# When Breeder go wrong



## uptownbabe (Oct 21, 2007)

Hello Everyone,

Thank you for taking the time to read my post. I am having a problem with a breeder. They weren't registered with the USDA, but I am starting to think that I have been dealing with a puppy mill.

I made a mistake and bought a puppy sight unseen. Where I live, they are not too many people with havanese puppies for sale and if they have them, they might only have one or two. I have another havanese puppy that I bought the same way and I was extreamly happy with her, that I thought, why not get another one.

I bought a puppy online last week. The breeder sounded very caring about the pup. She was so convincing that it sounded like it was breaking her heart to sell him. She told me he was 4 months old, 6lbs (it was even stated in the ad for him), fully akc registerable, and up to date on his shots. Things about him sounded great, so I bought him.

Once he arrived, he wasn't what I was lead to believe he was. He was huge!!! 14LBS! I thought I was scammed. He appears to be an adult to me. He was very dirty, all his hair was badly matted, even around his rear and genitals. He looked sickly. The breeder sent no akc papers nor his shot records with him. I called the breeder and asked what was going on.

I was upset and I called her up. She avoided my first two calls. Finally when I did speak to her, she changed her story. She claimed that she never said what his size was and that she sends all the paperwork sepertly. Her website states that the paperwork is suppose to come "with" the dog. At one point she threatened that she wouldn't send his papers at all.

I was left with no choice but to file a dispute with paypal. Now that I have done that, she is threatening to put a hold on my AKC rights for him.

I am worried that if I close the dispute, she will block me anyway.

Does anyone have any advice on how I can protect myself? Is it possable for me to contact AKC?

The sadest part of this story is that for all she said about loving him, she never asked for him back.  Not that I would give him back, because I DO love him, but it's sad that she wouldn't fight for him.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Gosh, I'm SO sorry to hear you are having a bad experience 

I just learned recently that some breeders won't send the AKC paperwork until you prove the dog has been spayed/neutered. Was that in the contract? Was the dog flown to you w/o papers?

I think you may have a point of recourse w/ Paypal, I don't know though.. I have never filed a dispute with them, so maybe someone else knows.

Does the vet think the dog is older than what was 'claimed' by the breeder? 14 lbs is pretty big for a 20 week old pup.

Hopefully, someone with more knowledge on what to do can help you, I just thought I mention the S/N contract for papers?  It sounds like it is much more than that, though.

hugs,
Kara


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I'm not sure that you can do much, but if you can, I think you'll need a few pieces of information:
- Do you have documentation of where she states his size?
- Does your vet give an estimate of his age?


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

uptownbabe said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to read my post. I am having a problem with a breeder. They weren't registered with the USDA, but I am starting to think that I have been dealing with a puppy mill.
> 
> ...


I'd call AKC and see what they have to say. Did you take him to a vet for documentation and an age estimate?


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## uptownbabe (Oct 21, 2007)

Thank you all for responding. I did take him to the vet. The vet said he was about the age the breeder claimed him to be. I didn't have a spay/neuter contract. I don't mind that he's bigger, I would just like to register him. I plan neutering him and I would never send him back there. He's got a much better home here! 

I will try to call AKC meself and explain the situation to them. I'll keep you posted. Thanks


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Wow, what an experience. I'm sorry you had to go through that. Your vet said he did appear to be 20 weeks old? Fourteen pounds at 20 weeks? 

Kimberly, Jan, etc, is that possible for a Hav to be that large at such a young age?

At any rate uptownbabe, he's much better off with you. No matter what his size, he's in need of loving care. I do hope you can get some resolution to the false advertising though. You definitely didn't get what you paid for (as six pound pup)


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Your puppy is 4 months old and weighs 14 pounds?


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

At that age, and fourteen pounds, I suppose anything is possible, but I wouldn't think it is likely. I'd suspect it is a Hav mix at the very least, but the only way to prove that is through DNA. If the breeder isn't going to send papers, she/he probably won't allow you to verify the DNA either... but if the sire has had four litters, AKC requires DNA on file anyway, so I think you probably could get it done. It all depends on how far you want to push it.


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## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

What a bad experience you have been through and a good warning for others. Since you did not receive the dog that you expected, I would not be surprised if there are no papers. 

Your baby is a cutie, though, and I am sure you will provide a great home for him. How does he like his sister?


I look forward to hearing those great stories of 2 pups together.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I agree with everyone else. Fourteen pounds at four months doesn't seem to add up, unless he's a mix. When I was looking for my pup, I almost bought from a woman online who had the cutest puppies, but red flags started waving in the breeze so I decided against it. I was truly sad for months, but I wound up with the right dog for me.

Whatever this woman did to you at least your baby got a better home than he might have, given the circumstances. So glad he's in your loving care.

BTW, does he still have all his baby teeth?


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## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

Geri, your so smart. Good question!


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Thanks for sharing your story. What a horrible thing for her to do! I am glad you love the pup regardless. Sounds like he was in a bad place from the condition he was in when he arrived. I would not give her a dime. If you aren't showing him you do not need AKC papers anyway. I was too lazy to send my first 2 havs papers in. I only sent scudders in because I wanted to show him.
Who knows maybe he is a fast grower and he will stop at 6 month. Scudder did most of his growing before 6 months. Good luck!


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Me too, I was just lazy and never registered mine either, as they are just my pets, so I didnt think I really needed to. That is such a sad story, but with a happy ending as he is in his forever happy home where he is loved!! Thats the most important thing.


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## CapotesMom (Apr 3, 2007)

14 lbs?? Capote's full grown and hasn't gotten that heavy yet! I looked up his file and at 4 months he was just at around 5.5 lbs. 

Sorry for all the horror! Where do you live and maybe some of the people around here can point you in the direction of a good breeder around there..that is to say if MHS hits again.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

You *may* have gotten an inaccurate weight at the vet. Especially if one or more people were trying to hold him/keep him on the scale.

That happened to me once, the vet tech was putting weight on trying to keep Gucci still and I said "NO way is she 10 lbs!" so I placed her on the scale and it came up as like 7.2 or something like that...so there is room for error if he wasn't cooperative and still during weighing.

I would just politely ask for the papers and try to go that route, and hope that the breeder cooperates.

For those of yall that didn't register your pets..you guys are missing out on a WHOLE lotta junk email and junk mail trying to sell you pet insurance and "stuff". lol

Kara


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Oh dear! That is a typical puppy mill/backyard breeder story, I'm afraid. I agree that your pup is likely a mix of another breed with Hav, as I can't ever imagine a Hav weighing that much at 4 months! 

I would also consider not having the pup reg'd with AKC since it may not be all that important. You'd need AKC papers if you intend on entering activities, like Rally, Agility, etc... that are AKC run, but you could still do those things with other clubs so maybe you don't need the reg'n papers at all. Maybe?

What I would fight about, though, is the false advertising and the bad condition of your precious pup. I feel sooooooo badly for him!  Imagine if there are females there breeding one litter after another with no quality of life. Or that there are other, much younger pups in horrible conditions, barely cleaned up for their stressful trip on a plane to a buyer who has no idea! 

There is a way we can stop that. You mentioned her website.... would you mind posting the link here so we can check it out? If nothing else., maybe there's a way to stop this unscrupulous woman from conning other buyers. That would be a great thing! People like this make me very angry!


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

You may not have gotten the puppy you wanted, but you got the one that needed you. Pictures please, he is going to be a member of the our forum family. 

Hopefully paypal can do something, and the "breeder" will not got the money expected.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

mckennasedona said:


> Wow, what an experience. I'm sorry you had to go through that. Your vet said he did appear to be 20 weeks old? Fourteen pounds at 20 weeks?
> 
> Kimberly, Jan, etc, is that possible for a Hav to be that large at such a young age?


I guess anything is possible 
Some lines grow very quickly to start with and then stop. Other lines grow slowly and keep growing longer.


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## uptownbabe (Oct 21, 2007)

I was thinking that myself, that he is mixed. I contacted AKC this morning and advised them of my situation. The lady told me to call back once I receive my paperwork and they can register him online with me.

When I brought him to the vet, the vet did check his teeth and he does have his baby teeth.

I got a little baby giant! LOL!!!


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

That's okay. More to love and more to hug!!


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Do you know the parents names? Maybe you can register online if you have enough information and if the breeder registered the litter.

I'm glad someone at the AKC is helping you!

Kara


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

It definitely seems like he is a mix of some sort, but I'm glad that he found you and you can love him for ALL the puppy that he is! 

I think you are doing right by disputing it with Paypal. I have disputed an item with Paypal and they were great about giving me my money back, so hopefully this will be a quick process for you.


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## uptownbabe (Oct 21, 2007)

He was advertised on puppyfind.com Their webstie is www.whisperingpinestreasures.com Since my descretion with them, they have since removed what the weight is on their other puppies.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

YIKES!!

The fact that she sells "mini-Havanese" is really disturbing to me  I've never heard of that breeder, but we have some forum members in OK that may have?

Kara


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

I believe Oklahoma is a big place for mills also. 

I would be surprised if you ever get the papers, but I would not let up on it until you do. 
She lied to you and basically did scam you. Its awful. 

I wonder if she does not send the papers in a timely manner if you can file a complaint against her with AKC, since she is advertising AKC registered dogs. 

Or we could all email her daily until she makes this right. If you decide to keep him, I would think she should at least give part of your money back.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Thanks for the link. I checked......

She writes:* "Our puppies are limited to contact with us and are not available for local viewing by the public for this reason as well as safety reasons. Buying online is smarter and safer for all involved"*

*** Yeah..... no kidding! 'Smarter' for THEM!

Unfortunately, her website looks pretty good and the stuff she writes sounds real and smart.

*"We ask that if you are interested in breeding your pet, you do so responsibly! If you do not plan on breeding your pet Havanese, we recommend spaying/neutering your pet to ensure that he or she remains healthy."*

*** She doesn't mind that you breed your pet from her, just do it "responsibly"... whatever that's supposed to mean! I didn't know that spaying your dog allowed it to "remain healthy"! What about all you others that haven't s/n'd your dog because you are showing it and/or breeding? Shame on you for not wanting to have a "healthy" dog!! 

Oh brother......... don't know whether I should laugh or cry...... Kara, I do not like the part about "mini Havs" either.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

I've been trying to send her an email, but I can't seem to get it to go through. There is no addy spelled out on the site, or I'd just copy and paste it in my Outlook. That would work. 

I just want to ask about parents' health testing, very innocently of course.  I'd like to ask what tests they have and where I can see the results. I'd also like to know what the parents' AKC reg'd names are. After all, she says her pups are registerable, so the parents must already be AKC, no? Ya think??


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

You are a GREAT SPY, Marj!

Yes, get the parents names!! That way, maybe you can find the litter on the AKC site, if she registered them? And offa.org

That sounds pretty shady unfortunately  I mean, I know we've had this discussion before on 'breeder safety' but yikes. Not even an option to see the dog first? at all?

Kara


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

The only way you will get litter registration info is if the breeder gives it to her. AKC won't give that out.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

These types of "breeders" rarely give any identifying information about the parents. That was one of the issues I had with the one I finally said no to.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

I think this sort of situation is all to common. Its unfortunate that good people get 'taken for a ride' or whatever... It's to bad more people to not visit this sight BEFORE making the committment to get the puppy! Oh well.. Even though she is extra big, just more to love!


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

pjewel said:


> These types of "breeders" rarely give any identifying information about the parents. That was one of the issues I had with the one I finally said no to.


Yup, and that's the first sign of something wrong.

Kimberly, I'm glad to hear AKC doesn't give out that information actually. One has to be careful out there.

Kara, I know it seems a bit shady, but boy oh boy this stuff just ticks me right off! I mean, it's not even ME that it's happening to, but I hate hearing about people being taken for a ride, but even worse are the pups, esp. dams, that are used so these people can make money off of them. GRRRRRR !

Unfortunately, I can't seem to get an email addy to copy. When I click on "email", it opens up my hotmail acct. automatically, but wont' accept my bloody password! :brick: If I can email via my Outlook, then I'd do it right away.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

marjrc said:


> Yup, and that's the first sign of something wrong.
> 
> Kimberly, I'm glad to hear AKC doesn't give out that information actually. One has to be careful out there.
> 
> ...


Hmm...Just copy it to a word file/blank page and retype it manually, that should work.

The address is just a PO box, which means she obviously doesn't want anyone to know where she lives.

Kara


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

I want to do that, Kara, but there is no email addy written anywhere. It's just a box to click on, to email her.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

It also says if you want to pick up your puppy they will arrange a mutually agreeable place -- red flag, red flag, red flag! What are they hiding?


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Here it is:

[email protected]

That is what popped up for me.

Kara


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

uptownbabe said:


> I was thinking that myself, that he is mixed. I contacted AKC this morning and advised them of my situation. The lady told me to call back once I receive my paperwork and they can register him online with me.
> 
> When I brought him to the vet, the vet did check his teeth and he does have his baby teeth.
> 
> I got a little baby giant! LOL!!!


I would be surprised if you ever get the AKC papers whether you allow the paypal to go through or not.

I am so sorry this happened to you. I would agree with you though, it sounds like you got scammed. What if you contacted the BBB and the county human society where this breeder lives? Maybe they could check out her facility to make sure it is up to what their laws say it should be.


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## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

Well, he is really cute, Maggie, because I recall you just posted both their pix. But 14 lbs at 4 mos. is unbelievable. Biscuit is big, #15 lbs, and at 4 mos was about 4.5 lbs. Something doesn't add up here. But I'm glad you love him and he's lucky to have found you. So perhaps it was meant to be, and you can just chalk it up as a life lesson learned.


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## havaluv (Oct 15, 2007)

You absolutely can do a chargeback through paypal. I would do it right away. I agree with what some others mentioned here, I doubt that you will get the papers anyway. This person mislead and advertised falsely. At the very least, paypal will tie up her money for an indefinate period of time whether they side with you or her in the end.

When you file a dispute, Paypal will immediately make your money unavailable to her. Then they will offer the two of you a forum for airing your dissagreements. It can be just between the two of you, or you can escalate your claim and then paypal will assign someone to mediate the dispute. You could also make getting the papers from her a condition for dismissing the claim, if the papers are important to you. That will tell you for certain whether your sweet puppy is registerable or not. If she refuses the papers when it means she won't get her money, you have your answer on whether he is a mix or not. I really don't think you have anything to lose. 

I'm so sorry this happened to you, but I'm so thankful your puppy has found a loving home despite the issues! :hug:


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## windfallhavs (Oct 19, 2006)

The breeder has her health testing information right on her website:

*CERF, OFA, and BAER Testing*
We do not CERF, OFA, or BAER test our Havanese. We do not do these tests because they are not 100% conclusive. They are only good for one year and do not prevent a puppy/adult pet from developing a problem after he or she is tested. To say that a puppy will not develop any issues because he/she tested fine is deceptive. Therefore, we offer a 6 month health guarantee for all of our puppies! 


I hope that you get your papers and that everything works out. I don't think AKC can do anything for you unless you have the registered name of the sire and dam, or the litter registration number...but you never know! Good luck and keep us posted.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

I can't believe that breeder posted that about health testing right on her website and then was ridiculous enough to only offer a 6 month health guarantee as if it was the BEST THING EVER. How horrible.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Lina said:


> I can't believe that breeder posted that about health testing right on her website and then was ridiculous enough to only offer a 6 month health guarantee as if it was the BEST THING EVER. How horrible.


I agree with you Lina. Actually to me that shows her ignorance!


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## havaluv (Oct 15, 2007)

I just found your pictures on the other thread. Rosco is a dollbaby, so precious (both of them are!!!) ...I'm so glad he found his way to you and I hope this all gets worked out to your satisfaction! Good luck!


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## pizno (May 8, 2007)

Aren't these tests for the breeding parents, anyway? 
This person sounds very wacko. Imagine, not letting puppy buyers see your place - at all, ever! 

I'm so sorry you're having to go through this! 

Maybe the dad is Chubby!

Carol


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

I got her email addy and sent her a post. Unfortunately, she replied that she does not ship her puppies to Canada and wished me good luck. My email addy has dot ca at the end = Canada. Shoot! 

I just asked about the parents' health testing and what their reg'd names are, if she had any litter at present and if I could see photos.... oh well. Someone else will have to try, but I see Diane's quote and I guess I missed that. Looks like she doesn't believe in health testing! 

Well. Guess she knows what she's doing, right? :brick:


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Marj you could always tell her you live on the US border?  LOL..then again, her policy is out there and not a very ethical one, imo. Yes, those tests are good for a year, but that's because alot can CHANGE in a year. Egads...:frusty:

I really hope you get the papers for this dog and that wasnt' a lie.

Kara


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I think I'd let the papers go as he is so large,you wouldn't breed him anyway,and get your money back.That's what I would do and just think of him as a bigger package to love.He is cute!


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

uptownbabe said:


> He was advertised on puppyfind.com Their webstie is www.whisperingpinestreasures.com Since my descretion with them, they have since removed what the weight is on their other puppies.


I haven't finished reading the posts but I will say this was the very first breeder I contacted when looking for a havanese. I emailed them and asked them questions regarding health testing and their health guarantee. I never got a response so I called them and they never returned the call. I figured they must be hiding something and didn't want to answer those types of questions and dropped it.

I'm sorry to hear of your situation. It just goes to show that anyone can make a nice looking website. I am glad that the dog is out of there and with someone who will properly care for him.

Edit: ok I have read the rest of the thread and looked at their website. At the time I looked some of the stuff being mentioned was not on there. They didn't have any mention of testing which is why I contacted them for the info, nor did they mention mini havs. I think maybe the other reason they never responded was because I said I would come to their place to pick the puppy up. There was nothing about not wanting them exposed to others.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I remember seeing them also when I was looking for a pup.Their website was quite a bit different looking showing a house with trees etc.Gave a great description about 2-3 litters per year all raised in their house.At that time most of the puppies were white/cremes.I remember liking their prices.....but I also no not remember any health testing mentioned at all.This was early on in my search and I would later find out about the health testing and find a good breeder with my little man,Quincy.I thank my lucky stars.....

I hope your guy Roscoe continues on a healthy path and you get this resolved with the breeder.


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## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

I'm looking at Roscoe's picture again, and thinking he looks like another breed may be mixed in. He looks a bit like an Irish wolfhound, or a Portuguese water dog, or. . . there may be something mixed in there to account for his size. In any case, he is a beautiful dog. What is his personality like?

I would try to reverse the Paypal charge, as someone else advised. . .


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Amy R. said:


> I'm looking at Roscoe's picture again, and thinking he looks like another breed may be mixed in. He looks a bit like an Irish wolfhound, or a Portuguese water dog, or. . . there may be something mixed in there to account for his size. In any case, he is a beautiful dog. What is his personality like?
> 
> I would try to reverse the Paypal charge, as someone else advised. . .


http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=2427 Are you looking at the same dog I am? The cream one posted at that link?


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Jan, no, Roscoe is the bigger black and white one.


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## Gracie's Mom (Sep 7, 2007)

The file names indicate that Roscoe is the all white one. I may be wrong, but log off to see the file names.

Karen


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Karen, I didn't even look at the file name... I'm just basing my assumption on the fact that it looks like the little white dog is wearing a dress in her avatar and I thought that Roscoe was a boy. Maybe I'm wrong.


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## arlene (Jul 28, 2007)

If you do a "save as" on the pictures - the black and white one comes up as Roscoe. He does look really big (cute but big) although pics can be deceptive.


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## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

I am certain he's the black and white one, but I'm not sure why. Well, I guess cause obviously the cream one is very small.


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## CinnCinn (Mar 30, 2007)

This is so frustrasting. Marj, I'm with you. It makes me crazy just thinking about it! Their website is deceivingly sweet. Having this post is a great reminder of who is really out there, and this conversation spreads the word of what to ask & look for when finding a new furbaby.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I just assumed he was the black and white one because the creme one is small and no way 14 lbs. Maybe I am wrong though?


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

He is the black and white one......I saw his picture either on this thread or another.Cute black guy with a mustache.:eyebrows:


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## WPTreasures (Nov 20, 2007)

*Response to this Post!*

*This is a response to Bridget Gately's posting regarding our Havanese puppy Alexander.

Ms. Gately contacted me about purchasing our Havanese puppy, Alexander. She seemed very nice and I felt secure in the knowledge that she would give him a good home. Alexander was listed on our website for $500. plus shipping and it stated that he was 4 months old. A weight was not stated because there is not a weight standard for Havanese; there is a height standard (please refer to AKC's breed standard and Havanese Club of American standard).

When I attempted to return Ms. Gately's phone call the same day she was irate, vulgar, and would not listen to reason. It was impossible to have a rational conversation with her shouting and rudeness. No, we do not attach important puppy paperwork to our puppies' crates when they fly because it is possible for them to become lost! All AKC paperwork and shot records are sent via some trackable means so that I can be sure they arrive. Alexander's AKC paperwork was sent on 11/17/2007, the day after he was shipped via FEDEX. The tracking number for this package is 790876598030. This tracking number was provided to Ms. Gately the same day that they were sent to her. You can track this package at www.fedex.com! It included his AKC paperwork, vaccination record, and his puppy care kit.

Alexander was NEVER advertised as being 6 lbs. As you can see from his photos, he is not 6 lbs! He is 4 months old and is a chubby, healthy GROWING puppy! From his photos, it is easy to see that he is not small by any means. Before he was shipped to Ms. Gately, he was given a bath, was brushed, and had a bow placed in his hair. He was NOT dirty or sickly. He was shipped with a blanket for his comfort also!

As it states on our website, just because someone is interested in one of our puppies, does not mean that they are able to purchase him/her. We screen our puppy buyers carefully. Each puppy must have a completed deposit form received also. On Ms. Gately's deposit form, she circled breeding so Alexander was purchased with the intention of breeding. It is now apparent from her postings that Ms. Gately honed in on Alexander because he was listed for a lower price on our website with the intention of purchasing the least expensive puppy to breed rather than feeling a connection with his photos. There are plenty of Havanese breeders located in NY if Ms. Gately would have felt more comfortable. If Alexander did not look like how SHE thought he would, she should have been responsible and forthright enough in her own misjudgment to say such and ask "what can we do about this"? We offered to accept Alexander back however Ms. Gately refused to "be out the money to ship him back."

Had I saw Ms. Gately's true colors before Alexander was shipped she would have received her money back and been asked to look elsewhere for a puppy. We screen our potential buyers and frequently turn away customers. It is apparent from reading the postings she has made on this forum that even after we provided her with a tracking number for Alexander's paperwork Ms. Gately failed to mention that and has continued to lead all of the members of this board to believe that she still has received no contact from us, her AKC paperwork, and is being wronged. That shows her deceptiveness. We have gone above and beyond to work with Ms. Gately with no success.

We are able and willing to fax proof of the FEDEX tracking number and Ms. Gately's deposit form as well as emails that state her AKC paperwork was sent to her to anyone who would like to verify these TRUTHS!

We are very concerned about our puppy's welfare in Ms. Gately's care. We want Alexander sent back to us now. We will issue a refund to Ms. Gately of $500.; which is the purchase price she paid for him. AKC has been notified and documentation has been notified. I have faxed over copies of her postings on this forum, the Fed-Ex tracking number, airway bill copy, AKC paperwork copy, and all other applicable information. Ms.Gately has shown that she has an anger management problem mentality and I wonder what she is doing to our puppy? Is he even receiving proper care? Our puppies are hand raised under our feet; we love them very much. It is heartbreaking to know that our puppy is in this situation. Is Ms. Gately taking her disappointment and anger out on our puppy? Instead of thinking what a healthy well fed puppy I have; Ms. Gately is obviously of the mentality "Oh, he is chubby and healthy and I am unhappy about it!"

I also want to thank Cameron, whoever you may be, for giving us the heads up about this smear campaign that this person probably thought we would never see. We think it's very appalling that people can get on the web somewhere and post vindictive untruths and other people jump on the bandwagon not even knowing if the information is fact or fiction. As previously stated, we have documentation to prove that the things she is stating is false. For those of you who did not jump on the bandwagon and smear us, we sincerely thank you. We have spent over 17 years raising and showing dogs and have never had anything even remotely close to this happen to us before. This would also be a good place to interject for all of those who believed that Alexander may be a mixed breed; his sire's brother (whom my grandmother owns) and great-uncle are both Champions!

Kind regards, 
Beckie and Jennifer Doyle

Alexander's Photos

*


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

I have a question for our breeders here on the fourm. 

Have you ever heard of a havanese that weighs 14 pounds at 4 months?

Just curious.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

At that weight, it could easily be 30lbs at adultdooh! Is that possible?


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I think Roscoe is adorable and having bigger Havs I can say that it doesn't nessesarily mean that they are mixed breeds-- There is no question in my mind that Cash is a pure Hav- and he was 12.5 llbs at 4 months- he is now 19 at a year. not typical but just as lovable. 

I don't want to throw around labels like puppymill- I don't think it is fair from just reviewing a website. I will say that some of those older pups in the wpt nursery have incredibly long legs for Havanese. I still think they are adorable.


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## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

Oh, that's good of you to post that info, Missy. I didn't realize that Cash was that big, too. So it's a relief to know Roscoe could still be a purebred Havanese. 

It's so interesting that Cash was 12.5 lbs at 4 months and is now 19 at a year. Because Biscuit was 4.4 lbs at 4 months and is now 15# at a year! Such a different growth pattern! Cash didn't even double his weight, while Biscuit quadrupled his !!


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

Missy said:


> I think Roscoe is adorable and having bigger Havs I can say that it doesn't nessesarily mean that they are mixed breeds-- There is no question in my mind that Cash is a pure Hav- and he was 12.5 llbs at 4 months- he is now 19 at a year. not typical but just as lovable.
> 
> I don't want to throw around labels like puppymill- I don't think it is fair from just reviewing a website. I will say that some of those older pups in the wpt nursery have incredibly long legs for Havanese. I still think they are adorable.


Wow, Missy

He grew alot in the beginning and really slowed down..I know there are alot of havs that weigh in Cash's range.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it at all,I was just asking...big hav/little hav...doesn't matter,but I was curious if their line was bigger all around.There are alot of people who would rather hav a bigger one.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Missy, 12.5lbs is a lot of 4 months but it's not quite close to 14lbs. I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but it does seem to me that 14lbs seems a bit excessive to me.

And you know how much I adore Cash and Jasper, but even you have said that your breeder breeds to the bigger end, as you have posted before, and that that's what you were looking for. There is nothing wrong with that at all. What really irks me about this breeder is that she is acting as if there is nothing at all strange about a 14lb 4mo old puppy! Or is that just me?


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

That seems HUGE to me. Usually they say to take their weight at 12 weeks and times it by 2.5 to 3 to get their adult weight! How many 57lb havs do you know- welll I do like Beardies 

Amanda


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

You know what I find odd, is that there are "BIG" havs and "MINI" havs, ya know?

Even though Cash slowed way down on his growth, that doesn't necessarily mean that Roscoe couldn't hit 25 lbs or more. I think the biggest Hav I've seen is around 20 lbs and that is from that breeder that wrote the "Havanese" book that all our dogs chew up! 

Kara


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Thumperlove said:


> I think the biggest Hav I've seen is around 20 lbs and that is from that breeder that wrote the "Havanese" book that all our dogs chew up!
> 
> Kara


ound:eace:ound:eace:ound:Crying,laughing so hard!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Amy, Jasper's growth was very different more like Biscuits-- I don't know specifically what he was at 4 months- I seem to remember 7 or 8 ibs- at a year he was 14 lbs and now at 2 years he is 16.5--And he grew a lot in height after he was a year old (I credit it to the puppy chow Cash came with and Jasper also ate LOL) 

Lina, 14 lbs is big no question- but I was quite shocked at the 12.5 with Cash- a month earlier he was not even 6lbs-- so it leads me to believe that the same make-up that make these guys have such a huge weight and height range and general could COULD account for the this size if in fact she is breeding towards the larger end. Sounds to me like a lot of mis-communication and a lot of ruffled feathers. But again some of this breeders recent older puppies have incredibly long legs for havanese- so who knows.

Perhaps "cameron' could come forward and let us know her experience with WPT.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Missy, I definitely understand that but she said in her post that although there is no standard for weight, there is a standard for height and she said it in a way that implied that her dog was within the standard for height. I could be wrong, but that's what it sounded like to me. Do you really think it's possible for a dog of that weight to be within the 11.5" max. height? I don't think it is.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Julie said:


> ound:eace:ound:eace:ound:Crying,laughing so hard!


Bwa haha. I knew someone would catch that!

I laughed SO hard when Amy told me that Biscuit chewed up her Havanese book the day after Gucci chewed up the "Siesta" program booklet, and when she was a puppy, she DID eat the corner of the Hav. book cover.

And I am a BOOK fanatic! I have shelves of books, books laying EVERYWHERE, by my couch, next to my laptop, next to the bed, etc. and constant library books in and out every week and she has NEVER touched any other book. Now, how is that for animal instinct? ound:

And back to the BIG Hav from Virginia's largest kennel, well...I am certain it is bigger than Missy's boys and over 20. They feed the dog human-food, not "homecooked dog food" (like I do and others, tailoring human food for dogs) but TABLE foods..Big macs, pizza, etc. The dog is almost 3 of Gucci at 8.5 lbs and Gucci is standard height.

Kara


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

I posted this on the other thread, but wanted it here too. Havanese can get big. Two I know of are 28lbs! ( Both of these dogs are in Rally and Agilitya nd doing well!) Stogie has a brother who is almost 20! Stogie is around 13lbs and he was the middle sized one in his litter. 

This dog probably is whithin height standard now. Stogie has been 14lbs and is obviously within Standard. But at 4 months, he probably wont stay in. This is a reason many breeders pet them out. 
The lack of health testing.... like I said in the other thread, IF thats true, I cant comment on. I just cant say anything nice about that.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I wish I was as polite as you, Melissa. I did comment on the health testing among other things. Oop. loose lips I guess.


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## WPTreasures (Nov 20, 2007)

Melissa Miller said:


> I posted this on the other thread, but wanted it here too. Havanese can get big. Two I know of are 28lbs! ( Both of these dogs are in Rally and Agilitya nd doing well!) Stogie has a brother who is almost 20! Stogie is around 13lbs and he was the middle sized one in his litter.
> 
> This dog probably is whithin height standard now. Stogie has been 14lbs and is obviously within Standard. But at 4 months, he probably wont stay in. This is a reason many breeders pet them out.
> The lack of health testing.... like I said in the other thread, IF thats true, I cant comment on. I just cant say anything nice about that.


Thank you Melissa. I very much appreciate you getting on the forum and educating the people here as to the height/weight issue of the Havanese breed standard. It has obviously turned out to be an educational moment here on this board; which I think is wonderful for the Havanese breed. We have over 17 years experience of showing/breeding a few different breeds. Prior to acquiring any new breed we spend hours upon hours of time researching the breed. I am glad that other breeders on here who did not know before now do know about the height/weight issue for Havanese. We try to educate our puppy buyers regarding the breed standard however is it hard in situations like the one that just transpired because of other breeders that are not entirely knowledgeable about the breed specifics. Had the breeders on here been knowledgeable about this when Ms. Gately posted her topic; what transpired would not have progressed as it did. Had they been knowledgeable about the breed specifics it would not have escalated into a smear campaign against good people who are knowledgeable and do breed to the Havanese standard. Within just a few days there was so much negative things wrote about us due to lack of knowledge about the Havanese breed. That is hurtful and it can destroy people's lives. We do not bash other breeders.

Regarding the health testing, we do not do these tests because we feel that they are misleading. To each his/her own.

Thank you, 
Beckie and Jennifer Doyle


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## arlene (Jul 28, 2007)

WPTreasures

My havs are 8 and 11 lbs full grown - But I am really curious - Have you had other dogs from this line? Were this pups siblings as large? Do they grow quickly in the early months and then slow down? Are the parents big havs? How big do you think this pup will get? He is cute!

Arlene


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Thumperlove said:


> You know what I find odd, is that there are "BIG" havs and "MINI" havs, ya know?
> 
> Even though Cash slowed way down on his growth, that doesn't necessarily mean that Roscoe couldn't hit 25 lbs or more. I think the biggest Hav I've seen is around 20 lbs and that is from that breeder that wrote the "Havanese" book that all our dogs chew up!
> 
> Kara


ound:ound:ound: You do have a way with words Kara. 
My dogs didn't chew mine, it dropped in the toilet....seriously and that was back before WW111


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

WPTreasures said:


> Thank you Melissa. I very much appreciate you getting on the forum and educating the people here as to the height/weight issue of the Havanese breed standard. It has obviously turned out to be an educational moment here on this board; which I think is wonderful for the Havanese breed. We have over 17 years experience of showing/breeding a few different breeds. Prior to acquiring any new breed we spend hours upon hours of time researching the breed. *I am glad that other breeders on here who did not know before now do know about the height/weight issue for Havanese. *We try to educate our puppy buyers regarding the breed standard however is it hard in situations like the one that just transpired because of other *breeders that are not entirely knowledgeable about the breed specifics. Had the breeders on here been knowledgeable about this when Ms. Gately posted her topic; what transpired would not have progressed as it did. Had they been knowledgeable about the breed specifics* it would not have escalated into a smear campaign against good people who are knowledgeable and do breed to the Havanese standard. Within just a few days there was so much negative things wrote about us due to lack of knowledge about the Havanese breed. That is hurtful and it can destroy people's lives. We do not bash other breeders.
> 
> Regarding the health testing, we do not do these tests because we feel that they are misleading. To each his/her own.
> 
> ...


Emphasis mine.

Which breeders might you be talking about? I think the breeders here are all pretty familiar with height & weight specifics. Since most of us show our dogs and make sure they conform to the standard.

And for that matter, what exactly is the height/weight issue for Havanese?


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

WPTreasures said:


> *This would also be a good place to interject for all of those who believed that Alexander may be a mixed breed; his sire's brother (whom my grandmother owns) and great-uncle are both Champions!
> 
> Kind regards,
> Beckie and Jennifer Doyle
> ...


I'm lost. What does his great uncle have to do with this? How does that make any dog a purebred?


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

JASHavanese said:


> ound:ound:ound: You do have a way with words Kara.
> My dogs didn't chew mine, it dropped in the toilet....seriously and that was back before WW111


Isn't it funny how certain things, even books...manage to meet their destiny in an appropriate manner? ound:




> Regarding the health testing, we do not do these tests because we feel that they are misleading. To each his/her own.
> 
> Thank you,
> Beckie and Jennifer Doyle


I really feel very SORRY and sad for people who adopt/purchase dogs from you.  Its a shame. Good thing there are places like this forum and other lists that can educate Hav buyers on the benefits of clearing the dam and sire of chrondodysplasia, cataracts, hip dysplasia, etc. That is a gamble that I, personally, would not take.

But like you said, to each his/her own.

Hang yourself if you so choose, lol..

Kara


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

WPTreasures said:


> We have over 17 years experience of showing/breeding a few different breeds. Prior to acquiring any new breed we spend hours upon hours of time researching the breed. I am glad that other breeders on here who did not know before now do know about the height/weight issue for Havanese. We try to educate our puppy buyers regarding the breed standard however is it hard in situations like the one that just transpired because of other breeders that are not entirely knowledgeable about the breed specifics. Had the breeders on here been knowledgeable about this when Ms. Gately posted her topic; what transpired would not have progressed as it did. Had they been knowledgeable about the breed specifics it would not have escalated into a smear campaign against good people who are knowledgeable and do breed to the Havanese standard. Within just a few days there was so much negative things wrote about us due to lack of knowledge about the Havanese breed. That is hurtful and it can destroy people's lives. We do not bash other breeders.
> 
> Regarding the health testing, we do not do these tests because we feel that they are misleading. To each his/her own.
> 
> ...


I have a couple of things to say about this and then I'm done with it. Buying a havanese without doing your research and checking the offa.org site for health testing and paying only 500 for one is... well.....not a good idea and you see the results of it.
Regarding health testing, how do you know you're not breeding cardiac issues, bad hips, bad patellas, etc if you're not health testing? If in fact you've done your research, you'll find health issues are hereditary so please jump on board and get the testing done. Granted, it costs money, but you may save a lot of heartache


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## CapotesMom (Apr 3, 2007)

I think the thing that concerns me isn't the weight of the dog or the he said she said. Obviously both parties are testy. Not once did uptown come across as negative or like she would be kicking around her new puppy (and to suggest something is downright obsurd). She sounded like she genuinely cares about her new puppy and doesn't want it sent back to an environment that might be considered bad for it. 

The thing that concerns me..no matter how much you speak of your puppies breeding and how much you care for them, you've yet do disprove anything she's said. If you sent the AKC papers, that's great, but they're just papers and they can be produced on a computer without a seconds thought. You don't allow people to come visit your home where you raise puppies and sell them and that to me is a MONSTEROUS red flag. I would NEVER purchase a puppy without seeing the environment in which it was raised and no amount of 'meeting you in the middle' would work for me if I were buying a puppy. 

Aside from that, testing is VERY necessary if you are breeding and selling your puppies as AKC and purebred. It's not about it's accuracy or having to get it done every year to make sure they're up to date, ask any breeder on this website and that's a given already. If you plan on breeding you should make these necessary arrangements in your budget to ensure that the puppies you sell are healthy and are bettering the breed no matter what your own personal beliefs are. 

Until these issues are resolved, and after reading everything said, I'd still be vitally uncomfortable with purchasing a puppy from you or anyone else who decides to take on the responsibility of breeding and doesn't fulfill these obligations. 

Get mad at me if you like, but that's the way I see it.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Thumperlove said:


> Isn't it funny how certain things, even books...manage to meet their destiny in an appropriate manner? ound:
> 
> Kara


Yup and yup. 
Hey I'm trying to be nice here....it's been a long day.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

CapotesMom said:


> Aside from that, testing is VERY necessary if you are breeding and selling your puppies as AKC and purebred. It's not about it's accuracy or having to get it done every year to make sure they're up to date, ask any breeder on this website and that's a given already. If you plan on breeding you should make these necessary arrangements in your budget to ensure that the puppies you sell are healthy and are bettering the breed no matter what your own personal beliefs are.


:clap2::cheer2::clap2:


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Another possibility.... is the dog was nervous and had anxiety on the trip... he could have drooled all over himself which would make him look like a mess. With Stogie, when he used to get sick, he looked like a wet mut when we got somewhere and thats after a bath!!! 

I agree... you should really consider the health testing... you would have to reproduce murmurs or other defects.... then raise the prices.... people WILL pay for the healthy dogs. It will work out in the end.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I just think if you sell someone a 4 month old pup who is clearly not of normal size, it might be a good idea to give them a heads up. When someone buys a 4 month old pup, they kinda have a picture in their mind of a pup half the size of what you shipped. Does this make sense? I know I would have reacted the same way.

Who cares about his brother, who are the sire and dam of this pup.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

UMM..

Is THIS why you don't Cerf your dogs anymore? On the picture you posted of the "Champion" dog that is your line, the OFFA reports show one dog tested with the kennel name Alszegi.

Is this your dog, or your 'moms' dog? Does it say the cataract "is significant"?

http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1231365#animal


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Lots of really bad things going on here from both sides. The breeder is not testing and then selling the pup to someone who wants to breed it. WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!! :frusty: :frusty:


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## CapotesMom (Apr 3, 2007)

uptown said she doesn't want to breed it..that was in her first post.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Ok guys..
That last message by Beckie and Jennifer Doyle was really odd eh? The way she is talking seems she thinks all the breeders on here are newbies and know nothing about the AKC HCA standard?? Shes somehow thinks she the knowledgable one here??? lol... *Ok, if breeders like her are the reason the HSD'ers left, now I FINALLY understand.. lol.. like seriously... *


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Oh my, I understand how everyone is feeling regarding this breeder after what she posted in the other thread and I agree with it all. But I do hope that uptown is not taking any of this personal. Some people are more sensitive and being new to the forum Uptown I hope you understand that none of this is geared towards you. Not everyone on the forum was educated on the importance of health test at first as well. Our goal is to try and help educate and prevent people from the possibilities of buying an unhealthy pup. You have just pointed out a breeder that goes against everything we believe in and its hard to hold back our feelings.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Are the parents not listed on the breeders website anywhere?


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

There are no adult dog on her website just young pups.


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

Beamer said:


> Are the parents not listed on the breeders website anywhere?


I looked and couldn't find them...I found the health guarantee interesting...If she sells you a dog that has health issues determined my the vet and she has to replace the puppy. You have to pay for shipping the first dog back, and pay shipping for the replacement pup and then you don't get a health guarantee on the replacement pup. So if it's sick too, I guess to bad for the buyer.

After paying the first $300 for shipping the first dog, then $300 to ship the sick puppy back, then another $300 for her to ship you the replacement puppy. That's another $900, tacked on to the original price you paid for the puppy in the first place...

It could get costly to buy a pup from her.
Now that's what I call a health guarantee.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Mindy, I totally agree with what you said. Mrs. Doyle, I'm sorry, but if you are not health testing your parents or pups and letting people know who the dam and sire are, what kind of championship they have, show soaped pictures and prove they are AKC registered as well as welcome future puppy buyers into your home, then I'm afraid all the *red flags * good breeders and knowledgeable Hav owners warn about are flying high and mighty for all the world to see.

Whether you've been breeding for 17, 20 or 40 years does not make a great breeder. There are huge trust issues when you refuse to divulge important information to future buyers as well as to peers in the Havanese world. You may do loads of research and inquiries into future homes for your pups, but why are you so defensive when they want to ask you the same? What are you afraid of?

It isn't what you are saying that I don't trust, it's what you are not.

Saying that, I do agree that there was a "campaign" of sorts putting your reputation out there for all to judge. I suppose having heard too many horror stories about puppy mills, backyard breeders and so-called "good" breeders turning Havanese owners' and pups' lives into nightmares make us all a bit leary and weary.

IF in fact you can show that you do test (though you admit that you don't - why you think they are inconclusive is beyond me!), that you have papers to prove AKC reg'n of your litters and dams and sires, that you can let anyone who cares to visit, actually SEE where these pups are raised, and provide soaped pictures to show straight legs, then perhaps well-informed Hav lovers, breeders, owners and supporters wouldn't be so quick to judge.

I'm sorry, but if the shoe fits............


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Melissa, this is your forum and I do appreciate you being nice but it really would bother me if I had my words twisted around the way that she did.

Melissa never ONCE said that Havs have a weight/height issue! Where in the world did you see that? She said that she has known bigger Havs and that is it. And breeders that do not breed to the standard are not, to me, respectable breeders. If a breeder wants to breed to their own standard, that's one thing, but then not to ADMIT it is ridiculous. If, on the other hand, this dog came out of the blue this big, you have to admit that it's unusual. Yes I have seen 20lb Havs but claiming that they are the norm or even close to being average is untrue.

Sorry Melissa, I just get really upset when people make wild claims. This is not at all geared towards you!


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

WPTreasures said:


> Thank you Melissa. I very much appreciate you getting on the forum and educating the people here as to the height/weight issue of the Havanese breed standard. It has obviously turned out to be an educational moment here on this board; which I think is wonderful for the Havanese breed.we spend hours upon hours of time researching the breed. I am glad that ot *We have over 17 years experience of showing/breeding a few different breeds. Prior to acquiring any new breed *her breeders on here who did not know before now do know about the height/weight issue for Havanese. We try to educate our puppy buyers regarding the breed standard however is it hard in situations like the one that just transpired because of other breeders that are not entirely knowledgeable about the breed specifics. Had the breeders on here been knowledgeable about this when Ms. Gately posted her topic; what transpired would not have progressed as it did. Had they been knowledgeable about the breed specifics it would not have escalated into a smear campaign against good people who are knowledgeable and do breed to the Havanese standard. Within just a few days there was so much negative things wrote about us due to lack of knowledge about the Havanese breed. That is hurtful and it can destroy people's lives. We do not bash other breeders.
> 
> *Regarding the health testing, we do not do these tests because we feel that they are misleading. To each his/her own.*Thank you,
> Beckie and Jennifer Doyle


I was just wondering.....I am sure it is on here some where or on your site, but how long have you been breeding and showing the Havanese dogs? And just what is it about the health testing that is misleading?? I am not being judgemental here...I am just curious.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Paige said:


> I looked and couldn't find them...I found the health guarantee interesting...If she sells you a dog that has health issues determined my the vet and she has to replace the puppy. You have to pay for shipping the first dog back, and pay shipping for the replacement pup and then you don't get a health guarantee on the replacement pup. So if it's sick too, I guess to bad for the buyer.
> 
> After paying the first $300 for shipping the first dog, then $300 to ship the sick puppy back, then another $300 for her to ship you the replacement puppy. That's another $900, tacked on to the original price you paid for the puppy in the first place...
> 
> It could get costly to buy a pup from her.


I dunno...... nothing sounds kosher to me here.

If it's only ignorance, then please, by all means, find a mentor in the Havanese world, a breeder who does all these things that we recommend potential buyers look for and do it right. Do it for the dogs, for goodness sakes.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

The sad thing is I don't THINK she is motivated by the breed, but more the money.
She is a young college kid looking for a fast buck. She is in a state that auctions off liters of puppies CHEAP and then resells them. If you look closely at her site, it pretty clear.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

:whoo:Wow, you ALL on this forum are awesome! You are telling this so called "breeder" what the facts are. I am so proud and impressed with you all. Now, I know you don't need that from me, but it sure shows how each of us have grown and learned from what has been discussed on this forum and shared on this forum from the knowledge we all bring to the "table" from past experiences and the willingness we all have to learn and accept new idea's. Too bad we can't say the same for this person!

I couldn't say anymore then what has already been discussed here. My hat goes off to you all!!!!

Red flags are everywhere to me too. Thank goodness we are all on the same page and trying to educate puppy buyers and the public to people who put two dogs together and have a litter. The number of years a person breeds, doesn't mean they are breeding for the betterment of the breed at all.

A 4 month old puppy that weights 14 lbs will be huge. Too big to be used for a breeding program yet this puppy was sold as a breeding dog. Notice she said a "breeding" dog, not a show potential.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Well, Jan, Kimberly and other terrific breeders on this site, looks like you've all been put in your place.......all those nasty tests that cost so much in time and money are all for naught. :biggrin1:

Gee ladies and gents, no need to show any of your dogs for a long while, after all their third cousin once removed on thier dam's side already has her championship. That's all ya need apparently...that ought to hold your lines for oh, the next 5-6 years at least!! So, kick back, relax and start pumping out those pups. Oh, and while your at it, lower the prices, will ya!

Sorry for the sarcasm, but geesh! 

Oh, and as for the weight thing, my precious Sedona, who was up to 19.5 lbs many months ago was a mere 9.7 lbs at 20 weeks (she's now 16 lbs because she wasn't naturally big she was overweight).


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Susan you are way too funny!


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

You know, Kathy, you are right. A lot of us have come a long way, though I can only speak for myself. A year and a half ago, I had no idea about what "reputable breeding" was. I never thought twice about possibly getting a pup from a pet store or from an ad in the classifieds of my local paper. After all, who needs to pay "all that money" when we could get a pretty good dog for so much less? What good are health tests anyway?

Linda has said it and I agree, some people (won't mention any names because that would be "smearing") aren't as interested in the betterment of the breed as they are in how much money this breed can get them. Yes, they may love the Havanese, but they should know better. When they refuse to learn in spite of facts staring them in the face and admit that perhaps some mistakes are being made so it might be wise to correct them well then I can't support that. I mean, you do your best in any part of life, but when you know better, you DO better. 

As to our new member posting with her queries and concerns, it is true that we do not "know" her, having only just heard from her very recently and perhaps she isn't the person she says she is. Whatever! The facts, as we knew them, were that she was mislead into getting a young Hav pup and pictures show that this pup, though most certainly a real sweetheart, is not at all close to the standard and it being sold as "breedable" is VERY scary!!! I have a "big" Hav too, at 16.5 lbs, but he would never make it in the show ring, therefore I'd never consider breeding him. It's as simple as that. That is how things work in the show/reputable breeding world.... at least from what I've learned in the past year.


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## uptownbabe (Oct 21, 2007)

Hello all,

I am pleased to let you know that I have received the package from Ms. Doyle, however I still have some concerns. Ms. Doyle and her vet state that the dog is 4 months old. However, the AKC papers state that he is five months old. Also, his shot records are not signed by the vet. Without the vets signature, they are useless according to my vet. If Ms. Doyle can straighten this out, I am willing to pay. As for the name calling, grow up. I didn't attack her personally. I only had questions as to the way she does business. As for breeding him, I marked her paperwork as "unsure". I did buy him with full rights, but didn't want to receive limited AKC paperwork. As for actually breeding him, no. I'm not a breeder. It's not something that I have the skill or knowledge for.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I'm glad you got your situation resolved.He is a very cute guy,and I sincerely hope you do follow through and have Roscoe neutered.I can't help but notice that you do have a female,and perhaps you were thinking about breeding in the future as Ms.Doyle says.I hope if nothing else,you have learned it takes alot more then sticking a male and female together.I personally think he should of had a limited registration right from the start to avoid this same breeding line again.Roscoe is a cute guy and will make a good pet...not a daddy.eace:


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## uptownbabe (Oct 21, 2007)

Yes I do have a female, however I bought her with limited registration. She has an appointment with the vet to be spayed in January.


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## Doggie Nut (Oct 20, 2006)

WHOA! LOOKS LIKE I'M LATE TO THE PARTY! YOU LADIES ARE SOME LITTLE SPIT-FIRES! IF I EVER NEED ANY DEFENDING I'LL BE CALLING ON YOU!


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

mckennasedona said:


> Well, Jan, Kimberly and other terrific breeders on this site, looks like you've all been put in your place.......all those nasty tests that cost so much in time and money are all for naught. :biggrin1:


Oh yeah, now you tell me after I went through heck keeping Ellie and Lightning apart while she was in heat. Look at all the money I missed out on! Darn, how could I ever be that dumb? I guess some of us will never learn. :brick:


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

LOL Vicki! Somehow I suspect you can hold your own, but you can definitely see the love for the breed oozing out by the forum members today.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

marjrc said:


> I have a "big" Hav too, at 16.5 lbs, but he would never make it in the show ring, therefore I'd never consider breeding him. It's as simple as that. That is how things work in the show/reputable breeding world.... at least from what I've learned in the past year.


I believe we have a good breeder on here with a 16 lb hav and it's ranked high. Don't get caught up in the numbers. You can have large boned or smaller boned havs. A 16 pound hav does not mean it's not show quality. 
Some like a very solid hav, others like the lighter ones and they can both be the same height and have a few pound weight difference.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Havtahava said:


> LOL Vicki! Somehow I suspect you can hold your own, but you can definitely see the love for the breed oozing out by the forum members today.


:amen: And it looks like we are doing our job by educating people. :cheer2:


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

uptownbabe said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I am pleased to let you know that I have received the package from Ms. Doyle, however I still have some concerns. Ms. Doyle and her vet state that the dog is 4 months old. However, the AKC papers state that he is five months old. Also, his shot records are not signed by the vet. Without the vets signature, they are useless according to my vet. If Ms. Doyle can straighten this out, I am willing to pay. As for the name calling, grow up. I didn't attack her personally. I only had questions as to the way she does business. As for breeding him, I marked her paperwork as "unsure". I did buy him with full rights, but didn't want to receive limited AKC paperwork. As for actually breeding him, no. I'm not a breeder. It's not something that I have the skill or knowledge for.


You set her up to be crucified on here so let's skip that part of it. You're not happy, she's not happy.....work it out between you, and if need be, bring AKC into it. I don't know you, I don't know your motives, but I do know that there are MANY websites with havanese puppies for sale. If you see most websites selling a puppy for 1800-2500 and buy one that's 500 it sounds like you're expecting a BMW for the price of a Neon. 
Hopefully you've both been educated and can come to some sort of agreement but this isn't the place to keep emotions running high.
As for the shots, there are some breeders who give their own puppy shots and from what I'm told there are stickers on the shots that can be given to the puppy buyer that show the dog has indeed gotten the shots. I don't know if that's the case here but vets do recognize those stickers from the shots as a general rule. If they don't, I'd want to know why not and why they want to pump the dog with more vaccines.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

_



Hello all,

I am pleased to let you know that I have received the package from Ms. Doyle, however I still have some concerns. Ms. Doyle and her vet state that the dog is 4 months old. However, the AKC papers state that he is five months old. Also, his shot records are not signed by the vet. Without the vets signature, they are useless according to my vet. If Ms. Doyle can straighten this out, I am willing to pay. As for the name calling, grow up. I didn't attack her personally. I only had questions as to the way she does business. As for breeding him, I marked her paperwork as "unsure". I did buy him with full rights, but didn't want to receive limited AKC paperwork. As for actually breeding him, no. I'm not a breeder. It's not something that I have the skill or knowledge for.

Click to expand...

__I am glad to hear this is getting resolved, hopefully Roscoe's shot record and "age" will be clarified for you and your vet, so that you may stay on the right track with shots and neuter. I wouldn't breed anything from a line with so little to NO health testing on it, that's just asking for heartache._

_I think your concern over Roscoe's papers, his size, condition shipped, etc. is justified. You didn't have to hang Whispering Pines, SHE did a spectacular job of HANGING herself. Whoever "cameron" is that handed her the rope...well, lol.. the noose tightens with every post!_

_I don't doubt that you love Roscoe and I hope everything is resolved._

_What are Roscoe's AKC Registered Parent's names?_
_Kara_


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

JASHavanese said:


> I believe we have a good breeder on here with a 16 lb hav and it's ranked high. Don't get caught up in the numbers. You can have large boned or smaller boned havs. A 16 pound hav does not mean it's not show quality.
> Some like a very solid hav, others like the lighter ones and they can both be the same height and have a few pound weight difference.


You are right, Jan. I know a couple of heavier Havs that are in the ring too! Now why didn't I remember that when I wrote what I did?? lol Debbie's Sam is on the heavier side too and he's doing great in the ring!

Other than Ricky's weight and size, though, he just doesn't have show quality features so in my mind he just isn't that type of Hav. But it's true that there are Havs in the ring that weigh more than the average 10-12 lbs.

Mea culpa!


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I was more shocked at that BIG of a weight at 16 weeks, not a 'full' grown hav or puppy even over 8 months. It makes you wonder about the growth scale, but looking at the pictures...I don't think I've ever seen Havanese with legs as long as "Ralphie",

http://www.whisperingpinestreasures.com/puppies.html

Jan have you seen a tall Hav like that in the ring?

Kara

Kara


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Kara,
Yeah, those are some longggggggg front legs in that pic of Ralphie! Maybe the picture was photoshoped? lol

Ryan


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

OK!

LOL..I was wondering if it was JUST ME that saw that?!? Or if my eyes were playing tricks on me.

Kara


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## Gableshavs (Jun 19, 2007)

WPTreasures said:


> Regarding the health testing, we do not do these tests because we feel that they are misleading. To each his/her own.
> 
> Dear Beckie and Jennifer:
> 
> ...


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

OMG Ralphie could be a "hava-ponydoodle" :frusty: (courtesy of amanda http://www.caninehorizons.com/The_Ponydoodle.html)

I agree with Jan that this needs to be settled between the two of you. Who know could have just been the day and you rubbed each other the wrong way.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Missy said:


> OMG Ralphie could be a "hava-ponydoodle" :frusty: (courtesy of amanda http://www.caninehorizons.com/The_Ponydoodle.html)


ound:ound:ound:


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Okay, that pony doodle has to be a hoax. As if a dog could live on grains and grass!! :frusty:


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Thumperlove said:


> I was more shocked at that BIG of a weight at 16 weeks, not a 'full' grown hav or puppy even over 8 months. It makes you wonder about the growth scale, but looking at the pictures...I don't think I've ever seen Havanese with legs as long as "Ralphie",
> 
> http://www.whisperingpinestreasures.com/puppies.html
> 
> ...


You guys are a hoot! I noticed those legs too! He is like a basketball player!


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Missy said:


> OMG Ralphie could be a "hava-ponydoodle" :frusty: (courtesy of amanda http://www.caninehorizons.com/The_Ponydoodle.html) .


ound:ound:ound:

You guys crack me up. I am crying from that picture of the Ponydoodle.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Now I can't even see the word Ponydoodle and I'm cracking up. ound:


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I've seen a few extra tall Havanese, including a puppy that got a DQ (disqualification) in the ring, but I have never seen a Havanese with legs like that. I hope that's the camera angle or something awry. That's definitely unusual. If the legs are even 75% as long as they look, no, you wouldn't see it in the Havanese ring because it would get measured out by someone for sure.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

My pomegranate juice just came out of nose with the ponydoodle comment! I think he has supermodel legs and you all are just jealous!

Amanda


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Seriously, I thought Fred had long legs, but that dogs legs are at least double what Fred's are.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I know! LOL I thought Gucci had long legs, but she doesn't. I've tried to see if it was an optical illusion (photo angle) but I just can't imagine! I mean, we see pictures on here ALL THE TIME from various angles, and nothing like that. lol

The ponydoodle comparison is cracking me up, Missy. lol......Supermodel, Amanda? LOL! Yall are funny. I bet he's as tall as a Jack Russell!!

Kara


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Thumperlove said:


> I know! LOL I thought Gucci had long legs, but she doesn't. I've tried to see if it was an optical illusion (photo angle) but I just can't imagine! I mean, we see pictures on here ALL THE TIME from various angles, and nothing like that. lol
> 
> The ponydoodle comparison is cracking me up, Missy. lol......Supermodel, Amanda? LOL! Yall are funny. I bet he's as tall as a Jack Russell!!
> 
> Kara


Maybe not Kara, remember the weights of her dogs. If you have a 30 pound hav, something has to hold it up unless the ponydoodle is willing to provide it transportation. :crutch:


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I am cracking up here too. But I hope you know uptownbabe that I am not saying anything bad about Roscoe. I think he is adorable and he looks very proportioned to me. from one who had a 12.5 hav at 4 months--- it's just more to love... (oh and the big boys can hold their pee longer...LOL)


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## arlene (Jul 28, 2007)

Okay - this ponydoodle thing is hysterical. The person who came up with that web page must have a great sense of humor and could probably market the idea - heck it could rival the My Little Pony, Pound Puppy, Beanie Babie and Webkinz craze . . . .


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## arlene (Jul 28, 2007)

Uptownbabe, please don't take offense to any of these comments . . . Roscoe is very cute . . . and I hope you have a long and loving relationship with him . . . and I hope we get to meet him at a playdate sometime.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Roscoe is super cute! Please don't take offense. I think the breeder coming on here and insulting you, the forum members, and doesn't health test...really set herself up.

The good thing is, that you and Roscoe found each other! 

I dont know Missy...Gucci's bladder has gotten pretty impressive for a little squirt, she can hold it 8 or more hours during the day sometimes 

Kara


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

OK, it's a day later and I still am cracking up about the ponydoodle.







And you guys are so funny, I will need Depends just to read this.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Thumperlove said:


> I dont know Missy...Gucci's bladder has gotten pretty impressive for a little squirt, she can hold it 8 or more hours during the day sometimes
> 
> Kara


Gucci is impressive for a GIRL... Jassy held it for 25 hours once because he was afraid to pee in the snow and refused to pee on his pads...LOL. at night he goes at 10pm and then often he will wait for his walk around 8a (as opposed to just going in the back yard--- he is a very fussy pottier)


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Omg, that Poneydoodle is a hoot!!!!! LMBO


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Thumperlove said:


> I know! LOL I thought Gucci had long legs, but she doesn't.
> Kara


No, she doesn't. Her soaps are very nice. You've got a great gal on your hands and in your heart.


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## uptownbabe (Oct 21, 2007)

No offense taken. Actually Roscoe has short legs. He's a lil' cutie pie. I must post more pics of him. I am open to the playdate idea as well.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

uptownbabe said:


> No offense taken. Actually Roscoe has short legs. He's a lil' cutie pie. I must post more pics of him. I am open to the playdate idea as well.


Laurie is in Trenton or is it Long Branch NJ, LOL (private joke), maybe you can make the trip? She is considering having another in the spring. Last time we had a huge turn out. She posted pics on a thread titled NJ playdate. Hope to meet you guys real soon!


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

So Linda has me moving - yet again!!! I do not live in Trenton!! Or Long Branch - Linda you are just too funny!!!!!
I am in Hillsborough, which is about a 1/2 hour 45 minutes north of Trenton. 
You must come to my next playdate!! I am so happy that we are going to have so many new pups next year. Now that dogs legs are VERY long!! Logan is even taller than Freddie, and that dog is twice as tall as Logan. Wow.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Laurie, it sounds like the next play date will be a hit! There will be SO MANY new pups to keep us entertained.


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## arlene (Jul 28, 2007)

I'm not sure I can wait till Spring . . . maybe we can have a video conference for the pups! Phoebe missed the last one and really wants to meet everyone!

Arlene


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

I am so excited already - we have two new puppies going to LI, one new pup going to Phila., We got Pheobe who needs to make it, Milo, who could not make it, Houston who has missed two so far - and any new forum members who want to come, along with the old timers. 
I predict 23-25 Havs at once!!! How exciting!!


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I am about to pack up and MOVE to NJ for these playdates!!!!! LOL Here I am stuck in a state where I own the ONLY Havanese!!!!!!!!!! haha. Tragic.

Kara


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## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

Laurie,
Who are you keeping secrets for this time? New puppy in Phila?:spy:


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## KristinFusco (Jun 5, 2007)

Hi Karen!

Unless I am mistaken, I think Laurie is talking about me! My husband and I own a place in Philly and rent an apartment in CT. Hubby is a trader at a hedge fund, and they have offices here in southern CT, NYC and down in Philly, so we have been back and forth for the last year. I think in January we are going to be getting rid of the CT apartment and moving back to our Philly place full time, and hubby will commute to NYC some days. It is his turn, since I have been commuting to Philly from CT for grad school for the past 6 months! 

Can't wait to see you and Brady this week!

~Kristin


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## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

Yeah! Two more havs in our area! Looking forward to seeing you next week!


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

You see Karen, I am building my empire, one Hav at a time. Eventually, we will have the majority of the Havs on the East Coast so the playdates will be HUGE!!! You have seen the pics of my yard, I have plenty of room!!!


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Laurie, if the pups are as good as they were last time, we can triple that number. :biggrin1: All those Havs and no fighting...just lots of fun and RLH. Even Kodi and Lily had fun. They even took a time out when we had lunch. They are the best.


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## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

Laurie and her empireound:. You are too much. Soon you will have your own island filled with havs. Ah, what a nice dream.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Karen - what do you think we should call my Hav empire?? Would that not be the best???? 

Michele, I am still to this day amazed at how 13 havs all got along, no one wandered out of the yard, no excessive barking - and your right, Kodi & Lily actually had a GREAT time! Next year, lets hope we get more to play!!


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Yeah, more local havanese! Kristin, you will be 20 minutes from my new house, considering you avoid rush hour. We can have a play date at my new house! 

Laurie, your play date can't come fast enough!


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