# Biggest Hav Ever!



## coco (Feb 26, 2011)

Hi all, have not been here in awhile. Husband and I dealing with health issues. But that's another story. Coco has always been big. But now the vet said politely "He's Full Figure" He's 1 yr and 4 months and weighs 27 lbs.
Everywhere we go the line is "He's so big!, some lap dog you got there and so on. He can't be a havnese, he has to be a mix. He's not but I get so tired of defending him. I used to home cook for him. Used Sabine for a diet, but since I became ill I switched him to Natures Valley Instinct Raw it's just easier for me. The bag says for and adult active dog in his weight range 6-9 medalions a day, each medalion 1oz. Well I quess I was giving him to much. Yes, he's always hungry and yes it's hard to resist that face but I know I have to cut down. He thinks everytime I eat, he eats! I'm now giving him 2 medalions in the morning with a tiny bit of Taste of the Wild Kibble. At night he gets 2 more and some table food. He's not crazy for dog treats, he'd rather eat grilled cheese or pasta, not getting that anymore. He's very active we go for short walks about 3 or 4 times a day (I'm retired). He also plays with the neighborhood dogs twice a week. When we go to the park he loves to swim and when he's wet he looks much thinner and I don't feel so bad. But you really have to press to feel ribs. If anyone thinks this is still to much food let me know. Thanks for listening.
Lucia and CoCo


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

Well......we just need to see pictures....to determine this.....


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## coco (Feb 26, 2011)

OK Will try to send some.


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## Blue_Persuasion (Jan 4, 2012)

Wow, 27 pounds? Would his picture fit on this page? ound:


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## coco (Feb 26, 2011)

Here you go!


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Meh - he's got a really big frame and could lose a little, but I from your description I was expecting something really chunky. There's a yorkie that come in my grooming salon and we call him the double-wide yorkie because he is literally the width of two of his normal-weight yorkies combined!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I think Coco is gorgeous. I have pretty big boy too. Cash topped out at almost 25lbs. Even though we didnt think we were overfeeding He is now down to 17.5-18 lbs and much happier. We had some allergy issues going on too, and even though we were already doing natures variety raw, we switched to their bison formula, and that is when Cash started losing weight. Whe we tried kibble with Cash even though it was a weight loss formula and we measured it he gained a pound in a week. He just couldn't handle the carbs. This may not be the answer for coco, but thought I would throw it out there. We feed Cash 2 medallions and 1 ounce of plain ground meat at each meal, with some pumpkin and green beans. 

How much does your vet think coco needs to lose? Use the weight he should be to 
figure out his caloric needs... And stick with that, including treats and table scraps. This was so much harder on us than on Cash... Well actually it was hard on him too... He loves to eat. Each medallion is 65 calories, so 4 medallions a day is only 260 calories... 6 would be 390 calories. I would want most of his calories coming from dog food (or homemade dog food) not table scraps...but if you do feed table scraps you need to calculate them. 

Things that helped us... Bravo frieze dried training treats.... Tiny little bits of 100% meat, low fat and calories. All dogs need is a taste. Portioning out their treats for the day by calories. Adding green beans to their meals. Share only tiny bits of meat and veggies from your meals. To satisfy him a marrow bone, with most of the marrow (pure fat) carved out. I get the butcher to slice them to about 2 inches thick. Then I scoop out the marrow and freeze them. 

Oh and my favorite fun fact is a bully stick is 29 calories an inch. a 6 inch bully stick is a meal for a small dog.
Good luck. Keep us posted.


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

Not counting this last Vet visit, how much did he weigh at last Visit?


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Wow! That is big a boy. What did the vet say? Is he big boned enough to carry it or do they say he should lose weight?


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

Not meaning to hurt your feelings, but he does look a bit chunky. With the short hair cut, you can tell he is overweight, so.............Momma, no more high calorie treats and get that exercise in. He will feel better and so will you. Keep us posted!


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

Please cut down his treats, to few or none.
Make his happiest part of the day exercise. 
Maybe even get someone to do extra walks with him if you and hubby are not able to .
Hope things get better. Coco is beautiful.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

coco said:


> Hi all, have not been here in awhile. Husband and I dealing with health issues. But that's another story. Coco has always been big. But now the vet said politely "He's Full Figure" He's 1 yr and 4 months and weighs 27 lbs.
> Everywhere we go the line is "He's so big!, some lap dog you got there and so on. He can't be a havnese, he has to be a mix. He's not but I get so tired of defending him. I used to home cook for him. Used Sabine for a diet, but since I became ill I switched him to Natures Valley Instinct Raw it's just easier for me. The bag says for and adult active dog in his weight range 6-9 medalions a day, each medalion 1oz. Well I quess I was giving him to much. Yes, he's always hungry and yes it's hard to resist that face but I know I have to cut down. He thinks everytime I eat, he eats! I'm now giving him 2 medalions in the morning with a tiny bit of Taste of the Wild Kibble. At night he gets 2 more and some table food. He's not crazy for dog treats, he'd rather eat grilled cheese or pasta, not getting that anymore. He's very active we go for short walks about 3 or 4 times a day (I'm retired). He also plays with the neighborhood dogs twice a week. When we go to the park he loves to swim and when he's wet he looks much thinner and I don't feel so bad. But you really have to press to feel ribs. If anyone thinks this is still to much food let me know. Thanks for listening.
> Lucia and CoCo


It will take time to see if his new diet is right for him. Every dog is different, not only in size, and activity level, but also in metabolism. I have to guess that Coco has a very large frame for a Havanese, or he's look like a basketball at 27 lbs! So while he may be overweight, it doesn't sound like he's morbidly obese.

Here is a great chart for determining whether your dog is at a good weight:

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/how-to-evaluate-your-dogs-weight.html

You want him somewhere between "ideal" and "thin". "Thin" is still healthy... and actually not a bad thing if the dog works hard. Anything above "ideal" stands the chance of shortening the dog's life and soundness. Obviously, with a coated dog, you need to wet him down to compare him to these pictures. Over time, you'll get to the point where you can feel with your hands what his body condition is.

Dog food manufacturers, in general, encourage feeding your dog more than optimal amounts simply because it sells more food. I have also been told that with raw food, you should not be feeding kibble at the same meal, as it is digested at a different rate. You may want to re-think the kibble in his breakfast and replace it with some vegetables. I know Kodi goes nuts for frozen green beans and broccoli. (he doesn't even care if they are defrosted first!)

If he likes kibble and you want to give him some, you could use this as treat food during the middle of the day. And you are right, grilled cheese and pasta are not a good part of a diet for a dog who needs to lose weight!:biggrin1: (they aren't "good food" for any dog, but if the dog is at normal weight, a teeny bite here and there won't hurt him)

As far as him being hungry all the time? That's a normal part of "dogness". Yes, there are some Havs that are picky eaters, but that certainly isn't across the board. There are more that are just like every other dog in the world... always looking for a hand-out. Dogs are omnivorous scavengers by nature, NOT (as some people believe) true carnivores. Scavengers are pre-programmed to want to eat all the time, and take advantage of any calories they come across. In our homes, however, where food is nutritious and plentiful, their constant appetite can cause their owners to over feed them. Just be strong and remember, "appetite" and "need for food" are two different, not wholely related things!:biggrin1:

The good thing is that Coco is young. Between a healthy diet and, if at all possible, increasing his activity, you'll have him thin, svelt and ready for a long, healthy life in no time!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

atsilvers27 said:


> Meh - he's got a really big frame and could lose a little, but I from your description I was expecting something really chunky. There's a yorkie that come in my grooming salon and we call him the double-wide yorkie because he is literally the width of two of his normal-weight yorkies combined!


Ha! The Yorkie sounds like what we call, in my family, a "footstool dog" (or cat... we have a friend with two overfed, overweight Maine *****, and they are "footstool cats"ound

I agree. Coco is a "chunky monkey, but certainly not morbidly obese. I'd still be taking the excess weight off if he were my dog, though... it's just healthier for him in the long run!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Missy said:


> I think Coco is gorgeous. I have pretty big boy too. Cash topped out at almost 25lbs. Even though we didnt think we were overfeeding He is now down to 17.5-18 lbs and much happier. We had some allergy issues going on too, and even though we were already doing natures variety raw, we switched to their bison formula, and that is when Cash started losing weight. Whe we tried kibble with Cash even though it was a weight loss formula and we measured it he gained a pound in a week. He just couldn't handle the carbs. This may not be the answer for coco, but thought I would throw it out there. We feed Cash 2 medallions and 1 ounce of plain ground meat at each meal, with some pumpkin and green beans.
> 
> How much does your vet think coco needs to lose? Use the weight he should be to
> figure out his caloric needs... And stick with that, including treats and table scraps. This was so much harder on us than on Cash... Well actually it was hard on him too... He loves to eat. Each medallion is 65 calories, so 4 medallions a day is only 260 calories... 6 would be 390 calories. I would want most of his calories coming from dog food (or homemade dog food) not table scraps...but if you do feed table scraps you need to calculate them.
> ...


I was hoping you'd post, Missy. I knew you had successfully returned Master Cash to his slender self!:biggrin1:


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## curly_DC (Nov 27, 2011)

I saw an Animal Planet show about an overweight cat. The trainer suggested the cat was "lashing" out and behaving badly because the extra weight on her joints was difficult to carry around. She wasn't able to jump up and do all those "cat" things. Just wondering if the extra weight has changed your dog's behavior. 

In regard to characteristics of the Havanese breed, it is interesting to me that Havs don't really have a "weight" standard. I wonder why, since they are a toy breed, which implies they are on the smaller side.


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## coco (Feb 26, 2011)

Missy said:


> I think Coco is gorgeous. I have pretty big boy too. Cash topped out at almost 25lbs. Even though we didnt think we were overfeeding He is now down to 17.5-18 lbs and much happier. We had some allergy issues going on too, and even though we were already doing natures variety raw, we switched to their bison formula, and that is when Cash started losing weight. Whe we tried kibble with Cash even though it was a weight loss formula and we measured it he gained a pound in a week. He just couldn't handle the carbs. This may not be the answer for coco, but thought I would throw it out there. We feed Cash 2 medallions and 1 ounce of plain ground meat at each meal, with some pumpkin and green beans.
> 
> How much does your vet think coco needs to lose? Use the weight he should be to
> figure out his caloric needs... And stick with that, including treats and table scraps. This was so much harder on us than on Cash... Well actually it was hard on him too... He loves to eat. Each medallion is 65 calories, so 4 medallions a day is only 260 calories... 6 would be 390 calories. I would want most of his calories coming from dog food (or homemade dog food) not table scraps...but if you do feed table scraps you need to calculate them.
> ...


Thanks everyone for sharing on this subject. Missy, the Vet never said how much he should weigh or loose. But I know I'd like to see him much thinner. So if he needed to loose 5lbs how do you calculate the calories? In any event I've started already cutting down and it is harder on me than him but I'll do it. Coco thanks you too!


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## Lisainidaho (Feb 1, 2012)

Oh geez, I can apply so much of this advice to my own personal frame. I sympathize and empathize with Coco. Hang in there Coco!!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

coco said:


> Thanks everyone for sharing on this subject. Missy, the Vet never said how much he should weigh or loose. But I know I'd like to see him much thinner. So if he needed to loose 5lbs how do you calculate the calories? In any event I've started already cutting down and it is harder on me than him but I'll do it. Coco thanks you too!


Hi Lucia. I know there is a complicated (to me) method of figuring out how much they should eat. But I just worked with the Natures Variety feeding guide. I did it for what Coco should eat at 22lbs. and then I figured out the calories knowing that each medallion is 65 calories... I did it both for not active and average activity.

5.4 medallions a day (not active) 351 calories 
6.2 medallions a day ( average activity) 403 Calories

Or 4 medallion a day (not active) 
Plus 1/4 cup grain free kibble

4.7 medallions a day (average activity)
Plus 1/4 cup grain free kibble

Also, if your willing to do it, I found using 1 ounce plain lean ground meat for one medallion a meal was just as satisifying for Cash but cut a few calories leaving room for a few more morsels at training or from the table (lean meat (7% fat) has 40 calories per once, beef, chicken, turkey or bison) Sabine told me that up 25% of can be replaced with lean meat and still maintain his nutritional needs. For Cash, this also helped his digestion.

We started by wanting Cash to be 22lbs. But when he hit that his metabolism took over and he got to 18lbs without changing a thing. We thought he would be too thin...but his vet really likes him at this weight. We can be a little more lax now.

Have you had Coco's thyroid tested? Are there any other health issues going on? allergies, or digestive issues? these all can be clues.

Being overweight myself, the most important thing is how Coco feels. Dogs like people come in all sizes...the only problem is he can't tell you how he feels. And we all know it is healthier to be slimmer... ( I wish I could be as disciplined for myself as I was with Cash)


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## Blue_Persuasion (Jan 4, 2012)

I have a Maltese who needed a diet desperately, primarily because he is in the beginning stages of congestive heart failure. I kept telling my husband (who is the feeder) that he was overweight. He kept saying it was his fur. I insisted that his fur felt obese. Then we found out about his heart, and the vet said he really needed to be thinner due to the overworking of his heart. He was about 10.5 when we began, and the vet wanted him around 7 to 7.5 -- close to 1/3 of his overall body weight. We aren't cookie feeders at all (they don't even know the word), so it was just a matter of weighing out his food and giving him a set amount (we also don't let them graze, so we had to find the right amount to get his weight down and then have him maintain it).

The other challenge was that, with his heart, we couldn't even walk him to exercise him. But within about two months, we hand him at about 7.3. He looks SO good and we likely extended his life.


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## Annie Clark (Nov 6, 2008)

Good luck! He is a cute boy and he looks happy!

I have the opposite problem -a thin girl but the vet thinks she is okay just on the thin side.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I'm like Missy. I never go by what the label suggests. I use that as a guide, but I count calories. My guys get around 300=325 calories from their food and then they get small treats. They get a piece of jerky, several small mini zukes, and a bone at night. The biggest thing I learned was it's not the size of the treat the dog cares about, it the frequency. 

I have a dog scale and I keep a close watch on their weights. I am very strict with their weights. If they gain weight, I will cut back. They get about a 45 minute walk per day. Other than they they are pretty inactive. I have a lazy clan here


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Our boys get a 1/2 hour to 45 minute walk every morning too. and a few potty walks or runs in the yard through the day. but those don't count. I also wanted to add another reason for adding the lean meat of your choice. Many commercial raw foods have too much bone and organ meat for some dogs. this was certainly the case with Cash. it certainly helped his digestion. I will never know if it was the change to bison or adding this extra lean meat that helped almost everything. his digestive issues, poop eating, ear and eye goop and also hot spots on his skin. quite frankly, at that point when we did it he was down to 21 lbs and we were all fine, but then he lost 3 more lbs on his own. the amazing thing to watch was when his own metabolism kicked in. 

so it's worth working with a different protein. you need to try it for a month at least before you will see anything.


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## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

Missy said:


> Hi Lucia. I know there is a complicated (to me) method of figuring out how much they should eat. But I just worked with the Natures Variety feeding guide. I did it for what Coco should eat at 22lbs. and then I figured out the calories knowing that each medallion is 65 calories... I did it both for not active and average activity.
> 
> 5.4 medallions a day (not active) 351 calories
> 6.2 medallions a day ( average activity) 403 Calories
> ...


Missy, How much do your medallions weight?


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Zury, I assume you mean how much do my Havs weigh? Jasper is 15.8 and Cash is 17.5 lbs. it's hard to believe that Cash has lost nearly a third of his weight when he topped at 25 lbs.

but Lucia said she thought Coco should lose about 5 lbs. so I used the Natures Variety feeding guide to figure it out for Coco 5 lbs lighter than he is now. so I figured out what a 22lb dog should weigh.

http://www.naturesvariety.com/feedguide

here's the feeding guide. even if you don't use their brand I find it an easy way to figure calories. because 1 medallion is 65 calories... so you just multiply how many they say your dog needs by 65. and you have an approximation.


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## Diann (Apr 25, 2011)

What it the normal weight for a big Hav? Charlie was 11.8. On Monday when he went to the vet and he'll turn 6 months on the 9th of April.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Hav's are all over the map Diann. the AKC standard says 7-13 lbs. But I know a lot of Neezer's in the 13-21 range. It's really not lbs that are important for pet Havanese, but if you can feel their ribs. Some one told me a great way to to judge...

If you make a tight fist and rub your fingers over your knuckles...that is what a too thin dogs ribs would feel like. If you rub your fingers over your fisted fingers right across where a ring would sit, that is what the ribs of an overweight dog would feel like. If you then run your fingers over your fisted hand that is what the ribs of a good weight dog should feel like.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Actually, AKC dropped the weight requirements. Instead, they just have a height range of 8 1/2 to 11 1/2" Kodi JUST squeaks under the height limit, but his "fighting weight" is 16.5 lbs.


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## heatherk (Feb 24, 2011)

Missy said:


> Hav's are all over the map Diann. the AKC standard says 7-13 lbs. But I know a lot of Neezer's in the 13-21 range. It's really not lbs that are important for pet Havanese, but if you can feel their ribs. Some one told me a great way to to judge...
> 
> If you make a tight fist and rub your fingers over your knuckles...that is what a too thin dogs ribs would feel like. If you rub your fingers over your fisted fingers right across where a ring would sit, that is what the ribs of an overweight dog would feel like. If you then run your fingers over your fisted hand that is what the ribs of a good weight dog should feel like.


I can very easily feel Cey's ribs (they don't quite feel as bony as knuckles but definitely bonier than my fisted hand) and hips, and especially his spine on the top. But at his latest vet visit just recently, the vet showed me how to feel the top of his back in back of the ribs but in front of the tail when he was standing; she said that if you can't too easily feel the spine there without pressing down, i.e., if it feels adequately muscular there, then that means they aren't too skinny; and she said that if you can still feel the spine above the ribs, it means they aren't too fat. -Just thought I'd share what she told me


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## longhorn27 (Aug 30, 2013)

We have owned two generations of Havanese and are on out third. Our mail is 18 pounds at 8 months and looks nothing like our smaller dogs-he looks just like the COCO dog! Extremely curly hair, red stripe down the back, mainly cream colored. One or the other ear flops open. He's a great dog and has the short front legs of a Havanese and the Havanese personality. I was doubting the AKC registration but I guess it's possible for them to be this big.


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## Tuss (Apr 22, 2012)

My Gemma is starting to get a little on the chubby side. Sounds like she's close in size to Kodi! She's almost 16 pounds and about 11"! She LOVEs to eat! I'm doing a lot of training and those treats just pack on the calories! I realize that if i want my dog around a long time then I have to keep her at a healthy weight, otherwise she won't be here as long as I want her to. I realize she loves her kibble so much that I've started using that as her training treats. I measure out the daily amount in the morning and give her a small amount in the bowl. Then throughout the day it as training treats and in the evening what is left (if any) she gets in her bowl. If there is none left then she doesn't get any and she doesn't get table scraps either, even if she gives me that pathetic stare and head tilt (okay, sometimes the head tilt will get her a little crumb, but no more).

Good luck.


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## DebW (Jun 11, 2013)

My Sheldon's Dad, whom I've never met in person, is only 6 lbs. Does anyone have a Havanese that small? I've never seen one that size.

His Mom is 15 lbs, though, and his growth rate suggests being closer to Mom's size when he's an adult.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tuss said:


> My Gemma is starting to get a little on the chubby side. Sounds like she's close in size to Kodi! She's almost 16 pounds and about 11"! She LOVEs to eat! I'm doing a lot of training and those treats just pack on the calories! I realize that if i want my dog around a long time then I have to keep her at a healthy weight, otherwise she won't be here as long as I want her to. I realize she loves her kibble so much that I've started using that as her training treats. I measure out the daily amount in the morning and give her a small amount in the bowl. Then throughout the day it as training treats and in the evening what is left (if any) she gets in her bowl. If there is none left then she doesn't get any and she doesn't get table scraps either, even if she gives me that pathetic stare and head tilt (okay, sometimes the head tilt will get her a little crumb, but no more).
> 
> Good luck.


Kodi is 11 3/4", and at 16 lbs (which he is right now) he's actually a little skinny. Not unhealthily skinny, but NO room for error. I think he's lost weight because he's been working so hard this summer, because he's still eating as well as ever. It may also be that he is getting less training treats. We have been working very hard on personal play as a motivator rather than always using food as rewards. Of course, this is for established behaviors... We still use food for teaching new behaviors! But the personal play is SO important, becuase it's the only thing you can take into the ring with you for AKC Obedience. That also means, though, that he's getting less calories from training, even though he's still working hard. I've actually increased his food a bit... I feel better when he's right about 16.5 lbs. that's still a very slim, trim weight for him, without the bony feel he has right now.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

DebW said:


> My Sheldon's Dad, whom I've never met in person, is only 6 lbs. Does anyone have a Havanese that small? I've never seen one that size.
> 
> His Mom is 15 lbs, though, and his growth rate suggests being closer to Mom's size when he's an adult.


The smallest adult Hav that I know is 8 lbs when she's at a good weight, and she JUST meets the height standard. I suspect a 6 lb adult is quite a bit under standard.


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## Pixiesmom (Jul 31, 2008)

DebW said:


> My Sheldon's Dad, whom I've never met in person, is only 6 lbs. Does anyone have a Havanese that small? I've never seen one that size.
> 
> His Mom is 15 lbs, though, and his growth rate suggests being closer to Mom's size when he's an adult.


Pixie is really a peewee. A good weight for her is 7, but she is under construction at the moment and definitely needs to loose a few. Mig is twice her length.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I have a 7 lb hav and she is way way small. I can't even image a 6lb hav.
Bella just makes the standard at 8.5 at the withers. She is a skinny mini too


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## MyLittleHavanese (Jan 15, 2013)

At 3 years old mine were just at the vet this week and weighed in at. Bella 7.6 lbs and Gizmo 13.9 lbs.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

funny this thread came up. They stopped making NV bison medallions about a year ago...Cash is now eating the exact same amount and calories but lamb. and and he has slowly put on some weight again. How can one darn meat be the only thing he can eat? 

luckily his other bad habits have not come back-- like poop eating... and he isn't ravenous like he is on chicken or beef... but he is up to almost 21lbs again. I am not sure what to do... he already gets many walks a day and a very long one in the morning. I can't feed him any less. I just can't. And I can't cook for him both for the time and money (human bison is more expensive than raw dog food.) He can't eat canned cause he's allergic to the supplements. How can he only metabolize bison?


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## My2Havs (Jun 5, 2009)

Missy said:


> funny this thread came up. They stopped making NV bison medallions about a year ago...Cash is now eating the exact same amount and calories but lamb. and and he has slowly put on some weight again. How can one darn meat be the only thing he can eat?
> 
> luckily his other bad habits have not come back-- like poop eating... and he isn't ravenous like he is on chicken or beef... but he is up to almost 21lbs again. I am not sure what to do... he already gets many walks a day and a very long one in the morning. I can't feed him any less. I just can't. And I can't cook for him both for the time and money (human bison is more expensive than raw dog food.) He can't eat canned cause he's allergic to the supplements. How can he only metabolize bison?


Have you considered another brand of frozen raw? Northwest Naturals is available here in bars or nuggets and they have bison. I'm sure there are other brands too but I used this one awhile back so it came to mind. 
http://cms.nw-naturals.net/raw/

Monica, Dooley & Roxie


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Tuss said:


> My Gemma is starting to get a little on the chubby side. Sounds like she's close in size to Kodi! She's almost 16 pounds and about 11"! She LOVEs to eat! I'm doing a lot of training and those treats just pack on the calories! I realize that if i want my dog around a long time then I have to keep her at a healthy weight, otherwise she won't be here as long as I want her to. I realize she loves her kibble so much that I've started using that as her training treats. I measure out the daily amount in the morning and give her a small amount in the bowl. Then throughout the day it as training treats and in the evening what is left (if any) she gets in her bowl. If there is none left then she doesn't get any and she doesn't get table scraps either, even if she gives me that pathetic stare and head tilt (okay, sometimes the head tilt will get her a little crumb, but no more).Good luck.


This thread seems to have opened up again so I'm not making my usual mistake of adding to an age-old thread, not realising the most recent post was years ago, irrelevant stuff from today! At least, I hope I'm not. Treats do NOT have to 'pack on the calories'; it's the carb count that packs on the weight; high protein jerky-type treats (Ziwipeak is BRILLIANT!) really do not add weight as long as the diet overall is not full of grain and other pointless simple carbs. There are a lot of kibble manufacturers now (Ziwipeak, Orijen and Applaws are the three I know of, but I think there are lots of others, and probably some in the US we don't have here in the UK) who have finally woken up to the value of higher protein. They appear to cost more, but the quantity needed is far lower, so it often works out pretty much the same, AND you save, potentially, on the vets' bills.... REALLY worth a try!!!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

At the risk of being a real Grain Bore, it's grain that does the damage, not just because it is bad for dogs (and humans) but because it is addictive (converts to sugar) and makes you and/or your dog want to eat all the time. Please, please don't be fat phobic! Fat is the ingredient that promotes satiety - the feeling of fulness. In the wild, dogs and other carnivores (lions, for example) or omnivores, when they make a kill, will go for the fat first; if a pride of lions brings down a zebra they will take fat and the marrow in the bones before they go for the protein. They know what we have all become taught to be terrified of, that fat is vital for survival. The fat that you consume is NOT the same as the fat on your body. Dogs, and humans, will lose weight if you cut out grain, never mind the calories - you can't overeat if you eat fat and protein and complex carbohydrates (vegetables) because you will not be hungry as you will if you eat sugar. Simple carbohydrate equals sugar. One slice of bread, for us, is equivalent to roughly two tablespoons of sugar. Sugar makes you want to eat more. Sorry preaching, but I can't bear it that we have all been so misled for so long. ONE day the pendulum will swing. Let's, as dog owners, help to be the ones who understand better that vested interest and zero evidence have brought about the obesity epidemic in us and our pets.


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## Ruth4Havs (May 13, 2013)

And Chester is 16.5 lbs now....sheesh he is one BIG boy...


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Still not sure when you classify a Havanese as 'adult'; not, as I understand it, when a bitch reaches her first season?? Cuba must be, at 6 months old today, heading for her first season any time now and she's only 6 lbs; she certainly looks smaller than both her parents, and is 5 lbs lighter than Tycho, my 6 year old Coton, but I'm assuming she could still go on growing for, I think others have said, another six months or so?? Or is that wrong?


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Lalla said:


> Still not sure when you classify a Havanese as 'adult'; not, as I understand it, when a bitch reaches her first season?? Cuba must be, at 6 months old today, heading for her first season any time now and she's only 6 lbs; she certainly looks smaller than both her parents, and is 5 lbs lighter than Tycho, my 6 year old Coton, but I'm asreacjg she could still go on growing for, I think others have said, another six months or so?? Or is that wrong?


No, when a female has her first season it is similar to a girl of 12 starting puberty in that they are both in early adolescence (sp.) The 12 yr old is far from adult height, same as a dog at 6-7 months. When I was showing my dog she was 8 months and about 3/4 height of the adults. Now she is about 10 lbs and 10" at shoulder. So you are right, around 1 they reach their adult height and about 2 they mature mentally.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

atsilvers27 said:


> No, when a female has her first season it is similar to a girl of 12 starting puberty in that they are both in early adolescence (sp.) The 12 yr old is far from adult height, same as a dog at 6-7 months. When I was showing my dog she was 8 months and about 3/4 height of the adults. Now she is about 10 lbs and 10" at shoulder. So you are right, around 1 they reach their adult height and about 2 they mature mentally.


That makes perfect sense (more sense than "asreacjg", whatever I meant by that!), atsilvers27 (v sorry, I don't know your name), thanks so much.


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