# Stay away from chemicals to treat fleas and ticks



## lovingmypup (Jun 18, 2009)

Hello all, it has been a very long time since I have logged on to the Havanese forum, however, I feel to compelled to tell you guys about what happend to my baby. 

He had been ichy for about 2 weeks now and when I checked him had a Flea or Tick (couldnt tell the difference) on him, this had occured about 3 times during the 2 weeks. The third time I had just had enough and I immediately bathed him with flea and tick shampoo and against my better judgement went straight to Petsmart and bought Zodiac Flea and Tick spray. I sprayed my carpeting and vacated my apartment with JJ for atleast 6 hours and it seemed to be dry when I got back home. JJ (my puppy) ate, played around the apt and went to bed. This morning he woke me up my vomiting and when I took him out he had Diarrhea and some blood in his stool. It only got worst from there! He started leaking blood out of his rectum and could not stop pooping blood, he also threw up 2 more times. I made an appt to go to the Vet and unfortunately the vet did not think it had anything to do with the Zodiac spray, he said it could have been something he ate. He said that JJ was dehydrated due to the vomiting and diarrhea and of course 200.00 later he prescribed him some meds and bland foods. I refuse to believe that it could have been anything else. I know it had to do with the Zodiac spray and now I am so worried and im praying that JJ gets better because I read that these chemicals could be fatal. 

Moral of the story: please do not use any of those sprays or chemicals, it is not worth it!

Any advice would also be greatly appreciated as well!!!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yep, I totally agree.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

I am so very sorry to hear that your pup got so sick. Of course you're right and it's the Zodia spray! It contains Permethrin which can cause some of these problems:

Liver and lung tumors (possible human carcinogen)
Kidney enlargement, changes in lung
Tremors, in-coordination, elevated body temperature, increased aggressive
behavior, learning disruption
Fertility is affected
Bone marrow changes in laboratory animals

Found that on page 3 of 5 at: http://www.apnm.org/publications/resources/fleachemfin.pdf

One of the owners at the store I work at printed out a warning about this product and ingredient as we used to sell that very same spray. Not good! I hope your pup is doing o.k. now. What a horrible scare!


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## barbarak (Jul 27, 2009)

I hope JJ recovers and is feeling well soon. I'm sending him healing thoughts and giving you the advice you requested. Please let us know how he's doing.

I haven't used any chemicals on my puppy. I am very anti-chemicals whether it's for me or for my pets! I've only had him 6 weeks, but I have bathed him 3 times (whenever I saw a flea on him) and used diluted apple cider vinegar as his final rinse. It seems to keep the fleas away for about two weeks. (I comb him every day and always check for fleas.)

I decided to add something called Flea Treats. It's a Vitamin B complex tablet flavored with real liver and they use Brewer's yeast as a base for the tablet. I just started him on them 6 days ago and they typically begin to work within 10 to 20 days. They're a natural repellent to keep the fleas away. I bought them at http://fleatreats.com and they were shipped for free and have a money-back guarantee if not completely satisfied so I figure I can't lose trying them.

Meanwhile, throw out the flea shampoo! Use a good natural pet shampoo and diluted ACV as a final rinse after the conditioner. (_I'm using Plush Puppy_.) Any soapy water will kill fleas. Between shampoos, use a flea comb. Dip it in soapy water between passes through JJ's coat to kill any fleas trapped in the comb and wipe it on a paper towel or rag after dipping it.

Flea Treats will keep the fleas off JJ but it won't kill the fleas if they're in your apartment. Instead of using chemicals, use 20 Mule Team Borax on your carpets and upholstery. It will dehydrate the fleas. It's safer but it's still best to keep pets off the carpet until you vacuum up the borax. Leave the borax on for 3 to 4 hours, then vacuum and dispose of the vacuum cleaner bag in an *outside* trash can.

I hope this helps and I hope there's no other cause for JJ's bleeding and vomiting.

Barbara


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## Pamelabous (Jan 19, 2010)

Hi Guys! What about [email protected]!ne Plus for fleas and ticks. We have deer in our backyard everyday and our Vet strongly suggested it as well as [email protected]@rd for hearworm prevention. Would LOVE to hear your ideas on this!! (I put the brands in "code" to prevent any issues) ~Pamela


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## kudo2u (Mar 7, 2009)

Not all soapy water kills fleas. It has to be thick enough (or oily enough) to suffocate them. Fleas actually breathe through their skin. The soapy water clogs their pores and prevents the intake of oxygen.

Dish soap actually works really well because it is so thick. But I wouldn't wash my dogs in dish soap because it really does a number on their coat!

Although I can't remember the specific brand right now, there is a natural flea shampoo on the market. Has oatmeal to help soote the bites, and I've found it to be pretty good. But again, not the best for the coat. So I always end up doing a heavy conditioner and a REALLY good rinse after that.


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## Pixiesmom (Jul 31, 2008)

I really like essential oils for lots of things, fleas and ticks included, but I truly think some of the old school products are more dangerous than something like Comfortis or Capstar. Biospot is one that I've read is really dangerous and should be pulled off the shelves. I remember when I had my schipperkes and the poor babies enduring flea dips, Adams sprays, etc. Dreadful stuff.
I don't use anything on my two (they really don't go outside much now-way too hot). DE is great stuff also, ditto on the Borax.
Sorry your little guy fell ill, hope he's feeling better very soon.


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## barbarak (Jul 27, 2009)

Pamelabous said:


> Hi Guys! What about [email protected]!ne Plus for fleas and ticks. We have deer in our backyard everyday and our Vet strongly suggested it as well as [email protected]@rd for hearworm prevention. Would LOVE to hear your ideas on this!! (I put the brands in "code" to prevent any issues) ~Pamela


*A variety of common flea and tick products contain chemicals called organophosphate insecticides (OPs) and carbamates, both of which have been linked to brain damage, endocrine system problems and certain kinds of cancer. An overdose can kill people and pets. Even with normal use, organophosphate products can pose a serious health risk.* Each year, Americans purchase and apply to their pets a vast array of toxic chemicals intended to kill fleas and ticks. These include collars, sprays, dusts and more. Other pet owners take their pets to veterinarians to be dipped in chemicals. Many consumers probably assume that the products they and their vets use have been subjected to rigorous testing, and must, by virtue of their very ubiquity, be safe. After all, how could the government let deadly poisons be sold on grocery store shelves without applying stringent standards? *Spot-On Pesticides such as Frontline, Zodiac, Defend, Bio Spot, Adams and Advantage trigger adverse reactions in dogs and cats, shorten life spans, cause terminal illness, and premature death. *

The active ingredients in these solutions include chemicals such as imidacloprid, fipronil, permethrin, methoprene, and pyriproxyfen, all of which have caused serious health problems in animals in laboratories. Even some of the inert ingredients can be hazardous to your animal companion's health. Other forms of flea control-powders, collars, and sprays-are no less dangerous to you or your companion animals. *Labels may warn not to get these substances on your skin, to wash your hands after applying it, and to keep it away from children, yet these chemicals are absorbed by your animal's skin.* Immediate effects of pesticide overdose include vomiting, diarrhea, trembling, seizures, and respiratory problems. If your dog or cat shows any of these symptoms after the application of a pesticide, immediately wash the product off and seek veterinary care.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I do the ACV like Barbara and have been for several years with no treatment. Even taking into consideration what you are putting on your dog and their health, I just really don't like the idea of putting posion on my dogs who sleep in my bed. I do think it is a personal choice and take in consideration your area and where you live. Ironically the only time one of my dogs got fleas, she was on medication!


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## Eva (Jun 20, 2008)

Todd is really allergic to flea bites and so he's usually dosed with Revolution during the summer since it repels the fleas but generally DE and Borax in the carpet keeps the house flea free.
I stayed at my sister's house last week (she has a cat) with Todd and thought nothing of it until I started seeing little black dots on his face..yep, fleas  So...that means that the dose of revolution that he had a week before our trip isn't working for him and I'm back to square 1.. I'd like to keep it natural but with his allergies I have to be sure that it's going to work..anyone know of any natural remedies or products that are truly effective?


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## brugmansia (Dec 6, 2007)

Does ACV stand for apple cider vinegar? How do you do a wash with it? Is it good for ticks also? I don't really have to be concerned about ticks unless I go into an area that may have them. Thanks.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Oh Eva, that sucks! I don't know of other methods other than what's been mentioned here. Good luck!!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

This is going to be unpopular. But thought it good the share the other side. I hate the idea of chemicals on My boys but I hate the idea of fleas and ticks more! My intiregrative but primarily holistic vet feels that frontline plus is the lesser of two evils. It protects your dogs and it protects you and your family. I used to give the boys the winter months off, but after Cash got deadly sick from what was thought to be a tick borne disease, they now get their Frontline year round. It is a personal choice and I weighed all sides and all products and this is where we landed. Tick borne diseases are nasty for man and beast.


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## Eva (Jun 20, 2008)

Missy said:


> This is going to be unpoular. I hate the idea of chemicals on My boys but I hate the idea of fleas and ticks more! My interegrative but primarily holistic vet feels that frontline plus is the lesser of two evils. It protects your dogs and it protects you and your family. I used to give the boys the winter months off, but after Cash got deadly sick from what was thought to be a tick borne disease, they now get their Frontline year round. It is a personal choice and I weighed all sides and all products and this is where we landed. Tick borne diseases are nasty for man and beast.


I completely understand Missy. :hug:
I had such a horrible time finding something that worked for Todd as a puppy that I resolved to use Revolution rather than watch his scratch and chew away all of his fur..it's sometimes the best option. I haven't tried Frontline yet but I think that it's going to be my next trial. 
The house that we're moving into had 3 cats..not sure if they were full of fleas but it's next door to my sister's house (which I know has fleas) so I have to make sure that Todd's protected


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

I agree, Missy, that you have to do what feels right for you. I can not even STAND the idea of fleas in our home, yet I still haven't treated the dogs in 2 summers now. We aren't very outdoorsy and there are very few sandy areas, or wooded areas around us. I do treat my one outdoor cat because he's all over the place! I do have some Frontline in the house that I may use on Sammy should I need to. 
We might just be lucky so far.


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## Mojo's Mom (Jun 6, 2009)

It's all very good and well to talk about the health hazards of topical pesticides and collars. I was fully against all such things until this spring I found my home and my dog infested with the worst tick problem I have ever seen in all my years of dog ownership. 

Mojo is apparently a tick magnet, although we have been spared much trouble with fleas. We live in south Florida on a heavily wooded five acres and ticks are VERY bad here. For some reason, Mojo has had extreme trouble this year and we had no choice but to go with topicals AND a tick collar. Even now, he still gets a few ticks, but they are getting killed instead of feeding and reproducing. We had the house and yard professionally sprayed 4 separate times, in addition to all the prevention we threw at the dog. 

It upsets me terribly to put these products on Mojo, but the alternative was not acceptable. At the height of the problem, Mojo was covered in seed ticks, and I will never forget the many weeks of spending an hour every night going over every centimeter of his coat looking for ticks and removing them. It was a nightmare.

Essential oils may work in situations where the parasite problem is very mild, but where ticks are rampant, it is not going to be enough. Every situation is different, and the risks/benefits of any course of action must be weighed on an individual basis. One has to remember that tick borne diseases are very, very nasty, and fleas also carry serious diseases. Pick your poison, no pun intended. I am very envious of those who can get away without using pesticides on their dogs.

I would also note that my last two dogs, mutt littermates, had topicals on them their entire lives and lived to ripe old ages with no serious health problems.


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## Pixiesmom (Jul 31, 2008)

I have a friend who lives here also and her Aussie got an awful tick infestation, as did her home. She also had it treated numerous times and they were relentless little creatures. I can definitely feel for you Mojo's Mom. I will say that we have been very lucky so far and if ever the day came when either of my dogs were infested, I'll be running to the vet for something-you can count on it.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I've been spraying inside the dog yards for years with a citrus extract.

d-limonene specifically

Amazon.com: Orange Guard 103 Water Based Indoor/Outdoor Home Pest Control - 32 oz Spray: Patio&#133;

We buy it by the gallon from some place like "green terpenes". I use a hose end sprayer to spray the dog yards and dog porch after the dogs go to bed about once every two weeks.

We've never had any flea or tick problems since we started doing that and we might put one of the spot-ons on one or two dogs if they are going out somewhere for several days and we plan on getting home too late after a long trip to bathe them before they get put back with the pack. In other words, rarely.

I do spray around the boundaries of our yard about once a month with Sevin since we are bordered by several hundred acres of woods with two herds of deer and all sorts of other wildlife.


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

I have no idea if this really works, or not. We generally don't have any problem w/ticks. I received it in a "Thrifty Tips" email. For what it's worth...

_*Use Liquid Soap to Remove Ticks*
Apply a glob of liquid soap to a cotton ball and cover the tick with the soap-soaked cotton ball. Let it stay on the repulsive insect for one minute, after which the tick will come out on it's own. If the tick is not stuck to the cotton ball, wipe the area gently with a washcloth and the tick will stick to the washcloth. Repeat if necessary.
This is the safest and best way to remove a tick because there is no chance of part of the tick breaking away under the skin. I can't see where this could be harmful to anyone unless of course the person has an allergy to soap. I've had this tip saved for a while and had the opportunity to try it today on my husband. It worked perfect on the first try and he was more than impressed and grateful
Source: Received in an email from my friend Debbie who lives in Tallahassee, FL who said it came from a school nurse who learned it from a Pediatrician._


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Growing up living in the woods in N.C. and Va., I've pulled hundreds, probably even thousands of ticks off of me and animals. Just pull the tick with fingers enough so the skin - yours or the animal's- is pulled away from it's normal position a bit and the tick will turn loose in not too many seconds.

One of our farm dogs was a baby that I heard hollering from a 1/4 mile away in the woods. I followed the sound until I go to her. She was just a few weeks old, solid white, and her normally flop ears were so full of ticks that they stood out to the side. She was so hungry that she had chewed all the hair off her tail.

I poured hydrogen peroxide in her ears, holding them upright, until it stopped boiling, and spent hours pulling ticks out. She became one of the best dogs I ever had. Pam and I have been married for 30 years, and she was old when I met Pam, so this was a long time ago.

My mother asked me what I was going to name that extra dog. I already had several other dogs and hadn't come up with a name for her yet. I named her Extra.


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## barbarak (Jul 27, 2009)

*Of course everyone must make their own decisions, but the original poster had a very sick dog after using Zodiac and asked for advice. *

I admit that I'm lucky to have had no experience with ticks and I've never even seen one. I don't like fleas or ticks any more than anyone who chooses to use poisons to eliminate them (_and I used to use them too before I knew any better just because the vet rec. them_). * I just prefer to use natural methods that will not harm my beloved Havanese. If I wouldn't put it on my skin, I won't put it on his. 
*
The ACV (yes, it's apple cider vinegar) seems to work for about 2 weeks at a time. YMMV! I dilute half a cup of it with half a gallon of water and use it as Huggie's final rinse after a good natural shampoo and conditioner. He has a beautiful shiny coat as an added bonus. The ACV is an external flea deterrant. The Flea Treats are an internal flea deterrant I just began using last week. So far, this seems to be working for us.

*I did read on Fleatreats.com that they developed them to repel fleas. But so many customers told them that their pets' tick troubles were over too, that in 1997 they extended their guarantee to include ticks.*

Besides the borax for your carpet I mentioned in my earlier post, *frequent vacuuming is the safest way to remove the occasional flea that may hitchhike into your home on you or a visitor.*


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

there is another thread right now that talks about sticking to a topic and being civil. I think this thread is a good example of laying all sides of an argument out in one thread.

I could have just not posted in this thread because I disagree, But I think back to when Cash was just over a year and he had a fever on a Tuesday and by Friday he was lame. There were 4 trips to the vet in-between Tuesday and Friday, Luckily, one of those earlier trips to my wonderful vet, had the foresight to say you know, he didn't test positively, but there are probably countless tick borne diseases that we don't even have names or tests for yet. So she treated him with intravenous Doxycyline and sent us home with a 30 day presciption. Still, he was sick one day fine the next, until on that Friday my Vet thought he would not make it, but sent us to a neurologist. Who also found nothing in test results ( $3000 of testing) but sent us home with an additional antibiotic and steroids if in a week he was showing no improvement (luckily we did not need the steroids) The neurologist thinks that it was starting the antibiotic so early that saved my Cash. The up and down fever followed by lameness is a classic tick borne symptom. There may have been something else going on with Cash too, we will never know. But Cash is fine now! But that month of a really sick pup etched in me how deadly a little tick bite can be for a small dog. So I agree, it is personal decision, but for me, I would prefer to treat my boys with a topical once a month and risk one or two years off the end of their lives from treating with chemicals than losing them to a tick bite now. I think that this is what is so valuable about this forum is you get to weigh all sides. I know my opinion has been changed on many things.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I agree present both sides even if yours is in the minority, take in consideration WHERE you live, what you do with your dog, and think about what is best for your own dog. I personally feel the slight coverage my dog might get to repel fleas or ticks doesn't outweigh the risks. I have known a lot of dogs who have had very bad side effects and then skin issues down the road as well. I have also known many dogs that get fleas and ticks and illnesses even when getting monthly treatment. So then I started researching took the plunge and am willing to share what I have discovered for my furkids. It very well might not work for your dogs either.

Missy- was Cash on topical the time he came down with the tick borne illness?


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Meghan, I am truly sorry to hear your struggles caused by the pesticides. As a fibromylagia sufferer, I can only slightly relate to what you have been through. I applaud you and especially your doctors for getting to the root of it (in my experience a rare occurance) And I am grinning from ear to ear that you are on the upside and that Lily-your-love has helped you so much. Personally, thank you for sharing your info, it will help me continue to weigh the decisions I make for the boys. 

Amanda, I had to go back and check. But yes, Cash got sick in March which means he would have been off Frontline for at least 2 months possibly 3 as we used to stop once the snow fell.


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## Pixiesmom (Jul 31, 2008)

Meghan-in the 90's here they actually sprayed Malation EVERYWHERE to control fruit flies. I remember cars in my work parking lot that had the paint job destoyed from the stuff. The helicopters would just spray in the middle of the afternoon. It was ridiculous.


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## LilyMyLove (Jul 11, 2009)

Missy said:


> Meghan, I am truly sorry to hear your struggles caused by the pesticides. As a fibromylagia sufferer, I can only slightly relate to what you have been through. I applaud you and especially your doctors for getting to the root of it (in my experience a rare occurance) And I am grinning from ear to ear that you are on the upside and that Lily-your-love has helped you so much. Personally, thank you for sharing your info, it will help me continue to weigh the decisions I make for the boys.


Thank you Missy. I'm sure you can relate quite a bit, then. I hope that you have a doctor you like and are getting some kind of relief.



Pixiesmom said:


> Meghan-in the 90's here they actually sprayed Malation EVERYWHERE to control fruit flies. I remember cars in my work parking lot that had the paint job destoyed from the stuff. The helicopters would just spray in the middle of the afternoon. It was ridiculous.


Thats so scary. Knowing what I know now, it still shocks me that they can do that stuff.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

by the way Meghan, your signature picture is adorable! Lily is a love.


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