# at what age to havs change colors?



## Tuss (Apr 22, 2012)

My puppy is 5 months old, she is mostly black with tan markings. The breeder told me the coat color is unpredictable and can silver out. She has been jet black up until now. For the past week I have noticed a few "grey hairs" Just a few (about 10 in total on her back). When do you typically see them fading? What do you think her chances of staying dark are? Photos below.


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## Moe's Gram (Oct 9, 2009)

My Jax was black with white markings when I got him at 4 months. At about 10 months we began to see his tail turn almost white then a gradual silvering in the rest of his coat to the point that by last summer (at age 2) it was hard to distinguish the silvered parts from the white parts. He will be 3 next week and back in March I noticed that his tail was losing some of the white/silver (right now it is 50% black) and gradually his coat is getting darker (more of a dark charcoal grey) with a few black hairs mixed in here and there that do stand out.

To look at him today you would not realize it was the same dog I got almost 3 years ago. It's the caziest thing. I don't have pics on this computer but if I can get to my old laptop later today I will try to post some of his changes over the past 3 years.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Some seem to continue to change throughout their lives. Others, (particularly blacks or B&W that do not carry either the silvering gene or the ticking gene) don't change much at all. Kodi is a B&W parti belton, and has changed very little. But his belton markings are fairly minimal. Some with the belton gene have a LOT of their white areas turn black spotted or sooty. We have one person who used to post regularly who had a dog that I think must have had both the silver gene AND the belton gene. that dog started out as a B&W party puppy, and ended up silver all over!


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## HalleBerry (Feb 22, 2012)

I'm fascinated with the genetics of colors, and in the changing Havanese colors. I get it; in a breed where all colors are showable it's not a priority to be able to identify ahead of time what colors the puppies might be. But I'm still fascinated... especially with the changing colors - with modifying genes for silvering, greying, ticking & dilute all factoring in.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

Tillie really started lightening up around 6-9 months, by a year she had lost most of her darkers colors and was white with a bit of grey/apricot in her ears and tail... now at nearly 2 SOME of her apricot is coming back along her back and top of her head, although it is VERY faint, but if she is next to a white dog you can definitly tell she is NOT white...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

HalleBerry said:


> I'm fascinated with the genetics of colors, and in the changing Havanese colors. I get it; in a breed where all colors are showable it's not a priority to be able to identify ahead of time what colors the puppies might be. But I'm still fascinated... especially with the changing colors - with modifying genes for silvering, greying, ticking & dilute all factoring in.


I find it fascinating too. And I know from horses that you can have two animals that look very similar in color, but have it come from the interactions of very different genes.


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## HalleBerry (Feb 22, 2012)

With great danes, we've managed to identify most of the color/patterns to be able to better predict what we'll get in our litters.... but then in danes, not all colors/patterns can be shown. Danes have dilute colors (blue) but not the greying/silvering modifiers, and from what I have been able to research it's those modifiers that really aren't identified yet - and it's those modifiers that cause the color changes.

Just fascinating!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

HalleBerry said:


> With great danes, we've managed to identify most of the color/patterns to be able to better predict what we'll get in our litters.... but then in danes, not all colors/patterns can be shown. Danes have dilute colors (blue) but not the greying/silvering modifiers, and from what I have been able to research it's those modifiers that really aren't identified yet - and it's those modifiers that cause the color changes.
> 
> Just fascinating!


But then there are the color "patterns" too... Like Irish Pied. And while it doesn't have a specific name, it is pretty clear to me that there is a genetic component to the black (or other colored) head and white bodied dogs that are so common in the breed. This is, from what I can see, very distinct from the more generic ""parti" color pattern. These dogs, if they have any color on their bodies, it is spotting along the spine. Not that these cause color changes, but they are very distinctive.

Oh, and then there's the belton gene, which is well understood, but causes HUGE color changes in some dogs.


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## HalleBerry (Feb 22, 2012)

At least in danes, we can genetically identify those patterns - we have them in harlequins! If you get a chance, this is JP's website - she is one of the major players in getting dane color genetics identified: http://www.chromadane.com/chlinx.htm#linkk9color and this in particular: http://www.chromadane.com/standardcoat.htm

Since in harlequin great danes, only specific color/patterns can be shown - we have spent a lot of research dollars towards identifying those genes so we can selectively breed for color.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

HalleBerry said:


> At least in danes, we can genetically identify those patterns - we have them in harlequins! If you get a chance, this is JP's website - she is one of the major players in getting dane color genetics identified: http://www.chromadane.com/chlinx.htm#linkk9color and this in particular: http://www.chromadane.com/standardcoat.htm
> 
> Since in harlequin great danes, only specific color/patterns can be shown - we have spent a lot of research dollars towards identifying those genes so we can selectively breed for color.


It looks more like one of the Piebalds shown more than the Harlequins (the "Boston" pattern is the closest to what I'm talking about, but even then, not exactly. But, in Havanese, they don't differentiate this pattern at all. It's just lumped in with "Parti".

I have a friend who breeds Danes, but her lines only produce fawns and brindles... no white at all.


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## HalleBerry (Feb 22, 2012)

I'd be curious to see what the parti is genetically - should be similar to a piebald I'd think... and we (in danes) have an irish pattern, too - think mantle dane without the collar and without the white tipped tail. It's great fun!

Fawn/brindle danes aren't supposed to have any white on them - neither should the black or blues... Oddly, with all that we've done to work on identifying the harlequin genetics - we still cannot differentiate between fawn & brindle.

I usually color test my danes - just to KNOW what they carry - fawns CAN carry for blue, so it's important as it can change the mask color. Blacks can carry fawn/brindle and blue - so you really have to be careful with them! For us, harlequin is a pattern - so it can carry any of the colors - harlequin is the randomly sized randomly placed patches, but those patches can be any of the colors.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

HalleBerry said:


> For us, harlequin is a pattern - so it can carry any of the colors - harlequin is the randomly sized randomly placed patches, but those patches can be any of the colors.


Well, Havs don't have any color pattern that looks like harlequin...or at least I've never seen one. But as with Danes, there are colors and there are patterns. There is Sable, red, and black, for instance (there are others too of course) which are colors, and Irish Pied, Parti and others that are patterns.

Parti is the closest thing we have to Harlequin, but it is much larger splotches in comparison to the size of the dog. And again, then we have the dogs with a colored head and white body, that are very distinct from the rest of the Partis, but still are categorized that way.

Then you have all the modifiers, like white feet, tail tips, facial markings like blazes, and masks, eyebrows, greying and silvering genes, and the fact that sables and brindles (and most chocolates) almost always fade, even though they don't in other breeds... Geeez!!! no wonder our colors get confusing!ound:


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## HalleBerry (Feb 22, 2012)

It's funny - I do so like to be able to control everything when it comes to breeding (danes for me) - health testing, color testing, AKC DNA - the whole nine yards - so I can pretty well predict what the puppies will be like. And then there are havs.... where NOTHING (color wise that is) can be predicted. What a learning curve this is! :brick:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

HalleBerry said:


> It's funny - I do so like to be able to control everything when it comes to breeding (danes for me) - health testing, color testing, AKC DNA - the whole nine yards - so I can pretty well predict what the puppies will be like. And then there are havs.... where NOTHING (color wise that is) can be predicted. What a learning curve this is! :brick:


Well, I think that may be partly because Danes have a color in the genes that can be a potential health threat... like Collies, Shelties and Aussies. You guys HAVE to worry somewhat about color.

For Havs, you just have to "embrace the rainbow", and concentrate on controlling for the important bits like health, soundness and temperament!


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## HalleBerry (Feb 22, 2012)

Embrace the rainbow - I LOVE that!


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## Becky Chittenden (Feb 4, 2009)

Hav coat is pretty unpredictable for the most part. I have 2 black (one a black parti) that the black hair stayed black, others got brown hair and eventually silver in their coat. As for parti, though I haven't looked to see if any research has been done on it, I think, like the sheltie (my original breed), probably comes from breeding two white factored dogs together, perhaps also the color headed whites. If you breed 2 white factored shelties you might get one little white body spot, a dog with alot of white body spots, a color headed white or one with regular color. Because the merle gene is not invloved, unless the parents have inheritable health problems, you don't get the odds of genetic problems associated with breeding two merles (dilutes)


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