# Guarantees



## Tom King

*Started out about Guarantees but morphed*

You hear an awful lot about health testing, and I hope that's always the case, but I don't remember ever reading anything about a breeder's guarantee on these forums.

You also hear the term "Responsible Breeder" a lot. That can cover a wide range of things too but the most important thing is that the breeder is "responsible" to the puppies he/she produces.

There is the standard sort of guarantee where the breeder says they will replace the puppy. A lot of times this can be a copout because the majority of the time once a buyer has held the puppy they bought they won't give it up for anything. So I don't like that one. I don't remember ever hearing of a puppy being "replaced". Some of us may remember Darby.

There is another standard sort of guarantee, even recommended at one time (maybe still) by AKC where the breeder says they will buy the puppy/dog back at any time during its life. This is a good one but can also be misused much like the replace policy.

Most guarantee to deliver a healthy puppy. I would hope so.

Here's sort of a synopsis of our Guarantee in addition to the standard buyback for life clause:

We will pay up to the price of the puppy for any medical procedure needed caused by a congenital health problem.

If a puppy you get from us develops Chondrodysplasia we will give you your money back.

We will provide you with a puppy who is trained to use a litter box in an expen and all the time you need for us to train you how to further train the puppy.

We will provide you with a puppy who is already trained to sleep in a crate in your bedroom.

We guarantee that you can loose the training IN ONE AFTERNOON that we have put into the puppy for the previous two categories if you don't spend time with us to understand the training .

We guarantee that we will be available to discuss anything you need to know or need help with about your dog by phone or email.

We will "babysit" for any puppy you get from us any time you need to leave it and will work on any training that it or you need. We have people who come from surrounding states to leave their dog with us when they go on vacation.

I'm probably forgetting something but with all the new breeders and ever increasing numbers of puppy buyers I hope this gives some an idea of what being responsible means.

I'll come back and edit this first post if I think of anything that I left out.


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## Julie

I love your guarantee Tom. It would be nice if every breeder did this and did all the health testing too. I imagine we would have a whole different world........can you imagine?


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## Poornima

Julie said:


> I love your guarantee Tom. It would be nice if every breeder did this and did all the health testing too. I imagine we would have a whole different world........can you imagine?


So true, Julie!

Tom, thanks for posting this. Many would-be puppy owners should know what kind of committment and responsibility is expected of them as well from the breeder.

I am fortunate that my breeder has ths same committment and values you described. I was the first time puppy owner and without my breeder's unstinting 24/7 support and guidance, it would have been difficult.


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## CinnCinn

Tom, I think it's great you've posted some expectations. Thanks for doing it. It's information that I don't think all puppy buyers know to ask. You don't anticipate the "what if's".


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## JASHavanese

Julie said:


> I love your guarantee Tom. It would be nice if every breeder did this and did all the health testing too. I imagine we would have a whole different world........can you imagine?


There are so many guarantees out there and a woman I know found out it's not worth the paper or website it's written on. She spent a fortune getting this dog it's championship and then she specialed her. She had the hip prelims done and found out that little skip she saw in the rear of the dog showed it has hip dysplasia. She told the breeder she was going to return her but was told they would only take her back as long as she didn't spay her. The breeder continues to post on their website that they'll take a dog back and refund your money though. Someone can say anything but do they back it? I know another breeder who also claims to forever take a dog back and refund your money and boasts that they've never done it unless it was a bitch they could breed.


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## Julie

I'm sure there is plenty of this type of stuff Jan. It's sad.....but true. Claiming and Doing are 2 seperate things-----but wouldn't it be nice if all people "said what they meant,meant what they said,and stood by it?"

Everyone could use some of that---:wink:


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## Tom King

Yes, nothing is worth more than a reputation. Almost every puppy we sell is a referral. 

The puppy buyer can tell a lot with a visit to the breeder. There are more and more breeders trying to live off of selling puppies. I don't know anyone who is making a comfortable living off of it. There are many categories of breeders and this is one thing that every puppy buyer should take into consideration.


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## Thumper

Those are some great guarantees, Tom! I especially like the Camp-Starborn Hav-sitting service! I think that's just awesome, I'd probably do the same thing if I were a breeder, it would be great to visit the puppies! Actually, did I tell you I did pup-sit 3 hav-silks last month...so we had "Camp Kara and Gucci". Ohh..it was fun! My husband said with looked like Manhattan Dog walkers trying to walk all four dogs twice a day! lol Some neighbors of ours took a picture and I need to get it from them.

Tom, I'd love to meet your crew when we get up to Lake Gaston! Dh and I are talking about renting a place for the weekend sometime this Fall. If you know of anyone that has Hav-friendly rentals, let me know!

Jan, that's an awful situation. People really should stand by their word!

Kara


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## Tom King

That's funny. I didn't know that I had mentioned "Camp Starborn" but that's exactly what a number of people call it.

We do know of a place on the lake right near us. Gucci would no doubt have fun visiting our pack. We can even keep her here if your family wants to go out to do something without her when you are here.


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## Thumper

I remember you mentioning it on another thread awhile back!

If you could PM me the realty company or the link, I'd appreciate it! Actually, it will probably just be me, DH and Gucci, just spending a quiet weekend away  I appreciate the offer! We'll certainly come visit your crew.

Kara


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## marjrc

Tom, it's very helpful to see what you offer as guarantee to your puppy buyers and it gives an example on how it is backed it up. 

I think that when people are looking to get a Havanese, they don't realize all the 'ifs, buts and who-knows' until it's pointed out to them. I didn't! 

This is good for learning. Thank you for posting it!


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## mellowbo

Tom, I really like the part where you say you will take the puppy back and you add that most puppy owners absolutely don't want to give the puppy back. Then you say you will refund up to the puppy price to help pay for congenital problems to be fixed. I love that because the owner gets to keep their beloved pet but also gets help in the costly fix.

Jan, it makes me sick to think that there are breeders that will take a problem puppy back only if it isn't spayed/neutered. They would actually breed that dog with problems....yuk! I'm thankful for ethical breeders like yourself!


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## Brady's mom

That was one of the best things about Brady's breeder as well. He can always go and stay with her when we are out of town. She has even taken him. for the day a few times when we needed to go somewhere and were concerned he would be alone too long. We call it "Grandmom Diane's Hav Camp". It is such a relief to know you are leaving them with someone who loves them when you travel.


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## JASHavanese

mellowbo said:


> Tom, I really like the part where you say you will take the puppy back and you add that most puppy owners absolutely don't want to give the puppy back. Then you say you will refund up to the puppy price to help pay for congenital problems to be fixed. I love that because the owner gets to keep their beloved pet but also gets help in the costly fix.
> 
> Jan, it makes me sick to think that there are breeders that will take a problem puppy back only if it isn't spayed/neutered. They would actually breed that dog with problems....yuk! I'm thankful for ethical breeders like yourself!


It makes me sick too and the ones I know of that scream guarantee the loudest that don't follow through. Go figure.


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## JASHavanese

Tom are you selling Havanese or Silk Dogs?


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## Leeann

Tom these are great, I think some of the other things I have learned to ask about is how many back to back breeding's the breeder does and what age do they generally stop breeding a bitch. I think it shows a lot about a person when they care enough to take care of their own dogs and not over breed them.


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## Tom King

quote: "Tom are you selling Havanese or Silk Dogs?"

All our dogs are registered in the Havana Silk Dog Association of America and are registered AKC Havanese.

We also have Arab horses that are registered in the German Oldenburg Verband. If we were to show them in an Arab show they would show as Arabs. If we show them in a Sporthorse (horses that do the Olympic events) they would show as German Oldenburgs. We have to add the "German" in front of Oldenburg because their was a split back in the '90s. You might have heard a similar story.

But this is not a thread about that again.

Of course our dogs are Havanese. They are also Havana Silk Dogs.


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## Havtahava

Tom King said:


> Of course our dogs are Havanese. They are also Havana Silk Dogs.


They may be able to be registered as Havanese for a little more time, but to Havanese breeders, especially those HCA members who are in good standing, they are definitely not the same. They are Havanese _*or*_ they are Silk Dogs. They cannot be both.


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## Poornima

Brady's mom said:


> That was one of the best things about Brady's breeder as well. He can always go and stay with her when we are out of town. It is such a relief to know you are leaving them with someone who loves them when you travel.


Karen, that is so true. Benji and Lizzie too would stay with their breeder when we traveled. We didn't want to keep our furballs in the kennel and we only wanted to go with a breeder who would board them when we needed. We never thought we would move away from CA and now here we are. I am now anxious about finding someone reliable and caring to look after Benji and Lizzie.


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## Beamer

Not this subject again.. lol..

Kimberely, I think Tom is correct though... From what I've heard, they are breeding both. If a dog does not meet up to the strict HSD standard, then it gets demoted to Havanese... I think thats accurate?

Ryan


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## Dawna

No Ryan, and I am SO biting my tongue here, that is not accurate. If that's being said, it is being said to sell puppies. Period.
And I am still biting my tongue really, really, really hard.
Dawna


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## Beamer

Tom - If what Kimberely is saying is true (HSD dogs not being able to register with the AKC as Havanese, in the futre) Do you forsee HSD members/breeders jumping ship? This is a honest question and am not trying to be a butt-hole.. 

Well its all relevant i guess though. If the HSD is close to being part of the AKC then it would not matter, but if its still x number of years away..................

Ryan


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## Beamer

Dawna.. ok.. perhaps you are right.. But i did hear those types of things being said...

Ryan


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## Havtahava

If they are claiming to be a breed of a different name, it doesn't even make sense that they want to stay calling their dogs Havanese anyway unless it is just to try to keep one foot on each side of the fence.


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## Beamer

Kimberely - that is true.. They have to be 'havanese' in order to compete in AKC. If they had to wait for the occasional 'fiesta' to pop up, no one would be doing much showing at all.. especially the people whom are not from the East coast!


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## Dawna

Ryan, 
I wasn't being snippy towards you, it just so rubs me the wrong way when people get the impression that havanese are maybe just not quite as good somehow, as a 'havana silk.' When people get that impression, it's because they are being sold on that idea. Cru, my very big ol' sweet havanese, with an underbite and a skip on his rear leg when he runs, who is straight out of a so called HSD dog, well Cru and I are just wondering how the HECK people might be getting that impression. 
Dawna


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## Beamer

Danwa.. no offense taken at all! I did not htink you were being snippy at all! 

Ryan


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## Dawna

Well I was being snippy, just not at you. LOL


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## JASHavanese

Dawna said:


> Ryan,
> I wasn't being snippy towards you, it just so rubs me the wrong way when people get the impression that havanese are maybe just not quite as good somehow, as a 'havana silk.' When people get that impression, it's because they are being sold on that idea. Cru, my very big ol' sweet havanese, with an underbite and a skip on his rear leg when he runs, who is straight out of a so called HSD dog, well Cru and I are just wondering how the HECK people might be getting that impression.
> Dawna


I'm trying to bite my tongue also Dawna. You and Ann both have dogs from Greg with that skip in the back end? Ann's dog is listed on OFA. Here's the results: http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1221848#animal
So someone explain how a silk dog is more healthy since both parents are silks.....no don't bother. I was reading back in the hsd thread where Greg said an underbite isn't a health issue. I wonder if he thinks breeding a Dysplastic dog is? 
And Kimberly, :clap2::cheer2:


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## JASHavanese

Beamer said:


> Well its all relevant i guess though. If the HSD is close to being part of the AKC then it would not matter, but if its still x number of years away..................
> 
> Ryan


Ryan, AKC has already said that they won't accept this silk stuff as a breed. It's not x years away, it's never.


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## Havtahava

By the way, this whole thing is irritating because of all the wonderful people and dogs that it impacts. I have NO problem with any person owning a Havana Silk Dog as a pet. I don't really even have problems with those that have decided to leave Havanese altogether to focus on their Silk Dog breeding (so long as they don't put down the very breed where they started). My problem is with those people that want to be in both camps and talk out both sides of their mouth. They went to Silk Dogs because...??? If there is no difference, then why did you leave? If there is a difference, then which standard are you breeding towards?


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## Beamer

Jan..

I was not aware of such developments.. Does it not usually take along time for these things to happen though? it's only been a year!

Whats the reason(s) the AKC does not want to seperate the Havanese breed to allow HSD to be on their own?

Ryan


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## Havtahava

From the AKC people I've talked to (non-Hav, non-HSD people), it is because genetically, they are not a different breed. It isn't even a different _style_ of dog if you look at the Havanese ring.


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## mellowbo

So, this really confuses me. Lulu's greatgrandfather is Charly who is one of the foundation dogs for Diane Klumbs silk dog line. However, Lulu has lots of Havanese in her breeding too. It would seem logical to me that silk dogs, if they are a different breed, would have to be breeding with only silk dogs to get a silk dog! Why are silk dogs still breeding with Havanese if they want a different breed??
Does my question make sense??
Carole


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## Havtahava

Well, the "silk dog" concept was just invented a year ago. They just took their Havanese and left a year ago in June. (I think that is when it happened.) Some just chose to keep calling them by both names.


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## mellowbo

OK, Lulu was born a year ago in May. I guess that's when Charly was a Havanese, lmao.
Carole


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## Dawncon

Tom,

I didn't find this website until after I had put a deposit down for Pele'. And don't get me wrong, I am in love with my puppy who comes from a great breeder with a great line of dogs. However, when I was researching NC breeders somehow I didn't even come across your name. And I really wish I had. You are a great support here, and I have used all of you advice for potty training. So even though I wouldn't trade my Pele', I imagine it would be wonderful to have one of your dogs and to work with you as a breeder.


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## mellowbo

Dawncon said:


> Tom,
> 
> I didn't find this website until after I had put a deposit down for Pele'. And don't get me wrong, I am in love with my puppy who comes from a great breeder with a great line of dogs. However, when I was researching NC breeders somehow I didn't even come across your name. And I really wish I had. You are a great support here, and I have used all of you advice for potty training. So even though I wouldn't trade my Pele', I imagine it would be wonderful to have one of your dogs and to work with you as a breeder.


Yeah Tom, I wish you would just come home and work to better the Havanese as one breed.
Carole


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## Suuske747

mellowbo said:


> Yeah Tom, I wish you would just come home and work to better the Havanese as one breed.
> Carole


And THAT's exactly my question too to all so-called hsd breeders...
Why don't you come home? 
Be proud Havanese breeders and stop this nonsense! 
There are better ways to oust bad breeders! 
Because now you are being offensive towards good breeders too....good breeders with the same health standards that you claim to have.....
And in my opinion that is simply childish..... most of what I have read on hsd-breeders' sites, has recently become really mean, dishonest, straight out offensive and childish....whereas in the beginning hsd was rather mild...so live and let live.... but now....
If you really have a recipe for success, you shouldn't need to put so much persuasive propaganda in it!

Contradictive is how being put that AKC championship doesn't mean a thing, it could be a CD dog anyway etc etc but at the same time individual dogs are being put on pedestal because of so many AKC championships and specialed! If CD dogs are being championed, then do something about THAT!

Luckily FCI isn't affected yet, and hopefully they'll stand strong against this uproar if it comes towards Europe.....


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## Julie

Havtahava said:


> By the way, this whole thing is irritating because of all the wonderful people and dogs that it impacts. I have NO problem with any person owning a Havana Silk Dog as a pet. I don't really even have problems with those that have decided to leave Havanese altogether to focus on their Silk Dog breeding (so long as they don't put down the very breed where they started). My problem is with those people that want to be in both camps and talk out both sides of their mouth. They went to Silk Dogs because...??? If there is no difference, then why did you leave? If there is a difference, then which standard are you breeding towards?


This is exactly my thoughts as well.

The other thing is to Tom personally---
Tom,
From my interaction on here with you-I think you have a strong sense of character and you are knowledgable and helpful. I think you have a great sounding guarantee and I'd purchase a dog from you....all that being said----we love ya here--but why in the heck are you going with this crazy HS dog nonsense? Why are you staying on a HAVANESE forum? It's not that we don't like you,even love ya,but something doesn't seem right.You know? Instead of just window peeking---tell the HSD peeps to jump off a cliff and just walk in the door...:hug:


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## Tom King

Quote: "They may be able to be registered as Havanese for a little more time, but to Havanese breeders, especially those HCA members who are in good standing, they are definitely not the same. They are Havanese _*or*_ they are Silk Dogs. They cannot be both."
__________________

Of course they can be and they are. It's up to the Parent Club whether the breed is split or not. Some HSDAA breeders are not registering their litters any more with AKC as Havanese, but even if you eliminate those breeders for the HSDAA folks, the ones who are still registering AKC Havanese now comprise the largest Association of Havanese owners anywhere.

I started this thread intending it to be a reference for people doing research on one of many issues concerning these dogs. I will be glad to answer any questions anyone has but please start another thread so this one doesn't turn into something else. Additions to our guarantee have come as a direct result of problems that I have seen arise by new owners right here on this forum.

Please lets keep this one about Guarantees. I think it's a very important issue that has not been discussed much.

Our dogs are AKC registered Havanese. They are also registered Havana Silk Dogs. No matter how much an individual doesn't like it, that's the way it is. If anyone comes up with another Registry that requires more than DNA for all breeding dogs, hands on evaluation, PASSING REQUIRED health tests, eliminating CD from the gene pool any way possible, and anything else that's for the benefit of the dogs, we'll register ours in that Registry too.


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## Havtahava

Well, from my perspective, the subject line may have said guarantees, but the initial post looked more like an advertisement for your kennel, so I thought the question of what you were breeding was totally appropriate for a _Havanese_ forum.


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## EstrellaVila

I am new to the breed and am not going to pretend to be an expert on the HSD v Havanese argument. It just makes me sad that it is clearly one breed, why cant we all work together to better this one breed instead of arguing and saying negative things. There are so many problems in this world, this doesnt have to be one of them.


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## peluitohavanese

Tom,
There are lots of breeders that do what you have listed and more. I for one do all of the above, and my contract has a very clearly spelled out limited and lifetime health guarantee.
Arlene Etzig
Peluito Havanese


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## peluitohavanese

Oh, I forgot to mention.... I breed TRUE BLUE Da REAL Thing Originally from CUBA HAVANESE. Nothing more, nothing less
Arlene Etzig
Peluito Havanese


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## Julie

Arlene,
Your avatar picture has one stunningly gorgeous hav! :clap2: Beautiful!


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## Julie

peluitohavanese said:


> Tom,
> There are lots of breeders that do what you have listed and more. I for one do all of the above, and my contract has a very clearly spelled out limited and lifetime health guarantee.
> Arlene Etzig
> Peluito Havanese


This is wonderful Arlene.....:clap2:


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## peluitohavanese

That's my Bogie. Ch Tapscott's El Bodeguero.  
Arlene


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## JASHavanese

:welcome: Arlene! Nice to see you here


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## peluitohavanese

Thanks gf:whoo:


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## Cheryl

Your avatar is stunning!

I JUST COMPLETED A VACATION TO THE MIDWEST-- 5 states in 10 days and flew home out of MSP.


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## JASHavanese

Cheryl said:


> Your avatar is stunning!
> 
> I JUST COMPLETED A VACATION TO THE MIDWEST-- 5 states in 10 days and flew home out of MSP.


He is a beauty, isn't he? So is her MC. Wow Cheryl, you were on a marathon trip!!


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## TnTWalter

My breeder also has a guarantee and when we went through our issue with Winston's overbite I was so thankful she was a good person and stood behind her word.

Those that are new...Winston has an overbite. My vet freaked me out about it and it turned out to be nothing after I freaked here there and everywhere. My breeder was calm and offered to replace dog [no way] or cover expenses up to cost of him. Winston didn't need any special anything. I only had to pay the $100 to the greedy specialist who obviously just wanted some $$$$.

Tom was very reassuring of the whole issue which I still appreciate.

eace:


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## peluitohavanese

Thank you!


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## peluitohavanese

Thanks Jan! And guess what?? They are both HAVANESE with perfectly straight soaped legs (I've got pictures on my website to prove it , and have passed 7 health screenings with great results (CERF clear every year, Legg Calve Perthes, Good Hips, Elbows, Cardiac, BAER, and Patellas) 
Arlene


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## JASHavanese

peluitohavanese said:


> Thanks Jan! And guess what?? They are both HAVANESE with perfectly straight soaped legs (I've got pictures on my website to prove it , and have passed 7 health screenings with great results (CERF clear every year, Legg Calve Perthes, Good Hips, Elbows, Cardiac, BAER, and Patellas)
> Arlene


Are you sure it's a HAVANESE then? ound:ound:ound:


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## peluitohavanese

Gee... I dunno... let's see... it's got pin straight legs, excellent health testing, a full health guarantee from the breeder who stands behind her dogs all the way.... ummm....if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck....BY GOLLY.. It must be a HAVANESE!!! 
Arlene:brick:


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## luv3havs

Just want to thank Tom King for all the helpful advice he gives on this forum.


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## JASHavanese

peluitohavanese said:


> Gee... I dunno... let's see... it's got pin straight legs, excellent health testing, a full health guarantee from the breeder who stands behind her dogs all the way.... ummm....if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck....BY GOLLY.. It must be a HAVANESE!!!
> Arlene:brick:


We must be doing something right. How about that :biggrin1: Thanks for the morning giggle.
Seriously though, we'd love to see people join the HCA and going against what they stand for isn't the way to do it.


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## peluitohavanese

Well I love our breed the Havanese, and am behind it and the HCA all the way.


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## Me&2Girls

Arlene - welcome! I too adore your Avatar and think that Karen's Rayo is to die for. Such a cutie pie. Your few posts have made me giggle this morning. Thanks for the laugh.


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## peluitohavanese

Thanks Lisa!  I looove Rayo too LOL! Have you met him and Karen in person? He will be showing this weekend and he only needs 1 more point to get his championship. Karen just love her little man!.
Arlene


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## Me&2Girls

Arlene, I know Karen personally - but have only seen Rayo's pictures from the day he came home. I told her she'd finish him fast - and I was right!! Unfortunately I won't see him this weekend - but I did get to see Tasha finish on Saturday. She was going to stay with me ( I just moved up to the north Sacramento area from the SF bay area), but ended up having her bedroom tile installed. So she was doubly excited this weekend.


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## peluitohavanese

Ahhh, yes beautiful Tasha!! Well, you'll have to visit Karen's website and take a look at her page for News and the one about her Boy to see recent pictures of Rayo  www.avivahavanese.com
Arlene


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## jada1938

This is an interesting thread. My contracts have always covered all my guarantees as well as required every pup owner to have all the health tests for that breed done with my being informed of the results. The only way a breeder can, IMHO, have fully informed info to make breeding decisions is to know the health status of every pup produced by them.
Now...I have a lovely champion female. She was guaranteed, money back, if she should not pass any test. Altho I haven't had her adult hip films done yet, her prelim came back as mild HD. I notified her 'breeder'. I told him I have a wonderful home for and I thought sending him documentation of the hip status (adult film if it is HD) and documentation of spaying would entitle me to the refund. He said NO...she must be returned to him intact or I would not get the refund. Since I bought her, I have become totally disillusioned with that 'breeder' for other reasons as well as this refund question. She was from the second litter of the bitch, first with her sire. The dam was then bred over and over, no break between pups, and there is no way I will send this lovely girl back intact to be used that way. There is, of course, more to this, but....My girl was advertised as a Havanese, bought as a Havanese, registered as a Havanese, finished as a Havanese and will remain a Havanese till she dies. Her 'breeder' is hsdaa....Oh...a couple years after getting her, I learned her sire had not passed three OFA films submitted but then with the fourth did pass with a fair...I have many thoughts about this, but...Still, if OFA tells me her adult films do not pass and if she is neutered and placed in a loving eager home, why should the 'breeder' not honor his guarantee? The owner of a younger sibling was told that if her MALE didn't pass, she could keep the dog and get a refund...HMMMMMM.....
Ann Sherman


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## Me&2Girls

Ann - it's nice to see you here. Frankly, I think for many, it depends on what they have in the bank at the time - not to be harsh, but it's just so expensive for breeders now. However, they should be willing to honor their guarantee - but perhaps not the way we expect to get our money back like a retail store.

Your situation would steam me up however. Breeding bad hips - there is absolutely no excuse. I've heard of many who just have them redone and resubmit to OFA. Since three vets read each one, they only have to get one to say they are "fair" and off the bad breeders go. Okay, rant over.


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## LuvMiHav

jada1938 said:


> Now...I have a lovely champion female. She was guaranteed, money back, if she should not pass any test. Altho I haven't had her adult hip films done yet, her prelim came back as mild HD. I notified her 'breeder'. I told him I have a wonderful home for and I thought sending him documentation of the hip status (adult film if it is HD) and documentation of spaying would entitle me to the refund. He said NO...she must be returned to him intact or I would not get the refund.
> Ann Sherman


I'm new here and normally I only lurk. What is the difference between prelims and regular hip x-rays?


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## Tom King

The Prelim is for dogs under 2 years old.

The thing you have to take into account on the rating is that the presentation in the xray has as much to do with it as the structure of the ball and socket.

You can't make bad hips look good but good hips can certainly be made to look bad. In Melissa's Havanista thread she has Stogie's xrays so you can see it. Not only are those good hips but the presentation is spot on.

They look at not only how nice and round the femoral head is but how well it's encased in the socket. If you hold a straight edge across where the femoral head intersects coming out of the socket it should be 50 percent in.

Therein lies the problem with the possibilities to screw up the presentation. Havanese have very flexible hips. I can't think of any other breed that can lay on the floor comfortably in both the "Superman" and "Frog" position. If the xray technitian pulls on the legs at all it's easy to get a gap showing between the ball and socket. No gap showing there will get an excellent. In fact the reason you see so few excellents is that your average Vet practice is not going to get as good a shot as the Specialist that Melissa used.

People have sent us photographs of xrays that they sent off and the dog got some poor grade. In all cases the dog is laying over on one side and the legs are being pulled on. I've seen more than a couple of cases where a failing score came back six months later with a Good.

We have one female, now nine years old, who go a Fair way back before we knew any better. Now of course we understand that it was the xray. She jumps her head up above her bowl sitting on a three foot counter multiple times every meal without ever putting her front end down. If these really are only Fair hips then..............

Long story short you really have to know what you are looking at in the xray to make a decision. The important thing to remember is that you can't make bad hips look good but it's easy to make good hips look bad.

It's a database and no better than the input that it gets. The rating of "fair, good, excellent, whatever" doesn't necessarily tell the whole story. You have to know what you are looking at. I always want to see the xray. Always take a picture like Melissa did before you send the xray off out of your hands.


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## JASHavanese

Originally Posted by jada1938 
Now...I have a lovely champion female. She was guaranteed, money back, if she should not pass any test. Altho I haven't had her adult hip films done yet, her prelim came back as mild HD. I notified her 'breeder'. I told him I have a wonderful home for and I thought sending him documentation of the hip status (adult film if it is HD) and documentation of spaying would entitle me to the refund. He said NO...she must be returned to him intact or I would not get the refund. 
Ann Sherman

I'm new here and normally I only lurk. What is the difference between prelims and regular hip x-rays?



LuvMiHav said:


> I'm new here and normally I only lurk. What is the difference between prelims and regular hip x-rays?


The difference is the age. A prelim is a hip xray before the age of 2. If you have the xray done at 23 months, it's a prelim. If you have it done at 24 months, it's not a prelim.


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## LuvMiHav

Tom King said:


> The Prelim is for dogs under 2 years old.
> 
> The thing you have to take into account on the rating is that the presentation in the xray has as much to do with it as the structure of the ball and socket.
> 
> You can't make bad hips look good but good hips can certainly be made to look bad. In Melissa's Havanista thread she has Stogie's xrays so you can see it. Not only are those good hips but the presentation is spot on.
> 
> They look at not only how nice and round the femoral head is but how well it's encased in the socket. If you hold a straight edge across where the femoral head intersects coming out of the socket it should be 50 percent in.
> 
> Therein lies the problem with the possibilities to screw up the presentation. Havanese have very flexible hips. I can't think of any other breed that can lay on the floor comfortably in both the "Superman" and "Frog" position. If the xray technitian pulls on the legs at all it's easy to get a gap showing between the ball and socket. No gap showing there will get an excellent. In fact the reason you see so few excellents is that your average Vet practice is not going to get as good a shot as the Specialist that Melissa used.
> 
> People have sent us photographs of xrays that they sent off and the dog got some poor grade. In all cases the dog is laying over on one side and the legs are being pulled on. I've seen more than a couple of cases where a failing score came back six months later with a Good.
> 
> We have one female, now nine years old, who go a Fair way back before we knew any better. Now of course we understand that it was the xray. She jumps her head up above her bowl sitting on a three foot counter multiple times every meal without ever putting her front end down. If these really are only Fair hips then..............
> 
> Long story short you really have to know what you are looking at in the xray to make a decision. The important thing to remember is that you can't make bad hips look good but it's easy to make good hips look bad.
> 
> It's a database.


So then Ann's dog could have better hips than the database shows? When does this dog go back for her next set of x-rays?


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## LuvMiHav

I went to Melissa's Havanista thread and saw the pictures. Does this mean if Ann takes her dog to Melissa's specialist she may get a better rating? Does the better rating translate into anything better for Ann? Do you breed a dog with mild dysplasia? If she got a better rating from a specialist after 2 years of age, can she then breed the dog? I have so many questions, I'm sorry for being a pest.


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## Havtahava

Frankly, I'm debating on whether to get prelims done ever again because the rating seems to be so subjective since only one doctor reads the prelims and makes his decision. The finals (after 2 years old) is read by a panel that comes to a consensus on the rating.

One of my girls had a rating of "possibly mildly dysplastic" in one hip. I was bummed and her breeder was very upset by it. I waited a couple more months and had her finals done and she got a "good" rating. That's a couple ratings difference! 

By the way, I went to a couple of the breed clubs that have a lot of hip dysplasia and asked them for a good, knowledgeable vet for getting our hip x-rays done. They recommended one in Southern California (16 hour drive roundtrip) and one in Santa Rosa (5 hours roundtrip in commute traffic). Obviously, I choose the one that is only a 5 hour trip. He is so good at the hip x-rays that he predicts the rating before they submit the films to OFA. He has been completely accurate every time with the finals. He guessed my bitch's prelims would come out "good" too (the ones that were rated as possibly mildly dysplastic the first time, and good when reviewed by a panel).

Having said that, I don't put a lot of credibility into the prelim ratings anymore. I've heard of several other breeders having a vast difference between the prelim & final ratings (and not always where it works to their advantage).

And for the record, there is nothing wrong with a "fair" rating. There is no dysplasia in fair.


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## Havtahava

Actually, this is one area I don't feel like I need to know how to judge myself. I specifically go to this particular veterinarian who explains it to me through the film and sends it in for me. He allows me in the room as they do the radiographs to help hold the dog and keep him/her relaxed, and then he shows me the films. I count on the panel to know how to judge the films because they are trained in it. I am not and don't have any desire to know how - at least not at this time.


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## LuvMiHav

Now I'm confused. Are prelims important? If they can be so easily mispositioned does that mean Ann's mild displastic could actually be better than that? What's the point?



Havtahava said:


> Frankly, I'm debating on whether to get prelims done ever again because the rating seems to be so subjective since only one doctor reads the prelims and makes his decision. The finals (after 2 years old) is read by a panel that comes to a consensus on the rating.
> 
> One of my girls had a rating of "possibly mildly dysplastic" in one hip. I was bummed and her breeder was very upset by it. I waited a couple more months and had her finals done and she got a "good" rating. That's a couple ratings difference!
> 
> By the way, I went to a couple of the breed clubs that have a lot of hip dysplasia and asked them for a good, knowledgeable vet for getting our hip x-rays done. They recommended one in Southern California (16 hour drive roundtrip) and one in Santa Rosa (5 hours roundtrip in commute traffic). Obviously, I choose the one that is only a 5 hour trip. He is so good at the hip x-rays that he predicts the rating before they submit the films to OFA. He has been completely accurate every time with the finals. He guessed my bitch's prelims would come out "good" too (the ones that were rated as possibly mildly dysplastic the first time, and good when reviewed by a panel).
> 
> Having said that, I don't put a lot of credibility into the prelim ratings anymore. I've heard of several other breeders having a vast difference between the prelim & final ratings (and not always where it works to their advantage).
> 
> And for the record, there is nothing wrong with a "fair" rating. There is no dysplasia in fair.


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## LuvMiHav

Tom,

That is a wonderful guarantee. Do other breeders but their guarantees in writing? Is yours on your website? How does all that work?

Jeff


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## Thumper

I think we are really fortunate to have so many great Havanese breeders that really care about the breed and ensuring that future generations are as healthy as can be.

I wish all breeders, even those that breed other breeds..from labs to poodles to retrievers, stood behind their breeding program like our many Hav-breeders do. Guarantees are important, I think. I would be more likely to go to a breeder with them.

Wowee though, this thread has taken many a turns from the OT... 

K.


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## vicw

When I was contemplating getting a Havanese puppy a few years ago, I was drawn to Pam and Tom King as breeders, initially because their contract emphasis for the well-being, health and care of the dog after purchase, rather than a string of legalese gotcha's to protect the breeder. I found that very refreshing and endearing, and it was a factor in our purchase of a puppy from them, about 2 1/2 years ago.

Prior to, and after we got our Maggie, they have been consistently responsive to any questions and concerns at any time. We probably have had fifty or more emails with questions, and Pam or Tom almost invariably managed a kind and helpful response within an evening, except a few times when their ISP was down.

I can attest to their willingness to baby sit our Hav Maggie, which they do for us when we travel to California, or take a short vacation. They provide a caring and safe environment for her, and she enjoys visiting all of her cousins, parents, aunts and uncles. We won't leave her with anyone else outside of our family, or one close friend, even though it means we have to manage an extra evening at a motel, when we leave and when we return, and about 10 extra hours of driving overall. 

One side benefit for us is that we get to visit all of those wonderful Havs, and we always get some good advice in training and grooming from them during our visits.

My wife and I have absolute confidence, trust in and admiration for Pam and Tom. If we could get another Hav, I would happily accept their handshake, in lieu of a contract, as I know they only know how to do the right thing.


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## Thumper

Your Maggie is precious!!! Same blonde/gold ears like my girl 

I'm amazed how popular these dogs are around here in VA/NC. I never knew that til' I got Gucci and I seem to be meeting people all the time with one.

Gucci's breeder has the policy to keep/pupsit her at anytime, but she lives half across the country, so that's just not possible! lol But If I was closer, I would. We've gotten really lucky to find a couple that is keeping her for our vacation next week, and there is no doubt in my mind she will be doted on and well taken care of. I'll still miss her though 

Kara


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## peluitohavanese

Hi Kara,
Many breeders puppy sit. I also do. I only board pups for people who have adopted them from me. They are very happy and comfortable knowing that their pup is in good hands- their breeder! 
As for prelims and official OFA hips. I will leave that to the orthopedic specialists. There is no way I would even attempt or claim that I can evaluate a hip xray. There are certain things they are looking for in these xrays and only a qualified veterinary specialist should do this. 
There is nothing wrong with a Fair hip rating. My practice is not to breed Fair to Fair. Mind you I only have 1 Fair hip rating in my breeding program , and she was bred to a Good and produced 1 Good and 2 Excellents in the same litter. Come to see, I had her hips done by a different vet and with film rather than digital, and too close to her coming out of season. I have no doubt she is probably better than a Fair, but she's produced Excellent hips so I am not concerned at all.
The point is you should always strive to get better than Fair, and that isn't by breeding to another Fair.
Arlene


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## peluitohavanese

Want to know more about what each hip rating means? Go here http://www.offa.org/hipgrade.html
they have pictures with explanation.
Arlene


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## LuvMiHav

This is exactly the thing I want to see from someone who has purchased a puppy from a breeder. Maggie seems quite beautiful and you are fortunate to have found Tom.

Tom, regardless of the things people have posted on this and other threads, I have to believe you are one of the premier breeders in the country and I don't really care what you call your dogs. Good show old chap.

Jeff

Oh and my wife said I should correct myself about where we purchased our Havanese almost 10 years ago. We purchased her in West Virginia. Sorry for the misinformation.



vicw said:


> When I was contemplating getting a Havanese puppy a few years ago, I was drawn to Pam and Tom King as breeders, initially because their contract emphasis for the well-being, health and care of the dog after purchase, rather than a string of legalese gotcha's to protect the breeder. I found that very refreshing and endearing, and it was a factor in our purchase of a puppy from them, about 2 1/2 years ago.
> 
> Prior to, and after we got our Maggie, they have been consistently responsive to any questions and concerns at any time. We probably have had fifty or more emails with questions, and Pam or Tom almost invariably managed a kind and helpful response within an evening, except a few times when their ISP was down.
> 
> I can attest to their willingness to baby sit our Hav Maggie, which they do for us when we travel to California, or take a short vacation. They provide a caring and safe environment for her, and she enjoys visiting all of her cousins, parents, aunts and uncles. We won't leave her with anyone else outside of our family, or one close friend, even though it means we have to manage an extra evening at a motel, when we leave and when we return, and about 10 extra hours of driving overall.
> 
> One side benefit for us is that we get to visit all of those wonderful Havs, and we always get some good advice in training and grooming from them during our visits.
> 
> My wife and I have absolute confidence, trust in and admiration for Pam and Tom. If we could get another Hav, I would happily accept their handshake, in lieu of a contract, as I know they only know how to do the right thing.


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## peluitohavanese

:cheer2:


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## peluitohavanese

Oh yipee! I didn't know we were having an OFA hip clinic!
Arlene


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## Tom King

LuvMiHav said:


> Tom,
> 
> That is a wonderful guarantee. Do other breeders but their guarantees in writing? Is yours on your website? How does all that work?
> 
> Jeff


We go over that when the family who has been approved comes for their first visit and it's in our contract. I haven't had the time or motivation to work on our website so it's not on there.

I went back and edited out my posts about hips on this thread and will start a new thread on hips as soon as I get around to it. I'm doing this while watching the Olympics. Some others may want to delete some of their posts too. I also edited my first post and will probably go back and edit it again.


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## Dawna

Yes Tom I agree,
Maybe anyone posting on this thread and others, mostly in replies to your posts, using a an alias that is not fooling too many people, would want to delete his posts. They are not helpful or informative in any way. Only misleading to new and unsupecting members and potential puppy buyers. 
By the way, I appreciate your integrity.
Dawna


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## Janizona

*prelims*

Personally I won't consider showing a dog until I've done prelims done anymore. We had to spay 2 Champion health tested bitches because they both failed their final hip xrays at two years old. They both failed twice by the way. I had spent upwards of $6000 on each girl with showing, travel, handling fees etc. and that all was thrown out when I spayed them.

Since then I have been doing preliminary xrays at 8 months old and so far my final xrays are coming in with the same ratings (excellent/good/fair). Once I get the ratings on hips, then I run a liver panel and have prelim testing done for cardiac and patellas. At that point the dog is ready to rock the ring!

I love showing dogs but this is an expensive hobby. I can't afford to show dogs that will be spayed or neutered. Plus it's fun to actually finish a dog when they are an adult and not just a puppy!

We used to be in a hurry to get them in the ring when they turned 6 months old but since we wait longer now, I think the pups benefit from just being a puppy for a while longer. I think it's good for their soul :bathbaby:

Everyone has their own reason for what they do and their is no wrong or right. It's a personal choice.


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## Me&2Girls

That's really interesting Janet - now with the cost of going to shows that makes perfect sense. Sure would be nice to see more adults getting their championships. I know my girl will hold since she's on the older side with just one point to go. In fact, she was older than a year when she got her first points and then it went fairly fast. While I do envy those that finish their puppies quickly, I can tell you my photo collection of her at the shows is fabulous. And I've had a great time.


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## mellowbo

Dawna said:


> Yes Tom I agree,
> Maybe anyone posting on this thread and others, mostly in replies to your posts, using a an alias that is not fooling too many people, would want to delete his posts. They are not helpful or informative in any way. Only misleading to new and unsupecting members and potential puppy buyers.
> By the way, I appreciate your integrity.
> Dawna


Awww, come on Dawna, I know you are being fooled.....ound:ound:ound:ound:ound:
hugs


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## Posh's Mom

mellowbo said:


> Awww, come on Dawna, I know you are being fooled.....ound:ound:ound:ound:ound:
> hugs


would someone p.m. me with the inside info on this? i am so "in the dark." :ear:


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## mellowbo

Amy, I was just trying to be funny saying that Dawna was really being fooled by the person who seems to be posting with an alias. Maybe my bad?
Carole


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## Beamer

Huh? what about me?


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## mellowbo

I dunno Ryan.


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## mellowbo

I think we may all be in different conversations together, lmao.


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## Thumper

I don't know about yall, but most men don't make screen names with cute little mispellings of words, like

Kizmidawg...

lol

I mean, that seems so......odd...for a guy, or is it just the guys I know? Do I not know enough cute guys? I'm wonderin'.


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## Jennifer Clevenger

Me&2Girls said:


> That's really interesting Janet - now with the cost of going to shows that makes perfect sense. Sure would be nice to see more adults getting their championships. I know my girl will hold since she's on the older side with just one point to go. In fact, she was older than a year when she got her first points and then it went fairly fast. While I do envy those that finish their puppies quickly, I can tell you my photo collection of her at the shows is fabulous. And I've had a great time.


It seems that girls mature later than the males. There are many females who don't get the first points until after a year.


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## Dawna

Yeah Kara,
Most men don't.


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## EstrellaVila

Jennifer Clevenger said:


> It seems that girls mature later than the males. There are many females who don't get the first points until after a year.


That is interesting.

I would have liked to have known MeMe as a puppy, now I am curious to see the difference time has made. Is it common for females to continue growing longer than males (rather than a spurt)?


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## Me&2Girls

Gee now ya tell me Jennifer! Just think of all the entries fees I could have saved. LOL Estrella, MeMe was the reserve queen as a puppy and very, very small with a beautifully long coat. Can you say, "where are the legs?" Her first three judges giggled when they saw her - "Oh she's so cute" Ya but did ya look at her structure judge? Actually I found out that she got best puppy in her very first show when I looked up her record. I was so shocked. I'll PM you with a link to her puppy slide shows and then post the link here when I find it again. Here it is: http://www.dotphoto.com/go.asp?l=Vanleigha&P=&SID=197021&CID=2136726&Show=Y&E=Y&ILD=4571741 Oh I also forgot, she's got her own website <grin> and you can see her as a five month old puppy here http://Vanleigha.dotphoto.com


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