# Need advice.....



## GoldenLove (Dec 3, 2010)

Hello everyone, I need some help with this one. I have an 8 month old Havanese who seems really fearful. I was told she grew up around two kids and other dogs and was well socialized&#8230; well, from my experience with her she is either traumatized from the flight or very UN-socialized. idk

*Day 1 *

Zoey wouldn't come out her kennel. I left the kennel door open for her to come out on her own, and when she did it was real slow with tail tucked. Poor baby seem terrified. I'm guessing the flight may have traumatized her. I'm not really sure but I know it will take her some time to come around. I took her to the vet and they said she looks great, but she was missing the bordatella vaccine. They gave her the nasal mist. She hasn't eaten anything. Could it be because she is stressed? Wow taking her out to potty is a challenge she does not like the leash.

*Day 2*

She seems a little more relaxed than yesterday, but still really unsure. She runs from the kids and my dog. She does show curiosity because she will walk up to them but with any movement from them she runs and hide. I have an area set up for her in my living room and she hides there often. She started following me everywhere but if I go to pet her or pick her up she will duck low to the floor and back up or run right back to her bed. When I was sitting on the sofa she came up to me and just sat there staring. I put her on the sofa with me and she fell asleep. When my youngest child Bella (3years old) walked into the living room Zoey growled at her for no apparent reason. I did stop her by saying ahh ah and she took off to her bed.

*Day 3*

Potty training is going good she had one accident in the house, and that was my fault. I brought her out and when it started raining we came right back in but she didn't have time to potty.

I think Zoey is a fearful dog because she seems scared of everything. I'm hoping with time and training she will come around. The broom fell this morning it didn't touch her but she got really startled and went hide. She spent most of the day in her bed besides when I brought her out to potty. Tonight she bit my youngest.  I believe it may have been out of fear, I don't know. Bella was sitting on the floor and Zoey came right up to her but when Bella tried to pick her up she growled and bit her. I say maybe fear because she seems so scared and unsure. I hope she improves with training. I have decided to no longer allow her on the sofa with us until she learns order (is this the right thing to do?). My little girl is an animal lover so it didn't bother her but I do need to correct this behavior.

*Day 4*

Zoey woke up this morning really excited prancing around tail wagging, I was in shock. It was a major difference but it didn't last long before she ran to her bed again. I brought her out while waiting to put the kids on the bus she was able to meet my neighbor's yorkie. Zoey was overly excited wanting to play. For some reason she is hesitant to play with my golden but I guess since Lizzy the yorkie is small like her she feels more comfortable.

Wow&#8230;. I guess Zoey wanted to prove me wrong. To my surprise, she played with Diesel my golden for a little bit today. Is this progress???? Now it's to get her used to the kids. patience, patience, patience&#8230;&#8230;.










I believe she will come around. I will also be seeing a behaviorist. Then I will get her into some training classes.

*Today Day 5 *

So far today she has shown a little more progress. She has been coming out of her little corner a lot more than usual and we had a good time playing outside earlier (just Zoey and me) I believe she is slowly building trust in me.


----------



## CacheHavs (Aug 2, 2007)

This is a huge change for her in this time, so you need to be patient with her. I always tell my people to expect the older puppies/adults that it could take as much as 2-3 months to fully come around. When I had gotten my first girl, she was 8 months old, but by the time I could actually get her imported her she was 10 months. She had left every thing she had ever knew, came to a new place by herself that was full of new people, dogs and smells, and nothing that she was familiar with. She took to me fairly quick, but it took her about 10 months to finally warm up to everyone in the house.
I had told my kids to just let her be, and on the occasion I would hold her to let the kids pet her, but never let them force play on her. ( I think you may need to take the same approach with your children too. It may also help Zoey feel a little more comfortable. Let her be the one to approach the kids.)
If you to meet my girl today you would never know that she had several issues when she first came to us. She loves everyone and plays and follows all members of the family.

I think it is important to let her have the time to adjust, and when she does some thing good or right praise her and give her your happy voice. I think you were expecting her to just fall into all of your arms with kisses and like she had lived with you all the time, when in reality she was uprooted from what she knew and was use to. 

Please give her time, It sounds like she is already making progress.

By the way she is really a cutie. Good luck with her.


----------



## Pipersmom (Jul 27, 2009)

Congratulations! Zoey is so cute. I agree, she's probably just terrified and needs time to get used to your home. If you think about what the plane must have been like and then to be in a place she doesn't know, it's scary. She'll find out soon enough how lucky she is to be with your family.

I have to say that she looks really happy in that last picture. It made me smile just looking at it.


----------



## GoldenLove (Dec 3, 2010)

Thank you! 

I did tell the kids to leave her, and they have been doing good. You are so right... I have worked with rescues before and fostered so I know it takes time but I was wanting her to fall into all of our arms with kisses.


----------



## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

awwww, she DOES look super happy in that last pic!!!
and your day to day journalling REALLY shows that she IS warming up, give her time and lots of PRAISE!!!


----------



## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Heather is sooo right. We see all the media that shows the rescues and they all my the end look happy and adjusted and does happen, just not at that speed. Yes even older dogs coming from great breeders need time and work. My girl Misty has taken time and still adjusting she is 3, the breeder had others, I wanted her and was warned she had become a bit shy over time. She is nothing like a mill dog, but she takes awhile to warm up and it took 6 months for her to warm up to my blind dog, the Hav she warmed up to quickly. Life is so different here. She has done well in training and shines in rally and is doing pre novice. She is my little star...yet she is still people shy but doing better everyday. At home she is a much different dog then when we first brought her home. Trust, you have to earn her trust then do the journey together.


----------



## GoldenLove (Dec 3, 2010)

CacheHavs said:


> This is a huge change for her in this time, so you need to be patient with her. I always tell my people to expect the older puppies/adults that it could take as much as 2-3 months to fully come around. When I had gotten my first girl, she was 8 months old, but by the time I could actually get her imported her she was 10 months. She had left every thing she had ever knew, came to a new place by herself that was full of new people, dogs and smells, and nothing that she was familiar with. She took to me fairly quick, but it took her about 10 months to finally warm up to everyone in the house.
> I had told my kids to just let her be, and on the occasion I would hold her to let the kids pet her, but never let them force play on her. ( I think you may need to take the same approach with your children too. It may also help Zoey feel a little more comfortable. Let her be the one to approach the kids.)
> If you to meet my girl today you would never know that she had several issues when she first came to us. She loves everyone and plays and follows all members of the family.
> 
> ...


Awesome advice! I'm glad I'm not alone in this. Even though I may have fostered or worked with rescues I have never worked with one that was fearful. So this is new for me. I told my kids not to bother her when she was in her bed because thats her safe place (thats where she seems to be most comfortable for now), but I guess it wouldn't be a bad idea for me to hold her and let them pet her.


----------



## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

Zoey has the Havanese head tilt down to a tee!I'm sure given time she will come round and be very loving.When we got our second Hav Nellie, she was super confident until she met our youngest son [who is 27]when he came for a visit,unfortunately as he came in the back gate the bin men arrived making a terrible noise, and it freaked Nellie out,plus in the morning she had her second shots which she squealed at,anyway after that she was really scared of all men,even my DH,so we had to start from scratch, and get her trust in men back.First I would do things like when she was on my lap or asleep by me, DH would gently and quietly sit next to us and as she woke he would give her a little treat, I did the same with other male members of the family,also when ever any of our sons came home I would pick Nellie up and hand her gently over to them and again they would give her a little treat.And now she is fine with them all she is just 8 months old.


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Well, the good news is, that no matter what fears she had before, they can be eased and even fixed with patience and the right training.

Try to put yourself in her paws () she has been through so many scary things over the last week and lost everything she knew and loved and came into a whole new environment with new people and smells and dogs and she just needs time to figure it out.

Havanese are very 'routined' animals, I'd even go a bit far to say they even can have some OCD habits and really do well and thrive on routine, so the sooner you can establish the routine, the safer I think they feel.

I'd just go slowly with the kids and other dogs. I'd let your daughter help with feedings and treats and training and I'd reprimand the growling and biting, however, I'd also work on getting her to trust the kids picking her up.

My girl doesn't like my twin stepdaughters to pick her up (or I should say didn't) because one actually did drop her when she was a puppy, and she's gotten much better with small children picking her up but I can still tell that she's a bit anxious when they do, just be right there and give her a treat and praise and start helping build the trust.

I'd probably let her sit on the couch next to you, feeling the love and companionship will likely help her adjust and start to feel at home and love you back. It'll happen with time, havanese are wonderful, very loving dogs...and I do think the behaviorist will help and I also believe you will succeed and have a wonderful result in a few weeks//months 

:welcome: to the forum!

She's absolutely as cute as can be!

Kara


----------



## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I have to agree, she looks happy in the last picture but you have to give her time. I always liken it to a human being transported to a foreign country where nobody speaks her language. She's alone and frightened, and she's old enough to have had experiences of a lifetime imprinted on her psyche. 

Let her do this on her terms. Let her come to you and the rest of the family. You might want to sit on the floor and let her come to you and/or the kids if/when she's ready. You can have some treats that you can put down near you, but things she can take and either stay or go with them. She just needs time. She is a cutie though.


----------



## maria v (Oct 31, 2007)

*Did you see a behaviorist?*

I would at least get a consultation sooner than later.
She looks adorable!


----------



## GoldenLove (Dec 3, 2010)

maria v said:


> I would at least get a consultation sooner than later.
> She looks adorable!


I will be calling them on Monday. I sent an email and got a quick reply. They want for me to call them so we can discuss the matter further, arrange to do an in home evaluation and set up a behavior modification plan.


----------



## jacqui (Aug 7, 2007)

Thanks for sharing your journal about Zoey. She is such a sweetheart. I am sure she will come around because you are such a caring person. It will take awhile, as others have said, but she will learn to trust you. Trust is the most important thing for animals, IMHO.


----------



## GoldenLove (Dec 3, 2010)

*update*

*Days 6,7,8*

I won't go into all the details for each day but they were good days. I was told to try and let her eat out our hands that way she associates us with a good thing. I had the kids try to feed her and it was successful. She was curious and came up to them smelled the food grabbed a piece then walked away to eat, but she kept coming back for more

*Day 9*

A friend came over and Zoey ran to her little corner scared, and shaking. If my friend got to close to her she growled. I don't know what my friend was thinking...maybe the closer she got that my dog would accept her but all it did was frighten her more. I had to tell her to back off and I put Zoey in her kennel and covered it so she could feel safer.

*Day 10*

I feel confident to say that Zoey has developed some TRUST in me, but ONLY me. She has come a long way in such a short time.

I was very surprised to see that while Bella my youngest child was sitting on the sofa Zoey decided to join her she is still unsure and that's OK but she is making an effort.

*Day 11*

My kids have been doing great not bothering her at all. I told them she will come to them when she is ready and not to grab her. This morning my little girl said mom watch this she sat on the floor and said, "come here Zoey" and Zoey ran up to her licked her on the nose then ran back into her bed.

I did talk to a behaviorist but before going through with an apt (which for 2 hours is going to cost me $425) I decided to wait and allow time for her to adjust before I go that route.

****Well tonight was not so good. My sister came to visit and I am watching her kids while she work. The kids did not bother Zoey at all, but she went into her corner and did not come out. She would growl every now and then but no one was bothering her. Just having the kids in the living room obviously made her uneasy. I did get the kids into our great room to play so it was quieter in the living room.

When it's just Zoey and I she is great. She follows me everywhere, and wants to play. However, when the kids are here or company comes over she stays in her corner and sometimes growl.

I know it's only been a short time, but I feel like a failure. I have worked with my foster dogs and have had amazing progress and found great homes. However, with my own rescue it has been difficult. I guess the behaviorist is needed. I have contacted another trainer which is not as expensive.

I have also bought a book, "How to live with and train a fearful dog"

*Day 12*

It seems like when Zoey takes a step forward she takes two steps back as far as progress. Zoey has been unpredictable. She plays one minute then growls the next. She growls at everyone but me. She growled and snapped at my 9 year old and all she did was bend down to pick up something from the floor.

*Day 13*

This morning she seemed OK for a little while. She was very happy when we went outside just her and me and Diesel, but when we came inside she started growling at my husband.

Tonight we grilled some food and had friends over. I made sure everyone knew not to mess with her or go near her just to leave her, but she still growled at everyone that entered my living room. I moved her so she was in a more quite place.

The conflict I have is she should be in a quite calm environment, but I have four children and lots of nieces and nephews that come over often. Zoey growls at adults and children but I think children make her really uneasy and I can't make my children not come into the living room. I can move her but I don't want her to feel alone.&#8230; I really dont know what to do.  While the kids are in school its pretty quitet here, maybe I should just move her to a quieter place when company comes over.

****I read the book "*How to live with and Train a Fearful Dog*" GREAT book! I have realized that I have been doing a few things wrong, which could be a reason for some of her set backs. It has given me a better understanding of Zoey's behavior. I will definitely try recommendation from the book.

Day 14

Today it was pretty quite in my house. It was a good relaxed day. Zoey was playful with me and Diesel but growled at my husband anytime he passed by.


----------



## GoldenLove (Dec 3, 2010)

maria v said:


> I would at least get a consultation sooner than later.
> She looks adorable!


I agree! it needs to be soon.


----------



## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

hi there.
i don't come around the forum often, but your thread is pulling on my heartstrings...

is zoey a rescue for a shelter/rescue group or is she from a breeder? i think you're really really trying and you sound like an amazing woman/mom/dog owner but honestly this doesn't sound like a good match and you are so not a failure!

i have a shyer havanese, but she has never snapped at anyone ever. she does pout/hide in her safe spot aka crate on occasion, but for the most part she's a happy havanese who adores the chaos of my household and our kids-ages 6 and ten respectfully. 

my mom on the other hand just added a two year old havanese from a great breeder to her house and she is a hoot! she absolutely loves everyone and is not at all fearful of noise or new people. she has a solid, stable personality. 

i got my havanese at six months old, and my mom got her dog at two years, so honestly it's not because you got an older dog...i think this little cutie just has some major fear issues and it would be really terrible if one of your darling children ended up bitten badly.


----------



## havahop (Jul 24, 2010)

I tend to agree with Posh's mom, Zoey may not be a good fit for such an active household. Some dogs are better suited to a quiet house of adults. In the meantime please be watchful that she does not bite one of your children or a guest out of pure fear. One thing I would teach her is the word "pet". I taught me little hav this command and I teach it to all my fosters. It's a command to let them know that someone is going to be reaching down to pet them. I will just say "Lexi pet" and she sits to be petted. Otherwise her tail goes down, she will shy away and back up when someone bends to pet her. This might help Zoey not be so fearful of someone trying to pet her, especially the children. I simply would scratch at her chin and say pet and then treat her when she didn't move away. After this was established, I moved on to her neck and then the top of her head, where most young children automatically go for. Lexi is almost 4 now and when a young child wants to pet her I will tell them to give her the command. Works like a charm. Be assured you are doing a great job with Zoey and it does seem like it's one step forward and two back. It takes a lot of time to gain the trust of a shy dog. I hope this works out for your family and Zoey because as you know from fostering, it's a wonderful feeling when you can transform these little guys into confident, well adjusted pets. My prayers are with you all.


----------



## GoldenLove (Dec 3, 2010)

Thank yall so much for all the advice. I haven't been logging the past few days. I have been feeling kinda down about this. I talked to my vet today about everything, and she told me pretty much the same thing yall said. I was told having a fear biter is the hardest to overcome and still may never be 100% trustworthy. She told me it may be in Zoeys best interest to be in a quieter home


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Just saw this post now. Your dog is very workable. I definitely think a good trainer can help immensely. You just need the right info. If you'd like help finding a trainer , email me privately. Good trainers do not need to charge $200 dollars an hour. A $100 yes. It's critical to get a good one. 95 percent of dogs bite out of fear. You simply have to get your dogs trust.


----------



## GoldenLove (Dec 3, 2010)

*update*

Hi, I wanted to update everyone. I have been talking with a trainer. We scheduled and appointment for him to to come to our home on Saturday. I will let yall know how that goes.


----------



## Pipersmom (Jul 27, 2009)

that picture is SO cute! 

I hope the trainer can help you help her. You've been working so hard.


----------



## GoldenLove (Dec 3, 2010)

Thanks, I hope he can help. I cant wait till Saturday. I really want to see what his prospective is on everything.


----------



## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I have my fingers and toes crossed for you. I so hope this works out. She is such a cutie. I'll be thinking of you till we hear the results of the meeting with the trainer.


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

GoldenLove said:


> Hi, I wanted to update everyone. I have been talking with a trainer. We scheduled and appointment for him to to come to our home on Saturday. I will let yall know how that goes.


Yeah hi again Jennifer, I thought that Gallivan would prefer to come to your place. Do keep us posted. Good stuff.


----------



## GoldenLove (Dec 3, 2010)

Hi everyone, I did meet with the trainer Saturday. It wasn't at all what I expected. It was more like just a counseling session. We sat at my kitchen table for 2 hours talking. I understand he didn't want to approach her because he didn't want to scare her, but I thought he would attempt to in order to see her reaction. idk

He did throw some treats out to see if she would come out of her little corner and she did but she wouldn't come within 4-5 feet. He had his back turned and when he said her name she took off running. 

He said that happy go lucky dog is in her, but it will take time and patience. He suggested that I try DAP dog appeasement pheromone or talk to my vet about Prozac. Also recommended that when company comes over to put her in a quite place..out of line of site. I was told everything I am doing is great and I'm on the right track. I asked about a training class in order to try and socialize her but he said it would be to overwhelming for her.


----------



## Pipersmom (Jul 27, 2009)

Did he have any practical advice for you or just to continue what you are currently doing and medication? You would think there's a trainer that could actually work one on one with her. I've seen Victoria Stillwell's show where she's had sucess with very fearful dogs.

I don't remember what her background is. Is she from an abuse situation? It sounds like her fear is extreme.

You are a good person for taking this on, this poor baby really needs your help.


----------



## GoldenLove (Dec 3, 2010)

No practical advice, just continue what I'm doing. I love Victoria's shows. By watching her shows is what gave me the idea for the touch command, and Zoey is catching on to that. I dont know her full background but something has traumatized her.


----------



## Pipersmom (Jul 27, 2009)

I was hoping you'd get some ideas on how to make this easier on you and her. I figured the trainer would work one on one with her but at least you know you are on the right track, doing the right things.

She's in the best place she can be, a loving home. I'm sure she'll come to feel safe and things will get better.


----------



## GoldenLove (Dec 3, 2010)

I was really hoping for more one on one. I guess my expectations were to high. I'm trying my best. She has her good moments, but she did snap at my nephew this morning. Sometimes I feel hopeless and at times I see hope......


----------

