# Suddenly more cautious



## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

Hello everyone

My newest question about Kipling is this - recently he has started to freeze and sometimes back up when we encounter large dogs on our walk. This is particularly true if he doesn't know them or if more than one is on a walk together. 

Up until now he's seemed more fearless no matter which dog he encounters. 

The other day he went into a down position with head up. He was quiet. No growling. The other owner allowed her sheep dog to approach. The dog sniffed Kipling's nose but not suddenly or aggressively. Kipling air-snapped at the dog and the dog backed off. 

My question is this - in puppy class 'fearfulness' is not seen as a good thing....so is it necessary for Kipling to be completely fearless or is it fair for him to be cautious where bigger dogs are concerned?

Also - he has done fine with all new dogs big and small when in a boarding or puppy day care situation.

I'd appreciate your insights.

Thanks


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I am certainly no expert. I think some caution and or respect for big dogs is not a bad thing, but, having said that, I think now is the time to address it, because from first hand experience a little caution now can exellerate to full blown Tazmanian Devil left unchecked. I was told to step in front of Jasper and the "offensive" dog, person or car. greet them myself first and then let the dog or person then greet Jasper. It has worked with most dogs and humans...not with Cars (or the mail) But I don't think we paid attention soon enough... Kudos for addressing this now. Cash also, who never had a problem does not like any dog with retriever in them... labs, goldens, doodles...he will back off and if the dog approaches he snarls... 

Also, just out of curiosity how old is Kipping?


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

Thank you Missy - meant to include Kipling's age - he is 7.5 months now. I do not want him to become snarly and unfriendly so thank you for the suggestion. I will try that. It's interesting because the other day we saw two big dogs - one lab and one std poodle who he knows and from a distance he stopped and assessed but when he realized which dogs he was seeing he approached. When they both came at him at the same time this was too much (the lab is also a pretty rambunctious, just learning puppy). He pulled back and stood behind me. Then when the owners had one dog come see him at a time he was fine.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KSC said:


> Thank you Missy - meant to include Kipling's age - he is 7.5 months now. I do not want him to become snarly and unfriendly so thank you for the suggestion. I will try that. It's interesting because the other day we saw two big dogs - one lab and one std poodle who he knows and from a distance he stopped and assessed but when he realized which dogs he was seeing he approached. When they both came at him at the same time this was too much (the lab is also a pretty rambunctious, just learning puppy). He pulled back and stood behind me. Then when the owners had one dog come see him at a time he was fine.


That sounds like a perfectly normal (and self-preserving!) attitude. Who WOULD want to get bounced on by an animal many times your size, even if it were "all in good fun". Kodi is also much more cautious around young retrievers. They seem to be overly bouncy and do a lot of flailing around with their front feet, both of which he doesn't like.

My approach has been that if a dog on the street looks under control, I check with the owner to ask if they are dog-friendly. If so, I ask if we can introduce them, as I'm working on socializing my puppy. I also ask the other owner if it's OK to give their dog a treat. Then I give the FIRST treat to the other dog, to keep him/her occupied, and then I give Kodi his treat.

Because of this, Kodi looks on seeing other dogs as a "REALLY GOOD THING".<g> It even seems to have tided him over through a couple of scary incidents with NOT friendly, loose, big dogs where I've had to yank him up off the ground quickly to get him out of harm's way. He's wary of THOSE dogs (one we avoid now, the other we can't avoid, because it lives at the end of our long, shared driveway:rant

Of course, I also try to arrange regular play dates with dogs he knows well so that he can really run around and play in an unstructured way, but I'm not sure that has as much influence on the issue of strange dogs on the street as our little street-side meet and greets.

The other thing I've been told is that adolescent puppies go through a "shy" period, just like babies do, when they are more concerned about things in their environment. I've noticed that Kodi seems to be at that stage too. All of a sudden, he started to be very reluctant to go outside to potty after dark. (even though he was with one of us and on a leash... he never goes out alone) We started turning on the big spot light on the side of the house, and that gives him a lit up area to do his business.

So, I guess I'm with Missy. I think you are right to address it and "work it" a bit, but I also wouldn't get overly worried about it just yet. Does the place that you are going for classes offer "free play" times? This can be a fun, inexpensive, trainer-supervised way for dogs to get socialization time in.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

All dogs can't be expected to get along with every dog. During adolescence small dogs can get snappy. Here is an article that I found for you. ...
Dog-Dog Socialization also deteriorates during adolescence, often at an alarming rate, especially for very small and very large dogs. First, teaching a dog to get along with every other dog is difficult. Groups of wild canids — wolves, coyotes, jackals, etc. — seldom welcome strangers into their midst, but that's exactly what we expect of Canis familiaris. Second, it is unrealistic to expect a dog to be best friends with every dog. Much like people, dogs have special friends, casual acquaintances, and individuals they don't particularly like. Third, it is quite natural for dogs (especially males) to squabble. In fact, it is a rare male dog that has never been involved in some physical altercation. Everything was fine with young pups playing in class and in parks, but with adolescent dogs, the scraps, the arguments, and even the play-fighting seem all too real. 

A dog's first adolescent fight often marks the beginning of the end of his socialization with other dogs. Again, this is especially true for very small and very large dogs. Owners of small dogs are understandably concerned about their dog's safety and may be disinclined to allow their dogs to run with the big dogs. Here is where socialization starts downhill and the small dog becomes increasingly snappy and scrappy. Similarly, owners of large dogs (especially the working breeds) are understandably concerned that their dogs might hurt smaller dogs. Here too socialization goes downhill and the big dog becomes increasingly snappy and scrappy. Now we're in vicious circle: the less the dog is socialized, the more likely he is to fight and thus be less socialized. 

Adapted from AFTER You Get Your Puppy by Dr. Ian Dunbar


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

Thank you Dave - your articles and references are always helpful - in this case what message should I take from this? I seem to understand that during adolescence this is normal to some extent. I also understand that it is important to respect his responses. I am inclined to read his body language and if he's not comfortable I don't necessarily feel inclined to make him greet the other dog. I'm just as happy to keep walking in that case. I guess what I was wondering is whether this is ok. I _think_ people are saying yes...this is ok. Did I get it?


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

krandall said:


> That sounds like a perfectly normal (and self-preserving!) attitude.
> 
> So, I guess I'm with Missy. I think you are right to address it and "work it" a bit, but I also wouldn't get overly worried about it just yet. Does the place that you are going for classes offer "free play" times? This can be a fun, inexpensive, trainer-supervised way for dogs to get socialization time in.


Thank you! Yes our puppy class has free play time. He LOVES it.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

no, you're right. If your dog is not comfortable with the other dog ,don't force them to meet. Make sure you know the body language skills so that you don't inadvertantly go beyond threshold for your dog.


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> no, you're right. If your dog is not comfortable with the other dog ,don't force them to meet. Make sure you know the body language skills so that you don't inadvertantly go beyond threshold for your dog.


Ok - thank you Dave. When he spots a dog he's not comfortable with he freezes and sometimes either backs up or stands behind me. He may even go into his down position but I can tell it's not a 'come play' down. It's an 'I'm on alert' down....so at that point I'm fine with him staying back. Thanks for the input all!


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

Hello everyone - I'm coming back to a thread I started a while ago - we are now 3 months down the road, and the winter is almost behind us which means we are back to taking mroe regular walks and encountering more dogs. Over the past few months we have walked but not every day and we haven't seen as many dogs out. So...last night on our walk Kipling 'met' a 2 year old, very bouncy, larger Wheaton who came at him very directly...not unfriendly nor aggressive...just exuberant. Kipling went down, tail between his legs and when the dog did not get away from his face quickly enough he snarled and curled his lips. He also growled. 

I'm back to wondering whether this is going to lead to something worse. 

Thoughts?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KSC said:


> Hello everyone - I'm coming back to a thread I started a while ago - we are now 3 months down the road, and the winter is almost behind us which means we are back to taking mroe regular walks and encountering more dogs. Over the past few months we have walked but not every day and we haven't seen as many dogs out. So...last night on our walk Kipling 'met' a 2 year old, very bouncy, larger Wheaton who came at him very directly...not unfriendly nor aggressive...just exuberant. Kipling went down, tail between his legs and when the dog did not get away from his face quickly enough he snarled and curled his lips. He also growled.
> 
> I'm back to wondering whether this is going to lead to something worse.
> 
> Thoughts?


Did he do anything after the other dog backed off? If not, I think he was just stating his opinion in "dog language". He didn't feel comfortable with the way the other dog was acting, and told him so. I think this is appropriate behavior. We have an area by the lake that a lot of people go in the late afternoon to let their dogs play. There is an older Yorkie there who doesn't much like the bouncy play that Kodi and a Westie friend engage in. Kodi occasionally rushes up to this oldr dog to try to get him to join in.

The Yorkie snarls and snaps at the air in Kodi's direction when Kodi gets too close, but he never follows through or tries to turn it into a fight. He's just sort of saying, "Get outa here, punk!"<g> Kodi gets the message and runs off to find someone more fun to play with. I don't consider this Yorkie "aggressive"... h's just not happy getting bounced on, and communicates that to the younger dogs. Maybe Kipling is doing something similar?


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

Could be...he didn't do anything once the dog was pulled back...He was clear - he was saying back off...but once he did nothing more. No charging. No additional barking or growling...so what you say seems to make sense. Little Miss Wheaton didn't catch on too quickly (nor did her owner) so it took more than one reminder from Kipling....


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Sylvia, I wouldn't worry about it. Kipling was just trying to warn him she was uncomfortable with his actions. The dog was probably not socialized enough . Quite often dogs that aren't socialized well ,don't recognize another dogs calming signals. But don't get disheartened just keep socializing Kipling to large friendly dogs. Try not to approach them directly. Use a curving approach when possible.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KSC said:


> Could be...he didn't do anything once the dog was pulled back...He was clear - he was saying back off...but once he did nothing more. No charging. No additional barking or growling...so what you say seems to make sense. Little Miss Wheaton didn't catch on too quickly (nor did her owner) so it took more than one reminder from Kipling....


She might have if she was off leash. Dogs always seem to act worse on leash!


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

Thank you Dave and Karen - it's so strange to see Kipling acting uncomfortable like that but it's more than clear. Karen who do you mean might have charged off leash? the other dog or Kipling? 

Also Dave - when you say curving approach what do you mean?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Sorry! I wasn't clear. You wrote:

"Little Miss Wheaton didn't catch on too quickly (nor did her owner) "

That's what I was referring to, not the charging. Dogs often pull and lunge toward other dogs when they are on leash, because they want to go say "hi", and the owner is pulling in the other direction without having first taught the dog to ignore distractions. Let the same dog loose, and s/he will often run over, great appropriately, and then appropriately respond to the other dog's body language. 

At our training school, they have play groups a couple of times a week, and owners must take their dog's leash off just inside the ring gate. It's when dogs are held back that they get so over-excited that they start bouncing all over the other dogs and get themselves in trouble.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

KSC said:


> Thank you Dave and Karen - it's so strange to see Kipling acting uncomfortable like that but it's more than clear. Karen who do you mean might have charged off leash? the other dog or Kipling?
> 
> Also Dave - when you say curving approach what do you mean?


Sylvia, curving is a signal that dogs use as a calming signal. If someone is walking toward you with a dog and they are on your dogs side, you might find that your dog will try to cross over to your side. This is a calming signal that your dog is giving to the other dog. He is trying not to walk directly into the other dog. It's considered "impolite" to walk directly at another dog. You can use this signal when approaching a fearful or aggressive dog . Use a curve approach or adjust direction a bit so that you are not walking directly at him. Watch the dog you are approaching and curve as much as necessary to make the other dog feel comfortable. A dog may start out pulling to greet another dog, but when the leash stops him over and over he can become frustrated and then become aggressive. Pulling is generally a sign that your dog wants to greet the other dog ,but if he is held back and then starts lunging ,it's time to leave the scene. There is a difference between pulling and lunging. Lunging is a surge forward, followed by a stop. If he starts this type of reaction usually accompanied with barking , it's time to leave. If you are walking and your dog wants to greet another leashed dog, curve toward each other and let them greet as soon as possible and let the leash go slack as soon as possible. If any frustration seems to settle in ,it's time to leave. If you want a great book on this, and its a mini book, (cheap) get Patricia McConnnell's -- Fiesty Fido (help for the leash reactive dog)


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

krandall said:


> Sorry! I wasn't clear. You wrote:
> 
> "Little Miss Wheaton didn't catch on too quickly (nor did her owner) "
> 
> ...


OK..yes...got it...yes I and I think you may be right - Miss Wheaton was really harmless it seemed. She was excited and wanted to play. Kipling clearly didn't. He sunk right back and away.


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> Sylvia, curving is a signal that dogs use as a calming signal. If someone is walking toward you with a dog and they are on your dogs side, you might find that your dog will try to cross over to your side. This is a calming signal that your dog is giving to the other dog. He is trying not to walk directly into the other dog. It's considered "impolite" to walk directly at another dog. You can use this signal when approaching a fearful or aggressive dog . Use a curve approach or adjust direction a bit so that you are not walking directly at him. Watch the dog you are approaching and curve as much as necessary to make the other dog feel comfortable. A dog may start out pulling to greet another dog, but when the leash stops him over and over he can become frustrated and then become aggressive. Pulling is generally a sign that your dog wants to greet the other dog ,but if he is held back and then starts lunging ,it's time to leave the scene. There is a difference between pulling and lunging. Lunging is a surge forward, followed by a stop. If he starts this type of reaction usually accompanied with barking , it's time to leave. If you are walking and your dog wants to greet another leashed dog, curve toward each other and let them greet as soon as possible and let the leash go slack as soon as possible. If any frustration seems to settle in ,it's time to leave. If you want a great book on this, and its a mini book, (cheap) get Patricia McConnnell's -- Fiesty Fido (help for the leash reactive dog)


OK thank you...Kipling didn't curve. He just keeps walking and then when the other dog comes to greet enthusiastically, he pulls back. So he's not pulling or lunging but rather stepping back and if the other dog comes too directly at him he will growl. Today at the groomer he greeted 3 other dogs - all within the same size category as he is - with no issue - sniffing and eager to greet and play..it's been a pattern for him that the bigger the dog the less sure he is. I guess he knows he's smaller.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

definitely, smaller dogs can quite often only have a problem with bigger dogs. It's somewhat natural. But don't deliberately try to shy away from them. Find some ones you know to be friendly and work with them to establish some confidence. You'll be fine. You've got a great dog.


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

Thank you...he has a wheaton/poodle mix that he's pals with and a standard poodle. We'll also start another puppy class in May and that class has a mix of large and small dogs.


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