# Poddy Training Help/Advice Needed



## rvk5150 (Apr 30, 2011)

Hello All,

I posted this on the tail end of another older/longer thread with no replies; I figured I would in a new thread as we need advice/support on this:

So we are in a similar boat with Eleanor and I have to ask for advice.

This is her second day home...so far we have had two successful sessions and five bad ones. We have her in an ex-pen (we picked up a medium crate so she could turn around and she HATED it so it went back). In the pen is her bed that she LOVES; water bowl; food bowl; a few toys; and the "litter box."

Her breeder showed me she was trained on newspaper and the time I went to see her and then a few hours later when we went back to pick up up the minute she would get out of her pen (same size as the one we have) she would go right to the newspaper and do her business. The breeder would only say "good girl" but NOT give her a treat.

So the litter box is just the flat plastic and we have newspaper on top...she will go to it and again we have two good trips today of which she was rewarded with a jerky treat and praised...but we had four bad poddy trips and one bad #2 in the pen when we left for about three hours.

Going outside seems out of the question...again being how small she is (I was mistaken; she is about 4 to 4.5 lbs as we actually weighed her) she simply goes back to the door and whimpers to go back inside; she also starts shaking as if she is cold.

With respect to overnight she did not wake us up once and did not have any accidents last night....she is on the main floor while are up in our bedroom on the second floor. I woke up once about 2:30 AM and went to check on her...sleeping like a baby with the pen bone dry.

Thoughts? Did we make a mistake but not sticking to the smaller crate and giving her too much luxury with the pen? The nice thing is she LOVES it and her bed...goes in and out freely all day. 

Update to all this is Sunday (third day home) we went 9/10 on #1 but 0/3 on #2...she seems embarassed in that when she starts going around the house sniffing I would grab her and take her to the litter box saying "Yes Potty" over and over in a nice voice....still no #2. Then I would try to give her more time by following her around...no dice; this could go on for an hour or so and the minute I take my eyes off her for 1s she sneaks off to the corner and does her business on the floor.

After speaking to many ALL seem to state I need to put my foot down; use the crate/go outside. So we bought the extra small crate; moved her pillow/blanket inside of it; and placed it in the pen. She seemed okay and even started putting her toys and such inside and laying in it...then at night she fell asleep in my lap; we put her in and shut the door for the night...about two hours later a little crying so I came down; got her out; and took her outside...nothing. Put her back in and went back to sleep. About three hours later barking but again no dice on doing her business. Finally; an hour later I had to be up for work anyway...same..she is frantic and super excited to see me but no going #1 or #2. Now; she had stopped eating from about three hours before going to bed and had done both #1 and #2 so maybe she was running on empty...

Everyone says crate training and going outside are the norm; otherwise she will never get it. Are we doing the right thing? She went for my wife (only #1) before she left for the day and we have had her in the crate..I am taking a half day to get home and am afraid of what I going to walk into..probably a mess in her small crate! Others insist to stay the course and in a week or so she will get it.

What does everyone think?


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## JMGracie (Mar 30, 2011)

I'm definitely not an expert - potty training Gracie has been a mixture of successes and defeats. But I will offer what advice I can.

I would recommend sticking with the smaller crate. It will get better, and for now 2 hours may be about as long as she can hold it (depending on how much she's eaten/drank).

If she's going in her pen, that's not necessarily a bad thing - as long as she has some distance between where she sleeps and where she pees. But on the other hand, one of the main ideas behind crate training is to use instincts to help train dogs to hold it. So you're not really getting the benefit of crate training with that pen.

I wouldn't stress about it too much, though. Gracie has a pen she sleeps in during the day - when she was little she actually did pee in there a few times, but now she's 6 months old and treats it just like a crate (even though it's still a good bit bigger than her). She absolutely will not go in there. The same thing is true of our bed where she sleeps now. When she was little, I put her up on the bed just to see how she'd react, and the first couple of times she peed on it a little, so I didn't put her back for a long time. Now she sleeps there at night, and she holds it. If she really has to go, she'll come lick me, stand on me, even cry - but she won't relieve herself on the bed. She understands that this is where she sleeps.

The other thing I'd say is keep pushing her to go outside. She's not too young at all. If you want her to eventually go outside - start now. We brought Gracie home at the end of December (she was under 4 lbs then), and she managed to learn all winter.

Gracie went potty outside for the first time on our very long car ride home. She slept a good bit of the way, and towards the end she was whining a lot. We stopped in a parking lot, put her in the grass, and she just stood there shaking a little. Back in the car, drove some more, and she started really whining a lot - I was preparing for her to pee in my car. Well, we stopped again on some side road, got out, and put her on the pavement. She sort of stood there afraid and so we moved away from her, knowing she would follow. Then we walked in a slow circle (that's a natural movement to let them know it's time to go), and after doing that once or twice, she squatted and did her business. That may or may not have any relevance to you, but I like the story  I guess my point is that it helps for you to be a leader, however you can. If you put her outside, and wait patiently inside, she's probably going to just come right up to the door and cry to get in. Walk her in a circle. Try different things.

Another thing I would suggest is to carry some treats around in your pocket for when she does go outside. When she goes, immediately give it to her. Especially at that young age, a little bit of her favorite treat will go a lot further than just praise. We've actually recently had some issues with Gracie not telling us she wants to go out, instead just heading off to find a corner somewhere, so I went back to treating her when she goes outside and it has helped immensely.


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

It may take months for Havs to learn. Dexter was 6 months when he was reliable alone in the house. Jack is still not reliable....maybe 95% of the time, he is reliable. 

Start limiting the water at night by 7pm. Last trip outside between 10-11 pm. Just for information.... Just because pups hold their urine/stool during the night, does not mean they are able to hold it during the day. 

I remember setting my timer every 45 minutes to take Dexter out to potty during the day and watching him like a hawk! I did not crate Dexter, I wanted to let Dexter play or I wanted to hold him. 

I learned the signs of needing to potty for my boys...you have to watch their movements very carefully. 

Hang in there...it is frustrating at times. Stay calm and praise all good behavior. Do not show any frustration for any potty accidents unless you catch them in the act. 

Praise...praise...praise...



you find do not punish for accidents unless you catch them in the act.


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## lkwilson (Mar 6, 2011)

I love the idea of walking in a circle! I've been taking pee pads outside to get Coach to go, it's working... We've had three good pees. He won't go on a walk though, maybe the circling will help.

After a few nights of ignoring the whining in the crate during the night, he stopped. Now he just whines a bit in the morning when hears us waking up. It's kind of like letting your baby cry through the night. 3 nights and they're good. I know it's hard, but worth it.

I too take Coach out every hour, but I'm lucky I work from home. The weird thing is that I know he can hold it. We've gone on walks, stopped for lunch at our dog friendly cafe and he'll wait until we get back, race to the balcony and pee. (Another reason to try that circle thing) So the peeing in the house, which he still will do if I don't watch him makes me think he doesn't realize it's bad. I think he remembers the pee pads inside and thinks those spots are ok. Although he has gotten way better and if he does pee inside now it's right near the sliding door that he goes out of. 

Good luck,


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## rvk5150 (Apr 30, 2011)

The situation is getting worse. I got home from work; left early; and the crate was full of her #1 and #2. I cleaned everything up and she ate/drank some water...she had been alone for about 5 hours and gone right before my wife crated her.

After eating I took her outside three times....finally on the third she went #1. Then she came in..the family came home; we played; we had dinner while she was in her pen....after I took her out again and nothing. A little later took her out again and nothing; then I put her in the pen to go up and change....came down to a puddle in the pen; no warning/barking/whining.

She still has a #2 to go....right now she is sitting in her crate dejected as if she knows she did nothing wrong although I did not scold her or anything.


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## lkwilson (Mar 6, 2011)

She is pretty young to be left 5 hours during the day (at least I'm assuming she's young as you've only had her a couple of days) It's so hard when you know they're not trying to be bad, they just don't know yet what to do. 

I can't comment on her soiling her crate, but I've had lots of accidents in the house though (Well Coach, not me although I'm sure that day is coming)


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Only say a command once, then wait......for the wheels to turn without any other input. Never give a command "over and over". But that's not the important part for right now

Fold the xpen down where she only has room for the bed she likes and the pan with the paper in it. You might need to even use something to take up part of the room in one end when it's folded down to 2x4. It's possible to have too much freedom, even in an expen.


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## rvk5150 (Apr 30, 2011)

We are over having the xpen as an option now; she is being crated when not going for her poddy. We have moved the tray closer to the "out" door that has the bells by it.

She is going to be 4 months next week.

She seems to have okay holding ability; for the second straight night of crating she did not make a drop of anything....last night was even better than the first night; not a SINGLE cry or bark! So...she went 7 hours overnight the first night and 6.5 hours overnight the second night without relieving herself in the crate.

This morning after she woke I took her right outside...after 40 minutes she finally did #1...heavy, heavy praise and a special treat (not the same treat she is giving for other things).

Then inside to play and do other things...had a blast with my daughter etc however; in the middle of it all she started the obsessive sniffing around and circling around the house....we then went back outside...after 45m nothing so she is in the crate now as I am typing this from the other room. I will wait some time and try again.


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## inlovewithhav (Feb 18, 2011)

For Kipper the sniffing is the sign that he has to go and once you see it you only have a slight window to ask him "do you have to go potty?!" and then kind of runs with him to the door. Once we go outside I continue to tell him to go potty and will walk with him in the yard while he searches for his special spot. Now IF there are any distractions (i.e. my other dog outside, another dog barking, a child playing or a farm animal bellowing -we live in the country) he will forget what he is doing and I will redirect him to go potty. The accidents that he has had have been our fault not his becuase we have not been watching him enough. I will aske him every 30 mins to an hour if he has to go potty and take him outside-when I am home. I have to work during the day and no one is home so we leave him with his x-pen attached to his crate and a potty pad at the far side from his bed (which is in his crate). If I get home and he hasn't had an accident off his pad I give him a TON of praise and also take him outside for about 5-10 mins. Now here's the thing, if we are going potty we don't stay out but 10 mins. Anything longer then that and they just forget what they are out there for. We have special time outside playing that is not potty time too (that is when it's not raining). He is also about 4 months and I think is doing especially well considering his age and that he is unsupervised a lot of the day. Have you considered having someone come in during the day to take him out to potty?


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## rvk5150 (Apr 30, 2011)

inlovewithhav said:


> For Kipper the sniffing is the sign that he has to go and once you see it you only have a slight window to ask him "do you have to go potty?!" and then kind of runs with him to the door. Once we go outside I continue to tell him to go potty and will walk with him in the yard while he searches for his special spot. Now IF there are any distractions (i.e. my other dog outside, another dog barking, a child playing or a farm animal bellowing -we live in the country) he will forget what he is doing and I will redirect him to go potty. The accidents that he has had have been our fault not his becuase we have not been watching him enough. I will aske him every 30 mins to an hour if he has to go potty and take him outside-when I am home. I have to work during the day and no one is home so we leave him with his x-pen attached to his crate and a potty pad at the far side from his bed (which is in his crate). If I get home and he hasn't had an accident off his pad I give him a TON of praise and also take him outside for about 5-10 mins. Now here's the thing, if we are going potty we don't stay out but 10 mins. Anything longer then that and they just forget what they are out there for. We have special time outside playing that is not potty time too (that is when it's not raining). He is also about 4 months and I think is doing especially well considering his age and that he is unsupervised a lot of the day. Have you considered having someone come in during the day to take him out to potty?


Thanks for the post.

That is how we started...bed/create in the pen however; each day we came home everywhere BUT the pad was soiled with either #1 or #2 but of course nowhere near the bed or pad. We have considered making the pen smaller (it is 24x36 I believe) but what is the point of forcing her either in the bed or on the pad with nowhere else to go? So we are now crating her for the day.

I stayed home from work today...we are off to a good start. #1 in the morning on the pad in the basement (for now we are giving up outside...she has NEVER been outside prior to us bringing her home according to the breeder and it shows; she is distracted and barks at everything). Unfortunately shortly after she made a #2 on the floor...but since then we have had a successful #1 and #2 down on the pad so we are making progress I suppose. The issue is I cannot stay home everyday.

We do not have anyone nearby that can come let her out.


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## inlovewithhav (Feb 18, 2011)

ohhh wanted to say in my rambling post that Kipper just started "getting" it. He is just over 4 months old now (turned 16 weeks yesterday) and we had a lot of those accidents. Dave posted an article a few days ago from Ian Dunbar that I have been finding extremely useful… It is a long read BUT has a lot of very useful information in it. I am trying to figure out how to instil bite inhibition in him-am actually going to a trainer to help nip his nipping in the bud ound:
Dave I can't find the PDF post from a few days ago could you help?


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## rvk5150 (Apr 30, 2011)

Yes; if that article or PDF is available that would be great. 

I stayed home from the office yesterday and we went through a day of training, playing, etc...she did great with NO accidents. She was free to roam the house for 4-5 hours with me often on my laptop or work calls; I made sure to always keep an eye on her but she had freedom to roam.

Third straight night not a peep overnight or a drop of going; she got put in the crate about 9:45PM (after sleeping for awhile in my lap) and I came to let her out at 4:00 AM..so 6+ hours with no issue. I took her and she went #1; got the celebration and treat...life is good. She really understands the reward aspect of it so far and is doing well.

My wife put her bowl of food and water out; she ate and drank....then about 30m later she took her out but nothing. Waited another 30m and #1...5m later as she was ready to leave and JUST before she was going to crate her (she had been in the Pen) she made #2 on the floor.

Someone suggested a divider in her crate for today...she will be home about 7.5 hours when I arrive; I am not thinking this will be necessary because overnight she is great (no crying and no mess) but the normal M-F it is a lot at this stage to ask her to hold it this long; I think she will get there and that a divider may be more damaging from a mental standpoint.


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## JMGracie (Mar 30, 2011)

Sounds like you're having some successes! That's great 

Think of it as taking a little kid on a car trip. "Do you have to go potty before we leave?" "No, mommy" "Are you sure?" "I don't have to go!".... you leave, and 5 minutes down the road "Mommy I have to go potty! Now!"

Especially when your puppy is little, she may not know when she does and doesn't have to go ahead of time. And when she does, because she has a small bladder, there isn't much warning. It's your job to be vigilant (which it sounds like you are), and also to understand biology. When she drinks, eats, etc. she's going to need to go out very shortly after. If she hasn't gone out in a while (I've heard different things from different people, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, 45 minutes), she needs to go out. She may not do something every time, but when she finally decides to do something - you want it to be outside.

As far as the divider, you're right in that you don't want to leave her in a confined space like that for 7.5 hours. Because that will start to "break" her instincts, and force her to relieve herself where she sleeps, and cause you lots of trouble down the road. You may want to consider another option though - having someone available to take her out or something.

Think of it as a slider bar between "fully potty trained" and "goes wherever she wants whenever she wants". Every time you get her to go outside, you move a couple notches towards "fully potty trained". Every time she goes inside, she falls back a little towards "goes wherever". It's alright for her to have accidents... you just want her to have more successes than accidents.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

rvk5150 said:


> We are over having the xpen as an option now; she is being crated when not going for her poddy. We have moved the tray closer to the "out" door that has the bells by it.
> 
> She is going to be 4 months next week.
> 
> ...


 I feel for you 45 min is a long time to be trying to get a puppy to go. Both my Havanese would wake me up and I would take them out and only have to wait at the most 5min. The middle of the night cry was within a min. Our feeding time has been around 6:30 eve and about 7:30 morning when they were younger I also feed At noon. Both my two will go #1 and #2 first thing in the morning. And agian about 10:00 Am I could always tell because they run around funny .
Sometimes it helps to take them out for a real walk that will get them going or throw a ball in the house.


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## rvk5150 (Apr 30, 2011)

We are doing great...no accidents overnight and during the day while in crate since the first day (a week now)! We have #1 down pretty good but #2 is such a struggle. She now goes #1 pretty much on first or worst case second try either on the pad in the basement or outside...we are super happy with this amazing progress!

The #2 issue though is a big one...I think she really does not want to go in front of us. This morning took me leaving her on the leash and along in the basement for her to go; although she did go on the pad. I just feel bad because leaving her trapped (I have to hook the leash because she will just fly upstairs otherwise and we accomplish nothing).

Are they known to be like this? 

Also...the bell training is going nowhere..basically we have to read her signs (or the obvious situations like first thing in the morning or when we get home) to know when she wants to go. We ring the bells (with her paw) both before/when we are going and upon return when we have success including saying "Potty" a few times.

Thoughts? We went to first Vet visit a few days ago..says she is doing GREAT (gained 1 lbs 1 oz since we brought her home so she is 5.1 lbs now).


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## LeighaMason (Dec 16, 2010)

Sugarbaby is shy when she goes potty, she is better now but at first she had to be behind a bush, no cars driving by, no other dogs in sight, I couldn't be looking, etc. or she would just hold it until she could find a private place inside. I think you are onto something with the leash and pad downstairs. Plus I can almost always trace an accident to me not being patent enough when I take her outside, sometimes it takes 5-10 min for her to find the perfect spot to poop.


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