# Anyone know this breeder?



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Hi folks, I think I've got my SIL talked into a Hav as a "replacement" for her Collie who died last spring. _I_ want her to get one of the King's puppies, (surprise, surprise<g>) but she found a photo of a red brindle from another breeder, and has fallen in love. I checked out the website, and they SOUND like they are doing the right things. (and of course the puppy is adorable) So I have two questions:

Does anyone know this breeder? http://www.premierehavanese.com/

and

Do brindles fade as much as sables? I'm afraid she's attracted to this puppy because it's sort of "collie color" and doesn't understand that she may very well end up with an essentially white or cream dog.

Thanks!


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Is she sure that puppy is still available? It looks like the website was last updated Dec 13th.
He does look like he is getting a lot lighter underneath, cute as a button though.
I'm not familiar with the breeder but hopefully someone can help out.
Carole


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## Pixiesmom (Jul 31, 2008)

The site looks really good, and they're giving all of the right info. I'm not an expert, but I believe sables will retain the color for the most part. The entire hair is the same color and will grow out the same color, while a sable hair is just tipped. Neezers are known for the color changes, so who knows.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I don't know the breeder but the site looks good and I'm impressed by the fact that she'll give a refund anytime for any reason. It is an adorable puppy. I wouldn't worry about the color it will become as an adult (gorgeous, no doubt) since your SIL will be madly in love by that time and it won't matter.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mellowbo said:


> Is she sure that puppy is still available? It looks like the website was last updated Dec 13th.
> He does look like he is getting a lot lighter underneath, cute as a button though.
> I'm not familiar with the breeder but hopefully someone can help out.
> Carole


Yes, the puppy is available. She e-mailed the breeder this AM. She told me the mother is light, almost white, though. Thanks!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

pjewel said:


> I don't know the breeder but the site looks good and I'm impressed by the fact that she'll give a refund anytime for any reason. It is an adorable puppy. I wouldn't worry about the color it will become as an adult (gorgeous, no doubt) since your SIL will be madly in love by that time and it won't matter.


I liked what I saw on the site too. The only thing I was "worried" about with the color is that my SIL might think that the puppy would stay that color, and was attracted to him because he was "collie color". I checked with her, and she had no idea how much and how often Havs change color.

If the only reason she'd want this puppy over the King's puppy is the color, I don't want her to go with a breeder who might be good but I don't know for sure, over one that I trust implicitly. My brother prefers the King's Irish Pied girl.<g>

I told her to call each breeder and talk to them. I told her to CHECK on the health testing from the breeder we don't know (though, from the site, it looks like everything is in order) and I told her that if it were me, I'd also want to see soaped pictures of the parents and the puppy.


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

Yes, most brindles fade as much as sables.
My Heidi looked like a St. Bernard as a puppy, and has faded to a creamy golden color. She still has color, she isn't all white, but she isn't dark like a collie either. And she is brindle, she has black hairs running all thru the brindle/sable coloring in her coat-


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I have met Carol and one of her dogs. She is member of the Carolina Havanese Club too. I also thought there was a forum member that got a puppy from her as well. I have saw very few reds that have kept any color but you know how I feel picking any dog based on color


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## Pixiesmom (Jul 31, 2008)

MopTop Havanese said:


> Yes, most brindles fade as much as sables.
> My Heidi looked like a St. Bernard as a puppy, and has faded to a creamy golden color. She still has color, she isn't all white, but she isn't dark like a collie either. And she is brindle, she has black hairs running all thru the brindle/sable coloring in her coat-


Wow Katie-what a change!! I keep thinking about Lina's Kubrick. He seems to retain his color, which is so unique. They are truly all different.


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## hyindc (Apr 21, 2008)

Good breeders, who typically are very much aware of the terminology, will refer to a young puppy as "sable" if by the end of the first month they can see lighter hair growing in at the roots. The dark color eventually grows out, although, depending upon the dog, they often retain some of the color in a much lighter shade. 

Brindle, on the other hand, refers to dark (typically black) hairs mixed in with another color. Some sables include a touch of brindle as well (that was the case with our Paco). His dark brown sable grew into a light tannish/golden color. However, he still has a fair amount of individual black hairs mixed in (brindle), which, to us, gives him a complex and very interesting coat. Of course, sometimes a breeder can see no light roots by the time the pup is ready for adoption, and will hazard a guess that the puppy is not a sable and will therefore retain his color. Luke was predicted to be a red havanese, not a red sable. Fortunately, the breeder was correct, and at 18 months old, he is still red. 

Both of our breeders used the terminology correctly. However, while we were shopping around for our puppies, I found several breeders who used the two terms as if they were interchangeable. If your friend wants a havanese that retains its color, she should make sure the breeder is using the word brindle correctly, and that the puppy does NOT appear to the breeder to be a sable.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Well, Kubrick is a brindle and he kept his color well (though he still lightened quite a bit) he still has strands of black running from the root, which I always thought was a sign of brindles - that and the stripes of colors which are necessary. In either case, here he is as a puppy at 4 weeks:










And then 13 weeks:










At 1 year:










And in October at almost 2.5 years:










If you can tell, he has lightened a bit, but that was also because he started getting more and more gold in his body. Whereas before he had it only on his ears/head. It spread to his body making him look lighter, though the dark roots are still there. I'm not sure whether he's a black brindle or a gold brindle, but he's definitely one of those! If you want to read about my wondering about Kubrick's colors, I did post a thread about it back about a year ago: http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=7407&highlight=kubrick+colors

That being said, I don't think picking a dog (especially a Havanese) based on color is a good idea at all... they change so much!


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## Pixiesmom (Jul 31, 2008)

Whatever he is, I've never seen another like Kubrick. 
I'd love to have a copy of him!


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

I'm willing to bet he will lighten up a lot.
If you look at his chest in the 3rd and 4th pictures, you can see that there is some much lighter hair underneath the darker parts.

I think you need to stress to her that it's most important to pick a pup based on personality and knowledge/trust of the breeder. I don't know anything about this breeder but I'm impressed by their contract and buyback policy. They seem pretty genuine.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Kubrick has such a fascinating, beautiful coat!! I love looking at him. Speaking of which, Lina, we could use some more, current photos of your boys! :biggrin1:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ama0722 said:


> I have met Carol and one of her dogs. She is member of the Carolina Havanese Club too. I also thought there was a forum member that got a puppy from her as well. I have saw very few reds that have kept any color but you know how I feel picking any dog based on color


Yep. I agree. But it's not my puppy or my decision. If it were, there would be no question... I'd go back to the Kings. But as long as Carol is a good, reputable breeder too, I'll let her make her own decision.<g>

She's not looking for a dog for performance, she just wants a nice pet and hopefully to do some therapy dog stuff.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

hyindc said:


> If your friend wants a havanese that retains its color, she should make sure the breeder is using the word brindle correctly, and that the puppy does NOT appear to the breeder to be a sable.


There are two pups in the litter, and one is listed as sable, the other brindle. They do look different in the photos, though they are still very young. The parents are very light, though the dam does seem to have some black hairs mixed into her overall light coat. And, of course, the other thing is that with show pix, they are usually taken when the dog is fairly young. I've seen a lot of pix of Havs that have changed dramatically in color after their championship is finished.

But the bottom line is we're more interested in learning what we can about this second breeder. I've already explained to her that the brindle puppy will very likely not look the same as an adult.

Thanks!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lina said:


> Well, Kubrick is a brindle and he kept his color well (though he still lightened quite a bit) he still has strands of black running from the root, which I always thought was a sign of brindles - that and the stripes of colors which are necessary. In either case, here he is as a puppy at 4 weeks:


Kubrick is gorgeous! I mentioned the color issue because I was educating my SIL. What we REALLY want to know is about the breeder.

Thanks!


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

I believe Carol is a member of the Southern Magnolia Havanese Club. Those are adorable puppies and her contract is great. Can your SIL go visit the puppies and see the parents?

Nothing against the breeders but...how can you compare if you've only dealt with one breeder? Seems best that she go visit.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

galaxie said:


> I think you need to stress to her that it's most important to pick a pup based on personality and knowledge/trust of the breeder. I don't know anything about this breeder but I'm impressed by their contract and buyback policy. They seem pretty genuine.


Yup. Already had that conversation. The question is whether you go with a breeder that you KNOW produces superior dogs, where you've met all the pup's relatives, and trust the breeder to steer you right on the pup's disposition, or do you go with a breeder who looks like they are doing everything right on their website, but you can't find many people with personal experience with them? THAT is the conversation I'm having with her. If it were me, there would be no question... I'd go back to the Kings in a heartbeat. But my SIL doesn't know either breeder personally, so I understand why she wants to check both out. I'm just trying to help her do that.

I have to say that even in continued conversations, the breeder of the brindle pup sounds like she's doing things right... They even have some of the same blood lines that the King's do. If I didn't know the Kings, I probably would have a hard time choosing between the two breeders too.

I can only guide her, I can't make the decision for her. Fortunately, I don't think she'll go too far wrong with either pup based on the info available so far.

And we've come a long way in a week... A week ago she called me from Pick-a-Pup wanting my opinion about a puppy mill Shih tzu. She's learning!


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Karen, have your SIL come to the Fitchburg show this Sat. and she can meet a bunch of breeders and also see some of their dogs. I am in the process of working on #3 and I have been paying lot's of attention to personality of other peoples dog's to get the personality I am looking for.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Scooter's Family said:


> I believe Carol is a member of the Southern Magnolia Havanese Club. Those are adorable puppies and her contract is great. Can your SIL go visit the puppies and see the parents?


She can certainly go down and NOT take a puppy home, but we're not within "visit" distance. We both live in MA. She'll have to fly down to either breeder. I know the Kings' puppy's dam (I don't remember the sire) and she's lovely. All of the King's dogs have lovely temperaments. Her contract is very similar to the Kings'


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Good idea! I'll see if I can talk her into it!


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## imamurph (Apr 15, 2008)

krandall said:


> She can certainly go down and NOT take a puppy home, but we're not within "visit" distance. We both live in MA. She'll have to fly down to either breeder. I know the Kings' puppy's dam (I don't remember the sire) and she's lovely. All of the King's dogs have lovely temperaments. Her contract is very similar to the Kings'


..I think if she goes down, she'll be a goner! How does one not take a puppy home?? ound:


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I don't know Carol well, but I've never heard anything bad about her.

In general, sables have dark tipping and you'll easily see it on the ears. Brindles have dark hairs (black or brown) from root to tip that create bands/stripes. By those litter pictures, the light one is a sable and the darker one is a brindle - probably a black brindle.

Brindle is not a term specific to Havanese and is a coat pattern name that is used in many breeds. There are a lot of brindle Boxers, Boston Terriers, pit bulls, Great Danes, etc. Suzanne McKay helps define them a little more here: http://www.mts.net/~mckay55/rainbow.html A lot of breeders that are not familiar with coat patterns in other breeds use "brindle" incorrectly.

Fading will vary by family lines, but I would think the black or brown hairs of a brindle should hold.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

There are alot of good breeders of havanese....I know you feel Tom is the best of the best because that's where Kodi came from Karen,but most people probably think their breeder is the best too you know? 

I'm not sure why I thought this--but it reminded me of our kids. You know how parents think their kid is thee best at baseball,or football or whatever? This reminds me of that.

I think you should encourage your relative to find a healthy hav puppy with health testing and a breeder she is comfortable with. Everyone falls in love with hav puppies...and she might as well get what makes HER happy..a good breeder,a healthy pup and the color she wants.

I wanted a certain "looking" havanese with the right temperament and healthy. I didn't give up till I had found exactly what I wanted. I look at him everyday and think "you are cute as hell".....he is what makes me happy...and lord knows,when you are cleaning up a poopy butt it helps to be cute! :becky:


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Julie said:


> There are alot of good breeders of havanese....I know you feel Tom is the best of the best because that's where Kodi came from Karen,but most people probably think their breeder is the best too you know?
> 
> I'm not sure why I thought this--but it reminded me of our kids. You know how parents think their kid is thee best at baseball,or football or whatever? This reminds me of that.
> 
> ...


ound: Ain't THAT the truth?! ound:


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## trueblue (Jan 22, 2008)

Julie said:


> I look at him everyday and think "you are cute as hell".....he is what makes me happy...and lord knows,when you are cleaning up a poopy butt it helps to be cute! :becky:


My thoughts exactly!


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

HAHAH SO TRUE!
I just gave Roscoe a poopy bum bath :bathbaby:


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Julie,

Couldn't have put it more succinctly myself. ound: ound: ound:


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## newhavaneselover (Nov 25, 2009)

All I can say is, I thought I did all the work and research looking for a breeder on line. (before I found this sight) Called so many, and when some breeders couldnt even answer the simplest questions i knew they were a back door breeder. One breeder didn't even know what a short haird hav was. When i went to look at the puppies, she answered everything and all the answers was very nice. Anyway, I never knew about this forum until 2 weeks before i was getting Ginger. As I was scrolling thru all the old posts I found one that people were asking about breeders and actually asked about the breeder I got Ginger from. Well made me sick to hear the responses. Now I am paranoid and hopping I did not get a sick puppy from a back yard breeder.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

I'll ask, who is the breeder?

If your heart is set on this puppy then take her to the vet as soon as you bring her home for your peace of mind. There's a site where you can check the health testing of dogs if you can get the name of the parents. I'm not sure what the site is but many others will be able to give you the web address. I believe it's OFFA but I'm not sure of the site.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

newhavaneselover said:


> All I can say is, I thought I did all the work and research looking for a breeder on line. (before I found this sight) Called so many, and when some breeders couldnt even answer the simplest questions i knew they were a back door breeder. One breeder didn't even know what a short haird hav was. When i went to look at the puppies, she answered everything and all the answers was very nice. Anyway, I never knew about this forum until 2 weeks before i was getting Ginger. As I was scrolling thru all the old posts I found one that people were asking about breeders and actually asked about the breeder I got Ginger from. Well made me sick to hear the responses. Now I am paranoid and hopping I did not get a sick puppy from a back yard breeder.


What's done is done. I got duped by Maddie's breeder, too. I was pretty crushed and sickened when I found out, but I am just thankful that she is healthy and happy. You can't go back and change it, but what you can do is try to make sure you get the word out there about this questionable breeder so that other people don't make the same mistake. I know it's frustrating, but don't beat yourself up about it. You live and learn, even though it sucks to know you may not have made the best decision you could


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## newhavaneselover (Nov 25, 2009)

oh i love my puppy. Just what i found out about this breeder made me sick, and scared me to death. The woman name who I got Ginger from was marcie very nice. But when i was reading these posts there was a breeders name was brought up, and I know the minute you read the name you will know who it is, she was located at the same address and phone number of where I got Ginger from. Woman was Donna Roberts shaddy oaks. (she was arrested for animal cruelty.) When i did a search on this name alot of people received bad puppies from her. But from what I see in my little girl, she is a great puppy and i wouldnt trade her for the world.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

^ Yeah, I actually read about her. Pretty shocking, I think she has some animal cruelty charges pending if I'm not mistaken


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

newhavaneselover said:


> oh i love my puppy. Just what i found out about this breeder made me sick, and scared me to death. The woman name who I got Ginger from was marcie very nice. But when i was reading these posts there was a breeders name was brought up, and I know the minute you read the name you will know who it is, she was located at the same address and phone number of where I got Ginger from. Woman was Donna Roberts shaddy oaks. (she was arrested for animal cruelty.) When i did a search on this name alot of people received bad puppies from her. But from what I see in my little girl, she is a great puppy and i wouldn't trade her for the world.


I am so sorry this happened, but always remember you can only do the best you can with the information you have. Did you get any paper work from them with information on the parents?

I also think this is a great opportunity to pass along information for other's that may be researching. I came across this article and if you go to the bottom you will see the name Marci has been used as an alias. All I did was a simple google search on Shady Oaks Havanese and came up with all kinds of not so good information.

http://www.biojobblog.com/tags/oak/

Give Ginger some belly rubs for us, and know that the forum members will always be here to help you with any questions or concerns you may have.


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## imamurph (Apr 15, 2008)

:doh: Geeeez, Leeann..THAT article was down right depressing. Sophie could be a maltese mix...


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

imamurph said:


> :doh: Geeeez, Leeann..THAT article was down right depressing. Sophie could be a maltese mix...


Yes Diane it is but it is so important to me to educate. I myself was very lucky when getting Riley, I knew nothing except I wanted a Havanese. I was lucky to stumble across a breeder who educated me on all the health testing and issues within our breed, I still laugh when I think about her telling me she was sending me soaped pictures of the parents and I didn't question what she was talking about, you can imagine the look on my face when I opened the pictures of two soaped up dogs lol. It could have very easily been me buying from these people.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

That is a frightening read. I feel so blessed that I found this place after deciding against an internet purhase from what I believe to be a less than reputable "breeder." I credit the people here with putting me on the right path to find my sweet baby boys.


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## imamurph (Apr 15, 2008)

I have to say that even though I bought my Australian Shepherds from breeders in show (and they were both AKC) I still was clueless. As a matter of fact, my first Aussie's breeders showed up a few months after I got her and badgered me into showing her.
They gave me a video and a show lead and pressured me into it..Well, I went and made an utter fool of myself! I mean their were children that were showing their dogs that must have started in the ring at 3 years old ..LOL!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

imamurph said:


> ..I think if she goes down, she'll be a goner! How does one not take a puppy home?? ound:


My point exactly.<g>


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Julie said:


> There are alot of good breeders of havanese....I know you feel Tom is the best of the best because that's where Kodi came from Karen,but most people probably think their breeder is the best too you know?


I'm not saying that Tom and Pam are "the best"... only that I know and trust them. I looked for a long time for the right breeder with the right puppy before I bought Kodi. I walked away from a dozen breeders and several puppies before I found the Kings and learned about Kodi's litter. There are other breeders on this forum (or represented on this forum) that if my SIL said she was getting a puppy from them, I would have had no question. I didn't know this particular breeder, so was looking for feedback from people who had personal experience with her; that's all. The few people who know her here seem to think she does a good job, so that's all good. I didn't need help knowing that her web site looked good. But I know from my own search that a breeder's website only tells part of the story.



Julie;305779 I think you should encourage your relative to find a healthy hav puppy with health testing and a breeder she is comfortable with. Everyone falls in love with hav puppies...and she might as well get what makes HER happy..a good breeder said:


> That's _exactly_ what I've been doing EXCEPT that I've had to give her a crash course in what is "acceptable" in a breeder. Remember... a week ago, she was going to buy a puppy mill puppy if I hadn't said nay. She has specifically asked for my advice, and I am trying to get for her the exact same type of information that I wanted when I bought a puppy. So far, the breeder has produced everything we've asked for except for soaps, and those are in process. I just believe in being careful when adding a member to the family for 15 years. I believe in being EXTRA careful when you're spending someone else's money.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

Karen,
You are to be commended for all the help you are giving to your sister in law on this.

I found the forum after beginning to research the breed when I got Murray, my rescued 'halfahav' as we jokingly call him. I know this is the perfect breed for us now, and our next dog will be from a reputable breeder that does all the right things. I just have to wait for the time to be right.

That said, from reading everything on this breeders website and seeing the responses from the people here that know or know of her, I will be looking to get on of their pups. And this is from a gut, purely emotional standpoint, which wouldn't be great if I didn't have some knowledge to back it up. Ya see, they have a Champion named 'Mustang Sally'...the song I had a love/hate relationship with as a teen, and now love...and she is 'Junebug's' daughter...and on my 12th birthday I found a stray on our doorstep and named her Junebug, cuz it was June and she was right against the screen door, just like a Junebug...and, and, and.......anyway...serendipity, eh? Can't wait to hear what their litter due this month brings....:dance:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Well, I'm glad to hear that our research has helped someone else too! As I said from the beginning, each piece of info we've received has made this breeder look like she knows what she's doing; I've just wanted to check her out as thoroughly as I would any breeder I was considering for myself.


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## newhavaneselover (Nov 25, 2009)

Leeann said:


> I am so sorry this happened, but always remember you can only do the best you can with the information you have. Did you get any paper work from them with information on the parents?
> 
> I also think this is a great opportunity to pass along information for other's that may be researching. I came across this article and if you go to the bottom you will see the name Marci has been used as an alias. All I did was a simple google search on Shady Oaks Havanese and came up with all kinds of not so good information.
> 
> ...


It was not called shady oaks Havanese when i found her. Only reason why I put 2 and 2 together was becuase her address was on shady Oaks.


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