# Cost comparison chart: raw vs kibble vs canned



## Deacon Blues (Nov 22, 2013)

Since we've been on the topic lately I made up a chart that should make it easy to see the cost differences between the various Havanese feeding regimens.

No one is judging and what you feed your dog doesn't represent how much you love it. Do some research and feed the best you can, based on what's available in your area, and what you can afford.

I picked these brands because I'm familiar with Darwin's, and Primal has been mentioned here often. I chose Canidae for the chart because it's considered a premium grain-free food that is well-reviewed and has a 5-star rating on Dog Food Advisor. I chose Beneful for the chart because it's readily available and I happened to see it at the grocery store.

One note: you can reduce the cost of Primal by doing as Dave T. suggests and forgoing the 'exotic' ingredients to hold out as alternatives in the event your dog develops a food allergy. In the case of Primal, the pheasant and rabbit are way higher than the beef and chicken and drive the average cost up.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

good stuff Gary.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Muchas gracias Tio Gary. Your chart is very helpful.

su amigo, Ricky Ricardo


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

Gary - Great looking chart and detailed analysis. I didn't realize Primal was so expensive. I occasionally feed Emmie it but mainly feed her ZiwiPeak and Honest Kitchen. I'll have to cost them all out. I'm also thinking of trying Darwin's as their intro special is such a good deal but I don't have a large freezer so that could be a challenge.


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## Deacon Blues (Nov 22, 2013)

MarinaGirl said:


> I'm also thinking of trying Darwin's as their intro special is such a good deal but I don't have a large freezer so that could be a challenge.


Hi Jeanne, I also don't have a large freezer; just one of the kind above the fridge. I had to cut out the Ben & Jerry's to make room, but it fits. This is a 10-week shipment:


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Deacon Blues said:


> Hi Jeanne, I also don't have a large freezer; just one of the kind above the fridge. I had to cut out the Ben & Jerry's to make room, but it fits. This is a 10-week shipment:


Tio Gary, your freezer is a riot! ound: Orowheat double fiber (good) and ham and cheeze scramble, pizza, and espagettis (maybe not so good, but I'm with you on thIs one amigo, tastier than doubler fiber cardboard). Buen provecho, bon appetit, enjoy! To bad you don't have a Darwin's diet for you peoples!

Tio Gary, you eat like mi Popi, you are a good peoples. eace:

besos, Ricky Ricardo


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## sandypaws (Aug 8, 2012)

Looks like Rory is eating better than you, Gary. Giving up your Ben & Jerry's, wow, what we won't do for our Havs!


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

Thanks for the analysis! Very interesting. The other variable is vet bills. It would be interesting to compare the vet bills (outside of wellness) for dogs on raw versus kibble. 

My hav is a little over two, he has never been to the vet outside of wellness. He's never had an ear infection, no allergies, nada (knock on wood). 

I did have to take my lab (he's ten) to the vet this year for a stomach issue. With him though he has a tendency to eat things he shouldnt (toy parts, things of the ground etc.) so that could have been the reason. I try to keep close tabs on him but not always easy. 

I dont give my dogs heartworm medication either, and their vaccination schedule is very limited. I do use flea protection from time to time but only when I feel like I have to when the holistic approach isnt working.


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## Sassy's Mom (Feb 4, 2015)

Is Darwin as good as Primal. My local pet store has the Primal freeze-dried and I switched Sassy to that and she loves it. Licks the bowl clean, when I fed her the Acana she would only eat a little. Is the freeze-dried as good as the frozen?
Nadine


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Sassy's Mom said:


> Is Darwin as good as Primal. My local pet store has the Primal freeze-dried and I switched Sassy to that and she loves it. Licks the bowl clean, when I fed her the Acana she would only eat a little. Is the freeze-dried as good as the frozen?
> Nadine


Food Type heirarchy Sabine

Fresh food, raw
Fresh food, cooked
Frozen fresh prepared or raw, freeze dried, dehydrated
Canned food
Dry food


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Dr. Karen Becker breaks it down further . Note no. 13 ;look at 8 and 9 lol

The List of Best-to-Worst Foods

1.A balanced, raw, homemade diet is the best food you can feed your dog or cat. It will be nutritionally balanced because you're following recipes like those found in the cookbook I co-authored, Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats. 

Raw means the food is unadulterated and still contains all the enzymes and nutrients that are typically destroyed during cooking or other types of processing.

Homemade is the best option because you are in complete control of the quality of ingredients in your pet's diet.

I recommend pets get plenty of nutritional variety, and another great thing about serving homemade is you can buy seasonal fruits and veggies on sale, as well as protein sources (meats), and use them in rotation. 
2.The next best thing you can feed your pet is a commercially available raw diet. This is a raw food diet that someone else has done the heavy lifting to prepare. 

It's important that the diet is balanced, and you should be aware that there are raw food pet diets entering the market that are not yet proven to be nutritionally complete. These foods often say "For supplementation or intermittent feeding" on the label.

You'll know if the raw food you've selected is balanced because it will say it right on the packaging: "This food has been proven to be nutritionally complete or adequate for all life stages." 

At the present time, these diets are found only in the freezer section of small/privately owned or upscale pet boutiques – not in the big box pet stores. You can also find a selection online.
3.Cooked, balanced homemade diet. It's the same diet found in number 1, above, except that it's cooked. This means some of the nutrient composition has been diminished through processing. 
4.Human-grade canned food. If the label doesn't say the ingredients are human grade, they're not. Pet food made with human-grade ingredients is also a great deal more expensive, so that's another way to tell what you're getting.

This type of diet is the most expensive you can feed your pet. What I tell my clients is, "If you have more money than time, you can purchase human-grade canned food for your dog or cat. But if you have more time than money, I recommend you make a balanced, homemade diet right in your own kitchen for a fraction of the cost."
5.Human-grade dry food. As I discussed earlier, dry food is not as species-appropriate as a moisture-dense diet. Human grade is very important because the food is approved, in theory, for human consumption, which means it doesn't contain low quality rendered by-products. 
6.Super premium canned food which can be found at big box pet supply stores like Petco and PetSmart. 
7.Super premium dry food. 
8.Veterinary-recommended canned food. Vet recommended canned foods are purchased at your vet's office or clinic. Typical brands are Science Diet, the Purina veterinary lines, Royal Canin and Waltham. 
9.Veterinary-recommended dry food. 
10.Grocery store brand canned food. 
11.Grocery store brand dry food. 
12.Semi-moist pouched food.

The reason this type of pet food is so far down the list is because in order for the food to remain "semi-moist," an ingredient called propylene glycol is added. This is a scary preservative that is a second cousin to ethylene glycol, which is antifreeze. And while propylene glycol is approved for use in pet foods, it is unhealthy for dogs and cats. I do not recommend feeding any food that contains this additive. 
13.Dead last on the list and the worst thing you can feed your pet is an unbalanced, homemade diet – raw or cooked. I'm seeing an increasing number of misguided pet owners in my practice who think they're doing the right thing by serving their pet, say, a chicken breast and some veggies and calling it a day.

Yes, the food is homemade, but it's nutritionally unbalanced. Pets being fed this way are showing up at my clinic with endocrine abnormalities, skeletal issues and organ degeneration as a result of deficiencies in calcium, trace minerals and omega fatty acids.


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## Sassy's Mom (Feb 4, 2015)

Thanks Dave that answers a lot of questions.
Nadine


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## Deacon Blues (Nov 22, 2013)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Tio Gary, your freezer is a riot! ound: Orowheat double fiber (good) and ham and cheeze scramble, pizza, and espagettis (maybe not so good, but I'm with you on thIs one amigo, tastier than doubler fiber cardboard). Buen provecho, bon appetit, enjoy! To bad you don't have a Darwin's diet for you peoples!
> 
> Tio Gary, you eat like mi Popi, you are a good peoples. eace:
> 
> besos, Ricky Ricardo


Ricky, you missed my Eggo frozen waffles! Breakfast of champions!


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Deacon Blues said:


> Ricky, you missed my Eggo frozen waffles! Breakfast of champions!


ound: I LOOOOOOOVE little pieces of Eggo waffles with peanut butter on top! I'll do the Mambo for one of those pieces! :biggrin1:

besos, Ricky Ricardo


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## Deacon Blues (Nov 22, 2013)

I just found out I could save another 10% on my Darwin's order if I did 40 lbs. at a time instead of 20. If you have an actual freezer that would be a great deal. I have an above-fridge and need room for my Eggos and TV dinners.


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## harmony (Jan 18, 2015)

davetgabby said:


> 13.Dead last on the list and the worst thing you can feed your pet is an unbalanced, homemade diet - raw or cooked. I'm seeing an increasing number of misguided pet owners in my practice who think they're doing the right thing by serving their pet, say, a chicken breast and some veggies and calling it a day.
> 
> Yes, the food is homemade, but it's nutritionally unbalanced. Pets being fed this way are showing up at my clinic with endocrine abnormalities, skeletal issues and organ degeneration as a result of deficiencies in calcium, trace minerals and omega fatty acids.


Yes, this. We are feeding our dogs homemade right now, but I avoided homemade for years because I didn't think I could do it in a nutritionally balanced way. I do not use Sabine, like many of you here, but the meals I make for the dogs come with a complete nutritional breakdown that makes it easy to be certain they're getting everything they need. And if a certain meal lacks a nutrient (I make a bunch at once, they eat the same meal for about two weeks at a time), I also have a chart of foods that are rich in that nutrient, so I can supplement.


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## Hsusa (Dec 21, 2014)

This is a great thread. So much is spelled out and it demystifies the raw food question quite a bit. So many forum members are believers in the raw diet. Was it health issues, like allergies, that caused you to go in this direction? Or just a conviction that raw is better?


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

I just went to see my Vet for a checkup. Popi and mi had a talk about doggie food. Mi Vet IS NOT a fan of raw diets for domesticated pets. He says that too many things can go wrong with a raw diet like salmonella poisoning and raw diets are not necessarily nutritionally better than kibble. He recommends a high quality kibble like Taste of the Wild or Fromms. He said my Honest Kitchen diet is okay as long as Popi is very careful about keeping it refrigerated.....but he recommends alternating with kibble on a daily basis. He went on to say that 95% of doggies do just fine on kibble for their whole lives, however some doggies may have allergies or intolerances to some foods and this should be discussed with your Vet before automatically switching to a raw diet.

Look, I am just a little doggie and i am only repeating what mi Vet said........so don't throw rocks at mi! :brick:

besos Ricky Ricardo


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Hsusa said:


> This is a great thread. So much is spelled out and it demystifies the raw food question quite a bit. So many forum members are believers in the raw diet.  Was it health issues, like allergies, that caused you to go in this direction? Or just a conviction that raw is better?


if you study it enough you'll find it quite convincing that the less processed a food is, the healthier it will be. Raw is not the answer for all dogs. When you talk with nutrition experts they even will acknowledge that they have some dogs that just don't tolerate raw. Then you could go with other options like home cooked or even human grade canned food. Kibble generally is not anywhere near as healthy but for some it is an option.

Most vitamins (and the mineral potassium) are sensitive to heat and water. Water-soluble vitamins (and potassium), especially most of the B vitamins and Vitamin C, leach into cooking water. By contrast, Vitamins A, D, and E are fat-soluble and leach into cooking oils. Vitamin C is the most likely to get lost in cooking. (http://healthyeating.sfgate.com/cooking-vitamin-mineral-loss-3853.html)
Enzymes are made up of protein and are extremely heat-sensitive (and pH sensitive as well)/denatured by execess heat or cold as a result. Enzymes serve a number of vital functions, including aiding in the digestion of the nutrients in food, among other things.(http://products.mercola.com/healthypets/digestive-enzymes-for-pet/ and http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Biochemistry/Enzymes)
Fats are also heat-sensitive. Long chain fats tend to have a higher melting point. Likewise, fats that are solid at room temp (like coconut oil or butter) have longer chain lengths than fats that are liquid at room temperature (like fish oil, which contains Omega 3 fatty acids, and olive oil). With chains being equal, unsaturated fats have lower melting points than saturated fats. Therefore, if you're looking to preserve your fats in general, cooking is not ideal.(http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...thing-you-need-to-know-about-fatty-acids.aspx)
Proteins are denatured by cooking in a process much better described by this health food website than I can, at http://jonbarron.org/article/food-raw-versus-cooked#.VRrlh0vxbrI. As you can see by examining cooking's effect on Enzymes and Probiotics, both of which consist largely or entirely of protein, denaturation of proteins affects more than just the meat protein itself.
Probiotics are heated out of food when cooked. Bacteria are largely made up of proteins, which means that when those bacteria are heated to denature proteins, the bacteria are subsequently killed off when their structure is broken down. This is part of the reason you are told to wash your hands with hot water (!) and soap when handling any raw food items. http://jonbarron.org/article/food-raw-versus-cooked#.VRrlh0vxbrI


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Ricky Ricardo;952273" He said my Honest Kitchen diet is okay as long as Popi is very careful about keeping it refrigerated.....but he recommends alternating with kibble on a daily basis. He went on to say that 95% of doggies do just fine on kibble for their whole lives said:


> Sorry , your vets rational just doesn't cut it. Shame on him. I like Sabine's take on this sort of lame argument ...." I've always fed __ food to my dog and he did just fine
> 
> While there is nothing wrong with feeding a particular food if your dog does well on it and you feel comfortable feeding it, the question is whether you have a basis of comparison and whether the formulation of the food has changed over time. I have seen the effect a better food can have on my own dog. When I adopted him from the shelter, he was a thin little puppy with a brittle coat and a rather strong "doggie odor". I didn't know better yet, fed an average quality food and thought the change in his appearance was stunning, except for the severe reactions he still showed whenever he picked up the occasional flea and got bitten before it died. He had gained weight, the odor improved and his coat was softer and shinier. I was happy and didn't think that any further improvement was possible - until he had been eating a really high quality food for about a month. His allergy to flea bites disappeared entirely, the muscle tone became much more defined, his coat even glossier, softer and most important, much, much denser. The doggie odor vanished.
> 
> If I hadn't at least given the better food a try, feeding it long enough to see results (depending on the individual dog this takes about 4-8 weeks), I would still have been convinced that my dog "did just fine" on the lesser quality food. Now I clearly see the difference between "doing just fine" and truly thriving. Every step up the "quality ladder" will bring improvements, the stray dog who used to survive mostly on garbage will do better once he gets a daily ration of even a relatively cheap food because it supplies more essential nutrients; and a dog who was fed a grocery store brand is guaranteed to improve on a better quality product as well"


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

davetgabby said:


> I have seen the effect a better food can have on my own dog. When I adopted him from the shelter, he was a thin little puppy with a brittle coat and a rather strong "doggie odor". I didn't know better yet, fed an average quality food and thought the change in his appearance was stunning, except for the severe reactions he still showed whenever he picked up the occasional flea and got bitten before it died. He had gained weight, the odor improved and his coat was softer and shinier. I was happy and didn't think that any further improvement was possible - until he had been eating a really high quality food for about a month. His allergy to flea bites disappeared entirely, the muscle tone became much more defined, his coat even glossier, softer and most important, much, much denser. The doggie odor vanished.


Por favor. I am not trying to start an argument, I love all peoples, just trying to understand the logic. How can you be sure that the change in your dog was the result of change in diet rather than a change in environment? How do you know that changing to some other diet rather than raw, would not have had the same results? Mi Vet says that too many of these decisions on what to feed are not based on controlled scientific research. He says that there is research that shows that a nutritionally well balanced kibble meets the dietary and health needs of most dogs. It is his concern that often these decisions about raw diets are based on unsubstantiated, unscientific opinion.



> the question is whether you have a basis of comparison and whether the formulation of the food has changed over time.


Exactly! And that is the same question mi Vet has for the advocates of a raw diet.



> Every step up the "quality ladder" will bring improvements, the stray dog who used to survive mostly on garbage will do better once he gets a daily ration of even a relatively cheap food because it supplies more essential nutrients; and a dog who was fed a grocery store brand is guaranteed to improve on a better quality product as well"


Can you direct mi to the study that proves that, other than anecdotal opinion?

Gracias y paz, Ricky Ricardo


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I posted the science about what cooking does to food.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

http://go.epublish4me.com/ebook/ebook?id=10018049#/36


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

sometimes anecdotal advice from trusted well respected professionals is worth just as much as science.

__
https://28418118490%2Fpets-react-commercial-pet-foods%23.VR7kh410zIV


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## Hsusa (Dec 21, 2014)

I think that sometimes, when you really want to do the best job you can, you have to become your own expert. That means you might not rely on your vet, who is more used to dealing with the average pet-owner (who might not be careful to refrigerate food, wash with soap and hot water, or make sure that a home-cooked diet is nutritionally balanced.) They may have seen dogs who got into trouble because the owner didn't really understand the right way to administer the diet. This could make a vet reluctant to recommend a diet that is different.


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