# Breeders exploiting buyers



## kashcheema (Apr 11, 2020)

Hi all,

What is your view on breeders taking advantage of buyers due to the pandemic by raising prices of their puppies to outrageous levels? I understand demand has gone up, but my wages haven’t! 

We will be looking for a havanese puppy when my kids are a little older but i am always on the lookout on pets4home (UK website) and the UK Kennel Club. The average price in the UK for a Kennel Club registered puppy from an assured breeder with all the documentation is approx. £1500. I have spoken to recognised breeders who have been selling at these prices pre and post pandemic and they are just as appalled by some of these so called breeders. I would like to expose on here who this lady is to make people aware so she doesn’t rip off any buyers. Can i mention who she is on her? I can link to her post on pets4home too as i suspect it is still active. 

Regards,

Kash


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

1500 pounds would be a bargain in the U.S. For the last couple of years a Havanese puppy from a reputable breeder has been costing about the equivalent of 2200 to 2700 pounds, and there is a waiting list for those, as much as a year or more.

Ricky's Popi


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## kashcheema (Apr 11, 2020)

£1500 is the normal price here and every reputable breeder sells at that price. This particular lady is selling at £3500 each! That's $4400! I have tried to complain about her to the U.K. kennel club and the local council and they do not seem to care. I messaged her and asked her about her ludicrous prices and she said it's because she has to pay tax 

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## kashcheema (Apr 11, 2020)

Sorry I don’t think my original post was clear. What I meant was that £1500 is an acceptable price! 


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## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

That is about what I paid for Denver (1500 british pounds is about $2500 CAD). Breeders here haven't upped their prices, they just closed their wait lists, though I know it is different in different places.
According to this thread, that's about in the ballpark what they cost in the US as well (1500 british pounds right now is about 1900 USD): https://www.havaneseforum.com/6-gen...-what-did-you-pay-your-purebred-havanese.html


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## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

I didn't see the other posts before mine - 3500 pounds??? That is definitely an inflated price.. WOW!!!!
Hopefully people don't get sucked into it..but I don't think there's a body that you can actually report her to (I don't think the UKC does anything like that anyways).


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## kashcheema (Apr 11, 2020)

Waiting lists are still open and although I’m not on any in the immediate future, I have put my name down for some who will be breeding in 2023 and these breeders have maintained they will keep the same prices (I put down a refundable deposit on 3 breeders). It’s those awful breeders who are exploiting the covid situation and taking advantage of new buyers who hadn’t done the same level of research as me. 


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## kashcheema (Apr 11, 2020)

The lady in question:
https://www.pets4homes.co.uk/classifieds/2748846-beautiful-kc-regd-havanese-puppies-ammanford.html

She stands to make about £16000 from selling these pups. Awful lady, makes my blood boil. Having spoken to two reputable breeders who I have put my name down for for 2023, they also dislike her.

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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Wulfin said:


> According to this thread, that's about in the ballpark what they cost in the US as well (1500 british pounds right now is about 1900 USD): https://www.havaneseforum.com/6-gen...-what-did-you-pay-your-purebred-havanese.html


 That's not exactly right. Most of the dogs on that list were purchased 5 to 15 years ago, so that skews the price lower for current selling price. For example, what I paid for Ricky 5.5 years ago would be about 50% higher in today's dollars.

My estimate for getting a Havanese from a reputable dealer today with proper health certification and some initial training is in the USD 2500 to 3000 range. Prices on the East Coast appear to be at the higher range while dogs on the West Coast appear to be at the lower range of $2500.

Ricky's Popi


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## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

There are over 60 responses on that poll. You can't tell me that almost all of those are from 5-15 years ago. There are a lot of new owners on the forums these days.
Also, I was looking at several breeders when I was looking to get Denver, and in the US states I was looking at most of the prices were around that $2000 mark with a few being higher.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

You know, no one MAKES anyone buy a dog at any price. Anyone has the choice to walk away.

If a breeder can’t sell her puppies for a price, she will lower the pirce. Look at the ridiculous pices people pay for Bernaschmoodles. (Made that up, but you know what I’m saying. People pay upwards of $5000 for some “designer mutts” There is a fool born every minute, and always someone willing to part that fool from their money.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

The doodles are shockingly expensive. Designer breeds go for upwards of 5000 dollars and they have no reason to sell those pups except for demand. I peruse puppies a lot, never intending to buy off something like that. But Maltipoos and Havapoos are often 3-5k, whereas HERE a very good show breeder sells Havanese for between 1500-2000, with girls often priced higher in that range (I have no idea why). And these breeders have wait lists, show health testing, show dogs, etc. Breeders here are pretty set in that 1500 range. I do not 100% believe that all reputable breeders charge 2500. I'm also in Idaho, probably a bit less demand, and vet costs and other expenses are also lower for breeders. I'm from California originally, and then Washington state, so I can say that cost of living is different. We CERTAINLY cannot speculate on the pricing of puppies in an entirely other country! It's the the backyard ones for like 800 dollars. You ask them if they health test and they have an excuse. They tend to want to send puppies home too early, another way to cut corners, and a red flag, 

And worse, are the puppy mills, who won't let you see their premises. Puppy mills, particularly online ones, or pet stores (the puppies come from puppy mills) often charge an exorbitant amount for purebred dogs. So, you cannot necessarily say that bad breeders are cheaper. My mother has spent insane amounts of money on her 5k pet store chihuahua (my mother has done everything for her- she is 18 now, after a ton of different surgeries as a young puppy). Her well-bred chihuahua costed a reasonable amount and has always been well. Has a better temperament from Bella, too.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Woods said:


> The doodles are shockingly expensive. Designer breeds go for upwards of 5000 dollars and they have no reason to sell those pups except for demand. I peruse puppies a lot, never intending to buy off something like that. But Maltipoos and Havapoos are often 3-5k, whereas HERE a very good show breeder sells Havanese for between 1500-2000, with girls often priced higher in that range (I have no idea why). And these breeders have wait lists, show health testing, show dogs, etc. Breeders here are pretty set in that 1500 range. I do not 100% believe that all reputable breeders charge 2500. I'm also in Idaho, probably a bit less demand, and vet costs and other expenses are also lower for breeders. I'm from California originally, and then Washington state, so I can say that cost of living is different. We CERTAINLY cannot speculate on the pricing of puppies in an entirely other country! It's the the backyard ones for like 800 dollars. You ask them if they health test and they have an excuse. They tend to want to send puppies home too early, another way to cut corners, and a red flag,
> 
> And worse, are the puppy mills, who won't let you see their premises. Puppy mills, particularly online ones, or pet stores (the puppies come from puppy mills) often charge an exorbitant amount for purebred dogs. So, you cannot necessarily say that bad breeders are cheaper. My mother has spent insane amounts of money on her 5k pet store chihuahua (my mother has done everything for her- she is 18 now, after a ton of different surgeries as a young puppy). Her well-bred chihuahua costed a reasonable amount and has always been well. Has a better temperament from Bella, too.


It is definitely true that Havanese from the middle of the country tend to be priced a little lower than either coast.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

kashcheema said:


> The lady in question:
> https://www.pets4homes.co.uk/classifieds/2748846-beautiful-kc-regd-havanese-puppies-ammanford.html
> 
> She stands to make about £16000 from selling these pups. Awful lady, makes my blood boil. Having spoken to two reputable breeders who I have put my name down for for 2023, they also dislike her.


The "full advert details" would be enough to make me look elsewhere. Thanks for sharing, and good luck in your search!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Some buyers have asked us if they can be put higher on the list if they pay more. Those don't even make it on the list. The demand is outrageous now. We get 3 to 6 inquiries every day. I guess we're foolish for not raising our price. If a breeder can get what they're asking, I don't see anywhere to put any blame.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Tom King said:


> I guess we're foolish for not raising our price. If a breeder can get what they're asking, I don't see anywhere to put any blame.


Tom thanks for your integrity. In today's world, that is a breath of fresh air.

Tom what would you say is the going rate for a well bred Havanese in your area? I'm not asking you what you charge, I'm asking what a general price range is that you are aware of.

Ricky's Popi


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## kashcheema (Apr 11, 2020)

Tom King said:


> Some buyers have asked us if they can be put higher on the list if they pay more. Those don't even make it on the list. The demand is outrageous now. We get 3 to 6 inquiries every day. I guess we're foolish for not raising our price. If a breeder can get what they're asking, I don't see anywhere to put any blame.


Thanks Tom. However supply and demand here isn't relative. There are still the same number of puppies available at a higher price from some breeders. A genuine truthful breeder will not increase their prices and I have found almost half a dozen who haven't and we are on THEIR lists only. A breeder who takes advantage of the pandemic for their own financial gain isn't considered ethical in my eyes. My wages haven't gone up so why should you increase the price of your product?

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## kashcheema (Apr 11, 2020)

And no you’re not foolish. You’re one of the few truthful ethical and genuine breeders out there and they are hard to come by so thank you for sticking to your morals. 


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Tom thanks for your integrity. In today's world, that is a breath of fresh air.
> 
> Tom what would you say is the going rate for a well bred Havanese in your area? I'm not asking you what you charge, I'm asking what a general price range is that you are aware of.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


I don't mind saying. Ours, and every breeders we are friends with get $2500, and have for some years. I've had a hard time getting Pam to raise prices over the years. We paid $1800 for Twinkle in 1997, and that was before anyone was doing health testing.

It's a full time job for Pam, and I end up losing a lot of time from paying work too, when looking after the puppies. Like the day that Pam had to go get Patrick, was not only her time, but I missed a whole day of work, which is not insignificant. If I don't work, I don't get paid.

For breeders like Pam, and her friends, it's a full time job-actually more than a regular full time job, and none of them make as much money as they could in almost any regular 40 hour week job.

People are getting a big favor by being able to get these puppies for $2500.


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## kashcheema (Apr 11, 2020)

Tom King said:


> I don't mind saying. Ours, and every breeders we are friends with get $2500, and have for some years. I've had a hard time getting Pam to raise prices over the years. We paid $1800 for Twinkle in 1997, and that was before anyone was doing health testing.
> 
> It's a full time job for Pam, and I end up losing a lot of time from paying work too, when looking after the puppies. Like the day that Pam had to go get Patrick, was not only her time, but I missed a whole day of work, which is not insignificant. If I don't work, I don't get paid.
> 
> ...


I think the time, effort and love that you and Pam dedicate to these wonderful pups, the price you charge is justified.

Maria Jones (breeder in question here) was actually selling her last litter at £1500 last year and as the pandemic came around has upped it by £2000. That is a SIGNIFICANT amount of money. Her breeder friends do not talk to her anymore as she is taking advantage of those that are unaware of the going rate. She is selling at almost $4400 when converted to US dollars. She stands to make a substantial profit.

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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

If people are paying the asking price, that makes them worth it. It will be interesting to see if that's where the prices stay later.

There are plenty of buyers available that any of these prices are insignificant to.


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## kashcheema (Apr 11, 2020)

I don’t agree Tom. If I’m selling you a car which through your research, you know is worth £5000 and everyone else is selling the same car at £5k. But I’m choosing to sell to you for £10k, won’t you feel hard done by? Just because people are willing to pay inflated prices doesn’t mean that reflects the true value of a product. Assured breeders which are KC registered in the U.K. are selling lovely pups at no more than £1500 with all the paperwork and vaccinations. Let’s call a spade a spade, £3500 is inflated beyond reason. I hope people don’t buy from her and do their research. 


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

kashcheema said:


> was actually selling her last litter at £1500 last year and as the pandemic came around has upped it by £2000. That is a SIGNIFICANT amount of money. Her breeder friends do not talk to her anymore as she is taking advantage of those that are unaware of the going rate. She is selling at almost $4400 when converted to US dollars. She stands to make a substantial profit.


Kash, I'm confused. The exchange rate on today's market for a British pound to U.S. dollar is 1.26. Converting 2000 pounds to dollars would be USD $2520 not $4400. Help me out here, what am I doing wrong?

Ricky's Popi


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## kashcheema (Apr 11, 2020)

She (Maria) is selling at £3500 which equates to ~$4400. 

Average and correct price is £1500 which is ~$1890. 


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

kashcheema said:


> She (Maria) is selling at £3500 which equates to ~$4400.
> 
> Average and correct price is £1500 which is ~$1890.


Got it, thanks, she increased her price by 2000 pounds.

Ricky's Popi


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tom King said:


> I don't mind saying. Ours, and every breeders we are friends with get $2500, and have for some years. I've had a hard time getting Pam to raise prices over the years. We paid $1800 for Twinkle in 1997, and that was before anyone was doing health testing.
> 
> It's a full time job for Pam, and I end up losing a lot of time from paying work too, when looking after the puppies. Like the day that Pam had to go get Patrick, was not only her time, but I missed a whole day of work, which is not insignificant. If I don't work, I don't get paid.
> 
> ...


I think that's what people don't understand when they think this is a lot to pay for a puppy.


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## kashcheema (Apr 11, 2020)

krandall said:


> I think that's what people don't understand when they think this is a lot to pay for a puppy.


$2500 US or CAD isn't a lot of money for a pup. However £2500 or even £3500 GBP what Maria is charging is so above the economies of scale it's unbelievable.

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## Vartina Ancrum (Oct 10, 2019)

It is really unfortunate that some people are so unethical and attempt to make a profit on our current Pandemic. I do agree with the amount of expense and time ethical breeders invest in their dogs, they don't make a profit. I still believe ethical breeders do breed dogs for the love of a specific breed not the love of money.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

I wonder if she raised prices to weed out "Covid" puppy buyers. It seems like that is a "thing". Everybody wants a puppy since they are home so much. I keep wondering what will happen to those puppies if the world returns to normal.
I know the cost of everything I buy/use has increased in the last few months alot. Covid surcharges at the dentist, the gym everywhere.


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## Vartina Ancrum (Oct 10, 2019)

That is true. More people are adopting pets during COVID-19. Yes, we are paying more for everything during the Pandemic. My car was damaged and the body repair shop charged my insurance company a COVID-19 cleaning surcharge. Someone hit the front end of my car, the repair shop didn't make any internal repairs.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Tere said:


> I know the cost of everything I buy/use has increased in the last few months alot. Covid surcharges at the dentist, the gym everywhere.


You are so right. The cost for grooming Ricky is going to TRIPLE at the end of July! We are looking for a new groomer.

Ricky's Popi


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## Vartina Ancrum (Oct 10, 2019)

Do they want to charge a Covid-19 surcharge to deep clean Ricky?:smile2: These charges are ridiculous. Tripling the grooming cost!


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

Two weeks ago, my a/c broke. 3 years ago, it was the same part $201. total. This year(same company, same part) $392. It lasted for 4 days!!! Replaced the entire system with a different company.
A month ago, my neighbor had their roof cleaned $275. They want $525. now for mine(200square feet more) so a tiny bit bigger roof.
My groomer raised her price $10. in January($40 to $50). I bet she does it again so she can make up for all the money lost during the shut down.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Vartina Ancrum said:


> Do they want to charge a Covid-19 surcharge to deep clean Ricky?:smile2: These charges are ridiculous. Tripling the grooming cost!





Tere said:


> My groomer raised her price $10. in January($40 to $50). I bet she does it again so she can make up for all the money lost during the shut down.


In the case of our particular groomer, I think she is trying to make up for lost revenue for the last 6 months. The problem is we paid her regularly for those 6 months and even increased the amount, voluntarily, by 50% to help her get by. No good deed ever goes unpunished! We will be switching groomers at the end of the month. She has lost our business.

Ricky's Popi


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

Ricky must be kept in pristine condition. Shadow only goes every 6 weeks. My other dogs went every 2 weeks! Same groomer for 20 years. I trust her skills but she can be tempermental and only works 3-4 days/week for pretty short hours. When she complained about losing alot of money during the shutdown, I said that perhaps she could do 5 days a week in order to catch up. It was NOT what she wanted to hear!
Triple, that is crazy.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Sorry to hear you lost your groomer, Popi ...


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

Geez my groomer is expensive. 85 bucks for a puppy cut, 65 for a regular trim/ bath etc. He’s a mobile groomer and comes to the house though. We do every 6 weeks.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

TRIPLE? Omg


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## kashcheema (Apr 11, 2020)

Melissa Woods said:


> Geez my groomer is expensive. 85 bucks for a puppy cut, 65 for a regular trim/ bath etc. He's a mobile groomer and comes to the house though. We do every 6 weeks.


You mention puppy cut? I presume a puppy cut retains all the puppy like features on an older hav? Oh how this conversation has gone in a different direction to what it started as!

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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

kashcheema said:


> You mention puppy cut? I presume a puppy cut retains all the puppy like features on an older hav? Oh how this conversation has gone in a different direction to what it started as!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Pretty much. It involves clipping the body and scissor trimming the legs vs a face trim, sanitary, paws etc. So it's more expensive. Basically, if he's in-between taking length off, it's 65. If he gets a shorter cut, 85. It's not 85 EVERY six weeks. There are short puppy cuts in the 1 inch range, and longer to about 3 inches. I like the happy medium of about 2 inches. My dog easily mats. He has this really fine undercoat.

Here are two different lengths. The longer one he actually was younger, about 10 months old. You can see that his chocolate markings have lightened. I prefer them to keep the bangs a bit scruffy/ not shaved around the eyes.


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## kashcheema (Apr 11, 2020)

Wow he looks older in the second picture where his coat is longer! How old is he in the first picture?


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

He's 18 months. That one is a current pic, from just a few days ago.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

To be fair he was almost full grown at 10-12 months. He's filled out a pound or two since then. But he was pretty much done growing.


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## stephsu (Apr 27, 2020)

Tere said:


> Two weeks ago, my a/c broke. 3 years ago, it was the same part $201. total. This year(same company, same part) $392. It lasted for 4 days!!! Replaced the entire system with a different company.
> A month ago, my neighbor had their roof cleaned $275. They want $525. now for mine(200square feet more) so a tiny bit bigger roof.
> My groomer raised her price $10. in January($40 to $50). I bet she does it again so she can make up for all the money lost during the shut down.


I am getting quotes for $125 and up for grooming!!! Wow, are things different in different places!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

stephsu said:


> I am getting quotes for $125 and up for grooming!!! Wow, are things different in different places!


I pay $60 for Pixel to get groomed. The charge is $50 and I tip her an extra $10 because she does a beautiful job!


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> I pay $60 for Pixel to get groomed. The charge is $50 and I tip her an extra $10 because she does a beautiful job!


Same for Shama in southern Minnesota. I tip 20% because I appreciate our groomer and also because I figure some people aren't tipping at all ...


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## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

We pay about $85 for a clip. $45 gets us a bath and blow dry. Lol.


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## HoneyBunny (May 11, 2010)

stephsu said:


> I am getting quotes for $125 and up for grooming!!! Wow, are things different in different places!


You aren't that far from me, Steph and I pay $50 for grooming + I give $10 for a tip. $125 is a LOT.. If you like - once you get your pup, we could arrange a play date followed by a spa day so you could get it done for half the price.


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## HoneyBunny (May 11, 2010)

There is a TON of price gauging by unethical breeders. My stepmother is trying to find a Frenchie and there are huge waitlists for good breeders and they are going for over 6k by unethical. While we were looking online for her, I came across a mini Bernedoodle going for.. wait for it.. $11,900. no that's not a typo - but she did come with 'white glove service delivery' I almost fell off my chair. I have the link if anyone is interested - it was from a puppy mill type situation.

So grateful for ethical, honest breeders who sincerely want to better the breed, especially Tom and Pam.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

stephsu said:


> I am getting quotes for $125 and up for grooming!!! Wow, are things different in different places!


That's what it is for grooming a small fluffy dog around here. When we got our first Havanese about 25 years ago I remember it being $60.00. It gets more expensive for dematting!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

It’s around $80 for grooming but I always add stuff on, I figure if I’m taking him to to be groomed I want everything so I don’t have to do anything for a few days, even if it’s extra. 

Price gouging continues to be a problem in my area. One thing I’ve noticed is on places like Amazon, the price appears reasonable if you don’t know the item is typically sold at most places under the listed price. I bought a bunch of bins to organize a closet way back in January and the same bins are now much more expensive everywhere, but when I bought them they were advertised as being below list price, so they don’t appear inflated. It’s the first time I’ve ever actually seen them sold at full price! I do think some of it is legitimate because the cost of the product has to increase due to the manufacturing process and shipping taking longer. I think the days of buying inexpensive, imported household goods are gone for a while. My husband joked I should be happy, I can go to the Container Store now that it’s open! But I always feel guilty when I leave, i hate how easy it is to spend so much on plastic. 

I don’t think price has anything to do with a quality puppy anymore. It a good breeder sells a puppy at a reasonable price, a backyard breeder in my area will cut corners and sell at the same price or no more then $100 or so less to maximize profit. However, I can see that people who don’t know what the typical price is and the process of waiting for a puppy could easily miss this red flag right now. I think now that it has been a few months, puppy mills and unethical breeders have now had time to gear up and take advantage of the increased interest in puppies. Hopefully we can keep reiterating as often as we can that it’s normal to wait for a puppy, and it’s important to research breeders, even for a pet puppy. If people do those things, they’ll start to come across reliable information about what to expect in price, etc.


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

You are spot on Ricky! We live in Washington State and got Jodie in North Carolina last year for $2500.00 Prices are a little lower here on the West coast but Southern Cal usually has East Coast prices. We flew to NC to meet Jodie and the breeders and then again to bring Jodie home. We have no regrets!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

The way it's done in the pandemic, for such long distances, is to charter a private jet (not kidding). Kind of makes the price of the puppy insignificant, I would think.

But, if you have your own amphibian airplane, you can land it on the lake here. If you come in your own private plane, you have to slum it, and use the local airports beater, loaner old Crown Vic to get here.


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## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

And if you’d like one of those planes, please let me know .. I may have a couple for sale >


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Heather's said:


> That's what it is for grooming a small fluffy dog around here. When we got our first Havanese about 25 years ago I remember it being $60.00. It gets more expensive for dematting!


It SHOULD be more for dematting, but you rates are still high enough that it would be a strong incentive to me to do it myself! LOL!


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

You do a wonderful job with grooming, I would never trust myself with scissors or clippers. We've had the same groomer for almost eight years. Scout and Truffles stand like statues for the groomer. Truffles pretty good at letting me brush and comb her, but Scout is not cooperative at all. He's really strong and will do everything possible to make it difficult for me to comb him. He's the one that has a tendency to mat. They only get groomed every 4-5 weeks. I would never take they to the places that possibly could be less. If I gave them a haircut it would take a year for them to recover.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Heather's said:


> You do a wonderful job with grooming, I would never trust myself with scissors or clippers. We've had the same groomer for almost eight years. Scout and Truffles stand like statues for the groomer. Truffles pretty good at letting me brush and comb her, but Scout is not cooperative at all. He's really strong and will do everything possible to make it difficult for me to comb him. He's the one that has a tendency to mat. They only get groomed every 4-5 weeks. I would never take they to the places that possibly could be less. If I gave them a haircut it would take a year for them to recover.


LOL! I don't think I do that good a job, but I'm getting better! And you'll note, I trim Kodi because he's patient with me. Trimming Pixel is like trimming a flying squirrel. I do wash and comb and do feet and nails on all three of them. THAT I feel competent to do.


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## stephsu (Apr 27, 2020)

HoneyBunny said:


> You aren't that far from me, Steph and I pay $50 for grooming + I give $10 for a tip. $125 is a LOT.. If you like - once you get your pup, we could arrange a play date followed by a spa day so you could get it done for half the price.


Really??? I have called maybe 7 or 8 places, mobile, local shops, and one woman who does it at your own home and each one said $125 if not more except one I now found that said $110 is the minimum. Does she get all of it? A bath, hair cut, nails, ears, etc?? I'd definitely go to NJ to get it done if it's that much cheaper. Thanks!!


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## stephsu (Apr 27, 2020)

Tom King said:


> The way it's done in the pandemic, for such long distances, is to charter a private jet (not kidding). Kind of makes the price of the puppy insignificant, I would think.
> 
> But, if you have your own amphibian airplane, you can land it on the lake here. If you come in your own private plane, you have to slum it, and use the local airports beater, loaner old Crown Vic to get here.


That's nuts!! We had planned to fly (commercial) to Raleigh and stay with my cousins for a few days before picking up our puppy from you guys back when I naively thought that this would be over with by now. Instead, we will drive to Richmond, VA due to the mandatory quarantine in NY if we go to NC. I can't imagine flying private to go get a puppy, or anywhere for that matter! Must be nice!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I wasn't joking about any of that.

There was also one chartered King Air (twin turboprop), since the trip was less than 600 miles.


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## Wulfin (May 3, 2019)

I will say, since getting into the industry (I’m an airplane broker), I am amazed at how many “regular normal” people have pilots licenses and airplanes. It boggles the mind. My dad had his, but he’s been in the business forever, so I never really gave it much thought until the last few years.


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## Puphavan (Sep 6, 2020)

kashcheema said:


> £1500 is the normal price here and every reputable breeder sells at that price. This particular lady is selling at £3500 each! That's $4400! I have tried to complain about her to the U.K. kennel club and the local council and they do not seem to care. I messaged her and asked her about her ludicrous prices and she said it's because she has to pay tax
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Mine will cost $2825(Canadian) which is about £1650 and that's low end here in Toronto,many other breeders charge much more.This breeder hasn't raised his price in years and the best part is his wife does grooming and they do boarding as well, so if I need to leave him for a week,let's say,my puppy will probably be playing with siblings and or parents..and they're only 15 min drive from my house.


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

GAK! The hubby is already working on me about getting another dog. I looked at a couple of Bernedoodle breeders.... OMG! Base price is $5000, then you add on extra for 'Pick of the Litter' options. You could pay up to $8k for a puppy.

10 years ago we paid $2000 for Jack. So I figure he was only $200 a year. Works for me. But the couple of breeders that I have bookmarked have closed their waiting lists. Now what do I do? The years of watching Tom King's Starborn puppy videos has corrupted me. I want one of those roly-poly puppies. LOL! 

Oh well, too soon to make any decision. I am still crying whenever I see Jack's empty spot on the carpet.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Thinking of you, Pam!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Speaking of closed lists, we have 60 people on our waiting list, before we just had to stop adding to it. The last 20, or so, we told them there was already a long list, but they wanted to be added anyway. 

It will be interesting to see how many have done something different by the time we have more puppies. It sometimes takes a lot of time, because Pam starts at the top of the list, and has to wait to hear from that family before notifying the next. I'm afraid it might really take a lot of time with a list this large. I think the last couple of litters, no one had dropped off the list, until right at the end, when it was about time for the puppies to start leaving, something came up for a family, and Pam had to scramble around to tell the next family on the list, and wait for their answer.

The list always changes, as people find puppies elsewhere, or have something come up, but it's never been anything like as long as it is now.


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## KristaS (Sep 26, 2020)

Funny we actually got Jojo by accident. This was her breeders first litter I called to get on their list had heard about them by word of mouth. When I called they said they had a female (Jojo) who had been reserved but the family had an emergency and couldn’t take her and would have to wait for their next litter. They didn’t plan another littler until early next year so didn’t have a list but asked if I would like to come see the puppy!! I’d gotten on a few lists but and had done a lot of research but didn’t think I’d get a puppy until early 2021 at least! I think Jojo is the kind of puppy that would be great for most anyone but was actually our perfect fit!!! I couldn’t believe it!! It was a two hour drive to go meet her and I couldn’t believe it when I was bringing her home! She wasn’t the color or size I was picturing in my head but she is the perfect puppy! I can’t believe how lucky we were!!


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## Vartina Ancrum (Oct 10, 2019)

The puppy you get never ends up being what is in your head but they are the one that ends up in your heart:smile2:. When I got on my breeder's waitlist last year I knew the personality I wanted and that was about it. I have an older dog so I just wanted a puppy that would fit within my family. When the litter was born, I just asked her to pick the best fit for me.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

I had six dogs growing up, but none were black and white, so I'd never imagined myself with a black and white dog!

Tom, thanks for all the insight into the world of breeding these sweet dogs.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

morriscsps said:


> GAK! The hubby is already working on me about getting another dog. I looked at a couple of Bernedoodle breeders.... OMG! Base price is $5000, then you add on extra for 'Pick of the Litter' options. You could pay up to $8k for a puppy.
> 
> 10 years ago we paid $2000 for Jack. So I figure he was only $200 a year. Works for me. But the couple of breeders that I have bookmarked have closed their waiting lists. Now what do I do? The years of watching Tom King's Starborn puppy videos has corrupted me. I want one of those roly-poly puppies. LOL!
> 
> Oh well, too soon to make any decision. I am still crying whenever I see Jack's empty spot on the carpet.


Well, you probably know that Berners have HORRIBLE health track records. You are lucky to get 8 years out of one. I doubt a Berner cross is much better (no matter what the crossbreed - breeders tell you  ) And to pay a premium for a mutt? I sure wouldn't. The going price for Havanese right now on the east coast (non-Covid price range, from good breeders) is $2500-3000. I don't think you'll find a well-bred one for $2000 anymore. HOWEVER, (and I can't guarantee that there are any still available) I DO know of a "surprise" litter here in MA from an excellent breeder if you want to PM me. I can put you in touch.


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

Yeah, we know about the Bernies. Our neighbors had one. He was the sweetest thing but he died at the age of 2.

I figured that the going price for Havs had gone up since 2010. Not surprised at all by the $2.5-3K range. The hubby and I are already talking about different breeds and what we want. A snugglebug seems to be at the top of the list.

60 PEOPLE on the wait list!!!! Wow. I knew it would be long but, wow... It will take years to fill that list.  It is called job security. LOL!


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

krandall said:


> HOWEVER, (and I can't guarantee that there are any still available) I DO know of a "surprise" litter here in MA from an excellent breeder if you want to PM me. I can put you in touch.


I sent you a PM. Maybe we can get on a shorter list than 60... :grin2:


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## Vartina Ancrum (Oct 10, 2019)

Some Havanese litters aren't very large. I think that's another reason for the length of the wait time.


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