# He thinks he's a lizard !



## DebbyTutton (Oct 18, 2013)

Can anyone help me ? Alfie (13 months) thinks he's a lizard. 

Every time he sees anyone his little tongue starts going in and out. It's not such a major issue with us but not everyone enjoys being licked by him. At first we thought it might be the salt he was after as it has been pretty hot but now it seems a constant thing and we really need to stop it.

I realize that we need to stop him doing it to us and then he will stop doing it to others but does anyone have any suggestions ?


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

Will be interested in the responses you get because Molly is a licker too. She is not so bad with us but loves to give any bare skin on guests lots of kisses.


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## Naturelover (Nov 30, 2013)

I'm not sure if this would work with a dedicated licker, but I can tell you one thing I've tried with my little guy. He likes to lick but not excessively. Sometimes he will lick my foot excessively if it is in proximity. I don't mind this, but I want to be able to ask him to stop when it's time to stop, especially for guests and the like. When he started licking, I got a treat in my hand. I said in a sweet tone of voice "Archer, enough". That caused him to turn his head and look at me because usually anything I say that starts with his name is cause to pay attention to me. Then I would give him a treat and remove my foot from the area.

Now, I say "Archer, enough" (or you could say "Thank you" which guests may be more comfortable with) and when he stops for a moment, I praise him and pet him and love on him. We don't really have any problems with excessive licking now. But each dog is different and Archer has not been an extremely devoted licker as some are- my technique was more for proactive management.


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## DebbyTutton (Oct 18, 2013)

*Worth a try ...*

Sounds like a good idea - I'll give it a try and let you know how it goes in a week or so.


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## Naturelover (Nov 30, 2013)

I should add that I say it in a very friendly tone of voice. I find that people often say "Leave It" and stuff like that in a more commanding or negative tone of voice just due to the nature of the command. But there's no reason for that as we are just teaching them the meaning of words we choose to define to them. Then if ever a sharp tone is needed (hopefully rarely), it seems to have more effect. 

I'd be very curious to find out if this does work so please report back!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yeah I wouldn't worry about trying to curtail it. Most likely its one of two things and something that is natural for dogs. It's either a calming signal/appeasement behavior to convey that they are not a threat (more with strangers) or a displacement behavior indicating that they are a little stressed or uncertain of the situation. Either way its only "changed" by the events around it, not by anything you can teach or command. You can after a few licks try to distract with something or ask for an alternate behavior.


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## DebbyTutton (Oct 18, 2013)

Hi DaveTGabby,
Thanks for your comments. It's interesting to hear your view. I've been saying "No!" When he licks which seems to confuse him a little. He puts his head to one side and looks at me as if to say 'it's what I do'. He seems to have reduced it a little with me and my HH (handsome hubby). 
We have guests in our gite at the moment and I've asked them to do the same when he greets them.
Summary; so far so good but watch this space.


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## Naturelover (Nov 30, 2013)

Licking is absolutely a natural behaviour, yes, but there are many other natural dog behaviours, such as barking, that left unchecked don't help dogs to fit into our modern lives and families very well. I know two obsessive-lickers, and the obsessive licking that these dogs do actually limits how they can interact with family and friends, especially new people who may not be keen on an endless tongue bath on any area of exposed skin. It means less cuddles and less pets for the dogs as people literally don't want to be near them after a while. And it also makes it hard for anyone who may have dog allergies to interact with your pup as the saliva tends to trigger many people. 

So I don't think it's reasonable to ask a dog never to lick, but to have a limit on it and have them earn something preferable when they do stop when you ask. You may want to stay away from using "no" as that might discourage it too strongly, and usually that should mean "That behaviour will not be rewarded". What if "Thank you" or "That's enough" meant "If I stop doing this thing (licking) that is very reinforcing to me, I will receive something I like even more" instead? Beginning of course with food reinforcement, and eventually praise and a pat for complying. That might alleviate some of your concern about saying "No" and the confused and or disappointed look you're perceiving from your pup.

Just my point of view- I'm still learning and continually evolving my point of view on this stuff too!


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## DebbyTutton (Oct 18, 2013)

Yeah, I think I agree. I will change it to thank you. Thanks for your comments and suggestions it's always interesting to hear alternative ideas.


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## DebbyTutton (Oct 18, 2013)

Its now been nearly a month since I posted this problem and I MAY have sorted it out. It has been really hard and I know some of you will tut tut at this. Each time he starts the licking he gets a firm but not brutal slap on the nose. I must point out that its not hard but just for the shock factor. He then gets ignored for a few minutes while he thinks things over. Then he gets petted again and if it happens again we go through the process all over again. The hardest part has been enforcement through our friends and some (who refuse to do it) have been banned from the house until the problem has been rectified.

As I say hard to enforce but it certainly seems to be working.

Hopefully this will help anyone with the same problem.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

DebbyTutton said:


> Its now been nearly a month since I posted this problem and I MAY have sorted it out. It has been really hard and I know some of you will tut tut at this. Each time he starts the licking he gets a firm but not brutal slap on the nose. I must point out that its not hard but just for the shock factor. He then gets ignored for a few minutes while he thinks things over. Then he gets petted again and if it happens again we go through the process all over again. The hardest part has been enforcement through our friends and some (who refuse to do it) have been banned from the house until the problem has been rectified.
> 
> As I say hard to enforce but it certainly seems to be working.
> 
> Hopefully this will help anyone with the same problem.


I hope most people will NOT use this method.  There is no reason to be swatting a dog on the nose, however gently. it may "solve" your perceived problem, but it will also teach your dog to want to avoid hands around its face. Or worse, it could teach a dog to nip at hands in self defense.


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## DebbyTutton (Oct 18, 2013)

Hi Karen,
As I said I appreciate this is not for everyone. We have found it has stopped a habit. It has certainly not had any of the problems you mention. I often stroke him around the nozzle when I remove the burrs that get tangled. He is a loving dog and it wasn't something we wanted to do but we felt we had no option. His obsessive licking was a problem we had to stop and we felt no other way was working.
I don't think swatting is a word I would use to define the tap it was not one that hurt him in any way it was the surprise of a short yet quick movement he was not expecting that stopped the licking not any pain linked with it.
Please understand I would NEVER hurt my boy.


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## Naturelover (Nov 30, 2013)

Hey Debby, out of curiosity, did you try the positive reinforcement-based technique I mentioned? Did you get anywhere with it? Just wondering if it worked at all for you or if it was totally ineffective leading you to approach it differently. I'm always interested to hear follow up as it affects if I'll recommend the idea to anyone else.


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## DebbyTutton (Oct 18, 2013)

Hi Naturelover,

Yes, I did try. We used "no lick" it seemed to improve for a while but then when we thought we were getting somewhere he started again with vigour. 
It was very difficult as guests in our gite objected to being washed by him and we had to keep him in. It wasn't really fair on either of the dogs to be kept in because of Alfie licking.
It was a last resort but we really believe it has worked.


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

My 2 cents: I wouldn't recommend swatting/tapping/hitting your dog as a way to enforce certain behaviors. I believe you need to train your dog for what you want not for what you don't want. Positive reinforcement is the best strategy (imo), especially if you're expecting others to "correct" your dog too. I think spending the extra time on this technique results in better long term changes.


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## Naturelover (Nov 30, 2013)

DebbyTutton said:


> Hi Naturelover,
> 
> Yes, I did try. We used "no lick" it seemed to improve for a while but then when we thought we were getting somewhere he started again with vigour.
> It was very difficult as guests in our gite objected to being washed by him and we had to keep him in. It wasn't really fair on either of the dogs to be kept in because of Alfie licking.
> It was a last resort but we really believe it has worked.


Hi Debby,

Well I do agree with the others that correction-based training is rarely the best approach to any problem behaviour. The fact that your guests are not comfortable applying this correction is a clue that it may be seen as aversive by others, and that is a problem already if you aren't able to achieve consistency with everyone who is interacting with the dog. It could also result in Alfie making negative associations with other people- for example, if he was licking a child, would you recommend the child swat him on the nose? Sounds like a recipe to make a dog that doesn't like children right there, particularly because children wouldn't have good timing or control of the amount of force you think is ok.

That being said, I am learning how to train dogs now and I'm very interested in the results people have with different techniques. I am definitely 100% pro-positive-reinforcement for a number of reasons, but I won't get into those here.

When you say you tried "no lick", can you tell me exactly what you tried, step-by-step? And for how long? How many times a day for example, would the opportunity arise that he is trying to lick you or someone else excessively? Did you just try saying it or did you pair it with a treat when he stopped? Or a treat to tempt him to stop, to get the behaviour of stopping, and then using that treat and praise as a reward?

You mentioned that the "no lick" seemed to work for a while then returned with vigour. That could be an extinction burst. Sometimes the behaviour we are trying to get away from will come back with a vengeance just before it disappears, kind of like a final attempt to see if this behaviour can remain and be reinforced (and it is probably self-reinforcing since he presumably enjoys it).

Anyway, I'm trying to understand better if this was actually a failure of the technique I recommended or if you may have applied it differently than I originally described?


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

MarinaGirl said:


> My 2 cents: I wouldn't recommend swatting/tapping/hitting your dog as a way to enforce certain behaviors. I believe you need to train your dog for what you want not for what you don't want. Positive reinforcement is the best strategy (imo), especially if you're expecting others to "correct" your dog too. I think spending the extra time on this technique results in better long term changes.


Well put. I would strongly dissuade anyone from using this method. What you perceive as a mild interrupt, can be fairly aversive to a dog. Petting a dog's head gently can be annoying. Aversives run the risk of your dog forming a negative feeling not only to the person applying them ,but also to the event that is happening at the time. Three , dogs tend to habituate to them, leading the person to increase the intensity when they stop working. Four, they must be applied at the exact moment or they can be associated with something else they have done. They erode the bond between the owner and the dog. Aversives are in the eye of the dog ,not the owner. It is difficult to get your friends onboard, so don't even try. For now they should ignore your dog. I would like to reiterate my earlier comments. For more on AVERSIVES do a google or watch for my article in Havanese Breed Magazine coming in December issue. http://www.havanesebreed.com/pdf?SSLoginOk=true "A punishment is defined as a stimulus that decreases the frequency of the immediately preceding behavior such that it is less likely to occur in the future. Frequent use of an aversive stimulus is proof that it is not working and therefore, cannot be defined as punishment. Instead, when aversive stimuli are not punishing, depending on their severity, they are either harassment or abuse".


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

I have found with my hav that he is much better when you tell him what you want rather than what you dont want. Please try something else other than the nose tap. Especially now that you think it has worked, there is no reason to continue it. Ask him to sit, ask him to shake hands, tell him to leave it, get him to do what you want instead! My dog isnt a major licker because we discourage it, but when he does I will either say leave it or ask him to sit or down, then reward him with a pat. Sometimes I pick him up and hug him to show him that hugs are preferable to licking. 

Whenever possible I avoid using the word no as well. Sometimes it pops out from instinct/reaction but I learned in dog training that it is much better to ask something else. Ask for what you want instead! My dog is a major people pleaser - he really does not want to do anything wrong - this is true of most dogs but it seems very much obvious with my hav. If he thinks you are displeased he just looks so forlorn. My guy gets excited so our problem is jumping on strangers or running out the back door without being told he can go. he doesnt do either all of the time, but these are situations when he just gets SO EXCITED!!! he does not want to listen. So I try to show him what i want and that he will get rewarded if he does that. For example if he runs outside when i open the back door, which he is usually good about but once in awhile gets beside himself and bolts out (he plays on the back deck with us so loves to go out there), I call him back in, praise him for that, close the back door, then tell him wait and open it again. Then I tell him he can go out (I use "release" , and praise him for going out. Then he "gets it" and usually doesnt do it again. 

It is a change in mindset, but once you buy into it and try it a few times with the dog and see the results, it is easier to implement.


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## Naturelover (Nov 30, 2013)

Wish there was a "Like" button for this post. A great and concrete example of positive reinforcement in action.



SJ1998 said:


> I have found with my hav that he is much better when you tell him what you want rather than what you dont want. Please try something else other than the nose tap. Especially now that you think it has worked, there is no reason to continue it. Ask him to sit, ask him to shake hands, tell him to leave it, get him to do what you want instead! My dog isnt a major licker because we discourage it, but when he does I will either say leave it or ask him to sit or down, then reward him with a pat. Sometimes I pick him up and hug him to show him that hugs are preferable to licking.
> 
> Whenever possible I avoid using the word no as well. Sometimes it pops out from instinct/reaction but I learned in dog training that it is much better to ask something else. Ask for what you want instead! My dog is a major people pleaser - he really does not want to do anything wrong - this is true of most dogs but it seems very much obvious with my hav. If he thinks you are displeased he just looks so forlorn. My guy gets excited so our problem is jumping on strangers or running out the back door without being told he can go. he doesnt do either all of the time, but these are situations when he just gets SO EXCITED!!! he does not want to listen. So I try to show him what i want and that he will get rewarded if he does that. For example if he runs outside when i open the back door, which he is usually good about but once in awhile gets beside himself and bolts out (he plays on the back deck with us so loves to go out there), I call him back in, praise him for that, close the back door, then tell him wait and open it again. Then I tell him he can go out (I use "release" , and praise him for going out. Then he "gets it" and usually doesnt do it again.
> 
> It is a change in mindset, but once you buy into it and try it a few times with the dog and see the results, it is easier to implement.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I agree. Great post.


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## DebbyTutton (Oct 18, 2013)

Hi Naturelover,

As a rule I would also use treats to enforce good behavior and training. It has worked with all his other training and I agree it is the best option. But these start from the dog not doing it. For example not sitting, you say sit and he sits I give a treat. But this was different. Alfie was licking before I could stop him so that's what I had to do. Stop him once he had started. He had to know that to act like this was not acceptable. I could not catch him before he started so had to stop him while doing it. The tap worked to get his attention at what point he stopped, then I could get him to sit and he got a treat. Now he doesn't do it and he gets the normal praise for welcoming people without washing them. Saying no lick made no difference as he was already doing it and didnt understand what I was asking him not to do.


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

thank you!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

DebbyTutton said:


> Hi Naturelover,
> 
> As a rule I would also use treats to enforce good behavior and training. It has worked with all his other training and I agree it is the best option. But these start from the dog not doing it. For example not sitting, you say sit and he sits I give a treat. But this was different. Alfie was licking before I could stop him so that's what I had to do. Stop him once he had started. He had to know that to act like this was not acceptable. I could not catch him before he started so had to stop him while doing it. The tap worked to get his attention at what point he stopped, then I could get him to sit and he got a treat. Now he doesn't do it and he gets the normal praise for welcoming people without washing them. Saying no lick made no difference as he was already doing it and didnt understand what I was asking him not to do.


But Havanese are little dogs. It's easy enough to pick them up, interrupt the behavior, and distract or ask for a replacement behavior. If he does it with company&#8230; simple. He stays behind a gate or in an ex-pen when people arrive. when he can sit quietly upon request, he gets tons of praise and treats. Then he gets to come out on leash. If he can sit quietly in front of the guest, again, TONS of QUIET, CALM praise and treats.

Please watch this video for a great way to prevent or cure excessive licking. I did this naturally with Kodi when he was a puppy, because I've never cared for face licking. So our "house rule" from the beginning was no more than 2 licks, and only on our fingers. He never even tries to lick faces now, and only licks hands or fingers if you hold them out to him.






I'm glad for you that your method seems to have worked in your case, and that no harm (emotional&#8230; I know you were not harming her physically!) was done to her. But I think it is very important, in the context of this thread that we give other, non-aversive method to people who might read this with the same problem.


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## Naturelover (Nov 30, 2013)

DebbyTutton said:


> Hi Naturelover,
> 
> As a rule I would also use treats to enforce good behavior and training. It has worked with all his other training and I agree it is the best option. But these start from the dog not doing it. For example not sitting, you say sit and he sits I give a treat. But this was different. Alfie was licking before I could stop him so that's what I had to do. Stop him once he had started. He had to know that to act like this was not acceptable. I could not catch him before he started so had to stop him while doing it. The tap worked to get his attention at what point he stopped, then I could get him to sit and he got a treat. Now he doesn't do it and he gets the normal praise for welcoming people without washing them. Saying no lick made no difference as he was already doing it and didnt understand what I was asking him not to do.


Thanks for the explanation. I think one aspect of my suggestion that perhaps I didn't explain well enough is that if you keep treats nearby or just around the house or in your pockets, when he is licking, you can use the smell of the treat in your hand to actually get the behaviour of stopping licking, and you now have something you can reinforce with the actual treat. Without doing that, the dog really has no idea what it is you want him to do because the meaning of the cue has not been explained to them in a way they can understand.

Once you have let your excessively-licking dog smell the treat, you have a small window of opportunity between the licking and the nose sniffing the treat to add a cue of "enough" "thank you" or "no lick", for example. Before long, your dog will hear "Enough" or whatever your cue is and stop licking in anticipation of a treat delivery.

It's a similar idea to what is used for teaching "drop it" or to stop barking. The dogs tend to catch on fast, and then the trick is to space out the time by raising your criteria for how long they stop licking, stop barking, etc, before you are giving the treat, and of course moving toward not luring (not showing them the treat to get the behaviour) them once you have taught the meaning of the cue by using the treat to get the behaviour initially.

Hopefully other folks who have an issue with this could consider this +R method to start, and also use some of the strategies that Karen and others have offered up.


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## Hsusa (Dec 21, 2014)

I just want to say how much I appreciate this forum. Sheba has started licking excessively and I don't want it to become a problem. I read through this thread and was so impressed by the intelligent discussion of positive behavior training versus aversives. Although there was some disagreement about methods, there was no finger-pointing, just rational discussion, and good descriptions of the dog's behavior on the part of the owner. I am going to try Naturelover's suggestions. I will start carrying treats and when Sheba is licking too much, say "enough," then give her the treat. If anyone has anything to add, please do.


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## Carma (Mar 10, 2015)

I have found this informative and interesting to hear each persons post. We don't have a big problem with Sugar on this but occasionally it is.


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## Naturelover (Nov 30, 2013)

Hsusa said:


> I just want to say how much I appreciate this forum. Sheba has started licking excessively and I don't want it to become a problem. I read through this thread and was so impressed by the intelligent discussion of positive behavior training versus aversives. Although there was some disagreement about methods, there was no finger-pointing, just rational discussion, and good descriptions of the dog's behavior on the part of the owner. I am going to try Naturelover's suggestions. I will start carrying treats and when Sheba is licking too much, say "enough," then give her the treat. If anyone has anything to add, please do.


Thanks very much for letting us know you're going to try it! It would be awesome if you post about it so we can all learn from you if it works or what you try, etc. In a sense it's all an on-going experiment. Unfortunately it is harder to do real scientific trials with dogs although it certainly is done in some places. Anyway let us know the results!


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## Hsusa (Dec 21, 2014)

Okay, I have been trying this. I am keeping the treats on me and when Sheba licks, I interrupt by saying "enough" then distracting her with the treat. I'm not sure yet if it's working. It definitely interrupts the licking. But I worry that she is learning "if I lick, I get a treat." I need to keep data on how often she licks daily. I should have gotten a baseline!


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## Naturelover (Nov 30, 2013)

Hsusa said:


> Okay, I have been trying this. I am keeping the treats on me and when Sheba licks, I interrupt by saying "enough" then distracting her with the treat. I'm not sure yet if it's working. It definitely interrupts the licking. But I worry that she is learning "if I lick, I get a treat." I need to keep data on how often she licks daily. I should have gotten a baseline!


So once Sheba has learned the meaning of "Enough" and to expect a treat afterwards, I would think about phasing out the treats and when she is licking too much, saying "Enough" then saying 'good girl" and rubbing her or patting her in some way she likes. Then, you could re-direct and bring her a toy to nibble on, or a chew stick, or just move your body out of her way. Eventually, you could start giving her treats if she is sitting near you and doesn't lick you, as well.


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## Hsusa (Dec 21, 2014)

We are working away. Sheba is definitely interrupting the licking when I say Enough in anticipation of treats.


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## Hsusa (Dec 21, 2014)

I'm feeling pretty good about the phasing out of licking! Now, when I say "enough," she stops. Sometimes I have to do it more than once, because she'll start up again pretty quickly. I say "enough" she stops licking, and so it goes. Hopefully, we'll move on to saying "enough" once and that will be "enough!" She still licks my husband's feet but that is his own fault for not following the program. Husbands are hard to train!


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