# Beamer Shaking - is this normal?



## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Hi all..

For the 2nd day in a row, Beamer has gotten the shakes after eating lunch! I have not witnessed this since I'm at work. This is what my Mother in Law says.

He is shaking as if he was cold or like a person shakes when they have the chills and/or a fever.. starts and stops..

He was fine the whole time after work yesterday...

Could this have anything to do with his new raw diet? This did not happen after dinner though or any other time in the past 5 days he has been eating raw..

What else could it be???? I think I may call the vet and see...

Thanks!
Ryan


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Didn't this also happen when you fed him that stew awhile back?

Ryan, maybe you need to have him checked out. Maybe its NOT the food and something else is going on.  I hope it is nothing, maybe a nervous habit? But I would see what you can find online and also ask the vet.

Kara


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

I'm so sorry to hear about Beamer's shaking. I don't want to scare you but has he ever had a liver problem?? I think you should call the vet.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

I would call the vet just to be safe - he probably is doing it on purpose cause he wants Daddy to come home from work and play!!


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Whe we fed him that homemade stew he was just breathing fast and panting... From what my MIL says, he is actually shaking/shivering.. like he does when we give him a bath, and he shivers in the towl, or during the hair dryer process if he is scared...

I've never seen this during meal times.. i was with him for every meal on sat/sun and monday.. and dinner yesterday...
Very odd?


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Is shaking and the liver somehow connected??

Thanks..
Ryan


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

Is she feeding him the raw and if so is she serving it at a colder temp so that he is shivering due to temperature?


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Tell her to watch his breathing..and keep an eye on him tonight real close. Are you there when he eats dinner?

Maybe its just uber cold at your mil's? I hope he's alright.

Kara


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Well the raw is thawed in the fridge since last night... still a bit frozen with ice crystals.. could that be the cause??


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

ryan,
I dont want to scare you but read about liver shunts online. You can talk to you vet about a SA 320 bloodtest or bile acid test. The only reason i mention this is because he is small and his reaction after eating. Pm me anytime. It might not be a shunts but it runs in the breed and its worth checking into


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

My dogs eat the raw still very cold (slightly frozen sometimes) but have never seen shakes. But he may be more sensitive to the temperature of his food.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Could be he is cold, but Oreo has been on a raw diet for about a week now and I feed it to him cold and he does not shiver. Actually at the groomers they really shaved him short and he has not shivered from the cold. I would simply let the vet look into it, so that you have a piece of mind.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Just in case, keep him on no protein until u see the vet. That mean rice with maybe a bit of chicken broth. No meat for now. If it is a shunt protein is not good.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Shaking can be related to liver shunts. Is the food real high protein? I have been reading a lot about liver shunts because I am worried about Lulu. She is 20 weeks, weighs 4.4 lbs and hasn't gained an ounce in 3 weeks. I am going to have her checked out. Please, I don't want to scare you, but.....


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Yikes, Ryan!

I was just googling the liver shunts and shaking after eating is a symptom! Get him into the vet asap for testing!  And like Linda said, watch the protein until you get the results back. How much does he weigh now?

Kara


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

Call the VET ASAP let us know what the vet says I hope that he is ok :hug:


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## dschles (Jan 23, 2007)

What an amazing group this is to be able to give such important feedback so quickly. I would never have thought liver problem from shaking, but after googling liver shunt, it is definitely a symptom, as is a poor appetite. I certainly hope we are all over-reacting, but please get Beamer to the vet as soon as you can!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Yes Ryan- please let us know about Beamer.


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Ryan,
this is scary, keeping my fingers crossed for lil Beamer!!! Please let us know soonest, what the vet found out!


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Ryan prayers to you & Beamer until you find the answer. Hopefully the little guy just does not like cold food. Keep us updated, Hugs.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Ryan,

Could it be, she just comes over and feeds him and leaves? My mother in law called me because she said my maltese was shaking and should she give her more nutracal. It was actually in the morning, Isabelle associates people getting ready to leave, and she she has seperation anxiety to the point, of shaking. She knows she can no longer bite at your heels!

Please keep us posted but just to be safe, I would get the blood test ran.

Amanda


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Yes, prayers and hugs for you and little Beamer.


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

Ryan,
I hope it turns out to be nothing, but probably should have some test done on Beamer. 
Casper did shake for the first time yesterday, that I have seen like that, alittle more than during a bath. We were at the vet with our new puppy and Casper was shaking in his dog bag. I was like Casper, "What is wrong, the vet is seeing the puppy?" But I have not seen him shake like that before, but he has some separation anxiety problems and doesn't like the vet, but he has never shaked before at the vets.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Ryan, 
Hopefully Amanda is right and Beamer just doesn't want your MIL to leave him. Better to be safe than sorry though. Let us know what the vet says.

Susan


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

My thoughts and prayers are with you and I hope that there is nothing but good news for Beamer. I too am hoping its separation anxiety too.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

I called the vet but all were in apointments.. still no call back yet...

The only thing that makes me feel a bit better is that he just had his neuter operation 3 weeks ago.. he had full bloodwork done to make sure all organs were functioning well. So, obviously there was nothing wrong a few weeks ago?? Can a liver shunt just pop up over night??


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Oh our sweet little Beamer!! I hope he is fine, but always best to check. If it is separation anxiety, maybe you should send him to me for the day!! Might be a little hard logistically but you will just have to move!! Kisses from all his furry friends!!


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Too bad I live so far  I would be so happy to take care of him for you  Hey, if ever you and Marija want to get away, I would be happy to offer my home to Beamer. 

Well, if they did the blood work prior to his neuter, it just may be anxiety.... Awww, poor Beamer...


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Ryan I feel better knowing that he had blood work done just 3 weeks ago- but i would still check with the vet- and be sure to let him know you switched to the NV which is 95% protein. What was beamer eating before? Hugs to both you and Beamer.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

hopefully the vet will call back and answer your question about the bloodwork. Just ask if it would indicate a liver shunt? But if he's a picky eater and especially if he continues to shake like that, it is worth getting him checked out. He's had some unusual reactions to eating the last few months  But like others said, maybe the timing is coincidental and he is anxious. Has he done that before when he is nervous or anything?
Does he sleep alot? Fatigue?

Kara


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Beamer was eating kibble and cheese pretty much every meal.. and cooked chicken/beef sometimes..


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Kara,

I'm not sure about sleeping alot.. I mean it hink he does sleep alot.. but hes a dog.. everyone here says there dogs sleep alot.. so im not sure of a comparison.

He WAS a picky eater.. he will devour his 2.5 raw medallions in under a minute.. 

Ughh.. i gonna call the vet back.. cant stand waiting..


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Just keep calling till you get someone!!!


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Hmm..well its sounding better! I think if he had a liver shunt it would be more challenging to get him to eat. Gucci is a picker eater, but I really believe that is Havanese-quirk because she is growing. I think if something was wrong with Beamer, they would've caught it on the bloodwork. Did they ever tell you why they kept him overnight? or is that standard procedure with the vet you use?

Kara


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Radar was kept overnight... Beamer came home after i was done work..


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

freeway1976 said:


> Radar was kept overnight... Beamer came home after i was done work..


DOH! That's right. :brick:

He's probably okay. Relax! Just have the vet nurse pull his labwork and chat w/ you.

Kara


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## MaddiesMom (Apr 1, 2007)

Hi Ryan- I'm hoping Beamer's shaking after eating doesn't mean anything. But just to let you know, the best test for determining a liver shunt is the bile acid test, which is not done on normal blood work. The dog is fasted, blood is drawn, then a couple of hours later, a fatty meal is given (at the vets), then the blood is retested again. Also, some vets do an ammonia tolerance test. These are the most common tests for liver shunts other than injecting dye into the liver to determine blood flow. Hope this helps.


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

Ryan, clear out your PM box when you get a chance! I am sure everyone is worried and has filled it up with well wishes :biggrin1:


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Ryan, how scary! I hope that Beamer is doing well! It might just be the separation anxiety, but I will still have him checked at the vet for a liver shunt just in case. :hug:


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

Have you heard anything back yet? I hope everything's ok with Beamer! I've got my fingers crossed that he's jsut fine--still I think you should see about getting him tested. Let us know what happens!


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## Suuske747 (May 9, 2007)

My thoughts are with you!! *crossing fingers*


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Ryan,
How long has Beamer been staying with your mother-in-law? It could be seperation anxiety, however, I think you are smart to call the vet. Be sure to ask if they did a liver value when they did the full blood work-up before his surgery.

Keep us posted.


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## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

Any news yet from the Vet? How is Beamer tonight? Hope he is feeling better!


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## Doggie Nut (Oct 20, 2006)

I have a friend from Australia who has a Westie and he was shaking and they diagnosed him with "small white dog shaking disease"......Yeah, I know sounds weird but that was the diagnosis. I had never heard of it. Talked to the vet yet??


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## Sissygirl (Aug 8, 2007)

Hope everything is ok with little Beamer.

Let us know as soon as you can.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Ryan,
Don't worry yourself until you get the tests back. It could be a million different thing. I always jump to the liver shunt diagnosis, because Bella had one, so they all do! 

Bella shivers when she is scared. She shakes during thunderstorms & and when i drive on rough roads or long distances.

The vet will probably want to do a full blood panel. The best test if you think it's a liver problem is the SA 320, I think that the name. If his liver levels are elevated then they will do the bile acid test. 

FYI Here is Bella's story:
When I got Bella at 7 months old she was 4lbs. My vet said she was small and I was alarmed. I did not know how big she was suppose to be at 7 months. I started reading and I was sure she had a shunt. I asked my vet to do the test, but she said Bella was fine. She acted fine, except was she was skinny and a picky eater. At 8 mo she needed dental surgery, they did a full blood test and everything was normal even her liver. About 7 months later I noticed she was extra thirsty and lost a 1/2lb. I went to my vet and told them to do a bile acid test. They told me I was crazy but they would do it. Well, you know the outcome. 

I really hope it's something minor, but let us know. I am concerned for him, but know he is in good hands.

Linda


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Just Checking In Ryan. Any news? how did Beamer do tonight when he ate? hugs and belly rubs --


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## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

Ryan--I am here to add my good wishes for Beamer. Keep us posted when you know more.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Hi all..

Ok, so I took Beamer to the vet this evening....

We took a look at his blood panel from his surgery lst month and all numbers were in the normal range. (including his liver).

I told the vet to do the test again and they did.. I will not have the results till tomorrow morning as they were almost closed by the time i got there. I should have asked for the acid test, but i forgot...

I told the vet that he just switched over to raw diet. My vet is not a fan of the raw diet at all.. She thinks its not a good diet for a puppy or any dog for that matter. (I know there is a big debate going on raw vs non-raw)

So, she examined him and he was normal...
I fed him his raw dinner and he was 100% fine...

Perhaps its nothing to worry about, since I've never seen it irst hand, its hard for me to evaluate. hmmmmm

We got him weighed today and he is 6.71 pounds now! he has gone up almost a full pound from last month during his neuter op. (he was 5.8lbs)

Hopefully the test comes back normal. Even if it is normal, should i request the acid test?

Thanks!
Ryan


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Ryan, it's good that Beamer is back to his old self! I hope that the blood work comes back saying that his liver is just fine! Let us know what the results are tomorrow. :hug:


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

I'm so happy to hear that Beamer showed no ill symptoms while eating tonight or at the vet. Hopefully it's seperation anxiety, which although it isn't pleasant, it's much less of a worry.

All of our thoughts, prayers and good wishes are with you and little Beamer tonight.

Beverly


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Bev,

I really do not think its seperation anxiety. We have been leaving him at home alone during work days since we got him almost 4 months ago. He always has our parents with him for a acouple of hours a day. Both times he was shaking, it was right after his raw meal, but was on and off for about 3-4 minutes, then he was completely normal. I'm not sure what it could be? maybe its absolutly nothing??
He has had 10 raw meals thus far.. so not quite sue what to make of it..


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

Ryan, sorry to hear about Beemer's problem. Hopefully all will be okay, and it's just something silly, like the food made him cold. 

Sounded like the vet went good and he's gaining weight, that's great.

Keep us posted.


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Ryan~ My prayers continue for you and little Beamie. Sure hope it all comes back normal :hug:


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

I always see smaller dogs shake for no reason at all.. could it not be that he was just nervous or scared of something these 2 times?? Hmmmm...


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

I know my Cooper shakes from thunder or lightening or just loud noises that scare him for some unknown reason. Also my other dog Lily shakes in the car, not from being car sick, just because she doesn't like it I guess. 

Hopefully something just scared him or some other simple explanation. It's so frustrating and scarey for us when there's a problem with our babies.

Beverly


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## MaddiesMom (Apr 1, 2007)

Hi Ryan- Glad to hear that Beamer's gaining weight and his tests were good. You could just wait and see if Beamer ever does the shaking again after eating. If he doesn't, then it may have been just one of those things. If it happens again right after eating, then I'd get the bile acid test (SA320) to make sure. I'd also get an ammonia tolerance test with it. If they're normal, then no worries. Raw diets tend to be high protein diets, and liver dogs can't handle protein well. Beamer's probably just fine. Like Linda, I've had a liver diseased dog in the past, and we tend to be worriers. Kimberly, Maddies breeder, even did a bile acid test on Maddie before I adopted her to relieve my worries. Its not a big test, and only takes a couple of hours. So just keep an eye on Beamer, and hopefully it may never happen again.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

MaddiesMom said:


> Hi Ryan- Glad to hear that Beamer's gaining weight and his tests were good. You could just wait and see if Beamer ever does the shaking again after eating. If he doesn't, then it may have been just one of those things. If it happens again right after eating, then I'd get the bile acid test (SA320) to make sure. I'd also get an ammonia tolerance test with it. If they're normal, then no worries. Raw diets tend to be high protein diets, and liver dogs can't handle protein well. Beamer's probably just fine. Like Linda, I've had a liver diseased dog in the past, and we tend to be worriers. Kimberly, Maddies breeder, even did a bile acid test on Maddie before I adopted her to relieve my worries. Its not a big test, and only takes a couple of hours. So just keep an eye on Beamer, and hopefully it may never happen again.


We are worriers aren't we? I had them do one on Freddie! LOL


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

freeway1976 said:


> Hi all..
> 
> Ok, so I took Beamer to the vet this evening....
> 
> ...


Ryan,
That's great news! I would watch him closely after feedinf, if it happens again do the bile acid. Hopefully it was just a feak thing. Watch him to see if he does it any other times for no apparent reason.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Thinking of you and Beamer this morning Ryan. Keep us updated when you hear back from the vet. :hug:


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## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

this happens to my dog when he hasn't eaten in a bit and gulps his food down. it's almost an instant bloating feeling, maybe the food he is eating is causing this. if the vet give you a clean bill of health, try feeding him in small amounts at a time. i have also given my dog peptobismol, maybe a fourth or an eigth of a spoon, depending on your dogs size. it helps instantly by moving the gas bubbles thru their system. i hope it's something this simple. keep us posted.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I'm glad he's better! Like everyone else said, just watch closely and if he does it again then I'd ask for a bile acid to rule it out.

Poor Ryan  Beamer probably had "brain freeze" and we all panicked and scared the crap outta you! lol I really hope that's all it was, but I guess it is better to be safe and rule it out, right? It might be his 'quirk'.

Kara


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Ryan- I am so glad that things are looking up for Beamer - hopefully the new test will come back negative too! Maybe the raw diet just isnt for him. 
Did your vet tell you why she doesnt really like it?


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## casperkeep (May 16, 2007)

Hey Ryan!!! I hope that Beamer is doing much better!!!! let us know what the vet says. I am curios as to why the vet did not like the raw for puppy's or dogs too!!! Hugs


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

My vet is also "anti-raw", and the arguments against it are mainly the dogs are at risk for bacterias (new strains), tapeworms, worms, The humans are at a higher risk of salmonella, ecoli, etc. Also, with bones there is a chance of injury or impaction, etc. I'm sure there's more I'm just remembering off the top of my head.

If you google risks or dangers of raw, you'll get alot of hits. lol, But the vet told me I'd be better off doing homecooking than raw (If I was dead set on giving up kibble!)

There are arguments FOR and AGAINST everything out there, so you just have to weigh the pros and cons and make the decision that best suits you and your dog(s).

Kara


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

good news ryan. keep us posted.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

My vet was against it until I told her it was the premade and the bones were ground. She was afraid of choking. 
The whole bacteria scare is crazy. Yes, as humans we need to be careful but many dogs have these bacteria's existing in their bodies. Dogs can eat a dead animal that has been rotting for days and not get sick. Their digestive tracts are short. The longer a dog is on raw the more of an iron clad stomach they get.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Yay Beamer!! I am happy to hear that he is fine! I hope the results this morning show the same thing! I am sure my vet will be dead set against it too... Hahahah, oh well, you really can't please anyone. With this raw feeding I am finding Oreo's muscle tone has really increased, he may be thin but he is really buff


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## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

Yay, Ryan, I'm so glad to hear that Beamer is doing well. From a common sense point of view (not a clinical or informed one) I would probably discontinue the raw diet. For some yet unknown reason, it sounds like he's averse to it.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Ryan, how did the Beamster do at lunch today? any word from MIL?


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

It's my parents turn to feed beamer today at my house.. He ate his whole meal and did not shake or anything.. so.. thats good..

I still have not heard anything from the vet yet.. i called,, but they said they are really busy and the vet will call with the results soon.. that was over 2hrs ago!! ughhh

Ryan


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

Kara 
I was told the same thing about raw - Too risky with all that is out there .. You said it well 
The controls are just not good enough .
I was asked why take the chance when you can make we can make it so much better we know what we put in it.. .
Our vet literally said she would do it but she is just too busy and she has big dogs but she is very careful about what brands she uses .. 
I also read - feed your dog their food warm- not hot like at room teperature .. Never feed them food that comes from the freezer or refrigerator which means i warm the homecooked a little before I mix it with the kibble ..
As I said before i use Paul Newman's kibble as it seems to be a good quality - all organic and they need some crunch .. Too have organic on the label means it has to pass some rigorous testing and it was never on recall .


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

How annoying about your vet! I hate it when they don't call back. I hope you get a call soon!

At least it sounds like Beamer is feeling better!


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Ok, I just spoke to the vet, Beamer numbers are completly normal, as is everything else. She said she could do the SA320, but does not see the point. She said she has never seen a dog with a liver shunt which had normal liver numbers. I will think about it.. do it for sure if he does this shake thing again... its only $130...

She also blasted me again for feeding raw... hmmmmmm.. now i feel preasured to stop.. ughhh.. i dont know what to do...

She said i should feed him Hills perscription food, which they sell...
I've heard good things about that kibble, but again, its just a kibble to beamer and i know he will not eat it.. lol...

Maybe should i try the NV Kibble?? or is it pretty much the same as any other kibble?

Ryan


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Ryan, I'm not sure about feeding raw, as I don't do it myself and don't think I ever could, but really in the end it's all about what makes you comfortable and what you think Beamer should be eating. If you like raw, then stick with it... that is if he doesn't have any more shaking, or other adverse, reactions.

I'm not sure switching to yet another kibble is such a great idea. Is it really that good to keep changing kibble brands so much?


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

freeway1976 said:


> Ok, I just spoke to the vet, Beamer numbers are completly normal, as is everything else. She said she could do the SA320, but does not see the point. She said she has never seen a dog with a liver shunt which had normal liver numbers. I will think about it.. do it for sure if he does this shake thing again... its only $130...
> 
> She also blasted me again for feeding raw... hmmmmmm.. now i feel preasured to stop.. ughhh.. i dont know what to do...
> 
> ...


Whew I just found this folder and read through it to hopefully see an answer. 
I stay away from talking about dog foods as much as I can because everyone has their own ideas about it. I give my dogs what they like to eat.


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

Ryan, I am feeding Wellness Core now, and mix a tablespoon of green beans in it and Reece and Nigel can't eat it quick enough. 

Preston on the other hand is on a food strike right now. 

Wellness Core is grain free, it has supplements, vegies and fruits.

You could also get their can food and mix it. That is what I am trying for Preston. It is also grain free.


Glad to hear his test are A-OK


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Paige,

I tried the Wellness Core kibble, he turned his nose up extra fast on that one! hehe

To raw or not to raw, that is the question.... hmmmmmm


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Ryan, I am sure that there must be a kibble out there that he would eat! It would seem to me that if your vet is agains the raw diet, that she has a reason. He may have just turned his nose up because it isnt what he is used to, but if everything is normal with the test results, I would believe that somehow the raw diet might be involved. 
Whatever you decide, I hope that Beamer feels better!!


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## Lo01 (Jul 22, 2007)

Ryan, 
Hank was initially on Merrick's Puppy Plate, but it took forever for him to complete his meal...usually didn't finish it if I took it away after 30 minutes. I went back to the pet food store and collected at least 15 sample packages of kibble to include (Wellness, Timberwolf, Orijen, Chicken Soup..., Avo-Derm, California Natural, Canidae, Healthwise, Honest Kitchen, Innova, Merrick, Nature's Logic, Pinnacle, Solid Gold, and NV) -- we laid them all out on the kitchen floor in small piles and for Hank's dinner, he chose the NV kibble - even after smelling all the brands, he went back to NV. He ate that sample with zest and the rest is history. Given NV's advertisement that their kibble is "biocoated" with freeze dried food, we experimented and added the NV raw to his diet, since it appeared that he liked the flavor. To our pleasant surprise he loved the raw food as well.

I would try to obtain a sample from your local distributor. Wag N Wash (our store), was wonderful since they have a guarantee which stipulates if your pup doesn't like the dog food, or suddenly stops eating his food you can return it for a full refund. We did that with the Merrick food.

I would try your little one on the NV kibble to see if he likes it. Currently Hank is 50% raw and 50% kibble for his meal plan.

Hope this helps,
_*'Lo *_


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Ryan,
I have tried over 2 dozen kibbles and the only one they all eat is Avoderm baked lamb and brown rice. I leave it out all day so they can pick. 

If you are torn about the raw I can email you lots of info if you want. I find vets are not experts on diet and a lot are old school. Just look at the amount of them who still over vaccinate. Can you tell i am anti vaccines and pro raw?!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Ryan, this is great news about Beamer. I agree (from experience) that changing around a lot does make them pickier. Jasper had to have been the pickiest dog on the planet. But now, beginning at a year and a half- he has decided he likes at least some of his food to come from kibble. I know a lot of people say finicky dogs need to be fed at certain times and be given 15 minutes to a half an hour to eat. I have found that both my boys, but especially finicky jasper are doing better and eating more kibble if I leave a bowl down at all times and give them a half of something special at dinner time. In my case it is 2 NV medallions and a meetball (cooked) with what ever greens and carbs I have. But you could certainly- leave down some kibble and just give Beamer a small portion of chicken and veggies or what ever. 

Jassy wouldn't touch the NV kibbles (and I tried all of them) 

Here are some kibbles that finicky Jasper has liked (Maybe they will work for Beamer) 

Jas really, really liked California Naturals lamb and rice puppy - but it gave him the runs

also likes EVO RED MEAT
Innova adult (also gave the runs) 
Back to Basics pork 
Royal Canin Special (made especially for finicky dogs) 
Royal Canin Poodle 

Currently the Kibble I am putting down is a mix of EVO and the Innova (no runs with this mix) 

I came to feel that the high protein of the Evo and the raw alone was perhaps not the best for these little guys (they don't pull sleds after all) But food is very personal and specific to you and your dog. I offer this as only an option of to give you some ideas.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Oh vey, I guess I will be next in line to get blasted about the raw I give Oreo at breakfast. I guess feeding is the same as training methods - everybody has an opinion about it and if someone is happy you can surely bet someone else won't be. I am happy to hear Beamer is much better. Keep an eye on him, but it simply could have been anxiety.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Linda - Yes please! you can send over any info that you have collected on RAW.

Missy - Yeah, I'm going to try and get some samples for NV kibble to see if he likes it.. the coating on it might make it more apealing to him..

Helen - Yeah, my vet is as anti-Raw as they come. She said possibly that is why he is so small.. then i told her i just started 5 days ago.. lol
This is not my regular vet, she is on sybatical for 6 months touring Europe. (she is young and would have been open to raw i bet)
The current vet is the owner of the clinic and did Beamers neuter. She's a great vet for sure! but possibly does not know much about nutrician..


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Heres a question for all:

Can I send in the exam and blood test bill to my vet and recoup some? Would this be covered under the illness category? 

(it was only $160 all in, but might as well try.. ofcourse I'd have to pay the $100 deductable..so I'd only get 80% of $60 back... lol)


Thanks!
Ryan


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

freeway1976 said:


> Heres a question for all:
> 
> Can I send in the exam and blood test bill to my vet and recoup some? Would this be covered under the illness category?
> 
> ...


You could try...It really depends on how you submit the claim. If you say "suspected seizure", or "possible seizure", they may deem that worthy of coverage. You should read over your agreement and see what it covers. You may have to word it "allergic reaction".

Just find out which words to use! 

Kara


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

whitBmom said:


> Oh vey, I guess I will be next in line to get blasted about the raw I give Oreo at breakfast. I guess feeding is the same as training methods - everybody has an opinion about it and if someone is happy you can surely bet someone else won't be. I am happy to hear Beamer is much better. Keep an eye on him, but it simply could have been anxiety.


EVERYTHING is blasted. There is no 'right way' to feed your pet! lol, Plenty of people bash kibble and homecooking, too. Too bad! It makes it all the more confusing for us to figure out what is best for our pets! :frusty:

There really isn't enough research OR regulations on the pet food industry. That's a problem that creates a multitude of problems. lol

Kara


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Yeah, she also spoke about no regulations in North America on pet food. But she did say, if there were gov. regulations, then RAW would be pulled out of all stores.. not sure if thats true or meaningful..


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

freeway1976 said:


> Yeah, she also spoke about no regulations in North America on pet food. But she did say, if there were gov. regulations, then RAW would be pulled out of all stores.. not sure if thats true or meaningful..


One of the problems with raw is the high protein content. That is pretty controversial. Some people think it causes dogs to be aggressive or taxes their organs, because in the wild they eat "grasses and other plants", etc.

But here's the thing.....dogs aren't the same these days! We've domesticated them, so do they really need to eat like they did 100 years ago? lol, They have adapted to domestication.

I don't have anything against raw, I feed Gucci raw sometimes, but I do worry about new strands of bacteria. And I don't like the fact that NV stated that it was human grade inspected, when most of the product is from China. That's deceptive.

I guess it doesn't matter, she won't touch it. lol

Kara


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

here's a good website that answers common questions about raw feeding. I could not post it to groups as I am still having problems with my account.
www.rawfed.com/myths/
If you are still worried about parasites or bacteria just add grape seed extract.


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

Not all raw is so high in protein. The primal is 65-73% protein if I remember correctly and the rest is organic fruits and vegetables. The NV is 95% meat, organ and bone with only 5% being fruits and vegetables. The stated reason that fruits and veggies are mixed in is due to the fact that when a dog eats an animal they also eat the contents of the stomache. I know that some people who do raw also give their dogs a vegetable puree. The NV meat source alone is 95% protein but that is just one part of it. I am not sure what the percentages are on other frozen brands, just those two. 

Also looking at NV's website they do manufacture the raw in their own facility in NE and do testing on all of their products.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

anneks said:


> Not all raw is so high in protein. The primal is 65-73% protein if I remember correctly and the rest is organic fruits and vegetables. The NV is 95% meat, organ and bone with only 5% being fruits and vegetables. The stated reason that fruits and veggies are mixed in is due to the fact that when a dog eats an animal they also eat the contents of the stomache. I know that some people who do raw also give their dogs a vegetable puree. The NV meat source alone is 95% protein but that is just one part of it. I am not sure what the percentages are on other frozen brands, just those two.
> 
> Also looking at NV's website they do manufacture the raw in their own facility in NE and do testing on all of their products.


You must've missed the email from NV to Missy a few pages back about the rabbit being from China? I suppose the other ones are safe, but I happened to buy the rabbit (my luck! lol)

Even 65-70% is considered high, comparatively to kibble that is around 40%.

Personally, I am beginning to believe that each dog is different and all of these companies *think* they are doing the right thing, but with no real solid research going on, how the heck does anyone know for certain? lol

I got several headaches trying to sift through all the books and information on dog nutrition. Conflicting opinions on EVERY corner...and I think the the truth may lie somewhere in between. 

Kara


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## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

*Glad he's ok...*

As a human, I often get chills after eating...I think it's low blood sugar or something. Other than that, I am normal, well as far as health goes! Sometimes I do in fact shiver.

Perhaps he's like me in that regard? 

I personally am not a fan of the raw diet. So if you want to switch it up just for kicks and to see, why not? As long as you're feeding a really quality food [do a search here and there's a link to a page that helps you evaluate your dog food quality]. I think you're ok.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Linda, I thought that grape seeds (and skin and the grape itself) are extremely toxic to dogs... wouldn't the extract be bad for them?

As far as whether or not raw is bad or good for dogs, it's hard to say though there have been some studies that suggest that even the high protein content in puppy food is bad for dogs and that puppy food should never be fed. Since raw has an even higher percentage of protein, it's hard for me to be able to come to grips with it I guess. Plus, the idea of bacteria just scares me.

I have nothing against people who feed it, I guess I just wouldn't be able to do it myself.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

freeway1976 said:


> Ok, I just spoke to the vet, Beamer numbers are completly normal, as is everything else. She said she could do the SA320, but does not see the point. She said she has never seen a dog with a liver shunt which had normal liver numbers. I will think about it.. do it for sure if he does this shake thing again... its only $130...
> 
> She also blasted me again for feeding raw... hmmmmmm.. now i feel preasured to stop.. ughhh.. i dont know what to do...
> 
> ...


Ryan,
Great news!!!!

As for the Hills dog food, any vet that sells it, pushes it to their clients as they make a huge profit off of it as well. Stick with what is working for Beamer, it is good for him too.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Lina said:


> Linda, I thought that grape seeds (and skin and the grape itself) are extremely toxic to dogs... wouldn't the extract be bad for them?


I looked this up awhile ago in response to someone else's question. Grapes are toxic to dogs, but they don't know specifically what part of the grape:

From this link: http://www.peteducation.com:80/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1939&articleid=2409
Toxin 
Thought to be due to an unknown compound in the "fleshy" part of the grape. There have been no problems associated with grape seed extract.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Oh, yes...

ALOT of vet's push "Hills", they make a profit what they sell in their clinics, too. These pet food companies spend alot of money romancing vet students, supporting events at colleges, and whatnot...handing out free pens! ound: They are alot like drug reps! So do your own research, and I agree...if Beamer is doing good on raw...stick w/ it!

Kara


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## MaddiesMom (Apr 1, 2007)

Kathy said:


> As for the Hills dog food, any vet that sells it, pushes it to their clients as they make a huge profit off of it as well. Stick with what is working for Beamer, it is good for him too.


Kathy- You sure got that right. Isn't it amazing how vets push the Hills/Science diet product lines? My previous Hav was a couple of pounds overweight for a time, and the first thing the vet recommended was Hills W/D dry. When I checked it out, the ingredients were awful. First ingredient is ground corn, second is powdered cellulose, third is peanut hulls (yum!), fourth is chicken by-product meal, etc. It even has BHA/BHT for preservatives that can have adverse effects on kidney and liver functions. I really don't think many vets have much nutrition education. Obviously, I decided against the W/D and she lost the weight through portion reduction, no high calorie snacks and more exercise. Definitely there are dogs who need prescription type diets and there are only a few to choose between (Hills, Royal Canin Veterinary, Purina Veterinary, Eukanuba Veterinary, etc.), but I wouldn't just feed regular Hills just because the vet pushes it.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Lina said:


> Linda, I thought that grape seeds (and skin and the grape itself) are extremely toxic to dogs... wouldn't the extract be bad for them?
> 
> As far as whether or not raw is bad or good for dogs, it's hard to say though there have been some studies that suggest that even the high protein content in puppy food is bad for dogs and that puppy food should never be fed. Since raw has an even higher percentage of protein, it's hard for me to be able to come to grips with it I guess. Plus, the idea of bacteria just scares me.
> 
> ...


Oops, I was surfing the forum on my phone, so I often mistype. I meant grapeFRUIT seed extract. Big difference, hope nobody took me up on the grape seed extract! The Primal I feed has it in it already.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

MaddiesMom said:


> Kathy- You sure got that right. Isn't it amazing how vets push the Hills/Science diet product lines? My previous Hav was a couple of pounds overweight for a time, and the first thing the vet recommended was Hills W/D dry. When I checked it out, the ingredients were awful. First ingredient is ground corn, second is powdered cellulose, third is peanut hulls (yum!), fourth is chicken by-product meal, etc. It even has BHA/BHT for preservatives that can have adverse effects on kidney and liver functions. I really don't think many vets have much nutrition education. Obviously, I decided against the W/D and she lost the weight through portion reduction, no high calorie snacks and more exercise. Definitely there are dogs who need prescription type diets and there are only a few to choose between (Hills, Royal Canin Veterinary, Purina Veterinary, Eukanuba Veterinary, etc.), but I wouldn't just feed regular Hills just because the vet pushes it.


They make even more on vaccines. So yes, do your homework.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

That is exactly what came to mind when your vet told you to put him on the Hill's food.... That happened to my parents when their cat developed crystals in their bladder, the vet recommended Hill's diet... go figure.

I agree with you Kara, there is just so much info out there that it just boggles the mind and gives me headaches. 

Ryan, just go with what Beamer thrives on. If he is growing nicely and his appetite is good and he is healthy then continue to do what you feel is best for him. 

And I have got to say what I have always said, I just love our little (well, not so little anymore) community. Everyone is so full of helpful hints and advice.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

I think I will be sticking with the Raw diet.. Beamer loves it and it makes everything so simple..lol.. Lets hope his little 'shake' episode had nothing to do with anything.. I'll be watching him closely after meals to make sure it was just one of those things..


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Helen,

I picked up a sample of Tollden Farms raw chicken patty today. The guy at the store has been using this brand for a long time and loves it. 
http://www.tolldenfarms.ca/index.htm

It's a Canadian company and everything is from Canada.

The guy at the store (Global Pet Foods) was VERY pro raw diet.

I also picked up a sample bag of the NV prarie kibble.. just to see if beamer has any interest. If s, I can always feed him a couple kibble meals per week..

Ryan


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Yes, keep a very close eye on him. As long as he is healthy, the raw diet will be fine. See if there's grapefruit seed extract in the product. If not and you are worried about parasites and bacteria, you can add this and it will take care of it.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Linda,
How long have you been feeding raw to your guys? Have you noticed any changes in them since you started?

Thanks!
Ryan


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Ryan,
They have been on the raw since that big recall. Bella has gained weight, and has more energy. Their teeth are white, breath is fresh, smaller stools. My guys are all young, so it's hard to see any big change. Freddie was a picky eater, until I switched to the raw. He has not turned down a meal since! Bella would go days without eating. Now, she might skip a meal, but will finish the entire amount for dinner. It makes me feel better, because she is so skinny and delicate. 
I don't want to tell anyone they have to feed raw, but do the research and make your own decision.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Linda, thanks for clearing that up, I was a little confused. 

Jane, I didn't know that about grape seeds but I had heard from someone else that even the seeds contain the toxin. Thanks for looking that up!


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Ryan,

I am so glad that Beamer is OK. 
As far as food, I think you are doing the right thing by continuing to feed raw and just keeping an eye on it. 

As far as kibble, all three of my guys turned their noses up at NV and it gave all three terrible runs. 

My friend has a 9 year old Standard Poodle who she's been feeding home cooked from the very beginning. She feeds 1/2 protein, 1/4 grain and 1/4 veggies. The dog is in great shape, happy, healthy, playful and has sparkling white teeth.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Thanks Ryan for that info, I do believe I was given a sample of the Tollden Farms food. Keep an eye on Beamer and see how this food agrees with him. It is good news that he is gaining weight and eating. 

I have found with Oreo that his muscle tone has really increased - mind you he was naturally fairly muscular, but I can feel he has more tone and he feels heavier. His breath has gotten so much better and I am finding he even inhales his kibble at dinner time - I feed raw in the AM and kibble at dinner. I have increased his kibble serving to 1/2 cup and he finishes now with no problems at all. He is much happier too. Before, whenever I gave him the 'okay' to get his food, boy, he would practically drag his feet. Now, he waits to be 'released' and is practically shaking with anticipation of his food. When he gets the 'okay' he JUMPS and DASHES to his food... I think Oreo likes his food now 

I am sure though that my vet will have a field day with the raw diet when he finds out..


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## brandy (Jun 12, 2007)

I can tell you first hand as a Veterinary Nurse that yes vets do get a kick back from selling Science Diet and sometimes even the Nurses. In fact when I worked for Banfield Pet Hospital, years ago, the Doctors kicked part of it down to the Nurses. I never pushed the food, I know it's crap. And 2 of the 3 doctors I worked with there also wouldnt reccomend it. I dont mean any reflection on Banfield because all vets get this offer from Science Diet. I think one of the ways you can tell if you have an honest vet is if they can give you info on diets and other brands because they have educated themselves enough on the matter, especially since quality diet is a huge part of a healthy dog, and if they still push science diet...well, you have your answer about what they really care about $$$. And... all good vets should be able to talk diet with you in detail.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Brandy,
thanks your honesty! I really feel some vets poo poo the raw diets because they just don't know enough about them. They are not experts in nutrition.
I read what percentage of income they get just from pushing vaccines alone . It was staggering, something like 40-60%. I don't really trust their advice that's why I try to educated myself as much as possible and make my own decisions.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

In Vet-school, very LITTLE time is spent on "nutrition" studies. Some vets know more than others, but I think that is due to their own research and interest in the subject.

They basically leave it up to the pet food companies to figure out what is nutritious! And it is amazing the differences in each commercial food. Some are mostly CARBS, others, protein, and so on.

Gosh...I can't concentrate w/ Gucci trying to lick my EAR! EEKS!!

Kara


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Hmmmm, Gucci licking your ear is a good problem to have. What a sweet girl.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Way to go Gucci!! LOL Kara, she just loves you and how you are so good to her! In my next life I want to come back as a Havanese that lives with you


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

LOL!

Do your doggies try to stick their tongues down your ears? LOL ound: I mean, I cook her all this nice gourmet food and she prefers the taste of my ear WAX? haha...what does that say about my cooking? 

It tickles!! And she licks like it tastes like filet mignon!!!! 

Kara


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Kara, Kubrick does that with our feet. Actually, he's licking my feet as I type this. It does really tickle sometimes so I have to make him stop. LOL.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

OH yes, the toe jam... YUM!! ound: It is amazing what they like. Oreo loves my uncles ears - he has dangly earlobes and nibbles on them.... ound:

And he MUST absolutely at some point in the day lick our toes or anyone elses - he especially loves the pinky toe... ound:


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Logan LOVES Ears!! He loves to nibble while kissing.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

I'd take a nibbling havanese over any other ear nibbler any day!! ound:


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## Havlady (Aug 2, 2006)

Mine shiver after eating Ice Cream or cold stuff. Nobody has any liver problems - just cuddle him till he warms up.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

ound: ound: Me Too Helen, I know what you mean!!


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## LuvMyHavanese (Apr 13, 2007)

Thumperlove said:


> LOL!
> Do your doggies try to stick their tongues down your ears? LOL ound: I mean, I cook her all this nice gourmet food and she prefers the taste of my ear WAX? haha...what does that say about my cooking?
> It tickles!! And she licks like it tastes like filet mignon!!!!
> Kara


Of course, they like to like their own butts too so maybe thats why they are such picky eaters!!:laugh:


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

whitBmom said:


> I'd take a nibbling havanese over any other ear nibbler any day!! ound:


LOL!!! ound: ound:

Gucci doesnt' really nibble, she just LICKS like my ear is full of ice cream and tries to cram her tongue down my ear. It gives me goosebumps! haha.
And I could NOT finish typing a post, she would not take NO for an answer. I put her on the floor and she jumped back up for my ear!

I just bought her a little stuffed pumpkin toy from Starbucks so she is very happy and busy playing with it.  If I need to keep her busy for a few hours, a NEW TOY is the way to go! She could care less about bones and food.

Kara


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Ok, so Beamer had lunch with MIL again today and was totally fine! We are now microwaving the raw food for about 10 seconds out of the fridge, just so its not to cold from its frozen state the night before..

That 10 seconds of microwave will not hurt the integrity of the raw, will it?

Ryan


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## LuvMyHavanese (Apr 13, 2007)

I was having issues with Tripp some time ago about him having NO energy to do anything-would just lay around, also had loose stools that i just couldnt get under control(even with added fiber & diet change). I was so worried & i remembered how well he did on it when i fed them in the spring. 

Well i switched back to raw again & its like i have a different dog. He has SO much more energy & his stool issues are gone. I put both Tripp & Jax on it. Jax ALWAYS had soft stool since i got him, and he produced a LARGE amount of stool. Since he has been on the raw they are firm & small. They are just doing great on it. So i am a firm(haha) believer of feeding raw.

I just wish i could get Dream to eat it. She will take it but just play with it so i want to try another brand. A store near here carries Aunt Jeni's, so i may try that.


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## LuvMyHavanese (Apr 13, 2007)

Ryan, i have read that you should not ever nuke raw dog food. Something happens to it but i cant remember. I will look for the article(s) now to see if i can post it.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Oh really?? please do!!
I'm just nuking it to make it room temp out of the fridge..

I know Missy actually nukes to cook?? Hopefully thats not bad??


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

I don't know how long you MIL stays to feed Beamer but maybe she could put the food out and then play with him for 5-10 minutes to take the chill off the food. If she normally stays to play with him anyway she could just reverse the order she does things.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Hey Anne..
Yeah, maybe just letting it sit out for a bit is better than nuking it.. I'm interested to read this article though.. if Shannon can find it..

And yeah.. when people come to feed beamer, they stay for acouple hours usually.. could you leave that cute guy only after 10 minutes to feed?? hahaha


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## LuvMyHavanese (Apr 13, 2007)

Ryan, here is one thing i found. But i will see if i can find a full article. This was taken from Primals webiste:

When Serving
It is important to only serve Primal Canine Formulas when completely thawed. Frozen foods can be difficult for dogs to digest. Also, always serve Canine Formulas raw for optimum benefit. Never microwave any pet food. Microwaves cause the fat molecules to radically change, making fats less digestible, and ultimately they can become harmful to your pet’s long term health


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I have read that somewhere too, Ryan. I think I remember it saying something about the uneven heating of the microwave destroying nutrients and excessive microwaved foods create cancer causing agents (like they say for us humans, too)

I don't think 10 seconds will do much as far as cooking it and taking out the raw nutrients.

Another option, is to put them in a ziploc baggie and let them sit in warm/hot water for a minute or two.

Kara


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## LuvMyHavanese (Apr 13, 2007)

Ryan, this was from Healty Pet Journal:

Obvious precautions should be taken when feeding raw meat - wash hands thoroughly after handling the raw meat. Thaw meat in the refrigerator, not sitting on the counter at room temperature. Warm water can be used to thaw or warm the food after it has been mostly thawed in the refrigerator. *Do not microwave raw food as the live enzymes are damaged and bones will harden even in just 30 seconds of micro waving.* We do recommend avoiding pork as it has been shown to be a source of Trichinella. If you are concerned about bacteria, you can rinse it with several drops of food grade hydrogen peroxide in a sink of water or 1/2 teaspoon liquid grapefruit seed extract in a sink of water to help kill bacteria on the surface


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

That's a great idea kara!! I will do that too  I was leary about cooking it because we have all been told to never give dogs cooked bones. Now seeing how raw food has ground bones in it, I was afraid it wouldn't be good. But hey, I don't know much about raw, just that Oreo loves it, and he is doing very well on it.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Ohhhhhh.. ok, I think throwing it in a ziplock into warm water would be best. Ok, no more microwave for me!

Thanks for the info!


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## brandy (Jun 12, 2007)

LuvMyHavanese said:


> Of course, they like to like their own butts too so maybe thats why they are such picky eaters!!:laugh:


 So if we could come up with a nutrious diet that tastes like butt, ear wax and toe jam maybe trow in a little taste of belly lint toilet paper and underwear, wel we would be genious! Any taste testers out there? EEEWWWWW!


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## jillnors2 (Apr 12, 2007)

> and the first thing the vet recommended was Hills W/D dry. When I checked it out, the ingredients were awful


I looked up the ingredients and came to the same conclusion, Hills is not very good. Here is a good website that rates dog food.
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/index.php


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

well.... I think It may not be the best- but it is working really well for the boys--- I use the microwave to lightly cook their food NV- it is still pink inside. I think 10 seconds would surely be OK. I don't know about the fat but in the NV the bones are ground so I don't think that is an issue. I know it probably loses some nutrients over raw but I am guessing it is still OK. 

I had read somewhere that the microwave controversy for humans had been de-bunked. Perhaps I chose to believe it because we do use the microwave for ourselves. 

I think this has been said many times here, but I don't think there is any one right answer on the food thing--- all our dogs are different and all our lifestyles are different. 

that being said Oh gosh I hope I am not harming them by cooking the NV.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Missy you are right. We have to go with what our gut tells us sometimes - even though many Hill plugging vets will discount that... Missy always do what you feel is right, especially when you see how your pups are thriving..

In Oreo I am finding that he is even more confident too, I am not sure how raw diets affect disposition... lol


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

brandy said:


> So if we could come up with a nutrious diet that tastes like butt, ear wax and toe jam maybe trow in a little taste of belly lint toilet paper and underwear, wel we would be genious! Any taste testers out there? EEEWWWWW!


Brandy.......YOU are funny, honey! ound: ound:

Gucci would love to taste-test. Heck, I'd bottle up the formula and make millions! bwa haha.

Kara


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Ryan,
I thaw the nuggets in the fridge overnight and then put the cold nuggets in a baggie and let sit in warm water for an hour to warm.


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## LuvMyHavanese (Apr 13, 2007)

I feed NV raw also but i see bone chunks in there & the microwave may harden them even when used quickly. I used to thaw that way but stopped after reading about it some time ago. Mostly because of the molecular changes i read that nuking does to it. I use the warm water method, but my guys like it frozen.


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