# Pads VS throw rug training issue



## PensiveRN (Jul 7, 2019)

Hi all, 

Disclaimer-I originally joined this forum because I had planned to get Havanese litter mates with my son, but due to a few circumstances amid the Covid crisis, that didnt work out. My son got a Havanese puppy and timing resulted in me getting a Maltipoo instead-they're 2 months apart. They get along great! Pictured below.

Anyway, I still find this forum very helpful for both raising my puppy as well as my Havi grandpup.
Since this forum seems to have alot of successfully indoor trained pups, I'd like to throw my dilemma out there for any feedback/suggestions.

I chose to indoor (grate with pad) train my pup which is working nicely-outdoor pottying comes naturally to her as well during play/walk time. The issue is, while she sticks to consistently peeing on her grates (she hasn't had an accident on our large area rug in several weeks), if she inadvertently gets beyond the gate to my front hallway, she seems obsessed to race to the throw rug by the front door and piddle on it. She'll do this even if she just pottied on the appropriate spot (grated tray). So, it's not like shes getting confused .....she's just incredibly driven to mark on this rug. How can I get her to not pee there in those instances she darts past the doorway gate? She just turned 6 months..... I purposely removed other toss rugs in her allowed kitchen area so she's not tempted, but I would like to keep my entryway rug there.

I'm not sure what possesses her to want to go there when she's never met with praise and is always praised highly for the correct spot. Is she just too young to ignore the impulse of doing the deed on a forbidden area? I liken the behavior to grabbing a napkin and racing out of reach with it bceause she knows its not a desireable behavior. rt maybe I'm totally off base as to the reason.

Suggestions appreciated!


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## Vartina Ancrum (Oct 10, 2019)

Hi there buddy. It's been a long time. I will be sending you a PM.


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## Vartina Ancrum (Oct 10, 2019)

The pups are both very cute!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

PensiveRN said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Disclaimer-I originally joined this forum because I had planned to get Havanese litter mates with my son, but due to a few circumstances amid the Covid crisis, that didnt work out. My son got a Havanese puppy and timing resulted in me getting a Maltipoo instead-they're 2 months apart. They get along great! Pictured below.
> 
> ...


There can be, and likely are, several reasons. First, she has done it a number of times. So it has become habit. It is much MUCH harder, and takes much longer to break a habit than to avoid one. Once something has been done three times, it is getting into the area of "habit". It sounds like this has happened more than that.

Second, it is HIGHLY unlikely that even if you have treated the rug with some anti-urine product, there is enough smell left that SHE can detect it, even if you can't, drawing her back.

What you can be SURE of is that it is NOT "willful" or a "game". Potty training just doesn't work that way.

At this point, annoying as it is in the short run, if you REALLY want to stop this for good, this is what I'd do. I'd get rid of the rug you have their now. You will NEVER COMPLETELY get the smell out of it. Then I would REALLY THOROUGHLY clean the area with a product like "Anti-Icky Poo". This is MUCH stronger than Nature's Miracle when it comes to breaking down urine.

Next, gate off that area of the hall so she simply CANNOT get to it. I know it's a pain in the neck, but it's not forever. If you can't GUARANTEE that NO ONE in the household will let her get to that area, gate it off so she is physically separated from it at all times. For MONTHS. Probably at least 3-4 months. (You can have your new rug down during this period, just don't EVER give her the chance to pee on it!!!)

Next, after AT LEAST a month or so away from the rug/ entry area, start feeding her meals ON the new, clean rug. Dogs do not like to eliminate where they eat. Make a big fuss about her there, and stay with her, talking to her the entire time. The ONLY time she gets to be there is to eat. When she's done eating, in a happy voice, pick her up and take her away from that area again.

Finally, start going to that area and playing with her there. Do occasional "kibble scatters" on the rug as you play, so she has to go find the pieces of kibble. Still don't trust her alone in this area.

If possible, take her in and out a different door to potty and go on walks. If not, carry her through this area. She NEVER gets to walk in this area during re-training.

Eventually, she will get the message that this is a fun/play/food spot, NOT a potty spot, and the old association will fade. But it sounds like that association is very strong in her little brain right now, so it will take some serious work on your part to change it, and ONE MISTAKE will put you back a LONG way. So make SURE you don't allow mistakes to happen during this retraining.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

BTW, she is absolutely to-die-for cute!!!


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## PensiveRN (Jul 7, 2019)

krandall said:


> There can be, and likely are, several reasons. First, she has done it a number of times. So it has become habit. It is much MUCH harder, and takes much longer to break a habit than to avoid one. Once something has been done three times, it is getting into the area of "habit". It sounds like this has happened more than that.
> 
> Second, it is HIGHLY unlikely that even if you have treated the rug with some anti-urine product, there is enough smell left that SHE can detect it, even if you can't, drawing her back.
> 
> ...


Thank you; Sounds like reasonable advice. I guess what I don't understand is how she never has accidents on the FR area rug anymore after having several accidents on there (and probably not cleaned that well of scent) during the first few months we've had her. Its like she knows exactly where to go with the exception of that rug if she can run fast enough to reach it in time before we can grab her. She looks incredibly guilty right after doing so too :wink2:

She gets spayed in 2 weeks so I think we'll start fresh at that point and make hall entry impossible for her for a few months.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

PensiveRN said:


> Thank you; Sounds like reasonable advice. I guess what I don't understand is how she never has accidents on the FR area rug anymore after having several accidents on there (and probably not cleaned that well of scent) during the first few months we've had her. Its like she knows exactly where to go with the exception of that rug if she can run fast enough to reach it in time before we can grab her. She looks incredibly guilty right after doing so too :wink2:
> 
> She gets spayed in 2 weeks so I think we'll start fresh at that point and make hall entry impossible for her for a few months.


"Guilty" isn't an emotion dogs can feel. (in spite of all the "funny" (not really) Youtube videos of "guilty dogs) What she is showing is that she knows you are going to be upset with her, and it is appeasement behavior. She doesn't like you being upset with her. It's not fun. But she also doesn't REALLY understand how to stop the cycle. Because she doesn't know what to do INSTEAD of what she IS doing. That's why you need to break that cycle.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

We're so lucky to have Karen in this forum! Her advice sounds great to me!

The dogs are cute. Good luck to you! Hope to hear an update and see more photos at some point!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

*throw rugs*



PensiveRN said:


> Thank you; Sounds like reasonable advice. I guess what I don't understand is how she never has accidents on the FR area rug anymore after having several accidents on there (and probably not cleaned that well of scent) during the first few months we've had her. Its like she knows exactly where to go with the exception of that rug if she can run fast enough to reach it in time before we can grab her. She looks incredibly guilty right after doing so too :wink2:
> 
> She gets spayed in 2 weeks so I think we'll start fresh at that point and make hall entry impossible for her for a few months.


Perry had a rug like that... his behavior wasn't exactly as you described, but if he went to the door and scratched and I didn't jump quickly enough, he peed on it. I basically removed it from that door - so there is NO mat by the door. Now that mat is one of his "beds" - it sits by his toy box (and for a while after, I kept it piled with toys - same logic, dogs don't like to pee where they play), and now he uses it as one of his beds, he scrunches it up when he wants to lie on something in the living room. I haven't gotten a new mat for the door - I just leave it bare  No accidents in front of the door since we moved it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

PensiveRN said:


> She gets spayed in 2 weeks so I think we'll start fresh at that point and make hall entry impossible for her for a few months.


Just also wanted to add that two more weeks of letting her continue this behavior is a lot more times of letting her practice a behavior you want to stop. Think about the fact that for every time you let her do it, you have to have her NOT do it 20 or more times to break the habit... Do you really want to rack the count up that much more?


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

krandall said:


> Next, after AT LEAST a month or so away from the rug/ entry area, start feeding her meals ON the new, clean rug. Dogs do not like to eliminate where they eat. Make a big fuss about her there, and stay with her, talking to her the entire time. The ONLY time she gets to be there is to eat. When she's done eating, in a happy voice, pick her up and take her away from that area again.
> 
> Finally, start going to that area and playing with her there. Do occasional "kibble scatters" on the rug as you play, so she has to go find the pieces of kibble. Still don't trust her alone in this area.


This is very similar to what I did, over the course of at least a month. I additionally interrupted what we were doing on the rug to take him potty. I even spent a couple of mornings sitting on the rug, working on my laptop, with him hanging out next to me, with his bed and everything, so that I could monitor him and take him potty frequently. After zero accidents I set up the expen so he could only access about 1/4 of it, but never if I wasn't in the room with him.

I do wish I would have exposed him more to the rug, supervised, when he was little. There's a fine line between protecting the home and exposing them enough so that they are potty trained to these areas. I avoided them too much in the beginning. But finding that line is tough, especially because tiny puppies can pee so suddenly.



PensiveRN said:


> Thank you; Sounds like reasonable advice. I guess what I don't understand is how she never has accidents on the FR area rug anymore after having several accidents on there (and probably not cleaned that well of scent) during the first few months we've had her. Its like she knows exactly where to go with the exception of that rug if she can run fast enough to reach it in time before we can grab her. She looks incredibly guilty right after doing so too :wink2:


There are lots of potential reasons, but the one that makes the most sense to me is that potty training is sort of area specific. Not only room specific or even material specific, although distinctly smelling things can make a difference.

It could also be that the materials of the rugs are different so one rug is holding odor more than the other. Especially the backing or rug pad. I have salvaged a couple of small rugs but I had to throw away several pads. Both synthetic and felt pads hold the odor. I did get the odor out of one more expensive rug pad by machine washing it a few times but by that point it was misshapen. Mine were rugs next to doors, when he was left waiting too long to go potty. If the flooring is different, or if the backing could have trapped pee beneath it, there could be odor in the actual floor.

If she's running straight there, I'd also wonder if she's holding it, and maybe try picking her up to take her potty when it's time to come out of the expen, before letting her down on the ground. It also might be far away enough from her bed and the areas she's spent the most time in that she sees it as the "right" place to go. So many times my Havanese has done things that I don't really appreciate, and he is so proud! I think the "guilty" look is actually the "disappointed" look when he realizes I'm not as proud as he is. They aren't kidding when they say Havanese are sensitive. Must be universal


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I do wish I would have exposed him more to the rug, supervised, when he was little. There's a fine line between protecting the home and exposing them enough so that they are potty trained to these areas. I avoided them too much in the beginning. But finding that line is tough, especially because tiny puppies can pee so suddenly.


There is a fine line, but I also think that many people are in too much of a rush. There is no hurry. In my experience, time is on your side, ane erring on the side of caution is NEVER a wrong choice. I'd rather confine/supervise "too long" (whatever that means... it's not a contest, there is no rush) rather than allow accidents.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

krandall said:


> There is a fine line, but I also think that many people are in too much of a rush. There is no hurry. In my experience, time is on your side, ane erring on the side of caution is NEVER a wrong choice. I'd rather confine/supervise "too long" (whatever that means... it's not a contest, there is no rush) rather than allow accidents.


Oh you're right  I didn't let mine very close to rugs until he was almost a year old, probably even older. I just wish I had supervised him on rugs earlier, when I was already putting the time in, taking him out more often, etc. It would have been easy to supervise him for 2 minutes on the rug by the back door right after bringing him inside, and give him a treat there and a couple of minutes of playtime. Still, avoiding the rugs was better than too much freedom too early.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

PensiveRN said:


> Thank you; Sounds like reasonable advice. I guess what I don't understand is how she never has accidents on the FR area rug anymore after having several accidents on there (and probably not cleaned that well of scent) during the first few months we've had her. Its like she knows exactly where to go with the exception of that rug if she can run fast enough to reach it in time before we can grab her. She looks incredibly guilty right after doing so too :wink2:
> 
> She gets spayed in 2 weeks so I think we'll start fresh at that point and make hall entry impossible for her for a few months.


Don't put off gating the area and getting started. Don't wait two weeks. Now is the time.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PensiveRN View Post
Thank you; Sounds like reasonable advice. I guess what I don't understand is how she never has accidents on the FR area rug anymore after having several accidents on there (and probably not cleaned that well of scent) during the first few months we've had her. Its like she knows exactly where to go with the exception of that rug if she can run fast enough to reach it in time before we can grab her. She looks incredibly guilty right after doing so too [end quote]

Perry was a rescue and we got him at 8 months old. I don't know how he was potty trained before that - but I suspect it was with the cloth pee pads. The reason I suspect that is because he's been very reliable for a long time - but for that same time he would very consistently pee on the throw rug in front of the door AND would also pee on the door mat outside of the front door on the patio! I suspect that he really didn't see a difference between the cloth pads that were "good" and these two things.

As I mentioned in another post I just removed the pad from the front door and supervised him more closely whenever he was near the welcome mat in front of the frontdoor - and haven't had an "accident" on either place for at least a year (but I also haven't put the mat back in front of the door inside the house either).

Do you know if she might have (intentionally or not) been "trained" to a cloth pad? She might just think she's doing a very good thing and doesn't understand why you're upset about it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> Quote:
> Do you know if she might have (intentionally or not) been "trained" to a cloth pad? She might just think she's doing a very good thing and doesn't understand why you're upset about it.


Very good point. I'd forgotten about that, because none of mine were trained that way, but we've seen it MANY times on the forum that many puppies whose breeders start them on cloth pee pads have a VERY hard time differentiating between cloth pee pads and other cloth items on the floor (throw rugs, towels or clothes dropped on the floor, etc.) for a long, LONG time. Some never really get over that.

It would actually make me very hesitant to take a puppy trained on cloth pee pads.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Melissa Brill said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by PensiveRN View Post
> Thank you; Sounds like reasonable advice. I guess what I don't understand is how she never has accidents on the FR area rug anymore after having several accidents on there (and probably not cleaned that well of scent) during the first few months we've had her. Its like she knows exactly where to go with the exception of that rug if she can run fast enough to reach it in time before we can grab her. She looks incredibly guilty right after doing so too
> 
> ...


HOW DO YOU KNOW HE'S NOT PEEING ON THE OTHER RUG?


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

*cloth pads*



krandall said:


> Very good point. I'd forgotten about that, because none of mine were trained that way, but we've seen it MANY times on the forum that many puppies whose breeders start them on cloth pee pads have a VERY hard time differentiating between cloth pee pads and other cloth items on the floor (throw rugs, towels or clothes dropped on the floor, etc.) for a long, LONG time. Some never really get over that.
> 
> It would actually make me very hesitant to take a puppy trained on cloth pee pads.


I agree. I would definitely not take one from a breeder (since there are other breeders who use other methods available) - for another rescue, that would be one factor for consideration for sure.

The irony of Perry and the throw rugs (likely cloth pad training) is that he absolutely refuses! to use the paper pee pads when we travel. He seriously holds it for anywhere between 24- 30 hours instead of using the pads when we're on layover in an airport that doesn't have a rest area for dogs.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

@PensiveRN.....OTHO ... Count me as being so!!!! appreciative of Big Hearted people - like yourself - who adopt rescues or re-home dogs. All or most of those babies are going to have issues. Along with socialization or health problems, the majority of dogs that are given up is because they are NOT housebroken.

This might not be the forum for rescued dogs who need behavioral training from experts in that area. It's a Great place for new puppy advice.

I have a friend who just recused 30 terriers from an Extreme Dog Hoarder. Last year they rescued over 55 from the same lady.

These terriers are all in cages right now in a big air conditioned barn. My friend brings lots of dogs into her home where they are housebroken, socialized and retrained, with lots of volunteers that help.

These 30 little terriers are cute as they can be, look healthy and are being taken care of while big hearted people are found who are willing to take a rescue.

They will be checked by a vet, vaccinated and neutered before placed.

I'm not in a place and I don't want to deal with a rescue. I do feel ashamed feeling that way because so many dogs need homes *I so appreciate there are people are out there who do this, like Melissa Brill a forum member, who only adopts rescues. *

I help by making money donations to help take care of the dogs while people who do this Heart Breaking Job.
@PensiveRN ... you little babies are darling. Hang in there. Seek out advice from Rescue Groups and Melissa probably has a lots of experienced advice.

You can retain that little dog.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> I agree. I would definitely not take one from a breeder (since there are other breeders who use other methods available) - for another rescue, that would be one factor for consideration for sure.
> 
> The irony of Perry and the throw rugs (likely cloth pad training) is that he absolutely refuses! to use the paper pee pads when we travel. He seriously holds it for anywhere between 24- 30 hours instead of using the pads when we're on layover in an airport that doesn't have a rest area for dogs.


I think that cloth and paper pee pads are VERY different to dogs. I think that's part of the reason that people who use paper pee pads DON'T have the same problems as those who have used cloth pee pads. (I just hate paper pee pads (at least for every day use!) for a bunch of OTHER reasons! LOL!)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> I'm not in a place and I don't want to deal with a rescue. I do feel ashamed feeling that way because so many dogs need homes




I do NOT think that you should feel the LEAST bit ashamed about this. I have great respect for people who enjoy fostering and like to get their dogs via adoption. I want specific attributes in my dogs. I'm really choosy about the specific dogs because of the jobs I need them to do for me, and the way I want them to fit into my life. It would be a LOT more guess-work with a rescue. It's not for me.

I do not in any way contribute to the "stay dog/rescue/over-population problem, and neither do the breeders I work with. If it was a choice between my dogs and a rescue... I probably wouldn't have a dog at all. Not going to make excuses for that and not going to feel bad about it. I appreciate people who do that work and who contribute to the RIGHT rescue groups, (NOT ASPCA or HSUS, BTW) but it's not for me.

Honestly, here in the northeast, there are NOT a lot of dogs who need homes. There are almost no strays. Almost all the dogs in shelters up here are "redistributed" from shelters in the south.


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## PensiveRN (Jul 7, 2019)

krandall said:


> Just also wanted to add that two more weeks of letting her continue this behavior is a lot more times of letting her practice a behavior you want to stop. Think about the fact that for every time you let her do it, you have to have her NOT do it 20 or more times to break the habit... Do you really want to rack the count up that much more?


Just to clarify, the hallway to the entryway has always been gated off, she just slipped through it when mistakenly left open 2-3 times. I've since removed the rug entirely and probably will toss it due to probable lingering odor. We've been carrying her to the front door recently when we want to go for walks.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

PensiveRN said:


> Just to clarify, the hallway to the entryway has always been gated off, she just slipped through it when mistakenly left open 2-3 times. I've since removed the rug entirely and probably will toss it due to probable lingering odor. We've been carrying her to the front door recently when we want to go for walks.


Sounds perfect!


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Melissa Brill said:


> The irony of Perry and the throw rugs (likely cloth pad training) is that he absolutely refuses! to use the paper pee pads when we travel. He seriously holds it for anywhere between 24- 30 hours instead of using the pads when we're on layover in an airport that doesn't have a rest area for dogs.


Perry, Perry, Perry, you are SUCH a character! I wish we could meet you one day! :grin2:


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> Honestly, here in the northeast, there are NOT a lot of dogs who need homes. There are almost no strays. Almost all the dogs in shelters up here are "redistributed" from shelters in the south.


We live in Minnesota, and most of the people I know who rescued dogs got them from Minnesota or Iowa shelters who drove down to Texas to bring up dogs in need of homes.

I admire people who rescue dogs, and I admire your passion, Mikki, for educating people about puppy mills. I am friends with a couple in their 60s who recently got a puppy from a pet store. I didn't even know pet stores still existed. They gushed about how the store supposedly gets its puppies, but it sounded like a puppy mill situation to me. I was disappointed they hadn't mentioned their idea of getting a puppy to me, because I would have directed them to shelters and reputable breeders. These are the same people who pride themselves on "training" this puppy without treats (i.e., old school). Anyway, I've wondered about "rescuing" puppy mill dogs, but you clearly explained in another thread, Mikki, that a person shouldn't PURCHASE a puppy mill dog because doing so feeds the puppy mill industry. Rather, a person should REPORT the puppy mill and possibly get a puppy once it's taken away from the puppy mill and put in a shelter. I really hadn't ever thought of that.

The reason we've not given too much thought to rescuing dogs is that DH is super allergic to almost all dogs other than the Havanese. Other dogs (even so-called hypoallergenic dogs) give him hives and affect his breathing. So we got a purebred Havanese. I have come to really like EVERYTHING about this breed!

Back to the original topic of this thread, PensiveRN, I think you've received good feedback in this thread. I agree with everyone who said time is of the essence and that converting that location into a fun place where treats are given would be a good idea. Before Shama was completely potty trained, she had some accidents on our carpet, but they were never consistently in one place. Now she is really good about asking to go outside, even when we're visiting someone (back in the day of visiting people). She stands by sliding glass doors, looking outside. If we're not near sliding glass doors, she scratches at the door or the wall. What can I say? She's a genius! :smile2:


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