# Havanese vs Havana silk



## Lilly's mom

*Can any one tell me the real difference. One web site says they are extinct and then there is the HSDAA that says they have the Cuban original. What do you all think*.


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## anneks

http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=1010


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## Havtahava

The Havana Silk Dog was one of the original names of the dog we now call the Havanese.

They are all Havanese.


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## Melissa Miller

Oh My Gravy. 

Well this will get intense most likely. Its not an easy answer. Some of us think that a certain amount of people tried to split the breed due to political reasons and came up with a swanky name. We have a lot of breeders in the Havanese world who are good and breeding great dogs. The HSDAA claims one minute they split based on health reasons and the next based on body type. Regardless they still show in the Havanese ring, so they must not have too big of a problem being called Havanese. 

I consider them a club and you can choose to join them or not, however they have many restrictions and being part of their club means those dogs can not ever breed with the non-club member dogs. 

Some people are choosing to only register some of their dogs and not all, which I can think is ONLY for financial reasons, either you believe you are a separate breed or you don't. Keep in mind there are people who think Elvis is alive... and that David Koresh was a god. So different strokes for different folks.


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## Lilly's mom

anneks said:


> http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=1010


*143 pages:jaw: this will take several hours to read. OH MY*


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## Havtahava

I summarized all 143 pages in my reply above if you'd like the short version.


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## Lilly's mom

I think I agree with your short version.


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## marjrc

Havtahava said:


> I summarized all 143 pages in my reply above if you'd like the short version.


As usual, Kimberly, you said it well. :biggrin1:


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## marjrc

Melissa Miller said:


> Oh My Gravy.


LOL Melissa, that's exactly what I said when I saw this thread!!! :jaw: Except that I said "Holy ****" instead of gravy.

Must be a suthern thang.

LOL :biggrin1:


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## radar_jones

So this is what they mean by opening up a can of worms.....a very big can....143 pages worth.....Oh my dear lord........:jaw: 

derek


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## Thumper

We ALL knew this was coming, didn't we???? And I guess we better get used to it, because puppy buyers often stop in here.

If you are going to read that thread, make a pot of coffee and make sure you have a few hours. Also, pop some popcorn! ound: It is quite entertaining, and actually pretty educational....but don't believe everything said.

Kara


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## irnfit

After reading and re-reading 143 pages, letters, other forums, I have come to the conclusion that this is all a crock. It's lots of smoke and mirrors, because some people got po'd because things weren't going exactly their way. Jusy my opinion. eace:


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## Julie

Well,if I only post one today-----good lord,it's gotta be here.
The HS dog is a break off of the havanese.They say they are from other breeding stock?Bull****!Their dogs have the exact same background/pedigrees as every other hav.
They can look somewhat different based on a flat coat.Seems like if a person wants a colored maltese--go for a so called-Havana Silk.

A Havanese is a Havanna Silk and have shared both names...."Havanese also known as the Havanna Silk"

Some just want to have their cake and eat it too--and your piece and my piece etc.

eace:


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## Kathy

irnfit said:


> After reading and re-reading 143 pages, letters, other forums, I have come to the conclusion that this is all a crock. It's lots of smoke and mirrors, because some people got po'd because things weren't going exactly their way. Jusy my opinion. eace:


Yes Michele, You are EXACTLY correct!!!! Marketing and control comes to my mind.


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## Sunnygirl

At least right now, the Havana Silk Dogs are all AKC registered Havanese. I think the plan is for them to someday be a separate AKC breed. My Nico is a Havanese but he's also registered with the HSDAA (his entire litter was registered). As you can see from my avatar, he looks just like many of the other Havanese dogs whose pictures you see on this forum. I don't think it makes a lick of difference to the average pet owner like me, although I like to participate in both Havanese and HSD forums because I get helpful information on how to keep my pup healthy and happy from both.


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## Tom King

To visualize the differences:


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## Dawna

I don't think that picture is a fair representation for the large majority of havanese or the people breeding them, Tom. 
Dawna


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## Dawna

Michele,
You're a smart chick.
Dawna


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## Tom King

We went with the Havana Silk Dogs for several reasons.

It greatly simplifies our lives every day when talking to people about the health testing. People interested have already done their research and to be a breeding dog with HSDAA the dogs have to be tested and pass.

I believe the HS standard will be constant. Who knows where the Havanese Standard will be in the future-no doubt it will be changed again.

As far as whose version of history to believe that doesn't bother me. I always remember Winston Churchill's quote. He said something like, "History will be good to me for I intend to write it." So far every version of Bichon Habanero history has some obvious flaws in it. I like the fact that the Havana Silks are going to use the oldest versions of the Standard.

As far as marketing advantage-I don't see any difference other than that mentioned in the first paragraph. We still sell puppies for the same price. We don't have to answer questions like "do we ship puppies" etc. The "marketing" motivation just doesn't work. No one, including those standing a number of stud dogs, are making more money. If anything less.

The Silk Dog folks are the ones who will be doing research such as genetic diversity. Very few breeds of dogs have even studied their Genetic Diversity and of the ones who have, including the Silks, the Silk dogs have been found to have the MOST genetic diversity of any breed studied. In just the first 100 Certified dogs (it's pretty cool to have the database at hand since ALL Certified dogs have to submit DNA for record), they were found to have a Genetic Diversity available of 4.6 genes available per locus. So selecting away from dogs with bowed legs has not put us in a genetic bind at all. The next closest breed is Standard Poodles at 4.4. You might ask how can this be with just the small number of dogs to start with but you can have a small population with a large genetic diversity and also a large population with a small genetic diversity. Donkeys for example are 2.2. This does raise questions about the original Havanese but that's another story.


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## juliav

All I can say is, "Not Again!!!!"


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## Thumper

Sunnygirl, there is an HSD forum? That's great for those that own dogs registered in the HSD. 

But I'm confused on why the HSD breeders or HSD directors would still associate themselves with the "havanese" people/owners...if they created a forum to separate themselves from this one?

Kara


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## irnfit

Tom, is the black one in front the HSD? And if I'm right, do I win a prize??? :biggrin1:


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## Thumper

The tail isn't high on that one (like the illustration on the website) so I would guess that is a Havanese?? 

Kara


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## Havtahava

I definitely don't want to get into all the differences and debates, but just so you know (Kara & others), usually breed illustrations and standards will not reflect any real dogs. They are meant to reflect an _ideal_ dog, which doesn't exist. It is the same for the Havanese Standard & illustrations.

Presumably, you won't ever find a real dog that fits the Havanese standard either. We just keep trying to breed the closest, healthiest dogs we can to try to achieve the standard someday, which is probably not ever possible.


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## irnfit

Also, I think a lot of us bought Havs that fit the standard, but we aren't going to show or breed, so we don't give a rat's behind if they have a flaw. Mine both fit the current Hav standard. Do they have flaws? Yes. Do they have CD? No. Are they healthy? So far, even though they are still quite young. I feel I got what I paid for...two Havanese pups.


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## Thumper

I am just being silly  I dont' want to get into differences, either. Those are pretty much covered in the "diff breeds" thread 


Kara


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## Amy R.

:brick: That thread is well-worth the read (I was sick in bed for a couple of days, so save it for when you have pure downtime, lol )---educational, informative, but also rife with politics. As I've written before, my DH and I have spent several decades in other areas of connoisseurship /collecting---and have encountered the same schisms, feuds, egos, etc. in which "experts" in a field split into opposing camps. This seems to be human nature. Perspective is needed, in my opinion!

Julia, AMEN!

Tom, _as per your definition_, is the first dog on the left w/longer legs the Havana Silk Dog and the second shorter one the Hav?

For most of us Hav owners, this is strictly academic. But if you're buying a puppy, I guess one should be more aware. At least of the possible health ramifications ---though I don't understand the claim that there is always a clear connection between phenotype and genotype.

Ok, enough already, now my head hurts, lol !


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## Havtahava

Exactly, Michele. All dogs have flaws when compared to their standard.

I have seen a few Havanese with CD, but thankfully, they are few and far between. Of the breeders I know, most all try to stay away from it. Unfortunately, there are a few that bury their head in the sand, and they bring folly to those that would like to make it seem like it is more prevelant than it is.

Kara, I know you were being silly. I just wanted to post that as an FYI. There has been some discussion about the Havanese Standard lately, and I think there were some people who didn't realize that it is all about the "ideal" dog and not a real one, so the thought was fresh in my mind.


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## Greg

You'll find lots of people saying you can't get 2 breeds from the same gene pool. This, in fact, is incorrect. Just ask the English Toy Spaniel club and the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel club. You can read their breed histories but in a nutshell, in the early 20th century breeders noticed the English Toy Spaniel didn't look anything like the "old" pictures of the dogs King Charles had. It appeared the breed had evolved over a couple of hundred years. Rather than just write off the original breed, breeders started selecting for the traits that were found in the original Charlsies and low and behold, a new breed appeared. Within a few years they had a seperate breed with the original breed type. Later on they were granted Breed status and the rest is history. 

Something very similar is happening in the Havanese/Havana Silk Dog world. 

I was allowed to copy this with permission:

For those who are new to this, here's the history of it:

When the Cubans registered their native breed with the post-Revolutionary Cuban Kennel Club, back in 1991 or thereabouts, they used the 1963 FCI standard (which predated the acceptance of the Havanese in the AKC Toy Group by a full thirty-six years) to determine which dogs in Cuba qualified for registration as Bichon Habaneros. (Sort of like our evaluations- we in fact borrowed that idea from the Cubans.)

Then, without changing the essence of it, they fleshed that standard out, put it in FCI formatting and terminology, and submitted it to FCI in 1999
FCI rejected it, claiming Cuba was not the country of origin for the breed and therefore had no right to control the standard. (In the FCI, the country of origin gets to write the standard, and the rest of the FCI countries have to use it. If there is no country of origin, the FCI writes the standard.) Then FCI itself revised the Havanese standard in 1997, making them low on leg, knowing full well that the Cuban dogs were not low on leg in the least, nor did the Cubans want them to be.

Now, the Cubans certainly have a clear idea what their own breed should look like- it's been there for 300 years! The simple fact is, neither HCA nor the FCI, both of whom have been aware of the existence of the Cuban standard for many years, have ever wanted to use that standard, nor do they want to use it now.

Why? Because it does not describe the majority of Havanese being bred or shown throughout Western Europe or in the US, and there is little "wiggle-room" in it for dogs who do not conform. As was the case in 1963, it clearly descibes a dog that is slightly longer than tall, lean of bone, high on leg, with a dropped croup and a crozier tail, not to exceed 13.5 pounds. It is not double-coated.

So in order to preserve this dog of Cuba, we needed to start a new breed, with a new name. The Havana Silk Dog represents an effort to work with the Cubans to preserve the dog of Cuba in its original form. To that end, the HSDAA simply borrowed the standard the Cubans wrote (which they are forbidden to use, being an FCI country), translated it, and put it in AKC terminology and format. It will be in the Silk Road for all to see- it is the official standard for the Havana Silk Dog breed. It is very precise.
Because of its precision of language, everyone will KNOW what the Havana Silk Dog should look like. (As far as I can tell, no one has ever known, or agreed on, what a Havanese should look like.)


So basically, this is not about health or politics or anything but simply whether or not one wants to be part of an exciting adventure to try and preserve the original dog of Cuba. Will it be a challenge, with many hurdles? No doubt. Is it worth it? That's up to each individual to decide for themselves.


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## juliav

Thumperlove said:


> Sunnygirl, there is an HSD forum? That's great for those that own dogs registered in the HSD.
> 
> But I'm confused on why the HSD breeders or HSD directors would still associate themselves with the "havanese" people/owners...if they created a forum to separate themselves from this one?
> 
> Kara


Why to keep an eye on the competition of course!!!


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## Amy R.

But Greg, weren't the original Havs or Havana Silk dogs, if you will, WHITE? As in Blanquitos de Havana or de Cuba? So why aren't white dogs a requirement of your standard?


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## Greg

Because we used the Cuban Standard and it allows for any color as long as pigment is black. If it called for only white dogs, I'd start over with other dogs before I'd try to change their original standard.


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## Amy R.

Though clearly, at some point in history, these dogs were white. As in Blanquitos (little white ones) de Havana.


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## Amy R.

I'm also wondering what a dog is considered to be if he has characteristics of both types: eg. my dog has shorter legs, longer body , and weighs 14.5 # (like a Hav) ---but has a very silky single coat, & longer more delicate muzzle (as in a Havana silk dog). Does this simply reflect the mixed lineage of so-called Arizona and Cuban dogs? OK, after this, I'll shut-up. It IS a fascinating debate.


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## Greg

It very well could.


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## Melissa Miller

I asked questions of both sides recently and found so many inconsistencies I couldn't stand it. I feel like I did my own research and I am comfortable where I stand. I am sure there will never be a big huge party and the Pro-Havanese people are not going to be hanging out at one of the "fiestas". 

I am not very concerned with other breed splits, I'm concerned with this breed and this situation. It is very easy to show a photo with two extremes. I am sure I can find a photo with an HSD and non-HSD where they look very similar. 

Some HSD people may not be showing with Havanese but some are, as I saw Steve showing Diane Klumbs dogs in Houston. So getting those AKC championship points must still be important to some. 

There are some people who are involved with the HSD that I respect very much. There have been others who joined for the wrong reasons. There are some who have been bragging about having the rare breed and have raised their prices. There are some who told me they would register some of their dogs HSD because HSD people wanted them for studs and others as Havanese so they could breed them with Havanese people. If that isn't financial gain, I don't know what is. 

I get irritated when I read about it all and the changing stories. I am going to try to stay out of this because its all been hashed out in the prior thread. I think everyone should look into this for themselves and come to their own conclusion. Look at the health records of dogs on BOTH sides. Not just CD, but all health areas. This is not the perfect dog, neither are Havanese. As Julie said, many of these dogs share the same pedigrees. 

I am going to try and avoid this now.


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## Amy R.

Thank you, Melissa. Well said.


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## Dawna

I totally agree. New people... please do your _*own research *_and don't listen to the hype. It's all there in black and white. Pedigrees, OFA records, etc. People can SAY whatever they want about the 'kind' of dogs they are breeding. It's all about health, no wait, it's all about the 'look', um, nevermind, now it's just a big adventure. Documentation is an entirely different matter.


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## Greg

I agree with you Melissa. 

Some people feel comfortable showing in AKC. I don't. I shaved Jake down and will be showing Trixie at the HSDAA shows, ARBA shows and IABC shows. I won't be showing in the AKC. I should point out that Steve is showing a bitch he and I bred. It was our original intent to finish her with an AKC championship and we've decided to continue towards that goal. 

I think one should also point out that both breeds have breeders who breed for the wrong reasons. In fact, there is no right or wrong..........just a preference as to what breed one wants to breed. 

No need to fight about it


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## Greg

I totally agree with Dawna about doing your own research. 

New people, don't let any Havanese person or Havana Silk Dog person convince you............check it out yourself. Everyone on here has an agenda.


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## juliav

Greg said:


> Everyone on here has an agenda.


I beg to differ!! I know I am one (and I know there are others) of those who has no agenda. I am simply a Hav fancier, who fell in love with the HAVANESE breed and am only here to share the joys and sometimes challenges of being a Havamom. I have made great new friends on this site and I love it here. If you consider this an agenda, fine!


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## Melissa Miller

I was talking about the other dog Steve was showing which is listed as being owned by Bill and Diane Klumb. Bydand Whirlaway...it no longer bothers me that HSD dogs show in the ring, as I think they should since they are Havanese. If I was with the HSD, I dont know if I would show, if I felt they were _not _Havanese but a separate breed.

And yes I have said there are bad apples on both sides for sometime. It is what complicates things so much. I have just tried to accept both views and go the way I am comfortable. I guess its confusing to me those that are doing both. Either your passionate about it or your not.

I disagree about agendas. Not everyone has an agenda. Not sure what I would benefit by being associated with either side? I am a peon in the dog world. Dang it, I came back.  Now I can't be responsible for visits to this thread after the vino gets uncorked. HA.


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## Thumper

Uncork the vino, Melissa!!!







Have one for me, since I had to give it up it puts me in atrocious pain...  Boo hoo

Kara


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## TnTWalter

*Well....I grabbed a glass of wine and checked the board...*

just in time....

I'll have another just for Kara if I have to! LOL.










Trish


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## lfung5

Wow, looking at the 2 next to each other, now I can see the difference. The front dog looks more like a tibetan terrier, at least from what I can see from the picture.


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## Julie

Greg said:


> New people, don't let any Havanese person or Havana Silk Dog person convince you............check it out yourself. Everyone on here has an agenda.


I resent this comment.Who has an agenda?I'm not a breeder--just a pet owner.Speak for yourself Greg.You are the breeder with an agenda......you just "pop" up to post when you have to stir up trouble or make **** sure no one is commenting on a havana silk.........what other participation have you had on this board other then that since the breed split?VERY LITTLE that I've seen--and yet we all have welcomed you and continued to be nice and interact etc.


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## lfung5

Not everyone has an agenda. I am only here because I enjoy talking to NICE havamoms and dads that are as crazy about their dogs as I am. 
I WAS one other Havanese forum for a day, mostly breeders, but the people were too nasty for me! This forum has mostly nice people, not a lot of catty judgmental breeders.

I also know a lot of breeders who breed straight legs, CHIC, beautiful dogs that are not part of the Havanese silk dog thing.


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## radar_jones

I think this Thread may just overthrow the original one that seems to have started all this Debate....we're in for a long one...get some popcorn and a pot of coffee going...it's gonna be a bumpy night....

Derek


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## Amy R.

LOL, Derek! Too true.
And, yes, in my opinion as well, the majority of Forum members don't have an agenda at all--only their love of Havanese and desire to learn more about them!


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## Thumper

Have you ever heard that old 80's tune..."Somebody's WATCHIN' Me?"










hehe

Kara


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## Greg

We have to keep in mind Steve has been showing for 30 years. It's his hobby and it is hard for him to withdraw. He might, he might not.

I don't understand how people can do both either. To each their own I guess.

I know I dont' get any more or any fewer calls for puppies. I don't charge any more or any less for puppies. People who want to show a dog are told the puppy is registered with the HSDAA and should be shown in ARBA and Intl shows as well as HSDAA shows. I guess I couldn't stop them from showing in the AKC.............but they know from the start their dog is going to look different and it won't help it get any points in the AKC.

When I said everyone has an agenda I was assuming the reader would understand I was referring to the people they would talk to about the split. I doubt many pet owners will be contacted about a puppy purchase. If I offended I'm sorry.

G



Melissa Miller said:


> I was talking about the other dog Steve was showing which is listed as being owned by Bill and Diane Klumb. Bydand Whirlaway...it no longer bothers me that HSD dogs show in the ring, as I think they should since they are Havanese. If I was with the HSD, I dont know if I would show, if I felt they were _not _Havanese but a separate breed.
> 
> And yes I have said there are bad apples on both sides for sometime. It is what complicates things so much. I have just tried to accept both views and go the way I am comfortable. I guess its confusing to me those that are doing both. Either your passionate about it or your not.
> 
> I disagree about agendas. Not everyone has an agenda. Not sure what I would benefit by being associated with either side? I am a peon in the dog world. Dang it, I came back.  Now I can't be responsible for visits to this thread after the vino gets uncorked. HA.


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## TnTWalter

*Color me stupid...but...*



Tom King said:


> To visualize the differences:


Which one is which?? I'm assuming the black one is supposed to be HSd but you can't really see the black one and hardly at all the one coming up behind....

That's all...just didn't think it was a good 'visualization'.

Thanks.

Trish


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## marjrc

TnTWalter said:


> Which one is which?? I'm assuming the black one is supposed to be HSd but you can't really see the black one and hardly at all the one coming up behind....
> 
> That's all...just didn't think it was a good 'visualization'.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Trish


I agree, Trish. I dont' quite "get it" looking at that picture either. I'd love to see many more depicting the differences. Maybe HSDAA can have a bunch of them posted at their site.

I have seen over 30 Havs in one place, at a recent gathering/picnic, and I admit there were many differences. Way more than I'd ever expect. Many of them were 'pets' and quite a few were show dogs and still ..... I would be very hard-pressed to write a detailed description of the "typical" Havanese based on what I saw. When I've been to shows, though, I saw there was much less of a difference between dogs there.


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## Greg

We do have quite a few pics on our HSDAA website. Lots more info too ..... if you haven't visited lately


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## TnTWalter

*No thanks...not that interested...I just figured you'd post a better example*

HERE on our board.

But thanks.

Trish


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## irnfit

I just read through a bit of the website. While it has been changed to be a little kinder, it still bites at Havanese, just in a gentler way. The beef I now have is in a HSD breeder website that states "The Havana Silk Dog is an AK registered Havanese". How is this possible? Is it a Havanese or a HSD. Did the AKC approve this "new breed" and I missed it somewhere, or is there a different explanation to this quote?


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## lfung5

I just think it's a little stange to breed away from the havanese standard and make a new standard, to what your dogs are producing. Does that make sense? The front dog has a far reach in his gate. I thought the havanese standard was moderate reach. I also notice some of the HSD have close set eyes, I thought the original standard had rather wide set eyes. I am not an expert.
When I am at shows, I do not see much of a difference. I do sometimes see a difference in faces.
Also the HSD website does not really have an official set standard written up? Is that because it changes as dogs are produced? seems like the HSD is maybe thinking they are a bit superior? I might be wrong, but that's how the website comes off to me.


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## Greg

lfung5 said:


> I just think it's a little stange to breed away from the havanese standard and make a new standard, to what your dogs are producing. Does that make sense? Also the HSD website does not really have an official set standard written up? Is that because it changes as dogs are produced? seems like the HSD is maybe thinking they are a bit superior? I might be wrong, but that's how the website comes off to me.


You are going to have to help me here. :brick:

How does using a combination of the 1963 FCI Standard and the Cuban Standard (circa 1991) mean we made a new Standard? Both were in existance when the HCA wrote their _first _standard. The entire problem here is that the Havanese Standard has always been a compromise to include as many dogs as possible rather than just using a Standard that predated the Havanese in America by almost 50 years.


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## Sunnygirl

irnfit said:


> The beef I now have is in a HSD breeder website that states "The Havana Silk Dog is an AK registered Havanese". How is this possible? Is it a Havanese or a HSD. Did the AKC approve this "new breed" and I missed it somewhere, or is there a different explanation to this quote?


I'm far from an expert, but I think the statement on that breeder website is correct. I think most if not all of the dogs that are registered with the HSDAA are in fact AKC registered Havanese. I know my puppy is an AKC registered Havanese, but also in the HSDAA registry. Registering a dog with HSDAA does not "undo" the AKC registration. Since the AKC does not currently recognize the Havana Silk Dog, you can't register a dog with the AKC as an Havana Silk Dog. My understanding is that eventually the HSDAA will seek AKC recognition as a separate breed, but that's probably a ways off. Until that happens, the dogs that were registered with the AKC as Havanese are still Havanese for AKC purposes - their offspring can be registered as Havanese, they can compete in AKC events as Havanese, etc.

I hope that someone more knowledgeable about this than me will jump in and correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I understand it.


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## SMARTY

Tom, Greg and any other HSD member: Being a novice Havanese owner I have no preference to one or the other types of Havanese and think my pup could fit into either by reading both standards. I do have a working knowledge about AKC and different splits in breeds, and I believe the start of this problem is in the Name. Why not call your breed the Cuban Silk Dog or anything other than Havanese? That way the HSD website would not be so offensive to the Havanese Club or owners. The website makes statements that would make you think the “Havanese” is inferior in every way to the Silk Dogs. If you truly want to be a different breed why take the name.


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## Greg

We checked to see if the AKC would let us use Bichon Habanero. They said no. We then looked to find a name that had never been offically used to name the breed. We chose Havana Silk Dog because nobody had ever used that name to register a dog in any registry. We thought it also best described this dog, long thought extinct, that had reemerged thru careful breeding.


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## TnTWalter

*Anyone read any good books lately?*

I loved _the Wedding Officer _and am currently laughing at a light read called _Bobbie Faye's Very Bad Day_.

Trisheace:


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## Doggie Nut

Oh my.....look what happens when one is gone for a few days!:jaw: Say isn't this the same thing that Hitler was trying to do.....create a super race through breeding only those he deemed to be perfect? I know.....I probably should just shut-up! What do I know.....except I love my hav!eace:


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## juliav

Vicki,

I was thinking that if people had to pass the same criteria for breeding as these dogs, we as humans would be pretty close to extinct.


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## Doggie Nut

Julia, you are so right.....I'm so thankful I am accepted, warts and all!:biggrin1:


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## Kathy

Greg said:


> You are going to have to help me here. :brick:
> 
> How does using a combination of the 1963 FCI Standard and the Cuban Standard (circa 1991) mean we made a new Standard? Both were in existance when the HCA wrote their _first _standard. The entire problem here is that the Havanese Standard has always been a compromise to include as many dogs as possible rather than just using a Standard that predated the Havanese in America by almost 50 years.


Greg,
First, I don't think you need any help answering your question, as you did it already. Since the HSD is supposedly using different standards, that in and of itself makes the HSD standard NEW. Further, both were NOT in existence (meaning being used), but rather both may have been known. Now, how in the world can the HSD write a standard based on something that didn't exist 50 years ago? Meaning, have you seen a standard that is 50 years old? Further, read what the FCI had to say about the 1963 Havanese standard, very interesting read.

Again, it isn't about producing a healthier Havanese, as that is what I do.

I wish you all well with your pursuit of creating a new breed, but DON'T insult the very breed that got you all where you are today. I also don't think breeders who have registered their dogs with HSD should be showing in the Havanese ring, since those breeders have decided their dogs are now another breed and are committed to that task, that means they are no longer are Havanese.


----------



## irnfit

Kathy, you hit the nail on the head. They are HSD but are still registering them with AKC as Havanese so they can be shown. Which are they?????

I also think a big problem is allowing the standards to be changed to meet the breed instead of the breed conforming to the standard.


----------



## lfung5

Kathy,
I agree with EVERYTHING you said. It just confuses me how HSD can take bits and pieces from different standards to fit what they are breeding. What is wrong with the current standard? If it is too complex, simplify it rather than create a new one. 

But again, I am not an expert just a hav lover!


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## Dawna

Kathy,
My thoughts exactly. Well, not exactly, the way you put it was infinitely more polite. LOL
Dawna


----------



## irnfit

LOL, Dawna!


----------



## dboudreau

I have not read every post on this thread, but I do have one thing to say. What about the rest of the "world" where Havana Silk Dog is just another name for a Havanese, that is just another name for Bichon Habanero?


----------



## Greg

Kathy said:


> Greg,
> Further, both were NOT in existence (meaning being used), but rather both may have been known. Now, how in the world can the HSD write a standard based on something that didn't exist 50 years ago?


This isn't what Dorothy said. She said she wrote to the FCI for a copy of their standard and they said all they had was the 1963 Standard, which they sent her. Later, the FCI said the 1963 Standard was a copy of the 1935 Standard.

Also, just because something isn't "used" doesnt' mean it doesn't exist. So the 1963 Standard is 44 yrs old and since it was a copy of the 1935 Standard, the Standard is actually 72 yrs old. It was good enough of a Standard for the Cubans to use it in 1991 when they began rehabilitating the breed in Cuba.


----------



## Greg

Doggie Nut said:


> Oh my.....look what happens when one is gone for a few days!:jaw: Say isn't this the same thing that Hitler was trying to do.....create a super race through breeding only those he deemed to be perfect? I know.....I probably should just shut-up! What do I know.....except I love my hav!eace:


You know, I lost family members in Auschwitz-Birkenau and Bełżec. And while some of our members may have gotten a chuckle out of your little comparison, I found it offensive to be compared to Hitler and the Nazis. I wish other found it offensive as well..............


----------



## Kathy

Greg said:


> Later, the FCI said the 1963 Standard was a copy of the 1935 Standard.
> 
> Also, just because something isn't "used" doesnt' mean it doesn't exist. So the 1963 Standard is 44 yrs old and since it was a copy of the 1935 Standard, the Standard is actually 72 yrs old. It was good enough of a Standard for the Cubans to use it in 1991 when they began rehabilitating the breed in Cuba.


Greg,
I would like to see this supposed 1935 standard. Since the breed didn't really exist supposedly at that time. Also, I don't know what FCI information you are getting, but go their web site and read about the 1963 Standard. I will try to send you what I found as it is information I found very interesting. I have done a lot of research on this, and I don't believe until I see it that a 1935 standard exists.

I was clarifying your statement, as you were making it sound as if it was being used.

I am done Greg. Please, go and have fun breeding and showing your dogs that can't get real championships nor compete with the real McCoy, and that also have the very same health issues as any other dogs, maybe even worse then other's depending on who you listen too or believe.

If you ever want to talk Havanese, I am all over it, but I am done discussing this rediculous subject of someone's made up breed.


----------



## Kathy

Greg said:


> You I found it offensive to be compared to Hitler and the Nazis. I wish other found it offensive as well..............


Greg,
Then maybe you are feeling a wee bit like I did when I first read the HSDAA web site.


----------



## Lilly's mom

OH my stars folks all I wanted was a written and picture of the differences. I did not want to start a debate. I am so sorry I opened this can of worms. I have learned so much from this forum on how to care for my little Lilly and I do hope she turns out to be some type of Havanese. They are so lovable. 
I am looking forward to see how the AKC does handle this and I am doing my own research. Thanks for letting me vent some what.


----------



## TnTWalter

*MM can we please close this?*

There is nothing to be gained.

And Greg I am sorry about the Nazi comparison. It is really inappropriate and offensive.

I again ask: Since this is heading in a 'been there done that' direction, can this be closed?

eace:


----------



## Greg

Thanks Trish


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## Thumper

TnTWalter said:


> There is nothing to be gained.
> 
> And Greg I am sorry about the Nazi comparison. It is really inappropriate and offensive.
> 
> I again ask: Since this is heading in a 'been there done that' direction, can this be closed?
> 
> eace:


Well......the thing is, people will continue to come here and ask questions because it is pretty confusing to someone that is looking into the breed and wanting to adopt a puppy. So, I don't think this is going to "end" anytime soon...its just the beginning.

I am going to NYC in a few weeks and actually meeting with an investor in a company that we brought public, he happens to be on the board of directors at the AKC. I'm curious to hear if he has heard of this split and what his take is on it. Of course, we will talk business first  But I'll have some idea on what the AKC is thinking about this when I get home (assuming the board of directors is aware of it).

Kara


----------



## Beamer

*confused???*

Ok, I'm alittle bit confused on this whole split of the Havanese..
I mean, as a pet owner of a Havanese dog, I guess it really does not matter... I do not even know where Beamer would even fit into the 2 breedes..

I was reading the HSDAA Constitution and am very confused by:

Section 2:
10. To urge members and breeders to accept the Havana Silk Dog standard as the only standard of excellence by which the Havana Silk Dog should be judged.

Why does this say 'to urge' ? Should this not be a requirement?
Why would the HSDAA want to compete against the Havanese if they do not even fit into the Havanese standard? Then what are they really winning if they win championships?? Just a little confused on that..

A couple pages ago Tom or Greg said that one of there HSDAA dogs was still be shown at Havanese shows because the handler wanted to...
But why?? 
And why would the HSDAA allow this?
And why would the HSDAA dog be allowed to enter the ring in the first place??????????

Just my 2 cents.. lol

Ryan


----------



## Amy R.

Kara, you are absolutely right. Prospective, new, and even old Havanese owners are trying to wrap their minds around this issue, debate it, and understand it, and the discussion will , and should, continue. We"ll be very interested to know what you learn in NYC.

That being said, can we please keep the tone and level of this discussion cilvilized and appropriate on *our *forum? This is a pretty special place!  Whether we agree or disagree with Greg (and I would tend to disagree) , he is always a gentleman and attempts to give helpful responses in elucidating his position. That's his right. Like Trish, I find any name-calling, and especially Nazi comparisons, very offensive and completely uncalled for.

Having said THAT, I do understand that this must be a very highly charged issue for breeders who have invested so much passion, energy, and years in developing the Havanese breed. I have the greatest respect for you all and what you do. I am a mere, humble pet Hav owner.


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## Melissa Miller

Ryan, they do still fit into the Havanese Standard. Some of the people who created the HSDAA helped create the Havanese standard. They think our standard is too broad because the dogs can have varying looks. So they started breeding to a certain type and now think they should all look like theirs. 

And, they are still allowed to compete in the Havanese ring because they are STILL Havanese.

Lets say I decide to be a purple monkey. Im now telling everyone I am purple monkey. Just because I am telling everyone I am a purple monkey doesn't mean I stopped being a human. So I can vote and live in my house ( instead of the zoo) because I am still human. Until someone like oh... God says I am a purple monkey, I can still be normal and claim to be a purple monkey, however we all know that I am not. 

So this is a club saying they are the HSDAA. They are Havanese. Until the AKC claims they are otherwise thats all they are. A club. 

I agree nothing can come of this, as I believe the cut off for registering your dogs has passed. The only people they can tempt to influence are puppy buyers by claiming to have the superior dogs. Talk about being offended??? However, I am not going to tell people they can not continue to discuss/argue it. When people grow tired of hearing and reading about it, they can stop visiting this thread which I have TRIED to do many times.


----------



## Melissa Miller

Vicki is a very nice person and I don't think she meant a direct comparison to the activities that were conducted, nor did she mean to call HSDAA people Nazi's. I think she was stating the similarities of saying you are creating a superior breed by eliminating the ones you dont see "good enough" from your gene pool. While some of us think those rejects are just fine and more than good enough.


----------



## irnfit

I think this keeps drawing us back, because it is so close to our hearts. I have absolutely nothing to gain, no agenda, by being upset about this split. But still, I am. I think most of the blame has to fall on HSDAA, because of how they have worded their website info. It is nice to see that they have softened it up a bit, but the digs are still there, just a little more subtle.


----------



## Amy R.

I should have added---I do know that Vicki is a very nice person and I imagine the effect of the remark was unintended.


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## maryam187

OK,
I must have read the HSDAA-website after it's been 'softened up'. I'm a future pet owner who did lots of research on the Havanese. When I got on the HSDAA-website, I understood from it, that the HSD is a Havanese that is about to be bred in a way to regain the original looks of the Bichon Habanero and maybe one day eventually become its own registered breed.
I chose to get a HSD, because I liked the way they look and it made life a little easier for me to know that only dogs with good health testings for many generations are bred/selected. Now this does absolutely *NOT* mean, that there aren't *MANY* great Havanese breeders who do all the health testing for many generations too. I just decided for myself that I prefer the looks of the HSD. And looking at many Havanese breeders' websites, I was overwhelmed by the variety of the Havanese looks. Now again, this does absolutely *NOT* mean, that different looks are something bad! It just means to me, that if I like the HSD look, I have a bigger chance to find one similar to Breeder A's dogs that I like at Breeder B's who lives closer to me and has an upcoming litter.
Reading through this thread (don't even want to read the 143 page one!) really made me feel uncomfortable about posting and bragging about my future dog, who turns out to be a HSD, because of my personal preferences. It makes me sad to know, that probably by me posting pics and bragging about him, will have people think I believe I have a 'superior' dog, just because I prefer his body structure or 'silky' hair.
That reminds me: when buying Levi's Jeans, for instance, no one feels offended if person A loves the 501 and person B loves the 901. I believe they even tried to come out with a pair that looked like the ORIGINAL Levi's denim and no one felt offended by that either, because that doesn't mean that your twisted 21th century baggy Levi's Jeans are inferior to the Orginal. Now this is just talking about Jeans and I *KNOW* that dogs are living beings. But I think it's very exaggerated to come up with some Hitler analogy, trust me I grew up in Germany and you just don't want to open that rotten can of worms!!! 
The most important thing to me, is that I can trust my breeder, I will get all the health information that makes me feel comfortable with my choice and I get the dog that has the look I like. 
Now anyone with some common sense will hopefully understand that this last statement is applicable to *ANY* breed, whether Havanese, HSD, Poodle, German Shepherd, etc.
Maryam.


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## Thumper

I think Vicki was just making a comparison, like Melissa said. I assume the inference was along the lines of.."A super race of Havanese, free and clear of health problems, better personalities, and better looking, etc". I'm certain she didn't mean to offend, only analogize.

Melissa, Queen of Photography.... I notice there is an issue on the HSD website about having pictures of "their" dogs on the HCA website and wanting those pulled down. Maybe we should pull together some gorgeous Havanese pictures and send it to the HCA so they can rebuild their picture gallery with beautiful Havanese? Anyone? Perhaps a new thread about this?

Kara


----------



## Havtahava

Kara, all the HSD dogs have been pulled from the HCA site and I think they may like one or two new submissions. If you have one of Gucci you'd like to submit, I can send you the email address.

Actually, I'm sending you a PM anyway...


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## Sunnygirl

Melissa Miller said:


> The only people they can tempt to influence are puppy buyers by claiming to have the superior dogs.


I personally think that most puppy buyers who do research and take the time to educate themselves are going to be just as likely to buy a Havanese puppy as a Havana Silk Dog puppy, perhaps more likely depending on availability. My puppy is a registered Havana Silk (of course, when I chose my breeder he was the not-yet-conceived pup of two Havanese parents). I chose the Havanese breed largely for size, non-shedding coat and temperament. I chose my breeder because she seemed experienced and reputable and did lots of health testing. The "look" of the HSD did not come into play at all. I'm still not sure I can totally tell the difference - I'm embarrassed to say I wasn't sure which of the pictures Tom posted was the HSD. When I get another puppy (and yes, MHS sufferers, I'm figuring it's a when not an if), chances are good I'll go back to the same breeder because I absolutely love the puppy I already got from her (and yes, I think he IS a superior puppy, but I'm totally biased). But if she doesn't have pups when I'm ready, I am just as likely to go to a Havanese breeder who is experienced, reputable and does all the health testing as I am to go to an HSD breeder. I don't care about the look - I care about the temperament and the health. I agree with the HSDAA that there are Havanese breeders out there who do not health test or who breed dogs with CD and other health issues (all those puppy mills, among others). However, I know just from this forum that there are a number of Havanese breeders whose standards and breeding practices are top drawer and whose health testing is no different from that of the HSD breeders.

Maybe it's different if you're looking for a show dog or a particular "look," but for me, an average well-informed, educated pet buyer, I can read what's out there on the HSDAA website, the HCA website, breeder websites, the OFA website, etc., and come to the conclusion that either a Havanese puppy or an HSD puppy, from the right breeder, would work for me. A puppy buyer who is doing his or her homework is not going to just read the HSDAA website and conclude that HSDs are superior and Havanese are inferior.


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## Leslie

Quoting Sunnygirl, "_I agree with the HSDAA that there are Havanese breeders out there who do not health test or who breed dogs with CD and other health issues (all those puppy mills, among others)._"

I'm sure it will be just a matter of time until the HSDs wind up in the puppy mills, too. It's sad to say but, there are just too many unscrupulous people out there who will always put $$ before the health and well-being of a puppy. Homework must be done no matter what kind of puppy you're thinking of buying.


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## Beamer

Melissa.. I totally agree with you...
I just do not understand why the 'superior' HSDAA would want to compete against the Havanese? If they want to leave the Havanese realm, then why not just enforce this rule and just not urge?? Or do they just want people to see these HSDAA dogs in the ring for marketing reasons??


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## Greg

I can only think of 2 or 3 people who are still showing in the AKC ring. I know we continue to write about it on this forum like it's happening all over the place...........but I think it is very few and far between.


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## Beamer

Hi Maryam..

Yeah, I bet alot of people who are on this forum might think the same thing as you. Kind of shy to post about your HSD puppy....

But having said that the HSDAA website clearly says:

"It is a separate and distinct breed, sharing a common gene pool, phenotype, and function."

This website is for sharing info and stories about the breed called the Havanese.

I guess other members have shared stories and pictures on non havanese dogs they own...not to mention cats and birds to!.. So, I guess its ok??

Anyhow, I'm sure someone will start up a HSDAA forum soon... Its just a matter of time! 

Ryan


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## anneks

maryam187 said:


> Reading through this thread (don't even want to read the 143 page one!) really made me feel uncomfortable about posting and bragging about my future dog, who turns out to be a HSD, because of my personal preferences. It makes me sad to know, that probably by me posting pics and bragging about him, will have people think I believe I have a 'superior' dog, just because I prefer his body structure or 'silky' hair.


I think anyone should feel comfortable posting here. I am assuming most forum members are here because we have a friendly group of people who like to share their knowledge and their dogs with each other. Whether you call your dog a havanese or HSD they are so similar that most of the issues will pertain to both. The knowledge and friendship to be gained here is great for anyone. As long as posts are made in a civil manner it shouldn't even matter if you have a dog! We have oooohed and awwwwed over birds, cats, kids you name it. Please feel free to post pictures and stories about your puppy. I am sure we will ooooh and awwww over him/her too!


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## Missy

My how this thread has grown... and so quickly. (couldn't we have just left it all in the different breeds thread?) I love that you are with us Maryam with your soon to be HSD. And as a pet owner--- I feel they are all Havanese and that we can all share info and insight into the particulars of this breed. Like all breeds- every dog is different-- but it is the anecdotes, and differences and similarities that we all love sharing on this site.


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## juliav

Anne,

I agree, everyone should feel comfortable posting on this forum. I myself have bored everyone not only with Bugsy, but also with my poodles and persians. :biggrin1:


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## Beamer

Ok, now I feel bad for part of my most recent post on this thread.. hehe..
In all seriousness, I still consider them all to be havanese and would love to see the pics of your new soon to be puppy!


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## maryam187

Ryan,
I honestly was about to comment your earlier post, but just discovered your most recent one. Well, this thread has been on my mind all day and I'd find it very unfair if my puppy wouldn't be considered a Havanese, cause that's what he'll be. He's basically a Havanese with the 'extra-features' of the HSD. And by 'extra-features' I don't mean superior ones!
I want to thank those who don't want to dismiss me and other HSD-owners from the Havanese Forum to the 'HSD-Forum' (don't even know, if one exists and honestly don't care), because I love this forum.
Maryam.


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## lfung5

All are welcome. This is a friendly forum. Just because a small group of breeders decide to call themselves something different, they are still Havanese. It is just a name.


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## juliav

Maryam,

We can't wait to see the pics of your baby! The only way I can relieve my MHS is by seeing somebody else's little ones. DH is NOT going to give into my MHS, so I won't be having any puppies for a while. Too bad, cause I swear my Bugsy has identity crisis and is convinced he is a very large stantdard poodle.


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## Beamer

Maryam!
Yeah, sorry about that.. i was hoping you would read forward and not post before that!
I was going to delete the post but got caught up with work...
Nothing against u of course!!!!!!! I just hate how this whole stupid split thing is happening... 
Do you have any pictures?? Honestly have not seen many pictures of the HSDAA... and the pics on the website are not to great quality. Plus most of the pics show such long hair I cant see any facial features...
Anyone have any pictures?


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## maryam187

Alright, I'll make sure I post pics as soon as the little man is born and I receive pics. After all I've been waiting for my Havana Dog (that's what I'm gonna call ALL of them now) since the day he was bred and want to show him to the whole wide Havanese Forum world, lol!
Maryam.
PS: only 10-14 days to go, YIPPIEH!


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## Greg

Maryam,

This is a nice place to post regardless of the breed of dog you own. Lots of nice people. It's just this topic that gets a little heated. I'm sure as time goes by it will lessen.


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## Missy

Greg, I have to admit when my last bit of MHS/puppyitis hit--- I went looking to your site for a fix. They are beautiful dogs! (not sure I would pass your security clearance if I were truly looking for a 3rd dog LOL) But my very imperfect Jasper has many of the qualities of a HSD-- his head, his shape, his height, just his fur is a little curlier- which is just fine with me (except for the mats) Kudos and thanks for keeping the tone of this thread friendlier than the last.


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## Greg

You are welcome Missy. And nice people always pass my security clearance...<grin>


----------



## lfung5

Ryan,
I agree with you. I am a face person and all the pictures of the HSD are covered up. I am so confused at what exactly the differences are. I can not really tell.
I think they have longer legs & muzzles but are they shorter or longer than the AKC havanese? Greg? Do you have any better pictures you can post? I have looked at all the HSD breeders websites and still can't see much differences. I see AKC havanese that look the same, but I guess that's the same LOOK you guys like? What is it about the face that is different? Body?


Greg, 
I find the people here are much nicer than the Havnaese yahoo forum. I also think this is just a subject that ruffels a few feathers.


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## radar_jones

Man this topic will eventually become a bigger thing that the original Thread and even that was a pain...

Derek


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## lfung5

It looks that way huh!


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## radar_jones

Yeah kinda like beating a Dead Horse in My Opinion....:frusty: 

Derek


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## Thumper

Well, one thing is probably certain.......the HSD website advertising seems to be working.

Actually, I think Sunnygirl mentioned that the HSD has a forum, but it probably isn't as big and/or active as this one. 


Kara


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## Sunnygirl

Yup, there are at least two HSD yahoo groups of which I'm aware, although they're not nearly as easy to navigate as this wonderful forum (thank you Melissa!)


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## Leslie

radar_jones said:


> Yeah kinda like beating a Dead Horse in My Opinion....:frusty:
> 
> Derek


:deadhorse: Like this, Derek???


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## radar_jones

Very Nice....I didn't think they had that one....funny

Derek


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## ypoole

:frusty: I doubt that it will lessen as long as you and others like you choose to keep your "supposed" new breed out in the public eye as the font from which all "healthy" dogs come forth. I note from your website that you believe the following "... Havana Silk Dog is a Havanese?? which has been certified by HSDAA as appropriately health-screened, phenotypically free of chondrodysplasia, and conforming to the current AKC Havanese standard."

The above statement is a slap in the face to all caring, concerned breeders of Havanese. It implies that the Havanese as recognized by the AKC, CKC, FCI, The Kennel Club, etc.... is not as healthy as your so-called "new" breed. As if any Havanese that have not been certified by the hsdaa (aka Diane Klumb or "Doc") is not good enough to meet your so-called health-screened guidelines. No wonder any decent Havanese breeder is disgusted with your and your co-horts antics. You (and I mean all of you) not just you Greg, lost your control of the HCA when people started questioning your groups' so-called expertise so you decided to take your ball and go home.

Not only that but you have the nerve to have a link to the HCA site from the Heart study. Talk about have your cake and eat it too!

Everyone HAS to read the latest Our Havanese, Volume 1 - Issue 6 July - August 2007. In it there is an article written by Liz (Vargo) Tustin who is Destiny Havanese. She joined the HCA in 1982, is a past president of the HCA and has spent 27 years devoted to the Havanese breed. She says and I quote "I take it personally when an organization, namely the Havana Silk Dog of America Association, publishes statements about Destiny that are not true. I find some of the text on the web site just pertaining to me to be so incorrect that I wonder how much else of the material is false. It is a puzzle to me that in all the supposed research done by the organization no one actually contacted me to verify any of the statements that were made about my kennel! So it's time to set the record straight. I purchased my foundation stock from Dorothy Goodale, as did every early breeder, &#8230;"

Liz wrote an excellent three page article which I strongly recommend to anyone that really wants to understand the situation and appreciate why so many of us are so outright disgusted with the HSDAA. Before you support them in any way I suggest you make yourself a bit more aware of the facts of the matter. I don't think you'll want to have much more to do with the HSDAA after that but to scrub your hands to wash off the dirt.

I am new to this group and breed and freely admit that my knowledge of Havanese is limited. However, I have an amazing mentor and I learn something new everyday about this wonderful, happy, joyful breed. I am also the proud owner of a true "Cuban" Havanese as I am a Canadian and therefore able to import from Cuba. She is no more or less a Havanese than my other Canadian-grown girl. And she is definitely not a hsd!!!!!:flame: :rant:

By the way, both my girls have their CHIC #'s and not only that but they have passed all those tests and more!!!

Ok, rant over, I'll go sit in my corner now.:canada:


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## radar_jones

Wow that's what I call True Canadain Grit....Good for YOU.....Good FOR You....LOL....

Derek


----------



## JASHavanese

Tom King said:


> We are not showing in the Havanese ring. Never really had any problem finishing one we put in the ring anyway. Never used a professional handler or specialed a dog so it's pretty obvious we're not showring based. My sweet wife and I raise these dogs because it's something we enjoy doing. As far as "for money", so far any profit from the dogs has at best only paid a small percentage of the property tax on our farm, so either we're really stupid or are able to divide fishes.


Sorry, I can't let that go by. The person who first suggested breaking off was one who moaned and complained that he had a hard time getting a dog finished. That's first hand knowledge and I listened to him say it over and over.


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## Greg

JASHavanese said:


> Sorry, I can't let that go by. The person who first suggested breaking off was one who moaned and complained that he had a hard time getting a dog finished. That's first hand knowledge and I listened to him say it over and over.


Jan how is the post by Tom (who shows in the Carolinas) similar to things you heard someone say in Texas?

Tom doesn't use a professional handler and he and Pam do easily finish what they take out.

You know that each part of the country has a different style. Many times if your dog goes to a different part of the country it has a more difficult time showing. I had that same issue finishing Bandit.


----------



## Greg

Ypoole

I appreciate your passion. I guess the only research you have left is contacting Kay Rodgers. She was the HCA Registrar who took over for Dorothy. She was also President of the HCA twice. Not only did she get her stock from Dorothy ......she also rebuilt the registry from scratch.

When you do contact her, make sure you ask her about who owned what dog and who got what dog from whom. People can say whatever they want, their dog registrations tell a different story.


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## JASHavanese

Greg said:


> I totally agree with Dawna about doing your own research.
> 
> New people, don't let any Havanese person or Havana Silk Dog person convince you............check it out yourself. Everyone on here has an agenda.


Greg you have a picture of my dog on your new website that is a HSD website. Please remove her from there. She is not HSD. I've asked and asked and asked you to remove her so please honor that request.
In case anyone is wondering, Greg and I are friends and will remain friends although our thoughts are worlds apart about this HSD stuff. I wish him well, he wishes me well, but I do not want my dog as a representative of something that she isn't.


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## JASHavanese

Greg said:


> Jan how is the post by Tom (who shows in the Carolinas) similar to things you heard someone say in Texas?
> 
> Tom doesn't use a professional handler and he and Pam do easily finish what they take out.
> 
> You know that each part of the country has a different style. Many times if your dog goes to a different part of the country it has a more difficult time showing. I had that same issue finishing Bandit.


I had the same issue paying for your dog to show too Greg. I guess it's a regional thing.


----------



## Dawna

Maryam,
We'll all be glad to see pics of your new baby! 
I also have a Havanese with 'extra features' and she is not an HSD. Although theoretically, she would qualify as an HSD, but that would mostly depend on who was wearin' the sombrero at the fiesta. hehe
She is a havanese who was bred by two excellent Havanese breeders who have spent years developing their lines for health, temperment and style.
Just felt like I should mention, for the new members, that many dedicated Havanese breeders have been committed to those 'extra features' for years and years. 
Dawna


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## JASHavanese

Tom King said:


> To visualize the differences:


Since Greg is posting here and has said all of his dogs are HSD, here's another visual. All of these dogs are HSD. http://www.sedosohavanasilkdogs.com/Our Dogs.htm


----------



## JASHavanese

Melissa Miller said:


> Dang it, I came back.  Now I can't be responsible for visits to this thread after the vino gets uncorked. HA.


I don't even drink but pour me a glass Melissa. This thread requires it ound: 
I think I'll go look around on the other threads :biggrin1:


----------



## marjrc

Maryam, I for one, would definitely miss your energetic posts and your funny and caring comments. HSD or not, you'll be getting a puppy that will bring much joy to your home and we all want to be a small part of that if you'll let us. I dont' think there are any forums around that are quite as informative, fun and compassionate as this one. But of course, as Queen Yakker here, I'm totally biased. 

I have seen HSD breeders' websites and their pictures and though many of their pups don't pop out as terribly "different" to my eyes, I do like the "silkier", for lack of a better word, hair. My Sammy is definitely a 'silky' Hav, though he's far from the standard any organization has decided on! lol He's a little too long, his hair just won't grow very much at all and is single-coated and his tail is wound up like a pig's! lol He has the smaller head and hair of the HSD though. Ricky, on the other hand, has that 'flag waving' tail that I have rarely seen. It seems like every photo of winning Havs has someone holding it's tail in a certain position. I'd love to see a more 'natural' tail. Ricky is a big guy though, and definitely does not have the silky hair everywhere exc. on his head and back of neck. Everywhere else, it's a bit cottony and wavy. 

So, go figure! I do know that both of them are Havanese through and through and I dont' know if I'd care where I got a 3rd Hav (IF that day ever comes.. sigh... ) except to know that the breeder did every health test required, was compassionate about their dogs and pups, checked me out as much as I'd check them out and so on and so on... all those things we suggest people do when wanting a good breeder. I see myself easily falling head over heels with any of these pups, silky or not.

So......... as long-winded as this is, I just wanted to say, Maryam, for you and anyone else considering getting an HSD, please don't ever feel like you aren't welcome here, o.k.? I think these questions are going to come up from time to time, but we all love our dogs and enjoy the civil and caring exchange between owners.


----------



## marjrc

Yvonne, I agree that that article definitely has to be read by anyone wondering about all this. Great point!  

There is something to be said about how things 'went down' and the words used by some to explain their position so I can completely understand breeders' and Havanese lovers' frustrations and anger. I think Kimberly is the one that said (or maybe it was Melissa) that HSDAA is simply a club. For now, I think that is correct. I'm not sure what the future holds, but hopefully the Havanese won't be dragged through the mud just to boost this club. That just isn't nice.


----------



## JASHavanese

Dawna said:


> Maryam,
> We'll all be glad to see pics of your new baby!
> I also have a Havanese with 'extra features' and she is not an HSD. Although theoretically, she would qualify as an HSD, but that would mostly depend on who was wearin' the sombrero at the fiesta. hehe
> 
> Dawna


Oh Dawna, you do have my curiosity peaked when you say extra features but I don't know if it's worth wading through 12 pages of this to find out what they are. I do know your Bunny Blu (hope I spelled that right) is a BEAUTY though.


----------



## JASHavanese

ypoole said:


> :frusty:
> 
> Everyone HAS to read the latest Our Havanese, Volume 1 - Issue 6 July - August 2007. In it there is an article written by Liz (Vargo) Tustin who is Destiny Havanese. She joined the HCA in 1982, is a past president of the HCA and has spent 27 years devoted to the Havanese breed. canada:


Her letter is on my website and she gave me permission to post it there. I agree it's a good read and it's nice to see the record set straight. http://www.jashavanese.net./havaneseroots.html


----------



## maryam187

*Thanks everyone*

for the kind words! That definitely helped me remember why I love this forum so much! Counting the days to show pics of my 'superior silky' dog ound: 
Maryam.


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## Thumper

Amy R. said:


> But Greg, weren't the original Havs or Havana Silk dogs, if you will, WHITE? As in Blanquitos de Havana or de Cuba? So why aren't white dogs a requirement of your standard?


I meant to comment on this.

Hey Amy......We can start a club? How about calling them "Blanquitos de Havana"???? ound:

But first, You need to teach me how to pronounce it. 

Kara


----------



## Amy R.

Yes, and they'll all be required to wear denim coveralls. To cover-up their short, bowed legs-----no long, straight legs allowed in OUR club! .ound: 

It's Blanc---kee----toes (rhymes with Fritos) :biggrin1:


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## Thumper

Amy R. said:


> Yes, and they'll all be required to wear denim coveralls. To cover-up their short, bowed legs-----no long, straight legs allowed in OUR club! .ound:
> 
> It's Blanc---kee----toes (rhymes with Fritos) :biggrin1:


LMAO!!!!!!!!!! You are a riot! ound: ound:

And, ehh....when we are done collecting all the membership fees, we could take the money and go to some exotic beach and sip Pina Coladas. :whoo: With our lil' white Denim dogs in tote. I'll bring my stroller, you bring the puppy purse.

Kara


----------



## Amy R.

It's a plan, sistah! :whoo:


----------



## Thumper

Oh....but...I think we should include ANY Havanese with ANY white on them, and even a few without white (if they are our friends!) We can make more $$ that way, thus.......more shopping! 

Kara


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## Julie

I don't know why as a pet owner,I can't just say "the hell with this""let someone else deal with it".........
In the past 2 weeks or less,my family had a Grandma pass away,a very close family friend(same day)and we just came back from the funeral of my mother-in-law who passed away as well.To make it worse,my birthday fell on a "funeral day"---:sadlease do not post sympathy's on this thread----but that is where I have been.Probably a good thing,as outspoken as I am.
This whole breed split is sad,but people just need to move on....I feel if the HSD is supposed to be better--then go--be better.Quit stirring things up and not expect responses on this forum or any other.Why would you need to do this?People who stir fires get burnt!:flame:
I also feel that people need to do research when deciding on any dog--it doesn't matter if it is a havanese or a collie or whatever.There is not a soul on the planet that doesn't think their dog,their kids,husband,whatever.. are better,more well-behaved,more handsome etc.then others.This is just human nature.It is how much tact,how much compassion,how much respect etc. you have for others that matters.I'll be honest--I think some havs on here are not so good looking,a few down right ugly,and I may think my guy is better looking then theirs---but I certainly am not going to come on here and say that,hurt their feelings,lose new forum friends,and then expect everyone else to think my dog is as wonderful and fantastic as" I " may think he is.If someone has a HSD and they are happy with it,then great--it is how you come off to others that will matter.If you think your dog is better then mine and you post it--God help ya!:beckyI'm trying to inject humor here)and a smile---but this is a great welcoming forum with alot of havanese pet owners/breeders etc.We seem to embrace everyone.I honestly don't think anyone has an agenda on this forum,with the exception of perhaps a few,and we still love them too:hug:


----------



## mckennasedona

Kara and Amy,
Can I join your club? I have a white Havanese!! I have a cream one too so I'm thinking something like cafe au lait Hav.

Julie, good post! As long as we all do our homework and love our dogs totally for who and what they are, that's all we need to do. I must admit though, I haven't seen any ugly dogs posted here but then I have a hard time calling any dog ugly... 

Susan


----------



## Thumper

Yes, of course! ALL forum *friends* can join  You even don't have to have any "white" on your Havanese if we like ya 

Julie, I am sending you a PM. But, yes....I hear ya, nobody wants to be *taunted* by anyone else that they have a "better" dog. It does feel like a kick in the stomach. But, this is Melissa's forum..if there ever comes a day where so much "Havanese" bashing is going on here, I'm sure she would probably protect us. 


Kara


----------



## Sunnygirl

Julie said:


> There is not a soul on the planet that doesn't think their dog,their kids,husband,whatever.. are better,more well-behaved,more handsome etc.then others.


I'd like to go on the record as being one soul on the planet who knows, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that her kids are not more well-behaved than others. OK, maybe there's one or two other kids out there, somewhere, that I haven't met yet, whose behavior is worse than that of my kids. . .


----------



## Julie

Thumperlove said:


> But, yes....I hear ya, nobody wants to be *taunted* by anyone else that they have a "better" dog. It does feel like a kick in the stomach.
> 
> Kara


This is where the problem stems from I think---if the HSD people had not been so derogatory to the havanese breeders/people I think the split would have and could of been cordial and perhaps everyone could of worked together,but seperate.It is a shame,they did not handle it better(from my perspective).I think of it like a mom though---if another person came up to you and said my kid is better then yours at football,it might make you mad,but you could think,well okay--he really is better at football then my kid--but my kid is better at soccer and cute!However if the person came up to you and said my kid is better at football and soccer and your kid is butt-ass ugly.......that would be fighting words.It really is a kick in the stomach.I read Dorothy Goodall's article and Liz's article---and this is what they got(I feel).How sad-----2 people who helped us get the dogs we have now(and theirs).Those women deserve respect-whether anyone thinks they made every decision they made correctly or not doesn't matter.To me,it's like picking on my little disabled son,or an old person in a nursing home etc.A dam_ shame!


----------



## TnTWalter

*SIDENOTE....*

Julie, I've missed you and your wit!!! :hug:

And now back to your regularly scheduled program....

:fencing:

op2:


----------



## Julie

Sunnygirl said:


> I'd like to go on the record as being one soul on the planet who knows, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that her kids are not more well-behaved than others. OK, maybe there's one or two other kids out there, somewhere, that I haven't met yet, whose behavior is worse than that of my kids. . .


LOL!I actually started that registry!eace: It is called the "reality check for parents club"!I have a son who is now 19-------whoo-------a real handful!I always thought I wonder what he did first ?There are people though who think their kids do nothing wrong!


----------



## Paige

TnTWalter said:


> Julie, I've missed you and your wit!!! :hug:
> 
> And now back to your regularly scheduled program....
> 
> :fencing:
> 
> op2:


I've been missing you too Julie, glad your back


----------



## dboudreau

Thumperlove said:


> Yes, of course! ALL forum *friends* can join  You even don't have to have any "white" on your Havanese if we like ya
> Kara


I'm glad you added that Kara, Sam has no white, but I want to join your club. Can Sam wear his red suit?


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## Thumper

Oh gosh..Sam is a STAR in his red suit  I say YES! Heck, Sam is star no matter what..

Kara


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## Julie

TnTWalter said:


> And now back to your regularly scheduled program....
> 
> :fencing:
> 
> op2:


ound:You mean it shows that I grew up on a farm with 3 older brothers beating me up all the time?ound:


----------



## Julie

maryam187 said:


> for the kind words! That definitely helped me remember why I love this forum so much! Counting the days to show pics of my 'superior silky' dog ound:
> Maryam.


I'd love to see pictures of your dog...but just remember the forum your on!ound:HAVANESE!
Silky?Superior?Oh--I think NOT!eace:


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## JASHavanese

Originally Posted by Thumperlove 
Yes, of course! ALL forum *friends* can join You even don't have to have any "white" on your Havanese if we like ya 
Kara



dboudreau said:


> I'm glad you added that Kara, Sam has no white, but I want to join your club. Can Sam wear his red suit?


Oh good, I was ready to get out the bleach. ound:


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## mckennasedona

Speaking of bleach......not really..... but I was wondering if any of those temporary hair colors that people use for Halloween would be safe to use on a dog. McKenna is white and it might be fun to give her pink, purple or even black streaks in her hair as part of a Halloween costume. Sedona could go green or red with her cream coloring.


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## radar_jones

The Bride Of FrankenHav....ound: 

Derek


----------



## JASHavanese

mckennasedona said:


> Speaking of bleach......not really..... but I was wondering if any of those temporary hair colors that people use for Halloween would be safe to use on a dog. McKenna is white and it might be fun to give her pink, purple or even black streaks in her hair as part of a Halloween costume. Sedona could go green or red with her cream coloring.


KoolAid is safe. Chris Christianson (sp?) has some paint on colors. I used their white on the dark poodle at Halloween one year and it showed really well on the coat and washed out easily. KoolAid takes a while to wash out.


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## Thumper

YAY! We are growing!!!!!!! Blanco FRITOS!!!!!!!!! :whoo: 

LOL

Hmm....Susan, I would do a small small test, like on the hair near the PAW and leave it on for atleast 6 hours (because that is probably how long you will have it on for Halloween) and THEN try to wash it out and see what happens.

I think fur is more porous than hair, so it may take longer to wear off. Then again, some of those sprays look like they are oil based, and those might be easy?

Just take a realistic test run

OH.....what you can do, Is buy those colored hair extension things? I know they sell them on ebay and maybe Claires, but they clip in.

Kara


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## Thumper

Jan, I heard Kool Aid can take weeks, if not months to come out? Yikes.

I tried the white stuff from CC too, but it is so pasty, I didn't like it. Maybe I didnt use it right?

Kara


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## JASHavanese

Thumperlove said:


> Jan, I heard Kool Aid can take weeks, if not months to come out? Yikes.
> 
> I tried the white stuff from CC too, but it is so pasty, I didn't like it. Maybe I didnt use it right?
> 
> Kara


I didn't have that problem and used a paint brush on the poodles. I wonder if you painted it on really thick? I tried a toothbrush to paint it on and that didn't work well at all.
You're probably right about KoolAid. I haven't tried it so I don't know. I'm eyeing Bandit and wonder if she'd look pretty in pink ound:


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## Thumper

Bandit would look AWESOME in pink. GO for it. Hey, if you could create a "pink" puppy......Hollywood would be lining up at your door for them! lol

Kara


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## JASHavanese

Thumperlove said:


> Bandit would look AWESOME in pink. GO for it. Hey, if you could create a "pink" puppy......Hollywood would be lining up at your door for them! lol
> 
> Kara


I could call them HPD :laugh: I may just play around with the white on her coat but need to wait until she stops nursing. LOL what if I turn the babies pink too ound:


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## Thumper

JASHavanese said:


> I could call them HPD :laugh: I may just play around with the white on her coat but need to wait until she stops nursing. LOL what if I turn the babies pink too ound:


hahaha!!! ound:

The HPD's would be a HUGE success, of course, you have to tell people the pink makes them smarter and healthier 

I saw these lil' doggie wigs at PetsMart, and I even tried to put it on Guccho to see what she looked like, she ripped it right OFF!. haha. They had just brought them out for the Halloween display, otherwise....I may not have put it on her, I'm weird like that. Lice, fleas......ya never know.

Kara


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## Tom King

Just a note to comment on my post, I think #16, with the picture. edited to add: Posh, our black and white dog in front, went on to become the first HSDAA Champion. The other dog was AKC high point Havanese 2 years in a row. So both can be considered "Ideal" dogs in their registries. This was an AKC show. Posh won Breed and Group 2 that day. The high point Havanese got BOS. The dogs that beat Posh in the Group ring were all time highest point dogs in their breeds. There were 38 Havanese in the breed ring that day-it was not some small show. It was the first time the Judge had used a Havanese in Group. Posh finished his AKC Championship in the next show. We have never specialed a dog, never bought and ad in TNT or Showsight, or used a handler.

Dawna said something like neither were typical of the average Havanese. I agree. The dog in front is so far the only dog that I know of who has gone through the HSD evaluation with a perfect score. His tail may not be as high as the ideal according to the Cuban standard but the vertebra doesn't touch his back so he gets maximum points on that one part of the 40. So he is not the average Havana Silk Dog either. It's interesting that as he produces offspring the tails are coming up more. I have some pictures of his offspring but don't know which ones are going to be used in the calander so I don't want to use them yet. 

In the Havanese ring some judges said he was the best Havanese they have seen while others said his movement was too extreme. His movement is considered ideal for the Havana Silk Dog. Much simpler when you know what you want. That's what we want to produce. If you read the oldest standard, his movement matches that but not to the dumbed down movement in the 1982 Havanese standard-I forget how it has been changed since then but it never went all the way back to the oldest version.

The other dog was then one of the top pointed Havanese. I really don't remember which show this was but that Havanese was shown every weekend somewhere by a professional handler, heavily advertised, and highly pointed regardless of which one it is. The current Havanese standard calls for the height to be divided in thirds, which the first dog is exactly (he's ours so I know)-that's floor to elbow, elbow to top of withers, top of withers to top of head. Coat not so profuse as to obscure the outline, etc., etc. The second dog may be the top pointed Havanese in AKC points for 2 years in a row if it was that show-don't remember which show this was. 

Anyway, neither are the average Havanese. But standards shouldn't be changed to fit the average dog. They should define the ideal. Both of these dogs are considered close to the ideal for different groups of people. One group exists, and has existed in Cuba for a long time-the one using the Cuban standard which is different than the group showing under the FCI. Note that a lot of the pictures of "Havanese" that you see on some Cuban sites are dogs sent there from Europe because it's cool to also get a Cuban Championship.

When we had all the standards laid out in front of us when they came up with the current Havanese standard, I really liked the Cuban standard but some people thought it was too specific. I like specific. The horse standards we breed to are very specific. 

As an aside, one of the Warmblood breeds, some of our babies, the Oldenburgs, went through a split over a decade ago. Now there are the German Oldenburgs and the North American Oldenburgs. People breeding NA Oldenburgs believe they are right. They say they are breeding German horses. Oldenburg is a region in Germany. These splits are not that rare. Soime people never get over them. Others move on.

Just thought I'd stick this next part in:
The Cuban standard is where the reference to a short upper arm came from-although in this country it's relative to the scapula and in Cuba it's relative to the lower leg. So far I have not seen a "Havanese" with a short upper arm that was not either shorter than the scapula or the lower leg. I have seen a few with a long upper arm that had different movement, too much height, or even a reverse topline-even in the National Specialty ring last year in Richmond.

"Short on leg" or "short legs" must mean different things in different countries or languages. In this country, under AKC, short legs mean that the distance from the floor to the elbow is shorter than elbow to top of withers as with Corgis and others. A dog can't be short on leg and have equal proportions as in the 1/3s measurement. Those standards that say it both ways in other languages need to be changed here to pick one or it will cause too much confusion as it used to when the Havanese first started showing AKC. One judge at a MAJOR show was asked why he picked that dog. He said it was the only one in the ring with short legs. It had CD.

On the white color: Pick your version of history but it needs to have something to back it up. Queen Victoria's first two were black. One silvered. They look very much like our dogs. That was long enough ago for me. All the different standards are written down. That's history that can't be discredited. Look at the old Hotlines when the last split took place. The "Original Havanese" split off from the others. Do the "Original Havanese" look anything like Queen Victoria's Bichons Habanero's or any Cuban Bichon Habanero??? Not to me. There are still people who breed "Original Havanese".

The change is here so just try to get over it. We make no claims different than we have ever made. We still guarantee our dogs against congenital health problems and even bowed legs. We will show you what's under the fur of any of them. We personally don't care if AKC accepts the registry or not. We like the registry and the way it's laid out. With our horses the inspections are always worth more than any show scores. I've been calling for years to set up some sort of inspections for the dogs other than just putting them in the ring. That was shot down when we were trying to come up with a Conformation Certificate because "It was prejudiced against dogs with bowed legs". Yes it was. I have always been and still am, especially now. 

It's also very nice that owners of companion dogs can show their dogs. Dogs will get extra credit for numbers of offspring that score "Excellent" at evaluations and not number of Champions. I like that too.

We are not dissing Havanese. AKC still says the dogs we have that are registered as Havanese are Havanese. We are just going in this direction which is not different than the direction we have been going in. Which direction will the Havanese go in?


----------



## mckennasedona

Thank you Jan and Kara. I didn't mean to hijack the topic and I'll post my question in the Halloween thread.

:focus: 

Susan


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## Thumper

mckennasedona said:


> Thank you Jan and Kara. I didn't mean to hijack the topic and I'll post my question in the Halloween thread.
> 
> :focus:
> 
> Susan


No problemo! People will come to this thread eager to see the mudslinging, and ehh......a bunch of women gabbing about haircoloring....or FURcoloring. ound:

Tsk tsk.

Kara


----------



## Amy R.

ANYONE can join Kara's and my Blanquitos de Habanero Club. Your dog needn't be white, it only needs to have a snow-white, pure Havanese *HEART.* :biggrin1: The one _strict_ requirement of our very exclusive club is a sense of humour, a love of beaches (preferably in Cuba) and, of course, a penchant for pina coladas.

Tom, honestly, after reading your incredibly dense post, my head is beginning to hurt. I need to ESCAPE THIS THREAD. .. . it is like a terrible and cruel addiction. . . . and go mix myself a drink. . . . arty: arty: :wink: :wink:


----------



## juliav

Hey Amy,

Count me in as a member of your club.  Bugsy is cream, but his heart is as pure as freshly fallen snow!!!


----------



## Amy R.

Julia, adorable Bugsy is a charter member! :biggrin1:


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## juliav

Whoo-hoo!!!! :biggrin1:


----------



## Sunnygirl

Hey, Nico's almost white. Er, at least a tiny little patch of hair on his belly is. He can be a blank frito, can't he?


----------



## Julie

Greg said:


> I think one should also point out that both breeds have breeders who breed for the wrong reasons. In fact, there is no right or wrong..........just a preference as to what breed one wants to breed.
> 
> No need to fight about it


If a person is looking for a healthy puppy,they need to do research and check heavily into the testing claimed with either havanese or havana silk dogs.Both have breeders that are good,breeders that are bad.......as time goes on,you'll probably be able to get a HS at a puppy mill near you too.Sadly it happens to every breed.

Well said Greg!


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## Amy R.

Sunnygirl, you bet! I LOVE black fritos, LOL. Like I said, EVERYONE is a member of our very exclusive club!


----------



## marjrc

I had to check twice. Thought I was in the wrong thread when I saw all this partying going on!!! LOL :whoo: I'll have me some drinks please, just keep me in the shade. thanks 

Tom, I appreciate your posts and your explanations. A lot of what you say makes sense and a lot of what I hear from Hav breeders makes sense too. I agree that anyone looking into buying either type of Havanese needs to do their homework. Lord help them! lol I actually think that having all pups, show ones and "pet" ones, evaluated is a brilliant idea! I'm disappointed and surprised at how little interest many breeders have on any of their pups unless they are the show pups. 

Thank you! 

Julie. Amen. ((hugs))


----------



## Amy R.

Yeah, Marj, it just seems to me that a little levity is needed in this thread. There are such strong feelings on the subject, and a lot of complex info to digest. In between posts, I need a brewsky,


----------



## radar_jones

My Favoite Drink is a Caesar. I love Em' Spicy and I love Em' to keep coming......ound: 

Derek


----------



## Thumper

What the heck is a Ceaser?? Is it like a bloody mary?

Yep.......nothing wrong with softening the tone in here a bit with a little humor. I have friends on both sides of this, so it is really tough when so much goes on, that we dont' even know about. I think we only hear bits and parts of stuff, which leaves me all the more confused. lol....so I'm perfectly content talking about coctails, beaches, sweaters and so on.



Kara


----------



## Amy R.

Clearly, this thread is driving us all to drink arty: Seriously, it is so difficult to reconstruct the history of these dogs, I don't know how _anyone_ can actually claim to do it, since even the breeders who were THERE disagree. It has all become mind-numbing and academic, IMHO, unless one is a breeder. When the dust settles in a couple of years, perhaps we"ll gain insight.


----------



## Paige

Amy R. said:


> Clearly, this thread is driving us all to drink arty:


Don't you just hate it when that happens.


----------



## Julie

You know Paige--If you look at your signature picture with Axl in the water--and blink a few times,it looks like she is swimming and the waves are moving!

No--I haven't had anything stronger then a diet pepsi!I do have a headache though!Maybe that helps move the water!:laugh:


----------



## Doggie Nut

I've been away for a few days and wasn't able to get on line. First of all I want to say to everyone and especially Greg how very sorry I am for my comment. I definitely did not mean it in the way it was perceived and feel very bad that people were hurt and/or offended by it. At this point I won't even try to explain what I was trying to say....even though Melissa did a good job. I am not a confrontational person by nature and have always tried to put others feelings first.The fact that I didn't take into consideration how others might view this was short sighted and selfish of me! Please everyone, especially you Greg, forgive me for having a "stick your foot in your mouth" moment. I will do my best in the future to contribute positive answers that help bring change and reconciliation and not add to the problem by being a problem. TIA!


----------



## Amy R.

That is a very sweet mea culpa, Vicki, and I apologize if I added to the mix. I know you didn't mean to offend.


----------



## Greg

Vicki,

Thanks. That made my day.


----------



## Greg

radar_jones said:


> My Favoite Drink is a Caesar. I love Em' Spicy and I love Em' to keep coming......ound:
> 
> Derek


I love Caesars too. My wife introduced them to me. I especially like them at the Keg.


----------



## Doggie Nut

Greg, Your gracious acceptance has made mine!:biggrin1:


----------



## Missy

I go to work for a day and see what happens?-- we have 2 or is it 3 new breeds!!!

*"Blan-kee- tos"* (to rhyme with fritos) 
there is the *"Black-Fritos"* (or just Fritos since all Havs feet smell like fritos) and the *"HPD's" * do the pups turn pink after you've hada couple Pina Coladas out in the Cuban sun?

Kara, Amy, Can Jasper, Cash and I join your club? (ok, DH too) hearts are white as snow--- But there is one problem--- I can't do Pina Colada's (coconut allergy) but I love Mojitos. Can we join please!!


----------



## Paige

I was wondering if my three can join, they are all different colors. What about Axl, I know she's not a hav, but she makes a good hav Mom. She can be the protector of all havs.


----------



## k2havs

Tom King said:


> We are just going in this direction which is not different than the direction we have been going in.


Could we get a map? :brick: Sorry, but the HSD direction is almost as clear as the Ms SC answer on why many Americans can't find the US on a map. How about a popcorn break? op2:

We want to join the 'Fritos' club, it makes more sense and sounds like a lot more fun. arty: 
Karen


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## juliav

I want a drink to, but I prefer sour apple martinis, or a glass of red wine, but not at the same time.


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## Kathy

I'm with you Karen. Let's have a beach party of hairy little dogs, that love to runlikehell, are devoted, and love unconditionaly.


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## Kathy

Tom King said:


> The change is here so just try to get over it. We make no claims different than we have ever made. We still guarantee our dogs against congenital health problems and even bowed legs. We will show you what's under the fur of any of them. We personally don't care if AKC accepts the registry or not. We like the registry and the way it's laid out. With our horses the inspections are always worth more than any show scores. I've been calling for years to set up some sort of inspections for the dogs other than just putting them in the ring. That was shot down when we were trying to come up with a Conformation Certificate because "It was prejudiced against dogs with bowed legs". Yes it was. I have always been and still am, especially now.
> 
> It's also very nice that owners of companion dogs can show their dogs. Dogs will get extra credit for numbers of offspring that score "Excellent" at evaluations and not number of Champions. I like that too.
> 
> We are not dissing Havanese. AKC still says the dogs we have that are registered as Havanese are Havanese. We are just going in this direction which is not different than the direction we have been going in. Which direction will the Havanese go in?


Tom,
I beg to differ with you about "dissing the Havanese". That is exactly what your leaders have done, over and over again. All I can say is like you, "get over it". Go your own way, leave Havanese lovers alone. You have declared to be another breed, following another standard, so be it, but that just means you no longer support or are breeding to the AKC Havanese standard, which means you are not Havanese now, no matter what AKC or the gene's in your dog are "saying". I hope to see you again someday competing in the AKC ring with your new breed.

I don't mean any of the above to be rude or disrespectful, just being honest as you are being.


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## JASHavanese

Julie said:


> You know Paige--If you look at your signature picture with Axl in the water--and blink a few times,it looks like she is swimming and the waves are moving!
> 
> No--I haven't had anything stronger then a diet pepsi!I do have a headache though!Maybe that helps move the water!:laugh:


Hm.....I've been sitting here blinking and can't get the water moving. Next time I have a headache I'll have to try it.


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## Amy R.

Missy, Reece, Karen, Kathy-----yep, you're in, sistahs, let's head for the beach with our sweet Havs, and please pass the Fritos and Mojitos!


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## Cheryl

Can Brutus, Roxie and I join the Frito Gang also? You are delightful company and I would not miss it for the world--even without the refreshments! (and both of my dogs have some white. Mine is just grey!)


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## pjewel

I'm applying for membership in the fritos club too and I'm very relieved that Milo has some white so I don't have to rely on being liked. Oh, and would someone do me a favor and order my pina colada soon. I need it after slogging through this thread. Wow, I'm tired.:drum:


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## JASHavanese

pjewel said:


> I'm applying for membership in the fritos club too and I'm very relieved that Milo has some white so I don't have to rely on being liked. Oh, and would someone do me a favor and order my pina colada soon. I need it after slogging through this thread. Wow, I'm tired.:drum:


LOL this thread is mild and thankfully switched gears. That was nice to see :biggrin1: 
All of my havs have some white in them. Send the membership form please


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## Julie

Jan--I haven't seen any new pictures of Bandit's puppies......did I miss them?If not,we want pictures!!!:becky:


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## abuelashavanese

Mojo wants to be a Fritos too! He can sing and dance :dance: -- ya got to love a singin' hav!


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## Julie

Jonda-
I love the coloring on your hav in the avatar!Gorgeous colors!


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## abuelashavanese

Thanks Julie ! That's Mojo the Frito!


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## abuelashavanese

MoJo wants to know if all the girl Fritos will show him their legs... he wants to see what's under their skirts :whoo:


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## JASHavanese

Julie said:


> Jan--I haven't seen any new pictures of Bandit's puppies......did I miss them?If not,we want pictures!!!:becky:


I have some new ones but the batteries on the camera were ready to go and the pictures are dark  I'll have to get new batteries tomorrow.
They keep me laughing with their antics. They get down on their front paws with their hineys in the air and tell each other off, then the attack game is on, then it's on to kissing time.
I gave them a new food and we put it in there for them to eat. My husband asked them how they liked it and MyKee sat in it. I guess that answered that. :laugh: 
I'm having a heck of a time getting good pictures of the little girl ViKee. She's black and her coat is so shiny that it looks like she has white lines on her in pictures. I think I need to take some classes in photography.


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## abuelashavanese

Well, I had a long talk with MoJo and explained that girl Fritos have been brought up better than that and their mommas taught them to watch out for boys with just one thing on their mind. 

And he agrees that FRITOS deserve RESPECT ! :decision:


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## judith

mojo forgets frito girls wear overalls not skirts!


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## abuelashavanese

Just goes to show ya' "Fritos have Smart Mommas"


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## JASHavanese

judith said:


> mojo forgets frito girls wear overalls not skirts!


LOL you guys are cracking me up. ound:


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## MopTop Havanese

Jan~ Take your black girl out in the sunshine for picture taking....OR you can send her here to the CA sun and I can do it for you.......but then I get to keep the puppy....! :whoo:


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## Amy R.

Fritos forever---:rockon: :rockon: :rockon:---this club's growing even faster than the HSDA!


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## Thumper

Wowwee!!!!!!!! Club Fritos has GROWN  :whoo: We can really confuse the AKC now with the THIRD Cuban breed ound: I think it will drive the AKC and judges to drink too!

Skirts are too skanky for Frito girls! ound: Overalls, pants, jeans, etc for the ladies. Unless we are at the beach, then they can wear Hav-kinis...and the boys can wear Hav-trunks. Here is Guccho gardening with her daddy, in her overalls 

Kara


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## Sunnygirl

Gucci has the most gorgeous coat (and those overalls are adorable - no skank factor there). I can feel how silky she is just by looking at her. Kara, do you want to come groom Nico? And while you're here you could groom my 3 daughters - I'll bet you'd be good at that, too. Easy on the mink oil with them, though.


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## Thumper

LOL! Thanks  Actually, she was having a really bad "FUR" day that day, I thought. I thought she looked a little frazzled, and the Hello Kitty Barette kept falling out. I love those overalls, especially the way her tail hangs out of them. I just ordered a butload of sweaters, they are all stacked in a big pile in my sewing room (hidden from the hubby! lol)

I really don't use alot of mink oil, I don't want her greasy.  But for white/cream fur, it is really soft. (Believe me, I've compared her coat to other white Havs) 

I'd love to come "groom" Nico!  I would probably spend more time doting on him and playing than actually grooming, though! hehe
Kara


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## SMARTY

What is this???? I stay away from this thread to keep my sanity,come back to find there is a new club, new clothes, a beach party with drinks and we were not invited.

I’m sure our invitation is in the mail, if not please send, Smarty is crying her eyes out:hurt:


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## Julie

Jan-I hope you post pictures of your puppies!Get those batteries girl!hoto:
They have got to be just as cute as ever......

Katie--I love your new avatar!That's Jester isn't it?


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## Amy R.

Sandi, Please dry Smarty's tears right now, cause *everyone's* invited to join this very elite club. I believe it has definitely evolved into a Havanese Fritos Beach Club, at this point, lol .

Kara, you are toooo funny, love the new club dress code! 
Gucci looks adorable in her coveralls, and just so pretty! Beautifully groomed. Where you find the time to do all you do, I will never know! Biscuit's denims haven't arrived yet, and we leave for CO tomorrow, so hopefully they'll here when I get home next week! Exciting!


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## Paige

Julie said:


> Katie--I love your new avatar!That's Jester isn't it?


I noticed that new avatar, he looks gorgeous.


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## mckennasedona

Oh yippee! A reason to buy dog clothes. I can tell hubby that overalls are a REQUIREMENT to join the Fritos Beach club! He'll ask me just how many clubs are we joining??? We recently joined Havanese Rescue and applied to join the Capitol Havanese Club and now this! Wait till I tell him that the only requirements are sweet Havs, a love of the beach and a penchant for a nice tropical drink! That's his kinda club!! I don't like Pina Colada's though. I hate coconut. Maybe a margarita will suffice?? 

Susan


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## Amy R.

*photos of actual Cuban dogs*

:focus: I just realized that I own the Havanese book, translated from Spanish, by Zoila Portuondo Guerra, the founder of the Cuban Havanese club. It's one of those Kennel Club series books & I got it on Amazon. I bought it when I first got Biscuit, since I knew next to nothing about either dogs or Havanese. Most ironically, given the current debate, Liz Vargo Tustin's dogs (of the so-called Arizona Destiny dogs---be sure to read her much more nuanced view of history in the link Jan provided ) were selected by Ms Guerra to grace the cover. Anyway, current politics aside, there are many marvelous photos of Cuban Havanese in Cuba. The main difference I see is the silkier coat. There's a fabulous shot of a Hav in a Cuban tobacco field, just classic.


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## Amy R.

Susan we are also serving Mojitos, and will be sure to add Margaritas to the bar card. And Caesars, too, of course, though I'm not exactly sure what that is.


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## RedHeadedGator

Greg said:


> I love Caesars too. My wife introduced them to me. I especially like them at the Keg.


Hey Gang! What's a Caesars? I feel like I'm missing out on something good!!


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## MopTop Havanese

You guys are a crack up~!!
Yes, that is Jester in my avitar (thanks for the compliments!).....professionaly taken by the one and only Melissa Miller at the Nationals in Denver. Wooo Hoooo! :whoo:


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## Amy R.

Jester is beyond gorgeous. I've had my eye on him since I joined this forum. If I ever get another Hav, I want one just like him!


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## MopTop Havanese

Here is the full picture....so you can all see what an awesome job Melissa does~ Thanks again girl~!! :biggrin1:


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## Thumper

Jester is BEAUTIFUL!!!!!!!! Great picture! I'm bringing Gucci to Dallas to see Melissa for a photo shoot 

Kara


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## Amy R.

Stunning!


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## Lina

That is one beautiful picture of Jester! Maybe at next year's National I can get Melissa to take a picture of Kubrick for me.


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## Julie

Katie he is awesome!
What a handsome guy!I have been drawn to him,since you had his puppy pictures as an avatar.His markings are really unique.The name couldn't be more perfect!


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## abuelashavanese

Thumperlove said:


> I love those overalls, especially the way her tail hangs out of them.


MoJo totally agrees - Gucci is one hot Frito!


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## abuelashavanese

Jester is a very handsome fellow. What a great coat and beautiful loving face. :clap2: :clap2:

Melissa does have a way to make those puppies "pop" in a picture. She's the best! :first:


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## Missy

Jester is stunning... I love his markings


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## Jane

Katie and Melissa,

That is a beautiful photo of Jester!! Wowie!!


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## Sunnygirl

That's a fabulous photo of a very handsome dog. Melissa, if you're ever passing through the Chicago area with your camera, you let me know 'cause Nico would love to show you his pearly whites. (Shoot, I knew he had more white on him - he can definitely be a Frito!)


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## marjrc

WOW! What a stunning photo of Jester! Melissa, you did an awesome job there, though I have to say you had a pretty stunning model to start with.  He's a beauty, Katie! 

Amy, I wonder if you could scan some of those pics you're talking about... is that possible for you? IF you have a scanner at home, otherwise, don't worry about it. I'm just curious.


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## juliav

Katie,

I love Jester's picture, he is absolutely drop dead gorgeous!!! You better be careful, as I might just drive up for a little dognapping.  Is it actually a word???


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## Amy R.

Sorry, Marj, I don't have a scanner. I can't even post pix, yet---I am hopeless!


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## MaddiesMom

Katie- Jester is one of the most stunning Havanese I've ever seen. His markings are so unique! He is one *GORGEOUS* boy!


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## dboudreau

Fabulous picture of Jester. Katie you must be so proud of your boy.


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## dboudreau

RedHeadedGator said:


> Hey Gang! What's a Caesars? I feel like I'm missing out on something good!!


"Ceasars" are a mixed drink of "Clamato" juice and vodka garnished with celery. I believe they are a Canadian invention.


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## RedHeadedGator

Thanks, Debbie! I may have to try it this weekend. Sounds like it might be a Canadian version of the Bloody Mary :tea:


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## Greg

They help one get past a hang over.........errrr I mean I've heard they help.


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## radar_jones

I'm gonna grab a six pack of Caesars from the Liquor Store on the way home from work. Nice and Ssssssssssspicccccccccyyyyyyyyyy......Cheers to Everyone.

"You Only Live Life Once, But if You Live it Right, Once is Enough."
-me ( I Think)

Derek


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## Doggie Nut

Did I hear someone say "Come to Dallas"?? Yeah! I have a great idea....why don't we plan a Hav-a-pic trip to Dallas with Melissa! We could all shedule appts. w/Melissa and then spend some time hanging out with our kids!:whoo:


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## lcy_pt

Has anyone read the Journal of Heredity - Heredity Evaluation of Multiple Development Abnormalities in the Havanese? Interesting read.....Many questions answered...any comments????


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## marjrc

I haven't read it, Pat, but thanks. Here is one link to it, for more info:

http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/esm049v1


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## whitBmom

Jester is gorgeous!!

All this talk about drinks is making me thirsty...:bounce:


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## Havtahava

Marj, thank you for the link. Is the article just that one paragraph? That looks like a summary, not an article. I'd like to read more, although I just heard Dr. Keith Murphy and (almost Dr.) Alison Starr discuss this a few weeks ago and heard a lot more detail than this is showing.

Pat, can I ask what questions were answered for you in that article?


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## anneks

If I remember correctly what the presented in the journal is the same thing they presented in Denver.


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## Havtahava

Anne, are you seeing more than one paragraph? The talk in Denver was a lot more involved than what I am seeing in the link. I was hoping to see a lot more detail so I could review it again against my notes.


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## irnfit

Kimberly, when I went to the link for the article, there is another link on the right hand side that says "This Article, then full text". You have to have a subscription to the journal in order to read it.


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## anneks

I remember them talking about the journal and the fact that they were publishing the info from their study. This is the same study they presented at Denver. I think it contains the same statistical information.


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## Havtahava

OK, thank you Michele. I thought that was pretty weak to be able to call it an "article." I just knew I had to be missing _something_!


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## marjrc

Yes, Michele, that's it. LOL, Kimberly. I thought the same thing at first, but then saw the other link.


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## MagicLady

What an absolutely adult, rational, reasonable, easy to understand and fantastic job of explaining the whole thing! I salute you! I purchased an AKC registered Havanese who turned out to be a Havana Silk Dog. I too preferred the look and that was my reason for getting him instead of another. I had no clue there would be a split coming up. I am still showing my AKC registered Havanese (Silk Dog version) and have met some terrific people who own both Havanese and Havanese of the Silk Dog ...dare I use the term "type". We can and do get along. We can and do compete. They win, we win. What is the big deal?

Carol & McGee



maryam187 said:


> OK,
> I must have read the HSDAA-website after it's been 'softened up'. I'm a future pet owner who did lots of research on the Havanese. When I got on the HSDAA-website, I understood from it, that the HSD is a Havanese that is about to be bred in a way to regain the original looks of the Bichon Habanero and maybe one day eventually become its own registered breed.
> I chose to get a HSD, because I liked the way they look and it made life a little easier for me to know that only dogs with good health testings for many generations are bred/selected. Now this does absolutely *NOT* mean, that there aren't *MANY* great Havanese breeders who do all the health testing for many generations too. I just decided for myself that I prefer the looks of the HSD. And looking at many Havanese breeders' websites, I was overwhelmed by the variety of the Havanese looks. Now again, this does absolutely *NOT* mean, that different looks are something bad! It just means to me, that if I like the HSD look, I have a bigger chance to find one similar to Breeder A's dogs that I like at Breeder B's who lives closer to me and has an upcoming litter.
> Reading through this thread (don't even want to read the 143 page one!) really made me feel uncomfortable about posting and bragging about my future dog, who turns out to be a HSD, because of my personal preferences. It makes me sad to know, that probably by me posting pics and bragging about him, will have people think I believe I have a 'superior' dog, just because I prefer his body structure or 'silky' hair.
> That reminds me: when buying Levi's Jeans, for instance, no one feels offended if person A loves the 501 and person B loves the 901. I believe they even tried to come out with a pair that looked like the ORIGINAL Levi's denim and no one felt offended by that either, because that doesn't mean that your twisted 21th century baggy Levi's Jeans are inferior to the Orginal. Now this is just talking about Jeans and I *KNOW* that dogs are living beings. But I think it's very exaggerated to come up with some Hitler analogy, trust me I grew up in Germany and you just don't want to open that rotten can of worms!!!
> The most important thing to me, is that I can trust my breeder, I will get all the health information that makes me feel comfortable with my choice and I get the dog that has the look I like.
> Now anyone with some common sense will hopefully understand that this last statement is applicable to *ANY* breed, whether Havanese, HSD, Poodle, German Shepherd, etc.
> Maryam.


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## Melissa Miller

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!!! 

I want to thank you in advance for not continuing the past argument in this old thread. 

I do not mean that towards you Carol at all. Just a fairly warning to everyone else, that I want to enjoy my weekend!


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## whitBmom

Happy thanksgiving to all of our American friends. From your friends North of the border  :grouphug::canada:


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## JASHavanese

Melissa Miller said:


> Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!!!
> 
> I want to thank you in advance for not continuing the past argument in this old thread.
> 
> I do not mean that towards you Carol at all. Just a fairly warning to everyone else, that I want to enjoy my weekend!


Happy Thanksgiving! Hope you're feeling better Melissa.


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## casperkeep

I hope all had wonderful Thanksgiving!!!!! We sure had a great one with our family!!!!!!!! Next is Christmas....yippee my favorite holiday....I love to decorate our house for the holidays. We are putting up our tree next Sunday!!!!!!!


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## casperkeep

It shall be neat to see what Jillee thinks of it all!!!!! We did a doggie exchange in our family and my cousins girlfriend loves Jillee and that is who she got....I am sure she will be spoiled!!!!!! I think it will be fun!!!! We are going to get another expen and put it around the tree so she will not get into it.....I do not want choking on an ornament or hook.!!!! That would be devastating to us


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## casperkeep

Plus I can not wait to see her playing in the snow!!!!!!!! I bet she will like it but I may not like brushing the mats out!! She is matting like crazy......but at leats my husband and I take turns in brushing her!!!! He is so good to them all!!! They are alll in bed sleeping with there daddy. Jillee is curled up right beside him under the covers.....too cute I tell ya....I will try and get a picture of them


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## Melissa Miller

Maybe yall want to post these messages in a new thread since they do not relate to this topic. I hate to see this being kept at the top for no reason.


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## casperkeep

*Napping with Daddy!!!*

Here they are taking a nap with there Daddy. Jillee moved when I went in there. She was sleeping under the covers right up against my hubby!!!! But of course she moved. Oh well too cute anyways!!!!You know these dogs have soo many beds but they just want to be with us in our bed......I think that they think it is a super sized doggie bed for them....we just happen to fit in bed with them:biggrin1:


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## casperkeep

Ok good idea Melissa I am going to make a new thread!!!!


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