# Acceptable Advertizing Venues



## Leah (Jan 12, 2010)

What are the acceptable advertizing venues that a reputable breeder would use to advertise puppies for sale? 

Thank you in advance for your kind responses.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

IMO word of mouth, their website, the breed parent club, local breed club.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Did you forget you already started this thread?

http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=11054


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

My own web site and the parent club (Havanese Club of America) after meeting their qualifications.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Havanese Club of America has a breeder referral list. You local havanese club also has a referral list. To tell you the truth, a good breeder really doesn't need to advertise. They have a waiting list sometimes a mile long, just from past pup referrals etc. I think all the other cute puppy websites are mainly for backyard and puppymills

I think we all responded the same way the last time you asked this question. I feel like you are looking for a certain answer and not getting it. Is that why you are asking again? Do you have a liter of pups that you're having a hard time getting rid of? I'm just starting to think this. sorry if I'm wrong.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Been there, done that.


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## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

Are we not wearing this subject out?:amen:


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## Leah (Jan 12, 2010)

lfung5 said:


> Havanese Club of America has a breeder referral list. You local havanese club also has a referral list. To tell you the truth, a good breeder really doesn't need to advertise. They have a waiting list sometimes a mile long, just from past pup referrals etc. I think all the other cute puppy websites are mainly for backyard and puppymills
> 
> I think we all responded the same way the last time you asked this question. I feel like you are looking for a certain answer and not getting it. Is that why you are asking again? Do you have a liter of pups that you're having a hard time getting rid of? I'm just starting to think this. sorry if I'm wrong.


I totally disagree with you if I may. I've been out of dog breeding for 18 years, but I don't think it is as black and white as you make it sound. I am saddened to think that the majority of those selling puppies are unscrupulous. I'm just not a "glass half empty" type person and hate to make that assumtion about people I don't know.

No, I don't have a litter of puppies I'm trying to sell. Several months ago, I was looking to buy a couple puppies. When I bought my Havanese puppies, I quickly found a woman who had a litter or two of puppies each year. By going to her home, talking to her, etc., etc. I felt very confident that she is very reputable. In the last week, someone from this forum has seen fit to demonize her simply for a website where she advertised her puppies. I don't understand this kind of thinking. One of those terrible websites is where I found her (The Dallas Morning News). I did not have the network resources available to me when I was looking for my Havanese puppies as I did when I was looking for my Bichon.

In the case of the Bichon, I went the route suggested by Amanda in the second post. I was also looking for much more in a puppy.

Also, I would truly like to discuss this topic civilly. Many times on this forum, I have explained my background in dogs. My mother show and bred Shetland Sheepdogs most of her adult life. This is nothing new to me. Possibly, I have a different perspective than many of you because of the changes that have occurred with the AKC, etc. over the 10-15 years.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I too have grown up in the world of purebreds. Big deal. My first childhood photos show me with our show dogs and litters of pups. Things change. Showing has changed. Breeding has changed. Health testing and genetics have become more advanced in the last 18-35 years. If you want to learn, then stick to the present and quit going backwards. It just makes you look hard-headed. 

By the way, that's not attitude. That's just me trying to be helpful.


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

ama0722 said:


> IMO word of mouth, their website, the breed parent club, local breed club.


You hit the nail on the head!



Leah said:


> Many times on this forum, I have explained my background in dogs. My mother show and bred Shetland Sheepdogs most of her adult life. This is nothing new to me. Possibly, I have a different perspective than many of you because of the changes that have occurred with the AKC, etc. over the 10-15 years.


Leah, you keep telling us how your mother bred Shetland Sheepdogs most of her adult life and you have also talked about how different things are now. You do have a different perspective. You have the perspective of things what? 20 years ago? Then you ask opinions about how things are done NOW and you argue with the answers you get.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Leah said:


> Several months ago, I was looking to buy a couple puppies. When I bought my Havanese puppies, I quickly found a woman who had a litter or two of puppies each year. By going to her home, talking to her, etc., etc. I felt very confident that she is very reputable. In the last week, someone from this forum has seen fit to demonize her simply for a website where she advertised her puppies.


Leah, what makes a breeder reputable to you? This is where the difference of opinion likely occurs.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Havtahava said:


> I too have grown up in the world of purebreds. Big deal. My first childhood photos show me with our show dogs and litters of pups. Things change. Showing has changed. Breeding has changed. Health testing and genetics have become more advanced in the last 18-35 years. If you want to learn, then stick to the present and quit going backwards. It just makes you look hard-headed.
> 
> By the way, that's not attitude. That's just me trying to be helpful.


I couldn't have said it any better LOL.

I guess these are the same answers as before. I don't think you will get anything different by asking again. Kimberly is right and times have changed. Things are more sophisticated now. I don't think there were as many puppymills back then either. Unfortunately, I do believe there are just a handful of great breeders out there compared to bad breeders. Dogs have become part of the family and greedy people are trying to make money on that. A lot of the cheesy websites and advertising of puppies in the paper are puppymill brokers and puppymills. Trust me, I live in a puppymill state and have gone to some of the facilities posted on websites and in the paper. Sadly, they were ALL puppymills.

Great website: "Last Chance For Animals"


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

:deadhorse:


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## newhavaneselover (Nov 25, 2009)

Why do people come in here just to cause problems? Every trend that she has either started or typed in she is trying to pick a fight. Leah... you need to get a life, grow up. We are all adults in here who just like to talk, share stories and get REAL questions answered. As well as not bitching if we don't like the answer. If you don't want the truth of what people think, don't ask.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

op2:


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

The best place, in my opinion is word of mouth followed by a breeder's own web site listing the sire, dam, health testing, etc. A person who breeds dogs to the standard and does all the necessary health testing to keep from perpetuating problems doesn't necessarily have to show in conformation. There are great dogs in agility, obedience, etc. but a good breeder will always strive to breed to the standard AND do health testing AND stand behind their dogs.


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## alicelc (Feb 6, 2010)

lfung5 said:


> I couldn't have said it any better LOL.
> 
> I guess these are the same answers as before. I don't think you will get anything different by asking again. Kimberly is right and times have changed. Things are more sophisticated now. I don't think there were as many puppymills back then either. Unfortunately, I do believe there are just a handful of great breeders out there compared to bad breeders. Dogs have become part of the family and greedy people are trying to make money on that. A lot of the cheesy websites and advertising of puppies in the paper are puppymill brokers and puppymills. Trust me, I live in a puppymill state and have gone to some of the facilities posted on websites and in the paper. Sadly, they were ALL puppymills.
> 
> Great website: "Last Chance For Animals"


I was unaware that such a thing existed (puppy mills). I didn't know that by purchasing a pet from a pet shop, I was supporting pet mills and backyard breeders.
I was almost fooled when I was looking at a miniature schnauzer. Then I found a reputable breeder who listed red flags to look out for.
I won't mention any names but this breeder was expecting at least 5 litters in one month...Is that right? It didn't feel right to me...

With word-of-mouth, breed clubs, I think tons of research is also necessary. The BYB mentioned earlier was listed on a website which also provided links to reputable breeders.
So research research research.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

alicelc, I agree. Even if a breed club lists a member, doesn't mean that member is a responsible breeder. It does, however, provide someone with a list of potential people to look into and work with in finding your puppy. Also, like you, I had no idea pet shop puppies had such a miserable background and that buying from these places meant supporting a business that continues to abuse, neglect and inhumanely kill dogs. I would walk into the shops and think that one day, I'd get one. There are SOME pet shops, in U.S. and in Canada, that only sell dogs/puppies from shelters, but they are rare and in my province they don't even exist.  I have spent many hours helping out after mill seizures, so I'm an avid fighter against pet stores, BYB and online sales of pups. 

Leah, it is a valid question, but it's been answered ad infinitum in previous threads/posts so I'm not sure exactly why you are asking again. The title of your thread is a good one, though, so with the answers already sent in, it may be a valid thread to check out for those new to the forum. 

The thing with "word of mouth" is that, in my case, I never ever would have heard of the Havanese, much less found a good breeder because they are very rare here. There are none in the pet shops (thank God!) and only 2 breeders, far from my city. It was only with months and months (1.5 yrs.) of research that I finally zoned in on a handful of breeds I liked and through a rescue source, found Ricky's breeder. I know there are Havs in or near Montreal, but believe me, they are few and far between! 

I actually joined a yahoo group and that is another source of information and/or contact with breeders. Many Havanese online group/email list, will have members that are either pet owners, show people, breeders, handlers, etc.. It is a good place to get names and from there, do the proper research. These lists, like this forum, help you ask the questions you need to ask for a healthy, happy puppy. I'm not saying you can trust everyone on there (or here!), but it's a good start. 

Hav groups/lists are how I knew to ask about health testing and soaping or I would never in a million years have though of it! lol People just don't know what or how to ask.

So......... as I ramble on and on........ "Acceptable Advertising Venues" are as mentioned above. I think the feeling here, among most of the members (definitely for me) is that if you have to ask how to sell your Havanese puppies, then you shouldn't even consider it!


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Like Marj has already touched, I disagree with a local breed club or even an all breed club being an avenue for advertising. In fact, I think it is a rare local breed club or all breed club that will even list breeders. These clubs are easier to join and not necessarily an indicator of anything except some involvement in local activity.

A parent club (e.g. HCA) is meant to be more difficult to join. Even then, if you see breeders listed with a breed parent club, you should always do your homework anyway. 

I am posting these opinions as a reference for anyone else that finds this thread when researching the forum. The OP has had information given to her multiple times.


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## Leah (Jan 12, 2010)

Havtahava said:


> I too have grown up in the world of purebreds. Big deal. My first childhood photos show me with our show dogs and litters of pups. Things change. Showing has changed. Breeding has changed. Health testing and genetics have become more advanced in the last 18-35 years. If you want to learn, then stick to the present and quit going backwards. It just makes you look hard-headed.
> 
> By the way, that's not attitude. That's just me trying to be helpful.


I also agree. Unfortunately, it has taken me too long to come to terms with the changes. I'll admit that I am hard headed in certain situations. Apparently, this is one of them.

I agree with those who say I must find a mentor, join a breed club, study and learn, etc. and I have started that with Bichons through networking. I feel that I have high standards and ethics, but I can't expect everybody else to know that about me without getting to know me.

I have additional questions about the prevalence of hip displaysia, etc. in this breed, but I will save that for another time and place. I am most surprised that hip displaysia would be a problem in dogs as small as Havanese, but poor breeding has done it's damage.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Leah said:


> I feel that I have high standards and ethics, but I can't expect everybody else to know that about me without getting to know me.


Exactly, Leah! 
Get involved with your local Bichon club and work closely with a few. If the Bichon folks are anything like the Havanese folks, the people who are truly involved with bettering the breed are a close-knit group and word does spread quickly (both negative and good). If you want to get involved with breeding, find a mentor so that you can learn the ins and out of the breed. It takes years, but fortunately the Bichon Frise appear to have much fewer variations within their breed than we do, so hopefully it will be easier to learn than the years of studying ours seems to take.


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## Leah (Jan 12, 2010)

ama0722 said:


> Leah, what makes a breeder reputable to you? This is where the difference of opinion likely occurs.


I'd prefer not to go into detail on this subject because it has been a big source of disagreement with too many people here. I will say that she had done the testing on the dogs, we discussed each in length. She had two brood bitches. The litter my girls came from will be their mother's last. Jamie had recently purchased a female which she plans to show. Female dogs in the same household tend to bring each other into season, therefore it is not uncommon to have two litters at a time. This was the case here. All the puppies and their mothers were in the house in a study off the living room. The puppies are very healthy and happy. I may have them tested after their second birthday just for the benefit of the naysayers here.

I'm really trying to be nice, but this is not something I have to prove to you.


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## Leah (Jan 12, 2010)

Havtahava said:


> Like Marj has already touched, I disagree with a local breed club or even an all breed club being an avenue for advertising. In fact, I think it is a rare local breed club or all breed club that will even list breeders. These clubs are easier to join and not necessarily an indicator of anything except some involvement in local activity.
> 
> A parent club (e.g. HCA) is meant to be more difficult to join. Even then, if you see breeders listed with a breed parent club, you should always do your homework anyway.
> 
> I am posting these opinions as a reference for anyone else that finds this thread when researching the forum. The OP has had information given to her multiple times.


The Bichon Frise Club of America refused to refer me to a breeder. I'm fortunate to know a well-know Sheltie breeder in Houston who referred me to a couple of Bichon breeders he knows. I've been thinking that the AKC Gazette would be a good source to find out who is showing, winning and might have puppies for sale. From there, you would still have to do your due diligence.

Kimberly, when you mentioned your website specifically, I was not able to find it in a Google or Yahoo search of Havanese or Havanese breeders. That is no reflection on you, but more the garbage that is on the Internet that one must sort through. I did find Katie's MopTop website, though.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

You can click on the link in my signature. It is a wee bit outdated, but there. 

What search terms did you use in Google? I'm the top several links I see when I enter my kennel name, my name or just my first name and the word Havanese.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Leah said:


> I'd prefer not to go into detail on this subject because it has been a big source of disagreement with too many people here.
> 
> I'm really trying to be nice, but this is not something I have to prove to you.


I wasn't asking you to prove anything to me. I was trying to let you know by what is considered "reputable" may change what is considered "acceptable advertising" as well. Where I would find a Havanese breeder is likely where breeders (who do all the health testing, register the health testing, follow the Havanese Club of America Guidelines, show their breeding stock, and try to advance the breed) advertise.


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## Leah (Jan 12, 2010)

Havtahava said:


> I am posting these opinions as a reference for anyone else that finds this thread when researching the forum. The OP has had information given to her multiple times.


In the past week, it has been difficult for me to see many of the constructive suggestions that were obstructed by so many derogatory comments. After a while my eyes glazed over from reading so many negative comments.


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## Alexa (Jun 17, 2007)

Leah,

I was going to refrain from commenting on any of the threads, but of course I can't keep my opinions to myself <g>

As you must have realized by now, many people on this forum are very emotionally and otherwise invested in protecting the highest possible standard when it comes to the Havanese breed. I do feel that discussions get a little overzealous at times, and even folks that have stumbled onto this site with less provocative questions have been frightened off by being bombarded by ultimately well meant, but harsh sounding advice.

So, what I am asking you is try to filter through all the comments that you feel are attacking, dismissive, mean spirited or whatever and really focus on the facts. Because those remain true no matter who delivers them.

I called around the area last year for a friend who was looking for a Lhasa Apso and every breeder I talked to was so elitist and really not very nice, that guess what....she ended up with a backyard breeder in the end!! So I can totally see why people would be put off by all the snobby talk etc. and go the easy route....BUT...my friends dog definitely has some issues and I bet she often wishes she had listened to the snobs no matter how irritating they were at the time.

The fact is that the chances or producing a truly healthy dog with a great temperament and closest to the traits of the standard IS by buying from a breeder that has all of those things in mind. It doesn't mean that even top breeders don't occasionally have a sick or deformed etc. puppy, but it doesn't happen very often. And if your dog from a top breeder develops problems, you should be able to rely on them working with you and having the best interest of every one of their dogs at heart. Not just make a quick sale and be done with that client.

I had no idea of all of the health tests etc. when I first started looking for my Havanese, I didn't even know that AKC referral sites exist etc. The local Club never got back to me when I asked for referrals. So what did I do...and what do most internet savy people do that are looking for a dog? Google and search for sites of local breeders.

So to answer your particular question....if you have a GREAT website, detailing everything about your breeding program, being open about answering any questions, because there is nothing to hide, it WILL be your best marketing tool. Educating people and then giving them the best possible dog for their money will help you not only sell your dogs, but make you feel proud as a breeder.
I personally don't have a problem with people advertising in various places, but if you have a killer site, all you need to do is advertise a link.

All the breeders I have met also recommend other like-minded breeders in their circle when they don't have any litters themselves. In order to get referrals from them, however, you need to make sure you have built a connection with them and that your standards are up to their standards.

When we have meetings for the local Havanese Club, lots of people come to visit and exchange ideas etc., another GREAT place for contacts. But you have to be willing to put time and effort into building these relationships.

So, while I am still not big on all the controversy etc. in the recent threads, please do take a step back and really think long and hard what sort of breeder YOU want to be, assuming this is the direction you want to go in.

Alexa


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

Good post, Alexa.


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## Leah (Jan 12, 2010)

Alexa, we have no disagreement. 

I feel that most of the people here are not going to be satisfied that I bought my puppies from a reputable breeder unless I bought it from them. It's as simple as that.

I lucked out when I bought my Havs. When I bought my Bichon, I had referrals from very close breeder friends, did my research, asked questions, toured their home, you name it. Unfortunately, I'm still an ignorant fool. Just take a poll of the people on this forum.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Leah said:


> I feel that most of the people here are not going to be satisfied that I bought my puppies from a reputable breeder unless I bought it from them. It's as simple as that.
> 
> I lucked out when I bought my Havs. When I bought my Bichon, I had referrals from very close breeder friends, did my research, asked questions, toured their home, you name it. Unfortunately, I'm still an ignorant fool. Just take a poll of the people on this forum.


Leah,
I think you are missing the point that so many have tried, once again, to give to you. We don't care who you bought your dogs from. Your question had NOTHING to do with you who you bought them from.


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## Leah (Jan 12, 2010)

Kathy said:


> Leah,
> I think you are missing the point that so many have tried, once again, to give to you. We don't care who you bought your dogs from. Your question had NOTHING to do with you who you bought them from.


You may not, but this seems to be a recurring issue for some.

I really don't know what you people want. I have more questions than when I joined this site, but I dare not ask them due to people like you.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Here we go again.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Leah said:


> I really don't know what you people want. I have more questions than when I joined this site, but I dare not ask them due to people like you.


Leah- I think the problem is when you don't hear what you want, then you act like this and accuse the forum. If you want people to say advertising online and in newspapers is where the good breeders are.... you aren't going to get it on this forum. :frusty:


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Leah said:


> Alexa, we have no disagreement.
> 
> *I feel that most of the people here are not going to be satisfied that I bought my puppies from a reputable breeder unless I bought it from them. It's as simple as that.*
> 
> I lucked out when I bought my Havs. When I bought my Bichon, I had referrals from very close breeder friends, did my research, asked questions, toured their home, you name it. Unfortunately, I'm still an ignorant fool. Just take a poll of the people on this forum.


 Well I would like to see you try and buy one from me, I have two males and will let you know when the miracle happens LOL

Leah you need to stop worrying about what others think of your breeder and move on. If you are completely happy with whom you got your havs from and have the support from them then I for one and happy for you. If you do plan on hitting the show ring you are going to need a stronger back bone and be able to not worry yourself on what others think so much.

Everyone has room to grow and learn and I really wish we could just get over this hump, we have some great breeders on this forum that take the time to help so many regardless where we all got our pups from. Take the time to listen, do your own research, add your questions and thoughts but stop making rude comment's if you do not like the answer. We are all allowed our own opinions like your self but as soon as you get an attitude you know everything you end up missing the bus and never get to where you originally hoped to go.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

She can't help herself guys. As stated by her, she is trying to be nice. She's just not a nice person by nature and we are wasting our time. I'm annoyed.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I've been on this forum for almost three years and never once in all that time did I get the feeling, or see evidence of any breeder on here trying to foist their puppies on us. Quite the contrary. They've been encouraging with their advice, excited to share their photos and wish us well when we added to our canine families. And probably paramount to them is their commitment to the babies they bring into the world. I'm sure they screen very carefully the homes they consider for their puppies.

Only once in my life did I have a litter to place and it was daunting. I wanted to look into the future to make sure those babies had a wonderful life with people who would be there for them through the good and the bad.

I don't think you've been here long enough to really understand where the breeders are coming from. It's all too easy to extrapolate from what you read (and I mean the editorial you, not you personally) and make two and two equal five. 

In the end, if you're happy with your breeder, little else matters. Enjoy your babies and don't miss all the wonderful moments as they grow from cute, inquiring little ones into the intelligent beings they become.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Leah has asked to be removed from the forum and she is banned. This thread will close. 
Thank you to everyone who tried to give her advice.


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