# Need Help With Clicker Shaping Game



## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

I am currently working with Willow on the shaping game where my goal is to have her get into a box. The box is really a box lid so it's small with only 2 inch sides. When I first started this game, she barely looked at the box. Now, however, she is looking at it, nosing it, pushing it, batting at it with her feet and sometimes grabbing it with her mouth. But I can't seem to get her to go into it. I wait and ask for "more" or "what else" and she'll continue to do something with it but if I hold out for what I want, she gets frustrated. When I see her reach that point, I will click and treat for whatever behaviour she is showing. I've tried tossing the treat into the box after clicking to show her that this is a "hot spot" but she still hasn't gotten into the box. Any suggestions would be appreciated!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> I am currently working with Willow on the shaping game where my goal is to have her get into a box. The box is really a box lid so it's small with only 2 inch sides. When I first started this game, she barely looked at the box. Now, however, she is looking at it, nosing it, pushing it, batting at it with her feet and sometimes grabbing it with her mouth. But I can't seem to get her to go into it. I wait and ask for "more" or "what else" and she'll continue to do something with it but if I hold out for what I want, she gets frustrated. When I see her reach that point, I will click and treat for whatever behaviour she is showing. I've tried tossing the treat into the box after clicking to show her that this is a "hot spot" but she still hasn't gotten into the box. Any suggestions would be appreciated!


Frustration is part of clicker training. Without a bit of frustration, they won't try something else. You need to just stay quiet, keep looking at the box and WAIT. Don't look at her, and don't say ANYTHING. She has no idea what "more" or "what else" means, and clicking random behaviors just will confuse her.

If you REALLY want to learn how to shape, I wouldn't toss cookies in the box either. That's luring, which can also be a useful training technique at times, but it isn't "shaping".

I'll see if I can find something to shape with one of mine and make a little video.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

OK, here's a video I just shot of shaping Kodi to get onto this box. I didn't have anything handy to shape him to get INTO, but the principles are exactly the same. He had never seen this box before, but remember, he's a pretty well trained dog, with a lot of experience with shaping and clicker training. (not, btw, completely synonymous) So don't think that you should be able to shape a complete behavior in the 7 minutes this took me.

Some notes to start: in the very beginning, I moved the box to make it easier for you to see on the video. I actually do this several times, because it was sliding on the tile floor. This had nothing to do with training, just about being able to view it. Also, optimally, especially with a dog who is just learning shaping, you would want the box (whether they are getting in or on) to be on a non-skid surface so it doesn't startle them. Kodi's done enough of this that he could work through it, but you can see his hesitance about the unstable footing several times.

Also, you can't see my face, but I am looking at the box... ALL the time. I can see him out of my peripheral vision, of course, but I purposely DON'T make eye contact with him. My focus remains on the box. A few time, when he is barking, you may notice that I turn away from him. This is not necessary with all dogs... often they will bark some in frustration. However, Kodi has a history of "demand barking" that I want to discourage. So me turning away from him when he barks at me is my signal that "you won't get what you want that way!"

:16 - He first looks at the box and I click treat. He immediately starts nose touching the box, which I also click (I'll stop saying click/treat for brevity, but I know you understand that the click is always followed by a treat)

:30 - I stop clicking for nose touches. He's got that... I want him to move on. This part may take WAY longer with a dog who doesn't already know about shaping. You'll see that he starts to get a bit frustrated, and actually leaves to go check in with Pixel, who is gated outside the kitchen. I do NOTHING when he disengages. He comes back and starts offering some alternative behaviors, but he hasn't hit the right one yet, so I stay still and quiet.

:59 - He puts a foot on the box. Click!

2:15 - He is offering different behaviors, but really seems stuck. I "un-stick" him just by changing my orientation to the box.

2:20 - Almost immediately, he steps on the box with two feet, and stays there. This is a BIG step forward, so I "bumper" reward, with praise and a number of cookies after the click.

*If I were working with a dog new to this type of work, I would end the session here, and come back to it another time. You would probably still have to work up through the intermediate steps, but they would go faster each time you worked on it.* But because Kodi is a more experienced dog, AND I was trying to show you the whole sequence I kept going. I felt quite certain that he could work though this without undue frustration. (again, a little bit of frustration is not only fine, but necessary to learning)

2:29 - When he doesn't get off the box on his own, I shift my weight to get him to step down. If that hadn't worked, I would have thrown a cookie on the floor. (I think you'll see me do that at another spot)

2:40 - He starts putting his front feet up then hopping right down. He's no dummy... He's already figured out that he's getting a cookie each time his feet go up. 

3:05 - Again, he gets up and stays... bumper reward.

3:45 - By this point, he clearly understands that he needs his front feet on, and I start to hold off clicking, waiting for a hind foot. Interestingly, watching the video I miss two "hind foot clicks" because they were on the side away from me and toward the camera, so I didn't see them until I watched the video. In hind sight, that's probably what got him frustrated and barking at me. Ah well, hind sight is 20/20! 

4:05 - When I DO click, YOU can't see anything, because he put the back foot on MY side up!

4:20 - I shifted my position again, just to keep him moving.

5:02 - I click for front feet only again. It's fine to occasionally click for a past stage, just to remind them that they are on the right track and to keep them engaged in the game.

5:57 - Success! It was only a coincidence that I said it to the camera, and he did it... he's smart, but he's not THAT smart! 

6:37 - By this rep, he clearly has it figured out, and it's a repeatable behavior. HOWEVER, with an inexperienced dog, you should expect that the next (several) times you try the same behavior, you will need to go back several steps. The dog will tell you how many steps, and where you need to start. There is no right or wrong, every dog is different.

Hope that helps!


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

krandall said:


> Frustration is part of clicker training. Without a bit of frustration, they won't try something else. You need to just stay quiet, keep looking at the box and WAIT. Don't look at her, and don't say ANYTHING. She has no idea what "more" or "what else" means, and clicking random behaviors just will confuse her.


Thank you. My book instructs that if the dog seems to be losing interest I have probably raised the bar too high and to go back and reinforce the behaviour that was last offered. She says that if the dog has offered 3 behaviors and they have not been what I want I should drop back on my criteria and reward on the 4th try.

We've only been doing this probably 6 days in a row. Maybe I'm trying to move her along too quickly. She does say that after interaction with the box I can throw a treat in it after clicking to indicate that the box is a "hot" area. She says that if I threw it in before clicking, then that would be luring. Now that I reread that passage, I think that the throwing of the treat into the box was to be at the very beginning of the game and not after she consistently interacts with the box.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

krandall said:


> OK, here's a video I just shot of shaping Kodi to get onto this box.


Oh thank you. I just replied to your previous post before I saw this post from you. I really appreciate you going to this effort to help.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Karen, the video is great. Thank you so much. I watched the video and then read the whole post about the steps you took. When watching the video I was surprised that you didn't click when the hind foot first went on the box, but after reading I saw that you couldn't see Kodi do it. So I think I kind of understand when I should click. You and Kodi make it look so easy!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> Thank you. My book instructs that if the dog seems to be losing interest I have probably raised the bar too high and to go back and reinforce the behaviour that was last offered.


Oh! OK! It sounded like you were just clicking a random behavior, not a lower level of what you were working on. That is absolutely correct, and you will see me doing that at least once with Kodi, to get him moving again.



Jackie from Concrete said:


> She says that if the dog has offered 3 behaviors and they have not been what I want I should drop back on my criteria and reward on the 4th try.


That's a bit rigid, but I get that she's trying to teach someone through a book. (I think you'd find it easier to learn via the Kikopup videos, actually) You really have to read the dog. If they are offering behaviors that are "warmer", I'd click, even if they weren't perfect. You have to be sure that the next step in your mind is actually something the dog can achieve. This is where learning from a live person, or at least watching a LOT of videos, can help a lot.



Jackie from Concrete said:


> We've only been doing this probably 6 days in a row. Maybe I'm trying to move her along too quickly. She does say that after interaction with the box I can throw a treat in it after clicking to indicate that the box is a "hot" area. She says that if I threw it in before clicking, then that would be luring. Now that I reread that passage, I think that the throwing of the treat into the box was to be at the very beginning of the game and not after she consistently interacts with the box.


I'd have to either read it myself or talk to her... This still doesn't sound like pure shaping to me. OTOH, as I said before, that DOESN'T mean that it can't be a useful strategy in teaching a dog something. "Purists" among shapers wouldn't do it, but I tend to be a bit more pragmatic about training. I DON'T think EVERYTHING needs to be shaped.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> Karen, the video is great. Thank you so much. I watched the video and then read the whole post about the steps you took. When watching the video I was surprised that you didn't click when the hind foot first went on the box, but after reading I saw that you couldn't see Kodi do it. So I think I kind of understand when I should click. You and Kodi make it look so easy!


Well, I was afraid of that and ALMOST used Pixel instead.  But I wanted to be able to show you the whole process, start to finish, in one video, and I knew I could do that with Kodi. (because of his past experience) I wasn't positive with Pixel. She understands shaping, but hasn't had 6+ years of experience with it!


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

krandall said:


> Well, I was afraid of that and ALMOST used Pixel instead.  But I wanted to be able to show you the whole process, start to finish, in one video, and I knew I could do that with Kodi. (because of his past experience) I wasn't positive with Pixel. She understands shaping, but hasn't had 6+ years of experience with it!


Oh, I understand that for an untrained dog, new to clicker training, it won't be as easy as Kodi makes it appear! But it is something to strive for! Again, thank you so much for the effort you put into making the video and all your advice.

Yesterday during our shaping lesson, Willow actually put her front feet into the box but I had run out of treats.:frusty: I clicked anyway and gave her lots of praise and pets. Hopefully she will do that again today when I have a handful of goodies.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> Oh, I understand that for an untrained dog, new to clicker training, it won't be as easy as Kodi makes it appear! But it is something to strive for! Again, thank you so much for the effort you put into making the video and all your advice.
> 
> Yesterday during our shaping lesson, Willow actually put her front feet into the box but I had run out of treats.:frusty: I clicked anyway and gave her lots of praise and pets. Hopefully she will do that again today when I have a handful of goodies.


You're welcome!

Obviously, you want to try to end a session before you run out of treats. But if you ever run into that situation again, try praising her heavily, and as you continue to tell her what a wonderful dog she is, move as quickly as possible to wherever you keep treats (or even kibble or some peanut butter... ANYTHING she'll like) While you don't want to do this regularly, that praise can work as a "bridge" to let her know that her treat is still coming.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

krandall said:


> Obviously, you want to try to end a session before you run out of treats. But if you ever run into that situation again, try praising her heavily, and as you continue to tell her what a wonderful dog she is, move as quickly as possible to wherever you keep treats.


Again, thank you. I did give her lots of praise but I don't think I gave her any treats. Next time I'll know better. She actually put her front feet into the box a couple of times yesterday but I don't know if she did it as a shaping behaviour of just accidently looking for any treats that might have dropped in the box. I still clicked, treated and praised but she hasn't done it consistently yet. Maybe today!

I think the next shaping game I'll do after she gets this one down will be getting her to stand on a little box like you did with Kodi in the video.

By the way, Happy New Year!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> Again, thank you. I did give her lots of praise but I don't think I gave her any treats. Next time I'll know better. She actually put her front feet into the box a couple of times yesterday but I don't know if she did it as a shaping behaviour of just accidently looking for any treats that might have dropped in the box. I still clicked, treated and praised but she hasn't done it consistently yet. Maybe today!
> 
> I think the next shaping game I'll do after she gets this one down will be getting her to stand on a little box like you did with Kodi in the video.
> 
> By the way, Happy New Year!


It doesn't really matter if it's purposeful or not in the beginning. Again, think of it like the "hotter, colder" game. If the person happens to move the right way, even by mistake, you give them the feedback they need. As she becomes more familiar with shaping, she will start purposely trying different things to see if she can get you to click/treat. Then the fun REALLY begins!

If you want to shape her to get onto something, choose something sturdier and not as high as that box I used... At least to star with! And make sure it's on a surface where it won't slide out from under her and scare her. I took all kinds of liberties because I was in a hurry, and I knew it wouldn't bother Kodi, at his experience level.

A good thing to start having them stand on is a big clay tray for under a flower pot, turned upside down. This is heavy and won't move around as she jumps on and off. Other fun things to shape that can be very useful in training other behaviors later are to get on a mat, to step ino a hula hoop on the floor and turn and sit facing you, and to run away from you, go around a cone or an upright "fly pole" (toilet plungers work fine for this too) and run back to you.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Thanks Karen, These sound like fun games. I'm looking forward to trying new games once she gets this first game under her belt, so to speak.


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## Laurmann2000 (Sep 12, 2015)

Wow, Karen that's awesome. I can see that Kodi has done this type of thing before. You can just see the wheels turning in his mind trying to figure out what you want. I've never done clicker training with a dog and imagine there must be a big learning curve for the person doing the training. I feel like it would be hard to get the timing of the clicking right. I have a couple questions. Why is it discouraged to lure vs. shape? I honestly know nothing about this. And what do you mean by bumper treat?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Laurmann2000 said:


> Wow, Karen that's awesome. I can see that Kodi has done this type of thing before. You can just see the wheels turning in his mind trying to figure out what you want. I've never done clicker training with a dog and imagine there must be a big learning curve for the person doing the training. I feel like it would be hard to get the timing of the clicking right. I have a couple questions. Why is it discouraged to lure vs. shape? I honestly know nothing about this. And what do you mean by bumper treat?


One of the best ways to learn to click accurately is to have someone bounce a tennis ball on the floor. When you get to the point where you can accurately click at the same time it hits the floor, you've got it! 

There is nothing at all wrong with luring to teach a behavior. (as opposed to "bribing" which is holding out a treat to get a dog to do a known behavior) However, it's a different WAY of training, and Jackie is working on learning to "shape" behaviors with a clicker. When you are shaping, you don't lure. You want the dog to think it through, and learn through successive approximations.

There are times when luring is a great short-cut to teaching the dog what you want, like when you are working on position changes, and it is important to you to get a "tuck sit" every time the dog sits, as opposed to just "any old" sit.

Another way to use the clicker that is different than "shaping" is to "capture" a behavior. For instance, let's say you are having trouble teaching your puppy to "down"using a lure. Instead, you keep a clicker and treats with you at all times. Every time you see the puppy start to lie down on his own, you click and treat. Before long, he will make the connection, and start to off those "downs" on his own. At that point, you add the name of the behavior as he's doing it, and before long, he'll be doing it on his own!


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## Laurmann2000 (Sep 12, 2015)

Thanks for the explanations Karen. That tennis ball trick is brilliant though I'm terrible at keeping a beat so I'd probably be bad at it. LOL. I understand though that the key is the timing not keeping a beat. What is a bumper treat?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Laurmann2000 said:


> Thanks for the explanations Karen. That tennis ball trick is brilliant though I'm terrible at keeping a beat so I'd probably be bad at it. LOL. I understand though that the key is the timing not keeping a beat. What is a bumper treat?


You are right... the person bouncing that ball for you should NOT do it in a rhythm. The idea is that you need to be able to predict when the ball hits the floor and click, not just click in a rhythm.

A "bumper treat" is when you give the dog 5-10 TINY treats, individually, one after another (not just a handful) and as you dole them out, you keep praising, telling them WHAT a wonderful, smart, fantastic dog they are.


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## Laurmann2000 (Sep 12, 2015)

Ok, got it. Makes sense now.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

krandall said:


> Y
> A "bumper treat" is when you give the dog 5-10 TINY treats, individually, one after another (not just a handful) and as you dole them out, you keep praising, telling them WHAT a wonderful, smart, fantastic dog they are.


Oops. I've been giving Willow a handful all at once rather than one after the other as a bumper treat! :frown2:

Yesterday, she actually was putting her front feet in the box fairly consistently. She got all feet in the box a couple of times too. We're getting there! :grin2:


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

krandall said:


> You are right... the person bouncing that ball for you should NOT do it in a rhythm. The idea is that you need to be able to predict when the ball hits the floor and click, not just click in a rhythm.


My book has another exercise to develop clicker skills that you could use. The author says that, while watching TV, pick one behaviour and click that. Such as a nod, smiles, tosses of hair, handshakes, or whatever.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> My book has another exercise to develop clicker skills that you could use. The author says that, while watching TV, pick one behaviour and click that. Such as a nod, smiles, tosses of hair, handshakes, or whatever.


That's a good exercise for observing "clickable" behaviors, but it doesn't really help your timing. The tennis ball does that.


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## Laurmann2000 (Sep 12, 2015)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> My book has another exercise to develop clicker skills that you could use. The author says that, while watching TV, pick one behaviour and click that. Such as a nod, smiles, tosses of hair, handshakes, or whatever.


That sounds like a good one too. Thank you.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

krandall said:


> That's a good exercise for observing "clickable" behaviors, but it doesn't really help your timing. The tennis ball does that.


I see the difference. Thanks you.

We've made a huge step forward with Willow's box game. Yesterday she repeatedly would get all four feet into the box.

My next question is when do I move on to the next shaping game? Do I wait until Willow will go into the box right away 100% of the time? Or should I lower my standard to say around 95%? Is it ok for her to exhibit a couple of unwanted behaviours before actually going into the box with all 4 feet or should I strive to have her go into the box as the first behaviour she displays?


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## Laurmann2000 (Sep 12, 2015)

Wow, great job Willow. You know this forum is killing me. I just want my Havanese now so I can do all these things.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Laurmann2000 said:


> Wow, great job Willow. You know this forum is killing me. I just want my Havanese now so I can do all these things.


It is rewarding seeing Willow (and me) making progress. I never understood clicker training before. I've really only trained one other dog in my life and that was my corgi, Foxy. However, the obedience class we went to used the old choke collar and leash method. No treats for rewards, just lots of praise and pets when they did the correct command and a little leash jerk and "NO" when they didn't. I was skeptical of clicker training at first. Why would a dog react to a click but it's kind of like Pavlov's dog, I think. I'm finding the clicker training is a lot of fun.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> I see the difference. Thanks you.
> 
> We've made a huge step forward with Willow's box game. Yesterday she repeatedly would get all four feet into the box.
> 
> My next question is when do I move on to the next shaping game? Do I wait until Willow will go into the box right away 100% of the time? Or should I lower my standard to say around 95%? Is it ok for her to exhibit a couple of unwanted behaviours before actually going into the box with all 4 feet or should I strive to have her go into the box as the first behaviour she displays?


Great job! If I waited for one behavior to be complete with Kodi before starting something else, we'd never get anywhere!  currently, as well as maintaning all his Novice and Open Obedience skills, we are making good progress on the following Utility Exercises: Directed Retrieve, Directed jumping, Scent Articles, Moving Stand for Exam and Signals. Of those, he is fluent on the Moving Stand for Exam, and pretty close to fluency on Scent Articles. For all the others, he is working on specific parts of each exercise, but we aren't putting it all together yet. For instance, for Signals, he can do the stand signal (which is done out of Heeling), he can do the down signal at distance, but the signal for changing from down to sit, I have to move in close to him, or he moves forward. (Which would be either a major deduction or an NQ in competition, so we can't let that happen) We work on the recall on a signal completely separately from the other signals right now.

Dogs get bored with always doing the same thing, just like we do. Teaching her to get into a box with shaping isn't really an end goal, it's to teach you HOW to shape a behavior. I wouldn't stop working on that, but it sure sounds like you're ready to work on something else too. Even with a little puppy, I'd be working on different behaviors. Maybe not all in the same session, but a different behavior during each of several very short sessions during the day. (Like tuck sits once, fold back downs once, stands once, a bit of heeling once...). Because Kodi is older, and has built up his stamina and enthusiasm for work, we can work on many different exercises over the course of an hour lesson, and not only is he not tired... He sometimes doesn't want to leave the ring! 

Another very "shape-able" behavior is hand touches. Present your hand to her, not to close. Most dogs will sniff at it. Just like the box game, if she doesn't immediately sniff or touch your hand with her nose, don't worry about it. Click her for looking at it. Then remove your hand and present it again. Do this, using your clicks to get closer approximations of her touching your hand. When she is consistently touching her nose to your hand, start changing hands, and putting your hand in different positions.

Once a dog learns this, it becomes a fun, interactive game you cna do while waiting, or to calm them in the vet's office. It can later be morphed into nose touches to other things. For instance, we used nose touches to the ring gating as one of the ways Kodi learned to do his "go-outs"

I probably wouldn't stop working on "in the box" until she's completely fluent with it. I especially wouldn't work on any other behaviors WITH the box (like getting her to stand on it) until she REALLY understands this one, and you have it on a strong cue. Right now, it DOES sond like you're ready to add a cue, though. Does the book talk about that! Have you decided what your cue for the box behavior will be?


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

krandall said:


> it DOES sound like you're ready to add a cue, though. Does the book talk about that! Have you decided what your cue for the box behavior will be?


The book says that once the dog starts offering behaviors as soon as the box is put down, I'm supposed to offer a verbal cue (such as "what can you do" or "give me something") to signal the start of the free shaping exercise. That's all I've come across so far in regards to a cue.

If you can add any suggestions of enlighten me a little more about that I would greatly appreciate it.

Yesterday she would get into the box just about 100% of the time. She would offer a couple of behaviours first but would get into the box if I waited. It's really quite exciting to see her progressing! My husband said he didn't think she would ever get it so he was surprised!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> The book says that once the dog starts offering behaviors as soon as the box is put down, I'm supposed to offer a verbal cue (such as "what can you do" or "give me something") to signal the start of the free shaping exercise. That's all I've come across so far in regards to a cue.
> 
> If you can add any suggestions of enlighten me a little more about that I would greatly appreciate it.
> 
> Yesterday she would get into the box just about 100% of the time. She would offer a couple of behaviours first but would get into the box if I waited. It's really quite exciting to see her progressing! My husband said he didn't think she would ever get it so he was surprised!


OK, so this book is specifically about free shaping. Free shaping is different than training using shaping with a purpose. Free shaping can be lots of fun for both the handler and the the dog, but is a confusing place to start, I think, because you don't really have a clear idea what you want to get the dog to do. In my experience, the people who are the BEST trainers are those that can hold criteria very closely and at the same time, break the training down into very small steps for the dog. If you don't have a clear idea of what you want the end behavior to be, it's very hard to hold criteria.

When you are shaping a specific behavior, like "put all 4 feet in the box", it's easy to picture what you want the complete behavior to look like, and it's also pretty easy to break it down into steps. (look at the box, touch the box, one foot in the box, front feet in the box and finally, all 4 feet in the box) If you don't have a plan ahead of time, you can easily click random behaviors and just confuse the dog.

Some experienced clicker trainers/free shapers have a really good eye for seeing something cute, marking it, and then deciding that that's a behavior worth pursuing. A LTO of circus tricks are taught this way... seeing what each individual dog has a talent for and wants to offer. (and there is a "naughty dog" in every circus dog performance, where even the little trouble maker has had HIS behaviors put on cue!  ) There are some REALLY cute things that Pixel does, like walking across the kitchen with her arms over her head that I would LOVE to put on cue. But I'm just not good enough/fast enough to "capture" that behavior regularly enough for her to understand that it's something I'd like her to do when I ask.

For most of us "mere mortal" dog trainers, using shaping to get a specific, planned, behavior is MUCH easier. In this case when the dog is giving to the behavior about 70% of the time, you can start saying your cue word AS she is doing the behavior. (not beforehand, because she still has no idea what the word means) eventually, and with a Havanese, it usually doesn't take long, she will start to respond to the cue when it is said just before the behavior. At that point, when you are quite sure that she understands the word, it is VERY important that you only say the cue word ONCE and WAIT for her to respond. Don't say it over and over, or she will never learn to respond to a single cue. (that's the problem LOTS of people fall into when they say, "Sit, sit, SIT!!!" or whatever) This is another point in training where the clicker can come in very handy, by doing "time trials" of whatever cue. For instance, once you are SURE the dog knows the cue, is responding correctly 95% of the time, but may be a little slow at it, give yourself 30-60 seconds. Give the cue, when the dog responds, click, and rather than handing them the treat drop it just far enough away that they have to reposition themselves. (in your case, get out of the box). Then give the cue again and repeat. See how many reps you can get in your chosen amount of time. Do this every few days, and you'll be AMAZED how fast she's jumping in that box to get another cookie! 

As far as "What can you do" or"Give me something" are concerned, those are REALLY long cues. Dogs don't process language particularly well, and coming up with a one or two word cue will be much easier for her to learn and associate with what you want. But, if free shaping is your end goal, the book is right... you want to put that on cue. Incidentally, I think this is a fine activity for a Havanese... I have seen some Border Collies become really obsessive with this game, and really hard to turn off. But then, BC's tend to be OCD'ish anyway, if they don't have a "real" job. (like herding sheep)


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

You are a great help Karen. I did figure out that I had to present the treat outside the box so that I could get her to go back into it again. I'll try adding a cue word as she goes into the box (maybe I'll use "feet". Then when she does I'll click and drop the treat outside the box. When I think she knows what "feet" means, I'll say it before she is in the box.

I'm also thinking I should get her to stay in the box until I give her some command to exit the box, rather than her just jumping back out when she wants to. I know I'll need her to stay in the "sit" position until I give her a release command when I get to that point, so I thought I should do that with the box too. When I was training my corgi, I used "ok!" as my release command. I haven't found in the book how to use a release command yet.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> You are a great help Karen. I did figure out that I had to present the treat outside the box so that I could get her to go back into it again. I'll try adding a cue word as she goes into the box (maybe I'll use "feet". Then when she does I'll click and drop the treat outside the box. When I think she knows what "feet" means, I'll say it before she is in the box.
> 
> I'm also thinking I should get her to stay in the box until I give her some command to exit the box, rather than her just jumping back out when she wants to. I know I'll need her to stay in the "sit" position until I give her a release command when I get to that point, so I thought I should do that with the box too. When I was training my corgi, I used "ok!" as my release command. I haven't found in the book how to use a release command yet.


Yes, duration takes a LOT longer to get. You should work on duration in various positions (sit, stand and down) outside the context of the box to start with. Once she understands "stay" or "wait", it will be much easier to increase duration for sitting in the box.

While SOME people use clickers for teaching duration, it's NOT easy. Most people find duration easier to teach in other ways.


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