# Irish Pied



## Penny

Hi Guys---I am cofused on the Irish Pied markings--I always thought the collar had to be full white but I found a website that said "There is also white on the chest up to the bottom of the chin, as well as a full or partial white [/U]collar or shawl around the neck"---What do you think?


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## Tom King

I don't think there are absolute rules for it. For instance Posh has the four white feet, tip on tail, and white on the chest. I don't know anyone who has not considered him an Irish Pied. I've seen a lot with some part of a white "collar", with the white feet and tip on tail, but very few with a complete ring around the neck. I expect most get registered as Irish Pied instead of just black with white, even with an incomplete collar. Beyond that, it just becomes an argument on definition.


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## ShirleyH

Hi Penny,

I'm sure Tom is knowledgeable about this. I've read where a partial collar is okay. Keeper is registered as an Irish Pied and has a full white collar and the four white feet (and legs) and the white on the chest. He also has a white streak on his side. Doesn't really mean a lot I think.

Shirley


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## Tom King

Shirley, Are Keeper's eyebrows that I can see in your avatar silver, and were they tan at birth? If so, we would have registered your Keeper as a Black and Tan with White. In our line, eyebrows usually come with tan. Even without the tan, but that much white, we would have registered him Black with White. I guess a lot is just left up to the Breeder anyway. We don't spend a lot of time worrying over color or what to call it.


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## ShirleyH

Hi Tom,

Keeper's eyebrows are silver and I think they have pretty much always been silver.
Interesting that his Mom's Havanese brown with silver tips has crept into the black which I love. I have no clue what that really means, but have always thought his 
Mama, Bitsy, had the most unusual and beautiful coat. Google Artwyrks Bichons and Havanese and the Havanese pages, our champions, and look at Artwyrks Just a Bit of Elegance. 

Shirley


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## Tom King

The eyebrows that ours have start out as tan, but change to silver as the hair grows, so it's only the few first weeks where you can even see the tan. I've never seen one born with silver eyebrows.


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## Narwyn

Tom's right, it's sort of a matter of opinion - some are clearly one or the other, but there's definitely some who are not quite one or the other.

I typically think of it this way:

- "Black with white" dog as mostly black with some white; almost every 'solid' color breed has some white on their feet, chest, tail tip, etc unless it's meticulously bred out
- "Irish Pied" dog has white markings on legs, chest, face (chin, muzzle, blaze), tail, and a full or mostly collar, probably 25-30% white overall. Face and collars are most telling for me.
- "Parti color" dog as more than 50% white, or lacking the distinct patterning of a Pied dog.


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## ShirleyH

Hi Narwyn,

Yup, lots of interpretation going on, but it doesn't change anything in the wonderful makeup of this breed.

Shirley


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## krandall

Narwyn said:


> Tom's right, it's sort of a matter of opinion - some are clearly one or the other, but there's definitely some who are not quite one or the other.
> 
> I typically think of it this way:
> - "Irish Pied" dog has white markings on legs, chest, face (chin, muzzle, blaze), tail, and a full or mostly collar, probably 25-30% white overall. Face and collars are most telling for me.
> 
> When I think of Irish Pied, I think of the Border Collie color pattern.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Tom, do Havana Browns sometimes have the silver at birth, or does that come later. I think she was saying Havanese Brown meaning Havana Brown?


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## lfung5

I was told Scudder was a pied. He has white on all 4 feet, tip of tail, underbelly, chest , muzzle, small blaze. He has the collar but it does not go all the way around his neck. It covered more of his neck when he was a pup.


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## Becky Chittenden

The Irish pattened on a sheltie means some white on the collar, feet, chest and tails. I asked, early on about the word pied but never got a definitive answer.


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## Tom King

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> Tom, do Havana Browns sometimes have the silver at birth, or does that come later. I think she was saying Havanese Brown meaning Havana Brown?


The Havana Browns are born black. A little later you can't tell they are not black unless they are standing right beside a true black. The adult coat is the real Havana color.

I can't think of any puppies that have had silver at birth. The tan very quickly turns to silver as the hair grows. I can remember only one where the tan stayed tan. I can't remember them all though. We've had a few over 200 puppies in 13 years with all sorts of colors except for chocolate.


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