# Ikea



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

We all know that punishing a dog more than seconds after an improper act is not likely to be linked by the dog to what he did wrong. But here is a tidbit on house training that also points out that even if we "catch them in the act" , they still are unlikely to make the association. From Jolanta Benal ...
"But let’s say you scold your puppy because you've caught him in the act of peeing on the rug. No way is he going to understand that your objections involve the textile. Ikea? What is this “Ikea”? He’s just going to figure that you get weird and scary when he pees or poops in front of you. That is a recipe for unpleasant surprises behind the Crate & Barrel".


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

davetgabby said:


> We all know that punishing a dog more than seconds after an improper act is not likely to be linked by the dog to what he did wrong. But here is a tidbit on house training that also points out that even if we "catch them in the act" , they still are unlikely to make the association. From Jolanta Benal ...
> "But let's say you scold your puppy because you've caught him in the act of peeing on the rug. No way is he going to understand that your objections involve the textile. Ikea? What is this "Ikea"? He's just going to figure that you get weird and scary when he pees or poops in front of you. That is a recipe for unpleasant surprises behind the Crate & Barrel".


No kidding, Dave! I think Jolanta Benal is a really fine trainer. Half a sec; let me look up her web site. Drat! My browser is misbehaving; lost my bookmarks toolbar! I'll try to come back and post it later. It's really worth reading that site!

Thanks for this important tip!

Fri, 27 Apr 2012 22:02:28 (PDT)


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

*Jolanta Benal's web site*

There! Now my browser is behaving again, so here's Jolanta Benal's web site:

http://dogtrainer.quickanddirtytips.com/

Hav fun reading there!

Fri, 27 Apr 2012 22:37:04 (PDT)


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I love the way she put that. Cracked me up. Now off to read more.


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## unjugetito (Jan 2, 2011)

Didn't get to read article as my short break of studying for finals is almost over but just want to play devil's advocate for a second.. If a dog can't associate scolding with peeing on rug why does he associate praise with peeing outside?? Isn't it the same thing? I just think they are much smarter than we give them credit for!!

I'm just glad mine all were all housebroken within a few weeks..


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

unjugetito said:


> Didn't get to read article as my short break of studying for finals is almost over but just want to play devil's advocate for a second.. If a dog can't associate scolding with peeing on rug why does he associate praise with peeing outside?? Isn't it the same thing? I just think they are much smarter than we give them credit for!!
> 
> I'm just glad mine all were all housebroken within a few weeks..


That's actually a very good question; doesn't have to be devil's advocate!

Dogs do learn by association. Anything that causes startling or fear first reaches the emotional brain - the limbic system, as it's called. Fear makes a trigger that engages the survival instinct.

So, when we do something like scolding, the first effect is on the emotional brain, NOT on the intellect!

But when we praise, or even give a treat, for doing something we like, the dog has nothing to fear (presumably), so the intellect is easily engaged.

It's not a matter of how smart a dog is. It's a matter of which part of the brain gets engaged, and in what way. A very first rule is that dogs learn by association. And when a dog is made to be afraid, or startled, there will be no way to predict exactly WHAT the dog will make the association with. It could be, with the person scolding, or it could be with anything else that the dog currently perceives in its environment.

It's a bit of a complex subject, as you can see!

Wishing you lots of luck with your finals! (What are you studying?)

Hugs,
Sun, 29 Apr 2012 19:44:23 (PDT)


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## unjugetito (Jan 2, 2011)

Guess I should be glad my dogs are geniuses :biggrin1: Their mischief is usually contained to stealing socks and underwear which is more endearing than anything else!!!
But I love passing on good articles along to friends and it's always good to know what makes our pups tick 

I'm finally finishing up my sociology degree after a ten year break and I am exhausted!!!! But I graduate in December and I will be doing the happy joy joy dance for days!!!! :whoo:


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## Lori (Mar 1, 2012)

I was thinking that exact same thing....so another question. Why have I read in so many places that if a puppy starts to pee on the floor to stop him by clapping or telling him to stop loudly. Wouldn't that put just as much fear in him/her as scolding him after the fact?

We are still struggling with potty training Shamus. He can hold it in his crate and other confined spaces and when we are going to be gone longer than a few hours, we put a potty pad in his laundry room area and he will use it. He goes outside when we take him out just fine. It's when we set him down when we are home and watching...he will pee so quick we can't even catch him and he gives us no signs that he has to go. We have tried setting a timer and taking him out every 10 min. It works but it is just not realistic to do that all day. At night when we are settling down and watching tv, we put a blanket on the couch and ottoman and let him play and lay with us. If he has to go potty or is thirsty/hungry he will let us know by going to the edge of the ottoman and barking. So if he can do it then...why does he not do it when we set him down in the kitchen? Should I put some potty pads down in the kitchen since he uses them in the laundry room? I would not mind him being trained both inside and outside anyway. We live in Iowa where the winters can be cold and snowy so if would be nice to have him be trained both ways.

Vanilla and Latte's mom...do you have any tips since yours got trained so quickly? Shamus is 16 weeks old and we have had him since he was 7 weeks old. My husband is getting really irritated that he might be messing up our hardwood floor!!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

unjugetito said:


> Didn't get to read article as my short break of studying for finals is almost over but just want to play devil's advocate for a second.. If a dog can't associate scolding with peeing on rug why does he associate praise with peeing outside?? Isn't it the same thing? I just think they are much smarter than we give them credit for!!
> 
> I'm just glad mine all were all housebroken within a few weeks..


Carol was right on with her explanation. Actually, dogs have to decifer what you're reinforcing or punishing. I've seen dogs learning how to do something as "simple" as sit, but connect a paw lift with it. Reinforcement training makes the dog want to keep going / trying to figure it out. When you use 
punishment methodology you'll decrease the willingness of your learner to continue to guess what's bad. The dog usually just temporarily stops *doing anything* which in turn, still doesn't teach him about what you wanted him to do.


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## unjugetito (Jan 2, 2011)

Bacon yes bacon is my secret LOL ound: 

Seriously speaking I used a crate for first few weeks and walked religiously every 2 hrs... NO SOONER I know some people say to take them out more often but I always thought it easier to set them up to pee when you want instead of them training you to walk them .. Is this making any sense? Sample schedule would be:

Step 1: wake up grab pup before anything else (Yes go out in PJ with crazy funky hair and usually in slippers)  DO NOT GO INSIDE UNTIL PUPPY PEES then :cheer2: and give bacon ( i keep a small jar of bacon bits attached to back fence. It's the only place they get bacon and only after pee/ poop)

Step 2: Feed pup in crate Let pup out 1/2 hour later Hopefully puppy will pee AND poop then :cheer2: and bacon

If puppy peed and pooped, puppy stays loose in house for about 1/2 hr If not back in crate.

Repeat above every two hours omitting feeding as necessary. Gradually increase time puppy gets to stay out but not walking schedule. Take out every two hours on the dot!! We actually have an alarm set for every two hours and every time it rings whoever is closest to puppy runs out with him/her. 

The only other secret weapon I have is having five homeschooled kids who enjoy that timer and jump at the chance to give the puppy and themselves an outdoor break!! ound:

Hope this was a bit helpful.. It usually took about 3-4 weeks of training before puppy gets it but by 4 months they have free reign of downstairs between potty breaks. At this point Latte could probably hold it for longer than two hours (she's 7 months) but we still do 2 hr breaks for kids and dogs!!! 

Oh Last walk is at 10 pm and first is about 6 am..


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