# New Havanese owner needs reassurance



## kaydm

Hi, I have been reading this site for awhile waiting to find my Havanese. Well, I got her today. 

She is 2 1/2 years old and came from a breeder who said she made it quite clear she did not want to be a mom. Apparently she teased the males and then at the critical moment, would roll onto her back and wave her feet in the air, thus making it all impossible for the male dog.

Anyway, she is here next to me. My problem is she will stay exactly where I put her. She won't walk around outside or inside. She won't eat or drink. She did pee once about 3 hours ago when I brought her home.

Supposedly she is not housebroken and she was supposed to be socialized by owner's children. I was told she is shy and takes awhile to warm up to strangers. Quite un - Hav - like, right? She does not seem to know her name. 

She is adorable, white with black ears and some black spots on her back.

I think she was traumatized by the 2 1/2 hour car ride here. She vomited in the car in her crate on the way.

Do I just keep talking to her and keep watching her to see if she needs to go outside? Please talk to me.


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## Kathie

I learned a lot of things the hard way. One is not to give her run of the house. Another is to let her come to you first. When they are shy that is the best way to go. We got our Abby when she was eight months old and she was traumatized by the plane trip. It will take a lot of patience but she should eventually come around. I would start from scratch with the potty training by taking her out on a leash every two - three hours. I'm certainly not an expert so I hope some others will jump in here. As I said it will take time but it will be well worth it in the end. Good luck with your little girl!


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## virtualet

i think that the way that you're describing your dog is very normal. the first day or 2 are usually pretty tough on the dog. let your dog come to you, don't baby her, and eventually she'll get more outgoing. this is all a shock to her right now, so just give her some space and she'll warm up to you.

she won't respond to things like her name right away because she is scared, but that'll come in time. probably a week or so. don't fret. this is all normal =) it just seems like first day jitters.


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## Missy

Welcome to the forum. See what happens tomorrow. It has been a big day for her. Many Havs are sensitive and take a while with new situations. Encourage her with love and treats. Try to let her come to you on her own terms. And just try to keep things upbeat. 

Are you going to crate her? If so place her crate tonight by your bed so she can see and hear you. 

Keep us posted. I am sure she will come out of her shell in no time. And, I think I can speak for everyone here...Pictures Please. What is her name?


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## Milo's Mom

Take a deep breath and relax. Every day will get easier. I agree with the advice everyone has given you. Let her come to you on her own terms. Give her lots of love. Treat her like a puppy when it comes to housebreaking. Bring her outside as often as you can. Do you have an ex-pen or crate for her? I definitely wouldn't give her free access to the whole house. The more relaxed you are the more relaxed she'll be.


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## Jill in Mich

WELCOME and CONGRATULATIONS!!! It'll be okay. Give her some time. Since she's not a pup it may take more than a day or two to not be quite so shell-shocked but be patient and don't give up. She'll come around. When I first got Tess I couldn't get near her, so I left a leash on her around the clock (except when you're crating her, if that's what you're doing - you don't want the leash/collar to get caught on the crate) so I could catch her with minimal stress on either of us when it was time to go out. Along with trying to catch her when you think she needs to go out, set yourself on a set schedule for a while - go outside every 1/2 hour, then 45 min, etc. Try to have a few very low key days with minimal noise/excitement (if that's possible in your house). Make your movements as slow as possible and let her take things at her own speed. Try to be aware of you're own emotions - breath deeply when you need to and try to relax. It will be okay. This will work out just fine. It may not be the homecoming you had imagined but many of us have been in your shoes, wondering what in the world we've gotten ourselves in to - you'll both get to the other side! GOOD LUCK! Feel free to ask any questions and come back for reassurance whenever you need it.


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## kaydm

Thanks so much for all your replies. Her name is Maggie. When I can figure out how to do pictures here, I will. I will put her by my bed tonite. I hope she will be hungry tomorrow. She sniffed at treats tonite, but did not eat one.

I knew I wanted a Havanese after meeting the one next door. I was smitten. I have looked for over 5 months for an adult female as that is what is next door. I know when my neighbor and her little girl return in a couple weeks from their summer lake home in Minnesota, that I will get some good advice. But tonite I may be as overwhelmed as Maggie. 

Right now she just dropped off to sleep at me feet. Progress, yes?


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## Jill in Mich

kaydm said:


> Thanks so much for all your replies. Her name is Maggie. When I can figure out how to do pictures here, I will. I will put her by my bed tonite. I hope she will be hungry tomorrow. She sniffed at treats tonite, but did not eat one.
> 
> I knew I wanted a Havanese after meeting the one next door. I was smitten. I have looked for over 5 months for an adult female as that is what is next door. I know when my neighbor and her little girl return in a couple weeks from their summer lake home in Minnesota, that I will get some good advice. But tonite I may be as overwhelmed as Maggie.
> 
> Right now she just dropped off to sleep at me feet. Progress, yes?


Yep, progress. Imagine all of this from her perspective. I wouldn't be up to eating or exploring and definitely not interacting with a stranger. Hope your night goes okay. Tomorrow's a whole new day!  GOOD LUCK!


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## Lynn

kaydm said:


> Thanks so much for all your replies. Her name is Maggie. When I can figure out how to do pictures here, I will. I will put her by my bed tonite. I hope she will be hungry tomorrow. She sniffed at treats tonite, but did not eat one.
> 
> I knew I wanted a Havanese after meeting the one next door. I was smitten. I have looked for over 5 months for an adult female as that is what is next door. I know when my neighbor and her little girl return in a couple weeks from their summer lake home in Minnesota, that I will get some good advice. But tonite I may be as overwhelmed as Maggie.
> 
> Right now she just dropped off to sleep at me feet. Progress, yes?


I bet she would eat a little boiled chicken. She is just scared and shocked, she will soon be your love and best friend, just give it time.


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## marb42

Welcome to the forum! You have received great advice. Don't worry - everything will get better. It's her first day, and she's scared and overwhelmed (and like you said traumatized by the car ride). Just giver her time, and it will all get better. We'll all be here to help so let us know how she's doing.
Gina


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## Drew"s Mom

I have no advice for you but wanted to wish you well with your new little girl.


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## bethanay66

Welcome to Maggie and her mom! I remember when we brought Mickey home, he went straight into his crate and wouldn't come out. But by the next day, he was sticking his nose out, then sniffing everything, then running around the house in typical Hav style. Maggie sounds like a beautiful girl. Just be calm and patient and you'll have a new best friend before you know it! Keep us up to date!


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## HavaneseSoon

Welcome to the forum. It will get easier. Can't wait to see the pictures! Looking forward to lots of questions.


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## murphymoesmamma

Welcome to you and Maggie! You will be amazed at the Maggie you will see a month from now. I love animals but I will never have a dog that isn't a neezer.


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## kaydm

Good morning, all. Well, this morning she ate all her food.

Since she will not be led by leash, I pick her up and take her outside. This morning I tried something different. I opened the kitchen door as well as the porch door to the outside. I left her by her bowls and went into the livingroom to pick up my knitting. After about 15 minutes, I looked and she was outside. Yay, she CAN walk after all. I went out into the yard on about 30 feet away and pulled weeds, watching her out of the corner of my eye. She peed. Yay, again.

Since the grass is all dewey, I picked her up and brought her in and wiped her feet and legs. All that time she shook. So, I parked her on a thick towel by her bowls in the kitchen and am now in another room.

It feels like it could be a loooong wait before she comes to me.


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## Alexa

Welcome to the forum! It sounds like your situation is closer to dealing with a "rescue" dog than a well socialized dog from a breeder, so only time and patience will help. I think you are doing the right thing by giving her space and lots of love and hopefully she will come around to see that things aren't as scary as they may seem. The good thing is that we have many happy stories on this board where older dogs have come into someone's home and things worked out well. Depending on how she grew up, her personality may always be different than the other Havs you have seen, so try not to expect her to be a certain way. Were there a lot of other dogs at the breeder's house, too? She may feel somewhat lost and confused without all her canine buddies.

Photos, please!!

Alexa


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## kaydm

Thanks for your post, Alexa. When I talked with the breeder, she said the dogs lived in a separate building with each dog having a warmed/cooled living space with a crate as well. Each dog could go at will out into a grassy pen.

On the website, she has pictures and names of her 3 pairs of Havanese, and 3 pairs of Silky Terriers. I have been looking at her website for over 5 months and so far, she has had only one upcoming Hav litter to report.

So, Maggie and I were back out in the yard when a big dog 2 houses away started barking. He could not be seen thru the wood fence. Each time the big dog barked, Maggie moved closed to me til she was sitting at my feet. I took advantage of that. The next time the dog barked, I headed for the 3 season porch. Maggie followed me!! 

I will be patient as I think that was a big deal!


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## Missy

I am glad Alexa posted that too, I was afraid to mention it. But it does sound like you took her out of a situation. In no time she is going to be counting her lucky stars that you found her. And she is going to get to be a happy hav. It may take time and patience, but I have heard the unconditional love of those that come from bad situations is unmatched. I am glad you found each other. I truly believe we find the dogs we were meant to own. My boys are hardly your average Havanese...Especially my first. But I have no doubt that Jasper in Cash were meant to be our dogs. And Maggie is meant to be your Neezer.


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## Jammies

*Welcome to the forum to you and your Maggie! It sounds like she is warming up to you already and it's only been a day! How did bedtime go last night?

:welcome:*


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## kaydm

Well, Jammies, last night she fell asleep at my feet while I was on the computer. So I picked her up and woke her up and took her outside to pee. Then because I do not have a crate yet, I put her in the little dog bed a friend brought over for her. It was near me. I got up in the night and she was still there. Same this am. Not a peep out of her.

I do need a crate for her as I think she was used to that at night.


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## kaydm

Oh my gosh. Maggie has a voice after all. She heard some dogs barking in the neighborhood somewhere and let out with bark, bark, baaaaarrrkkk. Not quite a howl but close. The Havanese next door has cute little short, happy barks only when she sees her favorite person, the mailman who gives her treat.

What does Maggie's almost howl mean?


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## Annie Clark

I know Nala has a wide variety of barks! Nala shook a lot when I first got her and it took a while for her to settle in. Now she is very cuddly and firiendly.

Annie


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## kaydm

Annie, shaking is exactly what she does when I come near her. Trying to keep a good distance is sometimes hard. 

Well, after I brought her inside, she did do what I'd call a howl. Wonder if that means she's missing all she was familiar with?


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## davetgabby

sounds like you are making some progress already. Just take everything slow ,until you gain her trust. A trainer would be a big help. But here is a good article for you for adopting an older dog. http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/adopting-adult-dog Do all you feeding by hand ,get rid of the food bowl for now.


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang

First, :welcome: to the forum!

Maggie may be missing her fur pals a little, but she could also just be vocalizing with the nearby dogs. Either way, she seems to be loosening up a bit and that's a good thing! 

If you're able, try sitting on the floor with her in the room. Pretend to ignore her while watching TV or reading a book, something quiet and still. See if she works her way to you. If she does, gently place a treat down for her and praise her quietly. Keep doing this throughout the day/evening and see if she doesn't come to you a little quicker. Placing yourself on the floor makes you 'smaller' and less intimidating. 

Definitely don't let her have free run of the house yet. It's too easy for her to make a mistake and potty indoors, and you don't want to set her up to fail. 

Good luck and take heart! Pepper came to us at about a year old. He was so nervous that for the first three days he pretty much hid under one of my end tables whenever I had him loose in the room with me. It took about a week for him to really start coming out of his shell and now, two years later, he's the boss of the pack! Your Maggie will get there with love and patience.


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## DAJsMom

Sounds like you are doing fine with Maggie. Just be really patient. We got both of our girls as older pups. It takes a while for them to adjust, but it does happen. She's already finding out that your house is very different from where she was before, and that is a good thing!


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## bethanay66

I was happy to read that Maggie is making progress! I wanted to comment on the "howl" that you described. The two I have now are the only Hav's I have been exposed to, and my boy Mickey has never howled. But that is the girl Maddy's preferred method of letting us know that she wants attention. Her little nose goes up into the air and she just howls like a wolf. Of course her little voice doesn't count for much, and we have come to love that squeaky howl. I hope this is a good sign for Maggie!


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## kaydm

Bethaney, Maggies's nose goes straight up and her head goes back and her howl is healthy, let me say. The reason the breeder sold her is that she would not allow herself to be bred, I was told. Maybe the reason for her loud howl is she has too much testosterone for a girl dog. lol


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## kaydm

Night 2 last night Maggie spent in crate. Not a peep out of her. I slept 7 hours straight through and she was quiet. She likes being in the yard sitting or lying at the gate watching the street which is quite a distance away.

Three times today she let out her howl. Each time I did a very growly no which stopped her each time. I just think she misses everything she ever knew.

I'm doing a search soon for a trainer to come to my house. I am so distressed that I was told this dog was leash trained, when it is obvious she was not. My friends and I think she did not have much exposure to people either. So my goals are pretty simple, housetraining, leash training, and stop cringing when she sees people. Is this ok for goals for now?


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## Missy

These are perfect goals. Your instincts with Maggie sound right on. My Cash has a huge voice on him a big howl at things he wants to warn...Wuh, wuh, Wooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhh. I have only heard Jasper howl twice when he was a puppy both times are when I had just come home after leaving him alone for a few hours and had to leave him in his room while I went to the bathroom. It was such a sad mournful, full moon type howl it broke my heart. Arrwoooooohhhhhhhh. Once. But I have not heard him howl like this since he was 5 months old. 

Is Maggies howl at things or just out of the blue?


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## kaydm

Missy, Jasper's Arrwoooooohhhhhhhh is exactly what Maggie does. It is never at anything. She will be lying quietly and then sit up and let loose. I'm glad she stops at my growly no.

Kay


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## SMARTY

Welcome to the Forum. It will take time to have Maggie totally trust you. Her reactions seem more like she was raised in a puppy mill environment. Our Galen is a small mill rescue. I met the mill owner, everything seemed very normal but the dogs I picked up had very little social skills. They had spent their lives in crates and small runs. As long as they were in their crates everything was fine. After 4 months we still have some small issues with Galen, if we reach down to pick her up she will pee, unless we let her come to us first. She still does not go up or down our stairs and that is ok as we live mostly on the main level. She has started to venture a little further in the yard on her own. She has a tendency to cower at different times, but is getting over that a little everyday. 

From day one she loved Smarty and was very playful with her. She is very affectionate to us, but needs a little time with strangers. We go to the park for walks and I have seen a major difference with her confidence there. 

My only advice is to let her walk you at first on the leash or let her drag a very short leash until she gets used to it. Giving them the time and love to build their confidence to do what is normal for a free dog is all they need. Good luck and keep us posted.


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## Missy

Awwww. Poor Maggie. But Maggie is in a better place now Kay and she in no time is going to thanking her lucky stars that you rescued her from life in a cage.

OK do this with caution cause it goes against everything they tell you to do with a dog because it makes them dominant... But Jasper was also a little reserved (we say he was 2000 dollar rescue) and to bring him out of his shell we played with him with a hand puppet. we would let him wrestle with our hand like he would a dog. we would stop and say NO when he got to rough. But it did get him to engage with us... you could also get another Havanese....LOL.

this was the handpuppet we used...Cash adopted it as his the minute he came into our house. It is his security blanket.

http://www.kidsbooksandpuppets.com/Folkmanis/folkmanisgraysquirrelpuppets.html


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## Jill in Mich

kaydm said:


> Night 2 last night Maggie spent in crate. Not a peep out of her. I slept 7 hours straight through and she was quiet. She likes being in the yard sitting or lying at the gate watching the street which is quite a distance away.
> 
> Three times today she let out her howl. Each time I did a very growly no which stopped her each time. I just think she misses everything she ever knew.
> 
> I'm doing a search soon for a trainer to come to my house. I am so distressed that I was told this dog was leash trained, when it is obvious she was not. My friends and I think she did not have much exposure to people either. So my goals are pretty simple, housetraining, leash training, and stop cringing when she sees people. Is this ok for goals for now?


These are great goals to start with. You will find yourself taking great pride in Maggie's small steps because you know how hard she had to work to achieve them.

Tess didn't know how to walk on a leash either. If you have any friends with dogs see if you can go on a short walk with them. If Maggie is like Tess, your friend and their dog will need to walk ahead of you. This let Tess see what was expected while not intimidating her by having to be too close to another dog. Like everything else, just take it slow. I found daily walks really helped with Tess' confidence.

In terms of being afraid of people. I carried treats with me and every time we met up with a stranger I had the stranger give her a treat. She came to see people as all treat givers.

Maggie may never be a social butterfly but I'll bet she can reach a point where she adores you and enjoys her life.


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## Annie Clark

Your experience with Maggie sounds so familiar to my early time with Nala. She was so scared of everything on our walks. I used to walk her at 6 am so she could get to know the town and the streets before there was traffic and lots of people or dogs around. Now she is a perfect walker.

Carrying treats around is a really good strategy. One day it just clicked for Nala that everyone wants to pet her and give her treats. She is still cautious but will approach people now. I took her to a meeting and at lunch she ignored me and went to visit different people for belly rubs. I can tell you I never thought that would happen! It's been almost a year since I got Nala (also at age 2 1/2 ).

I have gotten used to saying, "My dog is shy" when she meets people and sometimes now they look at me and say , "She doesn't seem shy!" as Nala jumps on their leg and nudges their hand for pets!

Good luck! Enjoy getting to know your dog. Keep us posted. 

I have had a lot of help from Ian Dunbar's books. He has great techniques for desentizing scared dogs and having puppy parties!

Annie


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## kaydm

Good morning all. Yesterday I spent the day deciding if I was up to driving since my carotid artery surgery on Aug 13th. Also, spent the better part of the day trying to understand what my dog Maggie's life must have been like up til I met her last Friday.

I am just sick with thinking she was crated, fed, ignored except to attempt breeding.
I now believe the dog was drugged to bring her to me. I am so angry about that. The clues are that Friday evening she would not walk. Where ever I placed her, she stayed parked, but shook if I approached her. She did not resist being picked up. Less so Saturday. By Sunday she was howling like a wolf. Monday she ran all over the yard loooking for an escape. She spends her time at the fence gate watching the street and howling. She will stop howling when I look at her and say no. I am now saying no very quietly. She only stops out of fear, I think.

I am angry that this beautiful dog was treated this way. I am angry that the owner lied to me about Maggie being socialized by children and about her being leash trained. 

I am angry that I must trick her to catch her at night to place her in her crate. Thankfully, she calms right down in the crate. I am angry about that too, as that is apparently all she every knew.

My heart aches for this little creature who deserves to live without fear and emotional pain. 

I just love her so much and now I'm crying because I so want to help her.

Please tell me what I can do. Thank you. Kay


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## Milo's Mom

Kay,

I think you're doing all the right things for Maggie. It sounds like she was never socialized or loved - poor baby. You have to give her time to adjust to you and her new life. It takes time to get over fear and anxiety. Just keep loving her. She's so lucky to have you!

Joyce


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## Jammies

*Kay, I think Maggie is very lucky to have a mom like you! I'm sure with lots of love and time, she will grow to love you just like you love her. I can't even imagine what her life was like before you rescued her, but thankfully you did. She was put in your life for a reason. I think we learn from each other. We learn how to love unconditionally. I have no advice, except keep on loving her and perhaps she will feel that. I think getting a trainer is a great idea. Keep up the good work and keep us posted. You and Maggie are in my prayers.

Debbie* :hug:


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## kaydm

Thank you for replies. Now that my good cry of this morning is over, I am concentrating on my mantra for hard times. It is "There is always a solution." That comforts me because I know everything is a process, I just need to trust the process. 

That, and I have been talking with dog trainers this morning. There is hope, I believe, that Maggie will not live a fearful life forever. 

I just love that this forum is here. Kay


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## kaydm

Great news. I baked a chicken this noon and I remembered reading here that Havs like chicken. I cut up into tiny pieces about a quarter cup and put in plastic baggy. I took Maggie's leash and gave her a bit to eat. She would not eat out of my hand so I dropped it in front of her. She loved it. So I said, Maggie we are going for a walk. She so balked at first. Every few steps I gave her chicken. We spend 50 minutes in the yard back and forth. She ate a lot of chicken but SHE WALKED WITH ME. I am so happy. 

Now she's out there snuffling around for the bits she missed. lol. 

I feel so good now.


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## Milo's Mom

Excellent news! Congrats!


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## kaydm

Oh Joyce, my emotions have been down and up today. Now I'm feeling more confident that this beautiful girl will have a great life without fear. So I'll probably be buying lots of chicken. It worked. She never shook once. I swear I saw a smile on her face. Yay Kay


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## Kathie

Yay! Every bit of good news is a cause for celebration! Just remember the ups when you're having a down......lol


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## Leeann

kaydm said:


> Great news. I baked a chicken this noon and I remembered reading here that Havs like chicken. I cut up into tiny pieces about a quarter cup and put in plastic baggy. I took Maggie's leash and gave her a bit to eat. She would not eat out of my hand so I dropped it in front of her. She loved it. So I said, Maggie we are going for a walk. She so balked at first. Every few steps I gave her chicken. We spend 50 minutes in the yard back and forth. She ate a lot of chicken but SHE WALKED WITH ME. I am so happy.
> 
> Now she's out there snuffling around for the bits she missed. lol.
> 
> I feel so good now.


I am coming in on this late but this post brought tears to my eye's what a good mommy to have the patients to work with this scared little girl. Keep up the good work and I know you will be reward with kisses eventually.


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## kaydm

More great news. Earlier today I talked by phone with the Behavior Specialist at Animal Rescue League. She was so great. She recommended a trainer based on what I told her. Of all the trainers I talked with today, I liked him best. He has 2 toddlers and 2 boxers at home. He is familiar with Havanese. Also, he volunteers at the Animal Rescue League, working with the dogs. Is that great or what?

He is coming this Saturday morning. What an emotional day of lows and now highs. Thank you to all who suggested a trainer. 

My dog deserves to live a life free of fear. That's what I want for her. Kay


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## Milo's Mom

Would love to see some pictures of Maggie!


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## HavaneseSoon

I am so glad you are making some progress. You are doing wonderful! And your Hav will love you even more because now she knows where the chicken comes from!

Hang in there! Patience.


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## marb42

Kay, I am so happy to hear about your progress with Maggie. She is so lucky that you rescued her and have been such a good mom to her. You have discovered the magic of chicken, and everything is going to get better and better. I can't wait to hear about your experience with the trainer - sounds like you found the perfect one.
Gina


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## Jill in Mich

What great news Kay, you're already making great progress. You and Maggie are going to do just fine. Good luck with the trainer, hopefully he'll give you some great tools to help Maggie but you're already well on your way to introducing Maggie to the life a dog should have. Keep up the good work and don't get discouraged.


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## kaydm

Oh you guys are so great. I am so glad this forum is here. As to pictures, I need to find time to read how to post a pic. Maggie is mostly white with black ears and a sprinkling of small black dots along her spine. Her tail is magnificent if I do say so. Kay


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## kaydm

ok so now I have 2 pics in an album. Now what? Help, please. Kay


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## kaydm




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## Milo's Mom

Maggie is just adorable! I can see why you just love her!


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## Annie Clark

Love the photo! She is looking happy to me!


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## herrick51

Kay - what a beautiful little girl - she is so, so lucky to have found the love she deserves with you - and I will echo the belief that you will get much love in return as she becomes more secure - good luck with the trainer, and licks and kisses for both of you from Brody!


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## Chere

Maggie is very cute and you are doing wonderfully with her. We have two rescued Havanese and their behaviors were very much like what you describe with Maggie. Both would pee if we reached for them but that seems completely gone now (we have had them 10 months). We got them used to the leash (although the foster parents did some leash work with them also) by putting the leash on them and letting them drag it around. Now when they see me with the leash, they roll over for me to put it on.

Treats helped us a lot. At first they would not take treats from our hands so we sat on the floor, not looking at them, and put treats near us. Got the treats closer and closer until now they come to us for treats!

We allow our dogs on the bed and that helped us a ton with socializing them to us; they were more comfortable with us prone, if we were sitting on a chair or standing up they were much more afraid. So try getting on Maggie's level with treats in hand.

You are doing super good work with Maggie and she and you are going to have a wonderful life together.


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## kaydm

Thanks for yur story Chere. I will try the treat technique.

My mailman has Corgis and just loves dogs. He met Maggie this morning, offering her a dog treat. She promptly barked once at him and ran away. Well, the bark at a person is new.

It has rained here for 2 days. I have been picking Maggie up, placing her on cushioned chair on the 3 season porch, and toweling her off. She is passively still for this. No barking or biting or struggling. 

I have a vet appointment Friday afternoon. My next big adventure will be to bathe the dog stink off her before then. Wish me luck as I have never bathed anything larger than a cat and that was an adventure. Any advice will be appreciated. Kay


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## Beamer

Welcome to the forum! I just now read this thread as I was in Chicago when it all started.. Maggie is lucky to have you!!

Ryan


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## HavaneseSoon

Be prepared to get wet! 

I bathe Dexter in the kitchen sink, I put a small hand towel at the bottom of the sink and use the hand sprayer to wet and rinse, always having one hand on the pup. 

When you think you have rinsed enough after the bath, rinse again at least 2 more times.


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## kaydm

Thanks for your post. I had already decided it would be good to have a towel in the sink. My kitchen sinks are deep and the sprayer definitely will be helpful

What do use for shampoo? And do you use a hairdryer after towel drying? Kay


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## HavaneseSoon

I would use a towel as much as you can to dry off the dog. Is her hair still short? Is she use to hearing the dryer?


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## HavaneseSoon

In the beginning when I first had Dexter, I just used a good quality dog shampoo to bathe with that came from pet store.


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## kaydm

Maggie came to me with short hair except for her tail and head hair. I don't know if a dryer has ever been used on this dog. Will towel drying be sufficient if it's a sunny warm day tomorrow morning?


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## HavaneseSoon

Have you been drying your hair with the dryer? If so, Maggie is probably use to hearing the dryer. 

I dry Dexter on top of my washing machine with a rug protecting the washer. I have Dexter leashed to a shelf hanger above then I have the dryer hanging down and I am contstantly touching Dexter to keep him turned and fluffing the hair to dry faster. 

And by touching Dexter all the time, I can tell if the dryer is too hot. I set the dryer on warm and by the time it gets to Dexter, the air is lightly warmed. 

I would not put your dog outside after a bath until he was dried. She might roll around in the grass or dirt. 

When I am drying Dexter, I only dry Dexter about 80% dried. I do make sure the ears are dried, they seem to take forever to dry. I am going to try the tip I read about drying the ears and that is .....use a paper towel to get as much as the wetness from the ears.


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## Jill in Mich

For as skittish as Maggie is, I don't think I'd try to use a blow dryer the first time around. If/when you do, only use it for a couple of minutes on the lowest setting possible. More than likely she'll be afraid of it. Work up to using a dryer to dry her completely. She may come to really enjoy being dried and brushed but that may take a while. It won't hurt her to air dry. More than likely she'll shake quite a bit after you've bathed her. If you can, wrap her in a towel and hold her. It's good bonding and she'll warm up. If she won't let you hold her try leaving a blanket on the floor - she may bury herself in it. Another thing to expect is for her to run around like a crazy dog (also know as RLH - run like h***) right after you've bathed her. She may not do that yet but many of our dogs do. Tess didn't do it when she first came here but does now.


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## krandall

Jill in Mich said:


> If you can, wrap her in a towel and hold her. It's good bonding and she'll warm up.


Kodi actually loves the dryer. But his hair is getting long, and it goes quicker if I get him a dry as possible first with towels. I first use a chamois cloth to squeeze as much water out of his coat as possible (thank you, Pam King!) then I wrap him up in a couple of thick towels, and sit with him in my lap. He LOVES that part... he usually falls asleep in my arms... I love it too.


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## kaydm

Thank you for the great advice on giving Maggie a bath.

The greatest thing just happened. I did not have to trick Maggie to catch her to put her in her crate for the night. I thought I'd let her settle down after getting her inside for the night before catching her. I just walked out to catch her, and found her already inside her crate. wow 

She did not eat anything today. She last ate a little of her regular food last evening. I gave her a little chicken treat after that. I think she's holding out for more chicken. I hope she will be hungry tomorrow. Kay


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## bethanay66

kaydm said:


> I did not have to trick Maggie to catch Kay


Ahhh, now that is progress! Glad to hear it!


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## kaydm

Well, yesterday and today had several firsts. Yesterday evening, Maggie came in the house and went to her crate by herself. Yay Late morning today she did the same thing when she decided to get a nap.

We had an appointment late afternoon for a Vet visit. She so needed to be bathed. So, I went and bought shampoo and a rubber mat for the kitchen sink. She absolutely hated it, but I'm bigger. Almost her entire bath was spent with her on her hind legs and her front paws on my chest. Well, I smelled good afterwards.

The Vet pronounced her in very good health. I think that's when I finally exhaled. After she settles in here more in the coming few weeks, I will get her spayed.

Kay


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## Alexa

I am so happy to hear about the progress Maggie is making and can't tell you enough how much I cherish your commitment to her. 
Lots of babysteps will get you to your goal!
Alexa


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## HavaneseSoon

Oh! I forgot to tell you...............Dexter likes to put his front paws on the sink divider. The first few times I bathed Dexter, I stayed very close to him while bathing.....Yea...I got wet!

Great news for you with the Vet!

Oh! What did Maggie dislike about the bath?


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## fibtaylo

This is such a heartwarming thread. The commitment that you have made to Maggie is so wonderful. You are a good person Kay!

We adopted 2 sisters from the same litter, but 7 weeks apart so Cali was 4 months old. Based on Cali's behavior, we think that 7 weeks (she was shuffled between 2 breeders) were really hard on her, so we consider her our rescue dog. Slow and easy, exactly the way you are doing it is what has worked best for Cali. Having had Cali now for 6 months, we have been so exicted the last couple weeks because she will now come lay down beside you for a belly rub!!! Huge step for her. 

Keep us posted on her progress and good luck with the trainer.


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## Mraymo

Welcome Kay and Maggie. I'm just seeing this thread now. It's great to read the baby steps Maggie has made since you brought her home. I'm looking forward to reading about her progress. I bet a year from now you'll love to have this thread to go back to and have record of all the growth you've both made.


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## Jill in Mich

Good news at the vet! Both of mine stand on their hind legs with their front paws on the sink rim (I bathe them in my laundry tub) and, yep, I get wet every time. If not when I'm washing then when I'm drying. You and Maggie are going to be just fun. Relax, be patient and enjoy her!


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## Kathie

Great progress for such a short time - yipee!


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## Milo's Mom

Sounds like things are going very well!


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## murphymoesmamma

Kay, You are a wonderful and patient mom to Maggie. I love hearing about her progress and all of her new firsts.


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## kaydm

I am so grateful this forum exists. I would have had no place to express my emotions nor to document Maggie's progress.

This is my very first dog of my own. When I was 5 years old, my family had a dog, Penny, that they said was my dog. She lived outdoors on our farm. One day dad said Penny had been run over on the road by a neighbor. I crawled under mom's Singer treadle sewing machine, sitting on the treadle. I would not come out. My little heart was broken.

With my long career in telecommunications then followed at retirement by school, licensure, and my therapeutic massage business there really was no time for a dog. About a year ago bronchitis wouldn't let go so I had to stop my massage work. After recovering, I found that I liked this retirement gig. Now I have the time to have a dog.

I was always a cat person. Maybe some of you ladies will understand when I say that with menopause came some weird allergies, including to cats. So for a few years I have been monitoring my reactions around the dogs of friends. Fur or hair, so far, so good.

I am so glad to have Maggie. When I was towel drying her today, I cuddled and cooed and loved her little warm body in my lap. At the Vet's today she moved toward me when the doc came in. I melted and cuddled and soothed her with my hands. After all I have had many clients tell me I have great touch so why wouldn't Maggie think so too? Hope I'm right. Kay


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## hvapuppy2

What a great thread, lots to learn.

Kay, from reading this thread I can tell you have a natural skill for dogs. As traumatized and all that little Maggie has been, it sounds like she too is a strong spirit. 

I would think of her as a puppy, since she has so much to learn about this new world. She'll go through phases and at times maybe seem to regress.

Since she likes food, that can be your tool, yes let anyone she meets give her a little piece of steak or chicken.

But remember she's smart (like a cat) so she will try to shape your behavior. You've noticed her holding out for 'better' food in her dinner bowl...that's her shaping you. A happy medium is mixing in a little chicken and water and maybe finely chopped veggies with her regular kibble.

And she may also become protective of you, because she really values you. That's where you'll need to nip it in the bud, ie, when on leash tell her "psht" if she ever lunges at another dog etc. I'm saying this because you don't want her to develop fear aggression. If she knows you are the boss, she can relax and let you take care of the home etc. An "alert you" bark is perfectly normal Hav' behavior.

To hear that a Havanese lived in a separate building away from people brings a tear to my eye -- Hav's are the ultimate companion dog -- I'm so glad that dear Maggie has come to you.


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## HavaneseSoon

kaydm said:


> I am so grateful this forum exists. I would have had no place to express my emotions nor to document Maggie's progress.
> 
> This is my very first dog of my own. When I was 5 years old, my family had a dog, Penny, that they said was my dog. She lived outdoors on our farm. One day dad said Penny had been run over on the road by a neighbor. I crawled under mom's Singer treadle sewing machine, sitting on the treadle. I would not come out. My little heart was broken.
> 
> With my long career in telecommunications then followed at retirement by school, licensure, and my therapeutic massage business there really was no time for a dog. About a year ago bronchitis wouldn't let go so I had to stop my massage work. After recovering, I found that I liked this retirement gig. Now I have the time to have a dog.
> 
> I was always a cat person. Maybe some of you ladies will understand when I say that with menopause came some weird allergies, including to cats. So for a few years I have been monitoring my reactions around the dogs of friends. Fur or hair, so far, so good.
> 
> I am so glad to have Maggie. When I was towel drying her today, I cuddled and cooed and loved her little warm body in my lap. At the Vet's today she moved toward me when the doc came in. I melted and cuddled and soothed her with my hands. After all I have had many clients tell me I have great touch so why wouldn't Maggie think so too? Hope I'm right. Kay


We are so glad you are here! Keep posting!

It is amazing what a pet can do in your life when you need someone to care and love. Dexter came at a great time in my life too!


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## hvapuppy2

kaydm said:


> I am so grateful this forum exists. I would have had no place to express my emotions nor to document Maggie's progress...
> 
> This is my very first dog of my own. When I was 5 years old, my family had a dog, Penny, that they said was my dog. She lived outdoors on our farm. One day dad said Penny had been run over on the road by a neighbor. I crawled under mom's Singer treadle sewing machine, sitting on the treadle. I would not come out. My little heart was broken.


I know what you mean, children do take the loss of their pet very deeply. A neighbor kid killed our dog Sally, by kicking her. I was 4 years old and I cried to sleep every night for years.

I went to a massage therapist a couple years ago and she was doing some deep massage work on my abdomen. During the session I had a strong vision of my dog -- like she had pulled that memory from deep in my core.

It wasn't till after the session she said it could draw up strong emotions. I had a few tears again in the elevator on the way home, and yes, that dog's death had obviously affected me deeply.

We're glad you joined this forum too .


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## kaydm

Therapeutic massage is so healing on more than the physical level. Some believe our body tissues hold memories. I have experienced release of tears when I received massage during a time of working through some past family issues. So healing.


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## Missy

Kay, now I know why you are so instinctively right on with Maggie. you are a healer! I am off to get healed by my massage therapist right now. We're glad to have you on the forum. I too love going back and seeing the progress my boys have made and I have made with them. This is a great place!


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## kaydm

Happy Monday. I had a great session with the dog trainer yesterday. He was here 2 hours talking with me and working with me and Maggie.

I actually got to pet Maggie for the first time without her shying away or shaking. I cried, it was so cool. Now I know she likes lamb bits for treats. Course it helped that the trainer told me not to feed her before he came.

So my homework this week is to continue feeding her treats and moving closer to pet her. Also, eating a cracker while she sees me eating before I feed her. It's a hoot that this works as she looks for her food dish then. Guess I am now the top dog here.

My long term care insurance agent is coming over Friday with her puggle, named Maggie as well. Someone tied this puggle to a tree in her front yard. No tags or microchip. No clues as to why someone picked her yard. Turns out this woman has never had a dog either and is now totally in love. Her vet assures her the puggle is healthy. I think it will be fun to see if my Maggie really is missing other dogs as I believe she is. She runs around looking for dogs when she hears barking.


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## gelbergirl

welcome to the forum.
Glad to have read Maggie is showing really good progress and that the vet can see her as healthy.
Hope Maggie has fun with her playdate Maggie!


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## marjrc

Kay, welcome, welcome, welcome to you and dear Maggie! I am finally seeing your thread and am so glad you posted. Maggie is adorable in that picture! I'm guessing they may have had to shave her down before you got her because they weren't grooming her regularly. Good, caring grooming will allow the dog to bond with you, but I'd imagine Maggie will need to take it really slowly. Her previous owners obviously didn't bother to try socializing their dogs.

You are doing so great so far! I'm inspired by your comments and journaling and I think you will do just fine with little Maggie.  The trainer sounds wonderful and so helpful ! I cried when I read your "angry post", but it has moved you to make sure you learn as much as you can to help your new girl out. Bravo for you! Thank you for sharing with us. I learn from so many members here, even though I'm one of the 'oldies' and I'll enjoy reading more about you and Maggie.  Let us know how the doggy visit goes on Friday.


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## Milo's Mom

Kay,

I am so happy for you and Maggie! It sounds like you're making such good progress; I'm so glad that the trainer is so helpful. Can't wait to hear about her adventure with the puggle. Thanks for keeping us informed!


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## Sheri

Kay, it is so heart-warming to read about you and the progress you are making with Maggie. You are a dear Havvie momma, and I hope you keep posting to keep us up to date.

I, too, was so sad to read that Maggie was kept out in a separate building, in runs. What an awful way to treat a hav, a breed that needs people and contact.

You are doing a great job.


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## HavaneseSoon

I am so happy Maggie is making progress!


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## kaydm

Thank you all for your kind words. This afternoon I followed the trainer's advice and gave Maggie a little dab of peanut butter to see if she likes it. She doesn't. Just to be sure she wasn't eating it due to not being hungry, I gave her a dab of regular dog food and she snarfed it up. So forget the thingum to freeze peanut butter in.

The previous owner sent along a bag of Purina Dog Chow. Ugh. The vet gave me some wet, canned food to feed her this weekend as the chicken I gave her last week caused very soft stool. Now the trainer suggests I go to the one of the only 2 locally owned pet products store to get a bag of Veternarian Formulated food. Anybody know about this brand before I go buy it and start mixing it with the wet food to wean her off it?


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## davetgabby

what type of food are you hoping to feed. Kibble or canned or a combo?


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## Jill in Mich

Kay, whenever you decide what type food you want to feed you can freeze some canned food in a kong also. Just give that to Maggie in place of part of her meal.


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## davetgabby

Kay I have another question. A number of our trainers really believe in T Touch. This might really be up your alley. It is a form holistic message etc for animals. Here is their site. http://www.ttouch.com/ And also, if you like reading , I just read an excellent book by Nichole Wilde called Help For Your Fearful Dog.


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## kaydm

Dave the vet and the trainer both indicated I can feeddry (is that kibble?) dog food.
Both said that I needed to start incorporating with the wet canned food little by little and work up to just the dry.


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## davetgabby

yes that's fine, But is it what you want to feed. Canned is three times the price but it is healthier. Just asking.


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## kaydm

I am only using a canned formula this past weekend as Maggie's stools were very soft bordering on diarhea due to eating chicken. The plan from the vet is to get back to dry food that she is used to. But I refuse to continue feeding her Purina Dog Chow. That's why I asked the trainer for suggestion. Apparently his suggestion is organic without fillers and crap.


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## marjrc

Kay, you might be interested in checking out this site: www.dogfoodanalysis.com It reviews and analyses almost all types of dog foods out there, rating them from 0-6 stars. "Vet formulas" have almost no meat and rate very, very low, so do read up on that and make your decision accordingly. You'll be surprised! 

There are some great threads on this in the "Alternative Diet" section of the forum so go ahead and ask questions in some of those if you have any, o.k.? Someone will be glad to offer suggestions. Check out Daniel's thread on 'frozen treat' : http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=4692 It can make the kong irresistible to Maggie.


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## davetgabby

yeah you probably introduced the chicken too much too fast. Getting back to stability is probably your best bet for now . Training is much more important a priority right now. Going back to kibble will be a bit trickier being she is used to real meat. Just do it gradually . I will check with Sabine as far as a good way to do this. Look for something like Evo or Orijen for now.


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## kaydm

Marj and Dave, thank you so much for the info. I'll read up on it. Kay


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## davetgabby

yeah Marj always has good advice. She is an inspiration. Another great Canuck. LOL.


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## christie6104

Jill in Mich said:


> WELCOME and CONGRATULATIONS!!! It'll be okay. Give her some time. Since she's not a pup it may take more than a day or two to not be quite so shell-shocked but be patient and don't give up. She'll come around. When I first got Tess I couldn't get near her, so I left a leash on her around the clock (except when you're crating her, if that's what you're doing - you don't want the leash/collar to get caught on the crate) so I could catch her with minimal stress on either of us when it was time to go out. Along with trying to catch her when you think she needs to go out, set yourself on a set schedule for a while - go outside every 1/2 hour, then 45 min, etc. Try to have a few very low key days with minimal noise/excitement (if that's possible in your house). Make your movements as slow as possible and let her take things at her own speed. Try to be aware of you're own emotions - breath deeply when you need to and try to relax. It will be okay. This will work out just fine. It may not be the homecoming you had imagined but many of us have been in your shoes, wondering what in the world we've gotten ourselves in to - you'll both get to the other side! GOOD LUCK! Feel free to ask any questions and come back for reassurance whenever you need it.


I agree with Jill about being aware of your emotions. When I got Lucky (I adopted him from a shelter at about age 5) he was quite shy. I was a nervous wreck myself wondering if I was doing everything right. The funny thing is that the first time he jumped in my lap was when I was on the phone with a friend and I was laughing at something she said. I'm telling you, they can sense what you're feeling, so hard as it might be try to remain calm and happy. (Easier said than done...I know!)


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## Phoebs

Phoebe was completely shunning her Wellness kibbles after I started offering chicken meat. I switched to Orijen about 2 weeks ago. I was supposed to do it gradually, but since she would not actually put the Wellness in her mouth, that didn't work out. She is LOVING the Origen, and is even accepting it as a training treat now. I definitely recommend giving it a try. She didn't have any problems with the switch in terms of BMs, and it actually improved things for her. I also think she has more energy now, but that probably is due less to the quality of the dog food, and mostly due to the fact that she is actually eating it now.


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## kaydm

Thank you Phoebe's mom. Is Orijen wet canned or dry bagged? Does it have just one general flavor? I will call around with a little more info please? Kay


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## kaydm

Thanks for you input, Lucky's mom. I am quite a laid back person usually. I was warned by a friend who spent her life counseling folks that I could expect a meltdown sometime after my major surgery Aug 13th. Little did I know that my meltdown would focus on the past treatment of my new dog. Of course there was a parallel there for me too. I do not wish to live life fearfully either. Much calmer since I took action the same day. I just love this forum. Kay


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## Chere

I'm catching up with all that has happened with you and Maggie since I last posted. You both have made amazing progress! I am so happy for you; rescue dogs are so great and rewarding. To see them go from so fearful and timid to really wanting to be petted and cuddled is the best feeling! Our two love chicken but we do limit it. Because one of them has some gastro problems, we do feed a low residue diet to both of them (we tried feeding them different things but they kept switching bowls on us so we gave up and decided to feed them both the same thing). They seem to be thriving on the food. We do offer treats but try to be careful not to give too much of any one thing to avoid those tummy upsets.

Sounds as if you found a wonderful trainer. Isnt' it amazing how much Maggie has changed in such a short while?


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## kaydm

Chere, today I walked out in the yard where Maggie spends most of the day every day. She checks out every noise and every movement on the street from her favorite spot. I approached her slowly, got low, and scratched under her chin. She never shivered, but I sensed she wasn't crazy about it. So ok I did it only once, but it felt good to me that she didn't shiver. Kay


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## Phoebs

Hi,
Orijen is a high protein kibble (dry food). I'm feeding the puppy formula but they have various flavors for adults including a red meat, a fish and (i think) a chicken one. Check out on this forum in other threads, and at dogfoodanalysis.com. This is an ultra high grade food with no grain fillers, but there are other very high quality kibbles too. I wanted Phoebe to love it enough to accept it as a treat, so it's been great. You can go on the Orijen website and find a store near you that sells it.


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## Jill in Mich

kaydm said:


> Chere, today I walked out in the yard where Maggie spends most of the day every day. She checks out every noise and every movement on the street from her favorite spot. I approached her slowly, got low, and scratched under her chin. She never shivered, but I sensed she wasn't crazy about it. So ok I did it only once, but it felt good to me that she didn't shiver. Kay


Kay, I just wanted to throw out the idea that Maggie may progress faster if she's spending more time with you. By the sounds of it she's out in the yard, by herself, most of the time? I'd be interested in other people's input but the Havanese personality, as a companion dog, isn't well suited to being outside and alone for a good portion of each day. I know she's very timid right now but the more time she spends in your company the quicker she'll grow to trust you and gain confidence.


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## luv3havs

I have the same thoughts as Jill.

She'll attach to you more quickly if she is with you in the house. 
Our dogs want to be with us all the time. They follow me everywhere. That's how Havanese are.

Our new little Max, the rescue foster dog, (who also has issues), is wherever I am in the house, except for the few times I deliberately leave him in the kitchen to get him used to being alone.

I think you have made great progress with your adorable sweet little girl!


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## kaydm

Thank you both for saying that. I, too, have been wondering about her wanting to be outside all the time. I'm thinking she's avoiding me. This morning I turned on the tv and sat on the floor about 7 feet away from her crate. She had just come back inside and headed right into the crate. I talked back at the tv for that length of time. Felt a little stupid but figured it might help herget used to my voice. Every 15 minutes I tossed an Orijen kibble bit near her crate. She ignored them. Then after an hour I heard a noise outside and went to see. While I was doing that, Maggie bounded outside to do her business. When I came back in, I shut her crate door. Now we'll see what happens. Thanks so much for your imput. Kay


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## kaydm

Well, I just went out and brought Maggie in, wiped the dew off her feet and ears and brought her into my computer room where I have a small tv on. She is surprised, but I told her we are spending the day together. I brought in the soft mat from her crate. I am just talking as I am typing. This should be interesting. Kay


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## davetgabby

Hi Kay , yeah I have to agree with Jill and Nan. Try to be more active with her. Don't force her into anything . Here is a good article by one of our members at DSD. by Gillian Ridgeway . Play is a powerful tool. http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/power-play


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## Jill in Mich

Kay, I think having Maggie spend time in the room with you while you're on the computer is perfect. Tess still has trouble with people approaching her but if they ignore her she ultimately will end up coming up to smell them and now will allow them to pet her. It's taken almost 2 years for Tess to play with me. I would spend time talking to her also. Sometimes I would just lay on the floor and let her come up and sniff me without trying to touch her but once in a while letting her take a treat out of my hand. You will find this to be a lesson in patience but it's worth it. You're making great progress.


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## kaydm

thanks jill typing w/ 1 hand as wrist hurts from where iv was inserted doc says it's plebitis and nothing to worry about but now playing heck w/ typing more tomorrow kay


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## kaydm

Using heat pack and aspirin for my phlebitis. Great news today at my doc's. No need for blood pressure meds as of now since had plaque removed from carotid artery. Yay.

Maggie has a setback. Just as I was ready to leave yesterday, I went out to bring her in. My lawn service people chose that moment to fire up their 3 mowers. She freaked. I had to crate her as I had to get to that appointment. Today she still is real skittish and doesn't like me to even look at her. 

This morning Maggie was with me in computer room as I read aloud emails and other stuff. I laid on the floor awhile not looking at her, hoping she'd sniff around on me, but no luck. Part of the morning was out on the porch trying to get her interested in kong spilling out kibble. She wasn't interested. Even as slow as I go, no luck there either. On the other hand, she let's me scratch under her chin without shaking. Oh well, tomorrow's another day. Kay


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## davetgabby

Kay , the scratch under the chin was a good thing. Concentrate on the good things she does. I would really consider getting a clicker and reinforcing every good thing she does even if it is looking at you. When you get that book that you ordered ,you will need one. The book will explain these things but you have to gain her trust and once she gains a little confidence she will surprise you. I will also send you an article on handling. Think positive. Good news on your meds and hope you are getting your strength back.


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## Jill in Mich

Kay,

Congratulations on getting the blood pressure under control. I hope the same happens with the phlebitis. There was an episode of Animal Cops Houston last night that made me think of you and Maggie. It was a beagle who had been isolated from people and other animals. They explained that a beagle is a very social animal and living like that had to have been torture for him. Sounds very similar to a Hav - and Maggie's situation in particular. The foster mother did what you're doing. Basically the suggestion was to just go about your day, not paying a lot of attention to the dog to start with (although just talking so they get used to your voice is great), don't worry about trying to give treats, just have the dog with you as much as possible. To start with the dog would prefer to be out in the yard alone because that's all they've know and they will be uncomfortable with this new arrangement because it's so new. But within a few weeks/months they will start coming out of their shell. Keep at it, you're on the right track!


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## hvapuppy2

davetgabby said:


> Kay , the scratch under the chin was a good thing. Concentrate on the good things she does. I would really consider getting a clicker and reinforcing every good thing she does even if it is looking at you. When you get that book that you ordered ,you will need one. The book will explain these things but you have to gain her trust and once she gains a little confidence she will surprise you. I will also send you an article on handling. Think positive. Good news on your meds and hope you are getting your strength back.


I thought of clicker too, but then I remembered what happened to a friends dog -- the dog became so freaked out by the click she darted away -- sooo --- I highly recommend NO CLICKER. I need to make this point because the clicker if used incorrectly can back-fire so badly.

If you have the clicker book, use the word yes instead of using a clicker. The clicker is not good for a girl as sensitive as Maggie.

Use a word to "mark" the behavior you want instead of using a clicker. I went to an advances in dog training seminar with Susan Garrett and she no longer subscribes to clicker that much, she prefers to use the word "yes". ironically susan's website is http://www.clickerdogs.com

"Yes" is better because you can make mistakes with yes, the clicker is absolute.

My suggestion, and it's just a suggestion:
First what you do is, instead of chicken, fry up some steak in butter...ideally organic in both cases.

let her smell the raw steak when you bring it home, let her watch you prepare it, talk to her gently and say this is for you!. Let her smell it in the pan (safely not too close)

She'll watch and anticipate the whole process. Then cut the steak up right there in front of her, at the table (dogs know what's going on on the table even if they can't see it ) and ooh and ahh a little bit....like "ooh you're gonna luuv this mmmmm...."

Let it sit on the table for a bit while it cools. then maybe drop a little sliver on the floor near her. Do not come close -- let her find it. You can do this a couple of times. Then crouch down( if you can) and hold it in your hand. Do not say a word...let her smell it. If she doesn't budge then throw a piece closer to you now, and do not look her in the eye. (eyes are threatening for non-socialized rescue dogs).

Gradually she will come to you to get the steak. When she does she will probably grab and back up...that's fine. put your hand out again, and maybe on the third time say a very soft "yes". This has now marked the behavior you like and she associates the word with something she likes. Remember no eye contact -- that will come much later

Do not make a big production of this. But whenever you see something you like from her, gently say "yes", and give her meat.

I personally do not feed my dogs chicken....they get, steak, buffalo, lamb, raw turkey necks and fresh raw veggies...and organic kibble made in a human grade facility. Cheddar cheese for training on occasion (not too much can get poop sticky).

Another thing they absolutely love on their kibble is green tripe...just a teaspoon of the tripe rolled in the kibble.

Every time you place her breakfast down with tripe, kibble, and steak pieces say "yes" softly as she begins to eat...it's like the pavlov's bell and it works wonders as a training tool.

These are just suggestions and I hope are just taken as suggestions.

Angela


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## davetgabby

hvapuppy2 said:


> I thought of clicker too, but then I remembered what happened to a friends dog -- the dog became so freaked out by the click she darted away -- sooo --- I highly recommend NO CLICKER. I need to make this point because the clicker if used incorrectly can back-fire so badly.
> 
> If you have the clicker book, use the word yes instead of using a clicker. The clicker is not good for a girl as sensitive as Maggie.
> 
> Use a word to "mark" the behavior you want instead of using a clicker. I went to an advances in dog training seminar with Susan Garrett and she no longer subscribes to clicker that much, she prefers to use the word "yes". ironically susan's website is http://www.clickerdogs.com
> 
> "Yes" is better because you can make mistakes with yes, the clicker is absolute.
> 
> My suggestion, and it's just a suggestion:
> First what you do is, instead of chicken, fry up some steak in butter...ideally organic in both cases.
> 
> let her smell the raw steak when you bring it home, let her watch you prepare it, talk to her gently and say this is for you!. Let her smell it in the pan (safely not too close)
> 
> She'll watch and anticipate the whole process. Then cut the steak up right there in front of her, at the table (dogs know what's going on on the table even if they can't see it ) and ooh and ahh a little bit....like "ooh you're gonna luuv this mmmmm...."
> 
> Let it sit on the table for a bit while it cools. then maybe drop a little sliver on the floor near her. Do not come close -- let her find it. You can do this a couple of times. Then crouch down( if you can) and hold it in your hand. Do not say a word...let her smell it. If she doesn't budge then throw a piece closer to you now, and do not look her in the eye. (eyes are threatening for non-socialized rescue dogs).
> 
> Gradually she will come to you to get the steak. When she does she will probably grab and back up...that's fine. put your hand out again, and maybe on the third time say a very soft "yes". This has now marked the behavior you like and she associates the word with something she likes. Remember no eye contact -- that will come much later
> 
> Do not make a big production of this. But whenever you see something you like from her, gently say "yes", and give her meat.
> 
> I personally do not feed my dogs chicken....they get, steak, buffalo, lamb, raw turkey necks and fresh raw veggies...and organic kibble made in a human grade facility. Cheddar cheese for training on occasion (not too much can get poop sticky).
> 
> Another thing they absolutely love on their kibble is green tripe...just a teaspoon of the tripe rolled in the kibble.
> 
> Every time you place her breakfast down with tripe, kibble, and steak pieces say "yes" softly as she begins to eat...it's like the pavlov's bell and it works wonders as a training tool.
> 
> These are just suggestions and I hope are just taken as suggestions.
> 
> Angela


Hi Angela , I have to disagree with you about the clicker. Above you said "
"yes is better , becauuse you can make mistakes with yes, the clicker is absolute". That sort of doesn't make sense. The reason why Karen Pryor (who basically is the worlds formost authority on clicker training ) recommends the clicker over a verbal marker is because the clicker is absolute. It does not confuse the dog like "yes" or any other verbal marker. Here is the reason why the clicker is better. This article I just posted a week or so ago on the forum here. Yes you have to be careful not to click close to the dog at first but do it from a distance until they get used to it. But that doesn't take too much to do. Just click from twenty feet away and throw the treat. And gradually get closer as the dog learns what it means. Here is the article... 
A clicker it is much more precise , non emotional and studies have shown that the sound of a clicker reaches the amygdala. Another advantage of the clicker over a spoken word is that the dog's central nervous
system can process the click many times faster than it can process a word.
A spoken word must be recognized and interpreted before the dog understands
that a behavior is being marked. In contrast, a click is processed almost instantaneously.
Karen Pryor and veterinary neurophysiologist Barbara Schoening have been doing
some research into the neuropsychology of clicker training in an attempt to
discover exactly why clickers do work so well. Their hypothesis is that the click is
processed in a different part of the brain than spoken words are. The click, they
believe, goes directly to the instinctive, reflexive, part of the brain (the amygdala,
which is part of the limbic system) instead of having to go to the "thinking" part
of the brain (the cortex). According to Pryor in an article entitled The Neurophysiology
of Clicker Training.
Research in neurophysiology has identified the kinds of stimuli-bright lights,
sudden sharp sounds-that reach the amygdala first, before reaching the cortex
or thinking part of the brain. The click is that kind of stimulus. Other research,
on conditioned fear responses in humans, shows that these also are established
via the amygdala, and are characterized by a pattern of very rapid learning, often
on a single trial, long-term retention, and a big surge of concomitant emotions..
. .Barbara and I hypothesize that the clicker is a conditioned 'joy' stimulus
that is acquired and recognized through those same primitive pathways, which
would help explain why it is so very different from, say, a human word, in its
effect.
Once a dog is properly conditioned on the clicker, he will react to the clicker
reflexively. He literally cannot help but respond. I don't know anyone who has
conditioned a verbal marker (such as "yes" or "good") to such a high degree. The
clicker is definitely a power tool!


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## Jill in Mich

Haven't I read that you can also wrap the clicker in a piece of cloth to start with to muffle the sound?


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## Jill in Mich

Kay,

We're always ready to give advice - one more piece that I think is important.... ask whatever you want, consider the suggestions you receive, and then decide on your own whether it works for you. Only you can know what's best for you and Maggie.


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## davetgabby

That's right Jill ,or click behind your back . You do have to go softly at first because some dogs find it aversive at first. But once they learn what it means they are eager to hear it.


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## davetgabby

Hey Jill you are exactly right. By the way have you heard of Devene Godau from The Trainers Academy in Royal Oak MI. ? She is one of our members and an avid Greyhound person.


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## Jill in Mich

davetgabby said:


> Hey Jill you are exactly right. By the way have you heard of Devene Godau from The Trainers Academy in Royal Oak MI. ? She is one of our members and an avid Greyhound person.


I'm not sure I know Devene (I've met quite a few of the staff so know faces but not names). I have done the beginner & advanced classes with the owner, Lisa Patrona and am eargerly awaiting their next CGC & Pet Therapy classes. They're great people there. I'll watch for Devene the next time I'm there!


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## hvapuppy2

I really did not want to get into a polemic about this...but since you insist, for the very reason that clicker is so powerful is why it is not the best tool for a rescue dog with sound sensitivities.

Clicker sound is powerful and that's why it' not the best in this case.

I hope you don't take offense to my post...I just think we all want the best for Maggie, and I would feel bad if I didn't share my point of view and she regressed.

Susan Garrett named her website clickerdogs.com she knows pryor personally and prefers the word "YES". That is why her website is say yes --

What I like about Susan is she is able to change her mind and her philosophy.

Yes you can soften the sound of the clicker...but doesn't that prove the point then? Clicker trainer's suggest to soften the sound...why? because it can freak the dog out.

I really really really did not want to offend anyone, and I am afraid my darn writing tone did it again.

So sorry, so very very sorry.

Angela


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## hvapuppy2

And about marking the behavior... I myself have misused the clicker when training weave pole entries...the dog looked like he was entering and I clicked and he did not enter...so now what have I marked??? and it happened quite a few times. Same with clicking for tugging the tug...he releases as soon as I click...I clicked initially when he started to bite the tug, thus marking the behavior...but I want him to continue tugging... so now I 've got a dog who won't sustain a tug. So back to yes.

Clicker does not work for motions like moving through a sequence of obstacles...ok...which was the right behavior? tunnel , jump, A-frame and click???

Yes clicker works for healthy dogs, and teaching tricks like sit...but how do you click happiness and trust? it's a broad feeling and that is why I suggested yes for now.

Gradually she can introduce the clicker for other stuff but yes works... I can assure you, Susan Garrett has trained her regional and champion dog recently (Feature) with the word YES... and maybe a few clicks 

cheers, Angela


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## hvapuppy2

another reason why NOT to click with a rescue dog....

The click, they believe, goes directly to the instinctive, reflexive, part of the brain (the amygdala, which is part of the limbic system) instead of having to go to the "thinking" part of the brain (the cortex).

The limbic system is embryologically older than other parts of the brain. It developed to manage 'fight' or 'flight' chemicals ...

...if you accidentally introduce the clicker the wrong way or time, it is really really hard to undo...

The clicker is awesome...but I personally would not start little shivering Maggie out with a clicker.

hugs, Angela


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## Jill in Mich

Angela, since I've been part of the conversation here, I'll tell you I wasn't at all offended. I think you provided Kay with an excellent alternative to a clicker, with strong points to support your position. You're right, you can miscue the clicker and I also found it doesn't work for something as fluid as agility - I'm not fast enough to click at exactly the right point to reinforce the skill I want. On the other hand, I have had great success with the clicker with Tess (a very traumatized puppymill breeder). I just had to take it very slowly with her. I also had the advantage of a 2nd dog where Tess was able to watch Cody working with the clicker to make the connection between click and treat.


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## krandall

hvapuppy2 said:


> And about marking the behavior... I myself have misused the clicker when training weave pole entries...the dog looked like he was entering and I clicked and he did not enter...so now what have I marked??? and it happened quite a few times. Same with clicking for tugging the tug...he releases as soon as I click...I clicked initially when he started to bite the tug, thus marking the behavior...but I want him to continue tugging... so now I 've got a dog who won't sustain a tug. So back to yes.


Hi Angela,

Obviously you know a lot more about this than I do, and I certainly have read that with sound-reactive dogs you need to be careful just getting them used to the sound of the clicker before you can use it as a training tool. I can understand your wariness about using a clicker with this dog RIGHT NOW.

But in terms of your examples above, don't you use the clicker to then "shape" more of the behavior that you want? For instance, when I was teaching Kodi to "down", in the beginning I would click the minute he slid into the down. As soon as he heard the click, he would pop back up... end of behavior. When I mentioned this to my trainer, she said the next step was to click only the "better" downs, when he held it longer, then eventually start chaining things together where you only click the finish of the new behavior you are teaching. So now we are working on down stays. I signal him to "down", but I don't click that... he knows it. Then I give him the "stay" signal, move away, and move back. Only then do I click, and he gets his treat. (there were more steps in between as we were starting the stay, but I'm sure you know what they are) So it seems to me that if you are using the clicker to continuously shape behavior... starting by clicking approximations, then working toward clicking only finished behaviors, An occasional wrong click can't cause that much of a set-back. (certainly Kodi seems to forgive mine!:redface

Another piece of the equation is that a clicker in the hands of someone who knows and is practiced in clicker training is completely different than a clicker in the hands of a novice without help. I know Kay has a good trainer helping her, and maybe she should discuss this with her trainer first. _IF_ they decide to start working with a clicker, the trainer can help her introduce it in a positive, productive way. Even if they decide that at this point it's better to use a "marking word", it takes some time and training for the human to understand when to use that marking word to best advantage.


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## luv3havs

In the past, I have wrapped the clicker with masking tape to mute the sound.

It worked great with Cali. Especially for trick training.

I'm using the word "yes" with Max the rescue, but plan on muting the clicker and trying it with him because it really does mark the behavior.

If it bothers him, I'll go back to "yes".

I think you have to be comfortable with your methods and also use what works best for the dog.


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## hvapuppy2

Sorry for long post...

Shaping behavior - yes I find one can use the clicker to shape behavior and it's a great tool to try out and play with a dog. 

I think it is especially good with dogs that don't pay attention and have a "stubborn" streak.

But with my keen group what I've found is as soon as they hear the click they pop out of their position and they look at me for the treat. 

You can shape behavior in a chain with delivering a reward and a "yes". I've been using this method to train my border collie. 

So the dog learns that they only end the sit or the stand when I give a release word in my case a "break" command. This is how SG won hundreds of obedience competitions...her dog never learned the "stay" or "wait" command, but rather sat or held their position or continued doing what they were doing until they were told to do something else.

So you show food in your hand, dog tries to get food, you close your hand, dog offers a behavior ie dog sits, you reward them with treat in the sitting position

When dog offers a sit repeatedly you then add a word to the "sit" when they sit, and you reward. 

Adding to that, after lots of success, dog sits, you move, dog moves, you move back to where they originally sit, and they offer a sit, you reward, repeat a couple times, soon the dog learns that sitting is getting them the treat... take a step away dog still sitting and return with reward...basically in silence. this is done for only 2 minutes, you are pleased with dog (staying) in their sit and you say "yes" break and reward and play a game, run around with your dog and let them release some stress.

next day the dog can learn a new trick, in a different place...ie stand. Dog thinks, hmm when I'm standing she shoves food in my mouth...I think I'll stand here for a while 

SG showed us her shape the dog's behavior to pick up their dinner bowl...hardly a word was spoken, a few yes's as she chained the steps together. The dog made the choices and will always remember the trick now.

It's cool stuff, and I'm hav'ing fun trying it out will my crew. Bella loves this game 

My border collie never wants to sit still, he circles. So every time he sits in his corner in the kitchen he gets a treat...now he simply hangs out in that corner....which is handy -- yelling at him to get back in his corner was not working...or putting him in his crate as punishment. 

I think the clicker is a great tool, I use it to get Bella to focus on me before we do an agility run, it gets her in the "we're training mode" or probably in her mind "I'm getting treats" mode. 

I think clicker is great...but also risky for newbies and sound sensitive traumatized dogs...from personal experience of seeing a normal dog get really put off by one...sad.

A


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## krandall

hvapuppy2 said:


> I think clicker is great...but also risky for newbies and sound sensitive traumatized dogs...from personal experience of seeing a normal dog get really put off by one...sad.


Thanks for the explanation of her stuff. I went to her web site ans was impressed. I may order a couple of her videos. (I know you've mentioned the crate games one before)

Your quote above was, I think, what I was trying to get at.

BTW, we set up a mini puppy agility course for Kodi, and he loves it. We have a kiddie play tunnel, some poles on the ground to "jump" over, a ladder to trot through, and a plank about 6" off the ground to walk on. He's having a blast with it!


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## hvapuppy2

I have her "success with one jump video and it is a very good start for getting a dog to understand the handler signals.

the crate games is good for teaching her "shaping" method...but it was better going to her seminars after going through the video because she showed how to use the "it's yer choice" game in CG to teach most everything.

her blog is a wealth of information...I don't know how she has the time


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## kaydm

Hello, all. My, what a lively discussion. It's good to see different points of view.

Trainer came yesterday. He brought Rescue Remedy and Maggie seemed to quiet down some after he gave her some. We were thwarted from working in the yard as mower boy fired up his riding mower (overkill, in my opinion, for such a small yard) next door.

Trainer brought tennis ball to see how she reacts to distraction. Maggie showed real interest in the ball as it was repeatedly bounced softly off the wall next to her. Each time she showed interest, he had me say Good Girl. Every time she looked at me when I said her name, he had me say to her Good Girl.

I told him I wipe her feet with her in my lap each morning to get the dew wiped off. I also told him I had picked her up and put her on the table to brush her and she stood still without shaking. He then told me I could be assertive like that by putting her in my lap while watching tv and petting her. I tried that and she stayed quiet for about a half hour. I did that again today and again she was quiet with no shaking as I massaged her sweet little body. She spent more time with me today as I was reading on the porch when she could have been outside. Every time she looked up at me I told her Good Girl. She was closer than usual to me when napping today.

Small steps. I'm grateful. Kay


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## Sheri

Glad to read of your good report! You are really being a good mom to your little girl. She's trusting you already so much. It is so sad that she was treated so poorly until you brought her home.


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## Jill in Mich

Yay Kay!!! What great progress!


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## kaydm

Thanks Jill and Sheri. This a.m. I caught Maggie's interest by playing with a small soft toy with a squeaker. She watched me toss it up in air and from hand to hand. When I put it down and walked away, she went over to sniff it. Yay.

After awhile I picked her up and brushed her on the table and she was not shaking. Later, I put her in my lap and just massaged her. I swear there was like a little purr. Dogs don't do that, do they? Kay


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## Missy

Kay, you are getting such great advice both from here and the trainer. I have nothing to add other than I am GFETE (grinning from ear to ear) for both you and Maggie. They don't sound like small steps to me...They sound huge!


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## hvapuppy2

wonderful news :cheer2:

The thing I don't like about rescue remedy (oh here I go again) is it's 25% grape alcohol, and I once used it on my rescue dog and it seemed to affect his gut/stool...I looked it up on the net and can not find if the dog version has alcohol or not, as I used the human version (given to me by a friend) There are non-alcoholic gummy drops rescue remedy, but those have toxic for dogs artificial sweetener...

This melanin may also help to calm her when you know certain stresses may be around.

http://doghealth1.com/2008/08/melatonin-for-dogs/


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## kaydm

Thanks for your experience with Rescue Remedy. I don't plan to buy any as Maggie is not wild or hysterical around new people. Kay


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## Lilysplash I

What an interesting post. Thanks to all for also informing those of us who are following Maggie's progress.


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## kaydm

This afternoon as I was reading and writing emails, Maggie slept on the rug about 3 feet away. After awhile I looked up and she was awake, looking at me. Then she rolled on her back and left her belly vulnerable to me. I rubbed her belly and scratched under her chin and sat back. She rolled forward and then went back to having her belly exposed. So for the next half hour, I rubbed her belly and massaged her whole body. Her little legs were like limp noodles. It was so cool. Kay


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## hvapuppy2

kaydm said:


> Thanks for your experience with Rescue Remedy. I don't plan to buy any as Maggie is not wild or hysterical around new people. Kay


From what I've heard, people use RR for dogs that have separation anxiety or sound sensitivity etc...not just for hyper dogs, but rather stressed dogs.

but i don't think it's best on account of the alcohol content


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## davetgabby

kaydm said:


> This afternoon as I was reading and writing emails, Maggie slept on the rug about 3 feet away. After awhile I looked up and she was awake, looking at me. Then she rolled on her back and left her belly vulnerable to me. I rubbed her belly and scratched under her chin and sat back. She rolled forward and then went back to having her belly exposed. So for the next half hour, I rubbed her belly and massaged her whole body. Her little legs were like limp noodles. It was so cool. Kay


Hi Kay that sounds terrific. Sorry I missed some of the posts. I was away. Just keep it simple you are doing a great job. Some of our trainers use Rescue Remedy but I don't think you need it for your situation. I will try to send you a couple more articles, but need a holiday to recover from my holiday. lol


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## Milo's Mom

Kay, it sounds like you're making great strides with Maggie! She's learning what it is to be loved. Keep it up!


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## kaydm

You guys, I wish you all could have been with me this afternoon. I heard a dog barking in the yard adjacent to mine. I figured my neighbor's daughter was over there with her rescue dog ( strange looking little fella, no one knows what he is). I thought she was probably getting the house ready for my neighbor's return from her summer lake home in Minnesota. 

My dog, Maggie, came running into the porch, right over to me, like ok protect me, please.

I went out in the yard and sure enough, there was the little guy, barking and jumping against the fence. Pretty soon, out came my neighbor, Martha, with her Havanese, Lonnie, who was also a rescue dog from a breeder. Martha, her daughter and boyfriend and I talked about Maggie. 

Meanwhile, Maggie walked over within 10 feet of all of us. I was astonished. Then, Lonnie, the Hav next door, gave some happy barks and put her front paws up on the fence. My neighbor picked up Lonnie and put her over the fence into my yard. 

Maggie and Lonnie walked right up to each other and touched noses, then sniffed butts, then romped around the yard. Maggie's tail was up over her back, waving like a flag. I nearly cried because she was so happy. I had never seen her wag her tail.

Then Maggie went over to the fence and did play bows to the little guy and they both stood up and sniffed each other. Then they backed off and rushed forward and backed off. It was so great to see. 

They took the male dog inside and let Maggie and Lonnie, who is female, too, play together. After awhile Lonnie wanted to back home, so I put her over the fence and off she went. I took Maggie inside. She ate and paced at the door, wanting back out. She paced the fence and barked and barked. She wanted her new playmates to come back. 

I brought her back in for now. She actually looked happy.

Lonnie astonished Martha as Lonnie has never really been interested in other dogs, specially not the little guy who drags her around the room by her tail in his mouth until she has had enough and just leaves.

Anyway, do I need another dog? Please say no as I am too new to all this.

But, as Martha said, we now have to playyards for these 2 girls. Kay


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## davetgabby

Hi Kay , when I mentioned the clicker I wasn't talking about complex shaping excercises. Simple reinforcement is all you need now. If you want to try it read up more on it but keep in mind these two ideas from Karen Pryor. Question 1
""My dog is afraid of the clicker. I clicked at him
and he ran and hid under the bed."
Usually a dog is afraid of the clicker because he does not
know what it means. He lacks the correct information. That
may make him suspicious (some dogs, not unwisely, associate
any new experience with going to the veterinarian.)
Don't worry about the fear; work on giving him the
information. You can soften the sound a bit by clicking the
clicker in your pocket, or behind your back. You can really
muffle the clicker by putting several layers of adhesive tape
over the "dimple" in the metal part. Now click—just once—
as you put his dinner down; or just as you start to toss him
a special treat or give him a special toy. Click just once,in your pocket when you let the dog out or back in ,or start
out the door on your walk together. Find an excuse to use
the clicker to say "Something nice is coming" at several
intervals during the day and evening. How many clickevents
do you think it will take, across three days, for your
dog to decide a click is pretty good news? Question 2
"What happens if I make a mistake in training?
Will I ruin the dog?"
If you make a mistake, laugh and pet your dog. It is easy to
click too soon or too late, or for the wrong thing, or to miss
a great chance for reinforcement, and we all do it all the
time. In the long run, you will get enough clicks in at the
right times to communicate to your dog what it is that you
want. While an erroneous punishment can do all kinds of
damage to the learning process, an erroneous reinforcement
or two is harmless. Clicker-training is creative, interactive,
and cumulative; it is a very forgiving system.

Keep it simple at first ,just click for anything good. Keep up the great work you are doing great.


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## davetgabby

Kay that is tremendous about the neigbour dog. She is coming around beautifully. But no you don't need another one just yet. LOL .


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## hvapuppy2

kaydm said:


> This afternoon as I was reading and writing emails, Maggie slept on the rug about 3 feet away. After awhile I looked up and she was awake, looking at me. Then she rolled on her back and left her belly vulnerable to me. I rubbed her belly and scratched under her chin and sat back. She rolled forward and then went back to having her belly exposed. So for the next half hour, I rubbed her belly and massaged her whole body. Her little legs were like limp noodles. It was so cool. Kay


limp noodles lol! that's a havanese indeed!

Sounds like she's gonna be ok :kiss:


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## kaydm

Hello, all. Today Maggie went to a groomer. She came home smelling good with a purple bandana around her neck. Her great tail looks wonderful, and now I can see her eyes. She may be surprised to see more too.

The groomer said she was very fearful of the whole process. I talked with her at length beforehand letting her know what I know of Maggie. The groomer was very gentle in handling Maggie and did a great job. 

Maggie is skittish now that she's home. So, have her in with me. She's napping on the rug near me. She got to romp with the Hav next door for about 15 minutes awhile ago. Then the Hav next door discovered she could wiggle thru the gate which she did and headed home. Well, that was a surprise as Maggie is smaller than that dog. Hope she didn't take notes. Kay


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## davetgabby

Yeah Kay, practice as much as you can on her. I hope the gentling article I sent you will help. It is very important to get her used to grooming before they go to groomers. Glad to hear your groomer was gentle. A groomer can really cause problems if they are not . Glad she is enjoying her play times. Keep up the socialization. Let us know how the trainer is doing. on Friday.


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## kaydm

Dave, received book on dealing with fearful dogs in mail today. Just started reading.

Pulled a very heavy cement block out to the gap in the gate. My lawn service guys will be surprised, I think.

This morning before I took Maggie to groomer, I put her up on the table again and brushed her. She stands still without shaking and seems to like the brushing. That took about 10 minutes. Did not even have to hold her with one hand.

Surprisingly, only found one mat near one ear. Her coat is very silky with very little wave to it. I had the groomer cut it same length all over except for head, left long. Love her little eyes now.


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## davetgabby

Hope you enjoy the book. The feet and the face are Molly's sensitive areas. It's when you get the bad matts that it can be stressful. The joys of long haired dogs. LOL.


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## davetgabby

yeah keep an eye on your fence. Check it regularily. Luckily Havanese (at least my Molly) are not diggers. Jack Russels can be real escape artists. Or any terriers for that matter. Yep Molly just lost her friend on the other side of our fence. She was put down last week. Randy was her name. Molly used to give her kisses throught the fence. I will miss her too . I used to give her treats as well. I kept calling her "him" all the time ,because of her name. Felt sorry for her - never got walked. Just got fat. Geeeze people can be cruel.


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## Jill in Mich

Kayyyyyy, I think it's time for a new pictures of Maggie!


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## davetgabby

Jill you read my mind. That's scarrrry. Come on Kay lets see some action shots.


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## kaydm

I tried to capture Maggie and Lonnie cavorting this afternoon, but they were too quick for me. I'll try tomorrow. Kay


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## kaydm

Forgot to say I'd dearly love to be able to capture Maggie in the early morning jumping like a little deer thru the dewy grass. So cute.


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## kaydm




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## kaydm

This pic was yesterday after bath and haircut. Maggie is not thrilled. Kay


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## kaydm

This pic was last Monday when the wind caught Maggie's hair:


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## Kathie

She might not be happy about it but she looks adorable!


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## krandall

She doesn't look thrilled, but she sure is pretty!


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## hedygs

What a face. She's sweet.


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## kaydm

Maggie has a new game. She takes the microfiber cloths I use to wipe her feet out into the yard. Also, almost every day I play with a dog soft toy and talk about it while she's watching. Then I put is partway under the cushion on the wicker chair on the porch. Now I am finding it out in the yard. I think it's fun to put it back and she thinks it's fun to sneak it out.

Here's Maggie looking a little happier after brushing which she appears to enjoy:


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## davetgabby

aaaahhh Kay she is precious. What a cheeky smile. Keep up the playing. Very important. You're doing great. Send more pics.


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## maryam187

Kay, welcome to the forum!!! I SO enjoyed discovering your thread and reading through all your days like a diary. You are doing wonderfully with little Maggie and her eyes are just melting my heart on the last pic. Keep up the good work!


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## susieg

Hi Kay! I'm new to the forum but have been reading through your posts and been routing for you & Maggie!

My last doggie was a rescue [not a havanese] and she was so shy and scared when we first got her, my husband & I think she'd been abused/neglected. It took her a long time to play, we thought she just wasn't a playful dog. But after about 2 or 3 months of love and patience she totally surprised us started playing with her toys and came out of her shell. Once she learned she could trust us her personality came out & she was happy and playful. She was always a little shy to strangers and other dogs, but turned out to be a loving and wonderful pet.

Keep up the good work! It sounds like you're making great progress. Maggie is SO adorable, I just love those puppy dog eyes!


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## Jill in Mich

Great pictures Kay! Thanks!!! I love her haircut and that last picture is especially adorable. It sounds like Maggie is making great strides - isn't it fun to see her start enjoying the world?


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## marjrc

Kay, I had tears in my eyes reading about the newfound friendship and play time with the Hav next door. How moving it must have been to see Maggie's tail wagging and her having a great time. It sounds like you are doing everything right by her. With patience, that you obviously have, and love, well.. duh ! ... you and Maggie will continue bonding and she will only grow more and more confident and joyful. Thank you for that! 

She looks great! Such deep big eyes, and very pretty.


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## kaydm

Marj, I'm not sure, but I think I saw in my peripheral vision Maggie wag her tail as I was talking to her. Now I'm really wanting that tail wag for me as much and as hard as it did for her dog buddies. Kay


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## davetgabby

Geeeze Marj aren't you in bed yet? Did you hear Environment Canada is calling for a mild winter?


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## kaydm

Ok, I just have to ask. Do any of you wash your dog's face? That last pic I posted has supper all over her face. Kay


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## davetgabby

yeah since Mollly has been on canned she needs the occasional mouth washing. If it gets too gummed up it is hard to get out. LOL


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## Jill in Mich

Yep, I have to wash both of mine and they hate it but they usually have as much dinner in their whiskers as they got in their mouth.


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## kudo2u

Kay,

I just read this entire thread, and I'm so excited to hear about you and Maggie! I rescued a girl from a backyard breeder. She was in worse shape than Maggie when I got her, and it took quite a while for her personality to come out. I've had her about 4 years now, and she's just an amazing little dog now! You're doing sooooo well, just keep after it and don't give up! I'm STILL seeing new behaviors after all this time!

As for face washing, there is a product called "Spa Lavish Facial Scrub" that I use on Tango about 3 times a week. I just put a bit on a damp washcloth, lather it up, and use a clean (damp) washcloth to rinse the suds. It keeps her very clean, doesn't seem to dry out her coat at all (as some cleaners can do), and it smells wonderful! One bottle lasts several months.

I haven't found anybody local to me who carries this product, but this is where I order it from:

http://www.petdiscounters.com/Spa-Lavish-Pet-Fresh-Facial-Scrub-Blue-Berry-Vanilla-p6356.html

Congrats on all of your progress, and keep up the good work!


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## kaydm

Thank you for your post. Something new just happened. Maggie had been in my computer room with me for about 2 hours. I put her outside and left the kitchen door ajar. After about 10 minutes, she came swooping in and settled back down on the rug. Wow. That was very new that she wants to be with me even if it is just to nap at my feet. Kay


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## Jill in Mich

Sounds like Maggie is starting to get the idea of what it means to be a Hav!


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## davetgabby

Beautiful.


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## Lunastar

Congrats on your little Maggie. Sounds like she will just need some TLC and time to come out of her shell. She is beautiful.


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## ScarlettBlue

*Puppy Facial*

In regards to the question about washing our sweet-doggies faces, I give my baby what I can a 1/2 bath all the time. I wash his feet and face. I actually have some stuff called Blueberry Facial that is suppose to reduce staining on the face.


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## CinnCinn

I just read all 19 pages of this thread and loved reading about you, Kay & Maggie. What a heart warming story. I especially loved reading about her playing with the Hav next door. I truly believe a Havanese KNOWS another Havanese. 

Congratulations, sounds like perfect match! Keep posting. More pictures too!


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## kaydm

Hi Cindy, I may try to get a pic or two of Maggie tomorrow with the trainer.

My neighbor called me to come over early this evening to give me fresh baked muffins. She apologized that her Hav isn't puppy playful like mine. I told her no need for apology as her dog is over 8 years old and mine is 2 1/2. It seems now that the novelty has worn off, the Hav next door isn't keen on being in the same yard with mine. 

But I have a friend with a puggle and a friend with a Jack Russell wussy girl who both want playdates with Maggie. Should be fun. Kay


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## BeverlyA

Welcome Kay!

I'm just now finding this beautiful thread about you and Maggie and it sure put a smile on my face. 

What a wonderful, patient mommy you've been to Maggie. So many others would have just given her up rather than put time, effort and love into her rehab. 

You've gotten such terrific advice and you've made such huge strides! I believe there is also information on the HRI website, which is the Havanese rescue group.

We have a dog that was a puppy mill puppy and she has some fear-aggression issues. We also have a Maltese rescue that had many of the same issues that Maggie has. We especially struggle with food aggression and attention aggression. 

I've gotten an older dog and even when they don't come with so much baggage, they keep changing and showing new parts of their personalities for a long time, it's such a fabulous adventure!

Kay, you are a real angel here on earth. Thank you for taking such good care of little Maggie. You will be each others best friends in no time.

This forum is a wealth of information, inspiration and sounding board. 
Don't forget to check out the TTouch if that interests you. I went to a class demonstration of it last year and I bet you and Maggie would love it!

Beverly


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## ScarlettBlue

*New Puppy*

Kaydm,

the more I read about your adventures with Maggie, the more i am reminded of when I first brought my Zipper home. In the early days I was taking him for a walk and a truck came by on the street and made a loud noise. Zipper bolted, pulling the leash right out of my hand, I had to chase him for three or four blocks. In those early days everything scared him.

It took a long time to get Zipper to be less fearful. My husband said the other day they heard a noise outside and Zipper barked but jumped up into my husbands lap at the same time - was it to protect my husband or because he was afraid? I think he is still somewhat fearful but is secure with us. Your Maggie will learn that she is secure with you. :angel:


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## kaydm

Thank you to the last 2 posters for sharing your experience with me.

This morning the trainer came. His arrival was announced by the Hav next door who seems to bark loudly at only men. The trainer loved the story of Maggie meeting the neighbor dogs.

This morning we worked on checking out Maggie's comfort level with Dan, the trainer, being closer to her as I fed her lamb treats and practiced saying good before I dropped them as I moved closer and closer to Dan. By the end of our time, Dan was able to be 5 feet away from Maggie without her shaking or bolting as compared to 20 feet away when we started.

No pics as I was kept too busy.

I just love her. Kay


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## davetgabby

Good stuff . Keep us posted Kay.


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## marjrc

How wonderful, Kay! I'm grinning here. 

Dave, a "mild winter"? HA ! I'll believe when I see it! lol


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## Lunastar

Wonderful news, Kay. Please keep us up to date on Maggies progress.


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## kaydm

I forgot to say that the trainer tried to have me lure Maggie out of her crate with peanut butter on a wooden spoon. Unfortunately, I had already tried that over a week ago. Maggie not only doesn't like my no additive healthy peanut butter, but she doesn't like the cheap stuff either. lol.

It looks like the leash training will have to wait until after she's spayed. I will so love it when she can be led out of her crate. My knees are still good and I guess I should be grateful for the workout each morning. Kay


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## kaydm

Ok, Now I know I really have a Havanese. Was gone from the porch just a few minutes. When I came back Maggie was standing near a shredded pile of a piece of paper towel looking very pleased with herself. I just laughed right out loud and told her that now I really did know she's a true Havanese. Just tickled me. Kay


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## Lunastar

Ah so wonderful to see her little hav personality shining through.


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## davetgabby

kaydm said:


> Ok, Now I know I really have a Havanese. Was gone from the porch just a few minutes. When I came back Maggie was standing near a shredded pile of a piece of paper towel looking very pleased with herself. I just laughed right out loud and told her that now I really did know she's a true Havanese. Just tickled me. Kay


Whenever someone mentions paper shredding ,it reminds me of my breeder's site check this picture out. http://www.havalane.com/resources.html


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## Lunastar

Dave that is hysterical.


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## Missy

Kay! Maggie is doing so well and she is so, so, so beautiful! Are her eyes blue? or very light? 

Oh and just a word of advice... never ask this group if you need another Hav unless you want to be convinced you do!


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## kaydm

Thanks for the advice, Missy. Maggie's eyes are dark amber with black rings around them. The rings almost make her eyes look cartoonish in pics. Kay


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## BeverlyA

Kay,

I didn't know how to break this to you....but *nobody *has only one Havanese! Might as well just face that fact from the beginning. :gossip:

So glad things are going so well! Keep up the fabulous work!

Beverly


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## Lynn

kaydm said:


> Marj, I'm not sure, but I think I saw in my peripheral vision Maggie wag her tail as I was talking to her. Now I'm really wanting that tail wag for me as much and as hard as it did for her dog buddies. Kay


Kay,
I just read this thread all 19 pages and you have so beautifully described it all, and all the help from the forum members was just amazing.

But, this post really caught my eye...I have a shy girl and I love her tail wagging at me. The tail tells it all, do what you can to get Maggie's tail to wagging....I talk alot of baby talk to my Missy, she loves it.

I am thinking when you get Maggie to come out of her shell you will have an amazing relationship with this dog.


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## Scooter's Family

Hi Kay-I too just found this thread and read it all! What a wonderful story you tell about your time with Maggie to date, she sounds like a scared little girl who is learning how to be loved. Poor thing, these dogs are so loving and social, I can't imagine them being left alone in another building. My two are always where I am and I wouldn't have it any other way!

It's so easy to fall in love with a bouncy little puppy but what you're doing shows true dedication and determination. This little girl is lucky to have you in her life!


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## kaydm

Lynn and Ann what kind thoughts and comments.

Maggie has taken to wandering into my computer room when I'm here and checking me out and settling in for a nap. A little while ago though, she checked out the chewablity of the handles to the stretchy things on the rock n roller exerciser.


----------



## maryam187

Sounds and looks like she's becoming a normal, mischievous Hav


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## kaydm

Yes, isn't that great? On Thursday morning I have to drop her off to be spayed and I will miss her terribly. Oh boy, this little thing has sure gotten to me. Kay


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## Lunastar

Oh kay isn't it amazing how they just slip in and steal your heart~


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## hvapuppy2

kaydm said:


> Yes, isn't that great? On Thursday morning I have to drop her off to be spayed and I will miss her terribly. Oh boy, this little thing has sure gotten to me. Kay


The spay is was so hard for me, when I picked Bella up from the vet's she cried to me...it's so sad for them...but it's got to be done I know. :Cry:

But they bounce back really quick too. I hope all goes well, I know it's harder for the older dogs.

the shredded paper story is sooo funny!

I know people who try to pass their dogs off as Hav's but ask them the paper shredding trait and you know for sure! :hug:

A


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## kaydm

My neighbor just asked me to Hav-sit her girl Lonnie for 7 hours Thursday. Since Maggie will be in the hospital, I will love having Lonnie to care for. Besides, Lonnie gives great kisses. I have instructred Maggie to take notes. Kay


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## davetgabby

Kay,is she having laser surgery.?


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## kaydm

I don't know.


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## davetgabby

Not sure if it is an option with your vet. But here we had the choice of conventional surgery or laser. Laser is much easier on them. Less invasive ,small incision healing is faster, less pain. More money though. Poor little duffs.


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## kaydm

Dave it never occured to me to ask. Is it harder on a dog of 2 1/2 like Maggie than a pup? What happens to her physically immediately after when she comes home? I think I will be asking some questions tomorrow.


----------



## davetgabby

not sure if is any harder on an adult. All that I know is that Molly was not even out of sorts the next day. She wanted to play right away. Maybe someone with more experience could tell you if they noticed a big difference .


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## Lunastar

My girls were both over two when I was finally able to get them spayed. They were just fine. I will say they gained one pound the first month after being spayed. Yes they two weeks with minimal exercise. Since they gained that pound they have each put on another. After two months of cutting back on food and treats they are no longer gaining. Not losing any weight either though.


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## Lynn

Thinking of Maggie tonight, love the last picture you posted of her. Wishing her fast recovery from her surgery.


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## marjrc

It is so wonderful reading about your and Maggie's progress (and her shenanigans  ) I hope she does very well during and after her surgery. I also hope she isn't too fearful and regresses, though it might only be before the operation as afterwards, she'll no doubt be a little sleepy. Once she's back home with you, Maggie will be just fine and know all is right with her world.


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## kaydm

Thanks for the good wishes.

Luna, my dog is 9 pounds, 9 oz. at least she was a couple weeks ago. She feels heavier now. The trainer is big on using her food as treats for behavior wanted. My neighbor is horrified as she thinks praise is enough. Trainer says praise only works on dogs who are herders and want to be told they are doing a good job.

I'll certainly be attentive to her food and weight after. Thanks. Kay


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## Lunastar

I use praise and food. There may be a situation someday when I need them to sit right away and not have a treat handy. Bella weighed 9.6 when she went in for the spay. 

Oh don't forget the onesie! They work great and eliminated the need for the cone with my girls.


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## kaydm

Luna, what is a onesie?


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## Jill in Mich

Kay,

A "onesie" is a little human infant outfit? Instead of having to put one of those nasty cones on Maggie if she tries to chew at her stitches, you can put a onesie on her instead. It's much more comfortable for her (and for you to see). You may not need anything but just in case....

Regarding just using praise....you might want to read Jean Donaldson's "Culture Clash" - it does a very good job of giving you a perspective on the world from the dogs point of view. It's Jean's belief that praise alone doesn't get you very far when training - you need to work with what motivates the dog which is usually food or may be playing/fetching a toy but is rarely just praise (that would be what motivates many humans!). If you're concerned about her gaining weight because she's getting too many treats, you can always use something like the Natural Balance Rolls that are well balanced and then cut back on the amount of food she's given at meal time. 

Dave, what are the other books you most recommend?


----------



## Scooter's Family

For training I use really tiny bits of treats and my guys still come running. I buy chicken jerky and cut it with kitchen shears into bites the size of or smaller than a raisin. You can also use bits of baby carrots, apple, or boiled chicken. If they like the treat enough they'll work for a small bit.

If you use a onesie, put it on so the front of it is on her back and pull the snap portion up through her legs. Snap the outside snaps and leave the center one open for her tail. Here's a pic of Murphy after his neuter...


----------



## Lynn

Kay,
I know alot people had really good luck with the onesie.

It is a good idea to have a couple of things to try after surgery so they don't lick the area. With Casper he got to upset with me when I had to get the onesie off or up so he could potty, and that cone that vet sent home was to big, so I went to Petco and got one of the inflatable type neck bands and he loved that. 

I had to try a couple of things, I wanted to be sure he was comfortable.


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## kaydm

Lynn please tell me more about the inflatable neck band. 

I just know Maggie will not do well with a cone. Nor will she let me catch her to put clothes on her. 

Thanks, Kay


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## Lynn

kaydm said:


> Lynn please tell me more about the inflatable neck band.
> 
> I just know Maggie will not do well with a cone. Nor will she let me catch her to put clothes on her.
> 
> Thanks, Kay


Kay,
It is called ProCollar, I got is at Petco...it was $28.00. I got a small for Casper 11 pounds. and you inflat it and it has velcro strap to attach. Casper really loved his.... it did cause some matting, but I kept up brushing the area really good.

I will try to find a picture of him in it. I think it is on the thread I had when he got neutered....let me go look for it.


----------



## Lynn

This is a picture of him in his collar

http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=6785&page=4

I forgot his was so cute in it....


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## kaydm

Lynn and Jill - thanks for the info about onesies. If I had had the foresight to have children and then grandchildren, perhaps I would have known. Great pic of your boy in tthe onesie.


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## kaydm

Lynn thank you for finding the wonderful pics of the inflatable collar. It looks perfect for the need. Kay


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## Lunastar

She won't be too hard to catch the first day. Poor baby will still be feeling the effects of the drugs. 

As for training I use both treats and praise. Once they know the command well I have them do it occassionally for just praise. More often they get the treat and praise. I don't always have treats with me since they are on special food and I have to use that for their treats too.


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## davetgabby

Jill in Mich said:


> Kay,
> 
> A "onesie" is a little human infant outfit? Instead of having to put one of those nasty cones on Maggie if she tries to chew at her stitches, you can put a onesie on her instead. It's much more comfortable for her (and for you to see). You may not need anything but just in case....
> 
> Regarding just using praise....you might want to read Jean Donaldson's "Culture Clash" - it does a very good job of giving you a perspective on the world from the dogs point of view. It's Jean's belief that praise alone doesn't get you very far when training - you need to work with what motivates the dog which is usually food or may be playing/fetching a toy but is rarely just praise (that would be what motivates many humans!). If you're concerned about her gaining weight because she's getting too many treats, you can always use something like the Natural Balance Rolls that are well balanced and then cut back on the amount of food she's given at meal time.
> 
> Dave, what are the other books you most recommend?


You're right Jill, Jean's recommendation is to find out what motivates the dog. Every dog is different. Gosh as far as books I'll give you just three for now. 
1. The Other End Of The Leash by Patricia McConnell PH.D.
2. When Pigs Fly by Jane Killion. 
3.Excelerated Learning by Pamela Reid Ph.D.


----------



## kaydm

Maggie had her playmate, Toby, a Westie/Chi mix, visit to play. They tore around the yard and had a great time. Fun to watch.


----------



## Scooter's Family

She's so cute!!!

We used the inflatable collar too, it works well and is easy to get on and off.


----------



## kaydm

Thanks, Ann. I will definitely look into it. Have already called Petco, and is in stock. Kay


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## BeverlyA

Good luck tomorrow for Maggies surgery, I know it will go smoothly.

She looks so much like my little Emma in that second picture!

If PetSmart is closer to you, I got an inflatable collar there.


We will all be thinking of her and sending her good vibes and positive feelings, and for you too! :angel:

Beverly


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## kaydm

Beverly, thanks for the good wishes. Maggie has the goofiest sleeping positions I think. Kay


----------



## davetgabby

Hey Kay. Here is a little article from my buddy Ian.LOL 
Neutering Fact Sheet 
It might even improve your dog's social life. 
By Dr. Ian Dunbar 
Spaying
There is much confusion concerning the physiological and behavioral effects of spaying. Some people feel that spaying will prompt a marked personality change and cause the bitch to become fat and ugly. Spaying has no deleterious effects on the bitch's personality whatsoever. If anything it makes her more predictable, relaxed and amenable-a better companion. It is true that oestrous hormones cause a reduced food intake and higher general activity, and since spaying removes the source of ovarian hormones, spayed bitches may tend to eat slightly more and exercise slightly less. However, you may easily rectify this situation by exercising your bitch a bit more and/or feeding her a bit less! 
If you are not going to breed your bitch, have her spayed as soon as possible, and avoid potential complicated and costly obstetrical problems later in her life. A bitch with ovaries and uterus intact stands a progressively increasing risk of developing pyometra (pus in the uterus) as she gets older. It is far safer and cheaper to opt for a routine elective ovariohysterectomy now, than to risk the possibility of an extremely expensive, emergency and life-threatening operation when she is older


----------



## kaydm

Thanks, Dave, my main concern was how will Maggie be acting when I bring her home. And how will I take care of her needs. I will be spending some time tomorrow talking this all over at the vet's.

Very good info. Thanks


----------



## davetgabby

we can identify with you Kay. Don't worry she will be fine. Piece of cake.


----------



## Lunastar

Kay I'll be saying a few prayers for you and Maggie tomorrow. I know how nerve wracking this is. She will probably just want to lay aorund for day or so. I know I was worried about trying to keep the girls quiet for a few weeks. The first week was no problem. The second week was a bit difficult because they wanted to play with each other. I would think with only one that shouldn't be too difficult.


----------



## luv3havs

*suggestion*

Maybe the vet's assistant could put the onesie on Maggie before she wakes up completely and you won't have to do it yourself.

Good luck with the spaying. We had an easy time wih Cali's, although she was 6 months old when it was done. The hardest thing was keeping her quiet.


----------



## BeverlyA

Waiting to hear how Maggie did today. Hope it all went smoothly and it wasn't too stressful for you either!

Beverly


----------



## maryam187

I too hope the spay went well and Maggie is comfortably resting near her patient and loving momma. Who knows, it may even improve your bonding experience with her if she allows you to comfort her.


----------



## davetgabby

Yeah Kay ,we're waiting to hear from you. Just wondering who of you had laser surgery for their girls? Because Molly had it ,and she was back to normal the second day after.


----------



## kaydm

Thanks everyone for asking about Maggie. The report is that she is doing well after surgery. However, she now is wearing a cone because she chewed through her IV line. Apparently, now she isn't very happy but eating well. I get to pick her up tomorrow at 11 am.

I guess keeping that thing on her will be a challenge, probably with me dealing with it one minute at a time. Kay


----------



## BeverlyA

Kay, the inflatable cone is much better. I'm guessing that's not what they have at the vet.

Maggie will be SOO happy to get home to you!

Beverly


----------



## maryam187

Poor baby. But I don't see why you can't put the inflatable cone on her once she's home since she won't have her IV line anymore. If you think she may not let you touch her, then take it with you and let the vet's assistants put it on her.


----------



## kaydm

I checked around for the inflatible collar and couldn't find one small enough for her. So I guess it will be the cone. I just really don't see putting clothing on Maggie as wild as she is. I really hate cornering her. Can't wait til she and I get some more training.


----------



## Lunastar

She will be fine with the cone. She may not like it but it doens't hurt them. Cornering her would not be a good thing. Glad to hear she came through the surgery fine.


----------



## Scooter's Family

Hope you guys are doing well, poor baby Maggie. She'll bounce back so fast!


----------



## kaydm

Maggie is now home. A little unsteady on her feet. She's wearing a clear cone, velcro closure. She's run into wall and door already, but seems to be figuring it out. She seems to want to be where I am, so I'm planning my moves to stay longer in each room while she rests on a little rug.

The news on her teeth is that all are good but with some enamel worn down. The before pics were disturbing in that they show almost all her teeth coated silver from a long period of time chewing metal per the vet. Boy my anger flared at that piece of info. How dare that breeder leave Maggie so alone and so bored that she chewed metal. I'm just sick.

The good news on her teeth is that they removed the silver and have a plan for me to follow. The baby step this next week will be daily handling her lips while petting her head. I felt so anxious about that but will calm myself and start doing it tomorrow.

When I removed her collar so she could eat, I caught her just in time starting to move her head to her tummy. Since she had eaten it all, I quickly replaced the collar. She will be wearing it until a week from tomorrow. I will be so happy when it comes off. Kay


----------



## Scooter's Family

How awful for the poor little thing, chewing on metal! :frusty:

Glad she's home with you where you can watch her and give her lots of love.


----------



## Lynn

Kay,
I am so glad to hear Maggie is home and ok. I just put Casper on the bed with me and laid with him when he first came home. He had the chills and I covered him with a blanket. I don't know if you read all his thread, but he was not feeling good for a couple of days. He was over 2 yrs. old and had a high ALT reading.

If Maggie has any problems with her cone, I can sent you my inflatable collar. Just let me know.


----------



## kaydm

Lynn you are so kind. Thanks foir the offer. 

I would be so scared of chills.


----------



## Lynn

kaydm said:


> Lynn you are so kind. Thanks foir the offer.
> 
> I would be so scared of chills.


Kay,
You just let me know if you would like to try that collar....I have a business UPS account and I can ship it to you when ever you need it. I just want to help Maggie.


----------



## davetgabby

Aaahhh Lyn, you are a dear. You'll be fine Kay and so will Maggie. Boy I can't say I went through any of this with Molly. No collar no nothing. Just one sleepy day following surgery. Keep us posted.


----------



## kaydm

Lucky you, Dave. Awhile ago I put Maggie's collar on with a leash and carried her out to her pee spot. I stood quietly with my back to her for 10 minutes but no pee. So brought her in and put down a little food. While watching her, answered the phone and then had to say I'd call back as Maggie was putting her nose to her incision. So now she's back in here on the rug in her cone. Man, I'm ready for bed right now.


----------



## davetgabby

sounds like it has been harder on you than it has been on Maggied. Call it an early night. You deserve a rest . You have been a wonderful mom.


----------



## Scooter's Family

We had to use the cone and then the collar on Scooter and used the collar on Murphy after they were neutered. I think it is harder on us because we worry so much, it would be nice if they could tell us how they're feeling.
You're doing great so try not to be too worried. You'll see improvement every day and before you know it she'll be running around and playing before you know it.


----------



## Lunastar

YOu are doing great Kay, Maggie is lucky to have you. I can't believe they left her so alone. These puppy mill people just steam me up.


----------



## kaydm

Took Maggie 2 more times but she didn't pee. Well, I put her in her crate for the night. I'm ready to head off to bed too. Earlier had Maggie in my lap gently petting her. In her drug stupor I bet she's now really confused at my behavior with her.


----------



## Scooter's Family

Even in her drugged state she can feel your compassion and love. Hope you both get some rest and feel better tomorrow.


----------



## davetgabby

Ann's right go to bed. Tomorrow will be a better day.


----------



## bridget123

We adopted a 5 month old who exhibits a lot of your pups characteristics.(we already had a 6 month old). She is now a little over 1 and is still shy & does growl @ certain family members. Not at all what we signed up for. We are very patient with her & hope the behavior will change. Good luck!


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## kaydm

Ok I probably overreacted. I called the vet as Maggie slept 10 hours and her crate was dry. Took her out this am twice and she did not pee. She ate all her food and drank a little water, but still no indication she had to go outside.

The vet had me bring Maggie in and checked her temp. The vet told me Maggie peed when they removed her from the crate. Ok that's good. And her temp is good.

I was able to give her the oral pain med once I figured out where her mouth opens. Don't laugh. This is all new to me. It wasn't hard to do, thank goodness. She's just laying there looking at me with very woeful eyes.


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## Sheri

Poor baby! Even MORE poor momma!


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## Scooter's Family

I was nervous giving medicine the first time too, now I put it into a tiny prep cup and they lap it right up.

After you give her the medicine tonight it would be medicinal for you to have a very large cocktail!


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## davetgabby

The worst is over Kay. yep have a drink to celebrate.


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## ScarlettBlue

kaydm said:


> I checked around for the inflatible collar and couldn't find one small enough for her. So I guess it will be the cone. I just really don't see putting clothing on Maggie as wild as she is. I really hate cornering her. Can't wait til she and I get some more training.


Kay,
I am so impressed with your patience and commitment to Maggie. I was so exhausted the first months with Zipper and he wasn't a rescue. Sounds like you doing all you can to let her begin to feel more secure and safe in her new home. Hang in there. She'll reward you with so much love.


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## Lunastar

{{{KAY}}} Tomorrow will be easier than today. I agree treat yourself to a cocktail or an ice cream sundae.


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## kaydm

Thanks for the advice on how to treat myself everyone. My goal since January was to lose enough weight that I could get off blood pressure medication and improve my cholestoral readings. Well, I did it! So tonite I'm eating some cantalope while reading here. Can't undo a good thing.

Maggie is in her crate for the night. She is so stressed per the vet that she is holding her urine. She has not gone since I took her to the vet. So don't know how she'll do tonite in her crate. Everytime I took her outside, she just crouched or stood stock still. I would turn my back and stand there silently by her for 10 minutes or more, but nothing. Something has to change soon.

I padded her crate with towels tonite in case I have to do laundry tomorrow.

Anyone have any suggestions? I have had her since Aug. 21st. I always let her go out by herself in the yard, leaving the door to the porch open so she could come and go. She was so good not to her business in the house. The vet told me not to do that now so she couldn't hurt her incision. She told me to take her out on the leash. Maggie is not used to the leach, so I carry her out. So, Maggie and I are not used to this. I think this is stressing her too.


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## BeverlyA

I wonder if Maggie is peeing when she is crouching, that it is just a different position because of the surgery and the cone and the leash?

One of my dogs doesn't like to pee while on a leash, so I try to sit down and relax, maybe even have a book to take away all the stress.

Make sure she keeps drinking water. You can check her gums to see that they aren't turning white. 

You're being such a wonderful Hav mommy! Take good care of yourself too.


Beverly


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## davetgabby

Kay ,just keep taking her out ,forget the leash if she is not used to it. Use your go pee word and be ready to reward her.


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## kaydm

Today I took her cone off to get her relaxed. She ate some of her food. No concern there. Then just as I was going to pick her up to take her outside, the little stinker darted out. I just watched her to make sure she wouldn't lick or bite at staples. She peed a long time and pooped. Yay. So I guess for her in her recovery 24 hours is normal. I guess if my gut hurt too I wouldn't be too anxious to eliminate either.

Cone back on her head and she's back lying near me while I'm on the computer. Kay


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## kaydm

Dave, from the start of having Maggie here, I just let her go in and out at will from the open porch door. So I have no experience taking her out to do her biz.

My neighbor puts her dog out the door at set intervals thru the day as well, not going out with her dog. 

I can see with Maggie's recovery that having a way to walk the dog out to pee spot with a set command would be very helpful.


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## maryam187

Good stuff! I was just going to suggest to carry her outside w/o a leash and let her down to potty and carry her back inside. Guess Maggie had different plans, LOL.


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## Lunastar

Hooray Maggie, good peepee/poopies. You must be so relieved. Good for you getting off the medication.


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## davetgabby

Kay ,her is a reason to go out with her most of the time. 
Why not just leave the puppy outdoors until he is housetrained? 

Who is going to housetrain your pup outside — a shrub? If the dog is left outside unattended, he will become an indiscriminate eliminator. Basically, your puppy will learn to go wherever he wants, whenever he wants, and he will likely do the same whenever you let him indoors. Puppies left outdoors and unsupervised for long periods of time seldom become housetrained. Also, they tend to become indiscriminate barkers, chewers, diggers, and escapists, and they may be more easily stolen. Outdoor puppies also become so excited on the few occasions they are invited indoors that eventually they are no longer allowed inside at all. It is a good way to reward them and it is good to know that they have gone and everything is good. Although this is meant for puppies it is important also for older dogs. I don't always go out with Molly but it is a good way to reinforce things. Things are looking good. The big thing is that she enjoys being with you. You are doing great.


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## marjrc

Poor little Maggie. So glad to hear she seems back to her normal self now though. I wouldn't worry too much about her activity levels, Kay. If it hurts, she won't do it - that's how I feel. Of course, if she were a nutso, jumping from couch to couch, I might want to curb that, but I don't think that's Maggie's case. lol Once she relaxes and you relax, she'll be back to her usual 'schedule' and activities.


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## marjrc

bridget123 said:


> We adopted a 5 month old who exhibits a lot of your pups characteristics.(we already had a 6 month old). She is now a little over 1 and is still shy & does growl @ certain family members. Not at all what we signed up for. We are very patient with her & hope the behavior will change. Good luck!


It isn't easy when a dog is shy and fear aggressive. This must be nipped in the bud though. It will only get harder and harder to erase this behavior. There may be 'valid' reasons to the puppy to do this, but that doesn't make it right. Have you considered hiring a canine behaviorist for one or two sessions? It might help.


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## davetgabby

marjrc said:


> It isn't easy when a dog is shy and fear aggressive. This must be nipped in the bud though. It will only get harder and harder to erase this behavior. There may be 'valid' reasons to the puppy to do this, but that doesn't make it right. Have you considered hiring a canine behaviorist for one or two sessions? It might help.


Hi Bridget, sorry I missed your reply. Leave it up to Marj to heed your call. I would agree with Marj on this one . This sort of thing doesn't go away on its own. You might want to look at a trainer to show you some classical conditioning exercises for your dog. Maybe start a new thread and give us some more details.


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## hvapuppy2

davetgabby said:


> Hi Bridget, sorry I missed your reply. Leave it up to Marj to heed your call. I would agree with Marj on this one . This sort of thing doesn't go away on its own. You might want to look at a trainer to show you some classical conditioning exercises for your dog. Maybe start a new thread and give us some more details.


Yes good idea Dave! or some operant conditioning 
and a visit to the vet -- could even be something as simple as a bladder infection causing the dog to be aggressive to certain people.


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## davetgabby

hvapuppy2 said:


> Yes good idea Dave! or some operant conditioning
> and a visit to the vet -- could even be something as simple as a bladder infection causing the dog to be aggressive to certain people.


Sure some good ole positive reinforcement can help just about anything. But you are also right about the vet. Quite often we overlook behaviior problems and don't think they can be the result of a health issue. Prime example is the thread Dental Care that is posted now. Check that out to see how the teeth problem was playing on the dogs personality. Right on.


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## kaydm

Thanks Marj. Maggie was considerably more active today. That just means that she actually walked around the yard. When the cone is on her head, she just mopes in one spot, so I move her from room to room and rug to rug.

When she has to go do her business, I take the cone off and watch her very carefully. When she noses her tummy, I just say no and she stops. Only twice today. When she's back inside, the cone goes back on as I don't have eyes in the back of my head.


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## davetgabby

Kay ,how long do you have to keep it on yet.?


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## Lunastar

OH Kay Maggie is being such a good girl. Glad she is feeling a little better. YOu sound better too.


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## kaydm

Dave, Vet said to keep it on til staples come out this Saturday. I have for the last 2 days taken it off when she's by me in the house. I put it back on at night and during the day if I will be preoccupied and can't watch every minute. So far she is good about not licking or biting her tummy when it's off. Course that's when she's napping mostly.


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## kaydm

I'm not so scared now, Luna. Never having been a mom with kids or grandkids nor ever having a dog, I was afraid I would be inadequate to taking care of her. But just by taking things one thing at a time, so far it's all working out. Each day I feel better.


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## kaydm

Luna, forgot to say the biggest deal for me was figuring out how to open her mouth to inject the liquid pain med. Three days, three successes and now that's done. Yay


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## davetgabby

You're doing great Kay. I have to laugh when I give Molly her monthly flea pill. I hide it in a teaspoon of peanut buttter and she still will find it and spit it out. LOL.


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## hvapuppy2

Kay, I also noticed that Bella was a bit different after her spay. She never used to grumble but after her spay she grumbled when picked up...to this day (6 years later) if she is sleeping and is moved she grumbles, it sounds like a growl and well frankly it is ha ha...but we call it a grumble 

Not to say that this behavior is ok, it's not, but it is also not the biggest deal. (Rationalization I know) but I know my Bella and she's so good in every other possible way, so we cut her slack in this department.

What I'm trying to say, is yes we don't want Molly resorting to fear aggression, but a little flexibility may be allowed. Others may not agree and maybe they're right, hard to say... each dog and family is different. I just thought I'd put my thoughts out there for you.

Angela


----------



## Scooter's Family

Kay - You're doing so well, don't be so hard on yourself. I am a mom and I didn't have a clue what to do with a puppy when we brought him home! And even when we brought home the second one almost a year later we were nervous all over again. You're nervous because you love her and want to do things properly for her! I so love my dogs and caring for them when they're ill and so defenseless really forms a special bond.


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## kaydm

Angela and Ann, thanks so much for your remarks.

Maggie is more herself today. I left the cone off all day as she was with me as I marked, pinned, cut, and shortened 6 pairs of pant and jeans for my very short friend. My friend was so kind to me while I was in the hospital. I jumped at the chance to do something nice for her.

Today, I baked another chicken and used itsy-bitsy bits to bribe Maggie. I think I taught her IN and OUT today. Not once did I have to pick her up to take her out and put her back in. Yay. 

Since I was at my sewing machine all day, I needed regular breaks. I told Maggie she needed the same breaks, so that's when I worked on IN and OUT. I just made it up with no recommendation from the trainer. I just get tired of bending down to pick Maggie up. She has 4 legs and ought to use them, don't you think? Kay


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## kaydm

I forgot to add that my IN and OUT commands are accompanied by what can only be described as airport plane handler arm motions, minus the flares of course. lol


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## Scooter's Family

I think it's great you're having her walk. That was one of the first things my vet said when I brought Scooter in. She told me he was not an "accessory" and he should be walking, not carried around all the time.


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## Sheri

kaydm said:


> I forgot to add that my IN and OUT commands are accompanied by what can only be described as airport plane handler arm motions, minus the flares of course. lol


ound: I got a kick out this! I can just picture it...because I tend to do the same thing once we are out in the yard! When Tucker is not getting with it, and I need him to finish, I wave my arm in a huge sweep out over the grass and tell him to "go potty now". Usually, it works, too.


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## Lunastar

kaydm said:


> I'm not so scared now, Luna. Never having been a mom with kids or grandkids nor ever having a dog, I was afraid I would be inadequate to taking care of her. But just by taking things one thing at a time, so far it's all working out. Each day I feel better.


Wow Kay you are doing so well. I didn't realize you had never had a dog before. You are a natural! Maggie is a lucky lucky girl.


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## davetgabby

Sheri said:


> ound: I got a kick out this! I can just picture it...because I tend to do the same thing once we are out in the yard! When Tucker is not getting with it, and I need him to finish, I wave my arm in a huge sweep out over the grass and tell him to "go potty now". Usually, it works, too.


That reminds me Sheri, never get a new puppy until winter is over. I froze my ass off waiting for Molly.


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## kaydm

Thanks, Luna. I was always a cat person during my working years. A few years ago I developed allergies around cats. Now that I'm retired, it seemed that I had time for a dog. I thought about that off and on for about 3-4 years. Then meeting the Hav next door made me really want my very own.

Now here's the funny part. Lonnie, the Hav next door could care about other dogs, but she loves people. I love her waggy tail and doggy kisses. She ignores my Maggie who moves right up next to me as if to say, ok you can leave now. 

Maggie loves all dogs and skitters away from people. Both dogs had similar backgrounds.


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## Lynn

Kay,
I love reading this thread. I have had dogs and cats all my life....years now (expecting my first grandchild- to give you a idea) I so admire how you seem to know what to do for Maggie with no dog experience. 

Your doing a good job- Maggie has a good Mom, you guys will be the BEST of buds soon!!


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## lcy_pt

davetgabby said:


> That reminds me Sheri, never get a new puppy until winter is over. I froze my ass off waiting for Molly.


This made me LOL Dave! _I_ too trained the boys outside last winter during many a blizzard and waaaaaaaaaaay below freezing temp. Notice the emphasis on the word I. As in...everyone else inside staying warm and drinking hot chocolate!:tea:


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## Jill in Mich

Kay, reading through some of the other threads, I don't know if you've considered taking a training class with Maggie at some point in the future but I think you would find it very beneficial. The class I took with Tess had one evening devoted to health and care (examining their gums, ears, etc.). Learning how to give commands and the timing of rewards, etc. was a great learning experience for both Tess & I (I needed more training than Tess did) and really helped develop our relationship. Besides that, I gained some great local resources.


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## LuckyOne

I have loved reading all of your responses. Enjoy your new pup.


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## kaydm

Jill thanks. There is a class in October that I plan to go to with Maggie. I had hoped she would be used to the leash by then, but I don't think it will happen. But we're going anyway. I know I need to learn how to help Maggie learn.


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## kaydm

Maggie is paying attention to IN and OUT today. I am reinforcing with an itty bitty bit of white chicken on the IN times, though. She is napping a little closer to me now. Hmm, maybe hoping for more treats maybe?


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## Jill in Mich

That's great to hear Kay. Don't worry about how much Maggie learns or doesn't learn or whether she's keeping up with the group. I set my expectations pretty low when I took Tess (my only goal was for her to allow the trainer to pet her) and was very surprised when she learned every command. It not only taught me how to go about training Tess I think it allowed Tess to understand what I was looking under the supervision of a profession (so I wasn't confusing Tess nearly as much as I would have done on my own.) I also found that Tess could be very reticent to respond to me during the class (too many other people and dogs around) but had clearly been paying attention because she would pick things up much faster at home.

You mentioned in a previous post of learning to just take one day at a time and deal with whatever came up....great lesson that will serve you well!


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## HavaneseSoon

davetgabby said:


> That reminds me Sheri, never get a new puppy until winter is over. I froze my ass off waiting for Molly.


You are soooooooooooooo right Dave! Dexter was my Christmas puppy!


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## Lunastar

kaydm said:


> Thanks, Luna. I was always a cat person during my working years. A few years ago I developed allergies around cats. Now that I'm retired, it seemed that I had time for a dog. I thought about that off and on for about 3-4 years. Then meeting the Hav next door made me really want my very own.
> 
> Now here's the funny part. Lonnie, the Hav next door could care about other dogs, but she loves people. I love her waggy tail and doggy kisses. She ignores my Maggie who moves right up next to me as if to say, ok you can leave now.
> 
> Maggie loves all dogs and skitters away from people. Both dogs had similar backgrounds.


Kay I have two girls from the same litter. They have been in my home since 8 or 9 weeks old. They have had the exact same experiences. Zoey is shy around people she doesn't know, crowds and bosterious dogs. She does like other dogs and cats and will get used to another dog even a hyperactive one faster than she will a person. Bella loves everyone and expects everyone to love her. She likes other dogs and cats once she has some time to get used to them. They each have such different personalities.

I also agree with Jill training is important. I've had dogs, cats, and other furry things my whole life but the training really helped me with them. My other dogs were all always very well trained, for some reason these little sweeties were melting my heart and getting away with murder. LOL The training helped me to get motivated to get them under control. Of course they still get away with murder but now it is well mannered murder. hahaha


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## davetgabby

LuckyOne said:


> I have loved reading all of your responses. Enjoy your new pup.


What a cute picture of your two. They are darling.


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## kaydm

Luna, I would settle for well-mannered murder. lol


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## BeverlyA

Kay,

Any chance you would be interested in making a quilt block on that sewing machine for our 2010 quilt project? Don't say you've never made one before, if you were going to say that, because that doesn't count as an excuse! Almost everyone involved is a first time quilter.

If you're at all interested check out the quilt threads. This year the two quilts raised almost $6000 for Havanese Rescue! Julie is our quilt organizer and she can talk anyone threw a block or two!

Keep up the fabulous work with Maggie! Most dogs respond better to hand signs than vocal ones I think anyway!

Beverly


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## Lunastar

I use hand signs and verbal. I like to be able to signal them if I'm talking with someone. They do really well. The hard part sometimes is coming up with a hand signal I'll remember. LOL 

Don't worry Kay you will get there. You and Maggie already have such a special bond. You are instinctively doing just what she needs. The class will help even more.


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## kaydm

Beverly, I have done some quilting in the past. I am more an admirer than an actual quilter. But if it is just a block, I could manage that. 

Thanks for saying hand signals are important. Maggie is doing so good today ---day 2 of my airport plane handler arm sweeps for IN and OUT. One thing I noticed is that she has slowed down. No more mad dashes for an open door. One of the reasons I started this is because I will want the doors closed when colder weather comes. Have not had the doors open at all the last 2 days and my signals are working for her. Yay. Kay


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## kaydm

Thanks for the kind words, Luna. I have a lot of hope for both of us.


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## Lunastar

Oh Kay in no time at all you will be an old pro and thinking it is time for another hav. LOL


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## Forbulous

Dave!
Your Molly and my Molly are related!
My Molly's mom came from Havalane!


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## kaydm

Oh Kay in no time at all you will be an old pro and thinking it is time for another hav. LOL
__________________
Blessings, Luna and the girls 
-----------------------------------------------
Well, Luna, just shoot me if I start making noises about getting another one. Besides, a friend told me that when she had 2 dogs, they were great buddies and she didn't feel like a mom, more like a care taker because they had each other.


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## Lunastar

I have two and it is wonderful. I'm definately the mom. They both try to sit in my lap while I'm on the computer. LOL Good thing my lap is big, sometimes I have one of the cats too. Bella is my little velcro girl, always right at my feet. Zoey is usually there too but she is more willing to go lay at the window and watch the world go by. I get double the kisses, love and fun. LOL


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## davetgabby

Forbulous said:


> Dave!
> Your Molly and my Molly are related!
> My Molly's mom came from Havalane!


Wow that's cool. How did you find this out. ?


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## davetgabby

Hey Kay, have you done any leash work yet.?


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## Forbulous

YOu posted your breeders website, and I noticed that that was the place I was told Molly's mom came from.

Did they tell you to use Orijen?


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## davetgabby

That was four and a half years ago. Then Cynthia was using MediCal. Glad she is now recommending Orijen. What was your Molly's mother's name. Not Biscuit by any chance. Biscuit was my Molly's sister. I still keep in touch with her. She uses me as a reference to new potential buyers. That's cool. Small world.


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## Forbulous

Oh, she didn't tell me to use it. I decided on my own.
I got my Molly through another man, who had her mom. He was going to breed, had his breeder papers and all, but his wife died. Breeding Havanese was her dream.

Molly's mom's name is Sadie, but I'll see what else I can find out!


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## Forbulous

Kay, 
I read through this thread yesterday and I think you are doing a fantastic job! 
Maggie is so lucky. Reading it was making me tear up!


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## bridget123

Be patient. Hopefully things will change. We have had our 2 Havanese for a little over a year & they still get car sick.Anyone have a suggestion?


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## Lunastar

Sorry Bridget I' min the same boat. My girls will be 3 and Bella still gets carsick sometimes. The vet did tell me I could use dramamine but I just hate drugging her so we haven't tried that yet. Need to do it once at home though to make sure she won't have a reaction so if I ever need to use it I can. Good luck, if you find something that works please let me know, she loves to go places but she always feels so yucky after she gets sick.


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## davetgabby

bridget123 said:


> Be patient. Hopefully things will change. We have had our 2 Havanese for a little over a year & they still get car sick.Anyone have a suggestion?


Here's something for you Bridget from Jean Donaldson
When dogs are carsick, they feel nauseous which is unpleasant. In fact, in
the unpleasantness sweepstakes, nausea can rank above pain in "wow would
I like to avoid this." Just like we humans, nauseous dogs don't always throw
up, which means we might be missing it. Sometimes they salivate and are
restless and sometimes they just pant and look glassy. Interestingly, it's easy
to mistake this for a primary car-anxiety. Also, it doesn't take many such car
rides for anxiety to be added: "oh no, here comes that place where my tummy
feels bad...pleeeease can I not go in there." The anxiety is also aversive, which
could exacerbate the ill feeling, and so on.
Sometimes even if the carsickness is resolved, the secondary anxiety may remain
alive. If this is the case, your interventions-making positive associations
with approach and the considerable cumulative effect of so many car
rides to enjoyable dog sports-are on the right track and you will probably
continue to make gradual gains. Although it's intuitive to not feed in order to
avoid the product of vomiting, check with your veterinarian about whether
or not this will help reduce nausea, as opposed to a light, bland snack prior
to travel.
Your veterinarian will help sort this out and, if she thinks it's indicated, try a
course of anti-nausea medication to help break the cycle. In the can't-hurtmight-
help department, I've heard that static charges may be implicated in
cases of carsickness in both dogs and humans. Cars can drag lines from their
undercarriage to the road to dissipate charge.
If it's a primary car anxiety, it means he's not as fine as you think once he's in
the car. To firm this up, look very critically for signs of anxiety. Those signs
that can mimic nausea include trembling, a blown-pupil deer in the headlights
look and whining.
If he really, truly is fine once in the car, and not suffering from carsickness,
we need to consider a superstitious fear of some part of the jump-in process.
Dogs acquire these fears all the time. For example, if the first time a dog attends
a baseball game, fireworks go off, he could subsequently fear kids in
baseball uniforms. Likewise, if, twice in a row, a conformation handler steps
on the dog's foot after the rosettes are presented, the dog could get spooky
about ribbons. These are considered "superstitious" because there is no logical,
rational basis-kids in baseball uniforms don't make big booming noises
and rosettes don't hurt feet. The fear remains alive because of the nature of
avoidance learning. Subsequent to the chance association, the dog behaves
fearfully-balks at the end of the leash or growls at the kids, scrambles away
from the rosettes, rushes into the car-and, in his mind, avoids the fearful
stimulus. "See how well my behavior works?" He never finds out that the
scary thing wouldn't have happened anyway.
Try blocking his avoidance response. Mechanically prevent him from rushing
through "something" to get into his crate so he finds out something is
nothing. To facilitate this, separate the crate and car elements. Practice going
slowly into the car as well as slowly into the crate you use in the car. A halter
or plain buckle collar held taut could get you started (keep it taut to avoid his
rushing and getting an inadvertent jerk). Do pauses at the "sticky" point (die
place he needs to rush through) and provide him with treats and praise. The
more you hang out at the spot he thinks is dangerous, the more evidence you
are giving him that there is nothing scary there.


----------



## bridget123

thank you all for the advice. My kennel person recommended melatonin or dramammine. Have not tried this. We are in for a car ride tomorrow about 45 min. to go & play with another Havanese. they are all good friends & love it when we get there. We'll see how it goes!


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Has anyone tried giving your pet a ginger snap one hour prior to car travel? My dog would not eat it, but some will and I am told it works. With the other medications, once I read all the precautions, I did not want to use them.


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## davetgabby

never heard of using them. Make sure your vet would recommend them.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Yes, by all means check with your vet, mine said it was fine.


----------



## Scooter's Family

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> Yes, by all means check with your vet, mine said it was fine.


Hi! I see you're from Helen, GA. Our Scooter is from Noblegold in Helen. Do you know them?


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Hello, I saw you were in Cumming when I looked at this thread. I do know of Noblegold, but have not visited. I spoke with the owner about 3 years ago when I was considering a Havanese. I am again considering one and have decided to visit the forum again. My friend Pjewel recommended I do this and I must say this is a wonderful forum! Which one is Scooter? You are lucky to have two!


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## bridget123

good morning! Have not tried the ginger snap but what a good idea. Will investigate this with my vet.


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## Scooter's Family

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> Hello, I saw you were in Cumming when I looked at this thread. I do know of Noblegold, but have not visited. I spoke with the owner about 3 years ago when I was considering a Havanese. I am again considering one and have decided to visit the forum again. My friend Pjewel recommended I do this and I must say this is a wonderful forum! Which one is Scooter? You are lucky to have two!


Scooter is my little chocolate guy, Murphy was a rescue. If you don't have a pup yet you should look into Havanese Rescue. The dogs on there are being fostered and so many on here have wonderful stories of the dogs they've rescued!

We're having a playdate at my house next Saturday, 10/3, if you'd like to come and see all the doggies! You'll fall in love for sure.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Thank you so much. I am not sure what a play date is, could you tell me. Not sure if all this is okay on the forum, or do I need to email you off list? Could not foster one and give it up. But, thank you, I will consider a rescue. Just read through the thread on rescue? Thanks again, a playdate sounds like fun


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## Scooter's Family

A playdate is when we all get together, the people talk and eat while the dogs play, RLH, and then sleep because they're worn out!

When I mentioned rescue I didn't mean as a foster, lots of people find the dogs they have through rescue and they're wonderful additions to your family. Some say it's almost as if the dog knows it was taken from a bad situation and brought into a good one and the relationship is indescribable!

Here are a few photos from our last get together. You are most welcome to join us and get a feeling for the crazy dog person you're about to become! :bounce:


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

It does sound like fun. I hope the weather is good, and maybe I can call you and get directions to your house. I have been a crazy dog person for years!! Just without one right now. Thanks for the photos I love it!


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## kaydm

Happy Saturday all. Maggie got her staples out of her tummy today. It took no time at all. She gets so freaked with the carrier. When we got home, she ran right to her crate. Since I needed to run some errands anyway, I let her go inside with her water. When I returned home she wanted out. I read her body language to mean: I want to get away from you. Ooo that hurts.

She just now came into my computer room to take a nap. I have been home for an hour and half. She looked at me and then curled her nose into her tail and is out like a light.

I just want to pick her up and love on her and feel her warm little boddy. But I am respecting her space and need to nap after her stress this late morning.

I am glad to know her incision is healing very well with no problems. Her appetite is good and she bounds around the yard like a pup. So it's all good. Kay


----------



## kaydm

I do know there is only 1 'd' in body. lol


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## Scooter's Family

Even after our boys were neutered and seemed to want to sleep a lot we had them sleep on the floor on a towel and we would lie next to them. You might try lying down by her and just not touching her, she'll know you're close by but it won't cause her any discomfort. I rubbed their faces gently. 

Glad her stitches are out and she's healing well.


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## Lunastar

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> It does sound like fun. I hope the weather is good, and maybe I can call you and get directions to your house. I have been a crazy dog person for years!! Just without one right now. Thanks for the photos I love it!


You will have a blast if you go to Ann's playdate even without a doggie. :tea:

Here is the link to our dogs that are available for adoption. Check back to it often. Unfortunately there are always new little darlings being added.

http://www.havaneserescue.com/index...nt&view=category&layout=blog&id=36&Itemid=159


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## Lunastar

Great suggestion Ann. Kay you are doing so well.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Kay, the suggestion of being close but not touching seemed to work when I had a similar situation. It is so hard to wait for them to "come to you". It is too bad they don't understand how much you want to hug them. But time will do it, along with a lot of understanding love. 

Luna, Thank you, I am going to that site right away!! I know I will enjoy holding my first Havanese at Ann's party!! Looking forward to it all.. thank you..Flynn


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## kaydm

Luna and Ann, Maggie is totally recovered now. The first 4 days after her surgery, she slept a lot of the day on a rug near me. I was doing a lot of sewing and it was easy to have her near me most of the day.

The weather is so nice that I spent my time out on the 3 season porch reading from mid afternoon til just now. Maggie was in her favorite spot out there with me, napping. We just came in to mess around on the computer. In about a half hour she will start looking longingly at the closed door of her crate, waiting for me to open it so she can retire for the night. Who runs this house anyway?


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## kaydm

I need help with what to say to Maggie to get her to go to her food bowl mornings and evenings. Rattling it doesn't get her interested. Smacking my lips and crunching crackers makes her look at me like I'm nuts. Although after a few minutes of this, she will start to look around at her bowl and then start to eat. 

I need a word or phrase and/or physical signal of some kind to alert her to mealtime. When I had cats all I had to do was rattle the food bag and the cat came running. Any suggestions?


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## davetgabby

She is a dear. Have you tried any leash work yet.?


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## Scooter's Family

We say, "Do you want to eat?" Murphy can be dead asleep and if we say that his head will fly up in the air! Scooter didn't eat much when he first came home and I worried myself sick over it. You could put her food bowl down and tell her whatever you're going to use to let her know and then make a little trail of food for her to follow. That worked for a while. Then we found he didn't like a bowl so they both eat off of a flat plate. 

Don't wonder who runs your house, we all know who it is because we're all in the same boat!


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## kaydm

Dave, talked with the trainer today to set next date for him to come. I specifically asked him if we can work with leash training with Maggie. He told me that is what he has in mind to do. He will be here next Friday. Boy, I really envy my neighbors who can walk with their dogs. I really want to do that too, with Maggie loving it. Kay


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## kaydm

Ann you are too funny.


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## davetgabby

Kay ,it might be helpful to conditon Maggie to the leash before hand. Terry from our group is good with densens.so I asked her for her methods. Here is her regime. 
empowering the animal in relation to the object 
of their fear can help -- lay the leash on the 
floor and encourage the dog to walk to it, over 
it, sniff it, paw it, step on it... short of 
eating it, LOL, there is not much they can do 
that would hurt it! 

i would clip a leash to their tag-collar once 
they had seen, smelled, stepped-on it, etc. 
then just let them drag it along... not ask 
them to do anything, but have the leash just 
follow them, as they walk thru the house. 

once they realize THEY are moving the leash, 
they calm down considerably; they now have 
the idea that they can move it, it does not 
move of itself. 

once they have worn it for a day or two, 
i like to step on the end of the leash - 
just to momentarily restrain the dog -- 
then instantly TREAT them while they are 
stopped/standing. 

the next step is to add more-length (6-ft 
is going to be too-close for comfort for 
most non-leash-trained dogs), so i often 
slip the wrist-loop into the handle/loop 
on the dragging leash, and now i have at 
least 11-ft of leash between me = the dog. 
now i can let THE * DOG take me into and 
thru the woods... Terry


----------



## Lunastar

kaydm said:


> Luna and Ann, Maggie is totally recovered now. The first 4 days after her surgery, she slept a lot of the day on a rug near me. I was doing a lot of sewing and it was easy to have her near me most of the day.
> 
> The weather is so nice that I spent my time out on the 3 season porch reading from mid afternoon til just now. Maggie was in her favorite spot out there with me, napping. We just came in to mess around on the computer. In about a half hour she will start looking longingly at the closed door of her crate, waiting for me to open it so she can retire for the night. Who runs this house anyway?


ROFL Kay that is funny. Of course they run the house and us. hahaha

So glad she is feeling better. All of mine(cats and dogs) come running when I say breakfast or dinner. Actually they usually start asking a good hour before dinner(Luna one of the cats starts this). I too went through alot of plates, bowls, even big floor tiles, before I finally hit on a bowl they liked. haha Yeah I pretend to wear the "pants" but they get me to jump through hoops. hahaha


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## marjrc

How nice to hear that Maggie has healed from her surgery. Yaaayy!!  Kay, I say "go eat" when it's time to eat. I will ask "Are you hungry?" first, and Ricky cocks his head and is alert. Every time I place the bowls down, I say "o.k. go eat" and Ricky gobbles it all up. Sammy, on the other hand, is our fussy one and will sit off in the distance, wait for Ricky to finish and then maybe, just maybe, he'll saunter over and take a sniff and eat. lol

I named pretty much every action we did with them as puppies, such as 'outside' 'in the house', just as you do your 'in' and 'out'. 'Go pee" when they'd start to pee and a 'good boy' when they were done. 'Up the stairs' and 'let's go downstairs' so they know what those mean. I am very vocal - just ask those that have met me at the dog shows! - and I was the same with my kids. I named everything, "let's tie your shoes", "one button, two, three..." I never shut up! LOL But, I do keep it very simple with the dogs. One word, 2 or 3 short words and that's it. They are not into long sentences. lol


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## kaydm

Thanks, Marj. Starting last night, I am saying "time to eat" as I fix her food. She doesn't get it yet, but I think repeating this consistantly will help. 

My neighbor put her Hav into my yard this afternoon and made Maggie's tail wag so happily. They always start off nose to nose. It tickles me that she loves other dogs. She even liked the giant lab's head that was stuck up against her carrier at the vet's office last Saturday.


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## Lunastar

Aw she is a social being. She will get used to people in time. My Zoey is shy and it take her a bit to warm up.


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## davetgabby

I have to agree with Luna. She will get better , nice and easy does it.


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## kaydm

Tonight I think Maggie finally has gotten "time to eat" since she went right to her bowl before I even got to the kitchen. The only thing is she won't even look at her bowl or try to eat unless I rattle the cracker package and pretend I'm eating those awful crackers. They're really bad in the morning, so I make chewing and smacking sounds. Then she will eat.

Midday I gave Maggie a chewing stick of some sort that the vet gave me. She ate half of it right away. Is that ok? Do not even know what it's made of. Is there a suggested kind? Kay


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## davetgabby

Kay what exactly are you feeding and how often. Find out what type of sticks the vet is recommending. Sticks like bully sticks or Zukes are ok but watch how much because some are heavy calories.


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## Scooter's Family

We love the Flossies and Bully Sticks but stick with the Merrick brand as they don't smell as bad as some of the others. I cut Flossies in half and they each get half about once or twice a week. They're wonderful if you're busy and want them to be occupied for a while!


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## kaydm

The stick is supposed to be good for teeth I think. It was about 5 inches long by about 1/2 inch in diameter with no real smell that I could detect. I wish I had thrown it away since it was a freebie from the vet that came from who knows what company made of I can't even guess. Kay


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## kaydm

We love the Flossies and Bully Sticks ...

Ann, are these like for snacks or do they have a purpose? What does bully stick mean? That is a new phrase to me. Kay


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## kaydm

Rescheduled the trainer to Sunday since it is so cold and rainy here today.

Maggie has not made a bark sound since her surgery. When I had surgery, I was hoarse for a week and my throat hurt from the breathing tube. Could Maggie have the same symptoms? Could her vocal cords be damaged? How would I know? Kay


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## davetgabby

you worry too much lol. So long as she is eating and drinking OK . don't worry about it. What are you feeding her though.?


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## Lunastar

They may have had a tube down her throat during the surgery, so not barking is okay, she may have sore throat. Also there just may not be anything she wants to bark at. YOu are doing a wonderful job.


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## Scooter's Family

Bully Sticks and Flossies are beef tendons and my dogs love them. They have to really chew on them for a while so it's a great treat to them. You can order them online or at a specialty pet store, Petsmart and Petco don't carry the Merrick brand.


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## JeanMarie

Kay, your little Maggie is so lucky to have you! I know with patience and love, she'll come out of her shell. I can't imagine what her life has been like up till now. Did you say that she will not take food from your hand? I'm asking because the trainer I worked with had me hand feed Riley for a few weeks. I would say his name gently as he took a bite. This was a BIG bonding ritual for us. It also taught him that all things yummy came from me. 
Sending you hugs, Jean


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## kaydm

Hi everybody. What a fabulous day. The dog trainer came today. He spent about 40 minutes crosslegged on the floor talking with me and tossing treats to Maggie hoping to get her to come closer to him, which she did.

The best part was putting a leash on Maggie and heading out on the sidewalk. At first she balked and would not budge. Then he did a gentle tug and off she went. He handed me the leash and for the next half hour, Maggie took me for a walk. 

Boy, can she move. He told me that I can slow her down. But my heart rate was up, Maggie was having a great time, and I couldn't stop grinning. Granted Maggie had her preferred distance from me, but when we came back, she had a new look to her face and her stance. I think she really like it. I know I did. After awhile, I plan to take her out again. 

Feeling just a little apprehensive without the trainer, but think I can do it. Kay


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## maryam187

Well Kay I KNOW you can do it! Go for it and keep it short and positive.


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## davetgabby

Great to hear that Kay. You'll do fine. It will be good for both of you.


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## kaydm

Just came back from a walk around the block --- it's a really really long block. Maggie has a pretty swift pace and I was enjoying it so didn't try to slow her down. If Maggie was a great big dog, I would have been flying behind her sorta like that Marmaduke cartoon in the Sunday newspaper.

When we returned to my house, the neighbor, Martha, came out on her patio with her Hav, Lonnie. Maggie walked over and nosed Lonnie thru the fence, but when Martha started talking with me, Maggie pulled back and started fighting the leash. Martha said she was astonished to us sail by her front window.

Maggie is sleeping on the rug near me now. Tuckered her out, I think. Kay


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## davetgabby

Sounds like she will like walking. Keep in mind that training her now to walk without pulling will be easier than later. Do you still have the article I sent you on walking with a loose leash. ?


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## kaydm

Ok Dave, I do not remember that article, but am very interested as I know that I am letting Maggie do what she wants to do and I don't think that's cool. Kay


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## Jill in Mich

Congratulations Kay! What a big accomplishment. I think you and Maggie will enjoy sharing your new found activity.


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## Lunastar

OH Kay what a wonderful day!


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Is the Merrick brand different/better? THanks Flynn


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## Scooter's Family

The Merrick ones don't smell as bad.


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## kaydm

Maggie barked today. It's a big deal to me as I worried she had lost her voice from the breathing tube for her surgery. I had not heard her bark since Sept. 16th.

I was watching Lonnie, the Hav next door for my neighbor this afternoon. Maggie wanted her attention and barked. Didn't do it for Lonnie so she went back inside. But I was happy to hear that Maggie still has a bark. Kay


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## Lunastar

Hooray Kay, I'm so glad your mind is at ease on that score now.


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## marjrc

Kay, it sounds like the walking is going well ! I agree with David that you might want to learn how to be the leader in the walk and not let Maggie lead you wherever she decides to go. I know it's a breakthrough to even get her on a leash and walking! Easy, slow and positive changes will help. When do you next see the trainer? 

Bully sticks are actually beef penis and flossies are curled tendons. There are also small pizzle sticks that are great chews. The best thing about these types of chews are that they are completely digestible and don't break/snap off, causing choking. Rawhide/leather chews are too risky in my opinion, esp. for smaller dogs. They are high in calories, so do use them occasionally if that's an issue for Maggie.


----------



## kaydm

Marj, the trainer has to be out of town for training for his day job for the next 3 weeks. I guess I will have to use the internet to try to find out what I should be doing when walking Maggie.

Maggie is still PO'd with me for picking her up to put the leash on her and carry her out the door before the walk and in the door after the walk as she freaks at the door while on the leash. She has been giving me a wide berth since Sunday.

On the the positive side, she really gets 'time to eat' now. And 'in' and 'out' are just normal for her now.

When I say 'time to eat' she reluctantly moseys on out to the kitchen and whines briefly by her eating spot. She will not eat until she hears the cracker package noise and sees me munching a cracker. Oh, and I have to be at the dining room table (about 12 feet away) before she will eat.

Maggie spends alot of energy everyday checking out my movements and deciding if she needs to adjust her space in relation to me. Something new, however, is that she will walk right by my feet to leave the house as I am opening the door.

Thanks for the info on the bully sticks ( ewww, who knew?).


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## Lunastar

Oh Kay that is good that she is walking right by you. Poor little thing. I wish they could talk and tell us why these things scare them. 

I'm with you Ewwww.


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## kaydm

You know it is not easy to keep my cool all the time. Tonite for the first time, when Maggie whined at her eating spot, I mimicked her whine right back at her. I was just feeling po'd that I don't know why she whines. She just looked at me and I looked right back at her. I left her alone with her food and went outdoors. When I came back in all her food was eaten in no time flat. That little stinker is working me.


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## Lunastar

hahahaha They are so very good at training us.


----------



## Scooter's Family

kaydm said:


> That little stinker is working me.


ound:


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## kaydm

Sometime tonight I began to think that I have been walking on eggshells, acting like a real co-dependent person around a user and thinking 'if only I act right' Maggie will behave differently towards me. Well, that is really anthropomorphizing her, isn't it?

I am just wishing for a normal human/dog relationship. I want that velcro dog experience. I want the wagging tail, I'm so glad to see you dog. I even start to think of getting another dog, just so she will be happy.


----------



## Luciledodd

I have been reading some of your travils with your little dog and understand a little of what you are going through. I have had every kind of dog and had no problems with them; but everyone said that these little guys were different and couldn't be disiplined like other dogs, etc. Well, in the long run, they are just dogs like all dogs. I was told that I couldn't leave Rosie in a room by herself, had to feed her special food, etc. Well that lasted just a few days. She didn't want to eat--until she got hungry--took two days then she began to eat and now, I can't fill her up. She knows that when I leave a room I will come back, so she just waits for me. And yesterday after picking up puppy poop for the last time, I sharply told her BAD DOG and put her on the puddle pad and then wouldn't have anything to do with her. Today she hasn't missed the pad a time and is just as playful as ever. My point being is that sometimes you just have to go with your instinct. The dog will be fine.


----------



## Lunastar

Oh kay hang in there. Of course another little hav is never a bad idea. MHS! LOL


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## davetgabby

Kay , what exactly are you feeding her?


----------



## kaydm

Dave, why do you ask? I have been feeding her Orijen for adult dogs. She likes it. For treats, a little bitty bit of Natural Balance lamb.


----------



## kaydm

Lucille, thank you so much for your great words from your experience. Kay


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## HavaneseSoon

My experience.....Havs....I am going to say MOST of them, hardly bark. Dexter will bark when something is going on outside, but most of the time, he is pretty quiet. 

As for eating experience....some meals, Dexter will not eat. When I think he should eat and he walks away.....I tell him....yes, I tell him.... "You need to eat" and Dexter will go back to the food dish and start eating. Sometimes, I have to tell him several times, so, he will finish eating. 

Other times, Dexter just eats on his own. If he doesn't eat, I do not worry about it...as long as they are active, playing, peeing/pooing, drinking water.....I am not going to worry about it. 

You will do fine without the trainer for awhile....just ask us and you will get lots of opinions....you, just pick the ones that will work for you.


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## davetgabby

kaydm said:


> Dave, why do you ask? I have been feeding her Orijen for adult dogs. She likes it. For treats, a little bitty bit of Natural Balance lamb.


Kay , I was just wondering what you meant by biscuits? No Orijen is good. To build trust towards you I would spend some time hand feeding. Just go slow and if you have to throw the treat towards her thats fine .Just get her comfortable by luring her closer and closer to the point she takes it out of your hand. Here is a good article on classical conditioning. It pertains to nearly everything. I will look for another article on walking .http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/classical-conditioning


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## davetgabby

Kay here is an article on walking.http://www.dogstardaily.com/files/WalkingOnLeash_1.pdf


----------



## hvapuppy2

Hi Kay, To build your value in terms of closeness, I would drop pieces of food she likes at my feet (steak would be my item of choice). 

Anywhere I would go in the house I would magically drop food, and keep going about my business...she'll learn to value being close to you.

In agility, we work on a similar issue with border collies, because they naturally prefer to be farther away from our bodies. I guess cuz they go out to get the sheep and then do their job at great distances. So we try to build value close in with games of tug or food. In your case food dropped on the floor at first, and then gradually closer and hand feeding. 

The idea is to create value in being near to you. I would not give her any eye contact, make it relaxed.

I think that you eating crackers and sitting a certain distance away shows that you are sensitive to her needs...which is good since it's a team work thing this dog training affair 

P.S. I don't use natural balance, I have found it to give my dogs an allergic reaction, I prefer to stick with the straight goods


----------



## davetgabby

good advice Havpuppy2, . By the way what is your name?


----------



## hvapuppy2

davetgabby said:


> good advice Havpuppy2, . By the way what is your name?


thanks Dave, I'm Angela from BC. I book marked the links you gave too, helpful references!

A


----------



## davetgabby

:tea:


hvapuppy2 said:


> thanks Dave, I'm Angela from BC. I book marked the links you gave too, helpful references!
> 
> A


Thanks Angela . There's one thing with this forum that should be manditory and that is that everyone has their first name on their avatar. From one Canuck to another cheers. :tea:


----------



## Jill in Mich

Angela, I like the idea of dropping treats while walking around. I've not heard it mentioned before but it makes perfect sense. I've used something similar to teach Tess how to run and to associate good things with me leaving the house. Whenever I leave I run through the house throwing treats around. The dogs chase me around grabbing treats (each has their favorite hiding spots to check). They couldn't care less that I leave. I then took the same concept outside and rewarded Tess whenever she'd chase me. She's just starting to get the concept of just running for the sake of running.


----------



## Lunastar

Dave great articles. Welcome Angela, some good advice. Jill you are so good with Tess, she sure did find and angel in you.


----------



## kaydm

Dave, you wrote: Kay , I was just wondering what you meant by biscuits? No Orijen is good.

Are you saying Orijen is not good?

I think I said a little bitty bit -- not biscuits. lol Kay


----------



## kaydm

Dave thanks for the links to the 2 articles. Kay


----------



## davetgabby

kaydm said:


> Dave, you wrote: Kay , I was just wondering what you meant by biscuits? No Orijen is good.
> 
> Are you saying Orijen is not good?
> 
> I think I said a little bitty bit -- not biscuits. lol Kay


I thought you said you were feeding her biscuits. No ,if I were feeding kibble I would use Orijen myself.


----------



## marjrc

You see, David, you forgot to insert a comma, so even I thought you were saying Orijen was no good! lol Orijen is very good, Kay, no worries.  I also use the Nat'l Bal. Lamb roll, but it's a "junk food" treat that I use sparingly and the dogs will do anything for it. It has so much flavor and smell (likely artificial, but a bit goes a long way)  

We also have a bit of a 'routine' with getting Sammy to eat. Depending on what's in his bowl and what his mood is, I usually sprinkle dried beef liver or the Nat'l Lamb Roll over his food. Then I sit on the steps, just outside the spot where their bowls are and avoid looking at him. I do say "Sammy, go eat" , but he insists on waiting until Ricky is finished and has moved away. Sometimes this is the routine and he'll eat and we'll all be happy. lol It's a bit of a pain, esp. because Ricky will eat anything I put in front of him and lick the bowl clean. They don't eat the same foods, and Ricky would easily wolf down Sammy's dinner, so we have to keep watching them. 

Angela, great idea about dropping treats around you. I would imagine any dog would eventually come closer and on a regular basis, esp. if you don't make a big deal out of it. 

Kay, it's only normal to feel frustrated at times. I think it might likely be based on disappointed and also worry that Maggie might not ever "get it" to feel comfortable around you and content. It's our goal to have a healthy, emotionally balanced pet and with Maggie, it's a work in progress. I have faith you will make this work, Kay. You are doing everything you can and I agree that sometimes you just have to act like everything IS o.k. and then maybe that's what Maggie will pick up from you. 

I was thinking about Milo and his mom (with her "A year later and still a mess" thread) late last night and remembered that Cesar Milan always says that dogs live in the moment, in the here and now. They dont' dwell on their past like we do. They don't always wake up and think about all the emotional baggage they may be carrying. Each day is a new one, each moment an opportunity to realize that this life she is now living is actually pretty good!


----------



## kaydm

Marj, your words are just what I need to hear right now. Thank you.

Yesterday snow fell throughout the morning with about an inch on the ground when I let Maggie out. She ran a few steps, stopped, and I thought, 'uh-oh, maybe she won't like to be out in the snow.' But she loved it, running and stopping to eat snow and running some more. She came inside with a big, snow-filled mustache. It was funny to see.

Just a week or so ago, Maggie discovered my laundry basket in the linen closet in the bathroom. There, she discovered my underwear, which I find daily in the livingroom and other rooms. She stole a sock out of my boot and I didn't find it for 2 days. It makes me laugh to find out that she is exploring and having her fun, obviously when I am not looking since I've never caught her at her shenanigans. 

Today, I dropped treats all day long. What was my reward? I'll tell you. More whining. I think I have it figured out. Her one whine at her food spot has been added to by another whine when I tell her to come inside. I believe the whine in both cases means 'Aw, do I hafta right now?' If my opinion changes I'll let you know.


----------



## maryam187

Kay, keep up the good work, I admire your patience and perseverance. Pablo will whine when he sees something he wants to get to, e.g. dog, cat, food, getting on our bed, etc. or when he has a 'treasure' in his mouth that he wants to hide, e.g. chew, DH's dirty socks, etc. Dogs whine for all kinds of reasons, so don't be worried about this. She's probably just trying to communicate with you, like Chuy who will give me a few whines and a single bark if he thinks I'm too slow preparing his meal, LOL.


----------



## kaydm

Thanks Maryam. I hadn't thought of a whine as an attempt at communication. I just saw it as a negative expression. Kay


----------



## maryam187

Kay, even though I think it's so cute of them to whine for things, I don't show it. If there's something one of them is trying to show me or alarm me about, I say 'what is it? Show me!' and will go check it out, e.g. a cat outside of the window. But if they whine to get me to do things I don't want to do 'hurry up with food', 'pick me up', 'pet me', 'open the darn pantry door for me', etc. I will ignore the whining.


----------



## Kathie

Kay, you are doing such a great job with Maggie. We've had Abby a little over a year and a half and see progress all the time but it has been slow. So patience really is the best thing I can recommend although it isn't easy. I think I mentioned this in another thread but I am just so thrilled that Abby has started snuggling up to me and also letting me hold her for a while relaxing in my arms - finally after all this time and she just started that in the last week! Everytime we have a breakthough like this it is like something just clicks in her brain!

I know the waiting is hard but when it happens it just makes it all the sweeter!!


----------



## Lunastar

Kathie that is great news about Abby. Good news to share with Kay too so she will know she can have this to look forward too. 

My girls whine for different reasons. Bella whines when she gets very excited. It is her way of saying hello. Zoey does this too but not as often. Zoey has a need to go poo whine. It means don't hesitate get that door open! LOL


----------



## kaydm

Kathie, have you been picking her up and holding her all this time? My dog trainer suggested that I just pick up Maggie and pet her while watching tv. I do that about once a week. Maggie no longer shakes the whole time. She has a little trembling but it seems to stop when I run my hands in long strokes the length of her body. She seems to like having her cheeks, jaw, and under chin rubbed and scratched, too. But after I put her down, she really mainains a distance from me for the rest of the day. Not her favorite thing, I think.


----------



## Kathie

Kay, at the beginning Abby would run from us and hide behind chairs or under the table and these are still her favorite spots to go.

I could pick her up and hold her as I stood but she would want down in about 5 - 10 seconds and was always tensed to jump down. Now she will let me hold her for longer although she really doesn't like to be held. She never gets on my lap for over a few seconds, either, and then she goes and lays down either at the end of the sofa if my DH isn't there or under the coffee table or behind a chair. I have accepted her the way she is but as I said she is improving a little at the time. I have always had dogs that wanted to be with me or in my lap or held by me all the time so Abby has been quite the challenge for me but I do think she's just not as needy, either.

She used to hide when someone came to our house but now she is more likely to run to see them unless it is a total stranger and then she takes her time sizing them up. So, little by little I think it will happen for you, too. We have been on this journey for over a year and a half now!! It is sometimes such a gradual improvement that all of a sudden you realize she's doing something she never did before or that there haven't been any accidents in the house for months!! I just realized not long ago that she isn't eating poop anymore (hope by putting this in writing she doesn't change her mind)!!

I think in the beginning I tried too hard to get her to come to me and now that I don't always expect it or need it to happen it seems to happen more often (I believe they sense our tension or nervousness or so Cesar says!). Didn't mean to go on & on and I hope some of this might help. I think you are doing a terrific job and someday you'll look around and realize that Maggie is just the dog you were looking for!


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## kaydm

Kathie, thanks. I just stopped to realize that I have had Maggie with me less than 2 months and many changes have already happened. She is so smart and I really want to do the right things for her. Kay


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## kaydm

I signed Maggie up for puppy school starts next Sunday. Had my second long talk with the trainer for this. She has a soft spot for rescues. We both think Maggie may just sit in the corner watching and think it's ok for 2 reasons. One, a car ride to go be with dogs is better than a car ride to the vet! Two, she can watch dogs and humans interact, hopefully encouraging her to come out of her shell.


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## kaydm

Forgot to add that the class will be fewer than 7 dogs all of which are very young pups so no large threatening dogs.


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## davetgabby

That's great Kay. Let us know how it goes.


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## kaydm

Dave, I am not going to put Maggie in the small carrier for the car ride. She justs freaks when she sees that carrier. That will be the first change. I hope I can get her from the car into the classroom without too much hassle.


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## davetgabby

kaydm said:


> Dave, I am not going to put Maggie in the small carrier for the car ride. She justs freaks when she sees that carrier. That will be the first change. I hope I can get her from the car into the classroom without too much hassle.


Kay, have you walked her on leash yet? Are you going to put her in her crate in the car?


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## Lunastar

Kay, thank you so much for sharing your journey with Maggie. You are doing so well and Maggie has come far.


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## jillnors2

Kay-I think she will love class and it's a great way to bond with her. GREAT work with Maggie!!


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## Jill in Mich

Good Luck with the class Kay, you're doing everything possible to give Maggie a good life.
Going to class with no other expectations than to allow Maggie to watch is a great idea.

From everything you've said Maggie seems to like other dogs. Just wanted to mention a problem I've had so you can be ready for it, just in case - puppies tend to scare Tess because they move so fast and want to jump on her, bite her, etc.

I did something similar to what you're doing with Maggie - I signed Tess up in an intermediate obedience class where the dogs aren't allowed to interact. I didn't care if Tess learned the various commands being taught, my only goal was for the instructor(s) to be able to approach her. It was a great learning environment for Tess. I hope the same works out for you.


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## kaydm

Maggie has had a short, pitiful whine every morning for a week when she's in the kitchen when I tell her it's time to eat. Now she is whining before she moves to the kitchen and then whines there. Today, she tried deviating her route thru the livingroom and whining all the way. When I finally got her there, she refused to eat. I let her outside for a short while. Then let her come into computer room. I tossed her food and she ate some, maybe a fourth of what she normally eats.

I put her in crate and went to the dentist and ran errands. Tonite a suppertime, more whines and more reluctance to go to the kitchen.

So I put her food in computerroom and she ate half of it. What is up? Maybe the floor is too cold as I had her bowls by the back door. Maybe, the heat vent is bothering her now that the furnace is on all the time. Maybe she associates that area as where I can easily catch her if I want to pick her up. 

Gosh, on the farm as a kid, we had dogs that were glad to get table scraps. What's with Maggie anyway?


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## davetgabby

Kay , I would just put her food down, and not make any acknowledgement of her whining . Keep a log of some of the things she does ,so that the trainers are aware of everything she does.


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## kaydm

Thanks Dave. I am feeling very inadequate tonite. Maggie doesn't like me. I don't like that I don't know what I don't know. I am in over my head. I think I'm wrong to put her in a class when she clearly is uncomfortable on a leash with me. It's not too late to change my mind. 

She doesn't trust me to not violate her space, gives me such a wide berth when passing me except for when she scoots out the door while I'm still opening it to the outside.

Tonite she whined when I said 'Out?' She went to the door to outside and sat down and whined. Then she went out and after awhile came back and sat and whined when I said "In". I am so perplexed.


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## hvapuppy2

kaydm said:


> Thanks Dave. I am feeling very inadequate tonite. Maggie doesn't like me. I don't like that I don't know what I don't know. I am in over my head. I think I'm wrong to put her in a class when she clearly is uncomfortable on a leash with me. It's not too late to change my mind.
> 
> She doesn't trust me to not violate her space, gives me such a wide berth when passing me except for when she scoots out the door while I'm still opening it to the outside.
> 
> Tonite she whined when I said 'Out?' She went to the door to outside and sat down and whined. Then she went out and after awhile came back and sat and whined when I said "In". I am so perplexed.


Kay try not to be hard on yourself. Maggie loves you...she grabs your socks because she loves your smell etc...

She is like you, trying out what works and what does not work...she's testing boundaries with food, whining, space ...everything.

I don't know what her main kibble is, but I have heard people who's dogs had some problems with Orijen . . . food for thought.

Dogs are not easy... especially rescue dogs ;-)

If it's any consolation, I have those thoughts about my border collie...he doesn't like cuddling, so I chalk it up to his own nature...even though it feels like he doesn't like me.


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## kaydm

Well, Maggie does dig out my socks and my underwear and takes them to her favorite sleeping rug. I don't even know how she finds them in the laundry basket.

What have you heard about Orijen? She ate it the entire month of September without complaint. I do worry that she doesn't drink enough water daily. With dry food, that could be a problem. Her stools look normal, though. 

My very first dog is Maggie. And she is like a rescue dog. I am so afraid I can't handle this living situation with her.


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## Jill in Mich

kaydm said:


> My very first dog is Maggie. And she is like a rescue dog. I am so afraid I can't handle this living situation with her.


Kay, maybe you just need to relax and stop worrying about whether or not Maggie is perfectly content. Try not to interpret every move/noise she makes - just take it as "Maggie behavior" and the 2 of you will find your way.

This is coming from a very co-dependent, care-taking individual. I've spent years trying to take care of everyone else's every possible need (even if it wasn't something the other person needed or necessarily even wanted).... and it just doesn't work. If you're anything like me, these rescue dogs are one of my very important life lessons. I'm finding that relaxing and just letting things be sure makes life flow much easier.

....Just a thought....


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## Alexa

Kay,

I have been following this thread and I am so thrilled with your and Maggie's progress over the weeks. It may not seem like you've come a long way on your end, but I think everyone here agrees that you've done everything and then some to set her environment up in a loving, trusting way.

I firmly believe that only time can heal some things, so keep working with the trainer and keep doing the things you know to be right and things will fall into place babysteps at a time.

Don't worry too much about trying to figure everything to please her. She is doing a great job at training YOU otherwise <g>. Setting firm rules and routines and sticking with them is probably the best thing to make her feel safe and secure. That's not mean, but actually very caring.

Think of it in the same way as treating a Teenager...if you always give them everything they want every time they complain and whine, the problem just grows bigger and they think they are entitled to all of your time, money, attention at all times. If however you set firm rules and stick with them in a nice and firm way and give rewards when rewards are due, the whining occurs a whole lot less and they seem to be more grateful for the things you do for them.

Keep your head up 

Alexa


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## hvapuppy2

my thoughts...

With a rescue dog of her character I think you need a lot of patience. 

What is it that you expect from her? you might want to make a list of things you would like to accomplish and set out a plan, keep records etc. The serious agility folks have record books. They record each training session, down to the second. how many treats doled out, how accurate the responses, how often we played between the 30 second training episode etc... It is very scientific.

Susan Garrett always says, "think, plan and do"...most of us, "do, think and then plan" ha ha!

A record book would help you to see progress and notice the little things. All the while not to be too concerned about set backs...set backs are normal in all dog training. 

Some people suspect Orijen is too high in protein, and potato is not necessarily well absorbed by some dogs...I dunno... It is the food du jour though. I use a very high quality organic kibble only available in Canada and mix in raw meat and they get raw meaty bones occasionally (turkey necks etc)...and lots of raw veggies. The older rescue dog gets cooked meat with his kibble and the water/gravy from the cooked meat...yes my dogs are spoiled and love their feeding time  

Think Plan Do

cheers


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## hvapuppy2

I should also add, dogs in single dog households are often not as interested in food. It was this way in our house with Bella before we brought in the other dawgs  I would make my husband pretend he wanted her food to create competition... he's glad he doesn't have that job any more lol!


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## hvapuppy2

kaydm said:


> Maggie has had a short, pitiful whine every morning for a week when she's in the kitchen when I tell her it's time to eat. Now she is whining before she moves to the kitchen and then whines there. Today, she tried deviating her route thru the livingroom and whining all the way. When I finally got her there, she refused to eat. I let her outside for a short while. Then let her come into computer room. I tossed her food and she ate some, maybe a fourth of what she normally eats.
> 
> I put her in crate and went to the dentist and ran errands. Tonite a suppertime, more whines and more reluctance to go to the kitchen.
> 
> So I put her food in computerroom and she ate half of it. What is up? Maybe the floor is too cold as I had her bowls by the back door. Maybe, the heat vent is bothering her now that the furnace is on all the time. Maybe she associates that area as where I can easily catch her if I want to pick her up.
> 
> Gosh, on the farm as a kid, we had dogs that were glad to get table scraps. What's with Maggie anyway?


How much food are you giving her? a Havanese her size would need 15 kibbles 2 times a day I suspect.

Whining...I should video tape my rescue dog pika boo...he's being bossy...and impatient. This is a training issue...for us


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## Sheri

Angela, what do you mean by saying that a Hav "her size would need 15 kibbles 2 times a day?" Are you thinking 15 tiny little pieces of dry kibble? (Surely not...?) Or is this some kind of measurement in Canada that I'm not familiar with? 

When eating only kibble, Tucker (13 pounds,) who isn't food motivated, would eat, at most, 1/2 cup each day. Sometimes he'd only eat 1/4 cup. Even our cat sitting down to eat Tucker's food didn't get any action from him. Stinker!


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## hvapuppy2

Sheri said:


> Angela, what do you mean by saying that a Hav "her size would need 15 kibbles 2 times a day?" Are you thinking 15 tiny little pieces of dry kibble? (Surely not...?) Or is this some kind of measurement in Canada that I'm not familiar with?
> 
> When eating only kibble, Tucker (13 pounds,) who isn't food motivated, would eat, at most, 1/2 cup each day. Sometimes he'd only eat 1/4 cup. Even our cat sitting down to eat Tucker's food didn't get any action from him. Stinker!


sorry, should have been more clear, i am taking into consideration the treats, the food that is getting dropped on the ground for her socializing with mum...and of course it depends on the size of the kibbles.

so... 1/4 cup of kibble a day with all that included is what bella gets.

my older hyper terrier dog gets more food even though is he is smaller...so it depends on the dog of course


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## davetgabby

Kay, with any relationship there is going to be ups and downs. But to this point it sounds like you have made some significant progress. With fear issues in particular it takes a long time sometimes to gain the trust of a dog that has had the history of Maggie. It took a long time of abuse to instill this mistrust in humans ,and it might take an even longer time to get some trust back. Be proud of the progress you have made. Don't set your goals too high. Like mentioned ,take small steps to get there. Here is an article that I thought was good. http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/behavior-issues-role-time-and-trust


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## kaydm

thanks for all the replies everybody.

I just came into my compter room after doing a few dishes. Well, Maggie had been busy, to say the least. There was, of course, a shredded kleenex. On her little sleeping rug were her prizes from the dirty laundry basket: sweatpants, sweatshirt, long sleeved tee shirt, 3 pairs of socks, underpants, and one washcloth. She's fast and she's good. I don't know how she does it. I just stood there and laughed and laughed.


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## davetgabby

That's the way to look at it Kay. Can't you just wait til you have company over sometime and she comes into the room dragging your nickers.LOL


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## Sheri

...and, just where are the pictures? hoto:


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## kaydm

Oh rats --- shoulda clicked the mess before picking it all up.


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## kaydm

Big deal today. Maggie has not ever been interested in the kong I got for her. For the past couple days, she has not been eating much. She did not eat her breakfast. I decided to fill her kong with kibble and lamb treat. I rubbed the kong all over with some of the lamb treat. She was busy with it most of midday. I refilled it and she polished that off, too. 

I decided tonite to feed her in the computer room as I noticed she drank more water than usual when I left it in there today. To my surprise she ate all her supper with no whining. She must really not like the kitchen. The only time she whined today was a little while ago when she came in from outdoors and stood in the porch looking at me. I said 'in' and she whined but went into the house ok. 

I would prefer not to have her food in the computer room, but I am worried about how little she's eaten for the last couple days. I don't leave the bowl down for more than 20 minutes, so I think I can live with that arrangement. 

I decided not to do the puppy class after talking again with the dog trainer who has been coming to my house. He says she is not ready because of being so new to the leash. There are more classes this fall, so I can wait, I guess. 

I did laundry today and Maggie is disappointed to find the laundry basket empty. I think she likes it when I laugh and laugh over finding my clothes on her little rug.


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## davetgabby

Kay that's not a bad idea to feed her where she seems more comfortable. And as far as the classes ,the trainer is probably right. It might overwhelm her. Have you tried doing the leash training like the article I sent you mentioned. Keep ignoring the whines. You're doing great .


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## kaydm

Dave, I cannot find the article. I hope you can resend. Thanks


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## davetgabby

kaydm said:


> Dave, I cannot find the article. I hope you can resend. Thanks


Hi Kay I sent it via your personal email that you gave me. It was a little too long to send via this forum.


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## davetgabby

As far as the whining . Here is more advice.
When does the whining end?


A better question is, How can I teach my dog to stop whining? This is a wonderful theoretical question to ask because it has behavior modification psychologists caught between a rock and a hard place: You can’t reassure the dog, as that would reinforce the whining, but neither can you reprimand the dog because that would give him two reasons to whine. So how do you deal with this?

It’s the same problem in dogs, interestingly, as it is in children – or even husbands! There is no appropriate or effective feedback you can give that won’t make the whining worse. There is only one solution for getting rid of this behavior, and that is to wait for it to stop. I don’t know when it will stop, but it always does. And when the whining stops, that’s when you give the whinee, lots of good, genuine attention. 

Basically, you need to imagine your dog has a split personality: There’s Whining Dog and there’s Hush Dog. Totally ignore Whining Dog. But to Hush Dog, pay lots of attention. And the quicker you pay attention to Hush Dog – and remember, he becomes Hush Dog the minute he stops whining – the quicker this technique will work. Before you know it Whining Dog will move along leaving you to live with Hush dog for a lifetime


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## hvapuppy2

davetgabby said:


> As far as the whining . Here is more advice.
> When does the whining end?
> 
> A better question is, How can I teach my dog to stop whining? This is a wonderful theoretical question to ask because it has behavior modification psychologists caught between a rock and a hard place: You can't reassure the dog, as that would reinforce the whining, but neither can you reprimand the dog because that would give him two reasons to whine. So how do you deal with this?
> 
> It's the same problem in dogs, interestingly, as it is in children - or even husbands! There is no appropriate or effective feedback you can give that won't make the whining worse. There is only one solution for getting rid of this behavior, and that is to wait for it to stop. I don't know when it will stop, but it always does. And when the whining stops, that's when you give the whinee, lots of good, genuine attention.
> 
> Basically, you need to imagine your dog has a split personality: There's Whining Dog and there's Hush Dog. Totally ignore Whining Dog. But to Hush Dog, pay lots of attention. And the quicker you pay attention to Hush Dog - and remember, he becomes Hush Dog the minute he stops whining - the quicker this technique will work. Before you know it Whining Dog will move along leaving you to live with Hush dog for a lifetime


Dave, you're right, but it takes good timing to get the dog to understand they are being rewarded for the hush... I have this problem with Jake. At class he barks and barks when he sees the movement. So I have to remove him from the source that causes the behavior and gradually build up to that big excitement...that's why the moving to the computer room for dinner is a good idea...if the dog does not whine there, then reward there...and gradually move towards the kitchen.

I find when the dog has a job to do they are also less likely to whine. So while preparing dinner, I leave Jake in his crate with the door wide open. He knows he is not allowed to leave the crate until i say break...this keeps him thinking, controlling his impulse to whine.

When a dog is whining they are displaying the lack of impulse control. The "it's yer choice game" that I shared somewhere in this forum ha ha, is great to teach impulse control. Reminds me, I should practise that with Pika boo...off to do that !

See this thread is good for all of us :grouphug:


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## kaydm

Today was so fun with Maggie. I took her to get groomed. Instead of putting her in the small carrier which she hates, I just put a giant laundry basket in the back seat with her little napping rug in it. She looked out the windows and never whined or cried once. Yay.

When I picked her up, they told me that Maggie was more relaxed this time compared to her first time. I was told they played with her. Would have loved to have seen that. There was a small curly brown dog in the lobby with his owner. Maggie's tail went crazy, so I put her on the floor and let her walk up to that dog who was very friendly. They seemed to like each other.

On the way out, I saw a small cat on the counter. I stopped to say hello with Maggie in my arms. The cat licked my cheek and rubbed her head against Maggie's head. Maggie seemed to like the cat, sniffing and letting the cat continue to rub against her head. So I learned she likes cats, too.

Then, I took Maggie to Petco where someone I used to work with now has a parttime job. Since business was slow,  Maggie gots lots of attention from 5 or 6 clerks. One clerk put her face right up to Maggie's and Maggie sniffed her and I was amazed at seeing that. One clerk took me around the store trying out a harness to hook the leash to. Maggie responded to her saying 'come one, Mags, let's go'. Off she went on the leash. 

ONe clerk noticed that whenever anyone talked to her or offered her a dog cookie, Maggie would look to me first before deciding if the person or cookie was ok. What a hoot.

Since it was 65 degrees and likely the last nice day of the year, I took Maggie for a walk with her new harness. I think it's good. Maggie walked closer to me than she ever has before. 

Maggie has come so far. Wow, I'm overwhelmed when I think of the first few weeks with her. I just love her.


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## davetgabby

Oh Kay that is wonderful . Those are really good signs. She is coming around beautifully. And you deserve the credit. Just still keep things low key with gradual introductions. One person at a time ,one dog at a time. You are doing great. So glad for you. Keep us updated.


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## Havanase100

Kay, I dont even have my hav yet.. I have been reading this thread religiously and I just want to tell you how much it's touched me and how great of a person you are for keeping maggie and loving her even with the issues she has. Clearly she has come so far and they are being resolved already! Maggie is adorable as well

Aaron


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## kaydm

You know, when I think about it, Maggie suits my experience with pets which has always been cats. Cats decide when they want to be affectionate and are really pretty independent by nature. That's all I have ever known til now. Maggie, of course, needs closer attention -- more than I ever gave a cat. But, like my last cat, she rarely says anything. And she naps some during the day like a cat will do.

Unlike a cat, her intelligence just shines out of her eyes. I love it when I talk to her and she tilts her head as if pondering my words. lol


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## Havanase100

Is maggie really nice and friendly today? Playful? How is your relationship today? can i have your personal email? Just to see how she is doign daily and stuff and if i have any questions. Do you have an instant messenger or anyhting?


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## Sheri

Thank you for sharing your good day with us. It is heartwarming to read about.


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## marjrc

Dave wrote: *"Basically, you need to imagine your dog has a split personality: There's Whining Dog and there's Hush Dog."*

Great analogy! I will remember this. Thank you, Dave. 

Kay, that is wonderful to hear! Maggie being friendly at the groomers' and at Petco is a huge deal and I'm celebrating right along with you! :whoo:


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## kaydm

This morning I heard a small crash in the livingroom. Found Maggie had pulled a paperback book off the coffetable. I replaced it. Later, heard another small crash, and the same book was again on the floor. Got a phone call just then and tossed the book back on the coffeetable as I picked up the phone. When I returned to the livingroom, I found Miss Maggie had gotten the book again and this time shredded the first few pages. Guess she didn't like the title: Language of Letting Go, meditations for codependents. lol


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## kaydm

It's so goofy that Maggie always just stands in the evidence and doesn't move. Are Havs that proud?


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## Kathie

Oh, she looks so cute standing there not looking at all guilty.....lol 

Abby used to rip up magazines and newspapers all the time when we first got her but she hasn't done it for quite a while so our things are finally safe on the coffee table again!


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## gelbergirl

oh she is proud, and are those a few papers near her mouth!!
ha ha, Maggie is a shredder . . put the books elsewhere!


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## kaydm

Well, as I was reading emails, I glanced down to see if Maggie was still napping. I was dumbstruck to see that somehow she had brought my cellphone in here. Things are sure not safe on the coffeetable.

Now who are you going to call, Miss Maggie:


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## maryam187

Looks like she's got 'your number'! It's unbelievable how they 'dare' staying near the mess and look proud about it.


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## Sheri

Awww, the Havanese-paper-shredding-gene raises it's head yet again! Ha! She looks quite please with her efforts, and how handy that she can bring your cell phone to you....


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## kaydm

I think these last 3 days of unrelenting rain has Maggie acting out. She hasn't spent much time outdoors tracking squirrel and chipmunk trails which is her favorite thing.

After my last two posts, I have picked up after she pulled sweatpants out of the laundry basket, socks out of my walking shoes, dishtowel and handtowel off the hooks in the kitchen. And the topper, somehow she got my favorite little sleeping pillow from the easy chair and flipped it on top of her water dish. So, it's wet and I'll need to put the blowdryer on it so I can use it tonite.

I wonder if she is going thru a puppy phase that she missed out on living in a cage.


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## davetgabby

that's funny Kay. No one to blame but yourself for these two incidents. LOL Dogs will be dogs and the easiest way to avoid these sort of things is to keep them out of reach. Love the look on her face. I know you probably laughed it off.


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## davetgabby

Nothing wrong with that ,if it doesn't bother you too much. It's her way of Hav ing fun. Be glad she is entertaining herself. Just watch out for good clothes , I would get a separate laundry basket for her. LOL>


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## kaydm

Laughed alot today -- what else are ya gonna do?


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## Milo's Mom

Kay,

Maggie is starting to act like a typical Hav - "I just love it!" You must have a great big smile on your face.


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## Pixiesmom

She is very very cute!


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## kaydm

One of my friends explained the cellphone this way. She said Maggie was going to call a bookbinder to fix up the book she chewed. lol


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## kaydm

This week I am dog sitting the Hav next door, Lonnie. I discovered that Maggie is an agressive herder, especially when Lonnie gets near the gate and looks longingly at her home. I was very surprised at Maggie.


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## Lunastar

Oh kay,

I am just catching up on Maggie's adventures. I think it is wonderful she is getting into things. I think it must mean she is more comfortable at home now. How amazing you are.


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## kaydm

Maggie is doing something new this past week. I think I started it. When she indicated she wanted to go out, I ran to the door, excitedly saying 'come on, Maggie, let's go out'. Then I ran across the porch to open the back door still saying ' come on, Maggie'. She ran behind me and ran out into the yard, hopping with her tail up and wagging. She turned and looked at me and jumped around.

I have been doing this along with sometimes going out into the yard after she does her business and running and encouraging her to run after me. So far, she just looks at me and doesn't follow me. But she still gets excited when I run thru the house and the porch and she really looks like she is having fun with me.

I really think Maggie would like to have a pal. She is so happy with other small dogs and she wants to play with them. The one next door is is a bust in that department.

I have found out about a little Havanese male who needs a home and am emailing with the owner as well as someone who has a littermate of this little guy. I am thinking of adding this little guy to my household. I think it would make both me and Maggie happy.


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## Havanase100

Yeah! Good idea! You are going to have your handsful though


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## davetgabby

Kay which one are you thinking of.? Why are they getting rid of them.?


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## kaydm

Well, Dave, here is the story. The owner is not a breeder. Her mom got a male in 2008. Then the owner (daughter) got a female. And then the two dogs got together and a litter of 4 pups ensued. One of the pups is owned by a member of this forum who told me about her good feelings about the owner who needs to find homes for this litter. There are 2 pups left aged 5 months, living within the owner's home. Owner made vet info available to the forum member who checked up on the pup she eventually got. It's all good.


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## kaydm

Also, owner lives in a town where I have family and friends and so could go and see for myself.


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## davetgabby

if you feel you are up to it, but keep in mind that you should be getting one for you , not Maggie.


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## davetgabby

Here are some ideas to consider. http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/living-multiple-dogs-101-part-1-be-friend


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## BeverlyA

Kay! It only took you 70 days to discover Hav's are like the potato chips, you can't have just one! :tea:

So happy to read about Maggie's continuing progress.

Beverly


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## kaydm

Oh Dave, do you really have to be the voice of reason? I read the article and it does seem that I am guilty, guilty, guilty. I want Maggie to be happy. I want to see the personality all day long that she only exhibits around another small dog. She is not a lover and probably never will be, and this little guy is a cuddler and a kisser, just what I want.

However, Maggie is not thoroughly trained yet. We have only been together for about 10 weeks. She continually is demonstrating that she can and will learn new things. That makes me happy.

If I go to meet the one pup, I'd probably bring home the other one too. I will get a grip. It's just that the pup is available now. I guess I'll just have to trust next year there will be another one.


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## davetgabby

Kay , I am not trying to talk you out of getting another one, but you have to be willing to take on the added responsibility. One thing that is encouraging ,even though you haven't totally bonded with Maggie ,is the fact that she does get along with other dogs. That is a huge plus. If Maggie didn't get along so well, I would not recommend another one. But if you feel like the added work , go for it.


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## kaydm

I am so new at being a dog owner, Dave. You have lots of experience and I respect your opinions. That article made a lot of sense. Thanks


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## Lunastar

Kay listen to your heart. Can you handle the work of two. Sometimes they learn well together, other times they distract eachother. My girls do both. LOL Although if one (usually Bella) gets something the other isn't far behind. Also watching another dog cuddle could show Maggie that culddling is good.


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## kaydm

Thanks Luna. I think the plus of this situation is that the little guy is not a newborn pup and has been raised with both dog parents in a home. The owner sounds like a young adult who said she didn't know her famale dog (who was probably in her first heat cycle) could get pregnant before she could be spayed. sigh. I think the owner also lives with her parents who have the male dog parent. 

On the negative side, Maggie gives me no signals whatsoever that she needs to go out and do her business. I just watch her and the clock and put her out. Not entirely satisfactory to me. 

Also, I was a little upset the other day seeing Maggie so aggressively herding the Hav who lives next door. That dog had had enough play time and wanted to go home. Maggie kept herding her away from the gate. Maggie kept circling her and jumping and bowing and circling til my teeth were on edge and I put a stop to it. No biting or barking though.

I think Maggie would do that to a young pup too. The next door Hav is 8 yrs. old and was intimidated. I think a pup would be too.

Maggie does not know basic commands yet and I think her whining would be a bad example to a pup. Maggie is getting quite a repertoire of whines, some of which I do understand.

Maggie is now better at doing what I want her to do sooner than she used to. Like tonite, I said 'crate' and she went right in without running away like she used to. I think she is accepting me as top dog and obeying.

I think both Maggie and I will be better to live with each other and not introduce a new member of the household. If I want to cuddle a dog, I'll just go to my friend's home and cuddle her 90 lb. monster who thinks she's a lap dog. lol


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## HavaneseSoon

Listen to your heart.....there will always be next year or 6 months from now.


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## Lunastar

Maggie's whines may just be her way of talking to you. Zoey whines and grunts at me. We have whole converstaions. LOL Well the grunts usually mean she needs to do something right now! LOL Bella sometimes makes little growy noises to join the conversation and then I have two cats who add to the clammer. haha Most of the time the girls are pretty quiet though. That cats on the other hand.... LOL

You listen to your heart it will tell you what is right. I am glad Maggie seems to understanding you are top dog. You know you could always ask to bring the dog home and see how she does. If not this time then when ever you decide it is right to try to add another member to your family.


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## kaydm

Luna, if I went up to the city where that pup is and saw him and his brother, I would be bringing both of them home. And not just for a trial either. I'm hopeless. 

I'm pretty clear today that it will just be Maggie and me thru the winter. That's a good 5 or 6 months of outdoor misery. 

I just saw the pics of Havs with little snowballs clinging to them after they had been out in the snow. Oh joy. Maggie is not a happy camper when I wipe her off if it's raining outside. I'll hope for a mild winter with little snow.


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## davetgabby

I wish I liked the snow as much as Molly does. I have to shovel more snow for her than I do for the driveway and sidewalk. Last year was a heavy one. She loves chasing the shovel . Last year Molly got so many iceballs on her feet on one walk that I had to carry her the rest of the way home.


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## Lunastar

So glad we have no snow. LOL


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## davetgabby

Lunastar said:


> So glad we have no snow. LOL


ahhh Luna , I envy you. Do you ever get any snow.?


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## Lunastar

Very seldom and then it doesn't stick. I think the last time it snowed was in the 90s. Of course our temps are still in the 90s right now. I'm so sick of the heat. Seasons have their good points.


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## RikiDaisyDixie

*Lucky Maggie*

a personal masseuse for a mom! And a havanese neighbor! Wow, she is a lucky girl and very pretty too. She has the nicest eyeliner around her eyes and her coat looks silky smooth.

Some day soon you will not be able to go to the toilet without her jumping up on your lap or scratching at the door to get in.

Sounds like you are both falling in love.

My Riki is six today, I've been hopelessly and totally in love all those years and I was a cat person too! We lost both of our cats the last two year, one was eighteen and one nineteen. Both of my havanese always loved the cats and didn't chase them until they got sick...which probably meant something...

Ah well, welcome to the wonderful world of havanese...


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## kaydm

Linda, what nice things you say. Love your tag line.

Today, I was in the backyard talking over the fence with Martha, my neighbor. Her Hav kept jumping up on the fence and Martha encouraged me to bring her over to my yard. Maggie was hanging back wagging her tail hoping for a playmate for awhile. While Martha and I were talking, we didn't pay attention to the dogs. I looked up after awhile and no dogs. I had the porch door propped open so assumed they both went in the house. Sure enough both were roaming the livingroom. I said to them 'let's goooo!' and took off running for the outdoors. I hit the yard still running followed by 2 hopping, jumping, grinning Havs. It was so fun.


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## Lunastar

Oh it sounds like you had a good time. Maggie is really coming along.


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## kaydm

What on earth is with my Maggie and her fixation of pawing thru the laundry basket til she finds my undies and drags them to her sleeping rug? It's so weird.


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## davetgabby

Wait til Maggie brings a pair of your undies out when company is over. LoL . The only thing to worry about is that she does eat them. Besides the fact that she will ruin your clothes. But it is a sign that she loves the smell of you and is comforted by it. So take that as a good thing. Simple solution (so long as she doesn't eat these things or rip them apart) 1. secure them better ,2. give her an old t-shirt to comfort her. She woves you Kay, and you wove her. LOL


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## Lunastar

Dave is right, so long as she isn't eating them no harm done. I think someone here had one of theirs run through the house with a pair when she had a first date picking her up. Shoot I want to say it was Riley but I'm not sure. lol


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## Sheri

Luna, you are right! I don't remember if it was a first date or not for Jean Marie, but Riley greeted him with a pair of her "old lady" plain pair of undergarments. Ha!


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## kaydm

The first date story is a hoot!

Something new for Maggie to report. When I want to go for a walk with Maggie, I carry her outdoors as she balks at the door when on leash. The last two times we went out, when I put her on the ground, she jumped up and down a couple times and I thought I saw a tail wag. Her face looked like she was excited to go for a walk with me. She is walking closer to me than she did at first. 

I learned that guys on bicycles scare her as do joggers with big dogs on leash. Also, she hates the wood planking on the bridge and the fast running water of the creek. So now I know that will be our turn around point on the bike/hike trail near my home. 

Yesterday, we explored that trail as I had never gone all the way across the little bridge to see where the trail goes. An hour later, we got home. It was between 2 and 4 miles and today my legs are achey. Maggie napped a little more today that usual, but we had fun. Took the day off with no walking at all. We need to recuperate.


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## davetgabby

good going Kay. Sounds like you are making more progress. Make sure to take treats and as soon as she sees one of the "scary" things , give her a treat. Have people give her treats. Never force her to encounter anything she is afraid of .Flooding is never recommended. Try to avoid any situations that you know will freighten her . Once she slowly sees that the world is not that freightening ,she will gradually become more confident. Doing great.


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## marjrc

Such progress, Kay! That's wonderful !! :clap2:


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## jillnors2

You are doing such a great job, good Mommy, great Mommy!!!!


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## Lunastar

Kay you and Maggie are doing so well together. She has come so far with your love and attention. You are the perfect mommy for her. Your love is apparent in every word.


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## kaydm

Yesterday when Maggie and I started out our walk, Maggie was really jumping with excitement. So I took off running with her. She really ran right along with me. We walked some more and then a couple more times I yelled 'let's run' and we did! Did I tell you I am nearly 65 and not at all a runner? But it was so fun and Maggie liked it.


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## kaydm

I forgot to say how entranced I was seeing Maggie running as it looked like all 4 feet were in the air at the same time. She was going all out.


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## davetgabby

Great stuff Kay. Run Like Hell Maggie ,just don't trip your Mom. LOL .You know Kay, I really enjoy this thread .I could never get tired of hearing how such a dog is progressing from nowhere to where she is today. Your posts ,and her improvements are uplifting. Keep em coming.


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## Redorr

kaydm said:


> What on earth is with my Maggie and her fixation of pawing thru the laundry basket til she finds my undies and drags them to her sleeping rug? It's so weird.


Sounds like Maggie is showing 100% Hav behavior! My dogsitter, Suzanne, took Lola to visit her stepdad overnight. In the morning while they were having their coffee, Lola came careening into the kitchen with Suzanne's panties over her head! She couldn't have been more mortified! You gotta love a Hav! Have fun with Maggie's growing confidence and your walk/runs.


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## Sheri

kaydm said:


> Yesterday when Maggie and I started out our walk, Maggie was really jumping with excitement. So I took off running with her. She really ran right along with me. We walked some more and then a couple more times I yelled 'let's run' and we did! Did I tell you I am nearly 65 and not at all a runner? But it was so fun and Maggie liked it.


Wow, sounds like Maggie is going to whip you into better shape! Hahaha!! Love the mind-picture that this makes. Happy, happy story. :bounce:


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## marb42

So glad to hear that Maggie is progressing so well. You've done such a good job with her, and it really shows!


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## Forbulous

There is somehting magical about how the run isn't there? 
My Molly is white, and runs like a hopping rabbit...I liek to make her run, just so I can watch her...and the pure look of glee on her face!


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## Lunastar

OH kay, Maggie is just improving by leaps and bounds. I agree with Dave, I love hearing about her progress. You are doing amazing work with her.


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## kaydm

Today on our walk, Maggie was introduced to the retired minister across the street who pronounced her 'a cute little fellah." lol Then further down the street Maggie met Doze, the giant German Shepherd (sp?) who barks loud enough to hear 2 blocks away. He is so friendly, just excited to have company in the yard. Maggie hung back at first but eventually sniffed noses with him. So cute.

When we walk, Maggie continually looks up at me. When we first started walking, I thought she was figuring out how far she could stay away from me. Now, she walks closer to me but still continues to look up at me. She lets the leash be looser now, and doesn't pull hard on it anymore.

What freaks me out is when she gets freaked by some noise or something she's afraid of and drops into a a fetal position. It hurts my heart. I just say ' let's go, Maggie' and she gets up and we continue. I think she is really getting into this walking thing with me.

I wish I didn't have to trick her to catch her to put her harness on. She still doesn't like to be picked up and held by me. At least she doesn't hold it against me once we get going.


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## Lynn

My dogs love walking with us, I can't help thinking that soon Maggie will be beggie you for walks. She might always be scared of somethings, might take sometime to get over that. 

I so glad to hear Maggie is doing good.


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## davetgabby

The more you walk her Kay ,the less she will react to "scary things" The more you relax ,the more she will. Keep it up ,it's good for both of you.


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## RikiDaisyDixie

*havanese love...*

You see you are hopelessly "addicted" to your little gal. The healthiest addiction there is! And she will continue to surprise you. Each day she will prove her resilience as she garners trust. And the more she falls in love with you, the more you will fall in love with her. She tore up your book because doggy love is healthy dependency...as long as you let her do for herself what she can and will...

Havanese are very, very sensitive and they almost read your mind. Trust her strengths and she will prove to you that she is all that she can be. A havanut!


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## kaydm

Linda, you wrote: She tore up your book because doggy love is healthy dependency...as long as you let her do for herself what she can and will...

Since the book was on co-dependency, that just cracked me up.


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## Lunastar

Kay, Maggie is looking at you because you are her person. She loves you. Your story here is bringing me much joy. I bet this story is going to help others who also take on a rescue like Maggie. You are her angel.


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## marjrc

There is almost nothing I love more than seeing my dogs run! There is a pure joy about it and it warms the heart and makes me laugh. Now that my 3 kids are teens, they don't run with the same freedom that the Havs do ! They run because they need to catch the bus or something! lol


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## kaydm

Well, Luna, I sure didn't feel like much of an angel today. I had to patiently figure out how to catch Maggie so I could brush her and apply Frontline. After I did that, I put her on my lap and petted and massaged her. She no longer shakes, just puts up with it and can't wait to go outside afterwards. It probably wouldn't be so bad if she didn't vigorously shake her whole body immediately after I put her on the floor. Like she shakes me off and is out the door.


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## Lunastar

Oh Kay my girls do that too. I just think they are fluffing their dos. LOL I am sure she is not shaking you off. You are so good to keep up with that massage. In time I am sure Maggie will come to love the petting and attention. You are an angel, sometime as angels we have to do things we and they don't like because it is what is best for them.


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## Sheri

Ha, Kay, Tucker always shakes off, too. I think he has to put each hair in place just the way _he_ wants it, not the way _I_ put it.


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## davetgabby

How's things going Kay? How's the walkies going. ?


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## kaydm

Maggie and I have been walking alot until today. Yesterday was 62 degrees and sunny here. Such a perfect day for walking. Maggie met an elkhound yesterday who was so very sweet. The elkhound kept resting her nose on top Maggie's head. Maggie wasn't too sure she liked how big that dog was. She liked the smaller greyhound and especially liked the little boston terrier we met later on the trail.

Maggie still doesn't care to be petted. She does not like to be picked up. She will not come to me. She will sit still for brushing after I catch her. She seems to enjoy walking with me. Her tail is not tucked between her legs anymore, either.

Maggie still will not take food from my hand. On the other hand, she always seems to find which room I'm in (except for the kitchen) and comes and lays down to either watch me or nap.

I'm still running to open the door so she can go outside. She is so fun to see bounding after me. She now stops at the door and turns and looks at me and then bounds out into the yard. She keeps looking at the windows to see if I'm there.

Maggie has gained weight since her spay surgery. She has gained 1 pound and 2 ounces since August. she is now 10 pounds 8 ounces. I'm glad as she seemed very thin to me when I got her.










I'm still glad I have Maggie and just accept her as she is with a little hope that in time, she may be a little more less afraid.


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## marltonmommy

Kay,

I have been following this thread since it started and am always so thankful to see that you haven't given up on Maggie. You are certainly a blessing to that little girl. From everything that I have read you are doing a wonderful job with her. She may never be everything that you thought you wanted her to be but she seems to be a very sweet girl who just really needs love, understanding and patience. Thank you for giving her all those things and in time she will continue to trust you and love you more and more. She has come such a long way and will continue with your continued patience and love. I can see a difference in her face and eyes from your previous pictures to this one that you posted. Maybe it's me but she looks happy and content.

Patty


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## murphymoesmamma

Oh Kay, I just love the story of you and your little Maggie!


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## kudo2u

I have been reading this thread, as well, although I haven't posted in quite a while.

My Tango was a rescue, and was 4 when I got her. She's 8 now, and in some ways I still can't treat her the same as the other dogs. But she's SOOOO sweet, I can't imagine my life without her!

You're doing SUCH an amazing job with Maggie! You're letting her develop her own personality at her own pace. You're letting her learn what she likes (walks) and what she doesn't like (eating in the kitchen) but are also enforcing rules and boundaries that all dogs so desperately need.

All of my dogs shake off after they've been held or petted - I think that's just a dog behavior. And she probably does really enjoy being loved and petted. But she's still very young, so her attention span is very short, and she has LOTS of energy to drain!

I have a new rescue, Bandit, who is 9 months. He LOVES his pets and attention and will come begging if he's feeling left out. But even with this need for affection, the longest he's ever held still for rubs and kisses is about 4 minutes! Tango on the other hand (my 8 year old) has really grown into a velcro dog. She would love nothing more than to sit on my lap 23-7 (have to have time in there to eat and potty....) However it took a good 2.5-3 years for Tango to really become that way. Not because I wanted a velcro dog, just because slowly over time her trust in me continued to grow, and because she continues to mellow as she ages. I think you'll probably find this to be true as well.

Also, I can't find it now, but if you want to google it, there is actually a book on massage therapy for dogs. With your training and background, I bet this would really help you and Maggie bond. I read it once - I believe it even shows diagrams and sketches to help you understand the muscle groups and where to apply (gentle) pressure.

Anyway, just wanted to say I think you're doing a great job! Keep up the good work!


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## Lunastar

Kay,

Maggie has come so far. I know it is hard to see how much when you are there watching it daily. She has her tail up, that is huge. She will eventually come to you, maybe not when you call her. I think over time she will become more and more affectionate. My Romeo (cat) was feral, he will be three this January(we are guessing on the month). He still can not sit in my lap for more than a 15 to 20 minutes. I can however walk the house while carrying him for hours. He still runs ands hides when the girls bark at something outside or someone comes in the door. He will now come out while the company is still over. Yesterday for the first time he came into the exercise room while I was storing holiday gifts in there. I was so pround of him. He had always been afraid to go in there. He has decided there are some guests he loves and will rub on their legs like crazy. It is small baby steps. I call it Romy time.

You will be surprised a few years from now you will think back to how Maggie was and you will be amazed at her progress. You just keep loving her and letting her learn, grow and trust in Maggie time. You are her angel.


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## davetgabby

Hi Kay, I like your attitude. What's meant to be is meant to be. As far as the picking up goes. Whenever she is nearby simply pick her up give a big treat, and set her down. Slowly increase the duration that you hold her, but do it in small incriments. Once she knows that good things happen when she is picked up ,she will look at it differently. Phase out the treats when she seems comfortable with it. Looking good though ,and it's coming slow but sure.


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## kaydm

kudo2u I'm sorry I don't know your name, but you talked about massage for Maggie. In the first few weeks I had her, she would freeze when I came near her. One day while she was lying on the rug, I got down on the floor and she froze. I massaged her to the point her little legs just went limp. It was so cool. 

Now when I pick her up and put her on my lap and massage her, she is very still and does relax some but not the way she did that one time.

Muscles are muscles, human or doggy. It's all the same.


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## krandall

Hi Kay, 

What I'm struck by is the difference in Maggie's facial expression between your Avatar, which, if I remember correctly, was shortly after you brought her home, and the photo you just posted. She's still the same beautiful girl, but look how much more confident, relaxed and happy she looks!

She may still have a long way to go, but you have brought her SO far in a fairly short period of time!


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## kudo2u

kaydm said:


> kudo2u I'm sorry I don't know your name, but you talked about massage for Maggie. In the first few weeks I had her, she would freeze when I came near her. One day while she was lying on the rug, I got down on the floor and she froze. I massaged her to the point her little legs just went limp. It was so cool.
> 
> Now when I pick her up and put her on my lap and massage her, she is very still and does relax some but not the way she did that one time.
> 
> Muscles are muscles, human or doggy. It's all the same.


Kay, my name is Jo. Sorry, I forget that it's not prominently displayed!

You're absolutely right - muscles are muscles. And I'm SO glad you had that experience with Maggie! I bet she didn't know what to think, because I bet she had never truly felt the love of human hands before. I bet you'll get there with her again, although don't be surprised if it takes a while (months probably).

I have been searching for this book and I can't find it. I actually saw it at a hotel - I used to travel a lot for work, and I used to take my pomeranian with me. We stayed at this awesome hotel in Chicago and the provided the dog massage book as part of their welcome package for pets. I've checked with the hotel and they don't offer the book anymore, and they also can't tell me the title, as it's been several years since this was discontinued.

The thing I liked about it - the book told you how to massage your dog (which you already know), but it told you their "pressure points." I don't remember much, but one of the things I do know is their ears are very sensitive, and if you can get your dog to relax enough for you to rub their ears, massaging around the base, then stroking the actual ear between your thumb and forefinger, it's supposed to be very relaxing and stress-relieving for them. There were a BUNCH of little tips like this, and that is what I was hoping to provide as a reference for you.

I'll keep searching!!!


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## kaydm

Those tips do sound great. Thanks


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## davetgabby

kudo2u said:


> Kay, my name is Jo. Sorry, I forget that it's not prominently displayed!
> 
> You're absolutely right - muscles are muscles. And I'm SO glad you had that experience with Maggie! I bet she didn't know what to think, because I bet she had never truly felt the love of human hands before. I bet you'll get there with her again, although don't be surprised if it takes a while (months probably).
> 
> I have been searching for this book and I can't find it. I actually saw it at a hotel - I used to travel a lot for work, and I used to take my pomeranian with me. We stayed at this awesome hotel in Chicago and the provided the dog massage book as part of their welcome package for pets. I've checked with the hotel and they don't offer the book anymore, and they also can't tell me the title, as it's been several years since this was discontinued.
> 
> The thing I liked about it - the book told you how to massage your dog (which you already know), but it told you their "pressure points." I don't remember much, but one of the things I do know is their ears are very sensitive, and if you can get your dog to relax enough for you to rub their ears, massaging around the base, then stroking the actual ear between your thumb and forefinger, it's supposed to be very relaxing and stress-relieving for them. There were a BUNCH of little tips like this, and that is what I was hoping to provide as a reference for you.
> 
> I'll keep searching!!!


Hi Jo , if its the book I'm thinking of , it might be called T Touch , or Tellington Touch. Yes , a whole network of people teach this ,and from what I've heard it is wonderful. Kay you would be great at this with your human background.


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## marjrc

Kay, how nice to meet you and your sweet Maggie girl ! You've made remarkable progress with her and you should be proud. You definitely have formed a relationship and in time, in her own time and with encouragement, she'll change bit by bit. She has yet to show off her true personality, I'm thinking. As Jo mentioned (nice to know your name Jo!  ), you're both learning what she and you like and don't like. I'm still learning about my Ricky and Sammy and I've had them 3 yrs. (Ricky) and 2.5 yrs. (Sammy)!


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## kaydm

Three times today I have shoveled 2 inches of snow each time by the back door and beyond. When Maggie went out today in the early morning 4 inches of snow, it was past her knees. She bounded around the yard and ate snow til her face was covered.

This last time she went out and bounded easily in the area I shoveled. She was brought to a screeching halt by the the 6 or more inches of unshoveled snow which hit just below her chin. It was so funny to see. She tried it 3 times and got the message that she wouldn't be roaming the yard any time soon.

It has only been 45 minutes and already there is another inch where I shoveled. I hate that the weather forecasters say words like "storm of epic proportions". I didn't care before I had Maggie. Good thing I have great leg muscles and biceps, too. lol


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## Lunastar

LOL Kay, Maggie sounds like hoot in the snow. I'm betting my little darlings would look at me like I had two head if I expected them to go in the snow. I guess they are true Florida girls. 

All that shoveling will have you swimsuit ready come summer, no matter what you eat during the holidays.

Would love pictures of Maggie enjoying the snow.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

kaydm said:


> Three times today I have shoveled 2 inches of snow each time by the back door and beyond. When Maggie went out today in the early morning 4 inches of snow, it was past her knees. She bounded around the yard and ate snow til her face was covered.
> 
> This last time she went out and bounded easily in the area I shoveled. She was brought to a screeching halt by the the 6 or more inches of unshoveled snow which hit just below her chin. It was so funny to see. She tried it 3 times and got the message that she wouldn't be roaming the yard any time soon.
> 
> It has only been 45 minutes and already there is another inch where I shoveled. I hate that the weather forecasters say words like "storm of epic proportions". I didn't care before I had Maggie. Good thing I have great leg muscles and biceps, too. lol


I would love to see photos of Maggie in that snow also..wonderful results you are having with her, I know you love her!!


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## davetgabby

Yeah Kay my Molly loves the snow ,and we are supposed to get our first major blast tomorrow. Just when I have to take my wife in for surgery. Winter sucks. I spend as much time shovelling the deck and part of the back yard for Molly as I do my sidewalk and driveway. But we have not had any til now. Glad she is liking the snow. It is fun to watch them running in it.


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## kaydm

Dave, I wish you and your wife well on your travel to surgery. I hope things come out well for her, too.

Here is one early morning pic I got of Maggie. I was trying to get a pic of her eating snow but she decided to come in too soon for that.


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## Scooter's Family

Dave, hope all goes well with the surgery.

Please take pics of Maggie playing in the snow!!! All we have here is rain and that's no fun!


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## Sheri

Look at that little face with a snow-beard! She's darling! I'm trying to figure out, though, how she has so much snow on her face and no snowballs on her legs...she's good! :smow:


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## kaydm

Not at all sure.


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## Scooter's Family

That's a really GREAT photo!!! Wish we had some snow.


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## kaydm

I just shoveled 3 to 4 more inches. We are forecast for up to a foot of snow by morning. Maggie was really wet with mini snowballs behinds her ears. She doesn't like to be picked up, but I had to do it in order to dry her off. I took the opportunity to pet her and massage her. 

I then put her down and went into the kitchen. When I returned to the computer room, I discovered that she had romped around with a couple pillows -- I suppose to work off her displeasure at being handled.


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## Scooter's Family

Mine run around like crazy after they get wet. Not sure if they're trying to dry off or if they want to be stinky again and hope they'll get that way if they squirm and run. It's funny to watch though, it's my favorite part of giving them baths!:bathbaby:


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## kaydm

At 10 pm we had 11 1/2 inches of snow and it won't quit for another 6 hours!

Can you pick out the dog?


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## Sheri

I'm so jealous of your snow!


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## Scooter's Family

It's back up to 63 here right now, at 6:30am. We have the craziest weather!


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## Lunastar

Dave, I hope your wifes surgery goes well. I will say a little prayer.

Oh Kay those are great pictures. I love her snow smile. hahaha 

OH Ann here we are breaking record highs, I'm so sick of the heat but really happy I am not shoveling white stuff. LOL


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## Kathie

Kay, Maggie looks adorable - you're lucky she likes the snow! It was nearly 80 degrees here today - crazy! Tomorrow is supposed to only get to 55! Abby doesn't mind the cold but she doesn't like to get wet!


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

kaydm said:


> Dave, I wish you and your wife well on your travel to surgery. I hope things come out well for her, too.
> 
> Here is one early morning pic I got of Maggie. I was trying to get a pic of her eating snow but she decided to come in too soon for that.


I love that picture. She does look so much more confident than in her earlier photos. I think she has come a long way, hasn't she?


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## kaydm

Yes, she has. Tonight I was telling a friend about changes in Maggie since she came to live with me. Right now she is on her napping rug watching me as I'm typing. She likes to be in whichever room I'm in but at the distance she feels comfortable. She doesn't like to be picked up but she no longer shakes when I pick her up.

Sometimes I talk to her and she cocks her head this way and that while I talk. It's fun to tease her by singing and dancing. Her little head just bops back and forth watching me.

A friend walked with me when I walked Maggie Sunday. Maggie did not like that someone else was with me. She strained ahead of us on the leash and wanted to just go very fast. I had a hard time slowing her down. Cut the walk short as my friend agred with me that Maggie was stressed. When we are by ourselves, she acts like she enjoys our walks. Quite a change from a few months ago when she didn't even know what a leash was for.

The biggest change I think is that she vocalizes with whines which I'm starting to be able to understand. I really got the one today at the outside door which I interpreted to mean, "Oh, you can't possibly be serious about my going out there."


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## marjrc

LOL Love that last comment of Maggie's. I don't blame her! What great pics of her in the snow. We got a whopper of a storm yesterday, and more is expected today. 

Try to find the "Fun Snow pictures" thread in the Fun Photo Assignment forum and post some there too. My guys love the snow, especially Ricky, but those dang snowballs are driving me nuts! Even with snowsuits, their feet are covered in little balls. I'm going to have to trim their legs which should be interesting. They have a lot of hair on their body, but with thinner legs, they won't look all that great! lol

Never mind, Kay........ I just realized I replied yesterday to a photo of Maggie in the snow in that thread !! LOL


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## kudo2u

davetgabby said:


> Hi Jo , if its the book I'm thinking of , it might be called T Touch , or Tellington Touch. Yes , a whole network of people teach this ,and from what I've heard it is wonderful. Kay you would be great at this with your human background.


Sorry - I've been out of the loop for a bit. This might actually be the book. I found it online and it looks pretty familiar. I really wish I had kept that book, now! Thanks so much for the reference!

Kay, check out that title and see if it's something you might find helpful. Even with no experience at all, I picked up a few things that I still use today to help bond with and relax my dogs.


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## kudo2u

Dave, good luck with your wife's surgery!

Kay, I LOVE the new pics of Maggie in the snow! She is looking so much more relaxed and happy! And so exciting that she wants to be in the same room with you!!! Continue to give her lots of love and lots of time and patience - she'll continue to come around.

Like I said, with Tango, it's been over 4 years and I *still* see changes in her!


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## Lunastar

You can order the Tellington touch books at Amazon. They have them used and fairly cheap. Mine came just the other day. I ordered the one for dogs and the one for cats. I have one cat that was feral but he is doing so much better. I want to try the massage with him and see if it will help speed things along.

Maggie looks so much happier in her pictures. She really has come so far. You are so good with her Kay.


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## davetgabby

Lunastar said:


> Dave, I hope your wifes surgery goes well. I will say a little prayer.
> 
> Oh Kay those are great pictures. I love her snow smile. hahaha
> 
> OH Ann here we are breaking record highs, I'm so sick of the heat but really happy I am not shoveling white stuff. LOL


Thanks Luna it went ok , she is just a little uncomfortable. yeah I am shovelling too. I shovel it and the wind blows in back.


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## kaydm

Kudo2u I'm sorry I don't know your name. How old was Tango when you got it? Do n't know if him or her, sorry.

Tonite I am feeling so frustrated. This morning Maggie refused to go outside when I let her out of her crate. When I wasn't looking, she peed and pooped in the house. I tried severall times throughout the day to get her outside but she will not go out. It is bitter cold here and the area I shoveled by the back door is pretty small. I don't think she likes that either. 

It has been 13 hours since she did her business and I don't know what to do. I am starting to really dislike this dog. She is not friendly to me or any other person. I don't want her to ruin my house. I think she is depressed since being cooped up with as all she will do is sleep or turn her head away from and lay quietly on the floor. 

She has never tried to play with any toys I gave her. She is indifferent to the bully stick. She will not eat in the morning unless I serve her kibble in her kong and refill it for her. She eats out of her bowl at night. I don't get it. 

I picked her up today and just loved on her and petted her. Now she's pissed as she really doesn't like that. How's this for self-pity---I have had clients pay lots of money for my great touch of massage so where does Maggie get off being so ungrateful? 

Ok now, maybe I have cabin fever and am blaming it all on the dog.. What do you think?


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## kudo2u

kaydm said:


> Kudo2u I'm sorry I don't know your name. How old was Tango when you got it? Do n't know if him or her, sorry.
> 
> Tonite I am feeling so frustrated. This morning Maggie refused to go outside when I let her out of her crate. When I wasn't looking, she peed and pooped in the house. I tried severall times throughout the day to get her outside but she will not go out. It is bitter cold here and the area I shoveled by the back door is pretty small. I don't think she likes that either.
> 
> It has been 13 hours since she did her business and I don't know what to do. I am starting to really dislike this dog. She is not friendly to me or any other person. I don't want her to ruin my house. I think she is depressed since being cooped up with as all she will do is sleep or turn her head away from and lay quietly on the floor.
> 
> She has never tried to play with any toys I gave her. She is indifferent to the bully stick. She will not eat in the morning unless I serve her kibble in her kong and refill it for her. She eats out of her bowl at night. I don't get it.
> 
> I picked her up today and just loved on her and petted her. Now she's pissed as she really doesn't like that. How's this for self-pity---I have had clients pay lots of money for my great touch of massage so where does Maggie get off being so ungrateful?
> 
> Ok now, maybe I have cabin fever and am blaming it all on the dog.. What do you think?


Hi Kay,

My name is Jo. Sorry, I thought I mentioned that but I guess not!

Tango is a she. I got her when she was 4. She's about 8.5 (getting close to 9) now. It took MONTHS before she really felt comfortable with me. She's still very particular - I can pick her up and hold her, but if anyone else does, she just freezes and won't react to them at all. Then when they put her down, she runs away with her tail tucked between her legs. She is still making progress, even after all this time. I still see new behaviors that just make me soooo happy, because they are "normal" dog behavior that she has never exhibited before.

As for you and Maggie..... this is what I think:

What if you were kidnapped as a young child by a foreign army. You were taken to their land and held captive. You didn't speak the language, didn't understand what was going on around you. You weren't necessarily treated poorly....but you were not given any special accommodation, either. You were given food and water, but a small confined space in which to live, and little to no contact with anything that would make you happy. You lived this way for years. No one bothered to teach you the language, or to help you understand what your job was supposed to be. They just kept providing food and water and left you to your own devices.

Then one day you were "traded" to a different government. This government also spoke a foreign language, also provided food and water, but this time the people made an effort to make you feel welcome. They provided more than just the bare necessities - they researched your background and found things that would be pleasing to you. They gave you things that were familiar to you as a child, but that you hadn't seen in years. They started to work with you, to teach you the language, to try and explain what your job was, and what they expected of you.

Although on some level I'm sure this would be a relief.....wouldn't you wonder what their underlying intent was? Wouldn't you wonder why they were spending all of this time and attention on teaching you their ways, when you had been ignored for so many years? Wouldn't you wonder why they brought in comforting items when you had lost use for them many years ago, because they had been absent from your life for so long?

That is what Maggie is going through right now. She knows you are different, she knows she is in a better situation. But she doesn't understand why, and she doesn't trust that it's going to last.

Give it time. She will come to you. She's already made progress - don't lose sight of how far you've come! :hug:


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## Lunastar

LOL Sounds to me like you are having a bit of cabin fever and so is Maggie. I would suggest you get some pee pads to put down for her if she will not go outside. Yes I know dogs are supposed to go outside, but you know you can lead a horse to water, Well you can take a dog out....

Maggie is probably picking up on your mood. Remember you are her everything. I know it does not seem that way to you, but to her you are all she has even if she doesn't show it to you. Try to remember how far she has come. 

Sounds like you need a nice outing for you just for fun. Are the roads to bad to drive? maybe a nice music concert or something. I know here a lot of the Churches are doing them for free, well small donations.


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## Lunastar

kudo2u said:


> Hi Kay,
> 
> My name is Jo. Sorry, I thought I mentioned that but I guess not!
> 
> Tango is a she. I got her when she was 4. She's about 8.5 (getting close to 9) now. It took MONTHS before she really felt comfortable with me. She's still very particular - I can pick her up and hold her, but if anyone else does, she just freezes and won't react to them at all. Then when they put her down, she runs away with her tail tucked between her legs. She is still making progress, even after all this time. I still see new behaviors that just make me soooo happy, because they are "normal" dog behavior that she has never exhibited before.
> 
> As for you and Maggie..... this is what I think:
> 
> What if you were kidnapped as a young child by a foreign army. You were taken to their land and held captive. You didn't speak the language, didn't understand what was going on around you. You weren't necessarily treated poorly....but you were not given any special accommodation, either. You were given food and water, but a small confined space in which to live, and little to no contact with anything that would make you happy. You lived this way for years. No one bothered to teach you the language, or to help you understand what your job was supposed to be. They just kept providing food and water and left you to your own devices.
> 
> Then one day you were "traded" to a different government. This government also spoke a foreign language, also provided food and water, but this time the people made an effort to make you feel welcome. They provided more than just the bare necessities - they researched your background and found things that would be pleasing to you. They gave you things that were familiar to you as a child, but that you hadn't seen in years. They started to work with you, to teach you the language, to try and explain what your job was, and what they expected of you.
> 
> Although on some level I'm sure this would be a relief.....wouldn't you wonder what their underlying intent was? Wouldn't you wonder why they were spending all of this time and attention on teaching you their ways, when you had been ignored for so many years? Wouldn't you wonder why they brought in comforting items when you had lost use for them many years ago, because they had been absent from your life for so long?
> 
> That is what Maggie is going through right now. She knows you are different, she knows she is in a better situation. But she doesn't understand why, and she doesn't trust that it's going to last.
> 
> Give it time. She will come to you. She's already made progress - don't lose sight of how far you've come! :hug:


Wow Jo you have explained this so well.


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## kaydm

Thanks Jo. Great description. I really do love Maggie. It's just that this weather has thrown both me and Maggie.


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## Scooter's Family

I'm not surprised, I get really down when the weather is bad so it wouldn't surprise me if dogs do too. I'd say to just be patient as much as you can and I'd give pee pads a chance. She may be thrilled to have someplace to go that doesn't make her go out in the cold!


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## kudo2u

The weather can definitely impact your outlook!

Is there something else you can do? Take her for a walk in a park where someone else does the shoveling perhaps? I'm guessing (based on the cute photos) that she doesn't mind the cold or the snow, she just doesn't know what to do with herself right now.

Don't get too frustrated with the housetraining - just keep it cleaned up behind her. She's starting to understand what you want....she just doesn't understand that you mean her to potty outside NO MATTER WHAT. This winter will be difficult. Next winter will be much easier!


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## kaydm

Today was so much better as was yesterday. The temps were more bearable and Maggie went out with no problem both days. 

My niece said that on the farm, her 4 dogs were tossed out the door during the blizzard as they balked, too. I really felt sorry for Maggie as when the wind was strong, she shivered just at the doorway. After the winds died, she was fine. 

Today a friend told me that I shouldn't worry about not liking Maggie sometimes as people also feel that way about kids sometimes, too. She reminded me that it passes.


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## maryam187

Kay, I dislike my dogs on some days too! To the point where I ask myself what the heck I was thinking. I keep saying I will just tie them both to the next tree, knowing someone will find them cute enough to take them in. My trainer reminded me that they're both microchipped, so no chance of getting rid of them, LOL. I felt horrible for disliking Pablo sometimes until I realized, just like you, that even parents have such moments with their KIDS. Now I don't feel bad about disliking neither one of them, hehe. Sure enough, every time I think I can't take it anymore, they turn into perfect little angels and I wonder why I even considered not liking them for one second. *sigh*
I think we all get the dogs/kids we need not the ones we want.


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## kaydm

Maryam, getting the dog we need rather than the one we want creates many an "AFGO" -- loosely translated as another freaking growth opportunity.


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## davetgabby

Kay , I must say that I have never gotten mad at Molly. I realize that she is a dog and that they don't deliberately try to do "bad" things. You're feelings at times are normal with any relationship ,whether it be human or animal. Winter does suck ,if you (and me) are not into it. I shovel a fair sized area at the back yard so Molly can run a little and not have to eliminate in the same little spot all the time. Some dogs don't like to walk in a soiled area all the time. Is it possible to pay a neighborhood kid to shovel a bigger area? Think possitive , only four more months of winter. LOL


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## murphymoesmamma

Maryam and Kay, I too have had my moments of not liking Murphy very much like yesterday when I caught him sniffing at my new arm chair and finding that he had jumped up and peed on it and that is what he was sniffing! Dave I know you say that dogs don't do things out of spite but Murphy sure seems to. My daughter's Yorkie KoKo has been sitting in that chair with me and I think that is why he marked it. The good thing is that I love him even when I am so angry with him that I don't like him very much.


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## maryam187

Dave, it's people like you that apparently never get mad at their dogs that I found most discouraging when I first got Pablo. He was my very first dog and despite lots of reading&researching I found myself so overwhelmed at times. And coming to the forum and reading about everyone's puppies being oh so perfectly behaved and people never getting mad at their dogs didn't help me not to feel like a complete failure. 
I think you (Dave) have lots of knowledge, patience, and experience with dogs and us doggy newbies haven't reached that point yet. I for one am learning a little more everyday and try to remember that patience is a virtue and these (at times crazy) dogs of mine are in my life for a reason.

Kay, I believe it is normal to become frustrated with your dog's behavior but unfortunately it gets the dog frustrated too which turns into a downward spiral. Every time I get overwhelmingly frustrated, I can quickly see it in my dogs, it's like looking into a mirror. In the beginning it used to get me even more frustrated, but now I try to see their built-up frustration as a reflection of my behavior. I now consider it a guidance to help me realize that I need to learn to quickly snap out of my frustration in order for them to knock theirs off. And it works...well most of the time, LOL.


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## Jill in Mich

There are lots of days when I'm ready to get rid of one or both of my dogs. I love them dearly and know my life's better for them being with me but......there are days when Tess won't eat, or Cody has peed on something else, or our walks are a battle I'm losing when I fantisize what it would be like to have no one else to take care of but ME! Short term - very appealing! Long term - very lonely.


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## murphymoesmamma

Jill in Mich said:


> There are lots of days when I'm ready to get rid of one or both of my dogs. I love them dearly and know my life's better for them being with me but......there are days when Tess won't eat, or Cody has peed on something else, or our walks are a battle I'm losing when I fantisize what it would be like to have no one else to take care of but ME! Short term - very appealing! Long term - very lonely.


Well said Jill! I agree totally.


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## marjrc

I think most of us get quite frustrated with our dogs and wish they were "better" for whatever reason. I know I do! I HATE that Ricky marks, in our own house but esp. in others'. It's a huge disappointment.

Kay, when it's freezing and windy out there, many dogs don't want to set foot out there, preferring to eliminate in the house or hold it in. If only they could TALK and understand exactly what we are feeling and want. Wouldn't that make things so much easier? lol 

Jo, I really, really love what you wrote. As much as the experts tell you to forget about the dog's past and focus on the present, there is baggage that makes the dog who she or he is. We can't forget that, esp. when we're talking about dogs that were in abusive conditions for years at a time. 

I suppose we need to keep saying "One day at a time" and "baby steps" , but sometimes that's not very encouraging! I understand you, Kay. Hang in there!


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## kudo2u

marjrc said:


> I think most of us get quite frustrated with our dogs and wish they were "better" for whatever reason. I know I do! I HATE that Ricky marks, in our own house but esp. in others'. It's a huge disappointment.
> 
> Kay, when it's freezing and windy out there, many dogs don't want to set foot out there, preferring to eliminate in the house or hold it in. If only they could TALK and understand exactly what we are feeling and want. Wouldn't that make things so much easier? lol
> 
> Jo, I really, really love what you wrote. As much as the experts tell you to forget about the dog's past and focus on the present, there is baggage that makes the dog who she or he is. We can't forget that, esp. when we're talking about dogs that were in abusive conditions for years at a time.
> 
> I suppose we need to keep saying "One day at a time" and "baby steps" , but sometimes that's not very encouraging! I understand you, Kay. Hang in there!


I agree - I get frustrated with my dogs sometimes, too. Thankfully I have 4 of them, so when I'm frustrated with 1, the other 3 are silly enough to help me get over it quickly! :fish:

I think (my interpretation) of the experts telling you to forget the past, is because many people feel pity for a dog who has had a rough past. If you feel pity for them and try to "make up" for what has happened, you'll only be hurting them more in the long run. I ABSOLUTELY think you need to keep in mind what the dog has been through to this point in their life, because it can drastically impact how you work with that dog and how you interact with it. For examply, if I tried to correct Lily (one of my terriers) the same way I correct Tango, Lily would think it to be a game and it would only egg her on. But if I tried to correct Tango in the same way I correct Lily, Tango would run away in sheer terror and wouldn't come out from under the bed for DAYS. However, I do still have to work with them both, I walk them both, I enforce "house rules" and don't allow unacceptable behavior.

I think that's what the experts are trying to say - you can't allow unacceptable behavior to make up for past transgressions, you still have to be in charge, you still have to teach them right from wrong......but sometimes you have to do this in a gentle, loving manner as opposed to an "alpha/in charge" manner.

I hope that made sense....


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## RikiDaisyDixie

*HavaNEES I'm begging you please...*

Okay so I have a foster dog who stays in a crate and goes potty outside immediately, eats her food right away, and is as sweet as she can be. Then I have my dear Daisy who has to search for the perfect pee spot that no one has ever used outside, or she will go all the way down the stairs and pee right in front of the doggy door on the inside.

How is it that a dog in pain can be good. And a healthy dog can be silly?

Perhaps our guest is more poodle than anything. Ah but they are all keepers aren't they!

My guess is our foster dog was a runaway. She was a matted mess with infected eyes and very skinny before she had her broken pelvis. She is very sweet to people, so perhaps she did have a nice home at one time and got out or ran away...and then got hit by a car. We don't know the story of who brought her to the shelter. She is three though and not fixed, but the vet doesn't think she ever had puppies. Who knows her story. Maybe it is because she has to spend such a long time in the crate that she is so loving. We will never know.

It takes patience to love a dog well...and you are doing it. Sometimes I think we have to do sensory repatterning of the brain as well...especially if she wasn't socialized at all. Resilience is a good thing...and they have it in their hearts...just takes a while to truly trust.


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## kaydm

Jill, Marj, Linda, Dave, Jo, Maryam, and Holly, thank you, thank you for your remarks. Such a lot of experience and wisdom to draw on. I so appreciate you all.

This morning it was still 34 degrees with light mist. Maggie bounded out the door each time. The temp plunged and it snowed but no wind to speak of so Maggie still willing went out. Just now it's colder and a little windy but she still went out to do her biz. She was quick but she did it willingly. I keep clapping my hands and telling what a good girl she is. Hope this continues as it turns much colder with nearly 20 below wind chill factor tomorrow.


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## Lunastar

Wow 20 below, I sure would not want to be out in that. I hope she continues to go out nicely. Could be it was just the shock of the cold and now she is figures this is the way of it.


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## kaydm

The rain these last two days has melted down the 16 plus inches of snow we got last week. Maggie got out in the snow today away from the shoveled area in the grass where she was feeling very confined when outdoors. The only time she did not want to be outdoors was the day there was 50 mph wind gusts. The snow hurt my face and hers, too. She doesn't mind the rain today as she is busily following scent trails in the snow.


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## davetgabby

What a hunter she is Kay. Yeah wind is spooky to a lot of dogs. I just wanted to wish you a very merry Christmas. I'm off to church .


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## Lunastar

Oh Kay she is so beautiful out in the snow. Yep she is hot on a good trail. LOL Merry Christmas!


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## TheVintageVamp

Merry Christmas Kay & Molly! I loved seeing the pictures of her in the snow! So sweet & cute.


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## kaydm

Some happy news this first part of the new year. Now that the outside temperature is well below zero, when Maggie wants to go out I need to really bundle up. Maggie stands and watches me get on my outerwear with her tail up! Yay. 

I talk to her telling her the purpose of the hat, scarf, gloves and parka while getting ready to go out. Then I tell her 'let's go' and she does a little play bow and jumps forward to run out. She did it 3 times on the porch this morning. It makes me happy as this is truly a big change in her behavior.

Now for the just the same behavior: when we're back inside, she still is carefully keeping a distance from me even when she comes into the room I'm in. She still won't take food from my hand. But the playful behavior when getting ready to go out is so fun to see. It makes my happy.


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## davetgabby

Happy New Year Kay , she sure likes the outdoors. This is great. Use this to your advantage. Whenever Maggie does something important ,say YES and take her out for a walk. You will find that she might just start offering it . As far as the hand feeding is concerned. This is a very good way to train dogs . I can't remember who I gave the article on hand targeting but read this one and maybe give it a try. This coming to you to receive her rewards would be a huge plus if you could get her doing it. Here is an article. Use a clicker it's the best marker. http://fearfuldogs.com/targeting.html


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

kaydm said:


> Some happy news this first part of the new year. Now that the outside temperature is well below zero, when Maggie wants to go out I need to really bundle up. Maggie stands and watches me get on my outerwear with her tail up! Yay.
> 
> I talk to her telling her the purpose of the hat, scarf, gloves and parka while getting ready to go out. Then I tell her 'let's go' and she does a little play bow and jumps forward to run out. She did it 3 times on the porch this morning. It makes me happy as this is truly a big change in her behavior.
> 
> Now for the just the same behavior: when we're back inside, she still is carefully keeping a distance from me even when she comes into the room I'm in. She still won't take food from my hand. But the playful behavior when getting ready to go out is so fun to see. It makes my happy.


Happy New Year, you are coming along with her and I know you are thrilled with her progress. It will be a happy day when she takes things from your hand won't it! It will happen you are being very patient and trying the training suggested. I am glad she is responding. Flynn


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## TheVintageVamp

Awww, baby steps, Kay...it's still baby steps. How thrilling that she is doing a little happy dance for you when she knows you are making the effort to bundle up and take her out, though. This makes me smile.


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## Lunastar

kaydm said:


> Some happy news this first part of the new year. Now that the outside temperature is well below zero, when Maggie wants to go out I need to really bundle up. Maggie stands and watches me get on my outerwear with her tail up! Yay.
> 
> I talk to her telling her the purpose of the hat, scarf, gloves and parka while getting ready to go out. Then I tell her 'let's go' and she does a little play bow and jumps forward to run out. She did it 3 times on the porch this morning. It makes me happy as this is truly a big change in her behavior.
> 
> Now for the just the same behavior: when we're back inside, she still is carefully keeping a distance from me even when she comes into the room I'm in. She still won't take food from my hand. But the playful behavior when getting ready to go out is so fun to see. It makes my happy.


OH Kay that is wonderful news! She will eventually take food from you. You are on Maggie time it will happen. I bet the first time she jumps up to sit next to you, you hold your breath. I know I did with my Romeo. He usually doesn't stay long but he has on two occassions sat on my lap for 30 minutes. I almost cried, well I did when he got off, I was afraid to scare him, it was just a huge thing for him. Hang in there it will happen.


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## kaydm

Luna your story abut Romeo made me cry for joy for you. Maggie doesn't get on any furniture. Guess she never has been around any until living with me. If I were her I'd get up on the couch or easy chairs, warm and comfy. lol


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## Lunastar

Thank you Kay, it is such a big step for him. He has been with us for almost three years now so it does take time. He was young when I got him but feral. He was the protector of the litter so he grows slowly. I also think it takes longer to build a cats trust. 

You mentioned that you are talking to Maggie at the door as you get ready. I am thinking she likes that. Maybe when she comes into the room you could read her your emails or explaing what you are cooking or watching or reading or whatever. See if that speeds things up a bit. I'm guessing you are also making eye contact with her when you get ready to go outside? If so that is a really positive sign too. You and Maggie have really started off the new year with a big bang!


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## kaydm

Yes, I forgot to say that all the while I am talking to Maggie as I'm putting on my outerwear, I am looking at her and she is looking directly at me. No eye shifting away from a direct gaze. Big deal, I think.

Whenever she comes into the room I am in, I say hello and after she settles herself, I just talk to her about whatever I' m doing or have done or about to do. Good thing I live alone, huh?


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## davetgabby

yes Kay eye contact is very important. It's a sign of trust and interest. Keep talking.!


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## Lunastar

LOL Kay Hubby and I both do the same thing with the girls and I do it with the cats too. Not so crazy. They enjoy the sound of our voices. Heck they even like it when I sing and trust me no one else does. hahaha

The eye contact is huge Kay.


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## marjrc

I can just picture Maggie, wagging her tail and getting excited about going outside with you. What a great thing for you both!


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## kaydm

Well, Marj, Maggie does not wag her tail for me but she does do a little dance when it's time to go out. I've seen her wonderful tailwag but it has only been for other small dogs. She does now turn around and look at me once she is outside and then dances up the the trail pounded out in the snow in the yard.


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## maryam187

Kay, it's been a while and I keep checking in just to see if you have posted any updates on Maggie's progress. I send good vibes your way almost on a daily basis.


----------



## davetgabby

Yeah Kay, how's it going?


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Hope all is well, would love an update too. Miss hearing from you!


----------



## Lunastar

I hope Maggie is improving daily. I miss your updates, Kay.


----------



## littlebuddy

kay, i just started reading your posts and got to page 7 and couldn't go any further. this is the first time i have had tears in my eye while reading about someones pup. it makes me so sad to hear about dogs that have issues that they need to over come.

your pup, well she's so beautiful and so lucky to have someone like you to look after her. whatever you are doing i know doesn't go unnoticed, she knows you love her and will continue to make improvements each day. i'm so glad she has you in her life.


----------



## marltonmommy

Kay, I have also been thinking about you and Maggie. Hoping things are going well for you! Would love to hear from you!


----------



## ivyagogo

I wonder how I missed this whole thread? Kay - you've done an amazing job with Maggie. She looks like a completely different dog from her avatar picture and she looks really happy. Kudos!


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

ANybody know what has happened to Kay, I am a little worried not hearing from her. Hope everything is okay!:wave:


----------



## davetgabby

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> ANybody know what has happened to Kay, I am a little worried not hearing from her. Hope everything is okay!:wave:


I will email her , I have her private addrsss.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

davetgabby said:


> I will email her , I have her private addrsss.


Thanks, I was thinking she lives alone, so I was concerned. Glad you can check on her! Thanks


----------



## kaydm

Oh my goodness. I had no idea it has been awhile since I've last posted.

I am well and another year older as of Feb. 1. Still grateful I wasn't born on Groundhog Day. lol

I just let Miss Maggie back in the house. I had been messing around in the kitchen and Maggie came to the door of the kitchen and looked at me. She has been doing this the last few days. Coming to find me and look at me because she wants to go out. This dog amazes me. Just when I think she isn't changing, she changes some behavior.

Last week she started just sitting down and looking at me while I put my outdoor coat and hat and scarf on. So I started saying to her 'good sit, Maggie'. Don't know where this might lead but I thought it worth repeating.

Another newish thing in January I started giving her a treat every day consisting of a spoon of plain yogurt mixed with a spoon of plain pumpkin. She loves it.

I do read the forum often, but was surprised to find Dave's email tonight. Thanks for thinking of Maggie and me. We're still here and hope all of you are well.


----------



## davetgabby

great to hear all is well Kay. She is comunicating better all the time. Slow but sure. Make her earn the treats though. She will then offer the behavior more often. You never cease to amaze us. Keep posting once in awhile ,we need good news like yours.


----------



## Sheri

Kay, wonderful to hear from you! Glad Dave had your e-mail to give you a poke with! Hope to hear more.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Good to hear from you!! Don't stay away so long, we miss hearing about Maggie! And by the way Happy Birthday Kay!:whoo:


----------



## kaydm

Thanks for the birthday wishes. It was a really big one ending in a 5. 

I forgot to say that another thing Maggie starting doing is instead of dancing around waiting for me to get my outwear on, she just stands a little looking at me and then sits down. I think she saves her energy for when I open the door to the 3 season porch. Then she prances and dances right by my side now as we cross the porch to open the door to the backyard. I egg her on with a high voice saying 'let's go, Maggie, let's go.' I think it's fun.


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## davetgabby

:laugh:Happy 45th. We need pics. Now I'm starting to sound like the women.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

We do need photos, and it sounds like Maggie is training you quite well! Glad you had a great 45th!


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## maryam187

Glad to read things are getting better monthly. I always say, every time I'm ready to just tie my two to the next tree (JK), I wake up the next day to perfectly well-behaved angels. Little monsters know how to survive!


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## Lunastar

Happy Birthday, Kay. Maggie sure is making progress. YOu are such an angel.


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## kaydm

ooh luv you guys


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## TheVintageVamp

So happy to hear you and Maggie are doing so well! It brought a smile to my face on this dreary winter morning.


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## Amy R.

Your Maggie is a little beauty & I'm glad you're enjoying her!


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## kaydm

Dave, I just need to set the record straight. 45 NOT. Kay


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Kay, don't ask, don't tell!!! :-}


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## marjrc

I'm so glad this thread was bumped and you came back to update us, Kay. I love hearing about the baby steps you make with Maggie. It's a challenge, but it's also inspiring to me. Hope you had a great birthday!!


----------



## kaydm

Today the temp is now 30 degrees with a thick snowpack on the ground. The sun feels very warm. Which is probably why Maggie has asked to go outside every 25 minutes. I indulged her with good humor until around 1pm when once again she interrupted my reading by a snort and longing look at the door.

A snort, mind you. What's that about? That's new. So, I just said 'what'. She danced a little and snorted again. Then she added a growly sound. So, wondering what she would do next, I again said 'what'. This time she gave one bark. Boy, was it a healthy bark. Wondering if she would do it again, I said, 'what'. She gave one bark again.

I think she is getting comfortable enough with me to let me know she wants what she wants and she wants it now. It makes me laugh. She tickles me with her changes.


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## davetgabby

Hi Kay, yeah she's trying to find out what works. It may seen cute, but I would ignore these demands. If you acknowledge her snorts or barks ,she will be doing them consistantly. LOL You should be determining when she needs to go out. Yep ,spring is in the air although we just got two good dumpings of snow. As much in the last week as what we've had all winter.


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## gelbergirl

kaydm - we will need that "snort" on video


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## marjrc

gelbergirl said:


> kaydm - we will need that "snort" on video


We're sooooo bad! :biggrin1:

Kay, that sounds great! I can't help but look at Ricky when he grunts. It gets my attention and I automatically look at him. It's when it gets repetitive that I try to ignore it for a few seconds, then get up and do what he 'asked for' as if it really was my idea! :suspicious: ound: Like, who am I fooling, right?! LOL


----------



## kaydm

Dave, what is so amazing is that the last time Maggie barked was in October when a friend pulled in the drive and walked up to the fence and said hi to Maggie. 

I was startled when Maggie made a bark at me to get what she wanted.


----------



## kaydm

No way to do a video -- sorry


----------



## gelbergirl

we're just buggin' you, glad to know Maggie is healthy and making noises to "guide" you ! :biggrin1:


----------



## davetgabby

kaydm said:


> Dave, what is so amazing is that the last time Maggie barked was in October when a friend pulled in the drive and walked up to the fence and said hi to Maggie.
> 
> I was startled when Maggie made a bark at me to get what she wanted.


Kay, consider yourself lucky. But if you want more , I'm sure she will oblige.


----------



## HavaneseSoon

Does anyone's Hav make a sound (like it comes from the nose)... it is like a sigh sound, but lower. Dexter does this whenever he looked at something or checked something out and he thinks it is ok now.

Also.....I have found that Dexter wants to go outside more when dh is not home, he goes straight for the driveway or to the end of the driveway and just looks.....I am talking almost every 20 minutes or so.....at least 6 times or so....When I know Dexter has been outside to do his business, I try to divert his attention to something else, then he forgets about wanting to go outside. Anyone else's Hav do this?


----------



## Lunastar

Oh Kay it is wonderful that Maggie is feeling secure enough to test the waters to see what works. 

I know when Zoey grunts in means one thing, she needs out NOW! She makes other noises for other things. Bella communicates through growly noises mostly, she stares to go outside. If you ask her 'what' she will run to the door, if you say outside she will jump up and lick my nose as though to reward me for being so smart. hahaha Gabe my little foster guy has many noises and we are just figuring them out. He is quite the little talker, mostly to my girls but it cracks me up.


----------



## davetgabby

Hello Kay , how are things going with the Magster?


----------



## littlebuddy

kay,i just have to tell you, every time i see the pic. of your hav, it just warms my heart. i hope all is going well.


----------



## kaydm

Hi Dave, well Maggie and I are emerging from our winter hibernation. Our big outing today was a trip to the groomer. We're trying something new for getting hair out of her eyes. I also had her really trim off a lot of beard as the groomer got tentative when I asked for that in late February. Beard is great but head needs more work. Hope all is well at your house.


----------



## Sheri

Good to hear from you, Kay. I hope you and Maggie are comfortable with each other, now, and things continue to get better for you.


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## davetgabby

hope you don't change her too much. She's pretty the way you had her. How's her behaviour been.?


----------



## Scooter's Family

So let's see a photo of Maggie.


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## davetgabby

Kay, these girls and their pictures. Well ...... lets see some pics.


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## kaydm

http://havaneseforum.com/picture.php?albumid=204&pictureid=1681

First pic is after being in the wind.

http://havaneseforum.com/picture.php?albumid=204&pictureid=1679


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## davetgabby

She has such a mystical look. I love her. A little mischievous look too. Thanks, for those and keep us posted with anything exciting. You're a good mom, and it's paying off.


----------



## kaydm

Mystical, I like that.

Maggie gained weight this winter as did I. She was 9 lbs when I got her. After spaying, and hibernating this winter, she was 13 lbs today. I've lost 5 of my winter lbs and now Maggie and I need to get serious about walking. lol


----------



## davetgabby

I hear you. It's easy to do.


----------



## luv3havs

Kay,
I just got a foster rescue from a puppy mill. She's 2.5 and was a breeder. Tinsel is pathetically shy and shutdown. I intend to re-read your whole thread on Maggie with a new eye. I read it before, but now I'll be learning from it.
I don't know how you did it! I know it must have been hard doing all you did for her and not getting much back in the way of affection etc. in the first few months. 
Since I have my lovable affectionate Havs, it doesn't bother me to get nothing back from Tinsel. But Maggie was your only dog. I give you tons of credit for all you did for Maggie!
And it is encouraging to me to see how far she's come. I only hope I can do the same for Tinsel who we are calling Annie.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Yes Kay, we are all happy to see Maggie and you back!! What do you see as the main differences now in Maggie and you of course? 
Hope to see more photos of her, she is so sweet.


----------



## marjrc

I love Maggies' new look! It's still very much Hav-like.  So many of us, and our dogs, gain a bit of weight over the cold, winter months, but now's the time to get out there and walk them off. I should know!! 

Nan, you will no doubt find many useful tips rereading Kay's thread. I love that we can all learn from each other in such a great venue!


----------



## davetgabby

luv2havs said:


> Kay,
> I just got a foster rescue from a puppy mill. She's 2.5 and was a breeder. Tinsel is pathetically shy and shutdown. I intend to re-read your whole thread on Maggie with a new eye. I read it before, but now I'll be learning from it.
> I don't know how you did it! I know it must have been hard doing all you did for her and not getting much back in the way of affection etc. in the first few months.
> Since I have my lovable affectionate Havs, it doesn't bother me to get nothing back from Tinsel. But Maggie was your only dog. I give you tons of credit for all you did for Maggie!
> And it is encouraging to me to see how far she's come. I only hope I can do the same for Tinsel who we are calling Annie.


Good for you. I think we need a smilie with a man tipping his hat because I tip my hat off to you. Thought I would give you a good article since you like reading. LOL. http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/confidence-101


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## kaydm

Nan, I do not regret having Maggie make her home with me. She will never be a lap dog or follow me around the house. However, when I put her in my lap she no longer shakes nor does she look wild-eyed at all this strangeness. I have caught her playing by herself when she thought I wasn't looking. Today, she decided to tug the throw off the ottoman and halfway suceeded. 

I still cringe when she gets spooked and skitters away as fast as she can. I have learned to wait til she goes to another room before following behind as being so close behind her spooks her.

I still feel badly when she gets picky over her food. I have learned she doesn't like me to watch her eat. If she walks away from her food, I wait awhile and take to the kitchen and bang a fork against the bowl, then bring it back. Amazing how interested she gets in that "new" food. lol

I love that now I can talk to her looking directly at her and she doesn't run away.

Today it was fun being in the yard, watching her check out the new daffodils.

Best to you, Nan.


----------



## kaydm

Flynn,

Before:

http://havaneseforum.com/picture.php?albumid=204&pictureid=1478

After:

http://havaneseforum.com/picture.php?albumid=204&pictureid=1679


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

kaydm said:


> Nan, I do not regret having Maggie make her home with me. She will never be a lap dog or follow me around the house. However, when I put her in my lap she no longer shakes nor does she look wild-eyed at all this strangeness. I have caught her playing by herself when she thought I wasn't looking. Today, she decided to tug the throw off the ottoman and halfway suceeded.
> 
> I still cringe when she gets spooked and skitters away as fast as she can. I have learned to wait til she goes to another room before following behind as being so close behind her spooks her.
> 
> I still feel badly when she gets picky over her food. I have learned she doesn't like me to watch her eat. If she walks away from her food, I wait awhile and take to the kitchen and bang a fork against the bowl, then bring it back. Amazing how interested she gets in that "new" food. lol
> 
> I love that now I can talk to her looking directly at her and she doesn't run away.
> 
> Today it was fun being in the yard, watching her check out the new daffodils.
> 
> Best to you, Nan.


You are so good for Maggie. I so much admire your attitude with her, you truly live by the saying "If you love something set it free"!

I see you letting her take her baby steps and you must be just the right person for her. I am so happy things are moving along. When I don't see you posting, I tend to worry, because I do follow all you share about Maggie. I will be so happy when the day comes that she follows you around, and I think it will


----------



## kaydm

Flynn, in re-reading your earlier post, I think you were asking about differences other than physical. I was just focused on her physical appearance change. 

Ok, after that senior moment, I would answer that I see Maggie working to figure out what I want and trying to it. She really seems to want to do the right thing. I spend more time talking to her so she doesn't just stay on her napping rug pretending to sleep. It engages her and gets her to work her mind I think. Sometimes I am just thinking out loud, working out how to solve some problem that has nothing to do with her, but she's looking me in the eye and watching my physical movements so that she can plot her own movements.

How has Maggie changed me? I can say I now know I am kind. I am patient. I am forgiving. Would never really of ascribed those qualities to me before because I never really thought about it. Feels good. 

I just love her as she is. Boy when I think of all the men I've tried to make over thru the years, I think what a waste of time. lol


----------



## davetgabby

love ya, Kay , yeah us men are a lost cause. Dogs are easier to train. And dogs accept us just the way we are, unconditionally. If you want Maggie to follow you around a little more ,try dropping some treats behind you as you walk away. Do it every second day , then every third. Then keep her guessing. She will start to follow you a liitle more.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Well, this is obviously a match made in Heaven. I can see you bring out the best in each other. I agree with Dave, it is amazing how quickly the dogs catch on to whatever we are doing. I see it in my walks with my new one, he quickly tires of the same old walk..I did not have that with my last dog, he just wanted to walk, this one is a little different! Time will tell, but I love Dave's suggestions! Maggie is a sweetheart. In dropping the food behind you, I could not help but think the way to a man's heart....:-}


----------



## kaydm

Well, Maggie is 13 lbs now, up from the very skinny 9 lbs 7 months ago. I don't want her to get any heavier. She doesn't like any kind of dog treats. I thought for sure she would like freeze dried liver, but no luck. When she was first here, she liked kibble as a treat. I suppose I could try taking a little out of her breakfast and using it as Dave suggested.


----------



## kaydm

Dave, what I was trying to say is that I failed many times to accept someone exactly as they were, not as I would have them be. I think Maggie has helped me do that differently and also be aware of past failings.


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## davetgabby

Kay ,definitely, subtract these treats from her daily allotment. You mean if you dropped a piece of chicken on the floor she wouldn't take it. ?


----------



## kaydm

I took scissors to Maggie's hair today. I really was not liking groomer's slanted straight line from jaw to behind ear.

Before:










After:


----------



## kaydm

Now I'll let the ear hair grow longer and I see that some more feathering can be done on the left side.

Groomer had cut left side shorter than right side. sigh


----------



## davetgabby

ohh Kay , Maggie looks gorgeous. So much better, you are good. Good for you.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

kaydm said:


> I took scissors to Maggie's hair today. I really was not liking groomer's slanted straight line from jaw to behind ear.
> 
> Before:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After:


Love this photo of her she looks like she is expecting something really good right now!!


----------



## Scooter's Family

You did better than the groomer! She looks adorable!

I'm trying to slim down one of the foster doggies we have and I'm giving them a few tablespoonfuls of frozen peas, carrots, and green beans mixed into their food and all of the dogs love it. You could see if she likes that.


----------



## galaxie

Oh I love Maggie! She is so cute


----------



## Lunastar

Oh Kay you did a beautiful job trimming(fixing) after the groomer. She is so beautiful. Her eyes are so soulful but I see a qlint there of happiness that is not in those first photos. She has come such a long way. Amazing how much they teach us.


----------



## PattyNJ

kaydm said:


> Hi, I have been reading this site for awhile waiting to find my Havanese. Well, I got her today.
> 
> She is 2 1/2 years old and came from a breeder who said she made it quite clear she did not want to be a mom. Apparently she teased the males and then at the critical moment, would roll onto her back and wave her feet in the air, thus making it all impossible for the male dog.
> 
> Anyway, she is here next to me. My problem is she will stay exactly where I put her. She won't walk around outside or inside. She won't eat or drink. She did pee once about 3 hours ago when I brought her home.
> 
> Supposedly she is not housebroken and she was supposed to be socialized by owner's children. I was told she is shy and takes awhile to warm up to strangers. Quite un - Hav - like, right? She does not seem to know her name.
> 
> She is adorable, white with black ears and some black spots on her back.
> 
> I think she was traumatized by the 2 1/2 hour car ride here. She vomited in the car in her crate on the way.
> 
> Do I just keep talking to her and keep watching her to see if she needs to go outside? Please talk to me.


Hi Kaydm: I know I'm writing late into your original posting, but I thought perhaps I could tell you about Buttons. I got Buttons when she was 3 1/2 years old and I've had her now for almost 2 years and she's really a completely different dog than she was the first day she came here. Buttons was very sad when she first came to our home. She originally came from a family that loved her, but life circumstances got in the way, and that family had to give her away.

When her original "mom" brought her to my house and left, Buttons was sad. It was crushing to her original mom (she left in tears), crushing to Buttons, and sad to me to watch two friends say good-bye (one understood what was going on, the little furry one had no idea her entire life was about to change). As the days went on she seemed realize her original "mom" wasn't coming back (nor her doggie friends - she came from a house with other dogs and a cat) and she seemed to slip into a deep depression. She howled and cried for a week (it broke my heart). She didn't want to be petted, she didn't even want to look at us. She didn't seem to understand us as if we were speaking a different language or even like us for that matter. She'd lay in a far off corner in a little tight ball not wanting much to do with us or anything around her. She wouldn't play with us or her toys.

Slowly, very slowly, she started coming around. There was one day when all of a sudden she seemed to snap out of it. I actually thought I saw her smile. But it took a LONG time.

She is a completely, COMPLETELY, different dog now. She's happy - really happy and REALLY in love with us. She is my little best friend. She plays with us, she is constantly lying on my lap, she comes with us everywhere we can bring her (even to the hospital when my mom was dying). She completely understands what we are saying to her (so much so my husband and I have to talk in code now so she doesn't pick up on what we're saying).

When her original "mom" brought her to us she told us about how much of a happy little dog she was and about all her funny quirks and silliness. We didn't really see it until months and months went by. NOW is see that happy little dog. She's a real gem.

It took a lot of time and a lot of patience. I don't know if this helps you, but I hope so.

Patty

The first picture below (with her tongue sticking out) is Buttons just a few weeks ago as happy as can be riding in the car.

The picture below that was taken in the first few days we had her. That look is very typical of how she was during that time. She would NEVER look right at us and run away if we tried to kiss her on the head or pet her. It breaks my heart to remember and see how sad she was in those days.

Patty

View attachment 29266


----------



## susieg

Patty -- that story and photos made me cry.

Kay -- Maggie's new 'do looks adorable! You did a much better job than the groomer!


----------



## marjrc

Oh Patty, how truly sad. And yet, Buttons wasn't abused, neglected or in a miserable environment. It is incredible how some dogs can take so long to get over a separation. I know that most dogs live day by day and usually look for the best in situations, but there are those that need a lot more time, a gentle, loving hand and an environment where they feel safe. You are an angel for knowing how to be patient and for giving Buttons the space and time she truly needed to be happy again. The more recent picture of her is all Hav, all the time. Fantastic! 

Kay, I totally love what you did to Maggie's face/head! It looks like she is posing for you. She is adorable.


----------



## kaydm

Patty, thanks for sharing pics of Buttons. I could feel her depression in the picture of when she first came to you. Love the happy tongue face.


----------



## Lunastar

Wow Patty, you can really feel her depression and over whelming sadness. I am so glad that your patience and loving care helped her to become a healthy and happy life loving dog again.


----------



## Judy -- Toby & Jaime's mo

Hi Kay,
As a mom of a two year old puppy mill rescue who had lots of dog experience, had two other Havanese, got the benefit of her four month foster mom evaluation, lots of puppy mill rescue rehabilitation researching, and who had a reasonable idea of what I was getting into -- my hat goes off to you for what you have done with Maggie. You thought you were getting a rather "normal" Havanese and ened up with a full blown rehabilitation project, with no prior dog experience and you are pulling it off. You have had her 8-9 months and you have made great progress. Dori has been out of the mill two years in August and she continues to make strides. I have kept a journal of her journey and it really helps to show how much progress she has made. The challenge of the journey almost makes the love stronger.

You have been such a devoted mom, who knows how Maggie will be returning a year from now. While Dori is not much of a lap dog in the house, she always follows me around and she is a lap dog in the car.

It took Dori almost a year to start jumping on the couch (and not the one where I was with the other dogs). She does great with our many socialization activities. Dori is now 3.5 years and she sleeps between my husband and me and is RELAXED! 

I just wish we could read their minds. The look Dori gives when she is trying to do something she is fearful of -- her mind goes back and forth between what she knows to be true and what was imprinted in her mind from her past.

CONGRATULATIONS and give your self a big pat on the back for the job you are doing. If you would like to read Dori's journal -- just PM and I will email it to you. I warn you it is about 20 typewritten pages so it is long. 

Reading through this post continues to reinforce my hope/belief that things will continue to progress with Dori in the years to come.

Continued good luck with your rehab of Maggie,

Judy -- Mom to Dori and Jaime


----------



## kaydm

Thanks for your kind words, Judy. 

Maggie has been very interested in watching me prepare my garden and start planting.

But the most fun in the last couple weeks is Maggie 'talking' to me by barking. It is with play bows and a sense of excitement. She does this when I ask her more than once if she wants to go out. I say ' you do?' is an excited voice and she barks a reply along with body language that suggests excitement and playfulness.

A new wrinkle: she will now allow me to hold open the outside door and she will go thru it to the outdoors. This is a really big deal. 

I am excited about these new things.


----------



## Lunastar

OH Kay, you have done such a wonderful job with Maggie. So fabulous the progress she continues to make.


----------



## kaydm

After months of not hearing many barks from Maggie, I was quite startled by her big bark. Today, I was in the unfenced side yard talking with my neighbor while I was petting her Havanese.

All of a sudden there was this flurry of barking and Maggie was jumping around inside the fenced backyard and barking at me. I clearly heard her saying ' You belong in here with me and stop petting that dog even if I do not let you pet me'. Too funny.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

kaydm said:


> Thanks for your kind words, Judy.
> 
> Maggie has been very interested in watching me prepare my garden and start planting.
> 
> But the most fun in the last couple weeks is Maggie 'talking' to me by barking. It is with play bows and a sense of excitement. She does this when I ask her more than once if she wants to go out. I say ' you do?' is an excited voice and she barks a reply along with body language that suggests excitement and playfulness.
> 
> A new wrinkle: she will now allow me to hold open the outside door and she will go thru it to the outdoors. This is a really big deal.
> 
> I am excited about these new things.


That is a great trust Maggie is showing you, knowing you will not let the door hit her. You have done such good work with her Kay!!!


----------



## Judy -- Toby & Jaime's mo

Hi Kay,

Just thought I would post some pictures of Dori & company:

There is one with Dori in her retreat mode where she went to her crate as her "safe place" -- which she needs no more (took about a year).

Dori in her frog like pose -- she does that a lot -- think it is so cute

Dori on one couch -- Jaime and Toby (now deceased) on the other

Dori on my lap with Jaime -- rare occurence and I am always the one to pick her up -- at least 50% of the time she still gets off my lap pretty fast -- other times stays from 10 min to an hour or so.

I am spending way too much time on this Forum!!!!!


Judy -- Mom to Dori and Jaime


----------



## marjrc

Kay, that is good to hear! I can just picture Maggie getting happy and excited. Of course, we continue to work on NOT barking with Ricky, but in your case, I'd say it's a huge plus!! lol 

Judy, love the pictures and your words of encouragement to Kay. Thank you for sharing your own experiences.


----------



## davetgabby

Great news Kay, things are always moving forward , this is good. Mega woofs.


----------



## kaydm

Back in May I was excited to share that Maggie will go through a door that I hold open. Not only that but she quit slinking down close to the ground. Sometime this summer she started following me in through a door from the outside when I call her.

She's added to her excitement repertoire, too. When I say, 'do you want to go out?' she will do a couple play bows, twirl her whole body around and bark excitedly. It is so fun to see.

Maggie has lived with me for 1 year now. She has grown from 9 pounds (skinny I thought) to level off now at 12.8 pounds at the vet yesterday. She's healthy as well

I love when Maggie is around strangers. She moves close to me and looks to me for reassurance. What a change in year's time.

I had to call the vet this afternoon as I saw Maggie eating acorns. They are everywhere this year. Relieved to hear not toxic to dogs but the shells may be sharp and cause internal bad stuff. So will have to watch Maggie closely.

I'm happy to have Maggie with me and thought I'd let you know a whole year has now gone by having her with me. Kay


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## pjewel

Kay, that is such good news. what a wonderful story. It just takes time.


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## krandall

Kay, it's fantastic to hear how Maggie continues to unfold like a little flower. Her affection has to be all the more precious because you've had to work so hard for it! Good for both of you!


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## ScarlettBlue

I'm so glad to hear that Maggie is doing well.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

krandall said:


> Kay, it's fantastic to hear how Maggie continues to unfold like a little flower. Her affection has to be all the more precious because you've had to work so hard for it! Good for both of you!


I love the way you said that " unfolding, like a little flower"...so true, Kay you have done a wonderful job and I know you are so pleased with what you are seeing...


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## The Laughing Magpie

This is so wonderful to hear. It just takes some longer and it makes it all the more special for the gift of their trust.


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## Missy

Kay what great news and what a wonderful job you have done with pretty maggie! can we get new pictures?


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## Kathie

Kay, it's so good to get news of Maggie (especially good news) - I was just thinking of the two of you a couple of days ago. I know how gratifying it is to see the changes and all the more precious when it comes so slowly. Maggie reminds me so much of Abby and what we went through with her - she has made wonderful progress, too, but still more to go. It is so encouraging to look back and see what a difference time can make!


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## kaydm

Kathie you have been so encouraging with your talking about Abby. I know there is more I want for me and Maggie. She still will not take food from my hand. She will not eat if I am in the room with her.

On the other hand, she will now drink water in the 3 season porch when she is out there with me for period of time. Of course the porch is 25 feet long and she is at the far end drinking after checking to see if I'm still engrossed in my reading. lol


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## littlebuddy

i am so happy to hear you are both doing well. i love reading about Maggie and her baby steps to becoming that happy dog and of course i love reading your stories because it always reminds me about the good hearted people who are out there who love dogs.


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## Moe's Gram

Kay: So glad to hear that Maggie is continuing to make positive progress. Congrats to you for all of your dedication to her and now being able to see that love and dedication pay off. I hope things keep going in the right direction.


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## Gizmo'sMom

I am new to this thread, just wanted to say how great it is that you can give Maggie such a better life! She sounds like she is making a ton of progress!


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## davetgabby

AAAHHHHH Kay ,you are Maggie's heroin. You have taken D and C to a new meaning. LOL. Yeah with Maggie the slow approach was what she needed. Not sure, did I give you some info on hand feeding. ? Anyway keep up the great work. Yeah we need an updated picture.


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## Lunastar

Kay, YOu have done amazing work with Maggie. She is truly a flower who be in full bloom some day. Your patience and love has saved her. Thank you for the update.


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## ItsMare

*Wow*

I just spend most of my morning reading these 68 pages. I think you are all wonderful and what such a blessing it is that Maggie has you. God Bless


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Hi there! I always love to hear about Maggie, and you too of course, Kay!! Send photos


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## srebeccasmith

*Re: Havanese needing reassurance*

Hi i just got a Havanese a month ago at 15 weeks. She was extremely shy with us for the first 2 days and then after 2 days she was a whole different puppy. Now she is happy, hyper and so energetic...my 8 year old loves her so I think with time she will be fine. I was told it would takke my Hav up to a week to be completely settled and would cry for a few nights but it took only 2 days and she cried only one night. She adapted pretty fast..also in cars she gets sick and throws up so def the vomit is from the motion of the vehicle as Cocoa vomits almost every time being in a car.


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## Luciledodd

I hope you figure out the vomiting thing. I haven't got it down yet. I have to drug Rosie to travel with her. I think that rosie is anxious in the car; but it could be motion sickness. I haven't figured it out yet. Never had this problem with any other dog.


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## davetgabby

srebeccasmith said:


> Hi i just got a Havanese a month ago at 15 weeks. She was extremely shy with us for the first 2 days and then after 2 days she was a whole different puppy. Now she is happy, hyper and so energetic...my 8 year old loves her so I think with time she will be fine. I was told it would takke my Hav up to a week to be completely settled and would cry for a few nights but it took only 2 days and she cried only one night. She adapted pretty fast..also in cars she gets sick and throws up so def the vomit is from the motion of the vehicle as Cocoa vomits almost every time being in a car.


 Here's an article on car sickness.

When dogs are carsick, they feel nauseous which is unpleasant. In fact, in
the unpleasantness sweepstakes, nausea can rank above pain in "wow would
I like to avoid this." Just like we humans, nauseous dogs don't always throw
up, which means we might be missing it. Sometimes they salivate and are
restless and sometimes they just pant and look glassy. Interestingly, it's easy
to mistake this for a primary car-anxiety. Also, it doesn't take many such car
rides for anxiety to be added: "oh no, here comes that place where my tummy
feels bad...pleeeease can I not go in there." The anxiety is also aversive, which
could exacerbate the ill feeling, and so on.
Sometimes even if the carsickness is resolved, the secondary anxiety may remain
alive. If this is the case, your interventions-making positive associations
with approach and the considerable cumulative effect of so many car
rides to enjoyable dog sports-are on the right track and you will probably
continue to make gradual gains. Although it's intuitive to not feed in order to
avoid the product of vomiting, check with your veterinarian about whether
or not this will help reduce nausea, as opposed to a light, bland snack prior
to travel.
Your veterinarian will help sort this out and, if she thinks it's indicated, try a
course of anti-nausea medication to help break the cycle. In the can't-hurtmight-
help department, I've heard that static charges may be implicated in
cases of carsickness in both dogs and humans. Cars can drag lines from their
undercarriage to the road to dissipate charge.
If it's a primary car anxiety, it means he's not as fine as you think once he's in
the car. To firm this up, look very critically for signs of anxiety. Those signs
that can mimic nausea include trembling, a blown-pupil deer in the headlights
look and whining.
If he really, truly is fine once in the car, and not suffering from carsickness,
we need to consider a superstitious fear of some part of the jump-in process.
Dogs acquire these fears all the time. For example, if the first time a dog attends
a baseball game, fireworks go off, he could subsequently fear kids in
baseball uniforms. Likewise, if, twice in a row, a conformation handler steps
on the dog's foot after the rosettes are presented, the dog could get spooky
about ribbons. These are considered "superstitious" because there is no logical,
rational basis-kids in baseball uniforms don't make big booming noises
and rosettes don't hurt feet. The fear remains alive because of the nature of
avoidance learning. Subsequent to the chance association, the dog behaves
fearfully-balks at the end of the leash or growls at the kids, scrambles away
from the rosettes, rushes into the car-and, in his mind, avoids the fearful
stimulus. "See how well my behavior works?" He never finds out that the
scary thing wouldn't have happened anyway.
Try blocking his avoidance response. Mechanically prevent him from rushing
through "something" to get into his crate so he finds out something is
nothing. To facilitate this, separate the crate and car elements. Practice going
slowly into the car as well as slowly into the crate you use in the car. A halter
or plain buckle collar held taut could get you started (keep it taut to avoid his
rushing and getting an inadvertent jerk). Do pauses at the "sticky" point (die
place he needs to rush through) and provide him with treats and praise. The
more you hang out at the spot he thinks is dangerous, the more evidence you
are giving him that there is nothing scary there.


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## Luciledodd

I wish that I could nail down the reason that Rosie pukes in the car. she has ridden the two miles to work with me for a year. And now we can go the three miles to the Vets office. But five miles and she pukes. If I stop the car and get out even if we have only gone one mile, she pukes. She has started hiding in the mornings so that she doesn't have to go to work in the car. I take her anyway. At the end of the work day, when my computer says, "Goodby" She runs to another office and hides. She enjoys the office and all the employees. But she doesn't want to get in the car to go home. I tell her that we are going home to see Josie and she perks up her ears; but she still runs to someones office so as not to get in the car. The drug that the vet gave me for anxiety works for about 2.5 hours. then she pukes. The drug for motion sickness didn't work at all. I wish I knew what to do for her. She is so happy when we get to the office and she greets all the employees, so it is not fear of the office. It is the car--any vehicle. Help please if you know what to do.


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## davetgabby

Luciledodd said:


> I wish that I could nail down the reason that Rosie pukes in the car. she has ridden the two miles to work with me for a year. And now we can go the three miles to the Vets office. But five miles and she pukes. If I stop the car and get out even if we have only gone one mile, she pukes. She has started hiding in the mornings so that she doesn't have to go to work in the car. I take her anyway. At the end of the work day, when my computer says, "Goodby" She runs to another office and hides. She enjoys the office and all the employees. But she doesn't want to get in the car to go home. I tell her that we are going home to see Josie and she perks up her ears; but she still runs to someones office so as not to get in the car. The drug that the vet gave me for anxiety works for about 2.5 hours. then she pukes. The drug for motion sickness didn't work at all. I wish I knew what to do for her. She is so happy when we get to the office and she greets all the employees, so it is not fear of the office. It is the car--any vehicle. Help please if you know what to do.


 Hi Lucile , this sounds like secondary anxiety or a learned behavior. I think you have to go back to square one with desensitizing her. Here is another article on how to do this. Doing long trips will only keep this problem going. You have to slowly build up distance.

Car Sickness By Norma Jeanne Laurette

Although car sickness may appear to be a health issue, if it re-occurs it can become a
learned behavior problem. The dog begins to associate the car with feeling sick and will
proceed to vomit on each consecutive trip.
Treatment for Car Sickness
If the dog is afraid to get into the car follow this desensitization program.
Leave both the driver's side and passenger doors open. Place a trail of small healthy
treats from the door of the house, into the car and out the other door. The treats
should get bigger as you get closer to the car, largest and tastiest in the car and
smaller on the way out. Use a long life line for safety purposes when necessary and
let the dog set the pace. If you push him. you'll slow down your progress.
When this step is successful, close the passenger door and allow the dog to follow
the trail of treats in and out of the car with one door closed.
Next, stand beside the driver's door as the dog follows the trail in and out of the car.
Now you can place a special treat on the seat where the dog will sit, using
something that will take more time for the dog to eat. When he gets into his seat,
slip in beside him and close the door. As soon as the dog finishes his special treat,
open the door and allow him to get out.
Now you can begin to desensitize the dog to the moving vehicle.
Get in the car beside the dog, feed him a few small healthy treats and get out.
Get in the car beside the dog, turn on the engine, feed him a few treats, turn off the
engine and get out.
Next leave the engine on for five minutes, slowly feeding him treats and get out.
Get in the car beside the dog, turn on the engine, back down the driveway, drive
back up, feed the dog a few treats and get out.
• Next go to the end of the block and follow the same pattern.
Now, go around the block and follow the same pattern.
If the dog drools or vomits, you've moved too quickly. Pretend it did not happen,
take a break, go back to your last point of success and proceed more slowly. If you
get upset, you'll add to the negativity of the experience. If you comfort the dog,
you're rewarding his behavior.
At this point you'll want to make the destination of your first trip special tor the
dog, to create a positive association with the car. Take the dog to the park for a
game of 'fetch/ or to visit his favorite friend.
A dog that gets sick ever}' time he gets into a car is conditioned to get sick, and we
have to change this conditioning. After spending time in the car again and again, the
dog will no longer associate the car with feeling sick. It's crucial to increase time
and distance gradually, but the more repetitions you can fit in, the quicker you'll
solve the problem. Praise and reward the dog for each step of progress and ignore
any negative behavior.
In some cases "Gravol" can help but only use it at the advice of your veterinarian. In
other cases, putting newspaper on the dog's seat can help due to the charcoal in the
paper. In all cases, it's important to set the dog up to succeed by moving slowly,
keep the excitement level low and eliminate all negativity.


----------



## nancyf

kaydm said:


> Thanks so much for all your replies. Her name is Maggie. When I can figure out how to do pictures here, I will. I will put her by my bed tonite. I hope she will be hungry tomorrow. She sniffed at treats tonite, but did not eat one.
> 
> I knew I wanted a Havanese after meeting the one next door. I was smitten. I have looked for over 5 months for an adult female as that is what is next door. I know when my neighbor and her little girl return in a couple weeks from their summer lake home in Minnesota, that I will get some good advice. But tonite I may be as overwhelmed as Maggie.
> 
> Right now she just dropped off to sleep at me feet. Progress, yes?


When our Bella was a year, our breeder called and asked if we wanted an older dog--7 years--who had four litters but our breeder couldn't give her the attention she needed because of the other dogs in the house. Any way, we got Dani and we were surprised at the adjustment it took. Suddenly Dani became the center of attention with my husband and myself. She was held and talked to and played with--something she didn't get before. But the old habits of fear when she hears a loud noise or thunder still happen. She has just begun to enter a room without being asked and she holds back when we all come in from outside.

My humble suggestion is that you love your adorable pup and give her time to know you are there for her good. I think they need to know you won't give them any bad surprises that hurt or scare. It seems that those things become deeply ingrained within their spirits. Talking kindly and softly, holding her, being patient with her will draw her closer to you. Her expression reminds me of Dani--Dani has a gentle, quiet spirit that is so sweet but easily dented. But we hear over and over from people who meet her--"Now that's the kind of dog I'd like." We don't regret a moment of time with Dani--she has been good for Bella and Bella for her.


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## Lunastar

Great articles Dave. I am going to try some of this on my Bella. I am pretty sure hers is true motion sickness since she will get sick if she is in a stroller or even being carried for periods.


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## Scrappy

*This thread is amazing, and Kay you are amazing*

I stayed up until the wee hours last night reading this entire thread. Kay, your devotion to Maggie is so moving. Thanks so much for journaling your experience here and sharing your feelings, good and bad about your time so far with your girl. This story really would make a good book.

There is a wealth of information here. So many links and training tips and anecdotes. I know I will refer to it again and again.


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## Becky Chittenden

My first Havanese, SOX, got carsick and didn't outgrow it like most dogs do. I didn't want to give her any pills or other things if possible. First, I wouldn't feed her for a couple hours prior to going in the car. My dogs ALWAYS ride in a crate for safety. I put her in the crate in the car, with the back hatch (I have a van) and all the windows open. I did this every day for about 15 minutes. Then, I closed the back hatch. Next I ran the engine for a couple weeks. Next (always a couple weeks of each) I drove up and down the driveway, then out to the end of my road and back (about a 2 mile distance). I increased this gradually. At first, after leaving the driveway, she would drool but after a while it stopped and at age 6 she no longer is carsick. Interestingly, none of her puppies, so far, have had the carsick thing, Yea!!!!!


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## davetgabby

Happy Thanksgiving Kay, hows that magnificent Maggie doing.?


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## kaydm

Happy thanksgiving to you, too, Dave. I have spent a lot of time tonight reading the quit smoking thread. Congratulations to you and your wife for quitting. I am getting inspired to try to quit again.

Maggie is a little peeved now that morning temps are so cold. She runs right back in after first going out and is not at all interested in going out as usual after breakfast.

Until yesterday, afternoons have been warmer so she was very happy to go out, giving me an argument when I wanted her back in.

She has really asserted herself these past couple months. I'm happy she's comfortable enough with me now after 15 months to let me know she wants to do something. Although I could probably do without the low growl followed by the whine when she does come in. But she does come in whine and all.


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## davetgabby

Yeah Kay, you should quit as a new years resolution .. I feel better already. The only thing that makes Molly hurry up inside is if it's raining. She loves the snow and the cold. You'd never know her ancestors were out of Cuba. LOL. We need some updated pics of Maggie.


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## davetgabby

Hi Kay, just wanted to wish you a Merry Christmas. I hope you have some nice presents for Maggie. She deserves to be spoiled.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Have we heard from Kay? Would love to see some more photos of Maggie!! Merry Christmas Kay and Maggie


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## davetgabby

yeah she was on in nov . Thanksgiving


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Thanks Dave, I guess I missed it, I think of Maggie and Kay often..good to hear they are okay!


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## davetgabby

Hi Kay, here's the old post. Like I mentioned in my private email, we need an upate with pics of Maggie. Maggie is one dog that sticks in my mind from all the days on this forum. You've done wonders with her. Merry Christmas.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Dave, I was just thinking about Kay and Maggie...Merry Christmas...love an update..


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## davetgabby

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> Dave, I was just thinking about Kay and Maggie...Merry Christmas...love an update..


 Yeah Flynn , I emailed her at her private email address. and told her we want an update.


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## lanabanana

Thanks so much for reviving this old thread. I have now read through the whole thing and have shed more than one tear. God bless you Kay, for being Maggie's angel. For some reason, I can't see any of the photos posted in this thread, but I can feel people's excitement as they've seen the change in Maggie. Would love to read an update after all this time. I hope you are both doing well and Happy Holidays!!

Alanna


----------



## davetgabby

lanabanana said:


> Thanks so much for reviving this old thread. I have now read through the whole thing and have shed more than one tear. God bless you Kay, for being Maggie's angel. For some reason, I can't see any of the photos posted in this thread, but I can feel people's excitement as they've seen the change in Maggie. Would love to read an update after all this time. I hope you are both doing well and Happy Holidays!!
> 
> Alanna


Wow Alanna that was a long thread. Yeah for sure Kay has come a long way with Maggie. I still haven't had her reply to my private email (off site).


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## gertchie

I just came across this old thread and was wondering if Kay is still on the forum and how she and Miss Maggie are doing. I read the whole thing in one sitting and it made me laugh, cry and sympathize with everything she went through. For the newbies on here this is a great read with a ton of info! However, the pictures are gone....why would that be?


----------



## krandall

Some people took all their photos down when the forums split, because the ORIGINAL user's agreement said that Vertiscope would own all images and could do what they wanted with them. It was "boiler plate", and I don't think Vertiscope really even read it carefully themselves. They quickly changed it when many people complained, and now it's back to the way it was... the person who posts the photo still owns it. 

But... in the mean time, there were hard feelings, and some people took down their photos, and left for the other forum. Maybe Kay is one of them. I sure hope Maggie is continuing to come out of her shell with Kay's patient guidance!

You could try PM'ing her... if she didn't actually CLOSE her account, she should still see that come through into her e-mail, and maybe she'll come back and update us!


----------



## krandall

Some people took all their photos down when the forums split, because the ORIGINAL user's agreement said that Vertiscope would own all images and could do what they wanted with them. It was "boiler plate", and I don't think Vertiscope really even read it carefully themselves. They quickly changed it when many people complained, and now it's back to the way it was... the person who posts the photo still owns it. 

But... in the mean time, there were hard feelings, and some people took down their photos, and left for the other forum. Maybe Kay is one of them. I sure hope Maggie is continuing to come out of her shell with Kay's patient guidance!

You could try PM'ing her... if she didn't actually CLOSE her account, she should still see that come through into her e-mail, and maybe she'll come back and update us!


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Dave you have Kay's email still...I don't think we ever heard from her when you tried last Christmas???? I would love to know too...Kay how is it going??? It is frightening when we don't hear...


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## gertchie

Karen, that is too bad about the pics....glad I wasn't around for that drama! I did send her a PM but if she hasn't posted in a year, she probably won't answer. I let her know people want an update on her & Maggie. Flynn, I had the same idea! Hopefully he can find her. Even though I just "met" her today I can't help but worry that something bad happened. They had such a special story and I love how open and honest Kay was with everything that was going on with her. I just wish her the best


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## kaydm

Hello all. I got an email and thought I would answer. Maggie has been with me 3 years as of last month. She's so goofy. I am happy to be able to say that. 

Maggie has come a long way but will still be Maggie on her own terms, not mine. She trusts me to let her in and out when she stands up and stares at me. She hides when I have people in my home. She's most fun in the morning as she acts playful and has a little ritual she insists on performing on her way out the door, twirling once or twice making a few play bows. Later in the day she remembers I'm a human.

Maggie was not socialized to people before I got her at age 2 1/2 years old. She still is fearful of people. The groomer and vet techs there adore her even tho she has a look in her eyes that says she would rather be anywhere else. She has the same look when I brush her or do her Frontline. 

Maggie still will not eat from my hand. She does follow me into the house, however. I have a friend from NE Iowa who comes down here about 3 times a year to record for the Blind Commission. She tells me she sees changes in Maggie. For example, my friend can now just remain at the table while Maggie goes by on her way out the door. She used to have to go into the kitchen and be very quiet, hoping Maggie wouldn't notice her.

After a very bad winter 2 years ago, Maggie decided she will never walk on a leash again. Not even chicken breast, her fav, will tempt her to walk on leash. She decided and will not budge.

She became territorial with the fenced backyard. There was a cat who lived 2 blocks away who often visited me over the last 2 years and loved human attention. Maggie barked at the cat was very unhappy with her presence.

On the other hand, she is unconcerned by the huge rabbits who have figured her out. They saunter by her as she barely lifts her eyelids as they pass.

Maggie seems to enjoy our early mornings in the yard. She is no longer afraid of the hose as I drag it up the slope to water the tomato plants. She no longer runs away as I approach her to pass by her with the hose. She's smart enough to figure it out.

Last year, she began a new routine: barking when I return to the house. Just as I put the key in the lock, she starts barking. I think it's annoying since it does not sound like a happy oh I am so glad you're home bark. More like, where the hell did you go and how dare you not consult with me? I have taken to making a shhhh sound at her and when she quiets, I quickly tell her let's go out now. Seems to work for me anyway.

Maggie has become a favorite of the Hav owner next door. I know my neighbor feels sorry for me because she always encourages me to come over to pet her dog. But my neighber does talk to Maggie whenever she works in her yard and sees Maggie. I do think Maggie knows her now and doesn't seem as afraid of her.

What else can I tell you? I love her for own self just as she is.


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## gertchie

I am Soooo glad you are still here and so happy that Maggie is still with you and obviously happy! I just can't tell you enough how much I enjoyed your thread....your ability to tell your story is wonderful  Thanks for the update, its great to hear you are ok. Just one more little thing.....can you please post a picture of Maggie as all the others are gone and all I have seen of her is on your avatar? Reading this thread was like reading a book and I just have my imagination to go on! Welcome back :whoo:


----------



## kaydm

*Maggie pic*

Before last groom


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## kaydm

*Seeing her first pic*

when Maggie came to live with me next to her most recent pic sure shows changes. I thought she was underweight at 9 pounds three years ago. Now she is 14.5 pounds, maybe a little fat, but much healthier looking. Also, I have noticed some graying of her black hair.


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## lfung5

How did I miss this thread? kay I read all you posts and Maggie is so lucky to be with someone who is so kind in working with her and loving her. She is adorable and I hope she continues to trust you more and more with time. Too bad to hear about the leash walks though. I'm hoping she will eat out of your hand soon!!! More pictures please!


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Oh Kay, I can't tell you how many times you are thought of on this forum...You can see we have asked Dave several times to contact you and be sure you and Maggie are okay!!! We so enjoy hearing from you..I have to say how beautiful she looks now...and she is improving. Just keep working with her and expect the best..they can sure tell if we expect something of them..and they can tell when they don't have to worry...lol... Keep us posted, please...


----------



## gertchie

Thanks for the picture! I can see why you love her so much....her face is just beautiful and expressive! I think she looks great, so much better than too skinny & her haircut is super cute. Reading through the thread I fell in love with her a little more with each post, she was such a lucky girl to have found you and I can tell you feel the same about her


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## krandall

Kay, it is SO nice to hear an update on how maggie is doing. What *I* notice most as a difference between Maggie's first picture and the last is how much more confident and comfortable she looks now! Maggie will probably always be Maggie. She has a lot of "baggage" to get past from her past life. But you have given her the gifts of time and patience which have allowed her to really blossom!

Please come back to the forum and give us updates now and then. We miss you AND Maggie!


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## krandall

Kay, it is SO nice to hear an update on how maggie is doing. What *I* notice most as a difference between Maggie's first picture and the last is how much more confident and comfortable she looks now! Maggie will probably always be Maggie. She has a lot of "baggage" to get past from her past life. But you have given her the gifts of time and patience which have allowed her to really blossom!

Please come back to the forum and give us updates now and then. We miss you AND Maggie!


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## waybrook

So happy to see that you and Maggie are continuing to progress! I agree with Karen, the difference in Maggie's demeanor is evident in her newest picture. She looks so much more confident! Congratulations on how far she's come - it wouldn't have happened without your total love and support of her!


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## davetgabby

gertchie said:


> I just came across this old thread and was wondering if Kay is still on the forum and how she and Miss Maggie are doing. I read the whole thing in one sitting and it made me laugh, cry and sympathize with everything she went through. For the newbies on here this is a great read with a ton of info! However, the pictures are gone....why would that be?


\It was a good thread. I'll have to give her another email offsite.


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## davetgabby

welcome back Kay. Don't mind my previous post , . I read Gerchie's first post and din't look to see that there were two more pages LOL> Just finished a four hour drive from KIngston and not too with it. So nice to hear from you again. Maggie is definitely one of my favs here. And she definitely has come a long way. We want you to come on and post once in awhie. I just emailed you privately not realizing you posted here. Just let me know if it's your same email address. Don't leave us for so long or I will be after you. So glad you two are doing good. Hugs and woofs Dave and Molly.


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## HavaneseSoon

kaydm said:


> Before last groom


Love your update and photo, but you said this was a pre-groom picture....ummmm I think you owe us a post groom picture. 

She has expressive eyes that I love. I am so glad you came back! I can't believe the thread was started in 2009.


----------



## Kathie

Kay, it is so good to get an update on you and Maggie! I know the changes can be so small that it is sometimes hard to see when you're with her everyday. It was nice to have a friend who sees her only occasionally to notice the difference for you!

I don't know if you remember me telling you about our Abby. Her progress has been so slow, too. But, we got our puppy, McGee, nearly a year and a half ago and she has really blossomed since! She still hides under the dining table when I get up like she's afraid I'm going to try to comb her or something horrible like that! But, the other day she was standing next to me and I bent down to pick her up and she let me - that was such a thrill so things like that can just happen out of the blue and I am like you and just enjoy her the way she is. I'm sure that Maggie still has some surprises in store for you, too!


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## Kathie

Kay, it is so good to get an update on you and Maggie! I know the changes can be so small that it is sometimes hard to see when you're with her everyday. It was nice to have a friend who sees her only occasionally to notice the difference for you!

I don't know if you remember me telling you about our Abby. Her progress has been so slow, too. But, we got our puppy, McGee, nearly a year and a half ago and she has really blossomed since! She still hides under the dining table when I get up like she's afraid I'm going to try to comb her or something horrible like that! But, the other day she was standing next to me and I bent down to pick her up and she let me - that was such a thrill so things like that can just happen out of the blue and I am like you and just enjoy her the way she is. BTW, Abby is five now! I'm sure that Maggie still has some surprises in store for you, too!


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## davetgabby

Linda, nothing like an old popular thread to bring out the old cronies again . ound:


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## Kathie

Hmmm......are you calling me an old cronie, Dave?


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## davetgabby

only as far as your membership on the forum.


----------



## kaydm

*Feeling much gratitude this day*

Here's a little update on Maggie and me. I just got sprung from a stay in hospital. During this time, Maggie was boarded at her vet's. Day 8 the vet said she had stopped eating and was concerned Maggie was feeling abandoned.

I asked my friend to spring her as my friend had wanted to take her to her home. My friend took her home. Maggie was so traumatized she did not want to go in her crate at night. So my friend put her on her chest as she lay on the couch for several hours. Maggie did not move but just looked around.

Next day my friend brought her to the hospital. Apparently all these people are dog lovers. Maggie was placed on my bed and she licked my hand and then my chin. That had never happened before. I cried.

Maggie refused to eat her kibble the night before and that morning. So friend's boyfriend fed her roast white meat turkey. Well, at the hospital she was panting as she does not like car travel. But soon my food tray arrived and her little nose went to town.

Keep in mind that Maggie has never eaten from my hand. In fact, she will never eat if I or anyone else is in the same room. Nor will she drink water.

I cut up a plain, unseasoned chicken breast in small bites and placed them one at a time on a napkin by her face. She ate half the small breast. Then we dumped the grapes and put water in the little dish. She drank it all just a foot from me.

My friend left us alone for a half hour. Maggie stopped panting and lay down and I watched her breathing return to normal.

The next day my friend brought her back to visit. Again she was panting from the car ride. After petting her a little we got a styrofoam cup filled with water. I held it and Maggie drank it all. I cried some more.

This neurotic little dog is bonded to me and I had questioned that all along.

I got sprung from hospital next day late. My friends brought Maggie home to me, putting her down on the kitchen floor. I said, let's go out, Maggie. She bounded for the door and then the most amazing thing. She did her happy dance and twirls that she only does in the morning and she WAGGED HER TAIL! Since having her in August 2009 she has never wagged her tail for me, only for other dogs. Wow, just wow.

Well, you all wanted updates. Couldn't be more pleased to oblige.

Hope all had a fine day.


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## lfung5

Wow! All your hard work and dedication is paying off! I am so happy you shared this with us. 
I hope you are ok....I think my guys can sense when something is wrong. I bet Maggie sensed you were hurt and she bonded even more with you!
I do hope she continues to make progress.
I would love to see some updated pictures of her
Happy Thanksgiving!


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## NvonS

My Lily was traumatized by her rehoming at 8 months. The poor little thing threw up for 3 days. I would put her food down and she would eat a little and then throw up. I took her to the vet and they said to give her pepcid. It took about two weeks and she finally got on a regular eating schedule. She would only go to my daughters but eventually warmed up to me. I kept a thin string on her around the house so I could catch her around the house. It was easier for both of us. Be patient it will take time.


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## Sheri

What a wonderful, precious gift!!! You've worked so hard and carefully with her; It's wonderful to read how she responded to you!! Thanks for letting us know, too.


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## Miss Paige

So glad to see the update from you about Maggie. It's nice to go back and see the process it sometimes takes for a dog to come into "their confident life". It's not always easy-it takes time and so much love but it's always so heart warming when it happens. Hugs to you & Maggie and keep the updates coming.


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## krandall

Wow, Kay! Now you've got us ALL crying!!! Hope YOU are on the mend too!


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## Suzi

As I was reading I felt so bad for both of you. I'm glad the vet called some may not have. You have a very good friend and I'm happy she was able to come to the hospital. I cant remember Maggies story but I will try to get filled in.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

kaydm said:


> Here's a little update on Maggie and me. I just got sprung from a stay in hospital. During this time, Maggie was boarded at her vet's. Day 8 the vet said she had stopped eating and was concerned Maggie was feeling abandoned.
> 
> I asked my friend to spring her as my friend had wanted to take her to her home. My friend took her home. Maggie was so traumatized she did not want to go in her crate at night. So my friend put her on her chest as she lay on the couch for several hours. Maggie did not move but just looked around.
> 
> Next day my friend brought her to the hospital. Apparently all these people are dog lovers. Maggie was placed on my bed and she licked my hand and then my chin. That had never happened before. I cried.
> 
> Maggie refused to eat her kibble the night before and that morning. So friend's boyfriend fed her roast white meat turkey. Well, at the hospital she was panting as she does not like car travel. But soon my food tray arrived and her little nose went to town.
> 
> Keep in mind that Maggie has never eaten from my hand. In fact, she will never eat if I or anyone else is in the same room. Nor will she drink water.
> 
> I cut up a plain, unseasoned chicken breast in small bites and placed them one at a time on a napkin by her face. She ate half the small breast. Then we dumped the grapes and put water in the little dish. She drank it all just a foot from me.
> 
> My friend left us alone for a half hour. Maggie stopped panting and lay down and I watched her breathing return to normal.
> 
> The next day my friend brought her back to visit. Again she was panting from the car ride. After petting her a little we got a styrofoam cup filled with water. I held it and Maggie drank it all. I cried some more.
> 
> This neurotic little dog is bonded to me and I had questioned that all along.
> 
> I got sprung from hospital next day late. My friends brought Maggie home to me, putting her down on the kitchen floor. I said, let's go out, Maggie. She bounded for the door and then the most amazing thing. She did her happy dance and twirls that she only does in the morning and she WAGGED HER TAIL! Since having her in August 2009 she has never wagged her tail for me, only for other dogs. Wow, just wow.
> 
> Well, you all wanted updates. Couldn't be more pleased to oblige.
> 
> Hope all had a fine day.


arty: Well, you never thought that would happen and then:flypig: Pigs did fly, didn't they? :welcome: Welcome back Kay and Maggie, I think about you so often:clap2:We all knew your fondest wish was for Maggie to bond with you:cheer2:And now that has happened...you made me cry reading this...but tears of happiness for you both! Maggie truly should be celebrating this day as her birthday for years to come..when she finally came out of her shell....I am so happy for you both!


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

kaydm said:


> Before last groom


I just saw this photo how wonderful she looks..she does look happier Kay..and now we know she is!!!


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## Kathie

How wonderful to hear your news! I also think about you and Maggie wondering how things are going. A tail wag? That IS exciting! Please keep us posted - we care!

Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## davetgabby

ahhh Kay, you've got me crying. Geeze that is awesome. She obviously is very attached to you, even though she doesn't show it in the same ways many dogs do. You have to keep in touch with us more often. Hope you are doing fine. No more sneaking off to the hospital without telling us. :nono: We want some more pics. too.


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## sandypaws

I wasn't on the forum when the original thread was posted in '09, so I read the entire "novel" today. It was very touching and I was quite moved by it. What a wonderful thing you did when you rescued Maggie and what a wonderful thing she did for you during your hospital stay. You have done amazing things with her and I know she's showing you her appreciation. Keep up the good work and stay healthy because Maggie needs you as you now know. She's a cutie!


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## davetgabby

wow Mary, good for you, that's one long thread.  It has moved me and still does.


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## kaydm

*Thank you all*

for kind words. I love this little dog and she loves being home with me. She does not do well with change. To get outside, we travel the length of the three season porch. If I have moved a chair and temporarily tossed an emply cardboard box out there, she always stops to investigate. Change is hard for her.

I am not ready to say a lot right now, but I could use some advice. In future it will be time to rehome Maggie. My dear friend wants her. She has one cat. Maggie likes cats. My dear niece wants her on her farm. Most of her pack lives indoors except for two huge white dogs who do live inside during most of winter and bad summer storms.

I have long thought Maggie would do well with a pack. But I have had only her for three and half years. I need to make a decision so nothing is left to chance. I want the very best for her and I don't want to leave her. But there it is. We're all mortal.

I would appreciate all your thoughts about my decision. With grateful thanks, Kay


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## Sheri

Kay, I can feel the heaviness in your post. I'm so sorry that you are having to face this decision. My heart hurts for you both.

I'm so glad for you and Maggie that you have a choice of two options for her that sound like good ones, under the circumstances. Can you spend time with Maggie at both places for short times to see how she reacts in each place?


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## shimpli

Your Maggie is a 'special' dog and you have been a wonderful Mom to her. It touches my heart so much because I have a 'special' daughter and a decision like this must be so difficult. I will be praying for you and for Maggie. Hugs.


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## davetgabby

Ahhhh Kay, I can't even imagine how hard this might be for you. I have a hard time thinking about this. I feel she might be better with your friend. She might be better off with a more quiet pace of life. Dogs of her nature, do better with less outside influences. Your friend sounds wonderful. I have to go but I'm not sure I will be able to sleep now. Talk later, God bless.


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## Kathie

Kay, I am so sorry about your situation. I can't imagine how difficult this must be for you. I like the idea of trying out each option to see what "fits" for Maggie. It did sound like she did well with your friend. You will be in my prayers as you face these difficult times.

Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## kaydm

*I am appreciating your thoughts re rehoming Maggie*

Just like with my close friends here at home, I am sorry to cause sadness or pain for those on this board thinking of my situation. What I most love about those closest to me is that not one is tippy toeing around what is happening. I love how straight they are with me.

Maggie just had her breakfast and danced her way out the door just now to do her business. I love her energy in the early morning with her twirl arounds and soft woofs.


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## krandall

It is wonderful that she can be such a comfort to you, especially considering all you have done for her. You two really have a special relationship.

I agree that it doesn't hurt to let her experience both, and see if one feels more comfortable for her than the other. My gut, however, agrees with Dave, that she is the type of dog who would probably do better in the quieter setting. It's wonderful, though that you have two viable options to choose from. That has to be a great comfort.


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## Miss Paige

I too am so sorry for the situation you are in. And I agree with both Dave & Karen. Having read the whole thread I think your friend's home would be the best place for her. Also please remember there is always Havanese Rescue Inc that you can turn to for rehomimg Maggie. They have foster homes that know how to help each Havanese that comes into HRI- and they are loving caring homes.


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## Suzi

kaydm said:


> Bethaney, Maggies's nose goes straight up and her head goes back and her howl is healthy, let me say. The reason the breeder sold her is that she would not allow herself to be bred, I was told. Maybe the reason for her loud howl is she has too much testosterone for a girl dog. lol


 I haven't read the whole trend but just wanted to let you know that temperament is also a big part of choosing a good breading bitch. And from some short statements about a separate building it does sound like you are dealing with a rescue. I'm sorry I haven't the time right now to read the whole trend but from what I have been reading I think you are doing a good job with her. I have no idea why you are thinking of re homing her. I will try and catch up to help support what ever you decide:grouphug: A weird twist: I think she was a very smart Havanese to roll over and not allow breeding. It bought her her freedom !


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## Chere

What wonderful news for you and Maggie. I have two rescues, Shadow and Jesse (James) and it took a very long time for them to truly bond with us. Now they follow us everywhere we go. But, like Maggie, they hate car rides, pant, whine, cry and throw up! So we don't go very far; four miles to the vet and two to the groomer! Hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving with Maggie.


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## Milo's Mom

Kay,
I always keep up with your journey with Maggie. Our rescue, Brookie, has also been a source of challenge, frustration, joy, and hope. We love her unconditionally for who she is as you love Maggie. I'm so glad that you have such good friends and family to support you through this difficult time. I agree with many here that Maggie would do better with your friend in a calmer environment. Can she gradually spend more time with her? My thoughts and prayers are with you.
Joyce


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## Suzi

Suzi said:


> I haven't read the whole trend but just wanted to let you know that temperament is also a big part of choosing a good breading bitch. And from some short statements about a separate building it does sound like you are dealing with a rescue. I'm sorry I haven't the time right now to read the whole trend but from what I have been reading I think you are doing a good job with her. I have no idea why you are thinking of re homing her. I will try and catch up to help support what ever you decide:grouphug: A weird twist: I think she was a very smart Havanese to roll over and not allow breeding. It bought her her freedom !


 Okay so I sat with my soup and read the last chapter in your's and Maggie's stories. I hadn't realized the trend had been an on going one for quit some time. Well My heart goes out to you and your sweet Maggie. You are a very good with words and I have enjoyed your path with her. I agree with the others about your friend maybe taking over the responsibility of her. She would have more one on one and would feel more like her first real home. Take care:grouphug: 
Suzi


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## Brady's mom

I just caught up on this thread. Maggie is such a pretty little girl. I am so sorry for what you are going through. Is your friend that wants Maggie the same one who sprung her from the vet when you were in the hospital? If so, she sounded wonderful with her. It sounds like Maggie has made huge strides. She is very lucky to have landed with you. Please know you both will remain in my thoughts and prayers.


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## Miss Paige

Chere,
How nice to hear that Jessie and Shadow are doing great-two amazing little boys who had a really rough start-tell them Auntie Pat send hugs and belly rubs.


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## gertchie

I have to count this as one of my favorite love stories ever, the whole story and the way you told it were wonderful! I am so sad that you will have to find a new home for her but it sounds like you have a couple of good choices. I agree with the others that said to try both to see which is more comfortable for her. I feel sorry that you have to do this, I know if it were me I would worry about Ozzie more than myself. Who knows how much they really understand? Maybe at this point you could let her take care of you for a bit? Please take care, my prayers are with you both


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## kaydm

Yes, my friend Hazel of over 35 years is the one who sprung Maggie from the vet boarding. So glad the vet called her. 

Hazel has a lovely quiet home with boyfriend (ooh, what a dumb word for partner in life). She had Lil Dude, a cat who talks to me on the phone. lol. Maggie likes the counter cats at the vet and at the groomer. They have an enormous yard which Hazel said Maggie ran around in exploring.


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## kaydm

Hazel has a great idea. Maggie usually makes herself scarce when I have company. But  Hazel was with me when I got Maggie and held her while I completed the transaction. 

Hazel thinks it would be great if she and I and Maggie cuddled on the couch at both my home and her home. Her thinking is that maybe Maggie can latch on to the idea that Hazel is a loved, trusted friend of mine. I am willing to try this with maybe a few bits of chicken at the end each time. lol


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## Moe's Gram

Kay, I was so happy to read your initial post about Maggie's progress. I know it has been a long road and I'm sure you were thrilled to see that all the work and love you have put into her has made a difference.

I was sad to read on about your current situation and having to re-homing Maggie. I know that you will do what is best for her as you have from the day you got her. 

I have missed hearing about how you both are doing. I hope you will be able to keep us posted as you make these hard decisions. Prayers going out for both of you.


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## Sheri

Kay, that is a great idea. And I'd imagine that Maggie had already attached feelings to Hazel since she was there when you first picked Maggie up. Snuggle time and chicken would have to be a good thing, right? And the fact that Maggie likes some cats would be a comfort to her, too.

I know that when I picked up a puppy years ago, and my mom held her while I drove, that puppy always had special feelings for my mom (who doesn't even particularly like dogs, ha!)


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## sandypaws

That sounds like a good plan, Kay. Perhaps after doing the snuggle thing a few times, you could leave her for an overnight pj party with Hazel, then work up to a weekend. By doing it gradually, it may help Maggie to form a deeper bond with Hazel and adjust easier. I am so sorry to hear your sad tale. It brought years to my eyes. I will pray for you and Maggie, as well.


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## krandall

sandypaws said:


> That sounds like a good plan, Kay. Perhaps after doing the snuggle thing a few times, you could leave her for an overnight pj party with Hazel, then work up to a weekend. By doing it gradually, it may help Maggie to form a deeper bond with Hazel and adjust easier. I am so sorry to hear your sad tale. It brought years to my eyes. I will pray for you and Maggie, as well.


I think Pam has told me that this is more or less what she does if she rehomes an older dog. (retired breeder) She'll have the person visit quite a few times, take the dog for walks, take the dog for an overnight, then a weekend.. by then they are typically comfortable enough with the other "trusted" people that the transition is much easier.


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## Tom King

I haven't read enough of this thread to be up on exactly what's going on, but I just thought I'd stick this in.

New owner needs to come get the dog. It should not be taken and left by it's last owner. The dog must go willingly with the new owner. If it's taken and left, it may never stop looking for it's old owner.


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## Sheri

That is interesting, Tom. I never would have thought of that being helpful in the dog's adjustment, for the reason you explain.


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## kaydm

*Yesterday*

My dear friend, Hazel, took me and Maggie to the groomer. I introduced Hazel as Maggie's future owner. Then I cried. Then Hazel said but not today, Kay.

Maggie was picked up by Hazel later in the day. Hazel said she put her on the seat next to her and talked to her and petted her all the way home.

Maggie never shook in the car and was very frisky and ready to claim her back yard for a few minutes before coming in.

I love how Hazel deals with her. She just treats Maggie like her beloved late Yorkie who was a velcro dog. I like the changes I am seeing with Maggie.

Latest news is a real bummer. Two of my doctors, radiolgist and eye doc have said I can no longer drive. I am such an independent woman, and my wheels have always been important to me. But I am not willing to risk accident to any other person or myself. So, for now, I am not driving. Yesterday, I stomped around the house at this news even though I agree.

Acceptance for me does mean I do not have to like the facts. This has worked so well for me in the past that I know eventually my anger will pass.

Hope all have a great day. Will try to get a pic of Maggie to post


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## Sheri

Hazel sounds like a diamond. It is good to read how well Maggie does with her, and I'm sure that is a huge relief for you. For later, but not for now. Hazel is right, and what a sweet friend.

It would be very difficult to giving up driving, but you are doing the right thing by turning in your keys, for now, at least.

Hugs to you, and a wave to Maggie!


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## Luciledodd

Kay I have not driven in weeks. And the few times I drove before I just quit was to the office and the grocery just a mile from me. It is a pain. I have to get someone to take me everywhere and my secretary quit because she didn't like having to bring mail out to my house and do the deposits, etc; but her last words were she didn't think she should have to get my meds from the pharmacist either. So my husband is doing all of that now. But if I get stronger and can get off some of the meds that are making me feel like I am losing my mind, I will be able to go back to the office. My eyes won't get any better though. I don't know what is wrong with you, but whatever it is, the forum members will pray for you, I know because they did for me.


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## Luciledodd

Kay I have not driven in weeks. And the few times I drove before I just quit was to the office and the grocery just a mile from me. It is a pain. I have to get someone to take me everywhere and my secretary quit because she didn't like having to bring mail out to my house and do the deposits, etc; but her last words were she didn't think she should have to get my meds from the pharmacist either. So my husband is doing all of that now. But if I get stronger and can get off some of the meds that are making me feel like I am losing my mind, I will be able to go back to the office. My eyes won't get any better though. I don't know what is wrong with you, but whatever it is, the forum members will pray for you, I know because they did for me.


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## davetgabby

Feel so bad for you Kay. I chatted online with Hazel. She sounds wonderful. You have made a good choice and are very lucky to have her take Maggie. Please keep us posted on how you are doing. You are such a great person, Hugs Dave.


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## sandypaws

Your stories bring tears to my eyes, but I am so glad that Maggie seems to be bonding with Hazel. It must be very hard on you to have to give her up, but it appears that she will be in good hands with someone who adores her as much as you do. Hang in there.


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## kaydm

*New pic and update*

I recently was hospitalized from Dec. 24 and got out Dec. 31.

While there, Maggie stayed with Hazel and Scott. On the day I got to go home, Hazel picked me up and we stopped at her house to get Maggie.

I walked in and Maggie was about 20 feet away. I called her to me, getting down on the floor. Keep in mind she never comes to me or anyone else.

Maggie saw me and started wagging her tail. She wagged her tail for me! That's a big deal. Then she ran to me and licked my face. Big, big deal. I held her on my lap in the car and was so happy to know this neurotic little dog knows to whom she belongs.


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## krandall

Awww, Kay, that is SO wonderful!!! I love the photo too. Your little girl obviously DOES love you!!!:focus::hug:


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## Sheri

Kay, what a sweet photo! She loves you and feels safe and at home with you. What a wonderful friend you have in Hazel, too! :hug:


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## Chere

Such a blessing to have her run to you; I have two adopted dogs from puppy mills and it took a very long time to have them warm up to us. Now they get so excited when we come home, running, jumping and kissing. Such a beautiful photo of the two of you.


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## Pipersmom

Great picture Kay! You are a great mom to Maggie and I am happy she is able to let you know how much she appreciates you


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## sandypaws

I'm so happy for you, Kay. Maggie certainly does know her Mommy and does love you even though it's been hard for her to show it. That's a great photo of the two of you and a touching story. It's heartwarming.


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## Suzi

:tea:She missed you and I'm sure you missed her too.


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## davetgabby

glad you're out of there. I was just about to email Hazel to see what's going on. lol. Maggie is just playing hard to get lol. You keep yourself on here once in a while. We get worried when we don't hear from you. No hiding ,cause I'll track you down. We could use some more pictures too. :biggrin1:


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## gertchie

Awwww....Thanks for the picture and for keeping up posted! I love Maggie & I'm so glad she's able to show you the love that she feels for you! Please take care


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## Moca

Wow. I joined this forum a couple days ago, and just finished reading through this thread. Kay, you've had me laughing and crying like I'm stuck in the middle of a Nicholas Sparks novel. It's quite the journey you've had with your Maggie. I'm very saddened by your last few posts, though, and pray that everything works out.


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## davetgabby

It is so sad to receive this letter from Kay's friend Hazel. I will keep in touch with her and keep this thread going in loving memory of Kay and Maggie. They touched our hearts and they certainly touched mine. God bless you Kay . Thanks for being such an inspiration . Maggie is in good hands. Rest peacefully. Love Dave and Molly. Here is Hazel's letter. 

Hi Dave, I'm typing this with a broken and heavy heart. Kay passed away Friday evening. I am so blessed to have known Kay and will miss her terribly. She was a strong and very wonderful woman. Maggie is a little confused but I keep talking to her, maybe one day she will understand that she is loved and will start to feel safe with me.


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## NvonS

Rest in peace Kay. One day you and Maggie will be reunited but until then she is in good hands with Hazel. We all should learn a lesson from this friendship. Our dogs need someone who they are comfortable with if we are ever faced with an emergency. I swapped dog watching with a friend for years. My friend passed away from breast cancer and I took her Tasha and she lived with me until she went to the Rainbow Bridge. I know my friend was there to greet her dear old friend. Now I have a neighbor who lost her dog a few years ago. She doesn't want a dog of her own but really enjoys her "vacations" with Lily. Make arrangements for your dogs in advance. You'll both be grateful if the time comes.


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## Alexa

I am so sad to hear this. Kay was a wonderful part of this forum. I am so thankful that Kay got to spend her last days knowing that all the hard work with Maggie had paid off and she has given this little pup the ability to love someone again. I hope Hazel will join the forum and give us updates on Maggie. 
With Love...Alexa and Marley


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## sandypaws

I didn't know Kay when she started this thread but had since read her "novel" and was so moved and touched by it. I am so saddened by this news for both Kay and Maggie and although we can no longer support Kay, I hope that we will be updated by Hazel on Maggie's transition. Both Kay and Maggie are fortunate to have such a wonderful friend. RIP Kay and some day you and Maggie will meet again on that rainbow bridge.


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## Pixiesmom

This whole thread is very touching. Be at peace Kay, and thank you Hazel.


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## jemmax

Kay is testament to being a wonderful Mommy - her consideration of Maggie was always foremost in her mind....how wonderful that at the end she received recognition from Maggie and knows that she will continue to do well with her friend Hazel. Rest in peace....


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## lfung5

My heart breaks to hear the awful news about Kay. I'm sure she will be missed by so many....... Rest in peace sweet Kay.


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## gertchie

This is one of my favorite love stories of all time and I will never forget the love and patience Kay had for Maggie. I am so happy that Maggie was able to show her love in the end and I just know those two will meet again. Rest in peace Kay...you were loved!


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## lise

Rest in Peace Kay. An honour to know of you and your dear Maggie.


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## Thumper

so sad.. :groupHUG:

Kara


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## Milo's Mom

I have been away and just had the opportunity to read Dave's posting. I remember reading Kay's first post and have followed her and Maggie's story since. Kay was a model for so many of us: kind, funny, consistent, super patient, determined, loving........although I never knew her personally, I will miss her and her love for Maggie.
Maggie, you now have an angel looking out for you! Kay, it was an honor to have shared your story in this forum. Hazel, thank you for your love of Kay and Maggie. Maggie, is a lucky little girl to have you.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

I can't read these just now...I loved reading Kay's stories. God Speed Kay!


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## davetgabby

yeah ,I'm still waiting for Hazel to join. She said she was so if nothing soon , I'll give her an email. Nice post Joyce.


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## wynne

Little Maggie will come around. She is probably scared, Give her time like the others have said. Keep us posted.


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## Sheri

Thanks, Dave. We all would love to hear from Hazel when she is able.


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## davetgabby

here is Hazels letter again as I posted it on another recent thread too. But I wanted to post it here where Maggie and Kay's story began. 

"Hi Dave, It's good to hear from you. Things are moving along, Maggie now runs to the door when I come home, tail wagging, and very excited to see me, she lays down and insists I rub her belly right there in front of the door, (It's the best feeling in the world).When I would call her to go out she would not move so I was carrying her to the door when she needed to go out, then I tried walking behind her to the door, and 3 days ago I went to the door and called her and TA! DA! drum roll please she came and has been doing so ever since. Baby steps. I'm about finished with Kay's house, so hopefully it will be put on the market by the middle of May. I miss her so much and I know she would be so pleased to see the changes in Maggie. Maggie and I spend a lot of special time together. The forum isn't out of the question, just haven't taken the time to learn something new. I'm sure after May I will have time. Thank you for reaching out to me".


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## Sheri

:clap2:


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## davetgabby

Time for an update. I emaied Hazel to enquire how her and Maggie are doing. Here's her reply....

"Thank you, Dave and Merry Christmas to you. Sorry I haven't been very good with updates, I've been busy tying up loose ends with Kay's estate. Maggie and I have bonded. Hard to believe it's already been a year! I love it when she comes to the door, tail wagging and smiling, yes I said smiling, when I come home. She gets lots of loving hugs and belly rubbing when I get home so it's a treat for both of us. There's nothing better than having Maggie on my lap. I promise to do a better job this year, maybe I'll learn to use my camera and send you some pics. I keep Maggie in a puppy cut she looks so cute cut short. Oh well, enough of my going on, about her. Again, have the merriest Christmas and New Year".. 

God Bless Kay. And thanks to Hazel for taking Maggie and doing such a wonderful job.


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## krandall

So nice to hear from them! Thank you for thinking of checking in, Dave!


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## Ditto's Mom

Thank you Dave for reaching out to Hazel.
So happy to hear Maggie is doing well. And that she "smiles" when Hazel comes home is over the top heartwarming. Maggie has come such a long way.


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## Sheri

Thank you for checking in with Hazel and Maggie. What a good report, it makes me smile.


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## Milo's Mom

Dave,

Thanks so much for updating us on Maggie and Hazel. I think of Kay often; her relationship with Maggie was a real love story that really touched my heart ( I think my ongoing journey with Brook made me even more sensitive to their story). Hearing about Maggie made my Christmas even brighter. Merry Christmas to all my forum friends!

Joyce


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## sprorchid

wow what an epic thread! very heart warming.


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## lfung5

I'm happy to hear Magggie is doing so well!!! Thanks for the update Dave


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## Lalla

Can't stop crying; I've only just read Kay and Maggie's story - I only joined the forum this summer, so have just read from the beginning, and like others who've come belatedly to it, have found so much to learn, be moved by, cry over, and to feel triumphant about. I want to share in thanking Dave for keeping in touch with Hazel and thereby keeping us in touch with Maggie's progress. Somehow this thread epitomises for me so much of what I love about the forum - the sharing of grief and joy, hope and loss, triumph and tears, laughter, heartbreak. Hazel, do please join us! I know Dave will help you. Or if it's all too much, do please keep on letting us know, through Dave, how you and Maggie are doing.


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## davetgabby

thanks Lalla, it is my favorite story over the years. Not too many of us remember Kay, but she sure was a wonderful lady. I still get choked up when I think of her and Maggie. It shows what patience and love can do.


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## swaye

And so it is as with a few other, I am late to this thread and read the entire epistle! What a remarkable woman was Kay. Even though I was not involved in this thread, I couldn't help myself and had a good cry for Kay. After getting myself together, I realized how happy she must be for Maggie to have her best friend Hazel taking over where she left off. What awesome women! And Maggie, you know you are a lucky girl. I had better quit now, I feel myself on the verge of tears again. I am so glad I read this. You ALL have been such tremendous support and help to Kay, Hazel and Maggie.


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## Lalla

davetgabby said:


> thanks Lalla, it is my favorite story over the years. Not too many of us remember Kay, but she sure was a wonderful lady. I still get choked up when I think of her and Maggie. It shows what patience and love can do.


Thanks to your keeping in touch with Hazel, Dave, and because of that connection your updating of this thread, actually MANY will remember Kay, and those of us who never had the pleasure of knowing her, thanks to you now know her story. That's a good memorial, isn't it, that all over the world there are fellow Havanese owners who know about Kay and can keep her memory alive alongside our interest in Maggie's Progress.


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## swaye

Lalla said:


> Thanks to your keeping in touch with Hazel, Dave, and because of that connection your updating of this thread, actually MANY will remember Kay, and those of us who never had the pleasure of knowing her, thanks to you now know her story. That's a good memorial, isn't it, that all over the world there are fellow Havanese owners who know about Kay and can keep her memory alive alongside our interest in Maggie's Progress.


Well put!


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## sandypaws

I remember reading Kay and Maggie's story earlier this year and what an amazing one it is. It still brings tears to my eyes when thinking about it. I'm so glad that things are working out for Maggie. Hazel certainly is a guardian angel.

Thank you, Dave, for updating this love story for us. Hope you will continue to get news and will share with us.


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## davetgabby

swaye said:


> And so it is as with a few other, I am late to this thread and read the entire epistle! What a remarkable woman was Kay. Even though I was not involved in this thread, I couldn't help myself and had a good cry for Kay. After getting myself together, I realized how happy she must be for Maggie to have her best friend Hazel taking over where she left off. What awesome women! And Maggie, you know you are a lucky girl. I had better quit now, I feel myself on the verge of tears again. I am so glad I read this. You ALL have been such tremendous support and help to Kay, Hazel and Maggie.


wow. and you're absolutely right.


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## chataboutthat

i've just read this story and i've been crying for an hour. what a remarkable woman! i'm so sorry that i didn't have the opportunity to know kay. i'm grateful that she had a loving friend like hazel who could help maggie with her loss. 

wow. what a story.


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## davetgabby

chataboutthat said:


> i've just read this story and i've been crying for an hour. what a remarkable woman! i'm so sorry that i didn't have the opportunity to know kay. i'm grateful that she had a loving friend like hazel who could help maggie with her loss.
> 
> wow. what a story.


and wow again, that's quite a read. Yeah it would make a good short story book.


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## Hsusa

Something moved me to read this thread about Kay and Maggie. I have tears in my eyes. What a wonderful, touching, happy, sad story.


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## krandall

Kay and Maggie were well-loved members of our forum. We miss them!


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## Milo's Mom

Dave,

Any recent news about Maggie? I often think of her and her love story with Kay.

Joyce


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## davetgabby

I sent Hazel an email a week ago and haven't heard back . I will try again.


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## lfung5

Yes, I was curious too. Hope everything is going well.


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## davetgabby

I rec'd this from Hazel ....

Hi Dave, What a year it's been! and here it is another new year. Maggie and I are doing fine, she has learned to beg for people food and is in the kitchen with us when we cook. She never went into Kay's kitchen. I think Maggie has gotten use to her new home, we still have a ways to go but everyday Maggie gets more at home. Maggie will be 8 yrs. old on the 23rd. Is it strange that she doesn't play with any toys? She never has, but I keep hoping maybe one day she will, is that a false hope? Hope all is well with you and all you love. Oh, I almost forgot, I'm going to take a class to learn how to post pictures. You will be the first person I send pictures to


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## Milo's Mom

It always warms my heart to hear about Maggie's progress. Thank you, Dave, for keeping in contact with Hazel. R.I.P., Kay, thank you for giving us this wonderful love story.


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## krandall

Thanks so much for the update, Dave!


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## Lalla

So wonderful to have up-to-date news; I do hope Hazel knows how many people follow hers and Maggie's progress, and love hearing about them. Thanks so much, Dave, for keeping us all up to speed with a remarkable story.


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