# Limping and Bow-Legged



## leena365

I am hoping to get some advice here regarding my Kashi who is now 8 months old. During the Easter Holidays my two dogs were running in the backyard chasing one another as most dogs do. However, after tiring themselves out I noticed that Kashi walked up to the back door with a slight limp. After examining his paws further I noticed some thorns in his fur around his left paw. I removed them but noticed he was still limping. Coincidentally, I had an appointment for their yearly heart worm blood test. While I was there I told the Vet about his limping He suggested that he may have luxating patellas. However, when he walked for the Vet he did not limp. He suggested it may just be a sprain so restrict his activities for ten days and give the leg a chance to heel. Today both my dogs went for a summer hair cut. After bringing him back from the groomers I noticed he seemed to me be walking bow-legged and I also observed that when he stands up from a down position and starts to move his left leg is off the ground and he puts more weight on the right. I am hoping that all he has is a sprain. I feel he is young to be having genetic problems especially since their parents were show dogs and came from good stock. 

Does anyone have any words of wisdom for me?


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## HavaneseSoon

Leena, 

Have no idea, maybe one of the more knowledgeable members will respond.


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## kelrobin

Leena, when you say he is walking bow-legged, do you mean his leg looks bowed, or he is walking with his legs kind of splayed out as if he is uncomfortable? Did the vet actually examine the patellas? And you didn't say whether it was a back or front leg. An experienced vet can feel the patella and know if it is slipping. It sounds like you might need to go back to the vet and get an x-ray if he can't feel anything and the limping continues. 

My Jackson had a limp for a long time that no one could figure out, and it wasn't until we had an x-ray done that we figured out he had a shoulder issue. It was not anything that could be felt, but I knew something was wrong with his shoulder. The good thing is that he now takes supplements and is doing great, but sometimes it's just hard to figure out. Hopefully it's nothing serious, but the vet needs to explore further.


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## good buddy

He's not too young for genetic issues to show up and show dog parents aren't an iron clad guarentee. However it may not be anything genetic at all. Maybe he is only favoring the paw because he got stabbed with thorns and it hurts. Is it a back leg or a front one?


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## SMARTY

Not enough experience or knowledge to give advice but I'm hoping it is just a strained muscle. There are many threads on crooked or bowed legs and on CD. Keep us posted and good luck.


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## leena365

It is the front left leg looks as if it is splayed to the side. I did call the Vet again today. He said the front leg would not be luxating patellas as the front joint is the elbow joint. He recommend I continue to give him glucosamine with chondroiton with MSM for another week and if it does not get better he will then do an x-ray of that leg. As I said since the hair cut it looks pronounced the limping I am just hoping and praying it is nothing serious. Thanks for all your advice guys!


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## good buddy

leena365 said:


> As I said since the hair cut it looks pronounced the limping I am just hoping and praying it is nothing serious. Thanks for all your advice guys!


I'm confused. Is it the limping that is more pronounced? Or is it bow-legs (curved bones) that is more pronounced? Either way, pictures are always good! hoto:

I hope it's nothing serious too!


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## leena365

It appears as if he is walking with a bow leg. In other words at times he carries the leg as he moves and other times he is running but the bones is curved outwards. I am also hoping it is nothing serious this is my first experience owning pets....

Thanks for your good wishes!


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## Havtahava

It could be elbow dysplasia or several other things. 

I have to admit, I'm a bit bothered that your vet simply wants you to start adding a supplement to his diet without doing a thorough exam to see if there is a problem that is worsening and could be assisted. Have you considered going to a second veterinarian for an opinion?

A limp is generally indicitive of pain. I can't imagine simply adding a virtually untested dietary supplement (that takes one month to even begin to make a difference!) and by phone no less. In my opinion, your vet isn't very kind-hearted nor sympathetic. I'm sure he wouldn't do that to his own pets or children. He'd seek an answer and help relieve the pain, no?


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## good buddy

My feelings are pretty much the same as Kimberly's. I feel like your vet isn't attempting to diagnose and treat the problem, rather is wanting to see if it's something that will go away. That wait and see attitude is fine once something has been looked at and no problems are found and the dog is not in pain and all. 

If it were me, I would want the dog seen as soon as possible to find out exactly what is wrong. I googled elbow dysplasia and the symptoms do sound like that's what it could be. (might not be though-I am not trying to worry you) I just think a vet should see him.


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## kelrobin

Leena, I would definitely get an x-ray! I can't imagine getting a supplement with no diagnosis. And you might want to search out an orthopedic specialist. My vet literally went to the Texas files on Havanese where they have all the studies on Chondrodysplasia and then referred Jackson's x-ray to an orthopedic specialist before making the diagnosis. Your puppy is young enough that many problems could be corrected. Good luck and let us know what you find out.


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## leena365

Yes you have convinced me to get a second opinion. After all a herbal supplement does take 30 days for it to help joint pain not a few days. Miya is really upset she has not been allowed to provoke Kashi into chasing her.

I shall keep you posted.


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## good buddy

Leena, I'm relieved to hear you will seek a second opinion. Please let us know what the vet says and I will be thinking of you and Kashi.


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## leena365

I am getting a second opinion this afternoon regarding Kashi's limping. 
I will keep you guys posted! Let us hope its nothing serious.


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## Sheri

We'll be watching for news. Good luck!


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## Mojo's Mom

So sorry your baby is in pain...you didn't say what kind of veterinarian would be giving a second opinion, but if it's not an orthopedist, it should be. My last dog had a torn achilles tendon once, and the regular vets had no idea what it was (the first one said maybe a bee sting, the second thought orthopedic problem of some sort, but wasn't sure what), but the orthopedist knew instantly what was wrong.

I am wondering why you would think that having "show dog" parents would be any guarantee of not having congenital orthopedic problems.


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## leena365

I don't know if he is in pain, I am assuming he is. All I know is that at times he moves slow and with a limp. I have been told that he be restricted from activity for a week. The Vet I went to this afternoon told me that he is still growing and he would like first to treat the inflammation with medicam for seven days and he also said you can continue with the glucosamine. The medicam is an anti-inflammatory and he would like to go the route of alleviating the pain and inflammation of the joint first and see if that straightens out his limb and if nothing changes after the medication is dispensed then he will do an x-ray. It is amazing the price for exams between vets. Each Vet charges a different cost I have been doing research on the topic as I am not sure where I should continue their health care. I am not sure if this Vet is an Orthapedist. I will find out though.

Well I assumed that when one purchases a Havanese from a breeder who gives you the BAER testing of the parents (who happen to be show dogs) that your genetic pool is better than those that you pickup from a rescue shelter


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## SMARTY

Leena, I am glad you got a second opinion and this vet seems to be addressing the situation. You are so right that vet care can be very varying in cost, but you need to have one that is concerned with the issues of your dogs. 

This forum as does HCA stresses choosing a breeder that does all the testing to better your chances of getting a healthy animal but this is still no guarantee. You did better research most of us. Please keep us posted.


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## good buddy

I'm glad you were able to get in today for a second opinion. The metacam will help reduce the inflammation quickly and address the pain as well. I'm crossing my fingers for you that it's nothing serious.

The Baer test is a hearing test only. It IS one of the tests you want to see results are good for the parents and also for the puppy. Many breeders do a group of tests and record the results on the OFA website for their breeding dogs so potential puppy buyers can see results. Some do more and some do less but it's good to see tests for the Patella (knees), Hips, Cerf (eyes), and heart, thyroid, Leggs-calves-perthes.


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## leena365

Christy, 

I did get all the tests done from this breeder before she sold me Kashi and Miya. She is supposedly a reputable breeder as she has been doing the Havanese now for 11 years. 
But as you all pointed out there is no guarantee with any genetic health issues. We can only all hope and pray we have healthy dogs.
I will observe him on METCAM for the next week and hopefully the limping corrects itself.
Thanks for all your input.


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## leena365

Hey Guys,

Just keeping you posted. I am taking Kashi in again today hopefully this time to get an x-ray and be seen by another VET in the same clinic. I guess the Metacam did not work. He still appears to be limping and in pain. I hope it is nothing serious. My niece came over to visit last night and she told me that sometimes it is better to get a Mutt or mixed breed rather than a purebred as they have less genetic problems. Is this true?


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## Luciledodd

I have had a lot of mutts in my life. As a child Daddy always brought home strays for me. I never remember them going to the Vet for anything but their shots. I have had a lot of mutts in my adult life also. My sheltie-collie mix lived to approx 15 and never was sick either. They stray that I had this fall until I found him a home was healthy as a horse. Makes one wonder, doesn't it. But to be honest, most pets are bought from backyard breeders or pet stores. I am beginning to think that Rosie's breeder was one of those puppy mill breeders. Since she was so sick and then the thing with the mange spot, I contacted the Havanese association in Alabama about her breeder. They had never heard of her. I met the breeder halfway to pick up Rosie--never again. I will go to the breeders facility to check out the next one.


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## hav2

Any animal can have genetic problems, it just depends on the genetics in the line the dog came from. It doesn't matter if they are mixed or purebred. My brother-in-law and sister-in-law give us a hard time because we have purebred dogs and they have mixed rescues. I believe the choice is to each his own. I did lots of research on what kind of dog would fit our family, and when we decided what breeds we liked, we visited. Then we chose a breed and started researching breeders. Unfortunately you can't do that with most mixed dogs, and sometimes you don't know what their temperments are going to turn out like. I had young children to consider and I wanted to know where our dogs were coming from and make sure they were properly socialized. I think mixed breeds are great too, I had one before I had children and he was the best dog ever. So I can see it both ways. I worked in a Vet's office for 6 years before I had children, and I can assure you that both mixed breeds and purebreds all have their issues. The important thing is that you do your research and choose a pet that best fits your family and your life. All that being said, I hope that Kashi is ok, and it is nothing serious


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## good buddy

I hope everything goes well today with Kashi. Sorry to hear he hasn't recovered with just the metacam. IMO purebreeds and mutts have just as many problems. Let us know what happens at the vets k?

If you take a Lab and a Poodle which each have some genetic problems in the breed and now you breed a Labradoodle--that dog is a mutt or mixed breed right? It can carry the good traits from both breeds, the bad traits from both breeds or more than likely a mix.

I grew up with mutts and don't remember having so many problems, but for most families in our neighborhood they also lived out in the yard so I don't think families noticed it as much. Dogs were cheaper and if yours died, you neighbor probably had pups to spare. There wasn't internet to gather so much information and the only reason the Havanese people kow about diseases in our breed is because they are doing genetic testing to attempt to get rid of problems. Mixed breeds aren't.


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## Mojo's Mom

My first two dogs were mutts. I did DNA testing on them to see what breeds were in them and the results showed no pure breed in their lineage for many generations back. What did show up in tiny trace amounts were some of the oldest breeds in the world, such as Shar Pei and Bloodhound. In other words, they were as mutt as it gets.

One had hip dysplasia, an inherited condition, that limited her comfort and ease of motion in her later years. The other tore an achilles tendon, which might or might not have been related to a genetic weakness, and which required expensive surgery and a lengthy recuperation. She also had some skin problems and was prone to ear infections. Otherwise they were generally very healthy. You cannot count on any dog being free of genetic problems.

In any case, a Havanese is what you have, probably for good reasons, I hope. And you don't know what is wrong yet, which is why I am urging you again to get this dog to an orthopedist, ASAP. Re-read my account of the inability of two regular vets to properly diagnose my Bandit's torn tendon, and then the orthopedic vet taking two seconds to tell us what was wrong.

Good luck. Don't fret over your choice of breed, stuff happens, and can happen to any dog.


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## krandall

good buddy said:


> I grew up with mutts and don't remember having so many problems, but for most families in our neighborhood they also lived out in the yard so I don't think families noticed it as much. Dogs were cheaper and if yours died, you neighbor probably had pups to spare. There wasn't internet to gather so much information and the only reason the Havanese people kow about diseases in our breed is because they are doing genetic testing to attempt to get rid of problems. Mixed breeds aren't.


On top of this, many people adopt adult mutts from shelters. There has already been a weeding out process there. The dogs with serious health problems aren't going to be adopted out except to people who are fully aware that they are getting a "special needs dog" and completely willing to take on all that this entails.

Karen


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## good buddy

krandall said:


> On top of this, many people adopt adult mutts from shelters. There has already been a weeding out process there. The dogs with serious health problems aren't going to be adopted out except to people who are fully aware that they are getting a "special needs dog" and completely willing to take on all that this entails.
> 
> Karen


Good point!


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## Mom2Izzo

So what did the vet say???? So sorry you are going thru this


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## good buddy

Oh Nicole, I thought you were Leena! I'm waiting to hear too!


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## leena365

Hi guys,

I went to see two vets today and they took 4 views of Kashi's front legs. It appears that his left leg is bowed because one of the bones in his arm has stopped growing and one is continuing to grow at a regular rate. This they say has caused the pressure on the elbow to distend it outwards and he appears in pain. That being said, they want me to go to Oakland Vetrinary services in Michigan to get looked at by an Orthpopedic Surgeon. He is not certain what we should do next with Kashi he was hoping the METACAM anti-inflammatory would work. He says I need to speak to Dr. Lucy Henney and have Kashi looked at by her. He said she may perform a surgery that would help relieve the pressure on his elbow because the elbow joint is not perfectly circular where the two bones meet. He said the surgery could be as much as 3000.00 what the guarantees are only Dr. Henney would be able to tell us. Has anyone ever come across such an issue with their Havanese? As I said when I purchased these Havanese from a breeder I never thought I would come across a genetic growth issue. What would you guys do?


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## good buddy

leena365 said:


> Has anyone ever come across such an issue with their Havanese? As I said when I purchased these Havanese from a breeder I never thought I would come across a genetic growth issue. What would you guys do?


I would have an orthopedic specialist look at his leg and get their opinion. They can tell you the best way to proceed. They can give you an idea of what can be done, how much money you're talking about and how good an outcome you could expect. I would let the breeder know what's going on to keep them in the loop as well. Did your vet say this IS a genetic growth issue? In some cases a young dog can damage the growth plates in the leg and this is what causes a bone to stop growing. Another member here Katie had a dog that had this happen and shared the story about her little Mouse. I think Mouse was right about the same age too. Maybe Katie will write in soon and give us an update on Mouse, but the last I heard she was doing very well. There have been other dogs on the forum that have needed orthopedic surgery and have done quite well afterwards. Here is the link http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=5763&highlight=Mouse

I'm sorry to hear Kashi has a real problem with the leg and am sending cyber-hugs to you! :hug:


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## good buddy

Hmmmm I was just looking through that old thread and didn't realize it but it was continued in a second thread as the story progressed. Here's the rest of the story.
http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=5883&highlight=Mouse


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## ama0722

I am so sorry and send you a big hug. I would contact your breeder right away as well as it is always good to have all the support you can and come to an informed decision on health issues. While, I am not familiar with the surgery enough to give you advice. There is also Michigan State with their vet school as well if you needed additional resources- I grew up in Michigan and my in laws have taken their dogs there several times for major surgeries over the years.

Sending you hugs,
Amanda


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## Jill in Mich

I'm sorry you're having to go through this. I don't know anything about this particular problem but did want to let you know I used Oakland Veterinary Referral Services when Cody needed knee surgery and was very happy with the care he received. I didn't have the impression of their being "surgery-happy", we discussed all of the options, Cody's knee was just at the point that surgery was necessary. We didn't see the vet you mentioned but I would be comfortable with any vet there. It was definitely pricey. If nothing else, I think it would be worth taking Kashi in for an evaluation to see what their opinion is. As Amanda mentioned, MSU vet clinic is also an option. I've been told it's also very good and less expensive. The one drawback people have mentioned is that you have to plan on waiting a very long time (everyone I talked to told me to plan on spending the day as it can take hours to see the vets).

Good Luck! Let us know what you decide.


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## leena365

I called Michigan State University Jill and they said the cost is the same as Oakland Veterinary Referral Services. My question to all of you is do you get any kind of guarantee from the breeder if your dog is still under a year old and has health issues.


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## trueblue

leena365 said:


> I called Michigan State University Jill and they said the cost is the same as Oakland Veterinary Referral Services. My question to all of you is do you get any kind of guarantee from the breeder if your dog is still under a year old and has health issues.


Unfortunately, if your contract is the same as mine, the only thing covered is death due to a genetic illness or total blindness. I know we have the same breeder, so I am guessing that the contracts are the same.


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## good buddy

leena365 said:


> I called Michigan State University Jill and they said the cost is the same as Oakland Veterinary Referral Services. My question to all of you is do you get any kind of guarantee from the breeder if your dog is still under a year old and has health issues.


Leena,

I don't know if your state has any laws about it. I think it all comes down to what is stated in your contract. In my contract, genetic issues are covered up to the amount I paid for my dog, but it does have to be determined to be a genetic issue. Accidents and such aren't the breeders responsibility. I also had the option to return either of my dogs for full refund for any reasons up to the age of 18 months old. I would never be able to return one of my dogs though--I love them too much! Did your contract specify what would happen should something come up in the future?


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## Luciledodd

Wow this is a big decision. I know that the financial burden can be a factor in this. Three thousand dollars would be a burden to me and I don't know what I would do if Rosie had something like that come up. Feel for you and hope all turns out well.


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## MopTop Havanese

hello-
I did have a 6 month old puppy that required surgery simular to the one they are talking about for Kashi. Although my Mouse didnt have her growth plates close, she had a deformed shoulder joint (that I noticed when she was about 5-6 weeks old) and we did the surgery in hopes to relive some pressure in her shoulder. She was limping prior to the surgery, and she continues to limp now, and it's almost been 2 years since her surgery. The surgery did NOT straighten her leg out or fix her limp. She does not appear to be in any pain today, her limp is because the bowed leg is 'shorter' than the straight leg- and yes, she is doing great now-
Her surgery cost me around $1800 when everything was said and done, and was performed by an orthopedic surgeon in my vets office. I will tell you that recovery was rough, but Mousie was a trouper and recovered well.
As far as your contract with your breeder- I am not sure what your contract says so I can't comment on that. I am a breeder and I chose to have the surgery done on Mouse before she went to her new home so she could recover here with me, but every breeder is going to be different and have different things in their contract.
Please contact me if you have any other questions- [email protected]


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## leena365

I did email my breeder. She said she would adopt a wait and see attitude regarding Kashi. She said "I do not know what it is as I have not had this before. I would be cautious on jumping into surgery. There are vets just like people doctors that want to do surgery because that is how they make their living. Get several opinions. Could be he just hurt himself and you need to give him some time to heal. Dogs can hurt themselves playing just like people". After I indicated that I have had an x-ray done she recommends also to go see the orthopedic surgeon and get her advice on the leg.


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## leena365

Has anyone tried putting splint on a dog's leg to fix the problem? I mean so that the paw is forced to sit forward and down as does the other paw. What is the success rate of going through surgery of this kind? Do I still go for the consult on Tuesday at Oakland Referral Services or do I adopt a wait and see attitude? Its a tough call. As I said I am a first time pet owner and my other dog has no issues whatsoever.


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## kelrobin

Leena, I am so sorry to read about this. I was worried when you posted about the "bowing." I would definitely go ahead and have your orthopedic consult and not try to do anything yourself without a medical opinion first. You can hear what they have to say and then always make your own decision.

I know what you are going through partially because of what I went through with Jackson and his ongoing limp. His did not show up until he was 1 1/2, and his was in his shoulder and was diagnosed as degenerative joint disease. He also has some bone irregularities in his front legs, but the orthopedic specialist did not think those were causing any issues.

With the growth stopping in one of Kashi's legs, I can imagine there is quite a bit of discomfort. Since there was nothing surgical recommended for Jackson, these are the meds and supplements we were given, and my vet is VERY picky about safety and tries to use as many natural remedies as possible. The thing he did tell me was that I needed to do _something_ rather than nothing to relieve the pain. He also said by doing nothing, there would probably be major arthritis issues down the road as Jackson ages.

*Previcox *- 57 mg - 1/2 tablet once daily with food, 1/4 tablet was recommended first to see if that worked. 
This worked wonders!! Jackson immediately seemed out of pain and back to his old self bouncing around. I gave it to him for about a week, and then would give him a 1/4 tablet if I knew he was going to have a particulary active day. It is not something you want to give all the time, and I have not given it to him now in months (probably from the supplement below helping.) I do know that you cannot give it to a dog under 12 1/2 lbs. so Kashi might not be able to take it. This is the medical info:

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AnimalVeterinary/Products/ApprovedAnimalDrugProducts/DrugLabels/UCM050402.pdf

*Cosequin DS* - this is a glucosamine and chondroitin supplement with a little manganese. It comes in a large bottle of 100 or 250, and you start out giving 1/2 tablet crushed in the food twice a day for 4-6 weeks until you see improvement. After that you give 1/2 tab every day. I talked to my vet the other day about the great improvement I have noticed in Jackson, and he said it works really well on young dogs. There are great documented results on this supplement helping. I do know you can get this on-line for about $40 for 100 tabs.

I am certainly not pushing either of these for Kashi other than they worked for Jackson's pain. I do think the Previcox might be worth a try to ease the discomfort if your vet recommends it. The Cosequin is very safe and would not hurt anything either . . . just is a little pricey and does take time to kick in.

You might want to try and restrict Kashi's activity level and try to keep him from jumping off of things that put pressure on the front legs until he's better. Best of luck and keep us posted . . .:grouphug:


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## leena365

Thanks Kathy, I have tried to keep Kashi's activities restricted at times its difficult as I have another dog who constantly provokes him. I am planning to take him to the Orthopedist on Tuesday as I do see that he is feeling some discomfort when he moves. I am also noticing side affects with the METACAM so I have discontinued it until I see the Vet on Tuesday and I shall continue with the glucosamine. I am really worried about the side affects of prescription drugs. I have noticed my Kashi has become lethargic and does not eat at all, he has lost two pounds since he started on the METCAM.


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## Sheri

Poor little guy! Poor you!


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## boo2352

I'm just catching up on this thread. MacGyver had surgery on his right leg because of bone growth problem that was causing the bowing. The xray showed this very clearly, and I'd go ahead with the orthopedic consultation. The recovery from the surgery was long -- we took turns sitting with him for 12 weeks to keep him quiet, and followed a strict exercise program. He also had aquatherapy, which he loved. He occasionally limps now (more of a tripping) but doesn't seem to be in any pain. His leg still looks funny, but the orthopedist told us this would be the case. The surgery was more to relieve the pressure and prevent further joint problems later. He also takes Cosaquin every day.


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## krandall

leena365 said:


> I called Michigan State University Jill and they said the cost is the same as Oakland Veterinary Referral Services. My question to all of you is do you get any kind of guarantee from the breeder if your dog is still under a year old and has health issues.


Depends completely on your contract. Mine covers genetic health problems for the life of the dog. However, it sounds like it's not a sure thing that this IS a genetic problem and not damage to the growth plate, right?


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## krandall

leena365 said:


> I did email my breeder. She said she would adopt a wait and see attitude regarding Kashi. She said "I do not know what it is as I have not had this before. I would be cautious on jumping into surgery. There are vets just like people doctors that want to do surgery because that is how they make their living. Get several opinions. Could be he just hurt himself and you need to give him some time to heal. Dogs can hurt themselves playing just like people". After I indicated that I have had an x-ray done she recommends also to go see the orthopedic surgeon and get her advice on the leg.


That all seems like very reasonable advice.


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## krandall

leena365 said:


> Has anyone tried putting splint on a dog's leg to fix the problem? I mean so that the paw is forced to sit forward and down as does the other paw. What is the success rate of going through surgery of this kind? Do I still go for the consult on Tuesday at Oakland Referral Services or do I adopt a wait and see attitude? Its a tough call. As I said I am a first time pet owner and my other dog has no issues whatsoever.


I would DEFINITELY go for the consult... I don't think you can make an informed decision on where a wait-and-see approach even makes sense until you have had an orthopedic specialist look at her. Going for a consult doesn't mean you have to follow through with surgery if you decide not to.


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## good buddy

MopTop Havanese said:


> hello-
> I did have a 6 month old puppy that required surgery simular to the one they are talking about for Kashi. Although my Mouse didnt have her growth plates close, she had a deformed shoulder joint (that I noticed when she was about 5-6 weeks old) and we did the surgery in hopes to relive some pressure in her shoulder.


Sorry Katie. I wrote that poorly. It wasn't a similar thing that happened, but having the curved bones in the arm was what I meant was similar.


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## mellowbo

I am so sorry to hear your sad story. I wish it could be clear as to if this is a genetic issue or the results of an injury. If it were genetic I would hope your breeder would be there for you as well as taking precautions with future breedings.
It is important for puppies to never be allowed to jump off anything they can't jump onto for the first year because of injuries. And, much better would be if they just didn't jump off things at all for the first year but sometimes that's impossible to watch when they can get themselves up there!
I have been fortunate that my breeders have given me that warning and I wish they all would.
All paws are crossed here for good results!!


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## tabby2

I am so very sorry to hear about your troubles. I agree with the advice to go ahead with the consult(s); that way, you're armed with the most information that you can get as you decide how to proceed. 

Perhaps you can also ask the vets whether this is more likely to be injury or genetic. 

Fingers crossed that you get some good news.......Jane 

P.S. One of my Cavaliers had neck and back problems and I got several ramps for my sofas and bed which worked well to keep her from jumping off. There's a place in Nebraska that makes them; very sturdy and for a modest price. Just a thought.


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## leena365

I checked with the breeder my contract does not cover monetary assistance with genetic issues. They will only replace the puppy if it were to die within 5 years due to genetic issues. However, as this time I am not certain if it is a genetic issue or damage to the growth plate. I shall find out on Tuesday from the Orthopedic Vet in Michigan. I hope I get some definitive answers at that time.

Thank you all for your good wishes and thoughts.


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## leena365

Can you give me the place that makes these ramps in Nebraska? I would really be interested for Kashi as he is not able to jump onto anything and he has not since he was a pup I should have noticed the problem at that time? As you all said I will be certain to ask the question whether it was injury induced or if it is a genetic problem.


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## mellowbo

Leena, no, you didn't miss seeing anything. I don't think mine could actually jump onto a sofa or chair until after 8 months. You didn't do anything wrong. Just watch that he doesn't jump off anything that you put him onto.
The ramps and stairs are great to protect their legs and backs no matter what age!


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## tabby2

leena365 said:


> Can you give me the place that makes these ramps in Nebraska? I would really be interested for Kashi as he is not able to jump onto anything and he has not since he was a pup I should have noticed the problem at that time? As you all said I will be certain to ask the question whether it was injury induced or if it is a genetic problem.


Here's the link: www.petclassics.com -- click on "indoor ramps". I've had mine for probably 6 or 7 years and they're still really sturdy. Plus the people at this company are really nice and helpful.

Please don't question yourself about this, Carole is right that you haven't done anything wrong. In fact,it sounds to me like you caught it early and have been on top of it, doing everything you can. My vet told me once that lameness is one of the most difficult things to diagnose because there are so many potential causes and our dogs try to hide it as long as possible.

Jane


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## MopTop Havanese

Christy- no prob at all, thanks for linking to Mouse's story! 

Leena- I would def go for the consult. NO, just 'splinting' the leg is not going to get you the same results as surgery. During surgery they acutally remove part of the inner leg bone, allowing release of some of the pressure in the elbow joint. Having the sugery done (or not) is going to be up to you. I had the choice to not do the surgery for Mouse. But I did lots of research and decided to do the surgery to hopefully help Mouse. I feel that I made the right choice.


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## krandall

mellowbo said:


> Leena, no, you didn't miss seeing anything. I don't think mine could actually jump onto a sofa or chair until after 8 months. You didn't do anything wrong. Just watch that he doesn't jump off anything that you put him onto.
> The ramps and stairs are great to protect their legs and backs no matter what age!


Yes, Kodi didn't start jumping up on furniture until around Christmas time, so just like yours, right around 8 months! The funny thing was that he learned to jump up on one loves seat, and it was a couple more weeks before he figured out that he could get on the other love seat and the couch. (all EXACTLY the same)


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## leena365

Thanks for all your good wishes and suggestions guys. I shall keep you posted as to what the Vet tells me on Tuesday.


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## SMARTY

No advice or experience but I would go for the consult. I posted a long time ago if jumping and bumping caused bone damage then Smarty was doomed. There is no way we can keep them from being dogs. I will be thinking of you Tuesday.


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## leena365

I agree with you totally Sandy. My next question is has anyone had any side affects from METACAM? My vet would like me to try TRAMADOL if the other one was giving him upset stomach, lethargy, loss of appetite. I am assuming he is still in pain as he is still limping I don't hear any whimpering should I still give him the pain medication?


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## kimber

Leena,
I wish you the best with your appointment on Tuesday. I do want to tell you that my Hav, Bentley had surgery for Luxating Patella when he was about 1 year old. He had it on one knee only and it was definitely something that was never in his breeding line. They were all tested, etc. If you have to go through this I can talk to you about what to expect and the recovery. Bentley is perfect now (4 years old) and plays, jumps, runs, and does anything he wants. It was so worth having it. My vet and orthopedic was able to diagnose the LP without ex-rays. There is a way to feel the knee cap to see if it is attached. Bentley used to be running and all the sudden he would only be walking on three legs. I could manipulate the knee cap joint to put it back in place.
I hated when he limped. It made me so sad. Let us know what the orthopedic says. 
Please feel free to ask me any ? or call me if it is Luxating Patella. Good Luck!


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## kelrobin

Leena, I am sorry no one has given you feedback on the pain meds. Did you try the Tramadol? I am not familiar with it, but I personally would not use it unless he seems to be in pain. I think less is better in a dog that young unless he is really suffering.


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## leena365

Kathy, I tried going without any pain medication on the weekend although my doctor did have Tramadol set aside for me to give Kashi if he continued to show pain. I have read up on the side affects of this drug as well. As you know my Kashi is quite a sensitive dog. I am hoping he is able to handle this drug better than he did the METACAM. I gave him his first dosage today. I am also with you when it comes to less is better. However, after reading on the internet on how you can tell a dog is in pain I felt it necessary to give him one tablet today. I am more than sure now that he will most likely be a candidate for surgery when I see the vet tomorrow in Michigan.


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## kimber

Leena,

I forgot to tell you that Bentley was also on Tramodol 50mg. I gave him 1/2 tablet twice a day for pain after his surgery. He was in pain and it helped him. Bentley was also on Deramaxx -25mg for inflammation. I always trust the advice I get from my vet and go from there. I know there are people that will not agree with this but this is just my personal preference.


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## leena365

My Vet gave me capsules and that too 15mg to be given as needed every 12 hours. I shall see what the orthopedic vet recommends tomorrow after we take him for a consult.


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## hedygs

Leena I'm so sorry I missed this thread earlier. Oakland Vet is very well regarded so it is a good place to start.

I work right down the block from them so if you'd like some company while you wait, I'd love to pop in and say Hi or bring you a cup of Starbucks to move the time along.

Thinking of you and Kashi. I know how stressed you must be.


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## Kathie

Leena, I hope the vet appt. goes well tomorrow and it is something that does not require surgery. Keeping Kashi in my prayers.


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## leena365

Please do. I shall be at Oakland Referral Services at 8 30am along with my daughter and MIYA. I hope I make it in time I have to drive down from Windsor. I love Starbucks and maybe you meeting me there might bring me some good luck. Thanks so much.


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## leena365

From your mouth to God's ears Kathy. Thanks for all your good wishes!


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## leena365

Hey all, I am just letting you guys know that Kashi has had to have surgery for his left front leg as he did injure that leg while playing or jumping and the ulna stopped growing. I have left him at Oakland Veterinary overnight. I will be able to pick him back up tomorrow at which time I will be crating him to keep him immobilized for some time until that leg heals. Hedy I would like to thank you for stopping by and sharing your stories with me. I want to thank you all for the support and love you guys have shown me on this forum.


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## kimber

leena-all the best with Kashi and wishes for a fast recovery! Bentley recovered very fast from his surgery. Get a edwardian (SP) collar so he doesn't want to lick at it.....you vet will probably tell you that !!!! Sending good wishes your way. Bentley had to spend the night also! Kashi will do fine!


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## good buddy

Leena, Best wishes to Kashi with his surgery and recovery. I've been wondering how it all went today. Hugs to you and Kashi!


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## Sheri

Been thinking of you and hoping to hear soon. Thanks for posting the info--he's not getting the surgery today, is he? Did they need to keep him overnight because of sedation for the exam? When is the surgery?


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## krandall

Wow, Leena, That was fast! I had no idea that they could actually do the surgery the same day!

Good luck to your little guy, and best wishes for a speedy recovery!


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## boo2352

MacGyver had the exact same surgery and made a nice recovery. We got to spend lots of time holding him in our laps, and sitting in the recliner with someone is still his favorite thing to do. I'm sure Kashi will feel better soon. Keep us posted.


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## Leslie

So glad they were able to help him, and so quickly, too. Sending special thoughts and prayers for a speedy uneventful recovery. :hug:


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## kelrobin

Leena, so glad they could take Kashi quickly and get this corrected. Hope all goes well and he makes a speedy recovery! Belly rubs to him as he heals


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## leena365

Thank you all for your good wishes and prayers for Kashi. I have spoken to the doctors at Oakland Veterinary since the surgery was done at 1:00 this afternoon. Yes I was lucky I did not have to bring him back another day for the surgery. I run a business and its hard to getaway so we thought that if they could schedule him today then so be it. I am just hoping that Miya will be able to stay away from him while he is recovering. My husband suggested I seperate the dogs while they he is recovering. Any thoughts on this matter from you who have two Havanese?


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## hedygs

Leena I'm so glad to hear Oakland Vet contacted you. I just came home from work and must admit I was thinking of Kashi all day. I told you he was in good hands. 

Did you get a recommended list of things that they think you will need to keep him calm and quiet? Someone suggested that he will need to wear the plastic cone and of course they are probably right. I do have a Bite-Not collar that I could lend you if you think that might help.

I'm so glad I could keep you company today. It was a pleasure to meet all of you. I started thinking that maybe I was a complete moron/downer with my tales about Domino. 

Let me know if there is anything I can do tomorrow. I know you are probably coming on your own so if I can help just holler.


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## leena365

Thanks for all your help and support Hedy. I really enjoyed about hearing about Domino no matter how hard it was for you to remember it. I have never seen a bite collar. I have an elizabethan one that I got when he was neutered. Is the bite collar made of cloth or plastic. I would love to see you again tomorrow this time let me bring the coffee? Just tell me how you take it before I set out?


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## hedygs

LOL! It was quite the doh moment for me when I realized I hadn't asked you how you liked your coffee. Thanks for the offer but you'll have plenty on your plate without worrying about coffee. I'll probably be coming from the office anyway so I'll take a raincheck. 

Bite Not collar:

http://www.bitenot.com/dog.html

They might have them there. I think they are much more comfortable for your guy then the hard plastic.

I think the one I used for Gitter will fit Kashi. We can check. If not I guess you can just use the plastic one. Maybe someone will weigh in on the collar here.


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## MopTop Havanese

AFter Mouse had her surgery, she was not even able to WALK on it for I think 10 days. She had to stay in an x-pen 100% of the time, unless one of us was holding her on the couch. I even had to carry her out to go potty, on a leash, and as soon as she went I picked her back up and carried her back into the x-pen. 
It is VERY important that they don't over-do it or put too much pressure on that leg, they have actually REMOVED part of the inner bone, leaving a gap in that bone and they don't want anything to go wrong or hinder the healing.
I was VERY cautious with Mouse and really made her take it easy.
I would def invest in an x-pen, as you will need it. He will need to be kept away from Miya for quite a while. He won't be running or playing for a couple weeks at least-
Please email me if you have any questions or concerns- as I have been in yoru shoes and gone thru the recovery. [email protected]


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## leena365

I was told he has not really touched his leg as of yet but that could change. I would not mind looking at the collar you have Hedy if you think it will fit Kashi? I can always return it to you on my return when they have to remove the stitches? If not I guess the plastic one I have will do. I will try to keep them apart as much as possible Katie. Poor Miya will feel so lonely even with Kashi there as he will not be able to play with her. I may bring my son with me tomorrow since my daughter cannot make it Hedy. Thanks again for all your comments and support.


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## Sheri

I'm so surprised that they could do the surgery the same day as your appointment. Was it hard for you to decide to do it that fast, without checking with your DH? 

Sending good wishes for you all tomorrow and the weeks to come!


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## leena365

I was lucky they were able to fit him in today as someone canceled or just was not ready to do the surgery for their pet. What is a DH? I had to come down all the way from Windsor so I thought it best to get it over and done with today. Thanks for the good wishes Sheri.


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## Sheri

Ah, most folks on here call their husband "DH".


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## leena365

Katie, I have four x-pens and three crates. I don't think I should have a problem in keeping him away from MIYA if I leave one at home and bring one to work. The doctor told me no walking on it at all for two weeks just make sure that you stretch the leg while he is laying down as you want is range of motion to be intact. She said no rough play for at least a month.


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## leena365

Oh Darling Husband how cute! But of course I checked with my other half via cell phone before I proceeded with the surgery. As I said I run a business so the sooner I got it done the better for me and my kids are done exams so they will help me with the recovery.


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## good buddy

Sheri said:


> Ah, most folks on here call their husband "DH".


Most days it stands for "dear husband" and then some other days...well ya know.. :tape:


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## pacehavi

I'm so glad that the surgery went well so that he can start healing ASAP and soon be running and playing again with his sister! Give him lots of love from my two pups.


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## hedygs

Poor Miya she'll be one confused little girl. Leena I can hear her barking at Kashi to hurry up and play already. 

Leena you have a pair of cute Havs. Did Miya ever decide that she needed to go potty? She sure had me wrapped around her little paw as I walked and walked and walked and let her check out every patch of grass outside and she did nothing....the stinker.


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## kimber

Hi Leena-
I am glad Kashi is resting well. I want to tell you about what will probably happen. After Bentley's surgery he did not have anything to do with his incision for about 1 day. The hospital told me that I wouldn't need a collar.....well.....when he got home he was sleepy most of the time and on pain meds. As soon as he started feeling better he was obsessed with the incision. What saved me was the soft sided e-collar below. He hated the hard
plastic one. While I waited for one to be delivered I simply put a thick dish towel around his neck loosely. You know how their necks are thick, well I attached the dish towel with a few clips and it worked! He couldn't reach his incision!

My Wheaten Terrier sensed that Bentley was down and out and really stayed away from him. I think she was happy that Bentley was not bugging him all the time to play. I carried him everywhere. Up and down the stairs (he had to sleep with me) and out to pee pee, etc. It went fast. Before you know it Kashi will be his old self. DO watch for infection on the incision. Bentleys got alittle infected and we had to go back to Animal Hospital for treatment. 
It will get bright red and oozy. GOOD LUCK Leena. Hugs to you and Kashi.
Please feel free to PM me if you have anything to ask or need support for anything!!!! 
Kimber


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## kimber

Sorry Leena----I did not tell you the name of the collar. It is available on Amazon.com
Just google this:
Four Paws Comfy Cone Small 12.5 CM
$11.00 - $17.00 Compare Prices from 4 stores


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## ama0722

Sending good thoughts your way for a speedy recovery and quiet pups on both side of the xpen. I am also really happy to see you had a forum member to help you deal with some stress-how wonderful is this forum! <hugs>


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## hedygs

Leena how are YOU this morning. Give me a shout when you are on your way and we can coordinate meeting at Oakland Vet. I have the collar in my car so my elderly brain won't forget it. The techs can check to see if it is a good fit for Kashi (if you like it as well). 

I am sure you are all excited to bring him home.


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## kelrobin

We used the Bite Not collar on Jackson when he was neutered. I hated the hard plastic cone, and Jackson just froze when I put anything on him except the Bite Not. Hope all goes well today when you bring home your little patient.


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## Mom2Izzo

Wow, just catching up! So sorry to hear Kashi had to have surgery. Hope all is well this morning! Please update when you can Leena!


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## leena365

Hey guys, thanks for your good wishes and thoughts. Kashi is doing fine. I am heading over there in about an hour to pick him up. I personally do not like the hard collars as well. I am sure he is going to need a bite not collar for his neck. I like the idea of tea towels around his neck. Thanks Hedy I would love to borrow yours. As I said I do have to go back to remove the stitches in two weeks and she said to keep the bandage on so I am hoping no infection is picked up. Again thanks for all your support and love. I just love this forum!


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## mintchip

:grouphug:Get well soon Kashi :grouphug:


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## Brady's mom

I am just catching up on this thread. I am so sorry that you and Kashi have to go through this. I will be thinking of you both. Best wishes for a speedy recovery!


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## Pixiesmom

Pixie wishes you a very speedy recovery Kashi!


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## leena365

Would the 12.5cm be enough for Kashi? Apparently, he is still able to get at his leg with the soft no bite collar you gave me Hedy. I think a cone is going to be needed I just need to make sure I order the right size.


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## leena365

Thank you for your good wishes Pixie, Kashi really appreciates it


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## Beamer

Wishing Kashi very speedy recovery!!!

Ryan


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## leena365

Thanks so much Ryan. I hope the time flies it is odd to see him shaved and limping with a plastic shoe over the leg


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## kelrobin

Aw, poor Kashi! I guess the cone really does have it's purpose at times. The front leg is so close to the head that the Bite Not is probably not restrictive enough. He will get used to his little cast in time. It will be a challenging week, but so thankful they were able to fix him! <<<Hugs>>>


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## leena365

Thank you Kathy. I think there is a local store here in Windsor that carries the soft e-collars. I will check it out on my way home with him. Thanks for you good wishes for a speedy recovery.


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## leena365

thank you sally, oliver and comet. thank you karen brady and dugan. He has been sleeping since I brought him back to the office. I am going to feel bad when I have to wake him to give him his pain medication and put him back in his crate to go in the car.


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## SMARTY

Boy this was fast, go away for a few days and things happen. Glad to hear everything seems to have gone so well.


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## boo2352

Glad to hear everything went well and he's resting. MacGyver had to wear a cone -- nothing else worked. He adjusted to it immediately, and the only problem was the matting in his ears when we finally got to take it off.


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## krandall

Kodi and I send gentle hugs, Leena!:hug:


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## kimber

Leena,
I hope Kashi is feeling better soon. I am glad the surgery is behind him (and you!)
XOXO
Kimber


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## hedygs

Leena sorry the collar didn't work. 

How is Kashi? He was so sweet when you picked him up. You could tell he was plumb tuckered out but so happy to see you.


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## leena365

I just thought I would let you all know I finally brought KASHI home. He is doing just fine. I also have the Softcone E-Collar put on him as he was trying to lick at his bandage. Since he came home he had some cheeze with his capsule of Tramadol and he is now resting really comfortably on my kingsize bed. I have kept MIYA away from him by keeping her downstairs with my daughter. Thank you again for all your good wishes for a speedy recovery!


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## leena365

thanks Kim.


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## leena365

thanks Karen and Kodi


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## leena365

Thanks for helping me get him in the car Hedy. It really helps to have another pair of hands when your holding a dog recovering from surgery. As you said, I should have had someone along for the ride. He was so hungry and thirsty while I was driving. However, as soon as we arrived back to the office. He had something to eat and drink and then he went potty for me in the X-PEN. I am very fortunate he is such a good dog and I thank my lucky stars for him everyday!


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## Kathie

How is Kashi doing today, Leena? I hope he (and you) had a good night.


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## leena365

Thanks for inquiring Kathy. He slept well all night however since he has been on TRAMADOL he has not eaten or gone to the bathroom since yesterday. This worries me, I hope he eats by the evening. Its hard to know how much suffering to allow so that the meds don't decrease his appetite. He is also reluctant to use the leg. I am hoping it changes day by day.


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## krandall

Hi Leena,

At this point, it could still very well be lingering effects from the anesthesia that are keeping him from eating rather than the tramodol. But you could always spread the tramodol out a little further and see if he seemed to be in more pain or if it helped his appetite.

I wanted to ask you, too. You said that his problem was caused by an injury? Were the doc's sure of that, and how did they know? That would probably be useful information for other owners who have a similar problem, and for breeders who have a new owner come back to them wondering if a problem like this could be genetic.


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## leena365

They did not tell me how they knew it was injury related but she told me that 99% of the cases are so. When I go back for a follow-up I shall ask her how she is so certain that most of the cases are injury related.


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