# Sherman's at it again



## Sherman (Sep 20, 2006)

Hi everybody,
You all are so nice to answer my pleas for help. I thought we'd turned the corner on Sherman's potty issues, but this morning I found poop on a doormat in the kitchen. He's a year and a half old. Way too old for this to keep happening. All my cats have to eat their food up on tables or counters so he won't get it. I don't give him anything but dog food. He pooped outside three (3!) times yesterday. And still he went inside during the night.
I don't know what else to do. Leaving him in the kitchen at night doesn't do a thing because then he thinks he has been given permission to poop on the floor. (I guess!). 
Today I'm trying (1) taking him outside even more often and for sure, right before I go to bed. Then I'm going to try not to go to sleep. (2) I'm putting his food and water on the spot where he pooped. I'm going to watch him like a hawk for as long as I can and if I see him start to go, I'm going to shake a can of coins to stop him. At least all the episodes have been overnight.
If these measures don't produce results, I'm going to see what the vet says.
A neighbor who walks her dogs with me and Sherman is in love with him and wants to adopt him. But I don't want to give him away. I just want him to do his business outside! Is that too much to ask???????
Just talking to myself. No answers necessary!
Thanks, Carol


----------



## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Carol-----crate Sherman at night.Let him go out and potty late,before you go to bed,and then crate him.He stays in the crate till you get up to let him out.Then immediantly(no greeting)take him out to go potty.When he comes in,praise him,greet etc.This will help you.


----------



## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

Carol, 

Why don't you put him in a crate at night. I dog usually will not soil their den. House trainning a dog takes time and you can expect accidents. Sherman senses your frustration with him, and he's feeling your negitive energy. He needs to know you are the pack leader for him to follow your rules. A dog will not follow frustrated energy. Maybe you are more of a cat person than a dog person. There is nothing wrong with that. Maybe he would be better with the neighbor and that way you could still see him. I have three havanese, potty training was the most frustrating part of puppyhood, but once it's done it's over. But it has to be consistant trainning until they get it. I started training the boys the day I brought them home and they had accidents until they were 7-8 months old. Small dogs take alot longer, my lab was totally trained by 4 months of age.

My havs were doing really good, ringing the to go out by 6 months, with a few accidents after that and no more accidents after 8 monhts.


----------



## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I think Julie and Paige have excellent suggestions in regard to crating him at night. I think that will help you a lot.


----------



## havaluv (Oct 15, 2007)

Hi Carol,

I agree, crating at night would be a good solution for you. Also, it would be a good idea to feed him his last meal before 6:00 and then make sure he walks before bed so he is completely empty at night. Potty training can be really challenging with some dogs and even though it's hard to confine them, it can make everyone happier in the long run and make the process go more quickly. Some just seem to learn faster than others...who knows why? Try not to take other's quick successes as the rule...lots of people struggle with it for quite some time. (me included!) Good luck!


----------



## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Hi Carole, I agree with the crating. Tell us what you like about Sherman and what it is about his that makes you want to keep him. Maybe we can help you use his good traits to help you more successfully correct him. He sure is a cutie!!!


----------



## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Carol,
It's okay to vent here. We all want to help you. As far as the cat food thing goes, there is NO easy answer to that except exactly what you are doing, keeping it out of Sherman's reach. I have a house cat and her food and litter box are in our den. The french doors to the den remain closed at all times and a baby gate is used on the den door to the hallway. My cat, Cali, can get in and out over the baby gate as can I at feeding and litter cleaning time, but the dogs cannot get in. Sure, I'd love to have my den open but that's just not the way it is or will ever be in my house. I'm okay with it.
If you are like a lot of dog owners you might think that Sherman is misbehaving just to spite you but I don't believe dogs think that way. 
How often does Sherman eat? At a year and a half he should have fairly predictable times for bowel movements. When he does go potty outside do you throw a "potty party" for him? In other words, make a total fool out of yourself praising him? 
I agree with the value of the crate. Both of my dogs were crated until they were extremely reliably house trained. 
I sure hope this works out for you and for Sherman.


----------



## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Vent all you want Carol, that is why we are all here. I too say = get him in a Crate at night, and when you cannot be with him for a while. My guys sleep in their crates, and up until recently they were in crates until they were fully responsible, when we were at work. He may not be crate trained but it is easier than you think. check out housetraining for Dummies, they have some great tips. Keep your chin up, I am sure Sherman will get it soon!!


----------



## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

What do you use to clean the areas where he has his accidents? Are you useing something to neutralize the smell? If not try that because if they can smell it they will go there again at least that has been our experience.


----------



## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

How late are you feeding him? Don't feed him after 5 pm.
Perhaps the type of food makes him go more often? Have you tried a dry kibble?
Yes, you must deodorize the accident sites immediately with that stuff that neutralizes the odor. 
Yes, he must be crated at night, because they don't soil their bedding. 
Good luck, it's a challenge. I'm sorry!


----------



## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Carol,

You may remember that I've been having the same problem with Milo. He was driving me crazy by going in the house (and no longer on the pee pads). For more than a week he's been really good about going outside but he's had two accidents in the house, one unpredictably and the other I should have expected. It was raining a lot. However, I see progress and I'm delighted about that. He seems to be getting it -- at his own pace, as I suspect Sherman is. You say he's been better most of the time. That's great. It means he's getting there. He obviously needs more time. 

I agree with the praise him to the skies when he does it right and let him know you're not happy when he doesn't. One day it will click. I'm sure the group is right about crating, though I couldn't do it. Milo's been too long away from the crate. Luckily for me he sleeps in my bed and doesn't get down on his own. He never (poo poo poo) has made in the bed so that's not our issue.

By all means vent to us anytime. It is frustrating.


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I don't mean to discourage you, but there are people with Havs even older than Sherman that will still occasionally pee or poop on area rugs. I have a few friends in the local Hav playgroup and there dogs are over 2-3 years old and will occasionally have an 'accident', I really think you have to expect that with alot of toy dogs, especially if they get sick or are feeling under the weather, or if you go out of town for a few days, etc..changes in routine... But I would feel successful at even 95% potty trained..and although some Havs DO have complete success, other's will still slip up. It really depends on the dog, the relationship, training efforts, the dogs health/bladder size...so many things.

But I do agree that he can sense your frustration and that might be counter-productive, because he cannot distinguish the reason why you are upset/frustrated and they really do 'feed' off our feelings/emotions.

The crating might do the trick. Does he get anxious when he is alone in the kitchen? 

If it doesnt' work out, it sounds like you have the perfect solution with your neighbor that adores him!

Good luck!
Kara


----------



## Tritia (Nov 17, 2007)

Cooper is 1, and still sleeps in his crate. We actually let him try to sleep up on our bed last wk (with our other dog), but he got off about 20 mins into being there. Went into the bathroom, and laid outside his crate ound:
Sooo..he's back in there. 
I really thought Santa came early this yr, cause Cooper had pooped in the house in well over a month. I was JUST singing his praises when last night, 6 inches from me...there he goes :frusty:

I was playing ball with both of them, and I guess after being a coach potato all day yesterday, all the running just worked it out of him, lol. I was shocked, to say the least. He usually sneaks off to one of the kid's rooms and does it there. NEVER has he so boldly gone right in front of us. Guess when you gotta go..you gotta go


----------



## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

I agree with everyone regarding crating him at night. Brady is very good, we haven't had accidents in a long time, but I take him out a lot. He has bells and rings them to go outside. And, even though I know he is crying "woof" a lot and just wants to go out and play, I still take him out each time. I also take him for a 5 minute walk before bed so he has time to do his business. I understand the cat thing. Brady thinks my 2 cats are toys that run. Fortunatly, Brady will not go down our basement stairs so I keep the litter boxes and food down there. In my old house, I used a small table and kept the food on there. I really hope things get better for you. It is nice that your neighbor is willing to take him if things don't get better for you.


----------



## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Sorry for your frustrations. It must be so difficult for you. Have you tried putting a bell on his collar? I did that when my guys were young. It was great, because I could hear them get up at night and I always knew where they were. 

Is there any way he has separation issues. That can cause an older dog do have accidents. 

Crating him at night is a great suggestion. My guys were crated at night until they were reliable.

Also, If you feed him the raw diet, he will poop less!


----------



## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Crate training I believe is your ticket to success Carol.Do not get a big one either.Just a plastic travel crate from Walmart just the size he can go in and turn around.A bigger-then-he-needs one will be TROUBLE.Every time you can not keep 100%visual on him,he goes in the crate.At night?In the crate.He will never poop in his crate.To give you some insight- Quincy is 20 months old.....he slept in his crate at night till the last couple of months...when I was positive he could be free at night.There is no negatives to his very own crate.It will be like his own little private space.Quincy will still go in there.If I was leaving the house for any length of time,I'd crate Quincy.Not because of him peeing or pooping(though that could always be an issue)but because I do not want him to get into something--chew an electrical cord,bathroom garbage etc.He knows better then any of that,but sometimes it's still tempting.Think of a havanese like a chunky adult person.You want to lose weight,you know how and what to do,most of the time you are very good about eating healthy foods,but once in awhile--you still slip and eat a chocolate candy or ice cream.Havs are kinda like that.If you kinda think of Sherman like that.....does that help you put it into perspective?


----------



## Sherman (Sep 20, 2006)

Hi guys, thanks as usual. I had thought of crating him at night as a last straw, but he's a year and a half old and has never slept in a crate. He is very sensitive to criticism and change and I think it would traumatize him if all of a sudden I put him in a crate. He's used to sleeping anywhere he wants; usually he sleeps most of the night in my bed.
I do use Miracle whatever from Petsmart by the gallon. Last night he pooped on a rug, so I washed it and didn't put it back down. I'm going to put his food and water on the spot instead. I feed him canned food for dogs with sensitive stomachs from the vet in the morning. He has dry food and water available at all times, but I don't think he eats or drinks at night.
I think his basic problem is that his breeder didn't take him outside at all for 3 months before I got him. He peed and pooped on pads, or not. I think he still thinks it's all right.
I love Sherman because he's sweet, affectionate, cute and is a laugh a minute. He gets me out of the house and I made my first friend since I moved here 3 years ago because of him. I just couldn't give him away unless he was just eliminating indiscriminately. He has done everything outside today in a nasty freezing rain. It's only at night that he has problems. I'm going to take him outside for the last time when I go to bed and hope for the best. 
Thanks again,
Carol


----------



## Poornima (Jun 29, 2007)

There are a lot of wonderful suggestions here. We all support you. I hope things get better with Sherman. 

I noticed that feeding a mix of cooked vegetables and meat sprinked over the kibble created less poop with Benji and Lizzie. It has less odor too. I also notice that when Benji and Lizzie feel very cold they don't want to do their business even on the outdoor ex-pen piddle pad.

Housebreaking is one of the toughest issues to deal with. I hope you have success with Sherman soon.


----------



## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Carol,

I know you'll get through this, tough as it is right now. It sounds like he's really trying.


----------



## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Carole, I think if you could devote one whole week to Sherman, I know it's hard - who has a whole week?- but if you could clear most of your calendar for even a long weekend- But before this weekend - write a list, even if you think you know every time he goes. write a list and check it off-- and at all those times take him to the door and ask him-- "sherman do you wanta go out?" and ask him again until he perks up and shows you "yes I do want to go out?" Start expecting answers from him so you both have a way of communicating... and then take him out and tell him to "do his biz" and when he goes give him the best affection he could ever ask for. "Oh you are a good boy Sherman! good biz" and treat him. And do this every single time you take him out--- and party with him every time he does it right. And watch him like a hawk- and if squats- startle him with a "NO" and pick him up and take him out-- and tell him to do his biz---if he even pretends to do his biz outside--- it is party time. I think catching them in the act goes a long way with them- it's like a light bulb goes off--- In=Bad- Out =Party. 

Use his affection to make this work-- he wants to please you- you just may need to go over the top for a while to really illustrate to him what it is that pleases you. I know this may be hard after a year and a half-- But it will be worth it to reset the trust between you two.

The only Hav I had ever known before we got our boys was 4 years old and never house trained. I was so determined to make it work with our boys (I am allergic to all other breads) we built a potty room in our garage that they access through a doggy door. we trained them exclusively to use the room until they were 5 months and then started taking them out. Well Now, our boys would rather hold it than use the room- LOL - But in an emergency they will still go out there. Cash was harder to train than Jasper and we still don't trust him completely-- I think it is because he does not as outwardly communicate to us his needs... He is more subtle than Jassy (who comes over stares us down and then paws us and grumbles when he wants to go out) Cash just starts to look slightly nervous-- so we too are working on getting him to communicate-- if he is looking nervous we say "do you want to go out?" and when he head tilts and wiggles and jumps towards the door-- we let him out. 

I know in our busy lives it is really hard to devote that much time all at once- but if you don't want to crate him this is really the best way. I can see how much you love Sherman- So it really is an investment to a happier future for both of you. 

Good Luck Carole. keep us posted.


----------



## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Carol,
I really think you should crate train him at night. You can start by feeding him in his crate with the door open and little by little, day by day, you start closing the door and leave him in their for a longer time each day. I don't think that this will traumatize him. Sherman will eventually see his crate as a place to have peace and be safe.
Also, why does he have access to his kibble at all times? You would be easier on top of his pooping habits if he ate 2x/d like most adult dogs.
From what it sounds, you're trying to be nice to him and give him the freedom you think he needs, but he just might not need all that to feel comfortable. 
Just some thoughts...
I've had Pablo for 3.5 weeks and at the beginning I felt guilty for leaving him in his ex-pen even though I was in the same room. But after a while it just got too chaotic and I didn't understand why he would still 'get on my nerves' even though I was so nice to him and tried to let him follow me every where. I gave up my entire life for those 2 weeks and it didn't seem to make him feel better at all. So I asked my breeder for a description of her daily routine with the pups and realized it was OK to leave him in the ex-pen.
And guess what: he's MUCH happier now and so am I. I got my life back and Pablo is much more relaxed cause he knows the world doesn't stop if he can't follow me everywhere and he enjoys taking naps as he pleases. I was making the poor guy nervous by having him run from one room to the other with me with constant corrections.
Sorry it got so long, but I'm just trying to tell you that if we can see and treat them as DOGS we can all have a happy life together. And putting a dog in a crate over night is not the same as putting a child in a box. Hang in there!!!


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

quote: "He has dry food and water available at all times, but I don't think he eats or drinks at night."

After they are around 6 months old, they no longer need free choice food. Actually, we start our puppies on 3 meals a day when they are about 10 weeks old and cut back to 2 when they are not really interested in eating in the middle of the day. At a year and a half, he will make it just fine with 2 meals a day. This may be a possible reason for the multiple poops a day. Ours just go a little while after they eat and first thing in the morning.

All ours sleep in crates, since we ran out of corners on our bed. They all like their crates and are ready to get in when it's bedtime. The ones on the bottom row about 18" off the floor even jump in as soon as their door is open.

You may have to start out with him in your bedroom as no doubt he will feel uneasy if he's shut up somewhere off by himself. He may or may not fuss to start with but you have to be firm and patient and not offer any sympathy. The old "calm and assertive". You don't have to be mean. Just a firm, "Lay down and go to sleep." The period at the end of the sentence needs to be emphasized but not an exclamation point. No baby talk.

Good luck,


----------



## Cheryl (Mar 17, 2007)

I agree with Tom. The crate is not a punishment, but a safe plae to spend the night. You can start with the crate on the level of your bed and right next to it. Pick one night where you can afford to miss a little sleep. I bet it will only take one or two nights for him to get used to this new arrangement.

We are pulling for you and Sherman. We want this to work for you. Please keep us posted.


----------



## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Carol,
I'm glad to hear the wonderful things about Sherman. 
Crate training isn't terribly hard. There are some great articles on it. Until he's totally trained (and they certainly can be) don't let him have free reign in your house. I'd pick up his food (and even water in the winter time) by 7:00 PM just to be sure he isn't nibbling late at night and then needing to go potty. Adult dogs don't need food available 24 hours per day and if you regulate when he eats you'll be better able to get a handle on his potty schedule. This may be a dumb question since I don't know the setup of your yard or house but perhaps a doggie door might work for you?
Good luck. We are your cheering section.
Can we see more photos of Sherman??


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Sherman said:


> Hi guys, thanks as usual. I had thought of crating him at night as a last straw, but he's a year and a half old and has never slept in a crate. He is very sensitive to criticism and change and I think it would traumatize him if all of a sudden I put him in a crate. He's used to sleeping anywhere he wants; usually he sleeps most of the night in my bed.
> I do use Miracle whatever from Petsmart by the gallon. Last night he pooped on a rug, so I washed it and didn't put it back down. I'm going to put his food and water on the spot instead. I feed him canned food for dogs with sensitive stomachs from the vet in the morning. He has dry food and water available at all times, but I don't think he eats or drinks at night.
> I think his basic problem is that his breeder didn't take him outside at all for 3 months before I got him. He peed and pooped on pads, or not. I think he still thinks it's all right.
> I love Sherman because he's sweet, affectionate, cute and is a laugh a minute. He gets me out of the house and I made my first friend since I moved here 3 years ago because of him. I just couldn't give him away unless he was just eliminating indiscriminately. He has done everything outside today in a nasty freezing rain. It's only at night that he has problems. I'm going to take him outside for the last time when I go to bed and hope for the best.
> ...


Carol,

It sounds like you really love Sherman and he's a great companion that has enriched your life, just put it in the perspective that he occasionally makes a mistake!

I am SOOO impressed that he _" has done everything outside in the nasty freezing rain"._..that's a HUGE accomplishment! It is like WW3 trying to get my dog on WET GRASS, much less torrential rain! You are already to 3rd base!

I think dogs, like any human...are occasionally prone to mistakes, we all have 'off' days, I joke around that I am going to start pinning notes to my shirt to remember things! The other day, I went to Home Depot with a giftcard to get lightbulbs, not only did I *leave* Home Depot without any lightbulbs, I forgot to use my giftcard! :brick:ound: It happens.

You may be able to fix this with scheduled feedings and not the crate, although..I'd keep the crate option open. I'd start w/ 3 feedings a day and progress to 2. I usually feed around 7am and 4-5 pm, and yes..sometimes, she won't eat, but if she skips a meal or two, she'll gobble up the next and want more.

Keep in mind that even if you do crate, that's no guarantee they won't poop in the crate (you will still have to watch closely and take him out if he fusses), that happens to some people, especially if their Havs get really anxious/scared in the crate. I have a friend dealing with that now. He won't poop in the crate except he does it everytime she leaves the house for an errand during the day, even if it is only for 10 min. she always comes home to a poopy-crate, and she thinks it is more Sep/Anxiety related than actually needing to go, he's a bit younger than Sherman though.

We all have to find the solution that works best for US and our situations...but keep our minds open to trying new things. I wish you the best of luck! And I'm glad to hear not only has Sherman brought you laughter and love...he's brought you friendship! :kiss: that's awesome!

Kara


----------



## Lola (Mar 22, 2007)

I agree with Missy. Start training over from the beginning. Reintroduce the crate for short periods of time during the day. Gradually incresing the time spent in it. Make it very comfortable for him with washable soft bedding. Keep the crate in your room at night for a while until he is used to it. Also as others have said, food and water during training time should not be available at all times. When they are trained fresh water should be available. But during training food should be scheduled and frequent water breaks should be taken. Remember what goes in must come out. Take outside frequently. A regular schedule is very important during training. Crating is a wonderful tool for training since most dogs will not soil their dens.


----------



## JanB (Oct 26, 2007)

I have to agree with the crate at night. We put Tessa's crate on a chaise lounge right beside our bed. For the first few nights she whined a little bit so I gently shushed her (no baby talk, but not harsh either, just like Tom said)and put my fingers through the slats. I also use a wire crate so it has a more "open" feel and she could see out all sides. After a week we moved the chaise across the room; she can still see us. No crate on the floor.

I also give her a very small piece of home-cooked chicken liver when I put her in for the night. She only gets this when it's crate time and she loves it.

Even if he isn't used to it I think there are ways to make it easier. I just wouldn't put him in a crate by himself in another room and expect him to like it. And free reign in a room before a dog is totally trustworthy will lead to "accidents".

She won't tolerate the crate during the day...I tether her to me as I move about the house, unless she's JUST gone out, then she has "free" time. She's fine now at night and goes right to sleep. A couple times she willingly went into her crate with no enticement.

I also don't allow solid food after 6 or 7 PM. Even a nibble which you may not even notice gone, can cause the urge to go.

Good luck!


----------

