not been feeding raw, but I do have Violet's half brother - and he's been biting his back feet too! I figured it was stress-related with the transition. The vet didn't seem too worried, and my plan is to just keep an eye on it until my next vet appointment. 

Diane ~ that probably wasn't too helpful but maybe it's something they picked up at home before they got to us. No idea. 

Keep us posted on if it stops!


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