# line breeding/in breeding



## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Okay this entire havanese breed issue has me really interested in genetics. My friend helped explain things to me the other night and then I did some searches. This one is on rabbits so I am not sure if the coefficients are different with dogs but I thought it gave you a good idea on in breeding and the good and the bad.

I have found lots of examples of why it is bad to in breed. Are there any examples of when it is good other than to produce a type? Have there been animals that have cured of an ailment from limiting the population quite a bit?

Amanda (who has a lot more reading to do!)

http://thhoppers.homestead.com/files/Basic_Information_Needed_To_Breed_Rabbits_Successfully.htm


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I am fascinated and confused with this as well. There are bound to be cons to inbreeding. I have much more reading to do as well, but on a quick google search I came up with this unusual one:

*Inbreeding has been blamed for countless problems in dogs and cats, from hip dysplasia to reduced fertility. Researchers at the University of Pennsylvania believe that obsessive-compulsive disorder might be the next affliction to add to the list. Among its findings, their recent study investigating obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) in dogs and cats concluded that selective breeding and inbreeding may play a large role in the disorder's occurrence among companion animals.

The study, published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association (Vol. 221, No. 10), *

I'm sure some breeders are very educated on the subject, as with most theories there are usually atleast two schools of thought.

Fire away oh knowledgeable ones! 

Kara


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Kara,
I agree I can see how people can have completely different opinions but I think passionate breeders having discussions is completely great! I wonder just how much of the havanese health problems such as CD were started because of the lack of dogs in the U.S.? 

And a photo just to show how bored my little girl is with all this reading of mine! 

Time for a walk!
Amanda


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang (May 21, 2007)

That photo is precious! Her look says it all. Mom- get off that darn machine and come play!

Wanda


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Amanda, I love that picture! It looks like she could be a blanket hanging there. 

To answer your question about inbreeding getting rid of a disease, that's not really how genetics works. Let's say you have a mouse that has some kind of genetic mutation (recessive) that gives it some kind of disease. Now, when that mouse is inbred to another mouse from its litter it is possible that the second animal contains the same mutation. If that's the case, their offspring would contain 50% normal mice, 25% heterozygous (that has ONE of the recessive mutation) and 25% homozygous (diseased) mice. So, if there is some kind of recessive (or dominant) mutation that creates disease inbreeding can only make it worse, not better.

It is only recommended to inbreed if both mice (or dogs, or people or whatever) have perfect genomes (no mutations whatsoever). Otherwise, it's a game of chance, as it is with any breeding at all.

Lab mice, for example, are kept with specific phenotypes (whether it is wild type (normal) or some kind of heterozygous mutant) by inbreeding for many many many generations with no other side effects. In this case, as in all others, everything else is perfectly controlled. We know so little about environment creating disease that it is very important to keep all of the mice in the same exact environment eating the same exact food. This is VERY hard to do outside of a lab environment so it's hard to do the same with dogs (as pets).

Sorry for the long post... I tend to talk too much when it regards science since it's what I do for a living. :sorry: :blah:


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Lina,
I didn't think of myself a science person (actually my major was philosophy!) but this is all very interesting! One of my good friends actually was telling me a lot about this type of thing and I have read a lot today so thanks for the clearification. I read about a lot of bad situations with people inbreeding and the outcome but I didn't know if there was evidence of how it could be good in the long run other than just producing a similar phenotype? 

Amanda who made sure Dora got a good walk in!


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

LOL Amanda!

My dog is so funny when she wants me off the computer. She'll jump up on the couch and literally use her paws to sweep my hands off my laptop and jump in my lap and demand attention!!! IT cracks me up everytime  I mean, how can I resist?

She also gets mad at me if I sew too long w/o giving her attention, she'll whine at me until I get off my sewing machine to play with her.

Too cute.

Lina, thanks for the explanation. I also wonder how evolution of species factors into breeding back to a standard from the 1970's. Don't all species evolve to a small degree over a period of 40 years? Humans are MUCH bigger and taller than they were in the 70's.

Sorry if that wins the "dumb question" award, I'm an Economist, not a scientist. But couldn't just natural evolution account for some changes in size, coloring, or even changes in the animal's coat to adapt to its enviromment, etc.

Kara


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

All the talk of line breeding and inbreeding has been interesting. Lo and behold, I logged in to read my online news sources and today this article appeared..
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory?id=3277785

Granted, it refers to people but the recent discussion of inherited diseases it seemed interesting. My apologies for it being off topic by referring to humans rather than dogs.

Susan


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Kara-I think that question makes a lot of sense. Although 40 years doesn't seem like much time but it is for humans (look at the weight changes too!) and then take the climate differences too.

Susan- I read that and it is very interesting with that community. Last night, I read about Ashkenazi Jews too. It made me think maybe what Dorthy did was the right thing outbreeding to a different line even if they were of different quality. What if she only breed the original dogs she had, maybe our havanese health problems would be out of control compared to what we have now. Just a thought!

Amanda


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Kara, yes you are right... small mutations can occur over time but your assumption that we are taller due to a genetic difference is not right. Think about it for a sec... a random mutation only occurs approximately every 1,000 bases. Now think of all the people who live in the US (for sake of argument), what would be the likelihood that they would all have the exact same random mutation to affect their size (height or whatever) at the same time? Really really really small.

The reason that is believed that people are taller/bigger nowadays is due to a MUCH better diet (especially during pregnancy - prenatal vitamins, no smoking or drinking, less caffeine and the such - basically everything your doctor told you not to eat/drink while you were pregnant that have been shown to affect the size of your baby) and better food. To a smaller extent, there are people who believe that all of the hormones that are placed into food to make them bigger can and do affects you and your body. I am not advocating organic food, or anything like that as I eat non-organic food myself, but that has been shown to be a more likely reason for people being taller now than a mutation in the entire population (as I said, very unlikely).

And yes, it's true... small genetic mutations COULD change color, size and differences to make the animal adapt but over 40 years?! The differences would be very small. I stress that I am talking about EVOLUTION, as you asked about... breeding (by humans) for a specific quality CAN produce the physical changes that you want over a much shorter time period.

In terms of evolution alone, except for the one or two odd dogs out (who got the correct mutation to affect their size, color, etc.) the large majority of the dogs will only have recessive mutations that will not change any aspect of their physical appearance. In order to do that, many many many generations have to pass with a heck of a lot of random mutations hitting the right gene. Animals adapt to conditions over HUNDREDS of years, not in decades.

Humans use the one or two mutations that pop up over generations, through inbreeding, to produce a dog that looks a certain way or has an interesting characteristic, or whatever. Breeding of dogs towards a specific characteristic is in short a way to cheat the many years of evolution and even to cheat it all together (producing a dog that is not necessarily healthy or viable for their environment and in the wild would die out - basic natural selection).


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Lina,
What you said with medical technology changing makes complete sense. But wouldn't it apply to the situation that we talked about with the Havanese in Cuba. On another post, they were saying how they don't have access to a lot of things we take for grated. Say you imported the havanese from cuba and 40 years later now they can get vaccines, they are eating better food, getting medical care they didn't have over there. I just wonder how much of a change that could play in the breed too? That could cause american havanese to be taller, healthier, and look slightly different too, couldn't it?

Amanda


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I think that's plausible.

There are so many things to be taken into account. I did make the point about our food supplies that *other* thread this week. Our pets eat the same foods we do.

Even buying organic isn't fail proof. There are companies that try to pass off non organic food as "organic" when, in fact....its not.

Kara


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## KristinFusco (Jun 5, 2007)

Hi Guys!

Lina I am so excited you are a scientist too! Like we were saying before, in general, most inbreeding in humans has been found to have negative effects because it concentrates the "bad genes". There are, if you research different races or religious groups of humans, genetic diseases that are native only to that particular group that has inbred. As I said on the other thread, in general, diversity is good because the more heterozygous people are for every gene allele (ie the more differences in the genes people carry), the less likely they are to meet up with someone with the same "bad" gene, marry them, and produce offspring.

But there are a few examples of races or groups of people who practice consanguinity (marrying cousins) for a number of generations and see no negative effect. In fact, they were able to "breed out" a bad gene in the way that Greg mentioned that people do for dogs.

See this article:

http://www.as.wvu.edu/~kgarbutt/QuantGen/Gen535_2_2004/Inbreeding_Humans.htm

The vast majority of the time, inbreeding in humans eventually causes disease for all of the reasons Lina mentioned. But if you look at the lab mice whose genomes are completely characterized (ie understood) and have been inbred for 20 generations (typical of a lab mice strain), you will see that you can remove negative genes for the gene pool as they pop up by "breeding away" from them to keep the strains pure even when a mutation does occur.

Amanda, you were talking about lifespan of dogs in the wild being better than those who are genetically engineered. WHen I was talking about directed evolution with dogs and increasing their lifespan and health, I was referring to them having a "longer life" because the CD gene was removed (hopefully along with some of the other major diseases that affect Havanese), not just because they were a "genetically engineered" individual. I can refer you to more reading if you want.

So basically, I am not saying genetics will ensure a healthy dog every time (everyone has mutations apart from what they inherit from their parents, including you and me). But in purebreds, you will increase their lifespan if you can "breed away" genes that are harmful, and identify new mutations as they arise and eliminate them as well.

As far as the health of a purebred vs a "mutt", I am not claiming a purebred will live longer even if its bad genes are removed in the next generation, I am just saying that the lives of our purebred dogs will be extended if we keep characterizing (ie identifying) and breeding away from those bad genes.


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## KristinFusco (Jun 5, 2007)

Oh and I forgot, in regards to it being better or not better to inbreed, Amanda, you are right, evolutionarily it is WORSE TO INBREED! HOWEVER, we are dog fanciers, and in the purebred dog world, we aren't really trying to "evolve", we are trying to maintain the status quo to a certain extent (ie stay within the standard), and maybe tweak it a little. So what applies to people (diversity, more genes etc) doesn't apply in this case. So inbreeding is "bad" evolutionarily, but line breeding with the genome characterized as well as we can is "good" for the dog breeding world. A lot of scientists disagree with the AKC and the inbreeding they have incurred, but that isn't the argument here. It is probably not the best evolutionarily, but line breeding healthy Havanese from our relatively small pool is the only way to maintain the characteristics of the breed we love. Whether it is "right" or not is the question debated by ethicists


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## KristinFusco (Jun 5, 2007)

I promise I will shut up after this and stop being annoying  

Keep in mind though, if a negative mutation arises in a population, it MAY eventually cause bad health effects for these people, too. Genetics is also somewhat a matter of chance regarding how long it takes for a bad mutation to occur in a person, show itself and to spread significantly throughout a population. It is one of the reasons that certain groups or races of people now seek genetic counselors (so they can see if they are carrying a certain recessive gene that may be more common in their ancestors or relatives and decide appropriately if they want to reproduce or not to avoid giving it to their children).


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Kristin,
I think it all very interesting. As soon as I saw the part in the article about hemophilia I remembered learning that in grade school. Actually one of the reasons I kind of find it interesting is one of my best friends is a result of inbreeding. Her parents are first cousins. She is from the middle east and as in the article, there isn't as much of a stigma. Well needless to say, she is perfectly healthy at 27- even intelligent, we went to law school together.

I also understand what you are saying about the nature of purebreed dogs. But isn't there always the scare that you did too much inbreeding and as the last part of the article says


> However, most experts would agree that practicing outbreeding will provide a population with the best opportunity to achieve a high level of health.


 Because it may not be smart to limit the havanese population to a small number of dogs and then line breed them to rid one known ailment CD since you might produce something that could hurt hurt the breed farther? I guess I just think it seems obvious to use the larger population of havanese and test them rather than limit the population from the get go based on something like tail set? It just seems like it would be smart to keep the entire population of dogs and just health test them? Maybe I am not quite getting it?

Amanda


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Amanda,

I'm sure that better health care for dogs could lead to a healthier and perhaps bigger (taller) dog... but changing their actual appearance (other than size) doesn't seem likely to me, at least not at a genetic level.

Kristin,

I'm happy to find another scientist here too! I'm a Biochemist who focuses on Structural Biology (getting my Ph.D.), but I've done quite a bit of genetics so I feel pretty confident commenting on it. It seems like you do a lot more Genetics and know a lot more than I do! I always enjoy a good scientific discussion. 

:focus:


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

okay another article I found to clutter my mind- even talks about outbreeding!

http://www.longhairedwhippet.com/effects_of_closed_registries.htm


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## KristinFusco (Jun 5, 2007)

Lina, that's awesome that you are working on a Ph.D. What a huge accomplishment! Biochem is a hard subject, kudos to you! I majored in chemical engineering undergrad, and I am finishing up my masters now in molecular biotechnology and I am trying to decide if I am staying for my Ph.D. SO I only have 2 years of pure genetics experience, so I am no expert, but I study hard and do my best. It is difficult because we live in CT and I have to commute down to school in Philly (UGH), because my husband's group from his work moved to a firm in CT in February of this year, and we didn't want to live apart while I finished my degree.

Amanda,

I want to say I appreciate all of these questions! You are catching on really quickly and I think your level of understanding is awesome. That is interesting about your friend from the middle east, especially since that was one of the subgroups mentioned in the article that had experienced "success" of sorts with consanguinity. 

I think what you are getting at is about the HSD vs Havanese argument, as in, shouldn't they just stay within this Havanese gene pool and try and breed out the diseases here as opposed to breaking away and starting over with a smaller pool of genes?

My gut reaction, without knowing ANYTHING about the history between the two groups, would be that it would seem better to keep the diversity genetically by not breaking away and trying to breed out disease from the larger pool of genes. One of the things I love so much about the breed is the diversity of color and markings, I would hate for every dog to eventually look exactly the same like the maltese do (no offense to maltese owners). But I think there are two reasons that they aren't doing this (and I may be wrong, I have never spoken to any of them personally on the issue, this is strictly my opinion after reading the postings here). The major issue seems to be that there are some really great Havanese breeders who care about the health of their dogs (and owners like all of us!), but there are also some who insist that CD isn't a disease and keep breeding dogs with it, even though the research has shown that in Havanese it is linked to other inherited health problems that affect the dog's quality of life. I think the HSD people are frustrated with the latter group of breeders, and with the fact that they are still able to register their dogs with the AKC as HAvanese even though they have bad health problems that negatively affect the breed and make the dogs look "different" (ie extreme bow legs). I imagine that is where this whole fight stems from. 

The second reason I think they are doing it is that they have enough breeders who are interested in breeding more towards the phenotype they favor, and enough examples of these dogs to provide what they deem "sufficient" diversity in their gene pool. But if you notice in some of the Q and A, it seems that anyone who has a Havanese and can prove straight front legs and pass an evaluation could qualify. So even though my Havanese doesn't look like their HSD's (he's bigger, has a wavier coat, and seems broader in the chest than their dogs), it SEEMS he could qualify under their rules because he has his CHIC #, passed all his health tests and has straight front legs as evaluated in soaped photos. I think they want to breed back to what they believe to be the original "Cuban dog", but I also think a lot of this is anger at some Havanese breeders who know that we have the technology to "get rid" of some of the major diseases in the Havanese and choose not to.

Maybe I am wrong, that is just my take  GOing to the beach today, talk to you guys tomorrow.

~Kristin


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

Now as far as I know its all just a theroy isnt it? This is very interesting to me, this is what I have read and Im sure most of you have read the same thing.
*Theory # 1* - One hypothesis is that Italians from Emelia moved to Argentina with their little bichon-type dogs, where they were bred with a small South-American poodle ( now extinct) to create a new breed. Later, the dogs made their way to Cuba, where they became known as the Havanese.

*Theory # 2* - Others, including the esteemed writer, Deschambre, were convinced that the Havanese were descended directly from the Maltese, and that the Spaniards brought the breed to the West Indies where they were known as the Havana Silk Dog.

*Theory # 3* Another theory is that the breed arrived in Cuba during the days of the expanding Spanish Empire.

*Theory # 4* - The theory held in most popular belief is that of the Cubans themselves. Cubans maintain that the first Havanese were brought to their shores by commercial ship's captains who raised them on board their ships or perhaps exchanged them with other traders. In those times, sea merchants were a rough and tumble lot. Approved cargo was often traded for more lucrative illicit cargo along the way. In all likelihood, there were as many pirates and private traders as there were commercial traders supplying the island. Any sea merchants arriving on Cuba to engage in trade knew their financial success depended largely on the support and business of wealthy Cubans. Presenting affluent wives with the gift of a small rare dog was a clever ploy that turned out to be instrumental in gaining the traders entry into the influential Hispanic homes that might otherwise have turned them away. The captains of different vessels traded dogs with each other so that they could return to each port with a dazzling variety of coat colours to enchant and delight the families. According to this theory, it is this extensive trading and colour mixing that resulted in the very impressive coat variety of today's Havanese which can be found in every colour and nearly every variant of marking seen in dogs.

*Theory # 5* - Cuban author, Zoila Portuendo Guerra, who was the founder of the Habanero Club in Cuba brings forth perhaps the most logical theory in her book titled "Bichon Havanese". Her extensive research has attempted to sort through the lore, fact and fiction and presents a very plausible progression that incorporates facets of the many other theories long held in popular belief. She is adamant that there have been two Cuban breeds.

According to her, the first of these, was the now extinct "Blankito de la Havana" developed on the island in the16th and 17th centuries during the days of Spanish colonization. This breed would have been a refinement of small bichons and lap dogs brought over directly from Spain or smuggled in illicitly by pirates and sea merchants. During these times, in Europe, the height of fashion were tiny immaculate white dogs as companions to the ladies of high society. The Cubans emulated this fashion in the development of the Blankito. He would have been a very small dog, weighing just 3-6 pounds, pure white, with a very silky, perhaps curly long coat. This original Cuban dog, the Blankito would have been the breed that returned to the continent in the early 18th century to be recognised with much fanfare. Much of the confusion surrounding the breed may come from the fact that in Cuba it was erroneously referred to as the "Maltese" while in Britain it was acclaimed as the "White Cuban". It was known throughout the rest of Europe as the "Havanese " because it came from Havana or later as the "Havana Silk Dog" because of their profuse soft coats. Mrs Guerra maintains that the Blankito would have remained a tiny white charmer till the early 19th century.

In the early 1800's many immigrants from Continental Europe settled on the island bringing with them their own little lap dogs, most notably small coloured poodles from France, Belgium and Germany. These new dogs were bred with the Blankito and a new breed subsequently evolved, a little bit larger and with a coat of many colours. The author portends that this second native of Cuba, created on the island during the 19th century is the Havanese breed as we know it today. Is this finally the actual account of our breed's history and development? ...... perhaps .... but who can say for sure?


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

In the early 1970's Bert and Dorothy Goodale of Colorado began looking for a small breed to raise which would have a calm temperament and intelligence; attributes that they most cherished in dogs. They had considerable experience raising Irish Wolfhounds and Soft Coated Wheaten Terriers. After a few years of investigation, elusive references to the Havanese had caught their attention, but no one knew how/where to obtain them. The Goodales chanced across an advertisement that resulted in the purchase of 6 pedigreed Havanese. These included one dam along with four female progeny and a young unrelated male. The Goodales became completely enchanted with the delightful nature of the breed and strove to gather more of the little Cuban exiles. Some months later, through advertisements placed in Spanish language papers came another breakthrough. Ezekiel Barba, an elderly Cuban who had fled during the revolution and subsequently settled in Costa Rica was moving to Texas to live with a daughter. Because of failing health, he could no longer care for his Havanese entourage. He entrusted the Goodales with 5 of his Havanese. This gave the Goodales two new bloodlines to work with. Both the first and second groups of dogs displayed the same look; sweet, gentle temperament and were of similar size (as adults , averaging 10-12 lbs and 9-10 inches tall). Based on the written pedigree information that came with the dogs , a 1963 breed standard and her years of breeding knowledge, Dorothy carefully began a breeding program to prevent the possible extinction of this delightful toy breed. We, who have come to know and love the Havanese, will be ever grateful for her dedicated efforts.
Not till 1991 was anyone sure that the Havanese still existed in Cuba. The Bichon Habanero Club was established to study the island's remaining indigenous dogs to ascertain their purebred status. After careful study and consideration, a closely supervised breeding program was put into place using a foundation stock of approximately 15 dogs. In 1997 the first Havanese was exported from Cuba to the Netherlands. As in days gone by, the Havanese is again making its mark as the Bichon of Cuba, though no longer as a token of high society. In Cuba today, Havanese can be found in great numbers in the Capital of Havana as well as in the towns throughout the countryside. Whether he is peeking through balcony railings, gracing a country porch, or walking at his owners side; he is a charming pet for all. In a loving tribute to its native breed, Cuba chose the image of a Havanese to grace a 1992 souvenir issue postage stamp.

The Havanese, though still quite rare is gaining popularity in North America and throughout Europe


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

KristinFusco said:


> Oh and I forgot, in regards to it being better or not better to inbreed, Amanda, you are right, evolutionarily it is WORSE TO INBREED! HOWEVER, we are dog fanciers, and in the purebred dog world, we aren't really trying to "evolve", we are trying to maintain the status quo to a certain extent (ie stay within the standard), and maybe tweak it a little. So what applies to people (diversity, more genes etc) doesn't apply in this case. So inbreeding is "bad" evolutionarily, but line breeding with the genome characterized as well as we can is "good" for the dog breeding world. A lot of scientists disagree with the AKC and the inbreeding they have incurred, but that isn't the argument here. It is probably not the best evolutionarily, but line breeding healthy Havanese from our relatively small pool is the only way to maintain the characteristics of the breed we love. Whether it is "right" or not is the question debated by ethicists


Wow. I'm in heaven. Someone pinch me.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

ama0722 said:


> I also understand what you are saying about the nature of purebreed dogs. But isn't there always the scare that you did too much inbreeding and as the last part of the article says Because it may not be smart to limit the havanese population to a small number of dogs and then line breed them to rid one known ailment CD since you might produce something that could hurt hurt the breed farther? I guess I just think it seems obvious to use the larger population of havanese and test them rather than limit the population from the get go based on something like tail set? It just seems like it would be smart to keep the entire population of dogs and just health test them? Maybe I am not quite getting it?
> 
> Amanda


Just remember : Genetic diversity doesn't mean every litter. It can mean several different lines (different breeders). In dogs, you only outcross when things aren't going right (unless you just don't believe in linebreeding).


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

now if you go by theroy 1 if the bichon-(type) which is it a bichon it does say type dogs was breed with the South-American poodle ( now extinct) how can we breed back to the orginal breed was
Theroy 2Havanese were descended directly from the Maltese, and that the Spaniards brought the breed to the West Indies where they were known as the Havana Silk you all get the picture Im sure so whos to say which theroy is correct since there is no way of know which theroy is correct. This is where I get confused at. my opion is to breed the havanese breed just they way there are with out changing the look or personality but to try to remove the "bad" problys that they carry like leg bowing,ect.


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## Greg (Oct 25, 2006)

susaneckert said:


> now if you go by theroy 1 if the bichon-(type) which is it a bichon it does say type dogs was breed with the South-American poodle ( now extinct) how can we breed back to the orginal breed was
> Theroy 2Havanese were descended directly from the Maltese, and that the Spaniards brought the breed to the West Indies where they were known as the Havana Silk you all get the picture Im sure so whos to say which theroy is correct since there is no way of know which theroy is correct. This is where I get confused at. my opion is to breed the havanese breed just they way there are with out changing the look or personality but to try to remove the "bad" problys that they carry like leg bowing,ect.


that was tried for 8 years. still nothing. And when the dogs that were bred away from CD started looking totally different, well what's the definition of a breed again? A group of dogs that look like each other and breed true (paraphrase). We weren't the ones saying our Dogs weren't havenese, those who are yelling the loudest were the ones. We just agreed with them


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

thank you greg it can be so confusing to me any ways but when you are new to the breed and if you dont ask question then you will never know.All the information is what I found when before I got yoda when I was doing a little research on the breed, I do fine it very interesting that is for sure . Im not one to say who is right and who is wrong I just want to know the history more or less if that makes any since .


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Kristin,
Thanks! I called my girlfriend today and told her I was talking about her and she said you better not send photos (she knows I post photos of my dogs and there are quite a few of her with the pups!)

I think it makes sense and I really just understand the difference between the look and the health better. I just thought right off the bat about limiting populations= bad. 

This also came up yesterday as I ran a Border Collie in agility and I asked her if her dogs were finished. Well I struck a cord there too! Most BC people are completely against the AKC because they think it is wrong to breed for a look rather you breed for ability to herd. She said they do health testing and tend to have very little health problems that way. She says herding dogs have to be healthy first and then have temperment so a lot of dogs breed just for phenotype aren't good herding dogs. It was interesting as we were just talking about all this stuff so I felt like I actually understood a lot more!

I just have trouble thinking good breeders wouldn't breed for health first and foremost and then show qualities later but then again I just want a healthy pet!

Amanda


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## KristinFusco (Jun 5, 2007)

Hi Amanda!

Thanks for the message. I am a little confused about your first line about sending photos, did you mean that your friend said not to send her photo or that I shouldn't send mine :biggrin1: 

That is so cool that you work with border collies!!!!!! I grew up on a sheep farm and we had three for working purposes, and they all looked so different! Except for the black/white pattern, you could hardly tell they were the same breed.

I agree with you, it is upsetting to think that some breeders aren't concerned about health as their top priority. That is why all of us who love our Havs so much have to buy from breeders who health test! 

Talk to you soon,

Kristin


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Kristin,
I was meaning her photo. She knows I am always taking photos of the girls for the list and to share. She said don't be saying this is an example of inbreeding!<BG>

I love the BC's. They are absolutely brillant and maybe some day when I have a lot more time and a lot bigger yard, I will have one! Their intelligent is absolutely amazing but I do understand when people joke that you should never own a dog smarter than you My friend has 3 of them and her male is my favorite. You don't need to give him a cookie to do something, he just wants interaction all the time and he has an off switch! I find it really interesting that they are against breeding for a type but only for working ability.

Amanda


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

> I was meaning her photo. She knows I am always taking photos of the girls for the list and to share. She said don't be saying this is an example of inbreeding!<BG>


 LOL!! That's funny.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Kimberly,
It is especially if you have watched "my big fat greek wedding" that is exactly how her family is! We were at a party and a guy came up and said you and your wife look very similar and her dad quickly announced proudly "yes, we are cousins!" I was there for that conversation of it is not okay to say that stuff here! She absolutely has the sweetest parents so it is interesting that they have lived here over 10 years and still don't understand some culture differences including walking up to pay at restaurants before you get your bill! <BG>

Amanda


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## KristinFusco (Jun 5, 2007)

HAhaha Amanda I get it now! I was reading your post wrong. That is too funny about the whole "cousin" announcement the dad made, it is funny that what is considered cringe-worthy in America can be commonplace in other countries  . 

It is also interesting about the "look vs health" argument in dogs because some scientists believe that what society GENERALLY agrees on as "better looking" individuals carry "healthier genetics", and that is why humans are innately attracted to faces with certain proportions and things like that. I think that sometimes in the dog world, the problem is that some humans prefer a certain look for a dog that may be aesthetically pleasing to us but more "unhealthy" for the dog by decreasing its range of motion, increasing the instances of hip dysplasia etc. 

I know what you mean about the border collies and herding instinct being top priority, I used to know a lot of BC breeders who only selected parents based on health and herding instinct and could care less if every dog they produced looked extremely different. But maybe that is a function of being a working dog vs a companion dog?

~Kristin


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Kristin,
You have taught me so much this week including it wasn't my fault when I drooled at Ocean's 13 but it is just me liking the genes 

I do love BC's and if I ever had to live on a farm, I would have one for sure!

Amanda


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## KristinFusco (Jun 5, 2007)

LOL Amanda!!!!!!:whoo: 

There are definitely some good genes in that Ocean's 13 crew. 

I appreciate your kind words, it has been good talking about things with someone as fun and knowledgable about dogs as yourself  I was glad that you started a separate post for this thread because I started getting really sad reading the "Different Breeds" chat. All I know is that I love my Havanese and as long as he is healthy, that is all I care about!!!!! Hope you all have a fabulous evening!

~Kristin


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## KristinFusco (Jun 5, 2007)

Hi guys!

I had one more thing to say on this topic. I just wanted to clarify that I was talking about the removal of genetic diseases, but that doesn't prevent INFECTIOUS diseases from affecting a health tested Hav. One of the negative aspects to line breeding is that when members of a population have a similar genome (ie there isn't a variety of genes), then a higher percentage of the dogs will be susceptible to certain diseases because there are fewer individuals who have favorable genetic mutations that allow them to survive it.

Although I don't always trust Wikipedia , there is a good article there that talks about cheetahs and the fact that they are so inbred due to "limiting populations" that an infectious disease that only affects a small percentage of other cats affects a large percentage of the cheetahs because they have similar genomes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding (see the results of inbreeding section)

Also, there can be such a thing as a "limiting value" for genes where if you get below a critical number of individuals, you don't have the variety of genes to allow for successful reproduction. Sometimes this happens with animals who are about to go extinct. I can try and find an article on this, PM me if you are interested 

This is just a broad overview, there are so many issues at play, I am not sure what the right answer is, I think it will be somewhere in between line breeding to maintain the traits we like and perhaps the occasional outcross to introduce more genetic variety so as not to make ones line susceptible in higher percentages to certain infectious diseases.


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