# First day at Puppy Basics



## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

Preview of crazy Mae before I go back on topic. I wanna come in!!!!
I think Mae is part Mexican Jumping Bean 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/12954771993/

Mae had her first day of Puppy Basics yesterday and I learned something interesting, puppies get filled with treats quick and by halfway through class are done being productive. I didn't do Puppy K with her but she seemed up to par with those dogs in class who did attend so I must have been doing something right, "down" is a whole different story. I was sent home with personalized homework to try and lure food under my leg while sitting on the floor to try and get her to go down, so far no go. I never remember Tim ever having an issue with getting too full in class, nor luring him to a down, but perhaps Mae is smaller and of course they are different dogs. Another part of my homework is to bring in a toy that will only be used in class for reward and try to use less treats and perhaps use this toy reward more basic positives like keeping attention. Tim has also been going to class but it's old hat with him and now I truly appreciate how far he's come since starting to work with Mae. I can't wait till the weather improves and I can work with them individually outside, keeping one in a crate while I work with the other creates all kinds of distractions. :frusty:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I could never get Kodi down by luring either. He was a lot younger, so even though he's much bigger, I bet he was probably close to the size she is now. I ended up having to teach down by capturing it. The good thing is that I got a good, solid, fold back down doing it that way, which you often don't get going under your legs. It doesn't matter if you are not planning on formal obedience, but it does make a difference if you think you might compete in the future.


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

That interesting with Kodi's lack of cooperation with downs, Timmy got it no problem. I'm going to find some early video I took of him with his sits and downs so I can frustrate myself. Mae is so different then Tim, she's not a pleaser. What do you mean by catching? Do you reward when they go down on their own? Hopefully not because the only time Mae lays down she usually sleeping. :laugh:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jabojenny said:


> That interesting with Kodi's lack of cooperation with downs, Timmy got it no problem. I'm going to find some early video I took of him with his sits and downs so I can frustrate myself. Mae is so different then Tim, she's not a pleaser. What do you mean by catching? Do you reward when they go down on their own? Hopefully not because the only time Mae lays down she usually sleeping. :laugh:


It wasn't really lack of cooperation&#8230; he just had no problem getting his front end completely on the floor without the back end going down&#8230; so he never "got" the concept. 

To "capture a behavior, you just keep a clicker and treats on you all the time. When you see the dog do the behavior (whatever it is you want to capture) you click and treat. It doesn't take long for them to make the connection and start to offer the behavior. When they are offering it consistently, you put a cue on it. It's really the purest form of clicker training.


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## Sarahdee (Apr 5, 2012)

I love training classes! I just love to see how smart our dogs are. Millie surprises me constanty when I'm training her. My biggest struggle so far has been the sit stay. She's doing so well with it now but it was frustrating at first. 
I'm sure you will be surprised at how fast Mae catches on to the down. It just seems to all of a sudden click with them. That's what I find anyways. I'm new at this all and thought it would be a lot harder.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Sarahdee said:


> I love training classes! I just love to see how smart our dogs are. Millie surprises me constanty when I'm training her. My biggest struggle so far has been the sit stay. She's doing so well with it now but it was frustrating at first.
> I'm sure you will be surprised at how fast Mae catches on to the down. It just seems to all of a sudden click with them. That's what I find anyways. I'm new at this all and thought it would be a lot harder.


Solid stays are the hardest thing to teach in obedience! Just ask Kodi!


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

krandall said:


> To "capture a behavior, you just keep a clicker and treats on you all the time. When you see the dog do the behavior (whatever it is you want to capture) you click and treat. It doesn't take long for them to make the connection and start to offer the behavior. When they are offering it consistently, you put a cue on it. It's really the purest form of clicker training.


Thanks Karen! I just put a string on my clicker to wear around my neck to start capturing, it sounds like fun. I'm documenting here that I'm starting this today, let's see how fast she gets it. I did a little more digging on capturing and found an explanation for capturing here for anyone who might be confused, I thought this was very well written, although Karen also did a great job.
http://www.dogster.com/lifestyle/methods-of-getting-behavior-capturing


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## Atticus (May 17, 2011)

Glad you are having such fun with your pups! Atticus was my most difficult dog to teach a down and I have given up with roll over! Capturing is a wonderful method! It is especially great for behaviors you see but aren't able to get on your own. Atticus does a very excited leap and twist high in the air when I return home which he will not do for just a treat, so that's one I'm working on. I just have to remember to have clicker and treats ready BEFORE I enter the house!


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

Atticus sounds a lot like Mae upon my return home, even if I just take the trash can to the end of the driveway. I have a feeling I'll be washing a lot of dog treats I leave in my pockets. I'll need to consider what I'll use for treats before I proceed or I might have a mess on my hands.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jabojenny said:


> Atticus sounds a lot like Mae upon my return home, even if I just take the trash can to the end of the driveway. I have a feeling I'll be washing a lot of dog treats I leave in my pockets. I'll need to consider what I'll use for treats before I proceed or I might have a mess on my hands.


I've found that some treats wash better than others. Cheese turns into a solid lump, stuck to the inside of the pocket if you send it through the dryer!ound:


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## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

Suggestions for using capturing in a multi dog household? How would the three dogs know which one the clicker was meant for? How do I avoid inadvertently reinforcing a behavior that one of the dogs exhibits when I click? There are some real training challenges that multi dog households present.


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## MomToFitz (Jan 30, 2014)

I don't have a multi dog household, but Fitz failed his first day of puppy school! He did exactly what I thought he would do, which was to play with all the other puppies and be beside himself with excitement! He knows a lot of commands already, and it seemed like the clicker was just more confusing than anything else.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Pucks104 said:


> Suggestions for using capturing in a multi dog household? How would the three dogs know which one the clicker was meant for? How do I avoid inadvertently reinforcing a behavior that one of the dogs exhibits when I click? There are some real training challenges that multi dog households present.


That does make it harder. Most of the people I know with multiple dogs set up separate, private training times for them. That's not as hard as it seems, because you can get a LOT done in 5 minutes!

Once they really understand the "training game", they seem to be able to differentiate which one you are working with. Also, you aren't reinforcing the click with the ones you aren't working with.

But none of that makes "capture" easier in a group of dogs.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

MomToFitz said:


> I don't have a multi dog household, but Fitz failed his first day of puppy school! He did exactly what I thought he would do, which was to play with all the other puppies and be beside himself with excitement! He knows a lot of commands already, and it seemed like the clicker was just more confusing than anything else.


Puppy K is SUPPOSED to be mostly about socialization, so wanting to play with the other puppies is FAR from failure.

It is likely that your puppy (AND you!!!) need to learn more about proper use of the clicker in a quieter, one-on-one setting.


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

I tried working with Mae last night along with Timmy, bad idea. She layed down a couple times, clicked and treated and gave Tim a treat too even though he was just standing there. Before long Tim was laying down looking at me like "Where's my treat?" LOL. I think I need to separate them during Mae's capturing sessions unless Timmy can chanel his understanding of what I want to Mae. I need to get this on video I was cracking up. I wonder if trained dogs who understand commands such as "down" and "sit" teach the newer student what to do. If I'm working with Mae and I ask her to sit Tim will sit. If I tell Mae "down" Timmy will go down I wonder if some dogs get that scenario by watching the other dog. When Timmy is in his crate during Mae's training sessions and I glance over he is doing exactly what I'm asking for, since he's so reliable with what I'm trying to teach Mae I'm not too concerned about not giving him treats, he's just being noosey.

I too wondered about multiple dogs and clickers, especially during classes. It doesn't seem to cause a lot of issues in Tim's classes and in Mae's class I am the only one using a clicker, so it's a non issue.


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

Molly had her first puppy class today. She was definitely the "problem child" of the bunch. She was too interested in the other people and puppies to pay any attention to me. She was quite the social butterfly and slept the whole way home. I am glad she does good with her one on one training with me at home because the group setting may be a lost cause.


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

Molly and Mom to Fitz, it's great that your puppies want to play with the other puppies, that's probably the most important thing when they're very young, so just enjoy it!


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

If Molly has been responding to verbal commands like sit and down (I have been using treats and praise to reward), should I now stop doing this and use the clicker like the instructor wants us to? I don't want to confuse her but I don't know if the clicker is more beneficial in the long run.


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

Clickers are a replacement for your marker word, which is the word you use when the pup does something right. I see you mention "praise" is that a single word or just happy talk? My marker word is Yes!, said very happily and energetic that's it, sometimes followed up with a treat or a head pat or break in training with a ball throw when appropriate. The advantage of using a clicker is consistency because your verbal marker can fluctuate with tone and volume. The first thing you need to do is charge your clicker by clicking and treating several times so the pup can associate the click sound with a treat, it doesn't take long to make this association. The next thing you need to work on is timing. The moment your pup does what you want click and soon they will be looking at you as if to say "Where's my treat?" The transition isn't hard and I do still use a verbal marker word when I don't have a clicker. I just bought some clickers with a wrist strap thingy and I love them I do find it difficult juggling the treats, clicker and leash but it's getting easier. I fine it much easier using a clicker for training and I started out anti clicker until my trainer suggested I just give it a try.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Molly120213 said:


> Molly had her first puppy class today. She was definitely the "problem child" of the bunch. She was too interested in the other people and puppies to pay any attention to me. She was quite the social butterfly and slept the whole way home. I am glad she does good with her one on one training with me at home because the group setting may be a lost cause.


Except that a dog who can't listen and do waht you ask in a more exciting setting is in for problems. Private lessons are great... You can get a lot done. But you also NEED to work on all the same things in a more stimulating environment. A class is a great opportunity to work in a more stimulating environment and atill ahve someone there to help you through the rough patches.

Remember... A class is to learn new things. If you couls already DO everything at the beginning of a class, there wouldn't be much learning going on! Don't worry about being the class star, work on being the "most improved player" by the time the class is finished!!! 

Even though Kodi is an experienced competition dog, we STILL take the training show om the road regularly. If you can heel up and down the dog food aisles at Petco with good attention, you know your dog has really got it!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jenn, you can buy those springy wrist straps at Staples!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> ......
> 
> Remember... A class is to learn new things. If you could already DO everything at the beginning of a class, there wouldn't be much learning going on! Don't worry about being the class star, work on being the "most improved player" by the time the class is finished!!! ......


So right, Karen; it's so easy to get into the wrong kind of competitive mode, isn't it, where you are more conscious of what others are doing and how it compares, than you are of your own dog's achievements. "Learning" can mean just one tiny triumph that hasn't happened before, or a major 'eureka' moment, or just having a good overall session where nothing is going backwards. Re the 'down' - I think capturing or shaping is the best way, but another way is to lure them under a low coffee table, then the back end is forced to lower and you can click and treat a complete down....the trouble with under your legs is that they get out the other side and up again too quickly, usually.


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

krandall said:


> Jenn, you can buy those springy wrist straps at Staples!


Yep that's what I got. I needed to order some stuff from Amazon so I got a four pack with the springy wrist things. I can't believe I've been able to hold onto the ONE clicker I have for so long and haven't lost it. Now I can leave one in my training bag and strategically place some around the house.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jabojenny said:


> Yep that's what I got. I needed to order some stuff from Amazon so I got a four pack with the springy wrist things. I can't believe I've been able to hold onto the ONE clicker I have for so long and haven't lost it. Now I can leave one in my training bag and strategically place some around the house.


I know... I have them spread all over. The little ones (which I like best) also do wear out eventually. So it never hurts to have a few extras around!


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## dianaplo (Dec 30, 2013)

Do you have to keep clicking for life?


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

I'm not an expert but my understanding is when you dog is consistent with the behavior or command being asked you can phase it out. I don't reward Timmy for every "sit" or "down" since he does it consistently, I do however praise and give him my verbal marker of "yes". I'm sure others, will chime in and let you know if I'm totally off in this explanation. In terms of clicking for life, I'd say yes, since there's always more to do in terms of training.


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## Den&Barb (Dec 6, 2013)

A little off topic, but does anyone remember those little frog clickers? I think you pushed it down then the frog jumps. Anyway, I also remember as a kid being at the local library and the librarian used to click one of those "frogs" if you were talking too loud. We used to react and so I see why a dog does too. LOL.ound:
Just Googled "frog clickers", they still make them!!!eace:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jabojenny said:


> I'm not an expert but my understanding is when you dog is consistent with the behavior or command being asked you can phase it out. I don't reward Timmy for every "sit" or "down" since he does it consistently, I do however praise and give him my verbal marker of "yes". I'm sure others, will chime in and let you know if I'm totally off in this explanation. In terms of clicking for life, I'd say yes, since there's always more to do in terms of training.


I think you explained it well. Clicker training is either for training new behaviors or "cleaning up" learned behaviors that could be better... Like a dog who sits on cue but does it slowly can learn to do speedier sits with a clicker. Or a dog whose fronts aren't quite tight enough can be taught to get in closer with a clicker.

But once a behavior is learned, the clicker or "marker" is no longer necessary. Also, intermittent reinforcement is MUCH stronger than a cookie for every behavior. In fact, giving a cookie ALL the time can actually back fire and become an aversive (negative punishment) if you suddenlt stop giving the cookie every time. So you need to fade rewards (food, toy, personal play or verbal) SLOWLY over time.

The mistake that MANY people new to dog training make is to fade that tangible (food, toy or personal play) reinforcement MUCH too quickly, LONG before the dog has developed any intrinsic value in the exercises themselves. Then, when the dog decides "this is too hard... I'm going to go find something reinforcing of my own to do" the person feels that the dog is "blowing them off" or being "willfully disobedient".

Dogs do what what has value for them... Just like people. In the beginning, the easiest "currency" for most dogs to understand is yummy treats. Ovee time, you can (you SHOULD) build value in the relationship and in the work itself... So that the dog looks at "work" as the most fun thing they get to do in the course of the day. I am very pleased that at this point, after 4 1/2 years of training, I have to lure Kodi out of our training room with promises of "chicken". (our all-purpose word for "the good stuff" ). Because he'd rather be working with me in the the training room than doing just about anything else.

We haven't ALWAYS got that level of involvement and attention in unknown trial settings, but he's getting better and better at it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Den&Barb said:


> A little off topic, but does anyone remember those little frog clickers? I think you pushed it down then the frog jumps. Anyway, I also remember as a kid being at the local library and the librarian used to click one of those "frogs" if you were talking too loud. We used to react and so I see why a dog does too. LOL.ound:
> Just Googled "frog clickers", they still make them!!!eace:


But that's not the way clicker training works. You don't click to get the animal's attention. You click when the dog does the desired behavior to the desired criteria. So the order is different. It drives me NUTS seeing people running around clicking aimlessly at their dogs. Totally useless.

I personally prefer very quiet clickers like these:

http://www.tmart.com/Dog-Pet-Button...aign=product&gclid=CP6S1_S3ib0CFRJo7AodQWAAyw

Thus kind is more common at the "big box" pet stores, and much louder. Much more like the frog clickers:

http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2751377


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