# Ethical Question?



## KATEandROBERT (Jul 27, 2009)

My husband and I have an 11 month old Havanese. Our downstairs neighbors have a 6 month old Yorkie who is staying with us for the week while his parents are away for a wedding. The Yorkie seems like a very happy dog and I know his parents completely adore him but my husband and I are very concerned about how skinny he is and how little we were told to feed him--1/4 cup scoop twice a day. 

Now I know that he's not a Havanese, which means he actually likes food, but he wolfs down his meals so quickly it's shocking. And he is SO skinny. He's not even enjoyable to pet because you can feel all his bones poking out. 

We don't know what to do. We are so tempted to feed him more because it seems like he really needs it. But, he's not our dog and we know his parents do care about him and probably think they are doing everything right. At the same time, we feel like we're participating in this little guy's malnourishment. 

What is the ethical way to handle this? Should we just turn a blind eye? Call his vet behind his parents' backs? Email his parents while they're on vacation and tell them our concerns? Any thoughts or suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks!


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Well having two naturally thin dogs myself (they are that way physically), I will answer in the way I would prefer someone who was concerned about my dog handle it  Feed him more if you really feel like he needs it while he is at your house. He is a young pup and maybe the excitement of being in a new place and with a new dog to play with he might need more food. I wouldn't go so far as to call their vet but have a conversation with them about him acting really hungry and maybe play dumb and say you forgot how much and read he should be getting X amount. A white lie is probably better as if someone approached me saying they called my vet because my dogs were malnourished, I would probably be pretty reactive.

I have a girlfriend who teases me (I would say all of her dogs are overweight!) that if my dogs skip a meal animal control is coming. She also couldn't believe how picky they are! And after staying with me for a week, I think she is rest assured my dogs just eat as much as they need and they just burn it off. The run everywhere her big dogs do. 

On the otherhand, I don't worry about my dogs (well one) overeating. Also structurally a yorkie should feel lighter and thinner than a hav so you could just not be used to having a tiny dog.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Okay it has been awhile since I fed kibble so I went and looked at NV's feeding guide and a 5lb (just guessing here) puppy should get 1 and 1/8th cup of kibble per day. So I would read the bag and then maybe have a conversation. Maybe they forgot to consider more food as the dog got older!?!?


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## margaretandluigi (Mar 12, 2008)

I try to keep my dogs quite thin because they are agility dogs. My Carin only gets 1/4 of a cup twice a day (and he's 16 pounds). My border collie, on the other hand, had discovered the cat food and is now fat. (Although my vet commented that it was nice to see her put on some weight. <G>) I would just mention when they return that he seems a little skinny. As long as he's active and alert, its probably better for him to be on the thin side.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

this is a tough one. I would certainly not call the vet or write them on vacation unless you really think it is a case of abuse. Especially if you know and like them and feel they are good pup-parents. I know our vet likes dogs to be on the very thin side. And I have felt some very skinny and healthy Havanese (which our dogs are not) 

But I also think they have entrusted you with his care, so a few more treats here and there (or 1/8 of a cup of kibble as treats ) probably would not hurt him for a week. It would also help you to gauge if he is happier, has more energy, seems better in anyway and if so you could then broach it gently with his parents. That you noticed he seemed so hungry so you gave him a bit more... ask them if perhaps he should be getting more? (But then again, my boys are not skinny.)

I know a lot of people don't really know how much they feed. where you may be feeding a level 1/4 cup they may be feeding a heaping. 

Do you have the kibble bag? how much is supposed to get? recommended amounts are just a ball park.


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## hartman studio (Feb 14, 2008)

My 8 pound havanese gets 1/4 cup kibble twice a day and she is 2 years old- she frequently does not eat it all and many times skips a meal-BUT every kibble bag I've seen usually suggests a puppy get almost double what a mature dog gets. Only you can decide, but what about a "heaping" 1/4 cup and extra treats.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ama0722 said:


> Okay it has been awhile since I fed kibble so I went and looked at NV's feeding guide and a 5lb (just guessing here) puppy should get 1 and 1/8th cup of kibble per day. So I would read the bag and then maybe have a conversation. Maybe they forgot to consider more food as the dog got older!?!?


OTOH, Kodi is 17 lbs, and a good weight (you can feel his ribs, but he has a good layer of flesh, and lots of muscle) and he gets only a rounded 1/4 cup measure twice a day. He's been eating that since I got him. When he was younger, he would skip a lot of meals. Now he might skip one meal per week.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I think 1/4th cup twice a day is about right myself. I take care of dogs that are boarded at the vet clinic and I have taken care of many tiny dogs...That is about the amount I'd feed if we had no owner instructions. 

If you can feel the ribs...that is a good thing...


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## Rita Nelson (Jul 13, 2009)

I don't know if the brand of kibble he's getting makes a difference or not, but Tucker eats Orijen and he gets 1/2 cup twice a day. He's 18 lbs. and it's easy to feel his ribs. His vet says he's just a good, healthy weight for his size. So, I would think a little Yorkie getting 1/4 cup twice a day would be sufficient.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

On the other hand, Kate, you say "He's not even enjoyable to pet because you can feel all his bones poking out." That's way beyond just being able to feel his ribs. I'd say while you are keeping him it wouldn't hurt to give him a little more, see how he does, and then gently talk to his parents about your concern, (phrases gently and non-aggresively.) 

If someone was watching my Tucker, I'd want them to be comfortable in doing so. If they felt he needed a little more food for a week, that certainly wouldn't harm him.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I wouldn't give more than they recommended. Here's a Body Condition Score article. http://vet.osu.edu/1851.htm


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Nice, easy, quick reference, Dave.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Part of an article. 

Seventy years after a classic Cornell nutritional
study showed that cutting rations dramatically
prolongs rats' lives, nutrition scientists have come
up with even more evidence of the benefit of
slender diets: A recently completed 14-year
study found that dogs forced to eat 25
percent less than their littermates of the same
balanced diet lived significantly longer and
suffered fewer canine diseases.
In an age of increasing incidence of obesity
among Americans, "maybe it's time we watched
what the rats and the dogs are eating," advises
George Lust, a Cornell professor of veterinary
medicine and a collaborator in the experiment
with dogs, sponsored by the Nestlé Purina Pet
Care Co.
A specialist in bone and joint diseases in animals,
Lust saw the underfed dogs incurring much less
canine hip dysplasia (CHD) and subsequent
osteoarthritis, compared with dogs that were fed
the portions indicated on the pet food packages.
The dogs on reduced rations also lived nearly
two years longer.


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang (May 21, 2007)

I'm 100% with Dave on this for exactly the reasons he shares above.

Pepper is just under 13 lbs and he gets 1/4 cup of Solid Gold Just Wee Bits kibble twice a day, plus a few treats here & there (not a lot). He is very fit, though he would easily munch up more if he could. 

Our neighbor has a Yorkie and that dog is built skinnier, smaller, all around more fragile than our hearty Havanese. You can't really compare a Yorkie body to a Havanese one. So please keep that in mind.

I would say go ahead and give him a little extra food or treats for the week he's with you but keep in mind that, for a dog that small, even one pound overweight makes a huge difference on those little joints and bones.


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## Judy -- Toby & Jaime's mo (Apr 21, 2007)

We feed Orejin and Dori gets a scant 1/4 cup two times per day, but they do get a number of Mother Hubbard little treats throughout the day (for all the good things they do!). She has a lean just right physique. I think a lot of suggested feedings are too much for the avery age dog -- so you really have to watch. Now a growing puppy would get more I would think, but I have not looked at any puppy food bags for a long time.


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

I think the dog food bags just want to sell more dog food.....lol I, too, only feed Abby 1/4 cup twice a day since we got her at eight months. She was 7.3 lbs. then and now at three is 8.3 lbs. Our vet said he would consider her to be a little on the thin side but that he thinks she is just fine.

I am always careful to follow other people's rules - even my daughter's rules for our grandchildren (most of the time!). I would not want someone to feed Abby more than I wanted her to have because I want her to stay healthy for a long time. I think it is also a matter of respecting the wishes of the owner. A few treats here and there should be acceptable, though.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

My two get 1/4 cup each, 2xper day with some chicken, turkey, etc. Kodi is 17 lbs and Shelby is 13 lbs.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Ok, now I know I'm way overfeeding! My guys get 4 primal nuggets, plus tons of treat!! Thanks for the article Dave. I have to stop giving in to their hungry little sad eyes!!! I know I'm the one who need the help

Any advice on ignoring them, when they sit by the treat door and paw at it?!


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Dave, just looked at that chart. Looks like my boys are moderate, and Bella is thin. Is moderate ok? Or should I put the boys on a diet to be thin?


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## klomanchiodo (Jul 5, 2010)

i do a lot of sitting for a friend that has two smaller yorkies. I have one standard yorkie (10.5 lbs). We feed our yorkie 1/4 cup twice a day. The two small yorkies get the same amount. They don't always eat all that is put down. In all three cases the dogs have very diffent builds and frames. General, the standard yorkie, is all muscle and very sturdy, but not overweight. The smallest, at 3..5 lbs, feels like skin and bones. You can wrap your thumb and forefinger around her neck. If the dogs are very active and behaving like they are still in need of food (looking in the bowls, digging in the bowls, licking the bowls, we will put a small amount of food down.

You can let your neigbors know about the yorkie's behavior in terms of food and let them know your concerns. Just be gentle, not judgemental. People like to know that others love their dogs and want the best for them.


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## Miss Paige (Apr 4, 2008)

I wish Frannie would eat-anything-she is eating less and less each day. She gets 2oz in the AM-2oz at lunch time and 2oz at supper. But she has taken a real dislike to her food-meds in them is probably the reason. I am lucky if she eats half a bowl at any of the meals.

Pat


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## kudo2u (Mar 7, 2009)

How familiar are you with Yorkies? Is he really thin for a Yorkie, or is he really thin for a Havanese?

Look at a Greyhound (a healthy one that is the appropriate weight) and look at an English Bulldog (a health one that is the appropriate weight). If you're used to a bulldog and are given a greyhound, you're probably going to think there is something REALLY wrong with the greyhound.

If you feel the owners are responsible and would not want to harm their puppy, then they have probably researched the breed and are following sound practices.

Having said that, I wouldn't hesitate to give him a *rounded* measurement twice a day, as opposed to a flat measurement. If you supplement your dog with healthy, appropriate treats, go ahead and give a couple to the Yorkie throughout the day as well. See how it goes. 

If he starts to become picky (choosing treats over his regular meals) then he's obviously not underfed. If he starts to leave some on his plate or skip meals, then again, he is getting plenty.

If he still inhales everything you put in front of him, I would be up front with the owners, but in a very nonchalant, "oh, by the way" kind of format. I would just tell them that you fed the requested amount, but that he still seemed hungry, and you didn't know if he was given treats/supplements during the day, so you allowed him to share in what you typically provided for your dog.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

I want to weight in on this one. My elderly mother literally killed her little dachound by overfeeding. We kept telling her that she was feeding to much, but the little dog begged and she gave her more food. Well her little back broke--literally broke. The vet tried to save her; but nothing could be done. We had her put down and when my husband went to get her for burial, he said that it was obvious that she was just like a fat sack of sausage. He is constantly fussing at me for giving Rosie extra because he doesn't want that to happen to her. I can feel her ribs, so she is not fat. But that being said, she would literally eat herself to death. If I give food she will eat until she throws up, so I have to give her the 1/4 cup twice a day and very little extra. The average yorkie that I see is not over 5 pounds. Some are much smaller. There little bodies cannot stand the stress of extra weight. I would just feed what she was used to and if it bothers you, just remember a little dachound that died way to early from overfeeding.


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## sprorchid (Mar 30, 2010)

If you are really worried, call a local reputable yorkie breeder to see what the body type should be (where it's supposed to be boney). My neighbor has a standard yorkie. He's 4 yrs old, and usually 9-10 lbs, he always seems fine to me, but a month ago I was over for a playdate, and I picked him up and he was notably thinner. so I asked wuz up wit dat? and she said that they've been more careful with ppl food and treats, and he thinned out. btw he's on a raw diet, with his brother, a great dane.

anyway, he's never been boney. you can feel his ribs and he's sleek, but can't feel the hip bones or anything like that.
good luck.

Oh, btw IMHO you can't judge a dog's level of hunger, or if they are underfed by how fast he eats. my 1/2 hav pup has always eaten like a grandma with no teeth, super slow. and he only eats 1 or 2 mouthfuls at a time and walks away like a cat. wierdo. and my big dogs (120+ lbs), have always swallowed their food down in 1 minute flat or less. none them was ever starving.


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## AKathy (Mar 15, 2008)

Stella weighs around 14 pounds and if she eats 1/2 cup a day it's pushing it. She free feeds and really doesn't eat much at all. I talked to the vet who assured me that a half cup a day was more than enough for her. And as a dog owner, I wouldn't be too happy if my pet sitter didn't follow my instructions on feeding. If you're concerned, I would talk to them when they get back but wouldn't make any changes on my own.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

I'd feed him more! Puppies need more food, they burn up more calories, just like little kids. I feed mine 1 cup each per day...they are 10 months and 6 months!


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Hmm, I also agree that you need to feel the Yorkie's ribs to see if it he really is underweight or not. I agree with Julie that you should be able to feel ribs! From what I've seen, most people overfeed their dogs and don't realize it - so if they think that is "normal", then a dog at a healthier weight might be incorrectly perceived as underweight.

I usually have the opposite dilemma - the dogs we dogsit occasionally are overweight. I feed them a little bit less - not a lot, but just a little.


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## LuvCicero (Mar 31, 2008)

Cicero eats slow and only around 1/2 cup a day with a few training treats. My daughter has a 4 lb Yorkie that eats twice as much as Cicero and can suck it down faster than a Hoover. She will not eat any treat. A Yorkie and a Hav's body build is completely different. I think the rib test is a good thing to go by.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

And so much depends on energy level. Havanese are pretty mellow compared to yorkies. I am curious Karen and Rita since you have Havs closer to my boys size...what are the calories of what you feed? Checking the boys on that quick chart they are both moderate (at the moment) I know my vet would prefer them thin.


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

We had a very petite yorkie for 14 years. She had somewhere between 1/8-1/4 cup of kibble twice a day. Sometimes she ate like a starving wolf, especially if another dog or a cat she thought might get her food was around. Other times she would eat a few bites, stick her nose up in the air and walk off. 

She never weighed more than 5 lbs her entire life and even at her heaviest, her back bone had a tendency to stick up. She was always very fragile feeling to hold.

Our vets always felt she was at a healthy weight except towards the end of her life when she could no longer absorb nutrients and began wasting away.

If the dog is a small boned yorkie, has healthy looking skin & bright, alert eyes along with good activity levels, I would not be at all concerned.

As others mentioned, the overall structure of a yorkie is very different than a hav.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I went back and did my own calorie count. My BIG boys-- 18 and 23 lbs-- get 5 raw medallions each a day which is 325 calories. If they get more than that they gain weight. So that is equivalent to 1/3 cup twice a day of most of the high protein, grain free kibbles which weigh in about 450-500 calories a cup. So I think a 1/4 cup for a tiny Yorkie is probably fine. A ball of energy is just going to be skinner.


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## LoudRam (May 23, 2010)

Reading this thread it seems like I'm overfeeding Ruffles. She gets 1 cup (actual measuring cup) a day. She free feeds and usually takes all day to eat it. She usually ends up eating between 3/4 and 1 cup with very few treats. She's about 11 lbs. You can feel her ribs with a little meat on them but she's only a year old and still very active. When we got her she was 9 lbs. She gets C&P Ultramix adult dog food. This amount is what the bag recommends for her weight. Is this too much?

The one pic of her shaved is when we first got her a few months ago (9 lbs.). The other pic is from two weeks ago (11 lbs.). In the first 4 weeks she jumped those two lbs and in the last 4 weeks she leveled off at 11 lbs.


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## LuvCicero (Mar 31, 2008)

Ohh, look at that face. She sure is cute!! Her weight looks fine to me. I can remember when Cicero had a jump in weight and I thought he was going to be a big boy, but he leveled off at around a year also and has stayed the same. He was more active around a year than he is now at 2 1/2 and some days he only wants one meal, with his few treats which are mostly veggies.

Tell Ruffles to keep that cute girly figure!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Missy said:


> And so much depends on energy level.  Havanese are pretty mellow compared to yorkies. I am curious Karen and Rita since you have Havs closer to my boys size...what are the calories of what you feed? Checking the boys on that quick chart they are both moderate (at the moment) I know my vet would prefer them thin.


I can't find any calorie listing on the bag or the web site. I do know that the bag suggests 1-1 1/2 cups for a dog between 10-20 lbs. So Kodi eats much less than "suggested", even though he is very active.

You've felt him... I guess I'd put him somewhere just to the high side of "thin". Would you agree? You can definitely feel his ribs and spine, but he's very well muscled and, even when wet down, doesn't look "skinny". And I don't think his skin and coat could possibly be in better condition.

On heavy training days, he does get more calories because of his training treats. (which I also make sure are high-quality, good food (usually home made)) But he gets less training treats now than when he was younger, just because he knows the ropes better now, and needs less food reinforcers. Mostly the treats are for new behaviors, cleaning up position or in distracting environments. (and, of course, rewards at the end of a good course!!!<g>)

He is usually (but not always) eager for his food at meal time, but doesn't ask for more in between, so I'm not sure he'd eat a lot more even if he had the choice. Yesterday he had a very busy day with agility, then a play date, then spent the afternoon in the yard with us while we were making him more jumps. He was so tired he fell asleep without eating.<g>


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

LoudRam said:


> Reading this thread it seems like I'm overfeeding Ruffles. She gets 1 cup (actual measuring cup) a day. She free feeds and usually takes all day to eat it. She usually ends up eating between 3/4 and 1 cup with very few treats. She's about 11 lbs. You can feel her ribs with a little meat on them but she's only a year old and still very active. When we got her she was 9 lbs. She gets C&P Ultramix adult dog food. This amount is what the bag recommends for her weight. Is this too much?
> 
> The one pic of her shaved is when we first got her a few months ago (9 lbs.). The other pic is from two weeks ago (11 lbs.). In the first 4 weeks she jumped those two lbs and in the last 4 weeks she leveled off at 11 lbs.


How old is Ruffles? I agree that she looks fine now, but if she is full grown, that was a big weight jump in a short period of time. It might have been just adjusting to "normal" for her body after the stress of not having her own family. But I'd keep a close eye on her weight, and be ready to back off if she starts putting more weight on.(unless she's still growing as opposed to JUST putting weight on) A lean dog is a healthy dog!


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

KATEandROBERT said:


> My husband and I have an 11 month old Havanese. Our downstairs neighbors have a 6 month old Yorkie who is staying with us for the week while his parents are away for a wedding. The Yorkie seems like a very happy dog and I know his parents completely adore him but my husband and I are very concerned about how skinny he is and how little we were told to feed him--1/4 cup scoop twice a day.
> 
> Now I know that he's not a Havanese, which means he actually likes food, but he wolfs down his meals so quickly it's shocking. And he is SO skinny. He's not even enjoyable to pet because you can feel all his bones poking out.
> 
> ...


His owners may be back by now but I would be very upset if you did not follow my direction on feeding my dogs. Is he acting lethargic, no energy? If not I would stay with what they feed and keep a friend. Young healthy dogs are usually thin. 1/4 cup of EVO is what my girls get twice a day and they are not thin at all, in fact I would say they could eat less but I just can't go any lower.


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

LoudRam said:


> Reading this thread it seems like I'm overfeeding Ruffles. She gets 1 cup (actual measuring cup) a day. She free feeds and usually takes all day to eat it. She usually ends up eating between 3/4 and 1 cup with very few treats. She's about 11 lbs. You can feel her ribs with a little meat on them but she's only a year old and still very active. When we got her she was 9 lbs. She gets C&P Ultramix adult dog food. This amount is what the bag recommends for her weight. Is this too much?
> 
> The one pic of her shaved is when we first got her a few months ago (9 lbs.). The other pic is from two weeks ago (11 lbs.). In the first 4 weeks she jumped those two lbs and in the last 4 weeks she leveled off at 11 lbs.


Very cute. Her weight looks good to me, if she continued to gain I would cut her back. If not, I would leave the amount the same. As she gets older and less active you may need to adjust the amount.


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## LoudRam (May 23, 2010)

krandall said:


> How old is Ruffles? I agree that she looks fine now, but if she is full grown, that was a big weight jump in a short period of time. It might have been just adjusting to "normal" for her body after the stress of not having her own family. But I'd keep a close eye on her weight, and be ready to back off if she starts putting more weight on.(unless she's still growing as opposed to JUST putting weight on) A lean dog is a healthy dog!


She's about 1 year old. With her coming from a rescue we have no idea when her birthday is. Over the past month she's stop gaining. I have a feeling that she's just about done growing. She feels like she's a good weight when I feel her ribs. She never gets more than 1 cup a day even if she wanted it. I know being overweight is not a good thing and I want to make sure that she doesn't get that way. My sis-in-law has a Jack Russell and a Bull Dog and they are both huge. I told her the other day that they both needed "wide load" signs taped to their butts. Our friend has a Hav too and he's fat as well. I want to avoid that.

Thanks everyone for all your input and I'm sorry for hijacking the thread.

Now...:focus:


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## KATEandROBERT (Jul 27, 2009)

Thanks for all your help and advice, everyone! 
We came to realize that there wasn't that much we could do in just five days anyway so we stuck to the owners' instructions, with a few extra treats now and then. He did have A LOT of energy and I know his parents really love him, so we eventually felt we didn't need to be so worried. Maybe we're just used to our fluffy Havanese. All that hair makes him feel more full and squishy 
Thanks again! Much appreciated


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

Glad you were able to make a decision and feel good about it. As Missy said in a post earlier today - sometimes we need to get some discussion going before we can decide what we think (or something to that effect!).


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

As long as they love him, I'm sure they're doing everything they think is in his best interest. It's good that you were able to come to terms with it.


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