# Unsolicited Advice...



## PiedPiper (Apr 30, 2013)

Apparently getting a dog is similar to having your first kid. Everyone assumes that you are stupid and offers "must do" advice. Oi. I seem to be a magnet for it! I, of course, have to be the oddball who crate tranes and everyone thinks I am practicing cruel and unusual punishment and I am second guessing things now! Help!

Currently Piper is up around 7am, she goes out to potty and then plays with us in the living room only. We had expanded to the kitchen, but she peed in there, so we went back to living room only. 

9am is breakfast, potty and then nap - either on our lap for snuggles or in her crate if we are busy. 

11am she is up, potty & play time, then lunch, potty, snuggles and a bit more play and then she goes in her kennel at 1:30 for a nap. She typically naps for 2 - 2.5 hours. Then up, potty, play, snack, potty, nap. She eats at 6pm and is in bed for the night between 9 & 10pm. 

We have half her kennel blocked for now and will eventually expand to give her the whole kennel. We will also expand her time outside the kennel and in different areas of the house, decreasing her "space" if she potties inside. She also has lots of play time outside, not just in the house. 

Is this "right"?? I keep having people tell me that she should have the run of the house and just to "rub her nose" in her accidents. We have never rubbed her nose in it. If she has an accident we will clap to get her attention and then immediately take her outside to her potty spot while another member of the family (usually me! LOL) cleans up the mess. Am I being "soft"??


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

PiedPiper said:


> Apparently getting a dog is similar to having your first kid. Everyone assumes that you are stupid and offers "must do" advice. Oi. I seem to be a magnet for it! I, of course, have to be the oddball who crate tranes and everyone thinks I am practicing cruel and unusual punishment and I am second guessing things now! Help!
> 
> Currently Piper is up around 7am, she goes out to potty and then plays with us in the living room only. We had expanded to the kitchen, but she peed in there, so we went back to living room only.
> 
> ...


You are doing absolutely fine, and ANYONE who says to rub a dog's nose in it, needs their OWN nose rubbed in it!:crazy: A dog learns absolutely NOTHING from that. Potty training is all about establishing good habits, and it sounds like that's exactly what you are doing. Most potty training problems come form too little supervision and too much freedom, not the other way around. You are not being "soft" you are being "smart"!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

YOU are doing FANTASTIC!! Smile, nod and ignore 'advice' ... seriously.
Yes, it is a lot like raising children... Tillie is nearly 3 yrs old and on a regular basis I get people complaining that TILLIE is hot and it's 'time for her summer hair cut' really!??
Just ignore those people, often their hearts are in the right place, but thier advice is ancient.


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## RosieW (Apr 27, 2013)

Pied Piper, I adopted my just turned 3 y/o Lola 3 1/2 weeks ago. Have had to hold my tongue more than a few times already. Argghhh, I feel your pain. "She's fat" was the first one I heard. "No (I'm thinking but not saying), YOU ARE." Another neighbor launched into a diatribe about how matted she'd be. 

Look only on the bright side, relish the compliments and sweetness shown your new baby. Follow TilliesMom's advice. 

Rosie


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## PiedPiper (Apr 30, 2013)

Thanks all! This forum has been such a blessing to me!


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## misstray (Feb 6, 2011)

It's funny how often the unsolicited advice involves something I'd never do to my dog. IE: shock collars, rubbing nose in it, etc. OR is somehow disparaging about appearance - usually involving getting a haircut. 

Now I know our dogs aren't children (in my opinion they are better! ha ha), but if I went up to someone and suggested they use a cattle prod on their unruly toddler or said they needed a haircut...I'm pretty sure it wouldn't go over very well. So, why on earth would it go over any better when you are talking about my dog?!!


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Sounds great to me. When Hanna was a pup my method was to try to "prevent" her from having accidents by taking her out frequently and then some if I noticed her sniffing around. The few times she did have an accident I blamed myself for being too preoccupied with something else and not taking her out in a timely way. I also crate trained her and I think it's a great method - the puppy just learns so quickly when other options are blocked off. Dogs are denning animals and naturally seek out small spaces for comfort, so most dogs enjoy their kennel.

Don't listen to those know-nothings!


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

Just want to offer further support ....that it sounds like you are doing a great job. Listen to the comments made by above forum members. They know what they are talking about. I had three children. I was not prepared for how much like bringing home a newborn human infant these Havs would be as puppies. And the unsolicited advice you are getting sounds much like the person with no children going off on 'how I would never allow my child to do thus and so, or I would do it this way'. And then watching how their tune changes after a child comes into their life. Hahaha

Carry on and keep doing what you are doing.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

misstray said:


> It's funny how often the unsolicited advice involves something I'd never do to my dog. IE: shock collars, rubbing nose in it, etc. OR is somehow disparaging about appearance - usually involving getting a haircut.
> 
> Now I know our dogs aren't children (in my opinion they are better! ha ha), but if I went up to someone and suggested they use a cattle prod on their unruly toddler or said they needed a haircut...I'm pretty sure it wouldn't go over very well. So, why on earth would it go over any better when you are talking about my dog?!!


Don't fool yourself, though...

People are JUST as rude about saying things about your kids. My older son was very tall for his age, and never had a "toddler" build. He was a string bean. He also talked in complete sentences at 18 months. There were several times when I heard someone in a store making a comment about how my child was "acting like a two year old" (obviously thinking he was much older) when, in fact, he hadn't yet REACHED his second birthday!

Or the time that someone asked me if they were adopted, because one was dark haired, dark eyed and a string bean, while the other was pale blonde, blue eyed and a fire plug. I mean, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with having adopted children or BEING an adopted child. But it's just not a question you ask!!!


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## marlowe'sgirl (Jun 17, 2010)

Totally right method! I did the crate train, and my pup did spend a lot of his first few months in his crate. At around 7 months, he got full run of downstairs and 11 mo, got to sleep in our bed and at 2 yrs, full run up and downstairs.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

atsilvers27 said:


> Sounds great to me. When Hanna was a pup my method was to try to "prevent" her from having accidents by taking her out frequently and then some if I noticed her sniffing around. The few times she did have an accident I blamed myself for being too preoccupied with something else and not taking her out in a timely way. I also crate trained her and I think it's a great method - the puppy just learns so quickly when other options are blocked off. Dogs are denning animals and naturally seek out small spaces for comfort, so most dogs enjoy their kennel.
> 
> Don't listen to those know-nothings!


We used an ex-pen more than a crate, because Kodi was totally reliable with his litter box. But it was the same idea.

I also blamed myself for the accidents he had. We used to have a breeder on the forum who hasn't posted for a long time. She used to say that if your puppy had an accident, roll up a newspaper and swat yourself with it. I think that's about right!


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## PiedPiper (Apr 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> We used an ex-pen more than a crate, because Kodi was totally reliable with his litter box. But it was the same idea.
> 
> I also blamed myself for the accidents he had. We used to have a breeder on the forum who hasn't posted for a long time. She used to say that if your puppy had an accident, roll up a newspaper and swat yourself with it. I think that's about right!


LOL The couple times Piper has peed in the house are totally my fault. The first time she asked to go out I thought she was just whining for the kids (who had went outside). She corrected me by promptly peeing on her blanket. That'll learn me!


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## RosieW (Apr 27, 2013)

Thought I'd add this. I've been listening to Cesar Millan's book, "A Member of the Family". Only a third through it, but he supports what you have been doing. 

Rosie


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

RosieW said:


> Thought I'd add this. I've been listening to Cesar Millan's book, "A Member of the Family". Only a third through it, but he supports what you have been doing.
> 
> Rosie


Just be careful. There are some parts of what CM teaches that are OK, but he also uses a lot of coercive, heavy handed methods. He also continues to spout his "dominance" and "pack leader" theories that have absolutely no basis in scientifically proven dog (or even wolf) behavior. Some of what he teaches is harmful to dogs, ESPECIALLY "soft" temperament breeds like Havanese. It can also be harmful to humans (that's why he often says "don't try this at home") with sharper temperament dogs or those with established behavior "problems".


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## Lila (Apr 9, 2013)

Sounds to me like you're doing an excellent job!! Actually better than most and surely better than those that have given you "advice" 

I've had all kinds of advice from when I was pregnant to about every age my kids turned. I took what I wanted and discarded the rest. If the people meant well, I'd smile and say thank you and promptly ignore it 

As I say for moms of children and doggies. If you're trying and studying and reading and CARE - you're instincts are probably just right!!! Don't worry so much. Do what you can and don't forget to enjoy your puppy and if you goof or he goofs, just laugh it off, learn from the mistake and love him anyway. 

I actually had people tell me I was holding my new born baby too much. Can you believe that? I held her the most because I could, she was my first and to this day (she's 31) she's the most caring, loving women you could ever imagine. Never a spoiled bone in her body - even as a child.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lila said:


> Sounds to me like you're doing an excellent job!! Actually better than most and surely better than those that have given you "advice"
> 
> I've had all kinds of advice from when I was pregnant to about every age my kids turned. I took what I wanted and discarded the rest. If the people meant well, I'd smile and say thank you and promptly ignore it
> 
> ...


Well said. Neither children NOR dogs are "spoiled" by "too much" love... there's no such thing. If they are spoiled, it's a lack of good teaching and proper boundaries. And that's laziness on the part of the parents or owners! Both dogs and children are very resilient, and are able to withstand the occasional mistakes we ALL make, even with the best of intentions. (good thing, or NONE of our kids would grow up into good citizens! <g>)


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## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

krandall said:


> Well said. Neither children NOR dogs are "spoiled" by "too much" love... there's no such thing. If they are spoiled, it's a lack of good teaching and proper boundaries. And that's laziness on the part of the parents or owners! Both dogs and children are very resilient, and are able to withstand the occasional mistakes we ALL make, even with the best of intentions. (good thing, or NONE of our kids would grow up into good citizens! <g>)


Well said Karen.


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## RosieW (Apr 27, 2013)

Appreciate KRANDALL'S thoughts. I'm not a televiewer so don't know much about Cesar. I'm old enough and smart enough, I hope, to sort his wheat from his chaff. He goes overboard, IMO, re 'required' amounts of exercise which he advocates. My lovely Lola and I are not going for 45 minute walks in pouring rain. We'll play inside. Please, y'all, don't tell me this is wrong. 

I'm committed to being a very good mommy. I will do my best, most of the time, for this very dear young dog. Reading recommendations will be appreciated.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

RosieW said:


> Appreciate KRANDALL'S thoughts. I'm not a televiewer so don't know much about Cesar. I'm old enough and smart enough, I hope, to sort his wheat from his chaff. He goes overboard, IMO, re 'required' amounts of exercise which he advocates. My lovely Lola and I are not going for 45 minute walks in pouring rain. We'll play inside. Please, y'all, don't tell me this is wrong.
> 
> I'm committed to being a very good mommy. I will do my best, most of the time, for this very dear young dog. Reading recommendations will be appreciated.


Yeah, the average Hav is NOT going to appreciate that 45 minute walk in the rain any more than you do.  One of the joys of a small dog is taht you CAN exercise them in the house. They sure love their long walks... Kodi LOVES to run in the woods! But he's perfectly capable to "hang out" if that's what the day brings. He DID need CONSISTENT daily exercise as a puppy (through about 18 months) to be able to settle and attend to training.

Oh, and my very favorite puppy book by far is "The Focused Puppy":

The Focused Puppy: 9781892694263: Amazon.com: Books

Another one I remember liking is "The Puppy Whisperer". (this book, BTW, pre-dates CM):

The Puppy Whisperer: A Compassionate, Non Violent Guide to Early Training and Care: Terence Cranendonk, Paul Owens, Norma Eckroate: 9781593375973: Amazon.com: Books


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## PiedPiper (Apr 30, 2013)

Lila said:


> I actually had people tell me I was holding my new born baby too much. Can you believe that? I held her the most because I could, she was my first and to this day (she's 31) she's the most caring, loving women you could ever imagine. Never a spoiled bone in her body - even as a child.


I've been accused of that with my kids too! lol


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## PiedPiper (Apr 30, 2013)

RosieW said:


> Appreciate KRANDALL'S thoughts. I'm not a televiewer so don't know much about Cesar. I'm old enough and smart enough, I hope, to sort his wheat from his chaff. He goes overboard, IMO, re 'required' amounts of exercise which he advocates. My lovely Lola and I are not going for 45 minute walks in pouring rain. We'll play inside. Please, y'all, don't tell me this is wrong.
> 
> I'm committed to being a very good mommy. I will do my best, most of the time, for this very dear young dog. Reading recommendations will be appreciated.


Piper would refuse to walk for 45 minutes...never mind the rain! LOL

The Art Of Raising A Puppy by The Monks of New Skete is a good read. My favorite so far is My Smart Puppy by Brian Kilcommons & Sarah Wilson. I borrowed them from the library and I've already added My Smart Puppy to my next Amazon order.


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## RosieW (Apr 27, 2013)

krandall, before I try to find these books at the library, would you tell me if you think the content would be good for me learning to care for a 3 year old?

So many hours, so many books, and a dog that needs brushing, and weeds to be pulled, and.................................


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## Dory (Jan 4, 2012)

I definitely have my own agenda for how I am raising Quincy. Our breeder was awesome about providing great information and I trust her opinion implicitly. I was and still am all about positive reinforcement training. When people would try to tell me how I should train my dog or what I "should" be doing, I would just smile and nod. A couple of times I got a little snippy/sarcastic, but have learned that sometimes it's best to just shut up lol.
I saw a Rottweiler being walked with a pronged collar recently. I really had to hold my tongue when I saw that. I don't know if these guys think that those kinds of collars on their dogs makes them look cool or what, but honestly, what are people thinking?!


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## Dory (Jan 4, 2012)

krandall said:


> Yeah, the average Hav is NOT going to appreciate that 45 minute walk in the rain any more than you do.  One of the joys of a small dog is taht you CAN exercise them in the house. They sure love their long walks... Kodi LOVES to run in the woods! But he's perfectly capable to "hang out" if that's what the day brings. He DID need CONSISTENT daily exercise as a puppy (through about 18 months) to be able to settle and attend to training.
> 
> Oh, and my very favorite puppy book by far is "The Focused Puppy":
> 
> ...


I really like The Puppy Whisperer too. Haven't read the other one, I'll have to look it up.


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## PiedPiper (Apr 30, 2013)

Dory said:


> I definitely have my own agenda for how I am raising Quincy. Our breeder was awesome about providing great information and I trust her opinion implicitly. I was and still am all about positive reinforcement training. When people would try to tell me how I should train my dog or what I "should" be doing, I would just smile and nod. A couple of times I got a little snippy/sarcastic, but have learned that sometimes it's best to just shut up lol.
> I saw a Rottweiler being walked with a pronged collar recently. I really had to hold my tongue when I saw that. I don't know if these guys think that those kinds of collars on their dogs makes them look cool or what, but honestly, what are people thinking?!


I recently read an ad for a dog that came with food, dish, leash and shock collar.


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Dory said:


> I definitely have my own agenda for how I am raising Quincy. Our breeder waever esome about providing great information and I trust her opinion implicitly. I was and still am all about positive reinforcement training. When people would try to tell me how I should train my dog or what I "should" be doing, I would just smile and nod. A couple of times I got a little snippy/sarcastic, but have learned that sometimes it's best to just shut up lol.
> I saw a Rottweiler being walked with a pronged collar recently. I really had to hold my tongue when I saw that. I don't know if these guys think that those kinds of collars on their dogs makes them look cool or what, but honestly, what are people thinking?!


IMO prong collars are the easy/lazy way out for handling a large breed dog, but honestly, have you ever walked a 100lbs Rottweiler? I have walked many. Some are very sweet and a child could walk them, but they are one of the most powerful breeds out there, and can be dog aggressive, and difficult to control if not trained well. I wouldn't let my dog around a loose one if I didn't already know it. One bite will end a Havanese. Prong collars are not as vicious as they look, though I wouldn't recommend them. Rotties are solid muscle in the neck, chest and shoulders, as well as rear, and a harness and even a nylon collar can be ineffective if one starts going nuts. A better tool is a slip lead, right behind the ears.

As a small dog owner I would rather see a hard to control rottie on a prong collar than a loose nylon collar, you'd be amazed at how quickly a dog can get out of that! If you've never tried walking 100lbs of dog muscle that is determined to get to another dog, it's easy to say to just sweet-talk the dog and then the owner wouldn't need the prong collar. This breed needs a solid foundation in puppy hood a really good owner, trainer and good genetics. Without this, the dog has the potential to do serious harm, and when owners start to realize they didn't do enough training as a puppy and adolescent, many use a prong collar to control them as they realize their dog could potentially kill your dog with one lunge.


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## KimmPuppy (Apr 21, 2013)

Sounds like you are doing a really great job!!! The people giving advice do not sound like they have a clue!!! 

We are crate and ex pen training. It is going really well. Benny LOVES his crate and comes and goes as he pleases since it is in his ex pen. We do have play time in the living room and outside. 

He sleeps from about 10pm - 6:30am in his crate every night. No whimpering... yay... I need my sleep!! At 9 1/2 weeks he is holding his potty all night. I hope that continues


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## PiedPiper (Apr 30, 2013)

KimmPuppy said:


> Sounds like you are doing a really great job!!! The people giving advice do not sound like they have a clue!!!
> 
> We are crate and ex pen training. It is going really well. Benny LOVES his crate and comes and goes as he pleases since it is in his ex pen. We do have play time in the living room and outside.
> 
> He sleeps from about 10pm - 6:30am in his crate every night. No whimpering... yay... I need my sleep!! At 9 1/2 weeks he is holding his potty all night. I hope that continues


TY  Sounds like Benny is doing really well too. Piper slept straight through for the past two nights, so I am hoping that continues!


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## KimmPuppy (Apr 21, 2013)

PiedPiper said:


> TY  Sounds like Benny is doing really well too. Piper slept straight through for the past two nights, so I am hoping that continues!


Yay Piper!!! It is such a relief!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

PiedPiper said:


> Piper would refuse to walk for 45 minutes...never mind the rain! LOL
> 
> The Art Of Raising A Puppy by The Monks of New Skete is a good read. My favorite so far is My Smart Puppy by Brian Kilcommons & Sarah Wilson. I borrowed them from the library and I've already added My Smart Puppy to my next Amazon order.


Piper os still a little baby. Give her a few months.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

RosieW said:


> krandall, before I try to find these books at the library, would you tell me if you think the content would be good for me learning to care for a 3 year old?
> 
> So many hours, so many books, and a dog that needs brushing, and weeds to be pulled, and.................................


I think it's definitely a worthwhile read, but here is the companion volume (actually written first) that "focuses" on adult dogs. The title is "In Focus":

http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=586&ParentCat=175


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

atsilvers27 said:


> IMO prong collars are the easy/lazy way out for handling a large breed dog, but honestly, have you ever walked a 100lbs Rottweiler? I have walked many. Some are very sweet and a child could walk them, but they are one of the most powerful breeds out there, and can be dog aggressive, and difficult to control if not trained well. I wouldn't let my dog around a loose one if I didn't already know it. One bite will end a Havanese. Prong collars are not as vicious as they look, though I wouldn't recommend them. Rotties are solid muscle in the neck, chest and shoulders, as well as rear, and a harness and even a nylon collar can be ineffective if one starts going nuts. A better tool is a slip lead, right behind the ears.
> 
> As a small dog owner I would rather see a hard to control rottie on a prong collar than a loose nylon collar, you'd be amazed at how quickly a dog can get out of that! If you've never tried walking 100lbs of dog muscle that is determined to get to another dog, it's easy to say to just sweet-talk the dog and then the owner wouldn't need the prong collar. This breed needs a solid foundation in puppy hood a really good owner, trainer and good genetics. Without this, the dog has the potential to do serious harm, and when owners start to realize they didn't do enough training as a puppy and adolescent, many use a prong collar to control them as they realize their dog could potentially kill your dog with one lunge.


The problem is, Angela, that it really all comes down to your last couple of sentences wth Rotties and many of the "Bully" breeds. These dogs shouldn't belong to the average "pet owner". And you can bet your bottom dollar that the good breeders of the GOOD dogs of this type make SURE they go to responsible owners willing to make the committment to training them well and working with them regularly. The good ones are FANTASTIC working dogs.

The trouble is, that there are way too many BYB and puppy mill dogs of this type sold to people who have no business having one at all. In these cases, even a pinch collar or an e-collar doesn't prevent it from being a disaster waiting to happen. I don't believe AT ALL in municipalities outlawing certain breeds. I DO wish that they would require potential owners of these breeds to prove that they have the skills and training to handle these breeds... Maybe followed up with basic training/manners testing at one and two years old. Dogs that don't pass, the owner doesn't get to keep. Something like that. The trouble, as in most things, is enforcement.


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