# How to deal with the long wait lists?



## morriscsps

From another thread, Tom King said he had over 60 people on his wait list. I suspect that other top breeders are the same. How should I approach these long lists? There are a couple of breeders who I am familiar with and would love a puppy from. 

When you get added to a huge list, are breeders still expected the nonrefundable deposit fee? Or are they putting you on the list and ask for the fee when you get closer to the top? I can see putting down a deposit if I am 10-15th in line but not 61st.

What have you guys been experiencing?


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## EvaE1izabeth

I made the decision to wait rather than be put on a long list last spring. I was already planning for a puppy in 2020 when covid began. At the time I assumed the bulk of puppy fever would pass by this fall, and a lot of people would drop off lists, but that doesn’t seem to the the case. When I decided to wait, I thought I’d try to get on a list at the end of this year or early next, for a puppy sometimes in 2021. Some of the lists are so long, it sounds like it could be a 2 year wait! I don’t feel a time urgency to bring home a puppy right away because I have a 3 year old Havanese, but now that I’ve had a dog, a year or more seems like an unbelievably long time to go without one. 

I hope other will offer their insight on this, particularly what we might see over the next year or so. I also worry that there will be more irresponsible breeders in response to the increased demand and it will be harder to filter them out.


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## morriscsps

We thought that we would have 5 or 6 years before we needed to go puppy hunting again. :frown2:


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## Faithb

Some of the breeders wanted a deposit in order to be added to the wait list while others just took my information and told me they would contact me when they had an available puppy. As Tom said, the lists change as people drop off, find puppies elsewhere, etc. I lost my dog in June and I can understand how hard it is to be without puppy snuggles. I hope you are able to find your new puppy soon.


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## Tere

Many people will drop from the wait list, finding puppies elsewhere or a change in circumstance. I would try to touch base with my top picks and let them know how interested you are.
I called 6 breeders on Friday(Bichon Frise) and left 6 messages. It is Monday night and not one has called back.


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## krandall

morriscsps said:


> From another thread, Tom King said he had over 60 people on his wait list. I suspect that other top breeders are the same. How should I approach these long lists? There are a couple of breeders who I am familiar with and would love a puppy from.
> 
> When you get added to a huge list, are breeders still expected the nonrefundable deposit fee? Or are they putting you on the list and ask for the fee when you get closer to the top? I can see putting down a deposit if I am 10-15th in line but not 61st.
> 
> What have you guys been experiencing?


Honestly? I would not work with a breeder who expected a non-refundable deposit fee before they were able to tell me, FOR SURE, that they had a puppy for me. If I back out after THAT point, it's on me. Up until then, there is absolutely NO reason for them to keep the money. Especially now, when (if they are a GOOD breeder) they have people lining up for puppies. They will have NO problem placing that puppy. Non-refundable deposits are double-dipping, MO.


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## krandall

Faithb said:


> Some of the breeders wanted a deposit in order to be added to the wait list while others just took my information and told me they would contact me when they had an available puppy. As Tom said, the lists change as people drop off, find puppies elsewhere, etc. I lost my dog in June and I can understand how hard it is to be without puppy snuggles. I hope you are able to find your new puppy soon.


I think, if you are serious about getting a puppy, it is a mistake not to get on a list if you can, with a breeder you'd really like to get a puppy from. Things change. Sometimes fast. And it is the person who is in the right place at the right time that gets the puppy.


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## Vartina Ancrum

I was not asked to put any money down for a deposit until the litter was born. I was on the waitlist but wasn't asked to pay money until after I was contacted after the puppies were born.


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## Tom King

One reason our list is so long, is that we don't ask for any deposit until we know we have a puppy for you, after the puppies are born. Then Pam goes down the list, starting with the date the inquiry was received, unless they have had one of our puppies before.

We have people that bought puppies from us, maybe even 20 years ago, and are old friends. We know they will be great homes, and will be little trouble for us. 

A lot of times, people will have already found a puppy somewhere else, or had something come up in their lives that makes it a bad time to start raising a puppy. Sometimes there are none of these (very rarely), and most of the time they drop off in numbers. 

It's very rare for someone who has been on our list, and is not now a prospect to get one from us, that will notify us. This can take a lot of time, and someone that was 10, or 12 on the list may get moved to the top because of people that have dropped off.

With the numbers on the list now, it's hard to see where it will go.

Pam tries to contact people on the list as soon as things calm down after the puppies are born. Even so, giving people a couple of days to make a decision, if six people have dropped off the list, you can see where that puts us a week or so behind. Some people have dropped off because they weren't notified soon enough to suit them after the puppies are born.

There is a lot of ebb, and flow to it, and not as simple as it may seem on the surface.

Once we know we will have a puppy for you, even not knowing which one because we don't know who they are until six, or eight weeks, we ask for a deposit. We used to not even ask for a deposit, but you would probably be surprised at how many people played the part until it was time to come get the puppy, and then we would have to scramble around, and find a new home for it.

I'm not even sure how many states allow any kind of non-refundable deposit. I know in a lot of states, it's not legal on anything.


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## ShamaMama

Pam, I wish you could come over and hang out with Shama until you get your new puppy. I am thinking of you!


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## krandall

Vartina Ancrum said:


> I was not asked to put any money down for a deposit until the litter was born. I was on the waitlist but wasn't asked to pay money until after I was contacted after the puppies were born.


That is a reasonable request. at that point, you are taking a place that could go to someone else. But Not for some puppy in some litter a breeder MIGHT have in 6 or 8 months...


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## EvaE1izabeth

morriscsps said:


> We thought that we would have 5 or 6 years before we needed to go puppy hunting again. :frown2:


I'm getting the impression that if you're proactive, when you're ready, it will work out and not be quite so long.

The information shared helps me feel better about it. I was starting to worry that if I waited to get on a list, they would just continue to grow. But some things have changed with DS and I want to be sure we don't bring home a puppy when our schedule isn't predictable, especially when it's already difficult to socialize puppies right now.

I do believe these things tend to fall into place, I just have a tendency to second guess. I have a feeling the right puppy will find his way to you.


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## krandall

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I'm getting the impression that if you're proactive, when you're ready, it will work out and not be quite so long.
> 
> The information shared helps me feel better about it. I was starting to worry that if I waited to get on a list, they would just continue to grow. But some things have changed with DS and I want to be sure we don't bring home a puppy when our schedule isn't predictable, especially when it's already difficult to socialize puppies right now.
> 
> I do believe these things tend to fall into place, I just have a tendency to second guess. I have a feeling the right puppy will find his way to you.


And I think the socializing thing is working out better than people first thought it would. Especially now that we are out of TIGHT lock-down mode. I think there are LOTS of EXCELLENT ways to "socialize" your puppy without them being mauled by every Tom, Dick, and Harry. You just need to be thoughtful about it. Even puppy classes are going on at many/most training schools, with masks and social distancing for the humans.


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## morriscsps

I think we are going to try to add our names to some of the waiting lists. There are a few local breeders and a couple that are far away but why not try. :grin2:


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## Faithb

Good idea Pam! I hope you find your new puppy soon.


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## krandall

I'd like to point out that "Mama Mills", who posted that they will be getting their puppy in Dec., is another person who came to the forum, I think at the beginning of the summer, when the waiting lists already seemed impossibly long. But she was smart. She talked to breeders, Got on at least one list... Hopefully she'll see this and respond, but if not, go ask her on her thread, and then, "things happened"... people moved around on lists, and here she will be getting her puppy in just a couple of months!!! So don't give up hope! There is a breeder out there for you, and your puppy may not be born YET, but he will be before TOO long!!!


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## Melissa Woods

Yeah we personally got Roxie because we got Oliver from her and we keep in touch all the time. I send her pics and updates, etc. So there's a big aspect to socializing with people. Also, there were circumstances that made her preferring to give the last litter to people she knew (she had to move out of state unexpectedly when the puppies were relatively young).


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## Mama Mills

krandall said:


> I'd like to point out that "Mama Mills", who posted that they will be getting their puppy in Dec., is another person who came to the forum, I think at the beginning of the summer, when the waiting lists already seemed impossibly long. But she was smart. She talked to breeders, Got on at least one list... Hopefully she'll see this and respond, but if not, go ask her on her thread, and then, "things happened"... people moved around on lists, and here she will be getting her puppy in just a couple of months!!! So don't give up hope! There is a breeder out there for you, and your puppy may not be born YET, but he will be before TOO long!!!


YES!! We weren't overly eager but I did secretly hope we would have a puppy by Christmas. I spent early summer researching breeds heavily and once I discovered havanese I contacted 4 breeders here in northern Colorado. Once I spoke to the breeder we are going through I knew I would be willing to wait for one of her puppies because her and I had a connection. I sent a deposit mid July and we found out two weeks ago we will bring a puppy home in early December!! I know the uncertainty and waiting is difficult but I would encourage you to explore your options and trust your instinct when you feel you've found the right breeder. As many others have said, it may not take nearly as long as you suspect &#129310;&#127996;


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## Wulfin

Exactly this.  It happened twice for me (I should have bought a lotto ticket).

My breeder has a long wait list as well, but we were lucky with our timing in meeting her when Denver’s mom was pregnant. I drove out to an agility trial to meet some of her dogs (the moms owner competes, so I watched him run with his other 2 havs), and my breeder came and one of her dogs was plunked in my lap and that was it. LOL. As I was looking for an agility dog and both parents are titled in agility, the fit was perfect. 

Then when I decided to get a second dog, I was expecting to wait a year (I didn’t really want under the age of 12 months, but I knew her list was long). Instead she approached me a month later to discuss co-owning as this was her dream breeding and wanted to keep the sire’s mini-me in her program but didn’t want to have another male around (she was already keeping a female from this litter). Most of this breeding was to go to other breeders for the genetics, but she really wanted to keep Keeper for herself (the name was not by chance..lol). So now I have 2 much closer in age than expected. Lol.

It can happen.


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## Tom King

Just for general information on wait lists, Pam started contacting people on ours today. We're expecting puppies in 3-1/2 weeks. Out of around 1/3 of our list (all Pam is contacting to start with), starting with the oldest ones, about 2/3's responded to her email. Of those, a little fewer than 1/2 were excited, and ready for a puppy, a few said the timing was not right, but wanted to stay on the list, and the others had already found a puppy somewhere else. We never know what happens to the 1/3 that we never hear back from.

So, maybe that makes a long list a little less daunting. It always changes. So as long as our list is, people who joined it last April, May, and maybe even later are now up to the top.


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## morriscsps

giggle... I did babble at Pam and beg to be put on your list. I realize that it is probably at minimum a year wait. Hopeful dreaming...


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## Mando's Mommy

This thread gives me hope. :smile2:


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## ShamaMama

Wulfin said:


> Exactly this.  It happened twice for me (I should have bought a lotto ticket).
> 
> My breeder has a long wait list as well, but we were lucky with our timing in meeting her when Denver's mom was pregnant. I drove out to an agility trial to meet some of her dogs (the moms owner competes, so I watched him run with his other 2 havs), and my breeder came and one of her dogs was plunked in my lap and that was it. LOL. As I was looking for an agility dog and both parents are titled in agility, the fit was perfect.
> 
> Then when I decided to get a second dog, I was expecting to wait a year (I didn't really want under the age of 12 months, but I knew her list was long). Instead she approached me a month later to discuss co-owning as this was her dream breeding and wanted to keep the sire's mini-me in her program but didn't want to have another male around (she was already keeping a female from this litter). Most of this breeding was to go to other breeders for the genetics, but she really wanted to keep Keeper for herself (the name was not by chance..lol). So now I have 2 much closer in age than expected. Lol.
> 
> It can happen.


I love this story ... and the names of your dogs! It was fun getting to "see" you at the virtual holiday party!


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## lindam

I am also looking to reach out to a breeder and am hoping someone can explain the process. Once the puppies are born and you are contacted, are you able to meet the pups first and pick one? Is it first cone, first serve for the litter? 
And sorry if this is a dumb question but does every litter (all dog breeds) have a runt?


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## krandall

lindam said:


> I am also looking to reach out to a breeder and am hoping someone can explain the process. Once the puppies are born and you are contacted, are you able to meet the pups first and pick one? Is it first come, first serve for the litter?
> And sorry if this is a dumb question but does every litter (all dog breeds) have a runt?


Good breeders normally will have talked to each prospective family quite a bit, and while they will take your wishes in terms of gender into consideration as much as possible, and SOMETIMES color if they CAN, if they are a GOOD breeder, their biggest concern is going to be matching the puppy with the best personality for your family with you. So you PROBABLY won't have a lot of choice. Your choice is very likely to be "this puppy or we don't have the right puppy for you in this litter". SOMETIMES there is some wiggle room, but not always.

Particularly now, during Covid, it is highly variable how much time, if any, you will be able to spend with your puppy, in person, before you take him or her home. It's too bad, but it is understandable that breeders do not want large numbers of people in and out of their homes... for your sake AND theirs!

Be VERY careful of a breeder who lets you choose a puppy from pictures. This is NOT a breeder who is doing due diligence for her puppies OR her puppy buyers!

As far as "first picks" are concerned, the breeder gets "first pick" for her breeding program if she decides to keep one, and sometimes the owner of the stud dog (if he is owned by someone else) gets second pick. Sometimes a decision is made that certain puppies need to go to show homes, and those will be placed next. Other breeders place all or most of the puppies that they do not keep for their own breeding program in pet homes. There is NOTHING wrong with EITHER of these practices... it depends on the goals of the breeder for that particular litter.

No, it is rather unusual for a litter to have a "runt" in a litter when both parents have been properly health tested, and cared for prior to and during pregnancy. It can happen, but it is not at all common. There is often a size range among the puppies, just as there is among siblings in a human family, and that is fine. A petite girl who has been eating well, gaining weight on track and plays vigorously would not be considered a "runt" even if she is a bit smaller than her littermates. A"runt" would be an unthrifty puppy that has had trouble from the beginning. The breeder may have had a hard time getting that puppy to nurse and had to supplement feed it. Even after those first days, the puppy doesn't catch up with its siblings developmentally. It is NOT just a matter of size. A good breeder will probably want to hold a puppy like that back longer than the rest of the litter, giving it more time to mature and to have it thoroughly checked out physically, especially its heart and liver, before placing it with a family.

If you are offered a puppy that is TRULY a "runt" as opposed to simply a petite puppy, I would be very, VERY careful that you think that through carefully. It is POSSIBLE that the puppy will catch up and be fine, but it is also possible that there is an underlying condition causing that puppy to struggle. Be careful.


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## lindam

Thank you, krandall, as always for your insight I've been taking A LOT of notes and this is extremely helpful. So glad to find this forum and meet you and everyone here. Thanks again!


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## Tom King

There is an ebb, and flow to wait lists. Sometimes every one, as Pam goes down the list, is ready for one. Other times, a lot will have dropped off for various reasons, or the timing is not good. What we really need is a Wait List Ready, and a Not Ready Yet list.

Also, even when we say we don't place by color, when a person comes up on the list, they will have decided they only want one color choice. There's nothing simple to it.

It often takes a few weeks to get sorted out exactly who is getting a puppy, and that's before they know which puppy. Want a particular puppy when looking at few week old pictures-sorry, that's not going to work.


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## Janet

Whoa, I looked at the Starborn website and it seems that Tom and Pam have their hands full with more than 20 puppies!!! 
:surprise:
Gorgeous puppies, I might add.
But that should put a dent in the Waiting Lists!

Janet


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## krandall

Janet said:


> Whoa, I looked at the Starborn website and it seems that Tom and Pam have their hands full with more than 20 puppies!!!
> :surprise:
> Gorgeous puppies, I might add.
> But that should put a dent in the Waiting Lists!
> 
> Janet


One of the problems with having several bitches is that they tend to be like girls in the same dorm room... They all cycle together! So it's breed them all at once or not breed ANY of them for at least another 6 months. They do not nicely space them out for you! LOL!


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## LeleRF

Thanks for putting this question out there! I am quite green to all this and don’t want to appear so! Appreciate it!


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## krandall

LeleRF said:


> Thanks for putting this question out there! I am quite green to all this and don't want to appear so! Appreciate it!


Do NOT worry about being "green"! We ALL started there!!!


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## lindam

LeleRF said:


> Thanks for putting this question out there! I am quite green to all this and don't want to appear so! Appreciate it!


Lele, not sure if you saw this link but this was pretty helpful when I started out. https://www.havaneseforum.com/8-puppy-area/16008-things-look-reputable-breeder.html#/topics/16008

I started researching this breed about 6 months ago and fell in love. At first I thought I could find one to adopt but since this is a special breed, its extremely rare. I found out thru talking to people that puppy mills can disguise themselves as shelters online and are asking over $1000 adoption fee for a Havanese! That's when I decided to do my homework on good quality breeders who absolutely care about the health and wellbeing of their pup while raising them AND after they go to their forever homes.

I would say that if you definitely know this is the dog for you, like others said, do your research and get on a couple wait lists. There were periods in the beginning that were a little depressing for me to be honest where I wondered why aren't breeders replying back to me.. why didn't I sign up sooner.. I should've signed up sooner! etc.

I'm on a wait list currently and not sure what # I am on the list (honestly a little scared to ask) but know the time will come where I will realize it was worth the wait for my little one. Until then I watch youtube puppy videos or try to live vicariously thru some of the wonderful members here. &#128515; Good luck!


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## LeleRF

lindam said:


> Lele, not sure if you saw this link but this was pretty helpful when I started out. https://www.havaneseforum.com/8-puppy-area/16008-things-look-reputable-breeder.html#/topics/16008
> 
> I started researching this breed about 6 months ago and fell in love. At first I thought I could find one to adopt but since this is a special breed, its extremely rare. I found out thru talking to people that puppy mills can disguise themselves as shelters online and are asking over $1000 adoption fee for a Havanese! That's when I decided to do my homework on good quality breeders who absolutely care about the health and wellbeing of their pup while raising them AND after they go to their forever homes.
> 
> I would say that if you definitely know this is the dog for you, like others said, do your research and get on a couple wait lists. There were periods in the beginning that were a little depressing for me to be honest where I wondered why aren't breeders replying back to me.. why didn't I sign up sooner.. I should've signed up sooner! etc.
> 
> I'm on a wait list currently and not sure what # I am on the list (honestly a little scared to ask) but know the time will come where I will realize it was worth the wait for my little one. Until then I watch youtube puppy videos or try to live vicariously thru some of the wonderful members here. &#128515; Good luck!


Thanks for the encouragement, great tips and also that link, Lindam! I had not seen that! So much great info in here, I'm sure I haven't even scratched the surface. Everyone is so wonderful, it's like a family, and it gives me the warm & fuzzies. :grouphug: I am like obsessed now that we've decided on the breed. I am getting heck from my family for being on my iPad too much lately, haha, especially since I'm usually the one that's the internet police. :laugh2: I'm a night owl so I've been sneaking on very late. :wink:


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## ShamaMama

That really is a great thread. Here's the link again for anyone's future reference: Things to Look for in a Reputable Breeder.


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## lindam

LeleRF said:


> lindam said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lele, not sure if you saw this link but this was pretty helpful when I started out. https://www.havaneseforum.com/8-puppy-area/16008-things-look-reputable-breeder.html#/topics/16008
> 
> I started researching this breed about 6 months ago and fell in love. At first I thought I could find one to adopt but since this is a special breed, its extremely rare. I found out thru talking to people that puppy mills can disguise themselves as shelters online and are asking over $1000 adoption fee for a Havanese! That's when I decided to do my homework on good quality breeders who absolutely care about the health and wellbeing of their pup while raising them AND after they go to their forever homes.
> 
> I would say that if you definitely know this is the dog for you, like others said, do your research and get on a couple wait lists. There were periods in the beginning that were a little depressing for me to be honest where I wondered why aren't breeders replying back to me.. why didn't I sign up sooner.. I should've signed up sooner! etc.
> 
> I'm on a wait list currently and not sure what # I am on the list (honestly a little scared to ask) but know the time will come where I will realize it was worth the wait for my little one. Until then I watch youtube puppy videos or try to live vicariously thru some of the wonderful members here. &#128515; Good luck!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the encouragement, great tips and also that link, Lindam! I had not seen that! So much great info in here, I'm sure I haven't even scratched the surface. Everyone is so wonderful, it's like a family, and it gives me the warm & fuzzies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am like obsessed now that we've decided on the breed. I am getting heck from my family for being on my iPad too much lately, haha, especially since I'm usually the one that's the internet police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a night owl so I've been sneaking on very late.
Click to expand...

OMG everyone is so wonderful here. I actually cringe at some of the dumb questions I've asked in this forum (and I'll likely have more) but you know what? ALL the responses I got were so helpful, never condescending, and always informative. A great group of people here!

I'm on a wait list too so can't wait until we all get our new babies and we post our own puppy pics and videos. &#128525; Good luck in your search!


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## 31818

lindam said:


> OMG everyone is so wonderful here. I actually cringe at some of the dumb questions I've asked in this forum (and I'll likely have more) but you know what? ALL the responses I got were so helpful, never condescending, and always informative. A great group of people here!
> 
> I'm on a wait list too so can't wait until we all get our new babies and we post our own puppy pics and videos. &#128525; Good luck in your search!


Well, I see we have another Havaholic here. It only gets worse once you have your furbaby! Havanese are not dogs, they become valued family members, adding to your quality of life! :grin2:

Ricky's Popi


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