# Please Stop Growing!



## emichel (May 3, 2012)

Seems like there have been a lot of posts on here lately about Havanese weights. Well, I stopped by the vet yesterday to pick up some flea meds and get Benjamin weighed, and found that at 1 year and 2 months he is now 18 lbs! The vet says he is not fat at all, just big. I _really_ hope he is pretty much at his full weight by now, just because he still just fits into his little carrying case, and I'd rather not have to buy another one, but mostly because the little bugger is getting hard for me to carry! I was told that his mom weighed 10 lbs and dad 13 lbs, so I was thinking he'd probably top out at 13 to 15 lbs. Well, I will manage no matter how big he gets, but it a bit of a struggle to lift him up and down from his car seat, or to carry him in his carrier. I take him shopping with me all the time, and he rides around in the grocery cart so that's no problem. It's just lugging him from the car to the cart, and then lifting him up into it. Hey, buddy, I'm not getting any younger! Oh well, it helps me stay in shape, but I'm just a little surprised that he is getting so big!!!:faint:


----------



## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

He probably is done with height but many dogs still "fill in" some afterwards.


----------



## rdanielle (Sep 2, 2008)

Just wondering was he neutered before he turned 1?


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

rdanielle said:


> Just wondering was he neutered before he turned 1?


I always wonder if Kodi would have stayed a bit smaller if I'd known what I do now, and waited longer to neuter him. (he was done at 7 months)


----------



## m0rg4n (Feb 8, 2013)

krandall said:


> I always wonder if Kodi would have stayed a bit smaller if I'd known what I do now, and waited longer to neuter him. (he was done at 7 months)


I would love to read up on this. Is there anywhere specifically you found this information?


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

m0rg4n said:


> I would love to read up on this. Is there anywhere specifically you found this information?


It is well known in horses that males neutered before maturity grow taller. That is why they geld smaller race colts... to get a little more leg-length on them.

Now there is a growing body of evidence that this is true in dogs too. Dogs that are neutered early tend to be taller and narrower. Kodi would STILL have been a big Hav, but since he is just a shade over the standard for height, I will always wonder if I had waited to neuter him, if he would have stayed under. It doesn't matter... He was sold to me with the understanding that he would be neutered, and even if he's remained within standard, his family is WELL represented in the gene pool. (he has a number of close relatives, including several full siblings right here on the forum!) His gorgeous sire is still standing at stud, and the Kings have kept a smaller pup from a later litter of his parents to breed on.

This is a much bigger issue in large breed dogs, where early, fast growth can lead to joint/arthritis as the dog ages. While our little guys might get a BIT bigger, they are STILL too small for that to be a real issue.

(BTW, even among Kodi's neutered brothers, he is the ONLY one who got as big as he is. So it's not JUST an issue of neutering, and both of Kodi's parents are RIGHT in the middle of the "preferred" size range. It's also how the genes of past dogs in the pedigree roll the dice!)


----------



## Larry (Jun 14, 2013)

I have a similar case. My Havanese is 8 months old and just yesterday weighed in at 20.8 pounds! He was the largest of his litter--I am still in touch with one of his brothers who is half his weight. I'm guessing he's just BIG. He hasn't been neutered yet--will be in a couple of weeks.

Larry


----------



## emichel (May 3, 2012)

Benjamin was neutered at 8 1/2 months. I had to do it that early because I wanted to bring him to daycare and they required it, and also because he was getting really squirrely with marking (fortunately only outside) and humping my leg. Interesting info on the early neutering business, but I am wondering too if the "bigness genes" are just becoming more prevalent within the breed. Or maybe they're getting fed better? Well, it really doesn't matter that much to me, it's just not what I expected. I do know that I've seen a few _really tiny_ dogs (not Havanese) that weighed maybe 3 pounds as adults, and I definitely would not want that. For me, the Havanese, from smallest to largest, are within the perfect size range.

Larry, it does sound like you have a particularly big one. It will be interesting to see how big he ends up as an adult!


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

emichel said:


> Benjamin was neutered at 8 1/2 months. I had to do it that early because I wanted to bring him to daycare and they required it, and also because he was getting really squirrely with marking (fortunately only outside) and humping my leg. Interesting info on the early neutering business, but I am wondering too if the "bigness genes" are just becoming more prevalent within the breed. Or maybe they're getting fed better? Well, it really doesn't matter that much to me, it's just not what I expected. I do know that I've seen a few _really tiny_ dogs (not Havanese) that weighed maybe 3 pounds as adults, and I definitely would not want that. For me, the Havanese, from smallest to largest, are within the perfect size range.


I really don't believe that the breed, as a whole is getting larger. There were ALWAYS big dogs in the breed. Kodi's breeder has been breeding Havanese for MANY years (I believe 6 generations at this point) and the size of the dogs the produce (with the exception of my jackpot pup ) has been pretty uniform over that entire time.

When I look at dogs in the show ring, and talk to breeders involved in our local club, they are all producing dogs of moderate size around here.

Again, if you count in all the BYB's and puppy mills that do NOT work on breeding to standard, of course that is going to skew the averages. We probably wouldn't be able to get people to give that information, but I bet if you asked people what their dog's size was AND whether the dog came from a breeder who BREEDS TO STANDARD AND titles their breeding stock, I think you wouldn't see so many that were way above standard in size. And as I've said, though Kodi is above standard, it's just a bit. He's not ENORMOUSLY over standard.


----------



## Larry (Jun 14, 2013)

krandall said:


> II bet if you asked people what their dog's size was AND whether the dog came from a breeder who BREEDS TO STANDARD AND titles their breeding stock, I think you wouldn't see so many that were way above standard in size. And as I've said, though Kodi is above standard, it's just a bit. He's not ENORMOUSLY over standard.


For the record, my own dog (weighing in at nearly 21 pounds at 8 mos.) _is_ from a breeder who breeds to standard. I'm no expert on breeding, but I was provided all the information on the breeding stock, siblings, etc. The mother is an AKC champion, and I believe the father is as well. Schroeder was a fluke, the only one of his litter that exceeded the standard in this way.

Larry


----------



## emichel (May 3, 2012)

My dog is not from a BYB, and she does show her dogs and breed to standard. Maybe he's just big because he is being raised in such a happy healthy environment.


----------



## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Just to add a note to this conversation, there is one thing that can have as much an impact on size or even more than genetics - the birth order of the puppies. From what I understand, and I forget the exact terminology, I'd have to look it up, puppies are in their individual placentas AND also in groups with regard to blood flow and nutrients. This is why the first puppy is almost always the largest and the last one can be a runt. The first, largest puppy is getting more nutrients in the pregnancy and the last one less. Some litters are more or less even weights , some have more of an imbalance. This is one reason why puppies can be larger or smaller than their parents.


----------



## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

krandall said:


> Again, if you count in all the BYB's and puppy mills that do NOT work on breeding to standard, of course that is going to skew the averages. We probably wouldn't be able to get people to give that information, but I bet if you asked people what their dog's size was AND whether the dog came from a breeder who BREEDS TO STANDARD AND titles their breeding stock, I think you wouldn't see so many that were way above standard in size. And as I've said, though Kodi is above standard, it's just a bit. He's not ENORMOUSLY over standard.


Brady is my oversized boy! He is not fat, just big. He is 21 pounds or so. He is from champion parents and a very reputable breeder. He was big since day 1. He was a singleton so he was born big! My Mom's havanese who is also from a very reputable breeder and is a retired Canadian and American champion is also on the large size. Bacca is around 16-17 pounds.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Larry said:


> For the record, my own dog (weighing in at nearly 21 pounds at 8 mos.) _is_ from a breeder who breeds to standard. I'm no expert on breeding, but I was provided all the information on the breeding stock, siblings, etc. The mother is an AKC champion, and I believe the father is as well. Schroeder was a fluke, the only one of his litter that exceeded the standard in this way.
> 
> Larry


There certainly are exceptions... even in very good breeding programs. Kodi isn't THAT big, but he's over standard too, and like your Schroeder, is the only one of, not only his litter, bay ANY of the litters from that pair, to go over standard.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

emichel said:


> My dog is not from a BYB, and she does show her dogs and breed to standard. Maybe he's just big because he is being raised in such a happy healthy environment.


I'm NOT saying that all Havanese who go over standard are poorly bred. Obviously I don't think that, since I HAVE one of them, and love my breeder.  What I disagreed with was the comment that someone made that Havanese IN GENERAL are getting bigger. I don't believe this is the case among well bred Havs. There will always be individuals who end up above and below standard


----------



## marlowe'sgirl (Jun 17, 2010)

atsilvers27 said:


> Just to add a note to this conversation, there is one thing that can have as much an impact on size or even more than genetics - the birth order of the puppies. From what I understand, and I forget the exact terminology, I'd have to look it up, puppies are in their individual placentas AND also in groups with regard to blood flow and nutrients. This is why the first puppy is almost always the largest and the last one can be a runt. The first, largest puppy is getting more nutrients in the pregnancy and the last one less. Some litters are more or less even weights , some have more of an imbalance. This is one reason why puppies can be larger or smaller than their parents.


I always assumed this, but my Hav was the last of 6 born and was the giant of his litter (they called him Bear). As I said, he's now a very healthy 18 lbs. His smaller brother went along to get his CH and is a stud.


----------



## swaye (Mar 28, 2013)

We had a rescued GSD pup who was spayed at 6 months and never had a health problem. She died 4 years ago at age 12, which is on the old side for for a GSD. We had several mutts from the animal shelter before the GSD and most recently adopted a retired greyhound racer. All were spayed at 6 months, the greyhound neutered at 4 years. All were healthy except the greyhound. He developed an auto immune disorder during his time with us. A complicated health disorder. We had to have him put down last August at the age of 12. Our mutts outlived the purebreds.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

swaye said:


> Our mutts outlived the purebreds.


I can't put my fingers on it right now, but there was actually a study recently released looking at the incidence of various health problems in purebreds vs. mixed breeds. The findings were interesting because while some diseases were more common in purebreds, other were more common in mixed breeds, and a NUMBER of them were about the same whether the dog was purebred or mixed breed, and seemed to have more to do with the size of the dg than the breed. Overall, the health outcome was very similar for both groups.

As far as average age is concerned, this seemed to have more to do with size than breed (or mix) with the exception of a few breeds, like Cavaliers, who have a serious, known, genetic problem in the whole group even though they are small dogs. There were a couple of exceptions in the other direction too... larger dogs that seemed to be longer lived in general. I THINK I remember Greyhounds and some of the other sight hounds as being among these longer-lived larger breeds. Of course, they are always talking about averages, and there will always be individuals who live longer or shorter periods.

I'm glad that Havanese, as a group, are one of the longer lived breeds!!!


----------



## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

swaye said:


> We had a rescued GSD pup who was spayed at 6 months and never had a health problem. She died 4 years ago at age 12, which is on the old side for for a GSD. We had several mutts from the animal shelter before the GSD and most recently adopted a retired greyhound racer. All were spayed at 6 months, the greyhound neutered at 4 years. All were healthy except the greyhound. He developed an auto immune disorder during his time with us. A complicated health disorder. We had to have him put down last August at the age of 12. Our mutts outlived the purebreds.


Greyhounds often have major health complications due to all the steroids and chemicals put into their bodies from racing. Greyhounds are in their own category with regard to health, they are almost radioactive. You cant use them as an indicator of health among purebreeds.


----------



## swaye (Mar 28, 2013)

krandall said:


> I can't put my fingers on it right now, but there was actually a study recently released looking at the incidence of various health problems in purebreds vs. mixed breeds. The findings were interesting because while some diseases were more common in purebreds, other were more common in mixed breeds, and a NUMBER of them were about the same whether the dog was purebred or mixed breed, and seemed to have more to do with the size of the dg than the breed. Overall, the health outcome was very similar for both groups.
> 
> As far as average age is concerned, this seemed to have more to do with size than breed (or mix) with the exception of a few breeds, like Cavaliers, who have a serious, known, genetic problem in the whole group even though they are small dogs. There were a couple of exceptions in the other direction too... larger dogs that seemed to be longer lived in general. I THINK I remember Greyhounds and some of the other sight hounds as being among these longer-lived larger breeds. Of course, they are always talking about averages, and there will always be individuals who live longer or shorter periods.
> 
> I'm glad that Havanese, as a group, are one of the longer lived breeds!!!


I had read years ago one of the reasons mutts were healthier than purebreds, was the fact that the genes that caused certain illness in purebreds, was (after awhile) so diluted that it did not exist. In an nteresting sidelight to your comment about greyhounds in regards to their health and early spay/neuter studies: These studies say early spay/neuter can increase the risk of osteosarcoma. Many retired racers, who are spayed/neuter between the ages of 2-5 years develops this cancer. I have a friend who rescues/adopts these greyhounds and many of her dog's have come down with this. There is a special forum on Greytalk devoted to osteosarcoma in greys.


----------



## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

swaye said:


> I had read years ago one of the reasons mutts were healthier than purebreds, was the fact that the genes that caused certain illness in purebreds, was (after awhile) so diluted that it did not exist. In an nteresting sidelight to your comment about greyhounds in regards to their health and early spay/neuter studies: These studies say early spay/neuter can increase the risk of osteosarcoma. Many retired racers, who are spayed/neuter between the ages of 2-5 years develops this cancer. I have a friend who rescues/adopts these greyhounds and many of her dog's have come down with this. There is a special forum on Greytalk devoted to osteosarcoma in greys.


If there is a link between osteosarcoma and early spay/neuter it should be seen across all dogs, not just specifically greyhounds. I dont know for sure but I would think it is tied to all the steroids and chemicals pumped into theirbodies from their racing years.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

atsilvers27 said:


> If there is a link between osteosarcoma and early spay/neuter it should be seen across all dogs, not just specifically greyhounds. I dont know for sure but I would think it is tied to all the steroids and chemicals pumped into theirbodies from their racing years.


I don't know about the early spay/neuter part, but there are a number of breeds that are just RIDDLED with osteosarcoma these days. Golden Retrievers are one breed and Berners are another. I know there are other breeds too, but I'm having trouble remember which right now. And this certainly isn't ONLY an issue of neuter age, because a lot of dogs of these breeds are coming down with it even when they are entire.

Here's an interesting paper on osteosarcoma:

http://rrcus.org/rhodesianridgebackhealth/Documents-PDFs/Osteosarcoma.pdf


----------



## swaye (Mar 28, 2013)

atsilvers27 said:


> If there is a link between osteosarcoma and early spay/neuter it should be seen across all dogs, not just specifically greyhounds. I dont know for sure but I would think it is tied to all the steroids and chemicals pumped into theirbodies from their racing years.


Here is a link to a study:

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

It is dated 2007. There may be a more recent study out there.


----------

