# Perry's twisted leg surgery



## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Perry had his leg surgery on Tuesday and spent the night at the vets. We picked him up yesterday afternoon and he spent a quiet night. This morning he is very quiet - didn't want to go out and pee this morning (he hobbled around and peed twice yesterday), so keeping an eye on him to see if he just needed the pain meds to kick in or if there is something wrong and need to call the vets.

It was a pretty extensive - 3 hour - surgery. The vet had to cut both the ulna and radius. The bone had a 60 degree twist to it, so they had to cut one bone to create a little more length (and put a pin in it), and the other had to be cut to remove about 1 cm so that they could twist it straight(er) and put a steel plate in. They said they couldn't get it perfectly straight but that the knee and elbow were lined up and that it was straighter than his right one now (the right one is a little crooked but was no where near where the left was). 

He's in a custom molded fiberglass splint and bandages for the next month at least - appointment next week to change the bandages and then in a month for a recheck to see. He is on very strict crate rest for at least 2 months, more likely 3. 

Will take some pics of my poor pathetic puppy when he's not so pookie (he's currently lying in a large crate with his left leg sticking up into the air and I don't want to disturb him).


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Poor boy!!!! I hope the recovery goes smoothly. Sending prayers to you both.


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

I am glad he made it through the surgery ok and I wish him (and you!) a speedy recovery.


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

Poor little Perry🤕. Glad it went ok though, that is one hurdle down! Best of luck for crate rest to him and to you Melissa😘


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

I'm so sorry you and he both are having to go through this, poor little guy. I hope he isn't in much pain, that it passes quickly, and that he recovers well. 🤕


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

With his new soft cone (I still have the frog and will use it, but this one works well too)










His leg bandage











With his medepaw boot (which he has to wear anytime we're outside to ensure that no moisture gets in the bandage - but CAN'T wear inside because it might get damp inside and cause the bandage to get damp.









And in his crate - luckily I used to have a medium size dog so had a large crate around so he's got room inside to move around a little (but not too much) and I can fit his bed in without putting something on the whole crate so he can still move from the bed to the cooler plastic.


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

Oh bless his little heart❤ he doesn’t deserve this, neither of you do!!! I hope this is the beginning of his journey to health and happier times😘😘😘😘😘. I think you’re amazing for rescuing and giving him the life he does deserves💗.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Oh the poor baby. I'm so sorry.


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## LeleRF (Feb 18, 2021)

Awww, he‘s a brave little guy with all he’s gone through, the poor baby. I echo every one’s sentiments and wishes for the recovery time to go quickly. You have a good set up for him there in the pics but I imagine this is all almost second nature to you. Please tell Perry lots of love ❤ is being sent to him from the HF!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Poor baby! And poor you! And when you see how crooked his rich leg is, and hear that THAT is the "Straighter" one... it is amazing, really, that he could get around on them at all! What a stoic little guy! And again, how INCREDIBLY lucky that he ended up in your arms!!!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> Poor baby! And poor you! And when you see how crooked his rich leg is, and hear that THAT is the "Straighter" one... it is amazing, really, that he could get around on them at all! What a stoic little guy! And again, how INCREDIBLY lucky that he ended up in your arms!!!


Yeah when the Dr was like "we couldn't get the left one totally straight, but it's straighter than the right" I thought - he gets around great on the right so "straighter" than that is just awesome . I guess it's all relative because I've never felt that the right was very crooked but that's probably because I was always comparing it to the left, NOT to how they really should be! As you can see in the pics below, the right is turned, but only slightly - so if the left is better than that I'm going to be thrilled.
















He is so incredibly stoic. To look at him you wouldn't think he was in pain or anything - the only way I know for sure that he is/ was was that when I took him out this morning, before his morning meds, he just stood there will his back a little hunched and didn't want to move (after hobbling around twice the night before to pee)... so we went back inside, got breakfast and pain meds and waited an hour or so and went back out, at which point he was happy to hobble around and pee. It makes it hard to figure out the pain management though - the vet did say I could up the gabapentin if he needed, but I can't tell if he needs it. So, just lots of rest right now. I'm sure in a day or two he'll want to move around more. Not much keeps him down for long.



LeleRF said:


> Awww, he‘s a brave little guy with all he’s gone through, the poor baby. I echo every one’s sentiments and wishes for the recovery time to go quickly. You have a good set up for him there in the pics but I imagine this is all almost second nature to you. Please tell Perry lots of love ❤ is being sent to him from the HF!


LOL, yeah, we've been through this a few times . By the end of this year, he will have (cumulatively) been on crate rest/ heavy restriction for a total of about 11-13 months (depending on if we do the "re-do" of his left back knee before the end of the year) of his 5 1/2 years of life. A couple of those rests have been while we were in Kampala, so all he had was his small crate... but the times he's been on restriction while we were in the US we at least had the big crate.

I'm hoping he doesn't get as angry about it this time - and when we do have to leave him alone I will not make the mistake of trying to cover the crate this time. The last time he was in the big crate, I covered it with a blanket when we left and he was so angry that he pulled the blanket through the tiny holes in the wire door - and pulled it so fiercely that it was covered in specks and smears of blood (from his mouth/ teeth) AND it took me well over 1/2 hour (probably closer to an hour) to work it back out he had pulled so much of it in. All of that while being on 3 legs (so how he got the traction is beyond me!) AND wearing a cone!


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

Melissa Brill said:


> Yeah when the Dr was like "we couldn't get the left one totally straight, but it's straighter than the right" I thought - he gets around great on the right so "straighter" than that is just awesome . I guess it's all relative because I've never felt that the right was very crooked but that's probably because I was always comparing it to the left, NOT to how they really should be! As you can see in the pics below, the right is turned, but only slightly - so if the left is better than that I'm going to be thrilled.
> View attachment 174848
> View attachment 174849
> 
> ...


Maybe Perry was imagining that the blanket was his irresponsible breeder🤣🤣🤣🤣. Because that is what I would like to do to them right now on Perry’s behalf😡 either that or force them to have the same operations Perry is having to face🤬🤬. Sorry rant over (I think) it just breaks my heart that he is having to go through this because someone only cared about making money from him, rather than breeding him from healthy parents. I know with nature and health that nothing is guaranteed so I could be doing the breeder a disservice…but I doubt it😠. Finishing on a nicer note lots of love to Perry that crate rest will be 2 months rather than 3. Xx


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## BoosDad (Mar 8, 2020)

Perry - Wishing you a speedy recovery. Boo and Dad


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## Cassandra (Dec 29, 2015)

Wishing Perry a swift recovery as well...what a dog he is to go through all of this in his short life. As said by others, it is so great that he found a caring home with you.


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## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

Poor little guy, he sure is a trooper for all he's been through. Sending many, many positive vibs and hugs to you both. I do believe our dear, sweet pups come into our lives for a reason. Wishing Perry a speedy recovery and many healthy, happy years to look forward to.  Thank you Melissa for being a loving, caring Havi Mom.


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## Mando's Mommy (Dec 8, 2020)

Poor Perry (and you)! He sure is a fighter. Hope he has a smooth, quick recovery!


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

Wishing Perry a quick recovery! You both have been through so much, but agree with the others that he’s lucky to have you!!!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Maybe Perry was imagining that the blanket was his irresponsible breeder🤣🤣🤣🤣. Because that is what I would like to do to them right now on Perry’s behalf😡 either that or force them to have the same operations Perry is having to face🤬🤬. Sorry rant over (I think) it just breaks my heart that he is having to go through this because someone only cared about making money from him, rather than breeding him from healthy parents. I know with nature and health that nothing is guaranteed so I could be doing the breeder a disservice…but I doubt it😠. Finishing on a nicer note lots of love to Perry that crate rest will be 2 months rather than 3. Xx


My understanding is that legs can grow in a twisted fashion if damage to the growth plates occurs before they have closed. This is why jumping from high places and other strenuous activities is discouraged when they are puppies until growth plates have closed. I am not trying to defend a bad breeder but this is another potential cause. Melissa rescued Perry and may not know his full history.









How to Prevent Angular Limb Deformity in Puppies


Find out how you can protect your puppy from angular limb deformity, a type of bone disease caused by a trauma to the growth plate in the leg.




healthypets.mercola.com


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

mudpuppymama said:


> My understanding is that legs can grow in a twisted fashion if damage to the growth plates occurs before they have closed. This is why jumping from high places and other strenuous activities is discouraged when they are puppies until growth plates have closed. I am not trying to defend a bad breeder but this is another potential cause. Melissa rescued Perry and may not know his full history.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That’s a really informative article thanks mudpuppymama😊. Especially useful in the last couple of paragraphs about joint supplements and chiropractic work being able to be used as a preventative measure in puppies!

Yes I was definitely jumping to conclusions because Perry was lucky enough to be rescued by Melissa but you’re right I don’t know his history. 

But to any _cruel_ breeders out there, I am wishing you the exact same treatment you give your animals. And of course I am wishing the _nice _breeders all the joy and love they give theirs😘


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Poor little guy...I'm so happy the surgery is behind you both. I think it's pretty amazing Perry is up and able to hobble around already! He's a lucky little one to have you to love him and make sure he has the best life. Hoping Perry is feeling better soon and recovers quickly.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> That’s a really informative article thanks mudpuppymama😊. Especially useful in the last couple of paragraphs about joint supplements and chiropractic work being able to be used as a preventative measure in puppies!
> 
> Yes I was definitely jumping to conclusions because Perry was lucky enough to be rescued by Melissa but you’re right I don’t know his history.
> 
> But to any _cruel_ breeders out there, I am wishing you the exact same treatment you give your animals. And of course I am wishing the _nice _breeders all the joy and love they give theirs😘


Trust me...the thought of a bad breeder can really get me going. I recall one sad story here where someone got a dog from a bad breeder and it had severe eye problems. She eventually had to have its eyes removed. Yikes. However, I also remind myself that an occasional bad thing can happen even with the best of breeders. For example, Stepsu’s dog has hip dysplasia. And blessings to all those like Melissa who take these less than perfect dogs under their wing!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Maybe Perry was imagining that the blanket was his irresponsible breeder🤣🤣🤣🤣. Because that is what I would like to do to them right now on Perry’s behalf😡 either that or force them to have the same operations Perry is having to face🤬🤬. Sorry rant over (I think) it just breaks my heart that he is having to go through this because someone only cared about making money from him, rather than breeding him from healthy parents. I know with nature and health that nothing is guaranteed so I could be doing the breeder a disservice…but I doubt it😠. Finishing on a nicer note lots of love to Perry that crate rest will be 2 months rather than 3. Xx





mudpuppymama said:


> My understanding is that legs can grow in a twisted fashion if damage to the growth plates occurs before they have closed. This is why jumping from high places and other strenuous activities is discouraged when they are puppies until growth plates have closed. I am not trying to defend a bad breeder but this is another potential cause. Melissa rescued Perry and may not know his full history.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think both things are possibly true. He definitely came from a puppy mill (reading between the lines that they were a "breeder that was going out of business" in West Virginia - though I think that the "going out of business" may have been a lie as well because I also came to suspect that the rescue I got him from is used as a way to get rid of pups that a puppy mill can't sell) - and given that both front legs are twisted I think it leans towards a genetic component. But it is also very possible that he had some damage to the leg/ growth plate before I got him at 8 months old, especially the left one that is so much more twisted. I first noticed the twist when I did his first grooming in Kampala at probably 10 months old and he was cut really short (a completely horrendous grooming job for sure!!) I was shocked by the twist.









The left leg definitely became more bowed as he got older as well.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Thanks everyone for all the really nice things you've all said. He's doing well - definitely able to hobble around but still content to chill out in his crate. I decided to give him his pain meds first thing in the morning then wait a bit before taking him out - don't know if that worked or if he was in less pain this morning but he was ready to hobble around the yard to do his business (though I did pick him up to move him from his pee spot to his preferred pooping area  ). 

As much as you have all said that he's lucky to have gotten me, I feel incredibly fortunate to have the resources (and the foresight to get insurance  ) to be able to do all of these things - not everyone is as lucky as I am to be able to cover these costs even if they wanted to.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Trust me...the thought of a bad breeder can really get me going. I recall one sad story here where someone got a dog from a bad breeder and it had severe eye problems. She eventually had to have its eyes removed. Yikes. However, I also remind myself that an occasional bad thing can happen even with the best of breeders. For example, Stepsu’s dog has hip dysplasia. And blessings to all those like Melissa who take these less than perfect dogs under their wing!


Just to bring you up to date, Stephu's dog does NOT have hip dysplasia. The X-rays were mis-read. The puppy had a soft tissue injury from too much leaping around. His hips are fine, and more than one vet has said that if sent to OFA, would probably be rated as "good". One problem with hip X-rays of small dogs is that if ANY excess pressure is put on the dog while it is being x-rayed, even because the pup is struggling a bit, or if the pup's spine is not aligned EXACTLY straight, you can MAKE a dog with perfectly good hips look really bad. And a vet who is not used to x-raying and evaluating hips on small dogs can draw the wrong conclusion.

I had a similar thing happen when Kodi was about 18 months old and was hospitalized because of a blockage caused by a "Greenie". (Never feed those... different story! LOL!). They did an "abdominal x-ray, and on a small dog, that's basically a "whole body x-ray". The ER vet cam back into the room and said, very casually to me, "I suppose you know that he has an enlarged heart?" *WHAT?!?! *Fortunately, I have a good friend who is a vet, and I sent the X-rays to her. She explained to me that most ER "vets" at the university hospital are interns, and have seen limited number of really small dogs. At the moment that the X-ray was taken, Kodi, who was probably yelling, had expelled all the air from his lungs, so his lungs were at their most deflated, making his heart look large in comparison. And the hearts of small dogs already ARE larger in comparison to the animal than those of larger dogs. There was absolutely NOTHING wrong with Kodi's heart, then or now. The staff cardiologist confirmed that the next day, but the ER doc took several years off my life that night!!!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> Just to bring you up to date, Stephu's dog does NOT have hip dysplasia. The X-rays were mis-read. The puppy had a soft tissue injury from too much leaping around. His hips are fine, and more than one vet has said that if sent to OFA, would probably be rated as "good". One problem with hip X-rays of small dogs is that if ANY excess pressure is put on the dog while it is being x-rayed, even because the pup is struggling a bit, or if the pup's spine is not aligned EXACTLY straight, you can MAKE a dog with perfectly good hips look really bad. And a vet who is not used to x-raying and evaluating hips on small dogs can draw the wrong conclusion.
> 
> I had a similar thing happen when Kodi was about 18 months old and was hospitalized because of a blockage caused by a "Greenie". (Never feed those... different story! LOL!). They did an "abdominal x-ray, and on a small dog, that's basically a "whole body x-ray". The ER vet cam back into the room and said, very casually to me, "I suppose you know that he has an enlarged heart?" *WHAT?!?! *Fortunately, I have a good friend who is a vet, and I sent the X-rays to her. She explained to me that most ER "vets" at the university hospital are interns, and have seen limited number of really small dogs. At the moment that the X-ray was taken, Kodi, who was probably yelling, had expelled all the air from his lungs, so his lungs were at their most deflated, making his heart look large in comparison. And the hearts of small dogs already ARE larger in comparison to the animal than those of larger dogs. There was absolutely NOTHING wrong with Kodi's heart, then or now. The staff cardiologist confirmed that the next day, but the ER doc took several years off my life that night!!!


Wow I am so glad to hear that Otto does not have hip dysplasia. I did not realize that. Anyway, I have the utmost respect for great reputable breeders, however I do believe something bad COULD occasionally happen and I am definitely not going to hold that against them. My nephew was born with an extremely rare birth defect. Sometimes things just happen.

I also think the fifteen or so years we provide care to our dogs is just as important as good genetics. However, great genetics definitely are a plus and there are limits to what can be overcome.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Wow I am so glad to hear that Otto does not have hip dysplasia. I did not realize that. Anyway, I have the utmost respect for great reputable breeders, however I do believe something bad COULD occasionally happen and I am definitely not going to hold that against them. My nephew was born with an extremely rare birth defect. Sometimes things just happen.
> 
> I also think the fifteen or so years we provide care to our dogs is just as important as good genetics. However, great genetics definitely are a plus and there are limits to what can be overcome.


Absolutely things can STILL go wrong any time you roll the genetc dice, no matter HOW careful a breeder is.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

👼😇 There's a special place in Heaven for people who rescue dogs. 👼😇


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

My poor baby is equally impressing me with how stoic and calm he is and breaking my heart every time he does whatever it is (trying to stretch or getting it caught when he moves around) and "screams" because it hurts him. 

The first few days were uneventful. I'm sure he was in pain but he didn't move around much and was very quiet. However, starting on Friday, he must be feeling a little better so is trying to move it a little more (not a lot, he's still super still and quiet) because several times now he's done something that caused him to just scream (you know that really breathy/ high pitched whine that just tears at your soul?) A few times he's sorted himself out when he did it, but the first few I had to jump in and help. One would have been comical if it didn't hurt him so much - at about 3:30am he woke me up with the scream and I found him in his crate on his back but with his left leg against the side of the crate (presumably he rolled and put too much pressure on it and couldn't get back over). Another time he was on my lap and stretched his head down over his left leg and must have pulled something. Last night lying on the bed with me, he was lying on his side and I think tried to stretch his left leg up further and caused the scream. Plus a few times in his crate, I assume because he's moving a little and catches it on something or another. To be honest, it's killing me every time it happens.

Because of it, I'm afraid to leave him alone at all - we went to get pizza yesterday and I took him with us even though we were only going to be gone about 30 minutes. 

Other than that, he seems to be doing well. Eating, drinking, practically running across the yard (as much as you can on about 3 foot of leash) to find the right pee and poop spots.


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

Thanks for the update Melissa, even though it is 💔💔💔💔💔💔when Perry gets his leg caught😔

So nice he has got a little independence to choose where he would prefer to toilet. Hopefully the pain will lessen every single day❤‍🩹xxx


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Thanks for the update! It sounds like he’s improving… it’s just a long, uphill slog! <hugs>


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

I hate hearing about the screams, and it just rips my heart out to even hear, I can imagine how hard this is on you. I'm so sorry, little Perry!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> Thanks for the update! It sounds like he’s improving… it’s just a long, uphill slog! <hugs>


I know that feeling more comfortable is actually "improving" but the pain it puts him in sometimes hurts me, almost as much as (I know not really) him.

Hopefully we're moving in the right direction. Yesterday we had had a few minor whimpers/ screams in the morning but they didn't last long and he resolved them himself. I did bump up his meds yesterday (went back to normal today) so that might have helped. We have weekly appointments (every Wednesday) for bandage changes so will talk to the nurse tomorrow about it to double check that it's ok (and to see when he should be starting to try to use the leg again).


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Sheri said:


> I hate hearing about the screams, and it just rips my heart out to even hear, I can imagine how hard this is on you. I'm so sorry, little Perry!


Thanks. Yesterday was better, a few moves that resulted in a less intense scream/ whimper that he was able to resolve himself, so hopefully moving in the right direction.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

I'm glad he is getting better, slowly but surely. Hate to hear about the screams. I know what they sound like. Willow screams when she gets a bath! I would hate to hear what she would do if she was in Perry's place. I hope Perry will quickly get to a point where it doesn't hurt so much. Poor little guy.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I’m so glad the surgery went well! His pain sounds heartbreaking, I hope he feels better soon! Do you think the meds are managing it well enough? it seems like I remember hearing at some point that there are less options for dogs but I don’t know why. I hope the increased dose helps.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I’m so glad the surgery went well! His pain sounds heartbreaking, I hope he feels better soon! Do you think the meds are managing it well enough? it seems like I remember hearing at some point that there are less options for dogs but I don’t know why. I hope the increased dose helps.


I really can't figure out if the meds are managing it well. He's so stoic (except for the trying to move and screaming bit) most of the day so I really can't tell if he's actually in pain or not. The other sign is often panting - but it's been warm many days (and even warmer in our bedroom) so I can't tell if he's hot or actually in pain. 

He's been on once a day metacam and twice daily gabapentin. I can up the gabapentin if needed (per the vet) which is what I did yesterday. Today I went back to his normal dose and will see how he does. I also have trazadone if he's tooooo active to help chill him out - been using it occasionally but not often. I'm anticipating that will be more needed as he gets more and more comfortable.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Melissa Brill said:


> I really can't tell if he's actually in pain or not. The other sign is often panting - but it's been warm many days (and even warmer in our bedroom) so I can't tell if he's hot or actually in pain.


Melissa, Ricky and I are sending HavaVibes to our amigo Perry. I think his panting is a sign of stress in his case. Is he also drooling? Give him plenty of fresh water. I can personally verify these surgeries are not fun! We are confident Perry will feel better as time passes, but it will take time maybe two months or more from our experience with our daughter's Lab (two times now!)


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

DogFather said:


> Melissa, Ricky and I are sending HavaVibes to our amigo Perry. I think his panting is a sign of stress in his case. Is he also drooling? Give him plenty of fresh water. I can personally verify these surgeries are not fun! We are confident Perry will feel better as time passes, but it will take time maybe two months or more from our experience with our daughter's Lab (two times now!)


Thanks. He's not drooling and he has constant access to water in his crate via his water bottle (Perry does not like open water/ "messes" and if I put a bowl is crate he would use his bed or the blanket to cover it up and soak up all the water) as well as plenty of water in his kibble and HK dinner. 

He seems to be doing much better today - moving it around as he's lying down without whimpers. Right now he's asleep stretched out with his head on my foot and his "cast" (aka the splint with bandages) resting on my calf.

I feel for your daughter - I cannot imagine dealing with leg surgery with a lab-sized dog! It's enough to have to carry 11lb Perry up and down stairs multiple times a day - I can't even imagine it with a dog 2x his size let alone a lab that is probably at least 5x (probably more!)

For his CCL surgery the vet estimated crate rest for 2 months, but we ended up doing 3+ because we weren't in the US to do his follow up at 2 months so she had advised that we play it safe and keep him on crate rest til we could get back for his checkup and all clear. For this surgery, she's said 2-3 months - I'm assuming it will be closer to the 3 months (though maybe we can start PT after the 2 month mark). She had said that they generally don't need PT unless they're a performance dog, but given his love of jumping (even if I try to curb it), I said that I'd prefer to do PT to get it as strong and stable as possible. Plus, the sooner we can get that one strong, we can do the re-do on his back knee so we can be done with these surgeries!!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Melissa Brill said:


> I really can't figure out if the meds are managing it well. He's so stoic (except for the trying to move and screaming bit) most of the day so I really can't tell if he's actually in pain or not. The other sign is often panting - but it's been warm many days (and even warmer in our bedroom) so I can't tell if he's hot or actually in pain.
> 
> He's been on once a day metacam and twice daily gabapentin. I can up the gabapentin if needed (per the vet) which is what I did yesterday. Today I went back to his normal dose and will see how he does. I also have trazadone if he's tooooo active to help chill him out - been using it occasionally but not often. I'm anticipating that will be more needed as he gets more and more comfortable.


Not to compare Perry to DS, lol, but he’s the same way. He will say he’s fine and then start crying about something completely unrelated and it’s clear he’s hurting. I do think it’s similar with a pet or human that can’t communicate well, that it’s hard to tell, and it can come out at unexpected times. Personally I think it’s better to err on the side of the higher dose. It’s easier to go back down vs waiting for the increased dose to kick in. I don’t know about the side effects of those pain meds so not trying to be pushy, it’s more to say if you feel you need reassurance from a random person about going with the higher dose, you have it 

.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Melissa Brill said:


> Thanks. He's not drooling and he has constant access to water in his crate via his water bottle (Perry does not like open water/ "messes" and if I put a bowl is crate he would use his bed or the blanket to cover it up and soak up all the water) as well as plenty of water in his kibble and HK dinner.


This is good news for Perry, for you , and the rest of your HF family. My daughter's Vet said that drooling is often (but not always) a sign of nausea (not necessarily vomiting) and/or acute pain discomfort. My daughter's Lab exhibited excessive drooling when he got pancreatitis a couple of years go.



> I feel for your daughter - I cannot imagine dealing with leg surgery with a lab-sized dog! It's enough to have to carry 11lb Perry up and down stairs multiple times a day - I can't even imagine it with a dog 2x his size let alone a lab that is probably at least 5x (probably more!)


Yes, her Lab is 80 pounds. She had to purchase a canine sling whereby she could manually lift up his hind quarters when he had to go outside to potty/poop, eat, and with a ramp to help into and out of her car for doctor visits. Fortunately she is 6+ feet tall and had to use her kegs to lift, not her back. She is very devoted to her dog. She knows the drill well having gone through it twice now (with no insurance).



> For his CCL surgery the vet estimated crate rest for 2 months, but we ended up doing 3+ because we weren't in the US to do his follow up at 2 months so she had advised that we play it safe and keep him on crate rest til we could get back for his checkup and all clear. For this surgery, she's said 2-3 months - I'm assuming it will be closer to the 3 months (though maybe we can start PT after the 2 month mark). She had said that they generally don't need PT unless they're a performance dog, but given his love of jumping (even if I try to curb it), I said that I'd prefer to do PT to get it as strong and stable as possible. Plus, the sooner we can get that one strong, we can do the re-do on his back knee so we can be done with these surgeries!!


This sounds pretty typical based on my daughters two experiences. Her dog did not need PT. He is a 80 lbs. lap dog. I'm not kidding. Today he has a pronounced limp but he is no longer in pain.

Keep us posted on Perry's progress.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> I really can't figure out if the meds are managing it well. He's so stoic (except for the trying to move and screaming bit) most of the day so I really can't tell if he's actually in pain or not. The other sign is often panting - but it's been warm many days (and even warmer in our bedroom) so I can't tell if he's hot or actually in pain.
> 
> He's been on once a day metacam and twice daily gabapentin. I can up the gabapentin if needed (per the vet) which is what I did yesterday. Today I went back to his normal dose and will see how he does. I also have trazadone if he's tooooo active to help chill him out - been using it occasionally but not often. I'm anticipating that will be more needed as he gets more and more comfortable.


I would talk to the doc or nurse about his pain level. I know that Pixel (who is admittedly a whimp) doesn’t handle pain well AT ALL. Even so, my vet doesn’t want her in a lot of pain, even “for her”. When she was spayed, and again when she had her anal gland abscess, which I’m sure is NOTHING like what Perry is going through, they sent her home on what they THOUGHT was adequate medication. Pretty much what Perry is on. When I called to tell them she was screaming after the first night home, they immediately had me come and pick up a different med in the case of her spay, and to up the dose in the case of her anal glad abscess.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> I would talk to the doc or nurse about his pain level. I know that Pixel (who is admittedly a whimp) doesn’t handle pain well AT ALL. Even so, my vet doesn’t want her in a lot of pain, even “for her”. When she was spayed, and again when she had her anal gland abscess, which I’m sure is NOTHING like what Perry is going through, they sent her home on what they THOUGHT was adequate medication. Pretty much what Perry is on. When I called to tell them she was screaming after the first night home, they immediately had me come and pick up a different med in the case of her spay, and to up the dose in the case of her anal glad abscess.


Yep, discussion on pain meds is on the agenda for today's bandage change visit... especially since his last dose of metacam was yesterday and I'm concerned about not having it this week. 

Yesterday had gone really well - seemed very comfortable and no whimpering/ screams... but then I was putting his boot on to go outside at around 10 and I must have twisted it just the slightest big because I got the scream again (it's so much worse when it's your fault!!) so gave him another pill and will talk to the vet/ nurse today at the visit.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

This week's fashion statement is yellow with green bones 










Bandage change went well, he was fine and they didn't need to administer any anesthesia to change the bandages. They said there was some minor discharge from the sutures (normal) and they did do some laser treatment to help with some inflammation, etc. The vet also agreed with upping his meds - either 1 every 8 hours or 2 every 12 hours whichever I think is managing it better, so we'll see.


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## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

Aww sweet Perry.😇 Hope upping his meds will help with the pain and give him more comfort. It's good to always be ahead of the pain. Sending hugs to your sweet boy from me and Phoenix.


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## Mando's Mommy (Dec 8, 2020)

Mando and I are rooting for a smooth recovery for Perry and sending both of you hugs!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Update:
Yesterday was a much better day. I don't know whether it was upping the meds or just additional time (likely a combo of both) but he was much more his old self. He wanted to run around the yard (had to settle for moving quickly to find a poop spot), finally decided that he _could_ hop out of the crate on his own without me lifting him out, and was moving the leg around and even using it (below - using the cast/ leg to hold his chew).









If this keeps up I'm going to have to add the trazadone back in to chill him out a little because he's totally over being carried and lying quietly on the bed, etc.  After the pain of last week though I'll take the exuberance (but probably with extra drugs)!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> Update:
> Yesterday was a much better day. I don't know whether it was upping the meds or just additional time (likely a combo of both) but he was much more his old self. He wanted to run around the yard (had to settle for moving quickly to find a poop spot), finally decided that he _could_ hop out of the crate on his own without me lifting him out, and was moving the leg around and even using it (below - using the cast/ leg to hold his chew).
> View attachment 174925
> 
> ...


I'd MUCH rather have to tranquilize him than have him in such pain! Great news!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> I'd MUCH rather have to tranquilize him than have him in such pain! Great news!


absolutely agree!


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

So nice to hear Perry is feeling brighter❤


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Great news about Healthy Paws - they just paid (and very quickly too) for the leg surgery... only (minor) issue was that they deducted the deductible again when we already had it deducted earlier this year, but that will get sorted I'm sure - it's just great that they didn't even question whether the leg condition was pre-existing or not, it's been paid. So relieved!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> Great news about Healthy Paws - they just paid (and very quickly too) for the leg surgery... only (minor) issue was that they deducted the deductible again when we already had it deducted earlier this year, but that will get sorted I'm sure - it's just great that they didn't even question whether the leg condition was pre-existing or not, it's been paid. So relieved!!


That is awesome!!!


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

I'm sure glad to hear that Perry is feeling better. I remember it broke my heart to hear Scout whimper when he moved. I did keep him very sedated the first week and carried him outside to potty. I learned my lesson that puppies need to be crate trained. It was a very long eight weeks x 2! 😬 I asked about PT, but the surgeon said he would recover with activity. I think it was six months before it was ok for him to run. Healthy Paws has been great. The hospital required payment at the time of discharge. They emailed the bill to Healthy Paws and I received a check within a week. They also called awhile after his surgery to inquire how he was recovering.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Heather's said:


> I'm sure glad to hear that Perry is feeling better. I remember it broke my heart to hear Scout whimper when he moved. I did keep him very sedated the first week and carried him outside to potty. I learned my lesson that puppies need to be crate trained. It was a very long eight weeks x 2! 😬 I asked about PT, but the surgeon said he would recover with activity. I think it was six months before it was ok for him to run. Healthy Paws has been great. The hospital required payment at the time of discharge. They emailed the bill to Healthy Paws and I received a check within a week. They also called awhile after his surgery to inquire how he was recovering.


Whimpers are hard enough - the pain "scream" was excruciating, so glad that's (hopefully) done!

I do like Healthy Paws - as I posted, they paid the leg surgery bill very quickly (about a week) and the bill for some follow up meds even faster (2 days?) I paid the vet directly and then submitted the claims online and Healthy Paws reimburses me through direct deposit to my bank account (I had the sending a check before but it's faster to do direct deposit.) I also got an email from them a couple of weeks ago asking how Perry was doing after his "growth removal" (aka biopsy) surgery.

Perry was on very strict crate rest for 3 (almost 4) months for his CCL surgery and then was able to move around normally (including some running around the yard). No PT after that one. For this one, we'll see how he is once he's able to move normally, and will discuss possible PT with the Dr at the 2 month mark (I'm anticipating strict crate rest/ no stairs/ no running for a minimum of 3 months and probably longer so he's getting carried everywhere except when he gets put down on the ground to (1)eat and (2)potty - though he's milking the ability to "walk" around to potty by taking MUCH longer than he usually does to find the "right" spot. 

The vet said she wanted him around / not traveling for 3 months, but I imagine we might still have some restrictions after that). Given that i know that I will NOT be able to restrict his jumping forever (even if I personally could, there are too many times when I have to travel and it's unrealistic that hubby or Perry's sitters will be able to restrict it as well) so PT might be the alternative to ensure that his leg is as strong as possible going forward. Will see.


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## LeleRF (Feb 18, 2021)

This is fantastic! The news on his feeling better, getting around more AND Healthy Paws coming through totally made my night! His little bandage design is also VERY fashion forward!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

LeleRF said:


> ... His little bandage design is also VERY fashion forward!


I know right  Can't wait to see what next week's will look like.


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## Mando's Mommy (Dec 8, 2020)

So glad to hear that Perry is feeling better and that Healthy Paws came through without any hassles! We also signed up for Healthy Paws based on recommendations on this Forum and independent research that I did on the pet insurance plans available in our state.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Melissa Brill said:


> Great news about Healthy Paws - they just paid (and very quickly too) for the leg surgery... only (minor) issue was that they deducted the deductible again when we already had it deducted earlier this year, but that will get sorted I'm sure - it's just great that they didn't even question whether the leg condition was pre-existing or not, it's been paid. So relieved!!


update on this - no big deal but I hadn't realized so in case anyone else is in the same position (and it makes sense) - Healthy Paws counts "annual" as starting on your policy anniversary date - so that's why I had to pay the deductible again, because our anniversary date is apparently in May (which means we got Perry's policy when he was just over a year NOT at 9-10 months which is what I thought).


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Melissa Brill said:


> Great news about Healthy Paws - they just paid (and very quickly too) for the leg surgery... only (minor) issue was that they deducted the deductible again when we already had it deducted earlier this year, but that will get sorted I'm sure - it's just great that they didn't even question whether the leg condition was pre-existing or not, it's been paid. So relieved!!


I just recently cancelled Willow's Healthy Paws insurance. The premium doubled for her and it was going to be just under $100 per month. It was just too high. I'm going to set up a savings program and pay it rather than Healthy Paws. I know I'm taking a risk but any insurance is just playing the odds I guess. The only time I used it they kept asking for information that I already sent and their fax never worked (I don't have a scanner). I can always enroll again in the future (probably with another waiting period). Our insurance commissioner changed the way insurance companies assigned premiums and I've also gotten a notice that our home owners insurance will probably increase. I think that's why Healthy Paws insurance increased so much. I'm glad it's working so well for you and Perry!


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

So glad to hear Perry is doing better, and that Healthy Paws paid up! We’ve had them ever since Charlie’s first ER visit, for a foxtail in his paw, at about a year and a half old. It was $800 and we were told ‘oh that’s nothing in terms of emergency bills’ so decided to go for it. We’ve only ‘gotten our money’s worth’ (got back more than we put in) one year I think, but I always appreciate the piece of mind of knowing that whatever happens, and however much it costs, we wouldn’t have to ever think twice. I suppose I’m the type of person insurance is made for! I was annoyed that they raised our premium significantly right after his heart murmur was detected and first yearly echo last year, but with that and now the IVDD… and the fact that any of that would now be a ‘pre-existing condition’ with another carrier, they’ve got us! I always tell friends considering insurance to get it when the dog is young and has NO issues, because if you wait until something is diagnosed it can no longer be covered. But it’s definitely a commitment!

I hope Perry continues to do better every day!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

This week's fashion statement is green paw prints 








Last week's was a repeat of the blue stars so didn't post a picture.

He's doing well, not walking on it yet but I wonder if it's more the "cast" than the leg. He will balance on it but not walk. However, if he wants to play with his hedgehog he wants to pounce on it, so I think that's when he forgets about the bandage so will use it. 

Next week is our one month checkup so will have an xray to see how it's doing. I've asked if I could go inside to meet with the vet in person. they said they are still figuring out how to move in that direction but are still not letting people inside but they would ask so will see.


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

How cute are the little paw prints🐾 

Looks like Perry’s hair is growing back nicely too! X


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> How cute are the little paw prints🐾
> 
> Looks like Perry’s hair is growing back nicely too! X


Yeah his hair grows really fast - if he were in a really short puppy cut right now you'd have a hard time even seeing where the surgery shaved areas were - it's only because I can't/ won't take him to the groomer for a few more weeks/ month(s) that the rest is getting shaggy and you can see such a difference.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

I sent this pic to my sisters... and one of them asked me "why does he always look like a Muppet with a big head when you take his picture".
I told her that my arms are too short to take a picture of him on my lap


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> I sent this pic to my sisters... and one of them asked me "why does he always look like a Muppet with a big head when you take his picture".
> I told her that my arms are too short to take a picture of him on my lap
> View attachment 175074


He's an adorable Muppet!!! 💗


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## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

Glad to read Perry is doing well. Keep us posted after the vet visit next week. Positive vibes to you and Perry from me and Phoenix.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Update (no pic because they used the green paw prints again this week).
Perry's 4 week checkup was yesterday. They took xrays and it's progressing as expected. The pinned bone is showing some healing, but is definitely not healed yet...and the plated one - well, she said that it has a gap and may never fully close which would be fine because it would give it room to be more dynamic (which apparently is a good thing). 

He's still not walking on it though he does put it down to balance but she said (and I suspect it's true) that often with the bandage the way it is dogs don't feel comfortable using it, not because of pain or anything like that. She wants to get him out of the bandage as soon as possible because the "elbow needs to drop into place" or something like that, but wants to keep him in the bandage til the next checkup. She did mention that he may need to be in some sort of support after that as well - but I am hoping it can be something that doesn't require the whole leg to be bandaged, but will see. At least now bandage changes can go to every 2 weeks to save me a few 3 hour round trips to go to the vet so they can change his bandages.

I bring him out of the crate to sit with me on the bed for a few hours a day and he's not very interested in chewing on the leg and if he even starts to lick it a quick 'no' or 'eh' stops him easily.

Last week they left a bit more of his foot (toenails) exposed and he managed to push his cone up and reach the nails. He is a nail chewer in general but he ended up chewing two nails down to expose the quick (a little red filament sort of thing sticking out) so this week they bandaged it higher AND I need to use the plastic cone for a while. I really prefer the soft cone and he has been doing really well with it but the toenails and the exposed hair was too much to resist. So we'll see, might try to switch back to it some time next week.

I'm really over not being allowed in the office to meet with the doctor and trying to have these discussions on the phone/ not seeing the xrays with her as we talk etc. I guess I should cross my fingers and hope by the 8 week check (or 7 or 10 week - given that the vet is on vacation weeks 8 and 9 and I don't know if the next checkup is week 7 or week 10 because of that) I'll be able to go in.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> Update (no pic because they used the green paw prints again this week).
> Perry's 4 week checkup was yesterday. They took xrays and it's progressing as expected. The pinned bone is showing some healing, but is definitely not healed yet...and the plated one - well, she said that it has a gap and may never fully close which would be fine because it would give it room to be more dynamic (which apparently is a good thing).
> 
> He's still not walking on it though he does put it down to balance but she said (and I suspect it's true) that often with the bandage the way it is dogs don't feel comfortable using it, not because of pain or anything like that. She wants to get him out of the bandage as soon as possible because the "elbow needs to drop into place" or something like that, but wants to keep him in the bandage til the next checkup. She did mention that he may need to be in some sort of support after that as well - but I am hoping it can be something that doesn't require the whole leg to be bandaged, but will see. At least now bandage changes can go to every 2 weeks to save me a few 3 hour round trips to go to the vet so they can change his bandages.
> ...


Do you have an Pad? When Panda was pregnant, they were able to send the ultrasounds and X-ray to me by email so that I could be looking at them in my car and talking to the vet on the phone at the same time. Would that help?


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> Do you have an Pad? When Panda was pregnant, they were able to send the ultrasounds and X-ray to me by email so that I could be looking at them in my car and talking to the vet on the phone at the same time. Would that help?


I do have a tablet, but not one that has internet, and it would be hard to see the xrays on my phone (especially since my phone SUCKS - I really need a new one  ). I just wonder why, since these consultations have been going on this long no one is doing zoom appointments at vet offices.

My frustration comes from (in addition to being a visual person and really wanting to be able to see things and point to things during the discussion) the fact that I know there are ways to make it safe(r). For example, it doesn't have to be an "all or nothing" decision. You don't have to suddenly let everyone back in the office to sit in the waiting room, etc. You can do something like making everyone still check in from the parking lot, wait in their cars, and only come in once the initial stuff was done - and then only if the person can show a vaccine card, be masked, and heck even require people to wear gloves. Call them in for the consultation, go straight to the exam room, don't touch anything along the way, and you greatly minimize any risk (which is still there anyway because the nurses are interacting with the owners in the parking lot when they get the pups) and still get a proper consultation.

I feel like it's still in place because it makes their lives easier, they can move through patients faster, etc. I know that's not entirely fair - I know there are risks being in a situation where you have hundreds of people cycling through the office every day - but I wish they would figure it out a little faster and open up at least a little!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> I do have a tablet, but not one that has internet, and it would be hard to see the xrays on my phone (especially since my phone SUCKS - I really need a new one  ). I just wonder why, since these consultations have been going on this long no one is doing zoom appointments at vet offices.
> 
> My frustration comes from (in addition to being a visual person and really wanting to be able to see things and point to things during the discussion) the fact that I know there are ways to make it safe(r). For example, it doesn't have to be an "all or nothing" decision. You don't have to suddenly let everyone back in the office to sit in the waiting room, etc. You can do something like making everyone still check in from the parking lot, wait in their cars, and only come in once the initial stuff was done - and then only if the person can show a vaccine card, be masked, and heck even require people to wear gloves. Call them in for the consultation, go straight to the exam room, don't touch anything along the way, and you greatly minimize any risk (which is still there anyway because the nurses are interacting with the owners in the parking lot when they get the pups) and still get a proper consultation.
> 
> I feel like it's still in place because it makes their lives easier, they can move through patients faster, etc. I know that's not entirely fair - I know there are risks being in a situation where you have hundreds of people cycling through the office every day - but I wish they would figure it out a little faster and open up at least a little!


I agree!


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## Cassandra (Dec 29, 2015)

Our vet hospital is back to normal..check in inside, sit in separated areas while waiting. They started allowing owners inside for tech visits a few weeks ago because they are typically short visits for shots etc but just sent out email that they are fully reopened. Vaccinated clients don’t need to wear masks but unvaccinated are supposed to, per state, local and cdc guidelines. No new clients being served for awhile. They, like many vets were overwhelmed with new pets etc and closed to any new clients for now. We are in Silicon Valley with very high vaccination rates (over 82% by last report). I still wear mask inside anywhere because I don’t trust the unvaccinated to play by rules, but things are getting better. Last year has been stressful for even doing routine vet visit, let alone serious ones.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

We're in the same area as Cassandra. Last weekend we took our two for their yearly well check... last years was missed. I had to wait over a month to get an appointment. I was considering changing hospitals since our hospital is even limiting emergency cases. I called five hospitals and none were accepting new clients. Our hospital will accept a new pet if you are a client. Last week we had to call when arriving and wear a mask. One person was allowed to go into the exam room. This week they have opened up. Masks are only required for the unvaccinated. I'm glad we went last weekend! Our county is 88.8% vaccinated. I just ordered more masks.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Heather's said:


> We're in the same area as Cassandra. Last weekend we took our two for their yearly well check... last years was missed. I had to wait over a month to get an appointment. I was considering changing hospitals since our hospital is even limiting emergency cases. I called five hospitals and none were accepting new clients. Our hospital will accept a new pet if you are a client. Last week we had to call when arriving and wear a mask. One person was allowed to go into the exam room. This week they have opened up. Masks are only required for the unvaccinated. I'm glad we went last weekend! Our county is 88.8% vaccinated. I just ordered more masks.


I JUST got an e-mail from my vet’s office that, starting Monday, one person will be allowed in with the animal. Curbside service still required for food and med pick-ups and tech-only appointments to limit congestion In their limited front office/entry area. I can live with that!


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## eenieminnie (Jul 9, 2021)

poor guy hoping he recover soon. good thing that you use a soft cone or you can use this Lick Sleeve this is what my dog used when he undergoes tplo surgery


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

eenieminnie said:


> poor guy hoping he recover soon. good thing that you use a soft cone or you can use this Lick Sleeve this is what my dog used when he undergoes tplo surgery



The smallest size is for 30-50 lbs! Doesn't sound suitable for a Havanese! What kind of dog do you have?


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

eenieminnie said:


> poor guy hoping he recover soon. good thing that you use a soft cone or you can use this Lick Sleeve this is what my dog used when he undergoes tplo surgery


I do have a boot for him when we go out which helps keep moisture out - the problem with anything that keeps moisture out is that it also keeps it in - and with the boot, at least, it can build up condensation inside so he can't wear it all the time.

My sister had a body suit for her dog after surgery and she was still able to cause damage to the surgical site through it.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

We're blue and white today. Week 8 should be checkup but his ortho vet is on vacation so bandage change instead and check up at week 10.

Leg looks fine except for being all sticky from the bandages so major grooming will be needed once they're off for good. No ruba or sores which are they major concern of extended bandage wearing so that's good 

Also had car trouble so had the car towed from 1 1/2 hours away from home. Luckily Finleys mom was in the same city for the day for work so getting a ride back with her. These things never can happen near home can they.


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

Love the pic and and the fact that it hasn’t rubbed Perry’s skin at all🙂. 

You are right it is definitely illegal for a car to break down just up the road from where you live😤😆


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Love the pic and and the fact that it hasn’t rubbed Perry’s skin at all🙂.
> 
> You are right it is definitely illegal for a car to break down just up the road from where you live😤😆


It's even worse here than it would be where you are because we, in the US, are fundamentally opposed to good public transport systems  so if we weren't lucky and Finley's Mom was actually in this city (if it had been last week she wouldn't have been) we would have had to sit there for at least 2 hours waiting for someone to come get us - IF my nephew was free immediately (because everyone else was working)... so instead we had to sit around for an hour and a bit until they finished their field trip so we could get a ride back with them.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

I talked to the nurse about being able to meet with the vet in person for the checkup - she said that the Dr. was being very cautious because she has little kids at home, but that she'd talk to her about coming out to the parking lot with her laptop to meet with me (I assured her that I had my vaccine card and would stay masked - and would wear gloves or do anything else she wanted because I really wanted to meet with her in person for this check up). 

It also made me think about all the discussions we've had about the overload at vets offices since COVID - because she said there was no way that they would be opening up inside appointments for a long time - not only because of the risk but because they've had a 75% increase in patients since COVID and the exam / consultation rooms are all currently full with offices and animal crates for patients so they don't even currently have any space for meeting inside.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

@Melissa Brill I sure hope you get to meet up in person. My vet has actually opened up and the dogs go in soon so hopefully they continue this policy until I get them in. We are supposed to wear a mask but that is it.


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

Im so glad he’s healing well and no irritation! I hope that you’re able to go talk to the vet in person… our vet is now allowing one person (masked) with the dog, and it was so much better to be able to talk face to face!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Lisa Walker said:


> Im so glad he’s healing well and no irritation! I hope that you’re able to go talk to the vet in person… our vet is now allowing one person (masked) with the dog, and it was so much better to be able to talk face to face!


At the hospital where he goes, many of the other doctors are consulting in person (I've seen them out in the parking lot with tablets and white boards to illustrate things  and when Duncan was there a couple of months ago for his yearly ultrasound (gallbladder issues) his vet came out without being asked to discuss his results with me. The nurse said that his ortho vet is being especially cautious because she has small kids at home, but hopefully she'd be willing to come out to meet with us.


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

Melissa Brill said:


> At the hospital where he goes, many of the other doctors are consulting in person (I've seen them out in the parking lot with tablets and white boards to illustrate things  and when Duncan was there a couple of months ago for his yearly ultrasound (gallbladder issues) his vet came out without being asked to discuss his results with me. The nurse said that his ortho vet is being especially cautious because she has small kids at home, but hopefully she'd be willing to come out to meet with us.


Oh, I hope so! I totally get people with small kids being extra cautious… but fingers crossed that the ortho vet is ok with a masked parking lot meet up! It’s wild how creative people have had to get this year… I’m sure vets never in a million years thought they’d be drawing on white boards in parking lots!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> I talked to the nurse about being able to meet with the vet in person for the checkup - she said that the Dr. was being very cautious because she has little kids at home, but that she'd talk to her about coming out to the parking lot with her laptop to meet with me (I assured her that I had my vaccine card and would stay masked - and would wear gloves or do anything else she wanted because I really wanted to meet with her in person for this check up).
> 
> It also made me think about all the discussions we've had about the overload at vets offices since COVID - because she said there was no way that they would be opening up inside appointments for a long time - not only because of the risk but because they've had a 75% increase in patients since COVID and the exam / consultation rooms are all currently full with offices and animal crates for patients so they don't even currently have any space for meeting inside.


Also, as soon as we thought we were getting a breather, Delta has made things so much worse! And I just read a peer reviewed paper that said that eben with the vaccine, 20% of the people who GET a break-through case are getting long Covid symptoms. That’s not that much better than unvaccinated, which is 25% of cases. So even though you probably won’t end up in the hospital or die (if, unlike me, you have a normal immune system) you could STILL end up with problems from it for the rest of your life. Even from a mild case. And even kids. No thanks.

Really the ONLY thing that makes me somewhat hopeful is that the Spanish Flu pandemic did, eventually, burn itself out and disappear, completely on its own, with no human intervention, because humans had no way of dealing with it. I really think that is the ONLY way we are going to completely see out of this. 😢


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

So since we can't run around, this is what play looks like for Perry.









20210807_171531.mp4


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com













20210807_172000.mp4


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

And this is how we sit a lot on the bed.
















Yes, that is me holding the leash with my toes so that I can use both hands on my computer. The leash is where I can grab it but the "toe hold" allows me to stop him from jumping suddenly.


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## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

Perry looks great.  It is a real delight to see Perry having fun playing, within his restrictions. What a little trooper he is!  Hope soon he will be doing zoomies around the dining room table??


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Ditto's Mom said:


> Perry looks great.  It is a real delight to see Perry having fun playing, within his restrictions. What a little trooper he is!  Hope soon he will be doing zoomies around the dining room table??


Thanks. I hope so too. I suspect that zoomies are at least a month away if not longer since his zoomies generally involve ricocheting off the seats of the two couches as part of the process. Hopefully though we can at least go outside on the long leash and chase a ball within a month.


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## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

Phoenix and I are pulling for him and for you Melissa. You're an awesome Mom.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

That is SO cute! He is SUCH a good boy!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> That is SO cute! He is SUCH a good boy!


He is. I am completely aware that I have been extremely lucky about how patient he has been. 

I do feel like his separation anxiety (when we go somewhere) has gotten worse - whether that's COVID / me being home all the time related or because he's in the crate so much longer OR a combination of both. It's gotten to the point that even if I leave the room (he's still ok if we're in the room) for more than 10-15 minutes which wasn't an issue before AND when we do get back it's obvious that he's been drooling and very worked up. So, at some point we'll have to figure out how to deal with that.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> He is. I am completely aware that I have been extremely lucky about how patient he has been.
> 
> I do feel like his separation anxiety (when we go somewhere) has gotten worse - whether that's COVID / me being home all the time related or because he's in the crate so much longer OR a combination of both. It's gotten to the point that even if I leave the room (he's still ok if we're in the room) for more than 10-15 minutes which wasn't an issue before AND when we do get back it's obvious that he's been drooling and very worked up. So, at some point we'll have to figure out how to deal with that.


Poor boy! You can hardly blame him! With being so COMPLETELY confined and entirely dependent on you, it is no wonder he worries when you aren’t right there. He’s a dog who has a real REASON to worry!

But Covid has been so hard on all of them. I’m having a hard time getting Panda back into work. She is worrying in training in a way she never used to pre-Covid/puppies/C-section/having a puppy with her when she’s training… but SOOOO much has changed in her little life.

She has her “annul” physical tomorrow, which was delayed because she was pregnant when it SHOULD have been done. Because of Kodi’s TBD episode, and knowing that TBD’s can also cause personality changes, I am going to have the vet check that, and also pull a thyroid panel on her, jut to rule out all PHYSICAL possibilities. But I THINK it is just pain a combination of 18 months of isolation, not trialing, being away from training around other (bigger) dogs, plus mild, “background worry” about her puppy while she is trying to concentrate on doing HER work. I think I’ve just got to take it really slow and easy, keep it fun for her and let her come back at her own pace. She’s fine around the house, though. It’s just that she doesn’t want to engage in training when we go for our lessons. 

But she ALSO hasn’t just gone through the huge surgery Perry has, right on top of changing homes And moving in with a bunch of dogs he may have known, but wasn’t used to living with all the time!


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## LeleRF (Feb 18, 2021)

I SO loved watching Perry play! He’s such a little trooper, and yes, whomever posted this earlier, you are just an exceptional ‘mom’. I always look forward to check in on this thread to see how Perry is doing. I can’t wait for the day when he‘s romping around.


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

It’s _so _lovely to see how full of beans and happy Perry is😍😍. You must be thrill he is coping so well. It would never have occurred to me to play with Flo if she ever faces bed rest, but such a a great idea🙂🙂


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> It’s _so _lovely to see how full of beans and happy Perry is😍😍. You must be thrill he is coping so well. It would never have occurred to me to play with Flo if she ever faces bed rest, but such a a great idea🙂🙂


All I will say is that if I didn't play with him somehow at least a little every night he would drive me out of my bloomin' mind! Luckily, he's happy to play with his (much mended) hedgehog like this. One day I was going to try something similar on the floor with a ball, but he got so excited when I took it out and was hopping around (you know when they take both front feet off the ground and then bang them down) that i was afraid he was going to slam the bad leg down and mess it up, so we can't do this with his ball.

He only needs 5-10 minutes of this - either on the floor or on the bed and then he's happy to gnaw on it or on his antler or himalayan chew for a while then he's good to just chill on the bed with us while we watch TV.

He is coping amazingly well. The harder part is coming I know - when the "cast" comes off but he's not allowed to jump/ do stairs - I'm curious what sort of "support" the vet might want to keep on the leg (she said she might - will depend on the next xray) - hoping it is one that won't require him to keep the cone on... I'm already looking at ways to barricade part of the bedroom so he can run around a little bit but not have access to the bed to jump. I'm hoping I can put an xpen to give him some space... I may have to rearrange part of the bedroom to do it though.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Perry update.
Today we graduated from the fiberglass splint with bandages to a popsicle stick splint with bandage (and we're back to yellow with green bones  ).









I was able to meet with the vet and see the x-rays. The pin in the ulna (or was it radius?) is HUGE - basically the whole length of the bone. She said that eventually she'll probably want to pull it out (once the leg was fully healed) because pins can migrate, but that it would be fine for quite a while. The plate and 4 pins in the radius (or was it ulna - I may be switching the two) looks big on the x-ray, but then again anything would look big on those tiny legs! The change in the leg though looking at the x-ray is really significant - I'm going to ask her to send me them and I'll post them - you'll be amazed at how twisted it really was and how much straighter it is now.

As far as healing... basically she'd like to see a little more bone growth than there is so far, but it is filling in on both bones. She said though that with a lot of dogs it tends to grow faster/ better when they start using their leg and he's still not using it much. Even without the whole area regrown, the pin and the plate should keep it stabilized.

However, today with new style split I've seen him using it a little more than he did with the fiberglass splint, so hopefully he'll use it more over the next two weeks. 

We have to wait until the bandages are off before he can start PT. Today she did seem to think that might be a good idea especially since Perry still isn't enthusiastic about using the leg (she said that some dogs are just happier using 3 rather than starting to use the other leg).

We discussed the back leg surgery. She said that since it's only slipping sometimes - as a "perfectionist" she said she would want to go in and fix it for good but that it wasn't urgent - that we should wait for the front leg to be completely healed and could wait 6 months - year to do the back knee. She also thought that PT could help strengthen his back leg as well and maybe avoid surgery on that knee. But at least I know at this point that it's not a rush to do that one... we can wait a while, let everything heal up (and have some time without him in a cone/ being carried). 

We have another check up in 2 weeks - will see if the bandage/ splint can come off then so we can start PT (though I am really nervous about how he pounces around if he doesn't have a splint on it). 

We talked about the CAT scan result showing something about his eye ("ciliary body changes") and so have a consultation with the ophthalmologist scheduled for Sept 1 - same day we have his next ortho check up (the ophthalmologist didn't have any appointments free but they squeezed us in so we didn't have to drive down twice which I thought was really great of them). Hopefully he'll say it's nothing, but figured since we had the CAT scan results, we'd do a consult to find out if it was anything to worry about. 

She told me that they had gotten so many new patients during the pandemic - great because people have gotten pets and are taking care of them, but they - like I've heard from other people - have sometimes had to shut their ER (as an emergency vet hospital!) because they have run out of capacity to take new cases! It's scary when even the emergency hospitals can't be counted on during an emergency!


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

Great update Melissa😀😀. 

Doesn’t Perry look pleased with his new style of splint too☺

Your vet sounds like a very level headed person who knows exactly what she’s doing, and is just the sort of person I would like to be treating Flo if we were in a similar situation. It must be reassuring to hear she has Perry’s long term plan figured out. In some ways I think they have to look after us as much as the animals😘


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Great update Melissa😀😀.
> 
> Doesn’t Perry look pleased with his new style of splint too☺
> 
> Your vet sounds like a very level headed person who knows exactly what she’s doing, and is just the sort of person I would like to be treating Flo if we were in a similar situation. It must be reassuring to hear she has Perry’s long term plan figured out. In some ways I think they have to look after us as much as the animals😘


I do like Perry's ortho vet very much and is totally worth the 3 hours round trip to see her (now every 2 weeks, but once a week for the first month). She also understands that we are really anxious to get out of here - so works around our travel and figuring out the best schedules/ plans for us. When Perry had his CCL surgery we worked it out so that we were here in the US for 2 weeks right after the surgery (for the first checkup/ removing the staples), then she had no problem with us moving back to Kampala, keeping him on crate rest/ tethered for 3 months (It's usually 2 and then check up but we weren't going to be back til Christmas) and then brought him back for a checkup. This time she did want him around for the first couple of months, but she knows we're getting antsy sitting around, so that factors in to her thinking as well. 

Perry does seem to prefer this splint - even though the stick does come all the way down and hits the floor, it seems like he's more comfortable using it than the fiberglass splint that was molded to his leg and came around under his foot (so lifted it off the floor a few centimeters).


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

X-rays...
So it's easy to see which is the before and after  With this much metal in his leg I should start calling him bionic boy or something .

You can see the first picture how really twisted the leg was. In the second, she put a pin in one bone (after cutting it and removing a piece) and a plate in the other. She said the bone is starting to grow back between the two though even if it didn't it would be fine - she said that sometimes when there's a tumor they cut the piece out and pin it and the ligaments hold it in place with no problem. The pin will likely come out at some point.
















It amazes me how big the plate is - 6 screws, how in the world do you even fit 6 screws on that tiny little leg???
















It's amazing how much straighter it is though. You can see here the wedge she cut on the one bone (with the plate) to straighten it out.


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

Melissa Brill said:


> X-rays...
> So it's easy to see which is the before and after  With this much metal in his leg I should start calling him bionic boy or something .
> 
> You can see the first picture how really twisted the leg was. In the second, she put a pin in one bone (after cutting it and removing a piece) and a plate in the other. She said the bone is starting to grow back between the two though even if it didn't it would be fine - she said that sometimes when there's a tumor they cut the piece out and pin it and the ligaments hold it in place with no problem. The pin will likely come out at some point.
> ...


Wow what a MASSIVE difference!!! Perry will feel so much more comfortable once he is completely healed🙂


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Wow! It is so amazing what they can do these days! What a huge improvement!!!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> Wow! It is so amazing what they can do these days! What a huge improvement!!!


It is kind of crazy to see for sure!


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## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

OMG! What an phenomenal job she did inserting the plate and the screws in his tiny leg. I am so happy everything is moving in a positive direction for Perry. It's been a long road for you both. He's a special little guy who found an amazing family to give him the love and care he deserves. 💓


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

My goodness! That is amazing!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Last week I was helping my sister close down one of their daycare locations so spent the week (and very long days) at work with her. So, Perry went to "work" with me all week. 

He was, as always, super patient in his crate. But he got to spend more time out of it - in my lap during the day and exploring at night. Since it's all one floor and there really wasn't anything to jump on I could let him drag his leash and wander around, playing with cousin Zadie's toys which he had a blast doing AND was completely exhausted (12 weeks plus the 2 weeks from the spine biopsy all of crate rest/ low activity has meant that he's really out of shape  ). 

During the day was funny though. I've always said he wouldn't be able to go to daycare like Zadie and Finley do because he's so afraid of people - but apparently that does not apply to little people (or doesn't now that he's more confident). The first time i put him down when the kids were in the room (after they'd been instructed that he was on the floor and had to stay calm and be careful of where they walked - they're used to 2 dogs being around because Zadie and Angus both are there almost every day, though they're both much bigger than Perry) he was trotting around exploring, totally unfazed by there being 2 other adults and 10-12 kids there, put his legs up on one kid, and then JUMPED on the lap of another kid (where he then promptly fell down between his legs because said kid was NOT expecting it!) Luckily little kid chairs are very short so no damage from the jump or the fall, but I totally was not expecting him to like it.

The rest of the time I couldn't supervise him on the ground (because I was doing things) so he stayed in my lap - and pretty much every kid came over at various times throughout the day to pet him - sometimes for longer periods and sometimes just a quick pet down his back as they walked by. I did let 2 of the girls sit on the ground and hold him in their lap and while it may not have been his absolute favorite thing (honestly right now I think he only tolerates sitting in my lap because he knows the alternative is the crate  ) - he wasn't scared or very concerned, just looked at me occasionally to make sure it was all ok . 

All in all I was pleasantly surprised by his lack of fear or at least tolerance for the little people. 

Tomorrow we have our week 12 vet appointment (which will be a joy given that the day is at 100% chance of rain - and the general area is meant to get anywhere from 2-6 inches of rain for the day!) so we will see if we're still in a bandage when we head home  or if we will be starting physical therapy next week.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

We will have all fingers paws and toes crossed for you!!!


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## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

Sounds like Perry had a somewhat pleasant time with the kidlets at the daycare center. I'm sure it was nice for him to have a change of scenery too.  Good luck tomorrow, hope the bandage comes off. We'll be waiting to hear the good news!


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## LeleRF (Feb 18, 2021)

So happy to read all the progress! Those X-rays and results of the surgeries were amazing! Looking forward to hear how PT goes. Crossing fingers!


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## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

Checking in to see how Perry's Vet appointment went. Hope all good news?🤞


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Sorry for the delay in the update - we decided to go to DC for a few days following his appointment last Wednesday.

Wednesday was a bad weather day here in PA (and between here and DC) though it wasn't raining too badly when we were at the vet - so the consultation with the vet was with her standing outside the car under an umbrella showing me the new xrays on a tablet . 

Good news - the cast/ splint is off. Bad news, the bones haven't regrown much more and definitely not as much as she would have liked to see. So we've made the next check in a month, hopefully with using it it will stimulate bone growth. In the meantime, he's still on jumping/ stairs restriction which means still a lot of crate rest (which he is currently protesting by sitting in his crate and not eating his breakfast). 

His leg is, as expected, a bit withered as you can see in the picture. He's still not really using it much - he prefers to hop around on 3 legs though he does think he can manage on two - he insisted on balancing (or trying to) on one front and one back leg in order to lift his other back leg to mark when we were in DC!









We've got a PT appointment scheduled for Sunday - will see how that goes because he should be using the leg more right now. He is using it somewhat but not like he should.

I'm also going to have to deal with re-acclimatizing him to grooming of the foot. I don't know if it's sensitivity from being in the cast or if the nurses were a little rough with combing him out when they changed the bandages - in addition to him always having some issues with touching his front feet - but just trying to touch his foot (not the leg, but the foot which was not part of the surgery) with a comb has led to biting the comb (never ever done that before) and the high pitched "you're killing me" whines! Just touching it with the teeth of the comb, not even moving the comb! It's a little bit of a struggle because I can't just hold his leg still like I would have before given that the plate and pin are in it... so we're back to doing it slowly and hoping I can run a comb through it before/ by the time it starts getting a little tangled (not even going to wonder how cutting the hair between his pads will go!)

After his appointment we drove to DC (through horrendous weather and having to figure out routes around flooded/ closed roads) and had a nice few days there. Still trying to figure out the right formula to prevent barking in hotel rooms given that his separation issues have escalated in the last year. We were successful one day with a full dose of trazadone and the TV on, but would love NOT to have to do that, so will keep working on ideas to figure it out. 

He was allowed to walk for a few minutes at a time, so he did do some walking around DC, but mostly was in his sling (and man 11 pounds is heavy!!)

We also visited my sister in law and family where my niece (who previously had decided Perry should be called Chuck) this trip decided that his name should be Oreo and called him that all day. Perry was also a real trooper in sitting on her lap even though we know he's not a real lap dog . 

So, overall a mixed bag - glad the cast is off but would be happier if the bone had regrown better AND if he could be off overall restrictions soon.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

When I worked on the horse farm, we had a Border Collie who broke her leg, and after she got out of her cast, refused to walk on that leg. We ended up having to bandage the good leg part of the time (just wrapped it up in vet wrap) just to make it uncomfortable enough to put the "bad" leg down on the ground and discovered that she COULD walk on that one. Maybe ask the vet about trying something like that?


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> When I worked on the horse farm, we had a Border Collie who broke her leg, and after she got out of her cast, refused to walk on that leg. We ended up having to bandage the good leg part of the time (just wrapped it up in vet wrap) just to make it uncomfortable enough to put the "bad" leg down on the ground and discovered that she COULD walk on that one. Maybe ask the vet about trying something like that?


Will definitely discuss something like that with the PT doctor - I want to see how PT goes. I think it's just being uncomfortable with the idea - when he's thinking about something else (like wanting to run across the yard) he puts it down. I'm hoping that a few weeks of PT will not only help strengthen it but also will help him "forget" that he doesn't want to use it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> Will definitely discuss something like that with the PT doctor - I want to see how PT goes. I think it's just being uncomfortable with the idea - when he's thinking about something else (like wanting to run across the yard) he puts it down. I'm hoping that a few weeks of PT will not only help strengthen it but also will help him "forget" that he doesn't want to use it.


Yes, with Megan, she had simply gotten used to getting around quite efficiently on 3 legs by then, and just needed a reminder that the 4th one was a useful appendage too! LOL! (She had a plate and screws too, though, of course nothing nearly as extensive as Perry's... hers was "merely" patching things back together again!  )


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> Yes, with Megan, she had simply gotten used to getting around quite efficiently on 3 legs by then, and just needed a reminder that the 4th one was a useful appendage too! LOL! (She had a plate and screws too, though, of course nothing nearly as extensive as Perry's... hers was "merely" patching things back together again!  )


the vet did say that PT might be useful because some dogs just get used to using 3 and are perfectly happy continuing that way  She laughed and said "almost all of them start using the leg again immediately so it's not usual for them to continue on 3, but we know Perry is not usual"


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

I realized I hadn't posted an update - then thought "I'll take some pics at PT this week" and post them - only to completely forget to take my phone into the session and take pictures! So, you'll all have to wait until I hopefully! remember to take pictures in 2 weeks (his PT vet is at a conference next week) to see how cute he looks in a life jacket in the water tank 

As I mentioned on another post, Perry is being very stubborn about using his front leg post-surgery. We've had 3 PT sessions (2 weeks - 1st week we did 2 sessions) and the PT vet says that there is no reason for him not to use it, and he will use it when he's not paying attention (like when he's playing) but 2 1/2 weeks post cast-removal and he's still completely happy to run around on 3 legs rather than use the 4th consistently. 

I can get him to use it when he's moving at a fast pace on a walk and when he's not thinking about it. After two weeks I've taught him a "foot" command (to put his foot down) that he understands when there is potentially a treat involved  He'll consistently put it down when he's sitting so now we're working on using it when he's at a slow walk (not that it's easy to put him into a slow walk at any time). 

The fun parts have been trying to figure out exercises that force him to use it. The first was where he was supposed to balance on a fit disc forcing him to use it by picking up his other front leg. He decided that he could just lean on me and be fine. So then we were supposed to "wheel barrow" him so his back legs were up and he had to use the front - at first he decided he was fine balancing on one leg that way but eventually decided he could use both . So that's one of his daily exercises. 

The second exercise was a cavaletti or (in our case) a ladder that he was supposed to walk through forcing him to use all 4 legs. First was working on not being afraid of the ladder. After that we could try the exercise ,but no matter how fast or slow we went through he was able to do it with 3 legs (since we all know Havs prefer to hop than walk anyway). So, that one is off the rotation. 

We, of course, have to do range of motion exercises as well as 15 minute walks a few times a day, trying to do as many inclines as possible. The PT vet has also suggested walking him through tall grass because that "usually" forces them to use all 4 legs as well. We've also added in chasing his ball since that's one thing that he will completely forget to pay attention and will use the leg (all vet approved  ). 

PT sessions are focused on the water treadmill. She's been making him walk fairly quickly to make him use the leg. Yesterday we did part of it slowed down to see if he would still use the leg and he did for the most part - though he was very happy to just walk forward and then float back to the end of the tether and then walk forward again over and over . He actually was much better in the water/ with the treadmill than I expected. In fact, the "scariest" part about it was the PT Dr. standing behind him - so for the subsequent sessions she's stayed out of the water (she is not his favorite person  ). Other than that he's been handling it really well. first day he tried to jump and splashed himself which scared him, but otherwise he just gets in there and walks. 

His 4 week checkup at his ortho is next week, fingers crossed that there will be more bone growth!!


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

Great to hear Perry’s recovery is moving forward Melissa☺ Even if he is being really cheeky about it and doing it his own way! At least he hasn’t lost his character😆😘


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## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

Glad Perry is doing better.  Fingers crossed for more bone growth at his next vet visit.🤞🤞


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Ditto's Mom said:


> Glad Perry is doing better.  Fingers crossed for more bone growth at his next vet visit.🤞🤞


Next visit is tomorrow so we will see how it goes! He's still not using the leg properly, but does use it when he's not paying attention and at random other times - so fingers crossed!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> Next visit is tomorrow so we will see how it goes! He's still not using the leg properly, but does use it when he's not paying attention and at random other times - so fingers crossed!


All fingers, toes and paws crossed here!!! 💕


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

Good luck! Hope it goes well!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

So..... drum roll..... Perry is OFF restriction!

Happily, over the last 4 weeks the bone has regrown and is now completely solid under the plate so the vet lifted all restrictions so he can run and jump and do stairs and everything. We'll continue PT to help strengthen the leg.

She also thinks that maybe some of his issues with using the leg consistenly might have to do with the pin - it's pretty close to the tendon and she thinks it might rub against the tendon when he bends his leg (you can feel the pin when she palpated the leg) - not something that would hurt but might feel weird to him. She had said previously that she'd probably want to take the pin out at some point once the bone was healed, so with the possible irritation as well, we've got an appointment for next Tuesday to take out the pin. It will mean he has to skip PT (no swimming) until the incision is healed - but it sounds like a very quick/ simple procedure to remove it - small incision, pull it out, a couple of stitches. We'll do it Tuesday, so he'll miss 1 PT appointment, they'll take out the stitches the following Friday and then he can go to PT - so we'll only miss 1 appointment.


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

Hooray!!!!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Other interesting tidbits from talking to the vet... Perry apparently has some "favorite" techs/ nurses in the office (mister suspicious of everyone) - we were talking about how he will use the leg when he's not thinking about it and she agreed - said that when he would see one of his "favorite techs" he'd go running over to see them using the leg with no problem. And when he would be walking around he'd use it as he was exploring and "interested in everything". 

She also said "when I am sitting reviewing his records and he puts his front legs up on me, he's got equal pressure on both legs" - which is great for his leg strength, but also tells me that he really likes her - since he does NOT do that to everyone and can take weeks/ months to feel comfortable enough to do that with people, let alone with someone who most likely has done things to him that hurt during exams, etc. 

He also has done really well with all the xrays - doing the leg xrays without anesthesia.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Molly120213 said:


> Hooray!!!!


yep and when we got home he immediately ran up the stairs as if it hadn't been about 4 months since he'd been allowed to do that.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> yep and when we got home he immediately ran up the stairs as if it hadn't been about 4 months since he'd been allowed to do that.


Awww! That makes my heart happy!!! 💕


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

Melissa Brill said:


> yep and when we got home he immediately ran up the stairs as if it hadn't been about 4 months since he'd been allowed to do that.


What wonderful news! And so nice that he has made friends at the office despite the unpleasantness! Sounds like you have a wonderful team


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

Wow such happy news about Perry! It feels like such a long process and then all of a sudden -no pun intended- he has come on leaps and bounds😊


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Yay!!! It's great to hear Perry is doing well and his leg has healed! 🥰 That was a lot to go through! The pin will be easy. I had one in my wrist and didn't feel anything when it was removed. 😊


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## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

Fantastic News!! It's been a long road, sooooo happy for you both!!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

LWalks said:


> What wonderful news! And so nice that he has made friends at the office despite the unpleasantness! Sounds like you have a wonderful team


I do love the team and especially his ortho vet at Valley Central (in Whitehall PA) -- worth the 1 hour and a half drive (each way). They're also great about taking our drive into account - previously squeezing Perry in for an eye check on the same day as his ortho appointment, despite the fact that they eye doctor was completely booked up that day, and trying to get him done early on surgery days (like the pin removal next week) so that we don't have to sit around all day waiting for him to get done.


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## LeleRF (Feb 18, 2021)

Oh my gosh! What great news! Happy dance 💃🏼 for Perry!


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## Mando's Mommy (Dec 8, 2020)

Go Perry! So glad to hear about all the great progress!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Before and after....

So I thought I'd post pictures (not great ones but they work) of before and after on his leg....

Before After


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## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

Wow! What a difference. Perry must be one happy little guy. It's been a long journey but you both made it to positive results. You're an awesome Mom Melissa.👏👏


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

Melissa Brill said:


> Before and after....
> 
> So I thought I'd post pictures (not great ones but they work) of before and after on his leg....
> 
> ...


He’s looking great! So happy he’s getting back to full movement!!


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

I've been keeping track of Perry's progress and am so glad to see such a positive improvement! Great, wonderful news.


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

Perry is looking great😊 

It must be so much more comfortable for him in the long run.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Perry is looking great😊
> 
> It must be so much more comfortable for him in the long run.


I hope it will - at this point we're just waiting/ hoping that he'll finally use the leg ALL the time (still isn't - but more often than before) and then we can get really serious about concentrating on strengthening it. We've got weekly physio sessions - next one is tomorrow so hopefully i will remember to take a picture of him in the tank with his life jacket on!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> I hope it will - at this point we're just waiting/ hoping that he'll finally use the leg ALL the time (still isn't - but more often than before) and then we can get really serious about concentrating on strengthening it. We've got weekly physio sessions - next one is tomorrow so hopefully i will remember to take a picture of him in the tank with his life jacket on!!


I wanted so much to get photos of Kodi in the water treadmill, but ALL of that was during the height of Covid and I never got to be in there with him.


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## Janet (Feb 19, 2007)

Happy news! Perry is a little trooper!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> I wanted so much to get photos of Kodi in the water treadmill, but ALL of that was during the height of Covid and I never got to be in there with him.


His PT vet said that they (PT) never really went to drop-off only because they needed to see the owners with the dogs together to give the owners "homework" for PT.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> His PT vet said that they (PT) never really went to drop-off only because they needed to see the owners with the dogs together to give the owners "homework" for PT.


My vet (who is a sports medicine vet) did do remote, but she was great about doing videos of what she wanted me to do with Kodi, or coming out to the driveway to show me, and having me send HER videos of my "homework". So they made it work, even in full lock down mode. (and Kodi's injury was at the HEIGHT of lock-down)


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

As promised - some pics of Perry in his life jacket (the one he uses at therapy - I may get him a similar one if we're going to be near water)


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

I know I have black dog bias but Perry is such a beautiful boy, it’s like you can see right into his soul😍. And he looks even sweeter lifting his little paw up like that…even though I know he is being naughty and is not supposed to be!😘


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> I know I have black dog bias but Perry is such a beautiful boy, it’s like you can see right into his soul😍. And he looks even sweeter lifting his little paw up like that…even though I know he is being naughty and is not supposed to be!😘


The lighting IS perfect in these photos (maybe because it’s reflecting from the water?) and you can really appreciate his adorable face!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> The lighting IS perfect in these photos (maybe because it’s reflecting from the water?) and you can really appreciate his adorable face!


The lighting was pretty great  Makes me wish I had done a little more work trimming his face when I gave him a haircut this past weekend. Luckily you can't really see the back of his head and the mess i made with his bangs/ eyebrows isn't too noticeable


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

And... we're back on restriction. The pin removal went OK, she only got part of the pin out (waiting to talk to the vet herself to see why but I'm assuming the pin broke which she had said in the past sometimes happens). The restriction is because the bone has to fill back in which can take a few weeks and in the meantime it is vulnerable to cracking from jumping, etc. So 4 weeks till his checkup.

And in the continuing saga of what else can be wrong with him, his liver enzymes are high (they run them before any anesthesia) - they were around 185 when normal is around 125 or so, not at dangerous levels which are considered over 200 but they did an ultrasound which showed some inflammation. So he has to be on denamarin for a month and then get his liver panel again to see. The ultrasound also showed a tiny lesion on his blade so they want another ultrasound is 1-3 months to check growth.

Uncle Duncan is on denamarin but supplies have been running low everywhere for months. Amazon and chewy finally got it back in last week... but when I went to order it for Perry this week they were out of stock again. You can get it directly from the vet but it's almost twice the price. I did find some but it won't be in till next week so now debating it he can take Duncan's to then since Duncan takes the 13-34lb dose and Perry should have the <12lb dose.

Perry is currently still a little zoned out from the meds, so is lounging on my lap









He is currently hiding his shaved leg and incision under his body so no pics of that, but it's a pretty small incision and just a few stitches


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> I know I have black dog bias but Perry is such a beautiful boy, it’s like you can see right into his soul😍. And he looks even sweeter lifting his little paw up like that…even though I know he is being naughty and is not supposed to be!😘


His PT vet says that sometimes they continue to lift it because they think they're being cute (I'd assume more because they get attention for being so cute) but I definitely do NOT give any positive attention when he's doing it so as not to encourage it


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Poor little guy, and poor you--more restriction time.  I hope the partial pin removal isn't because of a problem of some sort that extends the healing time even longer. You are such a good FurMom.


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## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

Oh gosh another hurdle for you and sweet Perry. Love the picture in his lifejacket at PT, adorable.  Sending positive vibes and lots of hugs from me and Phoenix.


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

Im so sorry to hear that he’s had even more challenges! Hope he feels better soon!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

I am still catching up on posts after the move. So happy Perry is doing great.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Pictures from the dog walker - i swear in the first one he's sneering at her and in the second he's clearly thinking "what the hell are you doing lady"


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Perry update:

It's been a while since I have given an update. He had his "last" checkup two weeks ago and is off restriction. However, he's still not fully using the leg so the vet and I discussed and she's put him back on gabapentin - but the "full" dose for his size. It does seem like it's worked because he is using it more often when on it (the PT vet and his ortho vet are both wondering if there is some nerve pain/ tingling in his feet which is why he doesn't always want to put it down) though he's not using it all the time - he will still hobble around on 3 legs at times and will pick it up when he's just sitting, but he's definitely putting it down more when he's walking and even just standing around. I wish he'd do it all the time though.

He's doing well at hydrotherapy. I like his PT vet though he is confounding her -- yesterday at his appointment we were discussing the fact that he does a lot of stretching the leg out in front of him and she said "he makes my brain hurt" LOL because he's not progressing like he should though uses it perfectly fine in hydrotherapy and when playing with his ball, etc..


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Just took this picture. I can't tell if he's falling asleep with the blue armadillo tail in his mouth or if he just taking a break from chewing on it 🤔


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Oh just an FYI for anyone considering pet insurance - I have found out that Healthy Paws does cover PT without having to have signed up for a special rider - they've been paying Perry's weekly PT appointments with no question so far.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

I love Perry's ortho (and everything major) vet clinic. Background: After the surgery and being in a cast for almost 3 months, Perry only had about a 90degree bend on his wrist (even though nothing was done to his wrist with the surgery - one of the unfortunate unintended consequences of being immobilized for that long). But this week at his PT appointment, his vet noticed that even that has gone away - his wrist basically won't bend back at all. So, she wants us to get an xray to see if either the pin has migrated (there's still a part left in the bone at the lower end because it broke off when they were removing the top part and it wasn't worth the trauma to take the rest out) OR if it could be advancing arthritis (which seems a little sudden to me since last week it still had a bend to it). 

She didnt think we needed to go all the way back to his ortho vet for an xray (though we would send the xrays to her) and suggested I call his normal vet - which I did, but they consider it an anesthesia appointment (which it could be - even though his ortho vets have been doing his xrays without anesthesia it's very possible that with techs and vets he's not as comfortable with and who might have to position and reposition to take the xray they might need a small amount of anesthesia) and they're currently scheduling anesthesia appointments for *mid-Feb*! Of course I don't want to wait that long, so talked to his PT vet to see if we could do it at the clinic where she works - but there they consider an xray appointment like this an emergency appointment (through the emergency room) - and it's not so don't want to deal with that... 

So I called his ortho clinic - his ortho vet is in the office for appointments on Wednesday. Even though they're booked solid, they squeezed us in for next Wednesday. It's not the first time they've shifted things around so that we can get things done either on the same day or quickly. They are a much longer drive for us - which is why we were looking for other options for the xray - but they try so hard to help out


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## BoosDad (Mar 8, 2020)

Hang in there, Perry. Your mom sure takes good care of you. Boo


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

I was just wondering if Perry might have the same problem that happened to me with my wrist fracture after surgery. It's a very long story... My wrist is fine, but I will never be able to straighten my fingers after 1.5 years of PT. I was the 1 in 100 that can have this complication due to swelling. The swelling would not resolve and turned into scar tissue in my hand joints. It took months before I could feel and be able to touch my thumb to my finger tips. After 3 years everything still feels tight. Maybe Perry is guarding his leg because of how it feels? Hoping everything goes well at his appointment.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Hang in there Melissa and Perry! Sending hugs and prayers your way.


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

Thinking of you and Perry during his recovery and hoping the xray results do not detect any further issues.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Heather's said:


> I was just wondering if Perry might have the same problem that happened to me with my wrist fracture after surgery. It's a very long story... My wrist is fine, but I will never be able to straighten my fingers after 1.5 years of PT. I was the 1 in 100 that can have this complication due to swelling. The swelling would not resolve and turned into scar tissue in my hand joints. It took months before I could feel and be able to touch my thumb to my finger tips. After 3 years everything still feels tight. Maybe Perry is guarding his leg because of how it feels? Hoping everything goes well at his appointment.


We were assuming that he wouldn't get any more range of motion in it, which was fine, the concern right now is that he seems to have lost some range, so will see what the xray shows next week.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

We had Perry's check up yesterday - and can I say how much I really like his vet/ clinic. She came out to the parking lot and talked to me for as long as I needed, no impatience or anything. In addition, while a few xrays were covered in the surgery costs - for yesterday's visit the xray AND a laser treatment - they didn't charge us for them.

So, an update. The good news - the pin hasn't moved and the plate still looks good, not impinging on the wrist at all. Of course, that's also part of the bad news because it means that it's not a simple reason why he's lost range of motion. She's seeing arthritis, but no big increase that would account for losing range of motion. She did a laser treatment on it to see if that would help and will be consulting with his PT vet on what we might want to try going forward. She did say that he's improved dramatically from a month ago, in terms of usage, but that he's "at 6 months where we would have wanted him to be at 6 weeks". She is getting about a 60 degree bend on it - it seems to vary because his PT vet one week was seeing no bend, the week before about 50-60 degrees... but all down from the 90 we had after surgery. She did say that it wasn't a major problem though - that it is flexing up properly and that's what's most important for walking/ stability and they can be perfectly fine without any back flex (like, for example, when they fuse ankle bones) - but that the concerning part was that it's gone backwards with no readily discernable reason. There really was no change from his xrays a month ago.

Because she's wondering if it's the arthritis bothering him, we discussed it and decided to put him on Adequan to see if that helps. It's an arthritis med that is an injection (oh joy, I get to inject him sub-cutaneous) that he will get twice a week for a month, then once a week for a month and then every other week. We will see if that makes any difference. Luckily it doesn't have to be refrigerated so we can take it with us when we travel (hopefully there are no specific country prohibitions). We're also keeping him on the gabapentin for the moment as well as the joint supplement and fish oil.

She also mentioned a few other treatments we can try - so was wondering if anyone had any experience with them. There are three other options - aimed at arthritis - (1)hypobaric (2)shockwaves and (3)stem cells. She said that they could do 1 and 2 at the same time or 1 and 3, but won't do 2 and 3 (said there's not enough research on doing them together and there's a fear that the shockwaves will break up the stem cells too much). She said basically it was something that would be done daily over a week and if it worked, that would be it (I presume for a while - maybe when he was older he might need it again?) 

She said that I could either bring him daily OR if I needed to go out of town, for example, I could leave him there and they could do the treatments over the week (as a side note, her eyes lit up when she said that because she said the techs - aka his girlfriends - like it when a pup is there like that because when they're between exams they go and take them out and love on them  - they become the office dog for the week - I'm sure Perry would love that since, when the nurse brought him back out to me, there was no scrambling to reach Mom, he was perfectly happy snuggled in her arms).

So, question - has anyone done any of those treatments and what did you think/ how did they go? I'm going to do some research as well, but interested in your experiences.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

It's been a while since we gave an update... mostly because things have basically stalled. We've been doing PT, accupuncture and cold laser for a few months now with little change - and, in fact, some weeks it feels like we're regressing with him not using his leg as much.

He had his yearly xray visit to his ortho - to recheck the lesions on his spine (no change which is what we want) and an ultrasound of his bladder - to check the nodule they saw the last time. They think there was "minimal" change in size of that - but they want to do a urine test to check for cancer anyway (haven't done it yet... trying to schedule it for March, maybe). His liver enzymes are still high - so the vet put him on a few more supplements (orsodiol, zinc, vitamin E) and wants a recheck blood test in March... and said that he would want to do a biopsy if they were still high. Not sure about that - I thought there was a urine test that could be done first, but still checking on that. In the meantime, that puts Perry up to 8 meds and supplements (cosequin and wellactin / joint supplements. Denamarin, orsodiol, zinc, vitamin E for the liver enzyme levels, adequan for arthritis - though not sure that's actually helping, and gabapentin because thery thought some of the leg issues might be nerve pain, but also not sure that's helping).

As for the leg... it seemed to be improving a bit from the cold laser, but then stalled. I haven't noticed any difference from the accupuncture, but continued it just in case. the last couple of weeks though it feels like he's gone backwards, using the leg less/ hopping around on 3 legs more - though still using the leg most of the time.

All of the vets (ortho, PT, accupuncture) are completely stumped as to what it might be. As I mentioned in the last update, his ortho vet had mentioned a few treatments we could try (hypobaric, stem cell, shockwave) - but it's feeling like we're throwing stuff at it, not sure what's actually wrong (we are doing the gabapentin because it might be nerve pain and that did seem to help somewhat... the adequan is for arthritis even though none of the vets think the arthritis looks that bad yet though it is there and that didn't seem to help. We added acupuncture because that seems to help some dogs with mobility issues, but I haven't really seen any improvement with that. The cold laser was to see if it could improve things, and he had seemed to have gone backwards for a few weeks and that took us back to what I was referring to as the baseline of where we were in December and water therapy had originally gotten us past a point where he was maybe using the leg 50% of the time to using it about 80+% - but nothing has gotten us to consistent use of the leg). 

So, on the advice of his PT vet, we've made an appointment with VOSM (Veterinary Orthopedic and Sports Medicine) outside of Baltimore. They're meant to be the top (one of the top) animal sports medicine clinics in the country / world and have people coming from all over to see them. His PT vet says that's the place she goes with her dogs (she has a couple of search and rescue dogs.) She says that they have every kind of diagnostic equipment known to man and can get to the bottom of what the problem actually is. At this point, that's all I want to know - rather than just adding more meds, or continuing ones that might not be needed/ might not do anything or trying more treatments that may or may not work (and not knowing which did it or why), I want them to figure out what the problem is, what can be done (or not) and pare down treatment to what's actually necessary. 

We have an appointment with the head guy - Dr. Canapp, who the PT vet recommended we see. It was funny because when they finally called us to make the appointment (for new patients, you go and put all the info into an online form, have his records sent, they review and then they call you to make an appointment), they were giving us an appointment with another vet for March 4th. I mentioned that our PT vet had recommended we see Dr. Canapp directly (because of how perplexing this whole thing has been for all of them), and they said that he didn't have an appointment til April, so I said that was fine, we could see the other vet, and worst case if needed we could make a follow up appointment with Dr. Canapp. At that point, they found a free spot with Dr. Canapp on March 7th . So, that's our current plan. 

I'll pick hubby up at the airport on the 5th (he's returning from Ethiopia), do something fun on the 6th, and spend the day at VOSM on the 7th. They did reserve a slot on the 8th for surgery if that turns out to be what's needed (I really hope not, but nice of them to do that just in case). I had to take video of what he does - so I have some videos of him hopping around, some of the hop-skip movement that he does, and some of him sitting there and repositioning the foot, though that one is harder to catch. Then they'll hopefully throw as much of the diagnostics as they have at him... they have an ultrasound scheduled for sure, so I assume they'll be ultrasounding the muscles to see if that could be the problem. I've been told they have things that measure their gait and the pressure they put to see if they're putting their whole weight on it (I know he doesn't always - when he's sitting on me it is obvious sometimes that he's not putting as much weight on that leg as on the other). 

Thank goodness for insurance. We could afford all of this without the insurance, but it's still nice not to have to . This year alone (i.e. Jan 1 - Feb 14) we're at almost $1900 in bills and $1700 in reimbursements and I imagine that the VOSM bill is going to be a crazy amount .


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Wow! A lot going on ! Poor him and poor you. I know it started with surgery rather than an injury, but it reminds me of the two steps forward one step (sometimes three steps!) back with Kodi during his VERY long recovery! 💗


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> Wow! A lot going on ! Poor him and poor you. I know it started with surgery rather than an injury, but it reminds me of the two steps forward one step (sometimes three steps!) back with Kodi during his VERY long recovery! 💗


Thanks Karen. What are your thoughts about VOSM? Did you consider going there with Kodi/ know people who have?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> Thanks Karen. What are your thoughts about VOSM? Did you consider going there with Kodi/ know people who have?


I didn't even know about it until you mentioned it. OTOH, we do have Tufts nearby, and they have a lot of the same available. However, in Kodi's case, we KNEW it was soft tissue, and we KNEW it was his shoulder. So it wasn't quite the same situation. Shoulders are such a funny thing in a dog, because the shoulder blade is not attached with any bone to the rest of the skeleton. There really WAS no chance of a surgical fix. The only "ultimate" option, if he had remained SO painful that we could not have gotten him comfortable any other way would have been to amputate that leg. (at which point, my very good sports medicine vet and I had already discussed that he would be referred to an orthopedist at Tufts) And FORTUNATELY, we never to that point. We were able to control his pain with meds while we VERY SLOWLY and carefully worked him through the rehab process. 

The biggest problem was that, being a dog and not understanding, the minute he felt better, he'd do something to hurt himself again...


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Hi Melissa, I noted you haven't been around too much recently, so it is good to get this update. You do have a lot on your plate right now!

I cannot offer anything with regards to Perry's issue other than wish you and Perry well. The only advice I can offer from my personal experiences is to be patient but persistent while remaining optimistic in achieving your goals. Your update appears that you are doing that with regards to Perry. So keep us posted on your progress with a good resolution to Perry's ailments. All of us on HF are here to give you moral support if nothing else.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> I didn't even know about it until you mentioned it. OTOH, we do have Tufts nearby, and they have a lot of the same available. However, in Kodi's case, we KNEW it was soft tissue, and we KNEW it was his shoulder. So it wasn't quite the same situation. Shoulders are such a funny thing in a dog, because the shoulder blade is not attached with any bone to the rest of the skeleton. There really WAS no chance of a surgical fix. The only "ultimate" option, if he had remained SO painful that we could not have gotten him comfortable any other way would have been to amputate that leg. (at which point, my very good sports medicine vet and I had already discussed that he would be referred to an orthopedist at Tufts) And FORTUNATELY, we never to that point. We were able to control his pain with meds while we VERY SLOWLY and carefully worked him through the rehab process.
> 
> The biggest problem was that, being a dog and not understanding, the minute he felt better, he'd do something to hurt himself again...


I didn't know about it either - I had only ever really heard about Cornell (NY) here - but the PT vet said VOSM is the top and to go there, so that's where we're going . 

The good news is that it doesn't really slow him down. He's still running and doing zoomies and jumping all over the place (and fingers crossed we never have to consider restricting that long term - because then it becomes a decision between current quality of life versus longevity). So we will see what they say and go from there. As long as he's not in pain, I'm ok if he continues to limp and sometimes not use it, I just want answers as to why and what we can expect/ the best we can get from the right treatment.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> Wow! A lot going on ! Poor him and poor you. I know it started with surgery rather than an injury, but it reminds me of the two steps forward one step (sometimes three steps!) back with Kodi during his VERY long recovery! 💗


I can handle the steps forward and steps back if (1)we were sure what we were doing was actually addressing the problem and (2)there were still some steps forward, instead of feeling like we weren't making any forward progress at all right now and were just regressing again. So fingers crossed that the next visit will give us some answers. Glad it's only in a couple of weeks, I'd been told it can sometimes take months to get an appointment with them.


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## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

Melissa, you're an awesome Mom, Perry sure is a lucky boy. Sending positive vibes and hugs to you and your sweet Perry. 💓🙏


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> I didn't know about it either - I had only ever really heard about Cornell (NY) here - but the PT vet said VOSM is the top and to go there, so that's where we're going .
> 
> The good news is that it doesn't really slow him down. He's still running and doing zoomies and jumping all over the place (and fingers crossed we never have to consider restricting that long term - because then it becomes a decision between current quality of life versus longevity). So we will see what they say and go from there. As long as he's not in pain, I'm ok if he continues to limp and sometimes not use it, I just want answers as to why and what we can expect/ the best we can get from the right treatment.


Yes, it's not the same situation. Kodi was clearly in pain. He would shake with pain and cry.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> Yes, it's not the same situation. Kodi was clearly in pain. He would shake with pain and cry.


This one needs a "hug" emoticon


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## BoosDad (Mar 8, 2020)

Perry is very lucky to have you. Wish you guys only the best.


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

Sending hugs and kisses from Molly and I for Perry's continued recovery and hoping for some answers to your questions. 💕


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> This one needs a "hug" emoticon


It was very sad at the time, but fortunately, he's doing really well now, although he'll never be a competition dog again!


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Melissa you are the best Mom ever! Hoping the new specialist will have answers for you. Wishing Perry a complete recovery. 💜


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## LWalks (Feb 7, 2021)

Sorry to hear about the stalls in progress, but hoping the new vet has some answers for you— not knowing is the hardest! And Perry is SO lucky to have such a loving an tenacious mama in his corner!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

I realized I hadn't updated here in a while so thought I'd post a new one. We're heading out on a 2 month trip to Kenya next weekend so we've been getting all sorts of vet stuff sorted out before that.

In the last couple of months we still haven't figured out the problem totally, but Dr. Canapp (VOSM) and Perry's regular ortho vet seem to be in agreement that the most likely problem is that there's too much metal in his leg and it's causing him discomfort and that the best course of action is to try to remove the screws and plate from his leg. We had a CT scan done in March which seemed to indicate that the bone under the plate was what they call a "partial non-union" - it hasn't healed fully/ solidly. So before we can consider pulling any screws which will make the bone even less stable we need to try to get it built up. The CT scan also cannot rule out osteomyelitis or a bone infection causing the bone to not completely heal properly. The treatment plan has been (1)shockwave treatment on 2 places in the leg (and the elbow to try to break up some of the arthritis) (2)ultrasound on those places as well (we were recommended to get a portable ultrasound machine called an exogen which is used on people for bone healing - you can get them online from people who were prescribed them for their own bone healing - they are good for a certain number of treatments so cheaper than new) - we were really happy that Healthy Paws actually covered the cost of the machine and (3)an antibiotic for a few months to deal with the potential infection.

He's had 2 shockwaves and has his third next week. We got the exogen a week ago so have been doing that every day - 20 minutes on each spot - and Perry has been so incredibly patient lying there for 40 minutes so quietly while I hold the ultrasound on his leg.

The vet is going to do a new xray Tuesday to see if we have had any change... and then the plan is to continue the exogen and antibiotics while we're in Kenya and then get a new xray or CT scan when we're back in July to see if we're ready to remove any screws. Then we will do a couple of screws at a time - having to let them heal in between so I assume that means continuing the exogen, possibly packing the area with stem cells or bone marrow to help healing and then considering if we remove the other screws and the plate or not.

I am worried that he's still got pain or something in the foot... he actually was nipping at his groomer on Thursday when she was trying to cut his nails and he's never done that before. I'm going to bring that up to the vet on Tuesday.

Between the leg and his raised liver enzyme levels he's on waaaaay too many meds and supplements.
Leg:
Adequan shots twice a month
Cosequin (joint supplement)
Welactin (fish oil supplement)
Cephalexen (antibiotic)
Gabapentin (for nerve pain)

Liver:
Denamarin
Ursodiol
Zinc
Vitamin E

I also added a probiotic back since he's on an antibiotic and the occasional trazadone to help with anxiety/ when he needs to stay calm for vet procedures, etc.

He doesn't mind being on so many things because it means more peanut butter for him.

Right now we're getting ready to go to Kenya - which means a USAD endorsed health certificate. Our regular vet is so great because you now have to do the health certificates online (which she never did before but she's doing for me) and then, "because of COVID" (in reality I think it just makes their life easier not having to deal with people) USDA is not accepting in person appointments to get the endorsement so it has to be FEDEX/ UPS overnight back to me - so stressing a little about getting it back in time/ before we travel.


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## Cassandra (Dec 29, 2015)

Thanks for updating us. You are amazing, balancing all of the things on your plate and Perry’s!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Woe! What a lot going on! I don’t know how you handle all the international stuff so calmly and so “ routinely”! But I know how much you love being “out there”, so I’m really happy for you!


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

Wishing you safe travels and success with the further treatment that Perry has to undergo. ❤


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Wow…what you and Perry have been through is mind boggling. I hope these issues resolve themself soon. This has to be so difficult! Sending hugs and prayers to you both.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> Woe! What a lot going on! I don’t know how you handle all the international stuff so calmly and so “ routinely”! But I know how much you love being “out there”, so I’m really happy for you!


I was actually just laughing about that the other day... I think we were watching something on TV and turned to hubby and said "we live a very weird life" - for most people traveling to Kenya would be a once in a lifetime trip... for us - I have to go for 2 weeks for works so we figured, what the heck, we both love Nairobi, let's go for 2 months instead , US side of the travel booked (rental car and hotel in DC), Airbnbs booked (both with yards), trying to figure out if they'll allow Perry on the train from Nairobi to Mombasa so we can go there for a week or so... no safaris this time because pets are strictly forbidden at all of the safari lodges, visas obtained, so now just waiting for Perry's import permit and USDA endorsed health certificate. All in addition to the pesky thing called work . 

I am very curious as to what TSA is going to think about the exogen machine in my carry one (since it has a lithium battery it can't go in checked bags plus it's a fairly expensive piece of equipment so it's coming with me) along with all the usual things I have in my carry one (good size backup battery pack - like a small power bank but big enough to charge a computer), computer, cables, phones, medicines (Perry's and mine), etc. 

I am also hoping that Perry's leg doesn't set off the metal detector  first time traveling since he got the plate!

We have our visas (used to be able to get them on arrival but now you have to do an evisa which is a pain!) but I will admit to stressing a little about whether we will get Perry's USDA/ APHIS certificate back in time -- never had to worry about that before because any time we did need it officially endorsed we could make an appointment and stop in person in Harrisburg on the way to the airport... but they are not taking in person appointments so I am stressing about getting it back in time (finite window - for Kenya it has to be no more than 5 days before travel... and the USDA office needs "up to 3 days" to process it, so worried that they will be too efficient and get it sent out on Monday OR that they'll take longer than their 3 days... going to stop now before I end up spiraling thinking about it!)

But yes, we do live a weird life...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I'd think his plate WOULD set off the metal detector. I'd just declare it at TSA and have them hand-scan him. Just as you would for a human with a metal implant.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> I'd think his plate WOULD set off the metal detector. I'd just declare it at TSA and have them hand-scan him. Just as you would for a human with a metal implant.


There were some discussions when it was put in (I think) about it being titanium and that titanium doesn't set off detectors, but I really can't remember if it actually is titanium  but in any event, I have pictures of his leg if they question it


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> There were some discussions when it was put in (I think) about it being titanium and that titanium doesn't set off detectors, but I really can't remember if it actually is titanium  but in any event, I have pictures of his leg if they question it



Cool!


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Melissa - all I can say is Wow. You are a busy family!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

So I realized that I hadn't posted anything on Perry's "exogen" treatment - before we left the US he got 3 shockwave treatments on his leg, to break up the arthritis and stimulate bone growth. We'll check it out when we're back in July to see if the bone has filled in more.

The specialist in Baltimore also recommended the exogen (I think I mentioned that before), after they did a trial and showed that it did help to speed up bone healing in dogs (it's made/ approved for people). We have to use it every day or every other day on 2 parts of his leg - so 20 minute treatment per part.

Perry hates it. He's great about lying there quietly for the treatment, but as soon as open the case and start taking the stuff out, he moves away from me and I have to go get him to do it.

Here are some pictures. The little disk under my fingers gets coated in ultrasound gel and is attached to the machine.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Update. We had a recheck yesterday to see if the shockwave and exogen/ultrasound have resulted in bone growth. Unfortunately, it's not looking like the bone has grown more in this time (though the vet was going to send the scans off to a radiologist for their insight). The plan has been to get the bones to fill in more and then start removing screws with the eventual plan of removing the plate. We were anticipating that the bone would have filled in more and that we'd be doing another surgery in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, Perry has also been using the leg more - he still isn't 100%- especially when he's stopped or sitting he will pick the foot up, but he's rarely walking around on 3 legs right now, when he's moving he's almost always on all 4. 

So his ortho vet and I had a discussion. My position is that I do want him to be using the leg, but I don't want to remove the plate if it might mean that we have to restrict his jumping long-term. We can do it during recovering, but I don't want a situation where we remove the plate but the bone isn't completely strong so I have to restrict him from running and jumping around forever. I prefer him to limp a bit and maybe not use the leg all the time but still be able to run around (he get such joy from it) rather than a leg that may technically be more sound / no plate, but means long-term restrictions.

The vet agreed - while she would like him to be completely orthopedically sound, she is also balancing the long-term restrictions (and even shorter-term restrictions since, with his slow bone growth, recovery from removing screws could be several moths - and that would be at least twice - so could mean being on restrictions for 6 months after removing the screws and the plate) with quality of life. 

We've decided to continue doing the exogen/ ultrasound treatment and do a recheck in 2 months to see if there has been improvement or not (we need to do a few other checks at the same time - bladder ultrasound to check the nodule there, possibly a follow-up on the eye exam from last year's recommendation, liver enzyme check). In the meantime, he's running around and enjoying himself which is what's most important. 

I do wish we could reduce the amount of meds, but I got a pill crusher which helps with his morning meds. I have an alarm set for his evening meds - which he knows means he's getting a treat so he perks up when the alarm goes off . 

The question, of course, is pain - and we're still not sure if there is nerve pain from the surgery or if that's causing his picking up the leg at times. I need to discuss with the vet whether it's worth doing a neurological exam - and if they find something is it something we can do something about or not.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Thanks for the update Melissa. I am so sorry that this just keeps going on and on. What a tough situation. Hang in there.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Thanks for the update. You and he are certainly troopers. The holding up the leg when sitting COULD be just habit, or even slight shortening of the tendons from having done it for so long at this point too. While it's bad news that the bone hasn't filled in more, it's GREAT news that he's using his leg more!


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## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

Thank you for keeping us posted. You are an awesome Mom and Perry is a special boy. So glad you found each other.
All positive vibes going forward from us. 💖


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

When I was going through some recent pictures I realized I had one that showed his leg really well. You can see that it's still crooked / bent, but the twist is really improved.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> When I was going through some recent pictures I realized I had one that showed his leg really well. You can see that it's still crooked / bent, but the twist is really improved.
> 
> View attachment 178448


Wow!!! That is a FANTASTIC improvement!!!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Great improvement!


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## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

So glad to see the improvement in Perry. You must be very happy too!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Ditto's Mom said:


> So glad to see the improvement in Perry. You must be very happy too!


Thanks - I'm not sure I would do it again if I were to go back in time, but we're at a point where I think we're relatively happy He is still limping significantly but it using it all the time now (he only lifts it when he's sitting or standing sometimes, not all the time). I am happy with how straight it's gotten (relatively speaking  )


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> Thanks - I'm not sure I would do it again if I were to go back in time, but we're at a point where I think we're relatively happy He is still limping significantly but it using it all the time now (he only lifts it when he's sitting or standing sometimes, not all the time). I am happy with how straight it's gotten (relatively speaking  )


We can always second-guess ourselves, but if he started having more HIND end problems and you HADN'T done it, you would have second guessed in the other direction. So there's that... Don't forget that angle too! 💕


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> We can always second-guess ourselves, but if he started having more HIND end problems and you HADN'T done it, you would have second guessed in the other direction. So there's that... Don't forget that angle too! 💕


Oh absolutely, that's where the problem is . I do believe I made the best/ right decision at the time. Who could have known he would have been in the small percentage of pups that have so many issues and especially slow bone growth .


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> Oh absolutely, that's where the problem is . I do believe I made the best/ right decision at the time. Who could have known he would have been in the small percentage of pups that have so many issues and especially slow bone growth .


I know!!! Who would guess that my son and DIL, NEITHER of whom have any problem with anesthesia, and NEITHER of whom have any family HISTORY of that, would marry and have a child who has a genetic intolerance to certain common forms of anesthesia and doesn’t wake up from them. Causing her to be intubated and in the ICU for several days after what SHOULD have been simple “day surgery” as a toddler! It turns out each of them have a SINGLE copy of a VERY rare gene. Put those genes together, and you have a kid whose lungs are paralyzed, and doesn’t wake up after surgery! Just our luck!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Perry leg (and other health things) update... he had a major checkup this week. Since his specialist vet clinic is an hour and a half away, we try to get everything done on the same day and the clinic is great about scheduling it all. I honestly don't think that Perry has soooo much more wrong with him than other dogs - I think a lot of this is because he's so small so when he's had his leg scans they also end up scanning more of his body than you would with a bigger dog so pick up things which may exist in many dogs but are never seen. That's how they picked up the lesions on his spine (luckily they were benign - though we will xray annually to ensure that they don't start growing).

This vet visit included (1)opthamologist (his previous CT scan showed an anomaly so they wanted to recheck after 6 months/ 1 year) - so ultrasound of his eye, (2)liver enzymes (they've been high since June of last year), (3) ultrasound of his bladder (CT scan had shown a "nodule" on his bladder so they needed to recheck after 6 months to ensure it hasn't grown), and (4)recheck of his leg to see if the bone density has improved.

Our hope for the exam was that most things stayed the same and didn't get worse - but to our great surprise there were actually major improvements.

nothing wrong with the eye (they're putting it down to an "artifact" on the CT scan previously) - and no need to recheck in the future.
bladder nodule has actually gotten smaller/ almost disappeared - no need to recheck in the future
liver enzymes - after more than a year of being elevated, this time they were absolutely normal! The internal med specialist thinks we should continue with the denamarin and ursodiol meds - which I agree - it's only 1 good test. If they're still normal at the next visit I'll discuss with the vet whether we need to continue with them. We will continue blood tests every 6 months to check.
the leg - the vet felt that he was looking more sound and solid than he ever had. She thought that the bone density looked better (though the radiologist that she consulted with didn't seem to think there was much change). He does still have a limp and (as she describes) likes to stand like a pointer, but she thought he was looking good. He did have what she describes as an "arthritis flareup" a few weeks ago when he stopped using it for a day or so (she agreed that my strategy of upping his gabapentin for a few days was the way to go with that.) Regardless, we both agree that as long as he's looking ok and using the leg that it's better to leave it be. We had planned to try to take the plate out - but that would require at least 2 surgeries (taking a couple of screws out first, then waiting for that to fill back in and then the rest) as well as months of crate rest which is not ideal. I prefer the plate to stay in for stability when he's running and jumping. So, the leg will get checked/ xrayed every 6 months to ensure that the plate is not affecting the bone (which it can).

Overall, a really great visit and great news on many of the outstanding issues.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Wow great news!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

That sounds like all-round great news!


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## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

Awesome news for you and Perry!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Well, it's taken almost a year and a half, but I think the extreme sensitivity in his foot has gone away! I felt like it was getting better the last few months when I could touch his foot without him flinching/ pulling it away as much and the last time I dremeled his nails a couple of months ago (in between grooming visits) I didn't feel the need to wrap him like a burrito  but I dremeled him yesterday and he did really well. I did have to go slow with his left front (but that's always been the case because he has always hated his front feet being done) but he barely pulled away and there wasn't really any flinching. I may check with the vet and get some 25mg gabapentin to see if I can lower the dose of that as well.


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## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

Great news! We love it when are pups are happy and not in pain.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

YAY!!!


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