# New to the Forums and Need a Reality Check



## KittehKat (Jul 26, 2011)

Hello!

I recently bought a Havanese with some special circumstances. I will admit that I am not nearly as knowledgeable as many of the people on here, and despite a lot of guidance from one of my former-breeder friends, I somehow managed to buy dog from a backyard breeder, that in retrospect is very close to a puppy-mill. I did not realize, in my ignorance, what I was doing at the time, so please forgive me. Most of the arrangements were done over the phone, so I had no idea what I was getting into until I actually pulled up at their house, and by then I just kept telling myself that my sense of "no!" was nerves. I did not realize, in my ignorance, what I was doing at the time, so please forgive me. Now I am just doing my best to deal with the after-math, so to speak. 

First off, let me just say that I ADORE my puppy. My puppy, Grover, is sweet, smart, playful, and affectionate... with me. However, he is kind of a special circumstance. The "breeders" originally adopted him out to a single male who returned him in about two weeks, siting new job/no time for the puppy. I totally understand and am happy that they took him back rather than seeing him go to a shelter. However, the more I read up on the breed and dog training in general, the more I realize that he was not socialized properly - they just let him run loose with the other dogs. 

My situation is kind of unique, as well. When I spoke to the woman on the phone originally, I explained to her that I have a four year old daughter, and that I would be living in the Arctic with the dog. We were living in very northern Ontario at the time, but my husband has now completed his training, and we are indeed in the Arctic (Cambridge Bay, NU to be specific). I asked her if the breed would be hardy enough to withstand strong winds and temperatures in the range of 60 below celcius, and she said that she had no problems getting her adult dogs to go out in -40, and that she anticipated me having no problems with him. 

Because Grover was older - 6 months-ish by the time I 'found' him on her website, and about 7.5 months before we got to pick him up - he had been discounted, despite his 'unique colouring' that she said made him more valuable, and they had him neutered and didn't require me to reimburse them. I couldn't help but thinking that this all seemed to be working out quite well - I wouldn't have to go through the teething stage (one of the benefits the breeder suggested), he was already partly house-broken (I don't mind an accident here and there, he's still practically a baby, right?) and he wouldn't be so freaked out about my 4y/o. 

Well... it all sounded good, but that's not what I got. :frusty:

My dog is terrified of my husband, and pretty much everything else. He skitters at any loud noises, hides behind my legs when anyone approaches us on our walks... the list goes on. He doesn't like any male that I've come across. I've worked very hard with him in the 2+ weeks that I've had him, and I realize OF COURSE that he is going through a lot of changes right now, and that he's going to be overwhelmed with the new life/smells/place, etc., but the more I've read on these forums and on the internet, the more I realize that I got totally duped. Excuse the expression, but this whole thing really was misrepresented to me. 

The breeder had emailed me before I even had a chance to get an internet connection (it took me three days) asking how he was on the flight, etc., and when I responded fine, but he's really skittish, etc., she responded with a rather defensive sounding email about how my husband and I weren't being "alpha" enough and how Grover would bond with us better once we were. 

I hadn't had any problems getting him to bond to me - in fact, after only an hour with me he'd started developing signs of separation anxiety that continue - and even in my email I kept saying "I know he'll grow out it, I know he's been through a lot lately, I'm sure things will improve..." but she still got all defensive, and practically blamed me for the dog's behaviour! 

I'm so sorry this is so long, but I'm kind of freaking out. Grover is a wonderful companion to me, he's finally - after, as I mentioned, a ton of work - getting used to my daughter, and will allow some other children near him and even to pet him (if I am right there), but he still skitters from my husband and tries desperately to 'escape' even a normal situation! Am I totally screwed? Is there anything I can do at this point, or is he so under-socialized that he's pretty much going to be nervous/skittish forever? I've tried to be more alpha (which is hard, because I'm not a "beta" type to begin with!), I've been very patient with him and am continuing to be patient with him, but I need a reality check from some people that know the breed better than I do. 

Can I "fix" him? Will he ever be the family dog I was told he'd be? Do I need to worry about him with my daughter? Will he ever get over his fear of my husband? 

Sorry this is so long, and thank you in advance for any and all help/advice I can get!


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

HI and :welcome: to the forum,
I'm sorry to hear you were lied to, and you aren't the first and you won't be the last that that happens to, sadly, some people are really good at lying and deceiving, don't beat yourself up for giving someone the benefit of the doubt, we've all done it at one point,I'm just sorry it had to happen in this particular situation of bringing a family pet into the home 

I honestly don't think you are screwed. I think you will have to spend alot more time and effort into training him than the average puppy parent would, but you can build his trust in your family, just takes time and a solid routine. The better and sooner you can build a routine, they start to feel comfort within that routine.

I had an incident with Gucci when she was a puppy, like 10 weeks old. She saw a wasp on the floor and went to sniff it and got bit on the nose. My husband was standing right there because he was going after the wasp the same time that she was, it just so happened she beat him there first  And he quickly got the wasp off of her and the stinger out of her nose but she was hurt, in pain and scared to death of him for a few months  He'd come to bed and she'd crawl on my chest and or behind me to be far from him. We started a routine that he would give her the 'favorite' treat every night and it came from him, and him only. (which is beef or chicken jerky) so every night he'd give her the jerky and play with her and pet her and she did eventually forget all about the fact that she was scared he'd hurt her by stinging her nose, lol..it just took awhile. But I suggest letting your DH help feed him and even start a daytime special treat from him , so he starts to expect good things from him and not bad. It sounds like he was abused by a man or saw a man abuse someone and is frightened.

I know you'll get lots more helpful tips and ideas on here from others who've dealt with fearful dogs. Hang in there.

And as for the cold temperature, you could look into building a warm fur coat around a harness and have it custom made, or some other type of synthetic coat that would help keep him warm. I"m not sure the fur of a Havanese is really warm like a st. bernard or wolf dog, Havanese are from tropical warm climates and I"m not sure why she would tell you that, it sounds a bit like more BS to me. 

Kara


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## KittehKat (Jul 26, 2011)

Thank you SO MUCH for responding so quickly - I've been refreshing the page every five minutes in my anxiety LOL 

I'm glad to hear I'm not totally screwed. I've been working with him and I have no problem putting in a LOT of work, I just wanted to hear someone tell me it'd be worth it. I am already working on a little parka for him (I've done the measurements and got the fabrics I need, etc) out of the same things the people make their parkas out of here, so I'm hoping that will at least keep him warm enough to go outside in the winter. 

I'm also considering getting a litter box in the house, because there will be days where it is easily 60 below with winds of at least 80km/h, and I can't imagine him giong out in that and not getting blown away (all 7 lbs of him!) regardlses of whether or not I put a parka on him!

I'll post some pics when I'm done the parka - if nothing else, he should look quite dashing! 

Also, forgot to mention, I have been trying to get DH to give him treats, etc., but once or twice he has growled at DH and had to be disciplined for it, so I think it's a two steps forward, one step back with that situation, but I will persevere and try to limit other treats he is given and make it more part of the routine! Thanks so much for the advice! (and your pooor pup, thinking Daddy stung her! Couldn't help but laugh when I read that!)


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Dont be afraid of reprimanding him for growling - he needs to understand that you guys are in charge. I would have hubby and daughter feed him, treat him, and do ALL of his needs - this way he will bond with them as well and respect them as Alphas. 

I do have a concern about the temps that you have at your home. AFter all, this was originally a tropic dog from Cuba. If you are careful to always keep a coat on him, and not let him out for prolonged times he should do good, but I strongly recommend booties for him. I personally do not use them for my 4 only because our temps in NJ vary and if it is really cold they go out and in right away. If he will be out for a long time - you might want to consider them.


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## Tessa's Mommy (May 20, 2011)

Welcome to the forum. I know you will receive lots of helpful advice. 

I also have a very shy and nervous puppy named Tessa. We also have a 5 year old male Hav named Cooper. The difference is the breeder told us that she was very shy and sumissive when we went to pick her out. We got her when she was about 4 1/2 months old. 

Tessa loves Cooper, my DH and me and is getting use to my 5 year old grandchild and our grown children who, although they don't live with us, do visit quite a lot. She is now chasing our two cats too, although they terrified her at first. We have had her about 2 months now and have gone through puppy classes also. She did not like the other dogs at the class and would not socialize with them, but that may be because they were all much larger dogs than she is. She does like my sister's five year Hav and tries to play with her all the time.

Anyway the point of my ramble is that give your puppy time and lots of patience. I don't think Tessa will ever be the outgoing, love everybody kind of dog, but she loves us and tolerates the rest of my family and that is fine with us. She also seems to be a much easier puppy than some of the other owners seem to have. So far she hasn't destroyed anything other than some paper towel. She doesn't chew on things and has only nipped a few times and then, has never drawn blood.

I sure you will get better advice than I can give you, but I thought I would share my experience with you.

On a different note, my deepest sympathy on your move to the cold North. LOL


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

At 7 1/2 months, your guy has developed a routine where he was before. His life with you is a HUGE change from living with a group of other dogs as a support network. Two weeks is really a VERY short period of time. He's just going to need a lot MORE time and patience. But if he's a typical Hav, with time and training, he will come around and be the sweet family pet you want. LOTS of people adopt Havs that have been puppy mill breeders, and even these dogs, with time and patience become wonderful pets.

The first thing I'd do is FORGET all the"alpha" nonsense. (I'm sure Dave will pipe in with several articles explaining why) Your puppy needs patience, time and training, not to be shown "who's boss". The next thing I'd do is enroll him and you in classes at a good training facility that uses positive training methods. This will do two things. It will help him in terms of socialization, and it will help YOU learn how to work with him more effectively.

As far as your husband is concerned, I'd be having your husband feed him as often as possible so that he looks to your husband as the provider of "good stuff". But I'd tell your husband not to try to push attention on him. Have him wait until the puppy chooses to come to him. That may take time, but if you force it, the puppy will just become more afraid.

Finally, if I were you and lived near the Arctic circle, I'd seriously consider introducing your pup to an indoor potty system, either a litter box, or grass mat system, or, if he's not a paper shredder, pee pads. This will make those long, cold nights much more tolerable for both of you. We live in New England, and even here, Kodi back slid in his training at the start of his first winter... He just didn't want to go out in that harsh weather. Many dogs eventually decide that they would rather go only outside and not use an indoor potty, but at least they understand what it is, and know it's available in emergencies. 

For


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KittehKat said:


> Also, forgot to mention, I have been trying to get DH to give him treats, etc., but once or twice he has growled at DH and had to be disciplined for it, so I think it's a two steps forward, one step back with that situation, but I will persevere and try to limit other treats he is given and make it more part of the routine!


I would NOT "discipline" him for growling, other than he just doesn't get the treat if he does growl. That's why I suggested feeding him his food. That way, your husband can just put the dish on the floor, and the puppy can keep his distance until he feels more comfortable. You can also have your hubby give him treats by dropping them on the floor near him to start with, rather than trying to hand them to him.

I would limit the treats from other people until he decides that your husband is OK. You and your daughter can still give him some treats, but from the two of you, they should be training treats. They can be for doing something as simple as sitting when told.


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## jillnors2 (Apr 12, 2007)

How did you discipline him for growling?


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Welcome to the forum!!!! Your pup may seem shy now, but that maybe a bit misleading. Dogs who get taken back to the breeder sometimes have been mistreated and often it is not because the owner was doing it on purpose, sometimes it is just ignorance. I think many of us get taken in by all the media and the way they show pets is like you bring them home and it all goes together seamlessly, life is seldom that easy.

The reason I say your dog maynot be truely a shy dog is it is common for a older dog or pup to be shy of new people and surroundings. I have a shy dog, she was three when we got her from a very good breeder and it took me three months before I fully got it that she was going to need lots more work, in case your wondering I am not thick in the head and I have experience with mill dogs and problem dogs, my shy dog did not like any touch or petting she liked to be near me and would not go to anyone else. Today she is very confident in the household, I am still working with her in public places, at home she will seek attention and even from strangers.

You and your pup need an adjustment period, it will be normal at first for your dog to warm up to family members one at a time. So you are first, hubby will most probably be next, you can help it along by using a high quality very smelly treat (like chicken or beef) when you and hubby are watching tv put the treat at first with in inches of hubby and let your pup see it and know its there, your pup will eventually go and get it after a few times move the treat to by his leg, then on him do not have him touch at first not until after the dog has taken the treat from him a few times, this game should not take more than a week. You are showing your dog that yummy good things come from daddy too.

I think everyone has given you some good ideas. You will need to be careful with your pup and cold weather and pee pad or box are really the way to go for winter. Just give things time and be patient. When weather is good enough do take at least one beginner class with your pup, the knowledge you gain will be so worth it.

Can't wait to see pictures!!!! Best of luck with your new family member. Also touch your dog gently and pet often.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Also I reread Karens and she said pretty much the same thing about the treats. One more thing when your dog growls just say NO firmly.


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## KittehKat (Jul 26, 2011)

Wow, lots of advice! 

First of all, thanks to everyone who has responded. I am so grateful that I found this forum and so many well-read/researched people who know what to do with this breed! 

Secondly, I should probably set out my own 'beliefs' as I'm noticing some conflicting advice here, and you probably all need to know what kind of owner I am. 

So far it seems that I am somewhat treading down the middle of the road. I definitely discipline him for growling, either at my own child, children that come in to play with her, myself, or at my husband. I don't discipline him for growling at other dogs, because they have a totally different communication system. I just try to provide support and remind him to be polite, though so far that has only happened once. On the other hand, most of the dogs here are HUGE compared to him - he is dwarfed even by the 8-week old puppies across the street! - so I can understand his hesitation towards them. I think, at his size, I'd be a little intimidated myself! 

As far as training goes, I'm on my own. Well, on my own apart from forums - YAY FORUMS! There are no dog training classes here, no trainers, no puppy kindergarten - zip. Most of the dogs here live outside, on leashes, or are sled dogs - definitely not pets in the way I would think of them! I don't believe in treat-training, because I think that the approval of his alpha pack members (me, dh, daughter) should be sufficient for him to know he's doing something right... I don't want a dog that will only respond to me if he thinks I have treats for him, and he definitely seems smart enough and strong-willed enough to make that differentiation! Some of the tricks I'm teaching him are "just for treat" tricks, and he understands that he only does them when food will be given. He WILL do his (one so far) trick for hubby, and for my daughter, and for me, and he will very carefully take the treat from whoever is offering it and scoot off to try and find a place to eat it. He already seems comfortable enough in that he has a few "favourite spots" where he'll always go - he knows which space is his, and which is not. 

On the other hand I've been very patient and slow with him as far as socialization. If kids approach (there are TONS of kids here, mostly unsupervised, and they all love puppies!) I will hold out a hand and warn them to approach slowly. At first I was picking him up when they'd come close, but now he is familiar with some of the 'regulars' and will just come and sit by/on my feet and even allow them to pet him! As I said, there is definitely some improvement in a LOT of areas, but with my DH I'm kind of worried. I have been limiting the treats DD and I give him, so that "daddy" is the bearer of all things wonderful, but it's only been a few days so we'll see how that goes long term. 

Really, I guess most of my anxiety is just pure panic. There have just been so many things come up that I was totally not expecting, but in SOOOO many ways he's such a wonderful dog. He knows his name, he comes when called, he sits fairly reliably on command (though no, not when I'm walking away from him or standing thirty feet away, I guess that's something new to work on! LOL) and today I was even able to let him off-leash (first time!) and he recalled surprisingly well! 

I definitely think he's going to need some 'help' to go outside during the winter. As I mentioned, I'm making him a parka, and I'm not sure if I can make him booties myself so I am considering ordering them. The temperatures up here really are extreme (I lived on the other half of this island for two years, so I know, at least, what to expect) and after seeing him shiver in some of the cool breezes we've had, I know he's not going to be pleased about them. I'm definitely going to start some litter box training (it's much easier to get a pan and litter here than to try and find someone who will ship up training pads, etc.) as it will be much easier on him, and yes, admittedly, on me on those freezing cold Arctic nights! 

Anyhow, much food for thought - I'll be sure to put a lot of this amazing advice into action, and I look forward to getting to know everyone as I continue on my puppy-training journey


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## KittehKat (Jul 26, 2011)

jillnors2 said:


> How did you discipline him for growling?


At first, I'd just tell him very firmly "Grover, NO!" That didn't work (shocker, he's soooo strong-willed!) and I so the growling routine now is that I grab him by the neck and put him on the floor, say firmly NO, and then picked him up and put him in his kennel.

When he growled at DH, DH was the disciplinarian, but same deal - held down, big NO, kennel.

When DH disciplined him, though, I insisted that it be DH that let him out - so he knows that Daddy may be in charge, but he's not that bad a guy. He wouldn't come out at first, and then tried to run away, but DH caught him and kept him in his lap until he calmed down and fully relaxed, even fell asleep! As soon as he let him down, Grover ran back to me, but has continued doing tricks/taking treats from DH. The ONE day he was a little more cautious around DH, but after that he went back to his old "sniff sniff, no treats, forget it" routine LOL


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## Lizzie'sMom (Oct 13, 2010)

Welcome!!! I would hesitate to use force on him when he growls. Maybe say NO firmly and place him in the crate for a minute. Forcing him to the ground seems cruel. He needs to learn that you all are safe. He has been through a lot going back to the breeder and then to you and moving. I don't potty indoors even during the coldest part of winter, but I think you should get Grover used to it. Lizzie loves winter and tolerates walks in 10 degree F weather, but any colder and I would put her booties and coat on. I would be very afraid of frostbitten paws. Muttluks are made in Canada and are on sale right now at Drs. Foster and Smith. He will certainly need a lot of play time in the house during your coldest months!!!

When you are out with him instruct the kids to let him approach them on his terms. Too many people coming towards him is scary. Lizzie LOVES kids, but she needs to approach them on her terms. You could crouch down next to Grover when kids are around and talk to them so he knows that they are safe. 

I am sure with time and patience Grover will be a great pet for your family. Would love to see pictures of him as well as where you live!!!


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## KittehKat (Jul 26, 2011)

We were instructed to be quite aggressive with him by the breeder and by another friend of mine, who is an ex-breeder, but of much bigger dogs. However, it does seem that the kenneling is more effective than the grabbing. I'm not sure I'll get a chance to test the theory, as he has not growled at anyone in days - thank goodness!

I saw the Muttluks on sale at a few of the Canadian sites I was checking out, but w/ the $30 shipping fee (regardless of how much I buy) making them myself seems a lot more attractive... plus, if I make them myself, they can match his parka, right? LOL

I definitely support him when there are kids around. Originally I'd pick him up, then crouch down. The more he gets used to the 'regulars,' the less support he needs. He is content at this point to sit on my feet and be approached slowly (I've trained the kids as well as the dog), but he is still a lot more nervous around new-new people, and I will still pick him up or crouch by him, depending on how stressed out he seems to be. 

I will see what I can do about some pics - the one of him in my avatar is the funniest so far. I'll see if I can get a few of him outside, but he's quite uninterested in sitting still for photos with so many interesting smells around


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I agree with so much here. The alpha thing is of course controversial now. I might suggest you skip the pushing him down and just wisk him to his crate with a NO growl! But if done gently I do not believe you are doing any harm. 

Having a very independent boy my self, I might suggest reconsidering the treat training just for now! Anything you can do to create a happy trusting environment between you and Grover and your family is important as you transition. An independent dog, and a possible fearful one, doesn't nessesarilly crave you or your families approval. Just something to consider. You can drop the treats once he gets it. But right now he is just a puppy figuring out a whole new gig.


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## KittehKat (Jul 26, 2011)

I certainly have no intention or desire to hurt him! I try very hard to be gentle and firm at the same time. 

He has shown that he very much enjoys MY approval, and wags happily when told "good boy" by DD or DH, but continues to be more wary of them. I am the only one who is with him all day, so it makes sense that he trusts me and knows me a lot better than the other two. Even after being disciplined, he will come to me the instant he is out of his crate seeking reassurance, cuddles, and wanting to lick me. He seems to be a nervous licker, but even that has diminished over the last couple of weeks. 

Obviously I am making progress, but it's been kind of a scary situation for me, worrying if he would become more aggressive, or even fear-biting, so forgive me if I seem a bit misled - I have literally been grasping at straws! On the plus side, my biggest fears are being put to rest after reading the responses to my post and continuing to browse the forum, and I am feeling sooo much less stressed, and like I am at least doing many things 'right' with my darling Grover


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## KittehKat (Jul 26, 2011)

I found a few pictures of the scenery around here and my little man.

Not sure how this works - I've had bad luck getting the pics to show up in here, so here's the link to the Picassa album I put them in:

I hope it works! And if not... maybe I need some advice about that, too!


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## Narwyn (Jan 24, 2010)

If you teach a dog not to growl, you will get a dog who bites without warning.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

KittehKat said:


> At first, I'd just tell him very firmly "Grover, NO!" That didn't work (shocker, he's soooo strong-willed!) and I so the growling routine now is that I grab him by the neck and put him on the floor, say firmly NO, and then picked him up and put him in his kennel.
> 
> When he growled at DH, DH was the disciplinarian, but same deal - held down, big NO, kennel.
> 
> When DH disciplined him, though, I insisted that it be DH that let him out - so he knows that Daddy may be in charge, but he's not that bad a guy. He wouldn't come out at first, and then tried to run away, but DH caught him and kept him in his lap until he calmed down and fully relaxed, even fell asleep! As soon as he let him down, Grover ran back to me, but has continued doing tricks/taking treats from DH. The ONE day he was a little more cautious around DH, but after that he went back to his old "sniff sniff, no treats, forget it" routine LOL


Sorry I don't have more time to answer here. Heading camping . Do not punish growling in any way. Forget the pinning Alpha roll stuff. If you want a dog that bites , continuing this will almost guarantee it. Back with a couple of articles in a sec.
http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/socialization-with-people

http://www.fun4fido.co.uk/blog/debunking-the-dominance-myth.html

http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/why-growl-good


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## KittehKat (Jul 26, 2011)

Well, I clearly have my homework cut out for me - I need to read these articles in more depth, and do some further research on this whole thing for myself! Thank you so much for posting those links, and I hope you enjoy your camping


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

I will pip in!

1. Grover is right at the wacky age where stuff they never reacted to or out-grew now freaks them out again. Jack started growling at the dog in the reflection again.

2. I hate treat-training but.... you have to do it at first. It is horrid but works. I cut down the treats so small that I can barely pick them up. After a couple of months, you can quickly cut back.

3. Havanese are 'soft' dogs, like Border Collies. Forcing them down or even yelling affects them terribly. You could easily create a fearful dog. The 'Turn your back', 'Ignore', or 'Timeout' works very well.

4. I live in Massachusetts. The couple days we had below zero, Jack was miserable. Their hair on their feet INSTANTLY snowball. It isn't fun to get it off. I tried 'Musher's Secret' to keep his paws from cracking. It seemed to work. Your little guy is going to need some serious booties and snowsuit. There is a great thread somewhere on the various snowsuit brands..... and a link to the wonderful lady in Turkey(?) who custom-makes gorgeous and inexpensive sweaters. It is a fun thread to read through. 

I am sure your furbaby will come around with patience and love.

ADDED: I found the website for the Turkish lady. http://www.royalfifi.net/ Lots of members have ordered from her. I plan on getting something this year since Jack has stopped growing.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Regarding the use of food for training. http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/food-critics


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

I want to see Dave's computer. His favorite sites list must be HUGE. He has an article for every question. ound: Our own personal wikipe-dave.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

morriscsps said:


> I want to see Dave's computer. His favorite sites list must be HUGE. He has an article for every question. ound: Our own personal wikipe-dave.


LOL , actually I forgot another good one on the use of food. http://www.4pawsu.com/treattraining.htm


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I did not meant to insinuate that you were hurting grover.... I believe you have his best interest at heart. just offering suggestions.


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## KittehKat (Jul 26, 2011)

Missy said:


> I did not meant to insinuate that you were hurting grover.... I believe you have his best interest at heart. just offering suggestions.


Absolutely NO offense taken, Missy! I came on here for advice, and I defer to the obviously higher experience levels on the forum! I don't like "pinning" him or "grabbing" him, but I was kind of taught that it's one of those necessary evil things about owning a dog... same as I hate yelling at my child! I'm just a softie, I guess!

That said, I'm very interested in all these new ideas I'm being presented with. I didn't know you could put a dog in time out, or ignore him to get results. I didn't realize the whole alpha dominance thing was passe, either, and I'm kind of excited about that! My instincts are to be gentle, and patient, and to get the results I want without use of excess force... but some very good sources in my life told me "get over it if you want a well-behaved dog!"

It is SUCH a relief to hear there are other ways of doing things... it might just take me a while to untrain MYSELF and to go through the articles (THANK YOU, DAVE!) and figure out what the best thing is for all of us, so that I can be as consistent as possible


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Great to hear your willingness to listen to new ideas. Actually these are not new. As much as I shouldn't generalize, the ideas about dog training are different in the North. Let's just say it's well known that the sledding dogs of the North are now always trained properly and compassionately. It's a different mindset. But if you really want to understand dog training , ignore most of the advice you might get. Being you don't have trainers nearby, all you can do is listen and learn from people here, and from some good articles. Like I mentioned I'm off camping , but now to bed., so I'll leave you with some more homework ,LOL Even thought the first article is Before You Get Your pup, It's still worth reading. Before You Get Your Puppy by Ian Dunbar http://www.siriuspup.com/pdfs/before_puppy_sirius.pdf

After You Get Your Puppy by Ian Dunbar http://www.dogstardaily.com/files/AFTER You Get Your Puppy.pdf

And here's a very important one http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance statement.pdf


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## Pooch (Nov 23, 2010)

My Fionn is 4 months old and I am a first time dog owner. Like you, I received all kinds of advice about being the alpha and him wanting to "dominate" me. 

I've done lots of reading, attended puppy classes, and have learned SO much from reading this forum. I have applied the training techniques that Dave and the others are suggesting here and Fionn is a lovely, happy, social, and confident puppy. 

I ignore him when I don't want to encourage a certain behaviour (like barking or being really hyper) and / or put him in his expen (very calmly) for time outs as necessary. One thing I learned which I do religiously is praise him when he is displaying behaviours I like and want to encourage, e.g. if he is sitting calmly just staring ahead or chewing on a toy I will give him a "good boy" with a little pet and sometimes a treat. Or, if he is looking out the window and a person or dog walks by and he stays calm and doesn't bark - BIG TREAT!! It just reinforces that "calm" behavior to him and he's really learning that. This approach feels so nice for me too - I'm in a positive mindset rather than a negative "NO" mindset. 

These guys are amazingly smart so I'm sure your fella will do just great. Keep reading and asking questions!

Jan


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## jillnors2 (Apr 12, 2007)

> If you teach a dog not to growl, you will get a dog who bites without warning.


Yes Exacty.
Dave has some great articles linked, good luck to you!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KittehKat said:


> Absolutely NO offense taken, Missy! I came on here for advice, and I defer to the obviously higher experience levels on the forum! I don't like "pinning" him or "grabbing" him, but I was kind of taught that it's one of those necessary evil things about owning a dog... same as I hate yelling at my child! I'm just a softie, I guess!
> 
> That said, I'm very interested in all these new ideas I'm being presented with. I didn't know you could put a dog in time out, or ignore him to get results. I didn't realize the whole alpha dominance thing was passe, either, and I'm kind of excited about that! My instincts are to be gentle, and patient, and to get the results I want without use of excess force... but some very good sources in my life told me "get over it if you want a well-behaved dog!"
> 
> It is SUCH a relief to hear there are other ways of doing things... it might just take me a while to untrain MYSELF and to go through the articles (THANK YOU, DAVE!) and figure out what the best thing is for all of us, so that I can be as consistent as possible


I'm SO glad to hear that you are willing to try some new training ideas. Sometimes we have people who are not. Look at what a treat trained dog can do by watching the most recent video of Kodi in the Rally section. You will see that I gave him a SMALL treat at the start line (which I didn't HAVE to do... he still would have worked for me, but as Dr. Dunbar said, we all like to get paid<g>) and then he didn't get another treat until he was out of the ring. You can't really see it, but there was another dog running his course and jumping just the other side of the wicker wall... a LOT of distraction for a young dog. But his attentions was completely on me.

Kodi is 2 years old and WAY past needing rewards when he is asked to do "normal pet behaviors" around the house. He is expected to walk nicely on leash, potty when he's told, wait and not rush the door when people are going in and out, stop barking when told... without rewards. Those are all behaviors that he knows cold, and are just part of being "the family dog". He DID get rewarded for those behaviors when he was learning them, though, then intermittently to reinforce for a time after that.

There is one behavior that I STILL regularly reinforce with a food reward, just because it is SO critical for safety, and that's the long recall. I want him to come from anywhere when I call him. He WILL do that without food, and has when I've needed to get him back to me and I didn't have any food with me, but the rewards that I give him for those recalls when we are just practicing off leash in the woods are "money in the bank" to make sure that this is always fresh in his mind.

OTOH, I am ALWAYS pushing the limits of his training for obedience and agility work. And many of the new concepts he is learning like "go outs" and "directed retrieves" are HARD. So when he is "working" he gets paid. I don't use much luring; I do clicker training instead, but one way or another food, toy and praise reinforcers are ALL powerful motivators. And part of keeping training fresh with a dog is to keep rotating through different rewards.


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## KittehKat (Jul 26, 2011)

Well, I've been reading through the posted articles and I'm feeling a little less like a newbie. I have some questions about clicker training and wonder if anyone has any good articles they'd recommend? I'm a little wary of google answers, having tried to find some answers there before and (clearly) been quite misled, so I'm hoping someone's got something for me. 

I'm definitely going to try the treat training, as soon as I finish my homework, because from what I've (now) read and what everyone is saying, it makes life so much easier as far as training is concerned. I wonder how this will work with the "Daddy, Bearer of Treats" system, though - would DH give him a particularly fantastic treat each evening (for example)? I'm imagining the "DH is okay" treat would have to be better/different than the regular training treats. I'd love to hear what you all think of that. 

In other news, Grover continues to amaze and thrill me. I've tried the ignoring technique today and it has been soooo successful with him - without me giving him any attention (positive OR negative) he calms himself down and finds something else to do, and then receives praise for redirecting himself appropriately. I can't believe how much easier this way is than the big bad NO way! Thank goodness I found these forums 

I'd also like to say - again - thank you soooo much to everyone for the support, direction, and positive reinforcement - you're obviously all very good trainers, and I clearly need more than my dog! LOL


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Yay! Glad to hear that your experiments in positive training are going so well! 

As far as clicker training is concerned, Karen Pryor is probably the best source of information. Just be aware that although clicker training is great, there are some people who feel it is the ONLY way to train... I love clicker training for some things, but there are other times that I use other positive training methods. 

CERTAINLY give clicker training a try, though, because it's pretty amazing. I had a lesson with Kodi today, where we were clicker training him for a move we need to do in Rally, where he has to go out away from me, and jump a jump, while I can't get closer than 6' away from the jump. He knows how to jump already, because he does agility too, but it's different to be in a tight heel position, then leave the handler's side, run away, jump a jump and meet back up again. He learned it in less than 10 minutes with clicker training!

As far as you husband is concerned, yes, I'd find something that Grover really, REALLY likes, like roast beef from the deli, or boiled chicken... whatever he can't resist, and make that "their special treat". In fact, just thinking about my own DH's relationship with Kodi, if you can find something your husband can eat too (like the deli meat) and have him make a HUGE big deal about what yummy stuff he's eating and THEN hand it to Grover, that could help too. Kodi is crazy about blueberries (not all dogs will be) and he goes nuts when Dave sits down with some. Dave makes noises like it's the best thing he ever tasted, and Kodi sits there looking like he's about to faint. It's really pretty funny!:biggrin1:


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

KK, these dogs are amazing. And at the risk of amorphasising... They really do seem to have more developed emotions than other dogs... They are more sensitive and a gentler touch does seem to work better. I am glad you had success today. 

I think he will warm up to DH quickly, but If you are thinking of an extra special treat that involves long contact... Take a small container, like a plastic pillbox and fill it with yogurt and freeze it. DH will hold it out and Grover will have to stand there with DH licking for a very long time.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Missy said:


> KK, these dogs are amazing. And at the risk of amorphasising... They really do seem to have more developed emotions than other dogs... They are more sensitive and a gentler touch does seem to work better. I am glad you had success today.
> 
> I think he will warm up to DH quickly, but If you are thinking of an extra special treat that involves long contact... Take a small container, like a plastic pillbox and fill it with yogurt and freeze it. DH will hold it out and Grover will have to stand there with DH licking for a very long time.


Oh, REALLY good idea, Missy!!!


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## KittehKat (Jul 26, 2011)

Wow, Karen, Kodi sounds crazy-awesome! Once I get some more bandwidth (restricted, blah) I'll have to check out some vids! I certainly don't want to use clicker training for EVERYthing (I think think the constant clicking would drive me nuts LOL) but it does seem like it has it's uses. 

I love the story about Kodi and the blueberries - I totally cracked up. Grover seems to looooove apples, so maybe I'll give that a shot. At least I know DH will eat those! 

Missy, I'm seeing what you mean about the more developed emotions... Grover is not like any dog I've ever met, but in so many ways he's exactly what I wanted. I love the idea about the yogurt, that sounds like a really good option!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Kodi likes apples too. He's a real fruit dog. Just be sure to avoid grapes and raisins... they are poisonous to dogs!

I love Kodi to pieces, but I think Most Havs could do what he does... it's just a matter of patience and training. Our agility class is a "small dog" class, and it just so happens that they are ALL Havs. And they're ALL great!


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## KittehKat (Jul 26, 2011)

Yeah, Grover loves his fruit, too. My grandmother used to have this tiny dog that loved grapes, but she'd always peel them before giving them to her, so I was really surprised when I read (before getting my little dude) about grapes being bad. 

I can't imagine how much fun an entire class of Havs would be! I'd LOVE to do agility training with Grover some time, but our plan is to live up here for... well, ever, so classes are kind of out of the question :S I still hope that we can do some of our own agility stuff, once we've got the basics down, but we'll see what the future holds! ... and how my patience holds up


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## tcollins (May 1, 2011)

Grover is so cute! And welcome to the forum! I've only been on for about 4 months, and have received great advice! I just read yyour post today-Oliver STILL is petrified of men! It took him a while to get used to my husband. We had him be the "treat guy" and he just kept trying, but not too hard to get Oliver's affection. Now Oliver LOVES Rick, but he's still my puppy! You will always be Grover's "favorite"- you brought him home- your voice is the first he heard- your arms were the first to hold him, but in time, he will warm up to your husband. Having said that, he may never like other men. Oliver still gets freaked out by my brothers (he won't go near them,, and if they hug me, Oliver will growl or bark) and my dad wants him to love hime SO BAD! He's working on it-slowly but surely. The more I read, the more I see that Havanese dogs are very loyal and very protective of their master. They don't like to be alone and they seem to experience seperation-anxiety when their "favorite" person is not around. Hang in there! Grover will bring you so much joy! He will love your entire family in no time!


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## KittehKat (Jul 26, 2011)

tcollins said:


> Grover is so cute! And welcome to the forum!


Thanks and thanks! Your little guy is adorable, too! Of course, I'm learning all Havs are, but nonetheless  It's so nice to hear from so many people who've had similar problems, and have great advice/solutions. And it's nice to not be 'the only one' who has dog-related challenges 

The forum has been a God-send! I feel like I'm using way too many exclamation points, but it's just sooo awesome!

I finally found the perfect "just from Dad" treat, and tonight was the test and it was a raging success. Now to just keep it up! After a bit of an argument last night (with the DH, not the dog) we seem to all be on the same page, so things are looking up.

Today was the first time Grover growled at anyone since I've been on the forums, and instead of being harsh with him, I told him "Grover, no - it's okay" and let him get some distance and everything was fine. I told the kids to slow down, and Grover slowly came up as I spoke to them, sniffed the tires of their bikes, checked things out, etc. I was so proud of him!

So much progress in one day - I'm kind of worn out LOL


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KittehKat said:


> Yeah, Grover loves his fruit, too. My grandmother used to have this tiny dog that loved grapes, but she'd always peel them before giving them to her, so I was really surprised when I read (before getting my little dude) about grapes being bad.
> 
> I can't imagine how much fun an entire class of Havs would be! I'd LOVE to do agility training with Grover some time, but our plan is to live up here for... well, ever, so classes are kind of out of the question :S I still hope that we can do some of our own agility stuff, once we've got the basics down, but we'll see what the future holds! ... and how my patience holds up


Yeah, a lot of people used to use grapes for training with bigger dogs. I think that not all dogs react to them, but for the ones that do, it can kill them. Because the reaction is SO severe, and you don't know ahead of time what dog will react (and small dogs seem to have more trouble) vets just said not to feed them to ANY dog.

As far as agility is concerned, when Grover is old enough there is a WONDERFUL on-line source for agility training, and that is a fellow Canadian, Susan Garrett. (Say Yes Dog Training) She has a number of books and DVD's, and runs LOTS of on line webinars. I'm doing her "Puppy Peaks" webinar right now, and she's just a wealth of information.

You shouldn't start serious agility training until Grover is a year old and his joints have matured (especially jumping and weaves) but there are LOTS of fun puppy exercises that can prepare him for the sport, and just make him a more coordinated, more body-aware dog. (and a better house pet as well... Agility is WONDERFUL for developing self-confidence in shy dogs)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

tcollins said:


> The more I read, the more I see that Havanese dogs are very loyal and very protective of their master. They don't like to be alone and they seem to experience seperation-anxiety when their "favorite" person is not around.


I'm sure there are some Havs that fit this description, but I know many, MANY more who are happy-go-lucky people loving dogs. Many have never met a person they don't like.<g> They DO usually have "favorite" people, but typically, are good with everyone (that's why they make such great therapy dogs!)

I have also not heard much about them being very protective. They will "alarm bark" when someone comes to the door, but if they are worried about someone or something, they are more likely to hide behind your legs than try to protect you!ound: (can you blame them at their size!:biggrin1

And as far as separation anxiety is concerned, yes, some of them exhibit this, but it is far from all or even most of them. Most Havs are easy going, well balanced little dogs.

Proper exposure and socialization can mitigate MANY of the above problems. Hopefully, a puppy from a good breeder will already have had a good start. It can be harder with a puppy mill/pet store dog or puppy. But that type of puppy can't be used to assess the temperament qualities of the breed in general.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KittehKat said:


> Thanks and thanks! Your little guy is adorable, too! Of course, I'm learning all Havs are, but nonetheless  It's so nice to hear from so many people who've had similar problems, and have great advice/solutions. And it's nice to not be 'the only one' who has dog-related challenges
> 
> The forum has been a God-send! I feel like I'm using way too many exclamation points, but it's just sooo awesome!
> 
> ...


Great news! So what was the "perfect treat"?!?:biggrin1:


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## KittehKat (Jul 26, 2011)

krandall said:


> Great news! So what was the "perfect treat"?!?:biggrin1:


I found some sausage-in-blanket type things at the store. I usually like to feed my entire family un-processed stuff, but I knew this would be a big-ticket item in Grover's world (or, hoped, at least!) and it tooootally worked. DH gave him the first one, and Grover of course took it and skidaddled, but then DH held on to the second one and Grover had to stand there and chew it. Grover was looking pretty nervously at DH the entire time, but it's only night one, and he was willing to go and spend that much time near DH, so... good enough for first timers!

I'm still going to try the yogurt thing, though - as soon as I can find something small enough to freeze them in. I don't even have icecube trays because they're $9.99 for two so... we'll see if I cave. Or if I can find something better.

You sure were busy this morning, Karen, posting all those responses! LOL I'm going to have a hard time keeping up to you. I like the idea of agility making Grover more confident - I'll take a look at some of those resources. I don't know if my internet connection could handle a webinar, but I'll look into it, 'cause that would be fantastic.

Grover has exhibited separation anxiety, but for the most part he calms down quickly. If DH is in the house, he will even 'settle' and hang out near him. DH will tell him "Grover, no" if he starts whining when I'm out, and if he whines too much when we're out of the room and he's in his kennel (like, at bedtime when we don't go immediately to sleep, he can hear us and figures he should be having fun, too) and I'll just gently say "Grover, no - it's time for bed" and he'll stop right away. So yes, some signs, but in general it seems like he's going to get over it 

I have to read the other stuff you said, to see if I missed anything I should be responding to!


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## jillnors2 (Apr 12, 2007)

> I told him "Grover, no - it's okay"


Don't say Grover's name when you say "No". You want his name only associated with positive things like COME Grover!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jillnors2 said:


> Don't say Grover's name when you say "No". You want his name only associated with positive things like COME Grover!!


And if you want a reliable recall, don't say "come" (or your recall word) unless you are 95% sure the puppy is intending to come to you anyway! The recall is the easiest thing to mess up. The word "come" gets contaminated REALLY easily.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Good to come home to good news . You sound like you're progressing well. If men are scary, have them sit on the floor and string out a trail of your new treats starting at a comfortable distance and getting closer. Put a couple under their legs, but tell the men not to move or look directly at him. Nothing works like classical conditioning. The hard part is getting men to sit still. LOL


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Welcome to the forum! Ive been away for a few days and found it fun to read about you and your new Havanese. I am not good at training but just wanted to say Hi and I find it so interesting where you live that I had to google up some photo's! do most people fish where you live? Cant wait to see the jacket you are making.


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## KittehKat (Jul 26, 2011)

Thanks, Dave, for the great idea about the man-training... uh, that sounded wrong, but you know what I mean. I have two men who, with enough training, should be able to sit still long enough to help me with Grover  

And thanks for the welcome, Suzi. It's funny you should ask about fishing, as I just came back from a solo hike/fishing trip/photography spree with 6 rock cod. I caught 8, but decided the others were too little  Cambridge Bay's Innuit name translates literally to "the place of many fish"! Last week my husband and 4 y/o came fishing with me, and we brought home 10 rock cod. Arctic Char runs here, too, but so far I've had no luck! 

I will definitely post pics of Grover's new coat, as soooon as I get it done (which may take a while, as I've been rather lazy lately!)

In other Grover news, he's improving remarkably. He's getting more reliable about house-training (though I think I'll have to do the pee pads in winter, it's just toooo cold here) and he's warming up a LOT to my daughter. The nightly treats with DH are working wonders, and the two of them can actually play on the bed together, so long as I within Grover's sight. I've stopped disciplining him for growling, and seen a ton of improvements - he'll still growl now and then, but I think overall feels more in control. He will often still run to me and lean against my ankle or something, but I'll take any improvements I can get


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Great stuff, yeah be patient, men are slow learners. Arctic char wow. What do you charge to ship to Kitchener Ontario.? LOL


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## KittehKat (Jul 26, 2011)

LOL 

It's not what I charge, Dave... it's how to preserve it for the month and a half it would take to get there  

And yes, I'm joking a bit about the time... but not much! My mom lives in Hamilton, so I've got a good idea


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I',m patient, send it on an iceberg next spring. God I think I',m drooling. Fish always tastes better on shore though. We need pics.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Two other options. 1. Give it Santa to bring down here... you must know him?

2. Maybe you could give it to Sarah Palan ,she's touring down here sometime soon?


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## KittehKat (Jul 26, 2011)

Well, Santa and I aren't on speaking terms right now... ever since that whole "cookie incident"... >_>

As for Sarah Palin, I don't think she's interested in Canada. But if I can ever even catch ONE char, I'll think about you while I'm eating it... I promise!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

O K , we want a pic of you eating Char and feeding some to your Grover. Love his name.


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## KittehKat (Jul 26, 2011)

LOL Okay, that's a deal I can live with. Grover was veeeeery interested in the cod I caught today - I bet he'd be even more interested in char!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

This makes me want to come up there. http://www.uncommonyukon.com/cuisine/ 
Don't know anyone with a private jet ehhh?


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## KittehKat (Jul 26, 2011)

Not yet, but around here it's only a matter of time! You should come visit - you'd love it, and the fishing is amazing!! Just make sure you come during the summer, so you can literally fish all day and all night without a flashlight


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

That would be a TREAT. And you wouldn't even have to click. LOL


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

. . . enjoying reading about Grover and his home ! . . .


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