# DNA Testing for Havanese Anyone???



## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

I wonder if my Shadow isn't part> at times. Has anyone done this on their Havanese? If so, which one and what did it tell you?


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

If you have a registered Havanese, why would you bother?


----------



## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

He's registered but I wondered exactly what information they give. Someone I know did DNA testing for their dog that gave the genetic predispositions for diseases/cancer based on the dog's DNA. They were vague on the details but it sparked my curiosity. Curious what it would say about the breed...if it would say 100% Havanese or something else?


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tere said:


> He's registered but I wondered exactly what information they give. Someone I know did DNA testing for their dog that gave the genetic predispositions for diseases/cancer based on the dog's DNA. They were vague on the details but it sparked my curiosity. Curious what it would say about the breed...if it would say 100% Havanese or something else?


I don't know if it has improved, but in the beginning, they didn't... not because the Havanese tested were NOT purebred Havanese, but because the testing companies didn't have enough Havanese samples in their database for comparison. So they came back with some WILD combinations as computers tried to match things up. The fact is that ALL dog breeds share an awful lot of DNA.

If you want to know about specific diseases, you'd be better off working with your breeder, to test for the specific diseases that we KNOW we can test for in Havanese. (and there are a few) I believe most of these are done by UC Davis, though Thyroid, which, IMO, is one of the most important ones, is not a DNA test, but a blood test, and is done by Hemopet. Others can be done locally, including eyes and heart by a board certified local practitioner, and BAER testing for unilateral deafness, if it wasn't done by the breeder already when he was a puppy. That usually, but not always, has to be done at a university hospital. Patellas can be checked by your local vet. Hips and elbows require xrays, sometimes with sedation.

But, the question is, Why? Unless your dog has the symptoms of some disease, or you are intending to breed him, it would cost you a lot of money to do all this, and you'd just be borrowing trouble. Even the (simple for the dog) DNA test, if it came back positive for a predisposition for some disease wouldn't mean he'd necessarily GET it... it would only mean he was more likely to get it than the general population. So you'd have that hovering over your head to worry about all the time.

I can see doing this if you have a mixed breed and you have no idea what genetics are behind him. But in the case of a purebred Havanese, we already know what diseases are more likely, (not many, as we have a relatively healthy breed) and can keep those in mind as our dogs get older.


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yeah save your money. , the human ancestry companies are not accurate and I think the dog ones even less.


----------



## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

My gut tells me it is a waste of money. Yet I still wondered if any Havanese owners have done it. I "think" we'd all get the same results.
The person I know that did it had a mixed breed dog. She did the Embark


----------



## NickieTwo (Jun 17, 2013)

One of the tests supposedly gives DNA matches. If true, that could be fun since our havs should all be related. For example, our Nickie and Louis are (on paper) 1/2 2nd cousins 3 times removed to Kodi - fairly distant. Genealogy and DNA addict here, but we haven't tested the havs.


----------



## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

We probably have members on here with dogs that are related and they don't even realize it. I would love to meet the other Havs from Shadow's litter!


----------



## cishepard (Apr 8, 2018)

I had Bingo (a mixed breed) DNA tested with the highest level Embark kit. the breed breakdown was fairly accurate as far as we knew about his parents. They test for 165 different health related conditions, all of which he is clear of, plus they keep his sample on file so whenever a new test becomes available, he will be tested for it at no extra charge. They specifically pointed out the breed specific conditions for his mix.
My feeling is that if he _were_ genetically predisposed to a condition, it could be one that I could take steps to avoid becoming a reality, through diet, supplements and careful observation.
Some other interesting aspects of the test are gene dominant/recessive breakdowns for coat textures and colours (I'm sure these are more predictable in a purebred), and other body features like hind declaws, size, eye colour etc. All of these were accurate.

I did the test for fun, but I did learn a lot of interesting information from it.


----------



## Edie Swenson (Mar 16, 2020)

Hello!
Our vet plan covers DNA testing, and we just got the results for Archie this week. I'm puzzled because I expected them to say he's 100% Havanese (according to the breeder and he is registered with the AKC). Here is what the DNA test reported:
75% Havanese; 12.5% Maltese; 12.5% Breed Groups. The Family Tree diagram indicates one Havanese parent and one Havanese Maltese Breed Group(s) parent.

I am wondering if this type of result is typical of a purebred dog? It's more a curiosity, as we love him to pieces and his "heritage" doesn't matter to us at all. Except, of course, unless the breeder hasn't been honest. However, I'm not jumping to that conclusion at this point. 

Anyone have any additional knowledge about this? I'm going to discuss with the vet at Archie's next appointment.
Thanks,
Edie


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

tune into Jessica https://petprofessionalguild.com/event-3668533


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> tune into Jessica https://petprofessionalguild.com/event-3668533


I know Jessica personally, and she's great!

The problem with genetic testing on Havanese, is that the Havanese breed as we know it is a "construct" to start with, made up of a number of different dogs that looked similar but had no known genetic relationship to start with when Dorothy Goodale "resurrected" the breed, not all that long ago. That gave us a tremendous amount of genetic diversity. That's not a bad thing, and she really had no options at the time, since there WAS no DNA testing even available then.

Fast forward to now, these "genetic testing" services are meant mostly for pet people who have dogs of completely unknown heritage, coming from rescue. Whatever they are told, they can't argue with it, because they truly don't know!!! They are just happy to have some "proof" of what their dogs "ancestry" might be. For fun.

If AKC wants DNA testing on a litter of puppies to prove parentage, they ALSO want DNA testing on both supposed parents. Then they can either match to those samples and say "Yes, these are the parents" or "no, these are not the parents" I was involved in THAT kind of testing for my Panda because she came from a (purposefully) dual-sired litter, where the bitch was bred to two sires. So all the puppies had to be DNA tested to determine (with certainty) which sire was the dad of each pup before they were registered with AKC. We were PRETTY certain, just based on looks, color, and coat-type, but you just can't (or certainly shouldn't!!!) make those mistakes with purebred dogs!

But to send in DNA on a purebred Havanese, it's not really surprising that one of these services would "find" other genetic material. Our breed is closely related to Maltese and the other Bichon breeds. They DO share a lot of DNA. No surprise there at all! The number of purebred Havanese DNA samples in their own database is too small for them to do an accurate analysis.

I am SURE that as long as you got your pup from a reputable breeder and not from a pet store or internet site, your breeder was honest with you, and that your little guy is a purebred Havanese, and you don't need to worry about it!!!


----------



## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

@krandall We had to do the DNA test on Denver as he was also a purposeful dual-sire litter and with colouring, etc we were very wrong on the guesses for parentage . But it was definitely a fun wait for those test results to come in. And now with everything else, we are STILL waiting for his papers (and his sisters who my breeder kept to show).


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Wulfin said:


> @krandall We had to do the DNA test on Denver as he was also a purposeful dual-sire litter and with colouring, etc we were very wrong on the guesses for parentage . But it was definitely a fun wait for those test results to come in. And now with everything else, we are STILL waiting for his papers (and his sisters who my breeder kept to show).


Not sure why it would take so long... Panda's litter's DNA was all sorted out long before the puppies were ready to leave the breeder, so their registration papers were ready to be sent in changing ownership to the new owners (or in my case adding me as a co-owner then, although I own her outright now) as soon as the puppies went home. As many breeders do, Panda's breeder sent all the regitrations in herself, to make sure all puppies got registered properly.

With Kodi and Pixel, there was no DNA work needed, but I had everything I needed to send to AKC to get both of them registered properly the day I took them hime from the breeder. (She had already registered the litter)


----------



## Edie Swenson (Mar 16, 2020)

Thanks so much - this makes sense & is very helpful!!


----------



## Chasing Mayzie (Aug 16, 2016)

I am getting Mayzie DNA tested because I'm looking for an excuse for her to be so stinkin' fat. I think maybe the breeder forged her AKC papers and her papa is actually an Old English Sheepdog or something! For real, though, she is more than double the upper limits of typical Hav weight (my Pug and Pom aren't overweight(. I had her thyroid tested because she is also having some coat issues, and it came back low normal (1.2, range is 1 to 4). I didn't buy her from a great breeder, and she had a lot of health issues when she was a puppy, so it wouldn't surprise me if she wasn't really all Hav. It was a singleton litter, so no littermate to talk to. But I think DNA is worth it for that reason. The vet said it will be $170.


----------



## HavaMma (Feb 11, 2021)

Sooo, Edie, same thing happened to us a week ago! Our vet plan covers DNA testing and Picasso's came back as 75% Havanese, 12.5% Maltese and 12.5% Pomeranian! Huh? Wow!! His breeder is a reputable one that (supposedly?) breeds only purebred, AKC registered, Havanese. I have to say, the most important thing on the report was he had zero markers for and is clear from 159 genetic disease mutations. 

Picasso is going to be pretty small (4 months, 4 pounds) and is puffy and fluffy similar to a Pomeranian. He's a sable and cream colored chocolate Hav. Our 7-year-old was a much larger puppy and currently weighs 18+ pounds (Frisco's tall, black and white and very active.) Point being, they will have very different features about them, and after all, that's the very nature of Havanese, I suppose.


----------



## NickieTwo (Jun 17, 2013)

There is a free webinar "DNA for Dog Lovers" on April 7 on Legacy Webinars familytreewebinars.com The presenter, Shellee Morehead CG, is a professional genealogist and biologist. The webinar can probably also be viewed free for several days after that.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

HavaMma said:


> Sooo, Edie, same thing happened to us a week ago! Our vet plan covers DNA testing and Picasso's came back as 75% Havanese, 12.5% Maltese and 12.5% Pomeranian! Huh? Wow!! His breeder is a reputable one that (supposedly?) breeds only purebred, AKC registered, Havanese. I have to say, the most important thing on the report was he had zero markers for and is clear from 159 genetic disease mutations.
> 
> Picasso is going to be pretty small (4 months, 4 pounds) and is puffy and fluffy similar to a Pomeranian. He's a sable and cream colored chocolate Hav. Our 7-year-old was a much larger puppy and currently weighs 18+ pounds (Frisco's tall, black and white and very active.) Point being, they will have very different features about them, and after all, that's the very nature of Havanese, I suppose.


Which DNA testing did you do? Embark by any chance? Some DNA testing is known for getting some breeds, and particularly Havanese wrong. As long as your breeder is a reputable one, I would not worry about it. Many Havanese puppies have puffy undercoats. Their hair SHOULD continue to grow longer and longer however, NOT at all like a Pomeranian.


----------



## HavaMma (Feb 11, 2021)

krandall said:


> Which DNA testing did you do? Embark by any chance? Some DNA testing is known for getting some breeds, and particularly Havanese wrong. As long as your breeder is a reputable one, I would not worry about it. Many Havanese puppies have puffy undercoats. Their hair SHOULD continue to grow longer and longer however, NOT at all like a Pomeranian.


Thanks for the quick response! Our vet plan uses Wisdom Panel. Do you know which DNA testing gets it right or comes close? Now I'm wondering what would happen if we did another one. Just for the fun of it.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

HavaMma said:


> Thanks for the quick response! Our vet plan uses Wisdom Panel. Do you know which DNA testing gets it right or comes close? Now I'm wondering what would happen if we did another one. Just for the fun of it.


Sorry, I do not know for sure. But is there a reason you would be doubting your breeder? Have you discussed this with her?


----------



## Andy86 (Aug 2, 2021)

We got the wisdom DNAC for free through our vet as well and our "purebred havanese" came up mostly poodle. While we're not happy to have paid nearly 3k for a havanese and be having all the grooming issues of a poodle, she's healthy and we love her so.....


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Wisdom panels, etc. are not accurate when it comes to assessing the “breed” of MANY purebred dogs. That is not the purpose of the test. If you think tgere is a question about the parentage of you dog, you should approach AKC and ask for DNA testing of your puppy and both AKC registered parents.

We KNOW that Poodle and Havanese share enough DNA that that sort of result is common on a “pet panel”.


----------



## elisabeth (10 mo ago)

So, I am late to the game here, but my Vet also covered DNA and I just got Maggie's results. 75% Havanese and 25% "breed groups" This was done through Wisdom Health. 

We have tested Maggie's DNA for more than 150 disease-causing mutations. Below is a summary of our findings.
Congratulations! Maggie inherited zero copies of these disease mutations. Be sure to use our share feature to let your veterinarian know about Maggie’s results. For some of the conditions there may still be undiscovered mutations and/or environmental factors that could lead to similar disease signs. These clear results will help narrow down a future diagnosis if Maggie ever gets sick. 
Then there is a list of genetic health issues she has been cleared of.
Also a list of her traits...coloring, ear position, leg length etc.
I will try and post the family tree next.


----------



## elisabeth (10 mo ago)

So, I am late to the game here, but my Vet also covered DNA and I just got Maggie's results. 75% Havanese and 25% "breed groups" (Companion and Terrier)

This was done through Wisdom Health.

We have tested Maggie's DNA for more than 150 disease-causing mutations. Below is a summary of our findings.
Congratulations! Maggie inherited zero copies of these disease mutations. Be sure to use our share feature to let your veterinarian know about Maggie’s results. For some of the conditions there may still be undiscovered mutations and/or environmental factors that could lead to similar disease signs. These clear results will help narrow down a future diagnosis if Maggie ever gets sick.
Then there is a list of genetic health issues she has been cleared of.
Also a list of her traits...coloring, ear position, leg length etc.
I will try and post the family tree next.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

elisabeth said:


> So, I am late to the game here, but my Vet also covered DNA and I just got Maggie's results. 75% Havanese and 25% "breed groups" (Companion and Terrier)
> 
> This was done through Wisdom Health.
> 
> ...


Did you buy her as a purebred Havanese? Is she registered with AKC, and from a reputable breeder? If not, I would question the Wisdom panel results.


----------



## elisabeth (10 mo ago)

krandall said:


> Did you buy her as a purebred Havanese? Is she registered with AKC, and from a reputable breeder? If not, I would question the Wisdom panel results.


Yes, Yes, and Yes....So......


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

elisabeth said:


> Yes, Yes, and Yes....So......


So? I would ask Wisdom whether their panel is considered "reliable for testing a registered purebred animal". They may tell you that it is not, since all breeds have overlapping genes with other breeds. (except, perhaps, for a few of the MOST ancient breeds, and we are DEFINITELY not one of those) If they tell you that, no, they are quite sure your puppy is a crossbreed, you need to go back to your breeder, and ask for DNA testing on both parents.

I am betting on the first possibility, because of the number of times we've seen this happen on the forum. It bothers me that people even run these tests on registered, purebred dogs because of this.


----------



## elisabeth (10 mo ago)

krandall said:


> It bothers me that people even run these tests on registered, purebred dogs because of this.


I did it for genetic disease testing/probability


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

elisabeth said:


> I did it for genetic disease testing/probability


There are only a couple of diseases that Havanese can be tested for genetically, and even in those cases, the understanding of inheritance is VERY incomplete. having the gene does not mean your animal will get the disease. I can help guide breeding, in that two animals with the gene should probably not be bred together even if they do not exhibit symptoms of the disease, but the gene in it self means nothing in the absence of symptoms. 

And these companies could EASILY offer just the appropriate breed specific health testing and not cause problems and suspicions for puppy buyers and breeders if they left out faulty DNA testing that shows perfectly legitimate purbreds as mutts. If it were likely to be accurate it would be one thing, but most of the time in the past, they have not been. Which is why I kind of doubt yours is.


----------

