# More on Vaccines



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

A friend of mine, Linda Aronson, who is both a Havanese breeder and a vet sent this email out to us today. She gave me permission to share with you:

I put the following together in response to a request from a friend trying to convince one of her friends to delay spaying and not over-vaccinate her new pup. I figured some of you might find this interesting too.

I could send you the scientific papers behind these, but they are referenced in these more reader-friendly ones

Spay-neuter considerations:

https://ivcjournal.com/spay-neuter-considerations/
http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf
https://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2016/07/27/neutering-spaying-effects.aspx
EARLY SPAY-NEUTER IN THE CANINE ATHLETE, by Chris Zink, DVM, PHd
Early Spay Neuter: 3 Reasons To Reconsider

Vaccines: Ron Schultz is the veterinarian who has tested the duration of immunity (DOI) in vaccines. Basically the only vaccines dogs need are distemper and parvovirus as well as rabies. Dr Schultz has shown that the DOI for distemper and parvo (and probably rabies too) is over 10 years, so basically good for life. Provided a dog has a vaccine for parvo and distemper at 16 weeks or older they won't need another vaccine for life. So far rabies challenge experiments have shown that DOI is 7 years at least. Too frequent vaccination or giving too many vaccines weaken immunity. I've spent a lot of time talking to Dr Schultz, and he gives his own dogs a single vaccine at 16 or 18 weeks for distemper parvo, and then rabies vaccines although less frequently than the law requires. In terms of non core vaccines, I don't use any of them. The recommendations of American veterinary Medical Association and American Animal Hospital Association do not recommend either coronavirus (by the time dogs are vaccinated it's not a threat) or giardia - totally ineffective vaccine. Lyme vaccine seems pretty ineffective -I see higher Lyme titers (indications of infection) in vaccinated animals than in those not vaccinated. It can cause serious bleeding disorders and does not protect against other tick-borne diseases. Leptospirosis vaccine only protects against 4 serovars (strains) and others may cause disease, DOI is variable and may be as little as 6 months so vets and owners tend to rule leptospirosis out as a potential diagnosis and delay treatment which is more dangerous for the dog. Finally, after rabies, it is most likely to cause adverse vaccine reactions than any vaccine except rabies. The respiratory vaccines - "kennel cough" is a broad description for disease caused by a huge number of viruses including bordatella, parainfluenza and adenovirus 2. These vaccines are only effective if given intranasally, but only the first is available as an intranasal vaccine! In general, the vaccine causes what is supposed to be a mild case of kennel cough, but in actuality, most cases I see are in vaccinated animals, so again not recommended. Canine influenza is caused by two strains. The first was a mutation of equine influenza, the second was introduced into the US (Chicago) with some Korean dogs rescued from the meat trade there. That strain is the more virulent and still mostly seen in Chicago. I would probably only vaccinate if there is a local outbreak, because like human flu vaccines it's not especially effective and may cause disease.

Vaccines suppress general immunity for 3 weeks after injection (and thyroid levels too) and only provide immunity to the disease they protect against after about 2 weeks. If you titer do it three weeks after the puppy vaccine if it shows a response to the distemper and parvo vaccines the dog is covered for life. If you titer later in life you may still find antibodies in the blood, but if they aren't there the dog probably still has cellular immunity and is protected from the disease.







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https://166919932761%2Faaha-vaccination-guidelines-2017-for-dogs-review%23.WsUqo4jwaUk%5B
Vaccines - Whole Pet Vet
Safer Vaccine Guidelines For Dogs - Dogs Naturally Magazine

Linda


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

Thank you, Karen. Kosmo had a frightening vaccine reaction and so neither of the girls got that vaccination.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Marni said:


> Thank you, Karen. Kosmo had a frightening vaccine reaction and so neither of the girls got that vaccination.


Well, some vaccines are important, but not as many as most Vets push.


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## FutureHavMom (Oct 17, 2017)

Thanks for this, Karen. It's very helpful as we consider the best way to vaccinate Winston.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

I probably should stop reading posts about vaccines - since I have to get them for Perry but the frequency worries me - and reading about the problems with them just stresses me out about something that I can't do anything about.


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## FutureHavMom (Oct 17, 2017)

Melissa Brill said:


> I probably should stop reading posts about vaccines - since I have to get them for Perry but the frequency worries me - and reading about the problems with them just stresses me out about something that I can't do anything about.


Same. How old is Perry? Which vaccines does he have left to get?


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

the one link listed is the AAHA protocol which is slightly different than Jean Dodds protocol. Schultz helped design this one. In that linked article Jean explained why she differs from that protocol. Both her and Schultz have worked together to come up with "minimal" vaccine protocols. I like Jeans better

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https://147595920886%2Fdodds-vaccination-protocol-dogs-2016


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

*Perry and vaccines*



FutureHavMom said:


> Same. How old is Perry? Which vaccines does he have left to get?


Perry is almost 2 and has had all of his vaccines. The problem is that here in Uganda DHLP and Rabies are required annually (they don't accept the 3 year for rabies) with no provision for titers - and we travel in and out so often that we could get caught in either direction for not having them (not allowing us in or out of the country without them). The dilemma is that we've gone in and out several times so far and not once has anyone asked to see his paperwork at the airport. However, we also need to get entry and exit permits so the chances of the permit office denying the permit because his vaccines aren't up to date is high.

The part that worries me the most though is that he's had waaaaaay more of the DHLP already than he should have. He had his puppy vaccines, then had to get some of them again because the first ones weren't official (the rescue said they'd done them themselves but didn't have the 'proof'), then when I wanted to get bortadella last May the vet here insisted that he had the vaccine and it wasn't til I saw what he was putting in Perry's passport that I realized that he had given him DHLPP instead ("it does the same thing" - no, idiot, it doesn't. Live and learn - that I need to look at the vial before they stick the needle in it!)... and then when he got his rabies in October the vet (different one than the idiot) just automatically gave him the DHLPP again (even though I said he just needed rabies) because she always gives them together. So he's already been totally over-vaccinated and we'll have to get the DHLPP and rabies again in October.

He's never had a reaction so far, but I am worried about how much has been in his tiny system. I'm sure if we did titers for all of those things they would be through the roof. But the best I can do is have the vet space the DHLPP and rabies in October.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> I probably should stop reading posts about vaccines - since I have to get them for Perry but the frequency worries me - and reading about the problems with them just stresses me out about something that I can't do anything about.


You've got to do what you've got to do. Even with the 3 year Rabies I get nervous, and I know (for my dogs' health, it is neither necessary or a good idea). But it's the law, so we do it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> the one link listed is the AAHA protocol which is slightly different than Jean Dodds protocol. Schultz helped design this one. In that linked article Jean explained why she differs from that protocol. Both her and Schultz have worked together to come up with "minimal" vaccine protocols. I like Jeans better
> 
> __
> https://147595920886%2Fdodds-vaccination-protocol-dogs-2016


Yes' I follow Jean's also. But the take-home is that most vets WAY over-vaccinate MOST dogs.


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