# Conflicting Advice on Raw vs. Kibble



## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

Me again. Sorry! I could use some experienced input, particularly from long time raw feeders.

I was planning on feeding raw, probably the Nature's Variety Medallions, since they are readily available nearby. I fed my Yorkie raw from the time she was 4 to about 14, at which point we had to start cooking her food because she couldn't seem to digest it. Her kidneys started to fail around that age, and I kept her going with subcutaneous fluids far too long. In retrospect, I know I was missing things with that homemade diet (didn't know about NV then, if it existed), and I was not giving her any raw bones. I don't think she got enough nutrients, particularly minerals, even though I was giving her supplements, oils and enzymes. She still never got cancer, diabetes, tumors, or any of the weird people diseases that a lot of dogs get, and was fairly energetic well into her latest years, but she did lose most of her teeth and had some bacterial infections in her mouth. That could be because despite dentals and brushing as best I could, she was not getting the bones. Actually, she already had bad teeth at 4 yrs. old, so I don't even know if she could have chewed them when we started her on raw at that age. I read one article on a dog that had bone fragments in its stomach from raw bone, so the bones still make me nervous, but it sounds like a lot of people do it. 

I want make sure with this dog that if I'm doing raw, I've got all the nutritional bases covered.

The breeder I think I'm getting my puppy from says she used to do raw, home made, etc., but she says she was having health problems crop up on that and she has switched to Purina Pro Plan, which works for her to keep her dogs healthy. She says she has a friend who feeds expensive, grain-free commercial foods, but her dogs are not as healthy, either. I don't know the nature of the health problems she's talking about, but I still can't get my head around the idea that kibble or canned is better than raw. I mean the right raw, properly handled and prepared in a balanced way that best simulates a well rounded, wild diet. I know that wild dogs and wolves don't eat grains unless they get it partially or pre-digested in the intestines of their prey. I know they eat organs and all the nasty bits I don't like on my kitchen counter, but I'm willing to do that for her, which is why I thought I'd go with the NV or similar, and add things occasionally like green tripe, kelp, hearts, cod liver oil, etc. 

Daniel, I know you do all raw. Have you, or do you know people who have done it for many years successfully with healthy, strong, disease-resistant dogs? I'm always baffled when I meet or hear about dogs who are living to 17 years old on kibble and are apparently healthy. It goes against common sense for me, and yet how do you explain that.... ? 

Does anyone know if the Nature's Variety is a complete, balanced diet? I think I would add some of the things mentioned above, anyway, but does that sound like the right approach?

Sorry this is so long. I'm one of those obsessive dog owners who feels terribly guilty when I mess up. Can you tell I don't have kids? lol! I'd be totally gray by now if I did.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

You are always going to get conflicting information on dog feeding, especially from breeders & pet owners. If you want some solid info, I'd recommend you talk to a canine nutritionist and you'll still get varying opinions even among them. 

I am a kibble feeder, but I commend you on considering a commercial product rather than making it yourself. I just went to one seminar where the speaker was saying that she would advocate home-cooked _*if*_ (and this was a big if) every person would stick to the original recipe that was created by the expert that evaluated/made it, but most of us get lazy with time and eventually eliminate this or substitute that, and the recipe changes with time leaving gaps in the nutritional needs of the dog. It is just human nature to tweak or skip things with time.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

I know 2 raw feeders who's dogs are around 7-10yrs old and their dogs are very healthy. Never had any problems. 

There's a wealth of information on the internet. Also if you go to the Tollden Farms website, they have a case study of a dog that was ill from a variety of factors and how raw feeding brought back his health. It documents the feeding over a year I believe.

You could also read Dr. Pitcairn's Guide to Natural Health for Cats and Dogs. He has 26yrs experience as a vet and is a big raw feeder advocate.

Bogart is 2.5yrs and Brando is 1.5yrs and neither have had any problems to date. Teeth are shiny white, coats are shiney, and health is great according to the vet.

Keep in mind that just because someone cooks for their dog doesn't mean the dog is getting a healthy diet. You have to ask what is being fed. Are you feeding appropriate meat and organs? Proper vegetables? Fruit? Most raw feeders are moving away from feeding fruit. Supplements?


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

2 of my guys eat the raw. My little princess Bella won't touch the stuff. The boys are still young, 3 & 2, but have not had any problems. I feed Primal, as they would not touch the NV. NV is more meat and Primal is, I think, about 30% organic veg., mixed in with muscle meat. I believe they changed their formula, because my guys were not keen on it for awhile. I just got a bag and the nugget looked a bit different. Now, they are eating it without any hesitation.


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

Hi Daniel, thanks very much for the book recommendations. I actually just got back from a grocery shopping trip and stopped into a pet boutique on the way where they sell natural home made organic dog treats, etc. I'm even more confused and frustrated because I talked to a woman there who does nutritional counseling for both people and pets, and she says she doesn't do raw or believe in it because it is too much protein which is hard on the kidneys, that in the wild dogs would dig up roots and tubers and eat plants also (really?), and that anyway due to years and years of breeding and exposure to all the chemicals, vaccinations and crap that we are all exposed to, they are already compromised and not like wild dogs anymore. She doesn't believe in any commercial food, it sounds like she feeds a primarily vegetarian, home cooked diet with herbs and supplements, and wild salmon. She feeds some tofu for protein, but I've read many reports that soy is pretty much toxic to both people and animals. She does do grains, but only certain ones, no wheat or corn. Also that you have to rotate proteins once a month. She wouldn't tell me much else without my signing up for a $95 consultation. 

I'm having a minor freakout because I want to get it right, but that part about too much protein does make me wonder if that's why my Yorkie's kidneys failed, and I think it may have started sooner than I realized. 

I have heard stories, also, of dogs improving health problems when switched to raw, but it's hard to know if that's mainly because they got off of processed food? 

I was really hoping to feed the NV medallions, since I thought that was a complete nutritional profile, for the most part. I'm feeling a little overwhelmed, a lot like I felt when I was trying to figure this out for my previous dog, it was a huge stressor and I know I don't have the time or energy to do really elaborate food preparation for my dog, I just need it to be easier than that, and yet I can't get my head around processed kibble. It doesn't make sense to me, but now I'm not sure about the raw, either. 

I will check out those books you recommended... all these questions are part of what has stopped me from getting the dog this past year, I wanted to feel prepared. I don't know, maybe I need more time for homework.


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

Hi Linda, do you get the Primal locally? I don't think I can buy it around here. Is it frozen? This is where I'd wonder if I could cut the NV with more vegetables to reduce the protein, but I'm assuming that would then throw off the balance. I wonder if there is an effective vitamin supplement that can plug the nutritional holes. I take vitamins, but I wonder sometimes how well I'm digesting and processing them, a lot of it seems to depend on companion nutrients, digestion, etc. Maybe NV for one meal, then the next meal is cooked including some grains and steamed veggies or something.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Petaluna, I am a little concerned about the "expert advice" you got from that woman at the store you went to. O.k., so I don't have a degree in canine nutrition, but I've spent many months and a gazillion hours perusing the internet, books, picking breeders', nutritionists' and dog owners' brains to get to a point where I think I know at least a little about the subject! I work part-time in a health food store for cats and dogs, so let's just say I'm exposed to this topic quite often. :biggrin1: Of course I don't pretend to know it all. That would be impossible and I learn every week which I think is great. 

What I did learn about ash content and high protein levels in kibble is that it USED to be that the ash level in this type of food was very high because companies included a lot of bone in the mix. That results in a high ash level which can cause kidney and/or liver issues. What reputable companies that make wholesome food you can trust NOW do, though, is not include so much bone, which greatly reduces the ash content so there is no fear of causing kidney/liver issues. The high-protein kibble will not cause those problems! If the dog ALREADY has those issues, then a high-protein kibble is not recommended, but they are completely safe for all other dogs. In fact, they are better for some dogs than lower protein diets.

So, you still get some people fearful of high protein, but there is no cause for it.

To understand what goes into dog food, and how to understand labels, this site is very informative and worth reading: http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=labelinfo101 *Label Information 101 - Interpreting Pet Food Labels*

I totally agree with you that raw is probably best for the vast majority of dogs. I'm not convinced soy protein is a good thing either. O.k., so dogs aren't exactly like the wild wolves, it's true. I do think, however, that their diets based on the wild dogs, can help them live long, healthy lives if we feed what is most natural for a dog.

Sure, we can all think of many dogs that lived 10 and 15 years and only ate Iams, or Purina or what have you, but that's like saying "My great-g'dad smoked 3 packs/day and lived 'til he was 95!" - which in my case is true! lol) Does that mean smoking is OKAY? My mom will sometimes say "Well, we fed you pablum in a bottle and you survived!" I mean, c'mom! :brick: NO one used seat belts 40 years ago, so does that mean it was smart?! lol If someone is going to argue about nutrition with you, then he/she should at least say things based on fact, statistics and well..... gut instinct, I think! Follow your gut, Petaluna!

I dont' have studies nearby that can back some of my arguments, and I know that some dogs just don't do well on raw. We have some Havs in this forum who either got sick on the raw or who were not flourishing on that type of diet. Fine. Find out what works best for you, your family and your dog and do the research to help back you up when some of your friends and relatives and vets start blasting you for doing something so horrid as feeding a chicken neck to your 10 lbs. Havanese!! ound:

Here are other sites to check out: http://leerburg.com/feedingarawdiet.htm

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.htm

http://www.professorshouse.com/pets/dogs/dispelling-the-myths-of-raw-feeding.aspx

I'm sure there are many cases of dogs living 15+ years on this diet.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Havtahava said:


> You are always going to get conflicting information on dog feeding, especially from breeders & pet owners. If you want some solid info, I'd recommend you talk to a canine nutritionist and you'll still get varying opinions even among them.
> 
> I am a kibble feeder, but I commend you on considering a commercial product rather than making it yourself. I just went to one seminar where the speaker was saying that she would advocate home-cooked _*if*_ (and this was a big if) every person would stick to the original recipe that was created by the expert that evaluated/made it, but most of us get lazy with time and eventually eliminate this or substitute that, and the recipe changes with time leaving gaps in the nutritional needs of the dog. It is just human nature to tweak or skip things with time.


I totally agree with what Kimberly said, about what some people do when they feed a homecooked diet. There is nothing wrong with feeding "people" food, but it has to be part of a balanced diet and you need to supplement with vitamins, egg shells, bone, oils, plants, etc... for it to be of benefit to the dog. It requires some studying and consistent measuring.

I have nothing against kibble and feed it to my two, but I am trying to get them to have a mostly raw diet, in addition to feeding kibble for convenience sake. So far, they've had raw meaty bones 4 times in 3 weeks and already some of their tartar is gone and their poop is drier and fewer.


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

Hi Marj, thank you so much for your comments, it makes so much sense what you are saying, and I thought the same thing about her, but she claims she's distilled her techniques from many books and published papers on canine nutrition and alternative health. What you mentioned about the ash in the kibble from bone... is it a problem that the NV has bones, and then feeding them raw meaty bones, as well? Or does the ash only occur with cooking the bone? 

I really have no idea why my yorkie's kidneys failed. I put her on raw when she was about 4. She didn't develop obvious problems until late in life, but in retrospect I wonder if it started sooner. I was not giving her any bone at all, just raw meat and veggies, with some oils and supplements, but I DID give her well cooked oatmeal and rice, which I know is not part of a raw diet, though at the time I thought it was appropriate - I might have been very wrong about that. So she did have plenty of raw protein. I also thought the bone was for calcium, and the hunched back she developed by the time she was 9 or 10 could have been from bone loss or actually, what I've read, could indicate kidney pain, though her tests didn't show a problem. She had some mildly elevated numbers on liver testing, as I recall, by the time she was 10 or 11.

Basically, I have this burning need to know exactly what I'm going to do to get this dog off to a healthy start and stay on a healthy path, and I'm all off kilter now because I realize I haven't got all my ducks in a row, and I'm afraid to commit before that cause dogs are like people to me, and I feel responsible for giving them the best life and best health that I can. I spent so much money and had so much stress over my last dog, tremendous guilt for not getting it right with her and all the mistakes I made. Right now it feels like "here I go again...."

Wise words, though, thank you so much. I have a lot to think about, including whether I'm too crazy to be a good dog mom right now.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

I also have to say I'm a little concerned about this "expert advice" you got. Some of the stuff she says doesn't make sense. Keep in mind the issue with high protein in the past was the source of the protein not the amount. Here's a white paper on it which is a very good read. http://www.championpetfoods.com/orijen/documents/ORIJEN_White_paper.pdf

Also keep in mind that if you feed a raw chicken breast, it's only about 26% protein and lots of moisture. But it's protein that is easily digestable. As to the digging up of roots, I've never heard that. But a small amount of botanicals are good for dogs and are preferred over fruit. Typically a dog would get it from it's prey's stomach though.

Obviously most of the food we feed our pets is full of chemicals, raw or kibble. But at least with raw you can choose to buy organic chicken or beef, but it will be costly. To be honest with you, there's no need to freakout. If you feed a very good kibble and maybe supplement it, a balanced home cooked meal, or raw, I'm sure you are doing well by your Hav. We all try to do the best we can with the amount of information we have as well as the size of our wallet and our lifestyle.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Petaluna. I read a book recently by Anne N. Martin. She is a world authority on commercial pet foods. She has been studying it and the companies behind them since 1990. She lists some that are good and most are not. She believes in home cooked "human food" and her pets have outlived the average longevity statistics by years. The only raw one she likes is by The Honest Kitchen. They use a unique dehydrating process. The book is called Food Pets Die For. edition 3. It's worth the money. All of her cats lived into their twenties. And her Newfoundland ,lived to 14. Newfies usually only live to 7-8 years on average. The Honest Kitchen says "We are the only pet food manufacturer in the U.S. to receive a statement of 'no objection' from the FDA to use the term 'human grade' on our labels," "We are the only pet food manufacturer in the U.S. to receive a statement of 'no objection' from the FDA to use the term 'human grade' on our labels,"


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Aslo regarding calcium. If you feed a dog raw meat there's not much calcium in it but there is phosphorous. A proper diet should have a 2:1 calcium to phosphorous mix. Too much phosphorous is not good for a dog. Just feeding raw meat would give a dog too much phosphorous without the calcium hence you either need to feed ground meat with bone in, or give chicken necks to help balance things out. You could also mix in bone meal. I think NV medallions uses Bone Meal as do most prepackaged raw foods.

Also wanted to add that Dr Pitcairn actually is in favour of using certain grains. He believes that it's good replacement for some of the raw meat. Cuts down on contaminents as well as reducing the amount of protein. I've been reading it and still not sure what to make of it.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

DanielBMe said:


> I also have to say I'm a little concerned about this "expert advice" you got. Some of the stuff she says doesn't make sense. Keep in mind the issue with high protein in the past was the source of the protein not the amount. Here's a white paper on it which is a very good read. http://www.championpetfoods.com/orijen/documents/ORIJEN_White_paper.pdf
> 
> Also keep in mind that if you feed a raw chicken breast, it's only about 26% protein and lots of moisture. But it's protein that is easily digestable. As to the digging up of roots, I've never heard that. But a small amount of botanicals are good for dogs and are preferred over fruit. Typically a dog would get it from it's prey's stomach though.
> 
> Obviously most of the food we feed our pets is full of chemicals, raw or kibble. But at least with raw you can choose to buy organic chicken or beef, but it will be costly. * To be honest with you, there's no need to freakout. If you feed a very good kibble and maybe supplement it, a balanced home cooked meal, or raw, I'm sure you are doing well by your Hav. We all try to do the best we can with the amount of information we have as well as the size of our wallet and our lifestyle.*


Bold mine.

I completely, 100% agree with this.

I don't mean this post in a bad way AT ALL, so please don't take it badly, but I do think that you are freaking out a lot over this dog. It's totally fine to want to do best by your dog and I'm sure you WILL looking at your well-thought out and well-meaning posts. However, it seems like you're second-guessing yourself a whole lot and just freaking out a bit too much. You won't kill your dog and he/she will be just fine, I'm sure! You did your research, you have a lot of information at your fingertips, so just take a step back and take a deep breath. You will be fine. Your dog will be fine. Just keep repeating that to yourself and try to start believing it! eace:


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Also want to add that just feeeding your dog a proper diet is only half the fight. Exercise is the other half. Far to many dogs get no activity at all. My guys get a lot of excercise. Not only playing with each other but also every day I take them to the off leash park or a very good walk. They get 3 outings a day, 365 days a year.


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

Thanks, Daniel. Freakouts and guilt are my specialty, unfortunately! I have this thing where I feel like if I make a sentient being come home with me, one who didn't have a choice on who it comes to live with, I then have the enormous responsibility of giving it the best possible life, since all the choices on that dog's quality of life, health, etc. are up to me, and maybe a little bit to genetics and fate. I can't feed kibble, I just can't, though I know plenty of people who do and their dogs *seem* to be perfectly fine. I had a friend who went to major trouble and expense to feed her first dog, a Portugese water dog, on all raw, and she died from a brain tumor at a fairly young age. Her successor, same breed, and same breeder, I think, is doing just fine on a higher quality kibble, which she switched to now that she had 2 kids and had to prioritize her time and expenses. So who the heck knows. She has a much more balanced perspective on it than I do, obviously. My husband just walked in and told me, after I almost cried telling him all this stuff I was concerned about, that I shouldn't worry, I'd be a good mom, just do the research as best I can, and then let it go. What you said, basically. 

Is your raw feeding plan published on this forum anywhere? What I read on one of the links Marj sent me is now making me wonder if I should do the pre-made raw diet. Seems like they need something to gnaw on and chew - in addition to the meaty bones.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Here's the link to my recipe http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=4799.

I'm thinking I might add in some cooked lentils and millet or barley to the diet as part of what Dr Pitcairn recommends does make sense to me. I may try it out on a small batch of food and see how my guys do on it. He even suggest you can mix in cooked whole wheat bread!


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## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

Thanks again, I will check out Honest Kitchen as posted above by daveT, and the raw recipe. As you can see... lots of conflicting advice. That person who studied the pet foods apparently doesn't like raw, and yet it is the one that makes the most sense to me, though clearly getting everything balanced properly is the key. 

Do you think the NV medallions, rotating the different formulas - i.e. chicken, bison, etc. would be sufficient with maybe some added kelp and also meaty bones or chicken necks with some meals? Or would that be too much bone, considering the NV already has bone in it? Maybe also a good vitamin supplement, some fish oil, etc.? The BARF diet sites don't seem to think much of the prepared raw formulations, though I thought that would leave out the guesswork and be so much more convenient. Right now I am not sure if I have time for the rather involved food prep making everything myself, though maybe after we got through the first few months and I got into a routine. The fact that I'm a quasi-vegetarian, as is my husband, makes it a little harder to stomach working with it. The NV and similar raw prepared diets have to be better than kibble.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

I think if you rotate through the NV medallions, add in some chicken necks (these should replace a meal. I usually give 3 or 4 chicken necks for dinner 3 times a week). That should be fine. You can add in some kelp and when the kelp runs out, add in some alfalfa leaves, when those run out add in some nupro gold. You can also add in some bones for chewing maybe twice a week such as neck bones or marrow bones. I sprinkle some of the supplements on the chicken necks for flavouring too.

I think that will be perfect.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Petaluna said:


> Hi Linda, do you get the Primal locally? I don't think I can buy it around here. Is it frozen? This is where I'd wonder if I could cut the NV with more vegetables to reduce the protein, but I'm assuming that would then throw off the balance. I wonder if there is an effective vitamin supplement that can plug the nutritional holes. I take vitamins, but I wonder sometimes how well I'm digesting and processing them, a lot of it seems to depend on companion nutrients, digestion, etc. Maybe NV for one meal, then the next meal is cooked including some grains and steamed veggies or something.


Hi Petaluna,
Yes, my local pet store carries the Primal. It does come frozen. If you want to learn more about it they do have a website. I've talked to them on the phone several times and the Primal is a complete meal. I don't need to add any supplements.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Petaluna, my favorite expression about feeding these guys is _"Man plans and Dog laughs."_ I too wanted only the best for my boy and then boys...I home cooked for a while until Jasper turned his nose up at my home cooking. :frusty: The NV Medallions was all I could get him to eat as a pup and then when Cash came home...well you just can't feed one medallions and the other kibble. I have bored the forum to no end with this story before...so I am going to just simply say... Jasper became a new, happier dog when I switched him partially back to kibble (and a mediocre kibble at that...the only one he'll eat :frusty::frusty I am not sure if it is the vitamins or the grains, but I know he has more energy now. Cash on the other hand thrives on the medallions and nothing else...he gains weight if he eats any kibble at all.

My point is, you can plan, but your pup may have a different plan...all dogs are different and I agree with everyone here, you have done your research, and you will be ready and prepared for whatever curve ball your your fur ball throws you. :biggrin1:


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

It's so nice to see the support and great advice from everyone. Yes, Carolina, even your admonishings to Petaluna! lol I hope you don't take offense, right Petaluna?  It IS nerve wracking when you first bring a new puppy home and we all want to do what is best.

Like Missy said, _"you can plan, but your pup may have a different plan...all dogs are different and I agree with everyone here, you have done your research, and you will be ready and prepared for whatever curve ball your your fur ball throws you."_

Don't worry! I've second-, third- and fourth-guessed myself over diet so I understand!! lol

I also think that your Hav will get a perfectly fine, balanced diet with NV medallions, switching flavors, some other type of frozen raw complete food like NV and a few raw bones thrown in from time to time. I'd wait until puppy was a little older and had his adult teeth before giving bones though. What do others think about that? Just seems safest to me...... Prepared raw patties/medallions are very convenient and depending on your lifestyle might be just right for you and puppy.

Don't worry.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

There was a raw food maker at the Toronto Havanese show this weekend. It's called 'Paws-Itively Raw Foods'. I spoke to the woman at the booth, and she told me I should avoid raw foods with flax (grains) and Fruits in them..
http://www.paws-itivelyrawfoods.com/

NV has a few fruits plus the flax. Healthy Paws has has fruits but no flax. Urban Carnivore has none. So now I'm pretty confused to.. lol

Hmmmmmm

Ryan


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Ryan, most raw feeders are moving away from fruits and are instead using Botanicals. I don't think it's right or wrong personally. Dogs have a sweet tooth, so if once in awhile you give a dog some fruit (overripe is best) I don't think it will be harmful. 

I haven't read anything about flax other than not really feeding grains, but keep in mind some grains if cooked properly are digested by the stomach quite easily and they can become a cheaper source of protein, carbs, vitamins, and minerals as well as being environmentally good.

Dr Pitcairn has no problem with Barley, Bronw rice, Buckwheat, Bulgur, Cornmeal, Millet, Rolled oats, Wheat berries, Whole-wheat couscous.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Beamer said:


> There was a raw food maker at the Toronto Havanese show this weekend. It's called 'Paws-Itively Raw Foods'. I spoke to the woman at the booth, and she told me I should avoid raw foods with flax (grains) and Fruits in them..
> http://www.paws-itivelyrawfoods.com/
> 
> NV has a few fruits plus the flax. Healthy Paws has has fruits but no flax. Urban Carnivore has none. So now I'm pretty confused to.. lol
> ...


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## Redorr (Feb 2, 2008)

Ryan - do you know the thinking behind the no raw w/flax? Flaxseeds are good for healthy oils and fats. Is it that they can get rancid if not unfrozen and fed immediately? And fruits? Jeez - Lola is so crazy about blueberries, and they are such a good food. what's up with that?


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Anne, Flax xomes from a grain, thats why I was not sure about it. Although its supposed to be really good for the dogs, the grain could cause allergies. (I mean thats the whole reason to feed raw, so you do not have the grains and whatnot..)
Fruits are fine, just not in large quantities. 

Ryan


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

I just started adding lentils to my guys diet. It's a good source of protein. So far so good, no tooting going on....


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Though I agree that no or very little grain is best for dogs, some grains aren't all that harmful and can be easily digested. Steel cut oats and brown rice are fine, well cooked that is. It can be a great source of carbs that don't raise the blood sugar levels too quickly.


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## Redorr (Feb 2, 2008)

Ah, I thought Flax were seeds...fed raw, unlike grains that are cooked. What the heck do they come from?


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Flax seeds come from the flax plant. 

BTW It is one of the oldest commercial oils and solvent-processed flax seed oil has been used for centuries as a drying oil in painting and varnishing.


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