# Motivational Heeling



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I had promised that I'd post a sample of "motivational heeling" for Ricky's Popi. We were doing some in class tonight, so I had someone video for me. It's too bad she only got our first segment... we each had another turn, and Kodi and I did some really fun stuff, incorporating some Rally moves, etc. All the dogs had a blast!:


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Thanks Karen, I can't thank you enough. I watch these videos 100 times and each time I pick up some new detail. But OH! my aching back feeding the treats! Kodi is such a champion, I love his tight heeling on your "about turns". I know I ask this each time, but what are you feeding him in this particular video? I am so concerned about Ricky gaining too much weight.

Keep the videos coming Karen, you are helping two wannabes out here in California.

Ricky's Popi


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

I enjoyed watching this too. I have yet to work with Willow on healing. Did Kodi always pay such close attention to you or is that something you had to teach him? Also, what kind of treat holder do you have on your waistband? Kodi is so beautiful and beautifully trained!


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> Did Kodi always pay such close attention to you or is that something you had to teach him?


ound:ound:ound: Yep, it is something you have to teach them. I can't speak for Karen and Kodi, but Ricky and I have spent hundreds of hours with a clicker, motivational treats, and persistence to get Ricky half as good as Kodi at paying attention. We have a ways to go but we are getting better everyday with back breaking work, bending over and giving treats. But in the end it is worthwhile endeavor whether competing in a ring or just going on a walk in a congested area. Try it, you will like it!

Ricky's Popi.


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## Lisa T. (Feb 5, 2015)

I have been working with Rudy and I'm still trying to figure a way to get the treats ready in my hand for immediate rewards. Sometimes I'm not fast enough. Also do you use shredded pork or shredded chicken, and how much do you give as a reward?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Thanks Karen, I can't thank you enough. I watch these videos 100 times and each time I pick up some new detail. But OH! my aching back feeding the treats! Kodi is such a champion, I love his tight heeling on your "about turns". I know I ask this each time, but what are you feeding him in this particular video? I am so concerned about Ricky gaining too much weight.
> 
> Keep the videos coming Karen, you are helping two wannabes out here in California.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


I think I had HAppy Howie's food roll at that point. It can be cut into tiny, TINY pieces without becoming crumbly.

Just make sure that whatever you use as training treats is good quality food, and cur down on his regular meals. A lot of obedience dogs only get one meal a day when they are in heavy training, because they use up all their "other meal" calories on training treats.  That's one of the reasons I tend to stick to real, whole meats, or Fresh pet for MOST of my non-trial treats. (he gets whatever junk food he likes best for trials! ) It's good food, he really likes these, and I don't feel bad at all about cutting down on "regular" meals as a result.

I've got Kodi back down to 17 lbs on the nose after his weight had crept up to 18 over the past year, and I want to keep him there! I don't see that he even notices that his portion size at supper is smaller if he's had a lot of training treats that day. It seems as if as long as there is food in his dish, he's happy. He inhales it so fast he can't taste it much anyway!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lisa T. said:


> I have been working with Rudy and I'm still trying to figure a way to get the treats ready in my hand for immediate rewards. Sometimes I'm not fast enough. Also do you use shredded pork or shredded chicken, and how much do you give as a reward?


No, I never use shredded anything. Much too messy! Whatever I use for training treats has to be easily cubed (small) and not crumbly. I also need to be able to toss it without it leaving any mess behind on the floor that will distract either Kodi or another dog after him.

Chicken is hard to cook in a way that it doesn't break up, turkey is a bit better. (and you can have the deli cut really thick slices of turkey which are then REALLY easy to cube. Then dry them in a low oven so they aren't messy in your pocket) Pork loin roasts are easy to cook easy to cube, and a great lean meat. I use them more than anything else.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> But OH! my aching back feeding the treats!
> Ricky's Popi


You know what my trainer says if we complain about that? (or a Lab slamming you on a front, or a Staffie being rough getting cookies or a Newfie drooling on us)?

"You bought the dog!" ound:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> I enjoyed watching this too. I have yet to work with Willow on healing. Did Kodi always pay such close attention to you or is that something you had to teach him? Also, what kind of treat holder do you have on your waistband? Kodi is so beautiful and beautifully trained!


As Popi said, it is DEFINITELY something they need to learn. And the BEST way for them to learn it, IMO, is to keep it interesting. To make them think that paying attention to you is SO much more fun than anything else that might be going on that they WANT to stay with you! Thinking fast enough to be fun and unpredictable while still holding criteria on the heeling is the hard part. My trainer says that if you're not a little out of breath when you're done practicing heeling, you aren't doing your part. 

But you ALSO have to teach the precision part. And that is done in a very small space,using chin heeling (I think I've posted video of doing that with Pixel THAT'S a back-breaker with a little dog!!! ) and working on fronts, pivots, set-ups in a tight space, with a sit box and a disk of some sort and tons and tons and TONS of cookies. Nothing gets the precision except repetition, and it's up to you to pay heavily enough that they don't get frustrated, discouraged or bored while just learning what to do with their bodies.

At this point, Panda is spending almost all her training time (30-90 seconds at a time,but several times a day) doing nothing but getting the "muscle memory" for tuck sits and fold back drops. Her body will be doing these two exercises correctly before we even begin to put s cue on them.

I don't use any "treat holder" except my pocket. I've found that any visible "holder" for treats causes Kodi (this is true of most other dogs too) to orient on the treat holder, which takes them out of position. You may be mistaking the bagginess of the front of my vest as some sot of holder, but it's not... it's just my vest. 

Normally, all my cookies are in my pocket, and only taken out at the end of an exercise as a reward. In this case, where the whole point was to make the heeling fun and informal, I kept them in my right hand, so that I could deliver them (or throw them) easily and quickly, one at a time, with my left hand as needed.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> And the BEST way for them to learn it, IMO, is to keep it interesting. To make them think that paying attention to you is SO much more fun than anything else that might be going on that they WANT to stay with you!


To follow up, my trainer likes to play the "find me" game as a preliminary exercise for obedience. You take three or four steps to the side, or back a few quick steps, or run a few feet, or spin around and face the opposite direction. It's a game. Each time your dog comes to you, you click and treat, BUT NOT UNTIL THEY COME TO YOU DO YOU SHOW THEM THE TREAT. This is preliminary and the dog doesn't need to heel. Eventually, you will play "find me" in a heel. Then you proceed to the specific exercises required in competition. As Karen says, you have to make yourself more interesting than anything else happening in the vicinity. When Ricky loses attention on me and starts sniffing grass, my trainer says, "Popi, you aren't worth grass!"

IMO, Karen and Kodi are playing, sort of, a very advanced form of "find me." Karen throws a treat off to the side, Kodi goes for it, and then looks around to find where Karen went. He then goes back to his heel position for the next "find me" game.

Good stuff.

Ricky's Popi


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> To follow up, my trainer likes to play the "find me" game as a preliminary exercise for obedience. You take three or four steps to the side, or back a few quick steps, or run a few feet, or spin around and face the opposite direction. It's a game. Each time your dog comes to you, you click and treat, BUT NOT UNTIL THEY COME TO YOU DO YOU SHOW THEM THE TREAT. This is preliminary and the dog doesn't need to heel. Eventually, you will play "find me" in a heel. Then you proceed to the specific exercises required in competition. As Karen says, you have to make yourself more interesting than anything else happening in the vicinity. When Ricky loses attention on me and starts sniffing grass, my trainer says, "Popi, you aren't worth grass!"
> 
> IMO, Karen and Kodi are playing, sort of, a very advanced form of "find me." Karen throws a treat off to the side, Kodi goes for it, and then looks around to find where Karen went. He then goes back to his heel position for the next "find me" game.
> 
> ...


That's exactly what we're doing. The difference is that Kodi is advanced enough to know how to "find heel" without any difficulty. We are actaully working at Utility level, but you wnat to keep your Open skills up, becuase at the highest level, (UDX) you need to "Q" in both Utility and Open to get a "leg". So this is an open class I take, along with my Utility class.

Some of the dogs in the class are less experienced than Kodi, and when they rejoined their handler, would come up on the wrong side. Our trainer just had them keep walking, saying nothing, until the dog figured it out, and switched to the left. THEN they stopped and gave them a TON of cookies.

Another thing you might notice is that a couple of times I stop and I don't give Kodi a cookie or two... I PILE them on, one after another, all the while telling him what a wonderful dog he is. This makes a BIG impression on them. "I'm not sure what I did to get THAT reaction from her, but I'm sure going to pay attention to when it might happen again!!!"


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## Coco2015 (Jan 11, 2016)

What type of treats do you use? And is there a smaller treat during training and a bigger one of the end of a good session??


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Coco2015 said:


> What type of treats do you use? And is there a smaller treat during training and a bigger one of the end of a good session??


I use all different kinds of things. Anything that can be cut small, is soft (doesn't need a lot of chewing, so they can swallow it fast) and doesn't crumble. There are a few commercial treats I use, but I prefer to use things like roasted whole meats, cubed small, or low fat mozzerella cheese sticks, cut up into small pieces. (For the girls... Kodi is allergic to dairy)

No, a bigger treat at the end of a training session wouldn't mean anything to the dog... Though they would happily accept it!  A reward has to be given IMMEDIATELY following the behavior to have any meaning to the dog. And a bigger treat doesn't really make a difference. They do seem to respond to a larger NUMBER of small treats, given one at a time, while you praise them lavishly. (You can see me doing this a couple of times in the video I posted)


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## Momof2pumpkins (Nov 14, 2015)

This is great! I am reading a lot about positive training in preparation for our pup, and it's really helpful to see it in action! Karen and Kodi, you are a great team!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Thanks! If it's not fun for my dog, it's not fun for me!


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## Laurmann2000 (Sep 12, 2015)

Another great video and another informative discussion. Thank you Karen and Kodi.


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## Zoe093014 (Jan 27, 2015)

Do you have to vary the treats to get the same attentiveness? Would you get the same response using the same treat on successive days?
Do you need to do the exercise before feeding a meal? Thanks


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## Coco2015 (Jan 11, 2016)

I watched the videos... they were very good to watch. Thank you for all your advise and taking the time to show how it is done..
I love all this information


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Thank you Karen and Popi. Boy, I have a long ways to go. I guess my real goal is not competition healing. I just want her to focus on me and walk with me when I want her too, not necessarily in the heal position. I want her to pay attention to me when we are on walks and follow when I think she needs to move on from whatever she is smelling or interested in. My clicker training book is instructing me to carry treats and the clicker around with me for a few days and every time I catch Willow looking at me I should click and treat. Then I start adding distractions and try to keep her focused on me during the distraction (such as someone else in the room). I haven't tried this lesson yet. I like your "find me" game Popi. That sounds like something Willow would be interested in. I'm not so limber anymore and not fast moving. I have bad knees but I can kind of lumber around for a few steps! :smile2:


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

VERY cool! I have not seen that technique done before but can totally see the reasoning behind it. You guys are a great team and Kodi of course is adorable! You are going to have your hands full working 3 lol


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Zoe093014 said:


> Do you have to vary the treats to get the same attentiveness? Would you get the same response using the same treat on successive days?
> Do you need to do the exercise before feeding a meal? Thanks


The treats don't CAUSE the attentiveness... They are a REWARD for the attentiveness. It's really important to understand that difference. The attentiveness comes from years of practice AND making it fun for the dog.

And, no, I never withhold a meal in order to train. The only reason I MIGHT think of doing this is if I knew I would be using enough training treats that the dog would get sick if s/he also had a meal shortly before. Kodi's class that you see in this video is at 7:00. We leave the house around 6:15, so I feed him his dinner areond 5:45. They usually eat around 6, but that'sjust cutting it too close for class. On Wed., we have our Utility class at 4:30 and one of the girls often has a class at 6:00. We don't get home until at least 8, and the have supper then, because otherwise I'd be feeding them at 3:30!!!
Please remember that this is a dog who is 6 years old, and has been training since he was a small puppy. He has to go in the ring and heel, with attention, off leash, with absolutely no reward. . This is a LONG way off for a puppy.

I just taped some training that's more appropriate for puppies this afternoon, and I'll try to post that tonight or tomorrow. I'll also try to remember to tape a BEGINNING version of motivational heeling with one (or both!) of the puppies tomorrow, so you get an idea what that looks like.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> Thank you Karen and Popi. Boy, I have a long ways to go. I guess my real goal is not competition healing. I just want her to focus on me and walk with me when I want her too, not necessarily in the heal position. I want her to pay attention to me when we are on walks and follow when I think she needs to move on from whatever she is smelling or interested in. My clicker training book is instructing me to carry treats and the clicker around with me for a few days and every time I catch Willow looking at me I should click and treat. Then I start adding distractions and try to keep her focused on me during the distraction (such as someone else in the room). I haven't tried this lesson yet. I like your "find me" game Popi. That sounds like something Willow would be interested in. I'm not so limber anymore and not fast moving. I have bad knees but I can kind of lumber around for a few steps! :smile2:


So, it sounds like what you REALLY want is loose leash walking... Not "heeling". Heeling is very hard work for the dog, and even in competition, only goes on for a very few minutes. It's not what we do when we are out and about!

If you are serious about training, you either have cookies in your pocket, or at least a bag near where you are sitting, and a clicker on you at all times you are near your dog. Learning and training are not static. You are either teaching you dog or letting their skills deteriorate at all times. . I think you'll find the videos I post next, of work with Panda, more useful than what I was doing with Kodi. Even though Panda is a baby and your girl is not, she's still closer to Panda's level of training than Kodi's


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dee Dee said:


> VERY cool! I have not seen that technique done before but can totally see the reasoning behind it. You guys are a great team and Kodi of course is adorable! You are going to have your hands full working 3 lol


You're not kidding!!! and the coats!!!


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## Zoe093014 (Jan 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> The treats don't CAUSE the attentiveness... They are a REWARD for the attentiveness. It's really important to understand that difference. The attentiveness comes from years of practice AND making it fun for the dog.
> 
> And, no, I never withhold a meal in order to train. The only reason I MIGHT think of doing this is if I knew I would be using enough training treats that the dog would get sick if s/he also had a meal shortly before. Kodi's class that you see in this video is at 7:00. We leave the house around 6:15, so I feed him his dinner areond 5:45. They usually eat around 6, but that'sjust cutting it too close for class. On Wed., we have our Utility class at 4:30 and one of the girls often has a class at 6:00. We don't get home until at least 8, and the have supper then, because otherwise I'd be feeding them at 3:30!!!
> Please remember that this is a dog who is 6 years old, and has been training since he was a small puppy. He has to go in the ring and heel, with attention, off leash, with absolutely no reward. . This is a LONG way off for a puppy.
> ...


OK, thanks, Karen. :smile2:
I didn't really understand because when I tried it on Zoe, she is smart enough and wanted the Ziwi Peak treats that she knew I had, so she 
kept her eye on me, and returned to me even when I threw one of the treats. So yeah, it's definitely impressive when they can do the stuff without the treats.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Zoe093014 said:


> OK, thanks, Karen. :smile2:
> I didn't really understand because when I tried it on Zoe, she is smart enough and wanted the Ziwi Peak treats that she knew I had, so she
> kept her eye on me, and returned to me even when I threw one of the treats. So yeah, it's definitely impressive when they can do the stuff without the treats.


Well, you have to fade the treats slowly, but that's WAY down the line!  Just like with potty training, you have to first build the HABIT of wanting to stay with you. THEN you start to fade the cookies.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

krandall said:


> So, it sounds like what you REALLY want is loose leash walking... Not "heeling".
> 
> If you are serious about training, you either have cookies in your pocket, or at least a bag near where you are sitting, and a clicker on you at all times you are near your dog. Learning and training are not static. You are either teaching you dog or letting their skills deteriorate at all times. .


Yes, loose leash walking would be a great improvement!

I will start keeping a clicker and cookies with me at all times. My concern is if I reward her with a cookie for every little thing she does that I want, such as focusing one me, she is going to do nothing but beg and bug me for more. How do you keep them from begging for more once they have been rewarded?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> Yes, loose leash walking would be a great improvement!
> 
> I will start keeping a clicker and cookies with me at all times. My concern is if I reward her with a cookie for every little thing she does that I want, such as focusing one me, she is going to do nothing but beg and bug me for more. How do you keep them from begging for more once they have been rewarded?


Because they don't GET food for begging or bugging. They ONLY get food as a reward for doing what they are asked to do. 

In general, people try to reduce the number of cookies WAY too early in the training process, then are surprised that the dog "won't" do it any more. The fact is, the dog CAN'T do it under those circumstances, with that amount of training on that day. Then you have to help them. 

BTW, this is the method that I prefer to use for teaching loose leash walking. There are others, but this one works very, very well with all kinds of dogs:


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

krandall;1070793
BTW said:


> kfiNFtembDA[/MEDIA]


Thank you for the link. After watching it, I'm confused at what point you are to click. I can see them walking backwards and tossing treats but there are so many clicks going on I can't tell when one is supposed to click.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> Thank you for the link. After watching it, I'm confused at what point you are to click. I can see them walking backwards and tossing treats but there are so many clicks going on I can't tell when one is supposed to click.


When the pup looks up and moves toward you, while keeping the leash loose.

The idea you are getting across is that you want the DOG to be responsible for keeping track of where you are, and staying close, so the leash is just a "fail-safe", not a means of control.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

krandall said:


> When the pup looks up and moves toward you, while keeping the leash loose.
> 
> The idea you are getting across is that you want the DOG to be responsible for keeping track of where you are, and staying close, so the leash is just a "fail-safe", not a means of control.


That makes sense to me. Thank you. :smile2:


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