# Why are chocolates hot?



## DebW (Jun 11, 2013)

In my search for my next furkid, as compared to looking for a puppy back in 2000, I notice that the breeders that I've talked to tout the fact that they have chocolates, and some charge more for them.

Are chocolate Havs considered especially prized? If so, why?


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## HalleBerry (Feb 22, 2012)

My guess would be that chocolate is the current popularity trend; so economics drives the price. The more people want them, the more people charge for them.


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## Sharonefinkel (Jan 20, 2013)

The only thing that I heard was that both parents must carry the chocolate gene, so it makes them more rare?? I didn't pay a huge premium for Bosco, I just liked the brown color and his outgoing personality.


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## Ruth4Havs (May 13, 2013)

I guess its just more pretty and valuable. Chester had a chocolate brother that was like a $100 bucks more than him.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

The reputable breeders I know do NOT charge more for chocolate puppies. From what I have seen, there are LOTS of chocolates out there that are fine as pet quality dogs, but have flaws (particularly faulty skin and eye color) that would preclude their use as show/breeding dogs. Why would anyone be willing to pay more for a lesser quality dog? 

While I've seen some very cute chocolates, most of them fade substantially, and aren't nearly as attractive when they are adults. Many people don't know that, get sucked in by the mystique of "chocolate" (especially since they paid more for it) only to find that they have a sort of cream colored dog, with light eyes and chocolate skin when they mature.

I wouldn't avoid a chocolate if it had everything else I was looking for in a Havanese, but I sure wouldn't go out of my way for it, and I CERTAINLY wouldn't choose a chocolate over a better quality, better raised pup of any other color.


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## HalleBerry (Feb 22, 2012)

Life lesson learned today at the vet clinic :nono: chocolate bulldogs - cannot be shown, hence considered "rare" have stud fees at $15K, puppies at $23K+ WAY above show quality bulldogs. 

There is a HUGE market out there for what is advertised as "rare"


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

personally I don't understand the 'trend' ... It is a matter of preference and I ADORE little black noses, and rims and pink/black paw pads... but that's just my preference...


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I love the chocolate, but I still think the black and whites are my favorite. They have so much flash when they walk.


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## HalleBerry (Feb 22, 2012)

I too am not thrilled with the lighter chocolates - just not enough pigment for my personal preference - but I've seen some dark chocolates lately that I thought were mighty cute. 

However, I do so love the dark eyes & pads also.....


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## jmombo (Jul 7, 2013)

Besides the fact that I like the look of them, I went with chocolates because I have dark brown couches. Although they are said to be non-shedding, anything with hair loses some. This way, when hair falls, you won't see it on my sofas!! Makes good sense to me. Plus the pups coordinate like cuddly little throw pillows in the corners of the couch! Hee Hee!!


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## BearsMom (Jul 16, 2012)

I've seen the same trend when I go to websites and search puppies (I just like to be nosey...Bear is not getting a partner in crime anytime soon). I have also seen many people charging more for the chocolate hav's. I agree with previous posters that I don't think it is right to do so and many good breeders will not charge more. 
That being said, yes, I think chocolate havs are adorable. But I'm more drawn to the breed, not the color of a dog.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

BearsMom said:


> I've seen the same trend when I go to websites and search puppies (I just like to be nosey...Bear is not getting a partner in crime anytime soon). I have also seen many people charging more for the chocolate hav's. I agree with previous posters that I don't think it is right to do so and many good breeders will not charge more.
> That being said, yes, I think chocolate havs are adorable. But I'm more drawn to the breed, not the color of a dog.


I don't know of ANY reputable breeders who charge more for them. They are simply "one more color" in the "rainbow" of Havanese colors. Nothing wrong with that color, but they shouldn't be treated as something "special" either.

And like you, I don't pick animals based on color. (for the most part... I refuse to buy a white horse... WAY too much work! )


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## HalleBerry (Feb 22, 2012)

I did go see a litter that had 3 dark chocolates in it yesterday - VERY cute puppies! But since I color tested Halle & DD and neither of them carry dilute - chocolate is not in my future.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

HalleBerry said:


> I did go see a litter that had 3 dark chocolates in it yesterday - VERY cute puppies! But since I color tested Halle & DD and neither of them carry dilute - chocolate is not in my future.


GOOD chocolates are adorable. But I see so many that lose a lot (or all) of their color, and have eyes and pigment that are too light. Of course, they are just as good pets, whether their color is good or not, and let's face it, MOST Havanese puppies are sold as pets, not to show homes.

I think it's SO cool that we can DNA test for so many different factors now. Havanese have such a complex color mix that I know it can still be a surprise what you get, but it's fun to start with at least a LITTLE info up front.  Did you test for curly too?


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## HalleBerry (Feb 22, 2012)

I know - about the pigment - so now that I've seen these as little ones, I can't wait to see them later, as adults, and compare the change! 

I didn't test for curly - but I thought about it  It was only $120 each to color test, and they had the results back in less than a week - so that was terrific.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

My friend got interested in having a chocolate litter. She chose a breeder that she had to pay to fly to and spend more on expenses. Her bitch had a litter with only one chocolate male. She didn't sell him and He has kept his dark red brown color.He is doing well in the show ring. I think he is about a year and a half old now.She does have more money invested in him then her other Havanese so who knows if she would factor that into the cost or not.She has another Bitch that has the chocolate gene who she will breed him to her he turns two. 
If I was a breeder I would go for the pillow talk lines and breed for beautiful reds.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> My friend got interested in having a chocolate litter. She chose a breeder that she had to pay to fly to and spend more on expenses. Her bitch had a litter with only one chocolate male. She didn't sell him and He has kept his dark red brown color.He is doing well in the show ring. I think he is about a year and a half old now.She does have more money invested in him then her other Havanese so who knows if she would factor that into the cost or not.She has another Bitch that has the chocolate gene who she will breed him to her he turns two.
> If I was a breeder I would go for the pillow talk lines and breed for beautiful reds.


I like reds better too, largely because I prefer black skin. I wouldn't CHOOSE a dog based on color, but if the perfect dog, who just HAPPENED to be red came along, I'd be thrilled!


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## HalleBerry (Feb 22, 2012)

I love the dark red color.... but I know more that started off deep dark red and faded to almost nothing.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

HalleBerry said:


> I love the dark red color.... but I know more that started off deep dark red and faded to almost nothing.


I know. At the specialty, you'll see my friend Elinor's red dog, imported from Germany. He's from Pillowtalk lines. When she first got him we weren't sure how his color would hold. He's actually gotten DARKER as he matured. He's 18 months now, I think so I'm pretty sure, at this point, that it's going to stay.


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## HalleBerry (Feb 22, 2012)

I'd love to see the DNA color differences between a light red and a dark red.... I wish more people would do it!!!!


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## jcbpaisley (Mar 6, 2013)

krandall said:


> I know. At the specialty, you'll see my friend Elinor's red dog, imported from Germany. He's from Pillowtalk lines. When she first got him we weren't sure how his color would hold. He's actually gotten DARKER as he matured. He's 18 months now, I think so I'm pretty sure, at this point, that it's going to stay.


I LOVE Pillowtalk dogs!!! They are stunning, I love seeing the photos on their facebook page. We hope to move to Europe someday and I want to hold off on a second Hav till then, so we can get a Pillowtalk dog


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

HalleBerry said:


> I'd love to see the DNA color differences between a light red and a dark red.... I wish more people would do it!!!!


I don't think they've sorted out what goes into producing red yet. I know I've been told that to maintain deep red, you need to keep breeding back to black. Otherwise they get washed out. That's true with flaxen chestnut and palomino in horses too.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jcbpaisley said:


> I LOVE Pillowtalk dogs!!! They are stunning, I love seeing the photos on their facebook page. We hope to move to Europe someday and I want to hold off on a second Hav till then, so we can get a Pillowtalk dog


Just to be clear though, Tony isn't a Pillowtalk dog... he's Pillowtalk lines (close up though)


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## HalleBerry (Feb 22, 2012)

Interesting Karen.... I'd think that they'd choose black because it's not a dilute nor a greying/silvering/fading color.... same as chocolates breed to black to hold the dark chocolate. I think that you're right - we don't have enough genetic markers yet - but maybe one day.....


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

HalleBerry said:


> Interesting Karen.... I'd think that they'd choose black because it's not a dilute nor a greying/silvering/fading color.... same as chocolates breed to black to hold the dark chocolate. I think that you're right - we don't have enough genetic markers yet - but maybe one day.....


We should team up with the Great Dane people. Because their different colors and patterns show in different classes, they know a TON about color... assuming that the genetics are the same. Which I know isn't a sure bet.


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## HalleBerry (Feb 22, 2012)

Great dane colors are simple - if it is, it is. Havanese colors mutate  I think the havanese need to sort out the modifiers - rather than the colors - since identifying the color just leads to a varying shade range. Danes don't have those modifiers.... but believe me, the parent club has spent boatloads sorting out harlequin!!!!


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## sandypaws (Aug 8, 2012)

*Why are chocolates so hot*



krandall said:


> I know. At the specialty, you'll see my friend Elinor's red dog, imported from Germany. He's from Pillowtalk lines. When she first got him we weren't sure how his color would hold. He's actually gotten DARKER as he matured. He's 18 months now, I think so I'm pretty sure, at this point, that it's going to stay.


I remember when Tony was a pup, Elinor kept showing me his dark red roots, just hoping that was the key to his being red as he matured. It does seem as though that is happening.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

HalleBerry said:


> Great dane colors are simple - if it is, it is. Havanese colors mutate  I think the havanese need to sort out the modifiers - rather than the colors - since identifying the color just leads to a varying shade range. Danes don't have those modifiers.... but believe me, the parent club has spent boatloads sorting out harlequin!!!!


That's true, I hadn't thought about all the modifier influence.


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## HalleBerry (Feb 22, 2012)

For example, this is Halle:

_Dog does not carry the gene responsible for recessive black coat color.
Dog does not carry the gene responsible for fawn/sable coat color.
Dog has two copies of the tan points/tricolor gene.
Dog carries the allele responsible for the yellow coat color, and could pass on either allele to any offspring..
Dog does not carry the brown allele, and can never pass on the gene for brown to future offspring
Dog is negative for the dilution gene.
Dog has one copy of the dominant black gene. Dog is self-colored, and can pass on that gene to any offspring. 
Dog has two copies of the spotting or parti-color gene, and will always pass on one copy to all offspring._

Now, she was black & white as a puppy.... then havana brown.... and is now fading to silver. Still parti color.


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## jillnors2 (Apr 12, 2007)

I have no idea, chocolates are not my favorite, I personally like a black nose and black pigment.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

krandall said:


> Just to be clear though, Tony isn't a Pillowtalk dog... he's Pillowtalk lines (close up though)


 I must have missed something who is Tony?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

HalleBerry said:


> For example, this is Halle:
> 
> _Dog does not carry the gene responsible for recessive black coat color.
> Dog does not carry the gene responsible for fawn/sable coat color.
> ...


So she must also carry the gene for silvering...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> I must have missed something who is Tony?


He's a young red dog belonging to a friend of mine, who will be at the specialty.


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## HalleBerry (Feb 22, 2012)

Yes Karen - that's exactly it! Now, Halle has one copy of the dominant black gene - DD, who is staying black, has two copies of the dominant black gene. So, I'm wondering, maybe dogs who hold their color have the two copies, while dogs who silver/fade only have one. Can't wait until I can convince more people to do the testing so I can watch and see!!!!


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## Miss Paige (Apr 4, 2008)

I would not get a dog only on color alone. Health testing of the lines are more important to me, then personalility and then finally color. I know some great breeders who have chocolate who if I had to have a chocolate I would be beating down their doors. I saw my first red Havie a few years back when I saw Hannah's Truman-it was love at first sight for me-beautiful Pillowtalk Boy. Then I adopted Frannie who was a beautiful Gold color-she held that color the last two years I had her.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Miss Paige said:


> I would not get a dog only on color alone. Health testing of the lines are more important to me, then personalility and then finally color. I know some great breeders who have chocolate who if I had to have a chocolate I would be beating down their doors. I saw my first red Havie a few years back when I saw Hannah's Truman-it was love at first sight for me-beautiful Pillowtalk Boy. Then I adopted Frannie who was a beautiful Gold color-she held that color the last two years I had her.


I'd add two more things to your list of "more important than color" for me... structure and the way the breeder raises the pups. I need a sound dog for the sports I do, and structure plays an important role in staying sound over the long haul. How a puppy is raise also has a big influence on how he reacts with the rest of the world. (also important in performance dogs) I want a breeder who not only loves and plays with their puppies, but exposes them to a lot of different experiences during their formative weeks. If that were not possible, I'd HAVE to have a breeder who would let me take the pup at 8 weeks so that I could start that ASAP myself. (even if it meant living with a nipping monster for a while! :laugh


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## jcbpaisley (Mar 6, 2013)

I have to admit that I'm one of those people that does care a bit about color.... Not that I would compromise on the other important things (health testing, early socialization, etc), but... If I'm going to be looking at my dog every day for 15 years she may as well be pretty! I did wait to find a pup with coloring I like that will probably fade to something I like as well, although this was certainly a "last priority" after finding a great breeder.

That said I'm also not a fan of chocolates, I don't like the brown pigment. (Adore Pillowtalk-type dogs with red color and black pigment.) I have also seen some pics of chocolates with light (bluish) eyes, what's up with that?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jcbpaisley said:


> I have to admit that I'm one of those people that does care a bit about color.... Not that I would compromise on the other important things (health testing, early socialization, etc), but... If I'm going to be looking at my dog every day for 15 years she may as well be pretty! I did wait to find a pup with coloring I like that will probably fade to something I like as well, although this was certainly a "last priority" after finding a great breeder.
> 
> That said I'm also not a fan of chocolates, I don't like the brown pigment. (Adore Pillowtalk-type dogs with red color and black pigment.) I have also seen some pics of chocolates with light (bluish) eyes, what's up with that?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Oh! I'm not saying that color/markings are NO consideration for me... just way lower down the list. I still probably wouldn't take a puppy whose markings seemed "odd" to me, and if it happened to be a chocolate, it would have to have really good, deep skin and eye color. I tend to be drawn to fairly symmetrical marking, too. As I think I said in another post, all else being EQUAL, I'd LOVE a red Havanese. 

Oh, and I forgot... I don't want a Hav with a REALLY heavy undercoat, and I DEFINITELY don't want one with a curly coat. I guess I'm pretty picky, when it comes right down to it!!!:laugh:


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## HalleBerry (Feb 22, 2012)

I'm with you Karen - balance in color is important - of course after health/temperament etc. I haven't liked the lighter chocolates - but I'm watching some dark chocolates grow up, so I can see what their adult color/pigment is before I totally nix that idea


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## Miss Paige (Apr 4, 2008)

Karen,
Of course the way a puppy is socialized is very important, and structure is very important. I just did not add,them because my list of where I want a puppy to come from is very short and they do everything right in my "book.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Miss Paige said:


> Karen,
> Of course the way a puppy is socialized is very important, and structure is very important. I just did not add,them because my list of where I want a puppy to come from is very short and they do everything right in my "book.


Oh, I know you would be a very informed puppy buyer... I just figured if I was building a puppy "wish list", I should include everything!  My list of potential breeders is exceedingly short, and that takes a number of concerns off the table too. It also means there's no possibility of chocolate, just because they don't happen to have any in their lines!


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## BEACHPLUM (Feb 23, 2013)

I love my little dog, she is Chocolate with white. Her eyes are a beautiful Amber color. I like that you can't see her tears so much as with the havanese with white faces. I guess it is all in personal preference. I was looking for an older havanese (she is 18 months now) The breeder picked her for me. I would love to see her her puppies. I wonder if any of her pups are on here? They were born in June and come from Avonlea Havanese.


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