# Our new puppy originated in a puppy mill



## Deeznuts

I found Carlos, who came to live with us on Saturday, through a post on Facebook. His original family got him from a "local breeder" a month prior to attempting to rehome him. I asked questions about his temperament, his health, their reasons to rehome. I didn't ask for information on the "local breeder".

We picked him up Saturday and he is absolutely wonderful. Happy. Healthy per our vet who he saw yesterday. Adaptable. Friendly. I am just overwhelmed with what a great dog he is and how well he fits in our family. 

Upon pick up we were given his "papers". They listed breeder information and I was able to look them up. His papers are not AKC but America's Pet Registry, which seems to be originated by the puppy mill industry. His breeder breeds no less than 7 different types of dogs. No where on her site are pictures of the Havanese parents or their living conditions. To me...this screams puppy mill.

I feel very guilty about indirectly supporting a mill. Carlos is a great 5 month old puppy who will lead a spoiled life. Vet says he is healthy, well socialized, and he is already bonded to me. But I feel like I need to do something to stop this mill. Has anyone had experience with getting a puppy mill shut down? What did you do? She is a registered breeder with the state of Missouri. I am also confused because his level of socialization can't have just been the one month with his original family.

We are lucky as we found a puppy in need of a home who is healthy and well adjusted. I just want to help his parents. I am not registering him with the APRI as he will not be shown and is scheduled to be neutered. If you have experience working against mills please let me know what you were able to do.


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## Marni

Good luck in your endeavor. I think the department of agriculture might regulate dog breeders.


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## Sheri

Welcome. Enjoy your Carlos, sounds like he has found a good home.


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## krandall

Unfortunately, only the public choosing not buying puppy mill dogs will put them completely out of business. They are regulated under "agriculture" in most states that allow them, and as long as they "sort of" comply with livestock standards of cleanliness (which is low), population density (which is high) and care of the animals, they are completely within the law. That does NOT mean that this is how animals destined to be pets should be raised.

As far as your puppy being quite sociable, that happens too. Dogs that are hard to handle tend to get weeded out of the gene pool in puppy mills because they are, well, hard to handle. You are lucky you got such a delightful little guy from such a source. For future reference, it would be EXTREMELY unlikely to find a quality puppy from a reputable breeder being re-homed on FB, Craig's List, or other places of that sort. All reputable breeders have it written into their contract that the puppy or dog must be returned them if the owner finds that they can't or don't want to keep them anymore. And all quality Havanese puppies are AKC registered. (the converse is not always the case... it's entirely possible to find poor quality puppies with AKC registration)

There is really nothing you can do for the parents of your puppy... especially to without just adding to the problem by trying to buy them. Enjoy him for who he is, and consider this a learning experience.  Next time, you will know to find a reputable breeder when you want to buy a puppy, or will adopt from a REPUTABLE shelter or rescue. (those aren't all so good either!) And in the mean time, you can help other people avoid making the mistake you did, by guiding them into good decision when they are looking for a puppy!


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## ShamaMama

What Karen said. Meanwhile, welcome to the forum, and let's see some photos of sweet Carlos!


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## karidyne

Welcome! It sounds like Carlos has a wonderful family. Looking forward to pictures!


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## Heather's

Welcome! :wave: Lucky little one to have found his way to you! Hope we get to see him soon!


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## Ollie"s Mom

So glad Carlos is such a wonderful puppy. Welcome.


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## Dee Dee

Congratulations on your baby! I'm sorry it turned out he came from an awful place like that. Some people should be shot.
Seriously.


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## Melissa Brill

I'm going to disagree with your concern about supporting a puppy mill - you adopted a puppy that was being rehomed by the people who didn't want him. That's what rescue/ adoption is about and most/ all of the rescues/ adoptions are from puppy mills. I disagree with Karen is about adopting from a 'reputable' shelter/ rescue (with the implication that was the way to get a quality breeder puppy). What you did was save a puppy from going to a shelter (potentially a high kill one) - that's a win in my book. Yes, going through a reputable shelter is a good thing so as not to support bad rescue practices, but if you're looking for quality breeder puppies then you're probably not going through rescue in the first place (since, as Karen stated, most quality breeders require you to bring a dog back to them if you decide you can't keep it). Don't feel bad about tangentially supporting a puppy mill - you didn't, you rescued a puppy.


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## krandall

Melissa Brill said:


> I'm going to disagree with your concern about supporting a puppy mill - you adopted a puppy that was being rehomed by the people who didn't want him. That's what rescue/ adoption is about and most/ all of the rescues/ adoptions are from puppy mills. I disagree with Karen is about adopting from a 'reputable' shelter/ rescue (with the implication that was the way to get a quality breeder puppy). What you did was save a puppy from going to a shelter (potentially a high kill one) - that's a win in my book. Yes, going through a reputable shelter is a good thing so as not to support bad rescue practices, but if you're looking for quality breeder puppies then you're probably not going through rescue in the first place (since, as Karen stated, most quality breeders require you to bring a dog back to them if you decide you can't keep it). Don't feel bad about tangentially supporting a puppy mill - you didn't, you rescued a puppy.


I didn't say ANYTHING about getting a puppy bred by a reputable breeder from a reputable shelter. Puppies from good breeders will not be found in shelters. Period.

In the United States, a cottage industry has grown up around "shelters" that are thinly veiled puppy mill outlets. They keep their "shelter" stocked with inexpensive, cute, puppy mill dogs that they then "allow" people to "adopt" for outrageous "adoption fees", of $500 or more. THIS type of shelter does nothing but encourage the overproduction of puppies for profit, because puppies that the millers can't sell to pet shops, now still have an outlet that makes the mill SOME money, even if it's less than they would have gotten from a pet shop. There was a "shelter" of this type recently shut down here in MA, in an adjacent town. I know this facility intimately, because my son "adopted" his Coonhound there. He came home with screaming diarrhea, pin worms and heart worm. (that they KNEW about, were treating him for, but didn't happen to mention to my son as they practically shoved the two of them out the door) After the fact, we found out this was a common practice for this place. I was really happy when they got shut down a year later. This is not an isolated incident. There are probably as many or more of this sort of money-making "shelter" as there are real ones.

That's not to say there aren't GOOD shelters (and rescues) out there, who do great work. There are. My point is that you have to be JUST as careful and discerning about shelters and rescues as you are about finding a breeder. There are good and bad ones of both. Just getting a dog from a shelter shouldn't be considered a badge of honor. Choose your shelter or reduce wisely, ask a lot of questions, make sure the dogs are kept under clean, safe, uncrowded conditions. And look them up to make sure they do not have violations outstanding against them. My son's dog is a sweetie, and he is very happy with him. But the WAY he got him was not right. My son didn't know any better at the time... and that is true of SO MANY people who get dogs from these shelters. Now he knows better, and will make a better choice the next time.


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## Deeznuts

I do understand what you are saying but I don't think that we made a mistake in rescuing Carlos. He is wonderful. Happy. Playful. Loving. Affectionate. And he needed us as much as we need him. If I could do it all over again I would in a heartbeat. 

What I want to do now is become more active in educating people and trying to get Mills stopped. We have a great new dog who had a bad start but I don't regret rescuing him. I am grateful that his previous family took the time to weed through all the people wanting him and that they thought we were a good fit. 

Havanese are such a desirable breed I imagine they populate so many mills. That hurts my heart because they deserve a better life. Carlos has so much love to give, even if he won't even let me pee by myself!!!!

I am intent on working to help stop Mills.


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## karidyne

I don't see anyone saying that giving a home to a dog needing one is a mistake. It is important to be careful who you get your dog from though, shelter, rescue or breeder. Some pet mill breeders disguise themselves on FB or CL as a family that just had an accidental litter (with a rehoming fee of $600 lol). The time I tried to adopt from a shelter in Houston my sweet calm puppy died of distemper two days later and I had exposed it to my ex's dog. I was young and didn't know better. I think the reason why all of this got brought up is saying you feel guilty for indirectly supporting a puppy mill. I don't think you did support them by taking in the pup, but it's very easy to accidentally do so.


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## krandall

Deeznuts said:


> I do understand what you are saying but I don't think that we made a mistake in rescuing Carlos. He is wonderful. Happy. Playful. Loving. Affectionate. And he needed us as much as we need him. If I could do it all over again I would in a heartbeat.
> 
> What I want to do now is become more active in educating people and trying to get Mills stopped. We have a great new dog who had a bad start but I don't regret rescuing him. I am grateful that his previous family took the time to weed through all the people wanting him and that they thought we were a good fit.
> 
> Havanese are such a desirable breed I imagine they populate so many mills. That hurts my heart because they deserve a better life. Carlos has so much love to give, even if he won't even let me pee by myself!!!!
> 
> I am intent on working to help stop Mills.


You and Carlos are clearly meant for each other. No question about that. :hugs:

But the ONLY way to stop mills, is to get people to stop buying puppy mill dogs. Period. If there is no money in it, they will move on to other businesses. Unfortunately, currently, puppy mills are a lucrative business in the U.S. Eventually, humane groups can sometimes shut down the absolute WORST mills. But all the rest are operating within the letter of the law. In this country, especially in the states that already allow and encourage mill breeding of dogs, like Missouri, Ohio, Pennsylvania and a number of the deep south states it is highly unlikely that you can get laws passed that will out and out stop the mill breeding of dogs. They are covered by agricultural laws, and as long as they meet stock animal levels of care, that's good enough in the eyes of the law.

The difference is that animals meant for slaughter never were meant to be house pets. They weren't bred for that temperament and type of mind. As long as they are with their own kind, fed and housed adequately, they are quite content. The less contact most have with humans, the better they like it. Their lives, in general are not long either... Grow them to market size, and off to slaughter they go... hopefully in a somewhat humane manner. (we need to speak with our wallets there, too, BTW)

Dogs are constitutionally designed to be companions to human beings. They are not designed to live with minimal human interaction. And breeding dogs in puppy mills can have a LOT of puppies over quite a number of years. During which time, the parents just stay in their cages, churning out babies. Only when their production drops or they have trouble with a pregnancy do they get (in the best cases) dumped on shelters, and in many cases, just shot and thrown on a pile in the back of the property. And as far as the puppies are concerned, they are sold too young, (mostly the boys, as the girls are often put right into the breeding program) and have had no significant socialization or enrichment as young puppies. They live in wire cages with their parents and siblings until ready for sale, peeing and pooping where ever they happen to be when the urge hits.

These puppies CAN make good pets, as you've found with your lucky little guy. But they can also be difficult to socialize, MANY of them are sick upon delivery, and many, many of the mill bred toy breed puppies are almost impossible to house train, because they have never known (therefore do not value) clean surroundings. So they have no compunctions whatsoever about soiling their crates.

So, I am SOOOO happy that you and Carlos have found each other. It sounds like a match made in heaven. But the BEST way to combat puppy mills is to learn from your experience, and avoid mill dogs unless adopted from reputable shelters. And teach that same lesson to others. Point out how lucky you were, and how doing the same thing might also lead to very different results, AND that although it saves that one little dog, continues the problem of that dog's parents (and all the other dogs like them) being in a perpetual state of pregnancy for many, many years, only to be destroyed without ever knowing a loving family. THAT is what we all would like to see stopped.


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## StarrLhasa

Hi, Deeznuts (I don't want to ask...):

If you are on Facebook, there are a lot of groups and pages with people working together to stop puppy mills. Use the Search box to find pages such as

https://www.facebook.com/StopPupEmills/

https://www.facebook.com/Stop-Puppy-Mills-303833667118/

https://www.facebook.com/SHUT-DOWN-PUPPY-MILLS-Ban-Shops-that-Sell-Puppies-1417774215119800/

https://www.facebook.com/Make-it-Il...pies-in-Pet-Stores-196025447082684/?ref=br_rs

There are also pages and groups with state names in them, but many have information for you that can be transferred to other states.

https://www.facebook.com/WisconsinCitizensAgainstPuppyMills/

There are lots of website with information

Stop Puppy Mills | Best Friends Animal Society

Good luck and thank you!


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## Melissa Brill

*shelters / rescue*



krandall said:


> In the United States, a cottage industry has grown up around "shelters" that are thinly veiled puppy mill outlets. They keep their "shelter" stocked with inexpensive, cute, puppy mill dogs that they then "allow" people to "adopt" for outrageous "adoption fees", of $500 or more. THIS type of shelter does nothing but encourage the overproduction of puppies for profit, because puppies that the millers can't sell to pet shops, now still have an outlet that makes the mill SOME money, even if it's less than they would have gotten from a pet shop.


Really good point Karen. Makes me wonder what the best way to check into the rescue/ shelter that you're looking at would be? If you're looking at a shelter/ rescue local to you, it might not be so hard, but when you're looking further away, any thoughts on how to check to see if it's this type or a 'real' rescue/ shelter?


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## krandall

Melissa Brill said:


> Really good point Karen. Makes me wonder what the best way to check into the rescue/ shelter that you're looking at would be? If you're looking at a shelter/ rescue local to you, it might not be so hard, but when you're looking further away, any thoughts on how to check to see if it's this type or a 'real' rescue/ shelter?


I'm not sure how I'd check far away, unless you have someone "on the ground" in that area, who knows the shelter. You are in a very unique situation!


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## Cassandra

Petfinder, a well known rescue website for rescue searches, published an article a few years ago about how to look for clues to id puppy mills pretending to be shelters. They attempt to screen them out of their listings, but as with all these things, it isn't always easy. Karen is correct, it is a problem as long as money is being made and there is little regulation.

https://www.petfinder.com/blog/2012/01/is_this_rescue_group_for_real/


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## Melissa Brill

krandall said:


> I'm not sure how I'd check far away, unless you have someone "on the ground" in that area, who knows the shelter. You are in a very unique situation!


Not really all that unique. Even if we had been in the US when you're looking for a specific breed like we were it is difficult to find nearby. It would be great if there was some way to check on a rescue to know if it was legit

Sent from my EVA-L19 using Tapatalk


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## Melissa Brill

Cassandra said:


> Petfinder, a well known rescue website for rescue searches, published an article a few years ago about how to look for clues to id puppy mills pretending to be shelters. They attempt to screen them out of their listings, but as with all these things, it isn't always easy. Karen is correct, it is a problem as long as money is being made and there is little regulation.
> 
> https://www.petfinder.com/blog/2012/01/is_this_rescue_group_for_real/


We found Perry through petfinder

Sent from my EVA-L19 using Tapatalk


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## krandall

Melissa Brill said:


> Not really all that unique. Even if we had been in the US when you're looking for a specific breed like we were it is difficult to find nearby. It would be great if there was some way to check on a rescue to know if it was legit
> 
> Sent from my EVA-L19 using Tapatalk


Well, for some one in the U.S., I would ALWAYS recommend breed rescue rather than a shelter if you are really set on a specific breed rather than a specific individual. Many of the dogs listed as "Havanese" in shelters, are the shelter's "best guess" as to breed. You never really know. So if it really MATTERS to you, breed rescue is more likely to get you the breed you want. Also, the dogs are taken into experienced foster homes, where they are assessed, training is done as necessary, and they can give a really good idea of the type of home that will work best for a specific dog. Plus, the dog doesn't have the added trauma of time in a shelter.

Havanese Rescue, Inc. does an amazing job.


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## Genie1000

I so wish I had found this forum long before I did. So much valuable info. Just want to thank you all for sharing your knowledge. 
We are thankful Penelope is healthy so far, but knowing what I know now, if we ever get her a havanese brother or sister, it will be from a different breeder!
❤


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## Hammer

i was shocked to learn that the Amish society is very involved with puppy mill dogs. I didnt know this at first but when i started researching I found out. I wish that government would regulate this practice. Our last dog Abbey we believe came from a puppy mill and we loved her to death and she was great. Like Melissa above mentioned, your saving a dogs life dont feel bad. Here is a picture of Abbey, she passed away a couple of months ago.


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## Genie1000

Just found out today that it I likely our "breeder" gets her parents from the Amish. I have to let that go for now...live and learn. Our puppy is with us because she's meant to be our pup and we love her. We will take the best care of her that we can and she will have a fabulous life!  When you know better you do better...and so that's where we are.
As a recovering worry wart myself, I am having to just focus on the here and now and not worry that Penelope may develop health issues or what not.


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## ShamaMama

Abbey was beautiful, and Penelope is beautiful. Lucky dogs to find you!


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## Genie1000

❤


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## krandall

Genie1000 said:


> Just found out today that it I likely our "breeder" gets her parents from the Amish. I have to let that go for now...live and learn. Our puppy is with us because she's meant to be our pup and we love her. We will take the best care of her that we can and she will have a fabulous life!  When you know better you do better...and so that's where we are.
> As a recovering worry wart myself, I am having to just focus on the here and now and not worry that Penelope may develop health issues or what not.


While I hope that everyone who knows better would not purposely get a puppy mill puppy (unless as a rescue), you are FAR from the first person to be taken in by puppy mill brokers... and you won't be the last. All we can do is educate people for their NEXT uppy decision. Right now, just enjoy your little girl! You are over the first hurdle with her, since so many puppy mill puppies are ill upon delivery. She sounds adorable and just perfect! Enjoy every moment!


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