# a question about Cuba and the Havanese breed



## andra (Aug 23, 2010)

So, this may be an obvious question to the more experienced owners and breeders here, but as a newbie who is constantly trying to learn and one with a strong desire to learn more, I have a question about Cuba, the country, and the Havanese.

Recently, our local newspaper's Sunday travel section had a huge article on travel to Cuba. Travel to Cuba is now possible, but only through a few travel agencies that put together group tours. A person cannot just decide to go there, but if you have a tour group and a focus for a tour (i.e. education, culture, ballet, cuisine), they can even design a tour for your group. This allows some flexibilty but still, the tour has to be with one of the specific groups that are approved for this kind of thing.

Reading the article got me thinking about travel to Cuba specifically to see some of the Havanese dog shows there (in addition to other cultural experiences). In searching the web, I found some websites that show some of the Havanese dog shows in Cuba.

My curious questions for the forum are as follows :

Has anybody traveled to Cuba? Would you go if your life allowed for this?
Has anybody adopted a Havanese directly from Cuba? Is it possible to adopt from Cuba? Has anybody had their dog bred with a dog from Cuba? Are the Havanese dogs in Cuba the same as the ones here?

I am not planning on traveling to Cuba in case any of you were wondering LOL but I think it would be kindof cool to go there and see the dogs and to get a better understanding of their heritage. I realize my questions probably sound incredibly silly, but after reading that article, I had visions of contacting one of the travel agencies and stating that I wanted to create a "tour de Havanese" and I would expect either smiles or looks of puzzlement.

Also, I know there is a lot of controversy about the country of Cuba and human rights issues etc. So, if things were ideal and those issues did not exist, then those would be the circumstances that I would want you to ask the above questions under. 

Thanks so much!


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I know people who have gotten dogs from Cuba-not exactly directly though. Genetic tests have shown that American Havanese only share a possible 3 out of 78 chromosomes with the Cuban Habaneros. This didn't include dogs with bloodlines that have come into the Registry through other countries, like Canada, that no question have Cuban dogs in their Registries. 

AKC doesn't recognize Cuban dogs directly into their registry, but they do allow Havanese from other countries registries, so in a not so round-about way, they have allowed Cuban dogs into the AKC Registry. They found out a little after the fact that these other dogs had gotten in, and they was a little talk about disallowing them, but it didn't last long when they figured out the numbers that were already in.

Also, there have been some "dogs of type" allowed in by coming through other countries registries-like Hungary.

There probably are still shows in Cuba. Some people, mostly from Europe, like to get a Cuban Championship, so they send their dog to Cuba to be shown by some of the handlers there.

The people primarily responsible for saving the breed there, have now all, shall we say politely, moved elsewhere.

I personally know a fair number of Cuban dogs, and several people fairly well who are breeding them, but we choose not to. Their faces are different than ours with the eyes closer to the top of the skull, and their personalities are different.

This is enough for me to say about it.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I'd go to Cuba in a minute, though it would be because of my interest in aquatic plants, not dogs.:biggrin1:

I know that one of the Silk people did import a few Cuban dogs, but I don't know much about them other than that.


----------



## andra (Aug 23, 2010)

That is so good to know and very interesting. My inquiry was purely due to curiosity as I know basically nothing about the country of Cuba and their Havanese. Again I am a newbie and was intrigued about the article I read. It is interesting to hear that their personality is different, too.

I know there are shows because I found a few websites that showed pictures of them. But again, I am just a curious newbie and I thought I would ask 

Thanks so much for responding and indulging my curiousity LOL!


----------



## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

Ok Andra, I leave the Cuban Habaneros talk to Tom and other who know about it. I CAN however, tell you about Cuba.

I am originally from Cuba, lived there close to 20 yrs and then came to the USA (15 yrs ago). When I was in Cuba, I had NO IDEA that there were Havanese Dogs, let alone that they were Cuba's national dog. I only learned about them once I was here.

As for visiting Cuba, I would suggest you do if you have the chance. Cuba is a beautiful Country with Beautiful people, who unfortunately have lost their identity due to the regime and their lack or organization (but that is a touchy subject for me, so let's leave it at that!). Anyway, Cuba has an abundant history, starting from Old Havana (La Habana Vieja) all the way to Santiago de Cuba. There are wonderful places to visit and many of the hotels are fantastic.

If you ever decide to go, shoot me a PM, I can suggest a ton of places to visit!

PS: Most people ask, so I'll volunteer the info: Yes, I have been back in Cuba after I left. I took my husband there for our Honeymoon in 2002 and he absolutely loved it!


----------



## marlowe'sgirl (Jun 17, 2010)

Tom King said:


> Their faces are different than ours with the eyes closer to the top of the skull, and their personalities are different.


I'm really curious about the personality difference. Could you expand a little more on it? Havanese personality is the #1 reason I got my pup.


----------



## tootle (Jun 19, 2007)

I have a Havanese from a Cuban breeder that now lives in Mexico. He is registered with the AKC as they do recognize the Mexican registry. My dog is closely linebreed on the early Cuban lines and has some extraordinary features that I am anxious to incorporate into our breeding program. He is bigger than our Hav's but I feel that American Hav's are getting a little too frail. Although longer than a lot of American Hav's, his length does come from the rib which is not true of many Hav's now. The eyes are a beautiful almond shape with halos and don't tear stain!!!! The breeder said the shape and position of the eye prevents "poodle eye" I don't know about the personalities other than this boy cuddles with me and plays with other dogs but is not overly friendly with strangers. I would say his personality is more similar to my Hav's who's ancestors became silk dogs (or island whatever they are now) than my other lines. His best feature is a full coat with the best texture that I've ever seen and little matting. Like you, I was curious to see the differences. I was very pleased to find that his strengths were consistent with where we are seeking improvement in our breeding program. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...1338138688029.49998.1067970135&type=3&theater


----------



## Tuss (Apr 22, 2012)

I have been to Cuba many times (i live in Canada and it's one of the more popular Sun destinations). I never saw any Havanese like dogs there (but i didn't have one then and wasn't looking). I asked a Cuban friend about it and he had no idea about the breed (he moved to Canada 4 years ago).

Cuba is an amazing place to visit. It is tough to get around if you want to travel outside the regular tourist beat. Most tourists are shuttled to resorts on big tour buses and apart from government approved organzied tours which give you a sanitized view of the country you mostly just see your resort. It is possible to rent a car and explore, but they don't make it easy. Things have relaxed significantly in the past few years, so it might be better now.

I would love to go looking for Havanese dogs. I think the Cubans have bigger issues to deal with and dog shows/breeding are a luxury most can't afford.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

tootle said:


> I have a Havanese from a Cuban breeder that now lives in Mexico. He is registered with the AKC as they do recognize the Mexican registry. My dog is closely linebreed on the early Cuban lines and has some extraordinary features that I am anxious to incorporate into our breeding program. He is bigger than our Hav's but I feel that American Hav's are getting a little too frail. Although longer than a lot of American Hav's, his length does come from the rib which is not true of many Hav's now. The eyes are a beautiful almond shape with halos and don't tear stain!!!! The breeder said the shape and position of the eye prevents "poodle eye" I don't know about the personalities other than this boy cuddles with me and plays with other dogs but is not overly friendly with strangers. I would say his personality is more similar to my Hav's who's ancestors became silk dogs (or island whatever they are now) than my other lines. His best feature is a full coat with the best texture that I've ever seen and little matting. Like you, I was curious to see the differences. I was very pleased to find that his strengths were consistent with where we are seeking improvement in our breeding program. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...1338138688029.49998.1067970135&type=3&theater


He's beautiful! What is "poodle eye"?


----------



## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

EAnn, he is gorgeous! I love his color!


----------



## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

I'm not an expert on the subject, but my 2nd hand experience with Cuban dogs comes from my dog through her pedigree. I was researching her pedigree and trying to figure out why she has all these slight conformation faults and it seems to be coming down from the Cuban dog in her pedigree. Not her breeder, but the breeder that knows many of the latest dogs in her pedigree has tried working with Cuban lines and has called it "unstable" (I think the specific line she was working with, not the entire group of dogs). Also, I talked with a really well-known breeder/handler in my area and she pointed out that the breeder's Cuban stud dog was "no good". That's been my experience, but I agree with what has been said before that American Havanese are becoming kind of flimsy. I can see it in the legs, chest, and face. It is supposed to be robust, like a bichon, which is a totally different dog compared to my dog. 

Poodle eye refers to the shape of the eye, which is supposed to be almond. This is difficult to achieve in toy poodles because back in the day they mixed in Maltese to get the size down (I believe they have round eyes). This is where the toy poodles got their eyeset messed up because Maltese have more of a rounded, apple shaped head (this goes together, round head goes with round eyes, flatter head (less of a stop) goes with almond eyes, think standard poodle, sight hounds). It's also how Maltese got their coats messed up and some Maltese have these umbelieveably thick, curly coats. So the Havanese is actually unique in that the shape of the eye and shape of the head doesn't match. Havanese are supposed to have almond eyes and a relatively round head. I guess if you don't have the right facial structure, you could have more of a maltesey looking face and eye, which Maltese are extremely prone to eye tearing/draining problems.

So poodle eye, in my opinion, seems to refer to the toy poodle's incorrect round eye which, maybe is predisposed to have drainage problems because of the angles on the face, the skull is more upright, the stop more angled, shorter noses.


----------



## windfallhavs (Oct 19, 2006)

I have heard similiar things about the cuban dogs, many conformation faults. I had friends in Canada who did import directly from Cuba and they removed the cuban dogs from their program, did not like what they were getting. That is not to say that they do not have something to offer, however, and I do like to keep an open mind when it comes to new lines...so it will be interesting to see how E.Ann's puppy turns out and what qualities he gives to his babies.


----------



## windfallhavs (Oct 19, 2006)

And I do also agree that we are losing some of the bone and substance. When I was at the World Show last year, that was one of the big things that I noticed...the European havanese that I went over had nice bone and body to them. I know that I have spoken to numerous toy judges who think that because havs are in the toy group they should be small (which I do not 100% agree with, but that is another topic for another day)...but even a smaller havanese should have substance...there should be a sturdy dog under that beautiful coat!


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

windfallhavs said:


> And I do also agree that we are losing some of the bone and substance. When I was at the World Show last year, that was one of the big things that I noticed...the European havanese that I went over had nice bone and body to them. I know that I have spoken to numerous toy judges who think that because havs are in the toy group they should be small (which I do not 100% agree with, but that is another topic for another day)...but even a smaller havanese should have substance...there should be a sturdy dog under that beautiful coat!


I'm glad to hear you say that. Kodi is just BARELY within standard for height, and I know that puts him out of the "preferred" size range. (although both of his parents are dead in the middle of that preferred range) But I love his substance. And he looks GIGANTIC next to most of Havs doing well in the show ring around here.


----------



## andra (Aug 23, 2010)

arty: WOW! That is so neat that some of you have been to Cuba. Since I am on the East Coast, it is not too far away and the article really opened up the idea of travel to Cuba as a real possibility. I would love to hear more (hint hint) with photos (hint hint). 

I am not a breeder or involved in showing but I did enjoy reading about that perspective from our forum members, too. I, too, am curious about temperment differences.

:biggrin1:andra


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I think too much is being made over my comment about their personality differences. The ones whose temperament was not to my ideal, could have been developed bytheir environment growing up. Since they didn't have access to flea and tick preventatives in Cuba, other than the ones Cuban Relief sent-when that was in effect, those dogs spent the majority of their lives in one home.

Their DNA was just too different from our dogs for us to consider bringing any in. We have been awfully lucky, and are not looking for any great change in genetic diversity. Getting a larger genetic diversity is only a good thing when you don't know what you have, or need to make some major changes. We are to the point that we are bringing in an outside female, since we are heavily weighted towards our stud dogs now, but the Cubans are just too different genetically. 

Posh has been bred to some Cubans, and the puppies have been pretty remarkable according to the breeder, but we are most comfortable with someone else doing that who needs to go in a different direction. We are not making any really big changes even with the female we are bringing in.


----------



## sashamom (Jan 12, 2009)

krandall said:


> I'm glad to hear you say that. Kodi is just BARELY within standard for height, and I know that puts him out of the "preferred" size range. (although both of his parents are dead in the middle of that preferred range) But I love his substance. And he looks GIGANTIC next to most of Havs doing well in the show ring around here.


Rango is my 7 month old puppy and he seems big compared to some on the forum. He is much bigger than Sasha. He weighs 14.40lbs some is still chubby puppy body. LOL I have cut back on his food and his treats.


----------



## marlowe'sgirl (Jun 17, 2010)

sashamom said:


> Rango is my 7 month old puppy and he seems big compared to some on the forum. He is much bigger than Sasha. He weighs 14.40lbs some is still chubby puppy body. LOL I have cut back on his food and his treats.


I love my big 15.5 Hav ! He was 9 lbs at 4.5 months; 12 at 6 mo, 15 by 1 yr. The 4 lbs he has on my cat is the only thing that keeps the playtime wrestling fair. I never wanted a small dainty delicate dog. I'm lucky I found a Hav that sits on the upper end of the spectrum. If it was up to me, I'd like to see Havs regularly 15-20 lbs - but that's a personal preference and often outside stds/show ring prefs.


----------



## misstray (Feb 6, 2011)

windfallhavs said:


> And I do also agree that we are losing some of the bone and substance. When I was at the World Show last year, that was one of the big things that I noticed...the European havanese that I went over had nice bone and body to them. I know that I have spoken to numerous toy judges who think that because havs are in the toy group they should be small (which I do not 100% agree with, but that is another topic for another day)...but even a smaller havanese should have substance...there should be a sturdy dog under that beautiful coat!


One of the reasons I chose the Havanese was because they were sturdy for a little dog. My parents have had both a Bichon and a Maltese. I love(d) them both, but didn't want a pure white dog and wanted a dog more sturdy than the Maltese. Brody isn't as sturdy as their Bichon was, but he may still fill out a bit. I do think Brody has a little bit finer bone structure than the Bichon did though. He's still under 12 pounds, but he isn't delicate by any means.


----------



## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

tootle said:


> I have a Havanese from a Cuban breeder that now lives in Mexico. He is registered with the AKC as they do recognize the Mexican registry. My dog is closely linebreed on the early Cuban lines and has some extraordinary features that I am anxious to incorporate into our breeding program. He is bigger than our Hav's but I feel that American Hav's are getting a little too frail. Although longer than a lot of American Hav's, his length does come from the rib which is not true of many Hav's now. The eyes are a beautiful almond shape with halos and don't tear stain!!!! The breeder said the shape and position of the eye prevents "poodle eye" I don't know about the personalities other than this boy cuddles with me and plays with other dogs but is not overly friendly with strangers. I would say his personality is more similar to my Hav's who's ancestors became silk dogs (or island whatever they are now) than my other lines. His best feature is a full coat with the best texture that I've ever seen and little matting. Like you, I was curious to see the differences. I was very pleased to find that his strengths were consistent with where we are seeking improvement in our breeding program. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...1338138688029.49998.1067970135&type=3&theater


 That is interesting He is a good looking Havanese. So did he come with paper work. And if so can you trace back very many generations? I would love to see more pictures of the Cuban Havanese. Is he still too young to breed and did his lines come with health testing? I think what your doing sounds like fun.


----------



## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

I get so side tracked I wanted to find a picture of the Expocannia 1993 Havana cuba show and instead found an interesting read . It had information I hadn't read before . Any way I have no idea who wrote it and where the information came from. But are they saying that the Cuban havanese are part poodle? groomingcenter.blogspot.com/2011/08/bichon-havanese.html I don't know why the link isn't coming up


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Of the Cuban dogs whose DNA was checked, there was no Poodle, even Brazilian Poodle. They looked specifically because of some version of history. In fact, there was little if any of anything else, like found in almost any breeds we know. Any history is dependant on the person writing it.


----------



## rokipiki (Oct 15, 2010)

Bichon frisee (white bichon) should have much more delicate bones than bichon havanais (havanese). I am the member of Bichon Club (gets together all bichon group breeds like havanese, bichon frisee, little lion dog, maltese, bolognese) in Croatian Kennel Club and each time we meet we discuss a lot of things about our breeds and how to improve them. In November we also organize special Bichon Show and people from all over Europe come to show their dogs.
Right now I am doing research about Roki's ancestors. I went like twelve to thirteen generations back and I have found really interesting stuff. First I followed pedigre od one of most famous european havs Mucho Bravo Wild Willy who is Roki's ancestor (Roki looks sooo much like him). Well, his dad is Dorothy's Goodale pup that came to Europe more than 20 years ago. then you have all kinds of havs, a lot of them from Cuba. I am still trying to put the whole picture together. I will inform you about the results, but even now I can tell you that Roki might be distant relative of some of your dogs. It is veeery exciting!
Marina&Roki


----------



## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

rokipiki said:


> Bichon frisee (white bichon) should have much more delicate bones than bichon havanais (havanese). I am the member of Bichon Club (gets together all bichon group breeds like havanese, bichon frisee, little lion dog, maltese, bolognese) in Croatian Kennel Club and each time we meet we discuss a lot of things about our breeds and how to improve them. In November we also organize special Bichon Show and people from all over Europe come to show their dogs.
> Right now I am doing research about Roki's ancestors. I went like twelve to thirteen generations back and I have found really interesting stuff. First I followed pedigre od one of most famous european havs Mucho Bravo Wild Willy who is Roki's ancestor (Roki looks sooo much like him). Well, his dad is Dorothy's Goodale pup that came to Europe more than 20 years ago. then you have all kinds of havs, a lot of them from Cuba. I am still trying to put the whole picture together. I will inform you about the results, but even now I can tell you that Roki might be distant relative of some of your dogs. It is veeery exciting!
> Marina&Roki


 Ive been doing the same thing. It's fun to go to the havanese gallery and see pictures. Zoey's pedagree is fun because her father came from Hungary. I found it very interesting how many pillow talk Havanese were Dorothy's stock. And I love pillow talks red colors. Zoe has a lot of the original ones that had Spanish names cant remember them right now I'm thinking Don juallo?


----------



## rokipiki (Oct 15, 2010)

Friend from Bichon Club (she's havanese breeder) bought Pillowtalk Kiss of Fire, gorgeous red boy. What's Zoey's father name (kennel)? Roki's mum and dad are form Hungary as well! Maybe we have cousins here?

Marina&Roki


----------



## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

I don't understand about the Cuban dogs. If they are the true Havanese, then the ones we have are something else. All the articles I read about them being brought back from near extinction is just fiction then.


----------



## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

I don't understand about the Cuban dogs. If they are the true Havanese, then the ones we have are something else. All the articles I read about them being brought back from near extinction is just fiction then.
I don't think it's fiction. I would ask the question with all the DNA testing what were the three matching chromosomes? And who is to say the Cuban dog used is a true example of the same havanese Dorthey bought. Does the DNA show what the American Havenese today is made up of? Where can one find the answer to that question?


----------



## marlowe'sgirl (Jun 17, 2010)

Suzi said:


> I don't understand about the Cuban dogs. If they are the true Havanese, then the ones we have are something else. All the articles I read about them being brought back from near extinction is just fiction then.
> I don't think it's fiction. I would ask the question with all the DNA testing what were the three matching chromosomes? And who is to say the Cuban dog used is a true example of the same havanese Dorthey bought. Does the DNA show what the American Havenese today is made up of? Where can one find the answer to that question?


To be fair, a dog breed is not a true scientific classification. All dogs are the same species and can interbreed. All that truly defines a breed are the official breed standards and judges interpretation of them. Preferences in the show ring can highly alter a given breed over the course of a few decades (take a look at german shepard dogs). The AKC 'officially' decides when a new breed is different enough from an old breed (and breeds true - ie 2 labradoodles do not make more labradoodles, therefore not a breed) to merit discrete classification. Creating a new breed and getting accepted by the AKC is a decades long process.

DNA testing is not widespread and I'm wary of the veracity of DNA testing to be able to classify dogs at this point in time. In humans, just by looking at DNA, we can't tell if a person skin's color is black or white or somewhere in between. Science is not that advanced. Modern science has been able to identify some genes that cause some diseases, and hence make it easier to breed it out of particular lines. But even this use isn't widespread. Plus DNA isn't the end all and be all. Take a look at some of the cloned cats. They cloned a calico and the marking in its clone are very very different because it's not hard written in its DNA (it's X-chromosome inactivation for those that are curious).


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

marlowe'sgirl said:


> To be fair, a dog breed is not a true scientific classification. All dogs are the same species and can interbreed. All that truly defines a breed are the official breed standards and judges interpretation of them. Preferences in the show ring can highly alter a given breed over the course of a few decades (take a look at german shepard dogs). The AKC 'officially' decides when a new breed is different enough from an old breed (and breeds true - ie 2 labradoodles do not make more labradoodles, therefore not a breed) to merit discrete classification. Creating a new breed and getting accepted by the AKC is a decades long process.


Just wanted to point out that there are two kinds of Labradoodles... The F1 crosses (Poodle to Lab) that are the "designer dog" type, and don't breed true, and the Australian Labradoodles that are very well established, and have been bred Labradoodle to Labradoodle for a number of generations. They produce a very distinct and set type of dog. The good Australian Labradoodle breeders do all the types of testing on their stock that you would expect of a reputable AKC breeder.

Also wanted to point out that some breeds hold out for a long time, not WANTING to become an AKC breed because of what the show ring can do to the breed. This is particularly true in working dog lines. I was involved with Border Collies well before they were an AKC breed and a large contingent of the breeders in those early days wanted no part of AKC. They wanted herding dogs, not show ring dogs. My understanding is that there is the same dissent in the Coton ranks... Some people want it to be an AKC breed, while others are afraid of what it will do to the breed.


----------



## Tuss (Apr 22, 2012)

krandall said:


> Just wanted to point out that there are two kinds of Labradoodles... The F1 crosses (Poodle to Lab) that are the "designer dog" type, and don't breed true, and the Australian Labradoodles that are very well established, and have been bred Labradoodle to Labradoodle for a number of generations. They produce a very distinct and set type of dog. The good Australian Labradoodle breeders do all the types of testing on their stock that you would expect of a reputable AKC breeder.
> 
> Also wanted to point out that some breeds hold out for a long time, not WANTING to become an AKC breed because of what the show ring can do to the breed. This is particularly true in working dog lines. I was involved with Border Collies well before they were an AKC breed and a large contingent of the breeders in those early days wanted no part of AKC. They wanted herding dogs, not show ring dogs. My understanding is that there is the same dissent in the Coton ranks... Some people want it to be an AKC breed, while others are afraid of what it will do to the breed.


Thanks, My labradoodle also thanks you. She is 8th generation labradoodle, both parents were extensively tested for genetic diseases and bred more ethically than many recognized purebreds from established breeders. She is also my Havanese's best friend!


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I see her peeking over your Hav's shoulder... Cute!


----------



## Tuss (Apr 22, 2012)

krandall said:


> I see her peeking over your Hav's shoulder... Cute!


Here are some better photos of my girls: Ruby and Gemma.


----------



## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

rokipiki said:


> Friend from Bichon Club (she's havanese breeder) bought Pillowtalk Kiss of Fire, gorgeous red boy. What's Zoey's father name (kennel)? Roki's mum and dad are form Hungary as well! Maybe we have cousins here?
> 
> Marina&Roki


 Little Zoe's Has both European and American lines in her pedigree. The kennel her father came from is Kebic's Her fathers father was Sire: Kebic"s Mauritz and Dam: Kebic's Bittan And her fathers Mother's mother was Kebic's Vera Sire: K&H's Tigger at Kebic's . Any way I found a lot listed in the Havanese gallery and by going to Kebic"s web site. The ones that have CH are Lynyear's get of of my cloud and CH Lynyears Lighting strikes . I think I could only find about one or two that went to a Cuban name. I should have taken notes because it took me a long time. I did copy a picture of my favorite Havanese I have no idea the name I think it is her Great Grand mother?


----------



## marlowe'sgirl (Jun 17, 2010)

Tuss said:


> Thanks, My labradoodle also thanks you. She is 8th generation labradoodle, both parents were extensively tested for genetic diseases and bred more ethically than many recognized purebreds from established breeders. She is also my Havanese's best friend!


Good points, all! Sorry, I had forgotten about the Australian Labradoodles!

I just remember a 'labradoodle' that was in our agility class, and you would have been hard pressed to distinguish him from a regular lab. It was definitely a designer dog backyard breeding experiment that did not go as expected.


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I posted this on the wrong thread, and copied and pasted it here. I think this was the proper thread for it, but parts of it may apply to both threads.

It never was a secret. Anja (Charly's breeder) told people Karila was Bolonka way back then. She'll still tell you that today. Bolonka means "lap dog" in the Slavic languages, just like Bichon in the Romance languages. Some countries' Registries (like Hungary) allowed "dogs of type" into their Havanees Registry, and then their Registry was accepted by AKC into theirs. Sort of like the way Cuban dogs came in through other countries like Canada.

Karila is one of the most beautiful Havanese there has been. She was definately a "dog of type"- possibly the closest to the Cuban dogs and the original Havanese Standard as there was up to that time. Before Charly, and I would guess through Karila, there was no such thing as length of neck or layback like the Cuban dogs have. Karila had a wonderful coat, and great pigment too. You may be able to see her picture on the Havanese Gallery. I may have spelled her name incorrectly-I'm not looking this up as I type it.

We first bred to Charly something like 12 years ago. He was the only one we could go to, to get what we were looking for. I wouldn't change a thing.

A lot of questions have been brought up in this thread, and I haven't really kept up with them. 

The Silk dog folks were the ones who paid to have the DNA testing done. Some wanted to bring in some Cuban dogs, so their DNA had to be collected. At the time there was a genetic diverstiy study going on too. This was over 3 years ago, and without looking it up, this is by memory. The Cuban dogs only showed the possibilty of sharing 3 out of 78 chromosomes with the American Havanese. 

There is indeed a genetic test to identify Havanese. The genetic diversity study showed that something like as few as 100 Havanese had a genetic diversity of over 4.7. Some purebreds show as little as 2.2. The most any other breed at the time had shown was 4.4. 

Once they found out that the American Havanese really weren't related to the Cuban dogs, they asked to do the breed test on the Havanese DNA. It showed no relation to Bichon Friese, as some versions of history has stated, but there was shared DNA with several other breeds like Maltese, Cresteds, and even Dachshund. Turned out the Cuban dogs weren't related to any other breed. The testers stated that the Cuban dogs were probably a very old breed. Some others in the mix, but I just going by 3 year old memory here.

To look at just the facts, the total basis that we have to say that Havanese are descendants of Cuban dogs, is that one person told us so.

Regardless of how we got where we are, I'm very happy with the results. I stopped telling people our dogs originated in Cuba a good while back.

One thing we have found about breeding to the Cuban dogs, is that if you breed a curly carrier to one, you will end up with a really thick, bushy coat. Our experience shows that curly and drop coat combinations are not an either/or situation, but that even having one curly can modify the drop coat in various ways or not. 

Some people say that DNA testing is not any good because their dog looks like a Bassett hound, and the test says there is Italian Greyhound in the mix. Very few of the genes determine what the dog will look like, and even fewer determine the size. Personally, we have 6 generations of DNA on record, and we can look at every chart and see how it goes down the line. The whole breed is only something like 12 generations deep, and I would expect that you could see the progression all the way back.

Perhaps even if there is not IG in the Bassett looking mix, they could still share an ancestor WAY back.

Others have said that researchers were looking at DNA and found out they didn't really know what they were looking at. This is a true statement, if you look at cancer research. Henrietta Laks cancer DNA was so prolific, that it took over other cancer cells in dishes through the air. This caused a few decades of useless research unless they found this out. That's a good book by the way.

The whole canine genome has been mapped for several years now. They know what is where. If you are looking for something specific in looks that there is not a test for, if you come up with a few hundred thousand dollars, someone would be able to find it. If someone wanted to come up with a skin color DNA test for humans, I don't think it would be much trouble at all if you are willing to spend the money to fund the study-otherwise, I don't think it's of much use and the reason there is not one available is that it hasn't been worth it to anyone to do it.

In spite of setbacks in DNA research during our lifetime so far, advances being made now are just astounding. It is not useless information.


----------



## tootle (Jun 19, 2007)

Not trying to be ugly, but just a little confused on the logic. A decision was made not to bring Cuban Havanese into the Silk Dog breeding program but it was acceptable to bring in the genes of a red poodle? I hope you aren't heading that direction!!!


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

No decision was ever even considered to bring Poodles into the Silk registry. I think they did allow Cuban dogs into the Silk Registry-I never even tried to keep up with the details, because we weren't interested in bringing in a Cuban dog. I merely stated that the Cuban dogs DNA was different than Havanese DNA. How did it get twisted around so much, so quickly?

We never bought into the separate breed part. Our dogs will continue to be registered as Havanese. 

We joined the Original Havanese Club back in the '90s as well as the HCA. It bothered us that all the money was stolen out of the treasury to start another club, but we wanted to keep up with what was going on. It didn't mean we aggreed with everything that every member of either group said or did.

My comments in my post had absolutely nothing to do with bringing poodles into anything.

Everyone would be best to look at facts as facts, and not try to read something into anything based on assumptions.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

Little Zoe is darling, love those ears!!!


----------



## tootle (Jun 19, 2007)

You implied that all Cuban Havanese are a different breed than the American Havanese based upon DNA samples collected by the Silk Dog folks. If this testing was done by the Silk Dog leader who has now decided that it's a good idea to breed Havanese to poodles, I do question this testing and the results that you stated.


----------



## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Tom, Is anyone working on bringing back the true Cuban Havanese? I think I read that todays Havanese their is being changed? Where did they find the Cuban Havanese that was used for the testing? I think that is very interesting that the DNA showed them to be a very old breed and the silk club was able to locate and test dogs that were still around. You stated : Turned out the Cuban dogs weren't related to any other breed. Does that mean they were like one of the first dogs? I have so many questions I cant remember names but is the man who sold Dorthy some of her first Havanese still alive? And the other family here in America? has anyone ever interviewed them?


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

tootle said:


> You implied that all Cuban Havanese are a different breed than the American Havanese based upon DNA samples collected by the Silk Dog folks. If this testing was done by the Silk Dog leader who has now decided that it's a good idea to breed Havanese to poodles, I do question this testing and the results that you stated.


Your avatar is lovely...


----------



## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

tootle said:


> You implied that all Cuban Havanese are a different breed than the American Havanese based upon DNA samples collected by the Silk Dog folks. If this testing was done by the Silk Dog leader who has now decided that it's a good idea to breed Havanese to poodles, I do question this testing and the results that you stated.


 I would assume that it is documented somewhere. I'm new to the Havanese world and don't want to offend anyone but I think all this is interesting. I don't understand 4.4 and such it is sort of like how man evolved its the evaluation of todays Havanese. History and science. I guess for the folks that don't want to at least believe in the possibility this is true they could have their own DNA testing done. I wouldn't get upset with Tom he is just stating facts he believes in. He is also stating that he is breeding American Havanese. His breeding program is very studied and I'm sure yours is too. I would like to see someone start all over again and try for a true Cuban Havanese even if they aren't as nice to groom and have curley hair or what ever they look like. I think its worth preserving that very old breed.eace:


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

I don't know what the Cuban dog looked like but would love to see someone bring back that dog if it would be possible also Suzi. 
I am surprised no one has done that yet.


----------



## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> Little Zoe is darling, love those ears!!!


 Thats not Zoe its i think her great great grand mother I need to go back in my research and find out who she is . I love her ears too.


----------



## tootle (Jun 19, 2007)

I'm not having any DNA research done , but thought some of you might be interested in seeing some pictures of the Cuban Havanese in Chan's pedigree I put in my Gallery. I think they look very similar to our American Hav's in may ways. Wonder if someone showed us these pictures without an explanation would we recognize them as Havanese? My interest in the Cubans led me to purchase a pup from these lines. No idea what the future holds as far as including him in our breeding program. But, that matters not since he's my sweetheart either way! http://www.havaneseforum.com/album.php?albumid=573


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Suzi said:


> I would assume that it is documented somewhere. I'm new to the Havanese world and don't want to offend anyone but I think all this is interesting. I don't understand 4.4 and such it is sort of like how man evolved its the evaluation of todays Havanese. History and science. I guess for the folks that don't want to at least believe in the possibility this is true they could have their own DNA testing done. I wouldn't get upset with Tom he is just stating facts he believes in. He is also stating that he is breeding American Havanese. His breeding program is very studied and I'm sure yours is too. I would like to see someone start all over again and try for a true Cuban Havanese even if they aren't as nice to groom and have curley hair or what ever they look like. I think its worth preserving that very old breed.eace:


There are actually a right fair number of Cuban dogs in this country now. They do look very similar to some of our Havanese, but with lots of angulation, crosier tail, and I've never seen one with a curly coat. The 4.4 number refers to the average number of chromosomes for each of the 78 locations. It's stated as "gene available per locus", but they are really counting different chromosomes. My statements are not based on beliefs, but scientific facts as they are presented. DNA testing was done by the most respected lab doing that sort of thing now. Dog owners sent in the DNA. No one person has enough influence, to make the testing invalid. It's actually a pretty simple thing to do these days as genetics go. We have DNA on all our dogs. It's pretty cool to be able to look at it and see the transfer from one generation to the other.

The winner of the last Silk Dog show was, I think, either 1/2 or 3/4 Cuban. You should be able to find that picture somewhere. For us personally, we don't want to go that far away from what we are producing. It would amount to cross breeding, and we are not interested in doing that. Going after simply more genetic diversity (than more than enough) is only a desirable thing if the breeder needs to make a big change, has had some problem pop up that they need to get away from, or even go in a different direction. We have no need or desire to do any of that.

None of this has been kept secret. In fact, it was all published something over 3 years ago.

No one needs to start over. The Cuban dogs have been there all along. The thick, curly coats did not come from them. A few people went to great effort to preserve them.


----------



## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

This thread got to deep for my shallow mind. All I care about is that I hope Rosie lives to be very old and goes to the nursing home with me. Whatever she is, she is the best dog I have ever had.


----------



## mamacjt (Aug 23, 2011)

I have been a member of the Bichon Frise Club of America, Inc. since 1984. When I joined, the bichons being shown in conformation ran the gambit from long and low to high on leg and square. From frail in bone to course. The grooming was very different from area to area too. Not much was consistent then except the desire for championship status. Now, though, if you see them in the ring, it's hard to tell one from the next unless you have your hands on them. I showed Bichons.....and owned a few during those years and now I have one neutered Hav only! I must say that my Hav is finer boned than any of the bichons I ever owned. He's also smaller,weighs less, is sweeter and more wonderful than any of my bichons! ('Course, I never owned a boy before.) 

From my long experience with bichons, I bet that the Havanese will also evolve within the next 30 years into a breed that will be pleasing to all, yet retain it's own personalized style and flair. Just so it never loses playful nature! What would we do without the antics of this marvelous breed?


----------



## marlowe'sgirl (Jun 17, 2010)

Tom King said:


> There are actually a right fair number of Cuban dogs in this country now. They do look very similar to some of our Havanese, but with lots of angulation, crosier tail, and I've never seen one with a curly coat. The 4.4 number refers to the average number of chromosomes for each of the 78 locations. It's stated as "gene available per locus", but they are really counting different chromosomes. My statements are not based on beliefs, but scientific facts as they are presented. DNA testing was done by the most respected lab doing that sort of thing now. Dog owners sent in the DNA. No one person has enough influence, to make the testing invalid. It's actually a pretty simple thing to do these days as genetics go. We have DNA on all our dogs. It's pretty cool to be able to look at it and see the transfer from one generation to the other.


As someone who knows a lot about genetics/science (though admittedly little about it in relation to dog breeding), could you provide more information about these genetic tests? A link to who's providing the test or a peer-reviewed publication that asserts its validity? I can see getting a basic overview results like what they do for paternal testing, looking at STR alleles or some random SNPs (single nucleotide polymorphisms at specific loci) and comparing the inheritance pattern. But the idea that these SNPs are unquestionable, statistically proven 'Havanese'-specific, I just don't quite believe - mostly because I've only heard about it from breeders sporadically and never read any of the science myself. I'm genuinely curious.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tom King said:


> It never was a secret. Anja (Charly's breeder) told people Karila was Bolonka way back then. She'll still tell you that today. Bolonka means "lap dog" in the Slavic languages, just like Bichon in the Romance languages. Some countries' Registries (like Hungary) allowed "dogs of type" into their Havanees Registry, and then their Registry was accepted by AKC into theirs. Sort of like the way Cuban dogs came in through other countries like Canada.


Who is Karila? Was that Charly's dam? And as far as "Bolonka" is concerned, is this a general purpose word, the way "Bichon" is used in Europe talking about a whole group of dogs? I thought they were specifically talking about the Russian Tsvetnaya Bolonka, and as I mentioned previously, Charly certainly did not look like those dogs.

So this seems to be a situation like with the Polish "Arabs", where there have been other breeds bred in to produce larger (and hopefully still typey) Arabian-type horses. Many years ago, a top Polish breeder was visiting a friend of mine, a preservation Arab breeder in Illinois. My friend took this fellow to a show, where they saw a beautiful horse in the ring. The Polish fellow was waxing poetic over this beautiful "Arab". My friend explained that it was actually an Ango-Arabian, and 3/4 TB. The fellow told my friend, "In my country we would MAKE him an Arabian!"

Very interesting to hear that some European countries use this same method of producing dogs as they do horses. (or at least they did at one time) Of course, there are pros and cons. It can certainly infuse new genetic material into the lines, but the results can be unpredictable. Salemi Charly must have been pretty reliable in terms of producing good quality offspring, or so many people wouldn't have used him.



Tom King said:


> There is indeed a genetic test to identify Havanese. The genetic diversity study showed that something like as few as 100 Havanese had a genetic diversity of over 4.7. Some purebreds show as little as 2.2. The most any other breed at the time had shown was 4.4.


So why are the "pet" DNA tests so unreliable? Do they not have access to this same DNA information? Or are they just not careful? (I know you may not know the answer to that one!)



Tom King said:


> Once they found out that the American Havanese really weren't related to the Cuban dogs, they asked to do the breed test on the Havanese DNA. It showed no relation to Bichon Friese, as some versions of history has stated, but there was shared DNA with several other breeds like Maltese, Cresteds, and even Dachshund. Turned out the Cuban dogs weren't related to any other breed. The testers stated that the Cuban dogs were probably a very old breed. Some others in the mix, but I just going by 3 year old memory here.
> 
> To look at just the facts, the total basis that we have to say that Havanese are descendants of Cuban dogs, is that one person told us so.
> 
> Regardless of how we got where we are, I'm very happy with the results. I stopped telling people our dogs originated in Cuba a good while back.


I suppose it's not surprising that American Havanese are such a mix. Dorothy Goodale collected a group of dogs just based on looks and people's "say so". She had no way of verifying DNA at that point in time. ...And MOST breeds were originally developed by infusing genes of different dogs until the desired type was obtained and fixed.



Tom King said:


> Our experience shows that curly and drop coat combinations are not an either/or situation, but that even having one curly can modify the drop coat in various ways or not.


That is why I find it hard to believe that the Minidoodle people can predict that all their F1 puppies will have silky, flat coats.

Thanks for taking the time to post all this information, Tom. It's really helpful!


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

Agreed, thank you Tom. It is very refreshing to read some of this. I would love to see a Cuban (at a show, etc.)..but even photos will help. Problem is so many say their Havs are the original Havs from Cuba...especially some breeders in the Florida areas who say they brought theirs over from Cuba and breed to other who have done the same...anyone have any experience purchasing a puppy from these Florida breeders?


----------



## Carefulove (Mar 20, 2009)

Luciledodd said:


> This thread got to deep for my shallow mind. All I care about is that I hope Rosie lives to be very old and goes to the nursing home with me. Whatever she is, she is the best dog I have ever had.


Amen to that! ound:


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

Luciledodd said:


> This thread got to deep for my shallow mind. All I care about is that I hope Rosie lives to be very old and goes to the nursing home with me. Whatever she is, she is the best dog I have ever had.


Me too Lucile!!!


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Flynn Gentry-Taylor said:


> Agreed, thank you Tom. It is very refreshing to read some of this. I would love to see a Cuban (at a show, etc.)..but even photos will help. Problem is so many say their Havs are the original Havs from Cuba...especially some breeders in the Florida areas who say they brought theirs over from Cuba and breed to other who have done the same...anyone have any experience purchasing a puppy from these Florida breeders?


Most of the 100% Cuban dogs I know are living in Florida. No website or advertising anywhere. PM me if you'd like information on any particular one you find.


----------



## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

In an effort to answer some of the questions.....I'm busy right now, but I grabbed these links to discuss later, so I'll copy and paste them for now. I'll edit later.

http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/CatandDogDNATyping.php

http://www.akc.org/dna/


----------



## tootle (Jun 19, 2007)

"Genetic tests have shown that American Havanese only share a possible 3 out of 78 chromosomes with the Cuban Habaneros."
Tom, since you have made this statement, it would be great to know the names and pedigrees of the Cuban Habaneros that were tested. 

I agree that the Cubans would be a total outcross with your dogs but there are other Havanese in America that share common ancestors. Like you, I don't frequently consider an unrelated dog in my breeding plan. Although, there are a multitude of factors considered in making the decision to breed, I would not rule my dog out of the Havanese breeding program because of your statement that they are a different breed. It's every breeder's duty to do what they consider the best in preserving this precious breed.


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

Tom King said:


> Most of the 100% Cuban dogs I know are living in Florida. No website or advertising anywhere. PM me if you'd like information on any particular one you find.


Thanks will do. I don't think I will be getting one, was just curious as to the claims and also would love to see the difference..thanks Tom!


----------



## andra (Aug 23, 2010)

I would love to see their photos amrileb7.

This has been a very interesting thread--when I posted the original inquiry, I never would have imagined such a thorough response. My inquiry was purely from a curiosity perspective as I am not a breeder nor plan to be (I have the utmost respect for the breeders here, though). I think it is fascinating that some of the members here have traveled or lived in Cuba and also that a few have Havaneses from there.

And yes, I agree with the sentiment of: "All I care about is that I hope Rosie lives to be very old and goes to the nursing home with me. Whatever she is, she is the best dog I have ever had" as I feel the same way about Dionna  I love her so much!


----------



## Becky Chittenden (Feb 4, 2009)

I had not noticed this post until now. I have a few comments, not any meaning to be contrary.
My first Hav is a double Charly grandaughter, who has.what most, would consider a curly coat. I know it comes from both sides of her pedigree (told to me by the owners of the ones who had the curly gene), but was also told Charly "fixed" that. I bred her back to Charly and had 2 pups, both had proper hair, but one was insize (barely) and really long and huge bone; the other undershot and wry mouthed. The perfect breeding didn't happen. He was a great sire, but not for my dog. Oh, all my dogs come down from him.
Next, I think, occasionally, one needs to breed out, ideally to a dog that also has a closely bred pedigree (though not your own). If one finds the same fault cropping up and that other line doesn't appear to come up, try it. I did this on my last breeding and happy with the results.
Lastly, I've seen Tootle's dog and if his personality develops, and I think it will, he could be one of the better dogs being shown today.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Becky Chittenden said:


> I had not noticed this post until now. I have a few comments, not any meaning to be contrary.
> My first Hav is a double Charly grandaughter, who has.what most, would consider a curly coat. I know it comes from both sides of her pedigree (told to me by the owners of the ones who had the curly gene), but was also told Charly "fixed" that. I bred her back to Charly and had 2 pups, both had proper hair, but one was insize (barely) and really long and huge bone


I've mentioned before that Kodi is on the large side and big boned. I know that Tom said at one point that it probably came from his grandfather. I don't remember if Tom told me which one, but Charly is in Kodi's pedigree several times. I wonder if that is where his size came from. OTOH, Kodi has a lovely silky coat with enough undercoat to give it some body, but with just a nice wave. No curls.

But I also think Kodi is a bit of an anomaly among Pam and Tom's dogs. I don't think it is common for them to get big ones like Kodi. Posh, Kodi's sire, is a Charly son, and CERTAINLY not big like Kodi. If I remember right, I think Tom told me Posh is about 11 lbs.


----------



## Becky Chittenden (Feb 4, 2009)

Posh is a lovely dog, I saw him do his "big win" and it was well deserved. I wasn' putting down Tom and Pam's breeding program, think it is good, just pointing out that the "perfect" breeding doesn't always pan out


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Becky Chittenden said:


> Posh is a lovely dog, I saw him do his "big win" and it was well deserved. I wasn' putting down Tom and Pam's breeding program, think it is good, just pointing out that the "perfect" breeding doesn't always pan out


Oh, I know that, Becky. I was just interested to hear about your big puppy from a Charly breeding, and wondering if that's where Kodi's size came from. I don't mind his size at all. I wasn't looking for a conformation show dog, and his size doesn't get in the way of his athletic ability at all.


----------



## Becky Chittenden (Feb 4, 2009)

Charly isn't (wasn't?) a large or a tiny dog. My theory: because individual breeds are made up of several other breeds originally, you get variations every so often, thus a large or small puppy in a litter where the others are normal.
My experience with dogs has been with shelties, who, like the Havanese. have in their standard disqualifying range of 3 inches in height. In shelties you will fiind more too big than too small. I've, in over 30 years, only bred 2 that were too small and numerous that were too big. In the conformation ring, the upper end of the standard size sheltie wins more often, easier to "find". Also the tiny ones have heart problems occasionally (fortunately my 2 didn't). There are a few dogs that are "size control" sires, but none 100%.
The one thing I do like about the Hav size, bigger is less prominantly "better" and the lower end of the standard can and does it's fair share.
I think you dog's height might have come from one dog, but probably many behind him.


----------



## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

amrileb7 said:


> I got two female puppies from Cuba in February,one is white with cream markings and the other is sable.they are 5+ months now.I have to download here somo pics of them.


 can you tell us your story? How did you find them did you actually go to Cuba?
I'm waiting for the pictures


----------



## tootle (Jun 19, 2007)

A pic of my Cuban babe Chan Chan getting very bored with his grooming tonight.http://www.havaneseforum.com/album.php?albumid=573&pictureid=3431


----------



## tootle (Jun 19, 2007)

http://www.havaneseforum.com/album.php?albumid=573&pictureid=3432

But so worth it


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

tootle said:


> http://www.havaneseforum.com/album.php?albumid=573&pictureid=3432
> 
> But so worth it


I notice Chan Chan has no eye staining..wonderful!!! Love your photos.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

tootle said:


> http://www.havaneseforum.com/album.php?albumid=573&pictureid=3432
> 
> But so worth it


Cute!


----------



## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Thanks for sharing  Chan Chan is beautiful. Your photo album is what I have been trying to find on the internet did Chan Chan's breeder send you the photos? I wounder if Cuban havanese come in as many colors? I noticed the coats seem thicker and in your opinion are the mussels and head larger?.
amrileb7 Thank you for sharing your story I bet it was hard to leave your baby when you left. Thats wonderful you were able to get two from your friend. In your opinion do you notice differences between your American Havanese and the Cuban ones? If you ever get a chance would love pictures! Someone was having troubles with pictures was it you?
It would be fun to have you guys do a DNA test to see the difference between the American Havanese you have.


----------



## tootle (Jun 19, 2007)

Thanks! 
I don't know the reason, but the breeder says that his dogs don't have eye staining and it's so wonderful not to have to fight that battle.


----------



## tootle (Jun 19, 2007)

Suzi, the breeder did send me some pics and I've collected others along the way since I've had an interest in the Cuban lines. My dog's pedigree shows cream, white and tobacco as colors of his ancestors but I've seen pictures of other colors. I would love to hear more from Andra about colors! Would Tobacco mean sable??


----------



## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

amrileb7 said:


> I am from Cuba and was a member of (Club cubano del bichon habanero) the breed parent club in Cuba.I also owned and showed some dogs(international shows,obtaining exellent results) these dogs were from a line I consider the best and most consistent in type over there,this according to the Cuban standard of the breed.then I left the country leaving my dogs behind,in good homes though.I have lived here for several years now and I wanted to have some Cuban havanese again so I told this to my friend and breeder of the dogs I had in Cuba and he told that he had just got a litter of two a couple of days before I spoke to him,that was last December.so after some paperwork and phone calls and a long waiting at the Miami international airport I got my havanese girls on February 10 this year.
> Btw the dog that shows in my profile pic is an American havanese which I got two years ago from a well known breeder,she is a small girl(5.6 lbs adult weight,8 1/2" tall) with a big attitude.now she has two sisters.


 I am helping Amri post pictures of his puppy's Greis and Sissa . Sissa is the white Havanese . The oldest pictures are at 5 1/2 mo old and the youngest is at 11 weeks old Full names Sissa San Peraza and Greis Sanze Peraza 
* I have no idea why they aren't coming up as a picture I'll try agian*


----------



## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

Suzi said:


> I am helping Amri post pictures of his puppy's Greis and Sissa . Sissa is the white Havanese . The oldest pictures are at 5 1/2 mo old and the youngest is at 11 weeks old Full names Sissa San Peraza and Greis Sanze Peraza
> * I have no idea why they aren't coming up as a picture I'll try agian*


I love the looks of them both, do you think Gries will hold the color, or fade out? Beautiful dogs, both!!! I am interested in the health of the dogs from Cuba, since it appears they have not been bred to the extent the American/US Havs have been bred?


----------



## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Greis Sanze Peraza 5 1/2 mo old







Sissa San Peraza 5 1/2 mo old


----------



## misstray (Feb 6, 2011)

Oh, what cuties!


----------



## lise (Sep 1, 2006)

They are gorgeous!


----------



## andra (Aug 23, 2010)

They are adorable and gorgeous!


----------



## Cailleach (Jan 30, 2010)

I have found the Cubans to have substantially more bone that the NA Havanese. You don't really notice it until you feel them, very solid.


----------



## Cailleach (Jan 30, 2010)

amrileb7 said:


> I think that depends on the lines. from the Cuban lines I know there is only one breeder who breeds huge dogs, totally out of the cuban and FCI standards(the sad thing is that that breeder has plagued europe,south America and some other places with those dogs as big and heavy as coton de tulears misrepresenting the real image of the cuban bichon havanese,with gigantic bitches that give birth to litters of 9 pups. the rest as a norm were dogs no heavier than 10lbs and no taller than 10" .there were about 15 foundation dogs in cuba when the breed started to be rescued and only one bitch was 12" tall ans she was used because of her beautiful head and she wasn't heavy at all she was just long legged.but yes I've seen some Cuban dogs that are very heavy.im just saying what I now about the Cuban dogs since I was one of the founders of the club cubano del bichon habanero" the Cuban parent club.
> It's just my opinion,I just don't want to bother anybody with my post


Since you posted under my last post I am assuming you were responding to mine, if not my mistake. I didn't mean to imply they were too big in stature when I said they are heavier boned. I really like the Cubans I have met in person, very solid dogs with good angulation, within standard and an abundance of bone you definately have to feel to notice the difference from NA bred Havs.


----------

