# Help! New Member/Feedback on breeders/health testing/guarantees



## traciness (Apr 13, 2009)

Hi all,

I just joined this forum and I'm very excited! I see already that everyone here is very helpful and supportive to one another so I'm thrilled to become a part of it.

I'm a freelancer editor living alone in Brooklyn and am looking to adopt a Havanese puppy soon, and have been in touch with a couple of breeders already. Thanks to this forum I think I've been able to ask the right questions of the breeders, but I'm particularly worried about health testing and confused about what tests are important and what tests aren't. One breeder (Avonlea Havanese: www.avonleahavanese.com), who seems really great judging from her site and e-mails (as well as a few mentions of her on this forum), says she did the following tests: BAER, CERF, patellas, cardiac, and bile acids. She does not do OFA, which, from your forum, seems to be an important one. Does this mean I shouldn't go with this breeder?

Her puppies are due at the end of this month, which means I could have my puppy this summer--perfect timing for me.

Also, does anyone have any general insight on Avonlea Havanese? I asked her about health guarantees and she directed me toward her site: http://www.avonleahavanese.com/AboutAvonlea.html, where she gives a strong opinion on the meaning of health guarantees. I've read that it's best to get a health guarantee, but I'm inclined to lean towards her viewpoint. Thoughts?

I've also been in touch with El Divo Havanese (www.eldivohavanese.com). Anyone know anything about them?

As you can see, as a soon-to-be first-time havanese (and dog) owner, I want to make sure I'm fully informed before I adopt a new little one! Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

OFA is not a test. It's a database for posting the results of all the health tests.

If a person can afford to get the health tests done, but doesn't bother to send them in to OFA for a minimal fee, then be skeptical if the tests were ever done. I really don't understand why people do this or believe this is done. I don't care who it is. * If they are not registering the results, why??? *Are they hiding something? Are they not willing to share the results with other breeders so we can all make informed decisions about the breeding of the relatives?

For example:
If I have a male that I am considering for breeding and his hip results are noted as "good", but he has littermates that have been tested and proven to be dysplastic, but the results are not registered, how will I know there may be a genetic problem involved? If I can see that he has two or three dysplastic littermates, I would have a hard time considering to use him for breeding, even though his own personal results are good. The results are posted so we all have more information to use and make better decisions.

----
Ugh! I meant to quote one portion of my original message and ended up editing by mistake. I think I removed some of the original content, but I don't remember exactly what it said, so forgive the change of info.


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## PepperToast (Oct 27, 2008)

Hi,

I just read over the Avonlea havanese health guarantee. While you might agree with her opinion, you still want, in writing, someone who will back up their 'product' with some sort of guarantee. If you get a dog that at a young age develops expensive heath issues then, in my opinion, you would at least want financial compensation. Not knowing how much your pup might cost... if you pay $1500 for the pup and within the first year of it's life you find out it needs over that amount in health care due to a defect. I don't think that should be your risk and I am sure that the breeder should care deeply about that and take steps to make that right. It keeps them accountable in their breeding practices (which it sounds like she is). 

I did jump in and respond to one of your questions but she never did come out and say if she is offering a guarantee or not. 

Just some thoughts.

Meeka


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## traciness (Apr 13, 2009)

Hi Kimberly, thanks so much for your feedback and clarification. She did say she could provide me with copies of health testing if I wanted, and also said that she performed all the tests (mentioned in my previous post) before age 2, and that "only OFA is required to be performed after age 2, and that is the one test I don't currently do." So, basically, I should ask her why she doesn't send her test results to OFA? And also have her send me the copies of health testing? Would it be helpful to have a vet review the records (goodness knows, I probably wouldn't be able to make sense of them).


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Again, I don't understand why anyone would do the testing (which is expensive) and not send in the results to OFA (which is NOT expensive).

Well, if she has the dogs CERF'd, you will get a very technical looking paper with results that say "normal" or otherwise on each eye. (That should be sent in and reported and end up on OFA). This paper is very thin because it is a triplicate form. Anything that looks like regular paper will be suspicious.

The BAER testing should have at least two pages: one is a graph of the peaks that display on the test, and the other will be the signature of the tester with the results marked as normal or otherwise. This one makes absolutely NO sense (in fact, the least sense of all) to me as to why you would pay for this expensive test and not send it in.

The patellas & cardiac testing could look like anything if they aren't done on the OFA forms, so I can't advise you on how those might look.

The test she is talking about is hips & elbows that can only be registered after two years old. However, she can get the preliminary tests done after they are a year old. Why isn't she doing this one at all? 

In my local area, there is only one vet that I know that could go over the tests with you, and he may not even be able to read the BAER results, so no, I wouldn't think asking your vet will be helpful to you. Most veterinarians aren't into the breeding side or ethical responsibilities behind breeding.


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## Duncan'sMom (Apr 5, 2009)

I live in Boston so I think I looked at every breeder in the Northeast, so yes I have been in contact with both breeders you mentioned.

With Avonlea, she didn't fit into my preferred time frame, so I did not go past that with her.

I did trade emails with El Divo, and he told me he does health test, but does not report to OFA.

I know this wasn't a big help, but I looked at lot of breeders in the Northeast, so let me know if I can help again in any way.


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## traciness (Apr 13, 2009)

Hi Duncan'sMom, thanks for your feedback. I'd love to hear more about which other breeders in the Northeast you recommend, as I'm just beginning this process.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Havtahava said:


> If a person can afford to get the health tests done, but doesn't bother to send them in to OFA for a minimal fee, then be skeptical if the tests were ever done. I really don't understand why people do this or believe this is done. I don't care who it is. * If they are not registering the results, why??? *Are they hiding something? Are they not willing to share the results with other breeders so we can all make informed decisions about the breeding of the relatives?


I hope some of the other breeders like Kathy, Arlene, Elaine, Diane and Janet (Janizona) can weigh in on this comment of mine. I'd like to hear other opinions on this. I know my opinion is pretty strong, but I'm not exactly sure how others feel about this.


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## traciness (Apr 13, 2009)

PepperToast, you make some very good points, and I agree that having something in writing is a good idea.


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## traciness (Apr 13, 2009)

Havtahava said:


> I hope some of the other breeders like Kathy, Arlene, Elaine, Diane and Janet (Janizona) can weigh in on this comment of mine. I'd like to hear other opinions on this. I know my opinion is pretty strong, but I'm not exactly sure how others feel about this.


I'd love some input from breeders as well!


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Traci, I just sent a private message out to a few asking if they would be willing to comment on this, so hopefully you can have more than just my opinion. I know how _*I *_feel about this  , but I'd love to hear how others think as well.


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## traciness (Apr 13, 2009)

Havtahava said:


> Traci, I just sent a private message out to a few asking if they would be willing to comment on this, so hopefully you can have more than just my opinion. I know how _*I *_feel about this  , but I'd love to hear how others think as well.


Thanks, Kimberly! - Traci


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## Janizona (Oct 17, 2006)

My opinion is very similar to Kimberly's. Basically here it is in a nutshell:

If it's not on OFA's site then it's not done. PERIOD!! www.offa.org
Type in part of a name, click "any part of name" and then click search. If you don't see the parents with Hips, Patellas, BAER, CERF AT THE MINIMUM then please look for a breeder that does. Go to www.havanese.org to their breeder directory for a list of breeders that do health test.

As far as a health guarantee - you need it in writing (and signed) that should your puppy have a congenital health problem that you will get your money back. No one can guarantee that your pup won't have a problem, but should a buyer get stuck with paying medical expenses on a puppy that they spent a lot of money on? Nope, that is MY responsibility and it's my responsibility for life to make sure that the puppy is cared for if something comes up or needs to be returned.

Hope this helps.


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

Okay I'm gonna get on my soapbox... 
Please, before you commit to a puppy, get the health testing results from the OFA website. *If they are not posted there then find someone else. If a breeder can afford to spend $200 plus on hip and elbow x-rays, they certainly can afford the $30 recording fee to put them up on OFA for all to see. No excuses!*
Please don't concentrate on a particular color or sex when looking for a dog. Find a breeder you feel comfortable with and get the best match for you and a healthy pup from a breeder with a health guarantee - and I'm not talking about these 48 to 72 hour guarantees... Many reputable breeder offer up to 3 years health guarantee on genetic conditions.

If you can visit the breeder's home and meet their dogs and see where they live, it is worth every minute of time it takes to do so.

Eyes must be tested yearly up to the age of 7. There are breeders that do it once and never go back again. How do they know their dog hasn't developed an eye problem like cataracts two years down the road? If they don't know and they continue to use this dog for breeding, how are they doing the breed justice?

I have heard many times of breeders who say they do all the health testing but don't post to OFA...:suspicious: it only costs a few more dollars to get the results posted and get a certificate in the mail from OFA. OFA is the only place where hips can be evaluated and graded and also elbows. If they aren't sending in their xrays who in the world is evaluating them for these breeders?

I cannot stress the importance of health testing and working with a responsible breeder that has dotted their i's and crossed their t's.
Arlene


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## CacheHavs (Aug 2, 2007)

I myself look at it the same way to. I believe that if you are going to breed a dog that it should have all of its health testing completed and then some. It only cost a few extra dollars to submit them into OFA.
I do A LOT of travling just to get some of these test completed on my dogs, as well as I complete two of the health test on my puppies and submitt them before the puppies ever go to their new homes. Yes it does get expensive, but in my mind to me it is worth it to know that I am breeding healthly, happy Havanese, and to help assure those puppies furture and their homes.

I too do not understand though why a breeder would go through all the expense for getting the health test done and then never send them in. Unless maybe they are up to no good:suspicious:  :suspicious:

I can personally say that I knew of a breeder who would go and get some of these test done on one or two of their dogs and never turn them in so that they could make copies and forge the paperwork on their computer to get away with not spending more money on the health testing on thier other dogs. It was very unfortunate as they would never know if those other dogs had any health issues or not, as well as the unexpected/inexperience buyer may have gotten themselves into, as they would be presented with these forged papers and they didn't know the difference. I can say though to my knowledge, that breeder is no longer breeding

I have also heard of some say they spent enough on the test and that they just wanted to know for themselves (no reason to send them in, in their opinion):frusty:

All I can say is, if it is not shown on the OFA's web site then the chances are they are not health tested.


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## MaddiesMom (Apr 1, 2007)

I'm not a breeder (just a pet owner), but OFA results were *very* important to me when I bought my Havanese. Its so easy to check on your prospective pup's parents and if I couldn't find the results posted, I wouldn't buy the puppy. Its as simple as that. Heck, I not only checked Maddie's parents, but went back several generations. Maybe I'm paranoid after the health problems of my first Havanese bought 11 years ago which had no health testing, but I just wouldn't take the chance now. You have OFA to help you with your research in buying a puppy, why not take advantage of it? Plus, if a breeder says they did the testing but didn't send it to OFA, well personally I'd run. :bolt:


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

> If it's not on OFA's site then it's not done. PERIOD!!


YES!!:whoo:


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## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

Please go to the Delaware Valley Havanese club and contact several breeders. Like the other posters said, make sure you get the results of the tests from OFA.


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## Elaine (Jan 17, 2007)

I do have to back up what the other breeders are saying. If you actually go to the expense of having the tests done than you should be paying the small fee to have them posted in a place where everyone can see them. Anyone can send out papers that can be faked so a new puppy owner thinks the tests were done. If they are posted on the OFA website than the vet would have checked for the microchip or tatoo that is needed to varify it is the correct dog being tested. If they have delt with a vet for years most vets won't check what dog came in unless they have to sign on that piece of paper it is the correct dog. Please do not be fooled by people who will not post their dogs health testing out in the open. They can easily fool you with the paper work, just like they did with their website. I do not know either of the breeders you are talking with but if they don't post than how will breeders down the road have any information on the lines they are breeding so we can make educated decisions on future breeding programs. If you health test and charge around the same for your puppies as other breeders that post the information, what is wrong with this picture. You shouldn't settle for a puppy just because it fits into your timing or what color you think you want. At what our dogs cost you need to be very careful as this is a long term committment. Even with all the health testing in the world we can not know when something will crop up from past lines but we do need the knowledge to move forward.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Way to go Janet! Tell it like it is.


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## Janizona (Oct 17, 2006)

Havtahava said:


> Way to go Janet! Tell it like it is.


LOL Yea I have a problem with that one. ound:


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## Janizona (Oct 17, 2006)

Elaine said:


> I I do not know either of the breeders you are talking with but if they don't post than how will breeders down the road have any information on the lines they are breeding so we can make educated decisions on future breeding programs.
> 
> That is so true - if anyone looks up my dogs on OFA they will find hip dysplasia and cataracts. I make sure to register the bad with the good. That is the only way we can help each other make better breeding decisions in this breed that we all love so much.
> 
> J


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Janizona said:


> Elaine said:
> 
> 
> > I I do not know either of the breeders you are talking with but if they don't post than how will breeders down the road have any information on the lines they are breeding so we can make educated decisions on future breeding programs.
> ...


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## Elaine (Jan 17, 2007)

I am sorry but I took this from her public website regarding her health guarantee and find it very interesting.

The answer will eventually lie within responsible breeders who will keep up with ongoing health research pertaining to the Havanese, learn all they can regarding inherited and congenital diseases, and try to breed the healthiest, happiest dogs they can. This will involve as much health testing as the breeder feels is relevant and and reliable to help make responsible choices in breeding. As new research becomes available, the good breeder will adjust their program to breed away from known risk factors and towards positive health outcomes. Our beloved Havanese deserve no less! 

If she actually believes this way then she should be willing to post the information she has so it will help other breeders not just herself. From this statement she is going against what she doing.


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## murphymoesmamma (Apr 1, 2009)

*Be careful*

Hi Traciness,

I am not a breeder or an extremely experienced dog owner but I would never consider a dog without a health guarantee. Yes, problems can develop, and my guess is once you love them you keep them no matter what health problem occurs,but the guarantee would help to cover drastic medical expenses in case of a problem. I would run, not walk away from anyone who wouldn't give a guarantee. Best of luck with your search.

Holly & Murphy Moe


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

The absolute most important thing is a visit to the breeder. Many talk the talk good but if you visited you might not buy a dog from them. Nothing will show you more about what you are getting than to meet their dogs and how they interact with you.

We have people come from all over the country to visit (after they are approved) before they decide to get one of our puppies and those people always get priority on our list. The typical first visit lasts from 3 to 4 hours but some go much longer and some have even stayed over night.

Guarantees are not talked about enough but you need to see if it looks like the breeder can stand behind it. If they are breeding dogs for a living, I'd guess that they are probably living litter to litter especially if they are living in a mobile home with 35 dogs. 

When we were looking for our first one we went all over the country visiting breeders and there were some we would not buy a dog from regardless of the quality of their dogs. One even scared the puppies back so she could clean up behind them.

A show record or fancy website can look a lot more impressive than what's actually there.


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

I agree 100 percent Tom. Especially about those who are making a living from puppy sales. I know things are tough, but if the breeder has a full-time job, they pay their bills from that job and not counting on any profit from the puppy sales (profit? whazzat??). Most of us responsible breeders are in the hole (negative) and not making money doing this, which is why it is a HOBBY.


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

This thread should get a sticky!!!
Traci, you may not be aware of it, but you are receiving advice from some of the very best Havanese breeders there are. What I would have done for advice like that when I was searching for my first dog!

The advice from this thread is information that could help every single puppy buyer out there, if we could just get it out to people. The information would in turn help the dogs and the breed in the long run.

These are the breeders that really know what they are talking about but even more importantly, they are committed to their breed, their breeding programs and to each and every puppy they produce. These are not people that you write a check to and never hear from again. They will be your willing resource for information and help for the life of your puppy. I don't think people can understand the difference it makes to have a breeder that sincerely cares, until they experience it, I know I didn't.

Best of luck in finding your perfect puppy Traci, you're certainly off to a great start!

Beverly


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

LOVE this thread also, great information. I agree needs sticky.


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## traciness (Apr 13, 2009)

Wow, thanks, everyone for the amazing advice! Not only do I feel like I have a great start in finding my new puppy, but I also feel privileged to be getting advice from people who are not only experts on Havanese, but who really care about the breed--not to mention a built-in support group! I'm so glad I joined the forum. Keeping in mind all of your advice on health testing and health guarantees, etc., I'm going to check out some of the breeders all of you have recommended, and also expand my search to the rest of the country, since it seems that I may have to jump on a plane to find a happy, healthy puppy! Apparently really good breeders are hard to come by.

(p.s. how do you add a sticky to this thread? I added a score (5), but I don't think that's what you guys mean....)


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

One of the admins or moderators has to do the sticky, Traci.

You're definitely right that you have a built-in support group here.


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## Duncan'sMom (Apr 5, 2009)

Hey Traci ~ I wish I could tell you I found a breeder in the Northeast, but I will be hopping on a plane in May to pick up my little guy in Ohio 

I did want a puppy ideally this spring though. If you are more flexible with your timing, I am sure you can find someone closer.

In NY, I found no one, but I did find a helpful breeder in NH (Jubo-Lee Havanese) and several in NJ/Delaware - Check out the Delaware Valley Havanese Club's web site. I have also seen the name of Renaissance Havanese (I think in CT) come up here, but they only have summer and fall pups.

Good Luck!


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## mybella (May 16, 2008)

Traci - I got my Bella from Jubo-lee. She does all the health tests. I am happy to talk to you about her if you want more detail. I do recommend her. Bella is healthy, and has a great personality. She is of course perfect! June is located in NH. I'm not sure where you are located.

Marie


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

I agree with what everyone has said so far-
Another thing to ask a potential breeder is what health issues have come up in the dogs they have bred. Most of the breeders I know (myself included) has had something crop up in a puppy they have bred-please be aware that a health guarantee does NOT mean that something can't come up down the road. It's how that breeder handles the situation that's most important!


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## arla (Feb 22, 2009)

My breeder isn't from the northeast, but she has a lifetime buy back guarantee for any reason. She does all of the testing and registers the results. When there are breeders like this, why would you want to buy from someone who gives no guarantee?


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## hedygs (May 23, 2007)

Duncan'sMom said:


> Hey Traci ~ I wish I could tell you I found a breeder in the Northeast, but I will be hopping on a plane in May to pick up my little guy in Ohio
> 
> I did want a puppy ideally this spring though. If you are more flexible with your timing, I am sure you can find someone closer.
> 
> ...


Duncan's Mom I thought that backdrop looked familiar. Is that little Ramone in your avatar?

I know that petaluna is getting a pup from your breeder as well (if I guessed correctly).


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## Duncan'sMom (Apr 5, 2009)

Yes it is Ramone - which we plan to change to Duncan! Our breeder uses such a unique backdrop - every time I see a post from Petaluna, I have to look twice since it looks like mine.


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## hedygs (May 23, 2007)

Duncan'sMom said:


> Yes it is Ramone - which we plan to change to Duncan! Our breeder uses such a unique backdrop - every time I see a post from Petaluna, I have to look twice since it looks like mine.


LOL! Yes you made me look twice and check who was posting as well.  Sorry for getting off track. I'm glad you are happy with your breeder. I know Diane thinks she is top notch as well.


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

Duncan's mom, OMG! Hedy was drooling over Ramone, too!  What date are you getting him? (I met him, BTW, he's a doll. Was very sleepy at the time!) He's a few weeks younger than Gabriela (who I'm re-naming Violet), we're getting her mother's day weekend at 11 1/2 weeks. I don't know if you've been to visit, but she's got a very nice setup for the dogs, they have their own two rooms in the house, she's fastidiously clean, and the back yard and deck are huge. I'm going to do a gravel potty area as she's done, though on a much smaller scale. She's also really devoted to caring for and socializing each puppy, teaching them the potty place, etc. I was pretty impressed. Also, Ramone's mom, Vada, is a sweetheart and loves laps and belly rubs, she'll be your instant friend. All the adults we met were wonderful dogs.


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## Duncan'sMom (Apr 5, 2009)

Petaluna said:


> Duncan's mom, OMG! Hedy was drooling over Ramone, too!  What date are you getting him? (I met him, BTW, he's a doll. Was very sleepy at the time!) He's a few weeks younger than Gabriela (who I'm re-naming Violet), we're getting her mother's day weekend at 11 1/2 weeks. I don't know if you've been to visit, but she's got a very nice setup for the dogs, they have their own two rooms in the house, she's fastidiously clean, and the back yard and deck are huge. I'm going to do a gravel potty area as she's done, though on a much smaller scale. She's also really devoted to caring for and socializing each puppy, teaching them the potty place, etc. I was pretty impressed. Also, Ramone's mom, Vada, is a sweetheart and loves laps and belly rubs, she'll be your instant friend. All the adults we met were wonderful dogs.


Now I responded to your other post before I saw this one! I'm getting him May 14, so he'll be just shy of 10 weeks. I'm flying in from Boston and back all in one day, so I won't actually get to go to their house. I was nervous about not seeing the parents and the house, but I read your description after your visit and it made me feel a lot better. She has been so amazing on the phone! I spoke to a few breeders, and emailed with so many more, and she was the first one that I just knew it was a great match.


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