# how strict are your tug game rules?



## RoutineAvocado (Feb 6, 2013)

I stumbled across this ASPCA article about how to play tug and am curious what you all think of it:
http://www.aspca.org/Pet-care/virtu...articles/teaching-your-dog-to-play-tug-of-war

According to the article, I'm doing it all wrong by just goofing around with the tug toy, letting my dog have it for too long, letting her have the toy uninvited, not taking it away after tug is over, etc. If a dog learns manners and safety commands like "drop it," do you think it's necessary to be so regimented during play time? Or is it necessary to be this regimented so the dog can learn good manners?


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

I played a little with the tug wars, not much though, I basically played with them, by saying "I am going to get you!" and they would run away with the toys and I would try to get them or the toy. 

Or I would say "I am going to get that toy!" and so on, run after them and let them run, If I got the toy, I would throw it and I would say "I am going to get it!" And they would get the toy before I could, it was all fun. 

I have taught Dexter, "Enough" and all rough playing or playing stops. 

It is fun to train....it just takes lots of time (a little bit each day)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

RoutineAvocado said:


> I stumbled across this ASPCA article about how to play tug and am curious what you all think of it:
> http://www.aspca.org/Pet-care/virtu...articles/teaching-your-dog-to-play-tug-of-war
> 
> According to the article, I'm doing it all wrong by just goofing around with the tug toy, letting my dog have it for too long, letting her have the toy uninvited, not taking it away after tug is over, etc. If a dog learns manners and safety commands like "drop it," do you think it's necessary to be so regimented during play time? Or is it necessary to be this regimented so the dog can learn good manners?


I think this article was written in very general terms, and especially targeted at large breed/high-drive dogs. Havanese are neither.

Their basic rules are:

* Your dog can't grab the tug toy before you give her permission to do so. She must sit or lie down and then wait for you to invite her to play. You can invite your dog to grab the toy by using a special word or phrase, like "Take it!" or "Get it!" to initiate a game of tug.

* Your dog must let go of the toy whenever you ask her to do so. Teach your dog that when you say "Drop it" or "Give," she should release the toy. We'll explain how below.

* Your dog can't put her mouth on human skin or clothing while playing tug-even if she does so accidentally. "Missing" and grabbing anything except the tug toy should immediately result in the end of the game.

I agree completely with the second and third rules. I think these should be standard for all dogs. The first one is a little different. Some dogs (and some breeds are more prone) get tug-obsessed. (other breeds are more likely to get ball/fetch obsessed) Havanese, from what I've seen, are unlikely to get obsessive about either "game". If you happen to have a dog who gets obsessive, either about tug or about fetch, it's important that the handler ALWAYS maintain control of the toy, and mark the beginning and end of the play session.

Other dogs will go for days (or most of a day) without initiating a play session on their own. With these dogs, the answer is, "it depends". If you want to use "tug" (or "fetch") as a motivator and reward for work, you need to maintain control of the toy, so that the dog continues to consider it "high value" enough to work for it. If you don't really care to use it as a teaching tool, and just want to play when your dog asks to play, by all means leave the toy around, and let them bring it to you to initiate a game.

Here's how I work it with Kodi. Kodi loves to play tug with his larger Skineez toys (this would not be an appropriate tug toy for a GSD or Rottie, but works fine for a small dog with a weaker jaw, like a Havanese or other toy breed) He likes to play fetch with them too. But I also want Kodi to work for toys and play. So I have a piece of rabbit skin on a rope, and a small tennis ball that only *I* have access to/control of.

For Kodi's "working toys", I do it just like the ASPCA article says. Kodi never has the opportunity to initiate the game, because I "own" the toys. After he does something really good while working, I pull out the toy, and play vigorously with him for a few seconds of the tug game, or two or three returns of the ball. Then back to work again.

But for Kodi's skineez (or other "every day" toys... including other types of balls that he doesn't like QUITE as much as the tennis balls) they are all in a big box in the family room. In the late afternoon, he'll go and get something out of the box and bring it into my office, doing his little play dance, and play growl. Then I'll play with him. I STILL end the game when I'm ready, not on his schedule, he STILL has to release the toy immediately when I say "out" and he learned _*LONG*_ ago that dog teeth do not touch human flesh.  If I had a dog who kept offering fetch or tug items all day long (and some do) I would limit access to all of them. But since Kodi's "play time" is a discrete period in the late afternoon (and I think this is typical of a lot of Havs) I don't feel the need to control all his beloved toys. 

Incidentally, the more you play these games, insisting that they hand you the toy, the more willing they are to give it up, because they start to understand that this is the only way you can keep playing with them.

Also, the article says to tell them "out" or "drop it". In my training vocabulary, these are two very different cues, and ones I DON'T want mixed up in Kodi's mind. "Out" (other people say "release") is the cue to let go of something that I already have my hands on. I do NOT want the dog to drop it, until it will land in my hands. This is VERY important for formal obedience, where, on a retrieve, if the item hits the floor, it's major points off.

For us, "drop it!" is a cue I can give even at a distance. That means, "whatever is in your mouth, spit it out NOW!!!"  This is more a safety issue than anything else. And quite honestly, though we work on it regularly, this is NOT confirmed in Kodi's training. It depends ENTIRELY on how highly he values whatever he's got. If it's "just" something he has stolen out of someone's purse, he'll probably drop it. If it's a dirty kleenex from under the bed, he'll probably swallow it fast. :doh: Ah well, training is always a work in progress! :laugh:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

HavaneseSoon said:


> I played a little with the tug wars, not much though, I basically played with them, by saying "I am going to get you!" and they would run away with the toys and I would try to get them or the toy.
> 
> Or I would say "I am going to get that toy!" and so on, run after them and let them run, If I got the toy, I would throw it and I would say "I am going to get it!" And they would get the toy before I could, it was all fun.
> 
> ...


Linda, what I'm writing before isn't specifically for you. I know you have a wonderful relationship with your dogs, and seem to have played this game without damaging your relationship with them. Still this game is walking a dangerously fine line, and probably not a good idea for most people.

Be careful playing chase with any dog, especially a "soft" dog like a Havanese. This can be really overwhelming and scary for them, even though the OWNER knows they are "just playing". (think of it in reverse... if someone that much bigger than you was chasing you!!!) The other reason this game isn't a good idea is that you never, EVER want your dog to think it's a good idea to run away from you. You always want their first instinct, in times of trouble, to be to come TOWARD you. Also, when the DOG thinks they're playing, and YOU are NOT playing, and need to get them for some reason, "keep away" can be a very frustrating game.

Unless you have a "heel nipper" (in which case I wouldn't play this game AT ALL!), getting the dog to chase YOU is much more fun for a small dog, and also tends to make the dog want to come toward you, which is what we want to encourage in an emergency.

If you want to play any "chase" game with the dog where you are the "aggressor", try getting down on the floor, and gently "chasing" them just with your finger tips on the floor... only for 3-5 seconds. Then make your hands "disappear" behind your back. Very often, they dog will get very interested and curious, and start to look for your hands. Then you can bring them out again for another couple of seconds of "chase", etc. Oh, and for those who have a hard time getting up from the floor again, this game can easily be played on the couch or the bed, too!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

That article is probably fine, I didnt read it all ,but it covers the important issues ,even though long winded. lol A lot of SPCA articles rely on Jean Donaldson's and Ian Dunbar's expertise and the article for the San Fran division. This one is a little more precise IMO http://www.sfspca.org/sites/default/files/tug-of-war.pdf


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## RoutineAvocado (Feb 6, 2013)

krandall said:


> If you want to use "tug" (or "fetch") as a motivator and reward for work, you need to maintain control of the toy, so that the dog continues to consider it "high value" enough to work for it. If you don't really care to use it as a teaching tool, and just want to play when your dog asks to play, by all means leave the toy around, and let them bring it to you to initiate a game.


Thanks! Everything you wrote was really helpful - I think this bit I quoted sums it up nicely. I like the idea of maintaining control over a special high value tug toy to use for training, but keeping the normal toys available so she can play when she wants. That seems like a balanced approach. Especially since she sometimes plays alone if she can't get me to join her. It's important to me that she can entertain herself with dog-appropriate objects when I'm not available.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

we didn't play tug until Tillie was well over a year old ... and when we started playing it, typically SHE picks out which toy she wants to play with and brings it to us, if she drops it, she wants to play fetch. if she doesn't she wants to play tug. The only hard and fast "rule" I have is that she MUST "drop it" when given the command. and then I throw it and she brings it back to me and we play growly tug for as long as she interested.
As long as she drops it on command when I tell her to I see no issue with playing tug.


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## misstray (Feb 6, 2011)

Brody likes tug, but he only does it for really short periods of time and he doesn't tug very hard (example...he'll play tug with a toilet paper roll and it doesn't rip), so I don't really have any rules about it at all.


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

The article has good basic advice which they taught us in class. It makes sense. 

I don't do tug games with my beasties, basically because we had Border Collies/Aussies and if you aren't careful with eye contact during tug, you can really work them up into a frenzy. It just wasn't worth the stress when there are so many other ways to play with them. This just carried over to Jack. He probably would be fine. We would follow the basic rules outlined in the article. 

We also never do chase games because once again - herding dogs. Heel nipping hurts.

The drop it/leave it commands - LOVE IT! I don't have different commands for different things, probably we should but I am lazy. "Leave it" for us is whatever your mouth is on or around had better be out of your mouth right now! I was so proud of Nessie yesterday because she was trying to catch a baby bird and just about close her mouth around it on the ground. I saw and did the "Leave it" and a recall from across the yard. She did. I walked to the site expecting a gruesome circle of life scene but, phew, I stopped her in time. No birdie, just a couple of feathers.


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