# How to stop puppy mills?



## curly_DC (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi, I have a question and an observation. 

I found this forum during an internet search looking for a breeder of a Havanese. I found a site that had photos of Havanese online, offering to ship a dog. After a few replies on this forum, I educated myself about the breed and made what I felt was the best choice in dog/pet/fur baby for my home by purchasing an older dog from the home of a reputable breeder.

I probably would have tried for a rescue. However, just an observation, some forum members have even commented that rescue dogs tend to go to pet parents who already have a dog in the home, or those who are retired, those who volunteer with the rescue organization, or those who have owned at least one pet. I felt like I would have to complete mounds of paperwork and wait a lengthy amount of time for a rescue Havanese, so I chose to purchase my dog from a breeder I researched and met in their home.

While there is a banner on this forum to stop puppy mills and to support rescue, I've noticed that there is also a great deal of "enabling" in the form of support offered to forum members who purchase their dogs from breeders not meeting the criteria listed in the "red flags". They ship dogs; they return or exchange dogs; they clearly aren't reputable breeders. 

So, my question is, how are we stopping puppy mills when we don't confront forum members when they purchase puppies from these breeders or from a box in a car parking lot? I guess I just don't see how telling someone that their dogs are cute or you like the dog's coloring or you just like pictures is being supportive of stopping puppy mills. 

We pass judgment on each other with comments about how we feed our dogs, how we vaccinate (when sometimes our state laws require it), how we administer meds, how we train our dogs, etc., yet we don't seem to confront the issue of bad breeding. Why?


----------



## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

Michele,



curly_DC said:


> ...So, my question is, how are we stopping puppy mills when *we don't confront forum members when they purchase puppies from these breeders* or from a box in a car parking lot?


I don't think my 'JOB' here is to confront anyone, mind you, I am not shy and most often tell it like it is, but I am not going to judge the decision of anyone that buys a puppy from a "not so reputable breeder". The best we can do is "Educate" the public about making the right decision, ultimately, is up to them what to do.
My own sister purchased her Havanese from the mall store. Why? Because it was a lot less money than buying from a breeder and all she could afford at the time. I explained to her the whole Puppy Mill thing but I can't make decisions for her.



curly_CD said:


> &#8230;I guess I just don't see how telling someone that their dogs are cute or you like the dog's coloring or you just like pictures is being supportive of stopping puppy mills.


Tell me, when a woman marries an ugly as hell man, who can't keep a job and drinks every night until he passes out on the couch and have a kid who doesn't have the Brad Pitt's Looks, but is a cute kid. 
Do you tell the woman, **** Girl, your kid is Fugly! Or do you just admit that is not the kid's fault that his father is a PoS?

Is really not the dog's fault that the owner didn't or couldn't buy a perfect dog, again, insert her the part where we can educate the public but can't force them to make the right decision.



curly_DC said:


> We pass judgment on each other with comments about how we feed our dogs, how we vaccinate (when sometimes our state laws require it), how we administer meds, how we train our dogs, etc., yet we don't seem to confront the issue of bad breeding. Why?


I don't think we pass judgment on how we feed or vaccinate our dogs, I think we each voice our experience and opinions. And when members ask about puppy mills we bring facts to the table.

Keep in mind that most cases that we see here, come to the Forum with a Puppy already, they can't just put the dog in a bag and trash it, at that point is too late to do anything other than educate them for their next decision when it comes to getting a pet.


----------



## rokipiki (Oct 15, 2010)

Here in my country puppy mills are not such a big problem. es thera are some, but bigger problem is smuggling puppies from other coutries and falsifying pedigrees. Selling dogs and cats in pet shops is ILLEGAL here so ther eis no safe market for puppy mill pups. 
Man I know from dog park took his samoyed puppy from BYB and his motivation was to save that pup's life. She was fitlhy, full of fleas and worms, unvaccinated... Now she is healthy, happy and very beutifull dog with great character. My cousin's poodle is also saved from one back yard. She is great dog. I think we should not discriminate. I would rather take poor naglected pup out from mill or back yard then think about how he/she died in pain and misery!
Sometimes things can go very wrong even with reputable breeders. They might have best intentions but since you are dealing with living beings some bad and unpredictable things can happen. I know the case of a pup born form international multichampion parents with perfect lineages. People paid loads of money for Luna (retriver). By the age of two she was deaf and blind, had epileptic seizures, hip displasia, IBD and tyroid cancer... She died when she was two and half. 
Kennel Club in my country takes a lot of care and the take away licences from some breeders. 
Havanese breed has VERY small and limited genetic pool (from 11 dogs that emigrated from Cuba with their owners). Since demand for hav pups is growing daily we can expect that things could go wrong and that havs worldwide will have more and more genetic diseases. Just ten years ago breed was extremely helathy and with no herditary diseases. Now things are getting worse!


----------



## nlb (Feb 26, 2012)

Excellent response by Zury! 

I will add... why would anyone want to come to this forum if all they are gonna get is abuse for not getting their dog the perfect way? 

Many come here for sharing, learning, and common ground.


----------



## marlowe'sgirl (Jun 17, 2010)

Carefulove said:


> Keep in mind that most cases that we see here, come to the Forum with a Puppy already, they can't just put the dog in a bag and trash it, at that point is too late to do anything other than educate them for their next decision when it comes to getting a pet.


This. Once the puppy is home, there isn't much point in scolding, and most people that got their puppy from less than ideal locations likely weren't reading the forum beforehand. I think almost anyone that reads the forum will take away the fact that a bargain "Havanese" shipped to their door will most likely end up being *more* expensive than a well-bred and well-raised Havanese puppy from a reputable breeder due to possible long term health issues and potentially behavioral issues if the poor guy experienced mistreatment.

I will agree that rescuing a dog can difficult if you do not fit the "ideal" pet home as determined by a specific organization or person reviewing your application (reminded me of this article: http://www.slate.com/articles/life/...a_dog_or_cat_prepare_for_an_inquisition_.html). Clearly, they have good intentions and have seen many ill-suited adopters return dogs after a short time. In my experience, breeders seem to be a bit more flexible. Perhaps because they take more time to get to know prospective pet parents and you're making a significant monetary investment in your pup - so you're serious.

Plus, a breed like the Havanese is, thankfully, not super-popular right now - so there are fewer rescued dogs out there (than say Chihuahua's after that movie) and thus harder to find a rescue in general - regardless of whether you're considered a great fit or not. If you take a look at HRI, there might not be any rescued dogs in your state. That's not a bag thing!


----------



## RitaandRiley (Feb 27, 2012)

You're all right! I think a main purpose of this forum is to help owners and their dogs, regardless of where the dogs were obtained. I really think anyone who is welcomed here and helped here will learn from all of us. I'm sure I have read posts, possibly many of them from people who obtained their first dog in not the best way but went on to learn and do better the next time. If someone is shunned, a learning opportunity is lost.
That being said, it upsets me to see people buy from pet stores. I won't patronize any store that sells puppies. I can't believe there are people that don't know where they actually come from.


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I remember when someone would join the forum and introduce their 'new puppy' and would basically get reemed for unknowingly doing something wrong (a lot of people just don't KNOW that pet stores get their dogs from puppy mills) Heck, I didn't know that. When I grew up, people used to buy dogs on the side of the road, I'm pretty sure my mom found a few of her many, many pets, cats and dogs this way, especially cats..I recall 3 or 4 cats from road vendors, granted..this was back in 1970's-1980's and their was no such thing as Animal Rights Activists back then.

Fast forward to today, and this is just *my* opinion, I think we can help educate people to NOT support them, but personally, I don't see the point of attacking or criticizing the people who've made a mistake and already fallen in love with their dog. Hopefully, if they get dog #2, they will have learned something here about not unknowingly supporting these places I think a lot of the world is just not really aware that getting a dog from a newspaper is doing anything wrong and of course they'd always get upset at the criticizing and leave and never come back.

I think there is a polite way to educate people without making them feel like their dog is inferior, or they have committed a crime, or they aren't welcome here because they didn't get their dog from a reputable breeder. I would like to see everyone get their dog from a reputable breeder, but that is never gonna happen because the only chance we stand with that is to help those who are here looking for a breeder and haven't already found and purchased from another place.

Ya know, I wish there wasn't war...and crime and hunger in this world too and we do what we can do to help those that want the help, but I know you've probably also seen some of us try to steer people away from certain breeders and they completely ignore us and go with the shady one..:frusty: what can you do? ..but hope that we can at least get through to SOME of the people . I think once you start criticizing or offend someone, they shut down and aren't open to what you are trying to communicate..

Kara


----------



## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

Kara,
You are so right. I remember feeling so badly for the folks who would come on here innocently showing pics of their new pups and asking for info. They would get so jumped and attacked and then just run off.
The atmosphere now is much more welcoming to those who have bought puppies from places we know aren't too good.
Hope we keep it that way. All we can do is continue educating people about buying from a reputable breeder.


----------



## curly_DC (Nov 27, 2011)

luv3havs said:


> The atmosphere now is much more welcoming to those who have bought puppies from places we know aren't too good.
> Hope we keep it that way. All we can do is continue educating people about buying from a reputable breeder.


Why don't you post the names of the breeders that you know aren't too good and explain why they aren't reputable breeders?


----------



## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

Michele,

There are threads here that explain what to look for and what to avoid when choosing a breeder.

Why should we list names of who is bad, or for that matter, who is good?

We are all adults here, everyone capable of making their own decisions. The information is there up for grabs, is up to each individual to make an educated decision like you and many other have done.


----------



## curly_DC (Nov 27, 2011)

Carefulove said:


> Michele,
> 
> There are threads here that explain what to look for and what to avoid when choosing a breeder.
> 
> ...


Forum members, especially those with experience, have been very blunt and explicit in listing names of food products they find harmful and not too good for dogs, toys, trainers, etc. so why not breeders? It seems like good breeding is the first place to start to give a dog a healthy life. If there are educated forum members who are aware of breeders that aren't too good, why not call them out and list their names, just like they would dog food or vaccinations?


----------



## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

Meh, I get the feeling we'll go back and forth...I am done here :drama:


----------



## misstray (Feb 6, 2011)

I fail to see how it would be at all helpful to finger point and call out puppy owners. All it would do is chase them away from the site and they'd miss out on all the great information the site has to offer and there is an educational opportunity missed. There are times when I think this does happen as sometimes passion comes across in a way not intended.

As for having lists of "bad breeders", I think this would be dangerous and on terribly shaky legal ground. Without having gone and personally inspected each breeder's facility, etc. it all boils down to conjecture. We have many threads on here discussing specific breeders (usually based on their websites). In a couple of cases the breeder has joined the forum and started threatening legal action, etc. I think it is fine to comment on and give personal opinion based on a website to help point out red-flags people may see (or in some cases experiences a member may have had with that particular breeder) and the poster is free to take the information from that at face value. I think it is quite a different thing to have a list of "bad" breeders.

Plus, sometimes people just don't agree on what a good breeder is. There are many who believe that backyard (raised in home, etc.) breeders are fine and the showing of breeding stock is unnecessary for pet homes and nothing changes their minds on that. Who am I to say those breeders are breeding bad puppies. Chances are they aren't. While I personally chose to go with a breeder who shows, tests, etc. in order to maximize my chances of having a really healthy pup with a great temperament, who am I to judge someone else? For all I know there could be people who would disagree with my choice of breeder.

The best we can hope to do is educate based on information provided here.

I personally don't agree with every training tip, etc. I read on here. I take from here what is useful to me and ignore the rest (or store it in my head to mull over some more).


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

curly_DC said:


> Forum members, especially those with experience, have been very blunt and explicit in listing names of food products they find harmful and not too good for dogs, toys, trainers, etc. so why not breeders? It seems like good breeding is the first place to start to give a dog a healthy life. If there are educated forum members who are aware of breeders that aren't too good, why not call them out and list their names, just like they would dog food or vaccinations?


We definitely HAVE told people to "run the other way" from some breeders, when asked. That is different than having a "black list". I don't think we have ever created a "black list" for anything except substances that are potentially toxic if ingested by a dog.


----------



## curly_DC (Nov 27, 2011)

misstray said:


> I fail to see how it would be at all helpful to finger point and call out puppy owners.


Maybe they can return the dog to the breeder, take the breeder to court, and get their money back, putting the breeder out of business?

I'm talking about calling out the breeders, not the puppy owners as consumers. It's just a little confusing as a new pet parent, to see how emotionally charged and critical people can get when it comes to dog food, vaccinations, training, vets, grooming, and yet, not really say too much when it comes to breeders.


----------



## curly_DC (Nov 27, 2011)

krandall said:


> We definitely HAVE told people to "run the other way" from some breeders, when asked. That is different than having a "black list". I don't think we have ever created a "black list" for anything except substances that are potentially toxic if ingested by a dog.


And, yes, I thank you for that when I posted on this forum, and saw "Run!"


----------



## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

curly_DC said:


> Maybe they can return the dog to the breeder, take the breeder to court, and get their money back, putting the breeder out of business?....


Oh, many people have tried, There are threads (in this website) about two breeders (off the top of my head), One that bred a chocolate Hav that ended up with bad legs (not sure if the problem was the breeder or the owner here) and one Holly something that keeps dogs in cement barracks or something like that, this last one was more recently).
The problem is that it will cost them more by the time they are finished in court and at the end, the breeder may just change the kennel name and open a new business. By then, also, the consumer is in love with their dog and want to keep it.

Again, there are also the legal issues. Let me ask you this, would *YOU* be willing to make a list? based on the breeders' websites or the info you gather in the internet? Will you be willing to take that responsibility and possible legal charges against yourself? 
Keep in mind that many breeders just don't keep their websites in tip top shape, but that doesn't mean they are not great breeders.


----------



## Leah00 (Oct 21, 2011)

I second everyone's opinion on educating instead of judging. 
I have a friend who bought a Yorkie puppy from a petstore a couple of years ago. She went in, saw this adorable little pup in the cage, and slapped down $800 to take her home that day. When she told me about it, the first thing I wanted to do is scream at her. Did she not ever see all the news stories about puppy mills??? 
I think one problem is that petstore puppy mills and bad breeders don't advertise themselves as such. It's hard for a lot of people to look at that cute clean puppy and automatically equate it with the 30 second news clip they saw a few months ago.
Anyway, I didn't yell at my friend. I tried to nicely explain that her puppy probably came from a puppy mill and she kind of got this glazed look in her eyes and a little smirk and that was that...until a couple of weeks later when her little Yorkie started having health problems. They have spent a very large amount of money at the vet. Plus, she's going to have to have knee surgery soon. 
After all of that though, she's still the cutest and sweetest Yorkie I've ever seen in my life. 
My friend is now heavily involved in rescue. She has rescued two more dogs and takes in foster cats. She's a great person and has a huge heart for animals. She just made a mistake, paid the price, and educated herself.

Anyway, it's easy to get passionate about this stuff. Hello, I'm the girl that had to be removed from the park at 15 years old for passing out "elephant cruelty" flyers at the circus entrance. Lol.


----------



## curly_DC (Nov 27, 2011)

marlowe'sgirl said:


> This. Once the puppy is home, there isn't much point in scolding, and most people that got their puppy from less than ideal locations likely weren't reading the forum beforehand. I think almost anyone that reads the forum will take away the fact that a bargain "Havanese" shipped to their door will most likely end up being *more* expensive than a well-bred and well-raised Havanese puppy from a reputable breeder due to possible long term health issues and potentially behavioral issues if the poor guy experienced mistreatment.
> 
> I will agree that rescuing a dog can difficult if you do not fit the "ideal" pet home as determined by a specific organization or person reviewing your application (reminded me of this article: http://www.slate.com/articles/life/...a_dog_or_cat_prepare_for_an_inquisition_.html). Clearly, they have good intentions and have seen many ill-suited adopters return dogs after a short time. In my experience, breeders seem to be a bit more flexible. Perhaps because they take more time to get to know prospective pet parents and you're making a significant monetary investment in your pup - so you're serious.
> 
> Plus, a breed like the Havanese is, thankfully, not super-popular right now - so there are fewer rescued dogs out there (than say Chihuahua's after that movie) and thus harder to find a rescue in general - regardless of whether you're considered a great fit or not. If you take a look at HRI, there might not be any rescued dogs in your state. That's not a bag thing!


Just read the article in _Slate_ you posted about pet rescue adoptions. From the article, this quotation stood out: "Unfortunately, a subset of these people who dislike people have become like admissions officers at selective colleges, rejecting applicants who don't fit an ideal template." That's actually kinda funny. I suspected that there are people out there who prefer animals over humans.


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

curly_DC said:


> Why don't you post the names of the breeders that you know aren't too good and explain why they aren't reputable breeders?


I think this may have some legal implications, slander, libel? Its a sticky wicket..


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

curly_DC said:


> I'm talking about calling out the breeders, not the puppy owners as consumers. It's just a little confusing as a new pet parent, to see how emotionally charged and critical people can get when it comes to dog food, vaccinations, training, vets, grooming, and yet, not really say too much when it comes to breeders.


I do understand where you are coming from, I am not going to speak for everyone but I think in general, people are more comfortable criticizing products, services, tangible items and tend to hold back when it comes towards other human beings.

Maybe there should be a list somewhere, that could be passed around via Private message to those who are looking?

I remember a recent thread where someone was asking about ___ breeder and myself, and a few others, told her to run, but she basically ended up just starting another thread and telling us all to buzz off because saving the $200 was more important to her than buying a 'show dog's' puppies  It gets frustrating, I know...

Kara


----------



## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

RitaandRiley said:


> You're all right! I think a main purpose of this forum is to help owners and their dogs, regardless of where the dogs were obtained. I really think anyone who is welcomed here and helped here will learn from all of us. I'm sure I have read posts, possibly many of them from people who obtained their first dog in not the best way but went on to learn and do better the next time. If someone is shunned, a learning opportunity is lost.
> That being said, it upsets me to see people buy from pet stores. I won't patronize any store that sells puppies. I can't believe there are people that don't know where they actually come from.


 That is where it needs to start is educating people. So if no one buys from them I sure hope the puppy's and adults in up in shelters and not killed


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

The best place to stop puppy mills might be on the legislative level...Yes, this is an election year. Do you know where your party stands on animal rights issues? You might want to take a look. I do NOT recommend you choose your party on animal issues only, but you really do need to know where they stand. The state of PA has just spoken loud and clear that they are NOT interested in abolishing puppy mills...
April 25th, 2012. In Pennsylvania, Democratic Governor Rendell pushed for and got strong anti-puppy mill legislation. These new regulations were designed to drive the worst of Pennsylvania's Amish puppy mills out of business. But the new Republican governor, Tom Corbett, has thwarted efforts to use the laws and since his January, 2011, administration began, the regulations have not been enforced. Indeed, they've even been flaunted as in one striking example, the governor's administration allowed the wife of a proven mill to seamlessly take over the business her husband was found guilty of conducting!
(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/24/puppy-mill-law-pennsylvania_n_1450185.html?ref=green).
What does your state do on puppy mill issues? You can find links to all this on AKC...

It is your business to know...Remember, the world is run by those who show up!


----------



## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Flynn, You are so right, it comes down to laws and really the AKC needs to be pro active so that good breeders and new breeders do not get punished for the sins of others. I wish people could "police" themselves but its not working. We all know what a puppy mill is, the problem is in many states we have no law allowing the police to even investigate a breeding operation, it needs to be really bad, often these "mills" that are raided have a trail of complaints over many years, it is very sad. Today there are many rescues that are also ran like puppy mills. 

I think a Black List is a very bad idea, for too many reasons, to list here. All we can do is warn people and help them, steer them, educate them, so they make a good choice. Sometimes no matter what you say people will do as they please and it is their choice. It makes me sad sometimes when people will push a back yard breeder as a great source, because that is where they got their dog and their pup is great. All pups are great even the sick ones or ill breed when we take them home, its the breeders and the condictions that are not great. We have to look at our pets as members of our family and not disposable items that we want now and at a bargain basement price, they are each different and are living intelligent creatures. A suggestion I have for first time buyers or anyone buying a dog in the future; When you first start looking do not let it be personal, when we get emotionally involved it's a slipper slope, look at it like as if you were hiring a business, vet them, then start calling, asking questions, be polite, try to visit. Likeing your Breeder is important but first find out all about their breeding operation, remember the world is populated with many great sales people at all levels.

As for shipping puppies, for me it is not that big of a red flag, it is best to fly them hand carried, but many good breeders who show their dogs, not only at times ship their show dogs across the country, they often ship puppies, not only across the country but at times internationally. When shipping puppies the experience of the breeder is important, time of year, temperment of pup and how it is prepared for the journey. Always as pet owners hand carried is best.


----------



## curly_DC (Nov 27, 2011)

See my post below. Wrong thread.


----------



## curly_DC (Nov 27, 2011)

The Laughing Magpie said:


> As for shipping puppies, for me it is not that big of a red flag, it is best to fly them hand carried, but many good breeders who show their dogs, not only at times ship their show dogs across the country, they often ship puppies, not only across the country but at times internationally. When shipping puppies the experience of the breeder is important, time of year, temperment of pup and how it is prepared for the journey. Always as pet owners hand carried is best.


Please, I'm not arguing with you about shipping puppies. I just wanted to point out that in my own research in purchasing a dog, I learned that having a show dog in the Havanese breed (possibly in any breed) or even having a "CH" in front of the name of the dog, means very little in regard to the health of the dog I was purchasing.

I'm not defending my breeder or my choices. I made the most informed and educated choice based on the information that I had. The reason as a consumer I tended to agree with the Havana Silk crowd, is just simply that they went above and beyond the standards of the HCA with the health of individual dogs, not basing the health of the individual dog I was buying on the dog's pedigree.

I didn't even look at Sergio's pedigree certificate or his lineage until his birthday, nearly 2 months after I had him. I wasn't really interested in who his ancestors were, just whether or not he was the right dog for me.

Some consumers are lured into the cute, Teddy-bear look of the Havanese puppy when they see photos online. I educated myself about the breed standards, and how the Teddy-bear round-eye shorter muzzle look, if I understand correctly, isn't part of the breed standard. That doesn't mean the dog is unhealthy, but does it also mean the dog is really a Havanese?


----------



## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Michele, I don't think your breeder is a bad breeder, I can't speak for her decision to breed pricy mutts, but the Havanese world is competitive these days so the prices have went down, there was a time a well bred Hav/silk would really set you back, so maybe her decision is economic.

The breed standards did change and a shorter muzzle was allowed, I have two Hav's Misty is typey and has a longer muzzle and Yogi has a bit shorter muzzle and a Teddy Bear look, Yogi is a rescue and Misty was purchased from a good breeder.

My post about the shipping was general so that new members are not scared off of breeders that ship. 

If you go back and look at the origins of many working dog breeds you will find some amazing stuff like how the Springer Spanial became a seperate breed from the English Cocker, breeding is an amazing subject. I really do not find it a problem that the Hav's do not all look alike as this is just another thing that sets them apart like their changing coats. They are not soooo different just small things and just maybe this is keeping them healthy instead of molding them to fit a narrow standard. 

Many backyard breeders are breeding Hav's they are popular, small and have good size litters, so with these dogs mixed in you have a lot of exaggerated features in the dogs you see in pet homes. At the shows the dogs do not differ very much, subtle if at all.

I live in a state where we still gas dogs and in some small counties they shoot or poison them. I am very much committed to changing this as well as promoting spay and neutering and helping it be affordable to our economicaly challenged populations. It is only in the pasted two years we have any basic laws about feeding, watering or anti cruelity laws for our companion animals in this state. Also we have many puppy mills, not only her in NC but through out the south. So I feel very strongly about breeding for a quick buck and to supply a greedy, I want it now mentality. Many of these dogs end up in a shelter sooner then most people believe.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

The Laughing Magpie said:


> Michele, I don't think your breeder is a bad breeder, I can't speak for her decision to breed pricy mutts, but the Havanese world is competitive these days so the prices have went down, there was a time a well bred Hav/silk would really set you back, so maybe her decision is economic.
> 
> The breed standards did change and a shorter muzzle was allowed, I have two Hav's Misty is typey and has a longer muzzle and Yogi has a bit shorter muzzle and a Teddy Bear look, Yogi is a rescue and Misty was purchased from a good breeder.
> 
> ...


So true Robbie, you have done so much to try and educate people about state laws pertaining to shelter and unwanted pets...Each state has their own set of laws. Each reader of these posts should ask themselves..."DO you know what your state laws are"?


----------



## Ruthi (Nov 10, 2011)

I think that a bad breeder in ones eyes is sometimes not so in anothers. Just like when I clean house, my clean may not be the same as your clean, lol. Your clean may be the dishes are done, and beds made. I am a clean freak, so, for me, clean isnt clean unless everything is spotless. Of course, some judgements are just obvious, such as puppy mills.
I dont think anyone would want to be legally responsible for the wrath of publishing a public list of bad breeders. Like many have said, education is the key.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

Ruthi said:


> I think that a bad breeder in ones eyes is sometimes not so in anothers. Just like when I clean house, my clean may not be the same as your clean, lol. Your clean may be the dishes are done, and beds made. I am a clean freak, so, for me, clean isnt clean unless everything is spotless. Of course, some judgements are just obvious, such as puppy mills.
> I dont think anyone would want to be legally responsible for the wrath of publishing a public list of bad breeders. Like many have said, education is the key.


Exactly...some breed for different reasons. Money is exchanged, I will not say those who breed make money, I have heard many breeders say they lose money, but money is exchanged. Hopefully the reasons they breed are not based on money, but love of the breed. Sadly I know that is not true of all. 
Even here, some don't like a certain breeder, others do. It is a good place to get answers. Questions are the beginning of the education process...glad we have the forum!


----------



## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Ruthi, You are being kind not only puppy mills but backyard breeders are a huge problem, back yard breeders are breeding for profit, they are doing nothing to advance the breed, they are helping to over populate an already out of control problem. To me often in the front lines of pet over population, breeding to make cute puppys, so people can have choices, and all the other bull, is unscrupulous.


----------



## sashamom (Jan 12, 2009)

*Pet Store*

I live within 1 mile of pet store that sells puppies. I will drive 5 to 10 miles to the pet stores that do not sell puppies. I have been in my local pet store and stopped the purchase of a havanese puppy by an unsuspecting older couple. It really broke my heart because he was a darling puppy and I worry about what will happen to him. They were charging 2500, I have not been in there to purchase dog food or other supplies since that time two years ago. But I do worry about what happens to the little guys no one buys. I referred the couple to HRI for advice.


----------



## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

So much of what I would have said has already quite ably been stated by others. In the end, we are not here to judge. We all make decisions in life that we sometimes regret in retrospect. Our goal, as a group, is to welcome, share, educate when we can, and be there for all those who wander over to our little place in cyberspace. I, too, remember in the past when people were attacked for buying a puppy from "the wrong" source. There is much to be said for "judge not, lest ye be judged."


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

pjewel said:


> So much of what I would have said has already quite ably been stated by others. In the end, we are not here to judge. We all make decisions in life that we sometimes regret in retrospect. Our goal, as a group, is to welcome, share, educate when we can, and be there for all those who wander over to our little place in cyberspace. I, too, remember in the past when people were attacked for buying a puppy from "the wrong" source. There is much to be said for "judge not, lest ye be judged."


Agreed. We are here for the Havs and Hav lovers.

Little Havanese and older Havanese don't know if they came from the world's best breeder or a puppy mill, they all have the same eager to please trait and offer unconditional love. True some have to go through an adjustment period due to past experiences, but underneath is a basic dog who is one of the most wonderful companions you can ever know.
You can see in their eyes either fear or trust. What we aspire to do here is put trust in all their eyes..
Education helps...either before of after you get that Hav...hopefully before!


----------



## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I actually left the forum for the period this was happening, maybe a 9-12 month hiatus. I think people are more apt to listen to the guidance of the group if they like us, feel connected. In a perfect world they would all come post before buying a puppy from a pet store, but that's never gonna happen, sadly.

I don't see how the critical tactic works post-purchase, these unsuspecting people with their first pet would come ask about housebreaking, be asked where there dog came from, if it didn't make the standard, they'd be brow beaten and made to feel as if they gave a cigarette to a toddler or beat a cat to death for shopping at a pet store that sold dogs, or bought from a side of the road breeder...

I know Geri and I have heard some criticism about this, and IDK..I am just not a mean spirited person in general I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. (and I am referring to the new hav' parent, not the byb's, there is really no excuse for them and when they DO come here to defend their honor, they do a pretty good job of destroying their own reputation trying to defend why they don't health test, etc.) I just hope that we can keep people around that have made bad decisions, long enough to educate them to not support these places and breeders


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

You know, Michele asked about a "black list", and I think most of us agree that that's a bad idea. But a few of us have our dog's breeder's name as part of their registered name in our signature. Why not encourage people who had a great experience with their breeder to do the same? Then when people looking for a puppy see these breeder's names, they can Google them and contact them if they choose!

I think it would be much better to encourage puppy buyers to contact breeders that we know and have confidence in, than to have a list of breeders to avoid. The other problem with the black list method is that the very worst offenders aren't "breeders" per se, but internet puppy brokers and pet stores that sell puppy mill dogs. Having a black list of breeders does nothing to help people avoid getting caught up with some of the slick websites out there masking puppy mills. Nor does it prevent the "impulse buy" when someone sees an adorable fluffy puppy in a pet store window.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

krandall said:


> You know, Michele asked about a "black list", and I think most of us agree that that's a bad idea. But a few of us have our dog's breeder's name as part of their registered name in our signature. Why not encourage people who had a great experience with their breeder to do the same? Then when people looking for a puppy see these breeder's names, they can Google them and contact them if they choose!
> 
> I think it would be much better to encourage puppy buyers to contact breeders that we know and have confidence in, than to have a list of breeders to avoid. The other problem with the black list method is that the very worst offenders aren't "breeders" per se, but internet puppy brokers and pet stores that sell puppy mill dogs. Having a black list of breeders does nothing to help people avoid getting caught up with some of the slick websites out there masking puppy mills. Nor does it prevent the "impulse buy" when someone sees an adorable fluffy puppy in a pet store window.


Karen, that is a wonderful idea...and if it is a rescue, put that information on there as well!!!...


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> Karen, that is a wonderful idea...and if it is a rescue, put that information on there as well!!!...


Absolutely!


----------

