# At the point of crying



## Val (Aug 4, 2017)

Has anyone else been through this and come out the other end. Rollo is 9 and a half months now and I have been doing positive training with him for a long time. He is completely out of control, and no amount of training/treats seem to work. I have been told, by trainer, that if he starts to pull (which he does like a steam train) when we go for a walk, to just stop until the lead slackens - hold a treat next to my leg and get his attention "look Rollo". Ha - I may as well tell him to fly to the moon. He is a nightmare on walks and will almost choke himself to death if he sees another dog, pulling to such an extent that he is up on two legs. (Yes, I have a whole crate of different harnesses which are labelled 'no pull'). I daren't take him off the lead. I do training with him 3-4 times a day with this clicker and it works indoors, outside it literally all goes out of the window. 

I got him when he was 14 weeks old and did wonder about his socialisation, but being my first dog was not aware of how crucial this was. I thought he was house reared as that was where we saw him in a pen, but later learned that he was in fact kennel reared. He is completely hyper most of the time - have only just got him to sleep through the night in a crate.

Sorry for the rant, but I am feeling utterly exhausted by him to the point of crying when I come back from a walk, he never stops or sleeps during the day. He has only ever been left on his own twice when I had to take husband to hospital (he has been/is very ill). I think what I want is some reassurance that one day it will all end and he will be an obedient and lovely companion.

Thanks again for the opportunity to rant.

Val


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Get someone to help you that can quickly teach any dog to walk on a leash. It's too hard to describe in words, and expect the person reading to be able to do it.


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## Val (Aug 4, 2017)

I have a private trainer come to the house now as Rollo was too distracted by other dogs in his training class. We have had two sessions, which comprised of 'look', 'sit'(which he could already do) 'touch' to make him come to your hand, and lie which he still cannot do - he did for the trainer but when I try he just looks confused and wanders around. We aren't even looking at getting him outside until the end of February - sigh.

Positives are that he is a very happy bouncy boy, no aggression whatsoever - unless he sees a fox in the garden which sends him wild. However, he has the concentration span of a gnat. I am beginning to think he had brain cells bred out of him. Some of the problem is that he isn't very food orientated. A few treats fine - and I use very high quality treats, chicken, lamb, beef, dried ox liver, cheese, but he gets bored with them really quickly. He only nibbles at food and has never really been interested, which makes training that bit harder.

Sorry, but always feel a bit desperate when I come back from walking him 

Val


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

He's still a puppy. Worse, he is an adolescent puppy. Unfortunately, dog training (and dog-learning) isn't linear. He will be able to do what he is able to do when he's ready. If you've got good, reliable training help, just take a deep breath and stay with the program. Fo now, work on your loose leash walking in a quiet, not over-stimulating situation. Go for your street walks without him. It' really bad for him not only from a training perspective but in terms of his health, to be pulling on his neck like that. 

Some dogs a "food oriented" from birth. Others need to be taught that the food is a reward over time, with consistent training. But in a case like you are describing, he's so overstimulated that he can't even respond to the treat as a lure, let alone recognize it as a reward. If the behaviors you want are not rock solid in a quiet, non-stimulating environment (which COULD be in the bathroom with you!!! LOL!) you don't have a prayer of having him respond appropriately on the street. Then, when you KNOW he knows the behaviors in a quiet setting, start SLOWLY generalizing, a small step at a time. That might be that you do it in the kitchen next, then every room in the house, then in various rooms in the house with another person present, then in the back yard alone, then with a person present... 

We have a saying at our training school. If things aren't going well, ask your self, "Are you going to far or too fast? Are you asking too much, too soon?" ...shortened to TFTFTMTS.  If the dog doesn't do what you want, they usually CAN'T do what you want under those conditions at that time. And it's up to you to back it up until to reach the point where they CAN, then go forward more slowly.


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## Val (Aug 4, 2017)

I now use a car harness when walking him, only thing that won't choke, unfortunately it allows him to pull to the extent that he is scrabbling on the ground or even up on his two hind legs when he sees another dog. Oh well, I will keep on keeping on. He is being neutered tomorrow so at least one day of calm. He has been humping legs a lot lately, and while I try to distract him it doesn't always work - I am not sure though whether it is hormonal or just excitement and the way he expresses it.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Shama heels perfectly at obedience class, but she still pulls on the rare occasion that I take her for a walk. She gets her exercise running free in the fenced-in back yard and in the house and at agility class. I keep meaning to work more at loose leash walking outside in public, but it hasn't happened yet. I think Tom had good advice for you. I would suggest continuing to take classes with Rollo as long as you can afford it and also watch training videos like kikopup.


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## Val (Aug 4, 2017)

Thank you for the video  I sort of try to do this, but have always thought he needs his long walk to tire him out - we go 3-4 miles a day. We have a big garden that he can run around and which we play in so perhaps I will do little bits of walking in the garden and round the house and forget our outings for a while. I will concentrate on trying to tire him out mentally instead.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Val said:


> Thank you for the video  I sort of try to do this, but have always thought he needs his long walk to tire him out - we go 3-4 miles a day. We have a big garden that he can run around and which we play in so perhaps I will do little bits of walking in the garden and round the house and forget our outings for a while. I will concentrate on trying to tire him out mentally instead.


A lot of this is over-excitement and lack of attention is just plain being a "teenager". It will get better.


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## Val (Aug 4, 2017)

Thank you all so much for the encouragement and help. I love him to bits, he is so cute, but is wearing me out at the moment. To know that it will get better really helps.

Thank you

Val


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## abi38 (Mar 23, 2017)

Have you try a halter style lead? It worked wonders on my dad's mini schnauzer. He doesn't like having it on, and would rub his face with his arm periodically, but it cut his pulling down almost immediately. It is extremely hard for a dog to pull when his nose is getting turned backward. I tried gender harness, the chest restrictive kind and didn't have luck with that.

I had problem with Zelda pulling until she was over a year old. Not that she pulls super hard (no pulling on 2 legs or scrapping of ground), but hard enough to bother me. Training with treats doesn't work at all with her, because she's so focus on walking/pulling/everything else to even bother to be interested in a treat.

The training that worked for me was turning around whenever she's not paying attention and pull forward. I pop the leash real quick (not yanking her around, more like a reminder of "Hey I am here" of pop and let go). If they actually follow on a turn not needing a reminder then praise praise praise. All I did was go back and forth changing direction erratically for a while, and it doesn't take long for them to realize they need to pay attention to where this crazy human is going. But it actually worked. And yes it even worked with my dad's mini schnauzer which does that pull on 2 legs and scraping walk.


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## Val (Aug 4, 2017)

Thank you abi38- do you mean something like the Gentle Leader? I have thought about trying one of those, but not sure how he would take to it.

Glad to know that Rollo isn't the only one who zones out when on walks - getting him to notice a treat is a task in itself. Will try the turning round. Have done that before without success but perhaps I was doing it wrong. Think I need to forget the longer walks for a while and concentrate on walking him up and down just outside the house.

Oh well, just off to the vets for his little operation, so he won't feeling like doing much for a couple of days I suppose.

Val


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

When you feed him, do you leave food down, or put it down for a short while, and take it up?


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## abi38 (Mar 23, 2017)

Yes the Gentle Leader is one of the brand. It does take the dog some getting used to compared to normal collar/harness. But it works very well (as long as you put it on correctly). The DVD that it comes with has a lot of tips about how to acclimate the dog to it.


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## Val (Aug 4, 2017)

Tom King said:


> When you feed him, do you leave food down, or put it down for a short while, and take it up?


Yes, I usually leave food down as he just nibbles. Not sure if this is the right thing to do though.

Back from vets after neutering last night and he is a bit hyper (don't let him jump - ha). They gave me some cans of the horrible Royal Canin Gastro Intestinal which they said he should be fed initially, I hate the ingredients in this stuff and it is so gloopy but he woofs it down, unlike his kibble. Oh well, will feed it to him for the three recommended days then back to his good quality kibble and a bit of chicken to top it with.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

*jumping/ running*



Val said:


> Back from vets after neutering last night and he is a bit hyper (don't let him jump - ha).


Oh man, I know that feeling. Perry is currently on "extreme restriction" (aka crate rest) because of a partially torn ACL (the vet thinks it will heal/ scar enough to not need surgery - though this is the second time it's torn so she said if it does it again she'd want to operate), which means no running, no jumping. he doesn't spend a lot of time out of his crate, and when he is he's tethered to me on his leash - and of course on leash to go out to potty in the yard. But I have been very unsuccessful at keeping him from jumping around on his back feet (dancing) and he is especially skilled at running (in circles) even when the leash is kept extremely short!

He's so patient in his crate, but I feel really horrible because he doesn't know why he's in there. He's a rescue so probably spent too much time in a cage as a baby and now he's back in it without any idea why. Another month to go! Worse though is this is the 2nd round of crate rest (the last was 3 months for the 1st tear) - so he will have spent 5 months of his time with me in a crate before he even turns 2 (not counting how much he spent before I got him at 8 months old). That's a lot of his first two years in a crate.


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## Okwdvc (Jul 22, 2017)

My suggestion: Find a different trainer; one who is getting results. Trust me, we made that mistake and regret it. In our case, it was with another dog that isn't a Havanese. We tried multiple trainers, including a private trainer who came to our house. Nothing seemed to work and we kind of gave up. That was a huge mistake. We needed to find the right trainer for her stubborn personality. 

We have a great trainer working with our Havanese right now. In the puppy training class there was a dog who reminded us of our other dog so much; stubborn and skittish. Watching this trainer work with that dog made us realize that we just hadn't found the right person for her all those years ago. Even though she is 8 now, we are using some of the techniques we saw him use with the "problem dog" in class and they are working! Don't give up!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Okwdvc said:


> My suggestion: Find a different trainer; one who is getting results. Trust me, we made that mistake and regret it. In our case, it was with another dog that isn't a Havanese. We tried multiple trainers, including a private trainer who came to our house. Nothing seemed to work and we kind of gave up. That was a huge mistake. We needed to find the right trainer for her stubborn personality.
> 
> We have a great trainer working with our Havanese right now. In the puppy training class there was a dog who reminded us of our other dog so much; stubborn and skittish. Watching this trainer work with that dog made us realize that we just hadn't found the right person for her all those years ago. Even though she is 8 now, we are using some of the techniques we saw him use with the "problem dog" in class and they are working! Don't give up!


Be VERY careful of any trainer who will categorize a dog as "stubborn". Dogs do what works. And most of the time they want to please us... assuming we have a good relationship with them. When they DON'T do what we ask, it is much more likely that they are no capable of doing what they are being asked. Even if you think they "know" how to do (whatever) They may be able to do the behavior in a certain place, under certain circumstances, when they are in a certain emotional state. Ask them to do the same thing a strange place, or when they are a TINY bit nervous, or just over excited, and they truly CAN'T. Dogs are very poor at generalizing behaviors.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Leaving food down is the most surefire way to create a picky eater. A picky eater won't be food motivated.


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## Val (Aug 4, 2017)

Thank you all for your input. Sorry I haven't replied before, husband has undergone some heart surgery - feeling much better now and we are all sighing with relief  

However, 5 days after his neutering Rollo is becoming more and more withdrawn and his behaviour is just weird. 

Day 1 I almost had to tie him down, he had a mad phase of running around and trying to jump over on on to everything and ate everything put in front of him immediately. Day 2 - refused to eat and developed diarrhoea with blood in it, wouldn't get up or do anything just wanted to sleep. I took him back to the vet who said he had no temperature and no pain on palpation, his wound clean and not infected. She gave me some Canikur Pro for his stomach. I started feeding just chicken and rice twice a day with the Canikur Pro mixed in.

We are now at Day 5, he refuses to go into the kitchen to eat and when I take him in just runs and sits on the stairs. Now nothing has ever happened to him in the kitchen, in fact just the reverse, it's the place he gets odd yummy things when I am preparing/serving food like roast lamb or chicken. He usually just stands next to me there with pleading eyes. Now he won't go in. I have been feeding him in his basket, the only place he will take food. Otherwise he just sits on our settee not wanting to move, sleeps most of the time and shows no interest in anything. He will also not drink so I have been feeding him ice cubes which he will take and making the chicken and rice quite wet.

Has anyone else here had a dog neutered and had any kind on strange persistent behaviour? Will it pass? He doesn't have a cone to upset him, but I have a couple of surgical suits for him which are much more comfortable.

Thanks again for your input.

Val - owner of very strange Havanese.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

I'd take him to another vet for a second opinion, as soon as possible. Sounds to me like he may be having serious digestive issues. And perhaps he associates that pain to the food he gets from the kitchen, and/or eating. They are smart.

My Tucker has IBD, and it is a delicate balancing act. Blood in the stool would send me to a vet fast, and I'd find a new one since the old one isn't helping.

Glad your husband is better.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Some dogs have a hard time with neutering, but it is usually in the first few days, and gets better over time. I agree with Sheri... I'd get a second opinion from another vet. I hope he's feeling better soon. Same with your husband!!!


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## Val (Aug 4, 2017)

Thanks Sheri, If he is still the same on Monday I will be taking him to a different vet. No emergency service near us. He is eating all his chicken and rice - licking the bowl afterwards - so it's not that he doesn't want to/can't eat. Very strange. I wonder if Rollo has IBD - he has always had problems on and off, I had it completely under control for the past few months. Is IBD prevalent in Havanese?


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

I am not an expert on Hav's, but I hear more and more of digestive issues with many breeds, especially in Havs, since that is the breed I read most about.


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## Val (Aug 4, 2017)

Rollo has recovered and is back to his own little hyperactive self. He has always had digestive issues off and on since we had him, but this was the worst episode by far.

Anyway, poos back to normal and it's as if he suddenly woke up, wants to eat anything going and is jumping all over the place. So day 7 and I have another 3 days of trying to keep him as calm as possible so as not to do damage to his stitches. Then it's back to trying to train the beast  

Thanks to everyone on here for help and support, I am sure I will be back for more as time goes on.

Val X


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