# Do the Crooked legs (CD) appear more with bigger Havanese? and other health issues?



## Parrothedd (Oct 1, 2014)

Our Coco was 11 years old when he passed away and weighed a trim 21 lbs. He had bowed legs, with one that turned out sideways. That did not hampered him at all and no Vet worried about it. What was a problem was his health issues. He was atypical Addison's, had bladder stones and died of Lymphoma. We loved his size and would want a larger Havanese but worry if this health problem is a trend in larger Havanese. We do not want to show or breed and would not have traded our time with Coco for the world. We just are doing more homework this time.

I just read about this study at this web page which I will add here. Does anyone know about this study or have further information on this subject?
------------------------------------
If you are a breeder, I hope this page has provided you with some food for thought, education and hope for the future. If you are a puppy buyer, I hope the information here, will enable you to be more educated about the Havanese breed and help you to be able to chose your breeder
and future puppy more carefully. Again, not all CD dogs have health problems 
but too many of them do. Like any syndrome or disease, it can very well carry with it 
other problems besides just the bone deformity.

(All pictures on this site are of AKC registered Havanese. 
All pictures were used 'as is'
and were not morphed or altered in any way to change the proportions.
All pictures are used here, with permission)
©Copyright 1998-2006 by ERA'S Havanese

How can you help?

Keith Murphy and his team at Texas A&M University (TAMU) are underway in an important study. We need to raise $200,000 to fund this research. If you own a Havanese or breed Havanese, then please help! There are two ways to financially help.

1. Join "Friends of HEART" at http://www.havanese.net/heart/default.htm

2. Buy "The Havanese" by Diane Klumb at: www.lulu.com. All proceeds to this wonderful book are donated by Diane to the TAMU project!


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I think that study is about 8 years old now. The location of the different genes they found for CD was later validated by a couple of other studies a few years later, that were more specific in finding the exact genes that produce it, but those later studies found the exact genes, at the same location on the same chromosome as the TAMU study just found as a cluster of different genes in dogs with CD and dogs without symptoms. _ remember it very well. _[/I]


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Dogs with larger bones do have more curvature than fine boned dogs, just because of the way the bones work together. C D is obvious though, and not this normal curvature in heavier boned do

having trou ble posting without weird stuff happening to the text and chaera ters b eing inserted......
[/I][/I][/I]


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I know about the studies in pretty good detail. _t c aused a nasty split in the breed-the second such split. There are still many in denial, in spite of current s cience_[/I]


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

CD is a caused by a double insert of a parti cular gene -FGF4, that pushes some c lose to that loc us out of their ideal position, so it's kind of a crapshoot what c omes out of it as a result. With current sc ienc e, a genetic test could be developed, and it eliminated from the bnreed in a couple of generations, but there are still a lot of people in denial.


Google FGF4 gene dogs, and you should find lots more information


----------



## Parrothedd (Oct 1, 2014)

*Is this crooked leg gene tied to other health problems?*

Thank you Tom for this info. I guess the bigger Havaneses and the breed standard both have these legs. But I wonder if a dog is deemed by the breeder to be ""limited" and not for show, are they higher risk for the health problems?? I love the Havanese, but I am trying to figure out my best chances for a healthy one. Coco was such a great dog but his health problems almost did us in.


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Breed Standard calls for straight legs.


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

One version mistakingly also had the phrase 'short legged dog


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

which caused all sorts of confusion, including with judges


----------



## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

Parrothedd said:


> Thank you Tom for this info. I guess the bigger Havaneses and the breed standard both have these legs. But I wonder if a dog is deemed by the breeder to be ""limited" and not for show, are they higher risk for the health problems?? I love the Havanese, but I am trying to figure out my best chances for a healthy one. Coco was such a great dog but his health problems almost did us in.


Limited does not mean that the dog could have health problems. It just means that the breeder isnt selling it to a show home.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

SJ1998 said:


> Limited does not mean that the dog could have health problems. It just means that the breeder isnt selling it to a show home.


Actually, although, ultimately, it also means the dog can't be shown in conformation, the intent is that the dog cannot/should not be bred:

(from the AKC web site):

"Limited Registration means that the dog is registered but no litters produced by that dog are eligible for registration.

Chapter 3, Section 4A of the AKC's Rules Applying to Registration and Discipline states the following: "Limited Registration may be requested for a dog when application for individual registration of the dog is submitted, provided the application, together with a request for such limitation, is filed by the owner(s) of the litter at birth.

No offspring of a dog for which Limited Registration has been granted is eligible for registration. Each registration certificate for such dog shall carry notice of the limitation, and the limitation shall continue, regardless of any change of ownership, unless and until the owner(s) of the litter at birth shall apply to AKC for removal of the limitation."


----------



## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

My beautiful dog Django is almost 11, diagnosed with Addisons 8 years ago,ton of health problems, has bowed front legs (which have never been an issue, we think it makes him look more studly) and he's 10.5 lbs.


----------



## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

krandall said:


> Actually, although, ultimately, it also means the dog can't be shown in conformation, the intent is that the dog cannot/should not be bred:
> 
> (from the AKC web site):
> 
> ...


Thank you for clarifying that. It is not due to health defects in the dog though, right? Because it would have the same parents as dogs on a full, assuming there are some dogs in each litter that are show. More that it goes to pet home (keeping dogs from going to unscrupulous owners potential puppy mill among other reasons).


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

SJ1998 said:


> Thank you for clarifying that. It is not due to health defects in the dog though, right? Because it would have the same parents as dogs on a full, assuming there are some dogs in each litter that are show. More that it goes to pet home (keeping dogs from going to unscrupulous owners potential puppy mill among other reasons).


Yes, there are many, MANY puppies that could very well be show dogs, but the breeders want to protect their lines from unscrupulous (or even just unknowledgeable) breeding. Also, there are many Havenese puppies born that don't have anything physically "wrong" with them, but are not correct breed "type"

For instance while Kodi is just barely within standard for size, why would his breeder want him to be bred, when she has his parents, both of whom are in the "preferred" size range, and are more likely to throw offspring of more moderate size? A dog might have too long (or short) a nose, too loose a tail, feet that turn slightly out. (which is NOT the same as bowed legs, and is NOT in any way a health concern, but you don't want to breed for it) Or it might be poor coat type, round eyes, a bite that is not quite show quality&#8230; All of these things would make a breeder want to remove a dog from the gene pool, but won't in ANY way affect the health of that particular dog.

The majority of puppies of every breed are sold with "limited" registration. If a breeder is NOT selling the majority of their puppies with limited registration, that, in itself, would be a red flag for me that the breeder was not being discriminating enough in their breeding practices.


----------



## Parrothedd (Oct 1, 2014)

Wow, this is really helping me to understand all of this lingo. Thanks to all of you for sharing. One question I have, Coco's bowed legs (one of which turned out) did not show up until later. I think I read on this forum that the defect does not show up until later.

So how does a breeder know if her puppy is going to have bowed legs??


----------



## Parrothedd (Oct 1, 2014)

*Bowed legs, Addison's and other health problems.*



littlebuddy said:


> My beautiful dog Django is almost 11, diagnosed with Addisons 8 years ago,ton of health problems, has bowed front legs (which have never been an issue, we think it makes him look more studly) and he's 10.5 lbs.


I am so sorry to here you have many of the same health problems. Coco was diagnosed as atypical Addison's when he was about 8 years old also. He almost died but for the heroic efforts of his Vet. This is the Vet that found out he had Addison's. We don't know when he got it but it could account for him getting sick all the time.
Coco's legs were never a problem but his bladder stones, Addison's and lymphoma were. He was deemed handsome by everyone and had beautiful teeth. He was 21lbs and lean. His parents were both show dogs but I don't know the extent of the health testing. I found one his parents on the OFFA.org web site. But it doesn't doing any good now to rehash his history. When I can get over my grief I will get another Havanese but this time I hope I can get a healthy one by doing my homework.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Parrothedd said:


> Wow, this is really helping me to understand all of this lingo. Thanks to all of you for sharing. One question I have, Coco's bowed legs (one of which turned out) did not show up until later. I think I read on this forum that the defect does not show up until later.
> 
> So how does a breeder know if her puppy is going to have bowed legs??


Tom is probably a better person to answer how early bowed legs are likely to show up. Some puppies we see on the forum have pretty obviously bowed legs even as fairly young puppies. It seems to me that the most common time for people to discover it is when they are first trimmed, which tends to be between 4-6 months.

If you want to be really cautious about it, buy from a breeder who will give you "soaped" pictures of both parents (the dog is wet down with shampoo, so that you can really see the structure under all that cute fluffy hair) and is willing to soap the puppies and go over their structure with you. If you are buying from a line of dogs with several generations of straight legs, you have a much better chance of getting a straight legged puppy.

And don't think that just because a dog is a champion it has straight legs. Unfortunately, a LOT of dogs manage to get their championship in spite of crooked legs. All that hair can cover a lot of sins!


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Sorry, but I don't know at what age it happens. Back in the late '90s, there were a smart group of concerned breeders who had researched a large mass of pedigrees of dogs who had produced health problems. They were not able to isolate it to any one line, simply basing it on pedigree.

Someone noticed that the one thing the dogs had in common that were producing the problems had short, bowed legs. Those dogs were also what is called long and low.

As soon as this was brought up, a group of people, commonly referred to as the rude screamers, shouted down any effort to get it out of the breed. Bow legged dogs doing just fine in the AKC ring, mainly due to the short breed decription which included the phrase short-legged dog when the breed first went AKC. Pam pretty much was AKC judges education then. After one of the first tv shows, the judge was asked why he put up that dog, and he answered that it was the only short-legged dog in the ring. it's been a very difficult thing to overcome since then.

now that the genes have been exactly isolated, a genetic test could be developed with some fund raising, and it could be eliminated from the breed in a couple of generations with genetic testing. This would require universal acceptance that it is a problem, and this has been an impossible thing to get anywhere close to.

I invented soaped pictures in the late '90s. We have the first ones on 35mm. We've soaped hundreds of puppies since then. Find the video in our youtube videos of nike swimming. Somewhere in there I make the comment that we don't have to take soap pictures, but just bring them down to the lake. notice nike's legs as she's standing at the shoreline soaking wet. those are the legs you should want.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Oh, besides what Tom and i have written, I DO want to point something out that has nothing to do with either breeders or genetics. It is ALSO possible for a puppy to develop ONE bent leg if it is dropped or allowed to jump from too high before the growth plates are closed. If the front legs are both bowed, it is most likely genetic. If only one leg is bowed, it can sometimes be hard to tell whether it is a genetic problem or an old injury unless you know the dog's exact history, and can pinpoint a fall or drop. It doesn't even have to be a severe enough fall to cause the pup to yelp or show signs of discomfort at the time of the injury.

So, make very sure that the pup isn't jumping off things it shouldn't. As a rule of thumb, they should never be allowed to jump off something they can't jump up onto independently. The problem is that some very athletic (and/or motivated!) pups can jump much higher than they should jump down from at too young an age. For these precocious pups, you just have to ride herd on them like crazy.

For small dog breeds the danger of damage to immature joints is pretty well over by one year of age.


----------



## Parrothedd (Oct 1, 2014)

*Coco's legs & Photos*

Coco at 21 lbs. was tall and long with both legs bowed but one his left turned sideways. He did not suffer from this now did it hamper his running. I just wonder if his bad health, big size and bowed legs were connected genetically. Here are some photos.


----------



## Parrothedd (Oct 1, 2014)

Parrothedd said:


> Coco at 21 lbs. was tall and long with both legs bowed but one his left turned sideways. He did not suffer from this now did it hamper his running. I just wonder if his bad health, big size and bowed legs were connected genetically. Here are some photos.


You make a very good point. In one of the Havanese books, the author warns that Havanese have no fear of heights. Maybe that is why they allegedly performed in the European circuses. The author warned to be careful of puppies especially. But his crooked legs appeared like other Havanese after 6 months.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Parrothedd said:


> You make a very good point. In one of the Havanese books, the author warns that Havanese have no fear of heights. Maybe that is why they allegedly performed in the European circuses. The author warned to be careful of puppies especially. But his crooked legs appeared like other Havanese after 6 months.


I'm not saying your dog's leg issue WAS caused by a fall&#8230; only that it MIGHT be, unless you know, for sure, that he never fell or jumped at any time. And this kind of injury does show up at about the same age, when the long bones grow differently, depending on whether the joint has been injured or not.


----------

