# Conformation & Contracts



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Okay as I am doing my research (thinking of playing in the conformation ring with the next puppy!) what is a normal contract for a puppy? I know this can completely vary but what would be the ideal contract?

Sorry, I just read about these scary situations-not giving dog back, promising litters, etc. I just want to make sure I get a decent contract!

Amanda


----------



## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

I really do not know about the Havanese show breeders, but in general what is acceptable to you is a good contract. I personally would never pay full price for a show hopeful puppy and have any strings attached. For a discounted price, some breeders want a puppy back, co-ownership, stud rights, etc. any of that would be fine if that is what works for you 

I find it interesting that, I have been offered three dogs in the few weeks I have been showing Smarty. These are dogs that breeders want to get into good show homes. Most breeders, in any breed, keep their best puppies in the hopes of finishing them. Once the breeder has more dogs than they can afford to show or keep, they look for good homes where they will be shown. One dog was offered with no money, co-ownership until finished and limited stud rights back to the breeder. Great deal, I’m just not looking for another dog.

I was surprise to learn that a “guaranteed show puppy” is just guaranteed not to have a disqualifying fault. The Havanese Standard has very few disqualifying faults. If I were buying a show puppy, for a show price I would want more of a guarantee than that.

Kimberly, Tom, Greg and the other breeders on the forum should be able to guide you in the right direction.


----------



## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

It all depends on the breeder and what you are willing to do to have that puppy. And some want $$ plus first pick of a puppy others say if you pay a show price that is all you do is pay the price of the puppy its all up to the breeder you pick the number one thing is making sure the parents of the puppy you want has been tested for every thing so important and if you can not see them in person for what ever reason and even if you do get SOAP pictures too make sure the parents and the puppy you want you check out the right web sites for the testing on the parents of the and see what the parents has produce do the parents produce pet puppys mostly or are they producing champaine puppy . I have learned so much here And what will the breeder do for you if something happens to the puppy that is genic will they take the puppy back and give you the oppion to replace or money back things to look into I hope this helps I am sure there are breeders here that can give better advise than me good luck and I hope you get what you truly want.


----------



## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

ama0722 said:


> Okay as I am doing my research (thinking of playing in the conformation ring with the next puppy!) what is a normal contract for a puppy? I know this can completely vary but what would be the ideal contract?
> 
> Sorry, I just read about these scary situations-not giving dog back, promising litters, etc. I just want to make sure I get a decent contract!
> 
> Amanda


Amanda,
My rule is to treat people the way you want to be treated. That goes for my contracts. I don't expect from my puppy buyers anything more then what I would want in a puppy contract.

For my show puppies, I typically co-own until the dog is finished and has had all health testing completed. If it is a male, I might want to be able to use that male for a stud sometime in the future, so I would retain that right. In a bitch, I might want 2nd pick puppy back out of a litter that the owner and I mutually decide on the stud. These are just some options, nothing is etched in stone and each contract can be different, depending on the dog, owner, etc.

So, if you feel ok with it, then it is ok is really the bottom line. Trust is important to me and for the buyer.


----------



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Thanks! 

I have a few friends from the all breed club that have other breeds that were locked into some scary contracts. They have dogs from breeders- both bitches, that they were required to breed many times, the breeder got half the puppies of the litter, etc. One had her stud shipped so many times, her head was spinning! I really think if that is what it takes, I can't do that!

I think since I am totally new to the show dog side of things and I want try the handling myself, I am going to definitely be picky about the contract  I want a pet first and if we have fun in the ring (hey-agility and obedience too!) great!!!

Thanks for your opinions!

Amanda


----------



## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

Kathy said:


> For my show puppies, I typically co-own until the dog is finished and has had all health testing completed.


Amanda,

My show puppy I just purchased had a co-owned until the dog is finished and has had all health testing completed.


----------



## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Sorry I can’t help Amanda but wanted to wish you luck. I think you would do great in the ring and most show pups seem to have a lot of confidence which will also be great for agility after.


----------



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Thanks you two! I am just learning more about the type of contracts. I think I am understanding the different types of contracts you can be involved in and what seems like a better idea for me!

Lynn- I don't know if this is too personal, but you can just not answer if it is! Does your contract say how many times you must breed the dog? That is the kind of contract I am scared of! I don't want to be locked in, sometimes a puppy doesn't turn out show quality down the road, etc. 

Leeann-that is my goal, I know I love the agility ring! Dora is quite submissive so while she does well in agility now when I can run with her (not a pretty site!), as things get more complicated, she is less likely in personality to leave me... probably why she does well in obedience, always at my side! It is just her nature. Where as my maltese, is so confident, she ditches me.... apparently I am not cool to hang with!

Amanda


----------



## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

I agree with Kathy, a good contract is one that you and the breeder are happy and comfortable with. 

Just one more thing to add. Make sure everything is in writting, don't rely on verbal agreements, insist that all terms are written clearly with no "fine print".

Have you convinced your hubby that you NEED a puppy yet????


----------



## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

ama0722 said:


> Amanda
> 
> Lynn- I don't know if this is too personal, but you can just not answer if it is! Does your contract say how many times you must breed the dog? That is the kind of contract I am scared of! I don't want to be locked in, sometimes a puppy doesn't turn out show quality down the road, etc.
> 
> Amanda


Hi Amanda,
No the contract didn't say how many times I must breed the dog. I am like you I don't want to be locked in to anything. I am not sure I am going to like showing, and I am not really wanting to breed the dog. I just wanted to be able to show her. If she turns out to be a great dog that should be breed than I will address the situation then.

All I know now is I like to take dog classes and I have extra time, since my daughter is grown and I am looking for something I really like to do.

Just plan to send time to shop around for a dog and breeder. My breeder shows her dogs and I got to watch her this weekend at a show. I was really impressed, she is good. Her dogs got Best of Show, and Best of Breed both days.


----------



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Lynn- Thanks for your thoughts! I am thinking the same way!

Debbie-YES, after I met Tori (ofcourse, I was crazy!), we spent the night talking about it! I want to wait till spring as Jim would be completely off work to help with potty training. He also said we have to be more settled in! I need to also do a lot more research which I am working on!

Amanda


----------



## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

Great News Amanda, I'm so happy for you. Good luck searching for the right pup.


----------



## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

My show-girls contract is a co-ownership until she finished her championship and was fully health tested. Then the breeder gets a puppy back from the litter (she picked the stud) and signs off the co-ownership. (although we only had one puppy so I am not sure what happens now). With Jester, I bought him outright. I have no co-ownership with his breeder, the contract states I will show him to his championship and do all the health testing. There is no stud-back fee's or puppy back. I have an awesome relationship with his breeder, and I appreciate her simple contract. 
There are some crazy contracts out there, so keep your eyes open! When I was looking for a male puppy, I came across some craaaaazy breeders. One lady wanted me to sign a contract that she would co-own, I finish him, THEN Special him for 2 years!!! And she wanted unlimited stud rights. Now that is just crazy. How can you determine at 9 weeks old that the puppy will be nice enough to Special? And to require it in a contract? I don't think so! I have seen the puppy since then, and he didn't turn out all that great anyway.
Best of luck on your search! If you don't feel comfortable with the contract, then don't get that puppy~~


----------



## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

ama0722 said:


> Lynn- Thanks for your thoughts! I am thinking the same way!
> 
> Debbie-YES, after I met Tori (ofcourse, I was crazy!), we spent the night talking about it! I want to wait till spring as Jim would be completely off work to help with potty training. He also said we have to be more settled in! I need to also do a lot more research which I am working on!
> 
> Amanda


:whoo: Something for us all to look forward to in the spring Amanda getting a new baby. Good luck Amanda I cant wait to hear all about your search as you go :whoo:


----------



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Katie- That sounds like a crazy contract and I think I just needed to know if that is how it is or if you can find normal contracts! I think obviously, if I had a great relationship, puppy back or stud, etc is no problem. I would expect the breeder to let me know a good stud as hopefully it is their lines and they know them inside and out!

I think ideally, I would like to completely handle myself and if it is specials quality (doesn't everyone wish for that!) I could play in that ring further down the road. 

I think I am going to complicate things thought because my first love is performance. I have so much fun playing the yard with Dora and then the challenge of teaching her new things. Then going and trying to play the game in the ring! I love love love agility but Dora does have limitations in this area as she is shy in nature but we are gonna keep trying new things!

Leeann- I want an attitude like Riley's so keep your eyes open for me! I was just telling Leslie at her house the other night, him playing with the ball... I am going to fly out there and take him and the ball out of your backyard!

Amanda


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

We don't look for and have never looked for show homes. The few dogs we have sold to show homes were to people we know. Show contracts are private treaty to our friends who have a record in the breed. In 10 years we have sold no more than 4 or 5 dogs to a show home other than our own. To us, it means little to have x number of champions. We know what we produce.


----------



## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Tom, if you require a record in the breed does that mean you won't sell a show pup to someone who wants to begin showing? Everyone has to start somewhere........I'm confused. What about mentoring?

Susan


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I know. I was wondering how a novice gets into this? I guess one needs to be relatively connected? OR start breeding! lol, I have talked to a few people about this before, but don't most breeders KEEP their really strong dogs that will do well in the ring?
Kara


----------



## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

ama0722 said:


> Leeann- I want an attitude like Riley's so keep your eyes open for me! I was just telling Leslie at her house the other night, him playing with the ball... I am going to fly out there and take him and the ball out of your backyard!
> 
> Amanda


Oh goodie, you can send him back after you teach him it is O.K. for me to cross behind him when he enters the tunnel. Thanks so much for offering to help..:biggrin1:


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

quote: "Tom, if you require a record in the breed does that mean you won't sell a show pup to someone who wants to begin showing?"

We have done it, but only in special circumstances. There is a lot of hand holding necessary and we just don't have the time. Andy Hunt had not shown a dog before we sold him one but he has turned out to be a great friend and a real benefit to the breed as we thought he would. 

But never a female to start with. Most people who inquire want to start breeding and so far no one has come up with a good enough reason for us to let them start breeding.


----------



## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Is that really why people want to start showing, so that they can start breeding? I honestly didn't know that. I would have thought that breeding would be secondary to showing since breeding is so intense. I learn something new every day.

Thanks Tom,

Susan


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

You have to have an Unlimited registration with AKC to show or breed.


----------



## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

Tom King said:


> You have to have an Unlimited registration with AKC to show or breed.


The rules in Canada are different. If your dog has a CKC registration number and is unaltered you can show in a conformation show. I didn't realize that you needed a unlimited Registration with the AKC to show. Good to know.


----------



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

As to what Tom said-That makes sense on the co-ownership until the dog is finished as well! If you were a breeder and wanted to make sure the person you are mentoring is serious, co-own the dog until it has at least finished his/her championship so that way you know the dog is within standard before being bred and then wait, etc.

Susan, I may be naive and think more like you! I have fun showing both my girls in the performance venue, who knows... maybe I don't get a show dog if I wouldn't be considered serious enough or not doing it for the right reason! Interesting to hear different opinions. But everyone does have to start somewhere!


----------



## Carol (Jun 18, 2007)

Amanda, I'm getting my show prospect from a breeder local to me who I became friends with well before the puppies were born. We went through the breeding, pregnancy and whelping and the weeks following until the puppy is ready for her new home. I am so fourtunate that not only is my breeder wonderful and a dear friend and mentor, but I have made a couple of friends at shows in the area who I can also look to for advice. I want this to be fun for the pup and for me!


----------



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Carol,
Thanks that is the ideal situation! I just relocated a few thousand miles and there are lot more active show breeders in this area. Good luck and keep us posted!

Amanda


----------



## MagicLady (Feb 19, 2007)

Amanda and Lynn,

I felt exactly like you before purchasing my puppy. I wasn't sure I wanted to show him and didn't want to be locked into any contract that required me to ship him back and forth for stud. I looked first at breeders near me in hopes of avoiding unnecessary travel for stud, then looked closely at the contract. 

The biggest thing you should be concerned with is health testing of not only the parents, but the entire breeding program, if possible. The breeder should be willing, in fact offer, to show you soaped pictures of the parents. The health portion of the contract should state the parents have had all health testing done. You should be able to review the results of those tests.

My breeder had the least restrictive contract of any that I found. I had full ownership (rare to get that for a "show" prospect), no stud requirements. The health testing on the parents was all done, soaped pics., etc.. I had to agree to show him to Championship before breeding him, not to breed before age 2 and to have all health testing done. My contract allows me to return him at any time during his entire life for any reason for a full refund. 

I agree with all the others...the contract should be agreeable to both of you. If you are not happy with it, or the breeder, walk away. Also, don't forget that no one can guarantee a puppy will be a show dog, so be prepared for that possibility. Don't forget that there are breeders out there who are only interested in money, puppy mills, backyard breeders (some of whom are wonderful, nice people who know nothing at all about breeding and just breed their bitch to anyone with a male) and those folks, nice or not, will tell you anything you want to hear....just try making them live up to it.

A friend of mine has sent her dog back to the breeder 3 times already for stud service. All three times he came back sick. He (so the breeder says) has not produced any puppies although the bitch had a litter of 5....woops...she accidently got bred with one of her other dogs. My friend is not sending her dog back to the breeder again!

Good luck....take your time...get a good, reputable breeder and as non-restrictive contract as possible.

Carol


----------



## abuelashavanese (Mar 26, 2007)

jerseygirl said:


> Amanda, I'm getting my show prospect from a breeder local to me who I became friends with well before the puppies were born. We went through the breeding, pregnancy and whelping and the weeks following until the puppy is ready for her new home. I am so fourtunate that not only is my breeder wonderful and a dear friend and mentor, but I have made a couple of friends at shows in the area who I can also look to for advice. I want this to be fun for the pup and for me!


PERFECT!!! This is what it is about. It should be a fun and friendly venture for both you and your dog.

Good luck in the ring and enjoy all of your new friends


----------



## Janizona (Oct 17, 2006)

*contracts*

There are so many breeders with different contracts that I'm not able to answer that question for anyone other than myself.

I sell pets and show prospects at the same price. I co-own until the dog is finished and has completed all health testing. I require annual cerfs and hips/patellas done. Occasionally I will ask for one puppy back but in all the years I've only done it 4 times. I hold stud rights on the boys for a few breedings.

I would RUN from any breeder that is trying to gain financially from your pup. Multiple puppies or multiple litters back is so wrong on so many levels! Make sure its all in writing. Don't agree to breed if you don't want to do that. Check references of puppy owners, pet and show. I'd ask for references from a pup owner that has an "issue" with their pup to see what kind of support the breeder has given. And of course make sure the breeder does all the health testing and has a health guarantee for your puppy should something go wrong. An ideal contract is the one that makes you say YES, this is a great thing for me, for my puppy and for the Havanese breed.

Hope this helps!

Janet Hicks



ama0722 said:


> Okay as I am doing my research (thinking of playing in the conformation ring with the next puppy!) what is a normal contract for a puppy? I know this can completely vary but what would be the ideal contract?
> 
> Sorry, I just read about these scary situations-not giving dog back, promising litters, etc. I just want to make sure I get a decent contract!
> 
> Amanda


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Carol,

You are very lucky to have that contract! I've been contemplating lately getting a "show" dog, but the thought of a co-ownership scares me off a little. I've seen and heard of co-ownerships that have gone awry! Backstabbing, usery, "stealing: the dog or holding it hostage..etc. I wouldn't want to feel "used", Mentoring, would be *ideal*...in a perfect world, there would be good, honest breeders like those on here.... everywhere, but some of breeders out there...just crawled out from under a rock. LOL

Kara


----------



## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

I guess I'm still confused. 
Breeders say that they do not breed dogs in order to provide people with pets. Okay, I understand that. However, Tom's note seems to indicate that people do get into showing so that they can get into breeding. 
I thought it was the other way around. People first fall in love with the whole dog show process, training, traveling to shows, walking around the ring, competition, the whole show atmosphere. When they have a champion dog then they decide if they truly want to get into breeding, after all, it's not a money making venture (unless you all are telling fibs and really do have mansions in the islands!). 
Do I have it backwards and people decide one day that they want to get into dog breeding and figure that the way to do that is to go the conformation route first. I suppose it gets to motivation. What motivates you, the urge to compete or the urge to have puppies?

Susan


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Susan,

I think it varies, but one thing I always wonder...do the breeders want to "KEEP" the dogs that are the big winners? Naturally, I would assume they would.

SO...I think people can get motivated to breed so they can get breed thier own big "winner". I think they feed off of each other, so to speak.

Which brings me to my ultimate question: If I want a show quality dog, a really GREAT one...what are my chances of getting one without having to breed it myself? LOL, won't the breeders keep them?

Its a little bit confusing!

Kara


----------



## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

After what i heard about the dog Noah if and when you do have a agreement i would have a lawyer take a look at it .
it seems like there are some gaps in comprehension and understanding and also unreasonable expectations .
it makes me sad when the dog is a victim .


----------



## Janizona (Oct 17, 2006)

*breeding for pets?*

I never say that! I breed for pets first, and place very few of my pups in show homes. It's way too stressful for me to place show pups and I really have to know the person and feel comfortable with their intentions. Generally an inquiry for a show pup means they want to breed also and that is why we put age and health testing requirements in the contract.

We breed PET Havanese, not pet quality Havanese. What's the difference? Many of our "pets" have excellent show potential. Many exhibit beautiful breed type, coat, and temperment. That doesn't mean they will go to a show home but they will go to a loving pet home!

I am very cautious about placing my pups in "breeding" homes. I would love to have someone ask about a pup for show or performance without the goal of breeding! =)

I believe if we as breeders don't place our pups in pet homes that they will be forced to buy from pet shops or mills.

Janet Hicks
Janizona Havanese


----------



## Sunnygirl (Jun 1, 2007)

My breeder uses a single contract for pets and show prospects which has certain provisions that apply only to the show prospects. I just looked at it to see what the extra provisions are, and they seem pretty reasonable.
1. You have to complete (and pass) all health testing as recommended by HCA and HEART (this was pre-HSD split) before breeding.
2. You have to finish the pup to its championship before breeding.
3. For bitches only, co-ownership until the health testing and championship are done.

There is a premium paid for a show prospect, and the contract also provides that the breeder will refund the excess over the pet price if either the dog cannot win from at least 15 conformation shows or it becomes structurally unsound, provided proof of spay/neuter is provided, and in addition she will sell you another show prospect for 1/2 of show price.


----------



## abuelashavanese (Mar 26, 2007)

I have purchased three show dogs in the past four years. Two of which we have now championed and the third we are working on. The first havanese we bought did not have a written contract. We have full AKC registration. We had also developed a strong relationship with the breeders prior to our puppy arriving and still maintain that friendship today. 

Our second and third dogs had a co-owner clause. The contract required us to finish their championship (or within a few points) before the ownership was changed to our name only. When our girl, EVIE, earned 13 points in the ring her breeder changed the ownership as promised. Our breeder did retain stud options on our boy. But, there is not a puppy or litter requirement by the breeder. The contract also contains standard provisions including a health guarantee and return policy. A Breeder Contract is necessary to help protect our breed from abusive breeding. It is their only legal avenue to assure AKC registration rights on future litters. 

This contract arrangement has worked well for us. Additionally, the friendship developed with our breeders has superseded our expectations. I guess this is one of those things that you just have to feel good about before making your commitment. Be sure and get all of your questions answered by your breeder and know you have made the right choice. Good Luck! 

Showing dogs is a SPORT. Conformation showing is judging your dog against the breed standard as compared to the other dogs in the ring. It gives you a standard to evaluate and a status for breeding. But breeding is still in a completely different arena.


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

This thread is fascinating!

I get the impression that anyone that wants to start breeding (for noble reasons) would pretty much have to be able to "part water like Jesus" to be welcomed into it. And those that have an interest in showing have a very hard time getting into it! We love to travel, we love "dog" people, our kids are getting older, we have a little money to throw around and enjoy! Showing would be great for us, we aren't very good at golf! ound: 

I have 7 kids! Breeding is not on my agenda! 

But every breeder on here has a beginning. Someone, at some point, entrusted you all to breed ethically and make the right decision regarding the breed. And I know we are all thankful for those of you that do! 

Kara


----------



## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

I think intentions all depend on the person. I approached a breeder about getting a show dog because I though it would be fun to do. Before I did this I went to the national to learn as much about the breed as I could, beyond what I could research at home. When I contacted the breeder I told them that I was interested in getting not only a show pup but also a mentor. As this is new to me I wanted to make sure I had someone willing to show me the ropes or it wouldn't be worth it. I personally love the idea of showing and am terrified by the idea of breeding! I think there is a lot of hard work and understanding that go into breeding dogs. My biggest fear...making sure the dogs had great homes. I can't imagine what it must be like to give up one of your dogs and then have to hope that you did enough research to feel it went to a home that will treat it right. Does every dog that finishes need to be bred? Not in my opinion. If it was a great dog that had something to offer the breed then maybe. This is where a great mentor comes in to help a person make those decisions. Hopefully people new to showing/breeding are able to find a knowledgable, supportive, and trustworthy breeder to help them along their journey.


----------



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Jonda and Janet, Thanks for your prospectives as well. I think what is obvious, is there are different breeders out there- some want to see their lines carried on producing the best dogs for the future, some want to produce great pet puppies, some are willing to mix both types of goals, etc. They have different focuses and that is probably good as they all get measured against each other in the ring to hopefully produce a great breed-personality, health, and looks.

That is where I am coming from... not even thinking about breeding. Not sure if that is the right attitude but who knows, if i get a pup that turns out to not be breeding quality, I am not likely to send the puppy back so I am not interested in that type of contract either. Both my girls are pets, my next dog will also be pet first. If it does great in the show ring, you bet I would love to show at one of the big shows! Then if we decide to have puppies down the road great and if not, that would also be fine too. 

But I probably wouldn't send back a puppy, I have bonded with for 6 months either-maybe if bad health but I would truly have to know it would be in a better home. 

I am sure I will find the right contract for me and the right breeder. I am pretty patient and Dora and I are still having fun in the obedience, agility, rally ring (sometimes with the maltese... depends on what day you ask me!)

Amanda


----------



## abuelashavanese (Mar 26, 2007)

When I was evaluating all of the different possibilities of which Havanese was right for me, I took a long and serious study of the different breeder lines. Different lines can and will project a different look of the Havanese. There are some breeders that produce dogs with certain coat type, face type, legs and etc. They have goals in their breeding programs that are reflected in their lines. 

My advice is for you to consider what you are most attracted to and what you think represents your vision of the perfect havanese. Read and re-read the Havanese standard posted on the HCA website. Go to as many AKC shows as possible and talk to the breeders in person. Decide if the breeder will bridge a positive relationship. It is an investment both financially and physically for your family, but it can be very rewarding when you make the right choice. 

I didn’t mention the health testing….. we all know it should be done


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Jonda,

I was planning on attending some shows here on the East Coast. I've asked a few breeders this already, but the more opinions I have, the better.

Is it true that in certain areas, certain "looks" do better? I mean, here on the East Coast would I be safer going with breeders that have dogs winning here? I wonder what type of gamble I would be taking with a dog from a different region? Yes, there are different looks, and I do know what *I* like, but what do the judges here like? lol, 

Amanda...it just keeps getting more complicated for us, ehh? LOL

Granted, most of the Havanese that were showing here in Virginia are now with the HSD, and I assume they are no longer showing in AKC events? (Please I DO not want to open an argument, I'm being speculative) SO, in a sense...I think its a great opportunity for us to start. I just wonder whether to gamble with a line that is not predominant here, or to stick with the 'known' east coast winners? hmm..

Kara


----------



## abuelashavanese (Mar 26, 2007)

Kara,

First of all, you know I think Gucci is an incredibly beautiful girl. You have great taste when it comes to selecting the look of a havanese. MoJo thinks so too.

Everyday in the show ring is a different day - different judge. Judges also have certain looks they prefer and will judge accordingly. But, the Havanese Standard is designed to help keep the judges and breeders heading towards a common goal. _ (Perfect World) _ That's why I went with my heart and selected what I felt was the best to my vision and most importantly I am very proud of my dogs both _in and out _of the ring!


----------



## CacheHavs (Aug 2, 2007)

I have been reading this thread, and have decided to speak for myself.
Like many of you and the breeders here, I had to start somewhere. I have been in dogs for about 30+-years. I started out with Australian Shepherds, then few other breed in between and then went back to my Aussies for the past 14 years. 

The one thing that was the most aggravating was the fact that "Breeders" would always hang onto the best. Now there is nothing wrong with that, but by doing that I feel that it makes the new comer feel as though they spend all this money & time to then find out that they were given less than an Adequate dog that we all know would probably never finish their championship. I know because when I started back with my Aussies, the breeders kept giving me stuff that they themselves would never keep. 

After the fist 4 or 5 years I finally made friends with a breeder who had very nice dogs, and thanks to her she gave me the start I needed. Then due to some health problems I started looking for a smaller breed to get into (as I still love to compete and am unable to do it with my Aussies as my physical health does not allow.) I found the havanese and fell in-love. I met a breeder whom I thought we gained an honest understanding, we got our puppy, we raised her showed her and loved her, then when the breeder felt she wanted her back we lost her. Long story short never make a verbal contract, make sure EVERYTHING is in writing. 

I also dislike contracts that state that a breeder gets one or two or even a whole litter back out of a female that they sell for xx amount of dollars and take and sell those puppies now for the same xx amount of dollars. Now the dog just became 2,3,4 times the amount, when in fact they can't guarantee that, that dog will be a good contributor to the breed. The only thing in my contract is I reserve the right to two breedings if it is a boy, and in all the years that I have done breeding I may have done that once.

My belief is if you want to be considered as a good & honest breeder, that we should be sending out our better stuff & mentoring, to the new people that are wanting to give it a shot. I know for myself that I can't keep every dog I've bred nor can I afford to due them all justice. I keep in very close contact with all my puppy buyers to help educate them and mentor anytime they need it. But I also believe that we should not dictate what they can and can not do with their dogs. After all last time I checked this is still a free country.

To me it is like telling a child "see that candy in the bowl? you can look at it but don't touch it" well when you tell a child they absolutely can not touch it, they will go and do it just to prove that they can. So i believe in talking, talking, talking in what is good and bad what would be right or wrong and educate them the best that I can and hope that they will make an informed decision that will be right for them, not me.

Now I don't want any flames here I am just speaking my opinion and my mind. I am not saying that one breeder or another does it wrong or right, because who's to say, as it may work for them. I myself don't believe in trapping a person into a contract that they may never be able to get out of if things did not go as planned, I have seen many get into this, only to later lose a family member because the Breeder has enforced a contract that a person was unable to fulfill, And takes the dog away.

I think I will stop now before I start writing a book. Sorry if I upset anyone, it is not meant to.


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Ahh, Thank you, Jonda!

I am going to get Gucci soaped up and then x-ray'd and cerf'd and see if she has what it takes. If she doesn't, That's okay. When I got her, she was chosen for a "pet". I'm treading very slowly and cautiously, as usual! 

You have mighty fine taste, yourself  My girl is drooling over your boy! hehe.

Kara


----------



## Janizona (Oct 17, 2006)

*breeding/showing*

Over the 13 years in Havanese I have probably only placed 20 or so show pups and we were awarded our Breeder of Merit award for the Champions we bred. We are very proud of all of those dogs and of our own dogs that have earned their Register of Merits. We've also been invited to Eukanuba twice (unfortunately we couldn't make it!) I just don't think the measure of a kennel should solely based upon their show record - but I do think dogs in a breeding program should be Champions first if possible.

I like that the HCA rewards breeders for not only the show ring but the health status of their dogs. We have the 4-star award for passing hips, patellas, cerf and BAER. I'd like to see more stars, for things like cardiac, liver testing, elbows etc. I'd love to say my Champion dogs are 7 Star dogs!

Janet Hicks
Janizona Havanese


----------



## abuelashavanese (Mar 26, 2007)

It does make sense that a breeder would keep their best pick of a litter, but that is not always the case. Some breeders may not want to keep a pup out of every litter. They may already have what they need in their household and want to place their best prospect in a show home. And sometimes you just can’t tell who will be the best when they are only 12 weeks old.


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Heather, you make very good points.

I just wonder if more of the breeders that have been around for years would embrace the "new" breeders that want IN, and help mentor them, if we would have LESS of a problem with puppy mills and backyard breeders.

I get the impression that many people that want to breed are "rejected", and I find that curious, why would they seek out dogs from a reputable breeder if they wanted to create a puppy mill?

Its absolutely horrible that you lost a dog that way, Heather. This is where it becomes all about the "money" and nobody wins. Too bad that people are out there ready to cut your throat...

Do other breeds have the level of "drama" that the Havanese breeders do? lol, I've never seen anything like it! And I thought "our" business industry was pretty bad. HA! These investors and CEO's need to meet some breeders. ound: (NO offense to all you wonderful ones here on this thread and forum!)

Kara


----------



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

This has been a great posting and hearing all of your thoughts either way. It gives me a lot to think about and I still have a lot of research.

Thanks for your thoughts Heather. I think written is going to be the way I am going to go... didn't spend all that money at law school for nothing either 

Jonda, it is interesting you say the look. So far 2 puppies I have met at show that I liked, happened to have the same sire. So I might not be that far off from recognizing lines! I have gone to quite a few shows as I like competing in obedience there so Dora and I can go watch breed before/after. But there are a lot more shows nearby in LA 


I have friends who show with other breeds. I have never shown any dogs in breed but have friends that do themselves, and those that send with handlers. One has poodles and cockers which can be very difficult owner handler so she always sends them out. She doesn't think of the showing part as fun v. I want to have fun there! But she is of the opinion any dog can be finished with the correct handler. I am not looking to just finish the dog, but looking to take the dog myself and learn. Maybe it is something I do in the future too or maybe I finish the one dog and say never again! Time will tell!

Amanda


----------



## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

Thumperlove said:


> I was planning on attending some shows here on the East Coast.
> 
> Kara


This was the advise I got from a gentleman that had been in the dog showing business for awhile. He said to go to dog shows, talk to the breeders/handlers, check out their dogs. See what dogs/breeders are winning. And read up on the Havanese breed standards.

You can go to the AKC site and search your area for the dates of dog shows.

Maybe attend some dog classes for showing, your AKC local club would probably be able to help you out there.

Fortunately there are good breeders with good dogs that will sell show puppies and be a mentor to people like you and me, and let us share in the good fortune of enriching our lives with the experience of showing the Havanese dog and at the same time work towards bettering the bread.


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Lynn said:


> This was the advise I got from a gentleman that had been in the dog showing business for awhile. He said to go to dog shows, talk to the breeders/handlers, check out their dogs. See what dogs/breeders are winning. And read up on the Havanese breed standards.
> 
> You can go to the AKC site and search your area for the dates of dog shows.
> 
> ...


That's exactly what I plan on doing! I do not swim in waters I am unfamiliar with, I have alot to learn and it will probably take a year or two to get to a comfortable place, I know that.

I hope I can find others showing Havanese around here  I'm happy to hear you have found a great breeder that is helping you along. That's fabulous! I know you'll do great.

I've built 3 companies and raised 7 kids! lol, I know I can do whatever I set my mind to...with the right *knowledge* and *passion*!  But I'm glad Amanda brought this topic up. It's definately keepin' the wheels churnin'.

Kara


----------



## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

I totally understand Amanda! I think the idea of showing sounds like a fun and challenging adventure. Where it would lead only time would tell. It may turn out finishing one dog is enough and there is no desire to breed. I would make sure to finish the dog as that is what they deserve and then let them spend the rest of their life on the sofa if they choose :biggrin1: I too would see the dog as my pet first (same as any pet I've had). It would just be a pet that I get to do something extra special and fun with.

I think it is so important for the reputable breeders out there to be willing to mentor if possible because there are planty of breeders out there that will sell a dog with a full AKC contract and they might not have the best dog to be breeding.


----------



## Carol (Jun 18, 2007)

Kara, First - I cannot believe you have seven children!! After raising teenagers, ANYTHING is a walk in the park! Can I just tell you that I think Gucci is beautiful. Her white face is so pristine. How do you keep it that way?


----------



## abuelashavanese (Mar 26, 2007)

Thumperlove said:


> Ahh, Thank you, Jonda!
> 
> I am going to get Gucci soaped up and then x-ray'd and cerf'd and see if she has what it takes. If she doesn't, That's okay. When I got her, she was chosen for a "pet". I'm treading very slowly and cautiously, as usual!
> 
> ...


MoJo says he has been evaluating Gucci's legs for the past three months. He thinks they look fabulous with or without soap! He would be proud to be next to her in the ring any time. He bets she has a springy little gait when she does her down and back. Besides, she needs a collection of ribbons!

On a serious note, dog showing should still have an element of fun in it. It does not mean you are going to turn it into a high profit breeding business. That does not happen often. What it does mean is that you can enjoy your dogs and learn all you can along the way.


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

> Kara, First - I cannot believe you have seven children!! After raising teenagers, ANYTHING is a walk in the park! Can I just tell you that I think Gucci is beautiful. Her white face is so pristine. How do you keep it that way?


Thanks Carol! I am still dealing with teens! lol If I survive that...I can do anything, right! With Gucci, I just spot clean her face when she needs it. The tearing pretty much stopped after teething and switching to her to homecooked and bottled water. She's a bit prissy and doesn't like to get dirty, so I'd like to take full credit for her cleanliness...but I won't! haha.



> MoJo says he has been evaluating Gucci's legs for the past three months. He thinks they look fabulous with or without soap! He would be proud to be next to her in the ring any time. He bets she has a springy little gait when she does her down and back. Besides, she needs a collection of ribbons!
> 
> On a serious note, dog showing should still have an element of fun in it. It does not mean you are going to turn it into a high profit breeding business. That does not happen often. What it does mean is that you can enjoy your dogs and learn all you can along the way.


Jonda..You are too cute!  I think the main reason to show would be for fun. I don't imagine there is very much money involved, especially when you factor in the work entailed. It would be fun to travel with the dogs, meet like minded people and yes, have fun!

My husband and I help small businesses and companies GROW for a living, We are sort of business "psychologists", so to speak...so I've seen it all and know what separates the successful people from the ones that stay stagnant. I would never go into showing (or breeding) thinking I would make alot of money. lol, I get the impression that I would be *spending* alot of money instead!! ound: Which can be just as much FUN as making it, I suppose!

Kara


----------



## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

I love showing a dog that loves to show. The German Shepherds I have had in the past didn't have the "look at me I'm here" attitude that Sam has. We have so much fun meeting people and their dogs. Will I ever breed Sam? Probably not. 

I do hope to get a "Show Girl" in the near future, to have more fun in the Show ring. Will I ever breed a litter? Only time and testing will tell.

My best advise to anyone who would like to show is to join your local Kennel Club, get envolved behind the scenes too. It can be lots of fun, I really enjoy meeting people of different breeds and getting many opinions.


----------



## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Does anyone else see Kara rolling up to a weekend dog show in a fabulous RV with a gorgeous photo of Gucci painted on the side?? 
I think dog showing would be a really fun hobby. I'd absolutely hate the politics though. I know every single hobby that gets more than two people together has the same problems. The one we've been involved in does.
I remember my husband (who knows nothing about dog shows but is learning) asking our breeder how much money she wins...the look on her face was priceless as she explained that she doesn't win any money. In fact, she pays to enter the shows and if her dog wins, she gets ribbons. His look in response was priceless too. 

Susan


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

mckennasedona said:


> Does anyone else see Kara rolling up to a weekend dog show in a fabulous RV with a gorgeous photo of Gucci painted on the side??
> 
> Susan


WHHHOOOOAAA Nelly!!!!!!  I HAVE to draw the line at owning a stroller! LOL

First of all, I have 7 kids and I REFUSE to get a mini-van. I will not succumb to the whole soccer-mom lifestyle. HAHA. ound: I know a mini van is practical (and please, I do not want to offend anyone that owns one) But.. I just don't like them. I'm an SUV kind of a girl. An RV is WAYYY outta the question! I am ehh.....40-50 years too young for that. ound: PLUS, you have obviously NEVER ridden in a car w/ my husband driving. I take planes whenever possible. 

Kara


----------



## Carol (Jun 18, 2007)

Kara, you crack me up!!!


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

LOL ound: 

I am the proverbial Gen-X'r !! My idea of "roughing it" entails being more than 2 minutes away from a Starbucks, living w/o wireless, and a hotel that doesn't have a "mini-bar".

An RV is practically CAMPING...in the wilderness!!!!! :jaw: 

*****shudder*****

hehe

Kara


----------



## Carol (Jun 18, 2007)

I'm right there with you!! I'm all about honoring my inner princess. I'm toooo old to be roughing it in anything other than a nice hotel! 

ps did I mention the importance of room service? Needs to be there!!! lol


----------



## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

But Kara, everyone at weekend dog shows has an RV don't they? After all, the fun actually starts after the public leaves and the dog people open a few bottles of wine and make the rounds, right!


----------



## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Count me in on that - running water, private bathroom, roomservice - thats about it!!!! No camping for this old lady either!!

But I have to say kara, I could see you on one of those tour busses that the rock stars use with Gucci painted on the outside!!ound:


----------



## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

I'm thinking more of the 2.3 million dollar Prevost I saw. It had two bathrooms, a walk in closet, marble floors, a kitchen that rivaled any in a home and lighting that was amazing.


----------



## abuelashavanese (Mar 26, 2007)

dboudreau said:


> I love showing a dog that loves to show. The German Shepherds I have had in the past didn't have the "look at me I'm here" attitude that Sam has. We have so much fun meeting people and their dogs. Will I ever breed Sam? Probably not.
> 
> I do hope to get a "Show Girl" in the near future, to have more fun in the Show ring. Will I ever breed a litter? Only time and testing will tell.
> 
> My best advise to anyone who would like to show is to join your local Kennel Club, get envolved behind the scenes too. It can be lots of fun, I really enjoy meeting people of different breeds and getting many opinions.


Debbie, it sounds like we are on the same page.

Most of the Havanese I have met really enjoys being the center of attention. My girl, Evie, gets beyond excited when I say play "show dog" - she does that cute little head tilt and then her ballerina dance. She knows it's time and she loves it! She is my high-stepper. When she is in the ring she thinks she rules the world. It's a hoot to watch her. She has finished her Championship but we will continue to show her just for fun. She has passed her health test to date -- so will I breed her? Yes, but most likely just once. She has an incredible coat, super personality and nice structure over all. I hope she will pass those qualities on to the next generation.

MoJo has a little different attitude in the ring. He thinks he too cool. His everyday greeting includes him jumping up to snap the elastic on your panties - so you never know if he is going to try that in the ring. He is a super happy fellow and at the right speed his gait is real springy. He had a later start at showing than my others. I found out that it was very difficult for me to have Evie and MoJo in the ring at the same time. Since I do most of the handling myself they competed for mama&#8230;. You would have thought Evie had her foot caught in a trap or something. She would let out a huge yelp when she spotted me in the ring with MoJo. So I elected to finish Evie first and than concentrate on Mo.

I guess you can tell we have a load of fun showing. We go to training every Thursday night and this gives us something to do together. Joining your local clubs is a great start. Many of them will sponsor training classes and they always welcome any help you can offer.


----------



## abuelashavanese (Mar 26, 2007)

Thumperlove said:


> WHHHOOOOAAA Nelly!!!!!!  I HAVE to draw the line at owning a stroller! LOL
> 
> First of all, I have 7 kids and I REFUSE to get a mini-van. I will not succumb to the whole soccer-mom lifestyle. HAHA. ound: I know a mini van is practical (and please, I do not want to offend anyone that owns one) But.. I just don't like them. I'm an SUV kind of a girl. An RV is WAYYY outta the question! I am ehh.....40-50 years too young for that. ound: PLUS, you have obviously NEVER ridden in a car w/ my husband driving. I take planes whenever possible.
> 
> Kara


Be careful Kara, I said the exact same thing. I wouldn't do it for my kids, but now for my dogs.... yes a new mini-van.


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

> Be careful Kara, I said the exact same thing. I wouldn't do it for my kids, but now for my dogs.... yes a new mini-van.


You're right! I should never "say never", ehh? ound: I'll keep cramming them all in my SUV for as long as possible though! 



> I'm thinking more of the 2.3 million dollar Prevost I saw. It had two bathrooms, a walk in closet, marble floors, a kitchen that rivaled any in a home and lighting that was amazing.


Gosh, can you believe some of those places? And yachts????? WOW. My only question is...who washes the sheets and cleans the toilets? haha ound: I guess it would have to come w/ a full time "staff"?



> Count me in on that - running water, private bathroom, roomservice - thats about it!!!! No camping for this old lady either!!
> 
> But I have to say kara, I could see you on one of those tour busses that the rock stars use with Gucci painted on the outside!!ound:


I guess it would be one way to advertise the Princess without renting a sign on the highway, ehh? ound: And here I am...making fun of the ******** here with pictures of deer or confederate flags painted on their big trucks!? ound: Shame on me!



> I'm right there with you!! I'm all about honoring my inner princess. I'm toooo old to be roughing it in anything other than a nice hotel!
> 
> ps did I mention the importance of room service? Needs to be there!!! lol


Oh..I hear ya! If I told people here that know me relatively well, that I am going "camping"..they would probably fall over laughing and ask me if they are building nail salons in the woods these days!! bwahaha.

I have to have room service! Especially if there isn't a Starbucks nearby! I need my pots of coffee delivered 3x a day! 

Kara


----------



## traceyrives (Oct 12, 2006)

*conformation & contracts*

This is so interesting. I had no idea it could be so controversial. I fell into the world of showing Havanese innocently and accidentally and have loved every minute of it. I bought my guy as a pet and a year later when it was time to neuter, decided he was so beautiful I would like to show. So I then contacted my breeder (out of town) and she allowed me to buy the breeding rights for a hefty sum, which we did. Is this wrong? I have total ownership of my dog with AKC papers. We're learning together with basically no mentor. He has 10 pts with one major. I'm so proud of him. Most of the people I've met at the shows have been wonderful. I definitely want to own another one when I finish him. I'm obsessed with the whole thing.

I guess my point is, why does it have to be so complicated. It's a great sport with so much to learn. I know I got lucky, but is it so wrong to want a little girl out of my big boy? I think if you go to the trouble and expense to groom!! and show Havanese, you are a responsible person with only the best intentions at heart. I have no intention of being a breeder, but would love to be a part of the whole showing thing. After reading all of this, I feel blessed I got the chance. Also, I found the best way to learn is just do it.

Any response from any breeder would be appreciated.


----------



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Tracey- as you know, I am not a breeder obviously but I have emailed and met several breeders at shows and spoke to them about welcoming new people. I think they want to make sure their pups-show or not go to the right home (I would be this way too!) Also a lot of breeders don't want the show pup's home to be focued on breeding the girl like crazy. Once you give those rights away... you better trust that person because they could just keep breeding her over and over! I think of it as some how havanese got into puppy mills (sad sad) I think they just want to make sure each person they give one of their pups is going to be a great home!

It is awesome for your just a pet, you already have 10 points... congrats! Did you just take classes to get started? My training club has one night a week focus on confirmation. Dora kind of knows some of the poses so I might start taking the classes with her so I learn. ie- how to stack... well she can do a moving stand from the obedience side of the world, so I might just take the classes so I am ready when I get a puppy!

Amanda


----------



## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Thumperlove said:


> I get the impression that many people that want to breed are "rejected", and I find that curious, why would they seek out dogs from a reputable breeder if they wanted to create a puppy mill?
> 
> Kara


Kara,
I can answer that question. So they can brag on their web sites and in ad's that their breeding dogs COME from champion lines. They also might even show pictures of dogs in their pedigree's that have been champions and gone to Westminster or Eukanube, but yet that "breeder" doesn't show their own dogs or do all the health testing.

I am very picky where I place a show puppy because this breed has become too popular too fast and are being exploited by many trying to make a buck!

When I sell a show potential puppy, it is because I believe it is a puppy that has the potential to win and it is a puppy I would keep for myself if I could keep them all, which I can't and don't want too. Breeding should be about improving the breed only. I spend a lot of time reading pedigrees, looking up health stats, attending seminars, reading books, discussing options and idea's with other breeders before I do a breeding.


----------



## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Thumperlove said:


> WHHHOOOOAAA Nelly!!!!!!  I HAVE to draw the line at owning a stroller! LOL
> 
> First of all, I have 7 kids and I REFUSE to get a mini-van. I will not succumb to the whole soccer-mom lifestyle. HAHA. ound: I know a mini van is practical (and please, I do not want to offend anyone that owns one) But.. I just don't like them. I'm an SUV kind of a girl. An RV is WAYYY outta the question! I am ehh.....40-50 years too young for that. ound: PLUS, you have obviously NEVER ridden in a car w/ my husband driving. I take planes whenever possible.
> 
> Kara


Kara,
You are cracking me up!!!!! YOU GO GIRL!!!!!!!


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Kathy said:


> Kara,
> I can answer that question. So they can brag on their web sites and in ad's that their breeding dogs COME from champion lines. They also might even show pictures of dogs in their pedigree's that have been champions and gone to Westminster or Eukanube, but yet that "breeder" doesn't show their own dogs or do all the health testing.
> 
> I am very picky where I place a show puppy because this breed has become too popular too fast and are being exploited by many trying to make a buck!
> ...


Kathy,

I understand what your saying, and I do know exactly the type of breeders you are talking about. That just want the "champion lines".

I think it would work if there was more mentoring. I know a few of the big kennels have placed alot of dogs with various breeders over the last few years (atleast it appears that way) and I'd hope they are mentoring and requiring all the health testing done. Can't that be included in contracts?

I admire all the work and effort that many of you *great* breeders here do! It is quite admirable, I know it is a labor of love and not something to jump in blindly.

My mother bred poodles for almost 20 years, so I am quite aware of the commitment it takes. Hats off!

Kara


----------



## traceyrives (Oct 12, 2006)

Amanda

I did take him to a beginner obedience class, although he's so willing to please anyway. Went to one handler class offered by our local KC and didn't get much out of it. I mostly learned from just doing it and making a fool out of myself. I'm sure the pros were cracking up. I must say, the majority of the judges have been wonderfully forgiving and very willing to help. Every time we go, I feel like I learn something else. My inexperience advice, just go for it.

Also, would love to know about the blow dryer. 
Tracey


----------



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Tracey-
Thanks I put the review in dryers!

I think I will take a handling class since I am too used to teaching heeling for obedience... I assume in conformation, you want the dog walking ahead of you rather than wrapped at your side! Gonna have to undo what I know!

Amanda


----------

