# Poop issue...HELP!



## Ricco'sMommy

Well my darling Ricco is "potty broke" but not at the same time. Im trying to not have to use a kennel during the day {I cant walk him in the snow with a 4 month old} and trying puppy pads. No matter what I do he poos in my floor. Even after hes been out and poos out side he comes in, waits 5 min, runs off to a hidden spot and...POOP. 

Ive tried putting poo ON the pads, telling him bad dog and NO in stern voice, newspaper spanks, water bottles.....pretty much every thing the "experts" tell you to do. Still he poops on my floors. 

Now that the youngest is getting ready to be mobile I cant have random poop lying around. So during the day and at bed time Ricco has to be locked up  I dislike the hours of alone time he ends up having. He has bad issues with me leaving which only add to his potty issues. 

He tells me when he has to g. I have the guys take him out {no LESS than 10 min...its cold after all} and he always goes both....YET here I am finding poop. Any ideas? Id love for him to use the pads during the day so he can at least have more than 8 hours of family time.


----------



## krandall

Ricco'sMommy said:


> Well my darling Ricco is "potty broke" but not at the same time. Im trying to not have to use a kennel during the day {I cant walk him in the snow with a 4 month old} and trying puppy pads. No matter what I do he poos in my floor. Even after hes been out and poos out side he comes in, waits 5 min, runs off to a hidden spot and...POOP.
> 
> Ive tried putting poo ON the pads, telling him bad dog and NO in stern voice, newspaper spanks, water bottles.....pretty much every thing the "experts" tell you to do. Still he poops on my floors.
> 
> Now that the youngest is getting ready to be mobile I cant have random poop lying around. So during the day and at bed time Ricco has to be locked up  I dislike the hours of alone time he ends up having. He has bad issues with me leaving which only add to his potty issues.
> 
> He tells me when he has to g. I have the guys take him out {no LESS than 10 min...its cold after all} and he always goes both....YET here I am finding poop. Any ideas? Id love for him to use the pads during the day so he can at least have more than 8 hours of family time.


Saying "no, stern voice, spanking and spraying with water bottles are ALL unproductive, as you have learned. The fact of the matter is, if he's pooping in inappropriate places, he is NOT potty trained yet. All punishment does is teach a dog to hide from you when he needs to eliminate. &#8230;So you find "surprises" in odd places.

This is a matter for training, not punishment. I KNOW it must be hard with small humans that you a re dealing with at the same time&#8230; I don't envy you! I wouldn't have tried to do both at the same time&#8230; Kids are WAY more work! 

But the right answer is to confine him to a space that is small enough that he can be successful 95% of the time. He should ONLY be allowed out when you can give him 100% EYES ON supervision to head off accidents. Every time you let him poop in an inappropriate place, you are setting that habit in his furry little brain more firmly. In the long run, you will be able to give him his freedom sooner if you can get him thoroughly trained. (Just think how long it is before children can be left unsupervised for even short periods, and how long they wear diapers! Dogs are really MUCH faster to get this! )

To teach him to use the pee pads, if that is the potty solution you want to use, (it wouldn't be my choice&#8230; I'd prefer either a litter box or UgoDog type frame for a pee pad) set him up with his crate or bed in one side of a folded down ex-pen, and the potty option in the other side. (If you use pee pads, you can cover the whole area with them, and remove them over time, one at a time, until he learns to go on just one. You want to set him up so he CAN'T make a mistake.

PLEASE don't punish your poor little dog. If he knew better, he'd DO better!


----------



## Gibbs Mom and Dad

Ricco'sMommy said:


> Well my darling Ricco is "potty broke" but not at the same time. Im trying to not have to use a kennel during the day {I cant walk him in the snow with a 4 month old} and trying puppy pads. No matter what I do he poos in my floor. Even after hes been out and poos out side he comes in, waits 5 min, runs off to a hidden spot and...POOP.
> 
> Ive tried putting poo ON the pads, telling him bad dog and NO in stern voice, newspaper spanks, water bottles.....pretty much every thing the "experts" tell you to do. Still he poops on my floors.
> 
> Now that the youngest is getting ready to be mobile I cant have random poop lying around. So during the day and at bed time Ricco has to be locked up  I dislike the hours of alone time he ends up having. He has bad issues with me leaving which only add to his potty issues.
> 
> He tells me when he has to g. I have the guys take him out {no LESS than 10 min...its cold after all} and he always goes both....YET here I am finding poop. Any ideas? Id love for him to use the pads during the day so he can at least have more than 8 hours of family time.


I would like to thank you for coming to the forum and asking for help, and also applaud you for doing research in your attempt to find the right training methods. However, like all advice we find, it's hard to know which experts we should trust.

Current research indicates that reprimanding a dog for accidents in the house worsens the problem. At best, dogs have an attention span that lasts for a few seconds. Therefore, unless you are actually witnessing him poop, he has no idea why he is being punished or scolded. Also, if you are fortunate enough to witness him pooping in the house, the best response would be to immediately pick him up and take him outside.

The best house breaking methods rely on the dogs natural instincts and schedule. Dogs are taught at a young age from their mother not to soil where they eat and sleep, and their digestive systems tend to be remarkably regular. Therefore, you should be able to monitor and know how long it takes him to poop after he eats.

The above paragraph is why Krandall's suggestion of confinement when your dog cannot be supervised as the best way to house break him. Your dog will not want to defecate in the Pen he sleeps in. General guidelines:

1. Regular feeding - Same times each day.
2. Take him out to poop after he eats.
3. Confine him when you can't keep a constant watch on him.
4. When not confined, keep "eyes on" at all times. If he meander and sniffs like he's searching for a spot, take him out.
5. Have big "Puppy Party" filled with praise and treats everytime he goes outside.


----------



## Gibbs Mom and Dad

One comment from above, and subject to some disagreement from the most respected members of this forum, I do think it is OK give your dog a firm "No" if you actually see him in the act of relieving himself inside, as long as you follow it up by immediately taking him outside and praising him for going outside.

Here are a couple good links.

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/housebreaking.htm

http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...ciples-of-housebreaking-a-dog-of-any-age.aspx

http://healthypets.mercola.com/site.../05/19/how-to-housebreak-your-dog-part-2.aspx


----------



## krandall

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> One comment from above, and subject to some disagreement from the most respected members of this forum, I do think it is OK give your dog a firm "No" if you actually see him in the act of relieving himself inside, as long as you follow it up by immediately taking him outside and praising him for going outside.


If you catch them IN THE ACT, it might, possibly help. The problem is you can't be absolutely sure WHAT the pup's take-away message will be&#8230;

"Don't poop in the house"?
"Don't poop here"?
"Don't poop in front of a person"? (that one can lead to BIG problems!!!)

That's why, unless your timing and CONSISTENCY is impeccable, reward-based training, good management (confinement and supervision) and ignoring mistakes is less likely to cause unwanted "fallout" behaviors.

The other problem is that most puppies (like most kids! ) here "no!" so many times that it becomes totally meaningless. (like Gary Larson's "what the dog hears" cartoon)


----------



## Gibbs Mom and Dad

krandall said:


> If you catch them IN THE ACT, it might, possibly help. The problem is you can't be absolutely sure WHAT the pup's take-away message will be&#8230;
> 
> "Don't poop in the house"?
> "Don't poop here"?
> "Don't poop in front of a person"? (that one can lead to BIG problems!!!)
> 
> That's why, unless your timing and CONSISTENCY is impeccable, reward-based training, good management (confinement and supervision) and ignoring mistakes is less likely to cause unwanted "fallout" behaviors.
> 
> The other problem is that most puppies (like most kids! ) here "no!" so many times that it becomes totally meaningless. (like Gary Larson's "what the dog hears" cartoon)


:thumb:

you were certainly one of those I had in mind when I said

"subject to some disagreement from the most respected members of this forum" :hug:


----------



## MarinaGirl

I don't believe most people can yell or say NO to their dog without being negative or emotional; therefore, I think it's a word that should be used very sparingly or not at all.


----------



## krandall

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> :thumb:
> 
> you were certainly one of those I had in mind when I said
> 
> "subject to some disagreement from the most respected members of this forum" :hug:


Well, I'm not TOTALLY in disagreement. But _I_ don't have the timing or consistency to effectively use +P training methods, and I doubt many people do. (I heard Ian Dunbar speak last year, and he said the same thing&#8230; That you'd have to be a lot better, more experienced trainer than he is to use +P effectively ) _*I'm*_ not touching that one! :laugh:


----------



## Ricco'sMommy

Thank you all! Ive been having net issues {ATT uverse was out for a bit here} so Im late getting here.

I wondered if hes pooping because he cant see me? Ricco has very bad abandonment issues and only poops when hes not in eye sight of me or Daddy. 

And yes Im VERY negative when I say no  I cant help it, it drives me crazy to have to clean poop right after he goes out. He was out for 15 min, in the snow with my son, pooped 2 times {hes odd, has to poop in 15 spots in the yard lol} then came in and didnt realize I was in the potty....yep pooped in the corner. 

Ive blocked off his main spots of hidden poo sites. I try not to be negative with him. Hes had a rough start Im sure so negative isnt helping. Im just at wits end with this. He does so well telling me when he has to go. He ALWAYS comes to Mommy and pats me to death . So I cant understand why he runs off to poo in the house. 

I really HATE the pads too. With a baby soon to be mobile I see bad things with that. Cant do litter box...my retard cats would take that over {the black devil I own is Ricco's best friend but hes the DEVIL lol} 

Other than the abandonment issues and this poop thing the darn dog is PERFECT! Never takes treats hard,never eats pampers, never gets into trash...LOVES his baby. He even refuses to take a treat from Quinn {the baby brother}. 

Arrgggg....Im just so not doing this right. I really hope this winter crap goes away soon so I can take Ricco and Quinn out side!


----------



## krandall

Ricco'sMommy said:


> Thank you all! Ive been having net issues {ATT uverse was out for a bit here} so Im late getting here.
> 
> I wondered if hes pooping because he cant see me? Ricco has very bad abandonment issues and only poops when hes not in eye sight of me or Daddy.
> 
> And yes Im VERY negative when I say no  I cant help it, it drives me crazy to have to clean poop right after he goes out. He was out for 15 min, in the snow with my son, pooped 2 times {hes odd, has to poop in 15 spots in the yard lol} then came in and didnt realize I was in the potty....yep pooped in the corner.
> 
> Ive blocked off his main spots of hidden poo sites. I try not to be negative with him. Hes had a rough start Im sure so negative isnt helping. Im just at wits end with this. He does so well telling me when he has to go. He ALWAYS comes to Mommy and pats me to death . So I cant understand why he runs off to poo in the house.
> 
> I really HATE the pads too. With a baby soon to be mobile I see bad things with that. Cant do litter box...my retard cats would take that over {the black devil I own is Ricco's best friend but hes the DEVIL lol}
> 
> Other than the abandonment issues and this poop thing the darn dog is PERFECT! Never takes treats hard,never eats pampers, never gets into trash...LOVES his baby. He even refuses to take a treat from Quinn {the baby brother}.
> 
> Arrgggg....Im just so not doing this right. I really hope this winter crap goes away soon so I can take Ricco and Quinn out side!


Yeah, he's pooping where you can't see him because he's learned that when you see poop, bad things happen. You REALLY need to confine him when you can't watch him every moment, and REALLY try to control the negative reaction and emphasize positive reinforcement.

This is important with a puppy, but even MORE important with a rescue that you a re trying to rehab. I know it's hard, especially when you're also chasing HUMAN babies around, but it will REALLY help you in the long run if you can make yourself not react negatively.


----------



## Ricco'sMommy

krandall said:


> Yeah, he's pooping where you can't see him because he's learned that when you see poop, bad things happen. You REALLY need to confine him when you can't watch him every moment, and REALLY try to control the negative reaction and emphasize positive reinforcement.
> 
> This is important with a puppy, but even MORE important with a rescue that you a re trying to rehab. I know it's hard, especially when you're also chasing HUMAN babies around, but it will REALLY help you in the long run if you can make yourself not react negatively.


I hate to crate him all day but your right. Me getting upset doesnt help him learn. Hes under a year and a half old. Our vet said with his "left alone" issues the kennel may actually teach him that we are here and wont leave him like his last owners did.

Pretty much the vet said ignore the bad behavior of yipping and chewing the kennel, reward good by waiting 15 min of silence and giving a treat and a good boy. He also said this may curb the poop issues IF they are related to being left alone. If Ricco CANT poop when alone {in the kennel} he will be forced to go out side when WE take him. So hopefully in time we can break both issues. We also put his leash attached to the back door. So if he has an accident he gets a time out near the door where he should go to to potty. No bad dog or negativeness. Just Show him the poo, show him back door and tie him for 10 min. Kinda like kids time out chair lol.

This poor little guy must have been left alone for a long time. He craves attention and love. Breaks my heart to say no out time  Im glad we adopted him, issues and all. Just going to take Mommy having more patience lol!


----------



## Lalla

krandall said:


> Saying "no, stern voice, spanking and spraying with water bottles are ALL unproductive, as you have learned&#8230;..
> 
> PLEASE don't punish your poor little dog. If he knew better, he'd DO better!


Oh, how I so agree with Karen; PLEASE don't take a newspaper to your boy, it's really not going to work, as Karen has already said. All of her advice is so sound.


----------



## Gibbs Mom and Dad

Having read your further replies, I now think even the use of the word "No" will be counter productive. I agree that Ricco has learned to associate negative consequences and disapproval to poop, and that is why he's doing it when you're not around.

I am befuddled as to why he will poop outside, and then come inside and poop again. Does this happen in relatively a short time (60 minutes) or after a while inside?

Are you immediately praising and rewarding him when he poops outside with GOOD POOP!!! + treats? He needs to see how joyful you become and feel good about pooping outside.

Once he starts hearing "GOOD POOP" and getting rewards, you will be able to take him outside and joyfully say - "Go Poop". Gibbs made the most progress when I started to cue "Go Potty" and "Go Poop" when I took him outside. I'd open the door with a "Let's go Poop/Potty. I'd wait until he started to go and say "Good Potty/Poop", and as soon as he finished immediately say "Good Boy" "Good Potty/Poop" and give him a treat. The neighbors just laughed and smiled, but I don't embarrass easily.


Like others have said, I think it's time to go back to the basics.

1. Start by taking him out every hour (or 30 minutes if he's pooping before an hour).
2. Make pooping outside a positive experience with immediate praise and rewards.
3. Ignore mistakes in the house.
4. Watch him like a hawk when he's not confined. As soon as you see signs that he may poop, cheerfully say "Let's go outside" and pick him up.
5. Confine him to an Ex-Pen when you can't watch him.


Since he seems to suffer some separation anxiety, can you set up the Ex Pen in a main are of the house where he will still know you're around?

Play crate-training games with him - Maybe others can post a link


----------



## Lalla

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> &#8230;.
> 
> Play crate-training games with him - Maybe others can post a link


Check out Susan Garrett's "Crate Games" DVD:
Amazon.com: Susan Garrett's Crate Games for Self-Control and Motivation: Susan Garrett: Movies & TV

It's really good - lots of positive stuff to focus on, and fun too.


----------



## krandall

Ricco'sMommy said:


> I hate to crate him all day but your right. Me getting upset doesnt help him learn. Hes under a year and a half old. Our vet said with his "left alone" issues the kennel may actually teach him that we are here and wont leave him like his last owners did.
> 
> Pretty much the vet said ignore the bad behavior of yipping and chewing the kennel, reward good by waiting 15 min of silence and giving a treat and a good boy. He also said this may curb the poop issues IF they are related to being left alone. If Ricco CANT poop when alone {in the kennel} he will be forced to go out side when WE take him. So hopefully in time we can break both issues.


Great! You have a smart vet!



Ricco'sMommy said:


> We also put his leash attached to the back door. So if he has an accident he gets a time out near the door where he should go to to potty. No bad dog or negativeness. Just Show him the poo, show him back door and tie him for 10 min. Kinda like kids time out chair lol.


This is a BAD idea. PLEASE don't do this!!! Showing him the poop and then punishing him (by tying him to the door) teaches him NOTHING!!! First, if you don't catch him in the act, he CANNOT make any connection between what you are doing to him and what he did earlier. NO DOG is capable of this type of reasoning. Second, He won't make ANY connection between being tied to the door and that being "near" where he "should have gone". YOu are expecting him to have reasoning skills that would not be possible even if you were dealing with a human who didn't speak your language. It's absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for a dog to learn that way.

I really, REALLY think you need to find a local, positive based trainer to come into your home and help you with this. You HAVE to set things up so he CAN'T have accidents for you to find later. Every time you let him have an accident, you a re making it harder and harder to train him. By feeling sorry for him, and not confining him, you are making it so much harder to train him&#8230; and at the same time, you are punishing him for behavior that he hasn't learned the "right" answer to.

Sorry if I sound very vehement about this. I KNOW you love Ricco and are trying to do the right thing. But this is SO wrong, and I feel SO bad for him. You are trying, I know. But you REALLY need help.


----------



## Alcibides

So many poops (outside and immediately in). I wonder if a change in diet might help. Is he on kibble or wet food? Is there any ingredient that might be making him poop more frequently than he can control? Might be worth a talk with your vet. Did you mention Ricco's age? If he's less than a year I wanted to suggest that you take heart; at about a year, Lucky was suddenly pretty much house broken and at 2, he's exemplary. I remember the trauma you're enduring and sometimes have to ask myself how he got to be so good. I think in the end, they train themselves (or have such desire to be good dogs that they put everything you've taught them in action). Good luck with it all and I agree with the suggestions for positive reinforcement over punitive "no"s-good for a sensitive little Hav and good modeling for a developing child.


----------



## Ricco'sMommy

The time outs are ONLY if hes caught in the act. I didnt want to punish for no reason so when hes caught then he gets the time out spot. 

I decided today to watch my son walk Ricco...well one HUGE issue is the giant monster cat that isnt mine. He sort of sneaks up to the fence line and scares Ricco. he barks at him and all sense of potty duty is gone. Im not real sure how to fix this since 1, said cat isnt mine and 2 we assume hes a stray and we know he comes to know one. 

Another fail on my part is lack of time. At the moment theres no time frame. Kids have been out of school due to weather {-9 degrees here...insane} SO Ricco hasnt been in kennel much. We have however been taking him out once an hour since some ones home to do so during the day.

A lot of my issue with this is we can not afford a trainer to teach us things. I have to rely on our vet and here for advice. Im also used to a large food motivated dog lol....boxers and food are hand in hand. Ricco isnt motivated by food. SOme how the weirdo is motivated my play. If he goes out and poops he comes in, runs at me at full speed and boing off my knees. I pick him up {yes even covered in snow and mud} and hug him and tell him "OH MY GOOD BABY!!!" Now removing the NO did help yesterday....but he pooped out side 2x, came right back in and had a tiny poop on the floor ...BUT he did so in front of me! Now Im wondering if hes just excited pooping 

Im taking all these ideas. One at a time and making them part of our daily actions with Ricco. I removed pee pads...he decided they were for eating not peeing lol. Im going to not be such a softie and do kennel time on a better time frame as well. 

I am trying. very hard. Getting used to a rescue is harder than I expected. And getting used to a puppy who has attachment issues {esp. when you cry when HE cries} is rough with all we have on our plate. BUT! Ricco is our baby. If I have to clean up poo till hes old and crazy so be it. He wont be left alone ever again or left to sit in a cage. We had our Bobb for close to 12 years, senile and leaky old man was one of a kind. I hope Ricco has at least that many years with us <3


----------



## Lalla

krandall said:


> This is a BAD idea. PLEASE don't do this!!! Showing him the poop and then punishing him (by tying him to the door) teaches him NOTHING!!! First, if you don't catch him in the act, he CANNOT make any connection between what you are doing to him and what he did earlier. NO DOG is capable of this type of reasoning. Second, He won't make ANY connection between being tied to the door and that being "near" where he "should have gone". YOu are expecting him to have reasoning skills that would not be possible even if you were dealing with a human who didn't speak your language. It's absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for a dog to learn that way.
> 
> I really, REALLY think you need to find a local, positive based trainer to come into your home and help you with this. You HAVE to set things up so he CAN'T have accidents for you to find later. Every time you let him have an accident, you a re making it harder and harder to train him. By feeling sorry for him, and not confining him, you are making it so much harder to train him&#8230; and at the same time, you are punishing him for behavior that he hasn't learned the "right" answer to.
> 
> Sorry if I sound very vehement about this. I KNOW you love Ricco and are trying to do the right thing. But this is SO wrong, and I feel SO bad for him. You are trying, I know. But you REALLY need help.


Please, RiccosMommy, know that we are all understanding of your difficulties, and realise that you are trying incredibly hard. But please do take Karen's words to heart - she is wise and experienced, as are many others on this site. A huge amount is now known about how animals learn, what they are and are not capable of, and how we, as a species with cognitive ability that is able to recognise and understand more, must use that ability to acquire the knowledge to do the right things by the animals who rely on us for so much. Going on gut feelings, or "this is what I've always done" or thrashing about in the dark and hoping for the best is so sad when there are things to learn that can change our relationship with our dogs so hugely for the better. We are all so often so stuck on repeating a method or behaviour that just doesn't work, not just in how we bring up our dogs or children, but in all aspects of our lives. The trick is to get off these little hamster wheels where we just go around in circles, and simply rethink. It is what Cognitive Behaviour Therapy is all about, and why it works. We don't HAVE to think the way we've always thought if it doesn't work!! We can reinvent ourselves and how we do things. Trainers who have always used punishment and negativity can actually give up those strategies and learn to use positive reinforcement. If you wanted to read a really interesting dog training book I would highly recommend "The Thinking Dog" by Gail Tamases Fisher, not just for the vast amount of information on training dogs, but for her personal epiphany and 'cross-over' from a traditional method to clicker training and a whole new attitude. It's a touching and illuminating and honest story, of recognition and admitting to being wrong, and having the courage to listen and learn. It would be less expensive than getting a trainer, and teach you much that, I am certain, would help you and excite you when you learn that your puppy is never going to grasp human concepts beyond the capacity of his canine abilities, but that those capabilities are far greater, in different ways, than you have probably even dreamt of.


----------



## krandall

Ricco'sMommy said:


> The time outs are ONLY if hes caught in the act. I didnt want to punish for no reason so when hes caught then he gets the time out spot.


I am glad to hear that you are so invested in Ricco&#8230; that's wonderful!

I'm alos glad to hear that you a re not punishing him when you don't see it happen&#8230; also good.

But the "punishment" part is still all wrong. He learns NOTHING from you showing it to him, nor can he understand that he's tied to the door because he should have gone outside rather than on the floor.

Finally, even if punishment is swift and given in a way that the dog can make the connection, it STILL doesn't doesn't work anywhere near as well as praise/reward (and play is a GREAT reward&#8230; it doesn't need to be food!) for getting it right whiles simply ignoring getting it wrong and cleaning it up thoroughly. AND the second approach doesn't cause all kinds of unwanted fall-out the way punishment does.

As far as the cat is concerned, if it is truly a stray, there is an easy answer. Talk to your local animal control. I would be very surprised if they don't have Havahart (live, humane) traps that you can borrow. That and a can of tuna fish, and you have a cat in a box that you can hand over to the local authorities.


----------



## krandall

Ricco'sMommy said:


> SOme how the weirdo is motivated my play. If he goes out and poops he comes in, runs at me at full speed and boing off my knees. I pick him up {yes even covered in snow and mud} and hug him and tell him "OH MY GOOD BABY!!!"


While this is cute, and it is certainly not HURTING Ricco, I want you to start understanding how dogs think better. They attach significance to the LAST thing they do before the reward. So while what you are MEANING to reinforce by picking him up and loving on him after he comes in from potting, is the fact that he potted outside, that is SO far out of his furry little mind by the time you pick him up. What you are REALLY reinforcing at that point is the fact that he just slammed you in the legs. Is that REALLY what you want to encourage? I doubt you would have let your boxer do this, or he would have knocked you over!

That is already WAY too late to positively reinforce the potting. If he doesn't respond much to food rewards, have whoever takes him outside also bring along a favorite squeaky toy (on a string, so he can't run away with it!) and play, play, play, AS SOON as he finishes potting.

It's lovely that he wants to greet you when he comes back in, but teach him to sit in front of you politely and THEN pick him up and love on him. If he tries to jump on you, turn away and ignore him until all 4 feet are on the floor. THEN you can give him all the love you want!

&#8230;And about the food, there are vanishingly few dogs who can't be enticed to enjoy food treats&#8230; it's a matter of finding the right one. Have you tried little bits of cheese? Or small cubes of whatever meat you cooked for supper last night? An easy one (especially with a baby in the house!) that many dogs go NUTS for is to freeze a jar of pureed meat baby food. then just take the cap of and let him have a few licks as a reward. That would be another easy one for your kids to handle when they are pottying him too.



Ricco'sMommy said:


> Now removing the NO did help yesterday....but he pooped out side 2x, came right back in and had a tiny poop on the floor ...BUT he did so in front of me! Now Im wondering if hes just excited pooping


I agree with the person that suggested that you talk to the vet about this&#8230; the frequency of his poops, and the fact that he almost "leaks" small amounts when he gets in sounds abnormal. It is possible that a change in food might help. I'm wondering if his food has a lot of "fillers", especially corn? (but other grains can cause problems too, depending on the dog)

And one other thought&#8230; It sounds like you're not the one who takes him out often, and that it may be your kids. No problem here EXCEPT that kids are often impatient. Is there a possibility that your kids aren't waiting long enough to make sure he has COMPLETELY emptied himself before coming in. I know that Kodi sometimes goes a bit, then moves a little way and finishes. If the kids think he is done after he goes SOME, they may not realize that he's not finished before they bring him in.


----------



## Lalla

krandall said:


> While this is cute, and it is certainly not HURTING Ricco, I want you to start understanding how dogs think better. They attach significance to the LAST thing they do before the reward. So while what you are MEANING to reinforce by picking him up and loving on him after he comes in from pottying, that is SO far out of his furry little mind by the time you pick him up. What you are REALLY reinforcing at that point is the fact that he just slammed you in the legs. Is that REALLY what you want to encourage? I doubt you would have let your boxer do this, or he would have knocked you over!
> 
> That is already WAY too late to positively reinforce the potting. If he doesn't respond much to food rewards, have whoever takes him outside also bring along a favorite squeaky toy (on a string, so he can't run away with it!) and play, play, play, AS SOON as he finishes potting.
> 
> It's lovely that he wants to greet you wham he comes back in, but teach him to sit in front of you politely and THEN pick him up and love on him. If he tries to jump on you, turn away and ignore him until all 4 feet are on the floor. THEN you can give him all the love you want!
> 
> &#8230;And about the food, there are vanishingly few dogs who can't be enticed to enjoy food treats&#8230; it's a matter of finding the right one. Have you tried little bits of cheese? Or small cubes of whatever meat you cooked for supper last night? And easy one (especially with a baby in the house!) that many dogs go NUTS for is to freeze a jar of pureed meat baby food. then just take the cap of and let him have a few licks as a reward. That would be another easy one for your kids to handle when they are pottying him too.
> 
> I agree with the person that suggested that you talk to the vet about this&#8230; the frequency of his poops, and the fact that he almost "leaks" small amounts when he gets in sounds abnormal. It is possible that a change in food might help. I'm wondering if his food has a lot of "fillers", especially corn? (but other groans can cause problems too, depending on the dog)
> 
> And one other thought&#8230; It sounds like you're not the one who takes him out often, and that it may be your kids. No problem here EXCEPT that kids are often impatient. IS there a possibility that your kids aren't waiting long enough to make sure he has COMPLETELY emptied himself before coming in. I know that Kodi sometimes goes a bit, then moves a little way and finished. If the kids think he is done after the goes SOME, they may more realize that he's not finished before they bring him in.


As ever, ! am so in agreement with Karen; all SUCH sensible advice, Ricco'smommy!!! It's very hard for us humans to think how a dog thinks, but it's part of our responsibility to our dogs to do just that, or at least to learn as much as we possibly can about how they think. Can you imagine how unbearable children would be if we encouraged them to do everything they wanted to do, with no guidance, or worse, punishment that they just didn't get? You obviously know FAR more about kids than I do - almost everyone does, I don't have any except for one beloved step-daughter, but she didn't live with us till she was 14, so I missed the early training years. We have to learn, I guess, all sorts of stuff to make us good parents. We have to do exactly the same to be good dog owners, and it's a different set of parameters, a different neurological make up that we are dealing with, and there's no reciprocal human language to fall back on. It's another whole language to learn, and incredibly exciting as well as being incredibly necessary. We need new vocabulary, new understanding and then we'll come to a place where we really can communicate with our dogs; their joy at being understood, and at understanding us is SO hugely much more rewarding than, however well-meaning, the cuddles and anthropomorphism that are so easy to find satisfying in an easy sort of way. Real communication is satisfying in a profound way. We've all done the getting it wrong - you are SO going to enjoy getting it right, if you really, really listen to some fantastic advice from the kind, clever, knowledgeable and caring people on this forum.

Re the pooing-delay; both my dogs do that - they'll poo a bit, then move around a bit, then finish the job; not always, but often. I'd be interested to know what you are feeding Ricco, as Karen queries. I've recently changed what I feed and completely changed the poo-ing pattern and quantity/quality with my two dogs - goodness we do have such power over their little minds and bodies, don't we! SO important to do the best by THEM, not by satisfying ourselves that we are just great, and that besotted-ness is enough. Besotted-ness is what we all know we feel, but we need to do better than that, just as with a child, to nurture a well-rounded, happy member of our family, human, canine, or any other kind of animal. It's a thrilling journey.


----------



## davetgabby

I think it's time to consider surrendering him. You have too much on your plate.


----------



## dianaplo

I have a Cavalier rescue in addition to my hav pup. I have had her for 2 years and she was probably 4 when I got her but it's really just a guess. She had spent her life in a cage in a garage having puppies. She is now housebroken but it was a much longer process than with any puppy I ever had.
She absolutely would not crate. I started her in a small expen. When she had proven to be housetrained in that I made it bigger. Later I increased her space to my small family room....later she was confined to the family room and kitchen. Very slowly she earned more free space. I spent most of my day near her.
As time went on...I let her go throughout the house with me on leash. After many months we started having special evenings in the living room. She still loves that time of day with the special toys and bigger sofa! Doggie gates were the best investment I ever made. We never used a pee pad.
I discovered she would sneak into the bathrooms and pee on bathmats so I keep those picked up.
Now I have the puppy so we are once again spending most of our time in one small part of the house but I think its better to take it slow. 
My almost 6 month old pup SEEMS housebroken but I know that if I give him too much freedom we may develop habits that will be hard to break.
Anyway that is my experience. I hope it helps. I'm sure I could have maybe done something differently but I think it just takes time and consistency.


----------



## Ricco'sMommy

davetgabby said:


> I think it's time to consider surrendering him. You have too much on your plate.


I would never give Ricco back to a rescue or a shelter. Im sorry you feel Im not doing well with learning the tools I need to help a dog thats has already been dropped off {probably more than once}. As Ive stated before Im taking ALL advice here and from our vet and adding or taking out whats needs to be done. Yes we are a busy fmaily. Yes we have a hard time with a rescued dog who came to us with issues. BUT that doesnt mean I should throw him away like every one else did.

Sorry to be offended but this dog has been with me for months now. He has bonded well with every one and every pet in my home. I cant see removing him over a pooping issue that can be fixed or my training issues which I happen to be learning form the rest here.

Im not prefect by any means. I also wont give up. Ive done rescue on exotics for years and I know what happens to ANY pet given up after adopted from a shelter.

So far in 2 days we only had 1 poop. Ive noticed a massive change in Ricco once I ignored his running in and finding a corner and leaving a gift. I simply clean it well and take him back out to potty for a few more min. Im now also timing the 13 yr old. If hes not out side for 5 min {5 min every 30 since its FREEZING here  } I walk his happy butt back out the door with Ricco in hand.

Kennel training ~ I think I cried all day Friday. All Ricco wanted was to come out and play. But for the school hours he was in kennel. That would be normal every day {exp weekends} Our vets idea of allowing him to cry it out then reward when hes been quiet for X amount of time did wonders. Just breaks my heart at the moment. I think I see him at the shelter doing this is why. Stuffing in a small space crying....for some thing like 4-6 months. So I have a new mind set to put into MY head.

Treats ~ FOUND ONE!!!! He likes cheese bacon treats. I went through 5 dif treats =.= He refuses people food {which is good since our baby tries to feed him every thing}

Food ~ I use Purina puppy chow. I have no idea about foods so it was my best guess. My boxer had an iron stomach so he ate every thing not bolted down. Now our vet said Ricco had no issues {worms,intestine issues and such that pups have} he did however agree that if the poop inside continues we will try a dif food. He thinks its a lot of us getting used to knowing Ricco's body lingo so we can better judge when hes done out side.

Did I miss any thing lol? You have no idea how much all the positive help has been. Its been almost 12 years since Ive had a puppy in our home. Bobb was out side on a runner {was spring so we could do that} to potty train and was not a rescue.

You want to see why we would never give up our Ricco?









Thats why. We love him, no matter what. He is part of our family. Ohana means family, it maybe a cheesy Disney cartoon but its true.

ʻohana means family (in an extended sense of the term, including blood-related, adoptive or intentional). The concept emphasizes that families are bound together and members must cooperate and remember one another. Ricco is FAMILY.


----------



## Ricco'sMommy

dianaplo said:


> I have a Cavalier rescue in addition to my hav pup. I have had her for 2 years and she was probably 4 when I got her but it's really just a guess. She had spent her life in a cage in a garage having puppies. She is now housebroken but it was a much longer process than with any puppy I ever had.
> She absolutely would not crate. I started her in a small expen. When she had proven to be housetrained in that I made it bigger. Later I increased her space to my small family room....later she was confined to the family room and kitchen. Very slowly she earned more free space. I spent most of my day near her.
> As time went on...I let her go throughout the house with me on leash. After many months we started having special evenings in the living room. She still loves that time of day with the special toys and bigger sofa! Doggie gates were the best investment I ever made. We never used a pee pad.
> I discovered she would sneak into the bathrooms and pee on bathmats so I keep those picked up.
> Now I have the puppy so we are once again spending most of our time in one small part of the house but I think its better to take it slow.
> My almost 6 month old pup SEEMS housebroken but I know that if I give him too much freedom we may develop habits that will be hard to break.
> Anyway that is my experience. I hope it helps. I'm sure I could have maybe done something differently but I think it just takes time and consistency.


Actually never thought of this. Hes in a small kennel now. But maybe in time we can resize and try this idea. Id love to, at some point, have him able to sleep in or near our beds. He loves to cuddle and get hugs. Rescues are so hard to know how to train  Im glad I have people here that have done this with smaller dogs.


----------



## Gibbs Mom and Dad

Ricco's Mom,

I've just read the current posts and want to respond, but am on my way out.

I just want to offer my support and thank you for rescuing Ricco. Hang in there.


----------



## krandall

It sounds like you are making some great changes to help Ricco.

Purina puppy chow is not a particularly good food. Lots of fillers in that, and the more fillers, the more waste output you're going to have. Pretty much anything you can buy in a grocery store is a bad choice, but there are lots of reasonable choices at Petco and Petsmart. As a starting point, look at www.dogfoodadvisor.com. This isn't the be-all and end-all of information, but it's not a bad jumping off point.

Here's how they rate Purina Puppy Chow:

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/purina-puppy-chow/


----------



## krandall

Ricco'sMommy said:


> Actually never thought of this. Hes in a small kennel now. But maybe in time we can resize and try this idea. Id love to, at some point, have him able to sleep in or near our beds. He loves to cuddle and get hugs. Rescues are so hard to know how to train  Im glad I have people here that have done this with smaller dogs.


Ex-pens are an EXCELLENT choice for confinement during potty training. I bet you could find a used one nearby on Craigs List.


----------



## Ruthiec

What a lovely picture - one of the most beautiful on the forum.

You have every right to be offended - I would have been outraged!

Many of us go through the same "will they ever get it" frustration. But they all do sooner or later - it just takes patience and some tough love in ignoring them sometimes. I'm with John (Gibbs), hang in there.


----------



## dianaplo

He is very cute...baby too! My babies are 24 and 27 years old but I remember those days. So you have a lot more going on at your house than I do at mine. I think that makes training more difficult because you can't see everything that goes on and you will need help with things from family members. It's a learning process for everyone and you are making great memories. 
But just stay consistent now that you have a method that is working. He needs to know what to expect. Good luck!


----------



## sandypaws

Your baby is adorable. Love the picture of Ricco looking at him with adoring eyes. It makes it all worth it, doesn't it. I give you a lot of credit for doing all you're doing with a baby and all. Because you are so invested in Ricco, you will make this work and he will eventually get it. Keep up the good work. Everyone is here to support you in your journey.


----------



## Ricco'sMommy

Thank you all. Im sorry I dont mean to get "nasty" about this. I just see so many pets get thrown away because people give up. Ricco isnt a thing I can take back to a store for a refund. If he ever went back he will die.

That pic is the reason Id never give him away. You can see the love he has for his baby. How could I, with poops and all, ever get rid of him?

Ok Im going to OD you all on cute. As I was typing I see this :









Yep...I have cuteness all over the place here hahaha! As for all the help...THANK YOU! We will be keeping every one updated. Also Ill call the vet about good foods. Once our taxes come in Ill buy in bulk {saves so much!} I really had no clue store foods were so icky. Probably change the cats over as well!


----------



## Ricco'sMommy

krandall said:


> Ex-pens are an EXCELLENT choice for confinement during potty training. I bet you could find a used one nearby on Craigs List.


I will be getting a 3 in one kennel soon! The groomer who lets Ricco come play on her farm has offered us one she had that she used to train her guys in. It starts off small but can get bigger for more room as they learn to house break. It opens up to fit a 50 lbd dog. Cant wait for this! We also considered {after the kennel time isnt so rough} moving the kennel into the living room and out of my older sons room. Allowing Ricco to see us, that is after he gets used to his "up" times during the day with out the barking.

One step at a time! We will get this


----------



## krandall

Ricco'sMommy said:


> Thank you all. Im sorry I dont mean to get "nasty" about this. I just see so many pets get thrown away because people give up. Ricco isnt a thing I can take back to a store for a refund. If he ever went back he will die.
> 
> That pic is the reason Id never give him away. You can see the love he has for his baby. How could I, with poops and all, ever get rid of him?
> 
> Ok Im going to OD you all on cute. As I was typing I see this :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep...I have cuteness all over the place here hahaha! As for all the help...THANK YOU! We will be keeping every one updated. Also Ill call the vet about good foods. Once our taxes come in Ill buy in bulk {saves so much!} I really had no clue store foods were so icky. Probably change the cats over as well!


Just be careful, because, well meaning as they are, most vets get almost NO training in nutrition in vet school. What they "learn" is from pet food manufacturers who would like them to market their products in their offices. There are some that do much better, but this is pretty standard. I don't think they MEAN to give bad advice, but they don't have the knowledge in this area. That's why I gave you the web site I did, so you can poke around there and learn how to read labels, etc.


----------



## krandall

Ricco'sMommy said:


> I will be getting a 3 in one kennel soon! The groomer who lets Ricco come play on her farm has offered us one she had that she used to train her guys in. It starts off small but can get bigger for more room as they learn to house break. It opens up to fit a 50 lbd dog. Cant wait for this! We also considered {after the kennel time isnt so rough} moving the kennel into the living room and out of my older sons room. Allowing Ricco to see us, that is after he gets used to his "up" times during the day with out the barking.
> 
> One step at a time! We will get this


That's better than a small crate, but do consider eventually graduating him to an ex-pen or ex-pen crate combination. This is what we had set up for Kodi for over two years. He wasn't in his pen all the time&#8230; As he became more reliable, he had the run of first the kitchen, then the kitchen and family room, then the whole whole downstairs and MUCH later the whole house. He still stayed in his pen when we were out of the house. WE don't use it any more, but he is still gated in my office with his crate, a water bottle and his litter box when we are out of the house. He would
t have "accidents" in the house at this point, but you NEVER know when a dog might get into something while you are away that might harm them. I feel safer knowing he is in a secure, enclosed space.


----------



## Ricco'sMommy

krandall said:


> That's better than a small crate, but do consider eventually graduating him to an ex-pen or ex-pen crate combination. This is what we had set up for Kodi for over two years. He wasn't in his pen all the time&#8230; As he became more reliable, he had the run of first the kitchen, then the kitchen and family room, then the whole whole downstairs and MUCH later the whole house. He still stayed in his pen when we were out of the house. WE don't use it any more, but he is still gated in my office with his crate, a water bottle and his litter box when we are out of the house. He would
> t have "accidents" in the house at this point, but you NEVER know when a dog might get into something while you are away that might harm them. I feel safer knowing he is in a secure, enclosed space.


I love this idea. We will have to work up to it but i really enjoy SEEING Ricco during the day. Once he is able to over come {and me over come my issues} of potty training I think we will invest in this.

Now our vet actually is pretty good. He wont sell most of the store brands. {Im still poking the site you sent as well} Ive seen many foods he has ordered special for other owners. I can hope he is trained to know whats better. Ill for sure see if he has the foods listed as well.

So far we are on 28 HOURS of no poops inside!


----------



## Ricco'sMommy

Oh and where can I find these pens? Im searching for goodies


----------



## krandall

Ricco'sMommy said:


> I love this idea. We will have to work up to it but i really enjoy SEEING Ricco during the day. Once he is able to over come {and me over come my issues} of potty training I think we will invest in this.
> 
> Now our vet actually is pretty good. He wont sell most of the store brands. {Im still poking the site you sent as well} Ive seen many foods he has ordered special for other owners. I can hope he is trained to know whats better. Ill for sure see if he has the foods listed as well.
> 
> So far we are on 28 HOURS of no poops inside!


Great progress! Good for you!!!


----------



## krandall

Ricco'sMommy said:


> Oh and where can I find these pens? Im searching for goodies


You can buy them new at Petco or Petsmart, but I know money is tight, and you could probably find a used one on Craigs list or something. Our town has a "Trading Post" on FB where people can post things they are either selling or looking to buy. Do you have anything like that?


----------



## Ricco'sMommy

Yes we have a trade site. Im also considering getting one with taxes. We always stock up on pet items in Feb, do shots,vet checks...normally I spend 2 thousand in one day on my fur kids. Im remodeling the home as well. So maybe Ill have some spare room for new ideas. 

Im so glad Petco and MVP have online shopping. My crap small town is over an hour drive to both :/ Our small pet shop can order things but its costly.


----------



## Gibbs Mom and Dad

Ricco'sMommy said:


> Thank you all. Im sorry I dont mean to get "nasty" about this. ...


You do not need to apologize. I have no doubt that Ricco's life is better now than it was, and will continue to improve because he has a mom that cared enough to rescue him, and who's willing to open up to a bunch of strangers and ask for help.

It's easy to get stressed and overwhelmed, so just remember we're all doing our best and we can, and we all make mistakes. We're all here to support and help each other with our experiences and knowledge.


----------



## Lalla

I think dianaplo's advice re ex-pen is good, Ricco'smommy (do you have a name, by the by? That's such a mouthful!!); it is my understanding that you should not crate a dog in a confined space (small confined, that is, as in 'kennel') for more than an hour or so at the outside (might be wrong on that, but certainly not all day!!). An ex-pen gives space to move around, and you can put a litter box in one corner. Litter boxes have been brilliant for Cuba and me - she learned quickly that that was an ok place to go, and still has one in an ex pen at night. Then, as already suggested, you can increase space little by little. Cuba is still not reliable if she has the run of our downstairs open plan space; I never let her loose entirely unless she has just peed and poo-ed outside first, or in her litter box, otherwise I have to watch her like a hawk. We are getting there, and haven't had an accident for weeks now, but I know it's still a case of being vigilant. If I go out for any length of time I put her in a fenced off (I use the panels from a re-configured ex pen, they are really versatile!) sort of 'conservatory' part of the kitchen that has a tiled floor, and a litter box. She and Tycho, my Coton, seem reasonably content in there, it's big enough to play in when they want to and there are no dangerous things to chew. Ex pen panels are relatively cheap, and as already suggested you could probably pick up second hand ones somewhere. I'd definitely get Ricco out of close confinement for anything longer than an hour or so, or overnight - you'll have a much happier dog. And DO check out Karen's diet suggestions! You will truly find that poo can change dramatically if you get grain out of his diet. I feed my dogs a commercial raw and the poo is FAR less, much paler and turns to dust more or less as it dries. SO much easier to manage, and really good, too, for emptying anal glands effectively - an important point!!


----------



## Ricco'sMommy

Lol Im April, the smallish boy is Quinn, the elder boy is Zak. 

I do plan on a bigger ex-pen later. One thing Im going to have to do is have a roof on it. Ricco climbs fences =.= 

Not sure we can do litter box. We have 3 cats...I can see my black evil brat taking over Ricco's box. I have been blessed so far that Ricco ignores there box when he sneeks to the bathroom.

I do get stressed with every thing going on. Baby,teenager,every day life...topped off with a Ricco lol...yep can be rough. But like my friend says "this to shall pass". The baby wont be teething forever,the stress goes away at some point and Ricco will learn if I learn how to teach him. He is very smart. Already knows his sings for sit and stay, knows inside voice and easy....Ricco even knows "find the baby and find the Zak". He runs to whom ever I say find! We are learning find Daddy next  He has no trouble finding Mommy lol!


----------



## Lalla

Ricco'sMommy said:


> Lol Im April, the smallish boy is Quinn, the elder boy is Zak.
> 
> I do plan on a bigger ex-pen later. One thing Im going to have to do is have a roof on it. Ricco climbs fences =.=
> 
> Not sure we can do litter box. We have 3 cats...I can see my black evil brat taking over Ricco's box. I have been blessed so far that Ricco ignores there box when he sneeks to the bathroom.
> 
> I do get stressed with every thing going on. Baby,teenager,every day life...topped off with a Ricco lol...yep can be rough. But like my friend says "this to shall pass". The baby wont be teething forever,the stress goes away at some point and Ricco will learn if I learn how to teach him. He is very smart. Already knows his sings for sit and stay, knows inside voice and easy....Ricco even knows "find the baby and find the Zak". He runs to whom ever I say find! We are learning find Daddy next  He has no trouble finding Mommy lol!


If you have a roof on the ex pen you can keep the litter box in there, and the cats won't be able to get at it - everything solved!! DO get one sooner rather than later, April, it will change your life. My set up is pretty similar to Karen's, and that's where Cuba sleeps at night, or spends time when I can't watch her if she's not in the fenced off conservatory room with Tycho. She's never had free run of anywhere without supervision, and ex pens are SO much nicer than being confined in a small crate for too long. As others have advised, enlarging the space little by little is the way to go. It sounds as if you are working really hard at this, and it's great to read the really good advice that's coming in; SO glad you are so good at listening to it! Oh, and completely endorse caution re vets and nutrition; I believe it's the same in the States - certainly here in the UK vets are helped through school by being funded by pet food companies in return for recommending their products once they are in practice. It's scandalous. And means that vets have no other nutrition education. They really truly don't understand this topic. Watch Dr Becker's youtube videos - this one is good:


----------



## krandall

Lalla said:


> Oh, and completely endorse caution re vets and nutrition; I believe it's the same in the States - certainly here in the UK vets are helped through school by being funded by pet food companies in return for recommending their products once they are in practice. It's scandalous.


I don't know how common it is for vets to get funding from pet food companies for school in the U.S&#8230;. certainly NONE of the many vets I am friendly with had any hope from pet food companies. Also, few vets have solitary practices&#8230; especially coming straight out of school. So paying for a vet's education would not in any way guarantee that when the vet got out of school, he or she would have any direct influence over what type of food, if any, a practice chose to carry.

Also, the problem of nutritional training in school is a tricky one. Human doctors, IMO, don't get enough training in nutrition, and they only have to learn about ONE species of animal. Vets have to learn a HUGE amount of information about MANY species, and not all of them are even mammals! It's not that surprising that they can't cram everything into their educations, and unfortunately, nutrition gets short shrift&#8230; And if you think they don't know much about dog nutrition, don't get me started on what they don't know about equine nutrition!

But I REALLY don't think it's some big conspiracy, at least on the part of the vets. We expect human-quality care from our vets and they get paid a small fraction of what human doctors are paid, and often work longer hours. There ARE some who make it their business to learn all they can outside their formal training&#8230; and the information IS out there for those who take the time to delve into it. I think this tends to be most true of vets with holistic or integrative veterinary practices.

I am lucky that the vet Kodi goes to is EXCELLENT, and part of an integrative veterinary practice that considers and uses ALL modalities that might help an animal. I feel very comfortable talking to her about food choices, and I know that she doesn't bat an eye about people who choose to feed raw, as long as they aren't the, "Oh, I just throw him several chicken wings every day and he's doing fine." type of raw feeders.  Their practice DOES offer a line of food for people who want to use it as a convenience, but it is one of the "better" commercial food that a number of people on this forum have chose independently for their dogs&#8230;. And they NEVER "push" it. Not ONCE have they suggest it for Kodi, even when we've been talking about food options. In fact, he takes a supplement (chondroitin) that they carry, and when the vet gave me the first bottle, she said, "You probably want to order this on-line from now on, it's cheaper that way." So she was OBVIOUSLY not trying to push buying things from them.

Even the vet that I left, although they do sell the horrible Science Diet line in the office, never suggested me putting Kodi on it. At his well puppy visits, they would ask me what I was feeding and how much, remark that that was a good choice, and that was as far as the conversation went. So, again, even though I had my "beefs" with that practice, (which is why I ultimately left) it certainly never felt like they were "peddling" dog food to me.

I certainly don't doubt that there are SOME who do this, but I don't think it's a majority, and it's certainly not all.

Oh, and incidentally, while vet programs may not stress training in nutrition, one of my vet friends (a large animal vet) teaches in a vet tech program. In one of her mandatory classes for the major, she makes all the student contact several major grain companies, get the analysis of their feeds, and design a nutritionally balanced diet for a group of horses, using that, plus various types of hay and other available supplements. It is part of their final exam for the class. So there are SOME programs that are trying to close that gap in training on nutrition. :thumb:


----------



## Ricco'sMommy

See our vet carries foods but NEVER even suggested me buying them. They are pricey and he knows we have a larger family {and that we did rescue for a LONG time with exotics...THAT gets expensive}. He asked what we feed,how much,when and the typical things when you have puppy checks. We do every ones yearly visit at once, same day, so he gives us a reduced price on that as well. I think I saw a few brands listed that he does have. Since we buy in bulk Im betting hed give a discount on that as well. 



So far this entire weekend Ricco has had no poops inside. I did block off his fav. corner tho. He came in, looked at it like...well..thats not an option...then went off to play. 

I also found out he is an excited tinkler lol. His Gram stopped in today and he was due to go potty. While Zak was leashing him, Gram got him all happy and he dribbled. I do remember as a puppy my boxer did the same thing but out grew it by age 2. Gram was saying sorry it was all her fault {we blamed her any way haha} No need to even remark to Ricco about that so once he was out the door Mommy got the swiffer  


Im very pleased that just in 3 days he's made a huge step. Now Im not insane, I know we will find a poo sooner or later, but for now Im a proud Mom.


----------



## Ricco'sMommy

Just to show the person who said "let him go" how far we have come.










Before and after shots. BEFORE he came to us he had matting, no weight and was untrained. After...well look at that face and tell me I should send him back. Nope!


----------



## davetgabby

I figured you wouldn't. You can do it. I comes down to wanting to.


----------



## lfung5

I didn't read this entire thread but looks like you have great guidance from experienced forum members. He will get it eventually. It's like a light bulb will go off. I know it's hard to confine them but an xpen critical. I will pay off Hang in there! I love the pictures too!!


----------



## Lalla

Karen, I entirely take your point about vets and nutrition, and of course agree that there are lots of good vets out there (on both sides of the Atlantic and elsewhere); my own vets are absolutely wonderful except for the couple of things where I don't follow their advice (food and spaying), but as you've said before, we all have to keep our brains in gear and question when we feel it necessary, and make our own educated choices sometimes.

I do think it is true that dogs and humans suffer from our ability to survive pretty well on all manner of rubbish that we CAN eat; being able to eat a variety of things and not die can mean that you certainly survive, but you don't necessarily thrive. Just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD. Humans are wrecking their health because they can carry on in a state of chronic sub-functioning on all sorts of bad choices. Those of us who cannot eat grains (celiacs, for example) are the lucky ones. We don't have a choice and are therefore obliged to cut a commodity out of our diets that is slowly damaging others. If you cared for a species of animal that would die if you gave it the wrong food then you'd feed it a species-specific food and have no choice. But dogs can manage with all sorts of things, and look as if they are doing ok when in fact they are becoming chronically compromised. Kibble chronically compromises dogs; dogs are not meant to eat such food but can manage not to die if they do eat it. In a wild state this would be a good survival strategy where the alternative would be to starve to death. We can do better than that by our animals. We owe it to them (and to ourselves) to educate ourselves to do our very best.


----------



## krandall

Ricco'sMommy said:


> See our vet carries foods but NEVER even suggested me buying them. They are pricey and he knows we have a larger family {and that we did rescue for a LONG time with exotics...THAT gets expensive}. He asked what we feed,how much,when and the typical things when you have puppy checks. We do every ones yearly visit at once, same day, so he gives us a reduced price on that as well. I think I saw a few brands listed that he does have. Since we buy in bulk Im betting hed give a discount on that as well.
> 
> So far this entire weekend Ricco has had no poops inside. I did block off his fav. corner tho. He came in, looked at it like...well..thats not an option...then went off to play.
> 
> I also found out he is an excited tinkler lol. His Gram stopped in today and he was due to go potty. While Zak was leashing him, Gram got him all happy and he dribbled. I do remember as a puppy my boxer did the same thing but out grew it by age 2. Gram was saying sorry it was all her fault {we blamed her any way haha} No need to even remark to Ricco about that so once he was out the door Mommy got the swiffer
> 
> Im very pleased that just in 3 days he's made a huge step. Now Im not insane, I know we will find a poo sooner or later, but for now Im a proud Mom.


Sounds like you're doing great! Especially if he's an excited tinkler, as cute as he is, you need to train VISITORS to TOTALLY ignore him when they first come in, and then, when everything is calm, to great him calmly, without getting him to the level where he's not going to be able to hold it. A lot of dogs DO outgrow it, but that are others that never do. Even with them, it can be amanged, though, by keeping things C A L M .


----------



## Lalla

krandall said:


> Sounds like you're doing great! Especially if he's an excited tinkler, as cute as he is, you need to train VISITORS to TOTALLY ignore him when they first come in, and then, when everything is calm, to great him calmly, without getting him to the level where he's not going to be able to hold it. A lot of dogs DO outgrow it, but that are others that never do. Even with them, it can be amanged, though, by keeping things C A L M .


Have fun training visitors! Harder work than training dogs!! Lots of positive reinforcement and treats necessary!! But entirely agreed, that's what's needed.


----------



## Ricco'sMommy

Its really odd how the brands you see most are the very brands you find out have fillers. I assumed Purina and other top names were good foods! I knew Old Roy was grains {had a dog who wanted nothing but that brand} but to think Im buying a "name brand" dog food and Im paying for what? Fillers?


----------



## Ricco'sMommy

davetgabby said:


> I figured you wouldn't. You can do it. I comes down to wanting to.


Your exactly right sir. Most people dont WANT to deal with all that I do PLUS a rescued "broken" {as the shelters put it} dog. I would rather put time and effort into my children, fuzzies and non, rather than give up. Like I said, Ricco isnt an object. Hes family.


----------



## One Sassy One

I have tried putting my Sophie in a confined place when I can't watch her and she cries and whines and gets really loud and upset. Any ideas about keeping her calm.


----------



## Gabs

God bless you for rescuing this precious soul! He is adorable! I'm so glad he has a warm & loving home with a family to love him and one for him to love in return.


----------



## krandall

One Sassy One said:


> I have tried putting my Sophie in a confined place when I can't watch her and she cries and whines and gets really loud and upset. Any ideas about keeping her calm.


Something to chew on and occupy her may help, but she may just have to learn that you WILL come back and that there are times she needs to be by herself. (start with very short periods) Some people have found that putting them in a plastic kennel near whatever they are doing helps, because they can at least SEE their humans.

In Kodi's case, He was worse when I was near the ex-pen. He just wanted out! So I just had to be hard-hearted.


----------



## RitaandRiley

Riccos Mommy, Is there a Tractor Supply near you? Some people say they like this food for their dogs; http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/4health-dog-food-dry/. I think they carry other brands as well.


----------



## MarinaGirl

April - I'm enjoying this thread because the issues you're experiencing are ones others have had so the advice offered can help many forum members. I really appreciate how open you've been to feedback and am excited that some of the changes you've made are already showing positive results. You're a great Hav mommy! 

In one of your posts you mentioned you're planning to buy a huge bag of dog food to save money. However, before you do that I recommend you purchase a small bag first so you're sure the one you buy in bulk is one your dog likes, and is not one that he's allergic to, and doesn't cause loose or large stools. It may take some trial and error to find the right food as all dogs are different. Here's a list of highly rated (5 Star) dry dog food from DogFoodAdvisor.

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/dry/5-star/

Five Star Dry Dog Foods:


Acana Dog Food 
 Acana Regionals Grain-Free 
 Amicus Dog Food 
 Annamaet Grain Free 
 Artemis Fresh Mix Maximal Dog 
 Back to Basics Dog Food 
 Blue Buffalo Wilderness 
 Brothers Complete Advanced Allergy Care 
 Brothers Complete Dog Food 
 By Nature Organics 
 Canidae Grain Free Pure 
 Canidae Single Grain Protein Plus 
 Castor and Pollux Natural Ultramix Grain-Free 
 Dogswell LiveFree 
 Dr. Harvey's Oracle Dog Food 
 Dr. Tim's Dog Food 
 Dr. Tim's Grain Free Dog Food 
 Earthborn Holistic Primitive Natural 
 Evanger's Grain Free Dog Food 
 EVO Dog Food 
 Farmina N&D Grain Free Dog Food 
 Go! Fit and Free 
 Great Life Grain Free 
 Hi-Tek Naturals Grain Free 
 Holistic Blend Grain Free 
 Horizon Legacy 
 I and Love and You Nude Food 
 Infinia Dog Food 
 Innova Prime Grain Free 
 Merrick Classic Dog Food 
 Merrick Grain Free Dog Food 
 Nature's Logic 
 Nature's Variety Instinct 
 Nature's Variety Instinct Raw Boost 
 Nutram Grain Free Dog Food 
 Nutrience Grain Free 
 Nutrisca Dog Food 
 Only Natural Pet MaxMeat Dog Food 
 Orijen Dog Food 
 Oven-Baked Tradition Grain Free 
 Performatrin Ultra Grain Free 
 Pinnacle Peak Protein Formula 
 Pioneer Naturals Grain Free 
 Sammy Snacks Ancestry Dog Food 
 Simply Nourish Source 
 Solid Gold Barking at the Moon 
 Solid Gold Sun Dancer 
 TimberWolf Platinum 
 Tuscan Natural Carne Dog Food 
 Victor Grain Free Dog Food 
 Wellness Core Dog Food 
 Wellness Core Reduced Fat 
 Wysong Epigen 
 Wysong Epigen 90 
 Young Again Dog Food
All the best,
Jeanne


----------



## One Sassy One

krandall said:


> Something to chew on and occupy her may help, but she may just have to learn that you WILL come back and that there are times she needs to be by herself. (start with very short periods) Some people have found that putting them in a plastic kennel near whatever they are doing helps, because they can at least SEE their humans.
> 
> In Kodi's case, He was worse when I was near the ex-pen. He just wanted out! So I just had to be hard-hearted.


Thank you Karen for your suggestions! I have tried different things like something to chew on. The problem is that she can see me so she wants to be with me. I work full time so she is home alone all day and knows when I am home. She is fine when I turn everything off and go to bed and when I leave for work in the morning, it's when she knows I'm there if she is not out she cries. I have her in the bathroom with a baby gate, she figured out how to pop the baby gate out of the door jam if it is not in so tight that it looks like it is going to bust. I will try putting her in there for a short period of time and see how that works. Thank you so much for your input, this is my first Havanese and I have so many questions I am working through things one at a time.


----------



## Alcibides

Even the vet that I left, although they do sell the horrible Science Diet line in the office, never suggested me putting Kodi on it. :[/QUOTE]

Karen, could you please say more about Science Diet (or is there a link on the forum?) A friend's vet put her little Hav (9 months now) on it and the puppy has had all sorts of diarrhea and vomitting. Vet says Hav just have delicate bellies but Lucky never had that trouble from his food. Mmmm....thanks for your input.


----------



## krandall

Alcibides said:


> Even the vet that I left, although they do sell the horrible Science Diet line in the office, never suggested me putting Kodi on it. :


Karen, could you please say more about Science Diet (or is there a link on the forum?) A friend's vet put her little Hav (9 months now) on it and the puppy has had all sorts of diarrhea and vomitting. Vet says Hav just have delicate bellies but Lucky never had that trouble from his food. Mmmm....thanks for your input.[/QUOTE]

Here's a review of Science diet. Personally, I wouldn't feed ANY food containing corn. Other grains aren't so bad unless your dog has a known allergy or sensitivity to them. But corn is not a part of quality dog food.

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/hills-science-diet-dog-food-adult-dry/

This helps you learn how to read labels:

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=labelinfo101


----------



## DawnH

All I can add is that in the week since this thread started that you've made progress. Hang in there...it's hard to untrain bad habits, but you seem to be on the right track. Beautiful baby and puppy!


----------



## Ricco'sMommy

DawnH said:


> All I can add is that in the week since this thread started that you've made progress. Hang in there...it's hard to untrain bad habits, but you seem to be on the right track. Beautiful baby and puppy!


Thank you


----------



## louise

You note that you've been taking him out for short periods of time because it's so cold. Exercise often evokes the urge to defecate. I wonder whether he needs to be out longer and if he were, he would poop outside more than once rather than doing the second poop as soon as he returns home.

Ellie is often walked for 45 minutes +. During that time she usually poops twice - once shortly after we get out and the second time, often after 1/2 hour.

I am a Psychotherapist in my "other" life - but maybe this isn't an emotional issue


----------



## Ricco'sMommy

louise said:


> You note that you've been taking him out for short periods of time because it's so cold. Exercise often evokes the urge to defecate. I wonder whether he needs to be out longer and if he were, he would poop outside more than once rather than doing the second poop as soon as he returns home.
> 
> Ellie is often walked for 45 minutes +. During that time she usually poops twice - once shortly after we get out and the second time, often after 1/2 hour.
> 
> I am a Psychotherapist in my "other" life - but maybe this isn't an emotional issue


LOL! Well Id walk him longer but he cant be seen for all the snow! Ricco jumped off the back stoop and all I saw was a nose hahaha. If winter ever gives up and dies I will walk him much longer


----------

