# Using Xpen during the day



## Ellie NY

Hi All - I have a 14 week old boy who has been with us for about 2 weeks now. At night, I put him in his Xpen which is attached to the his crate around 10 PM. He barks for roughly 10 - 15 min before he settles down and sleeps until 5 AM or so when he needs to potty. After our 5 AM walk, I normally allow to him roam the first floor (our bedrooms are upstairs) so I can get an hour more sleep before I have to get up for the day. He's very quiet if I do that. If I try to put him back in the crate, he starts to bark and my husband and I cannot sleep - plus I worry the neighbors will be disturbed. 

I work from home and my office is on the second floor where our bedrooms are. If I try to leave Eli in the Xpen while I'm upstairs working he barks and barks. I use the "quiet" command and that will work for a brief period before he starts barking again because he knows I'm home and it's not bedtime. I've also tried giving him treats/toys while in his Xpen but that doesn't help. I've begun allowing him out to roam the first floor and he's very quiet and happy, it seems. Unfortunately, we sometimes have potty accidents. He refuses to use the wee wee pad in his Xpen so will use the floor (although he does have access to a faux turf covered porch). Bringing him upstairs is not an option since my children and I are allergy/asthma sufferers and I'd like to keep our upstairs pet-free. Here's the question - Should I let him bark-it-out and get used to his Xpen during the day or should I allow him to roam the first floor and prolong his housebreaking? 

P.S. I come down often to give him lots of love and take him for walks.


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## michi715

My only thought is that if you respond to the barking by showing up or giving attention, he will continue to bark for that attention. Unwanted behaviors need to be ignored.

I might also suggest giving an extra special treat as soon as you put him in so that he associates the pen with getting a really awesome treat (maybe some yogurt/peanut butter frozen in a kong or cheese in some other type of toy).


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## pjewel

I'm not sure, but it sounds as if he's spending a lot of time on his own, away from family. I know you don't want him upstairs, but would you consider having him only in your office in an ex pen so he would be with you. If not, I would try to get him very tired before you go into the office to work. Maybe then he would go in easier.


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## krandall

I agree with Geri. In general, I tend to be one who thinks our Havs are capable of being more independent and less clingy than they are sometimes portrayed. However, you have a very young dog of a COMPANION breed and he is being kept isolated from human companionship for a LOT of his time. 

Kodi is pretty independent, and VERY well adjusted. He has no separation anxiety and never has. But he definitely wants to be with me when I'm in the house. I work from home a lot of the time too, and he is typically asleep with his head on my foot. If I get up to go to the bathroom or get a cup of tea, he comes too. He just WANTS to be with me!

I also don't know any way to truly potty train such a young puppy without closer supervision than you can possibly give him if you aren't even on the same floor. Puppies need CLOSE supervision ALL the time to prevent accidents. Every accident you let him make sets his training back farther.

If you can't have him up in your office with you, you may have to move your base of operations downstairs until he's older. Maybe take a lap top onto the dining room table? Another option (once he's truly potty trained) is to put him in day care during the day when you have to work and can't give him any attention. Then he will at least have other dogs to play with, and will probably be tired enough to sleep better (and longer) at night as well.

One way or another, I think you need to give some careful thought about why you want to have this type of dog if he can't spend good, quality time with you. I certainly understand about allergies and asthma. Kodi doesn't sleep upstairs with us for the exact same reason. But I make sure that I am with him, downstairs, for most of the day.


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## Thumper

Yes, I'm thinking he just wants to be with you, I don't know what you do and if you can let him sleep in your office in little doggie bed (?) Just being near you will help him.

I think this type of problem is harder to train with havanese just because they are companion dogs and really crave companionship and love being stuck to your hip like velcro  and arent' as independent as many other breeds are.

I work from home, too, and my sewing studio can be pretty loud so sometimes ..and if she's in no mood for the industrial machine noise, she'll lay right in front of the open door and watch me and nap, or she'll come sleep on one of my chairs in here, she whines every so often to play or go out, which is fine because I need my breaks too.

But I know I wouldn't be able to concentrate on my work if she was frantic across the house or upstairs//(my office is downstairs )

Kara


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## puppyinmyyard

Ellie-I just responded to you on another thread. Our puppies are about the same age and it sounds like are at about the same stage in training.

I just want to caution you about letting him roam around the house. This is my story so I hope you can learn from it. Last summer we had to find another home for our 7 year old Bichon Frise. We had her crate trained fairly easily or so we thought. We soon let her play loose (not on leash) with the kids in the house and let her roam around a bit. At night and during the day if we were gone we would put her in her crate and she never had an accident. We soon discovered pee spots in the play room or family room. We couldn't ever catch her in the act, and if we took her outside and said "go potty" she always would. So we ended up ALWAYS having to keep an eye on her and couldn't trust her loose in the house at all. She never really liked the kids, and would pee on their toys, backpacks, shoes etc. Even outside she would seek out their swim towel etc. and pee on them. I worked with our vet, a trainer and Bichon breeder but we ended up deciding she would be happier in a home with no other dogs or children. And she is a very happy dog now, and last time I heard had no accidents at all. So for us it was a combination of letting her have free run of the house too early so she developed bad habits we couldn't break, along with her personality of not wanting any competition for my attention.


So I am so cautious with Chloe. She sleeps in her crate and is in either in her expen or on leash in the house during the day. Yes, she barks because she wants out to play during the day and it drives us crazy. I have told everyone to ignore it, as hard as it is to do so. Even us talking to her results in her thinking she is getting our attention. When she is quiet I try to remember to reward her with a "good quiet" chloe and a treat or belly rub. I take her outside several times a day to run after balls or just play in the yard. And I take her out to sit on my lap (or hook her on her leash around my chair leg) when I am at the computer or reading a book. But my thoughts are she ***has**** to be supervised at all times. If she is loose and potties in the house (and it's happened twice) it is our fault not hers. This is going to be a several month process. But already I see little improvements both at night and during the day. Maybe you could let your pup play on leash by your feet while you are working. Or move his ex pen in the same room at least so he has your company.

In the morning she has been getting up anywhere from 5 to 7 am. The 5 am is a bit too early for me, so I let her out and then put her in her crate. I give her toys and a kong toy stuffed with food and a treat on the end to hold the food. So far this has worked to keep her quiet until we are ready to get up. Then the it gets tricky because we are all rushing around trying to get ready for school etc and she wants to get out and play. Right now this is the worst time for barking. I totally understand she wants to play, we're just trying to figure out how to make it all work


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## Ellie NY

*Thanks!*



puppyinmyyard said:


> Ellie-I just responded to you on another thread. Our puppies are about the same age and it sounds like are at about the same stage in training.


Thank you so much for this advice. It's exactly what I needed to hear! I hate the barking but it's like my Mom once said - Better the "kids" cry when they're young then you cry when they're older. Wise advice. So, as much as he hates it, he needs to be kept in the Xpen more. I've called a trainer to come to our home this weekend. Hopefully, a little additional investment now will pay great dividends later. I'll keep you posted with any great advice they pass along.


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## nycali

I'm interested in hearing about your allergy situation, as I'm contemplating that too. Do you notice you or your kids reacting to your Hav when you are all together in the bottom floor living space? Do you spend a lot of time with your dog during the day? I am interested in knowing if your barrier to second floor is effective or not, since you do spend significant time with your Hav in your living quarters.


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## LilyMyLove

Ellie NY said:


> Thank you so much for this advice. It's exactly what I needed to hear! I hate the barking but it's like my Mom once said - Better the "kids" cry when they're young then you cry when they're older. Wise advice. So, as much as he hates it, he needs to be kept in the Xpen more. I've called a trainer to come to our home this weekend. Hopefully, a little additional investment now will pay great dividends later. I'll keep you posted with any great advice they pass along.


He might be barking because he is in the ex pen downstairs while you are upstairs. I have never had a problem with Lily barking in her expen when I am in the room with her. You have to determine if you are "ferberizing" your dog or if there are other issues at play here. Do you have unrealistic expectations?

I have allergies and reactive airway disease and never have a problem with Lily. I wash my sheets at least once a week, vacuum frequently and brush her and give her weekly baths. Blankets and comforters in my home are also thrown in the washer on hot frequently. This stuff is pretty standard for someone with severe allergies who doesnt have a dog, so I don't feel like its any extra work.


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## LilyMyLove

nycali said:


> I'm interested in hearing about your allergy situation, as I'm contemplating that too. Do you notice you or your kids reacting to your Hav when you are all together in the bottom floor living space? Do you spend a lot of time with your dog during the day? I am interested in knowing if your barrier to second floor is effective or not, since you do spend significant time with your Hav in your living quarters.


As I mentioned above I have allergies and do not have a problem with Lily. That said you need to make sure you get a dog from a reputable breeder and not a pet shop or backyard breeder or puppy mill. If you get a mix, or short haired Havanese, there is no guarantee it is going to be as hypoallergenic and this frequently happens in these situations.

Dogs pick up pollen, dust and other allergens outside in addition to their own small amount of dander (if its a Hav) and need to be washed frequently. If I stick my face in her hair as she hasnt been it can make my nose tickle, but thats it. I should mention that I take allergy medication/have an inhaler, but as anyone with severe allergies knows that doesn't do all that much.

I wouldn't plan on getting a Havanese and keeping it off of the second floor. This works for some people (see Kodi) but this is an exception to the rule for this breed in my opinion. They are bred to be companion dogs. You could have a dog with separation anxiety which includes barking, chewing, urinating out of frustration. Or a dog that is sad and depressed because it needs to be quarantined away from the family. Trying it out and having to surrender the animal is not fair to it.

I might look into a Portugeuse water dog and some of the breeds of terriers that are hypoallergenic. They can be great with kids and if you work with a breeder let them know you will be keeping it on a separate floor so they can pick one of the more independent dogs in the litter.


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## irishnproud2b

Did I miss something? Several mentioned how this companion breed just wants to be with you, and you think keeping him longer in the ex-pen is the answer? Surely I must be missing something...right?


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## LilyMyLove

irishnproud2b said:


> Did I miss something? Several mentioned how this companion breed just wants to be with you, and you think keeping him longer in the ex-pen is the answer? Surely I must be missing something...right?


Preach!

Geri and Kara, can we start awarding comment of the day on HF?

Im starting to think people post a question asking for everyone's advice (after not searching to see if it has been covered before), disregard all responses that do not confirm what they thought in the first place (from people who have had a Hav for 1-10 years), and latch onto the one reinforces that what they are doing is right-even though it obviously isn't if you are asking for help in the first place.

Please tell me that is not what is going on here...:brick:


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## juliav

This is really quite sad.  Havanese is a companion dog and it's number one job is to keep its' human company. I think it's cruel to get a dog who is bred to do one thing, be a companion, and keep it separated from it's human counterpart. This puppy didn't have a choice, but the person who bought it did. I am sorry if I sound harsh.


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## Thumper

I somehow *missed* that the puppy was banned from being upstairs at all because of allergies on another thread here? Banning her to one floor won't make a difference, it will only make her sad and depressed.

I have to agree with Meghan, you can't always cherry pick the advice you want to hear and assume that what you have cherry picked is what will work. I have awful allergies to just about everything, (or so it seems, somedays) and that his how I ended up choosing this breed, and like Meghan, I have to give her a bath every 5-7 days (depending on what she's been exposed to, pollen/dust levels, etc), keep the house clean, change the air filters, etc. It's not really a 'little' additional investment, its a lifestyle change and commitment.

I think its a bit unrealistic to believe that a havanese puppy will be content alone in a pen most of the time, with an occasional walk or play session, they call them velcro dogs for a reason. While there is always a few exceptions to the rule, you'd likely have to work closely with a very experienced breeder to find one with a temperment of that nature, I don't mean to be coming off harsh, but I'm not convinced that you can train a social breed to be like an independent breed and expect them to be happy spending most of their time in a cage/pen/crate all day without the human interaction they crave so badly, especially puppies. Most of us cannot even go to the bathroom without being followed, that's the havanese in the dogs..a desire so strong, like the shredding gene they have..

I also don't think your bichon was doing anything spiteful when marking... I have a big family like yours, 7 kids..and if my dog was peeing on their backpacks and wet towels on the floor, I just would've told them to pick their stuff up off the floor and put it up where it goes...wet towels have an icky smell, the type of smell that any dog would be tempted to mark over. I'm a little surprised your trainer would suggest she didn't like the kids, it was probably just the smell of the wet towel....?


Kara


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## Thumper

LilyMyLove said:


> Preach!
> 
> Geri and Kara, *can we start awarding comment of the day on HF? *
> 
> Im starting to think people post a question asking for everyone's advice (after not searching to see if it has been covered before), disregard all responses that do not confirm what they thought in the first place (from people who have had a Hav for 1-10 years), and latch onto the one reinforces that what they are doing is right-even though it obviously isn't if you are asking for help in the first place.
> 
> Please tell me that is not what is going on here...:brick:


Like a gold shiny sticker on the posts?? lol...IDK, Geri maybe we should research this function or Demand it....ound: it'd be like the opposite of the fish smack????



???



??



hahaa..there are some really funny smileys out there (and mean ones, wow!)

Kara


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## KSC

Have to agree with the advice most people here have given - find a solution that allows your puppy less freedom and the ability to be close to you. I work from home and when Kipling was very new he was in the office with me but on a leash right by my side. We went out frequently. He was calm and happy by my side with safe chew things. Now that he is older (16 months) he is fully trained and completely reliable. And he achieved this reliablility well before six months. 

He still does not have run of the house. He is with me, in my office most of the day. Like Karen and Kodi...if I move, Kipling moves. He stays close. Never a bother, and never a bark. There are times when he must be in the crate when I am home. He is now able to do this just fine. 

I believe that if you create that security and routine with your puppy early you will be very happy you did. This results in a well adjusted predictable puppy. 

Karen - also couldn't agree more with your assessment of Hav's and whether they are independent or not. While Kipling loves to be near me, he is not clingy - in fact he's rather independent. I love this about him...a loving companion dog who does not crowd.


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## Thumper

Karen,

Didn't Tom King help pick Kodi for your family and situation? I do think a good breeder can really match the right personality and level of independence to each home and It looks like Tom did an excellent job of pairing you two together...

Me, on the other hand..I'm probably a well suited home for the SA dogs since I can take her to work with me, my office here...or across town.. and I like the company anyways, she gives me great business advice..ound:

Kara


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## Ellie NY

Thumper said:


> I have to agree with Meghan, you can't always cherry pick the advice you want to hear and assume that what you have cherry picked is what will work. I have awful allergies to just about everything, (or so it seems, somedays) and that his how I ended up choosing this breed, and like Meghan, I have to give her a bath every 5-7 days (depending on what she's been exposed to, pollen/dust levels, etc), keep the house clean, change the air filters, etc. It's not really a 'little' additional investment, its a lifestyle change and commitment.
> 
> I think its a bit unrealistic to believe that a havanese puppy will be content alone in a pen most of the time, with an occasional walk or play session, they call them velcro dogs for a reason.


I don't believe I am cherry-picking advice. I have done a lot of research on puppy training. Rather, I am looking to hear from others who may have made, or need to make, the same choices I do in order to happily co-exist with their pet. It's a little like parenting, you can read all the advice books out there but it's not one size fits all. So, you keep looking until you find the blend that works for you and your children as individuals with distinct preferences, personalities and beliefs.

Aside from bedtime, Eli spends 6:00 - 9:00 AM and 3:00 - 10:00 PM with someone in the family. Additionally, I walk him and play with him for 30 min, 3 x between 9 and 3 with lots of check-ins for hugs and kissed in between. He's certainly not lacking in attention. I don't think it's unreasonable to have boundaries. He's not locked in his crate. He has a spacious Xpen with lots of toys to keep him occuppied. I was simply asking if it's reasonable to have him spend 2 hours at a time, 3 times a day in his Xpen.


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## Ellie NY

Thumper said:


> I have to agree with Meghan, you can't always cherry pick the advice you want to hear and assume that what you have cherry picked is what will work. I have awful allergies to just about everything, (or so it seems, somedays) and that his how I ended up choosing this breed, and like Meghan, I have to give her a bath every 5-7 days (depending on what she's been exposed to, pollen/dust levels, etc), keep the house clean, change the air filters, etc. It's not really a 'little' additional investment, its a lifestyle change and commitment.
> 
> I think its a bit unrealistic to believe that a havanese puppy will be content alone in a pen most of the time, with an occasional walk or play session, they call them velcro dogs for a reason.


I don't believe I am cherry-picking advice. I have done a lot of research on puppy training. Rather, I am looking to hear from others who may have made, or need to make, the same choices I do in order to happily co-exist with their pet. It's a little like parenting, you can read all the advice books out there but it's not one size fits all. So, you keep looking until you find the blend that works for you and your children as individuals with distinct preferences, personalities and beliefs.

Aside from bedtime, Eli spends 6:00 - 9:00 AM and 3:00 - 10:00 PM with someone in the family. Additionally, I walk him and play with him for 30 min, 3 x between 9 and 3 with lots of check-ins for hugs and kissed in between. He's certainly not lacking in attention. I don't think it's unreasonable to have boundaries. He's not locked in his crate. He has a spacious Xpen with lots of toys to keep him occuppied. I was simply asking if it's reasonable to have him spend 2 hours at a time, 3 times a day in his Xpen.


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## irishnproud2b

Having 2 of my own and having fostered 2, I would say no. That totals 9 hours of the daytime that he's alone. He's only a baby, and a "companion" baby at that. There's so much training to be done! If he's in there 9 hrs of the day and 9, 10 ? hours of the night, there's not a lot of time left for training, loving, bonding or playing. Just MHO.


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## Ellie NY

nycali said:


> I'm interested in hearing about your allergy situation, as I'm contemplating that too. Do you notice you or your kids reacting to your Hav when you are all together in the bottom floor living space? Do you spend a lot of time with your dog during the day? I am interested in knowing if your barrier to second floor is effective or not, since you do spend significant time with your Hav in your living quarters.


I have definitely noticed that we have a reaction to him. My kids sneeze when they've spent time with him. Of course, there's lots of pollen and dust in the air now which they are sensitive to and he goes out a lot rolling in the grass so I'm sure he picks up more. I had asthma that I outgrew 20 years ago. While I don't find myself wheezing, I definitely feel a tightness in my chest. I've even occasionally used an inhaler prescribed to my daughter when her allergies get bad and plan to take us all to the allergist for a visit.

I had a very bad allergic reaction last week when I took him to the vet. I'm allergic to cats and with all the dander in the air I broke out in hives and my eyes nearly swelled shut. Two days of Benadryl seems to have done the trick. Suffice to say, my husband will take him to the vet from now on and I will communicate with the vet by phone.

I purchased a Hepa air filter and placed it near is Xpen. I also purchased Allerpet shampoo and another solution called AllerD, I think, to apply to his skin. I think the filter and shampoo have helped some (haven't used the solution yet). I wash him once a week, but if it were OK to wash him more I would. I'm hoping with time to get used to him, the allergist's help and constant cleaning things will get better. That's why I am so hesitant to bring him upstairs.


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## Ellie NY

irishnproud2b said:


> Having 2 of my own and having fostered 2, I would say no. That totals 9 hours of the daytime that he's alone. He's only a baby, and a "companion" baby at that. There's so much training to be done! If he's in there 9 hrs of the day and 9, 10 ? hours of the night, there's not a lot of time left for training, loving, bonding or playing. Just MHO.


Kathleen - Just to clarify, it's 6 hours not 9 hours with 30 min breaks in between.


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## krandall

nycali said:


> I'm interested in hearing about your allergy situation, as I'm contemplating that too. Do you notice you or your kids reacting to your Hav when you are all together in the bottom floor living space? Do you spend a lot of time with your dog during the day? I am interested in knowing if your barrier to second floor is effective or not, since you do spend significant time with your Hav in your living quarters.


I can tell you that for me, I am quite allergic to other dog breeds, and I can actually bury my face in Kodi's hair and not have it bother me. (well, except the time I used a shampoo I was allergic to!:biggrin1

Kodi does sleep down stairs in his ex-pen/crate arrangement, but I think I'd be fine with him in bed. We just didn't know in the beginning, and now that he's used to it, that's where he WANTS to sleep. We've tried getting him to sleep with us when we're away on vacation, and he always whines and asks to go into his crate. Even if the door is left wide open, that's where he'd prefer to sleep.


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## Ellie NY

irishnproud2b said:


> Did I miss something? Several mentioned how this companion breed just wants to be with you, and you think keeping him longer in the ex-pen is the answer? Surely I must be missing something...right?


With all due respect, I understand you may be frustrated with my newbie questions and/or approach. Please appreciate that I joined this forum to learn more about Havanese and, more importantly, from a desire to make my puppy happy and healthy. I may make a few mistakes along the way, which is why I'm looking to more experienced owners for advice. Your "advice" in the form of sarcasm is unnecessary and disrespectful. I would think you would be patient and welcoming of new Havanese owners in order to help them avoid mistakes that hurt their dog. Guess I must be missing something....right?


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## krandall

LilyMyLove said:


> I wouldn't plan on getting a Havanese and keeping it off of the second floor. This works for some people (see Kodi) but this is an exception to the rule for this breed in my opinion. They are bred to be companion dogs. You could have a dog with separation anxiety which includes barking, chewing, urinating out of frustration. Or a dog that is sad and depressed because it needs to be quarantined away from the family. Trying it out and having to surrender the animal is not fair to it.


Two things... I want to make it clear that while Kodi sleeps in his crate downstairs, he is with us the vast majority of the time except over night. I even take him with me almost every place I go. So he certainly doesn't lack for human interaction. He would be a very unhappy boy if he did.

However, as far as real separation anxiety is concerned, I know it's real, and something that some people need to deal with with their Hav. But I think that this is largely a temperament issue. I think if you are careful to pick an outgoing, self-confident Hav, and introduce it to increased periods of separation slowly and positively, you are unlikely to run into separation anxiety issues.


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## krandall

irishnproud2b said:


> Did I miss something? Several mentioned how this companion breed just wants to be with you, and you think keeping him longer in the ex-pen is the answer? Surely I must be missing something...right?


Yes. Puppies need to be confined until they are COMPLETELY reliable, both in terms of potty training and safety. OTOH, being confined does NOT mean keeping the puppy confined AWAY from you. The ex-pen should be set up so that the puppy remains in the middle of things.

In our case, we got extra ex-pens so we could panel off various rooms or parts of rooms. While we were eating or I was cooking, Kodi was in his regular ex-pen with a Kong, where he could still see me and I could talk to him, but he couldn't get in trouble. When I worked at my desk, I set the panels up so that he was confined (WITH ME) to the area right around my desk. As he got more reliable, we gated off the kitchen so he had the run of the entire kitchen. Later we added the family room... first the uncarpeted part, then the whole thing. Later still we allowed him access to the whole down stairs. He's still gated from going upstairs.

The point is to confine them, NOT to keep them away from you. Confining them WITH you is the best of all, as long as you aren't doing something (like working in the oven) where they could get hurt.


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## krandall

Thumper said:


> Karen,
> 
> Didn't Tom King help pick Kodi for your family and situation? I do think a good breeder can really match the right personality and level of independence to each home and It looks like Tom did an excellent job of pairing you two together...
> 
> Me, on the other hand..I'm probably a well suited home for the SA dogs since I can take her to work with me, my office here...or across town.. and I like the company anyways, she gives me great business advice..ound:
> 
> Kara


Well, it was Pam, Tom's wife, who worked with me to choose the perfect puppy (along with the trainer I brought to temperament test the puppies) but you're right, I worked closely with my breeder to get a dog who was a good fit for me.

I want to make it abundantly clear though... Kodi is very well balanced AND well trained. He does NOT have ANY signs of "separation anxiety". But neither is he what I would call an "independent" dog. He's my "familiar". He sleeps at my feet most of the day, and goes everywhere with me that dogs are allowed. If I go to the bathroom, he comes too. BUT if I need to go put something in the trash in the garage, I can tell him "Kodi wait quiet" and he will sit by the door and quietly wait for me to return.

This didn't happen over night. As Sylvia said, it took a lot of work and over a year to achieve... and we STILL work on maintaining that state every day. People tend to forget that every time you are interacting with an animal, you are "training" SOMETHING, for good or for bad. You just have to make sure that ALL (or at leat most) of your interactions with your dog are thoughtful, and will reinforce behaviors that you want while NOT reinforcing behaviors you DON'T want.


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## krandall

Ellie NY said:


> Aside from bedtime, Eli spends 6:00 - 9:00 AM and 3:00 - 10:00 PM with someone in the family. Additionally, I walk him and play with him for 30 min, 3 x between 9 and 3 with lots of check-ins for hugs and kissed in between. He's certainly not lacking in attention. I don't think it's unreasonable to have boundaries. He's not locked in his crate. He has a spacious Xpen with lots of toys to keep him occuppied. I was simply asking if it's reasonable to have him spend 2 hours at a time, 3 times a day in his Xpen.


I personally DO think that's too much alone-time for most Hav puppies. I know many breeders who wouldn't place a puppy in a home where they were without companionship this much of the day on a daily basis.


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## Ellie NY

krandall said:


> Yes. Puppies need to be confined until they are COMPLETELY reliable, both in terms of potty training and safety. OTOH, being confined does NOT mean keeping the puppy confined AWAY from you. The ex-pen should be set up so that the puppy remains in the middle of things.
> 
> In our case, we got extra ex-pens so we could panel off various rooms or parts of rooms. While we were eating or I was cooking, Kodi was in his regular ex-pen with a Kong, where he could still see me and I could talk to him, but he couldn't get in trouble. When I worked at my desk, I set the panels up so that he was confined (WITH ME) to the area right around my desk. As he got more reliable, we gated off the kitchen so he had the run of the entire kitchen. Later we added the family room... first the uncarpeted part, then the whole thing. Later still we allowed him access to the whole down stairs. He's still gated from going upstairs.
> 
> The point is to confine them, NOT to keep them away from you. Confining them WITH you is the best of all, as long as you aren't doing something (like working in the oven) where they could get hurt.


Thanks for the sound advise. I kept Eli with me in the office on a long leash. All the while I was concerned about him going potty on my oriental rug, but he was much quieter and just chewed away on his toys. I'll go to the store today and buy a small Xpen to place in my office. Space if pretty tight, but what's important is that he's calm.


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## krandall

Ellie NY said:


> Thanks for the sound advise. I kept Eli with me in the office on a long leash. All the while I was concerned about him going potty on my oriental rug, but he was much quieter and just chewed away on his toys. I'll go to the store today and buy a small Xpen to place in my office. Space if pretty tight, but what's important is that he's calm.


Yay! Sounds like you are on the right track! We have orientals too, and we didn't want them soiled either. I found a big piece of remnant vinyl flooring at Home Depot (it was really cheap) and put that under his ex-pen. That way there was no fear of him soiling the rug.

Kodi is litter box trained, so I always made sure his litter box was available to him too.


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## KSC

Great to hear you're making progress - I remember being so worried that Kipling would bark while I was on a work call - this never happened. He settled happily into the work routine with me.

I did smile when I read Karen's description of Kodi - Kipling is exactly like that. Bathroom - we do this together. Get the mail? Up the stairs we go. If I'm leaving the office for a quick second to grab the phone I started to give Kipling the stay and wait command so that he didn't follow me absolutely everywhere. He did start on his leash but eventually earned the freedom to roam the office...this ended up being three steps, under the desk, curl and flop.

I love having him with me. He is zero bother but again I must agree with Karen - this came with routine, consistency, and specific training. 

Good for you for working on your situation so that you find what works for you and your sweet puppy. 

(And btw - one last thing - as a newbie - I had NEVER owned a dog before - I would have asked very similar questions to those you are asking. My original plan was to crate Kipling during the day while I worked and to go get him to take him out and play...I honestly thought that would work just fine....it's better the way it evolved - so take heart - none of us had all the answers when we first got our fur boys)


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## LilyMyLove

:first: I like this one. :hail: Even better.



Thumper said:


> Like a gold shiny sticker on the posts?? lol...IDK, Geri maybe we should research this function or Demand it....ound: it'd be like the opposite of the fish smack????
> 
> 
> 
> ???
> 
> 
> 
> ??
> 
> 
> 
> hahaa..there are some really funny smileys out there (and mean ones, wow!)
> 
> Kara


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## LilyMyLove

Ellie NY said:


> I don't believe I am cherry-picking advice. I have done a lot of research on puppy training. Rather, I am looking to hear from others who may have made, or need to make, the same choices I do in order to happily co-exist with their pet. It's a little like parenting, you can read all the advice books out there but it's not one size fits all. So, you keep looking until you find the blend that works for you and your children as individuals with distinct preferences, personalities and beliefs.
> 
> Aside from bedtime, Eli spends 6:00 - 9:00 AM and 3:00 - 10:00 PM with someone in the family. Additionally, I walk him and play with him for 30 min, 3 x between 9 and 3 with lots of check-ins for hugs and kissed in between. He's certainly not lacking in attention. I don't think it's unreasonable to have boundaries. He's not locked in his crate. He has a spacious Xpen with lots of toys to keep him occuppied. I was simply asking if it's reasonable to have him spend 2 hours at a time, 3 times a day in his Xpen.


:decision:

Im glad you put him in such a nice ex pen. That is preferable to a crate. It really is a lot of time for a small puppy to be alone, however, could you move it up to your office? I don't think keeping your dog with you is defying boundries or creating an insecure attachment, quite the opposite. I was with Lily a lot when she was young. She does not bark when I am gone now and when I return she was sleeping, waiting for me to come home.


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## LilyMyLove

krandall said:


> Two things... I want to make it clear that while Kodi sleeps in his crate downstairs, he is with us the vast majority of the time except over night. I even take him with me almost every place I go. So he certainly doesn't lack for human interaction. He would be a very unhappy boy if he did.
> 
> However, as far as real separation anxiety is concerned, I know it's real, and something that some people need to deal with with their Hav. But I think that this is largely a temperament issue. I think if you are careful to pick an outgoing, self-confident Hav, and introduce it to increased periods of separation slowly and positively, you are unlikely to run into separation anxiety issues.


I apologize Karen, I was typing hastily and did not want to imply that Kodi is left to fend for himself all the time, I know from being on the forum that is simply not the case. I meant that he sleeps downstairs.

I didn't want people who were grasping at straws to get the impression that some Havanese are trained to be more independent by not being babied and spending time on other floors away from their 'people' as a puppy.

Lily is just as comfortable sleeping with me as sleeping in her crate, and sometimes prefers her crate but she likes to be next to me at night, I live alone with her and thats just how we've always done it. Right now she is around the corner curled up in my closet sleeping on my bathrobe so she is not constantly underfoot, but I think by being with me when she was young, I taught her to feel secure and comfortable, to know that if Im at home, Im available to her if she needs or wants to sit with me-so now she can walk off and do her own thing and be okay with it. :wink:


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## krandall

KSC said:


> I love having him with me. He is zero bother but again I must agree with Karen - this came with routine, consistency, and specific training.


Kodi is no BOTHER, but he's an incredible time-waster. I just can't keep my hands off him. Nor can I resist the, "will you play with me?" look.:biggrin1:


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## Thumper

krandall said:


> Well, it was Pam, Tom's wife, who worked with me to choose the perfect puppy (along with the trainer I brought to temperament test the puppies) but you're right, I worked closely with my breeder to get a dog who was a good fit for me.
> 
> I want to make it abundantly clear though... Kodi is very well balanced AND well trained. He does NOT have ANY signs of "separation anxiety". But neither is he what I would call an "independent" dog. He's my "familiar". He sleeps at my feet most of the day, and goes everywhere with me that dogs are allowed. If I go to the bathroom, he comes too. BUT if I need to go put something in the trash in the garage, I can tell him "Kodi wait quiet" and he will sit by the door and quietly wait for me to return.
> 
> This didn't happen over night. As Sylvia said, it took a lot of work and over a year to achieve... and we STILL work on maintaining that state every day. People tend to forget that every time you are interacting with an animal, you are "training" SOMETHING, for good or for bad. You just have to make sure that ALL (or at leat most) of your interactions with your dog are thoughtful, and will reinforce behaviors that you want while NOT reinforcing behaviors you DON'T want.


Wives know best :biggrin1:

I think I may have mis-communicated my thought(s), I am not so much talking about Separation anxiety as I am the "Velcro Gene", I do think the best of breeders probably have litters where some are more content entertaining themselves while others are a bit more like velcro, I don't think a velcro dog means they are maladjusted in any way or even that the breeder failed somehow not making them more self involved. But I DO think that the velcro gene havs are more predisposed to develop SA than the, ehh...we'll call them button-on havs (for fun).

Training does work, changing a personality or disposition..I'm not convinced that can be done...like training a dog to be a lap lounging dog when they prefer the cool floor, or vice versa..some behaviors are intrinsic to their nature..Shredding, is a good example ..ound: No matter how many times you tell them no, they can't resist the urge.......its like Havanese crack...ound:

And you are very wise on your training principles, I will admit I am guilty of reinforcing some behaviors, I can't help it...lol, well, I suppose I could. I'm more of a pick your battles type of person. While I'm strict with the housebreaking, I may turn a blind eye to say, her hyperactive fits when I come home..If I leave for 20 minutes, her reaction is such that you'd think I just came back froma 18 month tour on a battleship 

Kara


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## KSC

LilyMyLove said:


> .. so she is not constantly underfoot, but I think by being with me when she was young, I taught her to feel secure and comfortable, to know that if Im at home, Im available to her if she needs or wants to sit with me-so now she can walk off and do her own thing and be okay with it. :wink:


I tend to agree that this is what I've experienced with Kipling. By investing in him early and helping him develop his own sense of confidence, he's now quite settled. Recently he started to sprawl in the middle of our main floor hallway while the family is either on that floor, moving around or downstairs watching TV. Sometimes he's glued to us, and sometimes he's not. The important thing is that I know he's secure.


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## Thumper

KSC said:


> I tend to agree that this is what I've experienced with Kipling. By investing in him early and helping him develop his own sense of confidence, he's now quite settled. Recently he started to sprawl in the middle of our main floor hallway while the family is either on that floor, moving around or downstairs watching TV. Sometimes he's glued to us, and sometimes he's not. The important thing is that I know he's secure.


I agree with this, too..... With age, I think they get more confident and secure within the relationship. She recently started ditching me around 5 every afternoon to go wait at the door for her daddy, he's out of town this week so she's going to be disappointed.

Today, she stayed there for 2.5 hours until I took her on a walk...
Her need to be close to me has evolved a little to her need to have me within range of sight..

Kara


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## krandall

LilyMyLove said:


> I apologize Karen, I was typing hastily and did not want to imply that Kodi is left to fend for himself all the time, I know from being on the forum that is simply not the case. I meant that he sleeps downstairs.


Hi Meghan, I know you didn't mean that I left Kodi alone. I was just explaining in more detail fro the OP. And I TOTALLY agree that it is a slow process getting these guys confident about being on their own. I guess I was never one to let my babies cry either, and they are both very capable, self reliant young men.

Karen


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## KSC

button-on havs - love this term!


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## Ellie NY

KSC said:


> Good for you for working on your situation so that you find what works for you and your sweet puppy.
> 
> (And btw - one last thing - as a newbie - I had NEVER owned a dog before - I would have asked very similar questions to those you are asking. My original plan was to crate Kipling during the day while I worked and to go get him to take him out and play...I honestly thought that would work just fine....it's better the way it evolved - so take heart - none of us had all the answers when we first got our fur boys)


Thanks for the kind words of support. Eli is my first dog as an adult. Twenty years ago my parents owned a Rottweiler but he was aggressive and untrained. I pretty much stayed clear of him as he bit me painfully several times. I SO want Eli to be happy. There's a lot of information out there about crate training. Maybe it is a faster way to housebreak dogs but it breaks my heart to hear him cry. Eli's personality is definitely developing. He's "clingy" at times and surprisingly independent at others. I just came home from dropping my son at school (gone about 10 min) and came to his Xpen to take him to the office. He didn't want to leave! He was sleepy and wanted to continue napping in his crate. Go figure. I'm waiting for his bossy bark when he lets me know he's ready for company


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## KSC

Yes it's about tuning in to their needs and getting a way that works for you. I do use the crate for Kipling - like Kodi, Kipling sleeps in his crate at night - he's in the kitchen on the same level as the kids' rooms. Our room is one floor up. He is happy and quiet there...but when we first got him he was not. He barked and made quite a fuss...so he started sleeping crated but in our bedroom and eventually we moved him out. 

There are times during the day when Kipling also sleeps in his crate quite fine. When he's ready to come out he 'calls' me with a quick bark and then I talk to him and go get him. 

You're right to invest yourself - the payoff of a balanced dog is so high!


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## KSC

Had to post these - this is my view this morning from my chair...someone needs to be very close to me today....now I just need to make sure I don't move my chair but at least my feet are warm!


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## KSC

Of course there are times mister would rather be more comfy so then he relocates to the bed in the office (we use this as a guest room too)...so life is good for Kipling..no wonder he's quiet!


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## Ellie NY

KSC said:


> Of course there are times mister would rather be more comfy so then he relocates to the bed in the office (we use this as a guest room too)...so life is good for Kipling..no wonder he's quiet!
> 
> View attachment 32442
> 
> 
> View attachment 32443


Kipling is so darn cute. His coat looks wavier than Eli's. Eli has a very straight, soft coat. His hair has really grown out in the past 2 weeks and he looks like a huge powder puff. I tried to take pictures while we took a walk this afternoon but he was not interested in posing.

I think I'm going to keep his hair in a puppy cut. I have a groomer coming to the house next Friday. Figured it was worth the extra $15 to have someone come to the house. This way, I can supervise and be completely certain he is treated gently. Also, given the terrible allergic reaction I had from being in the vets office, I figured it would be safer for me not to enter a groomer's office or for Eli to come home with other dog's dander on his coat. If my husband only knew how much I was spending I'd be sleeping in the crate. :jaw:


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## KSC

LOL!! Oh I know...I take Kipling every six weeks - without that he matt's and it's just not nice for anyone. As it is he's quite long by week five and he does look wavier...this is what he looks like in a fresh puppy cut - we love him this length.


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## krandall

Thumper said:


> Wives know best :biggrin1:


You'd better believe it!:biggrin1:



Thumper said:


> I think I may have mis-communicated my thought(s), I am not so much talking about Separation anxiety as I am the "Velcro Gene", I do think the best of breeders probably have litters where some are more content entertaining themselves while others are a bit more like velcro, I don't think a velcro dog means they are maladjusted in any way or even that the breeder failed somehow not making them more self involved. But I DO think that the velcro gene havs are more predisposed to develop SA than the, ehh...we'll call them button-on havs (for fun).
> 
> Training does work, changing a personality or disposition..I'm not convinced that can be done...like training a dog to be a lap lounging dog when they prefer the cool floor, or vice versa..some behaviors are intrinsic to their nature..Shredding, is a good example ..ound: No matter how many times you tell them no, they can't resist the urge.......its like Havanese crack...ound:


I agree. It's BOTH nature and nurture. And some will be predisposed to be more laid-back and accepting, while others more intense and needy. I think the problem sometimes comes when people are strongly attached to the puppy who ONLY wants to sit in their lap, instead of wandering off to explore and play with his sibs too. You certainly want a people-oriented dog, but for me, it was also VERY important that the dog have a good sense of self confidence. I don't think a timid, wallflower lap dog would make a good agility dog! And that doesn't mean that those "Klingon" puppies can't be the perfect pet for the right family too... especially for an older couple. BUT you have to keep in mind the innate personality and temperament of the puppy, and work with that to reduce any possible problems, while encouraging their strengths.

If you know you have a puppy that is a little shy, make sure you do EXTRA socialization. If the puppy is a little clingy work a little harder on teaching the puppy to self-sooth and keep himself occupied without his "person" with him every second. If you've got one who's a bit on the territorial side, (not usually a problem with Havs, but something you see a lot with terriers, for instance) work on lots of socialization and work on getting them to accept new people and dogs into their "space" from an early age.

None of these things makes a dog a "bad" dog... They just dictate how you need to work with the dog if you want to avoid problems. Often a personality attribute can be a double edged sword... sometimes good, sometimes bad. For instance, Kodi LOVES to work. He is really driven. This makes him a really fun dog to train. It also means he HATES waiting around (from his perspective, "doing nothing") while us dumb humans have something explained during class. So with him, the flip side is that I have to work HARD to keep him from being a nuisance barker during down-time in classes. I've had to learn various "management" techniques while at the same time working on getting it through his head that the mouthiness is NOT OK. For a while, it got so bad that he couldn't keep his mouth shut for the 10 seconds between me setting him up, and the judge telling me I could start the course in Rally! Fortunately, his tolerance has increased... otherwise I might have wrung his everlovin' little neck by now!ound:



Thumper said:


> And you are very wise on your training principles, I will admit I am guilty of reinforcing some behaviors, I can't help it...lol, well, I suppose I could. I'm more of a pick your battles type of person. While I'm strict with the housebreaking, I may turn a blind eye to say, her hyperactive fits when I come home..If I leave for 20 minutes, her reaction is such that you'd think I just came back froma 18 month tour on a battleship
> Kara


We all pick what's important to us to work on, and that's absolutely fine!!! Most people are just thrilled if their dog will walk on a leash without choking itself. Only a few of us want to refine it to the point of off-leash formal obedience type heeling. As far as the greetings are concerned, I happen to think that wonderful greeting is one of the most charming things about Havs! I wouldn't change it for the world!!!


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## krandall

Ellie NY said:


> Thanks for the kind words of support. Eli is my first dog as an adult. Twenty years ago my parents owned a Rottweiler but he was aggressive and untrained. I pretty much stayed clear of him as he bit me painfully several times. I SO want Eli to be happy. There's a lot of information out there about crate training. Maybe it is a faster way to housebreak dogs but it breaks my heart to hear him cry. Eli's personality is definitely developing. He's "clingy" at times and surprisingly independent at others. I just came home from dropping my son at school (gone about 10 min) and came to his Xpen to take him to the office. He didn't want to leave! He was sleepy and wanted to continue napping in his crate. Go figure. I'm waiting for his bossy bark when he lets me know he's ready for company


Just make sure you don't go right to him when he starts to bark, or he'll start demand barking. Try to catch him when you just hear him rustling around. (if you can't hear from your office, a baby monitor cab help) If he does start to bark, try to find at least a few seconds of quiet before you go to him. (you can hide around the corner so you can get there quickly) Then tell him "Good quiet waiting!!!" and take him out for a super cuddle and a treat. Over time he'll know that you won't take him out of the pen UNLESS he's being quiet. With Kodi, we STILL make it a habit to walk right by, with no eye contact, and hang up our coats before we get him out... just to continue to reinforce that he needs to wait quietly. Once he's out, we have a "welcome home" party!:whoo:


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## puppyinmyyard

juliav said:


> This is really quite sad.  Havanese is a companion dog and it's number one job is to keep its' human company. I think it's cruel to get a dog who is bred to do one thing, be a companion, and keep it separated from it's human counterpart. This puppy didn't have a choice, but the person who bought it did. I am sorry if I sound harsh.


I don't understand this.........I realized Havanese are companion dogs and the reason I crate her and put her in the ex pen for a limited amount of time is so that eventually she will be able to be able to run around the house. We are talking about puppies and training them, not using the crate or an ex pen as a place to "keep" an older dog.


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## puppyinmyyard

Ellie-I would be very grateful is you would come back and tell us what the trainer told you, especially regarding the barking in the crate and ex pend. I have a piece of vinyl flooring that I put under Chloe's ex pen so I can move it around with me during the day if needed. Most of the time she is quite content to be there.......it's mainly in the morning when the kids are getting ready for school that she barks, and in the evening when I'm cooking dinner and they are doing homework. I always make she she has been fed/pottied/and played with before I put her in the ex pen. And I do reward her with "good Quiet Chloe" when she is quiet too. It's just mainly those two times that we are struggling with.


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## nycali

Ellie, thank you for all your questions and sharing with us your efforts and trials. I appreciate it so much and find it so educational. I'm waiting to find the right pup for me, and joined this forum to learn more, and ask all sorts of questions too. Please keep us posted, because I definitely want to know how things are going, and I feel you are trying everything you can to adjust/work it out with your whole family.


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## shimpli

Puppyinmyyard: Those times were the most difficult times for me too. But it has improved a lot. The first month, I put my puppy in the crate and carried it with me to my daughter's bedroom while I prepare her for school, to the bathroom and to the kitchen while I cook. I put it in the kitchen table and I even gave her the kibbles one by one to keep her happy in there while I finish dinner. Slowly I began to keep her crate nearby but not so close for her to see me and eventually I think she was ready to be in the expen without seeing me but knowing I was in the house. It was a matter of time and making the changes slowly. It worked. Now she is in the expen in the first floor while I prepare my daughter in the second floor. She doesn't bark but she is looking up ALL the time waiting for me. 
When I am cooking or eating, she can be in the expen taking a nap, eating her food or in the crate in the kitchen with me. So, feel confident that things will improve soon. Good luck !


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## puppyinmyyard

Thank you Teresita!! It is so nice to hear that it got better with time and adjusting to what works. I can already see a big difference in the last couple of weeks, I'm really trying to work out what Chloe wants when she is barking and trying to figure out how to work it in with our schedule. I've already discovered giving her a kong toy filled with kibble keeps her happy for a bit in the morning.


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## Ellie NY

LilyMyLove said:


> :decision:
> 
> Im glad you put him in such a nice ex pen. That is preferable to a crate. It really is a lot of time for a small puppy to be alone, however, could you move it up to your office? I don't think keeping your dog with you is defying boundries or creating an insecure attachment, quite the opposite. I was with Lily a lot when she was young. She does not bark when I am gone now and when I return she was sleeping, waiting for me to come home.


Having a puppy means compromise. I purchased another Xpen so Eli now spends the day with me in my office. There's definitely no barking, except when I leave the room for a few minutes to grab a cup of coffee or use the restroom. Since he can't navigate the stairs going down, I choose to leave him for a few minutes rather than carry him. I give him the "quiet" command which works for a few minutes and try to not reinforce his barking by speaking to him when he isn't, especially if I'm only gone for a few minutes. I hope he gets to the stage where Lily is at soon, so I can leave the room or the house for short periods of time without him barking and me feeling guilty.


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## Ellie NY

KSC said:


> View attachment 32444


That's the cutest puppy cut I've seen and Eli looks just like that except he's more cream with buff colored ears. I have a groomer coming to the house and will show her this. It may be too soon for a groomer but I figure it's better if he gets used to one earlier rather than later. Now that the weather is getting colder I've had folks mention that a puppy cut may be too short but since the house is well heated and I plan to purchase Eli a winter coat (oh my gosh, I sound like a lunatic!:biggrin1 I think short will be OK.


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## KSC

Short will be fine...shaved not so much but short will be just fine. And they do look so darned cute in their coats!



Be sure to post pix when you have them.


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## motherslittlehelper

That is an exceptionally cute puppy cut on Kipling (though you already know that I think he is cute in ANY form)! Makes a person want to pick him up and just squeeze him. Really like the way his face looks. Your groomer does an excellent job!


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## KSC

motherslittlehelper said:


> That is an exceptionally cute puppy cut on Kipling (though you already know that I think he is cute in ANY form)! Makes a person want to pick him up and just squeeze him. Really like the way his face looks. Your groomer does an excellent job!


Thank you! Kipling feels very well loved here.



It took several attempts as those of you who were around then know to get to a point where we were happy and clear about what we liked on him. It's not a one size fits all and as long as you keep talking to your groomer and tweaking as you go you eventually get there...now we're on an every six week cycle that's working for us. Expensive but worth it because he doesn't matt like he used to when he was longer...


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## Thumper

Ellie NY said:


> Having a puppy means compromise. I purchased another Xpen so Eli now spends the day with me in my office. There's definitely no barking, except when I leave the room for a few minutes to grab a cup of coffee or use the restroom. Since he can't navigate the stairs going down, I choose to leave him for a few minutes rather than carry him. I give him the "quiet" command which works for a few minutes and try to not reinforce his barking by speaking to him when he isn't, especially if I'm only gone for a few minutes. I hope he gets to the stage where Lily is at soon, so I can leave the room or the house for short periods of time without him barking and me feeling guilty.


That's awesome. I think he probably is comforted and just knowing he can see you if he needs to and probably naps more and is more calm, or so I'd guess.

You will get to the stage where he'll be okay while your out, but be careful with feeling guilty when you do leave, so he won't sense that and feed off of it.

I started with small increments of 10 minutes or so, leaving the house for a quick drive and then coming back, and they eventually realize that you'll be home soon.

Kara


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## krandall

Ellie NY said:


> Having a puppy means compromise. I purchased another Xpen so Eli now spends the day with me in my office. There's definitely no barking, except when I leave the room for a few minutes to grab a cup of coffee or use the restroom. Since he can't navigate the stairs going down, I choose to leave him for a few minutes rather than carry him. I give him the "quiet" command which works for a few minutes and try to not reinforce his barking by speaking to him when he isn't, especially if I'm only gone for a few minutes. I hope he gets to the stage where Lily is at soon, so I can leave the room or the house for short periods of time without him barking and me feeling guilty.


Good for you! I wouldn't worry or feel guilty for those short periods where you leave him to go to the bathroom or to get a cup of tea. In time, he will learn that you always come back after these brief absences, and he'll get less anxious about it. When he's less anxious, he'll probably fuss less.

In the end, though, once he's reliably house trained, you'll STILL probably have a "little buddy" following you to the kitchen when you prepare tea, and yes, even into the bathroom!:biggrin1:


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