# What age did you start puppy or beg. classes?



## KarmaKat (Feb 19, 2010)

I am in process of arranging training classes for my soon-to-be home Hav... (we want to go thru Canine Good Citizen at a minimum - the rest depends on puppy)

But I am becoming confused about what age to start.

Can you tell me what age you took puppy or beg. classes with your havs and if you feel it was too soon, too late, or timing wasn't that crucial. 

I appreciate any input on this  Thank you, Tracey (KarmaKat)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KarmaKat said:


> I am in process of arranging training classes for my soon-to-be home Hav... (we want to go thru Canine Good Citizen at a minimum - the rest depends on puppy)
> 
> But I am becoming confused about what age to start.
> 
> ...


Kodi was around 15 weeks when we started puppy classes. (We got him when he was 11 weeks. He is my first dog, and I was very worried about the possibility of him picking something up from other dogs before he'd had all his puppy shots.

That was fine, because he's a very outgoing guy, and I put a LOT of effort into keeping him socialized with dogs I knew were up to date on their shots, and I had a trainer come to the house to help us get started with basic clicker training, sit, down, hand targeting, etc. I think, though, that the general thinking these days is to get a puppy started in classes as soon as possible, to give them as much socialization as possible. Just make sure you pick a reputable training center that requires puppies to be up to date on vaccinations before attending school, and that keeps the facilities nice and clean.

Welcome to the forum, and welcome to the world of Hav puppies! The people at our training center are so impressed with Kodi and how fast he has learned. We're having a blast together, and I'm sure you and your puppy will too!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I agree with Karen , the earlier the better, here is AVSAB 's position statement. http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/puppy socialization.pdf


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## KarmaKat (Feb 19, 2010)

Thank you for your replies. I am having a hard time finding classes. One place I like requires three sets of shots before training in a group. It looks like a very clean facility and they have supervised indoor play sessions also. 

There seems varied opinions about how close the vaccines (2nd and third set) can be given? And I assume I should add a few days recovery time after the 3rd set before taking to a group class?

There is a gap in start dates. So I almost have to go early (12 weeks if shots can even be done by then) or wait until about 17 weeks to start. Maybe she will let me skip the first week or so of the early class. Would that be a bad idea?

I guess Petsmart might be another option. I haven't checked the vaccine requirements. The one closest to my house is very clean, but they do get a lot of dog traffic. Not sure how safe I would feel there.


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## KarmaKat (Feb 19, 2010)

Oh my gosh... one of my first choice places just added a class that the timing works well! I am going to register right now.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

KarmaKat said:


> Thank you for your replies. I am having a hard time finding classes. One place I like requires three sets of shots before training in a group. It looks like a very clean facility and they have supervised indoor play sessions also.
> 
> There seems varied opinions about how close the vaccines (2nd and third set) can be given? And I assume I should add a few days recovery time after the 3rd set before taking to a group class?
> 
> ...


 Glad you found one , four months is too late. I realize certain paranoid trainers require all shots ,but I would look for one that only requires just the first set, like AVSAB recommends. No offense but Petsmart classes are not the best in general .


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

First, I don't think it is every to late for any training! I would agree with petsmart sometimes but reality is any class is only as good as the trainer so drop in on a class and see if you like that trainer's methods and how the class is controlled. I have two dogs that didn't go to puppy classes till older in life but I made sure I socialized them myself. They are both great dogs but they came to me great as well


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KarmaKat said:


> Thank you for your replies. I am having a hard time finding classes. One place I like requires three sets of shots before training in a group. It looks like a very clean facility and they have supervised indoor play sessions also.
> 
> There seems varied opinions about how close the vaccines (2nd and third set) can be given? And I assume I should add a few days recovery time after the 3rd set before taking to a group class?
> 
> ...


It CAN be tough finding a class that starts at EXACTLY the right time. If you can't get the shots in on time, you can always do what I did, and just make sure your pup gets TONS of socialization with other dogs and people of all ages (including little kids!!!) Just make sure the dogs belong to people that you know keep their dogs properly immunized. You might also find out that the first week of a puppy class is held without the puppies. (I know that's how they do it at our training center) That would give you another week before you were actually bringing him in.

I would MUCH rather go this route than do a puppy class at a big chain store like Petsmart. It doesn't matter whether they insist on puppy shots or not. They allow ANYONE to bring their dog into the store, and you have no control over the environment at all. IMO, at a training center, you at least have a group of people who are more knowledgeable (or at least SEEKING knowledge!) about their pets. I'd also questions the qualifications of the average Petsmart instructor. You might come across a good one, but I KNOW how poorly trained many people are who work in other departments there, and I wouldn't take anything any of them said with a grain of salt.

Once your pup is a little older, and fully immunized, Petsmart is a great place to go to practice in a distracting environment. But not, IMO, when they're really little.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KarmaKat said:


> Oh my gosh... one of my first choice places just added a class that the timing works well! I am going to register right now.


Fantastic! I guess I didn't need to write my other reply!


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## KarmaKat (Feb 19, 2010)

I emailed the dog school that has a May 22nd start date (13 weeks) and hopefully they still have a spot in that class. If not, I think I will ask the other school if Tybee can miss the first few classes. 

Thank you, Karen. I think I will hold off on visits to Petsmart for awhile. PS - Your reply is helpful. It makes me feel I am going in the right direction 

Amanda, I love your signature pic with all of the dogs. They look so happy.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Amanda, perhaps I misstated that. You're right ,it's never too late to train a dog. It's just that by four months the critical learning period is slipping by. It is important to socialize for the whole life of a dog but this is prime time and puppies that are not socialized by four months have a more difficult time down the road. Like AVSAB mentions the benefits far outweigh the health risks. And there are far more dogs die, (are euthanized) for behavioural problems than from communicable diseases.


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## KarmaKat (Feb 19, 2010)

That four month critical period is what I was worried about. Hopefully, there is a spot open in the class at just the right time for Tybee. 

I had read about socialization deadlines in the "After Getting Your Puppy" book. Your link was helpful as it has information from the vet point of view. 
Thank you for the link Dave


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

KarmaKat said:


> That four month critical period is what I was worried about. Hopefully, there is a spot open in the class at just the right time for Tybee.
> 
> I had read about socialization deadlines in the "After Getting Your Puppy" book. Your link was helpful as it has information from the vet point of view.
> Thank you for the link Dave


Yeah like Karen said depending where you live it can be a little tough to find the right timing. Where do you live.? Great book.,I just emailed it to another member . The BEFORE version is available as a free download ,But Ian has not always given the AFTER version for free. I'll have to talk to him. LOL. Yeah ,as science has learned more about behavior they have moved the puppy classes earlier than years ago. I spoke to Ian about this exactly. He has recommended three months to 18 weeks for years. And I asked him if he wasn't leaning towards earlier than three months and for a variety of reasons he is sticking with three months. But in general the movement has been to earlier time frame. Yeah , where do you live. ?


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

davetgabby said:


> Hi Amanda, perhaps I misstated that. You're right ,it's never too late to train a dog. It's just that by four months the critical learning period is slipping by. It is important to socialize for the whole life of a dog but this is prime time and puppies that are not socialized by four months have a more difficult time down the road. Like AVSAB mentions the benefits far outweigh the health risks. And there are far more dogs die, (are euthanized) for behavioural problems than from communicable diseases.


Well your AVSAB aticle also advocates starting puppies at 7-8 weeks and I think that can be a mistake. With toy breeds like our havanese you are missing just as much of a crucial learning period. They are learning a lot of manners at that point from their mother and litter mates.

I also think it is biased posting about more dogs killed by behavioral issues than infectious diseases. Those people who are relinquishing dogs to shelters who put them down aren't usually the people who are highly concerned at what age it is safe to enroll their puppies into class. Do they have studies for people who wait till 4 or 5 or 6 months and take puppy classes v. 3 months? Or they looking at how many dogs are put down that have never left the chain or the fence in their backyard?


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

ama0722 said:


> Well your AVSAB aticle also advocates starting puppies at 7-8 weeks and I think that can be a mistake. With toy breeds like our havanese you are missing just as much of a crucial learning period. They are learning a lot of manners at that point from their mother and litter mates.
> 
> I also think it is biased posting about more dogs killed by behavioral issues than infectious diseases. Those people who are relinquishing dogs to shelters who put them down aren't usually the people who are highly concerned at what age it is safe to enroll their puppies into class. Do they have studies for people who wait till 4 or 5 or 6 months and take puppy classes v. 3 months? Or they looking at how many dogs are put down that have never left the chain or the fence in their backyard?


 Amanda what they are saying is that for dogs in general it is ok to send to puppy classes as early as 7-8 weeks. Certainly there are different views on how long the puppies should remain with the mother and litter depending on breed. But the general guideline for leaving is eight weeks. The research speaks volumes. The vast majority of early euthanizations are due to behavioral issues and the majority of those are puppies who never had puppy classes. Again , yes it is still better to go to classes at four and five months or later ,it's just that sometimes the problems are already ingrained by then and it makes it more difficult,to rehabilitate . Unfortunately this is when adolescent problems are too much for people to handle and they go to the pound.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

davetgabby said:


> Amanda what they are saying is that for dogs in general it is ok to send to puppy classes as early as 7-8 weeks. Certainly there are different views on how long the puppies should remain with the mother and litter depending on breed. But the general guideline for leaving is eight weeks. The research speaks volumes. The vast majority of early euthanizations are due to behavioral issues and the majority of those are puppies who never had puppy classes. Again , yes it is still better to go to classes at four and five months or later ,it's just that sometimes the problems are already ingrained by then and it makes it more difficult,to rehabilitate . Unfortunately this is when adolescent problems are too much for people to handle and they go to the pound.


I don't know any reputable Havanese breeders who let their puppies go at 8 weeks. As to the research speaking volumes do you have those papers to share? Did you put molly into puppy class at 12 weeks? What I want to know is how many dogs that are being put down by these pounds ever went to any class? Worked with any trainer, etc.? I also would say that the majority of dogs put down did not get proper socialization while at the breeders and who and where you get your puppy from plays a lot bigger role in that process than any puppy class you could take. That is jmho.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> I spoke to Ian about this exactly. He has recommended three months to 18 weeks for years. And I asked him if he wasn't leaning towards earlier than three months and for a variety of reasons he is sticking with three months. But in general the movement has been to earlier time frame.


The balancing act we, unfortunately, have to weigh is that we have chosen a breed known to be vaccine sensitive. So on the one hand, it's vitally important to get in that early socialization, but on the other hand, we're told to stretch the immunizations out over a longer than average period of time.

I'm glad we are safely past that period, and that the decisions we made seem to have worked for us. But it _is_ a worry!


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

As soon as you can get your puppy into good Puppy obedience the better, I would think.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> Amanda what they are saying is that for dogs in general it is ok to send to puppy classes as early as 7-8 weeks. Certainly there are different views on how long the puppies should remain with the mother and litter depending on breed. But the general guideline for leaving is eight weeks. The research speaks volumes. The vast majority of early euthanizations are due to behavioral issues and the majority of those are puppies who never had puppy classes. Again , yes it is still better to go to classes at four and five months or later ,it's just that sometimes the problems are already ingrained by then and it makes it more difficult,to rehabilitate . Unfortunately this is when adolescent problems are too much for people to handle and they go to the pound.


The EARLIEST I've heard a reputable breeder be willing to have pups leave is 8 weeks, and many want to keep them till closer to 12 weeks. Again, I think it depends on the kind of up-bringing they are getting with their mother, siblings and breeder. Many pups will never be with as many dogs again as they are when they are at the breeder's, and if the breeder is doing a good job, they are also getting plenty of human socialization during this period. And this is specifically during the MOST critical period for socialization.

Now, if they are sitting in a cage in a puppy mill or a pet shop window, for SURE they are better off in a home and in classes for socialization from as young an age as possible. (And THOSE puppies probably HAVE had "all their shots"... You see it in every ad.)


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

ama0722 said:


> I don't know any reputable Havanese breeders who let their puppies go at 8 weeks. As to the research speaking volumes do you have those papers to share? Did you put molly into puppy class at 12 weeks? What I want to know is how many dogs that are being put down by these pounds ever went to any class? Worked with any trainer, etc.? I also would say that the majority of dogs put down did not get proper socialization while at the breeders and who and where you get your puppy from plays a lot bigger role in that process than any puppy class you could take. That is jmho.


We got Molly at eight weeks, and I think from a very reputable breeder. She went to Cuba to get her first female. She got this female from Zoila Portuondo Guerra who is well known in Cuba and has written a book about the Havanese. And she bred to a male from Europe. Molly went to classes at 13 weeks. I agree totally that it is very important for the breeder to socialize the pups. But I think puppy classes are extremely beneficial . I will see if I can find you some numbers on this.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ama0722 said:


> I also would say that the majority of dogs put down did not get proper socialization while at the breeders and who and where you get your puppy from plays a lot bigger role in that process than any puppy class you could take. That is jmho.


Oops... should have read first. This is what I as trying to say in a more long-winded way!


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## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

I am not advocating for Petsmart obedience classes BUT...Taylor stayed with the breeder until 12 weeks old and once he was fully immunized I wanted puppy classes ASAP at 16 weeks. The classes I would have liked did not start until spring and I didn't feel it was in his best interest to wait that long. The only thing available in that time frame was Petsmart. I figured if we walked away learning nothing, I was still exposing him to situations, people, dogs and one-on-one bonding time with just he and I. I was pleasantly surprised and I am sure this particular trainer had a lot to do with it. I feel we gained far more in the Petsmart classes than I did in another puppy class where they had a much better reputation for experienced trainers. That class was an on-leash class yet I was so preoccupied with a dog-aggressive Doberman that I focused more on that Doberman and how it was looking at Evye than I did anything else. Even if Petsmart doesn't have the best rep for qualified trainers, it's still good socialization.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

ama0722 said:


> I don't know any reputable Havanese breeders who let their puppies go at 8 weeks. As to the research speaking volumes do you have those papers to share? Did you put molly into puppy class at 12 weeks? What I want to know is how many dogs that are being put down by these pounds ever went to any class? Worked with any trainer, etc.? I also would say that the majority of dogs put down did not get proper socialization while at the breeders and who and where you get your puppy from plays a lot bigger role in that process than any puppy class you could take. That is jmho.


Hi Amanda, just a quick search led me to this brief but I think informative study by the Calgary Humane Society. They are being studied by many Humane societies around the world because of their advanced research and impressive statistics when it comes to low rates of euthanasia. Here is a graph on reasons for early euthanasia. I will look a little more on puppy class stats, I know I read an article a few years ago. Here is Calgary graph. http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/bu/animalservices/dog_euthanasia.pdf


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> Hi Amanda, just a quick search led me to this brief but I think informative study by the Calgary Humane Society. They are being studied by many Humane societies around the world because of their advanced research and impressive statistics when it comes to low rates of euthanasia. Here is a graph on reasons for early euthanasia. I will look a little more on puppy class stats, I know I read an article a few years ago. Here is Calgary graph. http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/bu/animalservices/dog_euthanasia.pdf


OK, but this is for dogs in shelters (not clear how MANY shelters or how many dogs) who obviously were not surrenders, or they wouldn't have the comment about if the dogs had been licensed they could have been returned.

To make such a sweeping statement, I think you'd need to poll a large number of veterinarians and see why dogs are being euthanized, not just those in shelters who, presumably, have been picked up off the streets.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

krandall said:


> OK, but this is for dogs in shelters (not clear how MANY shelters or how many dogs) who obviously were not surrenders, or they wouldn't have the comment about if the dogs had been licensed they could have been returned.
> 
> To make such a sweeping statement, I think you'd need to poll a large number of veterinarians and see why dogs are being euthanized, not just those in shelters who, presumably, have been picked up off the streets.


Yeah Karen those are stats just saying the reason for euthanasia. Thats all.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I think this article by R.K. Anderson at ABRI says volumes. http://abrionline.org/article.php?id=75

R. K. Anderson DVM, MPH, DACVPM, DACVB
Dr. Anderson is Professor Emeritus and Director, Center to Study Human Animal Relationships and Environments (CENSHARE) College of Veterinary Medicine and School of Public Health, University of Minnesota. He is co-inventor of the "Gentle Leader" headcollar and "Gentle Leader Easy Walk" harness for dogs.

•Minnesota Veterinary Medical Association as Veterinarian of the Year 1977
•American Veterinary Medical Association as Companion Animal Veterinarian of the Year 1987
•American Humane Association Waco Childers Award 2000
•American Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Life Time Achievement Award 2005


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

> Please remember that the risk of a dog dying (euthanasia) because of behavior problems is more than 1,000 times the risk of dying of distemper or parvo virus.


Dave what I am seeing is a statistic not based on any true research. It is just throwing out a fact that many dogs are put down due to behavior and loosely comparing that to how many dogs die of parvo. You could use the same with other information and say more dogs are put down due to behavior than being hit by a car so let your dog run loose so it gets exercise... do you see that it isn't research? What research says it is imperative that a puppy be in classes so young?

BTW, I am not a fan of the gentle leader and surprised you are.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ama0722 said:


> Dave what I am seeing is a statistic not based on any true research. It is just throwing out a fact that many dogs are put down due to behavior and loosely comparing that to how many dogs die of parvo. You could use the same with other information and say more dogs are put down due to behavior than being hit by a car so let your dog run loose so it gets exercise... do you see that it isn't research? What research says it is imperative that a puppy be in classes so young?
> 
> BTW, I am not a fan of the gentle leader and surprised you are.


I don't know how you'd use a gentle leader on a dog with all the facial hair our guys have!<g>

That aside, the dogs I've seen on gentle leaders seemed less able to pull their owner's shoulder out of its socket, but I didn't see any sign that it was teaching the dog to walk nicely on a loose lead. The harnesses where the leash attaches on the chest seem to be a little better, as they turn the dog toward you when they try to pull. But it still looks to me like the bottom line is that those dogs need more training, not a different device.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Karen- exactly! I do therapy dog with someone who rather than train her dog uses the gentle leader and the dog is a monster. She recommends it to everyone whose dog comes in and fails the therapy dog test cause it can't walk on a loose lead. I just concentrate on my visit and my dog! I have been told it can cause damage to some of the big powerful dogs as well. But like other tools, it is only as effective as the trainer using them


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

ama0722 said:


> Dave what I am seeing is a statistic not based on any true research. It is just throwing out a fact that many dogs are put down due to behavior and loosely comparing that to how many dogs die of parvo. You could use the same with other information and say more dogs are put down due to behavior than being hit by a car so let your dog run loose so it gets exercise... do you see that it isn't research? What research says it is imperative that a puppy be in classes so young?
> 
> BTW, I am not a fan of the gentle leader and surprised you are.


Amanda I think his number is somewhat of a guess but with his vast experience as a vet and behaviourist that probably is somewhat accurate. I am not sure you are aware of how much research he has put into animal behavior and especially dog behavior. He has worked extensively with humane associations so I would tend to believe him. No one is saying that puppy classes are imperative, just recommended. Knowing that many people are deficient at socializing their dogs it is just being strongly recommended. What is wrong with a gentle leader? Used properly there is nothing wrong with it. Any collar can be aversive if used improperly including a flat collar. I have never used one but many trainers will recommend them . If I find some numbers I will let you know. But almost any behaviorist will recommend puppy classes. That's the only point I'm trying to get across.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

davetgabby said:


> Amanda I think his number is somewhat of a guess but with his vast experience as a vet and behaviourist that probably is somewhat accurate. I am not sure you are aware of how much research he has put into animal behavior and especially dog behavior. He has worked extensively with humane associations so I would tend to believe him. No one is saying that puppy classes are imperative, just recommended.


Dave- I think in your posts were saying puppy classes were imperative. In fact you told someone 4 months is too late for puppy training. I put some emphasis on your quotes below that I think are misleading from the research you provided. I think it is great if there is tons of research (why isn't this being shared?) and I am glad anyone who is willing to research anything having to do with dogs but I just want to see the research to back it up before I buy into it. Tons of vet organizations tell us Science Diet is the best thing to feed our dogs and to give shots yearly and I don't follow those protocols either 



davetgabby said:


> Glad you found one , *four months is too late.* I realize certain paranoid trainers require all shots ,but I would look for one that only requires just the first set, like AVSAB recommends. No offense but Petsmart classes are not the best in general .





davetgabby said:


> Hi Amanda, perhaps I misstated that. You're right ,it's never too late to train a dog. *It's just that by four months the critical learning period is slipping by. *It is important to socialize for the whole life of a dog but *this is prime time and puppies that are not socialized by four months have a more difficult time down the road. *Like AVSAB mentions the benefits far outweigh the health risks. And there are far more dogs die, (are euthanized) for behavioural problems than from communicable diseases.





davetgabby said:


> Amanda what they are saying is that for dogs in general it is ok to send to puppy classes as early as 7-8 weeks. Certainly there are different views on how long the puppies should remain with the mother and litter depending on breed. *But the general guideline for leaving is eight weeks.* *The research speaks volumes.* The vast majority of early euthanizations are due to behavioral issues and the majority of those are puppies who never had puppy classes. *Again , yes it is still better to go to classes at four and five months or later ,it's just that sometimes the problems are already ingrained by then* and it makes it more difficult,to rehabilitate . *Unfortunately this is when adolescent problems are too much for people to handle and they go to the pound.*


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## KarmaKat (Feb 19, 2010)

Good News. There was a spot in the class. The trainer seems very nice and flexible. The dogs use a crate pad as their "school desk" while in class. :clap2:

Thank you guys for all of the input. It helped me find a good middle way solution for Tybee.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Amanda , I explained my mistatement "four months is too late." . Not sure what else you are questioning. Do you want a hundred articles stating eight weeks being the general recommended time for pups to leave. I'm, providing the research of experts that you simply don't wish to believe. And that's fine . Because you don't advocate puppy classes doesn't mean that I can't. But I will see what else I can provide you with.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

KarmaKat said:


> Good News. There was a spot in the class. The trainer seems very nice and flexible. The dogs use a crate pad as their "school desk" while in class. :clap2:
> 
> Thank you guys for all of the input. It helped me find a good middle way solution for Tybee.


You're welcome Tracey, glad you found something.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Amanda , here is one article , more to come. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8755975


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Dave that's the problem, you never posted real research (attempt to find out in a systematically and scientific manner; 
systematic investigation to establish facts ) Linking two statistics together and posting an age one person or group of people decides is not research to me. I want the reason and the science and the study behind it. I am not saying one should not take puppy classes. I just want to know where the research is coming from when you post tons of articles that say this is the best thing for our dogs.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I hear you Amanda, sometimes the topics are subjective and there is not real research. When it comes to dog training there are always differences of opinion on many things. I simply try to put out info that is supported by major organizations like AVSAB and ABRI, American Humane.,by well known behaviorists like R.K .Anderson , Ian Dunbar , Pat McConnell and others like Jean Donaldson , Karen Pryor Pat Miller. All people who have studied dogs extensively. Sometimes info is not easily found. Example - When I was looking for R.K. and his socialization recommendations , it's easy to find his statements at ABRI but to find his studies is not so easy. I spent an hour last night alone just trying to satisfy your inquisitiveness. LOL I also belong to a forum of our IPDTA members and have a lot of info there. Here is another article with some references listed, but it is often difficult to find their research. Believe me I tried. http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/vetmed/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=646902 Four pages to that one. But I will try to show stats when possible.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a783707317&db=all


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## sprorchid (Mar 30, 2010)

*my first puppy, now 17 wks old*

Ok, I'm just going to say what I've done... I'm not saying to do what I do.
My maine focus for my pup was that he have plenty of positive experiences and opps to meet friendly dogs and ppl. I also wanted my lil' guy to learn to play nice with other small dogs, b/c my other dog is 125 lbs (he hangs by his mouth on her tail as she walks around the house, serious).

My first puppy is Ollie, he's 1/2 hav by blood, 1/2 shih tzu, 100% hav personality, and IMO looks  I have a female anatolian as well, Kara, 5.5 yrs old, mellow, sweet, very playful. they great along great.

I've only had anatolians previously (3) the youngest being 5 months right off the farm.

I got him at 8 wks old, had his 1st round of shots during that month, and the breeder recommended shots every 3 weeks. At 11 weeks, he got his second round of shots, and I took him to classes, always wiped him down with antiviral wipes if he had been on the floor or around other dogs.

My vet didn't tell me why till I came in at 14 wks, that they wanted shots 3very 4 wks, b/c of their protocols.

I started working on tricks right away, at home with treats. The first trick was the hardest, but he caught on quickly.

from 8-11 weeks old, I decided he needed to meet other dogs, whether it be me holding him. The Petco trainer let me come and didn't charge me, b/c I wasn't going to put him on the floor, but I would take the class when he got his shots. He began going at 9 weeks stayed in my lap, except to free play with the other puppies (what he was there for). Also b/c he's always the smallest, the trainer let Ollie walk around offleash, while the other dogs were leashed and practicing commands. What Ollie did, is not so much greet the other dogs, but find the humans with the best treats and then he would follow their commands and work them for food. yup. really.

I've taken the Petsmart classes, and Petco for that matter, all with Ollie, and in my area, the Petco classes have rolling attendance, so there are different puppies there every time, which I liked. Petsmart has static attendance, a set class, same dogs every time. different +'s and -'s to that as well.

Unfornately in the first puppy class withe Petco, there was an uber dominant, rough playing lab mix, and their training mentality is don't break them up if they fight, b/c the puppies need to read each others signals. (you can guess my thoughts on that).

Ollie lost his innocence that day. He stills hate that puppy, Tomba. He met him again, in the next class, I didn't recognize the puppy b/c it had grown so much, but the owner recognized and greeted Ollie verbally, while the two sniffed (I was holding Ollie in my arms)... Ollie took one whiff and knew who it was, and growled at him! Ollie, my sweetie pie! Tomba spent the whole class trying to pin him. we kept them apart. haven't seen Tomba since.

Ollie is fine. He's still really friendly, but he doesn't like that energy level and he doesn't play right off the bat with the high energy, pouncey lab pups. He does warm up eventually to them, and never holds a grudge (hav side), but he will get snarky on a pup that wants to pin him off the bat. He prefers playing with pups that have a calmer energy and he likes the ladies 

I think I went over board, and have Ollie in 3 different puppy classes, during the 11-16 week window for his age. I was worried he'd be more ppl oriented and not a dog's dog if you know what I mean. started to walk him on short 10 min walks on the same route at 14 wks (after the 3rd round of shots) with a prompt wipe down of anti-viral wipes on the feet and face. I didn't alow him to sniff the popular marking places of other dogs on the walks, and limited lawn walking.

The classes are all the same, format wise, except for the trainer at the SPCA, it's a free class, but she's actually a professional trainer, used train police dogs and now does positive reinforcement. She's been the most inciteful about dog behavior. the other two classes are more about manners, down, sit, stay, leave-it, come, loose leash, some socialization time.

Ollie has a little alpha in him, b/c he does stand his ground with other dogs (size matters not), but he's appropriate and listens to the other dog. He greet fine on and offleash. and when he's with a pack, like when I'm late to puppy class, he's fine wiht 4-6 dogs sniffing him at one time.

As an example, My neighbor has 2 3 yr old labs, females, very friendly and buddies with my gal. Ollie has played with them 2x. the second time, the did a little chase, but the choc lab, Reba, she hasn't really gotten to play with any small dogs, they are all barky or run away from her. Ollie didn't run away, but Reba didn't know how to play with him (except for chase) and she would just nudge him with her nose on his side. Ollie would look at her as if to say, 'Yeah, what? that's all you got?'. she musta nosed him like 10 times!

anyway, He'll be doing another puppy class for socialization (last one) from 18 weeks thur 23 weeks. similar format and goals, but he'll be able to meet more puppies and continue to socialize.

Looking back, I'd interview the trainer moreso, and see what their views are on things, as I do not agree about letting the 'dogs' sort it out on their own, not just b/c my guy is always the smallest one.

I do agree that 1 negative experience can deeply affect their temperament and personality, human or dog. it's not that I didn't know that before, but now I KNOW that... if you know what I mean. I would screen the children he is exposed to very carefully. Nothing happened, but he's a kid magnet and they ALL try to pick him up, if he stands still long enough. Also if there were children present in the classes, they often would interfere with Ollie's play time with the other pups b/c the kids wanted to play with him, and hence would keep him from playing with the other puppies.

I plan to certify Ollie as a therapy dog, b/c I'm a speech therapist, in the schools, and my previous male was a certified therapy dog, and I took him to school to work with special needs kids. So it's very important that he like kids and be comfortable about them. and so far he is.

anyway, If I were to do it again, I would skip the petsmart class.

He hasn't gotten sick, but I did vaccinate him for kennel cough during the 2nd round of shots. Good thing b/c his best bud a brussels griffon close to his age, came down with kennel cough, and he's been out of class like 4 weeks.

Ollie's learned about 14 tricks so far, including fetch, leave it (food, tissue, shoes, socks) and 'on your side', 360 jump and walking on his back legs. just learned high five tonight 

anyway, hope that helps, I think you need to do what you feel is appropriate even during the class time.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KarmaKat said:


> Good News. There was a spot in the class. The trainer seems very nice and flexible. The dogs use a crate pad as their "school desk" while in class. :clap2:
> 
> Thank you guys for all of the input. It helped me find a good middle way solution for Tybee.


Great news! Keep us informed on how your lessons progress. We became hooked, and now end up at the training center 2-3 times per week for various classes!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> Amanda , I explained my mistatement "four months is too late." . Not sure what else you are questioning. Do you want a hundred articles stating eight weeks being the general recommended time for pups to leave. I'm, providing the research of experts that you simply don't wish to believe. And that's fine . Because you don't advocate puppy classes doesn't mean that I can't. But I will see what else I can provide you with.


Hi Dave, I agree with you that puppy classes are very beneficial, and I really don't think Amanda disagrees with that either. But I think that both Amanda and I have pointed out that it is entirely possible to give a puppy the socialization s/he needs during those critical weeks in ways OTHER than formal puppy classes. And, of course, one has to factor in the quality of the puppy class and whether it includes play time in order to assess how valuable it will be in terms of socialization.

IMO, even IF a person were to start their puppy in classes at 8 weeks, a once a week class is not NEARLY enough to really socialize a puppy. I believe your guru, Ian Dunbar, says, (and this is what we did with Kodi - it seems to have worked well!) that from the time the puppy leaves his litter mates through 16 weeks, he should be meeting new friendly dogs and people of all ages EVERY DAY if at all possible. I actually think THIS is probably MORE important than formal training during this period.

To get back to what Amanda is saying, though, there is a big difference between opinions and research. A hundred articles stating that 8 weeks is the "generally recommended" time to start puppy classes (especially in light of the fact that many breeders don't let puppies go that early) is still opinion, not research.

Research would be a peer reviewed study showing that (for instance) "Dogs who start puppy classes at 8 weeks show significantly less problem behaviors at 2 years of age than dogs whose formal training is delayed until 16 weeks".

That is the kind of research that allows us to get past opinion and into the realm of behavioral science.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

krandall said:


> Hi Dave, I agree with you that puppy classes are very beneficial, and I really don't think Amanda disagrees with that either. But I think that both Amanda and I have pointed out that it is entirely possible to give a puppy the socialization s/he needs during those critical weeks in ways OTHER than formal puppy classes. And, of course, one has to factor in the quality of the puppy class and whether it includes play time in order to assess how valuable it will be in terms of socialization.
> 
> IMO, even IF a person were to start their puppy in classes at 8 weeks, a once a week class is not NEARLY enough to really socialize a puppy. I believe your guru, Ian Dunbar, says, (and this is what we did with Kodi - it seems to have worked well!) that from the time the puppy leaves his litter mates through 16 weeks, he should be meeting new friendly dogs and people of all ages EVERY DAY if at all possible. I actually think THIS is probably MORE important than formal training during this period.
> 
> ...


yes Karen I agree with what you're saying. Puppy classes is just part of the process. The other six days of the week you should be socializing as well. The eight weeks I was talking about was the general guidelines for leaving the breeder. The critical learning period is before four months and that has been researched. I know what you mean and there is research out there about what you mentioned. I read it a couple of years ago. But I can't find it now. And you are right , some people are capable of socializing on their own. Not everyone can even afford classes. I could compare it to taking driving lessons before you get your license. It's a learning experience for both you and your pup. The only point that I'm trying to get across is that puppy classes are an ideal way to start the learning process , and that they are better if you can do them during this prime learning period ie. before four months of age. Certainly learning has to continue beyond that . Dogs can become asocial if it is not kept up. Even though I think I could socialize a dog adequately without taking classes I would still take them . They are well worth it. I will continue to look for more research on this. I understand that people like to see proof. And I for one don't believe everything I hear. We are learning more and more about how dogs learn and think , all the time and research on dogs is being done in leaps and bounds. It certainly has evolved over the last twenty years alone. And thanks for your input Karen ,sounds like you're doing a wonderful job with Kodi.


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## jag (Apr 3, 2010)

What requirements should I look for in a training class, if I want to stay away from large chain type places?


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## KarmaKat (Feb 19, 2010)

Hi Jag. I found a training center that only uses positive methods to train. Here is the website of the school I am going to try in case you want to see compare it to places near you. http://www.dogschool101.com/ .

We dont start till May 22, so I cant give a review 

I avoided places that seemed to be offering training as an add-on instead of main business.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jag said:


> What requirements should I look for in a training class, if I want to stay away from large chain type places?


If you can't get referrals from people you really trust, I would say go and watch some lessons. Make sure that the trainers use positive reinforcement, and gentle methods for training puppies. IMO, there should ALWAYS be a play time component to classes for small puppies... That's how they learn to socialize best. Our training center has the puppy owners come to the first class without their pup, so that they can find out how it all works, learn how to use clickers without trying to handle a puppy at the same time, and so that they can ask about any particular trouble spots they are running into.

As far as the facility is concerned, it should be neat and clean, with supplies near by to clean up the "oops" moments that happen in puppy classes.<g> There should also be a way of getting your young, small puppy in and out safely without running the gauntlet of large over-curious (or worse) dogs.


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## sprorchid (Mar 30, 2010)

all the puppy classes I went to (4) use positive reinforcement.

If the class has a static enrollment, where the pups are the same every week, then I'd ask to look to see what the other pups are. Lab mixes are known to play rough (stereotype alert). 

I personally preferred classes with rolling enrollment so each class had a slightly different mix of pups and mine could meet new dogs every week.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

sprorchid said:


> all the puppy classes I went to (4) use positive reinforcement.
> 
> If the class has a static enrollment, where the pups are the same every week, then I'd ask to look to see what the other pups are. Lab mixes are known to play rough (stereotype alert).
> 
> I personally preferred classes with rolling enrollment so each class had a slightly different mix of pups and mine could meet new dogs every week.


While big bouncy puppies like Labs can be scary for little Hav babies, a good program should be able to manage it so that the little ones aren't overwhelmed, even if it means letting the pups play in two separate groups... first the little ones, then the big ones (or vice versa).


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## sprorchid (Mar 30, 2010)

I can tell you from first hand experience that Petco trainers believe/ are taught that pups just need to work it out. and do not, do not break up pups, b/c they believe the aggressive pup needs to 'hear' the other pup, in order to learn and react appopriately.

you can guess what I think of that.

all the other trainers either had the littles play in one groups and bigs play in another group, OR they would quickly time out both pups if it was going bad.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

sprorchid said:


> I can tell you from first hand experience that Petco trainers believe/ are taught that pups just need to work it out. and do not, do not break up pups, b/c they believe the aggressive pup needs to 'hear' the other pup, in order to learn and react appopriately.
> 
> you can guess what I think of that.
> 
> all the other trainers either had the littles play in one groups and bigs play in another group, OR they would quickly time out both pups if it was going bad.


That's one of the (many) reasons I wouldn't go to a chain store for dog training. Seriously, though, just because a trainer or training center is independent doesn't mean they're good. You really need to go and watch a lesson or two WITH THE TRAINER WHO WILL BE WORKING WITH YOU AND YOUR PUP. before deciding.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

Roscoe had his first class with his wonderful teacher, Dee, tonight! He did great, and she wants to move him into the Intermediate class, rather than the beginner class since he already knows pretty much everything that will be taught. Pretty proud of my little boy, especially since he was the second youngest one in the class and is the star pupil 

Just wondering if anyone has had experience with moving their younger dog into a more advanced class. My only concern is that he is still somewhat easily distracted, but I suppose I can work on that on my own time...?

Stella will be joining the beginner class next Sunday, and to be honest I'm pretty nervous since I don't have any idea what commands (if any) she knows.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

galaxie said:


> Roscoe had his first class with his wonderful teacher, Dee, tonight! He did great, and she wants to move him into the Intermediate class, rather than the beginner class since he already knows pretty much everything that will be taught. Pretty proud of my little boy, especially since he was the second youngest one in the class and is the star pupil
> 
> Just wondering if anyone has had experience with moving their younger dog into a more advanced class. My only concern is that he is still somewhat easily distracted, but I suppose I can work on that on my own time...?
> 
> Stella will be joining the beginner class next Sunday, and to be honest I'm pretty nervous since I don't have any idea what commands (if any) she knows.


Glad to hear he did so well! But he's really not that young (how old is he now? 8 months or so?)... especially for a beginner class. You said you've done lots of work with him on your own; it sounds right that he should be in a higher level class. At a year, Kodi is STILL the youngest in all of his classes. Yes, he's still distractible, but he has learned TONS. I'd rather expose him to lots of distractions now and work through them than get him perfect at home, only to have it all fall apart in other settings.

I was REALLY pleased that in the middle of Havablast on Saturday, I was able to call him to front and do some heeling exercises, even with all the wild fun going on all around him.(I didn't keep it up for very long) I guess his attention _IS_ improving!<g>

I'd go with what your instructor is suggesting. She knows how much attention can (or can't) be expected of a puppy.


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## KarmaKat (Feb 19, 2010)

Tybee had his first class on Saturday. He did pretty well. He did some demand barking. I can't really blame him because it was the first time there was such a long delay between "school" looking like it was about to start (i.e. at home with the treat bag on my hip, etc) and school actually starting (i.e. obey, treat, obey, praise... etc). Then he barked at the end of class, too. It was over an hour and the trainer was holding up and shaking/displaying a bag of dog food as an example of good "treat" dog food. Poor Tybee. At least he is learning how to deal with frustration  

I am really glad he got to spend some time with other dogs. He really likes a small girl puppy (a little bigger and older than Tybee). He also is experiencing being around bigger dogs.

We are working on "Place" now. (in addition to the standard sit, down, come, etc). Tomorrow I am going to try to keep him in place longer with a sweet potatoe chew. Wish us luck


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

Karen, thanks for the advice!

I think I am going to move him to the intermediate class. He met the intermediate dogs last night and I could tell right away he felt more comfortable around them. In the beginner class, I could tell he was getting irritated by the other dogs not listening, because while he was a good boy staying put in his sit-stay, the other dogs kept trying to come over and play with him!

It actually works out quite nicely. Both classes are on Sunday, beginner from 6-7 and intermediate from 7-8. Since we have to go at 6 for Stella anyway, the trainer said Roscoe and be in BOTH classes, but since he already knows everything from the beginner class we don't have to pay for him. She said it will not take her any extra work for him to be in both classes, so we only have to pay the one time! :rockon:

And I thought I liked her before!!


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