# Help... do we keep her?



## ashleyb87

Hi there,

My boyfriend and I got a Havanese together last fall. She (Emma) is now 13 months old. We got her from someone selling her out of their backyard, she has maxed out at 8 pounds and we are pretty much positive she was from a puppy mill. Anyway, the past year of training her has been absolutely horrendous. I grew up with larger breeds so we hired a personal dog trainer to help us and have tried to do everything we can.

We have dealt with and are still dealing with:
- MAJOR separation anxiety, barking while we aren't home in her crate, she has a shock collar which she will bark through some days. Some days she is quiet but she randomly will just go berserk. We have come home to find her soaked in saliva (paws and face) and she claws MADLY at her crate for hours on end. (she is "crate trained" and has FINALLY started sleeping through the night in her crate) 
- We also dealt with her peeing in her crate for the first 6 months we had her and she still does it randomly which has baffled everyone as her crate is not too big, she sleeps in it every night and we even started giving her food to her in it.
- Submissive/excited peeing. We literally can't even look at her for half an hour after we come home without her peeing all over the floor. This has been going on since we got her. We ignore her, we don't get mad at her for doing it, etc. and it is still ongoing.
- Excessive agitation/excitability - she goes absolutely INSANE and i mean NUTS when someone comes to our house. She starts barking and whining, non stop jumping all over everyone and forgets ALL her commands, pees everywhere, etc. We have tried leaving her in her crate and not letting her greet people until she calms down but she NEVER calms down. Even if we leave her for an hour, the second someone even touches her she goes ballistic. We really thought this would slow down as she got older. She knows the OFF command but it doesn't stop her. She goes out on walks and socializes with other dogs fine. 
- Following around the house and inability to keep herself occupied EVER. We have tried shutting doors behind us when she tries to follow us into a room, etc. When we take her out for example for lunch on a patio and tie her up beside us, she won't sit for more than a second. It's like she sits and then forgets instantly because she is constantly so distracted and overstimulated.

She just doesn't seem to get it. Consistency doesn't work for her. Giving her tons of exercise doesn't work. Changing her food hasn't worked. We don't know what to do anymore, it is a constant stress to deal with her. We love her a lot but would like to see a light at the end of the tunnel with all this behaviour.

Sorry for the long post but any insight would be great.


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## HavaneseSoon

I am so sorry you have had a rough time. Havs are companion pets and they love to be around their owners. How much time are you home? The first year of owning a Hav requires lots of patience and training in the first year, my opinion. 
((((Hugs to you and you Hav)))) 

Please get rid of the shock collar.


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## ashleyb87

She is alone for about 8 hours a day. After doing more research (after we got her) we learned that she likely would have been more suited to someone who was home all the time. We try to give her loads of attention in the evenings/weekends when we are home.

Do you have a suggestion on what to do instead of the shock collar? We have been warned by our Strata already about the noise and have tried everything else before we got the collar.... it seems to be the only thing that has slown down her barking. We can't afford the fine or eviction. We are talking 8 hours straight of relentless barking. We give her kongs full of peanut butter, toys, tried covering her crate, putting it in other rooms, leaving music on, etc etc etc!


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## mamacjt

Personally, I really think you need to find her a home where someone will be home all day to love her. My heart breaks at her distress and anxiety and it doesn't seem to be getting any better. Truly, I feel badly for all of you, but a shock collar?????? Oh my!


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## Tuss

Have you tried getting up earlier in the morning and taking her for a long long walk/run before you go to work so she's completely exhausted and will sleep? Do you come home at lunch to let her out? 8 hours is a long time for a small dog.

Is she crated all day for 8 hours, then crated again all night? that's 16 hours/day in her crate; no wonder she's crazy for those few hours she's out.

What about doggie daycare? Are there any good reasonably priced daycares near you where you can drop her off in the morning on your way to work and pick her up on your way home, where she'll get to be around people and dogs and bark as much as she likes?

I'm sorry this isn't working out for you. It might be good to rehome her; doesn't sound like she is the right dog for your family.


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## whimsy

had to be so blunt...but she needs new owners.


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## angiern2004

Don't know what to tell you about the separation anxiety, but I agree that doggie daycare sounds like a good option. Havanese are Velcro dogs that don't love anything more than humans and playing. Sounds like an extreme case of separation anxiety. Something needs to change. Start with throwing the shock collar in the dumpster and start considering other options for daytime care. 

Peeing in the crate...8 hours a day is a long time to be cooped up, especially considering you should be providing water. So let's say she sleeps 8 hours at night, gets let out for a very short time in the morning while you're getting ready for work, goes back into the crate (hopefully you're giving water all this time) for another 8 hours, and then she's out in the evening. That's peeing twice in 16 hours, while drinking also. Can you do that yourself? Don't expect your dog to. Their bladders are not big. I'm not sure why it's baffling that a small dog simply can't hold their bladder that long! If you left something out, like you come home at lunch to let her out, then I apologize right now, but your OP didn't make it sound like you do. 

Submissive peeing...if its just when you get home in the evening, maybe her bladder is so full that she can't hold it a second more, and certainly not through the excitement that humans are home? Do you take her straight out? Sounds like another argument for letting her out at lunch or taking her to daycare or at least hiring some at-home neighbor to come let her out. 

Jumping on everyone when they come over...your girl is still a puppy with all kinds of overflowing energy. Nothing's more exciting than more humans coming over to play right? (that's from Trooper's parrogative anyway...always thinks the people at the door are there seeing HIM...). There are ways to train this to get better, but it does not involve hollering commands as the people are coming over. Training for that starts wayyyyyyyyy before people come over...there are steps to take to practice before anyone comes over. And when they do come over its imperative to train your guests to ignore it all, not feed into it. There are many steps in training that behavior, and I'm not going to list them here, but it sounds like you need a new trainer, and to do research into finding the right one first. 

More on excitability...your dog gets human contact maybe 8 hours a day, depending on how long you really sleep, commute, and work. What do you expect to happen when her humans ate finally home?? Let's use Trooper as an example here. Under general circumstances, someone is home with Trooper 24/7, the exception is when we run errands as a family or go to my stepsons football games, that's about it. He sleeps all night with my hubby (I work nights), he spends the day with my hubby while I'm sleeping, and he STILL goes ballistic when I wake up in the afternoon. And he HAS someone home with him all the time. I don't even want to know what he'd do if he were by himself as long on a daily basis as your girl is. I think he'd keel over from an excitement-heart-attack. Some just have that personality. Some are more laid back than others, but don't forget she's a PUPPY still...an adolescent, but still a puppy. 

Following you around...Havs are Velcro dogs and that's what they do. If you thought you could pee with privacy ever again, you're sorely mistaken. If you didn't know they are like this before you got her, I'd like to know how much reading you've done about the breed. 

Oh, she gets it all right. She gets it loud and clear, she spends more time in a box than interacting with her humans and she savors every minute. Then she gets excited when more people come over because that's more people to play with for the short time she gets. 
She doesn't do anything wrong from what I read, she needs more attention and more training, both in her behavior and potty departments, but it doesn't sound like you really have the time for that. Jumping on people and potting all over are training issues. Training takes diligence and repetition and more repetition and more repetition. And then sometime in adolescence they take a backslide in training and it takes more diligence and more repetition and more repetition and more repetition. The rest of what you said are Hav personality variables). 

IMO, you already made up your mind and you're just looking for validation that it's ok to rehome her.


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## Lizzie'sMom

Wow, I echo what everyone else has written. Why, why, why, does it bother you that she follows you around??? The poor thing is locked up day and night and when you are home it sounds as if you don't want to interact with her. Lizzie follows me EVERYWHERE. I am always in her line of sight and I am home with her daily. I agree the poor girl needs a new home, but I really hate to see her sitting in a shelter somewhere. This is so sad.


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## Dory

whimsy said:


> had to be so blunt...but she needs new owners.


Ditto!


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## Miss Paige

I agree with others-for the peace of mind for you & the happiness for your puppy I think the best decision would be to rehome her. If you got her from a breeder with a contract please contact the breeder to see if they are willing to take her back-if not or no contract Please contact either HALO-or HRI.


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## HalleBerry

My heart breaks to read this - I'm no expert, but Halle (who just turned 9 months) is such a joy... she wakes up happy to just be with us. 

Have you thought about a larger crate for Emma, so you can give her a litter box or pee pads during the day? Have you looked into doggie day care, so she's not alone all day? What about diapers, so she can sleep with you without worry of peeing in the bed and get more contact with you? Poor thing does sound desperate.... and if it's come to the point where she irritates you more than she brings you happiness, then it is time to place her. Maybe this is not the breed for you - these wonderful creatures are VERY different from large breed dogs (and I also have great danes). I can tell you that just thinking about Halle brings a smile to my face... she is everything I didn't even know that I wanted in a Havanese.


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## luv3havs

You have tried your best with her and it is not working. 
She really needs a home where someone is home most of the day.
Please take the advice of those who have suggested that you find a new home for her.


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## lise

Miss Paige said:


> I agree with others-for the peace of mind for you & the happiness for your puppy I think the best decision would be to rehome her. If you got her from a breeder with a contract please contact the breeder to see if they are willing to take her back-if not or no contract Please contact either HALO-or HRI.


Ditto, don't think about it, just do it. Your home life is not good for a dog, I'm sure you are very nice people but Havanese need people. They were bred to be that way. I spent years researching the breed and now that I have one, I still am learning.
I never purchased a dog until I started working from home. Mine gets 1 1/2 hours of play and exercise in the morning before he goes in his pen til about 11am while I work in my office. I then take him out and he gets another long walk and then lunch. He follows me every where but I think thats endearing although he does wait for me outside the door when I go to the bathroom! Around 1:30 he goes back in the pen for about 1 1/2 hours while I go to my office again. Thats a total all day of maybe 4 hours tops in a pen, not a crate. I feel guilty about that even though he is snoozing away! I can't imagine a sweet little dog in a crate for 8 hours and with a collar on that zaps it if it dares to complain
Please call Halo or any other rescue place today!


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## Suzi

Why does she have to be in a cage all day? Try blocking off your kitchen and give her some room to play. Maybe a kitten would help keep her company? Any way it sounds more like you cant handle the situation in your apartment it does sound like it would be better to find a new home.  I'm sorry it hasn't worked out.


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## krandall

I agree with most of the other people who have posted. I'm not sure any dog could live under these circumstances and be calm and happy, but this is a recipe for misery for a small companion breed like a Havanese. 

A shock collar is a toture device that, IMO, shouldn't be used on ANY dog, let alone a small, "soft tempered" breed like a Havanese. No wonder she is so anxious when she finally sees you. She has spent the day in a box with a torture device!

I believe you got this puppy (and at 13 months, she still IS a puppy) with the best of intentions. I believe that you have tried your best with her, but you have received some HORRID advice from trainer out of the Dark Ages (obviously the person's training methods aren't working for you!). In some situations, I would say find a good positive-based trainer to help you with your dog. But I think, in this case, the situation is just too broken. 

There are ways to help a dog feel more comfortable at home alone, (which is what prevents barking!) but in this case, where the behavior is so ingrained, I think it would take longer than your housing arrangement and work schedule can give you. Likewise, while daycare could help with the barking problem, it would take a HUGE committment on your part to fix the damage that has already been done to your relationship with this little dog.

I really think the best solution for both you AND this little one is to put her in the hands of Havanese Rescue, where she can live in a foster home with a knowledgeable Havanese owner and other balanced dogs until she can relax and learn how to be a calm, happy, household pet. At that point, she can be placed in the right "forever" home. 

Don't feel like you are doing something horrible for giving her up. You made a mistake getting the wrong type of dog, at the wrong time in your life. While I HATE the training methods your current trainer has had you use, you are to be commended for TRYING to get professional help. All of this will stand you in good stead as a learning experience when you eventually are at the right point in your lives for another dog. Maybe it will be a lovely Havanese, if you have the time to give one all the attention it requires, or maybe you will choose a breed that is a little more independent. But you will know a lot more than you did this time around! In the mean time, as long as you put her in the hands of one of the Havanese rescue organizations, (rather than surrendering her to a shelter) you can rest easy that she will end up in a loving home, especially since she seems to have a wonderful, loving temperament under her layers of anxiety.


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## Dory

Bravo, Karen! :clap2:
:hug:

:grouphug:


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## lfung5

I'm sorry but it upsets me when people buy dogs on a whim, don't do their homework and then are unhappy with the dog. Havanese are bred to be with people and are Velcro dogs. It's not fair to leave them crated and alone for hours on end and then ignore them when you get home. I don't even want to tell you how I feel about a shock collar.... Please do the right thing and call havanese rescue. This dog deserves someone who has time for her.


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## Kathie

Ashley, it seems to me you have given this situation a long time to resolve and it is just not working out for you or the dog. Havanese Rescue has resources to prepare your dog for a home that will be a good match for him. I urge you to consider this and don't consider yourselves a failure - just not a good fit for this particular dog.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Where are you located? Perhaps there is someone on the forum who lives close to you who can help you rehome her...she really needs someone who can be home with her, and you did not know that. Don't feel bad, just think of what is best for her. HRI or HALO can help you, but if you live close to someone on the forum they may be able to talk with you too..I know it is not easy...but it will only get harder. Please do not take her to a shelter.. I will help you if you need help to get her into a home or appropriate rescue....just let me know.


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## Luciledodd

Well I would take her in a minute. However you wouldn't want to face me. Get the dog a new owner immediately and for Pete's sake don't get another to keep in jail . Some people are not suited to have a dog.


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## lfung5

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> Where are you located? Perhaps there is someone on the forum who lives close to you who can help you rehome her...she really needs someone who can be home with her, and you did not know that. Don't feel bad, just think of what is best for her. HRI or HALO can help you, but if you live close to someone on the forum they may be able to talk with you too..I know it is not easy...but it will only get harder. Please do not take her to a shelter.. I will help you if you need help to get her into a home or appropriate rescue....just let me know.


Me too! I'm near Philly!!


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

I am on a chrome browser having trouble with my IE, and I cannot PM anyone..does anyone else on Chrome have that problem? I was trying to PM about this but could not, hence my post above..


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## ashleyb87

Ok, I feel I need to clarify a few things. 
1) I live in Vancouver, BC, Canada and know about 25 other people who have dogs that are kept crated or left alone at home while their owners are at work. No, it is NOT the perfect scenario for a dog but we are doing our best. I had a month off work when we first got her then for 2 months we had a walker come every day to let her out. We then transitioned her to a pen with pads because her bladder wasn't ready for 8 hours.
2) We have tried to transition her to roaming the house while we are out. This has been OK a few times but she finds cords and things to chew on that aren't her toys (even in 30 minutes!)
3) The past month or so we have stopped making her sleep in her crate - she is only in a crate from 9am to 5pm. 
4) Her bladder control is great now aside from a few random pees on the bed which i think were just from her being stressed after we'd gone on holiday (and taken her with us). The peeing in her crate was a behavioural issue - it was happening when we went out even right after she went out to pee. 
5) She has access to water every minute she is not crated. She is often not interested in water whatsoever when we get home from work.
4) We are very diligent about giving her loads of attention. I was told that to try to teach your dog to be independent IE: not to follow us around the house, would help with her separation anxiety during the day!
5) She is a very happy dog, gets TONS of love and playtime when we are home and we always tucker her right out with exercise before bedtime. 
6) The shock collar was a last resort - as I said, we were threatened with fines from our building because of the noise. I did a lot of research on the collars and consulted 2 trainers who said as a last resort it's worth trying. The dog eventually can wear the collar with no batteries because it actually teaches them not to bark excessively. 8 hours of barking is more unhealthy for a dog than a shock collar. I realize a lot of people may not agree with this - I didn't before I did research on the collars.

My concern is the slowness with grasping things like not jumping on guests, chewing things that aren't her toys and the excited/submissive peeing - I say submissive because she puts her head down and actually squats rather than jumping around and piddling. Again we NEVER scold her that. I just thought there would be more progress by the 13 month point. Again, just looking for insight here. Is the fact that she is from a puppy mill affecting her development?

She has loads of toys, amazing food, a great groomer, and is spoiled rotten with snuggles (when we aren't at work between 9 and 5).

FYI: doggie daycare is $20/day here at the absolute cheapest. I had a rottweiler and german shepherd growing up who were perfectly fine at home for 8 hours, so obviously this breed is a learning experience for me with regards to training as well.


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## lfung5

Only 8 hrs????? These dogs are bred to be with people. Their sole purpose is to be your companion. 

My guys have a dog walker every 5 hrs I'm gone for an hour. They also have free run of the house, a dog door and fenced in yard. They get off leash hikes daily. Why even have a dog if they are crated all day and you can't afford a dog walker? It's not fair to the dog when people buy them and don't have enough time for them.


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## TilliesMom

thanks for clarifying a few things!

Do any of your 25 friends have a Havanese? As you are experiencing, this breed is NOT like a rottie or german shepherd in ANY way!!

I also can't imagine leaving my hav in a crate for "just 9am-5pm' every day ... I am wondering if you started her out with short stays in her crate. You said you were home for 2 months after you got her. Did you build up her time in small increments in the crate during your time home or were you with her all the time? 
It sounds like she is panicked and very fearful. Yes, I do think in a lot of ways coming from a puppy mill affects her, possibly more than you can realize. Did you see where she came from? How/where she was raised? IF she was born and raised in a crate with her mom and siblings with no human contact, she has THAT association with the crate and could be the reason why she has so much fear.

13 months is still young and she will mature more, BUT only with time and proper training. Havanese CAN BE amazing dogs, BUT they don't just 'happen' you HAVE to put the time and training in.
As for the jumping on people. My hav is 2 yrs old and we are working toward therapy dog certification and she STILL jumps on people 1/2 the time. She just can't control herself, she loves people SOOOOOOOOooo much... AND typically people 'reward' her jumping by petting her or cooing to her gently, even though I am telling her OFF at the same time! Consistancy is key, consistancy, love and time ...

These dogs are NOT like big breeds, they NEED thier people in a way that big dogs do not ... it sounds like you love her a lot ... maybe Dave (here on the forum) can help with a POSITIVE based trainer in your area that can help, if you are willing. 
BUT, honestly, if you think $20 a day is too much for daycare, can you afford a GOOD trainer?? Your baby is in crisis and things need to change one way or the other.

I hope you can make it work and that you and your hav can be happy together or that you can find someone to help, I think we actually have several members IN Vancouver! Hopefully they chime in soon!


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## ashleyb87

Thank you TilliesMom. That was more the type of response I was hoping for - knowing that yours is 2 and has the "can't control herself" thing makes me feel better. Good to have some perspective as I don't know ANYONE with a Havanese. And again, we have a ton of friends with dogs left alone for 8-10 hours so we just thought well we can make that work too!

We only saw her after she had obviously been given to the "broker" we bought her from. No idea what conditions were like before that unfortunately.

It is definitely challenging to get other people to cooperate with the jumping - it is pretty darn cute when she does it so she gets "rewarded" a lot. But it gets to be a bit much and according to our old trainer is a "rude" dog behaviour that should be corrected...

We can afford a good trainer, that's not the issue - it's more that the $20 a day for the rest of her life seems like a lot, we would rather have a long term solution where she can be alone roaming in the house from 9-5 because that seems more fair to her than a crate. 

I have tried to bring her to work with me a few times, but she goes totally nuts when clients come in to the office (whining and jumping), and can't be left alone at all if I have to go to a meeting because it's not her home so she starts barking almost right away. Would love to get to the point where she could come to work with me though.

I think a new trainer is in order. Any suggestions from Vancouver people would be greatly welcomed.


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## krandall

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> I am on a chrome browser having trouble with my IE, and I cannot PM anyone..does anyone else on Chrome have that problem? I was trying to PM about this but could not, hence my post above..


I got sick and tired of the fact that Norton felt the need to scan Chrome multiple times a day. I took it off my computer.


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## misstray

Havanese are companion animals. Being with their owner is what they are bred for and it is basically their job, much like herding is to a herding type of dog. Some people enjoy a dog always being there and others don't. I know when I was researching Havanese that this point was listed as a point of "this dog may not be for you if you don't like this". They don't call Havs "velcro dogs" for nothing. ha ha Basically, this is normal Hav behaviour so it probably won't change and trying to force it I don't think will make the dog more independent for when you have to leave her. Obviously there are individual variances among dogs.

I know there are people on here who do successfully leave their Havs for 8 hours a day while they work. I do believe, that typically, the Hav is left in an X-Pen setup with a crate, place for potty (pads or some sort of indoor system like Ugodog) and food and water inside the X-Pen. I sure as heck wouldn't be able to be confined to a small space with no place to go to the bathroom for 8 hours a day, but people do routinely expect that of their pets. I'd never really thought about that too much before I got Brody.

My boy is 19 months and I don't leave him in my apartment alone because I don't trust him to not bark non-stop. I've never been able to distract him with food and leave. He just ignores it until I come back and spends the time crying for me. I did try to work on it slowly with him, but didn't have much luck. In part this is because living in a rental apartment I don't have the luxury to let him "bark it out". 

He comes to work with me (I'm lucky in being able to do this and this was the plan before I got him) where I have him in an X-Pen setup - out of the X-Pen at work he just goes nuts at everyone coming in. He's definitely much calmer in it. He's been exposed to this ever since I got him, so time and a steady dose of people coming and going isn't changing it. 

He jumps up on people a lot and really has no idea that some people might not like dogs! He is so exuberant meeting people; he loves everyone and just expects it in return. Some of this is my fault because I don't really discourage jumping up for pats because some days my back is sore and it's easier to pet him when he meets me part way! I can't really comment on the peeing because Brody doesn't typically do this. Occasionally if he is overdue to go to the bathroom and one of the guys at work gets him riled up or rough-houses with him and startles him or makes him nervous then he'll pee a bit. 

When I need to do errands I typically drop him off at work and then go back and get him. He can bark his head off there without disturbing anyone when the shop is closed.

Dave on here will probably be able to give you suggestions on good positive breeders in your area. Havanese are definitely soft dogs and need a gentle approach. (Okay sometimes I don't believe this about Brody, but in my heart I know it's true).


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## Gabs

I personally think getting a good trainer (maybe ask your vet for suggestions) to come to your house would be worth a try to evaluate her and her personality matched with your lifestyle... A trainer means a lot of time and dedication on everyone's part, but if you are able to put in the time and the trainer feels it's possible to help her, I'd try it. Then you'll know your answer once she's been looked at, and I hope that would bring you some peace.

Althou they are dogs that are attached to people and LOVE people, that by no way means that they need to have people around 24/7 ... many of us need to work outside the home and do so just fine (with lunch time breaks, walkers etc). It highlights the importance of not only choosing the right breed of dog, but also the right personality within the breed (which is what a good breeder would do, seeing your baby girl didnt have that you cannot blame yourself)

My Gabby is over a year and she gets super excited when people come into the house, she barks and jumps all over them until they get down to her level and pat her, rub her belly and play with her -- she loves people (and people love her). She follows me around the house... I know where ever I am, shes not far behind. With that being said she has absolutely no problem being alone in the house, and always has full access to roam the house. 

If you really want to make this work it's without a doubt time to find a good, qualified trainer who is willing to come to your home and evaluate her and provide you with advice on what is best for your girl.


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## davetgabby

Sometimes we have to admit that we have more than we can handle. This in my opinion is the case. Way too many issues that need to be resolved. These are the type of dogs that generally when surrendered to humane societies get put down. And sometimes this is quite appropriate. When a dog is in next to constant stress and fear it is not a good thing for an animal to continue. If you choose to surrender to HRI or similar rescue it has to be re homed with someone who is experienced in dealing with these issues. This dog needs an expert in more ways than one. To re home to just anyone is totally inappropriate and will not benefit the dog. I wouldn't even recommend a trainer for you personally, your situation and knowledge aren't getting the dog relief.


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## krandall

ashleyb87 said:


> Ok, I feel I need to clarify a few things.
> 1) I live in Vancouver, BC, Canada and know about 25 other people who have dogs that are kept crated or left alone at home while their owners are at work. No, it is NOT the perfect scenario for a dog but we are doing our best. I had a month off work when we first got her then for 2 months we had a walker come every day to let her out. We then transitioned her to a pen with pads because her bladder wasn't ready for 8 hours.
> 2) We have tried to transition her to roaming the house while we are out. This has been OK a few times but she finds cords and things to chew on that aren't her toys (even in 30 minutes!)
> 3) The past month or so we have stopped making her sleep in her crate - she is only in a crate from 9am to 5pm.
> 4) Her bladder control is great now aside from a few random pees on the bed which i think were just from her being stressed after we'd gone on holiday (and taken her with us). The peeing in her crate was a behavioural issue - it was happening when we went out even right after she went out to pee.
> 5) She has access to water every minute she is not crated. She is often not interested in water whatsoever when we get home from work.
> 4) We are very diligent about giving her loads of attention. I was told that to try to teach your dog to be independent IE: not to follow us around the house, would help with her separation anxiety during the day!
> 5) She is a very happy dog, gets TONS of love and playtime when we are home and we always tucker her right out with exercise before bedtime.
> 6) The shock collar was a last resort - as I said, we were threatened with fines from our building because of the noise. I did a lot of research on the collars and consulted 2 trainers who said as a last resort it's worth trying. The dog eventually can wear the collar with no batteries because it actually teaches them not to bark excessively. 8 hours of barking is more unhealthy for a dog than a shock collar. I realize a lot of people may not agree with this - I didn't before I did research on the collars.
> 
> My concern is the slowness with grasping things like not jumping on guests, chewing things that aren't her toys and the excited/submissive peeing - I say submissive because she puts her head down and actually squats rather than jumping around and piddling. Again we NEVER scold her that. I just thought there would be more progress by the 13 month point. Again, just looking for insight here. Is the fact that she is from a puppy mill affecting her development?
> 
> She has loads of toys, amazing food, a great groomer, and is spoiled rotten with snuggles (when we aren't at work between 9 and 5).
> 
> FYI: doggie daycare is $20/day here at the absolute cheapest. I had a rottweiler and german shepherd growing up who were perfectly fine at home for 8 hours, so obviously this breed is a learning experience for me with regards to training as well.


You know, I tried to give you a compassionate, reasoned response to your original post, which was titled, "Help...do we keep her?". It really sounded like you were soul-searching whether you were the right home for this pup or not. If you DO want to keep her, you really need to up your game with a good, positive-based trainer AND lose that e-collar. It MAY keep her from barking... I guarantee it is making everything worse, no matter WHAT you have read.

The trouble is because of the bad start she has already had, being able to control the barking within a time period that will keep you from getting in trouble with your landlord or HOA is unlikely. She is going to require LONG and CAREFUL rehabilitation which is harder and more time-consuming than initial correct training.

This is why I suggested rescue if you can't afford day care for her. And $20 a day really isn't that huge an investment in a well balanced dog that is fun to be with. I pay approximately $90 per week on training fees for my performance dog who competes in Obedience and Agility... And this is for "extras"... He is already a well-balanced pleasant, well behaved member of our family. Oh, and he was still a bit of a hellion at 13 months, even though he comes from a TOP breeder and had a wonderful start in life. As I said before, a 13 month old is still only a big puppy. Dogs aren't really mature until they are at least 2 years old.


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## ashleyb87

@davetgabby - could you elaborate a bit more on why you think she should be rehomed and not bother with a trainer? What do you think is the cause of all the issues? Lack of training or us leaving her too much, or just not doing it right?

Thanks =)


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## Thumper

Sure, alot of dogs can be left at home for 8 hours a day without issue, but Havanese are going to have a major issues with that, I think the term 'companion animal' isn't taken as literally as it should be, some breeds are bred to hunt, others to track, some to service, etc. and while all dogs are 'companions', Havanese are truly wired to want to be with people as much as they can be. I have been a member on this forum since almost its inception and I have seen alot of posts like this and many Hav-parents that work often end up buying another Hav to keep #1 company and/or going the daycare route, mostly, they contract MHS (Multiple Havanese Syndrome )

I work from home and help my DH at his office once a week and I take her to work with me, I am fortunate to be with her most of the time, but when I do leave, she will sit at the front door and watch for me to come home, no matter if the house is full of other family members, she is just focused on me 24/7 and follows me to the bathroom and downstairs in the middle of the night for water, that is just how most Havanese are, velcro dogs.

In a perfect world, there would be an app where you put in your family's schedule and personality and living situation and then the app would spit out the perfect breed for the family/person, it seems like what happens is that some families just pick breeds that aren't well suited for their family, not that there is anything wrong with the family, or with the dog, but they are just not a good match for each other, I get the impression that you'd mesh better with a lower maintenance breed, Havanese aren't even close to low maintainence, they might be one of the highest maintenance breeds in the world.

I really hope you don't feel attacked or judged, I know the members of this forum ,and they are very compassionate about the breed and it's hard to hear about problems such as these, but I know everyone here has the best intentions to help. Honestly, I think rehoming might be something to consider if you have already sought help from trainers, I hope you find your answers and there are many members here that are in Canada who can assist or help point you in the direction you choose for your family and your pup.

Kara


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## davetgabby

ashleyb87 said:


> @davetgabby - could you elaborate a bit more on why you think she should be rehomed and not bother with a trainer? What do you think is the cause of all the issues? Lack of training or us leaving her too much, or just not doing it right?
> 
> Thanks =)


yeah , pretty much all of the above. A trainer will be needed , but in conjunction with better home circumstances. The dog needs a lot of work and I don't think you are the one to do it. I don't mean to be evasive, but you haven't progressed but regressed. Issues such as you've mentioned don't go away or get better on their own. This is why I always recommend help early on if someone has issues that they can't address. Your dog needs a lot of care and this involves some serious time .


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## lfung5

I just feel sorry for your dog. I hope you decide to let HRI find her a home that suits her. Seems you are trying to mold her to fit into your life........But your life is not ideal for a havanese. I work varied hours, so I don't need a dog walker everyday. A lot of my days are short days. But I would say I pay my dog sitter an average of 100.00 a week. If you want a companion dog and have a full time job, a dog walker or daycare is a must. If not, why not get a rabbit? If 20.00 a day is too much, what if the dog should need surgery? My guys are young and I've spent over 10,000 in surgeries alone. These are all things that should have been considered BEFORE bringing a puppy home...It would be nice if you could really take a look at your situation and accept the fact that your home & lifestyle are not ideal for this dog.


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## marlowe'sgirl

It is possible to have a Hav and work 8 hrs a day. I'm one of those people. I've work very hard to get my Hav to that point though. On the front end, I got him from an excellent breeder, so he came without any issues and was crate trained (it was his safe place). We did weekly positive reinforcement based classes until he was 1.5 yrs old (ran out of classes to do; deciding what direction to go now). We went to puppy play sessions until he got his shots, then moved to the small dog park 3-4x a week. We start the day with a really long walk; he gets walks sometimes at lunch (daily the first yr until he started refusing them), and always when home from work and before bed (easily over 1hr a day on our short days). He spends 1 day a week at a doggie daycare where he is adored. We slowly transitioned him from crated when we're away to progressively more rooms of our house (he got full reign at 2 yrs old and our place is puppy proofed with lots of toys/alternative chewing options and things like cords taped down, paper/shoes not in his reach). My non-work life essentially revolves around my pup though and my pup is not alone! He spends all day napping/playing/wrestling with his bff - my cat. 

To make choice to get a companion dog and work full-time requires a lot of forethought, planning, sacrifices, flexibility, time and $$$. You need the deck stacked in your favor from well before you get the pup. 

It sounds like the deck was not in your favor - from a puppy mill with unknown upbringing, not a positive reinforcement training situation and likely as a consequence, not the right attitude about training. Your attitude should be - it's my fault for not communicating clearly with my Hav, he's just confused and trying his best - NOT he's just not getting it, what's wrong with him. Not screwing up a puppy from a good breeder is a LOT easier than helping an anxious puppy mill dog adjust to home life or rehabilitating a dog with a lot of bad habits reinforced for a year's time. 

It sounds like you do not have the time/resources to get yourself and your pup out of your current situation and into a place of a happy, balanced dog who is a joyful part of your family. Submissive peeing means a lot of anxiety as does barking for 8 hrs in a crate (that is NOT crate trained, crate trained means it's their happy, quiet, maybe hide from grooming space). Rehabilitating that much anxiety is not easy and is why so many are suggesting that yes you should rehome (through HRI or HALO). Jumping on guests and chewing on things he shouldn't (why does he have access to them) are pretty minor and I think easily correctable with the right trainer and attitude.


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## ashleyb87

It's been really helpful to hear so much reassurance about Havs being velcro dogs and really excitable with people and it being normal and not something you can "train out". I definitely didn't do as much research as I should have before getting her because I wasn't aware of that. I also didn't understand the concept of "companion dog" obviously. The chewing and jumping are the least of my concerns at this point - I am more worried about her separation anxiety and submissive peeing.

If someone with knowledge about the breed who I trusted said to me, you can't have a Hav unless you're willing to pay $400/month in doggy daycare, otherwise rehome to someone who is home all the time, then we would make that decision. We hired a trainer who really seemed to know what they were doing and was based on a recommendation, but obviously we didn't get the guidance we needed. I am getting now after reading everyone's replies that some dogs are higher maintenance breeds than others.

I get that she's confused and so am I. Again, I have never had a dog BE so confused (I realize now her breed makes her very different and it was ignorant of me to think she would be like the larger breed dogs I've had) which is why I was wondering if she was maybe a bit slow/genetically different due to the puppy mill situation.

I don't know why the crate hasn't become her safe place - we tried every trick in the book we could find!! treats, covering it in blankets, putting in our old tshirts, etc etc. Obviously an issue that needs to be worked on. I've heard of anti-anxiety medications for dogs - but is that just a way to not fix a real problem?

I appreciate everyone's input. We will have to sit down and look at the situation. The problem is that we are OBSESSED with her. Like, madly in love. So rehoming her would be very difficult, but if it ends up being best for her we will do it.

Here's a pic of her... look at that face.


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## Tuss

I feel bad, you obviously love your dog and this is a tough situation. It's hard to really get a solid grasp on your situation over an internet forum.

I work full time (sometimes 80+ hours a week) and manage to make it work with 2 dogs. I live close to work and get home at lunch time some days, on my really long days I send her daycare (only about 1 day a week). On days when i'm stuck at work all day and can't get home, and haven't arranged daycare then I make sure the dogs get a long walk before I leave for work and a long long walk and play session after, when I get home. I have friends that can stop by in cases of emergency and a few other options like that. It takes a lot of time to organize, but for me it's worth it because I love having dogs.

I think you have to do make some hard decisions. Don't make them lightly. Get as many opinions and input as you can. If rehoming the dog is the best option then do it and don't feel guilty. If you can find a way to make things work and keep your dog then great. You just can't go on as you are; not healthy for the dog or for you.

Best of luck to you!


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## HavaneseSoon

She is a cute as can be. My boys still jump on everyone, they are crazy with excitement to most people who walk through the door. Jumping etc., Jack was always very submissive, often peeing when my husband touched him. Jack has outgrown that behavior thank goodness, a long time ago. 

Remember to praise all good behavior. You want more good things coming from you compared to the word No! Read up on behavior, body language and everything you can get your hands on. Knowledge is power.


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## LindsC

This is so sad for me to read in many respects. I'm no expert, for sure, but I don't see why you couldn't try a positive trainer and commit to devoting your evenings and weekends to training for the next few months. Also, maybe change her living space, a little. Again, I'm not a hav expert, but it sure seems that you love your pup and want to make it work.

My first hav is now 5 months. I am an attorney and am gone 9 hours a day. But, I was told by VERY reputable breeders that my situation would be okay for a havanese b/c they get used to what they are given. My mom also has a 3 year old hav so I was familiar with the breed. Despite my being gone during the day, my Teddy has a wonderful life and is a very good boy!

Since day one my pup's condo consists of two ex-pens connected and also connected to a crate, with an ugo dog, a bed, water and lots of toys. I do have someone come and let him out into the backyard and/or walk him for about a half an hour a day ($10 per visit). Try to find a high school, college or elderly person you can trust. I hope to eventually wean off of this somewhat, once he has free reign of the downstairs. 

He also plays with my mom's dogs, a hav and a cockapoo, usually twice a week (one evening and saturday or sunday). He only started barking, ever, a couple weeks ago and only barks if someone is coming to the door. He does not bark when I leave or come home. While he enjoys being with me and gets lots of love, he is also very independent. He loves to hang in the backyard and chew sticks by himself. Interestingly, the whole night while I am home he is not that near me (in fact I wish he would snuggle more), but he is off playing and chewing on his tendons and him chews. I don't know, maybe I got really lucky with an amazingly quiet and well behaved Hav or maybe its the large area he is in all day, plus the one let out - that is at least somewhere to start. I guess you would have to get a trainer to assess the submissive peeing issue, but there are a few other simple changes you could make to try to allow her to be more comfortable and hopefully calmer as a result.

Hugs and prayers to you and good luck with your decision.


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## lfung5

I see why you are having conflict! She is adorable and it would be so hard to give her away.

Just so you know, I know a breeder who will not sell you a havanese puppy if you work more than 3 hours a day. Honestly, I do THINK my guys would be fine alone for 8 hours. But that is because I worked with them and they are very comfortable being alone. Plus, they aren't crated and have access to the yard and water. I watched them and they sleep most of the time I am away from the house. Still I wouldn't dream of leaving them for the 8 hours. I just don't think it's fair. I didn't buy dogs to leave them alone all day long. 

If you decide to work on keeping her and making some changes on your end, I would first start with a positive dog trainer. The shock collar has to go. I have never raised a hand to my guys and they are pretty good besides jumping up on people. These dogs don't need shock collars or physical force to make them behave. They are a sensitive breed.

You must also make some sacrifices. Get up at least 30-60 min early and take her for a long walk. When you get home, do the same. I get up early and hike my dogs in the am and still have the dog walker come mid day. Then I walk them again at night if I think they need it. 

Get an x pen, which is larger than a crate. Put the crate in the x pen with the door open. Put water, toys, and a pee pad in there. You can keep a radio on and the t shirt is also good. And do consider a mid day dog walker at least a few days a week.....compromise


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## angiern2004

ashleyb87 said:


> It's been really helpful to hear so much reassurance about Havs being velcro dogs and really excitable with people and it being normal and not something you can "train out". I definitely didn't do as much research as I should have before getting her because I wasn't aware of that. I also didn't understand the concept of "companion dog" obviously. The chewing and jumping are the least of my concerns at this point - I am more worried about her separation anxiety and submissive peeing.
> 
> If someone with knowledge about the breed who I trusted said to me, you can't have a Hav unless you're willing to pay $400/month in doggy daycare, otherwise rehome to someone who is home all the time, then we would make that decision. We hired a trainer who really seemed to know what they were doing and was based on a recommendation, but obviously we didn't get the guidance we needed. I am getting now after reading everyone's replies that some dogs are higher maintenance breeds than others.
> 
> I get that she's confused and so am I. Again, I have never had a dog BE so confused (I realize now her breed makes her very different and it was ignorant of me to think she would be like the larger breed dogs I've had) which is why I was wondering if she was maybe a bit slow/genetically different due to the puppy mill situation.
> 
> I don't know why the crate hasn't become her safe place - we tried every trick in the book we could find!! treats, covering it in blankets, putting in our old tshirts, etc etc. Obviously an issue that needs to be worked on. I've heard of anti-anxiety medications for dogs - but is that just a way to not fix a real problem?
> 
> I appreciate everyone's input. We will have to sit down and look at the situation. The problem is that we are OBSESSED with her. Like, madly in love. So rehoming her would be very difficult, but if it ends up being best for her we will do it.
> 
> Here's a pic of her... look at that face.


Just a few things...

You can train them to not jump on people. However, it takes a lot more than telling them no, off, or down at the time they are doing it. It starts wayyyyyy before having visitors come over, even. This requires positive reward training.

Second of all, my first post in this thread was merely explaining that some of what you complain about is their personality, some of it is deflecting the idea that they can do what all friends' big dogs do, and some of it was hypothesizing about what some of the peeing could be about based on the limited info you provided about the daytime situation so far. I'm glad you came back to clarify some things. I apologized in my first post if I made any wrong assumptions based on what you had said so far, and I really did mean it.

Third, the "have to pay for daycare to own a Hav" thing is not true. It just so happens that it was suggested by many for YOUR situation, given your puppy's questionable history and behavior while you're gone. Don't forget that you don't know the true history of her, and she could have come from a place where they kept her crated all the time, and that's why she panicks in one. Some Havs have more issue with separation anxiety than others, and her history may be contributory to it.

It boils down to this...
It is very very different getting a puppy from a breeder that has started out the puppy in a positive, loving home that puts the puppy on the path to being well-adjusted with continued love and training and getting a puppy from a questionable situation that was probably a puppy mill (where they don't potty train at all by the way) who never got the love, attention, or start on training that they deserve. It requires hundred-fold more patience, devotion, hours of training, hours spent loving a dog that comes from a puppy mill. Time spent training a puppy to do everything right that has no bad habits is a job in itself, training a puppy mill puppy is a hundred jobs because you have to undo the bad behaviors and then train the correct ones. It all boils down to what is needed for YOUR puppy and not everyone else's puppy here. Sure there are a lot of people on the forums that work the hours you do and are successful in leaving their dog home, but those puppies were started off that way and trained to those behaviors from the start, not just thrown into the situation. In addition, your puppy was never potty trained, and just putting her in a crate or in a pen with papers and expecting her to know what to do is asking way too much...you have to start out like she's a brand new puppy and take responsibility for training her to know where to go, when to go, which involves taking her out or to her paper yourself often just like if she was 10 weeks.

I think the reason Dave will not suggest training in your situation is that you have a deck stacked against you here...a puppy that has questionable history and has too many issues for you to be able to tackle given your work schedule. I wouldn't say that Havanese is not the breed for you, more that this puppy may not be right for you. Simply not a good match. I think you would be having a completely different experience if you would have gotten a puppy from a reputable breeder (or even a rescue dog that has had time put in to work on issues before placement), and even then matching the right dog to you is KEY, not just picking the cutest one of the bunch.

Deciding not to rehome her because she's cute as button is really doing her an injustice. She needs a home with a lifestyle best for her, with people that are experienced with rehabilitation, not just training. All Havs are cute. All of them. So if you decide to rehome her for her, and decide to give Havanese another go, make sure you find one that's a match to your situation, and already on a road to success and well-adjustment, so that you can put in the training to continue that. You simply don't have a lifestyle suited for rehabilitating a dog with as many complex issues as your girl.


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## krandall

ashleyb87 said:


> I don't know why the crate hasn't become her safe place - we tried every trick in the book we could find!! treats, covering it in blankets, putting in our old tshirts, etc etc. Obviously an issue that needs to be worked on. I've heard of anti-anxiety medications for dogs - but is that just a way to not fix a real problem?


Why should she like her crate? She is stuck there for hours each day with no companionship, and a SHOCK collar on!!!!

In your original message, you wrote:



ashleyb87 said:


> MAJOR separation anxiety, barking while we aren't home in her crate, she has a shock collar which she will bark through some days. Some days she is quiet but she randomly will just go berserk. We have come home to find her soaked in saliva (paws and face) and she claws MADLY at her crate for hours on end.


These are signs of more than stress, they are signs of all-out panic! It is going to take more work than you could possibly guess to ever get her over that trauma.

I don't know how ANYONE (let alone someone who while well meaning, as misunderstood her so badly so far, and has allowed things to get to this state) could possibly rehab this dog while working full time. SHE is going to be a full-time project for someone for a LONG time, and she may NEVER be able to tolerate close confinement again. As Dave and I have both said, she needs to be in the hands of someone with TONS of time and patience, who already understands the breed.


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## waybrook

krandall said:


> I agree with most of the other people who have posted. I'm not sure any dog could live under these circumstances and be calm and happy, but this is a recipe for misery for a small companion breed like a Havanese.
> 
> A shock collar is a toture device that, IMO, shouldn't be used on ANY dog, let alone a small, "soft tempered" breed like a Havanese. No wonder she is so anxious when she finally sees you. She has spent the day in a box with a torture device!
> 
> I believe you got this puppy (and at 13 months, she still IS a puppy) with the best of intentions. I believe that you have tried your best with her, but you have received some HORRID advice from trainer out of the Dark Ages (obviously the person's training methods aren't working for you!). In some situations, I would say find a good positive-based trainer to help you with your dog. But I think, in this case, the situation is just too broken.
> 
> There are ways to help a dog feel more comfortable at home alone, (which is what prevents barking!) but in this case, where the behavior is so ingrained, I think it would take longer than your housing arrangement and work schedule can give you. Likewise, while daycare could help with the barking problem, it would take a HUGE committment on your part to fix the damage that has already been done to your relationship with this little dog.
> 
> I really think the best solution for both you AND this little one is to put her in the hands of Havanese Rescue, where she can live in a foster home with a knowledgeable Havanese owner and other balanced dogs until she can relax and learn how to be a calm, happy, household pet. At that point, she can be placed in the right "forever" home.
> 
> Don't feel like you are doing something horrible for giving her up. You made a mistake getting the wrong type of dog, at the wrong time in your life. While I HATE the training methods your current trainer has had you use, you are to be commended for TRYING to get professional help. All of this will stand you in good stead as a learning experience when you eventually are at the right point in your lives for another dog. Maybe it will be a lovely Havanese, if you have the time to give one all the attention it requires, or maybe you will choose a breed that is a little more independent. But you will know a lot more than you did this time around! In the mean time, as long as you put her in the hands of one of the Havanese rescue organizations, (rather than surrendering her to a shelter) you can rest easy that she will end up in a loving home, especially since she seems to have a wonderful, loving temperament under her layers of anxiety.


Excellent advice!


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## krandall

LindsC said:


> This is so sad for me to read in many respects. I'm no expert, for sure, but I don't see why you couldn't try a positive trainer and commit to devoting your evenings and weekends to training for the next few months. Also, maybe change her living space, a little. Again, I'm not a hav expert, but it sure seems that you love your pup and want to make it work.
> 
> My first hav is now 5 months. I am an attorney and am gone 9 hours a day. But, I was told by VERY reputable breeders that my situation would be okay for a havanese b/c they get used to what they are given. My mom also has a 3 year old hav so I was familiar with the breed. Despite my being gone during the day, my Teddy has a wonderful life and is a very good boy!
> 
> Since day one my pup's condo consists of two ex-pens connected and also connected to a crate, with an ugo dog, a bed, water and lots of toys. I do have someone come and let him out into the backyard and/or walk him for about a half an hour a day ($10 per visit). Try to find a high school, college or elderly person you can trust. I hope to eventually wean off of this somewhat, once he has free reign of the downstairs.
> 
> He also plays with my mom's dogs, a hav and a cockapoo, usually twice a week (one evening and saturday or sunday). He only started barking, ever, a couple weeks ago and only barks if someone is coming to the door. He does not bark when I leave or come home. While he enjoys being with me and gets lots of love, he is also very independent. He loves to hang in the backyard and chew sticks by himself. Interestingly, the whole night while I am home he is not that near me (in fact I wish he would snuggle more), but he is off playing and chewing on his tendons and him chews. I don't know, maybe I got really lucky with an amazingly quiet and well behaved Hav or maybe its the large area he is in all day, plus the one let out - that is at least somewhere to start. I guess you would have to get a trainer to assess the submissive peeing issue, but there are a few other simple changes you could make to try to allow her to be more comfortable and hopefully calmer as a result.
> 
> Hugs and prayers to you and good luck with your decision.


The problem is that Ashley feels that she has to leave the dog in a shock collar to keep her from barking during the day a it stands now. There is absolutely NO WAY that this dog can learn to trust and feel comfortable in her environment under these conditions. And it sounds like Ashley stands to lose her housing if she can't keep the dog quiet.

It sounds like you have carefully thought out how to handle things for your pup, and I'm glad it is working for you. It is MUCH easier to prevent problems with good planning, good training and proper management than it is to try to correct a major problem like this once it has been going on for a while.


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## HavaneseSoon

Ashley, Do you hear all our hearts breaking for your Hav? This will be..... a long drawn out rehab for your Hav. What are your plans?


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## Blue_Persuasion

lfung5 said:


> I'm sorry but it upsets me when people buy dogs on a whim, don't do their homework and then are unhappy with the dog. Havanese are bred to be with people and are Velcro dogs. It's not fair to leave them crated and alone for hours on end and then ignore them when you get home. I don't even want to tell you how I feel about a shock collar.... Please do the right thing and call havanese rescue. This dog deserves someone who has time for her.


Exactly!!! So many people treat dogs as a "one-size-fits-all," and they just aren't. Sporting dogs need space, and companion dogs need people. Bad move on getting a dog and then crating it all day and then being upset that it wants to be near you every second that you're home.


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## Blue_Persuasion

ashleyb87 said:


> Ok, I feel I need to clarify a few things.
> 1) I live in Vancouver, BC, Canada and know about 25 other people who have dogs that are kept crated or left alone at home while their owners are at work.


Again, not all dogs are "one-size-fits-all." Do they ALL have Havanese? Companion dogs cannot be crated like that. I got a Maltese from a rescue that was on his third owner when I got him (in fairness, the third was the rescue mom). It was VERY apparent that the first two crated him all day at the very least, and he was absolutely manic about crating or any type of confinement when I got him. His hatred of confinement was so bad that, by the age of 16 months (when I got him), he had chewed on a crate (or crates) so much that he had ground his bottom front biting teeth between the canines down to the gum. Maltese are also companion dogs.

The fact is, people truly need to research the type of dog they are interested in before purchasing. For instance, a very active sporting dog wouldn't do well in an apartment, either. They need room and exercise and stimulation. Certain breeds come with certain traits. It's up to US to not have our heads turned by every cute puppy out there and learn what would fit BEST in OUR families. Just because your friends crate their dogs does not mean that they have the same situation as you do.


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## Blue_Persuasion

ashleyb87 said:


> Ok, I feel I need to clarify a few things.
> 1) I live in Vancouver, BC, Canada and know about 25 other people who have dogs that are kept crated or left alone at home while their owners are at work.


Again, not all dogs are "one-size-fits-all." Do they ALL have Havanese? Companion dogs cannot be crated like that. I got a Maltese from a rescue that was on his third owner when I got him (in fairness, the third was the rescue mom). It was VERY apparent that the first two crated him all day at the very least, and he was absolutely manic about crating or any type of confinement when I got him. His hatred of confinement was so bad that, by the age of 16 months (when I got him), he had chewed on a crate (or crates) so much that he had ground his bottom front biting teeth between the canines down to the gum. Maltese are also companion dogs.

The fact is, people truly need to research the type of dog they are interested in before purchasing. For instance, a very active sporting dog wouldn't do well in an apartment, either. They need room and exercise and stimulation. Certain breeds come with certain traits. It's up to US to not have our heads turned by every cute puppy out there and learn what would fit BEST in OUR families. Just because your friends crate their dogs does not mean that they have the same situation as you do.


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## lfung5

For some reason I think she came her for advice but doesn't like the advice she is getting. Post after post she repeatedly got responses to call HRI. Then in her last reply it was if she wasn't hearing any of it and was set on making this dog fit in her life. As much as it makes me sick, her keeping this dog, I gave her a few tips to try since rescue didn't seem like an option....... Ugh.....
Everyone and everything people are saying is true. I woke up sick thinking this dog had been shocked for barking. Gives me the chills. I don't agree any havanese is right for her. I just hope she makes the right decision to do whats right for this pup or makes some major changes in her life!


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## ashleyb87

I appreciate everyone's advice. However, I am not going to make an immediate decision to rehome my very much loved dog. It's something I would like to put a bit of time and thought into which I think any of you would do if she was yours.

I am also not "set" on making her fit into my life. I am considering every option. She has been a part of our family for almost a year now, so if there are different things I should be doing, I would like to take responsibility for that and try some new things to improve the situation as the first option before rehoming. Which is why I came here.

I am not upset that she wants to be near me whenever I am home. I was told by our trainer that this was not a healthy behaviour (someone I trusted) so I have been going by that.

This forum is one of a few places I am going to seek advice from people who know what they are talking about. A good, new trainer is the next. Sorry that some of you may think I'm really terrible for not calling up a foster service tonight because my dog is left alone while we are at work.

My first post I wrote things we have dealt with/are dealing with I guess I should have specified.. A LOT of things have improved but we find they come up intermittently still. The excessive barking all day is not every single day (it used to be). Certain days it still happens and I'm not sure why - potentially not enough exercise that day or sounds in our building irritating her perhaps. It's just been one of the things we have been dealing with over the past year but it has definitely improved.

I should probably mention that my significant other doesn't understand the importance of consistency with training a dog, as well as the things we should be doing to help with her anxiety, so I assume that isn't helping her progress. He listens and says he gets it and then after a couple days just completely stops doing all the things we are supposed to be doing with her. This is another reason to add to the rehoming argument obviously.

Anyway, I guess the internet is a tough place to convey the WHOLE picture. Emma is 90% of the time really confident, happy and obedient. She has a great personality and is very bonded to us (me especially). Maybe I should have mentioned the good stuff with the bad.. I will let everyone know what decisions/progress get made.


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## angiern2004

So, tell us then, specifically what you're doing for the anxiety. Crating isn't working. The shock collar makes it worse. Neither one are fair to the puppy. I'm confused what else you're doing, because you haven't mentioned anything else. There have been lots of suggestions and it seems like they've all gotten shot down by you for one reason or another.


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## lfung5

But are you referring to the barking when you say things got better? Because you can't keep shocking her.


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## lfung5

Found this on Wikipedia. Please notice last sentence...

Havanese with untrimmed coat.
Other names	Havanese Cuban Bichon
Bichon Havanais
Bichon Havanês
Havaneser
Havanezer
Bichon Habanero
Country of origin	Western Mediterranean Region [1]
Patronage	F.C.I. [1]
Traits
Classification and standards
FCI	Group 9 Section 1 #250 - 10/04/2006	standard
AKC	Toys	standard
ANKC	Group 1 (Toys)	standard
CKC	Group 5 - Toys	[havanese rockk standard]
KC (UK)	Toy	standard
NZKC	Toys	standard
UKC	Companion	standard
Dog (Canis lupus familiaris)
The Havanese, a breed of Bichon type, is the national dog of Cuba, developed from the now extinct Blanquito de la Habana ("little white dog of Havana"). The Blanquito descended from the also now extinct Bichon Tenerife, which was introduced to the Canary Islands by the Cubans. It is believed that the Blanquito was eventually cross-bred with other Bichon types, including the Poodle, to create what is now known as the Havanese. Sometimes referred to as "Havana Silk Dogs," this was originally another name for the Blanquito de la Habana.

The Havanese is small in size and sturdy in structure with a tail carried over its back and ears that drop and fold. The coat is abundant, long, and silky and comes in all colors. The Havanese has a spirited personality and a curious disposition, and is notable for its springy gait, a characteristic that distinguishes the breed from all others.[2] The Havanese is considered an ideal family pet and a true companion dog. They are highly adaptable to almost any environment, and their only desire is to be with their human companions. Because of their strong social needs, Havanese will not thrive in an environment where they are isolated for several hours each day.


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## lfung5

Found this on Wikipedia. Please notice last sentence...

Havanese with untrimmed coat.
Other names	Havanese Cuban Bichon
Bichon Havanais
Bichon Havanês
Havaneser
Havanezer
Bichon Habanero
Country of origin	Western Mediterranean Region [1]
Patronage	F.C.I. [1]
Traits
Classification and standards
FCI	Group 9 Section 1 #250 - 10/04/2006	standard
AKC	Toys	standard
ANKC	Group 1 (Toys)	standard
CKC	Group 5 - Toys	[havanese rockk standard]
KC (UK)	Toy	standard
NZKC	Toys	standard
UKC	Companion	standard
Dog (Canis lupus familiaris)
The Havanese, a breed of Bichon type, is the national dog of Cuba, developed from the now extinct Blanquito de la Habana ("little white dog of Havana"). The Blanquito descended from the also now extinct Bichon Tenerife, which was introduced to the Canary Islands by the Cubans. It is believed that the Blanquito was eventually cross-bred with other Bichon types, including the Poodle, to create what is now known as the Havanese. Sometimes referred to as "Havana Silk Dogs," this was originally another name for the Blanquito de la Habana.

The Havanese is small in size and sturdy in structure with a tail carried over its back and ears that drop and fold. The coat is abundant, long, and silky and comes in all colors. The Havanese has a spirited personality and a curious disposition, and is notable for its springy gait, a characteristic that distinguishes the breed from all others.[2] The Havanese is considered an ideal family pet and a true companion dog. They are highly adaptable to almost any environment, and their only desire is to be with their human companions. Because of their strong social needs, Havanese will not thrive in an environment where they are isolated for several hours each day.


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## Thumper

Yes, Granted, there are a *few* homes where a full time job seems to be okay with a singleton Havanese like Linda C. I'd say she's more the exception to the rule. Probably a great deal of the success comes from the dog's temperament and personality, and possibly even having a bigger space to roam,I think its great to hear success stories about singletons that stay home alone... I dont believe in Caging, but I know I am the minority on that and I'm don't judge those that do, but honestly, the combination of the cage and the shock collar does seem a bit cruel and wildly counter productive, by doing that, I think you are just reinforcing to him that being home alone, in a cage, is painful. I didn't catch the reasoning on doing this or if the trainer suggested it, but its awful advice whoever told you to do this, I imagine it has just made him more frightened to be alone in the cage.. you might as well throw the cage away because he will now always correlate the cage with the shock collar, pain and fear..

You can buy a large piece of vinyl and an xpen or gates and try a larger space? 

I think you have gotten some good advice so far, I really hope something works out for you and him.

Kara


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## LindsC

krandall said:


> The problem is that Ashley feels that she has to leave the dog in a shock collar to keep her from barking during the day a it stands now. There is absolutely NO WAY that this dog can learn to trust and feel comfortable in her environment under these conditions. And it sounds like Ashley stands to lose her housing if she can't keep the dog quiet.
> 
> It sounds like you have carefully thought out how to handle things for your pup, and I'm glad it is working for you. It is MUCH easier to prevent problems with good planning, good training and proper management than it is to try to correct a major problem like this once it has been going on for a while.


Yes, the shock collar is beyond me - I've never seen one used and wouldn't dream of it.

Further, I imagine she dislikes the crate b/c she associates it with the shock collar.


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## lise

Ashley, if you love that pup, let it go! You have changed your issues and problems each time you post. Your poor little baby is suffering. You honestly picked the wrong breed then you got the wrong trainer. Its not your fault but you need to fix it. Your pup would be sooo happy in a home with children and a parent around, or a retired couple that has grandkids coming by for visits, a backyard that is fenced in so she can run around.
If you love her, let her go.


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## LindsC

Ashley, here is a link to an inexpensive exercise pen http://www.dog.com/item/midwest-pet-exercise-pen/110310/

You could get one or two and try to keep her in there with water, a bed, ugodog, and leave a radio or tv on. I just hope to hear you will take some of the suggestions.


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## Momo means Peach

From what I can gather, Ashley wants to do the right thing for her dog, thus the ignorant trainer. She, unfortunately, trusted who she thought was a professional. Also, unfortunate is that she did not discover this forum sooner. I realize to most of us that what occurred is difficult for us to understand, but, if you have never had a Havanese, how would you know? I don't want to chase her away from this forum. We need to provide her helpful, constructive advice, so that she can come to a decision that is correct for both the pup and her. Sorry, guys, my two cents.


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## angiern2004

None of us can make you give her up, even though it would be the best for her. You say things are "better" only after you didn't like to hear the honest answers you got. "Better" because of the pain and fear of being home alone in a crate is an unacceptable and counterproductive "better". 

But for the love of God, if you do insist on keeping her, the daytime setup has GOT to change. Ditch the shock collar, give her more space as Linda just described, get a positive reward trainer, and think about doggie daycare or a walking service (if you want a recommendation on a walking service that comes and picks up your dog, takes them on walks in cool places that even I'm jealous I haven't been to, and takes them home, pm me, I have a friend that lives in Vancouver that uses it for her dog and I'm constantly seeing pics on Facebook of the walks they go on).

Think some more about how terrifying it must be for her to be locked in her crate with a shock collar on. If you love her, that has to change. Has to. 

Geezo, every time I come back to this thread I give Trooper more hugs and belly rubs because all IIII can imagine is terrified little Emma.


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## angiern2004

Momo means Peach said:


> From what I can gather, Ashley wants to do the right thing for her dog, thus the ignorant trainer. She, unfortunately, trusted who she thought was a professional. Also, unfortunate is that she did not discover this forum sooner. I realize to most of us that what occurred is difficult for us to understand, but, if you have never had a Havanese, how would you know? I don't want to chase her away from this forum. We need to provide her helpful, constructive advice, so that she can come to a decision that is correct for both the pup and her. Sorry, guys, my two cents.


Although I agree with what you're saying, I also think that what's been given is constructive advice. She may not like what she's hearing, but it's constructive.


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## lfung5

angiern2004 said:


> None of us can make you give her up, even though it would be the best for her. You say things are "better" only after you didn't like to hear the honest answers you got. "Better" because of the pain and fear of being home alone in a crate is an unacceptable and counterproductive "better".
> 
> But for the love of God, if you do insist on keeping her, the daytime setup has GOT to change. Ditch the shock collar, give her more space as Linda just described, get a positive reward trainer, and think about doggie daycare or a walking service (if you want a recommendation on a walking service that comes and picks up your dog, takes them on walks in cool places that even I'm jealous I haven't been to, and takes them home, pm me, I have a friend that lives in Vancouver that uses it for her dog and I'm constantly seeing pics on Facebook of the walks they go on).
> 
> Think some more about how terrifying it must be for her to be locked in her crate with a shock collar on. If you love her, that has to change. Has to.
> 
> Geezo, every time I come back to this thread I give Trooper more hugs and belly rubs because all IIII can imagine is terrified little Emma.


This last paragraph is why I was up at 3am hugging my dogs. I couldn't sleep thinking about poor Emma. I looked at my guys sprawled out on my bed and though, lucky dogs....


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## angiern2004

Ya, I had Trooper out of his crate at 2 am for cuddles. (Yes, I believe in crating, but in a responsible way, he pretty much only sleeps in it at night and rides in the car in it sometimes.)


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## lfung5

Momo means Peach said:


> From what I can gather, Ashley wants to do the right thing for her dog, thus the ignorant trainer. She, unfortunately, trusted who she thought was a professional. Also, unfortunate is that she did not discover this forum sooner. I realize to most of us that what occurred is difficult for us to understand, but, if you have never had a Havanese, how would you know? I don't want to chase her away from this forum. We need to provide her helpful, constructive advice, so that she can come to a decision that is correct for both the pup and her. Sorry, guys, my two cents.


I have to disagree with you. No dog should be thrown in a crate all day with a shock collar on. I don't care the breed or what its background is.

I never had a dog before I got Bella, but I had enough sense not to leave her alone all day or put a shock collar on her. She was in a private doggy daycare everyday and got daily walks and swims. There is no excuse. The information is out there. Please people, do some research before buying an animal. They are living, breathing creatures with lots of feelings!

And I agree. Some Havs are ok being left alone all day, but I don't think that's the norm. For that to happen, the pup has to have the right temperament and it takes a lot of training on the owners part.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Momo means Peach said:


> From what I can gather, Ashley wants to do the right thing for her dog, thus the ignorant trainer. She, unfortunately, trusted who she thought was a professional. Also, unfortunate is that she did not discover this forum sooner. I realize to most of us that what occurred is difficult for us to understand, but, if you have never had a Havanese, how would you know? I don't want to chase her away from this forum. We need to provide her helpful, constructive advice, so that she can come to a decision that is correct for both the pup and her. Sorry, guys, my two cents.


Her question was...HELP..do we keep her? Our answer was NO.. and a resounding NO! We also offered to help her rehome Emma.

I cannot believe the shock collar and I sincerely hope she will reconsider and give Emma a happy life, not more shocks!

I also hope the breeder who sold this dog is contacted..not a good situation for anyone! The breeder maybe able to talk some sense into Emma's owner, who does not want advice but to argue..

I could not sleep worried about her too Linda...it is so unfair.


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## marlowe'sgirl

ashleyb87 said:


> Sorry that some of you may think I'm really terrible for not calling up a foster service tonight because my dog is left alone while we are at work.


So the issue people are objecting to is not the left home all day in and of itself. It's the conditions you described - in a crate, with a SHOCK collar, barking for 8 hrs, sometimes covered in saliva when you get home to the point that if not curbed you might be kicked out of your place plus submissive peeing. It sounds like you initially when you posted here you wanted to reassurance that it's not all your fault, but that she was from a puppy mill so she's just 'slow' or 'genetically different.' Every part of these last two sentences is a ton of red flags. The issues that you describe are really BIG issues (brought about by anxiety from a puppy mill plus poor training; these dogs are smart) that are really HARD to fix and will take a LONG time. As someone who works full-time with a wonderful, happy well adjusted Hav, I wouldn't pretend I'd be a suitable home to rehabilitate a dog from the situation you describe.

You said the issues are getting better. So what's the current situation? What's your current schedule?


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## gelbergirl

ashley, did not read through the entire thread, only the first few posts.
Try to rehome her, while she's still young enough to get used to a new home.
Maybe a home with another havanese. Many resources here to help you.


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## ashleyb87

First, I've heard everyone's response. Most of which is no, don't keep her, which is something we are considering. Emma is my best friend. My first post may have come across quite hopeless because I definitely feel that way with her sometimes. However, after reading some responses and learning that she is still a puppy until she is 2 and that a few of the behavioural things are because she is a companion dog (something I knew nothing about) makes me feel much less frustrated. Which is why my subsequent posts may have had a change in tone.

I have never heard such opposition to the collar/crating - and while I take responsibility for it please understand that we enlisted a trainer because we LOVE Emma and want her to be the best little dog she can be. We have been following advice that has obviously NOT BEEN PRODUCTIVE. So moving on, I want to FIX the situation. 

Again, we have had her for almost a year so it's not an easy decision and the more I think about actually not having her in my life the harder it becomes. To me it makes more sense to try and switch things up and start reacting to her based on new information I now know before choosing to give her away. If we don't have success in that then rehoming would be the next logical step.

Someone asked what we have done so far to improve her situation:
- She had an elaborate x-pen until she was 6 months old. We switched to a crate because she was managing to move the x-pen all around the room/collapse and was shredding up the puppy pads (we tried the bitter apple spray). The trainer told us a dog just sleeps when you aren't home anyway so put her in a crate where she can't hurt herself.
- Moved to a wire crate. Tried covering it with blankets. Tried playing all different types of music all day, kongs filled with peanut butter, our old t-shirts, treats, leaving and coming back several times, etc.
- 1 month ago switched to a plastic crate and moved to a bigger room in the house, which has seen the most improvement in the anxiety. Since getting that crate she has only had 1 really bad day of barking (our building manager sits almost outside our door and is good about updating us when we aren't home)
- We are intermittently leaving her to roam (without the collar) for 30-60 minutes at a time. She has toys all over the house but has destroyed some things (corners, area rugs) etc. but that's expected i guess given she's not used to it
- She sleeps with us every night in our bed now (started this a couple months ago) which she obviously LOVES and so do we. We would have started this sooner but were told absolutely NOT don't do it, etc etc. 

I am going to look into dog walkers and dig out the old xpen. The end goal for us has always been for her to roam free of the house eventually.


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## Lizzie'sMom

Is there someone in your building that can come in and play with her/take her out? If your building manager sits outside your door maybe he can help with the situation.


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## ashleyb87

That's a good idea - there are quite a few dog owners in our building. I think one of them is retired and stays at home. I will ask =)


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## lfung5

Ashley,
I might not want to hear your answer, but are you going to continue to shock Emma? You have been avoiding that and most everyone has told you it's not helping but actually hurting her training. I feel since you can't let her bark, in fear you will get kick out, you will continue to use it. You have not once said you'd throw it away and I'm concerned you are going to completely ruin this dog. Have you tried turning the collar to Max and shocking yourself? It very inhumane.


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## ashleyb87

We took the batteries out 2 months ago but she still wears it. We left her a few times in her crate without it and she barks. So we have been putting it on her which seems to work.

Yes, I have tried it on myself and barely felt anything, but I can't know what she's feeling as she's about 1/15th of my size. A lot of people (our trainer, friends who use them) don't think they are inhumane and that they are a good form of correction for barking - this is what we were going by. There always seems to be arguments on both sides for everything.


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## krandall

ashleyb87 said:


> First, I've heard everyone's response. Most of which is no, don't keep her, which is something we are considering. Emma is my best friend. My first post may have come across quite hopeless because I definitely feel that way with her sometimes. However, after reading some responses and learning that she is still a puppy until she is 2 and that a few of the behavioural things are because she is a companion dog (something I knew nothing about) makes me feel much less frustrated. Which is why my subsequent posts may have had a change in tone.
> 
> I have never heard such opposition to the collar/crating - and while I take responsibility for it please understand that we enlisted a trainer because we LOVE Emma and want her to be the best little dog she can be. We have been following advice that has obviously NOT BEEN PRODUCTIVE. So moving on, I want to FIX the situation.
> 
> Again, we have had her for almost a year so it's not an easy decision and the more I think about actually not having her in my life the harder it becomes. To me it makes more sense to try and switch things up and start reacting to her based on new information I now know before choosing to give her away. If we don't have success in that then rehoming would be the next logical step.
> 
> Someone asked what we have done so far to improve her situation:
> - She had an elaborate x-pen until she was 6 months old. We switched to a crate because she was managing to move the x-pen all around the room/collapse and was shredding up the puppy pads (we tried the bitter apple spray). The trainer told us a dog just sleeps when you aren't home anyway so put her in a crate where she can't hurt herself.
> - Moved to a wire crate. Tried covering it with blankets. Tried playing all different types of music all day, kongs filled with peanut butter, our old t-shirts, treats, leaving and coming back several times, etc.
> - 1 month ago switched to a plastic crate and moved to a bigger room in the house, which has seen the most improvement in the anxiety. Since getting that crate she has only had 1 really bad day of barking (our building manager sits almost outside our door and is good about updating us when we aren't home)
> - We are intermittently leaving her to roam (without the collar) for 30-60 minutes at a time. She has toys all over the house but has destroyed some things (corners, area rugs) etc. but that's expected i guess given she's not used to it
> - She sleeps with us every night in our bed now (started this a couple months ago) which she obviously LOVES and so do we. We would have started this sooner but were told absolutely NOT don't do it, etc etc.
> 
> I am going to look into dog walkers and dig out the old xpen. The end goal for us has always been for her to roam free of the house eventually.


This all sounds OK, but you HAVE to getrid of the shock collar IMMEDIATELY. Are you prepared to do that? And live with the barking that WILL happen... Possibly for a long while, until her anxiety subsides and she begins to settle down? If you can't manage this without the shock collar, it will NEVER work.


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## lfung5

If you must you a device I'm not sure what others think about the pet agree or citronella collar? Why not teach her bark and then teach her to be quiet?

I don't agree with anyone using harsh methods to correct their dogs. I don't even agree with hitting let alone a shock device. These people that think it's ok, who are we talking about? They are pretty ignorant to me. Are these the same people leaving their dogs in cages all day long? When taking advice please consider the source.

Dogs will bark, that's what dogs do...

See for yourself. There are a ton of videos on you tube of people wearing shock collars. It hurts and these people are much larger than a dog!


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## angiern2004

ashleyb87 said:


> First, I've heard everyone's response. Most of which is no, don't keep her, which is something we are considering. Emma is my best friend. My first post may have come across quite hopeless because I definitely feel that way with her sometimes. However, after reading some responses and learning that she is still a puppy until she is 2 and that a few of the behavioural things are because she is a companion dog (something I knew nothing about) makes me feel much less frustrated. Which is why my subsequent posts may have had a change in tone.
> 
> I have never heard such opposition to the collar/crating - and while I take responsibility for it please understand that we enlisted a trainer because we LOVE Emma and want her to be the best little dog she can be. We have been following advice that has obviously NOT BEEN PRODUCTIVE. So moving on, I want to FIX the situation.
> 
> Again, we have had her for almost a year so it's not an easy decision and the more I think about actually not having her in my life the harder it becomes. To me it makes more sense to try and switch things up and start reacting to her based on new information I now know before choosing to give her away. If we don't have success in that then rehoming would be the next logical step.
> 
> Someone asked what we have done so far to improve her situation:
> - She had an elaborate x-pen until she was 6 months old. We switched to a crate because she was managing to move the x-pen all around the room/collapse and was shredding up the puppy pads (we tried the bitter apple spray). The trainer told us a dog just sleeps when you aren't home anyway so put her in a crate where she can't hurt herself.
> - Moved to a wire crate. Tried covering it with blankets. Tried playing all different types of music all day, kongs filled with peanut butter, our old t-shirts, treats, leaving and coming back several times, etc.
> - 1 month ago switched to a plastic crate and moved to a bigger room in the house, which has seen the most improvement in the anxiety. Since getting that crate she has only had 1 really bad day of barking (our building manager sits almost outside our door and is good about updating us when we aren't home)
> - We are intermittently leaving her to roam (without the collar) for 30-60 minutes at a time. She has toys all over the house but has destroyed some things (corners, area rugs) etc. but that's expected i guess given she's not used to it
> - She sleeps with us every night in our bed now (started this a couple months ago) which she obviously LOVES and so do we. We would have started this sooner but were told absolutely NOT don't do it, etc etc.
> 
> I am going to look into dog walkers and dig out the old xpen. The end goal for us has always been for her to roam free of the house eventually.


In one of your posts you said something about how there are things that you're supposed to be doing for her anxiety that your bf isnt consistent about and doesn't follow through with. What are those things???


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## Prissy

To ashleyb87

I just read the entire thread.
I am confused upsed and mad at the same time. 
How could you hurt your little Emma?
My Prissy does not even like her regular collar

Time and love that's all it take. 
Owning a dog is a responsibility, We never had a dog before because 
we knew we were not responsible enough.
We had a hard time taking care of ourselves ... Now it is different.

Our Prissy came from a shelter, she was found in the streets with ticks fleas
and cigarette burns on the top of her head (3 burns next to each other).
When we took her she was scared of everything even her own shadow, 
or light object such as a plastic bag or leaves being moved by the brise.

We trained her, not with a professionnel but with some advices 
we found on the net. We used all the free advices we could get .

We use all the free advices from *TheDogTrainingSecret.com * 
We are job less since 2001 not yet retired, so we went to live where life 
is less expensive.
$ 20 dollars a day, that is our food and household budget, 
so we squeeze that eagle totaly dry, we have to live on that. 
So no dog walker and no nursery for dogs, 
we actually have much more time than money, these days.

In the space of 48 hours she learned to pee and pop on green turf door mat.
(I taught her). We bought 6 door mats 
We had 3 door mats in use and 3 to back to replace the ones that have been used.

We soaks the mats in buckets of water every day in summer, every other day in winter.
At first we put a door mat in the shower on our first level and in the shower 
of the second level and one on our covered terrace.
After 4 months she never used the showers mats anymore,
she now pees right over and directly in the drain.

The only mat she uses now, is the outdoor terrace mat to poop on,
twice a day before or after meal time.

Hopefully our friends do not have these type of cheap door-mats,
otherwise we could be in trouble, if she decides to use their door mats, 
for her daily needs.
But she wont, she only does it at home and ay regulatr time. 
When we travel we take her own door mat along with us.
You can usually find these for one dollar, in food store chains (I will not mention any name).

Today she is about a year old and has been with us 10 months.
We we trained her with the good advices collected her and there, 
she was so eager to please us and do the right thing, 
it was in fact really easy to train her. She listen to me well, 
that all she does. She loves me. She loves the two of us. 
She is a darling. She sleep under the bed eventho, she could joins us in bed 
but that is not allowed, she has her own bed with her toys, 
and in summer she likes it better under the bed.

Of course we used plenty treats, plenty of toys and the bones 
"Rawhide Bones & Chews" in for her teeth. No clicker just words.

Prissy never chewed a shoe , a furniture or any of our belonging.
She goes banana when we pull out a new rawhide bone .
We also have a shoulder bag, it is her bag, and I take our Prissy everywhere 
(super markets, restaurants, offices, theaters, we even took her 
to the opéra in her bag. She loves it and she behave well).

When I walk with her, if she is too tired she wants to go in the bag. 
That is when we stop for refreshment.

She rarely barks, when my wife is gone for grocery shopping, 
she stays with me and we go walk on the beach. 
When we are back home she immediately seach for my wife all over the house
and when she does not find her, she just waits patiently for the wife to drive
back with the car. No barking what so ever. 
But we the wife is back what a feast!

The wife left for one week to see her brother... 
Prissy did not eat for two days. And my wife had the same feast 
when she came back. I am actually taking lesson from my little girl.

We left her alone once and asked our neighbour watchman, 
"she just cries a little after you leave and then that is it, 
we do not hear cry or bark after your are gone.

She just barks at the mail-man... How do you explain that --- it must be in her genes.
She also bark, if we dive in the pool. But that seems to be play time.
She will not bark as long as we do not dive.

Having a havanese dog requires to spend a lot of time with him or her... 
a lot,she often lays on my feet and tickles my toes while I watch TV.
In restaurant she will lay at our feet.
Now we can do that because we live in Mexico ! 
In the USA i doubt I could take Prissy in restaurants, and certainly not in 
groceries or super markets. 
Here it is also not permitted, but ours hosts always wants us to be happy, 
so they do not see Prissy (she hides well in her bag).


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## ashleyb87

angiern2004 said:


> In one of your posts you said something about how there are things that you're supposed to be doing for her anxiety that your bf isnt consistent about and doesn't follow through with. What are those things???


The main thing is he doesn't understand the importance of the "going out and coming home" process as it relates to reducing her anxiety. He forgets to leave and come back and doing little things like not shaking his keys around so much as to rile her up that he's leaving. He generally is rushing around and not taking the time to do things assertively and calmly with her. I feel like I am always coming in and picking up the pieces when she has spent more time with him for a few days.


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## ashleyb87

lfung5 said:


> If you must you a device I'm not sure what others think about the pet agree or citronella collar? Why not teach her bark and then teach her to be quiet?


I would LOVE to learn to teach her to bark and be quiet. That is a great suggestion. This is where a new trainer comes in.


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## Mirafi

I know it's off-topic but I just wanted to say I feel very happy and inspired after reading Prissy's post! I want to go live where they are so I can live the chill life and go to the Opera on $20 a day  Reading stories like that helps confirm my own lifestyle choices, where I have eschewed things like new cars and nice furniture in favor of freedom of TIME.


Back on-topic, I'd like to request that we stop chiding Ashley for previous uninformed/poor choices. It happened, it sucks, she's working to fix it and will hopefully make more informed choices in the future. Just like when people angrily yell "COME" to their dogs and then punish them for taking too long to get there, if we verbally punish people when they come seeking help all that's going to happen is they aren't going to seek it out any more for fear of the negative reinforcement that is sure to follow. She could of just kept on as she was or dropped her dog off at the humane society, and I'm sure none of us would want that.


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## Brady's mom

Ashley, as you mentioned in your first post, your little girl probably didn't come from the best of circumstances. I am sure that you will take this as a lesson for the next time you purchase a dog. One of the best things you can do is to get a rescue dog (and you can be told the issues upfront) or buy from a reputable breeder who begins socializing and training from day 1. It is possible that your little girl isn't "wired correctly" and that no matter what you do, things may not get better. Sometimes, that is the result of poor breeding. I had a foster with me who was very barky and regardless of training, confidence or trust, he was always going to be a barker. I understand that you are trying to do what you can to keep her, and that you have followed the advice of others. Please keep yours and her best interest at heart as you go forward and determine how you are going to handle things with her. I can tell you that I have always said I could never get an electric fence since I think it would traumatize my dogs for life. I think the point has been made that the shock collar is not appropriate for a small breed.

One more thing that I don't think anyone mentioned. Have you spoken to your vet? Perhaps they could give her something for anxiety. Also, I use a thundershirt on my little girl during thunderstorms. It seems to help comfort her. Perhaps that could help.


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## Lisainidaho

marlowe'sgirl said:


> It is possible to have a Hav and work 8 hrs a day. I'm one of those people. I've work very hard to get my Hav to that point though. On the front end, I got him from an excellent breeder, so he came without any issues and was crate trained (it was his safe place). We did weekly positive reinforcement based classes until he was 1.5 yrs old (ran out of classes to do; deciding what direction to go now). We went to puppy play sessions until he got his shots, then moved to the small dog park 3-4x a week. We start the day with a really long walk; he gets walks sometimes at lunch (daily the first yr until he started refusing them), and always when home from work and before bed (easily over 1hr a day on our short days). He spends 1 day a week at a doggie daycare where he is adored. We slowly transitioned him from crated when we're away to progressively more rooms of our house (he got full reign at 2 yrs old and our place is puppy proofed with lots of toys/alternative chewing options and things like cords taped down, paper/shoes not in his reach). My non-work life essentially revolves around my pup though and my pup is not alone! He spends all day napping/playing/wrestling with his bff - my cat.
> 
> To make choice to get a companion dog and work full-time requires a lot of forethought, planning, sacrifices, flexibility, time and $$$. You need the deck stacked in your favor from well before you get the pup.
> 
> It sounds like the deck was not in your favor - from a puppy mill with unknown upbringing, not a positive reinforcement training situation and likely as a consequence, not the right attitude about training. Your attitude should be - it's my fault for not communicating clearly with my Hav, he's just confused and trying his best - NOT he's just not getting it, what's wrong with him. Not screwing up a puppy from a good breeder is a LOT easier than helping an anxious puppy mill dog adjust to home life or rehabilitating a dog with a lot of bad habits reinforced for a year's time.
> 
> It sounds like you do not have the time/resources to get yourself and your pup out of your current situation and into a place of a happy, balanced dog who is a joyful part of your family. Submissive peeing means a lot of anxiety as does barking for 8 hrs in a crate (that is NOT crate trained, crate trained means it's their happy, quiet, maybe hide from grooming space). Rehabilitating that much anxiety is not easy and is why so many are suggesting that yes you should rehome (through HRI or HALO). Jumping on guests and chewing on things he shouldn't (why does he have access to them) are pretty minor and I think easily correctable with the right trainer and attitude.


I do a lot of the above also. I have two littermate boys (which some people disagree with, I acknowledge that!) but the main reason I have two was so they would be companions for each other while I was at work. I researched the breed and breeders, found what I think was an excellent breeder, and worked with her and a trainer to fit my specific needs. I also take them to doggie daycare occasionally to break up the daily routine, and I go home every day at lunch to play with them and make sure they are ok. I also record them a few times per month to make sure there isn't any separation anxiety or other issues going on while I am at work. And just like above, when I'm not at work my sidekicks are with me. My little guys are 7 months old and they are a joy to me and from what I see, they have joyful lives also.

What concerns me is that you haven't had the same start as myself and the poster above. You have a lot of habits that need to be reversed. And then you have the initial issue of questionable breeding. Some things just can't be fixed. I'm not saying you cannot fix your situation, but it may take more time and finances than you are ready for. If you really want to keep this dog, why don't you set up a timeline for yourself and try several different methods, i.e. a new trainer and doggie daycare, and then see if your dog improves. I know that some of these posts are probably hard to read, but you have to remember you are posting on a board that is full of people who want to LOVE and PROTECT the breed. It's hard to hear about an animal suffering, and I think your dog is suffering a bit.


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## Susan0406

Hi Ashley- I have read the whole thread and I am going to leave all the training stuff to the experts. I can offer a few pieces of advice though. I have concrete floors, so when my pup jumps to greet you the xpen moves. I went to target and bought a bunch of weights and put the around the outside of the pen and it has stopped the pen moving. We tried 5lbs weights at first, but havs are actually a lot stronger than you would think, so we upped it to 10lbs weights and they work like a charm. I do think Emma needs a bigger space, so hopefully this will help with that. Also collars and pens dont really go together as she could get caught, and get hurt. 

Have you tried leaving the tv or the radio on when you are out? It could mask some of the barking. Also, maybe you could set up a webcam and watch Emma while you are at work to see what triggers the barking.


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## davetgabby

Hi Ashley. I',m not sure you realize how much time energy and possibly large sums of money might be needed for your dog. You've already decided on a few changes and getting a dog walker right now is not a good descison. If you would like an opinion from a very good professional ,I'll see what I can do. Let me know. Her recommendations I suspect will not be pretty. Let me know. This is free.


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## angiern2004

davetgabby said:


> Hi Ashley. I',m not sure you realize how much time energy and possibly large sums of money might be needed for your dog. You've already decided on a few changes and getting a dog walker right now is not a good descison. If you would like an opinion from a very good professional ,I'll see what I can do. Let me know. Her recommendations I suspect will not be pretty. Let me know.


Please, Ashley, take the offer for a professional evaluation. That's going to be the best way you can get an accurate idea of what it's going to take to rehabilitate your puppy. How are you going to make an informed decision otherwise? Please.


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## Charleysmom

I've just read through this entire thread. My objective uneducated opinion, no blame, just looking at the facts - is that Emma needs to be in a home with people that are home everyday all day for a very long long time. Her issues are not something that a trainer can now train away. She needs to be in a home with very experienced dog owners, especially someone experienced with rehabilitating a dog that has experienced exceptional stress and anxiety. The behaviors you speak about only demonstrate that something (s) about Emma's current living situation aren't working for her. 

Sounds like this is a case of "love isn't enough." 

My hav came from a fabulous breeder and I have spent endless hours with my Charley preparing him and me for our life ahead. I could NEVER possibly do this at night and weekends any more than I could take care of a baby in that time. 

By the way, Charley never jumps up on people. The few times that he has jumped up to me, I've turned around and given him my back. Once you pet the dog or touch him if he jumps on you, you've rewarded him for a behavior you don't want. Just my two cents.


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## ashleyb87

I've said a couple times about wanting a new trainer to assist and asking for any recommendations, so yes, please pass on their details. I'm feeling like a lot of you are attacking me and implying I don't want help for the situation, but that's why I reached out here in the first place. Money is not an issue and neither is putting in energy and time. I am willing to try anything. I can't now change the fact that Emma is not from a good breeder or is not the perfect breed for my family, I'm more focused on positive change than regretting something I cannot change. 

I'm not sure how getting a dog walker to let Emma out at lunch time could possibly be a bad idea.. She is great on her leash and loves exercise. 

Please PM me any local trainers/experts. I will engage them as soon as I get some recommendations. Thanks to those of you who gave me advice in a diplomatic way. Very much appreciated and I have learned A LOT about this breed from the responses.


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## Esperanita

When I first got Cuba he was home during the day when I had to work. Once he was potty trained, I started taking him to daycare twice a week as it tired him out and he basically slept most of the day when he was not at daycare. I got a second pup when Cuba was around six months so that he would have a companion. I used to take them both to daycare twice a week just so that they could socialize and tire themselves out for when they were crated.

My situation has changed and I was working from home, but I can definite say mine still sleep most of the day while I work. Sometimes, they are so tired that they don't even get up to follow me to the bathroom 

Some Havs can spend the day crated. However, I would be strategic about it by working in daycare and definitely using positive training techniques.

Havs all have different personalities. Cuba failed his good citizen test (or I did) because he just couldn't help himself from jumping up and saying hello. In fact, Cuba cries if I don't let him jump up and say hi. Izzy, on the other hand, will bark and back up when she sees new people or just go to her crate. She also does the submissive/excited pee thing, but only when I pick her up from daycare. 

Best of luck!


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## davetgabby

ashleyb87 said:


> I've said a couple times about wanting a new trainer to assist and asking for any recommendations, so yes, please pass on their details. I'm feeling like a lot of you are attacking me and implying I don't want help for the situation, but that's why I reached out here in the first place. Money is not an issue and neither is putting in energy and time. I am willing to try anything. I can't now change the fact that Emma is not from a good breeder or is not the perfect breed for my family, I'm more focused on positive change than regretting something I cannot change.
> 
> I'm not sure how getting a dog walker to let Emma out at lunch time could possibly be a bad idea.. She is great on her leash and loves exercise.
> 
> Please PM me any local trainers/experts. I will engage them as soon as I get some recommendations. Thanks to those of you who gave me advice in a diplomatic way. Very much appreciated and I have learned A LOT about this breed from the responses.


Hi again Ashley. This is going to involve a lot of time patience consistency and money to do it properly. Like any profession there are good better and best . There are also poor , lousy and down right dangerous dog trainers. It is also going to involve life changes if you have any hope to make it work. This lady will give you her opinions and if any trainer I know that gives the benefit of the doubt to an owner she does. She is very experienced and respected by her peers around the world as she is from Ireland. I know she will recommend a trainer ,that's a given. And perhaps I can find one for you. I will contact her and PM you as you wanted. You can email me if you have any questions. The reason I wouldn't recommend just anyone walking your dog for now is because, if they don't know what they are doing, they can possibly make her behavior worse. I will get back to you asap.


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## lfung5

Ashley,
I am happy to see you working towards making some changes. I hope all the hard work pays off and Emma can stay with you. I also want to apologize for being so abrasive with you. Please don't take it personally, but I go for the juggler when I see an animal suffering. I admire the fact that you kept your cool and kept coming back even though you were being attacked. To me that says you really want to help Emma. We are all here to help so please keep the questions coming.


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## Charleysmom

ditto. i am impressed.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Ashley, your first post was "Help....do we keep her?" You outlined your concerns and problems and asked for advice about keeping her or rehoming her. Once you had advice to rehome her you became defensive and in my opinion started changing the circumstances and looking for reasons to keep her.

If you want to keep Emma you have to settle on advice from a professional, you cannot use a shock collar and positive training solutions...it does not work that way, shock collars are not positive training with or without batteries. Emma must be very confused at this point. As am I. 

I personally don't think ANYONE owes you an apology..you asked a specific question and got answers and offers of assistance. You were not satisfied with those answers and started to become defensive. Once you decided you wanted to keep her, you asked for suggestions and solutions and you have received that also. Your posts have been confusing and a little misleading at times. If you sincerely want help, this is the place to get suggestions, the professional help will have to be consistant and from one professional source. Choose a positive trainer and stick with one.

If you want to rehome Emma, you have suggestions for that also. I hope you have a wonderful outcome and send along photos of Emma, we love photos... We are all concerned about Emma and I hope you will stay in touch. No one is angry with you, just your methods of dealing with Emma's barking and wanting to be with you..


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## Lisainidaho

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> Ashley, your first post was "Help....do we keep her?" You outlined your concerns and problems and asked for advice about keeping her or rehoming her. Once you had advice to rehome her you became defensive and in my opinion started changing the circumstances and looking for reasons to keep her.
> 
> If you want to keep Emma you have to settle on advice from a professional, you cannot use a shock collar and positive training solutions...it does not work that way, shock collars are not positive training with or without batteries. Emma must be very confused at this point. As am I.
> 
> I personally don't think ANYONE owes you an apology..you asked a specific question and got answers and offers of assistance. You were not satisfied with those answers and started to become defensive. Once you decided you wanted to keep her, you asked for suggestions and solutions and you have received that also. Your posts have been confusing and a little misleading at times. If you sincerely want help, this is the place to get suggestions, the professional help will have to be consistant and from one professional source. Choose a positive trainer and stick with one.
> 
> If you want to rehome Emma, you have suggestions for that also. I hope you have a wonderful outcome and send along photos of Emma, we love photos... We are all concerned about Emma and I hope you will stay in touch. No one is angry with you, just your methods of dealing with Emma's barking and wanting to be with you..


Sorry Ashley, but I couldn't agree more. You come on this board asking if you should get rid of your dog or not and then describe what I would say is a dismal situation for you and your dog. Then, when you didn't like the answers you started changing the details. First someone said to try doggie daycare. Then you say that doggie daycare is $20 per day at least. This made me think that you had a limit on the money that you could or would spend. Then later you said that money and time were no option and appeared to be offended that anyone would suggest that. I know that everything cannot be adequately conveyed online, but don't get defensive when people want to give their opinion. I've seen posts out here many times before like yours, and I usually just ignore them because honestly I think the people just got a dog because they though it was cute, then wanted to dump it when they found out that it wasn't a toy. I have no idea if that is your situation, but instead of being out here asking for and then complaining about opinions, why don't you spend some TIME and MONEY straightening out your situation with a good trainer, or a rehome situation. I'm sure you hate my post but that's to be expected.


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## Suzi

Lisainidaho said:


> Sorry Ashley, but I couldn't agree more. You come on this board asking if you should get rid of your dog or not and then describe what I would say is a dismal situation for you and your dog. Then, when you didn't like the answers you started changing the details. First someone said to try doggie daycare. Then you say that doggie daycare is $20 per day at least. This made me think that you had a limit on the money that you could or would spend. Then later you said that money and time were no option and appeared to be offended that anyone would suggest that. I know that everything cannot be adequately conveyed online, but don't get defensive when people want to give their opinion. I've seen posts out here many times before like yours, and I usually just ignore them because honestly I think the people just got a dog because they though it was cute, then wanted to dump it when they found out that it wasn't a toy. I have no idea if that is your situation, but instead of being out here asking for and then complaining about opinions, why don't you spend some TIME and MONEY straightening out your situation with a good trainer, or a rehome situation. I'm sure you hate my post but that's to be expected.


 She already stated she is going to try some more options its like you didn't even read what she is writing. A lot of people use shock collars . I used a can with coins in it and got slapped I had know idea it was bad. I'm having to leave my two for 9 hr stretches and I may end up being told my dogs are barking too much. What do you do? I don't have enough money for day care . It would be the hardest thing in the world for me to give up my two because of lack of money. She is so lucky that taking her Havanese to work is an option. I cant believe you guys didn't even read that she has tried that. Please try be more caring of others feelings.


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## Lisainidaho

Suzi said:


> She already stated she is going to try some more options its like you didn't even read what she is writing. A lot of people use shock collars . I used a can with coins in it and got slapped I had know idea it was bad. I'm having to leave my two for 9 hr stretches and I may end up being told my dogs are barking too much. What do you do? I don't have enough money for day care . It would be the hardest thing in the world for me to give up my two because of lack of money. She is so lucky that taking her Havanese to work is an option. I cant believe you guys didn't even read that she has tried that. Please try be more caring of others feelings.


With all due respect Suzi I did read this thread. I now regret spending the time to do so. I don't really care what she does with her dog. She asked a question and people gave their opinions and offered advice, and when she didn't like the advice she changed the story, offered defenses, etc. instead of just reading the advice from people a lot smarter than me. But I did learn one thing from this thread - mind my own business! Don't worry about other people's trouble with their dogs. I will only post fluffy happy responses from now on. You have a good day now  Maddie is beautiful.


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## krandall

Suzi said:


> She already stated she is going to try some more options its like you didn't even read what she is writing. A lot of people use shock collars . I used a can with coins in it and got slapped I had know idea it was bad. I'm having to leave my two for 9 hr stretches and I may end up being told my dogs are barking too much. What do you do? I don't have enough money for day care . It would be the hardest thing in the world for me to give up my two because of lack of money. She is so lucky that taking her Havanese to work is an option. I cant believe you guys didn't even read that she has tried that. Please try be more caring of others feelings.


Suzi, there is NO excuse for shock collars. IMO they should be outlawed.


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## whimsy

krandall said:


> Suzi, there is NO excuse for shock collars. IMO they should be outlawed.


 Amen. I think it is safe to say that the majority of us agree with that!


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## Suzi

Lisainidaho said:


> With all due respect Suzi I did read this thread. I now regret spending the time to do so. I don't really care what she does with her dog. She asked a question and people gave their opinions and offered advice, and when she didn't like the advice she changed the story, offered defenses, etc. instead of just reading the advice from people a lot smarter than me. But I did learn one thing from this thread - mind my own business! Don't worry about other people's trouble with their dogs. I will only post fluffy happy responses from now on. You have a good day now  Maddie is beautiful.


 I'm sorry I really didn't mean to direct my opinion towards you alone. I just like to give people the benefit of the doubt. A few statements others were giving hit home for me and my situation. So i guess I got a bit defensive myself. Maddie says thanks
A lot of people don't consider how mean a shock collar is. I have a friend who trained with an enviable fence I didn't agree with her but it worked for her small dog. And they sell a bunch of them. Don't know if that is the same concept as a shock collar? I even know people who have their dogs DE barked. Why? because they cant train them? they hate a dogs bark? 
Maybe your dog really isn't barking the whole time? Have you tried leaving the TV on . I used to do that it seemed to distract from other noises that triggered barking.


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## Luciledodd

Suzi, I have found that one answer is enough. I do no suffer fools and I gave the meanest answer. I just get tired of some that can't say thanks for the answer and then shut up. I still love you though.


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## narci

ashleyb87 said:


> Thank you TilliesMom. That was more the type of response I was hoping for - knowing that yours is 2 and has the "can't control herself" thing makes me feel better. Good to have some perspective as I don't know ANYONE with a Havanese. And again, we have a ton of friends with dogs left alone for 8-10 hours so we just thought well we can make that work too!
> 
> We only saw her after she had obviously been given to the "broker" we bought her from. No idea what conditions were like before that unfortunately.
> 
> It is definitely challenging to get other people to cooperate with the jumping - it is pretty darn cute when she does it so she gets "rewarded" a lot. But it gets to be a bit much and according to our old trainer is a "rude" dog behaviour that should be corrected...
> 
> We can afford a good trainer, that's not the issue - it's more that the $20 a day for the rest of her life seems like a lot, we would rather have a long term solution where she can be alone roaming in the house from 9-5 because that seems more fair to her than a crate.
> 
> I have tried to bring her to work with me a few times, but she goes totally nuts when clients come in to the office (whining and jumping), and can't be left alone at all if I have to go to a meeting because it's not her home so she starts barking almost right away. Would love to get to the point where she could come to work with me though.
> 
> I think a new trainer is in order. Any suggestions from Vancouver people would be greatly welcomed.


I'm in vancouver bc as well. East van to be exact.

I goto dizine canine canine on 1st and clark. Shelagh is awesome. she trains in positive re-enforcement. only thing is she specializes in pitbulls an rotties but she will train smaller dogs. oreo went there for puppy class and basic obediemce. she does offer private training classes and offers reactive dog training.

http://dizinecanine.com/

remember that a trainer is only 25% of the battle. the other 75% is up to you.


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## davetgabby

not sure AShley is still with us. I pm'd her with a detailed plan of attack from my friend in Ireland. She hasn't answered me.


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## krandall

Luciledodd said:


> Suzi, I have found that one answer is enough. I do no suffer fools and I gave the meanest answer. I just get tired of some that can't say thanks for the answer and then shut up. I still love you though.


I want one of those cup cakes, Lucile!!!:biggrin1:


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## gelbergirl

I like those cupcakes too!


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## Thumper

I honestly don't think getting rid of the shock collar is enough, I think it has made such a bad correlation with the cage and being alone that even crating the dog isn't EVER going to get better, there is just too much terror associated with it.

In this particular situation, I think doggie daycare might be the best route if she wants to keep her, or even find someone who will petsit for you at their home, there are probably dog lovers out there that would keep her while you work for a reasonable rate, put an ad out and see what you get?

Kara


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## krandall

Thumper said:


> I honestly don't think getting rid of the shock collar is enough, I think it has made such a bad correlation with the cage and being alone that even crating the dog isn't EVER going to get better, there is just too much terror associated with it.
> 
> In this particular situation, I think doggie daycare might be the best route if she wants to keep her, or even find someone who will petsit for you at their home, there are probably dog lovers out there that would keep her while you work for a reasonable rate, put an ad out and see what you get?
> 
> Kara


Oh, she's going to require a TON of retraining/reconditioning to recover from this, but NONE of it will do ANY good, if she is still subjected to a shock collar. Just sticking her in a day care situation isn't going to solve the problems either. It might actually make her worse, since I doubt she's had much proper socialization.


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## Luciledodd

Sherron and I are going to give Rosie a birthday party soon and have these cupcakes. Rosie won't know the difference about it not being her birthday.


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## emichel

Ashley, if you're still reading, here's what I think. There have already been 11 pages of insightful comments, but maybe you can get a different perspective from a new puppy owner such as myself. I'm sure you started out with the best intentions, and I know you have gotten attached to your dog, but I really think you should put your needs and feelings aside, and do what is best for the dog. She has already suffered greatly in her short life, and I think she needs to be with someone who can be with her all the time and give her the time, care, and attention she has been missing all along. Ideally this would be an experienced Havanese owner/trainer who can be home with her all the time. If you want a pet, get a cat! I have had cats all my life, because was away at work all the time, and only recently got my puppy because I am in a work situation where I can bring him to work with me every day. I also work as a therapist with the older adult population, and he is actually an asset in my work, which my supervisor recognizes. He is now just about 5 months old, has had lots of socializing with people and other dogs, and even now I only leave him alone for very short periods of time. I am not a dog expert, but I do have a graduate psychology degree. My relatively limited understanding of dog psychology combined with my more advanced understanding of psychology in general and my great love and intuition for my dog leads me to believe that they need to be with their person almost constantly until they have developed a feeling of security. Then once they have internalized the sense of a "secure base" you can begin to leave them alone for longer and longer periods, and they will be calm. With your dog, the poor thing has been so damaged already, she deserves to have only the best for the rest of her life. PLEASE find someone who can be with her all day! When your life situation changes and you are able to devote more time to a dog, then maybe you can get another one, and will have learned from your experiences with all this. That's what I think, and I really hope you will listen! Good luck.
-- Eileen


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## lise

Amen


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## misstray

Personally, I'd never tell someone they should give up their dog based on only a few paragraphs written on an internet forum. I know that when I am upset or frustrated and write something out, it often sounds much worse than it is in reality. I WOULD, however, advise having a professional in to give an unbiased opinion on the situation. A professional who understands small dogs and soft breeds.

In fact, when I read the original post I had this vision of a dog spraying urine around everywhere constantly and unable to control herself. The reality may be a lot different. Also, because of the thread title, people start out with the idea of re-homing. I have to wonder if the original post had been presented differently and just asked for advice, just how different the advise would have been.

The OP used a shock collar after advise from a trainer. People here don't like this approach and are very vocal about it. Guaranteed, if she had said this on a different forum that didn't have the same slant toward positive training as this one does, that she wouldn't have gotten the same reaction. (note: I am not saying at all that I agree with the use of shock collars). Goodness knows I keep getting advised to use one on Brody (which I won't do), although I do honestly wonder if he'd even feel it under all that fur (not that I am going to test it).

Anyhow, without firsthand knowledge of the situation I sure as heck wouldn't tell someone their pet was traumatized and ruined and needed to be re-homed. I can see why this would feel like an attack. 

I also think this underscores the importance of knowing breed characteristics and fitting a breed to your family and lifestyle. Clearly the original poster just saw a cute puppy and brought it home. I honestly hope she finds a good solution one way or another, but I guess the chances are that we will never know.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Gabs

misstray said:


> Personally, I'd never tell someone they should give up their dog based on only a few paragraphs written on an internet forum. I know that when I am upset or frustrated and write something out, it often sounds much worse than it is in reality. I WOULD, however, advise having a professional in to give an unbiased opinion on the situation. A professional who understands small dogs and soft breeds.
> 
> In fact, when I read the original post I had this vision of a dog spraying urine around everywhere constantly and unable to control herself. The reality may be a lot different. Also, because of the thread title, people start out with the idea of re-homing. I have to wonder if the original post had been presented differently and just asked for advice, just how different the advise would have been.
> 
> The OP used a shock collar after advise from a trainer. People here don't like this approach and are very vocal about it. Guaranteed, if she had said this on a different forum that didn't have the same slant toward positive training as this one does, that she wouldn't have gotten the same reaction. (note: I am not saying at all that I agree with the use of shock collars). Goodness knows I keep getting advised to use one on Brody (which I won't do), although I do honestly wonder if he'd even feel it under all that fur (not that I am going to test it).
> 
> Anyhow, without firsthand knowledge of the situation I sure as heck wouldn't tell someone their pet was traumatized and ruined and needed to be re-homed. I can see why this would feel like an attack.
> 
> I also think this underscores the importance of knowing breed characteristics and fitting a breed to your family and lifestyle. Clearly the original poster just saw a cute puppy and brought it home. I honestly hope she finds a good solution one way or another, but I guess the chances are that we will never know.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


completely agree with you... A trainer needs to be present in the home to see the behaviour and their lifestyle to determine what is best for this sweet pup - It's a terrible situation to be in and I really wish them all the best.


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## davetgabby

A trainer definitely has to assess this dog. My friend had a large list of precursors that would be involved first . This dog is not in good shape if what she described is half true. What I want to say is that we can't let issues go unresolved. One problem leads to another and then another quite often. If you are not getting issues resolved, get help. But be careful where you get it. I just wish Ashley would at least read my friends letter and think about it seriously.


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## Suzi

krandall said:


> Suzi, there is NO excuse for shock collars. IMO they should be outlawed.


 I don't like them either. I didn't like my friend using the invisible fence nor do I like the idea of people DE barking a dog. I also think its okay for a dog to bark. Not for hours at a time mind you. My new roommate hates it any time so I'm looking to move on as soon as possible. I just think some people don't think they are doing something cruel and mean. The point I was trying to make is I tried the can but stopped when I found out it was not a good training tool. I may be trainable but I'm sure a bad traineround: The sisters are not going to be easy to live around folks that want a perfect well behaved dog.


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## lfung5

I just hope Emma is ok....... When I read her original post that she would be covered in saliva from stress, that freaks me out!


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## lise

I am teaching Ted quiet. Its not 100% but I am getting results


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## motherslittlehelper

I have refrained from commenting on this thread because I honestly do not know where the truth lies. Also, forum members with far more knowledge and experience than I had already weighed in with their opinions, advice and offers of help. I did not see the thread until it had developed into several pages. Later postings were a far cry from the situation described in the original post. So what is the truth? It is possibly true that the OP exaggerated the situation out of frustration in her original post. Not a wise thing to do if you are truly seeking constructive advice. This wasn’t an emergency case of a dog ingesting something possibly harmful and the owner being freaked and pounding out a plea for help, where time is of the essence. This supposedly is a situation that has been going on for a long period of time….so it would have been in her best interest to compose a description of that situation, sit on it for a day, reread and make sure it represented the true picture. As the thread evolved, I was thoroughly confused as to where the truth really fell, and in fact, with the way the story changed, I began to wonder if any of it was. Was this simply a case of end of summer boredom, where the OP was possibly looking for some fun at our expense, knowing how the forum members would react? Much as I would hate to realize that we all had been ‘played’, I would much prefer that than to know that there truly was a little female Hav, named Emma, who had come from a possible puppy mill situation, only to find herself locked in a crate for hours on end, barking through a shock collar, to the point where she was bathed in saliva – and by someone who describes Emma as her ‘best friend’.

I am only commenting now because I get the feeling there are some who think others may have been too harsh. There have been instances in the past where I have felt that there have been undeserved harsh replies to posts. However, in this case, I don’t think any apologies are due. It is also important to remember that if you have an issue you need help with, if you write in frustration or anger, at least let it sit until you have calmed down and then review it to be certain that it is portrayed as accurately as possible before posting, if it is not an emergency situation.

I haven’t been on the forum as much these days, but I do try to read a bit each day. For the most part, I believe the forum members are kind and try to give the benefit of the doubt. They are here for the support and especially for our Havs. And, in this case, attempting to provide a voice on little Emma's behalf. Emma is trying to speak for herself, but no one seems to be listening. Heartbreaking.


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## emichel

Great post, Linda.
-- Eileen


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## lfung5

Ditto. I can't get little Emma off my mind....


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