# Gut feeling



## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

My little Zoey is a bit shy. I have been exposing her to a lot of new situations and have been socializing her daily. It takes her about three or four times meeting a new person or dog to feel secure around them. Once she is feeling secure she will remember that person or dog even if a month or two has gone by. 
Resistantly while trying to socialize her I have been given flack about allowing her to sit on my lap. I once again didn't go with my gut feelings and allow her to just feel conferrable and put her down on the ground.Well the very large dog that wouldn't hurt a flee approached her to play and Zoey ran like hell with her tail behind her legs. My friend has a 5 acre home site with a very large house. Zoey took off and ran around the house I wanted to pick her up and coddle her but my friend keep saying she needs to learn. I pet her and said your okey but my heart was just wanting to pick her up. Well another run around the house and a third all the while my friend saying the big dog will not hurt her. I keep saying you and I might know that but Zoey doesn't . I finally could not stand it anymore and put her in her safe place (her kennel) left her their for about 15min checked on her to see if she was okay.
Zoey will be 9mo July 18th is my friend right? Is it time I stop protecting her from situations that scare her and make face her fears without the comfort of my lap? Or is my Gut telling me the right thing let her sit and watch and wait tell she is ready? :ear:


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## ShirleyH (Sep 13, 2009)

Hi Suzi,

I don't get it. What's wrong with picking Zoey up? She's adorable by the way. Your 'gut feeling' sounds good to me. Zoey is your dog and I don't think puppies need to be scared to death. She'll learn as she grows that some threats are real and some are not. I couldn't possibly allow my puppy or dog to be frightened when I can do something about it.

Keeper's Mom


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

ShirleyH said:


> Hi Suzi,
> 
> I don't get it. What's wrong with picking Zoey up? She's adorable by the way. Your 'gut feeling' sounds good to me. Zoey is your dog and I don't think puppies need to be scared to death. She'll learn as she grows that some threats are real and some are not. I couldn't possibly allow my puppy or dog to be frightened when I can do something about it.
> 
> Keeper's Mom


 Thanks, I hate it when I let other people get the better of me. She is like a young toddler who is always coming up to me to be picked up. She had a bad experience when she was only about 12 weeks old at my brothers house with their puppy lab. She hates dogs lunging at her.I should have used my own judgment and not have let her down. The other Bernese mt year old was my friends neighbors she comes threw the fence to play with her dog. Maddie had no problem just stayed back the dog left her alone . The second I let Zoey down Daisey lunged forward Zoey took off scared . Their was no excuse for me when she returned not to have picked her up when she asked.
It was interesting when I did let her out of the create and she was on my lap Daisey barked at her and gave a little attitude.I was glad when the neighbor came and got her.


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## jessegirl (May 13, 2011)

Hi. I've been struggling with this myself. I think the rationale for not picking them up is that picking up a dog is reinforcing. So, we may reinforce fearful behavior by essentially rewarding the dog for displaying it. On the other hand, we want our pups to experience things at their own pace. I'm really not sure what the correct approach is. I've been kind of trying to strike a happy balance. So I'll allow Rollie to run under my chair or come into my lap or sit near/behind me, but I haven't been picking him up or removing him. I don't want him to learn to run away, you know. The best scenarios involve my dog free to approach, but the other dog restrained at a safe distance so the other dog can't intrude on Rollie's space until he's ready to approach (which usually happens when the other dog turned around - Rollie always likes to greet the butt). 

I definitely worry about this so any additional perspectives would be welcomed by me as well.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jessegirl said:


> Hi. I've been struggling with this myself. I think the rationale for not picking them up is that picking up a dog is reinforcing. So, we may reinforce fearful behavior by essentially rewarding the dog for displaying it. On the other hand, we want our pups to experience things at their own pace. I'm really not sure what the correct approach is. I've been kind of trying to strike a happy balance. So I'll allow Rollie to run under my chair or come into my lap or sit near/behind me, but I haven't been picking him up or removing him. I don't want him to learn to run away, you know. The best scenarios involve my dog free to approach, but the other dog restrained at a safe distance so the other dog can't intrude on Rollie's space until he's ready to approach (which usually happens when the other dog turned around - Rollie always likes to greet the butt).
> 
> I definitely worry about this so any additional perspectives would be welcomed by me as well.


I think your approach is spot on, with one exception. I think it would be much better if you choose playmates for Rollie who are an appropriate match so that you don't ahve to worry about them being restrained. The reason for this is that MANY dogs will get more excited, and some even aggressive, when they are restrained. That can lead to problems Rollie doesn't know existed.<g>

Yes, I'm sure Rollie would rather sniff the other dog's butt first, but as the puppy, in "dog manners" he needs to allow the older dogs to do the sniffing. That's part of learning dog etiquette! One thing that I think it's VERY important for little dogs to learn is that they just CAN'T challenge big dogs. It's easier for them to learn this as puppies, when a full grown dog will cut them more slack.


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## jessegirl (May 13, 2011)

krandall said:


> I think your approach is spot on, with one exception. I think it would be much better if you choose playmates for Rollie who are an appropriate match so that you don't ahve to worry about them being restrained. The reason for this is that MANY dogs will get more excited, and some even aggressive, when they are restrained. That can lead to problems Rollie doesn't know existed.<g>
> 
> Yes, I'm sure Rollie would rather sniff the other dog's butt first, but as the puppy, in "dog manners" he needs to allow the older dogs to do the sniffing. That's part of learning dog etiquette! One thing that I think it's VERY important for little dogs to learn is that they just CAN'T challenge big dogs. It's easier for them to learn this as puppies, when a full grown dog will cut them more slack.


Karen, that's great feedback. We have been in situations where the other dog is free and will approach Rollie and Rollie will sometimes be fine, sometimes want to run to me, and if the other dog is right there, Rollie will appropriately present the belly and let the other dog sniff away. I'm happy to learn that it is ok for the other dogs to approach because although I feel more comfortable when Rollie gets to be in control, that's not always possible. But I admit, I worried that if the other dogs are more assertive and approach him before he is ready, he may fear them more - that's the mommy in me. The psychologist in me says "No! He'll learn that the dogs don't hurt him and only want to sniff him and that everything is just fine and eventually he won't need to worry because he'll have learned that (most) dogs represent no threat to him."


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jessegirl said:


> Karen, that's great feedback. We have been in situations where the other dog is free and will approach Rollie and Rollie will sometimes be fine, sometimes want to run to me, and if the other dog is right there, Rollie will appropriately present the belly and let the other dog sniff away. I'm happy to learn that it is ok for the other dogs to approach because although I feel more comfortable when Rollie gets to be in control, that's not always possible. But I admit, I worried that if the other dogs are more assertive and approach him before he is ready, he may fear them more - that's the mommy in me. The psychologist in me says "No! He'll learn that the dogs don't hurt him and only want to sniff him and that everything is just fine and eventually he won't need to worry because he'll have learned that (most) dogs represent no threat to him."


Yeah, I think where the Mommy needs to come out is in making sure that he is only exposed to other dogs with great social skills! ("I'm sorry, I don't let Little Rollie associate with THAT sort!") Large or small doesn't matter, and if he gets temporarily spooked and hides under your chair, he'll figure it out and get over it. Before you know it, he'll be romping with the big boys. Kodi's bestest friend is a German Shepherd.


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

It's a tough one. We took Kipling out a lot when he was a puppy. He met many dogs without incident. Around a year and a half he started to show resistance if he saw a big dog coming that he didn't know. Lately..and it started with a puppy...he will stop dead. Allow the other dog to approach but as soon as they sniff his face he'll bark sharply at them in a 'get way from me' kind of way. Just the other day we approached a Portugese water dog. Owner was great - he said, from a distance "my dog is very friendly - are you ok with them greeting one another".

I said yes and we allowed the dogs to sniff. Neither of us were nervous. I try to convey to Kipling through my body language and voice that he is ok but I do not pick him up. He jumped and popped up but in this case he did not bark. I saw this as successful. 

If he barks I usually still remain in place and give him a second or two more to allow sniffing so he learns if I'm ok, he's ok too. (I always know these dogs so there is no danger to Kipling - we have several labs and golden's on our street).

He gets most nervous when there are two or more but I guess who can blame him. 

So..longwinded response to say - we don't force greeting when he really isn't up for it - we walk by. If he's nervous but allows approach we praise him and stay calm while they sniff. And I have to agree that picking up and protecting may confirm to Zoey that she should be nervous....


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

Does the place where you take your sweeties for training have playgroups? The school I go to has small dog playtimes and 'open to all' playtimes. What is nice about their playgroups is that a trainer (or knowledgable person) is there to guide the playing. Hiding under a chair or under your legs is perfectly acceptable at playgroup. 

If your training school doesn't have a small dog playgroup, suggest one. Even offer to pay for the ring time for the first couple of sessions. Once you get a core group going, the school could charge a miniminal fee. $5 is what I pay for dropping in.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KSC said:


> It's a tough one. We took Kipling out a lot when he was a puppy. He met many dogs without incident. Around a year and a half he started to show resistance if he saw a big dog coming that he didn't know. Lately..and it started with a puppy...he will stop dead. Allow the other dog to approach but as soon as they sniff his face he'll bark sharply at them in a 'get way from me' kind of way. Just the other day we approached a Portugese water dog. Owner was great - he said, from a distance "my dog is very friendly - are you ok with them greeting one another".
> 
> I said yes and we allowed the dogs to sniff. Neither of us were nervous. I try to convey to Kipling through my body language and voice that he is ok but I do not pick him up. He jumped and popped up but in this case he did not bark. I saw this as successful.
> 
> ...


Also, Sylvia, meet and greets on leash are always a different situation than when the dogs are loose. There is always that slight feeling that a dog can get that he's trapped and CAN'T get away. I bet if Kipling were off leash with those same friendly dogs, he'd settle down quickly and start to play with him, just as he does with the dogs at your trainer's house when you go away.


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

Likley true Karen...just embarrassing when he barks like that. Makes him look like a small yappy dog which we know he's not. The other day the scene was so funny. One lab was coming to visit two labs that live on our street. The three labs were busy greeting one another on the driveway while we stood there talking to a group of neighbours. Kipling starts snarling and sending warning barks from the end of his leash. No one was near him. No one even cared he was there. All kind of funny. Eventually the labs came over, sniffed him and he coped. OMG he's funny.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KSC said:


> Likley true Karen...just embarrassing when he barks like that. Makes him look like a small yappy dog which we know he's not. The other day the scene was so funny. One lab was coming to visit two labs that live on our street. The three labs were busy greeting one another on the driveway while we stood there talking to a group of neighbours. Kipling starts snarling and sending warning barks from the end of his leash. No one was near him. No one even cared he was there. All kind of funny. Eventually the labs came over, sniffed him and he coped. OMG he's funny.


:biggrin1: Well, none of them are perfect... We had a bunch of people over for the 4th, and my son put a bowl of potato salad down on his chair while he went to get a drink. Kodi RAN to the chair and started BOLTING down the potato salad as fast as he could swallow it. I don't believe he even tasted it. He just knew that as soon as the first human got to him, his potato salad days were over!ound:

Well, we've always told him he can't take stuff off the TABLE, no one ever said anything about food on a CHAIR!!!


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

LOL Karen! Sounds just like Kodi!


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

a play group would be nice. My training center has saterday puppy hr only its $10 hr the problem was that the day we went only one other dog showed up and agian it was a very large puppy. We have about 10 sm dogs in my new neighborhood we even have a dog play area and Zoey has been around at least 15 dogs a week at class. I think I should have let her just stay on my lap instead of lessoning to my friend. She does need to maybe spend more time away from me though I do tend to baby her I still feel really bad about the whole thing. All the big Bernese Mt dog had to do was lung forward to play and she was so scared I had troubles finding her and got afraid that she ran off.I think I was as traumatize as she was. 
Karen said that Zoey must not feel secure enough with me because Kodie would have ran to her or under a chair near to her It all happened so fast I didn't have a chance to protect her. Well she was on the ground when the dog first approached she did run to me and jumped up on my lap. She sat their for about 5 min before I set her down then all hell broke loose.Even though I totally blew it I'm hoping that putting her in her crate was okay to do. I mostly did that because I didn't want my friend to keep telling me she will be fine and to stop babying her. Its funny how two people will have two totally different ways of dealing with things. 
I don't pick her up every time she wants. Mostly because she would let me hold her all day if I let her She does jump on my lap with out being invited she's very fast. I probably should teach her to be invited first.
It can be so hard being a puppy Mom


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> I'm hoping that putting her in her crate was okay to do. I mostly did that because I didn't want my friend to keep telling me she will be fine and to stop babying her. Its funny how two people will have two totally different ways of dealing with things.
> I don't pick her up every time she wants. Mostly because she would let me hold her all day if I let her She does jump on my lap with out being invited she's very fast. I probably should teach her to be invited first.
> It can be so hard being a puppy Mom


I think it's fine to let her relax in her crate if she feels secure there. Maybe another time you get let her start in her crate, but with the door open. That way she could venture out when she wanted to, but could still get back to a safe place if she wanted to.

Training small dogs is very different in some ways than training big dogs. If your friend is used to big dogs, she probably isn't aware of how intimidating it can be for a little dog to have a big one bouncing on top of them, even with the best of intentions.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Don't worry about picking up a dog in a dangerous or fearful situation. Actually you can't reinforce the fear by doing this.
It is not possible to reinforce an animal's fear by paying attention to him or trying to reassure him. see article by Dr. Suzanne Hetts http://fearfuldogs.com/myth-of-reinforcing-fear/

Also a word from Jean Donaldson taken from her 10 Myths About Dogs Myth number 6. If you pat your dog while he is afraid, you are rewarding the fear
Fear is an emotional state-a reaction to the presence or anticipation of something highly
aversive. It is not an attempt at manipulation. If terrorists enter a bank and order
everybody down on the floor, the people will exhibit fearful behavior.
If I then give a bank customer on the floor a compliment, 20 bucks, or chocolates, is
this going to make them more afraid of terrorists next time? It is stunningly narcissistic
to imagine that a dog's fearful behavior is somehow directed at us (along with his
enthusiastic door-dashing).

That being said , doing these sort of things do not solve the problem either, but they won't "reinforce" or make the fear stronger. This article gives an the same . It's by Dr. Patricia O'Connnell ... http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/you-cant-reinforce-fear-dogs-and-thunderstorms

These are from three of the most educated dog behaviorists in the world. All women. LOL


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## jessegirl (May 13, 2011)

davetgabby said:


> Don't worry about picking up a dog in a dangerous or fearful situation. Actually you can't reinforce the fear by doing this.
> It is not possible to reinforce an animal's fear by paying attention to him or trying to reassure him. see article by Dr. Suzanne Hetts http://fearfuldogs.com/myth-of-reinforcing-fear/
> 
> Also a word from Jean Donaldson taken from her 10 Myths About Dogs Myth number 6. If you pat your dog while he is afraid, you are rewarding the fear
> ...


I just want to clarify one point. I'm not suggesting that we reinforce fear by picking up a dog in a fearful situation, but what we are doing is giving negative reinforcement by removing the animal from a situation that the dog is perceiving as unpleasant. We take away something unpleasant, the dog feels less anxious and learns that fleeing is a good response. We aren't negatively reinforcing the fear, but we certainly can be negatively reinforcing the fleeing behavior.

Negative reinforcement is a consequence that makes a behavior more likely by removing something that is unpleasant hence creating a pleasant outcome - like when a child tantrums b/c he doesn't want to do his homework - mom sends him to his room and now he doesn't have to do his homework - pleasant (in contract to _positive reinforcement_, which is when you _give_ something pleasant - that's what we do when we give treats). Negative reinforcement is in effect any time a phobic avoids a small space or someone afraid of flying gets off a plane at the last minute - removing oneself from these situations makes it more likely that the individual will use avoidance in the future because avoidance reduces anxiety. Of course dogs and people are different, but most of the principles of operant conditioning, of which negative and positive reinforcement are components, were originally based on research using animals that was later applied to human behavior.

By comforting the dog in ways that doesn't remove him from the situation you avoid negatively reinforcing fleeing and he gets to learn how to cope in that situation. Ultimately he will learn that the situation isn't actually dangerous. Obviously you want to do this at a pace that isn't overwhelming to the dog.


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## Cailleach (Jan 30, 2010)

I think there's a time and place for everything where one has to access the situation and act accordingly. Last week I attended a class as a "drop in" visitor as I wanted to use the situation as a training tool to practice various obedience commands in the company of other dogs. It was a large outdoor class about 30 dogs and there was only one other small dog. I should mention that the class was hosted by a TV trainer whose training methods I don't much agree with but that's a whole different story. 

I kept my distance from all of the dogs with the exception of the one small dog, we weren't there to socialise but to train. It was good actually but I definately did pick up my dog when the large dogs approached "if" they seemed intimidating. It was very chaotic, there was a full fledged fight between an Italian Mastiff and a St. Bernard in the parking lot. :jaw:

I'm all for socializing if it's safe and if it's not up they come into my arms. I agree with gut feelings.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jessegirl said:


> I just want to clarify one point. I'm not suggesting that we reinforce fear by picking up a dog in a fearful situation, but what we are doing is giving negative reinforcement by removing the animal from a situation that the dog is perceiving as unpleasant. We take away something unpleasant, the dog feels less anxious and learns that fleeing is a good response. We aren't negatively reinforcing the fear, but we certainly can be negatively reinforcing the fleeing behavior.
> 
> Negative reinforcement is a consequence that makes a behavior more likely by removing something that is unpleasant hence creating a pleasant outcome - like when a child tantrums b/c he doesn't want to do his homework - mom sends him to his room and now he doesn't have to do his homework - pleasant (in contract to _positive reinforcement_, which is when you _give_ something pleasant - that's what we do when we give treats). Negative reinforcement is in effect any time a phobic avoids a small space or someone afraid of flying gets off a plane at the last minute - removing oneself from these situations makes it more likely that the individual will use avoidance in the future because avoidance reduces anxiety. Of course dogs and people are different, but most of the principles of operant conditioning, of which negative and positive reinforcement are components, were originally based on research using animals that was later applied to human behavior.
> 
> By comforting the dog in ways that doesn't remove him from the situation you avoid negatively reinforcing fleeing and he gets to learn how to cope in that situation. Ultimately he will learn that the situation isn't actually dangerous. Obviously you want to do this at a pace that isn't overwhelming to the dog.


Really good post, Jessica. That explains it very clearly! Thanks!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Cailleach said:


> I think there's a time and place for everything where one has to access the situation and act accordingly. Last week I attended a class as a "drop in" visitor as I wanted to use the situation as a training tool to practice various obedience commands in the company of other dogs. It was a large outdoor class about 30 dogs and there was only one other small dog. I should mention that the class was hosted by a TV trainer whose training methods I don't much agree with but that's a whole different story.
> 
> I kept my distance from all of the dogs with the exception of the one small dog, we weren't there to socialise but to train. It was good actually but I definately did pick up my dog when the large dogs approached "if" they seemed intimidating. It was very chaotic, there was a full fledged fight between an Italian Mastiff and a St. Bernard in the parking lot. :jaw:
> 
> I'm all for socializing if it's safe and if it's not up they come into my arms. I agree with gut feelings.


I think THAT'S perfectly reasonable (and just common sense!) too. Kodi is not afraid of other dogs. He approaches every dog, large or small, as a friend unless proven otherwise. But he IS small, so I have to make the judgement for him if I think there is a possibility that another dog could be dangerous to him. After our small dog agility class on Tues. evenings, there is a class for young dogs. Most of these are big dogs, and few of them have had enough basic obedience training. It's mostly people who just want to run around on equipment with their dogs. I ALWAY pick Kodi up on our way through the mob waiting outside the ring. I just don't want to take chances. Same thing if we're at a really crowded trial and I need to make my way through a lot of dogs. I don't want to ruin ANYONE'S day, mine or a big dog's owner's by taking a chance that my fluffy bunny will be mistaken for a prey item. (happens more often than you might wish, even with competition obedience dogs... that prey drive kicks in, and in close quarters, the owner may not have the time to respond)

I'm not sure we will do formal obedience in AKC above the BN level for exactly that reason... I'm not convinced I want to take a chance on my little fluffy dog doing the long downs between a Rottie and a Siberian. I think I may do CDSP, where there is never more than one dog of leash in the ring at a time.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Jessica, Yeah, removing the animal from a scary situation and giving distance or relief can be considered negatively reinforcing. It is the basis on which BAT and CAT works. But the emphasis should be on sub threshold work - otherwise it is unlikely that learning via operant conditioning will be high on the agenda. I.e. classical relationships will be very much to the forefront and therefore waaaaay more influential and useful in relation to modification.
But any time there is a question about operant conditioning we have to remember the most important thing: the behaviour! Look at the behaviour - is it increasing or decreasing? If a behaviour increases, something is reinforcing it (either + or -) and if it decreases something is punishing it (either + or -). 
But especially where fear is the basis for the behaviour, I tend to think of classical conditioning relationships. 
This argument is an interesting angle on the whole 'reinforcing the fear' adage. I think the use of distance (either increase or decrease depending on the dog) as a reinforcer and am a huge fan of functional rewards. I think understanding a dog's requests for distance does so much for a fearful dogs confidence too - suddenly they learn how to work their environment and a sure way to reduce stress is to increase control.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> I think the use of distance (either increase or decrease depending on the dog) as a reinforcer and am a huge fan of functional rewards. I think understanding a dog's requests for distance does so much for a fearful dogs confidence too - suddenly they learn how to work their environment and a sure way to reduce stress is to increase control.


Interesting. I work with and lecture about planted aquaria. People who are not used to heavily planted tanks often ask how you ever see the fish if they have so many places to hide. In actual fact, it works in reverse... give fish (especially shy species) a place to hide, near at hand, and they don't feel the NEED to rush away from the glass when people approach. They know they can easily reach cover if they need to.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

krandall said:


> Interesting. I work with and lecture about planted aquaria. People who are not used to heavily planted tanks often ask how you ever see the fish if they have so many places to hide. In actual fact, it works in reverse... give fish (especially shy species) a place to hide, near at hand, and they don't feel the NEED to rush away from the glass when people approach. They know they can easily reach cover if they need to.


Cool. Yep all creatures great and small learn through the same ways.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> Cool. Yep all creatures great and small learn through the same ways.


OTOH, when we went to walk the course at Rally practice this morning, there was a HUGE stag horn beetle on the floor. The trainer asked if she could get her clicker and try to train it. We told her that as much faith as we had in her as a trainer, we thought that might be beyond it's capabilities.:biggrin1:

I took it outside in a paper towel instead. The darned thing wasn't smart enough to let go of the paper towel when I got it out there!ound:


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Hey , Karen Pryor has clicker trained a snail. LOL


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## jessegirl (May 13, 2011)

davetgabby said:


> But especially where fear is the basis for the behaviour, I tend to think of classical conditioning relationships. LOL


I agree with that, Dave. When we're dealing with conditioned fear, we're dealing with classically conditioned associations. That's definitely why you want to work with sub-threshold states (if I'm getting you correctly you mean situations where the dog isn't flooded or overwhelmed).


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

jessegirl said:


> I agree with that, Dave. When we're dealing with conditioned fear, we're dealing with classically conditioned associations. That's definitely why you want to work with sub-threshold states (if I'm getting you correctly you mean situations where the dog isn't flooded or overwhelmed).


Exactly.


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