# Yet another ex-pen/potty training/SA question



## woodlandmoon (Jan 15, 2008)

I know this has been addressed several times and I've tried to read through as many threads as I could find about it but I still have a few questions. 

Our 1 year old female, Zoe (for now at least), was with the breeder for a year and trained to go outside. She is doing pretty well given such a huge change at 1 year old. Some days are accident free-- other days she has one or two which are because I've been distracted, given too much freedom etc. She also is started to have major separation anxiety and I feel like I can't leave the room, let alone the house. 

She peed in her crate the other day when I was gone about four hours and she was hysterical when I got home. I think I would like to set her up in an ex-pen with a litter box when I'm gone (a few hours 2 or 3 times a week). She is in her crate at night, is very calm and is dry in the morning after 7 or 8 hours. 

I have the plastic North Star ex-pen. I've read previous posts and from what I gather I should have food, water, bed and litter pan in the pen. She's been in there for a few hours now and I know if I took her outside she would go immediately but refuses to go inside the pen. Should I just make the pen as small as possible until she goes? She's sleeping/sulking right now. I tried this once before and finally gave in and took her outside after several hours of her not going. She went immediately. Is it crazy to try to teach her to go inside? I would really like to be able to leave for 4 or 5 hours occasionally without stressing the whole time I'm gone that she'll pee in her crate and eventually just start peeing in there all the time. 

Sorry this is so long. I guess I'm wondering if I should just go ahead and take her outside to potty or leave her in the pen until she does. The pen is two panels long by one panel wide right now. Should I take out the food and water and bed and make it one panel all the way around until she goes? I have Second Nature litter in the pan along with some rocks she's peed on previously and some sod from our yard.

Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions.
Woodlandmoon

Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions on the potty .


----------



## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I'm not exactly sure of your goal. Are you trying to create a location where she can feel free to eliminate when you aren't home?

Was she urinating in her crate without the ability to get out? I'm trying to figure out if you want to set up the pen now that she has urinated in the crate, or if she urinated in the crate with access to the pen already available.

At her age, she really should be able to hold it more than 4 or 5 hours if necessary. If she is refusing to go and holding out until you come home, then take her outside, unless your goal is to totally change her potty area. That's where I'm confused.


----------



## woodlandmoon (Jan 15, 2008)

When she peed in the crate she was closed in it, no access to potty anywhere else. I know she can hold it longer because she does at night. I think she was just so upset is why she peed. I would like for her to be able to go in the litter pan if we're gone longer than expected or when the weather is really bad. I'm wondering if that's a bad idea at this point. I just hate feeling like I can never leave for fear of her peeing in her crate because she's upset and then her starting to get used to peeing in her crate and doing it all the time.


----------



## woodlandmoon (Jan 15, 2008)

Not sure if that was any clearer.  I guess to answer your question--yes, I'd like to create a place where's she's free to eliminate when I'm not home. Thanks so much for any and all suggestions.


----------



## woodlandmoon (Jan 15, 2008)

Also, someone has mentioned a puppy room or a dog room. How is that set up? Thanks.


----------



## woodlandmoon (Jan 15, 2008)

The reason I have her in the pen right now is to try to get her used to going in the pan so she knows it's ok. I'm afraid if I just left her with the pan when I was gone without first getting her used to it she wouldn't know what to do.


----------



## Sissygirl (Aug 8, 2007)

I would think that if you aren't going to be gone for more than 4/5 hours she could hold it. Since she learned to go outside maybe that is her preferred way to go.

Sissy is totally housebroken to go outside. She will hold it for however long I am gone. She has never had an accident in the house since she was only 2 months old.

Maybe is you just worked on the separation anxiety the potty training will come, also.

A couple of times when it was just raining cats and dogs I tried to put paper down in the garage and coaxed Sissy to go on paper - she absolutely would not do it. We got our rain gear on and out we went.


----------



## woodlandmoon (Jan 15, 2008)

Progress!!! I finally found a combo she was comfortable with. I'd tried the pee pads in the holders and the litter in the litter pans and even put rocks and sod in the litter pans with no luck after days of trying. I knew she had to go a few minutes ago so I put a pee pad in a holder and then put some litter, leaves, sod and rocks on top. She went right to it and peed! She got immediate praise. I think the sides on the litter box were upsetting to her. (I have the big dog litter one with the high sides).

I think I'll stick with using rocks and grass on top of the pee pad in the holder that way it will feel like it does when she goes outside and hopefully she won't get confused and start peeing everywhere. 

I'm still wondering what size I should make the ex-pen when I'll be out of the house for 5 or 6 hours. Should there be room to play in between the kennel and potty area or not? I know she can hold it that long, but if she gets upset she will probably urinate and I want her to have an appropriate place to do that.

I hope I don't regret this in a few days and find her pottying everywhere! Right now I just feel relief that maybe she'll use the potty area as opposed to her kennel if I'm out longer than expected. :whoo:


----------



## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Ha ha! I had to smile at your victory!

When I set up a small confined area for a dog, I like a crate for napping if they'd like, food & water closer to the crate and the potty pad as far from the food & water as possible. It doesn't need to be very big, especially if she is upset with you leaving because she probably won't play much in that state of mind.


----------



## woodlandmoon (Jan 15, 2008)

I've been so obsessed with this for days I'm wondering what I will do with all my free time now that I don't have to research various litter boxes, sod boxes, pee pads etc.


----------



## HayCarambaMama (Dec 8, 2007)

My girl is only 6 months old. She's crated when I leave and she can easily hold it 4-5 hours if I'm ever gone that long. She even holds it 10 hours at night. I've trained her to go outside only. I think it's easier that way, but I think you can train your pup to go in either place if you want to.


----------



## fictionqueen (Jan 26, 2008)

Puppies metabolism is slower at night, which is why they do not have to get up to potty. As they get older they can hold it longer and longer during the day if you are not at home. I think it is a mistake to train a good dog who is going outside all the time to go indoors. Having an accident once in a while is only going to reinforce the outdoor training if handled correctly. It was surely tragic for your girl to go potty in her crate, but the lesson she learned was that even though you left her alone in her crate you do come back and let her out. My boy is 4.5 months old and we have a party every time he goes potty out side(yes, even when it's -16 out there) lots of "Yaaaaay", "Good Potty!" and "Your the Potty Dog." I think he *likes* to go just because it's so interesting to see what *I* will do. LOL. When I would catch him having an accident it was "NNNNOOOO" and "Bad Potty" while I was scooping him up and running for the door(sometimes messy, that) I think they get it faster when the reaction is so different.  My Winston knows I will be there to let him out if he can just be patient. Now your little girl needs to get to know that about you as you have only had her for a litle while. I would never use a pad in the house(just my preference) because I want Winston to only think outside potty is "good potty"


----------



## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

woodlandmoon said:


> I've been so obsessed with this for days I'm wondering what I will do with all my free time now that I don't have to research various litter boxes, sod boxes, pee pads etc.


Post to the forum :biggrin1:
Congratulations on your victory. Her kennel size can be anything you and she feel comfortable with. Some use a gated kitchen for an area, some use a kennel.
I potty train puppies in an expen with food on one side, water and food on the other, and potty pads in another area.
Since you have a dog with seperation anxiety, have you tried looking into NILF?


----------



## woodlandmoon (Jan 15, 2008)

Well, that was a short lived victory.  I realized that she was very upset about going on the soil/rock/pad box but went in it because there were no other options. She was really distressed. Then when I took it out to clean it up she peed in the x-pen repeatedly. I think she had just not relieved herself thoroughly in the box. Then I left for a bit and there was a HUGE mess to clean up and she was a wreck. Mud, poo and rocks everywhere. 

The next day I dismantled the x-pen and acted like she was a new pup and went to step 1 with the crate and tethering her to me. She was calm and happy all day! She was in the crate a lot but I wanted to reinforce going outside etc. I left for an hour she peed in the crate I cleaned it up without fanfare and then she went outside and finished. She was upset but seemed a bit calmer than when I left her in the x-pen. 

My husband thought of something I wish we would have thought of before. This morning we crated our Lab and put Poppins (the name du jour) in her own crate beside the lab and put towels on the sides of the crate not facing the Lab, so all she can see is the Lab. I went upstairs for awhile (both dogs had treats etc) and everything was fine! I heard Poppins whine and then our Lab barked and then all was quiet. I went down and let them out and the Lab climbed in the Hav's crate and ate the rest of her treats!!!!! ound: It was so funny to see her squeeze in there. Then I put them both back in their own crates and there was blissful silence (well except for the lab chewing on her rawhide). I'm going to try this in increments to see how it goes. I'm hoping to build up to an hour or so and then leave for just a bit.

I think with Poppins being a year and being used to her crate (she was crate trained) and going outside I think it's too upsetting for her to change to an x-pen and going inside. She's already had a lot of changes, I hate to confuse her more and cause her more distress. She also used to being around other dogs (she was living with other Havs and the family's other dogs too) so I think crating her next to our Lab when we're going out will help. I'm hoping anyway. I feel like I can't leave my house and it's not a fun feeling. She's a wonderful dog but I do have to buy groceries etc.

Thanks for everyone's input. It's so good to hear advice.


----------



## Guest (Feb 12, 2008)

How is everything working for you now? 

Can you leave the house to get Milk & bread?


----------



## woodlandmoon (Jan 15, 2008)

Things are soooo much better now. I've left for 3 hours a few times and once lost track of time and it was 4 hours. Every time she was dry!!! Once when I returned home she was even completely quiet and just sitting in her crate beside the Lab who was in hers. I think if we left her without the Lab she would get upset and soil her crate again but as long as they're beside each other so far so good!

Also, I think going back to square one with crate training/tethering and only going outside to potty has been a huge relief to her and us. Everyone is so much happier and maybe I won't have to start buying Nature's Miracle by the truckload after all.


----------



## Guest (Feb 12, 2008)

Good to hear!

Glad things are moving along well and your lab doesn't mind helping out


----------



## DAJsMom (Oct 27, 2006)

Sounds like things are going better. Maybe she just needs the company of your other dog while you are gone. A move to a new home at a year is a big change, and it may take longer than you were expecting for her to completely adjust, but it will happen! We adopted an older puppy also. It did take her longer to adjust to our family after being raised by her breeder, but we've had her a year, and she's definitely a part of the family now.


----------



## Cyndy (Feb 13, 2008)

*COCONUT*

Hi, I am new. My boy Coconut is 2 and lately he has been regressing as far as peeing in the house. He has never done this and also he has been waking me in the middle of the night to let him out and he has also NEVER done this; even when he was a baby he was quiet at night, but now he will not stop whimpering & scratching at the door until I get up. The only thing I can think of is his schedule for the past couple of weeks has been different due to so much rain & cold, but still he has access to the deck (when I am there I leave the door open for him) when I can't take him walking. I'm very concerned.
Should I start crating him again? PLEASE HELP...


----------



## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Hi Cyndy! :welcome: to the forum.

It sounds like Coconut might have a bladder infection. This causes them to pee a lot more than usual and can cause them to have accidents as they can't hold it. Please take him to the vet ASAP so he can be tested to see if this is indeed the problem!


----------



## Cyndy (Feb 13, 2008)

Thank you! I will; I never thought he could have a bladder infection ' cuz he's always been so healthy, but what would cause that I wonder?.......

Appreciate your thoughts and I'll try to post pictures soon.


----------



## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Cyndy, bladder and urinary infections in dogs are caused by bacteria in the urinary tract or the bladder itself. It's basically the same principle as on humans when we get UTI's. It's a relatively common problem and nothing that shows that Coconut has bad health or anything like that, so don't worry about that!

And yes, please post pictures when you can!


----------



## Cyndy (Feb 13, 2008)

I was just reading on the internet that Apple Cider Vinegar is supposed to be
a great cure for that and other things like allergies and be good for their coat; some people just add 1/2 tspn to their dogs food every day.
Do you happen to know anything about it? It's supposed to be good for humans too, but I have never heard such a thing before.
As long as it's not harmful, guess it coud'nt hurt to try.


----------



## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

I have never heard of using Apple Cider Vinegar for that. I have heard of cranberry juice, which helps. The acidity in the vinegar probably is what makes it effective. Also, I would only use it if this is a recurring problem (like if Coconut gets an infection 3 or 4 times a year). Since it has only happened once, I wouldn't worry about adding anything to his food as of yet and just take him to the vet this time for the antibiotics so it can be gotten rid of quickly.


----------



## Cyndy (Feb 13, 2008)

Ok thanks for your advice; I'll take him tomorrow.

By the way, I guess that is a pic of your little one? He (?) is REALLY cute!
Don't you just love this breed? I can't believe how much I love my dog!!!


----------



## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

I hope the vet can tell you something then! 

Yes, that is my Kubrick. I am so in love with him and I do adore Havs! Kubrick knows plenty well just how cute he is and uses it to his advantage.


----------



## Cyndy (Feb 13, 2008)

*Coconut*

Well, I took him to the vet and they said he was starting to form 'crystals' and so diagnosed a kidney infection. They gave me antibiotics to give him for 2 weeks (also suggested a prescription food, but I'm reserved about that thus far). So, THANK YOU - I'm so glad I took him in first. I was thinking about crating him for a few days and that would have been such a wrong thing to do since something was wrong with him!
I sure hope this does it. It scares me that it is a 'kidney infection' instead of bladder, UTI. It just sounds more serious to me!
If this doesn't do it, they are going to do an x-ray to see if he has stones.


----------



## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Glad to read the vet was able to tell you what's wrong w/Coconut and give him the meds he needs to recover. I'm sure the antibiotics will have him feeling fine and back on his regular schedule in no time 

BTW~ :welcome:


----------



## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Cyndy, I am so glad that you took Coconut to the vet and now he is on antibiotics! He will get better very soon, you'll see. As far as the kidney infection, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Kidney infections are basically like bladder infections that have "moved up" and caused the formation of crystals in the urine. It is very common and nothing at all to be worried about, unless it's something that happens often or if he has stones, which can be painful but are curable.

I hope that Coconut feels better soon and I think this deserves a nice picture!


----------



## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

Just wanted to say welcome to Cindy and Coconut. I just caught up on this thread, and I am so glad you were able to take coconut to the vet and get things diagnosed. Now, I think someone here mentioned pictures:biggrin1:


----------



## Cyndy (Feb 13, 2008)

*COCONUT*

Thanks guys! He is already getting much better, no accidents since he started on the meds. And I know it sounds crazy, but he seems grateful, he
has been so affectionate, haha!
Do you know anything about the Hill's C/D food? I hope I am making the right decision not to put him on that. I just figure the vet gets a cut for recommending it........
I'm attaching a couple of pics when he was a baby. More recent ones are still on my camera, I'll send another time.


----------



## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

What a cutie patootie Coconut is! I'm glad we were able to give you the right hints to get his infection checked out and that he's doing much better! We need MORE pics please


----------



## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Coconut is just adorable! Love the pics. 

And yes you did right by not putting him on Hills. It's not that great of a food at all and the vet DOES get a cut by selling it to you.


----------



## Cyndy (Feb 13, 2008)

*COCONUT*

Thank you! I really was worried; I NEVER would have dreamed I would feel this way about a dog. Now I do all the things I used to think were so dumb when other people did them. I send pictures and talk about him and baby talk to him; I even just bought him some yellow pajamas with a duck on the back; LOL - I really need to take some pics of that!
My family was always telling me I should get a dog; now they CAN NOT believe the transformation. I just wasn't much of an animal person - at least I didn't think so. Life's funny.......


----------

