# dogs 101-Not Havanese



## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

I know that "designer" breeds are not thought of too favorably here, but I wanted to mention that the November 28 Dogs 101 show features some of the different designer breeds. My friend John's Cavachon, Sophie, will be on the show.

A Cavachon is a cross of a Cavalier King Charles and a Bichon, 2 great breeds.

Sophie is terrific and I would have considered getting a Cavachon if I hadn't discovered the Havanese.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I known they are frowned upon, but I can't deny how cute they can be!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I think there are a lot of pros and cons to some of the designer breeds. It still comes down to good breeders who are looking to better their chosen breed. I think one of the big pros are many of the health issues. they say that mutts in general are healthier than pure breed dogs. The con personally for me is that I am allergic to most every other dog but havanese. There are some cockapoos and labrodoodles that I am not too badly allergic too and others that I am. So I wanted to know how the genes got split. I'm gonna go look up cavachon...bet it looks like a havanese. LOL


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

ok, sorry to hijack...but I was looking up Cavachon (yes very very cute) and look at this Beautiful gold chocolate Neezer puppy on the same sight!

http://www.cavachonpups.com/havanesefemalesforsale.html

NO! MISSY NO!

sorry, there is just something about our Neezers eyes that get me more than any other dog!


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I am not a fan and mainly because they mix together two bad specimens of each breed and don't health test cause most just are in it to make money. People just fall in love with cute little furballs- not many puppies are ugly but some develop into ugly dogs. I have a few friends who have Cockapoos. One friend that is the only breed she has ever owned and she has been lucky. There is one cockapoo out there that I think is gorgeous but both her parents are champions, health tested and both really nice dogs. She turned out gorgeous too. She was an accident but I would take her in a heart beat 

I also think the thing about mutts living longer may be attributed to people putting downs the ones that have health problems or the pound doing it for them. If a mutt comes into the pound and it has patella issues, hip issues, cataracts, etc. it is usually put down immediately because of the volume of dogs coming in. I think this happens a lot more than we realize. My neighbor has a mutt lab and newfy maybe and just watching this dog try to walk pains me. I thought she was 15 years old and I found out she is turning 7 (just a little younger than Belle!)

Missy- See, I think that puppy looks sad  Look at it's eyes, tail tucked, and shoulders in all the pictures... probably first time out of a cage. Also looks like it has a bad bite.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

awww Amanda, I don't think she looks sad. I agree with much of what you say. And I do think many are in it to make a profit. (and of course I have no clue about this breeder I posted) But I do know two people who got cockapoo's from different breeders and both have amazing dogs. One person I know better than the other, and he really researched cockapoos and how they are breed and the right way and the wrong way... And his breeder seemed to be like our beloved breeders wanting to further the cockapoo breed. So I come back to saying it is the same... it all comes down to the particular breeder.


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes, I agree about the breeders. Sophie, the Cavachon was bred by someone who is very particular about the health of the parents.
She also raises them in the way we all would like puppies to be, socialized, etc.

I think they do look a bit like Havanese!


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## margaretandluigi (Mar 12, 2008)

Sorry, but I think that the best line I ever heard was "If you want the best of two breeds, buy two dogs."


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Missy said:


> also a great article on this site about Hybrids
> 
> http://www.cavachonpups.com/abouthybrids.html


There's a lot of mis-information in that article, disguised as "knowlege" of genetics.

She writes:

" Some detractors of hybridization argue that pure breeds produce a high degree of predictability in the offspring, which is generally true. However, it is just as true when you hybridize two good examples of pure breeds in an F1 generation. (an F1 hybrid is the direct offspring of two parents of different pure breeds. In the F1 generation, 50% of the DNA comes from Mom and 50% from Dad by definition). Anything other than an F1 hybrid will carry less predictablilty, because the genetic contribution from either of the pure breeds can vary from 0% to 100% on any given allele, or "trait" such as color or coat-type."

That would be assuming that the two dogs carry 100% different DNA... not possible, because dogs are all dogs. They are all the same species. By definition, both parents will still share MOST of the same genes.

But the biggest reason _I_ know not to buy "designer dogs" is that at least so far, I haven't come across a breeder of crossbreds that breeds dogs in what I consider a responsible manner. (in a loving home, as part of the family) Look around this site more... look at how the dogs are housed. Yes, it looks cleaner than most puppy mills, but those dogs all live in kennels. The puppies are whelped in chain link indoor runs.

Not the kind of situation I'd want my puppy to come from.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

I have nothing against having a mutt... they are also dogs and can be absolutely wonderful. But calling it a "breed" and a "designer dog" is just a smoke screen. It's a mutt. You want to pay $2000 for one, it's your problem, but no way would I do that. I can just walk to the pound, rescue a dog off the street and get the same results.

ETA: I do know that purebreeds are in pounds as well... just making a point.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ama0722 said:


> I also think the thing about mutts living longer may be attributed to people putting downs the ones that have health problems or the pound doing it for them. If a mutt comes into the pound and it has patella issues, hip issues, cataracts, etc. it is usually put down immediately because of the volume of dogs coming in. I think this happens a lot more than we realize. My neighbor has a mutt lab and newfy maybe and just watching this dog try to walk pains me. I thought she was 15 years old and I found out she is turning 7 (just a little younger than Belle!)


That's another thing I meant to mention... There are some genetic problems that just go along with a certain sort of dog... Breed two large breed dogs together, especially two that haven't been carefully screened to avoid it, and you've very likely to have crossbred offspring with hip problems. Breed two little dogs together and you're no less likely than with a purebred little dog to have patella problems.

I think that you DO end up with more hybrid vigor and less health problems when you get into true "Heinz 57" dogs, because they tend to be closer to the original, generic "dog" (look at dogs in developing countries... no matter where you go, they all revert to the same type) But that's a long way from these 1st generation, two breed designer crosses.

I really wish this weren't all true... I think Puggles are one of the cutest dogs I've ever seen. But (aside from the fact that I'm sure I'd be allergic to them<g>) I would never have one, just on principle. There's a reason so many of these crosses end up in pounds... They are bought on whim as adorable puppies and discarded just as cavalierly. (pun intended)


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I agree, I should have stopped before I posted and done some more research on this particular site. I was an irresponsible poster and that is why I edited that part of my post to delete that article. All I am saying, is that I know people who love their hybrid cockapoo's or goldendoodles the same way we love our Havanese. Not just their dogs but the "breed." They collect them like we do our loves. People who are allergic, but don't care for bichons or poodles (and don't know about Havs.) People who want a bigger dog than most non-shedders. People who want the "intelligence" of a Poodle without the look. These are the testements I have heard. Somewhere along the line, wouldn't you guess the Havanese was breed by mixing a bichon with some other dog to give it it's softer coat? There are theories, but no one really knows for sure. 

Again, I irresponsibly posted this woman's site. But I do not think that everyone who breeds a hybrid is a puppy mill. I think there are people who really believe they create better dogs by mixing breeds. I am not promoting puppymills, and as I said earlier, I would never get one because of my allergies... but I don't think they are all bad either.


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

Some people can't afford a Havanese, aren't up to rescuing, and want a cute small shaggy, non-shedding puppy, which you don't often find in the pound. Some of these dogs are healthy, and smart. So there is a market for them.

And I'm sure some of the breeders are responsible!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Hi Missy,

I KNOW you aren't endorsing puppy mills, and I too have met some adorable crosses. As I mentioned I know several Puggles which, to my mind, make a lot more sense than pure bred Pugs who can't vaginally deliver their own pups, and who can't breathe properly. And there are a FEW of these "designer" dogs, where there is an organized group working toward establishing a true breed standard, and recognition with the AKC, such as the Australian Ladbradoodles. But there are ZILLIONS of these dogs around, and I have yet to meet one that didn't either come from Pick-a-Pup or a shelter. Maybe there are responsible breeders out there, but I haven't heard of a puppy coming from one and I'm afraid the puppy mills far out-weigh them in designer puppy production.

If the people you know who love their designer mix are being responsible about improving that mix, and breeding good dogs together to get better dogs, that's great. But since most responsible breeders of purebreds would not allow their stock to be bred to another breed, where does the parent stock come from? How good is the quality of those dogs? 

I guess if there is a REASON for producing a particular type of dog, such as creating a new breed, or in the case of some agility people, to produce the uber-agility dog, AND the dogs are bred, raised and handled in a loving AND responsible way, then I guess there's nothing wrong with it. But I just see SO many of these dogs that come from a KNOWN puppy mill distributor, and then I see all the nice mixed breed dogs languishing in shelters, and it bothers me.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

luv2havs said:


> Some people can't afford a Havanese, aren't up to rescuing, and want a cute small shaggy, non-shedding puppy, which you don't often find in the pound. Some of these dogs are healthy, and smart. So there is a market for them.
> 
> And I'm sure some of the breeders are responsible!


How many do you KNOW that actually have come from responsible breeders? I don't know any... I wish I did.

I'm afraid that this line of reasoning is very similar to "There's a market for pet store puppies and there must be SOME pet stores who don't get their puppies from puppy mills..." There are healthy smart puppies that come from puppy mills too, but it is no fault of the "breeder".


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## highreach (Sep 7, 2009)

Hi all, I found this thread interesting since I'm in the process of trying to find our next family pet. I must admit that while I have two pure bred dogs (not small ones!), I have considered looking into an intended mixed bred dog. I'm trying to find the best small family dog, who is non-shedding, good personality and healthy who will be a good match for my son and I (and our pack in general). I'm still looking into Havanese, but I have also considered a mixed breed. I've looked through some of the rescue sites for poodle mixes, even contacted a couple of folks, but no good match so far. 

I would not buy from a pet store ever, or from a puppy mill - I'd have to see with my own eyes where the puppy was coming from. I think there are some good possibilities out there - you just have to be very careful and aware. I do agree though that there are a lot of good dogs in shelters - and they deserve a chance to find a loving home. Being a responsible dog owner and pet lover if one is considering a mixed breed it seems you should at the very least give the rescue groups and shelters a shot.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

luv2havs said:


> Some people can't afford a Havanese, aren't up to rescuing, and want a cute small shaggy, non-shedding puppy, which you don't often find in the pound. Some of these dogs are healthy, and smart. So there is a market for them.
> 
> And I'm sure some of the breeders are responsible!


The problem is that these designer mutts are no less expensive than a purebred Havanese. In Manhattan, they are asking upwards of $2500 for a havanese. I worked at a no-kill shelter and they do get smaller breeds in, especially now with all the puppy mill raids.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

> Hi all, I found this thread interesting since I'm in the process of trying to find our next family pet. I must admit that while I have two pure bred dogs (not small ones!), I have considered looking into an intended mixed bred dog. I'm trying to find the best small family dog, who is *non-shedding*, good personality and healthy who will be a good match for my son and I (and our pack in general). I'm still looking into Havanese, but I have also considered a mixed breed. I've looked through some of the rescue sites for poodle mixes, even contacted a couple of folks, but no good match so far.


But see, unless you get a dog that is a mix of two non-shedding dogs, there is no way that you will know if your particular puppy will have the shedding or the non-shedding gene until they arrive and possibly until they get a bit older. So you might not get what you want. That's the problem with mixing breeds... you can't have any idea as to what genes you will or will not get. And though you might have some of the favorable poodle genes you're looking for, you can also get some unfavorable one from the other breed as well. Such as people who get labradoodles and expect them to be non-shedding... half of them will be but the other half (and you can't tell until later) will not be. That's just the way it is.



> Some people can't afford a Havanese, aren't up to rescuing, and want a cute small shaggy, non-shedding puppy, which you don't often find in the pound. Some of these dogs are healthy, and smart. So there is a market for them.


Most designer breeds I've seen are the same or more money than a Havanese. I have yet to see a "cheap" one that does NOT come from a puppy mill. Where have you seen one?


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

Well my daughter got her Schnoodle from a woman who was a back yard breeder in a beautiful rural area of Maryland. We saw the set-up and met the mother of the puppies and it seemed to be a pretty good environment. The dog cost $300. 7 years ago and I think they are going for $350. now. He's healthy and happy and generally a good dog.(I don't love the Schauzer energy.) Yes, she was breeding for profit and not bettering any breed, but she did provide non-shedding little dogs for those with allergies, since Schnauzers and Poodles are supposedly hypoallergenic.


The Cavachon and Goldendoodle that are in our dog therapy group were both from breeders in VA. They both have good reputations, according to my friends who own the dogs. The breeder of the Goldendoodle had formerly shown and bred Golden Retrievers and she has been working very hard to produce quality Goldendoodles.
I think they each cost close to $900. They did not come from pet shops. Both friends visited the breeders.
I'm not advocating for designer dogs, but not all come from puppy mills where they are kept in cages and not socialized etc.

I only brought the subject up, since my friend's dog is going to be on Dogs 101 and it seemed like a show some might be interested in.


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## lcy_pt (Aug 17, 2007)

luv2havs said:


> I only brought the subject up, since my friend's dog is going to be on Dogs 101 and it seemed like a show some might be interested in.


Thanks for sharing Nan. Your friend John must be very excited!


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

Our Murray is a hybrid cross. As most of you know, we did not go out to purchase one, rather found him on craig's list. He is a Havanese x Bichon. Would I have preferred a wonderful purebred pup from someone like some of our great breeders like Tom King? Of course. Would I trade Murray for all the tea in China? Heck no....he is ours. We adore him and he adores us. He is smart, housebroke and cute as a button. He gives us unconditional love and is the perfect companion for my housebound dh. What more could I ask for.

Sally~


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

Sally,
Murray is adorable. He looks a little like my Cali!
I am so happy that he lights up your life and that of your DH. You were so lucky to find a dog like that on Craig's list.


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

Thank you, Nan. We are blessed to have him. It was truly one of those right place at the right time situations. I saw the listing on a day I am usually at work and sent an email, shortly after that the listing was flagged and removed! The lady reviewed the responses she had received and liked that I told her all about us and that someone would always be home with him and he came to our home a few days later. It is a perfect match for us.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Sally,

Murray coudn't possibly be cuter. And that's true of a lot of crosses... that isn't the point. And in your case, you rescued an adult. I would NEVER suggest that these dogs aren't just as worthy of a loving home as any others. I just don't think people should encourage breeding them, especially by buying them from pet stores. (which is where the majority come from)


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

Karen, I completely understand where you are coming from. I nearly went ballistic when I found out my son & his fiancee went and bought a pekinese x cavalier king charles spaniel at a nearby pet store. I read them the riot act. :argue: They are normally so frugal too, and then they go and spend $500.00 on this dog....


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