# HELP!



## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

Hello all!
we have had Tillie for a little over a month and she is doing great... BUT she HATES her crate IF I'm not in bed. At night, she will stay in there for 10 hrs and we will never hear a peep out of her, if I take a nap during the day, not a peep. BUT getting her INTO the crate is impossible, she flat out REFUSES to go in, I fill her kong with PB and cooked hamburger meat, or chicken and she will NOT take the bait (so to speak!). And if I put her in there and then leave, she cries and cries and cries, I think at some point she settles down and I'm never gone more than 2-3 hrs once a day, because when we come home, she is quiet and will stay quite while I bring groceries in, get the kids in and settled with a snack, change clothes, etc.... BUT she never even touches her Kong... it still has the meat and everything in it when I let her out of her crate. 
I put her in during the day for random times while I am doing laundry, or what not and she does fine, but if she senses, or knows that I am leaving, she FREAKS out. Oh and she whines if she can't see me at all times.... have i already messed this sweet little girl up? How can I help her enjoy her crate and not dread it so much? I feel like we are doing everything we've been told and nothing is working... anybody else go through this??
Tillie is almost 5 months old... thanks. eace:


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## shimpli (Mar 24, 2010)

She is beautiful.  OMG so cute. Do you have an expen? Maybe she feels better there since she has more space to play and she has been in the crate during the night. I had the same problem with Ache, she always cried and barked if I was not around but with time, she is much better with it. At the beginning I carried the crate with me all over the house, then I put it near me where she could hear me but not see me. Then I began leaving the crate far from me for short periods of time. Slowly, she is accepting it. Since Ache sleeps in an expen, I try to use the crate more during the day. Good luck with that princess.


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## irishnproud2b (Jan 13, 2009)

From your description, my guess is that you have a Havanese ound: They sure do want/need their people, don't they? I agree that I would try confining her (when necessary) in something different than what she is in all night to sleep. An ex-pen is a great idea, but even a different type of crate? I know it does get better as they get older and start realizing you are coming back when you leave, but we ended up getting a second Hav to keep our little nervous wreck company. It helped somewhat. We are able to gate our two in our kitchen when we leave. That helps, but neither of them will eat a bite when we are gone. Maybe another Havie thing? Anyway, it will get better, and there are a lot of experienced Hav owners here that can give you good ideas. They have helped me tremendously. Your little one is adorable, by the way


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I think the ex-pen might be your answer. From the start with Ruby I had the crate in the ex-pen, with the door to the crate open. She could choose to go in if she wanted to, or she could have the additional space. It worked out great. However, in all fairness, by then I had both boys so she was never alone.

You'll get advice from others. Just know, this too shall pass. It all takes time with these little ones. She is beyond adorable.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Cute picture!!!!

I don't really have much to add but support! We never did the crate thing here. I know Gucci likes to sit at the door and wait for me to come home, this started around 5/6 months, when I started trusting her to be outside of the xpen in the living room kitchen/foyer..gated off, but she'd never leave the front door or do anything, so free roam happened pretty quickly after that, but that is an individual choice based on if they get into much. I suspect if she was chewing up everything in the house and peeing everywhere, it would've been a bit longer..

Maybe put her where she can watch for you? Most havs like to watch for their humans to come home  near a window? or door maybe?

Kara


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

I don't believe in crates except to transport a large dog in. Otherwise to me they are just cages. I got Rosie a play pen (regular baby one from walmart) to use up stairs. I didn't want her to fall down the stairs. She outgrew it though pretty quick. She follows me everywhere in the house. Sits outside the bathroom doorl. Right now she is lying beside my desk chair. I just never got the theory behind crate-training. Rosie sleeps with us, but other dogs have had their own bed and slept in them. Excuse me this morning, the air coursing through my brain has me all messed up. I was not designed to live on this much oxygen. Therefore, I am not making my point about the crate thing.


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## SnickersDad (Apr 9, 2010)

What an adorable little girl you have there! Love the name Tillie too, our last cat was named Tillie....

Anyway What all have you tried during the day? Remember Tillie is only 5 months old - still quite a baby. I think you should make it part of your daily training regimen to train her into her cage - leave for a short while (let her whine and Cry) - then come back with praise and a treat -- repeat -- repeat -- repeat. Gradually increase the time you are gone - she should soon start accepting the fact that the crate means more than just "go to bed".

I'm sure others will provide greater insight.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

thanks for all the input and compliments, we adore Tillie and even though we have always been "cat people" we can barely remember life without her... gosh it must have been BORING... 
and Kathleen, YES, she is a true hav... rests at my feet when I am on the potty and will NOT let me out of her sight!
She sleeps in her x-pen at night in our room and I have been putting her in it when I leave during the day, but maybe I'll have to try something else... I would love to give her free roam and feel like she would probably just rest at the door, waiting for me to come home and be fine, but my husband would like her enclosed somehow while I am gone for her safety and to continue with her (terrific) potty training!!
I wonder if we get another x-pen and set it up in the living room if that would help...?
Although we do have to put a lid on it, because she already jumps out of it and we had to take a panel off the x-pen and use it as a lid on her bed in our room!!
We'll keep working on it and any and all suggestions are encouraged!!
thanks!!


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## shimpli (Mar 24, 2010)

I think it will help. Ache sleeps in an expen in our bedroom but when I go out I keep her in an expen in the family room. If I put her in the expen in the bedroom and I go out of the bedroom she barks like crazy and it doesn't happen when she stays in the one in the family room. So you should try that...


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## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

oh, i feel your pain! she will get use to it. tough love. we kept our dog in the crate for the first year and then that was it. he's 6 and i wish we would have kept him trained in the crate instead of eliminating after he was a year old. i remember going outside and sitting in my car just to not hear him barking in the crate when he was a puppy. maybe try something new in the kong. and give her the kong filled with treats when you are home and throw it in the crate. that way she doesn't think of it as just a place she has to be when you leave but rather a place to relax and enjoy her filled kong. be patient. it gets easier.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I am a strong believer in crate training, but I am absolutely NOT believer in"tough love", either for puppies OR babies. I never let my babies cry it out, and I didn't do it with Kodi either.

I believe in making the crate seem like the best, safest place in the world... A place that Kodi WANTS to be BY HIS CHOICE. I would strongly urge you to get Susan Garret's "Crate Games" DVD. It will teach you how to make you dog WANT to be in their crate. This drive then can be used to help you in lots of different ways during training.

I can't see how locking a puppy in a crate against their will is ever going to make them want to be in there of their own free will. OTOH, you CAN make a dog not only accept the crate, but really love it.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Very well said Karen.


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## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

i have had several friends who had dogs and told me you just need to walk away when you put them in the crate and they bark, they will eventually get use to the crate. let me say, it was very difficult and i had a very hard time with it. i tried to make it a fun place but never having had a dog, you take what you read and advise from people and apply to your pup. i was glad to read your comment and agree, the crate should be a fun place always. 

we used the crate as a means of house training him. needless to say, once that was accomplished the crate went away. this forum is a wonderful tool, you think you are doing the right thing for your dog and by posting on this forum, people offer you alternative solutions making the process easier and better for everyone involved.


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## SOPHIES-MOM (Oct 4, 2010)

Sophie loves her crate! It's her bed, and the only time she's locked in it is at night next to our bed. She whimpers for about 10 seconds and we don't hear from her again til about 7:30. I put a treat in it when I put her to bed so she goes in herself, and I also put her bully stick in. Sometimes I hear her chewing in the middle of the night. I have a mud room off the kitchen with lots of natural light and I put her in there when I leave her. I put the crate in there with the door open, and she's always in there when I get back. Her crate is lined in a very comfy fuzzy pad, 2 soft blankets, and a stuffed dog.She's 10 weeks old and I got a crate big enough for when she's grown.This is the first time I've used a crate, and now I wouldn't do it any other way. I would not use the "crate training method," where they are in there all the time except when they go potty, but Sophie is doing so well. She's 10 weeks old and brilliant!


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

Augie loves his crate as well, and it is just one of those small plastic travel type crates with a metal grid door. We started training him to it immediately when he came to live with us, strongly advised by his breeder. We may have just lucked out in our training as he is a pretty easy-going fellow. He sleeps in it and retreats to it when he has had enough commotion (as when the birds are out doing their free fly time and screeching through the house). It is in the kitchen and when we get ready to go somewhere, and he realizes he is not going along, he goes into the kitchen and in his crate. I am sure he views it as his 'safe place'. I felt it was important for him to get used to so we could protect him, transport him or ??, mostly for his safety.

We did not have the Crate Games book when we trained Augie, but will get it should we get another Hav. We just started with short times, a minute at first - or maybe even less, door closed, me in the room with him. Gradually increased the time and then after he got used to longer periods, I would go out of the room, and then finally I would go up to the second floor for longer times. He may have whined a bit at first, but he soon realized I would come back.


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## Sissygirl (Aug 8, 2007)

Oh my is she ever cute!!!

Sissy didn't really like us leaving either - for the longest we had sitters but once we started leaving her she did the same thing - so we started a routine.

I hold up my hand and tell her bye - call her to her mat - give her a treat and then leave - we just let her roam and she does great. She normally laid on the mat and waited for us to return. We started out with very short times and now we leave her up to 4 hours by herself. ( she will be 6 in December)

I would probably shut most of the doors in the house for a while (I didn't) but I can see how that might be beneficial to cut down their area. Just leave for maybe 15 minutes and then add time as you go on. Good luck!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

thanks for all the suggestions!
I have attempted giving her the kong in the crate while we are home, she brings it out to the living room! LOL But, if I do lock the crate door, she completely ignores the kong, she typically doesn't cry or bark in the crate when we are home, but when we are leaving she starts getting very anxious and yipping... our biggest problem is getting her to go in BY HERSELF! she will NOT follow a treat or her kong, or even fresh cooked chicken or hamburger and she will NOT go in after it, even at night when she KNOWS we are not leaving, she only goes in the crate by herself to drag out her toys (her favorite game!) to the living room... 
We are having to pick her up and gently put her in with her kong and toys and close the door, but that can't happen forever... any ideas on how to get her to go in the crate on her own??


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Lucille, oxygen is a GOOD thing! :kiss: lol, I personally agree, a crate is a cage...but they can't call it a cage because nobody would buy one~~ I've always found it interesting that mill dogs stay in "cages", not crates.. but that term is only used in that capacity regarding dogs, lol..We have a bad association with cages in our society, we cage criminals, dangerous animals, etc. Mill dogs .. Even though, I did buy a crate/cage, because all of the training books said to do so, it didnt sit well with me and it just didn't seem like a good fit for us...seems like either route you go takes some work, but they eventually adapt to us leaving..



Where is your crate? Can you move it to a different place when you leave than where it is at when you sleep? Because that might be what is flipping her out, she thinks she is going to be alone all night. You could move it to a 'leaving' spot and work up the time from a few minutes..til' ___ and see how that goes.

Some great ideas, so far.. 

Kara


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Here's a quote from Ian Dunbar re. "crate training"

What if I don't like putting my puppy in a crate?

Short-term confinement, whether to a crate or tie-down, is a temporary training measure to help you teach your puppy where to eliminate and what to chew. A dog crate is the best housetraining tool to help you accurately predict when your dog wishes to relieve herself and is the best training tool to help you to teach your puppy to become a chewtoyaholic. Once your puppy has learned to eliminate only in appropriate areas and to chew only appropriate objects, she may be given free run of the house and garden for the rest of her life. You will probably find however, that after just a few days your puppy learns to love her crate and will voluntarily rest inside. Your puppy's very own den is a quiet, comfortable, and special doggy place.
If, on the other hand, your puppy is given unsupervised free run of the house from the outset, the odds are that she will be confined later on - first to the yard, then to the basement, then to a cage in an animal shelter, and then to a coffin. Without a doubt, housesoiling and destructive chewing are the two most prevalent terminal illnesses in dogs. Using a dog crate will help you prevent these problems from ever developing in your puppy.

For the whole article go to http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/errorless-housetraining or if you really need help check out the video Karen mentioned.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

seems I have touched a nerve here with the crate training/free roam... don't want to cause waves, just want the best thing for Tillie!!

I can understand both sides of the crating debate and personally we have chosen to only use the crate (actually it is an x-pen) at night and when I need to leave for short periods of the day. We didn't crate her during the day when we first got her, I just watched her very carefully for signs that she needed to go potty. Thankfully I am at home 90% of the time and was able to devote the time to her that was needed early on, but I don't quite understanding crating a dog and only taking them out of the crate to go potty and then for short play times after they have gone potty. well, i DO understand it, I just couldn't do that to my "baby" . 
Everyone just has to do what is right for their family and thier dog!
We all just want to have our Hav be a well behaved, housetrained member of our family and are doing the best we can!! eace:


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

TilliesMom said:


> seems I have touched a nerve here with the crate training/free roam... don't want to cause waves, just want the best thing for Tillie!!
> 
> I can understand both sides of the crating debate and personally we have chosen to only use the crate (actually it is an x-pen) at night and when I need t9o leave for short periods of the day. We didn't crate her during the day when we first got her, I just watched her very carefully for signs that she needed to go potty. Thankfully I am at home 90% of the time and was able to devote the time to her that was needed early on, but I don't quite understanding crating a dog and only taking them out of the crate to go potty and then for short play times after they have gone potty. well, i DO understand it, I just couldn't do that to my "baby" .
> Everyone just has to do what is right for their family and thier dog!
> We all just want to have our Hav be a well behaved, housetrained member of our family and are doing the best we can!! eace:


Not to worry , there will always be different opinions with this sort of thing. Everyone has their own ways. Everyone has to adapt to their own circumstances. Keep in mind that a crate and an expen are two differnt things. A crate is a short term confinement whereas the xpen is a long term tool. We never used a crate to train Molly,but relied on constant monitoring. My wife was home all the time. I got up three times a night for a while. But we trained her to use her crate and enjoy it. Never locked the door. And never had an accident except for once at six months. (our fault) Everyone is different like I said but this is a valuable tool especially for people who can't do what we did. Thanks for bringing up this very valuable topic. eace:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

SOPHIES-MOM said:


> Sophie loves her crate! It's her bed, and the only time she's locked in it is at night next to our bed. She whimpers for about 10 seconds and we don't hear from her again til about 7:30. I put a treat in it when I put her to bed so she goes in herself, and I also put her bully stick in. Sometimes I hear her chewing in the middle of the night. I have a mud room off the kitchen with lots of natural light and I put her in there when I leave her. I put the crate in there with the door open, and she's always in there when I get back. Her crate is lined in a very comfy fuzzy pad, 2 soft blankets, and a stuffed dog.She's 10 weeks old and I got a crate big enough for when she's grown.This is the first time I've used a crate, and now I wouldn't do it any other way. I would not use the "crate training method," where they are in there all the time except when they go potty, but Sophie is doing so well. She's 10 weeks old and brilliant!


With crate training, the puppy should NOT be left in the crate all the time except for pottying... They should be in the crate when you can't watch them like a hawk. As i, NEVER take your eyes off them.

The goal is to never give the puppy an opportunity to have an accident. That doesn't mean you'll succeed completely... Very few puppies (if any) get all the way through potty training with NO mistakes. However, the fewer they make, the faster they will learn.

I've never heard ANYONE say to keep your puppy locked up in a crate all the time. Potty training is only one SMALL part of the education they need in their first few months with you.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TilliesMom said:


> thanks for all the suggestions!
> I have attempted giving her the kong in the crate while we are home, she brings it out to the living room! LOL But, if I do lock the crate door, she completely ignores the kong, she typically doesn't cry or bark in the crate when we are home, but when we are leaving she starts getting very anxious and yipping... our biggest problem is getting her to go in BY HERSELF! she will NOT follow a treat or her kong, or even fresh cooked chicken or hamburger and she will NOT go in after it, even at night when she KNOWS we are not leaving, she only goes in the crate by herself to drag out her toys (her favorite game!) to the living room...
> We are having to pick her up and gently put her in with her kong and toys and close the door, but that can't happen forever... any ideas on how to get her to go in the crate on her own??


As I said, get the Crate Games DVD. Now that you've developed a situation where the crate has become an aversive, it's going to take some time to change her mind. It will be a process. But the DVD will take you through it step by step. I NEVER have to put Kodi in his crate. If I want him in, I simply say, "Get in your crate!"

But most of the time he chooses to go in because he wants to. He stays in his crate in between turns at Agility classes, and last week, when he finished the course, he blasted right past me and back into his crate. -Sat there wiggling all over he was so pleased with himself.:biggrin1:


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