# grooming nightmare



## angiern2004 (Apr 24, 2011)

Grooming has become a beast of a chore, and it's not so much the combing itself, but the resistance Trooper has to grooming.

Granted, I was spoiled by the fact that he never never never had a single mat until he got neutered. So, part of his resistance is that I probably don't comb him as much as I should, especially for his coat being the length that it is. If I could get him to accept grooming better, I wouldn't hesitate so much to do it. I don't know where it went wrong. 

Seems like, ever since he got neutered, he won't let me comb his front legs or his belly. Not sure if they shaved his arm and put in the IV while he was awake or what. Not sure if they shaved his belly (don't get me started on that) while he was awake or not. 

After being neutered, his first mats were in his armpits and on his belly. I wonder if the time I spent getting those areas un-matted and then mat free contributed to his resistance to letting me in those areas or not.

It seems like every time he gets a mat somewhere, he adds that section to his do-not-comb-me-there list for the next session. I SWEAR. He used to be SUPER good about letting me comb his back, sides, back legs, and ESPECIALLY his chest and face (since I usually do his face a LOT more often than anywhere else). Today it's gotten to the point of not letting me comb ANYWHERE. Bite, bite, bite, squirm, squirm, squirm, roll away, and RLH! Maybe that's my fault for trying to comb him while sitting on the living room floor, but I'm at a loss as to where else to comb him. I tried our bathroom counter, but that only worked the first one or two times, then he got just as bad there, too. 


Long story short:
How far "backwards" in training to accept combing do I need to go?
How do I get him to let me comb out the mats in his armpits? and belly, for that matter?
How much do I let him "protest" by biting me or the comb?
Will biting at the comb hurt his teeth?
What do people use a wood pin brush for? Would adding that to the arsenal help? 

I'm to the point where I'm considering cutting his hair, even though he's not even blowing coat yet. I don't really want to, but I may not have any choice. I'd really like it if I could just get back to the point where he didn't freak out with combing...I love his coat this length!


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

Wow, sounds like Trooper may be as bad as Finn when it comes to grooming. Augie is pretty good about grooming, although did struggle some when he was younger. Finn has been a major struggle, from the beginning, and still is at 17 months. I have read where a grooming table with an arm to hold them is a help, although I still don't have one. Putting him up on my sewing cutting table, on a mat, is much easier than trying to comb him in my lap. I use the wood pin brush on him after I have gotten most of his mats worked out. The wood pin brush will alert you to where a mat is located by catching on it - it does NOT brush out mats, and I don't feel it works well at all on Augie's very thick coat. And he tolerates me pulling the mats apart with my fingers better than trying to work them out with the comb. Finn just went through a MAJOR coat blowing - I hope that is all it was - as his hair is extremely thin right now. He does not like his feet combed, but will tolerate a soft slicker brush on them better than anything else. And if Trooper is giving you that much trouble, I think I would cut him down for the time being. Others have done it; the coats have grown out, and hopefully he can get used to you combing without causing any pain. Get those armpits cleaned out of hair, and his belly too. I had Finn's belly cut short a few months back - ever so helpful.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

angiern2004 said:


> Grooming has become a beast of a chore, and it's not so much the combing itself, but the resistance Trooper has to grooming.
> 
> Granted, I was spoiled by the fact that he never never never had a single mat until he got neutered. So, part of his resistance is that I probably don't comb him as much as I should, especially for his coat being the length that it is. If I could get him to accept grooming better, I wouldn't hesitate so much to do it. I don't know where it went wrong.
> 
> ...


I've said before that I have found it MUCH easier to groom Kodi in a grooming slip, so that I have two hands free. So that's the first thing I would try.

As far as armpit knots are concerned, that was a battle I wasn't willing to fight. I could just IMAGINE how painful they must be. So I just cut them out. Same with any knots on his belly. If you couldn't see it, I cut it!:biggrin1: After all, he's not a show dog... he's neutered! The same is true for Trooper.

Biting the comb won't hurt his teeth. If it's uncomfortable, he'll stop faster, and I'm a big believer in natural consequences. I WOULDN'T let him bite YOU. Try having someone else hold a Bully Stick, or something else that he really likes and using that as a distraction as you work for a while. If you have to work on him alone, do just a tiny bit, then treat, then a bit more, then another treat. The treats can be tiny, but they should be something he really likes.

Kodi also went through a period of being overly sensitive about his feet. (especially his left front for some odd reason) This had NOTHING to do with being neutered... he did it from the time he was a TINY puppy. I was just calm and persistent, and used lots of treats.

As far as the wood pin brush is concerned, yes, it is very comfortable, and the dogs seem to enjoy it. But it WON'T get knots out. For that, you really need either a good comb or a slicker. I usually use a comb, but a slicker can be useful in some instances. I LOVE my wood pin brushes, but I use them for fluffing him up when I already know he is completely knot-free.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Oops! Should have read Linda's post before I responded!


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## marlowe'sgirl (Jun 17, 2010)

I followed Karen's lead. I shave the belly, underarms, and inside of back legs. Also in the midst of blowing coat, I just cut a lot of mats out rather than fight them.

How old is Trooper? He may be starting to blow coat. My pup definitely went in sections - everyday would be a new section, he started underside, then around his head and went back to his tail.


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

I agree, cut those knots out in the armpits and clip closer on the lower belly. I can't remember if it was Jack or Dexter. Right after his neuter (stress?) mats everywhere! I am so glad he was still under medication that first night because I ended up combing the mats out. 

If I had to do it over again....I would have kept my boys in in short clip for the first two years. The stress and combing was not worth it! I am talking about 3 hour combing sessions.....Hair grows!


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## angiern2004 (Apr 24, 2011)

Omg, I'm so thankful for all these responses! Now let's see if I can remember everything I wanted to respond to. 

First I should have clarified what I was asking about the wood pin brush for... I know those won't get out knots. I was curious what those are used for that a comb can't do, or what the advantage of them is. I thought maybe it was gentler so that, however I go back to the beginning of grooming training, it would be a gentler groom-thru than a comb. 

Second, what is a slip lead (oh gosh, is that even what you called it, I can't remember now, lol)? Is that the little slip leash like thing that they have at the groomers a d self serve washes? They sell those for at home? I might have to look into that. Clearly I need to spend more time shopping! Lol. 

Third, please realize that Trooper has never been cut or trimmed, except the paw pads, rounding the hair on the ends of his paws, and butt trims (but only twice). Oh, and the shaving they did when he was neutered back in June. He's 8 months (omg did I just say that!!! Time flies!). I'm really nervous about taking him anywhere to get groomed, and I sure as heck can't do that myself, and he'll lose most of the black in his coat if I do. 

We already do the one-person hold the bully stick thing. That's the only way I can do post bath combing and drying. I don't always have my hubby's help, though. I've tried treats by myself and it works ok but not great.


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## angiern2004 (Apr 24, 2011)

And don't get me wrong, he's not a walking disaster. I comb him, it's just a bigger and bigger battle every time. He had 2 mats tonight. I ended up trimming them out. He hadn't had one since last week sometime. 

He's also starting to back away from the bully stick if we ate holding it for him. He sure has learned what us holding it for him means!

So I just wanted to clarify that he's not a huge mess.  I just can't figure out how to end the battle.  I'm almost convinced he thinks it's a game. I gotta find a place to do it besides sitting on the floor.


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

Nightly combing is on my lap for Jack. I love the brush, but rarely use it. The way I got the bad "bubble gum mats" out was to take a shall pair of very sharp pair of scissors and I would drag one of the edges through the mat several times so I could break up the mat. 

Then pick and comb, a technique you will learn as you get more experience with grooming. If you cut out the mat, you have a hole in the fur area. It does not matter if it is on the belly or armpits. Hair takes a long time to grow back. 

Make sure you know what line combing is. Which comb are you using?


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## angiern2004 (Apr 24, 2011)

I use my trusty buttercomb...unless it's a really small mat, then I use something with narrower tines. 

I do know about line combing.

I love to pick and comb. I actually prefer doing it that way, but it's tough when he doesn't let me to his armpits. LOL. That's where the two were that I cut out. So with the location, it was helpful that they weren't all the way down by his skin, nor were they very large. You can hardly tell. It almost made me cry, nonetheless.  I know, it's just hair....


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## Tuss (Apr 22, 2012)

My little dog so far isn't a battle, but my big dog was at that age. Different breed, but same problems. In the end I didn't want to cause of lifetime of trauma for her. I'm vain but she doesn't know that a long coat is "pretty". I finally broke down and got her clipped. She was much happier. The groomer suggested if i wanted to keep her longer then I'd have to get her groomer every 6 weeks to keep up with the mats that were forming. we did that for about 6 months during that awkward coat change period and then the grooming started to get easier. She matured, i used lots of treats, and now she will tolerate grooming and I can let her coat grow out a bit longer from time to time. 

My little dog has a long flowing coat now and she still lets me comb it out every night without too much battle. When the battle begins then I think I might get her clipped because i'd rather a good relationship with my dog that the beautiful coat.


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## Gabs (Apr 15, 2012)

My Gabs had tons of mats last month and wouldnt let me come near her with my CC comb (wiggle, squirm... )... I picked up a slicker brush (as per advice from this forum) and OMG it worked like a charm! She had BAD mats, and the slicker got them out (after a week of trying with the comb the slicker got them out in 40 mins!!) and the BEST part is she LOVES the slicker... she rolls over so I get her belly and will paw me to keep on going. She will tolerate the comb on a good day, but loves the slicker. I find the slicker awesome at getting out loose hairs, so what I've been doing now is using the slicker on her 1st and then going over with the comb... what a difference, she's such a good girl now!

I keep Gabby short for now (which doesnt mean no mats), but its so much easier on her when she does get one. I wouldnt even try the armpits, just cut those right out, it's too sensitive there.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tuss said:


> My little dog so far isn't a battle, but my big dog was at that age. Different breed, but same problems. In the end I didn't want to cause of lifetime of trauma for her. I'm vain but she doesn't know that a long coat is "pretty". I finally broke down and got her clipped. She was much happier. The groomer suggested if i wanted to keep her longer then I'd have to get her groomer every 6 weeks to keep up with the mats that were forming. we did that for about 6 months during that awkward coat change period and then the grooming started to get easier. She matured, i used lots of treats, and now she will tolerate grooming and I can let her coat grow out a bit longer from time to time.
> 
> My little dog has a long flowing coat now and she still lets me comb it out every night without too much battle. When the battle begins then I think I might get her clipped because i'd rather a good relationship with my dog that the beautiful coat.


It really depends on the type of coat your Hav has. I wouldn't have let Kodi's coat stand in the way of our relationship either. But it really wasn't an issue. As long as I kept him really clean, and combed him out thoroughly twice a day during that period (took me about less than a half hour total, daily) i was able to keep ahead of the mats, not hurt him, and keep the grooming sessions to a tolerable length.

I know I was lucky... There are lots of people who have pups with much heavier undercoats, or curly hair, where blowing coat becomes a nightmare. If I had a pup like that, I might very well cut them down until it was over too! But for people who like the long coat, I think it's worth giving it a try and see how it goes. They just shouldn't wait so long that the dog gets heavily matted, or the groomer might end up having to shave them to the skin!


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## angiern2004 (Apr 24, 2011)

Trooper isn't even blowing coat yet, I don't think anyway. A mat or 2 every 5-7 days doesn't sound like it to me, from the stories I hear. Being that this is my first Hav, I'm no expert.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

ya, I was one of the 3 hr grooming sessions per day nightmares...
I chose to shave her down and save our relationship.... hair grows FAST and it IS just hair. I know it is hard, but if he is freaking out this bad now, what will happen when he really IS blowing coat??
If you have him shaved down, then you can basically start from scratch combing him everyday without it hurting ...


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## angiern2004 (Apr 24, 2011)

That's the thing. He only has 1 or 2 mats a week, but he hardly let's me comb ANYWHERE anymore. I mean I get it done but it's a fight. You can't tell me the rest hurts. So it's not even a hurts him thing (except his armpits where his mats develop, and occasionally a belly mat)...and I don't even start there.


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

If he is a puppy, start very short sessions...30sec, 1 minute...building up, praising good behavior.


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## angiern2004 (Apr 24, 2011)

He's 8 months. 

I did go alllllllll the way back to the beginning today. 

First off, I bought a slicker brush today. Someone needs to teach me how to best use it. Line brush, I assume???

I'm totally convinced that he thinks combs and brushes are pokey toys and that grooming is play/a game. Convinced. 

Went wayyyyyyyyyyy back to the beginning...back to 'touch the brush to him' 'mark it with a yes at the exact same time' and treat. Did that a little bit, then progressed to 'make a brush stroke' 'yes at the end of the stroke' and treat. Then after a few times of that I was able to just brush for awhile with a few treats here and there. Then I went forward to his front legs...he flipped out so I started over with just touching it to his front paw, marking it with a yes, and treat. Since we'd been working at it for an hour, I stopped there. 

I don't know why I didn't think of a slicker brush before! A handful of times, while brushing his back, he rolled over onto his back. What he wanted was a belly rub, and I would do that for a second, but then I'd touch the brush and mark it with a yes. Didn't push it further than that. His belly is pretty tangley (not matted, though) so I didn't want to pull thru any tangles when we were having a good training session. 

FYI...marking good behavior with a yes is JUST like clicker training, for those of you that are wondering. It involves a precisely timed yes at the very second he does whatever I ask him to do, in the exact same voice every time. It's the way Trooper and I were trained in puppy k. I sound like a looney person saying it all the time, but I don't need a clicker with me all the time.


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## angiern2004 (Apr 24, 2011)

HavaneseSoon said:


> If he is a puppy, start very short sessions...30sec, 1 minute...building up, praising good behavior.


I guess I don't post enough updates!!! :biggrin1:


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## angiern2004 (Apr 24, 2011)

Oops, forgot to say that it made me super happy.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

YAY!!!! great job Angie!!!!


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