# Puppy Pyoderma?



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Has anyone had a puppy dx'd with this? Kodi has bumps all over his front legs, with smaller numbers in other places, sprinkled over his body. They don't appear to be itchy at all. When I took him to the vet, she said it was an "unusual presentation" of puppy pyoderma, and told me it was either a staff or strp infection in his skin. She put him on two weeks of antibiotics, (a long acting injection, as I am VERY allergic to the antibiotic she wanted him on) and said I should see a big improvement in 2-3 days. It has only been a little over 24 hours so far, so I guess it's too early to tell yet.

She said it should clear up completely, unless he has an underlying allergy that is causing him to scratch and allow infection to enter his skin. (he doesn't scratch, so hopefully this is a one-time thing!) I think we caught it pretty early; he has no fever, and doesn't seem sick at all. It certainly hasn't affected his appetite at all. I just don't like the idea of ANYTHING being wrong with my little guy!

I'd be interested in hearing any other experiences with it. When I looked it up on-line, I found things ranging from "it usually goes away on its own" to extremely alarming articles about it being potentially life threatening. ...IOW, not very helpful!<g>


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Karen, I am sorry you and Kodi have to go through this. Cash had something that sounds like that when he was younger...he had little red bumps on mostly his belly and on the inside of his ears. The doctor said it was a bacterial infection and we had to bath him twice a week with an antibacterial shampoo and also had an ointment/liquid to put on each spot a couple of times a day. It did clear up. he got it once again...but has not had anything like it for over a year. The other thing she said was very important was to blow dry him and not let him air dry even after a walk as that can allow bacteria grow. But she never named it Pyoderma so not sure if it is the same thing or not. 

I am glad Kodi does not seem uncomfortable. Oh and don't let Google scare you.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Karen,

I have never heard of anything like this before. Any yeah, I agree with you with the 2 different points of view on this. I'm assuming I looked at the same websites as you.. on one it says no big deal, and the next they make it seem horrible. What does Kodi's breeder think?

Ryan


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Hi Missy,

The vet did mention that if the systemic antibiotics weren't enough, she'd give me an antibacterial shampoo for him too. I wouldn't mind that, but putting ointment on him would be tough. His hair is already much longer than your guys, and the spots are ALL over him, even though they are thickest on his legs. The vet (jokingly, I THINK) said we'd have to shave him to find all the spots. Cross your fingers for me that we don't have to go that route!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Hi Ryan,

I haven't talked to the breeder, since I don't think this is a "Havanese thing" at all... in fact, it looks, from what I read on the internet, as if it's much more common in a few specific breeds... (Afghans - the scary article, Sharpeis, Boxers) not breeds with much in common with Havanese. I started out by calling a couple of friends of mine, one is a vet, though she mostly does large animals, and the other is married to a vet who is a board certified dermatologist. (she is checked with her husband for his thoughts, and if he thinks it's necessary for us to make the trip to have him or another dermatology specialist see Kodi) I ran the local vet's treatment plan past them.

The scary article said that it was critical to get the puppy on steroids as quickly as possible, which was what I wanted to check out. Both of the vets I talked to felt that if he seems to feel well, has no fever, and the spots aren't increasing in number (they aren't) that my local vet's more conservative approach makes sense. They both said that putting a puppy on steroids is a "big gun" approach if it's not absolutely necessary.

He got bitten by a tick just before he got all the bumps, and I thought the two might be related. The local vet said no, but my friend said that although the tick didn't GIVE him the disease, any break in the skin can be a route for the entry of infection, so it IS possible that the infection was the result of the bite. He's always got flea and tick preventative on him, but the ticks are vicious here right now. I've pulled them off the cat and my husband as well as Kodi in the last 3 days.

I'm rooting for the "it's no big deal" websites at the moment!<g>


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## Mraymo (Oct 30, 2007)

Sorry to hear that Kodi has a rash. I'm glad it doesn't seem to be affecting him much. Hopefully the antibiotics will take care of it. I haven't heard of it before.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Eek- I see what you mean about the websites- no big deal to it is a secondary symptom of immune disorder. I haven't heard of it before either so I hope it clears up right away with the antibiotics.

Hope with the cold the ticks go away. That is a battle I had to learn to fight this summer when we first moved to this house too.

Get better little Kodi man!


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

Bummer! Pyoderma is a secondary infection of the skin so generally starts with flea bites or scratching from allergies or something. It's not a Havanese genetic problem or anything like that but your breeder may have had experience with it before so maybe you want to share the information with him. It's a dog thing. Chinese Cresteds seem to get it, probably because they have a weaker immune system and being hairless exposes their skin to more. I haven't experienced it personally, but a friend of mine had it with her puppy and had her on Simplicef. She shared pictures and it does look pretty funky. It took two months to cure. Hopefully the abs will take care of it before you have to shave the dog down. :Cry:


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Karen, do not shave Kodi down! if it comes to ointment you bring him here and I will help you find those little spots through all that hair we'll have him treated in no time. I am hoping it clears up and problem solved. It has been so wet lately, that those wet paws are great places for bacteria to grow. Do have him checked in 6 months again for tick born if he was bit. My vet says there are so many tick borne diseases and reactions that don't even have a name yet. Would they consider a course of doxycicline as a propalactic just in case? may help with the rash too.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ama0722 said:


> Eek- I see what you mean about the websites- no big deal to it is a secondary symptom of immune disorder. I haven't heard of it before either so I hope it clears up right away with the antibiotics.
> 
> Hope with the cold the ticks go away. That is a battle I had to learn to fight this summer when we first moved to this house too.
> 
> Get better little Kodi man!


Thanks! The ticks are MISERABLE here right now... I think they all want one last feed before we get a hard frost. I pulled one off my husband the other day, and I've pulled 3 off the cat. (and she takes care of any she can reach by herself!)

I almost don't want to take Kodi off the pavement right now. (though he would HATE that!)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

good buddy said:


> Bummer! Pyoderma is a secondary infection of the skin so generally starts with flea bites or scratching from allergies or something. It's not a Havanese genetic problem or anything like that but your breeder may have had experience with it before so maybe you want to share the information with him. It's a dog thing. Chinese Cresteds seem to get it, probably because they have a weaker immune system and being hairless exposes their skin to more. I haven't experienced it personally, but a friend of mine had it with her puppy and had her on Simplicef. She shared pictures and it does look pretty funky. It took two months to cure. Hopefully the abs will take care of it before you have to shave the dog down. :Cry:


The weird thing is that as far as I know, except for the tick bite, he hasn't had any wounds of any sort. He doesn't have fleas, and he doesn't itch. The antibiotic Kodi is on is a cephalosporin too, so it sounds like my vet is treating it the same way as your friend's vet did.

I really think the vet was kidding about shaving him... we'd only do that as a last resort, and it has only been a few days so far. She was reluctant even to mention the antibiotic shampoo if the injection didn't work... she said lots of people HATE giving their dogs baths. I just looked at her and said, "Would I have bought a long haired, mostly white dog if I was afraid of baths?"<g>


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Missy said:


> Karen, do not shave Kodi down! if it comes to ointment you bring him here and I will help you find those little spots through all that hair we'll have him treated in no time. I am hoping it clears up and problem solved. It has been so wet lately, that those wet paws are great places for bacteria to grow. Do have him checked in 6 months again for tick born if he was bit. My vet says there are so many tick borne diseases and reactions that don't even have a name yet. Would they consider a course of doxycicline as a propalactic just in case? may help with the rash too.


We'd probably have to live with you for the duration if we wanted to get ointment on all those spots a couple of times a day.<g> And no worries... I wouldn't shave him except as a last resort!!!

I am concerned about the tick bite too... Lyme is So-o-o common around here. Fortunately, the bite is right in his groin, where I've been able to watch it carefully, and there has been no bulls-eye rash, and it can't have been on him for more than a few hours, because it is a very visible site when he's on his back. (a position he spends lots of time in!<g>) He also did get the Lyme vaccine, though I know that's not 100% either. I will definitely have them pull a titer in a few months and just check.

I don't think it's a good idea to double up on antibiotics, and cephalosporins are strong. So I'll have to see what she thinks about the idea/necessity of the doxy in 2 weeks. This has all put off getting him neutered too, as I really don't want to stress his body further when he's fighting off an infection.

...And he's definitely hit his "adolescent phase". It I tell him to sit or down, he gives me this little half-bark and then flings himself down, just like a whiney teenager. He BARKED at a repairman for the very first time today! The funniest thing is that the other day he lifted his leg to pee... but he wasn't against anything - he just did it in the middle of the yard. Yup, definitely time for that equipment to be jettisoned.<g>

The good news is that while the bumps aren't gone yet, there are no new ones, and the ones that are there are crusting over. So I'm crossing my fingers that the antibiotics are doing their job!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

We've never heard of it, much less seen it before. I wouldn't think it's an allergy. I'm guessing that it won't amount to much since you caught it so early. Interesting that it's only on his front legs. Is that typical of Pyoderma?

Of all the puppies we've produced, we've only heard of two with any kind of tick borne disease. Both were from Mass., whether or not that means anything. Both were diagnosed early and both cleared up with antibiotics.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

krandall said:


> We'd probably have to live with you for the duration if we wanted to get ointment on all those spots a couple of times a day.<g> And no worries... I wouldn't shave him except as a last resort!!!
> 
> I am concerned about the tick bite too... Lyme is So-o-o common around here. Fortunately, the bite is right in his groin, where I've been able to watch it carefully, and there has been *no bulls-eye rash*, and it can't have been on him for more than a few hours, because it is a very visible site when he's on his back. (a position he spends lots of time in!<g>) He also did get the Lyme vaccine, though I know that's not 100% either. I will definitely have them pull a titer in a few months and just check.
> 
> ...


Karen I just mentioned this to you in private but wanted to add it here for others as well. Dogs do not typically get the bull's-eye rash when they have lyme disease and a tick normally has to be engorged and attached for more than 24 hrs for the disease to transmit to the dog.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Hi Tom,

I don't think it's allergy caused either... he has shown no sign of any allergies, and he hasn't been scratching, either before OR after getting this. It's not only on his front legs, though it's definitely heaviest there. I think that's what made the vet say it's an "unusual presentation". My understanding is that it's typically seen mostly on the belly, and in areas where there's not much fur. He's only got a couple of spots on his belly. 

Both the regular vet and my dermatology friend (Katey's husband, BTW) said Pyoderma isn't "tick born", per se, but that it's more like cellulitis in people, in that it's an infection in the skin, and can gain entry through any break in the skin.(the vet asked if he'd been rough-housing with other puppies, but he hasn't been) Therefore, a tick breaking the skin could precipitate it, but the tick wasn't carrying the disease. 

My understanding is that it's either a staph or strep infection, both of which bacteria are common everywhere in the environment. The only way to tell for sure which one, is to do a biopsy and culture it. The culture process is lengthy, and since both usually respond to Cephalosporin, that's what they give them.

I'm not surprised that you've heard of troublesome tick-borne diseases in MA... we're rife with them. A huge percentage of dogs, horses and people test positive for Lyme, whether they've ever had symptoms or not. Almost all horses are vaccinated for Lyme in MA now, and it has cut down on the incidence of active disease dramatically. 

Fortunately, Kodi's bumps are crusting over now and no more are forming, so I do think the antibiotics are working!

Say "Hi" to Pam for me!

Karen


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Leeann said:


> Karen I just mentioned this to you in private but wanted to add it here for others as well. Dogs do not typically get the bull's-eye rash when they have lyme disease and a tick normally has to be engorged and attached for more than 24 hrs for the disease to transmit to the dog.


Thanks Leeann,

The good news is that the tick couldn't have been on him for more than about 12 hours tops. I groomed him in the morning, and would have seen it then. In the evening, when he was laying (upside down<g>) in my lap, I saw it and removed it. It was still tiny (I only saw it because of the angry, red localized reaction) so obviously hadn't been feeding long.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

great news Karen. I am glad Leeann mentioned that dogs don't get the bullseye rash. But with the vacine and such a short time on him I am sure Kodi is going to be fine. And it may not even be this pyoderma...could just be an infection and my bet is it will go away and never come back. 

But if you want to camp out here so we can find all those little bumps that would be fine with me!:wink:


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