# Behaviorist Appointment



## HannahBearsMom (Jul 31, 2011)

I'm in the process of setting upan appointment with a Vet-Behaviorist for Maccabee. He is extremely anxious. He has separation anxiety, barks at the slightest sound, jumps back when anyone attempts to touch him. He is aggressive towards my daughter and constantly barks at her and has bitten her as she attempted to step over a baby gate. He used to walk on a leash fine, but is now scared by noises and will suddenly stop and shake, and need to be carried home. He is litter box trained and will potty in his litter box if anyone is in the room with him, but if he is alone he goes where he pleases (he also goes outside with no problem). Maccabee will lie on the couch next to someone, and even snuggle and fall asleep, but the slightest noise or movement startles him awake and he starts barking. He sleeps in bed with my fiance and I, and he is a different dog on the bed: snuggly, happy, licks our feet until we fall asleep. 

We have tried 2 different medications: Amyltriptoline and Xanax. I spoke with our vet on Friday and he suggested we try additional training. I traded emails with a very highly recommended trainer via email, in order to set up a comsultation and her response was: "Given his behavioral history and the different issues he has (separation anxiety, fearful behavior, aggression) I recommend working with a veterinary behaviorist rather than a pet dog trainer or behavior consultant. It's been my experience that when a dog has a history of some medical problems combined with several different behavior problems, a vet with special training in behavior is the best bet."

I've been communicating with a local vet behaviorist and we have an appointment set up for 5/15.

Wish us luck. I really want Maccabee to be a happy, well adjusted dog, and I want my daughter to really love her dog. I think you folks know how much I love Maccabee and how much we've been through. Still, I feel like I've failed him.

For now, I've decided to keep him with me in my office while I'm working, rather than in his expen upstairs. Less separation = happier Maccabee.


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## Serenissima (Feb 26, 2014)

I'm sorry to hear that it's gotten to this point but hopefully this will mark the beginning of a new chapter in Maccabee's life! Wishing you success in your endeavours!


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## sandypaws (Aug 8, 2012)

HannahBearsMom said:


> I'm in the process of setting upan appointment with a Vet-Behaviorist for Maccabee. He is extremely anxious. He has separation anxiety, barks at the slightest sound, jumps back when anyone attempts to touch him. He is aggressive towards my daughter and constantly barks at her and has bitten her as she attempted to step over a baby gate. He used to walk on a leash fine, but is now scared by noises and will suddenly stop and shake, and need to be carried home. He is litter box trained and will potty in his litter box if anyone is in the room with him, but if he is alone he goes where he pleases (he also goes outside with no problem). Maccabee will lie on the couch next to someone, and even snuggle and fall asleep, but the slightest noise or movement startles him awake and he starts barking. He sleeps in bed with my fiance and I, and he is a different dog on the bed: snuggly, happy, licks our feet until we fall asleep.
> 
> We have tried 2 different medications: Amyltriptoline and Xanax. I spoke with our vet on Friday and he suggested we try additional training. I traded emails with a very highly recommended trainer via email, in order to set up a comsultation and her response was: "Given his behavioral history and the different issues he has (separation anxiety, fearful behavior, aggression) I recommend working with a veterinary behaviorist rather than a pet dog trainer or behavior consultant. It's been my experience that when a dog has a history of some medical problems combined with several different behavior problems, a vet with special training in behavior is the best bet."
> 
> ...


Laurie, I am so sorry to hear this about little Maccabbee. It certainly is not typical behavior for our Havanese and I hope you get the help you need for him. Perhaps his medical issues are catching up with him. Best of luck and please keep us posted.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

good for you, vet behaviorists are few and far between, but sounds like the right choice .


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Good luck! I wonder if something happened to make him this way. Glad you are working with him. How old is he?


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## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

Laurie,

Was he always like that or only after his surgery? Could it be a side effect (irritability) from medication...
I hope the behaviorist can help little Maccabee!


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## HannahBearsMom (Jul 31, 2011)

lfung5 said:


> Good luck! I wonder if something happened to make him this way. Glad you are working with him. How old is he?


Maccabee was very sick on and off from about 10 months old, until he was finally diagnosed with a liver shunt at 15 months. He was always anxious and we were working with a trainer when his illness got so severe we had to stop all training. The liver shunt was repaired and physically he seems fine, so now we are trying to deal with his emotional/behavior issues which have gotten worse over time.


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## Colbie (Feb 9, 2013)

Laurie:

Please don't feel like you have failed him. Your love for him is apparent and you have been doing everything you can. Best of luck and hoping for a good outcome.


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## DawnH (Jan 21, 2014)

I'm sorry that he's having so many issues but agree that you can't blame yourself. It sounds like you've done already done and continue to do everything you can to help him. Good luck and keep us posted on how it goes.


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## whimsy (Apr 3, 2010)

I feel so bad for you. Hang in there and keep us posted! Will keep you in my thoughts.


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

I hope Maccabee can find some peace with this therapy so he can be the happy Havanese he was meant to be. Best wishes to all of you, it sounds like you have been through a lot with him.

Diane


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## dianaplo (Dec 30, 2013)

I'm sorry, it must be stressful for all of you. I hope you make speedy progress.


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## Karen Collins (Mar 21, 2013)

Good for you Laurie! I'm glad you are seeking professional help. I too, had a dog many years ago that I was able to rehabilitate by going that route. Well worth the hard work!

Since you put this problem out here on the forum I would like to take the opportunity as a breeder to encourage you and also to point out a common problem that I see from well-meaning pet owners.

First, the good news for you and Maccabbee is that if you get your puppy from a reputable breeder, and Tom and Pam King at Starborn are reputable breeders, all the issues you described are learned behaviors. And if learned, then they can be unlearned. That's good news!

You haven't failed Maccabee, but helping a dog to get better involves a willingness to examine yourself honestly and to make major changes in how you interact with him.

In my experience with pet owners with these issues, they all make the same mistakes. That is they tend to treat their dogs like children instead of respecting who they actually are, a dog. Havanese are especially challenging because they are unusually human-like. My Dance literally talks to me with her eyes. We have conversations all day long and its easy to forget she's a dog. Couple that with a serious health concern like Maccabee's and you have a disaster in the making if you allow yourself to over-identify with him. I don't know how you interact with Maccabee, but over-mothering and pity can cause huge problems. 

I'm also disappointed in your vet for first prescribing mind-altering drugs to change a behavior. That's a lazy cop-out and fortunately you have already seen that it doesn't work and at least he has directed you to a professional behaviorist. 

I hope you are working closely with Pam, your breeder, as she is very knowledgable both with her line and dogs in general.

Remember, our dogs simply mirror us. So, if you want to change your dog, change yourself. If the behaviorist you are seeing is a good one, he will tell you this too. 

Back to my Husky, at 6 months of age, he suddenly became highly aggressive and would bite anyone unprovoked. Because he was so young all my professionals assumed he was poorly bred and psychotic. No recourse but death. I couldn't do that without at least trying to help him and it ultimately saved his life. With just a few changes from me and the way I interacted with him, he was a different dog and lived out a long full life as gentle as a lamb.

As a breeder, I beg my new owners to please, please see your Hav as a dog no different than a Great Dane. Resist the urge to baby and coddle them. Find out their basic canine needs and provide them. I'm not saying we can't show love and affection, but give them what they truly need, exercise, a consistent daily routine, good nutrition and mind stimulation. This is the love they need to be well-balanced. They are not live stuffed animals.

I know you desire to do what's best for Maccabee. If you are successful, you will become a better person yourself. And who doesn't need self-improvement? Good Luck! And do keep us informed of your progress!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Just to add this Karen., there is nothing wrong with prescribing these type of drugs. if done in combination with behavior therapy . This is why I too feel a vet behaviorist is the best route in this case. Vets that give drugs alone without the knowledge of behavior are not doing the best for the dog. The best vet behaviorists use these drugs all the time ALONG with behavior modification. Drugs are of HUGE importance for a lot of dogs ,just as with humans. Read some of DR. Nicholas Dodman on the use of drugs and you'll realize how important they can be.


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## Karen Collins (Mar 21, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> Just to add this Karen., there is nothing wrong with prescribing these type of drugs. if done in combination with behavior therapy . This is why I too feel a vet behaviorist is the best route in this case. Vets that give drugs alone without the knowledge of behavior are not doing the best for the dog. The best vet behaviorists use these drugs all the time ALONG with behavior modification. Drugs are of HUGE importance for a lot of dogs ,just as with humans. Read some of DR. Nicholas Dodman on the use of drugs and you'll realize how important they can be.


Well, gotta respectfully disagree with you on the mind-altaring drugs, Dave. They are unpredictable and mask the real problem. There are better ways, IMO. eace:


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Karen Collins said:


> Well, gotta respectfully disagree with you on the mind-altaring drugs, Dave. They are unpredictable and mask the real problem. There are better ways, IMO. eace:


I have to disagree with that too Karen. Drugs are used all the time by vet behaviorists with great success . http://abcnews.go.com/Health/american-pets-prescribed-psychiatric-drugs/story?id=15525610

many of our trainers at IAABC use drugs in concert with a vet behaviorist.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

The thing with psychotropic drugs with pets is that regular vets have limited knowledge of animal behavior, That's where a vet behaviorist is the ideal person to deal with these sort of problems. I agree with you Karen., these drugs only work for specific cases and are best accompanied by behavioral work as well. Here is another article http://moderndogmagazine.com/articles/pill-popping-pups/753


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

another quote from Dr. Overall 
"Anxiety and Related Psychopharmacology - A Preliminary Caution
The use of medication should occur and is most effective as part of an integrated treatment program. There is no substitute
for the hard work involved in behavior modification; however, some medications may be able to make it easier to implement
the modification [101]. Those seeking "quick fix" solutions will doubtless be disappointed: inappropriate drug use will only
blunt or mask a behavior without alteration of processes or environments that produced the behavior. Furthermore, the newer,
more specific, more efficacious drugs have a relatively long lag time between initiation of treatment and apparent changes in
the patient's behavior. This delay is due to the mechanism of action of the TCAs and SSRIs which employ second messenger
systems to alter transcription of receptor proteins. The primary focus is on the main groups of drugs now recommended for
use: those drugs affecting serotonin and GABA."


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> Just to add this Karen., there is nothing wrong with prescribing these type of drugs. if done in combination with behavior therapy . This is why I too feel a vet behaviorist is the best route in this case. Vets that give drugs alone without the knowledge of behavior are not doing the best for the dog. The best vet behaviorists use these drugs all the time ALONG with behavior modification. Drugs are of HUGE importance for a lot of dogs ,just as with humans. Read some of DR. Nicholas Dodman on the use of drugs and you'll realize how important they can be.


Of course, Nick Dodman has become much more knowledgeable about the behavior/training/handling part over the years, but he was one of the first to prescribe meds like candy (without any other intervention) for behavior problems. I know because he's local, and I am friends with several vets who have work for and with him over the years. Fortunately, he has gotten a lot better as time has passed and tends to use a mixed approach now.

It's not where I would start, but there are animals; horses, cats AND dogs, especially those who have had a hard early life or who have a difficult disposition to start with, who clearly benefit from meds to bring anxiety levels down to where they are available for learning&#8230; just like with people. And I would NEVER let a "regular" vet prescribe psychotropic meds for my animal&#8230; any more than I'd want my pediatrician prescribing them for my child.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yeah Karen , many behaviorists were leery years ago when he first started studying these types of drugs., now there's no one hardly that disagrees with the appropriate use of them. I know him and Ian Dunbar have had some differences of opinion. Times have changed for the better for sure.


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## Milo's Mom (Aug 31, 2008)

With Dave's help, we located a behaviorist who has helped us with many issues with Brookie. It has been a lot or work, but definitely worth all the effort. "One day at a time." Brookie also takes a small dose of prozaac in coordination with the vet and the behaviorist. The combination of the medication and training have allowed us to keep Brookie.


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## HannahBearsMom (Jul 31, 2011)

I think part of Maccabee's problem is his "frenemy" relationship with my 12-year-old daughter. Quite frankly, my daughter is scared of him and she lets him know that. He smells her fear and acts even more aggressive towards her. The three of us attended puppy training classes together. He did okay, but I thought his manners would improve even more if I hired a trainer to come to our home for private training sessions. At our first session, she said Maccabee was anxious. His anxiety level increased as time went on. Before we were able to finish the sessions I paid for, his physical condition deteriorated. 

He had been vomiting in his crate at night from the time we brought him home. I worked with Pam to try to figure out a better diet for him and switched his food several times. Of course that had little to no effect because the real problem was the liver shunt. Around the time of his first birthday he had what we thought was another GI infection. Almost as soon as he recovered from that he had another "GI infection" from which he never recovered. During that time, all Maccabee wanted to do was lie on someone's lap and be cuddled. That was when he began sleeping in my bed. He also developed severe neurological issues (hepatic encephalopathy) and could barely walk without falling over. Once the neurological issues arose, the vets were quick to suspect liver disease. In fact prior to the HE the newest vet in the practice suspected a liver issue, but when she took him in the back to draw blood he sneezed greenish mucus all over her so she diagnosed a sinus infection. She prescribed an antibiotic and said if he wasn't better in a few days to bring him back. He did not improve much so he went back for blood work and the liver issue was confirmed.

I think that his physical problems greatly contributed to his anxiety and behavior issues. I don't think he ever felt healthy until we got the liver issue stabilized with medication and then finally surgically repaired. Even when he was in ICU at Univ of Tenn, the vets had to sedate him in his cage, and said he was more anxious than most dogs they see.

I do accept the blame for not working with as much as I could have prior to him getting really sick. Once he was showing symptoms, training was very difficult because he didn't feel well and also because he was on a very restricted diet and I could not use treats for training. Once he recovered from the surgery, I started working with him again, but the problems had set in and he was extremely anxious. The vet prescribed the meds so that he might calm down enough to work with me. When that didn't work, he recommended the professional trainer, who recommended the vet behaviorist.

I don't blame the vet. He said drugs will not be a miracle cure and wanted to try them for a short time to see if he would be calmer for training. I also do not blame the Kings one bit. Pam has been extremely helpful whenever I sought help. She even offered to care for Maccabee as he recovered from surgery. Most importantly, I believe they had no knowledge that Maccabee had any problems when they handed him over to me. 

I think Maccabee's situation resulted from a series of unfortunate events. Maccabee had a congenital liver shunt. He had a series of illnesses that built up to the life threatening illness when he was just over a year old. He developed anxiety and never felt good enough to really work with me. Now he is almost 2-1/2 and he has anxiety, plus a bunch of less than desirable learned behaviors.

I'm doing my best to address the issues and try to undue what has been done. My daughter will also be involved in working with Maccabee, so they can develop a mutually pleasurable relationship.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

you're on the right track Laurie. Best of luck.


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## HannahBearsMom (Jul 31, 2011)

davetgabby said:


> you're on the right track Laurie. Best of luck.


Thanks!


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## Karen Collins (Mar 21, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> Just to add this Karen., there is nothing wrong with prescribing these type of drugs. if done in combination with behavior therapy . This is why I too feel a vet behaviorist is the best route in this case. Vets that give drugs alone without the knowledge of behavior are not doing the best for the dog. The best vet behaviorists use these drugs all the time ALONG with behavior modification. Drugs are of HUGE importance for a lot of dogs ,just as with humans. Read some of DR. Nicholas Dodman on the use of drugs and you'll realize how important they can be.


You know, Dave in a perfect world maybe the drugs would actually benefit and theoretically they should, but the cold hard truth is statistically with humans anyway, they just don't.

40% of our society is on some cocktail of anti-psychotic meds and yet no one is ever healed, just medicated. And we are of course, following the same pathway for our pets. I simply think we can do better.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> yeah Karen , many behaviorists were leery years ago when he first started studying these types of drugs., now there's no one hardly that disagrees with the appropriate use of them. I know him and Ian Dunbar have had some differences of opinion. Times have changed for the better for sure.


The problem was that he was experimenting with them WITHOUT any behavior mod to go along with it. "Give your (cat, dog) this, and he'll be all fixed, but he'll have to be on it for the rest of his life."

I know he has changed his tune considerably. I like him better now.


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## sandypaws (Aug 8, 2012)

I never knew the whole story with Maccabee's illness. You certainly have had your hands full with him since day one. So sorry that you all had to go through such an ordeal. I feel especially bad for little Maccabee. No wonder he's anxious! I would be too with a history like that. You have certainly taken good care of him, Laurie, and I hope that you will soon be on the road to recovery with his anxiety and aggressiveness and your daughter feels better about him too. My heart goes out to all of you. Be strong and best of luck.


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## Celesthav (Mar 20, 2013)

sandypaws said:


> I never knew the whole story with Maccabee's illness. You certainly have had your hands full with him since day one. So sorry that you all had to go through such an ordeal. I feel especially bad for little Maccabee. No wonder he's anxious! I would be too with a history like that. You have certainly taken good care of him, Laurie, and I hope that you will soon be on the road to recovery with his anxiety and aggressiveness and your daughter feels better about him too. My heart goes out to all of you. Be strong and best of luck.


Mary,
I couldn't have said it better. Laurie, Hugs to you and your family. You're a great HavMom! Stay strong. Maccabee needs you and the best is yet to come. 
Jeanne & Maggie


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