# Can't decide on Leptospirosis vaccine



## Guccismom (Mar 6, 2019)

We have been going back and forth on if we should vaccinate Gucci with the Leptospirosis vaccine. The vet says its important or she can't go into a pool or drink from a puddle and our breeder says its not safe for the Havenese breed. We live at a ravine and are worried at all the animals pee and saliva she could come in contact with.

Can anyone please give me some feedback
Thanks


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Guccismom said:


> We have been going back and forth on if we should vaccinate Gucci with the Leptospirosis vaccine. The vet says its important or she can't go into a pool or drink from a puddle and our breeder says its not safe for the Havenese breed. We live at a ravine and are worried at all the animals pee and saliva she could come in contact with.
> 
> Can anyone please give me some feedback
> Thanks


I would not risk it. The vet scared me into it and my dog had some reactions. In addition, it only lasts for 6 months and there are many strains of it so you don't even know you are covered. We live in a heavily wooded area with all sorts of varmints. Just monitor your dog and build up its immune system to protect him. This is one of my major regrets with Mia...that I gave it to her. Wish I could take it back.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I think it’s generally discouraged for Havanese. However, we made the unpopular decision to do it because DS is immune suppressed and has a history of rare complications. We chose not to renew it at 1yr since we felt like we could better manage prevention once our puppy was a little more mature.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

The problem is that the vaccine only addresses a few of the many strains, so if you think it's OK to let your dog drink from puddles because they have had the vaccine, you are fooling yourself. A chlorinated pool shouldn't be an issue. 

Lepto can be treated (and cured) with antibiotics if caught early. If your dog is sick, don't wait around, go to the vet. It's the people who THINK their dog "couldn't possibly have Lepto, because they had the vaccine" that end up with a dead dog. JMHO.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

krandall said:


> The problem is that the vaccine only addresses a few of the many strains, so if you think it's OK to let your dog drink from puddles because they have had the vaccine, you are fooling yourself.


Maybe I just don't hear about lepto infections, but it seems like the precautions to avoid lepto are the same as the precautions to avoid giardia, and giardia is really common (at least in my region) and a huge pain to treat. Our puppy had his first bout really soon after we brought him home, and our vet warned us that young puppies in our area that contract it often have repeated infections until their immune systems are more developed. We were vigilant about cleaning and taking care to avoid reinfection and we still had to treat multiple times.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Maybe I just don't hear about lepto infections, but it seems like the precautions to avoid lepto are the same as the precautions to avoid giardia, and giardia is really common (at least in my region) and a huge pain to treat. Our puppy had his first bout really soon after we brought him home, and our vet warned us that young puppies in our area that contract it often have repeated infections until their immune systems are more developed. We were vigilant about cleaning and taking care to avoid reinfection and we still had to treat multiple times.


The difference is that giardia is MUCH less likely to kill your dog. Lepto will, if not treated promptly. With or without vaccination.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Maybe I just don't hear about lepto infections, but it seems like the precautions to avoid lepto are the same as the precautions to avoid giardia, and giardia is really common (at least in my region) and a huge pain to treat. Our puppy had his first bout really soon after we brought him home, and our vet warned us that young puppies in our area that contract it often have repeated infections until their immune systems are more developed. We were vigilant about cleaning and taking care to avoid reinfection and we still had to treat multiple times.


At the time I had Mia vaccinated for Lepto (9 years ago), there was all sorts of stuff in our local news about dogs dying from Lepto, even city dogs. That along with the vet advising it pushed me over the edge to give it. I think we all try to make the best decisions for our dogs given the information we have at the time and don't need to be beating ourselves up with regrets. Often the information available changes over time and even the experts disagree. Since then I learned a lot more and have chosen to not vaccinate either of my dogs ever again, for anything. They both had rabies vaccines reactions also. However, everyone needs to make their own decision.


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## Dianedp (Dec 16, 2018)

Guccismom said:


> We have been going back and forth on if we should vaccinate Gucci with the Leptospirosis vaccine. The vet says it's important or she can't go into a pool or drink from a puddle and our breeder says it's not safe for the Havanese breed. We live at a ravine and are worried at all the animals' pee and saliva she could come in contact with.
> 
> Can anyone please give me some feedback
> Thanks


We got Smokey his lepto booster last week. We live in a suburb that's attached to a big city on one side and a rural area on another and I want him to have as much protection as possible. He had no side effects from the vaccine(s). I think of it this way: My kids are vaccinated. (However, I did _not_ know that Havanese can have side effects, or it would have weighed into my decision.)


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Dianedp said:


> We got Smokey his lepto booster last week. We live in a suburb that's attached to a big city on one side and a rural area on another and I want him to have as much protection as possible. He had no side effects from the vaccine(s). I think of it this way: My kids are vaccinated. (However, I did _not_ know that Havanese can have side effects, or it would have weighed into my decision.)


All vaccines have risks and potential side effects and over vaccination can cause all sorts of issues. This is a very controversial subject and I would encourage you to do research on vaccinosis in dogs so you can make your own decision. The Lepto vaccine is one of the most controversial because there are many strains of it, so even if you take a risk and give it to your dog, the particular strain your dog gets infected with may not be covered by the vaccine. Therefore, the dog has potential for lots of bad to happen with no quarantee of anything good. In addition, it is not very long lasting.


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## Dianedp (Dec 16, 2018)

mudpuppymama said:


> All vaccines have risks and potential side effects and over vaccination can cause all sorts of issues. This is a very controversial subject and I would encourage you to do research on vaccinosis in dogs so you can make your own decision. The Lepto vaccine is one of the most controversial because there are many strains of it, so even if you take a risk and give it to your dog, the particular strain your dog gets infected with may not be covered by the vaccine. Therefore, the dog has potential for lots of bad to happen with no quarantee of anything good. In addition, it is not very long lasting.


I will definitely do my research before our next vet visit.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I’m completely pro-vaccination (DS is immune suppressed and relies on the immunity of others) but I do think this particular vaccination is different. 

I was cautious because it was our first puppy and there were a lot of unknowns, and at the time being cautious seemed to mean giving the vaccination. I was naive about the risks. Our vet did explain them when we were discussing our options, but I didn’t know about the frequency of complications until I was researching immunizations and titers before our puppy’s 1 year boosters. 

I don’t think I’d do it again, with our dog now or a new puppy in the future, but I can’t regret the decision I made to vaccinate at the time. I’m thankful we didn’t have any problems.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Interesting article by a mom with immune suppressed child.

https://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/dont-vaccinate-protect-cancer-kid/


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

mudpuppymama said:


> Interesting article by a mom with immune suppressed child.
> 
> https://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/dont-vaccinate-protect-cancer-kid/


My point was in response to the mention of someone comparing the vaccine to childhood vaccination. As someone who also believes in childhood vaccination, I was saying that I now see this particular vaccine as different.

I won't get into a big thing about immunizations because we have not been brainwashed by the big pharmaceutical companies; my son HAS contracted rare infections and has spent months out of school because of his inability to fight them. Multiple times. Certainly people are welcome to make their own choices for their families, I don't cast judgement, but I'm thankful for vaccinations that do protect my family.

While it's important to consider all sides, all of those sides should also be represented by experts. I have to look at this article as a frustrated mother deserving of empathy and compassion not as an argument against vaccines.


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## aroq (Dec 14, 2018)

This article is a perfect example why you need actual science education in order to understand complex things like vaccination, one of the worst side effects of the information age is the "death of expertise." People read a little information they find online, and think they understand complex and important systems like the sensitization and function of the immune system.

This woman in the linked article clearly does not understand how the immune system works, what "hygiene theory" is, or how vaccines prime an immune system to fight a nascent infection. There is a reason that vets or doctors go to medical/veterinary school for years, to understand the complex set of risks/benefits that come with every medicine/vaccine. There is no free lunch in nature, and they understand that often the perfect is the enemy of the good. Anybody who tells you that no risk is acceptable is just wrong, and is living a fantasy world, everything has risks, even doing nothing. The data and statistics have shown over and over that vaccinations have been the greatest saver of lives in history and has prevented untold suffering in both dogs and people.

Unlike my much more compassionate wife, I do judge people that don't vaccinate, with the obvious exception of optional vaccines.

It's perfectly natural and good to ask questions and challenge from your vet or doctor, as EvaElizabeth can attest, I've yelled at doctors for not answering my questions about my son on more than one occasion. It's not your job to be an expert of medicine, but it is your job to be an expert on your child/dog. 

Listen to your doctor and your vet, who has read the scientific studies, listened to experts in the field, and understands the complex interplay of risks and rewards that comes through years of experience. Of course it goes without saying, you should have a vet that you trust and respect. Don't listen to fear-mongers and articles from sites like the former, who come up with half baked theories and conspiracies.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

aroq;1427910Listen to your doctor and your vet said:


> Everyone is entitled to their views on vaccinations, however how do you find a vet you can trust and respect? Why do all the vets in my area continue to vaccinate dogs yearly when the AAHA changed their guidelines in 2011 to be every 3 years? Why do vets not mention titers or the vaccine protocols by Jean Dodds and Ron Schultz? All these vets went to vet school. Which one do you believe? This frustrated mom may not be the person to get advice from, but vets and doctors are not always the best source either. I have a nephew with a lifelong issue because my sister trusted a doctor to operate on her newborn with a rare condition when he should have referred her to an expert. I will continue to question vets and doctors and not blindly put my trust in them.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dianedp said:


> We got Smokey his lepto booster last week. We live in a suburb that's attached to a big city on one side and a rural area on another and I want him to have as much protection as possible. He had no side effects from the vaccine(s). I think of it this way: My kids are vaccinated. (However, I did _not_ know that Havanese can have side effects, or it would have weighed into my decision.)


Our kids have vaccines, and they should. But there has been much more research in terms of how often boosters are needed. They don't give booster shots annually "just because". the ONLY annual vaccine I know of for humans is flu, and that is because the virus keeps changing.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

I’ll admit, while I am adamantly pro-vaccine, pro-science and my children are 100% vaccinated on schedule, the animal world seems a little murkier, especially with regard to boosters. I can’t say I want to rely on Dodd. I want multiple opinions, studies, etc. Not one dr with a following. It reminds me of Andrew Wakefield and here we have a measles outbreak with humans. THAT SAID, it seems animals truly have been over vaccinated. Probably because tons of research and safety and efficacy studies go into human vaccines, and the attitude is GIVE ALL THE VACCINES to dogs because obviously no one wants rabies. So it’s very confusing to know what to do. I’ve heard recommendations may change to booster every three yrs instead of yearly. Now I’m concerned about this Leptospirosis vaccine. If it’s prevalent in my area I might do it. I’ll have an epidemiologist friend look over any studies I find. That’s the thing. The average person cannot educate themselves as to bias, correlation vs causation etc when reviewing a scientific study. Maybe in a year more info will be available before I’m supposed to booster my dog?


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

The AAHA has already changed the core vaccine protocol to every 3 years, however many vets still booster every year anyway. Titers can also be done if you are in doubt.

https://www.aaha.org/pet_owner/aaha_guidelines/aahas_canine_vaccination_guidelines.

Melissa, hope this helps with your booster decision next year.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

I don't have a choice about giving Perry the DHLPP - it's a requirement annually in Uganda (I tried to get out of it with titers, but run the risk of not being able to take him out or bring him back in if someone wants to be strict, so he gets it annually) along with the annual rabies (I'd prefer to give the 3 year). So far he's been fine with the vaccine even though I worry every year when I have to give it to him. The best I can do is stagger the rabies and the DHLPP a couple of weeks apart.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> I don't have a choice about giving Perry the DHLPP - it's a requirement annually in Uganda (I tried to get out of it with titers, but run the risk of not being able to take him out or bring him back in if someone wants to be strict, so he gets it annually) along with the annual rabies (I'd prefer to give the 3 year). So far he's been fine with the vaccine even though I worry every year when I have to give it to him. The best I can do is stagger the rabies and the DHLPP a couple of weeks apart.


Yes, the final decision is going to be different for every dog in every family. Like spay/neuter, there is no one-size-fits-all answer. It's just important to learn as much as you can, and make an INFORMED decision based on what you think is best in your situation. And in the case of vaccines like Lepto, Lyme, KC and flu, which are only partially effective, don't ASSUME that your dog is "safe" even if you decide to give them. Still take ALL the other precautions you would, even if your dog had NOT received the vaccine.


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## agepia (Jun 22, 2019)

My 10 month old havanese and 6 year old yorkie did not get the lepto vaccine based on the breeders advice and they picked up lepto on a walk in our gated community. We have the usual outdoor critters around here. The symptoms of the infection are very vague and by the time you catch it, it might be too late. My yorkie died in 3 days after being treated in speciality hospitals, we even tried a session of dialysis to save him. The havanese is sick and may not live because the lepto further damaged malformed kidneys he was apparently born with. He was in hospital for 5 days. The vet bills are enormous and the dogs suffered very much. We also had to get tested because lepto is contagious to humans. 
Havanese can have a reaction to the vaccine like becoming lethargic and down, vets say to space out vaccines and pre medicate with benadryl. Lepto can be picked up anywhere from an infected animal that urinates outside. There are no safe zones. We are devastated by this disease.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I am sorry this has happened to you. Unfortunately, getting the vaccine is no guaranty that it wouldn't have happened anyway. That's the problem.


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## TotesMcGotes (11 mo ago)

mudpuppymama said:


> The AAHA has already changed the core vaccine protocol to every 3 years, however many vets still booster every year anyway. Titers can also be done if you are in doubt.
> 
> AAHA Answers.
> 
> Melissa, hope this helps with your booster decision next year.


This link seems to be dead. What are the core vaccine protocols for revery 3 years?


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

TotesMcGotes said:


> This link seems to be dead. What are the core vaccine protocols for revery 3 years?


Vaccination recommendations for general practice (aaha.org)


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