# Hi, I'm new here



## Elena v (Apr 20, 2013)

Hello!!

Been lurking and learning from this site for a while now, but this is my first post..I'm not sure if this is the right spot to ask this but here goes after learning of the most important things in searching for a quality breeder (health testing, socialization, etc.) I decided to send a deposit. It's totally refundable, that's not my problem. 

So, we go to see the pups. My heart melted at the cuteness, BUT, the place was not clean. Strong urine smell upon entering, adult dogs pee'ing where I was supposed to play with pups, etc. The mom dogs were eating the pup's poop!!

Is this normal? All health tests are done, I don't know if I'm being unrealistic. Just disappointed. Please advise. Thank you


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

Hi Welcome!
Have you checked health test results yourself at offa.org? I think I would be turned off by adult dogs peeing in the house, not too good a start for a puppy that you want to be house trained. How many dogs were there? As for dogs eating poop, Timmy doesn't, but some dogs do so that's not too unusual, but poop in the house hmmmmm. What did they say in terms of socialization? Were the adult dogs friendly? I'm sure others will chime in with their two cents, I'm certainly not an expert.


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## Elena v (Apr 20, 2013)

Thanks so much for answering my post. The pet health papers check out but, I was just expecting so much more. I fell in LOVE w one who I feel should be taken out of this squalor, that's just me tho.. They are not socialized w children, I don't have any young ones at home so don't know how much of a problem this is. 

We are experienced dog owners. Not with toy breeds though. Please share any advice. I understand there can be "smell" with so many dogs in a confined area, but I was shocked at the lack of cleanliness. Am I wrong?


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## jcbpaisley (Mar 6, 2013)

How many dogs and puppies were there and what was their living situation? In the house, puppies in an expen? And were the adult dogs peeing/pooping on the floor or just the puppies?


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## Elena v (Apr 20, 2013)

There were quite a few adult dogs, the moms, and others. The pups were in an x-pen. When let out, the pups ran loose and the moms ate the poop. Okay, yuck! Perhaps this is normal?

I just want to rescue this pup but at $2G, should I look elsewhere ?
Sorry if these question shouldn't be asked, just looking for advice. The breeder comes highly recommended so, I don't know? Not what I was expecting!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

How old were the puppies? The Moms do clean up after the puppies while they are still nursing. Once they start eating food, it should stop.


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## Elena v (Apr 20, 2013)

Timmy's mom: the adult dogs were very friendly & the pup we fell in love with was SO sweet. Yes, it appears the mom dogs were pee'ing indoors, something said about hormones? It was just not what we were expecting but not sure if I should hold this against the pup. Jeez, we just want to get it out of there! 

As far as socialization, don't believe they're exposed to children. 
Thanks for your reply, we are so confused.


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## Elena v (Apr 20, 2013)

Tom, thanks for your reply! They are 4 weeks old. Good to hear it's not unusual for mom's to "clean up". 
The breeder is highly recommended, so, maybe I'm just being too (something) can't think of the word, ha! 

We do have the opportunity to meet another breeder that has a pup, here comes the BUT..she doesn't do health testing to the extent the stinky house does. So, would you consider cleanliness & socialization over health testing & a maybe not such a great start? Is this something I can turn around?


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

bit of a red flag , the lack of cleanliness and housetraining. If you decide to take that one ,ask for it at eight weeks. Welcome


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## Elena v (Apr 20, 2013)

Thanks, Dave. 
It was said the pup might be kept longer due to its size (smallest). We felt the sooner we got it out of there, the better. They are not starting potty training from what we could see, I feel positive this pup would better in a clean environment. It was overwhelming!

It's our nature to rescue dogs, but again, at this price, should we look elsewhere ? Seriously.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Even at 4 weeks, the pups shouldn't be letting it fly any kind of way, but if left to run loose in a large area accidents can be expected. Way back when we were looking for our first one, more breeders than not sounded like the one you found. I'm pretty sure it's still that way. There are so many sideline breeders that just aren't there enough to spend a lot of time with their dogs.


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## Lily528 (Oct 3, 2012)

I think if you want to get a pup, find a breeder that does all the health testing and keeps a clean environment with well socialized puppies. They are out there. I also went to a breeder's home to check out puppies - they were all adorable but I was put off by what I observed with the adult dogs and decided to look elsewhere.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Elena v said:


> Hello!!
> 
> Been lurking and learning from this site for a while now, but this is my first post..I'm not sure if this is the right spot to ask this but here goes after learning of the most important things in searching for a quality breeder (health testing, socialization, etc.) I decided to send a deposit. It's totally refundable, that's not my problem.
> 
> ...


I would not buy a puppy from a place that was not clean and clean smelling. It's a lot of work, keeping a whelping area clean, but that's what good breeders do. Dogs do occasionally eat poop, but I'd hope that the breeder was doing their best to pick up all poop BEFORE the dogs had a chance to get to it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Elena v said:


> Thanks so much for answering my post. The pet health papers check out but, I was just expecting so much more. I fell in LOVE w one who I feel should be taken out of this squalor, that's just me tho.. They are not socialized w children, I don't have any young ones at home so don't know how much of a problem this is.
> 
> We are experienced dog owners. Not with toy breeds though. Please share any advice. I understand there can be "smell" with so many dogs in a confined area, but I was shocked at the lack of cleanliness. Am I wrong?


Lack of proper socialization and lack of cleanliness would be absolute deal breakers for me. If the breeder can't properly care for the number of dogs she has, which means keeping them AND the environment clean and odor-free.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Elena v said:


> Thanks, Dave.
> It was said the pup might be kept longer due to its size (smallest). We felt the sooner we got it out of there, the better. They are not starting potty training from what we could see, I feel positive this pup would better in a clean environment. It was overwhelming!
> 
> It's our nature to rescue dogs, but again, at this price, should we look elsewhere ? Seriously.


you have to make that choice lol.


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## Elena v (Apr 20, 2013)

Thanks to all! 
Heartbroken but seeing Is believing. 
Just can't get that pup outta my head :-(
This breeder means well, very nice & all that. Should we decide to go ahead & get the pup, can we turn it around? We've checked into puppy k-garden, etc., We just don't know. Would you check out the other breeder without all the health tests (doesn't do hips) but has a clean house & socialized pups, w children?

Thanks again


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Elena v said:


> There were quite a few adult dogs, the moms, and others. The pups were in an x-pen. When let out, the pups ran loose and the moms ate the poop. Okay, yuck! Perhaps this is normal?
> 
> I just want to rescue this pup but at $2G, should I look elsewhere ?
> Sorry if these question shouldn't be asked, just looking for advice. The breeder comes highly recommended so, I don't know? Not what I was expecting!


Where were the pups pooping? On the floor? Had the breeder not started potty training them?

ALL puppies are cute, and it's easy to "fall in love". You will NOT be "rescuing" a $2000 puppy. That puppy will find a home. You should be smart, spend your money wisely and PURCHASE (because that's what you are doing) the best puppy you can. You are making a (hopefully) 15 year investment. Do it wisely.


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## Elena v (Apr 20, 2013)

Thanks, Karen.

Advice well taken


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Elena v said:


> Thanks to all!
> Heartbroken but seeing Is believing.
> Just can't get that pup outta my head :-(
> This breeder means well, very nice & all that. Should we decide to go ahead & get the pup, can we turn it around? We've checked into puppy k-garden, etc., We just don't know. Would you check out the other breeder without all the health tests (doesn't do hips) but has a clean house & socialized pups, w children?
> ...


Nope. I'd keep looking, go further afield if I had to, and find a breeder who was doing both, even if it meant I had to wait for the puppy.


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## Elena v (Apr 20, 2013)

And, yes..pooping on/off paper aimlessly.


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## Beau's mom (Oct 6, 2011)

I think Karen is right. Why try to turn around a $2K puppy who has been exposed to so many negative behaviors -- and who has not been started on the road to house training? Havs are not the easiest to house train to begin with . . . And yet, I feel your pain about wanting to get that puppy out of there! Have you thought about discussing your concerns with the breeder? You said she is very nice, maybe it was a really off day -- and what's the worst that could happen? Maybe she'll tell you to take a hike -- and (just maybe) she needs to be told why you are going to!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Elena v said:


> And, yes..pooping on/off paper aimlessly.


Not good.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

ya, I can't fully understand a breeder doing all the health testing, but not socializing or potty training the pups (or adults!!) and charging $2000!??
I would totally look elsewhere. If you have that kind of money to spend, do it the RIGHT way, otherwise look into Havanese rescue and adopt a pup!!

This is an instance where doing your research and being patient will totally pay off!!
Are there any other breeders you are looking into? What area do you live in so we can help guide you toward breeders?


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

When you say, "the pet health papers check out" does that mean you verified the results at offa.org? If not, then you might not be getting reliable data about the parent's health.


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## marlowe'sgirl (Jun 17, 2010)

I'm just going to chime in and agree with everyone. Don't pay $2K for a 'rescue.' It sounds like you'll be fighting some bad habits, particularly with regards to house training. If you're willing to do that - get an actual rescue dog that needs a home. I suggest that you keep doing research and you find another breeder, even if that means a lengthy drive (or even flight!). 

Read some house training books and you'll see how important good habits are. Most will espouse a general mantra of don't let the puppy make a mistake and set them up for success. This often means as puppies, to make the space small enough that their only option is to pee on a pee pad or in a litter box (or sleep in a bed). Then as the space gets bigger, they'll still pee on what their familiar with. I did outside only training, so I tried (with mostly good success, and nearly no accidents after a month - all my fault), to only let my pup go outside and crate otherwise if I couldn't watch him. Dogs are creatures of habit. If they get use to peeing on carpet or anywhere in the house, you've got your work cut out for you to break that habit and form a new one.


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## sandypaws (Aug 8, 2012)

MarinaGirl said:


> When you say, "the pet health papers check out" does that mean you verified the results at offa.org? If not, then you might not be getting reliable data about the parent's health.


I agree with you. When I read the statement about "health papers checking out", I wondered if the "papers" where from a regular vet check or actual health testing with results on offa.

I definitely would reconsider this situation. Puppies are irresistible, but when they grow up with bad habits, they won't be so irresistible. Also, the uncleanliness of the breeder's home would definitely turn me off no matter how nice he/she is. Please think twice about it. There will be other puppies for you to fall in love with. Just do further research on breeders. Good luck in your quest.


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## Ruth4Havs (May 13, 2013)

I don't think I would risk it for a $2,000 puppy with all those not socializing, health testing, dirty enviroment, etc.. I bet there will be alot of other adorable puppies out there waiting for you and for a lower price. I took me awhile to find the puppy I wanted and found many others but for higher prices. _But_, if you are willing to do the socializing, work hard on housetraining, willing to pay $2,000, and make sure that your puppy is going to be a healthy Havanese, you _could_ get her. I'm no expert, but I think it's wise to consider looking for another reputable breeder. Good luck on puppy picking!


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## Elena v (Apr 20, 2013)

Many thanks to all for advice and experiences! 

The search continues, oh well....

PS. I really thought the $2G 'ish range was average?? for health tested pups?


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## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

Elena v said:


> Many thanks to all for advice and experiences!
> 
> The search continues, oh well....
> 
> PS. I really thought the $2G 'ish range was average?? for health tested pups?


It is, however, health testing is just part of the responsibility of a great breeder. Starting a puppy on housetraining, socializing, beginning grooming are things that you will want to look for as well. When any of us seek out a specific breed, we tend to be looking for some predictability as far as looks, temperment, health and early socialization are concerned. That is why we choose to purchase rather than adopt. If you purchase from a breeder that isn't being conscentious in the way he/she is keeping his/her dogs, then you are inadvertantly sanctioning those conditions. Walking away from this purchase toward a breeder that invests more of their time and energy toward ensuring the best possible start for your future puppy would likely result in more satisfaction with your purchase!


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## narci (Sep 6, 2011)

I echo what everyone else has said. $2K is quite a bit for a puppy that has to live in those conditions. You can judge the quality of puppy your getting by just looking at the price. Sometimes a good bottle of wine isn't the most expensive, a good bottle of wine is what you enjoy. 

Did the breeder ask you to fill out a form or ask you any questions to see if your the right owner of a Havanese? Most good breeders will screen future owners to see if their pups are going to a good family. The breeder will also help you choose a pup that has the personality your looking for or what personality is fit for you based on questions asked.

Whereabouts are you located? Maybe other Hav owners can help steer you to the closest 'good' breeder?


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## chataboutthat (Jun 6, 2013)

elena, what state are you in? surely there are better breeders around you!


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## Elena v (Apr 20, 2013)

Narci, yes we filled out a form. I feel horrible at this point because we believe the said breeder is on this list and has read my comments. Just to make myself clear, my "squalor" opinion is just that! I couldn't live like that, but so be it....

We visited a week ago and have had time to digest what we saw. My use of the word "rescue" was not appropriate. I just feel that the pup would do SO MUCH better in better conditions, but, it's just an opinion. (We have rescued dogs from shelters before and know what is involved) 

Sorry this is so long. As I stated before, I've been lurking here and have seen videos from Starborn Havanese ( I think) and that's kind of what we expected.... not what we witnessed. Onward and upward, but I do wonder what will happen to this pup that's so in need of direction. Thank you all, you've been a blessing !!


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## Elena v (Apr 20, 2013)

I want to say where I'm from but, ya know, I don't want to badmouth anyone. Everyone's opinions are different! There are a few here that have purchased from this breeder so maybe I'm just a neat freak, aka, weirdo, I don't know!! I don't want my pup stepping in its poopie!!


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## narci (Sep 6, 2011)

Elena v said:


> I want to say where I'm from but, ya know, I don't want to badmouth anyone. Everyone's opinions are different! There are a few here that have purchased from this breeder so maybe I'm just a neat freak, aka, weirdo, I don't know!! I don't want my pup stepping in its poopie!!


You don't have to name the breeder. A general area would be nice so the community can give you a list of breeders in your area where you can look.

I understand you really feel for the puppy but it's no different then going to a pet store and seeing the poor furballs all locked up knowing they came from a mill.

Maybe going to a second or third breeder and seeing other puppies will help clear your mind?


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

How old is the puppy?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Elena v said:


> Many thanks to all for advice and experiences!
> 
> The search continues, oh well....
> 
> PS. I really thought the $2G 'ish range was average?? for health tested pups?


I do think that is an "average" price. I don't have a problem with the price... especially for a pup that is raised the way I want one to be raised! I think that in some markets the prices may be a bit lower, while closer to metropolitan areas, the prices go as high as $2500 with some breeders.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

narci said:


> Did the breeder ask you to fill out a form or ask you any questions to see if your the right owner of a Havanese? Most good breeders will screen future owners to see if their pups are going to a good family. The breeder will also help you choose a pup that has the personality your looking for or what personality is fit for you based on questions asked.


Although NOT having a "form" to fill out doesn't necessarily mean there is a problem with the breeder. Some would rather ask these questions and learn more about the buyer in a more free-form way on the telephone or e-mail. Neither way is "wrong". The important part is that a GOOD breeder is very careful about the people they place their puppies with. They should ALSO, IMO. be willing to answer any questions and offer any guidance the new family needs as they are getting used to being "new puppy parents".


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Elena v said:


> Sorry this is so long. As I stated before, I've been lurking here and have seen videos from Starborn Havanese ( I think) and that's kind of what we expected.... not what we witnessed. Onward and upward, but I do wonder what will happen to this pup that's so in need of direction. Thank you all, you've been a blessing !!


While I think a lot of breeders may do a better job than what you described here, I have to say that holding EVERY breeder to Starborn standards Might be tough. (though that's EXACTLY the start I want for my dog(s) ) But to be honest, my trainer friend who went with me to check out the puppies and breeder before I got to know the Kings told me that in all the times that she has helped people choose a puppy, she has NEVER seen breeders as committed to doing absolutely EVERYTHING they could to give their puppies the best start in life possible.

I think we recently found another breeder who does as well, while looking for a puppy for a friend of mine, but that breeder breeds GSD's, not Havanese!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Elena v said:


> I want to say where I'm from but, ya know, I don't want to badmouth anyone. Everyone's opinions are different! There are a few here that have purchased from this breeder so maybe I'm just a neat freak, aka, weirdo, I don't know!! I don't want my pup stepping in its poopie!!


I don't think you're a neat freak or weirdo... I agree!


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Agree with above comments. Reputable breeders asking 2k for puppies should be putting in the proper time and technique into raising them, you can consider it a "service" that is built into the pricing along with all the other things. Good breeders actually keep the puppies in a very small area first, essentially a sleeping/eating area with mom and a potty area. Mom cleans #1 and #2 until they are on solids. Puppies should never be allowed free range, even after they are home with the family , as that doesn't provide the strucure puppies need to be housebroken. I would say keep looking, you may have to go out of state. Why pay 2k for a dog if there's a chance it will have housebreaking issues? Someone else will buy that pup, you go and spend your money wisely.


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## Elena v (Apr 20, 2013)

Thanks Atsilver & every one else. 

I know what my heart feels & what my head feels. It's just so hard. It's equivalent, to me, to seeing a pup at a pet store and at a reputable breeder.
I have older dogs with excellent, and I mean excellent, credentials as far as breeding. Have they been a walk in the park? No! But, I got what we put into them. They are the BEST.

It's just hard to walk away.


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## Elena v (Apr 20, 2013)

How do I see private messages? Please help !!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Elena v said:


> How do I see private messages? Please help !!


I assume you mean send? Click on the person's user name, and you will see a drop down menu. "Private Message" is one of the options... I think, the second one, but I can't remember for sure. In any case, click on that, and it will open a new window with the private message box for you to type in!


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

I had an experience last weekend that reminded me of this thread. For years I have been taking my lab to a dog day care when we travel. i have been happy with it except for last year, when I picked up my dog I noticed it smelled a bit (never happened before). He also had blonde hair on his bed (he's a chocolate) which made me wonder if they were sweeping out the "apartments" on a regular basis. I've taken him there a couple of times since then and haven't noticed any smells so assuming that was a one-off. 

But it was enough to put doubt in my head that maybe it is on the decline and I should look at other places. I'd always heard rave reviews about another facility, so I decided to check it out. A couple of people I know with dogs swear by it, and it has excellent reviews on Yelp. I decided to pay a visit during normal business hours. I walked in and the smell of dog urine was overwhelming! Like really bad. The staff seemed very friendly and professional, I could see the play areas and they looked clean and the dogs seemed to be having fun. But I'm not sure if I can give it a try on the basis of that smell....even though everyone else loves it. But I could say the same for where I go - what if my first visit had been on the day it smelled? I probably wouldnt have gone there again either. And other than the smell, i have never had a problem with that facility and my dog stayed there for a month once when we were out of the country.


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