# Hugs and thoughts to Marj's Ricky



## ama0722

Tonight, Ricky wasn't feeling well and this was causing a nervous Mom so everyone pull together for a group hug for Ricky.:hug::grouphug: We all know how scary this can be when our otherwise happy little guys aren't themselves.

Please keep us posted Marj!

Amanda


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## Callalilly

By all means I will keep sweet little Ricky in my thoughts and sending positive vibes to Marj!! :hug:


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## marjrc

Thank you, ladies! That means a lot to me. 

I just got off the phone with an ER vet here and they recommend I bring Ricky in. I'm heading out now. It's about 20-30 mins. from here.

Ricky woke me up with his excessive panting. He has been shaking for an hour now and is very listless. His tail is between his legs and he won't move unless I move him. He did walk a tiny bit and went outside for a pee, but it was very slow going and I went with him to make sure he was o.k. He won't drink or eat a treat and I have no Benadryl and I'm freaking out just a little bit at this point!

have to run...... will keep you posted.


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## Callalilly

Ok, just drive safe and get that little guy to the doc. I'm sure all will be well, but all the same, my positive vibes will now be a prayer for you and Ricky.

Best to you Marj :hug:


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## Lina

Marj, I hope that everything is fine and that Ricky will feel better very soon! :grouphug:


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## ChristineL

Hey Marj,

Sorry to hear Rocky isn't well - let us know what the vet says. Sending positive vibes and thoughts


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## Leeann

Marj sending lots of good vibes to you and Ricky.
Wasnt Sammy sick last weekend?
Big Hugs & Kisses to you & your family


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## marjrc

Thank you. I appreciate your hugs! 

I just got back home. I was the only one in the waiting room and the doc saw us minutes after we got there which was nice. Ricky had a high fever and was lethargic. He'd moan/whine when I'd pick him up by the rib cage so we weren't sure why that was. Doc had blood taken and we waited while it was tested. Over an hour later, she saw us again and said one of the two of Ricky's liver enzymes (ALT) was very high. Norm is like 50 and his was over 1000. She's thinking it's hepatitis though it may not be. 

His white blood cells are high too and his fever was causing him to shake and twitch. She wanted to keep Ricky for at least 24 hrs. and I agreed. I can't help him here at home. They will have him on IV for fluids, anti-inflamm and antibiotic. If he responds well to that, then great. If not, they will have to wait until Monday and do an ultrasound on his liver and then maybe a biopsy if it's indicated. If he gets worse, they would have to consider Lepto or something else. No animal gets sick on Sundays, don't you know, so they don't have labs and technicians available then. Dumb! Ricky was feeling so out of it, that he didn't even budge or whimper when the doc took him away. That is NOT my Ricky!  

The vet told me I did a good thing bringing him in when I did (3:30a.m.) because it was very quiet and in spite of two emergencies keeping them busy for a little while, we were only there a couple of hours. She said that some days/nights the wait to even see the vet can be 4, 6, and 8 hours during holidays! It was depressing there when the two animals that came in both died while Ricky and I waited for the blood test results. 

I'm dead tired after 6 days of dealing with Sammy's diarrhea, vet visit, meds, Ricky's vaccine on Tues. (and no, she doesn't think him being sick now is related) among other things. I had all the energy in the world during the night with Ricky, but now I'm ready to plop myself in bed! Will post later......... 

Thank you Amanda, for being available when I came on here at 2 something. It was nice to chat 'live' with you and get some feedback. You're a sweetie!! ((hugs))


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## Thumper

Oh Marj! :grouphug: I am SO sad to hear he's sick  I really hope that he only continues to get better and heal from whatever is causing the fever. Poor baby :kiss: We are keeping you all in our thoughts and prayers and let us know if there are any updates.

hugs,
Kara


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## Leeann

Marj, we will continue to pray and send healing vibes to Ricky. I hope you can get some sleep. Please give Sammy some extra belly rubs, I'm sure he's missing Ricky as well.


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## Laurief

Oh Marj.... what sad news to wake up to - Poor little Ricky, at least you took him in and he is in the right place now where he can be monitored. the 4 L's are all sending kisses, hugs & prayers his way, and your way!! When do you think you will hear more?


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## Judy A

I'm so sorry to hear of Ricky's illness....it's so scary when our little furbabies get sick. How lucky you are to have an emergency vet like that. I'm not sure what I would do. I think there might be one over an hour from here.
I will keep Ricky lifted in prayer today.....keep us updated and we can only hope that things get better for him. Stay strong, Marj.
Judy


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## maryam187

Marj, wishing you and lil Ricky the best! I just sad a lil prayer for him, that it's just a little viral infection that he'll get over with soon!!!


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## Brady's mom

Marj,
Please keep us all posted. I hope Ricky feels better soon!


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## Missy

Ohh Marj, both Ricky and you are in my thoughts. I am so glad you took him in. Hopefully he will respond to the IV and the meds. Please, please keep us posted. hugs from me and the boys.


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## mintchip

:hug:Best wishes Marj and Ricky:hug::kiss::grouphug:


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## Beamer

Marj,

I'm sure Sammy will be fine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let us know ASAP!!!!!

Ryan


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## Janet Zee

*Marj*

Sending special prayers for Ricky and for you. Keep us posted.


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## Laurief

Ryan, you must be up too early - Ricky got sick, Sammy is just missing his brother!! - Silly boy!!:biggrin1:


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## Lynn

Oh Marj,
Iam so sorry, poor Ricky. This just can't be happening....everyone start saying a prayer for Ricky to get better ASAP, poor baby. I just woke up(it is 6:30 here and raining) and got on the forum to this....I am sooo sad now. I wish there was something I could do.

I was following the thread where the boys had diarreaha.... Missy had diarreaha so Iam reading all I can find on it. But one thing I did read, if they have diarreaha and even if they act like they still feel ok while having diarreaha, the diarreah can still....how do I say it.....cause them to have a low immune system, making it more likely they can pick up other stuff. She got it bad on a weekend and I didn't get her in to vet until Monday, she started on Fri, had it fri-mon., before we got meds.

Get some rest Marj, everyone is here for you. Let us know what the vet says....there is alot of knowledge to pull from here on the forum. We send our:hug::hug:wish we could be there to really hug you.


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## Paige

Marj :grouphug: I am so sorry Ricky is sick...I'm glad the doctor was able to see him so quickly...I know how scary this must be for you and your family...Me and the boys are sending lots of hugs and licks...to you and your family and give Sammy a belly rub for us..I am sure he is missing his buddy.


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## Laurief

Gosh - I wish there was something that we could do for you Marj, it must be very hard to have him away from you. Please keep us up to date when you can! Prayers are on the way!


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## pjewel

Oh my God Marj. What a shocking thing to hear when I got on this morning (later than usual). My prayers are with you both as you go through this scary time. Let us know how Ricky's doing. This is terrifiying! I'm sending positive thoughts in your direction.


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## Cheryl

Get some sleep Marj and keep us posted. You and Ricky are in our thoughts and prayers.


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## Alexa

I am so sorry to hear this! I hope everything turns out ok. Doesn't it seem like MORE kids and pets tend to get sick after opening hours and on the weekends? At least that what seems to happen in my family - whenever there is a real concern, it always seems to happen after hours!!

Alexa


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## ama0722

Marj,
I am so glad you went with knowing your boy and took him to the vet. You caught the fever by feeling his pads as well. It it so scary when these little guys are sick cause they can't tell us anything.

A few years ago, I had Isabelle in for her regular blood work and her liver enzymes came up very high as well. Of course with her being small, they said likely liver shunt and I was crushed. I had to call my husband to come pick me up cause I was sitting in the car balling my eyes out. Well a lot of test (two times worth!) and money later, the conclusion was Belle must have ate something in the backyard or in the trash that morning. Ever since then things have came out fine. So I pray for you here you hear the same news soon

Amanda


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## Jane

Marj,

You are Ricky are in my thoughts and prayers today! How scary to have to take him into ER...hopefully he and Sammy will be feeling better very soon. Please keep us all posted. And give them an extra hug from me....


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## dboudreau

:grouphug: My thoughts and prayers are with you Marj and Ricky. :hug: Get well soon Ricky!!!!!


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## KristinFusco

Oh Marj!

I am so sorry to hear about poor Ricky! I'll say a prayer that everything turns out ok!

~Kristin


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## MopTop Havanese

Oh Marj, I hope Ricky is feeling better today and that you were able to get some much needed rest~
Please keep us updated!


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## mckennasedona

Oh Marj, I'm so sorry to hear that Ricky is sick. All of us are keeping you both in our thoughts and prayers today and sending healing vibes to Ricky.
:grouphug::grouphug:


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## good buddy

Marj,

I just heard Ricky's sick.  I hope we hear he's doing much better today! Keep us posted. I know you must be heartsick. :grouphug: We're all hoping it's nothing serious and he can be back in your arms very soon!


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## Gableshavs

Marj,

We're sending prayers your way. Please let us know how your sweet baby is doing. I pray the vets caught this problem and are giving him perfect treatment.
Sending Hugs and Prayers,
Paula & the girls


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## Doggie Nut

Marj, I am saddened to hear that Ricky is not well.... I am praying for him and for you. I can only imagine how scary this is for you. Please get some rest and please keep us posted as you are able!


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## Thumper

I keep checking back to hear any updates on Ricky. Marj, I hope you are getting your rest and your babies are getting better. :kiss:

Kara


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## Laurief

Just checking in to hear something about Ricky - hope all is going well!!


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## Cheryl

I'm here too sending (((((HUGS))))) your way!


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## Havtahava

Oh Marj, I'm so sorry to read this. First Sammy's runs and now this. The fever and lethargy are a scary combo, so I feel for you.

I hope you are getting some rest and that Ricky is doing much, much better very soon.


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## Leeann

Checking back for any word, I hope you are resting Marj.


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## whitBmom

Oh Marj, I am so sorry to hear about Ricky.  I can only imagine how scary this must be. I am sending healing and peaceful vibes to Ricky, you and your family. You will be in my thoughts and prayers and I wish Ricky a speedy recovery. I wish I lived closer to you  Hugs to you :grouphug:


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## marjrc

You guys are sooooooooo sweet and caring! Thank you all so very much. I can feel those hugs and prayers working. Oh yes, and the puppy licks, too. 

I haven't heard anything yet and can't speak to a vet if I call. They are busy with their patients and they call once a day to keep us posted. I'm sure they'll call before the day is up. I was told 'no news, good news', but still. It would be nice to know more NOW ! sigh...... I was told not to go there unless it's visiting hours, but they dont' have visiting hours on Sunday - dumb! Today it was from 11-12, but I was totally wiped out and I'd left Ricky there at 6:00 so didn't think much would have changed by 11. 

I'm still in my pj's because I just got up and had my lunch. I didn't really sleep, but at least I lay in bed for a couple of hours. It's hard to think of Ricky there, in a crate somewhere, wondering why he's there and not at home with us.  Speaking of visiting hours, you also have to wonder if it's a good idea to go! Won't he be upset at us leaving after only a short visit? Oh dear. I don't know. We can't go now until Monday anyway, and that seems sooo far away....... but I'm anxiously awaiting a phone call with an update.

Leslie, how was it for you with Shadow? Were you present often and at any time?


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## juliav

Marj,

I am so sorry Ricky is sick.  It was a great decision on your part to take him to emergency vet. I am sending healing thought to Ricky and hope and pray that it is nothing serious.

Hugs,


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## Laurief

Oh Marj, you are right, no news is good news - so so far - it is good news!!!
I would think if Ricky was having any problems they would call you., but I dont understand why they will only call you once. When they call, maybe they will tellyou to come in and pick him up!!! We can only keep our fingers crossed, and pray that he gets thru this. Is there anything we can do from so far away???


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## Julie

Sorry to read about Ricky Marj.I'm very sorry I hadn't seen this earlier.My prayers and good thoughts go to you and Ricky for a speedy recovery and a quick diagnosis.I think you did the right thing by getting him to the vet quickly.:grouphug::angel::grouphug:


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## Leeann

Thanks for the check in Marj, I think we all keep checking back to see how you and Ricky are doing. We will continue to pray and send healing vibes for your baby to be home soon.


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## JASHavanese

Marj, we're sending prayers and hugs to you and Ricky. Please keep us updated. :grouphug:


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## JASHavanese

marjrc said:


> Won't he be upset at us leaving after only a short visit? Oh dear. I don't know. We can't go now until Monday anyway, and that seems sooo far away....... but I'm anxiously awaiting a phone call with an update.


Wow I stopped typing to answer the phone and see a new post from you and several replies. What a wonderful and loving community this is.
I hope you get a GREAT update telling you to come pick him up and he'll be fine.


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## casperkeep

My thoughts and prayers are with you both!!!!!!! Please keep us posted on how things are going!!!!! Jiillee sends him puppy hugs and kisssess!!!!!!


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## pjewel

I, like everyone else, keep coming back to see if there's an update. The waiting is so hard, but I agree, no news is good news. It's amazing, but when something like this happens you realize that we're all in this together, praying for one of our babies. Continued prayers from here for a quick recovery.


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## Thumper

:grouphug:

I hope they call you soon, and I'm glad you got some much needed rest. I'm sure he's probably getting lots of sleep, medicine tends to do that. We are sure keeping him in our prayers today! :kiss:

Gucci sends lots of slobbery licky-kisses!
Kara


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## Missy

I hope they call soon too. But I agree No news is good news. Thanks for checking in. Hugs.


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## good buddy

Just checking to see if you heard anything yet. My vet is the same way about only calling once a day. If you just can't stand waiting, go ahead and call. I'm sure they would understand. Just be reassured they are busy taking good care of your boy. I hope you hear good news soon!


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## MaddiesMom

Marj- Just saw the news on Ricky. I'm so sorry to hear this. I'm so glad you got him to the vet right away. Its just so horrible when our babies are sick. You just feel helpless. I'm saying prayers for you and Ricky and hope he is back in your arms healthy and happy soon. :grouphug:


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## irnfit

I just saw this and I'm so sorry Ricky is ill. Hope your next post is good news. :hug:


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## marjrc

Jan, you are so right. This forum is an amazing source of support, love and concern. Hubby told me to get right back into bed when I got home at 6:30 this morning, but I told him I just HAD to post a quick note here first. 

I just called them, figuring the worse they'll do is tell me they have no news yet. I was told a vet will call by this evening. I was worried it might not be until tomorrow! The last entry in his chart was at 4 p.m. and the receptionist could at least tell me that his fever was gone, but nothing else. We shall see.

The waiting and staying home without one of my pups is very challenging. I'd love to be there with him, but that won't necessarily help Ricky and there are no visiting hours on Sunday. What is it with Sunday anyway??! Ticks me off that there are so fewer services on Sunday. Don't dogs and humans get sick on Sundays?! Sheesh.

Unfortunately, the hospital doesn't allow personal items such as blankets, toys, leashes... More bureaucratic b.s. I suppose, but if it's something contagious then I guess it puts some animals there at risk. sigh... It does make sense, but still. 

My shoulders, neck and back are hurting like crazy today and hadn't been in a few weeks, but it's no wonder. Must be the stress, ya think? :suspicious:

You guys are the best!!!!! :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

We're ordering out for supper and I'd love to get the family playing some cards or board game tonight, or at least watch a movie. I need the distraction!


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## LuvMyHavanese

:grouphug:Oh Marj, i just found this thread & i am so sorry to hear about Ricky. I pray all is ok. I really do know how you feel. A distraction will be good so you dont just keep thinking about it but its hard not to. This saddens me so much to hear this. We all get to know each other & our dogs thru this great & caring forum. I feel we all really care deeply about each others dogs(and each other). I am glad we are all here for each other when we have problems.

Please keep us posted


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## Lynn

*The last entry in his chart was at 4 p.m. and the receptionist could at least tell me that his fever was gone, but nothing else. We shall see. FROM MARJ*

Marj, I think the fact that his fever is gone, is good news!!! Try to take care of yourself, Ricky is going to need you....he will be home before you know it. It is going to be ok!


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## Kathy

Marj,
How scary, but I agree, you for sure did the right thing by taking him in. I wonder if he could have been biten by a spider or something. Since it hurt him to be picked up, did they check for any type of intestinal blockage? Had he been vomiting or having the runs? Poor baby and poor mommy, I know you are worried. I am sending strong positive thoughts your way. Keep us posted.


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## Missy

just checking back - Yeah his fever is gone!!!! take care of yourself and your family tonight Marj.


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## Leeann

Great news that the fever is gone Marj, hope the vet has even better news when he calls. Big Hugs


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## Julie

I was just checking back on Ricky's condition.Sounds like it is a good sign that his fever is gone.Thanks for the update Marj!Hang in there---we are thinking and sending prayers way up north from here!:hug:
Quincy sends an ear lickie!:ear:


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## Lina

Just checking in to see how Ricky is doing! I'm glad that his fever is gone and I'm sure that he will only get better! My thoughts are with you Marj! :hug:


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## JanB

Marj, I just logged on for the day and saw the news. Lots of healing vibes and a prayer are being sent your way! I hope he's well and back home soon!


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## ama0722

Marj,
I am glad the fever has broken and maybe that is a sign for good health to come.


Get well Ricky, Sammy needs you back to play with!

Amanda


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## Sissygirl

Marj,

So sorry to hear about Ricky. I hope his fever coming down is a good sign.

Praying for you and Ricky.


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## marjrc

I got a call from the vet around 6 and he said Ricky's fever is gone and he's not as lethargic. He ate a little bit and is moving around well. They did another liver bloodtest and the ALT (or is it ALP??) is still very high, at 1200 so there is defniitely something going on. He suspects a bacterial infection or that Ricky got into something toxic, though I can't for the life of me think what it could be.

"Funny" that Sammy had the runs for 4 days+ and threw up bile 3 times in two days though, no ?? Hmmmm....... I sure wish I knew what it might be IF it's at all related! Food is good, I'm as sure as I can be. I have a-hole neighbors that dont' like my cat, Shadow, and made a couple of 'cracks' about Ricky being a barker, but could their two teen boys even think of doing something to harm my pets?? I can't imagine it at all.

So........ back to square one as to what it could be, but it seems to be under control now. :whoo: They'll call me tomorrow morning to say whether we can get him or if he should stay another day. They'll give us antibiotics to give him at home and he recommends another blood test in a week or so. IF it's still high, then they'll do the ultrasound.

I just rediscovered this thread: http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=581&highlight=liver+enzyme that "blues166" started and I want to thank Jeanne, Maddiesmom, for the wonderful advice and information she shared with us then. Thank you!!! I have reread the posts from you and from Kimberly in that thread and it confirms everything the vets have been telling us, even down to the med'n we'd need, Denosyl.

We shall see what tomorrow brings, but I'm hopeful.


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## SMARTY

Marg' I'm so sorry to hear about Ricky, hopefully everything is on the mend now with the fever being gone. Keep us posted.


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## Paige

Marj...I am so glad to hear that Ricky's fever is down and atleast he is eating alittle something....I don't want to even think that someone could of done something to harm Ricky...It just makes me sick...

I have been thinking of him and your family all day...I'm so glad you are such a good fur mom and caught it so quickly...Please keep up posted..:hug::kiss::grouphug:


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## ama0722

Marj,
It is scary what these little guys can get into- garbage, plants, fertilizers, etc. I hope your neighbor wouldn't do anything like that.

Hopefully he is back in your arms tomorrow and resting.

Amanda


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## dboudreau

Marj, 

I just had a thought, have you started a new bag of food lately? Could the two problems be related some how and both dogs are dealing with it differently? Is Sammy feeling better? :hug:


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## Lynn

Marj,

That sounds like really good news from the vet...so glad Ricky is doing better tonight. :whoo::whoo:

Maybe you should look around for something the boys could have gotten in to. Someone told me an old bone or chew can get bacterial in it.... I was going to check my chews ...I have a lot of old chews around. I wonder if I should throw them away? 

Sure is a good thing you took Ricky to the vet when you did, poor baby.

Hope you can sleep tonight, Ricky is going to be better soon.


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## judith

marj, i am glad things are looking better. all our thoughts and prayers are working.


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## Leslie

marjrc said:


> Leslie, how was it for you with Shadow? Were you present often and at any time?


Marj,

First of all, I didn't even know about poor Ricky until I met Amanda today. I'm so sorry to hear he's sick.

I know how you're feeling about going to see him. Shadow was so attached to me, that it was hard to know what to do. When I was there w/her, she was good. The hospital was more than gracious and allowed me to come and sit w/her even when it wasn't visiting hours. However, after two days of them having to deal w/her being so upset for so long after I left, they asked me to seriously consider limiting my visiting time. They felt her extreme reaction to my leaving was detrimental to her recovery. I did stay away but, it was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do.

I will pray that Ricky is well enough to come home w/you tomorrow so that you don't have to deal w/that difficult decision.

My biggest hugs to you!


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## Lina

Marj, I hope that his liver test will go back to normal in a week. Hopefully whatever it is will clear out of his system very soon!


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## ChristineL

Hey Marj,

Just checking in to see how Ricky is doing - I'm glad to hear his fever has broken and he was a little better - I hope they find out what is wrong so they can treat him and send him home soon


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## Lo01

Marj,
My family's thoughts and prayers are with you and yours. I hope his transaminases ultimately start heading in the right direction.

Warmest regards,
*'Lo *(and Hank)


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## DAJsMom

So sorry Ricky is sick! We'll pray he feels better soon Marj!


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## Cheryl

Marj--this morning you said the ALT was elevated and tonight you were wondering if it was ALP. Here is the difference....

ALP - ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE - this enzyme is found in many different tissues within the body, primarily liver, bone, intestines, and kidneys. Increased ALP levels can be seen with liver disease and gallbladder disorders. In addition, drugs such as corticosteroids and phenobarbital can cause increased ALP levels. Very high ALP levels can be seen in dogs with adrenal gland disease as well.

ALT - ALANINE AMINOTRANSFERASE - This enzyme is considered to be liver specific in the dog. Increased levels of ALT are an indicator of damage to liver cells, as this enzyme is contained within the liver cell itself. When the cell is injured, the enzyme is released into the bloodstream and the increased level can be measured.

It is not unusual in the case of infection (which the fever and the elevated white count point to) in the liver for the ALT to skyrocket. And it takes awhile to come back down. 

I hope that he comes home tomorrow and you get to the bottom of this.


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## whitBmom

Marj I am happy to hear Ricky is on the mend. Thank goodness his fever broke. I hope it wasn't something they ate. Poor puppies  You and your family have been through so much this past week, I wish Ricky a speedy recovery and hope the the vets can get down to the bottom of this soon. Hugs to you Marj :grouphug:


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## Julie

Thanks for the update Marj.This must be very hard for you.

Here in our town a lady laced a hamburger patty(raw)with anti-freeze and fed it to a neighbors dog she hated.......it killed the dog and she got in deep trouble.The dog was a beautiful show dog named Benjamin and was a sheltie.It has been a long time ago,but you never know about people.This lady was very prominent in town and sold insurance.I think you should just double check closely your yard.It may turn up some clues as to what they got into...I sure hope it wasn't your neighbors.


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## Missy

Marj, thanks for keeping us posted. Sounds like good news from the vet. I continuet to send healing vibes to ricky- I hope he comes home soon.


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## irnfit

Glad to hear that Ricky is improving. These guys can get into anything. My two have been eating leaves - now that they are finally falling off the trees, they are eating them.


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## JASHavanese

Great news that his fever is gone!! Ricky, you've got to pull through this for your Mommy!


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## good buddy

It sounds like he's doing better. No fever and eating too! *Phew! That's good news to hear tonight! Since Sammy was so sick last week and now this, yeah you had better walk the yard and seach through the house just to double check and see if you can find a clue! Did they have any new type of food? Maybe one of your neighbors sprayed their weeds and their was drift? Gee, it would be nice to have some answers. I sure hope your neighbors didn't do anything mean. That's awful!


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang

Marj,

I just saw this thread and I'm so sorry to hear that Ricky is at the hospital! I hope he'll be okay and back home with you soon. 

He'll be in my thoughts all night. The fur kids here send :grouphug: to you and your little guy. 

Wanda


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## Laurief

Marj, I just got back and saw the news- I am so glad to hear that the fever is down and he is doing somewhat better. I am sure it a big relief to you and maybe you will get some sleep tonight. I will say a prayer before bed tonight that Ricky is back home with you where he belongs tomorrow, feeling better and all is well!


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## MaddiesMom

Marj- I'm so glad to hear Ricky is eating some and his fever is gone. Waiting is *so* darn hard. No wonder you've got back and neck aches and pains from the stress. If Sammy is still having tummy troubles, you might also ask the vet if he should run a blood test on him, just to be safe in case it is a toxin in their environment.

If it _is_ a toxin, Marj- Dogs can regenerate their liver once the toxin is withdrawn. The liver is an amazing organ that way. We're all keeping you and Ricky in our prayers and hope he's home with you tomorrow!:grouphug:


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## juliav

Marj,

It's great to hear that Ricky is doing better, no more fever and he is eating. Bugsy and I are sending healing thoughts for Ricky speedy recovery and return home. 

Thanks for keeping us posted.


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## maryam187

Marj, glad to read Ricky's doing much better...


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## Brady's mom

Marj,
So glad to hear that Ricky is feeling a little better. I hope you are okay too. Thanks for keeping us all posted. I will be thinking of you and hoping that he comes home tomorrow.


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## Doggie Nut

Wonderful news Marj! I will believe that he will continue to progress right on into RLH with Sammy!:biggrin1:


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## Kathy

Cheryl said:


> Marj--
> It is not unusual in the case of infection (which the fever and the elevated white count point to) in the liver for the ALT to skyrocket. And it takes awhile to come back down.
> 
> I hope that he comes home tomorrow and you get to the bottom of this.


Marj,
I agree with Cheryl. It sounds more like he has an infection and the antibiotics are going to cure him. That is my positive thought and the direction I want to belive in. Hang in there, I know you are worried. We are all praying for you and Ricky.


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## havanesebyha

Marj, I just read this thread about Ricky being sick and in the ER vet. I am so sorry to hear this, but it sounds like he's doing so much better since yesterday. I am so glad you went with your motherly instict and rushed him into the vet. Being Sammy was sick, I would think that Ricky either got it worse or reacted differently than Sammy. I am praying for his quick recovery and he is back home in your arms soon. I bet he misses his family as much as you all miss him! Hugs & kisses!!!


----------



## Leeann

Marg, you & Ricky were the first thing on my mind this morning. We are hoping to hear that Ricky will get to come home today.


----------



## Judy A

Had to check this AM to see if there was any more news on Ricky...glad to hear that he is doing better. They sure can scare us, can't they?


----------



## Gableshavs

We will keep you guys in our prayers until Ricky comes home. I'm relieved to see he's improved, that's really good news.
Paula & the girls


----------



## Thumper

I'm happy to hear the good report! I hope he continues back to 100% feeling himself! :kiss:

Kara


----------



## Julie

was just checking back for any additional news:hug:


----------



## Laurief

Marj, hope you were able to get some sleep last night!! And hopefully another good nights sleep helped Ricky as well? How is Sammy handling being alone? Is he walking around looking for his brother? You guys sure have been thru the ringer this weekend!! I hope to hear good news today, please let us all know, I know there are lots of prayers out there for your little guy!


----------



## Missy

just checking in Marj.


----------



## irnfit

Hang in there, Marj. Hopefully Ricky will be home tomorrow.


----------



## Krimmyk

marjrc said:


> Jan, you are so right. This forum is an amazing source of support, love and concern. Hubby told me to get right back into bed when I got home at 6:30 this morning, but I told him I just HAD to post a quick note here first.
> 
> I just called them, figuring the worse they'll do is tell me they have no news yet. I was told a vet will call by this evening. I was worried it might not be until tomorrow! The last entry in his chart was at 4 p.m. and the receptionist could at least tell me that his fever was gone, but nothing else. We shall see.
> 
> The waiting and staying home without one of my pups is very challenging. I'd love to be there with him, but that won't necessarily help Ricky and there are no visiting hours on Sunday. What is it with Sunday anyway??! Ticks me off that there are so fewer services on Sunday. Don't dogs and humans get sick on Sundays?! Sheesh.
> 
> Unfortunately, the hospital doesn't allow personal items such as blankets, toys, leashes... More bureaucratic b.s. I suppose, but if it's something contagious then I guess it puts some animals there at risk. sigh... It does make sense, but still.
> 
> My shoulders, neck and back are hurting like crazy today and hadn't been in a few weeks, but it's no wonder. Must be the stress, ya think? :suspicious:
> 
> You guys are the best!!!!! :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:
> 
> We're ordering out for supper and I'd love to get the family playing some cards or board game tonight, or at least watch a movie. I need the distraction!


I just read about Ricky. :grouphug: You have out prayers and positive thoughts with you and your poochie till he is better.


----------



## Leslie

Just checking to see if we knew anymore about Ricky's condition. Marj, you're both still in my prayers.


----------



## Paige

Just checking in to hear some more good news about Ricky..


----------



## juliav

Hi Marj,

Just popping in to see how Ricky is doing and sending some healing thoughts his way.


----------



## Julie

just checking.......:angel:hope you get great news soon....:angel:


----------



## mckennasedona

Popping in to see if there is any news on Ricky yet. We're keeping you in our thoughts and hoping he's doing better and will be home soon.


----------



## JASHavanese

Came in to see how Ricky is doing. I hope you get great news about him.


----------



## Havtahava

Marj, I'm glad to read that the fever is gone and Ricky is a bit more active and eating. That's a huge improvement!

I'm hoping you are doing OK and trying not to worry too much. {{{Hugs to you}}}


----------



## maryam187

Just checking in for some Ricky news...


----------



## Laurief

Just checking in for news - hope you are on your way to the vet to pick him up. That would be good news - come on Ricky , keep getting better!!!


----------



## Sissygirl

Hope Ricky is doing much better today and he gets to come home soon.


----------



## Leeann

Checking in also, I too hope you are either resting or on your way to pick Ricky up.


----------



## Suuske747

you and ricky are in our thoughts!!!


----------



## MaddiesMom

Also checking in to see how Ricky is doing. I'm hoping the news today is good and he is on his way home. We have you and Ricky in our thoughts and prayers.


----------



## ruthann

Annabelle is sending unending kisses to Ricky. Prayers are flowing from here and all the Hav fur babies moms.


----------



## Lynn

:hug::hug::hug:Marj,
we are checking in also to see how Ricky is doing....hope all is well. You are probably sleeping, but I hope you post something sooon. 

sending lots of :hug::hug::hug:

Lynn
Casper and Missy


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

Just wanting to see how Ricky is doing. Hope all is well.:hug:


----------



## Paige

Remember what his doctor said...No new is good news...right Marj???..


----------



## Laurief

Yea, but if we are dying for news - I cant imagine what Marj must be feeldng. Hope you are doing ok marj!!


----------



## maryam187

Yes, Marj hope you are doing OK and are near your little baby Ricky now...


----------



## Julie

I am checking back again on Ricky.Hope you heard something Marj and are going to go get him.Praying for a good outcome-------:angel::hug:


----------



## SMARTY

Smarty and I just got home and we wanted to check on Ricky first thing, I do hope all is well or at least better. Please post and let us know.


----------



## Lina

Marj, how is Ricky today? Just checking in.


----------



## Cheryl

We are trying to think positive--that no news is good news. Let us know any updates when you can. We are thinking of you.


----------



## mckennasedona

Marj, checking to see if you've spoken with the vet today. I hope Ricky is on the mend. Hugs to all of you.....


----------



## Laurief

Amanda, have you hear from Marj at all????? We are just dying for some info!


----------



## Thumper

I'm checking in too!

Any updates?

XOXO,
Kara


----------



## havanesebyha

Marj, just checking in to see how Ricky is doing and it looks like no news is good news and hopefully you are on your way to pick up your sweet darling. Big Hugs and kisses to you both.


----------



## Leeann

Marj, we are all thinking of you and keep checking how things are going. Sending lots of prayers and hugs your way.


----------



## marjrc

I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to come on here sooner. I know you were all waiting for an update so here it is.... better late than never.

*Ricky's home now! *Yaaaaaaaaaaay!!! :whoo: We picked him up around 2:00 and he was ecstatic to see us. Oh, I was teary eyed, but totally overjoyed at having him in my arms again. He was all over Ralph and I.

I asked that all the notes, papers, etc... get faxed to my vet and in a week, we'll do another bloodtest and see how things are. Ricky's been snoozing since we got here. He's one pooped Hav.

I got a call this morning, around noon, saying Ricky was good to go, doing well and that I would get a call soon for an appt. to pick him up. When they didn't call after an hour, I called them. I couldnt' wait! lol We got things all settled and picked him up - finally!

He's now on Clavamox, an antibiotic to help him fight the infection. He didn't suffer any damage his liver. It was most likely a bacterial hepatitis or he had taken something toxic and his liver was reacting to it. I can't imagine that he'd have gotten anything toxic or rotten, but you never know I suppose! Maybe he caught some bug while at the vets' on Tues for his shots?! There might be something outside, though I didn't see anything. Did the boys eat funny mushrooms?? I know it couldn't have been the neighbors' doing. That was just paranoia talking. lol

Sammy was all over Ricky when we walked in, sniffing him everywhere and bouncing alongside him. It was tooooo cute! 

I took a short nap before dinner with my boys alongside me and it helped me get rid of my monstrous headache and jaw pain. Tension, ya think? lol

Everyone's fed and happy and Ricky is back to snoozing. I know I've thanked you many times already, but I'll say it again - thank you all so very much for your concern and your show of support!!! Sending back that love and all those (((hugs))) we got. Kara, you can give Guccigirl some of those sloppy, wet kisses she sent over. I'm sure they helped.


----------



## Paige

YEAH....RICKY'S HOME:drum::hug::kiss::grouphug::rockon::thumb::cheer2::clap2::whoo:


----------



## Lilysplash I

So happy to hear that Ricky is home! I tensed up reading your having to go to the vet and skipped to the last page to see if you had answers yet. When one of Hav's hurt, we all hurt and hope and pray for the best. Glad to hear of a happy homecoming!


----------



## Leeann

Yea Ricky is HOME!!!

Marj, we are all soooo happy to hear this news. Nothing better than having your baby back in your arms. We will continue to send healing vibes for Ricky to be back to 100% and RLH with Sammy again. Big hugs to you & your family.


----------



## ama0722

Awesome news Marj!!! Glad to hear he is back home already and back to playing with Sammy!

Amanda


----------



## Havtahava

Marj, I'm so glad to read your good news. I hope he and Sammy both have a really good, HEALTHY week at home!


----------



## Laurief

Oh, Marj, I am so happy!!! I have been on ALL day, checking every hour, and was hoping that you were picking him up!! What a rough weekend for you, and I am so glad that everything is getting better!! You are such a good Mommy & I am glad we could give you some support, even if it is just via online. 
Laurie


----------



## Missy

Yeah Ricky is home!!!! I have kept checking back as well. sound like he just got something or got into something! they are dogs after all-- I am so happy he is home and you got to take a nap!!! let us know what next weeks blood tests say-- but I'm sure hoping he is all better. hugs and more sloppy kisses.


----------



## Lynn

Iam so glad to here Ricky is home!! And feeling much better. Now I hope you feel better too Marj, might need some extra rest.:kiss::hug:


----------



## havaluv

Yay! I'm so glad Ricky is home and doing better. I'll still send up some prayers for him and you too!!! Try to get some rest now that the crisis is over. Blessings to you and your family!!!!


----------



## dboudreau

Yippy Hurray!!!!!!! Ricky is home :hug: :hug: & :kiss: from me & Sam. Hope you all have a good night sleep tonight.


----------



## irnfit

So glad Ricky is home where he belongs. I know your headache is gone now. Hugs to you all.


----------



## mintchip

YEAH!!!!:whoo:


----------



## Lina

Marj I am so happy that Ricky is safe and home and well!!! :whoo:


----------



## Julie

:clap2: :clap2: :clap2: Yippee!!!!!!:clap2: :clap2::clap2:
So glad he is back home and on the mend!:hug:

Now take care of yourself too Marj!:grouphug:


----------



## mckennasedona

Marj, That is just the BEST news we could have hoped for. Your Ricky is HOME!! I'm so happy for you.

Hugs from us!


----------



## judith

marj, i am so happy for you and your family.


----------



## Sissygirl

Marj,

So glad Ricky is home - we all worry when one of our little ones doesn't feel well.

Sending healing prayers your way.


----------



## Jane

Yea!!! I'm so glad Ricky is home, Marj!! Lots of kisses for him!


----------



## Brady's mom

Marj,
I am so happy to hear that Ricky is home! I hope you catch up on some much needed sleep now!


----------



## maryam187

Marj, glad to see Ricky's home an doing OK!!! What great news for Sunday night, YAY!


----------



## MaddiesMom

Yay!! I'm so glad Ricky is home and feeling better! This is wonderful news! :clap2::cheer2: Now while Ricky is recuperating, you get some well-deserved rest, Marj!


----------



## marjrc

You are all so sweet!!! 

Here's a little something. Hubby took a couple of pics a few minutes ago .... as you can see, Ricky is still very sleepy.


----------



## ama0722

Marj,
Very sweet to see him back get in love in his mommy's arms. And ofcourse Sammy can't be left out!

Amanda


----------



## judith

.marj, it is nice to three happy relaxed faces, i am so glad all turned out well


----------



## Beamer

Marj! Ricky's lookin good!! Glad he is back home all better!!


----------



## juliav

Marj,

I am so glad that Ricky is home with you, where he belongs and is recovering nicely. 
I love the pictures Ricky may be sleepy, but you look so very happy.


----------



## Paige

Marj...I'm sure he is so glad to be back at home and in mommy's arms...and you look very happy..


----------



## Lina

Marj, Ricky looks happy (though tired) to be in your arms! I love how Sammy also just had to be in the picture!


----------



## whitBmom

Oh Marj, I am so happy for you  What relief. I was so worried and the crazy weekend that this has been for me, your post really made my day - I am so relieved Ricky is okay :cheer2: I am so happy Ricky is on the mend now


----------



## good buddy

Whoo hooo!! arty::clap2: It's so good to see Ricky home with his family! Your pictures says it all! The family is complete once again! Prayers here that his next test results come out fine!


----------



## Kathy

Marj,
Just was checking in to see if any news. I am sooooooooo happy and relieved to read he is home and by your side again.


----------



## DAJsMom

So glad to hear he's home and feeling better!


----------



## Pamela-SB

So glad to hear Ricky is better and you have every one back together at home...hugs and puppy kisses to all 

Pamela


----------



## Doggie Nut

What great news to go to bed on! I know you are tickled "blue"!


----------



## Callalilly

:dance:YIPPEE!!!!!:dance:

So happy for you - I know what a relief it is to have your little boy back home where he belongs! Your beautiful :biggrin1: said exactly how you feel.

Congrats ~


----------



## Amy R.

Marj, I've just read this thread. What a saga!! So traumatic. I am thrilled for you that Ricky is better, and back home with you again!! Sending warm Hav hugs!


----------



## Laurief

Marj, he may look sleepy but he looks so happy to be in Mommy's arms!! And your smile tells it all!! I am very relieved for you.


----------



## Havtahava

Oh, the boys look so glad to be snuggling close to you!


----------



## Leeann

Marj, you look so happy to have your boy home and Ricky looks like all he wants to do is snuggle with his mommy. I’m so glad he is home and you are both getting some rest.


----------



## Thumper

OH! I'm SOOOO glad he's home!!!!!!! 

hugs and MORE sloppy, wet Gucci kisses!!!!!!! :kiss:

Kara


----------



## Missy

Hows Ricky doing today?


----------



## Laurief

How are the troops today Marj??


----------



## Julie

Great to see a smile on your face Marj--and the boys snuggled up to you.With love like that----Ricky will be all better soon.......:hug:


----------



## SMARTY

Great news. You will probably never know what he got into. My bet would be the vet's office. But those things cannot be helped. You rest and snuggle up with your babies.


----------



## JASHavanese

Paige said:


> YEAH....RICKY'S HOME:drum:COLOR]




What Paige said!!!!!!!!!!!! :clap2::clap2::clap2:


----------



## mckennasedona

Awww Marj, great photos of you with your babies. Ricky is right where he should be. Is he begining to feel better?


----------



## Lynn

Marj,

Such a nice picture of you and your boys! I am sure glad everyone is better today.


----------



## marjrc

Thank you everyone!!!!! I was definitely VERY happy to have Ricky home, by our side. Ralph was so glad too. We'd been worrying like crazy. 

Yup, Ricky was exhausted and slept the whole day yesterday and all night long. Poor Sammy tried to get Ricky to play a few times, but Ricky was just too pooped! It was so cute that it was almost sad, you know? Sammy would push on Ricky's head, nudge him, even humped him a time or two LOL ! Ricky would just move to another spot so he could be left alone.  

Ricky wanted to sleep with Lina, and he stayed and slept there all night and was fine this a.m. He's back to his normal, playful, barky and revolving patio door self! :bounce: :laugh: 

My teen boys are annoyed, but tough !!


----------



## Janet Zee

Bacci and I are so glad all is well once again. Sending warm belly rubs to Ricky & Sammy too!!!


----------



## Laurief

YAYOO Ricky is back to his old self!!! I am so glad to hear that!! Now you can relax Marj, have a glass of wine tonight & snuggle!


----------



## Beamer

1 glass of wine?? There is no such thing as 1 glass in Quebec! 

Marj, 1 bottle should do it! I'm sure R&S would agree! 

Ryan


----------



## casperkeep

Yeah!!!!!!! I am so glad to hear that Ricky is home with you and your family!!! Please keep us posted on how things are going for him!!!! Hugs to you all!!!!


----------



## Paige

Yeah...I am so glad Ricky is back to his old self...I guess he get's away with the barking today..Marj..:wink:


----------



## abuelashavanese

Marj,

We are so glad Ricky is home and recovering well. We hope everyone gets back to full speed soon. Please give Ricky a big kiss for us!


----------



## Julie

WHOO!:whoo:WHOO!:whoo:WHOO!:whoo:
Great news Marj!Sammy has his playmate back today!:clap2:


----------



## havanesebyha

Marj, what a wonderful picture and Ricky looks like he's so happy to be home! Glad to hear he's back to his playful self today!


----------



## marjrc

Beamer said:


> 1 glass of wine?? There is no such thing as 1 glass in Quebec!
> Marj, 1 bottle should do it! I'm sure R&S would agree! Ryan


What?? Whatever are you talking about Ryan?

We French Cdns. know how to enjoy only one glass of vino.

o.k....... well...... maybe a touch more than one glass ..... LOL I'll definitely enjoy some with my dinner tonight since last night, I had too much of a headache to think about wine! :hungry: :tea: Anyone care to join me?


----------



## Laurief

Marj - I will tip my glass of wine tonight to you and Ricky & the family - so I will be joining you, in spirit!! I am just so relieved for you!


----------



## Missy

Yeah Marj. Ricky is back to normal!!! one glass of wine- but no one said how big it could be!!!!


----------



## juliav

YEAH!!!

Great to hear that Ricky is his old playful self. :biggrin1:


----------



## Laurief

*Here's to Ricky!!*

OK Marj, it may only be 4:30 here, but I always have my glass of wine while making dinner - oh no - didnt the galloping gourmet do the same thing -- oh well, I am (in spirit) tipping my glass to you for being such a good Mommy , and to Ricky for being such a good patient! And we send Sammy kisses!
Laurie


----------



## JanB

I just caught up with the news and am so glad that Ricky is home and well! I love the picture of him snuggling with you  I hope all of you are caught up on your rest and sleep!


----------



## Brady's mom

Marj,
So glad to hear he is feeling better! Yeah Ricky


----------



## pjewel

Oh thank goodness he's home and feeling better. You had to be terrified. I know we all were for you. Just love him up. Whew!


----------



## The Fussy Puppy Gang

:whoo::llama::hug::hug:Happy to see you're home, Ricky!:hug::hug::llama::whoo:

Hope all is well and that mean stomach bug is gone quickly.

Love the photos, Marj. Ricky looks tired and content to be in your arms, and you look positively ecstatic!

Wanda


----------



## whitBmom

Yeah, Ricky is home  I am very happy he is feeling better. Pretty soon he will be back to his old self


----------



## lfung5

Marj,
Sorry I missed this thread. I am in the middle of searching for a house and moving. I am glad to see Ricky is feeling better. I saw the snow pictures, so I guess he is back to himself again!


----------



## marjrc

Laurief said:


> OK Marj, it may only be 4:30 here, but I always have my glass of wine while making dinner - oh no - didnt the galloping gourmet do the same thing -- oh well, I am (in spirit) tipping my glass to you for being such a good Mommy , and to Ricky for being such a good patient! And we send Sammy kisses!
> Laurie


Okay, so I was a day late and a penny short, but I DID have some wine last night! Finally ! LOL

Thanks, Linda. Ricky is in fine form and driving me insane with his bell ringing and patio door revolving! GRRRRRRR !!!!!

It's a heck of a lot better than having him in the hospital though.


----------



## ama0722

Marj,
He has 2 lost days he has to make up for silly... just think triple the bell ringing and barking as normal <BG>

Amanda


----------



## marjrc

An update........ sort of...... 

I brought Ricky to our vet's today and they took some blood that will be tested to see how his liver enzymes are. He still has another week of antibiotics to take. My vet agreed it must have been something quite toxic that Ricky got into somehow because he reacted so dramatically. It could still have been an infection of some sort, though Ricky bounced back within 48 hours so it's a bit strange. We may never know what caused it.

I asked if it could be the vaccine he got 4 days prior, but the vet said that is almost impossible. Ricky had no lethargy, fever or achiness from the vaccine and then BOOM, he was sick! There would have been high levels of both liver enzymes too, which wasn't the case. The basic vaccines he got are almost never toxic and he didn't react last year. I doubt it's the vaccine too, so not worried about that.

The vet will call me tomorrow with results.


----------



## Laurief

Good wishes for good results to Ricky!!


----------



## Havtahava

Marj, I hope you find out what caused it just so you can have some peace of mind about it all.


----------



## Jane

Marj,

That is quite a mystery. I am really curious to hear what your vet will tell you when his tests come back! Keep us posted!

Glad to hear everyone it feeling better now!


----------



## The Fussy Puppy Gang

I agree with Kimberly, I hope you get some closure as to what caused Ricky to be sick. If for no other reason than to make sure the culprit is never near his reach again!

I'm glad he's feeling fine enough to drive you crazy. That's how we like 'em :thumb:

Sending a big :grouphug: from all the fur kids here.

Wanda


----------



## marjrc

ARRRGGHHH !!!!! :frusty: I got a call from the clinic an hour ago, saying the lab lost the vials of blood they took today! That means I have to bring him back tomorrow, have them carry him away so they can restrain him and draw more blood. Oh, Ricky is going to LOVE that!!! :Cry:  Already he can't stand going there and is nervous the whole time. 

CRAP ! 

They should compensate ME for the trouble! ARGH ! :fish:


----------



## Missy

Oh Marj, how frustrating!!!!!


----------



## Beamer

Marj,
So they just lost vials of blood?? Wow, thats really weird! I hope they did not confuse his for another dogs... that would be bad!

Ryan


----------



## Lina

Marj that is so annoying! You should make sure to just take him by the vet after all this is over just for some treats or loving from the vet techs... Kubrick was really nervous about the vet after his neuter so I took him there for no reason for 2-3 weeks and he is now fine about going to the vet again. You might want to do the same thing with Ricky if you can.

Good luck tomorrow (again)!


----------



## Havtahava

Oh, good gravy. I guess mistakes are bound to happen, but when the dog already gets stressed going and you want some answers, you'd hope that things would run smoothly. Grrrrr.


----------



## Jane

Marj,

That is awful! How could they "lose" his blood? I would be furious. I agree - they should pay YOU! Poor Ricky. Maybe something good will happen and they will "find" it again...but that would concern me too!


----------



## irnfit

Well, I'm glad Ricky is feeling better, anyway. How could they lose the blood? I would definetly let the vet know how annoyed you are. But try not to stress too much tomorrow, because Ricky will pick up on it. Good luck :hug:


----------



## juliav

Oh Marj!!!

That is so frustrating.  How can the lab just loose his blood!!! That is beyond frustrating!!!


----------



## ECudmore

Marj:
Just read about Ricky, so happy to hear he is home.. Hope he is well soon
Racquet and Elayne


----------



## Laurief

Oh Marj, I am so sorry for you and Ricky. What a good boy for putting up with this crazy stuff. He desereves an extra bully stick!!


----------



## SMARTY

That is a bummer, looseing the blood work. I'm really not surprised. Does your vets, and doctors have those little boxes outside their door for lab pick up? I saw some kids getting into one of those boxes a while back and wondered how much gets lost.

Glad Ricky is better, will your vet let you be there for them to draw the blood? My dogs are always better if they can see me.


----------



## marjrc

I got clarification about what happened. The lab picks the stuff up right inside the vet, but for some reason Ricky's vials had no label on them. Instead of taking a chance that those were in fact Ricky's my vet thought it best to retake the blood. He said especially in light of the liver thing going on, we want to be sure we are dealing with the right blood. 

More bad news....... He called me at 3:30 today to say the ALT was very high - 1072 ! When he left the hospital it had gone down to around 800 but it has not been dropping and is now higher. Vet asked if I wanted to get a Lepto test done, though we dont' really suspect that, it is best to be totally sure because treatment is different and we could be dealing with a very sick Ricky who may be "normal" only because he's on these strong antibiotics. Anyway, I o.k.'d it. Then the vet asked that I call the hospital I'd been to to see if we could get an appt. for a liver ultrasound this week. We could get a specialist in to the clinic, but my vet said it will be costly and he/she wouldn't come unless there were several cases needing their attention. The hospital isn't far and they have Ricky's file so I called there.

They were only going to give me next Tues. , but my vet stressed we get it done this week, so I got called back after the secretary discussed it with the specialist and they sugg'd we go through ER tomorrow at 11:00 and get him in that way. They are booked solid and it's the only way in right away. 

I asked if I'd have to pay the ER consultation fee of $110 again and so after another quick phone call, I was told it would be $55 for the "follow up" fee. I have to say I am glad I'm getting good service and that the woman on the phone was so helpful in finding a way to get us in soon for the ultrasound.

Of course, NOW I'm worried!  The fact that Ricky is acting totally normally and very active as usual, not complaining one bit, has the vet and I perplexed! :frusty: What the heck is going on????? 

We could be spending all day there tomorrow, so I'm going to ask hubby to make sure and come home for lunch to be with Sammy a bit. Two out of our 3 kids arrive at 3:00 so he'll be fine.... whiney maybe, but fine. It was one thing, waiting in the ER when Ricky was sick and couldn't care less, sleeping and shaking beside me, but quite another to keep him patient when he's as active as ever! lol Oh my ......... Once I get a minute later tonight, I will research what other things can cause his ALT level to be so darn high!

thanks for all your support, everyone!! ((((((hugs))))))


----------



## JanB

Marj, too bad he had to get a second stick, but better safe than sorry! It does seem negligent to not label the vials. I hope you get some answers very soon, and the news is good. I'll be saying a prayer for little Ricky, and you too!


----------



## Laurief

Marj, I just feel that Ricky will be ok!! It is so great that they are willing to see you as an ER patient but charge you for a follow up. Let us know as soon as you can how Ricky made out. It is possible that it is a false/positive and he is ok. AT least they are willing to take care of it right away - let us know tomorrow!! We will keep Ricky in our prayers, and you too Marj!!


----------



## ama0722

Marj,
Sorry for the bad news but I hope they do enough test to find out what is going on with his ALT being high and at least they are giving you a price break!

Amanda


----------



## Leeann

Marj, so sorry you have to spend another day working this out. We will also continue to pray for you & Ricky.


----------



## irnfit

Marj, I just read this on a site - vetinfo4dogs.com
"Anything that causes the death of a number of liver cells will raise the ALT and AST levels. This includes trauma, toxins, bacterial infections, lack of blood flow to a portion of the liver for any reason (blood clots, low blood pressure, portosystemic shunts), bile duct blockages, pancreatitis and many other conditions."


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## Thumper

Marj

What a fiasco and poor guy  The fact that he is acting FINE is great reassurance. I hope you get some answers some. I know the hardest part is not knowing what is going on and worrying yourself sick. :grouphug: I'm sure Sammy will be fine and get lots of good uninterrupted naps!

:kiss:
Kara


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## marjrc

irnfit said:


> Marj, I just read this on a site - vetinfo4dogs.com
> "Anything that causes the death of a number of liver cells will raise the ALT and AST levels. This includes trauma, toxins, bacterial infections, lack of blood flow to a portion of the liver for any reason (blood clots, low blood pressure, portosystemic shunts), bile duct blockages, pancreatitis and many other conditions."


Thanks, Michele. That is all I can find too! This is what the hospital told me when we first went and what my own vet confirmed. We are thinking it's an infection, but the antibiotics should have brought the levels down after 10 days. If there is a blocked duct, gall bladder/liver, he'd have jaundice which they can spot in the blood test and on examining his eyes. Nope!

So hopefully he's just dealing with toxins that will soon be out of his system or something trivial. The "many other conditions" is what has me worried, but no need to go there for nothing.

Thanks everyone!! Will keep you posted ......


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## MaddiesMom

Oh geez, Marj- Sorry to hear that Ricky had to be stuck again and still has elevated ALT. In many instances, ALT will be elevated, then go back down over time and the cause is never determined. We'll hope that Ricky's enzyme goes down soon. If Ricky is feeling well, that has to be a positive thing. We're all hoping this gets resolved soon. :hug:


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## Missy

Oh Dear Marj! I too feel better that he is acting normal. Hopefully it will be a day wasted for nothing! but you will feel better knowing. Hugs and positive vibes.


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## Cheryl

Marj--it sounds like Ricky might have hepatitis. The ultrasound is a breeze, but be prepared--Roxie had to have her belly shaved for the procedure. Also good to note that we got the results right away.


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## juliav

Marj,

Good luck tomorrow with the ultrasound. Tomorrow you should finally have some answers. Bugsy is sending hugs, kisses and good vibes to Ricky.


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## Beamer

Marj,
I hope Ricky is better soon!

Ryan


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## whitBmom

Oh Marj, I am so sorry to hear what you are going thru. I also hope you get answer because it is awful not knowing what is happening. Hugs to you and Ricky :grouphug:


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## Lina

Marj, I'm sorry to hear that Ricky has elevated ALT levels still, and hopefully it will be from toxins and that it will get better once that happens! Good luck tomorrow and keep us posted.


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## Olliesmom

we are all sending lovies and hugs to you -your baby- and your family....

sloppy kisses from Ollie and Austin....


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## Cheryl

Marj--any news on Ricky's ultrasound?


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## marjrc

It's been a long day. Lots of driving and getting Ricky checked out. We first went to the hospital that he'd gone to in ER. The specialist confirmed the options, the possibilities of what Ricky might have with his liver. She highly recommended I go to another hospital for the ultrasound as they have radiologists and she doesn't. Lovely. If I had known that ahead of time, I would have gone straight there and avoided the first place! After some pushing on her part, she managed to get us a 3:00 appt. or it would have been only next week. We then picked up my mom, came home, I ate quickly then within the hour Ricky I left again for this 2nd place. 

There's no point in explaining where these hospitals are, but let's just say that I drove a LOT and in traffic for half of it. It took me 1 1/4 hrs. to get home this evening, with most of that time bumper to bumper. Ricky drooled a lot in the van today, but he never got sick nor whiney for which I'm grateful. He will be so sick of the van! I've had him in there 4 times in the past 3 days for vet visits, poking, sticking and stress. Guess I'll have to recondition the little guy. 

The ultrasound was done and because they found nothing abnormal (can I say 'yaaaaay'?), they did an "aspiration" of cells to test. Not sure if that's the right english word... Ricky's belly is shaved like never before, omg, it's not very pretty! lol He's gonna be cold until all that hair grows back. Small price to pay for the test, I guess. lol I'm to get a call from the specialist tomorrow with the full results of the u.sound and we'll see what's next. One thing she did say is that she doubts it's "just a bacterial infection" anymore because him getting higher leves of ALT wouldn't happen on the anitbiotics...... normally, anyway. 

Ralph and I leave for Orlando next Tues., for a week, and because they'll be giving me more antibiotics until all the test results are known, ie. lepto, Ricky should be just fine. Talk about bad timing for the trip though! My mother will be here, our oldest son can drive and has a flexible school schedule and my best friend lives close by and has had dogs all her life so would be the one to take over should anything need to be done. We'll be in constant touch of course. 

Ricky got home, ate like a pig and rushed outdoors to bark at the neighborhood, so all is still well in our household. lol He's been snoozing ever since and it will soon be my turn.

Thanks everyone! I will keep you posted.

marj


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## whitBmom

Oh Marj, I hope the the vets can give you a definitive answer. The waiting for results is such agony sometimes. Funny how for Ricky, things are carefree as usual. He is still having his fun... Good boy Ricky  Hugs to you Marj, and I hope you get some peace of mind soon. :grouphug:


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## maryam187

Oh Marj, I missed out on all the stress you had since my last post! Sorry that you guys still have to deal with this unknown 'illness'. Keeping my fingers crossed for some good results tomorrow so that you can enjoy your trip!!!


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## Cheryl

On my, Marj--what a day you and Ricky have had and you still don't have an answer. Hopefully the needle biopsy will tell you what you need to know. 

If I don't get another opportunity, I want to send fun wishes with you on your trip to Orlando. Are you visiting Disney World?


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## JanB

Marj, What a horrible day you've had! I'm so sorry you're still dealing with this and no definitive diagnosis yet. Great news on the normal ultrasound! And yay on him feeling so well! I hope this will all be over soon and everything checks out normal. It sounds like Ricky will be in good hands next week. I hope you can get some much-needed R&R!


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## Lina

Marj, I'm glad that the ultrasound showed nothing abnormal! I'm sure you must be very stressed out waiting for test results. I'm sure that everything will be fine and I hope that you will get conclusive results soon! :hug:


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## MaddiesMom

I'm *so* sorry you and Ricky have to go through this, Marj. At least the ultrasound and biopsy is done. Now you have to wait. I know how hard this must be for you. I'm so glad Ricky is feeling good. We'll hope for the very best and send hugs and prayers your way.:grouphug:


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## Leslie

:hug: Marj and Ricky :hug:


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## havaluv

:angel: sending angels to watch over you and Ricky, Marj! :angel:


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## ama0722

Marj,
Does this mean we get to see Ricky run even faster in the snow now? <BG> And he is back to barking at the neighbors- sounds like he is officially back to his old self (I just had new neighbors move in- lets just say my maltese isn't allowed on the deck for the next 2 weeks!)

I am glad the conclusion isn't something you don't want to hear and maybe it is something that will go away with a bit more time.

Amanda


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## Thumper

Marj,

I hope you get answers soon! That has to be utterly frustrating, and to have his behavior contradict the results, well..that great, but at the same time confusing!

Have they checked his thyroid? or given you other ideas of what might be going on?

Sounds like you've had a hectic day and he was a trooper... :kiss:

hugs,
Kara


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## Leeann

Big hugs to you & Ricky Marj and give Sammy some extra belly rubs too from all of us.


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## Lola

Hope Ricky is OK. If the ultra sound was normal, that certainly is a good sign for the liver.


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## Paige

Marj, I'm so sorry for all you and Ricky have had to go through lately. Hopefully everything will come back normal and this will all come to a end. It's good to hear that Ricky is acting like himself. Have fun in Orlando, atleast you will be warm.


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## SMARTY

We are so glad Ricky is playing and sending positive thoughts for favorable test results.


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## marjrc

You are all so sweet! Thank you!!! 

I will be out from 3 until past 7 today, so I hope the doc calls me before then. Poor Ricky has an itchy belly now. Omg, you should see how much they shaved off! Right to the skin too. Sammy sniffs it and is probably wondering what the heck happened there! lol


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## mintchip

:grouphug:Marj-Best wishes from our house to yours:grouphug:


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## mckennasedona

Oh my goodness Marj. Somehow I've missed a bunch of this thread. I'm so sorry for all the trouble you and Ricky have been put through. I hope you get good news from the vet. 
Sending big hugs to all of you........


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## EK8s

Marj,

You and Ricky are in my thoughts and prayers. :hug:

Eileen


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## Missy

Marj, you and Ricky are in my thoughts and prayers too. I hope you can get some answers. Very happy he is acting normal though. Hugs, from me and the boys.


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## Rita

Marj,

Hugs and kisses from Houston and I. You and Ricky are in our thoughts and prayers.
:hug:


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## BeverlyA

Marj,

I feel so bad! I just don't seem to be able to keep up with everything on the forum anymore. I was so sorry to hear about you and Ricky's ordeal.

The best of luck on your test results and lots of prayers and good wishes coming your way.

Beverly


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## Cheryl

Marj-do you expect to hear the results of the biopsy soon? My hubby just had a biopsythat he will not get the results of for 2 weeks.


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## mintchip

Cheryl said:


> Marj-do you expect to hear the results of the biopsy soon? My hubby just had a biopsythat he will not get the results of for 2 weeks.


Cheryl hope all goes well for your husband!


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## marjrc

Beverly, pls. don't feel badly, hon! I appreciate everyone's thoughts, best wishes and hugs and I know this is a great place to get the support we all need when things like these happen. 

I got a call from the specialist yest. and the u.sound apparently shows that Ricky's liver is small, smaller than it should be. Other than that, there are no lesions, no shunts, nothing abnormal. Good news about that at least ! What does a small liver indicate? Not too sure... 

She wants to do a biopsy and exploratory surgery. I dunno about the surgery! I was very stressed yest. after hearing the news about that part. I was to call my own vet with the results, but I wasn't up to talking to anyone just yet. I didn't want to break down on the phone with my vet.

The specialist hopes by Monday, to have the results of the 'aspiration' they did. Biopsy is one thing, but to put him under..... just not sure about that. One thing she did reiterate is that she no longer thinks it's a bacterial infection raising the ALT levels, or he'd have responded to the antibiotics. Is that true? Could he be asymptomatic only because he's on the med'n. and this is an 'accident waiting to happen' ? Will he get better or worse? He has been snoozing more in the past 3, 4 days, but that's about it. Too many darn questions!! 

As you know, we leave for Orlando, just hubby and I, on Tues. Bad timing, eh? !! The doc recommended putting him on a hepatitic protective med'n. for the next while, pending his biopsy after we get back. She's told me that anyone here at home can call her if they have concerns. My g/friend will be taking care of any possible emergencies, though the doc and I doubt that will happen - so that's good. I've read that the exploratory surgery is pretty routine, but I wonder about putting him under of course. What if all this poking around is for nothing? 

On another note, I am now working part time at Nutriville, a pet food supply store right by my house. It was a fluke and happened so fast, that I'm still almost giddy about it. lol I was there buying food and as always, chatting with the owner who said they needed someone flexible who'd come in on Tues. and some Sat., maybe a Thurs. evening. I was interested and he is very happy about me taking the job, so that's good! 

It is a physical challenge for me, with my Fibromyalgia and back pain, but I'm on meds that allow me to function well and I am excited about this. I worked 3 hrs. last night, learning the ropes, and got home in a ton of pain and stiffness so it's been a bad night. I'm rushing around today, errands, etc... We have about 22 for dinner tomorrow night for our daughter's 13th b'day and at this point, we just might order pizza!! 

So yeah....... let's just say the stress has been sky high lately! HA ! I need this vacation, though hubby will be working for half of it, but the timing is bad. 

Anyway, thought I'd keep you posted....... as usual, my email is a mini novel! 

marj


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## Lina

Marj, I am so sorry to hear about Ricky's liver problems! I hope that the biopsy shows something so you don't have to do exploratory surgery to figure out what is going on. My thoughts will stay with you during the next couple of weeks. :grouphug:


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## Beamer

Marj,
Sorry to hear this odd news about Ricky.. hmmmm
Did they say how much % smaller his liver is than what is normal?
How much does Ricky weigh anyhow?
Dont worry to much Marj, and try to enjoy your vacation!

Ryan


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## JanB

Marj, I'm so sorry to hear about this latest development. What did she say about the small liver? A small liver can mean it just didn't develop properly or maybe there's a small shunt that is just not showing up on U/S? Maybe that is why she wants to do the exploratory surgery? I'm guessing here and certainly don't want to add to your worries, although I'm sure your imagination is working overtime anyway! And yes, I would say that if it was an infection he should have responded to the antibiotics by now. I suggest (and you're probably already doing this!) to write down all your concerns and make sure you go over the list with the vet/surgeon.

Keep a positive attitude! It could very likely be an easily correctable condition and Ricky will be just fine! You certainly have my prayers!

Congrats on the job...do you get an employee discount? 

Oh, I think pizza for a group of 13 yr olds sounds PERFECT and EXACTLY what they want/like!!

Be kind to yourself and do what you can to make your life simpler!! And go to Orlando and enjoy the down time!


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## MaddiesMom

I'm so sorry about all the stress you're having, Marj. Please take care of yourself. As for Ricky, since he is back to feeling well, I would think taking your well-deserved vacation would be fine. I'm not sure what you're feeding him, but to be on the safe side, maybe put him on some lower protein food and the doggie Sam-e and milk thistle (Denosyl and Marin) until you get back. 

We'll hope the fine needle aspiration results tell you something. If not, an ultrasound guided biopsy might give you the answers. Of course, an open biopsy is more of a sure thing, but it definitely is more invasive. My Panda had the ultrasound guided needle biopsy, but was put under for a short time during it. I'm sure your specialist will do a blood clotting test first on Ricky to make sure he has no bleeding problems (liver dogs can bleed easily). I would think discussion of any exploratory surgery could wait until the liver biopsy results are in, since that may give a definitive answer. Like you, I wouldn't jump into any major surgery until I had exhausted other more conservative options.

I hope you're able to get away and get some rest. I'm sure Ricky will be in good hands until you return. We're all hoping that you get some definitive answers on Ricky soon. :hug:


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## ama0722

Marj- I would also hesitate on the exploration surgery. Maybe look to hollistic routes to assist his liver with it's function-maybe some of the liver shunt specific kibble would be best for him in the long run?. Definitely wait, enjoy your vacation and then do some research. Heck, we can all try and help!

As to pizza- woo hoo! Good thing you have a part time job to feed that many people <BG> And just think of all the yummy treats your guys will be getting and discount kibble- surely you can get another Hav out of this job!

Amanda


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## Thumper

Marj,

Congratulations on the JOB! That sounds like alot of fun  Ahh...I'm dreaming of the discounts and like-minded people you get to meet. You'll just have to ask that fibro and back to take a back seat for right now  and be more cooperative. 

My initial reaction to 'exploratory' surgery is apprehensive, too. I'd hold out and get some more results and opinions and do a bit more research on this 'small' liver diagnosis so far, it may be easily maintainable w/o anything invasive. Have they asked you to simplify his diet any or decrease the protein?

Enjoy your vacation and, I agree......Order PIZZA! What teen doesn't love pizza? That is always a hit here. The pizza place I order from makes French fries too, and to my kids...that is the *perfect* meal. LOL Of course, washed down w/ a soda and they are in heaven. 

Kara


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## juliav

Marj,

I am so sorry about the new on Ricky. I am not sure what a "small liver" means, but I would also approach exploratory surgery with caution. Don't let the specialist rush you. Wait for the results first. Have the specialist recommended a change in Ricky's diet? If not, I would ask.

Congratulations on your job, it sounds like a fun place to work and enjoy your vacation.


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## Missy

awww Marj. What can I say that hasn't been said. You and Ricky are in our thoughts girl. Have a great time on vacation- it sounds like Ricky will be in good hands.


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## Julie

I'm just getting caught up on this thread.Sorry I'm late Marj.I thought Ricky was doing great and everything was back to normal.Guess I missed alot huh?:brick:

I sure hope Ricky gets great results back from the vet,and nothing invasive is necessary.

Don't worry about Ricky--you have a good circle of people to look out for him while you are on vacation.Enjoy yourself and RELAX!It will give you a new perspective on Ricky's situation,I'm sure.

Congrats on your new job!Sounds like a fun one and close by too!:clap2:


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## Lola

Marj
I don't know what your dogs situation is and I am sure the final test will tell the story but I want to share my info with you. My Maggie was diagnosed with a small liver as well. They found elevated Alt's in the blood work that they did prior to her having her teeth cleaned. They did other tests and ended with the ultra sound that made the diagnosis of the small liver. She did not have a shunt or any lesions or any disease. She has a healthy liver just on the small size. They put her on Denamarin and a hepatic liver formula food to be followed for the rest of her life. Hills science diet food is what she eats. She was given a good prognosis for a normal life. She did not need any surgery and she responded well to the food and denamarin. She is not able to take heartworm medication or flea medication since she her liver will have trouble metabolizing that. Also her shot regimen will be replaced with titers. They retested her blood and her Alt's dropped from 350 to in the normal range within 3 months. Dogs can live good healthy lives with small livers. I hope you get the same good news with your dog. I hope this gave you some encouragement.


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## irnfit

Marj, I can only imagine what you are going through. Think positive thoughts. The results so far are positive. I think you need your vacation to regroup and clear your mind a little. Ricky sounds like he is doing fine now, and that's a good thing.


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## Amy R.

Marj, Lola's post is encouraging. Our thoughts and prayers and good wishes go to you and Ricky! Hugs from amy & biscuit!!


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## Lynn

Wow Marj, Ricky got better so quick...I thought everything was ok. Try not to stress to much, at least Ricky is not really sick like he was. Lola's posted has good news on dogs with a smaller liver, so hopefully you have caught this problem in time where as maybe just a change in diet can take care of things.


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## whitBmom

Marj, I am sorry to hear that you are going through all of this. I hope Ricky is okay. I am happy to hear how well he is doing and that he is back to his happy go lucky self. Also a big congratulations on your new job - how wonderful! It is always exciting to start something new. I hope you feel better Marj. :grouphug: Your Ricky will be in my thoughts and prayers.


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## Leeann

Marj, we too will continue to pray for Ricky. I'm just so glad he is feeling fine so you can relax a little on you vaca. Soak up some of that sun for me, I could use it as well..
Congrats on the new job and try not to spend more than you make each week.


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## good buddy

Marj, I'm hoping you can avoid the surgery. Perhaps since he's doing so well, the liver support diet will carry him through and his ALT will drop? Lola seems to have had good news on her Maggie, so I hope Ricky will do just as well. You're so right this is not the best possible time for your vacation, but it sounds like the vet feels everything will be fine and you sound set with a great support team! Congrats on the new job! Do you get any discounts?


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## Guest

Marj,

I am fairly new to this forum and just finished reading this entire thread. 

What an utter nightmare for you and Ricky..my heart and prayers go out to you!!


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang

Marj, I just checked back on this topic and I'm so very sorry to see that Ricky and you are facing a new challenge. I hope he can forgo the surgery and that diet will be enough.

I know it'll be tough, but please try to enjoy your vacation and have some fun! Goodness knows you deserve it! 

I'll be praying that Ricky is fine, and that all goes well with his next visit.

Sending :hug:'s to you both.

Wanda 

P.S. Congrats :clap2: on the new job!


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## Paige

Marj, I am so sorry to hear that things aren't back to normal yet. Hopefully nothing will come of his liver other than it's small. I too would want to hold off on the surgery. Lola had some good news, maybe diet change is all he will need. Sounds like a fun part time job, just enough hours to get out of the house for awhile. Enjoy your time in Orlando, and try not to worry too much. :hug:to you and Ricky.


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## ruthann

Marg, Annabelle and I are sending healing fibs to Rickie. I would wait on any exploritory surgery until all other paths are completely researched. I'm not an expert but I believe in least stress and and holistic measures must be pursued first. Lola passed on her experience to you and it is possible to live a good life with a small liver. 
Humans have given part of their liver's for transplant and thier bodies have regrown the livers? Can't a dog's liver grow larger? Special foods can cause less stress on the liver. I pray for rapid healing for Rickie. Ruth Ann and Annabelle


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## marjrc

*You guys are the best!! *:grouphug:

You know, I'm a little ticked that the vets have asked what food he eats (none of them have heard of Orijen, a high protein food, though it's one of the highest-ranking foods out there!) and then didn't say a thing about possibly changing his diet! I am going to the supply store tomorrow to buy a lower protein food actually, so thank you for that suggestion!! 

I wasn't sure I wanted to "play around" with things like Milk Thistle, but Jeanne, do you think it's o.k. to do that? I'm thinking it can't hurt, right?

Lola, I appreciate you sharing your story. It makes me feel better. :thumb: 

I definitely want another liver blood test before the biopsy and we'll see about the exploratory surgery. I wasn't able to reach my own vet today so it's going to have to wait until Monday. I have to get those other meds before I leave and was hoping to start him on it while I'm still around in case there is a reaction.

Same with the new food. I'll mix it with the Orijen and when I get back, then add more of it.

As to employee discounts at Nutriville..... I dunno! I dont' dare ask just yet and it's a small boutique, with only the 2 owners working there, now with me helping them out. I'm getting minimum wage, but it's better than nothing and I'm pretty sure i'm going to really enjoy the job. As you say, Kara, I am meeting people of like minds..... kind of! lol It's going to be VERY hard for me not to give my opinions about pet store dogs, how people train theirs, etc... I'm going to have to be very diplomatic!  

The 22 that will be here tomorrow are relatives. Lina will only have her two best buds here and the rest are aunts, cousins, g'parents and us. My Italian MIL insisted on making her amazing pizza and I've decided to make a baked pasta, some chicken and white sauce in the crockpot and a potato casserole. My sis offered to bring two salads. Yaaaaaaaaay! :biggrin1:

Thank you all for your encouragement, support and caring. I get a lot of comfort reading your posts as well as great advice on things I hadnt' thought of. It means a lot to me. :hug:


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## Guest

Marj,

If it's of any comfort, I had a friend whose girlfriend's Yorkie became really ill, he was hospitalized for a week and the Vet could not find out what was wrong with him. They thought maybe it was something he got into, or some type of bad reaction...he was vomiting, had the runs and was dropping weight. Well then he seemed to improve so they let him go home. A day later he had a relapse and was back in again. They ran another bunch of tests , but to no avail. Another week went by and they thought for sure they were going to loose him. Well then I found out that they had no more money to pay the Vet bill and were discussing having the dog put down. Well, I got wind of it and it broke my heart! (I payed the Vet) Two days later he started to have a turn for the better, then started improving everyday after that. They never did discover what the problem was but keeping him on strong antibiotics pulled him through.

I hope and pray that somehow Ricky pulls this off.. :angel:


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## havanesebyha

Marj,

I sure feel for you and Ricky. I too thought he was better and now read about his small liver. If he were my baby I would wait on any surgery and do a lot of research when you get home from your vacation. It sounds encouraging about Lola and would sure talk to her mom more on all that she has gone through. It sure is a good sign that Ricky seems to feel fine. For all of us praying for him and sending good vibes, kisses and hugs he will be just fine. 

Congratulations on your new job, have a good relaxing vacation, and when you come home then research. 

Kohana sends a lot of kisses and hugs to Ricky :kiss::grouphug::kiss:


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## Jane

Marj,

I am sorry to hear about Ricky's small liver. I wish I knew more about what the implications of that are. I hope you are able to get some respite though from all the recent stress related to this on your trip. Our thoughts are with you. :hug:


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## JASHavanese

Marj, I'm so sorry you didn't get really great news. I hope this is something that your vet can easily deal with.
It's nice to hear that you're able to control your fibro! You go girl!


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## Cheryl

Marj--I was really hoping for better news for you. I see a lot of similarities between yours/Ricky's situation and my/Roxie's situation. Both of us have dogs being evaluated for liver disease because of elevated blood work, but we both have dogs who are feeling well. I also had to leave town soon after Roxie's elevated blood work (I even went to FL, too) to visit my father. 

I have gathered a wealth of websites and yahoo groups that can be helpful if you are obsessed with gaining as much information as possible, like I am. Just PM me. 

My biggest concern in Ricky's case is that it appears that the only blood test elevated is his ALT. An elevated ALT can take 3 weeks to normalize. Have they done a CBC? I don't believe you have had the Bile Acid Test series done (first fasting then 2 hours after a fatty meal.) This test is the most closely related to liver function. 

Roxie is going to have her liver biopsy when she is spayed next week. The decision would be a lot harder to make if she wasn't already having surgery, however it is the only way many of the liver diseases can be ruled out or diagnosed. And Jean is right that the coagulation studies must be tested first. 

Have fun at the birthday party tonight and enjoy the warmth of FL. We'll be thinking of you.


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## Havtahava

Marj, just wanted to let you know that I'm thinking of you. 

Lola, that was encouraging to read about Maggie!


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## marjrc

Thank you all for your support! 

Cheryl, that is great information, thanks ! No bile acid test was done and I will ask that it be done. Yes, Jean's suggestion is something I will take note of. I am going to have to see/call my vet on Monday as he's not in this w/e and hope to get the other meds for Ricky then.


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## Guest

Marj... How is Ricky doing today?


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## MaddiesMom

Marj- You could ask your specialist about the milk thistle. Its a liver supportive supplement, like Sam-e. When I took Panda to her liver specialist for the first time, she immediately put her on Marin (milk thistle) and Denosyl (Sam-e) along with her other medications. She was NOT a holistic specialist, but a reputable liver specialist highly recommended by several vets. I bought them at 1800petmeds.com, since it was much cheaper than purchasing it at the specialist. But your specialist may have different instructions, so I'd check with them. The lower protein diet is to put less stress on the liver. Protein is hard on the liver, and if there is any kind of liver problem, you usually have to a give lower protein, but high quality protein diet. My specialist devised a lower protein diet for Panda. Check with your specialist on that. 

My Panda also was diagnosed with a small liver on ultrasound. But her small liver was from fibrosis, as her liver disease was quite advanced (and she was 8 years old, unlike Ricky). There are many causes of small liver, so don't panic. Each dog is different, and as Lola said, her dog's small liver was easily treated by diet. Many dogs with small livers live completely healthy lives, depending on the cause.

I'm going to PM you some information on support groups. Try not to stress about Ricky, as there are so many different causes of elevated enzymes in a dog, many of which are easily treated or resolve with no treatment. Like Cheryl said, an elevated ALT can take a few weeks to resolve on its own. 

The bile acid test would be a good non-invasive indication of Ricky's liver function. If Ricky isn't spilling bilirubin in his urine or have abnormal blood bilirubin values, isn't drinking abnormal amounts of water, doesn't have a low BUN, doesn't have yellowing of the whites of his eyes, etc., then those are good signs. Enjoy your vacation, and I'm sure you'll get more information on Ricky after your return. We're all sending positive, loving vibes your way. :hug:


----------



## Laurief

Marj, just got back after being away for a few days & was sad to hear the news on Ricky!! Darn it, I thought he was getting better!!! How frustrating and upsetting for you. I am sorry you guys are going thru this. 

Great news on the job. I am glad you like it so far! 
Keep us up to date on Ricky before you go, and have a wonderful trip!
Laurie


----------



## Brady's mom

Marj, I just caught up on this thread. I had no idea this was still going on. I am so sorry you and Ricky are going through this. Please keep us all posted on how he is doing. I will be thinking of you both.


----------



## marjrc

> MaddiesMom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Marj- You could ask your specialist about the milk thistle. Its a liver supportive supplement, like Sam-e. When I took Panda to her liver specialist for the first time, she immediately put her on Marin (milk thistle) and Denosyl (Sam-e) along with her other medications. ,,,,,,
> 
> 
> 
> I had hubby go to a natural remedy store but they only had Milk Thistle in capsule form. I did once buy it in liquid form, so I will head out tomorrow and get it somewhere else. How much should I give and how? In water, in the food, directly in his mouth??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you usually have to a give lower protein, but high quality protein diet. My specialist devised a lower protein diet for Panda. Check with your specialist on that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I also asked hubby to go to Nutraville (where I now work) to ask about their lower protein food and got Solid Gold "Holistique Blendz" for seniors and less active dogs. He told hubby it would be a good low protein food to give Ricky.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are many causes of small liver, so don't panic. Each dog is different, and as Lola said, her dog's small liver was easily treated by diet. Many dogs with small livers live completely healthy lives, depending on the cause.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you! That is reassuring and I remind myself not to worry too much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The bile acid test would be a good non-invasive indication of Ricky's liver function. If Ricky isn't spilling bilirubin in his urine or have abnormal blood bilirubin values, isn't drinking abnormal amounts of water, doesn't have a low BUN, doesn't have yellowing of the whites of his eyes, etc., then those are good signs. Enjoy your vacation, and I'm sure you'll get more information on Ricky after your return. We're all sending positive, loving vibes your way. :hug:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I will ask about the bile acid test on Monday when I speak to my vet. I should be getting his new med'n then too.
> 
> Been a long week and a tiring day with all our company over for dinner. We were 19 in all and it went pretty well, but these legs are dead tired! 'night everyone.
> 
> Thank you !!!!!
Click to expand...


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## Lina

Marj, I'm glad that you are making some progress in getting things for Ricky that might help him in the long run! You are a great Hav mom! 

Oh and wow, 19 people! That's some feat especially with your fibromyalgia. Make sure to get plenty of rest. :hug:


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## MaddiesMom

marjrc said:


> I had hubby go to a natural remedy store but they only had Milk Thistle in capsule form. I did once buy it in liquid form, so I will head out tomorrow and get it somewhere else. How much should I give and how? In water, in the food, directly in his mouth?? QUOTE]
> 
> Marj- I've only used Marin, which is specially formulated for dogs. I was told to give it on a full stomach, and it was a pill. I'm not sure the stuff tastes very good, so a liquid might have to be put in the mouth. The dosage Dr. Jean Dodds, DVM uses of regular milk thistle in her "liver diet" is found here at the bottom of her diet info: http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/liver_diet.htm
> 
> Additional good info on milk thistle and dosage is here: http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/milk_thistle.htm
> 
> Again, I would check with Ricky's specialist first. Although my dog's specialist recommended it, Ricky's specialist might have other ideas.
> 
> It sounds like your entertaining was a success! Rest up now, and have a great vacation!
Click to expand...


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## Cheryl

Marj--I am just checking to see if there are any updates. Have a great trip.


----------



## Missy

Marj, just checking in and sending positive vibes to Ricky.


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## marjrc

Thank you all ! Jeanne, I appreciate the links and will look into them once we get back. It's been a CRAZY day !!! Oh man... so much running around and we had a horrible snow storm all day long!! Over 8 " fell! Dogs loved it of course, but I didn't ! :frusty:

Head's spinning, so will finally get to bed soon...... hopefully before midnight since we have to leave here at 6 a.m. tomorrow.

Can't wait to get outta here!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Love you guys for all the support and encouragement you've given me! Be good while I'm gone. :biggrin1: Catch up later....... !


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## whitBmom

Have a safe trip Marj and have a wonderful time! :grouphug: You are an amazing Mom and you deserve this vacation. :grouphug:


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## Lina

Have a great trip Marj and make sure to enjoy the Florida sun while you're there.


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## juliav

Have a wonderful vacation Marj.


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## Poornima

Hi Marj,
I got back from vacation just day before and I am still catching up slowly. I am so sorry to hear about Ricky. It appears that there is a lot of support and input from the caring Hav moms who have gone through similar situation and I truly hope that Ricky's condition can be managed to keep him comfortable. 

Wish you and Ricky all the best! Have a great time on your vacation. 

Best,
Poornima


----------



## Lola

Have a wonderful trip Marj. Everything will turn out ok. Also check with your specialist about Lola's liver support medication, Denamarin. It is a combination of S-Adenosylmethionine and Silybin A + B. Silybin is an extract of Milk Thistle. It is a prescription from the vet that I pick up every month. Keep us informed.


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## MaddiesMom

Are you back now, Marj? I was wondering how Ricky is doing? Also, how was your vacation?


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## Paige

:welcome:Welcome Back Marj. Hope you had a great time. 

How is Ricky doing?


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## Janet Zee

Just checking back, any news about Ricky?

How was your trip?


----------



## whitBmom

Hey Marj, nice to have you back  How was your trip? I hope you got some much needed R&R. Loving vibes to you and Ricky.  :hug:


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## Havtahava

Welcome back, Marj!


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## KristinFusco

Hi Marj!

I just wanted to check in and see how your vacation went and how little Ricky is doing!

Hugs,

Kristin


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## Laurief

:bump: Marj, We know you are back.
So????? How is Ricky? How was the trip??


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## Poornima

Welcome back! Hope you had a great time! Let's know how Ricky is doing when you get a breather. 

Best,
Poornima


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## Julie

:grouphug: Welcome back Marj! :grouphug:

We are glad you are safe and sound now,and you started your new job too!Put your feet up tonight,if you can,and tell us about your trip and an update on Ricky and Sammy too.:hug:


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## marjrc

Thank you, everyone! I so enjoyed Orlando weather!!!!! It went from 72 to 82 the time we were there and not a cloud in the sky. Nice! :biggrin1: I'm not big on sitting in the sun so I was busy shopping, and shopping..... and shopping! Oh my goodness, I broke the bank! LOL 

It has been years since the Cdn. $ has been this good and there were some nice deals on clothes that I just couldn't resist. Oh, that and buying over $250 worth at JoAnn's! LOL It's all Julie's fault. Most of that was spent on quilting materials! Somebody stop me!! ound: 

Ricky was fine the whole time we were gone, other than a day of loose bowels. My mom had called the vet and was going to go there with our oldest son, but Alex gave me a call first. My mom was not familiar with the butt baths and poopy butts our Havs sometimes get so I just told her how to wash him and that he'd be fine. He was. She fed him burger and rice a few times and that was that.  It was a huge challenge giving him the Denosyl as it is a FRIGGIN' HORSE pill!!! Man it's huge! Ricky will not gulp anything down. He has to chew and play with it, take it all apart... not easy slipping that sucker into him, but again, with the help of our oldest, Alex, my mother was able to get Ricky to take that one every morning. Ricky is also on Clavamox, but it's a little easier giving him that one twice/day.

I was busy all day yesterday, at this new job and was sooooooo sore and tired last night, but did speak to the vet and the specialist this afternoon. Lepto result is negative (which we thought it would be) and Ricky will have a CBC next Monday before we do anything else. Specialist thinks it's a chronic active hepatitis, but to be sure, we'll need a biopsy. They do the biopsy while he's under, so I wont' do it unless necessary. Maybe they can clean his teeth at the same time?! I'll ask..... he's got a lot of ugly plaque, the poor thing. I read that sometime that can cause the ALT to go up, but nowhere near as high as his levels have been. 

He plays, barks, sleeps, eats, and all that good stuff like he always did, so that is good. Thanks for all your concerns and good wishes!! I will let you know what the results are next week. I will also ask that they do a bile acid test if the ALT is still high.


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## Laurief

Marj. I am so glad to hear that you had a great vacation! I love Orlando, it just brings out the kid in you!! 
So it sounds like Ricky is doing better too, I am so glad!! It is great that you were able to have a nice vacation and have family watch the pups, what a nice feeling! Keep us up to date with his progress!


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## JanB

Marge, I'm so glad you had such a good time and enjoyed the beautiful winter FL weather! And snagging good deals is the BEST reason to shop till you drop.

I hope you get some post-vacation rest soon 

Your Mom is a jewel to baby Ricky AND give butt baths  LOL on him playing with his pills. Tessa sometimes has to play with her food so I can only imagine.

Good news that he feels so well and we'll continue to wish for the best!

OT: Have you tried the Petzlife products for his teeth? I'm curious if they live up to their claims. My last dog had a terrible problem with plaque and she had to go under for teeth cleaning on a regular basis, which was always a huge worry, yet she still ended up losing all but 6 teeth by age 15. There's also a vaccine but it's fairly new so there's not a lot of evidence of the efficacy of it long term.

Welcome back and hugs to Ricky!


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## marjrc

Thanks Laurie and Jan,

Jan, there is a good thread somewhere about plaque and quite a few members talked about this Petzlife dental gel. I can't order it online because they wont' ship here, but I did find out about 2 places near the city that might hold it. I have been way too busy and tired lately to go shopping for it though which is too bad. I still think Ricky needs a good cleaning though. He's got some hard stuff on his teeth back there and by the time I get around to going out and buying the stuff.... ugh! 

The store I'm working at now, Nutriville, doesn't hold it, but I wonder if they could order it for me? I'll try and remember to ask them about it on Sat. while I'm there! Thanks for the reminder!


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## Thumper

Marj,

I'm glad to hear you had a great vacation! The "shopping" type ones are my favorite!  Who would've guessed? lol

I hope Ricky's blood tests come back normal and he doesn't have ANY chronic condition  I'm glad to hear he's acting normal, that's a really good sign!

I am one that recommends the Petzlife. I managed to take some tarter off her back teeth with a dental pic, but I know what you mean about getting a fresh start after cleaning!

I bet the store you work at will order it for you! 

Kara


----------



## MaddiesMom

Welcome back, Marj! It sounds like you had a well-deserved and fun vacation. I'm not one to lie in the sun either (fair skin and all), so shopping is my kind of vacation, too.

Glad to hear Ricky is feeling well and the boys did fine while you were gone (except for butt baths and the horse pill). I had forgotten the size of Denosyl pills. But I got to be pretty good at getting pills down my dog once I learned the technique. Put the pill WAY back in Ricky's throat and stroke his throat downward while holding his mouth shut. Sometimes it really helps to put a little olive oil on the pill to get it to slide down. These little dogs can be pretty stubborn, though. :biggrin1:

Keep us posted on Ricky's progress, and hugs to you and the boys!


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## irnfit

MaddiesMom said:


> I had forgotten the size of Denosyl pills. But I got to be pretty good at getting pills down my dog once I learned the technique. Put the pill WAY back in Ricky's throat and stroke his throat downward while holding his mouth shut. Sometimes it really helps to put a little olive oil on the pill to get it to slide down. These little dogs can be pretty stubborn, though. :biggrin1:


Jeanne, you said it. I had two big dogs that gave me no trouble taking pills. But these guys :frusty: I can't even pry their jaws apart. They are tough little buggers.


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## Cosmosmom

Somehow I missed this thread and all you have been through ..
So happy to hear your little one is on the mend and you had a wonderful respite in Florida .
You are so lucky to have family members willing and able to take care of your little guys ..
Hope all goes well in the future .


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## marjrc

Yes, Cosmosmom, I am fortunate to have my mom that can stay here with the kids and dogs. Pretty soon, our kids will be old enough to be home alone...... but not yet! With dogs mixed in, I worry even more as I want to be sure they get the care they need. My mom had a ball and always says it's a vacation for her too, staying here. 

Jeanne, I heard about putting a bit of oil on the pill. This morning was a bit more of a challenge because I kept missing getting the pill back in his throat. Ricky was so very good though. He finally got it after a few tries and didn't even hate me afterwards! Gosh, how I love them.


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## Rita

Oh Marj. I was off line for awhile and missed this thread. I am so sorry about what you and Ricky have gone through. I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.

Glad you had a great vacation. Orlando is great!!!!!!!!!!!


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## SMARTY

Glad to heare all is well with ridky , and glad you had a little rest in the warm Forida Sunshine.


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## Cosmosmom

MArj -
If you are still having to give him pills I have found it is easier to put it in something .. They know actually have treats with holes so you can put the pill inside ..
I usually just put it in cream cheese - they now make a salmon cream cheese that the dogs seem to like a lot .. You do not need to use a lot - just enought to cover the pill on all sides - usually no more than a half a teaspoon .. 
It sure beats having to stick the pill in the back of their throat to ge to them to swallow ..


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## Poornima

Marj, Benji doesn't like anything that smells funny so giving him medication is tough. He is known to cough up the tablets! 

Here's what I do, if it's a tablet, cut it into small bits, I wrap it in a soft cheese (like Gouda) and make bite -sized soft smooth balls. I make 4 -5 extra balls of cheese of exact same size and first feed 1-2 cheese balls, then slip in the ball with the tablet, then again feed him 1-2 cheese balls, slip the tablet ball next. This strategy has never failed so far. I sometimes distract him with play or treat if he wises up to my trick. Then I start all over again  

Hope you find a trick that works for Ricky and makes the medicine-time easier on both of you. :whoo:


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## marjrc

Thank you for your suggestions! The problem is that Ricky will STILL take it apart. I've given pills in crm. cheese, in hotdog bits, in a mini meatball. His Clavamox can be cut into pcs., but the Denosyl can not. It has to be given whole since it's coated and works over a 24hr. period. It's BIG! That one has to be put in to the back of his throat and that's all there is to it. Luckily, my oldest son figured out that we can stand Ricky up, while sitting behind him, tilt his head up to look at us, open his lower jaw and place the pill. He'll gulp a tiny bit and it's gone. I might need 2 or 3 or 4 tries, but he's really good about it, not fussing much. 

I bought the Pill Pockets, Cosmosmom, sugg'd by a friend, but again, Ricky will not gulp it down. He takes it to his towel by the door, plays with it, chews and spits out the pill. :frusty: I can get away with the Clavamox in the Pill Pocket and because the pocket is soft and mushy, I give him and Sammy little bits of it first, get them excited about it, then slip the one with the pill to Ricky and then it's party time! yaaaaaaay!! lol I have to watch like a hawk that he doesn't spit it out somewhere because Sammy will go behind him and Hoover it up! :frusty:

Never a dull moment, I tell ya ! :biggrin1:


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## Cheryl

Marj, I think of you and Ricky daily. Have you tried coating the pill in peanut butter? That used to work for our last dog.


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## Guest

Marj...Can't you use a pill splitter to split the big one and give it to him in two back to back doses? Or could it be crushed and mixed with canned food?

I put pills inside a piece of canned dog food and push it to the back of the throat then hold the mouth shut so it has to be swallowed.


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## irnfit

My 2 don't like cheese or peanut butter, so it's very hard to give them pills. If the pills are small, sometimes I can get them in with a piece of freeze dried beef liver. You can also try some cat food with the pill. That used to work grat for my other dogs.


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## Janet Zee

Have you tried hiding the pill in a clump of butter?? Place it to the back of his mouth and hold his mouth closed, stroke his throat until you feel him swallow. The butter usually allows the pill to slide right down and they like the butter taste.

Glad your back Marj and glad too that you had a good time in Florida.


----------



## marjrc

Ricky had another bloodtest on Wed. and the vet called this morning. His ALT level has gone down quite a bit! Yaaaaaaaaay!! It's still 4-5 times the norm, but at 450, it's a heck of a lot better than the 1800, 1200 and 1072 he had! lol

The vet thinks we need to continue giving him the Denosyl since it seems to be doing the trick. Both he and I tried to reach the specialist, but she's on vacation. ...... 'til Jan. 7th!! Sheesh! Guess it pays to be a vet, eh?? :biggrin1:

My vet wanted to ask her if we should keep giving Ricky the antibiotic, Clavamox, as well as the Denosyl. I dont' want to give him more than he needs. These are drugs, after all, but it's a good sign that the level is down. Hopefully, when we test in two or three weeks again, it will be normal. 

What are some of your opinions about antibiotics? Should I also be giving him acidopholus, though I'm not sure I can give him yet another pill... maybe I can break the capsules onto his food.. ? What else could I be doing other than mixing his Orijen with a low-protein food by Solid Gold? Oh yes..... milk thistle! I'll have to take the time to get some. Shoot!


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## havanesebyha

Awh what a trooper Ricky is ~ Marj give Ricky a big hug for me and Kohana sends lots of kisses his way. That is super news the meds are working for him. :biggrin1:


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## havaluv

Marj, the acidophilus is a good idea, but what about just giving him yogurt with live cultures so he doesn't have to take a pill? You can also get it in a powder form, but I don't know how it tastes. My dogs always liked the plain yogurt. 

I hope he keeps getting better and better each day! I'm glad he has you.


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## MaddiesMom

:cheer2:Great news on Ricky, Marj!! I suspect the lower protein of the new food versus the high protein of the old is really helping. Your specialist is the best one to decide on antibiotic question, especially if she feels Ricky might have hepatitis. If you decide to get the milk thistle, you can get Marin, which is the doggie version and is a chewable tablet. You can give it as a treat (if your Ricky is a good eater) or crumble it over Ricky's food. Here's a website that sells it: http://www.healthypets.com/marindogs.html I think there's also a combo pill that combines the Sam-e and milk thistle, but I don't know what its called. Or you can just get the milk thistle at a health food store and use the dosage for a dog. It was just easier for me to use the doggie version and not worry about dosage.

Yay for Ricky (and you)!


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## JanB

Marj, Yay!! Wonderful news!! I'm so glad he's doing so well. Is there no one on call for the specialist who can give you direction on continuing vs discontinuing the antibiotic?

Are you concerned about the probiotics needed due to antibiotic use? I'm not sure what the canine protocol is but I do take them for myself as I've had to be on heavy duty high dosage antibiotics this past year. I did find a powdered form that I dissolve in water. Maybe that would work for Ricky so you wouldn't have to give another pill? 

Continued prayers for further lowering of his ALT levels! Such good news that it's on a downward trend!

P.S. I just saw Shelly's response and wanted to add that the powder has no flavor in the water.


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## Janet Zee

I was so glad to read that Ricky is improving. Still holding you both in my prayers.


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## marjrc

Thank you everyone! 

Jeanne, I checked out that site and the meds are SOOOOOOO much cheaper than what I pay! omg, it's sickening...... They charge $23.99 (on sale now) for the amt. of Denosyl I needed and I paid $83 !! I know vets across Canada can charge whatever they want, but honestly! Mind you, I bet the clinic isn't getting this med at $24 either. I also like the product you recommend so will see about getting that too.

Problem is that the site charges for express shipping, $36, so I'd prefer to phone the order in and ask for regular mail. Just checked and Ricky has only 11 more of the pills left so darn it all ! I wont' have time to wait for regular mail.

I did check a Cdn. med'n site and they charge $44 for the Denosyl (still a huge bargain) and only $13 for shipping. To use them, you have to have the doc/vet give you a prescription and fax that, along with a filled out form and waiver. I'll call my vet on Monday and see if he can give me that script. It makes me sick to pay more when I know I can get something for less.

No, there is no one taking over for the specialist while she's away. I asked. Crazy, huh? At least I have my regular vet doing whatever he can for me. He's been great! He calls, we chat about options, he answers all my questions and is not into it for the money. He'll try and find easier ways so we dont' have to put Ricky through too much. I'm happy with him. AND he has the most beautiful blue eyes I've seen!!!!!! lol 

I think all yogurts are pasteurized, no? If they are, then there are no live bacteria in yogurt to help. I will probably just break a capsule into his food or see about getting that powder some of you have mentioned. Thanks!


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## mckennasedona

Marj, Great news that Ricky's ALT levels are dropping. 
I agree with Shelly, why not just plain yogurt. If I'm not mistaken, antibiotics kill even the good bacteria, so giving him the probiotics will replenish those. (I think....) I give my girls plain yogurt and they like it. I've even given them vanilla flavored when I REALLY wanted them to eat it. Sedona got sick on a camping trip and the camp store only had flavored yogurt. I figure in some cases, getting the good stuff into them outweighs the sugar in the vanilla flavoring. It's too bad there isn't anyone substituting for the specialist. Especially since she's gone for a long period of time. I am glad things are looking up for Ricky but your pocket book is sure taking a beating!


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## maryam187

Marj, just caught up on your Orlando trip and Ricky. Seems like things are slowly but surely getting better, can't wait to hear a diagnosis. Keep us posted about what you'll do 
til the specialist decides it's time to go back to work!


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## Missy

Marj, I am just catching up on this thread too. That is such good news about Ricky's Alt levels. On the yogurts I think the good ones like stonyfield farm or the greek yogurts still have live cultures (or they add them after the pasturization) the boys love yogurt. Also, one of the things as silly as it seems that the pet communicator recommended to support jasper's liver (because he was going to have a new job and needed the support LOL) was dandelion greens. I just got the loose tea and sprinkled it on his food. 

And also, with all the talk about livers and Havs I got worried about my high protein diet with them-- So what I have been doing is adding some potato and green beans to their Natures Variety Medallions and feeding one less medallion. I cook my medallions so I just get frozen cut up greenbeans and frozen shredded potatoes and cook everything together. So it is real easy. And the boys love it-- I noticed Jasper does better on less protein and has much more energy and personality and actually has started to enjoy eating--- Cash actually seams to do better on the higher protein. They also get kibble in the am--- so I have been mixing their high protein EVO (like your Orijen) with regular old Innova. So just a thought for you to add to Ricky's diet. But I am so glad he is doing so well


----------



## Thumper

Marj,

I'm glad to hear he's doing better! :kiss: He definately looks like he's havin' a good time and playful on the snow-thread! I hope everything is back to normal real soon! :grouphug:

Kara


----------



## JASHavanese

marjrc said:


> Ricky had another bloodtest on Wed. and the vet called this morning. His ALT level has gone down quite a bit! Yaaaaaaaaay!! It's still 4-5 times the norm, but at 450, it's a heck of a lot better than the 1800, 1200 and 1072 he had! lol
> 
> What are some of your opinions about antibiotics? Should I also be giving him acidopholus, though I'm not sure I can give him yet another pill... maybe I can break the capsules onto his food.. ? Shoot!


It sounds like Ricky is recovering :cheer2: Antibiotics kill both good bacteria and bad. The acidophilis puts the good bacteria back into his body. It's basically taste free and you could sprinkle it on his food or put it in a treat.


----------



## JASHavanese

marjrc said:


> Jeanne, I checked out that site and the meds are SOOOOOOO much cheaper than what I pay! omg, it's sickening......
> 
> I think all yogurts are pasteurized, no? If they are, then there are no live bacteria in yogurt to help. I will probably just break a capsule into his food or see about getting that powder some of you have mentioned. Thanks!


There are some yogurts that have live cultures in them but if they're stored at the wrong temperature it dies off.
I know what you mean about the prices of meds. I bought Frontline Plus at Petco and about had a heart attack when they charged me 120.00 for two boxes of it. Yeow! I'm REALLY unhappy with my neighbor who got a new dog full of fleas and spread the joy around. grrrrrrrrrrr


----------



## MaddiesMom

marjrc said:


> Thank you everyone!
> 
> Jeanne, I checked out that site and the meds are SOOOOOOO much cheaper than what I pay! omg, it's sickening...... They charge $23.99 (on sale now) for the amt. of Denosyl I needed and I paid $83 !! I know vets across Canada can charge whatever they want, but honestly! Mind you, I bet the clinic isn't getting this med at $24 either. I also like the product you recommend so will see about getting that too.
> 
> Problem is that the site charges for express shipping, $36, so I'd prefer to phone the order in and ask for regular mail. Just checked and Ricky has only 11 more of the pills left so darn it all ! I wont' have time to wait for regular mail.
> 
> I did check a Cdn. med'n site and they charge $44 for the Denosyl (still a huge bargain) and only $13 for shipping. To use them, you have to have the doc/vet give you a prescription and fax that, along with a filled out form and waiver. I'll call my vet on Monday and see if he can give me that script. It makes me sick to pay more when I know I can get something for less.


Marj- A little trick I learned when buying meds for my liver dog, Panda. If you order through 1800petmeds.com, they will match any other price you find. So you can call them and tell them the price and the name of a website that you found it cheaper. I used to give them entirelypets.com as a comparison, as they usually have good prices. They have always matched it for me. Any order over $39 in the U.S. has free shipping. But outside of U.S. its $12.99 plus $1.50 per pound over 2 lbs. The medicine doesn't weigh that much. They'll send it USPS Global Priority. Our vet prefers the 1800petmeds.com, as she has had good experience with it. I never needed a prescription for the Marin or Denosyl. Check into it and see if it works for you.


----------



## marjrc

Hmmmmm..... lots to think about, Jeanne, thank you! Long story, but my vet was told by a colleague that they don't like "approving" getting drugs from this one site I had mentioned to him. The order of Quebec pharmacists and doctors don't "like it" and it could be bad for them to be known as vets that 'support' having their patients get their meds elsewhere. 

Well, no duh! :frusty: They'd lose out on all those bonues, packages, whatever else the pharmaceutical companies 'bribe' them with to prescribe their drugs! I have no qualms with my own vet as he is a genuinely nice, caring doctor whom I trust. He had initially accepted giving me the script so that I could get the Denosyl online, but called back because he had been 'cautioned' by his colleague. Anyway, in the end, it worked out for me too since he then offered a 30% discount on it!! LOL I took it! :biggrin1:

I do see this as a potential problem, though, should Ricky need long-term meds., so I will look into that site, jeanne. Thanks!

Yes, Ricky is his bouncy self, so I'm not worrying, which is nice.  I am mixing their foods so they aren't on too much Orijen as I would like them to have a bit more carbs and other foods. They are loving almost everything I'm giving them. I just bought a bag of the Nature's Variety medallions, but haven't used any yet, since I still have some of my homemade dog stew that I want to finish up. They did eat them before so I know they'll love them. I give them cottage cheese, which they adore, but they aren't crazy about yogurt. I will look into the Greek stuff, as I think you are right about them having the live culture, Missy. There is a huge Greek community in my city here and their products are everywhere.


----------



## Missy

so glad Ricky is his bouncy self. that is all that really matters!!!


----------



## whitBmom

I am so happy Ricky is feeling much better and is up to his happy antics  Yay!! :grouphug:


----------



## Lilysplash I

My vet prescribed *Forti Flora *that contains guaranteed amounts of live active cultures proven to promote intestinal health & balance and promotes a healthy immune system. It is prescribed for dogs taking antibiotics or dogs with diarrhea. The Forti Flora box comes with 30 packets and is sprinkled on the dog's food. It contains a source of live (viable) naturally occourring microorganisms. Sadie liked it!

I am wishing you & Ricky the best of outcomes. Sadie was quite ill with a congenital liver shunt and had surgery Oct. 1. I know about anxious thoughts from first hand experience and also the joy when she recovered!


----------



## Cheryl

Lilysplash--I love your new pictures!!

Marj--I am glad the Ricky is doing well.


----------



## Lola

MaddiesMom said:


> :cheer2:Great news on Ricky, Marj!! I suspect the lower protein of the new food versus the high protein of the old is really helping. Your specialist is the best one to decide on antibiotic question, especially if she feels Ricky might have hepatitis. If you decide to get the milk thistle, you can get Marin, which is the doggie version and is a chewable tablet. You can give it as a treat (if your Ricky is a good eater) or crumble it over Ricky's food. Here's a website that sells it: http://www.healthypets.com/marindogs.html I think there's also a combo pill that combines the Sam-e and milk thistle, but I don't know what its called. Or you can just get the milk thistle at a health food store and use the dosage for a dog. It was just easier for me to use the doggie version and not worry about dosage.
> 
> Yay for Ricky (and you)!


The combo pill is called Denamarin by Nutramax Labs. Maggie takes one pill a day. Has been on it since June.


----------



## marjrc

Thank you all ! Lilysplash, I am glad Sadie is doing so much better now.  I have noted both Forti-Flora and the combo pill info and will look into them. I appreciate all your input!!


----------



## marjrc

Update........ 

Ricky had a blood test 10 days ago, to see how the ALT was doing... still high, so we did an acid bile test. I got a msg. from the vet last week saying that the levels were not normal, but had no specifics until our conversation just now. Ricky's fasting level was at 9 (norm is 0-6), and two hrs. after he ate, it was at 99 (norm is 0-15) so something's going on!

He got a call from the specialist after he faxed her the results and she's recommended we do a surgical biopsy and explore while they're at it to see if the ultrasound may have missed shunts or other things. I'm to call her later today for specifics. 

We leave Thurs. a.m. for a week, Ralph and I, so we will look into the surgery only after we get back. I am very disappointed and of course worried. Luckily, Ricky takes his morning Denosyl (SAM-e) like a pro, but it would be nice to know there aren't all these abnormal things going on inside him.


----------



## Judy A

Oh Marj, so sorry to hear that Ricky may have to have surgery. THat is so scary, but maybe they can find out what the problem is, fix it, and then he'll be good as new! At least, I pray that's the way it turns out....


----------



## Leslie

Marj~ I'm sorry to hear this latest news about Ricky  I'll add him (and you) to my prayer list.


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## juliav

Oh Marj,

I am so sorry to hear about Ricky's bile acid test being abnormal. I will keep you and Ricky in my thoughts. I hope the surgery will shed the light onto the problem and it will be an easily fixed problem. 

Best,


----------



## Lina

Marj, I am so sorry to hear this about Ricky! I sure hope that the biopsy results tell you something about what's going on and that it's something that is easy to fix. :hug:


----------



## ama0722

Not what you wanted to hear I am sure but I really hope they find out what is making his testing not normal. Was this test done when he wasn't on his medication?

Amanda


----------



## irnfit

Marj, Sorry about Ricky. Anything to give us gray hair! I'll keep you in my thoughts.


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## marjrc

ama0722 said:


> Not what you wanted to hear I am sure but I really hope they find out what is making his testing not normal. Was this test done when he wasn't on his medication?
> 
> Amanda


Thank you everyone! ((hugs)) 

Amanda, Ricky did have his supplement in the morning of his exam which was o.k. I have bought Milk Thistle over the weekend - finally! - and will start giving him some when I get back from the D.R. If he is to have any reactions or whatever, I'd rather it be while I'm here!

My mom would freak if she had to do anything. Thankfully, my oldest, Alex, is a driver and almost 18. He will be a huge help to my mom should they need to do anything. I am 100% sure, though, that things will go just fine. Ricky has no symptoms whatsoever and hasn't had any fever since that first weekend back in Nov. when this all started.


----------



## Doggie Nut

Marj, i will pray for Ricky's speedy recovery back to normal! He looked like he felt great on your snow videos so that is encouraging! Please keep us posted!


----------



## JanB

Marj, I am so sorry to hear the update on Ricky is not the good news you had hoped for. All of you, especially little Ricky will be in my prayers!


----------



## Lola

I am so sorry to hear the latest news. I will be thinking about Ricky and hoping he will do well in the surgery and you will get good news.


----------



## Beamer

Marj,
Sorry to hear this latest news on Ricky.. 
I hope you get to the bottom of this soon!!

Ryan


----------



## Brady's mom

Marj,
I am keeping you and Ricky in my thoughts. I hope that you get the the bottom of all of this soon.


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## Laurief

Kisses & hugs & belly rubs for Ricky!! Hope you get to the bottom of this soon!


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## Cheryl

I am sorry to hear that Ricky needs a liver biopsy. I hope that it provides the information that helps. I have been thinking about Ricky and wondering how he was doing. I was nervous for Roxie's biopsy, too. You worry about the surgery and then you have to worry some more because it takes a few days to get the biopsy results. 

I will continue to keep Ricky in my prayers.

What is up with these little black dogs and elevated liver enzymes?


----------



## pjewel

Oh Marj, I thought Ricky was doing better. I'm so sorry to hear the latest news. Offering prayers for a quick resolution to the problem. It's terrifying when one of our babies has a problem. I'm sending healing vibes your way.


----------



## Sissygirl

Marj,

So sorry to hear about Ricky and I hope they get it all figured out really soon for you.


----------



## Missy

OH Marj, so sorry to hear this news. I hope they figure it out soon. But in the mean time- Ricky is doing fine? a happy bouncing boy? Try not to worry and have a nice vacation. 

Missy


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## MaddiesMom

Marj- I'm sorry to hear about Ricky's latest test results. The positive is that from your latest videos Ricky appears to be really active and looks healthy. The biopsy should give you some definitive answers and hopefully a treatment regimen that is best for Ricky. Until then, enjoy your week away, and we're all sending hugs to you and Ricky. :hug:


----------



## judith

marj, i will keep ricky in my prayers and hope for good news after the biopsy. try to relax and enjoy your vacation. judith


----------



## Rita

Oh. Marj. Houston and I are sending Hav hugs and kisses. :hug::kiss:

You must be scared. Not knowing is the worst part. You guys are in my thoughts and prayers. Hope you find out soon what is wrong and how they can fix it.


----------



## Thumper

Marj, How disappointing  I really hope the vet gets to the bottom of this and there is a way to control the situation, have they suggested any diet changes yet? 

I'm SO sorry, We are praying for him!

:kiss:

Kara


----------



## mom23girls

Marj....I hope you can finally get some answers now from the vet. I'll keep you & Ricky in my prayers.


----------



## Sunnygirl

Marj - I'm thinking good thoughts for Ricky. I hope you get to the bottom of this and it turns out to be nothing serious.


----------



## Paige

Marj, I'm so sad to hear that Ricky is still having problems. He looks so healthy and livey in the videos. Me and the boys will be sending good vibes.

Have a great time on your vacation.


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## Janet Zee

Sorry to hear about Ricky, hope you get some answers soon. Sending special prayers for you and Ricky.


----------



## marjrc

You are all such a wonderful group of friends! thank you so much for your support. 

I've been wondering if it's all that "routine" to do exploratory surgery just to see. It seems like the vets are out of answers and want to open Ricky up to see if they'll find soemthing. The ultrasound showed nothing abnormal and he is asymptomatic. Should I consider seeing a homeopathic vet? I am a firm believer of alternative medecine, but in this case , would it just be a waste of money? How risky is having the biopsy/exploratory surgery?

Yes, I will still enjoy my trip and won't worry, but I'd like to know what to do once I get back so I appreciate any sugg'ns. We leave Thurs. a.m. and I had to work today so got nothing done. I am swamped and will be racing like mad tomorrow!! AAAAAACCCCCCCKKKKK!!!  

I will toast the forum with a lovely daiquiri once I'm on the beach though. :whoo:


----------



## MaddiesMom

Marj- My Panda had an ultrasound guided needle biopsy. The positives of this is that its less invasive, the dog is put out with a quick recovery anesthesia, and Panda came home just a couple of hours later. She was slightly sore, but that's all. On the negative side is that often its a hit or miss thing. The specialist might not get a piece large enough or one that shows the problem. An "open" biopsy is real surgery, as the dog is opened up. The specialist can visualize the liver and take samples from areas that look suspicious. You might get a second opinion or ask the vet why they don't want to try the needle route first. To be honest, I don't know which way I'd go, but would get more than one opinion. I just went the way my vet suggested, since it was more conservative. One very important thing, though, is to get a clotting test on Ricky before the needle or open biopsy since liver dogs can have clotting problems.

You might ask Cheryl about this since Roxie recently had a liver biopsy at UC Davis, and she might have some information.

Hugs to you and Ricky.


----------



## TnTWalter

Just adding hugs and prayers for you and Ricky...and have a great vacation...where are you going?


----------



## Cheryl

Jean thanks for responding. My decision was easier because Roxie had her biopsy at the same time as being spayed--something that was in the plans anyway. Jean's suggestion to check clotting prior is very important. Here are a few of my thoughts now, but I may add more at a later time.

1. There are things that are found on biopsy that are treatable at this time. Example infectious hepatitis would require antibiotics and anti-inflamatories. Some other diseases require a change in diet to prevent symptoms from occuring.

2. In an open biopsy, which your vet is suggesting at this time, the liver is visualized and a lot can be learned from that.

3. If you do the biopsy while your dog is symptom free, your dog has less risks. Can you imagine trying to biopsy Ricky when he was sick?

4. The biopsy is the final diagnosis. It can free you ( a little because you may still wonder what it all means.)

5. It is expensive. And there are always risks to surgery.  Can they clean Ricky's teeth while he is under?

6. Have you joined any of the yahoo groups for liver disease? (Thanks Jean again.) 

Just to review what I went through with Roxie: she had an episode of hypoglycemia before I got her, she was small for her breed, we had her bile acids checked prior to her spay and they were elevated, we were referred to UC Davis where her ultrasound was normal, her urine was normal, and all spot blood work was normal, we had her liver biopsy done with her spay which showed mild MVD (but her liver looked normal), we have slightly reduced her protein because both vets said any changes were not necessary until she developed symptoms, I have a healthy dog who loves to play with her brother, Brutus.


----------



## Posh's Mom

So sorry to hear about Ricky.

Sounds so similar to what happened with our Beauty girl.

I have some thoughts about what we were feeding her (Nutro) being the cause, as our dane's liver enzymes were high too. I also had my husband and my levels checked, to make sure it wasn't something environmental.

Best wishes, you're in my thoughts.


----------



## marjrc

Cheryl and Jeanne, thank you for sharing your experiences. I've read a lot about what you've gone through with your Havs, but with so much information coming at me these past couple of months, I'm glad for the 'refresher'. 

I *changed Ricky's diet *from Orijen (a high protein diet) to Fromm's 3 weeks ago which should help. I bought *Milk Thistle *this past weekend (finally!), but with me being gone a week and my mom not being the most reliable with something like this, I want to wait until I'm here to start giving it to Ricky. I've been reading at the site of the *Canine Liver Health forum* - I joined in Dec. thanks to your input ladies.  I printed out Dr. Dodd's cleansing diet and liver-friendly diet which I will do later this month.

Cheryl, Ricky *had a 6 week run of antibiotics *since we first discovered this as his ALT was 1800 at the time and he was feverish and very unwell. Other than those 2 days of feeling ill, he has had no fatigue, or any 'sickly' symptoms at all. That was back in November.

Ricky has* horrible plaque *on his back teeth, but my vet thinks it's too risky to have them cleaned while under for the liver biopsy since there is risk of infection after the cleaning is done. He says the vet hospitals won't want to do it at all and would prefer he was w/o this unknown liver condition before we tackle the teeth. In the meantime, I am sure this hard, brown plaque is not helping!

As to *needle biopsy *instead, the Internist wants to explore the liver and area. There is only one place a ways from here that won't put him under for a liver biopsy and we aren't even sure they'll take Ricky, so have to look into that more once I'm back.

No one ever mentioned the *clotting test *so THANK YOU sooooo much for that advice! I will definitely get it done. 

We just got a cheque from Pet Plan with a reminder that there is only $500 left on any claim for Ricky with this condition. Any new expenses related to his liver, from now on, after this amount is gone will not be covered.  But, we do what we have to do...

Thank you for your awesome help!!!!!!!


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## dboudreau

Marj, I sorry to hear Ricky is still having problems. I sure hope the biopsy will have some answers. Have a great trip.


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## Julie

My thoughts are with you Marj and Ricky. I thought this had all been resolved--sorry to read he is still not testing in normal ranges.I sure hope they can get an answer quick and easy for both your sake and Ricky's. He looks so healthy and happy in your pictures/videos,it's hard to imagine there could be something wrong. Right now,just enjoy your trip and try not to worry.:hug:


----------



## marjrc

*Update*

It's a long story and as I am so apt to write another very lengthy post, I'll do my best to keep things short and sweet. 

I was quite happy with how things were going for Ricky lately, but unfortunately, we had a horrible night and morning Thurs. He threw up a lot of bile - on about 5-6 occasions - and had diarrhea, needing to go outside several times throughout the night. I had to give him a butt bath at 3 a.m. Didn't get much sleep!

He started panting and trembling and is still doing it, though we managed to sleep for a couple of hours.

We went to the vet's yest., Friday, and after $350 of testing, I'll know more later on. We took blood, will do a complete panel, pancreatitis as well, they took an x-ray to see if he had something lodged inside causing him to throw up. He doesn't. He threw up so much bile yest. a.m., it was scary! He is not at all sickly though, which is a huge relief to both me and the vet.  He was achey and trembling Thurs. morning, but that went away after about 4 hrs. and he's been his usual self since. I'm not to give him any food until later today, and only if he's "normal". Water is o.k, but not too much of it.

Because I didn't want him hooked to an I.V. just yet and he "seems" o.k., the vet gave him serum sub-cutaneously to hydrate him, a dose of antibiotic
(Metronidazole) and a good looking over. Ricky has no pain and not at all feverish which is good. The vet knows me well, knows that I know what to look for and am vigilant. Otherwise, he would have wanted to keep him there. I'd rather Ricky snooze his day away here at home if it's o.k. than be sujbected to the stresses of an animal clinic. Anyway, there is no one there overnight. Of course I wouldn't hesitate one second if Ricky was sick and absolutely needed to be there!

I'm getting calls as soon as results come in so that we know what to do next. Got one yest. afternoon and it's sure it is NOT Pancreatitis. Yaaaaaay!  It could very well be a gastro he said, but I'm not convinced. Too much of a coincidence I think. I'm to start giving him food later, but we both agreed it should be back to his usual Fromm's kibble and not the "liver friendly diet" just yet. It could very well be something in there (food or supplements) just doesn't agree with him. If he does fine on Fromm's for a week, as he did before, then maybe I can start the liver diet again, slowly, to see if he reacts. But then..... I just may not.

I went to bed reassured last night, but at 7 this a.m., Ricky threw up brownish/red liquid. 3 spots as big as a small doughnut, let's say. What the $%#! Blood ???? He had diarrhea again, though only once so far. He hasn't eaten anything since Thurs. 5-6 p.m. This latest uke: is freaking me out! He's not shaking, sore anywhere that I've touched so what the heck is going on now ? My vet isn't in today, but I'll be talking with one that is up to date on our case. I just might have to get Ricky into the hospital .. or not...... !

I'm SORRY !! This isn't at all 'short and sweet'! You know me... once I get going....


----------



## marjrc

*the "liver-friendly" diet*

This diet that I've been trying, as per Dr. Jean Dodds and Monica Segal, consists of cod, potatoes, green beans and many suppl'ts and vitamins. Ricky ate it for 4 days and loved it, but now I've left his next batch in the freezer and will see if I even continue with it.

Cheryl very kindly found out that it's protein content is 30% which is higher than his Fromm's at 24% so maybe that wasn't quite what Ricky needed to eat. Who knows? I had him on Orijen until Dec., but know that is just way too high in protein for Ricky, at 40%. Sammy eats it w/o a problem because he needs no-grain food.

I have no clue if the diet caused this 'upset' of course and will only know more when the vet calls with the rest of Ricky's results. The ALT and ALP may not come in until Monday though, because of the long weekend. 

Will keep you posted.


----------



## Janet Zee

Marj, my thoughts and prayers are with you and Ricky.


----------



## Leeann

Marj, I'm so sorry to hear things are still not going well for Ricky. We are sending over lots of good healing vibes and will keep you in our thoughts and prayers. :kiss:


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## Laurief

Oh Marj. I am so sorry that you are still having problems with sweet Ricky!! Poor guy!! We are sending you guys hugs and kisses and prayers for an easy solution to all his issues. I think if you know what to look for, it is a good idea for him to home with you. No one keeps a better eye on our babies than us Mommies!!!


----------



## marjrc

Thank you! 

Does anyone have any clue as to what this brownish blood could be? I've written in to the liver group and waiting for their input. I will call the clinic around 9 and see what the vet says.


----------



## Julie

Sorry to read this Marj.:hug:
This is not a good way to start out the long Easter weekend.  I sure hope it is just a diet issue or something easily resolved. Please give Ricky extra belly rubs from us,and know you and Ricky are in our thoughts.

Thank you for keeping us updated.:grouphug:


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## Diana

Marj
I am so sorry you and Ricky are going through this rough time. I will be thinking of you guys. I hope this passes quickly and he feels better! It's so hard to see them like this and not knowing why.:grouphug:


----------



## SMARTY

Marj, I am so sorry Ricky and you are having to go through this. I wish I had something to add that might be helpful. We are sending as much positive energy your way as we can. Keep us posted.


----------



## Paige

Marj, I am so sorry to read that Ricky is still having a tough time. I think you did the right thing keeping him with you. You know him best and he would feel alot more comfortable at home. I hope to hear soon that you have found the cause and a solution. Me and the boys are sending you and Ricky big hugs.:hug::hug::hug::hug:


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## dboudreau

Delilah, Sam and I send a :grouphug: Hope the test give you some answers.


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## Gableshavs

Marj,

I hope Ricky feels better soon, best wishes and big hugs.
Paula


----------



## mintchip

:grouphug:*Get well soon Ricky*:grouphug:
Sending prayers,healthy vibes and good thoughts for you Marj and Ricky!!


----------



## anneks

Sorry to hear Ricky isn't feeling so well again. I hope you get some answers soon. It is always easier to deal with when you know exactly what it is. I'm glad he doesn't seem to be acting sick though. Hopefully switching his food back will help him. Best wishes to Ricky!


----------



## Thumper

OH Marj  :grouphug: I'm so sorry he's feeling rotten again. Poor baby.

Are you sure its blood that he's throwing up? Can dogs get stomach ulcers or things like that?

I really wonder if its maybe a food sensitivity or something. The only time Gucci has thrown up is if she eats tuna. I know its probably not that simple, but just a thought.

The trembling/panting thing I've seen with Gucci and I know that is SO scary. I think that's what they do when they feel 'bad', but I just wish they could talk and TELL US what is wrong. 

Hugs,
Kara


----------



## Missy

Oh Marj, I am so saddened to read this, this morning. Perhaps it has nothing to do with the Liver and is just some gastro thing-- Cash had this when he was a puppy, and they never found the cause-- just assumed he got into something. I am so glad you have a good vet. Sending healing vibes out to poor Ricky. Keep us posted. 

Get better fast Ricky!!!


----------



## ama0722

<hugs> Marj, just when we started to think he was back on course. I hope this is just something he ate that didnt agree with him. Keep us posted!

Amanda


----------



## juliav

Marj,

I am so sorry Ricky is not doing well.  I hope the vets have an answer for you soon and it's a simple food intolerence. 

:hug: to you and belly rubs to Ricky.


----------



## Beamer

Marj!
i hope Ricky is better soon!! Beamer sends his love 

Ryan


----------



## Cheryl

Marj--this really s*cks!!!!! I sent you a PM. Metronidazole is commonly used in dogs with gastrenteritis, but it is almost totally processed by the liver so it can make liver isease look worst. Good news it is reversible when the medication is discontinued. Also healthy normal dogs can sometimes vomit after Metronidazole, which makes it ineffective for what it is attempting to treat.

Keep us posted. How is Ricky feeling now? Still acting normally? If he is, that is good news.


----------



## marjrc

Thank you everyone. You are such wonderful people!!! 

It seems I was mistaken about what the vet injected into Ricky yest. Yes, he got the serum but not Metronidazole as I thought. I got a bottle of that antibiotic to give him today, depending on what the results showed, but yest. the vet gave Ricky something else and I still can't recall the name.  

Anyway, the vet on call phoned and said he is almost sure it wasn't due to that shot that Ricky threw up, but it could be a gastro and/or some type of stomach or intestinal ulcer. He isn't in any pain when I move or 'poke' him though. Vet said if he throws up again and/or seems lethargic to go to the vet hospital right away. 

I gave him a wee bit of rice and burger and he devoured it, looking for more. That's good. We'll see if he can keep it in. He's had two runny/soft stools so far and I'll see if that changes now that he's had a bit of food. He's been playing fetch, though not as long as usual so we'll see what the rest of the day brings. He's sleeping quite a bit, but no more than usual.... so far.

The only abnormal thing in his bloodtests is the ALT enzyme again. It's still at 500 so hasn't gone down as I'd liked. We will have to do the liver biopsy, but of course, will wait until this 'thing' is done with so that he's healthier. I'll be calling the internist on Tues. since this is Easter w/e and I wont' find her at the hospital until then. 

As much as it's great that there is nothing else showing up in his tests, it is very frustrating. If it was a shunt, he'd have other symptoms. If it is an infection, it would show up in the blood. Still a mystery! Could it be that 500 is his 'norm' ? Maybe he's had ALT at 400-500 for months before his crisis back in Nov.?! Whatever that may mean....... sigh...... 

Thanks for everyone's support. I really appreciate it! We're going to my MIL's for dinner tomorrow - no dogs - and I can't leave them home alone until I know Ricky will be o.k. Stressful!


----------



## Sissygirl

Oh Marj,

I sure am thinking about you guys and hope Ricky gets to feeling better real soon.


----------



## pjewel

Oh Marj, I thought he was doing better. I'm so sorry you're both going through this. It sounds good that he has an appetite. Hope your weekend is relatively stress free. Sending hugs in your direction.

Let us know how he does.


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## Gracie's Mom

So sorry Ricky is feeling bad again!!! I know the stress you are experiencing. I think a liver biopsy is going to provide more information for you. You would really hate for him to get worse. I hate that you are going through this, Marj!!! I will pray that you get answers soon, and Ricky gets better. Have you heard from the liver group on the color yet?

Karen


----------



## Lina

Oh Marj, I am so so so sorry that this is happening to little Ricky! I am thinking of you today and hope that you will find what is going on so you can help him. I hope that he holds down his food today and please keep us posted. :grouphug:


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## Lilysplash I

I think all who read your posts care so much about you and Ricky because we too love our pets so much and are distressed that one of our own isn't feeling well. I hope that you feel all of our love and prayers as you go through this trial. I know from personal experience that God cares about our pets (and sparrows:angelbecause He created them. I will be praying for His wisdom for the doctors and a healthy Ricky!


----------



## mellowbo

Vinny and Lulu send their loving kisses to Ricky. We are all praying.
Carole


----------



## Brady's mom

I was hoping for good news when I saw this post at the top of the page. Marj, I am sorry Ricky isn't feeling better. It definately sounds good that he is playing and eating. I hope your vet can come up with some answers soon. We are all thinking of you and hoping Ricky gets better soon!


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## Laurief

Marj, I hope does better tonight!!! I am saying prayers for you guys!!!!


----------



## irnfit

Marj, so sorry to hear about Ricky. I think he is doing better than you are. I was gonna say that the new brown vomitting could be from the antibiotic or just an irritation from him uke: so much. The fact that he is behaving mostly normal is a goood thing. Hope you get some answers soon.


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## Missy

Marj, I am glad Ricky is playing fetch---And wolfed the hamburger and rice. Those are very good signs. Continued prayers are being sent from me and the boys!!!


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## Jill in Mich

Marj, I'm so sorry you and Ricky are still going through this. I had hoped the problems were all in the past. Tess, Cody & I are adding our prayers and positive energy to everyone elses.

Jill


----------



## Doggie Nut

My goodness Marj....this has been quite a ride for you hasn't it? These things always seem to happen on a holiday weekend too. I am believing for a good report on Ricky! Hang in there....my prayers are with you!


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## marjrc

Karen, I think everyone in the liver group is on holiday! lol I did get one response and it was to recommend something for an irate stomach, but for now, I'm not as freaked out as I was this morning. The bugger always gets me going early in the a.m. after just a little sleep so I can't think straight! lol

Thank you, Lilysplash. Yes, this is such a warm, loving supportive group that I couldn't ask for better. I do feel all the love and positive energy coming from everyone and I really, REALLY appreciate it! ((((((((hugs)))))))) to you all ! 

Ricky's had a small dinner of the same, rice and lean burger. Very little and again he was famished, so that's good. He hasn't had watery stools yet so maybe things are firming up. I'm taking things one hour at a time here, but let's hope for the best!


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## havaluv

Marj, I'm so sorry Ricky is still struggling. How frustrating to not have the answers you need. The loose stools might likely just be the switching around of foods I would think. It's good he's got an apatite and seems to be improving. You'll both be in my prayers! :hug:


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## mom23girls

Marj....I'm so sorry to hear that Ricky isn't feeling well again. You will both be in my prayers. ((hugs))


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## MaddiesMom

Marj- I'm so sorry to hear that Ricky is having problems again today. I was hoping from our last PM that he would be feeling much better. The biopsy, when its done, should give you some answers. But you're right to wait until Ricky is feeling better. Remember to give him more rice than lean burger. You want to keep the protein level down. I'd try to keep it to no more than 18%, if possible. Cheryl and I were talking about low protein dog foods today. She said the Wellness Senior had low protein and I know the Solid Gold Holistique (fish based) is low. I checked and they are both 18%. I know I had Panda on a senior diet for the low protein. 

I hope Ricky is better tomorrow, and you get some answers from the vet. I'm glad his appetite is improving and hopefully his stomach will feel better with his bland diet. Continued prayers are sent your way.


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## BeverlyA

Marj,
I was so sorry to see that Ricky wasn't feeling good again. We all know how hard that is on everyone when our babies don't feel good.

Ricky's symptoms sound so similar to my little rescue Maltese, Winston. Since he came to our house last November, he's been in and out of the vet's non-stop. The smallest thing he eats may start the regurgitation and diarreaha back up. When he came to us he was eatting Pinnicle Duck and Potato, but I'm not able to get that locally. I have had him on Prescription Diet d/d Potato and Duck, a food I'm not crazy about, but it agree's with him. It is 14% protein. It's about double the cost of premium dog foods here. 

With 3 dogs to feed, I would really like to have them all on the same kibble, and preferrably something not so expensive, so today I bought a bag of Natural Balance Potato and Duck small bites we're going to try. It has 21% protein, so we'll see how it works.

I certainly understand your frustration and hope your vet finds an answer.

Beverly


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## Guest

Marj..

I haven't been on the forum much lately and am just now catching up on this thread.

I am so sorry to hear that Ricky is not well!! I will be praying for him and YOU too!

Hang in their girlfriend..we are all with you in heart and spirit!! :hug::grouphug:


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## Leeann

Thinking of you and Ricky this morning Marj, hope you guys had a good night.


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## Missy

Marj, how did Ricky do last night!! thinking of you both!!!


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## Judy A

Oh, Geez, Marj.....I didn't realize that Ricky was sick again. I'm so sorry to hear that and I pray that he recovers with some answers to the why's?


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## Poornima

Marj, I haven't been on the forum much lately, I am sorry to hear that Ricky is not doing well. Sending healing and comforting thoughts to him. Take care.

Best,
Poornima


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## Cheryl

Marj--I am checking in on Ricky this morning. I am hoping he is well and everyone can have a relaxing Easter.

Cheryl


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## Me&2Girls

Hugs to Ricky and some good night's sleep for you Marj - sure hoping he's feeling better today. Wellness Senior is a great diet as is Solid Gold Holistique.


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## Cheryl

Both of those are good foods for Liver Dogs, Lisa. They are both 18% protein. Thanks for bringing it up.


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## havanesebyha

Oh Marj! I am so sorry to hear about Ricky. Could the brownish vomit actually be his food he's throwing up? I sure hope things look better for Ricky soon and am sending you healing prayers and lots of hugs your way.


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## JanB

Marj, I've been traveling and am just now catching up. I am so sorry poor little Ricky is still not well and he's had such a setback. I'm sending lot of of prayers for all of you. You must be physically and emotionally exhausted too so I hope you are being kind to yourself and taking it as easy as possible.

Forgive me if this has already been suggested but if he throws up again try to save it to take it in for lab analysis, or at the very least to test for occult blood.

I hope he had a better day today and you will log on soon with good news!

:hug:


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## marjrc

"Wellness Senior is a great diet as is Solid Gold Holistique."

Yes, Lisa. Thank you and thanks to Jeanne! I actually got the S.G. Holistique back in Dec. and didn't get more once I ran out, thinking that it wouldn't make a difference. I just emailed my boss, owner of a pet health food store, to order some for me so will start giving that to Ricky again once we get it in. 

I thought 24% protein from Fromm's was good, but maybe Ricky really needs even less than that. It's funny, Sammy is on 40% protein with Orijen because he gets really itchy on foods with grain and does very well on it! Go figure. lol Yup, Beverly, it is a challenge when they don't eat the same kibble! 

Thank you all so much for your love and concern. I know I can vent and talk about any ol' thing here because you guys understand. (((((hugs))))) 

Ricky ate twice again today, a bit of rice, a bit of burger - less burger. Thanks for the reminder, Cheryl.  So far, so good, but I am seeing a more tired Ricky. He threw up bile again this a.m., at 2:00 and around 6. They weren't huge puddles, but several spit-ups here and there. I just want that to stop so I don't have to worry! 

Tommorrow will tell. It always seems to hit in the night and morning, so....


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## marjrc

"Forgive me if this has already been suggested but if he throws up again try to save it to take it in for lab analysis, or at the very least to test for occult blood."

You know, Jan, I should have done that when it was brownish-red. Didn't think of it! Good idea and I'll see what 'comes up' tomorrow and bring some in to the clinic. Libby, there was no food at all when he threw up yest. morning. Just gooey brownish-red liquid. Vet on call seemed to think it might be an ulcer, but Ricky hasn't spat any of that up since. 

He sugg'd I get a urine sample. Yeah..... right! I'll have to do that out front, somehow, because on our back deck, where the dogs 'go', it is a mountain of hard ice and so high that I hit my head on the gazebo when I'm out there cleaning poop. Not a great place for trying to catch urine mid-stream!! lol


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## Cheryl

It is so difficult to see the small differences in our dogs--is it something real or something we are seeing because we know other stuff? 

It must be horrible to have 2 dogs on 2 different special diets. My vet is Ok with my other dog being on a low protein diet. He says that he is not a body building type dog and the 18% is OK for him. He also said that it would be OK for me. 

I am sorry that Ricky is still vomiting. Let's hope tomorrow brings some better news.


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## MaddiesMom

Gosh, Marj- I hope the vomiting bile stops soon. I was told to feed my dog several small meals instead of 2 larger ones, as it is easier on the liver to process. Maybe that may be easier on Ricky's digestive system too. Its worth a try.


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## JASHavanese

Marj I'm so sorry to hear about Ricky not feeling well. We're sending healing prayers and hugs to you both. :hug::hug:


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## Havtahava

Marj, I am just catching up on the latest with Ricky. What a stressful and worrisome situation. I sure hope he improves quickly so you can do the necessary tests to find out some solid answers soon.


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## Julie

Marj,
I was just checking this thread for any updates on Ricky. We are thinking about him......


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## SMARTY

I was just checking in hopes of some positive news. I have nothing to add other than we are thinking of you and wishing Ricky a healthy and speedy recovery.


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## whitBmom

I am also just catching up on this forum and Marj I am also very sorry to hear Ricky is not feeling well. I will keep Ricky in my thoughts and prayers that you can find a solution to at the very least make the situation manageable where Ricky can feel better and you can have a peace at mind. Hugs to you both :grouphug:


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## Missy

sorry last night wasn't better. I am thinking of both you and Ricky today. Hugs XOXOXOXO


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## mckennasedona

Marj,
My thoughts are with you and Ricky. I sure hope you get some answers about his condition. It's good that he has an appetite and seems to feel okay.


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## Thumper

Marj, I hope he's doing better and just had a tummy ache that went away  Gosh, I know this must be SO hard without any real answers. 

Kara


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## Gracie's Mom

Marj,

I hope Ricky gets better soon. . . Well enough to have his biopsy. That bile is sure confusing!! It is so much easier when you know what is going on than to go through months of unknown. We are awaiting good news. Your going to the vet again today? 

Gracie sends her playful puppy bites to Ricky - her way of loving other havs. Get well Ricky!

Karen


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## Leslie

Marj~ Keeping you and Ricky in my prayers :hug:


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## marjrc

You all must have helped somehow. Ricky didn't throw up a drop today! :whoo: Why didn't he? Who knows?! lol Maybe it's because he started eating more. After having to fast him, just so we wouldn't tax his liver/body, he seemed starved and he's been loving his small meals. Yes, Jeanne, I feed him 3 smaller meals in the day instead of the usual two. I even gave him 2 small biscuits last night and he sooo enjoyed them. 

The reason Sammy is not on the same food as Ricky is that i suspect he is allergic/intolerant of grains. He bites his paws and scratches like crazy when not on the Orijen which has no grains at all. 

Ricky's more tired than usual, but I'll bring him outside a bit later. It's a tad mild, though the street is a roller coaster of ice and puddles so not much fun to drive OR walk on! 

So far, today, things are going well. I know my vet will call tomorrow to see how things are and I hope I can it's good! If so, I'll call the internist to see when she thinks would be a good time for the biopsy. That scares me so much, but if it really is necessary....


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## Laurief

I am so glad to hear that Ricky had a good day today!! I cannot imagine the roller coaster you are on right now!! We are sending good vibes your way!!


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## Missy

Marj, Glad Ricky is having a good day!!! fresh air will do wonders. I continue to check back to see how he is doing. And I am also sending out all those positive healing vibes. 

Hugs, 

Missy


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## mintchip

:hug:Marj and Ricky:hug:


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## MaddiesMom

Yay Ricky!! Let's hope he's on the way to feeling much better soon! :cheer2: Take care of yourself too, Marj. I'm sure this has been very tiring and worrisome for you. :hug:


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## juliav

Yeah Ricky!!!

Hoping that the rest of today goes well.


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang

Marj - I'm so sorry Ricky's been getting sick again. I know how stressful that can be, especially when you aren't sure what's causing it! I hope he continues to get better. 

Pepper sends him :hug: and says 'feel better soon'!

Wanda


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## Cheryl

Yeah for Ricky!!!!


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## Guest

Marj..

I am SOOOO HAPPY to hear that Ricky is feeling better!!! YAHOOO!!!!!!!! :whoo::flame:


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## dboudreau

Good News, Lets hope Ricky continues to improve. :hug:


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## kelrobin

Marj
I just found this thread and had no idea Ricky has been so sick and this had been going on so long. And you take so much time to say so many kind helpful things to everyone on this forum. Hugs to all of you and hoping his tummy continues to feel better and that you can get this solved someday soon and behind you. Now I know where your cute avatar came from . . . a happy homecoming photo!


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## JanB

Yay on Ricky's good day! Now get a good night's sleep, both of you!


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## marjrc

Thank you, Kathy. Yes, that pic was taken when we got Ricky home from the hospital last Nov. He was sooooo tired and soooo cuddly. 

He's back to his normal self now so no worries. Until the next time, of course..... :biggrin1: I went to the pet food store with them both, then the vets' to return the antibiotics that I never ended up using and they loved getting out. We then went to the empty dog park, with snow up to the top of the fence, and they had a good romp for a bit. They're snoozing and Ricky is eating very well.


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## mom23girls

Hi Marg...I'm glad to hear that he's doing better. Give him a hug from Amy & me


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## Gracie's Mom

So glad Ricky is feeling better. These little buggers can sure get us worked up. I hope he continues on in good health.

Are you scheduling the biopsy soon? 

Karen


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## KristinFusco

I'm so happy to hear that Ricky has improved!

Lots of good news on the forum today.

:biggrin1:


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## Missy

I am so happy that Ricky is so much better. Isn't it fun how fast they snap out of things?


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## Salsa's Mom

Marj,

I've been reading the two threads about Ricky and Gracie and I know how much worry you've both been going through. It's so hard when our pets are sick. I'm so glad to hear Ricky is feeling better and Gracie got good news today too. Hugs to you both!


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## MaddiesMom

Marj- I'm thankful Ricky is feeling better! Hugs to you both!


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## marjrc

Thank you so very much, everyone! 

Karen, I've been putting it off for so long, but I really should call the internist tomorrow.


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## havaluv

:hug: So glad to hear Ricky is doing better!


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## Havtahava

Marj, I'm glad he is doing better now, but this sure looks like an emotional & worrisome roller coaster ride for you.


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## Leslie

Yay, Ricky!!! You go, guy! :cheer2: Keep feeling better and eating well! Special hugs for you, Marj :hug: Tori sends wet ear-lickies


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## Posh's Mom

Thinking of you and Ricky!


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## juliav

I am so glad that Ricky is doing better.


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## Gracie's Mom

Marj - Is Ricky doing well today? Did you call the internist? I'm sorry if I'm pushing too much, but I know how worried you are about him. It's scary to have them undergo the procedure, but you would know so much more if you did. Plus you would know how to treat him a little better. :hug: We want Ricky well for good. I'm sure its stressful having him sick, then well, then sick, then well. Poor guy!!

Karen


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## marjrc

Thanks for checking up on me, guys. 

I left a msg. and am awaiting the internist's call.


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## Gracie's Mom

marjrc said:


> I left a msg. and am awaiting the internist's call.


Yeah, Marj!!! We will be supporting you throughout this process. I'm so glad you called. I know this is going to be tough on you emotionally, but you are doing the right thing. Please keep us informed. :grouphug:

Karen


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## marjrc

O.k..,.... here's more information to absorb. As if we didn't have enough!

I asked the Liver health group what they thought of biopsies and what their experiences were. Here's something from this site: http://majestuoso-havanese.com/id71.html

*"Hepatic Microvascular Dysplasia

Hepatic microvascular dysplasia is a recently described entity that is poorly understood. Affected animals often present clinically much like a dog with a congenital portosystemic vascular shunt. However, there is not a grossly identifiable shunt present. It can take multiple liver biopsies to find the microscopic lesions characteristic of these micro shunts. (some dogs have lesions in one or two liver lobes but not in the others.) Diagnosis of hepatic microvascular dysplasia is made by first eliminating PSS and then by finding histologic lesions. Treatment is supportive because the cause is unknown.

Treatment
Supportive treatment may include special diets and/or drugs which help improve liver function.

Abnormal Liver Values
A number of Havanese that are clinically normal dogs have abnormal liver values (ALT and/or bile acids.) We do not know the cause of this but are currently investigating the possibility that they involve a defect in the cholesterol chain, which is in the liver. A defect may interfere with the recirculation of bile acids between the intestine-blood-liver."*

I got some personal replies and weighing my options, I'm going to hear what the specialist says, when I mention this stuff about Maltese and Havs/liver, etc... If they want to explore only because they want answers, but aren't sure they'll even get any, then I don't want that. I saw a pic of a 12-lb Dasch. after her biopsy and it's a pretty long scar. Ouch!

I still haven't heard from her, so if she doesn't call by Monday, I'll call back. I mean, if they find Ricky has HMD or chronic liver ailment, treatment is with diet anyway. In the meantime, he continues to take Denamarin (Sam-e and Milk Thistle). The only thing that would justify a biopsy, in my opinion, is if they find a tiny shunt that they can correct.

For all I know, maybe Ricky's ALT at 450-500 is "normal" for him! Who knows, right? It would be nice if there were healthy Havs tested, like 100-200 of them to see what THEIR ALT's are. :suspicious:


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## Sissygirl

Marj,

Just thinking about you and praying you find some solutions soon.
Hugs to Ricky from Sis.


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## Gracie's Mom

Marj - I can see your confusion. Why do surgery when it may not tell you a thing? You don't want him to go through unnecessary pain!! Have they ruled out a liver shunt all together? I'm sure you've heard of a Protein C test - would that tell you anything?

You might be doing the right thing with Ricky now with the supplements and diet IF it is MVD. This is all very confusing, I know. I hope you get some more definitive answers as far as what the next step should be.

Karen


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## mellowbo

Marj,
It's amazing what you just posted. I have been thinking about this same thing all day.

How many Havanese do we know had an actual shunt? I know Linda's Belle did, but I would bet, although there are others, it's not too many.

It seems that the smaller Havanese are more prone to liver "problems". It also seems sensible to me that if a dog has unusual BATs or enzymes that don't correct themselves, that a sonogram would be in order. If there is no evidence of a liver shunt in the sonogram and the dog appears healthy, and the tests are still high then treat with diet, re-test often and enjoy the dog. I'm with you on the open biospy, If anything "liver" dogs should avoid anathesics.

I'm not sure we aren't over reacting and spending thousands of dollars, putting ourselves and are furkids through a lot of misery.

PLEASE, PLEASE do not think for a minite that I am not very concerned about all this. For pete's sake, Lulu is 10 months old and her last weigh in was only 6.2 lbs. Her last BAT was normal and I will probably have another one soon but in the meantime she is eating the raw diet (cooked, lol) seems like a normal, little, dog.

Many of the illness's seem to be related to bacterial type things. Smaller dogs seem to be hit more, although some bigger one's too. 

I guess I'm just thinking on paper what I have been thinking to myself.
Carole
xxoox


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## Poornima

Marj, I haven't had chance to be on the forum lately. I do hope that you get the answers for Ricky. Thinking about you and Ricky and sending tons of prayers.


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## havaluv

> If they want to explore only because they want answers, but aren't sure they'll even get any, then I don't want that. I saw a pic of a 12-lb Dasch. after her biopsy and it's a pretty long scar. Ouch!
> 
> I still haven't heard from her, so if she doesn't call by Monday, I'll call back. I mean, if they find Ricky has HMD or chronic liver ailment, treatment is with diet anyway. In the meantime, he continues to take Denamarin (Sam-e and Milk Thistle). The only thing that would justify a biopsy, in my opinion, is if they find a tiny shunt that they can correct.
> 
> For all I know, maybe Ricky's ALT at 450-500 is "normal" for him! Who knows, right? It would be nice if there were healthy Havs tested, like 100-200 of them to see what THEIR ALT's are.


I think you are thinking very clearly and logically about this. What you are saying makes perfect sense to me.

I'll keep praying for you and Ricky. I hope you can get the answers you need. I agree, though, that if the surgery is only for answers and the treatment will be the same reguardless, what's the benefit of putting him through that? I think you will be asking all the right questions to make your decisions.

:hug:
Shelly


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## marjrc

Karen, I'm not sure if we've done the Protein C test. You see, everything here is in French (or pretty much everything) and I dont' know what the French term for that test is. lol I'd have to look at my papers again. 

Thanks for hashing this out here, Carole! It's how we all learn and it's why I post such very LONG posts!! LOL  And no, I never once thought badly about your comment about the money and where do we draw the line, and all that. It makes sense of course. It is in the best interest of the ER hospital here to recommend all the tests possible. They are also very pricey, compared to other vet clinics or this teaching vet hospital in our province. Thing is, the teaching hospital is almost an hour's drive from here whereas the other is 20 mins. Makes a difference if you end up going many times!

Since the spec. didn't return my call yet, I'll have the w/e to mull things over and I'll hopefully get the chance to have a lengthy convers'n with her on Monday, with a lot of my questions answered. I hope! 

Thanks for everyone's support and understanding and please dont' hesitate in bringing other opinions to the table, arguments or experiences you've had! I think it's important so we can all learn.


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## Cheryl

*Long post and I am sorry!*

Marj--I appreciate your confusion. I told you before that the decision to biopsy is more difficult when it is the primary operation, as opposed to doing it with a spay or neutering.

I suspect that Ricky's situation is not congenital because of his size. However, it appears to me that he had some liver disease that was significant enough to cause symptoms when his ALT was over 1000. I am also concerned that his liver was a "little bit smaller than normal" on his ultrasound. This could be a liver that is atrophying (shrinking in size). The fact that his ALTs are still elevated deeply concerns me. Dogs with liver disease do not show symptoms until a significant part of their liver is not working. Waiting until symptoms occur delays important treatments and can make the disease worse.

Not all liver diseases in dogs are treated exactly the same. Hepatitis is not treated like a shunt is not treated like copper disease, etc. That is the advantage of knowing the disease you are dealing with and the severity of that disease in your dog. Although Roxie's incision was quite small and has not left a scar, I know that is not always the case.

Some dogs with liver disease are treated with extremely low protein, no treats other than watermelon and peeled apple bits, and take multiple supplements and drugs each day. They need to be fed 3-4 times/day. To me it is valuable to know whether this is needed.

In my mind, when I was choosing Roxie's coarse I went back to Shadow. Her illness was just nausea and vomiting at the beginning, but she went downhill so quickly and it left Leslie with few options. When she finally had her biopsy, it was the end for her. What did they find? A small liver--so we never found out what disease shrunk it.

For those who think they have small havs with elevated bile acids and they are normal, I would reconsider. When a diet is not being metabolized well enough, it produces a small Hav. Roxie weighed 5.4# when she had her elevated bile acids at 7 ½ months. I changed up her diet--no supplements she gained to 7# by 11 months. For those who think she was just a late grower--this is not true for her siblings. Roxie's liver biopsy showed a mild form of MVD. Both the specalist and my vet said no changes were necessary, but I decreased her protein to an average of 22%/day including treats and she is thriving. Maybe I am just lucky.

Regarding the Maltese conundrum where the bile acids are elevated but there is no clinical symptoms--I am not sure that you can consider an undersized Hav as having no clinical symptoms. I also know that this has not been proven with Havanese, but assumed. You have to have normal biopsies to prove this in Havanese and it has not been done yet. I know you are all wondering where I am coming from on this subject. I am an RN of almost 28 years so I have a great understanding of human physiology and I have researched the subject of liver disease in dogs and Havs, in particular. I am thinking my knowledge on a human level helps me understand the language and research studies in dogs. That being said, I am not a vet or an expert in canine liver disease.

My intention here is to present a proactive approach. Like I mentioned at the beginning, doing a biopsy without another surgery presents a confusing situation.; However, I would never doubt my decision to do her biopsy with her spay since she presented with symptoms (undersized). I know her underlying disease, the recommended treatment (and I am going a little beyond that treatment), her prognosis, and how to evaluate her situation in the future (bile acid tests). Am I sorry? Roxie is thriving and on many days I wish I didn't know that she had this mild underlying condition. However, I know that I have been given the best opportunity to help her thrive for many years to come.


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## maryam187

Marj, I'm just catching up on this thread. So sorry you still have to deal with this!
The only thing I can add is that the brownish/reddish stuff Ricky threw up could've been blood tinged stomach fluids. Sometimes when people (I assume it's the same for dogs) throw up many times or violently, the mucosa of the Esophagus tears (called a Mallory-Weiss Tear) and you can see 'fresh blood' in the vomit or when it's swallowed down and thrown up later it gets darker, brownish. It can also come from a mildly bleeding ulcer in the stomach, but I think you mentioned that's been excluded.
Hope everything resolves soon :hug:


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## MaddiesMom

Cheryl said:


> Dogs with liver disease do not show symptoms until a significant part of their liver is not working. Waiting until symptoms occur delays important treatments and can make the disease worse.
> 
> Not all liver diseases in dogs are treated exactly the same. Hepatitis is not treated like a shunt is not treated like copper disease, etc. That is the advantage of knowing the disease you are dealing with and the severity of that disease in your dog. Although Roxie's incision was quite small and has not left a scar, I know that is not always the case.
> 
> Some dogs with liver disease are treated with extremely low protein, no treats other than watermelon and peeled apple bits, and take multiple supplements and drugs each day. They need to be fed 3-4 times/day. To me it is valuable to know whether this is needed.
> 
> In my mind, when I was choosing Roxie's coarse I went back to Shadow. Her illness was just nausea and vomiting at the beginning, but she went downhill so quickly and it left Leslie with few options. When she finally had her biopsy, it was the end for her. What did they find? A small liver--so we never found out what disease shrunk it.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Cheryl- That was the exact case with my Panda. She showed no symptoms until her liver was decimated. That being said, there are dogs who show symptoms, but live years and years when the treatment is begun early. You are absolutely correct that the treatment depends on the diagnosis. Like Shadow, Panda had a small liver, and by the time she showed symptoms and was immediately biopsied, her liver was too fibrotic to know the cause. I'll never know if she had an undiagnosed shunt or what.
> 
> Marj- I know this decision is difficult. A needle biopsy might miss the affected portion of the liver and yield no diagnosis. An open biopsy usually yields a good diagnosis, but is major surgery. I hope your specialist can give you some clear answers and discuss the pros and cons of each procedure. The worst part is just not knowing. Hugs to you and Ricky. :hug:


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## Beamer

Marj..
Sorry that You and Rick are having to go through this.. 
I know he will be ok..

Beamer sends kisses... (and a hump or 2.. )

Ryan


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## juliav

Marj,

I am just now catching up and am so sorry you are going through all this. 
We are thinking of you.


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## mellowbo

Cheryl said:


> Regarding the Maltese conundrum where the bile acids are elevated but there is no clinical symptoms--I am not sure that you can consider an undersized Hav as having no clinical symptoms. I also know that this has not been proven with Havanese, but assumed. You have to have normal biopsies to prove this in Havanese and it has not been done yet. I know you are all wondering where I am coming from on this subject. I am an RN of almost 28 years so I have a great understanding of human physiology and I have researched the subject of liver disease in dogs and Havs, in particular. I am thinking my knowledge on a human level helps me understand the language and research studies in dogs. That being said, I am not a vet or an expert in canine liver disease. (end quote)
> 
> If being an undersized hav is a clinical symptom, would you suggest that small havs be sonogramed and biopsied in spite of continued normal BAT's, etc and not appearing to be sick?
> 
> Marj, I'm saying prayers for Ricky and you. You really do have to be extra cautious because of Rickys ALT. I know you will do what is best. Please keep us informed.
> Carole
> xxoox


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## Cheryl

Carole, in my mind If the bile acids and liver enzymes are normal, I would not biopsy the liver. Bile acids are elevated pretty early in liver disease. If it were me, I would probably monitor blood work including bile acids on a regular basis. How often? I am struggling with that one, as well. Now that Roxie has gained weight, I will probably wait until the fall to retest her. If she loses weight (I weigh her every week), I will test her right away. There are ways I can change up her diet and supplements to add to keep her from getting sick from liver diease.


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## mellowbo

Yeah Cheryl, that's what I was thinking. I think I will have another bile acid next month. I took her to the vet today to just weigh her. I tried 10 times! She weighed anywhere from 1.2 to 6.4, lol. The wiggle worm just wouldn't stand still.
But, back to sweet Ricky, I don't want to hijack this thread, lol.
Marj, how much does Ricky weigh anyway?
Carole
xxoox


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## NancyVB

Marj, I want you to know we are thinking of and praying for you and Ricky.


----------



## marjrc

Cheryl and Jeanne, you give me much to think about and I appreciate that. It doesn't make any less confused just yet, but any insight is good! lol I would totally kick myself blue if I had this chance to find out exactly what Ricky might have and treat it accordingly and lost that because I was too worried about the surgery. I see that it IS possible that he have some issue going on that requires a totally different approach than just diet and/or supplements. 

Carole, you're a sweetie. As is everyone here! Thank you very much!!! Ryan, i even appreciate a couple of humpings from Beamerboy. :biggrin1:

Ricky weighs 15.5-16 lbs. and will be 2 in July. Size is not a problem here as you can see. lol


----------



## marjrc

*Homeopathy and/or Naturopathy*

What would any of you have to say about homeopathic and/or naturopathic treatments for Ricky's problem of an elevated ALT ? Not sure I'd want to go that route w/o a proper diagnosis though, that's the thing. But...... anyone try any remedies and what would you say about considering that option ?


----------



## ama0722

Marj- I think you are surrounded by people who know their stuff and I hope that helps.

I just wanted to send you, Ricky and Sammy (he needs his snow hound healthy too) a big hug! :grouphug:


----------



## MaddiesMom

Marj- The really difficult part is that only you can make the decision for Ricky. I wish there was a clear cut easy way to figure this out. Whatever you decide, everyone knows how much you love Ricky, and only want the best for him. You are a terrific Hav-Mom, and I just hope you find some answers to ease your mind. :hug:

P.S. Just saw your post about homeopathic treatment....I have no knowledge about this. Sam-e and milk thistle are the only natural supplements I have used or heard about. They only support the liver, not cure it of its disease. Low protein and smaller, more frequent meals are recommended, but that's all I know.....sorry.


----------



## Cheryl

I understand your hesitancy to do a biopsy. Although I come from a background of conventional medicine I am trying to understand how you would do a homeopathic treatment regime. I am thinking you would follow a very low protein diet (the liver group site recommends 2 gm of protein per kg of Ricky's weight) with the appropriate liver support supplements. Do you have other thoughts that I have not considered? 

Would you follow up with blood work on a periodic basis to see if your treatment is working? Have occasional ultrasounds to make sure the liver has not shrunk in size? 

The problem that could occur is that you would not be treating a specific condition because you don't know that he has it: Taking copper binding medications for Copper storage disease, antibiotics for chronic infections, etc. And then you could also be keeping him on an overly strict diet if it is not warranted. 

Do you want to try diet and supplements for a month or two and then retest his blood and see if you are going in the right direction? This is a personal decision that you will need to make for Ricky. We are here to support you in any way that we can.


----------



## marjrc

I thought I'd attach a picture of Ricky saying "THANK YOU" to all his Hav friends that are sending lickies, belly rubs and yes, even humpings. ...... you know who you are! :biggrin1:

:grouphug: :grouphug:


----------



## Cheryl

What a great looking picture!!!! I love that white beard. :biggrin1:


----------



## TobyBaby

Hugs and puppy licks to the handsome Ricky. I pray his problems resolve.


----------



## mellowbo

Marj,
How is Ricky doing????
Carole
xxoox


----------



## Poornima

He look so cute Marj. I hope he is doing as well as expected. :hug:


----------



## havaluv

Carole, I'm glad you bumped this thread, I had missed that adorable picture of Ricky! What a dollface! 

Yes, Marj...any updates?


----------



## marjrc

Thanks, gang!  Ricky is doing fine, still no symptoms whatsoever. I have been feeding him a lower protein food, though I started adding Fromm's and even some Orijen kibble (under 10 at each meal) and he's eating very well. I still give him the Denamarin every morning.

I haven't called the specialist simply because I know she wants him to have the exploratory surgery and I'm not sure yet about agreeing. sigh...... I know I'm being very indecisive, but I thought I'd wait another two weeks, then speak to my vet about another ALT test. If he hasn't gone below 400, then I think I should get the biopsy done.

Thank you for asking, everyone. That's very sweet of you.


----------



## Julie

I had been wondering myself as well.....Thanks for the update Marj. It sounds like he is doing very well...we'll keep sending prayers/good thoughts that his tests(if you decide to have them)turn out for the best! I think as long as he is doing well,you should take all the extra time to decide if you want the biopsy.


----------



## Suuske747

thanks for the update!!

Still thinking about you!


Always listen to your intuition!


----------



## Missy

I HEART Ricky!!!:hug:


----------



## mellowbo

Marj, I applaud you for the path you are taking. Exploratory surgery is a BIG deal. Ricky is so adorable and I'm so happy he is feeling great!!!


----------



## boo2352

I'm so glad to hear that Ricky's doing great!


----------



## havaluv

I'm so glad to hear that Ricky is doing well. I don't blame you for being indecisive, that's a tough, tough decision. In the meantime, I'm so happy Ricky is feeling good! :hug:


----------



## Gracie's Mom

We're thinking of you, Marj!!! I hope Ricky's numbers are better when you retest. I'm so glad he appears to be symptom free for now. I know what you mean about the invasive surgery. We will do it for Gracie (if her numbers don't improve), but she needs her spay surgery anyway and they can do it at the same time. It is much tougher when that is the only surgery you are doing. It's hard sometimes being a Mom to humans babies AND hav babies!!!


----------



## marjrc

I got Ricky's latest ALT results last Friday. Not what I was hoping for... it is still quite high at 388. It was 410 two months ago, so I had hoped that the diet and supplementation would reduce the ALT by over 100 or so. Not to be, so the vet really wants me to contact the internal med. specialist. She and I have been playing phone tag since Monday and she's not in today, so I will have to try again tomorrow. 

Basically, he's gone from 550 in Dec. to 388 in May. And 550 was a great improvement from his 1200-1800 the month before! But it's been 5 months and not a very sharp drop.  But..... each month it does go down a teeny weeny bit. I asked vet if we should just chance waiting another two+ months and who knows, maybe by Aug/Sept., the ALT will be normal again. He said a biopsy can let us know if the liver is inflammed and if it is, then a month or two (or more ) of antibiotics will deal with that and we'll be done. 

I want to ask the specialist if, IF, we do this biopsy, if we can get the dental cleaning on Ricky done too. It is a little risky perhaps, because of the bacteria getting loosed from the teeth and entering his bloodstream, but at the same time, I KNOW the bad plaque is not helping his liver heal quickly. 

I've been using Petzlife Oral gel and giving the boys raw, meaty bones to help, but he could use a good scraping and it's not something I'm comfy doing. He hates having me play around with his mouth, though he takes the suppl't every morning very nicely. Thank goodness! 

Hubby says to just get it done and we'll finally know, but he doesn't realize the care and pain involved in that kind of surgery. Ricky will likely have to wear a cone for 2 weeks, then there's the itching..... ack.... I know it's nothing compared to NOT getting it done and possibly something going on inside him. But if there IS something going on, his numbers wouldnt' change at all, or they'd go up, he'd have other symptoms too. ARGH !!!!!!! :frusty:

I'm sorry for repeating myself. I just need to vent and get it out. I'm so ambivalent, it's pathetic. :suspicious:


----------



## Me&2Girls

Marj - you're not pathetic - I think you are actually thinking this through rather well. His numbers are going down - just not as fast as you want. I thought that these toy breeds can have elevated bile acids and not to compare to the norm? It's probably a good idea to at least consult with the specialist. It seems a bit strange that a few months of antibiotics will clear up an inflamed liver but he'd rather you do a biopsy instead. I may not understand this at all, but why not do a month's worth of antibiotics and then retest and see if they are coming down before a biopsy? At least you could ask the specialist. Also, I know with humans and mitral valve prolapse they'll give antibiotics before dental work as a preventative measure. Perhaps they could do the same if you need the teeth cleaned. And also, at my pet food store they have a different type of cleaning - like laser or something that doesn't require anesthetic. Could you look into to that for cleaning his teeth?

Hugs to you and Ricky. It's not easy trying to make these decisions.


----------



## Posh's Mom

Hugs to you and Ricky. Thinking of you.


----------



## marjrc

Lisa, those are all GREAT points! Thank you very much. 

I also thought that if it actually is inflammation, then let's just give the antibiotics first. He did get some for 6 weeks, but that was in Nov/Dec., so maybe he needs them again..... ? We'll see.

There must be somewhere around here, in such a big city, that has the laser or more gentle approach to teeth cleaning so I will look into that. Thanks for the idea.


----------



## Missy

Lisa, I was thinking the same thing? why not just try two months of antibiotics? 

Marj, I understand exactly what you are going through-- the biopsy is surgery and not to be taken lightly. I know the one thing I learned when Cash was sick was to ask what the treatment is if they find a, b or c. And if the test will be definitive. In my case a and b was one antibiotic, c was another and d was steroids. After doing the costly tests they got no specific answers so they sent us home with a huge bill, 2 antibiotics and steroids anyways. Luckily we didn't have to use the steroids. 

So why not try 2 more months of antibiotics?

Hugs to you and Ricky and Sammy.


----------



## mellowbo

Marj, I'm right on track with Lisa and Missy. Would numbers go down if it wasn't getting better?? Look how far they have come down from the start. I kinda think it makes more sense to try the 2 months of antibiotics first, not the biopsy first. 
We love you and Ricky!
Carole
xxoox


----------



## MopTop Havanese

Marj~
I just wanted to pop in and give you my little story. After Roxie was diagnosed with MVD, I decided to have Stella's bile acids run. (Roxies mom). I had done a bile acid test on her a couple years ago before I bred her for the first time, and those results were normal. Stella's bile acids came back slightly elevated. (normal results are under 20 post, Stellas were 23) I decided to have her spayed, with a liver biopsy done at the same time, and I had her teeth cleaned too. She came thru the surgery like a trooper. Her scar/incision is bigger than a normal spay scar. She did alot of laying around and resting the first week. She never even had to wear a cone, as she never messed with her stitches. She was on 2 weeks of antibiotics and had pain meds for the first few days. I did get her biopsy results, which came back inconclusive. There was not enough evidence to say "yes, she has MVD", she was found to have "disorganized lobular texture" (whatever that means!). The vet said she probably has a very very mild case of MVD. Because she is showing no signs or symptoms, I don't need to change anything with her right now. I can start supplimenting Milk Thistle and Vit E if I would like. It can only help her, not hurt her.
I am very glad that I did the biopsy, it's nice to have answers, even if they aren't 100% conclusive.
I wish the best for you and Ricky. I too would do a month or two of antibiotics and if his numbers don't change, then maybe it's time for the biopsy.


----------



## imamurph

Oh Marj...my heart and prayers are with you!!!


----------



## juliav

Marj,

We are thinking of you and sending Hava-hugs your way.


----------



## marjrc

Awwwwww.. thanks everyone!! I love you too and appreciate your support and especially your opinions. Seriously, I love hearing whatever it is you think because it can help me learn. We can all benefit from that, so thank you. 

I have yet to even speak with this specialist. We've been playing telephone tag all @#$%[email protected] week!! :frusty: I'm told she'll be in on Monday.. o.k., so I'll try again. I did get a msg. from her assistant today who said she could try to help me, but I figure I might as well wait until Monday and hopefully speak with the doc. then. 

I will ask about antibiotic treatment. Ricky had some for 6 weeks when this first came up in Nov., but maybe he just needs more? Katie, thank you for sharing your experience with Roxie and Stella. I will definitely urge them to do the dental cleaning if Ricky gets a biopsy done. Armed with antibiotics and pain-killers and lots of TLC, he could end up being just fine.  I am encouraged to see the numbers go down, though they aren't going down fast enough for my, or the vet's taste. BUT , they are going down, so that's a good thing. If he were truly a "liver dog", then I can't imagine his ALT reducing unless we were treating him accordingly. I do give him Denamarin and avoid red meats and fatty foods, give him cheese and yogurt to help with ammonia levels.... so .... 

I'll let you know what the doc says IF I can actually speak with her on Monday! :suspicious:


----------



## Sissygirl

Marj,

Sending you hugs. Hope you get to the bottom of this soon. I know you must be very worried.


----------



## MaddiesMom

Marj- I hope you're able to get some answers soon on Ricky. I know how worried and frustrated you must be. I'm glad he's not showing symptoms. :hug:


----------



## mellowbo

Marj,
Is the liver biopsy a needle aspiration or is it an actual surgery?
Carole


----------



## Julie

Marj---I've been thinking about you and Ricky and following this thread---but just not posting. I don't know what to say....but we are thinking about you and Ricky. Quince and Vinnie send tail wags and ear lickies!


----------



## marjrc

mellowbo said:


> Marj,
> Is the liver biopsy a needle aspiration or is it an actual surgery?
> Carole


Hi Carole, it would be an exploratory surgery. They did a needle aspiration when they did the ultrasound and it didn't show much.

I am STILL waiting to speak to someone in the specialist's office. Seems like this dr. is rarely there and I've left 3 msgs. in the past 10 days. Today when I called yet again, I was told her assistant would call me today. I want to know what other options there are.

Thanks for all your support. I know there isn't much to say, but I do appreciate just being able to vent here.


----------



## Mijo's Mom

Hi Marj, I too have been following this thread. I'm wondering what other options the specialist will suggest. I know we chatted about Mijo's options (who's in sort of a similar situation as Ricky) so it would be nice to hear another professional opinion. Keeping you both in my thoughts and prayers.

Connie


----------



## Laurief

Oh Marj, I have not been on much lately and have not seen that we again are revisiting this issue. Poor baby - I have to say that I agree with the others that the less invasive option is the antibiotics and if they worked before, maybe they just needed longer.
Not that kids are like dogs, but when my son was diagnosed with MRSA they gave him 3 weeks of antibiotics, and he appeared to be fine for a long while, then BAMM.. he had another really bad infection that required surgery, so after the surgery was done, they put him on 8 weeks of massive doses of 3 antibiotics and that was 2 1/2 years ago, and has been fine since. 
So maybe it is just that he needs a longer dose of meds to kick whatever it is out of his system. And if not, "then" do biopsy!
I am thinking about you and Ricky - sending good thoughts your way!!!
Laurie


----------



## SMARTY

I check this thread often. I have nothing to offer except our positive thoughts and wishes for a happy out come. Doctors drive me crazy with not calling when you expect them to. they just need to say, "I have nothing to tell you".


----------



## Cheryl

Marj--you have made some strides with the supplements. I am thinking that if you try the supplements with a low protein diet for a few weeks (and perhaps add the antibiotics), you might be able to avoid the biopsy. Any positive liver disease from the biopsy would reult in a low protein diet. The continues elevated ALT signifies continued liver cell death. I think your supplements have helped, but the high protein in a raw diet is not helping. (Perhaps if you can add rice and vegetables to the raw, it would lowere the overall protein enough to make a difference.)

I hope you can speak to the internist soon to ask these questions.


----------



## mellowbo

Hi Marj,
Have you started a new round of heavy antibiotics? Or is the vet still waiting for you hear from the specialist? It seems like it is taking so long to hear from the specialist that the round could be over before you hear! It would be so interesting to see how a new blood test would read after a couple months of heavy antibiotics, low protein diet, fish oil and milk thesil. If it is MVD isn't that how he would be treated anyway? 
We love you and little Ricky and are always praying. Please keep us informed and feel free to vent anytime!!!
Carole, Vinny and Lulu.


----------



## marjrc

You all are so very sweet and I appreciate every one of your comments, good wishes and hugs. Ricky is loving the extra belly rubs too. 

I finally spoke with an assistant who recommends we meet so we can go over everything with the specialist. She did not think getting Ricky's teeth cleaned at the same time as a biopsy was a good idea, because being a small dog and under for that long could cause him to become too cold and invite trouble. Better to do it in two shots. That is, of course, IF we do the biopsy. She said the ALT wasn't going down fast enough so something should be done at this point. I have an appt. next week.

I want to push for a round of antibiotics because that just seems the least invasive action right now, as well as a good plan. Yes, Cheryl, I suppose I will have to cut back on the protein after all. Maybe it really isn't helping that I've upped it. Darn! He won't eat veggies, raw or cooked, and I don't like giving grains, certainly not too many grains, so I'll have to see what I can do. 

Thank you all so much! ((((((((hugs)))))))) Will keep you posted!


----------



## mellowbo

Yipee! I'm so glad you finally were able to get an appointment! Positive thoughts zappin your way.
Feel em??
Carole


----------



## Miss Paige

We have been following this thread also and just wanted to send you-your family & Ricky a ton of hugs from the three of us. Please let us know how the Dr visit goes next week. And know you & Ricky are in our thoughts & prayers.

Pat (humom to-)
Miss Paige
Mr Roman


----------



## MaddiesMom

Cheryl said:


> Marj--you have made some strides with the supplements. I am thinking that if you try the supplements with a low protein diet for a few weeks (and perhaps add the antibiotics), you might be able to avoid the biopsy. Any positive liver disease from the biopsy would reult in a low protein diet. The continues elevated ALT signifies continued liver cell death. I think your supplements have helped, but the high protein in a raw diet is not helping. (Perhaps if you can add rice and vegetables to the raw, it would lowere the overall protein enough to make a difference.)
> 
> I hope you can speak to the internist soon to ask these questions.


Marj- Cheryl is right on about the necessity for lowering the protein in a liver dog's diet. Protein is hard to process by a compromised liver. The dog may not show symptoms, but the liver will continue to be stressed. My vet gave me a home cooked diet for Panda for awhile, but it definitely had more rice than protein. I eventually switched her over to a lower protein dog food. What is most important is to provide a high quality protein so that liver cells can regenerate (like lean meats, egg, cottage cheese, fish, etc.), but not alot of it so that the liver is stressed. I sure hope you can get some answers on Ricky. Maddie and I send lots of hugs.:hug:


----------



## JanB

Marj, I just caught up on this thread. I'm sorry Ricky's health is still a big unanswered question. I have no advice but I will say a prayer and Tessa, Tucker and I are sending lots of hugs!


----------



## Me&2Girls

Marj, I know it's hard to make the protein switch when you believe like I do that it's important for the dogs. But that's dog with a normal liver - your job now is to find a way to give him a life-sustaining protein level while giving him enough nutrients. Remember, he's not a performance dog and years ago we fed our dogs horribly and they lived forever. Imagine what all of today's science can help us do...hugs to you. I know it's not easy.


----------



## mckennasedona

We send hugs too Marj. It's so hard to figure out just what his liver will tolerate and just how that relates to getting him the nutrients, vitamins and minerals he needs to get healthy.


----------



## dboudreau

Hi Marj, just getting caught up with this thread. Hope the specialist can provide you with some answers. :hug: to you and Ricky.


----------



## Poornima

Sending tons of good wishses and :hug:s to you and Ricky.


----------



## Thumper

:grouphug:s to Ricky and you :kiss:

I don't know what more to interject on the diet and antibiotic theory, but they are worth giving it a shot, I think. I know Gucci prefers protein, so that would be a hard one, I'm sure all dogs love it.

What about non-meat proteins? ie. Beans? Are they still hard on the liver?

I have a refried bean furry fanatic. lol Especially, if it is attached to a nacho! ound:

Kara


----------



## Lina

Marj, I'm so sorry that you still are in the dark about Ricky's condition! I hope that you will get some answer soon. :hug:


----------



## Missy

Marj, I am glad you are going to talk with a specialist next week. Hugs and good vibes being sent your way!!!

Did you see this food that Linda posted in the "finds to share thread." It looks interesting and looks like it might be good for a liver compromised dog as it only has 20% protein but it is supposed to be very high quality protein... Wild Bushtail-- Who knew?

http://www.addictionfoods.com/singapore/prod_dog_perfect.php


----------



## marjrc

Thank you, everyone!  

I've decided to ask a couple of groups that should be able to help me figure the right diet for Ricky. I've joined K9Kitchen and Raw in Canada and will see what I can learn there. I'm just more than a little confused right now, though my gut does tell me not to give up the raw, so I want to be sure I give him and Sammy the healthiest diet I can.

Kara, I've read that soy isn't recommended since dogs can't assimilate plant protein as they do meat protein.... ? Lisa, I hear you, but I'm still not 100% convinced, I'm afraid. Just being stubborn, I guess! 

Missy, that product looks great, but it's only available in New Zealand! lol They don't deliver, though I can't imagine what those shipping costs would be! :suspicious: :biggrin1: They don't have distributors anywhere else yet.


----------



## RikiDaisyDixie

*addiction available in Ontario*

www.addictionfoods.com (this is the US/Canada site)
If you have visited any of the listed stores and were unable to buy Addiction, please email us at [email protected] and we will direct you to the nearest store with availability!

Click here for stores in Vancouver.

Country Grocer

www.countrygrocer.com/

729 Ridgewood Ave 
Ottawa, 
Ontario K1V 6M8

+1 (613) 731-6883 (phone)

Critter Jungle

www.critterjungle.com

Hampton Park Plaza
1405 Carling Ave
Ottawa, 
Ontario K1Z 7L6

+1 (888) 3JUNGLE
+1 (613) 729-7354 (phone)

Global Pet Foods

www.globalpetfood.com

1111 Princess Street, Unit 2 
Kingston, 
Ontario K7L 2T1

+1 (613) 548-8048 (phone)

Happy Tails

www.happytailstoronto.com

571 Mount Pleasant Road 
Toronto, 
Ontario M4S 2M5

+1 (416) 485-0513 (phone)

Natural Food Pantry

www.naturalfoodpantry.com 126 York Street 
Ottawa, 
Ontario K1N 5T5	+1 (613) 241-6629 (phone)

The Dog House

www.thedoghousetoronto.com

140 Carlton Street 
Toronto, 
Ontario K7P 2X8	+1 (416) 778-5633 (phone)
The Pampered Pet	2446 Bank Street 
Ottawa, 
Ontario K1V 1A4	+1 (613) 521-6272 (phone)
Urban Paws

www.urbanpaws.ca/


----------



## Beamer

Marj - They sell that stuff at my Global Pet Foods and they are not even on the website list. Call up all the Globals in your area and I bet you will find it.

Ryan


----------



## Me&2Girls

Marj - I hear you girl. I bet you're feeling like this about now


----------



## marjrc

sigh....... I'm getting different opinions from the groups I joined. Some think I should be giving Ricky a liver friendly diet, incl. white fish, chicken, oatmeal, some veggies and supplements. Others say a raw diet will actually make him healthy so it will be easier for him to fight the high ALT. :frusty: I'm going to see what I can come up with, a mix of both 'worlds' so to speak, that will sit well with me and hopefully give Ricky the best chance. 

There are a couple of Global stores a ways from me and I keep meaning to check them out, so might do that this coming week - they are competitors of the store I work at, but I just want to see what's available. 

Linda, thank you so much for those links, hon.  I'm in Quebec, but that got me thinking of Global, as Ryan mentioned. Thanks!

Lisa, I totally love that jumping green guy!!! :biggrin1:


----------



## marjrc

After days and days of thinking on this, I want to thank you, Cheryl and Jeanne, for not giving up on me.  I will start adding oatmeal and diff. protein sources to ricky's diet. I just posted the same over in 'Mijo has primary liver disease' thread, so won't repeat everything. 

Anyway, I've got a few more dozen pages of printouts to read tomorrow so will figure it out eventually! :suspicious::biggrin1:


----------



## mellowbo

Marj, 
Bless your heart! I know you are going through so much agony. You will do the best for Ricky! We love you!
Carole


----------



## Cheryl

Marj--I know that this is difficult for you. Follow the diet that is best for your Ricky--not necessarily the one that Jeanne or I recommend. We want the best for you and Ricky. We are giving you ideas on what questions to ask the specialist. I firmly believe that a lower protein diet is indicated, but it is the specialist's position to prescribe it. 

I hope forr the best for you and Ricky. Please keep us posted.


----------



## havanesebyha

Marj,

Pebble had diarrhia this past week and the vet put her on a bland diet and actually both girls are eating it right down - brown rice, cottage cheese, and a little bit of cut up chicken. Maybe Ricky would go for that. 

Hugs to you and Ricky :grouphug:


----------



## Olliesmom

I am just following this thread with love and empathy to you...I know nothing about this and send you hugs, support and admiration of your dedication to Ricky...


----------



## MaddiesMom

Marj- It is so obvious how much you love Ricky and are trying to do the very best for him. I so hope the specialist can give you the advice you need. Just know that you are an amazing Mom to your furboys, and we all are so hoping you get the answers you need. :grouphug:


----------



## Missy

Marj-- I just want to give you another hug. In all of this, just remember, the good news, is Ricky is still Ricky and is not experiencing any Symptoms of his high test levels. That has got to be a good thing right? :hug:


----------



## Salsa's Mom

Just wanted to add one more to the group hug :grouphug: I can only imagine the worry and frustration you're feeling, but your dedication to little Ricky is very inspiring. You're a wonderful hav mom!


----------



## casperkeep

Just want you to know that we are sending lots of hugs your way from us all here!!!


----------



## marjrc

*Update*

We saw the specialist today. Ricky was examined yet again... poor guy is fed up with vets! lol Basically, it boils down to us having to do the biopsy and exploratory surgery. The fact that his ALT is still very high and only going down ever so slightly each two months isn't good. There is damage being done to his liver, maybe not a lot, but something is going on. If we wait, we will only be waiting until he starts showing symptoms and by then, he could decline rapidly. Then, they'd be operating on a sick dog which is less than ideal.

She did suggest the scintography, but there are no machines in my province, so I'd have to go either to Ontario or to the states. Not worth it, as it would still not necessarily find some things. While they do the surgery, they will take a biopsy of each liver lobe (I don't even know how many lobes a liver has! DUH!) and I agreed that they also do a portography. That will show if there are portosystemic shunts. I've decided to go to a vet hospital quite a ways from us, because they have everything and everyone on site that will be needed to get this done. My doc will get in touch with them and they will then give me an appt., which should be within 2-3 weeks. He isn't an urgent case, because he is asymptomatic, but the doc I saw today agrees that we shouldn't wait two months.

Also, a raw diet is definitely not recommended, which is what I'd come to realize a couple of days ago. Thank you for pointing that out to me, Jeanne and Cheryl, and a couple of other members. I wish that weren't the case, since I'd love to say that 'natural is better', but that isn't the case now and so I am very comfortable with a cooked homemade diet and sometimes Fromm's and Solid Gold kibble. Ricky eats pretty much anything so that should go well.  Sammy can continue on raw sometimes.

Oh, the teeth thing... Specialist today thinks that the plaque Ricky has is a minor issue (it's so much better since he's been eating raw meaty bones and I've been using the Petzlife oral gel! :whoo: ) so she sugg'd that once all this was resolved, then we can think about getting them done. Doing them now will only stress his liver and it's definitely not a good idea to do them when they do the biopsy/surgery. I feel good about the teeth now and won't worry so much. They can wait 'til fall or next winter. Of course, with no meaty bones in his diet, I'll have to think of something else to help clean them!!

I think that's it..... long post as it is ! I'll know next week when he's likely to have this done and will keep you posted.


----------



## mckennasedona

Marj, I'm so sorry to hear that Ricky has to go through surgery but, like you wrote, finding out what is wrong while he is asymptomatic is worth it. Sending lots of hugs to all of you while you wait for an appointment. :hug:


----------



## Julie

I hope you get an appointment soon and you are able to put this all behind you soon.:hug:
Sending ear lickies and hugs your way---------:grouphug::hug::grouphug::hug:


----------



## Me&2Girls

I'm glad you finally got to see the specialist and am so sorry that you're going to need to do the biopsy and exploratory surgery. Not fun especially since you don't have a good place close by. Hugs to you guys.


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## Lola

I hope you get an appointment soon. The waiting is the worst!! Good luck and thoughts and prayers to you!!


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## mellowbo

Marj, the specialist you saw seems to really know what he/she is talking about. I'm really glad that all the tests will be done at the same time and, like you said, while he is asymptomatic. I'm so sorry his alts didn't fall faster but, alas, he will be fine.
YOU ARE SUCH A GREAT MOMMY!!!
We love you and Ricky.
Carole


----------



## Posh's Mom

Marj you are amazing. Ricky is so blessed to have you. Absolutely. You are incredible. Best.


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## MaddiesMom

Marj- I'm glad you got in to see the specialist. I'm sorry Ricky has to have exploratory surgery, but at least you will get some answers and the best treatment for whatever is diagnosed. I'm sure they'll do some clotting tests on Ricky prior to surgery. That's the main thing. The fact that he's asymptomatic now will be in his favor for the surgery. Plus, he's young and sturdy. You definitely don't want to wait until he's sickly and older, as the risk then would be worrisome. If you're going to a vet hospital that has all the necessary equipment, they should definitely know what they're doing, so that's another positive. Just keep good thoughts, and you and Ricky will get through this. We're all here with you in prayers and spirit. 

You can definitely do a home made diet for Ricky. The recipe that Daniel printed was similar to the one Panda's vet gave me. I did change the ground beef to white meat chicken, but otherwise, its pretty similar. Plus, if you don't feel like cooking, there are several good quality kibbles that are around 18%-20% protein. The most important thing is that the protein be of high quality, which I'm sure you know. I'm sending lots of positive thoughts and prayers your way.:hug:


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## juliav

Marj,

I am glad that you finally saw the specialst. I know it's was a hard decision on your part to go with the surgery and biopsy, but at least you will know what's going on. Ricky is one lucky boy to have such a wonderful and caring mommy. 

:hug: and puppy kisses


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## mellowbo

Marj, I was just wondering, did the specialists say what things could cause his alts to be so high? Is the thought that it is from either MVD, a shunt or infection? Could there be any other cause???
Carole
xxoox


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## Cheryl

Wow. I though I had already posted to this, but it looks like it didn't take.

Anyway Marj, I know how much you have struggled to get this far in your quest to find answers for Ricky. My prayers will be with you to get a fast surgery time and some treatable answers. 

More hugs to you and Ricky!!!


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## Missy

Hugs Marj. cuddles Ricky.


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## marjrc

Thank you very much, everyone! You are all so sweet and I feel better having read your kind comments. (((hugs))) 

Oh yes, Jeanne, they will be doing a clotting test before the surgery. I feel confident in this place. Every dog owner I know that has ever had to go there says it's great, so that's reassuring.

Carole asked: _"Marj, I was just wondering, did the specialists say what things could cause his alts to be so high? Is the thought that it is from either MVD, a shunt or infection? Could there be any other cause???"_

Yes, either MVD, shunt(s), either macro or micro, inside or outside the liver, but not an infection. There'd be other signs and they just aren't there.

Yesterday, I rec'd a book I had ordered from Amazon, "Home-Prepared Dog and Cat Diets, the Healthful Alternative" from Donald R. Strombeck. Haven't had time to read it yet, nor the diets the specialist faxed to us, but will do that over the weekend.


----------



## Missy

Hey Marj. I just thought of something for you. You know I am always messing with my boys foods. But the basic is the raw medallions but cooked. I discovered that Jasper does better on less protein and some more carbs (how I figured this I don't know--LOL) Cash does best on all protein all the time (of course he is my dog and jasper is my human furkid) 

So believe me when I have read these liver threads, I have wondered if Jas could have a liver problem, but the vets say no and see no reason to test... But I continue to feed him one less medallion a day and make up for it with potato and green beans. If we have had pasta or rice he will get that instead of the potatoes. But I just keep a bag of grated frozen potatoes(do you have Whole Foods in Canada?-- if so 365 brand) and chopped green beans in the freezer. I just pull out the medallions and the veggies and microwave them together and then cut up the medallions. 

Anyway, I just know how busy you are and adding the home cooking may be hard so something like this--after you read the recipes for liver issues for amounts may be a good alternative, at least some of the time. 

And before anyone pipes in and says "not to cook the raw." I have investigated and corresponded with my Vet and the Company and both have said, it does lose a small amount of nutrients by cooking. The ground bones in the medallions pose no danger if cooked. And I do try and get them to eat some kibble. 

I am envious of you that can do the raw-- but when we did that is when Cash got sick. May have had nothing to do with it. But in my reading I read that in a healthy dog raw is probably the best, but in an immune compromised dog, wether it be a passing ailment or an ongoing condition there is danger of them not being able to fight off the protozoa and germs that can be found in raw that a healthy dog could. 

sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now---- I really just wanted to offer you an alternative to home prep. Hugs again to you and yours.


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## LuvCicero

Thinking of you and Ricky and praying all will turn out okay!!


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## Leslie

Hugs to you, Marj and special belly rubs for Ricky


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## Jill in Mich

Glad to hear you have found a specialist that you have confidence in and it sounds like you're on the right path to getting some answers. Hugs to you and Ricky. I hope this can all be put behind you soon.


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## Gracie's Mom

Marj ~ So sorry I haven't been keeping up lately. So, excited to hear you will be finding out what is going on with Ricky. I know this has got to make you a little apprehensive, but it will be so much easier to help him once you have answers. I really do know the feelings you are experiencing. But try to relax. You have done so well throughout all of this. He is so lucky to have you.

Please let me know if I can help you in any way.


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## Mijo's Mom

Marj, we're all going through this with you if that is any comfort -- not just the ones with liver dogs but all of us. :grouphug: to you, be strong and know that you're doing the right thing. You will finally be able to find out what's going on with the little guy. As always, my thoughts and prayers are with you.

Connie


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## marjrc

I really appreciate everyone's concerns. The hugs feel great, thank you!!  I'm sure to be a nervous wreck the night before his surgery, whenever that is, but I know that you'll all be with me in spirit. 

Missy, I still have the N.V. medallions, though it's been a couple of weeks since I've given any and I did think of cooking them up, as you suggest. Why not? They are complete and not that high in protein and yes, I will start giving Ricky some carbs, such as rice and perhaps pasta. I took out double the chicken breasts we'll need for our (the humans that is) dinner tonight, so will cook some up for the Rickster and add the things I need to that. I have measurements and recommendations by the canine nutritionist, but it's the first time I've heard of using pearl Tapioca as the source of carbs! They use tapioca in all their recipes. But you know, I've been learning so much about this, that I pretty much know what protein sources, what carb sources and what fat sources might be best for Ricky. My brain is fried from all the reading and yet I still have more to learn! :suspicious:

The things we do, eh? 

I totally love to hear what others recommend, so please dont' be shy and let me know what you think. It just might be very helpful.


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## MaddiesMom

Marj- My liver dog Panda preferred pasta over rice. Its just a matter of figuring out what carb they like best. If Ricky's a good eater, you'll have no trouble. Its the picky ones that make things hard. You're right about what we do for our dogs.....I give more thought about providing Maddie with a healthy diet than I do my diet!


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## Missy

Oh my boys goes wild for Pasta. It is as if it is raw meat. It just proves that I don't think there is any creature in the world that doesn't like pasta. 

Marj, I was thinking you could use the cooked medallions as a base (kind of like you would chicken) but at least it has all the other balanced nurtients in it (even if they are depleted a bit by cooking. It still is mostly protein so you would have to add some pasta/rice/potato/tapioca(which is casava a good cuban food) and maybe some veggies. If you have a brazillan population where you are it is easy to find frozen casava. 

Good luck sweety and don't let your head spin with all this info. I think you are probably right that you know Ricky better than anyone and you can make this work.


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## LuvCicero

((((((hugs))))))


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## marjrc

Well, crap. I'm really sore today. Neck, shoulders and back are aching badly. Had to drive to Ste. Hyacinthe for my oldest's soccer game (hubby is out of town) and it's an hour's drive there and back. Got home at midnight. Now I get a call from the vet hospital - where? - in Ste. Hyacinthe, and they want to see Ricky and I this afternoon!

They want to do another ultrasound and needle biopsy as well as a consultation - $$$$ - and said we might be there about 3 hours. Oh joy. I hated coming back from there last night as it was dark and very late, so at least I won't have to deal with that today, but hopefully, I won't be stuck in too much rush hour traffic. Thankfully, the days of Ricky drooling and vomiting in the car are long over!! lol 

The girl on the phone told me that only after we meet the doc today will we all decide if we go through with the rest and how much it will cost. At least, this place is cheaper by far, than the clinic I had first had an ultrasound done on Ricky last Dec. Diff. of about $200 just for that! I'll take it. Even if it means driving for two hours every time we go. lol 

Will write later if my shoulders hold up......


----------



## Missy

hugs Marj.


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## Lina

Marj, I will be thinking of both you today! Hope it goes well. :hug:


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## casperkeep

Marj...sorry i have not been keeping up on Ricky. I hope things are going good for you both!!! Hugs to you!!!


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## Leslie

Marj, I understand the driving thing. The specialty hospital Shadow was in was 1.5 hrs. away (w/no traffic problems) My thoughts and prayers are w/you and Ricky today.


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## ama0722

Marj, I hope you get answers and good news for all that driving today <hugs>


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## mellowbo

Oh Marj, you dear, dear mommy! I hope your neck and shoulders survive the driving. I will be anxiously awaiting the news!!
Hugs to you and Ricky.
Carole
xxoox


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## MaddiesMom

Oh gosh, Marj- So sorry to hear you're suffering with pain with all your driving. I hope you get some good results from the specialist. If they get some diagnostic results from the needle biopsy, would this mean no exploratory surgery? I know needle biopsies are "hit and miss", but if you're lucky, you can get some tissue that shows what is going on. I hope that's the case with Ricky and you won't need to go any further. We'll all hoping and praying for the best!


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## Poornima

I am so sorry that you are so sore and hurting. I do hope and pray that you get the answers from the specialist. Good luck to you and Ricky. :hug:


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## Trish

Hi Marj..We are praying for some good answers for Ricky and that the specialist can help make some of these concerns less scary. The driving is tough and I can understand how you much feel especially since there is so much on your mind as your traveling those long distances. Tension really shows up in the neck/shoulder areas during stressful times, but we are thinking only good thoughts about the outcome of your visit and a positive outlook for the future. Trish


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## mckennasedona

Marj,
I'm sorry to hear you aren't feeling well and that you have to make another two hour trip. I hope the visit goes well for you and for Ricky. Sending hugs your way.


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## Gracie's Mom

Marj - I will be praying for good news, and some answers to this seemingly endless process.

Drink lots of water. During my stressed out times I often forget and then my whole body pays for it. 

I will be anxiously awaiting to hear some news. :hug:


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## JanB

Marj, I'm thinking of you this afternoon and hope you are able to report back some good and hopeful news!

I'm thinking maybe a massage is on order? You so deserve it! :hug:


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## juliav

Marj,

We are thinking of you and Ricky today and hoping for some good news.


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## mintchip

juliav said:


> Marj,
> 
> We are thinking of you and Ricky today and hoping for some good news.


:grouphug:Just checking back in. Hope all goes well:grouphug:


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## ruthann

Marj and Ricky, Annabelle and I are sending continuous positive vibs your way. You are being carried in our hearts through these hard times. Annabelle sends lots of healing kisses!! Ruthann and Annabelle


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## marjrc

Thanks everyone!! You know, I AM due for a massage - big time!! Thanks for the reminder, Jan. Hubby got me a spa pkg. for Mothers' Day and I still haven't booked it. Sheesh! lol

LONG day, but Ricky got his u/sound, no needle biopsy as they didn't see that it would help any. His liver is a bit on the small side, which the other place had seen back in Dec. (but I'd forgotten about that), but no shunts at all visible. They are suspecting an inflammation of sorts. I agreed to do the exploratory, but asked they wait until after July 1st. One, his insurance policy is switching over and effective then (and we should be getting more money back so it's REALLY useful to wait) and I'll be working 4 days/week the next two weeks and I'd prefer to not have to deal with all this at once. Too much for this poor bod and mind to take! Anyway, it's nothing urgent, so they said they'd call me tomorrow and we'll book something soon. 

I decided to do the bile acid test at my vet's instead of there. They wanted to keep him overnight and test it tomorrow, but it meant him staying there and most likely being very stressed about it, only to have me go BACK to pick him up afterwards. I'm not super woman, so just couldn't see myself doing that. lol I go to my vet's, they take his blood, come home, feed Ricky at a relaxed pace, go back two hours later, they take more blood and that's it. The vet is less than a 10 min. drive from me. Nice.  They'll just fax the results to the hospital.

I'm also to give Ricky 1/4 tablet/day of a 250mg. Ursodiol, which will help protect his liver. I give it for 3 weeks, up until he'll likely have the procedure.

I drank enough today, thanks Karen!  Mind you, I could sure use a REAL drink right about now! I'm beat. lol 

Leslie, I thought about you a lot today. I remember how you did a heck of a lot of driving every day with Shadow being so ill. Not a fun time for you. There was traffic coming home, so it took me 1.5 hrs. Next time, I'm making sure Ralph is around to drive!! 

Thank you for all your love and support! It makes me smile and feel better.  Now to go and try and get all that goop off Ricky's belly. They sure don't do a great job in washing it all off! 'night.


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## Missy

aww More HUGS Marj.


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## Me&2Girls

Oh Marj, at least it isn't bad news. I'm hoping that the meds for the suspected inflammation do the trick and you can manage the rest with diet and supplements. Poor girl, you must be exhausted. I think you were smart to wait on the blood test, little guy doesn't need any more stress and neither do you.


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## LuvCicero

Oh Marj, I wished you lived nearby. We could take a night swim in the heated pool. It relaxes you all over and you sleep like a baby. I hope you can get some rest during the next few weeks and try not to stress to much. Take care of yourself!!


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## JanB

Oh Marj, what a day! But good news that no shunt was found! You are a wise woman to do whatever works best for you. Sometimes 'they' just don't look at what is most convenient and doable for a patient (including human patients too!) so I am glad you spoke up and did what was best for all of you. I'm so glad you decided to wait for the surgery and to have the blood work done at your regular vet who is close by. I know Ricky is happier too.

What about books on CD for the drive? Have you tried them? Most libraries have a good selection and it's free! I used to have to drive to Indianapolis, a 7 hr round trip, frequently and books on tape saved my sanity.

Lots of hugs and prayers for you and Ricky, esp that the surgery goes well!

Now go have a drink and schedule that spa day SOON!


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## MaddiesMom

Marj- Glad you're back safely. I'd wait too for the surgery if that meant a reduction in costs. A couple of weeks won't make a difference. I'm glad no shunts were seen. Shunt surgery can really be expensive. I hope you can get some rest and relaxation. You *so* deserve it!:hug:


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## Cheryl

Marj--I just had a galss of wine on your behalf. I wish you were here to join me. We could talk for hours about our glorious pets, all that we do for them, how it is so worth it, etc. I wish that I lived closer so that I could attend these difficult doctor visits with you. I will virtually hold your hand for the next one. (((HUGS)))


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## mellowbo

Hey Marj, I'm so excited that it is not a shunt!! I wish they could just analyze some blood to see what the inflammation is. Since there doesn't appear to be a shunt does that mean no special diet? I'm feeling good vibes!!!
Here's to you and Ricky!
Carole


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## Trish

Marj..I think you need to book that massage asap!! There is no better time to take care of YOU than NOW...:hug: Trish


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## Judy A

I agree....get that massage! Glad to hear there isn't a shunt....


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## Leslie

Cheryl said:


> Marj--I just had a galss of wine on your behalf. I wish you were here to join me. *We could talk for hours about our glorious pets, all that we do for them, how it is so worth it, etc. I wish that I lived closer so that I could attend these difficult doctor visits with you. I will virtually hold your hand for the next one. (((HUGS)))*


Ditto :hug::kiss:


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## ama0722

Marj- I am glad you are finding a vet to help reach a conclusion. While you are very stressed waiting, it has to at least feel good you are in capable hands.

Amanda (who thinks that massage sounds great!)


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## Posh's Mom

Just getting caught up on this thread Marj. Want you to know I'm thinking of you. You most definitely deserve that massage.


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## marjrc

Thanks, ladies. Guess we all know just how great a good massage can feel.  Didn't have that drink yet and heading to bed soon as I'm just beat. Maybe will have some nice rose tomorrow night. Oh shoot! Can't ..... tomorrow night we have tix for a soccer game between Canada and St. Vincent and the Grenadines! They are playing in Mtl. to qualify for the 2010 World Cup. 

And that was MY idea to get tix....... ah well. lol O.k...... Saturday night it is! Have to work Sat., so anyone care to join me in this 'virtual world' we often live in, for a glass Sat. night? Heck, that soak in your pool, Dale, sounds divine!!! :biggrin1:

Thanks for the lift. (((hugs)))


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## Poornima

Marj, looks like the vet has answers for you and it is great that it isn't the shunt. 

Take care. :hug: Good luck!


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## Cheryl

Saturday night it is. We will all relax in our best ways to support you. I will go to a baseball game, cheer loudly for my team, and love the night no matter what. And now I'll be thinking of you, too.


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## mintchip

Cheryl said:


> Marj--I just had a galss of wine on your behalf. I wish you were here to join me. We could talk for hours about our glorious pets, all that we do for them, how it is so worth it, etc. I wish that I lived closer so that I could attend these difficult doctor visits with you. I will virtually hold your hand for the next one. (((HUGS)))


:grouphugitto :grouphug:


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## Julie

I've been thinking about you Marj and your Ricky----:hug:

It sounds like the stress is getting to you,and you need to relax and be pain free----:hug:

It sounds like the specialists are doing their best and I'm sending good thoughts your way for the most positive outcome there is-------we love ya!

OOPS!Did you get that ear lickie from Quincy???:laugh:He sends you one!


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## marjrc

No time for a spa treatment yet, I'm afraid, but soon. I HOPE!  Thanks for that glass of wine though. It was great! lol

I am soooooo worried I'm doing the wrong thing, by putting Ricky through this. Really. I know, I'm going nuts with this - back and forth, back and forth. ARGHH!! :frusty:


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## JanB

Oh Marj, sweetie, :hug: Please don't do that to yourself. I've been so impressed at how thoughtful and carefully considered every stage of Ricky's treatment has been. You have tried conservative treatments first before even considering exploratory surgery. Always a hallmark of good decision-making regarding medical matters.

You are the BEST Hav mom! I know it is in most women's natures to worry and second-guess but I do hope and pray that you will find peace. 

You have lots and lots of people here praying for you and Ricky! Now go pick up the phone and at least get that spa day on the calendar!


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## Mijo's Mom

Marj, I know how you're feeling as I have the same worries with Mijo.... you have tried less invasive routes and although results are positive, they haven't remedied the situation completely.

As long as Ricky's pre-op tests come back saying he can have the surgery with anesthesia everything will be okay. You will finally get some concrete answers as to what is wrong with your baby so you can take actions that you KNOW will help him once the exploratory is done.

Thoughts and prayers, as always.

Connie


----------



## marjrc

You gals are really sweet. Thank you for the vote of confidence.  I will try, though it's on my mind an awful lot these days! I think that if he's o.k., has no symptoms, then why am I looking for trouble?? sigh...... 

I almost lost it today when I said out loud what was really worrying me. I'm afraid the stay in the hospital, in a crate, in strange, noisy surroundings and away from his family is going to change Ricky somehow. Change his character, you know?  When our tabby, Gigi, was in for a 2-night stay at the age of 18 months, she came home a totally different cat. She had lost her spirit and it broke my heart. The stay had terrified her, I know. 

I know a dog lives day to day and so long as he gets some attention, he'll be happy, well... at least i hope he will be. He'll be tired and in pain the night after the surgery so might likely sleep a lot, but the whole day before, that night and then waiting all day for his turn in surgery, well.... those are going to be hard on him, I'm sure. Oh crap. I shouldn't be dwelling on that, but I can't help it! Waaaaaa!


----------



## Cheryl

Marj, will Ricky have to spend a couple days in the hospital if they don't find anything grossly abnormal and just do the biopsy? If so, I must have missed that part. Roxie went in the morning of surgery and was back in my arms by 4 PM. Of coarse she slept a lot of the day and all of that night.


----------



## maryam187

Marj :hug: I'm sorry, I haven't been able to keep up with this thread more frequently. I'm finally done with my exam and had time to read the last few pages here. I'm glad to read it isn't a shunt! Whatever you decide for Ricky's future, I'm wishing you guys well and hope it'll all turn out great. Sorry you and Ricky have to go through these drenching months of not knowing and worrying.


----------



## Missy

more hugs!!!


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## juliav

And more hugs. :hug:


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## MopTop Havanese

Hugs to you and Ricky!
When Stella had her liver biopsy, (at the same time as her spay), I dropped her off at 8am and picked her up at 5:30pm~ 
He shouldn't have to stay in the hospital overnight I hope!


----------



## mellowbo

Marj,
I didn't realize he had to spend 2 nights in the hospital. Please don't dwell on it. He will probably sleep a lot the first night too. The minute he's back in your arms he will forget all about it. It won't change him. Cats are different, they hold a grudge, lol. He will be fine!!! :hug: Do you know when he has the surgery? 
Carole


----------



## JanB

Oh Marj, I'm sorry, I can see why you are even more worried since you have had such a bad experience.

Can you make sure his surgery is the first one on the day's schedule so there is no waiting time? Did they say why he would have to spend the night prior to surgery? Is it possible to bring him in early the morning of surgery?

Is the place staffed at night? If not why couldn't you bring him home? You're right, he will probably be so sedated he will sleep all night anyway so why not sleep at home with you where he will be more comfortable?

I know a spay is different but I brought Tessa home rather than stay the night and she did just fine. I just had to promise to keep her crated and quiet. Which wasn't a problem at all, sleep was all she wanted to do.

And lastly I agree that dogs don't hold "grudges" and often have short memories or at least don't associate us with the memory. He will just be happy to see you!


----------



## ama0722

Marj- maybe talk to the vet and let them know your concern and they will help reassure you or come up with an alternative solution. I know a lot of times, they dont let you visit cause that will not allow the dog to rest. I bet they are just taking extra precautions by giving you a longer time line and just want to make sure Ricky gets the rest he needs.

Hugs,
Amanda


----------



## isshinryu_mom

marjrc said:


> I almost lost it today when I said out loud what was really worrying me. I'm afraid the stay in the hospital, in a crate, in strange, noisy surroundings and away from his family is going to change Ricky somehow. Change his character, you know?


:hug: Marj, you know you put into words exactly what I felt when Roxie broke her leg and had to be confined for so long. So, yes, I *DO* know how you feel. I can tell Ricky is being raised by someone who loves him and puts his needs at the front of her life. Though the medical issues he is going through are hard right now and probably having some impact on his personality, just from reading your posts for a couple of months I know you have the ability to help him through it. Just keep getting those feelings out by coming here and venting when you need to, asking for help, getting support and you (and Ricky) are going to be fine!


----------



## Mijo's Mom

Well said Ann! Marj, dogs live in the moment... they NEVER hold grudges. Please remember that you are doing all of this to make him better - don't feel bad about it. I wish I could be there with you during all of this. Remember we're here whenever you need us. *HUGS*

Connie


----------



## Gracie's Mom

Marj - When exactly is the biopsy? I totally understand your concerns about multiple nights. I agree with others - Dogs don't hold grudges, but cats often do. I'm sure he will be fine.

I had the same experience as Cheryl and Katie . . . When Gracie went in for her liver biopsy & spay together, I took her in at 8:30 a.m. and had her back at 5:00 p.m. I think it is a bit unusual that they want to keep him longer. Do they plan on doing multiple testing or more invasive surgery than a usual biopsy? Just curious as to why they want him for so long. Just more questions to ask. Maybe its because you live quite a distance and if something goes wrong (which most likely it wouldn't) that they would be able to help him right away vs. the 2 hour drive that you would have to make to get him there. I'm sure everything will go well. Think positive!! You are doing the best thing for him - learning about how you can treat his problem.


----------



## Laurief

Marj,
I am just catching up on this thread & the tears are flowing!! I know that this must be so hard for you!! I can say that yes - cats hold grudges, but I have never ever knows a dog to do so!!! He will be so drugged up from the surgery and any pain meds that they have him on, that he probably wont remember anything except you coming to get him when it is over.

We are sending you lots of furry hugs & licks - and you can share them with the pups!!!


----------



## havanesebyha

Marj sending lots of hugs and kisses your way ~ and hope you get to bring Ricky home the same day. :grouphug: :hug:


----------



## Leslie

Oh, Marj, how I wish you and Ricky weren't having to go through this. I keep you in my thoughts and prayers always. Be strong and know we're all with you :grouphug:


----------



## ruthann

Marj, lisa's comment makes sense to me. Why not just try the antibiotics before surgery? The ALT has gone down from 1800 to 388. That's seems to me to be sugnificant. Since you are following the treatment plan what would change if you have the exploritory surgery? I have no knowledge but if it were a shunt why would it keep getting better, slowly, but better. I think it is wise to be very causious. The best to you and Ricky. Ruthann


----------



## marjrc

My husband reminds me of the same thing..... that dogs do live in the moment and I shouldn't feel so guilty and worried. I will try.  Thank you for all your support! It really means a lot to me. 

There is no point in giving Ricky more antibiotics, I asked. If he had an infection, he'd be sick in other ways as well. Nothing indicates an infection. 

Vet called with results of his last bile acid test and it is at 98. It was at 99 back in Jan. , so that hasn't changed at all and that isn't a good sign. After eating, it shouldn't be more than 50. I had hoped...... This shows that his liver is indeed reacting every time he eats, so there has to be a reason and we need to find out what that is. I am more sure now of the surgery, though I still don't like it, but I do see that it might actually be helpful. 

Ralph will bring Ricky in on the 8th, as I will have to work that day, and it's just as well. I don't think I would have a very calm energy about me, leaving him there.  Yes, it is a very long drive... an hour each way, without rush hour traffic. I am going to hope and pray that he does get the procedure done the next day. Because it is a teaching hospital that also handles ER's, there is a very slight possibility that Ricky's surgery might get pushed to later in the day or even the next day. The specialist just wanted me to be warned, not that it will necessarily happen.

I could pay 50% more somewhere else, just as far (about an hour's drive as well) to get it all done in one day, but everyone I speak to tells me this hospital in Ste. Hyacinthe is the best place to have as many specialists/technicians on site at the same time. In the end, that might just be for the best.


----------



## Leeann

Marj, I always seem to be at a loss for words when ever I read this thread. You have been down such a long road with this and are such a good fur mom to both Ricky & Sammy. Please know that we continue to keep you in our thoughts and prayers. :hug:


----------



## Cheryl

Marj, I know that this has been very difficult for you. I can only hope that July provides you with answers that are fixable. I am marking my calendar. You will be in my thoughts and prayers.


----------



## mintchip

:grouphug::grouphug: *Marj and family!* :grouphug::grouphug:


----------



## Me&2Girls

Aww darn, I was hoping that you could avoid surgery - but sounds like you've got him scheduled at an excellent place. Hugs to you all!


----------



## MaddiesMom

Marj- We'll all be with you and Ricky in spirit and prayers. I hope you get the answers needed. Hugs to you and Ricky. :grouphug:


----------



## Lynn

Leeann said:


> Marj, I always seem to be at a loss for words when ever I read this thread. You have been down such a long road with this and are such a good fur mom to both Ricky & Sammy. Please know that we continue to keep you in our thoughts and prayers. :hug:


Marj,
I hate to copy what Leeann says...but I feel the same way, I just keep hoping when I read it Ricky will be all better. 
I have had a very busy summer so it is hard to keep up with the forum. Just wanted you to know you and Ricky are in my thoughts and prayers. We send you lots of :hug::hug:


----------



## JanB

Marj, I am sure you have made the right decision; having him at a great hospital with the experts is much more important than the timing of the surgery.

You already know how much you remain in our thoughts and prayers, and how much we pray that you will report back with some very good news after his surgery.


----------



## Leslie

Marj~ You're the best mommy to Ricky (and Sammy, too). I know how hard this is for you. But, it sounds like you've found a great hospital and doctors to do it. Also, just keep in mind that Ricky is strong and in pretty good shape right now to deal w/the effects of surgery. It is so much better to do it now and know what's going on and how to deal w/it, rather than wait for him to become compromised and have to go through it then.

I will continue to keep you and Ricky in my prayers :hug:


----------



## Gracie's Mom

Marj - I am so glad you have set a date, and know there is an ending to your worries . . . well at least a point where you know the wondering will end. You will be treating his exact needs when you get the results. This is actually great news. Try not to worry about his surgery. He will be fine. He will love you just the same, if not more because he will miss you so much while he is gone. Ricky & you will be in my prayers.


----------



## Lina

Marj, big hugs to you and Ricky! I am sure his surgery will go well and I'm happy for you that you will get some answers soon! :grouphug:


----------



## dboudreau

I sure hope you get some answers, :grouphug: to your family


----------



## LuvCicero

((((hugs)))) and still thinking of you during all this.


----------



## Posh's Mom

what's the latest? thinking of you, my favorite canadians...best


----------



## marjrc

I am very moved by all the love, support and advice from everyone here. THANK YOU ! 

Things are good. Ricky is doing just great and I'm trying to not worry about it. I have to work 4 days this week, long days, so the time will go by quickly.

I will be asking the hospital, but do any of you know how on earth they remove staples after a surgery?? Ricky's to have staples, they told me, but won't they hurt like the dickens when it's time to remove them? Anyway, we'll deal with it when the time comes of course, but I am curious.

Finally, a beautiful day here in Montreal today. Amy, you'd love the Intern'l Jazz Fest de Montreal going on now.  1000's of people, dancing, sitting, wandering the downtown streets of the city and listening to 1st class international jazz artists. Everyone's friendly and having a blast.


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## SUZIEQ637

Hi Marj,

I have just read all the posts about Ricky. I'm so sorry that he has to go through all of this and I can imagine how hard this must be for you. 

I am new to this site and completely bowled over by the love and caring sent out from everyone. 

Just to let you know the I too am thinking of Ricky and sending hugs to you.

Gracie's Mom


----------



## JanB

Marj, there is a special tool for removing staples - it's no more painful than removing regular stitches.

Your days sound long and stressful but if it keeps your mind from going where it doesn't need to go then maybe that is a good thing. 

My DH would be in heaven at that Jazz Fest! Sounds like fun and maybe another distraction for you!

(((hugs)))


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## Gracie's Mom

Marj ~ I had two C-Sections. I had staples, and there was NO PAIN whatsoever when they were removed. In fact, it felt good.

It is going to be confusing with 2 Gracie's Moms!!!


----------



## mellowbo

Marj,
Just a quick note to let you know we are thinking about you and Ricky. Our prayers and love are always with you!!!
Carole, Vinny and Little Lulu.
xxoox


----------



## Missy

thinking of you and Ricky!!! He will be fine and you will know so much more about how to keep him fine for years to come. Hugs from me and the furfaces.


----------



## Janet Zee

Marj.........Everytime I look at my two babies, I think of you and Ricky and what you are going through. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your babies.


----------



## SMARTY

Just trying to keep up with what is going on with you and Ricky. Our thoughts are still with you. Staples are a snap to remove, no problem or pain when mine were removed.


----------



## Cheryl

Ricky's day is right around the corner and I wanted you to know, Marj, that we are thinking of you and Ricky.


----------



## Julie

I was thinking of you and Ricky too Marj----you know we love ya!:grouphug:

Quincy sends ear lickies to you and a few RLH's for Ricky!


----------



## Laurief

Wow Marj, I cannot believe that this week is finally here. You have been so strong and I know that you will finally have some answers as to how to help your little Ricky! I hope you know that you and Ricky have the most incredible group of people and puppies sending prayers, kisses, licks, hugs and anything else we can manage to send to you! 
Good thoughts your way my friend from the 4 L's!!!!:hug::kiss:


----------



## isshinryu_mom

Just checking in on Ricky... hugs for you and your furry boy!!!


----------



## mintchip

:hug::grouphug:Marj,Ricky and family:grouphug::hug:


----------



## irnfit

I've been working crazy hours and I am catching up on this thread. I sending big hugs to Ricky and you. Know that we are all thinking of you guys.


----------



## MaddiesMom

Marj- I have the 8th marked on my calendar and will be thinking of you and Ricky and sending lots of prayers your way.:hug:


----------



## Leslie

Sending good thoughts and prayers for you and Ricky, Marj :hug:


----------



## marjrc

Your support, love and concern is very much appreciated and felt all the way over here. Thank you so much for the kind words, hugs and ear lickies. :biggrin1: I've had a stressful past few weeks and though working full time the past two weeks has been a good distraction from my worries about Ricky, it's been rough. The whole household was in chaos! lol Not to mention, that I had little time to come on here and play with the best forum members there are!!! I'm only working one day this week. Phew! :biggrin1: My mom's health isn't the best, I'm having way too many aches and pains these days and am going a little nuts over that, hubby works way too hard, the house needs a ton of attention and the kids aren't the most helpful lately.... sigh....... 

Ralph is bringing Ricky in on Tues, the 8th, but they won't operate until the 9th. I hope! i was warned that if there are emergencies, his procedure would get pushed up and could even be on Thursday. I'd hate for that to happen so am hoping for the best. I think it might even be a good thing that he'll be kept a night afterwards as I can't imagine Sammy leaving him alone very much after his absence. Sammy will have to play carefully for the first few days Ricky is back, I'd think. 

I am very happy to hear about the removal of the staples not being such a painful thing. Thank you!! :whoo:

I've been noticing that Ricky seems to get out of breath and tired more quickly than before. Not sure if it's just me, though hubby thinks so too, but maybe it's nothing related to his liver. BUT, if it is then it's one more reason to get to the bottom of all this. I feel more and more sure that we need to do this, so now I just want it all to be over and done with so we can hopefully get some answers! 

Thank you all once again. Each and every one of your notes and thoughts mean a lot to me. :grouphug: :hug:


----------



## Missy

Marj, I will be thinking of Ricky and your family over the next few days.... hugs.


----------



## LuvCicero

Thinking of you and praying for good news. The not knowing for me is always hard to deal with. Hopefully, you will get answers and find out the best way to handle Ricky in the future. You're a wonderful Mom to go this extra mile.!!!!


----------



## Judy A

Prayers for Ricky and your family, Marj......hopefully you will get some answers.


----------



## juliav

Thinking of you Marj and Ricky. :hug:


----------



## JASHavanese

This has been such a long road for you all. That has to make it twice as hard. We're sending prayers for your baby


----------



## Lina

Marj, I will be thinking of both of you! :grouphug:


----------



## Jill in Mich

Marj, you and Ricky will be in my prayers and thoughts this week. Wish we were closer to provide more support.


----------



## mckennasedona

Marj, I'm continuing to keep you and Ricky in my thoughts and prayers. I hope that this surgery will give you some definite answers. You and Ricky have been through so much. Sending hugs

:grouphug:


----------



## mellowbo

Marj,
I just want to say that my prayers are with you and Ricky. He is so darn cute!! You are the best mommy ever!!
Carole
xxoox


----------



## Gracie's Mom

Marj - I can't stop thinking of you and Ricky. You are doing the right thing, and he will recover fine from surgery, I'm sure. I'm anxious to hear the results so you can begin treating him for exactly what is wrong. I know your mind is going to be thinking of him constantly, and I will be praying for you during that time because I know it can be such an unnerving time. I wish I could do more for you, but please know you are going to be in my thoughts more than you realize in the next few days/week (until you get the results). Please PM me if you want to chat.

Ricky is so lucky you care about him as much as you do.


----------



## mintchip

:grouphug::grouphug:*Marj,Ricky and family*:grouphug::grouphug:


----------



## Missy

good luck tomorrow Marj and Ricky. Make your mom proud little havanese and be well!


----------



## isshinryu_mom

Healing wishes for Ricky!!! And hugs for marj.... will be thinking of you both!:grouphug:


----------



## Laurief

Marj - the best I can say to you today is :hug::kiss::kiss::grouphug::kiss:
WE ARE ALL HERE FOR YOU!!!


----------



## JanB

Marj, I'm thinking of you today and saying a prayer that all goes well. (((hugs)))


----------



## Leeann

Marj, we are keeping you & Ricky in our thoughts & prayers today :hug:


----------



## isshinryu_mom

Hope you can feel all the well wishes and positive vibes coming your way today!!!


----------



## Leslie

:hug::kiss: (((((Marj & Ricky))))) :kiss::hug:

Lots of prayers from me for you both, today!


----------



## Mijo's Mom

Good luck today little guy!  Marj, let us know what the vet says. We're all praying for the best possible outcome for Ricky! He'll be just fine, I know it!

Connie


----------



## mckennasedona

Marj, thinking of and praying for Ricky today. Sending hugs your way too.


----------



## RickR

Max and Bessie are sending hugs to Ricky.


----------



## Trish

Hi Marj..We're all here with you and Ricky in spirit and in prayer and hope to hear how things went for all the BETTER!! Licks from all of us Ragones..especially the extra sloppy ones from Happy, Lucky and Ricky


----------



## Me&2Girls

Hugs to you and Ricky - let us know how he is as soon as you hear. Your DH is a sweetie to take him in.


----------



## kelrobin

Marj
Just realized this thread has been going on for a long time and I missed all the latest . . . so sorry for everything you, Ricky, and your family have been going through. I pray that the surgery goes well, they find out the problem so little Ricky can get better and life can get rosier. It seems like the peaks in our life tend to offset the valleys, so you are now ready for many peaks!!

I am like you . . . always worry that my boys will hold it against me when they are left at the vet's or the boarders or from grooming. I think that is the great thing about dogs that I did read on this site . . . they were just born with a "get over it" gene and they don't hold grudges. No matter how scary it is, the LOVE shines through and Ricky will have a great homecoming. He will fall back in love with all of you again with wags and kisses! :whoo: We are thinking of you all and can't wait to hear how things go.


----------



## mintchip

:grouphug::grouphug: Sending prayers,healing thoughts and love :grouphug::grouphug:


----------



## Lina

Thinking of all of you today, Marj! I hope the surgery goes well!


----------



## Missy

Marj, keeping you and Ricky in my prayers.


----------



## MopTop Havanese

Marj~
Just a quick note to let you know that the entire Mop
Top crew is thinking of Ricky today~~~


----------



## EstrellaVila

Marj, sending lots of prayers to little Ricky.


----------



## MaddiesMom

Marj- I'm thinking of you and Ricky and sending lots of hugs and prayers your way~:hug:


----------



## juliav

Marj,

We are sending good wishes, healing vibes and puppy kisses your way. :grouphug:


----------



## Cheryl

I just got home, Marj! Any word on how Ricky is doing? Here is another shipment of hugs and prayers.....


----------



## Julie

I've been thinking about you Marj and Ricky:hug:
I'm sending all good thoughts for an easy answer and Ricky to heal quickly. I think this was the right time to go through with this---best wishes and kisses your way:kiss::hug::kiss::hug:


----------



## marjrc

Well........ what a frustrating day! Ralph brought Ricky in and then waited and waited to hear about when he MIGHT be operated on tomorrow. They were backlogged and hubby told them that if it would be a day or two later, then we'd return and not put Ricky through staying in a cage for all that time, just waiting. 

Ralph was there fro 3+ hours and then was finally told that it might only be Thurs. maybe even Friday, so....... back home they came. They at least did Ricky's blood test to see if it will coagulate well and checked him out. They offered to keep him and not charge for the extra night(s) since it was their fault they were behind schedule, but we don't care about that. We'd much rather make the long drive there (one hr. each way) than have Ricky in a hospital environment for days where he'd no doubt be pretty stressed.

They did tell hubby that Ricky was so adorable and well liked by the staff, that they didn't think he'd be in his crate very often. How nice! :biggrin1: So, it was pretty much a waste of a day. I am to call tomorrow afternoon to see what their schedule looks like and perhaps get a more definite answer as to when the procedure will occur. Estimate ranges from $1700-$2100. Ouch! Thank goodness for our insurance plan! 

I was pretty stressed all morning, before Ralph got Ricky and headed out there. I was so glad it wasn't me going because I knew I'd be quite upset. I was near to tears thinking about it all, but now it looks like I will be the one driving Ricky there after all. I'll make the best of it and maybe even drag my daughter along as a distraction. At least I know Ricky will be in good hands over there.

Thank you all soooooooo much for your prayers and love. There are so many other Havs that have worse issues than this. At least Ricky is behaving healthily. I keep thinking of you, Leslie, and can't imagine doing all this with a very ill dog. We do what we have to do, but you were very courageous caring for Shadow the way you did. 

O.k............. I've rambled on too long as it is, but wanted to keep you posted. I will write in only once Ricky is actually there and undergoing the surgery. Oh! Another good thing. They will allow me to only bring him early the morning of, wont' have to leave him there overnight before. Yaaaaaaaaay!


----------



## Julie

I'm sorry they didn't go "by the plan". Goodness that must be frustrating--but it sounds like there is an up side to it all as well. Ricky has less time in a pen/cage, the staff adore him and he doesn't get extra days there. Remember we will keep you in our thoughts and prayers till we hear he has had his procedure and is safely back home in your arms!:kiss::hug:


----------



## Lina

Marj, how frustrating! I'm glad you decided to take him home instead of leaving him there for two days. Please keep us posted! :hug:


----------



## good buddy

Oh too bad Marj. That's a long day to make such a drive and then have to wait for hours only to be told they can't do it yet! I understand how you feel. I get stressed about things too and wouldn't enjoy driving him there by myself. So now do you check back before leaving on Thursday? It would be a drag to go then and be told to come back Friday!


What insurance plan do you have?


----------



## Laurief

Marj, I am so sorry that this is so frustrating for you. It sure does sound like Ricky is well loved there, so that is a wonderful thing! I am sure he will get checked on regularly by everyone, just cause they want to see his cute face! The good new is that you wont have to leave him the night before, which is really a plus! 
The three L's asked me to tell Ricky to hang in there, and make some new friends, and in the end he will get SO many hugs and loves from Mommy that it will be all worth it!!!!


----------



## irnfit

How frustrating! You think they would offer you a discount for your trouble. We'll all be waiting to hear what happens.


----------



## marjrc

good buddy said:


> So now do you check back before leaving on Thursday? It would be a drag to go then and be told to come back Friday!
> What insurance plan do you have?


Yes, Christy. I will be calling later today to see what the schedule looks like. With the price of gas these days, it costs us about $25 of gas each way! It's the driving through the city's rush hour that has me stressed, but I still prefer that than leaving Ricky there for nothing.

We have Pet Secure now, which used to be Pet Plan insurance. I got Ricky's insurance upgraded about a month ago, knowing he would be going through this. They cover $2500/per condition/year which is nice. There is a $100 deductible but that's o.k. compared to $300 he used to have. We have Sammy on a simpler, more economical plan since we don't think there will be any medical issues. Of course, we never know, but with Ricky it was obvious we would be spending a bit on the tests this coming year, so worth the change in his case.

Thank you everyone. Julie, there is an upside and I'm actually grateful. Laura, I relayed the msg. from the 3 L's and Ricky feels better now. :biggrin1:


----------



## Leslie

marjrc said:


> Well........ what a frustrating day! Ralph brought Ricky in and then waited and waited to hear about when he MIGHT be operated on tomorrow. They were backlogged and hubby told them that if it would be a day or two later, then we'd return and not put Ricky through staying in a cage for all that time, just waiting.
> 
> Ralph was there fro 3+ hours and then was finally told that it might only be Thurs. maybe even Friday, so....... back home they came. They at least did Ricky's blood test to see if it will coagulate well and checked him out. They offered to keep him and not charge for the extra night(s) since it was their fault they were behind schedule, but we don't care about that. We'd much rather make the long drive there (one hr. each way) than have Ricky in a hospital environment for days where he'd no doubt be pretty stressed.
> 
> They did tell hubby that Ricky was so adorable and well liked by the staff, that they didn't think he'd be in his crate very often. How nice! :biggrin1: So, it was pretty much a waste of a day. I am to call tomorrow afternoon to see what their schedule looks like and perhaps get a more definite answer as to when the procedure will occur. Estimate ranges from $1700-$2100. Ouch! Thank goodness for our insurance plan!
> 
> I was pretty stressed all morning, before Ralph got Ricky and headed out there. I was so glad it wasn't me going because I knew I'd be quite upset. I was near to tears thinking about it all, but now it looks like I will be the one driving Ricky there after all. I'll make the best of it and maybe even drag my daughter along as a distraction. At least I know Ricky will be in good hands over there.
> 
> Thank you all soooooooo much for your prayers and love. There are so many other Havs that have worse issues than this. At least Ricky is behaving healthily. *I keep thinking of you, Leslie, and can't imagine doing all this with a very ill dog. We do what we have to do, but you were very courageous caring for Shadow the way you did.*
> 
> O.k............. I've rambled on too long as it is, but wanted to keep you posted. I will write in only once Ricky is actually there and undergoing the surgery. Oh! Another good thing. They will allow me to only bring him early the morning of, wont' have to leave him there overnight before. Yaaaaaaaaay!


Marj~ I was able to do it, in part, because of the strength I gained from all of you here. I don't think I could have done it without all of the thoughts and prayers from this wonderful community. :grouphug:

Be certain I will continue to keep you and Ricky in my prayers. I know how hard this is but, he will come through just fine and you'll know exactly how best to care for him when it's all over. God bless and know we love you and Ricky! :kiss::hug:


----------



## mellowbo

Marj,
Our thoughts and prayers are with you and Ricky day by day, minute by minute. Soon this will be all over and just a memory. Time will heal Ricky and he will be just as good as new!!!
Carole, Lulu, and Vinny
xxoox


----------



## isshinryu_mom

:grouphug:That must of been frustrating.... I hope it will all be resolved soon.


----------



## good buddy

Oh Marj with the price of gas, I agree...ugh! Still wouldn't we all do this for our furbabies? I hate rush hour traffic too and I'm way out of practice for it living in a smaller city. Earlier this year I drove down to southern CA to visit my father and drove right through LA during rush hour traffic to visit a friend. It was really really scary but I felt so powerful after the fact! I hope the doc spends plenty of time with you when you have your appointment. It sounds like a very busy practice. We're all praying for Ricky.

I'm going to check out the PetSecure plan and see what they offer. On one hand I think Rufus just keeps having so many issues maybe I should get insurance. On the other hand, I think he must be about done for ahwile...ya know?


----------



## marjrc

Oh I understand about the insurance, Christy. You think that maybe, just maybe, it's going to be a waste of money, but then...... you just don't know. I dont' think I could make the decision for anyone else. It has to feel right. I am very grateful we have ours though. 

Spoke with the doc and I'm bringing Ricky in at 8:30 tomorrow morning. He's scheduled for 10:30, but that could change. She did say it's highly unlikely that he'll be pushed to Friday. She called him a "cutie patootie" and said he'll be out and about amongst the staff as they like him so much already.  Can we say "proud mamma" ? :biggrin1: If he does get the operation at 10:30, then he'll be pretty bushed for the day and I can get him Friday morning.

I'm no longer worried about him being there, so that's good. She convinced me, when I mentioned that maybe we didn't really HAVE to go through with all this, that the biopsy can show 3 diff. conditions right off the bat. Either he has one of those or he doesn't. If none of that stuff shows, then they can still see other things once they analyze the tissue samples they take, so all in all, it is very much worth doing. O.k... I just needed to clarify that ONE MORE TIME. Man, I can be stubborn! LOL

We didn't agree on what a healthy diet is, though, as she was pushing Hills L/D if he had one liver condition. Oh well, we shall see what we shall see. lol I do think that this new dairy protein diet he's on is a big help.... for now anyway.

Thank you all SOOOOOOOO much! I know I've said it many times, and I am overwhelmed by the love and concern you all have for us at this time and it is much appreciated. Please know we are very grateful for everything you've done for us, be it advice, helping us muddle through the confusion and worries, offers of prayers and oh, all those belly rubs and ear likkies!! Mustn't forget those.


----------



## Julie

I'll be thinking of you and Ricky tomorrow.:angel:

:kiss:Know we love you both!:kiss:


----------



## SMARTY

Marg, we will be thinking of you and Ricky. I just know all will go well.


----------



## juliav

Marj,

Good luck tomorrow, we will be thinking of you.


----------



## good buddy

We will all be thinking about you and Ricky tomorrow! I hope you get THE answer from this and can design a great plan for him. I hate how sometimes you just don't get any answers.... we want answers and good ones for you this time!


----------



## Missy

Oh Marj, I am so sorry for your frustrating day. But I love how this vets office sounds...no one but one vet in my office thinks my boys are special (and she is now my vet) they like the big dogs. Ricky sounds like he will be in very capable loving hands when the time comes. And I am sending out prayers that it will be tomorrow at 10;30 as planned. 

Hugs, Prayers, bellyrubs and earrubs to both you and ricky.


----------



## luchetel

Prayers for you and Ricky. We are all with you in our hearts.
Good Luck.


----------



## mckennasedona

Marj,
I'll be sending tons of good thoughts for you and Ricky tomorrow.


----------



## BeverlyA

Marj,
I've been keeping track of this thread but like some of the other members, I just have trouble finding the words to express our thoughts for you and Ricky.

You two have been through so much, and you have been such a wonderful, careful mommy for Ricky that I know it will be a huge relief when the procedure is finally over. 

Our prayers and hugs going out to you tonight Marj. Thank you for keeping us informed. You know you're part of our Forum family and we're all so worried about Ricky.

Hope you're getting lots of rest tonight.
Hugs

Beverly


----------



## MaddiesMom

Geez Marj, I hate to see you going through all this waiting, but it sounds like Ricky is pretty much scheduled for tomorrow. I'll keep both you and him in my thoughts and prayers. I'm so glad you're going to get some definite answers. For me, not knowing is the worst. As for the L/D, I didn't go that route either. Panda just wouldn't touch it. There are alternative quality dog foods with low protein or home cooking where protein sources and amounts can easily be restricted. It takes a little effort, but as you said, we'd do anything for our dogs.

I'll keep checking back to see if there's any news on Ricky. Just know that there are *SO* many of us here sending hugs your way. :grouphug:


----------



## havanesebyha

Marj, sending you much love to Ricky, you and family. We will keep Ricky in our prayers tomorrow for his surgery and to many questions answered and on his way to recovery.

Hugs from me and the girls :grouphug:


----------



## Cheryl

You are on my daily Hugs and Prayer list, but since tomorrow is the BIG day, I will send a double dose. I am so sorry that you have to go through this extra STUFF! 

If it turns our you need a special diet, between this board and the liver group, we should be able to provide you with options. When your vet suggests a certain food, just ask for the overall goal.


----------



## Gracie's Mom

I'll be praying for Ricky today and a calm mind for you. You will be so glad when he is out of surgery. Hopefully, they will call you when he is out of surgery? They did with Grace and it put my mind at ease when I knew she was OK.


----------



## ama0722

Sending good thoughts your way today Marj!


----------



## JASHavanese

We're adding our prayers. What a long and stressful time you've had. :hug::hug:


----------



## mintchip

:hug::grouphug: Marj,Ricky and family :grouphug::hug:


----------



## havaluv

Marj, just wanted you to know I'm thinking of you and Ricky and you are in my prayers. It must be hard when it keeps dragging out like this. Hopefully today or tomorrow, it will all be over and Ricky will be safe and sound and you'll have the answers you need. Sending hugs and love and healing thoughts your way! :grouphug:


----------



## Leslie

Just posting some extra hugs :hug: and healing thoughts for you today!


----------



## Leeann

Lots & Lots for more :hug: & :kiss: for you, Ricky & Sammy Marj.


----------



## ruthann

Marg, we are all with you in our hearts, praying for good news. Annabelle and Ruthann


----------



## Leslie

Just checking to see if there was any news yet.


----------



## pjewel

Considering all the time I spend wandering in an out of the forum I'm surprised I missed the whole latter part of this thread. I read back to your post about the surgery, then came back here. My thoughts and prayers are with you too through this difficult and frightening time. I can only hope the outcome is the best possible. I'll keep checking in till we hear from you.


----------



## isshinryu_mom

Just checking in on you, marj and Ricky.... you are in my prayers.


----------



## MaddiesMom

Just checking in to see if any news on Ricky. Marj, we're all with you in spirit. :grouphug:


----------



## Cheryl

Marj--any news yet?


----------



## marjrc

It's over! It's done! :whoo:

I brought Ricky in bright and early this a.m. (took 1 1/2 hrs. with the traffic) and he had the surgery at noon. I was out all morning running errands and got home about 15 mins. before a student at the hospital called me. He said Ricky woke up fine and was now relaxing in his cage and seemed well. The procedure went w/o a hitch and they took 4 tissue samples.

Around 5, I got a call from his doc. there and she said she couldn't believe how quickly he bounced back! They brought Ricky outside for a pee and he ran through the hallway on his way back! lol She said it surprised her, but it's a good sign. :biggrin1: He ate a little bit and will likely snooze 'til tomorrow. She is pretty sure I can pick him up around 12-1 and they'll tell me more about the tests etc. once I'm there. I'm very relieved that it's over. Thank you, thank you , thank you!!!!! Everyone has been so kind. 

Yes, Cheryl and Jeanne, once we know what the issue is, I can finally be sure of what type of diet will suit Ricky best. I have been giving him a dairy protien diet, with rice, for almost 3 weeks now and the doc told me this morning that Ricky's ALT from Tues' blood test was at 183. He had 388 only a month ago so that is very good! I almost canceled the biopsy, but with his bile acid very high and looking at the whole picture, it was best to go ahead. I can't swear it's the diet that helped, but we will have more answers soon enough. 

I feel very relieved, feel no stress at all and can't wait to snuggle with my teddy bear Ricky tomorrow.


----------



## mintchip

*Marj and family---
*


----------



## Leeann

Marj I am sooooo happy to read Ricky is doing so well, I just want to cry and give you a BIG hug.
Get some sleep tonight you have a lot of loving to do tomorrow.


----------



## Cheryl

That is fabulous news!


----------



## MaddiesMom

YAY!!!!

Marj, I'm *SO* glad its over and Ricky is doing great! What a huge load off your mind. I'm glad Ricky's numbers are coming down. The right diet can make such a huge difference. Get lots of rest tonight and soon you'll be back with your beautiful boy!


----------



## Missy

Yay!!! Oh Marj, what a relief that it is over!!!! I can't wait for you to pick him up tomorrow. I hope they have answers for you. Yay the biopsies are done-- YAY -YAY-YAY


----------



## Laurief

What FABULOUSNEWS!!!! 
Yahoo - the 4 L's are dancing around the kitchen with this good news! 
Have a good night sleep tonight Marj, you deserve it!!


----------



## Brady's mom

Marj,
I am so glad to hear all went well with Ricky's biopsy. I will keep you both in my thoughts and prayers.


----------



## Sissygirl

Glad to hear everything went well, Marj. Kisses and hugs from Sissy and me! I know you will be so excited to get him home tomorrow.


----------



## isshinryu_mom

What wonderful news... hugs and snugs for Ricky tommorrow!


----------



## Lynn

Marj,
The news about Ricky makes me very happy tonight, so glad he is doing well.
Sending you lots of:hug::hug::kiss::kiss:


----------



## Lina

Marj, wonderful news! So happy that Ricky went through surgery like a champ and will be back home tomorrow! :hug:


----------



## Jill in Mich

ALRIGHT!!!!Marj I'm so happy for you. Way to go Ricky!!!! Finally, you'll have some answers and will be able to have some control over what's happening. Will be saying lots of prayers for the best results possible tomorrow.


----------



## Leslie

Yessss!!! How wonderful to have it all over and to know he's doing so well. Marj, get a good nights rest. You deserve it!


----------



## Salsa's Mom

I'm so glad to read about this good news!!! You sound so relieved! :hug:


----------



## good buddy

Yay for Ricky!! Isn't he amazing? already up and running post surgery...what a guy! I'm so happy for you that he's doing well and the worst is over. Know you can get the answers you need and make the best choices possible for him. Phew! Take a deep breath and blow it out...... :hug:


----------



## Julie

:whoo:*FABULOUS!*:whoo:
That is fantastic news Marj! What a relief to get it over with and find out he is doing so well!:grouphug:

YIPPEE!:bounce:YIPPEE!:bounce:YIPPEE!:bounce:


----------



## LuvCicero

I'm so happy that things went well for Ricky and I know you will be happy to pick him up. I've been thinking about you both and will continue to pray for good news tomorrow. I hope you can rest, but I remember one time feeling a little like it was Christmas Eve when I was getting to pick up a furbaby at the hospital -- to excited to sleep well. You and Ricky will be able to snuggle and nap tomorrow afternoon...yeaaa.


----------



## Me&2Girls

Oh my goodness - I'm away for a couple of hours and missed the best news of all - he's doing great. What fabulous news that his levels are down. Now we're going to hope for a mild case and have it all managed by diet. :whoo:


----------



## JanB

Marj, What great news! I'm so happy for all of you!


----------



## juliav

Great news Marj,

I am so glad that Ricky came through the surgery and is recovering nicely. :hug:


----------



## ama0722

Marj- my internet went out today (i can't even manage one day without!) but Leslie let me know about Ricky. Great to hear him bouncing back and being himself so quickly. I hope you hear some great test results and finally find some answers.

Hugs,
Amanda


----------



## Gracie's Mom

I somehow read Amanda's first entry on the first page by accident, and my heart just dropped. Thank God, I figured out that I was reading the wrong page. That entry says how bad he is. If you read the first entry it says he isn't doing well, and I thought surgery didn't go well. But I'm so glad my first inclination was wrong.

Yeah, Marj!!!!!!!! I'm so happy!!!!!!! I know you must be relieved right now.


----------



## Cheryl

Yes, Amanda's first entry was posted almost 8 months ago. Marj has had this in the worry part of her brain for this long. I am very hopeful that she can cancel this worry off the list!! So lets all give her some alternative options to worry about. We know she is an expert!:biggrin1:


----------



## Gracie's Mom

Yes, I knew that it has been going on since November!!! Poor Marj!! When I clicked on the thread though - that is what popped up - the first page.


----------



## havanesebyha

YEAH MARJ!!! I am so happy for you that his surgery is over and he's feeling perky and will come home on Friday! Lots of BIG HUGS your way!


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## Janet Zee

Glad to hear the surgery went well and Ricky has bounced back so quickly. Marj I sure hope you slept well last night.


----------



## havaluv

Yay! That's Happy Dance News!!!​


----------



## mckennasedona

Hooray!!! Marj, great news. I'm so glad Ricky came through the surgery well. I hope he's back home in your arms now.


----------



## Cheryl

Is Ricky home safely in your arms? We all know how difficult it is to type holding a Hav.


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## marjrc

Hi everyone,

Ricky is home. Tired, but happy to be back I'm sure. He has about a dozen staples on his very shaved tummy/chest and so I'm keeping him in a t-shirt that I already had. I'll be asking my SIL for an old Onesie when I see her on Sunday. That should help with the scratching and licking. 

I'm to continue giving him the Ursodiol until we get results... in a week or so. They did see that his liver was marbled and slightly enlarged so something is going on. We'll find out soon enough. His dr. told him she was going to miss him. She said he jumped into her arms when she visited with him this morning. :biggrin1: He was SOOOOO happy to see me, but the poor guy couldn't jump on me as it hurts too much. 

I was in tears seeing Sammy and Ricky greet each other when we arrived home. They just kept sniffing and sniffing, Sammy inspecting Ricky all over. Very sweet! Within minutes, Sammy initiated a RLH, but Ricky wasn't going for that just yet. He takes the stairs slowly, and he's very tired, but he ate very well. It's nice to have him back. :biggrin1:

Busy weekend ahead, but will keep you posted! ((((hugs))) everyone!


----------



## mintchip

:hug: Yeah!! So glad to hear Ricky is home and doing well!:hug:


----------



## Mijo's Mom

YAY! Ricky's back home! So glad everything went well Marj. You have been in my thoughts all day! Enjoy your boys this weekend. 

Connie


----------



## Cheryl

Yeaaaahhhh! Ricky is home. I am glad he is doing so well. I can't wait to hear the stories about when you can't keep him down.

Cheryl


----------



## irnfit

Such great news, Marj! Give him a hug from me.


----------



## Lynn

:hug::hug::hug::kiss::kiss::kiss: to Ricky!!! Glad to here he is home and doing ok


----------



## DAJsMom

I haven't followed this thread too closely, but I am glad Ricky is home. Best wishes that he heals up quickly and that you get some answers soon to help him long-term!


----------



## Missy

Marj. Yay Ricky is home!!! I am still praying for good info clear directives from the biopsies!!! Hugs.


----------



## mybella

Very glad that Ricky is home. Wishing you all happy thoughts.


----------



## Salsa's Mom

Great News! I'm so glad you have your little Ricky at home and that the surgery is behind you! Wishing him a speedy recovery!


----------



## RCKNROB

Good news Marj, you have had some prayers going up and the news is good. Yeah
He is a tuff little boy. Kisses to Ricky xxoo

Diva and Augie


----------



## mellowbo

Welcome home Ricky. Hmmmm, interesting about his liver. In a human a "fatty", enlarged liver could be from gaining weight too fast. I know! lol. It would be so interesting if that was Rickys case........
Don't mind me, I'm just the "trying to figure it all out kind". :biggrin1:
Give Ricky VERY GENTLE tummy pats from me.
Carole
xxoox


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## ama0722

Marj, I am glad to hear he is home and that Sammy welcomed him back and is playing nurse.

Amanda


----------



## pjewel

Marj,

I've been really busy all day today and couldn't get on the computer at all so you can imagine my excitement when I read the update. I was shouting yay right along with you. I'm so happy for you both that he's back in your loving arms. Give him an extra hug for me and the boys and here's hoping it's nothing but good news from here on.


----------



## Leslie

Marj~ So glad you've got your Ricky back in your arms and that he's doing so well. I bet Sammy was trying to figure out what all those new smells were that were on him.
Give him extra tender belly rubs from me. :hug:


----------



## juliav

Marj,

I am so happy that Ricky is home, give the little man extra gentle belly rubs.


----------



## Julie

:clap2: Glad to read you have Ricky back home now and you can put that all behind you. Before long you'll have his test results and know what to do next. In the meantime,enjoy him and Sammy and no worries----ok?:hug:


----------



## JASHavanese

Great news to hear he's home and ok!! We'll all be waiting to hear the results.
Hugs and prayers to your little one


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## MaddiesMom

Awwww.....so glad Ricky is back in your arms. I bet you're ecstatic. Yes, give him some gentle belly rubs from all of us!


----------



## Laurief

Marj, so happy your sweet boy is back at home. Spend the weekend with extra hugs and cuddles for the boys!! I will be praying for great test results!


----------



## Trish

Thanks Marj for having enough energy to keep us posted on Ricky..It sounds like everyone is soooo happy he is home and hopefully everyone has gotten some much needed chill time with everyone under one roof. Enjoy some time with the kids and just have relaxing fun time knowing the surgery is over and healing time is ahead. Licks from the Ragones: Happy, Lucky and Ricky!!


----------



## Cheryl

Marj I hope the night went well and Ricky is showing a little more energy this morning--but not too much!!!


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## mckennasedona

Yeah, Ricky's home. How did he do over night? I'm so glad he's doing well.
Give him some gentle pets from us!


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## Lina

Glad to hear that Ricky is back home safe and sound!


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## BeverlyA

Marj, we're all so happy that Ricky's home and in your arms again!
Take good care of him and yourself and we will all be sending good thoughts for the best test results possible.

Beverly


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## havaluv

Yay! I'm so glad that part is over and you don't have to worry about it anymore, Marj! We'll be praying for good test results and answers for you. Feel better Quick, Ricky!!! :hug::kiss:


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## marjrc

Hi there! 

Just a quick note...... very unusual for me not to write a novel. ound: BUT I'll keep this short.

Ricky's quite lethargic still, though he finally managed to go up and down stairs around noon today. I was carrying him before that as he really couldn't do it on his own. He's not jumping, not dancing for treats or doing any RLH's just yet. :biggrin1: Sammy tried to get him to RLH this a.m., but Ricky wasn't going to even try. He did play fetch 3 or 4 times, but then quits as I'm sure he's too sore to keep at it. Only normal. 

He has a dozen+ staples and has been wearing a tee which is a HUGE help, preventing him from licking and hurting himself with scratching. He's very quiet, because when he tries to bark loudly, it hurts so he stops and has these mini gruffs and barks/growls. Too bad that won't last long!!! lol :suspicious: 

Ok... so TRYING to keep this short. I just wanted to thank everyone again. I can't say it enough. You are angels to me and incredible people. I am blessed to have you in my life. Love and (((hugs))) all around!


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## whitBmom

Marj I am so happy to hear Ricky's operation went well. I will keep him in my thoughts for a speedy recovery... Hugs to you and your family. :grouphug:


----------



## MaddiesMom

Marj, Thanks for the update for us. We don't expect a long post, as we know you're spending alot of your time with Ricky. I'm so glad Ricky is in the recovery mode. Yes, it will take some time before he's himself, but it won't take too long. I bet some time next week he'll be playing wtih Sammy. He's young, and he'll recover quickly. I'm so glad you'll finally get some answers. You've had such a stressful year, and I know worrying about the biopsy was so draining. But its over, and now Ricky is back in your arms. YAY!!!


----------



## mellowbo

Give that sweet little boy kisses for me. He probably needs to take these first few days slowly and get a lot of good healing rest. I know you are probably giving him the spoiling he deserves, lol.
Carole
xxoox


----------



## Cheryl

Roxie and Brutus are sending lot of hugs to Ricky. They have requested pictures of Ricky in his T-shirt. I am sorry that he is still in pain. Was he given anything for the pain? The pain is probably good to keep him from doing what he is not supposed to do. Roxie had sutures and not staples and she tried to be more active than she should have at times.


----------



## Leslie

Tori sends ear lickies! And she thinks pix of Ricky in his T-shirt is a good idea, too!


----------



## mintchip

:grouphug:Marj ,Ricky and family:grouphug:


----------



## Paige

Marj, i am so glad to hear he is safe at home. Get better soon Ricky. Hugs to you and your family Marj, I know how worried you have been. Hopefully they will find the problem and this can be over and he can go back to living a carefree hav's life of RLH, eat, sleep, pampering. Repeat.


----------



## Gracie's Mom

Marj - I was at Parent/Daughter Girl Scout Camp, and I checked in as soon as I could. I'm so glad Ricky made it through surgery. So sorry he is in pain, but I'm sure he will be better soon. Gracie was feeling better and running around before the doctors wanted her to. They wanted her to avoid stairs, running, etc. for 2 weeks - like that was going to happen?!!!!

Gracie only had 1 biopsy spot. It sounds like they are doing a thorough job. Hopefully they got enough of Gracies' liver to get a good diagnosis. I think you have a good group of doctors helping you out. I'll be checking in frequently to hear the diagnosis.


----------



## MaddiesMom

Marj- Just checking in to see how Ricky's feeling. Is his pain better? I'm sure he'll feel alot better when his staples are out and he's back to RLH.


----------



## marjrc

Thank you so much for everything! You guys are amazing. 

Jeanne, Ricky is doing much better now. As of Sunday night, he has been his old self again. :biggrin1: ... including barking too much. :suspicious: 
He started wrestling with Sammy yesterday, so I'm grateful that he still wears the t-shirts to protect the wound. Can you imagine if Sammy gets a claw caught in one of the staples???!! 

I will see his vet end of next week to get the staples removed. I should be getting test results later this week. I hope!

I haven't combed him thoroughly yet, but will tomorrow. Thankfully, his coat is short so I'm not too worried about mats. He's racing around now and not at all afraid of taking the stairs like he was for the first 3 days. Try keeping a Hav down for long! HA !


----------



## mintchip

:whoo: Keep up the good work Ricky!


----------



## mellowbo

All sounds great Marj!!
Give Ricky hugs from me and ear lickies from Vinny and Lulu.
Carole


----------



## Julie

That is GREAT news Marj! I'm thrilled to read that Ricky is starting to play and be himself again!:clap2::whoo::clap2:


----------



## JASHavanese

Way to go Ricky!!:cheer2:


----------



## marjrc

*Warning! Contains graphic image*

Here is what Ricky's scar and staples looked like yesterday.

I've also included some pics of Ricky in his "very fashionable" tank top, looking like one of the members of the Village People.  ound: I asked my SIL for some of her son's toddler clothes. lol

Ricky wants me to tell you all "Thank you!".


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## mellowbo

*HOW ADORABLE IS HE!!*
THE INCISION LOOKS LIKE IT IS HEALING WELL!
CAROLE


----------



## Lina

Awww I love Ricky in his shirt! It does seem like the incision is healing very well too, so that's great! YAY for Ricky feeling better!


----------



## Leslie

I think he looks like a million bucks! :biggrin1:


----------



## ama0722

I think orange is his color! Quick heeling Ricky man!


----------



## MaddiesMom

Awwww....so glad to hear Ricky is already back to his antics. That is sure a good sign! He looks adorable in his orange shirt, and his incision looks nice and clean. Way to go Ricky!


----------



## Cheryl

I knew Ricky wouldn't be down for long! Keep up the healing, boy!


----------



## Judy A

He looks great in his t-shirt and the wound is healing really well! Way to go Ricky!!!


----------



## Laurief

Love the orange striped shirt - he sure does look fashionable!! His staples look exactly like Gigi's did when she was spayed. She was never once bothered by them, never chewed or licked at them, and was perfectly fine when they came out. I am sure Ricky will do as well!!! Still keeping our fingers crossed for GREAT test results!!


----------



## Missy

ricky is the cutes liver biopsy patient I have ever seen!!! love the tank top. and what a nice job on the stitches-- I was suprised to see how long the incision was. poor baby-- but he looks like he is doing just fine.


----------



## ECudmore

HUGS AND KISSES TO SWEET RICKY. HE LOOKS LIKE HE IS FEELING BETTER.

ELAYNE AND RACQUET


----------



## hedygs

I love Ricky in his tshirt. I'm so glad he is feeling better.


----------



## mintchip

*Yeah Ricky!!*!
Love the tank top! :biggrin1:


----------



## marjrc

Thank you so much for the positive energy, folks! Missy, I knew the incision would be long like that as I'd seen one on a Daschund this past winter. It was the reason I wanted to avoid this procedure because I was worried about the pain and healing process. So far, though, Ricky is doing very well. :biggrin1:


----------



## dboudreau

Good to hear Ricky is feeling better! :hug:


----------



## marjrc

*I just got a call from the doc at the hospital and the results are in. It seems like he had/has Vacuolar Hepatopathy and his liver cells showed an increase in glycogen, a bit of lymphocytes and plasma. What that means, is that it looks like something did attack the liver, but that Ricky is on his way to healing.

The liver is regenerating nicely because they saw oval cells near the bile ducts which indicate this. I'm so happy, I'm crying my eyes out!!!!!! :biggrin1:

When she said we may never know what it was that triggered this, back in Nov., I said it HAD to be the vaccines he got 4 days prior. There is nothing else and it is way too much of a coincidence. She agreed and said it wouldn't be the first time she's seen that!

So, for a while yet... no vaccines for Ricky and Sammy. If we absolutely have to get their rabies shot done, we can give cortisone before, during and after the shots, which may help. ?? Doc also recommended we only use a topical Heart worm treatment, but I'm not even going to do that. Not going to use flea meds. either, if I can help it.... and anyways, can't give him either just yet.

I'm to continue giving Ricky the Ursodiol for another 2-3 weeks and then we'll retest his liver enzymes mid-late August. If it's back to normal, I can then feed the diet I think will be best for my boy and not worry!! So, it looks like he isn't a dog with chronic liver issues, but just getting through the healing his body had to do to deal with the onslaught of vaccines last fall. 

















To think that doing the "right thing", by getting his annual shots, and PAYING for them no less, has forced us to travel this very stressful, scary, expensive and risky road. But....... dont' get me started. I'm too happy right now. :whoo: LOL*


----------



## mckennasedona

Oh Marj, I'm so very happy for you and especially for Ricky!!!! Wonderful news.

You know, there are breeders who never vaccinate their dogs and don't use any topical meds for fleas and ticks, and use only natural products for those issues. One breeder I know who raises her dogs this way has absolutely beautiful, healthy Havs. Her dogs do get vet visits, of course, but no vaccines, ever. I'm almost on that bandwagon. My girls had puppy shots and one booster but I'm at a point where I think that's it for them.


----------



## Lina

Oh my goodness Marj, I am SO happy for you and Ricky that everything has been figured out! I can just imagine how excited you are.


----------



## Leslie

:whoo: Marj~ This is the best news! Exactly what I've been praying for.

I'm so glad you went through w/the biopsy even though it was so difficult, since now you know positively there is nothing seriously wrong w/his liver. I am sorry you had to deal w/any of it, though.

I'm seriously thinking Tori will only get titers done from now on (except that stupid rabies shot they make them get...)


----------



## Jill in Mich

What great news Marj! I'm so excited for you and Ricky! Things are going to keep getting better & better - with all of the positive thoughts and energy, how could they not???

This made my day...


----------



## marjrc

Thank you! Jill, it kinda "made my day" too. :biggrin1: Leslie, I too, am glad we got it done. I will be getting a written report in the mail so I will go over that and make sure we do what is best for Ricky.

I know many dogs who live long, healthy lives w/o getting vaccinated and I do know the risks if you don't get the shots. I had always hesitated and questioned vaccines, even when my kids were very young, and this whole "adventure" just confirms that I need to listen to my gut more. For this traditional vet to actually *recommend* not vaccinating Ricky, well...... that says it all.


----------



## MaddiesMom

Oh Marj! I am *SO* darn happy for you and Ricky!!














What GREAT news!! Now you can focus on what's best for him and get him well.

I have a neighbor who is a vet. She's a regular vet, not homeopathic. She told me that vets way overvacinate their patient's animals. She has 2 Aussies that are 10 and 11 years old, and she stopped their annual vaccinations before they were 2. She did titers a couple of years ago, and they are still high. I get in a "fightin' mood" when the vet tries to convince me to vaccinate. But having lost a prior Havanese due to an unknown liver illness (and one who was vaccinated regularly), I hold my ground. So far our vet honors my wishes, but if she's doesn't, I'll find a new vet. I've had Maddie's puppy shots and her annual booster, but I want titers from now on. Of course, we still have to have the darned rabies by law.

I am so happy for you and Ricky! This news absolutely made my day!!!:biggrin1::clap2::bounce:


----------



## Paige

Marj, that is such exciting news. I bet you are crying with joy. What a relief. I too, don't agree with all the shots they give. I have been getting mine their puppy shots and then let them get their boosters at one year and the rabies. It is still a yearly requirement here for the rabies. But now with happened to Ricky, I hate to give them any beyond puppy shots. I guess I have a little time to decide with Simon.

YEAH, RICKY IS ON THE MEND.


----------



## mellowbo

Marj, I'm crying with relief for you and Ricky!!!
Just like Lulu!! Those darn awful shots, lol. You can bet my dogs will be getting titers, not shots anymore. My vet also said that our pets are way over vacinated. 
I just knew Ricky was going to be fine.
eace::whoo:
Carole, Vinny and Little Lulu
xxoox


----------



## SMARTY

We are all so happy ricky is on the road to recovery. Our thoughts have been with you.


----------



## hedygs

YAY!!!! I'm so happy that Ricky is on the mend.

The idea that the vacines are causing the illness is really scary to me. It seems to Catch-22 like to me.


----------



## LuvCicero

Marj, I am so very happy. It makes my heart fill with joy to have my prayers answered. I am thrilled that you can have the happy tears and get the good news. My little Punkin that I lost at 17 years of age...didn't get shots...and was healthy. It is "their" law for the rabies....but Punkin only had it twice. She was in my control at all times and I was her only caregiver and groomer. She never had frontline and never had fleas. I used a vinegar rinse for baths and a few drops of it in her water bowl. Cicero has had his puppy shots, but I can tell you it will be hard for me to let anyone talk me into yearly shots. If it ain't broke, don't fix it......I'm praying he will live as long as Punkin and be as healthy!
Hope you sleep well tonight!!!!


----------



## marjrc

I just want to say: I love you guys!!!!!!! :biggrin1:


----------



## Laurief

OH MY GOODNESS MARJ, I WAS AWAY FOR A LITTLE WHILE & LOOK AT THE FABULOUS NEWS~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am so so excited!!! I bet you will have a fabulous nights sleep tonight, as will the rest of the family. What wonderful news!!

And Marj - we love you too!!!!


----------



## Missy

Marj, I read the news earlier, but had to run out and couldn't respond. YEAH!!!!!!!! GFETE!!!:biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1: 
Could we have asked for any better diagnosis!!!! I am just thrilled for you and your family-- human and hav. :grouphug::thumb::cheer2::kiss::amen:

ps. I had 14 smileys I am so happy, but they only allow 10!!!


----------



## isshinryu_mom

What wonderdul news!!! I am so happy for you and Ricky! 

I am going to have to research vaccines and titers... so much to learn to take the very best care of these little guys.


----------



## Julie

:whoo::clap2::dance::bounce: *AWESOME NEWS! *:bounce::dance::clap2::whoo:

What terrific news Marj!:hug: I'm so happy for you that everything turned out so well. Ricky looks so cute in his t's....the incision was bigger then I expected as well,but I'm just so glad it is all over with!:thumb:


----------



## Gracie's Mom

What wonderful news, Marj!! I'm so relieved to hear that he will be OK. Yeah!!!!!!! You were so worried for so long, and now we know that is not necessary any longer. Yippee!!!! I hope he heals quickly from surgery and that his liver gets back to normal soon. This is such great news!!!!!


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## whitBmom

Hi Marj, Just trying to catch up to things and am so happy to hear Ricky is on the mend.. Hugs to you and your family. I wish Ricky a speedy recovery. :grouphug:


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## Leeann

Wahoooo Marj







for you and Ricky.


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## Cheryl

How did I miss this news yesterday. I am dancing for joy for you and Ricky!!!! Hip-hip-horray!


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## Salsa's Mom

I am so happy to hear the good news about Ricky!!! You must be so relieved!!!!! Hugs to you both and continued healing wishes to Ricky as he recovers from his surgery.


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## Me&2Girls

Oh what wonderful news. I'm crying big tears of happiness for you. I'm so sorry that you had to go through the big surgery, but now you know it's not long term and your baby will get well. Can't think of a better outcome than that. Hugs to you!

The AVMA just came out with the recommendation that you do your puppy shots, rabies and then one set of boosters at 12-14 months and they'll be vaccinated for life. Of course you "should" keep up with your rabies, but there is major research efforts afoot that show the titers stay high for 5-7 years minimum and eventually we'll see some state law changes.


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## FablesMom

OMG! I'm so happy to hear about this!!! I was so worried reading through the starting posts! I guess I should have just jumped to the end!
Congratulations!!!!!! YAY!!!!!


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## suzyfrtz

Marj,

Such happy news! Ricky looks so cute in his t-shirt and his incision looks just like mine - we have matching bellies!! LOL!

Really glad all came out fine.

Hugs,

Suzy AKA Sue


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## ruthann

Marg, I'm so happy to hear good news!!! Ruthann


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## marjrc

Thank you so much for the thoughtful words, everyone. 

Lisa, that is good news, to see some changes in the making. Sammy needs his rabies booster, but I'm so fearful so trying to delay it. I'm not so sure he needs it. He did get one around 8 months when we got him from his previous owners (who didn't believe in rabies vaccines), but my vet told me Sammy also needed the 1 yr. booster. We'll see. Lord knows, I have every reason to be worried! 

Ricky must be feeling better, he's been barking like a madman since Monday! :frusty: Little bugger. :biggrin1:


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## Mijo's Mom

Awww! I'm so happy for you Marj! I just caught up on this thread. Such wonderful news! We've all been praying for it. Thank God Ricky will be fine! YAY!

Hugs from Mijo and me! 

Connie


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## ama0722

Marj that is great news and I am sure in time you will find some ways to do flea prevention, etc. I can't believe how toxic those shots were to Ricky. I am just so glad that it isn't his liver.

Amanda


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## Beamer

Marj - Great news for Ricky!! Hope he gets all better very soon!!

Ryan


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## Me&2Girls

Marj, glad Ricky is starting to get his energy back. As to the rabies, they do need that one after a year of age, so when everyone is feeling back to their old selves, make sure you get that and you should be good for quite a while. I don't know how stringent your laws are in Canada, but I've always worried that an innocent bite in play to someone who's not a fan of dogs might end up having one of them seized by the authorities.


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## Janet Zee

Marj......What fantastic news!!! After all you've been through it was great to hear that Ricky will be fine. Our prayers have been answered. Love and healing thoughts to you & Little Ricky.


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## JASHavanese

marjrc said:


> /quote]
> 
> Wow what great news!!! That's the best of the best. Wooooooooohooooooooooo


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## kelrobin

Been away too long . . . and this news is WAY better than cleaning out clutter from the closets!!

*Yay!!!!* So happy for Ricky's news and his wonderful homecoming and his bounce back Havatude!! I know you are all relieved. As we say here in the south, bless his little heart (and liver  ) I think we are ALL going to be studying this vaccine thing . . . very scary . . .

When does he get out the staples?

Jackson sends many hugs and kisses :hug::hug::kiss::kiss:


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## Trish

Hi Marj..I am a little late in reading the fabulous news about Ricky...it is time for that massage you so deserve..a little R&R for YOU!!! We have learned so much through your experience since November and you have been so informative during this troubled time to help educate all of us on Liver issues. It is so heartwarming to have a happy ending and to be able to tell this story in such a compassionate way during this prolonged illness and Ricky's surgery. Opening up your heart to us to tell us your experiences was wonderful and it seems you felt the same about the forum and its wonderful member's support and encouragement. Bless you and Ricky and ,of course, your entire family and health care team..thanks so much for sharing. We look forward to hearing how is progression to wellness is going..Trish


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## LuvCicero

I'm just checking and thinking about you. The staples look...well, OUCH...but I've had them once in my hip and they didn't hurt even coming out. I hope your "happy high" is lasting and all will be well from here on out for you and your furbabies.


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## marjrc

Thank you! Actually, Trish, I'm heading out for a massage soon. :biggrin1: I still haven't taken my spa half day, but that will come soon. I'm hoping to go before our family trip in Aug.

Ricky is getting the staples out Wed., most likely. My vet said to come any time I like and they'll take us and do them. It shouldn't take long. He's healing very nicely. We haven't had to put a t-shirt on him since Sat. afternoon..... but I do miss the cute tops he was wearing! lol I'm sure I'll put that tank top on him again. lol

Yup, the stress is gone since I've known that Ricky's liver is healing well. I am looking forward to the next enzyme tests end of Aug. It will be much cause for celebration once his level is closer to normal. You're all invited to that party!! :whoo:


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## Beamer

We can celebrate in Richmond, Marj! Drinks will be on me! 
(will he have this test prior to Richmond??)

Ryan


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## marjrc

Beamer said:


> We can celebrate in Richmond, Marj! Drinks will be on me!
> (will he have this test prior to Richmond??)
> 
> Ryan


Ooooooo! GREAT idea, Ryan! YES, hopefully, I'll have those results before I leave for Richmond. :whoo:


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## marjrc

Well, it's been a long, long time since I've updated this thread and someone asked me in another thread how Ricky was doing, so I thought I'd post. 

Ricky had a blood test mid-Aug. to see how his ALT was doing. It was at 280, still high (normal max is about 125), but at least it was going down. With the vet and specialist, we decided to continue giving him the Denamarin, though only 2-3/week, and a good, healthy diet.

Ricky is very healthy and asymptomatic, so the worry isn't there anymore. Just knowing that darn ALT is lowering is a relief. A month ago, we retested and his ALT, still high, was at 220. There were no sugg'ns as to changing anything. I did ask if we should do the bile acid test, but the vet didn't think it was necessary and wouldn't change what we are doing already.

I've introduced a higher protein food, Acana Adult dog, and mixed with Fromm's and sometimes some raw on its own, Ricky is getting a varied diet and seemingly quite healthy. It may be that Ricky will always have a <highish> ALT and that is that. I suppose we'll do another blood test around Feb./March.

Thank you for your interest!


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## Sheri

Marj, I thought that for liver problems you needed a lower protein diet, not higher? Must have had that backwards.

I'm so glad he's going the right direction!

Sheri and Tucker


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## marjrc

I'm sorry it's taken me so long to get to this, Sheri. It's been hectic here lately! 

IF there is a compromised/sick liver and/or kidneys, then yes, a low-protein diet is recommended and won't cause too much strain on the organs. A high-protein diet will NOT cause any of those issues though, because good food companies know not to include too much ash in their high-protein kibble. It used to be that too many bones were used, increasing the amt. of ash and that is what possibly caused liver and kidney problems in dogs. You can always find out the ask content of any kibble by writing them or checking out their sites, usually.


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## Lynn

marjrc said:


> IF there is a compromised/sick liver and/or kidneys, then yes, a low-protein diet is recommended and won't cause too much strain on the organs. A high-protein diet will NOT cause any of those issues though, because good food companies know not to include too much ash in their high-protein kibble. It used to be that too many bones were used, increasing the amt. of ash and that is what possibly caused liver and kidney problems in dogs. You can always find out the ask content of any kibble by writing them or checking out their sites, usually.


So, if Casper has a ALT 347, do you think he should be on a low-protein diet. He does not act sick. I am having the bile acid test done after our vacation. His vet recommended it. He loves meat; beef,lamb, which would be high in protein. He eats alot of wet, solid gold and wellness toped with some meat.

What do you think makes a high ALT reading?


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## marjrc

What does Casper's vet say about a high ALT of 347? Ricky's last results, in Nov. of this past year were 220 and is considered high, though he's been asymptomatic ever since that day more than a year ago when it was at 1200! I am not feeding low protein at 220, though some people would prefer to. I am not worried about his liver, though I am avoiding beef until I see an ALT of lower than 200, just because beef does increase the ammonia in the blood and that can eventually be harmful to the liver. That is only IF the liver is already <suffering> .

Now, is Casper's liver <suffering>? I don't know. Will this bile acid test be his first one? If he has a high post result, then I would try a diet change, and see if that helps a couple of months later. Supplements of milk thistle and/or denamarin can also help and you can get those via your vet or online, where I got mine much cheaper.

Some causes of a high ALT are toxins (whether from vaccines, poisons, plants, or environment), infection, bacteria, and liver shunt(s) within the liver or outside the liver. Further tests will help find out why Casper has a high ALT. Then again, you might go through all that and find nothing at all wrong! :suspicious:

I would get that BAT done though.


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## marjrc

One reason I'm not overly concerned is that in the Havanese, it can be that their "normal" ALT is a bit higher than in some other breeds. They show no symptoms, don't have a sick liver at all and aren't likely to, they just have a higher ALT. Per Dr. Sharon Center's work, that wouldn't necessarily be anything to worry about. She and her team, I imagine, are still working at finding out more.


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## Lynn

Thanks Marj,
Casper's vet said she wants him to have the BAT test, she also said some breeds have a higher ALT reading. She really did not seem concerned, she asked me a few questions, like is he a good eater....

He does eat alot of beef and has for sometime, because he is allergic to chicken and I think turkey. I think when he eats chicken and turkey he is more likely to have the yellow bile spit up in the morning and I think chicken made him itchy. So, he eats ground sirlon and stew beef for treats.

When I get back I will have the bile acid test done and I am going to cut back on the beef

thanks Marj


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## Sheri

So, Marj, Tucker's ALT was 55. Is that too LOW?


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## Gracie's Mom

Hi Sheri ~ Gracie also has liver problems (MVD), and I can tell you that an ALT of 55 is exactly where you want her. Normal is 10 - 100.


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## marjrc

Karen, that's right. Max levels (but that can be higher with some breeds) is around 100. 

Lynn, if Casper can't tolerate chicken or turkey (and Lord knows it's in a LOT of kibble!), you can opt for lamb, salmon, rabbit, duck or venison.... Orijen and Acana have an all-fish (6 types) kibble as well as a lamb, as do many other companies, such as Prairie and Fromm's. 

IF a dog has liver issues, it is recommended that most of his protein comes from white fish, dairy products, or rice, but that would be if your dog has MVD or shunts. We tried this type of diet for a while and I am sure that, as well as time, is what helped Ricky get a lower ALT. I do add dairy to his kibble sometimes, but I am still an advocate of raw so am including more raw and meaty bones to their diet.


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## Sheri

Thanks, Karen and Marj.


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