# New puppy, but is he Havanese?



## Cubasmom (Jun 21, 2010)

Well....I went in Petland as I have many, many times to look at puppies.
Knowing full well it isn't be best choice for a puppy.
But it happened, I fell in love with a little guy and could not leave without him.
Sold as pure breed Havanese, but as I began to look pictures and read the standards, he doesn't look too much like a Havanese.
His ears stand up more like another breed.
Any comments would be appreciated.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Unfortunately, puppies sold in pet shops do not come from reputable breeders. They either come from back yard breeders (who may or may not know what they're doing or what medical history their dogs have) or they come from puppy mills. You can have a look here if you like: http://www.petshoppuppies.org/

You'll never know if your pup is a purebred nor what health issues run in it's family, but hopefully he will be a healthy dog and live a long and happy life.

Good luck to you and please visit other parts of the forum too if you want to read up on many other topics!


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## michi715 (Apr 8, 2008)

He's VERY cute! Congrats! It's very hard to tell how much his ears are standing up since he's looking up at you...more pictures please?


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

very cute. looks a bit like a yorkie hav mix. a yorkanese? How old is he? his ears could still fall. 

Good luck with your little pet store rescue. We all know it is not politically correct to buy from a pet store ...but it happens, and you know what... Cuba is no longer a pet store puppy. He is yours! welcome to the forum.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

There is a giant flea market near me that sells some designer dogs (unfortunately including wolf hybrids) and one of the common ones is a chorkie (chi x yorkie) and he looks just like them.


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## LilyMyLove (Jul 11, 2009)

Wolf hybrids? :jaw:


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

My cousins had a 1/4 wolf 3/4 lab when I was a kid. It was a great dog! LOL Although it looked a little scary, more wolf-looking than lab.

Your pup could be a Hav...looks like the ears are just flopping up, Roscoe's did this before they had more heavy hair on them. Maybe if you post some more pics we could tell better!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

marjrc said:


> Unfortunately, puppies sold in pet shops do not come from reputable breeders. They either come from back yard breeders (who may or may not know what they're doing or what medical history their dogs have) or they come from puppy mills. You can have a look here if you like: http://www.petshoppuppies.org/


Wow! What a great site to be able to send people to when they are contemplating a pet store puppy. Thanks for the link, Marj!


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Missy said:


> very cute. looks a bit like a yorkie hav mix. a yorkanese? How old is he? his ears could still fall.
> 
> Good luck with your little pet store rescue. We all know it is not politically correct to buy from a pet store ...but it happens, and you know what... Cuba is no longer a pet store puppy. He is yours! welcome to the forum.


Ditto. And welcome!


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Rosie's ears stood up as a puppy. Did they give you papers? But it really doesn't matter, you fell in love with him and now he's your special furbaby. Good luck and post more pictures.

Lucile


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

You're welcome, Karen. It's been a great site for learning and getting ideas for the pamphlets I made up last year.

I agree that now that the puppy is home with you, of course you will love him and enjoy the many fun times with him. I am looking forward to more pictures too!


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## Cubasmom (Jun 21, 2010)

Thanks everyone. He came with a papers, but I didn't realize he can not be registered with AKC, but only AKC Companion Partners.
Called Petland today, they tell me he is pure and can be registered, just not with AKC.
I'm new to dogs, someone help me out here????
Found the breeders name and goggled him. His site shows in addition to breeding Havanese, he breeds silky terriers that look exactly like my puppy.
The ears are just that big, even though he is looking up at me, they are huge!
I love him totally and he is healthy, he isn't going anywhere. But it's appears he could be half Havanese and Silky Terrier. Now what would you call that "Designer" breed?


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

A Havana Silk? Tee hee. Sorry a bit of an evil inside joke. I would just call Cuba adorable!


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## Miss Paige (Apr 4, 2008)

He is a cute little one no matter what the breed-or mix of breed. Just love him and know you rescued him from the store.

Pat (humom to)
Miss Paige
Mr Roman
Ms Frannie


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## LilyMyLove (Jul 11, 2009)

I personally wouldnt be proud of knowingly visiting a puppy mill peddler and then choosing to support the torture, mistreatment, and abuse of animals by choosing to purchase a puppy from there. Some people on this forum have purchased animals they later found to be from BYB or puppy mills, but at least they could plead ignorance.

If you file a report on petshoppuppies.com they can help you find more information out about the dog.

I think this video is particularly timely:
http://www.petshoppuppies.org/Petland.htm

If you are thinking of adding a new dog to your family please consider the Havanese rescue: http://www.havaneserescue.com/

*and if you are going the breeder route please read this:*
http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=7098


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Yup, looks like a HSD to me!! hahahahaahahah
Your fault MISSY!! lol

Ryan


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Ryan & Missy~ You're so bad! ound:


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## klomanchiodo (Jul 5, 2010)

You puppy is so very cute...I can see how Cuba ran away with your heart. The yorkie I share with my parents came from a pet store. And my last baby, Oreo, was a stray that I took in. He was with me for 15 years, and I never knew what he was (he looked like a border collie that had been shrunk down to a 15 lb. papillion size). Love him for who he is an the joy that he brings you. Please post more pictures - we love to see them grow.


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

Cuba is very cute. Congrats on getting a new puppy. I'm sure you'll enjoy him.



Cubasmom said:


> Thanks everyone. He came with a papers, but I didn't realize he can not be registered with AKC, but only AKC Companion Partners.
> Called Petland today, they tell me he is pure and can be registered, just not with AKC.


I don't know about AKC Companion Partners--never heard of that before. A dog is only registerable with AKC if both parents are purebreds that have been previously registered with them. In this case I would imagine the parents weren't registered then. When the petstore says the dog can be registered with another registry...well there are plenty of registries happy to take your money and register the dog as whatever you want. The registration isn't really worth much then though is it? I wouldn't bother to register him if I were you. Just enjoy him as he is.

So far as what you would call the breed. Traditionally he is either a purebred or a mutt. There are all kinds of cutesy designer names you could come up with but I don't know what you would choose since you really don't know for sure what he is. For now I would just go with Havanese and see how he turns out. I have seen a couple on here before that had sticky-uppy ears that eventually laid down once they grew a little more hair and had some weight.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I think AKC companion partners is the program AKC uses for mixed breed dogs to partake in performance events. So it is interesting they would say he is pure bred but to register him under there.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ama0722 said:


> I think AKC companion partners is the program AKC uses for mixed breed dogs to partake in performance events. So it is interesting they would say he is pure bred but to register him under there.


It's "Canine Partners", and yes, it is specifically for registering mixed breed dogs with AKC to track their points if they compete in AKC Obedience, Rally or Agility. (which opened to mixed breeds this year)

From the AKC site:

"The AKC Canine PartnersSM Program is open to spayed/
neutered mixed-breed dogs, purebred dogs not eligible
for AKC registration or AKC Foundation Stock Service
(FSS), and dogs not currently enrolled in AKC Purebred
Alternative Listing (PAL)."

PAL is for purebred dogs that are not eligible for registration. (such as strays, shelter dogs who are recognizable members of an AKC registerable breed or the zillions of ex-racing Greyhounds who are passed on without papers)

From the AKC site:

"Enrollment in the Purebred Alternative Listing/Indefinite Listing Privilege program is not to be construed as an alternative form of registration, but rather, as a listing so that dogs who are ineligible for AKC registration may participate in AKC Companion and Performance Events. A PAL/ILP may be cancelled for cause."

Cute as he is, this little guy would not qualify for Pal listing, because he looks more like a terrier than a Hav.

Dogs enrolled in either Canine Partners or PAL must be neutered before being enrolled.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

krandall said:


> Cute as he is, this little guy would not qualify for Pal listing, because he looks more like a terrier than a Hav.


Karen-I think your experience is just from reading not being at shows and seeing the dogs. I would bet at least a few years ago you could easily ILP this dog! Well now that AKC has open for all mixed breeds this isn't an issue. But there are TONS of questionable mixed breeds ILP'ed as a breed. I know quite a few dogs who are known mixed breeds ILP'ed as a breed as at the time (shaved, tail held, pictures taking from an angle, etc), they couldn't play in AKC unless the owner lied. All it took was 2 pictures to be sent in. In fact, there was a big issue with a dog a few years ago who was competing in one registery as one breed and in AKC as another.

Back when I lived in Ohio with a big petland industry, my girlfriends would always joke just ILP it as a Havanese as no one knows what they are anyway!


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## trueblue (Jan 22, 2008)

ama0722 said:


> Karen-I think your experience is just from reading not being at shows and seeing the dogs. I would bet at least a few years ago you could easily ILP this dog! Well now that AKC has open for all mixed breeds this isn't an issue. But there are TONS of questionable mixed breeds ILP'ed as a breed. I know quite a few dogs who are known mixed breeds ILP'ed as a breed as at the time (shaved, tail held, pictures taking from an angle, etc), they couldn't play in AKC unless the owner lied. All it took was 2 pictures to be sent in. In fact, there was a big issue with a dog a few years ago who was competing in one registery as one breed and in AKC as another.
> 
> Back when I lived in Ohio with a big petland industry, my girlfriends would always joke just ILP it as a Havanese as no one knows what they are anyway!


Just curious...what does ILP mean?


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Kim- indefinite listing privilege. It was the program previously where the dog had to be sp/neutered and you submitted two pics to claim it was an AKC breed then you could do obedience, rally, agility, etc in AKC. It usually took a few weeks and I only know of one dog being turned down (it was a very far fetch!) Now it irrelevant because AKC is letting everyone play (which is good!) I honestly believe the more people who train with their dogs the more dogs that will never get rehomed.


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## jillnors2 (Apr 12, 2007)

> I don't know about AKC Companion Partners--never heard of that before


 AKC Canine Partners is for Mixed breeds -I have one of my Mixed Breed rescues registered as Canine Partner only so he can perform in AKC agility and Rally events.

Personally, I would never buy a Havanese that was not AKC registered.

He is a doll and good luck to you.

ETA: AKc now has the PAL instead of the ILP number, it is for 'Purebred Alternative Listing', this is for purebreds that are picked up in shelters, etc, that do not have an AKC number. This is different than the Canine Partners which is for Mixed Breeds only


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Missy said:


> A Havana Silk? Tee hee. Sorry a bit of an evil inside joke. I would just call Cuba adorable!


ound:


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Good luck with your puppy.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Cuba is just adorable. Enjoy your new baby. Regardless of where he came from, or exactly what breed he is, he deserves love and care just exactly like any other dog born to good breeders. Sometimes the heart trumps the head when it comes to puppies.  Does it really matter if he can or cannot be registered? If you don't plan to breed him (and I hope you don't), or enter him in AKC events, registration really doesn't mean anything. My girls are all AKC registered and all that means is that in their puppy books I have a piece of paper that says so.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Beamer said:


> Yup, looks like a HSD to me!! hahahahaahahah
> Your fault MISSY!! lol
> 
> Ryan


I couldn't resist! Havanese? Silky terrier? I mean come on!

But yes I see no reason to register if he is pet. We didn't get paperswith Jasper so didn't want to play favorites and register cash.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Good luck with that little cutie pie!! I agree with all, whatever he is - he is adorable!

When I first got Lily I decided not to register her - but I didn't really quite understand the reasons to register. So when the other two came, I didn't register them either. For me it would only be a very expensive piece of paper, cause they are just pets to me.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Laurief said:


> Good luck with that little cutie pie!! I agree with all, whatever he is - he is adorable!
> 
> When I first got Lily I decided not to register her - but I didn't really quite understand the reasons to register. So when the other two came, I didn't register them either. For me it would only be a very expensive piece of paper, cause they are just pets to me.


Just to be clear, registering your dog with AKC is NOT expensive. Basic registration is $20. For $15 more, you can enroll in their lost and found option, where they keep all your dog's info on file, including their microchip # in case they are ever lost. They send you an AKC tag with their 800 number so that anyone who finds your dog can have access to information to get him back to you easily.

While microchips are good, people have to know they are there to ask someone to read them. This program can give people access to MUCH more information than I could fit on his name tag. (they even include his vet's contact info, and a couple of extra emergency contacts in case they can't get in touch with you) It seemed to me to be really cheap insurance. It didn't seem like an "expensive piece of paper" at all.

BTW, I believe this lost and found service is available for PAL and Canine Partner dogs too.


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## Cubasmom (Jun 21, 2010)

Hi Everyone! I'm overwhelmed with so many responses to my post, and the vast amount of knowledge coming forth. It's all much appreciated.
Took Cuba to PetLand today, and to my surprise the two managers on the floor said, indeed he is not Havanese and that hey would contact the breeder.
At this point I am not sure he is even "Halfanese"
To those of you in horror that I would admit purchasing from PetLand.......Please lighten up. Not everyone is born understanding where these animals come from or how they are marketed.


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## LilyMyLove (Jul 11, 2009)

Cubasmom said:


> Hi Everyone! I'm overwhelmed with so many responses to my post, and the vast amount of knowledge coming forth. It's all much appreciated.
> Took Cuba to PetLand today, and to my surprise the two managers on the floor said, indeed he is not Havanese and that hey would contact the breeder.
> At this point I am not sure he is even "Halfanese"
> To those of you in horror that I would admit purchasing from PetLand.......Please lighten up. Not everyone is born understanding where these animals come from or how they are marketed.


No one is born understanding where these animals are from, but when you say and I quote: "Well....I went in Petland as I have many, many times to look at puppies. *Knowing full well *it isn't be best choice for a puppy." I take that to mean that you did have knowledge about pet shop puppies. I wasn't "horrified" that you admitted it, but I was surprised and dissappointed that someone would knowingly support such an industry. If I misinterpreted you, I apologize.

Because people are not born knowing these things, I felt it was important to point out to the many people that browse on this forum in search of info about Havanese puppies that this is NOT a humane way to go about selecting a companion animal. Its easy to get caught up in how adorable a puppy is, and Cuba *is* adorable-I'm happy for you, and hopefully love and care for him. Whats done is done. But in order to stop the supply, people have to stop the demand.

Growing up in the midwest, my family is from generations of people in Agricultural Business, and we all still are, and I have to say that even seeing tons of farms, livestock, commodities, etc I find it truly appalling the way these Multi Million dollar companies treat these loving sweet dogs. So respectfully, I won't lighten up about it.

Regardless, I wish you all the best with Cuba. Take Care. eace:


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

We have had many discussions on puppy mills and pet store puppies. You bought your puppy before reading those. He is yours now and you love him. Time will tell if he will look like the standard or not. Welcome to the Forum

What will the pet store or breeder do if he is a "Halfanese"? Take the puppy back, refund half your purchase price?

Enjoy your puppy…….


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Cubasmom said:


> Hi Everyone! I'm overwhelmed with so many responses to my post, and the vast amount of knowledge coming forth. It's all much appreciated.
> Took Cuba to PetLand today, and to my surprise the two managers on the floor said, indeed he is not Havanese and that hey would contact the breeder.
> At this point I am not sure he is even "Halfanese"
> To those of you in horror that I would admit purchasing from PetLand.......Please lighten up. Not everyone is born understanding where these animals come from or how they are marketed.


We all know that many (if not most) of the people who buy puppies from pet stores have no idea of the horrendous conditions the parents come from, or the other potential problems with purchasing puppy mill puppies. That's why people on this list (many of whom have made the same mistake you have in the past!) are so vocal about trying to educate readers. The comments aren't directed specifically to you... We know you love your puppy, and now that you have already bought him, the deed is done. We really all DO want you to be happy with him, no matter what his heritage.

I also have to say that I *LOVE* your name for his "breed"... "Halfanese is perfect!:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

LilyMyLove said:


> No one is born understanding where these animals are from, but when you say and I quote: "Well....I went in Petland as I have many, many times to look at puppies. *Knowing full well *it isn't be best choice for a puppy." I take that to mean that you did have knowledge about pet shop puppies. I wasn't "horrified" that you admitted it, but I was surprised and dissappointed that someone would knowingly support such an industry. If I misinterpreted you, I apologize.
> 
> Because people are not born knowing these things, I felt it was important to point out to the many people that browse on this forum in search of info about Havanese puppies that this is NOT a humane way to go about selecting a companion animal. Its easy to get caught up in how adorable a puppy is, and Cuba *is* adorable-I'm happy for you, and hopefully love and care for him. Whats done is done. But in order to stop the supply, people have to stop the demand.
> 
> ...


Meghan, I have never met you, but I love your posts. I hope one day I am lucky enough to meet you. Your insight, honesty and passion I so respect.
THANK YOU.


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## oohbetty (Mar 2, 2009)

Pet store puppies deserve homes too. He's so cute, you'll love him.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Cuba's Mom, all kidding aside. We have all just grown to love this breed so much that it hurts us to think of some bitch never being given a chance to be happy and carefree like a Havanese. And I am one of those who got my first from a less than perfect breeder, so I do understand. 

Now, about the name...if he is not even a "halfanese"...I think you may need to change his name to something less cuban and more Celtic. or if your not sure you could hedge and call him Che (like the cuban revolutionary) but pronounce it Shay which sounds oh so like one of those British Isle terrier names. 

I do think the bottom line is that he stole your heart. And he will now never know what a mill is like.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

I'm going to throw in my 2 cents here since this is a public forum...

Never knew what a puppy mill was but now I do, I would think most people do with all of the news coverage that's been on over the past several years. Why anyone would even set foot in a pet store that sells puppies, especially Petland, is beyond me.

I suggest reading "Saving Gracie" by Carol Bradley. I just finished it and had to put it down several times because I was just overwhelmed by what I was reading and trying to put myself into the shoes of the the investigators. After reading this book it just makes me want to do more to stop puppy mills and the stores that keep them in business. I don't know what I'll do yet, whether it's just fostering again, more work with HRI, researching the laws in GA, I just don't know. I'm enraged, sickened, sad, depressed, and heartbroken thinking of the lives these dogs lead. It has to stop and it won't as long as people continue to buy from these places because the puppy was "cute".


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

LilyMyLove said:


> No one is born understanding where these animals are from, but when you say and I quote: "Well....I went in Petland as I have many, many times to look at puppies. *Knowing full well *it isn't be best choice for a puppy." I take that to mean that you did have knowledge about pet shop puppies. I wasn't "horrified" that you admitted it, but I was surprised and dissappointed that someone would knowingly support such an industry. If I misinterpreted you, I apologize.
> 
> Because people are not born knowing these things, I felt it was important to point out to the many people that browse on this forum in search of info about Havanese puppies that this is NOT a humane way to go about selecting a companion animal. Its easy to get caught up in how adorable a puppy is, and Cuba *is* adorable-I'm happy for you, and hopefully love and care for him. Whats done is done. But in order to stop the supply, people have to stop the demand.
> 
> ...


Agreed. IMO, it's one thing to find it difficult to differentiate a BYB from a breeder who breeds registered, health-tested dogs, it's another thing to buy a dog from a pet store.

I fully understand the feeling of needing to "rescue" a dog from a pet store. There is a pet store in the mall near my old home that I would walk into every day while I was on my break at work. There was this one puppy that was there for a long time, I went and held her and loved on her every day. I wanted to buy her, but I just couldn't do it. Instead, I gave her the love she deserved every day until finally someone purchased her. I just couldn't support that industry.

I hope that one day it's illegal everywhere in North America for dogs and cats to be sold in pet stores. This is really, honestly the only way that we can eliminate puppy mills and unethical BYBs.

Cuba is a cutie, and I hope that you two have a wonderful life together


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Ann, we can talk about some ways you can help fight pet shops if you like.... when we're in San Mateo. I have ideas. 

Meghan, you took words out of my mouth.That is the impression I got too. It's true that this puppy doesn't deserve to be miserable, he didn't choose where he was born, and is very lucky to have a home that will love him and treat him well. He likely came from a puppy mill, but was already "saved" by leaving it to go to a pet store. The dam and sire on the other hand.... and that's where many of us have issue. 

I see customers in the store I work at (selling health food for cats and dogs) that have bought their puppies in stores or online, not knowing a thing about how that puppy was bred or it's background and as much as I want to shake them and yell at them for doing what they did, I then think that maybe they genuinely didn't have a clue. I mean, 4 yrs. ago I had no clue! As I was working on hubby to get our own dog, I went in to those pet stores and ooohed and aaahed over all the pups in there. I thought that it was either buy one there, from a newspaper ad or at the shelter. Most people I know don't actually realize anything is wrong with that. It's shocking, but true.... 

I don't think it's in the media enough, or that the outrage is loud enough because laws would be changed. There is a lot of work to be done so that more people can know what goes on behind the scenes. Ann, how your book has been affecting you is exactly how my books on factory farming have affected me. If only more people knew the truth...


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Welcome to the forum. Everyone here is very passionate as you can see. It is hard to resist the cute faces in puppy shops. My Shih Tzu had a PAL/IPL listing after I rescued him the Shih Tzus Fanciers sent in the paper work and did it for me in case I wanted to do a sport with him (I never did). I may do that again with Yogi who can from a rescue. I can't wait to watch your baby grow. Only time will tell how he will turn out. But I know whatever he is loved.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

IMO, in a perfect world, everyone would do their homework before bringing any dog home. That would help immensely in the fight against puppy mills. The fact is, however, we are a nation of people who want instant gratification and, for the most part, we are a nation of compassion. Seeing an adorble puppy in cage in a pet store just begging for a loving home is very, very hard to resist. I think education PRIOR to the purchase is so much better than scolding after the fact. Cuba is home now and deserves all good things. 
That said, we DO need to fight puppy mills and we need to fight hard.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Cubasmom said:


> Hi Everyone! I'm overwhelmed with so many responses to my post, and the vast amount of knowledge coming forth. It's all much appreciated.
> Took Cuba to PetLand today, and to my surprise the two managers on the floor said, indeed he is not Havanese and that hey would contact the breeder.
> At this point I am not sure he is even "Halfanese"
> To those of you in horror that I would admit purchasing from PetLand.......Please lighten up. Not everyone is born understanding where these animals come from or how they are marketed.


Why did you take that puppy back to the store? It is my understanding you thought you had questioned his breed even when you purchased him? What good would it do to call his back yard breeder or puppy miller? It seems like the most that person would do would be to give you a partial refund for false advertising or something....and then that would also reflect back on the store itself. If you entered a store and fell in love with the dog enough to buy it and bring it home then what would it matter? Basically you over paid for a mixed breed (mutt) no matter what.

I hope you enjoy your pup and he doesn't have to suffer from the same fate his parents did.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Should you wish to know more about that store or even the puppy you got, Cubasmom, here is a link that might interest you:http://www.petshoppuppies.org/psppuppyreport.htm It offers a "Free Puppy Report". It might answer some of the questions you had in your original post.


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## Judy -- Toby & Jaime's mo (Apr 21, 2007)

*Puppy mill rescue*

Having adopted a puppy mill breeding dog about 20 months ago who knew nothing good of the world. Her spirit has come out and I dearly love her, but she still has lots of quirks but she is so cute. She does not play with toys and she has only has a few RLH's with other dogs -- I keep hoping those will come some day. People are always commenting on how cute she is and I use it as an opportunity to tell her story. I am totally amazed, but 8 or 9 people out of ten still don't know what a puppy mill is . . . UGH! Then with so many internet sites that sounds like they are wonderful breeders, but they are really puppy mills . . . . UGH. I am in Ohio and I hear people talk about going down to Amish Country and they bought a dog on a farm . . . . a puppy mill farm . . . UGH! In one of the hot tourist spots in Amish country -- Berlin, Ohio there is a pet store right in town -- with I am sure fresh from the puppy mill puppies.

I am currently fostering another breeding puppy mill female rescue who also went through hell on earth. Here is a face to the other side of puppy mills when they get rescued. This was taken yesterday in the car, where I am doing car therapy with her (she was soaked from drool and vomit when I brought her home -- as she had to change foster homes after two months -- crazy story why that happened) to begin the process of getting her used to cars. I had the same thing with Dori (and she now loves to go bye bye in the car), and Dori's presence is definately calming Clover/Chloe down. You can see the drool from Clover from just a couple of minutes sitting in the car. Dori is on the right -- their faces look so much alike -- in the picture Chloe actually looks happier than Dori -- just the picture!

Judy
Mom to Jaime and Dori
Foster mom to Clover/Chloe


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## sprorchid (Mar 30, 2010)

Just to give a reponse to the OP's original question, I think you have a silky terrier, which looks an aweful lot like a yorkie.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

Julie said:


> Why did you take that puppy back to the store? It is my understanding you thought you had questioned his breed even when you purchased him? What good would it do to call his back yard breeder or puppy miller? It seems like the most that person would do would be to give you a partial refund for false advertising or something....and then that would also reflect back on the store itself. If you entered a store and fell in love with the dog enough to buy it and bring it home then what would it matter? Basically you over paid for a mixed breed (mutt) no matter what.
> 
> I hope you enjoy your pup and he doesn't have to suffer from the same fate his parents did.


I saw on TV that Petland requires pet purchasers to bring their dog to the vet at Petland for the first 6 months of its life. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they make you sign a contract. Ridiculous.


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## Gizmo'sMom (Jul 9, 2010)

If they refund some of your money then it is good you brought her there, as long as you get to keep her  That way less of your money is going to the store/mill/byb. 

Hope you have a great time with your new puppy!


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## Cubasmom (Jun 21, 2010)

Just an update and thank you to all who have responded to my posts.
For those of you who simply do not understand.....I understand.
There has not been a dog/puppy in my life for maybe 35 years.
Although, I have heard people say, "Don't purchase pets from a pet shop", no one ever went on to explain why.
What I know, I have learned after I brought Cuba home.
I took him back into Petland because I wanted to know how they would handle the situation. And yes, if there is a refund or part refund, I do expect that. As I certainly over paid for the dog.
Petland and I will work that out.
This is most likely my last pet, and I wanted him to be a really good fit. The Havanese breed seemed to be exactly what I wanted.
What I have is maybe half Havanese, but a lot of Yorkie attitude. 
A Havanese is in my future, and that means two dogs........but not a bad thing.
So.....now that I know how to purchase a pet.......any suggestions of a Havanese breeder in Florida would be appreciated.
Experience.......is priceless?


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## Cubasmom (Jun 21, 2010)

Yes, I think you are correct. Although Petland and the broker say he is mostly Yorkie.
I goggled the breeder site and he breeds the silky terrier as well as Havanese.
I have learned so much in the past month.


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## Cubasmom (Jun 21, 2010)

Thanks! It's a game they will play from here on out.


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## trueblue (Jan 22, 2008)

Cubasmom said:


> Just an update and thank you to all who have responded to my posts.
> For those of you who simply do not understand.....I understand.
> There has not been a dog/puppy in my life for maybe 35 years.
> Although, I have heard people say, "Don't purchase pets from a pet shop", no one ever went on to explain why.
> ...


Natalie (galaxie) can let you know about breeders in FL. She got her puppies from the same breeder. Enjoy your puppy and post more pics!


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## Gizmo'sMom (Jul 9, 2010)

Glad to hear you are getting a second puppy  and I hope they give you a good amount back! I had the same issue with the people saying no pet stores and "reputable breeder" but never really knowing what I was looking for or why. I always thought the reason was that the dog wouldn't have any gentic issues later and figured that if my dog did I would help him/her the best I could and love them no less. I never knew it was because of the conditions it promoted for the parents. Our older dog when I was a child had hip and eye issues and we found him on the side of the road and he lived a long time with us and we were able to manage his issues mostly with aspirin and a few visits to the vet. I always assumed it was things like that and figured thats what vets and pet insurance is for. 

Hope you enjoy your new puppy and eventually your second!


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## Cubasmom (Jun 21, 2010)

Thanks, have not learned how to use the site yet, making mistakes.
But will post more pics, of Cuba as I learn how to post correctly.
May need to change his name to something less Havanese. I'm thinking Wolf.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

I am glad you both mentioned that no one really explained "why" it wasn't a good idea to buy in pet shops. I don't often mention health issues, to be honest, because like you said Chrissy, many people are more than willing to take those one should they occur. My point has always been about those producing these pups , left behind in a mill and the life they are forced to lead. Thanks for letting us know what you knew and what you weren't aware of as it will only encourage those who want to help ban this practice know what discussions to have. 

I like the name 'Wolf' for a small dog. Cute!


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## Cubasmom (Jun 21, 2010)

The internet is an amazing tool to get the information out.
And the forums are excellent, so much combined knowledge.
Based on what I am learning the AKC supports it all as well, what a mess that is.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

^ Roscoe and Stella both came from Janet Birdsall at Yuppy Puppy Havanese in Ocala, FL! She is a wonderful breeder, and a super nice lady  I couldn't be happier with my babies!


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## Cubasmom (Jun 21, 2010)

Thank you Galaxie!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

all's well that ends well! good luck with Cuba/wolf and good luck with your search for your Havanese.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Cubasmom said:


> Just an update and thank you to all who have responded to my posts.
> For those of you who simply do not understand.....I understand.
> There has not been a dog/puppy in my life for maybe 35 years.
> Although, I have heard people say, "Don't purchase pets from a pet shop", no one ever went on to explain why.
> ...


I'm glad you are trying to get some of your money back from Petland... They owe it to you! And as most people have said, your puppy is adorable, no matter what he is. If he has some "terrorer" in him... well, you'll learn to handle him anyway, and love him because of his extra bit of feistiness. And in a year or so, when you are ready for a little brother or sister to keep him company, you'll have a better idea where to look.

I can't help with Florida breeders, but I know there are a number of Florida owners, some of whom are VERY happy with their breeders. I'm sure they'll chime in on that front!

Everyone makes mistakes, the important thing is to learn from them. And you've been a good sport to put up with the brou-ha-ha that often stirs up around here when puppy mill issues rear their ugly head. Welcome!


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## Wildflower (Dec 6, 2009)

Cubasmom said:


> Although, I have heard people say, "Don't purchase pets from a pet shop", no one ever went on to explain why.


When I first started hearing about not purchasing from a pet store, I thought it was similar to not purchasing anything from big retailers. That we should purchase from a "mom and pop" store vs. Walmart. Now I know the reason why -- but I sure didn't for years.


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## Brady's Grandmom (Nov 11, 2008)

Bacca also came from Janet Birdsall and Yuppy Puppy Havanese. I couldn't be happier with my baby. We actually purchased him as an adult(he was a young retired show dog) and he was everything Janet said he was and more!


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## irishnproud2b (Jan 13, 2009)

And please don't forget to check out our wonderful Havanese rescues who are looking for their forever home! I have fostered 2 so far and have fallen in love with both! They are now each in a fabulous home and will have the happy, loving life they deserve!! So please check out our rescue site before adding your second dog. You will be so glad you did!


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## Cubasmom (Jun 21, 2010)

Hi Everyone!
Just an update on my little Halfanese.
Petland, Ft Myers, Fl refunded 100% of the cost of the puppy and I keep Cuba.
It was the right thing to do, I am please they did step up.
Cuba is not the dog I wanted but he is the dog I have.
Sometimes the wrong dog is the right dog.
I love him dearly and if I can get him to slow down long enough I'll post pictures.
Thanks to all for your thoughts and ideas.


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## hav2 (Feb 26, 2010)

Good for you and Cuba!


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

Glad to hear this news.
Have lots of fun with Cuba and post pictures.!


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## trueblue (Jan 22, 2008)

Wow...I'm surprised they stepped up and did the right thing. Good for you! Please post more pics of Cuba.


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## kudo2u (Mar 7, 2009)

I've been following this along (silently). I'm so glad that your money was refunded, and you got to keep Cuba/Wolf!!!

I hope the two of you have a very long, very happy life together. I'm sure you will be a great pet owner, and I'm sure that as you gain more knowledge, the two of you will grow and develop a special bond. 

If you decide to get a second dog, I also have no doubt that you'll find a good fit for you and for Cuba. I very much applaud you for sticking by your original decision, for going back to the pet store to make things "right" and for using this as a learning experience going forward. A very positive situation in my book!

As for the pet shop debate, I also grew up hearing you should never buy a pet from a pet store. No one EVER said why. I made my own assumptions, based on my limited knowledge, and decided (based on nothing) that it's because the petstore itself was a bad place for puppies to be. They don't get to play with their littermates, they are kept in tiny little kennels all day, left alone in the dark all night, it must be very traumatic for the poor little pups.

I've "rescued" many dogs through my life (mostly from the side of the road), rehabilitated, and rehomed. Tango was my first TRUE rescue - she was a puppy mill bitch. I've told the story of how we found each other, so I don't bore you with details again here. She was a very, very difficult rehabilitation. She will never be a "normal" hav, but I think I love her more than any dog I've ever know.

Now that I understand WHY you should never buy from a petstore, I'm very adamant in explaining to people what happens to the PARENTS of pet store puppies, I tell Tango's story, and her quirks that she still hasn't outgrown, even after five + years of TLC.

I think the issue is that people 1) don't understand why "they" say not to buy a puppy from a pet store, and 2) have a hard time believing the stories, because we all (or at least I) think that humans are inherently good, and could never treat another living creature that way. That's why it's been so effective for me to tell Tango's story, because I have firsthand seen the conditions, rehabilitated a beautiful dog, and deal every day with how she was not allowed to be a "real" dog for the first 5-6 years of her life.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Cubasmom, good for you! Awesome that you've been able to stand up for your rights, and get to keep Cuba who you've come to love, too. Now you can really understand and help explain to others some of the many dangers of petstore/puppy mill dogs. I hope you both have a terrific, long life together!

Way to go!


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## Judy -- Toby & Jaime's mo (Apr 21, 2007)

*The mom for puppy store puppies*

These are some of the faces of puppy mill Havanese bitches (sorry I have always hated using that term) rescues. As I recently posted we just adopted our second puppy mill rescue after failing fostering. It is so rewarding to see a dog change from terrified to happy and loving. My dream is to see them play and that has not happened. Dori has had a few RLH runs, so far none for Chloe. Two years in a puppy mill sure saps the life out of these guys, but so worth the effort to rehabilitate.

As Maya Angelo says "When you know better, you do better."

Judy
Mom to Jaime, Dori, and Chloe


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## jetsetgo! (Aug 3, 2010)

What a heartwarming end to a tough start in life. She is really beautiful. I'm so glad she is safe with you and hope the babies bond soon.


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## Judy -- Toby & Jaime's mo (Apr 21, 2007)

*Clarifying the black and white Hav pictures*

Just to clarify the pictures (included again below) -- these are pictures of two Havanese-- that very coincidently just happen to look so much alike.

Dori is at the top and she has been out of a mill for two years and is now 3.5 years. We have had her since November, 2008.

Chloe is at the bottom and she has been out of a mill for 2.5 months and she is 2.5 years. We have had her for 2.5 weeks.

Judy
Mom to Jaime, Dori, and Chloe


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## Gizmo'sMom (Jul 9, 2010)

Judy -- Toby & Jaime's mo said:


> Just to clarify the pictures (included again below) -- these are pictures of two Havanese-- that very coincidently just happen to look so much alike.
> 
> Dori is at the top and she has been out of a mill for two years and is now 3.5 years. We have had her since November, 2008.
> 
> ...


They look like Gizmo


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## klomanchiodo (Jul 5, 2010)

So, now that Cuba is part of the family....more photos please. We'd love to see how he is growing up!


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## kudo2u (Mar 7, 2009)

I agree, more photos of Cuba, please!!!


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## cjsud (Oct 26, 2008)

No No they look like Hobbes

Just a question what happens to the pups NOT sold in the petshop? Like when they age out and are not puppies any more? Do the breeders take them back? do they go to shelters or to rescues? I'm just saying if you take in a rescue or shelter dog I know the breeder isn't getting any money but you still have the same dog and feel like you did a good thing?? I would think thats why people feel they are saving a dog at a pet shop. It could get confusing for people who don't do the research.


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

cjsud said:


> No No they look like Hobbes
> 
> Just a question what happens to the pups NOT sold in the petshop? Like when they age out and are not puppies any more? Do the breeders take them back? do they go to shelters or to rescues? I'm just saying if you take in a rescue or shelter dog I know the breeder isn't getting any money but you still have the same dog and feel like you did a good thing?? I would think thats why people feel they are saving a dog at a pet shop. It could get confusing for people who don't do the research.


I don't know about pet shops but if a puppy mill breeder can't sell the puppies/adults they can legally be killed (shooting/drowning) which many do. Many don't want to give them to a rescue/shelter because that would bring down their prices.


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## cjsud (Oct 26, 2008)

Oh geez!!


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## Gizmo'sMom (Jul 9, 2010)

I think they just keep lowering the price at the store until someone pays...when I got Gizmo I remember seeing really low prices on the "older" dogs that were like 4-6 months. They probably eventually get sold.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

cjsud said:


> No No they look like Hobbes
> 
> Just a question what happens to the pups NOT sold in the petshop? Like when they age out and are not puppies any more? Do the breeders take them back? do they go to shelters or to rescues? I'm just saying if you take in a rescue or shelter dog I know the breeder isn't getting any money but you still have the same dog and feel like you did a good thing?? I would think thats why people feel they are saving a dog at a pet shop. It could get confusing for people who don't do the research.


Usually, rescues will go in and negotiate with pet stores when they see that they have older dogs that do not have homes. It's bad business for the pet store to keep "old" dogs around, as customers might figure out what's up, so they usually give them up to the rescues.

It is NOT legal for pet stores to euthanize or otherwise kill pet dogs they have not sold. I don't know about the legalities surrounding mills, though.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Shelters around here often get dogs that are "too old" for pet stores to sell. Unfortunately, there are also sales and markdowns on these puppies.... as if you're actually getting a "deal" ! Sheesh !

It's true that some dogs you get from shelters and rescues come from mills, either older producing dogs or pups, so you'll get the health issues, the socialization and house training problems. Adopting this same puppy from the shelter, however, is really saving the pup. When "saving" from a pet shop, you are putting more than half of the cost into the store's pockets so they make a profit and keep doing what they're doing. You are also putting the rest of the cost into the brokers and/or mill operators' pockets, allowing them to make a profit.

The shelter who saved this dog from the pet store (yes, it means there's a spot available for the next puppy, but at least no profits were made anywhere), hardly make a cent doing this. Operating costs for these shelters are pretty high, as well as vet checks, surgeries and behavior evaluations. Not all shelters are that thorough, but many are and those are the ones that have a higher success rate in getting these pups adopted out.

As 'cruel' as it sounds, if a pup doesn't get to a shelter from the pet store, or is given freely to an interested owner, then I would rather have a puppy humanely euthanized than sold. If a pet store does so badly with its sales, it will eventually close down.


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## LilyMyLove (Jul 11, 2009)

marjrc said:


> As 'cruel' as it sounds, if a pup doesn't get to a shelter from the pet store, or is given freely to an interested owner, then I would rather have a puppy humanely euthanized than sold. If a pet store does so badly with its sales, it will eventually close down.


Its very sad to say Marj, but I agree. It's very short sighted to think you are saving puppies by buying them from pet stores. That at least stops the cycle of misery.

I think its very delusional to say you are going to buy a Havanese at a pet store or puppy mill to rescue it. How many Havanese do you really think languish away at pet stores with no one to love them or want them? There are obviously other people willing to purchase these dogs.


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