# Such a thing as too much protein??



## waybrook (Sep 13, 2009)

Wondering what y'all think...Panda has been eating Innova small bites for a couple of years now and has done well on it. The protein content is 24%. With the recall I've had to change her food - there's no "good" Innova to be found and she is was almost totally out of food. Switched her to Hi-Tek Chicken meal and sweet potato which has 32% protein. Is there such a thing as too much protein? She likes the food, and I was able to combine the new and old for a few days before going full blast on the new diet. She's had some loose poops, but not messy, but I'm thinking that's from the diet switch and not the protein %.

Would appreciate any insight into the appropriate amount of protein in our furbabies diet (if there is such a thing!)....


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

good question Donna. There is no such thing as "too much protein". Here's a letter from Sabine
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=protein_myth
Case in point, the NRC publication gives a "safe upper limit" for things like fat, vitamin A, vitamin D and some other nutrients, but there is none listed for protein. Dogs are carnivorous animals with dentition and a digestive tract that are best suited for eating meat, fat and bone. Carbohydrates can be digested, but only if they are fed in a usable form - which means with their plant cell walls broken down already. Hand a dog a sheaf of grain or a sack of raw potatoes and he couldn't get much nutrition out of that. Cook them and they become digestible. What are examples when a dog should not have too much protein. ? There are very few actually.

One thing that comes to mind immediately is a dog where kidney failure has progressed to the point where the dog is actually uremic, generally meaning lab work shows BUN over 80 mg/dl and creatinine over 4.0 mg/dl. This is where it actually makes sense to restrict protein to reduce the work load of the kidneys. I have attached a file that you might find of interest in regards to protein and kidney disease - mainly because most vets still follow long outdated information.

The other is chronic pancreatitis, because it's not only the fat content of the diet that stimulates the pancreas, protein also does


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

and when your vet tells you otherwise give him this,...

A fable that has finally been debunked is the one that states that dogs acquire kidney problems from eating too much protein. This fable was repeated so often that it became self-sustaining and axiomatic. Finally, experts in animal nutrition have buried this myth. It simply is not true that high protein levels in dog food cause kidney problems. "The dog can digest large amounts of proteins, especially those of animal origin" stated Prof. Dominique Grandjean DVM, Ph.D., at the Fourth Annual International Sled Dog Veterinary Medical Association Symposium (page 53 of 1997 PROCEEDINGS).

The following statements are quoted from CANINE AND FELINE NUTRITION 
by Case, Carey and Hirakawa,
Published by C.V.Mosby, 1995

"The protein requirement for the cat is significantly higher than that of the dog." (page 131) 
"There is no conclusive evidence showing that protein intake actually contributes to the development of kidney dysfunction in healthy animals." (page 117) 
"It is recommended that the protein in the diet of geriatric dogs should not be restricted simply because of old age." (page 256) 
"In general, high-quality animal source proteins provide superior amino acid balances for companion animals, compared with the amino acid balances that are supplied by grain proteins." (page 174) 

Current, and even ignored thirty-year-old research by Dr. David S. Kronfeld and others, spells out the evolutionary need for canines to have sources of high quality protein such as is found in animal tissues. Meat (muscle tissue), organ tissues such as liver, kidneys, spleen, and heart are particularly rich in the complex molecules called Amino Acids that end up as protein. There are 22 Amino Acids involved with the dog’s metabolism and of these the dog requires 10 different Amino Acids to be supplied by the diet. The other 12 required Amino Acids can be manufactured internally in the dog’s liver. Grains tend to be better sources ofcarbohydrate, a quick source of energy. Animal-derived tissues are more easily digestible and have a more complete array of Amino Acids than do grains. Meats and meat by-products (meat by-products are blood and organ tissues and do not include hide, hair, hooves and teeth) are exceptionally high quality protein sources for dogs. (That’s right! Meat by-products are excellent sources of nourishment for dogs. By-products do not contain floor sweepings, old flea collars, gasoline or machine parts. We all need to have an open mind and take a look at what by-products really are.)

“But too much protein is bad, right?” you ask. Do your own research and poll half a dozen nutrition specialists (not the guy who runs the local pet shop) and here is what you will find: There is no general agreement among expert nutritionists regarding what constitutes “too much” protein in the dog’s diet. Research shows that dogs have a high capacity for digesting and utilizing diets containing more than thirty percent protein on a dry weight basis. (Dry weight basis means the food with no moisture present. Dry dog food in a bag usually has 10 percent moisture and canned food has about 74 percent moisture.) If left to catch and consume prey to survive, as wild canines do every day, dogs’ diets would be even higher in protein than what is generally available commercially.

Think about it... do you ever see a stray dog grazing in a corn or bean field to allay its hunger? Nature has created a meat-eating machine in the dog and every day in practice I see the health benefits displayed by the feeding of meat-based diets. Dogs fed poor quality diets look and feel great only if their caretakers also feed table scraps such as chicken, meat, eggs, cottage cheese and other “left-overs.” Meat such as chicken, poultry, beef or fish should be the first ingredient listed in any dog food you judge to be “the best”.

“But what about the older pet?” you might ask. “I’ve always been told that high protein diets are bad for an older dog's kidneys; even my veterinarian says so.” What researchers have proven is this: In dogs that actually have kidney damage or dysfunction (regardless of their age) and that have a BUN level greater than 75, restricted protein intake may be beneficial but not because of any adverse impact on the kidneys. The protein these impaired dogs ingest should be of high quality such as is derived from eggs, poultry, and meat. On the other hand, high protein levels in a food DO NOT cause kidney damage in the normal, healthy dog or cat! 

So what does that mean for the older dog? It means that you should not restrict feeding high quality protein to older dogs just because they are older. There is even some valid research that indicates older dogs may need a higher percentage of protein in their diets than they required during middle age. This shouldn’t be a surprise to us because dogs evolved through the ages as meat eaters. The grain-based diets for dogs did not even exist until seventy years ago when we humans demanded the convenience, simplicity and economy of dog food in a bag.

The bottom line is this, and it is based on fact... protein intake does not cause kidney damage in healthy dogs or cats of any age. So whatever you choose as “the best” diet for your dog, make certain that an animal tissue source is listed first in the ingredient list. Your older dog or cat should, if its kidney function is normal, receive the benefits of a high quality diet rich in animal-derived protein. For an excellent source of easily understood nutrition principles consider purchasing CANINE AND FELINE NUTRITION, by Case, Carey and Hirakawa. C. V. Mosby publishes it.

PROTEIN AND HYPERACTIVITY
Most dog caretakers at one time or another have heard this pronouncement... "High protein diets can make dogs hyper!" I have searched the literature and contacted nutrition specialists regarding this myth and nowhere can I find any scientific study that proves this unfounded contention. There are no biochemical or nutritional factors that would even make this supposition appear to be credible. Hyperactivity in dogs has numerous potential motivators, including genetic temperament predispositions, but a link between high levels of protein in a dog's diet and hyperactivity has yet to be proven. I listened to a canine "expert" once tell me that Purina Hi Pro was causing hyperactivity in dogs and that he's seen it happen. I politely pointed out that Purina Hi Pro is in fact not high in protein at all... and yet the myth goes on.

Feed your dog a high quality, meat-based diet and, just as Nature set things up, your dog will thrive. Fear not the feeding of Protein.


----------



## sprorchid (Mar 30, 2010)

Diamond dog food, ripped off the formula of Innova, and they call it, 'chicken soup for the soul' adult dog food.

All my dogs eat Innova, so I switched over when the recall happened. I can tell it tastes slightly different, b/c they were wolfing it down when I first switched, lol.

and yes, there is such a thing as too much protein, even for humans.

and I had no poop issues switching over. YMMV.


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

sprorchid said:


> Diamond dog food, ripped off the formula of Innova, and they call it, 'chicken soup for the soul' adult dog food.
> 
> All my dogs eat Innova, so I switched over when the recall happened. I can tell it tastes slightly different, b/c they were wolfing it down when I first switched, lol.
> 
> ...


what do you base that statement on? Humans yes dogs no.


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/best-dog-foods/low-protein-dog-foods/


----------



## Lila (Apr 9, 2013)

I don't know. I can't prove anything scientifically but I know after a month of Mikey being on Orijen he started developing stinky gas. (Orijen is a good food. It got 5 or 6 stars and is high in protein and no grains) While he was on it his poop was only firm in the mornings then the rest of the day and night it was soft and way stinkier. I'm sure it was good for him. I don't doubt many dogs do wonderful on high protein, some probably thrive on it but since Mikey lives so closely with us, sleeps next to my head at night and is always in my lap during TV time etc. We needed to switch him. We have switched to Natural Balance Original Ultra small breed. I had asked what others use and this was one them. The protein in lower and fiber is higher. It's only been a week now but his poop is firm all the time and so far no gas. So, all this to say... All dogs are different. 

My two cents is Mikey has done better on lower protein but it's only been a week so I will have to wait and see - so far we're happy


----------



## Karen Collins (Mar 21, 2013)

I'm in agreement with you Lila. I know it's very popular to feed high protein, but I have not have good luck with it either. And I've used all the high end dog foods. 

A couple things that I find interesting and worth investigating is that pure meat only has around 20% protein content depending on the animal source. To get the high 30% & 40% numbers that some foods have, dog food manufacturers have to altar the food by dehydrating and concentrating the meat portion. That doesn't seem right. At the very least it's inconsistent with nature. Wild dogs and wolves that eat fresh meat aren't getting that high of protein. Also, if you are looking to what wild canines eat, they also consume the stomach and contents of a grazing animal that they catch. And then of course, they fast for 3-10 days depending on time of year and availability of game.

Bottom-line we have domesticated dogs that if left to their own devices would rummage through trash cans and eat McDonalds leftovers. hahahaha

I'm certainly not trying to change anyone's mind about food. Or start a debate. I just thought I would post that I have come full circle to the same place as you Lila. Sometimes it's nice to know you aren't the only one out there doing something that goes against the norm.


----------



## Lila (Apr 9, 2013)

Thanks Karen  and btw, your dog is beautiful!!!!


----------



## waybrook (Sep 13, 2009)

Wow Dave - thanks so much for all the good information! 

I didn't know about Diamond and the Innova connection, but I do know that Diamond had production problems of their own several years back. It seems exceedingly difficult to find a manufacturer who consistently turns out a quality food product. 

Panda ate Natural Balance small breed for a while - now I can't remember why I switched her to Innova, but the switch was prior to P&G buying the Innova brand.

Think I'll continue with Hi-Tek, at least finish out this bag, and see how she does. Her poops are firm but moist (don't you love how we feel the need to describe our furbabies output!) so she seems to be doing well with digestion. She has lots of energy and likes the food - now that the extra protein isn't an issue think we'll continue on...


----------



## Pixiesmom (Jul 31, 2008)

I was wondering this myself. Good to know that it's ok to give nonrestrictive protein to Pixie. I was told she's small so watch out . (???)


----------



## sprorchid (Mar 30, 2010)

Hey Dave,

I don't have 'hard' research like you to 'prove' anything. I respectfully disagree that protein content and octane in gas for cars is a parallel comparison.

I don't know anyone who would 'waste' a higher octane gas in a car, if the car couldn't utilize it.

Looking at the big picture, of an overall diet, not just one type of calorie vs. another, I do believe that there is an optimal protein percentage for each dog. YMMV.

I'm not looking for a debate, just stating my personal opinion from evidence based data, lol.


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

sprorchid said:


> Hey Dave,
> 
> I don't have 'hard' research like you to 'prove' anything. I respectfully disagree that protein content and octane in gas for cars is a parallel comparison.
> 
> ...


Thanks Jacqueline, for your views ,one thing that many people are misled by are percentages of protein. Here is an article that tries to explain protein http://www.betterdogcare.com/newdog...otein-percentages-alone-doesnt-tell-you-much/


----------



## Karen Collins (Mar 21, 2013)

Thanks for sharing that article about protein % Dave. I like seeing information broken down in comparisons like that.


----------

