# Broken hair after grooming



## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I’ve been posting about figuring out what to use on my Hav’e coat and seemed to be making progress. Yesterday when I picked up my puppy from the groomer I noticed he looked even more fuzzy further down his back. He wasn’t trimmed at all, and I wet him and applied conditioner and it didn’t seem to help. I think the brush or dryer or something they use is damaging the ends of his coat. What might be causing this? 

I brushed and combed him well the night before and when I combed through him I pulled out a ton of those tiny mats that come from wrapped hair. They look broken to me.


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## cishepard (Apr 8, 2018)

I have a similar question. I think our dogs are around the same age and I am noticing much shorter, ‘fuzzier’ hairs on Bingo’s back, almost as if they have broken. I groom him myself, so I know I am not damaging his coat, but I am wondering if he is blowing his puppy coat and these shorter hairs are the new coat coming in. He has yet to go through a matting, shedding stage, or maybe I’m just keeping up by combing him out every day. It’s been a long time since I raised a drop coated dog, and I have no idea if this shorter back hair is normal symptom of a coat change, or if Bingo’s coat will just be weird since he is mixed with Chihuahua.

I have also been experimenting with conditioners and grooming sprays, but suspect a lot of it is futile until his final texture is revealed!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I think both your dogs are about a year? If so, I'm quite sure that what you are seeing is normal coat blowing. It often happens in stages, and on different parts of the body. So you'll think it's done because they stop getting mats under their armpits or around their neck, only to start on the back or their "pantaloons". Great fun, but they DO get through it!!!


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## cishepard (Apr 8, 2018)

That’s a relief to hear, Karen! I am so hoping for a beautiful, flowing ShihTzu coat on Bingo as an adult : )


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

krandall said:


> I think both your dogs are about a year? If so, I'm quite sure that what you are seeing is normal coat blowing. It often happens in stages, and on different parts of the body. So you'll think it's done because they stop getting mats under their armpits or around their neck, only to start on the back or their "pantaloons". Great fun, but they DO get through it!!!


This is what I assumed until this appointment. The ends seem frayed, though, and when I trim them off it looks better - still cottony, but not as broken looking. I had just trimmed a lot of the ends a couple of weeks ago and after the groom the ends look broken again. It almost looks singed to me, but I don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe it's just frizzy from the shampoo they used and it'll settle back down after a complete bath.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

cishepard said:


> That's a relief to hear, Karen! I am so hoping for a beautiful, flowing ShihTzu coat on Bingo as an adult : )


Shih Tzu coats are quite different from Havanese coats, but I suspect they have a similar "blowing coat" phase.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> This is what I assumed until this appointment. The ends seem frayed, though, and when I trim them off it looks better - still cottony, but not as broken looking. I had just trimmed a lot of the ends a couple of weeks ago and after the groom the ends look broken again. It almost looks singed to me, but I don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe it's just frizzy from the shampoo they used and it'll settle back down after a complete bath.


If you trim dying puppy coat hairs, they might look better in the moment, but they will still look dry and split pretty soon, because they aren't healthy, growing hair. The only thing that will (eventually) solve the problem is for those individual hairs to fall out and be replaced by the adult ones. I am pretty sure that's all you are seeing. Give it 6 -8 months and it will look better. A Havanese coat isn't fully mature until they are about 3 years old.


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## cishepard (Apr 8, 2018)

krandall said:


> Shih Tzu coats are quite different from Havanese coats, but I suspect they have a similar "blowing coat" phase.


They do, and Bingo inherited dominant genes for a long coat (per Embark genetic test), so I'm hoping for the best whether it is ShihTzu-ish or Havanese-ish or whatever.

Right now his texture is all over the place - long and silky on ears and his white shoulder 'scarf', soft and cottony elsewhere, dry and broken feeling with short and long hairs on his back and flanks. Is that normal sounding for a blowing coat on a Havanese?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

cishepard said:


> They do, and Bingo inherited dominant genes for a long coat (per Embark genetic test), so I'm hoping for the best whether it is ShihTzu-ish or Havanese-ish or whatever.
> 
> Right now his texture is all over the place - long and silky on ears and his white shoulder 'scarf', soft and cottony elsewhere, dry and broken feeling with short and long hairs on his back and flanks. Is that normal sounding for a blowing coat on a Havanese?


Yes, it does. But I have a friend with show Shih Tzus. I'll ask her what they are like when blowing puppy coat. I know the adult coats are heavier and not as silky as Havanese coats.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

krandall said:


> If you trim dying puppy coat hairs, they might look better in the moment, but they will still look dry and split pretty soon, because they aren't healthy, growing hair. The only thing that will (eventually) solve the problem is for those individual hairs to fall out and be replaced by the adult ones. I am pretty sure that's all you are seeing. Give it 6 -8 months and it will look better. A Havanese coat isn't fully mature until they are about 3 years old.


This is exactly the piece I've been missing! I thought all of the hair that's left after this peak of blowing coat is all his adult, permanent coat. It's in such bad shape, even without mats, I felt an urgency to figure out how to make it look better. Knowing this part is temporary, too, is a huge relief. I have found a lot of bandaid solutions to help, so now I can just relax and make do and then revisit products in a year or so.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!


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## cishepard (Apr 8, 2018)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> This is exactly the piece I've been missing! I thought all of the hair that's left after this peak of blowing coat is all his adult, permanent coat. It's in such bad shape, even without mats, I felt an urgency to figure out how to make it look better. Knowing this part is temporary, too, is a huge relief. I have found a lot of bandaid solutions to help, so now I can just relax and make do and then revisit products in a year or so.
> 
> Thank you, thank you, thank you!


Now that a few weeks have gone by, how is your pups coat coming along? 
Bingo seems to be almost done with losing the puppy hairs on his back and hindquarters. Those were the ones looking dry and broken and they were 4-5" long. What I presume to be the new adult coat underneath is about 2" so far and definitely a different texture - not so fine and cottony but thicker, shinier and 'richer' is how I would describe it. I'm very pleased with it so far.
I think his coat change is moving to his shoulders now as the very long hair there is starting to matt a bit and come out in the comb. Over all, it is a very interesting process!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

cishepard said:


> Now that a few weeks have gone by, how is your pups coat coming along?
> Bingo seems to be almost done with losing the puppy hairs on his back and hindquarters. Those were the ones looking dry and broken and they were 4-5" long. What I presume to be the new adult coat underneath is about 2" so far and definitely a different texture - not so fine and cottony but thicker, shinier and 'richer' is how I would describe it. I'm very pleased with it so far.
> I think his coat change is moving to his shoulders now as the very long hair there is starting to matt a bit and come out in the comb. Over all, it is a very interesting process!


BTW, I did check with my Shih Tzu friend but forgot to report back. She said that the Shih Tzu coat blowing is very similar to what we experience with Havanese!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I’m having trouble for sure, but I’m hanging in there! 

The area on his back where it looks especially brittle, and where I thought he had finished blowing coat, has become so dense I can barely get the comb through it, even when there aren’t any mats. If I use a wider tooth comb I can get it through but then I miss a lot of the little tiny pre-mat hair knots. I’m starting to work in smaller and smaller sections but it’s just so thick I lose my place. If all of the cottony, brittle hair is still going to fall out, we have a long way to go. 

There was a long enough break from hair loss i thought we had passed the peak at least. Then last week his stomach and chest started blowing like crazy. I was focused on keeping that area especially well combed and then yesterday I noticed he’s losing a lot from his back and neck again. 

I’ve neglected his feet for almost a week because he’s always tolerated them the least and grooming sessions have been so much longer. I’m sure I’ll regret that this weekend! 

Really, though, I can tough it out knowing it will pass and his coat won’t always look like this. I’m not his favorite person right now, though. I’ve gone back to keeping treats in my pocket to make up for harassing him!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

cishepard said:


> Now that a few weeks have gone by, how is your pups coat coming along?
> Bingo seems to be almost done with losing the puppy hairs on his back and hindquarters. Those were the ones looking dry and broken and they were 4-5" long. What I presume to be the new adult coat underneath is about 2" so far and definitely a different texture - not so fine and cottony but thicker, shinier and 'richer' is how I would describe it. I'm very pleased with it so far.
> I think his coat change is moving to his shoulders now as the very long hair there is starting to matt a bit and come out in the comb. Over all, it is a very interesting process!


I hope the same happens here! I have noticed the hair on his stomach and chest is soft but much more silky and not cottony at all. Since it's the shortest hair on his body, it's likely some of the newest and i'm hoping it's an indication of what his permanent coat might be like.


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## cishepard (Apr 8, 2018)

krandall said:


> BTW, I did check with my Shih Tzu friend but forgot to report back. She said that the Shih Tzu coat blowing is very similar to what we experience with Havanese!


Thanks for that! It's hit or miss what his final texture will be, but I am hoping he inherited all his coat genes from his Shih Tzu grandmother : )


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## cishepard (Apr 8, 2018)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I'm having trouble for sure, but I'm hanging in there!
> 
> The area on his back where it looks especially brittle, and where I thought he had finished blowing coat, has become so dense I can barely get the comb through it, even when there aren't any mats. If I use a wider tooth comb I can get it through but then I miss a lot of the little tiny pre-mat hair knots. I'm starting to work in smaller and smaller sections but it's just so thick I lose my place. If all of the cottony, brittle hair is still going to fall out, we have a long way to go.
> 
> ...


That _does_ sound like a lot of work - do you work on him daily? Do you have a table to make your life easier?
I bought one of those 'lazy susan" grooming tables to sit on top of my regular portable table - it helps to not have to constantly shift Bingo into new positions. I also have i neat little tray that clamps onto the arm to hold sprays, scissors etc. which you can sort of see in this photo.

All you can do is hang in there and dispense copious treats. Well, that or cut short (noooo!!!)

When I bathe Bingo (weekly), I've been using the small CC slicker on him while drying. It's a good tool for teasing shed hairs out of the coat, if used gently. Regular daily grooms are comb only.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

cishepard said:


> That _does_ sound like a lot of work - do you work on him daily? Do you have a table to make your life easier?
> I bought one of those 'lazy susan" grooming tables to sit on top of my regular portable table - it helps to not have to constantly shift Bingo into new positions. I also have i neat little tray that clamps onto the arm to hold sprays, scissors etc. which you can sort of see in this photo.
> 
> All you can do is hang in there and dispense copious treats. Well, that or cut short (noooo!!!)
> ...


I don't have a table, and I've been thinking about setting something up. It really wasn't even on my list at all, but lately he's just tired of being groomed and he sort of rolls away or hides his face. On the other hand, I'm not going to restrain him or anything, so other than giving me better ease of access I don't know how much it would help.

I really want to be grooming twice a day but lately it takes every spare moment just to get once a day finished. Now that we're headed into the crazy schedule of the holidays I don't see that happening. I have been completely grooming with a comb and spray once a day and then doing quick brushes with a wood pin brush whenever I can.

I noticed the other day the CC slicker brush is actually less than I thought, so I might go ahead and buy it. The tines look fine and I know I need something very fine right now. I swear the ultra fine comb I wanted isn't even on the CC website anymore. Maybe I imagined it all along!


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## cishepard (Apr 8, 2018)

Being a retired groomer, I’m probably biased, but I find a dedicated table very helpful. It gives better access to all parts of the dog and gives you the option of adjusting the height of your table and stool for the most comfort. It makes the whole routine of “grooming time” clear to your dog, more serious, if you will, like “this is table time- - not negotiable”. I don’t use the arm and noose for Bingo, as he does not try to jump down and I never leave him unattended even for a moment. A table makes it less likely the dog will try to get away, but the arm is there if needed. 
I keep all of my tools in the tray or in a grooming box under the table so everything is handy and the whole setup has a permanent spot in the living room. It is a very light, portable table and I just pick the whole thing up and carry it into the kitchen for baths and blow drying (Bingo is small enough to fit in the sink).
I think you should spluge and treat yourself, after all there are many years of grooming ahead of you ... may as well make them as pleasant and convenient as possible : )

The table was a Christmas present to myself when I realized that Bingo was most likely drop coated:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

cishepard said:


> That _does_ sound like a lot of work - do you work on him daily? Do you have a table to make your life easier?
> I bought one of those 'lazy susan" grooming tables to sit on top of my regular portable table - it helps to not have to constantly shift Bingo into new positions. I also have i neat little tray that clamps onto the arm to hold sprays, scissors etc. which you can sort of see in this photo.
> 
> All you can do is hang in there and dispense copious treats. Well, that or cut short (noooo!!!)
> ...


Just wants to say (again, I think )... Bingo is WICKED cute!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I can't agree enough with a dedicated grooming place. I learned very early in Kodi's life that I needed some way to secure him when I needed to get at all parts of his body during grooming. It doesn't have to be fancy either... The first photo is what I had for Kodi for several years, and it worked great. But I have friends who use a non-slip pad and a grooming arm that attaches to the edge of their counter. Whatever works to secure the dog, be able to work around from various directions and give you both hands free. 

When Pixel was "on order", I wanted a more dedicated space for grooming two dogs. By then, one of my sons had moved out, so the spare bedroom became double-duty, spare bedroom and dog grooming central. Dave bought me a grooming table "combo" from Petedge... table, arm, stool and caddy for one price around Christmas time. (I don't see it right now, but keep your eye out, they seem to offer it intermittently. The manufacturer is Master Equipment) 

I can't tell you how nice it is to be able to SIT and groom my dogs! Panda doesn't need the grooming loop... she is extremely cooperative. For both Pixel and Kodi, things go much better with them in the loop!


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## cishepard (Apr 8, 2018)

krandall said:


> Just wants to say (again, I think )... Bingo is WICKED cute!!!


Thank you! Everytime I see someone post a photo or their puppy or young Havanese, I marvel at how much he looks like one : )
Which reminds me of a thread I keep thinking of starting ... stay tuned.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I do have a dedicated grooming place where I always brush/comb him, but it happens to be a chair we love to sit in together that is this sort of a microfiber chenille material. It catches any loose hair, but then it just rolls right off, so I don’t need to have a towel covering every square inch of it. The problem is it’s a little too big and cushy so he can sort of roll away or hide his face when he’s checked out. 

you know, I just realized I’ve been trying so hard to make grooming not a big deal and to get him to completely accept it that I think I may be trying to trick him into it a little too much. It might be good time while he’s needing extra attention to set up something a little more structured. I do actually have this table I could use. 

My parents gave it to me because I was always doing projects on our dining table and then I’d have to clear everything off for dinner. I’ve actually let him lay on it next to me while I’m working at it; it’s very stable, the legs and wheels lock, and the height is adjustable. With both sides down I think it would be just the right size. I’d have to use a loop, though, or he’d just move to the other side. Well, actually, I guess he wouldn’t because the grooming stuff would be there. 

What kind of pad would be best to use on multiple surfaces in case I end up using a different surface?


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

cishepard said:


> I bought one of those 'lazy susan" grooming tables to sit on top of my regular portable table - it helps to not have to constantly shift Bingo into new positions.


Where did you get the turntable piece?! I like that idea.


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## cishepard (Apr 8, 2018)

A rubber bathtub mat with suction cups works good. Nice table, but yeah, a way to keep him from wandering around it would be needed. A real grooming table should be as small as the dogs four feet can comfortably fit on, the idea being that if they move a foot it will go off the edge and that will stop them from moving too much!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

The picture of Bingo on the turntable is just so cute! And I can’t believe how tiny he looks modeling for the other grooming table! How little is he?


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

cishepard said:


> A rubber bathtub mat with suction cups works good. Nice table, but yeah, a way to keep him from wandering around it would be needed. A real grooming table should be as small as the dogs four feet can comfortably fit on, the idea being that if they move a foot it will go off the edge and that will stop them from moving too much!


It's just the right width but it would be better if it was 2/3 the length. I'll try it out since I already have it, but I'll wait until DH can help me. If it seems like the size is manageable I can look into setting up a loop with it.


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## cishepard (Apr 8, 2018)

In the Christmas picture he is just 3 months old (born Sept. 21, 2017). Right now at 13 months he is 5.5lbs. His sire is a 3 lb. Chihuahua.

Do you have any recent photos of yours? (looked over old threads for his name but can’t find it ...?)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I do have a dedicated grooming place where I always brush/comb him, but it happens to be a chair we love to sit in together that is this sort of a microfiber chenille material. It catches any loose hair, but then it just rolls right off, so I don't need to have a towel covering every square inch of it. The problem is it's a little too big and cushy so he can sort of roll away or hide his face when he's checked out.
> 
> you know, I just realized I've been trying so hard to make grooming not a big deal and to get him to completely accept it that I think I may be trying to trick him into it a little too much. It might be good time while he's needing extra attention to set up something a little more structured. I do actually have this table I could use.
> 
> ...


I use these:

https://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/st...bath-mat/3295239?keyword=memory-foam-bath-mat

They are cheap, very grippy on the back, launder easily, and I can just remove hair, even after trimming, by just running a fine toothed comb over the top.

I actually use these as crate pads too.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> It's just the right width but it would be better if it was 2/3 the length. I'll try it out since I already have it, but I'll wait until DH can help me. If it seems like the size is manageable I can look into setting up a loop with it.


You can get arms and loops either from Petedge or Amazon. They just use a screw clamp, so they can attach to just about anything with an edge. And they are easy to put away when not in use. While my house grooming table is set up all the time (with three dogs, it gets a LOT of use!!!) I have a folding "ringside" table and arm that I use in our RV. It spends most of its time folded up behind the couch, and I just set it up when I need it... sometimes inside, other times out under the awning.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

cishepard said:


> In the Christmas picture he is just 3 months old (born Sept. 21, 2017). Right now at 13 months he is 5.5lbs. His sire is a 3 lb. Chihuahua.
> 
> Do you have any recent photos of yours? (looked over old threads for his name but can't find it ...?)


Oh, he's a mini-mite!!! Cute as the dickens, but Havanese are almost never that small at a year. There's where his Chihuahua side shows!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

cishepard said:


> In the Christmas picture he is just 3 months old (born Sept. 21, 2017). Right now at 13 months he is 5.5lbs. His sire is a 3 lb. Chihuahua.
> 
> Do you have any recent photos of yours? (looked over old threads for his name but can't find it ...?)


That's because I always call him Puppy! Seriously, I only call him by his name when I tell him to "go potty" or "come here." Our whole family debated about his name for months and finally we all agreed to a name everyone could settle for 3 days after we brought him home: Sundance.

My kids upload photos to Instagram sometimes but they haven't very much since school started. It's sundancethewild, but I just looked and all of the photos on there are old, so I don't know what they've been doing. I don't use Instagram so they could have they're own accounts and I wouldn't even notice!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

A couple of photos testing out a new bed this morning. He’s been lounging in this spot in our bedroom a lot lately so we decided to give him a bed there.


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## cishepard (Apr 8, 2018)

Wow, he sure has a thick and wooly looking coat! I can see how it would be somewhat of a chore keeping up with, though it is shorter than I was picturing. Do you scissor him or is this his natural length from shedding puppy coat?


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

In the beginning I alternated between trimming him myself and taking him to be groomed. I kept him in a long puppy cut, around 4-5 inches with his face, chest, and stomach a little shorter. Then over the summer when he started blowing coat he matted really fast and had to be shaved (pretty long though) except for his head. He was trimmed by a groomer about two weeks ago and she did a pretty good job but his neck was still too long in proportion to the rest of his length. I hacked it down a bit yesterday, actually. His ears aren’t the shape I like but i don’t think I said the right name for what I wanted and I haven’t gotten around to trimming them. I meant to do it yesterday but it took a long time to trim his neck and I still didn’t finish blending it. 

He is definitely super thick right now, and his neck and back are pretty fuzzy. Mostly through the back of his neck. It’s so dense I have to use hair clips when I comb because it falls back and I can’t keep the sections apart. On Thursday night after his bath I couldn’t believe how much hair came out when I combed him because it had only been 12 hours or so since I brushed him. But since then it’s been just a few hairs here and there, even after trimming yesterday.


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