# Chondrodysplasia & cataract prevention vitamins or supplements?



## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

Hi Everyone!
I am a new Havanese puppy owner! Let me first say his name is Harry, he is Buff colored DOB 10-24-08 and a calm reserved puppy. I can not go back to the breeder for advice since his background is a little bit of a mystery.

From what I have read and seen pics of he has CD, in both front legs, but I would say not a severe case right now.
I have also read that pups who have CD almost always end up with eye issues, like juvenile cataracts, going blind etc.

so, basically I was interested in possibly preventing future problems. Any advice on supplements out there for purchase which may help his bone and eye health?
Like Nuvet, Ocuclear, vital pet, etc?
I am currently feeding wellness puppy and when we got him he was on eukanuba puppy.
He has an appointment to be neutered next month, so at least he will not be able to pass on his bad genetics. I will try to figure out how to post pics when I can. I live in a suburb of philadelphia, pennsylvania.
Thanks for any and all advice.
PS: can't seem to add photo, keep getting an error message from internet, saying to refresh etc, probably my file is too big, will try another time...


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Welcome, Sam and Harry! 

I have no knowledge about this issue, but am sure some others who know more will be responding. It seems a good thing that you at least know about it, have researched it, and are being proactive about it. 

Looking forward to pictures!


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Welcome to the forum!

Many breeds have osteochondrodysplasia and do just fine (bassets and corgis just to name two). If your puppy ends up lame (limping), you can have a ulnar ostectomy done (which is basically where they cut the ulna to allow it to straighten out to the length of the radius), but this is something you would want to have done before he is done growing. Check with your vet and if he/she doesn't know anything about this, ask for a referral to an orthopedic specialist.

Again, welcome!


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

*CATARACT PREVENTION?*

Any info or experience on supplements for healthy eyes or bones?


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

A veterinarian would be better able to assist you with this. They may be able to look to see if there is any documented medical studies that even suggest one leads to the other.


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## Paradise Havs (Sep 25, 2008)

I have a friend with a Hav with horrible osteochondodysplasia. She got him at about a year from a divorce situation. He was actually from a pretty reputable breeder. His front legs are so twisted that his elbows stick out and his front paws almost point backwards. It is a pitiful thing to see. He is 6 years old now and is very happy and active. He is showing signs of arthritis but no eye problems. When he has a long coat he looks normal, but oh-my when he gets shaved down for summer!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Welcome Sam and Harry. I am by no means an expert just some one trying to figure it all out too... When I got my 2nd pup Cash the breeder had suggested a 1/2 am egg yoke every day while he was a puppy and then a couple of times a week...I believe I read on here that the cholesterol could help with the CD but I am not certain...perhaps do a search for "daily egg" on here and see what comes up. Cash is slightly CD too.

My older pup Jasper seemed to have achy joints...so I have been suplimenting his diet with this product here.

http://www.arknaturals.com/Sea-Mobility-Wheat-Free-Venison.aspx

although the label says give him a 1/2 a treat a day (he is 18lbs) My vet said to give a whole treat to get a therapuetic dose. It seems to have really helped his energy level and seems to less uncomfortable. There are some crappy ingredients in there like rice flour and some sugary things...but they are organic and the suppliments and it has actually worked and the boys eat it (I give it to Cash dog too) and I don't have to go through a lb of cheese to wrestle a pill down their throats... The best price I found is at vitacost.com.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I would not give any supplements without consulting a vet or a dog nutritionist.


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## bentimom (Oct 10, 2007)

my breeder said to give my two havs one tsp of egg yolk powder every day
michelle charley and belle


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

Welcome Sam and Harry! We'd love to see pics when you can get them up.  I would suggest you get him in to the vet and see what can be done to help him. There may be things you can do now that may not be available to you later. Like Kimberly has mentioned, if surgery is an option for him, you would have a better chance to help him now while the bones in his legs are still growing.


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## awedwards (Mar 22, 2007)

Hi Sam. Sorry to hear about your puppies problem. Ask your vet about Cosequin, a supplement. It could help to lessen future arthritis. Basically, it helps to maintain the cartilage level between the bones. As dogs age (and humans), cartilage decreases offering less cushioning between bones. In your case, this may happen quickly because the bone/joint position is not normal. Cosequin consists of Glucosamine and Chondroitin, both supplements are taken by humans for arthritis. You could find other products that contain these ingredients, but make sure they're of good quality (all supplements are not created equal). It's not a miracle cure, but I hope this helps.


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

*yolk and CD surgery results*

Hi ya-
So what is the down side to the egg yolk powder and would that be for the rest of his life, alos what is the acual benefit of the yolk.?

I am thinking that x-rays and surgery would be very expensive, and I wonder what the outcome is for dogs who have the surgery.?

Also, the website still will not let me put a pic in, any idea on how to make the file smaller, I think that may be the problem eventhough that not the error I get.?
Thanks for any and all advice.


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## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

Hi Sam, on the home front page there is information to size your photo. 

Titled: Information!!!! Sizing Photos Help to shrink your photos so you can post. 

I had the same problem at first. Good luck and anxious to see pics.


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

*Picture of our Harry*

I love the way Havanese look!


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

*one more*

I guess it takes a while for them to updat my signature, I posted his pic as my signature but it still is not diplsying, anyway I appreciate the help on when to go the have the pic downsized, and look forward to reading about everyone thoughts on my questions.
Thanks


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## awedwards (Mar 22, 2007)

Sorry, I forgot to mention that it's best to start taking the Cosequin at a young age (probably about 8 months for a Havanese) BEFORE your dog starts to show signs of pain. It can't regrow cartilage, it just helps maintain what you have.


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

*when to neuter?*

When have you neuter/spayed your dogs?

So, any thoughts on when I should neuter Harry? His DOB is 10-24-2008. He has mild CD, and from what I was reading online it may be benefical for his bones if I wait?????? Until when? How much benefit would he really gain? He has not yet lifted his leg, and I don;t want that to ever start!


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Sam375 said:


> I can not go back to the breeder for advice since his background is a little bit of a mystery.
> 
> quote]
> 
> ...


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

I agree with Kathy. I would def start at your vet and get x-rays done. That's the only way to know for sure if it's cd. I had a puppy last year that had bone deformities in her elbow. Xrays showed her growth plates were still open, her deformity was in the joint of her elbow. I first noticed it when she was 6 weeks old. Her leg bowed out really bad. She started limping around 4 months old and I wanted to do the best thing I could for her. I did have the ulnar surgery done on her when she was 6 months old. It did not straighten her leg out, but she is running, jumping and playing like nothing was ever wrong. Yes, she still has a limp, and probably always will- she takes daily meds for joint health.
If you have any other questions, don't hesitate to ask!


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

I believe the puppy could be a mill dog But not for certain, which is why I say a mysterious background.

According to the images I have seen of soaped legged Havanese, and the way he looks soaped, he looks like a CD dog, which is why I believe he has it. 

An xray then would determine if the growth plates have closed, did not know that. So, I wonder if surgery is the only way to correct him as long as the growth plates have not closed? Then again not sure if he would have problems when older since it seems like it all depends....


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

Katie-
So surgery would just be to correct if the pup is suffering, not to prevent or straigthen? Harry is thus far not suffering, so maybe I should just stick with seeing if supplements may help him long term to prevent possible suffering in the future?
Thanks for the info....


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

First off, :welcome: to the forum Sam! Harry is a beautiful puppy. What a gorgeous color on him!

I'm not sure if I'm reading this right but it seems to me like you don't want to see a vet for the money costs? Please correct me if I'm wrong. If that is the case, I would strongly urge you to go to a vet regardless of your misgivings. None of us here are vets (there are a few vet techs, but no vets) and even if one of us were a vet I'm sure an x-ray and a physical examination would be necessary in order to understand what was going on with Harry. There are people who have heard of supplements but I don't think any of them have given it to their dogs without consulting with their vet first. It would be like giving yourself antibiotics without asking your doctor about it. Self medication can lead to unforeseen problems. Harry might have a bad reaction to a supplement and you might not catch it in time, etc.

We can definitely help you commiserate and point you in the direction of supplements to ask your vet about, but we can't help you by telling you what to do without you going in and getting that x-ray done and having your vet assess how badly off Harry is or isn't. Only a vet will be able to tell you if the puppy needs surgery or if he can live off supplements or what. We're not qualified nor experienced enough to be able to tell you that. I hope my post wasn't intrusive, I'm really trying to help you and your beautiful Harry as much as I can.

Also, Katie's pup, I believe, did not have CD, she had something else so her post about surgery not correcting the problem doesn't apply to Harry, I don't think.

Please keep us posted and I really hope you can update us on what your vet says.


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

I would never do anything without a vets consultation. Let me first clarify that I never hesitate to take any animal to the vet that is in definate need. Harry is in no way suffering or needing vet care at this second. He would be there right away otherwise. 

If there is supplements that would be recommended I would appreciate any suggestions/advice, because I would then take the information with me to the vet during a consult about his front legs. 

I do not currently know when I will take him to discuss his possible CD issue, especially since as of now he is unaffected by it :whoo:

I was thinking that when he goes in for his neutering that maybe they should x ray him then, and by then I can go in with all my questions including supplemental questions....


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## Elaine (Jan 17, 2007)

Welcome to the list and you have come to the right place for help with your cute little guy. I have to say that everyone is giving you very good advice and puppy mill puppy or not I am curious along with the rest why you think the puppy has CD. At 4 months unless the puppy is very deformed. A puppy does not have to have stick straight legs to not be CD. You need to understand that a dog with CD usually looks worse than a bow legged cowboy and has a round barrel chest. Your puppy is going to go through growing spurts and changes in the next few months. The growth plates usually do not close until he is between 12 & 18 months of age so at that time you will usually know. There was a study done regarding the feeding of egg yolk to help the growth plate during that time. You can give your puppy egg yolk at least 2 or 3 times a week until he is 18 months to help. As to suppliments you might, if you are worried about the joints, give him something with glucosamine (? sp) in it. You have a fun growing puppy and if you are lucky you will never have any problems with him. It sounds like you are trying to be proactive with him because you have concerns but please give him a chance to grow more before you pass judgement on him. Good luck and yes you can neuter him between 6 to 9 months of age and not really expect it to change much, I would go closer to the 9 months if possible. You also need to keep an eye on his teeth in the next couple of months and if you do a search you will find information on that subject.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

From the two pictures you've posted it looks like neither his feet turn out nor does he have short legs.

When you wash him, plaster his fur down with soap (the room needs to be really warm and even then you don't have much time so he doesn't get cold), have a camera ready and friend to use it, put a dark colored rolled up towel behind his front legs, plop him down and take a picture-you have to take a bunch to get one to use-and post the best one that shows his legs back on here. If the legs are bowed a little or a lot, you don't need an xray to see it.

When I met my wife Pam in the 1970s she was breeding Malamutes. The Malamute people were the first ones to use the term "Chondrodysplasia" back then. They had a big test breeding program in the mid '70s to figure out how to get it out of the gene pool. No breed standard calls for it. Much as in dwarfism in humans, it sometimes also comes with other problems but not always.

More on juvenile cataracts later, but let's see his legs first. You may be worried about nothing.


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

Tom King said:


> You may be worried about nothing.


This is true, as I have seen others post in our forum who thought their dogs had CD when there was nothing wrong at all. *fingers crossed that's all it is!

If you are suspecting something is wrong with his legs though, the sooner you have a diagnosis the better. That way your vet could discuss the nature of his particular problem and give you treatment options.


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

I am getting great info from you guys, thanks!
His right front paw turns out slightly when he sits. His elbows are also not below his chest, and he actually looks to be on a slant sometimes, I think his front legs are shorter than his back ones. 
Anyway, I will post soap pics when I give him his bath, which is usually Fridays. I think it will be fascinating to see what all the "experts" in here think. From what I have read there doesn't really seem to be much treatment options for the bowed legs until they become physically unable to maintain a quality of life?

Teeth, huh? I didn't know there could be issues with teeth....

I just want to try and do as much preventive care as possible, so he can have a long healthy life. I feel as if he spent most of his first few months in a cage, since he LOVES his crate, and runs inside it for security, he is a timid/fearful guy, and I think he deserves as much as we can give him.
Glad you all think he's cute.


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## boo2352 (Dec 18, 2006)

MacGyver had surgery on his right leg for chondrodysplasia. The surgery needs to be done before the bones stop growing, so I'd agree that you should see a vet who can do x-rays. Surgery is only needed when the problem is serious, and it mainly helps prevent later arthritis/pain, as far as I understand. The surgeon recommended we start MacGyver on Cosequin (glucosamine and chondroitin). He's doing just fine now and not in any pain.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Sam, you do know that Havanese are _supposed_ to be higher in the rear than at the shoulders, right?

Boo, what did the veterinarian diagnosis MacGyver as having? Did the vet actually call it "chondrodysplasia"?


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## marb42 (Oct 19, 2008)

Welcome, Sam and Harry! :welcome: Harry is adorable and has beautiful coloring! I don't have any information for you, but everyone's given great advice. I hope your puppy turns out fine! By the way, your situation with the puppy mill may have been similar to mine. I got mine online through what I thought was a breeder with a website. She had really nice pictures of the pups with a nice homey background and claimed they were all well socialized. I was able to talk to her on the phone several times and email her as well (even after I got Marble). This was my 1st dog, and I didn't know the first thing about puppy mills. A few months ago, I started digging harder and found out this woman actually is a commercial breeder with over a hundred dogs on site. They are kept in cages, not socialized as she claimed.  I was shocked! I don't think she was as bad as the mills they close down, but she definitely misrepresented herself. Anyways, good luck!
Gina


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

Hi-
I didn't buy him off of the internet, and I knew about not buying mill dogs, off the internet, etc... Funny, I think I still ended up with what is probabaly a mill dog... 
Anyway, we have 3 kids all 6 and under, and although we live on a acre of land, it is unfenced. No one wanted to rescue a dog to me or if they were a reputable Hav breeder, they were either extremely expensive, or because of my little ones they didn't want to sell me a dog!
I had a really hard time finding something small none shedding and with a non curly coat....
Anyway, I found a classified ad, the lady had 3 dogs, 2 Hav mixes and Harry. 
Of course she claimed the breeder that she was selling the dogs for did not have a hndred dogs, etc... I tend to not believe her especially after I did a little research on the breeder on his papers.
I think it is hard to find a good family dog that is NOT from a mill anymore. This area is filled with mennonite/amish millers.... But there is some amish mennonite farmers who ocasionally breed and have parents in kind hmnae conditions, but that's like finding a needle in a haystack.
I hope that everything works out with his health long term, and he is not another tragic mill case.


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## marb42 (Oct 19, 2008)

Sam, as I've learned more about mills, I've read that people will sometimes act as brokers. Perhaps that is what this lady did?? I was really clueless about all this, and it wasn't until I joined this forum that I learned so much. If I had found this forum before, I would have done things differently. But, what's done is done. You obviously care a great deal for your puppy, so I think he will be fine. Even if it was a mill dog, your puppy is loved and cared for now.
Gina


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Sam, I know exactly how you feel. We got Jasper under similar circumstances...I am allergic to every other dog but the Havanese. It was before I found the forum, and the reputable breeder in our area would not sell me one of her dogs because I only work from home 3 days a week-- and although I assured her we would get pet sitters when we were not home-- but that did not move her...So we got Jasper from a breeder who raised all sorts of red flags. But Ironically, it is our other dog from a reputable breeder who has the slight CD. But Jasper too...loves his crate and is cautious and you can tell that Cash was better socialized. 

But I have to say Sam... We did nothing with Cash except an egg yolk a day when he was a pup and at 2+years old he does RLH with the best of them. I give him the joint suppliments as a precaution with my vets blessing. But as everyone says you may be worrying for nothing, paws crossed that that is the case...Please keep us posted and can't wait to see more pictures.


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

See, I even have a good animal background, have a degree in animals, worked with animals all my life, and have a VERY responsible background with animals, I had no illusions on how hard it was going to be with 3 kids 6 & under and no fenced in yard, I tried hard to rescue or get a private reputable breeder... I knew about brokers, knew about millers, knew about there are now even millers posing as rescuers to sell their puppies. I tried to do the "right" thing, but we were completely discriminated against because of the 3 kids, and no fence. I found it to be absolutely ridiculous. I mean there are farms with dogs, no fences, kids who grow up with dogs all the time. Accidents happen, but that doesn't mean it's not gonna hapen with a person who has no kids and a fenced in yard. I am the one who has hurt the puppy, I was walking him and stepped on his paw...he's fine but the adult did it! I know someone who has a fenced in yard but their Hav puppy got hit by a car and died. That all being said I understand why breeders are cautious, and I respect that they want their pups to go to a good home, but I think there are some who are too strict. :focus:
It is promising that the Hav is not an overly bred dog, and usually has lower health problems and has a great disposition naturally, so I am hoping that my Harry will not be your typical tragic health issues mill dog. I am definatley going to look into any suggestions I find here and consult my vet.
Won't waiting until 9 months be too long to have him neutered? I was thinking 6 would probably be the most...?
Where do you get a quality powdered yolk?


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## boo2352 (Dec 18, 2006)

Kimberly -- MacGyver was diagnosed with chondrodysplasia by the surgeon who did his surgery. You could see major bowing in the x ray. 

Sam -- I have a friend at work that bought a Havanese-Poodle mix through similar circumstances. Comet is now a wonderful, happy dog. My friend's partner has MS, and Comet can sense how she's feeling. When things are good, the plays happily with their little boy, but when she's having a bad day, he curls up next to her and spends the day giving her kisses!


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

I thought the 2 little mixes the lady had would maybe be a little less of a risk health wise, but my husband picked Harry because of the way he looked and his color. Animals are amazing, its great that the Hav mix is that wonderful!


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Sam375 said:


> Where do you get a quality powdered yolk?


The Egg Store


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

look at him...
http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=12999118


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## marb42 (Oct 19, 2008)

He's so cute and has a gorgeous coat. Wonder why he was given up?
Gina


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

I know, was thinking maybe the economy, but on the description it seems like they are guessing his age...makes me wonder even more where he came from, there are even 3 Hav puppies on the petfinder site.


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## marb42 (Oct 19, 2008)

I'd say he's the cutest of the three! 
Gina


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

*PICTURES~*

all right, now I had a REALLY hard time, of course I tried to do it by myself becaue I had no other option. He kept sitting, not to mention shaking...
Anyway, I am leaning more towards he doesn't really have it, or very mild, but when does it really show up? His bone really sticks out in the front, like where his "wrist" is, So, what are all your "professional" opinions?


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Are you talking about this bone? I am no expert but he looks fine to me.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

His legs are absolutely fine!!! Both his feet even face straight forward and I don't see any bowing. The natural shape of the bones always shows up more in light colored dogs just from shadowing.

Here's a picture of our Roxies legs at 8 weeks that's in the Gallery.
http://www.havaneseforum.com/photopost531/showphoto.php/photo/145/cat/500/ppuser/5

Pam used a later picture of Roxie in the Judges Education Seminars presentation when she taught them for a number of years. That's as good as they get with a white dog and are considered ideal. The important thing is to look along the line down the inside of the leg.

We had a couple call us a day or so ago that hadn't had a Havanese since 1989. There's had CD and "all sorts of other problems" that they got from one of the first breeders and were excited to hear that there are breeders breeding away from it now. We have always bred away from it since our experience with Malamutes. I first knew that some Havanese had bowed legs when our daughter had us looking for our first. She told me that some had bowed legs. She was 8 years old then and it took us a year and a half visiting breeders to find one with none in their house.


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

Leeann-
yes that was the bone I was talking about.

I am leaning more towards him not having it:whoo:, but can he still get it?

Tomking-
I looked at the photo of Roxie, he is definately not as straight in the front as that pup, but I would say he favors the pic, except on the side view his elbow is higher or his chest come down lower...


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## Fairdale (Mar 11, 2009)

*Jumping in the middle*

Sorry to jump in the middle of your thread but I am curious to know if Hornigs farm is a good source for a Havie
My wife did some research and she wants another dog..Our Gizmo (peckinese and pomeranian) passed last year and the kids and my wife decided it was okay now to think about adding another pet to the family..
I have no experience with this particulare breed but my wife's friend has one and loves it dearly and it seems to fit our needs and we will fit its needs...
any help appreciated 
Thanks
[email protected]


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

Hi-
this is a great website to be on. petfinder.org have Hav for adoption, but I think you should read through the breeder sections of these forums and ask the question what should you look for in a quality av breeder, and see what responses you get. I also know that there is the havanese association websites which will also tell you the testing the breeers should be doing on their pairs which produce pups. You won't regret getting a Hav or even Hav mix...
They look like a possible Mill, I would inquire about parents and do a google search on the phone number. Also look at online classified listings like kijiji.com


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## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

I agree with Sam. I just searched looking for a post on what to look for in a breeder, but I wasn't able to find it. The fact that the one you mention breeds so many different breeds is very scary. They also do not talk about health testing. I am not sure where you are located, but there are many local havanese clubs that will give you a referral to breeders who do all of the health testing and are in good standing with the clubs. If you can, it is nice to visit the breeder and meet the parents and see where the puppy is being raised. If you are in PA (I see Hornings farm is in PA) check delaware valley havanese club for a referral. You may want to start a new thread asking about your specific area and see if anyone can help you find a good breeder in that location.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Fairdale said:


> Sorry to jump in the middle of your thread but I am curious to know if Hornigs farm is a good source for a Havie


If this (http://media-spring.net/hornings/) is the place you are considering, it says they have 11 breeds. If you assume they only have ONE breeding pair of each, which is highly unlikely, that is 22 dogs and a host of puppies of each, how do you think they live and are raised? In my opinion, this is the definition of a puppy mill.

If you missed the puppy mill video that Amanda posted earlier, you might want to take a peek and see what a puppy purchase from a puppy mill supports.





To answer your question:
*In my opinion, this is the worst possible source for a Havie.*

There are a lot of great topics on here about how to find an ethical, reputable breeder or how to find a dog from rescue. HRI is a great rescue for Havanese (havaneserescue.com) if you can't find a breeder that fits your needs/wants.


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## Fairdale (Mar 11, 2009)

I am glad I asked...a friend of mine suggested Hornigs farm. He and his family have used them for years but I did an search and foudn that they were cited for some voilations and I didnt want to support any mistreating puppy mills..
Thanks for your replies.. I'll try other resources such as the havanese rescue...
thanks again


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

They are a puppy mill 

http://www.nppmwatch.com/USDAPA08.html


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## Fairdale (Mar 11, 2009)

so where does one find a puppy for a reasonable price?
I like the havanese breed but it seems that no matter what you do you are either getting a puppymill puppy or puppymill puppy from a rescue...full breed could be too inbred and mixes could be ???
i'd like to do this the right way but I am frankly nto sure which is the right way at this point...everyone seems to know where the puppymills are...does anyone know of the good places to acquire a puppy? I appreciate all the info I really do I just dont feel like I am getting closer to a puppy...


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Fairdale said:


> so where does one find a puppy for a reasonable price?
> I like the havanese breed but it seems that no matter what you do you are either getting a puppymill puppy or puppymill puppy from a rescue...full breed could be too inbred and mixes could be ???
> i'd like to do this the right way but I am frankly nto sure which is the right way at this point...everyone seems to know where the puppymills are...does anyone know of the good places to acquire a puppy? I appreciate all the info I really do I just dont feel like I am getting closer to a puppy...


There are good, ethical breeder all over the country. You can find them by talking to them over the phone, asking a lot of questions, visiting dog shows and meeting breeders and seeing the dogs in the ring. Visit www.havanese.org and check out the breeder directory and while you are there, read ALL the information available about the breed, health testing, questions you can ask breeders and so much more. Visit local Havanese club web sites too, you will find breeders that way as well.

If you don't have the money for a purebred Havanese right now, then save your money and buy one when you can afford it.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

What does "too inbred" mean?

Frankly, I think you may want to save up to buy a puppy from an ethical breeder. The initial purchase price of the puppy is not really all that much when it comes to owning a Havanese.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Ha ha - posted at the same time as Kathy. Same thoughts.


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

Where do you live? I am sure there are some good breeders in your area, which is the best route to go. This way you will know the puppies history, along with the parents history- and they will be health tested. 
You are not going to pay a shelter price for a puppy from a reputable breeder. They run an average price of $1500+
But I truly belive you get what you pay for. Havanese are the best!


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

http://www.happy-havanese.com/index.html


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

MopTop Havanese said:


> You are not going to pay a shelter price for a puppy from a reputable breeder. They run an average price of $1500+


 Are you saying that shelters charge an average of $1500?

From an ethical breeder, I've seen prices as low as $1800 and as high as $2500. I'd say the average is closer to $2000-2200.


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

Fairdale said:


> so where does one find a puppy for a reasonable price?
> I like the havanese breed but it seems that no matter what you do you are either getting a puppymill puppy or puppymill puppy from a rescue...full breed could be too inbred and mixes could be ???
> i'd like to do this the right way but I am frankly nto sure which is the right way at this point...everyone seems to know where the puppymills are...does anyone know of the good places to acquire a puppy? I appreciate all the info I really do I just dont feel like I am getting closer to a puppy...


I think what this person means by inbreed is that a cheaper Hav would probably be a product of a mill, and would run the risk of being inbreed, ie, brother and sister producing pups, stuff like that.

For a person who is just looking for a decent health Hav as a pet, it is hard if you are on a budget. Especially since after you get the pup the costs add up... I wonder though in these trying times if breeders are finding it harder to sell pups, and if they are also maybe lowering prices as a result. 
I think that good Havs are pretty expensive and that is another reason why I think Hav mixes and other mixes have such a demand because of the "hybrid vigor theory" and the usually lower price since it is a mix. But with a mix sometimes you don't know what your dog is going to look like as a adult, but some people don't care about that. But with a mill Hav, you usually run a higher risk of health issues when older. At least that would be my non expert 2 cents.eace:


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

Havtahava said:


> Are you saying that shelters charge an average of $1500?
> 
> From an ethical breeder, I've seen prices as low as $1800 and as high as $2500. I'd say the average is closer to $2000-2200.


I think he's saying that a breeder wouldn't charge a shelter price, adoption fee, basically sounds like poster is finding the Hav's are too expensive


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Sam375 said:


> I think what this person means by inbreed is that a cheaper Hav would probably be a product of a mill, and would run the risk of being inbreed, ie, brother and sister producing pups, stuff like that.
> 
> For a person who is just looking for a decent health Hav as a pet, it is hard if you are on a budget. Especially since after you get the pup the costs add up... I wonder though in these trying times if breeders are finding it harder to sell pups, and if they are also maybe lowering prices as a result.
> I think that good Havs are pretty expensive and that is another reason why I think Hav mixes and other mixes have such a demand because of the "hybrid vigor theory" and the usually lower price since it is a mix. But with a mix sometimes you don't know what your dog is going to look like as a adult, but some people don't care about that. But with a mill Hav, you usually run a higher risk of health issues when older. At least that would be my non expert 2 cents.eace:


 OMG!!!! I am shocked that people would actually buy into this "hybrid vigor theory" but that is what advertising is all about, getting someone to buy something they know nothing about so often. I suppose that is why so many have paid big bucks for what they call "designer puppies" which really are mutts!! No matter what is bred to what, good and bad genes are passed on. Inbreeding/linebreeding is NOT a bad thing, I happen to believe in breeding that way and have produced wonderful Havanese. Breeding should be done ONLY to improve the breed and not to just produce puppies. Studying pedigrees, researching health stats, going over the dog, understanding the standing, socializing puppies, feeding the best you can, caring for the dogs before, during and after breeding, showing your dogs, all of it is important to continue the betterment of a breed.

If someone doesn't want to buy one of my puppies, that is fine with me. Getting a nice purebred dog isn't cheap. It's sorta like the difference in buying a Mercedes vs a Chevy. If it's something you really want, then plan for it, otherwise, go to a shelter or rescue.


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

OOOHHHH, seems like I hit a nerve, if you notice my post I put hybrid vigor, and THEORY and it is in quotes, of course the designer dogs are mutts, but in the same regard didn't most purebreeds result from some sort of mix? Of course I will be corrected but doesn't the Hav have Bichon in it's original lines? As with TONS of full breeds, didn't they originally come from mixes. Anyway, I am of course am not expert, just giving food for thought. People of course would need to try and find good reliable information and make their own conclusions to all the info out there on all sort of things.
No need to get bent out of shape.:croc:

It is also hard for some good people to get a shelter or rescue dog.


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

I got Ellie at a pet store and eventually got papers on her through the American Canine Association. They state the Sire and Dam but how do I find out more about these parents? The ACA says that's not information they release.

The breeder is named as Donna Shores http://www.donnaspups.com/. She clearly says her site is set up to advertise for a few breeders in the area (Oklahoma). So is this a puppy mill? Or is this really a community effort? It doesn't seem right that I can't get any information about the parents. Is there anything one can do about that? I don't think they're AKA because Ellie is not.

I'd like to comment as to why I bought a dog in a pet store. I know I could have found a reputable breeder somewhere in the country who might have sold to me, although I too, don't meet all the breeder's requirements.

But my biggest concern is that puppies, like babies, have personalities and no matter how young, they're not all the same. I wanted to find a puppy whose personality felt "right" to me - a puppy where I felt we'd get along and have a natural affinity, if you will. It seemed to me that buying from a breeder would prevent me from really choosing MY dog. Even if I had a litter to choose from, and even if I flew half way across the country to meet the litter, it's still one litter, one set of parents - what if I really didn't connect with any of the dogs from that litter? Would I just go home again without a dog?

I should note that when I went to the pet shop of my choosing, they had about 5 Havanese from different parents. There was only one dog who "spoke" to me - and that was Ellie. I took one look at her, held her for a minute and to my own surprise, I found myself saying emphatically, "this is my dog!" If that hadn't happened, I'd have left the pet shop and come back in a month or two when they had a new batch. This isn't an option with a breeder.

If anyone knows how I can find out more about her upbringing and her heritage, I'd appreciate it. I do have to say that when I got her she was totally comfortable with people and not at all fearful of any person. It was kind of amazing. She also had some idea of what a wee wee pad was for, although that idea was a little sketchy 

Louise


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Hi Louise,

Do you know The parents names and from kennel/breeder they are from? If you do not know that info, then....??

Ryan


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## awedwards (Mar 22, 2007)

A mix of 2 different dog breeds can produce a healthy dog, but so can 2 dogs of the same breed. The key to producing a sound puppy is extensively health testing the parents. To produce "hybrid vigor" you really need a larger gene pool than just breeding one breed of dog to a different breed of dog. It would have to be a mix of 3 or 4 breeds of healthy dogs to have an effect. In addition, a lot of breeders of designer mixes do not do any health testing. I was considering getting a Labradoodle at one time, but could not find a breeder in the UK that screened both parents for the common problems of the two breeds (hips, eyes, von willebrands disease). If you breed a Lab with bad hips to a poodle with good hips, you still have a very good chance of a puppy with bad hips. I have no problem with designer mixes as long as the breeder health tests and raises the puppies in an ethical way. All breeds of dogs were designer mixes when first starting out. The moral to this is do not ever buy a dog that doesn't come from health tested parents unless it's a rescue. It's just not fair to the dogs. Rant over.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Sorry, but yes, that's either a puppy mill or a puppy mill broker. No reputable breeder sells puppies to pet stores. A website and belonging to some registry means nothing. Anyone can start a registry. Only if the registry is set up strongly for the protection of the dogs' health is it worth anything at all.

Any breeder is a practicing geneticist. They can either know a lot, know little, or go by assumptions. There are many more of the latter two. Genetic Diversity can be a good thing or not depending on how the breeding pair is selected. If the gene pool is intentionally made smaller to eliminate known problems and where they come from, it's a good thing. There is a LOT of genetic research being done these days on purebred dogs. Havanese has a LOT more genetic diversity than most of the other breeds.

Here is a good start for anyone wanting to learn something about Canine Genetics.
http://www.canine-genetics.com/


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

What about this? http://www.ehow.com/how_4682481_trace-dogs-family-tree-pedigree.html

http://www.purebreddatabase.org/pedigree_pups

http://www.pedigreedpups.com/reading-pedigrees.html

http://www.justanswer.com/questions/whqj-trace-dobermans-lineage


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Here is the Havanese gallery http://havanesegallery.hu/ with a lot of Havanese in the data base. I am not sure you will be able to find the parents though. A lot of those registries, I could go in get any dog at the shelter, send in $20 and call it whatever, breed I wanted and for an extra $30 it could be a champion too.

I too wanted a dog with a specific temperament that spoke to me. It just took me a lot of time and visiting many breeders to find it. I saw many litters of puppies which isn't a bad thing! Ironically, when I look back I only had one puppy to chose from, but after many talks with the breeder, I thought it was the right puppy for me. I flew up and knew it was but wanted to make sure I didn't rush in and I went home without him and then went back to get him again!

I think there has been a lot of talk lately about how healthy show dogs are etc. All those stories where people are talking about shelter dogs they got who were healthy and lived to so many years. I just recently visited a shelter and I think what they forget to talk about is how many older shelter mixed breeds are put down at an early age. I was at the shelter and there was an older bichon they had upfront who was 9 years old and blind in one eye and kept trying to play with Dash (who had no problem bouncing on this old lady!) but had a horrible time getting around. You could see her spirit and how playful she was so it was so painful to watch her struggle. While they didn't know her story and she was an older dog- 9 still seems really young to me to be moving like that and blind in one eye already.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

> The breeder is named as Donna Shores http://www.donnaspups.com/. She clearly says her site is set up to advertise for a few breeders in the area (Oklahoma). So is this a puppy mill? Or is this really a community effort?


Okay I looked a the website and did a simple google search. By community- Donna is currently in the process of liquidating a 150 dogs including 6 male and 6 female havanese  So it is probably a mill and it looks like havanese aren't one of the breed sell outs 

http://nopuppymills.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=427&sid=b4bdf86102dce29ccd18cdc7294accf3&p=1292


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

louise said:


> I got Ellie at a pet store and eventually got papers on her through the American Canine Association. They state the Sire and Dam but how do I find out more about these parents? The ACA says that's not information they release.
> 
> The breeder is named as Donna Shores http://www.donnaspups.com/. She clearly says her site is set up to advertise for a few breeders in the area (Oklahoma). So is this a puppy mill? Or is this really a community effort? It doesn't seem right that I can't get any information about the parents. Is there anything one can do about that? I don't think they're AKA because Ellie is not.
> 
> ...


Sorry Louise, but you seem to have the wrong concept of what a reputable breeder is. Getting a puppy from them, is exactly just doing what I put in bold when quoting your post: getting the right pup that fits you! 
Breeders try to produce healthy puppies, they socialize them, etc. and have a good feeling for their personalities and are therefore able to match them to the right family. Who says you are only stuck with one litter to choose from? If you talked to a breeder that forced you to pay a non-refundable deposit and be stuck with one of their litters, you unknowingly got the wrong one. Most breeders know other great breeders and don't mind referring you if you choose not to get a puppy from them. Also, having waited 20 years to finally get a dog, I know it is hard to wait for the right one, but a dog IMO is not an object that we buy out of 'I want it now and can't wait much longer'. 
To me, there simply is no reason whatsoever to buy a dog from a pet store and that's it. I am waiting for the day, where the government finally prohibits the purchase of dogs and cats in pet stores, like they did in Germany in the early 90's.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Louise, I tried to look up info on the ACA (never heard of them before) and they don't much information about who they are. I don't even think they are a true registry, but more of a database. I'm not sure of what their point of existing is except to give a piece of paper to a pet shop dog owner. (Their FAQ page doesn't exist, nor do they even allow you to register a dog with them unless you already own 5 dogs registered by them. That's bizarre.)

The only way to get info on the parents of your dogs and how she was raised is to contact the breeder, and even then, you may not get much information if she has that many dogs. If she has hundreds of dogs, do you _really_ want to know?


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

Thanks - after you found this I did some more checking also. I guess Havtahava was quite correct when she said a while ago that there is no such thing as a good pet shop.

Fortunately, the only problem that has arisen is giardia, which is not easily responding to treatment but the only "symptom" she has is loose stools - not diarrhea.

However, under these circumstances, do you think it would be wise to have her CERF tested? The regular vet looked at her eyes and said she didn't have cataracts - but that might not be a thorough enough test. Any other tests I should have done even though she seems quite fine - I have to say, a very happy and good natured dog.

I also put in an application with petshoppuppies.com to see if there are many complaints against this particular breeder or pet store, and the nature of the complaints. 

Louise


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

Well, I might not want to know, but I do. There seems to be enough information around, now that I know how to look, to strongly suggest that she came from a puppy mill. The breeder is presently auctioning 150 dogs!

The breeder did not answer questions as to the size and weight of the parents, nor any other information.

Other than giardia which is not responding to treatment at the moment, she seems perfectly healthy. And I have no indication that the parasite is making her ill, other than somewhat loose stools.

However, under these circumstances, should I have her CERF tested - any other tests I should do? Would there be any point?

I also put in a request for information from petshoppuppies.com for any history of complaints against the breeder and/or the pet shop.

Your thoughts?

Louise


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

Hi-
did you try using google with the womans name, her phone number and things like that? I am sure you did, but I just used google to find everything out.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Sure, having a CERF done on her eyes annually is good for all Havanese. It will let you know if there is anything developing that you cannot see. It would be very unusual for her to have cataracts this young, but not impossible. They usually develop a bit older.

Just for the record, it wasn't me that said there is no such thing as a good pet shop, but I _do_ agree with the statement.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

There is no use to CERF test until after their first birthday unless you just want to check. It won't hurt but during the first year there is often stuff floating around in their eyes anyway. It usually settles out after the first year. You can of course have her eyes looked at but that's the reason the test is not even certified until after they are a year old.

A little more information:
http://www.vmdb.org/history.html


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

My goodness, but this thread has meandered! lol

First of all, I'm very happy to see and read that Harry does not have CD or any inkling of any structural problems. :whoo: Sam, he is adorable ! Don't worry and enjoy your little boy. - just please post more pics, 'k? :biggrin1:

Secondly, it can be pretty frustrating when off topic questions are asked and discussed in such informative ways, but not obvious to anyone looking at the subject of the thread. How is anyone else out there to know that we are now talking about pet shop pups, mills and loathsome mill operators and agents? I'm not trying to be picky, but it's a shame that important discussions get lost among so many pages of different threads.

Now, for all those who know me and how I feel about pet shop puppies, you know what I will say ...... and I tend to write waaaaayyyyy toooooooo much.

Maryam, you picked out the EXACT phrase that I was going to comment on. Of all the pros of getting a Hav puppy from a reputable breeder, this need of yours when looking for a new puppy, Louise, to be sure _"to find a puppy whose personality felt "right" to me - a puppy where I felt we'd get along and have a natural affinity, if you will."_ , that is exactly why one RECOMMENDS going to a reputable breeder. I can't believe that sitting among 5 Hav pups at this store, pups from diff. parents no less, and just waiting to get that 'feeling' is a better way than actually knowing the history, behavioral traits, health records and socialization techniques that you would get when visiting a good breeder. I'm not saying you would have known this - because I am the first to say that I used to think pet store pups were the cutest thing, and thought I would most definitely get a pup from there. (That was 3 yrs. ago before I knew any better).  But this is why I am so adamant about educating people on pet shop pups. There is soooooo much misinformation out there and the public is led to believe this is the best way to add a pet to the family. :frusty:

I have to admit that I cringed when I read "wait another month or two for a *new batch* to come in". What that means, is that those new pups coming in are providing cash for mill operators, agents and *@&%*! people in it for the money at the expense of dams and sires sitting in horrid conditions all across the country. The casual attitude that I used to have and that too many people still have is that the pet store will always have some puppy that you'll want. The supply never runs out. The pups are clean and cute and the 19 yr. old "expert" at the store assures you that they are the healthiest they can be. Sounds like a dream! :frusty:

Louise, I am glad you found this forum and are asking questions. I know you didn't realize all that comes with getting a puppy at a pet store and I see that you did check out petshoppuppies.com which I recommend to everyone who wants to learn more. I applaud you for your efforts at making sure your pup is healthy, but what you can also do is learn everything you can about the pet shop industry and then share that knowledge with everyone you know! It's the best way to get others to realize this is an inhumane industry, all for the mighty buck and has to stop!

O.k......... I'll be quiet now. For a while anyway...... :biggrin1:


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

Yes - that's how I found her so that I could ask the questions about the parents. She said she couldn't give me that information!

Louise


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Louise, the *breeder* said she couldn't give you that information???


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

I agree the thread has wandered and that it should be a separate thread that is findable. If there's some official person who could "fix" this, it would be great.

I got the report from petshoppuppies.com this morning. The breeder has over 100 adult dogs and at least 60 puppies. In 2004 and 2003 she was cited by the USDA for poor conditions but they were fixed. I doubt things have changed very much. She is presently auctioning almost 100 dogs.

The good news is that there are no "known" complaints against her, or against the pet shop. Since I can't get rid of the giardia, I did list Ellie and the pet shop with the information I have available. My hope and hunch is that I lucked out and my particular dog is ok. But yes, I've learned - and no - I would never do it this way again, and I would tell others not to.

I will have her CERF tested, but I gather she needs to be a year old before the results would be meaningful?

Louise


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Yes. We wait until their first birthday to CERF and then schedule an annual recheck every year thereafter.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Kathy said:


> OMG!!!! I am shocked that people would actually buy into this "hybrid vigor theory" but that is what advertising is all about, getting someone to buy something they know nothing about so often. I suppose that is why so many have paid big bucks for what they call "designer puppies" which really are mutts!! ...........
> 
> If someone doesn't want to buy one of my puppies, that is fine with me. Getting a nice purebred dog isn't cheap. It's sorta like the difference in buying a Mercedes vs a Chevy. If it's something you really want, then plan for it, otherwise, go to a shelter or rescue.


I agree that too many people still think that a mix of "stocky, tough" breeds means the dog will be healthier. I am often unpleasantly surprised by how many customers come through the boutique I work at, saying their "schnoodle" or derivative of, has the best of both worlds and isn't "inbred" or "delicate" like those 'other breeds' ! Unreal. It's simply a lack of education on the subject and the power of advertising, as you said, Kathy. I have some friends who will swear on a bible that a mutt is going to be healthier than a purebred, no matter what.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

*"The good news is that there are no "known" complaints against her, or against the pet shop. Since I can't get rid of the giardia, I did list Ellie and the pet shop with the information I have available."*

Unfortunately, Louise, there really isn't such a thing as 'good news' when it comes to mills, auctions and pet shops. The fact that there aren't any complaints against her doesn't mean that what she's doing is humane and healthy for all the dogs involved. Consumers often don't make the connection between parentage and breeding environment and the health of their new puppy, so they don't even know *to* complain nor to whom! You are lucky your little one only has giardia. I do hope Ellie feels better very soon.

SO many pups sold in pet shops are ill within days of purchase, but that doesn't stop someone like this from reproducing from the same dams and sires over and over again until their bodies are spent when they are discarded like yesterday's newspaper. She and others like her simply don't care. I am very happy to hear you've made a complaint. Thank you!!


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

We have a puppy lemon law, not sure if you have similar but it may benefit you at least in terms of $ reimbursement for the girardia treatment.


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

I looked at the New York State lemon law and it only applies to parasites IF the parasites are severe enough to seriously impact the health and functioning of the dog. 

In truth, aside from some loose stools, Ellie is fine - so there's no law that applies unless she gets a lot worse - which I'm certainly not counting on.

Louise


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## Sam375 (Feb 2, 2009)

But, I would talk to the seller and tell them you had to pay for a vet visit and medication and have copy of the receipts, they may offer something.


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## Demetra (Mar 17, 2009)

Hi, Everyone,

Let me just say first that you people are amazing, and I mean that in the BEST way! What a wonderful place for advice and support, which I'm hoping to get because I've just figured out that my sweetie pie Fluffy (I'm 99.9% sure) has CD. I've noticed her leg get crooked-er and crooked-er. It wasn't this way at first but began to show up a few months ago, and I just thought it was supposed to be crooked like a bassett hound (she's the only Hav I've ever seen). LITTLE did I know!! Now I wish I didn't know, because I'm so worried now!

Anyway, haven't gotten her to the vet yet, but plan to this week. She has no signs of pain or lameness at all, is the happiest, sweetest little girl you'd ever want to see. (Are ALL Hav's this wonderful?!) She is energetic, runs like mad, took a 1.5 mile walk with me today with no problems whatsoever. She's 21 months old, so I guess too late to give the egg yolks to help this.

I guess my main questions are this: Does CD mean she will have liver and heart problems for sure? (please say no) and Should I start her on liver support supplements now, before any metabolic problems show up? Like I said, I'm taking her to the vet this week for liver tests, etc. Will weigh in on that result later, and try to figure out how to get her picture on here. She's a doll!


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Demetra, welcome to the crazy Hav club! Please start a new thread with your questions, so that more people can chime in and answer them. As you may have noticed, the last posts were off topic and other members may not recheck this thread. You have to click on forums, choose a category (e.g. health issues and questions) and click on New Thread. Good luck!


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

I agree Demetra. This thread has gotton long and gone way off the original title. Please post a new thread so you can get support and answers to your questions! WELCOME to the forum!


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## Demetra (Mar 17, 2009)

Okay, thanks for the advice. Will go there next...

D


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