# Standard weight of Havanese?



## Luciledodd

I am not trying to start another argument about reputable breeders, etc. But I have a question that bugs me. I know that the weight standard has been taken off of the havanese as of 2001. Before that it was 10-13lbs. Height standards have stayed the same. So, my question is, Do the 16-20 lb havanese meet the standard and do breeders take size into consideration? Rosie is little 8.5 lbs and I was told when I bought her that she would be to small to show or breed. Now I know that the puppy mills and hobby breeders are turning out tiny puppies, because obviously the public perceives the tiny ones as the one they want. I have had Yorkie owners brag about their 3 lb adult dog. But I am not talking about those people. Do the higher weight dogs come from the smaller lines? Is it a genetic thing.

On the topic of Rosie, She was at 9.5 lbs at the beginning of summer and I thought that she would probably put on an additional few ounces. Yet when I weighed her on the postal scales last week, I was shocked at the 8.5 lbs. She doesn't feel thin, and is full of energy. Course she took a steroid for a month in March due to the kennel cough and that may have been the reason she gained up the extra pound. The only reason I weighed her was because my son wants to get a dog for his girls and looked at Rosie and said that he wanted a little dog. He thought she would be over 16 lb. Lots of hair and it is deceiving.


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## Thumper

Gucci's weight has bounced between 8.5-10.5 lbs and she seems in range of the breed...she was the *runt* of the litter, but is an alpha anyways..her weight doesn't effect her 'tude, so to speak, I'm not sure how often or how the information the HCA acquires to determines/re-evaluates the standard, maybe they have something on their website, or you can email them and ask..but I do know there are plenty of havs that go over the standard, as pets anyways. 

Havanese are 'sturdy' dogs, despite what the scale says, My girl will take on a 30 lb and think she is bigger than it is, lol...They can hold their own for a small breed,

IDK, I would think in the summer months, they are more active (walks, playing outside, etc and just in general sometimes the heat surpresses my appetite, so maybe it works that way for them)

As long as the vet says they are healthy and they are behaving healthy at 8.5, I don't think you have anything to worry about.


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## krandall

Kodi comes from two parents who are right in the middle of the size range... 11lbs and 12 lbs. And he ended up at 16.7 lbs. So it seems that smaller dogs CAN have bigger offspring at times. He's (just) over height too, though, at 11 1/4"

As far as the small ones are concerned, there is a person on the forum who has a bitch who is around 6 lbs and recently finished, so some judges don't seem to penalize very small Havs. I haven't been to many shows, but at the shows I've been to, there haven't been any as big (or nearly as big) as Kodi, so it SEEMS to me the fashion is for dogs on the smaller end of the standard. That said, when I've been at Hav play dates, there are PLENTY of pet Havs that are as big as Kodi or bigger.


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## pjewel

I haven't weighed any of my guys lately but Bailey is definitely the blimp of the crowd. He's bigger in every way, but he also has "big" hair. Milo is still more on the delicate side, though he gained a little after his neutering. Seems to have lost it by now. Ruby also remains a delicate, if deadly little girl.


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## hartman studio

Cocotini is 8.5 pounds, so she is little. However, the standard doesn't use weight,but size. She actually does meet standard at 8 and 1/2 inches tall-although preferred height starts at 9 inches.


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## Kathie

Abby was 7.3 when we got her at 8 mos. and was still the same a year later. Now, a little over a year after that and me loosening the "snack limit" she is 8 lbs. I do think she is a little smaller boned than the average Hav, though. Our vet said she is on the thin side but is healthy and fine. I wanted a smaller dog so I'm not complaining! When I was reading up on the breed I had read that they averaged 8 - 14 lbs. but evidently that has changed since then. Now, there is only a height standard. I think Abby is at the lower end of that standard, too. She is just a petite little girl and of course we think she is perfect!


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## LuckyOne

I don't really know. Einstein was 12.9 and Watson was 13.2 at the vet yesterday. They have both lost about a half pound over this summer. The vet says they are at a perfect weight under all that fur. It's so funny when someone is over after I give them a bath. They cant believe they shrink to half their dry size. LoL


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## galaxie

Just like in humans, it depends on how the genes combine. Parents and grandparents can be on the smaller size and yet there might be a puppy or a number of puppies in a litter that end up being much larger. This is probably the case when it comes to Kodi.

Think about when you meet a couple and their young son who towers over his dad, or daughter who towers over her mom!


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## lfung5

My Bella is 7 lbs on a good day but meet the standard height at 8.5 inches.
Scudder is 16.5 lbs but meets the standard at 10 inches tall. He is not long either. He's just stocky.
Fred is 15.5 lbs and just over the standard in height.

Scudder and Fred both came from average size parents.


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## Mojo's Mom

Mojo came from parents of about 10 pounds each, and the breeder said Mojo's parents typically produced puppies about that size. Mo is 16 pounds, however.

Of course, the breeder also said her breed lines typically were finished growing at about 6 months, but Mojo continued to grow until he was a year old.

Some of the original questions asked here have not yet been answered. Can any of the breeders or show people answer the question of whether or not the 16 to 20 pound dogs are ever considered breed standard? And if they are, that would mean they meet the height limit, so are they:
1) Heavier boned
2) Longer, or
3) More muscular?

In other words, if one dog is 11 inches tall and 10 pounds, what makes an 11 inch tall dog 16 pounds? I'm assuming that both dogs are fit and not fat.


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## irnfit

Shelby is 13 lbs and she will be 4 yrs old in Nov. She is a perfect weight for her frame.

Kodi is my big boy at 17 lbs, but he is not fat. He is taller than Shelby, so I think it is just that he has a different body type. I have been weaning them off the Little Cesar. Instead of a 1/2 a LC each per meal, they are down to 1/4 each. I would like to phase it out completely and just give them kibble and some homecooked food.


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## Eva

Todd was just about 14lbs the last time that he was weighed but it's been awhile so he may be a little heavier now?


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## motherslittlehelper

Holy cow - Just had Augie in to the vet for his Bordatella (am registering him for obedience and it is required for that) and had him weighed, just because. He has gained a little over a pound since his neuter in Feb, I believe it was. It was such a rainy spring that we weren't walking as much as we should have been (I wish I could say I ONLY gained a pound, but I can't  ) He is now a little past 13 pounds, where he had been around 12. Guess we had better pick up our walking a bit, though we have been doing much better lately with it.


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang

Luciledodd said:


> ...Do the 16-20 lb havanese meet the standard and do breeders take size into consideration?...Do the higher weight dogs come from the smaller lines? Is it a genetic thing...





Mojo's Mom said:


> ...Can any of the breeders or show people answer the question of whether or not the 16 to 20 pound dogs are ever considered breed standard? And if they are, that would mean they meet the height limit, so are they:
> 1) Heavier boned
> 2) Longer, or
> 3) More muscular?
> 
> In other words, if one dog is 11 inches tall and 10 pounds, what makes an 11 inch tall dog 16 pounds? I'm assuming that both dogs are fit and not fat.


These are very good questions...any of the breeders on here care to weigh in with input? (Pun intended) I would love to know the answers, too.


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## Luciledodd

There is a length standard too isn't there?


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## BeverlyA

There is not a length standard. "Rectangular body, slightly longer than tall."

Beverly


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## Narwyn

As I recall (and it was years ago and I was younger then... lol) weight was removed from the standard because it's so easy to manipulate. Fatten them up, slim them down, and then you can make them weight what you want; the emphasis, as said, was making sure dogs were shown at a healthy weight. The counter-argument is that, well, it's easy enough to tell if a dog is fat or thin, and a weight gives you an idea of what the build should be.

Last year, I finished an absolutely beautiful little girl who was 8 3/4" tall and weighs in around 7-8 pounds. Totally within standard, though outside the preferred range. A few years ago, I finished a lovely chocolate boy who was 11 1/4" tall and around 15 pounds. Totally within standard, though outside the preferred range.

Length and substance are the major contributes to the huge weight discrepancy. Here is the quote from the standard:



> The height range is from 8½ to 11½ inches, with the ideal being between 9 and 10½ inches, measured at the withers, and is slightly less than the length from point of shoulder to point of buttocks, creating a rectangular outline rather than a square one. The Havanese is a sturdy little dog, and should never appear fragile. A coarse dog with excessive bone is likewise contrary to type and therefore equally undesirable.


I think it's a bit contradictory to describe a dog as "slightly longer than tall" AND "rectangular" - these, IMO, are pretty different things. So, there's room for some interpretation there, whether you're looking for a dog who technically measures off-square, or a dog who really looks like a rectangle.

The other thing is substance. Some of the Havs have small front legs (Clover is one) and are sort of petite over all, and some of them have tree trunks growing down off their chests. Some have big fore chests (like a bowling ball got dropped in their shoulders) and some have a more slim, narrow build.

A big-chested, big-boned, and longer 10" dog could weight 15 pounds. A more narrow, smaller boned, shorter-backed 10" dog could weight 10 pounds. A moderately chested, moderately boned, slightly long 10" dog will probably weight 11-12. Etc. Standards are always open to interpretation, and that's why you see this variety.

Clover is over sized at 11 3/4" (according to his AKC agility height card), and falls closer to "slightly longer than tall" versus rectangular, but at 12 pounds was pretty small at the play date next to Karen's delightful Kodi, who is technically a half inch shorter!

The standard makes it clear that these are moderately sized dogs. As I see it, according to our standard, you should never put your hands on one and think "wow, they seem fragile" or "wow, that is some serious substance." They are not Italian Greyhounds nor Pugs, so they shouldn't feel like them.

But that's just for the "ideal" - I know the small girl I finished was very fin and easy to tote around, and the bigger guy would have been great to run agility with because he could really run. Breeders should breed for healthy dogs who meet the standard, but they all make fun pets, it's just a matter of what you were looking for.

Height and substance comes from many generations back. Unfortunately I see a lot of breeders who combine a bigger dog to a smaller dog; they then get some big, some small puppies - nature doesn't average out quite so neatly as we would hope! What you really need to do (with everything, not just height) is breed back to the ideal every time, so you fill your pedigree with what's correct and are more likely to see it in the future generations.


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## krandall

Narwyn said:


> Clover is over sized at 11 3/4" (according to his AKC agility height card), and falls closer to "slightly longer than tall" versus rectangular, but at 12 pounds was pretty small at the play date next to Karen's delightful Kodi, who is technically a half inch shorter!
> 
> The standard makes it clear that these are moderately sized dogs. As I see it, according to our standard, you should never put your hands on one and think "wow, they seem fragile" or "wow, that is some serious substance." They are not Italian Greyhounds nor Pugs, so they shouldn't feel like them.
> 
> But that's just for the "ideal" - I know the small girl I finished was very fin and easy to tote around, and the bigger guy would have been great to run agility with because he could really run. Breeders should breed for healthy dogs who meet the standard, but they all make fun pets, it's just a matter of what you were looking for.
> 
> Height and substance comes from many generations back. Unfortunately I see a lot of breeders who combine a bigger dog to a smaller dog; they then get some big, some small puppies - nature doesn't average out quite so neatly as we would hope! What you really need to do (with everything, not just height) is breed back to the ideal every time, so you fill your pedigree with what's correct and are more likely to see it in the future generations.


I'd love it if, at one of our Havablasts, some of you who are more experienced with conformation could pick out some of the (many) dogs milling around, and point out some of the strong and weak points so we could all learn more. I know what I like, but I don't know whether that's what the judges are looking for. Mary Cane was nice enough to point out a few things to me at the spring Havablast, but there's a lot more I'd like to learn.

I don't mind Kodi being a guinea pig, and I'm sure there are other pet owners who would agree too. I love Kodi just the way he is, whether he's a perfect show ring specimen or not.(he's lacking one IMPORTANT piece of anatomy for a show dog anyway!<g>)


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