# Eyes & beard..what do you think?



## CinnCinn (Mar 30, 2007)

Okay, I really need some advice from the hav-pros on this forum.

What could be causing the stains around his eyes and mouth?

Rocky is 19 months old.

His diet is Nature's Variety Raw Medallions & Orijen dry dog food.

His treats are Free range chicken wrapped apples or carrots or liver treats.

My vet thought it could be allergy related, so he treated him with sterriods and had him allergy tested. Results came back negative for any food and/or environmental allergy. All the sterriods did was ruin his coat.

I tried Angel Eyes for a couple weeks - no results.

He gets a bath about every 8-10 days. I use Johnson's Baby shampoo around his face.

His eyes weep during the day and it irritates the area around his eyes. He chin just looks stained.

Any advice for me? Is it his age and something he'll grow out of?

Thank you!


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## Perugina (May 28, 2008)

You may want to try bottled water and give him one tbs of yogurt a day. It could be hereditary; some dogs have it more than others.


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## CinnCinn (Mar 30, 2007)

Thank you for reminding me. The boys only get bottled water. 

If hereditary - do they grow out of it??? He had it a little bit when really young. It completely went away and came back at about 14 months.


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## Renee (Mar 27, 2008)

Cindy,
Once you find that magical answer, let me know! My Miley has tear stains as well. No beard stains though. I just put her on Tylan powder this week (which is the antibiotic that's in Angel Eyes). I don't know if it's my imagination or not, but her eyes are looking much less "red". I wonder if 2 weeks on Angel Eyes is long enough to really know if it worked or not?? That would be my only suggestion...to put him on it a little bit longer (like maybe 6 weeks?)


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Cindy,
We battle muzzle staining here with Quincy. I scrub his beard as best I can every bath,but have had only a lightning of the staining. I think Quincy's culprit is the water bowl myself.....but I do not know. I was giving Quincy angel eyes for a few months and it was better then he has been in quite some time. I think you need to give it months and months to work. I would suggest you contact Jane if she doesn't reply to this thread as I know she has Lincoln a beautiful stain free face-eyes and muzzle. I've talked with her and she has some good advice along with the encouragement you need.:hug:


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## CinnCinn (Mar 30, 2007)

Thanks Julie & Renee! I truly appreciate any feedback or ideas.

Julie, what do you wash his muzzle with? Shampoo?? Rocky licks around the area I'm washing, therefore tastes the shampoo. Makes me feel bad.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I scrub as vigorously as I can with a whitening shampoo. It has did miracles for 4 white feet....not a stain on him anywhere but that muzzle/beard area. I think it is because I just can not rub it like I can on his feet. His nose holes get in the way,as well as I'm afraid of getting it in his eyes.

I use bio-groom whitening shampoo from PetEdge.

Do you think it could be the baby shampoo you are using? I wonder if that is possible?:ear:


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Renee said:


> Cindy,
> Once you find that magical answer, let me know! My Miley has tear stains as well. No beard stains though. I just put her on Tylan powder this week (which is the antibiotic that's in Angel Eyes). I don't know if it's my imagination or not, but her eyes are looking much less "red". I wonder if 2 weeks on Angel Eyes is long enough to really know if it worked or not?? That would be my only suggestion...to put him on it a little bit longer (like maybe 6 weeks?)


Renee,
The Angels Eyes can start showing improvement within 2 weeks. It just takes a longer time for it to really work all the way, I think. It makes the new hair growing out white, so it shows as soon as enough new hair has grown to be visible.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Julie said:


> Cindy,
> I would suggest you contact Jane if she doesn't reply to this thread as I know she has Lincoln a beautiful stain free face-eyes and muzzle. I've talked with her and she has some good advice along with the encouragement you need.:hug:


Jane,
I'd love it if you'd respond on the Forum here, to share with all of us. This is such an ongoing battle with most Havs.


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## CinnCinn (Mar 30, 2007)

Julie, rocky does chew on his front feet so they are a little stained too. I have the whitening shampoo - I'll try that this weekend. 

I'm having an "aha" moment. They aways drank from water bottle in a water stand, but since they weren't in a full coat any longer, I switched to a water bowl. That might be the difference?!


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

CinnCinn said:


> Julie, rocky does chew on his front feet so they are a little stained too. I have the whitening shampoo - I'll try that this weekend.
> 
> I'm having an "aha" moment. They aways drank from water bottle in a water stand, but since they weren't in a full coat any longer, I switched to a water bowl. That might be the difference?!


It sure could be for his muzzle, anyway! Let us know how much difference that makes.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

CinnCinn said:


> Julie, rocky does chew on his front feet so they are a little stained too. I have the whitening shampoo - I'll try that this weekend.
> 
> I'm having an "aha" moment. They aways drank from water bottle in a water stand, but since they weren't in a full coat any longer, I switched to a water bowl. That might be the difference?!


Hi Cindy,

That is probably aggravating the situation, rather than causing it. If the hair is wet for a long time, it just makes it more ideal for the bacteria/red yeast to grow.

I will put together a longer and more complete response in just a minute...


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Sheri said:


> Renee,
> The Angels Eyes can start showing improvement within 2 weeks. It just takes a longer time for it to really work all the way, I think. It makes the new hair growing out white, so it shows as soon as enough new hair has grown to be visible.


I agree, once Smarty's was clear I went to every other day, then to once a week now she has no staining.


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

Julie said:


> I scrub as vigorously as I can with a whitening shampoo. It has did miracles for 4 white feet....not a stain on him anywhere but that muzzle/beard area. I think it is because I just can not rub it like I can on his feet. His nose holes get in the way,as well as I'm afraid of getting it in his eyes.
> 
> I use bio-groom whitening shampoo from PetEdge.
> 
> Do you think it could be the baby shampoo you are using? I wonder if that is possible?:ear:


Julie I use the same shampoo on Lilly and her muzzle stains all but disappear. I also folow it with the Pure paws reconstructive shampoo and coat handler conditioner. The pure paws by itself was making her coat look dull and dingy is the reason I use both.

Cindy I hope you find a solution to your stain problem.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

*Tylan for Muzzle Staining*

I have been battling Lincoln's muzzle stains on and off for awhile, ever since he was about a year old. They emerged almost overnight - within a 2 week period. The only solution I've found is Tylan powder (aka Tylosin, also the active ingredient in Angels Eyes). It is an antibiotic, so it really was my last resort after trying umpteen home remedies, peroxide, whitening shampoos, denture cleaner, etc.

There are several different sources of staining. But, if your Hav's staining is caused by red yeast/bacteria, then the Tylan will help.

I started with 1/32nd of a teaspoon of pure Tylan powder (just eyeballing it from my 1/8 tsp spoon that I have), every day. Lincoln didn't like the bitter taste, so I mixed it into a dab of peanut butter.

For muzzle staining, like Lincoln has had, I kept him on it for about 3 months, then gradually clipped out the stained hairs, one by one (not all at once). (Tylan will not doing anything to whiten the already-stained hairs. It will only cause the new hair to grow out unstained.) Then, I started using the Tylan every other day for 4-6 weeks, then I decreased again to using it twice a week for 4-6 weeks. At that point, once he was looking good, I took him off of it. Unfortunately, his staining returned 6 mos. later, so he is on Tylan again right now (at the 2x/week stage). I am debating whether to just keep him on it 2x/week or go off it again.

For muzzle staining too, _it will look like there is NO improvement for a long time. _Then one day, after 3 months, you sort of see it. It's kind of weird! So, don't give up prematurely because it doesn't look like it is working.

A word of caution: someone warned me that you shouldn't use Tylan with a dog who is still getting its adult teeth in, because it can cause stains on the emerging teeth.

I'd rather treat the underlying cause than to just keep going on and off the course of Tylan. So, I have been poking around on the Internet trying to figure out _why_ some dogs are more susceptible to staining - there is some thought that they have some allergy or sensitivity that affects their immune system at a low level, making it harder for their bodies to fight off a bacterial/red yeast infection (the source of the staining). I have switched Lincoln's food, hoping to eliminate any ingredients he might be sensitive to. So, we'll see what happens.

Here are two photos, one before (with stains) and one after the Tylan treatment.


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## CinnCinn (Mar 30, 2007)

Thank you Jane! Does Lincoln drink from a water bottle or bowl? Did he ever have the staining around his eyes? Does he have any allergies? Rocky was about a year old too. Strange, I wonder if it has anything to do with their teeth coming in? What do you use to scrub his muzzle when bathing him? a wash cloth? I know, I have too many questions, don't I?!

The skin around Rocky's eyes looks irritated and sore. His muzzle just looks stained. Maybe they are 2 separate issues?

Has anyone tried Eye Envy? That is what my groomer is now recommending. It's a topical that removes the stain, which makes them look good, but doesn't solve the real problem.

I've tried many of the home remedies too. Peroxide with MOM, etc...


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

Cindy Eye Envy does not work. It's really basically Stidex (zit pads) with an eye cleaner, such as Bausch & Lombe on it, and the herbal powder I really think made no difference. Although I was only religious for about six weeks...but that sure seems like a long time.

Wow! Jane! I can't believe how dramatic the change was using the Angel Eyes...I did notice when Posh was on an antibiotic for her tick bite her eyes did seem less dark/red brown goobers non existant.

It really makes me tempted to use the Angel Eyes on Posh...but I am very conflicted about that.

Mostly I've just tried to ignore the staining...but her staining isn't quite this dramatic.

Good luck Cindy.


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

Has anyone thought about using collidial silver (spelling?) as a natural antibiotic and if so, I think you actually put it into their eye?


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## Renee (Mar 27, 2008)

I've only used the Tylan powder since Tuesday, but the skin right around her eyes no longer looks red and irritated. Also, she hasn't had the goopy tears, which made her stains look worse. So my theory is she did/does have a low level bacteria infection in her system. Still to early to tell, I know. I'm anxious to watch as her new hair grows if it's reddish brown, or the beautiful white that the rest of her body has.
I know the tylan powder is controversial, as it is an antibiotic. But if our dogs do have a low level bacterial infection, isn't in their best interest to rid them of it?
The vet said not to be concerned about getting a tolerance to antibiotics, as she is using so little of it. 
I think if you've tried everything else suggested here, and your dog has their adult teeth, than Tylan powder is definitely a viable option. 
And it's DEFINITELY cheaper than Angel Eyes!
I mix Miley's Tylan powder with a little ham salad...I don't even think she tastes the ham salad she wolfs it down so fast!


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

CinnCinn said:


> Thank you Jane! Does Lincoln drink from a water bottle or bowl? Did he ever have the staining around his eyes? Does he have any allergies? Rocky was about a year old too. Strange, I wonder if it has anything to do with their teeth coming in? What do you use to scrub his muzzle when bathing him? a wash cloth? I know, I have too many questions, don't I?!
> 
> The skin around Rocky's eyes looks irritated and sore. His muzzle just looks stained. Maybe they are 2 separate issues?
> 
> ...


Hi Cindy,

Both my boys drink for a water bottle. Neither have tear/eye staining. When Lincoln's muzzle stains first emerged, I found reddish stains also between the pads of his front feet. The pad staining also disappeared after the Tylan treatment.

Lincoln is allergic to sweet potatoes and morning glories.

I just wash his muzzle normally when I bathe him, with a whitening shampoo. The Tylan has taken care of the staining issue, thankfully.

I have tried Eye Envy and it did not work at all on muzzle stains. But Lincoln's brother also used it for his tear staining, and it did help, but you have to be very diligent and use it every day. She ended up using Tylan instead - it is easier. She sprinkles a teeny tiny amount on his food every other day.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Renee said:


> I know the tylan powder is controversial, as it is an antibiotic. But if our dogs do have a low level bacterial infection, isn't in their best interest to rid them of it?
> The vet said not to be concerned about getting a tolerance to antibiotics, as she is using so little of it.


I also asked my vet about the risks of keeping Lincoln on it long term. When she found out how _tiny_ the dose was, she said it really shouldn't cause problems. Also, it is a narrow-spectrum antibiotic. I felt that it wasn't just a cosmetic issue - it concerned me that there was bacteria/yeast growing rampant on Lincoln's face.


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## Poornima (Jun 29, 2007)

Lizzie and Benji both have some muzzle staining but nothing severe in my opinion. My question is, what happens if the staining is left untreated? Can the bacteria cause a health risk in the long run?


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## CinnCinn (Mar 30, 2007)

Poornima, I would say yes. It is progressively getting worse even with weekly baths. He is so good about bathing, I don't want to change that, but I think we'll do daily gentle face washes.

I already have the Angel Eyes, I'll put that back in his meals and see what happens.

Thank you everyone! I put the water bottle back today. No more water bowls. I'll keep you posted.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Cindy, Jasper had terrible tear stains and some muzzle stains, I did Jane's method with the Tylan powder and they went away and did not come back. I have not given him any tylan in over a year. I know if he eats wheat he gets eye stains again (but he loves penne so much...) 

I seem to remember you were using Primal before.... right? if so when did you switch to NV? NV (which I use) NV has a ton of exotic ingredients... so could be the cause... 

I know many have tried adding yogurt or prozyme powder too.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Jane, and Renee,
How do you get Tylan without going the route of Angels eyes? What dose do you use?


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## CinnCinn (Mar 30, 2007)

Thanks Missy. You're right, I did use Primal and switched to NV about 6 months ago. That could be the culprit. Primal is hard to come by out here. I actually liked it better, it's easier to cut up into smaller bites. The boys inhale the raw food so fast I have to serve it to them in small pieces or they poop it back out in large medallions. LOL!!! (That was probably to much information) ) I'll see if I can't find some. NV is more popular so the store stopped carrying Primal. 

Stay warm!


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

I have also heard that if their food had beet pulp in it that can cause the eye and muzzle staining. Since switching mine to Evo small bites chicken there hasn't been any staining. 
Also, I noticed Vinny had some muzzle staining when I was giving him the Puperroni (sp) treats and it has gone away since stopping them.
Another thing I have noticed is that Lulu's eyes seem to tear more in the really cold weather. 
Wheat seems to be another trigger for Lulu.
Anyway, these are just a few things I've noticed. Let us know how things work out.
Carole


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

also cindy, is the orijen new too? that might be easier to eliminate first.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Sheri said:


> Jane, and Renee,
> How do you get Tylan without going the route of Angels eyes? What dose do you use?


I bought Tylan powder from here:

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=f6a45179-f44b-42f5-9552-dcee93bea6da

It is a lifetime supply, really. I ended up splitting it with two other Hav owners and I still have a lot!

I use 1/32nd of a teaspoon. (I have a 1/8 teaspoon measuring spoon, and I eyeball it from there).


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

That's an interesting idea. Many years ago you could get a solution from a pharmacy. I no longer know if this is true but will try to research it. It would be a lot safer than an antibiotic.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Thanks, Jane.


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## Milo's Mom (Aug 31, 2008)

For Milo I alwaus use bottled water and give him one quarter teaspoon of I-Stain once a day. This is a probiotic, not an antibiotic. I also rub a small amount of corn starch near the corner of his eyes once a day (being careful not to get it in his eyes). This dries up any "gunk" and then I comb it out with a flea comb. The results have been great!


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

Cindy, where is Rocky from? I ask because I've heard that it may be partly genetic and my Cooper has horrible tear staining, much the same as you explained Rocky's, and muzzle staining also. His eye's are always tearing and have wet, red, globs in them. I feel so horrible about it and really feel like it's a losing battle. 
Cooper came from Grandview Havanese and his dam was from Flaming Geysers.

My Maltese also has bad tear staining, but his are dry and he gets the little crusty's that have to be cleaned out. 

It makes me so sad, and I feel like the worst mom when I read that it's due to bad grooming habits because my DH and I try and try and nothing seems to make a bit of difference. 

We use filtered water, we have been giving Tylan daily, we clean the eye area daily and I still just want to cry when I look at him.

I wanted to use NV because they are a local company, just down the road from us, but everytime I try, Cooper starts itching right away.

I've been using the Spa facial scrub, but just received a bottle of Ikaria facial scrub from Pet Edge so I'll see if that does any better of a job.

I clean the flea comb with soap and water, then alcohol every day so I don't cross contaminate either dog with anything. 

Lily the Bichon mix has the least trouble, she is also gray and a little larger.

It is very discouraging and makes me so sad!
Beverly


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## CinnCinn (Mar 30, 2007)

Beverly - Rocky is Los Perritos in Florida. My other Hav, Rudy, is from Flaming Geyser and has no staining issues - he's also black, so harder to see. 
I do not agree that it's poor grooming, maybe in some situations, but not in mine and I'm sure not in yours. My pups have more grooming products that I do, and more expensive at that. My hesitation is scrubbing him so much that he starts to hate it. He's super easy to bath and loves being brushed. I want to keep it that way. 

Here's an update: I've added Angel Eyes back into his diet and switched back to Primal raw medallions. Lucky Dog (my favorite dog store) is going to order me several bags and keep me in stock. Within the last 4 days, I've noticed his eyes have dried up. The wetness seems to be gone, although, he's scratching at his eyes now and didn't do that before.


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## iluvhavs (Jul 21, 2008)

Cindy - I was giving Rico the Free Range Sweet potato/chicken wraps and it was causing his staining to increase. i know when I give him carrott biscuits it gets bad also.

Try eliminating the Free Range treats and see if it helps.


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## iluvhavs (Jul 21, 2008)

I didn't read this whole post:

Beverly, my Rico is a Rocky dog and he has terrible staining, but it's caused by his undersized tearducts making tears run down his face. The opthamologist prescribed cyclosporine to treat his dry eye and that causes excessive tearing, which goes through the ducts, and out his nose causing bad staining around his nose and mouth. The staining is caused by a bacteria or yeast that grows where the hair is always wet. Angel Eyes has helped as has tetracycline, but I don't like to use the antibiotic, so he is usually stained. 

Cindy, don't let his eyes be too dry. If he looks like his eyes have lost their luster, that means the cornea is dry and it can cause major damage over time. 

This whole tear staining thing is kind of a vicious circle.


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## iluvhavs (Jul 21, 2008)

Someone mentioned Peroxide. My vet screams when he hears this! Very bad for the eyes and skin!! Rico's skin around his eyes gets inflamed if I don't get on the wetness everyday and use that flea brush to comb out the crusties.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Oh yes, peroxide is very bad for dogs. If I understand CinnCinn's comment correctly, it looks like she is referring to a recipe that is commonly used that only has hydrogen peroxide as one ingredient in a three-part mixture for putting on the hair. It isn't meant to be a leave-in either.


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## CinnCinn (Mar 30, 2007)

Vicious circle it is!

Thanks for clarifying Kimberly - yes, it was a combo mixture that included peroxide. You brush it on when you're giving them a bath, leave it in for a few minutes and then wash it out. All it did was dry the hair out. I do not recommend it.

Rory, thanks for the tip on dryness. I was giving Rocky 1/8 tsp. of Angel Eyes twice a day, and it was too drying for him. I cut the dosage in 1/2. It seems like such a small amount compared to the directions, but it's working.

He had a good bath today. I used a whitening shampoo and a soft brush on his feet. He's such a good boy!

We've made some pretty major changes - back to the water bottle, back to Primal Raw Nuggets, Angel eyes, more face washing.....I think if I take away his free range chicken wrapped apples he may just have a melt down. 

Although, if push comes to shove.....


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## CinnCinn (Mar 30, 2007)

I thought I'd share an update on Rocky. We've been working for almost 4 weeks to clear up Rocky's eyes and mouth and are making progress!! :whoo:

Here's what is working for us.
1/8 tsp of Angel Eyes once a day.
Back to a water bottle instead of a water bowl.
Switched back to Primal Beef raw nuggets.
Several good baths.

Thanks again for all the great advice!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Yay!!! good news Cindy! boy is he a cutie... reminds me of Jasper.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Cindy,
Yeah!!! Great news, and he looks darling!!

I'm looking forward to meeting you and your pups in March!


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

He looks terrific Cindy! What a big happy smile too!

I can see you keep the hair trimmed around his eyes, have you always done this? I'm trying to decide about growing my guys out...well I'm trying to grow it out to see if slicking it out of the way might help...but maybe just keeping it trimmed short all the time would be the best. This problem is making me absolutely nuts.

Beverly


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## CinnCinn (Mar 30, 2007)

Missy - both my boys remind me of yours! Especially Cash in his red sweater. Rudy has one just like it and I have to take a double look when I see that picture.

Thanks Sheri, I'm looking forward to meeting you two too. I just picked up supplies to make the back drop for the Breed Booth. From what I've learned, we'll be a very busy booth.

Beverly, I'm with you on that! It can make you nuts, especially when you can't find the solution. Since the boys were cut down to a puppy cut, I've cut the hair around their eyes. I'm going to keep cutting Rocky's until all the stained hair has grown out and is gone. I'm trying to grow his coat back out, but we'll see. We have more fun when I'm not worried about getting muddy and matts. LOL


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## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

Cindy, he looks great! What sweet boys you have


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Cindy, I hadn't realized til these recent pictures how white Rocky has become...Just like Jasper too. And a funny coincidence...we had named Jasper Rudy until he came home and he just wasn't a Rudy!


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## iluvhavs (Jul 21, 2008)

very nice! Rocky rocks! I have started using Angel Eyes on Rico and it works wonders!


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## RickR (Feb 15, 2007)

Cindy, Rocky is looking so good. He is such a sweet looking boy.
I have used Angel Eyes on Bessie. She didn't have eye staining but
muzzle staining. The Angel Eyes has worked great. Hope to see all of you
again. 
Paula


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## Redorr (Feb 2, 2008)

What a cute guy Rocky is, running around in the sunshine. Glad you are having some success on the staining. I can honestly say that I know my mother never fretted over me as much as I fret over Lola. Well, maybe fret isn't the right word...spend on, coddle, cuddle, bathe, groom, walk, playcare, train, etc...gotta love our Havs!


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Wow Cindy - what a difference!! Looks great!!!!!


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## CinnCinn (Mar 30, 2007)

Thanks everyone. I'm just so happy we're getting it under control and there is light at the end of the muzzle.


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## Renee (Mar 27, 2008)

Cindy~
Glad to hear you've got the staining under control! It is a good feeling when you look at their little faces and see their beautiful white fur instead of the unsightly stains. Here are some before and after pics of Miley. She's still on the Tylan powder, but the stains are SO much better. I'm HOPING they'll be completely gone in a month or two...

*BEFORE*









*AFTER*


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## RikiDaisyDixie (Apr 15, 2008)

*neem shampoo*

Neem shampoo has no soap in it, so if they lick it, it isn't as awful. It is a natural alternative and doesn't dry the skin or coat. It doesn't take away the stains but it can be used to wash the muzzle often without a challenge.

I have noticed that black and white dogs tend to really stain. Riki hardly stains at all. Daisy and her black and white friends have a great deal of it. Also her coat is growing in darker around the mouth and it makes her face look dirty. Thank goodness the area around her eyes are black!

Good luck.
My dogs won't eat all the suggestions that people have given us over the years. All they like is their raw food and nothing else.


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## ls-indy (Apr 10, 2008)

BeverlyA said:


> He looks terrific Cindy! What a big happy smile too!
> 
> I can see you keep the hair trimmed around his eyes, have you always done this? I'm trying to decide about growing my guys out...well I'm trying to grow it out to see if slicking it out of the way might help...but maybe just keeping it trimmed short all the time would be the best. This problem is making me absolutely nuts.
> 
> Beverly


Beverly - I keep going round and round with this issue also. Daisy had some tear staining in December. She was spayed then - and I wonder if she became stressed or if it was the medication or something.... I got some tylan powder from the vet, but never gave it to her since I noticed the new hair growth was white and I don't want to use tylan except as a last resort. But the hair around her eyes starts discoloring at about 1/3" to 1/2" long. The groomer had cut it around her eyes - but I'm not sure whether I would rather grow it out, trim it until all the stained hair is grown out, or just keep it trimmed. It looks great trimmed up, but I'm not sure that the trimming didn't aggravate her eyes and START the staining in the first place! I stress more over Daisy's hair than I do my own! LOL


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

My guys seem to just keep getting worse and worse. I can't believe the stress, frustration and plain unhappiness this causes me.

I look at Cooper and Winston's little faces and it just makes me sad.


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## moxie (Feb 6, 2008)

I heard a new one yesterday....powdered buttermilk, a bit added to their food.
Haven't tried it yet, but like the natural sound of it.
Someone's vet at the pet store suggested it.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

CinnCinn said:


> Thanks everyone. I'm just so happy we're getting it under control and there is light at the end of the muzzle.


Cindy,
ound: ound:
Clever! Love it!


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Cindy, that is great news! Rocky looks amazing and so handsome!


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

Cindy - you said you "switched back" to Primal Nuggets. What had you been feeding when the staining was really bad?

I don't know whether to use Primal Nuggets or Natures Variety - they seem pretty similar but I'm wondering if that was part of your change?

Louise


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## jabellar (Jul 9, 2008)

Castro's stains immediately disappeared when he moved to RAW. But right around Christmas time, he started tearing and staining again. We thought it was the tree, so we disposed of it as soon as the holidays were over. He's still tearing and staining to this day, and it seems to be getting worse.

We are so sad about this, since we make it a point to clean his eyes every day - without fail! He is on NV RAW, drinks bottled water from a metal bowl, takes parsley in his food, and have tried almost every trick ever written on this forum.

When I was at Westminster last week, one of the vendors suggested "Peace and Kindness" from Chris Christensen (http://www.chrissystems.com/peace.htm)... of course, I bought one and have been using it religiously since. No visible results yet....

I got received my bottle of Tylan powder and am beginning that now... Wish us luck!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

The only think I know to try that you haven't is switching to a ceramic bowl for his water. the tylan should work. good luck. What about new treats? anything new start around Christmas?


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## Renee (Mar 27, 2008)

BeverlyA said:


> My guys seem to just keep getting worse and worse. I can't believe the stress, frustration and plain unhappiness this causes me.
> 
> I look at Cooper and Winston's little faces and it just makes me sad.


Hey Beverly...
Have you tried the Tylan powder yet? I can't BELIEVE what a difference it's made in Miley. It's been 6 weeks since she's been on it (1/32 of a tsp per day), and her eye stains are gone. I looked down at her the other day, and her fur is completey white now. I counted back, and it's been exactly 6 weeks. There's a few stained hairs that will have to grow out. But her eyes look SO much better! I think I will give her the Tylan every other day for awhile, and then take her off completely. 
I got it from our vet in Grand Island, but you can order it off the internet too.
I can't WAIT to take her into the vet to show her off. The vet thought the Tylan powder was "voo-doo" but gave it to me anyway. 
It makes me SO happy not to have to look at those unsightly eye stains....


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## CinnCinn (Mar 30, 2007)

Hello Everyone~ I've been out of town - sorry it's taken so long to catch up.

Louise, I started my guys on Primal raw nuggets and they loved it. Primal is a little hard to get here, so I ended up switching to Nature's Variety raw. That's when the stained started. We're back to Primal!

Lynda, I'm wondering that myself. Does the trimming the hair around the eyes somehow cause an irritation that starts the staining and then it gets progressively worse without treatment? It's something to watch for.

Linda, thanks for the tip on Neem Shampoo - is it easy to find? That will be a MUST have.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Hey Cindy, how is your pack doing? I am considering switching to Primal since NV went up so much in price. (you actually get 4 lbs of primal to the 3 of NV) Did you have to switch your boys slowly from the NV back to the Primal? any loose poops? I know the primal has a greater % of produce than the NV.


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## murphymoesmamma (Apr 1, 2009)

*Angel Eyes*

My Murphy has alot of pinkish red staining around his eyes. Sometimes his eyes tear so much that his muzzle gets wet. He gets a bath every Saturday with a whitening shampoo and I wash his face with a wet cloth several times a week. I have been reading about Angel Eyes but I thought the Angel Eyes that I saw at Superpetz was an eyewash. Can anyone clear this up?


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## Ana's Mojito (Sep 24, 2007)

Has anyone tried Eye Envy? That is what my groomer is now recommending. It's a topical that removes the stain, which makes them look good, but doesn't solve the real problem.

I've tried many of the home remedies too. Peroxide with MOM, etc...[/QUOTE]

Hi,
Mojito has stained badly under his eyes and on the muzzle area. I didn't think allergies could be a problem. I suspect he's allergic to either corn or soy because he had stomach problems with the ProPlan, and since I switched to a hollistic kibble (Nutra Gold) that's soy and corn-free, his stomach is ok.

I've tried the Eye Envy, but I have to confess I haven't been consistent using it... So I haven't seen any changes. I am using Diamond right now, and the cotton does come off with the reddish color on it, but he's still stained. I got a hold of the Tylan, but haven't started using it.

I've tried the MOM and peroxide 10 vol too but hasn't worked. I found today a 20 vol bottle of peroxide, so I want to try it again. I'm just afraid the hair will be damaged if the peroxide is so strong? What strength did you use?
He drinks from a bottle, but he still gets wet... Only drinks bottled water with a few drops of lemon or vinegar, they say it changes the ph and it's supposed to help, but I haven't seen any improvement...


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## Ana's Mojito (Sep 24, 2007)

BeverlyA said:


> My guys seem to just keep getting worse and worse. I can't believe the stress, frustration and plain unhappiness this causes me.
> 
> Mojito too... I was so happy I had finally found the 20vol Peroxide today, until I read a while ago it didn't do anything for someone here on the forum, just dry out the coat... Mojito won't eat his food if I put Angel Eyes in it, even if I put in on ham or something yummy, he detects it...
> 
> ...


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## Patti McNeil (Apr 20, 2009)

I tried Eye Envy solution and powder on Toby's muzzle and got no results. When he first came home from the groomer, he had very light tear stains and my vet said it was okay to give him a tiny amount of Angel Eyes. I did so for a week and haven't had to use it since then.


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## kelly (May 16, 2009)

*Angel Eye - Angels Delight*

Have any of you heard about Angels Delight from the Bichon Hotel - I just ordered it yesterday to help with eye staining. It seems to create an atmosphere where the red yeast will not want to attach to the teared area. I also ordered the paste. Have any of you heard of this product or the success with it?


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## Patti McNeil (Apr 20, 2009)

*Before/After Only One Week of Angel Eyes*

I'm going to Google it now and do some research. Please let me know how it works for you. Here are before and after Angel Eyes pics of Toby (two before and two after)....


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## Chasza (Dec 10, 2008)

Ana's Mojito,

I don't have this problem, so I don't have any advice for you. I did have a question, tho. You said you were going to try the 20vol Peroxide. Since you shouldn't give this internally, I am assuming you are planning on putting it around his eyes? I don't understand why anyone would put a caustic/acid agent around any eyes --- I perceive this as dangerous. Even if you were extremely, extremely careful and made sure there was no liquid that came in contact with the eyes (which I doubt that anyone could be this careful), even so, the fumes from it must be very irritating. I just don't understand the thoughts about using peroxide near eyes as this seems quite dangerous and irritating. 

Back in Feb, Renee said that her vet thought the Tylan powder was not worth trying, but gave it to her anyway. He must not have known it was an antibiotic (I have met vets who have never heard of it unless they grew up around farms). I use it only when needed for a medical condition that my dogs have that only Tylan powder is effective for (it is used 'off-label' for this purpose). I did want to say that since it is an antibiotic, to be careful and not use it long, long term, and to follow up with probiotics (2 hours after a meal, and for several months following treatment) since it will kill off the good gut flora as well as the bad bugs. It has a horrible taste, which is why some dogs detect it and won't eat it. Noteworthy to mention is that the msds says that you should not touch it with your hands or breathe it in. I pour some out into a small jar, and am careful not to move the powder to the extent it will be 'up in the air' much. Also, I use food grade disposable gloves bought at warehouse club so that I can throw those away afterwards. Apparently, continued skin contace can cause reactions in humans. Just wanted to mention this.

I don't know if this would help -- but I am wondering if once someone tried the Tylan powder, and it worked, if they then continued on with only probiotics if maybe keeping the good flora renewed in the gut would help to fight off whatever it is causing the staining once the original staining was gone. I don't have any experience -- just a thought about this.


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## Ana's Mojito (Sep 24, 2007)

"You said you were going to try the 20vol Peroxide. Since you shouldn't give this internally, I am assuming you are planning on putting it around his eyes?"

Hello Chasza,
yes, I meant putting the peroxide on an equal-parts mixture with milk of magnesia and cornstarch on the stained area (not too close to the eyes because of that), then letting it dry, brushing it out and then rinsing well and moisturizing. It's a common recipe for dog's fur staining, but I was asking about it before trying. I'm assuming the other two ingredients help with the fumes, and the cornstarch makes it into a thick paste so it's not runny. I've tried it before with no results, but I've used the 10 vol. peroxide, and he's had no irritated eyes or skin.

When you say you used the Tylan not for long, how many days is that? I've read some people use it for 2 weeks? I haven't tried Tylan. In which form do you get the probiotics? I used to find natural yogurt with probiotics, I can't find it anymore. 

Thanks for the skin contact advice, if I try the Tylan I'll do the gloves. 

You're lucky your dogs don't stain, it's a nightmare... I used to feed Mojito natural yogurt everyday, (a tsp) to keep his flora in good shape, but it started making his stools runny.... That's why I'm very interested in learning of other forms of probiotics to feed him.

thanks


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## murphymoesmamma (Apr 1, 2009)

This eye muzzle staining thing seems to be very common. Before I got Murphy I used to think that people who had dogs with tear staining were not caring for them properly. Then along came Murphy and that theory went right out the window! He has terrible eye staining and I just hate what that does to his sweet little face. His eyes always seem as though they are irritated. I am thinking about calling the vet to see if she will prescribe Tylan for him.

Holly & Murphy Moe


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Tucker was starting pretty bad eye staining as a puppy, and by around a year old I finally tried the Angel Eyes with tylan. (I'm thinking that is the name of the brand, there are two named similarly, but the one I'm talking about is the one with the Tylan in it.) I gave it to him for about 3-4 weeks, until I could see a nice clear space around his eyes, about half-an-inch. I haven't used it since. His muzzle could be whiter, but I'm not obsessive about that, and won't use it just for that. I do give him probiotics, and occasionally, yogurt.

This picture is of him at about 2 years of age, just a couple of months ago.


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## kelly (May 16, 2009)

*Tear Staining*

My dog has white fur and I have been using angel eyes for about 2 and a half weeks I have not noticed that great of a change. How long does it take angel eyes to work? Since my dog is only 17 weeks old - I want to go a more natural route like Angels Delight. Also, if angel eyes does not work it maybe do to a limited shelf life. I have another question I want to grow Kasey's hair long - right now at five months her top looks somewhat unruly - how long does it take before the head strands can lay down and for her ears to get below her chin ?:

Thanks all!

Kelly


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## Renee (Mar 27, 2008)

Chasza said:


> Ana's Mojito,
> 
> Back in Feb, Renee said that her vet thought the Tylan powder was not worth trying, but gave it to her anyway. He must not have known it was an antibiotic (I have met vets who have never heard of it unless they grew up around farms). I use it only when needed for a medical condition that my dogs have that only Tylan powder is effective for (it is used 'off-label' for this purpose). I did want to say that since it is an antibiotic, to be careful and not use it long, long term, and to follow up with probiotics (2 hours after a meal, and for several months following treatment) since it will kill off the good gut flora as well as the bad bugs. It has a horrible taste, which is why some dogs detect it and won't eat it. Noteworthy to mention is that the msds says that you should not touch it with your hands or breathe it in. I pour some out into a small jar, and am careful not to move the powder to the extent it will be 'up in the air' much. Also, I use food grade disposable gloves bought at warehouse club so that I can throw those away afterwards. Apparently, continued skin contace can cause reactions in humans. Just wanted to mention this.
> 
> I don't know if this would help -- but I am wondering if once someone tried the Tylan powder, and it worked, if they then continued on with only probiotics if maybe keeping the good flora renewed in the gut would help to fight off whatever it is causing the staining once the original staining was gone. I don't have any experience -- just a thought about this.


My vet was well aware what Tylan powder is used for. We are in the heart of "farm country". Here in Nebraska, it is used on pigs for gastro-intestinal problems. She had never heard of it being used for eye stains. When she researched it, she found out it was an "old groomer's secret", and she wasn't sure it would work. BECAUSE it's such a low dose antibiotic, she said it wouldn't hurt at all to try it for 6 weeks. Miley would not become immune to antibiotics for having used it. I used a very low dose for 6 weeks, and Miley's stains disappeared. The hair below her eyes will sometimes get discolored, but not stained. She is perfectly white after giving her a bath. I use tear free dog shampoo around her eyes so as not to hurt her. So glad I found this "groomer's secret"....


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

I have used Tylan powder to treat Lincoln's muzzle staining. It is a narrow-spectrum antibiotic which is good as far as being less prone to cause resistance to other antibiotics. After we tried every remedy under the sun (topical, dietary, etc.) for several months with no success, Tylan was the only thing that worked. Lincoln had red yeast and bacteria which was causing bad, dark brown reddish staining on his muzzle and the bottoms of his front paws. I recommend using an antibiotic only as a last resort. 

I asked my vet about it and she said at the extremely low dose he is on, it shouldn't cause any problems. I keep him on a maintenance dose now, 2 times a week, 1/32nd of a teaspoon (or even less). When I stopped completely the first time, his staining returned within 6 mos. I have not looked into the probiotic issue but would love to know if anyone has had success with that.

Scout has never had staining issues. I am guessing there is something about the physiology of the particular dog that makes him or her prone to staining.


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## kelly (May 16, 2009)

Thanks Jane for replying - did you try angel eyes? - at what age can you start Tylan powder and also for the stained fur already there, did you use anything to clean that?

Kelly


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

I've read on the Forum that Angel Eyes (main ingredient is tylan,) shouldn't be used on a dog until their adult teeth are in, because apparently it can cause their teeth to come in stained.


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## iluvhavs (Jul 21, 2008)

Correct about theteeth staining in puppies. That came from my dog's opthamologist. Tylan powder and Angel Eyes are the only things that work for me. My optha doc said never, NEVER use anything caustic like peroxide on the dogs face!!!


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## Ana's Mojito (Sep 24, 2007)

murphymoesmamma said:


> This eye muzzle staining thing seems to be very common. Before I got Murphy I used to think that people who had dogs with tear staining were not caring for them properly. Then along came Murphy and that theory went right out the window! He has terrible eye staining and I just hate what that does to his sweet little face. His eyes always seem as though they are irritated. I am thinking about calling the vet to see if she will prescribe Tylan for him.
> 
> Let us know what your vet says and how it works for you. I went into the Angel Delights website, it's like Angel Eyes I think but without antibiotics. But for the price.... $$$ I want to hear from someone who's tried it if it really works.
> 
> Ana


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## Ana's Mojito (Sep 24, 2007)

Sheri said:


> Tucker was starting pretty bad eye staining as a puppy, and by around a year old I finally tried the Angel Eyes with tylan. (I'm thinking that is the name of the brand, there are two named similarly, but the one I'm talking about is the one with the Tylan in it.) I gave it to him for about 3-4 weeks, until I could see a nice clear space around his eyes, about half-an-inch. I haven't used it since. His muzzle could be whiter, but I'm not obsessive about that, and won't use it just for that. I do give him probiotics, and occasionally, yogurt.
> 
> This picture is of him at about 2 years of age, just a couple of months ago.


Wow, Tucker's eyes look really nice!! Tonight was the first time EVER that Mojito ate something with Angel Eyes in it... I always disguised it with things he loves, but he smelled it and refused it. Tonight it was ground chicken with a little garlic powder... magic. I need to get more Angel Eyes now... I'm thinking I'll need about 4 or 5 bottles for the whole month..?

Lucky you! Good for Tucker. )


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## Ana's Mojito (Sep 24, 2007)

kelly said:


> My dog has white fur and I have been using angel eyes for about 2 and a half weeks I have not noticed that great of a change. How long does it take angel eyes to work? Since my dog is only 17 weeks old - I want to go a more natural route like Angels Delight. Also, if angel eyes does not work it maybe do to a limited shelf life. I have another question I want to grow Kasey's hair long - right now at five months her top looks somewhat unruly - how long does it take before the head strands can lay down and for her ears to get below her chin ?:
> 
> Thanks all!
> 
> Kelly


Hi Kelly,

I think they're all different. With only 2 Havs under my sleeve ;o) my experience has been that Mambo at around 7 or 8 months old already had a full grown coat. I show them so I keep them like that. He's got so much hair, I wish I had that amount!! The hair on the head I'd say laid down at around 6 or 7 months, and for Mojito's ears to be down to his chin when he was at least a year old. Mambo's grew so much faster.

About the Angel Eyes, does he have all his adult teeth in? You're not supposed to give them that until they do.

Please, let us know if the Angels Delight worked for you. I liked that it didn't have antibiotics, but boy is it expensive. Much more than the Angel Eyes.

Ana


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Ana's Mojito said:


> I need to get more Angel Eyes now... I'm thinking I'll need about 4 or 5 bottles for the whole month..?
> 
> )


Goodness, I only had one bottle for Tucker, I think! Surely you wouldn't need 4 or 5 bottles...

I had trouble getting Tucker to eat it too, and mushed it up in a piece of liverwurst. And, after thinking about it more, he may have been on it more like 6 weeks before I stopped...just can't remember. Guess it depends on the size of the bottle, though, too....


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## Ana's Mojito (Sep 24, 2007)

Sheri said:


> Goodness, I only had one bottle for Tucker, I think! Surely you wouldn't need 4 or 5 bottles...
> 
> I had trouble getting Tucker to eat it too, and mushed it up in a piece of liverwurst. And, after thinking about it more, he may have been on it more like 6 weeks before I stopped...just can't remember. Guess it depends on the size of the bottle, though, too....


Thanks for the wonderful news Sheri! For Mojito's weight (15 lbs) 1 tsp daily is needed and I got the smaller bottle, that's probably why... ) phew.... I'll get just 1 of the bigger bottles to start and hopefully that will be it.

thanks!!

Ana


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## kelly (May 16, 2009)

Just to let you know Kasey is a girl... most people just think that's a boy's name!!! Anyway, some holistic pet places in New York feed their puppies Angel eyes and it even says on the bottle that it is okay to give it to them. How much prove is there that it will or may stain teeth. And let me ask you this - do you really see their adult teeth when they get older? I mean is that staining just a cosmetic thing? Why would angel eyes state that you can give it to a puppy ... misleading ... huh. I'll let you all know about angels delight. There is only one distributor in the United States ... I can't believe it!!! I know its expensive - I just want to give it to her as a puppy because of the possible staining issue. 

For the remaining stains under her eyes I read that Chris Christensen white cream cover up worked great until the hair grew out. Have any of you heard of that product or tried any of his products?

Thanks again... you guys are great!

Kelly


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Hi Kelly, I've heard Tylan is related to tetracycline (another antibiotic), which is why people say that is may cause permanent staining on a puppy's emerging teeth. I have not verified that, but if it is true, then I would wait to use it until your dog's adult teeth have emerged.

I have not found anything that will easily take the stains off of the stained facial hair. I'm sure there must be some effective topical treatments, but using them on the face is really difficult. Anything on Lincoln's muzzle, he would lick off. I even tried applying a peroxide mix and covering his muzzle with a sock (with the end cut off so he could breathe)...yeah, kind of desperate. But it just didn't work. As the old stained hair grows out, you can trim off the ends, and then trim off a few of the badly stained ones, one at a time, so you don't cut off a clump of leave any "holes". It can take about 4-6 mos. for the stained hair to grow out completely, so you really have to be patient.


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## kelly (May 16, 2009)

Thanks for replying Jane. I can't wait to post pictures of Kasey so you can put a name with a face!!! Let me ask you this, overall what is the best raw food - has the forum come to any concensus?

Thanks,
Kelly
P.S. Your havanese is beautiful!


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

kelly said:


> Thanks for replying Jane. I can't wait to post pictures of Kasey so you can put a name with a face!!! Let me ask you this, overall what is the best raw food - has the forum come to any concensus?
> 
> Thanks,
> Kelly
> P.S. Your havanese is beautiful!


Thanks, Kelly, and we would love to see photos of Kasey (and you!) - the more the better!

I actually don't feed raw, but if you do a search on "raw", I'm sure you will find a ton of discussion on it. Many forum members feed raw and have done extensive research into it!


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## kelly (May 16, 2009)

Thanks for the reply Jane! I also wrote on the thread Baby Teeth- if you have a chance could you look at that - I'm not sure anyone has been on that thread for a while. 

Kelly


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## Patti McNeil (Apr 20, 2009)

Kelly,
My vet said Angel Eyes is okay for puppies. They only get a very small amount; not enough to stain their adult teeth. That's just what my vet said anyway. Angel Eyes worked great on Toby, and I only gave it to him for a couple of weeks.


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## kelly (May 16, 2009)

Toby is so cute. How old and how many pounds does he/she weight now? You know I have been using angel eyes for three weeks and for the first time this morning Kasey has not been rubbing at her eyes. It just makes me feel better for her. As you may know I live in New York on Long Island, and I just got her from a breeder (large puppy store).... and paid a little over 2000 dollars.... Only to bring her home and have to work on tear stains (and the money with that!!!) They just told me that the gunk on the corner of her eyes was just like "sleep ****" like humans get. I had white and cream persians before and never had this problem. Kasey, although is beginning to look better - I am using parsley in her food, cornstarch around her eyes and distilled water. 

The angel eyes actually states use the product for three months and then taper off using it four times a week. What did you do? 

Also, when do they get all their adult teeth in? Kasey has some spaces between her top and bottom baby teeth. Is that good like humans, so that she has room for her adult teeth to growth in without them being crooked (I think I spelled that wrong). Plus, could the dogs have less than six teeth - like 4-6 on their top and bottom - I think I read that somewhere in the forums.

Thanks, You guys are great!!!

Kelly :angel:


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## ItsMare (May 3, 2008)

Angel Eyes Angel Eyes Angel Eyes! It works, it just takes time to work. Give it 6 weeks and you will swear you never had this issue. I have seen it work on havs time and again.


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## Patti McNeil (Apr 20, 2009)

Toby is 17 weeks and he weighs 6.7 lbs. He also has spaces between his teeth, so I wouldn't worry about that. My vet said not to worry about the adult teeth coming in stained because of the small amount of Angel Eyes I give him. And I agree with your reasoning about what's worse: unsightly tear stains or yellow teeth? I'm with you that the tear stains would bother me more. But again, I don't think the stained teeth will be an issue if you just give Kasey a small amount. 

I also use Espree Bright White shampoo, and it works well on his muzzle.


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## kelly (May 16, 2009)

Hey Patti,

Even more nice to meet you.... our dogs are about the same age!! Kasey at 16 weeks was about 5.7 pounds. She was born on 3/3, she is about 18 weeks... I am giving her the the dosage for angel eyes on the bottle for 5-7 pounds. THe person before this post said that in six weeks we would think that we never had this problem ... that would be great! You heard I am going to get angels delight for long term use - that was what I thought would be good... what do you think? I am trying to train Kasey for both potty inside and out. I just bought a puphead (to use on our boat and vacations) she seems to be using it pretty well. She does have car sickness - so hopefully we can make her understand that the car is not a bad place.

They can grow old together - and I LOVE your Mother Theresa saying!

Kelly:angel:


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## Patti McNeil (Apr 20, 2009)

Kelly,
I'm going to PM you.......


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## Chasza (Dec 10, 2008)

Quote:
When you say you used the Tylan not for long, how many days is that? I've read some people use it for 2 weeks? I haven't tried Tylan. In which form do you get the probiotics? I used to find natural yogurt with probiotics, I can't find it anymore. 
... I used to feed Mojito natural yogurt everyday, (a tsp) to keep his flora in good shape, but it started making his stools runny.... That's why I'm very interested in learning of other forms of probiotics to feed him. End Quote

I used Tylan for a different purpose, so I don't have any personal experience on how long it takes before the new growth will not be stained. I would totally guess at 2-3 weeks...maybe? I use human grade probiotics -- for example the one I like for myself is NOW GR8-Dophilus. So, for the doggies, I pull the capsule apart, and sprinkle a small amount on the food and put the capsule back in the fridge. I always start with a very small amount and build up for larger dogs. Too many probiotics in a system that is not used to it can cause gas.

*Measuring Spoons:*

BTW, someone said they had an 1/8 tsp and just guessed at what 1/32 amount would be. I bought a tiny set of measuring spoonsand use them for this purpose. A dash is 1/8, a pinch is 1/16, a smidgen is 1/32, and a nip is 1/64 (I hope I got all those right). Anyway, these spoons only cost a few dollars and is well worth having around the kitchen.


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