# I'll just sit, thanks!



## Chi-Chi's Mom (Dec 10, 2015)

Chi-Chi will just NOT stand for exam. I have been luring her but after she gets her treat she will just plop her butt right down and laugh at me. Have tried trainer's suggestion of gently sliding my foot under her. I have tried everything on YouTube to no avail. Any and all help is greatly appreciated.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

She's still young. Keep working on it. i would NOT put my foot under her, gently or not. This could easily cause her to try to move away from your foot, which would have terrible consequences for so much other obedience work! 

If you've spent a lot of time teaching sit first, it has been heavily reinforced, so that's what the dog thinks s/he should be doing. I made this same mistake with Kodi, and it took MONTHS to get him to stand reliably. with Pixel and Panda, I didn't make that mistake. Neither of them was reliable on their sit cue as early as Kodi was, BUT they learned all three positions (sit, stand, down) at the same time. 

I found it easiest to work on "stand" on the grooming table to start with, with his front feet against the edge of the table, so he had to do a kick back stand, with no forward movement. Lure if you need to to start with, but use your clicker the moment you get the stand. She won't make the connection immediately, but she will over time. Don't worry! She'll get it!


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## whata_dog (Sep 10, 2015)

hahaha- this reminds me of when my young daughter and I visited a nearby breeder whose young Hav adored my daughter (and we adored her) 
so we spent 3 hours at her house one day socializing with them both. 
My daughter was playing with her & telling the pup to sit and the breeder was all "NOOOOO!!! I don't train them to sit, we can't do that, they have to stand for conformation" lol


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## Chi-Chi's Mom (Dec 10, 2015)

krandall said:


> She's still young. Keep working on it. i would NOT put my foot under her, gently or not. This could easily cause her to try to move away from your foot, which would have terrible consequences for so much other obedience work!
> 
> If you've spent a lot of time teaching sit first, it has been heavily reinforced, so that's what the dog thinks s/he should be doing. I made this same mistake with Kodi, and it took MONTHS to get him to stand reliably. with Pixel and Panda, I didn't make that mistake. Neither of them was reliable on their sit cue as early as Kodi was, BUT they learned all three positions (sit, stand, down) at the same time.
> 
> I found it easiest to work on "stand" on the grooming table to start with, with his front feet against the edge of the table, so he had to do a kick back stand, with no forward movement. Lure if you need to to start with, but use your clicker the moment you get the stand. She won't make the connection immediately, but she will over time. Don't worry! She'll get it!


Good call. Especially in light that I already spooked her by stepping on her foot. We just got a grooming table last week so I'm glad it now has a dual purpose. Going to take it slowly.

You are dead on about the sit command. She's up to 47 seconds sits and 19 seconds downs and cannot stand for 1. Looking back, I don't know why I never worked on stand. Rookie mistake.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

whata_dog said:


> hahaha- this reminds me of when my young daughter and I visited a nearby breeder whose young Hav adored my daughter (and we adored her)
> so we spent 3 hours at her house one day socializing with them both.
> My daughter was playing with her & telling the pup to sit and the breeder was all "NOOOOO!!! I don't train them to sit, we can't do that, they have to stand for conformation" lol


But teaching JUST stand is JUST as bad as teaching sit strongly without also teaching the other positions. It causes EXACTLY the same problem... only worse, because the "stand" that conformation people generally want is out in front, looking back at the handler. There is NO PLACE in obedience where this is a place you tell your dog to stand.

A dog can easily learn to "stack" for conformation AND learn obedience position changes at the same time. It definitely takes a little longer to teach ALL the different positions, but you get a dog who actually understands, rather than thinks, "Good dogs (only) sit!" or "Good dogs (only) stand and wag their tails!"


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Chi-Chi's Mom said:


> Good call. Especially in light that I already spooked her by stepping on her foot. We just got a grooming table last week so I'm glad it now has a dual purpose. Going to take it slowly.
> 
> You are dead on about the sit command. She's up to 47 seconds sits and 19 seconds downs and cannot stand for 1. Looking back, I don't know why I never worked on stand. Rookie mistake.


Yup. I did the same with Kodi, not knowing any better. Took AGES to fix it, but I DID fix it, and once it was fixed, it was solid. You'll get it too!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Oh, wanted to add that although it's not a bad thing to work on stays... that's not all there is to sits and downs either. Make SURE you are working on QUICK position changes... from stand to down, sit to stand, down to sit... until she is FLUENT in these position changes on cue, and does them PROMPTLY, with no forward movement. You don't want a dog who gets "stuck" in the sit and won't move off on heeling, or won't down from the stand in signals. (which is WAY more common than anyone would like!) prompt, on cue, position changes, like heeling, are something best started early, and revisited, time and time again through your dog's training and competitive career.

It's fun too... like "Simon Says" with your dog. They should be waiting for your cue, not anticipating, and make SURE you don't always do them in the same order, so they are just learning a sequence. (all too easy fall into that trap too, since we are as much creatures of habit as our dogs are! )


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

krandall said:


> But teaching JUST stand is JUST as bad as teaching sit strongly without also teaching the other positions. It causes EXACTLY the same problem... only worse, because the "stand" that conformation people generally want is out in front, looking back at the handler. There is NO PLACE in obedience where this is a place you tell your dog to stand.
> 
> A dog can easily learn to "stack" for conformation AND learn obedience position changes at the same time. It definitely takes a little longer to teach ALL the different positions, but you get a dog who actually understands, rather than thinks, "Good dogs (only) sit!" or "Good dogs (only) stand and wag their tails!"


Nino's brother was not taught to sit by the woman who owns him, and he sits in the ring very frequently. Nino knows the sit command and has never put his butt down in the ring unless I told him to do his own thing, which really only happens in group.

Not to mention the fact that dogs are smarter than people give them credit for. Stand is Nino's go to, and I emphasized it a bit more because I have no interest in competitive obedience, but he understands the difference between hand signals. And there's the situational behavior. He is a different dog when at the end of his show lead. Still spunky, but much more well-behaved and reigned in. He understands that the lead means he gaits, stacks, and allows a stranger to fuss around his mouth and private areas.


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## Chi-Chi's Mom (Dec 10, 2015)

krandall said:


> Oh, wanted to add that although it's not a bad thing to work on stays... that's not all there is to sits and downs either. Make SURE you are working on QUICK position changes... from stand to down, sit to stand, down to sit... until she is FLUENT in these position changes on cue, and does them PROMPTLY, with no forward movement. You don't want a dog who gets "stuck" in the sit and won't move off on heeling, or won't down from the stand in signals. (which is WAY more common than anyone would like!) prompt, on cue, position changes, like heeling, are something best started early, and revisited, time and time again through your dog's training and competitive career.
> 
> It's fun too... like "Simon Says" with your dog. They should be waiting for your cue, not anticipating, and make SURE you don't always do them in the same order, so they are just learning a sequence. (all too easy fall into that trap too, since we are as much creatures of habit as our dogs are! )


Ahhhh...now I remember. This was something we worked on back in beginners OB and she was sloppy with it then. I put it on low priority and eventually fell off when the focus moved to heeling and stays. And how right you are, now it's become an issue and will have to be corrected before we can move forward. Thanks so much!


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

I used to do competitive obedience and dabbled in conformation in my younger years, with my non-Havs. I was fascinated with my dogs' ability to instantly know what we were going to do depending on which collar and leash I put on them! They are SO smart and quick to read subtle cues!


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