# My dogs breeder tricked me.



## Johntucker (Jun 18, 2012)

Almost three years ago I imported three Havanese dogs from who I thought was a reputable breeder.that breeder was referred by a friend of mine,who also has dogs from that specific kennel.After some rumors about that breeder and her non-orthodox breeding practices I decided to to a DNA test on my dogs only to find out that my dogs are not 100% Havanese.It is so upsetting.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Cuban habaneros won't show up in a DNA test as Havanese, simply because they only share a maximum of 3 out of 78 chromosomes.


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## Johntucker (Jun 18, 2012)

Thank you so much for replying Tom.That I knew before testing them.what i was looking for was shih tzu blood in them and i found it. two of my European breeders had told me that breeder had introduce long muzzled shih tzus to improve coat, in the early 2000s but I refused to give credit to that.it was after I bred my male to a Cuban bitch from the same breeder ,owned by a Belgian friend ,also a Havanese breeder that three puppies didn't come out right(too short of a muzzle since they were born,it wasn't just a defect,they looked different).after that I had to test my dogs.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Wow!!! Sounds like a really dumb thing to do, especially with DNA testing available now. I don't know how you would go about suing someone from another country, but I'd be looking into it. It's absolutely not necessary to cross breed to improve coat with DNA testing available on coat type now from Vetgen.


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## Johntucker (Jun 18, 2012)

I know it's really stupid and upsetting.they don't do DNA tests in Cuba as far as I know.i don't think I can sue them since they have different laws and everything in Cuba and on top of that that breeder left the country about a year ago.
Btw the shih tzu thing wasn't only to improve coat quality,that breeder was having a lot of short haired pups caused by a dog(a dog of type,known for passing that gene to his offspring) and that dog shows in her dogs extended pedigree several times.i personally saw pictures of that dog in a cuban book of the breed and i dont know how somebody could ever use that dog for breeding.a lot of European breeders are very upset with this because they bought dogs from that kennel or have them in their pedigrees.i just found out all this yesterday night when I got an email from my friend from belgium .so now I have dogs half shih tzu that carry the short haired gene.i already set up an appointment with my vet to get my dogs spayed and neutered.i am very disappointed.
I am very sorry for the long post.


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## Miss Paige (Apr 4, 2008)

so sorry this happened. Just know you love your dogs and they love you no matter what.


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## Johntucker (Jun 18, 2012)

Thank you Miss Paige.they are the loveliest creatures ever and I love them for what they are!!!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Vetgen has a test for the shorthair gene now too. It's actually connected to a gene controlling "head furnishings", and that's the name of the test. It makes it really easy to get it out of a breeding program now.


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## Johntucker (Jun 18, 2012)

I don't think I'll do anymore tests on them after knowing they are part shih tzu,as i posted before they will be spayed and neutered.thank you so much for the name of the test


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## mamacjt (Aug 23, 2011)

I can't even begin to imagine how you must feel after all your expense and excitement getting Cuban dogs. I am so sorry you have to go through this!! I commend you for doing the right thing though in having them neutered and spayed.


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## Johntucker (Jun 18, 2012)

Mamacjt thank you so much for your words.its the right thing to do now.


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## angiern2004 (Apr 24, 2011)

So sorry that this happened. Good that you're doing the right thing now. 

We'd love to see photos of your dogs!!!


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

What a rotten thing to happen! At least you still have your sweet dogs - great, aren't they???


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## Johntucker (Jun 18, 2012)

They are great of course the thing is that I bought them for a different porpoise,now they will be just pets.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Johntucker said:


> Thank you so much for replying Tom.That I knew before testing them.what i was looking for was shih tzu blood in them and i found it. two of my European breeders had told me that breeder had introduce long muzzled shih tzus to improve coat, in the early 2000s but I refused to give credit to that.it was after I bred my male to a Cuban bitch from the same breeder ,owned by a Belgian friend ,also a Havanese breeder that three puppies didn't come out right(too short of a muzzle since they were born,it wasn't just a defect,they looked different).after that I had to test my dogs.


 So did you sell the puppies? I keep hearing all sorts of stories about Havanese being breed with differant dogs I mean really the American Havanese don't even have bichon in them at all. And when some were tested DNA shows dotson in the blood lines. They sure are cute tho. I'm sorry all that happened to you. 
How much does it cost to have DNA testing done?


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## Johntucker (Jun 18, 2012)

No I didn't sell the puppies,i didnt breed that litter.my male dog was bred to a Cuban bitch owned by a Belgian breeder,they were born there.the test for my three dogs was around 250.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> So did you sell the puppies? I keep hearing all sorts of stories about Havanese being breed with differant dogs I mean really the American Havanese don't even have bichon in them at all. And when some were tested DNA shows dotson in the blood lines. They sure are cute tho. I'm sorry all that happened to you.
> How much does it cost to have DNA testing done?


Where did you hear they had dachshund in them? That's new to me!


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## Johntucker (Jun 18, 2012)

Ive never heard of that before :s


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

krandall said:


> Where did you hear they had dachshund in them? That's new to me!


 I cant remember it was someone involved in the DNA testing I think when I was researching the Havanese silk findings. But that could be the genetic flaw for the short hair. I wounder if the testing for the 3 out of ? is public and also the make up of the Havanese. I have no idea if what I remember hearing if fact. I think it would be fun to really find out the truth behind our Havanese. The problem is everyone who has so much time and money involved don't want it to be research and close the doors to anyone who might be speculating. I don't want to upset people and I'm not involved in the studies so it is really just hear say. If I had an extra $200. I think it would be fun to do a DNA test. Like I said no matter what I love the Havanese mix and hope good reputable breeders test and keep or breed healthy. From what happened to John Tucker all breeders should DNA test before considering breeding. Can it be done befor buying a Havanese? Like at 8 weeks? From the short two years I have been on our forum we are seeing way to many health issues. I haven't studied genetics or inbreeding but I would assume that the amount of off spring from only a small number of breeding stock from the 70's is a lot and becomes suspicious to me.


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## Johntucker (Jun 18, 2012)

In my case I didn't do the test for fun,I did it because there were rumors about that breeder and after those pups were born with such a short muzzle,testing my dogs was the only reasonable option left to find out the truth.the funniest part of it is that my breeder was the stud book keeper for the breed in her country.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Johntucker said:


> In my case I didn't do the test for fun,I did it because there were rumors about that breeder and after those pups were born with such a short muzzle,testing my dogs was the only reasonable option left to find out the truth.the funniest part of it is that my breeder was the stud book keeper for the breed in her country.


 So this is a big deal lots of Mixed Havanese I wounder how many are out there being breed as Havanese? Is their a way to research it? 
I am sort of weird but these are the pictures of Other dogs that I think are mixed into our American Havanese and its only speculation because I haven't seen the DNA testing.
#1 Crasteds
#2 Dachshund
#3 Maltese
#4 Bolognese


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

That is really aweful. I can't imagine the frustration you must be going through. It sounds like you are taking it the best way that you can. Just take a break from everthing and then move forward. I wish you well.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

I have been watching this thread and keeping my fingers off the keyboard. First Welcome John and your three pups!

Most breeders that have been breeding for awhile know and have established a relationship with breeders they may want to exchange/breed/buy a dog from overseas.
Good breeders want often to breed with like minded people. If you are new and what to import a dog, you need to establish a relationship/friendship and go and look at their dogs. Sometimes someone new will have one shipped but often they are not getting the best dogs for showing or breeding. 

Also you really need to get educated and a mentor helps!


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Suzi, you are correct about the dachshound being in the mix of our Havanese. I read it on one of the threads concerning the DNA testing. I know I said that I would not jump in on anymore controversial threads, but when I read that the American Havanese and the Cuban ones don't have the same DNA, and the story behind the cuban ones being brought back from extinction, etc. all made me realize that we have a recent mixed breed dog. Of course that is how all of the dogs came about. Breeders kept mixing dogs until they got what they wanted. I can't fault Mrs Clumb, maybe she is just trying for a different dog. And I did read that the pups were to be bred. When you purchase one, you are responsible for them up until they are used from breeding purposes. So if that is true, then they are making a new dog--not just the F-l. Back to the cuban dog and ours being from those that had escaped Cuba and were gathered up and ...you know the rest. I always wondered about the Havanese in other countries. Where had they come from?


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

The Laughing Magpie said:


> I have been watching this thread and keeping my fingers off the keyboard. First Welcome John and your three pups!
> 
> Most breeders that have been breeding for awhile know and have established a relationship with breeders they may want to exchange/breed/buy a dog from overseas.
> Good breeders want often to breed with like minded people. If you are new and what to import a dog, you need to establish a relationship/friendship and go and look at their dogs. Sometimes someone new will have one shipped but often they are not getting the best dogs for showing or breeding.
> ...


Have to agree. Breeding is a difficult thing to get into when you don't have connections you can 100% trust or a mentor that is willing to enthusiastically support you. I too had to learn from my mistakes and now I have a lot more knowledge than when I bought my dog. There are some points to aquiring quality breeding stock that is more nuanced and not so in-your-face, and it can get confusing. I bought my dog thinking that I had a nice show prospect that could I could potentially use as my foundation bitch, but she is off in conformation and temperment and I basically have to start from scratch. For my next dog I know what to look for: Correct conformation (looking at soaps of parents and puppy) and using a breeder I can completely trust. You have to do a ton of research and ideally visit the site if possible. You won't be able to get a dog from anyone, so don't get disheartened, there are people that are willing to help newcomers.


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## Johntucker (Jun 18, 2012)

I am friends with two European breeders and they both got dogs from that Cuban breeder(she is pretty well known in Europe and Canada) so I was referred to her by my friends.that breeder has lied to so many people that nobody is going to ever trust a dog that has one her mutts n it's pedigree.ive seen a couple of American dogs with dogs from her kennel in their pedigrees.

Yes it is very frustrating and there is nothing I can do now.


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

Ok....We would still love to see pictures of your babes!


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

I bet all of us would love to see pictures of your pups! Names, tidbits about their personality, you know, it helps keep many of us from lusting after having just one more havanese.


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## Johntucker (Jun 18, 2012)

Thank you guys.i will post some so you can see them.


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## Becky Chittenden (Feb 4, 2009)

I'm sorry you were "duped", but I'm glad to hear you did the right thing and still love your dogs.


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## Johntucker (Jun 18, 2012)

I do love them that's for sure.its just a lilttle upsetting that a breeder does that to you.


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## Johntucker (Jun 18, 2012)

It's better not to mention any names here where it will do no good to anybody


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Amri, do you know Zoila Portuondo I have been reading about her . If so is her book worth buying? She seems to have done a lot with Havanese in Cuba.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Heck with who you bought them from, thats old news, Pictures we want to see your babies and hear about them.


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## StarrLhasa (Jun 6, 2010)

Hear, Hear!!


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

Yea! Where's the pictures?


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## rdanielle (Sep 2, 2008)

DNA tests are useless UNLESS you know what you are testing for as there is no such thing as a "purebred" dog per se as all breeds started out combining multiple other breeds together. Just sayin.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

rdanielle said:


> DNA tests are useless UNLESS you know what you are testing for as there is no such thing as a "purebred" dog per se as all breeds started out combining multiple other breeds together. Just sayin.


This was/is my understanding...am I wrong?


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## Johntucker (Jun 18, 2012)

Yes that's true(Renee) those are useless sometimes.As far as I know I maybe wrong though the Cuban Havanese dog doesn't show n DNA tests.but I was looking for shih tzu blood and it showed on the test and befored that two atypical puppies were born to my dog and his half sister,showing unmistakable shih tzu traits. 


I'll post pics that's for sure!


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