# Thoughts on me getting another dog



## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Think about my situation specifically. Gryff is 100% totally about me and me alone. He will have almost nothing to do with my husband or my son. He won't let either of them take him out for potty. He can be having a great time playing with my husband, but if I walk out of the room, he follows me. If I'm not home, he will wait for me by the door instead of hanging out with Chuck or Alec. My family feels cheated, as though they don't have a dog at all.

What do you think would happen if we got another dog? I am concerned that Gryff may get jelous and turn violent towards it or my son. What if it backfires and now I have two dogs that won't have anything to do with the rest of my family.

I really need some advice. I can't believe how expensive Gryff is turning out to be - especially if I have to pony up for another dog just to get the satisfaction of having a family dog.

My husband is starting to think we should do a trade in. Of course, I am not going to even discuss that. However yesterday Chuck and I were in the yard working and Gryff was by the front door whining. Alec went to pet him and got bit. I can't have that going on either.

What do you think?


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Wow, your situation is quite complicated. I think if you'd like to try getting a second dog, I'd suggest working very closely with a good, reputable Hav breeder who will allow you to "try out" the prospective dog. Lincoln and Scout's breeder, and many other good ones here, care very much about placing their pups in a good situation and would much rather do a trial and take the dog back if it doesn't work out than to leave a dog in a situation that just isn't working out. 

I am sorry to hear Gryff tried to bite Alec and hope things will improve between them. :hug:


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

That's a tough call Ivy. I agree with Jane about trying to find a breeder who will REALLY work with you instead of simply selling you a puppy. It sounds like the issues between Gryff and Alec, while better, are still not entirely resolved. I can see your husband's and son's positions too. They would like a dog that belongs to them too. I'm certainly no help. I can see it going either way. Either Gryff is happy to be just your dog and will let a puppy take up the slack with the other family members or he'll be possesive of all of you and resent the presence of a puppy. 
I know Gryff has been to a play date but has anyone actually brought a dog to your house? If so, how does Gryff react when you, your husband or your son interact with that other dog?


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Susan, he's fine with that. We have several dogs in the neighborhood who pop over now and again. We can all play with the visiting dog without Gryff getting upset.


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## Poornima (Jun 29, 2007)

I am so sorry to hear about Gryff biting Alec. It must be hard to deal with Gryff being so attached to you. 

I agree with Jane. Jane and I have the same breeder. When I decided to get the second one, the breeder recommended a trial period at our home as well as picked the puppy that was best suited for Benji's temperament. She made sure that they both would thrive in our home. I also kept Benji and Lizzie with the breeder for a few days so that they could bond and the breeder could observe their interaction. They both bonded well and I was able to get her guidance when they came back.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

That's a good start. It couldn't hurt to just talk with a breeder and explain your situation in depth and see what they say.


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

So, Gryff actually bit him, not just went to bite him?! Oh crap Ivy! Well, this is not good and I don't know if an added dog would help you all.

Are you back to feeding him and letting him sleep with you and is Alec still doing classes? I think you just have to not be the one feeding him, and maybe you just can't trust Gryff to be with Alec alone, I guess I wouldn't. You need to be there to make if clear to Gryff that is not okay to growl or bite ANYONE in your pack. I think too it could get nasty. Okay, actually I don't know what I'm saying...this just stinks.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Ivy,
I think you need to get a handle on Gryff before you could ever bring in another dog and expect different results. I must sound like a broken record,but YOU need to set the guidelines for Gryff and EVERYONE needs to be on board. What good are rules if they are only applied part of the time? Gryff is going to do what Gryff wants(including biting)as long as YOU allow it. There's is no way any dog of mine would have bite 2....not because of being mean,but because I wouldn't allow it.My dogs respect me as a leader...and my husband and my daughter and my son. Do you see what I mean?

I thought Gryff passed a CGC test? How could he do that and still bite?


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

He passed the CGC test and the Therapy Dog test. I suppose if it was my husband or son holding the leash and not me he wouldn't have passed. If Alec tries to take him out, he digs his heels in so hard that Alec is practically dragging him - which is why I don't really want Alec taking Gryff out. I don't want Gryff to get hurt and then blame Alec for it.

It really shouldn't be this difficult to have a dog!


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

Ivy let Alec drag him. Seriously. I don't think he's going to get hurt and he needs to know Alec is higher than he is in your pack. There is no reason he shouldn't learn to walk on the leash for Alec, who is, if I remember correctly eight? My son is eight and of course Posh always brings her toy back to me when they are playing retrieve, but he keeps with the game and I always say to her "I'm not playing, go bring it to Sage." He'll figure out that it's much more fun to walk with Alec than drag with Alec. Alec can keep it positive and tell him how good he's being when he walks well. Also, my son has just started going to agility with me, and I think my mom is going to let him run with her sheltie mix on the course. Is this a fun activity you could do with Gryff and Alec and let Alec be the junior handler?


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Ivy, you're not going to like what I have to say...but having had to give a dog back myself, I speak from experience. You've just worked too hard, for too long with this situation. Find Gryff a new, adult only, single woman home and find yourself a family dog. It's only fair to Gryff and your family. I know it's hard, but I personally think that the time has come. I know you love him, but your family has been put out for so long now and he still isn't attached to anyone but you. Tough love takes tough talk sometimes. I'm just so sorry it's come to this. I'm hoping you can work something out but if it were me, I'd go for the new dog after finding Gryff a home. Hugs to you with this very difficult decision.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I don't think another havanese is going to get a different result. I truely don't. 

You can not baby a dog,let it bite etc. and elevate a dog higher then the people in the pack. It doesn't matter what breed it is. Vinnie and Quince KNOW that all humans in my house are BOSS. That's it. I love them dearly---but they ARE DOGS! Dogs---not people. 

Gyrff is bonded to just you? I don't think that would be an issue either if you set him some rules and boundaries. Quincy is more bonded to me then anyone else---but he is not allowed to treat other people in my house nasty if I'm not there.

I just think it's sad...how can you have a CGC and therapy dog that'll bite? That's crazy! You could never trust him EVER in a therapy situation if he bites your own son and you've allowed it. I'm sorry---I don't want to hurt your feelings--but you need to be more assertive and take a leadership role along with your family members for any dog to thrive.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Julie, I agree with you. I think it would be wisest to FIRST address the issues with Gryff, before adding another pup to the household. I don't think you can rely on a new dog solving the problems. Most likely, it will only make things worse. Who knows? ... but it's a huge commitment to make if you aren't sure. 

Have you tried a personal trainer, Ivy? I can't remember... If you can't trust Gryff to be handled by other family members, then there's a problem and it needs to be worked out. I would feel very sad about doing what Lisa's suggested, but that's a decision only you and your family can make. Do please take time to really mull things over. You'll probably get a whole slew of ideas from us here, but you'll have to choose what's best. 

Good luck, Ivy and (((hugs))) for you all!


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

Ivy, I'm thinking it really shouldn't be that hard. I know you've been frustrated several times with Gryff. He looks like such a doll too! Is Gryff sleeping in a crate? Is your son doing any work with him? I've seen that Victoria gal on T.V. and when a dog is overly bonded with a family member she always makes that person back away from being involved with the dog and puts the other family members in charge of walks,feeding and play time.

I don't think adding another dog is the answer, I think you need to find a solution with Gryff first. Maybe the solution will come with firm rules, an attitude of leadership and repetitive training or maybe it's time to find him another home as suggested. Or maybe your breeder would take him back to school as it were and work with him? Be sure if you consider that option to double check your contract since it may state that the dog cannot be re-homed and must be returned to the breeder. Your family sounds like they really aren't getting what they had hoped for in a family dog with Gryff and that makes it hard on everyone. Whatever choices you make my heart goes out to you.


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## trueblue (Jan 22, 2008)

I thought things were going better between Gryff and Alec. Gosh, what a hard decision to make. I'm on the bandwagon with the folks who think bringing another dog into the house isn't going to help the situation. I posted on one of Missy's threads about an animal psychologist/behaviorist (sp??)...my friend hired one to help with her yorkie, who sounds a lot like Gryff in terms of behavior. He was absolutely TERRIFIED of other dogs, and screamed like he was dying if there was another dog within 3 feet of him...he only listened to my friend, and bit several people (me included) for no apparent reason. When my friend got married recently and her new husband and his kids from a previous marriage moved in, the situation got worse. She says he has improved tremendously with the training that they learned thru the guy they hired. He was recommended by her vet. I don't know if that's something that would help, but I guess it couldn't hurt. The only thing I don't know is how much it cost...I didn't think it was polite to ask.

I hope you find a solution b/c I know you love your Gryff. :hug:


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Things are better with Gryff and the rest of the household - they just aren't as good as I'd like them to be. Every so often, this starts to happen and then I back off, which is the plan now. Nobody wants to get rid of Gryff. Even Alec. If I mention it as a possiblilty, he gets really upset.

We had a behaviorist come very early on when we first got Gryff. At that point, Alec was afraid of dogs. That isn't an issue anymore.

Okay, back to square one here.


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## lulubella (Mar 25, 2008)

Ivy,

Molly is just like Gryff in that she's EXTREMELY attached to just me. The way you described Gryff, you could have been talking about her! (I actually chuckled!) We hired a trainer to come to the house, and she's definitely getting a little better. The kids were actually able to walk her all the way to the corner without her getting out of her collar and bolting back to me!

She follows me EVERYWHERE! Sometimes I laugh at her thinking about how exhausted she must be following me--the longest I ever sit is when I'm at the computer. Otherwise I'm up and down constantly!

Anyway, I don't really know what advice to give you, but I wanted you to know that you're not alone!

Oh--one thing the trainer did say that seems to be working is to shout "SHAME" at her whenever she shows the slightest aggression toward anyone, and I have to say she hasn't done it in weeks! She didn't like that she upset me at all!

Good luck!


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## mybella (May 16, 2008)

I hope it works out for all. It sounds like a case for the Dog Whisper or if you watch Animal Planet - It's Me or the Dog. If only it was as easy as seen on TV. Good Luck.


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## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

I "hear" your pain when you post about Gryff and your family. I went back and read some of your old posts tonight to see if I could offer any advice based on those. I think I see that the "rules" change often for Gryff. It looks like he is no longer being crated at night because of "good behavior." Crating is not a punishment, but a way of assuring a dog's safety at night, as well as teaching him his place. It also looks like you are doing more for Gryff, also based on good behavior, even though you have been advised to let your family do most of his care. 

If I am wrong and reading more into your past posts, just let me know. As an outsider, I am thinking if everyone was consistent with how Gryff was treated, perhaps there would not be a problem. 

If the problem persisted in spite of consistent treatment, I would follow the tough advice of Lisa.

Hugs to you.....


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

I sense these havanese are one-woman or one-man dogs. I really think they attach themselves to ONE and that's it.

I often think what would it would be like if Henry had like more of a family since I am alone with him, and sometimes I feel bad that it's just the two of us (ahem, I'm a bit boring).

Anyway back to you and your family - - Gryff is still a young dog and can still be trained. Maybe he sensed Alec's fear of dogs and is addressing that. Maybe you need to get Alex to show more leadership with the dog???

PS: remember when DH and Alec were with Gryff for the entire weekend?? that worked out so well!?


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## mintchip (Apr 19, 2007)

gelbergirl said:


> I sense these havanese are one-woman or one-man dogs. I really think they attach themselves to ONE and that's it.


I disagree.
Oliver and Comet are attached to me but also all my family and friends as well.
I have a lot of friends with havanese and we share dog sitting as well. They are friendly towards everyone.


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

mintchip said:


> I disagree.
> Oliver and Comet are attached to me but also all my family and friends as well.
> I have a lot of friends with havanese and we share dog sitting as well. They are friendly towards everyone.


Mine are like yours. They love people! They are good with my DH and my son and would go home with so many different people, I need to keep a close eye on them!


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## EstrellaVila (Nov 30, 2007)

When we just had carmen we did not know how she would react to another dog but after a day of being confused she LOVED tito. She has some weird issues with other dogs but not with (friendly) people. She will go off on homeless guys/weird people but thats another story. We worked on Carmen's behavior before we got Tito and got her to the point where we could read her reactions. 

Gryff sounds a bit more unpredictable. I do not like that he has bit Alec, and it sounds like sometimes he is a good boy and sometimes he is a stinker. I would really recommend trying to figure out Gryff before you get another dog. The other thing is, one dog may mimic the other and you do not want biting to be a behavior the other dog picks up. A behaviorist is a good way to start and I would recommend reading up on dog behavior and training methods to better understand how to read and speak to your little guy. It is a tough situation but I do not think another dog right now will be the bandaid you are hoping for. If working with him doesnt work you may need to adopt him out as Lisa is saying.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Hi Ivy,

I think at this point you have to really be honest with yourself about the situation. We each have different personalities and abilities to really take on an "alpha" role successfully with a dog who is more challenging.

If you think you can improve the situation, definitely try to work again with Gryff and make headway on the behavior issues before bringing a second dog into the mix. A second dog will not make the first dog's issues better - if anything, the second dog may pick up unwanted behavior from the first one.

But if you cannot do it, for whatever reason (no blaming or judging here at all - sometimes it just isn't working), your options are to live with Gryff the way he is (and not get a second dog), or to rehome Gryff and get a second dog that might be a better fit with your family. 

I have a couple of friends who have chosen the first option (to keep a dog with behavior problems - biting), although they are both really sad about it - they both really want to get a second dog. 

My heart goes out to you. It is a really hard decision and situation. :hug:


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## CapotesMom (Apr 3, 2007)

You poor guys! Capote shadows me all the time as well but he only has me to shadow. Here's my thoughts: 

I think the LAST resort would be to get rid of Griff. He's already part of the family and that makes him a 'family' dog...even if he likes one member better than the other. I liked my mom better than my lil brother when I was growing up..  

With Griff biting him and not allowing Alec to take him for walks, it just sounds like Griff thinks he's the more dominant of the two of them..and there's the problem. One thing I learned when training capote is to always think on the dogs level..because they can't think on ours. Here's what I see with Griff; he's grown up (so far) knowing you're the alpha dog.. your mom and what you says goes. And he respects that and loves you for it..so where you go..what you say is what counts. Your husband and son are just other members of the pack either equal or below him in rank..and that's what needs to change. If you do a test with your husband (probably not your son cause he might get nipped) it's a good way to see where he thinks he is in the pack. Capote won't let ANYone touch his treats if he's given one. If the cat gets within a 3 foot radius he growls and goes after him. But if I go and take his treat away he lets me have it; because he knows who's boss. Aside from having your son and husband feed him, work on having them train him too..and that's where the patience is going to have to come in because guys aren't as patient. Have them teach him the leave it and drop it command, and then pulling away his treats. If and when he doesn't get upset at them doing this he can have the treat back. If however he growls when your husband tries to take away his treat, have your husband remove it and don't give it back to him until later. Capote LOVES dried chicken strips and bully sticks..I think those two things are easiest to train with when you're trying to take away food because they're easier to take away. 

Also try having Alec always with treats. Once Griff sees that Alec is the guy who always has the munchies, then why wouldn't he want to be with Alec?? Same with your husband. Have them work on training with them..basic commands..nothing silly. If he's still sleeping in your bed then you should definately crate train or having him on a small bed by yours.. if a dog sleeps with you he considers you an equal. If he sleeps away or beneath you then you're showing him you're in control. Maybe have him try sleeping in Alec's room with him if you start making progress with walking and training; that way he realizes that Alec is above him too in rank..because he controls where Griff sleeps as well; ie not in bed with him. The biggest thing is getting Griff to realize that not only are you the alpha in the pack, but so are the other two members of your family; that's when he'll become the family pet. 

As for getting another dog..that's dicey. I don't think you should add a second dog into the mix until you get Griff situated..cause then not only do you have one dog to train, but two. I have no doubt that Griff will love having another dog around..it's another playmate. But a new puppy would be learning from Griff as Griff is the older of the two.. therefore all the habits that Griff has the new dog is more likely to pick up on. 

Just my thoughts. Hope it helps!! I want a second pup but I know the first thing I have to do is teach capote how to stop pooing on the kitchen floor!! UGH it's irritating as heck..he'll hold it until I go to the shower or blowdry my hair or leave in general..and then he'll go. Even if I've let him out 5 times before. Lil sh*t...no pun intended.


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## RikiDaisyDixie (Apr 15, 2008)

*HRI has folks who know how to help!*

One of HRIs jobs is to help owners work with their dogs so they can keep them! Please contact HRI, there are folks there who know exactly what you are going through and have experience helping people with this breed.

There was a family going through something very similar to you not so long ago, and HRI was able to assist the family and work with them so they could keep their dog and make things work out for the family.

My daughter was seven when we first got Riki, and he did growl at her. My trainer made sure I nipped that in the bud right away. We ate first, the dogs next. Riki also has to go out of the door after she does.

They do look back when she walks them...looking for me. I am their leader, but they do walk for her. They growled at my husband once for trying to pick them up to take them to a different room from me...and both of us growled back at them!

I have to say at first I was so scared that Alana would lose them that I wasn't very allowing of her to take care of them...and for good reason. She does feed them though.

They do wait for me at the top of the stairs while I am gone, but they also play with Perry and Alana if they are engaged. They would go home with just about anyone...but I do think that I am their alpha.

HRI can help.


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## RikiDaisyDixie (Apr 15, 2008)

*An excellent havanese trainer....*

Paul helps out HRI and has fostered a few "tough" havanese pooches with aggression issues. He would be someone great for you to talk to:

http://www.dogsbestfriendofcentralflorida.com/index.htm

He does dog training for all types of dogs, but he has havanese of his own and they are near and dear to his heart. Good luck.


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## CapotesMom (Apr 3, 2007)

:clap2: ..good suggestion about the HRI! Also about the growling thing.. Their moms do that when they're babies so they learn whats right and wrong.. I've been doing that since day one with capote.. he stops whatever he does as soon as I growl. To do it right it hurts your voice..but after a while you get used to it.


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Linda,

Thank you so much. That's a great idea. I will contact them right away.

As for Alec and treats, Alec can take anything away from Gryff at anytime. There have been times when Gryff has put something in his mouth and Alec has reached right in to take it out. That has never been a problem. The reason Alec got nipped the other day (and mind you, it was a nip, not a full out bleeding take off your finger type of bite) was because I was outside and Gryff wasn't. He's protectve of me.

Getting rid of him really isn't an option at all. I love him too much and Alec does too. Alec would be heartbroken. I simply want Gryff to WANT to spend time with the rest of my family. I am going to start crating Gryff again at night, but in Alec's room. I'll make sure Alec is the one to release him from the crate, etc.

The thing that makes this even more difficult is that Alec is in school/camp all day long while I work from home. I'm right here with Gryff all the time. It's really no wonder he's attached to me.


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## CaseysMom (Jun 10, 2008)

mybella said:


> It sounds like a case for the Dog Whisper.


I have a similar situation with Casey in that she has definitely bonded with me. However, she is still loving and sweet with everyone else, it is just that given the choice, she will always actively choose me. DH gets a little upset that she will not stay downstairs with him and watch tv (unless he bribes her with 'chippies').

With regards to the biting, well that sounds serious. I have only recently begun watching the Dog Whisperer, with Cesar Millan, which is on the National Geographic channel here in my part of Canada. I can't urge you enough to watch it. After one episode, I totally 'got it' with regards to idea 'pack mentality' -- in particular the power and influence of 'pack leader'. I was so impressed I ran out and bought the book "Cesar's Way", and I have also purchased a few DVD's which I am waiting for. You can check out his website: http://www.cesarmillaninc.com/

Cesar Millan has taken on some of the most difficult, agressive dogs including pit bulls, rottweilers and german shepherds. His theories and methods are truly amazing.


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

I like the HRI idea, could offer some excellent help.
How about a cat? They could chase each other and tire Gryff out??


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Right now, Gryff is nice and quiet in his crate...in Alec's room! No kidding. Alec took him out potty tonight and I helped Alec get Gryff in his crate. Not bad. 

I brought Gryff to go pick up Alec from camp. Gryff is always excited to see people and have them pet him. I always hear from people commenting on how calm he is for such a young dog. He ran to Alec when he saw him from across the field. He is such a hard dog to figure out. Knucklehead.


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## CapotesMom (Apr 3, 2007)

lol..he probably just has his moments of needing to be near someone at certain times. Maybe the time he nipped Alec when he was watching you wasn't because he wanted to necessarily near YOU but near what you were DOing..lol. If capote isn't in the center of the action he freaks out..jumping against the gate...barking at he delivery guy bringing the pizza...he has to be RIGHT there..inspecting everything and making sure it meets his approval..


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang (May 21, 2007)

ivyagogo said:


> ...Gryff is 100% totally about me and me alone. He will have almost nothing to do with my husband or my son. ... My family feels cheated, as though they don't have a dog at all.
> 
> What do you think would happen if we got another dog? I am concerned that Gryff may get jelous and turn violent towards it or my son...
> 
> ...


I would say hold off on a second dog until Gryff is either a long-time solid, sound family member or you've placed him in a more appropriate home.

If your family is determined to keep him, then you all have to stick to a solid set of retraining rules indefinitely to make sure Gryff truly understands his place in your pack. YOU have to be consistent about NOT babying him or giving him too much attention/affection. I think this is the hardest part...you withholding attention from a creature that obviously adores you. However, if you don't go along with the plan then Gryff will end up paying the price.

This week he nipped Alec. Make no mistake, Gryff was telling Alec to back down. Next time it could be a visitor or stranger and then the outcome will be out of your hands. That's darn dangerous for Gryff.

I'm sorry you guys are having this problem, and I truly hope all turns out well for Gryff.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Ivy,

Im sorry to hear this is still a problem  I had thought this was nipped in the butt, but I guess Gryff has his stages with this, or doggie-bi-polar-ness, or perhaps it is protective behavior. You've already gotten some great suggestions, and getting a trainer involved certainly won't hurt matters.

I do think Gucci is way more into ME than anyone else, but she does get excited to see the kids and I have seen her reject them (my stepkids rather than my 3) a few times, not biting, but running away from them to find me, of course...my stepkids put her in the pool when I wasn't out there and almost drowned her..but thats a WHOLE other story that I won't go into. SO I do think in some ways they give Gucci a reason to be leary of them, they are more 'hyper', I guess is a good word than my 3 older kids. Is Alec an energetic kid? I'm just wondering if its more self-preservation? But no matter what is causing it, you still have to get to the bottom of it.

Now, on getting another dog. That's a tough call, Some people I know report their 2nd dog really helps their 1st dog behave better, and the 1st dog learns new (better) habits from the new dog, but then there's always the chance that it could be the other way around, and they follow Gryff's rules, which need to become YOUR rules, and maybe Gryff is just in that teenage stage of testing his boundries right now and seeing what he can get away with and he must still think he is higher in the pack than Alec  But I see you are changing that asap.

Kara


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Tara, Alec is high energy and the two of them love to play together. However, there have been times when Gryff just wants to chill out and Alec wants to play and that doesn't always work out. I think our situations are very similar. Gryff is usually very excited to see Alec when he comes home from school, but then he doesn't really want much to do with him.

I understand all about consistency. We had a behaviorist come about a year ago and told me all the things everyone on this thread has already said. Problem is, if Chuck is too busy to take Gryff out and Alec doesn't want to, then I am forced to do it and we are back at square one. You get what you give, I suppose. I am trying to really enforce it this go-round. Alec has been very good at feeding, walking (dragging), etc. Gryff slept all night in his crate in Alec's room. I woke Alec up at 6:00 to open the crate and take Gryff out. I have been going out with them, just hanging back while Alec holds the leash. A perfect stranger could come into my house and put Gryff on a leash and take him for a walk, but he doesn't like going out with Alec. Anyway, we are working on it and I'll keep you all posted.


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## Esperanita (Jul 12, 2008)

good buddy said:


> Mine are like yours. They love people! They are good with my DH and my son and would go home with so many different people, I need to keep a close eye on them!


Cuba is only 14 weeks, but I can't take him on a walk without him trying to cuddle up to some new person. He is definitely more popular than me! In fact, one of my neighbors will sit on the pavement and play with him. All this when I'm trying to go for a walk...


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## brandy (Jun 12, 2007)

reading this thread I had to chime in that I agree getting another dog isnt the answer. I dont know all of Gryff's history but from what Im getting is that he hasnt been taught his place in the pack.' That's not the dogs fault it's the owners. Im not trying to be mean jush honest. Have you ever herd the phrase about how stubborn mules are? Well they arent stubborn they are just waiting for their owners to figure out what they are doing wrong. Dog is last, bottom line. The members of the family that he thinks are lower than him need to start being in control of him and you cant run to Gryff's aide and it's so important that if something goes wrong you show support for Alec and your husband not the dog. Just like little kids testing their parents to see if they are united or if they can play one of them or both. 

Weather it's a nip or a breaks the skin, it's aggressive behaviour that is not OK and he should have been repremanded for it and certainly can not be trusted until this is completely under contol. 

You sound like you really love him and it's great your willing to get some help with how to train him. I really hope you all are able to work it out.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Ivy, I wonder if with Alec being such an active kid , if some of his quick movements are making Gryff nervous, that could be part of the problem. 
Lily does not like people "in her space - too close your face" Those are her "limits" to us and we respect that. She has never nipped or bitten when her "space" is invaded but she will bark & back off! Fast movements make some dogs very nervous. And if Scott is too busy to take him out, or feed him, that is probably why he has not bonded with him. Gryff is such a great dog, and such a cutie -I hope you are able to find the root cause of all this, and help him be a great comfortable member of the family.


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

We have been doing really well the past few days. Alec has been putting him in his crate at night and taking him out in the morning. The crate is in his room now. Alec has been walking him (I come out with him) and he has been feeding him. I've been bringing Gryff with me to pick Alec up from camp and they have been riding in the back seat together. I have limited my snuggling with Gryff, which is incredibly hard for me.

I honestly don't feel like we've been doing anything wrong. I've had dogs in the past and they always just loved everybody in the house. There were no crates. There was no make sure you eat before the dog. There was no go through doors before the dog. It was simple and my dogs loved everybody. Gryff is just very very attached to me.

The biting incident really wasn't this huge big deal. He didn't rip Alec's arm off or anything like that. He didn't even break the skin. Chuck and I were outside. Alec was inside. He tried to comfort Gryff when all Gryff wanted was to be where I was and was stressed out. I realize he should never, ever do such a thing, but it wasn't get rid of the dog material. He isn't vicious to Chuck or Alec. He doesn't growl anymore and hasn't in a long time. 

My only wish is for him to like my family as much as he likes the cable installer or the woman walking down the street.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I totally get what you are saying, and I wish there was some easy fix. The only thing I can think of, is that Gryff has his guard up around Alex, for whatever reason. I think Gucci is the same way with my twin stepdaughters, but she won't challenge them, ie. growl/bite, she will RUN AWAY and hide under the couch if she has to. Now, these two kids are likely to try to dress her in barbie clothes and be clutzy in the process, maybe pulling her hair too much or something like that, so I really think its more self-preservation than it is just "dislike" for the twins, and probably so with Gryff.

Have you tried getting Alex to really 'exaggerate' his happy feelings around Gryff? As Cesar would say, exude more calm/confidence around Gryff? These dogs are UBER sensitive, IMO and pick up on our emotions, and if Alex is a little bit scared that Gryff will be a brat, then Gryff does pick up on that and maybe misreads it as fear.

Kara


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Kara, yes. We are working on that now. He finally understands that taking Gryff out to potty means talking nicely with him and not just dragging him by the leash and not paying attention to him. It seems to be working out well.


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## Judy A (Jan 13, 2007)

Your love and dedication to Gryff and making him fit into the family is very evident! It shouldn't be that hard, but as with our own kids, they all have different personalities and we deal with what God gave us!!! Keep up the good work and I pray Gryff will someday be a real family dog.....but as you know, he may never do that.
Our Izzy has become muich more affectionate with us since we got Doc. She actually comes to us now and will sleep on our laps. Both our dogs favor me, but they also love my DH and DS, so we don't have the problems you do with that issue, but having two has made Izzy less "standoff-ish".....it also gives her something else to focus on besides us! They always have each other.....


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Ivy, Gryff sounds a lot like my Jasper. Except that he seems to have more energy. Jasper has been described to me as an Omega dog, that thinks he has to take the roll of an Alpha and that makes him very nervous and insecure. We are trying to convince him to just relax that we have it all covered. It is an ongoing task, if we slip up and get lazy he redzone at the mail again. I agree it sounds like you are doing everything you can, and believe me I know consistency is great until something comes up...

Given that, The one thing that stuck out in this thread to me was Alec dragging Gryff on their walks. Is it possible that Gryff just isn't old enough to offer Gryff the security he thinks he needs on walks? My boys are my first dogs ever, so perhaps some one with more knowledge could pipe in here, but is it possible that by putting some one as young as Alec in the alpha role that he can't succeed in, ie making gryff feel secure on walks, would that cause more harm than good. Not to say that Alec can't assert himself as Alpha in all other ways. 

I commend you Ivy. I know it is hard to not have the happy go lucky Hav that we read about. And it is so clear that you are determined to make it work and can't bare the thought of re-homing Gryff. I know I have thought from time to time if Jasper would be happier with a family that just never stopped going, someone who took him on hikes and did agility, took him camping etc, as my boy just seems to be bored with life (not from lack of our trying mind you-- he gets 2 mile walks and goes with us on vacations, it is just never enough for him) But I can't bear the thought. So we figure out more things to do with him to brighten his little life. 

another dog... we thought another dog would help with Jasper. and it did for a while as Jasper put all his attention on protecting Cash, but then Cash grew up and is a more balanced dog than Jasper and now Jasper feels jobless. If I had it to do over again... from what I can tell from who Jasper navigates too, I would have selected a very gentle smaller girl for Jas to protect and nurture. But hind site is perfect, picking a puppy is not.... 

If you do choose to get another Hav (and I am not sure I would do it again) I would really work with a breeder. let them meet Gryff and if their willing spend some time in your house to see the dynamics... to try and find a perfect fit. 

good luck, sorry for the novel, I just thought I might be able to provide some insight.


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Excellent thoughts Missy. And Ivy, you're so dedicated to Gryff - I really want this to work for you. Perhaps it's just time until Alec is old enough. I know he loves Gryff too and has worked very hard to have a good relationship with him. Hugs.


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Thanks everyone. Alec took Gryff out this morning and it was a much better experience for Gryff. He didn't turn around every second to make sure I was standing there. He also went much more willingly. I'll keep you all posted. I do agree with what most of you are saying. I want to get Gryff more into the family before I think about getting another dog.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

You know Ivy, we would LOVE for you to bring another pup to the playdates - but I think it is a good choice not to get another until Gryff comes around. He seemed at the last playdate as a fearful, shy guy (hence the garden hiding) but this time I think he will be so much better since he has been playing may other Dogs. Maybe this weekend he will also get more comfortable around more younger kids. Cant wait to see you guys!


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Laurie - he LOVES young kids. I brought him to Alec's camp today withe 150 kids. They were swarming him for an hour and he was very happy to play and be petted by all of them. The only problem is with Alec. I have to say, things have been going very well the past day or two since moving Gryff in with Alec. Gryff is better with Alec and Chuck. Right now, Gryff is not sitting in my office with me, but playing with Alec down the hall. Absolutely unheard of!


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

It sounds like Gryff is jealous of Alec and having to share your attention. Maybe by keeping them together more, Gryff will see it as them being equal and not be as jealous.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Oh Ivy, I really feel your pain. My un-educated guess is that Gryff really needs his space and feels threatened sometimes. If, by chance, while you and DH were in the backyard and Gryff was already upset about that, Alec tried to comfort him he probably got in his space at the wrong time. That doesn't make it ok, however. He can never bite, even a little. He also might be afraid of Alec and his quick moves. Quick moves and space needs and fear are all red flags. Alec needs to understand this too.
The other day we were walking the dogs and some small kids wanted to pet them. Naturally one of them HAD TO just keep jetting her hand in to pet and then pulling it back real fast if a dog looked at her. WHY DO KIDS HAVE TO DO THAT? Really, sometimes kids need to be taught how to react to a dog, lol.
There has been so much good advise here. I am glad things are getting better. Please keep us posted.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

> The other day we were walking the dogs and some small kids wanted to pet them. Naturally one of them HAD TO just keep jetting her hand in to pet and then pulling it back real fast if a dog looked at her. WHY DO KIDS HAVE TO DO THAT? Really, sometimes kids need to be taught how to react to a dog, lol.


Yep! lol I think sometimes its easier to train the kid than the dog. I've noticed many differences in how Gucci reacts with my 7 kids, she is much more 'trusting' of the calm ones. She will even let them carry her around on her back like a baby (which she only let me do for a long time)

With the more 'energetic' ones, she's much more....'guarded' at times, shes' still happy to see them all, does the happy dance, etc. but then goes into self preservation mode at times.

But with 7 kids, I'd hope she DOES have some Self preservation skills, you HAVE to in my house!!!!  ound:


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Hey Ivy - I don't want you hanging out here as the only one with a dog who nips. My rescue Maltese Buddy is having issues again - the girls will try and pick him up and cuddle too close and he learned in his abusive first home that nipping was the way to get rid of a small child. And I'm NOT gonna give up this cute little guy - so he's going back in for more obedience training. He did well in his first class and it's like he's forgotten everything - including that all important word, "come". So I'm thinking that once he's back to a well trained dog, that we'll overcome the nipping issue again. 

And I totally understand your confusion - they'll have this fabulous relationship with the children and then out of the blue will do something that really worries you. It's been a year now with Buddy, we had the problem solved and I just think for some small dogs that they learned early on that nipping was acceptable pack behavior for small humans. As much as we want to say the dog who nips has to go, when they are actually living in your home, you see it so much differently. So just know, we're going through the same thing and perhaps that's why I talk so much "tougher". I think emotionally I know that I have to stay a bit distanced from the situation so that if something does get serious that I have the guts to follow through and find him a new home. Although that would make me so sad cause I love the little guy. But having had my worst dog year ever last year in having to say goodbye to two puppies and one dog, I'm probably a bit thicker skinned than I've ever been before. 

Most of all, I just want to assure you that you're not the only one with dog nipping issues.


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