# Why do they say dogs don't remember?



## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I always read, never to reprimand a dog for having an accident after the fact. This video proves they remember.....right? The guilty dog is even squinting her eyes and won't look at the owner. That's always a dead giveaway! I just love this video


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## whimsy (Apr 3, 2010)

omg that is just the funniest darn thing ever!! What a cute group. Love it!!!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Actually Linda the so called guilty look is a myth. here's an article. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090611065839.htm


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

My Lhasa always acts like that if anyone has an accident in the house and he will slink out the dog door and sit on the porch until its all cleaned up. The funny thing is I just clean it up, I don't say anything unless I catch someone in the act.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Dave,
This was posted in hopes you would explain it.....Thanks I knew you'd come through!


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## Jplatthy (Jan 16, 2011)

My collie would be at the door waiting for me when I came home from work unless he had an accident...then he would be in his crate with his back to the opening............


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

lfung5 said:


> Dave,
> This was posted in hopes you would explain it.....Thanks I knew you'd come through!


LOL Linda, actually this guilt topic in general is often hotly debated. On other forums, I've heard good points on both sides. What the dog is usually reacting to is the human body language and voice. It's not that dogs don't remember things, it's more that they don't connect them when there's a time gap. Here's another great article by my friend from Ireland.

Although you may think your dog may feel GUILT , it's not what you think. Here's an article from APDT Ireland, followed by a link to a research article.

Pups and dogs are completely incapable of making a link between something they did a few seconds/minutes/hours ago, and why you're annoyed now. Picture the scene: pup is left alone in the kitchen. He needs to go to the toilet, so he squats and pees on the floor. A minute later, his owner comes in, sees the pee, scowls at the pup, then puts him out in the garden alone for half an hour. We might think that this is teaching the pup a good lesson, but let's look at what's actually happening.

Pup feels the need to pee. So he pees. Nothing wrong with that, we all do it! Owner walks back into room, and seems annoyed. In fact, they have "that" face on that means pup is going to get pegged out into the garden. Pup hates being left alone in the garden, and starts to act submissively, trying to appease the owner. Owner points at puddle on floor. Pup has no idea why. He neither speaks English, or is capable of making the connection between the puddle and himself. Pup bows his head some more, looking doleful, sad and&#8230; GUILTY! "Aha!" says the owner, "he KNOWS he's done wrong!" No, he doesn't. What you're looking at is canine appeasement signals. He is trying to calm you down, but remember that he has NO IDEA WHY YOU'RE ANGRY IN THE FIRST PLACE! If you don't believe me, try this: walk into the room, and find your pup doing something "good". Stride over to him and talk to him in a scolding voice. Watch those same signals appear: lip-licking, ears down, head bowed, even turning over to show you his tummy. It is clear that the pup is not feeling guilt. Why should he feel guilty for doing something good? No, I'm afraid that it's time we accepted that dogs cannot feel guilt. That seems to be a purely human emotion! And we are horribly mistaken if we think that our scolding the pup is teaching him anything other than to be a bit frightened of us sometimes, especially when we have "that" face on!
And for the research article http://www.livescience.com/animals/0...ilty-dogs.html and another linked article 
In his 1996 book Good Natured, ethologist Frans de Waal discusses an experiment on guilt and reprimands conducted on a female Siberian husky. The dog had the habit of shredding newspapers, and when her owner returned home to find the shredded papers and scold her she would act guilty. However, when the owner himself shredded the papers without the dog's knowledge, the dog "acted just as 'guilty' as when she herself had created the mess." De Waal concludes that the "guilt" displayed by dogs is not true guilt but rather the anticipation of the behavior of an angry superior in a given situation.[3]


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Thanks Dave. I'm just trying to figure out why only one dog in the video looks so guilty. I understand the articles, but it really does look like all the poodles understand what she is saying The 2 even look like they are ratting her out!!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

lfung5 said:


> Thanks Dave. I'm just trying to figure out why only one dog in the video looks so guilty. I understand the articles, but it really does look like all the poodles understand what she is saying The 2 even look like they are ratting her out!!


Chances are, that is the dog that has been getting in trouble recently. She's learned her mom's body language and tone of voice. We sometimes don't realize how good they are at sensing our emotions. Just the fact that this was videotaped shows that it was possibly anticipated and "experienced" before if you know what I mean.


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## LeighaMason (Dec 16, 2010)

But it does give a new meaning to "tattle tails'.ound:ound:


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## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

Well I'm not so sure about this guilt thing because the other day DH and I were sitting down after Sunday lunch, when Nellie literally tiptoed in with her tail between her legs with such a guilty look on her face[we had never seen her look like that before]anyway we both laughed and wondered what on earth she had been up to,when a couple of minutes later she sneaked out of the room,so we followed her,and there she was in our bedroom sitting by some paper she had shredded earlier, she had taken the letter of the table at the end of our bed,not from the pile of paper under the bed that is left for the pups to shred!Somehow she seemed to know she shouldn't have taken the paper.We have never got cross with her about shredding,but she has heard me say to Dizzie,in a matter of fact way something like",Oh Dizzie what have you been up to,look at all this mess".The only time I have ever raised my voice to her is when she is about to eat poop!and then I just say" leave it", in a firm voice.And we are the same with Dizzie.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I know. I was thinking that too Dave.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

clare said:


> Well I'm not so sure about this guilt thing because the other day DH and I were sitting down after Sunday lunch, when Nellie literally tiptoed in with her tail between her legs with such a guilty look on her face[we had never seen her look like that before]anyway we both laughed and wondered what on earth she had been up to,when a couple of minutes later she sneaked out of the room,so we followed her,and there she was in our bedroom sitting by some paper she had shredded earlier, she had taken the letter of the table at the end of our bed,not from the pile of paper under the bed that is left for the pups to shred!Somehow she seemed to know she shouldn't have taken the paper.We have never got cross with her about shredding,but she has heard me say to Dizzie,in a matter of fact way something like",Oh Dizzie what have you been up to,look at all this mess".The only time I have ever raised my voice to her is when she is about to eat poop!and then I just say" leave it", in a firm voice.And we are the same with Dizzie.


This is a good point! You notice her behavior before you found out what she was up to. Dave?

This makes me think about stuff I read saying, dogs can't see TV. I know my Freddie can see TV. If the sound is down and a dog walks across the sceen, he goes crazy and runs up to the Tv. Even if a person comes on TV holding a dog, he reacts. He wil not react to anything else. Bella can see the computer screen and loves to watch newborn puppies. Scudder sees nothing
:focus:


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

clare said:


> Well I'm not so sure about this guilt thing because the other day DH and I were sitting down after Sunday lunch, when Nellie literally tiptoed in with her tail between her legs with such a guilty look on her face[we had never seen her look like that before]anyway we both laughed and wondered what on earth she had been up to,when a couple of minutes later she sneaked out of the room,so we followed her,and there she was in our bedroom sitting by some paper she had shredded earlier, she had taken the letter of the table at the end of our bed,not from the pile of paper under the bed that is left for the pups to shred!Somehow she seemed to know she shouldn't have taken the paper.We have never got cross with her about shredding,but she has heard me say to Dizzie,in a matter of fact way something like",Oh Dizzie what have you been up to,look at all this mess".The only time I have ever raised my voice to her is when she is about to eat poop!and then I just say" leave it", in a firm voice.And we are the same with Dizzie.


 In your example Gigi, Nellie probably has had some previous experience with this type of event. Dogs learn through classical conditioning. They form an association of one thing happening in the prescence of another. The dog doesn't need to see body postures and/or hear a "stern voice" to have a classical association that will trigger appeasement gestures. If Nellie had never been reprimanded in any way with regards to something ,she certainly wouldn't need to feel "guilty" about it. This is probably an association with paper shredding and your presence that resulted in the behavior. To say that she felt guilty is stretching it.
All living creatures with a brain stem, learn either by classical conditioning or operant conditioning. But here is a definition of classical conditioning. 
Classical conditioning is a process in which an animal learns to associate one event that comes immediately after another event. The animal does not have to do anything in order for this association to take place.

Classical conditioning was discovered by the Russian scientist Pavlov. In his lab, Pavlov brought food to dogs. When the food was shown to the dogs, they began salivating. Then, Pavlov preceded the food with a ring of a bell. He rang the bell and immediately brought the food. He repeated it many times. Bell ring, show food, dog salivates, and again and again.

Now, here's the cool part. Pavlov now decided to ring the bell without bringing the food. He rung the bell, DID NOT bring the food, and&#8230;&#8230;guess what - the dogs still salivated.

What happened? The dog has learned the association between the bell and the food. Since the bell was rung, the food must be coming - hence, saliva
Like Ian Dunbar says..."Operant Conditioning Rocks! But&#8230;
Classical Conditioning Rules!"


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

lfung5 said:


> This is a good point! You notice her behavior before you found out what she was up to. Dave?
> 
> This makes me think about stuff I read saying, dogs can't see TV. I know my Freddie can see TV. If the sound is down and a dog walks across the sceen, he goes crazy and runs up to the Tv. Even if a person comes on TV holding a dog, he reacts. He wil not react to anything else. Bella can see the computer screen and loves to watch newborn puppies. Scudder sees nothing
> :focus:


yeah Linda ,whoever it was that said dogs can't see another dog on tv. either hasn't had a dog or hasn't had a tv. ound:


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