# Can you punish your puppy and still train well?



## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

I have a 15 week old Havanese girl who was full of spunk when I purchased her and in the week I've had her, she's become even more spunky, playful and mischievous. Most of her antics are adorable, but not all.

I have her in a crate at night and in a crate when I'm not home. When I am home, she is limited to two rooms (I spend a fair amount of time in these rooms), and she has a pad in both rooms. I would say her "success" rate in using the pads (except for excitement peeing) is about 70%.

But in the last few days she has taken to grabbing the pad from one corner and running through the house with the pad flying in the air as if it were a kite. Of course this does succeed in getting my attention - which may be part, if not all, of her intention. I've tried weighing the pad down but no matter what I put on one edge, she gets it loose, or pulls part of it.

Needless to say, this is getting not so cute and is also making a mess of the house and of her training. I have yelled, I have told her no, I have given her the cold shoulder, nothing seems to stop it.

Is there a way to "punish" her? Could I put her in her crate after one of these episodes where she has done this two or three times in succession? I'm wondering if I could crate her for 5 or 10 minutes and it could act as punishment without having a negative effect on her comfort with her crate. Or is there another way to really lay down some kind of law?

BTW, I've not had a dog in about 35 years, so reallyl, I'm new at this and not terribly knowledgeable.

Thanks for any and all suggestions.

Louise


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

Louise,
You can buy a holder for the pee pads, it holds them in so they can't travel with them. I would hate to punish them for any kind of pee pad contact for fear they would get the wrong message and stop using them.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

I agree with Lynn. Kubrick went through a period when he tried to do the same thing with the pee pad, and I believe it was around the same age. I just bought a holder for it.

Also, 2 rooms might be too much space for her if you can't watch her 100% of the time. Can you see her at all times in those 2 rooms or are there corners she can hide in? If this is the case, I would limit her space further and even perhaps attach her to you with a 6' leash so you can catch her in the act. Kubrick, luckily, was pretty quick to potty train, but a lot of Havs take some time and 15 weeks is still very young.

Good luck!


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## karlabythec (Nov 9, 2008)

I have my wee wee pads set up in the laundry room....I take her in there every hour, shut the door, and let her do her business then she comes back in. I always leave that door cracked open and she is starting to go in there on her own to do her business. It is a lot of work, and I am the one trained to put her in there OFTEN...but if you can set them up in a room where it is "okay" to go potty and she doesn't have time to play with them, that may work...it is working here. 

I have a noise I make, Ah Ah Ah...and she stops whatever she is doing immediately. She knows that is the "no" around here...I never yell, but for some reason she doesn't like my tone when I make that sound. LOL


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

I had read quite a bit on reacting to behavior and dogs. I read the Hav's love to tear up paper. Do not run after your Hav (they just think you are playing with them) . 

Break his attention to see if you can show him a toy he can play with (a squeaker toy or go after a ball), praise, praise, praise, while the pup is playing with the toy. 

You should never call your dog to you if it is going to result in something bad happening to the dog (they won't want to come to you anymore out of fear).

Remember exercise, exercise, exercise so you can tire your pup out, so he stay out of trouble and he sleeps most of the time when you are gone or he is being crated.


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## Renee (Mar 27, 2008)

Louise,
I can't help but laugh when I read your post about your puppy turning the pee pad into a kite. I can so see Miley doing that! It's always funnier when it's someone else's "kid" doing it. I'm by no means a pro, but I would tell her no, and try and distract her with a toy. You might get a pee pad holder. We have one, and it works great. We got ours at PetSmart. I'm sure she'll grow out of it if you're consistent with her. Just remember "and this too shall pass"....


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## karlabythec (Nov 9, 2008)

You know, Gracie wouldn't use the pee pads if they were in the holder???? LOL She is a nut!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Louise, I came home a few times to my boys covered in fine peepad fluff. It looked like they had a pillow fight. First time was cute...after that not so much. I think you can say NO (or better yet, start teaching her "Leave it") and then replace it with an acceptable toy to be made into a kite...LOL. I too would stay away from crating her for anything to do with a pee pad. I also would be very sure to continue to praise praise praise for her correct use of the pad. But before you train her out of this habit...can you get some pictures?


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## Renee (Mar 27, 2008)

Yes...Let her be naughty ONE more time so you can snap a picture! We love naughty puppy pictures....


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## EMarie (Apr 11, 2007)

Ok, Pardon me for being so forward but what is wrong with teaching her to go outside? I tried the whole pee pad thing and that is how we started but then I gave up b/c she didn't want to use them. She actually picked up on the outside thing really fast. She is not 100% but she is only 4 1/2 old but it is much easier than the pads were!!


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Yeah, I never used pee pads, either. I was afraid that my dogs would have a hard time learning to go outside if they had the *option* of going inside. Personal opinion.

However, I must say Tucker had to spend a long time attached to me by the leash before the light bulb came on in his little head about going outside, anyway. Would he have gotten it sooner if he had pee pads? I kind of doubt it. Or would he just have gone anywhere in the house, anyway? I don't know.

Sheri and Tucker


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

Thank you both for advice about the holder - I assume you mean the plastic thing you put the pad between? I have one of those and when I first got her I thought she couldn't climb up, but I'm sure she could now, so I will try it.

She seems reasonably well trained even when she has the run of the two rooms. When she takes the pad and uses it like a kite, it's because she wants EVEN MORE attention 

Louise


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

Thanks for your suggestions about distracting her - I never thought of that, although I did it with my child many years ago. In fact, the whole thing does get humorously ridiculous because she's got a kite and I'm running after her and frankly, she can run faster and turn corners, faster than I can.

Louise


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

I'm hoping to be able to have her go outside and inside on a pad because there are times when no one in the house will be able to walk her often enough, especially when she is still a puppy and needs to go frequently.

She just got her final shots a few days ago and I have taken her out. I am in the Northeast and it's pretty cold - 20s yesterday. She smells the ground, "should" have the idea, but hasn't done anything yet. I'm hoping when it gets warmer there will be more dogs around and she'll get the idea.

Louise


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

karlabythec said:


> You know, Gracie wouldn't use the pee pads if they were in the holder???? LOL She is a nut!


Shelby wouldn't either.

As for the "kite" flying, she does get your attention, so maybe she is just bored. You need to find a diversion and if that doesn't work, maybe she needs a smaller space to roam in.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

If you really can't get her to leave the pee pads alone, you can buy some of the rewashable pads instead of using disposable. The washable version are quite a bit heavier and the dogs aren't nearly as intrigued by playing with them and can't really shred them. They are expensive, but you can buy them reclaimed on eBay if you want to save money.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

as far as your question can you punish and still train well. Generally speaking punishment is not the best or most effective tool to use. Here is an article about the subject that explains why. The Use of Punishment

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Question: "Isn't it necessary to make the dog respect me, even fear me, if I want long-term reliability?"
Answer: "You will find that the more things your dog learns TO DO, the more he will trust and respect you, and the easier it will become to make him understand what he should not do. Furthermore, training with reinforcement creates a dog that is doing things because he WANTS to do them, he understands what the job is, and he is confident of a successful outcome. That's true reliability (Pryor, Getting 53).

"...punishment.. is by far the favorite technique of human society... Its use in criminal justice is controversial, not just on moral grounds, but because there are efficacy questions: recidivism is extremely high. A huge proportion of those punished with fines and jail terms go out and re-offend. In other words, it doesn't seem to work very well. We tend to view this as a problem with the species being trained, i.e. humans or "criminal types" rather than a problem with the technique itself, it.e. punishment. Our response is usually to escalate the punishment... We have never fully faced the question that the technique, punishment, may not be a very effective one in the first place... we [use] it because it has been done to us. We've been raised with punishment, and have been saturated with examples of it throughout our lives. Even most religions have strong punishment themes in their attempt to keep behavior in line. Yet in spite of this, we seem to keep sinning a fair amount..." (Donaldson 157).

"...even done correctly, its use is completely unjustified for the training of stylized behaviors like retrieving...

"..punishment in dog training... typically [has] to be used over and over... to have much impact on behavior. This is because most behavior is already strongly under the control of its reward history. If a certain behavior is occurring in the first place, it is, by definition, being reinforced somewhere, somehow. Failure to address this reinforcement dooms any other technique... We tend to think that if rewards install or bring behavior to life, then puishments disinstall or kill behavior. But this is a major fallacy. Punishment does not kill behavior. Punishment merely stuns behavior. It interrupts the flow temporarily by creating emotional upset. This effect is temporary" (Donaldson 158).

"To make punishment work... the punishment has to meet a lot of conditions...

1) "The punishment must be immediate.
2) "The punishment must be sufficiently aversive... never start small and get bigger; start big right off the bat.
3) "The punishment must follow each and every attempt at the behavior and be associated only with the behavior..." (Donaldson 159). 
Even if successful, punishment has several side effects which accompany it:

1) "A strong association with the punisher
2) "A global inhibition of behavior
3) "the possibility of pain elicited aggression" (Donaldson 161). 
"What helps drive this fascination with punishment, aside from our compulsive observational learning tendency [it was done to us], is that there are often two immediate gratifications for the punisher. One is release of anger and frustration... [the other is that] the temporary suppression you get with punishment works as a well-timed reinforcer for the punisher" (Donaldson 161).

Why is punishment so popular? ".. our punishment-oriented mentality... we do so love violence" (Donaldson 211).

References
Donaldson


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

Usually this is just a phase .. A look at me Mom ! I know the cuteness s wears thin over time but they are puppies such a short period of time and that is something we forget when they are puppies !! They want to have fun !!

Havanese seem to have certain behaviours - paper chewing and pee pee pad tearing seems to be one of them .
? What do you mean by punishing .. 
I agree a pee pee pad holder may help .. Also do not make a big deal out of it .. She may just think she invented a new game but all my little guys did the same thing .. not quite a kite though 
I said UH Uh and took it away from him - tried the holder ..
I am sorry but the visual you painted is just too funny and I would have a hard time keeping a straight face ..
B TS 
Then I used distraction lets do school meaning sit stay etc and giving him treats .. 
Good Luck - this too will pass ..
Remeber as Donna says she is a baby !! It is true !


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

just thought I would leave you with some more reading regarding the use of punishment. Dogs are very efficient in their behavior. If a behavior is inherently pleasurable (eating, playing, chasing, etc), or if doing a particular behavior gets something pleasurable for the dog (like food, attention, or social interaction), the dog will display that behavior more and more often. If a behavior is not pleasurable, if it does not work to obtain something pleasurable, or results in something unpleasant, the dog will use that behavior less and less. Whenever you interact with a dog, you’re constantly giving her feedback about what works to get the good stuff and what doesn’t work. If a dog jumps up and gets attention, even if the attention is that you push him, then he knows that jumping “works” -– that is, it gets him attention and social interaction. If a he accidentally bites you in play and you don’t end the game, then he learns that play biting “works” or at least is not a serious impropriety -– the fun continues. So you can see why it is very important to manipulate the consequences of your dog’s behavior to be sure he is getting the right messages from you. This is a big responsibility.

The good news is that we can easily use the way dogs learn to “sculpt” their behavior, by consistently rewarding the desirable behaviors we see and ignoring or interrupting the undesirable behaviors. Gradually, you will see your dog behaving more and more in desirable ways, and less and less in undesirable ways.

But what about, for example, dogs who jump all the time? Well, that’s just it: no dog ever jumps literally all the time. Even with a dog that jumps a lot, there’s a moment when she isn’t jumping, so reinforce that moment with attention and some food! If you don’t like what she’s doing, show her what you would like her to do and then reinforce the new behavior. 

Repetition and patience are key elements in dog training. There’s never a magic moment when the dog understands the meaning of our requests. Animals gradually become conditioned through lots of repetition that certain behaviors in certain situations will or will not “pay off.” 

We use these principles -– rewarding desirable behaviors and ignoring undesirable behavior or removing rewards when the animal behaves in an undesirable way -– in Open Paw training, and do not use physical punishment. Dogs make associations with you and with the situation every time you interact with them. Thus, an unfortunate side effect of using punishment to try to train animals is that, while they may learn to respond to cues, or to stop doing something you don’t like, they may also form negative associations to you, to the situation, the environment, to people in general, or to training. 

Furthermore, often you don’t get the result you wanted from trying to use punishment to train. Take for example a dog jumping on people. It’s not a desirable behavior to people, but in the dog-dog world this is usually an appeasing, friendly greeting gesture. If you use punishment to try to get the dog to stop jumping, you have to use a severe enough punishment the first time that it effectively outweighs the positive associations of the friendly greeting gesture. If the punishment is not severe enough, then, you are not effectively damping that behavior. You may even unintentionally be rewarding it. Furthermore, even if you succeed in punishing severely enough, some dogs may try to stop the punishment by offering an appeasement gesture rather than by stopping the undesirable behavior– so the result might be more rather than less jumping. 

So, using punishment to train is pretty inefficient, difficult to do correctly, and, in order to be effective, must be severe. A much more efficient, friendlier way to train is to teach the dog a desirable, incompatible behavior: ask yourself, “If this is ‘wrong,’ what is ‘right’? In the case above, you could train the dog to sit to greet people instead of jumping. 

Please keep in mind, physical punishment can jeopardize your relationship with your dog or cause her to become defensive or fearful. Surely that is not your goal. Besides, dogs aren’t trying to be “bad” when they do something you don’t approve of; they are just being dogs. It is unfair to punish a dog for being a dog. It is up to you, as the human with control of all of the resources, to sufficiently and benevolently teach your dog the rules of the house and to train him to meet your expectations. 

This article is taken from the Open Paw Shelter Manual Volunteer Training Section. If you'd like to learn more about dog learning check out Excel-erated Learning, by Pam Reid.


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## Redorr (Feb 2, 2008)

There are a few options to stop the running with the pads - Gridlock makes adhesive pads, you can get a frame style holder. Amazon is a good source for all of it. In my case, both these options became shredding targets for Lola. I got her Wizdog grate holder which she uses faithfully. Others have found their dogs don't like the grate underfoot and won't use it. 

Punishment doesn't really work with dogs, especially smart ones like Havs. Positive reinforcement will get you results. Praise, treats for using the pad (every time to start), and when she does pee off pad, make a loud noise - AK AK - and pick her up and put her on the pad. She'll get it eventually. (we hope!)


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

no to your question.

Why do you want to punish your puppy?????

Puppies respond well when they are doing something to please you , you get all happy and praise them.

When doing something that you might frown upon, you do the opposite: Put your hands on your hips, frown, and say "uh-uh", and maybe tap your toes.
If she isn't playing nice, she goes into her crate until she calms down. Normally within 2 minutes , then take her out and praise her good behavior.
Neither of these examples are punishment, only training.

Never punish a puppy.


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

When I said "punish", I meant putting her in her crate specifically because she has dragged the pad all over or, as I described before, used it more like a kite.

At this point she gets crated at bedtime (in my bedroom) and she gets crated when I am out of the house. These are the only circumstances.

Therefore, it seemed to me that if I am angry about the pad and make that clear, and then put her in her crate (I've done it a few times for about 5 minutes), that would be a punishment. 

Am I wrong that crating her for this behavior would be a punishment? My concern is that the crate would no longer be her nice safe haven.

Louise


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

louise said:


> Am I wrong that crating her for this behavior would be a punishment? My concern is that the crate would no longer be her nice safe haven.


In my opinion, punishment isn't going to get you ahead in this game. And, as you already are questioning, banishing her to crate and alienating her from you when you are disappointed in her is only going to make her anxious about the crate. The crate should be her haven, her choice to go rest in there (except when she needs to be put there for lack of supervision or for night-time sleeping).

Distraction and rewards for good behavior are the two things that are much more effective for training. (And limiting the ability for bad behavior.)

Dave posted a lot of good information up above from reputable canine trainers. I hope you find them helpful.


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

I do not know if this interests you but you can buy a fake square of artifical grass that you an use indoors and train dogs to go potty indoors . You just rinse it .. I have not used it but I know that some people have used them with sucess and no pee pee pads .
I think Sky MAll sells them .
I have seen them in catalogs .. 
Maybe someone can find a link or has first hand experience and is willing to share ..


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