# Help me with breeder contract!!



## Parti47 (Apr 25, 2013)

I have been struggling to find a black Irish Pied puppy from a nearby breeder. I finally found a breeder (local club member) who at least had black & white parti's. I have been emailing back and forth with them and have suddenly grown very skeptical when reading the contract! It states that I have 5 days to check out the puppy with a vet! Only 5 days of guarantee. After the 5 days the pups have a 2 year guarantee only on genetic issues. That raised a red flag to me! I am new to this breed but that sounds fishy to me and I would LOVE to get some feedback from experienced owners and other breeders, please!! I would also like to know what soaping the legs refers to. Thanks


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

Soaping the legs is what you do when you want to see the bone structure of the front legs without the hair getting in the way. Havs could have bowed legs or Chondrodysplasia. A few of the forum dogs have bowed legs. Depending on the severity of it, if it is a pet or show, you may need surgery. My Jack's legs are bowed. He limps occasionally.

As for the guarantee stuff, someone else will have to chime in. I think that my contract had a 'see your vet in a couple of days' clause but I was going do that anyway so it didn't bother me.


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

The five day thing might be there for things like parasites, pink eye, other contagious diseases etc because the puppy can pick up those things from under your care, not the breeder. It's probably meant to protect the breeder from things like, say worst case scenario after a few weeks the puppy picks up parvovirus from a dog park and dies, then the owner comes back to the breeder and wants a free replacement puppy. Puppies are prone to getting sick and the breeder does not want to pay for puppy vet bills where the puppy got sick under the owner's care but the owner will say the puppy came already sick. It is meant to prove the puppy came healthy from the breeder and any illnesses (outside genetic ones) are the owner's responsibility.


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## ItsMare (May 3, 2008)

The clause about your puppy going to the vet is a very good thing, not negative at all. What the breeder is stating is that.. they are giving you the puppy in great condition and have themselves checked out their puppy prior to leaving. They are now having you confirm that with your vet of choice, so you are both on the same page from the get go. I think 5 days is a long time actually. No red flags there.. just the first step in proving to the new owner the puppy is what the breeder has said he/she is. Thats my take on it.


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## Parti47 (Apr 25, 2013)

I feel much better about the 5 day vet visit now! Thank you for your reassurance. Thanks also for the soaping reply. Does anyone see a problem with the 2 year guarantee for genetic issues?? I was under the impression that most reputable breeders had lifetime guarantees on their pups for hereditary issues.


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## ItsMare (May 3, 2008)

I personally dont see an issue with a 2 year guarantee. Even the best of Havanese breeders who do health testing with all good intentions, can have an offspring with a problem. It's nature. You can only do the best you can do. If God could place a lifetime
guarantee on our children..... ahhhh how wonderful would that be


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Parti47 said:


> I feel much better about the 5 day vet visit now! Thank you for your reassurance. Thanks also for the soaping reply. Does anyone see a problem with the 2 year guarantee for genetic issues?? I was under the impression that most reputable breeders had lifetime guarantees on their pups for hereditary issues.


While there ARE breeders who will write guarantees for the life of the dog, it is much more important to learn as much about your breeder as possible, and feel comfortable that they will stand behind the dog, and help you in emergencies. Some older breeders don't want to make life-time commitments because they don't know where THEY will be in 10 years. Also, what does a "guarantee cover". As far as I'm concerned, a "replacement" guarantee is worthless. VERY few people will give up their beloved pet if a genetic problem shows up 2 years down the line. Other contracts are written to cover "life threatening" genetic defects. The fact is that very few genetic defects are "life threatening", but they can be very expensive to fix. I do think that MOST (but not all) serious genetic defects are likely to show up during the first two years of a dog's life.

My breeder has a very generous contract, but has told me that it really comes down to the relationship you have with your breeder and their integrity more than anything else. It is very difficult to enforce a contract if something goes wrong. Law suits are expensive, and in general, the MOST you can be awarded is the purchase price of the dog. In many cases, this doesn't cover the cost of surgery to correct a bad problem.

I think the best "insurance" you can get is to see how healthy the other dogs's in your dog's family are. How long do they live? Do they have health problems? And of course, always make sure that the parents (and grand parents, etc.) have been fully health tested, and the results recorded with OFA and/or CHIC. (this is MUCH different than "vet checked")


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ItsMare said:


> I personally dont see an issue with a 2 year guarantee. Even the best of Havanese breeders who do health testing with all good intentions, can have an offspring with a problem. It's nature. You can only do the best you can do. If God could place a lifetime
> guarantee on our children..... ahhhh how wonderful would that be


This is true. And genetic problems are just one small piece of the trouble a puppy (or dog) can get themselves into. Kodi had an intestinal obstruction when he was about a year old, caused by a dental chew. (I had been told they were safe to feed.. THEY ARE NOT!!!) That was "just" an unfortunate event, caused by him biting off and swallowing too big a piece. But that "unfortunately event" cost me over $1600! That's life with animals and kids!


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## misstray (Feb 6, 2011)

I know there was a clause in my contract about taking Brody in for a vet check within a week (I believe). As I was visiting my parents when I picked Brody up (out of town for me) I wasn't able to do it until I got home (2 weeks) and my breeder was more than OK with that. I did take him to my parents' vet while I was visiting anyhow and then my own when we got back home.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

I think everyone has given you great advice!
I am a little confused about the color of hav you are looking for though ... a Black Irish Peid?? Isn't Peid the type of markings the hav has? IF they are BLACK they wouldn't have markings, right??


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## Miss Paige (Apr 4, 2008)

A black Irish Pied means it has more black than white coloring, but not a solid black . B/W Parti has more white than black or equal. My avatar picture is my Miss Paige who is a B/W Parti.


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## sandypaws (Aug 8, 2012)

*Help me with breeder contract*



TilliesMom said:


> I think everyone has given you great advice!
> I am a little confused about the color of hav you are looking for though ... a Black Irish Peid?? Isn't Peid the type of markings the hav has? IF they are BLACK they wouldn't have markings, right??


Tillie, my Bailey was a black and white Irish pied. In 1996, that pattern consisted of a black dog with white on all of the following areas: head, chest, around the neck, belly, legs and tail. Less than one half od the Dog's background color is white. I don't know if the same pertains to the Irish pied color pattern today, as so many things have changed since then.

Hope this helps define the pattern for you.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

interesting! thanks for clearing the 'pied' confusion up for me!!  now, I know!


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## trueblue (Jan 22, 2008)

Here's a good description of the different kinds of markings.

http://www.havanesecolors.com/base4.html


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## Georgette (Jan 3, 2013)

*I learned something today!*

From the link that Kim gave, I think I have an Irish Pied!


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Georgette said:


> From the link that Kim gave, I think I have an Irish Pied!


Looks like a black and white parti. An Irish Pied is white on the feet, tip of tail, and around the neck and chest, either no white or a little white on the face. In other words, the white is minimal and is supposed to look like the dog is wearing a cape.

Here's a picture of MJ, a black and white Irish pied:

Also, Vallee, a black and white parti:


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## Georgette (Jan 3, 2013)

*Got it!*

I think I understand. So Kobi is a black and white parti, correct?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Sort of the epitome of the Irish pied pattern is a Border Collie


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

What do you call them if your B/W Irish Pied puppy has the silvering gene? 

Jack started out as I guess as an Irish Pied. We picked him because he looked like a mini-Border Collie (so adorably-cute!). Now he is grey and white, no black to be found.


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

morriscsps said:


> What do you call them if your B/W Irish Pied puppy has the silvering gene?
> 
> Jack started out as I guess as an Irish Pied. We picked him because he looked like a mini-Border Collie (so adorably-cute!). Now he is grey and white, no black to be found.


Well then he would be called a "silver Irish Pied" instead of black irish pied.


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Here are two pictures of silver irish pied. One looks like he is in the middle of silvering since he has some darker areas that are growing out.


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