# When did you spay your hav?



## havhappy63 (Oct 24, 2014)

Hello,
As Marty has reached the six month mark and we start to think about spaying her, I'm wondering what your experience has been. When did you have your girl spayed (assuming you did!)? Would you have waited longer if you did it again? Our vet is recommending 8-9 months, or close to Marty's first heat. Her littermate (who coincidentally lives 20 minutes from us, so they have play dates!) just got spayed.

Thanks for your thoughts!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

My older female was spayed at 18 months, after her tirst heat at 14 months. I would not spay before their first bithday AND their first heat. My younger girl is showing, so won't be spayed for some time.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Our vet recommended not to spay Truffles until after her first heat for the benefit of hormones.The breeder mentioned it would be a good idea to wait until she was one year old. She had her first heat at seven months and was spayed at one year old.


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## Olliepup (Jun 2, 2016)

I'm curious too. Olive just turned 7 months and my vet recommended spaying her at around 6 months and before her first heat. There's so much information online supporting both sides so it makes it really difficult to decide.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Olliepup said:


> I'm curious too. Olive just turned 7 months and my vet recommended spaying her at around 6 months and before her first heat. There's so much information online supporting both sides so it makes it really difficult to decide.


Most newer studies support allowing the puppy to mature before spay/neuter AS LONG AS the own will be responsible and make sure the dog does not have a chance to reproduce during this period.


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## Trixi (Dec 26, 2014)

I personally think it's best to wait until after they've had their first season so that they have reached full maturity. My girl is 18 months and we're waiting until after her 2nd season. I was advised that it shouldn't be done near to a season though as it can be more risky/cause complications. 

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk


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## articshark (Apr 4, 2016)

My breeder also suggested waiting until after Java's first heat. She went into heat at about 8 months old. And she will be spayed at 11 months. I'd wait longer, but this is the latest I can wait before I have some other stuff happening for a while. And I don't want the possibility of her coming into her second season while I'm not able to handle a second season- I have some health issue that are going to be ramping up shortly which were unforeseen. 

From all the advice on this forum, I think waiting at least 2 months from her heat cycle to her spay is a safe time period and the minimum that should be allowed. And I will able to push it out to almost 3 months. Well, it will be just shy of 3 months from her heat to her spay.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

articshark said:


> My breeder also suggested waiting until after Java's first heat. She went into heat at about 8 months old. And she will be spayed at 11 months. I'd wait longer, but this is the latest I can wait before I have some other stuff happening for a while. And I don't want the possibility of her coming into her second season while I'm not able to handle a second season- I have some health issue that are going to be ramping up shortly which were unforeseen.
> 
> From all the advice on this forum, I think waiting at least 2 months from her heat cycle to her spay is a safe time period and the minimum that should be allowed. And I will able to push it out to almost 3 months. Well, it will be just shy of 3 months from her heat to her spay.


Yes, there are always timing things that can also weigh into when the best time is to spay, also. With Pixel, we COULD have have picked a spay day a couple of weeks earlier, but were going to be away for a wedding. Because there was still plenty of leeway before she could come into heat again, we chose to put it off a bit longer. ...Then she had a false pregnancy in the intervening time, which made the delay a better choice anyway!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Interesting article on the subject: EARLY SPAY-NEUTER IN THE CANINE ATHLETE, by Chris Zink, DVM, PHd

I suspect that the type of people who will not keep their young, intact dogs from breeding are also unlikely to pay for an early sterilization followed by a full spay/neuter later, but the bottom line is that more and more studies are showing that early spay/neuter might be the right decision from a human perspective, for some dogs, but it is not in the best interest of the dog's health.


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## Chasing Mayzie (Aug 16, 2016)

My vet told me we would spay Mayzie after her front baby teeth were gone and her baby canine teeth were either falling out or on the verge of falling out. It didn't have anything to do with teeth..that's just what he uses as a measure of maturity. He said he tries to spay them as close as possible to their first heat, hoping they will have gotten all of those hormones, but tries to beat their actual heat. If they DO go into heat, he said he takes it on a case-by-case basis, but does sometimes spay during a heat.

That being said, Mayzie has gone through so much that I am going to wait to spay her until after the new year. She probably will have had a heat, and that isn't something I really wanna deal with, but she deserves a break. This Friday is her very last mange dip.


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## havhappy63 (Oct 24, 2014)

Thank you all for your perspectives. I think we will deal with a heat!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Chasing Mayzie said:


> My vet told me we would spay Mayzie after her front baby teeth were gone and her baby canine teeth were either falling out or on the verge of falling out. It didn't have anything to do with teeth..that's just what he uses as a measure of maturity. He said he tries to spay them as close as possible to their first heat, hoping they will have gotten all of those hormones, but tries to beat their actual heat. If they DO go into heat, he said he takes it on a case-by-case basis, but does sometimes spay during a heat.
> 
> That being said, Mayzie has gone through so much that I am going to wait to spay her until after the new year. She probably will have had a heat, and that isn't something I really wanna deal with, but she deserves a break. This Friday is her very last mange dip.


Spaying during heat is more dangerous for the dog. There is no doubt about that. Spaying BEFORE the first heat definitely does NOT allow them to recieve all the benefits of their natural hormones.

A lot of people don't want to deal with a bitch in heat (though it's really not that big a deal with our small breed girls) and that is a valid reason to decide to spay early. But it is for the sake of the owners, not the sake of the dog.


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## Chasing Mayzie (Aug 16, 2016)

Krandall, I agree with you. My vet spays during heat on "a case by case basis", and he mentioned something about having intact males in the neighborhood or if the neutered males in the home were acting out or something. And that's something I can see an owner doing. I have never seen a dog in heat that I know of, but geez, it can't be too difficult to deal with, right? Between Django's leaky bottom and Sophie's sensitive tummy and Mayzie's irritable coat and a million other things forum members have had to deal with, I think a heat has to be manageable!


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## Olliepup (Jun 2, 2016)

Thanks for all the information. After doing more research, I've also decided to wait until after Olives first heat.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Chasing Mayzie said:


> Krandall, I agree with you. My vet spays during heat on "a case by case basis", and he mentioned something about having intact males in the neighborhood or if the neutered males in the home were acting out or something. And that's something I can see an owner doing. I have never seen a dog in heat that I know of, but geez, it can't be too difficult to deal with, right? Between Django's leaky bottom and Sophie's sensitive tummy and Mayzie's irritable coat and a million other things forum members have had to deal with, I think a heat has to be manageable!


The first week, there can be some blood, though it varies how much from bitch to bitch. Pixel had enough that I kept pants on her when she wasn't in her crate or the kitchen, but it wasn't too bad. Panda bled a LOT and needed to be confined or have pants on... then her pad needed to be changed frequently. But I know LOTS of people whose girls bleed so little, and clean themselves so well that they hardly know they are in heat.

After the first week, they don't bleed any more, but this is when they tend to attract male dogs. They are fertile around day 13, though you will want to be super careful both before that day and WELL after. The full heat cycle is about 3 weeks. I didn't find it to be that big a deal, except that I had to go away for two days during Panda's and the person caring for her didn't really know how to care for her coat. As a result, she got TERRIBLY matted under the panties. When I was home, I just combed her out completely a couple of times a day, and she had very little matting, even wearing the pants.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Chasing Mayzie said:


> Krandall, I agree with you. My vet spays during heat on "a case by case basis", and he mentioned something about having intact males in the neighborhood or if the neutered males in the home were acting out or something. And that's something I can see an owner doing. I have never seen a dog in heat that I know of, but geez, it can't be too difficult to deal with, right? Between Django's leaky bottom and Sophie's sensitive tummy and Mayzie's irritable coat and a million other things forum members have had to deal with, I think a heat has to be manageable!


I guess every heat is different. With Truffles if was barely noticeable. She had only a few sprinkles of blood during the first week. Maybe it wasn't too bad because she was only seven months old. Scout did take a little more interest in her. We still took her on walks and to the park supervised. No dogs ever took any interest in her.


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## boomana (Jul 9, 2015)

Lola had a light heat around 10 months, very little discharge, but two weeks of crazy with having a male (neutered, but still horny) in the house. She was spayed at a year.

Glad Mayzie is nearing the end of her treatment.


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## articshark (Apr 4, 2016)

Java had almost no blood. And if I hadn't noticed her licking herself to clean and her HUGE vulva, I would never have known. I still took her on walks and stuff and just kept her away form other dogs. I expected more, but got way less. That's the way I like these things to turn out! lol


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## Olliepup (Jun 2, 2016)

Just want to share the recommendation from my vet. 

Basically it depends. Spaying before the first heat reduces the chances of mammary cancer to close to zero, but some studies have shown a increased incidence of orthopedic issues (mostly in large breeds). If Olive has a recessed vulva, she may be more prone to urinary tract infections as there is never the hormonal influence of mature ovaries that gets it to develop.

Spaying after the first heat increases the chance of mammary cancer to about 7%. But it allows her genitalia to develop a little and may make UTI’s less likely. Her growth plates have more of a chance to grow as well. The first heat generally occurs between 7-13 months of age. The heats generally last 2-3 weeks and are characterized by bloody vaginal discharge, changes in appetite and some behavioral changes. The second heat is usually 6 months later. Some owners will aim to have the surgery done just before the second heat, or roughly 4-5 months after the first heat.

Spaying after the second heat increases the chances of mammary cancer to close to 25%, so waiting this long is definitely not recommended in a small breed.

I would weigh everything, but a lot of the concerns with orthopedics aren’t as big of a concern as they would be if she were a larger breed dog. Just my opinion, ask 4 different vets, and you may get 3 slightly different answers.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

articshark said:


> Java had almost no blood. And if I hadn't noticed her licking herself to clean and her HUGE vulva, I would never have known. I still took her on walks and stuff and just kept her away form other dogs. I expected more, but got way less. That's the way I like these things to turn out! lol


Yes, it's the "baboon butt" that gives it away, with or without blood! :laugh:


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

While there can be a higher instance of certain cancers and Pyo in bitches that remain unspayed, those numbers seem incredibly high, especially for after just two heats. Spaying is an unnatural process developed by humans to stave off unwanted pregnancies in their dogs, and while there is certainly a difference between the domesticated dog and the wolf, for dogs to benefit from naturally occurring hormones is "how nature intended it". Those numbers suggest that 1 in 4 dogs spayed after their second heat will develop not just a tumor, but a malignant one. The only dogs I know that developed cancer (that I know of) after a late spay were both Goldens.

This is also completely glazing over the fact that dogs that miss out on those hormones have been shown to have a higher incidence of mast cell cancer, hemangiosarcoma, and lymphoma. These cancers typically have a grimmer prognosis than mammary cancer. There was also a study done where spayed/neutered dogs tended to die of cancer or an immune-mediated disease, whereas dogs left intact longer were more likely to die of ID or trauma. I could also mention the fact that cancer is challenging to study due to its multifaceted nature. 

All of that said, when to spay is a decision up to the owner. In some instances, allowing the bitch to go through a season or two isn't a viable option, but as more research/studies come out, people are beginning to lean toward a post-estrus spay


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Olliepup said:


> Just want to share the recommendation from my vet.
> 
> Basically it depends. Spaying before the first heat reduces the chances of mammary cancer to close to zero, but some studies have shown a increased incidence of orthopedic issues (mostly in large breeds). If Olive has a recessed vulva, she may be more prone to urinary tract infections as there is never the hormonal influence of mature ovaries that gets it to develop.
> 
> ...


Well, what is left out of the cancer issue is that, caught early, mammary cancers are very treatable and unlikely to spread. dogs who are spayed (or neutered) early have a MUCH higher incidence of both hemangiosarcoma and osteosarcoma, both of which are pretty much a death sentence.

Also, my understanding is that the increased likelihood of mammary cancer isn't 25% of the unspayed population, but a 25% increase OVER that initial 7%... or an increase of 1.75% if I did my math right.

Besides the UTI issue, females are less likely to develop spay induced urinary incontinence if they are allowed to go through at least one heat. Both UTI issues AND the chance of incontinence would be enough for me to choose to delay spaying, even if it weren't better for them structurally.

However, I agree that for most people and most bitches after the first heat is probably the best compromise. That's what I did with Pixel, since she wasn't being shown in conformation, and I knew I had no intention of breeding her. There didn't seem to be THAT much benefit to going though another heat, and I really wanted to avoid another false pregnancy. It was kind of funny the first time, but it could get old quickly... especially considering how snarky she got with the other dogs about her "babies".


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

Allowing a female dog to go through one heat cycle is possible if you do NOT work outside the home and can ensure she doesn't come into contact with unneutered dogs.

Emmie was spayed at 7.5 months. I work at a large company and when she was a puppy her daytime care was at a great doggie daycare in our area. They do not allow unspayed females over a certain age so that was the key justification for not having her go through one heat cycle.

I'm very happy with my decision and Emmie is a very healthy dog; she's never had a UTI and is not obese (or pudgy), which is a risk as spaying changes a dog's hormonal make-up and metabolism so she doesn't require as much food.

Spaying may increase the risk of a deadly cancer called hemangiosarcoma; however, Havanese is not a breed that is typically at risk. Hemangiosarcoma is much more common in certain breeds, such as the Afghan Hound, Belgian Shepherds, Bernese Mountain Dog, Bouvier des Flandres, Boston Terrier, Boxer, Bulldog, Doberman Pinscher, English Setter, Flat Coated Retriever, French Bulldog, German Shepherd, Golden Retriever, Greater Swiss Mountain Dog, Labrador Retriever, Rhodesian Ridgeback, Rottweiler, Saluki, Scottish Terrier, Skye Terrier, and Vizsla.


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

MarinaGirl said:


> Allowing a female dog to go through one heat cycle is possible if you do NOT work outside the home and can ensure she doesn't come into contact with unneutered dogs.


I'm gonna have to disagree with the first statement. Yes, some daycares don't allow intact dogs, but the majority of daycares in our area have solitary rooms for dogs that can only have human interaction (it's a bit pricier, but that's because they put aside specific time to give your dog attention), whether they're nervous, dog aggressive, or in heat. Many of us here on the forum opt for the dog walker option, which is what I would choose if the boys were alone during the day. When a bitch is in heat, it's easy enough to ask the walker to just give her extra indoor play time.

My mother works full time, and I am a fulltime student with a part time job. One of my brothers goes to school online though, so on days where I'm gone for awhile, I know they are getting attention. Waiting past a heat is absolutely possible even if you work away from home, just not if you send your dog to a daycare without private rooms. The main thing owners need to be certain of is that their girls will have no contact with intact dogs. Just don't want to deter people from waiting who have otherwise decided they would like to


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

KarMar said:


> I'm gonna have to disagree with the first statement. Yes, some daycares don't allow intact dogs, but the majority of daycares in our area have solitary rooms for dogs that can only have human interaction (it's a bit pricier, but that's because they put aside specific time to give your dog attention), whether they're nervous, dog aggressive, or in heat.


All of the daycares in Seattle require that a dog is spayed or neutered before turning 7 months of age.


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## articshark (Apr 4, 2016)

krandall said:


> Yes, it's the "baboon butt" that gives it away, with or without blood! :laugh:


Baboon butt... OMG. YES! That is totally what she had. She normally walks with a little bounce and her butt shakes from side to side. I call her my shake-a shake-a girl when she's doing her thing. But during her heat, she's switched her tail a little as well. So I started called her shake-a shake-a switchy woman. She's so adorable. But I'm glad she's back to just being my plain ol' shake-a shake-a girl again. :laugh2:


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## Bowie's Mom (Oct 1, 2016)

Does anyone have guidelines for neutering boy dogs??


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

MarinaGirl said:


> All of the daycares in Seattle require that a dog is spayed or neutered before turning 7 months of age.


And earlier spay is a PERFECTLY reasonable in this situation. I don't like to hear people doing it JUST for convenience sake, but dogs DO need to fit into our life style to some extent, and especially with a small dog, early spay/neuter makes sense for some people in some situations.

Jeanne, I think you are the MODEL of how to keep a Havanese happy, healthy and well adjusted living in the city with a full time job. You think through the decisions you make and choose the best options based on your needs and Emmy's I think that is the MOST important part. Be well informed and make INFORMED decisions on your dog's care, whether that is day care or health care!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Bowie's Mom said:


> Does anyone have guidelines for neutering boy dogs??


Pretty much the same... If you can stand it, wait until they are sexually mature and growth plates have closed... or about 1 year. (older with larger breeds) OTOH, you then have to be prepared to teach them not to mark, which is TOTALLY do-able, but is DIFFERENT than normal "potty training". Some people just don't want to put in that extra work and choose to neuter earlier.

In my case, 7 years ago, most people were still neutering pet dogs around 6 months. Kodi was 7 months when he was neutered... and grew a LOT after that. That is something that can happen when you spay or neuter too early. The long bones continue to grow, because the hormones that would tell them to stop never kick in. I am quite sure that if I had neutered Kodi later, her wouldn't be as tall as he is. (11 1/2") ...And there was no real reason to get him neutered that early, because he didn't even START lifting his leg until he was 2 years old, so he NEVER marked as a puppy. But I was doing what I thought was the right thing at the time, and was written into my contract. (my breeder has changed her contract since then, because SHE now knows it's better not to spay or neuter that early too) We've learned since then. 

Hind sight is 20/20. We can just do the best we can with the information available to us at the time. ...And we love our "lap and a half" dog.


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## Bowie's Mom (Oct 1, 2016)

Thank you! I never would've thought about the hormones and growth issues. I thought size was pretty much predetermined by hereditary. Guess I have some time, but good to start thinking about it. Not used to all the boy stuff!


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