# Scratch scratch scratch



## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

I took this video of Sophie's scratching (which seriously totally drives us both insane!)  to show her breeder to see if he had any ideas. He did have some good suggestions! He has been great.

Thought I'd post it here again to see if anyone has insight. She pretty much scratches only her face, chin ears. This has been going on since she was 5.5 months old. Hallie had inhalent allergies but she would mainly bite the pads of her feet, which Sophie doesn't. And hers would go away in the winter.

I've done a bunch of testing and diet changes to fit the results with no change.

I use a medicate shampoo. We to to holistic vet for NAET treatments often. She is on chinese herbs and supplements (external wind, super quercetin). I make a tonic of witch hazel, apple cider vinegar and water. Trimmed her face short. Tried coconut oil, etc etc. Nothing seems to make any difference.

I haven't gone to drugs yet because am giving the holistic approach my all as it usually takes longer than western meds but is so much easier on them! And we are still trying some things with her.

Her breeder had a good thought, wondered if it's possible she has a deeper inner ear parasite or yeast...since she has always scratched on or near her ears and really is not itchy anywhere else on her body. Wondering if it could be something deeper than an instrument could see or that she could tolerate while awake.

He has never had an allergy issues in any dogs in her line. If he had I would definitely think allergies but since she hasn't I am praying it might be something like the ear theory.

He also feels she should not have gotten so ill as she did last week just from an abrupt food change (happened when sitter was here while I was gone over the weekend). Since started to act funny after her first meal of it then got very sick after her 2nd meal they chalked it up to food change but weren't sure. He suspects something in the food was bad. I found a place (expensive!!) to send the food off for testing. I am praying also that this is the case so I know it will be an isolated event! Anyone ever hear of a dog reacting this badly to sudden food change? Breeder also says he usually has no problem with changing food, he does it all the time, and the worst that has ever happened has been maybe a dog getting a little loose stool for a day. Sophie was vomiting blood and diarrhea the next day started in and was critical so fast from dehydration could have lost her. I agree it seems extreme if from the food change. Plus she had been on the food she got so sick on, before with no issues at all. Change was more gradual then maybe 3-4 days tops but she had no symptoms then.

Would love any input on either of these things. Here is the video showing how and where she itches. It waxes and wans and this is toward the worst of it end of the spectrum but even at it's best she definitely scratches much more in a day than the average dog. (and ignore the licking part, Sophie apologizes but this was when she was still sick so was kind of...um...cleaning her bum)  Wasn't part of her normal scratching routine.


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

Have you had Sophie's thyroid tested? Not sure if that's the issue but some allergy issues are related.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Yes her thyroid is ok. But good thought!


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## Eveningpiper (Sep 23, 2015)

From the video my feeling is that it could well be an ear problem. Is that a himalayan chew next to Sophie? If so, that would be a milk product which can contribute to ear problems. I hope you get to the root of the problem for Sophie's sake and your peace of mind, not to mention pocketbook.


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## boomana (Jul 9, 2015)

I got nothing, but just want to say I hope there's an answer and an easy solution soon.


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## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

Have you tried a homeopathic consultation with a trained veterinarian homeopath? They might find a remedy that would help her.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Poor little girl, do't you just ache for her and start scratching your own ears in sympathy?! 

I'm glad her breeder is caring and concerned... Is he thinking you might have to put her under so that a good vet could look deep inside her ears? I wish she wouldn't have to be put under, but it sure does look like it is her ears that she's trying to get scratched. That makes me just cringe for her.

And I certainly haven't heard of a dog being so sick from a fast food change, either. Diarrhea, yes, (voice of experience here.) What food did she suddenly eat when she got sick? I'm sure you've already checked for recalls. Are you going to have it tested?


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Poor Sophie! I don't blame you for being so concerned. It does look like it's in the ear area to me too.

In regards to her getting so sick recently. I was thinking about the time of year it is and everyone starting to do yard work and using chemicals on the yards and gardens. Do you think perhaps she walked in something like fertilizer or weed killer and then licked her feet? Our neighbors are really good about telling the dog people in our little community when they put something down on their lawns. There are only 6 of us in our gated community and 4 of us have dogs that we walk. However, a few years ago one of our neighbors lost their kitty and he thinks it was due to him putting down a weed and feed product on the lawn.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

> From the video my feeling is that it could well be an ear problem. Is that a himalayan chew next to Sophie? If so, that would be a milk product which can contribute to ear problems. I hope you get to the root of the problem for Sophie's sake and your peace of mind, not to mention pocketbook.


It's an acadia moose antler (she's not had a himalayan chew I worry about the milk too). But that was a great thought. I am glad to hear you say it could be an ear problem too because I would love that way over allergies!  I've had all kinds of problems in the past with my dogs but not ear ones so not familiar with it.

Thanks Boomama we'll take the support! 

Pucks yes we have been going to a wonderful holistic vet for a few months now working on this. We go two to four times a month and it's an hour and a half away but with traffic often takes us 3-4 hours each way. Awful drive. But she's really good. Although puppy is still itching. We've been working on diet, NAET treatment, she's on supplements and herbs for the itching etc. Had the nutriscan saliva test with Dr Dodds and between them both found foods she has intolerances to. So diet changes, special shampoos, tonics...plus have tried western stuff, prescription antihistamines, etc etc but none have helped yet. So hopefully that further points to a possible ear issue. We are going to holistic vet again next week and she is putting her on a new diet again (home cooked) to address her tummy issues from last week. She doesn't like dogs under 1, older or with issues to have raw.

Sheri oh yes it brings me to tears! I feel so horrible for her I would take it on for her if I could. Yes breeder has been wonderful. He said he was awake most of the night thinking about all this. His puppies are usually so healthy. He doesn't know for sure of course but he thinks it's an ear thing also, possibly down deep where they can't see with an instrument and that she may have to be put under to really get a look. I am praying he's right and can fix this!

I agree about the food change! I've never had a dog get sick from a change in food at all much less to the critical point she did. I feed her Stella and Chewys frozen raw. Lately, because of her food intolerances, I've been going with the things not on the bad list so have been alternating between chicken and beef. So she's on one for up to 6 weeks then I take a few days to switch her to the other (and never seen any symptoms at all) for about 6 weeks etc. So she has been on chicken for about 6 weeks, it was time for me to switch her but was waiting until after that weekend so puppy sitter would not have to deal with remembering. But she ran out of chicken so on Saturday Sophie got both meals all chicken. Next morning she opened a new bag of food but didn't realize it was beef and not chicken. So Sophie got part chicken, part beef that morning. She said she seemed a little less active during that day (she was fine the day before silly and playing). For dinner she got all beef. I came home about 2 hours or so later and could tell something was wrong. Tail down, etc. Shortly after she vomited in a manner that would have landed her a role in the Exorcist. I think I may even have seen her head turn clear around!  And by the next day she was critical (dehydration) and didn't eat at all for over 3 days (was in hospital the whole time).

I did track down a place in Iowa where I can send it in for testing. It is very expensive so I was waiting to see if we got a definitive diagnosis and knew it was not the food. But since we still don't know, I am going to call them tomorrow and see how to get this started. Yes there was a voluntary recall for Stella and Chewys raw about a year ago but it was not for beef and no animals had gotten sick from it. Their lab just found a trace of lysteria or something so they did a voluntary recall to be safe.

Thanks Jackie I was concerned about some kind of poison also. I don't use weed and feed or anything on my lawn, I'm a freak about anything toxic so don't have or use any sprays, etc. The sitter knows not to take Sophie out of the house only to the back yard that is securely fenced 6 ft. I don't even let her take her out the front door (we have a picket fence but a big dog could get over it so she's always on leash out there). Sitter did leave for about an hour that day which was fine we had talked about that and as I asked she had put her in a crate for the while she was gone.

So it could have been poison of some kind I guess, maybe a bird dropped something or?? But not likely and due to the timing of the food change would make it the top suspect. That was the other thing the breeder said, that he changes food on his dogs all the time and at worse one might have a little loose stool for one day but nothing like this.

I'll be praying hard for tainted food and ear problem! Never thought I'd be praying FOR that stuff lol.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Oh and! Sad Sophie has left the building and crazy Sophie has entered the room! Totally out of control funny nutty puppy yesterday.  Wonderful!


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## RonniB (Jan 21, 2016)

Poor sweet Sophie and her ears....I have no thoughts at all, but certainly hope that you can get some answers.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Poor little girl! Looks like it's an ear problem. Hope you find a solution soon.
I have changed Scout and Truffles food several times without any problems except maybe a loose stool for a day. My first thought was there was something in the food that caused Sophie to be so sick. Good idea to have the food tested! I never thought about the chemicals on lawns. We use only use organic fertilizer here. I would ask the sitter where she walked Sophie. Such a relief to know Sophie is feeling like her old self! 😊


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

It gives me such hope to hear you guys think it could be an ear problem also. That would be wonderful! 

Heather when you change S and T's food how long is the transition time? I am glad that so many are thinking this was an extreme reaction to a food change. I'd rather it be something bad in the food than from her being really sensitive and this happening again. Her breeder says the exact same thing as you, maybe a loose stool the first day on a dog or two then nothing. 

I don't allow the sitter to take Sophie out of the house. Or let anyone else come in especially anyone with dogs. She goes in the back yard only and like you I have only used organic fertilizer and that was many weeks ago and I kept the sprinklers going and kept her out of the yard for a good week (the bag says 12 hours) to be safe. Other than that no chemicals what soever. 

It is really great to have her being so silly and naughty again! If not for that poodle leg wouldn't know she was sick LOL


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Dee Dee said:


> It gives me such hope to hear you guys think it could be an ear problem also. That would be wonderful!
> 
> Heather when you change S and T's food how long is the transition time? I am glad that so many are thinking this was an extreme reaction to a food change. I'd rather it be something bad in the food than from her being really sensitive and this happening again. Her breeder says the exact same thing as you, maybe a loose stool the first day on a dog or two then nothing.
> 
> ...


I just added a little bit of ZiwiPeak instead of Ancana to the other food we feed them for three days. I increased the amount each day. Scout is a little more sensitive to changes. Truffles never has any problems changing foods. We always feed them chicken or roast beef, vegetable, teaspoon cottage cheese and sprinkling of ZiwiPeak. I keep a scoop of ZiwiPeak in a bowl so they can graze during the day. I first bought the beef and now the venison. They seem to like it.
So glad Sophie is back being a naughty girl! &#128524; It's so very upsetting when you don't know what is wrong. &#128543;


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dee Dee said:


> It gives me such hope to hear you guys think it could be an ear problem also. That would be wonderful!
> 
> Heather when you change S and T's food how long is the transition time? I am glad that so many are thinking this was an extreme reaction to a food change. I'd rather it be something bad in the food than from her being really sensitive and this happening again. Her breeder says the exact same thing as you, maybe a loose stool the first day on a dog or two then nothing.
> 
> ...


The way Sophie is scratching DOES look just like what Kodi does when he gets an ear infection. They DO go along with food intolerances and other allergies too. Kodi has them at least a couple of time a year... Often enough that the vet just has us keep the ear medicine on hand. Interestingly, The vet has told us that if we need to treat one ear, we should automatically treat the other ear (but less drops and for a shorter period) because even if just one seems bad, it's probably brewing in the other one too.

Another thing I happened to see on a vet program on TV a few nights ago was a lop eared rabbit where they suspected an ear infection, but couldn't see deeply enough into his ears. They xrayed his skull, and were able to see the infection on the xrays. I have no idea whether it's possible for a dog to get an infection deep enough that the vet can't see it, but...

Finally, like everyone else, while I've had the occasional loose stools from food changes, (mostly Kodi)nothing even REMOTELY approaching what happened with Sophie. Which makes me suspect SOME sort of toxicity... whether in the food, or something she got into. And it may be something you can never pin down for sure... a wild animal could have carried something rotten into the yard, there could have been some infectious agent in bird droppings... who knows? We can't keep them in a bubble, as long as we'd sometimes like to!

Speaking of bubbles... I had to chuckle when I read that you don't let the sitter taker her out of the yard. My sitter always feels like she's not doing her full job when I tell her I don't want her to walk my guy, but just play with them either in the yard or in the house, depending on the weather. But I couldn't forgive myself if something happened and one of them slipped out of their harness and got hit by a car... or whatever.

We had a very responsible Havanese breeder take a friend's dog to sit for a couple of days. The dog got away from her, and was never seen again. They live right on the edge of a state forest, where there is a known pack of coyotes. You can, I'm sure, guess what I'm quite sure happened to that little guy. Dogs, even the friendliest ones, don't always act the same when "mom or dad" isn't there with them.


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## Zoe093014 (Jan 27, 2015)

Zoe used to scratch when she was a tiny puppy and it was due to a yeast infection in her ears. It cleared up with the ear medication and the scratching stopped. I switch from chicken to. beef (not gradually) without a reaction so I also think there was something else going on. I am leaning to the "something wrong with that bag of food" theory as well. I really find it hard to believe that such an extreme illness was due to a change from the chicken to the beef.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Sorry to hear that about Kodi! Dang. I was really hoping maybe we weren't dealing with allergies after all but some kind of yeast or parasite or something down really deep.  Her breeder had some good comments. One that of the 100+ dogs he's bred and puppies he's sold not one that he knows of every had ANY kind of skin or allergy or food issue of any kind. And I'm sure he has kept tabs on the majority at least. He makes a good point that it's odd my Hallie had allergies, then to have my next dog have allergies, so 2 back to back, plus the fact that he has never, unless not hearing of one, had an allergy dog in her line, that the chances should be pretty slim she has true allergies. I know all that is no guarantee but still makes me wonder if there is something we are missing. Her food intolerences are mild to a couple of moderates. Again I know that doesn't tell the whole story but just seems she's having a lot of problems that her line hasn't experienced including the tummy thing. 

Funny you mentioned the rabbit too, her breeder also suggested she be sedated so they can go way down deep to really see what is going on down there. I didn't know they could tell from an xray also. Will be talking to vet about this on Thursday. 

Yes possible she got into something but again I think the chances would be extremely remote. Where we live we have very close, over the fence neighbors. I know there are critters at night there has to be but rarely over the 30 years have I seen one. They would have to really work to get over my fence, 6 feet with a peaked top. Even if they did I can't imagine what they could have dropped that would have made her so sick. No way a rabbit could get in. I'd bet good money she would not pick up anything like a dead something (again never seen anything like that in 30 years) and I would have seen any poop and never have seen other animal poop in all these years either. I don't use anything toxic. I have never seen her try to pick up bird droppings. Unless it's her own poop she thinks most things are disgusting . Not that any of these things couldn't have happened, but it would be very unlikely. Plus the timing of the food change fits so perfectly, she was totally normal all day Saturday and still getting her usual chicken meals. Sunday morning sitter reached bottom of bag, so opened another not realizing it was beef and not chicken. So she had a part chicken/part beef breakfast. Sitter said after that she seemed more subdued for her. Her dinner was all beef and an hour or 2 later she had pretty much projectile vomiting and was critical from then on. So if it wasn't the food, it would have been a lot of coincidences and flukes to lead us to it being something else.

What a horrible story about that poor havanese! OMGosh that would not be bearable. I have had a lot of people offer to take her in their home and watch her but I would NEVER do that, risk of stuff happening sky rockets. Boarding is even worse. Thankfully I don't have to leave Sophie often. Only twice so far and both for Hallie things, her documentary premiere in February for 4 days and last weekend to the childrens book writers conference, for Hallie's books (and soon to be Sophie books also!) I do photography for Cavalia/Odysseo when they come to town, and they are coming to Portland in a couple of weeks and have asked me to also do a side project for them (last time I took photos of all of the performers for the catalog, as well as the show). So I will have to have sitter come then too but that will only be a day thing. Every time I've been before I had Hallie with me and took a friend to watch her (right there with me) while I photographed. So will be strange no Hallie this time. 

And maybe no me if I chicken out leaving her home again!


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

some secret photos of Hallie and the Cavalia folks She was the most awesome little girl and had a lot of adventures! I sure miss her wish she and Sophie could have been young together.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

...


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Thank you Zoe's mom that is encouraging!!! How did they diagnose her yeasty ears/ Sophie's has no odor or discharge but wondering if it couldn't be down really deep . Did you happen to see the video of Sophie scratching did Zoe look like that? So glad you were able to fix her!

I agree there has to be something with that darn food. Anxious to get it sent off and tested!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dee Dee said:


> ...


Oh, I LOVE them!!!


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## Zoe093014 (Jan 27, 2015)

Dee Dee,
I think they might have swabbed it and then put it under a microscope. Also they said there was an odor. She did look like Sophie's scratching and I also thought she might have had allergies. I am anxious to hear about the results of the food bag testing. The important thing is she is back to her old self, thank God! :smile2:


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Dee Dee, did they ever take a stool sample when Sophie was sick? I've heard that dogs can get e-coli just like we can and the symptoms sure sound like e-coli.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

I will have to google "Cavalia", Hallie looks so pretty, but those men look a bit intimidating... 

Edited: Oh, WOW! That would be an awesome group to see!!!


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Thanks so much for this info!
Sophie doesn't have much of an odor in her ears that I can tell. Do you remember if it was a really strong odor with Zoe? I'll be anxious to hear what vet says tomorrow. And will find out then too where she suggests I get the food tested. YES important thing is she is better thank God is right!  She has been totally out of control silly and I'm loving it! She has me rolling!  I keep telling her most people would be selling her in a box in front of Wal Mart by now but she doesn't care. LOL. 

You know Jackie, they didn't! Now seems obvious they should have. I wish they had!!!

Sheri guy who started Cavalia was with Cirque du Soleil (sp) The performance was amazing but since the new Odysseo version, it's beyond spectacular. At the end they fill the stage with water it's like a huge pond and horses run loose through it, acrobats, riders with a huge screen behind of gorgeous scenery. Live music...breathtaking. Many of the performers are from other countries. The best thing is the horses are treated very well and they get a nice long vacation after the season where they get to hang in big pastures and not have to work. They seem to love what they do though. I've not really seen much body language from them saying the don't want to be there.


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## Zoe093014 (Jan 27, 2015)

She must feel good then!!!! Totally out of control silly is what they do when they feel good !!!! :smile2:


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Yes absolutely!  Loving every minute of it. She is like a Monty Python movie...

Do you remember if Zoe's ears were stinky enough that it was really noticable? Sophie doesn't have much odor maybe a little. I want there to be odor LOL!


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> Dee Dee, did they ever take a stool sample when Sophie was sick? I've heard that dogs can get e-coli just like we can and the symptoms sure sound like e-coli.


I would think the first test that would be done is a stool culture. I was concerned because the symptoms appeared to be e.coli or some other food borne bug. If it is e.coli I would clean all surfaces with bleach so she will not be reinfected. It will be interesting to find out if it was the food.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Sheri said:


> I will have to google "Cavalia", Hallie looks so pretty, but those men look a bit intimidating...
> 
> Edited: Oh, WOW! That would be an awesome group to see!!!


Oh, Sheri!!! If you've never seen Cavalia, keep an eye out for when they are performing in a city near you. It is the most breath-taking combination of horses, "circus" and acrobatics you can't even imagine!!! It is a night of pure magic!!!


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

I will ask about that tomorrow. Maybe they did and I didn't know it but I looked on the invoice and didn't see it listed. I can't believe I didn't ask about it myself I was so freaked out at the time and her issue was vomiting she didn't have diarrhea until a few days later.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dee Dee said:


> Thanks so much for this info!
> Sophie doesn't have much of an odor in her ears that I can tell. Do you remember if it was a really strong odor with Zoe?


When Kodi had a yeat infection as apuppy, there was an odor, but it wasn't strong. I remember, though, that it was distinctive enough that the vet knew before even looking that it was a yeast infection. With the infections Kodi gets now, they seem more bacterial, not yeast, and there is no smell.

And you're right, I'm a life-long horse person, and also have a friend who was barn manager for a major "standard" circus, so know the horse world from that perspective too. The Cavalia horses look sleek, fat, glossy and happy in their work.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

So you have been Karen? Have you also seen their Odysseo performance? I've been photographing for them for a few years now but I didn't get to see the original way back when which I hear was pretty dang spectacular I have their book and CD though. 

They are all super nice people to deal with. They even let me bring home a horse turd from my favorite stallion as a souvenier LOL Hallie got to go to all the shoots with me so I told them she asked for one.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

She must not have had e.coli since she recovered without medication. The important thing is that Sophie is all better!!!


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

I just smelled her ears and the odor isn't huge but I smell "ear"  The right ear is smellier than the left and that is the side she itches most. Don't know what yeasty ears smell like though. I'm just encouraged that after all this time we may finally get her some relief! 

I wish you lived out here Karen I could get you in with me on a photo shoot with Cavalia!


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## Zoe093014 (Jan 27, 2015)

Dee Dee said:


> Yes absolutely!  Loving every minute of it. She is like a Monty Python movie...
> 
> Do you remember if Zoe's ears were stinky enough that it was really noticable? Sophie doesn't have much odor maybe a little. I want there to be odor LOL!


I have sinus problems so I'm not very good at detecting odors but the techs recognized the yeast infection immediately by the odor. Sorry! We will be interested in how it goes tomorrow. Good luck with getting some answers!


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

krandall said:


> Oh, Sheri!!! If you've never seen Cavalia, keep an eye out for when they are performing in a city near you. It is the most breath-taking combination of horses, "circus" and acrobatics you can't even imagine!!! It is a night of pure magic!!!


I've never even heard of them, and doubt they've ever been to Idaho. I imagine maybe Seattle might have them, or Portland, but those are 12 hour drives away.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Dee Dee said:


> Have you also seen their Odysseo performance? I've been photographing for them for a few years now but I didn't get to see the original way back when which I hear was pretty dang spectacular I have their book and CD though.
> 
> They are all super nice people to deal with. They even let me bring home a horse turd from my favorite stallion as a souvenier LOL Hallie got to go to all the shoots with me so I told them she asked for one.


You've been photographing them for years?! That would be an incredible experience! Do you have more photos?

Did Hallie enjoy her horse turd? Haha!


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

DeeDee just wondering if you have the hair in Sophie's ear plucked. Maybe she doesn't have furry ears like my two. I haven't heard of Cavalia. The website looks like it would be a wonderful show.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Please post when you are able after Sophie's vet appointment tomorrow.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dee Dee said:


> So you have been Karen? Have you also seen their Odysseo performance? I've been photographing for them for a few years now but I didn't get to see the original way back when which I hear was pretty dang spectacular I have their book and CD though.
> 
> They are all super nice people to deal with. They even let me bring home a horse turd from my favorite stallion as a souvenier LOL Hallie got to go to all the shoots with me so I told them she asked for one.


Yes, I went a couple of summers ago, so I think it was Odysseo by then. I'd go again in a heart beat!!! Maybe, the next time they come to Boston, you can put a good word in for me, and We can get to meet some of them in person!  (I don't need the horse turd though, we've produced plenty of those right here... They are still part of the circle of life... fertilizing our flower gardens!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dee Dee said:


> I just smelled her ears and the odor isn't huge but I smell "ear"  The right ear is smellier than the left and that is the side she itches most. Don't know what yeasty ears smell like though. I'm just encouraged that after all this time we may finally get her some relief!
> 
> I wish you lived out here Karen I could get you in with me on a photo shoot with Cavalia!


Hey, I've got frequent flier miles, and I might very well be willing to use them up on something like that!  I've also got good friends and family I can always visit on a west coat visit, so don't tempt me!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dee Dee said:


> I just smelled her ears and the odor isn't huge but I smell "ear"  The right ear is smellier than the left and that is the side she itches most. Don't know what yeasty ears smell like though. I'm just encouraged that after all this time we may finally get her some relief!


Yeasty ears aren't terribly stinky or anything, it's just a distinctive odor. Once you know it, you can identify it for life. So if the "worse" ear smells different than the better ear, I'd be very suspicious it was a yeast infection.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Sheri said:


> I've never even heard of them, and doubt they've ever been to Idaho. I imagine maybe Seattle might have them, or Portland, but those are 12 hour drives away.


I'd drive a long way and stay over night to see them. They are FABULOUS!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Heather Glen said:


> DeeDee just wondering if you have the hair in Sophie's ear plucked. Maybe she doesn't have furry ears like my two. I haven't heard of Cavalia. The website looks like it would be a wonderful show.


You need to be careful with plucking ears... Some dogs do need it, if their ears are so hairy they get really clogged with hair, but in others it causes more problems than it solves. I plucked Kodi's when he was a puppy, because I thought that was what a good Havanese owner should do. As I learned more, I decided to leave them alone. He does better without them plucked. Neither of the girls have ever needed theirs plucked.

A friend of mine just had to have Panda's litter mate (half brother) treated for an ear infection CAUSED by plucking the ears, and making the ears bleed. (done by a groomer) So people have to be pretty sure the dog actually needs it, otherwise it's better to leave them alone.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

The groomer has always plucks the excess hair out of their ears. Scout and Truffles have never had any ear problems with plucking. Keeps their clean. Plucking the hair out and causing bleeding sounds absolutely terrible!!! 😟


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

krandall said:


> I'd drive a long way and stay over night to see them. They are FABULOUS!!!


OK, then, Karen. When Cavalia comes to Seattle, you and I can meet there and go with Dee Dee! lane:


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

I don't pluck Tucker's ear hair, either. How awful for a groomer to cause bleeding! That had to hurt!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Heather Glen said:


> The groomer has always plucks the excess hair out of their ears. Scout and Truffles have never had any ear problems with plucking. Keeps their clean. Plucking the hair out and causing bleeding sounds absolutely terrible!!! &#128543;


As I said, it depends on the dogs' ears. Many Havanese don't need their ears plucked at all. Others do. If it's working for you, I wouldn't worry about it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Sheri said:


> OK, then, Karen. When Cavalia comes to Seattle, you and I can meet there and go with Dee Dee! lane:


Yes!!!


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

Emmie's ears have never been plucked either.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Just thinking it might help with controlling moisture if there was a yeast problem.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Went to western vet today. Unfortunately Sophie's ears look squeaky clean.  So she feels it's probably allergies    but we're going to treat her with Synotic drops for a week just to see if it will help. They also plucked the hair from her ears. So I call back in a week and we'll go from there.

Tomorrow is holistic vet though hopefully she might have some added tricks up her sleeve.

She also still feels it was the food change that made Sophie so sick. But I am still going to send it off to be tested to a lab in Idaho. 

I also showed her the moose antler she said her rule of thumb is if you can't indent it with your fingernail, it's too hard for teeth. Which you can't on the moose antler. But the inside still seems softer to me so will ask holistic vet also. 

Sophie is still feeling great though so no complaints!! 

Oddly enough as we were leaving there was an elderly lady with a cute little dog sitting in the lobby. She asked me what kind of dog I told her turned out her little girl is a havanese also. Darling girl, just turned 8, had a pretty short cut beautiful markings. And was...shall we say....a bit "portly".  She and Sophie had a good visit, her name is "Sobe" so we had rhyming dogs. And wouldn't you know it, the reason she was at the vet is because of her allergies!


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## Zoe093014 (Jan 27, 2015)

Dee Dee said:


> Went to western vet today. Unfortunately Sophie's ears look squeaky clean.  So she feels it's probably allergies    but we're going to treat her with Synotic drops for a week just to see if it will help. They also plucked the hair from her ears. So I call back in a week and we'll go from there.
> 
> Tomorrow is holistic vet though hopefully she might have some added tricks up her sleeve.
> 
> ...


Wow, Dee Dee! That's really surprising, about the food change being the culprit, that is. But you can't argue with a vet. I switch Zoe from turkey to chicken to beef, sometimes pork, all the time with no problem and she has a liver shunt. We don't use dog food though. She is on a human grade home cooked diet so I don't know if that makes a difference but she is playful and silly like Sopie, finishes her food, poops regularly with good poops.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Zoe093014 said:


> But you can't argue with a vet.


Well, :nono: I don't "argue" with the vet, but we certainly have differences in opinion since vets don't get nutritional education--and I do what is best for Tucker concerning diet. Haha! I live in a farm-dog community and am somewhat of an oddity. :bounce:


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Dee Dee, I was really hoping, along with others, that this was some weird ear thing that would be an easy and permanent fix. It will be so good to hear what you holistic vet has to say.

About the Moose antler, though, if you soak it in boiling water for 15-20 minutes you CAN scratch the inside away with just your finger nail. His teeth are cleaner after using these, even though it isn't often that he does.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

> Wow, Dee Dee! That's really surprising, about the food change being the culprit, that is. But you can't argue with a vet. I switch Zoe from turkey to chicken to beef, sometimes pork, all the time with no problem and she has a liver shunt. We don't use dog food though. She is on a human grade home cooked diet so I don't know if that makes a difference but she is playful and silly like Sopie, finishes her food, poops regularly with good poops.


That is good to know about Zoe not having problems with a food change, I still have my doubts it was just that that made Sophie so sick. I home cooked for Sophie until she was old enough to have raw, now that she got sick I'll be home cooking again. Holistic vet will be telling me today what she wants her on now that she's had issues. Zoey sounds like such a sweetheart!!

LOL Sheri you are in the right place here we're all oddities!  The vet as is often the case is just making her best guess at it being food change since there is no proof of anything so at least testing the food will rule it in or out. I am still holding out hope and praying that her itchies are an ear thing and not allergies she also said she wouldn't jump on the allergy band wagon yet (since she knew how much I wanted it to not be allergies). I would suspect allergies more myself if not for the fact that her breeder has never had an allergy or itchy dog ever.....at least that he knows of and I'm sure he keeps tabs on the majority. That's over 100 dogs, how could I get the only one? So am going to look deeper for a cause before accepting it's actual allergies.

What I like about our western vet is she has educated herself on nutrition, she even did a fair amount of research on Sophie's issues before our appointment. It really is strange they don't teach nutrition in vet school!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

" It really is strange they don't teach nutrition in vet school!" .... because it is such a huge field of study and would add more years of study onto an already long time of study. This is why they should not be selling dog food. , because most of them do not know what the ingredients of their dog foods they sell contain. more on this Ignored Veterinary Medical Ethics ? Truth about Pet Food


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Good point Dave!
They should at least teach that there is a lot about nutrition they aren't going to teach so they learn to not recommend food to owners they don't know that much about. 
(that was confusing even to me)


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

Dee Dee: How did the appt with Dr. Donna go today? Any insight into what's causing Sophie to scratch her ears?


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## boomana (Jul 9, 2015)

Hope they can find an answer soon. On a related note, my co-worker has Watson's brother, Quincy (formerly Sherlock) from the same litter, Watson's sister sometimes comes to daycare, and the breeder, with whom I'm in contact still, kept the last little boy, Rocky. Quincy always seems to be getting yeast infections and has food allergies, where none of the others do. Neither of the parents have problems. No one seems to know why, including the vets.



Sheri said:


> About the Moose antler, though, if you soak it in boiling water for 15-20 minutes you CAN scratch the inside away with just your finger nail. His teeth are cleaner after using these, even though it isn't often that he does.


In an old thread on this forum, I read about soaking them overnight in beef or chicken broth. It was a big hit in my house.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dee Dee said:


> Good point Dave!
> They should at least teach that there is a lot about nutrition they aren't going to teach so they learn to not recommend food to owners they don't know that much about.
> (that was confusing even to me)


I have several good friends who are vets. They, AND my holistic vet are painfully aware of how little they were taught about nutrition in school, even though they do understand why. (As they are quick to remind people, they are in school for the same length of time as a human doctor, who needs to learn only about one species. THEY have to learn about at least a dozen, even if they aren't going into exotics. There simply isn't time.

One of my vet friends was a professor of pre-vet and vet tech for many years. One of the things she insisted on for her large animal students (she is a large animal vet, wich a strong interest in animal nutrition) was that they "deconstruct" a commercial feed based on ingredients on the bag and other info they obtained directly from the manufacturer. The students were assigned different brands. Then they had to take that info, and based on the known nutritional needs of horses, fill in to make sure the average 1000 lb horse would be getting a balanced diet. Then the class got together to share results across brands.

It was quite an eye opener for the students. Her goal was not to teach exactly what nutritional needs were, nor about specific commercial foods, but to teach them how to FIND the information and work out whether a diet was adequate for an animal. If you can do it for one (well known, domestic) species, you can do it for them all. But few vet students have a teacher like her.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Hi Dede, Good to hear that Sophie's ears seem to be better and that the vet did think that pulling the hair from the ear was appropriate. Today, was my dogs grooming day and I mentioned to my groomer, Deborah Kent, Kent's Kanines, kentskanines.com
about your dog's persistent ear scratching. I invited her to say a few words that might be helpful. I am also including two photos of Truffles after her spa day.

Debbie here: In my 28 years of grooming I do find that removing the hair from ears is quite helpful in allowing air to circulate inside the ear canal, especially for long dropped eared dogs with long hair i.e.: Havanese, Poodle, Cocker Spaniel, Maltese etc. What is most important is technique. Sometimes hemostats are used and this can be very assaultive. Pinching can occur by accident which of course would be harmful. Using a little ear powder to give grip to the hair and gently and briskly plucking the ear hair in small amounts with your finger tips is really the best way. Doing it in stages might be helpful instead of removing all at once. This would help with irritation. Once removing the hair is completed, using an ear cleaner on a cotton ball to sanitize and close the pores is a good idea; do not pour the solution directly into the ear. The goal is to clear the ear of hair and keep it dry.

Not sure if you have ever heard of Long Acting Ear Gel. It is ear medicine that is administered by the vet that is anti-fungal and an anti-bacterial. It is a one time dose and lasts for 2 weeks. The vet cleans the ears deeply and prepares them to receive this medication deep inside the canal. Sometimes, an anti-inflammatory for a few days in combination with direct ear treatment helps deflame the ear and reduce swelling so the ears can begin to heal. Hope this info is helpful.

Yes, sometimes certain proteins in meat , beef, chicken, lamb etc. can cause problems. Testing for food allergies as well as environmental sensitivities is a good idea to rule out these issues for the persistent scratching.


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## boomana (Jul 9, 2015)

Love beautiful Truffles!!!!!


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Truffles is beautiful.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

DeeDee finally got a pic with the pink pillow. 😊 Truffles is a tomboy and pretty much destroyed it the first day when I found it in the backyard!


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

> Quincy always seems to be getting yeast infections and has food allergies, where none of the others do. Neither of the parents have problems. No one seems to know why, including the vets.


Poor little Quincy!  Just luck of the draw sometimes it seems!

That's very interesting Karen! And it really is a shame they cant' fit nutrition in, it's a crucial component to the dogs health. I'm grateful our vet has been educating herself on nutrition. I told her I did the Nutriscan test with Sophie and she did some research and said there are no independant studies on it to prove how accurate it is. Sophie's issues may not be food, or at least not a large part food, but switching her to the recommended foods didn't help her itchies at all. (neither did anything else). Again not that it doesn't work but it would be nice if there were independant studies to back it up.

Truffles!!!!!!!!! OMGosh Heather. She is seriously one gorgeous pup! I just love her! Her coat looks like it is similar in texture to Emmie's. So jealous of you guys!  And her ponytails omgosh too cute for words! Sophie has never looked this well groomed even fresh out from under the dryer!

LOL have to laugh at the pink pillow ending up in the back yard, I have a hard time picturing that perfectly groomed princess getting dirty!


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Oh almost forgot to give the Sophie report.

Holistic vet feels it probably is allergy driven. She did a NAET treatment for pollen and gave me a new homemade diet recipe tailored to the itchies and the tummy stuff. She also gave us a different ear drop (although I will finish out the ear drops the western vet gave us first so we don't get mixed results) and a probiotic that she makes herself that is refrigerated. (Hallie was on that also really helped her). Also a supplement for itchies that she also makes (grows her own herbs and also has a permit to pick them in the mountains here at a certain time of the year) that is in powder form the only problem is it's super bitter and she needs 1/4 tsp a day. So that will be my challenge, to disquise it well enough! 

Sophie has another 2 days of antibiotics left, ear drops, new diet, supplements and herbs. And she had the hair pulled from her ears.
Haven't started diet or supplements and herbs yet (have to go buy the ingedients for diet) but I am just realizing here this evening...

SHE HAS BARELY SCRATCHED TODAY!!! 

Did I say that out loud? Eeee!

I think I"ve seen her scratch at her head maybe 2-3 times today and it was brief! This is the longest stretch of time I have seen her since 5 months old without scratching!! 

Holistic vet did warn me that the antibiotics may help and then get worse after she's off but I'll take it! LOVE not having to watch her be miserable scratching yeah!!


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Great to hear Sophie is feeling much better! I was waiting to take a picture of Truffles with the pink pillow for you DeeDee. Scout, Truffles and the pink pillow were looking a little rough this week! Thankfully Debbie was able to fix two of them! 😊


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## PaulineMi (Feb 5, 2016)

Oh goodness!!! Truffles looks so pretty. What a beautiful grooming job. And the picture of her resting on the pillow is darling. One would never imagine she was deviously planning its demise. Lol

Dee Dee...wonderful news about Sophie barely scratching. Such a relief for both of you.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dee Dee said:


> Poor little Quincy!  Just luck of the draw sometimes it seems!
> 
> That's very interesting Karen! And it really is a shame they cant' fit nutrition in, it's a crucial component to the dogs health. I'm grateful our vet has been educating herself on nutrition. I told her I did the Nutriscan test with Sophie and she did some research and said there are no independant studies on it to prove how accurate it is. Sophie's issues may not be food, or at least not a large part food, but switching her to the recommended foods didn't help her itchies at all. (neither did anything else). Again not that it doesn't work but it would be nice if there were independant studies to back it up.


Yes, but the problem is that Dr. Dodds and her work aren't universally loved in the mainstream veterinary world, so they don't have any particular interest in giving her street cred by DOING those studies.

My wonderful holistic vet happens to have worked with Dr. Dodds while she was developing Nutriscan and also during some of her thyroid work. She is the one who suggested it to me. The results have made a HUGE difference in Kodi's life. However, and allergic animal is likely to have more than one allergy, and they tend to change over time.

Keeping Kodi away from beef, fish and dairy has helped a LOT, but, depending on the time of year, he still gets severely itchy at times. But not as bad or not as long as he did before we limited his diet. It's a matter of trigger stacking. I wish we could completely isolate him from everything he's allergic to, but since much of it seems to be environmental (something DEFINITELY about wet grass, though we're not sure what) there's just no way. (short of sending him to live in the desert, I guess!!!  )


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dee Dee said:


> Holistic vet did warn me that the antibiotics may help and then get worse after she's off but I'll take it!


Yes, there is a certain class of antibiotics that also act as anti-inflammatories. (Doxy is one, I think?) they are sometimes used in people with Rheumatoid arthritis when the first and second line treatments don't work or aren't tolerated.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

And that is why I hate allergies SO much.  They tend to get worse as the dog ages also. There are many worse things than allergies but after what I went thru with Hallie I told the breeder my #1 hope is to not have another allergy dog it's such a miserable thing. I believe him when he say she's not had one allergy dog (that he knows of) in over 100 puppies. It really would be my luck poor little Sophie gets stuck with it. My grand plan was to pay more for a dog that was health tested this time and it would pay off in the long run with less vet bills. 
Hahaha. 

It really is a shame Dr Dodd's work isn't more accepted in the vet community. There are a lot of success stories and testimonies out there. You would think that would make it worth their attention. I'm glad Kodi was helped by it! I hope Sophie will be eventually also. Or with the NAET or...something! When Kodi has a reaction to grass what part of his body does he scratch? You said it was around his bum with the beef...


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Dee Dee... could it be that there is something in your home that could be a triggering allergen for dogs, since your Hallie had them too? Have you always lived in that same house with both dogs? Maybe it is formaldehyde or something in carpeting? Just thinking here...

I know carpeting can be a big trigger with children and allergies.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Had thought of that too but Hallie came with allergies so if it's something in the house, it wouldn't have been the cause of Hallie's. I've had my house tested for mold and it was fine. I do have carpet. I suppose that could be a possibilty! But I hope not I hate hardwood floors for dogs and can't afford to redo floors anyway. I am getting it steam cleaned soon (hot water only). Breeder offered to take her for a while to see if the itchies cleared up. Very nice of him! But I don't think I could be away from my girl for that long.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Dee Dee said:


> Breeder offered to take her for a while to see if the itchies cleared up. Very nice of him! But I don't think I could be away from my girl for that long.


You should ask him if their guest room is ready for you, too! 

(But, it is something to consider...)


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

> You should ask him if their guest room is ready for you, too!


LOL I told him I could do it if he didn't mind my face peeking through the window to stare at her for 2 weeks.


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## Zoe093014 (Jan 27, 2015)

Just catching up and noticing these posts...
Dee Dee, so happy you are getting some answers about the scratching. Did they mention the reason for her being so sick after the food change?
And Truffles is SO beautiful!


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## Donnita (Mar 24, 2016)

I'm so sorry that your little girl and you are suffering with this so much. I had a senior Pom that I rescued from the shelter in 2004. She was my heart dog. When I brought her home from the shelter she was missing much of her fur and had little sores. She would scratch herself nonstop. I tried many treatments both through my research and vet visits but nothing worked until I started giving her a weekly bath with Malaseb Medicated Shampoo. I would bath her once with a regular shampoo and for the second soap up I would use the Malaseb. I would then put her body in a plastic bag while the shampoo was still on her and wrap her in a towel. I would hold her for 10 minutes to allow the shampoo's medication to work its magic and then rinse her off. I would then use an oatmeal conditioner on her. This was the only treatment method that got her skin under control. But I had to keep up with the weekly bathing for the whole 8 years she was with me. In the beginning I bathed her a couple of times a week. I posted below photos of before and after shampoo treatment therapy I used. The 10 minute set time was made much more pleasant by the plastic bag and towel wrap. It was just a nice sitting time together. Malaseb is available in different sizes and is available at many pet supply sources.

Malaseb at Amazon


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Donnita, you are a good doggie mom.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Donnita your little pom was a very pretty girl. Lucky girl to have found a mom who loved her so much!


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## Donnita (Mar 24, 2016)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> Donnita, you are a good doggie mom.


Thanks Jackie! I was just so happy to find a method to give my girl some relief.



Heather Glen said:


> Donnita your little pom was a very pretty girl. Lucky girl to have found a mom who loved her so much!


Thanks Heather Glen... I always said I was the lucky one. She taught me so many things in the time I had her with me. I loved her deeply and would have done anything for her. The vet estimated her to be 12-14 when I brought her home. She lived for just shy of 8 more years. What a gift she was to me.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

> Dee Dee, so happy you are getting some answers about the scratching. Did they mention the reason for her being so sick after the food change?


Still no answers on the food change and darn it I don't think her itches were improved after all. I think she was so tired from the 6 hour drive to vet and back the day before she was too tired to scratch. Because she's been back at it full force since the following day.  So frustrating.

Donnita that is an amazing story about your precious little pom. What a difference between the photos of her! She was adorable! Bless you for taking such good care of her. And thank you for the link I will try that! I have tried about everything else with no change so am open to anything! Thank you!


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## PaulineMi (Feb 5, 2016)

I'm so sorry to hear that things haven't improved for you and Sophie.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Thanks Pauline I am so frustrated and disappointed with this not to mention exhausted and broke  Poor baby girl...not only for having to be so itchy but also for all of the vet visits she's been having to endure.


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## Zoe093014 (Jan 27, 2015)

Donnita said:


> I'm so sorry that your little girl and you are suffering with this so much. I had a senior Pom that I rescued from the shelter in 2004. She was my heart dog. When I brought her home from the shelter she was missing much of her fur and had little sores. She would scratch herself nonstop. I tried many treatments both through my research and vet visits but nothing worked until I started giving her a weekly bath with Malaseb Medicated Shampoo. I would bath her once with a regular shampoo and for the second soap up I would use the Malaseb. I would then put her body in a plastic bag while the shampoo was still on her and wrap her in a towel. I would hold her for 10 minutes to allow the shampoo's medication to work its magic and then rinse her off. I would then use an oatmeal conditioner on her. This was the only treatment method that got her skin under control. But I had to keep up with the weekly bathing for the whole 8 years she was with me. In the beginning I bathed her a couple of times a week. I posted below photos of before and after shampoo treatment therapy I used. The 10 minute set time was made much more pleasant by the plastic bag and towel wrap. It was just a nice sitting time together. Malaseb is available in different sizes and is available at many pet supply sources.
> 
> Malaseb at Amazon


Just an FYI, Malaseb was prescribed for a skin condition last summer for my miniature horse. That along with panolog ointment cleared her condition in a couple of weeks. Same thing ... had to shampoo and leave it on for 10 min., then rinse it off.

Dee Dee, 
Have you noticed any improvement with the home made diet? I am doing homemade, cooked, fresh with Zoe (following book by Dr. Karen Becker) and she seems to be doing well on it.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

I was reading up on the Malaseb and it sounds like it's just for bacteria, yeast type stuff? Sophie doesn't have that seems to be just allergies and has not (yet) made any sores etc. 

No improvement on diet either.  I was doing home cooked, then raw, now back to home cooked. Tailored for her current issues, zero change. If anything I see the itchiness spreading to other parts of her body now. argh.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

My friends Westie's has a lot of food and environmental allergies. He has been tested and goes to the dermatologist regularly. The only food he can eat is rabbit. The rabbit has controlled his itching so maybe that might work. He has been on that diet for several years now. I know she uses a special shampoo too.


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## Zoe093014 (Jan 27, 2015)

Oh no! I am so sorry to hear that she is still scratching. :frown2: Poor thing. Have you tried Springtime Products for dogs? I don't have first hand experience but it's worth a look.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Oh, no! Sophie is starting to scratch places other than her ears?!?!


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