# Puppy Class with BIG dogs a Mistake?



## LunasMom (Sep 11, 2011)

Luna had her first puppy class last night and I am very concerned about events there. The class is an AKC sanctioned group which I had used for novice obedience class 13 years ago with my Husky. I got to class and saw dogs who looked really trained already--sit, down, stand, come etc--and discovered that they had been in the class for a number of sessions before. Luna and an Irish setter were the 2 new guys with 6 or 7 others dogs. All the dogs were big except for an miniature dachshund who showed up late. They all arrived on leash, did some sniffing, (Luna would jump up to a couple) and then off leash play followed. Well, Luna was all for that. She got in the middle of about 4 big dogs messing around and one of them (we think) stepped on her foot. Oh course she screamed horribly. One of the three trainers picked her up to comfort her rather than let me do it (why?) , checked her feet and Luna then seemed fine. She was placed back on the floor and the Irish setter began running after her in a way that must have even scared the trainers because one of them grabbed the setter's collar to stop her from getting Luna. I was pretty numb by then but later I realized any of these big dogs could see this tiny thing running, think she was prey, and the rest is too horrible to even think about. Now I don't know if I should continue in this class, insist that Luna be off leash only when big dogs are on leash, or just decide I have made a mistake, treat the cost as a donation to this organization and find myself a private trainer or another commercial puppy class. I would welcome and really appreciate your opinion and advice. BTW, Luna is extremely socialized to people. She did great in the "pass the puppy" part of class. Also, as you know, she loves the Pug who lives next door. Play with the miniature Dachshund was not satifying either. Luna got into place stance and the Dachshund snapped on her in attempt to protect its owner. Fortunately the Dachshund was on lead on that point. The trainers did make the two little dogs be off lead for a time when the big dogs were on leash. Also there is a pit bull puppy who does have growling issues. (Sorry for so many words but I want to paint a picture that's accurate)


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Wow. Sounds like a zoo! At our training center, "Puppy Kindergarten" is ALWAYS first-time YOUNG puppies. Even then, during free play, they divide them up and have the bigger/rougher puppies play together, then the little ones. It's just too easy for a tiny, small breed puppy to get hurt by even a well-meaning, bumbling large-breed puppy. (the small breed puppy is actually safer with a well behaved large breed adult dog!) Because the PK classes often have many more large dogs than small, Kodi often gets put into service to socialize small breed puppies. He is very gentle, and looks unintimidating to the new owners as well as the puppies!

We also have "continuing education" classes for older puppies who have already been through PK, but again, for free play, they are divided by size.

I would strongly suggest that you try to find another training facility where Luna can get the DOG socialization she needs. It sounds like she is very out-going now, and you really want to encourage that and not lose it. (and you might if she is not exposed to a LOT of other puppies NOW, while she is still a baby) But if you can't find a place with a safer setting, I'd go for safety first, and work really hard myself on arranging as many social opportunities as I possibly could for her myself.


----------



## Lizzie'sMom (Oct 13, 2010)

That's why Lizzie is a Puppy School dropout. It was all large feisty dogs at her class. Unfortunately, there aren't any dedicated small breed classes around here. They have special doodle, lab, and golden classes, but no small dogs. I hope that you can find a class that suits her.


----------



## Becky Chittenden (Feb 4, 2009)

The classes I go to don't have the dogs off lead (they are conformation classes). If at the end you want your dog to play, they do so on lead. This way you don't have to play with any dog you don't feel it's safe. The dogs are also lined up by size. The trainer (she's also a professional handler) makes sure the two large dogs that are first in line are calm reliable dogs for when they go around to the back of the line. Works for me.


----------



## LunasMom (Sep 11, 2011)

Lizzie'sMom said:


> That's why Lizzie is a Puppy School dropout. It was all large feisty dogs at her class. Unfortunately, there aren't any dedicated small breed classes around here. They have special doodle, lab, and golden classes, but no small dogs. I hope that you can find a class that suits her.


What have you done to socialize Lizzie? Did you try to just skip puppy class and wait until Lizzie was ready for Novice Obedience?


----------



## LunasMom (Sep 11, 2011)

Becky Chittenden said:


> The classes I go to don't have the dogs off lead (they are conformation classes). If at the end you want your dog to play, they do so on lead. This way you don't have to play with any dog you don't feel it's safe. The dogs are also lined up by size. The trainer (she's also a professional handler) makes sure the two large dogs that are first in line are calm reliable dogs for when they go around to the back of the line. Works for me.


That sounds really good Becky. I know that dogs behave differently when they are off leash vs on leash. Did you find the on leash play was sufficient for socializing? When I went to class I was more interested in the socialization than the obediience training. My previous large dog never was in a puppy class (just obedience) but I did find dogs for her to play with in her size range and she was so socialized that she could go to dog parks from Southern Cal to Alaska to NY! Any ideas how to find playmates for Luna?


----------



## LunasMom (Sep 11, 2011)

krandall said:


> Wow. Sounds like a zoo! At our training center, "Puppy Kindergarten" is ALWAYS first-time YOUNG puppies. Even then, during free play, they divide them up and have the bigger/rougher puppies play together, then the little ones. It's just too easy for a tiny, small breed puppy to get hurt by even a well-meaning, bumbling large-breed puppy. (the small breed puppy is actually safer with a well behaved large breed adult dog!) Because the PK classes often have many more large dogs than small, Kodi often gets put into service to socialize small breed puppies. He is very gentle, and looks unintimidating to the new owners as well as the puppies!
> 
> We also have "continuing education" classes for older puppies who have already been through PK, but again, for free play, they are divided by size.
> 
> I would strongly suggest that you try to find another training facility where Luna can get the DOG socialization she needs. It sounds like she is very out-going now, and you really want to encourage that and not lose it. (and you might if she is not exposed to a LOT of other puppies NOW, while she is still a baby) But if you can't find a place with a safer setting, I'd go for safety first, and work really hard myself on arranging as many social opportunities as I possibly could for her myself.


 Karen, can Luna, DH and I move in with you and Kodi? Kodi sounds like the perfect answer to my problem.
Seriously, I can see that we will have some dramatic changes before I will allow a repeat of last night. I was so surprised at the events.I realize how dumb I was to trust even experienced trainers with my dog. DH was watching from the sidelines and he told me after hearing Luna scream he almost pulled her out of the class then and there.


----------



## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

so scary and SO thankful Luna is okay!!

She should really be in a class with small puppies or small breeds in my opinion. NOT that that is always possible for sure though!  

Tillie used to be great with all other dogs, and then she had too many run-in's ON leash while out for walks! The dogs would start out okay sniffing and tails wagging, etc and then the big dog (husky, lab, mixes) turn on her! WTH!? Once this husky seemed friendly enough, the owner SAID she was freindly, started out freindly then TURNED and tried to attack Tillie! almost got her by the neck, thankfully all her hair protected her a bit! LOL that was kind of the 'last straw' ever since then she barks at ALL big dogs and at some small ones. Once given the chance to get close and sniff she doesn't bark anymore. I am torn between training this annoying barking out of her and thinking You GO Tillie, PROTECT yourself girl! LOL
we have to do what we have to do to keep our fragile babies safe in a world that is not.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

LunasMom said:


> Karen, can Luna, DH and I move in with you and Kodi? Kodi sounds like the perfect answer to my problem.
> Seriously, I can see that we will have some dramatic changes before I will allow a repeat of last night. I was so surprised at the events.I realize how dumb I was to trust even experienced trainers with my dog. DH was watching from the sidelines and he told me after hearing Luna scream he almost pulled her out of the class then and there.


Kodi would LOVE to be Luna's mentor!

I have to say though, no matter how many classes the trainers in your class have run, I would question their judgement and expertise. I watch class after class of Puppy Kindergarten go through our center (My agility class is at the same time) and they are all mostly large breed puppies with just a very few small breed puppies mixed in. The trainer at our center makes sure safety comes first. She works very hard to make sure that the small breed puppies have an opportunity to socialize and have fun too, but if there isn't a good match for the little puppy, and Kodi's not around, the little puppy wills tay on the other side of ring gating so that s/he can visit safely through the gating with the bigger pups.

Often, as time goes on, at least a few of the bigger pups (especially the "giant breeds" like Newfies, Great Danes, St. Bernards) get the hang of playing gently and safely with a little playmate. THen she will let just that dog play with the little ones. I remember in Kodi's PK class, there was a Golden Retriever puppy. In the beginning, Kodi was a little worried about EVERYONE. After a while, he got more confident, and he really got to like the Golden. He would chase her around, and eventually she would roll on her back and let him pounce on her. It was really cute.


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Carol don't give up on the idea. Puppy classes should be mostly off leash and should involve large and small pups interacting. Here's a video by Ian Dunbar. 



!


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

here's another article http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/protecting-little-dog


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> Carol don't give up on the idea. Puppy classes should be mostly off leash and should involve large and small pups interacting. Here's a video by Ian Dunbar.
> 
> 
> 
> !


I definitely agree she shouldn't give up. That said, I watched the video, and I think it's great if you can actually go to a class like this with Ian Dunbar. What I've seen in too many places (particularly the big box pet store classes) is that the "trainers" don't have the expertise to be able to keep really small puppies safe from large breed puppies. It's got to be kept safe for the little ones until you have those bullies in line.

The other problem is that the age range in puppy classes in general is much older than what Dr. Dunbar suggests because people are advised by their vets not to take the puppy out in public until they've had all their shots. That means that most aren't aren't STARTING their puppy class until they are between 14 and 18 weeks old.

In the best of all worlds, Dr. Dunbar's method is perfect. But in real life this kind of class is REALLY hard to find.


----------



## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

Karen, it sounds like you have such an amazing trainer and facilities .. think my husband would let us move there? LOL  I've ALWAYS dreamed of visiting "New England" .. seriously, I have.


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

That's why you should preview classes. There are lots of good classes. And of all the trainers I've listened to. there have been next to no real serious issues, like Cindy's article mentions. Check them out first. There are definitely some people training that shouldn't be but like this article mentions ,there is still something to be gained with the less than best.http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/bad-puppy-classes


----------



## LunasMom (Sep 11, 2011)

davetgabby said:


> here's another article http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/protecting-little-dog


Thanks, Dave. I read the article and the accompanying comments and find there is certainly a difference of opinion regarding a mixture of small and large dogs in puppy class. Luna is certainly not afraid of any big dog at this point but ...
Incidentally, Dunbar's book "Good Little Dog Book" was given to me at the start of class yesterday so I assume the book will reflect the views I saw on the video you suggested.


----------



## LunasMom (Sep 11, 2011)

krandall said:


> I definitely agree she shouldn't give up. That said, I watched the video, and I think it's great if you can actually go to a class like this with Ian Dunbar. What I've seen in too many places (particularly the big box pet store classes) is that the "trainers" don't have the expertise to be able to keep really small puppies safe from large breed puppies. It's got to be kept safe for the little ones until you have those bullies in line.
> 
> The other problem is that the age range in puppy classes in general is much older than what Dr. Dunbar suggests because people are advised by their vets not to take the puppy out in public until they've had all their shots. That means that most aren't aren't STARTING their puppy class until they are between 14 and 18 weeks old.
> 
> In the best of all worlds, Dr. Dunbar's method is perfect. But in real life this kind of class is REALLY hard to find.


You are right Karen. In fact I tried to get Luna into the class two weeks ago (at 12 weeks) a.nd they told me there was no room but that was ok because Luna was a small dog anyway. Consequently she would be unable to get the full 8 weeks of puppy class because she started at 14 weeks and the age range for the class is 12 to 20. In other words she's out at 20 no matter what.:frusty:


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

LunasMom said:


> Thanks, Dave. I read the article and the accompanying comments and find there is certainly a difference of opinion regarding a mixture of small and large dogs in puppy class. Luna is certainly not afraid of any big dog at this point but ...
> Incidentally, Dunbar's book "Good Little Dog Book" was given to me at the start of class yesterday so I assume the book will reflect the views I saw on the video you suggested.


yeah that book is consistent with the video. The point that Cindy, makes is that at this early age, puppies are easily trained , you just have to watch them closely. You intervene every thirty seconds and give them feedback if one is too rough. At this age puppies are not yet aggessive ,just unmannered.,and accidents like stepping on paws are usually not serious. Trust Ian, this is the guy that invented puppy classes. He has witnessed millions. Just about any trainer will recommend puppies interact with puppies of all sizes. Aggression in small dogs is almost always caused by lack of socialization , and quite often as related to larger dogs. This has to be done off leash. When dogs are on leash , that's when problems arise. Buy the book that Cindy links to.


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/puppy socialization.pdf


----------



## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

LunasMom said:


> Luna had her first puppy class last night and I am very concerned about events there. The class is an AKC sanctioned group which I had used for novice obedience class 13 years ago with my Husky. I got to class and saw dogs who looked really trained already--sit, down, stand, come etc--and discovered that they had been in the class for a number of sessions before. Luna and an Irish setter were the 2 new guys with 6 or 7 others dogs. All the dogs were big except for an miniature dachshund who showed up late. They all arrived on leash, did some sniffing, (Luna would jump up to a couple) and then off leash play followed. Well, Luna was all for that. She got in the middle of about 4 big dogs messing around and one of them (we think) stepped on her foot. Oh course she screamed horribly. One of the three trainers picked her up to comfort her rather than let me do it (why?) , checked her feet and Luna then seemed fine. She was placed back on the floor and the Irish setter began running after her in a way that must have even scared the trainers because one of them grabbed the setter's collar to stop her from getting Luna. I was pretty numb by then but later I realized any of these big dogs could see this tiny thing running, think she was prey, and the rest is too horrible to even think about. Now I don't know if I should continue in this class, insist that Luna be off leash only when big dogs are on leash, or just decide I have made a mistake, treat the cost as a donation to this organization and find myself a private trainer or another commercial puppy class. I would welcome and really appreciate your opinion and advice. BTW, Luna is extremely socialized to people. She did great in the "pass the puppy" part of class. Also, as you know, she loves the Pug who lives next door. Play with the miniature Dachshund was not satifying either. Luna got into place stance and the Dachshund snapped on her in attempt to protect its owner. Fortunately the Dachshund was on lead on that point. The trainers did make the two little dogs be off lead for a time when the big dogs were on leash. Also there is a pit bull puppy who does have growling issues. (Sorry for so many words but I want to paint a picture that's accurate)


 My puppy class was all large breed puppys. We only had one instructor and 4 dogs total. Zoey never played with the larger puppys. Our trainer didn't push her at all . She started with just 2 dogs off leash at a time and kept the other two on their leash. My trainer could tell Zoey was a bit fearful of the larger dogs and waited tell about the third class and put her out with the calmest large puppy he was a Bernese Mt dogound: I do wish we had had a class with small breed dogs I think she would have had more fun. At least during puppy play time. I think its great that Luna got right in their but I don't think she should have to have big dogs lunging at her. I would ask your instructor if she could start with just one puppy and preferably a calm one.


----------



## jillnors2 (Apr 12, 2007)

> Wow. Sounds like a zoo! At our training center, "Puppy Kindergarten" is ALWAYS first-time YOUNG puppies. Even then, during free play, they divide them up and have the bigger/rougher puppies play together, then the little ones.


 In my puppy class, the pups were all around 6-8 months. We did have off leash play and we did have large dogs in our class. We (teacher and I) would really watch Mayzie to make sure she wasn't fearful (or hurt) and I'd pick her up at times. Her very very favorite dog was a Mastiff. I think I was lucky that my teacher was very aware and dog savvy.


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

jillnors2 said:


> In my puppy class, the pups were all around 6-8 months. We did have off leash play and we did have large dogs in our class. We (teacher and I) would really watch Mayzie to make sure she wasn't fearful (or hurt) and I'd pick her up at times. Her very very favorite dog was a Mastiff. I think I was lucky that my teacher was very aware and dog savvy.


Actually that isn't really puppy classes. Those are adolescents. Doesn't matter so long as you got something out of it. But different approaches are needed, for pups this old.


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I'm glad Luna is okay.. I am torn on this, I do think we should socialize them to bigger dogs, but possibly in a different setting, with more control over the situation. I'd hate to create a phobia or problem and even worse, an accident or injury.

Kara


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Thumper said:


> I'm glad Luna is okay.. I am torn on this, I do think we should socialize them to bigger dogs, but possibly in a different setting, with more control over the situation. I'd hate to create a phobia or problem and even worse, an accident or injury.
> 
> Kara


Kara, your concern is typical . We all want our dogs to be safe. But this is THE best place and TIME to do it. It has to take place before four months of age in particular. And must continue to take place for the rest of their lives. The class is the perfect place because this is where they can be OFFLEASH. This is very important. It's the same reason that we don't take a leashed dog into a dog park. The two don't mix. The dog on the leash becomes reactive, because he has no method of flight.. Small dog in particular need this or they remain afraid of big dogs for the rest of their lives. The control is you, the trainer and hopefully the other dog owner. You never will have more control than this.


----------



## LunasMom (Sep 11, 2011)

davetgabby said:


> Kara, your concern is typical . We all want our dogs to be safe. But this is THE best place and TIME to do it. It has to take place before four months of age in particular. And must continue to take place for the rest of their lives. The class is the perfect place because this is where they can be OFFLEASH. This is very important. It's the same reason that we don't take a leashed dog into a dog park. The two don't mix. The dog on the leash becomes reactive, because he has no method of flight.. Small dog in particular need this or they remain afraid of big dogs for the rest of their lives. The control is you, the trainer and hopefully the other dog owner. You never will have more control than this.


Dave, I have read Dr. Dunbar's views on this subject in the materials you suggested and in his book and if I were totally confident that the puppies, people, and trainers all were on board, I would say fine, put the little guys with the big guys. I believe I have the best set of trainers (non-pet store, non-commercial) around here, but I am still worried. How do I know that the Irish setter puppy who was running after Luna didn't see her as prey, catch her, give her a shake and ....? (That dog was the only one that had not been in class before. ) Furthermore, Dr. Dunbar has dogs off lead 55 minutes, not 5 as many puppy classes do--just one of many differences between his methods and how those methods have been modified by less able trainers, IMHO. I agree with the person in this thread that pointed out that we all don't have perfect situations. I have just about decided to go back to this class and see how things go next Wednesday. Maybe they will be able to tell me how to get Luna to walk on a leash without putting the leash in her mouth.:frusty:


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

LunasMom said:


> Dave, I have read Dr. Dunbar's views on this subject in the materials you suggested and in his book and if I were totally confident that the puppies, people, and trainers all were on board, I would say fine, put the little guys with the big guys. I believe I have the best set of trainers (non-pet store, non-commercial) around here, but I am still worried. How do I know that the Irish setter puppy who was running after Luna didn't see her as prey, catch her, give her a shake and ....? (That dog was the only one that had not been in class before. ) Furthermore, Dr. Dunbar has dogs off lead 55 minutes, not 5 as many puppy classes do--just one of many differences between his methods and how those methods have been modified by less able trainers, IMHO. I agree with the person in this thread that pointed out that we all don't have perfect situations. I have just about decided to go back to this class and see how things go next Wednesday. Maybe they will be able to tell me how to get Luna to walk on a leash without putting the leash in her mouth.:frusty:


 Ian talks about this in the video, if one pup is too over the top you are right there to tone him down sort of thing. Your puppy is quite capable of letting him know too that he's getting too carried away. Never underestimate their ability to protect themselves. What you're feeling is natural. But I know a lot of trainers , nearly all of which are certified and some of which are the best in the country,and they nearly all encourage large /small dog interactions like this in puppy classes. Some might not have their entire one hour session off leash but they do try to implement this as much as possible. It can vary according to the size of the group . Keep in mind the purpose of puppies classes in not really learning commands , its more important to learn socialization and bite inhibition. And above all have fun.


----------



## DonnaC (Jul 31, 2011)

Having a dachshund has taught me not to generalize about dogs based on their size. She's miniature, but, like most dachshunds, she is fearless and LOVES big dogs. She's not a bully, but she's not retiring, either, and she holds her own. She just wants to have fun and, when possible, get her way. When I compare her behavior to that of other puppies -- small or large -- I don't see much difference at all. Her companions in puppy training were huge, and all the owners were having the same issues. It's just that the consequences with the bigger dogs can be more serious, so you have to keep an eye on your little breed puppies.

On the other hand, my Hav, Baxter, is timid around other dogs -- no matter what size. And, because of that, even the little ones sometimes try to dominate him, so I have to keep a careful eye on pretty much every encounter he has. Fortunately -- or not (I can't decide) -- Baxter will often let Libby get in front and stay safely behind her.


----------



## LunasMom (Sep 11, 2011)

I totally agree that the primary purpose of puppy class should be socialization. Training should be a distant second. Until last Wednesday evening I was so looking forward to the experience for Luna who is so social already--she loves every person and every dog she meets. I am still pretty nervous but I really appreciate the efforts you all have made to share your wisdom with me. When we got our last puppy 13+ years ago, I did not know about puppy classes until we started obedience (too late for puppy class then). It looked like everyone sat around and the puppies just played. Needless to say, I was really surprised when I heard recently that they do all this leash stuff in puppy class! Although my last dog did not have a puppy class, I instinctively realizes she needed--and really wanted--contact with other dogs so she grew into an adult dog have much more of a social life than DH or I! She was a wonderfully socialized dog who was good with all humans and all dogs large and tiny--unlike some Siberians I have read about in this Forum. In fact, at one time I had to protect her from a couple of little dogs who were off leash (in a place they were not supposed to be off leash) and attacked her back legs. My sweet girl, on leash, did not attack them back but she could have easily dispatched these ill-mannered tinies. I protected my big dog and did give their owner heck, however.

Again, thanks to all who took their time to help me. I will let you know what happens this week.


----------



## LunasMom (Sep 11, 2011)

Second puppy class a big success. Thanks to all of you that encouraged us not to quit after our first tough class. Last night during off-leash time, the trainer separated the large class (even bigger than last week) into two groups. Luna's group included some big guys--a golden retriever and a Australian Shepherd--and a black lab puppy who was just a little bit bigger than she was. It was great! She was really interested in their rear ends. She really wants to play with every dog there and she loves "pass the puppy". I wonder if she really knows I'm Mom because she will "go" to anyone gleefully.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Fantastic! So glad to hear it was a success! (and I'm SURE she knows who mom is... she just doesn't want to get out of the "sand box")


----------

