# What can be expected from a good breeder?



## puppyluv1974 (Dec 4, 2013)

I have read this forum's very helpful sections on finding a reputable breeder and have learned a lot. I still have a question or two.

In my quest for the right breeder, I have come across the "sales contract." I have no problem with this and expect any reputable, HFC breeder to have one.

Questions:

When a breeder makes certain promises such as, "Fully guaranteeing that all reasonable precaution has been taken in regards to the health of the parents of this puppy and that they have received and passed tests including but not limited to Cerf, Heart, Patella, and Elbow," should I be given proof of this BEFORE making final payment and picking up my puppy to go home?

Should I expect a 2 year health guarantee and detail on what that means? And if this is not in the agreement, should I request this?

What vaccinations should be given to my pup if I am bringing it home at 10 weeks of age? Is there a standard? For example, should I expect de-worming? What about Hepatitis? Or is DPP the minimum? And again, should proof of this and a clean bill of health be seen by me before I bring home my pup?

I have given the breeder a large deposit. Now they have asked me for the balance 1 month before bringing home the pup. Is this standard? I have told them that I would bring the balance when I return.

I appreciate any advice I get. Thank you so much!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

puppyluv1974 said:


> I have read this forum's very helpful sections on finding a reputable breeder and have learned a lot. I still have a question or two.
> 
> In my quest for the right breeder, I have come across the "sales contract." I have no problem with this and expect any reputable, HFC breeder to have one.
> 
> ...


There is really no "standard" contract... There is just what ever you and the breeder agree on. If the breeder says certain tests are done on the parents, then she should be willing to prove it, preferrably by having registered the results with OFA, where tou can look it up yourself.

"Guarantees" vary widely, from a one year life threatening genetic disorder only guarantee that will only provide for replacement of the sick puppy after it is returned to the breeder, (pretty useless IMO, since very few people will return a puppy they have become attached to) to a contract like mine that says the breeder will help with medical expenses up to the purchase price of the puppy for any genetic disorder period. No time limit. But honestly, my breeder's contract is better than most.

Here is Jean dodd's vaccine protocol. This is what most Havanese breeders and owners follow:


__
https://66693331640%2Fdodds-dog-vaccination-protocol-2013-2014%23.Uzd4bX-9KSM

Honestly, i can't remember whether Kodi had been dewormed when I got him. I know he didn't have any parasites when I took him for his check-up with the vet when I brought him home. So I'd say that's the bottom line. You want a healthy puppy, and the breeder should do what's needed to deliver healthy puppies to their new owners, to the best of their ability.

While, of course, you want to bring home a healthy puppy, I honestly wouldn't want to take the breeder's word for that. Most contracts require you to take the puppy to your local vet within a couple of days of getting the puppy home, and to immediately report any problems to the breeder. This way, both you and the breeder are covered that they have delivered a healthy puppy.

I haven't heard of a breeder who wanted the full purchase price before you pick up the puppy. That doesn't seem right. OTOH, i wouldn't be surprised if the breeder wanted cash or a bank check before giving you the puppy.

Hope that helps!


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## puppyluv1974 (Dec 4, 2013)

Thank you for your response. I've emailed the breeder and asked for the Reg #'s of the puppy's parents so I can view their testing on offa.org. If they cannot give me this then, well... I guess I'll cross that bridge when it comes.


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## puppyluv1974 (Dec 4, 2013)

UPDATE! I got a quick reply from my breeder! I'm told that they will have to scan and email me the father's testing results b/c they were issued by Offa but for some reason they did not post them. The breeder promised me they are writing them and getting that corrected.

This is what they said regarding the pup's mother: She "came into heat at the time she was booked for hips so we have to wait for a couple of months. You can’t do hips near heats as their bones are softer then. Both her parents were done. Her Parents are____________ __________ (hips excellent) and _____ _____ ____ (hips good). My vet has checked the female's heart and patellas, I just haven’t sent in the forms to Offa but I will do so as soon as I can. He is here next saturday and I will get him to issue a health certificate for (female) so you have something in writing until the certificates come back from Offa. She and _____ (the father) are scheduled for this years eye test on the 15th. To me the important thing is always getting the test done and getting the results. I have been bad at sending forms in and I apologize for that. I will get the situation sorted out as soon as I can. You have absolutely nothing to worry about the health of ____ (puppy). She will come with a puppy wellness checklist. If you would like to talk to my vet, I am sure I can arrange that."

Ok so that's where I'm at. I have the both the parents' names now but it doesn't help me, does it? Any advice?


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

puppyluv1974 said:


> UPDATE! I got a quick reply from my breeder! I'm told that they will have to scan and email me the father's testing results b/c they were issued by Offa but for some reason they did not post them. The breeder promised me they are writing them and getting that corrected.
> 
> This is what they said regarding the pup's mother: She "came into heat at the time she was booked for hips so we have to wait for a couple of months. You can't do hips near heats as their bones are softer then. Both her parents were done. Her Parents are____________ __________ (hips excellent) and _____ _____ ____ (hips good). My vet has checked the female's heart and patellas, I just haven't sent in the forms to Offa but I will do so as soon as I can. He is here next saturday and I will get him to issue a health certificate for (female) so you have something in writing until the certificates come back from Offa. She and _____ (the father) are scheduled for this years eye test on the 15th. To me the important thing is always getting the test done and getting the results. I have been bad at sending forms in and I apologize for that. I will get the situation sorted out as soon as I can. You have absolutely nothing to worry about the health of ____ (puppy). She will come with a puppy wellness checklist. If you would like to talk to my vet, I am sure I can arrange that."
> 
> Ok so that's where I'm at. I have the both the parents' names now but it doesn't help me, does it? Any advice?


 I think I read your trend on Havanese Talk. That breeder is sounding a bit irresponsible IMO. One they have 18 dogs. Two a responsible breeder waits to breed after age two. It takes that long for them to develop. And she shouldn't be having puppy's. I would ask how old the mom is? With that many dogs why allow the bitch to breed before the test?. It is good to go back 5 generations to insure the health tests. So you can request and have someone help you go over the tests she has had done. I am getting a funny feeling about this breeder. I also think its weird to have to pay the full amount before you actually pick up the puppy. Here in Oregon you can get a puppy from a reputable Breeder who shows and doesn't breed unless her breeding pairs have their championship for $1,600 and less. I know different areas of the country have higher prices. where are you located and would he she give you your deposit back?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

puppyluv1974 said:


> UPDATE! I got a quick reply from my breeder! I'm told that they will have to scan and email me the father's testing results b/c they were issued by Offa but for some reason they did not post them. The breeder promised me they are writing them and getting that corrected.
> 
> This is what they said regarding the pup's mother: She "came into heat at the time she was booked for hips so we have to wait for a couple of months. You can't do hips near heats as their bones are softer then. Both her parents were done. Her Parents are____________ __________ (hips excellent) and _____ _____ ____ (hips good). My vet has checked the female's heart and patellas, I just haven't sent in the forms to Offa but I will do so as soon as I can. He is here next saturday and I will get him to issue a health certificate for (female) so you have something in writing until the certificates come back from Offa. She and _____ (the father) are scheduled for this years eye test on the 15th. To me the important thing is always getting the test done and getting the results. I have been bad at sending forms in and I apologize for that. I will get the situation sorted out as soon as I can. You have absolutely nothing to worry about the health of ____ (puppy). She will come with a puppy wellness checklist. If you would like to talk to my vet, I am sure I can arrange that."
> 
> Ok so that's where I'm at. I have the both the parents' names now but it doesn't help me, does it? Any advice?


Honestly, it would concern me that she is that lax with something that is very inexpensive to do. (the filing&#8230; the testing is the expensive part) She also told you that both parents were fully health tested, but when you called her on it, it turns out that the female is not, and that neither is registered with OFFA. Not saying that she's doing this, but it's not hard to doctor a form that is then going to be photocopied. It's fine that the parents are being CERFED on the 15th&#8230; does she have LAST year's CERF? It should be done annually and, again, sent in to OFFA.

And as far as talking to her vet is concerned? Is he REALLY going to say something bad about a client who brings a lot of business into his practice? Something to think about.

If the dam's parents have good (or better) hips, chances are that the puppy will too. It's not a guarantee, but it''s not a guarantee even if both parents have excellent hips on file. The other thing about hips is that while dysplasia is CERTAINLY something you want to avoid in a breeding dog, our little dogs just don't put the strain on their hips that a large breed dog does. So few pet Havanese would ever show clinical lameness unless their hips were very bad indeed. (though I would avoid this if you are looking to do sports with the dog)

Suzi added some other information that you didn't post here&#8230; if that is accurate, it also gives pause. She does have a lot of dogs, and Suzi mentioned that she doesn't show? Neither of this pair have their championships?

There are occasions when a breeder decides to do a "test breeding" on a bitch who comes into heat shortly before her 2nd birthday. (so before final xrays can be done) This would be based on preliminary hip xrays, taken after 1 year, which do pick up most, but not all incidents of hip problems. It doesn't sound like even that was done with this bitch. And if this IS done, that information should be made available to the puppy buyers.

All of these things are things YOU need to decide how to weight, based on what else you know about this breeder and these puppies. She might breed perfectly nice dogs and just be a ditz about paperwork. Only you can make the final decision whether it is worth the risk.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

I just remembered one thing I learned or was told who knows if its true because I don't have experience. But it is rare that tests get the excellent score so if that is filed and true that's good. I don't understand why she hasn't the results for the male she used? She cant use going into heat as an excuse for him.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Karen I have no idea if the breeder shows I never said they don't. I did give an example of what a Havanese costs here in Oregon with all the health testing and parents who were brought to their championship. Their is also a point that even the best breeders around sometimes breed without a championship. Just like they will breed without the two year hip test. I just don't like the 18 dogs. I feel sorry for dogs who are bought for the sole purpose of making their owner money. What kind of live is that. But then I couldn't sell a bitch that is retired either. Maybe that's why this breeder has 18 .


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

puppyluv1974 said:


> I have given the breeder a large deposit. Now they have asked me for the balance 1 month before bringing home the pup. Is this standard? I have told them that I would bring the balance when I return.


To me asking for full payment *one month before* you pick up your puppy is a huge red flag. I've never heard of a reputable breeder doing that. When I got Emmie, I paid in full the day I picked her up.

Note that I almost got a puppy from a BYB in Auburn, CA; paid a deposit but then I got suspicious after doing more research on the Internet so I backed out (and eventually got my deposit back after filing a complaint with Visa).

Good luck with your decision. 

-Jeanne-


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## puppyluv1974 (Dec 4, 2013)

First things first: THANK YOU to all who are supporting me here!! Wow.

I should clear up that the breeder does have some show dogs. The father has won some confirmation thing but I don't believe the mother has. She hasn't been shown at all. BTW, I have really done some digging here and it hasn't been easy. I'm out of my element!!

BTW, I _have _enlisted the help of the havanesetalk forum as well so you may have seen my postings there.

Everyone is bringing up valid points. I feel very bad about making poor choices and positioning myself and my husband in such an emotionally vulnerable place. The process of finding the right puppy and a good breeder has taken way too long and now this? I'm so mad at myself. And at the breeder, quite frankly. She lied to me. She said all this was DONE.

Ok, so now what? I will contact the breeder and let her know that we prefer to wait and see the father's testing after she's posted it to offa.org. How long should that take if his eyes are being tested on the 15th? There is SOME info on the site for this dog, but not since 2011, and heart and eyes are not shown there at all. Does that mean they were never done?. Talking to her vet is useless. You guys are right: he won't bite the hand that feeds him!

As for info on the female, do you think I should be so bold as to voice my concern over her breeding a young dog that was never tested? No one disputes that was bad. Scolding her will cause ripples. But part of me feels like this isn't a dog worth $1800 anymore. I'm meant to pick it up and bring her home at the end of April.

*sigh*


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

puppyluv1974 said:


> First things first: THANK YOU to all who are supporting me here!! Wow.
> 
> I should clear up that the breeder does have some show dogs. The father has won some confirmation thing but I don't believe the mother has. She hasn't been shown at all. BTW, I have really done some digging here and it hasn't been easy. I'm out of my element!!
> 
> ...


I don't think scolding the breeder will do ANYTHING positive. She won't listen to you&#8230; from her perspective, why should she?

It doesn't mean that the testing was never done just because it's not listed with OFFA. It means that she never submitted the testing. There is no way of knowing for sure whether she did it or not until it is recorded with OFFA. You are just taking her word for it.

What makes a dog worth $1800? I assume she will be spayed and used as a pet. So her intrinsic value is no more (or less) than any other spayed pet. Would you want this dog at a bargain basement price? You are making a 15 or 16 year investment here. I can't tell you what to do&#8230; you need to make your own decision about that. I CAN tell you what I would do, however.

I would assume that you probably paid about $500 deposit? If not, you can readjust this math, but I think you'll get the point. $500 spread over 16 years is a little more than $30 per year. Is it worth going home with the wrong dog, from the wrong breeder, who could have expensive and/or debilitating health problems, a difficult personality or poor early socialization for $30 per year? For me, the answer would be a resounding "NO!" I'd cut my losses if she wouldn't give me my deposit back and go find myself a breeder who does things the right way.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I'm just happy buyer are getting savvy. Lots of great points. If I was going to spend 2000 on a puppy, I would go with a hobby breeder. One who shows, socializes, does ALL required health testing and starts housebreaking pups. If a breeder isn't doing all those things, they shouldn't be selling their pups for such a high price…..IMO….


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## puppyluv1974 (Dec 4, 2013)

You all make good sense and give good advise! I have already emailed the breeder and let her know that I will take the puppy under the condition she alter her sales agreement.

Like you said, maybe the tests are all done and simply not posted, right?

I requested that the testing results all be posted to offa.org within the next 2 months. Reasonable? I requested that if either parent dog fail a test, that she guarantee my pup for the next three years in the area of failure. That she be responsible for any incurred vet costs if my pup falls ill in that failed area(s). Maximum $1800.

But, I said, this should not be a problem for her because as she's told us, the parent dogs are going to pass these tests. 

I really really want this puppy. I fell in love quickly and so did my sweet husband. But the decision is now hers and the ball is in her court. It's out of my hands. If you're curious as to what happens I can keep you posted.

Thank you again!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

You are always welcome here, no matter what you decide!


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## puppyluv1974 (Dec 4, 2013)

It’s over. The breeder refused our suggestion of meeting halfway. Last night her email came to us fast and furious. Hate mail. Angry, indignant and defensive, she told us that she will be mailing our deposit to us. Hoorary. There is no comfort there. 

We’re crushed and my head is spinning. It’s so amazing to me the range of emotions we’ve been through in such a short time. Yesterday we felt so upbeat and positive about our letter to her and the suggestion of meeting half way. We reassured her of our belief in her word that the tests would be fine and this was a fair and equitable compromise, given the time-line we were forced into. Now this. I actually feel punched in the gut.

My posting here has been kind regarding this breeder because I want to be careful not to write anything while feeling so emotional. Details and nuances to this story could be very incriminating for her. I need to step away from this and regain perspective. One thing I know to be true: she is not a good person.

What is the protocol on naming names here?

Thank you again to everyone who supported us.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

You can name the breeders name. It helps others who live in the area to stay away from certain breeders. She knew she couldn't hold to the 2 mo and was not truthful about the testing. If she was a confident experienced breeder the added three year on hips and such shouldn't have been a problem. IMO


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Ishttp://www.cubandog.com/ this breeder close to you ?


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

puppyluv1974 - I'm so sorry to hear what you're going through. Sounds like you've definitely dodged a bullet and now you know more to enable you to find the right breeder and Havanese for your family. I went through something similar; I had suspicions about my first breeder and when I asked legitimate questions her responses were awful. I was so upset about it but then I later found an awesome breeder and the puppy of my dreams. We're here to support you.  You made the right decision presenting your concerns to the breeder and the fact that she reacted the way she did proves your concerns were valid.

All the best,
Jeanne


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I think you should be breathing a sigh of relief, even if it was an unpleasant "scene". If she was that unwilling to talk things through with you, how much support would she have given you once you had the puppy?

Remember, you weren't in love with this puppy… you hadn't even met her yet. You were just in love with the IDEA of this puppy. Waiting a little longer to find the right breeder with the RIGHT puppy will make the experience all the sweeter when the time comes!

As far as naming names… There is nothing here against it. However try, if possible, to keep emotions out of it and just state the facts as you know them. That way, there is absolutely nothing she can call you on.


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## puppyluv1974 (Dec 4, 2013)

I wonder if the pres of the HFC would be interested in seeing some of my emails. This breeder is a voting member.

(I need to wait before talking to anyone though. I cannot let my emotions get the better of me.)


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