# How far back can you trace your Hav's lineage?



## Divaskychick (May 18, 2011)

I read recently that all the Havanese in the US come from eleven dogs that made it out of Cuba during the revolution. 

When did the AKC recognize the Havanese as a breed and how did anyone know they had a pure bred dog to start off with, unless they could trace their dog to one of the eleven? And how do we know those eleven were pure bred Havs? And I can see there are Havs in Europe - where did they come from and aren't any of their progeny in the US? 

Since my pup comes with papers, presumably I will be able to trace her family back to when the AKC started issuing papers. Is there anyplace I can actually see the whole family tree?

LOL these are things I think about when I can't go to sleep...


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## Pattie (Jun 25, 2008)

This is a fun topic.

First, let me recommend a very good book for the history of Havanese, written by the lady who started Havanese in the US, Dorothy Goodale. Called "Havanese, A Complete and Reliable Handbook." Another good book is written by Zoila Portuondo of Cuba, that relates to Havanese History.

As Dorothy wrote about the origins of the Havanese, they probably originated in the Mediterranean area and were found in France, Italy and Spain hundreds of years ago. They were one of the five Bichon types of dogs, were originally white. Some historical writers of dogs in general, believed that the Havanese descended from the Maltese Another writer believed the Havanese traveled to Cuba during the Spanish empire. Some Cubans believe that the dog came to Cuba by way of Italian seamen and they were given as gifts to the wealthy Cuban aristrocracy. 

Dorothy Goodale says that the first Havanese on record in the US were smuggled out of Cuba by their families who were fleeing the Revolutioin. She bought dogs from 2 of those families, the Perez and Fantasio families. She lists the ancestor dogs in her book. These dogs can also be found in the Havanese Gallery and the ancestors of your dog can be discovered there. I have gone all the way back to the original dogs for my dogs' pedigrees and I use a database to keep all of that information together with photos of the ancestors.

Dorothy started a Havanese registry in 1974. At some point she and other Havanese owners formed a club and later, they elected to go with AKC, rather than the other registries.

Havanese were recognized as a breed by AKC in 1996.

Many of the Havanese in Europe came from the American originals.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Pattie said:


> This is a fun topic.
> 
> First, let me recommend a very good book for the history of Havanese, written by the lady who started Havanese in the US, Dorothy Goodale. Called "Havanese, A Complete and Reliable Handbook." Another good book is written by Zoila Portuondo of Cuba, that relates to Havanese History.
> 
> ...


 This is a bit of the topic. I recently looked up Havanese Maltese mix breed. I looked it up because I keep thinking my Maddie looks like a Maltese with Havanese coloring . Maddie is only 8 lbs and small . I was thinking I would see really cute dogs. What I saw was dogs with underbids and some other teeth problems. the heads looked odd to me too.I don't know why I'm writing this I just found it interesting. Maybe the ones I saw were really not pure Maltese Havanese mix. 
Pattie in your spar time ound: I think you could be a writer!


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## CacheHavs (Aug 2, 2007)

Here is a web site that a lot of us use to look up pedigrees, http://www.havanesegallery.hu/index_en.php

Most all of my dogs came from Europe, at least the ones that I didn't breed myself


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## ruthann (Jan 26, 2007)

Annabelle is 1/2 American breeding going back seven generations to Mrs. Goodale's Havana"s Doll House Breeding of Silver Tiger and Rags Girl. The other half is Hungarian Massivus breeding which I have only three generations back. I can find pictures of most of her American ancestors in Havanese books we currently use as reference. I have found pictures of some of her Massivus heritage on line. One day, I am going to put her pedigree with pictures together for myself to enjoy. She is one of the special joys of my life.


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## Pattie (Jun 25, 2008)

Ruthann,

I think you can print out using Havanese Gallery a pedigree of your Annabelle with pictures. I know that at least some of the Massivus dogs, are registered on that site. Heather gave you the link to the Gallery in her post.


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## Divaskychick (May 18, 2011)

Wow, that gallery is amazing, thank you! Soleil's oldest ancestors on record were all Cuban and both her parents came from Rag Doll with Cuban Trader. 

I also read that Castro hated dogs and destroyed the registries in Cuba. What a shame. I wonder if some day they'll show up, having been hidden away all these years.

How far back to the Hungarian / European records go? 

Think I'll have time to ponder these questions when I get my girl home? lol


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

My answers below are in red, and are just from my memory without checking to verify dates, but they are pretty close if not exact.



Divaskychick said:


> I read recently that all the Havanese in the US come from eleven dogs that made it out of Cuba during the revolution. The registry was started by Dorothy Goodale in 1984. The original dogs she used came from two families that she bought them from. She said they came from Cuba based on what the people who sold them to her told her. These families could never be located. DNA research on a small number of Cuban dogs shows that Havanese share 3 out of 78 chromosomes with the Cubans. Remember, history depends on who it is written by. My entry above is simply the facts without factoring in beliefs that many have.
> 
> When did the AKC recognize the Havanese as a breed and how did anyone know they had a pure bred dog to start off with, unless they could trace their dog to one of the eleven? AKC accepted the breed in 1999. There has always been a parent club (split a couple of times) since soon after Dorothy Goodale started keeping the registry. She started several other breed registries. A parent club has to present the registry to AKC before they will accept it, and there are all sorts of requirements. There was much waling and knashing of teeth for years over the issue of presenting to AKC before it was ever aggreed to.
> 
> ...


We have 5 generations in our house, and we can trace every line back another 5 or 6 (or more-can't remember exactly) to the original American dogs.


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## Pattie (Jun 25, 2008)

Tom,

The only small quibbles I have with a couple of your facts are that Dorothy published in her book that she began a registry for Havanese in 1974, not 1984 and AKC recognized Havanese in 1996, not 1999.


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## Divaskychick (May 18, 2011)

Ohhhh now I'm confused! Not sure what this means -

"DNA research on a small number of Cuban dogs shows that Havanese share 3 out of 78 chromosomes with the Cubans." So today's Havs are not Cuban Havs, even if you can trace back to Dorothy dogs? 


Also, am I stepping into another conversation? What are you talking about here?
"Remember, history depends on who it is written by. My entry above is simply the facts without factoring in beliefs that many have."

I get the feeling there's a whole story I'm not aware of. Share please?


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## CacheHavs (Aug 2, 2007)

Yes the Havanese was accepted into AKC in 1996
This is fromthe akc web site


> Toy Group; AKC recognized in 1996.


 http://www.akc.org/breeds/havanese/

How ever I believe that was in the Miscellaneous Group, and then later was put into the Toy Group in 1999.


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## Lizzie'sMom (Oct 13, 2010)

That gallery was amazing. Got back 5 generations on Lizzie. It was fun seeing pictures of her "family" in the Massivus Angel line.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Pattie said:


> Tom,
> 
> The only small quibbles I have with a couple of your facts are that Dorothy published in her book that she began a registry for Havanese in 1974, not 1984 and AKC recognized Havanese in 1996, not 1999.


The first dog in the registry was entered in 1984 according to the person who saved the registry from being destroyed. It's on floppy disks from when floppy disks were really floppy, so it's not exactly that hard to find. Not only was there an attempt to destroy the registry, but the HCA treasury was also apparently taken by the same person. This was right before the beginning of the first split, when the Original Havanese Club of America was formed right when it looked like the breed was actually going AKC. Dorothy was very much against it going AKC. We were actually members of both clubs just so we could get both their publications. This was swept under the rug long ago, and some of the same people are now considered heroes by some.

'96 was for Miscellaneous, which does not show in all breed shows. Full recognition was in '99. I remember telling them when changes to the standard were being discussed to eliminate specifics and to go into the Toy Group, that, "In ten years we would have dogs in the Toy ring that looked like multi-colored Pomeranians".


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Divaskychick said:


> Wow, that gallery is amazing, thank you! Soleil's oldest ancestors on record were all Cuban and both her parents came from Rag Doll with Cuban Trader.
> 
> I also read that Castro hated dogs and destroyed the registries in Cuba. What a shame. I wonder if some day they'll show up, having been hidden away all these years.
> 
> ...


Castro also didn't allow saxophones, or American cars manufactured after 1962.

There are some 100% Cuban dogs living in this country. Cuban Relief sort of dissolved when the contacts there left. But also, they still have shows there. Dogs are sent from other countries so they can get Cuban Chamionships. Cuba is not a closed country as many here would have you believe. You can go and come from almost anywhere else.

Also, as I said earlier, there are Cuban lines in the AKC registry, from dogs that came in through Canada.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

my answers are posted after the questions.



Divaskychick said:


> Ohhhh now I'm confused! Not sure what this means -
> 
> "DNA research on a small number of Cuban dogs shows that Havanese share 3 out of 78 chromosomes with the Cubans." So today's Havs are not Cuban Havs, even if you can trace back to Dorothy dogs?
> 
> ...


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## Divaskychick (May 18, 2011)

_"I just no longer believe that they originated in Cuba. Many people will cling to their beliefs regardless of the facts though. "_

Okay, now I'm getting it. Fortunately for me I'm not invested either way. But thanks for all the info. As someone said earlier, it's a fun topic!


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## Pattie (Jun 25, 2008)

There are several versions of the origins of Havanese as I stated in my earlier post. I certainly wasn't there at the beginning of the various clubs (thank heavens) and my statement was that they were recognized in 1996 by AKC and that is still true, albeit in Misc. class. 

As far as all of the other rumors, I'm not interested in that aspect. The history of Havanese may never be completely known, and people can choose to believe what they wish, but the romance of the breed, whether they originated in Cuba, or Italy or elsewhere in the Mediterranean regions, is not destroyed for me.

It is a lovely, joyful breed, with an interesting, complicated history.


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## ruthann (Jan 26, 2007)

Thanks Heather and Pattie for the e-mail address to do research. I appreciate the info. I am now going to go and use the info. Ruthann


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## Pattie (Jun 25, 2008)

Great, Ruthann. If I can be of assistance,just holler.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I can easily trace my boy's lineage back 9 generations.

I love that there is a registry and everyone can view the pictures etc.

Thank goodness we have all survived past all the drama of the "splits"


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