# Litter Box Restart



## equi11frnd (Dec 21, 2014)

I have tried to quickly review the different threads related to this topic-I read Tom's potty system. My past 30 years has mostly been house breaking dobermans. Our first Havanese 7 years ago was purchased in the summer and I treated her like a doberman-I crate trained her and kept her outside a lot. My new puppy was litter box trained. I started my usual method and it went well the first couple days. Now we have had 2 days of rain and cold. We have kept going out frequently but I have seen him start to look for a spot just a tad too late.. so a couple of accident on a rug that I have sprayed with natures miracle. I know he was looking for a litter box.
So now I am now reinstating the litter box which I have never used. I hope I can get him back using it again pretty easily with the tractor supply pellets he had in his litter box too. I can't place it where he did have an accident in the middle of the living room. Where is the best location for a litter box? Generally he is doing so well going outside. Are there any hints on keeping the the outside part going as well or how to restart the litter box.Thanks


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I would set him up with an ex-pen, with his crate either attached or inside it, whichever works best for you. Then put the litter box in the ex-pen, closest to where you are likely to be. Then, when he wakes up from a nap and comes toward you, he will encounter the litter box and it will probably trigger his "I need to potty" response. Then you can praise, praise, PRAISE when he goes in the box.

When he is reliably using the litter box in the ex-pen, you can increase his area VERY SLOWLY. For instance, JUST the kitchen until he proves that he can get back to the box in that space, then slowly adding one room at a time. Do this over a course of MONTHS, not days. The whole idea is to instill good habits, so making sure you set him up for success is very important.

You don't need to worry about him learning to go outside, Given time, they ALL just start going outside on their own. Just be ready with praise and treats so they learn that outside is another "OK" place to go. 

In fact, for most dogs, if you want to continue with an indoor potty option, (we did, because we live where there is a lot of snow in the winter) you will find that, in time, you need to really work to keep them interested in the litter box. There are many people who, at this point, decide they will just have the dog go outside from then on. Many, if not most, of them later wish that they had maintained an indoor option too. Kodi MUCH prefers to go outside, but if we're in the middle of a blizzard, or a bad rain storm, I can tell him, "Use your box!" and he will sigh and go use the box.


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## equi11frnd (Dec 21, 2014)

Thank you this was very helpful. He was already very reliably using the litter box so when I got it set up he picked it right back up. Without your post, I was foolishly thinking he would possibly run from the living room back to the litter box. Now in actuality we only have control in half of the kitchen. We will slowly expand our territory. I am really pleased with this method. I feel so much better leaving him knowing that he is not locked in a crate uncomfortably trying to hold even for a few minutes. I can only see this as a positive option even later in life as you mentioned. I feel like an old dog that just learned a new trick.


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## equi11frnd (Dec 21, 2014)

*Litter Box*

I have moved the litter box into our family room when we are spending time in there and our pup is using it, then I take it back into the kitchen. Would there be a problem having one in each room? Also I am thinking that I want to continue the litter box option when as he gets older-plan to have just one later on for sure. The cat litter box does not seem as though it will be big enough for a grown dog. Is that what people are using for their adult litter box trained dogs?


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

No problem with more than one. If they know what they are for, location is not that important, as long as they don't have to solve a puzzle to find one.

Purina used to makes ones just like these, and a larger size with taller sides. For a number of years after Purina stopped selling them, I had to make some. We're glad these are back on the market. Do a Google search for this brand. They come in a variety of colors now.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/171471566767?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


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## equi11frnd (Dec 21, 2014)

*Perfect*

Thank you for your reply. That looks perfect-mine has higher sides so that he won't fit as he gets bigger. They have some that are disposable types at tractor supply but I much prefer the ones in the link that you sent. I also love your puppy video! Oh my goodness, what lovely effervescent dogs! I now am going to be shopping for some of the things I saw in your yard too


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Even the adults will use that size box. Only the boys that lift their leg need the large size, with the higher sides.


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## StarrLhasa (Jun 6, 2010)

I just purchased a Puppy Go Here litter pan from Petco online for $19.68, and it's free shipping Friday. Dog and Cat litter does not qualify for free shipping, but I will buy it from Amazon (using my Amazon Smiles account which supports Havanese Rescue), and it has free Amazon Prime shipping.

Thanks for the update. We have a new foster puppy in the house, and we might as well train him to a litter pan now.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

We use Equine Pine pellets, intended for horse stalls, from Tractor Supply, for the dogs.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tom King said:


> Even the adults will use that size box. Only the boys that lift their leg need the large size, with the higher sides.


Or if you have a larger Hav. Kodi was missing his litter box when he pooped for a while, just as he reached adulthood. I watched him and saw that when he did his "potty dance" circle (which, at least for him seems to be a necessary precursor to getting down to business) he couldn't stay in the box AND make his circle. So if he got himself all sorted out on the out-of-the-box part of the circle&#8230; he missed.

We switched to the larger Rascal Dog, which is about the biggest litter box I know of, and the problem stopped immediately. He can make his full circle without getting out of the box.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

StarrLhasa said:


> I just purchased a Puppy Go Here litter pan from Petco online for $19.68, and it's free shipping Friday. Dog and Cat litter does not qualify for free shipping, but I will buy it from Amazon (using my Amazon Smiles account which supports Havanese Rescue), and it has free Amazon Prime shipping.
> 
> Thanks for the update. We have a new foster puppy in the house, and we might as well train him to a litter pan now.


Cat litter isn't good for dogs. Specially made dog litter isn't great either. It is SO absorbent that you can't tell when they've gone. SO there can be a strong build-up of ammonia, right at dog-nose level, that YOU might not smell, but may turn your dog off from using the box.

We used the Purina dog litter ONCE and went right back to wood pellets. I can tell immediate if he has used the box and clean it up, keeping both of us happier.


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## mleduc (Nov 6, 2014)

krandall said:


> I would set him up with an ex-pen, with his crate either attached or inside it, whichever works best for you. Then put the litter box in the ex-pen, closest to where you are likely to be. Then, when he wakes up from a nap and comes toward you, he will encounter the litter box and it will probably trigger his "I need to potty" response. Then you can praise, praise, PRAISE when he goes in the box.
> 
> When he is reliably using the litter box in the ex-pen, you can increase his area VERY SLOWLY. For instance, JUST the kitchen until he proves that he can get back to the box in that space, then slowly adding one room at a time. Do this over a course of MONTHS, not days. The whole idea is to instill good habits, so making sure you set him up for success is very important.
> 
> ...


Karen, Love this post. Not hijacking, but a similar questions regarding training/little box.

I am also in MA; and with a new puppy who's about 7 months old. He wasn't very interested in potty training outside, due to the colder fall weather and his smaller size (he's a lighter boned Hav)

I'm all for shoveling out an area for him to work on/train on next winter, but right now there's no way I he would be even remotely interested in going outside to do his business.

Any tips for starting this training in the spring?

He's crate trained, and mostly piddle pad trained (mostly, if it's a little wet from a previous pee, right in the middle he may not want to use it) His crate is in the kitchen with a small ex-pen area around it to include his crate/food/water. The piddle pad it just outside of it.

When you talk about litter boxes are you referencing a piddle pad, or an actual kitty litter box?

We can't stand having to use nature's miracle multiple times a day!!!

Thanks for the potty tips!


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## equi11frnd (Dec 21, 2014)

*litter boxes*

Nature's Miracle High-Sided Litter Box - this is what I got from amazon. My guy is just over 4 months old now and the multiple litter boxes made the difference in our success. I have 3, one in each room that he has access to. When he is out of his pen any room that doesn't have a litter box must be closed off. We use the wood pellets that Tom mentioned that are available from Tractor supply. We have had him unintentionally get into one of the rooms without them and he did have an accident on a bathroom mat, so limiting the space and expanding it carefully as Karen mentioned is critical. Other than that no need for Natures Miracle I am not going to open any additional rooms till our boy gets much older. With the snow and bad weather use of the litter box has been a blessing. Good luck!


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## equi11frnd (Dec 21, 2014)

*After thought*

I think if you put a used pee pad under the compressed wood in the bottom of the litter box that would possible leave enough scent to get him start using the box. My puppy would have never used a pee pad because he would have torn it up playing with it. I think the scent in the box is the key.There are probably other people here who know more about how to help him to transition from the pad to the box.


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## Zoe093014 (Jan 27, 2015)

I would love to train to a litter box but I had a small one and she just started to eat the dog litter pellets so I discontinued. The problem is she is used to having the run of the house when someone is home. Can I get back to an ex pen? She has a small room with her puppy pads but she only uses it when she feels like it. I've been using the Nature's Miracle on the misses.
Is it too late for me for a litter box or should I just wait until we can go for more consistent at least now, driveway walks?


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

I would be careful about giving a puppy that is not housetrained the run of the house, even when you are home. Unless you can have eyes on him every second you are just setting yourself up for accidents. I would try to confine to a tiled area or at least the room you are in. In the beginning Molly only got freedom right after she had just peed or pooped and even then it was supervised. Otherwise she was in her crate or expen. The more accidents they have in the house the more they think that IS their potty area.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mleduc said:


> Karen, Love this post. Not hijacking, but a similar questions regarding training/little box.
> 
> I am also in MA; and with a new puppy who's about 7 months old. He wasn't very interested in potty training outside, due to the colder fall weather and his smaller size (he's a lighter boned Hav)
> 
> ...


Kitty litter boxes are too small for even a small HAvanese&#8230; they need room to circle while doing their "potty dance". The litter boxes we use are Rascal Dog. and we use wood pellets meant for horse bedding "Equine Pine" for the litter.

I DON'T know if it's possible to train a 7 month old to use a litter box, though. Most dogs I know who use litter boxes start at the breeder's with it. The Rascal Dog does come with an "attractant", though, which is supposed to make them want to pee there. Getting them to poop there is probably a bigger hurdle.

Why do you have his pee pad outside his ex-pen? I would think you'd want him to learn to use it independently.

I'm also not sure what you mean about tips for starting training in the spring. What do you want to start training in the spring? Sorry if I'm being dense!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Zoe093014 said:


> I would love to train to a litter box but I had a small one and she just started to eat the dog litter pellets so I discontinued. The problem is she is used to having the run of the house when someone is home. Can I get back to an ex pen? She has a small room with her puppy pads but she only uses it when she feels like it. I've been using the Nature's Miracle on the misses.
> Is it too late for me for a litter box or should I just wait until we can go for more consistent at least now, driveway walks?


I would never EVER give an un-potty trained dog the run of the house. Every single time you let her have a mistake ANYWHERE, you will have to have MANY MULTIPLE times of her going in the proper place to make up for all the bad habits that are building up. Potty training is all about developing good habits. That means managing the situation so that they can't make mistakes. Not that they NEVER will, because most puppies do every now and then, but that's our fault for not watching them closely enough or managing their environment well enough.

As far as eating pellets is concerned, The Rascal Dog comes with a grate that you can use to cover the pellets so the dog can't get at them.


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## mleduc (Nov 6, 2014)

krandall said:


> Kitty litter boxes are too small for even a small HAvanese&#8230; they need room to circle while doing their "potty dance". The litter boxes we use are Rascal Dog. and we use wood pellets meant for horse bedding "Equine Pine" for the litter.


I hear you there, I do see him circle. Hm. So I guess a little box won't work for him.



> I DON'T know if it's possible to train a 7 month old to use a litter box, though. Most dogs I know who use litter boxes start at the breeder's with it. The Rascal Dog does come with an "attractant", though, which is supposed to make them want to pee there. Getting them to poop there is probably a bigger hurdle.
> 
> Why do you have his pee pad outside his ex-pen? I would think you'd want him to learn to use it independently.


We don't have the Ex-pen covering an overly large area.
He totally has down using his Piddle pad - if there is only a small previous pee / no pee on it. It's only when there is some pee on it where he might not use it; and goes to another pad - like the kitchen standing mat.



> I'm also not sure what you mean about tips for starting training in the spring. What do you want to start training in the spring? Sorry if I'm being dense!


No no it's all good Karen  We do want him to primarily go outside - but with the very cold temps, and tons of snow it's been impossible to start the training. Back in the fall I would bring him outside after being crated and wait for him to pee/poop before allowing him to run around the house. As it got colder and colder, he would go outside with me and look at me like, are you crazy? Or different smells/scents would completely distract him from doing his business.

I would then bring him back inside to his crate, and try again in 20 minutes. After about an hour and a half finally give up. Only then to find a poop somewhere in the kitchen.

So I would say that he's piddle pad trained, as long as there is a 100% fresh piddle pad there (he will even try to poop on it)
The probability of him using his piddle pad decreases based on how much pee is already in it.

I want to re-train this behavior such that he will bark/ring a bell/look out a sliding door to go out.

I hope this helps more. Also I can start a new thread, but I thought this was very much on top of the initial poster.

Thanks all!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mleduc said:


> No no it's all good Karen  We do want him to primarily go outside - but with the very cold temps, and tons of snow it's been impossible to start the training. Back in the fall I would bring him outside after being crated and wait for him to pee/poop before allowing him to run around the house. As it got colder and colder, he would go outside with me and look at me like, are you crazy? Or different smells/scents would completely distract him from doing his business.


Almost ALL dogs learn to go outside with very little encouragement in good weather. But you may go through a period of confusion and him wanting to use his indoor potty at the start of the bad weather again next year.



mleduc said:


> I would then bring him back inside to his crate, and try again in 20 minutes. After about an hour and a half finally give up. Only then to find a poop somewhere in the kitchen.


There's the problem. When you give up, and they aren't supervised EYES ON every SECOND, that is exactly when they will have an accident. He's also not getting the message, "You ONLY get freedom AFTER you've pottied".



mleduc said:


> So I would say that he's piddle pad trained, as long as there is a 100% fresh piddle pad there (he will even try to poop on it)
> The probability of him using his piddle pad decreases based on how much pee is already in it.


That's actually a GOOD thing. He's fastidious. And using a litter box won't change that&#8230; Kodi expects his litter box to be cleaned before he uses it again. 



mleduc said:


> I want to re-train this behavior such that he will bark/ring a bell/look out a sliding door to go out.


The problem is that the habit of only going where they are supposed to has to be TOTALLY ingrained before you can expect them to tell you that they need to go. Kodi stopped having "accidents" quite early, because he was confined to areas where I knew he knew the rules, he had access to his litter box at all times, and I knew approximately when he would need to poop, so I took him out at those times (He has never liked using the litter box to poop except as a LAST resort) But I kind of felt like I was trained. The good thing, however, was that we didn't have to worry about "surprises" in the house.

We tried bells and he refused to touch them. He's a SMART dog. Look at all the titles he has. But he had a real aversion to the bells, even after we tried to positively reinforce them for MONTHS. I finally took them down because all they were doing was scratching up the woodwork. Then, one day, sometime AFTER his second birthday, I heard him barking. I went to see what was going on, and he was barking at the door!!! Wonder of wonders! Of course we went right out, he pottied, and we had a HUGE party!!! From that day on, some "switch" in his brain flipped and he "got it". form that day on, he has been completely consistent and reliable about asking to go out.

Now, if the weather is too nasty, or if the snow hasn't been dug out enough for him to go out, I have to TELL him, "Go use your box!" He'll huff and puff around for a while, but eventually he caves and uses the box. If there is previous pee in it, however, that hasn't been cleaned up, he'll just continue to wander around complaining until someone "fixes" the problem. And I'm fine with that. I don't know why a cat or dog should have to use a dirty toilet anymore than I want to use an unflushed human toilet!

So I guess I think that at this point, you are still a long way from expecting him to be able to "tell" you when he needs to go out. There ARE a few dogs who get the bell thing VERY early, but they are few and far between. By far, the majority need to learn appropriate potty habits FIRST, THEN learn to signal you, whether it is using a bell or barking at the door.

I actually prefer barking at the door because it is so portable. It works in any building, without having to remember to bring a set of bells along. Kodi even will go to the door of our training center that leads out to the outdoor exercise areas and ask to go out there if he needs to potty. I never taught him that, he just does it.


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