# How Much Did You Pay for your Hav?



## Luciledodd

I know that Havanese from reputable breeders cost around $1500. But for those of us that didn't know that when we got our baby, I was wondering what most paid. Rosie cost $750. I expected more but was told that since she was going to be to little to show, she was selling her as pet quality only. (probably not true). My husband thought that was a lot of money to pay for a dog and besides the protection dogs I have purchased, was the most I had ever paid for a dog. I see them advertized now for $300-$500 in the newspapers. Backyard breeders? Personally, I can't imagine that I would have got a better one than Rosie if I had paid $3000. So as the popularity of the breed increases, I wonder what the average pet owner is paying.

Got to go, Rosie and Josie Wales just knocked something off in the bathroom...


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## Gizmo'sMom

Well when I got Gizmo I got her at the pet store (I didn't know about puppy mills/BYB then until I went to Petco and Gizmo and I got a lot of bad looks/comments). I feel bad for having supported a possible Mill or BYB but I love Gizmo and she is pretty perfect. I paid $1,850 for her (which with that price and what they had said I thought I was doing the right thing). 



P.S. - I have been donating to some groups to help dogs to make up for the mistake so please no nasty posts


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## scottyce

The lowest Hav Ive ever seen was around 600 and the highest was close to 3 grand, I paid 650 for my dog (1/2 hav and 1/2 KCC).


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## Luciledodd

I'm back. Good thing I went to see. Josie knocked the sack of cat food off the counter and they were both going to dig in.

I agree about the nasty posts. I don't want any either.

I knew about puppy mills; so no excuse there. I just didn't have a clue what they cost. The breeder said that her mother was a show dog and she had picked Rosie for the show ring; but at four months and only 2.5 pounds, she didn't think that she would get to standard. (well she did in height and weight). Anyway now I figure that was just her sales pitch. I told husband that another one would cost around $2,000 and he didn't bat an eye. he is so in love with Rosie; but Josie Wales has put a stop from looking for another just yet.


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## waybrook

I paid $2000 for Panda. That's alot of money, but I have the confidence of her being well bred, temperment tested, health certified, etc. In the long run the $2k is a bargain if we don't experience any major genetic health issues....


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## clare

In England you pay between £800 and £1000 for a pup from a reputable breeder,but you can get them on the internet for as little as £100 pounds but they are scams and BYB or as we call them puppy farms,so I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole.Poor little pups it makes you want to buy them all up and give them a loving home!!


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## Tom King

Just inserting this as an example. Our pets are $2,000. We have about 3 litters a year. We never have paid a professional handler or specialed a dog. We do all the health testing you have ever heard of and others that most have never heard of. Our pups are potty trained, socialized, and we spare no effort to provide the best possible.

Last year was the first year we showed a profit. Our Schedule C (IRS form for businesses)showed a profit of $458.00. I didn't claim any depreciation on the addition to the house for the dog complex. I just thought we needed to "show" a profit with all the proposed legislation-that we are mostly in favor of-and show that we are "professional" breeders.

We don't even try to compete with puppy sales on price and volume.

How much less would anyone have us do so we could sell puppies for less money?


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## Rita Nelson

We got Tucker from a breeder and he was free. 5 weeks earlier we had picked up our first little Hav (Scooter). We had been waiting months for a puppy. We had him 3 weeks before a tragic accident took his life. When I called June and told her what happened she said when DH and I were ready for another little one she would GIVE us a pup. Scooter was $2,000 so June was out $2,000 when she gave us Tucker. I can't begin to tell you how grateful we are to her for her generosity.


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## clare

Rita Nelson said:


> We got Tucker from a breeder and he was free. 5 weeks earlier we had picked up our first little Hav (Scooter). We had been waiting months for a puppy. We had him 3 weeks before a tragic accident took his life. When I called June and told her what happened she said when DH and I were ready for another little one she would GIVE us a pup. Scooter was $2,000 so June was out $2,000 when she gave us Tucker. I can't begin to tell you how grateful we are to her for her generosity.


Wow that's amazing!!


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## Janizona

Tom King said:


> Just inserting this as an example. Our pets are $2,000. We have about 3 litters a year. We never have paid a professional handler or specialed a dog. We do all the health testing you have ever heard of and others that most have never heard of. Our pups are potty trained, socialized, and we spare no effort to provide the best possible.
> 
> Last year was the first year we showed a profit. Our Schedule C (IRS form for businesses)showed a profit of $458.00. I didn't claim any depreciation on the addition to the house for the dog complex. I just thought we needed to "show" a profit with all the proposed legislation-that we are mostly in favor of-and show that we are "professional" breeders.
> 
> We don't even try to compete with puppy sales on price and volume.
> 
> How much less would anyone have us do so we could sell puppies for less money?


I am with Tom, amazing as everyone might find this - we do not make money. I don't get paid a wage for all the time I spend with the babies and I do not work outside of the home. The health testing, the showing (I do use a handler and spend thousands to finish a dog) and all the other expenses of having dogs puts a big dent in the bank account. I do not own a stud dog so I have to travel to the male with my bitch which generally means an overpriced last minute airline ticket. I am currently getting bids to concrete the 18' x 46' puppy yard (it will be covered with $1500 artificial turf) and its going to run me about $4000 just for concrete! This area is enclosed and under roof so there needs to be a way to clean it out.

I've been selling my pups over the last 11 years at what I feel is a reasonable price of $1700. Pet or show - they are all worth the same......priceless!


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## Judy -- Toby & Jaime's mo

Fifteen years ago we paid $500 for our frst Hav and then 10 years ago we paid $1,000 for our second Hav -- therefore, I would expect a well bred Hav to be about $2,000 now -- which they are. I know there are lots of cheap Havs out there where people just want your $$ and do not care about the dog. Our puppy mill rescue HAV was of course very reasonably priced (but definately NOT the reason we got her) -- I really love her and I knew she was going to be a lot of work to rehabilitate and she was and will always likely have a few quirks (but that is okay). One should expect to pay a lot more for a well bred, socialized, potty training started puppy. I have seen some puppies that seem to be bred by responsible breeders for less money, but it seems they have more dogs and I really question how they would have time to do everything that needs to be done for their future development.

Judy
Mom to Jaime and Dori


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## Leslie

We paid the breeder $1200 for Shadow. Then, before she was a year old, paid the vet $7000 when she became ill and eventually died due to a [probable] combination of pancreatitis/congenital liver issue. Although the breeder did reimburse 100% of the initial cost, she could never reimburse us for the pain and heartache we suffered. We took her at her word that both parents were fully health-tested. My 20/20 hindsight tells me she probably lied...

With that experience to go on, we were determined the next pup we got would come from fully health-tested parents whose results were posted on OFA Tori fit that bill and her breeder, knowing the financial "hit" we had taken with Shadow's vet bills, allowed us to make payments w/no interest in the amount of $2000 over the course of 6 mos.

Tori will be 3 yrs. old next week and is one happy healthy little girl!


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## Janizona

Judy -- Toby & Jaime's mo said:


> Fifteen years ago we paid $500 for our frst Hav and then 10 years ago we paid $1,000 for our second Hav -- therefore, I would expect a well bred Hav to be about $2,000 now -- which they are. I know there are lots of cheap Havs out there where people just want your $$ and do not care about the dog. Our puppy mill rescue HAV was of course very reasonably priced (but definately NOT the reason we got her) -- I really love her and I knew she was going to be a lot of work to rehabilitate and she was and will always likely have a few quirks (but that is okay). One should expect to pay a lot more for a well bred, socialized, potty training started puppy. I have seen some puppies that seem to be bred by responsible breeders for less money, but it seems they have more dogs and I really question how they would have time to do everything that needs to be done for their future development.
> 
> Judy
> Mom to Jaime and Dori


That is funny! in 1994 I paid $600 for my first pet Havanese, a year later I paid $800 for my first show girl and its been a ride ever since.


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## Janizona

Leslie said:


> We paid the breeder $1200 for Shadow. Then, before she was a year old, paid the vet $7000 when she became ill and eventually died due to a [probable] combination of pancreatitis/congenital liver issue. Although the breeder did reimburse 100% of the initial cost, she could never reimburse us for the pain and heartache we suffered. We took her at her word that both parents were fully health-tested. My 20/20 hindsight tells me she probably lied...
> 
> With that experience to go on, we were determined the next pup we got would come from fully health-tested parents whose results were posted on OFA Tori fit that bill and her breeder, knowing the financial "hit" we had taken with Shadow's vet bills, allowed us to make payments w/no interest in the amount of $2000 over the course of 6 mos.
> 
> Tori will be 3 yrs. old next week and is one happy healthy little girl!


I am so sorry for what you went thru with Shadow and congrats on a healthy Tori!


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## Leslie

:hug: Janet :hug:


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## leena365

I paid 1200 each for mine as I was only purchasing them as a pet. We could not be happier with them.


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## luv3havs

We paid $1200 for Chico and $1500 for Cali. Both are healthy and have good termperaments. 

Our very special, wonderful, Finnegan came from HRI and we made a donation for him. Best money we have ever spent! He came housebroken, crate and leash trained, loved by his fosters, and ready to fit right into our family.

If I had known about HRI earlier, I would have gone that route before. but of course then we wouldn't have Chico and Cali!


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## whimsy

I paid $1,800 for Whimsy from a breeder in May.


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## irnfit

Kodi was $1800 and Shelby was $1200 (plus an extra $100 for the "breeder" to meet us 1/2 way). They are worth every penny.


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## pacehavi

Both of mine were $2000 from two separate reputable breeders associated with HCA. I wouldn't trade these two in for anything and they are perfect for our household, but...for the money I now know there are better breeders (such as the ones that frequent this board!) I knew not to buy from a pet store, puppy mill, or back yard breeder but I found it very very difficult to discern great reputable breeders from good and okay reputable breeders (or even disreputable reputable breeders!).


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## Beamer

My Beamer was $1500 from Ashstone Havanese. Best $1500 i have ever spent!

Rysn


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## clare

Isn't it great that no matter the price of our babies everyone is totally in love with their own Happy Havs!and wouldn't change them for the world!!


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## ama0722

I think the other thing that is important to consider and remember is what we get or should get for that amount of money-afterall it is a lot of money even if breeders aren't making money off the puppies. There are plenty of pure bred dogs that cost less and some of them do just as much health testing too. But we should get health testing, an amazing breeder who truly considers the two dogs they are breeding-structure, temperament, full health testing, to better the breed etc, great socialization and a head start for our puppy. I honestly feel if you are paying over a few hundred dollars and not getting those things-you are getting ripped off as rescue at least does those!

I have 2 havanese and the first I saved a thousand dollars and I will tell you I have spent a lot more than that. Dora wasn't socialized as to what I deemed fit for dogs in my household and thank goodness health wise she has been great. In my house she is absolutely perfect (in fact better behaved than the other one!) But then outside the house, she is a different story. To this day she is still people shy, it takes her awhile to warm up to a totally new situation, therapy dog overwhelms her, etc. We went through tons of training classes, tons of my time spent just taking her out and about, and to this day, I work on making Dora feel secure when we are out and about. If I could have paid that extra thousand upfront and gotten the same temperment as Dasher, I would have saved a lot of money and time and would do it in a heartbeat


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## iluvhavs

I paid $2000 for Rico, from a reputable local breeder. He was well socialized, both parents health tested, etc. He's a great boy, but has had eye problems from the time he was 2 years old. So even with the $2000 invested, I still spend about $1000 a year in doctor visits and medications. Wouldn't trade him for the world though.

Now Lucy, cost me $1000 (plus the $250 plane ticket), from a reputable breeder across the country, and even though she probably was not taught a thing before she got to us, she is perfect! She is only 2 now, so who knows what can happen.

I had a conversation about the cost of dogs and health problems with Rico's opthamologist. He bought a Golden Retriever he was going to show and breed, for $2500. Both parents were champions and healthy. The dog developed hip/joint problems when he was only 1. In fact a friend of his, who is a surgeon, told him one of the worst cases he'd ever seen. Lots of vet bills and he was never able to breed or show the dog. So no matter what you pay for a dog.........


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## Gizmo'sMom

I've actually been really surprised about my little Gizmo. Once I started looking things up I realized that I went against what most people say you should do when choosing a puppy from anywhere but she has been great. (Not meaning that you should never listen to the tips, just saying I was lucky  )

I saw three havanese puppies the day I chose her and she was the one that was scared and off to the side while the other two were running and playing around me. I chose her for a few reasons but mainly because they other two looked okay there and I just wanted to take her home since she looked scared. 

Since day one at home she loves new people especially once I greet them, and she can't wait to be petted by them when they come over. Her first little adventure out was to a new place that had about 15 people that were all playing with her and she kept going from person to person to lick them all. It was so cute. I am really lucky to have found her.


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## Luciledodd

WOW I sure got a bargain with Rosie. Maybe it was just luck but she was well socialized. Has no issues--except the outside potty thing. She truelly is the Happy Little Dog that I wanted. I really don't think that her breeder was a puppy mill--just a backyard breeder. She sold her to me without breeding previleges (which I had no intention of doing). We did have the thing with the mange spot and kennel cough (which she got at the vets). Rosie is not scared of anybody or anything, mischevious, loving has no seperation anxiety. It remains to be seen if she will be long-lived. I didn't know anything about the breed when I got her Just what AKC said. I didn't know that she would have an undercoat, would blow that undercoat, Some of you say that it can happen several times. I did see about the cataracts, but the siste said that was usually an issue of old age and did not concern me. I wanted a breed that was totally different from the schnauzers that I had had for twenty something years and boy did I get that.

My first schnauzer came from a pet store and lived a long life with no health issues. The second one came from a backyard breeder and only made it to 6 years. She was never the dog that the pet store one was. I bought three protection dogs for several thousand dollars each--only the first one that lived to a ripe old age was a keeper. The other two were given back to the breeder for temperment issues. Now I have a double-barreled shotgun for protection--probably more effective and a whole lot cheaper. (Sorry I have a hard time being serious.)

As an owner of a business, I know how expensive it is and how hard it is to make a profit. I have no problem with the price of the dogs and if I decide to get another will buy from a reputable breeder and pay whatever. But the fact remains that there are probably more Havanese being sold now for a very low price and they will soon be as common as the shih tzu or yorkie that everyone has and throws away or pens up outside as the little shih tzu is across the road from me. I really hate to see the Havanese featured in books or movies because the public becomes enamored with any new breed and then the shelters fill up with that breed. Think about the dalmations after that movie. And right now there is a havanese in the shih tzu rescue in Memphis who was surrendered because the owners couldn't maintain her. Again I am blessed.

Again I feel extremely lucky to have Rosie


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## marjrc

I paid $1500 for Ricky and it took a family meeting to make sure everyone was on board with that. I was in LOVE with the Havanese and had to have one. Ricky's dam and sire are health tested and from reputable Canadian breeders. 

We got Sammy via friends in Ontario, but he was born at a Hungarian breeder's. His owners here (that also bought a female puppy from Sammy's breeder and had them shipped) were starting to show and breed and Sammy didn't grow to fit the standard so they needed to find him another home, though making sure it was the right home, so no rush. I found out about him and they sold him to us for the price they paid as well as the cost of his neutering which they did before we picked him up at 8 months... about half what it cost for Ricky. I'm not sure if most Hungarian Hav breeders are charging that for their puppies, or if it was just this one.


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## mckennasedona

We paid $1400 (six years ago) and $1600 (5 years ago). Best money we EVER spent but six years ago we wondered just what in the world we were doing. All of our previous dogs had been mutts and shelter dogs and we never paid over $35 for any of them. Our girls are healthy, happy, well socialized, and they were 90% potty trained when they came home. The best part, after the wonderful pets we got, is that we made friends with some wonderful people who are ALWAYS there if we have questions or concerns, even when the questions and concerns are about our Sheltie and not our Havanese.


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## Janizona

mckennasedona said:


> We paid $1400 (six years ago) and $1600 (5 years ago). Best money we EVER spent but six years ago we wondered just what in the world we were doing. All of our previous dogs had been mutts and shelter dogs and we never paid over $35 for any of them. Our girls are healthy, happy, well socialized, and they were 90% potty trained when they came home. The best part, after the wonderful pets we got, is that we made friends with some wonderful people who are ALWAYS there if we have questions or concerns, even when the questions and concerns are about our Sheltie and not our Havanese.


Isn't it amazing the friendships and bonds we have all made from the Havanese? My puppy owners are some of my best friends now and we have a bond that will never be broken, long past the lifespan of our pets. Then there are the friends I have made at dog shows, met at Nationals or met on the Forum. I love all of you!!!!:grouphug:


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## jacqui

I sell my puppies for $2000. Both parents have their CHIC and both the sire and dam are from champion bloodlines. That being said, I have to say it is the breeder, not the price, that is most important. I hope anyone thinking about getting any breed of dog--or any mix--does his homework, MEETS the breeder, CHECKS the references and the health testing on the OFA website.


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## Gizmo'sMom

Luciledodd said:


> I really hate to see the Havanese featured in books or movies because the public becomes enamored with any new breed and then the shelters fill up with that breed. Think about the dalmations after that movie. And right now there is a havanese in the shih tzu rescue in Memphis who was surrendered because the owners couldn't maintain her.


Yea I really wish people would think more about the work that goes into having a puppy/dog before just going out and getting one cause it's cute. Not that I was any kind of expert when I bought Giz, but I thought long and hard about how my life would change and the work involved before I got her. Loving every minute of it 

Still learning a lot of it, but the vet always says how happy and clean she looks so I guess I am doing something right


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## Lilly'sMom

Ok, I confess, I paid $450.00 for Lilly (and I have the nerve to complain because her hair isn't as nice as everyone else's), plus airfare (yes, I had her flown to me). I looked for local breeders with no luck. I found Lilly on puppyfind (don't yell at me!). I really thought that the more expensive pups were for show and breeding. I was impressed by the breeder's website and any contact I had with her. I wasn't actually planning to get a pup yet but I fell in love with Lilly's online pics and couldn't forget about her. My husband was the one who made the move to purchase Lilly after seeing how much I wanted her, even though I kept saying that we weren't ready to do this right now. I think we were dealing with a backyard breeder. There were a few signs that Lilly didnt' get the attention that a reputable breeder would have given, but I absolutely love her and wouldn't trade her for anything in the world. So far she hasn't had any health problems. The ad did say that she came from champion bloodlines but I don't think that's true and I'm not sure her papers are legit. It's funny, I was on my way to find the thread that talks about looking up bloodlines when I was sidetracked by this thread.


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## Gizmo'sMom

Has anyone else found that their Hav is more comfortable around big dogs then small. Gizmo seems to shy away from puppies/dogs her size, but after a while she gets comfortable, but big dogs she fine and will go up and play and try to jump on them. 

I found her breeder I believe online (as I said earlier she was a pet store puppy) and I think she was from a BYB not a mill. They apparently do several breeds of small dogs...maybe she was picked on by little dogs. Not sure :\


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## margaretandluigi

I paid $750 for Desilu, but he was "half price." (Actually one of his two co-breeders is a dear friend of mine and she gifted me her half of the purchase price. The rest of the puppies were sold for $1500.)


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## Luciledodd

Karen thanks for fessing up. You and I basically had the same experience. I was greiving for my little schnauzer and wanted another puppy immediately. Rosie's papers are legitimate; but I didn't send them in. Can't see the point on a spayed dog. The vet papers were with her and she had had a lot of testing and shots. I confess I looked at a 400 dog but liked Rosies' picture the best. You know the breeders don't usually advertize, so how is a novice to know about them?


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## Lilly'sMom

Lucile, we got our non-hav Hannah when I was greiving the loss of my mutt, Jazz. The funny thing is that we wanted a Great Pyrenees, went on puppyfind, and found Hannah. She didn't have papers though. She supposedly came from a farm where they used most of their dogs as working dogs. We liked that idea, didn't care about papers, and got Hannah. She is definitey not a purebred Great Pyernees but she has to be the most beautiful dog I've ever seen. I thought I was being smart when I got Lilly because she had papers. Talk about learning in baby steps!


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## Lilly'sMom

Out of curiosity, I was just looking at puppyfind. It is amazing how many Havanese puppies are available for well under $1000. The ads of the sellers look very legitimate, so you really can't blame people for not knowing better, especially those of us that grew up when dogs were just dogs. I don't know how people can be better educated on the matter.


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## Janizona

Here's a hint - I don't know of ANY reputable quality breeder that would place their pups on puppyfind! Ugh. Please don't go there......ask on the Forum for reference of breeders or go the the HCA website and see their breeder listings. If they don't have pups, just ask them for referrals.


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## herrick51

We paid $1500 for Brody from a breeder in Florida who worked with and got his dogs from Los Perritos - I knew nothing about the breed when we decided to get one, and we looked a several "backyard breeder" dogs - the more I researched, the more I became convinced that it was essential to pay the extra $ for verified health testing and good breeding lines. We are sooooo happy that we did - the best $1500 ever spent!


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## Havtahava

I have paid $1800, $1900, $2000 and $2500 for my Havanese.


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## davetgabby

Molly's worth a million. But only paid $1200 . Saved $998,800 What a deal.


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## Becky Chittenden

I paid $2000 for the first 3 and $2500 for Inky, the mother of the pups I have now. I bought all as show prospects, though her pet price was the same. All but one finished his/her AKC championship. The one had several poinst and pulled up a testicle and one day it just wouldn't come down. I think the price isn't what matters, it is what you want that does. BYW, when my husband looked at my check book he was shocked at the price I bought the first one for ( much more than I did for a CH Sheltie), I replied "don't you think she's worth it?" and he agreed.


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## iluvhavs

What's in a name........Rico is from XXXXX stock. Still has eye problems, that are genetically inherited as well. At least that's what my opthamologist says.

As my vet tells me......havanese are becoming so popular now that we are all going to begin to see health issues we didn't see previously. That probably makes it more important to check whatever health testing is out there!


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang

Pepper was free, well, kind of. He was a stray that wandered out of the desert and became ours when no one claimed him. His 'garbage gut' cost me $250 and a thorough grooming another $50. He was a wretched mess when we got him. Filthy, matted, coated in urine, feces and foxtails. Getting him clean was a gross nightmare. He was so smelly that I bathed him twice and then took him to a pro because I could not get that awful shelter smell out of his coat.

So, for about $300 I am the proud owner of an undocumented Havanese. :biggrin1:

His temperament is good, he's a little shy in strange surroundings but he warms up eventually. He gets along well with our big and small dogs - and the cat. I found him easy to potty train, but then he was about 9-mos old when we got him.

He does have CD in his left foreleg, but not his right. He also has a slight underbite. Everything else is ideal (at least in my book).

Overall, he's turned out to be a life changer for me and worth much more than I paid.


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## juliav

Gizmo'sMom said:


> Has anyone else found that their Hav is more comfortable around big dogs then small. Gizmo seems to shy away from puppies/dogs her size, but after a while she gets comfortable, but big dogs she fine and will go up and play and try to jump on them.


My Bugsy prefers to play with large dogs, but that's probably because he lives with two standards. He actually prefers to rough house with my much larger male who is 71 lbs than with my 41 lb female. I think my hav thinks he is a standard poodle.


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## Havtahava

Rory, I don't know why you felt you needed to post a breeder's kennel name and say your dog is a decedent of that kennel and has eye problems. If you didn't get your dog directly from them, what can they do about it?


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## iluvhavs

I only mentioned the kennel name because a previous post noted the name as being a good thing. My comment was "what does it matter?" Frustration, I guess. And you're right, Kimberly. They don't have control over what happens to other XXXXXX dogs. And these problems are only now starting to show up, so if the breeding was done 5 years ago, there's not much that can be done now.

I just get aggravated reading that if you pay so much for your dog and you buy from a reputable breeder, etc, etc, etc, that you will somehow be spared all the problems of a dog that doesn't come from that type of breeeder. And it's just not true. That was my point. Many health problems go undetected until it's too late.


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## Havtahava

Well, every breeder is going to have something crop up in a puppy somewhere, but you're not even saying this is a dog directly from them. For all we know, these are grandparents or even farther back. 

Anyway, my point is that all breeders are going to face a health problem cropping up at some point. The point is that you breed away from it once you know it is there. 

Your post almost makes it sound like xxxx breeder has a bunch of eye problems in their dogs, and they are aware of it and continue to produce these same problems anyway. BUT, you didn't even get your dog from them, right?

My main bitch has another kennel name on her - because that is where I got her. She's been the anchor of most of my breeding program (puppies from her and grandpuppies of hers have left my home). I've had a couple of health issues pop up over the years, but I most certainly wouldn't cite the kennel name on her as being the root. The dogs came from MY house and I'm the one who needed to know about the problems and make sure I didn't continue breeding dogs that would have those same genetic issues.

Does that make sense? I just think it is in poor taste to keep mentioning any certain kennel name when the dog didn't even come from that home.


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## psow9421

Tom King said:


> Just inserting this as an example. Our pets are $2,000. We have about 3 litters a year. We never have paid a professional handler or specialed a dog. We do all the health testing you have ever heard of and others that most have never heard of. Our pups are potty trained, socialized, and we spare no effort to provide the best possible.
> 
> Last year was the first year we showed a profit. Our Schedule C (IRS form for businesses)showed a profit of $458.00. I didn't claim any depreciation on the addition to the house for the dog complex. I just thought we needed to "show" a profit with all the proposed legislation-that we are mostly in favor of-and show that we are "professional" breeders.
> 
> We don't even try to compete with puppy sales on price and volume.
> 
> How much less would anyone have us do so we could sell puppies for less money?


 You are right! I paid 1500 for a pet and 2000 for my show puppies. It was well worth it to me because I Knew the breeders had tested and they were from a good line. I have finished my 1st show girl and now I am working on her grand championship. I will not breed her untill she is fully tested. I only want to produce healthy pups. I also handle my own Havanese in shows. When I win I know it is because I have a good dog. I don't know how to cover up faults and I don't want to know. My Lindy is my first show Bitch and I love the bond I have with her! Yes, I will also charge 2,000 when I do breed and I am not looking to make a profit. It cost a lot of money to breed a good dog! 
Pam From RI


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## iluvhavs

OK, I'm going back and removing the name of the kennel. I didn't think it was in "poor taste" when we're talking about the health of the breed. But I'll remove it.

Rico's sire is from XXXXX, and from what I understand, both his dam and his sire were most likely carriers of a gene that caused his problems. Now these breeders did not know that these dogs were carriers when they were being bred, and it was only a twist of fate that two carriers mated to produce a dog effected by this gene. That's why it's so important to make sure everyone is aware there can be problems. New, not previously detected problems do happen. These problems can be "bred around", if they can be detected. That's the main reason why I have entered Rico's DNA in a research program to help develop a DNA test to help avoid this issue.

I don't believe my post made it sound as though this kennel did anything intentionally. But to not talk about these problems is wrong. 

Sorry to have high-jacked this thread...let's return it. I won't post about this issue again.


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## pacehavi

Rory--I do understand what you mean and it is frustrating. As I've mentioned before, my girl had some minor genetic health problems--nothing long lasting albeit expensive. Since she came from an HCA reputable breeder and I had a contract, I thought the breeder would be mortified and of course offer to help pay for the expense. 

Wrong. I basically got a 'oh so sorry, that's too bad' and then when I asked for financial help (as per the contract) the breeder threatened to sue me because I had a specialist correct the problem before consulting them. To diagnose the issue my girl had to be anesthsized (which I did not realize before going into the appointment), and then the vet wanted to do the procedure right away, so there wasn't time for a consultation with the breeder. The breeder also tried to dispute that the problem was genetic, even though the specialist wrote to them to explain it in detail. Maybe I was wrong in allowing the procedure to happen before consulting the breeder, but being threatened to be sued for taking care of my dog and incurring thousands of dollars of expense seemed ridiculous, malicious, and only due to my wanting them to help financially with the genetic issue. So, in my case, this HCA reputable breeder created incredible stress for me and offered absolutely no support. 

Now, that's not to say all reputable breeders aren't worth it--I know those on this message board ARE and I would definitely recommend friends/family to buy a dog from them--and I'm sure many many other breeders are fantastic too. And I really hope my case is the odd one--maybe this breeder is even usually excellent and I just didn't interact with them well--who knows? But I think it's hard to know beforehand who's great and who's not within breeding circles if you're not in these show circles beforehand. I'm sure within show circles there are breeders who are not well respected, but it seems pet owners can't find this out easily if these breeders are members of the local or national breed clubs.

Sorry for the long post!


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## Havtahava

iluvhavs said:


> I don't believe my post made it sound as though this kennel did anything intentionally. But to not talk about these problems is wrong.
> 
> Sorry to have high-jacked this thread...let's return it. I won't post about this issue again.


Posting about health concerns is good and enlightening for all. Posting a breeder's name when you have a puppy with problems is harsh, *but part of what is expected and all breeders know that*. Posting about the human grandparent of a dog with problems is extreme, especially when you didn't post about your dog's dam's side or even your dog's breeder. I'm not sticking up for the breeder of your dog's sire [XXX breeder] (haven't even talked to her in probably two years, so it isn't like we are buddies or anything) but just making a point.

Thank you for removing the kennel name. It is unjust simply because people come here, register so they can learn more, do a search for a specific phrase and could have found those specific posts which would be misleading since they didn't even come from her home. It just bodes poorly all the way around and I'm glad she didn't see it when it was posted.


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## Evye's Mom

davetgabby said:


> Molly's worth a million. But only paid $1200 . Saved $998,800 What a deal.


Dave, you took the words right out of my mouth. Evye I paid $1500, Bentley was $1300. I wouldn't sell them for $1,000,000.00 even on their worst days.


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## SMARTY

Evye's Mom said:


> I wouldn't sell them for $1,000,000.00 even on their worst days.


I Would.......Anyone with an extra $1,000,000, that is one million dollars, looking for a slightly used, spoiled, picky, mated at times, bed hog, couch hog, leaf tracking Havanese contact me. I will offer a guaranteed return policy of 50% when you bring them back. Some contract restrictions apply.


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## Missy

SMARTY said:


> I Would.......Anyone with an extra $1,000,000, that is one million dollars, looking for a slightly used, spoiled, picky, mated at times, bed hog, couch hog, leaf tracking Havanese contact me. I will offer a guaranteed return policy of 50% when you bring them back. Some contract restrictions apply.


Ha ha ha Sandi! but what if they keep them?

This is what I think... having got both our dogs from questionable breeders one worse than the other. Problems do pop up. as do with any living thing, dogs are very complex and in many ways have a health system similar to humans... s*&% happens. The environment, food, ticks, tick treatment, you name it can cause auto-immune or other problems long after you dog has left the breeder. Some dogs get cataracts, displasia, thyroid problems, (or they just eat poop) that has never been seen in a line before. BUT, IMO, what you get from a good breeder, a breeder who has done all the health testing, who does the socialization, and talks and explains it all passionately, is you get an experienced partner for the life of the dog to help you through the rough spots. And you get someone who cares enough if something happens to look carefully at your pups parents and not breed those dogs again.

I feel fortunate that have many fine breeders on the Forum, who have adopted me and my dogs as I go through things, because the breeders my boys came from are not around. But that too is ok because I wouldn't trade them for the world (who wants the world anyway.... a million, perhaps) But next time I will be smarter, in my case anyway, it was the same money for questionable breeding.


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## SMARTY

Missy said:


> Ha ha ha Sandi! but what if they keep them? /QUOTE]
> 
> Are you kidding? They would probably pay me extra to take them back. My girls are very demanding.


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## Evye's Mom

Mine are too Sandi. Spoiled rotten (more rotten). Any potential buyer wouldn't even make it out of the driveway. Guess that means I have to keep them.


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## galaxie

Maddie was $850 in 2005, she was not from a reputable breeder. I had no idea what I was supposed to be looking for, and there sure wasn't much info about Havanese on the web at that time. Luckily, she has had no health issues to date and has been a great pet!

Almost five years later, and faaaar more educated, I purchased Roscoe for $1800. He is from Yuppy Puppy Havanese and I couldn't be happier with his breeder. Janet is amazing!

I adopted Stella at no cost, as she has a nutritional cataract. We knew that she would probably cost us a fair amount in ophthalmologist bills, but it's well worth it. She has been the perfect addition to our little family  She and Roscoe are best buds!


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## PattyNJ

We got Buttons from Petfinder. I paid $10 for an application fee and were going to charge $400 for her when they brought her to our house. That woman loved her dog so much she gave her to me with tears in her eyes and told me to keep my money and just take good care of her.

It was a rocky few weeks as Buttons missed her original family. Over time she has grown to love us and we're crazy about her. Now, I think I have MHS because I want another one!


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## Gizmo'sMom

I so would love to get another some day. Just where we live wouldn't allow it right now  Someday though!


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## Miss Paige

I will match you spoiled Sandi-but then that is what they are suppose to be. My Rommy Man is not as rotten as the girls-what is it about girls and being really really spoiled.

I was grocery shopping today and got a small piece of fish-the guy standing next to me was getting salmon-told him it was a good buy and to enjoy it-cause my three pupster kids sure like that salmon-thought I was going to have to pick him up off the floor.

Pat (humom to)
Miss Paige
Mr Roman
Ms Frannie


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## LoudRam

We paid $400 for Ruffles but we found her in a rescue in MD. We have no history on her. She was left on the steps of the rescue. She was very shy at first and still is around strangers. She's also jumpy at times. We think she was abused. But around us she's a typical Hav. She's loving, friendly, and loads of fun to play with. She loves to be chased and always has to lay at our feet. She's a great addition to our family.


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## lfung5

My guys were 1500.00, 2000.00, and 2000.00. They were worth every penny!


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## peluitohavanese

Janizona said:


> Here's a hint - I don't know of ANY reputable quality breeder that would place their pups on puppyfind! Ugh. Please don't go there......ask on the Forum for reference of breeders or go the the HCA website and see their breeder listings. If they don't have pups, just ask them for referrals.


Amen! Any breeder who is reputable and puts puppies for sale on that website is in some terrible company surrounded by some not so reputable breeders, so why do it when there are better places?


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## krandall

Tom King said:


> We don't even try to compete with puppy sales on price and volume.
> 
> How much less would anyone have us do so we could sell puppies for less money?


Not me, Tom. You know how happy we have been, not only with Kodi, but with our experience with you and Pam as breeders. You and Pam have been there for me every time I've had a question or concern, or just wanted to share a milestone. I know there are other conscientious breeders, both on this list and off, who share your views on breeding, puppy rearing, and your responsibility to the puppies you produce.

Luck of the draw says that SOME of the under-bred puppy mill or back yard puppies out there will be healthy with good dispositions. But the odds are so much better if you buy from a reputable breeder. Amortized over the life of the dog, $2000 is less than the cost of annual health care, let alone food, etc. (and we had a thread on how high all the "etc's" can go!!!:laugh

I want to make it clear that I am not "flaming" anyone. I know there are MANY people who come to this board after they have already purchased (or committed to purchase) a puppy mill or BYB puppy. Those people (at least on this board!) love their dogs just as much of the rest of us, and usually they've learned to be more careful the next time. Hopefully, their first time doesn't cause them too much heart ache... we've seen that too.

But I have a bit of a problem bouncing around internet and BYB prices (pet stores often still sell mill puppies for premium prices) as if it's OK to look for bargain Havs. (or any other pure bred dog for that matter) We all know they are out there. We all know that some of our members have them and love them. But that doesn't mean we should encourage it.


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## krandall

pacehavi said:


> Both of mine were $2000 from two separate reputable breeders associated with HCA. I wouldn't trade these two in for anything and they are perfect for our household, but...for the money I now know there are better breeders (such as the ones that frequent this board!) I knew not to buy from a pet store, puppy mill, or back yard breeder but I found it very very difficult to discern great reputable breeders from good and okay reputable breeders (or even disreputable reputable breeders!).


I agree, for the first-time puppy buyer, that is very, very difficult. Fortunately, I have a friend who is a dog trainer who helped me "vet out" breeders, and then I was lucky to find my breeder on this board. Because of all I'd read here, AND the help of my friend, I felt very confident in my purchase. But I could have easily purchased from a less diligent breeder if I hadn't had a lot of help with the process. Even if you know to avoid mill dogs and BYB's sorting through the rest can be daunting for the beginner!


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## krandall

Lilly'sMom said:


> Out of curiosity, I was just looking at puppyfind. It is amazing how many Havanese puppies are available for well under $1000. The ads of the sellers look very legitimate, so you really can't blame people for not knowing better, especially those of us that grew up when dogs were just dogs. I don't know how people can be better educated on the matter.


I think people need to educate themselves. Just as most people put some research into buying a car or choosing a college, people should also put some research into choosing a dog. I started looking for a dog in January, and picked Kodi up in July. Unfortunately, puppies are impulse purchases for far too many people. I am not pointing fingers at anyone in particular here, I am speaking in generalities. This is a large part of why so many dogs end up in shelters. People have no idea what they are getting themselves into.


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## krandall

psow9421 said:


> You are right! I paid 1500 for a pet and 2000 for my show puppies. It was well worth it to me because I Knew the breeders had tested and they were from a good line. I have finished my 1st show girl and now I am working on her grand championship. I will not breed her untill she is fully tested. I only want to produce healthy pups. I also handle my own Havanese in shows. When I win I know it is because I have a good dog. I don't know how to cover up faults and I don't want to know. My Lindy is my first show Bitch and I love the bond I have with her! Yes, I will also charge 2,000 when I do breed and I am not looking to make a profit. It cost a lot of money to breed a good dog!
> Pam From RI


Hi Pam,

I heard about a cute little B&W Hav going to Masterpeace for Agility. Is that Lindy Hop?


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## krandall

SMARTY said:


> Missy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ha ha ha Sandi! but what if they keep them? /QUOTE]
> 
> Are you kidding? They would probably pay me extra to take them back. My girls are very demanding.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you remember that short story from school, "The Ransom of Red Chief"?:evil::evil::evil:
Click to expand...


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## klomanchiodo

We got Willow from a reputable breeder, whom we now oeves her babies and cares to maintain the breed at its healthiest. She cost us $1800. We swore we would never pay this much for a dog, but when we met Willow, my husband didn't even flinch when he told me to go get the checkbook. The amount of joy she has brought us in the month she has been home is priceless!


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## waybrook

[email protected] said:


> We got Willow from a reputable breeder, whom we now oeves her babies and cares to maintain the breed at its healthiest. She cost us $1800. We swore we would never pay this much for a dog, but when we met Willow, my husband didn't even flinch when he told me to go get the checkbook. The amount of joy she has brought us in the month she has been home is priceless!


Well, I jealous - cause my DH did flinch at the 2K price for Panda! He's better now, and wouldn't trade her for anything, but still occasionally mentions her purchase price.....


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## peluitohavanese

waybrook said:


> Well, I jealous - cause my DH did flinch at the 2K price for Panda! He's better now, and wouldn't trade her for anything, but still occasionally mentions her purchase price.....


Mine does that all the time with my furkids. I am pretty rough with the DH...I just tell him he's cost me much more than that and if he don't like it he can hit the road... LOL!


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## DaisyMazy

Daisy was $1,850 plus I had to pay for a crate, plane fare, and for her papers. I think about $2,000 OTD.


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## krandall

waybrook said:


> Well, I jealous - cause my DH did flinch at the 2K price for Panda! He's better now, and wouldn't trade her for anything, but still occasionally mentions her purchase price.....


My husband had the good sense not to ask.


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## good buddy

[email protected] said:


> We got Willow from a reputable breeder, whom we now oeves her babies and cares to maintain the breed at its healthiest. She cost us $1800. We swore we would never pay this much for a dog, but when we met Willow, my husband didn't even flinch when he told me to go get the checkbook. The amount of joy she has brought us in the month she has been home is priceless!


Sounds very much like my DH. If I wanted another dog today, be it a rescue with three legs and blind or a brand new Havane$e puppy, I doubt he would even flinch. My Hav's have been worth every penny I paid for them!


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## Gableshavs

I paid $1500 for my first baby, Dorie, then $2000 for Marya from the same breeder. I bought Blossom for $1500 and Ruby was $2000. They are the best dogs I have ever owned and I've had dogs all my life. All health tested, Marya and Ruby are champions but it makes no difference they all rule and enrich this family. I love their antics, their charming personalities and how they dance for kisses.


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## klomanchiodo

Our second puppy, Bella, cost $450. However, she had a unique situation. Her breeder was diagnosed with cancer shortly after the pups were born and was unable to devote the amount of time and effort she ordinarily does in her litters. With her surgery and treatments, the pups were not socialized the way she ordinarily would have done. They also did not receive the same amount of attention in terms of grooming and training. Whe was 20 weeks old before the breeder was healthy enough to begin finding homes for the pups - she therefore reduced the price from her ordinary $1200.


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## Mojo's Mom

$1500. That works out to roughly a buck for each puncture the little savage put in my skin during the first six months. He was a wild man and there were times I wondered if I'd put my $1500 in the right place...

However, he's grown into an absolute sweetheart, gorgeous and healthy and I consider him a bargain.


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## Luciledodd

Well it seems that most of you paid a good deal more for your pups than I did; but Rosie is worth all the world to me. That being said, most of you talk about the reputable breeders. But most pet buyers don't know where to find them. HCA only has 32 breeders on there site. Not many in the southeast. Then there is the problem that one doesn't know about HCA anyway. Most novices don't know about health testing either. We figure that two registered dogs can produce puppies that are the breed standard. I checked the internet yesterday for Havanese in TN. Got a million hits. Most are puppy mills, some are BYB and one may be a reputable breeder from Nashville. Hard to tell from the ad. It says all the right things and they even have an application to fill out. The nashville newspaper occassionally has havanese puppies advertized for around $1000. Then there are the Teddybear puppies. Boy are they cute. Havanese and some other breed mixes for lots of money also. You would think that the first hit on the internet would be HCA and a reputable breeders list--not so. 

When I got Rosie, I typed in by state within driving distance and found two breeders in Alabama. I didn't know about the Magnolia Havanese club there. Neither of the breeders are members. Course I got Rosie from one of them. I don't regret getting her and wouldn't trade her for the world champion now. 

Like I have said before, with the popularity of the Havanese growing nationwide, there will soon be lots of them in shelters and staked out in backyards because the public wants what is popular at the time and doesn't think about what is involved with maintaining these little dogs. A lot of us didn't know about the forum either. I found it by searching on grooming and the forum came up. After reading the post, decided to join. Then I got an education about havanese that I couldn't get from other sources. Keep up the good work. 

Lucile


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## marjrc

*"HCA only has 32 breeders on there site. Not many in the southeast. Then there is the problem that one doesn't know about HCA anyway." *

Yes, and being a member of HCA doesn't automatically make you a good breeder.


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## iluvhavs

And being a good breeder does not quarantee against health problems.


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## AKathy

I paid $2000 for Stella and $389 for airfare. She was worth every penny!


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## Janizona

iluvhavs said:


> And being a good breeder does not quarantee against health problems.


No it does not. It's what the breeder does when and if there are problems that makes a good breeder.

BUT - if you purchase from someone that has a good reputation within the Hav community to uphold, that tests the parents to make sure that they do not have hip dysplasia, cataracts, are deaf, have a liver shunt, patellas that pop out when they walk, elbow dysplasia or a heart murmur - your chances that the pup will be healthy are MUCH greater! Add to that a breeder that socializes the pups and only raises a few litters a year in their home and you'll end up with a cheaper puppy in the end.


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## j.j.'s mom

hmmm.. doesn't matter to me what i paid for j.j.
he is a very well bred dog from an excellent breeder.
i learned a lot before i got him from sites like HCA.
but the important thing is that he is worth
more than $1,000,000 to me!!!
that being said, my first dog was a heinz 57 i bought at the san jose flea market
many years ago and she was a fabulous dog.
next dog i rescued and was "purebred" cocker spaniel...
i now think this was a puppy mill dog....
no matter where they come from, we love them all!!
marcia aka j.j.'s mom


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## klomanchiodo

Here's a funny little story. I had one of the neighborhood boys who stops by to play with the puppies offer me his Dad's corvette for either Bella or Willow. I told him there was no way I would go for that deal. When he made the offer to Sam, he said back - "I don't think so!"


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## susieg

We paid $ 2000 for Lola. After having to care for a sickly rescue dog who I had to put down after only loving her for 3 years, I was willing to pay more for a breed with relatively few health problems and from health tested parents. I was obsessed with going on the OFFA website, I even made excel spreadsheets comparing the health records of the different breeders I was considering.


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## Eva

When I first contacted Todd's breeder about a puppy I mentioned that I was a little concerned about all of the grooming needed to keep a Hav coat in good condition..lucky for me she steered me toward the easy care short hair and I saved over $1000 ..Sooo I got to spend A LOT of money on toys and supplies


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## krandall

And how could he be any cuter?<g> A short hair wouldn't be for me, since I have allergies, but I think they are awfully cute... especially if you want the temperament/personality of a Hav, but don't want to deal with either lots of grooming or regular hair cuts! (and especially Todd... gotta love that little face!!!)

But "reputable" Hav breeders who have them are going to do exactly what yours did and sell them for less, as pets only, not at a premium because they are "rare".


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## Eva

krandall said:


> *And how could he be any cuter?* <g> A short hair wouldn't be for me, since I have allergies, but I think they are awfully cute... especially if you want the temperament/personality of a Hav, but don't want to deal with either lots of grooming or regular hair cuts! (and especially Todd... gotta love that little face!!!)
> 
> But "reputable" Hav breeders who have them are going to do exactly what yours did and sell them for less, as pets only, not at a premium because they are "rare".


Awww...thanks! 
Yep, his breeder was upfront about the whole short hair gene and told me that he wasn't desirable as a breed standard but since I only wanted a pet he's absolutely perfect! 
I have pet allergies also. (didn't until after I brought Todd home) Todd doesn't affect me at all..I've fostered a couple of dogs that made me sneeze and my nose run like crazy but I can bury my nose in Todd's fur and not a single itch..it's great


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## Lunastar

Gizmo'sMom said:


> Well when I got Gizmo I got her at the pet store (I didn't know about puppy mills/BYB then until I went to Petco and Gizmo and I got a lot of bad looks/comments). I feel bad for having supported a possible Mill or BYB but I love Gizmo and she is pretty perfect. I paid $1,850 for her (which with that price and what they had said I thought I was doing the right thing).
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. - I have been donating to some groups to help dogs to make up for the mistake so please no nasty posts


I am so happy you have since educated yourself. I hope you keep HRI in your thoughts when you are donating. I am so glad that your Gizmo does not have any health troubles.


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## krandall

Eva said:


> Awww...thanks!
> Yep, his breeder was upfront about the whole short hair gene and told me that he wasn't desirable as a breed standard but since I only wanted a pet he's absolutely perfect!
> I have pet allergies also. (didn't until after I brought Todd home) Todd doesn't affect me at all..I've fostered a couple of dogs that made me sneeze and my nose run like crazy but I can bury my nose in Todd's fur and not a single itch..it's great


That's great to know... I thought the short hairs were supposed to bother people with allergies.


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## galaxie

krandall said:


> That's great to know... I thought the short hairs were supposed to bother people with allergies.


It depends on what you're allergic to. There are three types of dog allergies: hair, dander, and saliva. She is probably allergic to dander, but since Havs have that skin that isn't like most dogs, they don't give off the same amount of dander (even the Shavs!).

Cat allergies are the same. I'm allergic to all three when it comes to cats, so as you can imagine, I'm a lot of fun after about 10 minutes in a cat household


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## krandall

galaxie said:


> It depends on what you're allergic to. There are three types of dog allergies: hair, dander, and saliva. She is probably allergic to dander, but since Havs have that skin that isn't like most dogs, they don't give off the same amount of dander (even the Shavs!).
> 
> Cat allergies are the same. I'm allergic to all three when it comes to cats, so as you can imagine, I'm a lot of fun after about 10 minutes in a cat household


The funny thing about me is that I am allergic to everyone else's cats, but my body seems to adjust to the cat I live with. (each one of them through the years) The only exception is Siamese or other short haired orientals. I am EXTREMELY allergic to all of them. For some reason I am LESS allergic to long haired cats in general. (so, in spite of the hair mess and extra grooming involved, we usually have had long haired kitties)


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## irnfit

Same with me. I have 3 cats and I'm fine with them, unless I forget to wash my hands and touch my eyes. Then I'm in trouble. I am also more allergic to some dogs than others, like the SharPei.


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## jillnors2

> Originally Posted by Janizona
> Here's a hint - I don't know of ANY reputable quality breeder that would place their pups on puppyfind! Ugh. Please don't go there......


There are several HCA recommended breeders (these breeders are on the HCA website referral page) with Havanese currently listed on puppyfind.


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## Evye's Mom

krandall said:


> The funny thing about me is that I am allergic to everyone else's cats, but my body seems to adjust to the cat I live with. (each one of them through the years) The only exception is Siamese or other short haired orientals. I am EXTREMELY allergic to all of them. For some reason I am LESS allergic to long haired cats in general. (so, in spite of the hair mess and extra grooming involved, we usually have had long haired kitties)


I had 3 Himalayan cats and people who did have allergies with cats usually did not have a problem with their allergies when they were around mine. The allergy is usually due to cat dander. I think there is a lot to be said about allergies and long-haired cats. The grooming....grrrr. Way more than any Havanese.


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## Luciledodd

Can't test for liver shunt and heart murmur? I was assured that Rosie had been tested for liver shunt--didn't know what it was though. After reading your post, I looked it up. They do a bile acid test to see about the liver function. Evidently that is what all vets do when saying they test for liver shunt. Now about heart murmur--i strongly disagree. The first thing that my vet has done with all my dogs was listen to their hearts for signs of a murmur. It can be heard. Since I have one that is going to require open heart surgery sometime in the near future (I plan on outliving it lol), I am pretty up on all kinds of heart murmurs. I am pretty sure that there are specialists out there in the veternairy world that could do an echo cardigram also. Now to test for a heart murmur that may develop as the dog gets to be an adult to old age, that is something that is unknowable. Just like cancer is an unknown. But a congential murmur can be heard.

I am going in for an echo cardigram next week and on to the cardiologist for a report. Hopefully the cause of the murmur has not progressed to the open heart valve replacement yet.


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## Lunastar

I will send good vibes for that doctor appointment. I hope you can put that surgery off for a long while.


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## Luciledodd

Sorry I misunderstood thought you were talking about testing the puppies. We can't test human parents to see if they will have a child with a congential murmur either.

And yes Beth, I plan to put that surgery off for a long time. Course I will just be older and possible not as able to stand it then. But they don't do the surgery until it gets life threatening. So far, that has not been the case. I tend to feint for a few seconds every once in a while if I am overdoing. I have learned to pace myself.


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## irishnproud2b

We paid $1000 for Holly. There are lots of Hungarian names on her papers, which are not AKC. We didn't know what we were doing - hadn't had a dog in our marriage of almost 20 yrs at the time. That was in 2006. Holly just turned 4 in July and we love that spunky, spoiled, bossy little fur ball! She loves it when we get a foster so she has someone to play with. Our Duffy is a "large" Hav with an underbite from who we now believe was a BYB. He was $700. He is "Limited AKC." We have him on a perpetual diet because, even though we walk him daily, he is our "slug" the rest of the time. Doesn't care for toys or playing. Sometimes Holly goes and barks in his face and bites at him just to get him to chase her so she can play. It used to work but he's on to her now. We love his laid-back, flip-over "rub my tummy" sweet disposition! DH and I can't even imagine life without them. How boring it would be.


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## barbarak

Huggie was $2000. I'm getting more value for that $2000 than anything else I've ever bought. He is so happy and healthy and smart! He's cute and funny and has the best temperament! "We belong to a Mutual Admiration Society....my baby and me." He gives me such unconditional love and so much happiness. *♥ ♥ *

He definitely wasn't an impulse buy. I joined the forum a year ago and read as much as I could about Havs, although I didn't post anything until he got here in June. I met people with Havs and talked to them and went to a couple of dog shows. I picked Kathy (Bellatak Havanese) as a breeder and put in an application with her a year before I got him. I know there are a lot of great breeders here on the forum so it's a good place to find one. When I met her last June and met some of her dogs, I just knew I wanted one of them! Every one of them was sweet and beautiful. She's really passionate about her dogs and finding the best homes she can for them. She was up front with me and told me she didn't take deposits and it wasn't "first come, first served".

I went to her home and met her other dogs and puppies and I wanted one so bad but I was afraid I wasn't going to get one because I was going to Hawaii for 2 weeks at the time she planned to place the puppies in their new homes. :fear: Looking back on it, it was kind of a gamble only applying with one breeder. When I found out the weekend before I was leaving for Hawaii that I was going to get one, I felt like I had just won the lottery! :cheer2:

I didn't know which one I was getting until just before I came home. It didn't even matter to me because I told her at the beginning that I didn't care what sex or color it was as long as it had a great temperament and was healthy! I knew that any one of them would fit that bill. And Huggie fit it perfectly!

So, what is Huggie worth to me? *PRICELESS!!!!!*


----------



## Lunastar

barbarak said:


> Huggie was $2000. I'm getting more value for that $2000 than anything else I've ever bought. He is so happy and healthy and smart! He's cute and funny and has the best temperament! "We belong to a Mutual Admiration Society....my baby and me." He gives me such unconditional love and so much happiness. *♥ ♥ *
> 
> He definitely wasn't an impulse buy. I joined the forum a year ago and read as much as I could about Havs, although I didn't post anything until he got here in June. I met people with Havs and talked to them and went to a couple of dog shows. I picked Kathy (Bellatak Havanese) as a breeder and put in an application with her a year before I got him. I know there are a lot of great breeders here on the forum so it's a good place to find one. When I met her last June and met some of her dogs, I just knew I wanted one of them! Every one of them was sweet and beautiful. She's really passionate about her dogs and finding the best homes she can for them. She was up front with me and told me she didn't take deposits and it wasn't "first come, first served".
> 
> I went to her home and met her other dogs and puppies and I wanted one so bad but I was afraid I wasn't going to get one because I was going to Hawaii for 2 weeks at the time she planned to place the puppies in their new homes. :fear: Looking back on it, it was kind of a gamble only applying with one breeder. When I found out the weekend before I was leaving for Hawaii that I was going to get one, I felt like I had just won the lottery! :cheer2:
> 
> I didn't know which one I was getting until just before I came home. It didn't even matter to me because I told her at the beginning that I didn't care what sex or color it was as long as it had a great temperament and was healthy! I knew that any one of them would fit that bill. And Huggie fit it perfectly!
> 
> So, what is Huggie worth to me? *PRICELESS!!!!!*


Now that is wonderful! I feel that way about all of my girls. I have four. The oldest two are littermates and I had no clue what I was doing. Thankfully they are for the most part healthy so far. We have had some pancreatitis. The younger two are 7 and 5 months from different breeders. Both excellent breeders. Cassie is came from Farah who is on the list. She is a fabulous girl with the best temperment. Reina came from a Florida breeder that I know personally. Also a great puppy. They are truly pricelss.


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## galaxie

irishnproud2b said:


> We paid $1000 for Holly. There are lots of Hungarian names on her papers, which are not AKC. We didn't know what we were doing - hadn't had a dog in our marriage of almost 20 yrs at the time. That was in 2006. Holly just turned 4 in July and we love that spunky, spoiled, bossy little fur ball! She loves it when we get a foster so she has someone to play with.


There's nothing wrong with Hungarian dogs! Roscoe's dad (CH Kantorvari Mini Cedrik) comes from Hungarian lines, he is an AKC champion and all of his relatives were champions in Europe


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## irishnproud2b

Oh, I totally agree. Holly is perfect! We adore her. She has no health issues. The problem I was alluding to is that the person we bought her from and the website disappeared from the internet. When I Googled her name I found tons of complaints. And when my husband and I went to the Nationals last year, we happened to sit at a table with a lady from Nebraska. Chit-chatting, we found out she had bought 2 dogs from her and was told they were show quality. The lady later found out they were not. When we went to get our puppy, this "breeder" said the mother was not there (we drove 3 1/2 hrs to get Holly) because a Hungarian friend nearby had the male and that's where the mother was. Only Holly was there and, of course, we fell in love immediately! We left with our little 4 month old and are not a bit sorry! But in Googling, I also found out (in the complaints) that she(in Illinois) and her brother in California were together getting pups in Hugary and shipping them over here to sell. I can only think that it was probably a Hungarian puppy mill. We lucked out, though - Holly is another Priceless Havie!


----------



## mamahava

I am on a wait list for a pup, and the price for male or female is 1800


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## Matilda

The male we are getting in a couple of weeks is $1400.


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## Janizona

jillnors2 said:


> There are several HCA recommended breeders (these breeders are on the HCA website referral page) with Havanese currently listed on puppyfind.


Actually.....there is no such thing as an AKC or HCA recommended breeder. To get on the HCA "list" you first must be an HCA member. Second you are supposed to provide proof of health testing for parents and third you have to pay $50 to be listed for the year. Now that said, someone could list a litter from health tested parents one time and continue to have pups available thru the year from untested parents. I have seen it done.

I stick by my original statement. I personally do not know any quality breeders that would advertise on puppyfind and I would NEVER send anyone to a website that supports puppy mills.


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## Janizona

carol f said:


> Can't test for Heart murmurs or liver shunts. My vet told us so.
> 
> Beware of puppyfind. Many Puppymills on there and unresponsible show breeders who keep their dogs in horrible conditions. I have seen a show breeder on there and the conditions of the puppies were horrible.


Not sure what your vet is talking about, of course you can! A bile acid test with pre and post results will show directly what the liver is doing. This can be done on a 14 week old pup easily. I have tested them as young as 10 weeks and of course all adults are tested. There are also other definitive tests that can be done if those results come back suspicious.

On the heart, a specialist can test the heart by Echo and/or EKG but most are trained to listen with stethoscope. We have all adults checked and of course if we thought a puppy had a problem the specialist would find it.

Breeders should be providing results to puppy buyers for ALL testing done.


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## irishnproud2b

Janet, who is that cutie you are holding in your avatar? Adorable!!!


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## Lunastar

Yes I want to know too. what a gorgeous color!


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## Janizona

irishnproud2b said:


> Janet, who is that cutie you are holding in your avatar? Adorable!!!


Thank you! That is my pretty little girl from Germany "Ninifee Blue Temptation"

=)

More pictures of her on my website and I have a bunch on the camera from the National this past week.


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## galaxie

Janizona said:


> Thank you! That is my pretty little girl from Germany "Ninifee Blue Temptation"
> 
> =)
> 
> More pictures of her on my website and I have a bunch on the camera from the National this past week.


She is GORGEOUS!!! I love these "blondes" out of Germany. They are so stunning! One day, one day...


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## jetsetgo!

She really is a beauty, Janet!


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## Luciledodd

She is so pretty, I almost mistook her for a statue.


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## Wildflower

We paid $500 for our Holly. Of course now I know I bought from a BYB (friend) but both of her parents came from very reputable breeders (I have read about both breeders on this forum). She is not AKC and we couldn't care less about that.

My uncle in Massachusetts -- and now possibly my aunt in California -- are looking to add a Havanese to their family. They're both in their 60's and single. My uncle found a breeder on the east coast and one on the west coast and he likes them both and is on their waiting lists and hoping to have a puppy before the end of the year. West coast breeder is $2500 and he will fly round trip to pick up the puppy. East coast breeder is $2700 and he can drive. 

He has told both breeders his sister is interested in a puppy but she is waiting until she retires from her job in early 2011. 

So we may be adding not one but two new Havs to our extended family!


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## dbeech

Janizona said:


> Thank you! That is my pretty little girl from Germany "Ninifee Blue Temptation"
> 
> =)
> 
> More pictures of her on my website and I have a bunch on the camera from the National this past week.


What a stunning dog! I love the picture of her "hanging in the garden."


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## galaxie

Wildflower said:


> We paid $500 for our Holly. Of course now I know I bought from a BYB (friend) but both of her parents came from very reputable breeders (I have read about both breeders on this forum). She is not AKC and we couldn't care less about that.
> 
> My uncle in Massachusetts -- and now possibly my aunt in California -- are looking to add a Havanese to their family. They're both in their 60's and single. My uncle found a breeder on the east coast and one on the west coast and he likes them both and is on their waiting lists and hoping to have a puppy before the end of the year. West coast breeder is $2500 and he will fly round trip to pick up the puppy. East coast breeder is $2700 and he can drive.
> 
> He has told both breeders his sister is interested in a puppy but she is waiting until she retires from her job in early 2011.
> 
> So we may be adding not one but two new Havs to our extended family!


Those prices are incredible! (ridiculous!) Too much. Who are the breeders?


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## pompeii

My little girl was a bargain, only $300. She is 5 years old and a "retired mom" having had two litters. She's a great little girl except that loves only me and only tolerates other people, including family. Other than that, she's happy and healthy and loves our other dog, a Papillon. I wish she would warm up to the rest of the family, but we're being patient and she is making some slow progress. Her previous owner also refunded $100 of her cost after I had her spayed. She is AKC and a Hungarian import.


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## klomanchiodo

pompeii said:


> My little girl was a bargain, only $300. She is 5 years old and a "retired mom" having had two litters. She's a great little girl except that loves only me and only tolerates other people, including family. Other than that, she's happy and healthy and loves our other dog, a Papillon. I wish she would warm up to the rest of the family, but we're being patient and she is making some slow progress. Her previous owner also refunded $100 of her cost after I had her spayed. She is AKC and a Hungarian import.


What a beautiful girl! Those eyes have stolen a little part of my heart.


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## iluvhavs

I guess those prices are ridiculous ($2700)! This is what bothers me about this thread. It seems a lot of folks think that the quality of the dog is directly related to the price they pay. That's just not true!

You can pay thousands for a puppy mill dog and under $1000 from a health testing, reputable breeder. And with all the due diligence in the world, it still doesn't quarantee a healthy dog. 

I suppose it's like most other purchases, be it cars, apparel, real estate.....some people just want to pay the most they can for something. That doesn't make it the best. Especially when you get to a breed that until recently most folks hadn't heard of. That gives the breed an exclusivity that allows for overcharging.....I bought my first Hav because I didn't want to pay the price for the Coton du Tulear I fell in love with. The CT was $3000! Supple and demand.


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## pjewel

Janizona said:


> Thank you! That is my pretty little girl from Germany "Ninifee Blue Temptation"
> 
> =)
> 
> More pictures of her on my website and I have a bunch on the camera from the National this past week.


I looked at her photos on your site. She is gorgeous. My Ruby has similar coloring but I think she'll be a little lighter red ultimately. We'll see.


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## Kathy

carol f said:


> Yes, In Puppies but you can't test the parents to see if they will have a liver shunt or heart murmur puppy.


None of the health testing that is done would let a breeder know if any puppy produced from the health tested parents would be born with a problem. However, doing the testing at least helps the breeder to know that she/he is starting with two healthy animals and one hopes it helps to minimize any offspring having issues.


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## pompeii

[email protected] said:


> What a beautiful girl! Those eyes have stolen a little part of my heart.


Thanks, she is a precious little thing. I believe the same person has another adult female she is trying to rehome. Anyone in NE Ohio interested? She is 4 years old and brown/white; I believe she is asking $300 with some of it refunded after spaying. I would get her myself except that I already have two dogs.

I'll try to post another photo of my Aurora, didn't work the first time. These are from right after we got her last fall when she was still sad. She is a much happier little girl now! I have her coat cut short now. I think she looks much better and she seems more comfortable. She sure is easier to take care of cut short!


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## jetsetgo!

She is precious!


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## Wildflower

galaxie said:


> Those prices are incredible! (ridiculous!) Too much. Who are the breeders?


I don't know who the breeders are. Both my aunt and uncle have been into the dog show world for many, many years (other breeds) and he located both breeders through his contacts. My aunt bred Lakeland terriers and Sealyham terriers for 30+ years.


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## Janizona

I agree, those are a bit steep! I don't even think the top winning dog owner in the breed sells their for that much.


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## Lizzielou

When I was searching for a new pet and came across Havanese I had never heard of them before. Then I found out how much they cost and I pretty much decided to pick another breed. I found Lizzie on Craigslist from a family that just didn't have time for her. They had gotten her from a pet store so she is probably a puppy mill dog. I bought her for $250 which I thought was a lot of money! She came with all kinds of stuff, toys, bed, shampoo etc. She is great with the kids and they are not allergic to her at all. She is such a wonderful dog both my mom and grandmother recently got puppies. They picked poodles even though I tried to get them to choose Havanese. She is such a sweet great tempered puppy.


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## marjrc

Just a gentle reminder.... this isn't a thread advertising possible puppies for sale, so please beware.


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## galaxie

iluvhavs said:


> You can pay thousands for a puppy mill dog and under $1000 from a health testing, reputable breeder. And with all the due diligence in the world, it still doesn't quarantee a healthy dog.


I don't agree. I have never seen a reputable breeder with health tested parents selling pups for under $1000. The lowest I have ever seen is $1600 CDN - then again, many breeders don't advertise their prices.


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## Janizona

Agreed. I have been in the breed since 1994 and know quite a lot of breeders. None of them are anywhere near $1000. I know of $1500 and up to $2200.


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## iluvhavs

I know personally of a breeder that health tests the parents, and also shows. Her dogs have won championships and been used as sires for breeders you all know. She sells her show quality dogs for the higher prices, but pet quality dogs go for $800 to $1000. I have several friends who know breeders, who health test and show that sell their "pet" quality pups for much less then you talk about.

My dad used to breed beagles. he did all the health testing and because he also competed in beagle field trials, he only bred the dogs that were sound hunters as well. He _gave_ his pet quality dogs away and sold his champion quality dogs for a few hundred. He just wanted to breed better hunting, sounder dogs. Not cover the cost of the hobby. If it's not a "business", it's a hobby.

I realize that if you want the sale of your pups to help finance your travel to shows and cover the cost of your patio renovations and other dog treats, you'd have to sell the pups for a considerable amount. And heck, it's your business, so you might as well get what you can. I am self employed and try to "write off" as much as I can to the business. I wish I could call my dogs part of my business. I could really build up those expenses!


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## Luciledodd

I have managed to "write off" some of Rosie's expenses to the business: pee pads and food used at the office. That is part of the cleaning and breakroom supplies. Be just my luck to get audited. LOL


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## krandall

Luciledodd said:


> I have managed to "write off" some of Rosie's expenses to the business: pee pads and food used at the office. That is part of the cleaning and breakroom supplies. Be just my luck to get audited. LOL


Um... tell them you use the pee pads to clean the floor, and put the food in the mouse traps.:biggrin1:


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## jillnors2

> I know personally of a breeder that health tests the parents, and also shows. Her dogs have won championships and been used as sires for breeders you all know. She sells her show quality dogs for the higher prices, but pet quality dogs go for $800 to $1000. I have several friends who know breeders, who health test and show that sell their "pet" quality pups for much less then you talk about


I personally know a top Papillon breeder that was going to let me have a pup for $500 (ch parents who are health tested) since I do performance sports with my dogs and she wanted this dog in a performance home. I really respected her for this although I did not end up getting the pup.


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## galaxie

^ I can see that as as special case, but obviously this breeder does not sell her pet home puppies at that price on a regular basis!


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## iluvhavs

Do breeders talk to one another about their pricing? Is there an "unwritten code" about maintaining a certain price. Cause I have heard of several reputable breeders who do not participate on this board, but do the show circuit , one even had a dog at Westminster. They sell they pet quality pups for around $1000.

Could it be a regional thing? Or a cliquey (probably wrong word) thing?


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## krandall

iluvhavs said:


> Do breeders talk to one another about their pricing? Is there an "unwritten code" about maintaining a certain price. Cause I have heard of several reputable breeders who do not participate on this board, but do the show circuit , one even had a dog at Westminster. They sell they pet quality pups for around $1000.
> 
> Could it be a regional thing? Or a cliquey (probably wrong word) thing?


I believe you that you found breeders selling Havs for a lower price, but when I was looking for a puppy, before finding this board, I talked to a number of breeders in N.E., Maryland, N.C., California, Florida and Texas. NONE of them were on this board, and ALL of them except for one were between $1500 and $2000. The other one was $2500. None of them made any distinction between pet/show/breeding puppies in terms of price. I finally bought Kodi from the Kings (after meeting Tom through this board) and their price was right in line with everone else's.

I guess the question I would have, when SO many breeders charge in the same price range, is why (knowing the cost of producing good quality puppies) would a breeder charge less than the market price for their puppies? Especially when most of these breeders who ARE charging $1,500-$2,000 have waiting lists for their puppies.


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## paisley

Being new to this forum and the world of Havanese I am still curious what it is that drives the market to price these dogs so much higher than many other championship lines of dogs? Totally naive question, I know, but I only want dogs for their pet qualities so I guess I don't understand what it is that defines the market price of a certain dog breed.


----------



## Kathy

paisley said:


> Being new to this forum and the world of Havanese I am still curious what it is that drives the market to price these dogs so much higher than many other championship lines of dogs? Totally naive question, I know, but I only want dogs for their pet qualities so I guess I don't understand what it is that defines the market price of a certain dog breed.


There are many breeders in other breeds, not just in Havanese, that charge $2,000 or higher for a pet quality purebred dog. When a web site claims that a litter "comes from champion lines", that really translates to somewhere back in the pedigree there were dogs that were champions of some kind, doesn't always mean they were AKC champions either. Also, it means they are not dogs they bred or showed to their AKC championship.

When my son was looking for a puppy that was of another large breed, he found that good, honest, reliable breeders were charging $3,000 for a pet dog.

Also, a breeder will charge more if the puppy comes from a top winning bitch/dog as that line could be special based on who the dogs are in the pedigree.

As a breeder, I do a LOT with each litter I plan. I typically have just 1 litter a year as I am not breeding to just produce puppies. A lot of study, testing, time and planning goes in to what I do in my breeding program. It's not just putting a male and female together and hope to have a litter. I also don't use a sire simply because he is more convenient for me to use. I have flown with my female to the male I feel is the best for what I am hoping to produce and each litter to me I am hoping to improve the breed.

Another reason breeders might charge what some of you obviously consider to be to high is to weed out homes that might not be the best for a puppy. I am not saying this to insult any of you, but I have heard other breeders say this helps them when it is time to place puppies.

I stand behind my puppies for life and I am so lucky to have wonderful homes for the puppies I have produced who either have become very close friends or are like family to me. All of them are part of our family and cherish the cards, emails, pictures, videos and stories they all willingly share with me.


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## Luciledodd

Paisley I would imagine that the price of the puppies is what the market will stand and in any free market. I remember when I saw the first Great Pyremes (sp) 30 years ago. Everyone wanted one and they went at the time for around 1000. Now you can buy them all day long for 250-300. Everybody got in the business of breeding them and then they went out of favor except for farmers with goats and cattle. I still see them free to a good home advertized in our local paper. The Nashville paper has two havanese ads going now. One is 1000 for full reg. and 750 for limited. The other didn't mention price. That being said, I would imagine that a Great Pyrenese from a show breeder would still bring a very high price. And if you wait a few years, havanese will be a dime a dozen also like the little shih tzus and yorkies.

But the breeders like Kathy above probably don't charge enough for their puppies. With all that goes into the show ring and taking bitches to be bred, etc. Not enough money for the puppies and I commend breeders that produce that type of litters.


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## Kathy

Luciledodd said:


> And if you wait a few years, havanese will be a dime a dozen also like the little shih tzus and yorkies.


I sure hope you are wrong, but sadly I fear you are correct. It's THOSE kinds of breeders that harm any breed and should NOT be breeding. They are the ones that don't care if their $500 puppy ends up in a shelter or not. They are the ones that won't answer the phone when you call them with a question or concern.


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## paisley

So would you say that the Havanese breed is more the "designer" breed dujour?


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## Kathy

paisley said:


> So would you say that the Havanese breed is more the "designer" breed dujour?


Not sure what you mean, but the Havanese is not a "designer" breed at all.


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## Luciledodd

I think in the context that Paisley means it, yes. They are becoming the pet of the times, therefore, everyone wants one, then everyone breeds them and there they go.

Kathy lest you don't understand, I commend you on your program. And as I said, there has to be a lot of pride and love in a breeding program such as yours, and You are probably not charging enough for your puppies.

The reason I keep talking about shih tzus and yorkies is I had a bubble-head secretary that got a tiny yorkie for her 4 year old and promptly the child broke it legs and she had it put down. And a neighbor across the road from me had a 8 x 8 pen made and put her little shih tzu and a pit bull puppy in it this summer. The shih tzu piddled on her floor. Thankfully they moved last week and I don't have to see them when I go to the mail box


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## juliav

Havanese are by no means the only pricey dogs, when they come from reputable breeders. I also own two standard poodles (both adopted), I adore the breed and my next one (in about 8 to 10 years) will only come from the top notch breeder. In Northern California, top tier standard breeders (like Cabernet and Grandeur) charge $2,500.00 for their pet puppies and I don't think they make a distinction between show or pet pricing.


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## Luciledodd

And just try to buy a scottish terrier. I looked into getting one last spring--before I ever thought about Rosie. I could only find 2 breeders and one of them wouldn't sell me one because I had a swimming pool. After my little schnauzer died in July, I went back to the one breeder but ultimately decided that I didn't want another terrier and found that most have really bad flea allergies, so I went looking again for a completely different dog, long-lived and happy. Boy did I get the happy. And as a bonus, this is the first housedog that I have ever had that my husband is crazy about--double bonus.


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## iluvhavs

I just paid $62,000 for my new E-Coupe. That I consider a luxury item. I bought my dogs as family companions, not status symbols. My only consideration was to get healthy, happy dogs.

I guess kathy answered my question re: price. The more someone pays, the more exclusive they percieve that item to be. Doesn't make that item any better than the less expensive one, just more expensive. I didn't realize people who wanted to pay more for their dogs provided better families. That must mean that my first hav ($2000) is loved more then my second hav ($1000).


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## Luciledodd

I used to drive brand new BMW's and had an $8000 Alsation protection dog. Now I drive a Vibe and have a $750 Havanese. I have admitted that Rosie probably came from a hobby breeder; but I wouldn't trade her for anyother dog no matter the price. And my Vibe gets almost as good a milage as the Prius; but didn't cost half as much. 

I will say that someone that pays the price for a dog is less likely to abuse it or put it out in a pen. Although I have seen two little havanese in shelters one in Huntsville and the other in Memphis. The first one the couple was moving and couldn't take their dog--isn't that like you can't take your children? The other was something similar I think.

Oh yes, Pontiac decided to not make the Vibe anymore--probably like a disreputable breeder won't give you feedback.


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## krandall

Kathy said:


> I stand behind my puppies for life and I am so lucky to have wonderful homes for the puppies I have produced who either have become very close friends or are like family to me. All of them are part of our family and cherish the cards, emails, pictures, videos and stories they all willingly share with me.


While I didn't get Kodi from Kathy, it was JUST this kind of attitude that made me choose the (east coast!:biggrin1 breeder that I chose. I was so impressed with their commitment to the dogs they breed. I was not looking for a show/breeding dog either (though I did want a smart, athletic dog who had the potential to do performance activities). What was VERY important to me was finding a breeder that I really trusted, and whom I knew would be there for me when I needed help, advice or just to share a cute story!

And while I would NEVER have bought a dog if I had any intention other than to keep him for his entire life, things happen. People get in car crashes, have debilitating illnesses, etc. It means so much to me that the GOOD breeders not only will, but insist on taking a dog back if the new owners can't keep them for some reason. But THAT'S not without it's costs either. I know that my breeder had to fly to pick up and bring home an older puppy whose new owners found they couldn't keep him. Not only did they have the travel costs, but then had to keep him with them for a while to evaluate where he was in his training/socialization before they could begin looking for a new home for him. THAT takes time, effort and money. Those of us who buy puppies from these conscientious breeders end up paying a tiny bit of THOSE costs too. But as far as I'm concerned, it is well worth it.

Leaving all the puppy mills and BYB's aside, how often have we read here that someone's "reputable" breeder has been very helpful BEFORE the person bought the puppy, but has been completely unwilling to communicate after the puppy was off their hands. To me, the relationship between puppy owner and breeder that Kathy is talking about is priceless!


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## krandall

paisley said:


> So would you say that the Havanese breed is more the "designer" breed dujour?


Havanese are, unfortunately, becoming very popular because of their great pet qualities. They have also found their way into puppy mills, which means that they have found their way into pet stores. You, yourself, couldn't resist that adorable ball of fluff.:biggrin1: Popularity has been a bad thing for many breeds. Look at the health problems in Goldens!

But "designer dogs" means something very specific. "designer" dogs are NOT purebreds, but are made by crossing two breeds together. They may be cute, but essentially, people are paying for mutts. Havanese are definitely NOT "designer" dogs. They are purebred dogs recognized by sanctioning bodies all around the world.


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## paisley

Ahh, after I wrote "designer" and pressed send I realized I had probably picked the wrong descriptor for what I was thinking. I know that the breed is not "cross" bred, what I was trying to convey was maybe a new "couture" or "must have" breed. I saw on Animal Planet where the Havanese is now in the top 5 most desired dogs for city living due to their great people instincts, size and not needing a heavy dose of exercise walks each day like a bigger dog. Just a popularity thing is what I was trying to express.


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## galaxie

They're not really that much more expensive than other breeds. My dad raised dobermans when I was a kid - back then a dobe from champion bloodlines ran $800-$1000, there were fewer expenses as a breeder because there were not so many health tests, etc. Veterinary costs, travel costs, show fees, etc. have gone up a lot over the last 15 or so years. Now a dobe from champion bloodlines runs around the same as a Hav.


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## Kathy

iluvhavs said:


> I just paid $62,000 for my new E-Coupe. That I consider a luxury item. I bought my dogs as family companions, not status symbols. My only consideration was to get healthy, happy dogs.
> 
> I guess kathy answered my question re: price. The more someone pays, the more exclusive they percieve that item to be. Doesn't make that item any better than the less expensive one, just more expensive. I didn't realize people who wanted to pay more for their dogs provided better families. That must mean that my first hav ($2000) is loved more then my second hav ($1000).


You obviously misunderstood my post. Dogs should NOT be a status symbol. With me, you get what you paid for. With other breeders, you won't.


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## LoudRam

iluvhavs said:


> Especially when you get to a breed that until recently most folks hadn't heard of.


That's so true. When I'm walking Ruffles the neighbors on the street ask what breed is she? When I tell them she's a Havanese their reply is usually "a what?" and "never heard of them".


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## clare

Without fail every time I go out with Dizzie I am asked what breed is he?and I get "oh isn't he cute, how adorable" etc.most people have never heard of a Havanese,and they ask for the details of my breeder.So as you can see Havs are very unusual in Britain,with only about 6 recommended breeders in the country.But unfortunately there are many scam adverts for Havs on the internet at knock down prices,when you click on the icon to see the advertisers past adverts you will find that they have probably tried to sell every popular breed there ever has been.It is so sad for both the dear dogs and for the gullible people just trying to buy a dear family pet.So if you really want a Havanese you have to put a fair amount of research in and expect to wait awhile before you get lucky,it is not easy especially if you have not had a dog before and don't know how to go about it.
Change of subject I find Dizzie likes a fair amount of exercise each day, yes he can go without but we have a garden for him to play in and now he has his naughty little sister who keeps him on his toes!But I would have thought it hard to keep any dog in an apartment,certainly Dizzie seems to require more exercise than our Tibetan Terriers did!


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## krandall

iluvhavs said:


> I just paid $62,000 for my new E-Coupe. That I consider a luxury item. I bought my dogs as family companions, not status symbols. My only consideration was to get healthy, happy dogs.
> 
> I guess kathy answered my question re: price. The more someone pays, the more exclusive they percieve that item to be. Doesn't make that item any better than the less expensive one, just more expensive. I didn't realize people who wanted to pay more for their dogs provided better families. That must mean that my first hav ($2000) is loved more then my second hav ($1000).


I have NO idea how you got that out of Kathy's post. But you clearly have a set opinion, and you are welcome to it.


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## hav2

iluvhavs said:


> I just paid $62,000 for my new E-Coupe. That I consider a luxury item. I bought my dogs as family companions, not status symbols. My only consideration was to get healthy, happy dogs.
> 
> I guess kathy answered my question re: price. The more someone pays, the more exclusive they percieve that item to be. Doesn't make that item any better than the less expensive one, just more expensive. I didn't realize people who wanted to pay more for their dogs provided better families. That must mean that my first hav ($2000) is loved more then my second hav ($1000).


That's ridiculous. I don't think that's what Kathy meant at all.


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## iluvhavs

Kathy said:


> _Another reason breeders might charge what some of you obviously consider to be to high is to weed out homes that might not be the best for a puppy. I am not saying this to insult any of you, but I have heard other breeders say this helps them when it is time to place puppies._
> [\QUOTE]
> 
> Kathy's post indicated she had heard from others that a better home could be had by charging an amount of money that restricted customers. I thought that was elitist reasoning. That's all. She did say "other breeders say that". So I'm not calling her an elitist, rather saying that it would explain the higher prices. I don't think $3000 is high for an exceptional dog with champion parents, but the majority of Hav's that are owned today are owned by people who aren't involved in showing, and only want a healthy, family pet. If they pay a lower price for that dog, that does not necessarily make the dog any less valuable to them or any less healthy and sound.. That's my point! A lot of the breeders on this site seem to fault posters who have paid less then they charge for their dogs, or buy them from breeders that aren't in their "circle". My feelings only, as I read the posts.
> 
> I'm sure she is a great breeder and does feel, as she says, that her dogs are worth the money and many others are not. Looking at her website and her dogs, I'm sure that's true, if you are buying a dog to breed or show.
> 
> I do have a strong opinion about this. My point, from the beginning, as been that the amount of money you pay for a dog does not quarantee the health of that dog. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.


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## hav2

I do not fault anyone who has paid less for their Hav, and I did not buy from a breeder in "their circle" and I don't feel like anyone here has faulted me for that either. I can see your point about higher prices=better home, and that not necessarily being true.


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## hav2

Fergus and Izzy are worth their weight in gold......so as far as I can see, I got a good deal


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## Brady's mom

I haven't read through this entire thread, but it seems as though many people are losing sight of what is important. I have 3 wonderful havanese. Brady came from a wonderful breeder who I trust completely and paid $2000 for him. Cassie and Dugan are rescues from HRI. They are all wonderful dogs, but I certainly would have never got a dog from a backyard breeder or a puppy mill. What people seem to be forgetting is that it is not just about your puppy that you bring home, but all the other dogs that you are leaving behind and supporting by purchasing your dog from where you do. I don't care how much you pay for your dog. Just make sure that your breeder treats them like family, cares for them medically, allows them to be pets and breeds for the right reasons. My breeder shows her dogs and tries to better the breed. I can call her anytime I need for advice or help, for any of my dogs, not just the one I got from her. She health tests and looks for the right personalities. She breeds only her dogs with great personality traits in addition to having a championship or showing them. And, she loves her dogs! They are a part of her family. THis is the kind of breeder I want to support!

Please keep in mind if you decide to buy from a breeder in another state where you can't visit, find out about them. I have had people tell me that they spoke to the breeder on the phone and she was so nice and then they have the puppy shipped and I show them online how they supported a puppy mill with 150 dogs. They would have never dreamed it from the nice website and the lovely woman on the phone. They may get a healthy puppy (maybe), but think of it's parents and all the other left behind in cold cages stacked on top of each other with feces falling through and no human socialization. 

Again, I don't care what you pay for your dog, just make sure you are getting them from a wonderful place that you have no problem giving your money to. 

One more thing I can say about Brady's breeder is that she probably wins on some litters and loses on others. Brady was a singleton and his mom had to have a c-section. She got very sick a few weeks after her was born and spent a few days in the emergency vet. I can assure you that even with Brady's price tag, she made no money on him. She had his mom spayed afterwards too, so she will never make another dime on his mom. But, she will keep her as a family pet (with many others) until she dies of old age.


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## Matilda

Petland charges an obscene amount of money for their puppies. They had a Havanese for over $2000 there when I went. I had no idea Petland had puppies, because I had never been to one before. I went to look at toys for our new puppy, and there they were.  Poor little things. I think that many people think that an expensive puppy means a quality puppy, but that is false. But, it is a marketing tool that Petland and other puppy mills use very effectively. The breeder we are getting our male from is, IMO, a very reputable breeder, who also happens to charge about $1000 for her dogs. She does the recommended health testing, and they are raised in her home, but she doesn't show. I was looking for a breeder who health tests and doesn't show, and luckily I found her. Price is less important than the health of the dogs, as I think everyone can agree. 

BTW, Tippy's arriving next Saturday and we couldn't be more excited (but a little nervous as well!)!!


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## LilyMyLove

I think if you went out and asked an experienced breeder to find a good dam and sire, health test them, breed them, then take care of the dog throughout the pregnancy, the whelping, the socialization, the feeding, the vet visits and asked them to bill you a la carte for these services including an hourly wage for all of the time put into such a project not to mention the emotional investment you would think that $1500-2500 is quite a bargain. 

I can see why some (good) breeders would be hesitant to home a dog with someone who could not come up with that fee. Those puppies are their beloved dog's offspring. They have birthed them, loved them, socialized them, cuddled them, fed them for a least two months- it's like grandchildren. You would not want to give them up to someone who could not provide good medical care, a nice cozy home, good nutrition, good toys and a happy life for these loved ones. 

Lily is spayed, but if she could have babies, and did, you can be darn sure they would not be put on on the sidewalk in a cardboard box for the just any old Tom, Dick, or Harry. 

That said, I think Pet stores that charge that much for a puppy from a mill are insane. This price was set by people putting their hearts, blood, sweat and tears into this. I think at the end of the day your family pet does not need to have the most beautiful coat, a perfectly pigmented nose, and straight teeth, etc. (Although I do see why good breeders breed for the standard) You can pay 2500 for a pup from health tested parents and still get a dog with some health problems. To me, its not about elitism, or having the most beautiful expensive accessory- its about maximizing your chances of having as happy, healthy family member as possible.


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## galaxie

Matilda said:


> Petland charges an obscene amount of money for their puppies. They had a Havanese for over $2000 there when I went. I had no idea Petland had puppies, because I had never been to one before. I went to look at toys for our new puppy, and there they were.  Poor little things. I think that many people think that an expensive puppy means a quality puppy, but that is false. But, it is a marketing tool that Petland and other puppy mills use very effectively. The breeder we are getting our male from is, IMO, a very reputable breeder, who also happens to charge about $1000 for her dogs. She does the recommended health testing, and they are raised in her home, but she doesn't show. I was looking for a breeder who health tests and doesn't show, and luckily I found her. Price is less important than the health of the dogs, as I think everyone can agree.
> 
> BTW, Tippy's arriving next Saturday and we couldn't be more excited (but a little nervous as well!)!!


Just curious as to why you would specifically look for a breeder that does not show dogs? The purpose of breeding show dogs is to produce litters that adhere closely to the breed standard, in addition to being health tested.


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## LilyMyLove

IM(not so humble)O, it's not exactly fair to accuse someone of elitism while, in the same post, publishing the sticker price of the 60,000+ automobile you just purchased in the middle of a depression.


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## iluvhavs

I'm supporting the economy. 

PS It's not a depression, although it is depressing.....


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## iluvhavs

Actually, the point I made about the car was that I have the money........I just don't think a havanese needs to be $2000 or more to be a healthy dog from a good breeder. 

And BTW what makes you think $1000 is not a lot of money for a dog??? I usually don't tell people what mine cost because they say, "Oh I hear they are very expensive! Like over $500 or so right? " Ah, yeah...right.


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## hav2

Might as well be a depression. I think you may have ruffled some feathers with the statement about your car. It came off as bragging and everyone can't afford to go out and throw that kind of money at luxury items right now.


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## iluvhavs

jenn, I think _my_ feathers were a little ruffled when I made the statement. It happens.

Spending that kind of money on a car is akin to spending $2000+ on the family dog, though. Especially when the local animal shelters are teaming with puppies.

I do apologize if I have personally offended anyone here. My posts can come off very strong at times but I do enjoy the debate.


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## Matilda

My husband is a physician (specialist) and he drives a 2004 (paid off!) Jetta, lol. We're not really in to the status symbols here. It gets him from A to B, and since it's a diesel it gets great mileage, and we own it outright, so why buy anything new?



galaxie said:


> Just curious as to why you would specifically look for a breeder that does not show dogs? The purpose of breeding show dogs is to produce litters that adhere closely to the breed standard, in addition to being health tested.


I don't want to ruffle any feathers, so I'll just say it is a personal choice, and that is all.


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## hav2

iluvhavs said:


> jenn, I think _my_ feathers were a little ruffled when I made the statement. It happens.
> 
> Spending that kind of money on a car is akin to spending $2000+ on the family dog, though. Especially when the local animal shelters are teaming with puppies.
> 
> I do apologize if I have personally offended anyone here. My posts can come off very strong at times but I do enjoy the debate.


You are right about the shelters. Many of those pups are from people who have lost their homes in these tough economic times and I feel for them. I have had adopted animals in the past before I had children and this time around I wanted to pick a breed that got along with my kids. At least when you do buy a puppy you can control where it comes from and you can educate yourself about that breed. I wanted to meet our pups parents and make sure they were well socialized before I brought them home with young children. Most of the time you can't guarantee that with a shelter dog.


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## LilyMyLove

I say if you have the money, and you are not living on credit and morgaged to the hilt, spend it! Live it up sister! Stimulate growth and jobs!! Spread the love. 

But I think its gauche to post the price of your luxury purchases online when no one has asked. A lot of people have money, they don't talk about it. 
And it also doesn't give you a lot of latitude to call someone else elitist, that was my point. I didn't feel that was warranted.


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## krandall

LilyMyLove said:


> That said, I think Pet stores that charge that much for a puppy from a mill are insane. This price was set by people putting their hearts, blood, sweat and tears into this.


I think that pet stores KNOW what good quality, well bred Havs go for and purposely price their mill puppies there as one more way to dupe customers into believing that the dog is NOT from a mill, but from a consciencious breeder. I think that's exactly what Chrissy said happened with her and Gizmo. She thought Gizmo MUST come from a good breeder because of the price she paid for her.


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## galaxie

hav2 said:


> Might as well be a depression. I think you may have ruffled some feathers with the statement about your car. It came off as bragging and everyone can't afford to go out and throw that kind of money at luxury items *right now.*


Or ever.

(emphasis mine)


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## ama0722

I will openly say my "cheaper hav" came with a lot of baggage (thank goodness none of it health related!) and I still love her just as much (some days more!) But I think regardless of where you go or what price you pay, you have to find what is comfortable for you. I would also be very leary of a breeder that didn't ask you as many questions as you ask them. If they are truly in it for the benefit of the breed then they want to make the breed better not just produce puppies to sell. They show to get an opinion on their possible breeding stock, they educate themselves, they health test, and they invest time and money into the breed. Unfortunately with that comes a cost and it trickles down to us pet owners as well. I will say with a little more money I got a lot more havanese in personality and in structure but the best part is I got a clean slate (well after meeting his family I got exactly what I was looking for!)

I also feel if you don't have the funds, then why not rescue? This way you aren't paying a pet store or backyard breeder money to continue producing puppies and you are saving one dog.


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## LilyMyLove

krandall said:


> I think that pet stores KNOW what good quality, well bred Havs go for and purposely price their mill puppies there as one more way to dupe customers into believing that the dog is NOT from a mill, but from a consciencious breeder. I think that's exactly what Chrissy said happened with her and Gizmo. She thought Gizmo MUST come from a good breeder because of the price she paid for her.


Exactly-and because it creates a much higher profit margin for them to boot!


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## krandall

LilyMyLove said:


> Exactly-and because it creates a much higher profit margin for them to boot!


That too!<g>


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## Thumper

Interesting thread,

I don't tell people how much I paid for Gucci, I'd get the jaw drop look because most people think that even an expensive dog is around $500..and while I respect those who adopt from shelters, I was pretty focused on the hypo allergenic/low dander aspects of the breed, along with the other characteristics which I thought would suit our lifestyle and family... The last thing I wanted was a dog that I'd be allergic to and have to rehome...

I do love my dog and spend money on her all the time. We just took her out of the country and I was a little surprised at the cost of that, all of the shots and certificates and rabies titer from Kansas city and State Department of Agriculture stamped certificate (had to drive to Richmond for that one), flights, travel bag..stroller.. and on and on...so no matter what you pay up front, the bills keep on rolling it, a dog is a long term financial commitment, even the healthy ones.

I wonder how much I've spent over the last 3 years on her, i guess that would be her real total 'cost'..


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## Wildflower

I think my comment that Holly came from a BYB is probably incorrect. A hobby breeder maybe? She is from a "one time only" litter for my friend's dog.

My uncle is emailing me some more information on both of the breeders he has contacted (I asked him just out of curiosity about the seemingly higher price that others have indicated these breeders are asking). Will post it when I get it, if anybody is interested. 

Never really thought about prices being too high before... I've always thought if you are comfortable and happy with the price you pay, then that's all that matters.

Years ago, I took my schnauzer to the groomer and outside in a pen in the shade were some _adorable_ puppies (all puppies are!). I asked my groomer if they were hers and she said she was puppy-sitting them for a couple of days for a friend who had a family emergency. They were bulldog puppies and the price tags were $2800-$3000. I was so shocked when I heard *that* price!


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## LilyMyLove

Bulldogs are always expensive they have such big heads, they have to be delivered via C section. Plus I think the females need to be inseminated due to the fact that their bodies are shaped to awkwardly to make sex feasable. Im sure someone ese can explain this in more accurate and technical terms.


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## LilyMyLove

Thumperlove said:


> Interesting thread,
> 
> I don't tell people how much I paid for Gucci, I'd get the jaw drop look because most people think that even an expensive dog is around $500..and while I respect those who adopt from shelters, I was pretty focused on the hypo allergenic/low dander aspects of the breed, along with the other characteristics which I thought would suit our lifestyle and family... The last thing I wanted was a dog that I'd be allergic to and have to rehome...
> 
> I do love my dog and spend money on her all the time. We just took her out of the country and I was a little surprised at the cost of that, all of the shots and certificates and rabies titer from Kansas city and State Department of Agriculture stamped certificate (had to drive to Richmond for that one), flights, travel bag..stroller.. and on and on...so no matter what you pay up front, the bills keep on rolling it, a dog is a long term financial commitment, even the healthy ones.
> 
> I wonder how much I've spent over the last 3 years on her, i guess that would be her real total 'cost'..


When people ask me how much she cost just to ask, and are not really interested in purchasing one, I just say she was a gift. If they press me I ask if they are from the IRS or something. .

That must have been so fun to travel internationally with your dog, do you mind me asking where you went?

I agree about the real total cost, it really does add up! I don't have any children so Lily is my main expense, I can't imagine how much a child would cost if I spend this much on a dog! At least I don't need to send her to college

Now I'm going to be cheesy: I think if we can all agree on one thing, it's that these dogs give back to our lives immeasurably. So whether in the past we paid $0 (the Havanese fairy!) to $2500 they are really priceless.

Lily was $1500. Her breeder did health testing, had champion parents, showed her dogs, socialized her dogs well but was not the most experienced breeder around. I got a good feeling about her and she questioned me extensively- I felt good it. I wanted to find someone that I could drive to and see their set up, and I visited Lily 3 times before I brought her home, I was on a waiting list before she was even a twinkle in her mother's eye. I communicated with her constantly getting emails, pictures, updates before she was even born. We talked frequently after I took Lily home.

I haven't heard from her lately, and don't know that I would get another dog from her, but I feel like I got a bargain. Everyday I look at Lily and feel so blessed like I won the lottery this dog is just so sweet and funny and my best friend. I feel silly saying so but I have never known a love like this, I would do anything for this dog. As Im sure all of you would for yours, no matter how much you paid for them.


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## Thumper

LilyMyLove said:


> When people ask me how much she cost just to ask, and are not really interested in purchasing one, I just say she was a gift. If they press me I ask if they are from the IRS or something. .
> 
> That must have been so fun to travel internationally with your dog, do you mind me asking where you went?
> 
> I agree about the real total cost, it really does add up! I don't have any children so Lily is my main expense, I can't imagine how much a child would cost if I spend this much on a dog! At least I don't need to send her to college
> 
> Now I'm going to be cheesy: I think if we can all agree on one thing, it's that these dogs give back to our lives immeasurably. So whether in the past we paid $0 (the Havanese fairy!) to $2500 they are really priceless.
> 
> Lily was $1500. Her breeder did health testing, had champion parents, showed her dogs, socialized her dogs well but was not the most experienced breeder around. I got a good feeling about her and she questioned me extensively- I felt good it. I wanted to find someone that I could drive to and see their set up, and I visited Lily 3 times before I brought her home, I was on a waiting list before she was even a twinkle in her mother's eye. I communicated with her constantly getting emails, pictures, updates before she was even born. We talked frequently after I took Lily home.
> 
> I haven't heard from her lately, and don't know that I would get another dog from her, but I feel like I got a bargain. Everyday I look at Lily and feel so blessed like I won the lottery this dog is just so sweet and funny and my best friend. I feel silly saying so but I have never known a love like this, I would do anything for this dog. As Im sure all of you would for yours, no matter how much you paid for them.


We just got back from Turks and Caicos, rented a house on the beach with the kids (7 of them plus a friend) and a dog, so 11 of us (counting Gucci)

It took about 6 months to get everything done for her because of the rounds of vaccinations she needed. There is more work to do if you go to a country that doesn't have rabies, they scanned her micro chip to make sure she matched the paperwork, it was quite thorough and they are quite serious about keeping rabies off the island, I hear Hawaii is pretty much the same and if you don't do the paperwork, they can quarantine for 6 months! :jaw:

But this topic, its so hard for me to put a price tag on her and when I think about what I've paid for her, I have to think about every penny I spent! lol and will continue to spend as long as she is by my side, its a worthy investment 

And my personal attitude towards money? Money is replaceable, people and living beings...dogs, well, they aren't. My daughter got in a car wreck a few months ago, totalled her car, but that's okay...she walked away from it. We can replace the car, but not the person....and I feel the same way about Gucci, she's a part of the family, and always will be, money comes and goes...

Kara


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## iluvhavs

Well. I'm glad my gauche post brought about the desired effect of pushing some buttons to make my point regarding the pricing of these dogs. Really, the price people pay for the things in their life that add joy is none of the business of others. But it does make my point, perfectly*. Is my car, because I paid a higher amount of money, any better then those Jettas or Civics (or my 2005 minivan)? No.*

I have a question re: "hobby breeders" now that it's been brought up. I thought that unless you are a kennel, breeeding for profit, you _are_ a hobby breeder? Wouldn't that be a good thing. Isn't a hobby breeder one who _"follows a breeding plan to preserve and protect each breed; produces a limited number of litters each year; breeds only when a litter will enhance the breed and the breeding program; raises the puppies with plenty of environmental stimulation and human contact; has a contract that protects breeder, puppy, and buyer; raises dog in the house or runs a small, clean kennel; screens breeding stock to eliminate hereditary defects; works with a breed club or kennel club to promote and protect the breed; and cares that each and every puppy is placed in the best home possible."_


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## trueblue

One thing I've learned is that price certainly isn't a measure of quality. It pays to do your research to find a reputable breeder that puts the necessary work into their breeding program (health testing, showing, etc.), and even with all that, proper socialization is a must. My first hav was from a byb, borderline puppy mill breeder, and that ended up being a nightmare. She's doing great in her née home, but if the breeder had taken the time to evaluate puppy personalities, she could have told us right off the bat that our home wasn't a good match for the puppy I selected...when she was 4 days old! I think back on the advice I got on this forum at the time, and I could kick myself for not listening. Cricket was twice the price of Santos, and with him, I have a happy, healthy hav that is a perfect fit for my family. Santos was $1200...worth every single penny. If I ever decide to add another, I think I'll get on a waiting list with one of the forum breeders...I KNOW how much time and effort they put into raising these awesome little dogs, and feel like there's no way I could go wrong.

Now, on the car issue, I'm jealous. My minivan (even though i tell myself that the saints gear makes it a cool car) makes me feel so soccer-momish, and yes...my kids play soccer, but I am so not a soccer mom


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## Thumper

iluvhavs said:


> Well. I'm glad my gauche post brought about the desired effect of pushing some buttons to make my point regarding the pricing of these dogs. Really, the price people pay for the things in their life that add joy is none of the business of others. But it does make my point, perfectly*. Is my car, because I paid a higher amount of money, any better then those Jettas or Civics (or my 2005 minivan)? No.*
> 
> I have a question re: "hobby breeders" now that it's been brought up. I thought that unless you are a kennel, breeeding for profit, you _are_ a hobby breeder? Wouldn't that be a good thing. Isn't a hobby breeder one who _"follows a breeding plan to preserve and protect each breed; produces a limited number of litters each year; breeds only when a litter will enhance the breed and the breeding program; raises the puppies with plenty of environmental stimulation and human contact; has a contract that protects breeder, puppy, and buyer; raises dog in the house or runs a small, clean kennel; screens breeding stock to eliminate hereditary defects; works with a breed club or kennel club to promote and protect the breed; and cares that each and every puppy is placed in the best home possible."_


I totally understand what you are saying and no, if you do spend $2000 on a hav, it doesn't guarantee perfect health, I know someone that paid $2500 for one and it has some congenital problems, but they wouldn't trade their dog for any amount of money, although..probably statistically, the chance would decrease, assuming that breeders who charge more do more health testing, but not all breeders are as conscientious as the ones here and others are. Its like anything, some people have more passion than others, some are in it for the profit, some for the breed...so much grey area in all of this.

And even a perfect dog can have an offspring with issues, it happens.

I have a son with a bilateral cleft lip and palate, I don't have one...there are no guarantees in life, and I couldn't agree more with that~~


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## DAJsMom

Both Dusty and Indie came from reputable show breeders and from champion, health-tested parents. Indie was co-owned as a show prospect and we got her from the co-owner (Dusty's breeder), not her breeder. 
As I've posted in a different thread, Indie is recovering from a major illness. Dusty's breeder, and the one who gave Indie to us, has been very helpful and supportive through this, and has even offered to help with vet bills (which in two days totalled substantially more than what we paid for Dusty). This for a dog she did not breed, and for an illness of unknown cause--not necessarily congenital. 
More important than the money spent to buy our havs is the relationship we have with their breeders (which takes research), and the commitment we're making to care well for our dogs throughout their lives, which may well become a bigger financial commitment than the one we made to buy the dog in the first place. 
Most important may be the research we put in before our purchase, to avoid supporting puppy mills, encourage the health of the breed, encourage and support rescue (we've fostered two great dogs for HRI), and to educate ourselves about what it's going to take in time, effort, and money, to not just bring a puppy home, but care for our pets long-term.


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## LilyMyLove

iluvhavs said:


> Well. I'm glad my gauche post brought about the _desired effect of pushing some buttons_ to make my point regarding the pricing of these dogs. Really, the price people pay for the things in their life that add joy is none of the business of others. But it does make my point, perfectly*. Is my car, because I paid a higher amount of money, any better then those Jettas or Civics (or my 2005 minivan)? No.*


Please stop justifying bragging about your car. Just admit it was in bad taste already and move on. If the price you pay is none of the business of others, as you say, why post it?

And yes, your car *is* better because you paid more for it. Otherwise there would be no market for luxury automobiles. It has a nicer interior, a smoother ride, possibly better safety measures, a nicer sound system, GPS and a faster engine amongst other possible upgrades. But does a more expensive car make you a better person? No.

A car is a material possession and a means of getting from one place to another. A dog is a living, breathing thing with a soul. Its comparing apples to oranges. Get off it already.:focus:


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## iluvhavs

Meghan, I don't think I have anything to "admit" here. I don't believe the post was in bad taste. You don't like the post, that's fine. You had your say, I had my say.

As I said before; we have to agree to disagree. I will take your advice and move on, though.


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## Luciledodd

You all are killing me today. I got my electric bill and it was $780. That is more than I paid for Rosie. That was for last month and so the next one will probably be higher. It is usually around $200. Are any of you other having the same types of bills? At this rate, I couldn't retire if I wanted to. Then I went to the internet and saw where Vets were in trouble because people are surrending their dogs because of lost wages and no longer have the money to support kids and dogs. They are turning them into the shelters and not having them taken to the Vet either for illness. And we are arguing about how much some of us paid for our cars--lets move on.


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## krandall

Luciledodd said:


> You all are killing me today. I got my electric bill and it was $780. That is more than I paid for Rosie. That was for last month and so the next one will probably be higher. It is usually around $200. Are any of you other having the same types of bills? At this rate, I couldn't retire if I wanted to. Then I went to the internet and saw where Vets were in trouble because people are surrending their dogs because of lost wages and no longer have the money to support kids and dogs. They are turning them into the shelters and not having them taken to the Vet either for illness. And we are arguing about how much some of us paid for our cars--lets move on.


Lucile, our electric bill was more than double what it was for the same period last year too. My husband almost had a stroke when the bill came in!


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## hav2

I'm scared to open my electric bill, my air conditioning hasn't shut off for a month!


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## Luciledodd

I apolize for spouting off. I have been sick at home for a week and had to go into the office this morning for a few hours. It's hot, the employees are fussing, and I just feel so tired. If we had to stop working and live off of SS, we couldn't make it with the utility bills that we are having now. I noticed that my neighbor across the street hung up a clothes line this past weekend. God, I hope we don't have to go back to that. I remember hanging out diapers 49 years ago and they would freeze on the line. We have had three rate increases in electric this summer. I noticed the third one announced in the sunday paper. We have a lower cost of living in the rural south than a lot of you do in the big cities. I don't know how people manage with the high rents and utilities.  The salaries here are the same as Nashville for engineers, so just how do employees manage in those areas? Sorry, I hope to feel better soon and get out of this funk.
Lucile


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## LilyMyLove

^I am sorry too for being argumentative and bitchy. I can't kick this lyme disease for some reason the antibiotic didn't work and I'm getting stir crazy from being so sick and tired and in the house so much, its making me ornery. :frusty:

I have a dog walker coming for Lily a few times a day, then I manage to take her to the dog park at night, maybe I should have someone come walk me.  ound:

Hopefully it will cool down soon, for everyones sake. I love indian summer in New England.


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## Luciledodd

We used to take the month of October and go to the New England states. I love it there. We stayed on the old roads--no interstates and wandered through the villages. Great food everywhere, wonderful people, friendly. (They liked to talk with us because of our southern accents.) Last year we only got as far as Virginia. But the Shenandoah Valley is really pretty also. I would move up there except for the winters. There is a little inn in Conn somewhere, we always have to find it again--to die for. I hope to make the trip once more before I die. right now I am trying to get to the headwaters of the Mississippi. We nearly made it three years ago and Husband had a heart attack along the way and so we didn't make it all the way. Road trips, traveling through all the little towns, stopping and talking with the people, October Fests at all the little churches. I long for this summer to be gone and cool off. I am going to Nashville the 25 & 26 for a business trip. I am going to take Rosie and if she pukes all the way, so be it. It is time that she learns to travel.


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## krandall

Luciledodd said:


> We used to take the month of October and go to the New England states. I love it there. We stayed on the old roads--no interstates and wandered through the villages. Great food everywhere, wonderful people, friendly. (They liked to talk with us because of our southern accents.) Last year we only got as far as Virginia. But the Shenandoah Valley is really pretty also. I would move up there except for the winters. There is a little inn in Conn somewhere, we always have to find it again--to die for. I hope to make the trip once more before I die. right now I am trying to get to the headwaters of the Mississippi. We nearly made it three years ago and Husband had a heart attack along the way and so we didn't make it all the way. Road trips, traveling through all the little towns, stopping and talking with the people, October Fests at all the little churches. I long for this summer to be gone and cool off. I am going to Nashville the 25 & 26 for a business trip. I am going to take Rosie and if she pukes all the way, so be it. It is time that she learns to travel.


I'd move down south, except for the summers!:laugh:

Seriously, that's my favorite kind of travel too, and fall is the most beautiful time to do it. We just traded in our "family" camper for a "grown-up" one (no bunks, lovely sitting room, big bedroom!!!) that we pick up on Thursday. We have one more year of a child in high school, then we plan to do LOTS of "fall meandering".


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## clare

New England in the autumn is the best,DH and I love it!


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## Rita Nelson

As a transplanted Southerner to NH, I must say I agree with y'all - autumn in NE is beautiful. My problem is I can't enjoy it for dreading the LONG, LONG, LONG, LONG winter ahead. I don't mind the cold, but I detest snow. I truly miss the summers of the south. To me, this summer has been wonderful, humidity and all. My children were raised here, the grandchildren are here, so here we'll stay. Besides, I don't think Tucker would fare well in the South. He DID NOT like the hot, humid days we had here.


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## krandall

clare said:


> New England in the autumn is the best,DH and I love it!


Let us know if you come! We have a large group of Hav owners/ (current) Forum members here, and I'm sure we could scare up at least a few for a visit while you were in the area!


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## Luciledodd

I will do that. But I am still wanting to see the headwaters of the Mississippi and maybe the next state farther west. Just depends on our business this year as to when we can start our road trip.


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## clare

krandall said:


> Let us know if you come! We have a large group of Hav owners/ (current) Forum members here, and I'm sure we could scare up at least a few for a visit while you were in the area!


Oh my we would love that, but unfortunately we will not be able to holiday this autumn.If only it wasn't so far away and we could bring our furbabies.


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## Becky Chittenden

I feel I must get into this discussion. I had all my puppies promised (except one I was keeping). I had 4 puppies. The first back out had a medical problem and is on my list for the next litter (wants a female). Fortunately, another great home came along and she is in a home with 2 girls 5th and 7th grades and a 6 year old Havanese. The second only wanted a black irish pied male and he's the one I can't part with. The third lost patience and bought another, I didn't ask where. I still have the three boys. I could sell them if I didn't care about the homes they went to. I won't advertize in the local paper. A few weeks back there was an ad every weekend. These Havanese had a "champion pedigree". The first week they were asking $1000, the next $500 and the final ad $350. My dogs are worth too much to me to do the keep lowering the price thing and if no one buys a puppy I'm willing to place in the right home, so be it; the dog can live here, well loved, throughout his/her life.
Becky


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## Elaine

I came on the forum after not being here for 4 months and saw this thread and read parts of it. I do have to say that several of you make very good points and I have to say that I sell all of my pets for $1,600 on a spay/neuter contract. Now 11 years ago I paid $1,800 for my first havanese and $2,000 for the next 3. One of them wound up with catarats at 21 months and very bad CD, the breeder was wonderful and we worked something out. You have to realize that I showed all 4 of them myself and put a Champion title on each of them. I also only used the male 2 times and neutered him and he went to a new home because even though he was a Champion did not mean he should be bred and the trial breedings proved it. I have purchase several dogs over the years that I have put a Champion title on and never bred and others that were bred a couple of times and went to new homes. I have finished 14 dogs in the Bred By class besides and I am very proud of that fact. One of my vets came over today to visit and see my set up for the dogs and had so much fun and loved it. If you want to know about breeders making money when they sell their puppies for these prices, NO!!!!!!! My husband works to support my hobby and show habit plus our other bills and it gets harder every day to keep up with, but I want to make sure my puppies when I so have them are raised to be loved and social. I pay at least $300.00 for food every 2 to 3 months, if I have to have a c-section it is around $1,600 plus my last one the mom opened her incision up and that was another $600 to close her back up plus the antibiotics to make sure she was fine. If you look at the cost of stud dogs, which even though I do have males I am only breeding to improve my lines and the quality of my dogs so I do not have them here just to keep reproducing. All of my dogs have a long list of health tests that are done on them before I will even consider using them in a breeding program and yet as others have said things do crop up as far as health issues. If I can't find a home for a puppy they will stay here until I do find the right home, no matter how long it takes. I have expensive astro turf in my yard so that the dogs have a clean environment to keep them a healthy as possible along with a huge amoumt of childrens play structures. I know how much our Havanese sound like they are expensive but I know a breeder of Westies that sells hers for $3,500 and doesn't worry about any health testing and I know of other breeds that cost equal to or even more than our puppies. I love this breed and hope I never have to quit breeding because I love to see what I can produce, as far as quality, and I enjoy how much their owners love each and every one of them. Thank you for this thread and please remember that a bargain is not always a bargain and if a website shows they always have lots of puppies for sale, run the other way unless you check OFA and they have put our the money to care enough to health test and post it there.


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## Luciledodd

Elaine your story is pretty much what I expected. I did not imagine that breeding and showing dogs would ever pay the bills. You have to be doing it for the love of the dogs. I wish that I was near you when you have your next litter. I expect though that I will never get another puppy. I hope that Rosie and I make it to the "nursing home" but would hate to leave a little one behind. I am thinking of getting an older dog later though. Actually I am thinking I may foster some. It would keep Rosie with a companion and me young at heart.


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## marjrc

Thank you, Becky and Elaine, for your great posts and insight! I appreciate the info you shared with us. Very important to keep all those things in mind.


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## Lunastar

As someone brand spanking new to showing I can tell you it is expensive. First you have to have the right clothes. Then there are the hotels, since I do not yet have an RV. Plus entry fees. Not to mention all the shampoo and conditioner you go through just to find the right combination for your particular dog's coat, No two are the same by the way(we are still working on this one). Don't forget the grooming table, showleads, blowdryer. Not counting any of that I can tell you I have entered one pup in three shows $390 not including any of the grooming supplies, food or gas. That $390 is just the hotels and entry fees. Do we have any points? No. So speaking as a beginner I would venture to say most reputable breeders who show, finish and health test do not actually make a profit. I know I am showing because I love my dogs, whether I ever breed who knows. Guess that will depend on if I can finish them and they pass all the health testing and have the qualities that I want to see passed on to enhance this wonderful breed. I have two that are spayed. Intially bought for show but neither had the right qualities. No big deal, I love them and would never dream of trading them for anything. I actually paid more for them than the show pups I have now. Both times I was paying the "going" rate for my pups. 

Any one want to start a shampoo/conditioner trade system? I hate throwing it all out.


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## galaxie

Phew, Elaine! Great post, but my eyes are bleeding. Paragraphs? <3


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