# Upset with trainer, need to vent



## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

Migo completed his puppy class and now we're taking beginning obedience. He's doing very well except his sits are behind me instead of beside me (heel position). I could use some advice on this. I've tried luring him forward but he still sits behind me every time. 

Migo had his rabies vaccine around 6PM, this could be relevant since it seems that he was way off during his class tonight at 8PM.

Anyway, we were doing down-stays, and Migo had done two good ones out of five or so when the trainer appeared. We tried in front of her but Migo got up after I told him to wait. She then said "when he gets up do this.. " and took Migo and forced him to the ground and held him there saying "just don't let him get up, if he tries keep him down." Migo doesn't know this lady well (this is our second session with her). He is terrified and starts yelping. She throws treats in front of him and continues to hold him down and he keeps yelping. He's not interested in treats, he's clearly terrified. I'm in shock and regret not doing anything about it. I just stood there with my jaw open. She then says "small dogs usually have trouble with down" as if that was an excuse for him not obeying her?

What do you think? Should I keep going to this trainer? This was our 2nd class so there's no getting a refund now (fine by me), but I was thinking about continuing just to have motivation to reach my goals. I don't want her to touch Migo again though. This lady believe in being the dominant alpha over your dog, but I believe in building my dog's trust and frankly don't believe in many of the old dog training techniques. We just don't have the same principles I suppose.


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## GlenK (Feb 9, 2016)

I'm no expert dog trainer but that would be my last visit there.


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## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

GlenK said:


> I'm no expert dog trainer but that would be my last visit there.


After this morning, I don't think I will be. Migo won't go into a down at all now when I'm near him and hasn't since it happened. He was pretty good at downs yesterday! I make him do a down-wait for his food but this morning he only went into the down after I walked away (to take a break and try again after a minute). I'm not a dog training expert either. I don't know if this is a direct result of yesterday or what. Could it also be the vaccine? He's not lethargic and has a great appetite still so I doubt it.


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## GlenK (Feb 9, 2016)

It had to be a very traumatizing event and will take some time. Sounds like you are handling it well. Patience will be the key.


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## Chi-Chi's Mom (Dec 10, 2015)

I'm angry just reading this post. I do wish you luck in finding a better trainer.


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## Barbara Levy (Apr 22, 2016)

He's still a baby! I would change trainers. It could be the vaccine but it could be a thousand other distractions at that age. Even at 15 months, Loki can get tired or distracted. (Of course, I am not so great at practicing but we keep going to obedience classes so he is getting it.) I am sure that Karen and the other experts will weigh in but I would keep working on down with super tasty treats and heaps of praise when he does it. Are you using a clicker? If so, you can mark the behavior when he does a down unbidden, like when you turned away. Just click and treat. He will get it.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yes find a new trainer, that your dog seems unsettled around her is not good, thats not a good way to train , period.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Poor Migo...I would be very upset! I probably would have walked out.


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## Askavi (Nov 5, 2015)

I would never go back. Additionally, I would give a terrible review wherever possible. (Yahoo, Google, etc.) That is -NOT- positive reinforcement training just because the trainer throws treats down after mishandling the dog. PUPPY.


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## Magnadoodle (Apr 19, 2017)

I would be so upset! That sounds like an awful experience. I would let the training facility know as well, with a phone call and a review.


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

I don't this behavior from a trainer one bit.
Its actually quite shocking.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

what you've described is a trainer using a form of compulsive training /molding. Here is why this is not a good idea. https://paws4udogs.wordpress.com/2011/09/23/compulsive-training/


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## Tux's Mom (May 24, 2016)

I think you have learned a valuable lesson not to let anyone affect your dog in a negative way. Anyone who "trains" in that manner doesn't have a clue". Havanese are really sensitive. I have discovered that the softer my voice, the more Tux listens and obeys ("sit" in an elevator for instance). If he is misbehaving, (playing with a sofa pillow with his mouth), he stops if I speak calmly and point to a more acceptable object to attack. They really really love it when they can derive a positive response from the people they love. When Tux tries to take his nasty chew bone to the wonderfully soft and fluffy wool rug, he readily reverses when I say in a happy voice, "take your bone to this rug" (pointing to a door mat rug) and then say, "GOOD BOY" when he obeys. When he was younger and headed for the forbidden rug, I would try to get his bone from him, but that turned into a "keep-away" game he thought was great fun. I figured I needed to walk away, do something that intrigued him enough for him to leave the bone, and then I would take it when he wasn't looking and give it back to him in the appropriate chew spot.

He forgets, or he's not sure if there is an appropriate time when its acceptable to chew his bone on the expensive rug because I get busy and don't see the infraction until too late. I figure he is still learning this human world. He makes mistakes, but is so proud when he corrects and gets a "Good Boy" response. For the most part, he is really well behaved now in spite of his youth.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

I agree that you should not return to that class and that you should express your displeasure to the facility as well as in reviews. Shama has always been very treat-oriented, and she went in to a down happily when a treat was drawn out from her nose. Being able to stay in a down will come with practice. Hang in there!


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## Bowie's Mom (Oct 1, 2016)

I agree with all the above. But I would demand a refund from the owner/supervisor. What she did to your poor pup was just cruel!


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

Even if a trainer doesn't work by a LIMA (least invasive, minimally aversive) training model, forcing a dog into a down is a poor way of training it. There is no connection being made as the dog isn't the one performing the behavior. Havanese are smart and biddable dogs who take correction of any kind very seriously, so while I am not a fan of aversive, punitive techniques for any dog, they are especially unhelpful and potentially damaging for Havs, but even a good number of trainers trainers who don't focus on positive reinforcement (those who also include positive punishment and negative reinforcement) will agree this is a harmful way of teaching any behavior.


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## karidyne (Apr 28, 2017)

I left a review yesterday to warn other dog owners. I also spoke to another trainer at a different facility about what happened. We attend her puppy socialization classes and have been waiting for an opening to attend her training classes. After she heard she opened a spot for us in her puppy class so we now have another place to go to!


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## Chi-Chi's Mom (Dec 10, 2015)

karidyne said:


> I left a review yesterday to warn other dog owners. I also spoke to another trainer at a different facility about what happened. We attend her puppy socialization classes and have been waiting for an opening to attend her training classes. After she heard she opened a spot for us in her puppy class so we now have another place to go to!


So happy for you and your pup! What a kind gesture.


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## Tux's Mom (May 24, 2016)

karidyne said:


> I left a review yesterday to warn other dog owners. I also spoke to another trainer at a different facility about what happened. We attend her puppy socialization classes and have been waiting for an opening to attend her training classes. After she heard she opened a spot for us in her puppy class so we now have another place to go to!


Yea!!! Kudos to her!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

karidyne said:


> I left a review yesterday to warn other dog owners. I also spoke to another trainer at a different facility about what happened. We attend her puppy socialization classes and have been waiting for an opening to attend her training classes. After she heard she opened a spot for us in her puppy class so we now have another place to go to!


That's awesome to hear. What that other trainer did was so wrong on so many levels. I'm sorry that happened to BOTH of you!


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