# I LOVE shaping <3



## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

I have been working with Timmy on crate training. I wish I had done this with him when he was younger but I didn't, and now with Mae coming, I really wanted him to be comfortable being in his crate so I can train Mae properly. I decided to start shaping with him to build his confidence on getting inside and hopefully, eventually, have him go in voluntarily although I had my doubts. We started shaping about a week ago and did at least one training session a day, but sometimes we did two. I started click/treat when Tim would look at the crate
click/treat when he sniffed the crate
click treat when he put his head inside the crate door
click/treat when he put his foot in the crate
click/treat when he put two feet in the crate
click/treat when he went inside the crate
click/treat when he went inside and layed down
I got to the point where he would go inside the crate himself very dependably and lay down yay! At this point I would just click/praise and throw the treat outside the crate so he would go out and then turn around and go back inside.
Here's a quick video I shot a couple days ago, he's so funny I can hear the gears turning in his head trying to figure out what I want.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9838885666/
I wish I would have video'd him during this process but I'm horrible about that stuff. We are now working on closing the door and having me leave the room for a couple minutes and he's doing great. I usually put the crate away when we're done working since that's what I've done, and been told, in the past to do with the object I'm shaping to in case he does something positive and I'm not around to reward, but I decided to leave the crate out. Well, I went out to run some errands and came back to this;
 :whoo: :whoo:
He was sleeping in his crate!!!!! Yes!!!! I was so excited. I knew someone here will understand Tim's accomplishment, I'm sure when I tell my family they'll just say "oh that's good" Anyways, thanks for listening I was so excited I had to share, funny how the little things make your day.


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## Zarika (Dec 16, 2012)

That's great!


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

That's awesome!! He looks very comfortable


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## emichel (May 3, 2012)

That's not little, that's big. Good work!


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## Lila (Apr 9, 2013)

Awww, I can't view the video for some reason??? but you've done a great job Jen!! Timmy's doing fantastic. Mikey has been crate trained from the beginning but he doesn't stay in his crate when we're home. He'll go in and out but never stay in it. He sleeps in it (because I make him) and he's in it when I'm gone (because I make him). He's not afraid of it but he really hates being in it when we're home. He's good in it at night and while we're gone, which is great but I don't think he views it as a safe place. But maybe he would if we had young kids around or another dog. It's just me, my husband and Mikey so he always feels safe.

Keep up the good work you two :clap2:


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## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

Yeah for Timmy ad you! :cheer2: this will make things easier when Mae arrives!


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## misstray (Feb 6, 2011)

Awesome!


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## sandypaws (Aug 8, 2012)

That's great, Jen. Timmy definitely has his thinking cap on in the video. You've done a great job with an adult dog who wasn't crate trained as a puppy. As the saying goes, you can teach an old dog new tricks, not that Timmy is old, but you know what I mean. Kudos to you both!


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## whimsy (Apr 3, 2010)

Way to go!!! Timmy is a smart little guy! ( cute too)


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## Regina (Mar 9, 2013)

Love the video Jenny, he is such a good boy ! When he looks at you with his facial expressions he looks human! he sooo cute!


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## RitaandRiley (Feb 27, 2012)

Yay, Timmy! Exciting stuff!


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## shimpli (Mar 24, 2010)

Good job! Love his expression when he is in the crate and looks at you like "where is my treat, Mom?" Adorable!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

great stuff Jen.


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## puppy-love (Nov 9, 2012)

Wow, great job Jen & Timmy! I'm inspired to try this too! Julie goes in her crate to sleep at night but we haven't used the crate otherwise. It could be really useful now. Thanks for sharing this!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

If I were you, leave the crate out! my guys will go to their crates, all the time when I am not home, or if they are ready for bed! He is doing fantastic! I bet you are getting excited about meeting your baby sister!!!!


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## Ruth4Havs (May 13, 2013)

*xciting!!!*

How exciting for you! Go, Tommy and Jen!:cheer2:


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## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

We crate all our dogs any time we leave them. Not so much because we expect misbehavior but because you never know for certain what might set off a doggie disagreement or sudden urge to eat the sofa! I believe that digs should be able to be crated and be content with crating whether it is needed for medical, Behaviorial, or convenience situations. We crate routinely not out of necessity but out of desire that all 4 of our dogs accept crating whenever it is necessary!


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## Beau's mom (Oct 6, 2011)

Beau loves his crate! We have two of them (virtually identical). I don't think I've actually closed him in for at least a year. He alternates between the crate and his doggy bed throughout the day. I'm not really sure that he thinks it's a safe place -- but he definitely thinks it's a comfortable place!

Way to go, Jen! I think shaping is terrific! I think it's wild that you can "think" them into doing what you want them to do!


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## Ruth4Havs (May 13, 2013)

P. S. I love your new signature picture of Mae and Timmy - too cute!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Awesome job, Jen! Shaping really is fun. You can just see those wheels turning n their little brains!


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## tra_po (Aug 14, 2013)

He's such a good, sweet boy and I love his face! Good work!


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## Sparkle (May 17, 2012)

That's awesome, Jen! Life will be so much easier with Timmy. And you can just start crate-training Mae when she comes home. Smart cookie!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Just caught up with this thread, a bit late in the day, but wanted to add that I LOVE shaping, too; I love watching Cuba think. I love her making the decisions. I love giving her choices. I love that it means the whole business of learning is a shared experience. I love that, from both my and Cuba's points of view, it WORKS!!!!


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## tra_po (Aug 14, 2013)

I'm just reading about shaping in The Focused Puppy. I wish some of you lived closer. I need help!  It's overwhelming the things I want to be doing and want to try and hard to mete out what is/not the right thing for Ludo. I seem to have that problem in other areas of my life, too. LOL! Life coach, maybe?


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

tra_po said:


> I'm just reading about shaping in The Focused Puppy. I wish some of you lived closer. I need help!  It's overwhelming the things I want to be doing and want to try and hard to mete out what is/not the right thing for Ludo. I seem to have that problem in other areas of my life, too. LOL! Life coach, maybe?


Sadly I couldn't live much further away if I tried!!! Shaping is SO exciting. Ludo will thrive on it. There are so many people on this wonderful forum who can help you! If you want pointing in the direction of some very good books, I can do that, tra_po, maybe pm me if you are interested? I don't want to preach to the already converted! Or, indeed, to you! Only if useful!!! Lalla


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

What exactly are you trying to do with Ludo? I'm no expert with shaping but everything I've done with Tim in regards to shaping has worked so that must mean something. Remind me again how old is Ludo?


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## tra_po (Aug 14, 2013)

jabojenny said:


> What exactly are you trying to do with Ludo? I'm no expert with shaping but everything I've done with Tim in regards to shaping has worked so that must mean something. Remind me again how old is Ludo?


Ludo is 15 weeks. I don't have anything specific I'd like to do with him beyond learning to "train" with commands (for lack of a less forceful word) and breaking it up for him so it's not overwhelming. He's a bit fearful, too, so I think shaping might help him with his confidence and any anxieties.


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

Hi Traci, I have no idea if shaping would work with 15 week old pups, but I know I'm going to give it a try when Mae gets here. I think it might take you longer getting results with younger dogs since their attention span is so short. Start out really simple, I started with Tim going on a mat, but you could start with Ludo going to his bed, something he does anyway. Start out with baby steps, even if he looks at his bed give him a treat. You might have to get down on the floor and even lower your head to see when he just glances at his bed and reward right when he does, it's all in the timing. Don't bring in anything verbal until he does what you ultimately want on a consistent basis. Keep sessions short, like less then 5 minutes, end on a good note. I think it's more advantageous to do more mini sessions then one longer one with Tim. Do you use a clicker? If not, you might want to start working with one, I was anti clicker until one of Tim's trainers suggested I try it and now I love them. Hope that helps, I think the clicker might be helpful in terms if timing rewards with the action you want. If Ludo knows the clicker sound is a reward you can click way faster then offering a treat. Just remember, especially with younger dogs, to prime your clicker before using it, click/treat, click/treat, click/treat repetitively before you start your formal training, they'll learn that treat follows click very quickly. I've gotten to the point with Tim that I can tell him "In your crate" and he jumps in and lays down, but it took time. I don't give him a treat all the time he goes in because now he does it so dependably but he gets LOTS of praise when he does it. Now we're working on closing the door for longer durations and leaving the room and he'll happily go to sleep in there with no complaints, something I thought he would never do earlier. He'll even stay in the crate when I return and open the door. Hope that helps let me know if you have any more questions.

I'm sure everyone will agree that we need some updated pictures of Ludo when you have the chance! He's such a cutie!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

tra_po said:


> Ludo is 15 weeks. I don't have anything specific I'd like to do with him beyond learning to "train" with commands (for lack of a less forceful word) and breaking it up for him so it's not overwhelming. He's a bit fearful, too, so I think shaping might help him with his confidence and any anxieties.


Hi, Traci - Jen's description of shaping was really good - it's SO important to get the timing right, having first primed the understanding of the clicker; I can't actually imagine how you would be able to shape nearly as well without a clicker - the precision of the click is what makes it possible to take those baby steps. Cuba and I started shaping the day after I got her home, at 12 weeks. Sessions should be short, as Jen says, but they should be short to begin with whatever the age of the puppy. It's not so much attention span - Cuba would actually rather go on longer than I will let her, but it's very tiring, all that thinking and working it out, so it's important to rest them. Five minutes a few times a day is easy for even the tiniest puppy, and if you are lucky and have a responsive puppy it is SO wonderful. A lot of learning goes on between sessions, in any case; sometimes you think you haven't made huge progress, but when you come back to it after a break they have digested the information and learned in the gap. I would personally get a good book on the subject - there is a lot of muddled thinking about clicker training since it became popular but many trainers didn't understand the science behind it. So there is a sort of mish-mash of semi-clicking going on out there and finding a really good trainer is quite hard; I'm sure there'll be great advice on this forum, and people local to you who might know where to turn. Kay Laurence's "Teaching with Reinforcement" is a great book though quite technical if you are into that. Mary Ray's "Dog Tricks" is a tiny little book with loads of sense, and teaches 'tricks' the clicker way. "The Thinking Dog" by Gail Tamases Fisher is really good on shaping - very easy to understand, and because she came at clicker training from having been a non-clicker trainer herself, she is a good explainer of how she learned, and you learn with her. Karen Pryor's website (clickertraining.com) would point you in loads of directions, too - they have books and videos (some for puppy training), and lots more. Hope that helps! I'm SO fascinated by this big, thrilling subject; the power of it, and the fun for the learner is wonderful. The speed and accuracy of learning is just amazing. I DO think it would give Ludo confidence - being able to think for himself, not being forced into anything, working it out and succeeding is just great for confidence building.


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## tra_po (Aug 14, 2013)

Jen and Lalla - you two are amazing. I got so much out of your posts. Thank you so much. And Jen - can't wait to meet Mae. (My daughter's name is Maeve and we call her Mae so I have a soft spot for her immediately!) 

Off to look at books and websites! I'm fascinated, too.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

tra_po said:


> Jen and Lalla - you two are amazing. I got so much out of your posts. Thank you so much. And Jen - can't wait to meet Mae. (My daughter's name is Maeve and we call her Mae so I have a soft spot for her immediately!)
> 
> Off to look at books and websites! I'm fascinated, too.


here's a good site http://www.clickertraining.com/


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

tra_po said:


> Jen and Lalla - you two are amazing. I got so much out of your posts. Thank you so much. And Jen - can't wait to meet Mae. (My daughter's name is Maeve and we call her Mae so I have a soft spot for her immediately!)
> 
> Off to look at books and websites! I'm fascinated, too.


Really hope Ludo is enthralled, too!!! Keep us posted, Traci, I look forward to hearing how you go!! Maybe we should start a 'shaping' thread? I've just taught Cuba to tidy up her toys - she's so sweet, she carts them off one by one and puts them in her bed! Then can't quite understand why her bed isn't very comfortable any more!! Now I need to shape her to put them into some other thing so she still has a bed! Years ago, with my first Coton, Pamba, the first thing we shaped was to choose a particular toy out of a choice of about six toys (I knew I wanted her to pick up the spotted dog toy, she had no idea what I wanted); no words spoken, just clicking and treating like playing 'hotter and colder, you're getting warmer, no, you're getting colder again). She got the right toy in a matter of about four or five minutes. Then I wanted her to take it to her bed, put it in there, climb in with it and lay her head on the toy. Eventually, when she'd got it (a couple of sessions of about eight minutes each) I cued it "Sleepy". Thereafter, if ever I said the word "Sleepy" she would find that particular toy, take it to her bed, put it in, get in herself, and lay her head on it. I once took this toy to a class where we were working on retrieves, threw it for her to retrieve, and she rushed after it, lay down beside it and laid her head on it!!! All my fault, for not realising that she would have this pattern set up with this particular toy!! She couldn't understand why everyone laughed so much, poor baby!!!! Once you learn how powerful the click is, how important the timing of even the slightest little movement, turn of the head, paw lifted, weight shift, in the right direction then you will realise what can be achieved. The most useful timing advice I ever heard is to think of the click as if it were a camera, taking a snapshot of exactly the moment you want to capture. It's so much fun, Traci. Enjoy what it does for you, for Ludo's confidence, for your relationship, for his ability to learn anything you want. And with no pressure, no coercing, no negative anything - just the joy of learning how to communicate.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> here's a good site http://www.clickertraining.com/


Yes, that's the Karen Pryor one, Traci - Dave's right, it's a really good site. I read Karen Pryor's book "Don't Shoot the Dog" years ago, it's really interesting about operant conditioning (which is what clicker training is) and talks quite a lot about humans, too - breaking down any learning curve into tiny increments, like learning how to serve in tennis broken down into tiny little steps. Fascinating stuff. Worked wonders with getting my husband to empty the dishwasher and other little tasks!!!!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

COngratulations!!!!! What a smart boy you have!!! and kudos to you for training him right!!!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

I'm just reading a REALLY good book on shaping, but also a lovely read about 'an unlikely champion'; this is one woman's story with her one (not easy!!) dog; it's called "Shaping Success ( The Education of an Unlikely Champion) by Susan Garrett; Amazon.com has it. I think it is a wonderfully helpful book on many levels, and utterly readable and gripping, too; don't be put off by thinking that this is a book just about agility, which is what it rather looks like. It's so much more than that. It's more of a training journal, it's funny, she shares her mistakes as readily as her triumphs - it's a great dog story. I'm only about a third of the way through, but it's worth it already, and I'm sure there are more treasures to come. The early couple of chapters on how to shape successfully are amongst the clearest and most helpful that I've read. And I've read lots and lots and lots!! Seriously recommended.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> I'm just reading a REALLY good book on shaping, but also a lovely read about 'an unlikely champion'; this is one woman's story with her one (not easy!!) dog; it's called "Shaping Success ( The Education of an Unlikely Champion) by Susan Garrett; Amazon.com has it. I think it is a wonderfully helpful book on many levels, and utterly readable and gripping, too; don't be put off by thinking that this is a book just about agility, which is what it rather looks like. It's so much more than that. It's more of a training journal, it's funny, she shares her mistakes as readily as her triumphs - it's a great dog story. I'm only about a third of the way through, but it's worth it already, and I'm sure there are more treasures to come. The early couple of chapters on how to shape successfully are amongst the clearest and most helpful that I've read. And I've read lots and lots and lots!! Seriously recommended.


Susan Garrett is great. She also has a blog/mailing list for her followers, and has on-line courses. Some people think she's all about agility. Though that is her sport, most of her training advice is applicable all dogs, no matter what they will be doing later in life, or (probably especially) if their main use is "just " as a pet!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

I'm really pleased you think she's a good thing, Karen; I, too, thought it was going to be about agility, but 'shaping' in the title sold it to me anyway, and I'm SO glad I bought it. Who knows, Cuba might even take to agility one day (I might, even!!) But that is by no means all that this book is about. And if you never wanted to train a dog at all, it's a lovely read. And you are so right re 'just' a pet! I think it's such a sad thing when 'just' pets don't get the chance to learn and use their minds and abilities. She's interesting about the difference between teaching 'parlour' tricks and teaching genuine understanding of the learning process, both for dog and owner. The difference is so exciting. I shall certainly look up Susan Garrett's on-line resources.


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## Herminny (Oct 6, 2013)

Excellent thread  have ordered my clicker and can't wait! :ranger:


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Great, Herminny, I'm really happy you are on the way to being clicker hooked!! Wait till you get shaping hooked. Let us know how you get on!

I've looked at Susan Garrett's website now, Karen - loads of interesting stuff, and DVDs and other books, and links to lots of YouTube films. I SO love all this!


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## Herminny (Oct 6, 2013)

Lalla said:


> Great, Herminny, I'm really happy you are on the way to being clicker hooked!! Wait till you get shaping hooked. Let us know how you get on!
> 
> I've looked at Susan Garrett's website now, Karen - loads of interesting stuff, and DVDs and other books, and links to lots of YouTube films. I SO love all this!


I am still 3 weeks off getting my puppy, but yes I think I am already hooked! Have been watching videos and find it truly incredible how well they catch on, I have low expectations for my young puppy but I like the idea of 5min sessions.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Herminny said:


> I am still 3 weeks off getting my puppy, but yes I think I am already hooked! Have been watching videos and find it truly incredible how well they catch on, I have low expectations for my young puppy but I like the idea of 5min sessions.


I think that BEFORE you get your puppy is a really good time to do all this sort of research; you will have so much else to think about once you are rushing around doing puppy things! And please, please don't have low expectations! There is no need to. This works. Have HIGH expectations, and your puppy will live up to them, just don't be disappointed when things take time. I've long since learned that when my expectations aren't met it is usually I who have been ambiguous/ ill-timed/rushing it/mis-cueing something/unhelpful in some way. A wonderful way to practice shaping is to do so with another human. Use any token for treats - penny coins, whatever. Have a handful. Get your clicker. Think of what you want your partner to do. Then, every time they take the slightest step, or make the slightest (and I do mean REALLY tiny increments) move towards whatever, wherever it is you want them to do/go click as they do it and give them a coin. When they go the wrong way ignore it. This truly builds up skills. You can do it sitting at a table with a variety of objects - say a spoon, scissors, a cup, a book...and decide that you want them to pick up the spoon. Then add to that that you want them to pick up the spoon and put it in the cup. Etc. It is really fun, especially with children, but another adult is just as good. This practice can really help you get your timing better. Have fun!! It IS fun!!!


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## Herminny (Oct 6, 2013)

Lalla said:


> I think that BEFORE you get your puppy is a really good time to do all this sort of research; you will have so much else to think about once you are rushing around doing puppy things! And please, please don't have low expectations! There is no need to. This works. Have HIGH expectations, and your puppy will live up to them, just don't be disappointed when things take time. I've long since learned that when my expectations aren't met it is usually I who have been ambiguous/ ill-timed/rushing it/mis-cueing something/unhelpful in some way. A wonderful way to practice shaping is to do so with another human. Use any token for treats - penny coins, whatever. Have a handful. Get your clicker. Think of what you want your partner to do. Then, every time they take the slightest step, or make the slightest (and I do mean REALLY tiny increments) move towards whatever, wherever it is you want them to do/go click as they do it and give them a coin. When they go the wrong way ignore it. This truly builds up skills. You can do it sitting at a table with a variety of objects - say a spoon, scissors, a cup, a book...and decide that you want them to pick up the spoon. Then add to that that you want them to pick up the spoon and put it in the cup. Etc. It is really fun, especially with children, but another adult is just as good. This practice can really help you get your timing better. Have fun!! It IS fun!!!


Lol thanks for the advice, low expectations probably wasn't the right way to put it, I hope that my puppy will do really well and I am very keen to use it as a trust/build confidence as well as shaping his behaviour to be appropriate but at 10 weeks and a lon way to go until adulthood I expect frustration and setbacks. I could try it on my unsuspecting housemates , in the meantime will stick to videos. I also just got a few books to read today


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Herminny said:


> Lol thanks for the advice, low expectations probably wasn't the right way to put it, I hope that my puppy will do really well and I am very keen to use it as a trust/build confidence as well as shaping his behaviour to be appropriate but at 10 weeks and a lon way to go until adulthood I expect frustration and setbacks. I could try it on my unsuspecting housemates , in the meantime will stick to videos. I also just got a few books to read today


Definitely try it on your housemates! If you go to Karen Pryor's website (http://store.clickertraining.com/puppy-training-videos.html) there's a good DVD called 'Clicker Puppy'; one of the puppies in the video is, I think, only 6 weeks old, he's called Boomer, he's a Jack Russell or something. They film him being trained by a five year old child. It will raise your expectations!!! For me, I know it is of myself that my expectations are low, Cuba is usually way ahead of me.

I've just been reading your other post about fires in your area - I do hope your breeder is ok. Thinking of you all.


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## Herminny (Oct 6, 2013)

Sounds good, will have a look. 
Yeah there was something like 2000 firefighters, as far as I have heard they have done an amazing job, usually lots and lots of houses lost/ppl killed, but I don't think there has been a direct death, although there were a fair few homes lost at the start of the week. I think the air quality has been a bit of a problem.
The breeder is the on,y actual person I know in the area-ish and he is fine gave me a call today.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Herminny said:


> Sounds good, will have a look.
> Yeah there was something like 2000 firefighters, as far as I have heard they have done an amazing job, usually lots and lots of houses lost/ppl killed, but I don't think there has been a direct death, although there were a fair few homes lost at the start of the week. I think the air quality has been a bit of a problem.
> The breeder is the on,y actual person I know in the area-ish and he is fine gave me a call today.


What a relief; it must be hideously scary to be in the thick of it. I'll stop now, don't want to hijack this thread!!! We'll go back to shaping! Take care and keep us posted - look forward to seeing photos of your new puppy soon!


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## shazartist (Jul 30, 2013)

Lalla said:


> Definitely try it on your housemates! If you go to Karen Pryor's website (http://store.clickertraining.com/puppy-training-videos.html) there's a good DVD called 'Clicker Puppy'; one of the puppies in the video is, I think, only 6 weeks old, he's called Boomer, he's a Jack Russell or something. They film him being trained by a five year old child. It will raise your expectations!!! For me, I know it is of myself that my expectations are low, Cuba is usually way ahead of me.
> 
> I've just been reading your other post about fires in your area - I do hope your breeder is ok. Thinking of you all.


Thank you for the link lalla,

I have no idea how you use a clicker. The whole shaping thing is a bit over my head atm, I am just working on the basics of behaving. I was useless with my children too  no idea how to get anyone to do as I want. 

cheers Sharon


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> I'm really pleased you think she's a good thing, Karen; I, too, thought it was going to be about agility, but 'shaping' in the title sold it to me anyway, and I'm SO glad I bought it. Who knows, Cuba might even take to agility one day (I might, even!!) But that is by no means all that this book is about. And if you never wanted to train a dog at all, it's a lovely read. And you are so right re 'just' a pet! I think it's such a sad thing when 'just' pets don't get the chance to learn and use their minds and abilities. She's interesting about the difference between teaching 'parlour' tricks and teaching genuine understanding of the learning process, both for dog and owner. The difference is so exciting. I shall certainly look up Susan Garrett's on-line resources.


I agree. If there is one thing I've learned in my 4 years with Kodi is that dogs are SO much smarter than they are given credit for. Not just in terms of what you can "train" them to do, but in the concepts they can truly grasp. When you see a dog start to think for himself and figure things OUT rather than just follow "commands", it is really amazing. You start to wonder just what the limits of these very different minds are. Yes, their brains work differently than ours, and their strengths and weaknesses are very different as well, but they have their own, unique intelligence that should not be taken lightly or dismissed too quickly.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> Great, Herminny, I'm really happy you are on the way to being clicker hooked!! Wait till you get shaping hooked. Let us know how you get on!
> 
> I've looked at Susan Garrett's website now, Karen - loads of interesting stuff, and DVDs and other books, and links to lots of YouTube films. I SO love all this!


Also check out Denise Fenzi. She is an R+ trainer who has produced OTCH dogs. (our highest level of AKC Obedience awards) I've had the privilege of working with her in person, and the trainers I work with regularly work with her when she's in town too. She's amazing.

Her "personal play" and "ring readiness" training have helped me tremendously with Kodi. We went through a (luckily, fairly short) period where he was getting stressed and shut down in the ring. I could work him in practice and keep things up-beat with food rewards, but when I went into the competition ring,he would get stressed, which would get me stressed (I don't want to do it if he's not having fun!) and things would go down hill.

I did a two day workshop with her, where she worked with me to find ways to engage Kodi and play with him in the ring... things that he found very motivating and fun that were allowable between exercises. We also worked on establishing a very set routine (different for each dog, depending on their needs) to get them prepared and attentive to enter the ring. We did it with higher and higher levels of distraction until the dogs were able to give us their TOTAL attention, even if someone was bouncing a tennis ball or eating a turkey sandwich just beside the ring gate. Then, when the dog successfully made it past these distractions (which, of course, built slowly, over time!) we would just explode into "party time" inside the ring, doing whatever the dog really liked, whether it was playing with a ball, playing tug, "pop-up" hand touches, etc.

The combination of Kodi learning to enter the ring up-beat and ready to work, and me having ways to engage him and keep him happy WITHIN his work has been HUGE. The stress displacement behaviors (like scratching when he wasn't itchy, or sniffing the floor when there was nothing there) are, for the most part, gone. He's a very happy dog in the ring again, and that is VITALLY important to me.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> I think that BEFORE you get your puppy is a really good time to do all this sort of research; you will have so much else to think about once you are rushing around doing puppy things! And please, please don't have low expectations! There is no need to. This works. Have HIGH expectations, and your puppy will live up to them, just don't be disappointed when things take time. I've long since learned that when my expectations aren't met it is usually I who have been ambiguous/ ill-timed/rushing it/mis-cueing something/unhelpful in some way. A wonderful way to practice shaping is to do so with another human. Use any token for treats - penny coins, whatever. Have a handful. Get your clicker. Think of what you want your partner to do. Then, every time they take the slightest step, or make the slightest (and I do mean REALLY tiny increments) move towards whatever, wherever it is you want them to do/go click as they do it and give them a coin. When they go the wrong way ignore it. This truly builds up skills. You can do it sitting at a table with a variety of objects - say a spoon, scissors, a cup, a book...and decide that you want them to pick up the spoon. Then add to that that you want them to pick up the spoon and put it in the cup. Etc. It is really fun, especially with children, but another adult is just as good. This practice can really help you get your timing better. Have fun!! It IS fun!!!


I agree! For me, the hardest part, especially for a first-time dog owner/trainer has been setting/holding criteria. Because I've trained horses all my life, I know instinctively how I want the horse to feel within a gait, or whether he is sliding out through my outside aides. (leg and rein for you non-horse people ) With a dog, it was much harder for me to hold criteria for a perfectly straight set-up, whenI didn't know what a perfectly straight set-up looked like. So Kodi has had to fumble along with me. Fortunately, he's been a VERY forgiving and giving partner! (and I think this is probably true of most Havanese... they are SUCH "people pleasers!)

Another thing to practice before the puppy comes home is getting your clicker timing ACCURATE. If your timing is off, you can be clicking (and reinforcing!) something completely different than you intended. The way I was taught to click accurately was my trainer would bounce a tennis ball on the floor and I had to learn to click at the exact same time it hit the floor, so you heard both sounds together. It's harder than you'd think, but a very important skill to develop!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Another absolutely WONDERFUL book, and one that I think should be sort of a "bible" for puppy-rearing is "The Focused Puppy" by Deb Jones and Judy Keller.

The Focused Puppy: Deborah Jones, Judy Keller: 9781892694263: Amazon.com: Books

I wish I'd known about this book when I got Kodi!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> Another absolutely WONDERFUL book, and one that I think should be sort of a "bible" for puppy-rearing is "The Focused Puppy" by Deb Jones and Judy Keller.
> 
> The Focused Puppy: Deborah Jones, Judy Keller: 9781892694263: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> I wish I'd known about this book when I got Kodi!


Thank you, Karen - I've found 'The Focused Puppy' on Amazon.co.uk and ordered it instantly - I'm a sucker for all the books I can lay my hands on; the problem is laying my hands on the time to read them all!! What I need is "The Focused Puppy Owner"!! I'll look up Denise Fenzi, too.

Shazartist, shaping is NOT over your head at the moment!!! It is the way to learn even the most basic behaviours in the most effective way. Go to Karen Pryor's site and look up the DVD section and get 'Clicker Puppy' as a REALLY simple way to get going. You will be thrilled by results acquired SO much more easily and long-lastingly and excitingly than any other method, I absolutely promise you. It ISN"T hard; it's much harder to slog away at a less effective method, honestly it is!


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## shazartist (Jul 30, 2013)

Thanks Lalla :0


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> Susan Garrett is great. She also has a blog/mailing list for her followers, and has on-line courses. Some people think she's all about agility. Though that is her sport, most of her training advice is applicable all dogs, no matter what they will be doing later in life, or (probably especially) if their main use is "just " as a pet!


Just got Susan Garrett's DVD "Crate Games"; really interesting use of the crate in all sorts of ways for training generally, not just the usual. You would never think of the crate as necessarily being the obvious choice as a training tool for some of the things achieved in this video. Cuba's never been crate trained because of the peeing-in-her-bed problem, but I might now go back to it and use it for some of the things that I'm learning on this video. Recommended!!


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## shazartist (Jul 30, 2013)

I ordered Clicker Puppy by Karen Pryor yesterday and two different clickers.
I am hoping I am as good as my Dog is sure to be. I hope this is the DVD you meant Lalla. 

Yesterday I tried doing her nails with the electric nail grinder, AGAIN!. We try it every couple of days and she is not afraid of the noise but just wants to play with it. NOT good, I am worried about her tongue  she lets me touch her nails but then pulls away. 

She is only 4;5 months and a big chewer, everything goes in her mouth. SHe has learnt to jump up on the lounges and coffee table to grab what ever she can find, then take off, turns around with a big happy face and says CHase me  
We have never left her alone and she is a great pup, happy with everyone and anything she meets and does not bark. 

I just find it hard to settle her down even when she is tired she will find some energy to have a tussle and a play. needless to say my hands and toes look like I have had a fun time with barbed wire 

What I want to know is HOW do I hold her paw, find the nail, click the clicker, find a treat and manage to turn the grinder on ? as well as, try to find any of these things amongst the long shaggy hair AND keep my glasses on my nose! 

Well that's my day…I am tired already, where is my book! OHHH no 
I am putting a lot of hope into a click.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

shazartist said:


> I ordered Clicker Puppy by Karen Pryor yesterday and two different clickers.
> I am hoping I am as good as my Dog is sure to be. I hope this is the DVD you meant Lalla.
> 
> Yesterday I tried doing her nails with the electric nail grinder, AGAIN!. We try it every couple of days and she is not afraid of the noise but just wants to play with it. NOT good, I am worried about her tongue  she lets me touch her nails but then pulls away.
> ...


Hi, Shazartist - I'm sure others will have some really good suggestions; here are mine, for what they are worth (and I'm carrying on in the "I LOVE shaping "thread because actually most of it could qualify as a shaping answer!) And yes, "Clicker Puppy" is the right DVD.

a) It is GOOD that she wants to play with the grinder. Two days is a very short time; let her play with it switched off to begin with then you needn't worry about her tongue!! it might take you more like two weeks, or even longer, to condition her to finding the whole thing acceptable - Cuba still won't let me do more than a couple of nails at a time, and that's not easy. Every little bit she accepts well you need to click and treat. Grooming is the one time where I've found chewier treats to be a good thing, it takes longer and they are more distracted by them - exactly what you don't want in other situations. Again, there is a whole book devoted to clicker grooming if you are interested.
b) It's fine her being in a big space IF you are there to supervise and IF you expect her to use it as a playground. If you DON'T want her to, confine her to a smaller space. Cuba still has her exercise pen for periods of time when I don't want her to charge around; most of the charging around happens in the garden, but sometimes she gets the special privilege of a happy hurtle in the drawing room ONLY if I am watching like a hawk in case she does anything dire. And you are lucky she doesn't bark, that's one less problem to cure!!
c) She's bound to be super energetic, she's a puppy, but YOU are not a chew toy; get her things she CAN chew. Cuba has never much been interested in Kongs, but try them, they are great if they work. Otherwise find other things, and rotate toys so your puppy keeps on thinking they are a novelty. She really needs to learn what is ok to chew on and what is not. You and any part of you are NOT. Again, co-opt the clicker. Start playing shaping games with her like giving her five toys and shaping her to find a particular one that you want her to pick up. Then shape her to do other things with it - put it in her bed, take it to a particular place. All in tiny increments and short sessions - build things up little by little. That will tire her just as much as physical activity. Great for rainy days, too! Settle her down eventually by leaving her alone in her crate or pen and don't reinforce whining if she tries to get your attention.
d) Managing all those things at once: don't!!! Take it one step at a time. Use the clicker to help you. Click when she just sniffs the grinder; do that for a few days. Don't run before you can walk!! Small steps for you, too. Wet her paws to keep the hair out of the way, or stick them through a bit of stocking. It would be better to get a groomer or the vet to clip her nails while you slowly build up both her and your confidence over time, so that for the long term you have what you want, rather than setting up a mess from the word 'go'. 
e) don't put too much hope into the click too soon; YOU need to learn how to use it, learn its power, trust it to work ONCE you have taught yourself smooth mechanics. You can get a clicker (Mikki Clikka is the one I have, Amazon US has them not sure re Australia) on a small elastic strap that fits over your finger so it's easy to manage, or can hang on a lanyard; or there are ones with wrist straps - I find the finger strap really good, but everyone is different. It IS a lot to manage but anything where you have to learn the mechanics can be tricky; I'll bet you can drive and that is FAR FAR more complicated!!!! You will get better at it, but you won't be good to begin with so don't expect your puppy to be, either. Try Karen's tennis ball-timing exercise. Clicker training only fails when WE fail; if you have a responsive and energetic puppy, which you clearly have, she will LOVE working things out and earning her treats. Don't forget to subtract actual meal food - you don't want to stuff her to bursting. And make treats HIGH VALUE (something she really loves - liver, cheese, chicken, frankfurter...NOT boring kibble!!!) and TINY - about the size of a fat grain of rice.

I do hope all of that doesn't sound know-ally and annoying!! I'm learning all the time; others here know FAR more than I do and will tell you other things. This is FUN, not a chore. Once your puppy has learned what the clicker means she will begin to work with you and look forward to SHORT sessions (I don't do more than five or ten minutes at a time, a few times at day, sometimes only once or twice a day - a lot of learning goes on in between actual work).

Sorry this is such a long post - it's a BIG subject, and SO exciting that I am duty bound to lurch into capital letters at the DROP of a hat, and lots of exclamation marks!!! There are more brilliant books if you start to get into this, ditto DVDs. Keep enjoying your puppy and begin to enjoy what clicker training can do. Try not to stress or expect too much of either you or your puppy too soon. But day by day you will discover what powerful tools you possess in your clicker, your timing, and your puppy.


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## Ruthiec (Jun 18, 2013)

Charlie won't play fetch so we had such fun today shaping him to fetch his ball on a rope. I love the way I can almost see his brain working, thinking "ok, that got me a click the last few times but not this time, so what do I do now". Made great progress in 10 mins but I know we'll have to go back a bit tomorrow. 

Re the nail clipping I fully endorse what Lalla says. The one thing I read somewhere else which has helped me is to wet her paws first - much easier to keep the hair out of the way.


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## shazartist (Jul 30, 2013)

I put another post up, but it seems to have disappeared  
Havana loves to play fetch when it suits her, she loves to drop it in front and tease us, then runs away again. if she wants us to throw it she puts it in our hands. She loves golf balls the best. I purchased 6 kong Balls but they are not nearly as much fun, but great in the house. I had read about the wet paw! thank you so much for reminding me, I had totally forgotten.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Ruthiec said:


> Charlie won't play fetch so we had such fun today shaping him to fetch his ball on a rope. I love the way I can almost see his brain working, thinking "ok, that got me a click the last few times but not this time, so what do I do now". Made great progress in 10 mins but I know we'll have to go back a bit tomorrow.
> 
> Re the nail clipping I fully endorse what Lalla says. The one thing I read somewhere else which has helped me is to wet her paws first - much easier to keep the hair out of the way.


It is just wonderful watching them work it out, isn't it; hooray for Charlie!! I did mention the wetting paws idea in my incredibly long post! I think I got the idea from you in the first place - certainly read it somewhere on this forum. It's great, really helps! I think, too, that to begin with it's a good idea to get someone to help you if you can - not to restrain the dog in any way, but to keep its attention; if someone else is managing the treats it keeps the puppy's head up and out of the way while you have two hands free. You CAN do it on your own but an extra pair of hands is really useful. It's surprising how happy all sorts of people are to help - my builder who is here at the moment is an ace assistant! And it helps the puppy get used to other people at the same time.


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## shazartist (Jul 30, 2013)

Lalla said:


> It is just wonderful watching them work it out, isn't it; hooray for Charlie!! I did mention the wetting paws idea in my incredibly long post! I think I got the idea from you in the first place - certainly read it somewhere on this forum. It's good, really helps!


Lalla, 
my post in reply to your wonderful long post was apparently lost in the never never  
Thank you for all the information. And I am feeling more confident with the clicker. I ordered two, but they were not what what you have. One was an i-click, forgotten what the other was, but not a box.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

shazartist said:


> Lalla,
> my post in reply to your wonderful long post was apparently lost in the never never
> Thank you for all the information. And I am feeling more confident with the clicker. I ordered two, but they were not what what you have. One was an i-click, forgotten what the other was, but not a box.


the Mikki isn't a box, it's like an ordinary clicker except that the clicky bit is a small red ball, and the clicker itself has a little bit of elastic attached for sliding over your finer; you kind of forget its there, it just sits under your finger and you can't drop it or fumble for it so, for me, it's a good thing. It doesn't matter having lots of clickers, they don't cost all that much and they get lost easily! I have them all over the house. The other night I went out in a really elegant evening jacket and found I had a clicker and a poo bag in one pocket! NOT exactly elegant!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ruthiec said:


> Charlie won't play fetch so we had such fun today shaping him to fetch his ball on a rope. I love the way I can almost see his brain working, thinking "ok, that got me a click the last few times but not this time, so what do I do now". Made great progress in 10 mins but I know we'll have to go back a bit tomorrow.
> 
> Re the nail clipping I fully endorse what Lalla says. The one thing I read somewhere else which has helped me is to wet her paws first - much easier to keep the hair out of the way.


As someone who also had a puppy who didn't retrieve naturally, you may want to try this along with your clicker training. Put some really yummy treats in a small plastic food storage container and have him retrieve that. He will learn that he can't get the treats out by himself, and that he needs to bring it to you for help. Eventually, he learns that the retrieving itself is fun, and you can move on to other things! Here's picture of Kodi learning at about 16 weeks!


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## Ruthiec (Jun 18, 2013)

Karen that's a brilliant idea, thank you. I will be trying that today for sure.


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## Charleysmom (Dec 6, 2011)

Ruthiec said:


> Charlie won't play fetch so we had such fun today shaping him to fetch his ball on a rope. I love the way I can almost see his brain working, thinking "ok, that got me a click the last few times but not this time, so what do I do now". Made great progress in 10 mins but I know we'll have to go back a bit tomorrow.
> 
> Re the nail clipping I fully endorse what Lalla says. The one thing I read somewhere else which has helped me is to wet her paws first - much easier to keep the hair out of the way.


regarding teaching fetch. before throwing a ball I used to throw kibble. Charley had learned come so I threw a kibble and once he got the kibble i said come and he would get kibble again. This formed the basis of the fetch game. From there it was easy. I think I learned about this in Focused Puppy.

Also, even when we play now, if Charley doesn't retun the ball, I get up, say "that's it" and he know the game is over. At that point the ball drops right out of his mouth. I give him another chance. We play. But if he doesn't return I say "that's it" and the game is officially over. No more chances. Never go get the ball on your own. It's teaches them the anti fetch game.

Hope this helps.


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## shazartist (Jul 30, 2013)

I never thought about going and retrieving the ball my self, it taught them anti fetch, but you are correct it would. I have been going to get them. But I generally throw it once and if she is still not interested that's it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Charleysmom said:


> regarding teaching fetch. before throwing a ball I used to throw kibble. Charley had learned come so I threw a kibble and once he got the kibble i said come and he would get kibble again. This formed the basis of the fetch game. From there it was easy. I think I learned about this in Focused Puppy.
> 
> Also, even when we play now, if Charley doesn't retun the ball, I get up, say "that's it" and he know the game is over. At that point the ball drops right out of his mouth. I give him another chance. We play. But if he doesn't return I say "that's it" and the game is officially over. No more chances. Never go get the ball on your own. It's teaches them the anti fetch game.
> 
> Hope this helps.


You've got to get them to the point that they 1. understand to chase the ball, (most do that pretty easily) 2. understand that they need to pick it up, 3. understand that they need to come back with it, and 4. understand that they need to hand it to you.

Any dog with a smidgin of play drive is probably going to chase a rolling (or thrown) ball. The break down with Kodi was in understanding to bring it back. He wasn't playing "keep away", which you should NEVER engage in&#8230; way too rewarding for the dog. He would run to the ball (or whatever), pick it up, and stand there. When I called him back, he happily placed the object back on the ground and came running back! (no retriever in there!  ) He wasn't trying to keep the ball&#8230; he dropped it right where he found it. playing with me had more value for him than the ball.

To teach him about the container, I first showed him what was inside, and gave him a couple of the treats. Then I closed it up and dropped it by my feet while I sat in a chair. He first tried to get in on his own, (he couldn't) then tried to bat it around. (I ignored this) Eventually, he flipped it up with his mouth. I immediately clicked, opened the container and treated. Then I dropped it again. When he was reliably understanding to pick it up, I held out my hand. He knew the goodies were inside, and knew he needed my help to get them. Very soon, he would drop it in my hand. (click, treat) Then I started tossing it a short distance, progressively lengthening the distance, and finally switching to toys rather than the container.

Charleysmom, you are absolutely right that under no circumstances do you EVER want to let them think they can engage in "keep away". But if you have a dog who doesn't even get the concept, you have to break it down into baby steps. And Kodi certainly isn't the only dog who needs this. We live in a world where retrievers of one sort or another are the dominant breeds, or PART of many or most mongrels. For them, "fetch" is in their genes, and it's a matter of establishing the rules of the game. For Kodi and many other dogs, retrieving is not a natural behavior and they need to be taught the game!

OTOH, Kodi, with no training AT ALL, rounds up the neighbors chickens and sends them back into their pen when they get out. Now that is another kind of instinct!


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Maddie is my retriever and I created a monster. Its the only toy or game she likes. It lasts for hours if I let it.I love it when Zoey gets the ball and doesn't bring it back because I get a brake from throwing.:decision:


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