# Early Spay/Neuter - Proper Growth?



## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

I of course am still doing a lot of reading and surfing the net on any issues connected with doggie care that come up. 

I am doing more reading on the subject of spaying and neutering before growth plates have closed, before a dog has reached physical maturity in terms of their bone growth and physical development. I'm running across quite a few articles and discussions from vets, pet owners and breeders that spaying neutering before 12-18 months can be detrimental in terms of bone growth (because the hormones affect that), as well as certain cancers and heart disease, possibly even some behavioral issues. I'm aware of the mammary tumor issue with later spays, but I'm wondering if that is less of a problem if the dog is on a very healthy diet and is still spayed before her second heat, and maybe that is not enough of a reason... ? I should say that it's a discussion taking place mostly regarding the larger breeds like goldens and labs because of their tendency toward things like hip dysplasia, but apparently can be an issue in any breed. I have to say.... it makes sense to me, that the sex hormones are important for growth and development. They are in humans, right?

I spayed my yorkie at 4 months, my breeder is recommending by 6 months for my new puppy, and I'm pretty sure I would void the contract if I waited longer, so it's probably not even an option to wait.

Just trying to educate myself and wondering if anyone else knows about this, particularly the breeders here and medical people (AKA Maryam!)


----------



## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

I just had this discussion with our vet about Murphy as the rescue mom wanted him neutered immediately, I wanted to wait until 6 months. After she spoke with our vet she agreed to let us adopt him as long as we do have him neutered around 6 months. The vet told me she doesn't like to do it before 6 months because it interferes with their hormones which affects growth and can slightly alter their appearance. We're going to do it at 6 months as we did with Scooter.


----------



## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

Ohhhh....good topic. I have Bentley scheduled for slightly less than 5 months for neutering and I am worried he is too young. They said no, as long as his testicles were descended, so I will be following this post closely.


----------



## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

I would love to hear from some of the breeders on the forum to see what their opinion is.


----------



## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

When I got my second Hav, there was some talk about early spay and neuter being bad. I had to neuter fred at 6 month, it was in the contract. I waited to do Scuds, because I was showing him. He was neutered at about a year.

If you can wait, I don't think it would hurt.


----------



## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

Thanks Ann, good to know. What I have been reading on this topic (so far) is around the issue of them being completely grown first, which I don't think happens as early as 6 months. So, still not sure what to think. I will talk to my vet about it when I take her for her first visit, but waiting past 6 months may not be an option, regardless. 

Seems like there are bound to be some consequences by removing hormone-producing organs during a growth stage, though I guess the bigger worry in most people's minds is over-population of unwanted animals, and so even if there's knowledge that it might not be optimal to spay and neuter before their growth is complete, it's done anyway as the lesser of two evils, so to speak.


----------



## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

btw, I think it varies from breeder to breeder, what they recommend. My breeder works for a vet, and so probably would follow his recommendations. On the flip side I visited a breeder last year who I felt was equally responsible and seasoned, and they recommended having the puppy go through one heat cycle first. So, it's all very confusing to say the least, and not something I thought about or researched with my last dog. I'm on information overload right now....


----------



## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

If you'll be taking her to any classes or daycare they may require that she's spayed.


----------



## rdanielle (Sep 2, 2008)

I've always wondered this! I got my first Papillon, Gizmo & had him neutered at 3 to 4 months. He has a dantier bone structure than my 2nd Pap, Yoshi. Yoshi was neutered at 11 months. He's more muscular and sturdy.

Ok, this is goin to to sound crazy but bear with me ound:LOL
Does neutering affect wang size? Gizmo's you can barely tell he has a wang but Yoshi just hangs there... Growth stunt? 

I thought Yoshi was supposed to be smaller than Gizmo but he turned out to be the same height and a bit heavier. They're rather leggy for Papillons.. 

sorry for the Non-Havs..


----------



## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

LOL Danielle! I don't have an answer for you but your post made me laugh!


----------



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I have heard that dogs s/n early the growth plates don't close at the correct time. Isabelle was spayed at 6 months and she could be a little tall for her little size but she is smaller than both her parents so not sure how much is genetics. Dora was 7 months and she is 10 1/2 inches. I would be more interested in studies where they followed dogs till an older age. Belle is 6 and Dora is 4 so they are both still pretty young.


----------



## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

I am glad I saw this thread. Bentley will have his neuter May 13, 9 days before he is 5 months. They only said his testicles had to be descended. Now I am scared.


----------



## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

I wouldn't be scared Sharlene, I wanted some input from breeders before I decide for sure when it will be done. Sorry, I didn't mean to make anyone worry!


----------



## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

Danielle, I did read that sex organs can be smaller and underdeveloped when neutering earlier, i.e before physical maturity. As for growing taller or lankier, thinner boned, that was discussed also and seems to be the case - what Amanda said, the growth plates close later, bones keep growing because the hormone has been removed that tells them when to stop growing. Apparently it affects even head shape and coat texture in some of them. (I was reading a discussion by breeders and avid pet owners on a Golden Retriever message board.) Wild, and yet not surprising. The reason I brought up this topic is that human and veterinary medicine are always advancing, but sometimes when they realize they've been doing something wrong, it can take eons to reach all spheres - like more and more vets are recognizing that our dogs are over-vaccinated and the "new" recommendations by many is that yearly boosters aren't necessary for most of the vaccines, yet so many vets still believe the old school ideas and recommend otherwise. I think the spay surgery is easier on a younger puppy (easier recovery and also simpler for the surgeon) vs. an adult, and between that and the risk of an unplanned (or worse - planned) breeding, my hunch is that early S/N is the norm for those reasons, rather than truly for the health of the dog.

Here's one article I ran across: http://www.dpca.org/BreedEd/PDF/EarlySpayConsiderations.pdf

cliff notes version on Colorado vet's website (wish I could visit this vet, sounds right up my alley): http://www.belleviewanimalclinic.com/early_spaying_or_neutering

There is information to the contrary out there, too, it just makes more common sense to me that S/N before growth is finished and cutting off that hormone supply would affect development. Heck, I know how I FEEL when my hormones are out of whack.

Might be in one of those articles where they suggest tubal ligation/vasectomy until the dog is fully mature, and then regular neutering/spay, though that means putting them through two procedures.

I know it's all necessary, but I feel a bit guilty about doing any of it to my pets. I'm pretty sure if they could talk they'd say "no thanks!"  I don't want to risk voiding my contract because I love my little girl already and don't want to lose her because I wanted to wait a little later for her spay, but I am going to continue researching it, talk to my vet, and maybe broach the subject with my breeder depending on the consensus, I'll decide later. In a million years I would never breed her, and she'd never be out of my sight if she was in heat. It would be easier for sure to get it out of the way early, but I feel a huge responsibility to make the best decisions for her, since she doesn't get to dictate her own destiny, if that makes sense.


----------



## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

Scooter's Family said:


> I wouldn't be scared Sharlene, I wanted some input from breeders before I decide for sure when it will be done. Sorry, I didn't mean to make anyone worry!


Oh no, Ann...you didn't scare me...only enlightened me to pay attention and do more research. I can always postpone my appointment if I hear I should do something differently.


----------



## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Sharlene, honestly I would wait until Bentley was 6 months. 5 months is awfully young in my opinion. The other reason it's good to wait a little longer is to make sure that all of Bentley's teeth have a chance to fall out. If any of them need to be pulled, it'd be better not to have to put him under again later to do that. Kubrick was neutered at exactly 6 months and he had one tooth pulled (I think he was a week shy of month 6, but if you counted weeks he was 26 weeks already). He IS a taller Hav, but he's within the standard and he has always been tall. He was 11lbs at 6 months and fluctuates between 14.5-15lbs full grown.

Hitchcock will be neutered at 6 months as well and his dad, Piaget, is obviously NOT neutered but is also at the tall end of the standard and is about 15lbs. I'm expecting Hitch to be around the same size as Kubrick.


----------



## rdanielle (Sep 2, 2008)

Petaluna, thanks for the information. It all makes since now. Its kinda crazy though that I've wound up with 2 Paps that are unusually leggy, each were from different breeders. Both are the same height, an inch past Pap standard last time I checked. The one that I got neutered early his hair is very soft and the other's hair is rather coarse.


----------



## rdanielle (Sep 2, 2008)

I went to a dog show a few months back and my Paps are amazons in comparison to the ones that I saw there! One breeder in her 20 years of breeding she only saw one or two that were too leggy!


----------



## tuggersmom (Oct 16, 2008)

we neutered Tugger at 6 months and he has a lot of bone and is about 15 lbs. Also, after our experience at the dog park last week, has not lost his "drive" to procreate even though it has been 8 months since he was neutered.


----------



## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

I read that some breeders of the larger breed dogs have it in their contract that the dog WON'T be neutered/spayed until 18 months of age. Makes you wonder, doesn't it? Why would a small dog be any different, maybe just less obviously symptomatic. That little pap does have some long legs!


----------



## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

Thanks Lina. I thought of the teeth as well. Evye is 6 months and I believe she just finished losing her teeth. At least I haven't found any in several days. As much as I would like to have them done together, perhaps I should wait or at the very least speak with this vet's office and ask their reasoning why they feel it is okay to have him done at 5 months. I would hate to have him have to undergo two procedures, neutering then later teeth extraction. A win/win situation for them but poor Bentley (and the poor wallet).


----------



## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

I request that my buyers spay/neuter later and show them the article that you posted. After saying that, they don't listen so why bother? :frusty::frusty:
Their vets want the business and money a spay/neuter brings in plus for so many years we've been programmed to fix our dogs early in life so I guess I can't blame them.


----------



## sweetlotus (Nov 26, 2008)

Wait, so I'm confused. Should I wait until Mochi is 1 year old before spaying her then? The link pasted recommends that. Or are people just saying that we shouldn't spay/neuter before 6 months? I'm not quite sure I'd know how to handle a heat cycle... but I would only want the best for her development.


----------



## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

My vet told me the growth difference is more apparent in larger breeds. I didn't want to neuter him so early as I was also worried about him having anesthesia at such a young age. When Scooter was done at 6 months he also had teeth extracted. Our vet told me it's ultimately up to me but she'd be hesitant to do it before 6 months.


----------



## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

I am definitely postponing Bentley's neuter until he is at least six months. I felt uncomfortable anyway and this thread helped me confirm my reasons why......so now the question is do I go ahead and do Evye now or try to hold off until Bentley is 6 months which would make Evye approaching 9 months...(thinking out loud) always a challenge weighing pros and cons. 

My vet said the same thing that growth issues are with the larger dogs....but I would rather play it safe than be sorry. Again, thank you for all the wonderful input and knowledge on this forum.


----------



## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

It is something to consider for sure. I don't know how lengthy the studies have been, but it does appear that early neuter leads to much larger dogs.

I request that my puppy owners do not neuter before six months (and warn against earlier than that), but can wait until 8 months. The problem with waiting for a neuter is that so many males develop bad habits (marking especially) because owners don't stay on top of that, so after 8 months poses other problems. Honestly, I trust the judgment of my puppy owners and wouldn't let a puppy live with them if I didn't. They can get the neuter done when they like and I encourage that they read up on as much as they can and talk to their veterinarian. (I do have a hefty penalty clause for any breeding that is done with that dog if he was sold on a neuter contract, but the timing for the surgery is up to them.)

In regard to spay surgeries, I've heard both sides about waiting until after the first heat cycle and making sure you do it before the first season (preventing mammary cancer). Again, I leave that decision up to the puppy owner, but encourage them to learn as much as they can and talk to their veterinarian openly.


----------



## Petaluna (May 9, 2008)

Thanks for the feedback, Kimberly. I'll be very interested to see what my vet says about it, she's pretty progressive.


----------



## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

Yes, Kimberly thank you.


----------



## leena365 (Sep 17, 2009)

I have just had Kashi and Miya neutered and spayed. Kashi will be 24 weeks on Friday and Miya will be 23 weeks. The Vet recommended that they keep the cone around their head for ten days until the sutures come out as they will tend to start chewing and licking themselves down there tomorrow. I am just concerned about them trying to eat and drink with the collar on. Any suggestions for me?


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

leena365 said:


> I have just had Kashi and Miya neutered and spayed. Kashi will be 24 weeks on Friday and Miya will be 23 weeks. The Vet recommended that they keep the cone around their head for ten days until the sutures come out as they will tend to start chewing and licking themselves down there tomorrow. I am just concerned about them trying to eat and drink with the collar on. Any suggestions for me?


You can always use a onesie instead of an e-collar to keep them away from their stitches. The other thing to remember is that you don't have to keep the collar on them ALL the time... you just need to monitor them carefully to keep them from chewing when they have it off. So you can certainly take the collars off when they eat... they will be more interested in their food than their stitches.

Some dogs just don't bother their stitches either... My vet watched Kodi for a while after his surgery, and felt that he'd probably be fine without a collar. He asked me to keep an eye on him, but that if I didn't see him bothering the incision, he wouldn't need one. He never wore one and never bothered his stitches. He did wear a onesie for just one day, because his skin got irritated from being shaved, and we had to put Lanacaine on him for that. The onesie kept him from licking the Lanacaine and getting it into his system.


----------



## leena365 (Sep 17, 2009)

My Vet here felt he needed his collar and so did she. Miya was able to remove her collar herself after the second night, and when my husband tried to put it back on her she went into attack mode. She just would not allow us to put that collar back on. Kashi on the other hand is just so sweet and calm he has allowed me to remove it and groom him and then refasten the collar. Miya we have decided to put a coat on her but backwards and since then she has not bothered with her stitches. The keeping them away from each other has been tough though. They do not get their stitches removed until Saturday. Thanks for the advice.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

rdanielle said:


> I've always wondered this! I got my first Papillon, Gizmo & had him neutered at 3 to 4 months. He has a dantier bone structure than my 2nd Pap, Yoshi. Yoshi was neutered at 11 months. He's more muscular and sturdy.
> 
> Ok, this is goin to to sound crazy but bear with me ound:LOL
> Does neutering affect wang size? Gizmo's you can barely tell he has a wang but Yoshi just hangs there... Growth stunt?
> ...


From what I have read much depends upon the breed and the growth rate. I think there is a lot of agreement that the growth plates need to be closed prior to spay/neuter. Some Lowchen breeders believe as late as possible and some say "never, if possible". They all say that it needs to be after 1 year. I realize there is much controversary here. (I don't know about wang size, but probably it would make a differece :-} ) Recently when I was talking to a breeder about a puppy I voiced my objection to early neutering, such as was done with my last dog, and they agreeded to change the terms, as long as I promised not to breed the dog. But it is a conversation you need to have before the purchase, if you are concerned...


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> From what I have read much depends upon the breed and the growth rate. I think there is a lot of agreement that the growth plates need to be closed prior to spay/neuter. Some Lowchen breeders believe as late as possible and some say "never, if possible". They all say that it needs to be after 1 year. I realize there is much controversary here. (I don't know about wang size, but probably it would make a differece :-} ) Recently when I was talking to a breeder about a puppy I voiced my objection to early neutering, such as was done with my last dog, and they agreeded to change the terms, as long as I promised not to breed the dog. But it is a conversation you need to have before the purchase, if you are concerned...


OOOPS, I meant to say all the Lowchen breeders I spoke with who are against early neutering, or neutering at all, say if you must do it, wait until after 1 year.


----------

