# Laproscopic Spay/Partial Hysterectomy



## Den&Barb (Dec 6, 2013)

Well after searching for a place that performs this in my area, I found one quite close. Problem is, the cost. About $2500.00:jaw:
Being retired and on a fixed income, this will not be possible, but I feel guilty. My wife thinks I'm putting to much thought into this. I don't know. If we were rolling in dough, I wouldn't give it a 2nd thought. Oh well looks like Ginger will have to suffer through the regular spay surgery, since it will only be about $400.00, although I have found a clinic that does them for about $100.00. Probably vet students supervised by a vet. It's still a ways off. Going to wait till she is at least a year old.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Den&Barb said:


> Well after searching for a place that performs this in my area, I found one quite close. Problem is, the cost. About $2500.00:jaw:
> Being retired and on a fixed income, this will not be possible, but I feel guilty. My wife thinks I'm putting to much thought into this. I don't know. If we were rolling in dough, I wouldn't give it a 2nd thought. Oh well looks like Ginger will have to suffer through the regular spay surgery, since it will only be about $400.00, although I have found a clinic that does them for about $100.00. Probably vet students supervised by a vet. It's still a ways off. Going to wait till she is at least a year old.


OMG!!! I know it's more expensive than a traditional spay around here too, but not THAT much more expensive. I'm not sure I could justify that bill either.

Speaking of with&#8230; for TAHT price, is there somewhere not TOO far away that you could travel to and have it done? Even if it meant a night or two in a hotel? Sounds like it would STILL be a lot cheaper than that!!!


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

My 2 cents:

You should NOT feel guilty that laparoscopic ovariohysterectomy is cost prohibitive. I have read research articles about it and LOVH postoperative pain scores are less; however, surgical time and complication rates are greater than with traditional spay. As well, not many vets are trained in laparoscopic surgery or own the expensive equipment required for this type of procedure, which is why the cost is greater for pet owners (assuming you can find a vet to do it in your area). Pretty much, equipment cost and necessity for more than 1 surgeon tends to limit its usefulness in small animal practices.

Please don't hesitate to proceed with a traditional spay for your precious Ginger.

-Jeanne-


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

MarinaGirl said:


> My 2 cents:
> 
> You should NOT feel guilty that laparoscopic ovariohysterectomy is cost prohibitive. I have read research articles about it and LOVH postoperative pain scores are less; however, surgical time and complication rates are greater than with traditional spay. As well, not many vets are trained in laparoscopic surgery or own the expensive equipment required for this type of procedure, which is why the cost is greater for pet owners (assuming you can find a vet to do it in your area). Pretty much, equipment cost and necessity for more than 1 surgeon tends to limit its usefulness in small animal practices.
> 
> ...


I've done a lot of research into laparoscopic ovariectomy, and you are right, Jeanne, there is a high instance of post surgery complications but based on levels of experience of the surgeon concerned - it is extremely variable and dependent on experience. It's absolutely essential to find a vet who has done a considerable number of these procedures, and that's not easy. I am in the UK, where I believe it is more common than in the States - Europe generally is more keen on this way of doing things, so has more qualified people with more experience, and the cost is less prohibitive. Going the traditional route is what my own vet advocates unless a really experienced surgeon can be found. So go for it, Den & Barb, Ginger will be fine. Keep us posted, and please, please don't feel another moment's guilt!!


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## Deacon Blues (Nov 22, 2013)

As high as it is $2500 is not a terrible price for a LOVH. I was quoted $2800-3200 for the surgery, including blood panels and meds, by the one facility that can do it in the Seattle area. 

You might consider what I'll call a 'hybrid' procedure; an open (non-laparoscopic) spay where the ovaries are left in. 

If you're on a fixed income your county may provide spay vouchers. When I bought Rory's license there was a section on the brochure that mentioned that for our county.

I'm trying to locate a surgeon that will do a tubal ligation and it looks like we'll have to travel to Canada for that. 

But don't feel guilty; you do what you can do. As Jeanne said there are trade-offs regarding outcomes.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Deacon Blues said:


> As high as it is $2500 is not a terrible price for a LOVH. I was quoted $2800-3200 for the surgery, including blood panels and meds, by the one facility that can do it in the Seattle area.
> 
> You might consider what I'll call a 'hybrid' procedure; an open (non-laparoscopic) spay where the ovaries are left in.
> 
> ...


As I understood it, it's the ovaries that are removed, and the uterus is left (in an ovariectomy, rather than a full hysterectomy); this removes all the potential risks of pyometra, mammary cancer and whatever else, and is a much smaller, less invasive operation.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> As I understood it, it's the ovaries that are removed, and the uterus is left (in an ovariectomy, rather than a full hysterectomy); this removes all the potential risks of pyometra, mammary cancer and whatever else, and is a much smaller, less invasive operation.


That is more commonly done, but there is at least one vet who is pushing to leave at least some sex hormone producing tissue in the dog. The reason for this is a recent study that showed that neutered Golden Retrievers (particularly those neutered before one year, but the rate is higher even for those neutered at a later age) have a HUGE increase in a number of cancers that are much less curable than mammary or testicular cancers. They also have a much higher incidence of CCL ruptures, and the males have a higher incidence of hip dysplasia.

The problem is, the study ONLY looks at Goldens, and only between the ages of, if I remember correctly, 1-8 years. So we don't know for sure whether this holds true for other breeds, or what the numbers would look like with older dogs included. Still, it is some sobering information...

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dv...st-cont/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/829255

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dv...arch-ex/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/831269

and another one I haven't read yet...

http://www.doglistener.co.uk/neutering_definitive


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> That is more commonly done, but there is at least one vet who is pushing to leave at least some sex hormone producing tissue in the dog. The reason for this is a recent study that showed that neutered Golden Retrievers (particularly those neutered before one year, but the rate is higher even for those neutered at a later age) have a HUGE increase in a number of cancers that are much less curable than mammary or testicular cancers. They also have a much higher incidence of CCL ruptures, and the males have a higher incidence of hip dysplasia.
> The problem is, the study ONLY looks at Goldens, and only between the ages of, if I remember correctly, 1-8 years. So we don't know for sure whether this holds true for other breeds, or what the numbers would look like with older dogs included. Still, it is some sobering information&#8230;"]
> 
> What bothers me is that vets so often treat this topic as if it is simple, and it is NOT! That's really interesting about the Goldens; different breeds are certainly prone to different problems, obviously, but seem to get lumped together often, in the advice you get from vets. They look at one piece of evidence, such as the mammary cancer stats, but ignore the rest, such as the damage of removing certain hormones before the dog reaches maturity, or the potential for causing other problems down the line. In the end, it seems to me that there is more intelligent discussion on a forum like this than one can have in the veterinary surgery. If you don't do your own research, alongside others who want the best for their dogs too, you are at the mercy of as vague and anecdotal a response from your vet as from any other individual, but with the added complication of vets thinking they know everything and certainly know better than you do.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> What bothers me is that vets so often treat this topic as if it is simple, and it is NOT! That's really interesting about the Goldens; different breeds are certainly prone to different problems, obviously, but seem to get lumped together often, in the advice you get from vets. They look at one piece of evidence, such as the mammary cancer stats, but ignore the rest, such as the damage of removing certain hormones before the dog reaches maturity, or the potential for causing other problems down the line. In the end, it seems to me that there is more intelligent discussion on a forum like this than one can have in the veterinary surgery. If you don't do your own research, alongside others who want the best for their dogs too, you are at the mercy of as vague and anecdotal a response from your vet as from any other individual, but with the added complication of vets thinking they know everything and certainly know better than you do.


Actually, that's NOT what I got out of these article. I did not get the feeling they were recommending across the board not neutering, or even LATE neutering. They were saying that it shouldn't be across the board in the other direction EITHER> That, instead, it should be decided, on a case-by-case basis between the veterinarian and the owner, what (if any) is the best procedure AND the best timing for each individual dog.

That's how I take it, anyway. And at this time, (when I don't even HAVE a puppy! ) I THINK what I'd do would be delay neutering until the dog was completely physically mature, and then, in the case of a girl, go for laproscopis ovarectomy only. (which is done regularly and successfully where I live) BUT&#8230; I reserve the right to change my mind when said puppy actually arrives!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> Actually, that's NOT what I got out of these article. I did not get the feeling they were recommending across the board not neutering, or even LATE neutering. They were saying that it shouldn't be across the board in the other direction EITHER> That, instead, it should be decided, on a case-by-case basis between the veterinarian and the owner, what (if any) is the best procedure AND the best timing for each individual dog.
> 
> That's how I take it, anyway. And at this time, (when I don't even HAVE a puppy! ) I THINK what I'd do would be delay neutering until the dog was completely physically mature, and then, in the case of a girl, go for laproscopis ovarectomy only. (which is done regularly and successfully where I live) BUT&#8230; I reserve the right to change my mind when said puppy actually arrives!


sorry, Karen - I should have made clear that I hadn't read the articles yet - rush rush rush! - this comment was based on previous experience with my own vet, not on anything contained in the articles you'd posted which I shall now read!!

"Said puppy"????? Are we contemplating a puppy, Karen???? And, by the by, your plan is exactly what I am thinking of for Cuba, who is just this last day or so beginning to show signs of her first season onset&#8230;.my little girl!!


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## Den&Barb (Dec 6, 2013)

From what I have read so far, there are 5 ways to go.
1. Leave intact
2. Full spay
3. Removal of just the ovaries (Few places that perform and expensive)
4. Removal of just the uterus (Even fewer and expensive)
5. Tubal ligation (Even fewer and expensive)


To me #5 seems like it makes the most sense, but just try and find that service. Next to impossible.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lalla said:


> sorry, Karen - I should have made clear that I hadn't read the articles yet - rush rush rush! - this comment was based on previous experience with my own vet, not on anything contained in the articles you'd posted which I shall now read!!
> 
> "Said puppy"????? Are we contemplating a puppy, Karen???? And, by the by, your plan is exactly what I am thinking of for Cuba, who is just this last day or so beginning to show signs of her first season onset&#8230;.my little girl!!


Oh, I'll eventually get another puppy.  But it has to be JUST the right puppy, and I'm not quite ready yet. More important, DAVE isn't CLOSE to ready yet. I'm still wearing him down! :laugh:


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> Oh, I'll eventually get another puppy.  But it has to be JUST the right puppy, and I'm not quite ready yet. More important, DAVE isn't CLOSE to ready yet. I'm still wearing him down! :laugh:


I let the puppy do the wearing down with my husband - worked a treat; I just made the whole thing a fait accompli - actually brought Cuba home when my husband was in the States, sneaky or what!! He had never, in actual fact, put up any resistance - he leaves these major decisions entirely to me - but I don't think he thought I'd go ahead; nor did I, actually - I never thought I'd get as lucky as I did, time-wise; I got Cuba because of a cancellation - my breeder got fed up with the people who'd said they wanted her not replying to emails and not coming to see her and generally not instilling confidence that they were going to be good owners. So it all happened rather suddenly, oh happy day!! Richard (my husband) is now besotted with her.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Den&Barb said:


> From what I have read so far, there are 5 ways to go.
> 1. Leave intact
> 2. Full spay
> 3. Removal of just the ovaries (Few places that perform and expensive)
> ...


I'd want to read some statistics on pyo with this option. They've shown that dogs with their ovaries demoed, even with the uterus intact, don't get pyo. But if it's the hormones that cause this, I would think you'd still run that wrist with a tubal ligation. With a small breed dog that is closely supervised, as mine is, I also am not sure there's any huge benefit. They will still have hormonal urges, just like an intact dog. The only benefit would be if they DID get bred, they couldn't get pregnant. I'm pretty confident that even if I and a fully intact bitch or dog, I could prevent them being bred. It would be work, but I could do it.

But again, I think this is a decision that has to be made, with careful thought, by each owner for their own animal.


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

Found this online from Dr. Becker:

*Is It Safe to Leave the Uterus Behind?*

Yes it is.

However, there are still plenty of veterinarians who continue to warn pet owners of the dangers of uterine infection and uterine cancer.

To be blunt, this is nonsense.

Uterine disease in dogs whose ovaries have been removed is almost nonexistent. The disease called pyometra, which is pus in the uterus, is the most common uterine problem in intact dogs. It is the result of the influence of the hormone progesterone, produced by the ovaries.

When the ovaries are removed, hormone production stops and it becomes impossible for pyometra to occur naturally.

Malignant uterine tumors in dogs with or without ovaries are an extremely rare occurrence at 0.003 percent of all canine tumors.


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## Deacon Blues (Nov 22, 2013)

Lalla said:


> As I understood it, it's the ovaries that are removed, and the uterus is left (in an ovariectomy, rather than a full hysterectomy); this removes all the potential risks of pyometra, mammary cancer and whatever else, and is a much smaller, less invasive operation.


Yes - I was rushing - the _ovaries_ are removed, the uterus remains.


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## Den&Barb (Dec 6, 2013)

Actually, I think #1 makes the most sense (leave intact), of course depending on ones circumstances of supervision and animals health. Still, will make decision in about 6 months from now. I have had dogs in the past both ways, spayed and intact. Healthwise, they all lived a long healthy life even with grocery store canned and kibble food. But now I am better educated on the subject, but circumstances including finances may have to come into play.:fear:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

MarinaGirl said:


> Found this online from Dr. Becker:
> 
> *Is It Safe to Leave the Uterus Behind?*
> 
> ...


Which is exactly why I would want an ovarectomy, AFTER my girl was fully mature, not a full spay. My understanding is there is also much less chance of spay incontinence with this procedure.


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## Deacon Blues (Nov 22, 2013)

Den&Barb said:


> Actually, I think #1 makes the most sense (leave intact), of course depending on ones circumstances of supervision and animals health.


There's definitely a school of thought that supports that. I'm certain I could manage the "chastity" part of it. I don't know if I could stomach the blood and smell.

Does anyone know; are Havanese heat cycles messy?


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Deacon Blues said:


> There's definitely a school of thought that supports that. I'm certain I could manage the "chastity" part of it. I don't know if I could stomach the blood and smell.
> 
> Does anyone know; are Havanese heat cycles messy?


Cuba started her first season today; so far there is no mess - she's doing a lot of licking and is bleeding quite a bit but it certainly doesn't seem to be a problem so far, and there is absolutely no smell that I can detect. Tycho, my neutered male Coton, is more interested in her than usual and sniffs her from time to time, so is obviously aware that there's something going on. Perhaps I'll start a new 'progress report' thread, although Im sure there have been plenty of other posts on this topic in the past. Still, maybe a Cuba's First Season Diary might be of interest?


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## Deacon Blues (Nov 22, 2013)

*Cuba's First Season Diary*



Lalla said:


> Perhaps I'll start a new 'progress report' thread, although I'm sure there have been plenty of other posts on this topic in the past. Still, maybe a Cuba's First Season Diary might be of interest?


Yes please, to me it would be very interesting and educational.


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## Den&Barb (Dec 6, 2013)

I 2nd the diary. Would like to know how it goes, Ginger being 4 months behind Cuba


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Deacon Blues said:


> There's definitely a school of thought that supports that. I'm certain I could manage the "chastity" part of it. I don't know if I could stomach the blood and smell.
> 
> Does anyone know; are Havanese heat cycles messy?


Most of the people I know with intact females, the hard par tis KNOWING they're in season if they don't have "the boys" around to tell them. Most seem to clean up after themselves very well.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

krandall said:


> Most of the people I know with intact females, the hard par tis KNOWING they're in season if they don't have "the boys" around to tell them. Most seem to clean up after themselves very well.


From very limited experience - my first Coton, Pamba, and now two days-worth with Cuba - it hardly impacts at all other than the having to be super vigilant if out and about; Pamba had all sorts of problems that probably manifested themselves early on with a season followed by another one three months later. And then again three or four months after that; later, when she got ill, we eventually spayed her in an attempt to change the whole climate of the endocrine system in the faint hopes that it might have some effect on the disease, but it didn't. Anyway. I'm lucky in that I have quite a large garden here in the middle of Oxford (big enough to have a Sequoiadendron giganteum in it, if you please - the Victorians did some crazy planting!!) so I tend to do a lot of exercise with the dogs in the garden, where at least I know they'll be safe if they are in season.


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## Den&Barb (Dec 6, 2013)

What do you do indoors to keep from getting drips all over, do you use one of those pad things or diapers or potty pants?
About your tree, didn't know they existed anywhere but in the western Sierra Nevada mountains of California.


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Den&Barb said:


> What do you do indoors to keep from getting drips all over, do you use one of those pad things or diapers or potty pants?
> About your tree, didn't know they existed anywhere but in the western Sierra Nevada mountains of California.


I am just leaving it to Cuba to keep clean; so far no problem at all, it remains to be seen whether or not it will get unmanageably heavy; I don't fancy dressing her up in anything. If the worst came to the worst I'd keep her fenced in the kitchen and sort of 'conservatory' rooms that are tile-floored and without soft furniture, but there's no difficulty yet.

Re the tree, yes, Victorian landscapers were fond of the Wellingtonia, there are quite a few in Oxford; ours was planted when our house was built in 1872, it is marked on the original plans. I love it, but it is clearly not a sensible tree to have in a city garden!! There's a vast Scots pine in the other corner, so we are lucky to have two spectacular trees in what is large for an urban garden, but nevertheless doesn't really warrant such Brobdingnagian planting!!


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## Lalla (Jul 30, 2013)

Just posted this link under Neutering/Zeutering but thought I'd do so here, too; really interesting:

http://www.thedogdaily.com/health/safety/dog_spaying/index.html#axzz2s9jc6KD


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