# New here!



## java

Hi everyone. Every time i searched info on havanese, something from this site came up, so i figured why not join?
So, I'm getting my first little guy in a couple of days and I'm super nervous/excited. The curious thing, though, is his coat. I see all kinds of different coat types on here. Wonderful long straight hair to corkscrew curls. But my guy just looks like hes on the poofy side! I'm concerned he won't have a beautiful flowing coat because his hair just looks so thick to me, not really silky. But I've never had the breed before so I'm wondering if he just looks the way he does because it's just starting to grow out. What do you think?


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## DonnaC

Hi. What a cutie! I know you will get lots of responses to this question, because Havanese coats appear to be the subject of a lot of debate/conversation. There's a thread right now -- UNDERCOATS -- that might be of some help. I don't know a lot on the subject, but I do know that if you have pix of the parents that will tell you a lot about your puppy's adult coat. The puppy coat will "blow" away (I think that's the term) and change from between about 8 months and three years. So, your best indicator at this point is mom and dad. Welcome!


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## davetgabby

Welcome.


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## java

yeah, I was looking at that thread. thanks for the welcomes. I am going to ask for pictures of the parents since I unfortunately can't go meet them. but he's the only one in the litter like that!


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## whimsy

welcome aboard!! Cute puppy!! Looking forward to more pictures!


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## java

thanks! I can't wait to take more. and I love seeing all the other different colors. no two look the same!


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## TilliesMom

Welcome!


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## Jplatthy

Welcome............what a cutie pie!


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## The Laughing Magpie

Welcome to the forum!!!! Most puppies are poofie their adult coat is usually different and yes the parents or Breeder can give you a clue to what it will be like. Your pup is adorable.


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## SnickersDad

Welcome! He's a stunner! There is no real direct answer to your question as his adult fur will most likely not be the same as his baby fur is. There are almost as many coat types as there are Havanese --- Cottony, silky, wiry, coarse, almost all are very soft, and when properly groomed they all look beautiful with long flowing coats. Now, the operative word there is "Properly Groomed" Yikes! These little guys can take a lot of work to maintain a full coat. Prepare yourself if your planning on a full coat


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## java

oh I see. so it's usually thinner or more tame as am adult?
and yes I can see the variations of hair you're talking about. which is weird because earlier when I wad reading akc registration requirements for what the breed should look like it said no wire or coarse hair.


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## clare

Well it can take a long while before their coats are fully mature up to 2 or maybe even 3 years old, though generally you get an idea of how it is going to go by the time they are 18 months old,but well before that the little fellow will have made you fall in love with him and you won't care how his fur turns out! In the pictures you have posted his hair looks pretty true to type.The most important thing is that he has a happy disposition.


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## lfung5

Welcome! He is very cute. I'm not sure about the coat, but I do know they blow coat and it can change texture. Scuds was straight when he was a baby and now it is wavy. Fred's stayed the same, but got duller and lighter as he got older. Bella has a very cottony coat.


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## windfallhavs

The tagline on your photos says "Noah's Little Ark". Since you are buying from a breeder who probably never read the standard and certainly does not breed to it (a small round face and short muzzle????) and state right on their website they do not do the recommended health testing, and you did not even see pictures of the parents before buying this puppy...who knows what coat you are going to end up with. It is too bad you did not come here before buying a puppy. A little education can go a LONG way.


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## java

well, what I thought made up for not doing every health test is that they pay the vet bills if you have any problems. 
she told me they've only ever had two people in 15 years with a problem and they paid it. she's sending me a picture of the parents because I asked.


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## java

oh, and I didn't really know how they would breed for that characteristic. he doesn't look any different to me. but it's just like saying I want a black dog so I'm going to breed for that color. these dogs have so many variances you can have a number of havanese lined up and they'll be worlds different. if the weight is about 7-14 lbs fully grown well that's a drastic difference, twice the size. and if i wanted a dog on the larger side i could breed for that and its still within the requirements. with size and color and coat you've got so many possibilities and they're all still purebred. you're still breeding havanese here.


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## krandall

java said:


> oh I see. so it's usually thinner or more tame as am adult?
> and yes I can see the variations of hair you're talking about. which is weird because earlier when I wad reading akc registration requirements for what the breed should look like it said no wire or coarse hair.


Thier coats definitely SHOULDN'T be wirey or coarse, but not all puppies are perfect show quality, and that doesn't make them less good pets! But even among dogs in the show ring ther is quite a bit of variation.

I don't think the adult coat is necessarily "thinner", but as it gets longer, the weight makes it lie a little flatter and they don't look QUITE as "poofy". Kodi's parents are both champions, so their coats were obviously acceptable to the judges, and his coat is very much like theirs. His adult coat is very silky and slightly wavy. As a puppy, he was definitely very fluffy, but the hair was vey silky then too... He just had a lot of it. You can see him at about 16 weeks in my avatar, and as an adult in my sig.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

java said:


> Hi everyone. Every time i searched info on havanese, something from this site came up, so i figured why not join?
> So, I'm getting my first little guy in a couple of days and I'm super nervous/excited. The curious thing, though, is his coat. I see all kinds of different coat types on here. Wonderful long straight hair to corkscrew curls. But my guy just looks like hes on the poofy side! I'm concerned he won't have a beautiful flowing coat because his hair just looks so thick to me, not really silky. But I've never had the breed before so I'm wondering if he just looks the way he does because it's just starting to grow out. What do you think?


I think your little guy is cute as can be. There are people here who will be happy to answer your questions. Welcome to the forum. I am on here and I don't even own a Havanese, I have a perhaps Part Havanese/Shih Tzu Rescue. We have all sorts of members here, some are breeders, some show their dogs and some just like the Havanese breed. As in everything else just enjoy your little guy. The most important thing is that he is healthy and you are happy with him...we love photos!!!
I have had my little guy over a year and have to say I would not trade him for anything. I think most feel that way. They come to us full of love and trust and it is up to us to make the "perfect" dog out of them. Dogs don't know if they are Havanese pets or Havanese champions...they are just full of love..ENJOY IT...


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## Becky Chittenden

He is a cutie. Did you find the breeder from a classified ad? They advertise in TN and that concerned me since they don't live anywhere near me. He looks like a puppy with pretty good hair, but as someone said, look at the parents and grandparents to get an idea. The big thing is, you'll love your puppy no matter how he turns out.


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## Kathie

Welcome to the forum! Your new little puppy is a cutie and has gorgeous shiny black hair! Their coat will change as they get older including their color so it is a lot of fun watching the transformation. Hope things go smoothly when your new little guy arrives. We will need new pictures!


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## wynne

what a cutie


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## El Bueno Habanero

Welcome! Your puppy looks cute .

I don't know much about coat etc, but I don't like this breeders website for a second! On the page of sold puppies you can read the following:
'Sold Havanese Puppies
Hi Everyone! Below you will find many pictures of our puppies that have sold over the past months.'

I tried to count all the sold puppies and counted till 200 hunders, and couldn't finish counting, 'cos i got so sad. But no need to count further, because no responsible breeder sells over 200 pups in 'the past months'!!! Are their dog's registered?
Of course they have 5 puppies at the moment too (like every professional puppy mill does...puppies are always available there), and some of them don't even look like a purebred Havaneses to me. 
For example take a look at the pics of Wink, who is available at this very moment. There is something really wrong with the eyes of that poor little guy (I feel so sorry for him, and hope he will find a loving home), and he really looks afraid to me . 
The whole website just stinks like a big puppy mill to me. Where are the parents? I don't see any picture of grown up dogs there!



java said:


> she told me they've only ever had two people in 15 years with a problem and they paid it. she's sending me a picture of the parents because I asked.


I personally know a responsible breeder who has 2 or 3 litters in a year. How much puppies are we talking about here? Let say 18 pups on average. She does all the health testing, and she has had more people with some kind of health problems over the last 5 years then this people from Noahs Little Ark have had in 15 years! And they sell over 200 hundred pups in a months!!! And this breeder expects me to believe that!? She must be kidding!

And what to say about her description of havanese? 
'...those cute little round faces with shorter muzzles' ???
'Our Havanese Puppies are bred to be particularly sweet natured and to have a small round face with a short muzzle. ' 
What does she mean by 'bred to be particularly sweet natured'???

I could go on and on here.... 
I'm sorry for sounding this negative (I know you just want a sweet puppy), but this breeders website just made me sooo angry.

Unfortunately until people learn to take more time before choosing their breeder this kind of people/breeders will continue to exist.


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## java

well I don't think they're a mill because she's personally bringing me the puppy... but I did know it wasnt necessarily the best person I could go with. I just really liked how they pay for any vet bills up to the price of the puppy. the websit says they raise them in their bedrooms and then put them in a nursery. they can't be that bad... I think that page you're talking about is all their puppies theyve ever sold. she's been really cooperative with me and has answered all my questions.


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## El Bueno Habanero

java said:


> well I don't think they're a mill because she's personally bringing me the puppy... the websit says they raise them in their bedrooms and then put them in a nursery. they can't be that bad...


She can claim whatever she wants on her website, who is going to check if any of that is truth? She is bringing you the puppy anyway, so you're not going to see her home and how the pups are accommodated, and you're certainly not going to meet the parents. I beet they're even not there. 
Is your puppy registered? If not, those 'parents' picture's could be pics of any dogs available on the photo at the moment. 
That's she is bringing you the puppy isn't a very strong argument for her not being a byb big time. How for God's sake can she find the time and enough hands to properly socialize and take care of over 200 pups in the past few months?! This is just impossible! 
And how exactly does she breed 'particularly sweet natured' hav's? Sounds like there is a gene for a sweet nature there. :frusty:
But in the end we all believe what we want to believe.


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## java

Well i could have gone to her house if i wanted to. And she will give me any papers or referrals i want.. 
I dont know.


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## TilliesMom

ya, maybe it isn't the best way to get a pup and yes I also noticed that MANY of the pups on the site don't look pure bred or healthy... BUT we aren't here to judge, we are here to support each other the best way we can!!
Often times we do the best we can with the information we have at the time and sometimes we may follow our heart and not our rational mind, especially when it comes to puppies!!

I hope that Java turns out to be a wonderful companion and that he is healthy, smart, joyful and has been socialized properly!


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## krandall

I agree, Tammy. Of course we try, as much as possible, to educate people in terms of how to find a quality puppy and a good breeder when they come here BEFORE making a purchase. But we have lots of people here who have purchased puppies from questionable sources, BYB's and pet stores. We have other people who are an important part of our community who have part Havs (some purchased as purebreds from pet stores!) and a few that don't have a Hav at all! 

I'm all for education before hand, but when someone comes to us who has already purchased a puppy, no matter what the source, it's time to celebrate their new puppy with them! As they become members of our community, they will learn more about what makes a good breeder, and few make the same mistake again. But that doesn't mean they love their first pup any less!

Let's stop beating Java's mom about the head for where her pup comes from, and instead welcome them both into our community. Java is a cutie no matter where he comes from, with or without papers. I'll be rooting that he is everything his new owner is looking for in a puppy, and that he grows into a wonderful, long-lived dog!


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

krandall said:


> I agree, Tammy. Of course we try, as much as possible, to educate people in terms of how to find a quality puppy and a good breeder when they come here BEFORE making a purchase. But we have lots of people here who have purchased puppies from questionable sources, BYB's and pet stores. We have other people who are an important part of our community who have part Havs (some purchased as purebreds from pet stores!) and a few that don't have a Hav at all!
> 
> I'm all for education before hand, but when someone comes to us who has already purchased a puppy, no matter what the source, it's time to celebrate their new puppy with them! As they become members of our community, they will learn more about what makes a good breeder, and few make the same mistake again. But that doesn't mean they love their first pup any less!
> 
> Let's stop beating Java's mom about the head for where her pup comes from, and instead welcome them both into our community. Java is a cutie no matter where he comes from, with or without papers. I'll be rooting that he is everything his new owner is looking for in a puppy, and that he grows into a wonderful, long-lived dog!


Agreed! Health problems can come from ANY breeder..the chances lessen the more you learn and the more you research. But all you can do is make an educated informed choice and just enjoy and love your puppy. NO breeder and No breed are free of health problems.
Enjoy and please forward photos as often as you can...we love photos!!


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## pjewel

I have to agree with the last few posts. We do want to help educate people when making a decision that will impact on everyone's life for the next (hopefully) fifteen or so years. However, when someone has already made a choice and has come to us for support and sharing, the best thing we can do is to be there for them and welcome them as we would any new friend coming into our midst. 

Welcome to you and your adorable new puppy. You will love him, no matter what his coat, or any of the rest of him for that matter, look like. I remember when I first got Bailey, he had the strangest shaped head. He was sort of funny looking at one stage, but he was my funny looking little guy and I loved him. As life would have it, he outgrew that stage, and is now, in this mother's totally unbiased opinion, just beautiful.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

pjewel said:


> I have to agree with the last few posts. We do want to help educate people when making a decision that will impact on everyone's life for the next (hopefully) fifteen or so years. However, when someone has already made a choice and has come to us for support and sharing, the best thing we can do is to be there for them and welcome them as we would any new friend coming into our midst.
> 
> Welcome to you and your adorable new puppy. You will love him, no matter what his coat, or any of the rest of him for that matter, look like. I remember when I first got Bailey, he had the strangest shaped head. He was sort of funny looking at one stage, but he was my funny looking little guy and I loved him. As life would have it, he outgrew that stage, and is now, in this mother's totally unbiased opinion, just beautiful.


Geri you have three beautiful Havs...we don't see enough of them...I would take anyone of them at any time....I am not sure I have seen an ugly Hav.. I hope one day I will have one. And might I say some of the cutest Havs have been Rescues!!! Now maybe one day I will find a beautiful RED rescue:flypigHard to find a Red anywhere)...
Nearest I am getting is my little Lowchen girl who is growing a beautiful deep sable coat with some gold overtones on her ears and tail..
Again we love all the little Havs..they are addictive though..you do need to be warned of that before you visit this forum...IWAP...if you don't know what that means, you have not been here long enough...


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## shimpli

Totally agree with the last few posts too. And when we want to teach someone anything, kindness and respect are very much appreciated. Welcome to the forum, Java's mom.


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## El Bueno Habanero

pjewel said:


> However, when someone has already made a choice and has come to us for support and sharing, the best thing we can do is to be there for them and welcome them as we would any new friend coming into our midst.


I absolutely agree with you all! I didn't mean to sound to harsh, and I'm sorry if I've made some angry comments here. This is in NO way targeted against our new friend Java, and her puppy is absolutely adorable! I just got so furious about the breeder in question. 
I can't care less if a particular puppy has papers or not, but the breeder claims that she is breeding purebred havanese puppies, and some of them don't even look like a hav's. 
The problem is that many bad breeders continue to exist if we don't stop buying puppies from them. I'm sure that Java will have a wonderful life with her new family, and that makes me smile, but what about the parents of all those puppies? Unfortunately I have witnessed once in what condition the parents have to live with some ppl who call themselves a 'breeders'. Just can't get that picture off my mind. Sad, sad. And although I'm happy for Java and her new family I can't stop thinking about dogs who are used for breeding. There is no way we can stop this kind of practices as long as we continue to buy the pups from those places. 
That being said I do wholeheartedly welcome Java to our community and hope to see a lot of pictures in the future. And I'm sorry if you felt bad because of some things I've said. That never was my intention. Wishing you and your new baby all the best!


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

I had a real estate customer who came to me asking about the Bichon breed, she had a Bichon for 18 years and 1 day. I referred her to a great breeder, the breeder contacted her and then I hear that the buyer does not want a male..so I led her to some good Havanese sites and told her how great they are...She could not find a female. (she did not want to breed)...I saw some females available and told her about these...no reply...then I get an email she has purchased a Wheaton puppy from a breeder in a neighboring state. I congratulate her, wondering how she will fare with a Wheaton whose whole disposition is so different from the Bichon. She gets the dog and has had the dog only a few weeks, yesterday I get a call wanting me to help her find a home for the Wheaton puppy now 11 wks. old. She explains her husband has medical problems, she has back problems and the puppy is getting up at 4;30 am. I try to help...nothing I saw will work. I ask if she has contacted the breeder. She says yes but the breeder won't take her back as the breeder has just purchased a new dog...
Then she tells me she paid 700 for her and will take that or whatever, she just needs to find a new home...
WHAT I THINK...is that she did not want to pay the price of the Bichon or the Hav from good breeders...so she internet shopped and found one for 700..now that breeder won't take a puppy back..
These are things we learn, hard lessons. Don't know why I am worried about the puppy, except I think the poor puppy was a pawn..a breeder who does not care and an owner who doesn't want to be bothered.
SO the point of my email, sort of...does anyone know a Wheaton LOVER out there? If so please PM me...if they might want a puppy who needs a home...11 wk old female cute as a button (I have yesterday photo) and has shots..will get more on 12 week date..
Thanks...the losers are always the dogs aren't they?


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## krandall

El Bueno Habanero said:


> I absolutely agree with you all! I didn't mean to sound to harsh, and I'm sorry if I've made some angry comments here. This is in NO way targeted against our new friend Java, and her puppy is absolutely adorable! I just got so furious about the breeder in question.
> I can't care less if a particular puppy has papers or not, but the breeder claims that she is breeding purebred havanese puppies, and some of them don't even look like a hav's.
> The problem is that many bad breeders continue to exist if we don't stop buying puppies from them. I'm sure that Java will have a wonderful life with her new family, and that makes me smile, but what about the parents of all those puppies? Unfortunately I have witnessed once in what condition the parents have to live with some ppl who call themselves a 'breeders'. Just can't get that picture off my mind. Sad, sad. And although I'm happy for Java and her new family I can't stop thinking about dogs who are used for breeding. There is no way we can stop this kind of practices as long as we continue to buy the pups from those places.
> That being said I do wholeheartedly welcome Java to our community and hope to see a lot of pictures in the future. And I'm sorry if you felt bad because of some things I've said. That never was my intention. Wishing you and your new baby all the best!


In this case, though, we don't KNOW that the parents are kept in bad conditions. We know the breeder doesn't do all of the things that we would like in a top breeder, but there are many BYB's who may not do the testing one would wish, don't show and don't breed to the standard. But that doesn't NECESSARILY mean they mistreat their breeder dogs.

While, based on the web site, I wouldn't choose this breeder for myself, she must care about her dogs to personally fly a pup to his or her new home. There are a few breeders who are considered very reputable that regularly fly puppies to their new homes in cargo, unattended. I wouldn't do that either.

I think it's one thing to have personal, first hand experience that something is going on, and another to wildly conjecture about what MIGHT be going on. I also think it's one thing to go check out a website for someone who asks for help, and another to pick apart the breeder's site of one of our member's pups.

I know how often I am approached by someone on the street with a "???-poo" or whatever. While I HATE the "designer dog" industry, I say something pleasant to the person and walk on. Why make them feel bad about their beloved pet? If someone ASKS me about finding a puppy, I will tell them all I know, and help them in any way I can!


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## java

krandall said:


> In this case, though, we don't KNOW that the parents are kept in bad conditions. We know the breeder doesn't do all of the things that we would like in a top breeder, but there are many BYB's who may not do the testing one would wish, don't show and don't breed to the standard. But that doesn't NECESSARILY mean they mistreat their breeder dogs.
> 
> I think it's one thing to have personal, first hand experience that something is going on, and another to wildly conjecture about what MIGHT be going on. I also think it's one thing to go check out a website for someone who asks for help, and another to pick apart the breeder's site of one of our member's pups.


you're right. I think there are a lot of bad things going on with byb but I think most of the gray area breeders really do try to give their pups a good home, they just can't all be masters and professionals at it I suppose. I wasn't just trying to get a deal and i definitely didnt make a rash decision, i would never have a puppy shipped either. I really don't think these people are bad people. I'm not looking to make java a show dog so I'm not worried about champion qualities I just love the breed. thanks for the support and I will definitely follow up with more pictures.


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## TilliesMom

loooking forward to more pictures!
when does Java come home!??


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## java

three days!!


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## Ditto's Mom

:welcome: Look forward to hearing more about your lil darling, he's just adorable!!


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## Fluffball

Welcome!!! This forum is just so helpful and full of nice people.
Your baby's coat does look very thick but i am sure when he grows up it will look beautiful just like a teddy bear's. When it is curly hair then it can get a lot of tangles though, but his seem to be straight.


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## Atticus

ENJOY your sweet pup and the forum will be a great help! That wait is so hard and then you have puppy kisses everyday I'm excited for you!


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## pjewel

Flynn, that story breaks my heart. Some people simply can't or won't put themselves in the shoes of the little creature they decide is expendable. I pray that sweet puppy gets the home it so richly deserves. Please let me know what happens. I know you'll do whatever you can to help.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

pjewel said:


> Flynn, that story breaks my heart. Some people simply can't or won't put themselves in the shoes of the little creature they decide is expendable. I pray that sweet puppy gets the home it so richly deserves. Please let me know what happens. I know you'll do whatever you can to help.


The lady sent me an email this morning about a place in Ga..interestingly enough in the same town Noah's Little Arc is in...but NOT Noah's Little Arc..this place is wingsong kennels...I googled it and could not find a site..more like a puppy resaler. I emailed her and asked if they were going to buy the puppy or what. I got an email back saying some lady in Michigan just called and so the puppy may be going there...she say a Good Home...that always causes me pain...I will keep you posted...it breaks my heart too..


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## wawag

Welcome! We just welcomed a new puppy into our home about a month ago. Your life is about to change forever!!!


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## Thumper

Hi and :welcome: to the forum!! What a cutie 

Kara


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## DiegoCF_Boston

The place I got Diego from wasn't THE MOST reputable...mostly reviews of people saying that since it's a kennel, they treat the animals bad, etc. However, the BBB gave it A+ and talking over the phone, the workers said they get their animals from reputable breeders, etc. So there was this whole mixed bag of things. 50% said negative, 50% said positive. I decided to check the place out for myself.

My partner and I went in...it wasn't exactly what I was expecting. Was it filthy? No. Did it have a pet store-like ambience? Slightly...but it didn't feel WRONG per sè.

When they brought their Havanese out (they only had four...three of the same litter and one from the previous litter), instead of acting like an adult and looking for red flags or anything of the sort, I became a little kid again and recognized out of the four which one I would belong to. We got Diego, and we brought him home. I took him to the vet within the first couple of days...absolutely excellent reviews on his health. Took him back a couple of weeks later for the last round of his shots...still got shining reviews for his health. It felt like our family finally found a missing puzzle piece...and if you go to my profile to see my pictures, you can see that Olive found her #1.

That was at the end of March/beginning of April. At the beginning of August, I saw a short documentary on puppy mills. It wasn't too gruesome (it was about the Madonna of the Mills). This intrigued me to learn more about puppy mills cause I knew they were bad and what they "sometimes" did...so I youtubed puppy mills documentaries and saw the worst of the worst and can not get the images to erase from my mind.

I've been feeling guilty ever since then about Diego. :-( If I got him from a puppy mill, then it breaks my heart that I chose to support it. But the fact that I just DON'T know about it is killing me even further. :-( I'm just overjoyed that if it ends up being a puppy mill, that Diego is healthy and happy and perfect (which he absolutely is...110%!)

----------------------------------

And now that I've broken down and let some weight of my shoulders by confessing that, I would like to welcome Java & family to the forum!!! The joy of playing with your new Havanese for the first time is like nothing I can describe (isn't that what holding a newborn baby is supposed to be like??)! 

When you get Java, please post at least 10K pictures! Anything less will only occupy us for about 2 minutes!! :whoo:


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

I did a bit of research on the kennel Java is coming from and I must say I do NOT think it is a puppy mill. 
1. The prices run from 1400 to 2800
2. They will NOT ship their puppies, they are hand delivered.
3. They give only LIMITED AKC papers with their dogs.
4. I see no Better Business Bureau complaints against them, and yes I have seen this when pulling up some Hav kennels.
5. They invite you to visit their kennel which is in their home.

I do think the photos of sold puppies on the site is a collection of puppies sold in the past, not just recently...notice the Christmas tree in the top one? 

Sorry, but I just don't think a puppy mill or horrible BYB would insist the puppies are hand delivered, or picked up. I also think prices would be lower to get more customers.
Health practices? Well they explain their feelings about that and do explain what they will do if your puppy becomes ill.
Java's owner decided these people answered her questions to her satisfaction. Health issues can arise in the best breeding situations. 
Diego is healthy and his owner is now rethinking the way she purchased him. 
This forum helps everyone..recommend it to anyone you know if they are considering a Havanese...it is invaluable...I can't think of many questions that have not be asked and answered...just research the threads. Havanese Forum is a great place!!!


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## DonnaC

And (from another person who obtained a Havanese from a less than desirable breeder), once you love them so much, you can't help but feel like you "rescued" them, even though that isn't the right way to feel at all . . . In my case, it seems at least that Baxter's was the final litter.


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## krandall

Yeah, unfortunately, close to 100% of puppies sold at pet stores, puppy brokers or multi-breed puppy "kennels" (i.e. retail shops that sell puppies only) are from puppy mills, no matter what they tell you. (they ALL say the puppies come from wonderful "farms" in the mid-west)

Some of these retail places do take good care of the puppies while they have them... after all, they are valuable livestock. Same is true of some "puppy mills". Some of them absolutely DO provide adequate physical care for their breeding stock... it is their livelihood. Unfortunately, this "livestock" mentality means a less-than-adequate quality of life for an animal that should be a pet. Even if they are well cared for physically, the breeding stock spend their lives in cages or at best small runs attached to an indoor area. The females are bred back to back as many times as they continue to produce large, healthy litters. When they are no longer producing in a way that makes economic sense, they are disposed of. Under the best circumstances, some of these dogs are sold at auction or given to humane organizations for re-homing. Many more are destroyed, sometimes humanely, sometimes not. So the problem isn't necessarily that puppy mill puppies themselves are not healthy (though that CAN be true, and the parents certainly haven't been health tested) but it's the lives that the breeder dogs live.

There wouldn't BE puppy mills if there wasn't a big demand, and if people understood the problems behind purchasing these dogs. Since it is a HUGE business, count yourself as one of MANY who got duped by the "system" and fell for a cute puppy face. You'll know better for your next Hav!

BUT... I don't think anyone is saying that Java's breeder is a puppy mill. There is some evidence that she is probably somewhere on the back yard breeder scale. She doesn't fully health test or show her dogs, and does not breed them to the breed standard, instead choosing to breed for short noses and round faces. But she does offer to let people come and see how the pups are raised, and says they are raised in the home, with her children. So people can check it out for themselves if they choose. A puppy mill wouldn't let you do that!


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## java

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> I did a bit of research on the kennel Java is coming from and I must say I do NOT think it is a puppy mill.
> 1. The prices run from 1400 to 2800
> 2. They will NOT ship their puppies, they are hand delivered.
> 3. They give only LIMITED AKC papers with their dogs.
> 4. I see no Better Business Bureau complaints against them, and yes I have seen this when pulling up some Hav kennels.
> 5. They invite you to visit their kennel which is in their home.
> 
> I do think the photos of sold puppies on the site is a collection of puppies sold in the past, not just recently...notice the Christmas tree in the top one?
> 
> Sorry, but I just don't think a puppy mill or horrible BYB would insist the puppies are hand delivered, or picked up. I also think prices would be lower to get more customers.
> Health practices? Well they explain their feelings about that and do explain what they will do if your puppy becomes ill.
> Java's owner decided these people answered her questions to her satisfaction. Health issues can arise in the best breeding situations.
> Diego is healthy and his owner is now rethinking the way she purchased him.
> This forum helps everyone..recommend it to anyone you know if they are considering a Havanese...it is invaluable...I can't think of many questions that have not be asked and answered...just research the threads. Havanese Forum is a great place!!!


Yeah, i like them. They aren't the best of the best but they have things better than other breeders like the care of the animal being hand delivered, like you said. And any health problem vet bills being covered.
By the way, he is IN ROUTE now! I get to meet him in about 6 hours!
The breeder has been calling and updating me. His sister just got dropped off and he said they ran around for a half hour and he's taking a little nap 
I don't think the puppies are impersonal to them.


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## pjewel

You must be so excited. Can't wait to hear more.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

I think today is the day Java was supposed to be welcomed home...I don't think we have heard from Java's owner for 3 days...hope she will come back on and give us some photographs.
No, no one SAID they thought she purchased from a puppy mill or byb but she did feel the need to defend her choice of breeders.
Just hope all went well and Java is with his new owner. Can't wait to see updated photos of Java!!!


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## java

I'll post one tonight!


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Ok!!!! Glad you have him at home, how is he doing?


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## Kathie

Welcome to you and Java! Can't wait to see your new little guy! There is nothing sweeter than puppy kisses!


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## java

He's great! He warmed up really fast and he's playing and jumping around already. 
I liked the breeder, too. He was on the road since 9am. Delivered him at 10:30 pm and is driving all the way back home.

The pictures are blurry cause he would hardly stay still!


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## DiegoCF_Boston

He's absolutely adorable!!! He seems pretty perfect


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Sweet little guy! I know you are thrilled to have him. I hope he slept the night for you, and is not lonesome for brothers and sisters. Keep us posted!!!


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## krandall

What a cutie!


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## Kathie

Cute little fluff-muffin! Enjoy!


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## The Laughing Magpie

Very cute.


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## Momo means Peach

Awwww, what a cutie!


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## motherslittlehelper

Welcome, Java and ? (I'm sorry - I don't know your name) Such an adorable little guy. Have FUN with him! It seems we just brought our youngest guy home, and he is six months already. Hope you had a good first night.


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## clare

Ooh he ia as cute as a button!


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## Luciledodd

He looks like a little black lion--precious.


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## eso

Congrats! My boy is named Java too : )


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## java

Sorry, my name's melissa! And eso, it looks like we just have two little javas 

His first and second night weren't so great. His crate didn't get shipped til yesterday due to labor day and the weekend (i have one of the puppy apartments with two sections) so we tried putting him in the bathroom but he absolutely did not want to be out of our sight! I didn't know so much noise could come out of a little guy. So we partitioned him a little area closer to our bed and he was better but still cried. We are trying to train him now with the puppy pad and he doesn't really get it yet. He likes to lay on it as well as his bed. He thinks he's being a good boy when he waits for me to let him out and he goes on the floor. Any suggestions on that??
But otherwise he's doing much better in the crate. He was quiet last night except for once when he woke up and i comforted him a bit and he was fine.


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## java

I get him to stay still very seldom


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## Pipersmom

Oh Melissa, Java is so cute! Welcome to you both. 

Potty training can take a while and be frustrating, but stay consistent and he will eventually "get it".


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## Jplatthy

When mine were really young I always carried them from their crate to the yard...I didn't want to risk any accidents along the way.....


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## java

Well, i'm not trying to primarily train him to go outside. I live on the third floor and both me and my boyfriend work a lot so i wanted him to be able to potty whenever he needs, on his own.


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## Jplatthy

Oh then just try placing him on the pad and saying "go potty" or whatever word you are going to use...and if he starts to have an accident pick him up and carry him to the pad......and maybe have a pad in another spot that you actually carry him to and put him down on that one and tell him to go potty........I did try pad training in the beginning but my two shredded them so it ended up not being an option....but they did use the pads the short time I had them......I got the ones that had some smell that was supposed to encourage the puppy to use them......good luck


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## Jplatthy

and you can do a search for potty training and there are probably 100's of posts, tips, articles, etc that will help you out alot......


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## Luciledodd

Rosie is pee pad trained and it really is nice. All the years I had to go outside with my other dogs and they would take forever, especially in the winter. If Java has an accident, take the pee pad and soak up the urine. and I left the pad where Rosie went. Unfortunately it was right in the doorway. But I gradually pulled it away and then kept moving it as she got perfect until I have one out of the way in our livingroom, one in each of the downstairs bedrooms--she likes to poop where she can't be seen and one in our master suite. Actually I have just begun to put down one. I used to put at least two together and sometimes 3. They think that if they get close that is good enough. Now she will go outside everytime I take her out and sometimes she will ask to go out. But mostly if I am ignoring her or busy, she will use the pads. Interestingly though, she has quit using them at the office. She holds it until we get home--then straight to the back yard. Enjoy your little one, they are the most fun as puppies.


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## java

Oh, well that's good.
I'm just trying to work with him. I don't have the pad out in the open it's on the other side of his crate with a divider so as long as he goes in there, he won't miss. He's still trying to hold it though, instead of using the pad then he will go on the floor when he can get away from us. He's actually held it for 4 HOURS once. And he's only 10 weeks! If i were trying to crate train him, he would have it.
I think he is shy, and doesn't like us to see but right now the crate is by the bed to minimize whining at night.
He hasn't yet gone in there unless he had to.


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## StarrLhasa

Hi, Melissa,

I am not sure if I understood what you wrote, so I decided to ask. Are you saying that you have placed the per pad inside the crate intending for Java to per on this pad and also sleep in the crate?

If that is what you are doing, you may be making a mistake. The whole idea behind crate training is to reinforce the dog's not wanting to per/poop where it sleeps. You would want to have the pad away from the crate.


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## java

Yes. This is the product:
http://modernpuppies.com/

He doesn't go where he sleeps. He knows the difference. And it is only that way in level 1. The second step to the training is having the crate with the pad in it open into a playpen. And the third, there is no pen and no doors. It's so he can train himself where to go and not have to hold it when we are gone for multiple hours.
He is still in the first stage.


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## StarrLhasa

Sounds like an interesting idea. I had not heard of this apartment before.

Keep us updated as to how Java is progressing.


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## krandall

java said:


> Oh, well that's good.
> I'm just trying to work with him. I don't have the pad out in the open it's on the other side of his crate with a divider so as long as he goes in there, he won't miss. He's still trying to hold it though, instead of using the pad then he will go on the floor when he can get away from us. He's actually held it for 4 HOURS once. And he's only 10 weeks! If i were trying to crate train him, he would have it.
> I think he is shy, and doesn't like us to see but right now the crate is by the bed to minimize whining at night.
> He hasn't yet gone in there unless he had to.


This is what I mentioned with Kodi when he was a pup. I suspect that in the two part crate "apartment" you are using now, the pad is just too close to his sleeping area. To him, it's ALL his "den", so he doesn't want to potty there.

Karen


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## Jplatthy

I agree with Karen..that looks awfully close together..........I always had their crate inside of a gated off area off the kitchen and had pee pads down in there for them to use............and in the end it's really all about what works for you and your puppy.........if this isn't working...and it sounds like it might not be....then you need to try something different.............


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## java

Well, i don't want to give up. I'm trying to be consistent.


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## TilliesMom

good job being consistant, I hope it works!
Hope you are enjoying your sweet puppy!


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## java

Well, i am worried. Part of me wants to reverse this because all i keep reading is to not put a pad in the dog's den.


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## clare

One thing I found with both of my Havs,Dizzie and Nellie,was that neither of them liked to pee and poo in the same area,we used to have to have two pads with a good space between them.


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## Luciledodd

Like I have already stated, I have several scattered around the house. It is the one upstairs near the bed that she mostly uses. And today she made me proud. She came and was scratching/pawing my leg and I asked her what she wanted, to show me. She ran to the pad touched it and ran back to the top of the stairs. I said outside and she took off downstairs to the back door and promptly pooped. Two and a half years I have waited on this moment. Now that I have told and jinxed myself, she will probably poop in the middle of the LR floor while our company is here tomorrow. Lord I hope not. lol


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

So happy for you...Rosie Rules!!! About Java... It is hard to decide how to train some puppies due to your circumstances. Whatever works and I do think that later on you can train to a different situation...don't get too stressed...the puppy will sense that too..


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## Chad Kevin

*Hi*

Hi all , this is Kevin and i am new here on this forum. Thanks


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## java

So, the concept of the puppy apartment is to let them basically train themselves to use the pad when they're contained. You treat them and let them out when you catch them doing it. I never thought java would get to the point where he would go onto the pad on his own if he had the option while he was out and about but he peed on his own FOUR TIMES tonight! It was his first time doing this, and he kept repeating it. He's really making progress. Now he gets his ex-pen. I thought it would take longer than this for level one but it's only been 5 days. Good product.


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## java

We actually caught his first time on tape. Here it is!!!
http://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a355/the_pumpkin/?action=view&current=IMG_1351.mp4


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## TilliesMom

awwwww, SO adorable! what a smart little guy you have!!! Yay Java!!!


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## java

It's crazy how we got that on tape, just like that. We were just trying to get him being all cute running back and forth.


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## TilliesMom

LOL perfect!! he was even cute peeing!


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## Momo means Peach

The concept seems very interesting. It's great that Java seems to be getting the idea. Yay!


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## lanabanana

I was very lucky in that Baxter's breeder teaches her puppies to use pee pads from the beginning, so he already knew how to use them. I'm trying to move him to the outdoor potty area, though. He will always head towards the back door when he has to go and if I see him, then he is perfect. If no one notices, he'll just go in front of the door. I think we're making progress, though!

Welcome to you and Java :whoo: and good luck with the potty training!

Alanna


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## java

he's growing up so fast! I used to be able to put my hand around his body and now he already requires two hands


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