# So, tell me, is this a good breeder??



## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Let's say a person has a top female with an excellent pedigree, all health testing, etc. and decides they likes the idea of having a litter every 2 years or so because they love the breed and love puppies. 
This person researches and finds a top male to breed their female with (with all the good health tests, etc.) 
Lo and behold a litter is born. 
Is this a back yard breeder?
If so, why is this a bad thing?
I'm just curious......no it's not me or anyone I know, just hypothetical. 
Carole
xxoox


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

The purpose of breeding is to better the breed. That's why people show. The judges make the decision if the dog is a good representation of the breed.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Carole- I think I am missing the part you are questioning- I just spent an hour running in circles literally. But you are saying a person is breeeding two top quality havs every 2 years? What is the problem or the red flag you are pointing at? You think they aren't breeding to better the breed?


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

No, sorry if my question is confusing. I'm saying if a "backyard breeder" was breeding because they just like to, but they do everything they can to "better the breed" and certainly do no wrong, is that ok? 
Linda, you say showing is the only way to better the breed? Maybe that is why so many breeders show? Or for some of them is it a way to make more money and advertise?
I have certainly heard of some breeders who show AND run "puppy mills". No one on this forum though.
I guess the question is stupid, but I know what I mean, lol.
Carole


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

hahahaha, sorry I ran Dash in circles on a mini agility course tonight and I ran a friends dog so i might be losing it. Are you saying a breeder has a dog with an excellent pedigree and does all the health testing but doesn't show the dog in conformation?


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## Jennifer Clevenger (Jun 26, 2008)

One thing to keep in mind is that an AKC championship is only the begining. Sure, it is nice to have the championship but most of us who show know there are incorrect dogs who get their championship all the time. The health testing is critical. The breeder should know the standard and have an eye for it. If they don't, they shouldn't breed until they have learned it. I think there are breeders who have no idea what is a good dog. Those are the ones who we speak about being backyard breeders. The ones who don't look to the future of this great breed and do everything within their power to help instead of hurt.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

So if a lot of dogs make their championship, but don't meet the standard, why show? I guess that's what Carol is asking. If the person does all the health tests, both parents are AKC, is it ok to breed but not show, if you have a good eye in conformation? I think that's what Carol is asking.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I should have said, a good breeder will also show in addition to all the required health testing.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

I guess that's it. Does a breeder have to show in order to be considered a good breeder if they do all their homework and do "it right".? In a way isn't that what most consider a back yard breeder?
Trust me, this isn't a real important question, just hypothetical. Like if Linda or Amanda wanted to breed and were extremely conciencious (sp) wouldn't they be considered a good breeder regardless of showing?


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Carole- I know what you are asking now. I will just share my personal thoughts  I also would think why don't they show. I don't think showing is everything but how does one evaluate the dogs and let's be honest, we can all be very biased about our own dogs.

I do know someone with a working breed who doesn't show her dogs in conformation. To be honest, she has tried and her dogs have never gotten a major that I know of. They are VERY different from the dogs in the ring and stick out like a sore thumb. Her dogs have wonderful ability and structure, health testing, however, they are used to herd and she doesn't think the dogs in the breed ring could do it. But she has a breed that historically is bred based on ability. I honestly don't think of her as a BYB but I think she has unique circumstances.

I also know a few breeders that breed to breed in more of the sense you are talking about- they love the dogs and they love having puppies, etc. I will be honest and say in the two cases I am thinking about... what I don't like I think they either lie to themselves, ignore things, or don't see things. One is not a hav breeder but I can look at this dog and tell you with its dip in its back and the way it gaits, it shouldn't be bred. However it is an unusual color for the breed and has a great personality. While she has passed her breed required health testing, she is young. By the way she walks... I wouldn't be shocked if her pups have health problems.

Just some thoughts from the two I can think of- DEFINITELY not saying all breeders are that way etc.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Yeah Amanda, I can see what you are saying. I guess some people are just not into showing. But, they sure should have the ability to have someone from the show world at least give their objective evaluation. Sometimes there are just people who aren't into showing themselves nor do they want to part with their dogs for a professional handler to handle. 
I guess all in all there could be some small time breeders who do everything right but don't show.
Carole


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Carole, before I got into the world of the Havanese, I had no idea why people were so "uppity" with championships, points and all that. I thought of it almost as snobbism, and not at all an indication of healthy dogs or healthy breeding. And I'm sure there are some who fit this category ! :suspicious: 

What I know now, though, is that the purpose of showing is as others have said, that it's the best way to make sure your breeding dogs are to standard. You can be assured that your dog fits because several or many different judges in diff. circumstances 'said so' by the points you were awarded. Now, there are dogs that win championships that aren't healthy when the tests are done, and I'll bet there are plenty that are healthy as oxen, but have no points whatsoever! So then what?? lol I think that when people learn what all this is about, they hopefully look for success in both areas (as well as other things like socialization, etc...) before buying their puppy.

The other thing showing does, in my opinion, is expose you to the world of the breed you are showing. You get invaluable experience, education and mentoring that way and to me, the more of those things you get, the better a breeder you have a potential to be. It takes more than just that of course, but besides the obvious health testing we talk about, there are the things you can't put a value on, the experience itself. 

If Mrs. Smith loves her Havs and does CERF and other tests and they are all clear and she "doesn't believe in the standard or the show circuit" she can produce litters, but what if the dam and sire underweight, long muzzled, wirey haired and antisocial? Like Amanda said, those puppies may not be healthy for long, if at all.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

O.k., I realize I know little about the world of show and of breeding, but if I'm wrong, be gentle. O.k.? :biggrin1:


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## AgilityHav (Aug 20, 2007)

I have been lucky enough to work with several differnt breeders, who have several diffrent breeds. I had a conversation with the breeder I worked for who has Wiemaraners. She and her husband have bred over 300 champions over the 40 years they have been breeding, and their dogs also compete in hunt tests and agility. They have some of the top dogs in the country.

In this conversation, we got to talking about the "types" of breeders. And how all breeders get clumped into groups, especually by "show" people. The groups were as follow: "Puppy mills", "commercial breeders", "backyard breeders", "Hobby breeders", and "'reputable' breeders". We spoke about the general consensis on the definition of each "type" this is the basis:

Puppy mills- Those 'breeders' who will keep up to hundreds of dogs, in diplorable conditions, who will sell to whomever, with no regard what so ever to the health and well-being of their breeding dogs or their puppies. These are the traditional "puppy mills" that everyone knows you dont get a puppy from, yet they are still around.

comercial breeders- these breeders can have dozens of dogs, up to 50+ however their dogs are slightly better treated then tthose from a puppy mill. They get basic vet care, and for the most part are kept clean, flee/parasite free, and in clean facilities. Most of these breeder's have hired kennel help, and are in it soley for the money. A lot of the origonal labradoodle breeders were this type. They will sell to pet stores, but for the most part sell their puppies directly.

Backyard breeders- This is the average family, who has two pet dogs, a girl and a boy(normally of the same breed) and decide to have puppies. Whether its because they want their kids to experiance birth, or they want a puppy that is just like the dogs they have, or what ever. Most of these puppies are either given away to friends/family or are sold through websites and newspapers. The parents and puppies are taken care of, as far as general care goes, but no health testing or anything of that sort is done.

hobby breeders- This is what most of the people on here would be classified as(this is what I consider myself). These are the people that have a relativly small number of breeding dogs(the breeder I was talking to said 1-7ish was a good range to classify) and breed seldomly. Most show their dogs, and they health test for all the reccomended issues in their breed. They keep track of where all their puppies go, and make sure none of their puppies fall into the hands of any of the breeders above. They breed for two reasons, they love their dogs, and they want to improve the breed.

Show breeders- These are the big kennels that last generations and known all over the world(the breeder in this conversation falls in this catagorie). They breed the same way and for the same reason as the hobby breeder, except they generally have more dogs, and often have a kennel type set up(this breeder has a beautiful 20-run indoor/outdoor kennel for the wiems). They normally show every weekend(although most have handlers that do this) and they have kennel help. The best dogs in the country normally come from these kennels, because these breeders have the facilities, know-how, help, and funds to breed the best of the best, and have the best of their best shown to the top of the rankings. There are VERY few of these breeders in Havanese right now...Most of the long standing show dogs(Old English Sheepdogs, the sporting breeds, beagles, Afghans, etc).

I hope that kind of helped your question....It was a very awakining conversation!(you never stop learning at shows)

Some may disagree with this, and thats more than fine, this was just what we deducted from a conversation between myself, this breeder, and a few others.

If anything was unclear, let me know, I will try to clear it up!


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

Natasha- what a fantastic post! Thanks!


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## tuggersmom (Oct 16, 2008)

The real problem with having a pet that your breed is that you have too much of a vested interest in the dog to rationally decide if it is the best dog to further the breed. Even if the dog has a championship and is health tested, the issue in not whether the parent is a good dog, that has already been determined by the Championship and testing. The question that all good breeders need to ask is whether this good dog can pass on these traits to its off spring. If the dog does not produce what it is then it is not furthering the breed and really should not be breed again.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Natasha,

Most of the breeders on this forum would be considered 'hobby breeders'? I thought a hobby breeder was more like: (this is just an example of what I think..lol) An older person who used to breed to standard, but has gotten on in age and no longer has time/energy/money for doing the show circuit and health testing. Instead, they just breed acouple dogs now and then because they do not want to give up breeding all together. and they still love the breed. 

I thought most of the breeders on here would be 'show breeders', regardless of how many dogs they have...??

Or maybe I'm crazy?? lol

Ryan


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## AgilityHav (Aug 20, 2007)

Thats a really good question, and that was one that was brought up when the group of us were discussing this. The way we worked it out(and remeber, this was just our opinions in conversation). A hobby breeder breeds their dogs, to better the breed, as a hobby, they show as a hobby, but most of them have "real lives" kids, careers, etc. The dogs are a hobby the same way sports is for, well, the average sports player. The show breeders are kind of like the profesionals. They live their lives to breed(basically). for example, a breeder I know who I would clasify as a "show breeder" also handles profesionally(not majorly, but she has a good number of clients). Her husband is a Cardiac Sureon, so she never needed to get a "real" job. Her days consist of planning litters, talking with other breeders/owners, and of course taking care of the dogs. Her life is devoted to her breed, and improving it. The breeders like this make a huge dent in each breed, but these days they are few and far between(they were more common in decades past). The hobby breeders(as we classified) are those who have "real lives". Does that clear it up a little? And, *Most* hobby breeders show their dogs, that is part of the hobby. What your describing I would most likely classify as a "backyard breeder". There is a lot of grey area to be sure, this is just kind of a general guidline to help people understand the types of breeders a little better.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

quote: In this conversation, we got to talking about the "types" of breeders. And how all breeders get clumped into groups, especually by "show" people. The groups were as follow: "Puppy mills", "commercial breeders", "backyard breeders", "Hobby breeders", and "'reputable' breeders". We spoke about the general consensis on the definition of each "type" this is the basis:

This is quite true. There are also "showmill" breeders-put up a good front and talk the talk but have multiple litters in cages out back, "ego" breeders-breed and show to put up big numbers in champions produced and points and may also have lots of puppies available, "sideline" breeders-work another job but breed puppies on the side to make some extra money, and probably some others I'm too tired to think of right now.

I don't agree with the point made about leaving it up to Judges to evaluate dogs as suitable breeding stock. If this was the case breeds wouldn't change for the worse to suit what's doing good in the ring. A reputable breeder needs to understand how to evaluate on their own or else they will not be able to breed better dogs than the ones they started with.

Health testing is just the start but has gotten to be sort of a catch phrase. The reputable breeder needs to know and understand the health pedigree of the dogs being bred. Passing a health test does not guarantee that the dog passing the test is not a carrier. The reputable breeder needs to understand genetics too.


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## AgilityHav (Aug 20, 2007)

Well said Tom. Of course there are tons of variations to the examples I used, those are just the "basics". There are a TON of grey areas, thats part of what can make it so hard for a first-time owner to find a great breeder.

I also agree about showing. There are more dogs than I can count that finish, and pass their health tests, but who I personally would never breed...JMO


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Natasha, Tom, thanks so much for your valuable input. I agree, Tom, that a good breeder must be able to evaluate for themselves what good conformation is. Also they must know the genetic history and they must not keep breeding a dog that doesn't produce quality puppies. I'm sure it takes a lot of experience and learning to accomplish this and unfortunately many breeders do not take the time.
I know of a BIG breeder who has way too many dogs and they live in cages with food thrown in once a day. They are "champions". To me they are puppy mills!
I have also heard of a lot of champions that are politically motivated while much better dogs are left out.
Natasha, buy your definition I guess the hypothetical breeder I was talking about would be a hobby breeder not a backyard breeder.
It is all very interesting and certainly more complicated than we all realize. I applaud those who breed for true betterment of the breed.
Carole


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## Breanna (Jan 21, 2009)

For me, as a pet owner, the question would be - should I buy my puppy from this person?

In the original example, as long as I got to meet the parents and saw that they were what I was looking for in a Havanese (or whatever breed), then I would be happy to have a puppy from them. The health and temperament are the important things in a pet; I don't think the rest matters much unless you're looking to buy a breeding dog yourself.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Breanna, of course, this is going to come across biased because I am a breeder, but before I ever got into breeding I still would not have bought from someone like this person for these reasons: If a breeder doesn't show their dogs, in my opinion, they do not care so much about the physical appearance of the dog continuing to look like the Havanese standard says it should. If a breeder doesn't health test their dog according to the parent club's recommendations (which have become even more extensive than the CHIC number requirements), are they willing to rule out hereditary ailments? If a breeder is willing to let one of their dogs end up in the hands of a stranger, do they really care about their dogs? If they don't care about where their dogs end up, how do they raise their puppies? Are they socialized? Do they only breed dogs with the correct Havanese temperament, which is one of the joys and purposes that so many people choose Havanese?

Of course, I would love to see every dog end up in a nice home, but if you really don't care about the background & beginning of the dog, then check out the local shelters and HRI. Those dogs need homes too. I would not want to support a breeder that doesn't do all they can for their dogs and wants to better the breed. 

Lastly, if your puppy ends up with a need for surgery before it is even two years old that is going to cost you $1500, will that breeder stand behind the puppy and pay for the surgery? (Not just offering an exchange because we all know that very few people will ever return a dog.) Ask a tough question like this and see if they put it in writing in their contracts.

Editing out a specific comment because I confused this topic with another current one on the forum. Since I posted this response in the wrong topic, I'll leave the questions that I posted and you can see if it fits your particular breeder.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I didn't get to read this entire thread, so I hope I don't repeat anything. The only thing that I thought wasn't fair when I was showing, was it seemed political. In the beginning, judges told me Scudder was a great dog and to keep it up. I kept getting reserve! Some people told me it was because the judges didn't know me. It took awhile, but as he got to be about 8 month old, I finally started beating the handlers. 
One day, I overheard the superintendent whispering to the judge, " That dog is number 1 in the country." Guess who got best in breed that day? I started asking around and found out this person always wins because of certain political reasons. That part of showing is unfair. Maybe there's a breeder that wants to do the right things, showing health testing etc, but gets frustrated with the politics. I do not agree with this, but can see how this can happen. I also found some people to be very unfriendly and caddy in the ring. I loved showing but hated this aspect of it. On the other hand, I did meet some very nice people


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

It's nice to hear an explanation, great info for those of us who are so new to the dog world. 

Thanks for all of the information!!!


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I like the hobby breeders myself. The breeders that are consumed with winning shows and produce way to many puppies, are almost as bad as a mill. I feel bad for puppies left in cages. They might do all the health testing but those poor dogs. I also feel bad for some of the show dogs that don't have a life until they champion or special. I know with me, Scudder would get stressed out in the ring. He hated it. I couldn't keep showing him knowing he stressed over it. He likes being a regular guy.


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## Janizona (Oct 17, 2006)

There is so much more to being a breeder than just finding the top dog to breed to. Participating in dog shows teaches (hopefully) breeders to have an eye for dogs. You should not only be showing your own dog to it's championship (or hiring a handler if you can't or don't want to show) but should be watching other breeds in the ring in order to educate yourself in general about dogs structure and movement. Attending seminars on structure so you know the faults in your own bitch so you know what to look for to improve on her is critical. You must study the breed standard and not just be able to recite it but to understand it! Do you know what level planes are? How about the zygomatic arch? Short loin? Reach and drive? There are lots of breeders out there that don't understand structure in general which is important if you want to be a breeder. Then there are breeding seminars, reproduction seminars, handling seminars....a GOOD breeder never stops trying to learn.

In addition are you ready to accept personal responsibility for each of those pups for 15 years? Are you financially able to refund the money paid if needed? To take back the dog at any time during its lifetime should the owner not be able to keep it? If the dog has health issues are you prepared to care for the dog by any means necessary?

In the last year I've had 6 dogs returned for various reasons and boy have we had a full house! One of the dogs has SA and will never be able to leave but luckily I was able to find homes for the other 5. I have another owner that wants me to find a home for her 9 year old girl. She hasn't returned her to me (yet) but it's possible I will end up caring for that girl as not many folks want to adopt an older dog.

By the way the "you" is generic in this hypothetical question of yours. =) 

So after that long reply - no just because the owner doesn't show her dog it doesn't mean she's a BYB but I'd have to ask WHY the dog isn't being shown. If someone can't afford to hire a handler they surely can't afford to raise a litter of pups. 

JMO


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

Interesting thread with great information. Thanks for the input - very educational.


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

I love this kind of thread! I appreciate the knowledge being shared and the opinions expressed. Being a teacher, I'm addicted to learning. Being a hav owner, I'm addicted to the breed :biggrin1: This thread totally "hits the mark" for me!

Thanks to all who've shared.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Janet, I wish you would respond more.  Thank you!


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Maybe my question is little on the naive side. I was seriously just asking about a person who wants to have a litter every year or so for all the right reasons. BUT, they just don't want to part with their dog so it can be with a handler nor do they want to show themselves. They just want to study hard and do all the right things to better the breed and have a litter for their own pleasure and satisfaction and challenge of doing it right.
Personally I can see why someone might not want to get involved with the show world on many levels.
It didn't occur to me that this person needs to be ready to take responsibility for these puppies for life. That's a good point.
I guess I would still consider this a very caring and concerned hobby breeder. Would I buy from them?? Hmm, If I thought I knew enough to really do diligent investigation on their breeding I guess I would. If I was a novice, I think it would be better not to.
That being said, my Lulu who I bought from a BIG time breeder with lots of champions I NOW know has poor linage on her Sire side. So, here I was a complete novice buying from a big breeder who did poor breeding. Vinny, on the other hand, came from a "hobby" breeder and my "Learning" has shown me that his breeding was really good. (Although he is large)
Isn't hindsight fun!?
I love all the input on this thread. It teaches us all!!!
Carole


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## Janizona (Oct 17, 2006)

Just had to make a quick comment about having your dog shown by a handler. You DON'T have to part with your dog. If I'm not showing my dog for some reason, I can meet my handler at the ring and she takes him/her in. My dog comes home with me at the end of the day. Sometimes I hand off the dog on a Friday so the handler can do the grooming etc and I pick my dog back up on Sunday when it's all over. My dogs A D O R E my handler and hardly look back when I leave. LOL She's the one with all the cookies!


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Carole, I wanted to make one last comment in regard to conformation and knowing your own dogs. I have had purebred dogs my whole life (with the exception of one year). I have attended every structure & movement seminar that I have been able to find and I own almost every book & DVD out there on structure & movement and canine evaluation. Still, I am constantly learning and consider myself to be a novice in this area. If I were to put my trust in confidence in what I know, like and want in my dogs, they would begin to take on their own look just because I am biased towards what I want. I surround myself with breeders that I respect and trust to give me feedback. I let other _respected_ breeders evaluate my dogs in person and via photos, taking their comments into consideration. I also talk to judges and get their opinions as well. Some opinions have more weight than others for me, but I do contemplate the information so I can learn and add to to my knowledge base. If a person doesn't show or surround themselves with people who can give truthful critiques, how can they truly grow in how to produce better dogs? Sure, it may be possible, but I don't think it is wise to limit yourself like that.

Besides, you have probably heard of kennel blindness. This is when a breeder cannot see the faults in their own dogs or believes they always have whole litters of show potentials. There is a reason it is good to avoid this syndrome. It is too easy to succumb to it.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Kimberly, that just makes too much sense! :biggrin1: 
Thanks! :brick:
Carole


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Leslie said:


> I love this kind of thread! I appreciate the knowledge being shared and the opinions expressed. Being a teacher, I'm addicted to learning. Being a hav owner, I'm addicted to the breed :biggrin1: This thread totally "hits the mark" for me!
> 
> Thanks to all who've shared.


Yup. What she said! :biggrin1: I love this forum!!! :whoo:


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

I'm glad everyone feels comfortable enough to be honest, I've learned so much here.


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

I just want to add that there is no 'perfect' breeder. Every breeder that I know has made decisions in their breeding program that someone else is not going to 'agree' with. Whether it's breeding a dog that hasn't finished their championship, or breeding back to back, or skipping a heat, etc etc etc.... So what one person might think is a "must do" for breeders, another breeder might think differently- does that make it right or wrong? Who knows. But I think it's up to each individual breeder to make their own choices for their breeding program. And let each puppy buyer decide where they are most comfortable getting their puppy from.
Just my .02!


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## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

This is a very interesting and informative thread. I'm still on the fence on whether or not I want to make the move to "breeder". It is a great responsibility, and not for the weak at heart. 

I think that having a Championship is a "tool", to help make an informed decision. A good handler can get a championship on almost any dog. I wouldn't make the decision to breed a dog based on having a championship, also I would not dismiss a dog because it doesn't have a Ch. There maybe some really good reasons for a dog not to finish. I knew of a great Lab that never finished because of an injury to her ear. She produced some great dogs, but she was not a champion.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

dboudreau said:


> This is a very interesting and informative thread. I'm still on the fence on whether or not I want to make the move to "breeder". It is a great responsibility, and not for the weak at heart.
> 
> I think that having a Championship is a "tool", to help make an informed decision. A good handler can get a championship on almost any dog. I wouldn't make the decision to breed a dog based on having a championship, also I would not dismiss a dog because it doesn't have a Ch. There maybe some really good reasons for a dog not to finish. I knew of a great Lab that never finished because of an injury to her ear. She produced some great dogs, but she was not a champion.


Debbie, you sound like you would be a very sensible, solid breeder. Good luck if you decide to go that route.

I know that we all feel so lucky to be on THIS forum with such great breeders to guide us. Seriously, you breeders who give us your input are invaluable. I only wish I had joined this forum before we bought our havs. I could never part with my furkids, never, ever, but would I have taken a different road had I had the knowledge you guys have given me, you bet!
Carole
xxoox


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## Lilysplash I (Jul 19, 2007)

What's SA?


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

SA - Sebaceous adenitis, which is a hereditary skin disease. You can read more about it on OFA's site too: http://www.offa.org/sageninfo.html


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Very interesting thread. I love this particular thread because it really teaches and gives insight. Thank you to all who have posted.:thumb:


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Julie~ I LOVE your new avatar pic! I think red is Quincy's color :biggrin1:

:focus:


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Julie,
You and Quincy are too much! I love that picture of him!


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Havtahava said:


> Carole, I wanted to make one last comment in regard to conformation and knowing your own dogs. I have had purebred dogs my whole life (with the exception of one year). I have attended every structure & movement seminar that I have been able to find and I own almost every book & DVD out there on structure & movement and canine evaluation. Still, I am constantly learning and consider myself to be a novice in this area. If I were to put my trust in confidence in what I know, like and want in my dogs, they would begin to take on their own look just because I am biased towards what I want. I surround myself with breeders that I respect and trust to give me feedback. I let other _respected_ breeders evaluate my dogs in person and via photos, taking their comments into consideration. I also talk to judges and get their opinions as well. Some opinions have more weight than others for me, but I do contemplate the information so I can learn and add to to my knowledge base. If a person doesn't show or surround themselves with people who can give truthful critiques, how can they truly grow in how to produce better dogs? Sure, it may be possible, but I don't think it is wise to limit yourself like that.
> 
> Besides, you have probably heard of kennel blindness. This is when a breeder cannot see the faults in their own dogs or believes they always have whole litters of show potentials. There is a reason it is good to avoid this syndrome. It is too easy to succumb to it.


Kimberly,
This is so funny and true. When I was buying Fred, I talked to a really nice lady that had a liter of 4 pups. I didn't buy from her because she wanted to find show homes for all of them. I thought maybe she had this blindness you speak of. She was a lovely person and was willing to teach me the ropes and fly out for the birth of the pups!!! She ended up selling all the pups to show homes and they all became Champions! They were all owner handled too! I think one of the pups went really far and won something at the Havanese Speciality. 
__________________


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

Lilysplash I said:


> What's SA?


Sometimes people say SA for Separation anxiety, but in this case I believe she mean sebaceous adenitis which is a skin and coat problem. http://www.offa.org/sageninfo.html

edited to say oops! Too late! I guess I missed seeing there was another page!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Another point not brought up on this thread is the breeder's training of the puppy-specifically potty training. This breed has the unfortunate reputation of being hard to house train. This is as important a point as the health. The number one reason that any dog is turned over to rescue or worse is for house training issues.

Most people don't realize that the conditions puppies go through in their first few weeks determines their future house training ability. If they are raised on grills or grates and can just let it fly any kind of way or if they get used to fouled bedding then their future prospects for being easy to house train are very slim.

The responsible breeder needs to provide potty trained puppies. These puppies are very intelligent and EASY to train. Like any training though, the trainer-in this case the breeder-has to be willing and able to do it.

They have the instinct to not soil their bed to start with and if the responsible breeder nurtures this instinct they then become easy to house train if the breeder stays in touch with inexperienced owners and stays ahead of it. Even sideline breeders don't have the time and availability to keep things as clean as necessary the first few weeks simply because they are gone too much of the time. This is also why puppy mill puppies raised in cages away from close scrutiny are so hard to even impossible to house train.

The last several pups we have kept have never had an accident in the house. The 12 week old boy we have now has free run of our house and has never had an accident. Probably 25% of our new owners do have a couple of accidents but with time spent talking to us about it we can quickly get around it.

This also should be noted as one of the MOST important parts of being a responsible breeder. The babies must not only be healthy, good quality individuals, but must be given the best chance of success in their job as a companion.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

This is a good point Tom. I got Fred's breeders name from the HCA referral list. I don't know why I assumed she started with housebreaking........ 

He took a VERY LONG time to housebreak. I can see where people would give up and that's so sad for the pups.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

VERY good point Tom. After all aren't we all striving to keep dogs from shelters? And the heartache for all dogs and their owners over housetraining could be avoided if they could be started out with the right training. I fear that is probably not high on many breeders lists though.
Carole


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Tom, I agree with you and I'm always happy to read about how some breeders really do take this seriously so as to start off the puppy's life on a good path. It is incredibly helpful to the new puppy owner, but in the end, it means a happy, long life with their new Hav.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

mellowbo said:


> After all aren't we all striving to keep dogs from shelters?


And along that line, all breeders should forbid that their dogs ever end up in a shelter in the contract. A good breeder is responsible for that dog for life!


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## Janizona (Oct 17, 2006)

Lilysplash I said:


> What's SA?


Sorry for the delay! I have a page on SA because there is SO little out there on this disease.

http://www.janizonahavanese.com/SA.html


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## Janizona (Oct 17, 2006)

Oh boy is potty training important!! Its so easy to do when they are little as it's natural. I bet we all smile as that 3 week old pup toddles over to the pad to go potty. That always puts a grin on my face.

I bought a bitch from overseas and I'm not sure how she was raised but she never did get the potty training thing. And not to brag but I've been pretty successful thru the years with my dogs and pups. This girl could NOT be trained. I was at my wits end and hired a trainer to work with her. She went to "boot camp" and lived with the trainer. She was tied to her so she couldn't wander off to potty (I had already tried this) and she taught her some very cool tricks and obedience. After 3 weeks she came home and we continued working on the training. Eventually I couldn't keep her tied to me and she was released. Immediately she went back to peeing on her favorite things which were blankets, pillows and the couch! I literally had to throw away the couch and buy a leather one. Again I was at my wits end so I called the trainer and she offered to take her and give her a permanent home so I spayed her and let her go. I don't know what I would have done if the trainer hadn't fallen in love with her and wanted her. I've never seen anything like this before but she obviously had a lack of potty training as a puppy.


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