# Help. Should we return?



## Cindyma (Sep 7, 2013)

We picked up our 7 month old pup from a breeder. We were initially worried as he growled at me for a long time as we were getting to know him. My husband carried him home and we thought all was fine. However, he does still growl at me occasionally, and has already tried to bite our other older dog while all of us were sitting and watching TV. Our breeder is willing to switch him out for another younger puppy as she insists this is so rare and wants us to love the breed as much as she does. Any suggestions?


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Cindyma said:


> We picked up our 7 month old pup from a breeder. We were initially worried as he growled at me for a long time as we were getting to know him. My husband carried him home and we thought all was fine. However, he does still growl at me occasionally, and has already tried to bite our other older dog while all of us were sitting and watching TV. Our breeder is willing to switch him out for another younger puppy as she insists this is so rare and wants us to love the breed as much as she does. Any suggestions?


I'm not qualified to answer your question, but am wondering why your breeder hadn't already sold the puppy before 7 months? Or was it that you'd chosen him but couldn't take him till now? My worry would be that so much of his early experience will have been with the breeder, and unless you know how much time was spent socialising him and all the other things that need doing in the early windows of training/socialising opportunity it's difficult to understand what might be causing any behavioural issues. You should be able to talk to the breeder about all of this - is she/he easy to discuss things with? This sort of thing is exactly why it is important to have a good relationship with your breeder - I do hope you have, and can ask a lot of questions? How is he with other people/dogs? By 7 months he will need to have been really well socialised or you have a problem on your hands - not an insoluble one, but potential hard work. Or have I misunderstood your story, and you've had him for some time already?


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## Cindyma (Sep 7, 2013)

Thanks for you quick response. Here is the story. The breeder sold Mango and his sister to an older women who had the dogs for 3 months. The new owner then got a full time job, couldn't keep them and returned them to the breeder, where he remained in a great outdoor setting with 10 other Havanese puppies and adults. We really have no idea what happened during those few months with the older woman.
The breeder is in contact with us daily, and is willing to do whatever we want. 
Another situation is, Mango has bonded so closely in 3 days to my husband, I am wondering if he is trying to bite/growl at me thinking he is protecting my husband. We really want to keep him, but certainly don't want to have an unsocial dog.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Bother, I wrote a long reply to you, stopped to try and find your profile and see where you lived (and your name! sorry, don't know it!) and lost the reply! Hope it didn't end up attached to some other thread!! Take two:

The gist, anyway, was that I'm sure there will be others with more knowledge and advice to give, but it seems to me that you really need some professional help - it would be tragic to have to give up on your puppy before finding out what can be done. Poor little thing, he's been handed to and fro already, and that alone could be the cause of behavioural problems; OR it could be something more serious. At least you are in touch with the breeder - might she be able to talk to the first owner? I can't see why, if the question is put in a non-confrontational or accusatory way, she shouldn't be able to elicit some information and find out if something DID happen to him? I do hope you manage to find some help - you don't say where you live, but if you did, then perhaps others on this forum might know of local recommendations for a good animal behaviourist? It would be SO worth it if your puppy could be rescued from behaviour that might end in your having to take him back to the breeder for a second time. Good luck! Keep us posted.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

The whole thing sounds bad to me. WHY would any reputable breeder be keeping Havanese in an outdoor setting?!?!? At 7 months, the strongest period for good socialization is long past. Not to say he can't get better, but he may never be the outgoing, friendly dog that a Havanese properly socialized from a young age would be.

Honestly, I would take him back. My first, gut, reaction is that you should just ask for your money back. If that's not possible, I'd at least get a MUCH younger puppy from the breeder. 7-8 WEEKS, if she's not going to socialize her dogs properly, and letting them run with a group of other dogs outdoors is NOT proper socialization.

Sorry to sound harsh, but this sounds like a back yard breeder situation, and one where you could end up committing to 15 or more years with a dog that has a less-than-optimal disposition. I know your husband has started to get attached to this puppy, but EVERY puppy is cute. How much more heartbreaking would it be to have to get rid of him in 6 months because he is snapping at children who visit you?


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Sadly, I think you are probably right, Karen. It's not a good start. I just worry about that poor puppy and what will become of it....


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> Sadly, I think you are probably right, Karen. It's not a good start. I just worry about that poor puppy and what will become of it....


I know, but that's a project for someone who KNOWINGLY decides on a rehab, not for someone who is looking for their first, sweet, Havanese puppy. That puppy is going to take a LOT of work, and will probably never be a great representative of the breed. And it's NOT just the fault of the person who first bought him... The breeder has had him for 4 of his 7 months. What has SHE done to rectify the situation? It sounds like not much, other than throwing him into an outside run with a bunch of other dogs.


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## tra_po (Aug 14, 2013)

This must be so tough. I hate the thought of the puppy being passed around (therefore perpetuating if not worsening whatever problems he has) but you have to look out for you and your family. You could give it some time and get a professional to help but there would still be no guarantees. I'm so sorry. I wish you strength in making the right decision for you.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

You are, of course, completely right, Karen. Cindyma, you are new to this site, and Karen is one of the wisest people on it, in my experience, so I really think you should take her advice seriously, no matter how awful the immediate outcome might seem. It could potentially be far more awful down the line.


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## Cindyma (Sep 7, 2013)

Oh my. You are all talking us into returning the puppy to the breeder who is willing to give us our money back. My husband is already so attached to Mango, however, I am the real dog lover and for some reason I have no feeling for this new puppy. Though I am sad for the return, I know that we will be able to find a better match soon. 
Thanks for everyones advice.
Cindy


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

It's always tough but you have to do the right thing for you because that will be best for mango too. Especially with an older dog, it may be wise to get a young puppy so they can bond together. I have an older dog and got a young hav puppy. They get along great! (note that it takes about a week). Your breeder sounds like she cares and will find him a good home.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Cindyma said:


> Oh my. You are all talking us into returning the puppy to the breeder who is willing to give us our money back. My husband is already so attached to Mango, however, I am the real dog lover and for some reason I have no feeling for this new puppy. Though I am sad for the return, I know that we will be able to find a better match soon.
> Thanks for everyones advice.
> Cindy


I REALLY think you are doing the right thing. Your husband is getting attached to a cute little puppy, but it has only been a few days. He will get attached to a new puppy too. Especially if he's not the "dog lover" in the family, if this pup's behaviors become worse (as they very well could) HE will be the one who will have a hard time accepting that poor behavior.

Just make sure that the next breeder is a reputable one! Puppies should be raise INDOORS, and socialized from birth. It is, of course, fine for them to enjoy periods of outdoor play in good weather, but Havanese are a toy, companion breed and should be mainly house pets.

You want a puppy whose parents are both fully heath TESTED (not a "vet check"!) and free of genetic disease. And then you want to get your puppy between 8-12 weeks of age. If the the breeder is doing a good job socializing the puppies, it's fine to go toward the older end of this range. If you have ANY questions about how much socialization the puppy is getting in the breeder's home, make sure you get that puppy at 8 weeks!!! (better yet, find another breeder!!!)

Best of luck to you, and if you want to ask questions about a potential breeder before committing to them, feel free to ask here on the forum. Many of our members can tell you experiences, good and bad, that they have had with various breeders. At very least, if no one knows the breeder, we can help you assess their web site and determine if there are "red flags" to be concerned about, or specific questions that you will need to ask the breeder.


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Cindyma said:


> Oh my. You are all talking us into returning the puppy to the breeder who is willing to give us our money back. My husband is already so attached to Mangfamily'sever, I am the real dog lover and for some reason I have no feeling for this new puppy. Though I am sad for the return, I know that we will be able to find a better match soon.
> Thanks for everyones advice.
> Cindy


It's a hard place none of us would want to be in, but oftentimes the cliche "go with your gut" does have merit. No one wants to return a puppy, but you have to put you and your family's needs first. You wouldn't want to take on too much dog than you're able to, and it sounds like the puppy already has the potential to create a rift in your marriage. Breeder made a bad call by letting an already returned dog live in an outdoor run with other dogs - the puppy is now acting like a feral dog, not a rambunctious adolescent.


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## misstray (Feb 6, 2011)

I would not want to get a pup from a breeder who was kenneling the dogs outside as this makes me think they are only being minimally socialized. As hard as it is, I think getting a pup from a different breeder would be the way to go.

Here's a good link (from the forum) to help you know what to look for.

http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=16008


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## jderock (Sep 9, 2013)

*Charlie D.*

I am a new member so this might have already been suggested but have you tried a trainer whom would come to your home?


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Cindyma said:


> Thanks for you quick response. Here is the story. The breeder sold Mango and his sister to an older women who had the dogs for 3 months. The new owner then got a full time job, couldn't keep them and returned them to the breeder, where he remained in a great outdoor setting with 10 other Havanese puppies and adults. We really have no idea what happened during those few months with the older woman.
> The breeder is in contact with us daily, and is willing to do whatever we want.
> Another situation is, Mango has bonded so closely in 3 days to my husband, I am wondering if he is trying to bite/growl at me thinking he is protecting my husband. We really want to keep him, but certainly don't want to have an unsocial dog.


 Do you feed the pup? His home at the breeders sounds sorta weird an outdoor setting? I would try spending more one on one time with Mango. Do you have a picture? You have more of a rescue situation and that takes time to make it a perfect situation. Poor Mongo spent 7 mo with his sister and was separated that is sad.


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## Cindyma (Sep 7, 2013)

You all have been great in responding so quickly. We are returning the puppy to the breeder this afternoon((


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Be strong - you didn't mess up. The right pup is out there for you. Keep us posted.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

I just read the whole trend thats a hard decision. I'm glad the breeder is willing to give your money back. It may take time to find a new breeder but Havanese can live a long life so its worth the wait for a good healthy breed dog.Look to see if there are any Havanese clubs in your area. Write the club and they can help you find good breeders.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Cindyma said:


> You all have been great in responding so quickly. We are returning the puppy to the breeder this afternoon((


Good for you. Look at it this way. If you wanted to "rescue" a dog in need, you could go to a shelter, and get one who really needs a home for a LOT less money!


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## Miss Paige (Apr 4, 2008)

Or go to a Rescue group, HRI has dogs that are living IN foster homes where they are loved & well cared for, they may not be a puppy but they will love you & give you years of fun & joy.


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## jmombo (Jul 7, 2013)

Oh, this just makes me sad. I'm so sorry that you have to make such a difficult decision and sad for poor Mango too. The idea that a breeder is keeping the havs outside (whether a nice area or not) doesn't sound right to me. I don't like to pass judgement on other people, but I really don't like when I hear of any dog owners forcing their dogs to live their lives outdoors. That may be how pack dogs live in the wild, but our pets are far from wild animals and I find the practice to be neglectful and cruel. Our Havs (like our children) soak up affection and thrive on our attention. Honestly, I think all dogs do. They need both of these things to grow strong, healthy emotional attachments and understanding. They need everyday contact with us, and to live among us, in order to be comfortable in a family setting. It sounds like your pup may have missed out on that opportunity and that really is sad... Perhaps that is the real reason the old woman returned him to the breeder. Perhaps she faced the same struggle and decision that you are now. I hope that your next puppy experience is a happy one and that Mango is able to find the home that is right for him. These Havs are such an incredible blessing!!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

I'm so very sorry, Cindyma, but agree with others that you are doing the right thing. And as has already been said, be strong. I'm sure we all feel for you, and wish you well, it's a horrible thing to have to do and very, very sad. Know that you have a lot of support from this forum - I'm relatively new here, and everyone has been amazingly helpful on the minor things for which I have sought advice and support; I know they will be even more supportive on something so big. Please do tell us how you are, and let us know when you begin to find a way towards the right Havanese for you and your family. You've made a brave decision.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Thinking of you, Cindyma, and hoping you are alright.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

jmombo said:


> Oh, this just makes me sad. I'm so sorry that you have to make such a difficult decision and sad for poor Mango too. The idea that a breeder is keeping the havs outside (whether a nice area or not) doesn't sound right to me. I don't like to pass judgement on other people, but I really don't like when I hear of any dog owners forcing their dogs to live their lives outdoors. That may be how pack dogs live in the wild, but our pets are far from wild animals and I find the practice to be neglectful and cruel. Our Havs (like our children) soak up affection and thrive on our attention. Honestly, I think all dogs do. They need both of these things to grow strong, healthy emotional attachments and understanding. They need everyday contact with us, and to live among us, in order to be comfortable in a family setting. It sounds like your pup may have missed out on that opportunity and that really is sad... Perhaps that is the real reason the old woman returned him to the breeder. Perhaps she faced the same struggle and decision that you are now. I hope that your next puppy experience is a happy one and that Mango is able to find the home that is right for him. These Havs are such an incredible blessing!!


 You are so right . I hope if she replaces Mango that she gets a 7 to 8 week old so the baby can have what it needs.Maddie was probably from the same situation the breeder had a barn that I didn't even think to ask if I could go look. All the pups were outside when I went to pick her out. I was lucky she was released to me at 8 weeks. I really wish Mango could just go to a rescue home along with his sister.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Suzi said:


> You are so right . I hope if she replaces Mango that she gets a 7 to 8 week old so the baby can have what it needs.Maddie was probably from the same situation the breeder had a barn that I didn't even think to ask if I could go look. All the pups were outside when I went to pick her out. I was lucky she was released to me at 8 weeks. I really wish Mango could just go to a rescue home along with his sister.


Maybe it's different in the States, but here (in the UK) there is, at least as far as I have experienced, a strong lobby that advocates in SMALL breeds acquiring a puppy at 12 weeks of age. My Coton breeder will absolutely NOT let a puppy go until it is 12 weeks old. I think my Havanese breeder would probably have let Cuba come to me at 10 weeks (not entirely sure - I collected her at 12 weeks), but was happy with the 12 weeks pick up. I think there are arguments for and against - a pup that stays with its mother and siblings for longer learns some things that can only be learnt in that very specific environment. Are we sure that we are doing them a favour removing them from that learning experience to the possible solitary existence (canine-company-wise) with us? Or if we have dogs already, whether that's as good/better/worse than their mother/siblings? It is SO complicated!!! On the other side of the coin, if we DO decide to pick them up later, at 12 weeks, it then depends on the breeder to make sure that the pup has opportunities for socialising during a very small window where socialising is so important. I know my Coton breeder used to take the puppies to a local school (carried, because not fully vaccinated), and she also bred Bracco Italianos, so they met a much larger breed, had children of her own who handled the pups regularly, etc etc....I don't, in any case, really understand why small breeds should necessarily be thought of as different from larger breeds in this respect?? Reading the many threads I've now read on this forum, there are obviously all sorts of different stories and who knows what is the very best - there are, as ever, so many variables - a perfect owner would be better off having the puppy from a younger age if from a not perfect breeder; vice versa would suggest the opposite; and all shades in between. All I do hope is that Mango finds the right home if possible. And that Cindyma, you keep coming back to this forum. It has good people, good advice, kindness, different opinions, different perspectives, generosity of spirit and much wisdom. Don't disappear. Tell us how you are.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

A while has passed, and I wondered how you were doing, CindyMa? Maybe the whole experience has been so awful that you haven't been able to face coming back to this forum. But if you do, I'm sure I'm not alone in hoping to hear how you are, and in wishing you well.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Lalla said:


> Maybe it's different in the States, but here (in the UK) there is, at least as far as I have experienced, a strong lobby that advocates in SMALL breeds acquiring a puppy at 12 weeks of age. My Coton breeder will absolutely NOT let a puppy go until it is 12 weeks old. I think my Havanese breeder would probably have let Cuba come to me at 10 weeks (not entirely sure - I collected her at 12 weeks), but was happy with the 12 weeks pick up. I think there are arguments for and against - a pup that stays with its mother and siblings for longer learns some things that can only be learnt in that very specific environment. Are we sure that we are doing them a favour removing them from that learning experience to the possible solitary existence (canine-company-wise) with us? Or if we have dogs already, whether that's as good/better/worse than their mother/siblings? It is SO complicated!!! On the other side of the coin, if we DO decide to pick them up later, at 12 weeks, it then depends on the breeder to make sure that the pup has opportunities for socialising during a very small window where socialising is so important. I know my Coton breeder used to take the puppies to a local school (carried, because not fully vaccinated), and she also bred Bracco Italianos, so they met a much larger breed, had children of her own who handled the pups regularly, etc etc....I don't, in any case, really understand why small breeds should necessarily be thought of as different from larger breeds in this respect?? Reading the many threads I've now read on this forum, there are obviously all sorts of different stories and who knows what is the very best - there are, as ever, so many variables - a perfect owner would be better off having the puppy from a younger age if from a not perfect breeder; vice versa would suggest the opposite; and all shades in between. All I do hope is that Mango finds the right home if possible. And that Cindyma, you keep coming back to this forum. It has good people, good advice, kindness, different opinions, different perspectives, generosity of spirit and much wisdom. Don't disappear. Tell us how you are.


 I was just saying when they are in a bad situation its better for the puppy to leave early.I think with a good breeder who socializes and prepares the puppy's for a new home its better to wait. IMO


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