# Extra Toes???



## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

I honestly had no clue where to post this, so into general it goes. Are extra toes unheard of in dogs? I know they aren't uncommon in cats, but I've never heard of dogs having extra toes, and I am pretty sure Nino has an extra toe on his two front feet. He was had his dewclaws removed, and he has just the 4 toes on his back feet, but he definitely has 5 individual claws on the front feet, the 5th ones on the inside a little higher up with a tiny little pad. In my frantic research last night, I found that some dogs are just born with two dewclaws; is this probably the case, the vet having somehow missed the other ones (I feel like it is strange that the breeder and two vets would all miss this, especially at just a couple days old)? They are quite tiny compared to the nub of the dewclaw. Is this actually completely normal in Havs, me just having a brain fart? Mario certainly doesn't have them. If it's not a second dewclaw, what might it be? Will it affect his ability to be shown? All of this is so weird to me, so I apologize for the poor wording in this post. Anyone have any explanations?


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## M&J (Mar 1, 2016)

op2: I'm waiting on answers for this myself. Intriguing......


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## Ollie"s Mom (May 23, 2014)

Have definitely heard of polydactyl cats, but never polydactyl dogs. Post a picture, this is fascinating.


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

The photo adding ability changed for me, but here it is. We are sending an email to our breeder tomorrow to see what she knows about it. It's quite small and wouldn't even be noticeable without the nail.


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

Just reread the breed standard, which says dewclaws _may_ be removed. If this is in fact an extra dewclaw (which, given its positioning, it very well may be), we are fine in the show ring, we just have a unique pup (and a little more Nino to love).


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

wow I've not heard of that either. Unless like you say it was double dewclaws but surely they would have seen that when the declaws were removed and done them both. Are you sure his dewclaws were removed? Are they in the same spot as dew claws normally are?


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

I had the same thought as DeeDee... Maybe they didn't remove the dewclaws? It sure looks like a dewclaw. Did the breeder say they were removed?


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

Dee Dee said:


> wow I've not heard of that either. Unless like you say it was double dewclaws but surely they would have seen that when the declaws were removed and done them both. Are you sure his dewclaws were removed? Are they in the same spot as dew claws normally are?


There are very distinct nubs where the dewclaws would have been. He has a vet appointment in a couple weeks, so we'll find out what's happening then, or sooner if our breeder can give us some answers. We'll keep everyone updated!


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

It really looks like a dewclaw to me....maybe his weren't removed and that is what you are seeing?

Oh I see Heather already asked this...that is what it would seem to me also.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

In re-reading your original post, makes even more sense his dewclaws were never removed. Double dewclaws are pretty much crammed in there together and it would take a lot of work to take off one and not the other on each foot, they would have had to do that intentionally it couldn't be missed. And there would be no reason for them to leave one and take the other.

Dewclaws do have a little nub of a pad of their own.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Scout has his dewclaws and it looks exactly like your picture.


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

Hehe it definitely is a dewclaw. I was under the impression that they had been removed (thought I had heard our breeder say that, but apparently not), so I wasn't even thinking a dewclaw was a possibility, despite the fact that it seemed to be one. Silly me :doh: Thanks all.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Why do they remove dewclaws? I know Willow has had her dewclaws removed and my corgi had also had hers removed.


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## PaulineMi (Feb 5, 2016)

Most people feel that the dewclaws can get caught on things and tear away from the leg. It's a preventative measure. There is, however, a school of thought that it's actually a toe with a nail that can assist in balance when a dog is running and makes quick turns.


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

It can also be a cosmetic thing. I am on the "leave the dewclaw be" team. Usually, if they are well maintained, snagging shouldn't be a problem. They provide better traction for dogs in all areas (I watched a cool video of dogs with dewclaws pulling themselves out of ice when dogs without couldn't), and dogs will often use them to grip toys. They aren't opposable, of course, but they do have some movement. I say if it ain't broke, don't fix it.


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

Video I mentioned, if you folks are interested.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Great video! That's probably why Scout has his dewclaws. There's lot's of snow and ice where he is from. I know his breeder takes her dogs cross country skiing and hiking. It is amazing what a difference those little dewclaws make.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KarMar said:


> I honestly had no clue where to post this, so into general it goes. Are extra toes unheard of in dogs? I know they aren't uncommon in cats, but I've never heard of dogs having extra toes, and I am pretty sure Nino has an extra toe on his two front feet. He was had his dewclaws removed, and he has just the 4 toes on his back feet, but he definitely has 5 individual claws on the front feet, the 5th ones on the inside a little higher up with a tiny little pad. In my frantic research last night, I found that some dogs are just born with two dewclaws; is this probably the case, the vet having somehow missed the other ones (I feel like it is strange that the breeder and two vets would all miss this, especially at just a couple days old)? They are quite tiny compared to the nub of the dewclaw. Is this actually completely normal in Havs, me just having a brain fart? Mario certainly doesn't have them. If it's not a second dewclaw, what might it be? Will it affect his ability to be shown? All of this is so weird to me, so I apologize for the poor wording in this post. Anyone have any explanations?


Are you SURE they didn't just inadvertently miss doing his dew claws when the other pups were done?

If not, and he truly had double dew claws in front, I think it's pretty uncommon. My understanding is that it CAN happen with any breed, but I've never heard of it with a Havanese. (I also don't believe in removing dew claws, especially in dogs who will be doing sports... though I know that's not your first plan)

I would talk to your breeder. I don't even know if an extra set of dew claws will be a problem for showing him. You want to make sure ASAP.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

PaulineMi said:


> Most people feel that the dewclaws can get caught on things and tear away from the leg. It's a preventative measure. There is, however, a school of thought that it's actually a toe with a nail that can assist in balance when a dog is running and makes quick turns.


More than a school of thought... It has been proven that agility dogs who have had their dew claws removed are much more prone to stress fractures and carpal arthritis, because they don't have a digit needed for gripping in quick turns and climbing.

It probably isn't a problem for a pet dog or show dog, but IMO, the biggest reason people remove them is because they are harder to clip than the other nails. (especially on our furry guys!) I'd much prefer that slight aggravation, however, over removing a part of a dog's anatomy that they really do use. (even if they are just doing RLH)


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

krandall said:


> That was my first thought too... But the photo makes it look like the claw is coming almost directly out of his leg... not on the end of a short digit, like a normal dew claw.
> 
> I'd also think that clipping these would be tough.


This made me take another look at Scout's dewclaws. I knew he had declaws and I checked his leg because of the pic. Scout's are part of his paw next to the pad. Maybe it just looks like Nino's leg because he is a puppy and his paws are not adult size?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Heather Glen said:


> Great video! That's probably why Scout has his dewclaws. There's lot's of snow and ice where he is from. I know his breeder takes her dogs cross country skiing and hiking. It is amazing what a difference those little dewclaws make.


There are actually LOTS of breeders who leave dew claws. Since the whole reason for me getting my dogs was to do dog sports with them, that was one of the criteria I used for picking a breeder. I did NOT want a dog without dew claws.

Here's an article about dew claws and their role in preventing wrist (carpus) injuries in agility dogs.


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

Heather Glen said:


> This made me take another look at Scout's dewclaws. I knew he had declaws and I checked his leg because of the pic. Scout's are part of his paw next to the pad. Maybe it just looks like Nino's leg because he is a puppy and his paws are not adult size?


The claw is attached to a digit, it's just barely noticeable in the photo because he's still tiny at this point (it took us 2 whole weeks to even notice it was there).

Our breeder doesn't remove dewclaws, as we found out when we emailed her about the situation. The reason there was any question about it at all for me was because I could have sworn she said she did at one point, but that was just in my mind


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

The groomer always trims Scout and Truffles nails so I haven't really checked their nails. I just checked Truffles. She is on the small size and I never noticed that she does have a very small declaws! They are barely noticeable under all that hair.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

I had wished Sophie's dew claws had been removed (they weren't) when I got her because they are so hard to clip. When Hallie got older and some arthritis in her feet it was terrible trying to bend the claw at an angle I could safely cut it without hurting her. We both hated it when it came to trimming her dew claw.

I can see where they would serve a purpose on the other hand. So am glad now that Sophie does have them.

Karen I don't see a link to the article you mentioned?


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

Emmie has her dewclaws and they're tiny since she's a little peanut.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KarMar said:


> The claw is attached to a digit, it's just barely noticeable in the photo because he's still tiny at this point (it took us 2 whole weeks to even notice it was there).
> 
> Our breeder doesn't remove dewclaws, as we found out when we emailed her about the situation. The reason there was any question about it at all for me was because I could have sworn she said she did at one point, but that was just in my mind


Ha! Well, that's the best answer of all! She didn't remove them, and didn't remove them on purpose! I'd much rather see our "natural" breed left natural! :cheer2:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dee Dee said:


> I had wished Sophie's dew claws had been removed (they weren't) when I got her because they are so hard to clip. When Hallie got older and some arthritis in her feet it was terrible trying to bend the claw at an angle I could safely cut it without hurting her. We both hated it when it came to trimming her dew claw.
> 
> I can see where they would serve a purpose on the other hand. So am glad now that Sophie does have them.
> 
> Karen I don't see a link to the article you mentioned?


Oops! Sorry! I thought I attached it:

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/documents/dewclaws-injury.pdf


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

MarinaGirl said:


> Emmie has her dewclaws and they're tiny since she's a little peanut.


Yes Pixel's are tiny, and the nails are thin, so they aren't hard to clip. Kodi has big, horny dew claws and I had a lot of trouble with them... Until I bought myself some GOOD nail clippers at a dog show, rather than the Petco variety. They slice through those nails like butter! And I don't think they pinch at all, so I can shave off just little bits to get them short enough without risking quicking him.

It took me 5 years to figure out that a lot of the reason that he complained when I trimmed his nails, and was GOOD for groomers when they did him wasn't JUST poor technique on my part, it was poor tools! :crazy:


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

krandall said:


> Oops! Sorry! I thought I attached it:
> 
> http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/documents/dewclaws-injury.pdf


Good read! Especially comforting considering we are thinking we will compete in agility with Nino once (if) he finishes his championship.

The article mentions arthritis resulting from the removal of the dewclaw in performance dogs, which is even more concerning considering the fact that the 5th digit is a big time arthritis acupoint.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Interesting video - thanks for posting. I never would have realized this before.


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