# 3 Litters Playing Together



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Tonight, the three litters had a larger play area to play together. Last night, they had about a 6x8 pen, with only one pee on the floor, so tonight it was enlarged to 6x10. 

The litters are 5-1/2, 6, and 6-1/2 weeks old. Tonight, there were no accidents on the floor, with no outside help. They did it all on their own, and played until most of them were completely worn out.

They're not quite old enough to go over the slide yet, but are getting curious about it.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Oh how much fun!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Adorable!!!


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## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

What good puppies. Just Adorable!


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## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

Too cute!


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## RIstream (Aug 21, 2008)

Too much cuteness in one room!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

One of the Forum members, who is getting one of these, came by yesterday, and Pam said she spent a long time in that pen playing with all the puppies. I expect we'll be hearing from her sometime, but I think they're going to be on the road for a while.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

It sure must be fun having all those little bundles of fur!


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

Looks like a fun time for all of the puppies. They are all adorable and I think that Rosy’s puppies are especially beautiful. I am loving the colors.


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

Tom King said:


> One of the Forum members, who is getting one of these, came by yesterday, and Pam said she spent a long time in that pen playing with all the puppies. I expect we'll be hearing from her sometime, but I think they're going to be on the road for a while.


Oh, I get my forum fix every morning, then go over and see the pictures of the puppies on your site. Starts my day right! It was such a pleasure to spend time with the puppies. They are so adorable, even cuter than their pictures, which is unbelievable cause they're so cute in the pictures already! Each and every one of them has taken a piece of my heart so I am actually glad that the final decision is not mine, but Pam's. haha!

I woke up in the middle of the night thinking of all the puppies and trying to decide about gender. While my husband drove yesterday I was googling all these things about gender, agility, relationship with cats, which I've done before, but wanted to reconsider since I have been second-guessing myself considering my preference for a male. That one female that marked me (hee hee) really tugged at my heart. I loved it when she scolded Freedom and then went off with her little pint-sized huff. I could easily translate what she was telling him, too. It was soooo cute! Her attitude made me laugh, and made me realize that maybe the female's attitude I've been reading about is not so bad. I highly respect a bit of independence!

I read one article that said to remember that, even if you want a dog to do agility and other companion sports with, one is more than likely to do sports just for a couple of years, but will have the dog many many more years than that, so to get the dog that has the qualities one likes, not just as it pertains to agility. Sounded like good advice to me. My primary preferences are to have one that would be tender and caring of my mom and my husband, that would enjoy doing activities with me, and will get along with my cat. Doing companion sports is a bonus. Male / female? Male/female? Gosh, I don't know. I am open to everything and trust that Pam will take everything into consideration and send me home with the right puppy for our family.

I am so grateful for Pam's hospitality, and for answering all my questions! Also, I went back to the RV and ordered my Wondercide, both for the puppy and for me.  I can't wait to see you guys in less than a month and take my puppy home.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jeanniek said:


> Oh, I get my forum fix every morning, then go over and see the pictures of the puppies on your site. Starts my day right! It was such a pleasure to spend time with the puppies. They are so adorable, even cuter than their pictures, which is unbelievable cause they're so cute in the pictures already! Each and every one of them has taken a piece of my heart so I am actually glad that the final decision is not mine, but Pam's. haha!
> 
> I woke up in the middle of the night thinking of all the puppies and trying to decide about gender. While my husband drove yesterday I was googling all these things about gender, agility, relationship with cats, which I've done before, but wanted to reconsider since I have been second-guessing myself considering my preference for a male. That one female that marked me (hee hee) really tugged at my heart. I loved it when she scolded Freedom and then went off with her little pint-sized huff. I could easily translate what she was telling him, too. It was soooo cute! Her attitude made me laugh, and made me realize that maybe the female's attitude I've been reading about is not so bad. I highly respect a bit of independence!
> 
> ...


I have both girls and boys and one of each from Pam and Tom. Yes, my boy is a bit different from the girls, but it is not a MAJOR difference. He is more of a "peace lover". If there are any disagreements among my three, it is ALWAYS between the two girls... started pretty evenly between them. (though, interestingly, Pixel is MORE likely to "start things" when Panda is in heat!!!) But this is something no one would ever notice with a single dog, or even with one of each sex.

I don't quite agree with what you read about sports being only a couple of years. It takes a good solid 2-3 years to even PRODUCE a solid competitor. Before that, we might do a little competing, but when things go wrong, we say, "Well, he's only a puppy, so it's to be expected!"  Kodi is 9, and started his competitive life VERY early, at 15 months. (too early... he was my first competition dog and I started him too early. I have had to work through some issues as a result, and would never do it the same way again) At 9, he is still at his peak in terms of performance. Barring unexpected problems, I would expect him to continue for another 3-4 years. Remember, this is a long-lived breed, and they tend to "stay young" until their last couple of years. Kodi still enjoys the occasional RLH, and I remember Twinkle, his grandma, still running after the balls Tom threw at 15 and older. When Kodi does retire from ring sports, I plan to explore nosework with him, as that doesn't put any physical demands on an aging body.

As far as picking the "right" pup (or Pam doing it for/with you!) All I can tell you is that the two who have just waltzed into my heart have been the most successful competitively. The one that I tried to decide on very clinically is a lovely dog, but SHE has become my husband's dog... TOTALLY attached to him at the hip!  (which is not a bad thing at all, but not what I had planned in my head!) Don't get me wrong... I love her too, and I am "second best" in her eyes. But I am definitely not "number 1" with her. 

When I went to get Kodi, Pam had kind of decided on a different puppy for me. I even brought a trainer with me to help me make sure I was getting the "right" puppy for me. I sat on Pam and Tom's living room floor, and EVERY time I looked down, there was Kodi, in my lap, looking up at me. My heart melted. If Pam and my trainer friend had continued to insist that he was the "wrong dog" for me and that I should take the other one, I would have. There was nothing "wrong" with him... we just didn't have that instant connection. Fortunately for Kodi and me, Pam saw that connection and sent Kodi home with me. (with my trainer's blessing)  The rest is history. The other puppy was drivier, but the strong bond between Kodi and me makes up for that. He is also not in love with agility competition (though he does have agility titles) but has opened up the world of obedience and rally to me. He has excelled there. Just like with horses, I believe in playing to the dog's strengths rather than forcing them into a sport they aren't meant for.

With Panda, my experience was similar. I went there to temperament test the litter of 9. I was NOT looking for a puppy. But Panda waltzed into the room on her hind legs, and I fell in love. I LEFT that day not intending to get ANY puppy. Two days later, the breeder called me and offered her to me. I couldn't say no. 

So I say, let Pam's experience and knowledge in matching puppies and people, and YOUR heart be the guiding factors in determining which puppy becomes yours! Don't worry about gender (and most CERTAINLY don't worry about color)... I've fallen in love with both and lived with both. In this breed, the differences between boys and girls are subtle, particularly in a pet home.

And you are right. I look at people who want Border Collies as performance dogs. They certainly CAN be top performance dogs. BUT... you have to live with them the rest of the time when you AREN'T training or competing. I love my mild, well-behaved, Havanese with "off switches", who are happy to sleep by my feet while I work on the computer!  They are still ALL more than willing to come train with me when I can take a break!


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

krandall said:


> I don't quite agree with what you read about sports being only a couple of years. It takes a good solid 2-3 years to even PRODUCE a solid competitor. Before that, we might do a little competing, but when things go wrong, we say, "Well, he's only a puppy, so it's to be expected!"  Kodi is 9, and started his competitive life VERY early, at 15 months. (too early... he was my first competition dog and I started him too early. I have had to work through some issues as a result, and would never do it the same way again) At 9, he is still at his peak in terms of performance. Barring unexpected problems, I would expect him to continue for another 3-4 years. Remember, this is a long-lived breed, and they tend to "stay young" until their last couple of years. !


Thank you! Karen. I was hoping someone would give me feedback on that statement. I had been surprised to read it would only be for a couple of years! Did you know you wanted to do companion sports with your dog before you got Kodi and that you wanted one that would do really well? I know I would like to do sports, but that isnt the top requirement for my getting a puppy. That is how I took the other part of that statement - that unless doing competition sports is your sole drive in getting a puppy, remember to factor in the other components that are important to you in getting the puppy. I dont want agility to be the top priority, where the other needs are overlooked.

I agree with what you are saying about selecting a puppy. But the problem I have about that thought is that I only know the puppies from the time I have spent with them. That is such a limited view on my part of How they are. I would love a cam on them everytime they play so I can see them with their different moods. At this time, I only have snapshots. This litter seems more mellow, the other one very hyper. But then, the hyper one could have been hearing me with the mellow litter and were getting hyped up to meet the new voice. This puppy seems very not interested in me, but interested in everything else around the play area. This othe puppy wanted to play with me AND everything else around her. How do I know that the next day, if I could have come back, would not be a different scenario? That is why I think that Pam would be in a better place after doing the temperament test to choose, but, ultimately, you are right, my heart does have to agree.

I think it would be great to be there when she goes through the temperament checklist! Then I'd understand better what the puppy is like.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Any temperament testing won't tell Pam anything she doesn't already know, by then.

There are still a couple of weeks left before decisions are finalized. You wouldn't believe the effort that Pam puts into this. With this many puppies at one time, it makes it a lot more complicated, but I will guarantee that all will go to the best fitting home.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jeanniek said:


> Thank you! Karen. I was hoping someone would give me feedback on that statement. I had been surprised to read it would only be for a couple of years! Did you know you wanted to do companion sports with your dog before you got Kodi and that you wanted one that would do really well? I know I would like to do sports, but that isnt the top requirement for my getting a puppy. That is how I took the other part of that statement - that unless doing competition sports is your sole drive in getting a puppy, remember to factor in the other components that are important to you in getting the puppy. I dont want agility to be the top priority, where the other needs are overlooked.
> 
> I agree with what you are saying about selecting a puppy. But the problem I have about that thought is that I only know the puppies from the time I have spent with them. That is such a limited view on my part of How they are. I would love a cam on them everytime they play so I can see them with their different moods. At this time, I only have snapshots. This litter seems more mellow, the other one very hyper. But then, the hyper one could have been hearing me with the mellow litter and were getting hyped up to meet the new voice. This puppy seems very not interested in me, but interested in everything else around the play area. This othe puppy wanted to play with me AND everything else around her. How do I know that the next day, if I could have come back, would not be a different scenario? That is why I think that Pam would be in a better place after doing the temperament test to choose, but, ultimately, you are right, my heart does have to agree.
> 
> I think it would be great to be there when she goes through the temperament checklist! Then I'd understand better what the puppy is like.


I am NOT suggesting that you should/would over-ride Pam. Far from it! She lives with the puppies day in and day out. She knows what they are like better than anyone else. I am only saying that if there are two puppies in the running, (there were when I got Kodi) sometimes one will really speak to you. That's what happened with Kodi, and Pam saw it too. I suspect, that if Kodi had already been promised to someone else, I would have happily taken the other puppy home, and we would have gotten along fine. But Kodi and I were meant to be. 

Yes, I DID know that I was specifically looking for a dog for sports. That was very important to me. I came from years of showing horses, and for physical reasons needed to "downsize". I had promised my trainer friend when she agreed to come with me, that if the puppy wasn't "right" for me, I would walk away. That would have been very hard to do. (and I DON'T think it would happen with Pam and Tom. If the puppy weren't right, they would tell you so ahead of time) But when I got Kodi from them, I didn't know them at all, and not all breeders are as responsible. But I WOULD have walked away without a puppy, if there hadn't been a puppy there who was a good fit for me, or if I hadn't liked the way they were being raised. I now think Pam and Tom are a role models for HOW puppies should be raised! But again, I didn't know that ahead of time. In your case, KNOWING this particular breeder, I know you don't have to worry about getting the "wrong" puppy.

Unless a person is the kind of high-powered, old-fashioned trainer who keeps the dog crated every moment they aren't working, (and those people all run Border Collies or Golden Retrievers  ) ALL of us spend more time just "living" with our dogs than we do training. So I don't know ANYONE who doesn't value a dog who is a good pet first, even if they ALSO want a good competitive dog. I think the Havanese who is NOT a good pet is really the odd-ball. MOST well bred Havanese are biddable companion animals. That's how they are bred, and what the standard calls for. The ones who will do best in sports are also physically well balanced, well conformed, out-going, people-focused and resilient. If you want to run agility, you also want one under 11" if possible, or they have to run in the 12" class against the Shelties. Just as when choosing a conformation show dog, no dog is perfect, and you don't know EXACTLY how they will mature. Kodi has that whole list EXCEPT that he is 11 1/2". So he had to run agility as the smallest dog in his class most of the time. But we still managed!  Kodi's size was kind of a fluke. His parents weren't that big, and most of the King's dogs are quite moderate in size. So I don't think you need to worry about THAT! (and Pam did warn me when I got him that he was going to be big... It didn't matter. I was in love!  )

You are right that when you can only see the puppies once or twice, you are just seeing a "snap shot". The puppy may be really cranked up for some reason, or conversely, in need of a nap. That's when you need to talk with the breeder. They will know whether that is typical for that puppy, or just a moment in time. And being there for temperament testing isn't a sure-bet answer either. I think temperament testing is valuable. IF done well and interpreted carefully. It can tell you areas that might need some work with a specific puppy, and what is likely to motivate a particular puppy in training. But it is VERY subtle.

And it can all go wrong if the puppies are too tired. I helped temperament test a large litter, and the first 4 (of NINE!!!) that came in the room scored really well, After that, they got flatter and flatter, until one came in, went over to the litter box, peed and then lay down and fell asleep! We decided to just stop at that point. The puppies that had done poorly were tested again on another day, and they all did great. It wasn't a "temperament issue", it was an "I'm tired" issue. If you have someone who is trying to go too strictly "by the book", things can be misinterpreted. I know Pam knows all that, and is very careful when testing her puppies.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tom King said:


> Any temperament testing won't tell Pam anything she doesn't already know, by then.
> 
> There are still a couple of weeks left before decisions are finalized. You wouldn't believe the effort that Pam puts into this. With this many puppies at one time, it makes it a lot more complicated, but I will guarantee that all will go to the best fitting home.


And NO ONE does that job better than Pam.


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

krandall said:


> And NO ONE does that job better than Pam.


Yes! You said What I had thought I was saying the first time around. Her litters are great puppies. I trust Pam to give them the best care (she does have a wonderful setup, by the way. I visited other breeders when first starting this process so fully appreciate what Pam has done). And I trust her to pick my puppy. But if I do decide at the last minute that my heart is tugging me another way, I will talk it through with Pam.

What this conversation has done is helped me articulate clearly to Pam what I am hoping for in my puppy and helped me to understand some things I didnt know. I am appreciative to have Pam there for me and that she is so responsive to my thoughts and questions. And I am thankful for you, Karen, and the other forum members, who are so willing to share their knowledge.


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

krandall said:


> I am NOT suggesting that you should/would over-ride Pam. Far from it! She lives with the puppies day in and day out. She knows what they are like better than anyone else. I am only saying that if there are two puppies in the running, (there were when I got Kodi) sometimes one will really speak to you. That's what happened with Kodi, and Pam saw it too. I suspect, that if Kodi had already been promised to someone else, I would have happily taken the other puppy home, and we would have gotten along fine. But Kodi and I were meant to be.
> 
> Yes, I DID know that I was specifically looking for a dog for sports. That was very important to me. I came from years of showing horses, and for physical reasons needed to "downsize". I had promised my trainer friend when she agreed to come with me, that if the puppy wasn't "right" for me, I would walk away. That would have been very hard to do. (and I DON'T think it would happen with Pam and Tom. If the puppy weren't right, they would tell you so ahead of time) But when I got Kodi from them, I didn't know them at all, and not all breeders are as responsible. But I WOULD have walked away without a puppy, if there hadn't been a puppy there who was a good fit for me, or if I hadn't liked the way they were being raised. I now think Pam and Tom are a role models for HOW puppies should be raised! But again, I didn't know that ahead of time. In your case, KNOWING this particular breeder, I know you don't have to worry about getting the "wrong" puppy.
> 
> ...


Such good info, Karen. And that is good to know about the testing. It's such a fascinating world, and I have so much to learn . . .


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> I don't quite agree with what you read about sports being only a couple of years. It takes a good solid 2-3 years to even PRODUCE a solid competitor. Before that, we might do a little competing, but when things go wrong, we say, "Well, he's only a puppy, so it's to be expected!"  Kodi is 9, and started his competitive life VERY early, at 15 months. (too early... he was my first competition dog and I started him too early. I have had to work through some issues as a result, and would never do it the same way again) At 9, he is still at his peak in terms of performance. Barring unexpected problems, I would expect him to continue for another 3-4 years. Remember, this is a long-lived breed, and they tend to "stay young" until their last couple of years. Kodi still enjoys the occasional RLH, and I remember Twinkle, his grandma, still running after the balls Tom threw at 15 and older. When Kodi does retire from ring sports, I plan to explore nosework with him, as that doesn't put any physical demands on an aging body.


What issues did you have to work through as a result of starting Kodi in competition too early? What have you done differently with the girls as a result of your experiences with Kodi?

We got Shama because DH was allergic to almost every other breed of dog including other so-called hypoallergenic breeds and because we wanted a small to medium-sized dog. I knew I wanted her to be obedient and know some tricks, and I knew I wanted to try agility with her. I also thought I wanted her to be a therapy dog. Now we're focusing on agility, and I figure we can always get into therapy dog work later when I have more time. Meanwhile I continue to try to expose her to all sorts of people for a possible future career in therapy dog work.

I started trialing her before we were ready because I wanted to take her to the National Specialty in Chicago in August 2018 (which I did do - I still need to post about it). We'll never be the fastest or most talented team, but I'm hoping we'll make steady improvement and always have fun. I do think every dog owner who has the possibility to try agility should at least take a foundations course. It's such a fun way to bond with your dog.

I wish I lived close enough to sit in the pen with all those puppies! How many are there total? Looking forward to hearing all the details about who you get to take home, Jeannie! What Wondercide products are you buying? I had never heard of Wondercide until your post . . .


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

ShamaMama said:


> We got Shama because DH was allergic to almost every other breed of dog including other so-called hypoallergenic breeds and because we wanted a small to medium-sized dog. I knew I wanted her to be obedient and know some tricks, and I knew I wanted to try agility with her. I also thought I wanted her to be a therapy dog. Now we're focusing on agility, and I figure we can always get into therapy dog work later when I have more time. Meanwhile I continue to try to expose her to all sorts of people for a possible future career in therapy dog work.
> 
> I wish I lived close enough to sit in the pen with all those puppies! How many are there total? Looking forward to hearing all the details about who you get to take home, Jeannie! What Wondercide products are you buying? I had never heard of Wondercide until your post . . .


I bought the Rosemary Natural Flea & Tick Control for Pets in different sizes to keep both in the motorhome and the house and the Rosemary Natural Personal Insect Repellant for me.

By the way, I am similar to what I hope to do with my puppy. I am looking forward to doing competitive sport with my puppy - it would be so much fun for both of us to learn to do that together - but I also need him/her to be high in the human interaction trait so he could be a therapy dog, too, for my mom and my husband. I kept wondering if I was putting a big load on my little guy, so it was good to read what you wrote. I guess I am not too off on my hopes.

Oh! And there are 11 puppies at this time! 5 from Birdie, 3 from Tibi, who is Birdie's mama, and 3 from Rosie. They really are precious.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ShamaMama said:


> What issues did you have to work through as a result of starting Kodi in competition too early? What have you done differently with the girls as a result of your experiences with Kodi?
> 
> I started trialing her before we were ready because I wanted to take her to the National Specialty in Chicago in August 2018 (which I did do - I still need to post about it). We'll never be the fastest or most talented team, but I'm hoping we'll make steady improvement and always have fun. I do think every dog owner who has the possibility to try agility should at least take a foundations course. It's such a fun way to bond with your dog.


I trialed Kodi a LOT. Sometimes he would disengage and get "sniffy", or just stop and "freeze". i didn't know then what I know now, and thought these were signs that I needed to train harder and "proof" more. What I have learned since is that these were not signs if being naughty or disengaging out of disobedience, but signs of serious ring stress. When I tried to jolly him along, things got worse. Eventually, we got to a point where I never knew whether he'd move from one exercise to the next in obedience. He'd do each excercise very well. Then then I couldn't get him to the start of the next exercise. So then I'd get nervous, not knowing whether he'd work, and it bacame a downhill spiral.

He has been in the competition ring VERY little for the last year and a half, and only in situations where I was pretty sure he would be successful and HAPPY. In the mean time, I've spent a TON of time working on engagement and on working just on a few seconds of happy work in the ring, then run out and have a party. Basically, if I take him in the ring, whether for practice or competition, if he doesn't set up quickly and happily, the first time I ask, I don't ask again. He's not ready. So I thank the judge (or the person running the run throughs) get down on a knee and invite him over for a skritch. He ALWAYS will come to me for some love. . The trainer I work with also understands what I'm doing, and is very supportive about taking however long it takes to get him to ask for work.

I make him push ME to work. And he LIKES to work, he just had gotten himself in a bad place about the competition ring. So he is giving me that push faster and faster, and the shut-downs are happening less often. We have a saying with horses that "they have only a certain number of jumps in them." I have come to the same conclusion in terms of dogs and showing. I showed him a LOT for a lot of years, when I now believe he wasn't really ready for it. For his WCRL ARCHMX, he had 30 consecutive runs with no NQs, almost all scores over 200,and about half of them perfect scores (210). He is the ONLY Havanese to have achieved this title, and that was more than 2 years ago. He worked for me, not because he was loving it. I do think we will get back in the ring again, and finish open and utility in obedience. But it will be when HE shows me he is ready and eager to be there.

Pixel doesn't compete and probably won't. She and Dave have become SO bonded that they just want to be together... all the time.  Panda is doing really well, but I'm taking things slow with her. I'm not pushing her. I have purposely NQ'd her a couple of times when she COULD have q'd, by doing something silly to make her happy becuase I've sen she was starting to struggle. I want her to want to be in the ring. Always.

It took me a long time, a LOT of work, and some really good instructors to learn this. And Kodi was my guinea pig. He's my first dog, and I made mistakes. (I'm sure I'll make mistakes with Panda too, but they will be new ones! )

So, if there is ANY advice I can give to you and other people who are working with their first performance dog, it's to enjoy the journey and don't rush things. It isn't a race. You have years to enjoy working with your dog.


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

krandall said:


> So, if there is ANY advice I can give to you and other people who are working with their first performance dog, it's to enjoy the journey and don't rush things. It isn't a race. You have years to enjoy working with your dog.


Karen, would you say one gender is better than the other in agility? I read that girls are quicker, in curves and tight work, but males faster since they're stronger. Do you feel that is true, and how does that translate in the ring and does it matter? Since females do compete I would think that some do very well. Your thoughts?


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> I trialed Kodi a LOT. Sometimes he would disengage and get "sniffy", or just stop and "freeze". i didn't know then what I know now, and thought these were signs that I needed to train harder and "proof" more. What I have learned since is that these were not signs if being naughty or disengaging out of disobedience, but signs of serious ring stress. When I tried to jolly him along, things got worse. Eventually, we got to a point where I never knew whether he'd move from one exercise to the next in obedience. He'd do each excercise very well. Then then I couldn't get him to the start of the next exercise. So then I'd get nervous, not knowing whether he'd work, and it bacame a downhill spiral.


This sounds like Shama in agility. Getting sniffy and stopping and freezing. Add in the occasional running off the course too! One of my trainers has said I have to become the most important person in her life, someone she wants to be with above everyone and every dog else. Easier said than done! Any advice for how I can get her to want to keep running with me when she stops? I'm planning to take a break from trials after our local trial on September 2. We'll keep practicing, and I'll work on engagement. Thanks!


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Are the puppy boxes full of Equine Pine Pellets? And, the puppies don't play and eat them?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jeanniek said:


> Karen, would you say one gender is better than the other in agility? I read that girls are quicker, in curves and tight work, but males faster since they're stronger. Do you feel that is true, and how does that translate in the ring and does it matter? Since females do compete I would think that some do very well. Your thoughts?


I don't think there is much difference between the genders in our breed. They are all small enough to handle the ven the tightest turns on courses without even thinking about it. I've never heard anything about the boys being "stronger". I don't know why they would be...

Among my friends who compete in agility with Havanese, I think it's about 50/50. Some of the fastest ones I know are girls.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ShamaMama said:


> This sounds like Shama in agility. Getting sniffy and stopping and freezing. Add in the occasional running off the course too! One of my trainers has said I have to become the most important person in her life, someone she wants to be with above everyone and every dog else. Easier said than done! Any advice for how I can get her to want to keep running with me when she stops? I'm planning to take a break from trials after our local trial on September 2. We'll keep practicing, and I'll work on engagement. Thanks!


Do you know about the Fenzi Dog Sport Academy on line? If not, look it up. It's a great on line dog training school, and there are online classes, webinars, podcasts, etc. I think the turning point was taking Denise Fenzi's "Engagement" class at gold. Which means you videotape your work, send it in, and she teaches you long distance. The other "gold" participants do the same, and everyone at all levels can see, but only the golds get direct help. It was REALLY hard, but I learned to really let him guide the work. Begging, as you (and I) have found, does not work.

I think she has a webinar that explains the basics of engagement, but it's MUCH harder than it appears on the surface. A lot of people confuse attention with engagement. You can do things to get your dog's attention... at least momentarily, but engagement has to be driven by the dog. She's better at teaching it than I am at explaining it. I'd strongly urge you to see if you can get into it the next time it's offered.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Mikki said:


> Are the puppy boxes full of Equine Pine Pellets? And, the puppies don't play and eat them?


Yes to type of pellets, and no to them eating them. They started with them when they were about three weeks old, so have the ingrained habit that they are a potty surface. They might mouth, and play with a pellet or two, but don't eat enough to make any kind of difference.

Unless a pup is trained to them early on, I think most people have trouble getting an older one to take to them.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> Do you know about the Fenzi Dog Sport Academy on line? If not, look it up. It's a great on line dog training school, and there are online classes, webinars, podcasts, etc. I think the turning point was taking Denise Fenzi's "Engagement" class at gold. Which means you videotape your work, send it in, and she teaches you long distance. The other "gold" participants do the same, and everyone at all levels can see, but only the golds get direct help. It was REALLY hard, but I learned to really let him guide the work. Begging, as you (and I) have found, does not work.
> 
> I think she has a webinar that explains the basics of engagement, but it's MUCH harder than it appears on the surface. A lot of people confuse attention with engagement. You can do things to get your dog's attention... at least momentarily, but engagement has to be driven by the dog. She's better at teaching it than I am at explaining it. I'd strongly urge you to see if you can get into it the next time it's offered.


Thanks for the good advice, Karen. I took her start line stay class but eventually gave up on the start line stay because it was stressing Shama out. I may revisit it one day. That engagement class sounds really great. I will check it out!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ShamaMama said:


> Thanks for the good advice, Karen. I took her start line stay class but eventually gave up on the start line stay because it was stressing Shama out. I may revisit it one day. That engagement class sounds really great. I will check it out!


Was it someone else at FSDA whose class you took? Because Denise doesn't do agility... I'd be very surprised if she would have you do anything that would stress Shama out.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Denise was not the start line stay instructor. Perhaps if I'd worked more on what I'd learned in class, Shama would have been less stressed by the start line stay. One (maybe both) of my trainers observed that Shama seemed to grow increasingly stressed as I tried to get her to wait on the start line and that that stress might make Shama run off the course or just freeze. She does indeed seem happier when I just drop and go!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ShamaMama said:


> Denise was not the start line stay instructor. Perhaps if I'd worked more on what I'd learned in class, Shama would have been less stressed by the start line stay. One (maybe both) of my trainers observed that Shama seemed to grow increasingly stressed as I tried to get her to wait on the start line and that that stress might make Shama run off the course or just freeze. She does indeed seem happier when I just drop and go!


Yeah, you do need to work on those start line stays (ALL stays) completely separately from running course until they are REALLY secure before making them start of the routine for a run.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

*drop and go*



ShamaMama said:


> Denise was not the start line stay instructor. Perhaps if I'd worked more on what I'd learned in class, Shama would have been less stressed by the start line stay. One (maybe both) of my trainers observed that Shama seemed to grow increasingly stressed as I tried to get her to wait on the start line and that that stress might make Shama run off the course or just freeze. She does indeed seem happier when I just drop and go!


That's interesting - I never realized the drop and go was an acceptable way to start an agility run -I always thought it had to be a start line start.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Maybe it's a recent thing. Watch KarMar drop and go with Nino. He's lightning fast!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> That's interesting - I never realized the drop and go was an acceptable way to start an agility run -I always thought it had to be a start line start.


Nope. It's perfectly acceptable. Of course you only see handlers of smaller dogs do it! LOL! The big problem is that when you get into the higher levels, and things get trickier, (or if you have a really fast dog) it can be really, REALLY helpful to be able to "lead out". You will see top competitors leading out 2-3 obstacles routinely on the start line, and depending on the course, way away from the dog on the pause table too.

Another start that is used by some people, depending on the way the course is set up, is the "sling shot". For that one, the dog and handler will set up facing usually at a 90º angle to the first obstacle. the handler starts to turn as they call the dog into motion and head for the obstacle. A lot of people who have big dogs without a good lead out will use a sling shot. This can work really well with a dog that gets sticky on the start line. Kodi HATED the "drop and go", because we didn't have a "working connection" when he hit the ground. But we used sling shots a LOT.

No matter how you start, the run doesn't officially start until the dog crosses the timers at the first obstacle.


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