# Reasonable price for puppy?



## FourPaws

Hi all: When I last searched for a Hav puppy, we paid about $1700. (maybe a little less). That was four years ago. Highly reputable, experienced breeder, dam/sire were first offspring of champs, their previous two litters had rave reviews and even our crusty, seen-it-all vet pronounces our Little Guy to be "a wonderful dog." Alas, she has retired.

We're now deep in the hunt for a sibling and prices seem higher...$2200-2500? And not even w champs in the line (not that I care, but I'm trying to figure out how breeders reach a price).

Unclear what is realistic these days. Any advice to offer, either through this open forum or direct message?

thanks so much!


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## krandall

FourPaws said:


> Hi all: When I last searched for a Hav puppy, we paid about $1700. (maybe a little less). That was four years ago. Highly reputable, experienced breeder, dam/sire were first offspring of champs, their previous two litters had rave reviews and even our crusty, seen-it-all vet pronounces our Little Guy to be "a wonderful dog." Alas, she has retired.
> 
> We're now deep in the hunt for a sibling and prices seem higher...$2200-2500? And not even w champs in the line (not that I care, but I'm trying to figure out how breeders reach a price).
> 
> Unclear what is realistic these days. Any advice to offer, either through this open forum or direct message?
> 
> thanks so much!


Pretty much the lowest I know of reputable breeders charging for Havanese puppies these days is $2,000. They range from there to $2,500 for pet puppies (good quality puppies, but should with limited registration... meaning you can't breed them). "Champions in the line" really means nothing. That can be said of almost any Havanese bred in the U.S., including puppy mill dogs. While most reputable breeders show at least some of their dogs, there can be good reasons for not showing others. But you'd want to ask why. We have a good article on how to find a reputable breeder here: http://www.havaneseforum.com/8-puppy-area/16008-things-look-reputable-breeder.html


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## littlebuddy

Django was $1,500 13 years ago and came from an excellent breeder.


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## Zoe093014

I paid $1600. to $1800. a little over 2 years ago. I don't remember exactly. But even at that time, there were some breeders asking $2500.


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## FourPaws

YIKES. Thanks, all. Certainly price is a factor in our hunt,but with this range, it's hard to know value for money...I want to pay what's fair for an excellent situation but it's hard to tell the difference btw a breeder who charges $1800 and one who asks for $2500. I just don't like feeling as if I've overpaid and been taken advantage of, simply because I'm so eager.

When I mentioned the upper end of these prices to a work colleague who is a dog expert and is himself now beginning the hunt for a Hav pup, he shuddered and said he couldn't imagine paying over $1000 for a puppy.

I have enormous respect for scrupulous, loving breeders; this is hardly a business, I would think, in which folks get rich or even comfortable. For the best ones, who invest so much time (and vet visits!) in the care and tending of the Hav dam/sire and the newbies, plus searching/screening prospective new owners, I understand mounting expense, including shots et al. But as a consumer,I'm also trying to get my head around cost/value. Why does X breeder charge 1800 and Y asks 2500?

Wow. Love is expensive.


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## KarMar

I have a really great breakdown of a breeder's expenses and how the cost of a litter is larger than what buyers pay. I am at work but will post after, as well as the story of how Nino's sire became the priciest puppy possible


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## 31818

FourPaws said:


> YIKES. Certainly price is a factor in our hunt,


I'm going to disagree with this statement. Finding the right dog for your situation is the only factor that should be important. The right dog is priceless!



> but with this range, it's hard to know value for money...I want to pay what's fair for an excellent situation but it's hard to tell the difference btw a breeder who charges $1800 and one who asks for $2500. I just don't like feeling as if I've overpaid and been taken advantage of, simply because I'm so eager.


Start looking at it from this perspective - value for money is getting the right dog for your situation. $2500 is not too much for the right dog, in fact, $2500 is probably a bargain!



> When I mentioned the upper end of these prices to a work colleague who is a dog expert and is himself now beginning the hunt for a Hav pup, he shuddered and said he couldn't imagine paying over $1000 for a puppy.


If that is your friends price limit, he might want to consider Havanese Rescue. It probably won't be a puppy and the dog may have significant issues to address, but good Havanese are available as rescues.



> Wow. Love is expensive.


I'm not going to say what we paid for Ricky Ricardo because it is irrelevant. We visited the breeder and we and Ricky bonded immediately. We had no idea what his price was. As we were gathering his things to take him home, I asked how much the check should be. I wrote the check on the spot and never gave it a second thought. I would not sell him today for $10K, $100K, or a million dollars. He will NEVER be for sale. Love is priceless! Just be prepared to pay as much as $2500. If your budget is less, there is no shame in that. Let us know what your budget is and the members here may be able to suggest some alternatives for you, perhaps an adult that needs to be re-homed. Ricky Ricardo was 9 months old when we acquired him and it worked out great after some reality checks in the first 3 or 4 months.

Once you find the right Havanese, you will understand.

Ricky's Popi


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## krandall

FourPaws said:


> YIKES. Thanks, all. Certainly price is a factor in our hunt,but with this range, it's hard to know value for money...I want to pay what's fair for an excellent situation but it's hard to tell the difference btw a breeder who charges $1800 and one who asks for $2500. I just don't like feeling as if I've overpaid and been taken advantage of, simply because I'm so eager.
> 
> When I mentioned the upper end of these prices to a work colleague who is a dog expert and is himself now beginning the hunt for a Hav pup, he shuddered and said he couldn't imagine paying over $1000 for a puppy.
> 
> I have enormous respect for scrupulous, loving breeders; this is hardly a business, I would think, in which folks get rich or even comfortable. For the best ones, who invest so much time (and vet visits!) in the care and tending of the Hav dam/sire and the newbies, plus searching/screening prospective new owners, I understand mounting expense, including shots et al. But as a consumer,I'm also trying to get my head around cost/value. Why does X breeder charge 1800 and Y asks 2500?
> 
> Wow. Love is expensive.


It is EXPENSIVE to raise quality dogs, and Havanese are likely to have small litters. Litters of 3-5 is probably about average, although, of course there are certainly larger litters. Anyone whi is selling Havanese puppies for $1000 is cutting xorners... no matter what your friend thinks they know. The price difference, from what I've seen are mostly regional. Here in the north east, the prices are usually closer to $2,500, but all the services needed to bring that quality puppy to life. You can certainly travel to an area where the dogs are less expensive... the south or the midwest, but then, depending on where you live, you can incur significant travel expenses. That's not always a bad choice, though, regardless of cost. I flew from MA to NC for two of mine... not based on price, but because it was the breeder I wanted to work with.

I have to be honest with you. i know a number of really excellent breeders and they ALL weed out potential buyers if the first question is price.


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## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I'm going to disagree with this statement. Finding the right dog for your situation is the only factor that should be important. The right dog is priceless!
> 
> Start looking at it from this perspective - value for money is getting the right dog for your situation. $2500 is not too much for the right dog, in fact, $2500 is probably a bargain!
> 
> If that is your friends price limit, he might want to consider Havanese Rescue. It probably won't be a puppy and the dog may have significant issues to address, but good Havanese are available as rescues.
> 
> I'm not going to say what we paid for Ricky Ricardo because it is irrelevant. We visited the breeder and we and Ricky bonded immediately. We had no idea what his price was. As we were gathering his things to take him home, I asked how much the check should be. I wrote the check on the spot and never gave it a second thought. I would not sell him today for $10K, $100K, or a million dollars. He will NEVER be for sale. Love is priceless! Just be prepared to pay as much as $2500. If your budget is less, there is no shame in that. Let us know what your budget is and the members here may be able to suggest some alternatives for you, perhaps an adult that needs to be re-homed. Ricky Ricardo was 9 months old when we acquired him and it worked out great after some reality checks in the first 3 or 4 months.
> 
> Once you find the right Havanese, you will understand.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


Very well said!


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## KarMar

Why Does a QUALITY Puppy Cost So Much?

This was written by the breeder at Burns Gardens (who I believe Dee Dee got Sophie from). Aside from the part where he asserts that established breeders don't really need to show at all, I agree with everything mentioned. I personally feel much more comfortable buying from a breeder who shows most of their dogs to championships. At about $30 a show day plus buying the necessities, training fees, and travel costs, finishing a dog could easily exceed $1000. Nino's breeder likes to go beyond that and put Grands on her dogs.

Now let's talk Nino's sire. He was born via a natural breeding to a dog 7 hours away. They ended up having to drive down twice, though I don't remember why. He was in a bad position in the birthing canal, so he ended up being delivered via c-section...and he was a singleton. She also ended up keeping him in her home and didn't get any money back selling him, so she calls him the most expensive Havanese around.


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## April R

We paid $1500-1600 for our previous Havi's and paid the same for our Jade. The prices here are $1500-2000 for good quality pups. If a Havanese is the dog for you, it doesn't matter the price. We love this breed! Jade is our 4th Havanese, and we are getting another tomorrow....like chips, it is hard to stop!😀😍


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## Bowie's Mom

I think most of the pricing is reflective of competition. It's just crazy that there are people selling half-breeds for $4K a puppy with slick websites and emails announcing new litters every couple of months, it's a big money making business. Most reputable Havanese breeders are not in it for for the money, but are in it for the love of the breed. It's a costly undertaking to do it correctly, in more ways than just monetary. Spending the extra money on a puppy from a reputable breeder will in all probability save you that money and heartache in the future.


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## Pucks104

Let's say you pay $2000 for a well-bred puppy who provides you with love and companionship for 15 years. That price would mean you were paying about .37 per day for all that cuteness and love! Very affordable!
Reality is that, as with a human child, the cost of prenatal and birth is only the beginning. I have 2 Havs and I know that I have spent their price again on equipment, toys, cloths, bows, etc. to accommodate their needs! Then on top of that there is the cost of food, grooming and medical care! If you are balking at the initial puppy price then be sure you really want one of these adorable REALLY expensive little buggers to come live with you!


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## FourPaws

Thanks, all. Really appreciate these thoughtful replies; I've learned a great deal. (And no, price is not the first question I ask a breeder, nor even the 15th!). The regional disparity is interesting, though the range I've already encountered--$1800 - $2500--is from reputable breeders in the same small Northeastern state.

Our Little Guy, a Hav from the mighty state of Delaware, is the joy of our lives, so I know well that a great dog is priceless. But in searching for a sibling I'm trying to figure out what criteria I should use to trust the breeder I'll ultimately work with. The posted articles as well as the responses have been quite helpful.


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## FourPaws

*Thank you for article on Breeder Cost*

Read this article carefully. Thank you so much for posting. Eye-opening. Also a little startling to me because this breeder--too bad, Arizona is too far for me--is so thoughtful, informative, precise and careful. None of the Northeast breeders I've yet spoken with seem to have this level of care. I can understand this breeder's costs now but I'm wondering about the ones I've interviewed, not so much for price but more for whether they are as involved, attentive as this AZ breeder is. Hmmm. Thank YOU!!


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## boomana

$2000-2500 is standard around here. Factor whatever the price over the hopefully very long life, and it won't really matter. I really wanted a breeder that did health testing on the parents.


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## FourPaws

OK, good to know...thanks!


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## 31818

Bowie's Mom said:


> Spending the extra money on a puppy from a reputable breeder will in all probability save you that money and heartache in the future.


That's right, purchase a dog with significant health issues and you can spend a few thousand dollars just by walking in the Vet's door.



Pucks104 said:


> Reality is that, as with a human child, the cost of prenatal and birth is only the beginning. I have 2 Havs and I know that I have spent their price again on equipment, toys, cloths, bows, etc. to accommodate their needs! Then on top of that there is the cost of food, grooming and medical care!


I'm embarrassed to admit what we spend on Ricky each year. We don't even keep track. Certainly more than what we paid for him, EACH YEAR! For example, we spend over $1100 per year on his grooming alone. I know we could do the grooming ourselves and save a bundle but that is not our choice. While in Hawai'i last year, we paid more for an ALOHA shirt for Ricky than one for myself :surprise: (pictures coming). Ricky is probably the most spoiled dog on the face of the earth and he is worth it.

Ricky's Popi


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## Sheri

Even dogs from the best breeders can have illnesses show up, but your chances of getting a healthy dog are much better if the breeders care about the breed and do all the pre-testing to rule out health issues ahead of time.

Something I didn't know at the time I got my precious dog, is that there are breeders that go way above that health testing and also provide excellent socialization and house training of puppies from the time they are born or a few days old. That is what I would add to my list of breeder preferences. 

Also, how accessible are the breeders once money has changed hands? The breeder I went to had little/no contact with me after money changed hands. No back-up, no answers to questions. That alone can save a lot of worry and money in vet bills.


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## 31818

FourPaws said:


> Read this article carefully. Thank you so much for posting. Eye-opening. Also a little startling to me because this breeder--too bad, Arizona is too far for me--is so thoughtful, informative, precise and careful.


I think you mean Nevada, not Arizona? The article was written by Heather (Cache Havanese, Reno area) who used to be a regular here on HF. Heather and I talked several times via telephone before I eventually acquired Ricky from someone else. Heather had nothing available for me at that time. Heather's dogs are expensive because she imports breeding stock from Europe from time to time to keep her bloodlines pure.

Call Heather, she knows people everywhere, all over the US. She is so dedicated to the Havanese breed (as well as Australian Shepherd breed) that she will spend whatever time to help you find the right dog in your area.

Ricky's Popi


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## KarMar

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I think you mean Nevada, not Arizona? The article was written by Heather (Cache Havanese, Reno area) who used to be a regular here on HF. Heather and I talked several times via telephone before I eventually acquired Ricky from someone else. Heather had nothing available for me at that time. Heather's dogs are expensive because she imports breeding stock from Europe from time to time to keep her bloodlines pure.
> 
> Call Heather, she knows people everywhere, all over the US. She is so dedicated to the Havanese breed (as well as Australian Shepherd breed) that she will spend whatever time to help you find the right dog in your area.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


The article was actually written by Bill Burns of The Kennels at Burns Gardens in Washington state for Havanese Breed Magazine


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## Sheri

KarMar said:


> The article was actually written by Bill Burns of The Kennels at Burns Gardens in Washington state for Havanese Breed Magazine


Actually, I believe that the first link about what to look for in a breeder, listed by Karen, is from Heather of Cache Havanese. The second link, about the cost of raising puppies, is from Bill Burns.


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## Cassandra

Just to add another regional perspective, in Northern California, the price for reputable breeder is between 2000-2500. 

I had to submit a written application, do a phone interview, and then used a prior purchaser from my breeder as a recommendation...and then I think what got me to an in person interview was the fact that the breeder had gone to the same university where my daughter teaches... then the breeder observed our interactions with the puppies and adults before we were "approved." I think it was harder than getting a kid into an elite private school.

But my breeder is wonderful, always available for follow-up and I have gone to local dog show to watch Cassie's cousins compete....


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## KarMar

Sheri said:


> Actually, I believe that the first link about what to look for in a breeder, listed by Karen, is from Heather of Cache Havanese. The second link, about the cost of raising puppies, is from Bill Burns.


Gotcha  Hadn't realized another article was posted. FourPaws was referencing the Arizona breeder, which was who posted the article from Bill Burns that I linked to.


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## FourPaws

Jaw-dropping information, all...Makes me wonder how we lucked out with Little Guy, from our great Delaware breeder (please come out of retirement? Please?). I've spoken with breeders who have no questions for me (which makes me wonder; I'm happy to be scrutinized...shows me the breeder cares about where the puppy is headed) to those who want references, an application, a conversation with our vet, and to make a home visit. That last, by the way, though demanding, was the least expensive of the breeders I've spoken with (one pup died in utero; breeder kept the other...oh well).


I'm aware that one can only control for so much, and then it's just...luck/faith/whatever. Hmmmm.

Lots of anxiety over finding another 12-14 pounds featuring deep brown-eyed gaze, wet nose and a happy tail.


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## krandall

FourPaws said:


> Jaw-dropping information, all...Makes me wonder how we lucked out with Little Guy, from our great Delaware breeder (please come out of retirement? Please?). I've spoken with breeders who have no questions for me (which makes me wonder; I'm happy to be scrutinized...shows me the breeder cares about where the puppy is headed) to those who want references, an application, a conversation with our vet, and to make a home visit. That last, by the way, though demanding, was the least expensive of the breeders I've spoken with (one pup died in utero; breeder kept the other...oh well).
> 
> I'm aware that one can only control for so much, and then it's just...luck/faith/whatever. Hmmmm.
> 
> Lots of anxiety over finding another 12-14 pounds featuring deep brown-eyed gaze, wet nose and a happy tail.


Just another bit of perspective on the cost of RAISING puppies... A good friend of mine recently had a litter, and I've been lucky to be involved from helping with the whelping on. She bought FOUR bitches before she had one she could breed. One had hip dysplasia... It has never bothered the dog, herself, but obviously the decision was made to spay her. Another came from a line that later turned out to have liver problems and although she never has, the decision was made to spay her without breeding also. The third, imported from Europe at high costs, had mild dysplasia AND cataracts... Again, spayed and placed in a pet home where she's doing great. Her 4th bitch, also imported, passed all her health clearances (but now there are FOUR sets of health clearances paid for, not even counting the sire, who passed everything first time) The sire was shown to his championship... Even more expensive because she needed to use a professional handler, the bitch is pointed, but hasn't finished yet.

Then you have all the repro vet costs... not cheap. 6 Healthy puppies, fortunately, without the need of vet intervention which, of course would have boosted the total more. Next the well-puppy vet needs as they grew, including worming, and very soon, their first shots. TODAY, we took them to the Veterinary hospital at the university for the BAER (hearing) tests. That was $600 right there. These puppies were all sold for $2500 (and she had a waiting list of other people who wanted them also) When all is said and done, I am SURE that my friend didn't even break even financially on this litter, and that doesn't count her endless hours of work, or the cost of all the equipment required to whelp and raise a litter at all.

You might think that it's poor luck (or poor decisions) that she had 3 bitches first that she couldn't use (and in each case bought and raised those dogs until they were at least 2 and ready for their adult X-rays). But this isn't at all uncommon. I know MANY breeders who start with a puppy that they have high hopes for, and the bite goes off, or it doesn't have the conformation it should at maturity, or doesn't pass one of its heart clearances... Those costs are "hidden" costs in every litter that is produced.

Another friend (the breeder of my girl, Panda) had just one litter. Again, had to do all the health clearances on the parents, but had a totally uneventful pregnancy... Except that the bitch was carrying ELEVEN puppies, and labor stalled. The night spent in the ER getting those puppies delivered, and trying to save the lives of the two that didn't make it was very, VERY costly. I don't begrudge good breeders once cent of what they charge.


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## krandall

Oh, one other thought, though... Many excellent breeders will reduce the cost of a puppy slightly if the puppy has a conformation "defect" that will not affect the health of the puppy at all. For instance, I know a breeder who recently placed a puppy whose bite was SLIGHTLY off. A Havanese can have either a "scissor bite" (preferred) or a level bite. This puppy has an EVER SO SLIGHT undershot jaw. Most people wouldn't even notice it, and it won't cause ANY health problems for the dog. 

A less reputable breeder might just not say anything, and the owner wouldn't notice until it was pointed out later by a vet. (at which point, the person already loves the dog, and wouldn't think of sending it back over something so minor) This puppy was already promised to a family when the problem showed up. (bites change as puppies grow) The breeder told the family about the issue with the bite, and insisted that they discuss it with their vet. The people still really wanted the puppy, so she was sold for a few hundred less than her original price. 

So it's possible that you could "save some money" without compromising on the important qualities in a pet dog, by waiting for something like that to happen. But I don't know how you'd ever orchestrate that. It is possible that a breeder would sell a puppy with very poor pigment or eye color for a little less too. But again, good breeders are MOST concerned about finding excellent homes for their puppies, even ones with a little "problem". And they are likely to be highly suspicious of someone looking for bargains.


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## Sheri

krandall said:


> Just another bit of perspective on the cost of RAISING puppies...


Karen, I found this very interesting. Thanks for sharing.


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## FourPaws

Thanks, KRandall, for all this. Eye-opening. Just can't tell from interviews w breeders so far about the correlation between quality of care and subsequent price...but will bear all this in mind as I proceed...


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## krandall

FourPaws said:


> Thanks, KRandall, for all this. Eye-opening. Just can't tell from interviews w breeders so far about the correlation between quality of care and subsequent price...but will bear all this in mind as I proceed...


One thing that helps is actually VISITING the breeder. I wouldn't purchase a puppy from people who weren't comfortable letting me see how the puppies are being raised. Most top breeders really WANT you to visit because THEY want to see how YOU interact with the dogs, yourself, and they are proud of showing off what a good job they are doing with their pups.

All three of mine plus this litter I've just helped with, have been litter box trained since they were 3 weeks old. (first climbing out of the whelping box) That is a LOT of work, but it is such a HUGE benefit to the new owners. And while most even half way decent breeders raise their Havanese puppies is the house, being raise in an ex-pen in the living room is not enough. An absolutely clean, enriched environment with tons of different surfaces to explore, things to climb on toys to play with, lots of people visiting, etc. is the way good puppies should be raised.

Avoid breeders who tell you you can't visit because it's not safe for the puppies. IMO, they are breeders with something to hide.

Below are two photos of the play areas afforded puppies by my breeder in NC.


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## FourPaws

That's an excellent point re visiting...thank you so much for these crucial tips!!


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## 31818

krandall said:


> Below are two photos of the play areas afforded puppies by my breeder in NC.


That sure as heck looks like Kodi as a pup in the lower right of the second picture! Very distinctive and distinguished coloring. :rockon:

Ricky's Popi


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## krandall

Ricky Ricardo said:


> That sure as heck looks like Kodi as a pup in the lower right of the second picture! Very distinctive and distinguished coloring. :rockon:
> 
> Ricky's Popi


Actually, it's not. It MIGHT be his younger sister, Willow... I can't remember for sure. The Kings have had a number with this color pattern, and it's actually not THAT uncommon in the breed. (though I personally think Kodi is the PRETTIEST  ) But he was there with us when we went for that visit and he was already a grown-up boy.  The photo of the black puppies and the dark sable is when we picked up Pixel, though. ONE of those black puppies is her. 

Here's a photo of Kodi and Willow (as an adult) together on another trip. They do look a lot alike except that she's MUCH smaller.


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## 31818

krandall said:


> Here's a photo of Kodi and Willow (as an adult) together on another trip. They do look a lot alike except that she's MUCH smaller.


:grin2:BookendS:grin2:


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## FourPaws

Severely gorgeous!!!!!!!


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## ShamaMama

Really great thread. Very informative for the potential Havanese owner. I agree that potential Havanese owners should really research the breeders they're considering AND that breeders should really research the people they might sell their puppies to. We had two breeders tell us they would not feel comfortable selling us one of their puppies because of our work schedule during the school year (leaving home at 6 AM and returning at 4 PM) even though we were planning to have a dog walker come over at 11 AM each day. (The Havanese really needs its people.) We were so happy to find the breeder we ultimately chose (a former kindergarten teacher who maybe sympathized with the schedule of teachers). We first got to go to her house to meet her dog and talk about the breed, then we got to go see Shama when she was two and a half, four and a half, and seven weeks old, before bringing her home when she was nine and a half weeks old. (Photos below show seven weeks, nine and a half weeks, and just shy of 19 months.) Our breeder sells her puppies to people all over the country (Shama's mother is a retired grand champion who now lives in California), and she said she likes it when she can sell one locally because then she gets to see it as it grows up. She told us she'd be happy to board Shama whenever we go somewhere. She gives us something for Shama whenever we see her. Sorry, I digress. Shama is the runt of a runt (although I never thought about the fact that her mother was a grand champion even though she was a runt - can a dog get enough points to be a GC even if she's underweight?) so we got a deal on her. She was supposed to cost $1800, but we only paid $1600. She seems to be healthy as a horse; the vet has commented on her strong legs. We are wild about her. We fenced in our yard for her (two years before getting her), and we bought a Pupperton ex pen for her. The money we spent on her, her fence, her ex pen, and everything else was worth it. I will also add that my DH is very allergic to dogs and reacted to many so-called "hypoallergenic" dogs, even a Coton de Tuléar, before meeting a Havanese. He does not have an allergic reaction to Shama. (Let's see Ricky in the Hawaiian shirt!)


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## 31818

ShamaMama said:


> We are wild about her.


ound: You had me fooled! :wink2:

I'm allergic to dogs and cats. No reaction whatsoever to Ricky.

Ricky's Popi


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## krandall

ShamaMama said:


> Shama is the runt of a runt (although I never thought about the fact that her mother was a grand champion even though she was a runt - can a dog get enough points to be a GC even if she's underweight?) so we got a deal on her. She was supposed to cost $1800, but we only paid $1600. She seems to be healthy as a horse;


There is no weight requirement for Havanese... only a height requirement. So it's possible that Shama's mama is close to the bottom of the height range, and the breeder thought Shama was likely to be even smaller, so didn't want to continue breeding smaller and smaller dogs. My brother's Sheltie is also (way) under size. He comes from a very good breeder who sold Sammy as a pet specifically because he is "out of standard" in size.

While SOMETIMES a very small individual is a "runt" because of health problems, like liver shunts or heart defects, other times, they are just a small individual... just like with people. It sounds like Shama is just a sweet, normal, itty, bitty dog!


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## Chasing Mayzie

FourPaws said:


> Hi all: When I last searched for a Hav puppy, we paid about $1700. (maybe a little less). That was four years ago. Highly reputable, experienced breeder, dam/sire were first offspring of champs, their previous two litters had rave reviews and even our crusty, seen-it-all vet pronounces our Little Guy to be "a wonderful dog." Alas, she has retired.
> 
> We're now deep in the hunt for a sibling and prices seem higher...$2200-2500? And not even w champs in the line (not that I care, but I'm trying to figure out how breeders reach a price).
> 
> Unclear what is realistic these days. Any advice to offer, either through this open forum or direct message?
> 
> thanks so much!


As everybody knows, the breeder I got Mayzie from was not top notch. Not a puppy mill, not a mean-spirited person, but a negligent, backyard breeder who didn't take care of her dogs for sure. I paid very little for her. If you want to PM me, I'll be glad to tell you how little. I think that is probably because we live in a state where people more often have big dogs, working dogs, hunting dogs, outside dogs, etc. who have big litters and just sell for less money. Now I immediately had to pay more than that to get her healthy...but she is AKC registered, very pretty, really smart, and doesn't have any problems that aren't environmental in nature. At the time, in my mind, I knew I wasn't going to breed her, that I could provide a good home, etc., so I could justify it. The low price was just icing on the cake.

I know the top notch breeders have to charge in the area of $2,500 plus or minus in order to just recoup some of their expenses. But as long as backyard breeders can charge less, people will buy from them.

As for me, I have already picked the breeder of my next dog, and I know the price will be $2,500 (unless they go up by them). They are on this board, and I'll tell you them via PM if you are curious too. But that's a few years away...I never want to have more than 3 dogs and hopefully my pug and the pom will live to a ripe old age.


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## Bowie's Mom

What a lovely trio you have!


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## Pamela Oryshchyn

I tried to use the "multi quote" feature but have been outsmarted by this computer again! Dag-nabbit!

I just paid over $200 for a program that I can use to help me socialize and pre-condition our puppies before they go to new homes. That's just a tiny example of some of the costs people don't realize go into raising a litter of quality puppies. 

I would rather charge a little bit more per puppy and be able to provide every single opportunity for the pups I place to have successful happy lives. 
Thats why health testing is so important, imho, because it increases the odds that our puppies and their families won't have to deal with heartbreaking health issues. The bitch I just tried to breed has had every possible health test done ( one shortcut way to find out about this is to ask for a CHIC number), has been shown in the confirmation ring(but not championed), and has had her temperament evaluated. She could have easily been weeded out of my breeding program if any one of the things I did produced indicators that she wouldn't be able to produce healthy, happy, beautiful Havvies. 

A lot goes into a good breeding program YEARS before any puppies come along. I'm not exaggerating either.... years.


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## ShamaMama

Love that photo, Chasing Maysie! Thanks for all you do for your puppies, Pamela! I have great admiration for quality breeders. I cannot imagine the work involved. Shama is lying behind me on the floor as I type. We get such a kick out of how much she seems to enjoy being flat on the floor when she has so many plush beds around!


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## FourPaws

Thanks for your full response...will PM you...!


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## trueblue

Finding a good breeder, regardless of price, is so important. My breeder took a dog back after her owner decided she just couldn't handle her anymore. The breeder refunded the purchase price in full, paid to have her flown back home, took back a spayed girl, and found a new, loving family for her. I know you understand that so much more goes into finding a good breeder than price, but just wanted to offer this to show that really good breeders care about the well-being of their puppies, and not just until they get the purchase price.


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## Tom King

Some years ago, I figured up what Pam should get for puppies compared to what she could be making if she worked at a regular job. It came out to $5500.00.

With these last two litters, after I had lost a couple of days work by needing to participate, I told her that we would just have to go up in price. If I don't work, I'm not making anything, and have two men that depend on me, so if they miss work because of me, I pay them, or find something for them to do here. The dogs are full time, long hours, seven days a week for Pam.

We had been charging 2,000 for I don't know how many years. During that time, everything we spend money on for the dogs has gone up. I almost demanded that we go up to 2,500. Pam contacted everyone on our waiting list, and only one person complained (but very soon afterwards apologized). Not one person dropped off our list, and the people at the top of the list are all getting puppies.

I make no excuses. 2,500 is still too cheap.


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## Pamela Oryshchyn

Tom King said:


> Some years ago, I figured up what Pam should get for puppies compared to what she could be making if she worked at a regular job. It came out to $5500.00.
> 
> With these last two litters, after I had lost a couple of days work by needing to participate, I told her that we would just have to go up in price. If I don't work, I'm not making anything, and have two men that depend on me, so if they miss work because of me, I pay them, or find something for them to do here. The dogs are full time, long hours, seven days a week for Pam.
> 
> We had been charging 2,000 for I don't know how many years. During that time, everything we spend money on for the dogs has gone up. I almost demanded that we go up to 2,500. Pam contacted everyone on our waiting list, and only one person complained (but very soon afterwards apologized). Not one person dropped off our list, and the people at the top of the list are all getting puppies.
> 
> I make no excuses. 2,500 is still too cheap.


Just yesterday I looked up and added up the things in my "Puppy Kit". The crate, food, microchip, prepaid registration etc. and that alone was over $200. That doesn't even start to touch medical costs, health testing, stud fees... not to mention the time involved. My husband has missed time at work as well.

Kudos for getting closer to charging what your puppies are worth.


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## krandall

Tom King said:


> Some years ago, I figured up what Pam should get for puppies compared to what she could be making if she worked at a regular job. It came out to $5500.00.
> 
> With these last two litters, after I had lost a couple of days work by needing to participate, I told her that we would just have to go up in price. If I don't work, I'm not making anything, and have two men that depend on me, so if they miss work because of me, I pay them, or find something for them to do here. The dogs are full time, long hours, seven days a week for Pam.
> 
> We had been charging 2,000 for I don't know how many years. During that time, everything we spend money on for the dogs has gone up. I almost demanded that we go up to 2,500. Pam contacted everyone on our waiting list, and only one person complained (but very soon afterwards apologized). Not one person dropped off our list, and the people at the top of the list are all getting puppies.
> 
> I make no excuses. 2,500 is still too cheap.


I think that's a totally fair price Tom. It's certainly what all the breeders up here are charging, and NONE of them have the depth of experience that you and Pam have. The only one who I THINK has been breeding close to as long as you have, (Fuzzy Farm) charges a whole lot more than that...


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## 31818

Tom King said:


> I make no excuses. 2,500 is still too cheap.


Tom, $2500 is the going price here on the West Coast and most of these breeders don't do nearly as much as the two of you do to house break, socialize, and health testing beyond the minimum. I spend at least that much per year to maintain Ricky in top form - grooming, best food, medical, toys, more equipment as he grows, competitions, etc. Is he worth it? He is priceless!

Keep up the good breeding practices and increase prices as necessary. No need to apologize.

Ricky's Popi


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## Heather's

Great picture of your cuties!


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