# Merle gene



## amrileb7 (Mar 11, 2011)

Maybe


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

What is that gene for those of us that are not up on genetics?


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## rdanielle (Sep 2, 2008)

Thanks for posting, very interesting and definitely not old news! Is there a picture of that merle Havanese?


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

*Eyes*



amrileb7 said:


> You are very welcome.what was new to me was a Havanese being born with that color,well pattern hehe.No I don't have any pictures,all I know is that the Merle puppies were born without eyes a very common defect in double merles.the thing is that the parents didn't show the Merle pattern.


No eyes!


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

How very sad. Just another reason that people need to research their breeders before buying!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

amrileb7 said:


> You are very welcome.what was new to me was a Havanese being born with that color,well pattern hehe.No I don't have any pictures,all I know is that the Merle puppies were born without eyes a very common defect in double merles.the thing is that the parents didn't show the Merle pattern.


That's the scary part to me... Considering all the over-lays of genes that go into producing our "rainbow" of Havanese colors, it would be SO easy for a Merle not to be recognized as such. Just think how much our sables fade... many are close to white as adults. Or what if you had a Merle who also had the silver gene... they could grey out enough that they might not be recognized. Definitely a scary thought for breeders.

This looks like something breeders might want to do genetic testing to discover if they have it in their lines. (and is yet another important reason for BAER testing of any puppy a buyer is considering!!!)


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Before anyone gets too upset the reason many of our Havs are born dark and lighten is due to the A, Agouti gene with a co dominant, this is found on chromosome 24. This is found in several different breds also inc. the Lowchen. 

There is also the G, graying gene it can take up to four years to complete, it is found in some shih tzus and is why the Yorkie''s coats turn blue.

M, merle is very complex and of course is now considered a fragile gene.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

The Laughing Magpie said:


> Before anyone gets too upset the reason many of our Havs are born dark and lighten is due to the A, Agouti gene with a co dominant, this is found on chromosome 24. This is found in several different breds also inc. the Lowchen.
> 
> There is also the G, graying gene it can take up to four years to complete, it is found in some shih tzus and is why the Yorkie''s coats turn blue.
> 
> M, merle is very complex and of course is now considered a fragile gene.


Oh, I know. And I am assuming it is quite rare at this point. The worrisome part is that it could be covered up by other coat genes, and cause someone to unsuspectingly breed two dogs with the gene.

I don't think this is a huge problem for the pet owner anyway, as long as the pups are BAER tested, as they should be in any case. It's something that breeders will have to be on the watch for, however. The breeders would be the ones dealing with the heart ache of lethal white (or severely defective) puppies.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Genmark has a test for M, this is why it is important to go to a good breeder and this is an example of why purebreds are a good bet as their lines have been followed. If a Breeder thought that their Havanese showed a merle they could have the parents tested as this is autosomal, means it could be father or mother, if they found the gene they would retire the parents or better yet if there were a question they would test the parents first. I too think this is rare in the Havanese the scary part of course is back yard breeders and large scale breeding operations.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

This is why so many people were against adding the color Blue to the Standard last time.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

The blue gene is very different from the M, the blue is a dilation gene but can be D dominat full pigmentation or d recessive dilute pigmentation. There is a test to see if a dog carries the blue gene or if a dog is a blue. In todays world with the rate new discoveries in genenics are occuring, the breeding world is a much different place. 

If you are very interested in genetics some breed clubs, as well as dog clubs, vet groups and some Vet schools have gentics seminars and workshops, if you decide to go, I have to warn you depending on who it's geared toward you may have to wear your chemistry, math, and science hat.


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## Johntucker (Jun 18, 2012)

I heard that the Merle dogs born in Canada were born to dogs imported from Cuba,from the same kennel.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Amrileb, I don't want to be called negetive, but am asking an innocent question because I have seem so many different things said about the Havanese. What I am confused about is are the American dogs bred from the remaining Cudan dogs or not? The books I read all so no, but lately someone posted that the DNA of the American dogs was not like the Cuban Havanese DNA. Now that makes me think that our dogs are actually not the same breed, but bred to look the same. So can you enlightem me on this subject?


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Oh wow this thread is getting out of hand and there is some plain meanness in some of the chatter.

Lucile to answer your question first most of the books express a theory; they can not back it up with scientific proof. It would take geneticists many years to truly answer the question and back it up with science. Today the AKC requires DNA samples for breeding stock, which was not the way it was done in the past. What DNA can do is identify the lineage of a dog or person etc., this is it’s best use. There is no test to prove breed as of yet, what is done is a DNA profile, a DNA profile is based on a statistical probability in a given population. Most DNA is from the western industrialized countries and it really depends on the bank.
So it is very possible to bring a dog from a closed country such as Cuba and have the DNA profile not be a match it will not be entirely different but it will be very distant. In the early days of breeding some breeders did out crossing but not the way we think of it today, some did breed out crossing, which is why AKC requires DNA and of course most dogs are breeds that evolved from a mixture of other breeds. Since there is some narrow minded thinking going on, and there is not a close match in the DNA profile, does that mean the American Havanese are not truly Havanese or does it mean the ones from Cuba are not truly Havanese? It is simply not that black and white.

Today many of the good breeders of Havanese carefully screen their buyers and are very careful of who gets a show potential dog that has breeding rights. Many people want to exploit the popularity of the Havanese and some other breeds by putting up cute pictures on the internet and charging the same as a show breeder, some even give themselves a fake profile. Often their breeding dogs come from economically depressed countries, parts of Europe esp. the eastern block, and of course if you ever have visited Cuba there is much poverty. Getting a dog from another country far away not having a relationship with your source, not seeing the dogs and where they live, you are setting yourself up for fraud. It happens here too. Buying dogs from an unknown source as foundation stock is a risk!!! Many people simply cannot afford to start over so they breed them anyway.

As for the merle gene maybe the dogs in question came from Cuba and “If” so they most probably came from a questionable source.

Amribeb 7 has moved from Cuba these are her dogs, she knows her source, they are her love and her pets, I find it mean spirited to deliberately put her on the defensive regarding her pets while disparaging Cuba as a source for a Havanese.

As for Blues this is a decision for the Havanese Breed Club and it’s members. I can leave you with this; the Dalmatian dog (a very old breed) also has blues many years ago all that were born were euthanized, it was believed they had genetic problems, this has proven untrue, today they are not for show as they do not meet the standard, happily they go to pet homes.

Questions are a good way to learn and always welcome, making pronouncements based on rumors and wild speculation is always risky and often just not true.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Thanks Robbie. I don't know why I got in the conversation. I have never had a female that was not spayed and therefore, all my dogs are pets. And I love them tremendously.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Lucile, I know you love your babies and Rosie keeps you healty.

Amribeb 7, You might look up the thread "My Breeder Tricked Me" it was started by John Tucker.


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## Johntucker (Jun 18, 2012)

amrileb7 said:


> I don't know where you got that information from.
> All I'm going to say is that I made the biggest mistake when I purchase Cuban dogs.cuban dogs are known to be inconsistent and I don't think many American breeders are willing to introduce them in their breeding programs.I have read about that dog you mention nonstop.allegedly he was a blue but doesn't look blue on the postage stamp made after him so who knows what his true color was.i find difficult to believe that you know the pedigree of every single Cuban dog but I won't get into that.i posted a simple comment and now I feel attacked.


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