# HOW TO FIND A GOOD BREEDER.....



## Kathy

This link was posted on the big Havanese yahoo list. I thought it was very good as to what makes a breeder a good one.

http://www.epets.ca/pawspets/articles/goodbreeder.html


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## Beamer

*Good breeders do..*

Here is another good checklist on how to spot a good breeder Vs. puppy mills & bad breeders...

http://www.havanesefanciers.com/GoodBreeder-Bad.htm


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## irnfit

I know I said this before on a similar thread, but I'm going to say it again. If we are reading the info on finding a good breeder, so are the "breeders". I know that when I was looking for my first Hav, some questionable breeders asked me all the right questions and even had me fill out lengthy questionnaires. 

I agree that we need all the knowledge we can get, but be warned that other people are also reading this same info. Just my 2 cents.


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## Kathy

MIchele,
I agree, they too are and should be reading this info, but I don't believe they are following it. The "bad" breeders I have learned about, don't show their dogs typically nor do most of the health testing on their breeding dogs. Typically, they are not a member of any dog clubs, whether it be an all breed club or a local/national breed club.

I understand what you are saying, but at the same time educating the buying public is a good thing too. <grin>


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## irnfit

Yes, Kathy. That was my point exactly. These "breeders" are reading the info to learn just what we need to hear. They are not breeding for the betterment of the breed, but for greed. But I agree that we need to keep educating people so they will be able to, hopefully, spot the bad breeders.


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## Havtahava

...but, if those bad breeders read this and change their ways, they would then become "good" breeders, so it would be good for them to read it too!


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## irnfit

Good thought, Kimberly. You are truly an optimist  
I would hope the same thing would happen. Even if it changed a small percentage, it would matter a great deal for our breed, as well as other breeds. Keep the faith!


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## TnTWalter

*Besides the list kay emails....*

is there a list to check a breeder to make sure it's 'good' or at least not a puppy mill, etc.? Thanks.

Trish


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## Kathy

Trish,
No there isn't unfortunately. You need to be sure you ask a lot of questions, go see the mom and if available the dad, see where the dogs live, talk to the breeder, and ask about what health testing they do on the parents before they breed them. We can show how to look up the results of the health testing, but I will tell you if no health testing was done, then I wouldn't say they are a good breeder.


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## TnTWalter

*OK so the puppy I'm considering now ....*

the breeder bought the whole litter from a breeder in Ohio...is this typical? or what shoudl I look for here?
Trish


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## dboudreau

Personally, I think I would "Run-Like-Hell". Doesn't sound right to me.


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## TnTWalter

*awww shucks....*

but they've gotten good recommendations from fellow forum people.....

trish


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## Havtahava

What do you mean when you say they bought the whole litter? 

Debbie, why would that alarm you?


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## marjrc

TnTWalter said:


> the breeder bought the whole litter from a breeder in Ohio...is this typical? or what shoudl I look for here?
> Trish


I dont' know.... I mean, who BUYS a litter?? In fact, who on earth would SELL a whole litter???  At what age did this litter leave it's mom? And WHY? How can someone breed a litter then not have the ressources, desire or whatever reason to then continue with seeing that the pups go to good homes, etc... ?

Sounds very weird to me!


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## Kathy

Trish,
It sounds like a puppy broker. Did you ask what health testing had been done on the sire and dam of the litter? Ask where the sire and dam are located? Ask, why she purchased them. Who is the breeder of record on the AKC papers?

Just a couple of questions I would ask.


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## dboudreau

I agree with Marj, it sound weird to me, unless there was some kind of agreement between two breeders. I guess there could be reasons and maybe I re-acted too fast, but it still sounds strange.


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## Havtahava

I'm a little concerned by the comment that several people here recommended the breeder to you, Trish. If it was breeders who recommended her to you, then I think there is more to the story. (And I say that because so many breeders do unique exchanges, co-ownerships, etc.) If it was puppy buyers who recommended her to you, it definitely sounds like it is fishy or a broker.

I recommended someone in Ohio to you. If you're talking about her, I think there is a huge piece of the puzzle missing to have it all add up.


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## Cheryl

I think Brutus came from a similar situation. Hubby bought Brutus for me from somebody without the parents on sight. There was a simbling. The papers came from Kansas. This is not how I would have dealt with the situation, but so far I have an excellent dog. Perhaps you can get lucky. There are people on this site who will tell you some of the ugly stories that you do not want to be a part of.


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## TnTWalter

*I have emailed her some more questions..*

I don't think it's a puppy broker. Perhaps there were only a few in the litter. I think it leans more toward a mom and pop but not backyard. They are AKC registered. It's probably not 'the best' situation but it's also not the worst. Once I get the questions answered, I should no more.

The prices are on the low end of what I'm finding from 'reputable'. Low end being $1200 High end being $2000.

I just wish there was like a BBB for dog breeders where you typed in a name and found otu if there were any complaints, etc.

My other problem that I'm running into is you can pay $1500 but some come with the crate and chipping and lifetime guarantte and partially crate trained and some just come with the dog for $1850. How do you deal with that difference when both are reputable??

Trish


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## Havtahava

I know it is much easier for me to say, but I'd look at the overall value of what you are getting. I don't think I'd buy from anyone who doesn't invest in health, training & care into their dogs. 

Also, I think you have to ignore the puppies in the beginning and just investigate the breeder. I'd even go so far as to warn you to stay far away from a breeder that has puppies without homes and insists on you coming to their house to see the puppies or gives you one to hold, but doesn't do all their health testing up front, doesn't interview you, and just wants to put them into a home.

In regard to the breeder, you can even go so far as to ask for references. There is nothing wrong with that.

After checking out the breeder, ask about the two parents of the puppies and start checking them out. Are the dogs both champions? If not, why? Ask questions. Look up their health testing record. Have they completed all the tests? If not, why? (There can be exceptions to both of those situations, but ask and find out why.) Check out other relatives of both of those dogs. Do you see a consistency of the dogs passing their health testing (or find that there are no siblings or extended relatives with health testing).

After looking into the breeder, and the parents of the puppies, then start weighing the other variables like the purchase price. If you find two breeders that you are comfortable with, then you can start weighing those other details.

I hope this helps.


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## TnTWalter

*I know I know...*

I'm just such a big bargain hunter. But I always get best quality for best price so not usually cheapest but I definitely get deals....

LOL...I have passed on this one and wasn't going to get it yet. I just posed the question because I wondered if this was a red flag or not. Seems it is a red flag so more questions needed, etc. I do want an older puppy though and from a GOOD breeder, these are few and far between.

I have a great spreadsheet with all the breeders I was considering with check marks for all the various testing, shots, training, guarantees, etc. LOL.

I will be ready and informed when the time is right and I will hopefully have convinced DH to spend the big bucks....he's come a long way though.
Trish


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## SMARTY

Trish, I was told in Smary's litter that the stud owner bought or took 2 of the 4 (she still has them). I understood she would have taken all but just could not. I know I make every mistake in the Havanese book on getting Smarty. So far I have been extremely lucky according to this forum, but I'm not at all sure what the future holds. Her pedigree has checked out beautifully as far as champions on both sides (US & Hungarian), some really top dogs are very closely related. But she has had no testing and that scares me a bit. Do I want to know at this point? Can I change any thing if she does not pass a test? She is smart, funny, loving and is a joy to have in our home. With my new knowledge, I would never breed her without testing AND WOULD NOT BUY ANOTHER PUPPY THAT DID NOT HAVE ALL TESTING. 

Question: Where would you begin the testing if you wanted too?


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## irnfit

Ok, now I have a question. When you get a pups pedigree and you register your new pup with AKC, is there any way to really know this is a legit pedigree? Both my dogs have pretty good pedigrees with some good breeders in their backgrounds. How do I know this is true? Can someone fib on a registration and would it get past AKC?


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## Tom King

I don't know if this has been mentioned or not but another thing to look out for as important as health testing is to make sure that as many dogs in a puppy's background as possible have straight legs.

The big study done by Texas A&M found out that almost all of the Havanese with problems have bowed legs. Not a single Havanese with straight legs has been found to have juvenile cataracts. Puppy legs can be straight to start with and bow as the growth plates close.

In short: DEMAND SOAPED PICTURES OF THE PARENTS Demand sounds a bit harsh but I wanted to get your attention. Actually I would ask for soaped pictures or xrays and if they weren't provided I'd turn the other way.

A soaped picture is one taken with the fur plastered down to the body so you can see the structure underneath. All responsible breeders provide soaps ( edited to add-or xrays) and stopped breeding bow legged dogs when this was found out.


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## TnTWalter

*Wow...didn't know that Tom...*

thanks for the heads up. So if I asked for soaped pics of parents, a legit breeder would have them no problem?

I love this board!

Trish


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## SMARTY

Tom, is there some pedigree common denominators as to certain defects? Or should we ask in this forum?

Michele, sure you could use different dogs in your kennel to alter a pedigree but the best we have is AKC's registration.


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## Havtahava

Michele, when a sire has contributed to four litters, he now has to have his DNA on file with AKC. I suppose you could always have your puppy's DNA tested and sent in to AKC to verify there is a match.

*Tom, that is excellent advice - asking for soaped photos of both parents!* I asked for soaped pictures of the stud before we talked long about the last breeding and the owner also for soaped photos of Tinky.


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## marbenv

Okay, I am a newbie to this forum. I do not yet have my havanese, but I really really want one. I live in Florida. Is $2000 the going rate for a quality dog? The parents have had all the health screenings, puppy shots, 2 yr. health guarantee, and lifetime return of dog. No other "extras" that I'm aware of. My husband's going to have a heart attack when he hears the price. He's always had "pound" dogs, but I really love this breed and feel that it would be a good dog for us. I also like a bargain, but I don't want to be cheap and then get a dog with all kinds of problems. Advice?


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## Havtahava

Sounds good so far marbenv. Just make sure you verify that the parents have had the health tests done. (You can get the registered names of both parents and verify it at OFFA.org yourself even.)

There is a thread here about the prices people have paid in the past. I can tell you that I've paid as low as $1900 and as high as $2500. The price you quoted is what I'm familiar with for quality dogs in Florida.


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## marbenv

*Male vs. female*

Thanks Havtahava. I never dreamed I would spend that much on a pet, but They are such great dogs. I will check out those tests.

Any thoughts on male Vs. female? I've heard that the females can be a little independent and a little "bitchy". True, or does it just depend on the individual personality of the dog?
\\\\


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## Havtahava

There are always exceptions, but the comment you've heard seems to fit as a general rule. Many people describe the females as loving you, but the males are _in love_ with you. In my experience, the males are big pleasers, whereas the females can be a bit more aloof. In basic terms, I like to sum up the differences like this:

Female Havanese say: "Love me, love me, love me"
Male Havanese say: "I love you, I love you, I love you"


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## marbenv

You seem like such a nice breeder. Wish you were in Florida! Thanks for the info


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## irnfit

I just got a very interesting email from the mini havanese lady. She has new litters available, get this....Minis are $2000, and Teeny Tiny are $3000. Regular size are $1500 :frusty: Plus, she wants a $500 NON-REFUNDABLE DEPOSIT (sorry for yelling).

She says hert pups come with a one year health guarantee and *none of her puppies have ever been sick*. We all know better. How can she be stopped?


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## Kathy

Tom King said:


> Not a single Havanese with straight legs has been found to have juvenile cataracts.
> 
> All responsible breeders provide soaps and stopped breeding bow legged dogs when this was found out.


Tom,
Your first comment I quoted above is actually incorrect. There *have* been Havanese with straight legs diagnosed with juvenile cataracts. While a dog with a bad front probably shouldn't be bred, all things wrong with the front leg assembly doesn't mean a dog has CD nor does it mean they will have cataracts.

As for your second comment I quoted above, I am a very responsible breeder, however, I don't soap my dogs for public review as I don't know of too many puppy buyers that would even know what to look for. I do however, have my dogs front xrayed to prove they are straight. A much more accurate way of detecting an issue in my opinion. I also don't xray them until after they are 14 months old as that is when typically the growth plates close. As a breeder, I watch my dogs growth all the time, and I suspect anything wrong with any part of them structurally it is checked out further. A dog with a bowed front can be seen easily when bathing, a dog with a slightly bad front can't always be detected but can be suspected.


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## Tom King

Sorry if I gave incorrect information but I don't think any dogs with straight legs in the study had any record of juvenile cataracts and I had never heard mention of any that had. This would be good information to share. It would be a great benefit to the breed to have soaped pictures of a Havanese who had juvenile cataracts as well as his pedigree. Dr. Murphy said at his talk at the National last year that they had not seen a dog with straight legs who had juvenile cataracts.

Also I thought all reputable breeders soaped their dogs now. It is possible to "fool" the camera by placing the dogs legs to look like they are staight-I have seen that demonstrated. I would guess that it would be possible to do that with an xray too. But if you plop the dog down and take the shot there's no hiding it. That's commonly called now, "drop down straight". Especially if you take two shots-one with toes straight ahead and another with toes turned out then there is no hiding it.

I had heard that some people do xrays, but I don't see that it's that important if legs look like this: See below

I know someone is talking about doing a grading system that will require xrays but I didn't know it was anything but talk yet. Of course we will go take the xrays if they can be of benefit to the breed like we do everything else we can provide. Texas A&M is still doing DNA studies on Havanese. Allison from there called a couple of days ago and asked if we could send some more DNA from four of our dogs because they had used up the last samples and were running more tests. I didn't ask exactly what they were doing. It didn't matter. We're glad to provide anything that can help the breed.

Havanese were first soaped, as far as I know, when the Havanese 100 study was done. Everyone with dogs in the study was asked to send soaped pictures of the dogs. Anyway, we and a lot of other breeders have continued to take soaped pictures, not only of our adults but of puppies too. It's really a good tool for evaluating proportions on puppies.

We get puppy inquiries all the time, of course not always, from people who ask if we have soaped pictures of our dogs and are glad to provide them-all five generations if anyone wants to see them.

I don't see why xrays wouldn't be okay but soaps are so easy to do once you get the hang of it. 

CD or if anyone wants to call it just bowed legs are a real problem in Havanese. Any Havanese standard as far back as you can go has always called for straight legs. Bowed legs don't meet the standard if nothing else. The health study showed that the main health problems that they were looking for the markers for were grouped in dogs with bowed front legs. Imagine the ill effects on the gene pool if a stud dog with crooked legs who bred any number of different bitches was used. This cannot be left up to judges in the ring to decide.

Some judges (old timers who have taken the time to learn the standard) have told us, more than once, that roughly 1/3 of all Havanese in the ring have bowed legs. This includes Champions. Pam and I have had our hands on LOTS of Havanese and also agree that the 1/3 is about right. Too many judges don't know our standard and I've seen more than a few who never put their hands on the front legs. You can't tell what's under the show fur unless you feel it.

I don't see anything wrong with demanding soaped pictures or xrays of any parents of puppies you are considering. If anyone refuses either, I can't see any justifiable reason other than to hide something.

Are there still breeders out there who claim to be knowledgable but refuse to soap or xray their dogs?????
Why???

It's just not worth the risk and I recommend that no one buy a puppy out of a parents with any combination of bowed legs.


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## susaneckert

Tom where you would click on summit for post click on go advance instead then page down to additalional opions click on manage attachments a window will pop up and click on browse and go to your picture file I hope this helps it took me a while to remember how to insert a picture in a message,


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## susaneckert

I agree this TOM!!! I am new to the breed and I have learn so much since I have found this site and from reading books. If I would of known what to look for and truly understood what to look for and what to ask I would not of made the mistake I did when I got Yoda grant it Yoda I would not trade for the world I wanted this breed this breed now and I wanted to get in to shows Well as for Yoda he can not be shown because of leg problems and there for I will not breed him because of the leg problems the so called breeder is not a breeder for the breed. I am just amazed with the people that claim they are a breeder but when it comes down to it they are not. I know as for where I live I have come across havs the prices for one is out of sight I figured the average is around 2000. and that is with no pedigree no champs no blood line either and limited reg, I can see that price if you can show or the blood line is there ect.I feel that if you are a breeder do it for all the right reason have pictures to back up and the paper work if you are not willing to show proof your line is good why do it at all . I think Tom and his wife do it the right way.There is my 2 cents


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## marjrc

All great advice!

Tom wrote*:" Are there still breeders out there who claim to be knowledgable but refuse to soap or xray their dogs?????
Why??? "*

Ricky's breeder did not soap the pups in both litters she had. She had no pics of soaped dams either. When I asked, she said, "I don't like to soap them and then take pics since they get too cold and quite uncomfortable." She also said, "I know, just by feeling their legs and seeing them, that they have no leg problems."
Not terribly reassuring, but I accepted it. I accepted a lot of what she said because I really wanted to have one of her puppies!

I am lucky in that both parents were health-tested and do have their CHIC (sp?)/and/or OFA... sorry, it's late, my brain's tired.... She said that in past litters, no puppy ever had health issues. I know that neither Ricky's dam, nor his sire have ever been ill or had leg/eye/liver troubles, but there are a couple of things that are probably 'red flags' and that might make me question things a lot more now that I know.

Touch wood, Ricky's a very healthy and strong boy.


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## Havtahava

Marj, I think most of us understand that desire to believe the best. Even a lot of those of us that have become breeders have been in your shoes.

I just want to touch on one thing you said - Having a CHIC number does NOT mean that the dog has PASSED his/her health testing. It only means that the dog TOOK the health tests that are recommended by the breed club. Your puppy's parents could be blind, deaf, dysplastic and have patella problems and still have a CHIC number (heaven forbid). I don't think everyone knows that, so I just want to reiterate that it is important to VERIFY the health testing results yourself.


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## Tom King

Thanks Susan. I didn't have to do that on the horse Forums that I frequent. The pictures are Keeper and Posh. They don't breed to anyone that we don't have soaped pictures of or have our hands on or anyone without ALL of the health testing passed.


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## susaneckert

You are so welcome Tom to me isnt that the way it should be??? I would think that would be just common sense I could be wrong.LOLAnd it would go for any animal type testing pictures ect. Why breed to take a risk not good idea to me .keep up the great work !!!!


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## Havtahava

> I would think that would be just common sense I could be wrong.LOL.


 Susan, sometimes it is ignorance, sometimes defiance of wanting to do things his/her own way, and sometimes it is just plain foolishness as to why other "breeders" don't do things the same way as was stated above.

When I started, I was totally ignorant of how these reputable breeders do things and I've been privileged to be mentored by some of the best Havanese breeders. I still have a long way to go in gaining knowledge, but I hope to never repeat any mistakes. I made some mistakes in the beginning, but I learned quickly that wasn't the way to go.

Also, the soaped pictures and health testing tell us things that we might not have otherwise known, even though we are with our dogs every day and bathe them regularly. The camera has a way of bringing things to light because it is truly objective.


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## susaneckert

I know I have learn so much since i have gotten Yoda the dos and donts With Yoda I went with my heart not my head. I found that its so important to follow the AKC guide lines. So the next time I buy a hav. I know not to follow my heart.To do the research the best I can and ask for pictures and soap pictures and the testing for I can check it out. My heart was broken when I noticed Yoda leg thank G he is not in pain or it does not seem to bother him whats so ever.At least I learn from my mistakes .Yoda in all the pictures that I have taken of him you do not see any thing wrong with his leg but I see it when he walks .So yoda will be just my little boy that I love dearly. and gos every where with me. I will be getting him fix real soon.Its just hard for me to understand why some one would breed for all the wrong reasons.I could never do that


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## Leeann

Tom -Great pictures.

When I was getting Riley (first dog ever) and my breeder told me she was sending me Soaped pictures I had no clue what she was talking about… I thought it was the craziest thing ever and laughed even harder the first time I seen the pictures, but have come to realize how important the little things are. Riley is a pet but my breeder did tell me when she sells to a show home she requires soap pictures done at certain times for her records. I told her the next time I bath Riley (now 1.5) I’m going to try and get some Soap pictures for fun, she laughed at me but also stated she would love to have some.

Kimberly, you are so lucky to have great mentors. I am sooo new to the dog world and have so much yet to learn. This forum has been a great help especially having great breeders on here.


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## Kathy

Tom,
You are correct that in the "study" there weren't, but then the study only included a small number of dogs too. There have been Havanese diagnosed though with juvenile cataracts that have straight fronts. 

As for not soaping, for me it was because I know of a well known breeder that saw a soaped front and told this other breeder that her dog had CD. It didn't look bowed, but rather more out at the elbow. Come to find out, the dog had a very nice straight front, but the dog hadn't been position properly. For me it is mostly about just being sure that no one can say otherwise, which as you know, happens all to often in the dog world. :biggrin1:


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## marjrc

Havtahava said:


> I just want to touch on one thing you said - Having a CHIC number does NOT mean that the dog has PASSED his/her health testing. It only means that the dog TOOK the health tests that are recommended by the breed club. Your puppy's parents could be blind, deaf, dysplastic and have patella problems and still have a CHIC number (heaven forbid). I don't think everyone knows that, so I just want to reiterate that it is important to VERIFY the health testing results yourself.


Good to know! Thanks a lot, Kimberly. I didn't know that.

Susan, I know what you mean. Take my Sammy, for instance. I followed my heart when we decided to buy him. I had really thought the whole Hav#2 thing and because of timing, I felt I should jump at the occasion and get Sammy. He is not near the Hav standard at all, though I knew this before I got him. I didn't know to what extent, but he is healthy for now and though one of his right feet is turned out a bit, who knows if that will cause problems later on?

As to checking out breeders though, his is in Hungary and is adamant about Sammy being a purebred so who can argue? If I had paid full price for him, had him as a baby, as opposed to at 7 months old, or had to invest a lot of time and effort into getting him, then I would certainly have been more 'fussy'. Sammy is very much loved by all of his here, though, and we are very happy that he's Ricky's brother and our Hav #2. 

IF....... and it's a big 'IF'..... we should get a third Hav one day, then I will be much more 'fussy' and will hopefully think more with my head than with my heart.


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## Tom King

On soaping dogs:

We set the table up out one step from the sink where the dogs are washed. The camera is either on a tripod or near where I can grab it while Pam holds the dog. The dog is going to be soaped up anyway when it's washed so 15 seconds to snap a few shots is not going to freeze the dog to death. Pam soaps up the dog, turns around and puts it on the table, and I snap the shots. 

We don't always get the best shots as you can see in the shot of Posh. We don't pose the legs. The dog is just plopped down. If the dogs legs have to be posed then there is something NQR anyway. In that shot Posh's feet are too close to be ideal but you can still see his legs. There's another folder on the computer somewhere with the best shots but those were the first ones I found. 

We take some lots of times when we wash any dog or puppy.

I can understand having xrays taken if anyone really has a hard time taking soaped pictures but to offer neither really sound like there is something to hide.

There are breeders who claim that straight legs don't matter. I have seen no proof.


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## susaneckert

I hear that marj research research research


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## Tom King

The thing that would worry me about xrays is that there is a difference between fine boned legs, medium boned, and heavy bones. The heavier the bone the more curvature there is going to be on the upper end anyway even though it has nothing to do with CD. There should be no heavy boned breeding dogs in Havanese but there is a lot of difference between a fine boned staight leg and a medium boned straight leg. I would worry more about people not knowing what they are looking at from xrays than from a soaped picture.

I'm not saying that a breeder should make available every picture they take but they do need to know how to evaluate the conformation of their own dogs.

The only Havanese I've had my hands on that have loose elbows also have fairly heavy bone, too much curvature in the leg for me, and also the scapula doesn't lie in tight. I wouldn't breed one of them anyway and certainly don't think one should be used as a public stud. Breeders need to understand this type of thing. 

I see the lack of knowledge on conformation with horse breeders too. Every year at Inspections, (Breeding stock has to be inspected before the offspring can be registered with Warmblood registries), someone will show up not having any idea what they have and get mad and obnoxious when their horse gets turned down.

Conformation matters.


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## susaneckert

If you are new to the breed and you have no mentor like me you never know what to look for the dos and donts you always have good points Tom


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## susaneckert

Is there really a thing that a breeder will be your mentior to guide you threw every thing.To answer all question along the way.If there is I sure would like to meet one when the time does come for me ever owning a little girl that is what I want the breeder I got yoda from has never ever email me to see how he adjusted . Would be nice to have some one walk by your side and possible even meeting at a dog show , How nice that would beL


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## DAJsMom

Susan,
There are many breeders on this forum and elsewhere who will be there to answer your questions even after they have your money. I have emailed Dusty's breeder many times with questions and she has always answered with lots of helpful information. She has also watched Dusty while we were away for a weekend and couldn't take her along, and given us some dog supplies that we needed and she didn't (including an ex-pen!). If you ever decide to get another havanese after the experience you've just had, just take your time, ask around, and you'll find a good breeder that can answer your questions and will take the time to help you.


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## Kathy

susaneckert said:


> Is there really a thing that a breeder will be your mentior to guide you threw every thing.To answer all question along the way.


Yes Susan, there are many breeders that will be there for you after you get your puppy. That is a part of what makes a breeder, an "ethical" breeder.

The breeders on this forum that post regularly, are ethical breeders that stand behind their dogs forever.

Take your time, find a breeder you like and feel good about it working on a long term relationship and you will find the puppy you want along with the support you are looking for too.


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## susaneckert

so there is still hope! I think I will just keep looking for a local breeder that way I think I would be more out to get another one I think it will be a long time before I trust in shipping sad to say but on the upper hand this way I can interact with the puppys I would of to meet some people in my area Im going to just take it one day at a time and go slow. I have heard of people doing co owner until the dog is paid for I will look into that too.I dont know how my parents use to do it but they where tight into there breed and people would give them dogs with pick of the littler type thing who knows.I have read on the AKC site that breeder can not charge extra for AKC reg, but they do.Why is this a pet sales for 1000- 1500 but a show sales for 2000 - 2500. There is no gar. that the show dog will become champ.You do all the work in grooming and trainng and also pay for all the shows and traveling to the shows this just does not make since to me , it just tells me they want the money its not about the dog, am I the only one that feels this way. I was just wondering is all,


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## Kathy

Susan,
I have never heard of a breeder co-owning a dog until it is paid off. That is a new one for me. Breeders will co-own a dog until it has for example, gotten it's AKC championship, had all the health testing done to get a CHIC from OFA or other requirements are met. I wouldn't allow a puppy to leave my home that hadn't been paid for in full. 

Paying over $2000 for a show "potential" dog in any breed is the norm rather then the exception. Many other breeds charge over $3000 for a show potential puppy. 

I would suggest you go to dog shows, as there are many in the S. California area, and meet some local breeders. There are many nice folks in your area. In California it is still common for a puppy buyer to wait a while to get a puppy from a reputable breeder. Getting a show potential puppy is harder and could take longer.


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## susaneckert

My paretns woud do that for different people that they knew.But this way years ago too. Every time I heard of a show here I had to leave out of state now that every thing is calming down I do plan on going to the shows.I have no problem in going the only problem I have is shy I fine it very hard to talk to people face to face I dont know why either on the net typing I have no problems whats so ever.Its the face to face things hubby laughs at me i cant even ask some one what time it is LOL.I guess I just have to start going and hope this shy part leaves me alone. the more I go I think the better off I will be, not having any friends here doesnt help either, I am a truly stay home wife LOL and I think that needs to change .


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## Kathy

Susan,
I understand all too well about dealing with shyness. I use to be the same way until I gave birth to a disabled child. I learned early on that my shyness was not going to get him the help he needed as I was his only advocate, so needed to learn to speak up and be heard in order for him to get the help he needed. It wasn't easy, but having the love of my child enabled me to overcome my shyness.

I wish I lived closer to you, I would be happy to meet you at some of the dog shows. Maybe a member on this forum would be willing to meet you there. There are lot's of GREAT vendors at the dog shows too, if nothing else you both could enjoy a day of "doggie" shopping together at the show. <grin>


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## susaneckert

You know 25 years ago I gave birth to a child to that was disbled and when it comes to my kids OMG watch out I would speak very loudly for them . I can have been fine when it came to my kids now I am at the point in my life that it is all for me WOW me whats that??? Taking time for my self I have never done in my life I had 3 kids of my own and adopted 2 children and have taken runaway in since I was 20 years old. little over 25 years later I get to have fun what is that ???:whoo:Who knows maybe we will meet some day at a dog show that would be so nice.


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## Cosmosmom

I do not know about these puppy brokers - sounds weird and like a middle man to me but hey I have learned a lot on this site ..
I would like make a comment however based on my experience because sometimes it seems like people on this site are so reactive and quick to judge and react .
I bought Asta from a breeder - like Tom she had a ranch and she breed horses and she breed Havanese . When I called her about wanting a Havanese puppy she had a three month puppy she was willing to sell me . For personal reasons I could not take the dog at that time and also I was cautious and tenative because of all I had read about getting a puppy too Late and getting a puppy too early . Like so many other people here on the site I did not want to do the wrong thing .. only the right thing and what was best for the puppy .. I did not want a psychologically damaged dog !!
My thoughts due to what I had read ..
The breeder then told me she had a friend who was having a litter - she had the stud . She told me this was her friends first litter and she was helping her with this endeavour . This new breeder lived in New Mexico . She had never breed dogs before she had bought her dog the female from the woman I spoke to who offered me her stud fee which was the pick of the litter .. 
Now to be clear here people buy these dogs for different reasons some of you are breeders and you are involved in showing and breeding . You have different criteria for your dogs . Then there are people like me and my friend we are not going to show or breed - we want a companion dog . We want a happy healthy puppy and dog . We wanted a dog that came from good lines was health tested and was home raised in a loving home not on a concrete floor .
The woman who breed my first havanese had never had a litter before - ? she was not a recognized breeder . She was just starting to raise and show dogs and she was not sure she would continue .. 
I bought one of her puppies my dog Asta sight unseen .
The breeder I spoke to help her assess the puppies and also she helped her sell the puppies . They were driven to her and she helped place the puppies .. She had most of them sold on her reputation as a breeder .
I personally know two of these dogs there was nothing wrong with these dogs they were wonderful dogs .. there were all tested and checked and passed . I wish I still had Asta but it was not to be but he was an amazing dog in my eyes .
Now if Iwas a first time buyer and logged onto this site and I had read all the recommendations and concerns you people post I would have probably passed on what had been suggested and I would have missed having 
Asta for four wonderful years .
I researched the breed I did all my homework but it was not that easy to find a dog five years ago . I am so happy I trusted my instincts and did not even hesitate and said fine .. I will take him..
Yes we all want to avoid bad breeders and puppy mills but also we have to have some common sense and pay attention to our instincts . Usually there are clues that tell you there is a problem and buyer beware ..
I still have to believe there are people out there like Asta's mom who are just getting  started and they are not yet established and and are learning and other breeders are there to help them .. Maybe this is how they decided to do it - she bought the litter outright and she will sell the puppies for a new breeder I do not know .
I do know if that breeder is reputable she would not stake her reputation on selling a puppy mill puppies . I would ask a few more questions and maybe follow my heart ..


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## Laurief

Susan, I agree with your story about Yoda. When I first got Lily, I knew nothing about what to look for, and quite honestly, didnt care. I fell in love & that is all that mattered!! I was so lucky to have come upon a good breeder who does CERF testing, patella, etc etc. She posts the pedigree of the parents and I was able to see her home & where the puppies were & meet the parents. From all the scary stories I hear I cannot believe that I was so lucky to have found her, without even trying. I did not come across this Forum until after Logan was due to come home - not that it would have changed my mind on the breeder, but if I had some trepidation about her, the forum might have made me look elsewhere . I hope that for all the people looking for Hav pups, they check us out here. As I am sure you have heard before, THANKS to Melissa for starting this forum!!:biggrin1:


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## marjrc

I thought I'd post a link to Kathy Patrick's website on "how to find a good breeder". I quickly scanned this thread, but dont' think I saw it posted. Here it is:

http://www.bellahavanese.com/FINDINGABREEDER.html

GREAT info !


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## ECudmore

*How to Find a Good Breeder*

It took me two years to find Racquet. I looked at a litter here in So. Calif. and after asking many questions I left the house ASAP. I realized I knew more about the breed than the breeder.
A reputable breeder will be asking you as many questions as you ask them.
You can also check references. 
I also think your gut instinct will kick in when selecting a breeder and the puppy.
This forum is a wealth of great information.
Elayne and Racquet


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