# Before You Buy



## SMARTY

I wish I totally agreed with these statements made in different threads but not sure I can.. You all know my Smarty story, every mistake in the book. I knew better it just happened to work out for me because I read the Havanese standard, understood most of it and had a pretty good eye for structure. To make a long story short, I bought a pet, saw what was showing, decided to give it a try, Smarty won 3 majors her second weekend out at 7 months and finished her American championship at 9 months. All owner handled. She was spayed at 18 months because I did not feel she was breeding quality, she is now playing at agility.

BEFORE YOU BUY

1. Read the standard of the breed.
2. Get copies of all know health test for the breed, and understand the ratings or results.
3. Get references from breed clubs or past buyers of this breeder
4. Hair & Grooming can cover a lot of faults in this breed, be sure to see soaped pictures.

A pet is not a puppy with crooked legs or any other problem the breeder can spot that might need surgery, extensive medical attention or anything that will limit the quality of life it will have with a family. In the past these were considered culls. Breeders had to be held to a higher standard than I believed they do today. Good breeders did make the hard calls they did not have the option of limited registration for the dog. Any animal could face you in the ring to show your breeding program. 

For a Breeder to sell a puppy for $1,500 for rather than $3,000, the difference in price should be due to coat quality, markings, size, better head piece, top line, length of body, tooth placement, etc but never, never for deformities. I always though the most important puppy sold was a pet going to the perfect family for the next 12 to 15 years.

My opinion, others please jump in with your thoughs.


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## Sheri

Sandi, I agree with what you are saying here; Tucker entered my home as a beloved little family member, to share my life as long as possible. If he were sold to me as a "pet" because of structural imperfections that could lead to health issues, I would consider that unethical and radically wrong. None of us is guaranteed health and a long life, but, a breeder that would knowingly do that...would just be plain wrong.

As I've observed several times here on the Forum, the best breeders take their responsibility to the puppies they bring into the world very seriously.


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## Kathy

Sandi,
You are correct that breeders more in the past would cull puppies that weren't right. However, in today's world, politics (PETA & other animal rights groups) make this practice not so popular. Also, many defects and health issues are not apparent at birth much less at 10 - 12 weeks when puppies in our breed are typically sent to their forever homes. The mind thought of society today is no different then a disabled human. They deserve to be cared for and live a life the best they can. Breeders in years past use to have 50 + breeding dogs, we call that today more of a puppymill type breeder. Things are different. As a breeder I made a decision a long time ago that if a newborn puppy wasn't thriving and heroic measures were needed, I probably would not take them. Thankfully I have not had to make that decision yet.

So, I guess for me, I am saying I don't totally agree with what you are saying. That is ok, as differing opinions is what makes the world go round. <grin>


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## MopTop Havanese

I am not sure I fully understand what you are saying----but do you mean that us as breeders, should put a puppy to sleep if it has a deformity or other health issue that may affect it later in life? IF this is what you are saying, I disagree 100%--- and I will use my little Mouse as an example. I noticed when she was 6 weeks old that her leg was not right. I watched as it bowed out more each week. I kept her here at my house until she was 6 months old. I thought long and hard if doing surgery for her was the right thing. Putting her to sleep NEVER ONCE crossed my mind. I did end up doing the surgery on her and had her spayed at the same time-this was a very expensive surgery. She now lives with a lady who has some medical issues of her own. (and yes, this lady purchased Mouse). She absolutley LOVES Mouse with everything she has. I get updates frequently telling me that Mouse is the BEST dog ever. She loves her to pieces, and thanks ME for letting her have Mouse!
If I misunderstood what you are saying, I am sorry!


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## Petaluna

This should be an interesting discussion. I'm not sure I understand exactly what Sandi is saying, though the gist of it to me seems that a more expensive puppy would be closer to perfect in terms of the standard, but that a less expensive "pet" puppy should not have any known health issues or deformities, just less perfectly conforming to the standard. I'm not sure I understand either what the fate is supposed to be for the ones with birth defects and deformities, maybe they should be donated or sold for a reasonable "adoption fee" to those willing to love them and meet their particular medical needs, and of course good responsible breeders should not have too many of those births occurring anyway, though what Kathy said about those problems not showing up until later could complicate that picture.

As a pet buyer, all I wanted was a healthy, even-tempered dog from healthy, happy parents who had been raised in a clean and loving environment with all the proper attention paid to her physical and emotional needs, and socialization, started on potty training, etc. I had some size, color and coat preferences, but beyond that, things like head shape and top line were not really an issue. Health and the happy, sweet, sociable personality that seems characteristic of this breed was my priority. I still would want my breeder and others to be striving to better the breed, though, because that only increases my odds of having less health or temperament issues with my dog if I do my part in her care and training once I bring her home.


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## SMARTY

answered with in



Kathy said:


> Sandi,
> You are correct that breeders more in the past would cull puppies that weren't right. However, in today's world, politics (PETA & other animal rights groups) make this practice not so popular. Also, many defects and health issues are not apparent at birth much less at 10 - 12 weeks when puppies in our breed are typically sent to their forever homes. *I agree but most breeders should be able to see alot of what is passed off as pets as health problems.*The mind thought of society today is no different then a disabled human. They deserve to be cared for and live a life the best they can.*I agree the breeder should keep them not pass them off as pets* Breeders in years past use to have 50 + breeding dogs*In all the years I breed I never knew of anyone that had 10 breeding dogs much less 50, we too would have called that a puppy mill.*, we call that today more of a puppymill type breeder. Things are different*I don't think things are that different, People can just hide more under the "pet brand" with limited registration.*. As a breeder I made a decision a long time ago that if a newborn puppy wasn't thriving and heroic measures were needed, I probably would not take them. Thankfully I have not had to make that decision yet.
> 
> So, I guess for me, I am saying I don't totally agree with what you are saying. That is ok, as differing opinions is what makes the world go round. <grin>


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## SMARTY

reply with in.



MopTop Havanese said:


> I am not sure I fully understand what you are saying----but do you mean that us as breeders, should put a puppy to sleep if it has a deformity or other health issue that may affect it later in life? *If you plan on keeping them that is fine* IF this is what you are saying, I disagree 100%--- and I will use my little Mouse as an example. I noticed when she was 6 weeks old that her leg was not right. I watched as it bowed out more each week. I kept her here at my house until she was 6 months old. I thought long and hard if doing surgery for her was the right thing. Putting her to sleep NEVER ONCE crossed my mind. I did end up doing the surgery on her and had her spayed at the same time-this was a very expensive surgery. *You did the right thing, you did the surgery, not pass it on to a pet owner.* She now lives with a lady who has some medical issues of her own. (and yes, this lady purchased Mouse). She absolutley LOVES Mouse with everything she has. I get updates frequently telling me that Mouse is the BEST dog ever. She loves her to pieces, and thanks ME for letting her have Mouse!
> If I misunderstood what you are saying, I am sorry!


*this lady would have loved Mouse if she were a puppy with none of these problems.*


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## SMARTY

Petaluna, you understood me perfectly. You are correct in what all pet owners should want and expect.


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## ama0722

I think this is very important and needs to be said again (so I copied it!) ESPECIALLY THOSE THINKING OF BREEDING... But I will also say, go over the puppy in person if you can and the puppy's parents. For Dash, I was lucky enough to see his Grandma, Dad, and Mom and I see so much of them in him whether he is in the performance ring, chasing birds in the backyard, trying to grab a stick and bring it in the house, etc. I personally have never bred anything and not sure if I ever will but I love these dogs and wish every breeder would study, read, attend seminars, and really think about the litter they are breeding and put tons of time and effort into them that way everyone gets a great Hav puppy- especially families!



> BEFORE YOU BUY
> 
> 1. Read the standard of the breed.
> 2. Get copies of all know health test for the breed, and understand the ratings or results.
> 3. Get references from breed clubs or past buyers of this breeder
> 4. Hair & Grooming can cover a lot of faults in this breed, be sure to see soaped pictures.


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## pjewel

As to putting a puppy to sleep because of a deformity or other health problem, not in my world. It would be like choosing to end the life of a family member with a less than perfect body.


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## Evye's Mom

pjewel said:


> As to putting a puppy to sleep because of a deformity or other health problem, not in my world. It would be like choosing to end the life of a family member with a less than perfect body.


Ditto. I expand it to felines as well. I had a very long journey with my 3 feline family members and euthenasia was never an option...until the absolute very end when everything that could be done, WAS done, and it was the kindest thing I could have done for them.


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## SMARTY

Geri and Sharlene, I never once thought or said you should put your pets to sleep. You would not believe what has lived at my house, until they died of old age. BUT when someone calls their self a breeder they should not pass off their poor breeding skills or problem puppies on an unsuspecting public. This is no better than a puppy mill to me. 
It should never be buyer beware with a pet. A pet should be just not show quality, not less than perfect health quality. Or at least no know health issues.


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## SMARTY

Sorry, I posted twice.


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## juliav

SMARTY said:


> Geri and Sharlene, I never once thought or said you should put your pets to sleep. You would not believe what has lived at my house, until they died of old age. BUT when someone calls their self a breeder they should not pass off their poor breeding skills or problem puppies on an unsuspecting public. This is no better than a puppy mill to me.
> It should never be buyer beware with a pet. A pet should be just not show quality, not less than perfect health quality. Or at least no know health issues.


I couldn't agree with you more.


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## Beamer

Very interesting thread! I needed to grab a nice cup of coffee for this one.. lol

Ryan


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## Evye's Mom

Sandi, I didn't think you were implying that...honest. I was only commenting on euthenasia as an alternative to many pet owners when their pets begin ill, injured or conditions that require dedication and costly medical care. It's inevitable in their lifetime. I should not have commented on this thread because I was not really responding to your specific issue or the point you were trying to make..only euthenization period...sorry, spoke out of turn. Apologizes.


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## mellowbo

I'm not sure I understand this thread, duh, lol. As a pet owner I would expect my puppy to be free of life-threatening genetic defects that the breeder is aware of. If my puppy has cosmetic defects such as underbite, not perfect legs or topline, not perfect coat, pigment, etc, to me that would be why he is not a show dog. 
This little not-perfect lovable beating heart is what most pets are. 
Or maybe I'm just not understanding something.......
Carole


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## pjewel

SMARTY said:


> Geri and Sharlene, I never once thought or said you should put your pets to sleep. You would not believe what has lived at my house, until they died of old age. BUT when someone calls their self a breeder they should not pass off their poor breeding skills or problem puppies on an unsuspecting public. This is no better than a puppy mill to me.
> It should never be buyer beware with a pet. A pet should be just not show quality, not less than perfect health quality. Or at least no know health issues.


I was responding to Katie's post in which she mentioned putting a puppy to sleep.


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## JASHavanese

SMARTY said:


> A pet is not a puppy with crooked legs or any other problem the breeder can spot that might need surgery, extensive medical attention or anything that will limit the quality of life it will have with a family. In the past these were considered culls. Breeders had to be held to a higher standard than I believed they do today. .


Thank the lucky stars above that I haven't had to deal with this but if a dog isn't a pet, what is it? 
There are lemon laws now where if you knowingly sell a defective puppy without disclosure the fine is unreal. I don't remember breeders in the past that would jump in and take a puppy back for any reason, but responsible breeders do it now.
I think I see where you're going with your thoughts and can agree with them as a general rule. Is it basically breed right, be responsible, deal with any health issues, and make sure to health test?


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## SMARTY

My # 1 reason for posting this is to let the new Havanese buyer know to do your homework before you buy. We have all seen countless threads where something is wrong with a puppy, the breeder said or would not accept they had any idea there was a problem. I would bet 98 % of the buyers would not send back a puppy and the breeders know it. 

You will never know the internal issue you may face and with these coats you do not see the external ones if you do know how to look.


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## SMARTY

JASHavanese said:


> Thank the lucky stars above that I haven't had to deal with this but if a dog isn't a pet, what is it?
> There are lemon laws now where if you knowingly sell a defective puppy without disclosure the fine is unreal. I don't remember breeders in the past that would jump in and take a puppy back for any reason, but responsible breeders do it now.
> I think I see where you're going with your thoughts and can agree with them as a general rule. Is it basically breed right, be responsible, deal with any health issues, and make sure to health test?


Most lemon laws are only good with in state sales. With the wonderful internet this happens less and less.

Yes as a breeder and buyer do your homework and know what you are doing.


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## KrisE

are there any federal lemon laws to deal with internet sales as of yet?


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## SMARTY

I have no idea if there is a federal lemon law that would cover something like your issues, there is one for cars,


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## KrisE

There is one in Minnesota. If someone sells a dog with a defect and it has to be repaired... the breeder is to pay all medical costs up to the price of the dog AND return the fee ... 

Ive done some searching with no results regarding federal laws.


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## HavaneseSoon

Interesting topic.................I always wondered, if................anyone did return their pup, let's just say the buyer did return their pup. What would the breeder do with the pup? Would the breeder sell the pup to someone else. 

I also believe the breeders do tell the buyers they will take back a puppy, but are really hoping the buyer would never return the puppy because a bond has already been made. 

A breeder can't keep a lot of returned puppies, let's just say......, the breeder has a bunch of returned puppies.....

If you were a breeder, what would you do with the returned puppies?


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