# Color Dilute Alopecia in blue pigment



## Janizona

Results are in on the first reported blue Havanese with Color Dilute Alopecia. This is horrible news for our breed! When we started the SA (Sebaceous Adenitis) study, there were a LOT of folks that thought it was unnecessary and a waste of money since it was so rare. Surprise folks, SA is not rare. Now CDA shows up and I am for one very frightened for our breed if this spreads. 

Someone shared this (not attached-too large) pdf with me today. Allowing blue pigment into our standard has obviously been very controversial and this new information is IMPORTANT for folks to know about. Some people have gone as far as to run ads in other publications in favor of allowing blue pigment. Hopefully the "other side" will also be heard on this issue and all the facts will be shared. 

I have not been shy about sharing my feelings on allowing blue pigment, I think everyone knows I am against it 150%. We have made great strides in the research for SA and I hope that we don't find ourselves fighting another skin disease with CDA in the blue pigment dogs.

Blue pigment is currently a disqualification in our breed and it should remain that way. Breeders that breed away from our standard ON PURPOSE should be reprimanded. I don't care who you are or how long you have been in the breed. Its the rule we have all agreed to follow by signing the code of ethics. This is the rule we agreed to when we became members of the Havanese Club of America. No one is above the rules. 

I understand that some people want pedigree info, owner info, dog info on Sarah. Do I know the owner of Sarah? Nope. Don't know the dog either. I also don't know any dogs in the rogue "blue study" or their owners either. Doesn't matter. It's against the rules to breed them, any way you look at it. And changing the standard to fit the breeders is just wrong. Call me crazy.

Permission to cross post any where you like. It's just my opinion along with some facts.

Since 1994 - breeding to the Standard~


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## Havtahava

I have no idea who this Sarah is or what prompted you to post this, but I've always made it known that I am breeding for black pigment and will continue to do so. Yes, I have a gorgeous chocolate male available for stud (selectively), but I have no interest in breeding for brown pigment, blue pigment nor pink or purple either.


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## Janizona

Havtahava said:


> I have no idea who this Sarah is or what prompted you to post this, but I've always made it known that I am breeding for black pigment and will continue to do so. Yes, I have a gorgeous chocolate male available for stud (selectively), but I have no interest in breeding for brown pigment, blue pigment nor pink or purple either.


There are no health problems (that science is aware of) with brown pigment (bb) but the dilute of blue pigment (dd) DOES have the disease Color Dilute Alopecia associated with it in several breeds. "Sarah" was tested and confirmed to have this disease.

As some of you know, there are some breeders in the HCA that want to change the standard to allow blue pigment. I posted this to the Yahoo groups but wanted the forum to be informed on the status also.

Thanks Kimberly
J


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## mellowbo

Thank you for posting this. As a pet owner I do like to know what is happening in the Havanese world.


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## Sheri

Yes, thank you. As a pet owner who plans on adding another Hav in the coming years, I want to be up on health issues in our lovely breed, too.


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## Scooter's Family

I'm happy you posted this too as I love learning more about the breed. When people ask questions I like being able to give them an answer and the more I learn the better! I still get people who look at my dogs and say, "Hava-what?" 

The more I see dogs that shouldn't have ever been bred the more I'm interested in things like this.

Thanks for posting.


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## marjrc

Thank you for the update, Janet!


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## Julie

This is really interesting--I am glad you shared the information Janet. I remember there being some talk about the blue pigment on this forum quite a while back. It was an intriguing color and people found it rather interesting/and exciting. 

It is nice to know this kind of info even as a pet owner because we all want a healthy havanese. I for one would run from anyone promoting this color since I have your information.

Thank you.:thumb:


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## Janizona

Glad some of you found it informative.

I'm still surprised that more people aren't upset that breeders (HCA members) are promoting this color and breeding them on purpose when its against our current standard. Its a disqualification!! The push is to change the standard to allow blue pigment.


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## mellowbo

Don't we need to keep in mind that there is a difference between bluish coat and actual blue pigment? As I see it, we already have havs with bluish coats and that is ok, but blue pigment is another story?? I would not like to see blue pigment and lighter (blue???) eyes in the havs. JMHO.


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## Beamer

Janet,

What is the driving force behind these breeders wanting the blue pigment added to the standard? Is it to charge extra for a 'rare' hav? Or whats the deal?

Ryan


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## Havtahava

Ryan, unless they have openly stated their reasons why, it is probably best to ask them. For anyone else to speculate, it just starts rumors that may or may not have any bearing on the truth.

Janet, thanks for answering. I'm going to contact you off the forum to see if I can get that file from you. I'd love to read it. I'm a working vacation all week and have some free time to catch up on this one (after my riding, of course - ha!).


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## Havtahava

Carole, I meant to respond to your post as well. Yes, blue coats are very different from blue pigment. Just like in the chocolates, a brown coat does not make a chocolate dog - it's the pigment that makes them chocolate; however, a brown coat on a chocolate dog looks great, IMO.

A blue dog means it has blue pigment (not black, brown, grey or pink).


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## Janizona

Yes we are talking about blue pigment on the nose vs black. Our breed allows for any coat color as long as the nose is black, with the exception of chocolate coat dogs as they have brown pigment.


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## Janizona

Beamer said:


> Janet,
> 
> What is the driving force behind these breeders wanting the blue pigment added to the standard? Is it to charge extra for a 'rare' hav? Or whats the deal?
> 
> Ryan


I do not know why they want blue. I've heard them say things like "its in the breed so we should allow it" but there are lots of things we produce in litters and we can't just change the standard to fit our breedings. Shorthairs are also in the breed but no one is pushing to allow another coat type! Its never been allowed in our breed, going back as far as the original FCI standard from 1963.


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## Beamer

Ohhh.. I got ya. So it could be as simple as many breeders have the 'blue' in their lines and they want to be able to use all these offspring for show potential havs?

Or whatever reason. 

Ryan


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## Julie

hmmmmm......interesting.

I suppose there are views on both sides.


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## Julie

Janizona said:


> Glad some of you found it informative.
> 
> I'm still surprised that more people aren't upset that breeders (HCA members) are promoting this color and breeding them on purpose when its against our current standard. Its a disqualification!! The push is to change the standard to allow blue pigment.


I would guess here anyway,on the forum people would not know about this because they are mostly pet owners?


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## BeverlyA

Thanks for information Janet. Do you happen to have a picture of a dog with blue pigment? Is it obvious when a dog has it or do you need to see the blue next to a black dog for a comparison if it's something you're not familiar with?

I too would be interested in the PDF if you could email it to me.

Beverly


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## Janizona

BeverlyA said:


> Thanks for information Janet. Do you happen to have a picture of a dog with blue pigment? Is it obvious when a dog has it or do you need to see the blue next to a black dog for a comparison if it's something you're not familiar with?
> 
> I too would be interested in the PDF if you could email it to me.
> 
> Beverly


I think the majority of blue dogs pigment looks black until they are next to a true black and then its just off black, dusky. It can also be very obvious if its a lighter blue but this is a gray blue not really BLUE blue. 

I will try to find some pictures!


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## Janizona

*pics of blue*

Here is a girl that is blue. In the baby photo, she's on the left.


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## BeverlyA

So is there a correlation between SA and the blue pigment, or at least a possibility anyway?

When there were "blue" coated puppies presented at the Nationals 2 years ago, I had a very difficult time telling they weren't "black" until a dark black puppy was brought in for comparisons.

Might make for another interesting Nationals!

Beverly


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## Janizona

BeverlyA said:


> So is there a correlation between SA and the blue pigment, or at least a possibility anyway?
> 
> When there were "blue" coated puppies presented at the Nationals 2 years ago, I had a very difficult time telling they weren't "black" until a dark black puppy was brought in for comparisons.
> 
> Might make for another interesting Nationals!
> 
> Beverly


No relation to SA and blue pigment BUT blue pigment comes with its own horrible skin problem. Its called Color Dilution Alopecia.

http://www.petdocsoncall.com/page.asp?id=64&name=Color%20Dilution%20Alopecia

Not all breeds with blue pigment are affected.

Commonly affected breeds

* Dobermann
* Dachshund
* Great Dane
* Whippet
* Italian Greyhound
* Chow Chow
* Standard Poodle
* Miniature Pinscher
* Yorkshire Terrier
* Silky Terrier
* Chihuahua
* Boston Terrier
* Saluki
* Newfoundland
* German Shepherd Dog
* Shetland Sheepdog
* Schipperke
* Bernese Mountain Dog
* Bulldog


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## Julie

I don't think I can tell...... I must be stupid or color blind? Is it really hard to notice Janet? I mean for "pet people"? :ear:


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## Julie

Oh--when I see that list I notice the shetland sheepdog and maybe that will make more sense to me. Are those the blue merles in shelties? I have seen many of those (stunning) and yet--I know if you breed 2 blue merles you have serious trouble. In fact..a white faced sheltie without a dark spot over the eyes are blind. It is so sad.

Hopefully this isn't the same case in havanese?


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## Havtahava

BeverlyA said:


> Thanks for information Janet. Do you happen to have a picture of a dog with blue pigment? Is it obvious when a dog has it or do you need to see the blue next to a black dog for a comparison if it's something you're not familiar with?


Yes, a lot of people, _some novice breeders included_, mistake blue for black until the dogs/puppies are next to each other. Black is hard to mistake for anything else, but blue is a unique shade unto itself and can be mistaken as a black when a person doesn't watch pigment carefully.


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## Janizona

Julie said:


> I don't think I can tell...... I must be stupid or color blind? Is it really hard to notice Janet? I mean for "pet people"? :ear:


I think we have a lot more blue dogs than we realize in the breed. It can be just slightly off black or dark gray and can be hard to tell. The only for sure way to know is to have the color DNA run. Its a simple test if someone isn't sure if they have black or blue pigment.

If anyone is interested: http://www.dnacenter.com/vet/new-order-canine-coatlength.html?vphone=1-800-625-0874&vdnis=DNIS0874

The test for the blue is Coat Color Test- D Locus and cost $58


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## Janizona

Julie said:


> Oh--when I see that list I notice the shetland sheepdog and maybe that will make more sense to me. Are those the blue merles in shelties? I have seen many of those (stunning) and yet--I know if you breed 2 blue merles you have serious trouble. In fact..a white faced sheltie without a dark spot over the eyes are blind. It is so sad.
> 
> Hopefully this isn't the same case in havanese?


Merle is another gene but its not the same as our dilute dd blue gene. I've never seen it in the Havs so I haven't done any research.


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## Missy

I am one who loves the look of unique havanese, but not enough to have the breeds health jeopardized.


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## Havtahava

Missy said:


> I am one who loves the look of unique havanese, but not enough to have the breeds health jeopardized.


Missy, that is totally understood and appreciated by most. I've always been drawn to the dogs that are less common... at least until I realized there is so much unknown healthwise. Until it is proven that the outward appearance does not have health-related ties, I'm going to stick to the tried and true outward appearance. 

I think there is a reason that so many older breeds have very distinct looks while the Havanese are still all over the map. That's just my novice guess as a younger breeder though. I've been in dogs almost all my life, but only in Havanese for 6 years now and think it is best to stick with what is proven to be healthy.


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## Narwyn

For those not familiar, a blue dog is really slate grey color. It can be hard to tell on computer monitors, but most of the time in person, you would likely notice that it's not quite black.

I think our standard as it's currently written contradicts itself in regard to blues. It specifically allows all colors/combos for coat with no preference. Then it specifically disallows any pigment but black/brown. 

Now you can have a "bluish" dog, often a silvered out, that has black pigment. But a true blue dog, coat color and pigment, goes together, so how can you disallow the pigment but allow the coat color that follows?

Maybe I'm just a picky English Major though  At the end of the day a DQ is the trump card, and I've certainly finished enough Havs to know that disallowing "blue coat" would lead to some wrongfully DQd silvery dogs! But perhaps something like all coat colors with allowable pigmentation would do better...

Interesting to note that there is some evidence of health issues with the blues. I have always wondered.


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## mellowbo

When it comes to coat colors, it would be hard for me to really distinguish between a "blue" and a steel/charcoal/silver/grey. 

I have seen noses compared between black and a "smokier" black, just not as black, but I find it kinda hard to think that is a "blue". It just seemed to me to be a dog that is not pigmented as well.........

How would we ever know the difference between a border poorly pigmented dog and a blue???

Doesn't that open a can of worms to just call poor pigment "blue".???

Anyway, I know what I mean, lol.

On edit, when I look at my Lulu, she is a poor pigmented dog, not a chocolate, even though her nose is kinda dark brown.....


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## Havtahava

Narwyn said:


> I think our standard as it's currently written contradicts itself in regard to blues. It specifically allows all colors/combos for coat with no preference. Then it specifically disallows any pigment but black/brown.
> 
> Now you can have a "bluish" dog, often a silvered out, that has black pigment. But a true blue dog, coat color and pigment, goes together, so how can you disallow the pigment but allow the coat color that follows?
> 
> Maybe I'm just a picky English Major though  At the end of the day a DQ is the trump card, and I've certainly finished enough Havs to know that disallowing "blue coat" would lead to some wrongfully DQd silvery dogs! But perhaps something like all coat colors with allowable pigmentation would do better...


I don't really see a contradiction. All coat colors _are_ allowed, and you can have a variety of coat colors with any pigment: black, brown or blue. Brown pigmented dogs don't necessarily have brown coats, just as black pigmented dogs don't necessarily have black coats. Blue pigmented dogs don't necessarily have blue coats either, so it isn't really a conflict in the wording. Blue pigment isn't allowed.


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## ama0722

I am personally not a fan of any other pigment than black. I just prefer a shiny jet black nose on my Neezers 

With so many other breeds having health issues that are directly related to pigment and blue coloring, I just don't see why Havanese would want to go down this road without a lot of research first. I think for those who want blue included, the burden falls to prove there is no diseases linked to blue pigmentation. We have a wonderful breed and we should do whatever research we can to protect it.


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## mckennasedona

I guess I just don't understand the dog fancy. Are standards fluid and always changing? I would think a standard is a standard, period. If the dog doesn't fit, don't show it and don't breed it. Is blue becoming so prevelant that the standard must be revised to include it or is it that its "different" and "kinda cool". From the sounds of things on the Havanese Health list it's becoming less about the dogs and more about the sport, or perhaps breeders feel they can charge more for a unique blue dog or get more recognition for being a breeder of blues? I have no idea. Good arguements exist on both sides. 
As I said, I know little about standards of any breed. I'm just glad there are at least two who didn't meet the Havanese standard and they live with ME!! 
It's interesting to follow the discussion and to see who really contributes on an adult level to the discussion and who quickly jumps into childish name calling. It's fun to grab a popcorn and watch from the sidelines. <grin>


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## mellowbo

Well, I just hope that if there is even a small chance that the health of our neezers could be compromised by adding blue pigment that the whole idea goes away.


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## Julie

I would have to agree with Amanda....I also like the jet black pigment that my boy has and would seek that out in any future addition , should there be one.

I personally would avoid any havanese with lack of pigment,brown pigment,gray/blue etc.


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## marjrc

Havtahava said:


> I don't really see a contradiction. All coat colors _are_ allowed, and you can have a variety of coat colors with any pigment: black, brown or blue. Brown pigmented dogs don't necessarily have brown coats, just as black pigmented dogs don't necessarily have black coats. Blue pigmented dogs don't necessarily have blue coats either, so it isn't really a conflict in the wording. Blue pigment isn't allowed.


That's exactly what I get out of this discussion. It isn't about coats, it's about pigment color.

Janet, I can't tell that pup has blue pigment whatsoever, but I'm sure it's easier in person. lol This page should help: http://www.mts.net/~mckay55/colours8.html


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## galaxie

This is sad. I don't understand why breeders wouldn't automatically want to breed OUT the blue pigment if it is associated with CDA.

This reminds me of people who breed white dobermans. They have been pushing for a long time to have white dobes recognized by the AKC to no avail. Reason? Too many health issues, shortened lifespans. IMO, they just care about the MONEY the make from being able to suck the uneducated in to buying a "RARE" dog.


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## talemaker_havanese

*Pet People & Blue Pigment*

Janet:

I think people probably do not understand the blue issue. I believe this is largely a pet population membership and I know breeders that don't truly understand.

I am not surprised that you didn't get the huge interaction that one would expect.

I just dematted a dog that had lesions on him. So I 'get' what you are speaking about.


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## peluitohavanese

Me neither. I like black pigment also  Plus I'd rather stay away from dilutes when other breeds have issues with genetic skin diseases such as CDA.


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## peluitohavanese

Beamer said:


> Ohhh.. I got ya. So it could be as simple as many breeders have the 'blue' in their lines and they want to be able to use all these offspring for show potential havs?
> 
> Or whatever reason.
> 
> Ryan


You said it, not me :evil:


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## mary c

*LONG II parts- question of color dilute alopecia and Havanese - facts not fear*

Truly, it is disturbing the alarmist reaction to questionable "evidence" posted on a list by a third party regarding a possible skin condition in a dog, and I feel it important to respond in depth, I will post in two messages to compy with the length requirement of the forum.

I believe everyone is very interested to learn what there is to learn about blue, skin issues etc., but
in the documents provided from a third party by Janet,
one can see that no proof has been provided that the DDC results which simply show that "A dog" is a blue,
has any relationship to "Sarah", not even a date of when this dna test was run, 
nor does the biopsy results even MENTION CDA, simply asks what color is the dog and says the sample (not a diagnosis by a long shot) histiology is consistent with follicular dysplasia, a disease process that can affect ANY color. there has been a HUGE leap in jumping to conclusions that are not drawn scientifically or reasonably from the evidence provided.
DDC representative stated:

"... there is no way to know if it is truly Havanese unless an AKC registration with microchip and matching microchip verified from the dog plus a certified pedigree is supplied. He also said that even if the dog does have the skin disease and is the dog in question of this color, it is only one dog and does not prove anything...."

the DDC form, which it has been confirmed from DDC has been altered:

Service Type: 
DNA ID Name/ ID Breed 
Number Tested: 
DNA Result dd C.22G>A +/+ (has 2 copies of this dilute allele) 
Report Date:

it does not state breed, it does not show permanent ID to show that there is a connection between
the DDC color test and the other attachments.

Everyone is interested to learn the facts about this issue, but what is presented here does not constitute information enough to come to a conclusion, 
does not answer the questions that need to be asnswered to be taken seriously, 
if the submitter wants to be taken seriously, then real proof must be provided.

How can anyone consider this type of "documentation" to be accepted as proof of anything other than:

1. there was a test, sometime, on some dog that has 2 copies of dd.
2. that Marshfield Labs received a sample described as being from a Havanese named Sarah,
which did not show in this sample evidence of SA.
3. the above mentioned sample shows a histology consistent with F/D... no mention of CDA, and this comment is NOT a definitive diagnosis, it would lead to further testing only.
4. someone wrote a biography about a dog named "Sarah".
5. someone shared pictures of a dog purported to be "Sarah"
6. an unidentified pedigree.

Now you add all of the above and can see that
this is clearly not evidence of anything more than what is listed.

continued in Part II...


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## peluitohavanese

mellowbo said:


> When it comes to coat colors, it would be hard for me to really distinguish between a "blue" and a steel/charcoal/silver/grey.
> 
> I have seen noses compared between black and a "smokier" black, just not as black, but I find it kinda hard to think that is a "blue". It just seemed to me to be a dog that is not pigmented as well..............


Blue is a dilution of black (in genetics)..so you are right ..it's a diluted black and what you are seeing is a slate blue or charcoal gray.


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## peluitohavanese

mckennasedona said:


> I guess I just don't understand the dog fancy. Are standards fluid and always changing? I would think a standard is a standard, period. If the dog doesn't fit, don't show it and don't breed it.


Oh how I wish more breeders thought the way you do! A standard is a standard. This is what keeps our Havanese looking like Havanese throughout the years. It is the blueprint that breeders use as a guideline for breeding and showing. When the standard gets drastically changed, the breed undoubtedly changes.

A


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## Scooter's Family

Normally I stay out of discussions such as this because I realize I have no knowledge of the topic.

However, my concern would be ANYTHING that's known to cause a health problem would be bred away if possible. Why would anyone continue to breed for a cosmetic result when there could be devastating health problems as a result of the breeding?


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## mary c

*Part II question of Color Dilute Alopecia and Blue Havanese*

continued:

Further along the lines of this issue to consider:

Is CDA a worse health issue than a liver shunt or a heart defect and therefore one to be avoided at all costs REGARDLESS of the loss of what good blue dogs may contribute to the breed?

Those who want to chose to ban blue havanese have stated that they want to do so simply out of fear of a color related disease that any breeder can easily avoid by doing a simple available DNA test on breeding dogs and not have to breed any blue DNA into their lines or dogs that is not already there.

If the risk of the possiblity of developing a color related disease such as CDA, and dealing with it seems worse to a breeder than the other health issues we risk developing and dealing with, the life threatening things such as heart defects, liver defects and even neurological defects as well as SA, it would pay to stop and realize that this is a risk that can be avoided easily by anyone, whereas other life threatening health risks cannot.

It is an intellectual argument for me and for others who refuse to jump on the Blues are bad bandwagon who are not breeding for blues
who simply have a different opinion regarding genetic risks and which is the lesser of two evils, 
losing a segment of the gene pool and all the good it may offer out of fear of one issue it MAY occasionally express?
or 
breeding responsibly, as we do with other health issues to breed away from any affected animals and if the fear of it popping up is too great, avoid breeding any blue dogs at all with a simple DNA test, no blood draw, simple saliva analysis?

some objective points made on a havhealth list by a havanese fancier from australia not subject to our debate:

1. Other colours get skin/coat probs like SA, so having a skin
problem shouldn't be the only reason for not accepting a colour.

2. To consider not accepting the colour it would need to be shown
that the condition was genetically linked to the blue colour genes
AND be shown that it can not be bred away from. (after all, that is
what we do with other conditions - breed with those not affected.
Why would this be different for genetically blue dogs?)

3. Disallowing something like a particular colour, which takes a
chunk out of the gene pool, should not be done lightly! Who knows
what will come out in the future - blues might turn out to be
invaluable in reducing or eliminating other genetic conditions.

Just my opinions . There is a lot of hysteria and name calling
surrounding this discussion, when (IMO) allowing blues, and
following normal, sensible breeding practices of not knowingly
producing pups with an inherited condition, would work just as well
for blues as it does for every other colour ...''

---------------------------------------------------------------------

As a long time (20 years) fancier of Havanese, who has shown through the test of time my committment to the welfare and well being of our beloved Havanese, who has seen them through various political upheavals, I recognize that this is a complicated genetic question, not easily answered with anonymous "evidence" about a dog with a skin condition. I do not offer 
a conclusion or suggest a decision or action at this point in time.
There are many complicated health and genetic issues to document in considering the questions surrounding inheritable skin conditions and color relationship to them and what I hope for is that those who care most about our breed do not jump to premature conclusions.
Historically, premature reactions to preliminary information regarding
health issues has not served our breed well.

Mary Cane
Moorea Havanese


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## peluitohavanese

I believe you don't have the correct copy. I will gladly share here. I was one of the breeders who worked with Sarah's owner/breeder. This poor girl is over 2 years old and is bald in the blue/charcoal colored areas of her coat. You can clearly see this in the picture. 
I health test my dogs. I do everything possible to minimize risk. Why? Because these pups are placed in loving homes, and when they grow up their owners love them and adore them and they deserve to get the healthiest dog they can. I and other breeders who breed by the standard and follow the code of ethics do our utmost to protect the legacy and health of this breed.


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## pacehavi

This is just a pet owner's perspective--I do not breed dogs and will never breed dogs--but when you say "Is CDA a worse health issue than a liver shunt or a heart defect and therefore one to be avoided at all costs REGARDLESS of the loss of what good blue dogs may contribute to the breed?" from my perspective I'd have to say YES! I wouldn't want anyone to get a dog with a disease if it could have been prevented knowingly--and I'm sure there are many many other good Havanese dogs to breed that are not blue. The 'loss' seems more to some breeders, not to the breed. And I'd certainly hope that if Havanese breeders could have weeded out dogs that carried the genes for liver shunts, or heart defects, from the beginning that they would have.

I actually think this is an important issue for pet owners and I thank Janet for letting us know (and I think most on this list are pretty smart so can get this) as we are the ones buying the majority of Havanese, and if some are possibly carrying genes for a disease, I'd say that's important to know when making an informed decision on which dog to buy.


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## mary c

Of course as a pet owner, your perspective is subjective and understandable, genetics is not an easy subject for anyone.
The "loss" referred to is of variety of genetic traits available in a breed... not of a dog or to a breeder. Creating a bottleneck of limited diversity has been show by causing closer inbreeding to bring hidden traits to the forefront, and the hidden traits that might surface may not be at all what one hoped for could be as bad or much worse than a skin condition as bad as they are.
In genetic terms, the Havanese has a very limited gene pool and limiting it further can have devastating results.
back to a pet owner's perspecitve... a pet owner that is not breeding Havanese would not be subject to the concern of Color Related Alopecia, or a dog carrying genes for it, unless one bought a true Blue Havanese, and still it is unknown that blue havanese do in fact carry the risk of this disease, that is the point. 
Banning blue Havanese will indeed limit the gene pool... WILL it eliminate a health risk?? That is not a fact at this point in time, hence the hope for no premature decisions that could have long lasting ramifications to the future health of the breed. 

Mary


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## mellowbo

peluitohavanese said:


> Blue is a dilution of black (in genetics)..so you are right ..it's a diluted black and what you are seeing is a slate blue or charcoal gray.


Or........couldn't you just be seeing a dog with silvering genes??

In any case, it just doesn't make sense to me to change the standard to what is showing up in breeding. It makes more sense to breed to the standard that is.

Let's make health #1.


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## mary c

*Blue Havanese*

Here is a picture of a Blue Havanese Puppy and as an Adult.

Mary


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## mellowbo

Cute. Does this dog's DNA say it's blue? 

As a pet owner my first concern is health!


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## BeverlyA

Please don't under estimate the "just pet owners" of this Forum or from anywhere else. As a group we are very interested in the direction the breed standard is going and even more interested in its health.

I know as a member of HRI, as soon as health problems show up, so do owner turn ins. For someone wanting a dog with a beautiful coat, a scaly, patchy coat won't do. Thank God for Mary Ellen since SA came along.

I'm not a member, but I wish the club would put as much time and effort into the health issues as the standard.

Why not remain with the standard as it's always been, as it refers to the pigmentation and continue the research into the health implications of the blue coloring? Once Pandora is let out of her box, she's not going back in, and that could have catastrophic consequences for the breed.

Beverly


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## mary c

BeverlyA said:


> Please don't under estimate the "just pet owners" of this Forum or from anywhere else. As a group we are very interested in the direction the breed standard is going and even more interested in its health.
> 
> I know as a member of HRI, as soon as health problems show up, so do owner turn ins. For someone wanting a dog with a beautiful coat, a scaly, patchy coat won't do. Thank God for Mary Ellen since SA came along.
> 
> I'm not a member, but I wish the club would put as much time and effort into the health issues as the standard.
> 
> Why not remain with the standard as it's always been, as it refers to the pigmentation and continue the research into the health implications of the blue coloring? Once Pandora is let out of her box, she's not going back in, and that could have catastrophic consequences for the breed.
> 
> Beverly


Beverly, 
I sincerely regret that you seem to feel that my response to the post by Pace (which was written as "just a pet owner's perspective" Pace's words, not my own) was in some way underestimating what you now describe as "just pet owners" as I would never refer to pet owners this way, I take exception to the phrase when it is spoken to me.

Those who know me know that a pet owner is to me the ultimate owner, which owner is the only owner I place dogs I occasional produce in my breeding program with. 
If a friend and pet owner of a puppy from me and I decide cooperatively that the dog would enjoy and do well representing our breed in the conformation ring is the only way one of my puppies goes in the ring 
while many of my pups are working therapy dogs, and do agility and/or rally with their pet owners.
I have advocated to resistance of owner/breeders of dogs in the top 5 conformation rankings that imo the reason to breed is to produce healthy, happy, joyful companions dogs to fulfill the historical purpose of this glorious breed, not as show specimens, the show specimens are meant to represent the companion dogs and be one themselves!

You may or may not know that I am one of the earliest volunteers and a past BOD member for HRI, working in Havanese Rescue before HRI rose from the ashes of HCA Rescue years ago.
I also currently am HRI State Contact for multiple states and am privileged to work on the HRI Intake Committee, so of course I am well aware of the dogs in HRI"s care, in fact, I was on intake and worked months to bring in a rescue dog that ME fosterd for a year with severe follicuar disease who is now happily adopted in my state of MA. 
I did not say it frivolously when I mentioned that I have been commited to the welfare of this breed for 20 years.
As well I too am committed to good health in the breed, I am a supporter of the SA research through Friends of Havanese and advocate for further research in my postition as a volunteer on the HCA Health Committee.

In no way was either of my posts meant to denigrate pet owners!!! I posted to adovcate for deliberate thoughtful response to issues to find the best course for the Havanese that I have loved and been loved by and have been happy to serve in many capacities to cherish and protect the breed for 20 years.
sorry for the long explanation, but Beverly, it seemed to me that from your post that you may not understand my history and passion for what is good for this breed on every front.
Mary Cane
Moorea Havanese


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## BeverlyA

Mary,

I'm sorry, I was not speaking directly to you, if it came off that way, it wasn't meant to. I do know you from HRI and your history with the breed.

Honestly, I was taking it back a bit further to Nathan's comment, which I don't think he meant to be derogatory at all, but it can sometimes make "us" feel not so smart. Forums like this, are one way novices, such as myself, who are intensely interested, can receive information and make contacts with mentors.

As a scientist, I can look at the blue pigment from a scientific perspective, and I would not want to take a chance with the blue breeding at this time.

I realize it's _way _off the topic, but I can't help but think of the continuing articles by Elizabeth Vargo in Havanese Breed and how interesting I find them!

Most everyone here is open and willing to learn about different points of view, that's what has made this Forum the wonderful place it is!

I'm grateful when breeders bring information to us that otherwise I wouldn't hear about or have a chance to hear discussed.

Now the last political thread...that was a different story!

Beverly


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## Scooter's Family

BeverlyA said:


> Now the last political thread...that was a different story!
> 
> Beverly


:fear: Just the thought of that makes my eye twitch.

I really like threads like these because as pet owners we may never hear about issues that would only concern breeders. I realize it would ultimately affect the dog in a pet home but by then it's already a problem and unless the pet came from a very reputable breeder, that pet family may not get any info or help from the breeder and be left to deal with it on their own.

I guess what I'm trying to say is THANKS for bringing up these issues for discussion and for educating me, I've learned so much from this forum!


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## ama0722

BeverlyA said:


> Why not remain with the standard as it's always been, as it refers to the pigmentation and continue the research into the health implications of the blue coloring? Once Pandora is let out of her box, she's not going back in, and that could have catastrophic consequences for the breed.
> 
> Beverly


I agree. I also haven't ever seen or heard of a blue puppy being born to a litter that wasn't bred for color (ex- breeding for chocolates) so I wonder how common it is. Could you also use the same argument about limiting the gene pool by breeding short hairs as well?

I also think of the implications for rare color and what it does to the breed. Just look at how many back yard breeders breed for chocolate and sell them at a premium on the internet (we have seen plenty of members on the forum purchase these dogs). Then you possibly take a genetic disorder that may be linked with the rare color and eek.


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## peluitohavanese

*Official DNA test on Sarah & Message from her breeder*

Here are the official mailed in DNA results for Sarah. They are attached to
this email. Private information has been blocked out.

Also, there is a message from Sarah's breeder at the bottom of this post.

It is difficult to put into words how disappointed, saddened, and ashamed I
am that she has been treated with such disrespect on the Yahoo lists, and that she has had to witness all of the snide and cruel remarks made by the blue Havanese proponents about her CDA girl Sarah.

If people sometimes wonder why most breeders are not more forthcoming and open about disclosing health issues in their dogs. this is why. They are ripped to shreds and doubt is cast on their every word.

What a shame.

Arlene Etzig
www.peluitohavanese.com
Home to Exceptional Havanese since 2003
2008 HCA Breeder of Merit - HCA Member Since 2006

_I would like to comment on all the posts to the list regarding Sarah. I
would like to thank those who have stepped up in defense of Sarah. To the
rest, whether you like it or not, Sarah is an AKC registered Havanese, the
SA study concluded she does not have SA but rather has Follicular Dysplasia
(three samples were submitted, you can read this in the report) and asked if
she has a unique coloring (perhaps blue is unique?). Because this was not
enough proof for some of you and you requested DNA testing for the dd
allele, I willingly submitted her DNA and paid the fee. I suppose I was
gullible enough to think you actually cared that a Havanese might carry for
or have a problem that is also found in other blue breeds.

I am very disappointed that from the beginning some have been very vocal
about Sarah not being what she is. I accepted the need for 'proof', but I
have now decided there is no proof that will satisfy because you are not
looking for truth, you are feeding your agenda. You are not considering my
dog, nor others that may be affected if blues are intentionally bred. My
heart breaks for the breed in the coming years. As if we do not have enough
to worry about, now let's just add one more item to the list of things that
will plague our breed. Consider genetics for just a moment. Every blue
bred to a blue will produce only blues. Every blue bred to another color
will pass on the blue 'd' to every puppy produced. If the mate of choice
carries for blue, some blue pups may also be born. This is a very quick way
to saturate the gene pool with the blue allele 'd', thus saturate the gene
pool with another potential skin disease.

Now, given the harsh words that have been spoken about Sarah, can you blame
me for not wanting my identity to be known? Certainly kind words would have
taken you much further in getting additional information. Yes, the paperwork
has been adjusted, to protect the innocent. After all, it is not about the
owner and breeder, it is about the dogs. The pedigree was adjusted not only
to protect the owner and breeder as well as other breeders who have
absolutely nothing to do with this blue dog. It was not desired that any
one pedigree be plagued, but rather to show that Sarah's pedigree contains
dogs that are in many Havanese pedigree's thus, this is not a pedigree of
obscurity that is not shared by many. Sarah shares ancestors with most
other American Havanese.

The comments about Sarah's history is not made up, it is exactly as I wrote
it. It is, and will remain entirely Sarah's. You can dream all you want
that she is black, but the DNA clearly shows she is blue, as well as any
close look at her next to her littermate. I find it amazing that no one
from the blue study contacted me about her joining the blue study after I
posted her results. I knew nothing about a blue study, I just knew I had a
sick dog, and thought I needed to share, for the health of the breed. I
then followed the advice I was given, included her in the SA study, and
followed up with a DNA test for 'dd'.

Every word of information presented is true about Sarah. She is an AKC
Havanese (would she have been admitted to the SA study if she were not?),
she is dd blue, she has follicular dysplasia, her skin and hair are
affected. You can fool yourselves if you want. You can fight aimlessly
trying to prove otherwise. You can accuse and blame. The point remains,
she is who she is, and no one can change that. You can believe the truth
presented or discard it.

I am disheartened that the Havanese community is reacting in such a manner.
Is this about breeders and owners or is it about the dogs? What is
important? What is the goal? I'm confused. I thought it was about the
dogs. Perhaps I was wrong.

Li​_


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## Scooter's Family

How very sad that breeders would attack each other when it seems as though she's providing information that would help others produce healthier dogs in the long run. I thought that's what "reputable" breeders were supposed to do.


----------



## peluitohavanese

Scooter's Family said:


> How very sad that breeders would attack each other when it seems as though she's providing information that would help others produce healthier dogs in the long run. I thought that's what "reputable" breeders were supposed to do.


I agree. It is very sad indeed.


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## pacehavi

Just a clarification as my name was raised above (well my dog's name--but since he's a Havanese he is intelligent so perhaps he did write the message :wink

My use of 'just a pet owner' was used because Telemaker Havanese said that this list was pet owners who wouldn't be interested in this issue (which I think is very false). While genetics can be difficult to understand, this list is very educated, with doctors, lawyers, professors, scientists and others of various backgrounds who are very smart and capable. 

I also do think every Havanese pet owner should care, not only those who buy a blue dog. Having gone through very mild medical issues with one of my dogs I would not wish that on anyone else. It is heartache and expense for the family who buys that dog. So, again, yes, if this disease can be stopped from spreading I think it is worth it. 

If breeders' feel the need for more genetic diversity then perhaps they could import Havanese from Cuba, France, other parts of Europe, etc? From this list I know that France has some stunning reds that I think would be desirable here. Or maybe not overuse a few particular stud dogs--which I think is a huge part of the problem. As Amanda said, short-haired Havanese also offer genetic diversity but are not bred. Not all genetic diversity is positive or desirable. So I would really hope that HCA chooses caution and continues to research these dogs and revisits the issue in a few years when more data is available.


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## peluitohavanese

pacehavi said:


> Just a clarification as my name was raised above (well my dog's name--but since he's a Havanese he is intelligent so perhaps he did write the message :wink
> 
> My use of 'just a pet owner' was used because Telemaker Havanese said that this list was pet owners who wouldn't be interested in this issue (which I think is very false). .... If breeders' feel the need for more genetic diversity then perhaps they could import Havanese from Cuba, France, other parts of Europe, etc? From this list I know that France has some stunning reds that I think would be desirable here. Or maybe not overuse a few particular stud dogs--which I think is a huge part of the problem.


Nathan from Talemaker Havanese is a pretty cool dude. I'm sure he meant nothing negative by his statement 
And yes, you are so right. Genetic diversity can be attained in more than one way  There are some absolutely stunning dogs coming out of Finland, Sweden, Denmark and other countries!


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## pacehavi

Thanks for the clarification on Nathan, Arlene. It's always hard to tell what someone means in writing! But maybe HCA and breeders also underestimate how much the pet population cares about the health and future of the breed we are so passionate about?


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## peluitohavanese

pacehavi said:


> Thanks for the clarification on Nathan, Arlene. It's always hard to tell what someone means in writing! But maybe HCA and breeders also underestimate how much the pet population cares about the health and future of the breed we are so passionate about?


I think you may be correct. SOME breeders may underestimate how much the pet population cares and understands... but not all 

I have many puppy buyers who know more than some breeders LOL!


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## SMARTY

My thoughts on some of the discussion as to standard changes:

Many breed standards have been changed because of a campaign by "member breeders" that through popular and in-breeding have produced continuing characteristic(s) that is a deviate to the breed standard. This could be the result of a very popular stud or line that passes on a characteristic that may not be recognized until the 2nd or later generation. The result is owners with beautiful dogs that are to big, to small, different coat, tail set, pigmentation etc. As more dogs are produced a movement to accept the deviate into the breed standard is organized. It is up to the membership and leadership of the club to research the requested change as to the worthiness and betterment of the breed. Not all changes are bad as many tighten the uniformity and health of the breed.

I want to believe if there are know or suspected negatives to any proposed change in the standard the voting membership of HCA or any breed club would reject these changes.


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## peluitohavanese

SMARTY said:


> My thoughts on some of the discussion as to standard changes:
> 
> Many breed standards have been changed because of a campaign by "member breeders" that through popular and in-breeding have produced continuing characteristic(s) that is a deviate to the breed standard. This could be the result of a very popular stud or line that passes on a characteristic that may not be recognized until the 2nd or later generation. The result is owners with beautiful dogs that are to big, to small, different coat, tail set, pigmentation etc. As more dogs are produced a movement to accept the deviate into the breed standard is organized. It is up to the membership and leadership of the club to research the requested change as to the worthiness and betterment of the breed. Not all changes are bad as many tighten the uniformity and health of the breed.
> 
> I want to believe if there are know or suspected negatives to any proposed change in the standard the voting membership of HCA or any breed club would reject these changes.


BINGO. you got this one perfectly right


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## Kathy

mary c said:


> Here is a picture of a Blue Havanese Puppy and as an Adult.
> 
> Mary


Hmmm, how do we know that is a "blue" puppy? I see no proof, could be a silver dog and not blue at all.


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## peluitohavanese

Kathy said:


> Hmmm, how do we know that is a "blue" puppy? I see no proof, could be a silver dog and not blue at all.


I agree. I guess we need to see the blue DNA results from DDC.


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## BeverlyA

How very sad for the owner of Sarah. I could never understand why, as a community, when there was a health issue, especially something that appears to be genetic, the community didn't rally to try and discover all they could about it, knowing that except by the Grace of God it could be THEIR dog(s) next.

After the kum-by-ya feelings from Denver, I had hoped things wouldn't take a turn like this again. (sorry for that spelling!) Obviously that is asking too much from such a large group with so many different opinions. 

And I agree...I'm sure Nathan is a wonderful guy and meant nothing negative by the comment. I had a terrific conversation with him last year and he had no idea who I was! I just wanted to point out that not all breeders do have that attitude, and sometimes it does start to feel a bit demeaning.

For lots of us, this is one of the few ways we get information about our Havs, so it's really appreciated when we get information other than just the fun stuff.

Beverly


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## mellowbo

Kathy said:


> Hmmm, how do we know that is a "blue" puppy? I see no proof, could be a silver dog and not blue at all.


Yes, I haven't received an answer to my same question.

I repeat, Why can't HCA be content to breed to the standard we have instead of changing the standard to what is being produced, perhaps to the detriment of our loving breed??

As you all know, I know nothing about breeding, but it seems common sense to me to avoid all negative health risks. It seems a LOT more needs to be known before our puppies and their owners are subjected to possibly avoidable misery. Whats the hurry?


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## peluitohavanese

mellowbo said:


> Yes, I haven't received an answer to my same question.
> 
> I repeat, Why can't HCA be content to breed to the standard we have instead of changing the standard to what is being produced, perhaps to the detriment of our loving breed??


I am a member of HCA. I speak for myself only, but I am perfectly content to breed to the current standard


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## Lunastar

I do not understand why they would change the standard to begin with. I know it has changed several times already. That just seems wrong to me some how. The standard should remain what it is.


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## marjrc

Mary, I truly appreciate your posts on the subject. It is true that it's important not to jump the gun w/o all the facts. I also appreciate the concern many of us have. I think knowledge is a powerful tool and I try to absorb as much as I can about all aspects of the beloved Havanese. I'm not a crazy dog lady, but a crazy Hav lady! lol I am always learning at the forum.

Arlene, thank you for the documents you've shared with us. My heart aches for Sarah's owner as you can tell how hurt she is feeling and how much she cares for her darling Hav. None of us want to see any of our dogs suffer and if there is anything breeders can do to prevent that from happening (and we all know there can't be 100% guarantees no matter how careful a breeder is), we all would like to see that happen. I feel very passionate about producing the healthiest, happiest Havs possible - but then I don't breed, I just admire you all from the sidelines, so I don't know all that is involved.  

I also know Nathan and Darlah, and since there was mention of grooming in Talemaker's post, then you can be sure that came from Darlah as I don't believe Nathan takes on that task with their crew.  They are admirable people, breeders and dog owners and very supportive and passionate about the Havanese.


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## Julie

This is a very interesting thread. How sad for Sarah's owner and breeder....what a terrible outcome every way there is.

I just hope that the people involved with the health issues and standard changes really consider all this in depth before any changes are made. It appears there is passion on both sides.

I'm not sure why this thought will not leave my head--and I don't want to open a can of worms--however--I feel I must ask this question. Just as an observer of that whole issue on here--

Is this not like the HSD thing? It seems I had the idea that the havanese standard was wanting to be changed by some ,to accomidate those dogs who appeared differently.The flatter single coats etc. The results were pretty sad..


----------



## peluitohavanese

Julie said:


> I feel I must ask this question. Just as an observer of that whole issue on here--
> 
> Is this not like the HSD thing? It seems I had the idea that the havanese standard was wanting to be changed by some ,to accomidate those dogs who appeared differently.The flatter single coats etc. The results were pretty sad..


Sure seems like it when you look at it closely doesn't it? Anytime any organization or group of people has a sub-group vehemently pushing a particular issue, there is bound to be speculation in this regard.


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## Julie

Well maybe I am just being niave or it comes from not knowing anything in too much depth (other then what happened here) as far as the bred split and all that mess---but just as a simple observer-- I wonder if anytime you have something "different" that keeps popping up in your lines (to standard or not to standard) if a breeder isn't being objective they then push for standard changes to accomidate what they have? Why as a breeder wouldn't the thought be " I need to do something different and try to get in compliance with the standard?" If the standard is always "fluid" and always available to change -then everyone has a reason to push for changes to accomidate themselves and what they turn out. 

I guess maybe I am just a person who doesn't breed and has basically no knowledge of breeding--but I would be a person who would opt for strict guidelines and have those standards almost written in blood! Then when you have perfected the breed to standard (as written) and are turning out healthy,happy havanese to the standard--then maybe re-visit the idea of adding a color.

Is that being too simplistic?


----------



## peluitohavanese

Julie said:


> Is that being too simplistic?


No it's not too simplistic. I happen to agree with everything you wrote


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## hedygs

Very polarizing situation. I'm not a scientist nor a breeder, but I never knew or thought that one possible case subject does a study makes or a definitive conclusion either. 

I am willing to listen to both sides and then make an informed decision on the pros vs cons.


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## peluitohavanese

hedygs said:


> Very polarizing situation. I'm not a scientist nor a breeder, but I never knew or thought that one possible case subject does a study makes or a definitive conclusion either.
> 
> I am willing to listen to both sides and then make an informed decision on the pros vs cons.


Yep just what we needed....another polarizing situation


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## Lina

hedygs said:


> Very polarizing situation. I'm not a scientist nor a breeder, *but I never knew or thought that one possible case subject does a study makes or a definitive conclusion either*.
> 
> I am willing to listen to both sides and then make an informed decision on the pros vs cons.


Emphasis mine.

I am also confused by all this hullaballoo over a single case. Since when does A=B at all times when you find a single situation where A=B? I don't see how people can draw these wild and crazy conclusions from one dog's, admittedly sad, situation. Are there other blue dogs that have shown SA or CDA? If so, how many others? What are the percentages of dogs affected with SA or CDA with the blue gene? What about the percentage of dogs without the blue gene that have SA/CDA? I'm not sure how people can jump to conclude that all blue dogs carry CDA when this is from one single case. That's like saying I met a dog with black pigment that has CD so therefore every dog with black pigment has CD. Until there is more data available, I don't see how any conclusion can be drawn about this issue.

I do feel for Sarah's owner and I hope that other people with blue dogs will do the DNA test and find out if this is indeed a widespread thing in dogs that are blue. Until then, I don't think I can honestly have an opinion either way.


----------



## peluitohavanese

Lina said:


> I am also confused by all this hullaballoo over a single case. Since when does A=B at all times when you find a single situation where A=B? I don't see how people can draw these wild and crazy conclusions from one dog's, admittedly sad, situation. Are there other blue dogs that have shown SA or CDA? If so, how many others? What are the percentages of dogs affected with SA or CDA with the blue gene? What about the percentage of dogs without the blue gene that have SA/CDA? I'm not sure how people can jump to conclude that all blue dogs carry CDA when this is from one single case. That's like saying I met a dog with black pigment that has CD so therefore every dog with black pigment has CD. Until there is more data available, I don't see how any conclusion can be drawn about this issue.


Well... the membership was challenged to find one, just ONE case of a blue dog with a problem. The claim is that these blues have been around forever and have never had a skin issue like CDA. So... one breeder comes forward with her blue with follicular dysplasia...and now ONE is no big deal. 
Your questions about percentages of dogs affected with SA or CDA that have the blue gene are great questions. I know I have lots of questions. How many blues in the so-called "blue study". How many are related to each other. From what countries are these blues? etc etc. This group has refused to provide this information. Keep in mind no one has asked for names of dogs, kennel names or names of breeders. All we have asked for are some numbers to work with. 
I, as a conscientious breeder who is looking out for the future of our breed cannot in my right mind vote in favor of this without the information needed to make an educated decision. If they won't provide the data, then I have to vote no.


----------



## mellowbo

When I go to a dog show and watch, for example the labs, I really like that they come in 3 colors. I wouldn't care at all if a hav was "blue", as long as it is not just a mutation that would weaken the health of the dog. I don't have any idea about this stuff but I think it would be better to err on the side of precaution.

Actually, I would really like to see the "standard" tightened. When I watch the shows it is hard for me to see how the judges can even compare them. I would like to see the sizes come up and down by an inch. Some faces don't even look like hav's. 

It just seems to me breeders need to hone in on setting a more uniform "hav look". Just saying....


----------



## Scooter's Family

Julie said:


> Well maybe I am just being niave or it comes from not knowing anything in too much depth (other then what happened here) as far as the bred split and all that mess---but just as a simple observer-- I wonder if anytime you have something "different" that keeps popping up in your lines (to standard or not to standard) if a breeder isn't being objective they then push for standard changes to accomidate what they have? Why as a breeder wouldn't the thought be " I need to do something different and try to get in compliance with the standard?" If the standard is always "fluid" and always available to change -then everyone has a reason to push for changes to accomidate themselves and what they turn out.
> 
> I guess maybe I am just a person who doesn't breed and has basically no knowledge of breeding--but I would be a person who would opt for strict guidelines and have those standards almost written in blood! Then when you have perfected the breed to standard (as written) and are turning out healthy,happy havanese to the standard--then maybe re-visit the idea of adding a color.
> 
> Is that being too simplistic?


I don't think it's simplistic at all. To me it seems that it would be about money, plain and simple. If a breeder is producing dogs with (x) characteristic and it's not desirable then those dogs would have trouble finishing a championship and then being used to breed. That would be a loss to a breeder if they aren't producing champions. So if that breeder gets a group together who also have dogs with (x) in their line they may all band together to have the standard changed so their dogs fit the "new" standard. At that point those dogs are finishing and would be worth more money as breeding stock.

Does this scenario sound plausible to any breeders out there?

(Just a "pet" mom here but I love this breed and care about what happens to these sweet dogs!)


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## peluitohavanese

Scooter's Family said:


> I don't think it's simplistic at all. To me it seems that it would be about money, plain and simple. If a breeder is producing dogs with (x) characteristic and it's not desirable then those dogs would have trouble finishing a championship and then being used to breed. That would be a loss to a breeder if they aren't producing champions. So if that breeder gets a group together who also have dogs with (x) in their line they may all band together to have the standard changed so their dogs fit the "new" standard. At that point those dogs are finishing and would be worth more money as breeding stock.
> 
> Does this scenario sound plausible to any breeders out there?
> 
> (Just a "pet" mom here but I love this breed and care about what happens to these sweet dogs!)


yep sounds logical to me


----------



## Janizona

Wow I leave for a few days and you guys have been chattin away! I also think the pet owners get left out of too much of what is happening in the breed so that is why I try to remember to post to the Forum. Sometimes Beverly has to remind me....thanks honey!!


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## pacehavi

From what I understand: Regardless of breed, CDA is a disease that only afflicts blue dogs. Other breeds have blue dogs and have found CDA correlated (Dobermans, Pomeranians, etc) so overall it is not just one case of blue dogs and CDA. Here's a good link: http://www.italiangreyhound.org/pages/702healthpages/cda.html.

So, how do Havanese fit into this? Again, from what I understand: previously when blue Havanese were born they were placed in pet families only. Now some people want to change the standard, thus be able to champion and breed blue Havanese. Since blue is a very rare coat color, if breeders breed for blue they can charge more, gain prestige, etc. From what I gather, the 'pro-blues' say that either a) blue Havanese don't/won't have CDA or b) even if they do it's a small percentage. Those against it say that they have one case that shows that at least one blue Havanese has CDA, so allowing blues into the standard would be knowingly allowing a health problem, even if it's small percentage and contained to blues.

I think, as a few have mentioned, the best approach would be to say this is only one case so let's research more. On either side, one case is one case. But the 'pro-blues' don't want this, they want the change now. Which reminds me of Veruca Salt in Willy Wonka...


----------



## marjrc

mellowbo said:


> Actually, I would really like to see the "standard" tightened. When I watch the shows it is hard for me to see how the judges can even compare them. I would like to see the sizes come up and down by an inch. Some faces don't even look like hav's.
> It just seems to me breeders need to hone in on setting a more uniform "hav look". Just saying....


As a pet owner and fan of Hav Specialties, I have wondered the exact thing. I even asked a few breeders about that. There is quite a variety of Havs in the ring, and you can spot the differences once you start really looking at them and seeing them all lined up, day after day, group after group. I'm just glad I'm not a breeder as I would be quite frustrated about how 'loose' the standard is! lol I'm sure I just dont' get it so I'll let you all worry about things like that while I take my pictures and get my puppy breath.


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## peluitohavanese

Janizona said:


> Wow I leave for a few days and you guys have been chattin away! I also think the pet owners get left out of too much of what is happening in the breed so that is why I try to remember to post to the Forum. Sometimes Beverly has to remind me....thanks honey!!


Janet you are so right  I think the pet owners are the heart of our breed. I have always said that I am blessed to have such wonderful owners for my babies, and I am sure you and others feel the same way about your puppers' homes.


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## peluitohavanese

pacehavi said:


> I think, as a few have mentioned, the best approach would be to say this is only one case so let's research more. On either side, one case is one case. But the 'pro-blues' don't want this, they want the change now. Which reminds me of Veruca Salt in Willy Wonka...


I have always stated that what I would like to see is more research. I would like to see the addition of blue pigment to our standard put on hold until the proper research and time is put into something as serious as this. If in the end the research shows that there are no serious health issues, I will have no problem accepting it, but for now I am unable to do so because there is no information being shared with the membership.


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## peluitohavanese

peluitohavanese said:


> Janet you are so right  I think the pet owners are the heart of our breed. I have always said that I am blessed to have such wonderful owners for my babies, and I am sure you and others feel the same way about your puppers' homes.


I also want to add that I am concerned that Sarah and her illness may be one of more to come. I hope not, but there is no way of knowing this if the people breeding the blues don't slow down, do some research, get some valid statistics, and share them with the members so that they can make an educated decision. 
I just cannot vote to include something in our breed based on blind faith.


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## BeverlyA

Is the blue pigment obvious to the point that people could be showing these dogs now? I get the impression yes? Would judges ever request DNA documentation at certain shows if there was a question on the pigment? Do people looking at dogs to breed with theirs ever ask for such documentation?

Do we know if any of the dogs in the SA study actually have CDA?

Janet, thank you so much for sharing with me and with all who are interested, all of the Hav news and info!

Beverly


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## mellowbo

Bev, I have the same questions. How many "so called" blues are really silver? And how many silvers are actually blue? What judge asks for DNA or compares black noses to really black noses? How many "blue" noses are really just diluted blacks? Are breeders going to DNA all their breeding stock to really know what they are breeding? Pretty crazy.

But, for me, the bottom line is, will there be more health problems with blue pigment havs? Wouldn't it be interesting to DNA all havs with certain health issues and see what they have in common??


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## ama0722

I also agree it is only one case but one case is one too many for me. I always think about the average pet owner and having to deal with a dog with the health issues. To be honest as much as our breeders do, it is usually the average owner who keeps the dogs and has to care for them-numbers wise and age wise (lots of retired dogs are rehomed). 

I also was looking at the blue havanese on the gallery (btw I think a lot of them are just identified as blue as their coat color and not pigment so just as many breeders are confused about what "blue" means) and then looking them up on OFA. I see a lot of the dogs identified as blue and used for breeding have little or no health testing posted at all (eek!)

P.S. I also have to add as "just pet owners" we are pretty stinking awesome and a brag for Ryan, we gave the Havanese Club of America a check for $10,000 this year! Makes this wonderful group of Havanese lovers more than just pet owners


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## peluitohavanese

ama0722 said:


> P.S. I also have to add as "just pet owners" we are pretty stinking awesome and a brag for Ryan, we gave the Havanese Club of America a check for $10,000 this year! Makes this wonderful group of Havanese lovers more than just pet owners


Oh yeah! This is one AMAZING group of people.


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## Havtahava

Beverly & Carole: No, a judge would never ask for DNA on a dog for any reason.


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## BeverlyA

So a judge would disqualify based simply on their visual opinion. Do you remember ever hearing of this happen? Or then I suppose a judge might not DQ a dog but just not place it if there was a question in their mind?

I thought a blue coat was not allowed by the AKC, but tonight when I was looking at the standard again, it does say "all colors are acceptable". So am I understanding that right? Blue coat is fine, and has been since this standard was approved, but blue pigment is not.

Thank you all for your help with this!

Ryan and crew...you all were incredible bringing in 10K with your :deadhorse: calendar! Best EVER!

Beverly


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## Havtahava

Beverly, a judge is only judging on soundness (basic structure & movement) and the specific standard for that breed. They don't get into anything genetic like DNA, so there would be no reason to ask that. So long as the dog conforms to the standard (hence, the reason it is called a conformation competition vs. obedience, agility, rally, herding, etc.) and appears to be sound, judges will be focusing on those main points.

Keep in mind that a judge only has two minutes per dog in the ring to make his assessment and in that small amount of time, s/he is required to do several different examinations (visual mostly, but a hands on exam as well) and determine the best dog on that day. There are approximately 40 points on a dog to be judged, so two minutes disappears quickly and I don't believe most judges assess all those points in a given competition. It would be almost humanly impossible to do so.

Correct: A blue coat is absolutely fine. Blue pigment is not.


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## Kathy

Seeing a Havanese that supposedly has "blue" PIGMENT, isn't as easy as one might think. I wonder how many Havanese that might have bad black pigment would be called blue pigment? Even those that claim they have great knowledge of blue pigmented Havanese, have been wrong on many occasions. I think there is still a whole lot of unknown and a whole lot for us to learn before we decide it is ok to accept. 

This isn't about the coat color called "blue", as Blue coats have been allowed for a long time. This is about pigment only. Think of the color a Weimaraner is, that is considered a Blue coated dog. Now you can see how hard it is to differentiate between a Blue coated dog vs a silver/grey coated dog. Our standard has always said this color dog had to have black pigment.


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## Havtahava

By the way, I am a strong advocate in showing dogs before breeding, but this is also why I don't believe it is the "be all to end all" either. A champion is assumed to have fit the standard at the time they finished and was sound. However, most of us here also know that a dog must also have all of his health testing posted publicly as well. If a breeder has not shown the dog to his/her championship nor done the health testing, then get the heck out of Dodge. Something's wrong.


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## Havtahava

True Kathy. 

If you have three dogs side by side with various pigments: black, blue and "winter nose" (or weak pigment), you'll probably see the difference more obviously, but when each one is standing alone, it is really hard to figure out of blue is really black or weak pigment or blue.


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## Janizona

Snipped


BeverlyA said:


> So a judge would disqualify based simply on their visual opinion. Do you remember ever hearing of this happen? Or then I suppose a judge might not DQ a dog but just not place it if there was a question in their mind?
> 
> Beverly


I doubt many judges would notice the blue pigment on the nose BUT if they did not think it was dark enough they could withhold ribbons or excuse a dog. I actually did see this happen on a cream color dog who's nose was "dudly" or also we call it "winter nose" but sometimes it is just bad pigmentation. I'm sure you've seen the lighter color on some cream dogs but this can also happen on any color dog.


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## peluitohavanese

BeverlyA said:


> So a judge would disqualify based simply on their visual opinion. Do you remember ever hearing of this happen? Or then I suppose a judge might not DQ a dog but just not place it if there was a question in their mind?


I did see one judge excuse a dog due to poor pigment. It had pink in the middle of the nose and black on the outside..Kind of a faded look to the nose.


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## Narwyn

Kathy said:


> This isn't about the coat color called "blue", as Blue coats have been allowed for a long time. This is about pigment only. Think of the color a Weimaraner is, that is considered a Blue coated dog. Now you can see how hard it is to differentiate between a Blue coated dog vs a silver/grey coated dog. Our standard has always said this color dog had to have black pigment.


Actually, many Weims are dilute brown. Only some are true blues (dilute black). So what you get is a dog that is either brown or blue but called Grey - no wonder this is all so confusing! :tape:










It's important to remember that the genes that control coat color are many and complicated. There is a genetic different between a blue and a grey/silver dog. Both the D Series and G Series gene affect coat color and pigment. A dilute black (blue) and a greyed black (silver) can look quite similar.

Blue, by definition, is an expression of a dilute gene (so is chocolate). "This series differs from the others in that it does no cause any color per se. What it does is to act upon other loci in an epistatic fashion to cause different expressions. If D is present either singly or in duplicate, then a dog will have the color of its coat determined by other loci. If dd is present then coat color will be diluted. The degree of dilution will depend on modifying factors." (Willis p 67).

This is different from the Greying (or silvering) gene. The gene to silver out a coat is dominant. "The greying referred to is not the graduate greying of age but rather a progressive change in black coats until they become a grey blue shade. Most breeds are actually gg and thus unaffected by this gene but several breeds such as Bedlingtons, Kerry Blues, and OES do seem to carry G." (Willis p 69) I think we will all agree Havanese also fall into this category.

He also speaks to the blue/grey confusion: "Since dd gives rise to blue some doubt may exist as to the casual factor of blue in a breed. However, it seems that dd animals are slatish-blue at birth while GG or Gg dogs are black." (p69) Really, a true blue will never have black pigment, while a greyed dog likely does or did as a puppy.

Just in case you weren't confused enough, since these are series, a dog can be both dilute and have a silvering gene. That's why you see some very dark, rich chocolates (Kimberly, I believe you have one) but many that are lighter, almost pinkish color.

Hopefully that helped a few people understand the difference, not add to the confusion.

Also - Earlier in this thread, someone asked if reputable breeders are going to DNA all their dogs. There are many breeds there is a genetic marker for a disease so a dog can be detected as clear/carrier/affected (Like VWD in Dobermans or Fanconi in Basenjis).

Do those reputable breeders DNA all their dogs to ensure there are no affected dogs, now or in the future? YOU BET!!!! If you are reputable - you do what it takes.

Book reference: Willis, Malcolm B. _Genetics of the Dog._ Howell Book House: New York. 1989.


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## Sheri

Wow. Very interesting, though I only understood a portion of the above quotes. But, I like to try, especially as it concerns "my" wonderful breed. A truly educational thread, and a topic to keep our ears open about. 

:ranger:


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## Havtahava

Back to the OP and others: Has CDA ever been found in dogs with black or brown pigment?


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## peluitohavanese

Havtahava said:


> Back to the OP and others: Has CDA ever been found in dogs with black or brown pigment?


The only alopecia that I have seen documented as found in black coated dogs is BHFD - black hair follicular dysplasia. It affects the black hair.

It is not related to black or brown pigment though.

CDA however is related to the dilute gene in dogs..specifically the 'dd' which is autosomal recessive fore the dilution of black.


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## mellowbo

Sheri said:


> Wow. Very interesting, though I only understood a portion of the above quotes. But, I like to try, especially as it concerns "my" wonderful breed. A truly educational thread, and a topic to keep our ears open about.
> 
> :ranger:


Sheri, I agree with you! I just find all this very interesting. Maybe if I read enough I will finally "get it".

It sure would be awesome to see all breeders DNA their breeding dogs! Now, if there was a way to also get this kind of control from back yard breeders and puppy mills. Too bad that won't happen. :frusty::frusty:


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## Havtahava

peluitohavanese said:


> The only alopecia that I have seen documented as found in black coated dogs is BHFD - black hair follicular dysplasia. It affects the black hair.
> 
> It is not related to black or brown pigment though.
> 
> CDA however is related to the dilute gene in dogs..specifically the 'dd' which is autosomal recessive fore the dilution of black.


Where can someone read about these findings?


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## peluitohavanese

Havtahava said:


> Where can someone read about these findings?


Here are some good links:

http://italiangreyhound.org/pages/702healthpages/cda.html

http://www.bing.com/reference/semhtml/?title=Canine_follicular_dysplasia&qpvt=color+dilution+alopecia&src=abop&fwd=1&q=color+dilution+alopecia

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/70203.htm


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## Havtahava

mellowbo said:


> It sure would be awesome to see all breeders DNA their breeding dogs! Now, if there was a way to also get this kind of control from back yard breeders and puppy mills. Too bad that won't happen. :frusty::frusty:


Uh no, that won't ever happen. Unfortunately, I predict that the more and more the reputable breeders learn and try to eliminate from their breeding programs, the more costs go up for us. (You don't even want to see my tax returns in regard to dogs!) And yet, more and more BYBs will be breeding Havanese due to their popularity and "cuteness" which will perpetuate _so many_ health issues because they are not willing to spare a few dollars to do each of the various health tests. We'll continue to hear more and more "Oh, my vet checks my dogs carefully before I breed" as if that is enough and their costs will drop and their profits will increase, while the reputable breeders will continue to lose money each year (and yet, have to claim a profit on occasion or get shut down) and be the ones who are continuing to breed away from genetic problems and still losing out. It is a stinky place to be.


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## peluitohavanese

Well I know that I will not allow any blue dilute into my lines. Now that there is a test for it, I can just stay away from it all


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## peluitohavanese

peluitohavanese said:


> Well I know that I will not allow any blue dilute into my lines. Now that there is a test for it, I can just stay away from it all


I should also add that if they come up with the DNA markers for hereditary diseases, I'm going to be standing in line to get mine. 
Just imagine how wonderful it would be to know what to avoid when breeding! Right now when you put two dogs together, unless you are very familiar with your lines, and even then you don't know 100%, it's a roll of the dice.


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## BeverlyA

I found those links very interesting. Thank you for posting them Arlene.

Beverly


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## tabby2

Janizona said:


> If anyone is interested: http://www.dnacenter.com/vet/new-order-canine-coatlength.html?vphone=1-800-625-0874&vdnis=DNIS0874
> 
> The test for the blue is Coat Color Test- D Locus and cost $58


I looked at the link and it says it's testing the DNA for the color of the coat; it doesn't say it's testing for the color of the skin pigment. Doesn't that mean it's a DNA test to determine whether the coat color is blue but it isn't testing whether the dog itself is a "blue" (since that requires that the pigment be blue)?? Just curious.


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## mellowbo

Wow, good heads up Jane! Thanks.


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## BeverlyA

From what I'm just beginning to understand, it comes from the "color coat genotype dd" and that is what can be tested for with the DNA kit? 

That is what I am understanding from the articles from those links. 

Beverly


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## Janizona

Yes, this test is for the "dd" which produces the blue pigment.


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## Kathy

Janizona said:


> Yes, this test is for the "dd" which produces the blue pigment.


Janet, "dd" is the marker for the coat color though and states that on the test. There are "blues" that have black pigment and their dna marker would be "dd" but their pigment not blue.

Kathy


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## Narwyn

Kathy said:


> Janet, "dd" is the marker for the coat color though and states that on the test. There are "blues" that have black pigment and their dna marker would be "dd" but their pigment not blue.


Kathy, are you certain about this?

I understand that though called coat color genes many of these are really pigmentation genes, not just hair but skin, nose, pads, lips, eye rims... etc.

A "dd black" dog is a dilute black, aka genetically blue, with slate-grey/blue skin, coat, lips, paws, etc from birth. Any dog whose coat appears blue, but has a black nose, is really a GG/Gg genetically black dog whose coat appears blue-ish, but they will be DD or Dd. Because of other pigment modifying genes, you can get a REALLY dark blue or a REALLY pale black, but genetically, they aren't the same.

I was not able to find any evidence that you can have a dd dog with genotypically (genetically) black pigment. If they phenotypically (physically) appear to have a black nose, its because they have wonderfully dark pigment and with a very close exam in proper light and experienced eye, you can tell it's blue. Most places seem to point to the carefully examined nose color as the best way to know the genetic color of the dog sans genetic testing.

If I am misunderstanding or misinformed, please provide me with some reading material! I would love to learn more :ranger:

"D affects both eumelanin and pheomelanin pigment. It is thought to act by causing the clumping of pigment granules in the hair. Like B, it often affects skin and eye color, and in some breeds dd has been associated with skin problems. "Blue" is the term most often used to describe dd blacks." http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/genetics/colorgen.html#D

"Dilution controls the intensity of the pigmentation. With dilution, black becomes blue and brown becomes lilac."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_%28dog%29

http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/noses.htm and on the same website http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/dilutes.htm


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## peluitohavanese

Narwyn said:


> Kathy, are you certain about this?
> 
> I understand that though called coat color genes many of these are really pigmentation genes, not just hair but skin, nose, pads, lips, eye rims... etc.
> 
> A "dd black" dog is a dilute black, aka genetically blue, with slate-grey/blue skin, coat, lips, paws, etc from birth. Any dog whose coat appears blue, but has a black nose, is really a GG/Gg genetically black dog whose coat appears blue-ish, but they will be DD or Dd. Because of other pigment modifying genes, you can get a REALLY dark blue or a REALLY pale black, but genetically, they aren't the same.
> 
> I was not able to find any evidence that you can have a dd dog with genotypically (genetically) black pigment. If they phenotypically (physically) appear to have a black nose, its because they have wonderfully dark pigment and with a very close exam in proper light and experienced eye, you can tell it's blue. Most places seem to point to the carefully examined nose color as the best way to know the genetic color of the dog sans genetic testing.
> 
> If I am misunderstanding or misinformed, please provide me with some reading material! I would love to learn more :ranger:
> 
> "D affects both eumelanin and pheomelanin pigment. It is thought to act by causing the clumping of pigment granules in the hair. Like B, it often affects skin and eye color, and in some breeds dd has been associated with skin problems. "Blue" is the term most often used to describe dd blacks." http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/genetics/colorgen.html#D
> 
> "Dilution controls the intensity of the pigmentation. With dilution, black becomes blue and brown becomes lilac."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_%28dog%29
> 
> http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/noses.htm and on the same website http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/dilutes.htm


'd' is the dilution allele. When it is presented double ('dd') the dog in question is a born blue dilute. Blue is a dilution of black. The dog has blue lips, eye rims and nose leather in addition to having blue or dark slate coat color. 'D' is black and is dominant, therefore 'Dd' would carry for the dilute blue but the dog would be black. 
This is pigment, not coat color. 'DD' is black.

If you breed a blue dilute ('dd') to a homozygous dominant for black ('DD') you effectively have the probability of producing 100 percent carriers for blue dilute ('Dd'). This is huge. This type of breeding spreads blue dilute carriers throughout the gene pool if done by breeders who are unaware of what genes their dogs carry.

When you breed a carrier ('Dd') to a carrier ('Dd'), you have a 25% chance of getting a black ('DD'), a 50% chance of getting dilute carriers ('Dd') and a 25% chance of getting a born blue dilute puppy ('dd').

If you breed a blue dilute Havanese ('dd') to a carrier ('Dd') you get a 75% chance of producing blue dilutes ('dd) and a 25% chance of producing one carrier. So if you have 4 pups in a litter 3 will be blue and 1 will be black carrying for blue.

I don't even want to imagine what happens when you breed two dilutes together - you get 100 percent dilute blues...


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## BeverlyA

K & C, that is how I am understanding it too. I thought the Greyhound link was very helpful and the visual helped me too.

Very interesting topic!

Beverly


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## Narwyn

peluitohavanese said:


> 'd' is the dilution allele. When it is presented double ('dd') the dog in question is a born blue dilute. Blue is a dilution of black. The dog has blue lips, eye rims and nose leather in addition to having blue or dark slate coat color. 'D' is black and is dominant, therefore 'Dd' would carry for the dilute blue but the dog would be black.
> *This is pigment, not coat color.* 'DD' is black.


Emphasis mine. You are correct in your post about the inheritance of blues.

What I was questioning:

_Originally Posted by Kathy 
Janet, "dd" is the marker for the coat color though and states that on the test. There are "blues" that have black pigment and their dna marker would be "dd" but their pigment not blue._

Above is saying a dd dog can have a black nose. I don't think this is true, and you seem to agree. I don't believe that a truly dd dog can have black pigmentation. They can have such dark pigment it might appear black, but it's not upon close examination. Likewise, a silvered DDGG dog can have poor pigment and a coat color that might appear blue, but genetically it is not, and close examine shows it more charcoal than slate. Our eyes might deceive us, but the genetic markers are there.

I was unable to find anything suggesting a truly dd dog can have a truly black nose. Again - if I am wrong - please share the reading material!

To slightly over simplify using only pure-for, not carrier genes:
Black nose, black coat = DDgg
Black nose, silvered black (blue-ish) coat = DDGG
Blue nose, blue coat = ddgg
Blue nose, silvered blue coat = ddGG


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## Janizona

Narwyn said:


> Kathy, are you certain about this?
> 
> I understand that though called coat color genes many of these are really pigmentation genes, not just hair but skin, nose, pads, lips, eye rims... etc.
> 
> A "dd black" dog is a dilute black, aka genetically blue, with slate-grey/blue skin, coat, lips, paws, etc from birth. Any dog whose coat appears blue, but has a black nose, is really a GG/Gg genetically black dog whose coat appears blue-ish, but they will be DD or Dd. Because of other pigment modifying genes, you can get a REALLY dark blue or a REALLY pale black, but genetically, they aren't the same.
> ]


Thank you for commenting on Kathy's post. I agree with what you said. You can't have a "bb" (brown) with black pigment just as you can't have a "dd" with black pigment. "dd" means dilute. Dilute is just that.


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## Tom King

Simple recessives can stay hidden in a population and only emerge rarely on some occasions. A good example is what we call "shorthairs". The symbols given to the shorthair are FF, Ff, ff-by the way it's not a coat length controlled thing but a head furnishing one that controls the rest of the coat in that case. You know how rarely you see shorthairs, but it has been found to be a simple recessive and Vetgen has a test for it. So using that example, you can see how a simple recessive trait can stay hidden in a population that has a relatively prevalent number of carriers.

We are right in the age of the beginning of DNA testing. Other breeds are already using DNA testing to eliiminate health problems being carried that they have in a couple of generations, and more are coming online all the time.

There are other problems the genes have been found for that aren't simple recessive, and it's probably not too far in the future before tests are ready for those. The simple recessive tests are pretty easy by comparison. Some things are shown by individuals only when the problem gene is reinserted on the Chromosome much like what causes Down Syndrome. 

There are places that will develop a test for about anything now if the funding is provided. All you have to do is put individuals in the tests that have been hand picked with some showing the symptoms of what you seek and others that don't.

We sell very few show/breeding dogs by choice, but with the last three we have sold, the buyers wanted to know beforehand if they carried for curly or shorthair. It was easy to provide. I think we will be seeing this more and more.


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## Kathy

What I am referring to more then anything is going back to our standard and then reading the DNA test provided to members recently.

We allow for Blue coated dogs that have black pigment. I understand about d/d now better then before after all these conversations. So, I stand corrected. A d/d will be a blue in both coat and pigment and will look like a blue at birth not black. Correct?


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## BeverlyA

That is how I am understanding it Kathy, not saying that's correct! I'm waiting to hear also.


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## peluitohavanese

Kathy said:


> What I am referring to more then anything is going back to our standard and then reading the DNA test provided to members recently.
> 
> We allow for Blue coated dogs that have black pigment. I understand about d/d now better then before after all these conversations. So, I stand corrected. A d/d will be a blue in both coat and pigment and will look like a blue at birth not black. Correct?


Yep!


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## Janizona

Kathy said:


> A d/d will be a blue in both coat and pigment and will look like a blue at birth not black. Correct?


In my opinion - sort of! A blue puppy can be so dark that it can be undetected at birth. It can be undetected at any age actually if someone doesn't really think about it. Think of the pigment we see on newborns. Some are totally pink, some are pretty light but solid, some are spotted. So a blue dog with blue pigment can be born "looking" like any other pup. But as they grow, the blue pup won't have as deep of color as the black black pigment pups. Blue pigment can be very dark, deep gray. I doubt a judge would even think twice about the pigment color on a DARK blue as long as it was solid.

Same with the coat. The blue coat can just look like the gray/blue coat caused by the G gene. I think if there is any doubt, the dna test is the best way to go. I bet we have a lot more blue (dd) in the breed than we realize.

JMO


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## peluitohavanese

Janizona said:


> In my opinion - sort of! A blue puppy can be so dark that it can be undetected at birth. It can be undetected at any age actually if someone doesn't really think about it. Think of the pigment we see on newborns. Some are totally pink, some are pretty light but solid, some are spotted. So a blue dog with blue pigment can be born "looking" like any other pup. But as they grow, the blue pup won't have as deep of color as the black black pigment pups. Blue pigment can be very dark, deep gray. I doubt a judge would even think twice about the pigment color on a DARK blue as long as it was solid.
> 
> Same with the coat. The blue coat can just look like the gray/blue coat caused by the G gene. I think if there is any doubt, the dna test is the best way to go. I bet we have a lot more blue (dd) in the breed than we realize.
> 
> JMO


I agree.


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## Missy

I am finding this discussion fascinating. Some of it is a bit beyond my comprehension but I love that you breeders are sharing a bit of your world with us as well as alerting us to possible health concerns in the breed.


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## ama0722

Okay I am still a bit confused . They test the DNA for coat color and not pigment right? We are assuming if the dog has dna for blue coat it also has blue pigment (I understand the difference of black silver, etc here). Could you have a blue pigment dog without blue coat though and that would show up in the genes? Ex- I have seen plenty of cream havanese with chocolate noses. 

I am surprised if it is simple recessive there aren't TONS of havanese with blue coats and pigment.


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## Janizona

ama0722 said:


> Okay I am still a bit confused . They test the DNA for coat color and not pigment right? We are assuming if the dog has dna for blue coat it also has blue pigment (I understand the difference of black silver, etc here). Could you have a blue pigment dog without blue coat though and that would show up in the genes? Ex- I have seen plenty of cream havanese with chocolate noses.
> 
> I am surprised if it is simple recessive there aren't TONS of havanese with blue coats and pigment.


There are so many genes in play within a Havanese. Has everyone seen this website? I won't even bother trying to retype anything since its already out there. Take a look and see what you can come up with :juggle:

http://www.mts.net/~mckay55/inherit.html


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## Lunastar

I too am finding the discussion here fascinating and very educational.


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## Janizona

Lunastar said:


> I too am finding the discussion here fascinating and very educational.


I am so glad! I didn't like science as a youngster but now I find the science of breeding and genetics addictive! :crazy:

Tom mentioned that his last 3 show pups wanted DNA for shorthair which I find interesting. Personally I wouldn't pass up a beautiful Havanese because it carries for SH. If you just don't breed to a carrier male then it won't ever be a problem. I've tested my dogs for curly and SH and was quite surprised to find a carrier in my crew. Now that I know, I'll just have DNA run on her potential mates and we won't produce any.


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## Tom King

They were all three dogs. All three of the potential new owners had females that were carriers, so it didn't make a lot of sense for them to buy a carrier male. Both parents of the litter are not carriers so we didn't need to test the puppies.


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## Janizona

Tom King said:


> They were all three dogs. All three of the potential new owners had females that were carriers, so it didn't make a lot of sense for them to buy a carrier male. Both parents of the litter are not carriers so we didn't need to test the puppies.


Now that makes sense! I was thinking females.....see what happens when we assume something. =)


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## mellowbo

ama0722 said:


> Okay I am still a bit confused . They test the DNA for coat color and not pigment right? We are assuming if the dog has dna for blue coat it also has blue pigment (I understand the difference of black silver, etc here). Could you have a blue pigment dog without blue coat though and that would show up in the genes? Ex- I have seen plenty of cream havanese with chocolate noses.
> 
> I am surprised if it is simple recessive there aren't TONS of havanese with blue coats and pigment.


Exactly Amanda! Lulu has a very dark brown nose. You saw it and said it was poor pigment and I agree. Here we go again, a choc. with creme/apricot coat? Or just a diluted nose? Hmm, but only chocs have brown noses? arghh, lol.

Not that I care but there are probably a gazillion DNA tests that should be done. I wouldn't doubt that that are a lot of blues in our breed right now as well as blue carriers. I just find the whole topic very interesting and also want to thank the breeders for discussing it here.


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## Narwyn

mellowbo said:


> Exactly Amanda! Lulu has a very dark brown nose. You saw it and said it was poor pigment and I agree. Here we go again, a choc. with creme/apricot coat? Or just a diluted nose? Hmm, but only chocs have brown noses? arghh, lol.


Have been out of this discussion for a bit (what a week at work, ugh) but am catching up now.

Technically (and I think I might have referenced this wrong in a previous post, sorry) it's a different gene that makes a dog chocolate - it's not a dilution in terms of the dd gene. The B Series is responsible for black pigmentation (BB, Bb) versus chocolate/liver/red/tan/whatever it is called in that breed pigmentation (bb). Other genes control the intensity of the color, so a BB dog can actually have faded black pigment. But it's black vs. brown.

So a dog that looks like a cream but has a brown nose could well be a bbdd dog - a dilute chocolate - often called a cafe au lait (coffee with milk:wink. I have definitely see dogs who fit this description - one of whom was shown as an adult and DQd by two judges for improper pigmentation. Genetically it might have been acceptable, but it didn't _look_ self-colored, it looked like a cream dog, which should have black pigment, and a judge has to go by what they see that day. It's up to breeders to wrangle with these crazy genetics!

I'd love to see the full coat and pigment series on some Havs. I wonder how often we misidentify their "actual" colors based on what we see.

Also, in regard to blue, just because a gene is a simple recessive doesn't necessarily make it a common recessive.

On that note - I had no idea you could test for Shorthair carriers I mean, I imagined it was possible, but I didn't know the marker had been identified and you could actively test for it! I agree that I wouldn't make it routine, but would be interesting.


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## BeverlyA

Now I'm a little confused again! If a dog has a chocolate nose (pigment) doesn't that make that dog a chocolate, no matter what color the coat is? Or is the debate, how do you differentiate dark brown from diluted black?

Beverly


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## Janizona

BeverlyA said:


> Now I'm a little confused again! If a dog has a chocolate nose (pigment) doesn't that make that dog a chocolate, no matter what color the coat is? Or is the debate, how do you differentiate dark brown from diluted black?
> 
> Beverly


Yes brown (what ever shade it may be) is chocolate. Here's one I produced, he's Emma's brother along with another brother with black pigment.


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## Narwyn

BeverlyA said:


> Now I'm a little confused again! If a dog has a chocolate nose (pigment) doesn't that make that dog a chocolate, no matter what color the coat is? Or is the debate, how do you differentiate dark brown from diluted black?


Well, dark brown and diluted black (blue) are easy to tell apart. I think you mean Dark Brown versus a "faded" black.

A chocolate dog has a chocolate nose BUT remember, a black nose can fade to greyish or brownish. It's all about how the gene series (of which there are at least seven factors) plays out.

Clover (who is registered as champagne) had a pitch black nose when I got him. Here he is around 5 months old(This is a picture of a picture, so it's kind of blurry).









By one or two, he really had what looks like a dark brown nose. To this day, he has a brown nose. It's similar to some chocolates I've seen. It gets darker or lighter as the seasons change, but, it's never black anymore. You can also see what was a very minor undershot bite as a puppy is pretty pronounced now! He's 13.









He just doesn't have nice, strong pigment. His nose pigment is not correct per the breed standard because he has a champagne coat, as any coat color than chocolate must have black pigment. I know he is NOT a chocolate, because he had black pigment earlier in life. Also, he has very dark eyes, and most dogs with a dd or bb series have lighter eyes.

A judge (or other stranger) looking at an adult cream colored dog just has no reliable way of knowing what is faded, incorrect pigment and what is a genetically chocolate dog. In Clover's case, his lips stayed black, which is a good tip off his nose is just incorrect, but sometimes all the pigment fades away.

This is all so confusing because what they "look like" and what they "really are" don't always match up! It's pretty easy in some breeds (like Labs) but we just have so many options open to us....


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## BeverlyA

Awwwwww!!! Emma says HI!! to her brothers!

I am getting it, slowly but surely! Genetics really is interesting!

Beverly


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## marjrc

That is so interesting, Karen, thank you! I love seeing the pictures, too, to help us out. Having to 'study' all these puppy pics is such torture though..... ! :wink:


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## mckennasedona

Janet, your chocolate boy is adorable. I LOVE the chocolates, dilute gene or not. They are so pretty.


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