# Commands



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Keep it short and sweet when giving commands, (although I like the word cues ,better). Here is the summary from research in this area. If you really want all of the reseach article check here, it's only 26 pages LOL http://eprints.lincoln.ac.uk/2654/1/Braem_Mills_obedience_author_word_.pdf

The authors found that saying the unknown word before either the known or the new command significantly decreased the dogs' performance. Saying the dog's name prior to the known command ("Down") had no effect on performance, but saying the dog's name prior to the new command ("uff") decreased the dogs' performance, just like saying the unknown word before a command.

So the results of this study substantiate the predictions of learning theory. Saying just the command is better than saying anything else along with it, although saying the dog's name does not seem to have any effect, as long as the dog is very familiar with the command.

Saying "Rover, won't you be a good dog and sit down, pretty please?" just doesn't cut it in training dogs to respond to a command.

--Con Slobodchikoff


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## brugmansia (Dec 6, 2007)

I'll read more of this later on today (since it's after midnight now), but since I've been doing a lot of reading and also listening to my trainers, they had pointed out that I should really concentrate on saying the command instead of saying "Dickson, Come". Dickson actually will come as I say his name. With the clicker training, I'm learning that you are clicking when the dog does the behavior you want, and as time goes on, then you put the word to it. Very interesting. Looking forward to reading the article even more. Thanks for posting it.


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

I wish I could get my husband to understand this! He prefers to carry on a conversation of talk with commands in the talk and you wonder why the dog has no idea what he is talking about! I have told him several times.... " He has no idea what you are talking about!"

I have started re-reading "The Dog's Mind," and it is very interesting reading. I will have to read the subject matter you have suggested and see if I can get some more stuff to settle in my brain to remember! :becky:


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

LOL Linda, and I thought it was the women that did too much talking. :blabla:


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yeah Sylvia, it shouldn't take too long to read. Half of it is skimable.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I thought the author was going to be saying the word commands are important for us but dogs are body oriented but then they kind of skipped over that part. It would be interesting for them to do a study on verbal v. physical commands I guess this is pretty common knowledge for anyone who has done any performance training with a dog. There most people do say "Belle" then "command" as that way your dog's name is the signal to pay attention a command is following. In both agility and obedience, you very quickly learn dogs feed off your body language more than anything else. (Dave not sure if it is you saying you like word cues better or you are quoting someone in your first post).

The only thing with not using their names is on a day to day basis when you have multiple dogs, I find it easier to use their names. They all know their names and when I say "Dasher come," it should mean just Dasher comes. 

I do an agility class with a woman who really doesn't think her dog is a dog and she has long drawn out conversations with her dog the entire time. I think the only positive thing about it is that the dog is used to it, the dog can read her body language, and it calms her down when things dont go right.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

ama0722 said:


> I thought the author was going to be saying the word commands are important for us but dogs are body oriented but then they kind of skipped over that part. It would be interesting for them to do a study on verbal v. physical commands I guess this is pretty common knowledge for anyone who has done any performance training with a dog. There most people do say "Belle" then "command" as that way your dog's name is the signal to pay attention a command is following. In both agility and obedience, you very quickly learn dogs feed off your body language more than anything else. (Dave not sure if it is you saying you like word cues better or you are quoting someone in your first post).
> 
> The only thing with not using their names is on a day to day basis when you have multiple dogs, I find it easier to use their names. They all know their names and when I say "Dasher come," it should mean just Dasher comes.
> 
> I do an agility class with a woman who really doesn't think her dog is a dog and she has long drawn out conversations with her dog the entire time. I think the only positive thing about it is that the dog is used to it, the dog can read her body language, and it calms her down when things dont go right.


Yes Amanda ,you're right ,dogs are more visual than verbal interpreters. This study was strictly on vocal commands. But it would be interesting to see a visual vs. verbal test. The article is saying it's ok to use their name first ,if it's a command they already know. But when teaching a new command ,you are better off not using their name or anything else. But you are right , for years we have been told to always use their name first to get their attention. Quite often people do not teach the common visual commands with their verbal ones. But they are better, and they can come in handy in distance work and possible later when your dog goes deaf. They take the emotion out of commands. That's one of the reasons why clickers are a better signal or reward marker than a verbal one. 
I just prefer the word cue ,rather than command. I got that from our president who sees it this way . "Along the same lines, I no longer use the words "obedience" or "command" in association with training. According to The Oxford Dictionary, "obedience" means "submissive to another's will." The word "command" has its negative connotations as well. Instead I use the words "training" and "cue." Because training should be a fun and positive experience for both the dog and its guardians, I have chosen to remove all words from my training program that imply unpleasant associations or any type of force.
And yes ,with multiple dogs the name first would be important.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Well what you call it isn't that important to the dog!  For those who do performance training, a cue is usually something you signal indirectly but aids your dog in the training- like in obedience (this would be competitive obedience) taking a half step before you stop so the dog knows a sit is coming up or leading with the leg closest to the dog. 

The only problem with using a clicker in this case, you will still be giving a verbal command and your dog will get something out of your voice (whether it be excitment, frustration, nervousness, etc.) But then again i would say your dog will get more out of your body even with non verbal commands.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

ama0722 said:


> Well what you call it isn't that important to the dog!  For those who do performance training, a cue is usually something you signal indirectly but aids your dog in the training- like in obedience (this would be competitive obedience) taking a half step before you stop so the dog knows a sit is coming up or leading with the leg closest to the dog.
> 
> The only problem with using a clicker in this case, you will still be giving a verbal command and your dog will get something out of your voice (whether it be excitment, frustration, nervousness, etc.) But then again i would say your dog will get more out of your body even with non verbal commands.


No it isn't important what we call it. It's just a personal choice of words. A cue is simply a stimulus that elicits a behavior. Cues may be verbal, physical (i.e., a hand signal), or environmental (i.e., a curb may become a cue to sit if the dog is always cued to sit before crossing a road). Physical cues or commands have their place and so do verbal cues or commands. And yes you can't always use a clicker. A clicker is a marker and a predictor of something to come.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ama0722 said:


> I thought the author was going to be saying the word commands are important for us but dogs are body oriented but then they kind of skipped over that part. It would be interesting for them to do a study on verbal v. physical commands I guess this is pretty common knowledge for anyone who has done any performance training with a dog. There most people do say "Belle" then "command" as that way your dog's name is the signal to pay attention a command is following. In both agility and obedience, you very quickly learn dogs feed off your body language more than anything else.


I got a GREAT first hand lesson in that last night. We went to Rally and Formal Obedience run-throughs last night, and as a challenge, the Rally course was set up so that you couldn't talk to your dog through the first 11 stations. It was mostly heeling, but included 360's, 270's, pivots, and a sit-down-sit. I had NO idea how Kodi would do, but figured we'd give it a try, and if it didn't work, I'd start talking to him anyway. (we are encouraged to do whatever our dogs need to have a positive experience at run-throughs) He was FABULOUS! I really don't need all those reminders!<g>

The other funny thing that happened was that toward the end of the course, there was a "sit, turn right, take one step and call to heel". Usually he has no problem with that. Both times through, I completely lost his attention and he started hoovering the floor. I didn't see anything on the floor, but couldn't get his attention at all without actually touching him. I said something to the instructor about not knowing why he was losing his brain twice in the same place... It turns out that a woman before us with a Malamute had dropped a big glob of raw chicken on the floor there earlier. I figure that was above and beyond the call of duty in the distraction department at this point in our career!:wink:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ama0722 said:


> But then again i would say your dog will get more out of your body even with non verbal commands.


I've seen this numerous times with Kodi, when I say the wrong word for what I want him to do. He does the right thing anyway, because he's cueing off my body language, not what comes out of my mouth. Like when I want a left finish, and stupidly say "around" which is our cue for a right finish. As long as I give the hand signal, he follows that, not what I said.

I know I'm at the point that I have to start breaking verbal and hand cues apart before they become too hardwired together, but it's hard to remember. The good thing about what I saw last night is that he doesn't NEED the vocal cue, once he's really learned the exercise.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Karen- Exactly, when I am struggling with something in training with obedience or rally, I tend to work silently. A lot of times I think our words just mess the dog up and when you think of how many words in their and our vocabulary can sounds similar, it is easy to see why. 

As to physical overiding verbal cues, I see it the best in agility as the dog reads off your body so much and at the time you don't realize it. The last trial I was at with Dasher he had an offcourse and I wasn't sure why but I kept going. I ruffled him up at the end of the course and played with him saying what the heck made you want to do that! Then I watch the video and easily saw I gave him the command to go out and take the far jump even though I didn't realize it  It is so easy to watch others do this but a lot harder to admit you did it (makes me appreciate others video taping me mess up my dog even more!)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

As you know, we are just at the very beginning of our agility training, but I am glad that the trainer is already a stickler for shoulder position, looking in the right direction, using the correct hand, etc., even though we are still introducing him to things, so a lot of things are being done slowly.

I figure it's much easier to learn it correctly from the start than to try to unlearn incorrect muscle memory!


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