# Breeders, buyers



## JASHavanese

I'm not quite sure what to say in this post, so I'm going to talk to you from my heart and hopefully the pieces of what I'm trying to say will fall together.
I think we breeders are failing the public and that makes me sad. If we were helping you, you'd know what to ask breeders about their puppies and you'd be able to make informed decisions that will affect your life for the next very many years, we hope.
Puppies are so very easy to fall in love with whether in person or in pictures but do we let our heart rule us or do we take a step back and take our hearts out of it for the moment? 
What do you ask a breeder? Here are some of the things I can think of off the top of my head.
What health testing has been done on the parents? 
What are the names of the sire and dam so that I can go to offa.org and look up the results myself?
How are the puppies raised?
Are there any known health issues in your dogs?
Do you stand behind your dogs and if so, what is your policy?
If there is a genetic problem with the puppy, what do you do?
If for some reason I can't keep the dog, what do you do?

And what should you expect from a breeder? Here are my requirements:
Soaped pictures of the sire and dam
Soaped pictures of the puppy
A good and honest relationship
One who is willing to help you at any hour of the day
One who wants to see that puppy as it grows whether in person or pictures
The websites to the sire and dam's offa.org pages.
There are times health tests aren't posted yet so expect the breeder to show you the paperwork and feel free to ask why it isn't in the database yet.
I'm in too much pain to keep typing so other breeders on the list please feel free to jump in with what you think we can do to better educate.


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## lfung5

I disagree with you Jan. I think the good breeders like yourself are doing a great job at getting the information out there to puppy buyers and making them aware of problems etc. I think the breed is getting so popular that bad unethical breeders are coming out of the wood work and this confuses puppy buyers. They come up with every excuse why they don't health test, or have pictures, and so on. Breeders like you deserve a medal! Keep up the good work!


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## Sissygirl

Jan,

thank you for giving examples of questions to ask. I just got lucky with Sissy because I had researched the breed but did not ask a lot of those questions.

My breeder was really good - she guarantees Sissy's health for 3 years - which I thought was really good. She took the time to talk to me about CERF testing. (she didn't talk to me about CD) which I have not seen any problems at this time.

So maybe by you listing these questions - even if one person reads this
and asks the right questions - they will have very good results.

I was a very uneducated buyer - really all I knew to ask was 
Is she healthy? Any problems with parents? History of breed illnesses?

Keep up the good work - Havanese fur babies need breeders like you!


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## ama0722

Jan,
I think it is a great idea to list these sort of things on our forum and educate anyone thinking of getting a havanese right off the get go! Unfortunately, I think there may be people who don't listen to a great breeder your like yourself about health testing and researching, they are just going to get what they think is the "best deal" or even go to a pet store to buy the cute puppy. 

I went to a pet store near my house thinking it was just an upscale dog boutique- they did have some adorable outfits but then I quickly realized they sold dogs. There weren't any havanese there but in my area pocket dogs are popular- the smaller the more money. They had a maltese saying "guaranteed to be under 5lbs" for $3,000! Let's just say they are doing very well at that store. It is so sad I just had to get out of there. Then as Leslie did the other day, you do a search and realize how many people got sick puppies, etc. It is crazy that people just go for instant gratification and if they just googled the name of the pet store where they are likely buying their best friend for the next 15 years, they would realize how horrible this place is! I think the best thing we can do for friends and family is spread the word on how important research is especially for your best friend's sake!

Amanda


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## Cheryl

I agree with Linda. I find the breeders on this site ( and others) go beyond my expectations. I expect a breeder to do all that he can to produce a healthy puppy. I hope a breeder can try to match a puppies temperament to my needs. I would like a breeder to be able to answer questions within a day or 2, but I do not expect a 24 hour service. 

If things go wrong, I would hope that my breeder would handle it on a case by case situation--depending upon what was wrong and what it would take to fix it. 

Jan, I wonder why you are in so much pain. I know that you do all of above and more for your puppies. Who let you down?


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## JASHavanese

lfung5 said:


> I disagree with you Jan. I think the good breeders like yourself are doing a great job at getting the information out there to puppy buyers and making them aware of problems etc. I think the breed is getting so popular that bad unethical breeders are coming out of the wood work and this confuses puppy buyers. They come up with every excuse why they don't health test, or have pictures, and so on. Breeders like you deserve a medal! Keep up the good work!


I wish I could agree with you. We, no, change that to me since I can only speak for myself, am failing at letting people know what to ask for. I'm trying to make up for that with this post.


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## Lina

Jan, I'm not sure what exactly happened for you to say that, but you seem like an ethical breeder to me and I would be more than happy to have one of your puppies. I would buy one from you in full confidence, with those questions that you listed ready to get answered and I'm sure you'd have all the answers.


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## Sissygirl

Jan, I have looked at your website before and I have always thought that the website is very informative.

Don't be so hard on yourself. I know when you have the love for this breed and you see others who are careless it makes you very sad.

Just keep being informative and hopefully the good will prevail.


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## JASHavanese

Cheryl said:


> I agree with Linda. I find the breeders on this site ( and others) go beyond my expectations. I expect a breeder to do all that he can to produce a healthy puppy. I hope a breeder can try to match a puppies temperament to my needs. I would like a breeder to be able to answer questions within a day or 2, but I do not expect a 24 hour service.
> 
> If things go wrong, I would hope that my breeder would handle it on a case by case situation--depending upon what was wrong and what it would take to fix it.
> 
> Jan, I wonder why you are in so much pain. I know that you do all of above and more for your puppies. Who let you down?


I let me down Cheryl and that bothers me. I'm going to skip the details because they aren't important. If I was doing my job I would have made this post a lot sooner than I did.
Other than that, my back is screaming at me...but that's ok, I know how to scream back at it


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## irnfit

Jan, thank for for speaking from your heart. I think everyone on the forum thanks you for that, and for the info you have put out there. The problem is that most people go to "look" for a puppy and end up at a pet store. People want instant gratification. They don't want to wait months and months for a pup. They don't care who the breeder is, or haven't been *educated* enough to care.

So, that is what is needed - more education...about good breeders, staying away from pet stores, etc.

Thank goodness there are good breeders out there, like you.


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## JASHavanese

Thanks for the kind words. Nothing has happened to me except that I saw that I failed in getting out information people need. How about if we just send a blanket prayer or send good wishes out to the universe to those who haven't asked the questions and don't have answers? 
Sorry, I have to get out of this chair. My back can't take sitting here.
Hugs to you and your furkids.


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## susaneckert

Jan you are awsome and rememeber this better late to post than not to post at all and you have done it so put your Great Big Heart to the side now its all good I know it is with all my heart :biggrin1: <<< SEEEEE


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## dschles

Jan--

Don't be so hard on yourself. I am sure you don't remember, but about a year ago, I started looking for a Havanese breeder. I knew very little about Havanese and had never even heard of Havanese before we started looking for a small dogs after enduring years of my daughter begging for a puppy. I certainly had never heard of -- or chanced upon -- this forum. The one thing I knew was I wanted a reputable, quality breeder. Somehow, I came upon your site and asked you for a referral in our area (your site was informative and I sensed you could be trusted). You referred me to a breeder in our area, who referred me to another breeder in the area. I also got the breeder list from the HCA, and the breeder you referred me to was on that list. I asked my breeder most of the "right questions", but I also felt a level of confidence because of the referral from you and the other breeder.

So, thanks for your guidance!

--Diane


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## JASHavanese

dschles said:


> Jan--
> 
> Don't be so hard on yourself. I am sure you don't remember, but about a year ago, I started looking for a Havanese breeder. I knew very little about Havanese and had never even heard of Havanese before we started looking for a small dogs after enduring years of my daughter begging for a puppy. I certainly had never heard of -- or chanced upon -- this forum. The one thing I knew was I wanted a reputable, quality breeder. Somehow, I came upon your site and asked you for a referral in our area (your site was informative and I sensed you could be trusted). You referred me to a breeder in our area, who referred me to another breeder in the area. I also got the breeder list from the HCA, and the breeder you referred me to was on that list. I asked my breeder most of the "right questions", but I also felt a level of confidence because of the referral from you and the other breeder.
> 
> So, thanks for your guidance!
> 
> --Diane


((((((((((((((((((((Diane)))))))))))))))))))) You just made my day!!!!! :hug:


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## Lynn

*THANK YOU JAN*

Thank you for your "speaking from your heart" please continue to do so. As you all know I have been puppy shopping this past year, and I can tell you *not* all breeder want to hear these questions, nor will they address them.

I really appreciate the breeders on the forum that keep us educated.

THANK YOU,


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## lfung5

Jan, 
Starting this thread says a lot about your practices and shows you care. You have taken the step in doing your best to inform future puppy buyers. The information is out there, it's taking the time to do the homework before buying a pup. 
If only ALL breeders were as caring and ethical as you. I am so sorry you are hurting.


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## susaneckert

:biggrin1: Jan you are only one person and you give out very good information you have done your job well.Dont come down on your self no reason to every thing you said came from the heart that means more to people than what you realize its awsome!!!!What a great friend breeder commarade Its posted now and that is all that matters You are one of the rare breeders that care this much big hugs to you


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## KristinFusco

Jan, this was a wonderful post! You do an amazing job educating people, and you shouldn't feel any type of despair over it; sometimes people can have all of the information in the world in front of them and they will still do what they want.

This story hits really close to home. Two months ago, my sister and brother-in-law decided they wanted a second dog (they already had a puggle, sigh, who pees everywhere in their beautiful home when excited). When they asked my advice (since they knew I researched for a year before getting Lito), I sat down with them both and BEGGED them to look at puppies from health tested breeders. My SIL really wanted a Bichon Frisee, so I discussed with them all of the health testing issues I found online about the breed, and I offered to write to the parent club and get a breeder referral, and even to go with them to pick up the pup (or to pick it up for them if it was too far a drive for them to make with the kids). 

THe next week, SIL calls me all excited to tell me they got a BASSET HOUND. FROM A PET STORE. PAID 1000$. I swear, I got off the phone and started crying because I was so upset. Here I had just spent two weeks trying to help them find the very best breed for their family and they went and did this on a whim, they knew NOTHING about the breed, its health or how big the dog would get, and they know how I feel about pet store puppies.

So they take him to the vet, and find out he has the following: Umbilical hernia, multiple types of parasites, and DOUBLE LUNG PNEUMONIA. The vet told them the dog was a few days away from dying. THey spent over 1000$ treating all of these problems (which combined with the purchase price of Winston puts them right at the price of a well-bred, health tested Bichon :frusty: ). 

Now, because of its poor early socialization at the pet store, the dog pees and poops EVERYWHERE in the house (and this will be a 40-80 lb dog, not a little mess!). He has to go to training classes 3 days a week because he is so poorly behaved, and the trainers have told S- and BIL that they think that the dog has "developmental issues" and is very difficult to train. The trainers also think he might have a back issue (I think they said potentially herniated disk because of the way he moves, but I am not sure).

Sorry for this rant, it has been on my mind a lot. Sometimes, even the most well-intentioned people make a mistake with their choices. That doesn't mean WE failed, we just have to keep spreading the word so that at least people have the correct information. 

I wonder, is there a place on this site where we could post this "mantra" ie: if you are looking for a Havanese puppy, here are the things you should look for in a breeder" and maybe have a link to it that non-site-registered people can follow? It might make a difference if someone is surfing the web and sees it, and then thinks twice before buying a poorly bred puppy.

~Kristin


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## Lina

Kristin, I am so sorry about all that your brother and his wife have gone through and I have actually heard of this happening more often than not. Why people still buy puppies at pet stores is beyond me. It must be incredibly frustrating for you since you did your best to help them!

I know that I would think it would be great for a sticky post to be used to let people know what they should ask a breeder when looking for a puppy! It's important for that information to be freely available to others. As much as I hate to say this, though, I've found that for some people, things like this must be learned not taught. That does not mean that others shouldn't put out as much information out there as they possibly can, but it does mean that for some people no matter how much you beat them upside the head with information, they will still go out and do something completely stupid. It's so frustrating! :brick:


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## Leslie

So, how blessed do you think I feel to have Jan as MY breeder??? :whoo: :clap2: :bounce: :cheer2:


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## Thumper

Kristin, 

That's just an awful story  And sadly....it is WAY too common! I know SOOO many people that bought dogs on a "whim", because they think they are "cute" OR they are mixed with a lab, so think it is will have a great temperment, though, the other dog the lab is mixed with has the predominant gene and traits/temperments. OR people that get BIG dogs and do not exercise them like they need to be.

I can't believe the dog they got has SO many health problems already! 

I think I was lucky that Gucci's parents were cerf'd, I fell in love w/ her the day she was born and that was that. I had such a hard time finding a Havanese here in Virginia at that time! The waiting list were several months long and a few of the popular breeders here in my state would NOT return my phone calls and emails, I was quite frustrated...even though one local breeder was really trying to help me.

I took soaped up pictures of Gucci's legs last weekend and I'm really pleased with them! They are straighter than some Havanese (and Silks! LOL) that are currently breeding, so again......a stroke of luck for me. I was SO anxious to get a puppy, I didn't screen as well as I should have. When I got the info on her parents cerf'ing and the hearing tests, I was like "what is this???!!" lol.

Live and learn.

Kara


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## mckennasedona

Jan,
Thank you for your heartfelt post. I simply lucked out with my breeder. Like many other people, my husband and I fell in love with a photo of a puppy on a calendar. We bought the calender only to find out what kind of dog it was. Havenese. What's a Havanese? I went online and happened upon the HCA site and I read every word on every page. I don't think the average buyer knows about breed clubs. I know I didn't. Did I ask all the right questions of my breeder? Probably not, but she provided all the information anyway. I could just as easily have come across someone at the other end of the spectrum. 
You can only do so much. Part of the problem is that when people decide they want a puppy they want one NOW not 6 months from now. Until that mindset can be changed there will always be a market for unethical breeders.

Susan


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## KristinFusco

Hi Lina!

Thanks for the commisseration, I always feel better talking to this group! It is actually DH's brother and his wife that I was talking about. I have 2 younger sisters, and I am the alpha [email protected]#$% in my family, and when I speak, they LISTEN!!! ound: Well some of the time anyway  They know how dog-crazy I am and that I would have to give them a :whip: if they bought a puppy mill dog. But I understand your point, it is hard to convince people that spending more money up front is better than spending a lot more over the years paying for health problems that may arise! One can only hope that people will do some research beforehand and not walk into a petstore and walk out with a breed they know nothing about! And BIL and SIL are two educated people who use the internet all the time to look up things about dogs. What can you do?

~Kristin


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## KristinFusco

Hi Kara!

You are right, it is so hard to convince people to "sit on" their puppy urge for awhile when they want one ASAP! And it is GREAT that Gucci has such straight legs and her parents were CERFd, she is such a beautiful girl :biggrin1: I am sure Lito would be in love if he met her. The one time I brought Lito to a big dog show, he met two female Havs on the sidelines and was instantly smitten with one of them, he kept sidling up and giving her the "google eyes" LOL!

~Kristin


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## Leslie

mckennasedona said:


> Jan,
> Thank you for your heartfelt post. I simply lucked out with my breeder. Like many other people, my husband and I fell in love with a photo of a puppy on a calendar. We bought the calender only to find out what kind of dog it was. Havenese. What's a Havanese? I went online and happened upon the HCA site and I read every word on every page. I don't think the average buyer knows about breed clubs. I know I didn't. Did I ask all the right questions of my breeder? Probably not, but she provided all the information anyway. I could just as easily have come across someone at the other end of the spectrum.
> You can only do so much. *Part of the problem is that when people decide they want a puppy they want one NOW not 6 months from now. Until that mindset can be changed there will always be a market for unethical breeders.*
> 
> Susan


Susan~ You're absolutely correct. My "granddogger", a cute little Pekingnese, came from a pet store, because my DIL didn't want to wait. They've "lucked out", so far at a yr. and a half old, there have been no health issues at all.


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## Paige

Jan, anyone would be lucky to own one of your babies. But it is true that not all breeders are like you. You are doing all you can by educating everyone who comes to the forum, and even if you don't hear it personally from them, your information will help future puppy owners make a better decision. I really think that is all that you can do.

Sometimes when buying a puppy things do go wrong, and I think that puppy buyers need to have that in the back of their mind. Preston has CD, and I wouldn't trade him for the world. He is the sweetest guy and puts a smile on my face and everyone in my household on a daily basis. There may be medical bills in the future and he will always have to be on supplements, but I am so glad that he is mind. I feel privileged to be his Mom.

I wanted everyone to know that Jan was the only breeder, who emailed me about Preston's CD, with information on what were some things I could do to help him. I think that speak volumes about what type of breeder you are Jan.


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## Thumper

Jan is the best!  It's too bad that there isn't some regulations on breeding dogs of ANY breed. It just blows me away that anyone can breed any dog w/o having to disclose their medical conditions, etc.

I ended up having to wait about 3 months for Gucci, which felt like FOREVER, lemme tell ya! lol

Kara


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## mckennasedona

Kara, that's what they call SWEET ANTICIPATION.


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## Paige

You know, when I was getting my boys. I got them about 8 months apart. I kept having people tell me why don't you just get a female and breed, that way you won't be spending the money but making money. 

It didn't matter what I said, in their eyes I was stupid for paying so much money for these dogs when I could just get a female and breed them. 

Unfortunately, this is the mindset of some people, and you can't change it.

I have other people that couldn't believe that I had my boys fixed. They couldn't imagine why someone would spend that kind of money just to have as pets. They don't understand they are not pets but my babies.:frusty: :frusty: 

I just smile now and say yes they are all three mind and no I don't breed.


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## KristinFusco

Paige you are so right,

People always say to me, when are you getting a female to breed Carlito with? And when I say he's fixed (and if they ask how much Havs cost), I get the "crazy-dog-lady" stare; non-dog people just don't always understand that these are our babies, not our money-makers!


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## marjrc

Kristin wrote: " wonder, is there a place on this site where we could post this "mantra" ie: if you are looking for a Havanese puppy, here are the things you should look for in a breeder" and maybe have a link to it that non-site-registered people can follow? It might make a difference if someone is surfing the web and sees it, and then thinks twice before buying a poorly bred puppy."

*** There is a forum here called 'Breeders' where this message is for others to see. This thread would be great if it got moved over there for new members to find easily. 

I get soooooo angry when I hear this type of story, Kirstin. I can imagine how upset you must be over this. That poor dog, "saved" from the pet store, but now what? He's not likely a good match for your sis' family, not healthy right from the start, is huge (compared to the Frise she wanted!) and has behavioral issues. YIKES !! How many would like to place bets on how long before this pup is at the shelter because "it just isn't working out?" ??

I'm sorry. Maybe your sil and bil are the right family for this b.hound, and hopefully they can adapt and turn the pup around to being wonderful member of their family. We can hope........ 

Jan, I worry too and I'm not even a breeder! I understand the frustration and anxiety about knowing people who just dont' have the right info, know the questions to ask, and do their homework. We MUST think with our heads - just chatting about this with a friend a few minutes ago! - and make a smart decision.

Don't be hard on yourself, dear Jan. You and so many other amazing breeders here and elsewhere do the best you can and you can't ask for more than that.


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## CinnCinn

Thank you Jan! We need more breeders like you!


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## Suuske747

Reece : that sounds very familiar....ppl ask me too why I won't breed, easy money, ppl are sooo ignorant...and just ...I don't know it just hurts....It doesn't matter how hard you try to explain what it's like to be a good and conscientious breeder, and that you make far from any more when you are a really good breeder...because any money you make you have either already spent on health testing, research etc....or are going to spent on it.....

Kristin, your story sounds very familiar too, my parents in law wanted a dog....(we didn't have Sierra yet) and asked if I could come along with them to see how the puppy is, if it is socialized and ok....they had an adress for boomers, Maltese-Shi-Tzu mix, they were socalled specialising in breeding these as they have a wonderful temperament etc....
I went with them..it was horrible....in was in a garage in the back, he was smoking while holding the puppies, he trained police-german-sheperds, and had many of them in the second part of the garage....we couldn't see the mom as he didn't want any contamination....******* and said he was working with another breeder and he had the other parent...in that second part of the garage you could hear all the dogs bark....I just wanted to run, run fast....he had 3 pups there, 2 were 6 wks old, without a mother, sitting in a elevated chest sitting in paperstrips.......
My parents-in-law were sold....they saw the pup and were simply sold.....
They didn't even listen to me, the pup was lovely in character, but I just wanted to run......
I talked and talked, but they simply wanted the pup, and then there's just so much you can do......it broke my heart.....
Except for a huge overbite in the underjaw, she seems healthy....but she is a very nervous dog, and her looks are far from pretty if you ask me.....I can't help it.....but then again, she is Sierra's best friend, they play for hours.....I'll post some pictures...
They still don't think there's anything wrong about what they did....







Here they are, a furry tornado.....and I am so glad Sierra has a furry friend...but I still don't agree with what they've done.....she could have had another furry friend without supporting a backyardbreeder....
Here's a close up, you see the underbite, it's huge! My finger fits in it! And the poor pigmentation....


And this is actually to show, Jan, you can only do so much, if ppl don't want to listen, you can do everything in you power to educate them, but some ppl just don't want to be educated.....and what I have read about you and from you, you are just like my breeder, and my breeder's friends breeders, you are extremely dedicated, conscientious and a loving breeder, don't be too harsh on yourself....

I do think though that it would be good to have a sticky thread with the content of your post, without comments, just pure information, things ppl should be aware of when buying a puppy.....


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## Lynn

havashadow said:


> So, how blessed do you think I feel to have Jan as MY breeder??? :whoo: :clap2: :bounce: :cheer2:


Leslie,
You are very blessed, you desire it!!! We would not want it any other way for you!


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## Leslie

Paige and Suzanne~ This is exactly the question my DH is being asked by folks at work as soon as they find out we're getting a male and female..."You're going to breed them, aren't you?" He says the looks he gets when he tells them, "Absolutely not! They'll be fixed as soon as they are old enough." are priceless. They just don't understand it's so much more than "just having puppies". For so many, if not most people, it's about making an "easy" buck. Obviously they've never cared for puppies ound:

Most people don't care to know or even think about health testing, because they have the mentality of, "It won't happen to me". If I hadn't done my "homework" before getting Shadow and finding a breeder who stands behind her dogs, I be out over $9000, between Shadow's cost and vet bills, _and_ I'd have no dog... Need I tell you how thankful I am to have researched and found a good reputable breeder???


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## KristinFusco

It's so true, some people don't understand all of the hard work and sacrifice that goes into dogbreeding. They think "Oh, I can put 2 dogs together and get 2000$ profit per puppy!" when really it is more like you will lucky to break even between the health testing, vet visits, showing the parents in conformation to evaluate your breeding stock (etc). I used to think that I would love to be a Hav breeder but I don't think that I could ever exhibit the kind of patience, love and sacrifice that the breeders on this forum have for their furbabies! Thank goodness for them!

~Kristin


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## Laurief

This thread makes me a little sad, that you feel bad about yourself Jan! You are the one helping to educate all the new Hav owners, to know what to ask, and what to look for. You should actually be proud of yourself!!
I know that when I got my guys, I knew NOTHING about what to ask or look for. I just knew I loved the look of the dogs, the nonshed hypoallergenic aspect and simply "wanted a dog" I did not have anyone to help me with decisions and tell me what to ask, so I asked nothing!! I remember my breeder saying to me, Well Toby and Belle have been CERFED " and I remember saying to myself "what the heck does that mean, oh well, it doesnt matter to me" I did do a little research online & asked about the eyes, which she indicated she had done(obviously) and that her dogs were in some study to work on keeping the breed healthy. She has kept me up to date on any health issues I should know about. 
I knew NOTHING!! Asked NOTHING!! Was someone from up above looking down on me!!!! I got three great dogs, fairly healthy (except for Lexi's cherry eye) a wonderful breeder who did what she was supposed to do - although I did not know it at the time. I count my luckly stars that I ended up on that end when I just as easily could have been on the other end of a bad breeder. Keep up your good work!
And remember - your good deed of the year for 2007 is taking care of our Leslie!!
Laurie


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## Laurief

My breeder told me "everything" I ever needed to know about her this year when she was expecting a litter, and we had been emailing back and forth, and she emailed me in the morning, she had been up all night with the momma, who delivered a singlet who was very small, and she spend the whole night trying to coax this baby and keep it alive but sadly it did not make it. Phyllis was so upset you could tell that it was devastating to her. About a week later she said that it was very telling to her (about herself) that she never once thought about the $ that the pup would have brought in, just that she loved it already & was heartbroken that it didnt make it. Thats the kind of breeder I think you are too Jan!!


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## Thumper

Exactly!

After all the health testing and vet bills, there isn't much of a profit for a reputable breeder. The good ones breed out of a "labor of love" and to "better the breed", not to turn around a quick buck!

I've also been asked if I was going to breed Gucci. Several times!!! If I ever did decide to jump in the vipor pit going on right now in the Hav-breeder world, I certainly would view it as more of a passion for the breed and not a way to keep the lights on! lol, A think the reasons why breeders choose to start breeding are what drives them to make GOOD or BAD decisions.

Oh, and then you add the $$ that you spend on showing the dogs, and that cuts profit even more. I think there are breeders that breed because they love to, and don't really run it so much as a business, and others that are completely motivated by profit.

I'm glad Sierra has a playmate, but gosh...the depiction of the breeder you described would scare me away too!  I'm surprised that people can be blinded to what is right in front of them and just SEE what they WANT to see.

Kara


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## MaddiesMom

I am *so* glad Jan started this thread. I just wish everyone who wants to purchase a Havanese (or any other breed) would read this. It could save such heartbreak. Yes, you could luck out with a backyard breeder. But the odds aren't in your favor. I would rather wait for a year than take a puppy that hasn't come from complete health tested parents. Its amazing how many people think they should breed their dog because its cute or that they'd love to have puppies around, or think its easy money. When I bought Maddie, she had been raised for show, had been in the ring, but eventually developed a slight underbite instead of the preferred scissor bite. I can't even tell that her bite isn't perfect. But Kimberly, being the kind of breeder she is, sold her as a pet and required neutering since she wasn't the perfect specimen. Maddie has the most wonderful temperament, is gorgeous, smart, and runs like the wind. But even if she wasn't fixed or my contract didn't require neutering, I would *never* consider breeding her. Breeding is a *HUGE* responsibility. Responsible breeders spend months researching the perfect stud, spend a ton of money health testing and making sure their breeding stock is ideal, and put in alot of effort in socializing their puppies. Not many of us inexperienced owners could do a decent job. That's why I'm so thrilled there are responsible, experienced breeders on this Forum. They can teach the rest of us how to increase the odds of finding a healthy, happy, well-socialized puppy. I want to give a BIG Thank you to you all!


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## Leeann

Wow reading all these stories sound so famillar, it seems like we have all been down the same road.

Jan I don't think there is anything else I can say that has not already been said, you are a great breeder.

Maybe we as pet owners can come up with some idea's for Jan and other good breeders that helped us find our fur kids. I know when I was first looking I was easily lured in by cute puppy pictures and remember not liking being grilled right away by some breeders (found out later they are great breeders) but it pushed me away kind of made me feel like I was not good enough.
How about some type of e-mail you can send to people whom are looking even if you do not have a pup for them at the time. I know when I was first looking at web sites I was too busy oohing & awwwing at the pictures I never really read anything. Maybe by sending an e-mail they will read it and pay more attention without the distractions of cute puppies. The e-mail can be a list of what they should be asking breeders, you can also provide a list of breeders you would recomend to help them. I think websites are great but when shopping on line we have a tendency not to read everything.

Anyone else have any idea's?


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## Kathy

JASHavanese said:


> I wish I could agree with you. We, no, change that to me since I can only speak for myself, am failing at letting people know what to ask for. I'm trying to make up for that with this post.


Jan,
Since I first got into this breed, I have educated many puppy buyers. I respond to every email I get and give questions to ask other breeders and information about the breed. I have on my web site, a page about finding a good breeder with questions to ask. All the local clubs educate, as does the HCA and the AKC. Advertising helps, but there are a lot of people that just don't do their homework, make a decision based on lust, or looking for the best price, or for someone who has a puppy available NOW and all the education in the world just goes right out the window. We can only try, which I think you and many other's are doing.


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## Leeann

Kudos Kathy. I think the second breeder I called had a pup available and wanted me to come that night to look at him. I am not an impulse buyer and was still trying to figure out if this is what I really wanted so I never went. Think about how many people would have jumped at not having to wait and would have ran to go get him.


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## JASHavanese

Kathy said:


> Jan,
> Since I first got into this breed, I have educated many puppy buyers. I respond to every email I get and give questions to ask other breeders and information about the breed. I have on my web site, a page about finding a good breeder with questions to ask. All the local clubs educate, as does the HCA and the AKC. Advertising helps, but there are a lot of people that just don't do their homework, make a decision based on lust, or looking for the best price, or for someone who has a puppy available NOW and all the education in the world just goes right out the window. We can only try, which I think you and many other's are doing.


:whoo: :hug: You go girl!!!!!!! You rock!


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## JASHavanese

lbkar said:


> Maybe we as pet owners can come up with some idea's for Jan and other good breeders that helped us find our fur kids.
> 
> Anyone else have any idea's?


I'd love to hear pet owners opinions. You guys are the experts in what you've run into and would like to know that I might have overlooked.


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## Sissygirl

Jan,

It's just so sad that we live in a world of instant gratification. Most people
when they decide they want something just go get it - first available.

My daughter decided she wanted beagles - within a week - your right - she had beagles. 

Since then, even though she loves her beagles, and been involved with the beagle world she realizes that she could have been more diligent with checking out breeders.

It's just wonderful that you have a website that is so informative. Most people will start with the web and hopefully will run across your website.


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## dboudreau

Suggestion, What if there was a Forum Section Titled

*"Looking for a Puppy - Read This First" *

Inside would be threads like this one plus information on what questions to ask a breeder. Recommended heath testing for the Sire & Dam. Maybe links to "OFA" & "CERF" Websites. Also links to HCA and HFC. We could "try" to keep all discussion on topic.

Jan, I think you and the other breeders on this forum are doing a great job in educating puppy buyers and owners. :yo: hats off to you, you're all :first:

Some day I hope to have the good fortune to bring a wonderful litter of Havanese babies into this world. For now I'm still reading and learning from you all. Thankyou.


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## JASHavanese

dboudreau said:


> Suggestion, What if there was a Forum Section Titled
> 
> *"Looking for a Puppy - Read This First" *
> 
> Inside would be threads like this one plus information on what questions to ask a breeder. Recommended heath testing for the Sire & Dam. Maybe links to "OFA" & "CERF" Websites. Also links to HCA and HFC. We could "try" to keep all discussion on topic.
> 
> Jan, I think you and the other breeders on this forum are doing a great job in educating puppy buyers and owners. :yo: hats off to you, you're all :first:
> 
> Some day I hope to have the good fortune to bring a wonderful litter of Havanese babies into this world. For now I'm still reading and learning from you all. Thankyou.


Anything that will educate is great in my opinion.
Debbie, the day we stop learning is a sad one. Good for you learning all you can!!


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## Leeann

dboudreau said:


> Suggestion, What if there was a Forum Section Titled
> 
> *"Looking for a Puppy - Read This First" *
> 
> Inside would be threads like this one plus information on what questions to ask a breeder. Recommended heath testing for the Sire & Dam. Maybe links to "OFA" & "CERF" Websites. Also links to HCA and HFC. We could "try" to keep all discussion on topic.
> 
> Jan, I think you and the other breeders on this forum are doing a great job in educating puppy buyers and owners. :yo: hats off to you, you're all :first:
> 
> Some day I hope to have the good fortune to bring a wonderful litter of Havanese babies into this world. For now I'm still reading and learning from you all. Thankyou.


I like this idea, we do have links to the right but maybe something more noticable the would lure people into looking at it.


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## good buddy

Jan,

I think you're doing a wonderful job in educating prospective buyers. I was one of those "prospective buyers" at one time and you e-mailed back and forth with me several times answering my questions and giving me great advice. You even sent me pictures of your dog soaped up to show me just what to look for! You sent me a diagram to explain how to look for a dog with 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 proportions. You did this even when you were sick with the flu. I STILL HAVE your e-mails! ** I also have baby pics of your Christmas Eve litter. Geez, I just put two and two together...that picture of Power~~that's baby Austin isn't it??!

When I was totally new to the breed, I joined the big Yahoo group and started listening in and asking questions. I got plenty of help and information from you, from Glo Dittman, Barbara from CharBar, Kimberly from Havtahava, Kathy Patrick, and Claudie Parrish. Many breeders out there are taking time with the newbies to explain about the breed and how to buy a dog! Many of you also have information on your websites to help a new buyer know what to ask and what to look for. I used information on what questions to ask a breeder from information I gathered on-line. You can only help those that want help. 

The truth is that some people don't want help. They don't want to think about genetics, vet bills, or bad breeders. They don't want to believe others will try and cheat them. They want puppy kisses! It's that quick fix, buy now, I love it! thing that just seems like it should be fun and easy! Most buyers aren't being realistic about the responsibility of pet ownership. They'd never once consider adopting a child in the same careless fashion they would adopt a pet. 

I don't know what happened recently to bring you down, but I do want you to know...you sure helped me! :kiss:


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## Havtahava

Jan, I hear what you are saying, but sometimes it all just goes in one ear and out the other. I met a wonderful woman who called me about a puppy, but after talking to her, I told her that this really may not be the right breed for her (and I won't go into why here), but we talked at length and she really wanted to get on my waiting list. I told her I wouldn't have puppies available until next year, but would gladly assist her in matching her with a good breeder. I emailed her a week later, like I always do, and got an email that bought from a well-known puppy mill, where no health testing is done. I hope the best for her and that pup, but I admit that I cringed when I read the email. All that time on the phone and I don't think it made a bit of difference.

My web site doesn't have a whole lot of pages on it, but I have a "Buyer Beware" page at the top of my links.

Hopefully, we can make a difference one family at time, but you can only do so much.


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## Thumper

good buddy said:


> Jan,
> 
> I think you're doing a wonderful job in educating prospective buyers. I was one of those "prospective buyers" at one time and you e-mailed back and forth with me several times answering my questions and giving me great advice. You even sent me pictures of your dog soaped up to show me just what to look for! You sent me a diagram to explain how to look for a dog with 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 proportions. You did this even when you were sick with the flu. I STILL HAVE your e-mails! ** I also have baby pics of your Christmas Eve litter. Geez, I just put two and two together...that picture of Power~~that's baby Austin isn't it??!
> 
> When I was totally new to the breed, I joined the big Yahoo group and started listening in and asking questions. I got plenty of help and information from you, from Glo Dittman, Barbara from CharBar, Kimberly from Havtahava, Kathy Patrick, and Claudie Parrish. Many breeders out there are taking time with the newbies to explain about the breed and how to buy a dog! Many of you also have information on your websites to help a new buyer know what to ask and what to look for. I used information on what questions to ask a breeder from information I gathered on-line. You can only help those that want help.
> 
> The truth is that some people don't want help. They don't want to think about genetics, vet bills, or bad breeders. They don't want to believe others will try and cheat them. They want puppy kisses! It's that quick fix, buy now, I love it! thing that just seems like it should be fun and easy! Most buyers aren't being realistic about the responsibility of pet ownership. They'd never once consider adopting a child in the same careless fashion they would adopt a pet.
> 
> I don't know what happened recently to bring you down, but I do want you to know...you sure helped me! :kiss:


Christy,

I can't agree with you more! Sadly, I don't think all the education in the world can change much.

Our whole society, especially here in America, revolves around instant gratification! LOL, I mean, if you really think about it...most of our wealthiest entrepreneurs are rich from making something "quicker" or "more easily available", etc. The microwave, the car, the computer...all things to to speed up our lives in some way! We are just conditioned by so many little things to "get it now", and that's what keeps the mills' in business.

I think from the time I started researching the Havanese breed and the day I got Gucci, was probably close to 6 months..

You did the ideal thing by talking to so many breeders and finding ones that really educated you  In the long run, a person will spend less money on healthy puppy. Of course, there is always a chance of injury induced chrondo, or other types of conditions that require surgery, but the more we focus on the genetics and health, those risks go way down!

Kara


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## Missy

Jan, I think you are a wonderful breeder and educator to all of us on the forum. I too went into getting Jasper with little knowledge but tried to educate myself on the way. I was turned down by the "reputable" breeder in my area-- I only worked from home 2-3 out of 5 days a week and would arrange for a pet sitter on the days I was away. for some reason I was refused. Which made me go with a breeder for Jasper that answered all the questions wrong. No registration, would not even show me his pedigree, she said she health tested but showed no proof-- we couldn't see where the pups were kept but were greeted in an anti-room--- she did give a 5 year health guarantee (would give you a new puppy) Luckily Jasper is a great dog (sometimes a little sad) but healthy and very complex. But even after our success with Jasper when we were looking for Cash- This same breeder refused me for an older 15 month old dog she was looking to place. Nothing had changed in my life except I raised a lovely Hav. (I still don't know what I did wrong) 

So I broke my rule and Had Cash shipped from a wonderful loving breeder but who because of a lot of family obstacles has stopped breeding. I wish I had been more Forum savvy at the time to know who were breeders and how to pm--- because Jan and Hilliary and Tom and Katie. I would have loved to have gotten one of your precious charges. You all are so caring and I know give them the right socialization (perhaps Jaspers only fault) And you also seem realistic about people having to work for a living (and to pay for pampering their Hav's_ And when MHS strikes for real and I can no longer talk sense into myself--- I will certainly wait for one of your litters (provided I pass scrutiny LOL)


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## mckennasedona

Missy,
I'm sure you did nothing wrong. Many good breeders won't place a dog in a home where both people work but thankfully some good breeders will. I would feel bad about being turned down too, especially since I KNOW my girls have a wonderful home where they are spoiled and cherished. Literally every decision we make about our home (landscaping, furniture choices, household cleaners, etc.) is made with them in mind. Because we work weekdays we spend our weekends with the girls. We take vacations that they can join us on. We have yet to spend even one night away from them and McKenna is over 3 years old. (Of course, if we had children who could stay with them that might be different....) My husband built an elaborate set of steps for Sedona to be able to get up onto our bed because he felt the ready made ones were too flimsy or she could fall off.

I appreciate all breeders who take the time to educate the people they come in contact with. I do my best to educate too. Our dear friends adopted a Westie from our local shelter. They want another one eventually and I have been talking their ears off telling them to be sure to find breed clubs, talk to breeders, contact Westie rescue etc. Don't simply look in the newspaper and jump on the cutest puppy they see.

Susan


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## Lina

Missy, I definitely understand your frustration. My fiance and I both work and I truly believe that Kubrick couldn't be a happier puppy. Everyone who comes into our house always comment on what a happy puppy he is! I would have been very upset if a good breeder turned me down based on the fact that I work. I might be wrong here, but I think that just because a person stays at home does not mean that they will give their best to a puppy and do everything possible including researching and getting the best food, treats, and toys. Just because I'm gone 5-6 hours a day, 4-5 days a week, and Kubrick is alone (with a room full of toys, a flossie, boiled chicken cooked with garlic powder and USDA approved beef jerky - no really, he is a completely miserable dog ) during that time, does NOT mean that I am a worse Hav owner than someone who doesn't work and stays home all day. Just my personal opinion.

And I mean no offense to people here who don't work or who work from home! If I could, I would totally do it myself.


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## Missy

Lina, I agree it is all about the people and not their status as working or non working. We joke that our boys when we leave have their own 2 room, I bath (their potty room), vaulted ceiling condo- with great views of the mailman in front and squirrells in back. We find ourselves missing them if we go out to dinner- so we cook more now to be with them.


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## Thumper

Missy, 

I can't believe you were turned down twice by the same breeder, nonetheless.

Heck, I didn't even have the issue of working and leaving the puppy at home alone, I only work a day or two a week and take her with me and I had a few Virginia breeders (now HSD) that would NOT return any of my phone calls OR emails! And I didn't even sound like the "village idiot"! I used proper sentences, capital letters in the right places, commas in the right places, etc! LOL I was like SHEESH!!!!! :frusty: Why won't these people TALK To me?!! I have 'proper' phone manners! We make our living on the phone! lol Rejection is not something I cope with well. lol And the funny thing is, that they were referred to me by another breeder who was friends with them all. Odd.

But, just because someone works doesn't mean they can't provide a loving home. Heck, the guy next door to me w/ the crazy weim/lab works from home and he NEGLECTS his dog. He just leaves her outside barking all day so he won't have to deal with her! So, just because someone is home all day, doesn't mean the dog will get more attention. No way.

Kara


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## Leeann

I strongly agree with you girls. The cost of living in some states just don't allow us to be a one income home. We too have made changes to our lives for our boys heck I now get up at 4:30 in the morning just so I have a couple of hours home with my boys before I have to go to work. The sad part about this is when the weekend comes and 4:30 rolls around they think it is time to get up LOL. Everything we do is scheduled around our boys spending time with us.


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