# Shots/Vaccinations



## LindsC (May 28, 2012)

What is the protocol here? There is too much information out there. My pup had his first round prior to me getting him, so wondering what is the next step?


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

I would take my pup along with his record that you got from the breeder and leave the shots up to the Vet. Contrary to what others think, I think that the Vet is the expert. Every dog I have ever had has had all it vacs including the kennel cough and I have never had a thing go wrong. Rosie did have a lump where the shot was given, but called the Vet and they said it was normal and it did go away.


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## Tuss (Apr 22, 2012)

Agree with above! Vaccines do have some risk, but the alternative is far far worse. Eg Parvovirus is horrible and the vaccine is very effective and the disease is rarely seen. Some vaccines don't need to be given every year (eg Rabies) and some vets still give it more often than needed (some states require this but laws are changing). Talk to your vet and make an informed decision.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I have to disagree with you on this Lucile. A LOT of vets are not even up to date on the latest research. And if they are they don't care about it. I just sent six articles to my daughter to forward to her vet because she said he wasn't aware of it. Jean Dodds protocol is being adopted by nearly every dog trainer I know. http://www.weim.net/emberweims/Vaccine.html


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## Becky Chittenden (Feb 4, 2009)

Here, we give 2nd shots 4 or 5 weeks after the 1st ( only distemper/parvo and never other additives like lepto or coronna). 4 or 5 weeks later the 3rd round. Another 4 or 5 rabies. A year after the 3rd round of d/p, we give another and titer after. Fortunately, our state has fianlly accepted the 3 year rabies, but I'll admit, even when they didn't, I fudged a bit and hoped the dog catcher didn't come to our door (never happened).


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> I have to disagree with you on this Lucile. A LOT of vets are not even up to date on the latest research. And if they are they don't care about it. I just sent six articles to my daughter to forward to her vet because she said he wasn't aware of it. Jean Dodds protocol is being adopted by nearly every dog trainer I know. http://www.weim.net/emberweims/Vaccine.html


I agree with Dave completely. The more I read, the more I know the more I realize that dogs and cats are SERIOUSLY over-vaccinated. I follow Jean Dodd's vaccine protocol, and so do most of the serious "dog people" I know, no matter what breed they have.


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## LindsC (May 28, 2012)

Yes, that chart is what made me ask. So, is the primary difference the no bordetella? Does it matter if I change it up from what he was given during the first round? 

I obviously didn't have him for the 1st round, but it says he got Distemper, Hepatitis, Parainfluenza, Parvo, Bordetella.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

LindsC said:


> Yes, that chart is what made me ask. So, is the primary difference the no bordetella? Does it matter if I change it up from what he was given during the first round?
> 
> I obviously didn't have him for the 1st round, but it says he got Distemper, Hepatitis, Parainfluenza, Parvo, Bordetella.


Talk to your vet, if this is what you want , print it out and ask for it. I would skip the Bordetlla, as the article mentions. YOu're the boss. If your not satisfied that your vet is helping you with this , find another vet. JMO


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

That chart is pretty much what my vet gives except he recommended Lepto and I agreed because Rosie drinks out of the saucers under my plants and anywhere else she thinks I don't want her to. Last week a **** got on my upper deck and pooped all over. Seems he could push the door open but couldn't pull it back open. And I feel by the kennel cough the same as the flu shot. Maybe it doesn't cover all versions of it, but does cover some. Rosie got a serious case of kennel cough when she was about a year old and it was not funny. Also I have a problem of "trainers" being more of an animal expert that the Vet. I think it is sorta like going to the nurse practioner instead of the doctor or a mid-wife to deliver a baby. Works most of the time except when an emergency coms along that they don't know how to deal with. A lot of parents are foregoing vacs for their children for some reason. Now we have whooping cough and measles again. We were not allowed in the newest babies hospital room until we (grandparents) got the whooping cough vac again. As a Vet I respect Dr. Dodds protocol, but again it is not so different from my Vet except for the Lepto. But I would not quote a trainer about anything but training. Somehow I knew you would disagree with me. lol


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## marlowe'sgirl (Jun 17, 2010)

That chart is pretty much what my vet recommends. I have to do bordetella for the doggie daycare/boarding. I was happy that my vet will give me our county's annual rabies license but only vaccinates every 3 years.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Luciledodd said:


> That chart is pretty much what my vet gives except he recommended Lepto and I agreed because Rosie drinks out of the saucers under my plants and anywhere else she thinks I don't want her to. Last week a **** got on my upper deck and pooped all over. Seems he could push the door open but couldn't pull it back open. And I feel by the kennel cough the same as the flu shot. Maybe it doesn't cover all versions of it, but does cover some. Rosie got a serious case of kennel cough when she was about a year old and it was not funny. Also I have a problem of "trainers" being more of an animal expert that the Vet. I think it is sorta like going to the nurse practioner instead of the doctor or a mid-wife to deliver a baby. Works most of the time except when an emergency coms along that they don't know how to deal with. A lot of parents are foregoing vacs for their children for some reason. Now we have whooping cough and measles again. We were not allowed in the newest babies hospital room until we (grandparents) got the whooping cough vac again. As a Vet I respect Dr. Dodds protocol, but again it is not so different from my Vet except for the Lepto. But I would not quote a trainer about anything but training. Somehow I knew you would disagree with me. lol


Lucile, I never said trainers know more than vets. I'm just saying the vast majority of trainers are up to date on what's going on. They have no hidden agenda like a lot of vets do. The vets that are aware of the latest studies still find it difficult to accept because it quite often cuts into their cash cow. Some of them know **** well that rabies can be given once every three years but still push the yearly. Don't tell me this doesn't go on , because the three vets that I have do exactly this bull****. I hear these stories all the time. Just this week my daughter had to inform her vet of this research. Her vet was either living under a rock or chooses not to participate in a reduced salary. Don't give me this bull.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

The American Animal Hospital Association (AAHA) recently issued its 2011 Canine Vaccination Guidelines. The 2003 report, revised in 2006 and 2007, caused quite a stir. Many veterinarians and pet parents didn’t trust the findings –and still don’t – even though the report was backed by scientific studies and written by 14 well-respected experts. Change can be scary.

The report’s recommendation to eliminate or limit many unnecessary and/or dangerous vaccines, and to give the important “core vaccines” no more often than every three years (NOT annually!), was and is unpalatable to many practices. It could represent a huge drop in income.

Though veterinary organizations and every North American vet school changed their vaccination protocols to accommodate the report’s findings, most clinics continue to over-vaccinate. Pet guardians still overpay for shots their pets don’t need and too many pets (and pocketbooks) suffer from the subsequent vaccine reactions"

I won't publish what some of the experts say. But much along these lines. This is common knowledge to just about anyone that is paying attention. You'd think every vet would be aware of what's going on. Some just don't want to.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

“Profits are what vaccine critics believe is at the root of the profession’s resistance to update its protocols. Without the lure of vaccines, clients might be less inclined to make yearly veterinary visits. Vaccines add up to 14 percent of the average practice’s income, AAHA reports, and veterinarians stand to lose big. I suspect some are ignoring my work,” says Schultz, who claims some distemper vaccines last as long as 15 years. “Tying vaccinations into the annual visit became prominent in the 1980s and a way of practicing in the 1990s. Now veterinarians don’t want to give it up.”

The report of the American Animal Hospital Association Canine Vaccine Taskforce in JAAHA (39 March/April 2003)3 includes the following information for vets: ‘Misunderstanding, misinformation and the conservative nature of our profession have largely slowed adoption of protocols advocating decreased frequency of vaccination’; ‘Immunological memory provides durations of immunity for core infectious diseases that far exceed the traditional recommendations for annual vaccination.’

‘This is supported by a growing body of veterinary information as well-developed epidemiological vigilance in human medicine that indicates immunity induced by vaccination is extremely long lasting and, in most cases, lifelong.’

Both the AAHA and the AVMA must do more to “step up to the plate” says noted immunologist, Dr. Richard Ford. But the reality is the vets do not have to listen to the AAHA or the AVMA and it appears the state veterinary medical boards are not interested in enforcing vaccine schedules, opting to leave it up to the individual vet.

Dr. Bob Rogers hired a Chicago based law firm and initiated a class action suit for pet owners who were not given informed consent and full disclosure prior to vaccination administration. His article entitled “The Courage to Embrace the Truth”, states “While attending conferences like WSVMA and NAVMC I have asked over 400 DVMs from various parts of the country if they attended the seminars on New Vaccination Protocols. I was told by all but one, “I don’t care what the data says, I am not changing.” One DVM here on VIN even said “I am not changing until the AVMA makes me change.”


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Luciledodd said:


> That chart is pretty much what my vet gives except he recommended Lepto and I agreed because Rosie drinks out of the saucers under my plants and anywhere else she thinks I don't want her to. Last week a **** got on my upper deck and pooped all over. Seems he could push the door open but couldn't pull it back open. And I feel by the kennel cough the same as the flu shot. Maybe it doesn't cover all versions of it, but does cover some. Rosie got a serious case of kennel cough when she was about a year old and it was not funny. Also I have a problem of "trainers" being more of an animal expert that the Vet. I think it is sorta like going to the nurse practioner instead of the doctor or a mid-wife to deliver a baby. Works most of the time except when an emergency coms along that they don't know how to deal with. A lot of parents are foregoing vacs for their children for some reason. Now we have whooping cough and measles again. We were not allowed in the newest babies hospital room until we (grandparents) got the whooping cough vac again. As a Vet I respect Dr. Dodds protocol, but again it is not so different from my Vet except for the Lepto. But I would not quote a trainer about anything but training. Somehow I knew you would disagree with me. lol


First of all, Lucile, Dr. Dodds specifically says that the decision for vaccines like Lepto have to be made with your local vet, based on the danger of exposure in your specific area for your particular dog. So she doesn't disagree with your vet. It sounds like you and your vet, together, have made the right decision for Rosie, based on where you live.

Second, there is a BIG difference between refusing ALL vaccines (IMO, a VERY bad idea!) and wanting to avoid OVER vaccination. We do not vaccinate children on a yearly basis for anything but Flu (because the stains of Flu virus change rapidly). Our kids have a series of childhood vaccinations, and then intermittent boosters, based on the known longevity of the vaccines. (for instance, I think you need a Tetanus booster every 10 years)

There is NO, (ZERO) evidence that dogs need annual boosters of any vaccine.(except Bordatella, which really only covers for about 6 months) we are jut lining the drug manufacturer's pockets, and exposing our dogs to needless immune challenges by vaccinating so often. Most vets in our area will vaccinate annually unless the owners bring up concerns. If they do, they will admit that they really don't need them that often, and suggest every 3 year boosters. From the discussions I have had with numerous VETS (NOT trainers, BTW) As well as the research papers I have read, there is strong evidence that dogs are well protected by core vaccines after the 1 year boosters for up to 7 years. They don't know that the vaccines wear off then, but that's as far as the research has gone at this time. So even vaccinating every 3 years is very conservative. The reason that they suggest this for most pet owners who want to spread things out some, is that if you are NOT going to vaccinate every 3-4 years, it is a good idea to draw titers, which are quite a bit more expensive.

And, of course, the other thing that people can do to reduce the chances of adverse reactions GREATLY is to make sure that all vaccines are given at least 2-4 weeks apart. The more vaccines you challenge the body with at once, the more likely it is to react badly.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Wow, did I jump in or not. I still say that she should take her puppy and the papers from her breeder to her Vet and then let that expert tell her what to do. Of course I don't expect her to go to some jack-leg Vet, but one she knows and trusts or that comes highly recommended. Now I believe in choices and second opinions. If I had listened to the local Dr who said that I did not need surgery, I would have died within 6 months. As I stated Dr Dodds protocol is not much different from my vet. But you Dave are generalizing again about all Vets.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Luciledodd said:


> Wow, did I jump in or not. I still say that she should take her puppy and the papers from her breeder to her Vet and then let that expert tell her what to do. Of course I don't expect her to go to some jack-leg Vet, but one she knows and trusts or that comes highly recommended. Now I believe in choices and second opinions. If I had listened to the local Dr who said that I did not need surgery, I would have died within 6 months. As I stated Dr Dodds protocol is not much different from my vet. But you Dave are generalizing again about all Vets.


Not my intention. to generalize. Just want to get the FACTS out.


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## Tuss (Apr 22, 2012)

Seems there are some sketchy vets out there. I'm glad I have a good one. She tells me what she does with her own dog. She also lives 3 doors down from me, I have her home and cell numbers and we sometimes walk our dogs together and occasionally we have wine nights when she needs out of her house and away from her new baby. I think i'm very lucky! The clinic she works at has a vaccination schedule very similar to the one posted by Dr. Dodds, so I think they are up to date.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tuss said:


> Seems there are some sketchy vets out there. I'm glad I have a good one. She tells me what she does with her own dog. She also lives 3 doors down from me, I have her home and cell numbers and we sometimes walk our dogs together and occasionally we have wine nights when she needs out of her house and away from her new baby. I think i'm very lucky! The clinic she works at has a vaccination schedule very similar to the one posted by Dr. Dodds, so I think they are up to date.


Yeah, there are some vets out there who are in it for the money. But there are also MANY GOOD vets out there. It's a matter of "buyer beware". If you know ahead of time what is current "best practice", you can discuss it with your vet and make an informed decision. If you don't see eye to eye on a couple of things, but can work them out to your satisfaction, so much the better. If you are constantly butting heads, or feel like you are not being heard, remember that YOU are the consumer, and vote with your feet!

That's what I recently had to do for Kodi. We have used the same local vet for the last 15 years. And, interestingly, the vet was right in line with what I wanted to do as far as vaccinations were concerned. Unfortunately, he doesn't really understand the needs/issues with performance dogs. When Kodi got hurt earlier this year, he just couldn't hear what I was trying to tell him. I would have been fine with an "I don't know" and a referral to the big university hospital for follow-up. But when he insisted that my dog's pain was being caused by a parasite, I had to look elsewhere. When I talked to the other performance dog people I know, the same name came up over and over in terms of what vet to go to. Then I learned that Missy (Cash and Jasper's Mom) love her also, so I knew she understood Havanese issues as well. Even though she's further away, (half an hour rather than 2 minutes) I am very happy I switched him. You've got to have a vet that you feel comfortable with!


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## LindsC (May 28, 2012)

Thanks for all the responses.

The other big difference I see is that the chart contemplates 3 rounds of shots versus the 4 rounds that vets seem to push.

Has everyone been good with the 3 rounds versus 4?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Yes. My breeder suggested the Jean Dodds protocol, and that's what we've used from the beginning.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Becky Chittenden said:


> Here, we give 2nd shots 4 or 5 weeks after the 1st ( only distemper/parvo and never other additives like lepto or coronna). 4 or 5 weeks later the 3rd round. Another 4 or 5 rabies. A year after the 3rd round of d/p, we give another and titer after. Fortunately, our state has fianlly accepted the 3 year rabies, but I'll admit, even when they didn't, I fudged a bit and hoped the dog catcher didn't come to our door (never happened).


 That is pretty much what I should have done. I got confused about the titer I thought it was after all the puppy shots not after the first year shot. Just so no one gets confused about the rabies they have one about 6 mo and then a year then its a three year shot. Don't let your vet give the rabies at the same time as the boosters.To not give your puppy shots is a bigger risk than the shots. I just went to a very good vet who told me that dogs that don't have shots can develop natural immunity and they are out of the wood's entail about age three. To me thats a long time to be taking a gamble.


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## BennyBoy (Apr 25, 2012)

Luciledodd said:


> I would take my pup along with his record that you got from the breeder and leave the shots up to the Vet. Contrary to what others think, I think that the Vet is the expert. Every dog I have ever had has had all it vacs including the kennel cough and I have never had a thing go wrong. Rosie did have a lump where the shot was given, but called the Vet and they said it was normal and it did go away.


 Agreed!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

BennyBoy said:


> Agreed!


There are some wonderful vets around... I happen to be good, personal friends with several. But don't believe for a moment that all vets are created equal.

Also, remember something that one of my VET friends told me... Human Dr.'s only need to learn about ONE species, vets need to learn about MANY. Vets are generalists. Even the BEST vet may not be up to date on EVERYTHING, especially if you have a less common breed that happens to be vaccine sensitive (read H A V A N E S E). My old vet was very willing to tell me that Kodi was the first WELL BRED Havanese he had put his hands on in real life. Yes, there were other Havanese in his practice, but they were all puppy mill dogs, and their owners, not knowing enough to buy a well bred dog, certainly hadn't been educated by their breeders on the potential dangers of over-vaccination.

I hope that those of you who refuse to learn about and consider the health implications of over vaccination pay more attention to the your own health. There is a reason that when you are in the hospital, everyone who walks by your bed asks your name and what you are there for. They know how EASY it is to make a mistake, and are following correct protocol to avoid mistakes. As a patient OR as the guardian for our pets, we owe it to ourselves and our animals to make INFORMED decisions about health care.

Even the best vet is not God. In fact, a good vet will tell you that.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Last summer I worked at a friends nursery and there was a really nice young woman their. She said she was volunteering. I assumed she was a horticulture major or something. When I asked her she said no she was a veterinarian but hasn't been able to find a job. She had been offered jobs as a vet tech for $12.00 hr and had been looking for two years. They go to 6 years of school the economy has gotten so bad that young adult vets aren't getting jobs. The vets that are already in practice are seeing a big decline in customers. People cant afford to take their pets to the vet. I already stated that I had just recently seen a new progressive vet who learned in school that dogs are safe from most diseases by age three. He said I wouldn't need any more shots after that. Oregon must have the three year rabies protocol because that is offered here.Every vet I have seen in the last two years has stated that they still stick with the foods that have the most research. Those company's feed our Zoos. I'm not saying that I want to feed science diet . Dave would say they are paid to advertise those company's. Or maybe they offer scholarships to young students who otherwise cant afford to go to a 6 year collage. I think its good to educate pet parents about over vaccinating and from my last doctors visit the vet's are being educated. What I don't like hearing is they are into it for the money. I think most vets took their courier choice because they love animals. IMO


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

I just took the time to look up the continuing education requirements for Vets in TN. They must obtain 20 hours of lecture time per year. As a Professional Surveyor I have to take 16 hours per year and hate it. Mathmatics do not change, so I fuss a lot, but still to keep my license I have to take the courses. My vet practices on small animals only. Another one has associates and they do cattle and horses also. I know for a fact that neither of these vets are rich, wealthy, or in the so-called one percent. Now there are vets that I wouldn't take my dog to. Again one must educate themselves on the individual vet. My veet took on an associate about the time I got Rosie. I did not like her simply because she didn't seem to care about the animal. When it came time for Rosie to be spayed, I told Doc that he had to do it and not that woman. Obviously I was not the only one that didn't like her because she is gone.


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## Becky Chittenden (Feb 4, 2009)

Vet's, like people drs. differ. My regular vet I've been to since before he opened his practice. My original vet was his father, who was good and easy to deal with, but both a small and large animal vet. The son, Jim, is (now that he has his own practice and not with his dad (who died a couple years ago) only small. He hires a few new grads every year. If I have a real need I make an appointment with Jim, if I go for routine things I'll take anyone. Only twice over the years have I had an anyone and asked to confer with Jim.
I do go to a different vet for OFA hips and elbows because Jim didn't originally have the equipment to feel comfortable doing them (now does but why change a good thing) and to a practice that has repro specialists for progesterone testing who are competitively priced and you get the results the same day.


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## Jplatthy (Jan 16, 2011)

Well I am glad that I did my research and with Dave's help lol finally convinced my vet to do the blood draw for me for me to send the sample to the lab (this is where Dave came in lol). The lab charged $42 to do the test and the vet charged $20 for the blood draw and it was $7 postage so overall it was not that much higher than the shot would have been ....

I'm at my 3rd vet in Florence AL and ALL 3 told me that I needed to get an annual rabies vaccine and because people around here told me that was the law I didn't question it..it was only after I was reasearching rabies that I found an article in the paper from 2009 when AL was the LAST state to allow a 3 year rabies vaccine.....

My current vet's response to my concerns over vaccinating was that she vaccinates her dogs and it is perfectly safe....she has a yorkie and a lab......but in the end she agreed to do what I wanted so I am happy with that and I just got the tests emailed tonight from the lab and all 3 have very good titer levels...wooohooo......as my bf says...if they go from one year vaccines to 3 year vaccines they would need to treat 3x as many dogs to make up for it.......

Of course I've tried to talk to all the people I work with that own dogs and have even handed out the vaccine protocol and they act like I'm a nutcase lol.....

Anyways I just wanted to thank everyone on the forum for posting the latest information and helping to educate and thanks to Dave when I was about to give up in frustration!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jplatthy said:


> Well I am glad that I did my research and with Dave's help lol finally convinced my vet to do the blood draw for me for me to send the sample to the lab (this is where Dave came in lol). The lab charged $42 to do the test and the vet charged $20 for the blood draw and it was $7 postage so overall it was not that much higher than the shot would have been ....
> 
> I'm at my 3rd vet in Florence AL and ALL 3 told me that I needed to get an annual rabies vaccine and because people around here told me that was the law I didn't question it..it was only after I was reasearching rabies that I found an article in the paper from 2009 when AL was the LAST state to allow a 3 year rabies vaccine.....
> 
> ...


Good for you!!! You should pat yourself on the back for going the distance to get the care for your dogs you knew was right for them!


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