# Quit training class, but...



## Dory (Jan 4, 2012)

I am happy to announce that Quincy and I have quit the puppy class that I had a bad gut feeling about. This is the one that just threw him in with the other puppies to play off leash even though he was fearful. The trainer had also told me not to pick him up or touch him during puppy play. My gut was telling me something was wrong after the second class and she called this training method flooding. I read about it online and don't agree with socializing puppies like that. She did not introduce him with an expen and all of the other puppies were huge! This is Q's first class ever.

We weren't able to take him to class last week because hubby was out of town and I had a meeting that I had to be at, so it gave me an extra week to think about it. The more I thought about it, the more my gut was telling me that it wasn't the right place for us. He wasn't having fun and I was stressed out.

I talked to a new trainer this morning who is going to sit down with us and talk about everything. We are going to try a puppy play group at her facility, and she has a class starting next Tuesday where she plans to introduce him to the others with an expen. There are also a couple of Havs in the class and all of the other dogs are small. I know he will need to get used to bigger dogs at some point, but I don't think that just throwing him to the wolves and expecting that "it will all sort itself out" was the way to do it. Besides, we'll work up to the big dogs.

I feel like a huge burden has been lifted off my shoulders. I just want him to be a happy and well socialized dog. He is great with people, it's the other dogs he is afraid of. I kick myself every day for not starting the socialization earlier! I was so afraid to start him with any training before all of his shots were finished. Well, plus I couldn't find a class during the summer. Do trainers take summers off? LOL

Here is a link to the new trainer's website, please let me know what you think at first glance: 
www.dogswithjody.com
Blog: http://blog.timesunion.com/dogtraining/


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

good for you!!! We have to do what we feel is best for our babies!!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I won't judge, because I wasn't there to witness things But the whole point of puppy classes is to meet other dogs and that includes larger dogs. How old is he. The fact that she used the term flooding is puzzling. This is something The Dog Whisperer does, and it's not recommended. That being said. Most good classes involve off leash training, and the best involve all offleash and the only time a leash is on is when training loose leash walking. I don't know what to say other than it's important to meet large dogs offleash, hopefully the new trainer ,does this right. Not sure if I agree with an expen, if its's small. The idea is to give the large dog feedback when they are getting too exhuberant with smaller dogs. Hope everything works out. That's why we cant' delay the socialization before twelve weeks.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

My puppy class was some what of a odd class. We had four puppys a golden retriver, white lab and a Bernese mt dog and little Zoey. The trainer was very considerate of Zoeys size difference and during puppy play for the first couple weeks she decided it was best for her to just watch the others interact. By the third class she picked the less aggressive puppy to go out with Zoey surprisingly it was the Bernese mt dog. Zoey never really got into the puppy play and even to this day doeasn't really play with big dogs. The trainer never pushed her and I was happy about that. I took her to about 10 dog shows so she really got a chance to be exposed to all sized dogs.But she has never really gotten secure. She's just happy with her sister and That's fine with me.I tried a dog park a few weeks ago and she just wanted me to hold her so I did.


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## Dory (Jan 4, 2012)

davetgabby said:


> I won't judge, because I wasn't there to witness things But the whole point of puppy classes is to meet other dogs and that includes larger dogs. How old is he. The fact that she used the term flooding is puzzling. This is something The Dog Whisperer does, and it's not recommended. That being said. Most good classes involve off leash training, and the best involve all offleash and the only time a leash is on is when training loose leash walking. I don't know what to say other than it's important to meet large dogs offleash, hopefully the new trainer ,does this right. Not sure if I agree with an expen, if its's small. The idea is to give the large dog feedback when they are getting too exhuberant with smaller dogs. Hope everything works out. That's why we cant' delay the socialization before twelve weeks.


Quincy just turned five months old last week. I totally agree that he should meet the bigger dogs and I want him to; however, I didn't agree with how she ran the whole puppy play time at all and how she introduced him to the other puppies when I told her up front that he hadn't been around other dogs since we got him. All leashes stayed on during puppy play and once the owners dropped the leashes it was a free for all. The Shepherd and the Lab would gang up on Q and pin him to the wall. The trainer had split the class in two because she had older dogs in the class as well, so she wasn't always watching what was going on because she was working with the older dogs. Once the owners dropped their dog's leashes (puppy play), they would chat with each other and not watch what was going on. One of the larger puppies actually grabbed Q's leash and yanked so hard on it that I thought his neck would snap. I was told that if I touched him, comforted him, or picked him up that he would think it was okay to "act that way in class all the time." You think that when you're in a training class with a certified trainer that they know what is best, right?

With the whole flooding thing, I remember her saying, "Caesar Milan would be proud me practicing flooding with Quincy." I am by no means a Caesar M. fan, so that just set off warning bells for me and it was kind of the last straw.

Except for the puppy play (for about 15 mins), everything was on leash and I'm sure it was because there were older dogs in the class too. Whenever we would do the loose leash walking training and another dog was on the same side as Q was, he would cross behind me to the other side.
She kept comparing him to another Hav that she had in class one time and said that he would "come around." Each dog is different, so I didn't understand how she could generalize like that.

I had really wanted to socialize him early with other dogs and he was great with the breeder's dogs and his littermate, but we don't have a lot of friends with dogs, so it was hard to do this. I couldn't find any puppy classes in July or August ( we brought him home in the end of June).

I think the new trainer is just going to use the expen to introduce him and see how it goes the first night. We're meeting with her for a consultation on Wednesday afternoon so we can talk more and she can meet him, so the whole expen thing might change. I'm not sure if she meant using the expen in the class or for his first play group (which is the same day as our consult with her).

Anyway, I am hoping that all goes well too. Not only was the last class nonrefundable, but I am now going to be paying for another class. I did email the former trainer and told her how I felt, but all I got back from her was, "Best of luck!"

Cross your fingers for us!


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## whimsy (Apr 3, 2010)

Good for you...always go with your gut feeling!


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

The second trainer sounds like a dream. Very much like mine. Although Ted of course was the smallest during off leash time, my trainer made the other owners be on their dogs, on being mindful of Teds size. She was also following around the outside of the dogs either grabbing them by the collar if needed or getting the owner to react. Ted was never jumped or pinned and when he had enough he turned around and barked at them and came trotting back to me. The trainer was very pleased that Ted stood his ground. He is still a bit timid but still thinks about exploring another dog when he comes in contact with one outside of class. Maybe a really good doggy daycare may be good once a week once Q gets into his new classes and gets more comfortable


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## Dory (Jan 4, 2012)

lise said:


> The second trainer sounds like a dream. Very much like mine. Although Ted of course was the smallest during off leash time, my trainer made the other owners be on their dogs, on being mindful of Teds size. She was also following around the outside of the dogs either grabbing them by the collar if needed or getting the owner to react. Ted was never jumped or pinned and when he had enough he turned around and barked at them and came trotting back to me. The trainer was very pleased that Ted stood his ground. He is still a bit timid but still thinks about exploring another dog when he comes in contact with one outside of class. Maybe a really good doggy daycare may be good once a week once Q gets into his new classes and gets more comfortable


I don't really want to do the doggy daycare as there is only one that is close to me and that's the one where we just quit training LOL. The new trainer is almost an hour away from us, but if it works, I don't care about the drive.
I am going to do the pay as you go dog play group that they have there on Wednesdays and see how that goes. It really stinks that we have friends who are cat people LOL.


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

Dory said:


> I don't really want to do the doggy daycare as there is only one that is close to me and that's the one where we just quit training LOL. The new trainer is almost an hour away from us, but if it works, I don't care about the drive.
> I am going to do the pay as you go dog play group that they have there on Wednesdays and see how that goes. It really stinks that we have friends who are cat people LOL.


The pay as you go sounds great. I am meeting up with the daycare this week. I have 2 friends that use them and said that its a dream. The owners and my friends say that once they start going they never want to leave. Not sure I like that but we will give it a whirl! They also do bathing (which I will continue doing) and nails(which I will let them do) I thought the socializing and getting out of the house would do him good. (I'm not a cat person either)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dory said:


> I don't really want to do the doggy daycare as there is only one that is close to me and that's the one where we just quit training LOL. The new trainer is almost an hour away from us, but if it works, I don't care about the drive.
> I am going to do the pay as you go dog play group that they have there on Wednesdays and see how that goes. It really stinks that we have friends who are cat people LOL.


I think this is a good plan... And if you like them, join the regular class. When Kodi was in Puppy K, we had a small class, but the dogs ranged from small to large. The small ones weren't necessarily the best match for Kodi at that stage either, as they were both feisty terrier pups. The first couple of sessions, I wasn't sure how it would go, but the trainer had me just stay still, in a corner. In the beginning, Kodi just hid behind my legs. By the second session, he was coming out to interact when puppies came close, but would quickly retreat if things got at all rough. By the third session, he was running out to the middle to engage with the other puppies. The trainer was very good at watching them all, and ehile she would not step in if the aggressor backed off when the other puppy complained, she would IMMEDIATELY step in if a puppy wouldn't back off when the other one told him to. Kodi learned quickly that he could tell the other puppies when enough was enough.

The only puppy he consistently avoided was a Lab puppy. The Lab puppy wasn't particularly persistent, but he slapped with his front paws, something Kodi dislikes to this day. The Lab puppy learned pretty soon that Kodi was no fun, because he always ran away, and he just found other puppies to play with.

I agree with you about avoiding daycare, at least for now. I think daycare can be fun if it is well supervised, and the pup is ALREADY well socialized, but I know dogs who have become very reactive as a result of being put in daycare as a MEANS of socialization. They learn to act aggressive first, to keep other dogs from approaching... Not what you want in a well-socialized dog!!!

The other problem I've seen with commercial day care situations, even ones that other people I know RAVE about, is that it is all about "crowd control". They keep dogs in groups according to who they think will get along, but you get some bullies in the crowd, no matter what. And there are little dogs who can be bullies too, so even if they separate them by size, it's not a sure thing. A common method of "crowd control" is to use squirt bottles in the face of dogs to break up arguments. The trouble is that both the aggressor and the victim get "punished" at the same time. What does this teach the victim? Worse, if it's an altercation with multiple dogs, especially if some are larger, they turn the hoseon them. I understand this to some extent. Most of the people who work in these facilities are young and like dogs, but have NO formal training in dog behavior. The owners have a responsibility to make sure their employees have a method of control that doesn't get them bitten. Very often the littlest, shyest, dogs get carried around all day, to keep them out of trouble. This may work from a safety standpoint, but does nothing in terms of socialization.

If I sound a bit jaded about daycare, it's because I've seen it from the inside. My son used to work at one. if I HAD to use a daycare, I would try very hard to find a small, well run in-home daycare with only a small number of well-behaved dogs.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Oh... One other problem... Forget about daycare if you want to keep your Hav in long coat. They will come home a matted mess from even good-natured play with bigger dogs!


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

krandall said:


> I think this is a good plan... And if you like them, join the regular class. When Kodi was in Puppy K, we had a small class, but the dogs ranged from small to large. The small ones weren't necessarily the best match for Kodi at that stage either, as they were both feisty terrier pups. The first couple of sessions, I wasn't sure how it would go, but the trainer had me just stay still, in a corner. In the beginning, Kodi just hid behind my legs. By the second session, he was coming out to interact when puppies came close, but would quickly retreat if things got at all rough. By the third session, he was running out to the middle to engage with the other puppies. The trainer was very good at watching them all, and ehile she would not step in if the aggressor backed off when the other puppy complained, she would IMMEDIATELY step in if a puppy wouldn't back off when the other one told him to. Kodi learned quickly that he could tell the other puppies when enough was enough.
> 
> The only puppy he consistently avoided was a Lab puppy. The Lab puppy wasn't particularly persistent, but he slapped with his front paws, something Kodi dislikes to this day. The Lab puppy learned pretty soon that Kodi was no fun, because he always ran away, and he just found other puppies to play with.
> 
> ...


I would not send Ted to a commercial doggy daycare. I research very carefully before Ted goes or does anything. I am making an appointment to see the daycare with Ted and I am not leaving him there that appointment. I live out in the country and so do the 2 woman who run it. They happen to have 2 Bichon among the dogs that they personally own and actually like to meet any dog first so that they can match them up with dogs that they know will be a good match. They do not accept dogs that they feel are not a good fit for their daycare. All small dogs excercise together at one time and the large dogs at another except for the owners lab. Apparently his fav is the small dogs to play with. Probably because his house mates are Bichons. The pens that they stay in are attached to the owners home and instead of wire are see-through so that the dogs don't feel confined. Many of their smaller dog guests get to stay in the ladies house with them.
I am hoping that this place will be a good match for Ted. I will be able to check out their grooming ability (I have seen the results on my friends Schnauzer) and meet the owners in person. It would be nice to have a place that we may be able to use for a night or 2 stay overnight a few times a year. It will also be nice for Ted to have a day to play. I trust my friend that has used this place for over 4 years. They spoil their dog rotten and I know when they say wanna go to" the Spa+ he sits at the door and waits til they go.


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

krandall said:


> Oh... One other problem... Forget about daycare if you want to keep your Hav in long coat. They will come home a matted mess from even good-natured play with bigger dogs!


This hasn't been my experience at all. I have taken both my boys to a 'commercial' boarding/day care facility. The longest time they were there was ten days. The last time, Finn was even blowing coat, and I requested that they brush him out daily, for a charge of course, which turned out they charged me an extra $1 per day!! They did get a couple of baths because, with the full coats, they did get dirty. But their coats were in quite good condition after ten days. This boarding facility allows them to play with the day care dogs during the day - there are two play groups - large dogs and small dogs - and before they accept the dogs for day care, they have to be taken in for a few hours of observation to be sure they will play nicely with the other dogs. My guys loved it, as far as I could tell. Of course, I would prefer to have an in-home situation with someone who boarded a few dogs their size and energy level, but haven't found one.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Sorry, I have to say something now even if I wasn't there. First off , puppy classes are for puppies only , that is no puppies older than eighteen weeks. Mixing puppies with adolescent dogs is a no no. Second. Playtime should not involve leashes. Leashes lead to pulling and frustration and tangled leashes can lead to real panic . Dogs are not to be suddenly all let loose at the same time. Two are released and closely monitored, a third is added and so on. At no point should things be let to get out of control . Constant feedback by the owners and trainer is critical. Breaks for training sessions are frequent and short. The fact that she wasn't watching what was going on is an indication that she really didn't have a clue. 
And what can I say about her trying to immitate Cesar. One of the main problems with flooding, is that it overwhelmes the dog and leads to fear. This is something to be avoided not encouraged. Fear/stress dimishes the learning ability of anything with a brainstem. Comparing him to another Hav shows her ignorance. No one's dog should be compared to anyone elses. "He will come around" ,is bull****. If things are constantly stressing him ,he will get worse not better. I feel sorry you couldn't have found something earlier, and most of all something much better than this session. Hopefully the new trainer will help. My main plea is for everyone to get your dog to classes early. , eight weeks to twelve weeks if possible. Research the trainer, visit a training session before if you can. It becomes so much harder if they miss this early opportunity. If you can't get to classes you have to find some dogs you know are healthy and friendly and this is only the dogs, don't forget to introduce hundreds of people in this time period too. And keep in mind socialization never ends. Happy training , keep us posted


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## Dory (Jan 4, 2012)

So we went to our consult and had our first puppy play class. The trainer is phenomenal! We moved at Quincy's speed and didn't force him to do anything during the play group. I watched him and treated/praised him lavishly when he interacted or showed interest in the other puppies in the group. He was okay with an 8 week old golden retriever puppy who wasn't very active and was just mellow. Didn't make friends per se, but I'm optimistic. The trainer said it was 50/50 on whether or not he would interact and recommended that we keep coming back. We're going to start the basic manners class next Tuesday and continue with the play groups on Wednesdays. She did keep us behind the expen, but it wasn't a small space. She kept it large enough and then watched him as the other puppies came up to investigate us. I sat with him and treated/praised when he showed interest in what the others were doing. As he got more and more comfortable, she would make the space a little smaller, but never overwhelmed him. Such a different experience from the "other" place.

We're also starting clicker training and he's already responding really well to that. She gave me some great advice about making him "work" for his meals with the Kong and also some ideas on how to make him more comfortable in the car. Needless to say, we'll both be eating some of our meals out in the car in the garage LOL

I am SO happy that I found this place (even though it is almost an hour away from us) and will happily make the drive twice a week for training and puppy play group. It just felt right, you know?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

That's awesome, Dory! Finding the RIGHT place makes all the difference!


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## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

Yay Dory and Quincy:whoo: So glad you have a trainer that you like. Because I live in the country I have to drive further than most too. Its all worth it for our babies though! So funny to think of the 2 of you pent up in the garage! Better now than when its really cold out.
My trainer is great too. Puppy agility was so much fun and she also told me that she would be happy to board him any time we go away. I went to the doggy day care and there was a couple things that I didnt like, so Ted will just have to stay in his pen mornings while I work. I didnt like any others in the area and he loves his trainer so that makes me quite comfortable if we go away the odd weekend! (which is usually about 2 a year!)


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## Dory (Jan 4, 2012)

krandall said:


> That's awesome, Dory! Finding the RIGHT place makes all the difference!


It sure does! Feels like a weight is lifted off my shoulders :whoo:


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## Dory (Jan 4, 2012)

lise said:


> Yay Dory and Quincy:whoo: So glad you have a trainer that you like. Because I live in the country I have to drive further than most too. Its all worth it for our babies though! So funny to think of the 2 of you pent up in the garage! Better now than when its really cold out.
> My trainer is great too. Puppy agility was so much fun and she also told me that she would be happy to board him any time we go away. I went to the doggy day care and there was a couple things that I didnt like, so Ted will just have to stay in his pen mornings while I work. I didnt like any others in the area and he loves his trainer so that makes me quite comfortable if we go away the odd weekend! (which is usually about 2 a year!)


Yeah, well, the whole rain thing is another story! LOL It's raining today and believe it or not, he's ringing the bells and telling me when he has to go. I think that's so I don't keep taking him out when he doesn't really have to LOL. He does have me trained, that's for sure! He's not really complaining about the rain this time, just goes and does what he has to and we go back in. It's a curly haired day for the two of us, that's for sure.

Re: boarding. I am so happy that our breeder has offered to take Q if we want to go away. We only take one real vacation every year and it's just for about 4 days, so we definitely wouldn't take advantage of her! At the moment, she's the only one, besides hubby that I trust to watch him if we're away for any period of time.
Anyway, very happy that we found the right fit. Now let's hope it's not too late for him!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

glad things are improving. Yep get rid of the food dish as much as possible. The more you feed by hand and kong, the better off you'll be at this stage.


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