# Mi first day in formal obedience training, I have questions



## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

This morning was mi first day in formal obedience training. This is a basic home obedience training and is not meant for competition training. There 12 dogs in mi class of various breeds, sizes, and ages.

Popi said I did real good, but he said that we need to work on mi concentration on him and not on the other doggies in mi class when working together. The trainer said that I was the most advanced in mi class, especially responding to a clicker (which is not part of this class). The trainer said that she was going to give mi and Popi a little more latitude how we do tings since she knows that I will graduate into an AKC obedience competition class after this class and they do tings a bit different.

Here are mi questions for those of you who are already into obedience competitions (tia Karen?).

- where can I find the rules for AKC novice obedience competition somewhere on-line?
- what is the collar/leash that is permitted in competitions for the novice class? What is the specific one Popi should purchase?
- how many times is allowed for a verbal or hand command during a novice competition?

O.K., time for 10 or 15 minutes of practice before dinner :juggle:,,,,,,,I love going to school! 

besos, Ricky Ricardo


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Oh man!!! I can't believe this!!! i just wrote you a LONG response, and it crashed on me!!!

I'm going to take your question over into Word, re-write, and then post it!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

OK, trying again:

Here are mi questions for those of you who are already into obedience competitions (tia Karen?).

where can I find the rules for AKC novice obedience competition somewhere on-line?

http://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/americankennelclub/Obedience/AKC699_RO2999_1114_WEB.pdf

what is the collar/leash that is permitted in competitions for the novice class? What is the specific one Popi should purchase?

There is quite a bit of latitude on leashes in AKC. Basically, you can't use a prong or pinch collar or an e-collar. Almost anything else is OK. There must be no tags on the collar, however. I prefer a 5' thin, soft, leather lead for obedience with a Havanese, because it is long enough to give you room for the "j" loop you need for a loose lead, but at the same time it's not so long that the dog is tripping over it. People with larger dogs often use a shorter lead.

- how many times is allowed for a verbal or hand command during a novice competition?

This varies depending on the exercise, but there is usually not more than ONE either voice or hand signal for any part of an exercise in a FEW instances (though not at the novice level) you must give a simultaneous hand and voice signal, and of course, at the Utility level, there is an exercise where ONLY hand signals can be used. (Again, the rule book spells this all out) extra cues/commands/signals cost you 3 points each. In some parts of some exercises, a second command is an NQ. (Such as when you call the dog on the recall exercise)

Remember that Novice isn't the lowest level class. beginner Novice is a much easier entry point than Novice, as there is no off leash heeling nor are there any group stays. pre-Novice is the same as Novice, except there are no group stays in that either.

And if you want to be able to talk to you dog more, rally allows as much chatter as you want. AKC rally even allows multiple commands without penalty.


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## Napria (May 17, 2015)

Great thread! I did obedience with my first corgi and he LOVED it! All my other dogs didn't seem too enthusiastic. But I'm counting on doing obedience with Baci, with the hope of moving on to agility. I hear Havanese have the right personality for agility and obedience classes are a must. How far does one need to progress in obedience before starting agility, usually?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Napria said:


> Great thread! I did obedience with my first corgi and he LOVED it! All my other dogs didn't seem too enthusiastic. But I'm counting on doing obedience with Baci, with the hope of moving on to agility. I hear Havanese have the right personality for agility and obedience classes are a must. How far does one need to progress in obedience before starting agility, usually?


Certainly ALL dogs need a level of basic "pet" obedience. Most of that can be accomplished during the first year, while they are still too young, physically, to be doing agility anyway.

Beyond that, the two really split.  You can CERTAINLY do both, but you don't need to have more than normal, good, "pet" type obedience to do agility. You need a good start line (and table) stay, and the dog must have a good recall and be willing to work with you without running off. Beyond that, it gets REALLY different. In obedience, the dog must work, with precision, in a tight heel position on the left side. In agility, they must be willing to regularly work MUCH farther away from you, and on either side, at speed. But there is no need for the same level of precision.

You can certainly do both with many dogs, as long as they have a good working attitude and you are willing to do the (considerable) work necessary to do both sports. There are lots of dogs with the lower titles in both. But most dogs are better at one or the other, partially because of basic aptitude, partialy because few people (and dogs!) have the time it takes to train and compete at a high level in both sports!


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> Oh man!!! I can't believe this!!! i just wrote you a LONG response, and it crashed on me!!!


Popi says he wishes he had a peso for every time that has happened to him! And gracias for sticking with it and the MUY helpful information.



krandall said:


> There is quite a bit of latitude on leashes in AKC. ......... Almost anything else is OK.


Can you use a harness? I do have a nylon collar that passes through a ring, but I am afraid this might hurt my throat if Popi accidentally gets two vigorous. Anyway to get a picture of the competition collar you use? I'll share mi bully stick with you. :biggrin1:



> Remember that Novice isn't the lowest level class. beginner Novice is a much easier entry point than Novice, as there is no off leash heeling nor are there any group stays. pre-Novice is the same as Novice, except there are no group stays in that either.


Xellent information, I dint know that. I'm gonna start at "bigginer novice" level and work mi way up.



Napria said:


> How far does one need to progress in obedience before starting agility, usually?


Popi contacted an Agility training facility near us. They told Popi that all doggies must know basic commands - heal, sit, stay, stand, don't poop on course ound: (jus joking!) - before they will be accepted into their training program, and they will be tested first. They don't care where the basic obedience was learned, you just have to know it. You may find that other facilities have different requirements.

It appears two mi that it is an easier progression to go from obedience comp to rally comp before going into agility. Take a look at some of mi amigo Kodi obedience and rally videos on YouTube, MUY instructional!

buena suerte (good luck) to all mi amigos in competition, Ricky Ricardo


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Can you use a harness? I do have a nylon collar that passes through a ring, but I am afraid this might hurt my throat if Popi accidentally gets two vigorous. Anyway to get a picture of the competition collar you use? I'll share mi bully stick with you. :biggrin1:


No, you cannot EVER use a harness in AKC competition. BUT, since the dog should ALWAYS be working on a loose lead, there is very little danger of hurting their neck. Pixel is already heeling quite well, and has not done ANY heel work with a lead on. The goal should be to have the dog in the same position that they will be in for all other heeling in obedience with the leash just as a "safety net". Even in Novice level, only the initial heeling pattern and figure 8 are done on lead. Then you need to do the heeling pattern off lead. If you can't maintain a loose lead on leash, you aren't going to be able to keep your dog with you on the heel free. And above Novice level, the leash comes off as soon as the dog goes through the in gate. ALL exercises are done off leash.

I would not use a "choke" type collar on a Havanese, even if it is nylon rather than chain. Actually, chain releases its tension faster, so is kinder than a nylon choke. (But I wouldn't use that type of collar on any dog ) i use plain buckle collars. I don't care if they are clip type buckles or regular buckles, and i have a "selection" of collars and leads depending on what Kodi and I decide to wear that day.  I'll post a photo of a couple of Kodi's collars. The red one is just a cheap rolled leather collar from Petco. The gold and black braided leather is from this company:

http://www.stibbar.com/snap-or-slip-leashes.php

This company is very popular with obedience people, and for good reason. The leather is VERY soft and flexible, comfortable in the hand, and can be made in a huge number of colors and combinations. We have red and black, silver and black and gold and black. But they are custom work, so not cheap. Fair warning... SOME people's black and white Havanese (we won't name names) find that they are irresistable to chew, if left lying around. 



Ricky Ricardo said:


> Popi contacted an Agility training facility near us. They told Popi that all doggies must know basic commands - heal, sit, stay, stand, don't poop on course ound: (jus joking!) - before they will be accepted into their training program, and they will be tested first. They don't care where the basic obedience was learned, you just have to know it. You may find that other facilities have different requirements.


Sounds like a "serious" agility training place, and that's good. I get frustrated when people are paying good money to learn agility, and I see posts of them going around "courses" with the dog on a leash. If the dog is on leash, it is NOT the "sport" of agility. It might be fun for both parties, and if thats what they enjoy, fine. But for people to think they can go from there to competing... They will have to start over from scratch, learning real skills.



Ricky Ricardo said:


> It appears two mi that it is an easier progression to go from obedience comp to rally comp before going into agility. Take a look at some of mi amigo Kodi obedience and rally videos on YouTube, MUY instructional!


Not really. Novice level in both agility and rally have an easier "entry point" than formal obedience. There is NO reason for a dog who is targeted toward serious agility to ever set foot in a formal obedience (competition) class, let alone to compete in either rally or obedience. There are actually rather few agility dogs who ever do formal obedience or rally. Likewise, Rally is considered a "gateway" sport to formal obedience, at least in AKC. WCRL rally, at the higher levels is MUCH harder than AKC rally, and there are certainly exercises that a dog who could only do novice level formal obedience would not be prepared for. But over all, formal obedience is much harder than rally.

Agility is all over the map. There are some forms of agility where, especially the lowest levels, are quite easy, and a dog that will follow you around, and has been exposed to all the equipment can do quite well. (Weaves are the only really "hard" obstacle in agility... It DOES take time and PRACTICE to teach a dog to consistently find his entry and to weave well) at the higher levels of agility, though, it's all about team work and handling and being able to work at a distance from the handler and discriminate between obstacles. It get's really hard at the higher levels. A different KIND of hard than the higher levels of obedience, but both are very, VERY challenging!

And... You usually are training quite a bit higher than you are competing. Kodiis cometing at Opne in obedience and training Utility (the highest level) in agility, we are in a Masters level handling class, but he doesn't even have his open titles yet. He has achieved the highest titles possible in rally.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Here is heeling with a "j" loop in the lead, which is what you need for your loose leash heeling in either obedience or rally. You can see that the lead is only there because it s a requirement of the level, not because I used it to "guide" or "restrain" him in any way.

Oh, and this was the leash I used in the very beginning. (This was rally BTW) as I learned more, I found this leash both too long and too heavy.

ETA: This heeling is fine for rally, but is not tight enough for formal obedience.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

This is was what formal obedience heeling should look like, with and without a leash. Some of these are actually at rally trials, but they are WCRL trials, which are judged stricter, and also, because I do both rally and obedience, I hold us both to the same standard in rally that we need in the obedience ring! You can see he is in the same position, with or without the leash. The leash is really irrelevant. :


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

I enjoying seeing your photos, Karen.


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## DaisyMommy (Feb 28, 2015)

Wow! Daisy and I are inspired by Ricky and Kodi to go to formal obedience classes too. :biggrin1:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

DaisyMommy said:


> Wow! Daisy and I are inspired by Ricky and Kodi to go to formal obedience classes too. :biggrin1:


Yay, Daisy!


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## Napria (May 17, 2015)

We signed up Saturday. We're starting at our local pet store, but we'll progress to a more specialized trainer after our first round of lessons. When I went to the pet store, the trainer was right there and I asked him some specific questions and it turns out that they have only one other dog signed up for the Saturday classes... A Havanese!


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## harmony (Jan 18, 2015)

Is there a Junior level competition? My oldest has shown a great interest in helping me train Luna for her CGC, and I'm thinking obedience or rally or agility might be good sports to get her involved in as she gets older.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Napria said:


> We signed up Saturday. We're starting at our local pet store, but we'll progress to a more specialized trainer after our first round of lessons. When I went to the pet store, the trainer was right there and I asked him some specific questions and it turns out that they have only one other dog signed up for the Saturday classes... A Havanese!


You won't get much in the way of socialization done with just one other puppy, especially one of the same breed. Remember that the window of opportunity for socialization starts to close around 16 weeks. It's critically important that your puppy be introduced to as many, friendly, not overwhelming other dogs of as many breeds as possible during that period. That's also true about people&#8230; all sizes shapes genders ages and races. Especially large men with deep voices.

Puppy kindergarten should be MOSTLY about socialization and only secondarily about training. You have the rest of the dog's life for training, you only have a few short weeks for critical socialization.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

harmony said:


> Is there a Junior level competition? My oldest has shown a great interest in helping me train Luna for her CGC, and I'm thinking obedience or rally or agility might be good sports to get her involved in as she gets older.


They compete along with everyone else, but there are special achievement awards available for Juniors. There are specific forms that need to be filled out by the Junior and show secretary and sent to AKC to receive these awards.

I don't know all that much about it, because I don't have any juniors in my family!  WCRL has a specific class for junior handlers.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

harmony said:


> Is there a Junior level competition?


Years ago, mi auntie said she competed in 4H junior dog obedience as an 11 y.o. and won a blue ribbon at the county fair with her male Aussie.

besos, Ricky Ricardo


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> The gold and black braided leather is from this company:
> 
> http://www.stibbar.com/snap-or-slip-leashes.php
> 
> This company is very popular with obedience people, and for good reason. The leather is VERY soft and flexible, comfortable in the hand, and can be made in a huge number of colors and combinations.


Gracias! Popi ordered one in special colors for mi and it is on the way with a 5 ft. lead two!



> Novice level in both agility and rally have an easier "entry point" than formal obedience. There is NO reason for a dog who is targeted toward serious agility to ever set foot in a formal obedience (competition) class, let alone to compete in either rally or obedience. There are actually rather few agility dogs who ever do formal obedience or rally. Likewise, Rally is considered a "gateway" sport to formal obedience, at least in AKC. WCRL rally, at the higher levels is MUCH harder than AKC rally, and there are certainly exercises that a dog who could only do novice level formal obedience would not be prepared for. But over all, formal obedience is much harder than rally.


Bow WOW! Good information. I had no idea. Popi and mi are going to have to reconsider our strategy for more training.



> And... You usually are training quite a bit higher than you are competing. Kodiis cometing at Opne in obedience and training Utility (the highest level) in agility, we are in a Masters level handling class, but he doesn't even have his open titles yet. He has achieved the highest titles possible in rally.


So if I understand correctly, mi amigo Kodi started in Rally, went as high as he could go and is now working his way up in Obedience. After winning the highest title in Obedience (which I have no doubt he will) will yous guys then go into Agility training?



krandall said:


> This is was what formal obedience heeling should look like, with and without a leash. ...........You can see he is in the same position, with or without the leash. The leash is really irrelevant. :


In the pictures, Kodi is always looking up at you. In mi training, I look up at Popi for a couple of steps and then I look forward for a couple of steps and then I look up again. Should a doggie always be looking up (never forward) when working on or off a lead?

besos y gracias, Ricky


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Years ago, mi auntie said she competed in 4H junior dog obedience as an 11 y.o. and won a blue ribbon at the county fair with her male Aussie.
> 
> besos, Ricky Ricardo


4H is completely different than AKC, however. 4H encompasses many other types of competition besides dogs&#8230; dogs are a very small part of the program. There are some very good people who work with 4H groups, but all the people are volunteers, and some are not so good and introduce harsh methods to children. So, if you are interested in getting your child involved in 4H, check out whoever is leading the group CAREFULLY, and find out what kind of training they do.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Gracias! Popi ordered one in special colors for mi and it is on the way with a 5 ft. lead two!


Yay! You'll love it. Just don't love to EAT it, or your Popi might get mad at you. Kodi has been told a few times that his Stibbar leashes are worth more than HE is! 



Ricky Ricardo said:


> Bow WOW! Good information. I had no idea. Popi and mi are going to have to reconsider our strategy for more training.


Training for obedience and rally are EXACTLY the same in the beginning. The dog needs to heel well at slow, normal and fast speeds, sit, down, stand, front, finish and stay. Beyond novice in both obedience and rally (AKC) you also need to know how to jump a single, low jump. In CDSP obedience, you need to jump a single, low jump even in Novice.

Rally might SEEM confusing because of all the different signs, but if you look at the requirements for each individual sign, it will fit into one of the categories above. For instance, there is a "360 right" sign in rally, but this is just to heel in a small circle to the right. Or a "Sit and walk around" is just to have the dog sit at heel, then stay there, while you walk around him, and back to heel position. So it is just a "sit" and a (very short) "stay". The challenge in rally is more that the HANDLER has to learn all the possible signs that could be used, and how to execute them.

What makes rally "easier" than formal obedience, especially at the lower levels, is that you can talk to your dog as much as you want, use hand signals along with your voice as much as you want, and (at least in AKC) you can give multiple commands without losing points. So you can give your dog a LOT more information (and encouragement!!!) than you can in formal obedience. In AKC obedience, what you can say, and when you can say it is VERY proscribed. You can't say ANYTHING extra during an exercise. Only after the judge has said "Exercise finished!" can you praise and pat your dog as you move to the beginning spot for the next exercise. Some people love this challenge, others REALLY want to be able to talk to their dogs more. CDSP obedience allows you to talk a little bit more. You still can't "chatter" the way you can in rally, but you can cue your dog for various parts of each exercise, and you can give "brief words of encouragement." So it's not a lot, but it's enough that some dogs find it easier to stay connected. Many of us find that CDSP obedience is great, not only as an introduction for our dogs to each level, but also as a way to keep them fresh and engaged in between the more rigid AKC obedience competitions.



Ricky Ricardo said:


> So if I understand correctly, mi amigo Kodi started in Rally, went as high as he could go and is now working his way up in Obedience. After winning the highest title in Obedience (which I have no doubt he will) will yous guys then go into Agility training?


No, Kodi started training in obedience as soon as he finished puppy kindergarten. He started formal agility training at one year, when his joints were mature enough for it to be safe. Before he was a year, he learned "agility readiness" skills, like walking through a ladder so that he knew where his feet were, climbing up and down a very low A-frame and running through tunnels. He also learned the "concept" of jumping by learning to run over a small bar on the ground and to work on both sides of me, changing speed as he did so.

We started competing in obedience (and agility!) W-A-Y before we finished our highest rally title. He competed in his first rally competition at 15 months, his first agility trial at just about 2 years and his first formal obedience trial at 2 1/2.

We only finished his ARCHMX (the highest rally title) last fall. (at 5 1/2 years) For the ARCHMX in WCRL, besides having earned all the lower titles, you must "QQQ" (qualify at all three levels) with a minimum score of 195 (out of 210) in the same trial. And you must do that ten times. We needed 66 "Q's" (including a bunch of "QQ's") before we were eligible to *START* our ARCHMX run. Then the 30 Q's for that.

What we did that is pretty unusual is that we got absolutely NO NQ's while working on our ARCHMX, and only 3 scores under 200. And 8 of his scores were 210's (perfect scores) It just plain takes a long time to get through that many legs. We started our MX run in 10/13 and finished in 9/14. So it took almost a year for that title&#8230; and that was without losing a single leg.

The same is true in CDSP obedience, and the higher levels in AKC obedience. it takes 10 Q's at each level in CDSP to get a championship at that level, and 10 QQ's in Open and Utility in AKC to earn your UDX. (I can't remember what the requirements are for UDX or OtCH in CDSP or OtCH in AKC)

Oh, and in the interest of full disclosure, I should say we never have finished our AKC RAE title. (AKC's highest rally title) Not because we couldn't&#8230; it's actually much easier than even a level 3 title in WCRL. But he's already got his RE, and we got about 1/2 our RAE legs. I just got bored with it. It wasn't challenging, and I decided that I would rather work on our obedience titles than to continue to do rally just for ANOTHER piece of paper.  Maybe when he's semi-retired, we'll go back and finish it up. In the mean time, we're having more fun working on directed jumping, scent discrimination and directed retrieves!

And in Agility, after a minimum of 3 legs at each level in each venue, then you need 10 QQ's for your MACH in AKC) or the equivalent in the other venues.

So we do rally some weekends, obedience other weekends and agility still other weekends. You also need to know your dog, and how much they can do and stay happy and enthusiastic. I see some people doing 4 trials in one weekend with a dog working on an MX in WCRL. That's 12 runs in one weekend! At the end of the weekend, I see a tired dog, who may still be working because they love their owner, but they are no longer doing it because they are enjoying their work. That's not what I want for Kodi. I never ask him to do more than 3 runs in a day, or two trials in a weekend. And we USUALLY don't trial more often than, at most, 2 weekends per month. If we have a schedule where there are 3 trials in succession that I just don't want to miss for some reason, I make sure we have at least a month or 6 weeks off afterwards.

Some dogs can do more than this, some less. You just have to learn what's right for your dog (and your own personal schedule! )



Ricky Ricardo said:


> In the pictures, Kodi is always looking up at you. In mi training, I look up at Popi for a couple of steps and then I look forward for a couple of steps and then I look up again. Should a doggie always be looking up (never forward) when working on or off a lead?


There is no rule in any venue that the dog must be looking up at you all the time. The rules are about the position of the dog's body in relation to the handler, and that the dog must adapt his pace to the handler, not the other way around. The dog will lose points for being too far forward, (called "forging") too far back, (called lagging) bumping into the handler, (called crowding) or being too far away from the handler. (called going wide) You will also lose points if the dog is not absolutely straight at your side in his sit, (during heeling and finishes) or in front of you in fronts. On fronts, he must also be close enough that you can easily touch him.

That said, you will see that the dogs who get the best scores in heeling are ALWAYS the dogs whose attention is on their handler all the time. If the dog is continually dropping their head to look around, it is much too easy for them to either get distracted or just miss a cue to turn, halt or change pace. And there's another problem for our little dogs&#8230; their noses are just much closer to all the tantalizing smells on the floor. If they aren't looking up at us, it is SO easy for that nose to drop just a little lower and start sniffing!!! Once the nose goes down to the ground, the brain very often leaves the handler completely! 

And to be clear, this is COMPETITION RING heeling, NOT "every-day" loose leash walking. It's hard work for the dog, and would be an uncomfortable position for a long walk. It's also not particularly safe on an uneven surface. Kodi isn't asked to walk that way when we are out and about. In fact, unless we are purposely practicing, if I notice him getting into a formal heel, I will tell him, "go be a dog!" and send him out in front of me. 

But the heeling pattern, in obedience, is less than 90 seconds. In rally, there are breaks for different exercises, so it's not non-stop heeling, but the whole course, even in WCRL, where the courses are much longer, is typically not more than 3 minutes. (unless you've got a REALLY slow dog! )


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Gracias, tia Karen for all your good, detailed information



krandall said:


> The dog needs to heel well at slow, normal and fast speeds, sit, down, stand, front, finish and stay.


Si, I am working on all of these. I think "finish" means sitting on the handler's left side? I am learning this as "around" from a "front."



> Or a "Sit and walk around" is just to have the dog sit at heel, then stay there, while you walk around him, and back to heel position. So it is just a "sit" and a (very short) "stay". The challenge in rally is more that the HANDLER has to learn all the possible signs that could be used, and how to execute them.


I can do this, but Popi needs to up his game to learn all the signs.



> There is no rule in any venue that the dog must be looking up at you all the time. The rules are about the position of the dog's body in relation to the handler, and that the dog must adapt his pace to the handler, not the other way around. The dog will lose points for being too far forward, (called "forging") too far back, (called lagging) bumping into the handler, (called crowding) or being too far away from the handler. (called going wide) You will also lose points if the dog is not absolutely straight at your side in his sit, (during heeling and finishes) or in front of you in fronts. On fronts, he must also be close enough that you can easily touch him.


Popi wants mi almost touching his feet on mi "fronts!" I tink he is a little anil about dis. How close should a doggie be to the handler (approximately) when heeling and sitting in order to be in compliance with the rules?



> If the dog is continually dropping their head to look around, it is much too easy for them to either get distracted or just miss a cue to turn, halt or change pace. And there's another problem for our little dogs&#8230; their noses are just much closer to all the tantalizing smells on the floor. If they aren't looking up at us, it is SO easy for that nose to drop just a little lower and start sniffing!!! Once the nose goes down to the ground, the brain very often leaves the handler completely!


GUILTY as charged :brick:, but I'm working on it with Popi's "watch mi" command.



> And to be clear, this is COMPETITION RING heeling, NOT "every-day" loose leash walking. It's hard work for the dog, and would be an uncomfortable position for a long walk. It's also not particularly safe on an uneven surface. Kodi isn't asked to walk that way when we are out and about. In fact, unless we are purposely practicing, if I notice him getting into a formal heel, I will tell him, "go be a dog!" and send him out in front of me.


Gracias, gracias, gracias! :kiss: I'm gonna make Popi write dis 100 times on the blackboard! Popi tries to mix in a little competition training while I do mi casual walkies and it is confusing to mi. We gonna get dis fixed write now!

FedEx jus called. Mi new collar and leash is arriving today! :whoo:

besos, Ricky Ricardo


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Si, I am working on all of these. I think "finish" means sitting on the handler's left side? I am learning this as "around" from a "front."


Yes, "finish" and set up" are both sitting at the handler's left side, with the dog's shoulder lined up with the seam of your pants. You need to do both "left finishes" (those are the "flying finishes" that Kodi does, though that's not really necessary&#8230; he's just a show-off  ) and "right finishes" where the dog goes around behind the handler to get to finish position. That's probably what you are calling "around"

I don't use voice commands for either one, just hand signals. But you can use either a voice command OR a hand signal in obedience, and you can use both together in rally.



Ricky Ricardo said:


> I can do this, but Popi needs to up his game to learn all the signs.


Yes, it often takes longer for us humans to learn our part!  You'll just have to learn to read the signs for him!



Ricky Ricardo said:


> Popi wants mi almost touching his feet on mi "fronts!" I tink he is a little anil about dis. How close should a doggie be to the handler (approximately) when heeling and sitting in order to be in compliance with the rules?


Well, the rule of thumb is that if you can touch the dog's head, they are "close enough" (for us with little dogs, if you took a line down from your hand and it would touch the dog's head) In reality it's a bit different for a couple of reasons. First, when we ask my instructor about what's "good enough" she says "Ask yourself this. If another dog was straight, centered and touching the handler's toes with his toes, and your dog was somewhere further away, should you both get the same score? If not, then you should lose something for it. It wouldn't be a lot, but a half point here and a half point there adds up.

Second, things almost ALWAYS get worse under the stress of a trial situation. So if your dog is ALREADY sitting as far from you has he legally can, and your at a trial, and he ends up even FURTHER away&#8230; especially if you need to take his dumbbell from him after a retrieve, you'r going to be in trouble. So you are right to work on getting it as close as possible.

Many little dogs are afraid of getting stepped on (with good reason) so have learned to keep their distance from feet. So, as much as possible, when working on fronts, at least for a while, do it in sock feet. (this is true if you want tight heeling too!)

Do you know how to "shape" a behavior with a clicker? If so, start working on shaping him to actually put his front feet on your toes. When delivering treats for fronts, make SURE you don't reach toward him. Put your hands TIGHT against your legs and make him come in tight for the treat. Feed from both hands together, or use alternate hands, our you'll start getting crooked sits as he looks for one hand or the other.

You can also stand with your feet a bit apart. (in training&#8230; not at a trial) As he comes toward you to front, through the treat between your legs and have him actually go THROUGH your legs to get it. these exercises will help him become more comfortable with the idea of being close. If he knows about working on a sit box, that can help too&#8230; put that in front of you, and call him front. The box will help him find the right position. If he doesn't know about sit boxes, teach him! It is INVALUABLE in teaching MANY behaviors!!!



Ricky Ricardo said:


> GUILTY as charged :brick:, but I'm working on it with Popi's "watch mi" command.


Hmmm. Not sure that's a good idea. You can't be going around the ring saying "watch me!" in competition. Instead, I would stand VERY QUIETLY, wait for him to look at you (AS LONG AS IT TAKES) then click/treat. Next ask him to sit in heel position. Don't move, just look at him. When HE makes eye contact, click/treat. When he is making eye contact RELIABLY when you "set up", take one step. If he maintains eye contact click/treat, run away with him and play. Be fun, interesting and unpredictable! When he can reliably take one step without losing eye contact, ask for two, then short stretches. This will take time. The amount of time varies with the dog, but the more you rush it, the less consistent your heeling will be. Get this ingrained, and make it FUN and EXCITING and you'll have a beautiful "dance partner"!

Remember, also, that Ricky is an ex-show dog. He was trained to stay out away from the handler, to look straight ahead and to stand away from the handler to "stack". He has some "unlearning" to do that my dogs haven't needed. It may take a little longer to get the attention you want, but be patient. He'll get it. he's a Havanese&#8230; we KNOW he's smart! 



Ricky Ricardo said:


> Gracias, gracias, gracias! :kiss: I'm gonna make Popi write dis 100 times on the blackboard! Popi tries to mix in a little competition training while I do mi casual walkies and it is confusing to mi. We gonna get dis fixed write now!


Yes. Its OK to do training on walks, but it should be clear WHEN you are training. As for a clear obvious set-up. do some fronts and finishes. Then ask for a few steps of good heeling. Then make an obvious break in the work for some vigorous play, whether it's running with you, chasing a ball, or playing tug. Then develop a specific word to say your done training. With my dogs, I hold up my hands (to show there are no more treats or toys on offer) and say, "All done!" During training, you want his undivided attention, and he should be able to count on yours. If it feels to him like YOU just "lose attention and wander off", why shouldn't he do the same? So you want to be able to tell him when BOTH of you can go back to your casual "chums" relationship.



Ricky Ricardo said:


> FedEx jus called. Mi new collar and leash is arriving today! :whoo:
> 
> Your going to love it! What color(s) did you get? You're making me want to order another one! (Pixel doesn't have a set yet&#8230; Hmmm. THAT'S a good excuse, right?  )
> 
> besos, Ricky Ricardo


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

I went to mi training class yesterday; Popi and I are getting better! The trainer said, "you guys are real showoffs!"

Our trainer invited our whole class to a "pack walk" this morning. It was in a beautiful wooded park with dirt trails. About 30 doggies of all breeds and sizes showed up - the trainer's friends, students, and graduates. Although this was not meant to be a structured obedience class, it did serve for each doggie to work with their handler and not pay attention to the other doggies, some of who were pretty rowdy. It was not a playgroup, but an "on leash" walk in a pack. The first 10 minutes were very stressful for mi, some of those doggies who towered over mi wanted to sniff every part of mi and dominate mi. But Popi worked with mi gently and encouraged mi and then it got to be all kinds of fun! The walk lasted 45 minutes and the last half hour I really got into mi groove. All the doggies started ignoring the others and just concentrated on the walk.

This was a good experience for mi and Popi. We really needed this work with lots of other doggies and distractions and noise around us. We are both looking forward to the next event.

besos, Ricky Ricardo


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## MiasMomma (Jun 14, 2015)

Poking my nose into this awesome thread.
Fascinating!
Love to see how Kodi looks up at you Karen. A beautiful site 

Good luck to you Ricky the showoff. LOL! Keep right on doing it too!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> I went to mi training class yesterday; Popi and I are getting better! The trainer said, "you guys are real showoffs!"
> 
> Our trainer invited our whole class to a "pack walk" this morning. It was in a beautiful wooded park with dirt trails. About 30 doggies of all breeds and sizes showed up - the trainer's friends, students, and graduates. Although this was not meant to be a structured obedience class, it did serve for each doggie to work with their handler and not pay attention to the other doggies, some of who were pretty rowdy. It was not a playgroup, but an "on leash" walk in a pack. The first 10 minutes were very stressful for mi, some of those doggies who towered over mi wanted to sniff every part of mi and dominate mi. But Popi worked with mi gently and encouraged mi and then it got to be all kinds of fun! The walk lasted 45 minutes and the last half hour I really got into mi groove. All the doggies started ignoring the others and just concentrated on the walk.
> 
> ...


Yay! Real-life practice is fantastic. In the end, that's what this training is all about!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

MiasMomma said:


> Poking my nose into this awesome thread.
> Fascinating!
> Love to see how Kodi looks up at you Karen. A beautiful site
> 
> Good luck to you Ricky the showoff. LOL! Keep right on doing it too!


Mia can start learning this stuff even now&#8230; Pixel is even younger than Mia, and she's been is classes since I brought her home!


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

krandall said:


> Yes, "finish" and set up" are both sitting at the handler's left side, ...................... So you want to be able to tell him when BOTH of you can go back to your casual "chums" relationship.


So much useful information in this post tia Karen that I can't comment on it all. Just know that I understand it all and appreciate the time you take to respond. Popi and mi now go back to your Utube videos of you and mi amigo Kodi at competition and it is all making much more sense.

muchos besos tia Karen, Ricky


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Today Popi and I finished half our first obedience training. Tings are going well. The biggest challenge is working with lots of other doggies and distractions around.

What is interesting today, is that our class teacher took us aside and suggested that I should train specifically as a therapy doggie......besides mi potential in rally and obedience. She said that Ricky has the right personality and demeanor to be a star therapy dog. She said that she will be starting a therapy class soon and everyone is welcome but she is always looking for special students. Do you tink she is just trying to promote her classes? I know I love all peoples.

besos, Ricky Ricardo


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Today Popi and I finished half our first obedience training. Tings are going well. The biggest challenge is working with lots of other doggies and distractions around.
> 
> What is interesting today, is that our class teacher took us aside and suggested that I should train specifically as a therapy doggie......besides mi potential in rally and obedience. She said that Ricky has the right personality and demeanor to be a star therapy dog. She said that she will be starting a therapy class soon and everyone is welcome but she is always looking for special students. Do you tink she is just trying to promote her classes? I know I love all peoples.
> 
> besos, Ricky Ricardo


I think LOTS of Havanese make good therapy dogs. I think. It has to do with your goals for the near future. I know Kodi and I just don't have time in our schedule right now for therapy work. It's something we may go back to when he retires from competition. In the mean time, although he isn't "certified" as a therapy dog, he has brought joy to a number of elderly people wher my in laws live, and at the rehab facility where my father soent 6 weeks last summer. Any sweet, friendly, well behaved dog can do that! 

But it certainly won't HURT Ricky's other training in any way either!


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

I started "official" competition classes at the beginning of October. I am more advanced than the other 11 doggies in the class (I am also the smallest in class). Right now all the exercises are "on lease." In November I will start "off leash" exercises. After I complete those classes, I will then go into either "rally" or "utility" or "agility" training at this facility. I don't know what the difference is yet.

My biggest challenges right now are tight (really tight) heals, sniffing the ground, and looking up and concentrating on Popi. Popi needs to work on competition ring protocol.

I will also be starting therapy dog and service dog training as soon as Popi can schedule it.

I have bookmarked this thread, because tia Karen has pretty much written the Bible on competition training in this thread and it has been invaluable to mi and Popi. A big ARF, ARF for tia Karen and mi amigos Kodi and Pixie Pixel.

besos, Ricky Ricardo


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## Laurmann2000 (Sep 12, 2015)

What a great and informative thread. Karen your advice and information is invaluable. Thank you. Good luck Ricky. I know you'll do great.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

:frown2:Here is a GRRRRRREAT website for those doggies interested in training, weather it bee competition training or good citizen training: training site. Watch all the videos! The videos reinforce the xcellent instructions from tia Karen.

Twonight is mi weekly outdoor training class, ARF! It is raining here twoday (yeah) but I thik my outdoor class will bee cancelled (boo) :frown2:

besos, Ricky Ricardo


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