# The Good and the Bad



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

We had an APDT trial last Sun. We are working toward our ARCH, which is a combined title. You have to receive scores of 195 (out of a possible 210) in both level 1 and 2 in the same trial, and you have to do that 5 times. Sunday we MIGHT have finished.

In the first two classes, (morning trial) he was right between two Malamutes, both of whom were reactive and VERY noisy, even howling all the way around during their runs. The owners kept them from getting in trouble, but it took a lot of management on their parts. They were crating in their cars, so they weren't in the building except for right around the time of their run, but, unfortunately, Kodi was sandwiched right between them in the schedule. At one point in the course, we were pointed directly toward where the Mal was warming up (and howling) and the sign required a sit, followed by a stand. No problem with the sit, but then I had to try twice to get Kodi to stand and stay standing. After reading about calming signals that Carol introduced us to, I am POSITIVE that what was happening was that Kodi was trying to tell that dog, "Hey, I'm little and I'm not a threat, please calm down!" It only cost us a few points... we still Q'd in both runs, with scores of 203 and 206 and a 4th place for the 206. 

Then in the afternoon trial, we had a good first run, another 206 for 4th place. (the Malamutes were gone!) But the judge put a sign on the course that Kodi and I have never done before. I don't know how we missed it in training, but it's not one that many judges put on the course because LOTS of dogs have trouble with it. You have to put your dog in a stay, then run away. While you are running, you call the dog to front. If the dog breaks the stay, it's an automatic NQ. I tried it several times outside the ring, and I'd say he was getting it about 75% of the time. To make things even more difficult, there was an "offset figure 8", which is 4 food bowls with screen over the top so the dogs can't get into them, that you need to figure 8 around, without the dog sniffing the bowls. (the judge made it particularly difficult by putting lamb lung in the bowls!)

When we got to that sign in the ring, I told him pretty firmly to stay. I certainly wasn't yelling at him, but I typically speak to him very quietly in the ring. As I ran away from him, he broke, then stopped and looked at me like, "Oh,oh. I did that WRONG!" I called him front and told him he was a good boy anyway, of course. But I know he was upset. You've seen the videos of him heeling, and know his typical attention. And he's usually good about the food bowls too, as long as I really get his attention before heading through them. After we started heeling again from the call front, he took off and went ACROSS THE RING to the food bowls. We had already NQ'd, of course, because he broke the stay, but I wasn't expecting that. I had a terrible time for the rest of the course; he kept leaving me and going over to the food bowls. 

The judge said something to me on the way out of the ring about his surprising lack of attention, but I don't think that's what it was at all. I think he was upset about me speaking strongly to him, and then him doing the "wrong" thing. I think all the running off and sniffing was signs of stress, not basic inattention.

I felt bad that I put him in that position... I guess that's what he gets for having a first-time dog owner as a mom! Anyway, The following two days, the only training we did was set up so that it was very easy and he couldn't make a mistake, followed by LOTS of rewards. Since then, we've practiced the stay and run away exercise a number of times, and I think he's got it now. We won't have that happen again!

And he did get one double Q in the morning, so only one set to go for his ARCH!


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

You are a wonderful first-time dog mom, what with all you do with Kodi. Sounds like Kodi did very well considering the new circumstances. Good for the two of you. 

There are two Irish Setters in our Rally class. Our training barn is right next to a chicken barn! Paybacks, I guess, for when the one setter shows up in class in heat and Augie has to follow her around the course! :biggrin1:

With that new sign you hadn't trained for - what kind of stay do you leave them in? Sit, down, standing? How far do you run before you call the dog to front? Do you stop at that time? Turn around? Or stay facing the same direction as when you were running? This sounds like a fun one to try. 

Did you work on any of the new signs for AKC or had you completed your titles before the new ones went into effect? We are working on those. They are actually kind of fun. We don't have them down smooth, by any means - Augie is doing much better than his handler! I think they are good because the dog's obedience skills have to be even more solid. 

Again, thank you for sharing your experiences. I really enjoy reading about them!


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## CarolWCamelo (Feb 15, 2012)

*Contradictory cues - ouch!*

Karen, I'm just taking a bit of your post to comment on - a bit that upsets me, but maybe I'm not understanding properly.



krandall said:


> Then in the afternoon trial, we had a good first run, another 206 for 4th place. (the Malamutes were gone!) But the judge put a sign on the course that Kodi and I have never done before. I don't know how we missed it in training, but it's not one that many judges put on the course because LOTS of dogs have trouble with it. You have to put your dog in a stay, then run away. While you are running, you call the dog to front. If the dog breaks the stay, it's an automatic NQ. I tried it several times outside the ring, and I'd say he was getting it about 75% of the time.


You have to issue a cue - and the dog is required to IGNORE THAT CUE? I HATE that! Contradictory stuff! How does that relate to real life, in ANY way? Any enlightenment from you? Thanks!

(No wonder a lot of dogs have trouble with it. I think it could easily engender distrust in the dog.)

Sat, 28 Apr 2012 08:44:30 (PDT)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

motherslittlehelper said:


> With that new sign you hadn't trained for - what kind of stay do you leave them in? Sit, down, standing? How far do you run before you call the dog to front? Do you stop at that time? Turn around? Or stay facing the same direction as when you were running? This sounds like a fun one to try.


You leave them in a sit, run forward a minimum of 2-3 steps (and it HAS to be "run" judges NQ for "mincing" steps) then, with your back still to the dog, you call the dog to heel, and when they catch up, front. (you can back up a couple of steps for the front) Then there is another sign that tells you whether to finish right or left.



motherslittlehelper said:


> Did you work on any of the new signs for AKC or had you completed your titles before the new ones went into effect? We are working on those. They are actually kind of fun. We don't have them down smooth, by any means - Augie is doing much better than his handler! I think they are good because the dog's obedience skills have to be even more solid.
> 
> Again, thank you for sharing your experiences. I really enjoy reading about them!


Yes, we had a clinic with one of the best Rally (and Obedience!) judges in the area, where she explained the rule changes, explained the new signs, then we got to practice them all. What SHE didn't like was that in some places, the judges are given a HUGE amount of discretion in terms of how many points to take for errors. Where the rules used to be pretty clear about what was a 1 point, 3 point or 5 point deduction, now the rules just say "1-10 points" or "3-10 points". So if one judge is interpreting a tight leash as a 1 point error for each infraction, you can have a LOT of tight leashes without NQ'ing, while if another judge is counting it as 10 points per infraction, 3 tight leashes on a whole course and you NQ. That's a LOT of variation.

And at least around here, AKC has no judges' trainings scheduled until mid summer at the earliest. I haven't competed under the new rules yet, but I've been told the judging is all over the place. In one instance, (at a very large show) they even had an exercise set up wrong. (one of the new ones that require more than one sign) and a (brave) competitor had to actually take the new rules to the steward to get the course changed. In another case, the judge had a CHAIR set up in the middle of the ring, where she wanted people to leave their leash for the new stay at the end of Excellent.

The good news is that of the people who attended the clinic I went to, nobody had any trouble with any of the signs if they had done either any agility or any APDT. The send to jump caught a few of the people who ONLY do AKC Rally or Obedience, but with just a couple of tries, those dogs were catching on too. I'm excited about the new signs... I think it will make it a little more challenging. Up until now, the difference between Advanced and Excellent was so small that it hardly made a difference. The only "harder" thing in Excellent was the back-up. (which we are STILL working on getting straight!:biggrin1 We have one more RE leg to go, then we can start working on our RAE.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

CarolWCamelo said:


> Karen, I'm just taking a bit of your post to comment on - a bit that upsets me, but maybe I'm not understanding properly.
> 
> You have to issue a cue - and the dog is required to IGNORE THAT CUE? I HATE that! Contradictory stuff! How does that relate to real life, in ANY way? Any enlightenment from you? Thanks!
> 
> ...


Hi Carol, no, the dog does not have to ignore a cue. APDT would never put in a sign like that. They are all about good solid POSITIVE training. That doesn't mean that you can get away with sloppy training, though. This is actually a GOOD sign, I think. It's not easy, especially with a "velcro dog", but it's still good training in impulse control.

You cue the dog to sit, then stay. Then you run away, and the dog must wait for you to call them to heel, at which point you call them front. So there are several challenges. First, the dog must control his impulse to follow when you leave quickly. Then he must listen and come to heel briskly, but not get over-stimulated, so that when you ask for the front, he comes readily to front when you cue him and step back. This is certainly not a "beginner's" exercise, but well within what should be expected of a well trained dog.

The only problem for Kodi is that we hadn't ever practiced it. I actually LOVE the exercise from the standpoint of reinforcing impulse control. Kodi has a hard time holding a stay at distance... he wants to come back to me. So we are constantly working on this in recalls, long stays and even the start line stay in agility. This is just one other way of reinforcing that idea. (in fact, it is VERY much what you want in a start line stay in agility, minus the "front")

The problems we had on Sunday were all my fault... not making sure I knew all the signs, and teaching it to him BEFORE we got to the trial site, then handling things wrong once we were faced with the problem. Once we had NQ'd, because it is APDT, I could have turned to the judge and asked for permission to use cookies to get him around the rest of the course successfully with more reinforcement. She could have, and most likely WOULD have, given me permission. That would have made it a more positive experience for both of us, rather than having things go down hill even further because of the food bowls. Ah well, hind sight is 20/20! At least we were in good company, between the challenges of the "stay and run away" sign, and the lamb lung in the food bowls, there were more than the typical number of NQ's!


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

krandall said:


> Yes, we had a clinic with one of the best Rally (and Obedience!) judges in the area, where she explained the rule changes, explained the new signs, then we got to practice them all. What SHE didn't like was that in some places, the judges are given a HUGE amount of discretion in terms of how many points to take for errors. Where the rules used to be pretty clear about what was a 1 point, 3 point or 5 point deduction, now the rules just say "1-10 points" or "3-10 points". So if one judge is interpreting a tight leash as a 1 point error for each infraction, you can have a LOT of tight leashes without NQ'ing, while if another judge is counting it as 10 points per infraction, 3 tight leashes on a whole course and you NQ. That's a LOT of variation.
> 
> And at least around here, AKC has no judges' trainings scheduled until mid summer at the earliest. I haven't competed under the new rules yet, but I've been told the judging is all over the place. In one instance, (at a very large show) they even had an exercise set up wrong. (one of the new ones that require more than one sign) and a (brave) competitor had to actually take the new rules to the steward to get the course changed. In another case, the judge had a CHAIR set up in the middle of the ring, where she wanted people to leave their leash for the new stay at the end of Excellent.
> 
> The good news is that of the people who attended the clinic I went to, nobody had any trouble with any of the signs if they had done either any agility or any APDT. The send to jump caught a few of the people who ONLY do AKC Rally or Obedience, but with just a couple of tries, those dogs were catching on too. I'm excited about the new signs... I think it will make it a little more challenging. Up until now, the difference between Advanced and Excellent was so small that it hardly made a difference. The only "harder" thing in Excellent was the back-up. (which we are STILL working on getting straight!:biggrin1 We have one more RE leg to go, then we can start working on our RAE.


That doesn't make sense - to add these new signs or make any changes, if the judges have not been trained! And to have so much discretion in the points charged for an infraction, so that they aren't consistent. AKC should have their act together better than that. Does NOT give a good impression of the organization. If the judges were not trained, the new signs should NOT have gone into effect, IMO.

Our trainer made a comment to the effect that she expected some changes to occur in the naming of the signs, I believe. She said there seemed to be quite a bit of confusion with some.

We are still working on a straight back up too, although he is doing so much better than he was.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Good stuff Karen. I know what you mean by the tone of your voice thing. It's a degree of poisoning your cue. I constantly watch myself with this when working with Molly. They definitely can be sensitive. And you did the right thing by going back to some simple reassurance type training. Yep this is where recognizing the calming signals proves invaluable. Their calming signals can be so subtle. Sounds like you're doing great though, and enjoying it is the key. So long as we learn from our little mistakes , that's what it's all about. CONGRATULATIONS on your progress so far. Have fun.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

motherslittlehelper said:


> That doesn't make sense - to add these new signs or make any changes, if the judges have not been trained! And to have so much discretion in the points charged for an infraction, so that they aren't consistent. AKC should have their act together better than that. Does NOT give a good impression of the organization. If the judges were not trained, the new signs should NOT have gone into effect, IMO.
> 
> Our trainer made a comment to the effect that she expected some changes to occur in the naming of the signs, I believe. She said there seemed to be quite a bit of confusion with some.


I haven't checked lately, but the last time I looked, we were still running on "draft rules!"



motherslittlehelper said:


> We are still working on a straight back up too, although he is doing so much better than he was.


We're down to the point that with just a thin metal yard stick on the floor for him to feel, he'll stay straight. But he only makes about half way before he gets really crooked. But then, our little dogs have (comparatively) MUCH farther to back to stay with us for 3 steps than a big dog does.


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

krandall said:


> I haven't checked lately, but the last time I looked, we were still running on "draft rules!"


 I am not sure what you mean?


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## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

I think you are right about the fierce voice,nothing throws Dizzie and Nellie more than if they are spoken to in a raised voice,but it happens some times!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

motherslittlehelper said:


> I am not sure what you mean?


Last time I looked, the Rally rules on the AKC site still said "Draft". But I just checked today, and they have taken the "draft" off. So theya re now the "official" rule!:biggrin1:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

clare said:


> I think you are right about the fierce voice,nothing throws Dizzie and Nellie more than if they are spoken to in a raised voice,but it happens some times!


I certainly didn't say it with a "fierce" voice, though... that in itself can get you NQ'd in APDT Rally. It wasn't even really loud. I just said it more firmly than I normally give a cue, because he normally needs only the quietest of cues. I just wanted to make sure my voice cue took precedence over my body language, since it is instinctive for the dog to want to run forward with you.

But, as Dave said about Molly, Kodi is a very "soft" dog from a training perspective. He is easily discouraged if he thinks he has done something wrong.


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

Kodi is doing so wonderfully!

Jack hates getting things wrong, too. He is reluctant to try something if he isn't sure that that is what I want him to do.


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## Cailleach (Jan 30, 2010)

So nice to read about you and Kodi doing so well.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Yay for Kodi and you!


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## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

Oh,Karen I know you wouldn't be really fierce!I just meant as you said, a stronger than usual voice.And I think these Havs[as has been well documented]are very sensitive,and easily discouraged by a raised voice,far more than other breeds,but they learn easily with praise and treats!! I remember telling Dizzie of once and being quite angry[he was only a pup]well he took off and hid,he was so upset,I felt so guilty and ashamed,but other types of dog would have hardly turned a hair,well I learned my lesson,and hardly ever raise my voice to them.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Thanks, ladies!


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