# Casper's high ALT's testing



## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

Casper has high ALT's and his bile acid post meal testing was high. Here is the results I have gotten so far.

6/11/2008
ALT 317 (high)	12-118
BUN 27 (high)	6-25
All other blood work normal

12/3/08
ALT 347 (high)	12-118
BUN 24	6-25
All other blood work normal

4/30/09
bile acid pre-meal	6.3 <13
Bile acid post meal	38.4 (high)	<25
All other blood work normal

5/14/09
ALT 149 (high) 12-118
BUN 32 (high) 6-25

*On his last 5/14/09 his ALT was down from 347 to 149, the test was done by another vet and lab, can there be a variance in the results with different labs and vets? *

I had made no big changes in his diet and had not started any liver supplements to cause the ALT to go down.

His bile acid test on 4/30 didn't seem that bad to me, but the vet said he had a compromised liver with the those results.

I took Casper to a Holistic vet and he wanted to his own complete blood work up and allergy test ($361.90) to the total of $658.40 that was on 5/14 I was trying to get him to help me with a diet and a supplement&#8230;well I have neither at this time.

*This vet thinks allergies can cause these liver problems&#8230;have you ever heard of this? Or is this vet just trying to get more $$$$?*

I am so confused as to what to feed him, between the allergy testing and what I have read about diet for the compromised liver.


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## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

Lynn, I am certainly not an expert on this, but I can tell you my experience with Dugan. When he was neutered at 6 months, his ALT was high, around 213. I waited 3 months and got him tested again and it was 210. We did the bile acid tests and if I remember correctly, the before eating was normal, but the after eating was 65 or so. We decided to put Dugan on antibiotics and see if perhaps there was some sort of infection causing a problem. I also changed his food to one that was lower in protein. I switched him to Newman's own, but he started itching so I just switched him to Fromms (with a single protein to help avoid allergies). I also used to give him a lot of boiled chicken for treats and snacks, so I changed this to sweet potatoes to get rid of some of the protein. We went back for bloodwork again a week or so ago and everything was within normal range. Perhaps you want to try to change his diet before anything else. From what I have heard, if they have a shunt, their Bile Acid is usually over 100. My vet suggested I try a fish protein (and stay with one of the lower protein foods) to avoid the allergy issues. I hope this helps.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Lynn said:


> ...... the test was done by another vet and lab, can there be a variance in the results with different labs and vets?
> 
> I had made no big changes in his diet and had not started any liver supplements to cause the ALT to go down.
> 
> ...


Yes, Lynn, different labs can have different results and also different norms. I've found it to be true in our case with Ricky and was told by the vet to always consider which lab is testing.

It could very well be that Casper reacted to some type of toxin (in the air, the back yard, his food/water, from vaccines, or other meds...) and that is what caused the initial high ALT and BAT 'after' results.

I am disappointed that the homeopathic vet didn't recommend a remedy, diet change and/or supplement to help Casper's liver. I don't know about allergies causing such problems with the liver, but then.... ? You could try feeding a lower protein food AND give Casper a supplement such as Denosyl (SAM-e) or Denamrin (SAM-e and milk thistle - even better). There are other herbal tinctures that help support the liver too that can help. Like this one: http://www.natural-pet-info.org/liv...d&ysmtac=PPC&gclid=CK-8zNiwm5oCFSMeDQodkBWe9Q

But..... since his results are now much lower and out of the danger zone, it might be a non-issue. It is likely something that passed through his system and he dealt with it, his liver dealt with it and it's now gone. I'd retest in 3 months or so, and if the readings are still as low as your May ones, then I wouldn't worry.  What is the BUN again?


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

Take Marj's advice.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

There's a really great liver issue yahoo list. You could jump on there and go through their files section. There is great advice in there. Sorry, I don't know the name of it but you can search the yahoo groups and it's the big list


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Lynn, I am sorry the answers are not clear. I do not know anything about the liver issues other than what I have read here...but I would be encouraged by the lower results. Does Casper act healthy? Hugs to you all.


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

marjrc said:


> Yes, Lynn, different labs can have different results and also different norms. I've found it to be true in our case with Ricky and was told by the vet to always consider which lab is testing.
> 
> But..... since his results are now much lower and out of the danger zone, it might be a non-issue. It is likely something that passed through his system and he dealt with it, his liver dealt with it and it's now gone. I'd retest in 3 months or so, and if the readings are still as low as your May ones, then I wouldn't worry.  *What is the BUN again?*


Marj,
I believe the BUN reading is the reading for the kidney function, I thought that with the high ALT readings they look at the BUN readings also....but I might be wrong.

I might have a false sense of relief with the third ALT testing of (149) because it was taken at a different lab than the first two readings of ALT347-317. The norms of the lab testing was the same of 12-118 at both labs.

I will get him retested in the next 3 months, I am going to work on his diet and a supplement.

It was good that I have the forum to read about this...I read everyones experiences with the high ALT and BATs and I think all of them with changed with diet and supplements, so I didn't want to put Casper ( who hates the vet ) though alot of testing until I work on his diet.


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

Missy said:


> Lynn, I am sorry the answers are not clear. I do not know anything about the liver issues other than what I have read here...but I would be encouraged by the lower results. Does Casper act healthy? Hugs to you all.


Hi Missy,
Yes, Casper acts normal...eats good, poops ok, plays live crazy with my Missy.
The only difference I can see between him and Missy is he likes to sleep a little more than she does during the day, but he is a year older than her.

But that is the thing with all this...they just don't act sick with these kind of high ALT's and my vet said some breeds just have a raised ALT readings, but I don't thing we know that to be a fact with the Havanese breed.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Exactly, Lynn, what you say in your last post is so true. Ricky also acts completely normal but that darn ALT is at 445 now! I'm back to diet and supplements so, like you, will retest in 3 mths. 

In the meantime, I'm sure Casper will be perfectly fine and enjoy his summer. That last reading, even if at a diff. lab, is reassuring.


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

thanks Marj, you are so much help to us all


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Dr. Center said that she was very close to having some answers for us. Lightning is in her study because he has normal levels. I'm not quite sure why she wanted him in there since his levels are good but she said he was the missing piece of the pie. I about fell over when she said that and I'm curious to see a report from her.


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## MaddiesMom (Apr 1, 2007)

Lynn, that's great that Casper's ALT has come down! If I were you, I'd definitely just try a little lower protein diet and possibly supplement with Denamarin and see if things keep getting better. You're definitely going in the right direction. As for the BUN, actually its a *low* BUN that goes with liver disease. BUN is a kidney function test (blood urea nitrogen), but since urea is made in the liver, a low BUN indicates chronic liver disease. Panda (my first Havanese) had a low BUN in addition to her high liver enzymes. The specialist said this was just another indication of liver disease. A healthy dog can get a higher BUN just from eating high amounts of protein. If the creatinine blood test is normal (it is a better test of kidney function), then I wouldn't worry about a slightly higher BUN.

I've never heard of allergies causing liver problems other than reactions to vaccinations. If you want to look at files in the yahoo liver group, here's the website: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/canineliver-d/ You'll have to join first to see the posts and responses. It was a very valuable website to me when I was dealing with Panda's liver disease.


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

thank-you Jeanne, I am definately going to join the yahoo liver group.

thanks for explaining the BUN readings


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

JASHavanese said:


> Dr. Center said that she was very close to having some answers for us. Lightning is in her study because he has normal levels. I'm not quite sure why she wanted him in there since his levels are good but she said he was the missing piece of the pie. I about fell over when she said that and I'm curious to see a report from her.


Jan, 
Do you have any idea when she might have some answers?


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

I had joined that same liver group, thanks to members here suggesting it, and though it can be incredibly overwhelming to sift through all the information, it is a great group to learn more and get support from. Though Casper doesn't sound like he has a sick liver, he may just have a 'liver issue', sort of like what Ricky has. If it's something that can be controlled nicely with a change of diet and a supplement or two, then that's not bad. 

Of course, it took me forever to finally think this way, so I know where you're coming from! 

Jan, Rita Thomas, from Sonrisas in Ontario has been close to Dr. Center and following her studies as well. She and I have discussed this a few times. It's going to be very interesting to hear what comes of it.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Lynn, I wish I had answers for you but don't.
Marj I'll have to ask Rita if she has heard anything. I wrote to Dr Center maybe a month or two ago and asked her if she had an update for the Hotline and told her she has my dog in the study and didn't hear anything back but then again I understand that her focus is the study and not answering emails all day.
The liver group can get overwhelming with all of the emails but the information in the files is gold and I'd dig around in there for answers if I had a problem.
I found out we had liver issues in our breed through pet people on here and jumped on the list to find out more. 
So many pet people don't give themselves enough credit. I count on you to keep me up to speed on what breeders don't talk about. Your honesty helps me learn and hopefully breed better.


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## Lunastar (Feb 9, 2009)

{{{LYNN}}} I hope that everyone who is playing that awful waiting games gets really good result when their three months is up.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Jan, I agree that a breeder should hear about all their pups, show dogs or not and it's very nice to hear that some of you are genuinely interested and keeping tabs on this for the betterment of your litters and the breed.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

I think you have to take the high ALT levels with a grain of salt. Last year Bogart had his wellness test and his ALT levels came back high. The doctor wanted to run a bunch of tests. I looked at Bogart and didn't see anything wrong with him nor any change in his personality, eating habits or peeing habits. So instead I did some reading and found that there are numerous reasons why his ALT levels could be high. The most simple reason being perhaps eating too soon to his blood being taken. 

I told the vet that I didn't see any reason to do any tests and will monitor Bogart. For the last year nothing has changed with Bogart. Same diet, same habits. Last week we went for his annual test and this time I made sure he didn't eat anything from 7pm the night before until after 9am when his appt was scheduled for. 

Doctor called me back the other day to report that his and Brando's ALT levels are all perfectly normal. Thankfully I didn't waste a ton of money on tests and medication for somthing that wasn't necessary. Too many people are so quick to jump to the worst case scenario and start changing diets, doing tons of expensive tests and or giving medication. 

JMHO


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I think that is why my Vet chooses not to test unless they see something that makes them nervous. Just like humans...anything can mess the numbers up.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

That is very interesting, Daniel. What I'm concerned with, then, is why is it that simply eating raises the ALT? Shouldn't a healthy liver be able to deal with food (any food) and not have a reaction?? 

I dunno...... just asking, as I really want to know as much as I can about this.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Well I assume it's no different than when going for blood work and your doctor tells you to fast for a day. Food can have all sorts of effects on the blood tests since they are so sensitive. Who knows? Just a guess on my part.


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

I have no advice or wisdom to offer other than I have been keeping up with this thread and hope all works out the way it should.


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

DanielBMe said:


> Well I assume it's no different than when going for blood work and your doctor tells you to fast for a day. Food can have all sorts of effects on the blood tests since they are so sensitive. Who knows? Just a guess on my part.


The most simple reason being perhaps eating too soon to his blood being taken. quote from DanielBMe

I am really wondering if there might be something to this also, because when we had the scare of dog treats made from China being bad, I stopped buying dog treats from the store and started giving Casper cooked beef stew meat. He loved it and I put it in his Kong daily. I did not know until later that red meat was bad for dogs with high ALT's. I used beef because chicken makes him itch.

Maybe that is why his ALT's readings for so high the two times he had his test, - because he was eating alot of red meat-----the only diet change I made was to cut way back on the beef and add turkey and some chicken and I alternate his food, then his ALT test came back with 149 reading.


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## Lunastar (Feb 9, 2009)

You know all this sort of makes sense. One of my cats has high liver enzymes. The vet recommended just watching her. She has always had them and seems perfectly fine. We did do an ultra sound which showed a possible thickening in one area but nothing definate. Since biopsies of the liver come with their own set of problems the vet says just wait and see unless she shows symptoms. She is on denamarine and we use cat lax for hair balls since vomitting is also bad for the liver. He said these high numbers could just be normal for her. I have notice that if she does have a hairball before the blood work her numbers are higher.


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