# is it to late?



## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

oi vey.
So Tillie has house manners and rotinue DOWN. she is 17 months and we have made (apparently) the big mistake of not taking any classes beyond puppy classes with her since last fall.
Soooooo, tonight I tried to teach her a very simple command. "Paw" ... 45 FREAKING minutes later, nothing. NOTHING. I am pretty sure she is stupid.
sigh.... I was touching her arm, saying "Paw" and picking her paw up, praise and treat. 45 minutes. mind you, the treats were miniscuale. TINY crumbs ... she would even lay DOWN while I was trying to teach her! I would try to get her to sit and she would look at me like I was retarded.
what the heck!? I THOUGHT she was smart... have I ruined her by not doing any formal training? why can't she learn simple behaviors???
hopefully I am teaching it wrong...?


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## Leah00 (Oct 21, 2011)

I'm not an expert in any way. I think formal training is great but not always necessary. I had a Beagle/Shih Tzu mix (Puck) who was never formally trained and I was able to teach him everything. He was super smart and anything I thought to teach him he'd learn in just a few tries. He was reliable too. Once we were hiking and he slipped out of his harness and took off down a steep hill. I thought he was gone forever. I could barely see him and I yelled "DOWN STAY" and he layed down and waited until I climbed/rolled down the hill to get him. I was super proud. 
He knew all of his tricks by verbal commands and hand signs. I taught him all of this when I was 17 years old.

My dog Rocky barely knows "sit".  He just never cared when I tried to work with him. He would just sit or lay down and look at me. He's always been a good dog (house manners are good, comes when he's called) so I never cared to take him to classes.

Anyway, for your sake, I hope she was just not in the mood and that she picks it up quickly.  I've been trying to teach Jasper some stuff and so far he knows "sit", sort of getting to know "shake", and working on "spin". It's been a slower progress than I expected. I keep telling him that Havanese are supposed to be smart!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

LOL ... I used to think Tillie WAS smart ... I think she is smart in a 'different' way... LOL
I will just keep telling her, "HAVANESE are SMART" until she listens! 
I am going to take an intermediate odbedience class after the new year ... and just be thankful that she is such a sweetie and has all the house rules DOWN pat.
she knows ~ sit, lay down, off, up, stay, 'go get it' (it's a game we play) ...but her recall is HORRID and I can't seem to teach her any 'tricks' or new commands.


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang (May 21, 2007)

Don't despair! You tried to teach her a new trick in ONE sitting. 45-minutes is a long time to work on training for one session. She was probably getting bored or stressed long before you did.

Training should be fun for BOTH of you. While you're watching TV take a couple of minutes (during commercial break) to work on getting her to lift the paw. Using commercials as a time limit prevents you from getting too stressed out and overeager. Break it into fun, short sessions and you may get better results.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TilliesMom said:


> LOL ... I used to think Tillie WAS smart ... I think she is smart in a 'different' way... LOL
> I will just keep telling her, "HAVANESE are SMART" until she listens!
> I am going to take an intermediate odbedience class after the new year ... and just be thankful that she is such a sweetie and has all the house rules DOWN pat.
> she knows ~ sit, lay down, off, up, stay, 'go get it' (it's a game we play) ...but her recall is HORRID and I can't seem to teach her any 'tricks' or new commands.


Tammy, you haven't "ruined" her, she IS smart, and it's NEVER too late! It may be that you need some help with your timing, and it may be that "paw" isn't particularly easy for her. I don't know if you read what I posted in another thread about teaching Kodi the stand, but that took me NINE MONTHS to get solid. So 45 minutes doesn't seem like much.:biggrin1:

One thing I DO know is that 45 minutes is too long to work on ANY one thing. Try 30 seconds 3-4 times a day and you'll make better progress than 45 minutes a day. In classes, we work on a bunch of different things during the course of an hour. When I practice with Kodi, who at this point is much more used to the training routine than Tilly is, I NEVER work more than about 5 minutes at a time, often much less.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

thanks for the advice, I will try doing small 5 minute training sessions... if 'paw' seems to hard for her, what SHOULD I try to teach her and how?? I am honestly surprised that I haven't screwed her up completely by now... LOL i am CLUELESS about dogs ... and am, in reality, a 'cat person'! :yield: :behindsofa:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TilliesMom said:


> thanks for the advice, I will try doing small 5 minute training sessions... if 'paw' seems to hard for her, what SHOULD I try to teach her and how?? I am honestly surprised that I haven't screwed her up completely by now... LOL i am CLUELESS about dogs ... and am, in reality, a 'cat person'! :yield: :behindsofa:


5 minutes is the LONGEST you should work with her at one time right now. Have you worked with her with a clicker at all? If not, that's where I would start, just with "charging" the clicker. (click, treat, click, treat, click, treat). Next I'd work on attention exercises. Say her name ONCE. Wait for her to look at you, (wait as long as it takes... Don't say it again) then click and treat.

Next work on hand touches. Hold a tiny treat between your thumb and palm, and wait for her to touch your hand with her nose. She will because she smells the treat. Click and treat. Do it a few more times, then just hold your hand out WITH OUT a treat. WAIT for her to touch your hand, then click/treat. When she is touching your offered hand consistently, start saying touch as you offer your hand. Before long, she will know both the hand signal AND the word. Then start offering both hands, in all kinds of different positions.

This is at least two weeks worth of work. Let us know how tou are doing, and if you run into any problems. When you get done with those, I can give you some other exercises to get you going!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

awesome! thanks so much Karen! I need to print out your instructions to have at the ready! I will start charging the clicker! We did use it last year in puppy class, BUT i have 2 kids ... and the clicker was just TOO appealing to them and they totally ruined it for Tillie.  they are both in school during the day, so they won't KNOW I am using it and I will hide it from them. LOL


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

k, all printed! thanks so much for your advice Karen!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Happy to help! Of course there is nothing wrong with a Hav "just" being a pet, but they are SO smart and have so much to offer that I love it when someone wants to do more with their Hav!


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## heatherk (Feb 24, 2011)

krandall said:


> Happy to help! Of course there is nothing wrong with a Hav "just" being a pet, but they are SO smart and have so much to offer that I love it when someone wants to do more with their Hav!


I really think it helps the dog too - gives them something to work on/focus on/work their brain and body on . Positive training is a good thing for all involved!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

for sure! she has fully learned how to be a part of the family and is fantastic, but I can tell she is bored and needs some mental stimulation!! We have a few 'games' that we play and she learned those very quickly, but actual 'tricks' or commands it seems like she is just like, 'what FUN is THAT mom!?!' looking forward to stimulating her a bit and turning her BRAIN ON!!


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## Atticus (May 17, 2011)

Great advise! You might also want to work on her recall, put the treat right by her nose say her name and back up a few steps with her following you then treat. Do this a lot, in different rooms. Always treat her but start not having the treat so close to her nose (luring)as she gets better. I never call using Atticus's name unless I'm sure he will come. If she doesn't come get closer again or get better treats. I do this about 10 times a day. Now Atticus comes running from anywhere when he hears his name. You always want it fun which means you always want her to succeed which means you are both happy! SO make it easy and short 3 quick recalls, done. At first it doesn't feel like she is doing anything but following the treat in your hand,thats ok you slowly increase the distance. This takes weeks/months/years (a strong recall outdoors with distractions is a joy to have but lots of time to teach!!!)
Also if you have sit and down you can work on stay for longer. Ask for sit use a hand/voice signal for stay and take one step away (to the side or back). You increase the time and distance as your dog succeeds. If she breaks don't correct , I just say oops and back it up so she succeeds. Really only do a few times of training, and spread it out over the day. I use a clicker for new tricks/behaviors but not for recall. ENJOY!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Atticus said:


> Great advise! You might also want to work on her recall, put the treat right by her nose say her name and back up a few steps with her following you then treat. Do this a lot, in different rooms. Always treat her but start not having the treat so close to her nose (luring)as she gets better. *I never call using Atticus's name unless I'm sure he will come.* If she doesn't come get closer again or get better treats. I do this about 10 times a day. Now Atticus comes running from anywhere when he hears his name. You always want it fun which means you always want her to succeed which means you are both happy! SO make it easy and short 3 quick recalls, done. At first it doesn't feel like she is doing anything but following the treat in your hand,thats ok you slowly increase the distance. This takes weeks/months/years (a strong recall outdoors with distractions is a joy to have but lots of time to teach!!!)
> Also if you have sit and down you can work on stay for longer. Ask for sit use a hand/voice signal for stay and take one step away (to the side or back). You increase the time and distance as your dog succeeds. If she breaks don't correct , I just say oops and back it up so she succeeds. Really only do a few times of training, and spread it out over the day. I use a clicker for new tricks/behaviors but not for recall. ENJOY!!!


Really good info. I bolded and put in red the part about not using her name (or your recall word) unless you are CERTAIN she will come. HTat's the beginning of starting a strong recall. This is something your kids CAN help with. I think I remember that you have a hall way in your house? Have each kid sit at one end of the hall, with their legs spread out to touch the walls, and give each a handful of treats. Put Tillie in the middle, and have them (one at a time) call her name JUST ONCE, and wait for her to come to them, then give her a treat. Then have the other one call. I guarantee, it will only take her minutes to catch on, and she'll be BLASTING up and down the hall, playing the game. Just remind the kids that they don't give her a treat unless THEY called, and they can only call once, then they must WAIT for her to figure it out. (and I agree, there is no need for a clicker in recall work... getting to you is clearly the end behavior, and should be motivating enough in itself)

While Jody's right about how to work on the stays, I wouldn't do that until she is really solid on the attention skills I gave you, and really "playing the game". You want her eager to work with you before starting on something hard and boring like stays.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Tammy Tillie is probably holding out for steak treats. She is smarter than you think.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Luciledodd said:


> Tammy Tillie is probably holding out for steak treats. She is smarter than you think.


Ha! I was thinking the same thing... That dog is smart like a cat!ound:


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

ha ha ha ha seriously Lucille ... never thought I'd say it, but yes, Tillie has trained ME... sigh... ound:


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Start working on something that is easy to understand and get really excited when she does it. then the rest will come easy. like holding a treat up high and say "dance" I bet she does that right away. sit is easy too...you hold the treat just above her head and back and she will sit. 

but that tilly in not dumb! no way, no how.


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

TilliesMom said:


> ha ha ha ha seriously Lucille ... never thought I'd say it, but yes, Tillie has trained ME... sigh... ound:


This reminds me of something Augie did when he was little. My friend and I would go walking at the park and I would take Augie with us. I had a hard time at first with walking him on leash. He would do RLH's around my legs, pull on the leash - he was just naughty and I didn't know very well how to handle it until we started obedience classes. Anyway, I would get him back to heeling nicely and give him a treat. Then he would run amok again. My friend said - you know, Linda, he is working you! These Havs are NOT dumb! ound:

We took puppy classes when Augie was small and I kept working on those skills after the classes ended - sit, down, leave it, etc. But we did not pick up obedience training again until he was about 20 months old and he has done very well. So, not too late!


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## misstray (Feb 6, 2011)

Brody does "paw" when we are playing our game. I get him to sit, paw and give me ten (he sits up and hits me with both paws). It's fun and cute. However, he only does it when we are playing, the second I try to grab a treat to train it he's so busy watching where the treat is he doesn't do it and he looks at me like I'm retarded when I say "paw" and I'm holding the treat. I'm sure he's saying, "just bring me my treats, woman!"


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## Momo means Peach (Jun 7, 2011)

I've always thought Momo was, how shall I say it, "special". "Sit" She sits. "Sit" She looks at me. "Sit" She lies down, quickly. "Sit" She lies down again, once again quickly. :frusty:

But, she did learn "Give me five" and "High five" (which for her is high ten). So, I don't know. Maybe, she chooses what she wants to do.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Every dog I have ever had learned sit, stay, heel, and come. Rosie has the heel down pat. If I say sit she does a little curtsey thing. So you know that stay is not in her vocabulary and come---that is only is she wants to. I really think the other dogs I had were just dumb enough to do what I said. Rosie pretty much does what she wants to. Also, I only stressed the important things that would get her killed, like not going through the door, staying upstairs at the office, etc.


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## Leah00 (Oct 21, 2011)

> BUT i have 2 kids ... and the clicker was just TOO appealing to them and they totally ruined it


^^^That's exactly why I can't use the clicker at my house! I can only do the training sessions on my lunch break or after my kids are in bed. My 3 year old son would drive Jasper nuts with the clicker! Lol.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

LOL, oh I know she isn't dumb... she just ACTS like it sometimes... 
yes, i was JUST working with her, click, treat, click, treat, click treat ... she's like wahooooo I LOVE this game mom... LOL and of course my 6 yr old is like let ME click it mama... uhhhhhhh... NO!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Luciledodd said:


> Every dog I have ever had learned sit, stay, heel, and come. Rosie has the heel down pat. If I say sit she does a little curtsey thing. So you know that stay is not in her vocabulary and come---that is only is she wants to. I really think the other dogs I had were just dumb enough to do what I said. Rosie pretty much does what she wants to. Also, I only stressed the important things that would get her killed, like not going through the door, staying upstairs at the office, etc.


Yeah, I get the impression that Miss Rosie has you pretty much wrapped around her little paw. The nice thing is these dogs, in general, are so easy to get along with that if that's all you want to ask of them, they don't take advantage of that kind of training. I'd bet any amount of money that Rosie knows exactly where the line in the sand is drawn.:biggrin1:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TilliesMom said:


> LOL, oh I know she isn't dumb... she just ACTS like it sometimes...
> yes, i was JUST working with her, click, treat, click, treat, click treat ... she's like wahooooo I LOVE this game mom... LOL and of course my 6 yr old is like let ME click it mama... uhhhhhhh... NO!


Both you and Leah should develop a "marker" word that you use exactly like a clicker... only to mark a correct behavior. I use "Yesss!", but it can be any word that is short and distinctive. This can be used all those times that you DON'T have the clicker in your hands and want to mark a correct behavior.

It doesn't work QUITE as well as a clicker for two reasons. First, it is hard to be as precise with the word as you can be with the clicker. Second, words are processed in a different part of the dog's brain... one that is highly developed in humans, but NOT very developed in dogs. So a word registers a bit slower than a sound like a click for the dog.

But it is still REALLY useful to develop and "charge" both. Once you've got the clicker charged, start saying "Yesss!" (or whatever word you choose!) at the same time you click. Then start practicing using one OR the other. (just make sure to use the clicker more often than your marker word at times when it's practical)

Over time, you will probably find that the clicker will be your tool of choice for developing NEW behaviors, but that your voice marker is FINE for marking an established behavior to let the dog know they did it right and a treat is coming.

Just remember that EVERY SINGLE TIME that you either click or use your marker word, it HAS to be followed by a treat. In the beginning, the treat should be immediate. With time (and I mean many months here) a dog can learn to delay the need for gratification for a few seconds (for instance, if you need to go to the kitchen for a treat) I NEVER use the clicker this way... that is ALWAYS followed immediately by a treat, because I use it for new behaviors. But I do sometimes delay (a little... you can't delay indefinitely) for my verbal marker for established behaviors.


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## Miss Paige (Apr 4, 2008)

Our Havie's are smart-they have us trained. And I agree 5mins at a time is a good training routine-and a clicker is a great tool. I took Miss Paige to Rally class-she did not seem to enjoy it-she would stop and look out at the others as if to say-Are you watching me-the instructor would say-Paige we are watching you now get on with the class. Obedience class was a nightmare-she did fine on all but the recall-the Goldens would bound back so excited-Paige would very slowly walk back-as if to say-why am I doing this and is it really In My Best Interest to do this stuff-What the heck is in it for me. I gave up and just let her enjoy stuff-she does like to go in the ring in Veterans and walk around-she knows everyone is looking at her-LOL

Pat (humom) to
Miss Paige
Mr Roman
Ms Frannie (my true angel girl)
Ms T for as long as she needs


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

krandall said:


> 5 minutes is the LONGEST you should work with her at one time right now. Have you worked with her with a clicker at all? If not, that's where I would start, just with "charging" the clicker. (click, treat, click, treat, click, treat). Next I'd work on attention exercises. Say her name ONCE. Wait for her to look at you, (wait as long as it takes... Don't say it again) then click and treat.
> 
> Next work on hand touches. Hold a tiny treat between your thumb and palm, and wait for her to touch your hand with her nose. She will because she smells the treat. Click and treat. Do it a few more times, then just hold your hand out WITH OUT a treat. WAIT for her to touch your hand, then click/treat. When she is touching your offered hand consistently, start saying touch as you offer your hand. Before long, she will know both the hand signal AND the word. Then start offering both hands, in all kinds of different positions.This is at least two weeks worth of work. Let us know how tou are doing, and if you run into any problems. When you get done with those, I can give you some other exercises to get you going!


 can you train two dogs at the same time? Maddie and I had a lot more going on with fun training I think we would have gotten a lot father ahead if I had waited to get a second Havanese. 
I would love to have small training sessions with both at once. Lately I have been telling them to sit before I throw the ball and they do that I also have them sit before I give a reward treat. Or is that confusing to them do they think the treat is for sitting? and the good girl for going potty out side is lost? 
Is it bad when I give both a treat even if only one has gone potty outside?


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

TilliesMom said:


> LOL, oh I know she isn't dumb... she just ACTS like it sometimes...
> yes, i was JUST working with her, click, treat, click, treat, click treat ... she's like wahooooo I LOVE this game mom... LOL and of course my 6 yr old is like let ME click it mama... uhhhhhhh... NO!


 Thats cute did you train with a clicker at your puppy class? I have a hard time coordinating holding a clicker and treats at the same time. And when we were in class Zoey was on a leash so I had three things to hold.


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

Suzi, you didn't ask me, but I am going to butt in and put my 2 cents in.  I don't see how you could train two at once without confusing them. In my opinion, it needs to be done one-on-one. If you are using the clicker method (which I think is very effective - and we initially tried it without), it is important to click at the exact right time, and I don't see that it could be done with two dogs at once.


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

Suzi said:


> Thats cute did you train with a clicker at your puppy class? I have a hard time coordinating holding a clicker and treats at the same time. And when we were in class Zoey was on a leash so I had three things to hold.


Ha - I had trouble with that too! But after a bit, you will get the hang of it and get it coordinated. If I could do it (as I am not the most coordinated), you certainly can!  Sometimes, to get rid of the leash component, we would step on it and hold it with our foot.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

no idea about training 2 at once.... LOL

yes, we used the clicker in the begining of her training last fall.
She DOES have very good 'manners', she sits and stays as long as I make her before she is released to eat (Yesssss is the release word) she lays down and stays while I go in another room to hide her squirrel, once again waiting for the release (this time it's "GO get it!") she always sits when she comes in from going potty for a treat, waits for me to go through doors, etc. 
I am just thinking and looking to do more "fun" training and am working on 'loading the clicker' this week. which of course, she LOVES! like, 'shoot mom I don't have to DO anything for this treat... are you SURE?' LOL
I do okay with treats, clicker and leash BUT when we are at home I don't have her on a leash.. although I DO have a really hard time when I am supposed to offer her an "empty hand" and then click AND treat - with the same hand!! not sure if I'll ever figure that out!! I DO have a 'treat bag' that goes on my belt loop, but I find I can't get IN it fast enough and treat her immediatly unless the treats are IN my hand...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> can you train two dogs at the same time? Maddie and I had a lot more going on with fun training I think we would have gotten a lot father ahead if I had waited to get a second Havanese.
> I would love to have small training sessions with both at once. Lately I have been telling them to sit before I throw the ball and they do that I also have them sit before I give a reward treat. Or is that confusing to them do they think the treat is for sitting? and the good girl for going potty out side is lost?
> Is it bad when I give both a treat even if only one has gone potty outside?


It is VERY hard (close to impossible) to time your rewards closely enough to make it apparent to two dogs, who is getting rewarded for what.

Yes, if you are treating for "going potty", and you bring them inside, then make them sit first, you are actually reinforcing the sit... by then they have long forgotten about going potty.

It's not "bad" to give the other one a treat, but you aren't reinforcing anything, you are just "giving a treat".

It would be MUCH more effective to have a 5 minute 1-1 session with each of them once a day. Surely you can find 10 minutes a day for training?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> Thats cute did you train with a clicker at your puppy class? I have a hard time coordinating holding a clicker and treats at the same time. And when we were in class Zoey was on a leash so I had three things to hold.


You don't need to be holding the treats in your hand... in fact, unless you are using the treat as a lure to train a NEW behavior, you SHOULDN'T have the treat in your hand. The click means "a treat is coming". They can delay gratification long enough for you to get it out of a pocket or bait bag.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TilliesMom said:


> no idea about training 2 at once.... LOL
> 
> yes, we used the clicker in the begining of her training last fall.
> She DOES have very good 'manners', she sits and stays as long as I make her before she is released to eat (Yesssss is the release word) she lays down and stays while I go in another room to hide her squirrel, once again waiting for the release (this time it's "GO get it!") she always sits when she comes in from going potty for a treat, waits for me to go through doors, etc.
> ...


Tammy, it shouldn't take her very long to learn that "click" means a treat is coming, which gives you long enough to get it out of your pocket or bait bag. In the mean time, click and drop the treat near her on the floor. This does two things. It gets the treat to her faster, and it also removes her nose from your hand so that she needs to go find it again before she gets another click/treat.


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

motherslittlehelper said:


> Suzi, you didn't ask me, but I am going to butt in and put my 2 cents in.  I don't see how you could train two at once without confusing them. In my opinion, it needs to be done one-on-one. If you are using the clicker method (which I think is very effective - and we initially tried it without), it is important to click at the exact right time, and I don't see that it could be done with two dogs at once.


Suzi and Karen: Please let me apologize for butting into your conversation. I was catching up on this thread and just now realized how rude that was. So sorry.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

hahahaha, drop the treat on the ground? really? okay.. KAREN told me to!! 
Tillie's gonna LOVE this ... when do we get to the part where she is learning something fun!!?? yes, I am totally, completely, 100% impatient. but following your instructions Karen.. LOL click, treat, click, treat, click, treat. 
oh and my back THANKS you for TELLING me to drop the treat for her!


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

krandall said:


> You don't need to be holding the treats in your hand... in fact, unless you are using the treat as a lure to train a NEW behavior, you SHOULDN'T have the treat in your hand. The click means "a treat is coming". They can delay gratification long enough for you to get it out of a pocket or bait bag.


 I have to get off the lazey Boy and give the sisters more time! I think it would be fun to teach tricks and then have them both do it at the same time. Glad to hear the treat can be a bit delayed. Thanks


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

motherslittlehelper said:


> Suzi and Karen: Please let me apologize for butting into your conversation. I was catching up on this thread and just now realized how rude that was. So sorry.


I don't think it was rude at all!!! When did we start having private conversations on this forum? As far as I'm concerned, you are welcome to jump in any darned time you want!!!:biggrin1:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TilliesMom said:


> hahahaha, drop the treat on the ground? really? okay.. KAREN told me to!!
> Tillie's gonna LOVE this ... when do we get to the part where she is learning something fun!!?? yes, I am totally, completely, 100% impatient. but following your instructions Karen.. LOL click, treat, click, treat, click, treat.
> oh and my back THANKS you for TELLING me to drop the treat for her!


Have you moved on to calling her name and click/treating when she responds? Once she's doing it reliably for several repetitions, move to somewhere new in the room, call her name JUST ONCE, and WAIT for her to come to you. Then click/treat. Move somewhere else, and do it again.

Once she's doing those things, you will have your clicker pretty well charged.

Now we can start teaching her to "shake". Put a piece of food in your hand, and let her see it. Then close your fingers around it so she can't get it, and put your hand down low. She will probably snuffle around at it, especially if you've been working on the targeting. just ignore that, and don't say ANYTHING. Eventually, she will try pawing at your hand. The moment she does, click and treat. Do this a number of times, and she will start pawing immediately, since that's what got her the reward.

Next leave your hand open (with no treat), and wait for her to touch it with her paw. again, wait her out. If she touches, even briefly, click and treat with your other hand. If you REALLY wait, and she seems confused, go back to having her touch your hand with the treat in it. Eventually she will get the idea and touch your open hand. Remember, at this stage you don't try to name the behavior, and you don't talk while she is figuring it out. (It's fine to tell her she's a good girl when she gets it right)

You may find that at some point, she starts barking at you, or wanders off, or goes and gets a drink... these are all signs of frustration, and that's OK, as long as it's mild. It's getting her to THINK. The idea of clicker training is that you want the dog to start USING her brain, not just becoming a robot responding to signals. She will, in all likelihood come back and engage with you again. If it REALLY seems to hard for her, back it down to a simpler exercise that she has already mastered. Do some repetitions of that to get her motivated again, then go back to the harder behavior.

When you're at the stage where she's touching your hand with her paw, (or if something goes wrong and you can't get there) tell me, and we'll shape it a bit farther!

Oh, and you can do ALL of this (other than calling her name from various places) sitting in a chair, if you want!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

for SURE I will be sitting in a chair!  I usually do when training her because of my back.
I haven't added calling her name yet ... do I click when she comes to me and treat then?
thank you so much for the instructions!! you are awesome!!
I am going to print this out, as I did that with the other instructions and it helps me to know what to do when.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

TilliesMom said:


> hahahaha, drop the treat on the ground? really? okay.. KAREN told me to!!
> Tillie's gonna LOVE this ... when do we get to the part where she is learning something fun!!?? yes, I am totally, completely, 100% impatient. but following your instructions Karen.. LOL click, treat, click, treat, click, treat.
> oh and my back THANKS you for TELLING me to drop the treat for her!


 I hope its not all the treats that caused Tillies runs and butt bath Zoey loves real chicken but I save that for my conformation classes.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

I don't think it was the treats, I break them up so small and they are allergen free for her ... I miss the days of giving her chicken, you should see the eyes we get when we have it for dinner!!


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

Jack brought rotisserie chicken from the deli home a couple of nights ago. He was met at the door by two characters with those eyes, followed him to the kitchen and sat there waiting until they got some. That is their absolute favorite. I like it too!! :biggrin1: But I have to be very careful and not give Augie too much, or we will have poopy butt issues.


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

krandall said:


> I don't think it was rude at all!!! When did we start having private conversations on this forum? As far as I'm concerned, you are welcome to jump in any darned time you want!!!:biggrin1:


Thank you, Karen.  While this thread or the forum isn't about private conversations, Suzi did ask the question of YOU, and I pretty much just jumped in before you had a chance to respond. After I reread it later, I just thought, oh man, that was pretty rude. But, thank you.  And this is a great thread!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

I didn't think it was rude either Linda!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TilliesMom said:


> for SURE I will be sitting in a chair!  I usually do when training her because of my back.
> I haven't added calling her name yet ... do I click when she comes to me and treat then?
> thank you so much for the instructions!! you are awesome!!
> I am going to print this out, as I did that with the other instructions and it helps me to know what to do when.


Yeah, do the call her name and wait for her to come before moving on to anything else. And, yes, you click/treat when she comes to you. It's important to ONLY say her name once, though, then WAIT. if you keep saying her name, you only teach her that she doesn't need to come the first time you say it.

Also, make sure you start with her right beside you. Say her name, and as soon as she turns her head toward you, click/treat. Only when she is really reliable at that do you want to move a little farther away from her.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> I hope its not all the treats that caused Tillies runs and butt bath Zoey loves real chicken but I save that for my conformation classes.


Well, if whatever you are using as treats is giving her tummy trouble, you can just use her regular food. Just do your 5 minutes of training right before breakfast. (or supper, it doesn't matter) Dish out her food, and give her pieces as her rewards. When you are done with her session, she gets the rest of her meal as a "jackpot" for playing with you!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

okay... we are struggling over here!!
she does the coming to her name thing a little TOO good. LOL I can not get away from her! so she is always just RIGHT there when I call her name. I take a step away, she takes a step closer. Do i have her "stay" and then move away from her? SHe does know Stay, VERY well. 

So, we tried the hold the treat in my hand and wait her out thing this morning. It flopped. She of course snuffled and slimed my hand really good. she layed down. she stared holes in me. she sat up, sniffed and licked, stared at me some more ... this went on for nearly 10 minutes. she never once even THOUGHT to paw my hand.
Should I use a higher treat value?? maybe CHEESE?
help!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Hi Tammy, I started another thread called "Clicker Training for Tilly" so that people reading this later will know what it's about!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

okay, thanks! you are so kind and helpful!! we really appreciate your help and guidance!


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## Momo means Peach (Jun 7, 2011)

It took Momo a half hour before she got it. So, hang in there!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

wow, really!? I have a SUPER bad back and I just can't work with her for very long... tonight I even tried to get on the floor and that was a BAD idea... still paying for that.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TilliesMom said:


> wow, really!? I have a SUPER bad back and I just can't work with her for very long... tonight I even tried to get on the floor and that was a BAD idea... still paying for that.


Tammy, you can also put her UP on something. We did a lot of training on the washing machine in the beginning!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

ooooo, DUH! good idea! I did try it in my recliner with her on my lap, but that is just too relaxed for her to use her brain.. she kept nodding off! LOL


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TilliesMom said:


> ooooo, DUH! good idea! I did try it in my recliner with her on my lap, but that is just too relaxed for her to use her brain.. she kept nodding off! LOL


You have to be creative with little dogs!:biggrin1:


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