# New here



## Janhudson (Aug 22, 2012)

Hi all


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Welcome Janice, we need pics


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

Welcome to the forum! 

I am curious how you came to the desicion about getting an island doodle??

Looking forward to pictures and learning more about you and your new baby!!


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

Your puppy is sure to be adorable and fun! Please post some pictures. I am familiar with lots of different kinds of doodles, Labradoodles, Goldendoodles and even Shepadoodles, but have never seen an Island doodle.

I have 3 Havanese and none of them have any health/genetic issues so far, at ages 4, 5, and 8. They are unrelated.
I'm surprised to hear your breeder say that there are so many health issues in this breed.
I'm sure people will be adding their 2 cents.


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## mamacjt (Aug 23, 2011)

With all due respect, there are no animals free of genetic problems. No matter what you breed to what, there are always specific genetic issues to every breed that eventually WILL appear. Cross breeds will pick up the issues of both sets of parents no matter what your breeder might tell you.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Good luck with your new pup, and as others have said, our only forum "requirement" is that you POST PICTURES so we can enjoy too!

While there are some genetic problems within the Havanese breed, (and Silks, at this point are really just a sub-set of Havanese... my Kodi is double registered as Silk and Havanese) there are serious genetic problems in poodles too. I was recently told by a mini poodle breeder that close to 100% of red poodles have some degree of liver disfunction. I don't know if this is accurate, but she is a breeder, and this was her take. There are genetic problems with ALL breeds, and Havanese, in general, are healthier than many if not most other breeds. If you talk to vets, they will tell you that lots of crossbreeds have health problems too.

The GOOD Havanese breeders do very careful testing and screening to breed away from the known health problems and breed for healthy, well-conformed dogs with great companion dispositions. So I think the iDoodle people and the good Havanese breeders have the same end goal, even if they have different opinions on how to go about it.

In any case, I'm sure your little guy will be adorable, and the love of your life! We have lots of other people with part-Havanese, so you DEFINITELY won't be alone, and there is at least one other iDoodle owner. :welcome:


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

I love all dogs, so welcome to the forum. I will enjoy seeing pictures and hearing about your dogs antics.

As for mixed and crossbreeds being healther there is no proof and especially with a new untested breed, it can take many generations before something shows and things are showing up. Goldendoddles are starting to show rates of cancer in line with Goldens and they are not non dander dogs as some breeders claim.

I thought I knew a good bit about genetics of dogs and I do know a good deal about the breed I bred, but there is a lot more science today, things that were thought to be true have been proven and some have proven to be false scientifically. We know that certain colors can have inherited conditions often this is due to the foundation stock, but then their are other things that have nothing to due with color. For instance it was thought that PRA in Lhasa Apso's came from a line of red dogs, this color was a recessive red so many breeders quite that line, today we know that is not the fact, PRA happens when two carriers mate one in four will have PRA and become blind many will carry the gene, yes it happened in the Red but it was not due to color.

The Havanese has been around for a good amount of time, there are many good breeders that are very careful with their line, Havanese are also still a breed that is considered to have few problems when compared to other toy dogs. There is a lot that goes in to producing a good line in any breed of dog, first and for most is the foundation stock, many breeders out there miss that step, there is also the financial ability to scrap stock (find it a pet home) that show genetic problems, some just can not afford or are not willing to do that. Also there is continued education in dog breeding many never took that step. A good breeder has done all of that and yes they can still have a problem but the chances are far less. There are a great many good Havanese breeders out there and it is not fair to say Havanese have many genetic problems.

With new breeds you have to go back past the foundation and look at genetic problems with each breed of dog that went into the making of the breed, you have to look also at mode of inheritance, also it would help if you could study the entire line for each of the dogs used as a foundation, it takes many years of breeding to come up with a "new breed" of dog and many more for genetic problems to be noticed.

Again, welcome to the forum we look forward to seeing and hearing about your dog no matter what breed.


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## Becky Chittenden (Feb 4, 2009)

I haven't read of any other Island mini doodles here, but there could be. I don't really believe there are any less health problems in them than a well bred Havanese from a reputable breeder who does ALL the health screening. All dogs have the potential for health problems. I know of at least one couple doing the idoodle, formerly Havanese, then Silk, did all the testing and on a small occasion would come up with a problem. I think others have explained adequately.
In any case, you are most welcome here and I hope you can post pictures very soon. We all love pictures. Enjoy your puppy


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## dickli (Jun 19, 2012)

I'm the other iDoodle owner here. Of course it's true that all dogs have the potential for health problems. There are breeders of hybrids who will say otherwise, but I wouldn't get a puppy from one of those breeders. However, breeders of all purebred dogs should be aware that (peer-reviewed) research is finding that important immune system genes are becoming less diverse in several breeds that have been studied. It is believed that some of the line breeding done to produce show quality dogs may ultimately result in an array of problems associated with immune system function. It's great that most Havanese are not suffering from health issues, but it's also a good thing when knowledgeable breeders are willing to learn about canine genetics and do the DNA testing that will be helpful for all our pets in the future. Aside from my interest in genetics, the Havanese and the Poodle are two very intelligent, attractive, and portable dogs, and I'm really happy with my puppy. Her name is Zoey. This forum has a lot of really good info and people who are obviously dedicated to their dogs. That's why I'm here.


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## Pixiesmom (Jul 31, 2008)

She's a cutie!


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

I agree, how big is she? 

And back on track, welcome to the forum and you probably need to resize the photos to post them.


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## dickli (Jun 19, 2012)

That did turn out very large. I thought it wouldn't be uploaded if it was too big. She's about 4 lbs and 4 months old


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

dickli said:


> That did turn out very large. I thought it wouldn't be uploaded if it was too big. She's about 4 lbs and 4 months old


Your photo isn't too large... I think Lucile meant that if you (or the other person) couldn't post a photo, it might be because the file was too large. Zoe is adorable!!!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

can someone help me understand why/if there is a DIFFERENCE between the 'idoodle' and a 'good ol' Hava-poo??? It just doesn't make sense to me why the different name...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TilliesMom said:


> can someone help me understand why/if there is a DIFFERENCE between the 'idoodle' and a 'good ol' Hava-poo??? It just doesn't make sense to me why the different name...


I think they are actually crosses between mini poodles and HSD's (whether they are also registered as Havanese or not) I know their original poodle sires are red, but I'm not sure that is a prerequisite... I do know that they are carefully health testing all their stock.

I THINK, that in the end, they want them to be too Hava-poos what Australian Labradoodles (which are health tested and have been bred Labradoodle to Labradoodle for many generations now) are to puppy mill/backyard Labradoodles (which are F1 crosses of any old standard poodle to any old Labrador). A set of dogs that are carefully bred and health tested to create a slightly different kind of dog.

I think they've chosen a completely different name to try to avoid the confusion that exists between the two types of Labradoodles. Austrailian Labradoodles have a very set "type" at this point, while the BYB/Puppy mill variety is all over the place... looking like anything from a Lab to a poodle, some of which shed, others which don't.

If the iDoodle people continue with their project successfully, they will, hopefully, eventually have a uniform type too. But right now, where they are all F1 crosses, there is still going to be a lot of variation from puppy to puppy.

What I don't quite understand is why cross two small, people oriented, smart, low allergy breeds to start with? I understand that the Australian Labradoodle was created so that people with allergies would have a low allergy service dog option. I'm still not sure what the need is for a poodle/HSD cross. Especially when they are starting with easy-care silky coats on one side, and then purposely re-introducing the curly gene on the other side.

But there are other small breeds that people have developed recently too... The Miki here in the U.S. and the Ganaraska in Canada. So these folks aren't the first or the last to decided there is a good reason to invent a new breed by crossing other breeds. If enough people get involved, and there is enough interest, they eventually can become AKC breeds, but it takes a LONG time.


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Karen, I think you're right about them trying to make a distiction. A Hava-poo has a good chance of coming from a puppy mill which we all know are dogs that should not be bred due to no pre screening for genetic issues, temperament or conformation (really crooked, underbite, pigeon toed, cow hocked, of course when bad enough this affects the quality of life of the dog). I second the question for why such a cross, however I would like to learn more about the immunity issues but as of right now I can only think that these mixes are very trendy at the moment, and should only be done by very knowlegeable (sp?) breeders.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Janhudson said:


> Thank you guys for being so nice and helpful.there is a lot of helpful information in the forum.at the end I decided not to get the idoodle puppy.the breeder i had picked was not able to predict the puppie's size,coat quality when grown up.theres also something else that turned me off,no registration papers whatsoever,only a pedigree certificate and the parents health testing info.she was an excellent person to deal with,very knowledgable and understanding.she explained to me that the idoodles were a new breed some breeders were working on and the dogs were only f1 at the moment so there would be some variation in coat and size.for the amount of money i was going to pay for the idoodle i could buy a show prospect havanese puppy,not that I'm overly interested in showing.I will start looking for a reputable Havanese breeder.


I think I would have made the same decision. That's a lot of money to pay for a cross-bred dog. Good luck with your search, and keep posting!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

krandall said:


> I think I would have made the same decision. That's a lot of money to pay for a cross-bred dog. Good luck with your search, and keep posting!


ya, that is a lot of money, especially when you don't know what you will end up with!!! 
I too, hope you continue posting your journey and find a pup that is perfect for your family!
Oh, also about 'papers' the idoodle can't technically HAVE papers since it is in effect, a mixed breed.


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## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

Oh Zoey is adorable! 

PS: Idoodle sounds like she could play music and videos too! LOL


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## El Bueno Habanero (Oct 20, 2009)

dickli said:


> Of course it's true that all dogs have the potential for health problems...However, breeders of all purebred dogs should be aware that (peer-reviewed) research is finding that important immune system genes are becoming less diverse in several breeds that have been studied. It is believed that some of the line breeding done to produce show quality dogs may ultimately result in an array of problems associated with immune system function.


I second that. Last few moths I have been reading a lot about genetics and purebred dogs and although I'm not a negative person overall, I do think that every dog breed will eventually become less and less healthy, to the point that it will become a moral question whether or not to breed them any longer (King Charles Spaniel, Great Danes with join problems, many brachycephalic dogs e.g.). A big debate here in the Netherlands. Some would already be extinct if it wasn't for people helping them reproduce (English bulldog).

Part of the problem as I see it are closed registers (no fresh blood, so at some point the immune system MUST pay the price), and other part the fact that only the best of the best are used for breeding (mostly in the show world...where 'uniformity in looks' is highly pursued, it's again the immune system that will pay the price). The more the inbreeding/linebreeding (linebreeding is in my eyes just a softer form of inbreeding, very thin line between the two in terms of genetics) is used to get rid of undesirable traits or to fix a desirable trait, the more likely it is that individuals will also inherit the same set of genes for the immune system from both parents, and be born with less vigorous immune systems.

In my opinion dogs that are 'less perfect' (but healthy of course, and 'less perfect' as in not perfect for a show) should also have to be respected in terms of their value for the breed. Only breeding best of best (and especially line/inbreeding) makes us throw away diversity of the available genes..which are, to begin with, not that many anyway (starting new breed with X number of dogs). Overuse of popular sires is yet another problem.

If nothing changes in the way people breed the dogs, I do feel that the future of purebred dogs is somber looking.

BtW: Your Zoey is just adorable!!!

EDITED to add: it's a dream that we can produce dogs without any health and genetic problems...in an effort to get rid of one (health) issue, because of the gene pools getting smaller and smaller, the other issues will eventually emerge. Removing affected individuals from breeding populations may decrease the incidence of a particular problem, but smaller gene pools create opportunities for other health problems. 
For example dogs with under/overbites are excluded from breeding programs, and with them we throw those under-bites down the water, but we also throw away diversity of genes. Dogs with not totally correct ear, tail placement for a given breed are being excluded from breeding etc. I personally would rather have a dog with under/over bite (there're extremes where dogs can have difficulty eating so corrective surgery is needed, but in most cases under/overbites are simply aesthetic flaws), then one with auto immune disease.


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## dickli (Jun 19, 2012)

The choices for people looking for a companion dog, and who don't have the experience or stamina to deal with the potential issues a rescue may have, are limited. They can rely on show breeders who are selecting for traits that conform to a standard but may unintentionally co-select for other genetic problems, or they can buy from backyard breeders who may not be health testing at all. 

This may not be for everyone, and that's fine, but I'm happy to be participating in an experiment that may help determine whether outcrossing can make a difference in dla gene diversity. The necessary DNA testing does mean additional cost to the breeder, and I think the price paid for the puppies will be money well spent (it's less than what I've seen advertised for HSDs or many backyard 'designer' dogs). So far (three litters have been born) the iDoodle puppies are consistent in size, and all have silky, slightly wavy coats and fantastic temperaments. I don't know much about registration, but maybe someone can tell me what I will be missing out on without it.


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

Zoey is adorable! This is the first I've heard about an Idoodle, though. I had a red mini poodle who was the love of my life - died of old age. I would get another in a heartbeat! The Idoodle is an interesting concept, though. Do they know whether the temperament is better with small children as opposed to a purebred poodle? The reason I went with Havanese is because we had very young grandchildren at the time. And our Havanese have definitely lived up to their reputation of being good with young children. They get excited when they see the grandchildren - our poodle would have hidden!!!


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## El Bueno Habanero (Oct 20, 2009)

Kathie said:


> The reason I went with Havanese is because we had very young grandchildren at the time. And our Havanese have definitely lived up to their reputation of being good with young children. They get excited when they see the grandchildren - our poodle would have hidden!!!


Good for you, you didn't some how end up with my Fedja lol. Because even though he is havanese he doesn't like small children at all, and also hides when they come over. Gentle children over the age of 7 or so, are ok, but even with them he stays cautious. He would have been a very bad choice for someone with children. Of course he would have learned to adapt to the situation, but I'm 100% sure he is happier in a household without kids lol. After the experience I have I really don't believe (almost) anything I read about dog breeds (except for the looks/and some general characteristics). Their characters are so divers, just like in us people, and it all comes down to an individual dog .


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