# Why is Gryff so mean to Alec???



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Okay, that's sort of a rhetorical question. I know the answer has to do with the pack order. Gryff has become rather attached to me and I know he resents Alec actually being my son! Gryff used to growl at Alec when he would pet him. Today was a really bad day. Gryff growled at Alec just for walking past him. He probably growled at him 20 times since Alec got home from school. However, they just had a rompin' play session that Gryff initiated and were best buddies for about 10 minutes.

I really don't know what to do. I told Alec and my DH today that NOBODY feeds the dog except for Alec and he's not allowed to feed Gryff unless Gryff knows he's being fed (i.e. don't just put the food down and walk away). What else could I do? I still don't even know how to handle the situation when Gryff growls at him. Give him a swat, put him on his back, ignore it,..I just don't know.

Gryff has school on Wednesday so I am going to talk with them about it. It's only Alec he has this behavior with and my son is really crushed.


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Ivy, I don't know much, but I think that in your case the 'rompin' play session' was probably Gryff trying to 'fight out' his pack order with your son. I would highly recommend you talk to a trainer or a professional, Gryff's behavior is unacceptable and apparently you've never been able to get rid of Gryff's aggression toward your son.


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

I agree with a trainer if it is aggression (I haven't followed this issue too closely).

I question whether it's truly aggression or if he sees Alec as a play buddy and prefers to initiate it with a bark. I know that my oldest is much more the player with MeMe and MeMe's always barking at her. My youngest she never barks at except if she get startled in the middle of the night.

One thing that might work is to have Alec totally ignore Gryff unless Gryff is affectionate. I'll hug my oldest and it drives MeMe nuts. Not until she greets Lauren nicely will I acknowledge MeMe. It also helps if you've got another pet for Alec to pay attention to.


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Actually, Gryff isn't very affectionate at all, even to me. He is like my shadow and he warmly welcomes me when I come home, but he doesn't climb on my lap or smother me with kisses. He is quite aloof, almost like a cat sometimes.

He doesn't bark at Alec, it is definitely a "get out of my way or I am going to bite you" growl.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Ivy, is Alec old enough to walk Gryff? My boys idolize and respect anyone who takes them to the park (which is mostly my DH) but I notice that on the days I take them for a walk-- they will do what ever I say. Walking Gryff will also show him that Alec is a leader.


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Oh Ivy - I'm so sorry. That needs a professional trainer. I know how I'd handle it, but wouldn't want to assume I know all the dynamics. Also, when I did have an aggressive puppy I learned that the more often they are successful (i.e. Alec backs down) the more the pattern is ingrained and then it begins to escalate. So it's very important to get a professional in as soon as possible to nip this in the bud. I can imagine how hurt Alec must feel but please reassure him that it's not about "him". One thing I did think about is whether Gryff is resource guarding with you being the object guarded. You'll need to be specific in what you think is causing it so you find a trainer experienced in Gryff's issue. Hugs to you and Alec.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Yes I agree with Lisa, professional help would be best. :hug:


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I would also back up the professional help advice. I would also likely say, Gryff feels like he is above you in the pecking order too. Cause even Belle knows better than growling around me, like this weekend she was on leslie lap and she did it as low as she could to prevent a correction from me.

Amanda


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I had a professional here months ago. Her recommendation was to have Alec do all the feeding and walking and playing. The professional told me basically to lock myself away from Gryff for a few weeks so he could come to rely on Alec exclusively. Needless to say, that doesn't work with a 7 year old who goes to school all day while I'm home all day. Also, Gryff won't walk with Alec. He digs his heels in so hard and I don't want Alec to pull him on the leash. It's all very frustrating. I was very hopeful that this behavior would cease and the two of them would be a boy and his dog.


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## HayCarambaMama (Dec 8, 2007)

((((Ivy)))) Oh my gosh, my heart is breaking for Alec. I am so anxious for your trainer's help. 
I know Bonnie has growled at my younger ones. It is pretty rare. I have initiated immediate "corrections" by flipping her on her back with a firm NO with the kids standing next to me. I have then asked Bonnie to give "kisses" as an apology and she does it no problem. This was the method a trainer suggested to me for the best results. I also make very sure that my children are very respectful of the pups. However, unlike Gryff, both my pups are incredibly in-your-face affectionate.
Good luck, Ivy, Alec and Gryff! I think my newphew went to school in New Paltz -- is there a U there?


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Oh my. I also have two sons, ages 12 and 9. Scout would growl at my 9 year old some, depending on what is going on. Even though it probably would be difficult for your 7-year old to walk Gryff, how about having him do some "training" with him (like having him do "sit", "down", etc. with treats as rewards)?

I taught my dogs to do the basic commands first, and then got my kids to do the repetitions (since they have lots of energy and time!) 

I am sorry things aren't going better. But I hope they will improve soon. Please let us know how it is going.


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Donna - yes, there is a State University of New York in New Paltz. It's a beautiful little quirky place to live.

Jane - Gryff obeys commands from Alec with no problem. Sit, stay, lie down, spin, jump, etc. Anything that I command him to do, Alec can as well. That's one of the things that makes this so strange.

It's now 6:00 in the morning. I will wait until Alec wakes up so he can take Gryff out for his morning pee and feed him. Might as well get a fresh start on Alec taking the dog out this morning since it's raining and I don't want to do it! :evil:


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Alec took Gryff out, but Gryff dug his heels in and wouldn't budge at all. I wound up having to go out with them, but Alec held the leash. We'll try working our way up.


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

*Gentle Leader*

Ivy,

Have you considered using the Gentle Leader with Grff so that Alec could handle the walk?
We used it on our Schnoodle, Magee. It took a little while for him to get used to it, but then walking him was a piece of cake. We could walk him with one finger holding the leash. He stayed right by my side. 
Perhaps the trainer could help you with this. If Alec could walk Gryff easily, perhaps things would improve.

I think it's great that Gryff will follow Alec's commands.

It must be frustrating that Gryff isn't very affectionate.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Nan, that is a good idea - the gentle leader was also recommended by my trainer. That might make it easier for Alec to walk Gryff. I'm mystified, Ivy - I wonder what Gryff is thinking!


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I don't know, but it really seems like sibling rivalry to me.


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

*Sibling Rivalry*

It probably IS sibling rivalry.

A former boss of mine told me that she was an only child who grew up with pets as her "siblings". She said she was always "fighting" with her dogs.
Her mother used to have to intervene.

It seems as if Alec is good with Gryff, but Gryff is the jealous sibling.


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## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

As an outsider looking in, it sounds like Gryff has you very well trained. He knows that if he refuses to go out with Alex, you will take him out. Could there be a lack of consistency and mixed messages? 

What was Gryff doing when he was growling at Alex? Was he chewing a bone or toy? If my dogs growl at the kids, I look to see why, if the kids are bugging the dog the kids are corrected, but if the kids are "innocent" the dogs are corrected, there is usually a reason, a chew toy, or bone which will be taken way from the dogs if they continue. I correct the dogs with a growlly nooooo. 

My dogs also have their kid free zone. If they are in their crates or beds the kids are to leave them alone.

Have you tried going to classes?


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Gryff does go to classes. I am going to talk with the trainer about this tomorrow. The odd thing is, Gryff isn't doing ANYTHING when he growls at Alec. He is usually just laying down. If Gryff has a toy, then he wants to play with Alec should Alec walk by.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Ivy, is it possible Gryff may be deaf in one ear and is therefore startled by Alec somehow because he doesn't hear him approach? Just throwing out any possibilities I can think of.


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Susan - Nope. Again, it is ONLY Alec he growls with (we are probably up to 10 times already today). He doesn't even treat strangers like this. This is really not good. I hope the trainers can come up with some ideas.


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Ivy, I've researched some suggestions on the web and like the following one:

You do the corrections but your son gives the commands. This is a nice set of suggestions and similar to what you are experiencing.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Dogs-701/Dog-growling-youngest-child.htm

Most of all, remember you are the pack leader and WILL NOT TOLERATE growling. The best way for a trainer to assess what's going on is to have them come into your home. They'll see things that you and I wouldn't. Dogs have very subtle signs.

By the way the growling at least is telling you that Gryff has restraint and in polite language that something about Alec is bugging him. It could have happened months ago and no one remembers except Gryff unfortunately.


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Lisa, I just found that same article and printed it out. It sounds exactly like what is going on in my house.


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## marisoma (Jan 20, 2008)

Ivy...I don't know what to say that hasn't been said, but I hope it gets better. 

I have the same issue with my almost 4mo old, Giotto. He is an exceptionally sweet and happy puppy, but he growls at the kids daily. He has since the day we brought him home. Now it has turned to snarls and today an attempt to bite. We have been firmly telling him "No!" and we put him down when he acts like that. I have made more of an effort to make sure the kids aren't over stimulating him or smothering him to cause him to react like this. Today he did the moment they entered the car. We were waiting for the kids in the pick up line and Giotto could see them and was all excited and then when Emma got into the car he growled and went to bite. IDK what to do about it anymore and it's sad because the kids adore him. They want to carry, pet, and play with him. He does accept them taking him on walks, and playing with him and feeding him. He obeys them when they ask him to sit or come. He just growls when they try and pet him or pick him up. It sounds like our guys have similar issues which I hope will be straightened out soon for both of us.

Lisa~ Thank you for the link to the article. It was very helpful and something I will try.


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I got a Havanese because they are supposed to be really great family dogs and good with kids. Gryff isn't a family dog at all. He had turned into a one-person dog all the way. I know that Kara's Gucci is very much like this as well. Is it just us or is the breed standard a marketing tool?

I will post again tomorrow after I talk with the trainer.

Hey - this is my 500th post - right back to where I started from with Gryff's growling.


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## marisoma (Jan 20, 2008)

That is why we got a Hav, too. Giotto is affectionate. He follows me everywhere, but he does love to see the kids and he goes up to any stranger or dog and wants to play or be petted. He just has this growling/snarling and now I fear biting issue. I don't know how common it is with the breed. I do expect that our issue with Giotto is more training than breeding, but it is still frustrating and worrisome. I want him to be a good family pet. I need him to be that since he will have daily contact with my kids and others. 

I started him in a training course last week and so far we are working on commands. Well, he's a champ at those. I don't even have to click and he sits, or lays, or comes on cue. He really wants to please and be around us. He just has this pesky growling habit. I will talk to them on Saturday and see if they have any advice to offer.


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang (May 21, 2007)

Ivy,

I'm so sorry Gryff is still having an issue with Alec. I hope the trainer can give you some good tips tomorrow!

While some breeds are known for their friendliness, trainability , etc., individual dogs are just that, individuals. So while certain traits might be prevalent in a breed, there's no guarantee that every dog of that breed will have all the desirable traits. 

Some dogs are more alpha or nervous than others...and that flavors their personality. That doesn't mean they're not trainable though, it just might take a little more work.

I've got my fingers crossed that Gryff can get over this hump and become an all-around happy guy for all of you.

Wanda


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Thanks Wanda. I know he is highly trainable. He learns new commands very quickly and obeys all of us at home. He just has this one thing we need to work out. Unfortunately, it's a really big thing.

We put our cat down a few years ago and haven't had a pet since. Tony was a miserable excuse for a cat. He was absolutely vicious, but my theory is that you get a pet for life. I wasn't ready for another pet with social issues, I wanted a best friend for my son.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Wow, I am so sorry to hear this.  I know how upset you must be. I never tolerate any growling towards my children, mind you they do leave him alone when he wants peace. I never leave them unsupervised because I never want Oreo to feel overwhelmed. Oreo's issue is nervousness around other dogs, people he LOVES and he is very patient with children.

I guess the standard is just that, a standard and dogs are individuals with different tendencies. When you said Gryff listens to your son when he gives commands. Is he always getting a treat? Is it possible the only reason he is being nice is because of the treat? Does he listen simply because you and Alec say so? I agree with Debbie that as an outsider looking in, Gryff has you somewhat trained. They are cute and know how soft we can be with them because of it. But dogs are dogs. I hope you are able to locate professional help to stop this behaviour asap.


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Actually, no Alec doesn't need to have a treat in his hand for Gryff to obey his commands. It's all very confusing. My dog is schizophrenic...or maybe I am.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Okay so that shows he is quite capable of listening and being respectful. Get some help asap, because it can only escalate from here.  What if one day he decides that growling is not enough and it then leads to biting? I hate to think of that. 

Has Gryff been seen by the vet to rule out any health issues? Anxiety? That would be a great place to start to rule out anything. I am sure this has been mentioned before. Then get a behaviourist to come and observe to assess what may be going on. Hopefully its just a matter of establishing some boundaries and keeping them consistent like a regular part of your life.


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## mom23girls (Nov 26, 2007)

Ivy,
I'm so sorry to hear about your situation. I know it's nearly impossible to expect a 7 year old to take over the responsibilities of Gryff. We tried it with our 9 year old and life just gets in the way. The vet told me about a training class put out by 4-H. It's just the kids and dogs and may help to establish the pack order for Gryff. I'm going to try & have my 9 year old take Amy in the spring. Even if he takes obedience classes already, it couldn't hurt to let Alec & Gryff have total one on one time and perhaps Gryff will begin to see view him differently. Also...the class is only $10 for kids. Good luck Ivy, I hope you can find a good behaviorist who can help you right away.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Helen- I recently saw something come across the list about aggressive dogs and thyroid issues. Good idea.

Jen- that is a great idea. A special class may really strengthen the bond.


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

The trainers told me that they have seen this many times with a child Alec's age and a dog Gryff's age. Here is the recommendation. For this week, Alec is the only person feeding Gryff. He is going to hand feed him with commands. If Gryff growls during the feeding, Gryff doesn't eat. When Alec walks past Gryff without incident, he will give Gryff a piece of kibble and say Good Dog. Alec will take Gryff out under my supervision. While they are out, I will turn back and walk into the house first, and they will follow me. When they get in, Gryff will be rewarded. If Gryff growls at Alec, he gets squirted with a squirt bottle and a firm No Growling. During playtime, Alec stays static. They can play ball, etc, but Alec can't run and be chased.

This is the plan for this week. We will take it to the next step next week. What do you all think?


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## mom23girls (Nov 26, 2007)

Good luck, Ivy! I hope this helps with the growling. I'm sure he'll "get it" especially after the water bottle. I've heard that works. He is just so cute! I love your avatar!


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Ivy, it sounds good to me. I hope it begins to work for Gryff and Alec. It'll be interesting to hear what the next step is after they implement this one. It is good to hear that your trainers have dealt successfully with this situation before.


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Dinner went very well. Alec told Gryff to lie down, then fed him successfully from his hand. When he would get another handfull, he would have Gryff sit, then feed him some more. It was wonderful to watch them together. I'll keep you all posted. Other than that and a walk, Alec has sort of kept his distance from Gryff today to give him some space. We've had no growling this evening...yet.


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Wow - this sounds like really good news. I'd thought of the age thing too - Gryff is likely in an adolescence and they do like to see if they can change the pack hierarchy at that stage. I do like the squirt bottle - I use it quite a bit for barking that gets out of hand. The idea of Alec staying more calm around him is a good plan too. Here's wishing you good luck - little Gryff is going to be one awesome dog with your hard work.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Ivy this sounds like a great plan to me, you are basically using posative reinforcement for when Gryff is being good and not growling. Next week she will proabably have pull back on the rewards a little.


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I love you guys!


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## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

Good luck with all your homework. I'm so happy you are getting some positive help. :hug:


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## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

It sounds like the plan has shown some results already!!! I am so happy for you and your family.


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I am so excited and really encouraged! There was no growling yesterday, ever since Alec got home from school and hand-fed Gryff. This morning, he took the dog out and he didn't dig his heels in at all. After Gryff pooped and while he was peeing, I backed away and went into the house. He saw me go, but stayed and finished his business. When he was done, the two of them WALKED back into the house. Gryff didn't run like a maniac to get to me. Then came his breakfast and he followed Alec's every command and ate nicely from his hands. When he was finished, Alec told him to lie down and he was able to pet him for a bit before Gryff got up and walked away and Alec didn't try tracking him down. 

The only bit that worries me is during the hand feeding I gave Alec the bowl to see what would happen if he held the bowl instead of using his hands as the bowl. Gryff wouldn't eat from the bowl! I can see it now - my dog refusing to eat unless he's hand fed. That wouldn't be good at all.

Anyway, so far so good. Thanks for all your encouragement. I'll keep you posted.


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## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

Very encouraging. Keep up the good work Alec and Gryff!!!


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

Great news about Alec and Gryff!


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Ivy, these are terrific news. You guys seem to be on the right track!!! I wouldn't be worried about Gryff only wanting to be hand fed. Maybe the next step will be to let some kibble fall into the bowl and have Gryff eat it out of the bowl. Don't worry, there will be a way out of that dilemma.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Hi Ivy,

Sounds promising! I hope all goes well from here on!

Did you let your breeder know about Gryff's 'growling' issues with your son? Did they offer up any advice?

Ryan


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Ryan,

I told her about it when we first got Gryff and she was surprised since she hadn't heard that about any of the other puppies. She offered to take him back, but I didn't want that. 

When we first got Gryff, Alec was afraid of dogs. He warmed up to Gryff, but he was very awkward around him at first. I think Gryff seized on that immediately and tried to bully Alec from the start.


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## Gracie's Mom (Sep 7, 2007)

Ivy - I know your frustrated, but it sounds like you may have found a plan that will work. We have had our problems with Gracie as well - not aggression, but complete avoidance of any other family member but me. We have found that the fun chase me and abrupt hand movements really turn the relationship (except with me). She is appearing to have a blast, but then she won't allow the others hold her or to even give her a treat. Once we figured out that may be our problem - my daughter and husband quit doing it and she is beginning to come around about 2 1/2 months later!!! But it IS working - slowly. Also - my husband used the sprayer on her ONCE because she was barking a lot and she seemed to hold a grudge for a very long time. I think you just have to know that every dog is different. If your plan is working for Gryff then continue. I hope this gets resolved soon. I know your frustration as my daughter was the one that really wanted a dog and Gracie likes her the least. I feel SOO bad!!

Karen


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## Poornima (Jun 29, 2007)

Ivy, it is great that there is a lot of progress and I hope things continue to improve and you enjoy watching "a cute boy and his adorable dog". Good luck!


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Oh my, it's getting worse. Three times this morning, Gryff lashed out at Alec, just because he walked past him. I'm not talking about growling. This was a full on bark and snarl. I'm getting worried. I just emailed the breeder to find out if she's heard of this behavior in any of the rest of the litter. If he bites Alec I may have no choice but to find him a family with no kids. This breaks my heart.


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Oh Ivy, I'm so sorry to read this this morning. I really hope someone can help you out in this situation and put Gryff back in his spot, on the bottom of the pack order, but still part of your family. Maybe you should email Cesar Milan???


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Ivy, I am so sorry you are still having so many issues. I wish I could make it better for you. :hug:


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I just sent the trainer an email, but I think I'll call the vet. He has been sleeping a lot lately too. Maybe he's sick? He runs around and plays, but not as much as usual.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

I could be that now that things changed he is not happy and wants things to go back to the way they were. That is pretty scary, and it was good you contacted the breeder to see if anyone has noticed this behaviour in her lines as well. This really has me stumped, because Oreo is nervous and is afraid of 'his own kind', well mainly larger dogs, but he is able to make friends. I find this so out of sort because despite the shyness Oreo has, once he gets to know someone he wants to be friends. I wonder how Alec must be feeling too  This is so sad. :grouphug: We are here for you. :grouphug:


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

Wow, what a roller coaster. It looked like things were taking a dramitic swing in the positive direction and then went right back down just as fast. You are a very strong person to be dealing with this. Amanda mentioned something about thyroid and agression, I also saw the article. Maybe they should test his levels. Maybe it could make him sleepy to if his levels are off? It seems like it could be something other than training just cause he does so well in most areas. I hope you can figure out how to curb the growling cause it must be scarey for you and Alec. Best of luck to you!!


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Hi Ivy,

How large is Gryff? Is he just a small boy, or a larger hav? Just curious as to how your son is dealing with this?? I'm sure he feels badly to? Or is he just pissed off at this point? Hopefully this all works out for you guys! 


Ryan


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Oh Ivy, I'm so sorry this is happening. I cannot imagine what is going through Gryff's head. You have been amazingly patient and so willing to do whatever it takes to get things on the right track. I had so hoped the last suggestions would work for you. Let us know what the trainer says.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Ivy, I am so sorry to hear that this is happening. I hope that the trainer and your breeder will be able to help you out on this one.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Ivy, I just remembered that you mentioned in an earlier post that you let Gryff wander around the house at night and that he sleeps in your bed. Perhaps this is giving him a false sense of status? I would suggest that you crate him at night if you are not doing so. There are also some other things you can do to make him realize his place in the pack. Don't allow him on the couch or the bed at all, make sure that he sits and waits for everyone in the family to go through a door before he does, make him sit and wait or down and wait for every meal, and make sure that everything that he wants to get he does something for, like if he wants you to throw a toy for him, he needs to do a sit first, things like that.

I'm not sure if it's too late for you to start using these suggestions, but I think they can really help establish pack dominance over your dog.


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## mom23girls (Nov 26, 2007)

Ivy,
Just a thought, can you put a leash and collar on him & then immediately correct him when he growls with a tug and a firm "quiet!" Do you think he's not connecting the growling with being undesirable behavior? If you put him in a situation where he would normally growl & hold onto the leash, perhaps that immediate correction would trigger something. Can you tell I watch waayyy too many episodes of Dog Whisperer? lol I'm just thinking that if hee sees the behavior and consequence happen over & over, he'll eventually get it.

He is just such a cutie, every time I see his picture, it makes me smile!


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Oh Ivy, I'm sorry to hear about the latest developments. I was reading this thread feeling frustrated for you and then very happy that things seemed to be going so well. I'm sure Alec is wondering why it's so much work just to get the dog to be nice to him. I can understand your concerns.

I wonder if you'd consider looking at Caesar Milan's methods. I know you've 'been there, done that' and have had lots of advice from trainers, but I'm just grasping here... hoping something might help your situation. I'm sure Gryff isn't a happy boy if he's growling so often. 

Btw, every time I see your avatar, I think Gryff is standing in an elevator, waiting to get to his floor! LOL Too cute.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Jen, that's what i was thinking too!!! lol


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

He is on our bed at night, but he usually doesn't roam around anymore. He needs to sit before he's fed and we have him wait to go through the door. He is actually well trained, it's just this nasty behavior he's got going on.

Here's something that might be interesting. Today I brought him over to his friend Maggie's house. Maggie is really the only other dog he plays with and they are good pals. They haven't played together in a while and only one other time at her house. Gryff cowered behind the furniture for almost an hour. He would come out and check out the situation, the hide again. Finally, he decided he wanted to play and they had a great time. During the playdate, he started humping her, which is something he's never done before. Could his growling/barking at Alec be some kind of macho-dog sexual thing? I know he's at this "adolescent" stage, so this would be the time for that to happen if that's what is going on.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Ivy, humping is actually a dominance thing, not sexual, especially in a neutered dog. Gryff was just trying to establish dominance over Maggie. I really do think his issue with Alec is dominance and he thinks that he is above him in the pack. I want to stress that I really think you should get Gryff off your bed. He is in an exalted position by being allowed to sleep up there and until he gets his act together, that is a privilege that he should not have. I hope you can figure this out soon.


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Lina, do I need to put him in a crate or can I just take the doggie steps away from the bed and have him lie in a doggy bed on the floor?


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

*Off the bed*

Ivy,
I agree with Lina about the bed/dominance issue.

I would definitely crate him at night.

I am so sorry about all this. Having a puppy should be more fun and not so much of a challenge. 
I really admire your committment to Gryff and I truly hope things change with all the help and advice you are getting.

Seriously, maybe you should contact Cesar. It would make for a very interesting show and would help you with Gryff.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Ivy, I think that you should crate him. I'm not sure how easy this will be for you if you haven't done it before, but I do think it will be best. If you really are against crating, and I do think it will be best, you should close the door of your bedroom and put him on the dog bed on the floor. Don't let him wander and don't let him on your bed.

Keep us updated!


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

I agree, contact Ceaser! That would be a great show! 

Has there ever been a Havanese on his show? (I think Will smiths Hav made an appearance one episode?)

Ryan


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## TnTWalter (May 9, 2007)

Forgive me I'm late to this post.

My dog Winston has issues with my son .... now my son is 5 and is not the gentlest. And usually Winston is in the right. But when he was new to our house it was unsolicited and getting worse. I believe I posted had people tell me to IMMEDIATELY correct. I had all kids do this. If he snipped or growled thew would roll him on his back and growl. Then they would praise like crazy when he kissed to make up. I also had my son give him treats, but never the meal. But if Winston pooped or peed [we were potty training] my son would give the praise and treat.

You've probably been told the above. Hope it helps a little. Winston still growls at him but usually it's because son is doing something annoying and I will separate them. My old dog would growl when he was annoyed also but never more so I'm assuming it's a 'stop pestering me boy' groan.

I'd also recommend him on the floor not your bed. People expressed how important pack order is and the alpha gets most comfortable spot [ie the bed] so he needs to be on the floor. We have Pepper visiting this week and she tried several times the first night to be on our bed [she's a little Alpha] and I just pushed her off [hey I was tired...LOL] and said 'lay down'. Now she just goes right to the dog bed with Winston.

She also humps Winston all the time. LOL. He just sits there Like "I know you're the princess, I know'. Side note....my son humps Winston! He'll stand over him and wiggle his rump in the air [in Winston's pre-neuter days, he was quite 'fond' of a stuffed bear...and I called it 'dancing'....so Stevie does it occasionally!]:biggrin1: Perhaps that's why Winston is better with him. LOL.

So sorry you're going through this. I really hope it resolves. Have you contacted a trainer in the area? If it's gotten worse instead of better, perhaps that's the next step? Best of luck.


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I went to Cesar Milan's website and they happen to be asking for submissions right now! I need to make a video and send it in. I will have to get to it right away.


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Good luck Ivy, hope you get some great help either way!


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

I have to confess that I didn't read through the entire thread so this may have been mentioned, but, is there any chance Alec may have hurt the dog before? I have a small grandson who pinched one of the dogs and now the dog does not like him. He also chased the dog around and scared the dog to bits. Sometimes small children don't realize just how little these dogs are. Just a thought???
xxoox


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I'm sure he's hurt him in the past, but nothing serious. Just play stuff. He doesn't malevolently pull his tail or anything like that.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

mellowbo said:


> ...is there any chance Alec may have hurt the dog before?


I'm so sorry to hear that Gryff's behavior is getting worse, Ivy. How discouraging. I was also wondering the same thing that mellowbo asked - perhaps Gryff's behavior towards Alec is more a _fear-aggressive_ behavior vs. a dominance issue.

How cool that Cesar is taking submissions for his show - hope you get picked!!


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