# Too much protein??



## Alcibides (Feb 14, 2012)

Been struggling to find the right food and amount for my Hav Lucky, two years old now and 24 pounds. Finally have a great solution with ORIJEN adult dog food which he eats in small amounts (relatively-1 cup and a quarter a day) and which he loves. Have felt so good about this selection only to read on line that the high level of protein in the food may cause liver damage especially in small dogs. Is this alarmist? Do any of you use Orijen and have you had any trouble? Anybody know about this protein thing? Any input will be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Sabine ...There is no such thing as "too much protein".
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=protein_myth
Case in point, the NRC publication gives a "safe upper limit" for things like fat, vitamin A, vitamin D and some other nutrients, but there is none listed for protein. Dogs are carnivorous animals with dentition and a digestive tract that are best suited for eating meat, fat and bone. Carbohydrates can be digested, but only if they are fed in a usable form - which means with their plant cell walls broken down already. Hand a dog a sheaf of grain or a sack of raw potatoes and he couldn't get much nutrition out of that. Cook them and they become digestible. What are examples when a dog should not have too much protein. ? There are very few actually.

One thing that comes to mind immediately is a dog where kidney failure has progressed to the point where the dog is actually uremic, generally meaning lab work shows BUN over 80 mg/dl and creatinine over 4.0 mg/dl. This is where it actually makes sense to restrict protein to reduce the work load of the kidneys. I have attached a file that you might find of interest in regards to protein and kidney disease - mainly because most vets still follow long outdated information. 
The other is chronic pancreatitis, because it's not only the fat content of the diet that stimulates the pancreas, protein also does

A fable that has finally been debunked is the one that states that dogs acquire kidney problems from eating too much protein. This fable was repeated so often that it became self-sustaining and axiomatic. Finally, experts in animal nutrition have buried this myth. It simply is not true that high protein levels in dog food cause kidney problems. "The dog can digest large amounts of proteins, especially those of animal origin" stated Prof. Dominique Grandjean DVM, Ph.D., at the Fourth Annual International Sled Dog Veterinary Medical Association Symposium (page 53 of 1997 PROCEEDINGS).

http://www.petmd.com/dog/nutrition/evr_dg_focusing_on_protein_in_the_diet#.Us3YDI2A3IU


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

The following statements are quoted from CANINE AND FELINE NUTRITION 
by Case, Carey and Hirakawa,
Published by C.V.Mosby, 1995

"The protein requirement for the cat is significantly higher than that of the dog." (page 131) 
"There is no conclusive evidence showing that protein intake actually contributes to the development of kidney dysfunction in healthy animals." (page 117) 
"It is recommended that the protein in the diet of geriatric dogs should not be restricted simply because of old age." (page 256) 
"In general, high-quality animal source proteins provide superior amino acid balances for companion animals, compared with the amino acid balances that are supplied by grain proteins." (page 174) 

Current, and even ignored thirty-year-old research by Dr. David S. Kronfeld and others, spells out the evolutionary need for canines to have sources of high quality protein such as is found in animal tissues. Meat (muscle tissue), organ tissues such as liver, kidneys, spleen, and heart are particularly rich in the complex molecules called Amino Acids that end up as protein. There are 22 Amino Acids involved with the dog’s metabolism and of these the dog requires 10 different Amino Acids to be supplied by the diet. The other 12 required Amino Acids can be manufactured internally in the dog’s liver. Grains tend to be better sources ofcarbohydrate, a quick source of energy. Animal-derived tissues are more easily digestible and have a more complete array of Amino Acids than do grains. Meats and meat by-products (meat by-products are blood and organ tissues and do not include hide, hair, hooves and teeth) are exceptionally high quality protein sources for dogs. (That’s right! Meat by-products are excellent sources of nourishment for dogs. By-products do not contain floor sweepings, old flea collars, gasoline or machine parts. We all need to have an open mind and take a look at what by-products really are.)

“But too much protein is bad, right?” you ask. Do your own research and poll half a dozen nutrition specialists (not the guy who runs the local pet shop) and here is what you will find: There is no general agreement among expert nutritionists regarding what constitutes “too much” protein in the dog’s diet. Research shows that dogs have a high capacity for digesting and utilizing diets containing more than thirty percent protein on a dry weight basis. (Dry weight basis means the food with no moisture present. Dry dog food in a bag usually has 10 percent moisture and canned food has about 74 percent moisture.) If left to catch and consume prey to survive, as wild canines do every day, dogs’ diets would be even higher in protein than what is generally available commercially.

Think about it... do you ever see a stray dog grazing in a corn or bean field to allay its hunger? Nature has created a meat-eating machine in the dog and every day in practice I see the health benefits displayed by the feeding of meat-based diets. Dogs fed poor quality diets look and feel great only if their caretakers also feed table scraps such as chicken, meat, eggs, cottage cheese and other “left-overs.” Meat such as chicken, poultry, beef or fish should be the first ingredient listed in any dog food you judge to be “the best”.

“But what about the older pet?” you might ask. “I’ve always been told that high protein diets are bad for an older dog's kidneys; even my veterinarian says so.” What researchers have proven is this: In dogs that actually have kidney damage or dysfunction (regardless of their age) and that have a BUN level greater than 75, restricted protein intake may be beneficial but not because of any adverse impact on the kidneys. The protein these impaired dogs ingest should be of high quality such as is derived from eggs, poultry, and meat. On the other hand, high protein levels in a food DO NOT cause kidney damage in the normal, healthy dog or cat! 

So what does that mean for the older dog? It means that you should not restrict feeding high quality protein to older dogs just because they are older. There is even some valid research that indicates older dogs may need a higher percentage of protein in their diets than they required during middle age. This shouldn’t be a surprise to us because dogs evolved through the ages as meat eaters. The grain-based diets for dogs did not even exist until seventy years ago when we humans demanded the convenience, simplicity and economy of dog food in a bag.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

http://files.championpetfoods.com/Myths_of_High_Protein.pdf


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## Alcibides (Feb 14, 2012)

*Wow Thank you Dave*

Good grief. Talk about allaying fears. Such great information in your head and at your finger tips. I thank you thank you and will relax about this wonderful food that seems to be so well suited to Lucky. It makes so much sense when you think about it that when a dog food gets 165 five star ratings and one one star, that the one star is an exception (and not the one that proves the rule). But when that doubter says her dog went into renal failure because of the food the others are raving about, you worry. Especially when the dog is your dog's size or breed BUT it makes so much sense that that reporter may be misinformed and it wasn't the dog food that killed her dog after all. This was so helpful. Thank you thank you and god bless.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Alcibides said:


> Good grief. Talk about allaying fears. Such great information in your head and at your finger tips. I thank you thank you and will relax about this wonderful food that seems to be so well suited to Lucky. It makes so much sense when you think about it that when a dog food gets 165 five star ratings and one one star, that the one star is an exception (and not the one that proves the rule). But when that doubter says her dog went into renal failure because of the food the others are raving about, you worry. Especially when the dog is your dog's size or breed BUT it makes so much sense that that reporter may be misinformed and it wasn't the dog food that killed her dog after all. This was so helpful. Thank you thank you and god bless.


don't believe all you read about five star dog foods. http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=dog_food_reviews


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Is he gaining weight on Orijens? My guys blew up like little blimps on that food. I wasn't even feeding close to what you are feeding.

It's a great food though


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## Alcibides (Feb 14, 2012)

lfung5 said:


> Is he gaining weight on Orijens? My guys blew up like little blimps on that food. I wasn't even feeding close to what you are feeding.
> 
> It's a great food though


I think/hope he may be losing a little weight (which the Vet said he needed to) but I was feeding him piles of food before (a combination of wellness wet and dry and shredded boiled chicken (topped with probiotics) about two cups in all daily-but he didn't eat much or only occasionally finished a meal). It feels so little to give him a little over a half a cup twice a day (to make 1 and a quarter cup in all which is what they recommend for 22 pounds). I've eliminated snacks but have ordered some of Orijin 5 calorie treats which I thought I might add daily. It's great and entirely novel to see him finishing his meals. And he seems more active and adorable than ever.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Ok, he is a big Hav. It sounded like a lot of food, especially since Orjens is pretty high in calories. My guys are 15 and 16 lbs and when they were eating dry, only got 1/2 cup total a day with a Tablespoon of boiled chicken added to each meal. They would also get some small treats. Now they are getting about 300-325 calories in food per day, plus small treats. They get a bone on occasion. 

Make sure you can easily feel his ribs. he should also have a waist from above and a tuck up from the side. He looks good from the pictures I can see!!


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## bigbadboss101 (Mar 29, 2014)

That is a big dog. May be go from Orijen to Acana, or reduce the amount? We are leaning toward going slightly less protein with Acana puppy.


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## Alcibides (Feb 14, 2012)

davetgabby said:


> don't believe all you read about five star dog foods. http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=dog_food_reviews


Good grief. I give up. Orijen in the one food that he is continuously excited to eat (others-even wet food- have intrigued at the start but did not hold interest for him) and seems to meet criteria of goodness and now that I know (thanks to you) that too much protein is a myth, I'm staying with it and assuming it's better or as good as most alternatives. You will be horrified to know that the 5 star ratings I was citing were from customers on Amazon whose basis of judgment were mostly whether the dog liked it or not...or how expensive etc. There is that one site pet food advisor? that raved on. Thanks so much for all the help and input.


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## Alcibides (Feb 14, 2012)

*oops what i meant was...*



Alcibides said:


> Good grief. I give up. Orijen in the one food that he is continuously excited to eat (others-even wet food- have intrigued at the start but did not hold interest for him) and seems to meet criteria of goodness and now that I know (thanks to you) that too much protein is a myth, I'm staying with it and assuming it's better or as good as most alternatives. You will be horrified to know that the 5 star ratings I was citing were from customers on Amazon whose basis of judgment were mostly whether the dog liked it or not...or how expensive etc. There is that one site pet food advisor? that raved on. Thanks so much for all the help and input.


http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/orijen-dog-food-adult/


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