# Chondrodysplasia



## agilitygrandma (Apr 3, 2007)

Teddy is three years old and has recently been diagnosed with chondrodysplasia. He has dysplasia of his elbow, and the leg bone is very curved. One leg is more severely affected than the other one, although the other leg does have this to a lesser degree. I understand now that this is rather common in Havanese dogs. The specialist that we were referred to and saw yesterday said that Teddy's is moderate and that surgery isn't necessary at this time, and may never be. Does anyone have any experience with this?


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Teddy is gorgeous!! My dogs dont have that specifically but they do have luxating patellas which can make them lame. But they are all very active happy pups, really dont show any symptoms. It is good news that they dont think surgery is necessary. Welcome to the forum.
Laurie


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Welcome A.G.  Teddy looks so sweet. 

We have two Havs, Ricky at 8.5 months, the other, Sammy, is 8 months old. Sammy seems to have a bit of a turn in his front feet, but for now we can't see anything indicating a huge problem. I haven't seen any Hav with Teddy's condition, but there are many of them that do have this. I can't really help you, but wanted to say 'hi' and welcome you to the forum.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Teddy is very cute  I love his light coat too!! Funny thing is, is that Oreo sits down just like Teddy, his feet always splay to the side


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

My three all sit like that too - we call it the Pooh Bear sit.


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## boo2352 (Dec 18, 2006)

MacGyver just had surgery for this last week -- his condition was pretty bad, and the elbow joint was being affected. I'm glad you don't need surgery. The surgery itself went fine, but the rehab is long. He's supposed to be crated except when outside "doing his business" for the next 5 weeks. (We've interpreted "crate" to mean "lap.") Then we have exercises and controlled walks for another 5 weeks. It's going to be a long spring! MacGyver's being very good, but he dearly wants to play fetch and doesn't understand why he can't.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

No experience but some knowledge. It seems like most of them get along fine. There is a large variation in amounts of bowing in dogs considered to have CD. Some never experience any ill effects from it. TAMU is currently working on a grading system but nothing out yet.

If you look at some of the pictures of the dogs that Dorothy Goodale started with you will see some bowed legs. This doesn't mean that there is no CD behind Havanese coming out of Europe. Dogs went from here to Sweden and different places on their way where they are coming from now. A group even went to Hungary looking for DNA different than the Goodale dogs lines and didn't find any. Another group went to Cuba and got some DNA but I haven't heard any results from that yet.

A few years ago it was estimated that 1/3 of all Havanese had CD based on: a survey, what judges who knew the difference said, and people like Pam and Diane have said(who have probably had their hands on more Havanese than anyone else(and know what they are looking at). 

Most people simply didn't and don't know the difference. One of the first Havanese to be put up in one of the TV shows after we joined the AKC was a CD dog-the judge said he was the only one in the ring with "short legs" which the short standard from AKC called for at that time. 

During the Havanese 100 Study, owners of the dogs in the study were asked to take soaped pictures of their dogs with the hair plastered down with wet soap. Among other things, the front legs were to be compared. This was when a lot of Havanese people first started "soaping" dogs. Margie wrote a good article in the current issue of the Hotline on how to take soaped pictures. I took the 2 pictures in the Hotline with the front leg views while Pam stacked the dogs. We do that with all our dogs and puppies.

Most responsible breeders have pulled the dogs with bowed legs from their breeding program. I don't believe anyone on the HCA recommended breeder list is breeding CD dogs now. At least I hope not.

There is a synopsis of the Heart Study also in the current Hotline for those that haven't kept up with it and are interested in the part that CD plays. 

But CD is back there in just about every pedigree there is and the mode of inheritance has not been determined. Two straight legged dogs can be bred and produce a CD dog.

One of the reasons we only will ever breed a female that goes back tail-female to our Twinkle is that none of those females have ever produced a single bowed leg. But we have only bred to a couple of outside males. One of our males, who now also all go back tail-female to Twinkle, did produce one bowed leg but that was out of an outside female, that I will not name, whose line has had some problems-so it's not something that can be "fixed" as might be claimed by a stud owner. 

There is no sure answer to only breeding correct dogs yet. Breeders just have to do the best they can which involves a lot more than just putting two dogs together. Unfortunately, as much health testing as is done by the best breeders there is no final answer even with all the time, money, and effort being put into it.


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## agilitygrandma (Apr 3, 2007)

Thank so much for welcoming me to this forum. This is great!!! I never see any other Havanese dogs and I love the opportunity to exchange information with all of you! It’s so cute that your dogs sit like Teddy does, and funny that it’s the “Pooh Bear” sit – Teddy’s registered name is Kathy’s Teddy Bear, because he looks so much like a Teddy Bear! Your dogs are all really adorable!!

The specialist who examined Teddy Monday said that he also has a “click” in one of his elbows. It is not stable, and will have to be watched. I think that is what is called the luxating patella, is that right? It's not causing him any problems at this time. 

Good luck to MacGyver in his recovery from surgery! Teddy has been recovering from a fall off a bed, that aggravated his elbow problem, so I can identify with the recuperation. These active little dogs don't like to be unable to play!

Kathy


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## MaddiesMom (Apr 1, 2007)

Hi agilitygrandma! Your Teddy is so cute! I was going to name my dog "Teddy" if I had a male, since the Hav puppies look so much like little teddy bears!  

My previous Havanese had patella luxation in both knees. I think it was pretty bad in one leg, as the vet could pop it in and out of place easily. Ironically, it rarely seemed to bother her. She could run like the wind, but I wouldn't allow her to jump. I had thought of surgery, but under advice of the vet, held off until she showed signs of it causing her a problem. Sadly, she died at age 8 from liver disease. I think the patella luxation would have caused her problems when she got older, but fortunately, it would only bother her maybe once a year and she would pop it back herself by extending her hind leg.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

I am told that the luxating patella is when the "knee cap" is not attached, and slides around. Lexi does not lay down on command, as it seems to bother her legs . 
She also lifts her rear leg up and out when peeing. You would think that that too bothers her, but she runs faster & can jump higher & dances for 30 seconds to a miunute on her hind legs. My feeling on this is that if she is lame, we treat it, otherwise - I dont care that she wont lay down & she seems happy. If they dont suggest treatment, I wouldnt do anything. 
These are the greatest arent they?? 
Laurie


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Laurief
I don't think the pee sqaut is because of Lexi's legs. Shelby pees the same way and her legs are fine (at least the vet said they are OK). I think it is just a quirk in the way they squat. It's so funny to watch. Maybe Lexi and Shelby are related  
PS - my daughter's Dachshund is named Lexi.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Maybe - I am not sure what it is from but it is very different from how the others squat. I always thought it might have something to do with it. The lay down part is strange as she does NOT want to do it, almost as if she cant. She never lays down in the position even when she is relaxing. Although she literally can stand on her hind legs for up to a minute 
Go figure, even if that is why she squats like that, it doesnt matter to me - just as long as she goes!


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## franny (Apr 24, 2011)

*Our Teddy Recently Diagnosed As Well*



agilitygrandma said:


> Teddy is three years old and has recently been diagnosed with chondrodysplasia. He has dysplasia of his elbow, and the leg bone is very curved. One leg is more severely affected than the other one, although the other leg does have this to a lesser degree. I understand now that this is rather common in Havanese dogs. The specialist that we were referred to and saw yesterday said that Teddy's is moderate and that surgery isn't necessary at this time, and may never be. Does anyone have any experience with this?


We had our 10 month old Havanese in last night and were referred out to an orthopedist. Trouble is that those who have any experience with CD are far and few between, even in the NYC area. If anyone knows of a vet or ortho who has knowledge of CD we would love to know.

Ironically, we have called the breeder several times this week, without disclosing the reason for our call, and she has yet to respond. Sad that she has two litters right now and I wonder how many of the those adorable pups will develop CD.


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## agilitygrandma (Apr 3, 2007)

Teddy is now 7 1/2 and his legs are VERY crooked, one still more than the other! The good news is that he still runs and plays, although a bit less than before, and his crooked legs don't seem to bother him all that much! I wish he could tell me if he's in pain, but he rarely limps, so I assume that he's not! If he does limp, I put him on Deramax or Rimadyl and give him crate rest until he is over it! It's probably been a year since he's had to have either. He hasn't shown any of the other symptoms that are associated with CD! His breeder didn't want to talk to me about it either, said that his parents didn't pass it on to him, although she did admit that someone had told her she couldn't show his mother because of her crooked legs! And yes, Teddy's mom had several other litters after his! I am very interested in what your orthopedist says and would appreciate it if you could please share any information that you receive!


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## franny (Apr 24, 2011)

*chrondrodysplasia*

Thanks for the feedback. I hope its not the name since my pup is Teddy also. He has both legs pretty bad but one worse than the other, foot goes out on a right angle. I have done research but not gotten alot of information. At the beginning I felt like it was a death sentence but the more I hear the better I feel and your comments that he is 7 and doing well is so encouraging. We probably take it worse then they do. I know he is not in any pain since the vet felt his leg and pressed it all different areas and no reaction. He also loves to play ball and runs and runs I am just scared that that could hurt him.

From what I have read the genes come from both the mother and the father so I have to question how a breeder would not know this is in their line. I still have not spoken to her so assuming she is on vacation and not avoiding me. You are always told to never buy from a pet store and I totally agree but to buy from a breeder you hope that they have done all the right things. I would expect that she would want to help me and possibly give me back money that I spent on a healthy pup. I don't know how this will affect him in the future and what vet bills I will have. My vet referred me to an orthopedist but my husband and I decided not to do anything at this time since he is not suffering and the operation seems pretty severe.

Thanks for all the help this forum provides to think I initially got on here for how to train him for bathroom issues and now I would give anything if that was all I had to get from this forum.


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## agilitygrandma (Apr 3, 2007)

Awwww that your pup is Teddy too! My Teddy's right leg goes out at a right angle too; you can even see it in the picture I posted 4 years ago. Teddy has never hurt his leg running or playing, but he did fall off a bed once and hurt his elbow! I now have stairs for him to get up on and off the bed - yep, he's spoiled but I don't want him to fall off and get hurt like that again! According to the orthopedist we saw, running shouldn't hurt his leg, but you should be careful about letting him jump from any height; the impact would be more likely to hurt the leg as he lands. Teddy was the first dog we've bought from a breeder in almost 40 years of having dogs, and he's also the first pup who has ever had health issues of any kind! I will be very surprised if your breeder will help you or give you any money back! If you had a one year guarantee on him, since he's not yet a year old, you could get your money back but would probably have to return the pup! If your Teddy is as sweet and loving as my Teddy, I know you could never do that! He is the sweetest pup I've ever seen and such a joy!!! Let me know what your breeder says when you talk to her! My breeder was in Lewiston, NY; I hope you didn't have the same one.

PS; Havanese pups aren't always easy to potty train! Be patient, it will happen!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

While good breeders are doing their best to breed CD out of the breed, the CD genes are not that far back in most oedigrees, just because it used to be SO prevalent in the breed. Sometimes even very good breeders, doing their very best to avoid it, and only breeding clean-legged dogs still produce a CD pup. 

There is another person on the forum who bought a puppy from two parents bred by one of the top, very well respected, breeders here in N.E. The puppy ended up with CD. (he's doing very well, BTW). I'll let that person introduce herselfif she chooses to.

As far as the other conditions that CAN go along with CD, just because there may be a slightly higher incidence of these problems in CD dogs doesn't mean that all or even most of them will have these problems. It's sort of like if you have family members with a history of heart disease, you are at higher risk. It doesn't mean that you will definitely GET heart disease, but you have a higher predisposition than the reast of the population. Knowing that can mean that you watch things more carefully, so that you are aware of problems and treat them promptly.


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## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

I am sorry that you are going through this with your babies. I just want to point out one thing about buying a puppy from a breeder verses a petstore. Petstore dogs all come from Puppy Mills. To me, it isn't just about the health of a puppy you get from a petstore, but about the conditions which you are then supporting. It isn't the puppy that will necessarily have problems, but think about the conditions that it's parents are living in that by buying from a petstore, you would encourage. I hope that your breeder responds. Although many breeders have wording in their contract that the dogs needs to be returned, etc, many will still stand by their dogs. They may not be willing to return your money unless you incur medical bills due to this problem, but they may be willing to work with you. I feel very confident that my breeder would help me and support me through anything that my dogs would need. I hope that you can find a breeder like that in the future. Unfortunately, not all breeders are good breeders.


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## StarrLhasa (Jun 6, 2010)

Hi, Franny:

I am glad to hear that you are feeling better about Teddy. I went through the same sense of relief with Buster. It has been difficult to keep him from jumping, but since we do not allow the dogs on the sofa or our bed, at least he's not jumping down from there.

Let us know how things go with Teddy. I am an optimist [most of the time], so I believe he is going to be OK.


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## agilitygrandma (Apr 3, 2007)

I'm sure that most of the Havanese breeders are reputable and are trying to get rid of CD, and that despite their best efforts, it still does crop up sometimes. The woman who bred my Teddy didn't happen to be one of them although she did keep the puppies in her kitchen and love them very much. She actually denied any knowledge of CD; it seems like someone breeding Havanese puppies should have at least heard of it! It was my first time buying a purebred dog, after rescuing MANY pups over a lot of years, and I should have done more investigating, rather than just assuming all breeders are legitimate! Teddy was over a year old before his CD became obvious and the breeder wasn't the least bit interested in even talking about it! And she continued to breed Teddy's mother, at least one more time that I know of! The good news is that Teddy is an awesome pup, he's doing really well, I love him to pieces, and I wouldn't trade him for anything! So far he hasn't had a lot of vet bills because of the CD, although of course it has cost us some money over the years! He will be 8 in December and I am always afraid of what the future is going to bring with Teddy and his CD. Does anyone have any older pups that have it, and how are they doing?


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## ItsMare (May 3, 2008)

Dear Franny, 
I have read through all the posts on this. I find it a shame that immediately you turn on your breeded and make comments about her pups that are now for sale. You have to understand as a quality breeder there is much to know and much that will come in our years of providing happy healthy puppies. 
Some years ago, I did not know what CD was. I had never produced a CD puppy. Although it is prevalant to the breed, it is also with alot of gene ressive traits that can cause such a thing. I had someone suspect based on thier vet that I had produced a cd puppy. After 3 orthopedic opinions .. it was determined that the puppy had a self induced injury to the growth plate in his leg. It show he typical signs of CD but was proven that it was injury induced. 
My question to you is.. why do you incinuate your breeder as bad because he/she has other pups for adoption and why would you consider he/she breeding cd pups???. Why do you incinuate a bad breeder because they did not return your calls when there was no emergency? You said you left messages with no content of the reason you were calling. We as breeders may be off to a AKC show or in a rare occasion on vacation. 
You have stated your Teddy is in no pain. You also stated that your vet did the diagnosis... I think imo that you need to bring him to a specialist.. that will x-ray and determine if this is a problem that will affect his life... it clearly is not now as you have stated you wont take him to a specialist. 
Do you have pictures of Teddy where he is soaped up and standing up straight.. there may be some folks that can tell you based on that if you need to go to a specialist or not. There are some just stances that a havanese does that will look easty or westy.. doesnt mean they have cd. 
How you gather that each parent has to have the recessive gene.. that is not proven. I have to wonder how the internet makes a person an expert based on an article. 
You have stated that there is no pain when the vet tried to induce pain. He has never shown it to you.. can you show a few pictures and see if it warrents the baby going to a specialist? I know if i go my doctor and the doctor suspects something.. then refers me to a specialist.. then I go. I dont do it as a matter of course. But from what your stating.. you need a specialist. Why would you not go as you stated??????????????
If your bringing in pictures.. be sure you hold him on all fours.. have the legs wet and soaped and facing forward.


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## ItsMare (May 3, 2008)

Also, you are against puppy mills aka puppy stores. How did you find your breeder.. you must of had some level of trust. 
Excuse me for my thoughts today.. but so much I have been hearing about things where the adoptive family really has no clue what they are talking about. 

Take care and God Bless... and be thankful your dog is not in pain


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

ItsMare said:


> Also, you are against puppy mills aka puppy stores. How did you find your breeder.. you must of had some level of trust.
> Excuse me for my thoughts today.. but so much I have been hearing about things where the adoptive family really has no clue what they are talking about.
> 
> Take care and God Bless... and be thankful your dog is not in pain


 You are sounding very rude. Did you notice this is a old topic started in 2007. I don't understand why you are getting on Teddies mom's case. Vets do know a lot about CD and most would refer to a specialist because surgery is always a option. But why are you being such a jerk to teddies mom.? Breeders should take responsibility when confronted with puppy's from their litters developing CD. I don't understand why you are sounding so angry.


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## ItsMare (May 3, 2008)

Dear Suzi, 
My intention was not to sound rude yet to help educate and protect the rights of responsible breeders. As a breeder their are far to many times that there is not a proper diagnosis on a situation. I do believe in our doggy specialists. They have trained for specific purposes. I do not claim that our vets do not know about CD but the specialist is the one in order to view xrays and determine the ultimate specific situation. 
This forum is not for the puppy mills of America, as I've followed it over the years what I see is its intented for loving havanese owners, show homes and breeders alike. I also note that this forum does not tolerate breeder bashing so to speak. In what I read there was negativity towards the breeder when the owner had not even spoken to the breeder yet. There was also incinuation of other CD puppies as she had pups for sale. I do not know or care who the breeder is, yet what I care about is the uneducated approach that is being taken. My opinion was to get the puppy seen by a specialist and get a diagnosis. Note in my original post a puppy I produced actually had an injured growth platlet which was was only determined by specialists. This is not a hereditary issue. My family that had the issue I worked with all the way to determine the situation as they did not come attack me yet we were both concerned if it could of come as recessive traits. We determined what the situation was by using specialists. If Teddy's parents are in contract with the breeder I assume the breeder will work within the contract or possibly more. I am sorry if i offended anyone, this was not my intention. Also, I did not pull a post from years ago as the post was made on 8/11/2011.


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## franny (Apr 24, 2011)

I really don't understand the reaction I am getting. I lost a dog to cancer at 5 years old and now I have a puppy that I bought with a health guarantee and is 10 months old and has crooked legs and paws going at right angles.. I read on lots of havanese pages what can become of a dog like this. Why would I not be mad and upset. Are you people dog lovers or breeders? I love my dog and don't want to subject him to any kind of surgery unless absolutely necessary and it doesn't seem like that is all that can go wrong. From what I have read there can be other issues as well. This is my first havanese and I am doing all the research I can to make sure my dog stays okay. My breeder when I spoke to her was not sympathetic and became defensive that is not what I expected. I wanted advice and knowledge and that is not what I got. I don't expect to get nasty comments from this forum but help and constructive advice not questioning everything I am doing or should be doing. If you don't have anything helpful please don't respond.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

ItsMare said:


> Dear Suzi,
> My intention was not to sound rude yet to help educate and protect the rights of responsible breeders. As a breeder their are far to many times that there is not a proper diagnosis on a situation. I do believe in our doggy specialists. They have trained for specific purposes. I do not claim that our vets do not know about CD but the specialist is the one in order to view xrays and determine the ultimate specific situation.
> This forum is not for the puppy mills of America, as I've followed it over the years what I see is its intented for loving havanese owners, show homes and breeders alike. I also note that this forum does not tolerate breeder bashing so to speak. In what I read there was negativity towards the breeder when the owner had not even spoken to the breeder yet. There was also incinuation of other CD puppies as she had pups for sale. I do not know or care who the breeder is, yet what I care about is the uneducated approach that is being taken. My opinion was to get the puppy seen by a specialist and get a diagnosis. Note in my original post a puppy I produced actually had an injured growth platlet which was was only determined by specialists. This is not a hereditary issue. My family that had the issue I worked with all the way to determine the situation as they did not come attack me yet we were both concerned if it could of come as recessive traits. We determined what the situation was by using specialists. If Teddy's parents are in contract with the breeder I assume the breeder will work within the contract or possibly more. I am sorry if i offended anyone, this was not my intention. Also, I did not pull a post from years ago as the post was made on 8/11/2011.


 The orthopedic doctors don't come cheep. our Havanese came down lame and we went first to the emergency dog hospital. Took x yays They referred us to our vet who took better x rays our vet referred us to the specialist. $1,000 dollors latter the prognosis was a genetic disorder. The problem is in her elbow. Her bone never attached. The specialist said it happened when she was about 5 weeks. By the time we had the third doctors visit she was no longer in pain. We discussed the options and because she wasn't in pain we were recommended to wait. The specialist had only had one other dog in his long currier with this type of disorder. I don't even think it has a name. He did state it was a genetic disorder. 
Maddie had injured herself while climbing over her x pin. She is a very active dog loves running and jumping. If she hadn't hurt herself we probably would have never known about her elbow problem. At least not before the year that our breeder gave as a health guarantee. Now we have spent a thousand dollars to really just find out she may have problems later in life. We went home with medication to use if needed. The orthopedic surgeon said we could amputate her leg or fuse it somehow. But said why do that if its not bothering her. He said it may never bother her. 
I too tried to contact our breeder finally was able to just get a email he wanted a second opinion but wasn't willing to pay for it. The $500.00 our contract would give towards medical bills was hardly enough to bring them to court. I think Teddies mom is doing the right thing why spend more money to be told if it bothers him latter then we can discuses options. 
I have no idea why genetic flaws happen. I have wanted to become a small breeder. I'm learning so much and from reading so many stories about CD and other problems that can happen I am really thinking twice about the responsibility. The biggest reason is I would have paid for the $1,000 vet bill if I had sold a puppy who ended up like Maddie. I would also stop breeding that bitch. I'm not sure I am going to take that kind of gamble or not. It takes two or more years to get the bitch ready to breed responsibly and their really is no guarantee a puppy will come out perfect. 
I think Breeders that don't return phone calls and act nasty towards their customers when a problems happen are Breeders who should not be breeders! And probably have had it happen to them more than once.


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## franny (Apr 24, 2011)

*CD*

Thanks for some of the more positive reactions to this. I wasn't bashing my breeder until she get nasty and defensive. When I figure out how to post a picture I will put Teddy on here. My vet said there is definite deformity and should be looked at but up to us if not in pain at this time. My daughter is waiting for a date for back surgery so I need to prioritize and Teddy is not in discomfort now. My breeder was defensive and nasty and told me he needs his nails clipped and should be groomed and sees nothing else. My vet clipped his nails the week before when I took him for the visit and he was groomed two weeks prior and that is how I noticed how his legs bowed greatly. I was looking for support and direction and got neither. I also asked her being he was less than a year that I can use the money I paid for him towards vet bills. Just to find out the extent of this will be upwards of 400 and I paid 1400 for him. I am not poor but not rich and just looking for my health guarantee to be honored. Oh and she also said do the surgery and then AFTER the surgery she will review it. Before I put him through extensive surgery I probably will do what Preston has done and put him in a stroller. I am more concerned that nothing else happens because of this. She said I can give him back, who could give back a puppy at 10 months and I am sure she knows that as well. Trust me this is not at all what I had hoped for when I bought my little guy. I would do anything for him to be normal with straight legs and paws. I have better things to do in my life than bash breeders.


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