# Picking the right puppy from the litter (color/temperment)



## Nirzhar Kar

Is there a way to figure out which babies will have the best chance of being the most calm/laid back/affectionate dog as an adult? How can i analyze the litter and figure out which baby will grow up to most likely not be too energetic and hyper and instead be calmer and more laid back but very velcro type of lap dog who always wants to hang out and be next to us. Basically be super affectionate? Is there a way to tell? Perhaps just pick the baby thats calmer and is always coming towards us and hanging out instead of going hyper jumping around?


Also Is there anyways to tell what color the baby will grow up to be? When i pick my baby from the litter (probably in the next year or 2), i will definitely pick depending on temperament/personality traits that the baby is exhibiting however if multiple babies exhibit the traits i am looking for then i will then choose the color that is most appealing to me and would prefer it to stay similar to the color rather then change. So how exactly can i tell which colors will change and which wont and if so is there a way to tell what they will change to?

Brown/light brownish is probably my most preferred color. followed by any mixes of color . So if i do pick a lightish brown color, it would be good if i can tell if it will remain that color. Is this possible or is this all just a gamble? Either way it would be fine obviously but just wondering if getting the prefer color is possible to pick.

And lastly is there a website that gives most likely outcomes of the litter of certain color parent combinations?


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## MarinaGirl

Havanese often change colors. Check out this website which explains the phenomenon and gives definitions & pictures of all the color varieties.

Colours of the Rainbow


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## Bowie's Mom

I think you may be right in looking at a litter of puppies that the ones that aren't going crazy and are just hanging out with you may be the calmer more affectionate ones. The puppy will definitely choose you. As for coloring, it is a gamble. Moxie was black and white at birth, but changed to a pewter and white, still gorgeous because of structure, but not the same in coloring. There are some black and white puppies that have the Belton gene, also called ticking. The black and bright white puppy turns into a freckled salt and pepper color depending on the intensity of the gene. It's kind of like black freckles appearing on the white areas. Then there's the sables, they're the brownish/reddish pups with black tips. They tend to lose their color and turn a creamy white I think, sometimes. I think Bowie is a reddish/gold sable. He still has his black tips, but if I ever trim him they will be gone forever. His face has lightened a lot, but his body seems to be keeping his color thus far. He'll be 6 months on the 14th, I have no idea how he will turn out. There are many other combinations of colors. Online there's a site called Colors of the Rainbow that describes all the different variations. I hope I helped and I hope I my information was correct.


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## Heather's

The chocolates are one of the colors that have a tendency to lighten. Truffles was a dark chocolate as a puppy and has lightened quite a bit.


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## Molly120213

If you deal with a reputable breeder they will be the best person to tell you about the temperament of the puppies. Some breeders even pick out the puppy that each family will get, based on the family members(? young children), or experience with dogs, or whether you want to do agility, etc. My puppy was very small compared to her brothers and there was no way my breeder was going to place her in a home with very young children. As far as color goes, just be prepared for a possible color change and you won't be shocked if it does.


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## krandall

The best way to get the right temperament for your needs is to work with an excellent, experienced breeder who knows her lines and her puppies. She will have a very good idea of the temperaments in the litter. Good breeders also often temperament test their litters. Temperament testing is NOT fool-proof, but it gives a little more data and is often a good check on what the breeder is seeing in the puppies.

Trying to figure out temperament based on a visit (or even a few visits) can be a fool's errand. ALL puppies (unless they are WAY outside the norm) are wild and playful some of the time, and sleepy and cuddly other times. It's the nature of young animals. It will depend on when you see them. It's really, REALLY important to be honest with your breeder about what you want, and then trust her judgement. If you don't think you CAN trust her judgement, find another breeder.

As far as others have said, Havanese colors can be pretty tricky. Sables almost ALWAYS fade to some extent. Some less, some more. Many end up being essentially white dogs. Chocolates are also likely to fade, especially chocolate sables. Reds are more likely to maintain their color, though red sables are born VERY dark, then lighten somewhat. Still not as much as other sables, though. There is also a color called "brindle". In this color, the puppy will have black and brown "tiger stripes" at birth. They fade just the way sables do, and when their coasts start to get a bit longer, you can't see the stripes anyway. The way they do often differ from sables is that most brindles retain a black or dark mask around their mouth, nose and eyes.

The best bet in terms of remaining a specific color is black (or black and white) from a line that carries neither the silver gene nor the belton gene. The silver gene modifies the coat by adding white hair over time. Some, like my Pixel, have just a TINY sprinkle of white hairs that you have to look close to see. Others, like her sister, turn the color of a silver poodle. Someone already explained the belton gene. This one is tricky too... Some, like my Kodi remains essentially a B&W dog with a SPRINKLING of small black stripes. (which show most when the dog is wet) On others, the belton markings are so dense that all the once white areas become sooty grey as they mature. My Panda is what is now as a B&W with "clear" markings... meaning she doesn't carry the belton gene, and has no black spots sprinkled in her white area.

In general, you can tell SOMETHING about whether a puppy will lighten by looking around their eyes, under their arm pits and the roots of the hair on the coat. If the puppy has light "spectacles", or if the hair is significantly lighter in the other areas mentioned, the puppy will CERTAINLY lighten substantially. Silvering (which can be a modifying gene in any color, BTW, and I am pretty sure is the cause of Truffle's substantial lightening) can be obvious at the time puppies go home... or not. If they have only one copy of the gene, you may see no signs of it at that age. You can rarely see belton markings (again, this gene can modify color on ANY Havanese... it's just most obvious on the B&W's) at the time puppy's leave for their new homes. You really have to depend on the breeder knowing her lines. If one of the parents is a belton, it's likely that the B&W puppies in the litter will be too. How much they darken is guess-work.

All of the above is to say why it is SO important not to pick a Havanese puppy based on color... What you see is probably NOT what you are going to get by the time the dog is an adult! :laugh: The only colors definitely to be avoided by breeders are blue (which is not an allowed color) and merle (also not allowed, and linked to some major health issues) However, a reputable breeder is VERY unlikely to have merle puppies cropping up in their litters. A FEW good breeders have some Cuban stock with does, legitimately, carry blue. So they might want to place a blue puppy in a pet home, and there is no harm in that.


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## boomana

My Lola didn't start changing until she was around eight months old. She was a deep mahogany before that. She's both lightening and silvering, though some parts of her head are still really dark brown at the roots. Here she is at ten weeks, nine months, and at a year and a half, and although you really can't see in the picture, her undercoat is completely silver.


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## davetgabby

the breeder can give some tendencies on the temperament but in the end the puppy will be largely dependent and a product of it's environment. A shy puppy is not what you want , that's the main thing. Colour shouldn't even be a factor. here is an article http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/choosing-your-puppy and here http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/how-select-good-puppy


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## sprorchid

Although many folks dwell on color and gender when selecting a pup, for me, temperament out weighs both.

If you are getting a puppy, and you want a mellow adult, don't expect that to happen till age 3-4 or more.

Like folks have already said, the breeder should be your guide to the right fit for your household.

Of course YOU have a lot to do with how your pup will turn out as an adult.

For me, there were only 3 boys in the litter. I wanted a boy, because my other dog at the time was female. I know I didn't want the alpha (it was obvious which pup was the alpha of the litter). and I personally did a couple of the test items from the link below, but my Ollie showed the most interest in me, so that's why I picked him and not his non-alpha brother. good luck.

Volhard Dog Training and Nutrition: Behavior and Training: Behavior


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## krandall

davetgabby said:


> the breeder can give some tendencies on the temperament but in the end the puppy will be largely dependent and a product of it's environment. A shy puppy is not what you want , that's the main thing. Colour shouldn't even be a factor. here is an article Choosing Your Puppy | Dog Star Daily and here How to Select a Good Puppy | Dog Star Daily


Largely, but not completely. It is NOT completely "nature" it's not completely "nurture". It is a very mixed up combination of the two. So many of the dogs in rescue get there because, Basically, they have poor dispositions. Not all, by ANY means. But many of them. IMO, good breeders breed for health and disposition above ALL else.


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## krandall

I actually prefer the temperament test in The Focused Puppy over the Volhard. (by quite a lot) I find that it is more nuanced, and more targeted to performance and companion dogs, where the Volhard covers the whole range, from working protection dog breeds on down the list. We need a finer instrument for well bred Havanese, because they are ALL likely to be too close to center on the Volhard.


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## davetgabby

krandall said:


> Largely, but not completely. It is NOT completely "nature" it's not completely "nurture". It is a very mixed up combination of the two. So many of the dogs in rescue get there because, Basically, they have poor dispositions. Not all, by ANY means. But many of them. IMO, good breeders breed for health and disposition above ALL else.


I have to differ with you on this Karen. Although genetics plays a role in innate breed traits, it is not near as important a factor in personality/temperament behavior. Many if not most of the behaviors that put dogs in rescue and puounds are due to very easily prevented by behavioral training. Most behaviorists agree with what Ian Dunbar says here ... Why Don?t We Adequately Socialize Young Puppies With People? | Dog Star Daily


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## davetgabby

Even genes can be modified https://www.puppyculture.com/shape-shifting-genes.html


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## davetgabby

krandall said:


> I actually prefer the temperament test in The Focused Puppy over the Volhard. (by quite a lot) I find that it is more nuanced, and more targeted to performance and companion dogs, where the Volhard covers the whole range, from working protection dog breeds on down the list. We need a finer instrument for well bred Havanese, because they are ALL likely to be too close to center on the Volhard.


Not often that I differ with Karen but twice in one thread LOL Yeah I don't put much faith in puppy ./temperament tests for these reasons . Older age temp. tests yes

Companion Animal Psychology: Do Puppy Tests Predict Adult Dog Behaviour?

Genetics, behavior, and puppy temperament testing - The Institute of Canine Biology

Puppy Testing | Dog Star Daily

Myths About Puppies

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10888705.2015.1127765?journalCode=haaw20


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## krandall

davetgabby said:


> I have to differ with you on this Karen. Although genetics plays a role in innate breed traits, it is not near as important a factor in personality/temperament behavior. Many if not most of the behaviors that put dogs in rescue and puounds are due to very easily prevented by behavioral training. Most behaviorists agree with what Ian Dunbar says here ... Why Don?t We Adequately Socialize Young Puppies With People? | Dog Star Daily


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Early training is absolutely critical, but innate temperament does matter too.


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## krandall

davetgabby said:


> Not often that I differ with Karen but twice in one thread LOL Yeah I don't put much faith in puppy ./temperament tests for these reasons . Older age temp. tests yes
> 
> Companion Animal Psychology: Do Puppy Tests Predict Adult Dog Behaviour?
> 
> Genetics, behavior, and puppy temperament testing - The Institute of Canine Biology
> 
> Puppy Testing | Dog Star Daily
> 
> Myths About Puppies
> 
> http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10888705.2015.1127765?journalCode=haaw20


I was very clear in what I wrote that temperament testing is NOT the be-all and end-all of choosing the "right" puppy. Far from it. It IS, IMO, a useful tool, and gives you good information about how a puppy innately interacts with his environment. For instance, if you have a puppy who is not crazy about working for food and training is important to you, that is something you will need to work harder to develop. A very bold puppy who is innately a bit less people oriented might be perfect for one trainer, while the very people-oriented "softer" dog (like Kodi) is a better choice for someone else. Neither is "bad" or "good", but it is useful information for making the right choices, both in choosing the puppy AND in focusing on varying parts of the dog's education.

Otherwise, what do you suggest? (especially since precious few breeders even know what "Puppy Culture is, let alone follow it) Go back to having choose a puppy based on a picture? Not for me. No thanks.

BTW, I have three dogs, all raised more or less the same way. (and two raised by the same breeder before me, so pretty much the "same program", start to finish) Each one is very much an individual, with different strengths and weaknesses in terms of training an just "living with" them. (incidentally this is also completely true of my sons... They showed different "personalities" even before they were born, in terms of how the "behaved" in utero... They are both fine young men, but both are very different people and both tested different parenting sills as hey were growing up)


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## Pamela Oryshchyn

Can you get recent photos of parents and grandparents? That is the best way to see the genes this litter has, already expressed. You can get a sense if they carry for silver and/or grey and to what extent. Those two genes will play the largest role in how much a pup will lighten over time. Silver happens like grow out from hair dye and grey happens to dogs just like it does to us... a strand at a time. They are different genes but a dog can carry both. Also they can carry one or two of each gene, which effects how quickly they will turn. 

For temperament, again, look to the lines. spend some time with the parents if you can, at least mom. The one biggest indicator in a puppies temperament will be it's mother. she contributes half the genes and controls the environment.


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## Nirzhar Kar

I do have pics of parents and am welcome to visit anytime to see them in person. The father is pretty much a all black with osme white. And the mom is just about all white. At least from pics. The babies however are all shades of brown. But I assume most will change.


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## davetgabby

not saying they don't have any value, it's just that many tests don't produce accurate results. I posted a couple of articles for ideas on what to look for in a puppy. Patricia McConnell says ... "I promise you that there is simply no way to know who this little pup will be when he gets older."


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## KarMar

Nino's breeder spent a lot of time with us on one of our first visits going over what we were looking for in a puppy. I wanted a dog that was high energy, but would also not be a pest to Mario, our 9 year old, so nothing too wild. I wanted a prospective sport dog, so a confident, biddable, focused dog was necessary. I also expressed an interest in showing. She does her own temperament evaluations, but she also brings in a group of breed experts, expresses in detail what the buyers were looking for, and has them meet the puppies one at a time, each separately. They then discuss, and she selects the puppy for each buyer. She hit a home run with the placement of Nino.

As far as colors go, it varies. Mario changed TONS, and Nino hasn't changed a bit. What others have said is pretty sufficient information. I would never choose a puppy based on color...I just got lucky in that Nino is my favorite coloring and has some striking markings.


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## Pamela Oryshchyn

Nirzhar Kar said:


> I do have pics of parents and am welcome to visit anytime to see them in person. The father is pretty much a all black with osme white. And the mom is just about all white. At least from pics. The babies however are all shades of brown. But I assume most will change.


Is the pigment of the noses black or brown? whichever color the pigment is will determine if the puppy is a chocolate. black pigment with brown coat = havana brown brown pigment with any color coat = chocolate havanese.

you can look up pictures online to get an idea of what each looks like if they are going to silver or grey with time. Is Dad still all black or has his color softened over time?


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## Nirzhar Kar

So if the parents nose is brown or black then the litter should be different shades of brown?


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## Molly120213

Only Chocolate Havanese will have brown nose color. All others will have the black pigment. Here is a picture of my Molly and her brothers. You can see that one litter can have a variety of coat colors. There were two black and white parti, one black and tan, and four sables. The sables started out with a brown coat which lightened considerably over time. These dogs are all a light cream color now. Some have retained some dark tipping of their ears or other spots.


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## krandall

Pamela Oryshchyn said:


> Can you get recent photos of parents and grandparents? That is the best way to see the genes this litter has, already expressed. You can get a sense if they carry for silver and/or grey and to what extent. Those two genes will play the largest role in how much a pup will lighten over time. Silver happens like grow out from hair dye and grey happens to dogs just like it does to us... a strand at a time. They are different genes but a dog can carry both. Also they can carry one or two of each gene, which effects how quickly they will turn.
> 
> For temperament, again, look to the lines. spend some time with the parents if you can, at least mom. The one biggest indicator in a puppies temperament will be it's mother. she contributes half the genes and controls the environment.


Good point about looking at parents as far as temperament is concerned... This is exceedingly important. (though I have also seen temperament flaws skip a generation) The problem with looking at mom while she has a litter is that even the bet tempered bitch will be markedly different when she has pups... At best, distracted from people and focused on her pups... at worse, resource guards about her babies in the presence of strangers, even if she is not this way at all without babies. If she is lovely and stable even when she has puppies, that's fantastic. But the opposite doesn't necessarily tell you much. I would, however, avoid a litter from a bitch who was EXCESSIVELY nervous, or at all aggressive when she has puppies, as this behavior rubs off on the puppies.

As far as color genes are concerned, I have never heard or red about a "grey" gene in Havanese. Can you tell me where this information comes from? I have seen the two patterns of silver coming in that you mention. I was under the assumption that the ones that change more suddenly probably had a doubling up of the silver gene, while those where their hair changes strand by strand (and usually over a longer period of time) had a single copy of the silver gene. Or at least that is how it has been explained to me. Of course, it's also true that there are a WHOLE BUNCH of color modifying genes in Havanese that we don't know a lot about at all!


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## krandall

Nirzhar Kar said:


> So if the parents nose is brown or black then the litter should be different shades of brown?


Brown noses are ONLY acceptable on chocolates. ALL other colors should have solid black noses and eye rims. Depending on the genes the parents carry, you CAN get a litter with chocolates and blacks. If both parents carry for chocolate, they will, themselves, look black (or B&W) But a certain percentage of their offspring are likely to be chocolate. What SHADE of chocolate, and how much white each puppy has is determined by other genes. (that we don't know much about)


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## Pamela Oryshchyn

Nirzhar Kar said:


> So if the parents nose is brown or black then the litter should be different shades of brown?


Sorry to be so confusing in my answer. The best way I've found to understand all the wonderful color variation in the Havanese is to first break it down by the pigment:

Black is standard
Brown is called chocolate.

From there the coat color determines the rest of the "color" and any combination can happen in either standard black or chocolate. For example, you can have an irish pied havanese with either black or brown pigment. the markings would be the same but the chocolate one would be some version of brown with brown pigment. (a chocolate havanese can't make black pigment)

clear as mud?


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## Pamela Oryshchyn

krandall said:


> ...The problem with looking at mom while she has a litter is that even the bet tempered bitch will be markedly different when she has pups... ...
> 
> As far as color genes are concerned, I have never heard or red about a "grey" gene in Havanese. Can you tell me where this information comes from? I have seen the two patterns of silver coming in that you mention. I was under the assumption that the ones that change more suddenly probably had a doubling up of the silver gene, while those where their hair changes strand by strand (and usually over a longer period of time) had a single copy of the silver gene. Or at least that is how it has been explained to me. Of course, it's also true that there are a WHOLE BUNCH of color modifying genes in Havanese that we don't know a lot about at all!


GREAT point about mom's behavior being different when she has babies, I hadn't thought of that. I wonder how much our super mellow Sadie will change when she has puppies? It will be interesting for sure!

Here is a page on the greying gene:

Genetics - G locus


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## krandall

Pamela Oryshchyn said:


> GREAT point about mom's behavior being different when she has babies, I hadn't thought of that. I wonder how much our super mellow Sadie will change when she has puppies? It will be interesting for sure!
> 
> Here is a page on the greying gene:
> 
> Genetics - G locus


While I haven't bred my own dogs, I have been around a lot of bitches with their litters now, and even those who know me VERY well, and are VERY sweet and lovey without babies, are distracted and distant when they have a litter.

I think it also depends somewhat on the breed, and Havanese are better at handling "outsiders" when they have a litter than some breeds. I have a friend who are her Toller bitch. I know this girl very, VERY well, and usually she is all wags and kisses when I see her. While she had puppies, she was very suspicious, and even growled at me. I spent a LOT of time paying attention to her, telling her what a lovely mom she was and feeding her tidbits, and she finally decided that I was an "OK" person to visit her pups. When the potential new puppy owners (Who Teya didn't know) came to visit, Teya had to be shut in another room for safety. And Tollers are NOT an aggressive breed in general, and Teya is a sweet, SWEET girl under normal circumstances.


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## krandall

Pamela Oryshchyn said:


> Here is a page on the greying gene:
> Genetics - G locus


That is what I know as "silver". (and what most of the Havanese breeders I know call silver... it's the same gene as seen in silver Poodles) What is the gene for what you are calling silver.


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## Pamela Oryshchyn

krandall said:


> That is what I know as "silver". (and what most of the Havanese breeders I know call silver... it's the same gene as seen in silver Poodles) What is the gene for what you are calling silver.


Genetics - V locus

The two (grey and silver) aren't mutually exclusive and are both dominant which is part of why so many havanese lighten over time.


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## krandall

Pamela Oryshchyn said:


> Genetics - V locus
> 
> The two (grey and silver) aren't mutually exclusive and are both dominant which is part of why so many havanese lighten over time.


Interesting. Thanks for the link.

That must account for the (many) blacks that fade as they get older. (fortunately, mine haven't... That's another one I'd like to avoid!  )


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## Nirzhar Kar

Molly120213 said:


> Only Chocolate Havanese will have brown nose color. All others will have the black pigment. Here is a picture of my Molly and her brothers. You can see that one litter can have a variety of coat colors. There were two black and white parti, one black and tan, and four sables. The sables started out with a brown coat which lightened considerably over time. These dogs are all a light cream color now. Some have retained some dark tipping of their ears or other spots.


Very cute pic !


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## Heather's

Thanks for the information. I guess Truffles is a dark chocolate silver.


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## Tom King

I'm mostly staying out of this converstation, but will add this that I copied and pasted from emails that Pam sent out today to families getting our current puppies.

A lot of people want the results of the puppy tests mentioned earlier in the thread. Pam does do them, but mostly to appease the people who expect them, and to see if they correspond to what she already knows about them. I don't think a single temperament test has changed what she already thought about one yet.

Here's the copy and paste of part of the email: edited to add-I don't know why all those asteriks are in there. They weren't in the original, but I'm not taking time to take them out.

I have had several*of the new owners*ask*if I could describe*the pups individual*personalities at this point, so I thought I should send this update on what the pups are up to now....

The pups are*just 4-1/2 weeks old.* Personalities will develop as response to stimulus develops.* This is what is meant by what's called "socialization" and that's the phase we are in now. We are too early in the process of exposing the pups to different stimuli to see personality differences to any great extent.* They mostly all respond in the same way*initially.

*At this age I am exposing them to a variety of sounds (music boxes, bell toys, crunchy toys, food dishes clanging, doors closing, vacuum cleaner, etc.) and tactile experiences (things to climb over, different surfaces, chew toys).** *I also visit the pens often and encourage interaction from them.* 

There are some differences,*such as some being slower to approach than others, or some who don't like to be on their backs more than others (a spatial sensitivity) so I work with those pups to improve those coping skills.* After they have all gone through the same experiences*and have had a chance to*develop coping skills (which they learn at different rates)*then you can start to see personalities come out.** Reacting individually in different ways to stimulus*is still a few weeks away.* 

Right now they are fat happy pups that seem to all be interested in new things by wagging tails and play bows.* They*wrestle and growl at each other and of course mouth everything.* They will let out an occasional bark, which is so funny how much that startles them!** This week, as soon as the freezing temps have passed,* I will be moving them to ex pens where they will have more room to play and interact with more things.*


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## KarMar

Tom mentioned sound socialization...my first time visiting Nino's litter, I couldn't help but laugh when I came into a house with an old Western playing in the living room. As a result, though, we have one tough pup when it comes to noise.


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