# How to get paws white again. Tear stains.



## LUVmyHava (Apr 16, 2019)

We have red clay soil here so Kojo's paws are always red/orange tint. It does not totally go away with baths but groomer seems to get them white. What kind of shampoo will make his paws white again. Kojo also gets dark brown tear stains. Anything to deal with that?


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

LUVmyHava said:


> We have red clay soil here so Kojo's paws are always red/orange tint. It does not totally go away with baths but groomer seems to get them white. What kind of shampoo will make his paws white again. Kojo also gets dark brown tear stains. Anything to deal with that?


Not sure about tear stains. Oliver has sort of a brown mask. It's lightened but I still can't see tear stains. Roxie's black, so same. I've heard this can be difficult to deal with in havs.

As for white paws, how often do you bathe? We don't have clay soil, but his feet do get very dirty. The best thing for it is weekly baths. Use a human loofah and massage really well. Also, there are special shampoos you can use. I've heard Ice on Ice works well.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

There are a few different whitening shampoos and they work in different ways. White on White is the CC one, and it does break down some stains like a regular shampoo but it also brightens the white, and has some bluing agents. It doesn’t get out tear stains for me, but nothing really does. Another one I use is Warren London. It’s really more like a regular, gentle shampoo with brightening agents, and I’ll sometimes lather up just his paws with it if they’re extra dirty.

I’m not completely sure, but I think both Biogroom and Crystal White (I think that’s what it’s called) are enzymatic. Both of those might be better for you to break down dirt, but they weren’t that impressive to me since I don’t have that problem. They have been pretty highly recommended in the past, which is why I tried them. 

I have a pretty light Havanese, but the white is mostly on his stomach, chest, and paws. I only use whitening shampoo (white on white) about every 3rd bath. If he needs a bit of brightening in between I use the Warren London. Those are the only two I liked enough to reorder. 

My guess is it’s really going to be subjective. Depending on what stains you’re trying to remove, coat texture, and how much white is in the coat, it could really make a huge difference in what works for you. I’m sure others will post what they like, but it might save you a lot of trial an error to ask your groomer what she uses.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Also, conditioner often works better to remove dirt and debris. Sort of like how moisturizer can remove mascara better than cleanser.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

LUVmyHava said:


> We have red clay soil here so Kojo's paws are always red/orange tint. It does not totally go away with baths but groomer seems to get them white. What kind of shampoo will make his paws white again. Kojo also gets dark brown tear stains. Anything to deal with that?


Tear stains can be a tough nut to crack. Filtered water helps some dogs, changing food helps others. (Especially avoiding foods containing corn) I found that when Panda had BAD tear stains when she was younger, Proviable DC (a probiotic) helped A LOT. It was recommended by someone else here on the forum, but I can't rememember who. My dogs take another probiotic all the time, and it did nothing for her tear staining. It seems to be something specific about Proviable DC. But it also seems to be a matter of trial and error... different things work on different dogs, and some light colored dogs just ALWAYS have tear stains, no matter how hard their owners try.

As far as the feet are concerned, we sometimes vacation in Nova Scotia and on PEI, which also have red clay. So I feel your pain. ...and white dogs just get dirty. Ice on Ice isn't all that great for staining. You really need a shampoo meant for whitening. I use either BioGroom SuperWhite, or Chris Christensen White on White. IMO, they work ABOUT equally. BioGroom is heavily scented, and CC products a re very lightly scented if that makes a difference to you. I use one or the other of these one my white dog's feet every other bath or so, or if they have been out in the mud.

When mine get really bad, (like up in PEI) I will fill the sink with a few inches of water and enough shampoo to stain the water blue, and then have them soak their feet and bellies in it for about 5 minutes before washing them the rest of the way. You can also just later them up and let them soak that way, but I find they don't get as cold standing in warm water, so they don't object to the procedure. Usually, these products work really well to remove staining and get them really white. And I DO let my guys play in the mud! LOL!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> There are a few different whitening shampoos and they work in different ways. White on White is the CC one, and it does break down some stains like a regular shampoo but it also brightens the white, and has some bluing agents. It doesn't get out tear stains for me, but nothing really does. Another one I use is Warren London. It's really more like a regular, gentle shampoo with brightening agents, and I'll sometimes lather up just his paws with it if they're extra dirty.
> 
> I'm not completely sure, but I think both Biogroom and Crystal White (I think that's what it's called) are enzymatic. Both of those might be better for you to break down dirt, but they weren't that impressive to me since I don't have that problem. They have been pretty highly recommended in the past, which is why I tried them.
> 
> ...


Biogroom is pretty equivalent to CC White on White. Crystal White is the ezymatic one. You have to be REALLY regimented and persistent to get a good result with Crystal White. I know the professional handlers like it, but they are getting paid to prepare dogs for the ring, and often bathe them multiple times a week. For best results, Crystal White has to be heated before application, rubbed into the stained areas, allowe dot sit, THEN the dog washed. And it has to be done often. I never made much headway with it. I've got most of a gallon in the basement if anyone wants it! LOL!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Also, conditioner often works better to remove dirt and debris. Sort of like how moisturizer can remove mascara better than cleanser.


YES!!! when Kodi has come home (seemingly hopelessly matted with plant debris after a walk that has taken us through mud and brush (unplanned and NOT recommended, believe me!!!) I found that floating his coat in a sink full of water and conditioner, and gently combing all the weeds out under water made the job MUCH easier on both of us!!!


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

We swear by Vet Classics Tear Stain Supplement. It's a powder. We got it from our vet.


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## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

I can see I have a lot to learn about grooming my pup! I better order some shampoo before he comes home and make it a weekly ritual.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

For the tear staining, I tried many things when I had white dogs. The staining got alot better after the first year and teething was over. My vet said to wipe the tear area with a wet cotton ball twice a day, purified water. This helped the most of the products I tried and was the safest.
What really made the biggest difference was a course of antibiotics that my best boy had to take when he got sick. Not that vets will do this for cosmetic purposes.
Many years ago, a new supplement came out for tear staining. Several friends with white dogs jumped on it. The dogs developed kidney problems quickly. I tried it after seeing the results the others had for a couple weeks but stopped when the dogs got sick. I am very cautious about any supplements for this reason. I would stick with the water/cotton pad wiping twice a day but I have a black dog now!


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

After a couple of years of experimentation, here is what works for us, it may not work for you because all Havanese are different. PATIENT EXPERIMENTATION IS THE KEY.

- TEAR STAINS We use filtered water only for drinking, both human and thinks he's a human, Ricky Ricardo. We have very hard water in our area. We use a Britta water filter jug purchased at Costco for drinking water. (Ricky prefers his drinking water to be "brain freeze" cold. Go figure.)

We wash Ricky's tear ducts on a DAILY basis with a wash cloth to get all the genurples out. NO MORE TEAR STAINS. We tried Proviable DC and that was a waste of money for tear stains. However we do give Ricky supplements on a daily basis as a topper on his Honest Kitchen food. Nothing gets tear stains out. You have to let the stains grow out and then cut little by little until nothing is left. The key is NEVER let tear stains get a head start. PREVENTION IS THE KEY.

- FUR STAINS The shampoo we use is White on White on a bi-monthly basis. Seems to work well. We use Ice On Ice on a daily basis (very diluted per instructions) but only as an aid to easy, quick brush outs. CONSISTENCY IS THE KEY.

A well maintained Havanese is a bit of extra work, but it produces a well maintained Havanese.

Ricky's Popi


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## LUVmyHava (Apr 16, 2019)

I found a lot info on tear stains on Bichon Friese and poodles. "Poodles and Cocker Spaniels, along with other breeds, are more genetically likely to have imperforate puncta, a condition where the holes near the eyes that drain tears do not properly develop. This causes tears to build up, and the stains are more likely to form." Also, if short hair in eyes, eyes will water excessively.

I suspect Kojo has imperfororate puncta because face below eyes always wet. So changing water, food or adding supplements aren't going to do anything. I can wipe under eyes several times a day but there will still be wetness and staining. He licks his paws quite a bit and they don't stain so clearly nothing in his saliva systemically.

He chews on one toenail all the time. I have checked it many times. It isn't too long or damaged so I don't know why he chews on that one toenail.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

LUVmyHava said:


> I found a lot info on tear stains on Bichon Friese and poodles. "Poodles and Cocker Spaniels, along with other breeds, are more genetically likely to have imperforate puncta, a condition where the holes near the eyes that drain tears do not properly develop. This causes tears to build up, and the stains are more likely to form." Also, if short hair in eyes, eyes will water excessively.
> 
> I suspect Kojo has imperfororate puncta because face below eyes always wet. So changing water, food or adding supplements aren't going to do anything. I can wipe under eyes several times a day but there will still be wetness and staining. He licks his paws quite a bit and they don't stain so clearly nothing in his saliva systemically.
> 
> He chews on one toenail all the time. I have checked it many times. It isn't too long or damaged so I don't know why he chews on that one toenail.


Many things can cause paw licking. However, being in the deep south I assume you live in a super humid climate. If paws are wet very often, this can cause some problems. It is important to keep the paw pads trimmed up and to dry the paws thoroughly. Where I live it is super humid and Mia's paws become sopping wet every day just going out in the dew covered grass. I use a paper towel to dry them when she comes in and sometimes even use the blow dryer. This may not be Kojo's problem but may help.


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## LUVmyHava (Apr 16, 2019)

Could be. He isn't licking paw. He biting on toenail. 

When he goes outside in AM, the grass is really wet from dew. Also, rains a lot so paws get wet a lot. He is due for grooming. Has hair between paw pads which will stay wet. I will make sure groomer trims up paws well. I am changing groomers. The last time I took him, he had razor burns from unnecessary shaving, didn't cut toenails and kept tail hair too long. I think groomer is training a young guy and let him experiment on Kojo. Not cool. So I have recommendation from Vet for new groomer.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

That is so strange about the one toenail. Shadow has one nail that he chews on constantly. I've shown it to the vet, the groomer. No one sees any problem with it. When I'm brushing him and I touch that foot, he gets a strange look on his face, sort of nasty. And twice, he has growled a bit at the groomer when she cuts that nail. Very strange, since he is very sweet on his groomer and behaves perfectly at all times except for that nail. 

I have always gone to groomers where it is one person(the owner) doing the grooming. Only once have I gone to a larger shop and I didn't like it. It was a young, inexperienced groomer that cut my boy's ear. Many years ago. I look for groomers with 20 plus years of experience.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> We wash Ricky's tear ducts on a DAILY basis with a wash cloth to get all the genurples out. NO MORE TEAR STAINS. We tried Proviable DC and that was a waste of money for tear stains. However we do give Ricky supplements on a daily basis as a topper on his Honest Kitchen food. Nothing gets tear stains out. You have to let the stains grow out and then cut little by little until nothing is left. The key is NEVER let tear stains get a head start. PREVENTION IS THE KEY.


Here is a photo we just took of Shama to show you that she has no tear stains. (Earlier I put a link to the supplement we use. Tere, do you happen to recall the name of the supplement that made dogs sick? I would like to look at its ingredients ...)

The discoloration in her facial hair is not tear stains; it is food. The second photo shows what she looks like after eating her canned pumpkin. (And if she didn't have her hair up, the pumpkin would also be in the hair on top of her head!)

I admire those of you who go above and beyond in grooming. We do not wipe Shama's eyes or face AT ALL. That pumpkin will eventually dry up and be combed out! On rare occasion (like going to see family), we'll wash her face if the food stains are bad. She comes in with wet paws from the dewy grass all the time, especially when I get behind on the mowing (which does happen and by now should not come as a surprise to you ...) The only time we towel her off is when she goes out in the pouring rain. (It's cute when we do that, because we swaddle her, and she goes limp. That's the most relaxed she ever is when I hold her! Then after a brief swaddle, she gets to attack the towel ...)

If your dog has long hair, you will not want to cut out tear stained hair. I'm telling you, if you have a puppy whose tear staining is not yet too advanced, get Vet Classics Tear Stain Supplement. It changes the pH balance in the tears so that the yeast cannot grow. We've never noticed genurples in her eyes either! :smile2:


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

It was Angels' Eyes that caused all the problems. I didn't name it because someone might think it was a good idea. Big problems for the Cotons that used it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tere said:


> For the tear staining, I tried many things when I had white dogs. The staining got alot better after the first year and teething was over. My vet said to wipe the tear area with a wet cotton ball twice a day, purified water. This helped the most of the products I tried and was the safest.
> What really made the biggest difference was a course of antibiotics that my best boy had to take when he got sick. Not that vets will do this for cosmetic purposes.
> Many years ago, a new supplement came out for tear staining. Several friends with white dogs jumped on it. The dogs developed kidney problems quickly. I tried it after seeing the results the others had for a couple weeks but stopped when the dogs got sick. I am very cautious about any supplements for this reason. I would stick with the water/cotton pad wiping twice a day but I have a black dog now!


I would agree with that COMPLETELY in terms of "tear stain products", especially those with antibiotics in them. The one I mentioned (Proviable DC) is simply a probiotic, though, meant for digestive health. It wasn't designed to help with tear staining and contains no antibiotics. It just HAPPENS to help with eye staining in some dogs. I did run it by my vet before trying it and she was absolutely fine with it.


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## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

I wrote both these down because Denver has a big issue in one eye. I think it might be an issue with the tear duct, my vet noticed it when we first brought h8m home because that side is always damp. Has anyone had a imperforate puncta corrected? My vet mentioned it’s something that could be potentially fixed but would need to see an ophthalmologist (I mean, he’s already been to a vet dentist....)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Nothing gets tear stains out. You have to let the stains grow out and then cut little by little until nothing is left. The key is NEVER let tear stains get a head start. PREVENTION IS THE KEY.
> Ricky's Popi


Oh! This is a REALLY important point that no one has mentioned!!!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

I personally am skeptical about tear stain products even those they are considered natural. I think we have to be very careful with the proper use of herbs and that they should be used under the guidance of someone who knows what they are doing.

Oregon Grape is one of the main ingredients in VetClassics Tear Stain. I came across a few articles warning that it can harm the kidneys. Just wanted to mention this especially since Shama has kidney disease.

https://www.kidney.org/atoz/content/herbalsupp

Perhaps it is fine but herbs are drugs too as far as I am concerned and it is good to be cautious especially when using something daily.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Very interesting, mudpuppymama! We have a follow-up appointment at the U of MN Veterinary Medical Center next week, so I'll be sure to inquire about the possibility of our Tear Stain Supplement playing a role in whatever Shama has going on. I just never would have dreamed there could be a problem with this product since it was recommended and sold at our vet's office. DH puts an eighth of a teaspoon of the supplement on Shama's food twice a week. DH says that if herbs are drugs (since they change one's body chemistry), then food and water are also drugs ...


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

When I was removing Shama's clip tonight, I noticed it was covered in pumpkin! ( I will clean off that clip!)


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

ShamaMama said:


> Very interesting, mudpuppymama! We have a follow-up appointment at the U of MN Veterinary Medical Center next week, so I'll be sure to inquire about the possibility of our Tear Stain Supplement playing a role in whatever Shama has going on. I just never would have dreamed there could be a problem with this product since it was recommended and sold at our vet's office. DH puts an eighth of a teaspoon of the supplement on Shama's food twice a week. DH says that if herbs are drugs (since they change one's body chemistry), then food and water are also drugs ...


Glad you are getting it checked out. Herbs are awesome but would be great to work with an herbalist to use them properly. They may affect people and dogs differently.

Note that drinking too much water can kill you too...although I would think it would have to be a LOTS!

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-drinking-too-much-water-can-kill/


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

mudpuppymama said:


> ShamaMama said:
> 
> 
> > Very interesting, mudpuppymama! We have a follow-up appointment at the U of MN Veterinary Medical Center next week, so I'll be sure to inquire about the possibility of our Tear Stain Supplement playing a role in whatever Shama has going on. I just never would have dreamed there could be a problem with this product since it was recommended and sold at our vet's office. DH puts an eighth of a teaspoon of the supplement on Shama's food twice a week. DH says that if herbs are drugs (since they change one's body chemistry), then food and water are also drugs ...
> ...


Right. Water loading is common in athletes who chug water too quickly, or in anyone who is drinking water FAST especially if they aren't eating enough with it. It can disrupt the sodium balance in the blood. As far as herbs and supplements go-they are not benign. If herbal medicine is powerful enough to work, it needs to be respected as such. Super mild, homeopathic medicine is 99 percent water and it's not dangerous or effective. Placebo effect, sure. But the scary thing is vitamin and mineral supplements can be overdosed on. When it's in food, it's combined with other things, thus lowering the dosage. You can overdose and die from iron supplements much more quickly than iron rich steak. And many supplements are not regulated by the FDA. So you don't know what you're getting from one bottle to the next. Probiotics can be really helpful but being picky with the brand and content is important.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

The difference between supplements and food that contains that ingredient is concentration. The dose, invariably, makes the poison.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Melissa Woods said:


> Right. Water loading is common in athletes who chug water too quickly, or in anyone who is drinking water FAST especially if they aren't eating enough with it. It can disrupt the sodium balance in the blood. As far as herbs and supplements go-they are not benign. If herbal medicine is powerful enough to work, it needs to be respected as such. Super mild, homeopathic medicine is 99 percent water and it's not dangerous or effective. Placebo effect, sure. But the scary thing is vitamin and mineral supplements can be overdosed on. When it's in food, it's combined with other things, thus lowering the dosage. You can overdose and die from iron supplements much more quickly than iron rich steak. And many supplements are not regulated by the FDA. So you don't know what you're getting from one bottle to the next. Probiotics can be really helpful but being picky with the brand and content is important.


Great points Melissa. Just think of all the recent pet recalls because of too much vitamin D! As far as probiotics go, my system actually works better without them and that is after trying many highly recommended brands.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ShamaMama said:


> When I was removing Shama's clip tonight, I noticed it was covered in pumpkin! ( I will clean off that clip!)


LOL!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

ShamaMama said:


> Here is a photo we just took of Shama to show you that she has no tear stains. (Earlier I put a link to the supplement we use. Tere, do you happen to recall the name of the supplement that made dogs sick? I would like to look at its ingredients ...)
> 
> The discoloration in her facial hair is not tear stains; it is food. The second photo shows what she looks like after eating her canned pumpkin. (And if she didn't have her hair up, the pumpkin would also be in the hair on top of her head!)
> 
> ...


I try to stay on top of face wiping with Mia. One thing I feed is raw eggs...you don't want that drying...turns to concrete!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

ShamaMama said:


> When I was removing Shama's clip tonight, I noticed it was covered in pumpkin! ( I will clean off that clip!)


ShamaMama, your photo of the clip reminds me that after waiting for months because of Covid shipping delays, the clips you recommended finally arrived! Free shipping, though  They are the same size as the clips I used in the past, but they hold twice as much hair, and they aren't as slippery. I'll have to take a picture soon.

Unfortunately, the clips are DS new favorite fidget object while he's watching tv. I put them away on a shelf with my little grooming caddy but he got them out because they're "too fun." I might have to search my bathrooms and junk drawers for old clips for DS to keep these ones safe, because they don't seem to be available at all anymore! I must have ordered them just in time.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> ShamaMama, your photo of the clip reminds me that after waiting for months because of Covid shipping delays, the clips you recommended finally arrived!


And I forgot to tell YOU that I got the bands YOU like, and I LOVE them. They have become Panda's every day pony tail holders. They are soft, don't break her hair, but stay in!!! They make her pony stand up more than I love, but the fact that they stay in and don't break hair makes the trade off worth it.

...And they come in PINK!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

ShamaMama said:


> Very interesting, mudpuppymama! We have a follow-up appointment at the U of MN Veterinary Medical Center next week, so I'll be sure to inquire about the possibility of our Tear Stain Supplement playing a role in whatever Shama has going on. I just never would have dreamed there could be a problem with this product since it was recommended and sold at our vet's office. DH puts an eighth of a teaspoon of the supplement on Shama's food twice a week. DH says that if herbs are drugs (since they change one's body chemistry), then food and water are also drugs ...


It is really unlikely that the ingredients in the supplement at such low doses actually caused the kidney damage. Many things that are safe for a healthy pet (or human) can cause problems when there are underlying conditions, but since you didn't know, it makes sense your vet would make that recommendation at the time. It's when kidneys are already damaged that these things can be dangerous, so I'm sure when you're visiting the specialist you can get more information about what to avoid.

As others have already said, the problem is that herbals are not regulated in the same way. It doesn't mean they can't be useful, it's just important to be cautious I think. With DS's kidney, we have to run every single vitamin or supplement, including small additives in beverages, by his doctors. Tylenol, which has been in the news lately, is still far safer in many ways than some herbals when used appropriately, simply because data is available, and it has to meet certain standards. It doesn't mean it's safe to use it every day or in every circumstance, it's just easier to get reliable information to make make decisions about when to use it.


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