# looking at a possible 2nd surgery



## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

As many of you know, Perry had CCL / patella surgery in Sept 2019 (after his 3rd time tearing his CCL). That's healed nicely, though over the last few months we've had a few times (4-5) when he's just suddenly lifted his leg and wouldn't use it for a few minutes. His vet thought he seemed a little stiff as well, so she suggested we make an appointment/ check-up with this ortho vet. 

As you also may remember, he has a very twisted front leg. Last time we saw the ortho she said that she wouldn't do anything about it and just keep an eye on it. Over the last year though I have been feeling like it's twisted further (made me wish we'd xrayed it at one of his earlier ortho appointments) and that he's been "re-adjusting" it more when he's sitting (kind of positioning it and then repositioning it) with the ankle seeming, to me, like it was bowing out more. 

We had his check up today - verdict is still out until she reviews the xrays but her initial thoughts...
The back leg is still fine, healed nicely, no problems. The knee is still firmly in place. The only issue is that there's a suture that in 90-95% of cases they leave in (it's initially put in to hold things in place til the scar tissue can form and hold everything firmly), but in a small percentage, it ends up causing stiffness and irritation. So, in this case, she's thinking that's happening and wants to take it out.

The front leg, on the other hand, she agrees is definitely twisted more and is stressing the ankle. She's pretty sure she should go in and do as much as she can to straighten it/ support it. She has to review the xrays to be sure what's feasible, but she said that, in order to make sure he's still able to walk on it at 10-15, he should get it worked on now. I'm not concerned that she's "surgery happy" because she's also the vet who didn't want to do the CCL surgery immediately (but had said "third strike" - if it tore for a 3rd time she'd want to do surgery)... and initially she didn't think we'd have to do anything about the twisted leg. 

So, we're looking at leg surgery number 2 (though different leg) - at which point she'd also remove the suture from the back leg. Xrays will be reviewed by a radiologist tomorrow and then we'll discuss next steps. She did say that sometimes people do a 3D CAT Scan and 3D printing of the leg before the surgery if we wanted to go that route (but would have to check around at U Penn and Cornell to see if either do it) - but that she's done many of them from an xray so that is likely what we will do - unless she says tomorrow when we talk that she doesn't think she can see enough from the xray.

Healthy Paws is NOT going to like me at all  AND I am NOT looking forward to another bout of 2 months crate rest and restricted movement!!!


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

I am sorry for Perry having to need more surgery. I hope they can fix his leg so he can be problem free and pain free in the future. Good luck with everything. I know how hard restricted movement and crate rest can be on a dog AND owner!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> As many of you know, Perry had CCL / patella surgery in Sept 2019 (after his 3rd time tearing his CCL). That's healed nicely, though over the last few months we've had a few times (4-5) when he's just suddenly lifted his leg and wouldn't use it for a few minutes. His vet thought he seemed a little stiff as well, so she suggested we make an appointment/ check-up with this ortho vet.
> 
> As you also may remember, he has a very twisted front leg. Last time we saw the ortho she said that she wouldn't do anything about it and just keep an eye on it. Over the last year though I have been feeling like it's twisted further (made me wish we'd xrayed it at one of his earlier ortho appointments) and that he's been "re-adjusting" it more when he's sitting (kind of positioning it and then repositioning it) with the ankle seeming, to me, like it was bowing out more.
> 
> ...


Poor Perry and poor you. But OTOH... LUCKY Perry that he ended UP with an owner like you that cares enough to DO all this for him!!! 💕 💕 💕


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> Poor Perry and poor you. But OTOH... LUCKY Perry that he ended UP with an owner like you that cares enough to DO all this for him!!! 💕 💕 💕


Lucky that I can afford to do all of this (even with insurance it all costs a pretty penny). It did make me think about all the people who get their dogs from pet stores (from puppy mills) thinking to save money (less than you'd spend with a reputable breeder) but then can easily end up with these sort of problems (I know even well bred dogs from really good breeders can tear their CCL but the twisted leg is totally bad breeding). 

You know when you rescue that it's a crap shoot in terms of the breeding and potential health issues. 

Right now he's totally crashed out at the end of the bed from the sedation (to do the xrays).


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Molly120213 said:


> I am sorry for Perry having to need more surgery. I hope they can fix his leg so he can be problem free and pain free in the future. Good luck with everything. I know how hard restricted movement and crate rest can be on a dog AND owner!


Thanks - after the last surgery (And the two times before that we had to do crate rest to see if the tear could heal), I think restricted mvoement and crate rest is harder on the owner


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

😒

I wish the Forum had a sad or caring emoticon on the threads.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

I can commiserate with PERRY to an extent. This is not fun for PERRY, Melissa, or anyone. I am just happy he is in a place where he can get the best care available. DD2 has gone through TWO of these surgeries with her dog and no insurance. She thought she was getting a 'bargain' when she purchased her Lab. It turned out that was not the case. The good news is that her dog is fine today and I have confidence he will be okay too after his surgery.

PERRY is a brave and a good boy. RICKY and I are rooting for you amigo.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> Lucky that I can afford to do all of this (even with insurance it all costs a pretty penny). It did make me think about all the people who get their dogs from pet stores (from puppy mills) thinking to save money (less than you'd spend with a reputable breeder) but then can easily end up with these sort of problems (I know even well bred dogs from really good breeders can tear their CCL but the twisted leg is totally bad breeding).
> 
> You know when you rescue that it's a crap shoot in terms of the breeding and potential health issues.
> 
> Right now he's totally crashed out at the end of the bed from the sedation (to do the xrays).


The thing is, though, in your case, Perry is a rescue. But MOST of the time, pet store dogs are NOT much (if any) cheaper than a dog from a reputable breeder! That’s what kills me!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> Thanks - after the last surgery (And the two times before that we had to do crate rest to see if the tear could heal), I think restricted mvoement and crate rest is harder on the owner


Definitely! The nine months of very restricted mobility for Kodi with his shoulder injury was miserable for EVERYONE!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> The thing is, though, in your case, Perry is a rescue. But MOST of the time, pet store dogs are NOT much (if any) cheaper than a dog from a reputable breeder! That’s what kills me!


They're faster though - for the spur of a moment "let's get a puppy" people (or even, honestly, people who want one this year - since we know wait lists can be a long time). But the issues you are possibly getting can last a lifetime. We have many pet store dogs in the family (an extended family member owns a few pet stores - though they insist that the people they get them from are not "puppy mills" - I disagree.) It's a complete crapshoot. Many have been good dogs, but some have come with issues (including cousin Finley who did NOT get the socialization he needed for the first 3 months of his life and does NOT know how to interact properly with dogs of different temperaments). 

Yes, Perry is a rescue and is definitely a product of puppy mill - we don't do proper health checks of the parents given how crooked his leg is. But I love him to pieces anyway.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> They're faster though - for the spur of a moment "let's get a puppy" people (or even, honestly, people who want one this year - since we know wait lists can be a long time). But the issues you are possibly getting can last a lifetime.


True. And there are all too many people who buy pets as impulse purchases, or "have to have them" for a birthday or Christmas present or for some other specific date.



Melissa Brill said:


> We have many pet store dogs in the family (an extended family member owns a few pet stores - though they insist that the people they get them from are not "puppy mills" - I disagree.) It's a complete crapshoot. Many have been good dogs, but some have come with issues (including cousin Finley who did NOT get the socialization he needed for the first 3 months of his life and does NOT know how to interact properly with dogs of different temperaments).


A number of years ago, we were invited to a dinner party at a client's of Dave's. The people seated me beside the owner of a pet store chain, thinking we'd have "something in common". OMG... I spent more of my meal biting my tongue than chewing the food! LOL!



Melissa Brill said:


> Yes, Perry is a rescue and is definitely a product of puppy mill - we don't do proper health checks of the parents given how crooked his leg is. But I love him to pieces anyway.


And it's a WONDERFUL thing to rescue dogs like Perry!!! I am so glad there are people willing to do it!

The other thing I should mention is that even in a well-bred puppy (and I have no doubt that you are right, that Perry was from a puppy mill or he would not, in all likelihood, have ended upon a shelter at his tender age!) A young puppy ho is dropped can have damage to the growth plates in a front leg causing twisting of the leg as it grows. SOMETIMES it is possible to tell the difference between a congenital defect of a front leg, pretty much always if both front legs are wonky, you can assume the dog "came with" those legs. But if it is only ONE leg, unless you know the history (and the owners are honest about any early history of falls) a vet can't tell whether twisting of a leg is congenital or the result of damage to a growth plate. 

I am NOT saying that is the case with Perry, but I want people reading this to be aware of that possibility. It's another reason to be careful of young puppies!


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> But MOST of the time, pet store dogs are NOT much (if any) cheaper than a dog from a reputable breeder! That’s what kills me!





Melissa Brill said:


> (Pet store/puppy mill dogs are) faster though - for the spur of a moment "let's get a puppy" people (or even, honestly, people who want one this year - since we know wait lists can be a long time). But the issues you are possibly getting can last a lifetime.


Pet store dogs (and cats) were BANNED in California 5 years ago and home breeders have to be licensed and inspected by the State now. As far as I know, canine breeder "co-ops" where a group of breeders will have a marketing representative sell puppies on their behalf to save expenses (license fees, State sales taxes, inspection fees) which are common in some States are also not permitted here. Of course there are some breeders in California that try to 'fly under the radar' to circumvent the State requirements, but that is a misdemeanor and subject to significant fines and possible jail time. THAT DOES NOT MEAN ALL STATE LICENSED BREEDERS ARE A REPUTABLE BREEDER in California. Puppy mills are still an occasional problem here but less so now. 

Inexpensive puppies from a disreputable dealer are far from a bargain. I know people who have spent in excess of $10,000 for Vet services (surgeries, medication, special equipment, etc.) on bargain dogs from "reputable" breeders. Yet people continue to support these breeders because they want a puppy NOW or because they don't want to spend the going rate of around $3000 for a quality Havanese ("Hey I found a Havanese puppy for only $600, is this a reputable dealer?"). Even spending a lot of money on a Havanese is NOT a guarantee that the breeder is reputable. I have heard of one case where someone spent $4500 on a Havanese puppy from a photo they fell in love with on the Internet. They got their puppy, brought it home and found out it had significant health issues costing immediate Vet bills and possibly continuing Vet health care over the dog's lifetime (which will probably be relatively short). The breeder in this case (not from California) refused to stand behind her "guarantee." Of course the new owner is madly in love with her puppy but it is going to be a lot of extra work, extra expense, and possible heartache in the future. Fortunately in California we have a relatively effective "Small Claims Court" procedure where no attorneys are allowed to participate. It is just one person suing another before a judge and no jury. The Court has found through precedent that all written puppy guarantees are enforceable, ALL puppy deposits are refundable at anytime, and if a puppy is not to your liking after a given short period of time, the full cost is fully refundable.

I get a bit militant on this issue, well it really makes my blood boil! 😡 For those of you on HF looking for a quality puppy, listen to the recommendations of the members here who have been through this and offer sincere recommendations. That is still no guarantee that your 'puppy experience' will be trouble free, but it just might help.

Wishing the BEST for PERRY. It is not his fault (or Melissa's) for the trials and tribulations in his life.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> And it's a WONDERFUL thing to rescue dogs like Perry!!! I am so glad there are people willing to do it!
> 
> The other thing I should mention is that even in a well-bred puppy (and I have no doubt that you are right, that Perry was from a puppy mill or he would not, in all likelihood, have ended upon a shelter at his tender age!) A young puppy ho is dropped can have damage to the growth plates in a front leg causing twisting of the leg as it grows. SOMETIMES it is possible to tell the difference between a congenital defect of a front leg, pretty much always if both front legs are wonky, you can assume the dog "came with" those legs. But if it is only ONE leg, unless you know the history (and the owners are honest about any early history of falls) a vet can't tell whether twisting of a leg is congenital or the result of damage to a growth plate.
> 
> I am NOT saying that is the case with Perry, but I want people reading this to be aware of that possibility. It's another reason to be careful of young puppies!


Full update in another post (it's a really long one!) but on the leg - both his legs are twisted but the left is much more than the right. The vet says that part of this is because the radius and ulna did not grow evenly (which means the surgery will entail taking some bone from one, adding a spaceer (or something like that) to the other and pins and stuff...) It wouldn't surprise me if, in part, this was an early injury (puppy mills are NOT known for well cared for dogs) but it has to be at least partially congenital as well given it's both legs. AND since it is both legs, that's one of the reasons the vet does want to do surgery - because the other is not 100% sound as well.



Ricky Ricardo said:


> Inexpensive puppies from a disreputable dealer are far from a bargain. I know people who have spent in excess of $10,000 for Vet services (surgeries, medication, special equipment, etc.) on bargain dogs from "reputable" breeders. ...
> 
> Wishing the BEST for PERRY. It is not his fault (or Melissa's) for the trials and tribulations in his life.


Thanks. And you're not far off on the vet bill costs (so glad I invested in pet insurance) - between his last surgery and the surgeries to come - we are easily going to hit the $10k mark!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

OK, update - probably a bit of a long one... 

Talked to the vet today - and the discussion that I thought would focus on how his front leg looked, what the surgery would look like and when we needed to do it, became a discussion that the Dr. noticed, when they did the first xray, that there was a "lesion" (Aka tumor) on his spine. So they did a few more xrays and found 3 "lesions" - 1 about the size of a golf ball. So, discussions of surgery on his leg have been put on hold and we're now scheduled for a CAT scan and biopsy (scheduled for May 11th, but hopefully moving it sooner- when I made it for the 11th it was because I had to go back to that vet then for Uncle Duncan's checkup (gallbladder issues) and wanted to save the trip - but then realized that is 3 weeks away and I really can't wait that long (without losing my mind) - so hopefully we'll be able to at least move it a week earlier and they'll let me know if they have a cancellation before that. The biopsy will entail taking a sample of the mass AND of the bone, hopefully of 2 of the 3 (one is under a lot of muscle so she doesn't want to bother than for a biopsy right now) and then we wait. 

The biopsy results take 2 weeks (!!!!) to get back (so more time for me to lose my mind) so then we can decide what to do. She said that even if it's benign she wants to take it out - but the difference would be the "margin" that she removes depending on if it's benign or malignant. So, now we wait to find out (and cross every finger and toe possible that they're benign). AND the leg surgery gets put on hold til this is all figured out.

When I got home (I was out when she called) I googled it - and lucky us - I read that spinal tumors/ lesions are rare in dogs and 90% of them occur in large breeds. Lucky lucky me to have the very small percentage that occurs in small / toy breeds . I can't even begin to imagine what the recovery time/ process will be on this. AND then if all goes well, another recovery time for the leg. I can't even think that far ahead right now.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

SMH ! Sending good vibrations to PERRY and Melissa.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> SMH ! Sending good vibrations to PERRY and Melissa.


Keep sending them - we need them for sure!


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Melissa, I am SO sorry to hear this! The leg news was hard enough, but this...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> Full update in another post (it's a really long one!) but on the leg - both his legs are twisted but the left is much more than the right. The vet says that part of this is because the radius and ulna did not grow evenly (which means the surgery will entail taking some bone from one, adding a spaceer (or something like that) to the other and pins and stuff...) It wouldn't surprise me if, in part, this was an early injury (puppy mills are NOT known for well cared for dogs) but it has to be at least partially congenital as well given it's both legs. AND since it is both legs, that's one of the reasons the vet does want to do surgery - because the other is not 100% sound as well.
> 
> 
> Thanks. And you're not far off on the vet bill costs (so glad I invested in pet insurance) - between his last surgery and the surgeries to come - we are easily going to hit the $10k mark!


But he’s priceless! ❤


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## Mando's Mommy (Dec 8, 2020)

Poor Perry and poor you. Sending hugs and positive vibes to you both!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Sheri said:


> Melissa, I am SO sorry to hear this! The leg news was hard enough, but this...


yeah this was tough especially when I was expecting the leg discussion and it turned into this. But, will keep fingers (And toes) crossed that it's benign and all we're dealing with is removing it.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> But he’s priceless! ❤


oh he totally is - I'm just so lucky I can afford to treat him as priceless as well! Here's hoping there's no max on the healthy paws policy


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Mando's Mommy said:


> Poor Perry and poor you. Sending hugs and positive vibes to you both!


Thanks! and keep fingers and toes crossed as well!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Oh, no! I just read tour second post. i am SO sorry! Warm wishes and healing thoughs coming for tour poor little guy! What a LOT for tou to take in! Please let us know as SOON as tou know ANYTHING!!! ❤


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## Mando's Mommy (Dec 8, 2020)

Melissa Brill said:


> Thanks! and keep fingers and toes crossed as well!


Mando and I will cross our fingers/toes/paws for Perry! 💙


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Oh Melissa...I'm so very sorry to hear you and Perry are having to deal with these challenges.  I will be keeping you and Perry in my thoughts.💜


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

I am very sorry to hear this Melissa. One major dog health problem in a lifetime is enough. WOW this is just too much. I wish you the very best and admire you for the care you are giving Perry.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> Oh, no! I just read tour second post. i am SO sorry! Warm wishes and healing thoughs coming for tour poor little guy! What a LOT for tou to take in! Please let us know as SOON as tou know ANYTHING!!! ❤


The waiting is going to kill me - it will be at least 4 weeks (possibly 5 if I can't change his appointment earlier) til we get the results of the biopsy!

In the meantime, despite google saying that the main symptom of this is pain, he's perfectly fine. You'd never know he has a golf ball size growth on one of his vertebrae! 

It does remind you though to get things checked out even if you think it's minor. I just wanted a recheck on his back leg and the twist on his front - in part because of just a couple of times of picking up the back one and because he has looked a little stiff/ seemed to be favoring something though I couldn't tell what! Even the vet said that at this point we have no idea if the slight limping is coming from the arthritis (or the suture) in his back leg, the unevenness and arthritis of his front leg OR the tumors on his spine! (OR I guess some combination of the 3).


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Send Positive Thoughts to Perry and his Fam...


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

Sorry have just read this post properly Melissa. So sorry to here about this latest setback for Perry and the heartache it is causing you having to wait it out for results. Sending good thoughts and love to you and Perry . Xx


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Mikki said:


> Send Positive Thoughts to Perry and his Fam...


Thanks - we deeply appreciate them. I'm hoping the biopsy recovery isn't too bad (no idea how traumatic it is - but they DO have to take a bone sample so I don't think it will be fun) and then wait 2 weeks for the results then schedule the surgery... I seriously need to convince the vet to let me see her face to face for all of this (I have been vaccinated so maybe she will?) Discussing all of this over the phone is not fun.



GoWithTheFlo said:


> Sorry have just read this post properly Melissa. So sorry to here about this latest setback for Perry and the heartache it is causing you having to wait it out for results. Sending good thoughts and love to you and Perry . Xx


Thanks - we appreciate all the good thoughts and vibes. Too many things all going on at the same time and this was just another thing piled on. We will push through, just dreading dealing with the jumping-est dog in the world going through back surgery recovery - trying to stop him from jumping is almost impossible no matter how short I keep him tethered to me


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

Sending love and positive thoughts and prayers for Perry and you.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

I'm so sorry for you and Perry! That's a heck of a thing to have to go through.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I’m sorry you’re going through this! I think the waiting and unknown would probably be worse than the surgery and recovery! I hope you are able to get in sooner.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I’m sorry you’re going through this! I think the waiting and unknown would probably be worse than the surgery and recovery! I hope you are able to get in sooner.


Thanks - we have an appointment for Tuesday for the biopsy and the CAT scan, then 2 weeks to wait for the results (something about the bone needing to decalcify so they can shave it thin enough to run the tests).


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

UPDATE: Perry's biopsy was yesterday and it went well, though the incisions are longer than I thought (I had hoped the biopsy would be just a small cut but one is relatively big - can't even imagine how big they wil be for the actual surgery). CAT scan results will be ready this week, Biopsy results from U Penn in 7-14 days (hopefully closer to the 7 because surgery is in 14). Surgery is scheduled for the 18th - since it has to be removed no matter what, the biopsy will tell the vet how much (in terms of margins) has to go.

He's quietly hanging out in his crate. I'm still trying to figure out how to pick him up without causing pain (since I have to make sure he doesn't jump and he can't do stairs) - almost every time I do it hurts him so much. He's on two different pain meds and has a tranq if he's too active - but I don't anticipate needing that for a few days at least. 

Kills me that just as he's feeling better in 2 weeks he'll have to go through this, but worse, again.


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

So sorry poor Perry has to go through this pain. I can imagine how hard this is on you as well, especially the waiting for the biopsy results. We will keep sending positive thoughts and prayers your way. I hope Perry feels more comfortable soon so you can at least move him around without causing him pain and that he is a good boy about keeping calm during this time. Good luck!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Oh my! Poor baby!!! 💗 😥


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)




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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

Poor little mite😔😔. I am sure all the love and affection Perry is getting from you is helping him feel better than he otherwise would be. Really feel for you both😔😘😘😘😘xx


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Makes me want to cry for both of you! 💗


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## Mando's Mommy (Dec 8, 2020)

Poor baby. 😢. Sending you and Perry hugs and positive thoughts.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Poor sweet baby boy. 😢 I will be keeping you and Perry in my thoughts. 😘


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

How awful! I am so sorry for the both of you! 😭


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## LeleRF (Feb 18, 2021)

Oh gosh, I’m so sorry you are both going through this. My heart goes out to you and poor Perry! Sending wishes that these toughest days and hours go by quickly. Sending lots of positive vibes! 🙏


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> Makes me want to cry for both of you! 💗


I was pretty close myself yesterday. They're so resilient though - this morning I decided to give him his pill and then wait 1/2 hour or so before picking him up. So far, the pain seems better - no obvious pain reaction when I pick him up. He also _almost_ did a full body shake today which he couldn't do yesterday (it was a very _slow_ shake  but full body not just shoulders and then tail  ). He also wanted to walk a little more this morning and wanted to trot instead of walk which is more him.



GoWithTheFlo said:


> Poor little mite😔😔. I am sure all the love and affection Perry is getting from you is helping him feel better than he otherwise would be. Really feel for you both😔😘😘😘😘xx





Mando's Mommy said:


> Poor baby. 😢. Sending you and Perry hugs and positive thoughts.





Heather's said:


> Poor sweet baby boy. 😢 I will be keeping you and Perry in my thoughts. 😘





Sheri said:


> How awful! I am so sorry for the both of you! 😭





LeleRF said:


> Oh gosh, I’m so sorry you are both going through this. My heart goes out to you and poor Perry! Sending wishes that these toughest days and hours go by quickly. Sending lots of positive vibes! 🙏


Thanks everyone. I felt awful yesterday, today he seems less in pain (though he's a stoic little thing).


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

This is so awful. I feel so bad for you and Perry.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> I was pretty close myself yesterday. They're so resilient though - this morning I decided to give him his pill and then wait 1/2 hour or so before picking him up. So far, the pain seems better - no obvious pain reaction when I pick him up. He also _almost_ did a full body shake today which he couldn't do yesterday (it was a very _slow_ shake  but full body not just shoulders and then tail  ). He also wanted to walk a little more this morning and wanted to trot instead of walk which is more him.
> 
> Thanks everyone. I felt awful yesterday, today he seems less in pain (though he's a stoic little thing).


They DO seem to recover from surgery amazingly quickly. After Panda’s C-section, she did have pain meds, but not strong ones, because of the puppies. And she had this HUGE abdominal incision, with a bunch of puppies nursing on her! The first couple of days, she did seem to need the pain meds. By the 3rd day, (when we had to go back to the vet for the problems of not having enough milk) the vet mentioned that she had palpated her incision and she was completely non-tender! Of course I wouldn’t have even THOUGHT of poking at it 3 days post-op!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> They DO seem to recover from surgery amazingly quickly. After Panda’s C-section, she did have pain meds, but not strong ones, because of the puppies. And she had this HUGE abdominal incision, with a bunch of puppies nursing on her! The first couple of days, she did seem to need the pain meds. By the 3rd day, (when we had to go back to the vet for the problems of not having enough milk) the vet mentioned that she had palpated her incision and she was completely non-tender! Of course I wouldn’t have even THOUGHT of poking at it 3 days post-op!


Yeah, after his leg surgery, once he figured out how to keep his balance on 3 legs, the bigger issue was keeping him quite from jumping etc. He never acted like he was in much pain that time - I imagine because you can tuck the leg up and not move it much - whereas the first day post-biopsy he was very definitely in a lot of pain, likely because you can't really move or be picked up without moving the back even if just slightly. 

I'm anticipating that by the weekend he'll be moving much more and I'll have to concentrate on making sure he doesn't jump or dance around on his back legs OR do stairs  (looking forward to that at this point). That's also where I anticipate possibly needing the cone - I ordered a soft one that should have been here already but hopefully will be here tomorrow (the reordered one). While he wouldn't be able to reach the higher one, the lower / bigger incision just may be in reach for my bendy boy. I do have a light "fleece" on him to cover it, but while I know onesies and body suits can help with some licking/ chewing - my sister's dog had surgery and was in a body suit and still managed to chew the ends off of drains that she had!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> Yeah, after his leg surgery, once he figured out how to keep his balance on 3 legs, the bigger issue was keeping him quite from jumping etc. He never acted like he was in much pain that time - I imagine because you can tuck the leg up and not move it much - whereas the first day post-biopsy he was very definitely in a lot of pain, likely because you can't really move or be picked up without moving the back even if just slightly.


I’m sure... poor guy! It has to be miserable!


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Melissa Brill said:


> So far, the pain seems better - no obvious pain reaction when I pick him up.


This is great news! We are remaining positive about his future diagnosis and recovery. I wish I was as resilient as he is!


krandall said:


> the vet mentioned that she had palpated her incision and she was completely non-tender! Of course I wouldn’t have even THOUGHT of poking at it 3 days post-op!


I don't want anyone poking my chest incision from eight months ago to see if it has palpated! This recovery thing is NOT fun.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Ok so can I change my opinion to "they're TOOOOO resilient"? Last night he contemplated jumping off the bed. Of course, I didn't let him, but I thought I'd have at least a few days before he started thinking about that - not at the end of day 2!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I don't want anyone poking my chest incision from eight months ago to see if it has palpated! This recovery thing is NOT fun.


Exactly! I had gallbladder surgery many many years ago (a complicated one with 2 different procedures) - and I was walking around holding a pillow to my abdomen for close to a month because it felt like my middle was going to fall out! But these guys - 2 days after taking tumor/ muscle/bone samples, HE is strongly considering jumping off the bed AND wants to go out running around down the road when we're on a walk.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

UPDATE: CAT scan results are back - and there are not 3 tumors, there are 6! I'm personally hoping that points to them being more probably benign but we won't know til the biopsy result is back. I got the impression though that the vet may be changing her mind about removing them in either case, but will discuss more when the biopsy is done. She's also having them look at the biopsy for strange infections since we travel so much. We will see.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Melissa Brill said:


> Exactly! I had gallbladder surgery many many years ago (a complicated one with 2 different procedures) - and I was walking around holding a pillow to my abdomen for close to a month because it felt like my middle was going to fall out! But these guys - 2 days after taking tumor/ muscle/bone samples, HE is strongly considering jumping off the bed AND wants to go out running around down the road when we're on a walk.


That's "funny" Mel (from a curious standpoint). Isn't it "FUN" when you need to sneeze, cough, or laugh too hard, and excruciating pain shoots through your body as a result of your surgery? I too have a chest pillow given to me at the hospital in recovery from my surgery. I am looking at it now. It is on a shelf in our lounge. It is a large bright red heart with some encouraging words on it, about the size of a toss pillow. RICKY is never allowed to play with it, it is MY pillow and he knows it.

Regarding dogs in general and PERRY specifically, they are amazing animals. RICKY was jumping on and off the sofa two days after his neuter surgery, to my horror. I called his VET and he laughed. He said, "That's good, he must be feeling better!" He said to check and see if there was any fresh blood at his sutures otherwise don't encourage him to jump as much as possible and bring him in for his one week follow up as scheduled. So I guess PERRY is feeling better which is a good sign. My advice to you is "check to see if there is any fresh blood at his sutures, don't encourage him to jump but don't stress over it when he does, and otherwise take him in for his scheduled follow up." You're a good boy PERRY!


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Oh I'm so sorry for you both. What an awful thing to go through. The incision photos look gruesome! I'm so sorry you (and Perry) are having to deal with this.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> Oh I'm so sorry for you both. What an awful thing to go through. The incision photos look gruesome! I'm so sorry you (and Perry) are having to deal with this.


The incisions are much bigger than I had anticipated - the vet did mention that afterwards - said that she had wanted to make sure that she got a good enough/ thorough enough sample of the bone/ tumor for the biopsy.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

So, for a touch of fun - Perry and I hated the plastic cone (after his last surgery) so I ordered a soft one... it got lost and had to re-order, and it arrived today. I don't have to use it yet - but yesterday he did try to reach the incisions (he's bendy and can reach the lower one) - so I may have to use it at some point - now or for the leg surgery. 

Strangely they don't really seem to sell plain soft ones, so you can only get the funny/ cutesy ones... So... here he is as a frog


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Melissa Brill said:


> UPDATE: CAT scan results are back - and there are not 3 tumors, there are 6! I'm personally hoping that points to them being more probably benign but we won't know til the biopsy result is back. I got the impression though that the vet may be changing her mind about removing them in either case, but will discuss more when the biopsy is done. She's also having them look at the biopsy for strange infections since we travel so much. We will see.


Oh also... in addition to the front leg surgery that's needed, his back knee has shifted despite the last surgery so that will likely need be be revised and there's something going on with his eye??? (I missed that one - except that she wants to set up a consult with the ophthalmologist) and dental "disease - that one doesn't surprise me, he does need a tooth cleaning. I imagine the eye thing might be something that you'd never know - except when you have a whole body CAT scan done . 

One thing after another - but first things first - getting the biopsy results and dealing with the tumors then the rest.


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

Thanks for the updates, 🤞🏻they will be benign and you can quickly move on to Perry’s other treatments. He sounds like he will be a brand new doggy/froggy by the end of it all🐸😘xx


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Melissa Brill said:


> Strangely they don't really seem to sell plain soft ones, so you can only get the funny/ cutesy ones... So... here he is as a frog
> 
> View attachment 174486


I can't decide if he looks like a frog OR if he looks like he is being eaten by a frog


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

The cone is adorable! I REFUSE to think of him being EATEN by a frog!!! LOL!

The CT news sounds worrisome... please keep us posted!!! But wouldn’t it be nice if it WERE an infection of some sort that could be cured with antibiotics!!!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I can’t believe that’s a biopsy incision. DS had a biopsy recently and the first time they couldn’t get it because of scar tissue. They had to do it a different way under general anesthesia and make a larger incision. But I swear there were less staples than that! They told me it’s unusual to do a biopsy that way now, usually it’s a small incision they can do it with a scope and just a couple to stitches. In fact, it’s so unusual, while he was recovering in the hospital he absently pulled out the staples and none of the nurses noticed because usually there aren’t any. Before he was released the doctor came by to look at it and asked where the staples were, and I realized I had forgotten there had been staples there, too. Thank goodness Perry can’t reach his staples! Why do you think the incision was so large? Does it just look especially large because his body is so small? 

I hope they’re benign and they can just leave them alone. You have enough to deal with already!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I can’t believe that’s a biopsy incision. DS had a biopsy recently and the first time they couldn’t get it because of scar tissue. They had to do it a different way under general anesthesia and make a larger incision. But I swear there were less staples than that! They told me it’s unusual to do a biopsy that way now, usually it’s a small incision they can do it with a scope and just a couple to stitches. In fact, it’s so unusual, while he was recovering in the hospital he absently pulled out the staples and none of the nurses noticed because usually there aren’t any. Before he was released the doctor came by to look at it and asked where the staples were, and I realized I had forgotten there had been staples there, too. Thank goodness Perry can’t reach his staples! Why do you think the incision was so large? Does it just look especially large because his body is so small?
> 
> I hope they’re benign and they can just leave them alone. You have enough to deal with already!


I think in part they look big because of how small he is. They also had to get both tumor AND bone samples from them, so I imagine that had something to do with the size. The vet did mention that she had to make the one a little bigger because she wanted to be sure to get enough of a sample to do a good biopsy on it (especially since she wants the pathologist to do samples to check for any infections that he may have gotten traveling as well to be thorough). I was surprised though because I was picturing more what they usually do with humans - making a small incision and doing a needle biopsy - but I guess having to slice off some bone means you need a little more space.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

That makes sense about the bone. I hadn’t thought about how they do bone biopsies. I didn’t realize they slice a piece off! Poor guy.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Melissa Brill said:


> UPDATE: CAT scan results are back - and there are not 3 tumors, there are 6! I'm personally hoping that points to them being more probably benign but we won't know til the biopsy result is back. I got the impression though that the vet may be changing her mind about removing them in either case, but will discuss more when the biopsy is done. She's also having them look at the biopsy for strange infections since we travel so much. We will see.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> That makes sense about the bone. I hadn’t thought about how they do bone biopsies. I didn’t realize they slice a piece off! Poor guy.


That is apparently why the biopsy takes so long - something about needing time for the bone to "decalcify". 

Right now it's more "poor mom" - while Day 1 was tough for Perry (enough pain to whimper and cry when I picked him up) by day 2 he was thinking about jumping off the bed (I didn't let him) and by day 3 he was trying to run (even though he's on a 4' leash held tight). So, trying to keep him quiet takes work . I'm so lucky though that he's so very patient in his crate, etc.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> That is apparently why the biopsy takes so long - something about needing time for the bone to "decalcify".
> 
> Right now it's more "poor mom" - while Day 1 was tough for Perry (enough pain to whimper and cry when I picked him up) by day 2 he was thinking about jumping off the bed (I didn't let him) and by day 3 he was trying to run (even though he's on a 4' leash held tight). So, trying to keep him quiet takes work . I'm so lucky though that he's so very patient in his crate, etc.


I prescribe a BIG bottle of wine!!!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

UPDATE: The biopsy results FINALLY are back (can't really complain much though - the vet sent them to U Penn for analysis - they sent them off to an orthopedic specialist to confirm the findings) AND good news - they're benign!!!!

I spoke with the vet on the phone so I have no idea how to even spell what it's called (it sounded something like multiple cataginous exoxidocese - but I can't find anything like that online) but as she described it, sometimes the bones will grow a little too much as they are developing and so they stop when they're fully grown - so he's probably had these for years and they just showed up because we hit the right angle on the xray for his leg (and missed it the last time he was xrayed). She did say that sometimes these can turn malignant as they get older (any time from 7 onward) so we will need to do yearly xrays to track them and make sure they're not growing, but for now we're good.

So, now leg surgery #2 (front left leg) is scheduled for the 8th. I was slightly annoyed because we had scheduled A surgery for last week (to book a time slot) which was either going to be tumor removal (if they were malignant) OR leg surgery (if they weren't) but since we didn't have the biopsy report back we couldn't go forward with it... and so with trying to get him on the schedule, we couldn't get it til the 8th. I do understand why, but since we have to be around for about 3 months after surgery, it's delayed any travel we can do by almost a month, but what can you do - just thankful that they were benign!

This leg surgery is going to be pretty major. The two bones in his leg have grown at different rates and have twisted. In addition, and because of that, he has arthritis in both the ankle and the knee. The goal is to try to "untwist" the leg as much as possible to improve the alignment and stability. To do that she has to cut the ulna and insert a pin (to lengthen it a bit) and then cut a wedge in the radius, turn it back as much as possible, and put a plate on it (I've asked her if it will set off the metal detectors - she doesn't think so since it will be titanium, but she's going to write me a letter to take while traveling just in case  )

Recovery time is 2-3 months (though I imagine at some point there will need to be PT as long as we're somewhere where we can do that). Interestingly, she said that she probably won't splint it (though will evaluate that after and may do it if he needs the stability given how quickly he wants to be back to normal) - and she said that she likely won't even bandage it because they see more infections when it's bandaged than when it's not. I guess I will end up getting some use out of the frog (and another black soft cone I bought) this time around.

She said that he's fine to run around and be a normal dog for the next two weeks so he's completely off restriction and is racing around the house, doing stairs, and jumping as much as he'd like because after the 8th we're on another 2-3 month crate rest/ severe restriction. 

I was calculating it - with all of his crate rests (trying to prevent CCL surgery and then after the surgery, the biopsy) he's been on restriction/ crate rest for close to 8 months of his 5 years of life. So, we'll add another 3 months for this surgery and then another 2 when we re-do his back knee (will have to see how soon we decide to do that one.) which means that by the time he turns 6 he will likely have spent a full year (cumulative) of those 6 on crate rest. Thank goodness he's pretty patient in his crate (As long as we're around - he still hates it if no one is around) but I anticipate using the tranqs a little more this time than before.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Well, SUPER news on his spine!!! Poor guy on the rest, but I guess it’s no worse than you expected! Run little guy, run! There is this vet in the UK, Noel Firzpatrick, who specializes in just this kind of surgery. There is a TV series on him, now available on YouTube, that is facinating!:


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Wow...so happy the tumors are benign and you do not have to worry about those right now!


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

So happy for the news on the biopsy! Will keep sending positive thoughts for a successful leg surgery and recovery.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Oh my that poor little guy. So sorry he and you are having to deal with all this. Regarding the bones growing too much as they are developing, it reminded me of what I was told when I had my corgi puppy. I was told not to feed her puppy food as it makes the bones grow too fast for their little short legs and heavy body. I think they said puppy food is higher in protein. I wonder if this could be the same for Havanese or any puppy. So glad the tumors are benign.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> Oh my that poor little guy. So sorry he and you are having to deal with all this. Regarding the bones growing too much as they are developing, it reminded me of what I was told when I had my corgi puppy. I was told not to feed her puppy food as it makes the bones grow too fast for their little short legs and heavy body. I think they said puppy food is higher in protein. I wonder if this could be the same for Havanese or any puppy. So glad the tumors are benign.


That's a good question - I didn't get him til 8 months old, and I don't remember doing puppy food - just a good quality food after that. Though this would be something different since it's not his overall leg length that's too much but his twisted leg - the two bones are different lengths (which contributes to the twist)


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Jackie from Concrete WA said:


> Oh my that poor little guy. So sorry he and you are having to deal with all this. Regarding the bones growing too much as they are developing, it reminded me of what I was told when I had my corgi puppy. I was told not to feed her puppy food as it makes the bones grow too fast for their little short legs and heavy body. I think they said puppy food is higher in protein. I wonder if this could be the same for Havanese or any puppy. So glad the tumors are benign.


I always thought that puppy food was specifically formulated for puppies to prevent them from growing too fast. Bones growing too fast especially in large breed dogs can be problematic. I may be wrong but this is what I always thought. It sounds like you are saying the opposite.









Puppy vs. Adult Dog Food - The Complete Breakdown


Food values for both puppies and adult dogs in a nutrient profiles based on dry matter.The major differences are in protein, fat and minerals.




dogsnpawz.com


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> Well, SUPER news on his spine!!! Poor guy on the rest, but I guess it’s no worse than you expected! Run little guy, run!


Nope, no surprise on the rest - that was the main reason we even went to the vet this time (the lesion scare turned up on the xrays for the legs) - to check out the twist on the front (it's bowing more and twisted more than the last visit) and to recheck his back leg (found out the knee had slipped and needed a "tune up"). So I had suspected that we would be doing surgery on the front leg - though I didn't realize it would be that extensive, I thought maybe it would involve fusing his wrist or something to give it more stability . The re-do on the back was a bit of a surprise but that will wait til later.


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

So pleased the biopsy results came back clear🎊🥳🎉😊😊😊😊

Bit of a downer about the major leg surgery, but at least it is the only thing Perry has to go through now, and the long term benefits will outweigh his short(ish) term bed rest😘😘. Thanks so much much for keeping us posted😊xx


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## LeleRF (Feb 18, 2021)

Thank you for sharing that very happy news on the biopsy! 🎉 I had been peeking in to see if there had been an update and was so thrilled to see it just now! I’ll be sending all good&positive vibes your way along with fellow HF folks for the upcoming surgery. 💌 🙏


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

I've been thinking about you and Perry... It's so good to hear you received happy news! Hoping that Perry will now make a fast recovery from his upcoming leg surgery. 😘


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Heather's said:


> I've been thinking about you and Perry... It's so good to hear you received happy news! Hoping that Perry will now make a fast recovery from his upcoming leg surgery. 😘


_Perry_ will think that he's made a fast recovery from his leg surgery... so Mom's job will be to slow him down and remind him that he actually hasn't . Hopefully the three months will go quickly (during his last 2-3 month crate rest I was working so I only had to be around his efforts to guilt me into taking him out of his crate part of the day).


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## Mando's Mommy (Dec 8, 2020)

I'm so glad to hear that the biopsy results are benign. Sending positive thoughts for a quick recovery to Perry (and you) after his surgery.


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