# Chico Insulted by Vet!



## deejay (Aug 19, 2008)

Chico received his shots and check up today. The good news is that he's very healthy, beautiful teeth and at twelve pounds , the perfect weight. The bad news was, when I said the only problem with him is uncertain potty training, is that she said she had three havanese in lately and that pooping and peeing in the house was the main complaint. She thought they were bred for their temprament and good looks, rather than intelligence. I laughed and agreed. We tried a dog IQ test on him last week and he didn't do so well. On the plus side he is loving, playful and gets along with our rather nasty toy poodle.


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## DorothyS (Aug 11, 2009)

I beg to differ. I think Havanese are very intelligent. They can learn all sorts of tricks, and were used as circus dogs in Europe. BUT, they are not Border Collies (thank goodness!).


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## Tritia (Nov 17, 2007)

we lovingly say that Cooper is as dumb as a box of rocks


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

My guys are smart too and completely potty trained. The only thing that Fred did about a year ago, he tried to mark in someone's house. The lady told me lots of dogs had accidents in her house, so i think he thought it was ok! I don't seem to have that problem anymore.

I really think if you get your dog as a pup and he/she isn't housebreaking, it's something you're doing wrong. Hope that doesn't offend anyone.


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## Renee (Mar 27, 2008)

No offense, but I think "uncertain potty training" goes back to whoever is training them.
I blame myself COMPLETELY for Miley not being potty trained right away. Once I started implementing various techniques from the pros like Tom King, she got it.
I often say she is too smart for her own good.
So no, I don't agree that Havanese are not intelligent.
Just my 2 cents...


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

As with any toy breed, the potty training is dependent on the consistency of the owner. It doesn't have a lot to do with the "intelligence" of the dog, but maybe the diligence of the human.

In my opinion, too many people expect them to catch on in a couple of days, but they probably wouldn't expect that of a toddler in their home. Oddly enough, I've been fortunate to have a new puppy in my home for only two days and he holds it until he goes outside consistently so far. I know this is unusual, but I also know that he is depending on my routine right now too.


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## Rita Nelson (Jul 13, 2009)

DH and I think our Hav, Tucker, is very smart. He has figured out things that amazed us and he's outsmarted us several times. As far as potty training goes, he'll be 8 mos. on 12/4 and hasn't peed in the house since Aug. then it was on his pee-pad. DH and I are retired and have the time necessary to make sure he was taken out every 30 - 45 min. at first then gradually lengthening the time as he got older. At 5 mos. he started jumping up on the door when he needed to go out. We feel very fortunate that he was easy to potty train.


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## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

I would say that Biscuit isn't the brightest bulb, but has been flawlessly housebroken since 4 mos. Whereas Heath is super smart, and we have been entirely consistent with him (we are both home all day) , and yet he still isn't reliable. And we watch his every move like a hawk and his freedom is still restricted. 

So my experience makes no sense.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Both my guys are completely potty trained, and it took Lincoln until he was 5 mos. old to be consistent but it took Scout close to 1 year. Scout had lots of setbacks (like being neutered, having to wear a cone so he couldn't get out the dog door, etc.) and just getting praised for pottying outside wasn't enough of an incentive for his "I'd rather do it inside where it's warm" personality.

Anyway, it took a lot of consistent effort 24/7 with both of them. I literally watched them every single second watching for that elusive "I'm gonna go now" body language, restricted their "free" roaming area and gradually gave them more access to more parts of the house as they became more reliable, etc.

It really was exhausting - I felt like I had an incontinent infant living with me for months. This crosses my mind every time I think about getting a third! But now I'm glad I put out the effort up front. My feeling is that it is easier to train them from the beginning than trying to retrain a dog that has already developed some bad habits. It just seemed like while one successful potty outside was 1 step forward, one accident was equivalent to 10 steps backward vs. just 1 step backward in the training process.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Personally, I take great offense to that comment! My dogs are very smart, in fact if you tell Lily to go outside and get the toy that Logan brought out and bring it in, she will do it. That is pretty smart to me!! 

Not only have my three potty trained with no problems, but all my fosters were immediately put on our potty schedule and did fine. 

I have never heard of a doggy IQ test.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Havtahava said:


> As with any toy breed, the potty training is dependent on the consistency of the owner. It doesn't have a lot to do with the "intelligence" of the dog, but maybe the diligence of the human.
> 
> In my opinion, too many people expect them to catch on in a couple of days, but they probably wouldn't expect that of a toddler in their home. Oddly enough, I've been fortunate to have a new puppy in my home for only two days and he holds it until he goes outside consistently so far. I know this is unusual, but I also know that he is depending on my routine right now too.


Very well stated Kimberly. THANK YOU!

I find my Havanese are very intelligent and I have not had any issues with potty training. Now when a bitch is in heat, that is another issue for my males!

Fact be told, most of the puppies I place are well on their way to being successfully potty trained before they leave here.


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## tabby2 (Jan 19, 2009)

I wouldn't tie ease/success in potty training to intelligence of dogs -- there are a lot of factors (size, consistency of training/owner commitment, environment, temperament [in terms of "spite peeing/pooping"] etc.).

Also, a trainer told me that one problem with potty training toy dogs is that the average owner is going to be much more upset with (and stringent about housebreaking) a big dog that poops something the size of Mount Olympus in the house than with a toy dog that leaves an itty bitty doodoo in the corner sometimes.

And, overall, Havanese seem to me to be a pretty intelligent breed. Just like with people, there are variations with individual dogs within the breed. But, of course, all Havanese are cute and loving as can be!


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Here is something I include in my puppy books for all my puppy buyers:

THE BEST ADVICE I HAVE EVER GIVEN PUPPY OWNERS IS TO
GET A NEWSPAPER AND ROLL IT UP VERY TIGHT....

SECURE IT WITH A RUBBER BAND AND LEAVE IT ON THE COFFEE TABLE....

THEN, WHEN THE PUPPY PIDDLES IN THE HOUSE, CHEWS UP A SLIPPER OR DOES ANYTHING HE'S NOT SUPPOSED TO DO, SIMPLY TAKE THE NEWSPAPER AND BANG IT ON THE TOP OF

YOUR HEAD VERY HARD WHILE REPEATING...
"I SHOULD HAVE BEEN WATCHING MY PUPPY!
I SHOULD HAVE BEEN WATCHING MY PUPPY!
I HOULD HAVE BEEN WATCHING MY PUPPY!"


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## deejay (Aug 19, 2008)

Okay, maybe it's just Chico who isn't the sharpest pencil in the box. Probably all other Havanese are very smart. Part of our problem is that for the past eighteen years all our dogs have been border collies and poodles and they were very intelligent and exhausting, trying to keep ahead of them. My husband suggested when we were looking for another dog that we don't get one on the top of the Dog IQ lists. Havanese weren't even on the lists. WE are getting older and we don't have the energy for border collies and poodles now. The vet said her remark in a joking manner and didn't intend to hurt Chico's feelings! Now if she had said that remark to our toy poodle or one of our previous border collies they would have sulked for hours.


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## tabby2 (Jan 19, 2009)

Kathy said:


> Here is something I include in my puppy books for all my puppy buyers:
> 
> THE BEST ADVICE I HAVE EVER GIVEN PUPPY OWNERS IS TO
> GET A NEWSPAPER AND ROLL IT UP VERY TIGHT....
> ...


Yes, and I still have bruises from following your instructions!!!


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Here's a link to an exceptional article in Psychology Today on canine intelligence.
It's written by Stanley Coren, Ph.D, the author of "The Intelligence of Dogs". According to him there are three major dimensions: 1) *Instinctive intelligence*~ This really refers to what a dog was bred for. For example, herding dogs were bred to herd animals. 2) *Adaptive intelligence*~ This is basically a measure of what a dog can learn to do for himself. 3) *Working and obedience intelligence*~ This is the closest to what we might call school-learning ability, and is based upon what the dog can learn to do when instructed by humans.

I can tell you that my Tori excels in all of these areas. We owned a sheltie (ranked the 6th smartest breed) years ago and Tori definitely could have given her a "run for the money" when it comes to smarts!

She's also been reliably pad trained since she came here at 9 weeks old!


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## TShot (Jan 16, 2009)

I'm not certain that how quickly a dog catches on to house-training is directly related to intelligence. I think it has more to do with the size of their bladder and the ability to hold it in.

I can only compare Petunia my Havanese, to my previous dog Angel a German Shepherd which I had for 13 years. I'm not a dog trainer, just a loving pet owner, I did however teach both my dogs all the basic commands. (sit, stay, down, heel, stop, bang-bang (play dead). I can honestly say that My little Havanese caught on just as quick if not quicker then my German Shepherd dog did to these commands. As far as house training, The German Shepherd was only taught to potty outside. My Havanese quickly learned to use the pee-pad and also rings a bell at the back door to go outside. I am currently working on teaching her to potty outside and use the pee-pad as a second choice when she is home alone.
In comparing my two dogs intelligence, I'd give the edge to the Havanese, she is smart enough to choose not to walk in wet grass or go outside in the cold to potty, unlike my German Shepherd who didn't care what the weather conditions were, she wasn't smart enough to stay under shelter when it rained  . Petunia the Havanese figured out quickly to check out the conditions before running outside.
I'm not criticizing you or your vet, but I think the problem is with the owners ability or technique to teach rather then the Havanese's ability to learn.


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

I disagree as well - Kipling is very smart...headstrong yes...but definitely smart. He was fully trained and reliable by 5 months but doing very well in advance of that. Agree with others - consistency and the crate helped us.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Amy wrote: *"So my experience makes no sense."* **** Ditto !!

Jane wrote: *"It really was exhausting - I felt like I had an incontinent infant living with me for months. This crosses my mind every time I think about getting a third! But now I'm glad I put out the effort up front. My feeling is that it is easier to train them from the beginning than trying to retrain a dog that has already developed some bad habits. It just seemed like while one successful potty outside was 1 step forward, one accident was equivalent to 10 steps backward vs. just 1 step backward in the training process."*

***** Omg, this is exactly how I felt - and feel sometimes, Jane! I totally sympathize. I really don't know what else to do, that I'm not already doing, to stop my boys, esp. Ricky, from peeing in other people's homes AND in our own home! :frusty::frusty::frusty:

I also think this breed is quite intelligent, but like Amy, my two seem to be very different in that respect. Sammy seems to have more 'shallow thinking', as in, he's undemanding, needs little stimulation/attention, doesn't always get what we'd like him to do. Ricky is too smart for his own good! lol He understands everything we say and do and you can almost see him think! Of course, I'm very attuned to both my dogs.

I don't take offense at all at what you and your vet jokingly said, deejay. Some Havs, like some of any breed, aren't exactly smart. I totally agree that, for the most part, poodles and border collies are VERY intelligent, therefore very demanding. I couldn't handle that either! lol


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## heatherkurt (Sep 1, 2009)

I do think Havs are harder to housetrain than some other breeds. Hudson and Cosmo are nearly 9 months now but still are not trustworthy. I have no doubt made some mistakes along the way, but have tried my very best to be consistent. Honestly, it's hard not to feel that I have failed in some way to still be having potty problems at this stage of the game (and my husband keeps playing the "I told you we should not have gotten the second dog" card). They are crated at night, I've tried bell training to no avail, and just recently installed a dog door. I completely agree with Jane's earlier comment about 1 step forward and 10 steps back. Meanwhile, I have managed to teach them various commands and tricks. Cosmo, the main potty perpetrator, graduated at the top of his obedience class. No doubt they are intelligent dogs, but maybe stubborn, or just seeing what they can get away with. Good thing they're so cute!


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

I wonder how much difference the breeder's beginning the potty training has to do with the Havanese learning this. I don't think Tucker's breeder did any of that, and he was extremely difficult to train. I could not have been more diligent with him, but the moment his feet touched the carpet he'd squat and potty. No matter if he'd been out only a minute before. I had him tested for UTI's, into the vet for any other ideas, NEVER left him loose in the house--always attached to me my a leash or in his pen, (where he could hold it for hours!) I could almost literally see the light bulb go on in his head at age 5 months. Prior to that there was no progress. From 5 months on is when he was TRAINABLE on housetraining. 

I've had three other breeds, (Keeshond, Norwegian Elkhound, and Sheltie,) and all of them were quite easy to house break. Yes they were bigger, their bladders were bigger, but also they drank more--I don't think that has anything to do with it.

I was prepared to be diligent and spend a lot more time training my Hav because of the research I'd done beforehand. It just took a lot of hard work. But, I've never been sorry I have Tucker, and if I get another dog it will be another Havanese, for sure. The pro's outweigh that con.


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## heatherkurt (Sep 1, 2009)

I am beginning to think early training at the breeder's does make a big difference. My puppies were 5 months when I got them, and in retrospect, perhaps I underestimated how much more difficult this would make things. Plus I have two, so at times it's twice the frustration. There are days when I could just about lose my mind! But, I hold onto the hope that we will get there eventually, and that all this work will be well worth it. I just pray that day comes soon!


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

Dexter is very smart! My feelings are hurt, that the Vet has it all wrong! Havs are very smart and good looking!


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## MyFreddie (Oct 25, 2009)

My Freddie is almost 5 months old and I am still having a terrible time potty training him. I do know that he is a very smart little fellow and I don't believe at all that his potty training relates to his intelligence . He is a very head strong . I am still confused on how to train him.:tea::tea::tea:


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## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

Thanks, Marj, ya made me feel better! :amen:

Sheri broached my other theory about why my guys habits are so different. We got each puppy at 14 wks. from different breeders. Biscuit's breeder had just one litter and he was the last to leave. They lavished lots of attention on him and pee-pad trained him. Biscuit has always peed instantly on command. Heath came from a breeder with lots of pups who trained them on newspaper, likely to save $, and he would never go on a pee-pad as a transitional thing. 

Though I also think it's his mind-set~~he's a free spirit who just cannot be bothered sometimes. He is so attuned to everything around him~~his eyes will track a plane flying overhead. He is getting better about coming to me & giving me THE LOOK. We haven't had an accident this wk! We've had him a year on Dec 2nd~~unbelievable. Remember how he howled like an orangutuan when we first got him?? He is so charming now, just a teddy bear.


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## Tritia (Nov 17, 2007)

Cooper poops in the house once every few months. Usually when I'm bragging on him, of course 
It's other areas that have nothing to do with potty training, that make me think he's not all that bright. He's a true air head, I tell ya. And it's his dopey personality that keeps him around with all his other flaws  
I remember when the lady at the obedience class said he wasn't very smart, how upset and offended I was. Cause I can say it...because he's mine, and I love him.
Just like my kids. My 7 yr old was throwing pretty weak last year. I teased him, joked about it to my husband. But, when the coach said he threw like a girl, I went mama bear on his butt!!


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Sheri said:


> I wonder how much difference the breeder's beginning the potty training has to do with the Havanese learning this. I don't think Tucker's breeder did any of that, and he was extremely difficult to train. I could not have been more diligent with him, but the moment his feet touched the carpet he'd squat and potty. No matter if he'd been out only a minute before. I had him tested for UTI's, into the vet for any other ideas, NEVER left him loose in the house--always attached to me my a leash or in his pen, (where he could hold it for hours!) I could almost literally see the light bulb go on in his head at age 5 months. Prior to that there was no progress. From 5 months on is when he was TRAINABLE on housetraining.
> 
> I've had three other breeds, (Keeshond, Norwegian Elkhound, and Sheltie,) and all of them were quite easy to house break. Yes they were bigger, their bladders were bigger, but also they drank more--I don't think that has anything to do with it.
> 
> I was prepared to be diligent and spend a lot more time training my Hav because of the research I'd done beforehand. It just took a lot of hard work. But, I've never been sorry I have Tucker, and if I get another dog it will be another Havanese, for sure. The pro's outweigh that con.


I think early training by the breeder has a lot to do with it. If I bought another Hav, that would be one of the first questions I asked. I got Fred from a breeder that was on the HCA REFERRAL LIST. I didn't think to ask her what she did to start his housebreaking, until I got him home...... I called her the minute I got home and said, " By the way, is Fred used to paper or pee pads?" She responded, " Oh, he was kept in a crate and the pan under him would catch his pee and poo." I was horrified that a breeder on that list would do that!! Plus, the breeder that referred me to her was a WELL known long time good standing Hav breeder!! I found out Fred was one of her "kennel dogs"!! He has a lot of issue because of it. Anyway, he took a year to housebreak. It was hard work. Scudder's breeder started him as a puppy. He was a breeze to housebreak. In fact, he used the dog door within an hour of being in my house. So in my opinion, early training has a lot to do with it. If the pup didn't get that, it's not impossible but you have to be much more diligent.

I also know that Brady's mom's breeder starts the housebreaking at day 1. I saw puppy that was only weeks old, crawl it's way over to the pee pad that was across the x pen! I think her Brady only had 1 pee accident ever.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I had one of each as well  I without a doubt think this breed is very intelligent. I honestly put potty training problems on the owner. I have had two rescues that were not potty trained and came into my home just not having a chance to have an accident. I really think it depends on the household more so than the dog.

Dash came from Kathy who at 4 months walked in my home ran out the dog door that I never showed him and went potty. He ran with the big dogs at that point and I never looked back. I bought the xpen before we brought him home as I left the other one before we moved, set it up and never even used it. Now it would be nice if all puppies came that way. It makes the puppy buying experience a million times better 

I got Dora at 5 months and the breeder had too many dogs and a kennel. Dora wasn't potty trained at all but I think after having a little maltese, I learned if I can't be diligent, she shouldn't be out of the xpen. I honestly think it took 2 weeks tops and Dora was potty trained. Maybe it was having a maltese with a little bladder as my first dog to house train so I was trained well 

Even with the rescues, I just went by if I can't watch them, they can't be out and taking them out all the time. Rewarding over correcting behaviors. The problem is you have to make the time for it and stick with it. If you have a set back, you need to go backwards. Also each of my dogs has different signs- Dash spins in circles and will bark if you dont come, Belle walks up to you and barks at you (this is nice unless she wants out for squirrels), and Dora jumps up and down. I have used bells for Dora as well and liked that method when we had the 3 story house.


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## Poornima (Jun 29, 2007)

Early training by the breeder is very important but the new owner has to be diligent, consistent to continue to work on it. My breeder potty trains all her pups early on and by the time they are ready to go to their forever homes, they are used to pads and doggie door. Benji and Lizzie were fully reliable as early as 6 months. We didn't give them full access to the house when they were alone until they were 7-8 months old. It takes diligence and consistency and hard work. Having said that, I notice that they will have occasional accidents and behaviour quirks when the routine is disturbed - e.g. houseguests, visitors, travel etc. 

Both my dogs are intelligent. We have moved 2 times within the last 15 months and they have adapted quickly to the new locations. They learned the potty spots and routine, They have been used to doggie door since they were wee pups but we no longer have a doggie door. They had to learn to use pads and going out on a leash to do their business. They learned to hold during day time when they don't want to use pads. They didn't have a single accident in any other area of the house from day one. 

They have different personalities and are different in how they use their smarts. Benji is too smart for his own good and is quite stubborn. I can see the wheels turning in his head. Lizzie is more laid back, quiet and astounds me with her "wise" ways. 

As Leslie posted, I think the dogs have different ways of expressing their intelligence. I think, it depends on how receptive we are to understand it and see it.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

I don't know about you guys but my girls are super intelligent!! Sometimes I think they are smarter than me.  Just kidding.....sort of.

I honestly didn't have a lot of trouble house training them. It was a lot of work but that's what it takes. I didn't expect them to "get it" right off the bat. They did come from a breeder who trained them on puppy pads and doggie door from a very early age (thanks Elaine!). 
I think McKenna was totally reliable in the house by 7 months and Sedona a bit earlier by 6 months. That was okay though. i guess my expectations were such that I didn't think it would/should happen any sooner really.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Kathy said:


> Here is something I include in my puppy books for all my puppy buyers:
> 
> THE BEST ADVICE I HAVE EVER GIVEN PUPPY OWNERS IS TO
> GET A NEWSPAPER AND ROLL IT UP VERY TIGHT....
> ...


I LOVE it!!! :laugh:


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Here's a few "Doggie IQ" tests I found on the web. Some of you may want to test your own dog(s) and see how they score 

DH and I did two of these w/ Tori last night. She scored 42 on the 2nd test I listed and a 35 on the last one. The 1st one is pretty involved so we didn't do it w/her, maybe another day... :biggrin1:

Superdogs IQ Test

Kobe on IQ

Dog IQ Test


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

deejay said:


> Okay, maybe it's just Chico who isn't the sharpest pencil in the box. Probably all other Havanese are very smart. Part of our problem is that for the past eighteen years all our dogs have been border collies and poodles and they were very intelligent and exhausting, trying to keep ahead of them. My husband suggested when we were looking for another dog that we don't get one on the top of the Dog IQ lists. Havanese weren't even on the lists. WE are getting older and we don't have the energy for border collies and poodles now. The vet said her remark in a joking manner and didn't intend to hurt Chico's feelings! Now if she had said that remark to our toy poodle or one of our previous border collies they would have sulked for hours.


Well, Kodi is my first puppy, and from my perspective, he's perfect, and I'm constantly amazed by how smart he is. :wink: That very biased opinion aside, however, I take him to a BIG training center once or twice a week and they are AMAZED by him. I've worked with not just one, but several of the trainers there, and they have all said similar things. (aside from the fact that he is terminally cute) They are astounded how quickly he catches onto new things, how easily he retains things AND how focused he is at not quite 7 months. They like him (and the couple of other Havs that train there) well enough that they recently asked me for information on Kodi's breeder, as they had a client who was looking for a new, small dog for obedience and they were recommending to her that she get a Hav.

Actually, one of the reasons I picked a Havanese is that I had read that they WERE smart and very trainable. I saw that they did well in both obedience and agility. I wanted that, but I DIDN'T want the high drive, energy level and intensity (let's face it, at times bordering on obsessiveness) of a BC or some of the other herding breeds.

I used to live with a BC on a horse farm. She was (mostly) great, because she was a true farm dog, and made up "jobs" for herself when there was nothing else to do. The trouble was that one of her self-assigned "jobs" was "helping" whenever a horse got fractious with a human handler. There was no way to keep her out of the mix, and this led to a broken leg at one point, and a broken skull at another point. (she lived through both, DID become wiser as a result, and died at the ripe old age of 15) Her brother, however, was purchased by other friends of ours as a "pet". While they did basic obedience training with Bran, he had no real "work" in his life, and became an obsessive "fetcher" inside the house. When you stopped throwing his ball, he'd bring you paper clips. When you took those away, he'd bring you anything else he could find on the floor. (once he brought me a postage stamp, stuck to his tongue!) Is this "smart" behavior? I wouldn't call it that. I'd call it mis-placed drive.

I don't know Poodles as well, but most that I've known have been snappish, hyper, unpleasant animals to people other than their immediate families. (though I've been told this is much less true of standards)

Just because a dog is not hyper like a BC or Poodle, doesn't mean they aren't smart, thinking dogs. I think we all have to concede that BC's top the list in the dog-brain dept. But the fact that Havs aren't listed only means there aren't that many of them around, and I don't think that anyone has bothered to test them in any MEANINGFUL way.

As far as vet opinions of Havs is concerned, I have found from my own veterinary practice that MOST of the Havs they see are NOT well-bred, carefully breeder-raised dogs. My vet was thrilled to meet Kodi when I first brought him in. He admitted that Kodi was the first breeder-raised Hav he'd met. All the others that use the practice come from the "Pick-a-Pup" dealer down the road. He was so impressed with Kodi's quality, both physically and temperamentally.

Pet store/puppy mill dogs have been raised in cages with no human input, with parents who have never been properly socialized, often sleeping and playing in their own filth. Then they are then put into pet store enclosures with pine shavings for them to poop and pee in where ever they please. No wonder they are hard to potty train, and no wonder they don't seem like the sharpest tools in the shed. We know that an enriched early environment is VITAL for proper brain development. This has been proven scientifically, time and again, with MANY species including human beings.

While I am new to dogs, I am not new to animal training. I've spent 35 years training horses. One thing I've learned in that length of time, watching many owners with many horses, is that you get out of an animal what you put in. While there are certainly some that learn faster than others, there are a vanishingly small number of horses that can't learn what is needed to become reliable riding horses. And in those cases where it ISN'T possible, it is almost always an issue of temperament, not intelligence.


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Well stated, Karen!


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Good point about the breeder's efforts to start potty training their pups early making a big difference! Thanks, Elaine! 

Scout still remembers his pad training, even though we did nothing to reinforce it. Once when I was gone for several hours and he had runny stools, he went on the bathroom rug, which was easy to clean!


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## Forbulous (Mar 23, 2009)

I love the name Scout!

Anyway, this made me laugh, as I sometimes Wonder if my dog lsot too much oxygen during birth! 
She will be 2 next month, and FINALLY I can trust her in the house...I have found a poop or two, but it is has been when I was gone way too long.....for the longest time when I would open teh back door and tell her to go potty, she would sit there and look at me and lick her lips....then about a month ago, 18 months after gettign her, she GOT IT! She has been doign great, until this morning when I let her out and she sat there licking her lips....I called her back in...this happened 2 more times, until finally she went out!!!!!!!

Yep- bag of hammers!


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## danak (Jun 17, 2007)

YEAH Kathy! 
I have two poorly trained dogs and I can tell you who owns the fault-it's totally mea culpa. My Havs are way smarter than I am consistent!


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

> Here's a few "Doggie IQ" tests I found on the web. Some of you may want to test your own dog(s) and see how they score


We should also do "People IQ" tests.... my philosophy is that there are no dumb dogs...just lazy people who don't take the time to train them.


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## TShot (Jan 16, 2009)

Waht do u maen us hhhavannese aint smarrt? 
Okkaay dad!!!!!! I'll git ooff ra compuuter,,,,, but I'm gooonnna neeed a treet. iff ra dont I will peeee on ra carrpet and untie yourr shoe.
Petunia


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

50% of Vets finished in the bottom half of their class.


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## mintchip (Apr 19, 2007)

TShot said:


> Waht do u maen us hhhavannese aint smarrt?
> Okkaay dad!!!!!! I'll git ooff ra compuuter,,,,, but I'm gooonnna neeed a treet. iff ra dont I will peeee on ra carrpet and untie yourr shoe.
> Petunia


ound:ound:


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Forbulous said:


> I love the name Scout!


Thanks! He came with that name and we couldn't really think of anything else.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

OMG, all three of mine are very smart! Either that, or I am very stupid!
No comments needed Dana, lmao!
Carole


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

lfung5 said:


> My guys are smart too and completely potty trained. The only thing that Fred did about a year ago, he tried to mark in someone's house. The lady told me lots of dogs had accidents in her house, so i think he thought it was ok! I don't seem to have that problem anymore.
> 
> I really think if you get your dog as a pup and he/she isn't housebreaking, it's something you're doing wrong. Hope that doesn't offend anyone.


No offense, you're right.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Leslie said:


> Here's a link to an exceptional article in Psychology Today on canine intelligence.
> It's written by Stanley Coren, Ph.D, the author of "The Intelligence of Dogs". According to him there are three major dimensions: 1) *Instinctive intelligence*~ This really refers to what a dog was bred for. For example, herding dogs were bred to herd animals. 2) *Adaptive intelligence*~ This is basically a measure of what a dog can learn to do for himself. 3) *Working and obedience intelligence*~ This is the closest to what we might call school-learning ability, and is based upon what the dog can learn to do when instructed by humans.
> 
> I can tell you that my Tori excels in all of these areas. We owned a sheltie (ranked the 6th smartest breed) years ago and Tori definitely could have given her a "run for the money" when it comes to smarts!
> ...


Yeah when Stanley wrote that book ,the Havanese wasn't that popular yet, and therefore was not in the study. In the book the closest Hav relative that I found was the Bichon , which scored 45 out of about 100 dogs studied. But we all agree Havs are even smarter than Bichons LOL. I agree with what he is saying . There are differences in learning abilities. and it is sometimes difficult to compare. but he did clarify his studies which is fine. I will start a new thread with an interesting article that questions this whole intelligence theory. It will be called The Intelligence of Dogs.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

My two are so different in so many ways. Milo (and you know I love him) is not the sharpest knife in the drawer. He's a charmer, bringing out the best in everyone he meets, whereas Bailey is sharp as a tack and an absolute lover with me, but he's not as interested in other people. Milo was a bear to train. Bailey was easy and quick. He always loved to be clean, looking forward to his bath, while Milo saw the preparations and packed his bag to leave for parts unknown.

I must say, most of the dogs I've had in my life were very smart, but it doesn't matter. I've loved each and every one of them for the special souls they all are.


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## deejay (Aug 19, 2008)

After my comments or complaints of yesterday, Chico has decided he had to go out side every hour or so and there has been no accidents in a few days. The problem with that is that the island we live on is having incredibly heavy rains and lots of flooding. He loves getting wet and then doing zoomies around the house. Me, not so much.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

deejay, what island do you live on?


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## deejay (Aug 19, 2008)

Sheri said:


> deejay, what island do you live on?


I live on Vancouver Island off the coast of British Columbia. I live in the same valley that Elite Havanese is based in.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

deejay said:


> After my comments or complaints of yesterday, Chico has decided he had to go out side every hour or so and there has been no accidents in a few days. The problem with that is that the island we live on is having incredibly heavy rains and lots of flooding. He loves getting wet and then doing zoomies around the house. Me, not so much.


Figures! :laugh:


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

This may not be a popular point of view, but I honestly think that much like people, dogs tend to live up or down to our expectations. If we expect the pup to be an endearing clown but hard to potty train, that is likely what we will get. Likewise if we have the expectation the pup will quickly catch onto sit, he will. Especially with a do bred for companionship, they are so in sync with our feelings and emotions that they pick up on our anxiety about things we think will be difficult and that can lead to confusion and overall problems.

We had a yorkie for nearly 15 years that was house broke to a degree. She would tell you she needed to go out, unless it was raining, snowing or the wind was howling. She would spite pee/poo and she also always, always, always, would pee on a throw rug or mat in the kitchen or bathroom. Well duh....she was pee pad trained by the breeder. How dense was I to not figure that one out until after the poor thing had passed and I was reading this forum?

Our Murray is smart as a whip on most things. We were blessed to rescue a 2 y/o that was already housebroke. His previous owner kept him in a crate at night as she said he would have accidents otherwise. He has never had an accident in our house. That said, there are some nights when he needs to go out twice. Luckily dh works on the computer until quite late most nights so Murray just jumps out of our bed and trots down to the studio to let him know he needs out. Once he comes to bed, he closes the door and if Murray needs out he jumps out on my side of the bed and snorts for me to get up. If I'm sound asleep and that doesn't work, he jumps back up and licks my hand or face to wake me up.


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## Tritia (Nov 17, 2007)

Well, Sally..you may just have to brush up on those house breaking skills 

My friend who took one of her brother's havs is having a heck of a time. Said the pup (who is only like..10, 11 wks old?) is totally regressing. Pees and poops in the house all the time now. She thinks having the door wide open all day for him to come and go as he pleases is gonna do the trick. I really think because she's so busy with her kids and such, it's just hard for her to watch him as well as she needs to be.
Couple days ago, she was thinking about throwing in the towel. Said her kids won't really miss him, as the novelty has worn off. Only reason she's not giving up..is she sees it as a failure. 
They still love on him, take him places, and he's with them constantly (isn't locked away in a crate all day)
But the house breaking is getting the best of her.
He'll probably come my way again. And if he does...Sally, you're my first call :biggrin1:


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

OMG, TRITIA!!!!!! You totally made my day...not that I want the poor baby to be bounced around, but you know she would have a totally devoted forever home here.


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