# Potty and Crate Questions



## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

I have started taking Zumba outside to go potty. I am not sure how to do this right, and have gotten conflicting info from the 'net. If she doesn't go when I take her outside, do I just put her back in the ex-pen, or do I put her in her crate to wait out the 15- 30 minutes before I try again? 

The Florida sun has been brutal. I had her outside ex-pen in the sun, where she did her business every time when I'd put her there, but could not take her to that spot between 10am - 3:00pm because of the sun. I moved the ex-pen to the area to a shady area under a tree but she would NOT go in that area whatsoever. After trying for a whole day, I moved the ex-pen back over to the sunny spot and instant success! But that puts me back to the dilemma of how do people potty train their dogs in an unbearably hot climate? All I could come up with is an umbrella to cover both Zumba and me from the sun. Is that my only resort? Or accept that it will be outside when the weather is tolerable, and inside when it is too hot, the opposite of what some people do in colder or wetter climates?

Yesterday I was gone for a couple of minutes short of 3 hours and came back to a stressed Zumba. There were still people in the house - - my husband, my mom and a caretaker, and I know the caretaker and mom hang out in the kitchen, where they see Zumba, but I don't think they go in to pet her, but Zumba can definitely still hear there are people nearby and should be able to see them if she goes into the crate part of the set-up. They're just not me. She's fine with me leaving for awhile but she is used to seeing me at least every 1/2 hour, if nothing else for a "hello" and a rub. Though these last couple of weeks, I've been working with her, so we usually end up doing 5 - 10 minutes of some kind of training and fun before I go do something else for awhile. I was wondering if she would have been happier if I had crated her instead of leaving the crate open and with access to her ex-pen area? She is now almost 14 weeks old.

Thank you so much for your insights!


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## HavaCoco (Aug 31, 2018)

We are working on this too, so by no means an expert. Have you tried moving some equine pine pellets and the “used” saw dust from her puppy pan to the spot where you want her to go? That may help signal to her that this is where she does her business. 

Also when you are home does she still have access to her indoor potty options? This was something I was unsure of, whether to take it temporarily away while we work on going outside.


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

If you are using the crate to potty train then you do put them back in the crate if they have not pottied outside. Then you try again in a little while. Once they potty outside they get supervised freedom in the house. Eventually, after having no potty accidents inside, the outside the crate time gets longer and longer and you have a fully potty trained dog! I found that my puppy had her potty accidents in her expen when she had them - never in the crate. Of course if you have an indoor option in your expen set up that changes things.

I also wanted to add that my dog is always taken out on a leash to potty and given a potty command. This way I can be sure she has gone, which is helpful during potty training. Also, then you would not have to worry about the hot sun or weather as you are coming right back in the house after pottying.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jeanniek said:


> I have started taking Zumba outside to go potty. I am not sure how to do this right, and have gotten conflicting info from the 'net. If she doesn't go when I take her outside, do I just put her back in the ex-pen, or do I put her in her crate to wait out the 15- 30 minutes before I try again?
> 
> The Florida sun has been brutal. I had her outside ex-pen in the sun, where she did her business every time when I'd put her there, but could not take her to that spot between 10am - 3:00pm because of the sun. I moved the ex-pen to the area to a shady area under a tree but she would NOT go in that area whatsoever. After trying for a whole day, I moved the ex-pen back over to the sunny spot and instant success! But that puts me back to the dilemma of how do people potty train their dogs in an unbearably hot climate? All I could come up with is an umbrella to cover both Zumba and me from the sun. Is that my only resort? Or accept that it will be outside when the weather is tolerable, and inside when it is too hot, the opposite of what some people do in colder or wetter climates?
> 
> ...


I think people get very confused when reading internet "potty training strategies" and working with an already litter box trained puppy. For some reason, they look on the use of the litter box as "not training" and going outside as "training". Think of it this way instead. Every time your puppy pees or poops where they are supposed to (inside or out) they have been successful in developing the proper habit. Every time they pee or poop in an inappropriate place, YOU have let them begin to start the WRONG habit.

I GUARANTEE you, that if you do NO "outdoor training" at all, and simply take your puppy outdoors on a regular basis for walks and play, that by a year old, you will have to start heavily reinforcing the litter box if it is important to you to keep that as an option. (it is to me, it's not to everyone, though I can't tell you the number of people who later wish that their dogs would still use the litter box for one reason or another)

Dogs almost always prefer to potty outdoors once they understand it and are given the opportunity. Even my dogs, who are all willing to use the litter boxes in a pinch, almost always choose the outdoor option if they have a choice. The only time they don't prefer outdoors is in a driving rain or if the snow is too deep for them to get through. Even then, they will ASK to go out, I open the door, they sigh, turn away and use the litter box instead. 

So, if you want to offer her an outdoor opportunity periodically during the day, it sure won't hurt. But I would CERTAINLY not confine a puppy who was reliably clean in her pen and using her litter box appropriately, to a crate when she didn't potty, just to make sure she didn't use the litter box. What would be the purpose of that? Using the litter box is not a wrong choice.

In the meantime, you need to think about whether, long-term, you want to maintain litter box behavior or let it go. If you want to fade it, simply stop rewarding it, but make it available for those times that you miss the signal (or timing) to get her outside, and she needs it as a back-up for human failure. Eventually, without your encouragement and reinforcement, she WILL stop using it, and you can just decide to put it away. And in the meantime, she will have learned to go outdoors with very little effort on your part. BECAUSE... she has learned where NOT to potty. And isn't THAT really what you want to accomplish?

As far as her upset when you were gone, I think you just needs to slowly work up to separations. ...And if she is strongly bonded to you, it may not matter whether there are "other people in the house". I have found with my three that the girls have developed much stronger "one person" bonds than Kodi ever has. Kodi loves everyone. He is MOSTLY strongly bonded to Dave and me, but I really think he is equally happy with either one of us. And you can leave him anywhere, with anybody, and he happily fits in there. Not that he's not THRILLED when we return, but I am fully convinced that if Dave and I died in a plane crash tomorrow, Kodi would quickly adapt to ANY new home where someone loved him.

The girls are different. When I'm away overnight, Panda visibly pines. To the extent that Dave lets her sleep in bed with him. The "dog hater".  Pixel is SOOOO sad when Dave is away (outside normal work hours) She loves me too, and loves to train with me, but she is, as we say, "The Daddy Dog". 

So, especially with the girls, but with all three of them, we are very conscious of making sure they ALL experience being left home alone, left home with one other dog (also going out with just one or the other of us). But it's a process. It doesn't happen overnight, and something you have to always be conscious of and work on. As far as "where", I think, over time, you'll have to play with that, and decide where she is most comfortable. When Dave's not home overnight, Pixel is happiest in her cozy crate with her favorite stuffed animal. When I'm not home overnight, Panda is comforted by the closeness of being in bed with Dave. (she normally sleeps in a crate too) ALL our dogs (now that they are adults and potty training isn't an issue) are gated in my office together when we aren't home. Before they were potty trained, they were in an ex-pen with either a crate or a fluffy bed, water bottle and litter pan. But I also know many people whose dogs are definitely more comfortable crated when they are out of the house. Play around with it, and figure out what works best for her.


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## Sam I Am (Aug 26, 2018)

At our house we were getting cocky about our progress, no accidents for days, then a couple of pees in one day, disappointing. Abby gets run of the house immediately after doing business, which she loves. Her accidents are always in the living room where her pen, & pad are, but she never uses the pad, except at night & hasn’t used it at all for a couple of weeks, going 8 hours at night. We have kept her in the pen with crate at night from day one, with little to no crying or whining. Mainly because the pad was there for her to use, so people could get some well deserved sleep, lol. She hasn’t been stressed to be there for 2-3 hours when we go out either, but maybe because Jesse (our mini aussie) is here, Abby’s idol. If I leave the room when she’s sleeping in the pen, she’s always alertly watching for me when I return. I always get a chuckle out of her expression when she see’s me. She is becoming much sweeter as she gains confidence & knowledge about her world.

She has to be careful not to cross the line with Jesse who is the keeper of the gate. Abby hits the ground fast if Jesse warns her. It reminds me of our foals who would be all full of themselves, until one of the older horses said ‘you aren’t doing that’, at which point the foal would do this baby mouth action, meaning don’t hurt me, I’m just a baby. Abby will show caution but will still bait Jesse with toys or treats, trying to get a reaction. She just turned 16 weeks. We have had her 7 weeks. We will all get through this, because after all, aren’t we the superior species?!


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

krandall said:


> I think people get very confused when reading internet "potty training strategies" and working with an already litter box trained puppy. For some reason, they look on the use of the litter box as "not training" and going outside as "training". Think of it this way instead. Every time your puppy pees or poops where they are supposed to (inside or out) they have been successful in developing the proper habit. Every time they pee or poop in an inappropriate place, YOU have let them begin to start the WRONG habit.
> 
> I GUARANTEE you, that if you do NO "outdoor training" at all, and simply take your puppy outdoors on a regular basis for walks and play, that by a year old, you will have to start heavily reinforcing the litter box if it is important to you to keep that as an option. (it is to me, it's not to everyone, though I can't tell you the number of people who later wish that their dogs would still use the litter box for one reason or another)
> 
> ...


You always have such common-sense insights! Thank you so much! I figuratively smacked myself in the head and thought - of course what I really care about is where I don't want her to go! I was stuck in that I was potty training her to go outside that I forgot going in the litter box is still acceptable.


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

Sam I Am said:


> We will all get through this, because after all, aren't we the superior species?!


Hahaha! At least, we find comfort in thinking that.:smile2:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jeanniek said:


> You always have such common-sense insights! Thank you so much! I figuratively smacked myself in the head and thought - of course what I really care about is where I don't want her to go! I was stuck in that I was potty training her to go outside that I forgot going in the litter box is still acceptable.


Well, I've been doing it for a while now... and I learned about litter boxes and potty training from the best!


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## chocohavapup (Apr 18, 2019)

Sam I Am said:


> At our house we were getting cocky about our progress, no accidents for days, then a couple of pees in one day, disappointing. Abby gets run of the house immediately after doing business, which she loves. Her accidents are always in the living room where her pen, & pad are, but she never uses the pad, except at night & hasn't used it at all for a couple of weeks, going 8 hours at night. We have kept her in the pen with crate at night from day one, with little to no crying or whining. Mainly because the pad was there for her to use, so people could get some well deserved sleep, lol. She hasn't been stressed to be there for 2-3 hours when we go out either, but maybe because Jesse (our mini aussie) is here, Abby's idol. If I leave the room when she's sleeping in the pen, she's always alertly watching for me when I return. I always get a chuckle out of her expression when she see's me. She is becoming much sweeter as she gains confidence & knowledge about her world.
> 
> She has to be careful not to cross the line with Jesse who is the keeper of the gate. Abby hits the ground fast if Jesse warns her. It reminds me of our foals who would be all full of themselves, until one of the older horses said 'you aren't doing that', at which point the foal would do this baby mouth action, meaning don't hurt me, I'm just a baby. Abby will show caution but will still bait Jesse with toys or treats, trying to get a reaction. She just turned 16 weeks. We have had her 7 weeks. We will all get through this, because after all, aren't we the superior species?!


I'm so confused!! Still doing my reading, but trying to catch my bearings. So with a puppy, their main living area used is their expen w/ some sort of indoor potty option. You take them outside as you can for them to learn to eliminate outdoors. And if they go to the bathroom then you let them run around outside of the pen? And if they don't then they go back in the pen? Where does the crate come into play? I only had plans to use a crate!


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

chocohavapup said:


> I'm so confused!! Still doing my reading, but trying to catch my bearings. So with a puppy, their main living area used is their expen w/ some sort of indoor potty option. You take them outside as you can for them to learn to eliminate outdoors. And if they go to the bathroom then you let them run around outside of the pen? And if they don't then they go back in the pen? Where does the crate come into play? I only had plans to use a crate!


I only used a crate to house train so by no means do you have to have an indoor potty option. The dog does go back in the crate if they have not gone potty and you try again in a little while. When they do potty outside you can give them supervised freedom but you must have eyes on them at all times. I also used an expen when I wanted my puppy to have a little more freedom but knew I could not watch her every minute, like when I was cooking dinner. Eventually the time in the crate becomes less and less and the area of freedom becomes more and more. Just make sure not to give too much freedom too soon as that is a mistake many new puppy owners make.


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## chocohavapup (Apr 18, 2019)

Molly120213 said:


> I only used a crate to house train so by no means do you have to have an indoor potty option. The dog does go back in the crate if they have not gone potty and you try again in a little while. When they do potty outside you can give them supervised freedom but you must have eyes on them at all times. I also used an expen when I wanted my puppy to have a little more freedom but knew I could not watch her every minute, like when I was cooking dinner. Eventually the time in the crate becomes less and less and the area of freedom becomes more and more. Just make sure not to give too much freedom too soon as that is a mistake many new puppy owners make.


Thanks again, Molly! Could you break it down for me just a little more? If we're taking her out every one to two hours to potty, and she can stay out a little bit if she does in fact go potty, when does she go back into the crate after that supervised freedom in order to start over again?


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

Puppies may need to go potty every time they change activities. That means when they wake up, after playtime or after eating or drinking. If you have had the puppy out of the crate for awhile for playtime or mealtime I would take them outside again and then return to the crate for awhile. Then start all over again after an hour or two in the crate. If they are not having accidents you can start increasing the amount of time between potty trips outside. Any time you start having accidents you need to figure out what went wrong and readjust the schedule. Sometimes that means going back to the beginning and tightening the restrictions or decreasing the freedom area. I hope this helps a little.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

chocohavapup said:


> I'm so confused!! Still doing my reading, but trying to catch my bearings. So with a puppy, their main living area used is their expen w/ some sort of indoor potty option. You take them outside as you can for them to learn to eliminate outdoors. And if they go to the bathroom then you let them run around outside of the pen? And if they don't then they go back in the pen? Where does the crate come into play? I only had plans to use a crate!


Go back and read Kendrall's explanation on potty training. And ... Check out other threads regarding the ex-pen.

But to briefly recap: You first focus on indoor potty training. Don't worry about taking your puppy outside to do their job ...* IF you want your dog to use the indoor potty tray when they are older when there is bad weather or you're not home to let them out.* Take your puppy outside to play and walk on a leash. There's no reward if they eliminate outdoors. After they're indoor house broken and they are around a one year old they'll naturally wait to go outside...unless there is bad weather or you're not home. Then they'll use the indoor potty tray.

Training a dog where they to properly eliminate indoors is a housebroken dog.

You DO NOT use the crate or ex-pen as punishment for NOT eliminating outdoors. They should love their ex-pen and crate. The ex-pen has a fluffy bed, water, where they eat, toys and a potty tray. Dogs are easily house broken if you use the ex-pen in the correct way. Lots of info on ex-pens set ups on this web site. Check them out.


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

My advice to this poster was advising her on outdoor potty training questions. Many of us do not use indoor potty options. Crates are an effective way to potty train a puppy and using the crate is not a punishment. It is a useful tool to teach them to potty outside because dogs do not want to potty where they sleep. It helps them learn to go longer between potty breaks and to become a potty trained dog who can have freedom in the house. My Havanese, and my Bichon before her, were successfully potty trained this way and they do not consider the crate as a place of punishment. It is their den or safe space and my adult dog goes in there many times during the day on her own to nap or chew on a toy or whatever. This is just another option that people can use and I must disagree with you because this way of using a crate is not done so as punishment.


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## Turnberry (Apr 17, 2019)

Some great advice here! Question: Is a "litter box" the same thing you'd use for a cat, with cat litter in it? I bought puppy pee pads and thought I'd use those. Which is better long-term?


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

Turnberry said:


> Some great advice here! Question: Is a "litter box" the same thing you'd use for a cat, with cat litter in it? I bought puppy pee pads and thought I'd use those. Which is better long-term?


If you want some great info about litter boxes I would private message Tom King. They use litter boxes with all of their puppies they breed and would be a great person to ask. As far as pee pads go, a lot of puppies shred them so I think having the pad in a holder would help with that.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Turnberry said:


> Some great advice here! Question: Is a "litter box" the same thing you'd use for a cat, with cat litter in it? I bought puppy pee pads and thought I'd use those. Which is better long-term?


You can use pads, I just didn't like them. I think there's a reason you aren't supposed to use cat litter. I used the pine equine pellets recommended here on the forum because they are much cheaper. I read other places that people have used kitty litter boxes but a lot of the trays that hold the potty pads can hold pine pellets and they are lower profile than a real litter box. I have two, one that's more like a litter box with higher walls and one thats about an inch tall, Ugodog brand, and I like the flat one better because it's more inconspicuous.

Containment is really the important part I think, whether you go with crate training or the ex pen set up. Most people I know personally with very well trained dogs crate trained, so we started out crate training. Then we were confused about whether or not the crate was related to our puppy's separation anxiety, so we decided not to worry about the crate and got creative with how we implemented the confinement. The book I followed was based on crate training so I just kept following it, in my mind replacing "crate" with "bed and ex-pen." I added indoor potty later, but he had been introduced to paper training by the breeder so I was lucky and he caught on. I have assumed that most people using potty trays use the ex-pen, crate, and potty tray set up, but as I'm thinking about it I don't see why you couldn't crate train and also use a potty tray - wouldn't it just be a matter of taking the puppy to the potty tray instead of outside? I'm curious if anyone has done it that way and if that would work!


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Turnberry said:


> Some great advice here! Question: Is a "litter box" the same thing you'd use for a cat, with cat litter in it? I bought puppy pee pads and thought I'd use those. Which is better long-term?


Tom King uses a litter box like a cat uses and puts Equine Horse Pellets inside the box. His puppies start using the litter box when they're about 4 weeks old. From pictures it looks like Tom has his litter boxes on a screened in porch where his puppies and dog go to use it. His dogs also potty outside, as well as, being indoor housebroken.

Several of us on this forum have indoor house broken our dogs and use Equine Horse Pellets instead of puppy pee pads inside potty trays that have grates on top. The grates keep the paws of the puppies and adult dogs clean when they use it. If you use an open litter box the dogs pick up saw dust and equine pellets on their paws, carrying some of it out of the box onto the floor. It depends on your situation on which method you use.

I've used about everything. Artificial grass, pee pads, Equine Horse Pellets along with four different potty trays. The artificial grass smells, as well as, the pee pads. That why I and others like the Equine Horse Pellets. There is no odor. When the dog pees on the pellets they expand and turn into a clump of saw dust. You, also, don't have to change it out as often as pee pads. I've, also, used Equine Horse Shavings when I couldn't find the pellets.

I keep pee pads handy and sometime use them in a pinch. When I use pee pads, I use them inside potty trays and have never just laid them on the floor. Some people do this. I'm sure my little one would have played with it and torn it up. If you put the pee pad inside the trays, the dogs can't get to it.

There are potty trays such as Richell Trax Mesh Tray, Ugo Dog, Byliss Pets Klean Paws plus others. I have all these and they work, however, Ugo Dog and Byliss Pet's Kean paws work the best with the Horse Equine Pellets.

Here are the links two the trays on Amazon. You have to order direct from UgoDog. It is a larger tray than Byliss. Depends on the size you need. Hope this helps.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00TTD93LQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/Richell-Trax-Mesh-Training-Brown/dp/B00MGTQSA4/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=trax+pad&qid=1555710905&s=pet-supplies&sr=1-3


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## Turnberry (Apr 17, 2019)

Such great advice! I have only been a forum member one day and already I LOVE it and everyone's willingness to help us newbies.


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## wencit (Jul 15, 2018)

*Mikki*, did your dog switch easily from one grated potty system to another? I bought the Richell Paw Trax tray, and although it works with the pine pellets, it's not perfect. I think the Blyss would be better because I can snap the grate over the pellets, rather than down into the tray like the Richell. Unfortunately, I didn't know about the Blyss when I bought the Richell. My puppy is starting to do well indoor potty training with the Richell, and I'm afraid if I switch to the Blyss, he'll regress.

I'm just wondering how easy (or not) it is to switch from one grated system to another.


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## HavaCoco (Aug 31, 2018)

I have the Richell tray in her expen and a PuppyGoHere litter tray in a room that we have fenced off for our pup. We had equine pine pellets in both. She started off using both equally and was very good about it. We only had less than 8-10 accidents since bringing her home. Now that she is older she either goes outside or the litter tray. I think she sees her Richell tray in her expen as an extension of her living space and does not want to soil it. Sometimes we catch her sleeping on the grates of the tray (which are clean!)

I have been thinking about removing the tray from the expen, but i feel like it's a nice option for her if we are out of the house and she really needs to go.

Here is a link to the PuppyGoHere

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00G7RMCHO/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_t7OUCbZQ15CSA


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

wencit said:


> *Mikki*, did your dog switch easily from one grated potty system to another? I bought the Richell Paw Trax tray, and although it works with the pine pellets, it's not perfect. I think the Blyss would be better because I can snap the grate over the pellets, rather than down into the tray like the Richell. Unfortunately, I didn't know about the Blyss when I bought the Richell. My puppy is starting to do well indoor potty training with the Richell, and I'm afraid if I switch to the Blyss, he'll regress.
> 
> I'm just wondering how easy (or not) it is to switch from one grated system to another.


Mine didn't have any trouble using different brands. Maybe it's the smell of the pine pellets once he learned with the first tray?


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## wencit (Jul 15, 2018)

We did start out with the PuppyGoHere trays, and he was doing fabulously with them, but then being a puppy and all, he would try to eat the pellets. So we switched to the Richell system, and there was some regression, which is the reason for my hesitation to switch. It could be he regressed because I didn't know what I was doing and couldn't tell if he was sniffing to pee or because he is a dog. I'm better at reading his signs now, though. Maybe I'll just cross my fingers and make the switch!

Virginia, my puppy likes to lie down on his Richell tray, too!


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

wencit said:


> *Mikki*, did your dog switch easily from one grated potty system to another? I bought the Richell Paw Trax tray, and although it works with the pine pellets, it's not perfect. I think the Blyss would be better because I can snap the grate over the pellets, rather than down into the tray like the Richell. Unfortunately, I didn't know about the Blyss when I bought the Richell. My puppy is starting to do well indoor potty training with the Richell, and I'm afraid if I switch to the Blyss, he'll regress.
> 
> I'm just wondering how easy (or not) it is to switch from one grated system to another.


Ha!! I, too, worried every time I changed something.

Patti never had a problem switching from artificial turf, to the Richell Paw Trax with pee pads to Byliss and UgoDog using Equine Pellets or Shavings. I always rubbed some of her pee on the new grate or system. Maybe that helped. Patti was still using an ex-pen during all these changes of trays.

Around 5-6 months, I started transitioning and put a potty tray in different areas of the house and showed her where these were located. Around 10-months I took down the ex-pen and gates in other rooms, and gave her free range to most of the house.

I really like the Byliss tray. It snaps down on the edges and is deep enough for the pellets. UgoDog's grate fits inside the tray and doesn't snap down. Byliss is half the size of UgoDog but I've found the Byliss works even though Patti is full grown and weighs about 13-14lbs. I use both UgoDog and Byliss because I happen to own both.

Using an ex-pen and doing* indoor house breaking *with potty trays was very easy and quick. Patti was basically housebroken by 3-months to one room. The ex-pen door opened into a family-kitchen area where there was a lot of activity. I gated off the second entrance to this room, which confined her to the room when the ex-pen the door was opened. The flooring was tile. I had very few potty accidents in the house.

When we were busy and didn't have eyes on her or left the area, Patti was confined to the ex-pen where she had a blanket, water, food, toys and the potty tray. At 5-months we moved to a summer condo where we set up an ex-pen with a potty tray. She had no problem transitioning to another location using the potty tray.

Although, I had read about indoor house breaking a dog, I was reluctant to do it. At first I tried outdoor house breaking but it was exhausting. I had the ex-pen and potty tray set up and *Patti was housebreaking herself indoors.* So, I focused on indoor house breaking and love it! We have a condo in the mountains with no yard. She uses the indoor potty trays and we don't have to rush to take her out for a walk in the mornings or worry if we leave for the afternoon or day. During storming, cold, rainy or snowy days I don't have a problem.

We fenced our yard about two-months ago. Patti now asks to go outside and does most of her business outdoors. But, still uses the potty trays once in a while, which are located under a desk in an office and one in a bathroom.

My understanding is indoor house breaking needs to be done at the get-go when the dogs are young puppies. Kendrall encouraged me to NOT switch to out door housebreaking until the dog is fully trained to the indoor system. ALL dogs prefer to go outside and will naturally do it later. Dogs trained to go outside, do not transition to an indoor house potty system.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

*Crate Training* I had an ex-pen in the main part of the house so Patti was with everyone. At night she slept in our bedroom in a crate until about 6 months. For the most part she slept through the night but sometimes got up around 3 a.m. I took her to the ex-pen to "do her job" and returned her to the crate where she slept until morning.

If I did this again I would do the night crate differently. My crate was big enough I could have placed her bed on one side and a potty pad on the other half. That way she most likely would have gotten up and peed on the pad, NOT waking me up.

Patti had never eliminated in her crate and I was concerned if I put a potty pad in the crate, she might decide it was OK to potty in the crate. Sounds crazy as I write this.

Patti figured out if she barked I would come and take her out of the crate to pee. Being a little Smart @ss >, she began waking me up every few hours with a little Awf!! I wanted to ignore her but was concerned she might eliminate in the crate if I didn't take her out to pee.

I was an exhausted puppy mom, so I decided to put her in our bed. She slept through the whole night and never went back to crate sleeping. We're all happy with this arrangement. Most of the night Patti sleeps in our closet behind clothes. As the night progresses she gets on the bed or sleeps on the floor. She gets hot, I think.

Don't exactly know the Moral to that Story ... Or, if potty pads in crates work or not.


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## chocohavapup (Apr 18, 2019)

Mikki said:


> I was an exhausted puppy mom, so I decided to put her in our bed. She slept through the whole night and never went back to crate sleeping. We're all happy with this arrangement.


We hope to get there one day!! Our old lady maltipoo Daisy has reign of the bed right now, so we want to wait about a year before we let the puppy intrude on her space. Last night was our first night with Ferdie and she cried in her crate for maybe half an hour before she settled down. Had her next to the bed w/ a blanket over the crate w/ one side flapped up so she could see us in bed. Just tried to ignore her and let her wind herself down, which she did. Woke up at 4 to go out and cried another 20 minutes before she got quiet again, just before I was going to try and take her back out!! I think at that point she just laid in the crate awake until we also got up at like 7, cause every time I popped my head up to see what she was doing, she also popped her head up.

We're crate training her now using her crate and expen in the living room. She cries and cries in the crate so we've tried taking her out to pee again and then coming back inside to the crate if she doesn't eliminate. Seems like she thinks it's playtime out back (small yard) cause she just bites the plants and hops around. Wondering if that keeps her from learning this is a time to try to potty. Either way, she just cries and cries if we have to put her back in there!! It's sad to see but are we supposed to keep going back and forth to the bathroom or at some point do we just not take her out and hope she just stops crying? Karen said she never crated except to sleep, so we're debating just putting her in the whole expen instead of the crate but she fusses almost just as much!

It's only day 2, so I know we're just getting started. Just want to make sure we're doing what's best for her!


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

When Ferdie goes into the yard to potty is she on a leash or does she have run of the yard? Taking her out on a leash lets you control the space she is allowed to explore and lets you take her to a specific potty area of the yard. After she potties then she can have some fun time in the yard. If you are going to stick with the crate to potty train then she does have to go back in there if she didn't potty and you try again in a little while. You are only on day two so this is early in the game and they will try every trick in the book to get you to feel sorry for them enough to take them out of the crate or pen and be free! If you decide to not use the crate to train then you will need a potty area in the expen. Otherwise, you will most likely have accidents in any space bigger than the crate with such a young puppy. Hang in there!


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## chocohavapup (Apr 18, 2019)

Molly120213 said:


> When Ferdie goes into the yard to potty is she on a leash or does she have run of the yard? Taking her out on a leash lets you control the space she is allowed to explore and lets you take her to a specific potty area of the yard. After she potties then she can have some fun time in the yard. If you are going to stick with the crate to potty train then she does have to go back in there if she didn't potty and you try again in a little while. You are only on day two so this is early in the game and they will try every trick in the book to get you to feel sorry for them enough to take them out of the crate or pen and be free! If you decide to not use the crate to train then you will need a potty area in the expen. Otherwise, you will most likely have accidents in any space bigger than the crate with such a young puppy. Hang in there!


We haven't been using a leash but we have a pretty small back yard (only about 4x15 of dirt). It's just hard to know if she really has to go or not because she cries from the moment we stick her back in! And all this talk about not rewarding bad behavior makes me not want to take her back out of the crate when she's crying to go outside. I feel like I understand the rules, but they're hard to line up!


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

chocohavapup said:


> We hope to get there one day!! Our old lady maltipoo Daisy has reign of the bed right now, so we want to wait about a year before we let the puppy intrude on her space. Last night was our first night with Ferdie and she cried in her crate for maybe half an hour before she settled down. Had her next to the bed w/ a blanket over the crate w/ one side flapped up so she could see us in bed. Just tried to ignore her and let her wind herself down, which she did. Woke up at 4 to go out and cried another 20 minutes before she got quiet again, just before I was going to try and take her back out!! I think at that point she just laid in the crate awake until we also got up at like 7, cause every time I popped my head up to see what she was doing, she also popped her head up.
> 
> We're crate training her now using her crate and expen in the living room. She cries and cries in the crate so we've tried taking her out to pee again and then coming back inside to the crate if she doesn't eliminate. Seems like she thinks it's playtime out back (small yard) cause she just bites the plants and hops around. Wondering if that keeps her from learning this is a time to try to potty. Either way, she just cries and cries if we have to put her back in there!! It's sad to see but are we supposed to keep going back and forth to the bathroom or at some point do we just not take her out and hope she just stops crying? Karen said she never crated except to sleep, so we're debating just putting her in the whole expen instead of the crate but she fusses almost just as much!
> 
> It's only day 2, so I know we're just getting started. Just want to make sure we're doing what's best for her!


Here is my suggestion: Use the crate for sleeping. And, don't worry about Ferdie not eliminating when you take her outside. Use the ex-pen during the day. In the ex-pen have a fluffy bed, toys, water, a potty tray and feed and give her treats in the ex-pen. The ex-pen should be in the busy part of your home. She wants to see and be with you and the family. When you have eyes on her open the door and let her wonder in and out of the ex-pen. If you can. block off the room with the ex-pen that way it keeps her confined to a small room area ... all the better. When Ferdie gets sleepy put her inside the ex-pen and close the door. Puppies nap a lot. You can, also, move her to the crate for mid morning or afternoon naps. I let my puppy, Patti, sleep in the ex-pen during the day. I used the crate at night.

If you don't want to indoor house break Ferdie, take her outside on a leash and give her a verbal command. Go Pee. Do Your Job, or whatever fits your style. When she pees or poop, give her a small treat with lots of praise. It's called having a party. After Ferdie eliminates let her play around before taking her back in. As she gets older she'll figure out she'll be taken back inside after eliminating and will hold it instead of going on command.

If she doesn't eliminate take her back inside and put her in the ex-pen. You can wait a little while and take her outside again. However, if Ferdie feels the need to go and you don't catch her in time, she'll most likely go to the potty tray. If she does praise and give her a treat. You want Ferdie to potty on the tray or outside, not on the floor or around the house. If you catch her starting to pee or poo, Clap Your Hands. That often stops them. Pick her up and take her outside. Or, put her on the potty tray if you decide to indoor-house break her.

Puppies pee and poo ALL the time. You can take them outside. They'll do their job. Bring them right back inside and they'll do it again.

It's much easier, quicker, along with lots of benefits using the indoor-house breaking method. My puppy was housebroken the first day when we put her in the ex-pen. She housebroke herself because she naturally used the potty tray. Dogs don't want to eliminate where they sleep or play. Of course, at 8 weeks if she wondered too far from the ex-pen she had to be taught how to get back to the ex-pen to potty.

I tried outdoor house breaking. I read... take them out every 30 minutes. Well... my experience was Pattie peed and pooped all the time. Then I tried every 15 minutes. Brought her back in and she peed again. :surprise:

*NEVER *remove Ferdie when she crying or barking to get out of the crate or ex-pen. Wait 10 seconds until they stop then take them out. Otherwise, she'll bark or cry all the time until you take her out. Sounds like you're doing that. At night or during the day when she's wakes up take her out to pee on the potty tray or outside. She might give you a little Yelp! saying I need to go.

You want Ferdie to love the ex-pen and crate. Patti loved her ex-pen because all her Stuff was in there. When we gave her a treat or new toy, she would take it into her ex-pen. Sometimes I would remove all her toys and put them outside of the ex-pen for her to play with. One by one she would take them back inside the ex-pen. So cute! Even when Patti was playing outside of the ex-pen, when she needed to pee or poo she would run back inside the ex-pen to the potty tray.

I would use the crate for sleeping and keep it in your room if that's where she sleeps at night. Put a treat in the crate for napping or night sleeping. She'll learn to look forward to going.

*KEEP IN MIND ... DOGS WHO ARE INDOOR-HOUSEBROKEN, ARE HOUSEBROKEN AND ALL EVENTUALLY PREFER AND WANT TO GO OUTSIDE. SO, IT'S OK FOR YOUR PUPPY TO PEE ON THE POTTY PAD, WHILE YOUR ALSO OUTDOOR HOUSEBREAKING. YOU'RE GOING TO BE A TIRED, EXHAUSTED PUPPY MOM FOR SEVERAL MONTHS. SO MAKE IT EASY ON YOURSELF AND PUPPY. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS YOU WANT THE DOG TO LEARN TO GO IN WHERE THEIR SUPPOSE TO GO. ON A POTTY TRAY OR OUTSIDE. IF YOU WANT TO DO INDOOR-HOUSEBREAKING DON'T TRAIN THEM TO GO OUTSIDE. THEY'LL NATURALLY DO THAT LATER. *


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

chocohavapup said:


> We haven't been using a leash but we have a pretty small back yard (only about 4x15 of dirt). It's just hard to know if she really has to go or not because she cries from the moment we stick her back in! And all this talk about not rewarding bad behavior makes me not want to take her back out of the crate when she's crying to go outside. I feel like I understand the rules, but they're hard to line up!


The tips that worked for me that I'd like to share.
1. Cover the crate at night. I get a treat she gets only at night. For Zumba, it's dried banana chips. I break it up and we go to her crate. I put the chips inside, and She goes in to get it. I say "good night' and close the door, and then cover the cage so she can not see out at all. She is nice and cozy in there. This worked from the very first night.

2. If she whimpers, I would put my fingers in there to let her know she's not alone. She knows it, but needed the reinforcement for the first couple of nights. Don't talk when you dangle your fingers. Just fingers. That's all the reassurance your baby needs. After all, she just left her home. With all the siblings, cousins, and other companions. She should lick your fingers, and settle back down. If she doesn't, then she may need to go out to potty.

3. To say to NEVER take out a dog if barking, is rather harsh, I'd say. Zumba has been sick a couple of times during the night and I am glad I paid attention when her whimper turned into a bark. She was telling me, "I am serious. I need to get out NOW." My advice here is to be patient. You and your dog will learn to communicate.

4. By the way, no food and little water from 2 hours before bedtime, so there should be less need for potty during the night. Except for that one little treat.

Good luck. Enjoy! They do get older.


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## DKJones (Jul 23, 2019)

My 4 month old is doing better with potty training. We are training him to go outside only. He sleeps in the crate and has been from the day we got him. He got up in the night for a couple of weeks and then started sleeping through. But during the day he has to go out every 2 hours unless we crate him then he will go for 4 -5 hours no problem. My Question is i have never tried to keep him out of the crate for more than 2 hours without taking him out and he does not tell us if he is outside the crate by any signal if he has to go except once I caught him sniffing and going back and forth so knew he had to poop. how you train your dog to let you know or how do your pup's tell you outside the crate that they have to go. (He stays in the play pen for most day but also sits in my room with me while I am working on a leash.


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

DKJones said:


> My 4 month old is doing better with potty training. We are training him to go outside only. He sleeps in the crate and has been from the day we got him. He got up in the night for a couple of weeks and then started sleeping through. But during the day he has to go out every 2 hours unless we crate him then he will go for 4 -5 hours no problem. My Question is i have never tried to keep him out of the crate for more than 2 hours without taking him out and he does not tell us if he is outside the crate by any signal if he has to go except once I caught him sniffing and going back and forth so knew he had to poop. how you train your dog to let you know or how do your pup's tell you outside the crate that they have to go. (He stays in the play pen for most day but also sits in my room with me while I am working on a leash.


I don't know how you train a dog to signal you to go out unless you have trained them to ring a bell. In my experience, dogs find a way to tell you on their own as they mature. If you always use the same door to exit your home for potty your dog may go sit by the door to signal you. Molly will either stand up on our legs or come up to us on our laps and get in our face if we are sitting down. Believe me, she lets you know when she needs to go potty and we did not train her to do this.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

If you're using the same door to take your puppy out to potty, when he has more freedom to roam around he'll likely go to the door and paw or bark. If you hang bells on the door and each time you taken him outside, help the puppy paw the bell. He'll eventually get the idea and when older he'll paw the bell when he wants outs. I doubt at four months he's housebroken and probably a little young to ask to out.

I taught my other dogs to Bark to go out. I'd go to the door and say,"Arf, Arf"... then let them out. Patti is a year and half, she'll gently paw the door and sometimes Bark. She taught herself how to Ask.


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