# Importing dogs



## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

I was wondering if anyone has bought a Havanese dog from Hungary? I would love to hear from someone who knows about breeders in Hungray. Why do our breeders here import dogs from Hungary?


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

As in this country, there are good and bad breeders in Hungary too. Many dogs in pet stores come from Hungary. There are good breeders in Hungary too. Sometimes breeders here are importing to get new "blood" in their lines. Like the Cuban lines. Here in the U.S. we can't import from Cuba, but in Hungary they can.


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

I have also heard but how true I am not sure. AKC is not excepting the imported dogs so you can not reg . threw AKC has any one herd of this ?


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

The AKC does register these dogs, if you go to the AKC site they have a page on registry services for imported dogs.


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

The only reason why I ask I know of a breeder that is or was saling some nice puppys that just found out that they where not going to let people reg imported dogs to the AKC its something that just started or getting ready to start. I will ask the breeder that told me this.He is a known breeder . The puppys that he had he was planing on showing them but he said he cant not since AKC will not let him reg, out of country dogs.


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## Havlady (Aug 2, 2006)

Who is importing them? Most of the dogs from Hungary are coming in at auction and being sold to the puppy mills. I think an occasional breeder may import a dog (I have one from Germany and one from England) but only to expand our lines a little. I don't think there is much health testing going on in Hungary and the bulk of the dogs are going to backyard breeders, brokers and mills. The auctions are bringing them in by the cart load. My imports are AKC registered but it involves a little more paperwork. At AKC it is all about the Stud Book and many imports cannot be proven to be Havanese. Hence AKC won't register them. Russia does not recognise the Havanese but I have heard of Russian Havanese imports. So how would you know??????


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

Hi 
I just recently meet someone who had bought a dog from Hungary and to me it seemed like they thought it was quite a kudo .. Like this particular dog came from royalty and mine was of the Heinz variety ..Her Daddy really puffed out his chest when he told me about her .. . I did not know anything about them coming from there but just said Congratulations. I sure she is a wonderful dog .. 
I do know there are breeders in the Netherlands and their dogs are well respected . The dogs are larger than the ones here in the states . Some of them weigh up to 22 pounds .. 
I have a friend who lives in the Netherlands and at one point I was thinking of going there to get a dog ..
I am curious if Canadian Breeders can buy dogs from Cuba . Just curious .. 
The good news so far and I am just asking you breeders who log on because you are my source of information is that they are not breeding tea cup Havanese and really creating even more problems and another bad reputation for health issues ....


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

Don't know anything about Hungary. But FYI I did find Russian Havs that they call Bolanka. I know one breeder that breeds them. They are registered under rare breeds and need to get a larger number in US to register with the AKC. Just thought I would share..........Don't know a lot though.

Oops. I meant to say Russian Bolonka which are similar to Havs. They are a separate breed though. Thanks Julia for noticing that.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Havlady
I agree with you. I have been to 3 local pet stores and they brag that teir Havs are imported from Hungary. Also, we have a couple of people on Long Island who advertise in the newspaper. When you call them, they will tell you they do not breed, but the puppies are imported. 

Can anyone tell me what happens to the dogs that do not sell at a pet store? Or don't I want to know??? No one can ever give me an answer.


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Rita,

Actually Havanese and Bolonka are two completely different dogs. The breed is actually called Tsvetnaya Bolonka, which means colored Bolonka. It was developed in St. Petersburg by crossing a Bichon Frise with Shih Tzu. If you want to read more about it, here's the links: 
http://www.rarebreed.com/breeds/tb/descrip.html


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

Thanks Julia. I guess I said that wrong, Russian Havs. I know that Bolonkas are a different breed but I guess I never heard of Havs from Russia. I think it was Joan that brought up Russia doesn't recognize the Havanese. So, I just wanted to note about the Bolonka. It seems to me that if you are not careful, there are other breeds that remind you of the Havanese but are really not. I bet you people try to pass them off as Havs.


I do see now that in the book "The Havanese" they point out the gene pool of the Havanese expanded in this decade because of inports from Russia and Hungrary. Hav were registered in Hungary for 10 years before they were accepted by the AKC. Interesting..........The book does warn that many Russian bred Havs are not eligible for AKC (they are sent mostly to puppy mills).

I guess you really have to do your research especially when looking out of the US.


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Rita,

A friend of mine fell in love with the Havs after she met Bugsy and started to look for a Havanese breeder without consulting me first. She almost ended up with a Havanese that was bread from mom and dad that came from Russia, but luckily decided against the puppy. Now she is getting a puppy from a breeder in Souther California (that's where she lives) that does all the health testing, shows her dogs and is involved in the local Havanese club.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Most of them are sold in pet stores. One place in Manhattan sells them for $4000. There have been some good dogs that came out of Hungary but I only know of good ones from one breeder there, but of course that doesn't mean that there aren't more. It's been said that more are bred there than are spayed. Some folks went there to get some DNA in case there were any without some of the blood we have mixed in with ours. I THINK it turns out there weren't any. Being from Hungary is neither necessarily a good or bad thing. The breeder has to know what they are doing. But if I had money to bet on puppies from there or here being more healthy overall I wouldn't bet against us. The biggest reason they are imported from there is that they are cheap and people here will buy them.

Havanese were bred here a lot longer than 10 years before they were recognized by the AKC. AKC is relatively new for the breed. AKC doesn't recognize Cuba for acceptance even though that's actually the country of origin. AKC lists country of origin as "Mediterranian". Some dogs have been imported into Hungary from Cuba and their offspring registered with AKC after importing here. That's the only way the genepool has been expanded. Some of these people know and care about what they are doing. Sadly, the majority of the numbers coming in here are not these people.


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

Research. Research. Research. It is wonderful that we have this forum. Thanks again Melissa.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

I just wondered why get a dog from all the way from Hungray when there are alot here? And some breeders don't fly puppies so how do the get from Hungary? Would it not be along trip for a dog?[/QUOTE]

Because most of those breeders will sell dogs/bitches with full breeding rights and no strings. Which by the way isn't improving the breed is it?


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

The not reg with AKC dogs from out of country is happening this year if I understood him right this is why he can show 2 of his puppys and some other ones too. This is what he was told by AKC and these dogs came from Cuba I was just wondering if any one else has heard of this??


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Dog's from Cuba can't be AKC registered.


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## snfager (Sep 29, 2006)

Where does the Bolognese fit into this? Are they the same as the Tsvetnaya Bolonks?


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

Bolognese are a rare breed from Italy. Bolonkas are a rare breed from Russia. They both are believed to have ancestry to the Bichon family though. Gets confusing............


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Kathy said:


> Dog's from Cuba can't be AKC registered.


I think Cuban Havs are eligible for registration with the CKC, here in Canada, though, right? Not too sure, but I think I've read about some breeders getting a Cuban dam or sire and breeding.

I had considered the Bolognese at one time, but I love the variety of colors and personalities of the Havanese.


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## tchrviv (Apr 2, 2007)

*Pups from Hungary*

My 2 yr. old was bought from a very reliable pet store. Poco's parents were from Hungary, and were apparently bought from a breeder in the mid -west, so he was born in the US. Poco is absolutely adorable, smart and we are so lucky to have him. Hope this helps. We'd love to mate him, if anyone has a female in the San Diego area.


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## JodiM (Dec 28, 2006)

Pet stores are NOT a reliable source for a dog. They are normally nothing more than dogs from a puppy mill. (Not saying your store is, just that is the norm)

Has your dog had any of his health testing done? You might want to make sure and put that out there before asking for anyone to breed to him.. that is very important. 

Also, I don't know that Melissa would want you to publicly advertise like that on this board~ as that is not what this board is about.


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## Havlady (Aug 2, 2006)

*Pet Store pups*

No reliable breeders sell to pet stores. Dogs coming into this country from Hungary are mostly sold at auction to commericial breeders (ones that sell to pet shops). You have no guarantee that anything coming in via Hungary or commercial breeder is even full havanese.
Has anything been health tested behind him? Has yours? CERF, HIPS, Patellas, BAER?
Have you shown your boy and know he is worthy of breeding?

You just don't breed a dog because he is cute. You need to make sure he conforms to the breed standard, has all health testing and is worthy of breed.
JMHO!


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

> No reliable breeders sell to pet stores.


 In addition to this, it is so frowned upon that most breed clubs and dog clubs will remove your membership for doing so.


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

I think a lot of us Mommies are just so enamored by our dogs and we forget that the AKC has rules and regulations about breeding .
It is not like when our cat Zooey got pregnant and we did not know who the father was but my she did have lovely kittens 
I know with my dog Asta I felt the same way . He had a breeding quirk but I thought he had such charm and personality characteristics that would if I had bred him he would have had wonderful pups . 
Before I found out about his teeth I enquired as to what was necessary to breed him . I realized there was a big commitment showing him so he got the required number of points . Once he had his irregularity with his teeth I knew it was not going to happen .
However I still think he would have wonderful Dad and I would loved to have had one of his puppies now that he is gone ..


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Now why is it that I completely forgot about this thread??! I reread the posts just now and am thankful that Sammy, who is from Hungary, was NOT purchased at a pet shop. Anyway, I would never have considered getting any pup from one no matter where they originated. Just my feelings about it.

Sammy's breeder has a website showing they also breed Maltese and Yorkshire Terriers. Not a good sign when a breeder is busy with more than one or two breeds! As I've mentioned in the thread "Not Completely Hav", we aren't sure just how 'pure' a Havanese Sammy is. The breeders assured his previous owner whose son brought Sammy over by plane back in Oct. that he was from chamption Hav parents. I've looked into the dam and sire and they are health-tested as well as champions in Hungary. Thing is, Sammy has the stature of a Yorkie so who knows what happened...... or he could simply be the 'runt' of a Hav. litter - which is what we are starting to think more and more. 

I am waiting on papers from his previous owners' son who is mailing them shortly. Once I get the pedigree papers, I will contact the breeder directly and ask a few questions... simply to ease my curiosity. 

As to breeding any dog bought from a pet shop - NO WAY would I recommend that!!  There MUST be a thorough investigation into that dog's lineage, health testing and medical history before even considering such a thing. Not to mention that this dog will never be registered with AKC or CKC I don't think.


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Marj - Sammy could just be on the small side of the Havanese standard. Doesn't it say that your dog can be as samll as 8 1/2" tall and weigh 7 lbs and you could still show him (providing that he was show quality)?


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Yes, Julia, I think that weight-wise Sammy is among the standard, but there are a lot of things not quite typical of a Hav. His tail is tightly curled like a pig's tail - too cute!  He wriggles his butt from side to side when he walks, as opposed to prancing with this butt springing up in the air a bit, he isn't muscular nor has that 'strong, solid' appearance of Havs - he looks delicate. For now, Sammy has a single, flat coat of straight hair. If he blows his coat and it changes in the next couple of months (he's 8 mths. now) then he'll look more like a Hav. He is started to show some wavy hair on the top of his head that wasn't there a week ago.

I got this from the HCA:* "In both structure and gait, the Havanese is not easily mistaken for any other breed. "*

Sammy can look a bit Yorkie-ish rather than the typical Havanese, but again, he may just be the runt of the litter. Everything about him is proportionate, just much smaller than the usual Hav. I haven't measured him yet, the legs, back and front.

... Just measured him and he is about 9" tall at the hind legs and barely over 9" tall at the front legs. He's about 12" long from back of his neck to the end of his rump. It seems that his height is standard but he's a bit too long in the body.

Oh well.... he's still a cutie-patootie to us and absolutely adorable!


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## tchrviv (Apr 2, 2007)

*Importing dogs response to Jodi M.*

First of all, I found your response to be discriminatory and hurtful. I joined this forum for friendly advice, not scorn. Why should my Havanese, a purebred with papers, be any less valuable than one from a breeder? If he were a rescue dog, would he be given different consideration? The pet stores in San Diego County are highly regulated, therefore, there are very few of them. This one is highly recommended and has regular veterinary visits; the puppies are NOT from puppy mills. My Havanese is in perfect health. He is called "special" by my friends because of his unusual disposition and personality. Several people have inquired about whether or not I plan to breed him, which is why I even put forth that question.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

tchrviv, I'm sure everyone here, including me, will say that you are welcome here and to all the advice available here. But it's just a simple fact that no reputable breeder will sell to or through a pet store no matter where they are. Even the $4000 havanese sold in a pet store in Manhatten come from Hungarian puppy mills. Puppy mills are commercial breeding outfits whose market is pet stores. It is quite possible that you have a really good quality Havanese, but no one other than a backyard breeder will be interested in one to breed without at least a Championship and all the health testing but there is already a LOT of those that people don't breed to. These days there are hundreds with Championships that no one wants to breed to.

Unless it is a dog that really has a lot to offer the future of the breed I wouldn't keep one intact.


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## Havlady (Aug 2, 2006)

*Imports*

What registry is your dog registered with? How are you determining perfect health? Havanese have many health issues and imports for the most part are not health tested.
What health testing have you done? You can read about health testing at www.havanese.org - also a nice section opn buyer education.

Pet shops have to get their pups from somewhere and most are coming from the midwest from brokers or commercial breeders. Brokers and commercial breeders are buying dogs at auction - and many of those are imports. The dogs coming in from Russia as havanese are even more questionable as Russia doesn't even recognize a havanese. No reputable breeders would sell to a pet shop. They choose to place their pups in homes where they have met the buyer and know what kind of life the puppy can expect. Many are on neuter contracts. Did your pup come with full breeding rights?

I am guessing you probably paid more though a pet shop than you would have with a reputable breeder directly. Difference is a breeder would have evaluated the pups and put the pet pups on neuter contracts. No full breeding rights unless the dog is worthy of being bred.
You may have had really good luck with this pet shop but that is not the norm. Puppies from pet shops for the most part are inferior quality and poorly socialized and rarely from health tested parents. I would love to see pictures of your pup.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Apparently, tchrviv fell in love with this puppy in a pet store before getting all the facts. It's not her fault. We know how adorable these puppies are. However, because we love these pups so much, we do go on the defensive when it comes to breeding, and with good reason. We love this breed and don't want to see its bastardization thru improper breeding practices. 

The AKC has set standards for this breed and those standards should be adhered to when breeding. Any reputable breeder is not going to use your puppy without proper championship, testing, etc. 

We are not discriminating because you bought your dog at a pet store. I am sure others on the site have. And not all of us have bought from the best breeders. Not all of us have show dogs, and I would think that most on the forum have Havs as pets only. You just need to be more informed before you decide you want to breed you dog because it is "cute".


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

tchrviv, no one here means to make you feel that your pup is not special. He IS and it is a wonderful blessing that these little dogs come to our lives. From what I understand, is that breeding entails a lot more than simply finding a sire and dam and putting them in a room together. There is much more screening involved to ensure soundness and health in the offspring. And I am not saying you are in any way incapable, so please do not think that, but to be honest as much as we love our dogs, it does not justify breeding it just because we want another one just like that one. Your puppy is unique and no offspring can equal your pup. it is wonderful that your pup has a wonderful dispositon, but that will not guarantee that the litter will have the exact same qualities as your little luv. So please take this advice and don't breed it unless you are willing to show and conform and do all the testing required to ensure your lines are healthy and sound. If you are, then I would suggest you get in touch with a reputable breeder associated with the HCA and begin your breeding by co-owning a pup that will conform and show, and also that this breeder be a mentor to guide you along the way.

I have had a couple dogs in the past, that I miss dearly now that they have passed on, but I know I am not qualified to be breeding any pups. And also, to ensure safe homes for each and every one is extremely important. Sorry for the rant, but please consider what those here have said. Enjoy, your pup and all the wonderful traits he has. And also do not feel you are not welcome to this forum because you are. You can feel free to ask any question regarding your Hav. And please post pictures of your little one, we love to share that with eachother. 

I agree with Irnfit too. My Oreo is a pet havanese as well.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Just a small correction. AKC doesn't set the breed standard. The parent club does-The Havanese Club of America-commonly referred to as the HCA. The AKC does have to approve the standard that the HCA presents.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Thanks Tom. That's probably what I meant, just didn't say it very well.


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

Hi Tom 
I knew you set me straight as to where the standard came from . 
It seems to me that they prefer the dog to be smaller like a maltese . Just checking but that is what I am thinking ..


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## Havlady (Aug 2, 2006)

*Maltese*

A maltese is 4-6 pounds. Havanese are 8.5-11.5 inches - there is no weight listed any more - but average size is 10-14 pounds.
Maltese has a single coat. Hav's have a double.
You need to read both standards - there are quite a few differences.


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## CapotesMom (Apr 3, 2007)

Just came across this thread. In doing my research in the past month, I think that it's just as dangerous to buy a dog from overseas as it is to buy one here. The people that said 'research research research' are absolutely right. Capote's lines come from Hungary on his sire's side, but on his dam's side, he's champion sired. The breeder wanted to introduce new blood into the line, but still retain their quality. Capote is coming with full AKC registration and all his papers for the lines he's coming from. It's really just about who your buying from. 

Research is huge though. I'm in total agreement of that.


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

Havlady 
Thanks for the information and setting me straight ... You would never know I read books about the Havanese .. Duh .. 
I do not know that much about the maltese - I did not realize that they were so small .
Maybe now you can explain the teacups and how they came about .
When I was looking for Asta and I had so much trouble finding a breeder teacup maltese seemed to be the rage here in Southern Ca ..


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## Havlady (Aug 2, 2006)

*Maltese*

Cosmosmom
I have had Maltese since the mid 70's and they used to be 7-8 pounds. I loved them at that size. Now they are 4-6 pounds with those little baby doll faces and buggy eyes. Nothing like the older Maltese used to be.
I am afraid that is what is going to happen to Hav's - I keep seeing ads for rare teacup and tiny Havanese. I hope they never go this way - but the size is going down.


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

I thought that they used to be bigger than 4-6 lbs .. 
I remeber them as being quite cute . The latest ones I have seen are definetly not quite cute .
I agree buggy eyes with the maltese and what about the hair .. It seems to be much stringier and not as full and pretty .. . 
My dog Asta was 15lbs (male ) his sister was 18lbs - very solid healthy dogs . I thought this was pretty normal at the time and they were great looking dogs with fun dispostions .. 


Cosmo and Ahnold are totally different but both are good lines .. 
Very Interesting !!


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Before the Havanese were recognized by AKC, who were they registered with and what were "the norm" as far as height and weight? I thought I read somewhere that the height was actually 8 1/2" to 10 1/2". Did I get that wrong?

TIA,


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## JodiM (Dec 28, 2006)

tchrviv said:


> First of all, I found your response to be discriminatory and hurtful. I joined this forum for friendly advice, not scorn. Why should my Havanese, a purebred with papers, be any less valuable than one from a breeder? If he were a rescue dog, would he be given different consideration? The pet stores in San Diego County are highly regulated, therefore, there are very few of them. This one is highly recommended and has regular veterinary visits; the puppies are NOT from puppy mills. My Havanese is in perfect health. He is called "special" by my friends because of his unusual disposition and personality. Several people have inquired about whether or not I plan to breed him, which is why I even put forth that question.


I apologize if you felt I was being hurtful, it was truly not my intent.

My comments were more based on the fact that you stated a reliable pet store, and while I can't state for sure about your pet store, the majority of pet stores are not a reliable source for a dog.

I never meant for you to feel unwelcome, nor did I at any point say anything about your dog in particular. My comments were in regard to pet stores in general.

No, I wouldn't give any different consideration to a rescue dog... dogs shouldn't be bred just because, and certainly not a rescue dog, with no other information about it's lines.

I think it's great that you have a wonderful dog, but I will stand by the fact that you need to get all the required (and then some) health testing done before you should breed... not to mention, that you really should show your dog, and make sure it conforms to the breed standards.. but at minimum, health testing should be done. And again, I didn't say your dog didn't have it done, I _asked _you if it had any testing done.

Also, before you post anything like that (looking for a bitch to breed your dog with) on the board, you need to check with the board owner, because it is considered advertising, and she asks that advertising not be allowed on these forums.

I'm sure if you stick around, you will find that most everyone on here is friendly, and we have tons of information, great stories, and wonderful pictures of all our havanese.. whether they are pet or show, they are *all* wonderful pets, whom we all love dearly.


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