# Biting questions



## Ecf1216 (Jun 3, 2012)

Good morning, fellow Havanese lovers! I'm seeking advice about some biting issues we are having with our dog, Hudson. I know this is a long post, but I wanted to give you all the information.

A little background: We got Hudson last summer at 8 weeks old. He is now just over a year. He is the joy of our house and family! He is the sweetest, smartest, cutest dog ever (I know we all say that!) and we just love him. He has got that sweet Havanese temperament that I read so much about when researching breeds, and is very social... Great with adults, kids and other dogs. 

After saying all that, though, we do have one problem with him. He has started to growl and snap or bite at certain times. The growling can get very ferocious (sounds like a wild animal) and the biting is painful (he hasn't broken the skin -- yet).

He shows this behavior at a few different times:

*When he is sitting with me (on my lap or next to me) and one of my sons (12 and 15) comes over to take him from me, he will give a low growl. If they leave him with me, he is fine -- tail wagging, lots of kisses for them -- but if they continue to pick him up after the growling, he will start thrashing and doing the ferocious growl, sometimes with biting. This happens probably half the time they try to take him from me. The rest of the time, he is happy to go with them. And, in general, he loves them -- I'm pretty sure it's not an issue with them, but rather that he doesn't want to leave me at that particular time. 

*When any of us (me, kids, husband) try to take something out of his mouth -- something he's found on the floor, a bone or bully stick that's been chewed too small, someone's underwear -- he growls and often bites. I have to say he is less likely to bite me than the others, but I have been nipped in the past. If we can get the object quickly, things are ok, but if we have to work to open his jaws to remove something, that's when it gets bad.

*Sometimes, when my sons or husband are playing with him, he seems to get overexcited and can get nippy then, too. This doesn't seem like aggressive biting, but the snaps have been getting steadily stronger.

In any if these cases, he is his sweet self as soon as the moment has passed.

Of course, I am looking for advice from any of you on how to handle this behavior, but I took him to our trainer, and wanted to share her thoughts/advice with you. If you have any opinions, please let me have 'em. 

My younger son went with Hudson and me, and she could see right away that Hudson wasn't happy when my son walked over to take him from my lap. She said she could see in the way he (Hud) moved his head and eyes that he was going to be aggressive toward my son.

She told us he was controlling, needs to be in charge, and doesn't know his place in our family. (She said this is a Havanese trait? I hadn't heard that). All this time I've thought it was so sweet that he sits in my lap, she says he does that to be on top of the person he sees as the leader (in addition to wanting to be close to me). The fact that he follows me everywhere is him trying to "herd" me. 

I'm not sure I agree with those assessments, but we definitely have a problem that seems to be worsening, and I'm definitely on board with the idea that Hudson doesn't know his place in our family "pack."

She reviewed the "cradling" technique we learned in puppy class, in which we hold him on his back and don't let him down until he's calm. She said we need to be doing that very often during the day. In addition, she advised us to put him in his crate 3-4 times a day when we are just doing our normal things in the house, so that he sees that our lives go on without him in the middle of things (before this, he's really only gone in the crate when we leave the house). He's not supposed to sit on my lap anymore (he can sit next to me, but not on me), and he should only come up on the furniture when he's invited (when we're on it; if the couch is emoty, he can jump up anytime). She also wants us to leash him to us -- off and on during the day -- and go about our day in the house or yard so that he goes around with us. I guess then we're having him follow us, instead of it being his choice.

We are working on all these things, and they all seem to be going very well; it's only been about a week. He now relaxes right away when we out him on his back, and that is what we do with him when he gets growly or bites. She said in addition to this helping him learn to calm, it also teaches him that we can move him the way we want to, which he can't do to us. That should help with being able to get into his mouth when needed.

So, after all that (thanks to those of you who've stayed with me on this!), I'd love your advice and/or opinions. I'm not so much looking for opinions on the trainer (although I'm happy to hear that), but more on if you know of anything else we should be doing. We are worried he is going to hurt one of us, or worse, a friend or neighbor (although he doesn't show aggressiveness to anyone outside our family at this point).

Thank you in advance for your wisdom!
Ellen

PS. the trainer also recommended we retake our Puppy 101 class, just to get back to some of the basics. We will be starting that next month.


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## swaye (Mar 28, 2013)

Wow, as a new Hav parent, I will be watching to see what the experienced Hav parents have to say. I have read much about pack order on here. And with that goes the myth about being alpha and not putting a pup on its back! I have 2 of the same issues as you. My Hav is only 7 months, but out of now where she gets what I see as aggressive with my dh while he is just sitting in his chair. She also is possessive (resource guarding) about items she finds dropped on the floor and/or outdoors. I can usually swap them out wiyh a high value treat if it is something potentially harmful. She will let me retrieve clothing items by putting gently pressure on her lower jar. She does growl sometimes, but it is different then the one that comes with a bite. That happened to me only once and I remember the growl well.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

I'm curious to read what others have to say.

Regarding his "Resource Guarding" (biting and nipping when you try to remove something from his mouth or around him). - I don't recommend taking anything directly from his mouth, especially by force. Try teaching him "Leave It" or "Drop It". Ideally they should be two separate commands, but Gibbs started to drop whatever was in his mouth when we said "Leave It", so we just rolled with it.


"Leave It" was simple. He let Gibbs watch as we put a treat in our closed hand and let him sniff. We would cue "Leave It" when he gave up sniffing and started to walk away, at which point we would give it to him. He quickly learned that walking away was how he got his reward. Unfortunately, he has also learned that all he has to do to get a treat is pick up a piece of mulch.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Good for you for seeking help in the form of a trainer. Unfortunately this trainer is not correct in half of what she is recommending. I won't go there but I would recommend another trainer. I won't make any recommendations other than that. If you'd like help finding one. Let me know.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> I'm curious to read what others have to say.
> 
> Regarding his "Resource Guarding" (biting and nipping when you try to remove something from his mouth). - I don't recommend taking anything directly from his mouth, especially by force. Try teaching him "Leave It" or "Drop It". Ideally they should be two separate commands, but Gibbs started to drop whatever was in his mouth when we said "Leave It", so we just rolled with it.
> 
> "Leave It" was simple. He let Gibbs watch as we put a treat in our closed hand and let him sniff. We would cue "Leave It" when he gave up sniffing and started to walk away, at which point we would give it to him. He quickly learned that walking away was how he got his reward. Unfortunately, he has also learned that all he has to do to get a treat is pick up a piece of mulch.


is it John or Dana? I think you mentioned mulch before? Just be aware , cocoa mulch is toxic to dogs.


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## sprorchid (Mar 30, 2010)

Ellen, had a question for you. what does Hudson do when you take him off your lap?

I too agree with Dave, your current trainer is half right. also, I personally am not a fan of put a dog on their back till they calm down. that's me though.

My 1/2 hav has resource guarding issues, and also the lap thing, but not the biting, just the growl.

ok things in the mouth that should be there: yes Hudson needs to learn 'drop it'. 'leave it', is when it's on the ground and they want to get something ,but then you say leave it so they don't go for item. or that's my understanding.

find a treat that he really likes, cheese, cooked real chicken, something really good, that he can't resist. and then even with items you don't mind him having in his mouth (easier to teach the trick with), when he has something in his mouth, offer the awesome treat, he'll drop it, you give him the treat (every time). then when he's consistent, behavior wise, you can add a hand signal. then when he's consistent with the hand signal add the word 'drop it'.

good luck.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> is it John or Dana? I think you mentioned mulch before? Just be aware , cocoa mulch is toxic to dogs.


John

We know. Gibbs doesn't eat the mulch. He takes it in his mouth and looks at us until we say "Leave It", at which point he drops it and runs up to us wagging his tail. He's obviously doing a good job training us.

Dana and I keep a solid watch on him when we're outside. One a scale of 1-10, the mulch issue has us concerned at about a 7 level. We've already talked about replacing it with stone, but our trainer suggested it probably wouldn't be necessary. Gibbs listens well and she thinks he'll outgrow the mulch. We're going to let it ride the rest of this year and decide before we spread mulch next year.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

sprorchid said:


> yes Hudson needs to learn 'drop it'. 'leave it', is when it's on the ground and they want to get something ,but then you say leave it so they don't go for item. or that's my understanding.
> 
> find a treat that he really likes, cheese, cooked real chicken, something really good, that he can't resist. and then even with items you don't mind him having in his mouth (easier to teach the trick with), when he has something in his mouth, offer the awesome treat, he'll drop it, you give him the treat (every time). then when he's consistent, behavior wise, you can add a hand signal. then when he's consistent with the hand signal add the word 'drop it'.
> 
> good luck.


great explanation for "Drop It".

Your understanding of the difference between "Leave It" and "Drop It" is correct, but Gibbs somehow learned "Leave It" means both leave it if it's on the ground or drop it if it's already in his mouth (i.e. - Dana and I don't see it until it's in his mouth). We saw no reason to try and teach "Drop It" after that.


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## Pipersmom (Jul 27, 2009)

Ellen, Hudson's behavior sounds exactly like Riley's when I adopted him. He is the sweetest dog and he would have "episodes" like you are describing and then be perfectly sweet and cuddly 10 seconds later. I was obviously very concerned like you are that someone would get hurt. My first Havanese Piper is a sweet, sensitive and submissive dog so I had no idea what to do.
I have had a trainer coming to the house for the past three months and things are greatly improved (but not perfect). She compared it to a temper tantrum and that seems accurate. He wants what he wants when he wants it. Even just the basic training seems to help because he is learning to listen, trust and respect me (my trainer uses positive clicker training methods). We are also using BAT (Behaviour Adjustment Training) . There is a great book, by Grisha Stewart that we are using and I think you will find really helpful. The nipping and biting is decreased dramatically and most importantly I think he feels more secure. We are a work in progress but he is a sweet, awesome boy and I am willing to do the work to help him and it sounds like you are too.

The book is "Behavior Adjustment Training BAT for Fear, Frustration, and Aggression in Dogs" by Grisha Stewart


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Pipersmom said:


> Ellen, Hudson's behavior sounds exactly like Riley's when I adopted him. He is the sweetest dog and he would have "episodes" like you are describing and then be perfectly sweet and cuddly 10 seconds later. I was obviously very concerned like you are that someone would get hurt. My first Havanese Piper is a sweet, sensitive and submissive dog so I had no idea what to do.
> I have had a trainer coming to the house for the past three months and things are greatly improved (but not perfect). She compared it to a temper tantrum and that seems accurate. He wants what he wants when he wants it. Even just the basic training seems to help because he is learning to listen, trust and respect me (my trainer uses positive clicker training methods). We are also using BAT (Behaviour Adjustment Training) . There is a great book, by Grisha Stewart that we are using and I think you will find really helpful. The nipping and biting is decreased dramatically and most importantly I think he feels more secure. We are a work in progress but he is a sweet, awesome boy and I am willing to do the work to help him and it sounds like you are too.


you're on the right track with BAT


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

I would say some of the things the trainer said is OK, some of it not. I don't recommend putting a dog on its back as that can escalate aggression. I think the herding thing is off, Havs are Velcro dogs and if you've seen a dog herding people, it's usually circling them, often children, and often nipping at heels. He seems to be possessive of you and I agree with the resource guarding comment. 

Also, is he neutered?


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Sounds like you are getting some good advice. I'm not an expert but your trainer seems wrong in so many ways. Hav's are not aggressive or protective by nature. I can't speak for all Havanese but my 3 are so passive. I can take anything out of their mouth and pick them up in any situation. 

I do have experience with putting a dog on his back,,,,, I was giving bad advice when Fred was a pup. He was so active and feisty as a wee pup. He would play way too rough with Bella and would make her yelp. I was told to put him on his back several times a day. I can tell you Fred is no longer that happy go lucky pup. I can't say it had to do with putting him on his back, but something drastically changed in him. I do believe I took the spirit out of him. He has no self confidence. Around other dogs, he is always the weak one who gets picked on. As an adult, he is now a very grumpy dog. He is still very sweet, but gets annoyed easily. He is very vocal and grumbles a lot. I wish I never put him on his back....

Good luck to you. I hope everyone here can help you get though this!


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## sprorchid (Mar 30, 2010)

I wanted to add a couple of things. I'm not a trainer either. I do work with a lot of behaviorists, in my day job, for children (public schools).

growling: I get, it's not a desired behavior but it's good Hudson growls, and gives you and others fair warning. There are dogs that don't growl before they bite, and us humans have very little warning before the bite comes. and yes, my little 1/2 hav, when he growls sounds like the warner brothers cartoon character the tazmainian devil. he has a 'fake' growl as a trick, but it sounds nothing like his real growl.

putting dogs on their back to teach them who's alpha and to submit: The only other breed of dog I've had is anatolian shepherds. a giant breed, (over 100 lbs), very head strong, and not so good at obedience.

The first trainer I worked with believed strongly in the the whole methodology of no food reinforcers and dwelled strongly on negative reinforcement (unassociated leash correction as an example), and positive reward would be your verbal praise and physical touch (pat on the head, or body). Also, he believed in all the alpha dog stuff: eat before your dogs, walk into a room before your dogs, dogs never walk in front of you on leash, always behind you, and the pin and put the dog on their back for you to show dominance.

I have used this before. twice. only two times. once for Kara and once for Cosmo. and like Linda said, it did change them a little. Cosmo would take food off the table. we're talking roast or a steak. not in front of me, when I would leave the room. My big dogs are big, and a normal table is at eye level for them, so Cosmo didn't even have to counter surf to get what he wanted.

I think that this type of correction of a havanese is way over the top. and while I think positive and negative reinforcement have their place, Positive reinforcement take you much further and gives you more benefits, relationally with your dog (or humans). 

I do believe if your dog has a behavior that is undesireable, yes you need to correct it (if you catch it in the moment you can 'reprimand'). 

It's like working for a boss you fear vs one you respect and like. I'm Chinese american, and I have a dragon mom and dad, so I know a lot about fear. as a kid growing up I would fear the parental consequences of my actions, and hence NOT do something I'd get in trouble for, vs, respecting and loving my parents and their rules.

anyway, I don't think Hudson is confused about the pack order. In Hudson's mind he is above your son. There are many ways to change this perception in Hudson's eyes.

I know it's a lot of info, and advice people are giving you. so take your time and talk to your family about it as well, b/c you all have to be on the same page, on whatever you decide to implement.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

sprorchid said:


> I wanted to add a couple of things. I'm not a trainer either. I do work with a lot of behaviorists, in my day job, for children (public schools).
> 
> growling: I get, it's not a desired behavior but it's good Hudson growls, and gives you and others fair warning. There are dogs that don't growl before they bite, and us humans have very little warning before the bite comes. and yes, my little 1/2 hav, when he growls sounds like the warner brothers cartoon character the tazmainian devil. he has a 'fake' growl as a trick, but it sounds nothing like his real growl.
> 
> ...


I hear ya Jacqueline. Can't say I'm a fan of your first trainer. Here's the problem with corrections eg leash correction which is actually positive punishment ... http://www.training-your-dog-and-you.com/Dog-Training-Corrections.html


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## sprorchid (Mar 30, 2010)

I find dog trainers often use their dog methologies on people. 

So the first trainer I worked with, I consulted with him, when Oz and Ollie had pack order issues (e.g. fighting). it'd been 5+ yrs since I worked with him.

Since I no longer subscribe to all the bullet points of his preferred training methodology I don't implement them. and the trainer had A LOT to to say to me about it. He was very negative with me, and attempted to use shame and guilt to 'motivate' me back into his methodology. 

You can imagine how that went over. I never called him again. 

I think that every dog is unique, just like people. and every technique has it's place, and there is a bigger picture we all need to look at. 

I strongly believe for both dogs and humans in cause and effect. and the third law of physics, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If you don't like surprises, you need to do HW so you aren't surprised by the 'reaction' or effect a change in behavior causes.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yep HW pays dividends . Not sure every technique has its place some are just plain wrong. Good for you for speaking up with your feet lol


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## Ecf1216 (Jun 3, 2012)

sprorchid said:


> Ellen, had a question for you. what does Hudson do when you take him off your lap?
> 
> I too agree with Dave, your current trainer is half right. also, I personally am not a fan of put a dog on their back till they calm down. that's me though.
> 
> ...


When I take him off my lap, he looks at me as if to say "what are we doing next?" If I don't get up and just stay seated, he settles in on the floor or roams off (but never too far away!).


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## Ecf1216 (Jun 3, 2012)

Pipersmom said:


> Ellen, Hudson's behavior sounds exactly like Riley's when I adopted him. He is the sweetest dog and he would have "episodes" like you are describing and then be perfectly sweet and cuddly 10 seconds later. I was obviously very concerned like you are that someone would get hurt. My first Havanese Piper is a sweet, sensitive and submissive dog so I had no idea what to do.
> I have had a trainer coming to the house for the past three months and things are greatly improved (but not perfect). She compared it to a temper tantrum and that seems accurate. He wants what he wants when he wants it. Even just the basic training seems to help because he is learning to listen, trust and respect me (my trainer uses positive clicker training methods). We are also using BAT (Behaviour Adjustment Training) . There is a great book, by Grisha Stewart that we are using and I think you will find really helpful. The nipping and biting is decreased dramatically and most importantly I think he feels more secure. We are a work in progress but he is a sweet, awesome boy and I am willing to do the work to help him and it sounds like you are too.
> 
> The book is "Behavior Adjustment Training BAT for Fear, Frustration, and Aggression in Dogs" by Grisha Stewart


Thank you for the recommendation. I have ordered the book and am looking into a new trainer -- for me and Hudson!


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## Ecf1216 (Jun 3, 2012)

atsilvers27 said:


> I would say some of the things the trainer said is OK, some of it not. I don't recommend putting a dog on its back as that can escalate aggression. I think the herding thing is off, Havs are Velcro dogs and if you've seen a dog herding people, it's usually circling them, often children, and often nipping at heels. He seems to be possessive of you and I agree with the resource guarding comment.
> 
> Also, is he neutered?


Thanks for your comments. The herding comment was sort of the instant red flag when I was talking with the trainer (the other things took a little more time and thought to start questioning). I've never felt herded by Hudson; when I was dating my husband, he had a Rottweiler -- and he was definitely a herder!


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## Ecf1216 (Jun 3, 2012)

sprorchid said:


> I wanted to add a couple of things. I'm not a trainer either. I do work with a lot of behaviorists, in my day job, for children (public schools).
> 
> growling: I get, it's not a desired behavior but it's good Hudson growls, and gives you and others fair warning. There are dogs that don't growl before they bite, and us humans have very little warning before the bite comes. and yes, my little 1/2 hav, when he growls sounds like the warner brothers cartoon character the tazmainian devil. he has a 'fake' growl as a trick, but it sounds nothing like his real growl.
> 
> ...


I laughed at your "Tazmanian Devil" comment -- that is exactly what he sounds like! I have to say I was a little relieved, too, to hear that my dog is not the only one making that particular noise. And I appreciate your input regarding a positive training approach. I feel that we've been on the right track up until I took him to the trainer to address the biting. Her feedback didn't seem right, so now we will tackle this from a different angle.


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## Ecf1216 (Jun 3, 2012)

Thank you all for your comments -- I should have come here for advice first!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

Hello and welcome to the forum!!
Sorry I'm late to the thread, but here's my 2 (un educated) cents! 

Our hav Tillie will sometimes growl at my kids (ages 11 and 8) when they come out into the living room at night when she is tired... for many months I kept dog treats IN their rooms and they would always bring a treat out to give her when they came to say goodnight. That helped that situation pretty easily. They haven't had to do that in over a year now...
ALSO another thing is that when your hav has something you don't want her to have, offer a TRADE. So, don't just take something that he HIGHLY values as contraband, BUT offer him something SOOOOO much more yummy (chicken breast? beef liver, etc...). eventually he will learn that when he 'drops it' he gets rewarded with something better than what he had.
I have only had to go IN her mouth to get ONE thing OUT because it was very dangerous. (she never complained, but man that jaw is STRONG! lol) On the whole, I make her dropping it way more appealing than not dropping it...
just my thoughts...


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