# dog training problem or child rearing issue?



## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

The following post was made on a homeschool list I am on and I would like your recommendation on how to reply. 

Personally I have a problem with the part that says " I have told her over and over". I was raised that when the over and over telling doesn't work that another punishment will be give AKA spanking.

THANK YOU
Katrina



Hey everyone, I thought I would ask you all because I have tried
everything I can think of. 
I have a 2 year old spayed female lab. She's a big baby (in fact that
is her name, lol) and she was originally an outdoor dog but she had
pups before I thought she was able to, so we had her spayed and what
was originally an indoor recovery turned into her staying inside full
time. She's now 100% indoor dog and part of the family since summer
with no problems.

Now, I only have 1 problem with Baby but it is one that could end up
finding her a new home.  
My daughter is 5 and just wants to lay on the dog. She wants to lay
beside her and give her big hugs and kisses all of the time. She
squishes her and bounces her and all of the things that 5 year olds do
to their pets (yes, I think she's even worn the princess dress a time
or two). Baby is very tolerant, but sometimes it's just too much.
She's tired or frustrated and wants to be left alone and with give a
warning growl. I have heard a true growl and it doesn't sound
anything like this, it's more like the growl she'd give her pups when
she was weening hem. Like she's just telling my daughter "enough!" If
I thought she'd bite, I wouldn't be writing this, because she would be
gone.

I have told my daughter OVER AND OVER to leave her alone, especially
if she's trying to sleep. She listens about as well as most 5 year
olds, lol. She needs reminded a lot. I watch a lot of Dog Whisperer
so I've tried to have the kids "bite" her neck and give the noise. So
far it's not working. And the kids are both an active part in
disciplining her (like my daughter will tell her to get out of the
chair and the dog listens/obeys). 

I need advice or tips! My hubby has warned that one more time and
she's gone. I know she would not hurt my daughter but if it doesn't
stop, I would have to agree with him that she should go to another
home. PLEASE HELP! 



Personally I have a problem with the part that says " I have told her over and over". I was raised that when the over and over telling doesn't work that another punishment will be give AKA spanking.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Yep, from another (once homeshooling) mom, I agree. It's time to step up the daughter's discipline until it is worth her while to obey her mother. If it is a spanking she needs and that works, then that is what she needs. If she'll pay more attention to priviledges being taken away, then that is what needs to happen. The daughter needs to learn that what her mom says, she means.


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

Five years is old enough to listen AND obey!


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## Tritia (Nov 17, 2007)

Wow, that's really a tough one. When it comes to kids not listening, I'm usually not much help. I have no clue how I've become so blessed, but I have four of THE most well behaved, obedient boys you'd ever want to meet. Sure, they have their moments and forget little rules. But, even my 4 yr old only takes a couple times to tell him not to do something. We also reward for good behavior as well as taking things away. Not so sure about the spanking route. As in 12 yrs of parenting, and 4 kids..I've never spanked one of them yet. Ever. And never plan to. It's just the way we choose to parent.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Sounds like you were blessed with compliant kids, Tritia! :thumb: My brother's kids were that way, along with my youngest two. You could talk and "reason" with them--it was wonderful!! But, my oldest was another story altogether! Now she tells me about her oldest, "oh, no, Mom! He's strong willed like me! He just won't listen or obey!" Some kids have to have a reason to comply--pleasing Mom just isn't enough. 

For my daughter, however, spanking (which I did try,) was basically ineffective. I had to figure out what made her tick and use that for punishment. Like, she loved to talk to anyone and would gesture wildly while she did. So, her punishment ended up being sitting on a chair, in a room by herself where she couldn't talk to anyone, while sitting on her hands. It's the only thing that got her attention.

But, if this five-year old's mom doesn't have control over her daughter soon, homeschooling isn't going to work, either. It will go beyond the poor dog being manhandled and pushed around, and only get worse as time goes on.

Poor dog! I hate to see animals mis-used!


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

Spanking didn't work with my children either but taking privilages away sure does. I was just RAISED in a home that spanking happened in. Please do not miss understand my previous post. I was not trying to imply that she be spanked just disciplened.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

I don't think the 5-year old daughter should be allowed to mistreat the dog. Even though the dog is patient and hasn't bitten yet, children can push even a "good" dog to that point.

Some kids have more trouble than others controlling their impulses. If this girl just *cannot *control herself reliably, then for the safety of the _dog and the child_, the dog will be better off in another home.

My concern is that this situation would continue, without improvement, and the dog would eventually snap at the girl and then be rehomed or put in a shelter, labeled as an "aggressive dog who bites children."


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

Jane said:


> I don't think the 5-year old daughter should be allowed to mistreat the dog. Even though the dog is patient and hasn't bitten yet, children can push even a "good" dog to that point.
> 
> Some kids have more trouble than others controlling their impulses. If this girl just *cannot *control herself reliably, then for the safety of the _dog and the child_, the dog will be better off in another home.
> 
> My concern is that this situation would continue, without improvement, and the dog would eventually snap at the girl and then be rehomed or put in a shelter, labeled as an "aggressive dog who bites children."


That is exactly my fear. I tried to imply to the owner that it was a discipline issue that dogs have rights also. I just hope I didn't offend her. I fired off my reply before I thought it through. It just ran all over me that she thought this once outside dog should be totally submissive to ANYTHING her daughter did to it.


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## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

That poor dog is being tormented, in my opinion. A five year old should be able to understand and comply with no, or be sent to her room for a time-out. This mom sounds super-permissive to me, and when the inevitable escalation takes place, the poor dog will be blamed. My own children would not have gotten away with that behavior for 10 seconds. 

Have you ever watched Super Nanny? It's unbelievable to me today the lack of common sense some otherwise intelligent parents possess. Their children tyranize the house. . .


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Sounds like exactly what goes on around here. The only difference is when Gryff growls at Alec now, Alec knows that the dog wants to be left alone.

Whatever works. Getting rid of the dog, however, isn't the right answer. It's not the dog's fault.


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## Eva (Jun 20, 2008)

Being a parent of a small child on the high end of the energy spectum I can understand the delimma (sp?).
My 4 yr old son is a very sweet little guy but he has a really hard time controlling him impulses. 
We've worked with him from the time that he was very small on slowing down and I have to literally hold his head in my hands at times to get him to focus on me long enough so that he can understand what I'm asking of him. 
That being said I do not allow him to torment the animals. 
Yes, it is a lot of work at times but it's not fair to them to have him tackling them just because it's easier for me to ignore the behavior. 
What's worked the best for him is "Time out's" from the animal...if I have to ask him more than once to stop chasing, grabbing at, or being to rough with Todd he is "Grounded" from him until he has calmed himself down. 
Sometimes it takes a few minutes and other times he's not allowed to play with the dog (or cats) for the entire day. When he feels (I leave this up to him) that he can control himself again he apologizes to the pet and is allowed to be near them again. 
There are boundaries that just aren't negotiable...I think that the little girl needs to learn some control and be given boundaries by her parents.


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

This is my reply to her and her reply back to me. Please excuse my misspellings I was very upset with her original post.


Autumn

I have three dogs and two children however my children are older than 5. It sounds like you are doing fine teaching the dog. Dogs have rights also and when she gives that warning growl your daughter needs to STOP like she would if she were getting close to a fire are stove eye. I realize it is hard with her being young but 5 isn'it so young that she can not understand hot/cold so she should understand that a growl means stop. I am not trying to sound harsh but the training goes both ways. Good luck and God bless.


Thank you so much for your help and input! I never saw it as a thing to train my daughter with but I can see that now. It's amazing how you never realize something until someone sees it for you.  
I'm going to have to work with her more to respect her boundaries and recognize the signs. 
Thanks!


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Ack! Parents like this really annoy me for some reason. How can she not have thought that maybe this was something that she had to teach her DAUGHTER and not the dog? I mean, I'm glad she asked for help and everything, but I sort of feel like this should have been something she should have thought of in the first place. DH and I plan on starting a family sometime in the future and we are BOTH decided to be very very strict about teaching our kids the proper way to treat a pet and to have them supervised at all times. This is a no-brainer to me. If the kid misbehaves, no more playing with the dog and/or punish the kid in whatever way works best, be it grounding, time out whatever works for you... it's as simple as that.


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

Lina said:


> Ack! Parents like this really annoy me for some reason. How can she not have thought that maybe this was something that she had to teach her DAUGHTER and not the dog? I mean, I'm glad she asked for help and everything, but I sort of feel like this should have been something she should have thought of in the first place. DH and I plan on starting a family sometime in the future and we are BOTH decided to be very very strict about teaching our kids the proper way to treat a pet and to have them supervised at all times. This is a no-brainer to me. If the kid misbehaves, no more playing with the dog and/or punish the kid in whatever way works best, be it grounding, time out whatever works for you... it's as simple as that.


I agree completely.


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## triona (Dec 22, 2008)

Hi,

Not sure about what is going on because I only have one posting to base this on. 

I have two children ages 26 and 21. I have been a teacher/speech therapist for 30 years. I have taught in regular education classrooms, special day classrooms and therapeutic settings with children from preschool age to adolescents. All I can say is, not obeying is NEVER an option. I have never struck a child or an animal, my own or anyone else's. And they always obey. There is NO OTHER OPTION. I think the mindset of the parent/teacher is the most important component here.

Sorry to be so nebulous. But as a parent/teacher you need to be completely clear about who is in charge. Is it you, the child or the animal? Children need directions and boundaries to feel safe. When I work with children I begin immediately in a gentle but clear way to set the simple limits and expectations. 
Rule One - never hurt anyone or anything (including yourself)
As the adult I own the room and I make it safe and enjoyable for the children. We become a team working in harmony and mutual respect.

Work on this now before they are teenagers.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

People amaze me, they train the dog but don't train their children?!?!? What's up with that? I'm constantly amazed at how badly behaved some children are. I have 3, there are FAR from perfect, but I can take them anywhere and they know what's expected of them because I tell them before we go. They're now 17, 13 and 11 and I'm quite proud of them all. We all watch Super Nanny and they tell us they're glad we don't let them get away with the stuff we see on TV. Even after visiting friends' homes they'll come home to tell us about some of the things that go on.

That little girl needs to learn boundaries, NOW! If she's treating the dog like that and not listening to the mother then they have bigger problems than the one she mentioned. I feel badly for the dog and the child, the mother needs to get her act together and be the parent. I'll be friend with my kids when they're adults, right now they need a mom.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

*I got this from a friend *

Must rehome due to new addition to family "After two long years of being on a waiting list for an agility dog, we have been notified by the breeder that, at long last, our number has come up and 
&#8230;WE ARE HAVING A PUPPY!!!

We must get rid of our children IMMEDIATELY because we just know how time consuming our new little puppy is going to be and it just wouldn't be fair to the children. Since our little puppy will be arriving on Monday we MUST place the children this weekend! They are described as:

One male - His name is Tommy, Caucasian (English/Irish mix), light blonde hair, blue eyes. Four years old. Excellent disposition. He doesn't bite. Temperament tested. Does have problems with peeing directly in the toilet. Has had Chicken Pox and is current on all shots. Tonsils have already been removed. Tommy eats everything, is very clean, house trained & gets along well with others. Does not run with scissors and with a little training he should be able to read soon.

One female - Her name is Lexie, Caucasian (English/Irish mix), strawberry blonde hair, green eyes quite freckled. Two years old. Can be surly at times. Non-biter, thumb sucker. Has been temperament tested but needs a little attitude adjusting occasionally. She is current on all shots, 
tonsils out, and is very healthy & can be affectionate. Gets along well with other little girls & little boys but does not like to share her toys and therefore would do best in a one child household. She 
is a very quick learner and is currently working on her house training - shouldn't take long at all.

We really do LOVE our children so much and want to do what's right for them; that is why we contacted a rescue group. But we simply can no longer keep them. Also, we are afraid that they may hurt our new puppy. I hope you understand that ours is a UNIQUE situation and we have a real 
emergency here!!! They MUST be placed in rescue by Sunday night at the latest or we will be forced to drop them off at the orphanage or along some dark, country road. Our priority now has to be our new puppy."

Sounds just as ridiculous and ignorant when you have to "rehome" your pet, doesn't it?


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

Sure does Amanda! Loved this.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

ound: Amanda, loved it. I feel like that some days! :suspicious:


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## triona (Dec 22, 2008)

Amanda,

LOL 
I can probably pick up your two adorable kids on Monday, but Tuesday would be better!!!

I enjoyed reading your post.

Triona


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

Cute Amanda. ound:


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

triona said:


> Hi,
> 
> Not sure about what is going on because I only have one posting to base this on.
> 
> ...


 Triona

I do NOT know this woman/family personally she just posted a message on another forum board where I am a member. Please understand it is NOT me personally. I understand your position and quite agree.

Katrina


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Katrina,
I think your response to the lady was good, not pushy at all considering what was at stake. And, it sounds like your reply to her was well received and will make a difference! Yeah! Good for you that you cared enough to step out on a limb and stick up for the dog--and for the case of discipline in children!

I, also, don't understand how some parents don't seem to have a clue about the importance of discipline and self-control....


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## marb42 (Oct 19, 2008)

Amanda, I loved your post and it made me laugh! Katrina, your response was very good. I hope that woman is able to enforce some discipline and get things under control. It sounds like all she does is tell her daughter to stop without following through with giving her time-outs, taking away things, etc.

Gina


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## KristinFusco (Jun 5, 2007)

Call in the SuperNanny! This is a perfect case


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## DAJsMom (Oct 27, 2006)

I think your response was great! Dogs are animals and as such can be dangerous and unpredictable. Even a nice dog can be pushed too far, and a large dog can do serious damage to a child! My brother was bitten in the face by a neighbor's Saint Bernard when he was about two years old. He was lucky not to lose an eye or something, and has scars on his face to this day. It was a nice dog I think, but it thought my brother was trying to steal it's food. My brother thought he was trying to feed it. No adult was watching at the time. 
As the parent of a pretty challenging 7 year old and owner of two havanese and previously a lab, we always work at pet-child relations from both sides. The kids need to respect the dogs, and the dogs need to be well-behaved as well. We have never tolerated the kids being unkind to the dogs and expect them to not just be kind, but understand and respect the dogs' limits- no cornering the dogs, no going into their crates, etc. If they disobey the rules, they get disciplined. if people can't provide the supervision that kids need around dogs, or any pets, they should find the pet a safer place to live.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Tell her to read this and to forget about Cesar's way. 
A non-profit organization dedicated to Dog Bite Prevention

The 2 Most Important Things to Teach Your Kids...

1. Dog's Do Not Like Hugs and Kisses - we cannot stress this strongly enough. Say it over to yourself 1000 times. It doesn't matter if your dog is a Newfoundland or a Yorkie. Don't think that your dog is an exception to this - because you are wrong and you are setting your child and your dog up for potential tragedy. Teach your kids not to hug or kiss the dog on the face. Hugging the family dog or face-to-face contact are common causes of bites to the face. Teach your kids to scratch the dog on the chest or on the side of the neck - most dogs do enjoy this. If your child is a toddler or does not follow instructions, then do not allow access to the dog unless you have your hands on the dog. Click to see why this is so important - part 1 - part 2.

2. Be a Tree if a Strange Dog Approaches - teach kids to be a tree - click here to see how. Trees are boring and the dog will eventually go away. This works for strange dogs and even your own dog if he is getting too frisky or becomes aggressive. All children should learn to be a tree and to do this when a strange dog approaches, their own dog is getting too frisky or any dog is bothering them. Dogs are excited and stimulated by movement and will chase a child that runs. The erratic movements and high pitched sounds that children make can cause some dogs to view them as prey and a chasing or wrestling game can suddenly become deadly. Do not allow children to play rough games with dogs.

Tell her to visit the site that this info comes from http://www.doggonesafe.com/


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## EstrellaVila (Nov 30, 2007)

Amanda, that story was hilarious!

Katrina I think your response was appropriate. I just cant believe a parent would think it is all the dog's fault... kind of annoys me. 

Discipline is a tough one, but that girl was FIVE. My mom had us trained so good we would be scared just to get that look (she never once spanked us, dont know how we all got so fearful). I was thinking about clicker training my kids, hell of a lot easier ound:


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## RikiDaisyDixie (Apr 15, 2008)

*Poor family rules and boundaries*

I am also a homeschooler, although the last two years Alana has been in a multi-age classroom because she is an only child. (I also have seen other public school crazy moms too!)

We were at a museum with our homeschooling group, one child was touching master paintings and we were almost kicked out. The mom didn't want to stifle his creativity and his curiosity! Good grief.

Another child was piling up sand at the end of the sliding board so no children could use it. The children at HS park day were asking him kindly to find another place. This didn't work and the children approached his parent, who told them that homeschoolers should work things out themselves and not get parents involved.

The frustrated kids told the mom they had tried to work it out, and the only resort from that point on would be to get to violence which they didn't want to do. One of our craziest moms said it must be his karma to work out. What about the karma of the parents?

It is a parenting issue...my favorite book is called the Dog Trainers Guide to Parenting. Some parents believe in complete hands off, which would be fine if they choose this at home, but in community or with pets who have no voice...that seems to be unfair to all. What we do affects others.

Remember the song, bless the beasts and the children...light their way for the darkness surrounds them, keep them safe...

Okay one last story while I am venting...a public school mom noticed that her husband was way too harsh with their young child. She didn't want to get involved because she didn't want to be co-dependent! Yikes! Talk about lack of personal responsibility. Codependency is doing for others what they cannot do for themselves (meaning adults), not pets and children. This is why they are called dependent children!

I held a brownie meeting in my house. When the parents came to pick the girls up they were running around the house screaming. Their parents said nothing. I told the girls that this was my home and it was not acceptable to treat me and my home with such disrespect. I told them that if they wished to be invited back, they must stop screaming and running immediately. Their moms thanked me. We just cannot get them to do anything. Well, not saying anything or threatening but not following up sure doesn't get results.

Okay, I'm done venting. I was a therapist for many years and I won't even get into those stories. I just wonder what will happen to these creative children when they are older. Mine at 12 is already testing limits and she WAS raised with boundaries.

No dog should be abused or sat on EVER. Even the Brownie Girl Scouts have a good pet pledge.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

Some PEOPLE should be spayed and neutered! :biggrin1:


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## RikiDaisyDixie (Apr 15, 2008)

*If we did common sense health testing...*

some humans might not be breeding...

Seriously though, we have classes for drivers education that is mandatory...but not parenting or teaching life skills.

How many folks get married and have no clue what the rules are? How many of us had children and just winged it? I did a lot of research before I got my havanese! It was easy to admit I didn't know what I was doing.

I remember when my mother-in-law left to go back home when Alana was a baby...and I cried. Now what do I do!


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

I cried on the way home from the hospital with the first one, I couldn't believe they'd let me leave with him and thought sure one of us would be dead before the night was over! Thank God my mother came home with me!


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