# long term consequences of early training



## jdog (Feb 28, 2013)

Hi all, I have been reading this forum for a few months in anticipation of our new puppy(Wicket). Happy to say he is now part of our family (just over 9 weeks old), and we are in the throngs of puppydom (for better and worse.....Daytime better/nightime worse. He came home to us a very playful yet easily calmed puppy. As was so often recommended I read Mr. Dunbars before and after books, and felt quite confident bringing Wicket home. He came from a breeder who has already paper trained him, and it seems to me he is quite well socialized and confident. I just dont want to mess things up. Here are my questions:

Are there any thoughts on the difference of personalities of dogs that are kennle/long term confinement trained (will spend a decent amount of the first weeks or months barking/whimpering in confinement, as the books suggest; vs a more "role with the punches" approach where there is little to no continuous barking, and little or no confinment. 


How long should you let a dog bark if the confinement route is chosen? This may be a dumb question, but I have heard of puppies barking the entire night. Is is suggested this be ignored if food/water/potty requirements have been met? Wicket did relatively well IMO considering he is in a completely foreign environment.

Are all dogs unique in expressing how they need to go potty? or are there a few tale tale signs?

Thanks in advance for any input. Any other sleep/potty/training advice is very welcome and appreciated.

P.S. I know.......I will post some pictures ASAP


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## jdog (Feb 28, 2013)




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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jdog said:


> Hi all, I have been reading this forum for a few months in anticipation of our new puppy(Wicket). Happy to say he is now part of our family (just over 9 weeks old), and we are in the throngs of puppydom (for better and worse.....Daytime better/nightime worse. He came home to us a very playful yet easily calmed puppy. As was so often recommended I read Mr. Dunbars before and after books, and felt quite confident bringing Wicket home. He came from a breeder who has already paper trained him, and it seems to me he is quite well socialized and confident. I just dont want to mess things up. Here are my questions:
> 
> Are there any thoughts on the difference of personalities of dogs that are kennle/long term confinement trained (will spend a decent amount of the first weeks or months barking/whimpering in confinement, as the books suggest; vs a more "role with the punches" approach where there is little to no continuous barking, and little or no confinment.
> 
> ...


I don't think that either of those extremes are good options, nor are the necessary. CERTAINLY the puppy should be confined if you can't keep your eyes ON him. That means paying close attention... not merely being in the same room, doing something else. This is the only way to prevent accidents in the first weeks. I am a strong believer in an indoor potty option for small breed puppies (and dogs), but that's up to you. If you want to ONLY train him to go outdoors, you have to be committed to taking him out hourly (possibly even more often) as well as right after every meal and right after he wakes from a nap for AT LEAST a number of weeks. Sometimes a number of months.

You will have a little more flexibility, and the puppy can earn a little more freedom (like a room with a hard floor, not the entire house!) a little faster if the puppy is confirmed in his understanding of an indoor potty spot.

I can't even imagine not confining a puppy overnight. This sounds like a recipe for accidents to me. If you're lucky, you have a breeder who introduces the puppy to sleeping in a crate before they go to their new home. If not, you will probably have at least a couple of nights of whimpering and crying, but unless you are doing something to inadvertently encourage it, they SHOULDN'T be barking all night long... at least not for long.

I think you received good advice in another thread about putting the crate at a level where he can see you in bed. Put him in there after his last potty trip of the evening, say good night, climb in bed, and DON'T talk to him again. The calmer and more relaxed you stay, the faster he'll settle. Even a young (8-9 week old) puppy shouldn't need to potty more than once or at the MOST twice during your sleep cycle, and by the time they are 11 or 12 weeks old, should be able to sleep through the night.

Another option, if you are SURE they understand the indoor potty is to set them up with their crate inside an ex-pen, (door open) and a litter box, pee pad or whatever in the pen also. Then they can get to the potty and use it independently during the night if needed. But this only works if you KNOW that your puppy will reliably use the potty provided. I have RA, and REALLY need my sleep. Kodi was 11 weeks when we got him, and had been well trained to a litter box. For the first week, either I or my son slept beside him on the couch, just to make sure he wasn't lonely. (there was never a peep out of him) after that, we just set him up in an ex-pen and he did fine. Sometimes he used his litter box, sometimes he waited for us to get up and take him out. But he had the option to use the litter box if he needed it.


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## jdog (Feb 28, 2013)

Thaks for the post. I think you hit on a few of my significant concerns. Between me and my wife and kids we can get him outdoors every hour without too much problem. It is just difficult to tell when he needs to go as he doesn't always eliminate when we take him out. We will need to use the ex-pen option, as my wife will leave for an hour or two at a time where Wicket can't go with her. 

Any advice for training with the ex-pen? At this point he is disinterested in his stuffed kongs, he just wants to play with us. I know he needs to be ignored once he is in there, but if he barks for a half hour, an hour, what is too long. And when he finally calms down do I go right in and praise him? Take him out to play and risk a potty accident?

Thanks for the great input.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

I think if your wife is only leaving for a couple hours your puppy would do fine in his crate. If you do use an ex pin be careful about where the crate is placed. Mine would climb on top and get out of the x pin. Maddie even climbed out with out anything to jump on. If it longer than 2 hours the x pin is good so he can play and use his potty area.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jdog said:


> Thaks for the post. I think you hit on a few of my significant concerns. Between me and my wife and kids we can get him outdoors every hour without too much problem. It is just difficult to tell when he needs to go as he doesn't always eliminate when we take him out. We will need to use the ex-pen option, as my wife will leave for an hour or two at a time where Wicket can't go with her.
> 
> Any advice for training with the ex-pen? At this point he is disinterested in his stuffed kongs, he just wants to play with us. I know he needs to be ignored once he is in there, but if he barks for a half hour, an hour, what is too long. And when he finally calms down do I go right in and praise him? Take him out to play and risk a potty accident?
> 
> Thanks for the great input.


You need to start training confinement in very short increments. Start with 2 minutes, then 5, then 10... You can't just put the puppy in there and wait for them to "get over it". They are little babies, in a new frightening world. You can cause real anxiety problems that way.

With Kodi, I found that he was much more likely to settle in his pen or crate if I wasn't in the house or at least not on the same floor. He never really liked being in his pen when I was working nearby. I work from home, so I set up an ex-pen gated off area around my desk, and put a litter box in with us. He played around my feet as I worked. If I needed to go elsewhere in the house, I tethered him to me so I could keep a close eye on him.

Every puppy will give slightly different signals that he needs to go, and you learn them just by watching him closely. The reason for taking him out so often isn't that he'll need to GO that often, necessarily, but because you have a better chance of catching when he does need to go. (pretty sure bets are first thing in the morning, after meals and after naps). You WILL miss from time to time in the beginning, but do your very best to minimize accidents. Make sure that accidents are ebcause you haven't quite learned his signals, NOT because you weren't watching him closely enough.

With most puppies, it's fairly easy to tell if they need to poop. They stat sniffing around, sometimes running around while sniffing the floor (or ground) and then start to circle. Peeing can be harder. Some puppies squat, while others, like my Kodi, just stand still and go! With all that fluff on our Havanese puppies, if they don't squat, it can be hard to see what's going on under there! Still, we learned that Kodi would start sniffing around if he was too far from his litter box and needed to pee.

I won't say he never had an accident, but really not that many. I also am really glad we maintained his use of the litter box. It has made it MUCH easier in nasty weather in the winter time, and for the rare occasion when we have to leave him for longer periods of time. We found that he gravitated to going outdoors witout any real encouragement from us. In fact, he MUCH prefers going outside, so we have to really encourage him to use the litter box in nasty weather. That's your choice, but we hear over and over on the forum from people who wish they had maintained indoor potty training. Once you lose it, it's almost impossible to get back again.


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## jdog (Feb 28, 2013)

Thank you both for the very helpful encouragement and advice. I recognize you have answered these questions many times. Thank you thank you. A quick question about night time kennels. Any advice for best practices. Currently I have Wicket in his kennel where he can see me. What can I expect moving forward for potty breaks,(I have read one to two), and whining/barking?


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

It sounds like you are on the right path!! A puppy should absolutely be in a crate at night (in the beginning) until you are sure that they can hold it thru the night. I put the crate (a tiny one) eye level next to my bed. when the puppy whined, I just stuck my fingers in to calm them and it worked. They normally whined about 5 - 5:30 and were taken to the potty pad and then went right back to bed. My 5 week old puppy is doing that now! So at his age- he should be able to hold it most of the night. 

Every puppy should learn how to be alone when you leave, without major work to keep them busy. Do it in small increments is a great idea! 

I look forward to pictures!!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Chica'sMom said:


> Puppies can sleep through the night at that age. You shouldn't have to take him out.


Some of them can, some of them can't. And "sleep through the night" means different things to different people. 11-6 could be "though the night to one person, while 10-7 could be another person's sleep schedule. That makes a big difference to a young puppy. You really need to let the puppy guide you on that one. You certainly don't want to force them to eliminate in the crate.

Also, even if they USUALLY can make it through, there can be times when they just can't for one reason or another.


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

In his puppy days, I would usually get up around 1am or 2 am to visit the bathroom myself, so I would invite Henry to come with me.


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## jdog (Feb 28, 2013)

Great info, it sure helps to hear what others have done. I can start to see Wickets personality, and that helps to make good choices in care.

Another tough question. Last night he settled down to sleep at about 10pm. slept till around midnight, he began barking in his crate (a few feet away from me where i can see him and he can see me) I took him out to potty, he went, and I put him back in his crate. He barked for two hours, until after 2am. I ignored it (earplugs) and he settled down for another hour then began barking again. He barked until we woke up at 5 am, I took him outside and he went poo and pee on his pad. All told that is aobut 4.5 hours of barking. Im not worried about sleep and such, I can function with whatever, but he seemed a little hoarse this morning, I just worry about him. Any constructive feedback? Is this an OK practice?


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## jdog (Feb 28, 2013)

This is my exact dilemma. If I was confident he had the capacity to hold it through the night it would be easier to let him bark it out. He has never had an accident in his crate. I feel when I take him out at night to go to the bathroom I am reinforcing that barking gets him out of his Kennel. More often than not he doesnt even go when I take him out for 5 mins. He waits till morning anyway.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jdog said:


> Great info, it sure helps to hear what others have done. I can start to see Wickets personality, and that helps to make good choices in care.
> 
> Another tough question. Last night he settled down to sleep at about 10pm. slept till around midnight, he began barking in his crate (a few feet away from me where i can see him and he can see me) I took him out to potty, he went, and I put him back in his crate. He barked for two hours, until after 2am. I ignored it (earplugs) and he settled down for another hour then began barking again. He barked until we woke up at 5 am, I took him outside and he went poo and pee on his pad. All told that is aobut 4.5 hours of barking. Im not worried about sleep and such, I can function with whatever, but he seemed a little hoarse this morning, I just worry about him. Any constructive feedback? Is this an OK practice?


I think if you give in, when you KNOW he doesn't have to eliminate (because you've already just taken him out) you will just make it worse. I hope when you take him out to potty, you aren't talking to him, no eye contact, nothing. Be gentle, but no cuddling, and CERTAINLY no play. He'll get the message pretty fast that his needs will be met, but that, otherwise, night time is sleep time.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Chica'sMom said:


> Seriously????


Yes, seriously. Some have more mature bladder control than others, and there is always the possibility that something will upset their little tummy, causing them to need to poo during the night. Especially those 8-10 week olds often can't make it for 8 hours over night.

We got Kodi at 11 weeks, and he USUALLY made it over night, but there were times when he needed to go out.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jdog said:


> This is my exact dilemma. If I was confident he had the capacity to hold it through the night it would be easier to let him bark it out. He has never had an accident in his crate. I feel when I take him out at night to go to the bathroom I am reinforcing that barking gets him out of his Kennel. More often than not he doesnt even go when I take him out for 5 mins. He waits till morning anyway.


If that's the pattern, then he may be playing you.  I'd err on the side of caution for a few nights, just to make sure, as he is very new to you. But if he continues the pattern of not pottying when you take him out, I'd start to put him on ignore. ...And as I said in the previous post, when you DO take him out, give him as little input as possible. Think of it as "sleepwalk mode".


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## jdog (Feb 28, 2013)

At night it is all business, but as soon as I put him down he just jumps around to play......little turkey. I dont give any feedback, wait 5 minutes with no interaction and carry him back to his crate. Thanks again for all the input.


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## jdog (Feb 28, 2013)

Thanks Chicas Mom, I appreciate the input especially when quoted from a known quality breeder. Knowing that many or potentially all dogs should be able to hold it overnight is helpful going forward. Would the stress of leaving your littermates and familiar surroundings affect this?

Am I sunk with kennel training if he has an accident in his kennel?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Chica'sMom said:


> This is what experienced breeder Tom King had to say in a similar circumstance: "He should be able to sleep all night ... We expect them to sleep all night in a crate by 8 weeks."


I totally respect Tom... He and Pam had more experience raising puppies than anyone I know. But "all night" doesn't define the number of hours, and that means different things to different people. I go to bed around 9 and get up around 7. That would be impossible for many puppies. Even at 3 1/2, Kodi can't comfortably wait that long. When Kodi was little, I discussed it with Pam, and decided with her help, to do the ex-pen set-up. He now sleeps in a crate in our room, but asks to get up around 6. (Dave is usually getting up then anyway) So Dave takes him out, after which Kodi returns to snuggle in bed until I get up. On weekends, I get up with him, then we all get back in bed, and he'll sleep as late as we want.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jdog said:


> Thanks Chicas Mom, I appreciate the input especially when quoted from a known quality breeder. Knowing that many or potentially all dogs should be able to hold it overnight is helpful going forward. Would the stress of leaving your littermates and familiar surroundings affect this?
> 
> Am I sunk with kennel training if he has an accident in his kennel?


Certainly the stress of leaving their litter mates makes a difference. When you get a puppy from the Kings, that puppy has already had experience sleeping in a crate by himself, with his litter mates in crates next to him. I don't think many breeders do this, and it REALLY helps the puppies AND the new family.

And no, you are definitely no sunk if the puppy has an accident in the crate, though you want to avoid it if at all possible. Make sure that the crate bedding for the first few months is something easily washable, like soft, old towels. If the puppy does have an accident, make SURE that everything, crate and all bedding, are thoroughly washed and treated with a good enzyme cleaner to remove all trace of pee/poop smell. (don't just use regular cleaners... even if it smells clean to you, the puppy has a MUCH better nose than you do!!!) Wash the puppy too. You want them to always look at the crate as a place to be kept clean.


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## smiley65 (Dec 27, 2012)

Zoey is 12 weeks this week and been x-pen trained since day 1. I have school for a few hours in the day so I made her a set up with a pee pad area, her crate, a food area and a soft play area. She JUST stopped chewing up the pee pads this week (knock on wood that it sticks!) so that was a bit of an issue.. But she loves her crate and knows its her bed. Maybe I just lucked out, but what I did in the beginning was this;
I kept her in the x-pen, with the crate door open, where she could see me. When she whined, I ignored her. If she was quiet for more than 30 seconds, I would praise her. I would walk over, give her a rub and lots of "good quiet", give her a toy to distract her and walk away again. when she was tired, she went into her crate on her own, and I made no fuss about it. I left the door open in the beginning and only placed her in there at bed time. I slowly started closing the door after she went in on her own, and leaving it closed for 10, 20, 25 minutes.For the first week or 2, she was waking up every 3-5 hours. She just gave a scratch or two on the crate to wake me up, would go out to pee and I put her back in her crate (beside my bed) and said "go to sleep" ..I started taking her water away 3 hours before bed, and she started sleeping for 5-7 hours. By sleeping I mean she was quiet  I have always kept a stuffed toy with her mommys smell on it, as well as a chew toy, inside her crate to keep her busy if she wakes up in the middle of the night. 

Last night was the first night that she made a fuss about going to bed. She whined for a few minutes in her crate and wouldn't quiet down, so I moved her crate onto the floor where she couldn't see me (out of sight, out of mind?) and it worked! she was quiet within one minute and slept from about 11-7. I have heard of people covering the crate with a blanket at night, maybe this will help? I think (and hope) that she will make a different sound when she really needs to go out... so far so good.
We started bell training last week, and it's going great! I highly recommend it, especially when you start to allow more freedom in the house.

I would suggest taking food and water away 3 hrs prior to sleep time, then taking Wicket out for a pee right before you go to bed, even if you have to wake him up.


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