# Titers - Am I understanding it correctly?



## Guest (Feb 18, 2008)

Ok, I have been doing research all morning on this and from what I found off the web. The following states what I have found:

** A titer test does not and cannot measure immunity, because immunity to specific viruses is reliant not on antibodies, but on memory cells, which we have no way to measure. Memory cells are what prompt the immune system to create antibodies and dispatch them to an infection caused by the virus it "remembers." Memory cells don't need "reminders" in the form of re-vaccination to keep producing antibodies. (Science, 1999; "Immune system's memory does not need reminders.") If the animal recently encountered the virus, their level of antibody might be quite high, but that doesn't mean they are more immune than an animal with a lower titer. 

So what does a low or zero titer tell you? Nothing much. A high titer is strongly correlated with either recent infection or good immunity, but the opposite isn't true. You can use a titer test about two weeks after vaccination to determine if the vaccination was effective in stimulating an immune response (in other words, if the animal was successfully immunized from the vaccine), but testing that same animal's titer years down the road doesn't really tell you anything new. ***

Ok, me again...So, if one was to give the final 1 year shots to the pup and have a titer done two weeks later to see if the body has a strong immune response then the dog would be able to be vaccine free for years. So does a person just be careful and cautious and do a set of new vaccines every 5 or 6years and titer again two weeks later?

It sounds like a titer done annually isn't going to tell you anything. (unless of course they did not take to the vaccine to begin with) - hence the two week later approach

I vaccinate (my doc does) our children and one of them is 5 doses by the age they are 5 seems like a lot, but then they don't need it anymore. So it is kind of like the couple puppy shots at 4 -6 months and then the last one at 1 year and then they should be good?

We are seriously considering a Havanese, with the initial expense of the dog, I just don't want to see any serious vaccine reactions that would cost us hundeds of $$ that I could have prevented.

I understand from reading that I should space the vaccines. My Vet allows us to come back for a 'booster' for a $12 clinic fee plus the cost of the shot within 14 days of inital exam. Otherwise it would be the full exam fee again of$35 + shots if went beyond those 14 days. Is 13 days too soon to try another shot as a pup to see if there is a seperate reaction? (these are referring to the set of shots through 1 year)

Titers is a new concept for me. Our dog, Miranda, has gotten her shots for 16years, every year (if annual shot). Just trying to figure out what it does and if it is a safe way of calculating her immune responses. Sounds like a lot of conflict yet on the titers, but my sis is a nurse and she said the two week after testing makes a lot of sense, a couple years down the road getting a titer done isn't going to tell you much unless it didn't have the viral receptors to begin with.

So how often, on average in years, have those who decide not to give annual vaccines actually decide give them another dose?

All kennels and groomers in this area need vet records up to date. How do you do this when they aren't getting vacinated every year? I may have to give yearly (or 3 year) vaccinations in order to use these services, so I may have to just space them out to see which cause reactions (praying none). Titers may not be an option for us.

Thanks for any replies, this site has been so helpful.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I think I understood it differently but I could be wrong. I thought the titer measured the ability of the dog's body to respond to the virus. Neither of my girls have had shots after the one year mark but Isabelle had a horrible reaction to lepto and after that I decided to research a bit more. I found a site that explains Dr. Dodd's philosophy a bit better than I can. As to kennels, neither of my girls have ever gone to one. I also groom them myself now but a lot of "dog people" titer. I just told my old groomer what I did and she had no problem with it. With therapy dog and hospitals, I just have to show the titer records. The girls both do get rabies every 3 years though as that is required by the state.



> Understanding titer tests
> The term "titer" refers to the strength or concentration of a substance in a solution. When testing vaccine titers in dogs, a veterinarian takes a blood sample from a dog and has the blood tested for the presence and strength of the dog's immunological response to a viral disease. If the dog demonstrates satisfactory levels of vaccine titers, the dog is considered sufficiently immune to the disease, or possessing good "immunologic memory," and not in need of further vaccination against the disease at that time.
> 
> Using the new TiterCHEKTM test kit, your veterinarian can now draw blood from your dog when you first arrive for his annual health exam, and within 15 minutes, be able to tell you whether or not he needs any vaccines.
> ...


For more info, http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/titer_test.htm


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2008)

Wow, I guess there is a lot of conflict in what a titer reading actually shows.

From the sites I visited, you can't get take a titer test that is testing for antibodies as that doesn't represent its it memory cells against the disease. So if comparing the two sides of a titer they are totally different. 

So on the other side of the spectrum, it says that you can measure a dogs defensive and determine if another booster is needed. So if your dog shows a low score, then it would get a booster....hum, but off what I could find, a low score doesn't need a booster.

I guess in uncertainty, do what one feels right. These instances just remind me of the human testing and drugs involved and how many times the FDA goes back and forth.

I guess the Titers are still in 'process' of determining what they are good for.

Wow, things have sure gotten complicated. I just want a companion. This has been a ton of research! And it still hasn't helped ;-( I hope things don't get more distant and confusion takes it toll. I may have to search another breed or size. Or leave it in God hands to take the same old roads and just space the vaccines.


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## SmittenHavaneseMommy (Feb 18, 2008)

This is very interesting, although I can't say weither you are understanding it right, b/c I am confused. LOL


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2008)

I just can't get past what I found on the web. I have a gut feeling that yearly testing isn't as accurate as made to believe. I guess I feel strongly about my first opening findings on this thread.

I keep thinking back to humans. When we get a...chicken pox vaccine...we have strong antibodies and a strong defense for attack...but once all is settled and those cells determine we are not under attack...those cells go dormant waiting and waiting for those invasive attackers to intrude. Then their 'memory' kicks in and come out full force with antibodies to fight off the invasion of "chicken" intruders. 

I don't think a yearly titer is accurate as it is made to seem as there is no way to test those 'memory' cells. Most likely they are inactive and waiting at the time of testing. So the titer may show it is low and dog gets re-vaccinated even though it is perfectly fine and waiting. Then those 'memory' cells awaken and kill off the new injection anyways. 

Man, I am so confused.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I honestly don't know how to answer your questions. I agree go with what you feel comfortable with. I know my vet offers to give a booster if the titers come back too low for free. Many vets practice dr. dodds methods. It has never happened with either of the girls-needing an additional vaccine. I just didn't like the alternative to give the vaccine each year. Especially when you consider a 120lb great dane would get the same vaccine as my 4lb maltese. 

Amanda


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Maybe some of our science people can come save this philosophy major


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2008)

I am just trying to be prepared for those first visits to the vets and make it clear what I am wanting. If they don't go along, then maybem I will have to find another. But of course, they would have alot more knowledge on titers (I hope). I have gone to this vet for over 8 years and never has anyone mentioned it. I never heard of them until this forum. Maybe they are Money driven? I don't know. I like where I go, so it will interesting to hear what they have to say about it.


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## KristinFusco (Jun 5, 2007)

Ok, for what it's worth, here is my take on this....

I spoke with my vet about this, and also with a breeder, and basically there is some discrepancy as to whether titers are sufficient to indicate immunity. The American Vet Association is supposedly currently reviewing the data regarding immunity conferred by memory cells as opposed to immunoglobin levels, and what this implicates for the titers that vets currently perform. HOWEVER, there is a general consensus that american dogs are WAAAAAY over-vaccinated. Many Havanese breeders recommend following the Dr. Jean Dodd vaccine protocol, which indicates going through the complete round of puppy vaccinations (minus the corona virus vaccine and definitely no Lyme), and then having titers performed yearly. 

Currently, it is cheaper to vaccinate every year than to titer (@30$ per shot as opposed to 70$ per titer), but it is somewhat uncertain as to what the titer results represent in terms of immunity conferred. So, what both my vet (Recommeded vet of the Delaware Valley Havanese Club) and one of my breeders believe is that currently titering after the 1 year vaccines is the best substitute for annual shots. There are experiments underway to test this, but you wouldn't vaccinate a human child annually, so many medical experts believe you shouldn't do that to a dog either. They are also testing to see if the rabies vaccine really needs to be delivered every 3 years or if 2 doses are sufficient to confer lifelong immunity to our Havs. I speak to them both often, if I hear more on the topic, I will let you know. 


IMHO, as someone who has worked as a scientist or engineer in both pharmacology and oncology, the fewer vaccines that you deliver annually to your dog, the better. I think that for now, if I were you, just tell your vet that you follow the Dr Jean Dodd protocol for vaccination, and many vets will think that is sufficient. I could try to find an online copy of the protocol.

SOrry this is so long and serious, I am in work mode right now


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I didn't know the other side of the equation that some thought is it doesn't prove anything. I just had a reaction with Belle when she was younger so I shopped around (same vet also said Science Diet was the best food you could buy!). I had a really difficult time finding a vet in michigan that would space shots out let alone titer. But when I moved my vet in Ohio was totally against yearly shots. So much that if hte levels weren't high enough, he would give any vaccine free. He also wrote letters for all the places that required shot records. I now heard Dr. Dodds is in my area so maybe this spring, I can go to her clinic.

Amanda


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2008)

Thanks Amanda, I will have to see what the vet has to say and go from there. I guess that would be my starting point.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Yes, you are fortunate to be pretty close to her, Amanda.


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## KristinFusco (Jun 5, 2007)

Amanda that is great that Dr. Dodds is in your area! She sounds fascinating, I would love to meet her in person! All of the cool people move to CA 

Here is a link to a site that has Dr. Dodds' vaccine protocol listed:

http://www.doglogic.com/vaccination.htm

I'm no vaccine expert, but I think that her concept of spacing out the vaccine delivery and allowing 3 weeks or so in between the shots made sense because it allows the puppy's immune system to respond to the first vaccine, without the added stress of a second vaccination.


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## Diana (Oct 23, 2007)

Hi
Since Teddy is finishing up his puppy shots this is all very interesting to me.
Kristin, that you for getting into "work mode" and explaining it the way you did. It made me alot more comfortable and I really like your recommendations, I think I will go by them. I am going to print out the protocol right now.

BTW, how are the boys doing? It will be really nice to see everyone at the playdate again!


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## KristinFusco (Jun 5, 2007)

Diana it was great meeting you at Westminster! :biggrin1: I was meaning to write to you and tell you that. 

I think that, like with any medical decision, there are people on both sides of the argument about vaccination, but my veterinarian is very knowledgable and well-respected in the Havanese community (the are considered to be a somewhat "homeopathic" practice because they are very sparing on the medications and more reliant on the natural immune system of the animals and alternative medications), and she says she thinks that many vet offices would be more inclined to listen if the puppy owners come in with a "plan" like Dr Dodds protocol, as opposed to just saying "oh, I heard that corona virus vaccines were bad for Havanese"...etc. Obviously, some vets are more receptive to changes to their standard protocol than others, but at least it offers an alternative. I spaced out all of Nico's vaccines 3 weeks apart (and no kennel cough vaccine for him either) and I noticed that he acted like his usual, happy self after every visit with no apparent adverse reactions .


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## KristinFusco (Jun 5, 2007)

BTW the boys are doing fabulously  They are hanging out by my feet right now. Nico is whining because Lito is sitting on his flossie :biggrin1: Lito likes to chew on one and guard the other from his little brother.


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## KristinFusco (Jun 5, 2007)

Sorry for adding another post, but I have to say that the annual titers do not apply to the rabies vaccine. THat one is required by law (I believe they receive a puppy round, a 1 year, and then every 3 years after that, but I am not sure, I would have to look back at my boys' medical records). Although as I mentioned before, there are experiments underway to attempt to prove that the 1st year rabies vaccines confer either lifelong immunity, or will only require a booster shot X years down the road.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Kristin, that is very interesting about the 1 year rabies shot. My guys got 1 shot as pups, and then the next year they got the 3 year shot. Does that sound normal?? So are you saying that they think that the 1 shot as a puppy could be the "main" one - or is it different than the one our pups got? Hope this makes sense.


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## KristinFusco (Jun 5, 2007)

Hi Laurie!

Sorry if I confused you, I don't always word things very well! I just grabbed my copy of Dr Dodd's, and according to her protocol, there is a rabies vaccine at 17 weeks, and then at 1 years old there is a "rabies booster" that is good for 3 years, after which time the dogs require a rabies vaccine again. I THINK what the studies are hoping to prove is that the 17 wk old + the 1 year old booster are, together, enough to confer either lifelong immunity, OR that those dogs that receive the 17 wk + 1 year booster will only need a second booster shot later in life, as opposed to needing a rabies booster every 3 years as is required by law (I think). Sorry if that was unclear! I hope I am explaining this right 

~Kristin


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Actually you didnt confuse me - thanks for the info. That is what I was thinking but wasnt sure. That would be so nice if that were the case. I hate the rabies shots, not just for the dogs, but they are VERY expensive when you are paying for 3!! The only problem is that even if they prove this, then towns must amend their dog license requirements. I am required to show that my guys are up to date each year.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Kristin- That is right, I couldn't titer the rabies shot at all-most states tie in license registration to the rabies. Hopefully they do figure something out. But now we only have to get one shot ever 3 years and I give them both benadryl first.

Amanda


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## Elaine (Jan 17, 2007)

Sue Nelson never gave her puppies shots at all and I know there are several others who believe that their puppies do not need to be injected with what they consider poison. I send my puppies home with the protocal of they get shots at around 9 weeks, from there they get another between 3 & 4 weeks and the third and final at 3 to 4 weeks later. I always have Bordatella NASAL, never in a shot, and Rabies as close to 6 months as they can get away with and never with any other shot. The next Rabies is one year after the first and hopefully a 3 year variety. I never reccomend Leptspirosis or Corona virus, unless there is an outbreak and they have the right strain for the virus. I have had dogs swell for weeks from shots, one vet gave the rabies and the other shots in the same injection site and the area died in a 3 in. diameter. There was a lot of work done to bring the skin and hair back and it took a long time. With Havanese I always say less is better. They seem to be sensitive to anestesia as well as vaccines and I always have pre-blood work done when having surgery. I have been in other breeds and never had the reactions I see in the Havanese but I also want to tell you that this wonderful little breed is so worth everything you go through for them. I prefer that my owners do titers after after they are over 1 year old and if they show low in any area than they can be given only that shot. I had all my vaccines as a child and other than tetinus, which is now given only every 10 years, I haven't really needed anything else. If a person is immune for life than why isn't a small animal that is usually not exposed to all that we are okay with only the puppy series? Again this is my preference and if my puppy owners choose to do something else than I am fine with that. We all have to do what we think is best. Good luck on your decision regarding shots or titers and never make this a make or break decision on whether or not to buy a Havanese, they are a wonderful breed.


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## hedygs (May 23, 2007)

Does it take a long time for the titers results? When Domino got sick we sent away but the results didn't come back in time to help him. It was very, very expensive. Is it not so expensive or time intensive if there is no illness related?


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Here is another article on titers/vaccines that might be of help to some. I haven't managed to read the whole thing, but it's informative. 

http://www.caberfeidh.com/Revax.htm


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

I don't have the reference link at the moment, but some new research was just done pointing out that titers may not be as useful as previously thought. Personally, I believe in them and the protocol that says after the booster at 14 months, most dogs/cats have lifelong immunity. The only one that I don't mess with is rabies - the thought of one of my furbabies getting put down because they bit someone and I didn't have them vaccinated, sends shudders down my spine.

Oh, and if you haven't already, you can contribute to rabies challenge fund. I sent $10 (not much but the thought counts). It's an ongoing research effort to prove that dogs can go longer in between rabies vaccinations. The goal is to get the state laws changed to at least five years between vaccinations rather than three. Currently the research is showing that titers remain strong for at least seven years - so hopefully the five year rule will eventually be implemented. I believe they are in their second year. If you can't Google and find it, PM me and I'll post the link here. I strongly encourage you to contribute so that we can save our poor dogs from over vaccination.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

http://www.caberfeidh.com/Revax.htm

This is the link I posted above. Just a sample of what it says...... 
*
"The difference between the one-year and three-year vaccines is they ran a longer duration of immunity test to be able to make a label claim of three years. It's a marketing strategy, period. Any seroconversion that takes place after a modified live virus vaccine for parvo, distemper, parainfluenza, or adenovirus-2 (the "DHPP" of the combo shot) is just as good and as lasting as any other seroconversion, whether obtained from a vaccine with a one-year label claim or a three-year label claim. "

" "Booster" Effect: The only flaw in this reasoning is that it doesn't appear that giving shots to already-immune animals "boosts" much of anything. You cannot make an immune animal "more immune." Re-vaccinating an already-immune animal has little or no benefit; the previous immunity will act like maternal antibody and inactivate the vaccine, and immunity is not "boosted" at all. So you have all the risks of the vaccination, and no benefit. (Schultz, R.D., "Current and Future Canine and Feline Vaccination Programs." Vet Med 3: No. 3, 233-254, 1998.) "*

Someone in a list once wrote that you could buy a rabies vaccine online (or at a vet's, I suppose) and simply use the sticker that comes with it and place it in your dog's health record pamphlet. So, 'on paper', it looks like your dog got the rabies vaccine. I'm not saying to do it, as it's probably illegal, but........ !

I do agree that the idea that our dog could be put down because it has no record of getting the rabies shot is scary. But it actually just ticks me right off that I have no choice in the matter! :frusty: If I choose to give raw to my dogs, make sure they are strong and healthy by avoiding over-vaccinations, stay away from any type of 'wild' creatures (in the suburbs here, the wildest thing is probably a squirrel!) and basically provide what I can to make sure they are at their best health, then someone comes along and says "Nope. They didn't get their rabies shot and they just nipped the mailman, so........ off to the pound!" I mean........ WHAT?? Grrrrrrrr!!!!!! :frusty:


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Marj, thanks for posting this very reasonable explanation. Humans only get their first series of vaccinations and then we're good for life with the exception of things like Tetanus and now they are discovering that elderly people may need a chicken pox booster due to the shingles that seems to afflict older people (it's the same virus, but attacks the nervous system after lying dormant for 50 years!)

What I'm thinking is that some of this is fear based - the old "mad dog" and horrible old fashioned treatments of giving a 10-day series of shots directly to the abdomen if someone what bitten by a possibly rabid animal. I know that treatment isn't as bad now.

Oh and in California. They just quarantine the animal for 10 days and there's no if ands or butts - they are put to sleep if you can't prove they've had rabies. I was visiting a shelter and got bit by one of the cats (bad blood poisoning happened too - ouch those tetanus shots hurt!) and the cat was put down after 10 days. If they exhibit any symptoms in those 10 days, then they autopsy.


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