# Back to food questions.



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

OK, so we've done our trial of The Honest Kitchen and Stella and Chewy's. Well, I haven't finished up either, but I've used enough of both to know I won't buy more of either. 

THK: I tried the chicken with grain version. I mixed it in big enough batches that it could really re-hydrate at least over night, and that completely solved the problem some people had with the "chopped hay in the beard" problem. Even Panda, with her long, snowy white beard, had no problem eating it and staying pretty clean. I used ALMOST twice as much water as mix. I did this partially to make it easier for me to measure after it was mixed, since I was pre-mixing rather large amounts, to feed two dogs. I wanted to have a good idea of the calorie count t of 1/2 cup of the mixture I was serving. 

The girls seemed to really like it from the first day. In the beginning I tried feeding it to everyone but Kodi. (the allergy boy) Ducky wouldn't touch it to start with. (but that seems to be his answer to every new food item) He ate it if I TOTALLY mixed a bit in with his kibble and goats milk to start with. I did get him switched onto it completely for a couple of days, but HATED it for him. It made his poops huge and more frequent, NOT something I wanted with a puppy in the midst of potty training! He had been sleeping through the night with no problem, and all of a sudden, he was needing to get up and poop in the wee hours. NOT what I wanted! So I switched him RIGHT back to his Fromm's, and we went back to his small, nicely formed poops and sleeping through the night.

I still have a half a box, but honestly, I may just give it away. I am not at all convinced that dogs need that much vegetable matter, and they SURE don't need that much indigestible "stuff" in their food.

The Stella and Chewy's gets a much more favorable review. The dogs LOVE it. I got the biggest bag of chicken, and a small bag of lamb for Kodi. He seems to be able to tolerate the lamb with no problems at all, (that is the protein he gets normally now) and adores it. It's a nice thing to have around for times that I run out of canned, light weight vacation food, etc. The lamb is VERY expensive, and I CERTAINLY wouldn't feed it to the others for that reason!

Even the chicken is awfully expensive, and I just don't think I can justify about $2.50 per day, per dog for ONE meal, which is what it would cost me to continue to feed even the chicken formula. So... I will continue to top-dress Ducky's breakfast with it... I think it has value-added when used that way, and he certainly eats his kibble with more gusto mixed with the S&C. It also makes great, non-refrigerated training treats, and. again, very light-weight vacation food. (and NO problem with increased poop size.

My next experiment is that I took a look at all the fresh/frozen/delivered foods. After a look at them all (and several were a bit of a toss-up, but talking to a nice person on the phone, I've decided to do a trial of NomNom. The trial is REALLY cheap to do one meal a day, (and I DO want to continue our easy kibble breakfasts, and I DO like the quality of the Fromm's kibble) even after the trial period, the daily cost per dog, per meal will be $1.60. ($134.06 for the 3 of them for 4 weeks) So not cheap, for sure, but it seems doable. There are others of these fresh food companies I can try too, and all of them offer "deals" for at least the first couple of weeks, if not the first month. So if you shop around, you can probably get 6 moths worth at close to half price, before you settle on the company you like best. 

Have any of you used one of these companies? Any that you like better than others? I was using canned for the girls too until Kodi had to move to lamb. But even with Kodi's canned, the lamb is just too expensive to feed to everyone, and While Fromm's has a canned version, Chewy's doesn't carry it, so I'd have to go get it at a local store and carry it home. Not an attractive option with something heavy... I'm already carrying the kibble home... which may cause me to reassess Fromm's as my kibble, much as I like it.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Haven't tried any of the services. For the other two, I do prefer the S&C to THK - I switched basically for the cost (and packing volume). Even using the grain free, Perry's poops are definitely more on THK than on S&C. We'll see where we might end up next and then decide which I am willing/ able to pack and take with us.

I pick up Perry's (Fromm's) kibble at a local pet store - but with only him, right now i just grab one small bag at a time


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

Sorry I can’t add any useful input to this discussion as Flo is raw fed an English brand. It’s a really interesting post, so I hope you get lots of responses!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> Haven't tried any of the services. For the other two, I do prefer the S&C to THK - I switched basically for the cost (and packing volume). Even using the grain free, Perry's poops are definitely more on THK than on S&C. We'll see where we might end up next and then decide which I am willing/ able to pack and take with us.
> 
> I pick up Perry's (Fromm's) kibble at a local pet store - but with only him, right now i just grab one small bag at a time


If it were just kibble, I wouldn’t mind. But I wuld like to NOT use kibble for both meals, and lugging cans arond for 3 dogs is a lotta cans!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Sorry I can’t add any useful input to this discussion as Flo is raw fed an English brand. It’s a really interesting post, so I hope you get lots of responses!!


I’d love to do raw, but (my) health situation prevents that.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Sorry I can’t add any useful input to this discussion as Flo is raw fed an English brand. It’s a really interesting post, so I hope you get lots of responses!!


Flo - I was thinking you used Instinct raw by Natures Variety? Did you switch?


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

I know nothing about fresh foods for pets, however this recall came out a few days ago from NomNom for their cat food that has chicken in it. Looks like it is only for the cat food though.









Nom Nom Chicken Cuisine Cat Food Recall


Nom Nom is voluntarily recalling certain lots of Chicken Cuisine cat food produced between March 8, 2021 and May 17, 2021.




truthaboutpetfood.com





I am also wondering why they include peas in some of their formulas. Here is their beef formula. I know peas are sometimes included in kibble but surprised to see it in a quality fresh food. Karen I believe you mentioned concerns about legumes and phytoestrogens? It appears that peas are only in the beef formula though.

Ingredients: Ground beef, russet potatoes, eggs, carrots, peas, dicalcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, salt, potassium chloride, fish oil, natural flavor, sunflower oil, vinegar, citric acid, taurine, choline bitartrate, zinc gluconate, ferrous sulfate, vitamin E supplement, copper gluconate, niacin (vitamin B3), manganese gluconate, vitamin A supplement, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), selenium yeast, riboflavin (vitamin B2), vitamin B12 supplement, cholecalciferol (source of vitamin D3), potassium iodide.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> I was thinking you used Instinct raw by Natures Variety? Did you switch?


No, I’ve never done raw. I do Instinct limited ingredient kibble and canned.

The raw is just not possible with my immune system, with dogs with beards. Remember, I am the one who was ill for a year after a prock from a thorn…


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> I know nothing about fresh foods for pets, however this recall came out a few days ago from NomNom for their cat food that has chicken in it. Looks like it is only for the cat food though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, and one of the reasons I am not using their beef formula. It is relatively far down the list, even in the beef, and I don’t want the beef because of Kodi’s beef allergy… I don’t want a chance of him grabbing a mouthful. But yes, I have read enough about the plant estrogens in legumes that I don’t want either Ducky or Panda eating them. None of the other three recipes contain them, and those three are the ones I am rotating between. I don’t have a problem with a company that does a voluntary recall here and there. I consider that due diligence.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> No, I’ve never done raw. I do Instinct limited ingredient kibble and canned.
> 
> The raw is just not possible with my immune system, with dogs with beards. Remember, I am the one who was ill for a year after a prock from a thorn…


This question was directed at Flo. She mentioned switching to an English brand of raw. I thought she had used Natures Variety before that so wondering. I used to feed Natures Variety raw so made me curious why she switched.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> Yes, and one of the reasons I am not using their beef formula. It is relatively far down the list, even in the beef, and I don’t want the beef because of Kodi’s beef allergy… I don’t want a chance of him grabbing a mouthful. But yes, I have read enough about the plant estrogens in legumes that I don’t want either Ducky or Panda eating them. None of the other three recipes contain them, and those three are the ones I am rotating between. I don’t have a problem with a company that does a voluntary recall here and there. I consider that due diligence.


They do sound like a good company and I have no problem with voluntary recalls either. Glad that peas are only in one formula.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> If it were just kibble, I wouldn’t mind. But I wuld like to NOT use kibble for both meals, and lugging cans arond for 3 dogs is a lotta cans!


yeah, that's the main reason I never went to wet food for Perry for his 2nd meal - no way am I trying to pack 6 months worth of cans in my suitcase


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

mudpuppymama said:


> Flo - I was thinking you used Instinct raw by Natures Variety? Did you switch?


Hi!
Flo has Natural Instinct which is made here in the UK. There is _every chance _I have referred to it here by mistake as Natures Variety, or Nature’s Menu as I’ve got a habit of mixing up the names* but as a general rule she’s always had Natural Instinct 99% of the time.

*I also manage to do this with the same girls at Brownies each week, even though I _know _who is who🙄 I think it’s just a case of my mouth, or in the case of the forum my fingers, working quicker than my brain🤪😘


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Hi!
> Flo has Natural Instinct which is made here in the UK. There is _every chance _I have referred to it here by mistake as Natures Variety, or Nature’s Menu as I’ve got a habit of mixing up the names* but as a general rule she’s always had Natural Instinct 99% of the time.
> 
> *I also manage to do this with the same girls at Brownies each week, even though I _know _who is who🙄 I think it’s just a case of my mouth, or in the case of the forum my fingers, working quicker than my brain🤪😘


I have a feeling you called it by the right name and I just heard it wrong! Thanks for clarifying.


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

mudpuppymama said:


> I have a feeling you called it by the right name and I just heard it wrong! Thanks for clarifying.


Ha! Let’s go with 50/50 split shall we🤣😘


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Ha! Let’s go with 50/50 split shall we🤣😘


Sounds good!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Yeah I just couldn’t justify the cost of using freeze dried exclusively when there are fresh food delivery services at a comparable or lesser price! Maybe I’ll change my mind in the future, but when I initially budgeted $50/month for one dog for food I felt very adult and proud to be able to do that. I’m okay with going up and I have since, but I have a really hard time justifying more than $100 month on food that isn’t fresh or maybe a nutritionist curated raw diet.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ah! OK!


Melissa Brill said:


> yeah, that's the main reason I never went to wet food for Perry for his 2nd meal - no way am I trying to pack 6 months worth of cans in my suitcase


Look at that!!! Instead of just "liking", you can now use an "emoticon" as a response to a post! If they can do THAT, why can't they remove spam? LOL!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Yeah I just couldn’t justify the cost of using freeze dried exclusively when there are fresh food delivery services at a comparable or lesser price! Maybe I’ll change my mind in the future, but when I initially budgeted $50/month for one dog for food I felt very adult and proud to be able to do that. I’m okay with going up and I have since, but I have a really hard time justifying more than $100 month on food that isn’t fresh or maybe a nutritionist curated raw diet.


 The NomNom is a LOT less than Stella and Chewy's freeze dried raw!!!


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## Sabrina Henneman (Sep 23, 2020)

Our breeder started the puppies on Stella and chewy Chicken/salmon puppy patties (dehydrated), so that’s what we’ve used so far. She loves it. The breeder makes her own raw fresh but idk if I want to go that route. I like that Stella and chewy adds taurine for heart health. I wear gloves since there are some mussels in it snd I’m allergic to shellfish. No troubles do far. I got some of their puppy kibble to use in treat balls and snuffle mat, but it does have peas/legumes in it, which I have since learned seems to be the problematic addition to most of the foods under review by the FDA for dog heart issues with grain free foods.

Once I get through this bag of puppy kibble, which is very sparingly given right now, so will take me forever, I’ll switch to something else for kibble. I do think we will stick with the rehydrated raw patties for meals now though.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Sabrina Henneman said:


> Our breeder started the puppies on Stella and chewy Chicken/salmon puppy patties (dehydrated), so that’s what we’ve used so far. She loves it. The breeder makes her own raw fresh but idk if I want to go that route. I like that Stella and chewy adds taurine for heart health. I wear gloves since there are some mussels in it snd I’m allergic to shellfish. No troubles do far. I got some of their puppy kibble to use in treat balls and snuffle mat, but it does have peas/legumes in it, which I have since learned seems to be the problematic addition to most of the foods under review by the FDA for dog heart issues with grain free foods.
> 
> Once I get through this bag of puppy kibble, which is very sparingly given right now, so will take me forever, I’ll switch to something else for kibble. I do think we will stick with the rehydrated raw patties for meals now though.


You could switch to just chicken, beef or lamb if you stay with the S&C patties. I really liked Perry on them (and you have the added advantage of NOT having the fish smell  )


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Sabrina Henneman said:


> Our breeder started the puppies on Stella and chewy Chicken/salmon puppy patties (dehydrated), so that’s what we’ve used so far. She loves it. The breeder makes her own raw fresh but idk if I want to go that route. I like that Stella and chewy adds taurine for heart health. I wear gloves since there are some mussels in it snd I’m allergic to shellfish. No troubles do far. I got some of their puppy kibble to use in treat balls and snuffle mat, but it does have peas/legumes in it, which I have since learned seems to be the problematic addition to most of the foods under review by the FDA for dog heart issues with grain free foods.
> 
> Once I get through this bag of puppy kibble, which is very sparingly given right now, so will take me forever, I’ll switch to something else for kibble. I do think we will stick with the rehydrated raw patties for meals now though.


Please know that once a bag of kibble is opened, the clock starts ticking and the expiration date is meaningless. It does not last forever. Some people do not realize this so wanted to pointed it out since you mentioned it lasting forever. I would say six weeks is about it but you may want to do your own research on that.


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## Sabrina Henneman (Sep 23, 2020)

mudpuppymama said:


> Please know that once a bag of kibble is opened, the clock starts ticking and the expiration date is meaningless. It does not last forever. Some people do not realize this so wanted to pointed it out since you mentioned it lasting forever. I would say six weeks is about it but you may want to do your own research on that.


That’s good to know. I bought the little bag of kibble but it’s still pretty big given how little she gets. I’ll email the company for recommendation on shelf life once opened. Thank you!


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## Sabrina Henneman (Sep 23, 2020)

Melissa Brill said:


> You could switch to just chicken, beef or lamb if you stay with the S&C patties. I really liked Perry on them (and you have the added advantage of NOT having the fish smell  )


I have some lamb ones, which were actually her first meal at the breeder’s, but they smell lol and give her stinky lamb gas. 🤣 when she ages out of puppy I’ll probably switch to another variety.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Sabrina Henneman said:


> I have some lamb ones, which were actually her first meal at the breeder’s, but they smell lol and give her stinky lamb gas. 🤣 when she ages out of puppy I’ll probably switch to another variety.


 I guess it depends what you are more sensitive to -- I found the fish (well fish dog food anything) much stinkier and I couldn't deal with it, so we switched. The lamb is stinkier than the beef but I could handle both.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

So all this discussion on food made me decide to go check out options - I was happier with S&C freeze dried but not with the bulk of the bags AND the cost (a lot higher then THK). I ran across
*Stella & Chewy's Raw Blend Red Meat Recipe Kibble (edited: it's actually the Wild Red Raw, not the Raw blend red meat) - see below for the link*
Interestingly, the grain free is also legume free and they're adding taurine. It's a mix of "raw coated kibble" and freeze dried raw pieces.
A negative (for those who are trying to limit the type of protein) is that it's a mix of 6 different meats - which I can't decide if that's good or bad  in general.

Has anyone used it?


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Melissa Brill said:


> So all this discussion on food made me decide to go check out options - I was happier with S&C freeze dried but not with the bulk of the bags AND the cost (a lot higher then THK). I ran across
> *Stella & Chewy's Raw Blend Red Meat Recipe Kibble*
> Interestingly, the grain free is also legume free and they're adding taurine. It's a mix of "raw coated kibble" and freeze dried raw pieces.
> A negative (for those who are trying to limit the type of protein) is that it's a mix of 6 different meats - which I can't decide if that's good or bad  in general.
> ...


Melissa maybe I am missing something but this food appears to be loaded with legumes. Am I looking at the wrong thing?









Stella & Chewy's Raw Blend Kibble Red Meat Recipe Dry Dog Food


Best-in-class solutions for those pet parents looking for high protein and nutrient dense dog kibble options. Why We Love It Includes only responsibly sourced ingredients like grass-fed beef and organic fruits & veggies Made in Stella & Chewy's own Wisconsin kitchen Added taurine, vitamins and...



shop.stellaandchewys.com


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

mudpuppymama said:


> Melissa maybe I am missing something but this food appears to be loaded with legumes. Am I looking at the wrong thing?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, I was looking at two different foods at the same time and posted the wrong name. The one I was looking at that was grain and legume free AND had 6 protein sources was the Wild Red Raw Kibble blend: 









Stella & Chewy’s Wild Red Raw Blend Kibble Dry Dog Food – Grain Free, Protein Rich – Red Meat Recipe, 3.5 lb Bag: Pet Supplies: Amazon.com


Shopping for Stella & Chewy’s Wild Red Raw Blend Kibble Dry Dog Food – Grain Free, Protein Rich – Red Meat Recipe, 3.5 lb Bag? Free automatic delivery may be available by subscription.



www.amazon.com


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> You could switch to just chicken, beef or lamb if you stay with the S&C patties. I really liked Perry on them (and you have the added advantage of NOT having the fish smell  )


I think if I only had one dog, I WOULD stick with Stella and Chewies, at least for one meal. It's expensive, but wouldn't be so bad with just one dog. But with three, it get's awfully pricey! (especially on top of Kodi's ALREADY pricey limited ingredient lamb diet!)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> So all this discussion on food made me decide to go check out options - I was happier with S&C freeze dried but not with the bulk of the bags AND the cost (a lot higher then THK). I ran across
> *Stella & Chewy's Raw Blend Red Meat Recipe Kibble (edited: it's actually the Wild Red Raw, not the Raw blend red meat) - see below for the link*
> Interestingly, the grain free is also legume free and they're adding taurine. It's a mix of "raw coated kibble" and freeze dried raw pieces.
> A negative (for those who are trying to limit the type of protein) is that it's a mix of 6 different meats - which I can't decide if that's good or bad  in general.
> ...


My understanding is that it is generally advised to rotate proteins rather than mix them. You are less likely to sensitize a dog to a protein if you are not feeding it every day. The only time that you WANT to feed a single protein (or a single mix o proteins) every day is in a case like Kodi, where he is already a "known allergy dog" and you need to keep them on a limited ingredient diet all the time. Then you keep them that one protein until they sensitive to it and then move to a new protein, then use that one for as long as possible then move to another. So far, in twelve years, Kodi has been on, (one at a time, chicken, then duck, then turkey (that was the longest) and now lamb. His food is also made with pork and rabbit, also in the limited ingredient formula. So considering his age, and the number of years we've gotten out of each, we are HOPING we will be able to stick with this brand and just rotate to those other two proteins in the rest of his life span. Otherwise, we will have to go to the REALLY novel meats, like bison, kangaroo and ostrich... which will probably mean I will need to cook for him.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> I think if I only had one dog, I WOULD stick with Stella and Chewies, at least for one meal. It's expensive, but wouldn't be so bad with just one dog. But with three, it get's awfully pricey! (especially on top of Kodi's ALREADY pricey limited ingredient lamb diet!)


I still may switch back (will depend heavily on where we're going next, if the CDC changes this ban so that Perry can travel back and forth again, how often we think we'll be in and out of the US, AND depending how much other stuff we may need to bring with us when we travel there) - if the stars align and I can "afford" the luggage space we'll switch match to S&C, otherwise we'll think about keeping THK. 

Right now I'm debating if I switch back for the short-term - while we're in the US - despite the fact that the S&C will end up being about 2x the cost of THK....


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> My understanding is that it is generally advised to rotate proteins rather than mix them. You are less likely to sensitize a dog to a protein if you are not feeding it every day. The only time that you WANT to feed a single protein (or a single mix o proteins) every day is in a case like Kodi, where he is already a "known allergy dog" and you need to keep them on a limited ingredient diet all the time. Then you keep them that one protein until they sensitive to it and then move to a new protein, then use that one for as long as possible then move to another. So far, in twelve years, Kodi has been on, (one at a time, chicken, then duck, then turkey (that was the longest) and now lamb. His food is also made with pork and rabbit, also in the limited ingredient formula. So considering his age, and the number of years we've gotten out of each, we are HOPING we will be able to stick with this brand and just rotate to those other two proteins in the rest of his life span. Otherwise, we will have to go to the REALLY novel meats, like bison, kangaroo and ostrich... which will probably mean I will need to cook for him.


That was my gut feeling too - though I really like the idea of the wild raw kibble/ freeze dried mix - and the price is good.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> I still may switch back (will depend heavily on where we're going next, if the CDC changes this ban so that Perry can travel back and forth again, how often we think we'll be in and out of the US, AND depending how much other stuff we may need to bring with us when we travel there) - if the stars align and I can "afford" the luggage space we'll switch match to S&C, otherwise we'll think about keeping THK.
> 
> Right now I'm debating if I switch back for the short-term - while we're in the US - despite the fact that the S&C will end up being about 2x the cost of THK....


I'd probably do the same... again, with one small dog, the cost wouldn't be so bad. And even if you can't feed it forever, you might as well let him enjoy it while you can!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I think I tried that one recently when I forgot to call ahead on Sundance’s food. There are a couple formulas with freeze dried mixed in, and I have tried more than one because the store I buy from always has them in stock. I really wanted to like them! At first lots of the freeze dried pieces ended up crushed the bottom. It was annoying but I tried to stick with it and bought it a few times. It felt like the end of the bag ended up wasted, and since the bags are small and more expensive anyway, it bugged me, so I went back to mixing them myself. Somehow that changed, and now all of the freeze dried pieces float to the top of the bag. At first I thought it might be good, it definitely fixed the crushed food, and I couldn’t figure out how they did it! It turns out, it’s a huge pain to scoop it out. If I scoop it as is the freeze dried is gone in a week, and then Sundance looks at me like, What have you done?! I have to ration 1-2 pieces of the freeze dried per meal to make it last, which means sifting through with my hand and measuring cup and I really hate it. They are also more firm than the patties and Sundance will gobble them and ignore the rest, so I have to break them up and sprinkle them over his food, and they do not break apart or rehydrate as easily as the regular patties.

I do like S&C raw kibble, Sundance has done well on it, though I haven’t checked if the formula has changed in the last 2-3 years, and it might have legumes, depending on the recipe. I think it’s more cost effective and convenient to buy the “baked” kibble separately and add freeze dried patties to the ratio I choose. I am able to have a higher ratio of freeze dried to kibble per meal for the same price, and I don’t have to stick my hand in a bag of dog food or break up the hard pellets with my fingers.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I think I tried that one recently when I forgot to call ahead on Sundance’s food. There are a couple formulas with freeze dried mixed in, and I have tried more than one because the store I buy from always has them in stock. I really wanted to like them! At first lots of the freeze dried pieces ended up crushed the bottom. It was annoying but I tried to stick with it and bought it a few times. It felt like the end of the bag ended up wasted, and since the bags are small and more expensive anyway, it bugged me, so I went back to mixing them myself. Somehow that changed, and now all of the freeze dried pieces float to the top of the bag. At first I thought it might be good, it definitely fixed the crushed food, and I couldn’t figure out how they did it! It turns out, it’s a huge pain to scoop it out. If I scoop it as is the freeze dried is gone in a week, and then Sundance looks at me like, What have you done?! I have to ration 1-2 pieces of the freeze dried per meal to make it last, which means sifting through with my hand and measuring cup and I really hate it. They are also more firm than the patties and Sundance will gobble them and ignore the rest, so I have to break them up and sprinkle them over his food, and they do not break apart or rehydrate as easily as the regular patties.
> 
> I do like S&C raw kibble, Sundance has done well on it, though I haven’t checked if the formula has changed in the last 2-3 years, and it might have legumes, depending on the recipe. I think it’s more cost effective and convenient to buy the “baked” kibble separately and add freeze dried patties to the ratio I choose. I am able to have a higher ratio of freeze dried to kibble per meal for the same price, and I don’t have to stick my hand in a bag of dog food or break up the hard pellets with my fingers.


Thanks! That makes a lot of sense. Right now we do freeze dried raw for 1 meal and kibble for the other (easier than me trying to mix 1/8 cup of each for each meal  ). I guess I will stick with that. 

I also heard back from S&C (asked about how many servings in the bag) - and while the cost of the bag doesn't seem bad, for his weight he'd be just under 1 cup a day and they say that there are only approx 11 cups in the 3 1/2 pound bag - so by far the highest cost per day of all the options that I'm considering.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> Thanks! That makes a lot of sense. Right now we do freeze dried raw for 1 meal and kibble for the other (easier than me trying to mix 1/8 cup of each for each meal  ). I guess I will stick with that.
> 
> I also heard back from S&C (asked about how many servings in the bag) - and while the cost of the bag doesn't seem bad, for his weight he'd be just under 1 cup a day and they say that there are only approx 11 cups in the 3 1/2 pound bag - so by far the highest cost per day of all the options that I'm considering.



Do you mean the S&C kibble? I haven't looked into that, because I've been very happy with the Fromm's kibble. But I know that the S&C patties, as much as I respect the company, and as much as the dog like the food, is THE most expensive food I've had them on!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> Do you mean the S&C kibble? I haven't looked into that, because I've been very happy with the Fromm's kibble. But I know that the S&C patties, as much as I respect the company, and as much as the dog like the food, is THE most expensive food I've had them on!


I had asked them about the wild red raw (the mix of kibble and freeze dried) - to see how many servings I'd get out of a bag... I'm happy with the Fromm kibble too.

I agree about the cost of the S&C patties - it is the most expensive thing I've had Perry on (or considered having him on).


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

The Stella and chewy i usually buy is a raw coated kibble. Although recently I forget to order it and have purchased one of the formulas with the freeze dried mixed in. I have mixed freeze dried and kibble together myself since Sundance was a year old or so, but I have switched kibble brands and tried different grain free, poultry based formulas from S&C. I only stayed with the brand because of the ingredients and his sensitive stomach. I actually did try a Fromm kibble, mixed with the patties. The owner of the store told me she feeds frozen raw but if she had to feed kibble, Fromm would be in her top 3. Sundance did well on it, but he definitely liked the S&C better, although that had very little to do with changing. He ate around the Fromm’s and spit it out for a while when I was transitioning. I ended up switching back mostly because of local availability (they used to stock it). When I brought home the S&C bag after the Fromm he went crazy!


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## Toffee170221 (Sep 10, 2021)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Sorry I can’t add any useful input to this discussion as Flo is raw fed an English brand. It’s a really interesting post, so I hope you get lots of responses!!


Hi GoWithTheFlo, I’ve only just spotted your comment and wondered if you'd let me know the raw brand you’re feeding Flo as you are UK based. Toffee started from the breeder on Royal Canin, which I changed on recommendation to Burns. He was fine for a while and then lost his appetite for it. He’s currently signed up with Tails but still very picky and I’m thinking of adding their new wet puppy food so he eats a mix. If I let him he’d eat anything other than what gies in his bow. The Havanese forum is great but as their US based all the brands they mention are from there. Any advice gratefully received 😊


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

Toffee170221 said:


> Hi GoWithTheFlo, I’ve only just spotted your comment and wondered if you'd let me know the raw brand you’re feeding Flo as you are UK based. Toffee started from the breeder on Royal Canin, which I changed on recommendation to Burns. He was fine for a while and then lost his appetite for it. He’s currently signed up with Tails but still very picky and I’m thinking of adding their new wet puppy food so he eats a mix. If I let him he’d eat anything other than what gies in his bow. The Havanese forum is great but as their US based all the brands they mention are from there. Any advice gratefully received 😊
> 
> Hello and welcome Toffee! That's certainly an adorable little baby💜 I love the coloring and solid black nose. Flo's food is on the tip of my tongue but I can't quite remember. I'm in Washington State but have family in England so I'm going to surprise her someday before I die😆 I recently transitioned our 2 kids to freeze dried raw with great success. Our 12 year old is acting like a puppy again in nearly every way. That wasn't even the reason I switched so it was a delightful surprise. Eventually I'm switching to frozen raw before we hit bankruptcy. I'll try sending a message to Flo to let her know to check this thread.


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## Toffee170221 (Sep 10, 2021)

Hi JaJa, thank you so much for your reply and what an amazing little family of Havanese you have, they look adorable 🥰Toffee is my first, so I‘m very new to the breed and finding out their quirky little traits all the time. My daughter has Toffee’s older half brother Fudge, who is, despite the relationship, such a different character! The forum is so helpful with all the Havanese experience and advice, I’m really glad I joined 😁


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

Toffee170221 said:


> Hi GoWithTheFlo, I’ve only just spotted your comment and wondered if you'd let me know the raw brand you’re feeding Flo as you are UK based. Toffee started from the breeder on Royal Canin, which I changed on recommendation to Burns. He was fine for a while and then lost his appetite for it. He’s currently signed up with Tails but still very picky and I’m thinking of adding their new wet puppy food so he eats a mix. If I let him he’d eat anything other than what gies in his bow. The Havanese forum is great but as their US based all the brands they mention are from there. Any advice gratefully received 😊


Hi Toffee👋 So we feed Flo Natural Instinct. Flo is a complete fusspot but seems to prefer their Special Diet, and their Turkey & Tripe flavours, so recently we have just been sticking with those. I think the reason we originally went with this brand was it was available at our local suppliers in the sizes we wanted (2 X 500g serving boxes per wrapped package) which meant we could roughly defrost a new one for her every 3 days (we feed approx 150g per day). I also found their website clear on the feeding amount guidelines and just generally liked what they had to say for themselves and their customer reviews. Unfortunately they seem to have changed their website and I can no longer see the reviews which is a shame. They have a puppy food, although I haven’t investigated how this differs to the other ‘adult’ varieties, as Flo was older when we turned to raw. They have an advice and faqs section which is quite easy to use. Only thing is if you are ordering from them directly they recommend 12kg as a good delivery weight to keep it packaged tightly together and frozen in transit. This is ok for us, but you might not want that amount whilst you are experimenting with what you like. Let me know if there’s anything else you’d like me to add. X


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## Toffee170221 (Sep 10, 2021)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Hi Toffee👋 So we feed Flo Natural Instinct. Flo is a complete fusspot but seems to prefer their Special Diet, and their Turkey & Tripe flavours, so recently we have just been sticking with those. I think the reason we originally went with this brand was it was available at our local suppliers in the sizes we wanted (2 X 500g serving boxes per wrapped package) which meant we could roughly defrost a new one for her every 3 days (we feed approx 150g per day). I also found their website clear on the feeding amount guidelines and just generally liked what they had to say for themselves and their customer reviews. Unfortunately they seem to have changed their website and I can no longer see the reviews which is a shame. They have a puppy food, although I haven’t investigated how this differs to the other ‘adult’ varieties, as Flo was older when we turned to raw. They have an advice and faqs section which is quite easy to use. Only thing is if you are ordering from them directly they recommend 12kg as a good delivery weight to keep it packaged tightly together and frozen in transit. This is ok for us, but you might not want that amount whilst you are experimenting with what you like. Let me know if there’s anything else you’d like me to add. X


😳So sorry GoWithTheFlo, only just spotted your reply to my question about feeding. I’m still learning to navigate all the threads on the website! I took a look at Natural Instinct puppy raw food, it looks really good quality and not expensive for that quality 👍At the moment he’s eating Skylos dry puppy food with a little warm mashed steamed potatoes and carrot twice a day. Maybe a change to NI at a year would be good? Thank you for your advice, it’s so helpful to be able to ask others views and ideas 😁


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

Toffee170221 said:


> 😳So sorry GoWithTheFlo, only just spotted your reply to my question about feeding. I’m still learning to navigate all the threads on the website! I took a look at Natural Instinct puppy raw food, it looks really good quality and not expensive for that quality 👍At the moment he’s eating Skylos dry puppy food with a little warm mashed steamed potatoes and carrot twice a day. Maybe a change to NI at a year would be good? Thank you for your advice, it’s so helpful to be able to ask others views and ideas 😁


Ooh that is spooky - I was wondering just this morning how Toffee was getting on with his food!

Narural Instinct have a section on transitioning to raw on their website which might be useful. Although from memory we just switched straight over from dry to raw -which is what they say not to do- but Flo lived to tell the tale or should that be tail🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 (actually that is a really bad joke even for me😳😘)

One thing I would say is don’t feel like you “should” be changing to raw. I remember chatting with other dog walkers when we first got Flo and many people who were raw feeders were incredibly passionate about it. It was great for them (and it turns out it is for us too -mainly because I like the fact her poo is smaller and less er “fragrant,“) but really I only changed because Flo seemed so unhappy eating her dry food. If she had eaten with gusto I wouldn’t have bothered changing. Only saying this because I sometimes feel like raw feeders (not here on the forum especially, as we’re all respectful of each others choices) are a bit like the breast feeding police!! And the only thing you _should _be doing is what’s best for _you _and _your _dog😘


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