# Teds new changes all in 24 hours



## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

Ted has found 2 new things that amazed me, seeing as he is so young. My daughter(22) had a girlfriend over last night who was playing with Ted. She has 2 small dogs at home so he was quite enamoured with her.....so much so that when she stopped playing with her, he humped her. Now last night I thought it couldn't be, but this morning the next door neighbour was petting him and when she stopped he started humping her! So thats #1
On my walk after lunch with him today, a neighbour drove by in his truck. He started to bark at it and try to run after it.(on leash so couldn't) Another pickup truck went by ner the end of the walk and he proceeded to bark and try and chase that one too. Now I know boys love woman and fast cars, but this young?:cheer2::eyebrows:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ahhh, adolescence is setting in early!!!:biggrin1:


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## Dory (Jan 4, 2012)

Quincy isn't humping per se, but he does walk like velcro behind me. Lots of times he'll jump and grab onto my calf as I'm walking. It's like he's walking right on my heels. I can't see what he's doing back there, but it doesn't feel like humping. I am NOT looking forward to that phase LOL:crazy:


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## Gabs (Apr 15, 2012)

Ugh chasing cars -- my gabby started doing this (she's just over a year). Never paid attention to cars or other dogs before, but now she chases the cars and barks at other dogs on our walks :frusty: (she's always on leash). Trainer is coming up at the end of the month, I have no clue how to stop it, nothing is working so far.


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

Went tonight and for the humping its pulling the dog off and she also taught us how to reward dogs for good behaviour when a person approaches them. For the cars she said start the walk and as soon as the car comes before the chasing begins, start rewarding the dog and keeping there attention until car is gone. They will soon figure everytime a car comes if I pay attention to my owner they will keep rewarding me. Now I'm just back from class so I'm still trying to absorb all of tonight but I think that was the jest of it.


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

*humping*



Dory said:


> Quincy isn't humping per se, but he does walk like velcro behind me. Lots of times he'll jump and grab onto my calf as I'm walking. It's like he's walking right on my heels. I can't see what he's doing back there, but it doesn't feel like humping. I am NOT looking forward to that phase LOL:crazy:


I was so sure Ted wasn't last night until I saw him do it to my neighbour again today, so gotta nip that in the bud right away. Ted is at my calfs to but I also cant see so I guess I'll have to ask someone to pay attention to us when someone is around. He is not supposed to be climbing up my legs anyhow, so I am usually saying leave it.
He did interact with a female dog on the weekend so maybe thats what sparked all this.


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## Tuss (Apr 22, 2012)

How old is Ted? Might be time for the big snip snip surgery.


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

Hes not 4 months yet, and I'm waiting til 1 to do the nasty!


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## Tuss (Apr 22, 2012)

Talk it over with your vet. there are pros and cons to waiting on surgery. I opted to do it at 6 months (i have a female though). If the humping gets worse I'd consider moving up the date. I think the benefits of waiting or more pronounced in larger breeds than small breeds, but it's a complicated and controversial issue to be sure.


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

Tuss said:


> Talk it over with your vet. there are pros and cons to waiting on surgery. I opted to do it at 6 months (i have a female though). If the humping gets worse I'd consider moving up the date. I think the benefits of waiting or more pronounced in larger breeds than small breeds, but it's a complicated and controversial issue to be sure.


My Vet was cool with it until after his appt today when he said Ted had an overbite. He said 6/7 months would be perfect so that if any teeth had to be pulled it could be done at the same time. Can't believe I didn't notice it when brushing, but his mouth is so different compared to my Scottys big toothed mouth that I guess I just didn't. Makes me mad, I dont think something like that should have been overlooked by both my Vet and the breeders Vet and the breeder herself. Now what do I do??? GGGRRRR very, very frustrated


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

lise said:


> My Vet was cool with it until after his appt today when he said Ted had an overbite. He said 6/7 months would be perfect so that if any teeth had to be pulled it could be done at the same time. Can't believe I didn't notice it when brushing, but his mouth is so different compared to my Scottys big toothed mouth that I guess I just didn't. Makes me mad, I dont think something like that should have been overlooked by both my Vet and the breeders Vet and the breeder herself. Now what do I do??? GGGRRRR very, very frustrated


First, an overbite makes NO difference in a pet. He will be absolutely fine. Second, we've had a number of people here with young puppies where a faulty bite has corrected itself as they grew. So I wouldn't be TOO sure that his overbite will remain.

It would have been nice for your breeder to point it out (if it were obvious at that age) but since it in no way interferes with the puppy's health or good pet qualities, the breeder may have felt it was no more important than pointing out a low tail set or ears that were too big.


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

The Vet seems to think it isn't that great .as he told me to watch that the teeth dont get too big and pierce the inside of his mouth. He feels that I should bring him in again at 6 months and get his mouth checked again to see if the baby ones have to be removed to make room for the adult teeth. I in no way love Ted any less but I feel that when a pup is handed over and a good amount is paid, full disclosure should be given. I'm sure that I would have taken him home anyhow but so far, first visit Giardia and second overbite.


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## Gabs (Apr 15, 2012)

did you get a contract with your breeder? perhaps it wasn't noticeable until now? I'd contact them to see if they knew about it

any pup should be checked at around 6 months to ensure the baby teeth are(have) coming out properly, because some do retain baby teeth and they need to be removed so the adult teeth come in as they should (been there)


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

Gabs said:


> did you get a contract with your breeder? perhaps it wasn't noticeable until now? I'd contact them to see if they knew about it
> 
> any pup should be checked at around 6 months to ensure the baby teeth are(have) coming out properly, because some do retain baby teeth and they need to be removed so the adult teeth come in as they should (been there)


I have a contract but as if I would give Ted back now. I will be emailing her though


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

lise said:


> The Vet seems to think it isn't that great .as he told me to watch that the teeth dont get too big and pierce the inside of his mouth. He feels that I should bring him in again at 6 months and get his mouth checked again to see if the baby ones have to be removed to make room for the adult teeth. I in no way love Ted any less but I feel that when a pup is handed over and a good amount is paid, full disclosure should be given. I'm sure that I would have taken him home anyhow but so far, first visit Giardia and second overbite.


I agree that I would hope that the breeder would have pointed out any glaring conformation flaws. But I'm also wondering a bit, since your vet didn't seem to notice the problem on his first visit either. (and you didn't notice it) Maybe it just wasn't so obvious then?


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

krandall said:


> I agree that I would hope that the breeder would have pointed out any glaring conformation flaws. But I'm also wondering a bit, since your vet didn't seem to notice the problem on his first visit either. (and you didn't notice it) Maybe it just wasn't so obvious then?


I dont know about the Vet, maybe he overlooked looking at his mouth the last visit, but because this is a whole new thing and with teeth just coming in I wasn't looking for it. The difference in his head and mouth and a Scotties head and mouth is huge. Until he pointed it out yesterday (and its obvious once you look at it) I didnt know. I had just brushed his teeth before we left for the vets, but of course, I was holding his mouth open.


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## Gabs (Apr 15, 2012)

lise said:


> I have a contract but as if I would give Ted back now. I will be emailing her though


sorry, that's not what i meant, of course you'd never return him! ... in the contract (if its like mine) it should show when he was checked by a vet and his overall health prior to going to you (i would think it would have been noted in there if it was present...it might not have been noticeable/present until recently?)


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## Becky Chittenden (Feb 4, 2009)

The humping thing seems a natural thing with some Havanese and since they are so smart a few stern NOs and pushing them off, they learn this is unacceptable.
I'm assuming he was bought as a pet. Bite in a pet is not something to be concerned about. If this were a show puppy, yes, but things can happen that are unexpected even with show prospects. As far as bite is concerned, over, in a puppy, than under. An underbite won't get better since the lower jaw grows longer than the upper. I agree with watching his baby teeth. Smaller dogs seem to have a bigger problem retaining baby teeth. I've had several baby teeth pulled over the years.
In reference to show prospects having unexpected things happen, I bought a dog several years ago for a show prospect. I'd shown him several times, he'd won points a couple times and then one day he was disqualified for an undecended testicle. He was fine later but within a couple weeks, about the time the testicles began to grow, he pulled one up and that was the end of his show career. Not the breeders fault, just nature's way of saying ha, ha
There are many studies attesting that early neutering/spaying is bad developmentally for your dog. You'll probably want to google it and read up.


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

*Thanks*



Becky Chittenden said:


> The humping thing seems a natural thing with some Havanese and since they are so smart a few stern NOs and pushing them off, they learn this is unacceptable.
> I'm assuming he was bought as a pet. Bite in a pet is not something to be concerned about. If this were a show puppy, yes, but things can happen that are unexpected even with show prospects. As far as bite is concerned, over, in a puppy, than under. An underbite won't get better since the lower jaw grows longer than the upper. I agree with watching his baby teeth. Smaller dogs seem to have a bigger problem retaining baby teeth. I've had several baby teeth pulled over the years.
> In reference to show prospects having unexpected things happen, I bought a dog several years ago for a show prospect. I'd shown him several times, he'd won points a couple times and then one day he was disqualified for an undecended testicle. He was fine later but within a couple weeks, about the time the testicles began to grow, he pulled one up and that was the end of his show career. Not the breeders fault, just nature's way of saying ha, ha
> There are many studies attesting that early neutering/spaying is bad developmentally for your dog. You'll probably want to google it and read up.


Thanks for the info Becky. That day was a disaster for my hubby and I in more ways than just Teds Vet visit. One thing after another was going wrong and just before I left I received a disturbing email, so I left the house in a fowl mood. I was expecting the visit to the Vet to be non-eventful. Pretty sure my day couldn't have gone much worse. When I returned, the bad stuff just kept piling up.
My last Scottie, which I researched alot for and got a breeder who had an outstanding reputation in that world, ended up with Scotty Cramp and seizures. I really was hoping that I would get a break this time around. First the Giardia then the bite just threw me over the deep end. I have calmed down now and realized that my Scotty (who lived to 12) did have a great pet life. He was loved and trained and fed and spoiled. Ted will have the same life and hopefully will only have to contend with an overbite seeing as I already took care of the giardia!


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

No marking as of yet! Just the 2 humping incidents. I'm over the bite thing (no pun intended).


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## Havanese_Lady (May 4, 2012)

Carlos used to hump me all the time when we first got him, and he would hump his toys. I just told him a firm no and whenever he was humping me I would put him on his back for a few seconds so he knew who was boss. He stopped and doesn't hump anything now but I can't remember how long it went on for... couldn't have been more than a month.


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

Ya, I stopped Ted the second time as the first time I thought I was seeing things! He hasnt humped anything since! or so far!ound:


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## Louella (Aug 21, 2012)

Yikes!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Havanese_Lady said:


> Carlos used to hump me all the time when we first got him, and he would hump his toys. I just told him a firm no and whenever he was humping me I would put him on his back for a few seconds so he knew who was boss. He stopped and doesn't hump anything now but I can't remember how long it went on for... couldn't have been more than a month.


It's fine to correct your pup for humping, but humping is NOT a "dominance" behavior, and there is no good reason for forcing a dog onto its back. (no matter WHAT Cesar Milan says ) You can be firm with your puppy without these dominance rolls, which don't teach the puppy anything other than that you are much bigger than them, and kind of scary. You want to build a GOOD relationship with your pup, where the pup will WANT to do what you ask, not "behave" because they are frightened of you.

Please do some reading-up on dominance rolls. I'll see if I can get Dave G. to post some articles for you.


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

A firm "leave it" works for Ted.


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## Havanese_Lady (May 4, 2012)

Well, it worked and hasn't occurred in over eight months, and I think I have a VERY good relationship with my puppy. He's not frightened of me at all so don't worry about the articles. Thanks for your input though.


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## Havanese_Lady (May 4, 2012)

By the way, I'm hurt by your insinuations that I haven't done any reading on the subject, and that my dog is frightened of me. For your information, I have been raising dogs for over twenty years, from Havanese to mutts to Great Danes, and contrary to what you might think I know a thing or two about dogs.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Havanese_Lady said:


> By the way, I'm hurt by your insinuations that I haven't done any reading on the subject, and that my dog is frightened of me. For your information, I have been raising dogs for over twenty years, from Havanese to mutts to Great Danes, and contrary to what you might think I know a thing or two about dogs.


I might suggest that you've been reading the wrong articles. I don't mean to be critical but much has been written on this topic. You may have gotten away with your actions. But that doesn't mean that it is advised, or benefitial in the long run. Lot's of risk comes with alpha rolls. Wolves don't do this to their young nor do any other canids. Why should we? Pick a number 1-74.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Havanese_Lady said:


> By the way, I'm hurt by your insinuations that I haven't done any reading on the subject, and that my dog is frightened of me. For your information, I have been raising dogs for over twenty years, from Havanese to mutts to Great Danes, and contrary to what you might think I know a thing or two about dogs.


People have been training dogs with heavy-handed, force-based methods for years. That doesn't mean we should keep using those methods now that we have scientific proof that there are better, positive based training methods that are not based on out-dated and incorrect beliefs about what dog sor wolves do or did "in the wild".


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## Charleysmom (Dec 6, 2011)

davetgabby said:


> I might suggest that you've been reading the wrong articles. I don't mean to be critical but much has been written on this topic. You may have gotten away with your actions. But that doesn't mean that it is advised, or benefitial in the long run. Lot's of risk comes with alpha rolls. Wolves don't do this to their young nor do any other canids. Why should we? Pick a number 1-74.


Pick a number 1-74??? What does that mean? Interesting thread. I am so faor all the pistive based training. I think it makes for a happier dog and owner and a much better relationship.


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## Havanese_Lady (May 4, 2012)

I didn't realize that this had to be stated but I guess I'll start off with, we are PEOPLE not wolves. I'm not talking about doing anything vicious and you're making me sound like I'm running a dog fighting ring. By the way David T., when you start off by saying you're not being critical and then go on to be critical, it defeats the purpose. My dog is just that, a dog. I love him dearly, but he is supposed to know who is on the top of the ladder, I've read several training books saying so. Letting your dog rule the household is as stupid as parents saying they are "friends" with their kids.

This whole forum is becoming about how horrible I am meanwhile Lise is looking for advice. She has no obligation to take mine, and I'm sure she won't since I'm being made out to be the antichrist of dog owners. You're all sounding extremely self-righteous. I'll just agree to disagree with you. 

I JUST started posting yesterday and I was happy to find a forum with people who had the same breed and I'm so turned off by it now.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Havanese_Lady said:


> I didn't realize that this had to be stated but I guess I'll start off with, we are PEOPLE not wolves. I'm not talking about doing anything vicious and you're making me sound like I'm running a dog fighting ring. By the way David T., when you start off by saying you're not being critical and then go on to be critical, it defeats the purpose. My dog is just that, a dog. I love him dearly, but he is supposed to know who is on the top of the ladder, I've read several training books saying so. Letting your dog rule the household is as stupid as parents saying they are "friends" with their kids.
> 
> This whole forum is becoming about how horrible I am meanwhile Lise is looking for advice. She has no obligation to take mine, and I'm sure she won't since I'm being made out to be the antichrist of dog owners. You're all sounding extremely self-righteous. I'll just agree to disagree with you.
> 
> I JUST started posting yesterday and I was happy to find a forum with people who had the same breed and I'm so turned off by it now.


I'm sorry you have such a closed mind to a positive based approach to training that you are unwilling to learn from the most up to date SCIENTIFICALLY BASED behavior modification techniques. There is nothing that says that you can't BOTH be your dog's "friend" (if that's the term you want to use... It's not my term) AND expect good behavior. And you can GET consistently good behavior and a dog that HAPPILY looks to you as his leader WITHOUT alpha rolls and other force-based techniques. Dogs properly trained with positive-based techniques and training programs do NOT "rule their households". That's what UNTRAINED, poorly trained and spoiled dogs do.

We welcome EVERYONE here, actually, whether they have a Havanese or not. But you will find that the majority of people here do believe in positive based training methods. When someone suggests an antiquated, force-based technique for "training" a dog, you will find that we WILL come forward to offer better, newer, SCIENTIFICALLY BASED positive-based training methods every time.

I hope you can see that we are not saying anything about "how horrible you are" (your words, not mine). I am assuming that you are a caring, loving dog owner who is misinformed about current best training practices. ALPHA ROLLS ARE NOT best practice. They are an unnecessary, force-based technique. Lise has been around the forum long enough for me to know that she is perfectly capable of standing up for herself, asks good questions, and can sort out the wheat from the chaff in this discussion.


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

I'm good in all this, really guys! Although I'm new to Havs I hve been a dog owner for over 25 years. I have owned Scotties and a boxer during the past years. The Havanese is a very different breed. Much smarter than either of the other 2 so far although those small bladders are a challenge! I am just gathering info a its very important for me to do this right. Ted hopefully will join me in doing therapy work. I need him to be a calm and loving dog that is comfortable in a hospital setting or a retirement home setting. This passage is in honour of my Mom who passed away in 2006 of cancer. A therapy dog came in days before she lapsed into a coma and she cried with joy and so did I. Thats what I want to do for other paliative care patients as well. That lady that came in with her beautiful lab ended up in a horrific accident that next winter and both of them perished. Everyone here needs to calm down. Its all goodeace:


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## Gabs (Apr 15, 2012)

Havanese Lady - I just wanted to let you know that didnt think negatively of you at all! Welcome to the forum, & I hope you stay  , I'm very new here too and there is lots of great info to be found on the site. 

We are so lucky to have the sweetest dogs in the world to share our lives with 

Lise, that puts things into perspective...count your blessings. Best of luck with Ted, it's a beautiful thing you are doing with him.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Havanese_Lady said:


> I didn't realize that this had to be stated but I guess I'll start off with, we are PEOPLE not wolves. I'm not talking about doing anything vicious and you're making me sound like I'm running a dog fighting ring. By the way David T., when you start off by saying you're not being critical and then go on to be critical, it defeats the purpose. My dog is just that, a dog. I love him dearly, but he is supposed to know who is on the top of the ladder, I've read several training books saying so. Letting your dog rule the household is as stupid as parents saying they are "friends" with their kids.
> 
> This whole forum is becoming about how horrible I am meanwhile Lise is looking for advice. She has no obligation to take mine, and I'm sure she won't since I'm being made out to be the antichrist of dog owners. You're all sounding extremely self-righteous. I'll just agree to disagree with you.
> 
> I JUST started posting yesterday and I was happy to find a forum with people who had the same breed and I'm so turned off by it now.


 If I seemed critical , I appologize, I simply mean to say that I think the articles you read are wrong. The huge consensus of the dog training world would agree that alpha rolls and the whole dominance , be the boss concept is dangerous and counterproductive. If Karen and I seemed harsh, it is because this is a passionate topic with us. We will voice our concerns ,whenever we feel something is detrimental to positive and dog friendly methods. Please do not generalize with "this whole forum " type statements. If you want information on this topic, I have 74 articles but will leave you with just one. It is by the largest dog training organization in the world. There are numerous other organizations that back this statement and countless numbers of the best dog trainers in the world. Unfortunately there are also others that disregard these statements but they are a small minority. Karen mentioned one such person. Learn from the professionals that know what they're talking about, APDT , the Association Of Pet Dog Trainers and AVSAB , American Veteranary Society of Animal Behaviorists. Here is APDT position statement http://www.apdt.com/about/ps/dominance.aspx


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## Havanese_Lady (May 4, 2012)

Karen, I'm trying to agree to disagree and put this whole thing to rest and you call me closed minded? You seem just lovely.

Dave T., thank you for the article. I appreciate the input and I'll definitely read it over.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Havanese_Lady said:


> Karen, I'm trying to agree to disagree and put this whole thing to rest and you call me closed minded? You seem just lovely.
> 
> Dave T., thank you for the article. I appreciate the input and I'll definitely read it over.


Thank you, you are very welcome.


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