# Jealousy and Bullying



## CrazieJones (May 28, 2011)

I think Roshi started developing jealousy and bullying behaviour and I want to teach him I don't like it. Need advice on how.

Jealousy - or maybe 'guarding' me?
Before, when my hubby and I still lived 3 hrs away, we always greet each other with a hug when we see each other. Roshi would start leaping all over us and when we ignore him, he will start barking. We just ignore. Now that hubby is living with me, Roshi's like whatever.
However, he does not like it when I pet other dogs. At first, when we go to our small dog play dates, I would pet other dogs, and Roshi will just come over and try to 'budge' in. I usually just "arm" Roshi away and keep petting the other dog. This week, I was petting my neighbor's dog over the fence. Roshi was barking and and eventually went to chomp at the other dog's face. This was no small dog, he was like a boxer mix (I think). The other dog got pissed and almost chomped Roshi back.

Bullying (I think I'll call it that)
Lately, I noticed that when he's playing with another dog, and when another dog wants to join in, he growls. To me, it's like "Grr, I'm playing with him. Stay away." When he growls, I will pull him away and it's timeout. Not sure if this is the correct way of dealing with it. I just kept this method from puppy school when pups play too rough and you just pull them away for timeout.

With these new behaviour, Roshi will get hurt one day. For some odd reason, he just doesn't care if the other dog is a big dog or not. He still goes after them. I don't want him to get hurt and an unnecessary vet bill. Anyway to fix this?


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## Lisainidaho (Feb 1, 2012)

I was thinking about your question all day. First I will say I'm no expert, so take this for what it is worth.  Do you and Roshi practice any obedience commands? With my limited training experience, I found that establishing that I was the friendly but firm master cleared up guarding that my last dog (a Doberman) was doing on my behalf. I thought that obedience training was very effective for that.

He also did not like playing with other dogs. Or, maybe I should say I don't think he knew how to play with dogs. He would end up "bullying" them and then they didn't want to have anything to do with them. I put a lot of effort into this but he never did learn to like other dogs. He was 2 yrs old when I rescued him however, and I think it was just hardwired into him at this point.

I hope someone with more experience chimes in, but I noticed that no one replied and I wanted to at least let you know that I had some similar experiences. 

Roshi is so cute in his avatar picture, I can't believe he bullies anyone!


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## CrazieJones (May 28, 2011)

Lisainidaho said:


> Roshi is so cute in his avatar picture, I can't believe he bullies anyone!


Don't let that face fool you!

I'm not sure what you mean by obedience commands, but I do a lot of "sits", "get in", "stay", and "leave it". His "watch" and "down" is a little weak.

Roshi plays well, and he lures dogs to play. He will get to the 'down' position, and if the other dog doesn't respond to his play request, he will go onto his side or do a rollover. If still no respond, he will let out a light bark ... I guess in dog language it's "Hey, let's play". It's pretty cute.

He's only 'mean' when another dog wants to join in to play. I guess '3's a crowd' is true for Rosh... sigh.


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## Lisainidaho (Feb 1, 2012)

Yes, I guess I was thinking of stay, sit, down, etc. I was just thinking of commands that establish that communication between you and Roshi.

Sorry but I just don't have any definitive advice. The playing with only 1 dog is interesting though. Usually I've only seen dogs that will play with all dogs, or no dogs. 

I will say that I started private training lessons with my puppies yesterday. The trainer came to my house, and I was amazed at what I learned in only one lesson. The trainer came at the issues in a much different way than I would have thought. If you don't get an answer here, maybe contacting a trainer would help? If you find the right one they would watch Roshi in action and would be able to assess based on that.

It sounds very fixable, just typical curious dog behavior


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

good advice Lisa. General training helps all kinds of pushy behaviors. Jealousy is a funny topic. Some behaviorists don't believe in it to its' true definition but research is coming out that says that dogs are capable of true jealousy. Some aspects are more likely resource guarding . Anywho, I've always liked Jolanta's article. http://dogtrainer.quickanddirtytips.com/how-to-deal-with-jealous-dogs.aspx Although you only have one dog , much of it can still apply .


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## Kalico (Jan 11, 2012)

My lab will only play with one dog. He just cannot do groups (he's kind of like me ). He's not an assertive dog, though, so when another dog joins in he will usually stop playing and let the other dog "steal" his playmate. So it could be that this is normal behavior, or something that some dogs are prone to, just as some people are better one-on-one.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Zoey does the same thing although see has gotten better. I think with her it is more fear. If she gets to aggressive with a large dog I do what a mother dog does and grab her by the scuff of the neck and give a shake and say ah ah . I'm not hurting her. If she is doing that to a person I just say ah ah and introduce her to the person. 
I have only had about three encounters with dogs I don't know. What I think helps is classes with all kinds of dogs so its a controlled atmosphere and they can get used to being around other dogs and people.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Kalico said:


> My lab will only play with one dog. He just cannot do groups (he's kind of like me ). He's not an assertive dog, though, so when another dog joins in he will usually stop playing and let the other dog "steal" his playmate. So it could be that this is normal behavior, or something that some dogs are prone to, just as some people are better one-on-one.


Well said.


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Sounds like a tough one. Hanna does get "jealous" but fortunately I've been able to ignore her and turn further away from her. I've been concentrating on voice commands lately as she responds pretty well to my voice. She seems to get the "ah-ah" and overall has been calmer around dogs and people. Maturity seems to help a little. Hopefully you'll be able to find a solution

Grabbing and shaking a dog by the scruff could lead to the dog exhibiting defensive biting when being handled. For example, if the dog is now scared of your hands going to the neck, when you go to put a collar on or maybe pick the dog up in a tense situation, the dog can bite you. Put it this way, it's almost like if one of my 4 year old twins suddenly got jealous of the other because I'm paying attention to the other one, and so to "teach" the jealous twin not to get in the way I grab him by the shoulders and shake him! It seems like a silly analogy but I think it's similar. He would be hurt emotionally, physically, and would have lost trust in me.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Well my SIL brought his mix-breed rescue dog that adores Mark. That dog never leaves his side. He appears to be a rottie-lab mix, but could be pit bull-lab mix. Anyway Rosie did not like him in her house. She immediately started to dominate him and he just let her. I have found that balanced big dogs, just don't pay any attention to little dogs. Course one bite could have ended her life. I put a stop to her "bullying" really jealousy I think. I say "Hey" in a loud authorative voice and point my finger at her and that is all. Then I point to the other room and she goes. Rosie and I worked out our language together as I have with other dogs. Last week she didn't want to come in the house and I stood at the door and called and got no reaction--then I said in that voice she knows " get your a** in the house" and she ran in. She is just like my children and grands are. They had to be sure I meant a command before they obeyed. Really I am just saying that sit stay and all the other words are good, but a dog or child has to know you are in command. Now I know a lot of those on this forum don't agree with me, but it works for me. Rosie is not cowed in any way, and I have done most of her training without treats. However, I am now using pieces of meat to teach her to find me or find daddy. Course she follows the smell of the meat. I may never get her to find without meat, but that is the goal. I do let her protect me from the Rooster from Hell. The last time he got me and drew blood, she ran in between us and has everytime since. She growls and barks at him if he comes at me, but we both run when we get the chance. lol


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> good advice Lisa. General training helps all kinds of pushy behaviors. Jealousy is a funny topic. Some behaviorists don't believe in it to its' true definition but research is coming out that says that dogs are capable of true jealousy. Some aspects are more likely resource guarding . Anywho, I've always liked Jolanta's article. http://dogtrainer.quickanddirtytips.com/how-to-deal-with-jealous-dogs.aspx Although you only have one dog , much of it can still apply .


When you get right down to it, isn't jealousy in people a form of resource guarding?


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

krandall said:


> When you get right down to it, isn't jealousy in people a form of resource guarding?


 To a degree, but resource guarding in dogs generally doesn't involve a feeling of inequity. Studies have shown the fact that jealousy and envy in dogs is not quite as complex as it is in human beings.

It's thought that dogs likely experience a primitive form of envy. Resource guarding is a more primitive

reaction. The experiments that have been done saying they do experience jealously are often argued by others .

It's one of those grey areas. But a lot of behaviorists, and I'm talking CAAB /DACVB 's don't buy the idea

totally . Who knows , we're still learning. Decide for yourself, but here's a quote from Patricia

McConnell..."There is much more controversy and confusion over what are called the "secondary emotions" in

animals, which are generally argued to exist only in humans, and are believed to require complex cognitive

abilities often uniquely attributed to us, including self awareness and what's called "theory of mind." These

emotions, like jealousy, empathy, pride, guilt and shame can be further categorized as "self-conscious emotions"

like jealousy and "self-conscious evaluative emotions" like guilt and shame. The "evaluative" modifier refers to

the requirement that the experience of guilt or shame is based on evaluating a behavior against a rule or

standard that is understood by the individual experiencing it."

Not sure if that will prove anything but it is an interesting topic. LOL


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

When I was in school, I was taught that animals did not think. That they only had instinct. But as I grew older and watched my animals, dogs, cats, even goldfish and my calves, I began to realize that they did think. They just taught us farm children the instinct bit so we could slaughter them. Some dogs are not as smart as others, but all of them think on some level. Rosie not wanting my SIL's dog in her house may hve strictly been because she didn't want him to eat her food. (resource guarding) But then she gets real upset if I pick up Josie Wales and pet her and Rosie has never had a chance to get Josie's food. So obviously that has to be jealousy. And the thing that haunts me is the last calve that went to the slaughter house would not get on the trailer. I hope that it was not because he had seen others get on the trailer and not come back. It is really not a good thing to humanize our pets to much.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

For sure Lucile. Dogs are always thinking and experiencing emotions. It's just a case to what degree? Dogs are being studied, more and more, and we're still learning at what level they function. We've been wrong before as to what dogs were all about, and we could still be surprised as to what they're capable of.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

After i discarded the instinct theory, I began to work out the theory of genetic memory. It would be a lot easier for my DH and I to live off the land, build cabins, etc than it was for the first ones that tried it. I believe that our ancestors memories are passed on genetically. We just build on their knowledge. Before you think I am crazy, there are a lot of science backing me up. Wouldn't it be scary to think that our dogs pass on genetic memory? What am I thinking, if that were so, they would potty train themselves. lol. Sorry can't be serious for too long.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I asked my teacher her views on jealousy. LOL Here's her letter....

Hi Dave,

I believe that dogs don't have the cognitive ability to experience jealousy as humans do. That could also be said for a lot of emotions, especially the social emotions. 
Or indeed if they experience such complex cognitive phenomenon I certainly don't believe that they have the conscience/self-awareness to process or understand such emotions - and def not in a way that they will guide their actions, at a conscience level.

In my experience, for the most part, dogs who have been described as 'jealous' or be behaving 'jealously' are typically resource guarding, whether it be food, toys, sleeping area, a person or even another dog.
I also find that these behaviours are more likely to be seen when two dogs are present and competing for access to a resource in short supply especially their favourite person.

Jean Donaldson's book MINE! is worth the read if you want a better understanding of resource guarding and a variety of dog friendly protocols for dealing with it. It is a more advanced book though, not for the novice - but will be beneficial for you.
She doesn't really cover dog-dog guarding in it though but does a bit in her book FIGHT! which is also similarly laid out and structured. I also recommend that one for you Dave!

I have written about dog-dog resource guarding because it's a hard one to deal with plus I had 7 years of it with Rufus and it was the one issue that I felt we never made as much progress on. Got it to a more manageable level but was never able to really crack it - I got lazy and just managed the hell out of it rather than working on modification to any great extent :-( There were so many other things that needed more urgent work with him though but I always wished I had done more on it.
Here is link to part 1: http://pawsitivedawgs.wordpress.com/2011/05/02/dogdogresourceguarding1/ ; there are three part altogether.

From a modification point of view I don't think its enormously helpful to ponder on the cognitive stuff - train the dog (and behaviour) in front of you! This may be why its not written about extensively but I'm pretty confident that if you speak to most qual'd and reputable training/behaviour people they will rubbish the jealousy consideration in behaviour modification.

Hope that helps and hope you are well!

Wags and Woofs,
Anne Rogers


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Luciledodd said:


> After i discarded the instinct theory, I began to work out the theory of genetic memory. It would be a lot easier for my DH and I to live off the land, build cabins, etc than it was for the first ones that tried it. I believe that our ancestors memories are passed on genetically. We just build on their knowledge. Before you think I am crazy, there are a lot of science backing me up. Wouldn't it be scary to think that our dogs pass on genetic memory? What am I thinking, if that were so, they would potty train themselves. lol. Sorry can't be serious for too long.


You're right Lucile, it really is not that important to take everything seriously. Like Anne says the important thing is to train the dog that's in front of you.


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## CrazieJones (May 28, 2011)

OK... so how does all this help my little Roshi?

I think he's socialized, and I try to keep him socialized. He does invite dogs to play ... but he just wants his one-on-one play. 

Although I don't pet other dogs often, his barking and snapping should not be tolerated.

He goes to daycare twice a week. No bad behaviour reported.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

I give over to others with the same problem and that have found out how to handle.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

CrazieJones said:


> OK... so how does all this help my little Roshi?
> 
> I think he's socialized, and I try to keep him socialized. He does invite dogs to play ... but he just wants his one-on-one play.
> 
> ...


This tells me that possibly you are doing something when he growls at the other dog. Dogs will behave more socially when off leash. And that could be part of the problem. When you meet another dog ,is he on leash.?


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## CrazieJones (May 28, 2011)

davetgabby said:


> This tells me that possibly you are doing something when he growls at the other dog. Dogs will behave more socially when off leash. And that could be part of the problem. When you meet another dog ,is he on leash.?


He's off leash. It happens in the yard, dog park, or during a play time at a small dog play group.

However, it also happened once when he was on leash during our walk. He was sniffing a dog who ran out of a house. The owner came out to grab his dog, and Roshi let out a growl.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

CrazieJones said:


> He's off leash. It happens in the yard, dog park, or during a play time at a small dog play group.
> 
> However, it also happened once when he was on leash during our walk. He was sniffing a dog who ran out of a house. The owner came out to grab his dog, and Roshi let out a growl.


 Casie, you could simply do some classical conditioning, when he meets other dogs. At the instant he sees another dog give him a tasty treat, keep doing this over and over. But it has to happen the instant he sees another dog, before he gets over anxious. See if this works. you've described an unusual case. I can't figure why he is good at daycare. Something tells me it's something about you. Possibly guarding.


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