# Flu



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

seems like our dogs are effected by a flu recently just like us. Human flu is really bad here and it's tough to dodge all the germs flying around. Here's two articles on the canine flu which also is more prevalent these days.

https://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/...ut-canine-flu-canine-influenza-type-h3n2-h3n8 Ian Dunbar


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https://144765258211%2Fh3n2-dog-dodds
 Jean Dodds


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I kept my dogs home from all the big summer trials that were held in conjunction with dog shows last summer... It just wasn't worth the risk to me. We also didn't hold any of our play dates last year. We had three pregnant bitches among people in the group, and between that and how the flu was spreading during the summer, we just didn't think it was worth the risk.

I still went to classes, and small, obedience/rally only trials (usually one ring, a bigger crating area, and areas where you can potty your dog away from the crowds) But even then, I am ALWAYS careful to keep my dogs crates covered when I'm not sitting right with them, make sure they only drink their own water, from their own bowls, and don't allow any sniffing other dogs, etc. ...And I never touch other people's dogs when I'm at a trial nor do I allow others to touch mine.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Just wondering if others are giving the flu vaccine? I understand the flu is a problem here on the peninsula. I received a email from a vet if your dog is sick do not bring them into the hospital. They will go to your car to exam the dog. Maybe that is the reason there was only one Havanese at the Golden Gate Kennel Club Dog Show last month? Still deciding whether to give the vaccine. Our vet didn't think it was necessary since we don't go to dog parks, training centers or board.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Heather's said:


> Just wondering if others are giving the flu vaccine? I understand the flu is a problem here on the peninsula. I received a email from a vet if your dog is sick do not bring them into the hospital. They will go to your car to exam the dog. Maybe that is the reason there was only one Havanese at the Golden Gate Kennel Club Dog Show last month? Still deciding whether to give the vaccine. Our vet didn't think it was necessary since we don't go to dog parks, training centers or board.


I won't give the (canine) flu vaccine. It has a high rate of adverse side effects, and is not that effective. Like the human flu, canine flu mutates constantly and there are different strains. The current vaccine is their "best guess" of what might be coming up.

For most healthy, adult but not geriatric dogs, the flu is no fun, but not life-threatening.

I prefer to protect my dogs as I described above... being cautious about where I take them and socializing. If there were an outbreak in our specific area, I would be even more cautious about exposure.

But most of the major outbreaks seem to be among show dogs, Like kids in school, you pack a lot of animals into a small amount of space, and they catch things from each other. I think exposure with pet dogs is MUCH easier to control.


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

I gave the flu vaccine once to my 14 year old Bichon because it was required for a boarding situation. She started having health problems soon after I returned from my trip, including kidney disease which she had no prior history of. Within four months after the vaccine she was gone. I will never know for sure if the vaccine had anything to do with her quick decline but I certainly won’t take that chance again with another dog.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Just received another email from where Scout had surgery. It said they are seeing flu cases, but mainly from the South bay. The dogs have been in doggie day care or boarding situations. I'm required to get the vaccine every year for work, but haven't because of the wrist surgery. This year seems to be a particularly bad year here for young and old.


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## StarrLhasa (Jun 6, 2010)

I decided to vaccinate all my dogs (4) late last month because Champ is 14 and Benny has Cushings Disease. They did not appear to have any after-effects after their first shots or after their second shots two weeks later.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

StarrLhasa said:


> I decided to vaccinate all my dogs (4) late last month because Champ is 14 and Benny has Cushings Disease. They did not appear to have any after-effects after their first shots or after their second shots two weeks later.


Everyone needs to run their own risk/benefit analysis. If the vaccine was more effective, or Havanese weren't such a vaccine sensitive breed, I'd consider it too. But unfortunately, vaccinosis rarely shows up right after any one jab. It is the repeated challenge to the immune system that can cause problems much later.

So while I TOTALLY respect people making an informed decision in either direction, the fact that any one dog (or small group of dogs) doesn't experience immediate adverse effects from a particular vaccine doesn't do anything to convince me it's the right gamble for my dogs.


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

I know that a breeder posted on Facebook that at the Atlanta show last week many Havanese were kept home over flu, so she was more easily able to win points toward finishing her dog. I like these admissions. She honestly wanted people to know that taking a risk and showing up helped her cause, kind of like the fall in price of Persian rugs after 911 that I took advantage of (I was bidding on eBay months afterwards and failed to make the political connection to my great deals), only maybe not as sociopathic.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Marni said:


> I know that a breeder posted on Facebook that at the Atlanta show last week many Havanese were kept home over flu, so she was more easily able to win points toward finishing her dog. I like these admissions. She honestly wanted people to know that taking a risk and showing up helped her cause, kind of like the fall in price of oriental rugs after 911 that I took advantage of, only maybe not as sociopathic.


Except I would NEVER risk my animals' health for points or ribbons. I kept all my dogs home from the big indoor show last summer.


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

krandall said:


> Except I would NEVER risk my animals' health for points or ribbons. I kept all my dogs home from the big indoor show last summer.


Yes, showing your dog to earn points when the competition is wiped out by the flu is bad, Karen. As I said.

Aside from risking your own dog's health, when things like this happen a championship means less. The notion is that nice top line and head or what not speak to good heart and kidneys or some such, because when an animal develops in utero things that can be seen on the outside and things growing on the inside happen at the same time. So it necessarily follows that when we value an aesthetically "correct" or "right" dog we are equating what we see with health. When dogs are judged well because all the best competition is not in the ring, then that system fails.:bump2:

The system also fails when dogs are bred to have faces more like a human baby's face. But that is another forum thread.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Marni said:


> Yes, showing your dog to earn points when the competition is wiped out by the flu is bad, Karen. As I said.
> 
> Aside from risking your own dog's health, when things like this happen a championship means less. The notion is that nice top line and head or what not speak to good heart and kidneys or some such, because when an animal develops in utero things that can be seen on the outside and things growing on the inside happen at the same time. So it necessarily follows that when we value an aesthetically "correct" or "right" dog we are equating what we see with health. When dogs are judged well because all the best competition is not in the ring, then that system fails.:bump2:
> 
> The system also fails when dogs are bred to have faces more like a human baby's face. But that is another forum thread.


I don't believe AT ALL that a pretty outside says ANYTHING about the internal health of any breed. There is absolutely no evidence to support that. ...and a quite a bit of evidence that they do NOT correlate. And while it's nice to finish a dog, I also don't have a ton of faith in the AKC show process. We have seen over the years that "breeding for what wins" in the show ring has absolutely ruined other breeds. That's why there are now "working line" retrievers and "show line" retrievers. And "Working line" Border Collies and "Show line" BC's. The list can go on and on with breeds ruined for their original purpose by the show ring.

So, think it is one of the duties of good breeders to hold the line and continue to breed TO THE STANDARD, NOT to what happens to be popular in the show ring at any point in time. Their other duty is to breed for healthy dogs by making sure all their breeding stock is health tested. That, and avoiding inbreeding as far as is possible, is what keeps a breed healthy. Not what the outside of the dog looks like in the show ring.


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

krandall said:


> I don't believe AT ALL that a pretty outside says ANYTHING about the internal health of any breed. There is absolutely no evidence to support that. ...and a quite a bit of evidence that they do NOT correlate. And while it's nice to finish a dog, I also don't have a ton of faith in the AKC show process.


You're the scientist, Karen. However, the notion is also that a dogs top line and tail set reflect on spine and that shoulders and hocks and what not are an effect on efficiency of movement. I am trying to make an argument for why buyers should buy from breeders who show in conformation rings. If the appearance and movement does not reflect on health and joint longevity, than there is no point to the expense and time involved.

And if nothing else, the AKC dog show gives a large number of dog lovers a chance to congregate. I like the ambiance, entering the venue is almost like entering a church for me. I am focusing on the love, not the misuse of dog breeding. Focusing on the love makes for a much happier life.0


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Marni said:


> You're the scientist, Karen. However, the notion is also that a dogs top line and tail set reflect on spine and that shoulders and hocks and what not are an effect on efficiency of movement.


They DO affect movement and outline, and those are defined for each breed in the standard. Most dogs, and certainly not lap dogs, do not need to have any "efficiency of movement". Look at the difference in movement between a Pekinese, a Toy Poodle, a Min Pin and a Havanese. (TOTALLY leaving out large breeds for this conversation) ALL these breeds are long-lived toy breeds. All have different top lines, way of moving and tail sets. But a Havanese that moved like a Min Pin should not be able to win. That doesn't affect the soundness of either breed.



Marni said:


> I am trying to make an argument for why buyers should buy from breeders who show in conformation rings. If the appearance and movement does not reflect on health and joint longevity, than there is no point to the expense and time involved.


At times I question what we are doing in the show ring, and if it has any benefit on dog breeding. It's better than the alternative (that being NO checks and balances) but it doesn't prove anything about the health of that dog or its long-term soundness. Only that it was (usually, though even that's not a given) sound on the day it was shown.

I think it also weeds out SOME (though CERTAINLY not all!) temperament flaws. A Havanese should not be shy, and a shy Havanese is not going to do well in the ring.

And, as you said, many people enjoy it! And that's the best reason I know to participate. It does require training, and any time spent training is, IMO, good for both the dog and the owner. It bothers me A LOT that many people feel they can't show their own dogs and win against the pro handlers. And, unfortunately, that IS often the case. The BEST owner handlers hold their own, but you have to be really determined to learn and handle even better than the pros to be "seen" when the judge knows most of the faces in the ring, and knows that they might be judged by them in a coming show.


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

krandall said:


> It bothers me A LOT that many people feel they can't show their own dogs and win against the pro handlers. And, unfortunately, that IS often the case. The BEST owner handlers hold their own, but you have to be really determined to learn and handle even better than the pros to be "seen" when the judge knows most of the faces in the ring, and knows that they might be judged by them in a coming show.


I just read a book published 25 years ago to help beginners to understand the show ring. It addressed why judges put handlers before owners this way - people like people who they believe are like themselves. Judges make money on the show circuit, so do handlers. Some judges have been handlers.

This can be compared to a person representing themselves in court against a lawyered up opponent, if you forget the fact that a lot of dog show judges were/are breeders.

Teachers who get to school extra early and whose kids score highly on tests that compare aren't necessarily loved by lazy colleagues, maybe this is why breeder/judge doesn't put the finer dog up before the handler's dog?

All I know is, if it was going on 25 years ago, it will probably be going on years from now.

And if breeders aren't themselves part of the problem, then why are they so much more likely to agree to co-ownership of a dog with someone who wants to foot the bill to have the pup professionally handled? It is a way for a beginner to get a foot in the door.

An owner handler has to be better than a professional handler to win. As an old woman with a bad back and a tendency to interrupt, finish other's sentences, and blurt out exactly what I think even if it reflects poorly on myself: the show ring is no place for me to wear a 10 year old Kasper suit and compete with an adorable, athletic and mannerly young person.


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

Marni said:


> An owner handler has to be better than a professional handler to win. As an old woman with a bad back and a tendency to interrupt, finish other's sentences, and blurt out exactly what I think even if it reflects poorly on myself: the show ring is no place for me to wear a 10 year old Kasper suit and compete with an adorable, athletic and mannerly young person.


I would argue that a handler's skill has no effect on the dog's merit, and that is what is (or should be) judged in the show ring. An owner-handler _shouldn't_ have to be better than a professional handler to win. Nino got his first points at my very first show by taking Winners over a dog on a handler then went on to win Best Puppy in the Toy group over 10 dogs, 5 of which were on professionals. My handling was doing my dog no favors, but it shouldn't have to.

Is it a handler's job to make the dog look better than it may be, or to show the dog at its best? Absolutely. But at the end of the day, the person at the end of the lead should have no effect on outcome so long as they can move a dog in a correct gait and stack it on a table.


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

KarMar said:


> But at the end of the day, the person at the end of the lead should have no effect on outcome so long as they can move a dog in a correct gait and stack it on a table.


In an ideal world and were it not human beings judging dogs. But, you are small and lithe, as is Connie Bannit whose dog won at Westminister. I bet the two of you have nice bouncy disks between all the bones of your spine as well. Some of us are pokey and plump and just aren't able to show a dog to it's advantage.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KarMar said:


> I would argue that a handler's skill has no effect on the dog's merit, and that is what is (or should be) judged in the show ring. An owner-handler _shouldn't_ have to be better than a professional handler to win. Nino got his first points at my very first show by taking Winners over a dog on a handler then went on to win Best Puppy in the Toy group over 10 dogs, 5 of which were on professionals. My handling was doing my dog no favors, but it shouldn't have to.
> 
> Is it a handler's job to make the dog look better than it may be, or to show the dog at its best? Absolutely. But at the end of the day, the person at the end of the lead should have no effect on outcome so long as they can move a dog in a correct gait and stack it on a table.


It shouldn't, but it often does. I was successful with Panda in the ring too, and we got points almost every time I showed her. But it's not as objective as all that.  The BIGGEST problem for us was finding majors without traveling long distances. I am just so much more interested in the performance stuff that the idea of traveling 5-8 hours to get to a conformation show is... just the thought of it... exhausting. 

I think it depends how her x-rays turn out, which will finish her OFA testing. If there is any chance I might want to breed her, I MIGHT make the effort to finish her in conformation. Though IMO, a dog with performance titles and all OFA testing would attract my attention even more than a conformation championship. And since she's well on her way to several of those titles, I'm not really worried about conformation.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Many, many years ago when I showed my Keeshond and Norwegian Elkhound, being a "known" handler made all the difference in how the judge considered the dog being shown. Unknown owners showing there dogs were rarely considered seriously. Politics with all capital letters was what counted. Inviting judges over to dinners, taking them out, wining and dining them, rubbing elbows socially. Ugh.

It would be wonderful if that has changed.


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