# orthopedic evaluation report



## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

(Below is a long report about Shama's orthopedic evaluation yesterday. It may be of interest to those of you who've had a limping dog and to those of you who do agility or to those of you interested in general dog health.)

On June 29, I posted this somewhere in the forum (in one of the threads about a limping dog) . . .

_Shama has yelped three times recently, once when jumping off the recliner, once when walking on my neighbor's patio - a flat surface, and once when racing up our stairs. She had a little limp at agility class on Friday, but then she stopped limping and had a perfect run. That's the only time we've observed her limping, and my classmates and trainers had me walk her past them heeling to check for the limp before they determined she was no longer limping._

Taking the advice of several members of the forum, I took Shama to see the vet on July 11. We found out what we'd known already, that she has a luxating patella (floating/loose kneecap).

Then a forum member PMed me to suggest I have Shama checked out by a specialist to be sure she wasn't in danger of suffering a cruciate ligament rupture (according to Google, "Dogs with other knee problems such as a luxating patella may also be predisposed to rupturing their cruciate ligaments.")

Our regular vet, who was not the vet who saw Shama on July 11, concurred that it would not be a bad idea to have Shama checked out by an orthopedic specialist, especially since she is "not your average couch potato."

Yesterday, on August 23, we took Shama to see a small animal surgeon who had been recommended by our regular vet. I took two pages of handwritten notes while she was talking to us. (I was glad I did that because the notes that I received from her later were in doctor shorthand which I can't understand.)

Below are some of my notes which could help other forum members . . .

The fact that Shama is "well muscled" indicates that she's not favoring one leg over the other.

Both of her kneecaps are loose. This is common in small dogs and does not necessarily pose a problem. In Shama's case, she doesn't seem to be adversely affected by the popping in and out of her kneecaps. She said a dog with a kneecap problem would be limping.

Her cruciate ligaments are fine. They're not loose, and there's no fluid in the knees which could indicate cruciate problems. She said cruciate ligament problems are not common to the Havanese and that she has rarely seen a Havanese with a cruciate ligament problem. She said a dog with a ruptured cruciate ligament would not be able to walk.

She observed that Shama's hips hurt (by gently pulling back on her leg one at a time and noticing her vocalizing discomfort where other dogs wouldn't react). She said that could be arthritis secondary to a number of things.

She said we could either . . .

do nothing (i.e., monitor for worsening of symptoms and/or decreased ability) and pursue a "work-up" (x-ray hips, pelvis, spine, rear legs) only if a problem becomes evident . . .

or . . .

do a work-up now in order to have a better idea of the source of her hip discomfort.

She said that either course of action would probably result in the same recommendation for joint supplements (fish oil and glucosamine) and healthy lifestyle (proper nutrition, weight management, exercise).

She said Shama's age (almost 2.25 years) and breed suggest there's no need to worry about cancer.

She said shoulder injuries tend to occur more than leg injuries in small agility dogs and that Shama shows no evidence of shoulder injury.

The doctor could not say what exactly caused Shama to yelp three times recently.

The bottom line is that Shama is healthy and does not need to curtail her active lifestyle. (Hurray!) She said that there's no problem with Shama doing agility as it's kind of the dog equivalent of going to the gym. She did say that Shama should probably not become a frisbee dog. That made us all laugh because we have never envisioned that for Shama. (Do any Havanese play frisbee?)

I asked her if there was any message she wanted to give to the members of the forum. She said we should keep our dogs healthy, lean, athletic, and agile. She specifically said that keeping a dog lean, athletic, and agile is good prevention for cruciate ligament injuries.

I asked her if having your dog stretch before agility is important, because my agility trainer emphasized stretching early on, but now I don't see anyone stretching their dogs before running them. She said warming up and stretching is definitely advised, especially as a dog ages, just as it is for human athletic activity.

I am going to call her with three follow-up questions. Could having Shama "sit pretty" have contributed to her hip pain? Why does a dog who ruptures one cruciate ligament frequently rupture the other? (Could the fact that Shama occasionally sits and refuses to advance during our walks be related to her hips? I thought it was due to the summer heat and her lack of stamina.)


----------



## Cassandra (Dec 29, 2015)

Thanks for sharing this detailed information. Although Cassie doesn't do agility, I appreciate information on things to watch for in small dogs. My aging golden retriever had various mobility issues, like arthritis and a pulled ligament, so I am super sensitive...


----------



## Genie1000 (Apr 13, 2017)

Thank you for sharing. There is a lot of good info for all there!


----------



## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Great information thank you so much for sharing!

Arthritis in her hips at such a young age? Is that common?

During Sophie's first year she would often suddenly yelp when playing and then stop playing and sit still. Never a limp. But of course worried me sick. She also did it on a couple of walks while putting head down to smell something. She now has not done it for about a year and I don't know if it was related to growing or if it was due to her not yet totally respecting the leash and sometimes would bolt suddenly after a bird etc on walks and as careful as I was sometimes did hit the end of the leash harder than I liked. She also has had a "popping" shoulder for a while, not audibly at all but you can feel it when you pick her up. Neurologist we once went to (for what turned out to be a bee sting but that's another story for another time LOL) also noticed the popping shoulder. But I haven't felt that either now for many months. 

She has never limped but she does do something funny with her back end at times on our walks kind of throws her back leg or legs to the side now and then while trotting or running. I was worried about luxating patellas (that don't run in her line at all but then neither does IBD or allergies and she has both) or hip issues. Her recent stifle injury while running and then making a sharp turn was a blessing in disguise because we got XRays so now I know her hips are fine as well as her patellas. 

We have a fitness trainer come to the house to work with her on fit paws equipment for the reasons you mentioned, to keep her body strong and hopefully avoid injuries. It has made a huge difference in a friend of mine's doxie with neck issues. I will start the underwater treadmill with her also as soon as the new facility near my house opens up in a month or so. (super excited). 

FWIW the fitness trainer does have her sit pretty which I always thought was bad because we were always told not to let our doxies do that. But I the doxie that was helped with all this was taught that also (by a different fitness trainer) and she is SO strong now she can sit up or stand up and walk on her hind legs. Which they try not to let her do. But she easily can now. So I'm not 100% sure either if that is a good or bad thing but my guess is if you do it right and build them up slowly it's a good thing. Will be interested in what your vet says about that.

I also try to keep her at a steady trot on our walks (haha....have you met Sophie??)  to work her muscles properly. And at home I have padding everywhere, on floor around sofas, bed, in van on floor (I let her out of her crate in the van when I leave her in there for a short time) etc. She is small and I don't like the jarring of hitting the floor. I also don't let her do stairs. I had enough of back problems with my poor doxies which is why I never got another one after losing my dear Hallie so don't want to take any chances. I would have loved to do agility with Sophie she would have been a whiz I think but it scares me too much I have known too many dogs who do agility who are messed up as they get older or get injuries from falling or jumping off something wrong. A friend of mine lost her doxie Murphy to a jump off the cat walk too soon. (went paralyzed not only rear but also front and her diaphragm as well which I'd never heard of before or since!). 

But that is a doxie thing Havanese I know are much more sturdy in that respect and don't go totally crazy usually like some breeds do in the agility ring. I'm just tainted from doxie backs for 20 years  

Oh and Sophie loves to do frisbee LOL she leaps up at the counter in the kitchen where I keep it and cries until I take it out for her to chase and bring back. Another thing I wouldn't let her do very hard on their joints when stopping and turning fast but I figured out a safer way by throwing into so it slides partly under her agility tunnel so she has to slow down and also bounce into the tunnel like an airbag before getting the frisbee. I also will have it land next to a fence or wall and will set up obstacles to throw it over so she has to run behind them to get it which slows her down alot also. 

I believe the other cruciate ligament risk when one tears or ruptures is due to the extra stress and weight put on the non injured leg. I've seen that happen several times with friends dogs also.

I also used to worry about Sophie suddenly stopping and "collapsing" to the ground on walks. None of my other dogs ever did that. I'm betting that the heat is why Shama does that, she has havanese friends we walk with and they do the same thing also. I worried about her last summer with that when she was a year old and watched her when winter came. As soon as it got cool again she stopped the stopping and dropping and the panting. Now she wears a cool coat and gets misted on walks and she can tolerate them better but still does it at times. 

Anyway didn't mean to take over your post some but am very interested in this topic since I have worries with Sophie also and really appreciate your detailed information on Shama's visit. Love that everyone can share here and learn from each other. Very good news overall with your little girl!


----------



## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

Once he is old enough, I plan on getting Nino's hips and patella tested (and submitted to OFA as a favor to his breeder). I'm not worried about hips, but Mario has a low-grade luxating patella. Nino has shown no signs of any ouchies, but I would rather be safe than sorry given his...intensity :laugh:

PS: Nino LOVES his disc. I have a number of friends in the local disc dog club, and I have been encouraged by them to give it a shot with him (sans high vaulting tricks).


----------



## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

This one didn't want to attach. Uphill disc fetch and tug is how he gets a lot of his conditioning


----------



## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Need to read Dee Dee's post later as don't have time now, but no worries about "taking over my post" as I'm interested, and I'm sure others are too. For now, just wanted to say just spoke with doctor about my follow-up questions. She said sitting pretty probably didn't contribute to Shama's hip pain (I prefer to think of it as discomfort!) and that she actually prescribes that exercise to patients with hip displaysia as it stretches/strengthens the hips. She said it was good for her feet to be apart balancing in a sit pretty posture. She also said she couldn't say for sure about why Shama stops and refuses to advance during a walk but that she didn't think it was stamina given how active she is at other times during her day (running around yard, in house, up and down stairs in house and from yard up to deck and into house, agility classes, obedience classes). Finally, she said it's unknown why the likelihood of the second cruciate ligament rupturing after the first is so high.


----------



## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

I'm glad to hear Shama's is doing great. When Scout goes to his next appointment I will to ask why it's common for the cruciate ligament to rupture in the opposite leg.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

My vet put Kodi on Glucosamine When he was quite young, just because he did agility. I have Panda on it already.

Unfortunately, it is NOT only "couch potato-type dogs who rupture their cruciates. ALL the dogs I know who have ruptured cruciate have been fit, sports dogs. That doesn't mean it doesn't ALSO happen to "pet" dogs, but I know a double handful, and they have all been sports dogs, and they have also all, eventually had the second leg go. We joke that then they re fine, because they are "out of legs".  The only non-sports dogs that I know, happen to all be Havanese... Two had partial tears that recovered with conservative treatment, and then poor Scout, here on the forum. I DON'T think that's because it's a big problem in the breed, however, it's just that I know more people with Havanese than any other single breed. 

I was also told by my vet, who has an integrative practice, and is also a magician of a chiropractor, that teaching my three Havanese to "sit pretty" was really good for their core strength. She encouraged me to get them all doing it... especially Kodi, because of his age. He is finding it hardest to learn, not surprisingly! I can lure the girls into that position... I have to help him with a hand on his back to get him up and stable. The very told me only to ask him in tiny bits for now, because it is really hard work for his muscles.

My vet also discourages EVERYONE from doing serious disk-dog stuff with their dogs. She says she sees more injuries from that sport than any other. In ALL breeds. She isn't talking about casually tossing the disk around in the backyard, though. The real, COMPETITIVE disk dog stuff is CRAZY!!! 

I think it's great that Shama checks out as OK to do what you want to do with her. I WOULD consider finding a good chiro person to work on her if her hips are sore, though. It MIGHT by arthritis, but it MIGHT also be something our of alignment or a muscle problem. It's likely that someone in your training center can send you in the direction of someone. Kodi gets chiro every 6-8 weeks, just to keep him tuned up, after a pretty significant muscle injury when he was about 2 1/2. I don't like him to get uncomfortable and THEN respond. I'd rather stay ahead of it, since I do ask him to work hard. The girls get an occasional tune-up, but haven't shown any signs of trouble. 

Dee Dee, I can understand your fear of a Doxie getting hurt in agility... The instructors around here usually won't even let one in a class. The risk is too high for them. Heck... walking around is risky for a Doxie! LOL! But it really is not a problem for the average, soundly built Havanese. (those with bad fronts are a different story) The dog who convinced me to get involved with this breed recently turned 15, and is still running agility!  Of course you don't want dogs of any size or shape launching off high equipment, but that's why it is important to teach good contacts. We are even careful about that... My dogs ONLY do running contact, because I don't want any spinal compression with hard stops at the bottom of contacts. No 2 on 2 off for us! 

As far as "collapsing" on walks, Kodi does it sometimes too... BUT he ONLY "collapses" on warm days, in the shade, on nice green grass... stretched out on his belly. :laugh: I am QUITE certain it is heat, not pain. ound:


----------



## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

> Dee Dee, I can understand your fear of a Doxie getting hurt in agility... The instructors around here usually won't even let one in a class. The risk is too high for them. Heck... walking around is risky for a Doxie! LOL! But it really is not a problem for the average, soundly built Havanese. (those with bad fronts are a different story) The dog who convinced me to get involved with this breed recently turned 15, and is still running agility! Of course you don't want dogs of any size or shape launching off high equipment, but that's why it is important to teach good contacts. We are even careful about that... My dogs ONLY do running contact, because I don't want any spinal compression with hard stops at the bottom of contacts. No 2 on 2 off for us!


I agree we are messing up so many breeds and doxies have taken the brunt! Ridiculous how long and now how BIG they are getting. I know of a 40 lb longhair boy. Not fat. Should be a crime they are just set up for all kinds of suffering.  Which of course is why I got a havanese I studied breeds for many years and got set on them a while ago.  I do know of havanese with IVDD though not nearly as many as doxies of course and not that many anyway but they are listed as a breed that can tend to get it so am not wanting to tempt fate. Never want to go through that again. Plus Sophie is on the small side. So a jump down from something is harder on her than a bigger havie.

Many of my dog show and dog training friends also do agility and a lot of them have issues with arthritis and joint problems as older dogs vs their dogs that don't do agility. These aren't havanese, I don't know anyone personally here with a havanese doing agility, but all breeds and sizes. I just wouldn't take the chance after my experiences with all the health issues but most people dont' have as bad of luck as I do! 

Agree on the disc sport! Looks really fun but makes me cringe! Also agree on the sitting pretty, I think if done right, like you say in small increments and let them build up, it is a really good thing!


----------



## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

How can these dogs NOT all end up with back issues? They are deformed. It should be a crime but instead this is what wins in the ring so it's just going to keep getting rewarded and getting worse and worse and driving me more and more nuts. Not fair to set these dogs up for suffering then keep on doing it! I know of doxies whose back goes out while whelping can you imagine??

Like someone mentioned, I hope Havanese aren't featured in a film and go off the charts popular they could end up with twice the coat and half the bone! 0

End of rant.


----------



## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

Very interesting, Dee Dee, that your experience points you one way, while mine points me in another. Across all breeds and across all sizes, I have noticed increased longevity of health and vitality in dogs that have been properly and safely trained in agility. I would say nearly 25% of the dogs at last weekend were over the age of 8, many over 10, and doing just beautifully performance and health wise. It may depend on who you interact with and the kind of training one does. My experiences have been similar to Karen's. When trained properly, the benefits of agility are immense and outweigh the small chance of risk, if you ask me (though my dogs are also allowed to use stairs and run and turn as they please, without restriction...different strokes, I suppose).

I suppose that's why anecdotal evidence is to be taken with a grain of salt


----------



## Tux's Mom (May 24, 2016)

ShamaMama said:


> Need to read Dee Dee's post later as don't have time now, but no worries about "taking over my post" as I'm interested, and I'm sure others are too. For now, just wanted to say just spoke with doctor about my follow-up questions. She said sitting pretty probably didn't contribute to Shama's hip pain (I prefer to think of it as discomfort!) and that she actually prescribes that exercise to patients with hip displaysia as it stretches/strengthens the hips. She said it was good for her feet to be apart balancing in a sit pretty posture. She also said she couldn't say for sure about why Shama stops and refuses to advance during a walk but that she didn't think it was stamina given how active she is at other times during her day (running around yard, in house, up and down stairs in house and from yard up to deck and into house, agility classes, obedience classes). Finally, she said it's unknown why the likelihood of the second cruciate ligament rupturing after the first is so high.


Our first Havanese, and now Tux, would both protest a walk when the weather was too hot. We got Tux a year and a half after Hanna died, but the similarities of their body languages are eerie. The "heat protest" was a sudden drop to the pavement, head and chin pressed against the ground with eyes turned up in a plea that said, "If you want me to walk one more step, you'll have to drag me!" They may be from Cuba, but they are far from tolerating "tropical".....and we live in south Florida. Once inside with the air conditioning, the zoomies (I call it cracker dog) would erupt in full display consisting of racing around until they were panting with glee.

At ten years of age, Hanna developed serious issues due to a hole in her spine by her withers that was found on a CT scan when she started losing control of her back legs. Gainesville Pet Hospital discovered it. They said they had never seen anything like it before. Interestingly it was exactly where her I.D. chip was inserted years before. About the same period of time, and in the same location of the microchip, I had given her a dose on her withers with a different flea preventive called Advantix. A new vet in Hawaii recommended it after determining she was allergic to fleas and mosquitos. Soon afterward, I thought she might die from it. The reaction several hours after the application was terrible with vomiting and lethargy. I washed her in Dawn immediately. Never gave her another flea preventative. She was 10 at the time. She deteriorated from that day on and gradually died of liver failure after two years of prednisone and other medications to keep her mobile. I strongly suspect the microchip insertion was to blame, and the Advantix added fuel to the fire. I went online and discovered a LOT of dogs had suffered terribly after doses of Advantix.

With Tux, I don't use anything. He is inside mostly or on a sidewalk, so I would rather risk a flea or two than dolloping poison on his skin once a month. Note the warning labels tell humans to avoid getting that stuff on your own skin. No surprise, but I refuse to microchip also. I'm going to titer before any further vaccines. I'll do anything I can to protect this little guy.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I waffled on chipping, and finally decided that the possibility of them getting stolen or getting out of the car was riskier than the possibility of problems with the chip. 

I HATE using tick prevention (fleas are not a huge problem for us) but we live in an area where tick born diseases are a fact of life. I use them as infrequently as possible... About twice in the average year. Fortunately, I have had a good experience with Advantix (and I do know that is very individual) because in this area, the only thing that is working better than Advantix in repelling ticks is those new collars... And my vet REALLY discourages the use of the collars on small breed dogs. (even if mine wore collars on a regular basis)

I often feel like we're ****ed if we do and ****ed if we don't!


----------



## Tux's Mom (May 24, 2016)

krandall said:


> I waffled on chipping, and finally decided that the possibility of them getting stolen or getting out of the car was riskier than the possibility of problems with the chip.
> 
> I HATE using tick prevention (fleas are not a huge problem for us) but we live in an area where tick born diseases are a fact of life. I use them as infrequently as possible... About twice in the average year. Fortunately, I have had a good experience with Advantix (and I do know that is very individual) because in this area, the only thing that is working better than Advantix in repelling ticks is those new collars... And my vet REALLY discourages the use of the collars on small breed dogs. (even if mine wore collars on a regular basis)
> 
> I often feel like we're ****ed if we do and ****ed if we don't!


So true. I think that Hanna's hole in her spine (whether caused by the chip insertion or not) most likely exacerbated her condition when the Advantix was administered. I also think that K9 Advantix has changed their product since 2008 (hopefully). If we lived in a rural area and Tux were exposed to critters in the grass and trees, I believe I would feel uncomfortable NOT giving him protection.


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

This is an interesting thread.

When I first got Willow I noticed that she would sometimes kick out with a hind leg when trotting. The vet said he could feel that her knee cap was loose and she had a low grade luxating patella. She still does this occasionally but not nearly as much as she used to. I have a sneaking suspicion that this was brought on when she jumped off my bed. I couldn't stop her in time and it's a bed that sits up high off the floor.

As far as Advantix, I've used it on both Willow and my corgi, Foxy. So far I have had no problems with either dog. It does seem to make them itchy in the application spots for a few days, however. I have read that it repels ticks for only a week or so after application and that in heavily tick infested areas it should be applied more frequently. I called their customer support number once and asked if it was ok to apply a day or two earlier than the recommended monthly application as we were going out of town and I wanted to get it done before we left. The gal on the phone said it could actually be applied weekly. I would never do this however!

As far as long-backed dogs, I agree with Dee Dee! It's a travesty what breeders are doing now. If you see pictures of corgis from Queen Elizabeth's childhood years or any other old time pictures, they look like a completely different breed. The legs are longer and the body is shorter. I bet the same goes for doxies. And then there are the German Shepherds. They now look completely deformed!


----------



## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> This is an interesting thread.
> 
> When I first got Willow I noticed that she would sometimes kick out with a hind leg when trotting. The vet said he could feel that her knee cap was loose and she had a low grade luxating patella. She still does this occasionally but not nearly as much as she used to. I have a sneaking suspicion that this was brought on when she jumped off my bed. I couldn't stop her in time and it's a bed that sits up high off the floor.
> 
> ...


I noticed Scout all of a sudden started stretching his hind legs out while standing. I took him to two vets. One said his patella were ok. The second said he had a very slight luxation, but nothing to be concerned about. My understanding is over time the patella slides and causes the cruciate ligament to stretch which can cause it to rupture. The surgeon explained it thoroughly on a model of the knee, but I was overwhelmed hearing he needed surgery. Scout was very active running and jumping which probably caused the ligament to stretch. He's doing great and back to his happy self. &#128522;


----------



## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

So glad to hear Scout is back to himself! Yeah!!!!

Jackie do you find that Advantix works for Willow? I have been very lucky to not have fleas so don't use anything other than fleabusters on the floor if anyone comes over with a dog with fleas but a friend of mine brings her yorkie over and every time she is crawling with them! They have been using advantix and they also added a flea collar (yikes!) but even with all that she still has tone of fleas. She had bathed her just before coming over today and soaked her in a vinegar soak and saw a lot of fleas in the water but at my house we got at least 30 more off of her. now of coures worried Sophie will get them. I gave her some fleabusters to try but sounds like they have a very hard case. 

So scary about Hanna's hole! Who would have thought a chip could do that. Gads. I am sort of wishing Sophie didn't have one now. 

KarMar that is great to hear what your experience has been! And totally agree with you about the anecdotal evidence and grain of salt.  Everyone's experience is different like you say and mine has been pretty tragic so I tend toward the overly protective side. Ok well I TOTALLY go overboard on the overly protective side.  I dont' want any repeats of the past if I can help it. Not only is Sophie not allowed to do stairs but I have cushions everywhere for her to jump off furniture and bed onto and thankfully still have the ramp on my back stairs outside I had for Hallie and my doxie Jessie before her. I do work her on the fit paws equipment (her "personal trainer"  is coming tomorrow for another session. And I also take her on walks at a trot for conditioning as well as acupuncture and chiropractic checks. Also do the chiro after going under anesthesia just to be safe since they can be cranked around a bit while under. 

I did do weaves and tunnels in agility with my doxie Hallie and she loved it! I am training Sophie agility now in the back yard only I'm training her to do it with the correct commands but all wrong since I know I'll never compete with her. Like "OVER" the jump she slips under at a full run, does the weaves backwards, etc. Working now on having her stop midway thru tunnel and roll it across the yard. When we have obstacles we improvise ha. 

It could be that some of my friends that do agility and have had issues didn't condition them correctly and train it properly since those dogs are now older. I know they are doing it right with their new generation they have now for sure so will be interesting to see what happens in a few years when these dogs are older. Although for me, another fear I have is accidents, some of my friends have also experienced that with their dogs, one golden fell off the teeter and injured her shoulder, another tripped over her dog (!!!) and they were both injured, etc. Again it comes down to personal experience and since I've had very bad luck with my dogs health and soundness even though I did everything preventative possible and they still suffered from it, that now makes me gun shy to let Sophie do too much off the ground. I would need to run the course with an oxygen tank and a load of xanax  even though I know the majority don't have problems. I may consider doing weaves and tunnels with Sophie although she is already trained wrong for it lol.


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Dee Dee said:


> Jackie do you find that Advantix works for Willow? I have been very lucky to not have fleas so don't use anything other than fleabusters on the floor if anyone comes over with a dog with fleas but a friend of mine brings her yorkie over and every time she is crawling with them! They have been using advantix and they also added a flea collar (yikes!) but even with all that she still has tone of fleas. She had bathed her just before coming over today and soaked her in a vinegar soak and saw a lot of fleas in the water but at my house we got at least 30 more off of her. now of coures worried Sophie will get them. I gave her some fleabusters to try but sounds like they have a very hard case.


I haven't seen any sign of fleas on Willow. She got a tick a couple of years ago and that's when I started using Advantix on her and I haven't seen a tick since. Same with my corgi. Every time we went camping in eastern Washington she would come back with a tick. After I started using Advantix on her she never got another.

I'm surprise the yorkie is getting fleas if she is on Advantix plus a flea collar! That seems really odd! Never heard of fleabusters, but I found it on Amazon. I didn't know there was a product like that. Good to know.


----------



## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Thanks for all your posts. 

Dee Dee, I think the doctor said the hip pain COULD be arthritis brought on by another condition but that we couldn't know for sure without a work-up. Like Karen said, it could be a muscle or alignment problem. Karen, one of my trainers recommended a dog chiropractor (and massage therapist!) before I saw your post suggesting I inquire about it at my training center! Karen, wish I'd known that you only did running contacts when I was deciding between that and 2 on 2 off. I ultimately did decide on running contacts (after finding out that's what KarMar does with Nino), but it would have saved me time and brain power . . . (Tux's Mom, take note!) 

Shama never "collapses" on walks. She just sits and can't be convinced to continue. I end up picking her up and carrying her until she gets squirmy. The doctor said it could be the heat or boredom/stubbornness. I've somewhat given up on regular walks with Shama. I haven't had the patience to prevent her from pulling (even though she can walk on a loose leash at obedience class), and I haven't had the patience to figure out why she sits when we're out for exercise. I've found that if I want exercise, I need to walk WITHOUT Shama! (Shama didn't sit down once at the Animal Humane Society's Walk For Animals. She kept up with the crowd around her. So we do go for walks on occasion.) 

Shama's favorite form of exercise is off-leash: in our house, including up and down steps, and in our fenced-in back yard, including steps up to the deck and the sliding glass door. She also seems to love running, jumping, and climbing off-leash at agility training. I think my favorite is when she runs around the "track" in the back yard in the winter. The snow will be piled up three times her height, but she roars full-speed-ahead on the paths that we've stomped out for her. I really do need to try to make a video of that this winter. (It was a pleasant surprise to realize that this Cuban dog has no qualms about going outside for potty and exercise in the Minnesota winters!)


----------



## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

LOL yes you do need a video of Shama doing that!  She is really such a little doll! Thanks for clarifying what your Dr said about the arthritis I would think, and hope it is just an alignement or muscle issue. And I did have to laugh to picture her sitting and not budging.  I love naughty puppies they are so funny! 

Thank you Jackie, it does seem strange Katie would have so many fleas while on advantix. We are getting her again this Tuesday for about a week so she'll be getting another bath here as soon as her mom leaves lol. Her mom doesn't care at all if I bathe her I just wouldn't want to offend or embarrass her.


----------



## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Shama sitting pretty for exercise this morning . . . and with some friends earlier this week.


----------



## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Pretty girl!


----------



## Maistjarna (Oct 15, 2016)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> As far as long-backed dogs, I agree with Dee Dee! It's a travesty what breeders are doing now. If you see pictures of corgis from Queen Elizabeth's childhood years or any other old time pictures, they look like a completely different breed. The legs are longer and the body is shorter. I bet the same goes for doxies. And then there are the German Shepherds. They now look completely deformed!


https://dogbehaviorscience.wordpress.com/2012/09/29/100-years-of-breed-improvement/amp/


----------



## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Maistjarna said:


> https://dogbehaviorscience.wordpress.com/2012/09/29/100-years-of-breed-improvement/amp/


Interesting article. Wonder why the face structure was changed and how it was done?


----------



## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

omgosh that is totally adorable!!!!!! Shama is SUCH a doll! I love her.


----------



## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

I love that article too. It shows what damage we are doing. I was at the British Museum of Natural History years ago and they had a display of real stuffed dogs from 100 years ago of different breeds as well as charts on the wall showing the changes and in some of the breeds dachshund included you wouldn't recognize them as the same dog today.


----------



## Maistjarna (Oct 15, 2016)

With the daschund it almost looks like the knee is always bent









Luna standing normaly









And me holding her leg up so the knee is bent


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Maistjarna said:


> With the daschund it almost looks like the knee is always bent
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Even Doxies (even MODERN Doxies) don't hold this stance naturally. They are taught to stand that way just for show.

It's just like GSD's... yes, their hind ends are bad, and they are breeding them for a sloping top line, but they stand them for show in a way that accentuates it even more.


----------



## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Maistjarna said:


> https://dogbehaviorscience.wordpress.com/2012/09/29/100-years-of-breed-improvement/amp/


Thanks for posting this link. Interesting.


----------



## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

You are right about the dachshund angulation it's way overdone in the rear. Much sharper angle than other breeds. When hock is perpendicular to ground, lower thigh perpendicular to hock. A doxie with angles like Luna would be considered incorrect and not win. So they keep breeding them that way.


----------



## April R (Oct 29, 2016)

Very interesting information. My previous Havanese, Spencer had grade 3 patella luxation and two cruciate ligament surgeries. Frederick had two cruciate ligament surgeries. 

We give Jade and Harley glucosamine everyday. They go to agility classes just to keep them active. 
So far they are doing well.


----------



## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

April Jade and Harley are to die for! SO cute both of them!!
Sorry to hear about your problems with Spencer and Frederick. It seems to be always something with these guys!

I have been interested in this topic too because I always thought lifelong agility meant breakdown later in life. I am not knocking it or promoting it just have been sleuthing a bit to find out more for my own curiosity. I talked to a friend with an 11 yr old mini (very large) poodle yesterday who did it for years and he's doing great. I talked to another friend with a 10 yr old aussie who did it for years and is a mess. His littermates didn't do agility and are fine. But of course that doesn't mean agility was the cause of Busters issues.

I also talked to Sophie's fit trainer who came to do a session with her two days ago. Her experience is she does see more agility dogs in for treatment than other dogs but not by a large margin. She said like any sport even with humans lifelong jarring at any level to the joints is bound to have an effect. But I know many agility dogs who do well older too. So my take on it is if the dog is evaluated and deemed to be sound to begin with and then is trained and conditioned properly it's usually fine. And of course if no accidents or falls happen (that is the main part that keeps me from doing it with Sophie. She'd try to leap the moon and land on her head ). And also I would think it would be the high intensity larger dogs that would have the worst of it (which Buster was). It doesn't look like much force at all on the little guys I've seen the videos of here. 

So again not knocking it at all and hope I don't sound like a know it all because I am more of a know it none! But just sharing what I've learned from talking to some people recently as I was wanting more info myself. I have been told by 3 vets Sophie has "loose ligaments' but not enough to cause concern. And as she's matured sure enough they now say they feel tighter and I no longer can feel her shoulder popping like I used to when picking her up when she was younger. 

I did though just find her a swimming pool for dogs to add to her conditioning program! LOL. Man it's going to be a loooot of hair drying after these swims.


----------



## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

April R said:


> Very interesting information. My previous Havanese, Spencer had grade 3 patella luxation and two cruciate ligament surgeries. Frederick had two cruciate ligament surgeries.
> 
> We give Jade and Harley glucosamine everyday. They go to agility classes just to keep them active.
> So far they are doing well.


April, I'm curious if you doggies did water therapy after surgery?


----------



## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Love to see photos of Harley and Jade. Such sweeties! 

Dee Dee, I have a few thoughts about your post but now only have time to say that you may find that Sophie doesn't go all out crazy at agility because of your connection. At one point, one of my trainers praised Shama and me for how well she would slow down at the end of an obstacle when I said, "Wait . . ." I told her it's because that's what she's had to do during every photo shoot since she was a wee pup. Strike a pose, and, "Wait . . ." Then sound of camera shooting picture, then yummy treat. Maybe Sophie would also slow down for you in a risky situation when she's first learning (ultimately, of course, they're supposed to go Havanese fast!) More later . . .


----------



## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

Maistjarna said:


> With the daschund it almost looks like the knee is always bent
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To be fair, you should see decent bend of stifle in most dogs when standing square. A rear with angles, not to excess, is one that will be best suited for an active lifestyle (ans longevity in that activity) 

Quick edit to say that I hadn't seen your pictures of your Luna. In that photo, the Dachshund is to excess. Luna has nice rear angles...but the knee will always be "bent" in most breeds. If I were not mobile, I would post examples of a straighter rear...but alas... Bull Terriees typically lack rear angulation.


----------



## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

> Bull Terriees typically lack rear angulation.


And Akitas, chow, shar pei several of the nordic breeds

Yes you have to have some angulation that should match the angulation in the front for a sound dog. Too many breeds are taking things to the extreme.

Thanks for that ShamaMama! I am laughing now picturing (pun intended) myself training Sophie with a camera around my neck. LOL!!! i could see where the early photos with Shama helps with the "wait".


----------



## April R (Oct 29, 2016)

Heather's said:


> April, I'm curious if you doggies did water therapy after surgery?


We would have tried it, but there weren't any places that offered that therapy.

Spencer was very bow legged so we think that is what caused his leg problems. They did pretty well after surgery, though.


----------



## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Scout had his eight week exam today. The surgeon said he was doing great and his knees are solid. We can increase his walking, but no running or jumping until his next appointment on 🎃 😊.


----------



## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Great to hear, Heather! His next appointment is on Halloween?


----------



## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

ShamaMama said:


> Great to hear, Heather! His next appointment is on Halloween?


Scout's last appointment is on Halloween. I'm supposed to slowly increase his walking. No stairs or running, which he would do if we weren't watching! Plus he needs to lose 1.5lbs! &#128577; I think that will be easy now that he will be going on longer walks. He definitely back to being a happy boy throwing his toys around and attacking Truffles. &#128522;


----------



## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

Turns out Migo has luxating patellas as well. I didn't know there was a problem until I brought him to see a different vet (definitely switching vets now). He never limps or has trouble running like crazy around the house or outside. He is obviously way too young for agility, and my trainer said that she wouldn't allow it now anyway. We are starting nosework this Sunday though! My trainer said that he should be okay with rally once we get there.

I spoke to my breeder about it and about my disappointment of not getting to do agility as I intended. I don't blame her AT ALL, she's wonderful and only breeds dogs who have passed the health tests. In fact, her contract guarantees against patellar luxation past grade 2. Migo looks to be at grade 2 but I'm going to get this verified when he is one year. However, I did get on her waiting list for another pup and she's working with me in picking the best dog. I'm not in a rush though (which is good because the waitlist for next year is already soooo long). Migo and I still have a lot of training to do before I'm ready to add a new dog. 

I recently bought the Dr. Mercola joint support for dogs and I switched to Bonnie & Clyde fish oil from just krill oil. Hoping those serve him well!


----------



## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Last week we took the furkids to Tahoe. It was Scout's first time out of the house since May. He had so much fun going for walks. Truffles is so happy she has her playmate back. Yesterday I had to have surgery on my fractured wrist so now I'm in bed! :frown2:


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Feel better soon!!!


----------



## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

krandall said:


> Feel better soon!!!


Thank-you. We returned from Tahoe Sunday and I was fortunate to get an appt with a hand and wrist specialist Mon. He explained it was a complex fracture. Wed. he put plates and screws in my wrist to hold the bones in the correct position and release the nerve due to pressure. I'm now sitting in bed or on the sofa with my arm elevated on pillows. My hubby is learning to comb Truffles and blow my hair dry. &#128522; Unfortunately it is my dominant arm. Tomorrow the furkids get groomed. Thinking it might be best to give Truffles puppy cut.


----------



## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Karidyne, thanks for your post. You might want to get a second opinion about agility. The surgeon gave Shama the go-ahead even though she has two luxating patellas. She said it is important for dogs to stay active. Thanks for being specific about what meds you're giving to Migo.

Heather, I'm happy for Scout, relieved for you, and sympathetic to your husband. Maybe he'll be able to keep up with Truffles' beautiful coat?


----------



## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

ShamaMama said:


> Karidyne, thanks for your post. You might want to get a second opinion about agility. The surgeon gave Shama the go-ahead even though she has two luxating patellas. She said it is important for dogs to stay active. Thanks for being specific about what meds you're giving to Migo.
> 
> Heather, I'm happy for Scout, relieved for you, and sympathetic to your husband. Maybe he'll be able to keep up with Truffles' beautiful coat?


The furkids got groomed yesterday. Hubby got his lesson on dematting, brushing and combing. Guess we'll see how it goes for three weeks. We will know by then if Truffles will be getting a haircut. &#128577; Fortunate that Scout's coat is very short. I'm having trouble just brushing my teeth...


----------



## LoriJack (Aug 21, 2017)

Heather's said:


> Thank-you. We returned from Tahoe Sunday and I was fortunate to get an appt with a hand and wrist specialist Mon. He explained it was a complex fracture. Wed. he put plates and screws in my wrist to hold the bones in the correct position and release the nerve due to pressure. I'm now sitting in bed or on the sofa with my arm elevated on pillows. My hubby is learning to comb Truffles and blow my hair dry.  Unfortunately it is my dominant arm. Tomorrow the furkids get groomed. Thinking it might be best to give Truffles puppy cut.


Heather, A compound fracture involving your hand and wrist sounds very painful . I pray that you heal completely in a reasonable amount of time. I cannot imagine how frustrated you must feel having to rely on help with day to day things. Hopefully you will allow yourself to rest and heal -maybe listen to some audio books?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

LoriJack said:


> Heather, A compound fracture involving your hand and wrist sounds very painful . I pray that you heal completely in a reasonable amount of time. I cannot imagine how frustrated you must feel having to rely on help with day to day things. Hopefully you will allow yourself to rest and heal -maybe listen to some audio books?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


It's just so difficult to get comfortable and can't sleep. I feel claustrophobic with this heavy splint. Hopefully it will be changed to fiberglass Thursday. The audio books are a great idea. Now I can spend lot's of time with Scout and Truffles . &#128522;


----------



## LoriJack (Aug 21, 2017)

Heather's said:


> It's just so difficult to get comfortable and can't sleep. I feel claustrophobic with this heavy splint. Hopefully it will be changed to fiberglass Thursday. The audio books are a great idea. Now I can spend lot's of time with Scout and Truffles .


I am sure that they Love having you around to give them all of your attention 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## OhHenry (Sep 9, 2017)

This has been such an interesting thread and I'm taking many notes. I don't plan on having Henry do agility training but will definitely try to keep him active. I plan to ask at his next vet appointment in 3 weeks but you ladies are the experts on Havaneses: Should I be giving him supplements for his joints, wait to start, or not give him anything unless the vet identifies potential issues?

Heather, get well soon!


----------



## LoriJack (Aug 21, 2017)

OhHenry said:


> This has been such an interesting thread and I'm taking many notes. I don't plan on having Henry do agility training but will definitely try to keep him active. I plan to ask at his next vet appointment in 3 weeks but you ladies are the experts on Havaneses: Should I be giving him supplements for his joints, wait to start, or not give him anything unless the vet identifies potential issues?
> 
> Heather, get well soon!


I've been thinking the same thing!! Enjoying all the information and would like to eventually see what KC will be able to do, but have no interest in formal shows or entering competitions. I do love to watch these smart and adorable dogs!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

ShamaMama said:


> Karidyne, thanks for your post. You might want to get a second opinion about agility. The surgeon gave Shama the go-ahead even though she has two luxating patellas. She said it is important for dogs to stay active. Thanks for being specific about what meds you're giving to Migo.


Yeah, we keep Migo pretty active with walks, playtime and occasionally running around the lake (not forced running, just playful stuff). He has zoomies every morning and evening. I've spoken with three vets, two trainers and another breeder through the HCA. They all say that a grade 2, while not requiring surgery, is still serious enough to not risk injury. He has two luxating patellas as well. I got Migo to do agility, I definitely would if I could. But I'm finding that nose work is pretty satisfying. He's the smallest and youngest by far in our class and he's sort of the class clown. 

I also started making "golden paste" for him. Turmeric is a source of curcumin which is an anti-inflammatory antioxidant. It helps alleviate knee and joint pain and has other benefits (look it up). Unfortunately the turmeric in our spice rack contains very little curcumin and the liver actively tries to get rid of it so only a little makes it into the blood stream. However, piperine (freshly cracked black pepper) helps to make it bioavailable and adding fat enables the curcumin to survive past the liver. So I basically made golden paste and started giving 1/4 tsp to Migo every day.

The recipe is..
1 part turmeric powder 
in 4 parts clean water. 
Put on heat until it's a paste. 
Mix in freshly cracked pepper (1-2 tsp) 
and 1/2 part coconut oil. 
Cool and store in fridge.

Apparently it can make urine smell more, but I don't smell Migo's pee so I haven't noticed. Just an FYI if you decide to use it.


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I don't advise publishing recipes online because every dog is different and when it comes to supplementing a dog''s diet ,one should always consult with your vet or nutritionist. Herbs although natural can cause many problems. as mentioned in the article

from Catherine Lane (nutritionalist) ..."I can't over emphasize the importance of having a proper diagnosis made by a veterinarian before attempting to treat with herbs and supplements."

"By far and away the most popular herb used commercially for arthritis in animals is Turmeric, Curcuma longa. Many vets advise a Curcumin extract, while people researching on their own seem to prefer "Golden Paste" - a heated mixture of whole powdered turmeric with coconut oil and black pepper. Popular joint formulas will often include turmeric, boswellia and Devil's claw, and some will include yucca(less popular than it used to be) but the emphasis seems to be on reducing inflammation. While this is of course important, my feeling is we need to address the whole dog or cat via a variety of herbs with a range of actions. For me, the first step towards reducing inflammation is dietary (as detailed above) and then, a selection of herbal options along with alteratives, anti-spasmodics, relaxing nervines and cardiovascular support. Selection and dosing will as always depend on the individual case. Here are some herbs I rely on regularly with my arthritic clients."

This is from https://www.thepossiblecanine.com/herbal-support-for-arthritis


----------



## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

karidyne said:


> Yeah, we keep Migo pretty active with walks, playtime and occasionally running around the lake (not forced running, just playful stuff). He has zoomies every morning and evening. I've spoken with three vets, two trainers and another breeder through the HCA. They all say that a grade 2, while not requiring surgery, is still serious enough to not risk injury. He has two luxating patellas as well. I got Migo to do agility, I definitely would if I could. But I'm finding that nose work is pretty satisfying. He's the smallest and youngest by far in our class and he's sort of the class clown.
> 
> I also started making "golden paste" for him. Turmeric is a source of curcumin which is an anti-inflammatory antioxidant. It helps alleviate knee and joint pain and has other benefits (look it up). Unfortunately the turmeric in our spice rack contains very little curcumin and the liver actively tries to get rid of it so only a little makes it into the blood stream. However, piperine (freshly cracked black pepper) helps to make it bioavailable and adding fat enables the curcumin to survive past the liver. So I basically made golden paste and started giving 1/4 tsp to Migo every day.
> 
> ...


Scout had only a slight luxation and both cruciate ligaments ruptured suddenly. He has always been very active running and jumping. I thought going to the park daily with my husband and playing with other dogs may have caused the problem. The orthopedic surgeon said it didn't and dog's need to play. Hubby said he knew it wasn't his fault. &#128530; We're into the sixth month and Halloween is his last appt. He's activity level is back to normal, although he's not supposed to run for another month. It's a challenge to watch him every minute. I had planned to take him to water therapy, but instead it looks like I'm the one that will be going! &#128577;


----------



## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Hang in there, Heather!


----------



## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

Well after doing a little more research it looks like turmeric is high in oxalates. I'm surprised that Dr. Jean Dodds is recommending this in her book since she specifically mentions avoiding high oxalate foods. Because of that I didn't think to check for it.


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I asked Sabine about this. Here's her reply ... "While fresh turmeric and the dried powder are high in oxalate, you can still use standardized curcumin extract for beneficial effect if a dog is prone to forming oxalate stones. It contains very little, considering the amount needed. 
Yep - just like any other "supplement of the moment" it's not suitable for all dogs. Not just due to the oxalate content, but also the high fat content, and the fact that turmeric is a GI irritant to some individuals."


----------



## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

davetgabby said:


> I asked Sabine about this. Here's her reply ... "While fresh turmeric and the dried powder are high in oxalate, you can still use standardized curcumin extract for beneficial effect if a dog is prone to forming oxalate stones. It contains very little, considering the amount needed.
> Yep - just like any other "supplement of the moment" it's not suitable for all dogs. Not just due to the oxalate content, but also the high fat content, and the fact that turmeric is a GI irritant to some individuals."


Thanks for the info. What did she say are the benefits of curcumin?

It is actually used for IBS (it's an anti-inflammatory), so it is interesting that it can be a GI irritant. I know that it can cause nausea in dogs, especially small dogs, if you give them too much. What does she mean by fat content? Does she mean the fat that people add to make it more effective? Coconut oil is a common recommendation (as long as you are not disturbing the omega 6 - omega 3 ratio) so I imagine that if you limit fats elsewhere in the diet that the coconut oil part of turmeric is not a big deal.


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

__
https://121529797021%2Fcurcumin-turmeric-health%23.Wdei2WhSzIV


----------



## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Thanks for that info Dave! 
I don't give Sophie turmeric but I do take it myself. Does wonders for aches and pains.


----------

