# Frustrated at grooming failures



## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

So, I took Denver to his groomer's yesterday (she is grooming a few clients out of her home, and has very strict guidelines).
She said that it is not working with him being his current length..aka.. i'm doing a terrible job in between grooms.

I thought I finally had a handle on his grooming, but according to her, I have not. Does anyone know of a good youtube grooming tutorial for havs? Not a cutting/clipping one.. just literally..brushing. Every square inch.

I am frustrated and it's probably compounded by the fact that every good thing that was supposed to happen over the last month and next few months is being cancelled/postponed and my mental energy just can't take another blow at this point. So I need some help on at least ONE front that I can control.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Isn’t he blowing coat? You can’t be hard on yourself for missing stuff during that stage! 

Did she give you any feedback about problem areas? 

I don’t know if it helped because I did it every time, but I quickly brushed around where his harness lays every time I took him on a walk or even took him out to go potty on a lead. 

Definitely comb every day, but sometimes it helps to break it up. My Havanese has a very dense coat and to really comb through him took a long time, especially when he was blowing coat. If I just had a few minutes, I would comb through very quickly through his whole body as a preventative measure, but focus my time on his ears, or his armpits, or an area I knew needed a little more attention. He tolerated this better when he was blowing coat, too, and he gave more more time to work on mats this way before he was “done.” I could work out loose hairs and the beginnings of mats in his tail in the morning and focus on his ears in the afternoon, for instance. 

I have read on the forum that more frequent baths helps during blowing coat. It did help, but what made the biggest difference for me is drying after the bath. I didn’t see it until later because I didn’t blow dry in the summer. My theory is the dryer blows out tiny, fine hairs that don’t get trapped well by the comb or brush and can become the beginning of tiny mats. 

I didn’t find many videos on daily combing when I was learning how. Most were about grooming after a bath, by professional groomers, and they use a technique that reminds me of round brushing for humans - it’s like a faster, almost flicking movement with the brush and it takes a bit longer to get used to. I did find good videos on removing mats, but the problem is the mats are hard to find sometimes during the blowing coat stage. If someone knows of a good combing video, i would love that, too. Anything to make grooming faster and easier is great for me!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Also, I wonder if you can just trim a bit shorter to make it more manageable, like a scissor cut instead of clippers, at this point. I don’t remember the “official” rules about cutting or what applies to you, but if Canada is like the U.S. this may be a fantastic window before they resume dog stuff, and a trim would easily grow back by the end of the summer.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

What kind of brush are you using? Maybe it is the brush that you are using? 
I've always used slicker brushes on my dogs and never had issues with matting IF I brush every 2nd. day. The dogs(Bichon Frise & now Havanese) have had very dense coats that my groomer hand scissors and I keep at longer lengths. I've always laid the dog in my lap with his face towards me, on his side while I sit in the recliner. I starts brushing with the tail and work forward. Flip over and do the other side.
I have bought slicker brushes that have not worked well. They look ok but for some unknown reason just did not work. Maybe that's the problem? I have two combs that I use in the high matt areas after I brush. I use these to make sure that there are no tangles leftover. One is a steel comb, the other is a small(cheap) plastic flea comb.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)




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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

I work in sections. First I brush and then comb through each section. I use the Chris Christensen brass fusion brush followed by the CC 000 buttercomb. If a section needs more work before combing I use the Artero slicker but typically the brass fusion brush is adequate. Mia is longer than usual and this is still keeping the mats away. I have no luck with the CC wooden pin brush except for fluffing while blow drying.


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## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

Thanks guys.

Yes, he is blowing coat. 

Last time I took him in she gave me the problem areas to look for (top of feet, armpits, under his ears, his haunches). I thought I did really well. Apparently not. She said that when he is being dematted, that the ends of his hair is getting damaged, which causes more matting. I get that. But I didn't feel some of the mats she did (she said one was at the ankle bone.. I don't know how i missed that since i was using both the brush and comb on him every day). She didn't even offer any advice, just gave him to me with "this is what he looks like now, this may not be the length for you". That was it. Maybe she was having a bad day, I know I was (I had to walk several blocks back to her house because my car died while I was waiting at a park for him to be finished). I had previously mentioned bringing him in more often because his nails grow fast and that she could brush him out at the midpoint too.

But I'm the one sitting here in tears over not being able to brush my own dog properly. And if I can't keep him good enough, how the hell do I expect to groom the show potential puppy that I'm picking up in 2 weeks. She normally does scissor cut him, but said she didn't have time today to do a cut when I brought him in, but she did do some shaping, etc. Denver isn't a show dog, but I like the longer look on them. So it wouldn't be the end of the world if I did have to cut him down, but I won't be able to do that when we pick up the new puppy. I'm just so disheartened at this stage.

For tools I have an Artero slicker brush, I have the CC buttercomb, the CC foot and face comb, and an Aussiedog comb my groomer gave me that has teeth a bit closer together than the CC). I also have a cheap metal pin brush that I've been playing around with .. Denver hates the slicker brush but doesn't mind the pin brush so much..so I might get a good one of those. I don't know though.

Thanks for the video Dave. I'll check it out.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

mudpuppymama said:


> I work in sections. First I brush and then comb through each section. I use the Chris Christensen brass fusion brush followed by the CC 000 buttercomb. If a section needs more work before combing I use the Artero slicker but typically the brass fusion brush is adequate. Mia is longer than usual and this is still keeping the mats away. I have no luck with the CC wooden pin brush except for fluffing while blow drying.


For me, this youtube is the best illustration I have ever seen on how to work in sections. Otherwise, it is hit or miss. I love his methodical approach and I do not see how a mat can escape you.


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## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

mudpuppymama said:


> For me, this youtube is the best illustration I have ever seen on how to work in sections. Otherwise, it is hit or miss. I love his methodical approach and I do not see how a mat can escape you.


Thank you 
And thanks for reposting it.. you posted it while I was typing out my big response and I missed it!!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Wulfin said:


> Thank you
> And thanks for reposting it.. you posted it while I was typing out my big response and I missed it!!


I hope it helps. Until I watched it I know my grooming was hit or miss, even though I thought I was being thorough!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Don’t get discouraged! Grooming really is a process, and when you start on a new puppy you’re not going to be in the blowing coat stage, and you’ll be able to apply everything you’re learning right now. It’s almost like blowing coat gave me more opportunities to practice and gain experience. A lot of it really clicked for me by the time he was almost done blowing coat, which was kind of annoying. But the things I learned still helped shape the way I have groomed long term. Once you get through this hurdle, it’ll get easier and easier. 

If you have a relationship with the groomer, maybe ask if you can schedule a consultation with her. It sounds like she knows your goals, but if you make it clear that you are committed to the time it will take, and you just feel like you need some guidance, maybe she’ll help. I think sometimes groomers get frustrated because they think the client isn’t willing to take the time to groom, or aren’t honest with themselves about follow through. My guess is she took that frustration out on you that day, but if she knows you really want to learn I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s relieved and happy to show you. If you walk through your process with her, and maybe even show her how you’re doing it, it’s possible she might identify something that might help right away. Even if you’re doing everything right, he may just be hitting a rough patch and it’ll get better, but showing her how you’re doing it may be helpful because she can say, Okay, you’re grooming thoroughly and he’s still matting badly; he really needs to be trimmed to get through the worst of this stage and we’ll work on growing him back out as fast as we even.

It’s NOT a failure to trim him as he’s blowing coat, but I do get the desire to avoid it. Right now my Havanese coat is so long, I’ve been avoiding trimming it even though it needs it. In fact, this has inspired me to work on it today!When the ends are damaged, it’s a lot harder to avoid mats. The rough and uneven ends mean the hair sort of sticks or catches on itself, in the same way teased hair does, and it can hold loose hair in. One thing I wasn’t expecting is that the quality of the coat wasn’t as nice when he was blowing coat. I even posted about it, because I didn’t realize the frizzy looking ends were directly related to his coat changing, I thought it was damage. Some of it probably was, but a lot of it is just the coat changing and there’s nothing to do about it other than wait. Some of the brushing sprays and products can disguise that (I know because I did in on purpose  so it’s possible the ends are in worse shape than they appear. After a while I realized if I kept his coat long, it was going to be a lot more work to make it look good, and it wasn’t going to be as satisfying as trimming and letting it grow out healthier. NOT pushing you to cut it, just know if you have to it will be okay. 

Blowing coat is really a pain, but does end. It forced me to evaluate what I was doing and make adjustments, which is good in a way. That’s why everyone says to get the puppy used to the comb and brush early. You did that, and don’t underestimate the commitment it took, along with keeping him long. I have no doubt you’ll get through this!


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

Don't feel so bad! My groomer can be pretty harsh when she thinks someone is not looking after one of "her dogs"! She actually has a pelt that she cut from a matted Bichon once that she shows to clients with matted dogs. Be happy you were not shown a pelt!!!!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

I was also chastised by the groomer many years ago when I used to use one. Wondered if she was trying to scare me into keep up with Mia better so she did not have to deal with it. I did try my best back then but I was super inexperienced and Mia hated being groomed...I think because of the groomer...! Mia now does not mind it although she would rather be doing something else I am sure.


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## Ltartof (Sep 17, 2018)

I have never dealt with a show dog, and would be afraid to try! That said, I have groomed my previous cockapoo, and I know from experience that if YOU get frantic, the dog willtoo. I think it take a LOT of patience, willingness to go through some bad haircuts, and time. You ultimately figure out how to get to trouble spots, how to get the right equipment for your hands, etc etc. BUt for sure, try to make it good for you... if that means there are errors, so be it. Hair grows... (I apologize in advance to folks who do show dogs, this is all from an amateur dog owner). I try to comb my Havanese every day, sometimes it is fine, sometimes we are not in the mood. I don't push it, that never goes well. And it is never an emergency (ok, once my dog rolled in human feces, THAT was an emergency...).


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Ltartof said:


> I have never dealt with a show dog, and would be afraid to try! That said, I have groomed my previous cockapoo, and I know from experience that if YOU get frantic, the dog willtoo. I think it take a LOT of patience, willingness to go through some bad haircuts, and time. You ultimately figure out how to get to trouble spots, how to get the right equipment for your hands, etc etc. BUt for sure, try to make it good for you... if that means there are errors, so be it. Hair grows... (I apologize in advance to folks who do show dogs, this is all from an amateur dog owner). I try to comb my Havanese every day, sometimes it is fine, sometimes we are not in the mood. I don't push it, that never goes well. And it is never an emergency (ok, once my dog rolled in human feces, THAT was an emergency...).


I love your attitude. I agree completely. It is important to keep grooming as stress free as possible. I do not have a show dog so less pressure for the occasional bad grooming job. May just hear some remarks from the relatives but I can deal with that. Also, if I had a show dog that did not like to be groomed and it was super stressful for the dog, I think I would just go for an easy to maintain cut and not show the dog. Stress is bad for human and canine health. Just not worth it IMO.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Just wanted to say I really admire anyone who attempts home grooming. I think us home groomers should have patience with ourselves as we learn. We did not go to school to learn this and have only one or two dogs to learn on, unlike professional groomers. I think the more we do it the better we get. It just takes time. Hang in there home groomers!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Don't grab with the slicker brush, and pull. Hold some hair between your fingers of one hand, and the other starts on the outer ends of that hair, with a rolling motion, and brushes any tangles out. You do that until you are all the way down to the skin. If you are holding the hair, it's not hurting the dog. You never pull hard. It's sort of a rolling, picking motion. If you have to pull hard, you're probably not rolling enough. That's why the good slicker brushes have a rounded shape.

It has to be brushed out all the way down to the skin. I've seen a lot of people who have the outer part brushed out, but you still can't run a comb through it, down to the skin.

Once you get used to the rolling motion, that's not a pulling force, you can brush a dog out with a slicker brush, without having to hold the hair, unless it's a really tight knot. You just pull the hair back away from the part you're going to work on, but you have to get one section brushed out, all the way down to the skin to be able to do this.

The larger the knots, the longer it takes. Without this correct feel for the motion, it can take exponentially longer.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Tom King said:


> Don't grab with the slicker brush, and pull. Hold some hair between your fingers of one hand, and the other starts on the outer ends of that hair, with a rolling motion, and brushes any tangles out. You do that until you are all the way down to the skin. If you are holding the hair, it's not hurting the dog. You never pull hard. It's sort of a rolling, picking motion. If you have to pull hard, you're probably not rolling enough. That's why the good slicker brushes have a rounded shape.
> 
> It has to be brushed out all the way down to the skin. I've seen a lot of people who have the outer part brushed out, but you still can't run a comb through it, down to the skin.
> 
> ...


Thanks Tom for explaining this. For many years I was guilty of not combing down to the skin. This is so important! I find that if I comb out Mia often enough that I only need a pin brush and comb, and rarely need the slicker. However, she is not in full coat either.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Wulfin said:


> So, I took Denver to his groomer's yesterday (she is grooming a few clients out of her home, and has very strict guidelines).
> She said that it is not working with him being his current length..aka.. i'm doing a terrible job in between grooms.
> 
> I thought I finally had a handle on his grooming, but according to her, I have not. Does anyone know of a good youtube grooming tutorial for havs? Not a cutting/clipping one.. just literally..brushing. Every square inch.
> ...


Well, first, DON'T feel bad, you are learning, and some Havanese coats are tougher than others... even in the same family. Kodi and Pixel are closely related (same sire) and their coats are quite different. So just because you are having trouble with Denver's coat does NOT mean that your new puppy's coat will be exactly the same. Each one is different!

Second, as others have said, If you are truly "brushing", that might be the problem too. Brushes really can't get to the skin unless your dog's coat is quite short. So it fluffs over the top and makes you think you groomed the dog, while they get more and more matted right down by the skin. If you can't get a COMB down all the way to the SKIN, you have knots.

How you get the knots out will vary. With small knots, I tend to grasp between the knot and the skin and work it out with my comb. But I rarely have real "mats" in my dogs' coats because they are all adults now. With larger mats, I sometimes used the slicker the way Tom described. Other times, I used the comb, just carefully teasing the mat apart using just one or two teeth of the comb, working from an edge. either DRY corn starch on a DRY coat or a good grooming spray (I use a combination of Ice on Ice and Spectrum Ten, but everyone has their own favorite) can help a lot when teasing out a mat. (DO NOT use corn starch with ANYTHING wet!!!)

But I did want to say, if your breeder trusts you with a show puppy, she should ALSO be willing to mentor you with the COAT of a show puppy! She should realize that you are going to need help learning to manage the coat of a show puppy. For sure it is a BIG difference! Pam (Tom's wife, and the other "half" of Starborn Havanese, and the one who actually does the grooming  ) Was very kind teaching me how to groom my first Havanese. She showed me how to groom their coats, trim nails and feet, give baths... anything I asked her. I can't imagine your breeder won't help you the same way. Also, she will know more about the specifics of the KIND of coat her lines are likely to produce! So that will help too!

Take a deep breath. You and Denver will survive, and I'm sure you will do great with your show puppy too!


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## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

Thanks guys. I’ve watched several videos of doing line brushing, etc and I’m feeling better (but of course they all use dogs that stand perfectly still). I think I need to invest in an actual grooming table since plopping him on the island in our kitchen is fine (on a towel), But I need something to keep him still and not spinning around, etc. 

Redoing my strategies on a freshly groomed dog probably helps since he was in excellent condition after his groom. The last couple days have gone very well and I’ve been able to comb him easily after using the line brushing techniques (but of course, I thought I was doing okay before, too). The real test will be after his bath next week.

I will be asking my breeder for some “lessons” as well, but that will have to wait until the pandemic is over as she also works in healthcare. I know she’ll have no problems with that. So I’ll use the next weeks to try to perfect my technique and then when things calm down I’ll have her critique me and hopefully I’ll have improved by then on my own as well. 

All in all, I’m feeling better about things.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Wulfin said:


> Thanks guys. I've watched several videos of doing line brushing, etc and I'm feeling better (but of course they all use dogs that stand perfectly still). I think I need to invest in an actual grooming table since plopping him on the island in our kitchen is fine (on a towel), But I need something to keep him still and not spinning around, etc.
> 
> Redoing my strategies on a freshly groomed dog probably helps since he was in excellent condition after his groom. The last couple days have gone very well and I've been able to comb him easily after using the line brushing techniques (but of course, I thought I was doing okay before, too). The real test will be after his bath next week.
> 
> ...


I really like having a regular grooming table! It also makes Mia feel more secure if I put something on it so she is very sure footed. I currently have some rubbery kitchen shelving material on it. Very easy to vacuum.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

The technique with the brush, it’s sort of like getting used to round brushing hair, I think it takes time to get it down. The video that Dave posted, it shows how the dryer really helps provide access, but she is also going so fast, there isn’t time for the hair to fall down and hide the areas lower on the body. It just takes time to get that fast. There are times I have found clips to be really helpful, especially because I only use a dryer after baths. Such as, if he has a mat around the back of his legs, or beneath his tail. Sometimes he’s just wiggly and when he moves I lose my spot in an area that needs extra attention, so I just use clips. I also use them for trimming. It’s just easy for the long hair to cover some areas. He does try to shake out the clips sometimes, but I don’t use them all of the time, and the times I use them it helps enough that I’m persistent and just put them back in. If you don’t have plastic sectioning clips for human hair, I’m not sure I’d buy them, because depending on his coat they may fall right out. But, if you have some kind of lightweight clips around, like even those mini claw clips, it might be worth a shot.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Wulfin said:


> Thanks guys. I've watched several videos of doing line brushing, etc and I'm feeling better (but of course they all use dogs that stand perfectly still). I think I need to invest in an actual grooming table since plopping him on the island in our kitchen is fine (on a towel), But I need something to keep him still and not spinning around, etc.
> 
> Redoing my strategies on a freshly groomed dog probably helps since he was in excellent condition after his groom. The last couple days have gone very well and I've been able to comb him easily after using the line brushing techniques (but of course, I thought I was doing okay before, too). The real test will be after his bath next week.
> 
> ...


Yes, you will DEFINITELY need a grooming table and grooming arm if you are going to try to keep a dog in show coat. You might as well get it now and start learning on Denver!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> I really like having a regular grooming table! It also makes Mia feel more secure if I put something on it so she is very sure footed. I currently have some rubbery kitchen shelving material on it. Very easy to vacuum.


I agree with having something comfy for them to stand on. The best thing I've found are memory foam bath mats from BB&B. They are cheap, and wash beautifully in the washer and dryer. I also use these as crate mats. They soak up water from wet feat after baths, they are TOTALLY non-slip, and they are comfy and cushy under foot.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> The technique with the brush, it's sort of like getting used to round brushing hair, I think it takes time to get it down. The video that Dave posted, it shows how the dryer really helps provide access, but she is also going so fast, there isn't time for the hair to fall down and hide the areas lower on the body. It just takes time to get that fast. There are times I have found clips to be really helpful, especially because I only use a dryer after baths. Such as, if he has a mat around the back of his legs, or beneath his tail. Sometimes he's just wiggly and when he moves I lose my spot in an area that needs extra attention, so I just use clips. I also use them for trimming. It's just easy for the long hair to cover some areas. He does try to shake out the clips sometimes, but I don't use them all of the time, and the times I use them it helps enough that I'm persistent and just put them back in. If you don't have plastic sectioning clips for human hair, I'm not sure I'd buy them, because depending on his coat they may fall right out. But, if you have some kind of lightweight clips around, like even those mini claw clips, it might be worth a shot.


Yes, I've used thise clips at times in the past on Kodi when he still was in full coat. panda lies on her side, so it's not an issue. But Kodi stands while he's being groomed, and using clips to keep hair out of the way has been invaluable at times!


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## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

krandall said:


> Yes, you will DEFINITELY need a grooming table and grooming arm if you are going to try to keep a dog in show coat. You might as well get it now and start learning on Denver!


Do you have any recommendations?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Wulfin said:


> Do you have any recommendations?


I would look at Petedge. Periodically, they sell a "package deal" that i cludes a table, stool and caddy. I can't remember whether you have to buy the grooming arm separately. But it's a really nice set-up. That's what Dave bought me for Christmas when we were expecting Pixel. I love it!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> I would look at Petedge. Periodically, they sell a "package deal" that i cludes a table, stool and caddy. I can't remember whether you have to buy the grooming arm separately. But it's a really nice set-up. That's what Dave bought me for Christmas when we were expecting Pixel. I love it!


My grooming table is also from Petedge. I love it. In fact, I don't think I could live without a grooming table! It is always set up, ready and waiting for one of my "victims"!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> My grooming table is also from Petedge. I love it. In fact, I don't think I could live without a grooming table! It is always set up, ready and waiting for one of my "victims"!


Yes, until my son and his family moved back in with us, I had my geooming set-up in a spare bedroom. Now we HAVE no spare bedrooms, so it is in the family room. ... But it is ALWAYS set up! With 3 Havanese, there is too much grooming to even consider taking it down. We have a (smaller) "traveling version" for our RV too, thought that one DOES get put away after use. &#128521;


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> Yes, until my son and his family moved back in with us, I had my geooming set-up in a spare bedroom. Now we HAVE no spare bedrooms, so it is in the family room. ... But it is ALWAYS set up! With 3 Havanese, there is too much grooming to even consider taking it down. We have a (smaller) "traveling version" for our RV too, thought that one DOES get put away after use. &#128521;


My grooming table is also set up in the family room, even though I have three spare bedrooms upstairs! I don't want to carry dogs up and down for grooming. Ever since Mia hurt her back several years ago we carry dogs up and down to/from bedrooms since our master bedroom is upstairs. I have better lighting in the family room too. I guess people who visit us can tell where my priorities lie! NOTE: You will not likely see my family room on HGTV!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> My grooming table is also set up in the family room, even though I have three spare bedrooms upstairs! I don't want to carry dogs up and down for grooming. Ever since Mia hurt her back several years ago we carry dogs up and down to/from bedrooms since our master bedroom is upstairs. I have better lighting in the family room too. I guess people who visit us can tell where my priorities lie! NOTE: You will not likely see my family room on HGTV!!!


I don't know why I never thought of setting mine up in the family room. Now that it's there, I think it will probably stay there, even once they move out again. In the family room, it is in front of a window, and I think we all enjoy looking out the window while we groom. And yes, the light is MUCh better! I had to use a headlamp to do nails upstairs!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> I don't know why I never thought of setting mine up in the family room. Now that it's there, I think it will probably stay there, even once they move out again. In the family room, it is in front of a window, and I think we all enjoy looking out the window while we groom. And yes, the light is MUCh better! I had to use a headlamp to do nails upstairs!


I agree completely...! Lighting is so important too. Hate using the headlamp unless it is cloudy or night time. I have a gooseneck lamp by my grooming table too which helps. Additional perk is for my cat...he loves sunning himself on the grooming table when the dogs are not using it! BTW guess which animal in the house is best behaved for nail trims? George...my cat! He is an angel for nail trims!!!


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## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

I’ve been trying to figure out where I’m even going to put this so you guys are making me feel better. Lol. And I was thinking of putting it in my office, but it’s downstairs in the basement (I’d be bathing on the main floor). And the lighting isn’t the most excellent (but light modifications are easy). But we have so much furniture in my house, I can’t think of anywhere else to put it . I can figure that out though


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