# ACVB, AVSAB, SVBT re: Cesar Millan



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior
www.AVSABonline.org
June 11, 2009
The executive board of the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior
(AVSAB) is deeply troubled to learn that Merial, a leader in the veterinary
healthcare industry, is using Cesar Millan in a promotional campaign for
Heartgard and Frontline. We are even more disturbed to find that Merial is
cross-promoting Mr. Millan's behavior video as part of this campaign. Merial's
executives may not be aware of the fact that the American College of Veterinary
Behaviorists (ACVB; www.dacvb.org), the American Veterinary Society of Animal
Behavior (AVSAB; www.avsabonline.org) and the Society of Veterinary Behavior
Technicians (SVBT; www.svbt.org) have uniformly spoken out against the
coercive, "dominance"-based techniques employed by Mr. Millan on his television
show "The Dog Whisperer."
At best, the show is entertaining but misleading to pet owners. At worst, Mr.
Millan's techniques and misinformation have contributed to increased aggression
and anxiety or resulted in physical injury to the pet and/or pet owner. As
practicing veterinarians, we all unfortunately have seen many cases of the latter.
Merial claims to "enhance the health, well-being, and performance of animals."
Asking veterinarians to recommend that their clients seek behavior information
from Mr. Millan speaks otherwise. In these difficult economic times, it may be
understandable that Merial would want to use a celebrity to advertise its products
in a direct-to-consumer fashion. However, had Merial taken the time to
investigate, it would have found that Mr. Millan's philosophy runs counter to the
standard-of-care promoted by veterinary behaviorists and taught at veterinary
schools.
For reference, we have attached AVSAB's position statements on the "Use of
Punishment in Behavior Modification in Animals" and "Dominance Theory in
Behavior Modification in Animals". You will find that these statements are based
in scientific research and do not support the techniques Mr. Millan promotes on
his show. We would also be happy to provide you with additional peer-reviewed
references indicating that the training methods televised on "The Dog Whisperer"
often lead to increased aggression and human injury.
American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior
www.AVSABonline.org
We are deeply saddened that Merial's executives are not more supportive of the
veterinary behavior community and its efforts to promote effective, scientificallybased,
humane training methods. We remain concerned that your company's
support of Mr. Millan's controversial training methods through the distribution of
his video and financial support of his show will contribute to the number of
difficult dogs and injured owners that we have to eventually console, counsel,
and reeducate.
Perhaps Merial would like to support our efforts to counteract the negative impact
of this unfortunate marketing choice that may ultimately serve to alienate
educated veterinarians, dog trainers, and owners alike. We would welcome the
opportunity to further discuss this issue with Merial.
Sincerely,
E. Kathryn Meyer, VMD (President)
John Ciribassi, DVM, DACVB (Immediate Past President)
Karen Sueda, DVM, DACVB (President Elect)
Kari Krause, DVM
Kelly Morgan, DVM
Valli Parthasarathy, PhD, DVM
Sophia Yin, DVM MS
Laurie Bergman, VMD, DACVB


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Cesar Milan does not practice dog training but rather dog physcology. I happen to believe in his techniques of dog physcology.

Sounds like a bunch of "hokey" to me...but people can form their own opinions. I just find it amazing how people like to throw a bunch of crap and see if any of it sticks,especially when that person has been successful. Sad that the world is like that...


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Well I cant say much on this as I never really watch Cesar but every dog trainer I have talked to or trained under cant stand him.

Julie I think you may have hit it on the head, he is not a trainer but but maybe more a dog physcology? I think part of training a dog with issues is first understanding what & where the issue came from, the long term training comes in after that. Unfortunetly some pet owners do not follow through with the long term part.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I agree with both. I like that his show has honestly gotten people walking their dogs and does offer some methods that people could use at home. I also liked how his book made concrete ideas for people as well. What a revolutionary idea about the dog walking 2 times a day for 30 minutes but hey it worked!  
I don't think his methods are for every dog but reality is you are gonna have people at home try stupid things with their own dog but these occured long before Cesear was even heard of. But a lot of dog trainers, I know, the ones who actually try to rehabilitate dogs do somewhat like him. Not the ones that teach puppy class only with a clicker but take the time out and get a dog that has been abused or chained up for years, etc. I think like everything out there, there are different tools and you need to know your dog before using any of them. And to be honest, after what most vets consider to be a good food when they had an hour long class on canine nutrition, how long of class did they have on dog psychology?


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

I like Cesar Millan and agree with most of the things I have seen on his show. I trained in obedience for many years without treats. The dogs I trained then were dependable once they had it it was forever no treats just doing to please Now with all the new physiology and treat system you have to be a constant die hard to have a dependable dog.

If you want to see the Dog Whisperers methods in practice look a Carole's thread "Tell me what you think of these videos" http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=9192&highlight=video with Vinny and Hopey. Vinny is Cesar.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

> At worst, Mr.
> Millan's techniques and misinformation have contributed to increased aggression
> and anxiety or resulted in physical injury to the pet and/or pet owner. As
> practicing veterinarians, we all unfortunately have seen many cases of the latter.


I would actually like to see documented proof of dogs that were on his show that either were physically injured or become aggressive. Frankly I don't really see him using fear and intimidation and I watch his show frequently. Most of the time he's correcting the owners and not the dogs.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

DanielBMe said:


> I would actually like to see documented proof of dogs that were on his show that either were physically injured or become aggressive. Frankly I don't really see him using fear and intimidation and I watch his show frequently. Most of the time he's correcting the owners and not the dogs.


Here is yet another article by Jean Donaldson re Cesar . I have personally asked her about the effect of Cesar on dog training. She said that when he first came on the air that they had an increased number of incidents coming into the San Francisco SPCA from people trying to adopt his methods. When trained dog experts view his videos ,it is plain to see the stress in the dogs. That is the whole problem like Jean says . The average person does not know how to read dog body language. Here is the article. 
http://www.urbandawgs.com/divided_profession.html


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

davetgabby said:


> I have personally asked her about the effect of Cesar on dog training. She said that when he first came on the air that they had an increased number of incidents coming into the San Francisco SPCA from people trying to adopt his methods.


How do they know they were practicing Cesear Milan methods on their dogs? I agree the average person doesnt read body language but prong collars and people using them incorrectly happened a long time before Cesar ever came on the air.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

because these people tell her and all these vets that they were trying to do something they learned on the dog whisperer when they bring their dog in. His methods are not recommended by most knowledgable trainers , especially not for the average dog owner. Yes choke chains and prong collars were not invented by Cesar but they are ever more popular because of him. His methods were used commonly twenty years ago , but we have since learned better and more humane methods to teach our dogs. From Jean Donaldson:

"Practices such as physically confronting aggressive dogs and using of choke collars for fearful dogs are outrageous by even the most diluted dog training standards. A profession that has been making steady gains in its professionalism, technical sophistication and humane standards has been greatly set back. I have long been deeply troubled by the popularity of Mr. Millan as so many will emulate him. To co-opt a word like ‘whispering’ for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable.” 

—Jean Donaldson, Director, SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers, San Francisco. 
... Author of "Culture Clash" and "Dogs are From Neptune".


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

You take in a pack of over 50 unwanted and badly treated dogs and have them live well together and then bash him
Do I agree with everything? No, especially the way he promotes himself. Have I seen great results from some of what he does? Yes.
There is a warning on all of his shows that says not to try this yourself so what makes people think that they can go get an abused dog and all of a sudden have 30 years of experience? What does Ceaser have to do with bad choices people make when they've been warned?


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Jan I think Cesar has a lot to do with it . He is giving them incorrect methods for "rehabilitating" dogs. Here is an article explaining why this show is dangerous to the public . National Geoghraphic was warned before it first aired and ever since. But the almighty dollar wins over. 
From Andrew Luescher, DVM, Veterinary Behaviorist 
Animal Behavior Clinic 
Purdue University

I reviewed the four preview-videotapes kindly submitted to me by National Geographic. I very much appreciate having gotten the opportunity to see these tapes before the program goes on the air. I will be happy to review any programs that deal with domestic animal behavior and training. I believe this is a responsibility of our profession.

I have been involved in continuing education for dog trainers for over 10 years, first through the How Dogs Learn" program at the University of Guelph (Ontario Veterinary College) and then through the DOGS! Course at Purdue University. I therefore know very well where dog training stands today, and I must tell you that Millan's techniques are outdated and unacceptable not only to the veterinary community, but also to dog trainers. The first question regarding the above mentioned tapes I have is this: The show repeatedly cautions the viewers not to attempt these techniques at home. What then is the purpose of this show? I think we have to be realistic: people will try these techniques at home, much to the detriment of their pets.

Millan's techniques are almost exclusively based on two techniques: Flooding and positive punishment. In flooding, an animal is exposed to a fear (or aggression) evoking stimulus and prevented from leaving the situation, until it stops reacting. To take a human example: arachnophobia would be treated by locking a person into a closet, releasing hundreds of spiders into that closet, and keeping the door shut until the person stops reacting. The person might be cured by that, but also might be severely disturbed and would have gone through an excessive amount of stress. Flooding has therefore always been considered a risky and cruel method of treatment.

Positive punishment refers to applying an aversive stimulus or correction as a consequence of a behavior. There are many concerns about punishment aside from its unpleasantness. Punishment is entirely inappropriate for most types of aggression and for any behavior that involves anxiety. Punishment can suppress most behavior but does not resolve the underlying problem, i.e., the fear or anxiety. Even in cases where correctly applied punishment might be considered appropriate, many conditions have to be met that most dog owners can't meet: The punishment has to be applied every time the behavior is displayed, within ½ second of the behavior, and at the correct intensity.

Most of the theoretical explanations that Millan gives regarding causes of the behavior problems are wrong. Not one of these dogs had any issue with dominance. Not one of these dogs wanted to control their owners. What he was right about was that calmness and consistency are extremely important, but they don't make the presented methods appropriate or justifiable.

The last episode (compulsive disorder) is particularly unsettling because compulsive disorder is related to an imbalance in neurotransmitter levels or receptors, and is therefore unequivocally a medical condition. Would it be appropriate to treat obsessive compulsive disorder in people with punishment? Or have a layperson go around treating such patients?

My colleagues and I and innumerable leaders in the dog training community have worked now for decades to eliminate such cruel, ineffective (in terms of true cure) and inappropriate techniques.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

davetgabby said:


> The show repeatedly cautions the viewers not to attempt these techniques at home. What then is the purpose of this show? I think we have to be realistic: people will try these techniques at home, much to the detriment of their pets.My colleagues and I and innumerable leaders in the dog training community have worked now for decades to eliminate such cruel, ineffective (in terms of true cure) and inappropriate techniques.


What he shows is that dogs can be rehabilitated and not put down or that they can overcome issues they have. Should there be a warning on that? Of course. Is he responsible if people pay attention to part of his show and ignore what they want to? No. That would be like someone watching a cooking show and then sticking their hand on a hot stove. Do you blame the show?
You have your ways of training, I have mine. I think some of what you say is wrong and it's pretty rare that I get on here to teach people how to train because I do it for work and this isn't work. Frankly others are here more often and normally give the same advice I would before I even see the thread. 
I don't agree with the way he promotes himself and I think I posted a couple of years ago that I got an email from his company saying that for X amount of dollars (big dollars) that I could get a certificate saying that I use Ceasar's methods when I've never met the guy or been trained by him however as far as I know they stopped that.
I've seen him do some great things and I've seen him do some things that there's no way in heck I'd have the nerve to try. If he saves dogs, good for him.
It never fails. If someone is successful, there's someone there to bash them. Do they talk about all sides of what Ceaser does? No. Gee, wonder why?


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

All that these people and organizations are saying is that his methods are wrong his philosophy is wrong and that he is giving poor examples to people on how to work with dogs. This is nothing to do with his personal success. His heart is in the right place and he has done a lot of good things. Just imagine how popular he would be if he was admired by these same professionals and organizations. I can honestly say that I do not know of one well known and respected professional that endorses his methods. That should tell you something. They are not attacking him , just his methods . You are right ,everyone can make up their own minds. I am just giving you the information that is out there and everyone can decide for themselves.


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Most of the dogs Cesar Millan helps would never meet your ACVB, AVSAB, SVBT members. In many of the shows the vet and other trainers have given up on the situation. 99.9% of the time it is the owner that is the problem not the dog. Cesar Millan does not call himself a dog trainer. What he does do is to show people that dogs by nature are not couch potato. I have never seen a show that he did not stress exercise for the dogs. 
Most of the people he visits do not treat their dogs like dogs and that is what they are.

My daughter who has a PhD working with Applied Behavior (in children) has said that many of her colleagues think Victoria Stilwell with Its Me or The Dog show uses method most people can do.


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## Scooter's Family (May 23, 2008)

We watch and enjoy Victoria Stillwell's show. We've also watched Cesar Milan and enjoyed his show. These people are professionals, as far as we know from how their shows are promoted, but I wouldn't just immediately follow either of them without researching things a bit more. Will everyone do that? Probably not. But it seems to be like that with everything anymore, everyone wants a quick fix for whatever isn't going right but doesn't want to work at it.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

SMARTY said:


> Most of the dogs Cesar Millan helps would never meet your ACVB, AVSAB, SVBT members. In many of the shows the vet and other trainers have given up on the situation. 99.9% of the time it is the owner that is the problem not the dog. Cesar Millan does not call himself a dog trainer. What he does do is to show people that dogs by nature are not couch potato. I have never seen a show that he did not stress exercise for the dogs.
> Most of the people he visits do not treat their dogs like dogs and that is what they are.
> 
> My daughter who has a PhD working with Applied Behavior (in children) has said that many of her colleagues think Victoria Stilwell with Its Me or The Dog show uses method most people can do.


yes you are right he has saved dogs from being euthanized. Think how many more he could save if people were given the right information about rehabilitation. People are taking his examples as gospel and practicing his methods at home. This is what professionals hear and see directly or indirectly. And you are right in what your daughter says . Victoria Stillwell is a huge improvement from Cesar. She is learning that in childhood education that dominance punishment and fear are not the methods of choice when training or educating children. My daughter is an Early Childhood Educator and what she has been taught is far different than the methodology that was prevalent twenty years ago. Thats because modern sciience has studied learning theory extensively in recent years and has determined that there are far better methods for learning than dominance punishment and fear. Dog training has followed suit . And it is discouraging that Cesar's outdated methods are still being considered. You are right again about Cesar. Exercise is important , no one is arguing that. And yes people are responsible for most of our dog problems. And yes we should not treat them like children in every way . But they learn in many of the same ways that children learn. They learn from positive reinforcement much better than aversives and what operant conditioning calls positive punishment.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Scooter's Family said:


> We watch and enjoy Victoria Stillwell's show. We've also watched Cesar Milan and enjoyed his show. These people are professionals, as far as we know from how their shows are promoted, but I wouldn't just immediately follow either of them without researching things a bit more. Will everyone do that? Probably not. But it seems to be like that with everything anymore, everyone wants a quick fix for whatever isn't going right but doesn't want to work at it.


Exactly Anne , people want quick fixes and that's what television distorts. When you put time restaints on training or solving problems you risk doing things too fast . It takes time to resolve some of these issues permanently .


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## sweater32 (Dec 12, 2008)

I was not going to comment on this subject but it irked me. Sometimes, I don't know when to be quiet & I will surely angry some with my thoughts but here I go.

For every letter written against Cesar, there are just as many, in fact more supporting him. We could all sit here and point out the pro's and con's of each and every teaching technique but, what do we do in reality . . . we take pieces from here and pieces from there and apply them to OUR OWN dogs and judge what works and what doesn't. Dogs are individuals the same as humans. Do we raise our children the same? Some parents practice the reward program while others teach the consequences of actions. Why? Because what works for some does not work for others. What would make anyone think that animals are any different? Apparently, you have not watched his shows or read his books because the ones I have seen showed no cruelty. And, you are not only judging Cesar Millan, you are judging me because I have used some of his methods and they have worked. Do I agree on everything he does? No. Do I sometimes use the rewarding program? Yes. Is there any philosophy ever agreed on 100 percent? No.

First, I would like to state I love my dogs, anyone who knows me will testify to it, and my bank account will most certainly prove it. I am appalled against cruelty to animals and I will do my part to stop it. In addition, I will defend what I believe in, the same as you. So who is Caesar and what do you see on his show; Dog Whisperer? First, Caesar is a person who loves dogs and he does not claim to "train" dogs in the sense of teaching them commands like "sit, stay, come, heel." Instead he rehabilitates unbalanced dogs and helps to "re-train" their owners. He opened a psychology-training center in Los Angeles for behavioral issues with dogs. So what is his show about and what do you see on it? Well, if you are interested in puppy training or teaching your friendly, sweet dog to do tricks such as; give me your paw, roll over, etc. You will not find it on Dog Whisperer. Instead, you will see dogs that have unacceptable behavior such as viciousness, destroyers, severe insecurity, or any kind of out of control behavior. You will witness pet owners who cannot take their dog's behavior anymore and this is their last resource. You surely do not see Lassie or Benji from down the street.

You reference Caesar to be cruel to animals and his teachings are unacceptable to you and others. Why? Some of the methods he uses are blocking the dog with your legs to teach them boundaries. To walk them twice a day for 30 minutes so you form a bond. When you do walk, walk with confidence, shoulders back, chest forward and head up&#8230;. And trust me this one works. Oh yea, he uses the sound "Tsst" constantly in training to get the dogs attention. The list goes on and not any of it is cruel. I have never seen an episode when a choke collar was used and I watched many of them. I suggest that you really watch "Dog Whisperer" with an open mind. To realize the dogs on that show are so out of control that most people would euthanize but, Cesar shows the owners there is hope. Would I use all of his methods? No; but. I don't have these kind of dogs.

Did you know Cesar's privately own dogs, I think there are 10 now are rescued dogs that had severe out of control behaviors and nobody else wanted them? The following is what Cesar has done for dogs and the awards that he has received. They are many.

*AWARDS*

In 2005, the Humane Society of the United States Genesis Award Committee presented Millan with a Special Commendation for his work in rehabilitating animals.

In 2006 and 2007, Millan's TV Show _Dog Whisperer with Cesar Millan_ on the National Geographic Channel was nominated for an Emmy for Outstanding Reality Program.
In 2006, Millan and his wife Ilusion were awarded honorary membership in the International Association of Canine Professionals (IACP).

In 2007, Millan was awarded the Michael Landon Award for Inspiration to Youth Through Television.

In 2008, Millan was recognized as a "Treasure of Los Angeles."

In 2008, Dog Whisperer with Cesar Millan won the award for TV Best Variety or Reality Show at the 23rd Annual Imagen Awards

*HIS CONTRIBUTIONS *

In December 2006, Millan and his wife announced the plan for a non-profit foundation. "We want to focus on making it accessible to the public. We hope to create awareness of dog issues and help rescue groups attain their goals and fill their needs. We already have an initial start-up project in the works for incorporating pet awareness, safety and care into children's elementary education."

Millan has also been noted for his association with other social projects, such as the program for at-risk teens K-9 Connection and Pups on Parole, a program for inmates

Millan is also associated with the Pets911 project,which works to "effect social change in this country by providing a free public service that will one day ensure an environment where all animals are valued companions and have lifetime, loving homes." His 2006 seminar tour gave part of the proceeds to the rescue groups that hosted the events.

On Valentine's Day of 2007, Cesar and Ilusion officially launched the Cesar and Ilusion Millan Foundation, "a national, non-profit foundation designed to aid and support the rescue, rehabilitation and placement of abused and abandoned dogs." Initial funding for the non-profit is being provided by the Millans themselves.

During a 2007 seminar, Cesar donated a treadmill to a member of the audience who could not walk her dog because she suffers from fibromyalgia and could not afford to buy the treadmill herself.

The Cesar and Ilusion Millan Foundation donated $10,000 to L.A. Animal Services' new East Valley Animal Care Center. Cesar and Ilusion, along with pit bull Daddy, presented the check to Councilman Tony Cardenas.

The Cesar and Ilusion Millan Foundation created CesarMillanKids.com, "a safe and easily navigable place for kids to experience the internet and learn about their canine companions, with special emphasis placed on learning to safely interact with dogs and provide what they need to live a happy and balanced life."

The Cesar and Ilusion Millan Foundation awards grants to rescue groups and shelters throughout the United States to fund programming in canine rehabilitation, spay and neuter, and humane education for children.

A portion of the profits from Cesar's new PETCO line will go to his non-profit organization, the Cesar and Ilusion Millan Foundation.

Following Hurricane Ike and Gustav in 2008, the Cesar and Ilusion Millan Foundation donated $5,000 each to the Galveston Island Humane Society, the Houston Humane Society, and Hope for Animals to help them care for the animals displaced by the hurricanes and to aid in the recovery effort.

Since 2007, the Cesar and Ilusion Millan Foundation has supported over 60 shelters and rescues across the country. The Foundation has also provided over 90 organizations with more than $75,000 in Cesar's Mastering Leadership DVDs for education of staff, volunteers, new caretakers, and potential adopters. The Foundation also donates both raffle and silent auction items, to help raise funds for organizations at their special events. These items include autographed Cesar Millan books, DVDs, apparel, and posters. To date, they have provided over $30,000 in goods, helping raise even more for the organizations that benefit from them.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

davetgabby said:


> Exactly Anne , people want quick fixes and that's what television distorts. .


Isn't that what you promote by putting free ads on here for whoever that person is that supposedly knows all about pet nutrition that people could find free on the internet or through advice here? You see, you have an agenda just as Milan does, however he's out there raising money, a lot of it, to save dogs. Are you?


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

like I said he has some good points . I am not arguing that.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

JASHavanese said:


> Isn't that what you promote by putting free ads on here for whoever that person is that supposedly knows all about pet nutrition that people could find free on the internet or through advice here? You see, you have an agenda just as Milan does, however he's out there raising money, a lot of it, to save dogs. Are you?


my only agenda is to give people information and let them make their own decisions. If you don't agree that's fine.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Thank Colleen. I agree 100 percent with your post. I can say,I am a fan of Cesar and watch his shows each week and have seen most all of his shows several times over. I use his techniques,not only with my dogs,but with the dogs at the vet's office when I am working.Without these techniques and the self confidence I muster up from Cesar's shows I couldn't even do this job. I come in contact with many many different breeds(not havs at all) but mostly big farm dogs and dogs that unfortunately have little owner directed training. I could only hope that the owners would actually watch Cesar and apply his principals to their own dogs......my what a difference that would make.

On a side note--I wonder if the people Dave Gabby quoted are out to self promote? If their ideas and techniques are so wonderful why are they not out showing regular everyday people what to do?How to do it etc.? Instead from the posts Dave Gabby quoted they are promoting more vet care? Who's padding their own pockets here? It seems easy to set back and judge when your ash is behind a desk cri-tic-ing someone else.....but Cesar is out helping everyday people. It isn't even a close call for me.

There are dogs who are abused every single day and we have a bunch of people who are supposed to care about animals doing what? Spewing a bunch of garbage instead of actually educating. I think they need to focus on their own actions instead.


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## Nanny (May 18, 2009)

I have watched Cesar's shows and I usualy come to the conclusion most of the owner's have no business owning a dog in the first place..they (the owner's) are the problem..esp. the celeberties..who have someone else take care of their dogs for them..Then boohoo because they have not bonded with them..


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Nanny said:


> I have watched Cesar's shows and I usualy come to the conclusion most of the owner's have no business owning a dog in the first place..they (the owner's) are the problem..esp. the celeberties..who have someone else take care of their dogs for them..Then boohoo because they have not bonded with them..


I totally agree:yo: I think regardless of what tool, what method they use ,etc. I think that same conclusion is there- they haven't been good dog owners, things have gone on far too long. I hardly ever watch the show as my dogs are no where near those issues. But I have read the books and it helped me. While I have never needed methods for my Neezers, I have a very dominant high energy maltese and I did do some stupid things with her. Definitely affection over anything else. His book helped me put into prospect what she needed.

For a lot of the dogs, I am not sure how you would go in and only be positive the entire time. One in particular was the ACD that he had to use the tennis racquet just to get near as it had such a strong guarding instinct, it would attack when people pulled up. While it wasn't positive for the dog- something needed to be done.

Is there a positive only methods trainer that has videos that deals with dogs with similar issues up for free with videos for people? I think if they truly want to give the general public an alternative, this would be the way to go.


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## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

I just have to put my 2 cents in here.

I have owned and trained dogs for 30 years (dating myself here) I was rescuing and rehabilitating dog before is was the "In" thing to do. I have to say that NO ONE METHOD works for every dog. I personally had two German Shepherds that would have been a danger to society if they were in the hands of an inexperience owner. They questioned my Alpha role and tried to challenge me. If I didn't know how to handle them by recognizing what they were doing and firmly correct their behavior before it escalated they would have been very different dogs. But once they knew I was Alpha they respected that and they were two of the gentlest and kindest dogs I have had.

I have watched Cesars shows and I may not agree with everything he does, but he is dealing with the worse cases. It is the "gentle" methods that often get the inexperienced people in trouble.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Not in response to any single reply here, but when you talk about Havanese specifically, I do admit that I cringe when most inexperienced people say they watch Cesar Milan and plan to use his techniques, because I don't think they are correlating the warning given nor recognizing _why _he is using them.

When a *Havanese puppy *leaves my home, I would much prefer that they have studied Jean Donaldson, Dr. Ian Dunbar, or even Victoria Stillwell (if you feel you need to follow a television example).


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Havtahava said:


> Not in response to any single reply here, but when you talk about Havanese specifically, I do admit that I cringe when most inexperienced people say they watch Cesar Milan and plan to use his techniques, because I don't think they are correlating the warning given nor recognizing _why _he is using them.
> 
> When a *Havanese puppy *leaves my home, I would much prefer that they have studied Jean Donaldson, Dr. Ian Dunbar, or even Victoria Stillwell (if you feel you need to follow a television example).


Right on Kimberly, and I would go one step further. All dogs are better taught or "rehabilitated" with predominately Positive reinforcement ways. The dogs on his show are no different than any dogs that come into our trainers care . They do not just feed treats like people think, to deal with severe cases of aggression or whatever. They can spend days and weeks dealing with extreme cases . These extreme "red zone" dogs are not helped in one day or as TV tends to portray 3 hours. Most good trainers like the ones you mentioned have many tools in their tool kit. Like it was mentioned every dog is different and not every method works for every dog. When a true positive trainer works with a dog though they do not have to rely on coercion fear ,strong handed or aversive type methods. Learning should not be unpleasant. And when you look closely a the dogs on the Dog Whisperer they are quite often showing signs of fear or showing signs of appeasal ,calming signals or learned helplessness. Here is more on that from 4Paws University .... DO YOU THINK THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO TRAIN A DOG?

Not at all. However, what few people realize is that many of the top positive trainers (including "clicker trainers") started as traditional trainers 20-30 years ago and switched to reward-based methods after realizing the benefits in training for obedience, competition and behavior modification. So not only are they aware that there is more than one way, they have extensive experience using a variety of methods, including the compulsive methods used on the show. They also have extensive experience with the backlash that can occur after using such methods. On the other hand, there are few trainers who still use traditional methods today who crossed over from reward-based methods.

Yes, there is more than one way to train a dog. I think what owners should ask themselves is why choose to start with a method that could stress or hurt the dog without trying less aversive methods first


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## tuggersmom (Oct 16, 2008)

Julie said:


> Cesar Milan does not practice dog training but rather dog physcology. I happen to believe in his techniques of dog physcology.
> 
> Sounds like a bunch of "hokey" to me...but people can form their own opinions. I just find it amazing how people like to throw a bunch of crap and see if any of it sticks,especially when that person has been successful. Sad that the world is like that...


I agree. I have worked with German Shepherds for a long time and worked as an assistant training dogs in obedience. there is a real hole in the dog training system that Ceaser has filled. I have seen many obedience titled dogs(CGC, CD up to Utility) that still growl at their owners, owners kids, when asked to get off the couch etc. As well I seen many obedience titled dogs that can do a sit/stay beside any breed of dog in the ring and attack that same dog out on the street (in fact I have owned one). So far, Ceaser is the only trainer that I have seen address the reality of living with a dog as a day by day companion in your house and in your neighborhood. I wish I had of known about him when I was dealing with my German Shepherd who hated other dogs. We tried many, many trainers and the whole gammet of training styles, but we ended up keeping our multiple obedience titled dog in our backyard for most of her life because we couldn't get over her issues.

Havanese as a breed are a very soft dog and I would caution anyone from extrapolating things that work with their Havanese to more powerful and high drive dogs.


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## Annie Clark (Nov 6, 2008)

This has been an interesting thread. I have been reading a lot about dog training since I got Nala. I did like how Ceasar wrote about the importance of walking your dog regularly and to have the combination of excercise, discipline and affection. I could have easily over-loved little Nala (maybe I do!). I found Ian Dunbar's "The Well Adjusted Dog" to be the most helpful for Nala's issues. It gave very speceific techniques and excercises for how to have guests come over and how to gently get her used to being around other dogs. She was so shy that I felt like some of Cesear's techniques were irrelevant. She certainly didn't want to go out the door first, she didn't pull ahead on a leash, she would put the brakes on and be scared to walk down a street, etc.

She has changed so much that several people have asked where I "sent" Nala that she got so much better! 

Thanks for the info and opinions. I learn a lot on this forum.
Latest research with kids says that you should have 5 positive statements to every 1 negative. And kids who have difficulites, learning issues may need 15 positives to every 1 negative statements! I think it's a good thing to try with kids, people and dogs!

Annie


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

Havtahava said:


> Not in response to any single reply here, but when you talk about Havanese specifically, I do admit that I cringe when most inexperienced people say they watch Cesar Milan and plan to use his techniques, because I don't think they are correlating the warning given nor recognizing _why _he is using them.
> 
> When a *Havanese puppy *leaves my home, I would much prefer that they have studied Jean Donaldson, Dr. Ian Dunbar, or even Victoria Stillwell (if you feel you need to follow a television example).


I am not talking about havanese in particular in my posts---though Quincy knows I am the boss as it should be. I do not come into contact with any havanese at work....but when you run into german shephards,pit bulls,irish springers,cattle dogs,labs,schnauzers,irish setters,jack russells,bichon,poodles,german shorthairs etc. they can be intimidating. Ever have to go up and loop a barking,growling aggressive lab?How about a pit? How about a husky? I am just saying--without Cesar's techniques,I know for an absolute fact,I could not do my job.I had a 160 pound dog one night that I kid you not--I had to call for help. It scared the living crap out of me and it's head was high enough it could of bit my chest and neck region without even jumping up. I wish these pet owners would have their dogs spayed or neutered and spend time with their dog in some fashion in some training method at all. I don't care who they pick....

This isn't directed at you Kimberly-just addressing the havanese part.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

davetgabby said:


> Yes, there is more than one way to train a dog. I think what owners should ask themselves is why choose to start with a method that could stress or hurt the dog without trying less aversive methods first


Who said the dog owners don't try other things first? That is an interesting little paragraph because I bet in almost 80-90% of Cesar's shows the dog owner always says they called in a trainer that couldn't do anything. They tried different training techniques etc. In fact one show about a boxer pops into my mind right off the bat--they were told to put the dog down.

There have been many--as most owners have actually tried different trainers/techniques and they state that on the show. Have you actually watched the show? Seriously?


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Julie said:


> Who said the dog owners don't try other things first? That is an interesting little paragraph because I bet in almost 80-90% of Cesar's shows the dog owner always says they called in a trainer that couldn't do anything. They tried different training techniques etc. In fact one show about a boxer pops into my mind right off the bat--they were told to put the dog down.
> 
> There have been many--as most owners have actually tried different trainers/techniques and they state that on the show. Have you actually watched the show? Seriously?


Julie I agree everything you are saying.........The show with the Boxer did make me cry and that is not easy with a TV show. I have seen too many Boxers that just do not get enough exercise and with their agile, friendly, guard dog personality trainers tagged then as a vicious or even retarded. I worked with several of these dogs only to find a good game of fetch and real exercise did wonders for their personalities.

Times are not getting better for the dogs&#8230;&#8230; In our busy society, homes with no or small yard, no structured exercise our dogs are the big losers. They are becoming destructive, neurotic, fat couch potatoes. Most people do not think of dog ownership as a daily job, but it is and this is what I think Cesar Millan's show gets across if you are really paying attention. I do believe in the power of the pack, dogs are not solitary creatures by nature.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

davetgabby said:


> because these people tell her and all these vets that they were trying to do something they learned on the dog whisperer when they bring their dog in. His methods are not recommended by most knowledgable trainers , especially not for the average dog owner. Yes choke chains and prong collars were not invented by Cesar but they are ever more popular because of him. His methods were used commonly twenty years ago , but we have since learned better and more humane methods to teach our dogs. From Jean Donaldson:
> 
> "Practices such as physically confronting aggressive dogs and using of choke collars for fearful dogs are outrageous by even the most diluted dog training standards. A profession that has been making steady gains in its professionalism, technical sophistication and humane standards has been greatly set back. I have long been deeply troubled by the popularity of Mr. Millan as so many will emulate him. To co-opt a word like 'whispering' for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable."
> 
> ...


THis is just getting so ridiculous! That's like saying I took my dog to a trainer, then tried to apply his techniques incorrectly, then blaming the trainer or better yet, my doctor prescribing medicine to take once a day and I take it twice a day and get sick. Should I blame my doctor for prescribing the pills in the first place?

Millions of Americans and Canadians get into auto accidents every year, becaue half of them can't drive and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a car, should we all stop driving entirely? Let's face it, there is a large population of idiots in this world, hence why we have instructions on Irons that say "do not use in bathtub" lol

Some people find Cesar's techniques very useful and some don't and some shouldn't even try.

That's my last comment on this.


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang (May 21, 2007)

I just wanted to add a bit of perspective here for all the TV viewing fans of Cesar Milan. That one hour show you watch, where he 'solves' the dog's problem and transforms it into a rehabilitated creature? Yeah, that show took HOURS to film. And yes, he has been bitten several times using his own methods.

He chased that dog, or ran it, or crowded it, or pestered it, until it was a) exhausted, b) stressed to the point of almost shutting down or c) subdued through persistent dominant behavior on Cesar's part. 

Now, you want to know what happened the next day? After the dog had a nice night's sleep? It went back to being the same dog. If ANY changes took hold, it was because the OWNER mimicked Cesar's behavior enough to keep the dog from returning to its usual self.

As we all know, it's up to the OWNER to truly rehabilitate their dog. Does anyone remember the two min pins he worked with? They had some sort of aggression issue. Well, the follow-up to that story is that one of them was put down after its 'rehabilitation' due to ongoing aggression issues.

You CANNOT rehabilitate a dog in one day! So those 'magical' stories are just that - stories. Edited for the viewing public - that's us.

Just keep that in mind when you watch those shows.

Now I'm not saying he's not an effective solution for some dogs. His mantra of "exercise, discipline and affection" is pretty sound, provided your idea of discipline is appropriate for your individual dog and the situation.

I just really want to reiterate that what you see on TV has been edited to promote the show and its star. 

That said, we had a pack of as many as 23 dogs here when we were doing rescue and all of them were "throwaways". Several were labeled 'dog-aggressive' and yet we managed to have everyone get along fine by enforcing a few rules and not letting the trouble makers get away with anything. And this was years before Cesar Milan made the scene! All it takes is some common sense and diligence. I don't understand how our society became so handicapped when it comes to relating to dogs and how their minds work and what they need for basic well being.


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

I don’t think that anyone on this Forum thought for one minute that Cesar Millan created major changes in the dogs in one hour. In every show I have seen he is showing the owners how to deal with the issues. Sure he is not successful all the time, no one is. Do you stick around for the final minutes when the dog owners come back and talk about the work in progress, regressing back, going back to square one? 

The same type of end of show scenes are on the Stillwell show. Some they win some they loose, it is up to the owners to create change in these dogs with the tools given not Cesar or Victoria.


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## Chere (May 22, 2009)

Very interesting thread. DH and I watch Cesar quite a bit and have found some of the methods helpful. The best one for us has been the "tsssh" to distract the dog from doing unwanted behaviors. I find the sound gentle but enough of a change from just my voice that the dogs stop and look at me. That interrupts the behavior. Our dogs were terrified of us and everything in our house so we simply used a lot of patience with them and didn't try to change behaviors quickly. We thought it more important that they get to know us and we would sit on the floor and allow them to approach us. When we could handle them just a bit they went on the bed with us and that is still the place in the house most comfortable for them. The foster father slept with them and I think they began to see a bed and a prone human as non-threatening. Now we use "Tsssh", especially around barking at guests; it works well for us.

I don't consider that sound discipline as much as it is distraction. Treats have helped us also, especially in encouraging the dogs to approach us. Now they willingly come to us. We are still dealing with Jesse's charging behaviors toward certain women and it is much better. Again we use the sound method. We also leash him as he is very leash submissive and less likely to charge when he has his leash on.

I admire anyone who tries to improve the lives of dogs who otherwise might be given up to a shelter or abused by a frustrated owner. I have no doubt some of the dogs on the show might have ended up in that situation. 

I will say that I am not a fan of intense "flooding" but a gradual introduction to scary things can benefit a frightened dog. This, for me, is best done once I have won the dog's trust, at least, partially. Then the dog seems to realize that I am not going to hurt him. But I don't find that Cesar does a lot of intensive flooding, seems to me that it was more obvious in the earlier shows.

I'm not committed to any one way of training, I am committed to having well trained dogs (not just mine but all dogs) by whatever method that works for the owner and the dog. Way too many dogs out there are not trained at all and they can be a danger to others as well as themselves.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

The Fussy Puppy Gang said:


> I just wanted to add a bit of perspective here for all the TV viewing fans of Cesar Milan. That one hour show you watch, where he 'solves' the dog's problem and transforms it into a rehabilitated creature? Yeah, that show took HOURS to film. And yes, he has been bitten several times using his own methods.
> 
> *Cesar has been bitten trying to help the dogs--I have seen this on his shows. Better him,then the children next door. If it wasn't a problem dog he wouldn't of been called.*
> He chased that dog, or ran it, or crowded it, or pestered it, until it was a) exhausted, b) stressed to the point of almost shutting down or c) subdued through persistent dominant behavior on Cesar's part.
> ...


*
I think our society is handicapped by it's desire to treat and baby a dog as if it was a child. Over treat,over love,but never over train or over exercise...dogs need to be dogs...not babies.*
*
My words are in bold.*


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Julie said:


> On a side note--I wonder if the people Dave Gabby quoted are out to self promote? If their ideas and techniques are so wonderful why are they not out showing regular everyday people what to do?How to do it etc.? Instead from the posts Dave Gabby quoted they are promoting more vet care? Who's padding their own pockets here? It seems easy to set back and judge when your ash is behind a desk cri-tic-ing someone else.....but Cesar is out helping everyday people. It isn't even a close call for me.
> 
> .


I don't think he notices how much the people on this forum do for dogs.....free of charge. I doubt you'd find him helping with the HRI quilt or offering to puppysit if a member needs it so he doesn't realize the audience he's talking to. I asked how much he's donated and got no response.
Back to Ceasar, I watched one show where the dog had no self confidence walking down the street and held it's tail down. Ceasar put a leash on the tail and the neck and held the tail up as they walked and walked and walked. Darned if it didn't work and the dog *happily* walked around with it's tail up. I never would have thought to do that!


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

I always like to read what Dave Gabby recommends and I'm thankful for his advice.

I am reading books by the "positive" dog trainers, Jean Donaldson and Ian Dunbar etc. 
I also watch Cesar and Victoria.

Never had time to do this when I had kids at home and/or was working.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Dave is very helpful and often redirects people who want help to articles or directly to experts that can help them. As far as I know, that's free of charge and of no benefit to him. It's just plain, nice help - not opinion. 

Jan, for the record, I've not done anything for the HRI quilt nor have I puppysat for anyone but my own dogs. I think that was a rude correlation and a low blow. Nobody was making it personal.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

JASHavanese said:


> I don't think he notices how much the people on this forum do for dogs.....free of charge. I doubt you'd find him helping with the HRI quilt or offering to puppysit if a member needs it so he doesn't realize the audience he's talking to. I asked how much he's donated and got no response.
> Back to Ceasar, I watched one show where the dog had no self confidence walking down the street and held it's tail down. Ceasar put a leash on the tail and the neck and held the tail up as they walked and walked and walked. Darned if it didn't work and the dog *happily* walked around with it's tail up. I never would have thought to do that!


Hi Jan . Sorry I missed your question " I asked him how much he's donated and got no response. " All I want to say Jan is that I posted this article ,knowing that it would draw some criticism. I realize that millions of people love Cesar and I thought he was pretty good too before I started studying dogs and dog training. And yes now I have changed my opinion about his ways. I tend to agree with these organizations when they warn about his methods. I do not think they have an agenda. The American Humane Association is yet another organization who has spoken out. And their only agenda is to promote safety for animals and people who own them. Anyway ,like I said earlier , my only agenda is to provide people with information from what or who I think is a reliable source. I try to get people to read from these sources because they are far more accurate and educated than I am. And actually I do try to help out too. I did receive an award from International Positive Dog Training Association last year for Human Touch Award. I donated t shirts to raise money for our Dogs IN Need Fund. I think it raised about $600 , and it will go to help out rescue a dog that the owner cannot afford to save. And I am just finishing the same t-shirt project this month. So I am not as terrible as you think LOL. On the t shirts it says Dogs Just Want To Have Fun. I borrowed the slogan from Pat Miller with permission from her. In summation , I hope I didn't offend anyone with this post. I simply wanted to point out what is out there. I respect everyones right to disagree.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

davetgabby said:


> Hi Jan . Sorry I missed your question " I asked him how much he's donated and got no response. " All I want to say Jan is that I posted this article ,knowing that it would draw some criticism. I realize that millions of people love Cesar and I thought he was pretty good too before I started studying dogs and dog training. And yes now I have changed my opinion about his ways. I tend to agree with these organizations when they warn about his methods. I do not think they have an agenda. The American Humane Association is yet another organization who has spoken out. And their only agenda is to promote safety for animals and people who own them. Anyway ,like I said earlier , my only agenda is to provide people with information from what or who I think is a reliable source. I try to get people to read from these sources because they are far more accurate and educated than I am. And actually I do try to help out too. I did receive an award from International Positive Dog Training Association last year for Human Touch Award. I donated t shirts to raise money for our Dogs IN Need Fund. I think it raised about $600 , and it will go to help out rescue a dog that the owner cannot afford to save. And I am just finishing the same t-shirt project this month. So I am not as terrible as you think LOL. On the t shirts it says Dogs Just Want To Have Fun. I borrowed the slogan from Pat Miller with permission from her. In summation , I hope I didn't offend anyone with this post. I simply wanted to point out what is out there. I respect everyones right to disagree.


I'm proud of you Dave. Sorry, I was really abrupt last night and thought I had calmed down enough to be on here but that wasn't the case. We went out to dinner and a cop was shot near where we were at and we were watching the news to see if he made it and he didn't  Another officer shot for no reason but at least his partner got one of the men and I think they have the others in jail.


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## JASHavanese (Apr 24, 2007)

Havtahava said:


> Dave is very helpful and often redirects people who want help to articles or directly to experts that can help them. As far as I know, that's free of charge and of no benefit to him. It's just plain, nice help - not opinion.
> 
> Jan, for the record, I've not done anything for the HRI quilt nor have I puppysat for anyone but my own dogs. I think that was a rude correlation and a low blow. Nobody was making it personal.


You missed the first line of what I said. You're giving up a lot of your personal time planning a national and that's admirable.
And you're right, I was too abrupt and should have not been on the pc after all that happened last night


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

no problem Jan, that's very understandable. We all lose it once in awhile. Especially when we are passionate about something.


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