# little Havana Featuring Bella



## Deborah Casher (Jan 10, 2022)

Hi folks 
This summer we travelled from San Diego to Miami for vacation. Couldn’t resist a stop in Little Havana for lunch where we captured this photo. She is now 10 months old and thriving beautifully. 

The heat was pretty horrible but she managed and her coat took a beating.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

That is a sweet picture of your cutie! 🌴


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## Lola&Mico (4 mo ago)

Hi
I got My first Havanese almost 2 years ago and then I had to get another. They are so amazing!
I love the color of your friend. Is he considered a Havana brown?
If I can get a photo up I’d like your opinion of this puppy’s color. The color charts are pretty intense!! The pup is one week old and the litter had a chocolate and white but this puppies nose is black or the darkest brown ever. 
Do you have a pic of your sweetie as a puppy that you could show me


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

This puppy is a sable. He looks like he will probably be a gold sable, but that will be easier to tell when he is a bit older. But there is no doubt that he is sable.


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

krandall said:


> This puppy is a sable. He looks like he will probably be a gold sable, but that will be easier to tell when he is a bit older. But there is no doubt that he is sable.


I agree! He looks a lot like my Charlie as a puppy, who is registered as gold brindle but I think is actually gold sable bc he didn’t have the tiger stripes.

This is him at 4 weeks:









And here he is at recently, at 10 😊


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

A lot of breeders mistakenly call sables “brindle if they have a black mask. The mask actually comes from a different gene.


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## Lola&Mico (4 mo ago)

krandall said:


> This puppy is a sable. He looks like he will probably be a gold sable, but that will be easier to tell when he is a bit older. But there is no doubt that he is sable.


Thanks. The colors are a bit much sometimes


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## Lola&Mico (4 mo ago)

LWalks said:


> I agree! He looks a lot like my Charlie as a puppy, who is registered as gold brindle but I think is actually gold sable bc he didn’t have the tiger stripes.
> 
> This is him at 4 weeks:
> View attachment 178807
> ...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lola&Mico said:


> Thanks. The colors are a bit much sometimes


Not sure what you mean.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> Not sure what you mean.


I took it to mean a bit hard to follow and figure out


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> I took it to mean a bit hard to follow and figure out


Ah, yes, Havanese color genetics are very complicated, because there are MANY “modifier” genes, and we do not know the markers for them all yet, nor do we fully understand how they influence base color genes!


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## Lola&Mico (4 mo ago)

Melissa Brill said:


> I took it to mean a bit hard to follow and figure out


Exactly I’ll try and be more precise🐶


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## Lola&Mico (4 mo ago)

LWalks said:


> I agree! He looks a lot like my Charlie as a puppy, who is registered as gold brindle but I think is actually gold sable bc he didn’t have the tiger stripes.
> 
> This is him at 4 weeks:
> View attachment 178807
> ...


What an itty bitty cute puppy. I love his color
When you said gold I pictured it so differently. To me (I’m new at Havanese) his color looks so unique like a really pretty smokey gray 
Havanese always look so happy!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lola&Mico said:


> What an itty bitty cute puppy. I love his color
> When you said gold I pictured it so differently. To me (I’m new at Havanese) his color looks so unique like a really pretty smokey gray
> Havanese always look so happy!


The problem is, the breeder has to put something on the registration for a color, at a time when they really have NO idea what the puppy will look like as an adult. And AKC doesn’t help, because the color choices they even allow you to CHOOSE don’t line up with color genetics. So breeders have to make the best guess and the best choice they can at 8-12 weeks, when they need to register the puppy.


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

Lola&Mico said:


> What an itty bitty cute puppy. I love his color
> When you said gold I pictured it so differently. To me (I’m new at Havanese) his color looks so unique like a really pretty smokey gray
> Havanese always look so happy!


His color is constantly changing! I’m pretty sure he has the silvering gene (I think someone told me there’s a gene for that but I’ll defer to @krandall) Right now it’s more grey, though more blond on his underside, but other times it’s much more of a flaxen/light gold color. His changes were most striking in his first year, which is often true of sables (a few more pics of that below, before his first haircut when the dark tips came off), but even 10 years later, he keeps us guessing!


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## Lola&Mico (4 mo ago)

LWalks said:


> His color is constantly changing! I’m pretty sure he has the silvering gene (I think someone told me there’s a gene for that but I’ll defer to @krandall) Right now it’s more grey, though more blond on his underside, but other times it’s much more of a flaxen/light gold color. His changes were most striking in his first year, which is often true of sables (a few more pics of that below, before his first haircut when the dark tips came off), but even 10 years later, he keeps us guessing!
> 
> View attachment 178850
> 
> ...


What a cutie but the color changes are so amazing Lola was almost all black and now has so many other colors like white tannish silver …and she’s not even 2 
It’s something so fun about this breed. 
thanks for the info!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Lola&Mico said:


> What a cutie but the color changes are so amazing Lola was almost all black and now has so many other colors like white tannish silver …and she’s not even 2
> It’s something so fun about this breed.
> thanks for the info!


the silver gene is really interesting because it seems to affect each dog differently. I was pretty sure that Perry was a silver when i got him at 8 months old (he had a touch of white between his toes and he had/ has the more reddish areas around his face that are often signs of a silver) and his sister was very silver already at 8 months old... and through the years you could see some bits of white hair popping out throughout his body, especially in his tail, and at 6+ he's still adding more silver, but his silver, for the most part, is more like a dull black (charcoal gray) against a dark black and, other than a few specific places, you have to really look for it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

LWalks said:


> His color is constantly changing! I’m pretty sure he has the silvering gene (I think someone told me there’s a gene for that but I’ll defer to @krandall) Right now it’s more grey, though more blond on his underside, but other times it’s much more of a flaxen/light gold color. His changes were most striking in his first year, which is often true of sables (a few more pics of that below, before his first haircut when the dark tips came off), but even 10 years later, he keeps us guessing!
> 
> View attachment 178850
> 
> ...


I think it would be REALLY hard to tell just by looking if a sable had the silver gene. I I don't believe there is currently a DNA test for silver for Havanese. There is for one breeds, but unfortunately, these colors aren't on the same locus for all dog breeds. So they have to hunt it down over again for some breeds. That seems to be the case for ours! My GUESS is that dogs like Perry (and like Pixel, who also shows some "sometimes" silvering, and we know she has silver behind her in her family and she has a visible silver sister) inherited a single copy of the silver gene.

But then there is this "other thing" in Havanese that causes many blacks to sort of fade to a "dusty charcoal" color, NOT silver like a silver poodle or true silver Havanese. This happens to a LOT of black Havanese, but not all. And I don't think we know the gene that causes that either!


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## skubler (6 mo ago)

Lola&Mico said:


> View attachment 178789
> Hi
> I got My first Havanese almost 2 years ago and then I had to get another. They are so amazing!
> I love the color of your friend. Is he considered a Havana brown?
> ...


I am far, far, from an expert but he looks like a sable to me. He’s still very little though, it will probably be m prominent as he grows.


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## skubler (6 mo ago)

This is Maggie, her mother was pure white, her sire was Clear Red. She’s a great example of color modifiers that were unknown. She is 3 years old and tricolor, black, white, and either a light gray or silver.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

skubler said:


> This is Maggie, her mother was pure white, her sire was Clear Red. She’s a great example of color modifiers that were unknown. She is 3 years old and tricolor, black, white, and either a light gray or silver.
> View attachment 178883
> 
> View attachment 178884
> ...


Genetically, your girl is a black and tan. (POSSIBLY with a single copy of the silver gene) 

The “white” dog was most likely a VERY faded sable that carried the genetics to produce this.Either that, or the dog you are calling “clear red” was not really, and was a red sable, where the black tips had been cut off his coat, making him LOOK like a clear red. that confuses many people including breeders. I have seen MANY dos listed in the HVanese Gallery as “red”, that are CLEARLY red sables. Was genetic testing for color done on either of the parents?


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## Lola&Mico (4 mo ago)

skubler said:


> This is Maggie, her mother was pure white, her sire was Clear Red. She’s a great example of color modifiers that were unknown. She is 3 years old and tricolor, black, white, and either a light gray or silver.
> View attachment 178883
> 
> View attachment 178884
> ...


What a pretty girl❤


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## skubler (6 mo ago)

krandall said:


> Genetically, your girl is a black and tan. (POSSIBLY with a single copy of the silver gene)
> 
> The “white” dog was most likely a VERY faded sable that carried the genetics to produce this.Either that, or the dog you are calling “clear red” was not really, and was a red sable, where the black tips had been cut off his coat, making him LOOK like a clear red. that confuses many people including breeders. I have seen MANY dos listed in the HVanese Gallery as “red”, that are CLEARLY red sables. Was genetic testing for color done on either of the parents?


I don’t think any genetic testing for color was done. I met both the parents, and breeder stated dad was a clear red. She may have been guessing herself. Maggie as a baby was Black and Tan with white markings. She lost the tan within the first year.


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## skubler (6 mo ago)

And some red always shows in her mustache lol.


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## Lola&Mico (4 mo ago)

skubler said:


> And some red always shows in her mustache lol.
> View attachment 178889
> 
> View attachment 178888


So interesting watching her color change Her coat and her expression are both so adorable!!
Debbie


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## skubler (6 mo ago)

Lola&Mico said:


> So interesting watching her color change Her coat and her expression are both so adorable!!
> Debbie


Thank you! She hasn’t had major, in your face, color changes as they’ve been subtle. I think that’s where it’s always good to take lots of pictures. I think she’s pretty adorable too!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

skubler said:


> I don’t think any genetic testing for color was done. I met both the parents, and breeder stated dad was a clear red. She may have been guessing herself. Maggie as a baby was Black and Tan with white markings. She lost the tan within the first year.
> View attachment 178887
> 
> View attachment 178886





skubler said:


> I don’t think any genetic testing for color was done. I met both the parents, and breeder stated dad was a clear red. She may have been guessing herself. Maggie as a baby was Black and Tan with white markings. She lost the tan within the first year.
> View attachment 178887
> 
> View attachment 178886


Yes, that is typical. Very few B&T’s stay “tan”. Most fade to a creamy white. And just like any other base color, they can have white markings! She is a cutie!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

skubler said:


> And some red always shows in her mustache lol.
> View attachment 178889
> 
> View attachment 178888


That is not true “genetic” red. It is “rusty” discoloring that very often shows up on the muzzles of black (or B&T) Havanese.


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## skubler (6 mo ago)

krandall said:


> That is not true “genetic” red. It is “rusty” discoloring that very often shows up on the muzzles of black (or B&T) Havanese.


I did not know that, how interesting! This is why I like hanging out with smart people 😃


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> That is not true “genetic” red. It is “rusty” discoloring that very often shows up on the muzzles of black (or B&T) Havanese.


Karen - doesn't it also show up on silvers/ is a sign of silver?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> Karen - doesn't it also show up on silvers/ is a sign of silver?


Yes, but then it is generally spread more through the body rather than just on the face like this. There aren’t many black dogs with full mustaches without some of this.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

krandall said:


> That is not true “genetic” red. It is “rusty” discoloring that very often shows up on the muzzles of black (or B&T) Havanese.


I think it’s the prettiest discoloration I’ve seen!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I think it’s the prettiest discoloration I’ve seen!


No doubt that it’s attractive!


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## Havanese Dreams (Jun 6, 2021)

Kiki’s breeder categorized her as a black dog with tan points on the AKC paperwork. There was also an option for Black and Tan, and she has just the tiniest bit of white. I wondered if it should have been Black and Tan with white markings, but I guess it doesn’t really matter. She has silvered a little, and she has that rusty mustache. Her black hair can appear to have a dark auburn tint in certain light.










9 weeks

















Recent photos- front/back

The silvering is in her tail, down her back legs, on her chest, and now showing up here and there on her back. Time will tell if it continues to spread.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Havanese Dreams said:


> Kiki’s breeder categorized her as a black dog with tan points on the AKC paperwork. There was also an option for Black and Tan, and she has just the tiniest bit of white. I wondered if it should have been Black and Tan with white markings, but I guess it doesn’t really matter. She has silvered a little, and she has that rusty mustache. Her black hair can appear to have a dark auburn tint in certain light.
> 
> View attachment 178909
> 
> ...


Yes, genetically, she is a black and tan with white markings. …and you are lucky that she has maintained beautiful rich color in her tan areas!!! 💕. and yeas, she could certainly carry a single copy of the silver gene. We can’t test for that so we’re just guessing on that one!


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## skubler (6 mo ago)

Havanese Dreams said:


> Kiki’s breeder categorized her as a black dog with tan points on the AKC paperwork. There was also an option for Black and Tan, and she has just the tiniest bit of white. I wondered if it should have been Black and Tan with white markings, but I guess it doesn’t really matter. She has silvered a little, and she has that rusty mustache. Her black hair can appear to have a dark auburn tint in certain light.
> 
> View attachment 178909
> 
> ...


Beautiful girl!😍😍


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## joyadevivre (3 mo ago)

beautiful doggie.


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