# Age for neuter



## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2018)

What is everyones experience/thoughts on the best age to get your pup neutered?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I think that the short answer is, "it depends". The "right" answer is going to be different for every dog and every family. Many breeders mandate the time in their contract, and if you want to do something different, you need to discuss it with them up-front. But many breeders will work with you on that date if you have a valid reason for wanting to do something different.

This is the best, in-depth look at current literature, and the pro's and con's. I would highly suggest that EVERYONE get a copy and read it before deciding when to spay/neuter their puppy. In fact, I know a couple of breeders who are including this booklet in their "puppy packet" when they send puppies home:

https://shoppuppyculture.com/collections/books-1/products/puppy-culture-spay-neuter-booklet


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

That looks like a great resource! 

I neutered on the early side for a few reasons, including timing with our family’s schedule. I’ll likely wait until a year next time, though. I’ll have to read the literature Karen posted before I decide

There’s kind of a tradition of scaring people into neutering that almost gives the impression it’s impossible to prevent pregnancy without neutering as soon as possible. I learned early on that it’s critical to potty training to supervise my puppy, and we also learned early to control every exit, so the idea of my puppy escaping and getting all of the neighborhood dogs pregnant is pretty far fetched. I also think the common arguments for early neutering, such as preventing marking and humping, are grossly misrepresented. For one thing, both marking and humping can be managed behaviorally regardless of neutering status. 

Basically I think everyone has to make the decision based on what works best in their own lives. In some cases it’s going to be earlier than others. Just don’t make the decision under pressure or out of fear that it has to be done right away or there’s irreversible damage. Whatever you decide will be the right thing for your Havanese.


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## PNWAlan (Oct 9, 2018)

The dog that we had previously to Skye had problems that I feel were related to early neuter. The worst of which was a ruptured CCL that research has shown a direct link to early neutering. IMHO if you feel you must neuter your dog, it should never be done before they reach sexual maturity.

https://healthyandhappydog.com/cranial-cruciate-ligament-tear/

Elizabeth posted while I was writing. I agree fully with all she said. I will also add that due do circumstances Skye's neuter has been put on hold and he is now 14 months old. He did go through a marking stage that lasted well less than a month and now only marks outside on a leash when I allow it. He had one little friend that he regularly tried (unsuccessfully) to hump. Other than that I can remember only a few short lived attempts to hump objects or humans. Those behaviors can be controlled.

.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I agree with both of you. I have an intact 4 year old girl (to talk about it from the female side) The idea that I could not keep her from becoming pregnant "by mistake" is ridiculous. I think she is old enough at this point that if she were not still showing, I'm not POSITIVE there are still benefits to keeping her intact. But from everything I've read and my vet agrees, the risks of allowing her to remain intact (and unbred) until she is at least 6 are minimal. At that point I will reassess, though from the research I have read, even up to 10 years of age, pyo (the biggest health risk for unspayed females) is extremely uncommon in Havanese. The problem is, that IF they get it, it is ALWAYS an emergency, high-risk spay, and extremely dangerous infection. Of course I want to avoid that for her!


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## RIstream (Aug 21, 2008)

From everything I’ve read, the benefits of waiting, hormone development etc., far outweigh the minimal risk of not doing it. We lost our Cooper to cancer at a young age and I wonder if an early neuter could have contributed. Some of what I read suggests a connection of early neuter/spay to the large number of cancer cases in dogs. So after reading and our breeders suggestion, we decided to wait even though we got a little push back from a vet tech. Ollie will be 18 months in April so that’s when we’ll do it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

RIstream said:


> From everything I've read, the benefits of waiting, hormone development etc., far outweigh the minimal risk of not doing it. We lost our Cooper to cancer at a young age and I wonder if an early neuter could have contributed. Some of what I read suggests a connection of early neuter/spay to the large number of cancer cases in dogs. So after reading and our breeders suggestion, we decided to wait even though we got a little push back from a vet tech. Ollie will be 18 months in April so that's when we'll do it.


And while I don't like push back even from vets, push back from vet TECHS should not be tolerated. A vet TECH is NOT a veterinarian and should not be giving veterinary advice. I would complain to the vet in charge if a tech in my vet's office were handing out unsolicited advice on veterinary matters.


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## RIstream (Aug 21, 2008)

We kindly let the tech know that while we appreciated her opinion, we’d talk to the vet and wait. She pushed a bit more and we let the vet know. It hasn’t happened again.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> And while I don't like push back even from vets, push back from vet TECHS should not be tolerated. A vet TECH is NOT a veterinarian and should not be giving veterinary advice. I would complain to the vet in charge if a tech in my vet's office were handing out unsolicited advice on veterinary matters.


Oh wow...I have seen this many times!!! Totally agree!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

RIstream said:


> From everything I've read, the benefits of waiting, hormone development etc., far outweigh the minimal risk of not doing it. We lost our Cooper to cancer at a young age and I wonder if an early neuter could have contributed. Some of what I read suggests a connection of early neuter/spay to the large number of cancer cases in dogs. So after reading and our breeders suggestion, we decided to wait even though we got a little push back from a vet tech. Ollie will be 18 months in April so that's when we'll do it.


One of my biggest regrets is neutering both my dogs early. I trusted the vet blindly and followed their advice. I know better now. They both have huge strikes against them and I cannot take that back. I have tried to make up for it with diet and avoiding toxins/vaccines which is about all I can do at this point. So far they are healthy at age 11 so I consider myself lucky so far. But the odds are against them.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

RIstream said:


> We kindly let the tech know that while we appreciated her opinion, we'd talk to the vet and wait. She pushed a bit more and we let the vet know. It hasn't happened again.


Good!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> One of my biggest regrets is neutering both my dogs early. I trusted the vet blindly and followed their advice. I know better now. They both have huge strikes against them and I cannot take that back. I have tried to make up for it with diet and avoiding toxins/vaccines which is about all I can do at this point. So far they are healthy at age 11 so I consider myself lucky so far. But the odds are against them.


I think all you can d is the best you can with the information you have at the time. Kodi is 10 1/2, and like you, I thought I was doing the very best thing for him by having him neutered at 7 months. It horrifies me now!

Pixel is almost 5, and she was spayed at 17 months, after her first heat. In her case, a VERY dramatic false pregnancy (nesting, labor, "puppies" (stuffed animals), milk... the whole nine yards!) made me VERY sure that I didn't want to put ANY of us through THAT experience again! LOL! Had she not done THAT, I might have put off spaying her for longer. I'm not sure. But I DO know that even 5 years ago, I would not have let anyone push me into early spay/neuter, and I know that Pixel and Kodi's breeder had also changed her thinking on the whole subject as well.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> I think all you can d is the best you can with the information you have at the time. Kodi is 10 1/2, and like you, I thought I was doing the very best thing for him by having him neutered at 7 months. It horrifies me now!
> 
> Pixel is almost 5, and she was spayed at 17 months, after her first heat. In her case, a VERY dramatic false pregnancy (nesting, labor, "puppies" (stuffed animals), milk... the whole nine yards!) made me VERY sure that I didn't want to put ANY of us through THAT experience again! LOL! Had she not done THAT, I might have put off spaying her for longer. I'm not sure. But I DO know that even 5 years ago, I would not have let anyone push me into early spay/neuter, and I know that Pixel and Kodi's breeder had also changed her thinking on the whole subject as well.


Great point Karen. All we can do is our best with the information we have at the time. The information often changes and it is sometimes hard to know who to believe. The important thing is to keep trying to do our best.


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## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

I’m neutering at 12 months. I have until 18 months as per the contract, but I’m about done with those horrormones. My vet keeps pushing me to do it now (including asking me twice when we were planning his dental surgery) and says that small breeds are done growing by 7 months. But it’s only a few months more, so I’d rather wait. I’ll probably book it for the day after his birthday. Getting neutered on his birthday just seems cruel.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> What is everyones experience/thoughts on the best age to get your pup neutered?


This is a question that should be discussed with your trusted Vet! Opinions on the Internet are nothing more than OPINIONS. There is no one right answer.

For the record, Ricky Ricardo was neutered at the age of 10 months on advice of his Vet. The Vet might have made a different recommendation for a different dog.

Ricky's Popi


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> This is a question that should be discussed with your trusted Vet! Opinions on the Internet are nothing more than OPINIONS. There is no one right answer.
> 
> For the record, Ricky Ricardo was neutered at the age of 10 months on advice of his Vet. The Vet might have made a different recommendation for a different dog.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


I trusted my vet who said each of my dogs should be spayed/neutered at six months. I do not think this was good advice. I agree that a person should not take random advice on the internet, but unfortunately you may not get good advice from a vet on this subject either.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

mudpuppymama said:


> I trusted my vet who said each of my dogs should be spayed/neutered at six months. I do not think this was good advice. I agree that a person should not take random advice on the internet, but unfortunately you may not get good advice from a vet on this subject either.


If you don't have confidence in your Vet, in my opinion, you should change Vets.

EDIT: Ricky's Vet said that he sometimes recommends neutering as young as six months.......depending.... on specific anatomy, maturation rate, breed of dog, and various specifics to the dog. These decisions are a result of the study to become a Vet. If you doubt your Vet's advice, you can always get a second opinion.

In my opinion, it is injudicious to rely on non-professional opinions on the Internet with questionable "research" rather than a professional who has significant education and experience.

Ricky's Popi


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> If you don't have confidence in your Vet, in my opinion, you should change Vets.
> 
> EDIT: Ricky's Vet said that he sometimes recommends neutering as young as six months.......depending.... on specific anatomy, maturation rate, breed of dog, and various specifics to the dog. These decisions are a result of the study to become a Vet. If you doubt your Vet's advice, you can always get a second opinion.
> 
> ...


Getting opinions from respected people you know via the internet is a good thing IMO. Following advice blindly is not a good idea whether it comes from the internet or elsewhere. Everyone needs to weigh information along with the source and determine what is best for them. A vet who does not discuss both the pros and CONS of neutering should not be trusted on this subject. That is where I made my mistake...I did not know this and did not know enough to question the advice given. Others may be in this same boat and some very respected people here on this forum are trying to alert them to that and have even guided them to sources to help them make that decision. They are not trying to tell anyone what to do.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

MPM, my Vet agrees with you, in general. He did discuss with me the pros and cons of neutering Ricky at 10 months. But his recommendation was to have him neutered at that age after an in depth and careful anatomical examination. His conclusion was that CCL problems TEND to be specific to large breed dogs, not small breed dogs. In general, Havanese TEND to be one of the healthier breeds with fewer anatomical and physiological problems. He gave a thorough, hands on, anatomical examination of Ricky. His conclusion was that Ricky was uncommonly sturdy for his sturdy Havanese breed. Ricky had experienced occasional Cryptorchidism as a puppy. Ricky had problems with being house broken at 10 months when he came to live with us (but that may have been a problem with his previous owner, a breeder, who kept him in a cage all day while she worked a 40 hour per week outside job). My Vet's conclusion and recommendation was that the risks to waiting to neuter Ricky at a later age FAR OUTWEIGHED the risks to neutering him sooner. I agreed with his logic, and it was my decision. He might have made a different recommendation for another Havanese,

Today, Ricky would rather explode than eliminate inside the house. Tonight he came to me as I was watching a documentary on TV, got in my my face, and let me know he had to poop, like RIGHT NOW! and outside we went (I don't believe in doggie doors in our coyote threat neighborhood . Ricky NEVER goes outside unless I am "eyes on." Your experience may be different) Even though neutered, he has a healthy libido (well he is a Cuban after all). So in Ricky's case, I feel I made the right decision. With a different dog I might have made a different decision. IT JUST DEPENDS. There is no one right answer.

So yes, I recommend you get opinions about what to ask your trusted Vet about spay/neuter. And then you make the decision because every situation is different. But in my opinion, you should never accept ultimatums on the Internet that ALL dogs should never be neutered before a certain age without doing your own due diligence.

Ricky's Popi



mudpuppymama said:


> Getting opinions from respected people you know via the internet is a good thing IMO. Following advice blindly is not a good idea whether it comes from the internet or elsewhere. Everyone needs to weigh information along with the source and determine what is best for them. A vet who does not discuss both the pros and CONS of neutering should not be trusted on this subject. That is where I made my mistake...I did not know this and did not know enough to question the advice given. Others may be in this same boat and some very respected people here on this forum are trying to alert them to that and have even guided them to sources to help them make that decision. They are not trying to tell anyone what to do.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> MPM, my Vet agrees with you, in general. He did discuss with me the pros and cons of neutering Ricky at 10 months. But his recommendation was to have him neutered at that age after an in depth and careful anatomical examination. His conclusion was that CCL problems TEND to be specific to large breed dogs, not small breed dogs. In general, Havanese TEND to be one of the healthier breeds with fewer anatomical and physiological problems. He gave a thorough, hands on, anatomical examination of Ricky. His conclusion was that Ricky was uncommonly sturdy for his sturdy Havanese breed. Ricky had experienced occasional Cryptorchidism as a puppy. Ricky had problems with being house broken at 10 months when he came to live with us (but that may have been a problem with his previous owner, a breeder, who kept him in a cage all day while she worked a 40 hour per week outside job). My Vet's conclusion and recommendation was that the risks to waiting to neuter Ricky at a later age FAR OUTWEIGHED the risks to neutering him sooner. I agreed with his logic, and it was my decision. He might have made a different recommendation for another Havanese,
> 
> Today, Ricky would rather explode than eliminate inside the house. Tonight he came to me as I was watching a documentary on TV, got in my my face, and let me know he had to poop, like RIGHT NOW! and outside we went (I don't believe in doggie doors in our coyote threat neighborhood . Ricky NEVER goes outside unless I am "eyes on." Your experience may be different) Even though neutered, he has a healthy libido (well he is a Cuban after all). So in Ricky's case, I feel I made the right decision. With a different dog I might have made a different decision. IT JUST DEPENDS. There is no one right answer.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you were fortunate to find a vet willing to openly discuss the pros and CONS of neutering and work WITH YOU to make an informed decision. That is all anyone can ask for. I guess the takeaway is...if you have a vet that is NOT willing to do this...RUN!!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Wulfin said:


> I'll probably book it for the day after his birthday. Getting neutered on his birthday just seems cruel.


LOL!

Yeah, boys can be... trying!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> If you don't have confidence in your Vet, in my opinion, you should change Vets.
> 
> EDIT: Ricky's Vet said that he sometimes recommends neutering as young as six months.......depending.... on specific anatomy, maturation rate, breed of dog, and various specifics to the dog. These decisions are a result of the study to become a Vet. If you doubt your Vet's advice, you can always get a second opinion.
> 
> ...


The problem is there is a WIDE range of "professional opinion on when is the appropriate age to spay/neuter. I am all for working close with and developing a good relationship with your vet. If I didn't trust my vet, I would CERTAINLY move on. I ALSO trust my vet to be willing to have an adult conversation about pros and cons and RISK ANALYSIS. There are no certainties in medicine. And the bottom line is that it should be up to the individual owner to make these decisions, certainly after discussion with their vet. (not, with the vet tech  )

Yes, depending on where you live, you might be able to "cherry pick" and move around until you find a vet whose ideas EXACTLY align with your own. More often, people have fewer options for vets. What I WOULD expect from a vet practice is that in an instance where there is clear evidence both for and against a non-urgent procedure, that the vet give their input, then allow me to make my own, informed decision.

The funny thing is, that in emergecy situations, I have almost always find that vets give the owner the final decision. they NEVER "push" a decision on you. At our university ER, when Kodi was there with his obstruction, and I was given options and was unsure what to do, and they were (unhelpfully to my stressed-out and over-tired brain) not swaying me in any direction at all, I finally said, "If this were YOUR dog, what would YOU do? That got me an answer that I could go forward with. 

Yet, many (not all) vets will be pretty forceful about spay/neuter decisions, ONLY presenting facts (without breed-specific statistics, and that matters quite a bit) that support their side of the argument, and not presenting any of the counter-arguments.

That said, as I said in my very first response, I DO think "it depends", and ABSOLUTELY needs to be made on a case-by-case basis. And NO ONE should feel bad about their decision one way or the other. Certainly, there can be complicating factors that make early neuter a better option. As a fer-instance, say a male puppy has a large hernia that needs to be repaired, and will need to be anesthetized for that anyway. Do you really want to anesthetize him again a few months later to neuter him? I'd have to have a long talk with the surgeon and anesthesiologist about the risk analysis THERE before making that call. It might make more sense to do both surgeries at once. If the puppy had one (or both) retained testicles? It seems like it would be a no-brainer not to do two separate abdominal surgeries...

Some people HAVE to use doggie daycare or they can't HAVE a dog. Most doggie daycares won't accept a puppy over a certain age that is not spayed/neutered. Should we make someone feel bad because they need to spay/neuter their dog before that age? Of course not!

DO do your homework and make a THOUGHTFUL decision, though. Not just because a vet tells you to do it at a specific age. I would hope that when you go to a doctor, you have an adult conversation with that doctor, asking questions, talking about risks, benefits, alternatives, etc. Asking, if necessary, for a second opinion on a major non-urgent surgical procedure. Why would you just blindly follow the advice of a vet in the same circumstances on what is NOT minor surgery, (although it is routinely portrayed that way, even though a human would CERTAINLY not consider being turned into a eunuch as "minor surgery") but robs the animal of the benefit of all sex hormones for the rest of their lives?


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## PNWAlan (Oct 9, 2018)

Yeah, what she said!

I didn't want to quote your whole post Karen, but as you often do, you expressed my thoughts exactly but much more eloquently than I ever could. 

Things are very slowly changing but for now we have to live with Vets that are throughly indoctrinated in the 6 month old neuter/spay, raw food is deadly, vaccinate with every vaccine out there with yearly boosters, Hill's Science Diet is the best thing going philosophy. Some, if not most of these are otherwise very competent doctors. Actually who can blame them when these same ideas have been drilled into them for eight years or more? The information is out there. You just have to be willing to expend the effort to look for actual research and statistics not just forum chatter. 

Maybe because I concentrated on holistic/integrative Vets I have been able to find Vets who are willing to listen to my concerns and discuss Skye's care. Not just tell me what they are going to do. I have avoided Banfield and VCA like the plague so have never felt pushed into anything.

.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I completely agree with not blindly following internet advice, but I think the point of these forums and other online information is to provide a wide variety of perspectives that can potentially lead to a more educated and in depth discussion with the vet. Things change, new studies come out. I don’t believe my vet to know everything on some of these in depth topics regarding new research, especially if it’s breed specific, but I would hope that like a good doctor a good vet would listen! Or say, Let me confer with or refer you for a consultation with a specialist.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2018)

The breeder suggested letting my pup mature to past age 1 before neutering. She said it helps them grow properly. Then asked if I would take him to see her at 6 months and consider showing him. 

My vet said they refer to wait until after 1 yo for neutering and spaying. I was asking our group because I have read a lot of conflict information in trying to research this topic. i do not like to follow blindly and all of you have some experience in this matter.

Thank you for your input. It is much appreciated.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> The breeder suggested letting my pup mature to past age 1 before neutering. She said it helps them grow properly. Then asked if I would take him to see her at 6 months and consider showing him.
> 
> My vet said they refer to wait until after 1 yo for neutering and spaying. I was asking our group because I have read a lot of conflict information in trying to research this topic. i do not like to follow blindly and all of you have some experience in this matter.
> 
> Thank you for your input. It is much appreciated.


Love your vet!!!


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