# Pissin In The Wind Housetraining



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

In a thread I started earlier, ( unjugetito ) asked a good question ,so I thought I'd check with my friend in Ireland on this . She always has a good take on these sort of things. Here's the question followed by Anne's reply to me. 

If a dog can't associate scolding with peeing on rug why does he associate praise with peeing outside?? Isn't it the same thing? 

Hi Dave, 

This has got to do with classical associations - these take time to build and usually many repetitions. 

Let's say we tell puppy off for peeing on the rug. We hope to decrease this behavour - that's operant, and its positive punishment.
Let's say we give puppy a treat for peeing outdoors. We hope to increase this behaivour - also operant, and its positive reinforcement.

Well obviously its only P+ if the behaviour actually decreases and only R+ if the behaviour actually increases (overall in frequency) but let's not split hairs. It is however an important point - our intention (or hopes) doesn't matter, its only a measure and review of behaviour.

On a purely technical and operant level the query is accuate - if we can R+ peeing outside we can also P+ peeing on the rug but that is not the only issue...remember that this is actually a classical quandry so not so straightforward (plus some other behavioural control stuff too, just to make it really tricky lol!).

The issue with using punishment (aversives) is always a classical one IMO but there are operant considerations too.

We are usually not punishing the behaviour we think we are - to use aversives effectively punishers need to be unbelieveably well timed (within less than 2 seconds and avoiding overshadowing etc.), severe enough to stop behaviour and other ops to have behaviour reinforced must be eliminated. Punishers are tough to use correctly. 
For the most part if we don't apply the same rules to R+ well (reward not as rewarding as it could be, timing off) then learning takes longer but usually without the fallout that goes with P+.

Now the classical bit - when we interact with our dog, or indeed any environmental stimulus does we are training him most likely through classical conditioning. 
If we don't time our punisher bang on and use it the correct intensity it is likely that it will be associated with other environmental stimuli present other than the rug. Could be you the punisher, could be someone else present, could be some noise or scent. In fact certain stimuli are going to be more salient to the equation than others - if your timing is off then you may well be the only consistent stimulus... (present everytime the aversive is).

And because you are delivering the punisher the rug may not even come into it. Think about it: puppy walks across the rug, lies on the rug, eats on the rug and does countless other behaviours on there none resulting in an aversive so why would it be anyway easy for puppy to associate the rug with the behaviour with the aversive when there are much more consistently present (salient) stimuli i.e. you, a certain word or sound etc.

Why isn't the reverse as true? Well because from an evolutionary point of view its much more important for puppy to avoid stimuli predicting the arrival of intense aversives than to be attracted to mildly enjoyable food or other rewards (especially as they are prob available at other times too).
The problem with punishment isn't that it doesn't work its that its super difficult to do well and avoid fallout.

Plus we have another consideration to think about - that of innate canine behaviour and not directly learning related (in this sense). Dogs toilet train themselves whether we are involved or not. Naturally puppies prefer to choose a toileting spot on an absorbent substrate, away from feeding and sleeping areas etc.etc. So this tendency is much stronger and more likely to be present than anything that we can reinforce or punish.
Therefore our punisher to be truly effective will have to be very intense and specific - not something we are good at with our dogs.

Plus from an ethical point of view I don't think its fair that we intro aversives for a behaviour the dog is compelled to do. That's why management to prevent accidents is sooooo important in toileting scenarios while we establish a highly rewarded behaviour so that toileting elsewhere (in another classical context) is sooooo important. 
Just as punishers would need to be intense for this so do reinforcers so big jackpot for nice toileting behaviour with a high value reward (not kibble or something puppy gets all teh time). 
And for the same reasons we need to continue to reward for a long period of time while managing to establish good toileting behaviour. 

From an operant point of view I guess there is little difference but from a classical, ethological and ethical point of view I perfer R+ and facism-level-management (lol!). I always prefer to have puppy associate my presence with nice things rather than aversives - plus we are the primates with the big brains capable of understanding all this (just about) so we need to take some responsibility for puppy's behaivour.

Just my two cents, don't know if that will make sense?

Wags and Woofs,
Anne Rogers


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

That's really great, Dave! I wish we could put that on a sticky in the puppy section!


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## Tuss (Apr 22, 2012)

thanks! That's such a great explanation. These dogs are so sensitive. I was scolding for going in the house and all it accomplished was to make her afraid to go outside in front of me. Now I'm ignoring the mistakes (or just rushing her straight outside when I witness it), and lots and lots of treats and praise for going outside. Today marks 3 full days without an accident! Of course it's raining outside today so I don't have high hopes for success.


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

Brilliant reply to you, Dave, from Anne. I agree completely with all that she said, and couldn't have constructed such a great explanation myself. So please thank Anne on my behalf. I wonder if that could be made into a Sticky - should be, if you ask me!

I'll just add that a couple of weeks after Camellia came to be my dog, I discovered she wasn't house-trained. It took me about four months to house-train her, and I kept the faith. I was exhausted. It was highly worth the effort, though!

She was 3.5 years old when she came to be my dog, and she can have accidents resulting from stress (has had one or two - in other places, not at home, when she was trying to say she needed to go out, and I hadn't caught on to the full extent of her signals - she CLOWNS when she needs to go out, and she's a natural clown anyway! So I need to be aware of her likely timing, to be able to distinguish clowning from signal!

But it's not difficult to take her out when she clowns at times she's likely to need to go out, either!

Sat, 5 May 2012 03:31:37 (PDT)


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Yeah , I will thank Anne. She is tremendous and I told her she should use this for a blog, which she does on a weekly basis. If I ever need help when trying to help someone out ,she is always there. She sent me this at 2 a.m. her time and I had to tell her to go to bed. She is so busy trying to spread the word sort of speek. She recently started APDT in Ireland and is always on the go. She's my first mentor. We need more people like this in the world, especially the dog world.


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## Blue_Persuasion (Jan 4, 2012)

I guess I'm just an oddball here. We brought our puppy home at 10 weeks, and the wee wee pad was hit or miss. Two weeks later I got a bell, and within 36 hours, he was completely trained. He hasn't had an accident in the house since. Granted, it helps that my husband works from home and is here all day, but once Bobby realized what the bell was for, no accidents at all.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

I'm an oddball too then!  although Tillie was a ripe ol' 14 weeks when we brought her home! I think it is HUGE to have someone with them 24/7 and paying ATTENTION to them during those first weeks at home to make sure they don't have a CHANCE to have an "accident". It took me 2 weeks of hovering and being paranoid and taking her out every time she sniffed ANYTHING before I hooked up the bells. Once she figured out what they were for she never looked back and hasn't had an accident since. Well except for one bizarre time where it was a MONSOON outside and she would NOT go outside to pee! little stinker!!


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## Blue_Persuasion (Jan 4, 2012)

TilliesMom said:


> It took me 2 weeks of hovering and being paranoid and taking her out every time she sniffed ANYTHING before I hooked up the bells. Once she figured out what they were for she never looked back and hasn't had an accident since.


Exactly. He had one accident after hooking up the bells, but I think it was because my husband was in the basement on a conference call for work and didn't hear the bells. The accident, however, was on the pee pad right at the front door -- so we knew he understood it all. Very smart little boy. 

He waits patiently at the door and never ever bolts. He actually waits to be invited out in the evenings when I let him out off leash, which is really amazing at his age. He's learning "come" pretty well, and when he comes in the door and I take his harness off, "sit" is also being responded to very well.


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## ShirleyH (Sep 13, 2009)

Such good points and it all boils down to 'puppies learn what they do' with regard to toileting so don't let them do what is inappropriate. Attention that does not falter until they are trained will do the job every time.

Keeper's Mom


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

davetgabby said:


> Yeah , I will thank Anne. She is tremendous and I told her she should use this for a blog, which she does on a weekly basis. If I ever need help when trying to help someone out ,she is always there. She sent me this at 2 a.m. her time and I had to tell her to go to bed. She is so busy trying to spread the word sort of speek. She recently started APDT in Ireland and is always on the go. She's my first mentor. We need more people like this in the world, especially the dog world.


Wow; I admire Anne's energy! Glad she started APDT in Ireland! A great thing to do. And glad you told her to go to bed! I'm generally aware of people's local times - I try to pay attention to that.

We surely could use a lot of people like Anne - that's right on the button!

Could you discuss with her whether we may put up her post as a Sticky here, as well as putting it on her blog? That's a good idea, to get it onto her blog. We could then just link to her blog in a Sticky.

So many people have so much still to learn about dogs - actually, probably all of us have, but some are missing some of the crucial information to begin with. I thank you, too, Dave, for keeping an eye on things here and helping out so much.

Sat, 5 May 2012 19:06:23 (PDT)


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## tokipoke (Feb 13, 2012)

*Housetraining older dogs?*

This topic is very interesting to me cause it hits home! Any tips on housebreaking an older dog? I'm finding it very difficult. I just don't know why Louis hasn't picked up on it yet. I housetrained my other dog just fine, but he was 12 weeks when I got him and I bell trained him. He picked that up so quickly too.

Louis is 2 and have been with me for 2 months now. Maybe I'm missing something. He has good bladder control when he's in his crate. I let him out immediately outside in the morning. I give him treats and praise and while he is peeing I use the words "go potty" ("go poop" for pooping). He has more freedom in the house after walks because he marks a lot so I know he is empty. But sometimes he'll just pee in the living room. The area he pees in is actually the area the dogs play and chew bones and bully sticks. So not sure why he would pick that spot. He doesn't signal me when he was to go, and if he does, perhaps it's so subtle I don't even notice. My other dog stands in the front of the door or rings the bells. Usually I just have to watch for him sniffing the ground. I haven't been officially bell training him, so should I be ringing the bells before opening the door to let him out? Should I be treating him after EACH elimination? Currently I don't give him treats on the walks, only when I take him out to the backyard. It's really perplexing why he doesn't connect scratching at the back door or ringing the bells to be let out to go, but he scratches at the back door to be let in! When I put the bells up for my other dog when he was a puppy, even my cats learned ringing the bells = open door to outside, within a few minutes. I've also made the mistake of getting angry when he pees in the house, so maybe he doesn't signal to me cause he is scared of me? It's just everytime I think he will pee or he has peed, I feel like a failure. There have been times where I'll take him out to the backyard and he stands around looking at me or chews grass. Then I shuffle him inside, and he'll want to pee by sniffing the ground. I'll take him for a walk and he'll pee THREE times. So dunno if he knows me letting him outside means doing his business.

Oh I want to add that when I can't watch him I'll leash him to me or put him in his crate. The few accidents he's had was when I didn't literally have my eyes glued on him for a few minutes.


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

Toki, I'm not clear on what you do when you want Louis to do his stuff outside (apart from walks). One place, you talked about saying go potty; and so forth - sounds as though you're out there with him. But in another place, you talk about letting him out - do you go out with him then?

If not, I would.

Housetraining Camellia, I wore myself out quite thoroughly. When I'd think she would surely need to pee by now, I'd even go ouside and call her. She MIGHT come out. If she did, then I'd coax her into the yard, and maybe she'd pee, and maybe not. In the yard, I'd give her treats (three tiny ones) EACH time she peed, or peed and pooped.

It IS possible Louis has a residual fear of peeing in your presence; I believe that can be overcome simply with time and perseverance (rather exhausting for us!)

About the area he pees in inside, is that carpeted, or what? You may need to use an enzyme cleaner to remove as much trace of pee-scent as you can, but you probably know about that.

Who and what is your other dog? Maybe Louis is peeing in the toys-area as a calming signal. That's actually possible.

Sun, 6 May 2012 00:19:14 (PDT)


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## tokipoke (Feb 13, 2012)

I'm always outside when he has to pee. I treat him after he pees or poops in the backyard. There have been times where I take him out (I do it frequently) and he wants to go back in (cause there's a bone or bully stick he wants to get to) so he runs back to the door and scratches at it. Sometimes I'll let the dogs out to run around and they'll be out there for 5-10 minutes "on their own." I put that in quotes cause I watch from the windows just to observe their behavior. Of course Louis wants back in and he scratches at the door and windows. Maybe I need to up the treat value? He gets Zuke's chicken treats. I have a lot of variety of treats to keep things interesting. I should probably start treating him during our walks.

The area he has peed are carpeted. During the first few days I had him, he was still learning to potty on cue outside. But he wouldn't go. So I took him upstairs and he was loose in the bathroom while I showered. I have carpet in the bathroom (I know, gross, but came with the house). He marked 2-3 times and peed. What a misunderstanding that was. I learned not to let him loose anywhere if I'm not sure he's gone and I can't watch him. 

He pooped in the house when I first got him cause I didn't immediately take him out after feeding. I took a few minutes to wash the dog bowls, saw that he pooped on the dog bed. (Why would he poop on the dog bed?? Does he want his scent on there or what?) Went to get some tissues, then he ran over and grabbed the dog poop with his mouth and ran off. I stopped him and did yell at him. He dropped it and scurried away, but not too far. I yelled at him to keep him from eating it. Since he's been with me, he hasn't eaten his poop (he likes his fresh, but only wants to eat his own) cause I watch him every time and don't let him sniff. I treat him after he poops to reinforce that he gets a treat for pooping with the cue word AND for ignoring it and looking at me instead of the poop. He's peed twice in the house and both of those times were because I didn't watch him for a few minutes. I mean, I can't get mad at him. One of the pees I had to stop midstream while he was going outside cause my husband was going to spray bug spray on the patio. We went in the house and I guess he still needed to finish. The other time I failed to watch him for a few minutes. He's stopped marking in the house thank goodness.

I do use an enzyme cleaner to clean the carpets but it's getting old! Trying to keep the carpet clean that is, cause sometimes my cats will throw up and of course they like to do that on the carpet. I'm trying to convince my husband to rip out the carpet and put a different floor down, but that's another topic altogether! My other dog is an 18 month old standard poodle. I never thought of peeing in the play area as a calming signal, but who knows. Louis has a lot of quirks. He still refuses to eliminate for my husband when he takes him to the backyard. However, he will pee on the walks, but the whole time he's pulling to get away from him.

Another thing I thought about was that maybe he's used to eliminating in his play area due to being kenneled? I cannot confirmed if this is how he grew up, but would explain why he pees in the play area and why he defecated on the dog bed, and also why he likes to eat his own poop.


Didn't mean to hijack this thread but needed some advice!!! I feel like housetraining puppies are so much easier


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## Blue_Persuasion (Jan 4, 2012)

tokipoke said:


> I feel like housetraining puppies are so much easier


Having had my first puppy in forever, it seems that way. Casey, my Maltese, was a 16-month-old rescue dog when I got him back in 2003. I think he had been crated most of his young life as he had a manic fear of being penned in any fashion, and he had also ground down his front bottom teeth (apparently from gnawing at his confines). Needless to say, he was NOT potty trained.

It took a bit more work (and I wasn't aware of the bell thing then), but he eventually got potty trained. Like Havanese, Maltese are supposed to be difficult to train. I haven't found that to be true of either breed so far. It CAN happen -- just lots of consistency.

One thing I would recommend is that you control the situation while outside. That may mean putting him on a lead to take him out to potty, and he doesn't go off lead until he does. That means if there's something in the house he wants, he doesn't get to choose that over doing what *you *want. You're the pack leader. You decide what he does and when.

This also caught my attention as well:



> One of the pees I had to stop midstream while he was going outside cause my husband was going to spray bug spray on the patio. We went in the house and I guess he still needed to finish.


I'm not sure if I understood this correctly, but if I did, what was so urgent that the dog needed to be stopped mid-stream over bug spray? I would think that would be confusing to the dog.

It's very possible he's getting mixed signals and is confused as to what you want from him. Dogs are innately rigged to be pleasers to their people. They typically *want *to make you happy. But they can become hot messes if they don't know what you want. Imagine being picked up and placed tomorrow into a country where you don't know what's being said, what people want, or what they're trying to communicate. The only way we can overcome that is to recognize patterns until we learn some of the language. Our dogs are no different. Beyond that, dogs are pack animals, and you are their pack leader/alpha. Some of the worst dogs I've seen have masters who don't "master" them and try to treat the dog as an equal or don't really require them to obey commands. One doesn't have to be mean to get these results -- just firm and *consisitent*.

We are by no means professional dog trainers, and I keep reading about all these calming signals and whatnot and other fancy terminology that I have never heard. It almost sounds like thinking overkill to me. We have owned a number of dogs, and every single one of them has become potty trained, able to walk with us off leash if so desired, and adheres to basic commands. And we never used any of this fancy stuff that's bantered about in forums like this.


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## Tuss (Apr 22, 2012)

I'm still struggling with training my girl, but today is 1 week without a poop accident in the house and day 5 for pee! 

I found that my other dog distracted her from peeing, so when it's pee time, i take her outside alone, I watch her but don't engage her in play and try to avoid eye contact. when I see her out of the corner of my eye peeing then I give her lots and lots of praise (i wait til she's almost done so she doesn't stop midstream; i want that bladder empty). If she's due for a pee and won't go, then I put her in her crate for 30 minutes or so and then take her straight outside to go. I don't want to give her an opportunity to have an accident. ONly when the bladder is empty do i let her have free run of the house. This approach has been working for me for the past week, and just in the past couple days she has started scratching at the door when she wants to go out (not always to pee, often just to play outside, but I always let her out because I to reinforce this signal)


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## tokipoke (Feb 13, 2012)

I am consistent 99% of the time. That 1% is when my eyes are off of him for a few minutes. The housetraining is making me really neurotic, and I'm already a neurotic person. Just wish that I can relax in my own house for a minute without him being crated so much. If he's not crated, he needs 100% of my undivided attention.

I had to stop him from peeing midstream cause he stepped in an ant pile and had fire ants crawling all over his legs. I picked him up to pick all the ants off before they could bite him and my husband wanted to spray bug spray cause there were ants everywhere. 

Louis is weird cause one time he peed on the carpet, it was after taking him to the backyard to pee, then an hour walk where he relieved himself several times till empty. I was putting dishes away and figured he was empty, but seems like he peed just cause he was bored. Cause I took him out before I found the pee spot and he did nothing. I almost think he's thinking "oh you're busy? Well I've got nothing else to do so let me go pee on the carpet." 

Maybe Havanese take longer for it to click in their head. So maybe another 2 months or so...


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## Blue_Persuasion (Jan 4, 2012)

Ah, okay, good ol' Texas ant piles. Having moved to Virginia from Houston after 27 years, I SOOOOO understand! Got it. 

I keep hearing Havs can be hard to potty train, but I've heard the same on Maltese. We've owned Maltese in my family for 40 years, and there was only one that my mom had when I was really little that marked all over the place, so she placed him with another family.

And having trained Bobby in a day and a half, I'd say it was pretty easy here, too. Then again, situations are different, as are the dogs themselves, so it can make it hard to figure out why one does so well when another does not do as well.


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## Evil-Twin-Tobias (May 15, 2012)

I can empathize with Tokipoke completely. Toby is around 2 years old and we've had him for about 3 months. He had a few pee accidents and a couple poop accidents in the first month, mostly because I didn't watch him very closely in the first few weeks. I was under the delusion that since he was over a year old he was trained, that and the foster mom said that he was trained. Toby was a rescue pup so I should have known better. He eventually had ME on a schedule and was doing great. No accidents for 2 months......until this morning. I took him out first thing in the morning as usual and he went a couple times so I brought him back in. About 10 minutes later I saw him by the back door and he barely touched the bells, but I thought he was just smelling the leftover treats. I've been trying to train him to ring the bells to alert me but he has not picked that up yet. I should have taken him out, but I was getting the kids ready for school and got busy. Well, I went upstairs to my bathroom and there was a little puddle. And, like you, I also have carpet in my bathroom. I hate it as well, but it came with the house. I was upset and angry at first with Toby, but then I realized that it was my fault. I should have taken him out when he tried to tell me what he wanted. I just wish I can get him to ring the bells a little bit louder and longer, but baby steps for now. I wonder how long they have to be accident free where I finally can relax?


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## tokipoke (Feb 13, 2012)

*Louis is bell-trained!!*

Isn't bathroom in the carpet the worst?! Who thought that was a good idea??

After the last pee accident I found (maybe a week ago) - I said no more!! I'm tired of expecting so much from him and being disappointed when I make no progress.

In the past couple of days we've made progress. Louis is bell-trained!! It's only the fifth day of training so I wouldn't call him pottytrained just yet.

He's the blurb I wrote out for my friend who asked about bell training, I list the steps I took to train Louis (I refer to him as "my small dog"):

After the last pee accident I found (maybe a week ago) - I said no more!! I'm tired of expecting so much from him and being disappointed when I make no progress.

In the past couple of days we've made progress. Louis is bell-trained!! It's only the fifth day of training so I wouldn't call him pottytrained just yet.

There's two ways, first version is easier, second version is more involved. You have to tailor it to your dog. Either way, end result will be when the dog has to eliminate, he'll ring the bell to alert you so you can open the door and they pee/poo outside.

You need to get a set of bells like sleigh bells. Pet stores and walmart sell bells for potty training. I made my own by getting some from a craft store and stringing with ribbon. Hang it on the doorknob for the backyard.

I trained my standard poodle starting at 12 weeks. Before opening the door, I'd ring the bells in his face or get him to nudge the bells with his nose. Open door, when he pees (you can use a cue word like "go potty"), give him a treat. Sound really excited. I just kept doing this till one day, maybe 2 weeks later, he magically picked up the fact he needs to ring the bell when he has to pee. This fast turnaround happens with puppies and very intelligent breeds. This is the "easy" version the dog just "gets" it.

I tried the easy version with my small dog. For 3 months I'd ring the bell before opening the door. Obviously he didn't understand cause he would pee on the carpet when I wasn't paying attention.*

So I had to increase the intensity of training. I tried luring him with a treat towards the hanging bells. He didn't get it. So I broke it down into steps:

Step 1: target the bells. I held the bells near him. The bells had peanut butter smeared on it. I had a higher value treat in my hand. When he made a move to sniff the bells, he got a treat. Eventually he'd lick the *bells and he got a treat. He learned if he kept touching the bells with a nose = treat.

Step 2: move the bells a little further away. Repeat step 1.*

Step 3: hang the bells on the door. Repeat step one. He should be used to waking up to the bells on the door and hitting with his nose.

Step 4: when he hits the bells that are hanging on the door, open the door and throw a treat outside. Keep doing this so that he understands that now ringing the bell = open door outside = treat

Step 5: repeat Step 4 but move further away from the door. He should get used to walking up to the bells at greater distances away from you. I did this till I was sitting in the living room and he was alerting me. It's important not to cue the dog to ring the bells. He needs to do this independent from you. So I ignored my dog till he hit the bells. Open the door, walk out, give a treat.

Step 6: it gets tricky here cause after successfully completely Step 5, the dog will keep ringing the bells just for the treat. I let my dog keep ringing the bells every minute to reinforce the fact the door opens and he gets a treat outside, but you want to phase this out. Now bell ringing = open door to outside + peeing/pooping = treat. To set my dog up for success, I only allowed him to ring the bells when I KNEW he had to pee. So I had to crate him or leash him to me cause all he wanted to do was ring those dang bells. The first time he was confused when he didn't get the treat right away outside. I guided him with the cue word "go potty" (he already knows that command), and he peed right away and got the treat!

So far we are on day 2 of Step 6. Instead of shuffling him outside immediately after eating, sleeping, playing, I let him tell me he has to go out with the bells. Of course I still have to watch him to see if he'll ring the bells cause you want to react immediately to his cue. He still sniffs the carpet like he wants to pee inside, but he knows I'm watching so he rings the bells instead.

Step 7 will be him ringing the bells on his own when I'm not watching or in a different room.

We are currently at my parents house. Totally new environment for him. I plan to challenge him by getting him to ring the bells even in a new place. Wish us luck!! And good luck to others housebreaking older dogs! It's a lot of effort but worth it! I'm just glad I took a very logical approach to something that makes me so emtoional!


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## tokipoke (Feb 13, 2012)

^^ sorry for the weird cut and paste. I'm on my phone and it's acting kooky


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## Evil-Twin-Tobias (May 15, 2012)

Thank you so much for your post. I'm going to print it out and paste it on my back door so we can get started. Small dogs must be harder to train, because I had no troubles with the golden and lab we had before. Well, he's still a joy and I wouldn't change a thing.....maybe the carpet in my bathroom.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

GREAT way to give the steps!!
I was blessed with getting Tillie when she was a young puppy and started her on the bells right away. She got it within the first couple of hours and never had another accident. I do have to say that one of the MOST important parts of bell training is that EVERY.SINGLE.TIME they ring the bell, you HAVE to open the door for them, wether you think they need to go or not, wether you KNOW they just want to go play with the cat or bark at something. You HAVE to reinforce that you WILL open that door every time they ring the bell. At least for a few months till you KNOW for CERTAIN that they are FULLY trained. I must have lost 10 lbs those first few months... LOL I remember going INSANE and just leaving the door OPEN for awhile so I could get a BREAK! 
Once your hav is fully trained and reliable, if you know they just went potty yet they are still ringing the darn bell, you can tell them to "wait" or "lay down" without fear that they will potty somewhere else.
GREAT JOB guys!!


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## Blue_Persuasion (Jan 4, 2012)

I guess each dog is different as is each training method. Our only "treat" was to give him tons of attaboys. Though I will periodically give a treat if the dogs have done something especially good, for me personally, I don't like to give goodies for going potty where you want them to (I probably did for a very short period of time in the very beginning but quickly stopped). My folks give treats every single time the dogs go out. Then they wonder why the dogs go outside 14 times a day and why, when they visit me, mine only go out a handful of times. Then their dogs were twice the size they should be while mine were trim.  I have no issue personally with giving treats for stuff so long as it doesn't become an ongoing thing forever. Otherwise you can end up with a real problem later on.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Blue_Persuasion said:


> I guess each dog is different as is each training method. Our only "treat" was to give him tons of attaboys. Though I will periodically give a treat if the dogs have done something especially good, for me personally, I don't like to give goodies for going potty where you want them to (I probably did for a very short period of time in the very beginning but quickly stopped). My folks give treats every single time the dogs go out. Then they wonder why the dogs go outside 14 times a day and why, when they visit me, mine only go out a handful of times. Then their dogs were twice the size they should be while mine were trim.  I have no issue personally with giving treats for stuff so long as it doesn't become an ongoing thing forever. Otherwise you can end up with a real problem later on.


I agree. "Training treats" should be just that. Rewards for learning new behaviors or doing something really hard. They aren't meant to be handed out for things the dog knows well and are expected behaviors. Otherwise, they almost become bribery more than rewards.

The only exception is that we ALWAYS reward recalls at distance in an uncontrolled environment. It's money in the bank against the day we don't happen to have something in our pocket, and need him to return to us RIGHT NOW!!!


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## Blue_Persuasion (Jan 4, 2012)

That's an excellent reason to reward vigorously and often.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

at about a yr old we switched our potty rewards and only give her a treat if I have ASKED/told her to 'go potty' otherwise if she asks to go out she doesn't get a treat anymore... as for recall... still working on that one!


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