# Oh, no!! Knee problems



## lilybit (Oct 16, 2013)

My darling little Benji is 6 months old now. He started limping intermittently. I took him to the vet who diagnosed him with both back knees having patella luxation, grade 2..The vet could feel the knee caps slip out of the proper place. No xray was done. I was flustered and barely able to get any questions out. I asked and was told no need to confine or restrict his activities. The next day I called to ask about pain meds which had not been given. Benji is going off by himself to hiding places ( behind the couch, behind a planter, etc) He used to hang around me most of the time. I thought this meant pain. The vet agreed to prescribe 3 or 4 days of pain meds and then I"m to call back. He did not prescribe them at the time of the visit because he didn't think Benji was in pain. The pills have not made a huge difference. The vet tech told me this condition doesn't usually cause pain.. maybe he's just weirded out by it. Sometimes he seems fine and runs around, and plays... but he is still limping some of the time, and going off by himself a lot.
I wonder if I should get another opinion. Any thoughts on this?
I notified the breeder, who I believe is a reputable breeder, by email. She responded that she is sorry, that none of her pups have ever had this, and to keep her posted.I know this can happen even to good breeders. However, I was just interested to hear if typically there would be any other response other than sorry. 
I am so very worried for my little guy. I can hardly bear to think of him in pain...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

lilybit said:


> My darling little Benji is 6 months old now. He started limping intermittently. I took him to the vet who diagnosed him with both back knees having patella luxation, grade 2..The vet could feel the knee caps slip out of the proper place. No xray was done. I was flustered and barely able to get any questions out. I asked and was told no need to confine or restrict his activities. The next day I called to ask about pain meds which had not been given. Benji is going off by himself to hiding places ( behind the couch, behind a planter, etc) He used to hang around me most of the time. I thought this meant pain. The vet agreed to prescribe 3 or 4 days of pain meds and then I"m to call back. He did not prescribe them at the time of the visit because he didn't think Benji was in pain. The pills have not made a huge difference. The vet tech told me this condition doesn't usually cause pain.. maybe he's just weirded out by it. Sometimes he seems fine and runs around, and plays... but he is still limping some of the time, and going off by himself a lot.
> I wonder if I should get another opinion. Any thoughts on this?
> I notified the breeder, who I believe is a reputable breeder, by email. She responded that she is sorry, that none of her pups have ever had this, and to keep her posted.I know this can happen even to good breeders. However, I was just interested to hear if typically there would be any other response other than sorry.
> I am so very worried for my little guy. I can hardly bear to think of him in pain...


I would DEFINITELY get a second opinion. I would not be satisfied with leaving my dog uncomfortable enough that they are limping regularly. Many dogs with grade 2 patellar luxation are NOT in pain, but they also don't limp much. You might see them moving their leg around in a funny way to get the knee back in the right place, or some of them will be sound at the walk or trot, but then run on 3 legs.

I also wouldn't want a dog as young as that on long-term pain meds, though, either. If that was necessary to keep them comfortable, I'd bite the bullet and pay for the required surgery.

As far as the breeder's response is concerned, you'll have to read your contract. MANY contracts only cover "life threatening" defects, which this clearly is not. Many others offer a replacement puppy, but very few people really want that option. (the defective puppy is either found another home or put to sleep, at the discretion of the breeder)

A FEW breeders have contracts that will pay up to the purchase price of the puppy toward surgery to correct a problem like this. But there is no "normal" or "usual". It is up to the buyer to read the contract carefully before buying a dog, and feel comfortable with the terms. Have you looked at your contract?


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## lilybit (Oct 16, 2013)

Karen, thank you so much for your reply. I will get another opinion. He does this thing whereby he stretches his back legs behind him when he gets up from lying down. The vet believes that is Benji popping his kneecaps back in place himself. When I had his first exam when I got Benji, I specifically asked the vet to check for patellar luxation and he said he didn't have it and they were good and sturdy legs. I had thought of it because he was "bunny hopping".. My latest vet visit was with a new partner in the group. 
Do you think that going off by himself, to hiding spots , means that he is in pain? Or could it be part of normal development to need less time near me as he gets older? I am really second guessing myself here. 
As for the breeder contract, there are no specifics spelled out re: in the event of a defect. It makes reference to..." we cannot guarantee the health if your puppy is not checked by your vet within this ( 10 day) time period". I am completely committed to Benji, no matter what.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

lilybit said:


> Karen, thank you so much for your reply. I will get another opinion. He does this thing whereby he stretches his back legs behind him when he gets up from lying down.





lilybit said:


> Do you think that going off by himself, to hiding spots , means that he is in pain? Or could it be part of normal development to need less time near me as he gets older? I am really second guessing myself here.


Going to hide is concerning&#8230; it is not normal for a happy, healthy Havanese, and not a sign of maturing. OTOH, it didn't get much better with pain meds, and I can't see why he would be in pain when he is resting anyway. If there is pain with luxating patellas, my understanding is that it would be when the dog was moving, not at rest. So it could also be that the hiding has some behavioral cause that has nothing to do with his patellas. You might want to have a good local trainer come in to watch him and assess that behavior at home&#8230; It's not really possible for us to say long-distance.



lilybit said:


> As for the breeder contract, there are no specifics spelled out re: in the event of a defect. It makes reference to..." we cannot guarantee the health if your puppy is not checked by your vet within this ( 10 day) time period". I am completely committed to Benji, no matter what.


Then, unfortunately, you don't have anything to fall back on with your breeder. I wish we could catch everyone BEFORE they buy a puppy and get them to really read their contract. Unfortunately, you are not the first or the last to fall for one of these cute, furry faces and not read the fine print.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I am sorry to hear about Benji. Could his knees have gotten injured from jumping? Do you let him jump off things?

I am not sure that he is in pain. It's not painful but more uncomfortable. The dogs gets used to it. Unless he torn something due to his loose knee caps. Fred had bad knees as a puppy. He once was running on the tile and slipped. He screamed and was limping. He was on crate rest for 2 weeks and then he was fine. He live with his bad patellas for years. He had no trouble going on 2-3 mile hikes. In fact that was good for him. I've kept Fred very lean over the years so there was no added weight to stress out his knees. He finally had to have surgery on one of his knees at 7.5 years old. I noticed he wasn't putting pressure on his leg. He was having more bad days than good. His other knee is still holding strong……It's about a grade 3.5-4. Don't know how long it will hold out. He still goes on long hikes with no problem.

I would say if his initial vet check as a wee pup came back fine, the breeder isn't going to honor luxating patella now…Since everything checked out fine as a pup.

Don't rush into doing surgery unless he has more bad days than good in one month. You can walk him doing hills to strengthen the muscles and ligaments around the knee. Also give him daily supplements. I use Coeiquin DS.

Good luck! Please keep us posted!


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## DawnH (Jan 21, 2014)

You should also check into your state's laws protecting pet buyers. Florida has fairly aggressive statutes that allow buyers to recover portions of their vet bills as well as other remedies if a dog is diagnosed within the statutory time limits (up to a year old for congenital defects I think). It's been a long time since I've bred dogs so I'm not up to date on new statutes, but you should at least check into your states laws in case you end up with big vet bills and the breeder isn't responsive. 

I hate to sound like I'm assuming that your breeder isn't reputable or won't work with you on this because I'm not, but that's the reason that Florida enacted stricter guidelines for people who sell pets. So many backyard breeders and puppy mills have taken advantage of dogs, cats and their buyers!

That said, I also used Cosequin DS as a daily supplement for a dog I had with hip dysplasia. It definitely helped him with both pain and mobility without the adverse effects of having to take pain meds or steroids on a long term basis.


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## DawnH (Jan 21, 2014)

lfung5 said:


> I would say if his initial vet check as a wee pup came back fine, the breeder isn't going to honor luxating patella now&#8230;Since everything checked out fine as a pup.
> 
> Don't rush into doing surgery unless he has more bad days than good in one month. You can walk him doing hills to strengthen the muscles and ligaments around the knee. Also give him daily supplements. I use Coeiquin DS.
> 
> Good luck! Please keep us posted!


Linda, can they actually tell when puppies are really young that they'll have the problem? I asked my vet to check Manny for LP on his checkup the day after I bought him at 11 weeks and she said she didn't feel a problem but that he would have to be older to give a definitive answer.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Hmmm. I'm not sure. I got Fred when he was 13 weeks and my vet said he had luxating patellas then. They were only like a grade 1-2 then. Bella's and Scudders knees checked out fine as pups and they are still good today at 9.5 and 7 years old


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## lilybit (Oct 16, 2013)

I appreciate all the input.. Linda, about the jumping. The only thing I am aware of is about a month ago he was sitting with my husband and managed to jump down from the foot part of a reclining chair. It is only about a foot and a half off the ground. My husband said Benji kept on running after jumping down, didn't show any sign of pain or any problem at that time.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I don't think that little jump would damage his knees. I bet he was born with them and the first vet missed it...


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## sandypaws (Aug 8, 2012)

lilybit said:


> Karen, thank you so much for your reply. I will get another opinion. He does this thing whereby he stretches his back legs behind him when he gets up from lying down. The vet believes that is Benji popping his kneecaps back in place himself. When I had his first exam when I got Benji, I specifically asked the vet to check for patellar luxation and he said he didn't have it and they were good and sturdy legs. I had thought of it because he was "bunny hopping".. My latest vet visit was with a new partner in the group.
> Do you think that going off by himself, to hiding spots , means that he is in pain? Or could it be part of normal development to need less time near me as he gets older? I am really second guessing myself here.
> As for the breeder contract, there are no specifics spelled out re: in the event of a defect. It makes reference to..." we cannot guarantee the health if your puppy is not checked by your vet within this ( 10 day) time period". I am completely committed to Benji, no matter what.


Sorry to hear about the LP and hope you get to the bottom of it and the hiding that he's doing. As far as the stretching of his back legs when he gets up from lying down, both of my Havs have done this and I just attributed it to stretching, nothing to do with LP issues, as neither of mine had that condition. Good luck in your journey to sort this out. It is heartbreaking when they go off to hide. I only enough that that once when my Bichon was in pain and hid under the bed.
Hope things get better soon for both of you.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

sandypaws said:


> Sorry to hear about the LP and hope you get to the bottom of it and the hiding that he's doing. As far as the stretching of his back legs when he gets up from lying down, both of my Havs have done this and I just attributed it to stretching, nothing to do with LP issues, as neither of mine had that condition. Good luck in your journey to sort this out. It is heartbreaking when they go off to hide. I only enough that that once when my Bichon was in pain and hid under the bed.
> Hope things get better soon for both of you.


Oh, i meant to say something about that too. I think MOST dogs stretch like that when they wake up!


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## Colbie (Feb 9, 2013)

Colbie stretches like that as well. Usually after a nap.


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## lilybit (Oct 16, 2013)

That is good to hear about the stretching happening even without the patella problem. Maybe there is hope. Benji has an appointment on Tuesday with another Vet for another opinion.


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## dianaplo (Dec 30, 2013)

I'm so sorry for both of you. It seems to be such a common problem these days. Does anyone know if it is less common in breeder puppies versus pet store pups?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

dianaplo said:


> I'm so sorry for both of you. It seems to be such a common problem these days. Does anyone know if it is less common in breeder puppies versus pet store pups?


ALL problems are less common with (responsible) breeder puppies than pet store puppies. Pet store puppies are puppy mill puppies. they are bred indiscriminately with no regard for health or temperament. ALL they care about is pumping out lots of puppies.


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## dianaplo (Dec 30, 2013)

Ok I don't know anything about breeding so I didn't know if this is something that just happens occasionally or ??
I know a lot of people with dogs with the condition, now I'm worrying about my puppy!


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## lilybit (Oct 16, 2013)

Benji Update: I took him to a different vet today for a second opinion. She was stumped. She could not feel a luxating patella in either back leg. She said they typically "pop out" with a grade 2. HIs didn't do this.. She had a colleague check also, who did not feel luxating patellas. She did say that the symptoms would be explained by LP and she is not sure what is causing the limping. Benji finally did a brief little limp in front of the vet  ( at first, his gait was completely normal when we tried a few times walking back and forth in the hall). The limping finally happened after he got up from resting for a few minutes. The vets impression from this brief glimpse was that the problem is in a front paw not the back legs. Although she can't be sure, she's inclined to think it's probably not LP.. She said an xray wouldn't help diagnose if it's LP.. it only would show arthritic changes caused by LP and Benji is too young for this to show up. The plan is for me to try to keep him at rest for two weeks...no jumping around, running, going for walks, etc. IN case this is an injury such as a soft tissue injury that needs rest in order to heal. I am going to try to capture more of the limping on film. If the problem persists she will order an evaluation from the board certified surgeon who is at the practice. In the meantime she offered me the supplement glucosamine and chondroitin which helps joints and would be given in case of LP.. I decided to go ahead with this, given the uncertainty of the situation. I am feeling very hopeful right now


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## sandypaws (Aug 8, 2012)

It's great news that Benji doesn't have LP. So glad that you sought a second opinion. I think you will be pleased with the supplement she recommended, although it does take a while to kick in. Tyler has been taking Cosequin DS for several years because he was stiff and limping when getting up from lying down. When he tore his ACL last summer, both the emergency vet and his own vet told me that arthritis would set into that joint. However, it's been 7 months since his accident and he shows no sign of limping, lameness or stiffness. I attribute that to the Cosequin. Hope Benji has the same result. Good luck.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

lilybit said:


> Benji Update: I took him to a different vet today for a second opinion. She was stumped. She could not feel a luxating patella in either back leg. She said they typically "pop out" with a grade 2. HIs didn't do this.. She had a colleague check also, who did not feel luxating patellas. She did say that the symptoms would be explained by LP and she is not sure what is causing the limping. Benji finally did a brief little limp in front of the vet ( at first, his gait was completely normal when we tried a few times walking back and forth in the hall). The limping finally happened after he got up from resting for a few minutes. The vets impression from this brief glimpse was that the problem is in a front paw not the back legs. Although she can't be sure, she's inclined to think it's probably not LP.. She said an xray wouldn't help diagnose if it's LP.. it only would show arthritic changes caused by LP and Benji is too young for this to show up. The plan is for me to try to keep him at rest for two weeks...no jumping around, running, going for walks, etc. IN case this is an injury such as a soft tissue injury that needs rest in order to heal. I am going to try to capture more of the limping on film. If the problem persists she will order an evaluation from the board certified surgeon who is at the practice. In the meantime she offered me the supplement glucosamine and chondroitin which helps joints and would be given in case of LP.. I decided to go ahead with this, given the uncertainty of the situation. I am feeling very hopeful right now


That's great news!!! If you have a veterinary chiropractor in the area, you might want to try that too. Kodi had a mild lameness for a while that the regular vets couldn't get to the bottom of. Their best advice was to put him on anti-inflamatories and rest it for a while. Someone suggested I take him to a veterinary chiropractor near us, and she IMMEDIATELY found that he had pulled muscles in the groin area of one back leg. (our best guess is that it was at an agility demo we had done on poor footing just before the problem showed up) He drooped into the office with his tail dragging behind him on the floor, and trotted out with his tail up. It took several treatments, but she solved the problem. Then she gave me a bunch of core strengthening exercises to do with him, to help avoid a problem like that in the future.

I'm SO glad that at this point it doesn't look like Benji's patellas!!!:whoo:


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## lilybit (Oct 16, 2013)

Thank you all for the support. IT helps. Karen, I do have a veterinary chiropractor in the area.. Just looked it up. Good idea.
I'm still puzzled about this whole thing. How one vet could feel slipping patellas and then a week later, two vets found no sign of it.. I hope the second two vets are the right ones.. Also read through the thread of Gibbs, last month by GIbbs Mom and Dad where Gibbs was thought to have LP, but turned out not to. In that thread I found a recommendation to film from the side... the head is down for the normal paw and goes up for the sore paw. Will try to see if I can get this figured out, now that this new vet thinks it's a front paw.


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## lilybit (Oct 16, 2013)

Update on Benji... Things have gotten worse. He has angular limb deformity and appt is next Wed for an orthopedic specialist. He needs surgery as soon as possible. Just following my instinct, I ended up going back to the original vet's office to see Benji's regular vet, ( who was unavailable for the appt when the limping started) , and he zeroed in on the front left paw. An x ray showed the problem. A growth plate closed prematurely, and one bone ( ulna) stopped growing . The other bone, the radius is bowed out because it is attached to the bone that stopped growing. The elbow joint has a gap in it..I could see with my own eyes. I'm so heartbroken for what Benji has been going through and what is coming ahead. He also DOES have the luxating patellas.. The vet had me feel the knee cap with my finger and I could feel it move. However, that is minor compared to this big problem.
I don't know if anyone has heard of this..angular limb deformity, gone through this, but thought I'd ask...


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## sandypaws (Aug 8, 2012)

lilybit said:


> Update on Benji... Things have gotten worse. He has angular limb deformity and appt is next Wed for an orthopedic specialist. He needs surgery as soon as possible. Just following my instinct, I ended up going back to the original vet's office to see Benji's regular vet, ( who was unavailable for the appt when the limping started) , and he zeroed in on the front left paw. An x ray showed the problem. A growth plate closed prematurely, and one bone ( ulna) stopped growing . The other bone, the radius is bowed out because it is attached to the bone that stopped growing. The elbow joint has a gap in it..I could see with my own eyes. I'm so heartbroken for what Benji has been going through and what is coming ahead. He also DOES have the luxating patellas.. The vet had me feel the knee cap with my finger and I could feel it move. However, that is minor compared to this big problem.
> I don't know if anyone has heard of this..angular limb deformity, gone through this, but thought I'd ask...


I'm so sorry to hear about Benji's diagnosis. It definitely was not what you were hoping for, but at least you now know why he is limping and hiding. Poor baby! I hope all goes well for both of you. Please keep us posted. My thoughts are with you and Benji.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

lilybit said:


> Update on Benji... Things have gotten worse. He has angular limb deformity and appt is next Wed for an orthopedic specialist. He needs surgery as soon as possible. Just following my instinct, I ended up going back to the original vet's office to see Benji's regular vet, ( who was unavailable for the appt when the limping started) , and he zeroed in on the front left paw. An x ray showed the problem. A growth plate closed prematurely, and one bone ( ulna) stopped growing . The other bone, the radius is bowed out because it is attached to the bone that stopped growing. The elbow joint has a gap in it..I could see with my own eyes. I'm so heartbroken for what Benji has been going through and what is coming ahead. He also DOES have the luxating patellas.. The vet had me feel the knee cap with my finger and I could feel it move. However, that is minor compared to this big problem.
> I don't know if anyone has heard of this..angular limb deformity, gone through this, but thought I'd ask...


It SOUNDS like that may be what Suzi's little Maddie has. She has talked about the fact that a bone isn't properly attached at the elbow. I know she went through a period of discomfort as a puppy, but then it seemed to strengthen up, and I think she runs around on it just fine, though Suzi keeps her from doing things that are TOO strenuous. Check in with her.


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## Colbie (Feb 9, 2013)

Sorry to hear the news but at least you have a diagnosis and a plan of action. Hope things go smoothly for you and Benji.


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

Lilybit - so sorry to hear about Benji's diagnosis. Good luck with getting the best plan of action. Wish I had something more helpful to add.

All the best,
Jeanne


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