# How accurate can breeders assess puppy's full grown weight?



## havanesehopin

Hi there,

I'm getting ready to look for a puppy and I would love a Havanese on the smaller end of the standard. I am curious if the breeders only guess the puppy's full grown weight by the weight of the parents or if there are other factors they use to assess full-grown weight. How accurate are experienced breeders usually? What do they look at to determine their assessments?

I checked out another thread about temperament of smaller havs and it looked like they were consistent with the breed which is great! Again, I'm not looking for a "teacup" or tiny havanese. I would just like one on the smaller side of the range.

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.


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## haley

Reggie's parents were 11 and 12 pounds I believe so the breeder said he would be between 10 and 12 pounds, and at first the vet said the same thing. He gained weight very slowly and as the vet said he is simply petite all over, and is now around 7 pounds and at 9 months will probably not grow much more, so clearly the breeder/vet were not acurate! He is noticeably smaller all around then other havs I have seen (people always comment on how small he is), but he is totally healthy! I didn't care how big or small he was, but it is convienient having a little guy! I read somewhere that below 7 pounds is too small to be healthy for the breed so I am glad he made it to that weight!


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## Tom King

It's impossible to predict accurately, but if a puppy is consistantly smaller than its littermates, and is fine boned, you would be able to tell that it will be on the light end. A heavier boned pup is not going to stay small.


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## krandall

I have one of Tom and Pam's pups, and his parents, Posh and Razzle, are, I believe in the 11-12 lb range, isn't that right, Tom? Kodi ended up a trim 16 1/2 lbs, at the top of the height range. I remember that when we were assessing the pups, Pam had said that Kodi was "heavier boned" than the other pups, though I had no idea what that really meant. But I wanted a dog as a performance dog, not for conformation showing or breeding, so I really didn't care about his size. The pup in the litter who was clearly much smaller than the others was not a candidate for me for other reasons, though I'm sure he made someone else a perfect pet. 

I'm sure Pam and Tom knew that Kodi wasn't going to be a "small" Hav, but I'm not sure they could have predicted he would get as large as he did, either.

Oh, and Kodi turned out to be EXACTLY what I wanted... He's not only the love of my life, but is also an AMAZING performance dog in both Obedience and Agility.


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## TilliesMom

my breeder KNEW Tillie was going to be on the small side. IT was NOT in any way why we chose her however!! It just happened that way! Because her breeder knew she was going to be on the small side, she would NOT give her to anyone that was planning to breed as she wanted what was best for Tillie and didn't want her to be bred. It worked in our favor for sure!! she was 14 weeks when we found her and weighed about 3 lbs... 
Tillie has very light 'bird bones' and seems to have topped out at 8 1/2 lbs, which is a great weight for her! People are always surprised to pick her up and feel how light she really is! LOL


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## Thumper

I was the same way, I wanted the smaller end of average (but not teacup) I ended up with the Runt and boy is she a spitfire...lol 
I think you can guess pretty close from the parent's size, I suppose diet could effect it, but Gucci is about the same size as her mama 9-10 lbs and I'm glad she's not heavier since I lug her around in a bag so much (dog carrier bag) and even 10 lbs gets heavy after awhile 

Kara


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## Suzi

Maddie is on the small side about 9 lbs. She has a bunch of muscle but is much shorter than Zoey. She is so cute. Her breeder said all the puppys from that litter were small. I'm not sure if that mom and dad consistently have small puppies or not. Zoey is about 10 lbs but looks much bigger because she is taller.


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## havanesehopin

Tom King said:


> It's impossible to predict accurately, but if a puppy is consistantly smaller than its littermates, and is fine boned, you would be able to tell that it will be on the light end. A heavier boned pup is not going to stay small.


Thanks Tom. Do you calculate what the "smaller end" or "larger end" is based on the parents or based on the standard of the breed?


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## Tom King

The Standard. All our breeding dogs are 10 1/2 to 12 1/2 pounds, so we don't have experience breeding any from outside that range. One dog several generations back in a pedigree, who was known to throw different sizes, is enough to increase the range of puppy size in spite of the parents' size, but it's still very hard to predict. We've had 1 % less than Standard, and 1 % over Standard. That's two each in a few over 200 puppies. Karen's Kodi is one of the 2 over. All four shared one Grandfather who has shown to throw a range of sizes. No need to ask me to name a name here, but it wasn't one of ours.

Relative bone size will tell you about as much as you will get to rely on. Puppy weight from birth until 12 weeks won't do it.


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## havanesehopin

Thanks so much Tom. I appreciate the help!


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## heatherk

One thing to remember is that while the breeder can give a general estimation as to size and temperament, the fact is, no matter what Havanese you get, you will most likely end up loving them so quickly and so thoroughly (and they will love you back the same) that even if they weren't what you thought you originally wanted, you will still end up with what you think is the perfect dog


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## krandall

Tom King said:


> The Standard. All our breeding dogs are 10 1/2 to 12 1/2 pounds, so we don't have experience breeding any from outside that range. One dog several generations back in a pedigree, who was known to throw different sizes, is enough to increase the range of puppy size in spite of the parents' size, but it's still very hard to predict. We've had 1 % less than Standard, and 1 % over Standard. That's two each in a few over 200 puppies. Karen's Kodi is one of the 2 over. All four shared one Grandfather who has shown to throw a range of sizes. No need to ask me to name a name here, but it wasn't one of ours.
> 
> Relative bone size will tell you about as much as you will get to rely on. Puppy weight from birth until 12 weeks won't do it.


And according to the current standard, which no longer specifies weight, Kodi is NOT over standard, but just within. He is 11 1/2" tall, and the standard says up to 11 1/2". If he were a pony, we'd have to pull his shoes when he was being measured.:biggrin1: (So I guess your percentage just got better)

One thing I wonder with Kodi is if he would have stayed smaller if I'd neutered him later. I know that gelding horses earlier tends to make them grow taller... (again, not that it makes ANY difference for my purposes)


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## krandall

heatherk said:


> One thing to remember is that while the breeder can give a general estimation as to size and temperament, the fact is, no matter what Havanese you get, you will most likely end up loving them so quickly and so thoroughly (and they will love you back the same) that even if they weren't what you thought you originally wanted, you will still end up with what you think is the perfect dog


That should be our forum motto!:biggrin1:


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## havanesehopin

I'm sure I will! I'm just trying to look out for my back for the future as well!


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## TnTWalter

Winston is 16 pounds and 11" tall. I was talking to a gal yesterday who asked what he was and was surprised because she didn't think havanese were so big. LOL.

I hate to admit it but I do still wish he was smaller....even though I adore him.

So if that is important to you...make sure you meet the parents, find information on past litters, etc.

I hope Winston lives forever. I really do love him. My kids are sometimes jealous. LOL. So don't worry if what you get ends up being something different looks-wise than originally planned...like a white dog when you didn't want white [for Tilliesmom and me LOL] or a big dog when you wanted little, etc. Temperment is much more important.


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## TilliesMom

ha ha ha Trish... well she could always join us in the "little white dog" club!! 

and LOL about your kids being jealous of Winston sometimes! I went to the mall with my 6 yr old daughter and Tillie (in her stroller) over the weekend and of course everywhere we went everyone went ga-ga over Tillie... when we got home, my daughter started crying and said, "But no one even noticed I was THERE!!" LOL


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## DonnaC

I picked runts both times (not sure what it is about me). At nearly 8 mos, Baxter is 10.1 pounds. I don't think that's necessarily small, and I think he still has weight to gain, right? So, my point is, runti-ness isn't always an indicator. One question to ask is about appetite. A lot of Havs have pretty small appetites, and that might be an indicator. Baxter loves to eat!


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## DonnaC

Omigosh -- I just had to assure my 12-year-old yesterday that I love him as much as I love the puppies. He had gotten in the expen and was pretending to be a dog!


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## lkwilson

DonnaC said:


> Omigosh -- I just had to assure my 12-year-old yesterday that I love him as much as I love the puppies. He had gotten in the expen and was pretending to be a dog!


That's hilarious...


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## motherslittlehelper

TnTWalter said:


> Winston is 16 pounds and 11" tall. I was talking to a gal yesterday who asked what he was and was surprised because she didn't think havanese were so big. LOL.
> 
> I hate to admit it but I do still wish he was smaller....even though I adore him.
> 
> So if that is important to you...make sure you meet the parents, find information on past litters, etc.
> 
> I hope Winston lives forever. I really do love him. My kids are sometimes jealous. LOL. So don't worry if what you get ends up being something different looks-wise than originally planned...like a white dog when you didn't want white [for Tilliesmom and me LOL] or a big dog when you wanted little, etc. Temperment is much more important.


Don't worry if the sex doesn't end up being what you think you want either! ound: I wanted a *small female.* Augie definitely isn't a small female! ound: When we went to visit the litter and check the puppies out, there just wasn't a connection with the little female who had initially caught my eye. And I think Augie is 2-3 lbs. larger than his parents were. I don't regret anything about selecting him (although one without a propensity for eating poop might be nice ) I am curious as to how large the little female got, because her feet were definitely much smaller than Augie's. I recall thinking, after we brought him home, that with the size of his feet, he is going to be larger than we initially thought. He is around 12 to 12.5 lbs. now. And Finn is going to make Augie look petite by comparison, by the time he is through growing, I'm afraid. Definitely going to be larger than I preferred, but I would not trade his silly/cute/quirky personality for the perfect-sized Hav - *for anything!* I think even Augie's size, however, is too large to pack around in one of those shoulder bags or backpacks. Don't think I could handle it for long. Would have to get a stroller if I needed to transport them away from the car, and they couldn't be allowed to walk on the ground.

Finn has quite large feet in comparison with Augie. So maybe the feet are a good indicator?? Maybe a breeder could answer that for you.


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## tootle

I think we can make a reasonable estimation of size based on the parents, previous litters and bone size but could never guarantee an eventual size. We've seen some of our pups end up "well fed" so the weight was a little more than we expected ;-) It's also possible to make some reasonable guesses on height from the 8 week evaluation. Be careful not to look for a breeder that shoot for "teacup" size. I think all of us sometimes end up with the occasional smaller pup but it certainly isn't something we breed for. However, we do breed to get a 9 1/2 - 10 inch, 10-12 lb Hav which may be the smaller end of the standard than some breeders prefer. I like to be able to easily carry my boys around and travel in the cabin on flights.


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