# What causes crystals??



## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

With so many dogs having crystals, does anyone know what is suppose to cause them and how we can avoid them in our babies?
Carole:suspicious:


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

From what I have found out in my (tons) of research, is that crystals form when the ph of the urine is too high. High ph is normally caused by bacteria (such as a bladder infection). Bladder stones are what happens when there are lots of crystals that don't go away. 
In my case, we don't know what exactly is causing the bacteria/infections in my dogs. (my guess is their bodies inability to properly rid of something< maybe the proteins> in the Canidae food) We had Jesters urine cultured 2 weeks before his stones were discovered. His culture came back "clear". He also came back clear last week, even though he has obvious crystals. The vet is now thinking there is something funky going on with the lab they are sending the samples to. She said in the last month ALL of the cultures she has sent in have come back clear, even when she knows there is obviously something going on. The culture is to show exactly what type of bacteria is present in the urine.
So my saga continues......


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## RikiDaisyDixie (Apr 15, 2008)

*Food company*

what does the food company say about this?

My cat has had crystals and painful bladder infections. He has to eat special food with no ash. This meant no more treats for him either. But he is 18 and still doing well on the right food.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Oh Katie, I am sorry that this has not ended for you guys! I got the impression from my vet that Lily's crystals were caused from her bodies inability to process certain minerals. But she always had an infection when she had crystals, so I guess I wonder which came first - the chicken (stones) or the egg (infectioin). All I know is that the vet perscribed diet and the distilled water has kept us crystal free for years now!


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

This is part of my frustrations.....my vet doesn't think a prescription diet is necessary. She says it works better for cats than for dogs. This is part of my reason for seeking a secnd opinion. My thought is that "doing nothing" obviously isn't working.... (which is what the vet suggested~Her only idea so far was to stop the canidae, which we have done).


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

I agree Katie, doing nothing is not going make it go away! YOu will just end up with them back in the OR for stone removal. I am not a vet, but I really think that the distilled water and the food works! They dont get any other treats (well maybe I sneak one a week or so). and they get no table food except yogurt. I think it is very wise of you to get the second opinion!!
Kisses to the pups - hope they are feeling better.


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

I will put distilled water on my shopping list!


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Katie, do you know if the infections are viral or bacterial? Have the urine samples been tested to determine the source of the infections? It seems that if that could be narrowed down somehow, it could be the best way to resolve this mess. I don't even know if that is possible - just thinking as I type.


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

Kimberly~
Jesters urine has been cultured twice. Both times coming back "clear", meaning nothing grew to show if it's bacterial or viral. The vet is upset, thinking there is something going on at the lab they send the results to. The vet has had every single culture she has sent in the last month come back clear...which is impossible. So she doesn't know if it's the test tubes they are using, or the shipping method or if something is going on at the lab.
But it's frustrating to say the least. She wants me to bring him back next week to culture him again. I am just afraid the longer I wait, the more likely it is that stones will form again. And you can just send me to the looney bin if I have to pay for another stone removal surgery!


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Yes, I can see why that would be frustrating!

You said something about using another vet, right? They will use a different lab, won't they? It would be a hassle to try to start researching the source with a different vet and find out they use the same lab.

I was trying to work the giant jigsaw puzzle/problem backwards: Stones caused by crystals; crystals caused by infection; infection is bacterial or viral...

The strange thing is that the dogs have had two different types of crystals, right? Struvite is from a pH that is too high, isn't it? (Sorry for all the questions, I don't know enough to be sure of what I'm asking, and if I type them out, maybe they will trigger another thought/question for you too.) And Oxalate is from a lower pH if I recall correctly.

I was reading a while back about calcium being a factor with pH movement in the body. You aren't giving your dogs Tums, are you?

So, the oxalate crystals are from a lower pH and the struvite are from a higher pH. This is a really puzzling part in my mind. If your dogs are getting both of these types of stones, it would seem that it couldn't really be the food, could it? This would probably be the infection creating them. Then again, I don't have a clue. I'm still trying to sort through all the pieces of the puzzle.


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

Yes it is a puzzle, isn't it!!
No, I don't feed the dogs tums. My hope with another vet is that they will have ideas for me so I can end the vicious cycle that seems to be going on.
My current vet just has no ideas for me. I keep asking her what is causing it and what I can do to stop it. She just has no idea. I am not sure if I should change everything (for example homecook for them, and put them on distilled water etc) or if I should do one thing at a time. My biggest fear is more stones. And the more I "wait" or do nothing the more I fear I will be dealing with more stones and surgeries. But I am just not sure exactly where to start!


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I think it would be a smart move to see if another vet in the area has any experience with crystals, but that lab question would still be a concern to keep in the back of your head too.

Also, I'm going to send you an e-mail. No need to post my other plan-of-attack thoughts here.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Wow - If the lab is messing up - she should not charge you for the next testing of the urine! I did not ask what kind of infection Lily had when she had the first crystal incident. Her crystals were struvite. The second time that she had it, she had a staph infection in her bladder!! Vet felt it came from outside somewhere. I wonder why these doctors cannot figure this out?? very frustrating!


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Sometimes I think if we put our heads together and all relate our crystal experiences just maybe we can come up with something. The labs make me crazy! If something hadn't been messed up with Lulu's first lab results I would have been spared a lot of anguish and money, but that is another story.
Katie, I agree with Kimberly that maybe another vet with a different lab is in store. In the meantime, how about doing the distilled water and raw. Hmmm, just thinking off the top of my head, should you have another vet test with a different lab, then start the water and raw. Just so the labs could be comparing apples to apples. Lot of hassel and $$ though. 
Arghh, so frustrating. I'll do my research and see if I can come up with anything too.


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## EstrellaVila (Nov 30, 2007)

So much is going on with crystals. This is such a scary experience. I hope a new vet helps you, and gives you some much needed answers. The other vet's lack of experience and ideas is so frustrating and its just not fair for you.


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Good detective work everyone. Katie I'd agree having a different lab test, a second expert opinion (anyone at Davis possibly?) and it can't hurt going to the distilled water and a lower ash food. I know with my cat that's one of the reasons to have gone with the feline version of Canidae (Felidae) was for the low ash and magnesium. That's interesting the vet said it works better for cats than dogs. Anyway, my cat refuses to eat his second bag of Felidae so I'm going to vote for something going on with the food. At minimum, can you give bottled water until you hear something more definitive?


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## Mijo's Mom (Apr 19, 2007)

As you know, we are battling Mijo's crystal problems too. So far this is what I have done to try and rid Mijo of this problem:
-switched to distilled water (although he barely drinks!)
-giving mostly canned food but adding distilled water to that too
-adding distilled to dry food when I feed it
-making sure he gets even more bathroom breaks than usual

Mijo's crystal problems are frustrating me too... you have made me think about it a little more now. Originally they found struvite so we stopped the high protein food, put him on Hills, next urine sample showed struvite was gone but oxalate had appeared! GRRRR! How does that happen!? Third urine sample showed that the oxalate hadn't disappeared yet. (Still waiting on yesterday's results - will let you know ASAP).

I thought I read somewhere that occasional crystals could also be present in healthy dogs. Could our hav's tests results be alarming us for no reason??? 

Connie


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Connie, My Lily has the struvite crystals several times and she is on the distilled water, but also the SO diet that can only be bought thru the vet . We have been 2 1/2 years free of the crystals and infections. I wonder why more vets dont recommend that diet?? All three of mine have been on it for years and are fine. Yes, it is a little more expensive than regular food, but worth the cost if I dont have to pay for urine samples and ultrasounds and surgery!! I am so thankful that we were able to find the solution to Lily's problem, but I wonder if her situation is different than you guys are experiencing. I hope you and Katie are able to find a solution to these things so your babies get healthy!!!


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## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

This is beyond my expertise, but I can understand the medical language and translate. Here is a great web page: http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/150220.htm

So lets start the translation: Urine crystals can be normal in dogs. Struvite crystals are not a problem unless there is a UTI at the same time. Not all crystals lead to stones. Stones can form without ever seeing crystals first.

Ammonium acid urate crystals suggest liver disease.

I'll keep looking for more info.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Wow Cheryl, very interesting. I never even knew there is a Merck Vet Manual. I bookmarked it for further use. This section you refer to is way over my head. Thanks for the summary.


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## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

I am selective about the websites I use as reference. If you think a website is valuable, but you do not totally understand it, print it and take it to your doc (or vet.)


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

I thought this website was interesting.

http://www.executec.com/urolith.htm

Urolithiasis is a disease caused by the presence and effects of uroliths (stones) or claculi or excessive amounts of crystals in the urinary tract. The disease is referred to by many names, including cystitis, urethritis, urinary calculi, bladder stones, or kidney stones. As in humans, these stones and crystals can form anywhere in the urinary tract of the dog, including the kidney, urethra, or most commonly, the bladder. These crystals or stones irritate the lining of the urinary tract, causing changes in the lining, blood in the urine, and often pain. In some cases the crystals or stones will block or partially block the flow or urine, making urination painful or impossible.

There is no single cause of canine urolithiasis. Yet, there are a number of important factors.
They are:
Age: Urolithiasis may appear in your dog when it is less than two months old, but most stones occur in dogs two to ten years of age.
Sex: Urolithiasis appears to occur with equal frequency in adults of both sexes. However, because the urethra of the male is longer and narrower than the female's, urethral obstruction is more common in males.
Breed: Small breeds, including the Welsh Corgi, Miniature Schnauzer, Pug, Lhasa Apso, Pekingese and Yorkshire Terrier are more commonly affected than are large breeds. The Beagle, Dachshund, Dalmatian, Bulldog, Basset Hounds, Cairn Terrier and Scottish Terrier are also susceptible.
Confinement and Exercise: Infrequent urination, as a result of confinement, lack of regular exercise, or low water intake, contribute to the formation of crystals and uroliths.
Diet: High levels of some minerals in the diet, such as magnesium, phosphorus, and sometimes calcium, have been directly linked to canine urinary bladder stone formation. A diet with excess protein can contribute to stone formation.
In most cases, stones are made up of only one type of crystal, but on occasion, different crystals may be mixed within the same stone. Each type of stone is affected by different nutrients and characteristics of the diet. Therefore, it is important to know what type of stone your dog has.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Cheryl said:


> I am selective about the websites I use as reference. If you think a website is valuable, but you do not totally understand it, print it and take it to your doc (or vet.)


Yes, yes, yes! *This is excellent advice, Cheryl. * Anyone can create a web site and upload bogus or unfounded info. Just because it is on the internet, it is not automatically credible.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Yeah Kimberly and Cheryl. I REALLY need to remember that. LOL.
Carole


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Carole, I hope you don't think I was specifically referring to the info you quoted. I have no idea as to the credibility of that source. My comments were just made to web sites in general. (Likewise, when I look up medical info for my family or me, I only use a couple of web sites because of the lack of credibility of others.)

I used to design & maintain web sites for a living, so I am familiar with how easy it is for anyone to create a site and post anything as if it was fact when it may not be.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Kimberly, No, No, No! I know exactly what you meant. I totally agree with you. Sometimes I get over excited in what I find on the internet and forget about the credibility. 
Oh, did you say you have some great swamp land to sell? LOL
Carole


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

MopTop Havanese said:


> Yes it is a puzzle, isn't it!!
> No, I don't feed the dogs tums. My hope with another vet is that they will have ideas for me so I can end the vicious cycle that seems to be going on.
> My current vet just has no ideas for me. I keep asking her what is causing it and what I can do to stop it. She just has no idea. I am not sure if I should change everything (for example homecook for them, and put them on distilled water etc) or if I should do one thing at a time. My biggest fear is more stones. And the more I "wait" or do nothing the more I fear I will be dealing with more stones and surgeries. But I am just not sure exactly where to start!


Katie,
I haven't read all the posts on this thread, but I have read enough to know that you are still dealing with these darn crystals. I would suggest you contact a canine urologist. There is one at Sacramento Surgical.


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

Thank you all for your thoughts and suggestions.
Kathy, can you tell me more about Sacramento Surgical? I can't seem to find any info on it~ and I would love to start a little closer to home before I contact UC Davis~


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

I have responded to Katie privately.


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## RikiDaisyDixie (Apr 15, 2008)

*have you tried the havhealthforum?*

It is a yahoo group to discuss various havanese health issues.
Linda


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

In looking up Bladder problems in Dr. Pitcairns book, he says that he has not found it necessary to use antibiotics for this problem for the 25yrs that he has been a vet.

Hopefully this helps. 

He states that a common but erroneous idea is that because the gritty material acumulates in the bladder, ash in the food is responsible for urinary tract trouble. Research shows that ash doesn't cause the problem: rather, grit forms because the urine becomes too alkaline. Some commerical foods now add extra acid to make the urine more acidic. 

He stresses the number one factor is poor quality food, with a resulting toxicity and excessive elimination load on the linings of the urinary system. 

For treatment, he indicates changing food to a basic raw recipe (which is in the book) but fasting is especially useful here as it has been observed that continued eating aggravates and prolongs the problem. Fasting on a liquid diet such as a broth made from meat and vegetables. Also make sure they have access to pure water (without flourine or chlorine). Fasting should go anywhere from 1-3 days. Then start with his basic recipes.

Leave the food out for 30min but not more. If your dog doesn't eat, let a natural hunger develop until the next feeding time. Do this for one month. Also give 250mg Vitamin C twice a day, as to help mantain an acidic urine. Also add four drops of cod liver oil to the food (Vitamin A).

If you are interested in the recipes let me know and I can email them out. I just thinking that maybe I should't be posting stuff from the book...


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## rdanielle (Sep 2, 2008)

After the vet nearly killed one of our two Havanese with oxalate bladder stones I started doing some serious research and I'm still researching. I'm a bit obessed now! (I have a gazillion links unfortunately, they're not all handy as I've been through a 5 new laptops in the last 3 months..but thats another story. But once I find them I'll post them all!)

My conclusion:
It all comes down to diet and the commercial pet food industry with their use of grains as proteins. Dogs are carnivores and aren't evolved to digest grains and this leads to many health related issues besides bladder stones that can be avoided with a grain free diet. Another thing that is a cause of bladder stones is when commercial pet food manufacturers add vitamins and minerals in supplement form, i.e. not natural. It doesn't bother them as much when it is in natural form as it is easier to digest. There are many factors that play a role in bladder stone formation. Diet is a leading cause but they only absorb half of the nutrients. Other factors are stress and hydration.

I know more about Oxalates off hand as that is what I'm dealing with my two Havs...

You CANNOT treat Oxalate and Struvites entirely the same as they have different triggers. With Oxalates you want to avoid foods with Vitamin C & D supplements as this is an aggravator.

Both can benefit from a grain free diet as it eliminates the obvious culprits. I can tell you it makes a tremendous difference in the dogs overwell being. Before, switching my 5 year old Hav was acting like her 11 year old mother just laying around. Within 2 weeks she had more energy than she had in YEARS. She was frisky, romping around and RLH. Playing with toys and stealing them too!

Wysong also makes a supplement that helps balance the PH depending on whether they have Oxalates or Struvites.

Links:

Corn-Wheat-Soy = Root of All Evil 
http://petershighlynutritionalpetfoodfor.blogspot.com/2007/04/corn-wheat-soy.html

This has got to be one of the best links I have found out there on bladder stones.
http://www.acreaturecomfort.com/cathealth.htm

Biotic + (Oxalate) & Biotic - (Struvite)
http://www.wysong.net/page/WOTTPWS/CTGY/SUP

More Oxalates:
http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/calcium-oxalate-uroliths/


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