# New Here but need help



## Jazzy'smom (May 26, 2012)

Hi, I am new here but need some desparate help please.

We had a yorkie for 13 years who recently passed away. We had her before we had children and she was not socialized properly. We did not get her until she was 12 weeks of age and when our children came along, she would nip at them etc. Plus she didn't like strangers and we could never answer the door without hiding her in another room.

So after she passed we searched for the perfect breed of dog for our family, that would be good with strangers and and our children. That is why we chose a havanese.

So we set out to find a good breeder and one where we could get a new puppy as soon as possible. Well, found one but there were red flags. First she did not offer any kind of health guarantee. Second red flag is that you were not able to even touch the puppies until they were 8 weeks old; however, I put that aside thinking the socialization period for dogs is between 4 to 12 weeks of age so thought that would give us plenty of time.

Brought our new pup home, Jazzy. She has been a biter from the get go. I realize pups like to bite but it is constant. No matter what we do, she does not listen or stop and my younger kids are scared of her because of this, and mainly this also stems from the yorkie we had.

We have put her on her back to show who is the "alpha" male so to speak as per the breeder. 

She started to growl at one of my kids, and today she growled at me when I went to pet her while she was falling asleep on my lap, so I turned her over on her back and she growled more and then tried to bite me. *sigh*

I am devestated and I have three kids to worry about. Plus since the day we have had her she has had the diarrhea off and on. She tested positive for a parasite, isospora, and was treated for it but still has the diahrea off and on and now the vet is going to be treating her for campylobacter, because her litter mates tested positive for this.

She has cost me a fortune in vet bills. As much as we have become attached to her and love her, I did request from the breeder for a full refund and to return her. I just can't have another aggressive dog with three children in the house. The breeder has refused to return her. 

I am so sad. Just wondering if anyone has any kind of advice?

I just don't understand that this breed was supposed to have a good temperment and that is not what we got. I am sure there are exceptions but just at a loss for what to do. 

Oh and she is 13 weeks old now and we got her when she was 8 weeks old.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi and Welcome. First get the medical issues settled. And at the same time book a trainer. You need help fast. You've got some wrong ideas . Putting puppies on their backs like you're describing is a no no. If you really want to keep this pup, time is of the essensce. Keep the children away for now. If you want help finding a trainer , email me privately. There's no such thing as a perfect breed of dog. Any dog can end up like this.


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

Please consider what Dave has said. Our McGee just gnawed at my hands and arms continually the first month or two with me saying "no bite" and pulling him away. Most of it is just "puppy" behavior so I wouldn't worry too much but you don't want to let it go, either. BTW, McGee is a perfect little angel (most of the time) now! I absolutely understand your worry with children to consider. We got this breed mainly because we had very young grandchildren at the time. Both of our dogs love the kids!


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## Jazzy'smom (May 26, 2012)

davetgabby said:


> Hi and Welcome. First get the medical issues settled. And at the same time book a trainer. You need help fast. You've got some wrong ideas . Putting puppies on their backs like you're describing is a no no. If you really want to keep this pup, time is of the essensce. Keep the children away for now. If you want help finding a trainer , email me privately. There's no such thing as a perfect breed of dog. Any dog can end up like this.


Why is putting them on their backs a "no, no"? That is what the breeder told us to do to teach her that we are the alpha male?


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## miller123 (Aug 13, 2011)

Jazzy'smom said:


> Why is putting them on their backs a "no, no"? That is what the breeder told us to do to teach her that we are the alpha male?


I was told to do this by a family member who has had at least 5 dogs, but I looked it up and it said that this is a no no because, in the wild, the only reason that they will hold eachother on there backs is if they where going to kill, I was told it would be an equil to holding a gun to sombodys head. Plus, it damages your relationship with the puppy. Have you tryed clicker training? google it and try it. I get my clickers from petsmart, there by the training aera and sell for about 1.99.

here are a few videos--


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## Jazzy'smom (May 26, 2012)

Thanks miller123. That is so very helpful and I am feeling now like we created this aggressive puppy.  Makes me so upset that the breeder told us to do this. I hope this can be corrected. I am going to enroll in some puppy training classes as well.


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## marlowe'sgirl (Jun 17, 2010)

Get the health issues sorted out first. My Hav is a love - never met a stranger personality. But when he was sick (diarrhea/rxn to flea meds), he turned into a grumpy, growling, snarling little guy. It was a complete 180 from his normal self. One he was better, he was back to giving everyone kisses.

Also, training classes! A lot has changed theory-wise in the last decade on how to raise and socialize a pup. Those classes are mostly about teaching you and your family how to respond to your pup to reinforce good behaviors and stop unwanted behaviors. Havanese are great family dogs - but proper socialization is paramount. At this young age, behavior issues are likely due to your lack of communication with your pup (or that he's not feeling well) and not anything inherently 'wrong' with your puppy.

Are you crate-training your pup? For the example where you said your pup growled as she was trying to go to sleep - she could just be worn out from overstimulation. It's important your pup has a safe place to sleep/hide/relax from your 3 kids. My first few weeks with my Hav were very regimented. Limited playtime (30min-1 hr at a time, multiple times a day), lots of nap time or quiet time with teething toys - usually in his crate (many folks use an expen), long walks, distinct potty times and of course, puppy classes + puppy play sessions. The first two weeks for me were not all 'yaypuppyfuntimes' but establishing clear routines and communications.


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## Kalico (Jan 11, 2012)

Biting and nipping is fairly normal puppy behavior, and it can seem like that period lasts forever and they just don't "get it." I'm not sure about Havs, since my Hav never really did this, but I know with my lab my bf would be bleeding just from playing with him. He would always, always be nippy and bitey. It is how they play. The only thing that worked with him was holding his mouth shut and saying "no bite," but different dogs respond to different things. Then one day it just ended, and wasn't a problem anymore.

As for the growling, that would worry me. It could be related to the health issue and not feeling well, so get that sorted. But I echo getting a trainer in. Puppy classes might be a good thing, too.

So sorry you are going through this!


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Jazzy'smom said:


> Why is putting them on their backs a "no, no"? That is what the breeder told us to do to teach her that we are the alpha male?


Yikes! I did this with Fred. I wonder if that's why he has so many issues..... I feel bad now. I think I killed his spirit...sigh

Good luck with your pup. I hope Dave can give you some good advice. I've gotten a lot of good tips and info from him!


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## miller123 (Aug 13, 2011)

You also should never punish growling, thats your best warning sign that she is going to bite. puppy classes will also do wonders in getting her used to other dogs


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

Jazzy'smom said:


> Why is putting them on their backs a "no, no"? That is what the breeder told us to do to teach her that we are the alpha male?


Hope you can work things out for the best for everyone in your family, including your puppy!!


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## angiern2004 (Apr 24, 2011)

I have (well had) an overly mouthy puppy. One day he just got the clue that biting will not get him the attention he wanted. He's now a monster-licker (I say that with lots of love). Everything is lick lick lick lick. 

I agree, get the medical needs cleared up then hire a trainer pronto. In the meantime, my advice, from having been there, is to get up and walk thru a doorway and close the door every time he bites. Do not say a thing to him, do not look at him, do not do the "pulling away" dance. Just get up, walk away, and thru a doorway, but do so very calmly). Don't worry, your pup will not take off and tear stuff up while the door is closed (for 45 seconds, but don't feel like you have to exactly time it), because he will probably just stand there looking at the door trying to figure out what the heck you're doing. This will, until you get professional help, remove the reward he's getting from biting and give you a few seconds to cool off so you won't feel tempted to alpha roll him. Remember that ANY attention (talking to him, looking at him, the dance of pulling away from the bites) are REWARDS, he thinks you are playing. Everyone in the house needs to have the same reaction EVERY single time. 

I've been there. I understand. It takes time and perseverance. There is light at the end of the tunnel. 

This is not professional advice, but a technique my trainer taught me, and is someplace to START while you're waiting for training. And I just realized I wrote this whole thing saying him and he, so if your puppy is a girl and I missed that, my sincerest apologies. With a household of boys, it's second nature for me to say he and him.


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## angiern2004 (Apr 24, 2011)

Oh, I forgot to add to make sure your puppy is getting lotsssssss of naps. Mouthy puppies can be REALLY mouthy (almost mouthy aggressive) when they are overstimulated and overtired. Make sure your puppy has naps on the outskirts of the flurry of activity in your house. A crate or expen is good for forcing them to go down for a nap (it helps settle them). 

Just think, overstimulated and overtired human babies get crabbier the more tired they get. It's really no different here.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi again , some good advice being given here. Second video is great. Kikopups has the best training videos. My concern is the pups age. The window for optimal socialization is closing between 12 weeks and 16 weeks. I would recommend some one on one time with a trainer coming in for two hours , into your home with everyone present. Classes are great, but I'm thinking you should have a GOOD trainer determine whether that is your best option at this stage. You need some quick advice before things get worse. This is a very impressionable time in your pups live. Here's some reading that can help. Before You Get Your Puppy by Ian Dunbar http://www.siriuspup.com/pdfs/before_puppy_sirius.pdf

After You Get Your Puppy by Ian Dunbar http://www.dogstardaily.com/files/AFTER You Get Your Puppy.pdf

If you decide to look for a trainer, my offer still holds. Just beware there are plenty of trainers that will tell you the same bs. as your breeder. Here's a bonus article. http://www.apdt.com/about/ps/dominance.aspx You might want to send it to your breeder.


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

I would also like to add that you should make sure puppy is getting plenty of naps.
Note too, that as a pup she is learning and exploring with her mouth, body nd even noises. Maybe learning curve from having an older dog?
I hope things go better, this breed has wonderful DNA for learning and temperment so give it a chance.


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## LJS58 (Mar 23, 2012)

Jazzy'smom said:


> Thanks miller123. That is so very helpful and I am feeling now like we created this aggressive puppy.  Makes me so upset that the breeder told us to do this. I hope this can be corrected. I am going to enroll in some puppy training classes as well.


First of all, I applaud you for seeking out good advice and for being pro-active about fixing any issues you may have. You absolutely can make this situation better. As stated before, the first step is finding a good trainer. There are many opinions about trainers, but remember that Havs are smart and sensitive, so using an agressive training approach will only create more problems. I was fortunate to find a really good dog training school that emphasizes positive reinforcement and they made all the difference. Remember that trainers are actually training you - so that you can train your dog - which is very empowering. Best of luck!


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## FancyNancy (Oct 7, 2009)

Listen to Dave! He is an expert and many of us consider him our dog guru.


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## Jazzy'smom (May 26, 2012)

Wow, thank you all so much for the advice.

She has had lots of socialization with kids and other people but not too much with dogs. Good news is that she is happy and playful around the kids. She only growled at one of my kiddos twice and then she growled a couple of times at my husband when he went to pick her up from somewhere she wasn't supposed to be. She growled and went to bite me when she was laying on my lap and started to fall asleep. I started to pet her and that is when she growled.

So I found a trainer that will come into our home. She spends 2 to 4 hours with us the first day and then you go to her home the second time to learn how to walk properly on a leash and with other dogs present. She charges $300.

Or, I can taker her to puppy classes and that trainer charges $199. Both use positive training.

Which route do you all think I should take?

Here is a link for the first trainer I mentioned that will come into our home: http://www.dogbehave.ca/

.. and here is the link for the trainer that is offering classes starting tomorrow evening. They are the back to basics class: http://www.caninecommunication.net/

Just curious to know if any of you think one might be better over the other? TIA


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Jazzy'smom said:


> Wow, thank you all so much for the advice.
> 
> She has had lots of socialization with kids and other people but not too much with dogs. Good news is that she is happy and playful around the kids. She only growled at one of my kiddos twice and then she growled a couple of times at my husband when he went to pick her up from somewhere she wasn't supposed to be. She growled and went to bite me when she was laying on my lap and started to fall asleep. I started to pet her and that is when she growled.
> 
> ...


Not sure why I wasn't notified of this response automaticallly but., I did get your PM. As I mentioned I'll get back to you tonight. :canada:


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## miller123 (Aug 13, 2011)

Jazzy'smom said:


> Wow, thank you all so much for the advice.
> 
> She has had lots of socialization with kids and other people but not too much with dogs. Good news is that she is happy and playful around the kids. She only growled at one of my kiddos twice and then she growled a couple of times at my husband when he went to pick her up from somewhere she wasn't supposed to be. She growled and went to bite me when she was laying on my lap and started to fall asleep. I started to pet her and that is when she growled.
> 
> ...


I would personaly get the trainer to come into your home, just because I know somtimes you dont notice this, (and I did it once or twice when i got miller) but somtimes you are doing somthing wrong thats causing growling. Then i would also do puppy classes. Hope i helped good luck


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Maybe I missed this info somewhere but, how old are your kids?


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

miller123 said:


> I would personaly get the trainer to come into your home, just because I know somtimes you dont notice this, (and I did it once or twice when i got miller) but somtimes you are doing somthing wrong thats causing growling. Then i would also do puppy classes. Hope i helped good luck


Good advice, that's what I told her privately. LOL


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## Jazzy'smom (May 26, 2012)

miller123 said:


> I would personaly get the trainer to come into your home, just because I know somtimes you dont notice this, (and I did it once or twice when i got miller) but somtimes you are doing somthing wrong thats causing growling. Then i would also do puppy classes. Hope i helped good luck


I would love to do both, but unfortunately I can't afford that much. For both it would total $500. :jaw:


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## Jazzy'smom (May 26, 2012)

mellowbo said:


> Maybe I missed this info somewhere but, how old are your kids?


They are 10, 7 and 5.


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