# Asking Breeder for Soaped Pictures



## sweetlotus (Nov 26, 2008)

Is it okay to ask a breeder for soaped pictures of their dogs if I'm only looking for pet quality? Is it normal for a reputable breeder to refuse?


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

sweetlotus said:


> Is it okay to ask a breeder for soaped pictures of their dogs if I'm only looking for pet quality?


YES, YES, YES!! They should be more than willing to send the photos to you.


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## sweetlotus (Nov 26, 2008)

Ok, I didn't want to be offensive by asking a breeder who does all the health tests for it.


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## Alexa (Jun 17, 2007)

I agree...it's a very reasonable request. As we have just found out in "that other thread" it's always good to be extra cautious and a good breeder should have no issue at all with sending soaped pictures if it's part of their routine or not. 

Alexa


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

sweetlotus said:


> Ok, I didn't want to be offensive by asking a breeder who does all the health tests for it.


There is no test for bad conformation. There's health testing to HOPEFULLY give you a healthy puppy but even with health testing things we don't expect can happen. That said, look for that health testing. It's the best tool we have along with soaped pictures.


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## sweetlotus (Nov 26, 2008)

I asked a breeder for soaped pictures because of my concern for CD and she said that the only way to diagnose CD was through x-rays and if I was worried, to find a breeder who x-rayed their dogs' legs....


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

sweetlotus said:


> I asked a breeder for soaped pictures because of my concern for CD and she said that the only way to diagnose CD was through x-rays and if I was worried, to find a breeder who x-rayed their dogs' legs....


Maybe Alexa can find the thread she's talking about for you. Sorry, I don't know how and probably missed it.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I would. Any breeder should have soaped pictures of their dogs available if they don't have something to hide. You will hear a lot of beating around the bush and the conversation will quickly get switched to health testing, but that's a separate, important issue. It may also get switched to xrays. If the dogs legs are straight, you don't need xrays.

All anyone has to do it plaster the hair down with soap. Pick the dog up and set it down on the table and get a helper to snap the picture. "Drop down straight" is when the legs are not jockeyed with and they still look straight. You can't make bad legs look good with soaped pictures.

And a responsible breeder will have a money back guarantee against CD.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

You are absolutely within reason to ask for soaped photos. Some of us do it for all of our pups at 8 weeks of age, regardless of anyone asking for them. I do it for my own records & evaluations.


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## norac (Mar 19, 2009)

*soaped leg*

Should I be asking for soaped leg photos of sires and dams or of puppies (or all)?


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## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

sweetlotus said:


> I asked a breeder for soaped pictures because of my concern for CD and she said that the only way to diagnose CD was through x-rays and if I was worried, to find a breeder who x-rayed their dogs' legs....


I wonder if contacted the same breeder. She does ALL the recommended health testing on her dogs, but when I asked for Soaped pics, she said that crooked legs on pet havs shouldn't be an issue and if this was an issue for me, I should find another breeder. Time to...:bolt:


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## Alexa (Jun 17, 2007)

That's just crazy...she does all the recommended health testing (did she prove that or just say it?) and then doesn't want to go through the effort of taking 5 minutes to soap down the legs. Crooked legs on pets shouldn't be an issue? Hello?



Carefulove said:


> I wonder if contacted the same breeder. She does ALL the recommended health testing on her dogs, but when I asked for Soaped pics, she said that crooked legs on pet havs shouldn't be an issue and if this was an issue for me, I should find another breeder. Time to...:bolt:


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## mikeb (Mar 11, 2009)

I didn't ask for soaped pictures and have already paid a deposit on my puppy. I'm gonna ask her, if she says no I'm out of luck already sent $500.00. She seems like a good breeder though so I don't think it will be a problem. For some reason its hard for me to ask these kind of questions, I know it shouldn't be.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Alexa said:


> ... and then doesn't want to go through the effort of taking 5 minutes to soap down the legs.


Not to nitpick, but 5 minutes is a gross underestimation of time. To create a good setting for observation, soap up the dog and get a second person to cooperate with you (this is not a one-person job), then wash the dog and blow dry can easily take an hour.

Granted, I soap the whole body and compare angles, proportions, and planes all over the dog, but that is something that I choose to do in the evaluations of my dogs.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Havtahava said:


> You are absolutely within reason to ask for soaped photos. Some of us do it for all of our pups at 8 weeks of age, regardless of anyone asking for them. I do it for my own records & evaluations.


I keep soaps for my records too.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

mikeb said:


> I didn't ask for soaped pictures and have already paid a deposit on my puppy. I'm gonna ask her, if she says no I'm out of luck already sent $500.00. She seems like a good breeder though so I don't think it will be a problem. For some reason its hard for me to ask these kind of questions, I know it shouldn't be.


People need to stop being afraid of breeders. You have the right to interview them just as they do you. They want to know everything about you so you bet you have the right to ask any question that you have and you have a right to honesty.


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## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

mikeb said:


> I didn't ask for soaped pictures and have already paid a deposit on my puppy. I'm gonna ask her, if she says no I'm out of luck already sent $500.00. She seems like a good breeder though so I don't think it will be a problem. For some reason its hard for me to ask these kind of questions, I know it shouldn't be.


Mike, this breeder is also great. She has beautiful health tested dogs that come from even more beautiful health tested dogs (all on Offa). But the statemet did not sit well with me. I first asked for soaps of the puppy, not even the parent. She took 1 wk to reply, then tells me that crooked legs are not an issue and goes on to tell me a story of a Cotton that she met once with crooked legs, etc....I asked her yesterday for soaps of the parents and she hasn't reply yet. If you have nothing to hide, then why not send the pictures?
Like Jan said, she asked all the questions she needed to ask in order to feel comfortable with you, you have the right to do the same. This is not a pair of shoes you are buying, is a companion for the next 15-17 years.
I am a bit heartbroken cause I was planning to get a puppy from her (just born this week), but I don't think that will be happening now.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Mike, I'm very curious as to why you'd be out $500? Is the deposit non-refundable? I'm not telling you to back out because you don't have soaped pictures - that's entirely up to you and is not required if you don't need them - but I am curious as to why your breeder does non-refundable deposits at all? Neither of my dogs required a deposit, much less a non-refundable one. I've spoken to many breeders and, honestly, although I can see why a deposit is a good thing to have, I don't agree that it is something that should be non-refundable. What if the puppy doesn't grow up to have the personality you want/need? Not nit picking at you at all, I just don't agree with breeders that ask for deposits who aren't willing to give them back... maybe I'm just being silly, though.

Zury, I answered your question about receiving soaps from my breeder in Coco's thread but I don't think you saw it. Hitchcock came from Kimberly (Havtahava) and she was wonderful at providing soaps. Here's a link to Hitchcock's Flickr set where the soaped pictures can be seen (starts on the fourth row down):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157609527402086/


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

norac, sorry I missed your question! I would ask for soaped pictures of the parents first and the puppy at 8 weeks or so.


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## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

Lina, yes I saw your answer in the other thread and followed the link. I saw the pics. Obrigada!


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Oh, okay, I'm glad... just wanted to make sure you saw it! :biggrin1:

Oh, and de nada.


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## hedygs (May 23, 2007)

I also wonder why we as potential owners would be afraid to ask for soaped pictures. Worried you might insult the breeder? I love that good breeders offer soaped pictures without even asking. I know Kimberly does this.

Mike it concerns me that you have not asked for this. It seems lately, that we are hearing/reading/seeing more instances of Havs with issues with straight legs. 

While so many things can befall our beloved pets that are out of our control (like what happened to my sweet Domino) why not eliminate the possibility of a surprise when it comes to crooked legs?


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## sweetlotus (Nov 26, 2008)

Zury, I wouldn't be surprised if we were talking about the same breeder seeing that you're in CT, and I'm assuming you are contacting breeders in your area. Big Hint. However, if not, then it's sad that we were turned away by separate breeders b/c of our request for soaped pictures.

Her hav's were beautiful and I would have been excited to purchase from her. She said she took soaped pictures of dogs but it was only for other breeders to look at. However, since I was buying for pet, not show purposes, I didn't need soaps. I'm not saying it makes sense....


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## mikeb (Mar 11, 2009)

Well I sent an email to my breeder politely asking about soaped pictures and straight legs. Hopefully she will take it as intended. I am sure she is a very good breeder but I would feel better to get this out in the open, especially after what I have read in this forum about other experiences. It is more of a problem in havs than I had originally thought. Can't wait to get an email back.... Yikes!!:brick:


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

For pete's sake! You're spending in the neighborhood of $2000 for your puppy, why on earth should you not get what you ask for? In my opinion, you have the right, as the customer, to ask for and receive any information regarding your pup that you want! If there's any hesitation in providing what you ask for, I'd move on...


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Well, I consider myself to be a reputable breeder and I don't do soaped pictures. Not because I have anything to hide, but mostly because:
1. I don't have help to take pictures
2. I take horrible pictures when they are dry
3. I don't think most people even know what they are looking at 
4. A wet puppy will also looked roached, not fair to the puppy
5. Under 12 weeks a puppy isn't going to show signs of a bone deformity typically, it isn't until they are older that an issue can be detected.
6. 1 Puppy will grow at a different rate then another and might not look the best at the time a picture is taken
7. Growth plates don't close until a puppy is several months old and the growth plates closing prematurally is typically what causes the bones to be deformed.

If anyone wants to see the xrays of the parents, that is different. But taking pictures of wet puppies for people that don't know the breed, the standard, and orthopedic deformities, not something I do. Taking soaped pictures on puppies isn't all it is cracked up to be. I would rather the prospective buyer come to my home, meet me, see the puppies and go over the puppy themselves. I am an honest person and my integrity is important to me but I don't think not taking soaped pictures means you are a bad person or a horrible breeder. 

If a puppy buyer asked me to wet down the puppy for them to see for themselves in person, that I would do. 

So, I suppose based on what has been stated here I must be a horrible breeder and everyone should "move on" from getting a puppy from me.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Kathy, I think you are a great breeder, however, I do think that a puppy buyer has the right to ask for soaps and if they feel like it's a deal breaker for them to walk away from a breeder who will not provide them. For me, it wasn't a deal breaker, it was just nice that Kimberly did it. I wouldn't at all turn away from a breeder who did not provide soaps, but I respect and feel like it's the right of a buyer to have that be important to them and to demand it if they want it, just as it is your right to refuse.

I did want to say, though, that I think your reason number 3 is pretty weak as it's just as easy for you, as a breeder, to educate them as to what they're looking at to help the buyer understand the structure of the breed better. And it's also very easy to read Our Havanese (which has soaped pictures in them with explanations, if I'm not mistaken) and to get help from another breeder to understand soaped pictures a little better.

Also, I don't see why a soaped puppy would look "roached" at all. If someone is asking you for a soaped picture I'm sure they understand that the puppy isn't going to look cute as a bug in one. I still call Kubrick my wet rat when giving him a bath and he is definitely not a puppy anymore. Just because they're wet doesn't mean that somehow someone won't want the puppy anymore. And if they feel that way, well, that's just silly and honestly would you want someone like that buying one of your pups? Just a thought.

Again, I don't think you're a horrible breeder and I hope that I didn't come off as saying that any breeder that doesn't do soaps is horrible in my posts above. I think you're welcome to your own opinion as a breeder just as a buyer is welcome to hers/his.


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## mikeb (Mar 11, 2009)

My breeder does not do soaped pictures. Says her dogs are fine. Kinda started getting upset with the HSA (silk dog assoc) for what they were doing. I really believe her, she gives a 3 year guarantee and does all testing and got excellent scores. The parents are bread by 2 other very good well known breeders. I believe if someone was going to trick me they could just alter some photos. If she says they are straight, although I would feel a bit better with the pictures, I'm not gonna belabor it. I know some will disagree with me. But I already sent my deposit and I'm tired of looking for puppies and I do trust her. I will of course check everybody out when I go visit my puppy. Both parents and of course puppies will be there. Maybe I'll bring a soapy bucket with me lol.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Well as a Kathy puppy buyer who LOVES her dogs and her breeding program- I will chime in. I think what sets Kathy apart is as a puppy buyer, you have to go to her home and get your puppy and there you can go over all of her dogs in person and this was priceless. I am still learning a lot in conformation but I will say I am not good at stacking my own dog on the table to this day and that is dry. Dash gets happy and wags his butt, roaches himself, etc. and while we work on this, I honestly suck at it! I am sure if I soaped my dogs and stacked them, what you would see is not likely a real picture of my dog's conformation. In fact, I was talking to a forum member about what is straight and I just took a photo of both of my dogs in the kitchen sink not stacked to show what their front legs looked like.

However, I do have to say if you are going to purchase a puppy over the internet from someone you haven't met (well, first i don't think you should do this but a lot of pet people on the forum have and likely will) you should definitely ask for soaped photos of the parents and the puppy. I personally found I saw way more in person not just from the dogs on the table but from watching them move but I wanted a dog that could move so that was very important to me. But if you can't do this photos are at least something. While you probably won't really know if your dog has a good front or rear, unless you are experienced, I would say most people can tell if the legs are straight or not.


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

I will chime in here also. 
I consider myself to be a reputable and responsible breeder. I have bred 12 AKC champions so far, and do extensive health testing on my dogs and offer a 3 year guarantee on pups and am there for my puppies and buyers for life. 
I have never had a pet puppy buyer ask me for soaps on the puppy they want to purchase. I have had show breeders ask me for soaps and I can certainly understand the need for that because they are evaluating structure to see if the pup will fit in or bring in something they may want to add to their breeding program.
If a puppy buyer asked me to share a picture of a soaped puppy, how am I, as a responsible breeder doing the right thing by providing it, if they aren't sure what to look for? On the other hand, if a puppy buyer asks me for the health testing results of the parents and health tests done on the pup, that is certainly factual and reliable information that I proudly pass along to them. OFA Hips, Elbows, LCP, Cardiac, Yearly CERF, BAER and Patellas on both parents, and pups are BAER tested also. Now THAT is proof that parents are healthy, but sorry folks, soaps on an 8 week puppy isn't going to prove much except that the pup has straight legs at 8 weeks, and as far as I'm concerned, the health testing certificates far outweigh a soaped picture of a freezing pup. 
My puppy buyers also have to come to my home to get their pup, so they get to see the parents and go over them if they like. Wouldn't it be nice if we could add an OFA front legs test to our 7 other tests and be able to hand those over to the puppy buyer and say "parents have been tested and have passed CD testing - they are CD free"....again, as in any other test, that does not mean a puppy cannot or will not develop a health issue or a structural fault. I consider non-straight legs a structural fault - not a health issue. If the dog has elbow dysplasia, it is a health issue, and by-golly we have an OFA test for that by x-ray. If the dog has easty westy feet or a slightly curved leg, that is a structural fault, and this dog can live a very happy and healthy life as a pet, but should never be shown or bred. 
Just my two cents.
Arlene


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Arlene, I will repeat that if you think the buyer doesn't have enough information to understand a soaped picture, what's stopping you from educating them on it so that they can understand? Honestly, I would expect any breeder to be happy to explain things like that to me if I asked, which is why I don't think it's a bad thing or a stupid thing for a pet buyer to ask to see soaps. I will repeat, though, that as the breeder it's more than your right to refuse them. I'm not picking sides here, just trying to understand all sides, if that makes sense.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Lina said:


> Arlene, I will repeat that if you think the buyer doesn't have enough information to understand a soaped picture, what's stopping you from educating them on it so that they can understand? Honestly, I would expect any breeder to be happy to explain things like that to me if I asked, which is why I don't think it's a bad thing or a stupid thing for a pet buyer to ask to see soaps. I will repeat, though, that as the breeder it's more than your right to refuse them. I'm not picking sides here, just trying to understand all sides, if that makes sense.


Lina,
You are correct, the buyer can ask and the breeder can say no. What I am trying to say though is by saying "no" doesn't mean a breeder is bad, wrong, hiding, or otherwise as has been stated on this thread. I love educating people, but to make such bold statements about "any breeder should soap if they have nothing to hide..." (I am not saying you said this) is not a correct nor fair statement. As I stated before, I have no problem having someone come to my home to show them, but using pictures and trying to do it over the phone or via email isn't effective in my opinion.

Any person that has tried to take soaped pictures of a puppy will tell you it isn't easy. Most of the time it is the first time the puppy has been bathed and they are already stressed so trying to get them to stand properly is not easy and can take quite a bit of time.


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

Lina,
Truthfully all a soaped picture tells me if the legs give the _appearance_ to be straight. It depends on who does the soap, and if it is done correctly. To me, the only way to definitively say whether a dog has cd or not is by an xray evaluated by a veterinary specialist. 
Arlene


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

Boy is that right Kathy! They absolutely hate it, and personally it's torture for them. They are freezing their butts off. I will do them for a show prospect pup to evaluate lines and angles-it proves nothing other than that. A puppy at 8 weeks can have stick straight legs, and at 1 year be totally different. What matters are the parents' health testing, and if the breeder shares soaps or has buyers go over the parent's of the pups in person.


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## Lunastar (Feb 9, 2009)

I am amazed that I got so lucky with my girls. I knew nothing of soaped pictures.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Arlene, if that's true, then why is it okay for you to show soaped pictures for show prospects and not pet owners? I might not have gotten a puppy to show, but I'm still interested in structure and in understanding it better - which is what I liked about getting soaped pictures along with an explanation from Kimberly. I'm not saying that soaps are for CD only, I also think they're important to better understand structure and even though I'm just a mere pet owner, I'm still interested in what a correct structure should look like. And though I'm no expert, I do think that the soaped pictures of Hitchcock, along with Kimberly's explanations, helped me understand a lot better what the standard is, as well as to check for straight legs. I'm not naive enough to think it's the end all and be all of checking for CD, though.


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## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

I am late in joining this discussion. When I asked for soaped pictures, I received them for my pup and her parents and an explanation was provided to compare them. 

Is this torture to the puppy? Roxie still shakes when she knows her bath is coming. Are these related--I do not know!


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

Many do not and there are Havs that are 15 years or older that don't know what a soap is either


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

Hi Lina,
I have never had a pet puppy buyer ask me for soaps to evaluate and learn structure. If I did receive such a request I would happily do so. I just make it very clear that soaps are not an accurate way to determine or pronosticate whether a dog has or will have CD when it grows up.


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

Sometimes I wonder why they learn to dislike their baths... LOL. It is not an easy task to do this to a pup. With an adult it is a different ball game. A little pup is cold, slippery and never stands the correct way, because at 8 weeks they really haven't quite mastered the technique of "stacking". 



Cheryl said:


> I am late in joining this discussion. When I asked for soaped pictures, I received them for my pup and her parents and an explanation was provided to compare them.
> 
> Is this torture to the puppy? Roxie still shakes when she knows her bath is coming. Are these related--I do not know!


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Cheryl, no, I don't think they're related... Hitchcock had soaps done at 8 weeks and he wags his tail at bath time. Kubrick never had soaps done and he HATES bath time.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Arlene, personally I think your last answer is something that you should be writing to potential pet owners when they ask for soaped pictures (if they ever do). IMO, it's a much nicer answer and is less judgmental than saying that a puppy buyer just would not know what to look at and thus you're not required to provide a soaped picture to them... I think a lot of times breeders think (subconsciously or not) that they know a lot more than pet owners so they treat questions in a more brusque manner than necessary and that can come off as defensive in e-mails (such as the one that Zury said she received above).

I'm not at all saying that you have done this before, but as you and Kathy and all the other breeders here run a business, I believe it's important to realize what you sound like through an e-mail or a letter. Whatever your intent (which I'm sure was good), changing a word here or there can totally change your meaning and how people view you. I hope this doesn't come off as preachy... I'm just trying to get people (and myself) to see both sides of the issue. It's not only your breeding program, health testing and understanding of the Havanese structure that determines you as a good breeder to most people; it's the way you react to and answer questions, whether you find them stupid or not. Of course, you (a general you here - I'm talking about breeders in general) can take my advice or leave it. I'm no expert, just a pet owner.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Soaped pictures of puppies are not nearly as important as soaped pictures of the parents. Legs can bow up to any time until the growth plates close. 

We do take pictures of soaped pictures of puppies for records and if anyone wants to see them.

When we take soaped pictures, we just do it at bath time. We set a ringside table up behind where the person doing the washing is standing. There is a rolled up towel contrasting the dogs color so that the view of the back legs doesn't interfere with the view of the front legs.

Plaster the fur down on the legs with lots of soap. The person doing the washing turns around with the dog, sits it on the table, and the picturre is snapped. Only take s few minutes. It does help the comfort of the dog to have the room warm. This can be done with a portable heater. We have a built in heater in the dog room separate from the house heating system for just this purpose. 

I know one breeder who does it by herself with a remote control for the camera sitting on a tripod. Nikon sells a nice little remote for their cameras that costs $17.

If for some reason a breeder won't take soaped pictures or have someone else take pictures for them, the prospective buyer can always feel the legs of the dogs when they go for a visit. Anyone can easily feel the difference between bowed and straight legs.

By the way since we are talking guarantees, we offer a lifetime guarantee against any congenital health problem and a money back guarantee against CD as well as a lifetime buyback for any reason clause if the rest of the guarantee isn't good enough.


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## Jennifer Clevenger (Jun 26, 2008)

I post pictures of my dog's soap pictures on their pages on my website. It is that important. And just like Kimberly, I soap all of my puppies at eight weeks. Ryan, who is on this forum, wanted the soap pictures of his puppy so I e-mailed them to him. He bought a pet but needed that reassurance that when he got him home, he wouldn't find a surprise under that coat. I think it is wonderful that pet buyers are now educating themselves enough to know what to look for when looking for a great breeder! Kudos to all of you.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

So besides straight legs, what else can be told from soaped photos?


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Kathy said:


> Well, I consider myself to be a reputable breeder and I don't do soaped pictures. Not because I have anything to hide, but mostly because:
> 1. I don't have help to take pictures
> 2. I take horrible pictures when they are dry
> 3. I don't think most people even know what they are looking at
> ...


Except for me. I'd get one from you in a heartbeat.


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Kinda late here, but what I was trying to get across in my last post is that if you are asking for something from the breeder and not receiving even the courtesy of a reply, or your request is being "brushed aside", then it's time to move on.

Kathy, Arlene, Tom, Jennifer~ From your posts here, I know you would not treat one of your puppy buyers in such a rude way. In fact, from what I'm reading you do just the opposite, you politely educate your buyers. Thank you!!!

When it comes to soaped photos, I'm well aware of how easy it is to make something look like something it's not, in a digital photo. Would I trust one? Guess it would depend on who it's coming from


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

mikeb said:


> My breeder does not do soaped pictures. Says her dogs are fine. Kinda started getting upset with the HSA (silk dog assoc) for what they were doing. I really believe her, she gives a 3 year guarantee and does all testing and got excellent scores. The parents are bread by 2 other very good well known breeders. I believe if someone was going to trick me they could just alter some photos. If she says they are straight, although I would feel a bit better with the pictures, I'm not gonna belabor it. I know some will disagree with me. But I already sent my deposit and I'm tired of looking for puppies and I do trust her. I will of course check everybody out when I go visit my puppy. Both parents and of course puppies will be there. Maybe I'll bring a soapy bucket with me lol.


Mike,

I never asked for, or got soaped pictures of my boys. They both have straight legs and I knew their ancestry. I also trusted the breeder.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Since my soaps have been discussed, I need to clarify that I have not offered them to all my puppy homes nor have I been able to take them on every pup. It is a long process and a HUGE pain to do (and HOT because I get my house up to 90 orso degrees to do them). I usually only share them w/ a group of respected breeders that I choose to share info so I can get outside opinions on the overall structure of my dogs & pups.

Soaps, like temperament testing, are not the be all to end all. The are only one piece of the puzzle. More important than EITHER of these things is your relationship with your breeder and knowing s/he will stand behind the puppy & pay for medical problems & support you.


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

> Ryan, who is on this forum, wanted the soap pictures of his puppy so I e-mailed them to him. He bought a pet but needed that reassurance that when he got him home, he wouldn't find a surprise under that coat.


 And I want to state for the record, there may not be a surprise under the coat at the time you buy your pup, but that is no guarantee that the legs won't change as the pup grows up. So it is a picture in time-a snapshot at that particular moment in that pup's development.


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

:frusty:


> Soaped pictures of puppies are not nearly as important as soaped pictures of the parents. Legs can bow up to any time until the growth plates close.


Agreed. But soaped pictures of the parents are no guarantee that the parents don't have a problem under that coat.

Drumroll.....time for Letterman's top 10 reasons why x-rays are the precise tool for evaluating CD and not soaps.

The top 10 reasons why an xray is always better than soaps to evaluate CD....

10. Because if it's a health issue then we need xrays, if it's only a conformation issue we don't. 
9. Because I prefer OFA vets to grade my dogs' rads instead of your biased experts.
8. Because once the rads are evaluated the results are posted for all to see and compare to other breed CD ratings.
7. Because CD test results can be compared to other health testing results and put this Ockham shmockham syndrome baloney to bed once and for all.
6. Because responsible breeders don't want anything "apparent" about our Hav's health testing results - Just give us the facts ma'am just the facts.
5. Because my ortho vet specialist doesn't wanna give my dog a bath and laughs at the thought of doing so to evaluate CD in a dog.
4. Because AKC judges are qualified to determine if my Hav conforms to the standard, and the health specialists and OFA are qualified to evaluate my dog's health testing. 
3. Because like humans, Havanese bodies come in all cute little shapes and forms, and so do the little legs attached to those bodies.
2. Because all reputable and responsible HCA breeders are trying to breed better and healthier dogs and want to do it with reliable and true scientific data.

and ta-da...
1. Because OFA rads can't be photoshopped.


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

Lina, 
As I mentioned in an earlier post, the only puppy buyers that have ever asked for soaps, are show potential buyers.



> IMO, it's a much nicer answer and is less judgmental than saying that a puppy buyer just would not know what to look at and thus you're not required to provide a soaped picture to them


I never said this Lina. I said no one who is looking for a pet has ever asked for soaped pictures of the parents (although I do have them on my website for all to see). What they have asked for are the health test results of the parents, and kudos to them, as those are a better indicator of health in a dog than a soaped up picture. Soaps are for evaluating structure, not health.



> I think a lot of times breeders think (subconsciously or not) that they know a lot more than pet owners


Lina, I would certainly hope that a breeder knows a lot more about our breed than pet owners. We are here to set an example and educate. If a breeder doesn't know their stuff, they are in serious trouble.



> I'm not at all saying that you have done this before, but as you and Kathy and all the other breeders here run a business,


Wrong. This is not a business-not for me. This is a hobby I put my heart and soul and a lot of my paycheck from my daytime job into. I am a full-time computer programmer analyst and work a 40 hour work week. This is not a business and believe me I am in the red and not in the black with this. 
I put money into health testing, showing and caring for my dogs and my puppy buyers' dogs.

I have never had a problem communicating or relating with my puppy buyers. They and I get along marvelously and I am always there for them. I soap my pups and evaluate them for show potential. I look at structure, movement, and watch attitude and temperament. Pups need to be finished champions and pass all health tests before they are considered to be bred as adults. If a front goes off on them, they are spayed or neutered even if they have a CH title and have passed all their health tests.



> It's not only your breeding program, health testing and understanding of the Havanese structure that determines you as a good breeder to most people; it's the way you react to and answer questions, whether you find them stupid or not.


Because I have never engaged in this type of questioning about soaps (except from breeders looking for a show dog), this has neer been an issue. When people have asked about soaps I give them my honest opinion. They are used to evaluate structure and are a snapshot of that dog at that moment in time. Nothing more, nothing less.

Arlene


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

> It is a long process and a HUGE pain to do (and HOT because I get my house up to 90 orso degrees to do them). I usually only share them w/ a group of respected breeders that I choose to share info so I can get outside opinions on the overall structure of my dogs & pups.





> Soaps, like temperament testing, are not the be all to end all. The are only one piece of the puzzle. More important than EITHER of these things is your relationship with your breeder and knowing s/he will stand behind the puppy & pay for medical problems & support you


eace: AMEN!


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

> I also trusted the breeder


Now there's a concept! Good on you  Trust is very important between a puppy owner and breeder.
Arlene


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## sweetlotus (Nov 26, 2008)

I just wanted to say that I wasn't bashing the breeder or any breeder for not giving me soaps. I can understand that there are reputable breeders who don't do soaps for various reasons. I would have still been interested in purchasing from her even if she didn't provide soaps. However, she didn't even give me that opportunity and she coldly turned me away. IMO, that wasn't the appropriate reaction. She could have explained to me all the reasons you have stated above. 

I wanted to add that she said she had soaped pictures of her dogs but she didn't send them to pet buyers. I supposed she assumed that I would not know what I was looking at anyway.


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

This has been a very interesting thread and good to see both sides of the issues from reputable breeders. Lotus, it sounds like the issue for you now isn't so much whether the breeder did soap photos or not but how you were treated. That would be the issue for me also because if she's brushing you off instead of giving a rational, acceptable explanation (such as those provided by Arlene, Kathy, etc.) that would concern me for future interaction.


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

I can certainly understand that her reply wasn't truly the best approach. I am sorry that you were brushed off that way. An explanation would have been nice and would have reassured you that you were going to get a nice and healthy puppy also.
Arlene


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## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

I understand and you guys are right, in fact I emailed and said that soap of the pups was really not necessary and I was OK with that as it wouldn't really show anything. I did ask about the parents legs (if they were straight) and I am still waiting (since Thursday). I noticed she got annoyed when I asked, but what ticked me off is her statement of "crooked legs on a havanese pet shouldn't be an issue" and "I can't guarantee straight legs". I know a breeder can't guarantee that, but her negativity and her odd excuses from the get go is what worried me.
Also, I asked for a copy of the contract, and it is not very clear. She will only replace the dog (not the money) if the dog has a genetic disorder that requires the dog to be put down. A dog with CD doesn't necessarily needs to be put down, I think.
Kathy, NO I wouldn't think you are a bad breeder, in fact, I don't think she is a bad breeder either. She does the health testing and is a very nice lady!


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## Jennifer Clevenger (Jun 26, 2008)

ama0722 said:


> So besides straight legs, what else can be told from soaped photos?


It shows shoulder layback, length of neck, rear angles and the chest of the puppy. I like it to see if the legs are set underneath the body. It is a great tool to use when evaluating the structure of a litter to see if that breeding is worth repeating.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Jennifer Clevenger said:


> It shows shoulder layback, length of neck, rear angles and the chest of the puppy. I like it to see if the legs are set underneath the body. It is a great tool to use when evaluating the structure of a litter to see if that breeding is worth repeating.


Okay so you are saying doing your own soaps of your litter for you to compare? I am on maltese list and the way some Hav people use soaps for everything seems different than other coated breeds.

Would you trust soaped photos enough to buy an 8 week old puppy for your breeding program without seeing it and going over it yourself? Just from the very little I know about photography it is all relative- lengths, layback, angles etc can easily be manipulated without things like photoshop but with what angle a photo is taken. Let's just say we all look better in some photos than others


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

That's a tough question. I placed Rayo with Karen Pike in California. She saw pictures of him since he was just a little baked potato (that's what I call them when they aren't even walking yet). I kept her updated with photos and sent her soaped photos of him also. She had shots of his front, rear, and front half (to evaluate shoulder angles, etc) and whole body even though he was cold and roached a bit, she would still be able to evaluate length of ribcage compared to loin etc etc. 
She trusted me and I think trust is everything between two people who are doing a transaction. I told her how I felt about him and I truly saw potential in him and his movement was impressive. She and I knew all along that she would make her final decision when she came over to pick him up. I don't ship my pups, so people need to come here and see them in person. Photos did not do him justice, as she said when she saw him, he was nicer than any picture could have ever portrayed.  
She and I are great friends now and communicate weekly and are just thrilled with how well he has done. He is Ch Peluito's Mi Rayo De Sol now and an owner handled Group 2 winner Wahooo!


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## Jennifer Clevenger (Jun 26, 2008)

Arlene said it perfectly. Trust is number one. I look at soaps as a tool to use not the end all. When you have an eye for the structure of a dog, the soaps help verify what you are seeing. When I have a litter, there are always a couple of puppies who strike me. I watch them as they grow. The movement is very important because a dog who isn't built correctly won't have as nice of a gait as one who does. A show dog is born not created. Like Alana. I wanted a sable so bad and when I had a litter of all sables with the exception of Alana, I was thrilled. At about five weeks, she was the natural. Her conformation, movement and attitude said it all. So, I ended up with another black and white dog. LOL


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

LOL isn't that the truth  !! You and I sound very alike in how we watch our babies like hawks. I am so into movement and a dog that can at an early age gait beautifully and stop on all fours and self stack is a very balanced dog. Of course we watch for other things also, and the pup needs to grow up and get teeth in the right places, but so far so good, (knock on wood:biggrin1 this and soaps has worked very well 
Arlene


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