# Training new puppy for grooming



## Naturelover (Nov 30, 2013)

Hi all,

I just got my set of grooming tools and I am working on grooming my 10-week old, Archer. I just want him to get used to everything we do on a daily basis so it will be easy when he is older. I have to admit I am finding this tough! The breeder said he was a really mellow guy and easy to groom... but I am not finding quite the same thing! He will let me use the CC wooden pin brush and the buttercomb a bit on his body, but he really nips and squirms at anything near his face, and becomes a demon when the small slicker touches him anywhere (I'm not using it much but want him to get used to it).

I have been trying to dispense treats when he tolerates it even for a second, but when I spoke to the breeder she said I should be very insistent with him, hold him till he settles, and basically don't put up with any of the biting because he is trying to dominate me. So I guess there is a fine line between adding an element of positive reinforcement and not letting them boss you around... should I be approaching this as a pure positive reinforcement exercise and doing only the tiniest amounts and clicking him for looking at the brush and not biting it, etc? Or should I plow ahead somewhat and just do it regardless, restrain him and brush then treat and praise? 

I'm trying to pick the right times, when he is a bit tired still, or after I wear him out a little. But when he is squirming and nipping, I don't want to reinforce him by discontinuing it and teaching him that is the way to get out of something he doesn't yet like... so then it kind of escalates while I am waiting to find an opportunity for him to calm down when I can treat and praise him...

I don't want to screw up!

Thanks!


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## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

First try to relax! The calmer you are through the grooming the better it will go. There is a balance between only positive and a bit of firmness. If you are rough at all you will turn then against grooming but if they wiggle and you quit then you are teaching them that squirmy behavior will make you stop grooming. For the time being don't use the slicker. You can get him use to it later when he has learned to tolerate brushing and combing. For now, put him on your lap when he is tired. Gently rub his body, feet, face, tail, ears, mouth with your hands and every few strokes use the comb instead of your hand. If he bites at it say softly but firmly eh and comb a stroke, say good boy, stroke with your hand a couple times try to comb stroke then quit. I used this method with Leo and he is so tolerant of being brushed and combed that he will lay across my lap and fall asleep while if comb him. If he wasn't sleepy as a puppy and I combed him he would try to wiggle away or bite the comb but I used the above method and soon the one stroke with the comb became 3, then 5 then a dozen and soon he would let me comb him and not try to bite the comb. Since grooming will always be a part of his life there really isn't an acceptable alternative but for them to learn to tolerate it. Be gently firm, keep sessions really short until they accept combing/brushing, do several times a day for a couple minutes at a time, praise for stillness and accepting the grooming, treat for good behavior (tiny little bits) and play with them a bit afterward as a reward. With persistence you will both get the hang of it.


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## Naturelover (Nov 30, 2013)

Thanks! Good advice all around. I think I need to take it slower than I have been and just stick with the brushes he can tolerate for now until he gets really used to those ones...


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

Listen to Leo's mom, I couldn't have said it better. I promise if you stick to this routine it will get better. There's a reason why puppies don't need excessive comb outs. Mae is 7 months old and is VERY accepting of being groomed in fact I think she likes it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Pucks104 said:


> First try to relax! The calmer you are through the grooming the better it will go. There is a balance between only positive and a bit of firmness. If you are rough at all you will turn then against grooming but if they wiggle and you quit then you are teaching them that squirmy behavior will make you stop grooming. For the time being don't use the slicker. You can get him use to it later when he has learned to tolerate brushing and combing. For now, put him on your lap when he is tired. Gently rub his body, feet, face, tail, ears, mouth with your hands and every few strokes use the comb instead of your hand. If he bites at it say softly but firmly eh and comb a stroke, say good boy, stroke with your hand a couple times try to comb stroke then quit. I used this method with Leo and he is so tolerant of being brushed and combed that he will lay across my lap and fall asleep while if comb him. If he wasn't sleepy as a puppy and I combed him he would try to wiggle away or bite the comb but I used the above method and soon the one stroke with the comb became 3, then 5 then a dozen and soon he would let me comb him and not try to bite the comb. Since grooming will always be a part of his life there really isn't an acceptable alternative but for them to learn to tolerate it. Be gently firm, keep sessions really short until they accept combing/brushing, do several times a day for a couple minutes at a time, praise for stillness and accepting the grooming, treat for good behavior (tiny little bits) and play with them a bit afterward as a reward. With persistence you will both get the hang of it.


This is SUCH good advice. I wish you could see Tom King handle a squirming puppy. He know JUST when to use how much restraint, and how to give IMMEDIATELY the second the puppy relaxes. He can have a whirling dervish asleep in his lap in minutes.

I created a problem with nail clipping with Kodi as a puppy, because I tried to get my husband to help me. His idea of "holding him gently" was to clamp down and not let go for dear life. Kodi would panic and scream and we got nowhere. Next I took him to have the vet (not my current vet) help me with his nails, and that was worse&#8230; there solution was to take him out back and have 3 techs hold him down while the vet did his nails. It sounded like puppy murder! FINALLY I found a groomer who was also a trainer. We spent a YEAR getting him to accept nail trimming without a fight, by her going slow, and me feeding cookies in the front end. He's much better about it now, but still not good for me, though he's easy for a groomer to do with me there with cookies.

Don't fall into the trap of believing that a 9 week old puppy is IN ANY WAY trying to "dominate you". He's an infant. The thought hasn't crossed his mind. He's just doing what puppies do, which is use their teeth. This is your chance to teach good bite inhibition. He needs to learn that people have much more fragile skin than another dog, but it really has nothing to do with dominance.

Most nipping happens in (too wild) play&#8230; this nipping during grooming is just him trying to tell you, in the only way he knows, that he doesn't like it. You can't allow him to continue nipping, but at the same time, you need to convince him that you aren't going to hurt him, and that it is safe to let his defenses down. The good thing is, you don't need to teach him the whole grooming routine in his first couple of weeks at home. It will be months before his coat is long enough to start to mat. Just keep chipping away at it, a tiny bit each day, with lots of encouragement and lots of cookies. He'll get it!


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## Naturelover (Nov 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> Don't fall into the trap of believing that a 9 week old puppy is IN ANY WAY trying to "dominate you". He's an infant. The thought hasn't crossed his mind. He's just doing what puppies do, which is use their teeth. This is your chance to teach good bite inhibition. He needs to learn that people have much more fragile skin than another dog, but it really has nothing to do with dominance.
> 
> Most nipping happens in (too wild) play&#8230; this nipping during grooming is just him trying to tell you, in the only way he knows, that he doesn't like it. You can't allow him to continue nipping, but at the same time, you need to convince him that you aren't going to hurt him, and that it is safe to let his defenses down.


Yeah I don't really subscribe to the whole domination thing, although I think if I relent too much when he is using his teeth, that will reinforce that using his teeth is an effective method, which would be a bad outcome. As for teaching the bite inhibition, I have been trying a few different things (that's probably part of the problem right there- I need to be more consistent about my approach). When playing, I yelp "ouch", or "no", which he learned a bit after I curled his lip under as per breeder's recommendation, then take my hands away, and re-direct him to the appropriate toy. If he doesn't lighten up after that, I have been climbing up on the couch where he can't yet reach, turning away from him, and ignoring him. After he whines for a while and walks away, I then re-engage. Often he will then lick me or bump me with his nose and I praise him for that. But it doesn't always last long. If he is still in piranha mode, I will put him in his ex-pen and give him something else to do in there, e.g. bully stick which is usually in there. He seems frustrated at times and digs like mad in his donut bed. Which I figure is fine and its whole purpose in life is probably be destroyed by him.

When he's calmed down a bit then I try again. Sometimes it seems like he gets either over-tired, or over-energized... He also started with the pant leg pulling, so it is harder to walk away from that without making it more fun. So I try to trade for a different item. Although the ex-pen is small for me to sit in with him, I was thinking of trying that Dunbar technique where I play with him in there and then I step out of the ex pen when he gets too rough. That way he won't be able to chase after me...

I didn't really fancy that I would actually be saying "ouch" or "no" to my dog at this point, but it does seem to jolt him out of piranha mode probably 50% of the time. It will be really good when he has his 2nd shots and we have better options for exercise!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Naturelover said:


> Yeah I don't really subscribe to the whole domination thing, although I think if I relent too much when he is using his teeth, that will reinforce that using his teeth is an effective method, which would be a bad outcome. As for teaching the bite inhibition, I have been trying a few different things (that's probably part of the problem right there- I need to be more consistent about my approach). When playing, I yelp "ouch", or "no", which he learned a bit after I curled his lip under as per breeder's recommendation, then take my hands away, and re-direct him to the appropriate toy. If he doesn't lighten up after that, I have been climbing up on the couch where he can't yet reach, turning away from him, and ignoring him. After he whines for a while and walks away, I then re-engage. Often he will then lick me or bump me with his nose and I praise him for that. But it doesn't always last long. If he is still in piranha mode, I will put him in his ex-pen and give him something else to do in there, e.g. bully stick which is usually in there. He seems frustrated at times and digs like mad in his donut bed. Which I figure is fine and its whole purpose in life is probably be destroyed by him.
> 
> When he's calmed down a bit then I try again. Sometimes it seems like he gets either over-tired, or over-energized... He also started with the pant leg pulling, so it is harder to walk away from that without making it more fun. So I try to trade for a different item. Although the ex-pen is small for me to sit in with him, I was thinking of trying that Dunbar technique where I play with him in there and then I step out of the ex pen when he gets too rough. That way he won't be able to chase after me...
> 
> I didn't really fancy that I would actually be saying "ouch" or "no" to my dog at this point, but it does seem to jolt him out of piranha mode probably 50% of the time. It will be really good when he has his 2nd shots and we have better options for exercise!


You are doing the right things for the most part, though I wouldn't use the word "no". He doesn't know what it means, and very quickly becomes "white noise" because puppies hear it so much.

One thing you should know about puppy nipping is that although I would CERTAINLY continue to work on extinguishing the behavior, there are a number of top trainers who feel that puppy nipping is a phase that goes away whether you try to train them out of it, manage them to prevent it or just ignore it. That means that no matter WHAT you do, he will eventually stop nipping. You just need to decide how much abuse you are willing to put up with before it wanes. 

Also, you mentioned that he sometimes get over-tired or over-energized. That was my experience with Kodi too, and it was often hard to tell which was happening. But I began to see a pattern, where, if he was getting out of control, and I put him in his ex-pen, there was often a brief period of SERIOUS protest, and then he would CRASH and fall sound asleep. I recognised this pattern from my children as toddlers, where they would rev up, almost TRYING to keep themselves awake just when they most needed a nap. Just as with my kids, I soon learned the pattern to this, and started to be able to predict when naps were needed and short circuit some of the frenzy before it got started by enforcing nap times.

I also found that, just like with children, there was a definite "witching hour" often right when I was trying to cook dinner. I'm not sure why human children do this, but I later learned that dogs are crepuscular creatures... Most active at dusk and dawn. With puppies, this can sometimes feed into their over-tiredness. Even as an adult, while it's not so annoying now and he definitely doesn't get out of control, Kodi is most active, and most likely to want to initiate games of tug or fetch in the early evening. It's also why puppies often wake up so early in the morning, though, thank heavens, most can be trained to sleep in a little later!


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## Naturelover (Nov 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> One thing you should know about puppy nipping is that although I would CERTAINLY continue to work on extinguishing the behavior, there are a number of top trainers who feel that puppy nipping is a phase that goes away whether you try to train them out of it, manage them to prevent it or just ignore it. That means that no matter WHAT you do, he will eventually stop nipping. You just need to decide how much abuse you are willing to put up with before it wanes.


Thanks Karen,
Yeah we will keep working on it but I won't freak out too much if he doesn't comply right away!
When can I expect this type of behaviour to diminish, typically?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Naturelover said:


> Thanks Karen,
> Yeah we will keep working on it but I won't freak out too much if he doesn't comply right away!
> When can I expect this type of behaviour to diminish, typically?


Hate to tell you this, but it doesn't REALLY start to wane until after they finish teething&#8230; so about 6 months. But some are MUCH worse about it than others. Kodi did almost no nipping, though he did chew inappropriate things. (like the fringe on our oriental rugs)  There have been a few people on the forum whose puppies were like piranhas!!!


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## Naturelover (Nov 30, 2013)

So back to this grooming thread...

I'm a bit embarassed as I am training to be a dog trainer and I am having a hell of a time getting my own dog to graciously accept the necessary grooming. He's now 8.5 months, and as of late, he has gotten more mouthy, and really tried to get the brush off of him by using his mouth and paws to push us away. I have been enlisting the help of my boyfriend to offer treats as I am working on him, but now I'm afraid I may be reinforcing this undesirable behaviour.

He seems to have gotten a bit worse since his last visit to the Groomer's, after his neuter. I think the amount of de-matting they had to do may have turned him against brushing and so on even more. And it isn't helping that I am probably hurting him as I try to work out mats, no matter how careful I try to be.

I feel like I need to hit the reset button on this whole process, as his coat is continuing to mat and I can't keep up. I can't wash him till I get all the mats out, and I can't get all the mats out without really stressing him out and making his behaviour worse.

I have a new technique in mind, adopted from the DomesticatedManners youtube videos, by teaching an alternate behaviour during grooming : 




The problem is, I need to go slowly to make this successful, and as soon as I am brushing him, I am going over his limit of tolerance and I can't ingrain the new alternate behaviour effectively. Basically I need to be able to not brush him at all for a while while I work my way back up to having him accept it. However, I love his coat right now, and I really don't want to shave him down!! The back is fine as that is easy to get to, but the beard, ears, front legs, and chest are just brutal to keep up with. I can get him cut a little shorter still I guess, to make it somewhat more manageable...

I know the basic premise is go slow, keep it positive, do short sessions, offer treats either during when he is good or after, alternate using my hand for petting and the brush for brushing- but with all that, I simply can't accomplish the level of brushing that is required to get on top of these mats...

I don't have a grooming table or anything, and have been working on him on the couch and/or in my lap. Archer generally has had a very lovely and mellow temperament, but he really does seem to have issues about body handling, which is hard to fathom since I have been working hard on everything with him since he was 9 weeks old!

All of my training has been using +R techniques, although if he is nippy or mouthy during grooming, I do say "No biting", gently but firmly push his head away, and continue. I then praise him and or/offer a treat if he is still. I don't stop until he has relaxed a bit and held still for some time, to try to teach him that that is the way to get it to be over, not by mouthing.

As for tools, I am using the CC wooden pin brush, a metal Madan comb with large and fine teeth, and a flea comb that I use to work on the mats. I have heard many different opinions about slicker brushes. I have a small triangular one, and though Archer doesn't relish the feeling of it, I have been able to get gobs of hair out from behind his ears with it. I think the general consensus is that slicker brushes cause hair breakage? But how much should I care about that? It seems to me that my priority in mat prevention should be getting dead or broken hair out of his coat, and the large metal comb and pin brush seem to do ok but not great on that. The slickers seem to "catch more", or is it just breaking more? Even if it is breaking it, since I am not keeping him in a full/long coat, is that necessarily a bad thing?

The groomer recommended I should get a fold up grooming table with a loop as it helps them to recognize that its time for grooming and to stay still. Can anyone comment on that? Would it really make that big a difference?

Anyone else have a dog that was tough to groom/medicate etc as a youngster that calmed down?


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

The grooming table made all the difference for me. I have found that if I find a mat, especially on Mae, it seems less painful and more effective when I start out with the widest comb I have and gradually work from the outside in till I get to the skin. I don't use a slicker brush at all. There are certain body parts mine don't especially like such as front legs and paws but since I've devised a routine it seems okay. I start with the part they like least, loosen things up with the wooden pin brush and then the comb. They seem to tolerate a smaller comb on their legs rather than my big 7" CC. Don't laugh but I use a neck roll pillow to do ears, face and muzzle after the body is done. My two know once I put that pillow down they lay down inside and put their head down. I'll try to get a video on that it cracks everyone up. I comb Mae everyday about half an hour to 45 mins and Tim can go every other day for about half an hour. Oh and I also found Mae's MOST favorite thing in the world, a flirt pole, which she picks it over Tim. I only use that after I groom and I need to make sure I leave myself enough time to play for 5-10 after every comb out so she has something to look forward to. I'm in BIG trouble if I don't play with her and a treat doesn't do it. Stick with it and try the grooming table, they know it's business when they're up there.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

A grooming table or, if you have the place for it, even a grooming loop hooked to the underside of a cabinet over a conveniently placed counter, can be a godsend. 

I realize now that I was not firm enough with Kodi about grooming when he was a puppy. I see all my breeder friends who just gently lay their dogs down on their sides, the dogs just stay there, totally relaxed, as they work on them. But this has to be started when the puppy is VERY young. Like you, I missed my chance. So the grooming loop gives me the "extra hand" I need to get the job done. With both hands free, I can hold his hair close to the base, and comb out tangles without pulling on his skin. It doesn't hurt, so he stays still. (Well, RELATIVELY still! ) He never bites at the comb any more, but when he was a puppy, the loop stopped that too... He simply couldn't reach! . 

NOW, I can groom him by placing him on a chair or the sofa, and grooming him with no trouble, though I don't think I can be as thorough as I can be when he is on the table in the grooming loop. When he was a puppy, it was a rodeo teying to groom him that way!

When you say that you are "brushing" him, i hope you are using that term loosely. Almost all your geooming should be using a comb, if you really want to work those mats out. I agree with you about the slicker. Although my breeder does use them, I have other people say to avoid them. As far as I'm concerned, when you are getting through coat blowing, and ESPECIALLY if it's not a show dog, do whatever helps you and tour pup get through it. I found the slicker MOST useful when Kodi was blowing coat by using it AFTER I had fully conmbed him out. The slicker seemed to pull out all the loose puppy fluff that would make matts the NEXT day. 

If necessary, you can break up really tough mats by sliding sharp scissors up between the mat and his skin, and cutting vertically, away from the skin. With a big mat, it can take seceral slices, but then you can carefully tease the mat out with your comb.

I honestly don't use a pin brush for anything but fluffing while drying, and then I use wood pin brushes, not metal pin ones.


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## Naturelover (Nov 30, 2013)

With regards to the metal comb, I find Archer doesn't like it as if it snags on mats, it does pull quite a bit, whereas at least with a slicker or the wooden pin brush they have some give to them. The wooden pin brush is nice in the hand and the one Archer tolerates the best, but it doesn't seem to be that great for removing things except maybe big chunks of leaves and possibly a bit of de-tangling.

With my small condo, trying to find room for a grooming table is going to be challenging, but I have a small table I may be able to hook up a moveable grooming loop too. How do you get behind the legs, the armpits, and belly when they are on the table?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Naturelover said:


> With regards to the metal comb, I find Archer doesn't like it as if it snags on mats, it does pull quite a bit, whereas at least with a slicker or the wooden pin brush they have some give to them. The wooden pin brush is nice in the hand and the one Archer tolerates the best, but it doesn't seem to be that great for removing things except maybe big chunks of leaves and possibly a bit of de-tangling.
> 
> With my small condo, trying to find room for a grooming table is going to be challenging, but I have a small table I may be able to hook up a moveable grooming loop too. How do you get behind the legs, the armpits, and belly when they are on the table?


I haven't had a problem grooming his legs with him just standing. for his belly, I hook his front legs over one arm, stand him on his hind legs and use my other hand to groom. At this stage, Kodi rarely gets mats or even knots in his arm pits. But I never tried to comb out arm pit knots. I simply snipped them. IMO there is no way to get arm pit knots out without hurting the dog. And honestly, even in a dog in show coat, it doesn't show if you snip them. in fact, when Kodi was blowing coat, I had the groomer actually shave his pits to prevent mats there. We also thinned the hair in his flanks, as that seemed to be another trouble spot.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Oh, BTW, there are also small easily folding ring-side grooming tables that can be stored in a closet, and opened up in a snap.


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