# Mijo has primary liver disease



## Mijo's Mom

For those of you following the thread about my little Mijo, it is now official. Mijo has liver disease, the bile acids tests that came back today prove this. He will be going to see a specialist who can tell us more about his disease and what the next steps are.

I would like to thank all of you for your kind words of support, for your suggestions, and for the wealth of information I have found on this forum not only for this problem but for all of my havanese questions! It is comforting to know that I am not alone in this and that others have also gone through what I am going through.

I am so glad that I got the bile acids test done despite the fact that my vet thought it was unnecessary. I knew there was something else going on with my angel and I just hope that we can help him to recover. I did not ask my vet many questions today when he shared the news on the phone for two reasons: I was at work, and I was very upset by the news! I wanted to yell a big I TOLD YOU SO at him after he kidded me about researching on the internet too much when I made the bile acids appointment. GRRRR! I am not sure if it is a shunt, I am not sure if it is something else that has to do with the liver. When we go see the specialist I will find out more. All I know right now is that I am devastated, I don't want my little boy to suffer, and I hope that whatever he has can be treated, operated, or better yet, reversed completely.

Well, that's all I have for now. Thank you again everyone for your support. If it wasn't for "the internet researching" we would not have tested the little guy. 

With endless gratitude,

Connie and Mijo


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## Me&2Girls

Oh Connie, what sad news. There are many here who have lots of experience with liver issues and hope that they can help guide you. I hope your breeder is standing behind you on this. Hugs to Mijo and an easy treatment plan.


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## Gracie's Mom

Connie ~ I'm so sorry to hear your news. I know how it feels. I was in your shoes 2 months ago with Gracie. We are still in the diagnosis phase after an ultrasound and 3 bile acid tests. Friday we go in for a liver biopsy with her spay. It is so hard to take news like that when you love your little Mijo!!! But know is better than not knowing. I will pray for you and Mijo. Please let me know if you have questions. It might be helpful since we are going through similar situations. The wonderful thing about the internet is that it is a wealth of information. It helped you (and me) go further with testing. But don't research until you get depressed. I did that, but then I realized that I didn't have a diagnosis until I had a diagnosis and the internet could take me only so far. Make sure your doctor is testing what he should, but there is a point where you need to leave it to the tests. I hope this makes sense. I just don't want you to worry senseless like I did in the beginning. Take care and please keep us informed. :hug:


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## Jill in Mich

Connie, I'm so sorry to hear your news. Karen is right - don't get ahead of yourself - see the specialist, do whatever other tests may be necessary and then deal with the prognosis from there. I know it's almost impossible to do, but try not to let the "what ifs" get too overwhelming.


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## trueblue

So sorry to hear your news. Belly rubs for Mijo...and hoping that the specialist you are seeing will be helpful. :hug:


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## Lilly's mom

I am so sorry to hear this. I will pray for the both of you.

Katrina


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## ama0722

Hugs and my thoughts are with you. You should just search the forum and you will get a wealth of information.

Amanda


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## Judy A

Connie, I am so sorry to hear this news....how blessed Mijo is to have you as his mommy. I pray that whatever the liver problem is, it can be treated and he won't suffer any negative consequences because of it. Sending healing thoughts and prayers....


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## mellowbo

Awww Connie, I am praying for you and Mijo. I am on the fringe of this topic. Lulu goes in next month for her year old check-up where we will repeat the bat's. I am so glad you are on top of this and stood by your intuitions. Please keep us informed.
Carole
xxoox


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## mellowbo

Connie, do you know the BAT numbers?


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## Lina

Connie, I am so sorry to hear about little Mijo! I'm glad you followed your gut instincts, though, and got him tested anyway. I will be thinking of the two of you and hoping for something that is not too serious and can be treated with diet alone. :hug:


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## juliav

Connie,

I am so sorry about Mijo's liver problems and will hope for the best possible news from your specialst.


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## mckennasedona

Connie, I am sorry to hear the news about Mijo's liver troubles. I pray that it will be something that can be controlled through diet or medication. Take the advice offered here and don't get too far ahead of yourself. The Internet is a wealth of information but sometimes it's too much information and is pretty scary. 

Hugs to you and little Mijo.


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## NancyVB

Connie and Mijo, so sad to hear your news. Please know you are in our prayers


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## Moko

Prayerful blessings for you and your little one. So sad for you...


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## Rita

Connie, So sorry to hear about Mijo. Our thoughts and prayers are with you. :angel: Houston is sending his Hav love and kisses.


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## Poornima

Connie, I am so sorry to hear about Mijo. I hope this is something that can controlled with medication and diet. You and Mijo are in my prayers. Good luck!


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## Olliesmom

Thoughts and prayers to you...


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## Trish

Connie..All I do know is that MIJO has the BEST MOMMY ever and he is in very good hands. It is a mommy's instincts that always kick in...I found myself in similar situations with other medical issues that the VET just felt I was over reacting, but..... Licks and kisses from Happy and Lucky and "me" and we are wishing for a speedy diagnosis and a treatment plan to resolve this problem and pray Mijo will improve real soon...Trish


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## havaluv

Connie, what a scary phone call to get at work. I'm so sorry you had bad news. I will say a prayer for you and Mijo. :hug:


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## RikiDaisyDixie

*try havhealthforum on yahoo groups*

Description

An open forum for the discussion of havanese related health topics, diseases, breeding questions and advice related to promoting and developing healthier havanese. We welcome all to politely discuss the health issues and topics in breeding, owning, and loving havanese. Any and all topics related to health and wellness will be considered for discussion.


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## Laurief

Connie, I am so sorry to hear such bad news about Mijo!! It certainly makes us all think about how lucky we are in our lives.
Please let us know if there is anything that we can do for you, even if it is go get you to laugh a little each day!!

Kisses and hugs to Mijo!


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## irnfit

Connie, I hope once you see the specialist, it will answer all your questions and ease your mind a bit. Prayers for Mijo.


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## mintchip

:grouphug:Sending prayers and healing thoughts!!!!:grouphug:


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## Leeann

We are sending lots of prayers and good healing vibes your way.

Hugs


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## JASHavanese

Connie, I'm so sorry. You can get Mojo started on treatment even before you go to the specialist by joining this group. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Liver_Shunt_And_MVD_Support/ They are a wealth of information. Our prayers are with you.


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## Jane

Connie, I am so sorry to hear about Mijo's liver problem. Thank goodness you followed your instincts and asked for the tests! Our prayers are with you, for strength and good judgment so you can be Mijo's best advocate. Good luck and keep us posted. :hug:


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## Missy

I am sorry to hear this. I have no experience but I'll be thinking about you and Mijo.


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## Mijo's Mom

All of your messages of support and prayer have made me so emotional. I am so lucky to have found this place. I thank you all so much for all of your prayers. I will be going to see the internist at our local emergency hospital on Friday morning. I will keep you all posted as to what he says. I hope that he will be more supportive than my vet has been.

Questions I plan to ask are the following:

-WHAT IS IT? a shunt or something else?
-can it be treated/cured with food and supplements?
-does he need a biopsy? will it help to get one?
-if so, how does that work?
-will it get worse? can it improve? completely heal?
-will he have to be on this hills prescription stuff forever? (Mijo is not a fan!)
-what kinds of "treats" can I give him?

I wish I could take all of you with me for support and to ask the questions that may not come to mind! 

Thank you again for all of your support. It means more than you know at this time.

Connie


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## mintchip

:hug:We will be with you in spirit.......
For now--Bring a notebook around with you and jot down any questions/ideas for the Friday appointment:hug:


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## LuvCicero

I am so sorry to read this news. You sound like a wonderful Mama that wants all the answers and help you can get. I will say a prayer that Mijo will get healthy again.

When Cicero had his neuter two weeks ago the vet said "there is one liver enzynme that is a bit elevated and I'm not overly worried, but I do want to check again in 4 weeks to see if it is back to normal." Yes, I'm worried...two more weeks to go...and praying it is normal.

I'm glad you are 'going that extra mile' for your little Mijo. I wish you both the best.


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## pjewel

Connnie,

All I can offer you is love and support for what you're going through, but I do that in full measure. My prayers are added to the group for your sweet baby and for you as you wait for answers. Give Mijo an extra hug from me.


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## Mijo's Mom

Thank you all again for all of your prayers and support. I have just returned from the specialist's office. I have all kinds of things swimming around in my head right now. Maybe those of you that have gone through similar experiences can help me make sense of all the info I have right now. (PS. Mijo is still at the specialist's office getting an ultrasound and bloodwork done. I am due to pick him up and discuss the ultrasound results in a few hours.)

*March 3rd results:*
_Blood tests:_
A/G Ratio was 2.1 (normal 0.8-1.7)
ALT 129 (5-95)
AST 79 (5-71)
_Urine tests:_
Spec cPL (Canine PLI) <30 
Amorphous phosphate and triple phosphate crystals found

*April 8 Test Results*
_Blood Tests:_
Bile acids 48 (0-6.0)
AST 77 (5-71)
_Urine Test:_
Calcium oxilate dihydrate crystals found

*April 28 Test Results*
_Bile Acids Test:_
Pre 28.0 (0-5.0)
Post 32.0 (0-15.0)

Right now he is getting an ultrasound of his abdomen, a urinalysis, and the following bloodwork: c/s aerobic, ammonia, and biochem.

Of course, labs alone cannot diagnose Mijo's problem but she believes he may have a Portosystemic Shunt or Microvascular Displasia. She said that far more rare but still possible is scarring of some sort (veno occlusive disease or hepatic fibrosis).

Once we find out the results of today's tests we will decide what the next step will be:
Portal Scintography or Liver Biopsy (with either a guided ultrasound, laparoscopy, or exploratory surgery.) With exploratory surgery if there is a shunt they will fix it at the time.

I am so confused. I don't really know what to do at this point. Before the appointment I knew what to wish for but at this point.. I really don't know what to even wish for anymore. 

Do the previous test results mean anything to anyone? If so, please advise. Thank you in advance for all of your help.

Connie and Mijo


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## Laurief

Connie, I have no knowledge about this stuff, but wanted to say that you are such a good mommy to get Mijo to the place he needs to be so they can heal him!! Good luck!


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## jillnors2

Maybe your Breeder can help you? Have you contacted your Breeder?
Jill


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## LuvCicero

Connie, I can't help with the test or information on a liver problem, but my heart goes out to you and Mijo. My Pom had a serious health problem several years before she passed over and stayed at the University of Georgia for 8 days and had three surgeries. It is so very hard when our furbabies are sick and we are scared....and don't know what is the best thing to do. You are in my prayers and I do pray you will get some good news.


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## Mijo's Mom

No I have not contacted her yet Jill. I was just waiting for more of a definitive answer as to what is wrong with Mijo.

Laurie, thanks for the vote of confidence.


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## marjrc

Mijo's Mom said:


> Right now he is getting an ultrasound of his abdomen, a urinalysis, and the following bloodwork: c/s aerobic, ammonia, and biochem.
> 
> Of course, labs alone cannot diagnose Mijo's problem but she believes he may have a Portosystemic Shunt or Microvascular Displasia. She said that far more rare but still possible is scarring of some sort (veno occlusive disease or hepatic fibrosis).
> 
> Once we find out the results of today's tests we will decide what the next step will be:
> Portal Scintography or Liver Biopsy (with either a guided ultrasound, laparoscopy, or exploratory surgery.) With exploratory surgery if there is a shunt they will fix it at the time.


Connie, I totally understand your concerns as I'm going through the same thing as Ricky. If my memory serves, Milo isn't symptomatic of anything is he? Ricky behaves like any healthy Hav and I've been hesitant to put him through a biopsy so far.

Mijo's "numbers" aren't that bad when I compare them to Ricky's or to actually sick, liver dogs. That is a good thing!  Ricky's BAT results were 99 after having eaten, 15 pre-test and his ALT has been at 410-500 since Dec. I'm not sure what those crystals indicate, but it reminds me that Ricky has never had his urine tested. Though when he was at the ER hospital overnight, back in Nov., they may have checked it them. Maybe I should be getting his urine checked again?? HOW on earth did you collect any urine from Mijo? :suspicious: Or did they do it while he was at the vets'?

Mijo's results are not alarming to me at this point, but it is a good idea to explore a little further. Just how far will be up to you, Connie. If Ricky could get a guided biopsy done, I'd do it, but they want to open him up and explore and I'm not yet ready for that. I may be taking chances... I dunno.... it is very difficult trying to make the 'right' decision. What feels right for one, doesn't necessarily feel right for another.

Do check out the liver groups as they are a great source of information and support, having been there themselves.


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## jillnors2

You know my dog Coco's liver numbers were way out of whack about 2 1/2 years ago. He had an obstruction and was at the vets for 4 days, his ALT value was over 300. They thought he might have hepatic fibrosis but sent me home with him and we had a blood test the following month and another one 2 month later. His counts were elevated with the first test, pretty much back to normal the second test. We never did know what was wrong with him but all is well now. I didn't even know enough back then to be worried about the liver numbers, I was more worried about the obstruction. Luckily, he was back doing agility in a month and has been very healthy. I hope your boy bounces back like Coco did.
Take Care,
Jill


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## Gracie's Mom

Connie - I know what you are going through. Please let me know if I can do anything to help. My little Gracie underwent a liver biopsy and spay today, and we will get our results in a week or so. Gracie's numbers were much higher than your little Mijo when we began.  We put her on SAMe and Hepatosupport (supplements) and the Hills L/D kibble to help her liver heal. We did the BAT (Bile Acid Test) 3 times. Her numbers went down drastically!!!!! Not enough though, but my vet thought it could be possible it could be something like a virus that could correct itself. After 2 months - they thought it was time to biopsy. Don't think the worst yet. 

I think if a liver biopsy is necessary - you don't want to do the needle biopsy. A bigger chunk (still not huge) may be able to see more of what is going on.

I do know how worried you are. You are taking the right steps right now to help him. He is much better off now that you are figuring out the problem. Please feel free to PM me if you would like more information. I would be happy to share the little knowledge I have learned in the two months. There are others here with a wealth of information, and I have learned that they really are here to help you through it.

As far as treats - the liver support group suggests raw carrots and peeled apple bits. Gracie likes neither, so we have just stayed with Cheerios and Rice Cakes. She loves them.

Take care - we are here for you. :grouphug:


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## LuvCicero

Karen, I'm sorry about your Gracie. I hope she does well the next few day with the spay and that you get good news on the biopsy. I'll be thinking about you and looking forward to hearing how the biopsy turns out. 
Dale


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## Cheryl

Connie--those are very mildly elevated numbers and doubt Mijo has a liver shunt (meaning single large operable shunt.) He may have MVD (multiple tiny little shunts in the liver that are inoperable.) This is managed medically, much the way you are managing now.

Let us know what the specialist says when you pick up Mijo. As try to determine his experience with liver diseases.


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## Cheryl

Karen--I am sure you will be relieved to have Gracie home and in your arms again. When do you pick her up?

Have you heard from the vet? Did they say how her liver looked while they were in there?

I am still praying for you and Gracie.


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## EstrellaVila

Praying for your baby! :hug:


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## mellowbo

I'm certainly no expert in the liver department but those numbers just don't seem that high to me. I agree with Cheryl. Maybe wait about a month and do another bile acid?
Carole

ps, now that I think about it I'm wondering how it could be so easily diagnosed as primary liver disease?


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## Cheryl

Connie--any updates from the specialist?


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## JASHavanese

Connie the good thing about Mojo's numbers are that they aren't off the charts. They're low compared to some dogs I've heard about if that helps any. Does anything really help when we know our little ones aren't 100% though? :grouphug:


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## Mijo's Mom

Hi everyone, thank you for the comments. Well the ultrasound showed that Mijo's liver has some small spots on it. She said that she doesn't really know if that's normal for Mijo but some dogs have them. The size of the liver was on the smallish side of normal. There were no shunts that she could see but that doesn't mean that there are no shunts apparently. The ammonia test came back and it was fine, thank goodness! The rest of the blood tests will be back by Monday. We will wait and see if anything has changed for the worse and go from there. We may/may not do the scintigraphy to see if there is a shunt based on those results. Then if we find that there is we may do a biopsy then.

The specialist said that although the BATs were low, it doesn't corelate to how damaged the liver is. I'm still not sure we should subject the poor little guy to all of this. His spirits continue to be high, the test results (hopefully) will continue to be low. Maybe we will just wait and do the BATs again next month?

Thanks for the suggestion.

PS. Marj, it was very difficult and messy to try and get some urine from Mijo! But with a little help from my hubby, we did it!

Carole, not sure how/why they diagnosed it so fast. It does seem odd.

Cheryl, the specialist is an internal specialist for small animals... we asked if she had seen any other Havs with liver problems in the past and she said that she had seen several, as well as a few other breeds too. Hmm.

Connie


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## mellowbo

After awhile I get confused about all these liver issues, lol. Lulu's specialist told me that they don't usually even look for liver shunts with BAT tests below 100. I also heard that story with a number of 50 but I don't know where I heard it. The only reason I suggested another BAT in a month is because that was what our vet and the specialist at UC Davis San Diego told me to do when Lulu's BATs were at 60/15. I did what they said and the next set was normal. I am going to test again later this month.
The specialist also said that she acted, (and always had acted) like a normal healthy puppy. He thinks that she is and lots of things can cause a blood test to go wacky for awhile.
Like I said, the whole thing is confusing at best. Keep us informed and I will continue to send prayers your way.
Carole
xxoox


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## Cheryl

It sounds like you have a doctor who has a good amount of knowledge. Did you like her? Feel like you could trust her? 

The doc is correct that the absolute numbers from the bile acid test do not indicate degree of damage, the trend does. Because the liver enzymes were elevated in the past and they rise after bile acids rise (due to actual liver cell inflamation)--and now they are normal--I believe your precious baby has improved.

Let's see how the rest of the tests come out. 

Get some sleep tonight.


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## Olliesmom

Beautifully said Cheryl....

Rest is good

We are praying only great results....


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## Cheryl

Goodmorning Connie!! I am just checking on you and Mijo this morning.


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## mellowbo

Cheryl said:


> It sounds like you have a doctor who has a good amount of knowledge. Did you like her? Feel like you could trust her?
> 
> The doc is correct that the absolute numbers from the bile acid test do not indicate degree of damage, the trend does. Because the liver enzymes were elevated in the past and they rise after bile acids rise (due to actual liver cell inflamation)--and now they are normal--I believe your precious baby has improved.
> 
> Let's see how the rest of the tests come out.
> 
> Get some sleep tonight.


Cheryl, can you explain the trend thing just a little bit more? 
xxoox


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## Cheryl

Cheryl, can you explain the trend thing just a little bit more? 
xxoox
__________________

I am not sure what you are asking exactly, but medical people look for trends in things that are measurable: lab results, weights, etc. We are always hoping that those numbers are going in the right direction. I hope that answers your question.


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## Krimmyk

P&PT to you and the family. No poor puppy should have this issue. Makes us sad. He is so cute, I love the avi.


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## mellowbo

Cheryl said:


> Cheryl, can you explain the trend thing just a little bit more?
> xxoox
> __________________
> 
> I am not sure what you are asking exactly, but medical people look for trends in things that are measurable: lab results, weights, etc. We are always hoping that those numbers are going in the right direction. I hope that answers your question.


Oh, ok. I was just wondering about "liver enzymes rising after bile acids". But it doesn't matter. 
Thanks, I understand
xxoox


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## Cheryl

I just ran across this article that I have not seen in all my online searches for information regarding liver disease in dogs. I am now printing it so I can make some notes to myself. An interesting part that I just read states that less than 10% of dogs with elevated liver enzyme activity actually have primary liver disease!!!!!

http://www.idexx.com/animalhealth/analyzers/snapreader/lr0905final.pdf

I hope everyone finds this as interesting as I do.


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## mellowbo

Cheryl, found that roundtable discussion very interesting!! Did you notice they never mentioned the size of a dog? And that they only do a BAT if the Alt, etc. are elevated? Thanks so much for the site referral!!!

Connie, I really think your baby is going to be OK.
xxoox


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## Cheryl

I hope more people read the article. Dr. Center did express concern for the some breeds, including Havs, who have MVD.


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## Mijo's Mom

Good morning everyone! I tried not to think about it at all this weekend but just have a good ol' time with Mijo. (the key word being "tried"!!!) Well we had a wonderful time this weekend and Mijo seems as healthy as ever!!! I thank you soooo much for the words of encouragement. I am off to work in a few minutes but I will read the article when I get back for sure! Keeping my fingers crossed that the rest of the bloodwork results that were done Friday come back as great news. If so, we will try to forget about this whole liver thing until next month when we test bile acids again.

Your continued support and prayers mean so much to me. Thank you.

Connie


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## Laurief

I am so glad you guys had such a good weekend. That little guy is so cute in that avatar picture!!! keeping our fingers crossed for you!!


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## mellowbo

Any news yet?
Carole


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## maryam187

Connie, sorry to read about your ordeal. For what it's worth, I will paste a short article written by 'Doc' (Joanne Baldwin) about liver issues, hoping that helps ease your mind.


> Liver Basics
> 
> There are a number of issues that might affect the liver.
> 
> There is the congenital Liver shunt that may be repairable surgically (a single shunt outside the liver has fairly good chance of being corrected with surgery but multiple shunts or shunts within the liver may not be surgically repairable.)
> 
> There is microvascular dysplasia (which are tiny shunts at the capillary level) that are not repairable but affected dogs may live essentially normal lives with some attention paid to diet, appropriate medications and supplements and with blood values checked periodically.
> 
> We suspect there is also a biochemical component associated with the glitch in the biochemistry of cholesterol that may be the root underlying cause of OS syndrome. With this, the dogs seem to keep moderately high liver values (bile acids) but remain without clinical symptoms and live normal lives.
> 
> If you ever have a vet scare puppy buyers with "oh my God he has a liver shunt" PLEASE get in touch with Doc so she can explain the 'state of Havanese health' to the vet. Some vets seem to panic when values are one point over the 20 listed as normal and scare people to death . We are not even a bit concerned at 30 and just recommend investigation with levels consistently over 50.


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## mellowbo

Maryam,
Thank you for that. I do think that we often worry un-nessarily and panic. It makes us all so paranoid.

http://www.idexx.com/animalhealth/an...r0905final.pdf

That is a link that Cheryl posted and it is very interesting. A few things that really stood out to me is that less that 10% of dogs with elevated liver enzymes actually have primary liver disease and they don't even do BAT's without a raised liver enzyme result. There are many things that can cause raised enzymes and Havs are more sensitive to BATS and can show raised levels without having problems. I say all this because I panicked because Lulu is so small. She had normal liver enzymes. But, oh no, I insisted on a BAT. They were slightly elevated. 4 weeks later they were normal. She always acted normal. Never sick, diahrrea or anything. I spent endless hours crying and worrying for nothing.
Thanks to Cheryl who found this web site for us. Please read it, everyone. I hope I didn't mis-represent what I read and I hope all concerned will read it for themselves.
Don't get me wrong, we always should take a sick dog to the vet. This is just all MHO. lol
Carole


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## marjrc

I read that article a couple of mths. ago and found it very interesting. I tried to print it out, but it's a huge file and has stalled my computer twice, so I'm not sure I can get it out on paper. lol It is helpful though, to read about the tests. 

I am glad Mijo is asymptomatic, as are many of our dogs that have an elevated liver enzyme. It is a little worrisome, because we hope nothing is 'brewing' inside that we can't see, but at the same time, it's reassuring that they aren't necessarily sick, just that there is something that needs to be watched. I am confident Mijo will have more normal test results this time around or the next time. 

I've been wondering, Connie, if Mijo had a dental cleaning recently and/or vaccines. These have been known to sometimes elevate liver enzymes and there are many that say that too much plaque on a dog's teeth can also cause problems with the liver. I was just talking about that with Cheryl here. On the canine liver health list, there are many dogs affected by things such as dentals and vaccines...... something to keep in mind.


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## mellowbo

Good point Marj. We did conclude that the puppy and rabies shots were what made Lulu's BAT off the first time. But not her enzymes. Hmm. And I also heard that about the teeth. It's just hard for me to see how Mijo could be diagnosed with primary liver disease with such low test results. But then, I'm no vet!! 
How is Ricky doing?


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## Leslie

Cheryl~ Great article! I'll be printing it out to give to Tori's (used to be Shadow's) vet. I'm certain he'll find it interesting and will no doubt, share it w/his colleagues. Thanks!

Connie~ I continue to keep little Mijo in my prayers!


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## Mijo's Mom

Yikes, I'm at work and have only a sec to write to let everyone know of Mijo's latest test results! I will read all the posts I missed later, promise! Just to let you know that all liver values are back in normal range. Calcium crystals are still present in urine but getting better. Protein level is low (due to low protein prescrip. food). Specialist is looking into getting Mijo on a good food to keep crystals away but with some protein as he is still a little'un! She suggested we re-test bile acids in a month. Higher levels MAY have been caused by something that didn't agree with him in his food. Who knows. YAY!!! I am on top of the world!  I cannot express how much all of your words of encouragement have meant to me. Thank you all again. I will be back on after work to catch up and post some recent pics of my little furball! 

Connie


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## Lina

Connie, that is WONDERFUL news! I am so happy for you and Mijo!


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## mckennasedona

Hooray for Mijo. That's great news Connie.


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## juliav

Great News!!!! :whoo:


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## Mijo's Mom

marjrc said:


> I've been wondering, Connie, if Mijo had a dental cleaning recently and/or vaccines. These have been known to sometimes elevate liver enzymes and there are many that say that too much plaque on a dog's teeth can also cause problems with the liver. I was just talking about that with Cheryl here. On the canine liver health list, there are many dogs affected by things such as dentals and vaccines...... something to keep in mind.


Hi *Marj*,

Mijo got his vaccinces on the same day as his first blood test - April 8 (I think after the blood test though). The BATs were done on April 28. I asked the internist if she thought this could have been the reason for the elevation but she didn't believe so. I remember reading that too. Whether it was the vaccines or his food or something else I don't know. At least his levels are normalizing. Hoping next month's bile acids tests will follow suit and normalize as well.

Although, it is very interesting to read *Maryam*'s post by Dr. Baldwin. Thanks for the article Maryam. Did you get it from the net? I tried searching to see if there was more I could read but I had no luck.

*Cheryl*, the link you found with the roundtable discussion was great!!! I need to print a copy of that for myself and maybe another for my vet. It was very informative and full of pertinant info.

*Carole*, I am wondering the same thing. I would really like to know why my vet jumped to a conclusion like he did. It was a real shocker. What puzzled me the most was the fact that he said he wasn't too worried about it and hesitated sending me to see the internist. Here's some horrible news but really its not so bad! Hmm.. I dunno!

Anyway, I will post the values when I pick up a copy from the specialist's office.

Connie and Mijo


----------



## maryam187

Connie, my Breeder forwarded me that with many other little articles about different topics.

Cheryl, thanks for the link, it was very informative. I asked my DH to print a copy for myself and the Vet.


----------



## Cheryl

Connie--I am thrilled for you and Mijo.


----------



## Gracie's Mom

Connie - So glad to hear thing are looking up for the time being. It looks like your little guy might end up being OK. I hope next months results bring more good news.


----------



## marjrc

That is good news, Connie! :whoo: I also think that vet was wrong to jump to such conclusions so soon. Quite alarming and now we know it was for nothing. I mean, it's good to know something is off, but Mijo was at the very early stages of possibly having an issue with his liver. His numbers were not all that worrisome when you look at others, so that was reassuring to me.

I'm leery of low-protein foods, low-cal foods, etc.... mind you, I'm not a huge fan of kibble other than very high-quality, higher protein kinds... and I don't think it is such a great thing to feed 'special diet' type of foods, esp. ones sold by the vets. That's another topic and one I'm sure is in a few threads around here, but just keep an open mind and see if you can find a good quality, low- or no-grain food to feed Mijo. In the end, he'll do better with better food, not with stuff from the vets. Just my humble opinion......


----------



## marjrc

mellowbo said:


> Good point Marj. We did conclude that the puppy and rabies shots were what made Lulu's BAT off the first time. But not her enzymes. Hmm. And I also heard that about the teeth. It's just hard for me to see how Mijo could be diagnosed with primary liver disease with such low test results. But then, I'm no vet!!
> How is Ricky doing?


Thanks, Carole.  I will be getting Ricky's ALT tested next week and will post results in his thread. So far, touch wood, he's as good as he's always been. If the numbers aren't low enough to my tastes, then we'll definitely have to get him opened up to have a peek. We'll cross that bridge if and when we get there.


----------



## JASHavanese

Mijo's Mom said:


> Yikes, I'm at work and have only a sec to write to let everyone know of Mijo's latest test results! I will read all the posts I missed later, promise! Just to let you know that all liver values are back in normal range.
> Connie


:whoo::cheer2::thumb::juggle:


----------



## mellowbo

DRUM ROLL! TA DA YIPPEE eace:eace:eace:eace:eace:eace:
Yeah for Mijo and cheers to you!
Carole
xxoox


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## Mijo's Mom

Thanks so much everyone!  I haven't scheduled a new set of BATs for Mijo yet. I think we'll try and find him a good quality food to replace the Orijen (which I loved!!!) and this icky vet-prescribed Hill's stuff he's currently on. Then we'll test once he's been on that for a bit. Thank you everyone for your words of support!!!


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## Beamer

Glad Milo is doing better!!! Beamer wants to meet him!!


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## Mijo's Mom

Just PM me next time you are in my neck of the woods or the next time you all have a play date in the east end!


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## Me&2Girls

Connie - I don't know how I missed the news. This is awesome. Hopefully you'll find the right food that doesn't cause crystal problems.


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## Mijo's Mom

Hi everyone! Well I was putting it off for a while but I thought I should get Mijo's bile acids and urine checked again. I picked Mijo up a while ago from the vet's. He says he should have the results by tomorrow most likely so I'm keeping my fingers crossed for good news! Apparently he ate like a champ.  He hates this new vegetarian food the internist prescribed. I am looking for a lower protein food for him that he will actually enjoy eating. This way I can bring my info to the vet's tomorrow and see what he thinks. I will keep you all posted on what the results are.

Connie


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## mellowbo

Connie, can't wait to hear the good news!
Carole


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## marjrc

Good luck with the tests, Connie! I have to say that a vegetarian diet is really not that good for any dog, liver or no liver disease. They truly do better with meat in their diet. In fact, a sick dog needs that protein to help him heal. I am surprised that a vet would even recommend veg., but then what do they know about nutrition?! :frusty: 

If you have some time, Connie, check out sites on the net about protein needs for dogs, sick or not. You might find a few things out that will put your mind at ease. I had also bought a low-protein kibble for Ricky back in Jan. and then decided it wasn't necessary. I'm mixing it with a no-grain food, Orijen, and he is doing just fine. I also feed both of the boys raw more than half the time - no grains and very few veggies/fruits. That might not be an option for you, but I just thought I'd share my 'humble' opinion. ahem...


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## Mijo's Mom

Advice/opinions are always welcome!  Mijo was on Orijen before this whole ordeal. We stopped it to feed him the Hills wet food for the crystals he had. Maybe a dumb question but how do you know how much protein you're feeding your guys on raw? I can follow labels and even calculate how much actual protein is in wet food but to feed raw I think I would need to really set out a whole meal plan for him. Maybe an option when I have some more time in the summer but probably not right now. What I have been doing is trying to find lower protein foods to match the vegetarian that he's hating right now and I will talk to the vet tomorrow to see if those are good options. So far, I have found a few alternatives that could be viable. The one that most closely resembles the vegetarian Royal Canin he's on is the Innova Reduced Fat Dry Dog Food. Atleast the first two ingredients are meats and not flour, rice or potato like the Royal Canin. I'll keep you posted on what the vet says and what we ultimately decide.

Connie


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## Cheryl

Connie--let us see the results of the bile acids before we totally rewrite the diet. We have found 2 kibbles at 18% protein that are high quality. If you need to continue a low protein diet, there are ways of adding vegetables and rice to higher protein to decrease the total protein in the diet.

I want to commend you for sticking to the low protein throught this assessment phase. It is perhaps the best thing you can do for your dog if he has potential liver disease.

I will be back tomorrow to check the results of the tests. I am hoping that it has nothing to do with the liver.


----------



## mellowbo

Cheryl said:


> Connie--let us see the results of the bile acids before we totally rewrite the diet. We have found 2 kibbles at 18% protein that are high quality. If you need to continue a low protein diet, there are ways of adding vegetables and rice to higher protein to decrease the total protein in the diet.


Cheryl, that is really interesting. Wow, seems complicated to figure it out though!! If anyone can do it, you can!
Carole


----------



## Mijo's Mom

Still waiting for a call back... Its midday here and I'm on a lunch break. Haven't heard anything yet. I will be done work in a few hours and will most likely call him from home if I haven't heard anything back. I'll post just as soon as I hear anything. Cheryl, sounds interesting. I'd love to hear about it either way! 

Connie


----------



## Laurief

THE 4 L's are keeping their fingers crossed for good news on Mijo!!


----------



## maryam187

Hoping to read some good news soon.


----------



## marjrc

I'm starting to get confused!! :frusty: I also gave Ricky a low-protein kibble at first, sometimes adding things like cottage cheese, egg, or mashed veggies. 

I then starting researching raw and feel it's the best, most complete diet to give my dogs so started doing just that and am at about 2/3 raw - 1/3 kibble (low-protein, Fromm's and Orijen mix for Ricky). He'll sometimes get an egg, ricotta or other things in with the kibble.

I think that a dog will actually become healthier eating raw and meaty bones, therefore I'm betting that it will help Ricky fight whatever is in him that causes this high ALT. I believe that protein is necessary to help the dogs heal, but yes....... the question is 'how much protein'? How much is helpful and how much is too much, therefore possibly too hard for the liver to take? ARGH !!! 

I dunno...... my gut tells me that a more natural (to the canine) diet of raw (with all needed supplements, vitamins in the mix) and raw bones once in a while, with maybe some kibble every couple of days should be good for Ricky, rather than risky. BUT....... what if I'm wrong???! :suspicious: :frusty:

Cheryl, do you know if there are any studies done on 'liver dogs' with a higher protein diet vs. a low-protein one? I'd like to know for sure, and I don't trust the vets' recommendations at all. I think I know more about canine nutrition than most of them do! lol


----------



## mellowbo

Marj, I think maybe protein is harder for the liver to metabolize therefore a compromised liver (as evidenced by a high ALT) would work a lot harder? Just think off the top of my head.
Carole


----------



## MaddiesMom

I'm hoping for good news on Mijo!

Marj- The reason for lower protein is that a compromised liver cannot process ammonia well, and it builds up in their body. Animal proteins contain alot of ammonia. You don't want to give a liver dog only poor quality protein like grains and plant based protein, as they don't have the better amino acids for liver cell repair. Its all a delicate balance. You want to give them high quality protein like cottage cheese, eggs, chicken, cod, etc. I was told chicken and fish have the least ammonia (especially cod). You also should keep to a lower fat diet, as high fat can really make a liver dog sick. For grains, I used oatmeal, as its a good complex carbohydrate, although many times Panda would only eat rice as her carb. Its all such a tricky balance, but with the right diet, the liver isn't stressed as much, and liver cells can repair. Hope this helps!


----------



## jpgrant

I'll be praying for you and Mijo! 

Take care, Julia


----------



## mellowbo

Jeanne, thanks, that makes sense! It's good to know that with correct diet the liver does repair itself. Would the nv raw chicken diet fall into that catagory then?
Carole


----------



## MaddiesMom

Carole- I don't know much about the NV raw chicken diet. I've never given raw, so I don't have any experience with it. I think what's important is that too much chicken shouldn't be given. Usually no more than 18% protein of the total diet is about right. Some specialists recommend less, depending on the dog's diagnosis and liver function. I know that when Panda wouldn't eat and I gave her pieces of chicken alone to get her to eat, she'd get sick and throw it up. You might ask some of the liver support groups on yahoo what they recommend for a raw diet. Maybe someone there has recommendations. Just PM me for their website if you don't already have it.


----------



## mellowbo

Jeanne, Thank God we have ruled out any liver disease with Lulu but I was just asking for the sake of knowing, lol. I guess I just find all this interesting and love it when info is passed on for everyone.
Thanks,
Carole


----------



## Me&2Girls

Jeanne - you are a wealth of information - thanks so much for the help. Even though we're not dealing with it, it always helps to understand why things work the way they do.

By the way a friend sent a super article on shunts with great illustrations. If someone wants a copy just PM or email me and I'll forward it. I think it's too big to post or I would.


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## juliav

Just checking to see if there is any news. My guys are keeping their collective paws crossed.


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## mellowbo

me too


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## Leslie

Me three...


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## Cheryl

Add me to the list!


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## Mijo's Mom

Hi everyone, I definitely don't have the kind of information we were all hoping to hear. Mijo's bile acids came back higher than last time. His pre was 82 and his post was 57. He now also has "few" calcium oxalate crystals and "occasional" triple phosphate. This is pretty much the complete opposite news that I was praying and hoping for. I thought his BATs would have gone down and his oxalate crystals would have disappeared. Now he's got the ones he had originally (occasional) AND even more oxalate than last time. Needless to say I'm a wreck. 

His vet has faxed the results to the internist. He said he'd call her to touch base and that I should call to make an appointment with her. My husband called and he was told she wouldn't be back till Monday. I guess now we need to discuss further options... the food obviously doesn't seem to be working properly. I was adding a bit of baby food because he wasn't eating much... could that have caused the elevation? 

I don't really know what to do next. At our last internist's appointment we discussed options such as portal scintigraphy and liver biopsy (through ultrasound guidance, laparoscopy or an exploratory) and I just know she will suggest these again. Problem is, I just don't know which, if any, I should choose. Should I try the liver vitamins? I just don't want to wait too long and he gets worse. 

Any and all advice, as always, is greatly appreciated. As are your prayers for Mijo and my family. Thank you.

Connie


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## maryam187

Connie, no advice from me, just a :hug: and prayers.


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## LuvCicero

I'm so sorry. I wish I knew something to help, but your family and Mijo will remain on my prayer list.


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## gelbergirl

only the best thoughts and wishes for your family and Mijo .. . ..


----------



## mckennasedona

Connie, we're keeping your family and Mijo in our prayers. I hope you are able to narrow down your choices to something that will work for Mijo. Are you on the liver support groups that Jeanne mentions? They might be a wealth of information for you.


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## mellowbo

Awwww, Connie, I am so sorry. And surprised! Did the vet explain why the pre would be higher than the post? And the crystals and phosphates, were these part of a urine test or blood test?
PLEASE try not to stress out too much. I know how hard that is. What were the alts?
Carole


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## Beamer

Connie, I hope Mijo gets better soon! Hopefully you can make it to the playdate later this month!

Ryan


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## DanielBMe

I have Dr Pitcairn's complete guide to natural health for cats and dogs. I looked up Liver and Kidney problems. If Mijo has a fever treatment should start with minimizing the work the liver must do by faasting or feeding small frequent easily digested meals. In the early stages fasting is best, especially if a fever is present. There's a chapter on fasting but I won't go into it for now. Just make sure lots of water is available. If you want to know more about the fasting let me know. 

Here's what he says
..ONce the animal improves, ease it onto a diet similar to that for kindey failure. You should however reduce the fat content by using lean meat and eliminating the added oil.' Eggs are usually well tolerated by the liver patient, as are grains. Feed small amounts at a time, dividing the day's ration into four servings, and warm the food to room temp. Hold back on fats until the condition is normal.
He goes on about moving to basic recipes in chapter 4. He also mentions you should emphasize raw foods as much as possible (cottage cheese, eggs, meat, and finely grated veggies). Grains and beans should always be well cooked. YOu should also include Vitamin C during this time. 

Canine Diet for Kidney Problems
1/4 pound regular ground fat hamburger
2 3/3 cups cooked white rice, enriched
2 eggs
1/4 cup carrots
2 tablespoons cold pressed safflower, soy, or corn oil
2 teaspoons Animal Essentials Calcium
1/8 teaspoon iodized salt
2 tablespoons parsley
1/2-1 clove garlic minced
20 milligram level of complete b complex
1,000 milligrams vitamin C

Mix all together and serve raw. Occasionaly substitute 1-3 teaspoons of liver for part of the meat. Filtered pure water is recommended.
This recipe provides 17 percent good quality protein, 25 percent fat, and 55 percent carbs. 

Remember for liver problems use lean ground beef and remove the oil.

This should feed a 10lb dog for 3 days.


----------



## Cheryl

Connie--sh*t!!!! I don't see the bile acids as all that elevated, but they are up some so it would be nice to know why. 


What is the current diet? I know that you were trying to lower protein, but I do not recall how you were doing it. 

I posted on the site about Crystal formation. Let's hope your discussion with the internist gives you enough info to move further.


----------



## MaddiesMom

Connie- I'm sorry that the news on Mijo wasn't what you were hoping for. Try not to panic, as you really don't have a diagnosis. If I were you, I would definitely start Mijo on liver supplements, as they won't harm him and they do support liver function. The two most recommended are Denosyl (Sam-e) and Marin (milk thistle). They are formulated especially for dogs. There is also a combo supplement called "Denamarin" that combines the two. You can google various sites that sell them. They won't cure liver disease, but they do support liver function and are usually used by most liver dogs.

As far as an open biopsy, needle biopsy, etc., there are pros and cons of each. If I were you, I'd get the specialist's input. Make sure they have lots of experience with liver problems in dogs. Just remember that many, many liver dogs have great improvement with the proper diet and supplements. Of course some dogs need surgery (shunts), but others with MVD do well on dietary changes alone. We'll all keep you and Mijo in our thoughts and prayers.


----------



## Judy A

Connie, I will continue to keep you and Mijo in my prayers...I'm so sorry you and Mijo are going through this trying time. Stay strong....


----------



## Lina

Connie I'm sorry that you didn't get the good news we were all hoping for! I will keep both of you in my thoughts and I hope that you will get to find out what's wrong with Mijo soon! :hug:


----------



## Me&2Girls

Oh darn Connie - I'm so sorry that you didn't get good news - hugs. Sounds like you are getting some fabulous advice and input from our dynamite members. Thank goodness for all of you.


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## juliav

Connie,

I am so sorry you didn't get the news you were hoping for. You've got a lot of good advice, now you just have to wait and see what the specialist suggests. Hang in there. We are sending :hug: and :kiss: your way. 

Edited to add, Lina, your new avatar made me laugh. Great shot!!!


----------



## mellowbo

Connie, you mentioned somewhere that Mijo doesn't drink very much. I wonder if that has anything to do with the crystals? I read on the internet that not drinking much could cause crystals. I don't really know if it's true or not though.


----------



## Laurief

Oh Connie, I went to this thread hoping to see some good news this morning - Darn it!!!!!! I would not get too stressed out till you know for sure what it is. Is Mijo acting normally? I pray you guys get some answers soon!
kisses from the 4 L's


----------



## Mijo's Mom

I only have a few seconds to post before work. I just wanted to thank everyone for their continued support. I don't know what I'd do without you! He didn't get his ALT tested this time around, only a urine test and BATs. His ALT was high in March but seemed to normalize from the blood test performed on the day of the ultrasound in April. That was what made me feel better about everything. Well I don't think I'll be speaking to the specialist before Monday as she is away but I will definitely be telling her I'm trying the two vitamins suggested. I think she is leaning towards the scintigraphy (which I will have to read up on and remind myself of what it is later!) but we'll see what she says once she sees the new numbers. Thank you all again for your support. I thank God and am praying for all of you too!

Connie

PS. Mijo's getting groomed after work today!  I'll post pictures ASAP.


----------



## Mijo's Mom

Cheryl said:


> Connie--sh*t!!!! I don't see the bile acids as all that elevated, but they are up some so it would be nice to know why.
> 
> What is the current diet? I know that you were trying to lower protein, but I do not recall how you were doing it.
> 
> I posted on the site about Crystal formation. Let's hope your discussion with the internist gives you enough info to move further.


Hi Cheryl, just a quick note to you. Remembered I hadn't answered this question in my last post:

Right now he is on mostly the Hills U/D canned food as that's all he really likes. I did try the diet the internist suggested which was the vegetarian kibble and canned by Royal Canin and Medi-Cal respectively. He HATES the canned and will take a bit of the dry, as long as I mix it with water and a bit of baby food. It is very rare that he gets any treats.

Connie


----------



## DanielBMe

DanielBMe said:


> I have Dr Pitcairn's complete guide to natural health for cats and dogs. I looked up Liver and Kidney problems. If Mijo has a fever treatment should start with minimizing the work the liver must do by faasting or feeding small frequent easily digested meals. In the early stages fasting is best, especially if a fever is present. There's a chapter on fasting but I won't go into it for now. Just make sure lots of water is available. If you want to know more about the fasting let me know.
> 
> Here's what he says
> ..ONce the animal improves, ease it onto a diet similar to that for kindey failure. You should however reduce the fat content by using lean meat and eliminating the added oil.' Eggs are usually well tolerated by the liver patient, as are grains. Feed small amounts at a time, dividing the day's ration into four servings, and warm the food to room temp. Hold back on fats until the condition is normal.
> He goes on about moving to basic recipes in chapter 4. He also mentions you should emphasize raw foods as much as possible (cottage cheese, eggs, meat, and finely grated veggies). Grains and beans should always be well cooked. YOu should also include Vitamin C during this time.
> 
> Canine Diet for Kidney Problems
> 1/4 pound regular ground fat hamburger
> 2 3/3 cups cooked white rice, enriched
> 2 eggs
> 1/4 cup carrots
> 2 tablespoons cold pressed safflower, soy, or corn oil
> 2 teaspoons Animal Essentials Calcium
> 1/8 teaspoon iodized salt
> 2 tablespoons parsley
> 1/2-1 clove garlic minced
> 20 milligram level of complete b complex
> 1,000 milligrams vitamin C
> 
> Mix all together and serve raw. Occasionaly substitute 1-3 teaspoons of liver for part of the meat. Filtered pure water is recommended.
> This recipe provides 17 percent good quality protein, 25 percent fat, and 55 percent carbs.
> 
> Remember for liver problems use lean ground beef and remove the oil.
> 
> This should feed a 10lb dog for 3 days.


I would highly recommend Dr Pitcairn's diet. He has a very good reputation and has had much success. You can google him.


----------



## Leslie

Connie~ I know, first-hand, how hard this is for you and your family. I will definitely keep you all and little Mijo in my thoughts and prayers :hug:


----------



## Mijo's Mom

DanielBMe said:


> I would highly recommend Dr Pitcairn's diet. He has a very good reputation and has had much success. You can google him.


Thanks Daniel. I will print this out and bring it to the internist appointment which will be hopefully next week.


----------



## marjrc

Connie, I'm so sorry to hear the BAT levels weren't what we'd all hoped they'd be. I totally understand!  If you can get a needle biopsy done, then I'd go for it as it's not that invasive. There isn't a huge suture to deal with if it was an exploratory surgery. I'm interested to hear what your specialist says once you reach him/her. 

Daniel, bless you! I have that book (borrowed from the store I work at) and didn't think to look in there. I've been having confusing thoughts about feeding Ricky 2/3 raw and joined a couple of groups yesterday in search of answers, one group being Raw in Canada. I'll have a look at Pitcairn's book again.  

Connie, you know you and Mijo are in my thoughts daily. ((hugs))


----------



## DanielBMe

marjrc said:


> Connie, I'm so sorry to hear the BAT levels weren't what we'd all hoped they'd be. I totally understand!  If you can get a needle biopsy done, then I'd go for it as it's not that invasive. There isn't a huge suture to deal with if it was an exploratory surgery. I'm interested to hear what your specialist says once you reach him/her.
> 
> Daniel, bless you! I have that book (borrowed from the store I work at) and didn't think to look in there. I've been having confusing thoughts about feeding Ricky 2/3 raw and joined a couple of groups yesterday in search of answers, one group being Raw in Canada. I'll have a look at Pitcairn's book again.
> 
> Connie, you know you and Mijo are in my thoughts daily. ((hugs))


Dr Pitcairn is one of the few "raw feeders" who also suggests the use of grains. One of his primary reasons being meat is so full of chemicals and hormones that he wants to cut down on all that by including grains and lowering the meat content.

But his book does have some very good suggestions of health and feeding.

For raw you can try Dogster.com, there is a yahoo group. There are so many sources and all of them pretty much have the same thing. The main differences I've found going through all of them is that some advocate vegetables and fruit and some don't. Other than that, they are all pretty much the same.


----------



## marjrc

Thanks, Daniel. I've been pondering the whole thing for days and days and I just printed out a few things I've found that is interesting. I am starting to believe that it can't hurt, and might be helpful to Ricky's liver, to add some oatmeal and diff. protein sources than chicken to his diet. I'll add more white fish as well as give him more ricotta/cottage cheese than I give him now. I also don't give eggs all that often, but will give more. I'm going to figure something out that works best for us both.


----------



## DanielBMe

On the weekend I made Bogart and Brando a special popcycle treat. In a kong I put peanut butter on the bottom hole to plug it, then mixed in an egg, yogurt and cottage cheese all whipped together and poured it in, then topped off the hole with peanut butter again. Then stuck it in the freezer. After 5hrs it was rock solid. Took it out and they were able to lick it for about an hour and a half. They love it and it doesn't even leave a mess cause they are constantly licking it.


----------



## Beamer

Daniel,

Ok, where did you come up with this concoction?? lol
You'll have to bring one to my place when we have the 2nd annual GTA Playdate... 

Ryan


----------



## Laurief

That sounds like a great idea, is the egg raw or cooked??


----------



## LuvCicero

Just checking....and I want you to know I'm thinking and praying for all of you.


----------



## DanielBMe

raw


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## Laurief

yikes, you are not concerned about salmonella?


----------



## DanielBMe

nope. Don't have to worry about that with dogs. My dogs are on an all raw food diet. Everything is raw. Heck, I know guys who drink raw eggs every morning for protien before working out.

http://www.rawlearning.com/


----------



## marjrc

Daniel, that sounds great! I think you should post your recipe in the 'alternative feeding, etc...' thread.


----------



## Laurief

Well, I was nervous about the idea of raw egg, but upon checking with my favorite vet Tech, she said she gives her dogs raw eggs all the time! So today, I mixed a raw egg into their yogurt and their food, and they gobbled it down like crazy - and Lexi is all of a sudden, very frisky!!ound: Not sure if it is the egg, or just being cooped up inside while the Temps are up around 100 degrees. I think I def. will be making that kong for my guys!!! Thanks.
Laurie


----------



## suzyfrtz

Connie,

I missed this thread and want you to know that I am sending my very best wishes and prayers to you and little Mijo. All will be well!

Hugs,
Suzy


----------



## Mijo's Mom

Okay so I've been avoiding the forum trying to forget that Mijo might be ill, trying to get my mind off of it for a few days. However, I do want to fill you in on what I've learned thus far. Sorry, its long!

The internist said that Mijo's results indicated that further testing was needed to find out what was causing the abnormal results. She went on to tell me that portal scintigraphy would tell us if we were dealing with a shunt but would not tell us the size of it or what it could be if it was not a shunt. The ultrasound guided biopsy might not get a big enough sample of liver. The laparoscopy would be a good alternative if we did not want to go the route of an exploratory but only the exploratory would be able to fix the shunt if there was one.

I asked if she believed that another option existed - that of trying to go the supplement route and re-testing at a later date. She said that we could try it. YAY! But next is where my worries came back... she said that liver results would stay low if it was a shunt and would continue to rise if it was a scarring disease. Soooo.... she what I got from this is that she definately believes its something and we're just prolonging getting a biopsy done. Ugh.

As for his urinary crystals, she suggested we take and test the urine at her facility because they are able to test on the spot - to avoid any crystals forming between collection and testing. This time we should get a mid-day sample rather than a first morning one to see if his urine is always as concentrated. She said Mijo's kidneys were working fine but was concerned that the specific gravity was high at 1053 and urged that we somehow get more fluids into him and ensure he gets even more bathroom breaks. I bought him a dog water fountain (as he sometimes likes to drink from the hose outside). I am having some success with it but adding a bit of baby food to his regular water bowl seems to be working better. I am worried about adding too much protein to his system though.

Also, I have STOPPED giving him distilled water as I have read that it may cause mineral deficiency as the distilled water will leach minerals from the body - whether or not this is true is debatable but I have started giving filtered water instead.

At this time, he seems to be liking the two vet-prescribed foods (Hills and Royal Canin) (keeping fingers crossed that this just isn't a "couple-of-days kind of thing" so I am toggling between the two.

I am looking at alternating between a vet-prescribed diet and maybe a high quality canned food with a decent amount of protein. His internist said that we don't need to restrict protein as much as we are at the moment. She is looking into a better food for him too. I have read that it is best not to give a very low protein food but ensure that the protein is of high quality. I may also supplement with an egg yolk every day or few days. I read advice given by a vet that has studied the problems facing Havs and she suggests that milk thistle and an egg a day helped lower bile acids significantly in some dogs. She said that intermittently elevated bile acids are suspicious of microvascular dysplasia and that may be the case but, many Havanese have mild elevations in ALT and bile acids and are clinically asymptomatic (ie overtly healthy dogs.) She would not recommend expensive and invasive diagnostics to clinically normal dogs because the treatment for MVD is entirely symptomatic. Dogs with MVD will generally have elevated urine bile acids so I may have the urine bile acid/creatinine ratio looked at next time.

Right now I am waiting to hear from Mijo's regular GP as the internist said she'd touch base with him. Together they would discuss the following:
- which particular supplement they would like to give (I remember she metioned SAM E, milk thistle, denosyl and Hepatic something or other...)
- which regular protein diet to put Mijo on that would still help prevent urinary stones (a wet formula)
- to ask about incidences of heartworm and fleas in the area (as I mentioned I was worried to start Revolution as I did not want to tax his liver any more than necessary)

Also, I have found a site where a vet creates a diet especially for the problems an animal is having http://www.petdiets.com/ I don't know if I will go that far but I'm putting it out there just in case anyone else wants to try it.

PHEW! That's it for now. I will call Mijo's regular GP Monday afternoon if I still haven't heard from him. Back to reality... maybe after the weekend! :brick:

Connie


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## mellowbo

Wow Connie, that is a lot for you to swallow. The specialist sounds very competent. Am I reading this right that you could try a high quality protein with a lower protein percentage for a couple of months and see if the tests are better? (Does what I said make any sense?) Along with milk thisel, etc? YOU ARE AGREAT MOMMY FOR MIJO!!
Hugs
Carole


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## Leslie

Hugs to you Connie and special belly rubs for Mijo. He is so blessed to have such a great Hav-mommy!


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## Lina

Connie, what a bunch of things to learn all at once! You really are a wonderful Hav mom and Mijo is so lucky to be with you! :hug:


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## Cheryl

OK Connie--let me see if I understand. Although Mijo shows no other symptoms, the urinary chrystals are enough of a symptom to consider invasive diagnostics such as a biopsy? Perhaps his chrystals aren't as significant as believed because he has only done early morning specimans which produce a higher level of chrystals and chrystals can form in transport? The specialist is willing to try supplements plus a liver friendly diet and test again later?

I have recently started Roxie on Holistique Blendz Adult Dog--which is 18% protein and the protein comes from white fish. This allows her to have cottage cheese and egg snacks--and occasional chicken (which are also good protein for liver dogs.) To be truthful, Brutus is on the same diet because my vet feels he is getting enough protein and both dogs are thriving.

Thanks for updating us. I realize that you are overwelmed. Let us help anyway that we can. 


PS. Cornell does a protein C blood test that is supposed to distinguish between a shunt and MVD.


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## Tooetpulik

I sold a puli puppy back in 01 to a family with an older bichon with pretty severe liver shunt. He passed away last year at 14! With new advances there is hope for liver shunt dogs to live long lives with proper management. I hope this is the case with your baby.


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## Gracie's Mom

Connie - I haven't been logging on much lately. So, I apologize for not keeping up. I hope you can figure out what the problem is soon. Let me know if I can be of any help, as you know Gracie has liver problems herself. PM me anytime.

You are in my thoughts.


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## MaddiesMom

Gosh Connie- You sure did get alot of info to think about. It sounds like you are being very thorough. As far as the supplements, Denosyl is the dog formula of Sam-e. The milk thistle dog formula is Marin. As far as a hepato supplement, many of them have milk thistle, so it may just be a variation, and you really won't need 4 different supplements. The usual ones are Marin and Denosyl or you can use Danamarin which combines the two into a single supplement.

I'm glad Mijo is eating well. As Cheryl mentioned, if you need an alternate food, the Solid Gold Holistique Blendz is often recommended as a good food for liver dogs. We're all sending positive thoughts to you and Mijo. :grouphug:


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## Laurief

Oh Connie, I am so sorry to hear this news. I have had my fingers and pups have had their paws crossed for Mijo!! How frustrating to hear so many "ifs" and have to decide what is best for your baby. It sounds to me like the vet is leaning towards the exploratory, which I know is what you were trying to avoid. Our thoughts and prayers are with you and your family, and we hope you are able to make a decision that solves Mijo's issues so he can get back to the business of being a Hav!!


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## Salsa's Mom

Just sending positive thoughts your way for you and Mijo. :hug:


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## Me&2Girls

Connie - hugs to you and Mijo. Wow you really learned a lot - thanks for sharing and helping us all learn.


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## Trish

Hi Connie I am awed about how much information you have researched on Mijo's condition.it seems you need a medical background to understand all this information and to be able to sort it out. I am just familiarizing myself with this thread and all the possiblilites you have discussed and I am astounded on how you have been able to make some logical sense out of it all even though there is no concrete direction to go..several opinions to think about and the choice being up to you. It is amazing how many specialists are out there for our pups..human like in every way. It has been quite the education for me and I appreciate it that you are sharing every detail with us. We are always hear to support and comfort you and know you are the BEST Mommy for Mijo that he could ever have and you are doing an amazing job in taking such good care of him. Ever vigilant to how he is feeling and keeping close contacts with all the specialists and Vets in his life..a long life for Mijo I am sure of IT!!


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## Mijo's Mom

Hi Cheryl, first.. I am not sure if I'm using "multiquote" properly so I have changed my font to blue just to make sure you can see this.




Cheryl said:


> OK Connie--let me see if I understand. Although Mijo shows no other symptoms, the urinary chrystals are enough of a symptom to consider invasive diagnostics such as a biopsy? Perhaps his chrystals aren't as significant as believed because he has only done early morning specimans which produce a higher level of chrystals and chrystals can form in transport? The specialist is willing to try supplements plus a liver friendly diet and test again later?
> 
> Other than the crystals, the only other thing Mijo has is the elevated Bile Acids. This is why they want to biopsy. And yes, the specialist is willing to try supplements. She was supposed to talk to Mijo's regular vet and one of them would get back to me on the next course of action (type of supplement, possible change of food, advice on holding off on heartworm meds) but I haven't heard anything back yet. I have gone ahead and ordered Denamarin online and it should arrive soon. I figure, that can only help the situation, right?
> 
> I have recently started Roxie on Holistique Blendz Adult Dog--which is 18% protein and the protein comes from white fish. This allows her to have cottage cheese and egg snacks--and occasional chicken (which are also good protein for liver dogs.) To be truthful, Brutus is on the same diet because my vet feels he is getting enough protein and both dogs are thriving.
> 
> I will mention this food to whichever doctor calls me back first. I have not been giving him any cottage cheese because of the calcium oxalate crystals that he had. I just bought some pollack to add to his food and he seems to like it. Mijo is so finnicky, last time I wrote he was loving his food, yesterday and today he hates it.
> 
> Thanks for updating us. I realize that you are overwelmed. Let us help anyway that we can.
> 
> PS. Cornell does a protein C blood test that is supposed to distinguish between a shunt and MVD.


I am looking into that, thanks for the info Cheryl! The only thing is that I wouldn't know how to ship the blood once taken. I very quickly did an online quote on Fed Ex and it said it would take 2-3 days!!! Again, I'll ask whichever doctor calls me back first about this - I don't think they are aware of this test. It may have been a good idea to do it instead of the ultrasound which, as the internist said, showed nothing but doesn't mean that there couldn't possibly be a shunt. I hate inconclusive results!!!

Thanks for the info Cheryl! ((HUGS!))

Connie


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## marjrc

Wow, Connie. I could have written everything you did, word for word - except the urinary crystals part - as you are going through the exact same thing as we are with Ricky. You at least got the info very quickly, whereas I ended up having to do a ton of research on my own and I took forever to finally get to this point we are at. In the end, though, we are faced with supplementing, changing diet and considering exploratory biopsies. sigh....... 

Mijo isn't sickly at least. We can be thankful for that. It seems to confirm the 'no shunt' diagnosis, though the biopsy/scintography can show if there are any micro shunts inside the liver. Quebec doesn't have any scintography machines apparently so that wasn't an option for us, but there are other tests that are similar. It might be worth getting that done just to totally rule out any type of shunt at all. That's up to you.

I am glad you'll be adding protein to Mijo's diet. It's true that a high quality protein is ideal and reducing any protein can lead to other problems. If he had a shunt, then yes, low protein is necessary. I got a new book by Donald Strombeck and have learned from that as well.

You mention diets created for your dog. My internist gave me a few recipes catered to Ricky, but they use pearl tapioca as their source of protein. I'm not crazy about that, so am using chicken, white fish, eggs and ricotta/cottage cheese. They also use a special mixture of bone meal, supplements, vitamins that I'd have to order online and I'd rather use something I already have here. I've added rice and that should help Mijo as well. I cooked up brown rice, but it's white rice that is best, so I'm about to cook up some white rice in a few minutes.  The things we do! lol Denamarin is what we give Ricky too. Where did you order from and what were the shipping charges? I need to reorder and missed out on getting a U.S. PetRx.com order in in time for hubby to bring back from a business trip. 

I'm glad you got good info from your vet and internist. That is half the battle.


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## marjrc

I just had to add that I am SO grateful for this forum, a place with a large number of members who have a range of knowledge and experience and where there is a huge amount of love and support. As much as I wished that little Gracie, Mijo and Ricky didn't have to go through these tests, I'm at least glad that we have this place to come to when we need to vent, ask questions or just feel supported. ((((((hugs)))))


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## Mijo's Mom

Hi Marj, I only have a few minutes to write at the moment but will be on later to write more. Just wanted to let you know that I ordered with petcarerx.com and it cost 30.49 for the denamarin (I know, its $10 more than the price of other places) and 5.99 for shipping (which you don't have to pay if your order is over 35 dollars.. I found out when I ordered but at that point I didn't feel like changing my order - I want Mijo to start his supplements ASAP!) The reason I went with this place is because some other Canadian online places don't ship to Canada (can you imagine?!) or because they didn't carry Denamarin. The US places that carry it would cost between 20 and 30 dollars to ship so it would end up costing me more. I got an email last night saying it was shipped and would be here in 3-4 days so I'll let you know how quickly it comes.

Oh Marj, the likeness of our two guys problems makes my mind keep going back to this -- Is it possible that the Orijen we were both feeding our boys caused/aggravated their situation? I don't know...

Is the Protein C something that your vet would consider doing??? It would show the same results as a scintigraphy, MVD or shunt, right? Also, might your Ricky ALSO have crystals? I remember you said that you never got a urinalysis done. It might be something worth considering too.

Talk to you more soon!

Connie


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## Me&2Girls

Connie - I truly don't think it was the Orijen food - it may have been too high in protein but if you are dealing with liver issues, any high protein food is a bit much. Please, don't try and second guess yourself - just realize your sweet little guy has some issues that you are going to do the best you can from here on out to manage. Glad you found a place that would ship the supplements to Canada. I really feel for you guys having to deal with that. We are so lucky in the states.


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## marjrc

Connie, I really don't think Orijen or any other high protein food can cause liver issues. If the dog already has kidney issues or certain liver problems, not all of them, then a high amount of protein can cause problems. I really love Orijen and hope to have Ricky back on some of that eventually. Sammy does very well with it and I know so many dogs whose health have dramatically changed for the better from the switch to Orijen. 

Not one doc we've seen has sugg'd bladder crystals or anything related. I'm guessing he just doesn't have any other signs indicating it's a problem. Every single test for anything has been negative and normal. 

Thanks for the link. Ricky has to take for Medium dogs as he's 16 lbs., so the cost of those is $43.89 compared to $38 at Petrx. I'm going to check shipping costs as it may still be cheaper with your site. Thank you!


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## marjrc

:whoo: Connie, I just placed an order with petcarerx and the shipping really IS free! Oh my. I'm impressed. lol I placed it by phone as I kept getting an error online, regarding my province. Anyway, she said 5-7 days before we get it. Great!


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## Mijo's Mom

Hi Marj! Yes, I couldn't believe it either! I kept getting an error too so I did it online... the website said they were open till 10 but I called after 10 and low and behold they were open! I was considering getting a package of small dog and a package of medium but glad I stuck with just the small for now. Mijo is always between 10.8 and 11.6 but now that he's shaved down he's down to 7 or 8#. I haven't received the tabs yet but it should be any day now. Glad it worked out for you too! 

Connie


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## Cheryl

Wow! Mijo lost 2-3# by getting his hair cut? That sounds excessive to me.


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## Mijo's Mom

Yeah, it did to me too. I'm trying not to worry too much about it though... it WAS during one of his "I hate this food so I'm not eating till you give me something better" phase. I may take him in this week to get him re-weighed. I'll keep you posted on a weight.


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## Beamer

Connie, I dont think the hair weighs 3 or 4lbs... hehe
From size wise alone, Mijo looked a bit larger than Beamer, who is 10.5lbs. I also picked him up to... So I would say he is still around 11-12lbs like you said earlier!

Ryan


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## Mijo's Mom

Ryan, it is possible. After all, my dad was with him at the vet's picking up some food so it could have very well been a mistake on his part or the girl at the counter. It wouldn't be the first time that happened. In any case, I will pop by today and see for myself.

PS. I have some funny pics of Beamer getting a taste of his own medicine at the playdate but I keep getting error messages when I try to post them!

Connie


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## Cheryl

Beamer was being humped? Or please post the evidence soon!!!


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