# Reasons Not to Vaccinate?



## HeatherT

We're looking for a Havanese and found a breeder who has two male puppies that are 20 weeks old. The breeder said they haven't vaccinated the puppies yet because they like to leave the decision on whether or not to vaccinate up to the puppies' owners. 

From what I've read here, this doesn't seem to be a common practice among breeders. Is there a good reason not to vaccinate and should this be a concern that they haven't been vaccinated at this age? 

Thanks!
Heather


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## Laurief

That is very strange!! At least to me!! If they have not been vacinated at 20 weeks, how are their social skills? If not vacinated they should not be around lots of people & other dogs so are they kept in a room all the time?? I would carefully look in to this. My breeder vacinates & deworms at 6 weeks, then we continued with the shots once they came home. 
I wonder if the breeder vacinates her kids as some people dont believe in them either. Interesting


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## Leeann

I have heard of pepole not vacinating, I'm sure a breeder could explain it better, they do some type of test instead, I think it is called titers?? I think it measures the amount of antibodies in the blood.


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## Havtahava

> If they have not been vacinated at 20 weeks, how are their social skills? If not vacinated they should not be around lots of people & other dogs so are they kept in a room all the time??


Vaccinating doesn't have any correlation to how socialized a puppy is. There are many breeders who fall into the natural rearing category, which is possibly the situation for these two boys.

Some breeders are as extreme as only feeding raw foods and not giving any vaccines at all, and some fall more in a category that leans towards minimal vaccines, some breeders give their own vaccines and others yet all vaccines, only feed grocery store kibble and do all the dewormings, etc. And, of course, there are other breeders who fall somewhere between those categories.

By the way, most natural rearing breeders do not keep their puppies off the ground or out of situations for fear of contracting diseases. On the contrary, they usually expose their puppies to everything their other dogs get to do in order to help boost their immunities.

I do not do the natural rearing, but I only do minimal vaccines and I do expose my puppies to a lot of things, including starting visitors as soon as they have their eyes open and can walk around. They are covered by their mother's immunity for now. They have been on grass since they could walk and they have already been traveling other places. Before they were four weeks old, they were already visiting a school for multiple hours.

Heather, I would suggest that you spend a lot of time talking to this breeder and try to understand why they have chosen to rear their dogs in this manner. You will probably learn a lot and it may help you with decisions down the road. Not vaccinating shouldn't be a concern, but talk to the breeder and try to learn more. Another question you should ask is if the breeder has a problem with you getting vaccines if you want to do that. If you are not comfortable with it after you talk to them, then I think you should choose to walk away.


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## Havtahava

By the way, there are a couple of natural rearing breeders that I believe are registered here. Hopefully one of them will step in to respond for themselves.


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## juliav

I've also heard of breeders and owners who do not vaccinate their dogs. We also used to have a holistic/homeopathic vet in our area, but unfortunately, she has moved away. I do the minimum required shots on the dogs. I don't vaccinate for kennel caugh, nor for lepto. I do not vaccinate my cats, not since they were two or three yeas old. I also don't take my cats to the vet, unless they get sick. My cats are indoor/outdoor, as I have a completely enclosed back yard, so they have no street access. The cats don't socialize with other cats, just my dogs. It has worked for them.  They are 10 and almost 11.


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## Havanasilks

As a breeder who does NOT vaccinate and Natural Rears my Havs, I would point out that I support and mentor my puppy owners forever, and would never just leave the vaccination decision "up to them" without trusting they fully understood thr risks and benefits of both sides of the issue. I pre-screen anyone looking at my dogs for their willingness to learn and their ability to understand why I do not vaccinate. 
Here is an excellent article by a well known holistic vet to help you learn more:
Vaccines - Are They Safe for Your Dog? 
Written by: Dee Blanco who is a holistic veterinarian practicing in Santa Fe, New Mexico. She is listed under Altvetmed. 

The questions surrounding the issue of veterinary vaccinations are many. My intent is to open other doors of thought that might help you make your decisions align with your animals well being, your lifestyle, your left and right brain and most importantly - your heart. ... Because I cannot completely separate from this topic, you will clearly hear my bias, my emotions as well as my perspective from my years practicing allopathy and subsequently homeopathy. I will make recommendations based both on this study of many years and on the way I hope to be of help in the world. 
I strongly recommend for you to let this info simmer a bit ... please make sure to do more research. And always listen to your inner voice. You are your own authority, you are your animal's primary health care practitioner, on call, 24 hours a day. You may decide some of this info is useful, and some you will let go by. Please make sure you do not allow fear to run your decisions. 
I have spent a good amount of time in the last 12 of my 19 years as a vet, studying the issue of vaccinations. During this time, in my holistic vet practice, I have been able to see the clinical manifestations and harmful effects of the use and abuse of vaccinations. I have also been able to see improvements of many common maladies in our domestic animals using holistic medicines, in particular homeopathy. It is from this clinical standpoint as well as my own study of the available info on vaccinations that I present my info. I am continually compiling more info in my 'database', so if you would like to add anything you might have, please feel free to send me your info. 

The History of Vaccinations 

The birth of vaccinations came when the English doctor Edward Jenner discovered that the people who worked closely with cows seemed to be less susceptible to smallpox. He injected small amounts of the smallpox crusts into healthy individuals (including his own son) and found these people to also be less susceptible to smallpox. Unfortunately, this process may have fatally weakened his son and his son's friends, because he died at the early age of 21 of tuberculosis. 
Then, during the American Civil War, Louis Pasteur, an accomplished microbiologist, was able to change the vaccines he was using enough that some of the harmful effects were diminished. He was famous for his work in cattle where he was able to prove that vaccines could protect against the deadly disease, anthrax. Thus, he started the new field of medicine called immunology. Pasteur also became famous for his concept of the 'germ theory'. This is still the theory modern medicine uses to explain all illness. Thus we have created a 'war on bugs' that we seem to be losing. It's interesting to note that on his deathbed Pasteur recanted his prior work of blaming the microorganism. His last words were "seed is nothing, soil is everything". In Chinese medicine we say "it's not the agent, but the terrain". Both are saying the same thing - the germ is nothing, but the host's resistance is everything. These concepts lay the foundation for all forms of holistic medicine. 

How Vaccines Work 

The primary intention of the vaccine is to produce a stimulation to the cellular immune system, via the production of antibodies. Antibodies attach onto the virus and render it inactive and harmless. It is through this stimulation and resultant production of antibodies that the body is now prepared for a possible 'attack' by 'foreign invaders' later down the line. These invaders are typically known as bacteria or viruses. This immunity will later provide protection without having to go through the disease itself. It's a bit like the vigilant minute-men always on guard for a possible attack. There are problems with this way of thinking which we will discuss later. 

Why Vaccines Cause Problems 

Typically, the vaccines are injected into the body; subcutaneously (under the skin) or intramuscularly (in the muscle). These vaccines usually have numerous viruses as well as other ingredients in them. Exceptions to this include the rabies, corona, and bordatella vaccines. Herein lies the second and third problem with the vaccination process. 
The process of injecting numerous viruses at one time into the body does not mimic in any way what we would see in the natural world. There would never be such an enormous exposure to that many microorganisms at one time. ... These diseases have never, in the real world, occurred at one time, never. The purpose for which mother nature uses and continues to use acute illness is to thin out the population, whereby the fittest survive. Everything in nature has a rhythm, everything. The rhythm of distemper, of polio, of measles, of influenza, of parvo, of rabies are all on a schedule. This schedule, much to the chagrin of the vet profession, is not determined by the vet profession! 
Neil Miller, a father of two, in his desire to understand the issues around vaccinations for his children, decided to explore the issue extensively. He studied the rise and fall and the death rate of the childhood diseases of polio, measles, and whooping cough in both the US and the UK. He compared the death rates and the point at which vaccinations were introduced. Much to his surprise, in all three of these diseases, he saw that the death rates starting in the early 1900s were markedly decreasing by the time the vaccines were introduced. In the case of polio there was actually a bit of an increase after the vaccines. The increased numbers of deaths after polio vaccines were covered up by reclassifying them as aseptic meningitis. Therefore the deaths didn't show up in the records, but it is quite clear that vaccinations did not really have a beneficial impact on the already declining health rate. The reason the diseases were declining had more to do with the increased natural resistance and better understanding about prevention through hygiene. 
Thirdly, the process of injecting viruses into the body is a very unnatural method of introducing viruses, with the exception of Rabies virus. Most other forms of exposure are through the mucous membranes - the nose, throat/mouth, even the eyes. This creates another huge insult to the immune system. First we gather a whole bunch of viruses and other 'stuff', then we inject them into the body at one time! I have to ask myself if this could be the start of massive confusion and havoc causing the body to attack itself? In other words, could this be why we are seeing so much autoimmune disease? 
Fourth, when these viruses are injected into the body, they find their way into the small capillaries, then into the larger vessels and are filtered by the lymph nodes. This sounds fine except that usually these viruses are first introduced into the mouth and nose, where the humoral immune system is stimulated. It produces the powerful immunoglobulins (IgA, IgG, IgM) which provide the first line of defense. 
When this primary defense mechanism of the humoral immune system is bypassed, you are dependent on the cellular immune system only; this is the branch that produces antibodies. Producing antibodies is a fine thing, but when the natural pathways are bypassed it creates an extra load on the system. Having the natural stimulation of both wings of the immune system is a more balanced approach and isn't what happens with injected vaccines. 
Last, but certainly not least, are the other substances that are in the vaccine vials that are potentially problematic. This discussion follows in my next post.....


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## Havanasilks

What Is In A Vaccine? 

The two forms of vaccines available are the modified-live (MLV) and the killed vaccine. For obvious reasons, the Rabies vaccine is a killed product ... the MLVs are the viruses that were once alive and now have been chemically attenuated (altered) so that they are still recognized by the body but are, theoretically, not able to cause the full blown clinical disease. Typically, the chemical agent used to alter the virus is formalin or formaldehyde, a known carcinogen. Attenuating the virus so that it cannot attach to a cell wall and infect that cell is a good idea, but not all the virus particles may be altered. Some may escape attenuation and are free to cause disease. This may be part of the reason that we see 'breaks' in vaccinated animals. There has also been much speculation that these MLVs have shed into the environment, exposing other animals, including wild animals, to these diseases. 
Additional components of the vaccines are the preservatives that do what preservatives do. These ingredients are also known in current medicine to be carcinogenic agents, including a compound called thymersol, a mercury derivative and aluminum, used to attenuate the viruses. We all know the possible effects of aluminum. 
Even the cells these viruses are grown on can produce allergic reactions in the body. Some of the tissue lines used are from ducks, monkeys, pigs, and the like. These could be creating much of the constant itching, inflamed bowel, and eczematous ears that are so prevalent. 
There are additional ingredients called adjuvants. These are foreig proteins that are added to give a generic, non-specific immune response. These proteins are proprietary (secret) info and are not given out to anyone. It's much like the ingredients on a bottle of BBQ sauce where they list 'herbs and spices' generically. No one really knows what 'herbs and spices' really means. These preservatives and adjuvants are what are believed to be the major cause of the surging incidence of fibrosarcomas in cats. Studies at Colorado State U. by one of my professors, Dr. Dennis Macy, are showing this strong correlation. 
It is felt by the biologics companies that if the body doesn't respond to the numerous viruses that are in each vial of vaccine, than surely the body will respond to other foreign proteins. One rep from a major biologics company, at a meeting on vaccines in 1997 I attended, said quite embarrassed, 'We know how to turn the immune system on, but we don't know how to turn it off". This is the fundamental problem with vaccines: they are generically stimulating to the body, usually creating illness where there once was none. 

How Do You Tell If a Vaccine Is Working?> 

The easiest way to determine if a vaccine is working is to take a blood sample and send it to a lab to determine if there are still circulating antibodies against that virus. This is called an antibody titer. This is a simple test, but there has been some controversy as to what titer level will provide protection from the clinical disease, and what level tells you there has been exposure to the disease. 
The next way is to believe the biologics companies. This is not my ideal choice since I believed them many years ago when I would vaccinate animals and they would break out with the disease. Perfectly healthy animals coming down with the diseases they were being vaccinated against! It was embarrassing and horrifying that I caused these illnesses. The biologics companies told me their vaccines could never have caused the illness. They justified this by saying that the animals must have been incubating the illness and it coincidentally came out at the time of the vaccine. This never made sense to me but as a young, brain-washed vet, I passed this info on to the clients. I still to this day find it interesting that we are a self-serving profession creating the illnesses that return later through our doors to be treated again. What could be more self-serving? I believe this is one of the reasons the vet profession turns its back on the issue of vaccinations. It would mean we would have to take a good hard look at what we are doing. It would mean we would have to take responsibility. Enough of my soap box, for now. 
One way to determine how long a vaccine is capable of lasting in the body is by duration of immunity studies. These are studies that the biologics companies conduct to determine whether vaccinated animals can withstand a challenge from a live virus contact. The problem here is that there are inadequate duration of immunity studies at this time. These are difficult and expensive test and there has not been enough pressure on these companies to do these tests. One of the reasons is because the profession has assumed that vaccines are harmless and giving repeated doses or annual vaccinations is 'good medicine'. 
Because of inadequate studies, the biologics companies are not willing at this point in time to change the recommended protocols. Much info available from numerous sources verifies that the MLVs, if given after 14 wks of age (after maternal antibodies have decreased), are effective for a lifetime. Most rabies titers at this time are showing effective protection at 5 to 6 years after vaccination. I believe the rabies duration of immunity studies would help us change the ludicrous yearly vaccination requirements in many states. Many animals I test are showing protection to parvo and distemper after 10 years or more. The real question here is: how did these recommendations for yearly vaccinations start? 

Why Are We Vaccinating Yearly? 

This is a really good question, isn't it? The first massive vaccination program began in the 1940s and the 50s for distemper and adenovirus. These early vaccines showed that one third of the puppies did not maintain protective titers to distempter for one year after the initial vaccination. By the way, we have yet to talk about susceptibility, which these researchers did not take into account. This led to the recommendation in 1959 that dogs should be vaccinated annually, as a safety measure. Distemper was a horrible, life threatening disease and was capable of going through a population of puppies very quickly. Usually it caused gastrointestinal symptoms such as bloody diarrhea (much like Parvo), or respiratory symptoms, and in the most severe state would cause neurological symptoms which were rarely successfully treated. 
In 1961, recommendations that a serum analysis of the blood was the best way to determine immunological protection. Since clients would need to pay for that, plus an exam, and possibly the re-vaccination fee, it would be easier and cheaper, based on the local incidence of distempter, the history of the animal, and the potential risk, that annual vaccinations be given. Thus start the annual standard of practice. There was no science here! Unfortunately, there were few people willing to push for the serum analysis, or to really look at the exposure of each animal, or to look at any other factors influencing susceptibility. 
Dr. Ron Schultz and the U. of Wisconsin-Madison, a veterinary immunologist, questions the lack of scientific evidence to support our current practices. In his article in the 1992 edition of Current Veterinary Therapy, Dr Schultz and his co-author, Dr. Phillips, discuss the issue. Their words follow: "A practice that was started many years ago and that lacks scientific validity or verification is annual vaccinations. Almost without exception there is no immunologic requirement for annual revaccination. Immunity to viruses persists for years or for the life of the animal. Successful vaccination to most bacterial pathogens produces an immunologic memory that remains for years, allowing an animal to develop a protective anamnestic (secondary) response when exposed to virulent organisms. Only the immune response to toxins requires boosters (e.g. tetanus toxin booster, in humans, is recommended once every 7-10 years) and no toxin vaccines are currently used for dogs and cats. Furthermore, revaccination with most viral vaccines fails to stimulate an anamnestic response as a result of interference by existing antibodies (similar to maternal antibody interference). The practice of annual vaccination in our opinion should be considered of questionable efficacy unless it is used as a mechanism to provide an annual physical exam or is required by law (i.e. certain states require annual revaccination for rabies)." 
Whew! The summary of his statement is this: yearly boosters are unnecessary and the current antibody protection in the body will actually interfere with other new vaccines. Therefore, they are not useful and certainly don't provide more protection if given annually. This report also emphasizes that yearly reminders get people into the clinic to give yearly vaccines and put little to no emphasis on a wellness exam. This is a backward approach, isn't it? Shouldn't we remind our clients to come in for a yearly wellness check and if necessary then suggest the vaccinations? Have we become so complacent and dependent on these little vaccine vials and their financial power? Are there not other methods of preventative medicine? If you choose these yearly vaccines will your animals be protected against all the harmful diseases known to animals?


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## Havanasilks

Who Is Susceptible? And To What? 

There is a questions as to who is susceptible and to what diseases, which really distills down to: at what age are the animals most and least susceptible, and what diseases are species specific or regionally specific? 
It is odd to me that the topic of age susceptibility is rarely if ever spoken about and yet it seems to be such an important consideration in the decision about the need for vaccinations. 
We are not talking about breed susceptibility, we are talking about the ages at which certain illnesses are more likely to manifest. For example, measles and chicken pox are a childhood disease that if allowed to be expressed while young are relatively benign. As the child grows older, the susceptibility to these illnesses decreases. This is the same with many of the animal vaccines. As a clinician it is very, very uncommon to see distemper, parvo, parainfluenza, adenovirus, panleukopenia, calicivirus, herpesvirus, and others in adult animals. These seem to be most dangerous when the animal is young and their immune system is not fully developed. When I see an adult with parvo or distemper, it is frequently a purebred or has other immune dysfunction or is likely poorly cared for. I do see a predominance of parvo and distemper in young animals less than 6-8 months old, and less frequently as they get closer to 1 year old. 
My question is this: why are we vaccinating animals that have passed the point of great susceptibility? Would it not be similar to humans being vaccinated every year of our lives with chicken pox, measles, diphtheria, whooping cough, hepatitis, tetanus, etc.? 
The other question concerns the vaccination of diseases that are not seen at all in a particular region, or that vaccines are not effective against because the viruses have many different serovariants. For example, leptospirosis. This is a vaccine that does not provide long-lasting protection and will not provide cross-protection for all the different strains of lepto. Then why are we using this? Coronavirus is another vaccine enigma. Corona in dogs produces a mild, transient diarrhea and it is known that the vaccine does not provide protection against an infection with corona. Hardly worth the vaccine, isn't it? 
Lepto is not seen in my area, so why are we vaccinating? I have seen this practice with Lyme, Corona, Feline Leukemia, Feline Infectious Peritonitis, and many equine vaccines. This seems to be an issue of convenience since the manufacturers supply all over the country/world. It also seems to fall into the category that the practice of injecting viruses into a healthy body, or an unhealthy one for that matter, is a benign process. 

What Are the Adverse Reactions, If Any? 

Unfortunately, adverse reactions to vaccines have been considered to be the immediate hypersensitivity reactions of anaphylaxis. This severely limits the types of reactions that are ever even considered to be related to vaccines. Other problems surface which make accurate tallying of adverse reactions difficult. At present time there are no easy or effective reporting systems; many vets are reluctant to report even those where an animal dies, and the cause-effect relationship is not always clear. Even to those who believe that many of the illnesses we see, both acute and chronic, are directly related to over-vaccination, it is still at times difficult to show how this works. There are many situations where the perfectly healthy puppy is taken at 6 weeks for his first vaccines. Maybe he has a slight fever or lack of appetite and energy for a day or so. Then he is returned 2 to 3 weeks later for more vaccines. Maybe he will show another fever or maybe a day of diarrhea. Then he is returned in 2 or 3 weeks for more vaccines. Maybe he starts to itch a bit. Often by the time the pup is 6 months old he has several problems going on. He often has loose stools and he itches, but there are no fleas. Thus begins the first stages of chronic illness brought on by the vaccines. 
When a perfectly healthy individual is given viruses that cause illness, the animal is going to manifest illness-related symptoms. This healthy individual is asked to maintain a low-level stimulation of a state of distemper, a low level state of parvo, a low level state of rabies, and so on. As long as you are in a low level state of illness you are not in a high level state of health. Therefore, the vaccines provide protection by keeping the body in a diseased state of health. Often the animal will not manifest the illness it is vaccinated for, at least not in its acute form, but it will manifest in other conditions. Usually these conditions are inherited weaknesses. 
Chronic symptoms look very much like the acute illnesses but they are often not life-threatening unless allowed to continue for years and years. 

For distemper we often see: 

a.. Watery fluid dripping from the nose 
a.. Conjunctivitis, eye discharge, entropion 
a.. Chronic gastritis, hepatitis, pancreatitis, appetite disorders 
a.. Recurrent diarrhea 
a.. Sensitivity to food with resultant diarrhea 
a.. Epilepsy, rear leg paralysis, spondylitis 
a.. Lip fold dermatitis 
a.. Excessive licking of feet, eruptions between the toes, allergies 
a.. Kennel cough, chronic bronchitis 
a.. Chronic skin eruptions, especially lower half of body 
a.. Failure to thrive, abnormally thin 
For rabies we often see: 

a.. Restless nature, suspicion of others, aggression to animals and people 
a.. Changes in behavior: aloofness, unaffectionate, desire to roam, OR clingy, separation anxiety, 'velcro dog' 
a.. Restraining can lead to violent behavior and self-injury 
a.. Self-mutilation, tail chewing 
a.. Voice changes, hoarseness, excessive barking 
a.. Chronic poor appetite, very finicky 
a.. Paralysis of throat or tongue, sloppy eaters, drooling 
a.. Dry eye, loss of sight, cataract 
a.. Eating wood, stones, earth, stool 
a.. Destructive behavior, shredding bedding 
a.. Seizures, epilepsy, twitching 
a.. Increased sexual desire, sexual aggression 
a.. Irregular pulse, heart failure 
a.. Reverse sneezing 
Some of the illnesses you are familiar with include any auto-immune disease such as lupus, red cell aplasia, auto-immune hemolytic anemia cardiomyopathies; neoplasias such as fibrosarcomas, mast cell tumors, thyroid tumors, etc.; inflammatory bowel disease, eczematous ears, any dermatological condition, warts, lipomas, poor hair coats, stomatitis, periodontal disease, thyroid disease, and the list goes on and on. 
Now you could be wondering why I am so bold to 'blame' all these and more on vaccines. The reason is simple: I have an empirical, call it experimental lab where I visit daily and watch the animals, year after year. In the short years of my career I have seen the incredible increase in all these illnesses, some we never even learned in vet school. In fact, my vet school is now primarily an oncology treatment center! This was not the case a short 20 years ago. I have also spoken with many vets who have practiced longer than I and their response is the same. They did not see the level of chronic illness, nor the resistant and concretized type of illnesses that we see today. 
Because I am able to use homeopathic remedies to help resolve these effects of the vaccines I am able to see first hand the cause-effect relationship. I have also looked at the info of those who have come before me to help in this process. One such person was J. Compton Burnett, a British physician of the late 1800s and early 1900s. Burnett was a proponent of the smallpox vaccine until he started noticing that the vaccines given to young people in the prime of their lives were causing many 'other' health problems. He coined the term 'vaccinosis' to describe the illnesses caused by vaccines, separate from the illnesses they were protecting against. Much of what Burnett saw closely resembles what we see today in our animals. This is interesting how this human model is actually teaching us about what happens with animals. 
Burnett further verified his hypothesis by giving the homeopathic remedy, Thuja, to many of these vaccinated individuals, as was described by Hahnneman. He was able to reverse many of these harmful effects. This is still a widely used remedy for the effects of vaccines.


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## Havanasilks

Alternatives 

Remember, the body has incredible capacity to provide protection against all sorts of invaders. So, if our approach to protection is from the standpoint of supporting the body in doing its job, which it already knows how to do, we are working at a more fundamental level. If we support the energy and physical systems of the body we will support the immune system, not overload it. Clean hygiene, good nutrition, clean water, plenty of exercise, constitutional treatments (preferably homeopathic), good breeding practices, and homeopathic nosodes, where needed. This all sounds very simplistic and, in fact, it is! 
Should you decide to use nosodes they must be used under the guidance of a qualified vet, just as with any medication. Nosodes are homeopathic remedies made from the diseased products of whatever disease you are wanting to protect against. For distemper, nasal discharge is used. For parvo, fecal material is used. These are subsequently filtered, and sterilized, diluted and succussed as any homeopathic remedy and are administered orally. I use them starting at 7-9 weeks and continue for the first year of life only. They cannot be used for rabies licensing. 
Nosodes provide protection by stimulating a non-specific immunological response. They fill the susceptibility the animal has to the disease without actually producing antibodies. If that susceptibility is filled, much like a cup of coffee to the brim, then nothing else can come in and fill it up. You can't be over-susceptible. In my practice nosodes are very effective with the exception of animals with chronic illness and poor breeding practices. The primary nosodes I use are for the life threatening diseases such as parvo, distemper, and panleukopenia. I will also use bordatella for animals in kennel situations.
If You Do Vaccinate 

If you choose to vaccinate, please be careful. My recommendations are as follows: wait until 14 weeks for puppies and kittens, until the maternal antibodies are no longer present. If you must use something before 14 weeks, use nosodes; after 14 weeks, give one MLV parvo/distemper combination for dogs; for cats, give one panleukopenia, and one rabies vaccine at least two weeks after the above. 
OR: 
One distemper at 12 weeks, followed by one parvo at 14 weeks (these are the single vaccines and are the best, but often difficult to find). All other vaccines, except rabies, I cannot recommend, period. 

Other Issues 

We have yet to discuss the topic of rights, animal rights, and guardian rights. This is one you can play with on your own. 
Additionally, we have yet to talk about the laws that mandate rabies requirements that don't reflect the current science. I hope to see these laws changed as there is more info form the duration of immunity studies. It will be up to the grassroots movement to initiate this as most vet associations will not support a law that will hurt the pocketbooks of the vets. 
So, you can see there is quite a bit of info to assimilate, and there is more!


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## Havtahava

Robin (Havanasilks), obviously since you don't vaccinate, your puppies are going to fall into the category of the OP (Original Poster). What do you do to socialize your puppies?

I should probably post a disclaimer that I have an adorable Havanasilk Havanese in my home, Martha, and am only asking for the benefit of others. I have talked to Robin (Havanasilks) in depth over this topic numerous times. 








Martha as a puppy









Martha as an adult


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## Havanasilks

*Social Skills*

From the moment the puppies come into this world, they are getting social stimulation. The first thing we do is : http://www.breedingbetterdogs.com/achiever.html
This helps to give puppies an incredible head start in their ability to process new experiences.
The current litter I have now is 7 weeks old. They had their first car ride at 5 days (eyes still closed) and spent some time away from home.
At three weeks (eyes open) they traveled to a dog event where we stayed for three days and while they were not out on the grass, they interacted with the other dogs who had been.
At 5 weeks they travelled by car and visited another home, met several new people, experienced new textures (grass, cement, dirt, etc.) and this continues every chance we get. 
Some of the benefits to all this traveling is, they grow into pups who do not get carsick. They are accepting and comfortable in new situations and around new people. They learn to pay attention even with many distractions.
They get exposed to things that help them develop natural immunity. They wean on their own time from Mom and it goes smoothly. They are more adept at becoming reliably housebroken. 
At 7 weeks they are practicing wearing a leash and a collar.
They are generally ready for a new home at around 9 weeks, sometimes 10. 
Robin


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## Havanasilks

Hi Martha!!!!!
(If I could figure the picture posting for this forum, I'd post a picture of Martha's little sister)


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## dboudreau

Robin: Thank you very much for all this information. I'm going to have to read it a couple of times to totally understand but after my first reading it sure makes sense. Vaccinating my dogs, cats and kids has always been questionable practice to me. 

I wish all puppies were as well socialized as yours. Thanks again for responding to this thread. Very educational.


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## Havtahava

Thank you for the responses, Robin. This is off-topic a bit, but we also did the Super Dog training with this litter in addition to socializing by the Rules of Seven and have started clicker training. I'm really enjoying these boys.


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## BeverlyA

Thank you Robin for that information, it's a lot to think about and consider.
I wanted to add that I love your action shot on your avatar! Beautiful!

Beverly


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## irnfit

My 2 have been vaccinated for everything except Lepto, mainly because I have been putting up a fight against it. However, my vet has been pushing a little. There haven't been outbreaks in my area, but it is there. All vets are now giving Bortadella (? spelling) due to the fact that there are new strains and they are becoming more harmful to dogs. The kennel cough tends to turn into a serious pneumomnia, and the dogs are becoming seriously ill, or die. So who do we believe? 

Is there somewhere we can lookup the actual statistics for our area on these health problems?


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## Cheryl

There are people who do not believe in vaccinating their children, and although I understand that it is their right to make that decision, I would never make it. I firmly believe that diseases that we can prevent, we should prevent. I am new to this dog world, but I have seen children suffer needlessly because they are not vaccinated. By the way, I have been a school nurse for 17 years.


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## JodiM

Wow Martha~ Thank you for all that information!

I don't vax my kids, and have questioned giving vax's to my dogs... I'm going to go back and read over your posts when I have a bit more time.

Jewels had a puppy shot yesterday, and had a negative reaction to it.  

Are there any other resources you can recommend with information about not vaccinating animals?

We've always been leary to not vaccinate, because parvo is rampant here.


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## HeatherT

Robin thanks for your thorough information! I will definitely do more research. So far, I've been able to locate a holistic veterinarian within a reasonable distance from my home. We'll certainly look into going this route. It makes a lot of sense!

Thanks for all of your responses! It's great to have such a wonderful resource to turn to for information from people who are so passionate about their dogs!

Heather


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## good buddy

Robin,

Thank you for sharing this with us. I've never been too excited about all these vaccines and recently started reading more about it. It's a lot to digest but very interesting!

Debbie, I had to read through parts twice and really focus too.


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## ama0722

My maltese had a very bad experience with a vaccine (had to go to doggy hospital) and so it has been 2 years since she has received any vaccination. I started to do some research and it was amazing at a lot of things you can uncover. I also decided Dora wasn't going to get some of the shots vets say your dog needs to have. There is a vet here in Columbus that feels so strongly about over vaccination that if you have a titer test done and it shows your dog doesn't have enough of the vaccine, he will give it for free. Belle is at a training center with at least 50 other dogs 3 nights a week and has never had kennel cough.

I recommend that each person put in a lot of reseach to decide what is right for you and your pet!

Amanda


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## juliav

Robin,

Thanks so much for all the detailed information. That's a lot of information that I will have to go back to in order to obsorb it all.  

I have a different question, what are your thoughts on heartwarm testing and the once a month tablets that are given to the dogs. I haven't had my dogs tested nor do I give them the meds (yet), but my vet is pushing and so far I am resisting.

TIA,
Julia


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## marjrc

Hi Robin, 

Thanks for all that info. I've got it printed out and will read at leisure. Lots to think about! 

Heather, good idea to question. I would love to hear what your breeder has to say about anything you bring up.


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## MaddiesMom

I live in the same neighborhood as a vet. She is well respected, and keeps up to date on things. I asked her about vaccinations. She said she vaccinates her client's dogs only until after the first annual vaccinations (no lepto, though), and then usually never vaccinates again. Her own 2 dogs haven't been vaccinated in over 7 years. She checked their titers after about 5 years, and they were still very high. I would look into getting titers done instead of vaccination if your vet insists.


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## talemaker_havanese

Then you have pups that die from parvo from being exposed to a dog shedding or an area where they shed. 

Any breeder that doesn't protect a dog with minimal vaccinations as we do (no lepto) should be willing to backup their feelings with a full refund guarantee if the new owners lose a dog to something they could be vaccinated for. Titers only tell you the protection at a given time. It does not offer protection and there is a window when mother's immunity is no longer passed on. 

A loss of one dog to parvo is too many for me. But I respect the rights of people to decide on their own.


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## EMarie

I start vaccinating at 8-9 weeks go through the puppie shots they get about 3 of them (no lepto, no lymes) then rabies by itself at 14 weeks (ish) and then they get a yearly booster in one year and then no more. I was a vet tech for 12 years and I always had issues with the yearly vaccinating thing. I really have a problem with vaccinating with everything at the same time. Your dog should not get more than one shot at a time, it is very stressful on their immune system. (children too, I cringe when I hear the dr giving them 4-6 vaccines at the same time) Mine also get a rabies every 3 yrs after that (it is the law)


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## EMarie

Robin, Thanks for posting that. I have printed and I am going to give it to my friend who is also a vet tech who agrees with me. She will find it very interesting!!! Thanks so much. Is there a website where you got it from?
Erin


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## karlabythec

I know a lot of breeders on my german shepherd board that don't vaccinate at all, feed raw, and are very natural. 

When I bred german shepherd puppies (for 2 years), I gave minimal vaccines. I gave a puppy shot of distemper/parvo at 8 weeks, and then again 11.5 weeks. That was it. 

I also don't vaccinate my kids...a result of my 9 year old becoming learning disabled from all of the mercury they used to put in vaccines, and my 6 month old (at the time) having an adverse reaction to a vaccine. At that point I stopped vaccinating them and really started doing my research. 

I think that is the answer...do your research...find out what is running rampant in your area and make the decision. If it isn't a life threatening disease that's running rampant, do you really need to vaccinate? 

You are very lucky these pups haven't had anything for 20 weeks! Even if you decide to vaccinate, they will be healthier for it. My poor little Gracie has been way over vaccinated...she won't be getting another vaccine for a very long time (if ever).


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## EMarie

O yeah...another website that does not have much to do with vaccines but other health issues is www.dogtorj.com, anyone who believes in natural medicine will love it. I found it when my older girl started having seizures and it was the gluten and wheat in her food. Changed food and they all stopped!! Thought I would share it.


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## HavaBaloo

*Links Re: Vaccines*

Thought I would share some links provided to me by my breeder, who breeds all natural, no vaccines. There is some very interesting information in some of these articles. 
--------------------------------
This an extremely thought provoking video that Margo Roman DVM has put together in which she interviews many veterinarians including Dr. Pitcairn.

Scroll down the page and choose "video preview":

http://drdomore.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=36

This is a list of vaccine links that will help add to your knowledge of the protocols:

Here is an excellent link about Parvo:

http://k9joy.com/dogarticles/parvo.php

Article from the UK Vet Record proving immunity to Parvo for 15 years post vaccine:

http://veterinaryrecord.bvapublications.com/cgi/content/abstract/154/15/457

A Class Action Lawsuit for irresponsible vaccinating of pets:

http://www.dogsadversereactions.com/classaction.html

Another:

http://www.critterchat.net/vaccs.htm

From a well known Vet:

http://www.drpitcairn.com/talks/looking_at_vaccines.html

Betty Lewis' page....very good with lots of additional links at the end:

http://home.earthlink.net/~pawsreflect/vaccinosis.html

This is a "people" article, but the basis is the same:

http://www.whale.to/v/phillips.html

Where to report an adverse reaction to a dog vaccine. Good anecdotes about horrible
reactions:

http://www.dogsadversereactions.com/

And this is one of the BEST ones.

http://www.whale.to/vaccine/driscoll1.html


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