# Cuba



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

hopefully the new diplomacy between the U.S. and Cuba will bring some meaningful improvements to the U.S. and the country that brought us this wonderful breed of dogs. Ricky what do you say. ?


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

!Estoy muy contento con este desarrollo! Quiero visitar la tierra de mis ancestros. Viva Estados Unidos! Viva Cuba! eace: Sorry, I get a little carried away about my historical country. I would like for a contingent of us US born Havanese to visit Cuba in the future in a group as a goodwill gesture. I would like to play with some of my long lost cousin doggies.

besos, Ricky Ricardo


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

I'm curious how today's announcement might impact Havanese. Will U.S. breeders go to Cuba to augment their breeding programs? And do we know much about Cuban-born Havanese vs U.S-born Havs; how are they different?


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

There is already a lot known about the Cuban dogs. Canada, and other countries have been accepting them into their registries, even though the US hasn't. Some of the oldest, long time Cuban breeders have been in the US with their dogs for some time now. 

There has been, for along time, Cuban dogs mixed into the American gene pool. Since Canada accepts Cuban dogs, and AKC accepts Canadian dogs, some have come in that way.

Genetic research showed that American Havanese only share 3 out of the 78 Chromosomes with them. 

I've met a fair number of the Cuban dogs. It will be interesting to see what AKC does, if anything, about accepting them into the American Havanese registry. We won't be going out of our way to get them into our personal breeding program.

A group of Havanese breeders went to Cuba 8 or 9 years ago to meet the breeders, and dogs there. There used to be a Cuban Rescue group that sent such things as flea and tick medications, food, shampoo, etc. When the breeders that were handling that in Cuba defected, there was no longer a contact, so it stopped action.


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

Tom King said:


> There is already a lot known about the Cuban dogs. Canada, and other countries have been accepting them into their registries, even though the US hasn't. Some of the oldest, long time Cuban breeders have been in the US with their dogs for some time now.
> 
> There has been, for along time, Cuban dogs mixed into the American gene pool. Since Canada accepts Cuban dogs, and AKC accepts Canadian dogs, some have come in that way.
> 
> ...


Very interesting Tom. Thank you so much for sharing this info with us.


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## Naturelover (Nov 30, 2013)

Indeed, very interesting. Now I got curious about Canadian vs American Havs so I e-mailed my breeder to get her input, see what she knows about Cuban bloodlines in Canada.



Tom King said:


> There is already a lot known about the Cuban dogs. Canada, and other countries have been accepting them into their registries, even though the US hasn't. Some of the oldest, long time Cuban breeders have been in the US with their dogs for some time now.
> 
> There has been, for along time, Cuban dogs mixed into the American gene pool. Since Canada accepts Cuban dogs, and AKC accepts Canadian dogs, some have come in that way.
> 
> ...


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

The European registries accepted Cuban dogs too. Probably, the US was the only country that didn't, but I'm not sure.

The biggest differences that I have seen are, that the eyes are a bit closer to the top of the skull (stop), and they don't have nearly as thick of a coat. They only have the straightish (slightly wavy) coats. Tails are very much more carried up, and the tip nowhere close to the top of the back. No short muzzles, and round eyes, like you see so much of in the ring. Their gait is a lot more athletic than a lot of the paddling feet that you see here.

The Cuban dogs fit the old, first Standard anyone knows about, a lot closer than a lot of Havanese that you see in the ring here these days.


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## Naturelover (Nov 30, 2013)

I might regret asking this but in the interest of knowledge is that what the Havana Silk Dog people are on about? Is that what they are breeding back to? 

My breeder said yes there are Cuban bloodlines in her dogs but that the Cuban dogs were awesome 10+ years ago and not as much now.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Tom King said:


> The biggest differences that I have seen are, that the eyes are a bit closer to the top of the skull (stop), and they don't have nearly as thick of a coat. They only have the straightish (slightly wavy) coats. Tails are very much more carried up, and the tip nowhere close to the top of the back. No short muzzles, and round eyes, like you see so much of in the ring. Their gait is a lot more athletic than a lot of the paddling feet that you see here.


Senor Tom, sir, how does this description compare to the Eastern European Havanese? Do we US bred Havanese have closer bloodlines and appearance to my Cuban amigos or to my European amigos? I suppose that we are more closely related to European Havanese since some of them have been brought to North America for breeding in recent years. But my bloodlines go back several generations to US only bred dogs. Are we US dogs totally unique? Us "curious by nature" Havanese want to know.

gracias, Ricky Ricardo


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

A lot of the European Havanese originated here. There were a few breeders over there that imported dogs from the U.S., which a lot of the bloodlines originate from over there. Since then, "dogs of type" were added. Some of those came from some of the Slavic countries that were thought to have originally come from Cuba, being a fellow communist country. So, who knows....

A small group went to Cuba, as part of Cuban Rescue, I think in 2005 or 6. They carried things that the dogs down there could use, and collected DNA during part of their trip from Havanese (Habaneros) down there. There was a talk given at the Havanese National Specialty that year abut the trip, and what they found. Five people attended to hear it, several of which had heard it before, so there was little interest. The genetic research, comparing American Havanese, with the Cuban dogs, showed that they possibly shared only 3 out of the 78 chromosomes. History and Science sometimes don't mesh.

I expect more will be heard about the Cuban dogs that are already here, as the political stuff gets eased off.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Senor Tom, not to be estupido or anything, but i think what you are saying is that we US bred Havanese (and possibly European bred Havanese) are a distinct and unique breed and significantly different from our Cuban cousins, regardless of our possible bloodlines to the original Cuban Havanese brought to the US in 1959. If this is true, it really changes a lot of things.

muchas gracias, Ricky Ricardo


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

The Havanese Registry first entry, Tomas, was in 1984. Various versions of history put the first Havanese in this country at different years. Keep in mind that what the person who started the Havanese registry did for a living was starting different rare breed registries.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Senor Tom, sir, how does this description compare to the Eastern European Havanese? Do we US bred Havanese have closer bloodlines and appearance to my Cuban amigos or to my European amigos? I suppose that we are more closely related to European Havanese since some of them have been brought to North America for breeding in recent years. But my bloodlines go back several generations to US only bred dogs. Are we US dogs totally unique? Us "curious by nature" Havanese want to know.
> 
> gracias, Ricky Ricardo


I don't know any Cuban dogs, but I do know several European bred Havanese. What I notice with the European bred dogs I know is that they tend to have a little lower tail set, (It still curls over their backs, but sets on their croup a bit lower) and when left to move naturally, move with their heads in a lower, more forward position. These same dogs can be made to look more like the "American mold" in the show ring, by teaching them to keep their head up while gaiting and stacking. But when you see them moving completely naturally, they have a bit longer, lower outline. There is a FB group I belong to where several European breeders post, and they don't like how upright many American Havs have become. The other thing I've noticed is that some of them have a heavier coat texture than the American Havanese I know do. The coats are not coarse and they aren't curly, but they feel different. It's hard to describe. Haven't heard any of the European breeders comment on this, though.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Gracias Senora Karen. This whole "standards" thing is very confusing to me



krandall said:


> There is a FB group I belong to where several European breeders post, and they don't like how upright many American Havs have become.


So what, ni modo! This sounds very arbitrary and haphazard to me. I was undefeated in the conformance ring as a puppy but I did not enjoy it. I had two disqualifications because I wasn't enjoying it. My forever family is not into that type of competition. And now, since I don't have any cajones anymore, I can't compete in conformance. My forever family "rescued" me from a life that I wasn't interested in. My forever family likes me just the way I am - too upright, too furry, or too whatever. But I am looking for other competitive challenges where arbitrary standards aren't important, where having doggie fun is important. I wanna compete in limbo contest! I'm gonna win!

I think the most important characteristic of us Havanese is our playful, extroverted personalities. Physical characteristics are less important than having a well grounded, happy doggie. I just enjoy being goofy and entertaining peoples. I love all peoples, especially my Momi and Popi.

Well, gotta go! I have a play date with Lucy next door. She likes us Latin/European/American types!

besos, Ricky Ricardo


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky, try out Rally, Obedience, Agility, Barn hunt (you get to find RATS in piles of hay!!!) Lure Coursing (that's when you chase a plastic bag around outside and run FAST!!!) or Nose work. There are LOTS of fun and challenging sports to take part in where it's all about your relationship with your owner, not just how pretty you are.


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

My dog has cuban lines on one side. His grandma was born in the US but is a cuban dog. Quite often people when we are out and about tell me he does not look like the havanese they are used to seeing, although I am not sure what they mean. Maybe because his hair is long.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

SJ1998 said:


> My dog has cuban lines on one side. His grandma was born in the US but is a cuban dog. Quite often people when we are out and about tell me he does not look like the havanese they are used to seeing, although I am not sure what they mean. Maybe because his hair is long.


? American and European Havanese have long hair too, unless pet owners decide to keep them trimmed down into a puppy cut. (with the exception of the few short haired Havanese that show up in some lines occasionally)


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

krandall said:


> ? American and European Havanese have long hair too, unless pet owners decide to keep them trimmed down into a puppy cut. (with the exception of the few short haired Havanese that show up in some lines occasionally)


I didnt write that post very well! What I meant to say was that although I have a dog with some direct Cuban heritage, I dont know that he looks different than other havs as a result. Many people however (non-hav owners) tell me he does, but I am presuming it may be more due to the longer hair than anything else.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Really interesting thread, thank you all for so much information. I guess UK Havanese count as 'European', and am not sure whether or not in the UK we have any Cuban ancestry. I think her name ("Cuba") is the only Cuban thing about my beloved dog, but I haven't asked my breeder for specific information yet.


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## Naturelover (Nov 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> The other thing I've noticed is that some of them have a heavier coat texture than the American Havanese I know do. The coats are not coarse and they aren't curly, but they feel different. It's hard to describe. Haven't heard any of the European breeders comment on this, though.


I know what you mean about the coat- when I was first looking at this breed I attended a local show. One of the Havanese looked very different to me and had more of the coat you describe. Less fluff & silk; more like human hair I would say. A gorgeous dog however! Was very red. If I remember correctly the dog was of German origin. My breeder said she likes the coats she gets when she brings those dogs into her line.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Naturelover said:


> I know what you mean about the coat- when I was first looking at this breed I attended a local show. One of the Havanese looked very different to me and had more of the coat you describe. Less fluff & silk; more like human hair I would say. A gorgeous dog however! Was very red. If I remember correctly the dog was of German origin. My breeder said she likes the coats she gets when she brings those dogs into her line.


You're right! They are more like human hair. Tony (who is staying with me at the moment) is a German dog, (red) of Pillow Talk lines. I think most of the U.S. reds are Pillow Talk lines. He never went through a difficult "blowing coat" phase, and he can easily go 5 or 6 days without developing any matting. A really easy care coat. It's also a LOT more weather proof than Kodi's, with a much more distinct outer coat and undercoat.

I JUST finished bathing both dogs. Kodi is in my lap for his post-bath cuddle... Tony wanted no part of that, so is waiting in his crate, on a pile of towels. I'm wondering how long it will take to dry his coat!


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