# Differences in breed?



## paisley (Aug 1, 2010)

I was somewhere today where a woman walked in with a beautiful 13 week Havanese female. I was shocked at how different she was than my 15 week old. First she was twice the size, her hair was silkier and thicker, her nose was a bit more "scrunched". I have always had Goldens so I know that the "look" within this breed can vary greatly. Just wondering if it is also the case with Havanese? Also, since I did pay extra for the Havanese I want to make sure I got what I paid for. I read on another thread where someone was able to prove their dog was not the breed described and was refunded their money. I have had 4-5 other people see her and are surprised to find out she is a Havanese. Someone described her as part Pom part Bichon. That is a pretty good description.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

There is no doubt more genetic diversity in the Havanese breed than probably any other purebred breed.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

I got Rosie at 16 weeks old. She did not have the undercoat at the time. In fact, I was surprised when it started growing in. Her little tail was not filled out, but she did hold it over her rear. Her nose is not scrunched in either--looks like all the rest now. Post some pictures of her so we can see. We love pictures.


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## waybrook (Sep 13, 2009)

Panda was 6.5 lbs at 15 weeks. She has a longer snout, not scrunched. There does seem to be quite a bit of diversity in Havs. European lines tend to be smaller, less "sturdy" (I think). Lucile is right - we love pictures!!!


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Yes, some have long snouts and some don't, I've noticed that at all of the playdates and the havs are from all different breeders, so they don't all look the same,

Although, most people I meet have never even heard of a havanese much less have ANY clue what they are supposed to look like. I"m pretty good at spotting them out, but I did mistake a bichon for a hav once, and short hair havanese, well..they have a unique look as well.

Kara


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

One of the puppies we considered was very slender with longer legs. I thought it looked more like a Cavanese (King Charles Cavalier/Havanese). Very cute and sweet but we wanted the sturdy and bigger Hav. Everything we own is on the sturdier side. I believe in oak. :biggrin1:

(sidenote: also when I asked the breeder for the registered names of the parents, she didn't never replied again. hmmm... maybe it was a Cavanese! :suspicious


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Snout is such a weird word, it only really seems appropriate for a pig...


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## Pixiesmom (Jul 31, 2008)

My two are very different. Pixie has a dense, thick coat that you cannot run a comb through. She has more of (and I hate to coin this cheesy phrase, *but*) a teddy bear face, and shorter legs. MiG has more of a "roman nose" for sure, longer legs, straighter, silkier hair that a comb glides through. He just seems to be lankier, and she's like a little Ewok.


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## SnickersDad (Apr 9, 2010)

When Lynda and I first started looking at the Havenese as a breed the one thing we really desired is the personality(s) the Breed displays. And that's what we got with Snickers --> she displays all of the attributes of a Havanese. We also got a dog that is a bit broader than we expected, a bit shorter in the nose than is optimum, but has the ideal height and length. Go Figure! We met both the Mom and the Dad and were very satisfied that we were getting the puppy we wanted ---> A puppy that had all of the Havanese traits.

Now, Here comes Snoopy ---- Snoopy's mom is different than Snickers' is. She's a beautiful dog, but her coat isn't as soft and silky as we'd of preferred, but his Dad's is.... there are other differences involved too, but (even though we don't have Snoopy yet) we're sure we'll love him just the same as we do Snickers...

Cheers!

Jim and Lynda and Snickers and soon Snoopy too.


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## RikiDaisyDixie (Apr 15, 2008)

*mine came from the same breeder and still are a bit different...*

Daisy has a much silkier coat, though it is less thick. She is also ten pounds and has a nicer tail set.

Riki I think is a bit cuter, he has more of a cotton candy coat. They come from the same line male-wise, so it is their moms who made the difference in their looks.

When we were at Pet Expo everyone asks us what some of the dogs are as there is a huge diversity in size and coat type.


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

Tom King said:


> There is no doubt more genetic diversity in the Havanese breed than probably any other purebred breed.


I agree with Tom! Just looking at all of our dogs on the forum I can see such a wide range of looks. But, they are all adorable!

If you have your AKC papers, I don't think you have to worry about your puppy not being a Havanese. I, too, am surprised that you know that many people that know what a Havanese is! Here in south GA no one has ever even heard of them!


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

My guys are very different in coat texture and weight, Bailey being heavier in both. Milo and Ruby OTOH, are smaller, have the same face shape and look and the really silky coat.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

pjewel said:


> My guys are very different in coat texture and weight, Bailey being heavier in both. Milo and Ruby OTOH, are smaller, have the same face shape and look and the really silky coat.


And yours all came from the same breeder, didn't they Geri? So you would think she was working toward her vision of th "ideal" hav. Just goes to show that even the breeders don't always know what they're going to get!<g>

Same with Kodi... both his parents are right in the middle of the size range for the breed, and Kodi, while a very nice representative of the breed otherwise, is over size for the breed standard.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

My two are different in body type. Kodi is the bigger, more sturdy type dog and he has a combo cottony/silky wavy coat. Shelby is smaller and her frame is smaller, also. She has a straighter, but still wavy coat, a little on the silky side. 

Their head shapes are very similar, so they do look alike. Everyone thinks Shelby is a shi tzu, I think because she is black and white. They think Kodi is a "designer" dog, and I think it's because of his coloring, also.

BTW, where did you get you Hav?


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## LuckyOne (Sep 3, 2009)

Einstein and Watson are litter mates but they are so different. Face shape and nose position are the same but Watson is much stockier and Einstein is really petite and slender but they are only a half pound off at roughly 12.5 and 13 lbs. I rarely find someone who has ever heard of this breed. Watson has a really fluffy coat with just a touch of what I would describe as wiry hair. His nickname is Mr. Fluffy. Einstein has hair like silk. Go figure. Their personalities are very different too and they talk differently as well. I can always tell who's talking without seeing them. Sometimes Einstein sounds just like a cat even though he has never lived with one. LoL


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## paisley (Aug 1, 2010)

I have uploaded some pics. Not sure how much you can tell from them. She was whelped on May 21 so she is not quite 4 months. Wondering how much she is still going to grow. Good news that her kennel cough is finally gone!! She is a crazy dog though. She runs around like a devil dog when she gets worked up. Drives the Golden nuts! She has more of a "fluffy fur" still pretty straight but fine and puffy.


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

OMG!! She is so stinking cute!! I love her ears! Does she prick them up like that when she is going pounce? :biggrin1:

She would rule me. No will power against the cuteness.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Oh she is downright adorable, and soooo fluffy! 

Kara


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## paisley (Aug 1, 2010)

Her ears are like that all the time which when looking at everyone else's pics I can see your pups' ears hang down. They look like terrier or yorkie ears. She works them a lot. Her tail though does curl over her back.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

She is cute--to fit the standard though for the havanese.....her ears should not be up like that. Is she a mixed breed?


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## waybrook (Sep 13, 2009)

paisley said:


> Her ears are like that all the time which when looking at everyone else's pics I can see your pups' ears hang down. They look like terrier or yorkie ears. She works them a lot. Her tail though does curl over her back.


In your avatar pic her ears are down. Did they just recently begin to prick up? The tail curl is a definite Hav trait - and how cute is that face???


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## paisley (Aug 1, 2010)

Julie said:


> She is cute--to fit the standard though for the havanese.....her ears should not be up like that. Is she a mixed breed?


As she gets older I am seeing fewer Havanese traits. My vet today agreed that she does not have a standard Hav look. I am considering getting the Wisdom test done which might give me a better idea of what breeds she is. Her ears were fairly floppy when we got her but as she grew they began to stick up more and more. She runs with them behind her like a bunny. Kind of cute! When she is alert and listening they are straight up.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Your vet is probably right, she might be a mix..she still is as cute as a button though...and it looks like she's listening to you  

Kara


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## LilyMyLove (Jul 11, 2009)

The hair and the ears looks like a baby pomeranian. Maybe she's a Pomanese.


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## paisley (Aug 1, 2010)

LilyMyLove said:


> The hair and the ears looks like a baby pomeranian. Maybe she's a Pomanese.


I compared the pics of Poms and Havs. Poms have smaller ears that stick up. Hers are Hav ears that stick up! If you put them down then she looks Havvy. We call her "Half a pom".


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Hava pom pom?? :cheer2::cheer2::cheer2::biggrin1:


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

She definitely has the Havanese 'I shall melt you with one look and you will be my slave' eyes. :biggrin1:


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## LilyMyLove (Jul 11, 2009)

She is adorable no matter what the breed. Where did you get her that you are concerned about if she is a true Hav or not? Does she have papers? That would help.


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

You should take a pic of just her ears and submit it to the September Photo Challenge - Havabstracts. or maybe one eye and ear. some artsy shot.  I love some of the shots from that thread.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

paisley said:


> Her ears are like that all the time which when looking at everyone else's pics I can see your pups' ears hang down. They look like terrier or yorkie ears. She works them a lot. Her tail though does curl over her back.


In the avatar picture her ears are down, how old was she there? Whatever she is a keeper she is darling!!! If you are really concerned that she is not Havanese there are DNA testing you can do, I have seen some for about 75.00 I think..thought about that for Sir Winston, but have not done that yet.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Boy is she cute!!!! If you know her parents names you can look them up if they are AKC. Hav' s should have drop ears. My two are so different! My girl has thicker ears that is how I would describe them that I see in some of the Canadian stock. Her dad is Canadian. Her coat is growing and she is white/red so I don't expect it to be as silky as Yogi's, I could be wrong. No matter what your puppy is sure cute!!!!!


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

Paisley- if I remember correctly you got her from Petland, right?
There is no saying what she could be- purebred, mixed breed, you will probably never know. She was probably bred at a puppy mill then sold to Petland.
Not so sure I would trust those 'what's in your dog' tests either. I remember hearing of someone who took there KNOWN purebred dog and the results came back that it was a crazy mix. Personally I think it's just a ploy to make money.
The bottom line is that she is adorable. I would just love her for who she is and not worry what she 'is or isn't'...... give her a big belly rub from me!


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I agree. She's adorable and she's yours. It doesn't matter now what she is or isn't. Just love her, watch her grow and have fun. It is so difficult to know what you're getting when you buy a pup in a place like Petland. The problem is, they tell people they're buying a ____________, you fill in the blank, but they don't even necessarily know themselves. The difficulty one has as a consumer, before you find out there's a better way to buy, is you trust them to sell you what you believe you're buying. That's why it's crucial to get our puppies from a reputable breeder. It's a learning process for all of us.


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## LilyMyLove (Jul 11, 2009)

MopTop Havanese said:


> Paisley- if I remember correctly you got her from Petland, right?
> There is no saying what she could be- purebred, mixed breed, you will probably never know. She was probably bred at a puppy mill then sold to Petland.
> Not so sure I would trust those 'what's in your dog' tests either. I remember hearing of someone who took there KNOWN purebred dog and the results came back that it was a crazy mix. Personally I think it's just a ploy to make money.
> The bottom line is that she is adorable. I would just love her for who she is and not worry what she 'is or isn't'...... give her a big belly rub from me!


Unfortunately there is no way to know if thats the case. If I remember correctly, the last post we had like this was from someone who purchased a "Havanese" from Petland and discovered it was not as it had ears like this. It was a very sweet dog and deserving of a home. She kept it and spoke to the people at Petland and was able to get some money back but kept her baby as it had found a good home with her and would be bad for it to go back to the petshop.

On a side note had anyone heard from her lately to see how Cuba is doing?

I have heard the same thing about those genetic tests.

If you are still curious and are able to get the breeder's name from Petland, you can fill out a form on this website so they can get info for you about your puppy: http://www.petshoppuppies.org/psppuppyreport.htm

She looks like an absolute doll and a great companion. Enjoy her.


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## paisley (Aug 1, 2010)

She is a doll. All the kids adore her and my husband has even developed quite a sweetness for her! I am not so worried about her "mix" as I am thinking about how big of a stink do I make with Petland b/c I paid a premium for a breed that I do not have. The still shouldn't make claims and then charge extra for something that isn't true. Not good business. I need to decide how much hardball I am willing to play with them as I am sure they don't want negative advertising. Her ears were floppy for awhile so I guess we will just wait and see what her "final" look will be! Guess it will be a surprise! Her ears make her look like more of a rabbit the way she twitches them around and tucks them behind her when she runs. She looks like a Hav from behind and lays with her legs straight out behind her. She is unique.


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## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

See if you can find the thread about Cuba the puppy[not the place]as she had just the same experience as you and she may be able to help you go down the right route with regards to getting some sort of a refund.But luckily for you Paisley looks like a great character with the cutest appearance.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I agree with the others, you should make them aware that they are mis advertising the dogs, its hard to say if *they* are doing it to make a premium profit off of a purebred or if it was sold to them *as* a purebred, but whichever the case should be stopped because, well...its lying.

I've also heard those tests are a scam, I think it can be done but a real accurate dna reading cost a whole lot more than what some of these companies are charging.


Kara


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

You won't hear people who know what they are talking about saying that the Mars Veterinery tests are worthless. It's funded by the Mars family that's listed in the top ten on any worldwide list of the most wealthy families in the world. They aren't doing hundred buck tests just to make more money. Maybe they would be if people weren't still buying candy, so the argument that it's just to make money is not a valid one.

Even Mars will just give a probability, but they can certainly tell for certain that one chromosome is different from another and there are good data bases of breed specfic DNA. Soon after AKC started keeping records of stud dog DNA, the director of that department said he could look at the DNA printout and guess which breed it was most of the time and that was of course not even a scientific comparison with computers. The trouble is there are a lot of people who want to believe what they want to and can discount science just to satisfy their beliefs.

My comment earlier in this thread on genetic diversity wasn't just an off-the-cuff comment. Genetic diversity is stated as a factor of how many genes are available per locus, but really it's just figured as how many different chromosomes are availble for each location.


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## paisley (Aug 1, 2010)

The vet gave me a brochure for the DNA testing. It is called "Wisdom Panel" and it is done through Mars Veterinary. It says it gives 90% accuracy. As I had absolutely no plan to breed or show so it matters not what her lineage is, but it would be a good tool to take with me back to the store. They had plenty of "mixes" for sale that day so I see no need to pass off a pure breed as most people don't seem to care as long as it has potential to be a good pet. The store needs to make it right with the customer. Whatever mix she is did turn out pretty cute. Her ears are big but not oversized for her slight body. After excellent care from the vet she is very healthy now and has gained over 3 pounds since we brought her home. I like this vet so much I am planning to stay with him. He is associated with Ohio State Veterinary school, also. Even though she checked out healthy he did not want to continue her vaccines until I was comfortable doing them and at that he wants to spread them out one at a time over a course of weeks. I really appreciated that. Even though this vet was offered by Petland they have no association with them other than if you go to them for the first visit it is covered. Since she had a cough at her first visit ALL rx's visits, x-rays were covered. As this went on for 7 weeks there were many visits and follow ups so Petland got a bit soaked for that. No guilt there.
Thanks for all the good advice.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

Tom King said:


> You won't hear people who know what they are talking about saying that the Mars Veterinery tests are worthless. It's funded by the Mars family that's listed in the top ten on any worldwide list of the most wealthy families in the world. They aren't doing hundred buck tests just to make more money. Maybe they would be if people weren't still buying candy, so the argument that it's just to make money is not a valid one.
> 
> Even Mars will just give a probability, but they can certainly tell for certain that one chromosome is different from another and there are good data bases of breed specfic DNA. Soon after AKC started keeping records of stud dog DNA, the director of that department said he could look at the DNA printout and guess which breed it was most of the time and that was of course not even a scientific comparison with computers. The trouble is there are a lot of people who want to believe what they want to and can discount science just to satisfy their beliefs.
> 
> My comment earlier in this thread on genetic diversity wasn't just an off-the-cuff comment. Genetic diversity is stated as a factor of how many genes are available per locus, but really it's just figured as how many different chromosomes are availble for each location.


Thanks Tom, I too understand the tests are very reliable, but now know a name to put with the tests.


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

We did one of those tests as a gag gift for my mom's dog, Lucky. He was a stray. The results were a riot!! Lucky was 'mostly' beagle, golden retriever, and basset hound but he had trace bits of ... wait for it... miniature pinscher and Italian greyhound.


um... yay, right. :suspicious:

Lucky definitely has some type of hound in him but Italian Greyhound?


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

It sounds like you have found an excellent vet! But, if you paid way more for Paisley than was being charged for the mixed breeds then I would definitely go back to the pet store. Even if they didn't purposely misrepresent her breed it is still their mistake. Since Tom King thinks the Mars Company is a reputable one then it would be good to have the testing done so you could take the results with you when you talk to them.

Paisley is such an adorable little girl and I'm sure you love her no matter what her breed! This is just a good example of what can happen when you don't go with a reputable breeder, though. This is something that I have really learned from the forum since I became a member. I wish I had known so much of this before I got Abby! Enjoy your girl as I am enjoying mine!!!


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

I say save your money and don't do the DNA, unless you really think it will get you some satisfaction with PetLand. I guess if you make a big enough fuss,they might refund you some money, but I doubt it. Your puppy is so adorable, just enjoy her. When people ask, just say she is a Havanese.


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## LilyMyLove (Jul 11, 2009)

Tom King said:


> You won't hear people who know what they are talking about saying that the Mars Veterinery tests are worthless. It's funded by the Mars family that's listed in the top ten on any worldwide list of the most wealthy families in the world. They aren't doing hundred buck tests just to make more money. Maybe they would be if people weren't still buying candy, so the argument that it's just to make money is not a valid one.


Not to be nitpicky Tom, but they are more like Top 20 in the US, not the world. Respectfully, People who are that wealthy did so by selling things for a profit, not just out of the goodness of their hearts. I am not saying I know conclusively that the tests are worthless, but their wealth is not evidence that they are valid. I think more evidence is required to make that assessment. I have had business dealings with the Mars family and know that they are actively looking for businesses to acquire and new ways to make money so its not as if they rest on their laurels and collect M&M money. Its not so far fetched that someone would sell a test that was not completely accurate to turn a profit. Wealthy people generally like to continue being wealthy.

If you want to do the test for fun, great. DNA testing is very expensive and much is conjecture about it at this time. I have had some done for health issues that some doctors swear by (such as Mayo clinic) and others say is fraud.

Paisley, The other woman who had this issue with the same store was able to get a refund, I think that as you did pay for a purebred Havanese you should get some money back, at least that is less money going into their pockets so they can turn around and continue to mistreat and breed these dogs.


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## sashamom (Jan 12, 2009)

When Sasha had her summer "shave" the groomer trimmed the hair on her ears so short that she held them up like that. I think she was trying to avoid the tickle of the short hair in ears. Maybe her ears will fold down as her hair grows. Sasha's ears are back to normal now. Linda


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I haven't researched any of the DNA/for profit/or not companies, I just have heard from a few people in my town who did this (not sure with what company) have been disappointed and disagree with the results, I would probably thoroughly research the reliability and reputation of them all before I sent a check to any of them.

Tom, have you had dealings with Mars?

I really don't know anything about Petland either, we don't have one here...but it wouldnt' hurt to approach them first before spending your $ on this DNA test with your concerns and see what they have to say, you may not need to go this DNA route, they might be willing to address it, its worth a shot anyways.

Kara


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I think she is probably a yorkie mix of some kind. Maybe a yorkie-poo or something like that. Either way--she is cute and you love her so just when someone asks you what she is........you can say.....she is a love muffin!


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

Julie said:


> I think she is probably a yorkie mix of some kind. Maybe a yorkie-poo or something like that. Either way--she is cute and you love her so just when someone asks you what she is........you can say.....she is a love muffin!


Oh my goodness, we will now have a whole group looking for Love Muffins!!


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## LuvCicero (Mar 31, 2008)

Paisley, She is a little doll and looks like she has great attention...or loves the camera!! I know she is going to be a wonderful member of your family. I would like to say that if I were you I would take her back to the place you got her and ask to speak with the manager. I would ask him if 'he' thinks those are Hav ears and tell him you can show him lots of pictures to prove they are not. I don't think you need to be armed with a DNA test. You should not have to pay the price of a Hav and they should not be lying about what they are selling. If they knew, then that is a case of false advertising. It may be that they didn't know since her ears were down as a puppy and she has the Hav face to me....so they need to know they were lied to!!! Maybe it would keep them from buying from the person they are dealing with.  And you deserve some, if not all, of your money back for not getting what you paid for -- to buy toys and treats for that baby!! I think sooner would be better than later in this case.


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## paisley (Aug 1, 2010)

sashamom said:


> When Sasha had her summer "shave" the groomer trimmed the hair on her ears so short that she held them up like that. I think she was trying to avoid the tickle of the short hair in ears. Maybe her ears will fold down as her hair grows. Sasha's ears are back to normal now. Linda


That is very interesting. I guess time will tell what happens once she gets heavier fur on her ears. They flop when she runs but when she is attending they are straight up like a Yorkie's would be. Since her ears were down when I bought her I honestly cannot remember when they started to perk up. 
I'm just grateful that she is finally healthy and continues to grow. She has a lot of moxie for a 4 pound pup! We have gone 2 whole days without a house accident!! Longer than that for solid matter! I won't miss the puppy teeth stage though!
Good advice on dealing with the pet store. I am definitely going to go in and take my paperwork with me. Who knows. Maybe I will get a sympathetic manager that day. At twice the price I definitely should be compensated for something.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

LuvCicero said:


> Paisley, She is a little doll and looks like she has great attention...or loves the camera!! I know she is going to be a wonderful member of your family. I would like to say that if I were you I would take her back to the place you got her and ask to speak with the manager. I would ask him if 'he' thinks those are Hav ears and tell him you can show him lots of pictures to prove they are not. I don't think you need to be armed with a DNA test. You should not have to pay the price of a Hav and they should not be lying about what they are selling. If they knew, then that is a case of false advertising. It may be that they didn't know since her ears were down as a puppy and she has the Hav face to me....so they need to know they were lied to!!! Maybe it would keep them from buying from the person they are dealing with.  And you deserve some, if not all, of your money back for not getting what you paid for -- to buy toys and treats for that baby!! I think sooner would be better than later in this case.


This is great advice in my opinion.

I think it is sad that you did not buy from a reputable havanese breeder,since you were seeking a havanese...that being said--you purchased her and have a cute lil' dog to love that needs a home. I don't want to sound harsh...but they sold you a mixed breed puppy,not a havanese and I believe whole-heartedly you should go in there and raise some hel_ and get part of your money back. You may need it for any health issues that pop up or like Dale says...just to have extra treats or good quality kibble or something. They took advantage of you and false advertised. They should be made aware of that and stand behind their bad business dealings.

You go girl! :thumb:


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## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

Thumper said:


> Snout is such a weird word, it only really seems appropriate for a pig...


Do you think perhaps the lady Havs have shorter snouts,and the gentlemen Havs have longer snouts?only when I went to my breeder that seemed to be the case with her dogs,and it is certainly true of my two,you could pretty much tell at a glance which ones were male,and which were female.


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## paisley (Aug 1, 2010)

Here is Paisley's newest "look"!! Last week her right ear began drooping. Now it is always drooped while the other is still up. LOL!! Now I guess she really is "Halfanese"!!!


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

That is so funny - wonder if the other one will follow suit? She's a cutie no matter what her ears decide to do!


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