# Our story.



## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

*My Lilly was purchased by my dad from a local breeder who had purchased a mom and her puppies from a Penn. breeder ( I figure it is a puppy mill). The Penn breeders name is John Esh and I haven't been able to find out anything about him other than the name of his 'farm' which is "Twin Maple" . Dad was told she was a Bichon Frise and her papers which are not AKC but ACA (I know is not reputable but he didn't) say she is a Bichon Frise BUT when you look and her and I have had 2 or 3 groomers and a AKC trainer tell me this also that she isn't a Frise but a Havanese. I went to the AKC standard for the Havinese and she measures right on the money. Her front legs are slightly shorter than the back her hair is only slightly wavy she has the springy walk and great temperament. I know that I can had a limited registration thru AKC but I am not ready to have her spayed she is 8 mths old now, just had her first heat in July and her adult coat is coming in. She was recently shaved because I couldn't get her matts out and the Petsmart groomer didn't want to fool with it. Soo we are waiting until she is pretty again to take more pictures.

Instead of soaped pictures since her hair is soo short could I just take pictures with her dry?

WOW I am long winded tonight sorry.*


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

wait I am confused what do you need the photos for? Or are you just wanting breeders to look at them?

Amanda


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

To help in identifying her breed and health.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Okay,
I know around here in Ohio with the Amish, designer breeds are popular. I know 2 people that have Havanese/Bichon mix. I don't know enough about Bichons to tell the difference though.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Here is a photo of one of the hav/bichon crosses that I know

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/879651546/


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

The bichons coat is curly like a poodle. How does the coat of the dog in the picture compare to the coat of your Havanese? It doesn't look to different from Lilly's.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Here is a photo of my Dora with the hav/bichon cross right next to her. 
http://flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/879651634/


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

Looks like the Havies hair is straighter. I can't wait to find out what breed Lilly is. Thanks for your help.


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## radar_jones (May 6, 2007)

Sounds like you might have a Havanese on your hands. I would get some advice on the characterisitcs such as the measurements and the temperament. Pictures would be preferable that way you can really get some great advice from others on this Forum who would give the best advice on whether or not you have what you think you have. I would say based on what you have mentioned that you have a Havanese.

Derek


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

I am not sure what you are wanting? Since this is a puppy, it might still be too early to know if her front will be straight.  Are you considering breeding a puppy that came from a puppy mill?


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

No I am not going to breed her. I do not know for sure she came from a mill I am wanting to find out if the Twin Maple farm in Penn is one. Any suggestions on how to find out this info?


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

At 8mths would she have the shape she will have as an adult? At this age wouldn't it be obvious if her front legs aren't straight?


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Lilly's mom said:


> At 8mths would she have the shape she will have as an adult? At this age wouldn't it be obvious if her front legs aren't straight?


At 8 months you have a pretty good idea what she'll look like as an adult. She basically has some more coat to grow and filling in to do. Yes, it would be obvious if her legs were straight at this age HOWEVER we just found out a couple of months ago from Dr. Murphy that bowed legs can result from environmental issues so she may injure a leg and have it go bowed at some point it seems.


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

Any suggestions on how to research the reliability of the Twin Maple farm in PA. ?


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## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

I am from PA (Philadelphia area) and I can tell you that Lancaster County is notorious for Puppy Mills. There was actually a huge bust about a year ago where hundreds of dogs were taken from one breeder (including many Havanese). It is horrible the conditions that the dogs there are kept in. I did a search online and found that John Esh is the father of Daniel Esh who had a large puppy mill and has been under investigation for years. Clearview Kennels is another one of their facilities. Here is a link information. They have been under investigation since the 1990's. I will warn you, the information in these links is sad.

http://www.lcanimal.org/cmpgn/esh_update.htm


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Karen, I read all the crap on that link. How do they allow this guy to stay in business?


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## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

I know, it is so heartbreaking. When you drive into Lancaster County, they have billboards and signs about trying to stop the Puppymills. I don't know what can be done to stop it except for educating people about them. Here is a link to the large bust last year. It was actually in Southern Chester County PA which is right on the border of Lancaster County.

http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/7227/PA/US/


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

This is just my thoughts---
Whether your dog is a havanese or whatever She should be spayed.She obviously wouldn't be health tested and her back ground is sketchy at best.Enjoy her--but break the cycle for her--so she gets a quality life.eace:


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Welcome to the forum, 

I am not sure what breed your puppy is, but she is a cutie. I agree with Julie though, you should have her spayed. Why have her go through all the heat cycles when she is not going to be show and bred.


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## radar_jones (May 6, 2007)

Your Little Girl is Very Sweet. I agree with what everyone suggests which is to ensure that Lily gets a good life free from any problems or complications in the future. There is really no point to endure the problems that accompany a Female Hav in Heat if you are not going to Breed or Show her. Best of Luck.

Derek


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Welcome to the forum Lilly's mom. Your puppy is very cute and it sounds as though she exhibits many Hav traits. Does she shred toilet paper! That's a dead giveaway.... I have one Hav with straighter, silkier hair and one with more wavy hair. With her current puppy cut (bad) Sedona is mistaken for a Bichon often. Perhaps you could visit a dog show in your area and have some Hav breeders take a look at Lilly (after they are finished showing of course) and give you their opinions.

Susan


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

Thanks for the welcome I am so glad I found you. :wave: 

Yes I will have Lilly spayed very sonn.
Should I wait until after obedience classes are over?

Thank you Brady's mom for the info on the Esh's. They should have been put in jail.  I hate puppy mills. My dad didn't do his homework but we love Lilly anyway. 

YES Lilly loves shred toilet paper, newspapers, pizza boxs, milk jugs, plastic cups anything she can get her paws on.
Looks like I might have me a Havi YEA!!:bounce:


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

Lilly and her pizza box. Please excuse the mess in my room. Rough week.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

How funny, did she chew her way into that box??


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

Laurief said:


> How funny, did she chew her way into that box??


*Most definitely!!* eace:


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

She must have some Hav in her - if not all!! She is a beauty!


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## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

What a pretty girl. I am glad that she got a good home no matter where she came from!


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Welcome Lily's mom! 

It sounds like your girl might at least have some Havanese in her, if not all of her. We'd love to see more pics! 

Unfortunately, if the person who your dad bought her from, bought the mom and pups, it's almost definitely from a puppy mill. Even worse, by buying the mom and pups - though this person essentially saved them - they also made it possible for the mill to make more money and keep at their 'business' of killing moms through over-breeding and no health care.

Karen, I read some of that stuff you sent links to. It makes me so angry!!!

*"February 7, 2002: 486 dogs

Esh was warned of having the same alleged violations on his last two inspections and was 
"given the opportunity to correct these violations or face legal action." *

Why on earth is it allowed for any kennel to have SO many dogs?! Good Lord, it isn't possible to give so many of them the quality care they need and deserve. And after two inspections, he is "given the opportunity" ???!! Sheesh. Gimme a break! Why does he NEED ANOTHER chance to make more dogs miserable? Do they really think he'll clean up his act after all those inspections? GRRRRRRRR!! :brick:

Let me at 'em!!!


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## radar_jones (May 6, 2007)

Hi Lily. Well it looks like she's a surefire Hav if she likes to get into cardboard. Radar just loves TP as well. His thing is where he likes to grab it from the Roll and then just Run right from the bathroom to the kitchen. It's a 15 foot Run for him. I'm sorry that you had to get your have this way from an irreputable source but at least now you can liberate her.

Derek


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I didn't read this entire thread, but think I got the jist of it. The puppymills are a huge problem here in Pa. Last year, I went out twice just to get a closer look. We snuck back into the "Keep out" area. It was so sad, crates piled on top of each other. The dogs had no shelter from the rain, cold, sun, heat etc. Each crate contained several dogs. Yes, they were havanese. It was so heartbreaking. Scarey part was, this puppymiller sold his dogs through a broker who has a website. These breeders are licensed by the AKC!!! Hmmmmmm...... 

I also went out with Last Chance for Animals and picketed down town Lancaster. Don't know if our voices were heard, but the state is in the process of stricter breeding laws right now. Hopefully, this will stop puppymillers!

There was also a question about straight legs. Straight legs are a great thing, but that does not gaurantee a healthy dog. Good luck with Lilly


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## Sissygirl (Aug 8, 2007)

lfung5 said:


> I didn't read this entire thread, but think I got the jist of it. The puppymills are a huge problem here in Pa. Last year, I went out twice just to get a closer look. We snuck back into the "Keep out" area. It was so sad, crates piled on top of each other. The dogs had no shelter from the rain, cold, sun, heat etc. Each crate contained several dogs. Yes, they were havanese. It was so heartbreaking. Scarey part was, this puppymiller sold his dogs through a broker who has a website. These breeders are licensed by the AKC!!! Hmmmmmm......
> 
> I also went out with Last Chance for Animals and picketed down town Lancaster. Don't know if our voices were heard, but the state is in the process of stricter breeding laws right now. Hopefully, this will stop puppymillers!


Good for you! (picketing) I can't stand the thoughts of little havanese puppies with no shelter from the elements and all caged up.... I hope some stricter breeding laws come soon.

Marie


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I know. The havanese are bred for companionship and thrive on being with people. I can't imagine how lonely they must feel.


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## brandy (Jun 12, 2007)

I'm not exactally sure how you could go about stopping them but I know AKC is suppose to visit kennels owning a certain number of dogs or more. I would definetely contact AKC and to stress your concern you can have some others sign the document as well backing your statements. Power in numbers. Then maybe they will go out and take a look. Also notifying your humanie society. I dont know the law in your state but I'm sure they at least are required to provide adequete shelter from the elements and cleand living conditions. Anything, any pressure at all on them, make it more of a hassle for them then a profit. And remember the squeeky wheel gets the oil. All puppies and kittens were banned from being able to be sold in pet stores,malls etc. in my county many years ago. A big named pet store was somehow able to aquire rights to begin doing it again and was quickly shunned by the public and local news papers. Employees quit, people stopped shopping the stores etc. They were buying puppies from puppy millers back east and flying here to sell for thousands of dollars each. Of course they all ended up sick and all the vets knew that the sick dog coming in was probably from them.  Greedy, sick people!


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

The problem is, AKC does visit these places. Remember the AKC gets money for every pup registered with them. If anyone wants a taste of reality, get the HBO DVD "Dealing Dogs". It was a 17 yr inverstigation done by Last Chance for animals. The kennel was finally busted, it took 17 yrs and a guy going in undercover wearing a camera for 6 months to bust this guy. Worst case in history. It's not a puppymill, but just as big a problem. This kennel was inspected throughout the years. It is horrifying, if you can take it.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Your Lilly looks like a poodle mix to me......maybe it's the very short haircut,but we had a toy poodle growing up that had the same type muzzle and bigger eyes set closer together.My guess would be a no.Many different breeds will eat a pizza box,when it has gooey cheese on it!Given her size etc.I would guess she is a malti-poo.

:laugh:I had to laugh---if chewing paper and toilet paper determined a hav---then Quincy isn't one!And I have papers proving otherwise!:laugh:


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## Sissygirl (Aug 8, 2007)

lfung5 said:


> I didn't read this entire thread, but think I got the jist of it. The puppymills are a huge problem here in Pa. Last year, I went out twice just to get a closer look. We snuck back into the "Keep out" area. It was so sad, crates piled on top of each other. The dogs had no shelter from the rain, cold, sun, heat etc. Each crate contained several dogs. Yes, they were havanese. It was so heartbreaking. Scarey part was, this puppymiller sold his dogs through a broker who has a website. These breeders are licensed by the AKC!!! Hmmmmmm......
> 
> I also went out with Last Chance for Animals and picketed down town Lancaster. Don't know if our voices were heard, but the state is in the process of stricter breeding laws right now. Hopefully, this will stop puppymillers!
> 
> There was also a question about straight legs. Straight legs are a great thing, but that does not gaurantee a healthy dog. Good luck with Lilly


I saw this site and wondered if you had ever seen or heard of them

http://www.rescuedhavanese.org/
quote:
At the Havanese Angel League Organization for Rescue (HALO), we are dedicated to the survival and care of Havanese. These Havs come from puppy mill auctions and some owner surrenders . Our goal is to save one Havanese at a time and insure it has a safe and happy home.

We will endeavor to rescue any Havanese discovered in intolerable conditions. *We will closely monitor shelters, via the internet or word of mouth, dog auctions whether leading to placement in puppy mills or not*, and pet store sightings throughout the country for our mission is a National one.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I only know about Halo from seeing the rescues on petfinder. I am happy they are able to do what they do for the dogs.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Sissygirl said:


> I saw this site and wondered if you had ever seen or heard of them
> 
> http://www.rescuedhavanese.org/
> quote:
> ...


One of our forum members "Luvmyhavanese"-Shannon just adopted a pup from Halo.He sure is cute.I bet she could answer your questions for you.


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## LuvMyHavanese (Apr 13, 2007)

I got your pm Julie, thanks. 

I admire the people from Halo. They really are out for the best interests of the dogs. Thats where i just got Jax(my 3 month old) from. I will try & answer any questions you may have. You can PM me if you would like.


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