# New Here



## havlover (Jan 12, 2007)

Hello,

My name is Kari and we have had our first Havanese puppy since the day before Thanksgiving. He is almost 17 weeks old and his name is Murphy. We love him dearly. He is a rather mellow dog but has some shyness issues we are trying to work out. Taking him to a puppy class with bigger dogs seems to have made things worse for him. We are going to try a small dog play group and see how things go.

Anyway, I wanted to say hello.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Welcome to the group!!


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## havlover (Jan 12, 2007)

Thanks! I've been trying to figure out how to upload a photo of my little guy so it appears to the left like everyone elses. What am I doing wrong?


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## havlover (Jan 12, 2007)

I figured it out!


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## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

Welcome! I'm new, too. My little guy is only 9 weeks old, and has alot of the same colorings as yours. Good luck on the shyness issue. Maybe it's just his personality?


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Wow - he looks so much like my Lexi. I love the black & white ones. How are you all doing on potty training?? My almost 11 week old is pretty bad. He pees 3x per hour. So taking him out is great, till 20 minutes later.


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

Welcome aboard Kari. Murphy is beautiful!!!!!!! You came to a great place with lots of information.

Best wishes.


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## havlover (Jan 12, 2007)

Thanks for the welcomes! 

Potty training? We are using a bell now on the door. He uses it mostly to tell us he wants to play outside! He'll be 17 weeks tomorrow and we are doing pretty good but it's really because we take him out a lot.


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## Melissa Miller (Aug 2, 2006)

Hi Kari welcome to the forum!
Murphy is very cute! The shyness could be his personality as mentioned above. 

My Stogie is the same way. He wont go up to people, and with men its worse. But he is still sweet. 

Glad you posted your photo, he is adorable.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Welcome to the group! Puppy classes are a great way to help with shyness and socialize. With the shyness issues especially in puppy classes just make sure your dog has only good experiences with bigger dogs. My havanese is extremely social with other dogs, with people-we always have to work on that! I have a 4lb maltese and her first class they decided to let all the dogs offleash and trust them to socialize.. it doesnt work and it makes a little dog more fearful. Only let the dog be around other big dogs that are well socialized. I learned this before we added the havanese! Remember you are your puppy's advocate and if it doesn't feel right, say no!

Amanda


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Hi Kari,

I believe we 'met' in the yahoo havanese list, but it's nice to see a pic of your Murphy. I also just joined here so hope to get to know more of you and your pets. 

The puppy class we went to did too many things I didn't like so we only attended 3 out of 6 them. Stupid place... anyway, they also threw all the pups together in the middle of the room and we were told not to interfere, that they would settle things amongst themselves. The theory was that the 'weaker', smaller ones would always remain fearful if we scooped them up to "safety". Well, Ricky was no fool... he found me sitting on a chair and hid behind it looking out at all the fuss in the middle of the room! He didn't budge! LOL Man, there was a boxer there, 2 labs and a mixed Germ. Shepherd that were way too big for my Hav and 2 other wee pups there. I dunno..... didn't seem like a good idea at the time, but at least Ricky wasn't traumatized. 

I try to get him out to see friends/family that have dogs so he can get used to them. The only one his size is a Jack Russell with whom he had a blast on Xmas day!! What a hoot to see them play - Davey is 2 and our Ricky was 5 mths. at the time. Others we know have huge dogs - Burmese Mtn., Choc. Lab and an English Setter, but Ricky actually enjoyed playing with the Eng. Setter on New Year's Day when we saw him, so that has also worked out nicely.

Good luck - great idea to get your pup used to all sizes and types of dogs, though it's hard if it's winter where you live. I know!


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Hi, Kari
Welcome to the group. You will find it very helpful. When I got Kodi, he was not sure what another dog was, which was strange coming from a litter of 8. So when he was old enough, I enrolled him in puppy classes to socialize him. It worked - by week 5 he was playing with all the puppies, big and small. He is not afraid of big dogs. Kodi is very mellow and he lkes other dogs that have the same temperment. If the other dog is overly friendly, he will shy away until he gets used to it.


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## havlover (Jan 12, 2007)

*Puppy Classes*

Well, now my guilty conscience is rearing its ugly head. Short history: we had 2 bichon frises for over 16 years. Our first bichon, a male, was very shy and we didn't do things right by him. We coddled and basically didn't expose him to things. So, we get our Havanese pup and I'm determined not to let this happen again. I'd like him to be a therapy dog!

Anyway, I bring him in to the vet for his first vet check once he is with us, and they strongly encourage us to get him into a class--before 14 weeks is really crucial they tell me. Looking around, we find one that fits our schedule and Murphy is the smallest and youngest one there. There is a 5 month old lab, for example. He's petrified and I didn't like having him play with all the dogs at the end of class. I just don't feel it's right but he recovers toward the end and with my past history, I am lead to believe that this is good for him, etc. I don't sleep at all that night because I can't get it out of my head how he responded to the big dogs, which were watched and stopped if they tried anything.

(Because of a time conflict with my youngest daughter's dance class, we can't all go to class.) My husband and oldest daughter take him the next few weeks. The trainer tries different things like not putting him down with the big dogs and staying after class to let him play with the lhasa which is the closest in size to him, but she can be aggressive. He's really not improving much week to week.

In the middle of all of this, we go on a vacation that we rarely do but it was planned months before we get our pup. He goes back to the breeder for the week and he learns to play with some littermates she's keeping. He's learned to play with dogs. Yeah! But, we bring him to class again after this and it's the same.

Long story short, he's gone 4 times to class and there are 2 left. I just brought him in to the vet for his last shots on Friday and discuss this with her. She happens to have Papillons and has 2 6 mos. pups with her at the clinic. She brings in one at a time to see how Murph responds. She observes him and while it took him some time, she said he displays good puppy behavior. Her suggestion is that I don't let him be in a situation with big dogs where he feels overwhelmed. I need to find smaller dogs for him to play with. She even offers her pups again if there is an open room at the clinic.

I knew this didn't feel right but my hubby said I was coddling him and that it will be OK. He wasn't improving much from week to week and this concerned me. Hubby is out of town this week and my daughters and I have decided not to bring him to class this week. I've found some small dog play group options I will pursue.

I feel really guilty about this. The vet assures me it isn't too late and I haven't traumatized him but I just don't know. He is a bit leery of people too. I had been holding back really exposing him to places until he was up to date on his shots. I want to hear that this isn't the end of the world and with dedication we can get things rolling in a positive way again.


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## havlover (Jan 12, 2007)

Yes, I'm sure Murphy is a more mellow dog in general than his littermates. We are surprised that he is as happy as can be munching on a flossie at night on our bed as we watch the news. When he's tired he crawls into his crate and sleeps all night.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Havlover, please try not to feel too guilty about this. 

I know.... easier said than done!  

I had a bad experience with the puppy classes we took too, which is why we quit after 3 of them. Lost the money, but small price to pay for eliminating a huge stress in our lives! Poor Ricky even threw up on the way home from the last class as he was so tired and stressed! 

I think that perhaps Murphy is sensing your fears, worries and guilt. They know when we aren't completely comfortable in a situation and if you aren't sure of being in a certain place, aren't comfy with him playing with bigger dogs, then he will no doubt sense that.You are right though, coddling and comforting only makes things worse! 

Why are you thinking it's a bad idea for him to play with your vet's Papillons?

I think you are doing the right things and have the right attitude. I don't think it is too late for Murph to get used to other dogs. I feel guilty about not having a class or group to bring Ricky to and with winter here, we can't get out as much - it's not like the park is full of dogs in the middle of January! So, like you, I try my best and hope it's enough. Do you have friends or family that own dogs? I invited myself a couple of times to our friends' place just so Ricky could be in contact with her two beasts - a Burmese Mtn. and a Choc. Lab ! lol Of course, my friend is a huge dog lover and will do anything to help me with Ricky getting accustomed to dogs. 

You know what we need? More small dog groups, play groups where we could meet and let the dogs play around! I also think it's important for our pups to meet bigger dogs and learn that they aren't all monsters just because of their size, but maybe with some pups, like Murphy, you just need to do it a little more gradually.

Hopefully those here that have way more experience than I do, will offer some sugg'ns. Good luck !


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Don't feel guilty, you are his mommy and protector-that is your job! What others are trying to say is to socilaize the puppy. If you never expose your dog to certain situations they will be come shy of those. However if you expose them to bad situations- like a hyper lab jumping and hurting them, they will become fearful or reactive. Take the puppy to situations where you have control- the pet store, we have a mall that allows dogs, etc. Slowly! Find a good small dog play group.

It can be difficult to find good puppy classes. You may want to look for an AKC backed all breed training club. The club I am a member of tries to break down their classes by size. Although depending on the time that might not be exactly your dog size. Isabelle is 4lbs so it isn't very often that the dogs are her size-even standing next to my 10lb havanese, she is very small. Our instructors make sure to spend time with the dogs, read body languages, etc. before encouraging people to let their dogs play together, especially puppies!

Now that I have a lot of dog friend's from the club. Dora did grow up with a Bernese that she plays with just fine. Tempo/Flash are also therapy dogs that read with children-they are aware of their size and know appropriate behaviors with small dogs too. But I wouldn't allow Dora to play with a 6 month old lab puppy- no way! She also doesn't get to play with many of the herding breeds since they do their job when they are playing!

Amanda


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## havlover (Jan 12, 2007)

Thanks for your responses. In my rambling I must have given the wrong impression, Marj.  I think it's wonderful our vet is offering to let Murphy play with her dogs and will take advantage of that. I'm bringing him to a small dog play group on Tuesday. I'll let you all know how that goes.


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## havlover (Jan 12, 2007)

Oh, and as far as sensing my fears? That's why hubby took him after week 1.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

havlover said:


> Thanks for your responses. In my rambling I must have given the wrong impression, Marj.  I think it's wonderful our vet is offering to let Murphy play with her dogs and will take advantage of that. I'm bringing him to a small dog play group on Tuesday. I'll let you all know how that goes.


Oh, o.k.! lol I was wondering ..... no problem! lol I'm anxious to hear how tomorrow goes!

Yup, I was so angry at the instructor at the classes we were going to, that I realized *I *was the one that didn't want Ricky there, maybe more than HE didn't want to be there!! Either way... good enough reason to quit going, we thought. I also asked hubby to go with me, so we could switch at the break halfway through class... but he wasn't comfortable there either.

I was SO keen on getting signed up somewhere else after the holidays, planned on calling a couple of other places, but my back gave out on me on the 3rd and I'm in no shape to even drive much, nor walk... let alone go to puppy classes!!  Frustrating as all heck, because now I'm feeling a tad guilty too about this 'missed' opportunity for Ricky!! 

Why do we moms put all this on ourselves!?!


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

Hi EVeryone 
Your puppies are adorable .. So cute 
I had Cosmo in a puppy class and he did fine but it was because of the instructor . She kept the dogs seperate and let the small play with small dogs then introduce the big dogs slowly . I do not know where you live but Cosmo went to the Sirius classes . They are very conscientious and helpful . 
One class we went to with Asta he just hid under the chair and the instructor did absolutely nothing so I know what you are saying ..

This time I asked specifically if there were any small dogs and one class did not have any so I waited for another class to start .. 
I also asked about a refund if it did not work out .. Fortunately he graduated and he had a ball .
Now that he is older so are the other dogs and they are just too big and here we go again .. 
Cosmo has the same problems - he is shy and tenative and then he gets a bit of courage and tries to make contact and then retreats and it continues on like that . 
I have spent hours socializing him and it improves a little and then something happens to him and he has a set back . He got very sick over Thanksgiving vacation and he had to be hospitalized overnight . We do not know what he got - it was not dietary something but maybe someone he was exposed to . Too many what a cute puppy pets I guess . The vet said he had never seen so many sick dogs this Thanksgiving vacation ..
I must admit I am getting gun shy too .. I am reluctant to expose him as people are walking around with all these terrible viruses and bugs .
I now figure hemight end up a bubble dog until I can get him a companion dog .. 
We go out every day and meet people but they think he is an odd duck because of the advance and retreat scenario and they do not want to have anything to do with him . 
I am thinking of seeing a behaviourist because I have read everything I can and went to puppy class but there is something I am missing or maybe he needs exposure to someone who is an authority figure besides just my husband and I .
We have had people to the house and he is improving with that meet and greet but we have a long way to go .
Any helpful comments would be appreciated ..


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

It is great you are taking him out and socializing him. With my girls before taking them to new or very stressful obedience shows, I make sure they get out to new places with new smells, etc quite often. One of the things Dora has to work on is not socializing with other dogs (she does this too much!) but with other people. I am now to the point in her training where rather than me pushing it, I want her to make that choice. A great way to do this is to give people food. Whatever your dog's favorite treat (okay strangers don't like putting liver in their hands but... you get the point). I will take and hand it to them. Especially take advantage of this at your local pet stores where you can bring in your dog. Sometimes I will just let them give it to her and pet her. If your dog isn't ready or shy, dont have the person chase the dog. Also try to have them not bend over the dog.

With Dora, she always wants to rush back for more. Sometimes I ask them to have her sit or do a trick. She loves food and this is a great exercise to do with older children too. Dora has about 5 people at my obedience club now that she will go hang with even if they don't have food. She thinks of them as her buddies but it all started with them treating her and petting her. She is still a mommy's girl and if I am doing something, she wants to be with me. She will settle for them if I am just sitting there though.

On the otherhand, my maltese is too social! So I actually tell people to not pet her if she jumps on them but to turn around and ignore her! The last thing I want is to have her rewarded for jumping on people and barking at them.

Good luck
Amanda


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## amymjd (Dec 22, 2006)

Hi,
My name is Amy and my Hav puppy is 4 months old. We've had Lucy for 5 weeks now. She is such a biter! Is this typical? She bites us constantly, almost making it impossible to play with her. She'll bite our ankles and feet as we walk through the kitchen, jump at our faces and bite them if we sit on the ground to try to play with her or pet her. I just started a puppy class and the instructer has us using a special collar for training (around the mouth and behind the ears) her to walk with me, heel, etc. I'm feeling very discouraged because my kids are really afraid of her. Any advice???


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## havlover (Jan 12, 2007)

Hi Amy,

Welcome to the forum! It's sound like you are dealing with a frustrating situation. Murphy is about the same age and goes through periods where he's "bitey" as we call it but nothing too bad. We were always giving him a toy to chew when he is in this mood. We also "yip" very loudly, like his littermates would do, when he bites us. It does startle him and he stops. I'm sure others will have better advice. Good luck and keep us posted. It's no fun for kids (or adults) to have a puppy you can't cuddle and pet without being bit.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Kodi was never a biter and still isn't. Even when he is playing with Shelby, he just mouths her. Shelby is the biter, but she is only 14 wks. When she bites me, I just yell "ouch" and she stops and gives me a very strange look. But poor Kodi. She grabs him by the jowls and pulls him.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Logan has been biting Lily & Lexi, on the chest, tail, and face, and they end up dragging him around the room. I cant believe one of them has not bit him back yet!! We do the same when he gets nippy, we yelp and he usually stops. I have also read that they nip a lot when they have to go potty, and are overtired.


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

Hi 
Cosmo was a little nipper and Biter as well . We got him at 9 weeks and he seemed to like to bite . I found he did it more when he was frustrated or tired and sometimes just to get attention .
It made a big difference once he started puppy class because he got a few little nips here and there . That is how they learn from other puppies . They do not bite that hard but hard enough to make them pay attention .. 
When Cosmo would bite me depending on the severity of the nip I would say Uh Uh .. or No Bite and yes even yell ouch . Just get their attention to show them this is a no no .. You know your dog better than I do .. 
I do not know if you have heard of Ian Dunbar's book . He has a good chapter on biting and bite inhibition . It is important to stop it and correct it right away . Do not let them mouth you or play with your fingers . Make a fist .. then say No bite ! Do not open your fist . 
It is important to change your tone of voice when you correct him and sound firm . Also what I found Cosmo would bite after he got too excited from his play session . I would change my tone and demeanour and raise ymy voice a level to get my attention . 
No more fun Mommy now it is a serious Mommy .. 
Sometimes to stop it you have to ignore them and then you have to leave them alone for a few minutes - leave the room . Hopefully you have him in a safe enclosed space . 
They have to learn it this is serious and it is not acceptable behavior .. 
I would leave the room for a few minutes and then go back . He was in the kitchen which was gated and puppy proofed . Sometimes I would put him in the playpen . He hated that !! He knew Oh Oh and Oh No - not the playpen - she is serious .. I want my freedom back .. 
Now he is a little over 6 months . He is still not perfect but he is much better .. We have a slip now and again but mostly it is because he wants my attention or he is tired . If he persists when I say No bite I warn him with a timeout . He knows what it means -into the crate to calm down . Sometimes he stops sometimes he persists and I put him in the crate for about 5 minutes then let him out . If he goes back to it again . I tell him nap time and put him in for a longer period - usually he does take a little siesta .
Do not be frustrated we have all gone through it and it is normal behaviour for puppies but it does have to be corrected and stopped ...
If you feel too overwhelmed get professional help . That is what they are there for . To correct unwanted behaviour aand to help you . 
It has is not easy and some dogs are harder than others . patience and .
Also remeber we are all busy but it is imprtant that your dog does not get bored . Make sure he gets exercised every day take him for a little walk . We do our lessons where he does his sit stay wait down etc. just for a short period - 5- 10 minutes then we play usually fetch . It makes a big difference to interact with them in a learning session and then also fun . 
If you can find Ian Dunbar's book I recommend it . It has the picture of a what looks like a ravenous dog on the cover . He runs the puppy training classes called Sirius in Ca - you can find him on line - just google him . I thought found it was very informative helpful . Of course a lot depends on the dogs in the class and the instructor ..
If all else fails get professional help - that is what they are there for . Find an animal behaviourist ..


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Shelby seems to bite more and growl when she is tired. She just wants to be left alone and lets you know it.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

The best Puppy Class I've ever seen has been the Babysitting Room at the National Specialty. I kept it for a few half hours during the week so the girls could take a break last year. On my way down the hall the first day a lady I know was taking her puppy there so I told her that's where I was going so I just took him from her. She told me he was very shy which I found to be true to start with. I carried him in and the pack of 30 or so Havanese running around all wanted to come up and smell him. I held him and made them all stay back for a while. There was an expen set up in there so I put him in that so he could watch without being pestered. Several times I would take him out and gradually get used to sniffing other younger dogs and being sniffed by smaller dogs. I sat on the floor with him and kept the adult dogs away to start with. He quickly felt safe enough to take a few steps away from me with the younger dogs. Within 15 minutes he was running and playing with the pack. 

Several other people would bring other dogs to the door and leave them, with some being shy to start with. These dogs were having a harder time overcoming their shyness- I think because their owners had brought them and left them. The next lady who showed up with a shy one I told to go back down the hall and I would come get the pup. That time worked pretty much like the first time.

All owners of shy dogs who came to pick up their babies shed tears when they saw them running and playing with the pack. I hope to get to do that again at future National Specialties. It was my most satisfying time there.

A pack of Havanese is a very beneficial thing to training young Havanese for all sorts of reasons.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

On biting puppies: They most all do this. It doesn't last long but it's important that it doesn't become a dominance thing to them. Keep toys handy to divert their attention to. They do need a lot of play that looks pretty rough when they are young. They teach each other in their litter how much is too much and need to spend as much time playing with their Mom in weeks 8 to 10 as she will set them straight pretty quickly and in different amounts for different personality pups.

It's probably too hard a thing for young children to do to be able to divert their playing aggressiveness to a toy but some kids catch on pretty quickly. You know it's coming but just have to be prepared. It's a stage that will pass pretty soon.


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

*Hi Kari!!*

Hello everyone! My name is Arlene and I am Murphy's breeder  Murphy is an awesome dude. He is smart and most of all what a pretty boy he is . I think you may be right Kari. These puppers are so smart and sensitive, that they can sense when we are concerned for them. It's like a two or three year old who is pulling at your skirts saying "mommy mommy" and of course we automatically pick them up. Hee hee!! 
I have to say that when Murphy came home for the week that he was here by the next day he was in the xpen with his other 3 siblings (2 siblings and 1 half-sib) and he was playing with them and having a great time. By the time the end of the week rolled around, he was back to "herding" his mommy. Yes...he is the herder of the pack and would herd mommy Viva around the x-pen. It was a sight to see, and very cool  
We are just starting up a local club in our area and one of the activities we have planned on a regular basis will be small dog play groups. Sometimes its tough for a puppy to leave his siblings at 10 to 12 weeks of age and then be faced with a honking German Shepherd or Doberman staring at you in the face. Then again, some smaller dogs will just never like to be near a big dog. I have a few that see a big dog and skirt around it and keep going, but if it's a smaller one they go right up to it and sniff.. LOL!! 
Arlene
Peluito Havanese


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Hi Arlene!

I know you from the lists and of course have heard about Murphy... what a cutie! 

I'm Marj, SAHM of 3 (16, 15 and 12) and of 2 cats and now our wonderful pup, Rickybaby. Hubby finally agreed to get a dog and believe me, he has NO regrets. He's in love with our little guy! 

Anyway, I'm rambling... welcome to the forum.


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

*Hi Marj!!*

Yes I know you too!! Nice to be here among friends! This is a cool forum.


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## havlover (Jan 12, 2007)

*Hi Arlene!*

Gosh, I've been having fun on this site and I never saw this post. Hi Arlene!

To the rest of you, Arlene is an example of one of the wonderful Havanese breeders. She really takes the time before pups are even a thought to momma, while the pups are with the breeder and after.

We now have not only a beautiful boy but a friend.


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## havlover (Jan 12, 2007)

*Shy puppy*

What's interesting is the way the different places we've taken Murphy have told us to act. Most have told us to ignore him, not pick him up, etc. and "he'll come out from under the chair." Well, he never did. Then my hubby and daughters took him to explore a new place we were bringing him for obedience training, not socialization, and a worker observed him. She immediately told my family that we need to get control of our dog. He needs to be on a short leash, given treats when he's nervous and told he's a good boy when he shows good dog behavior. We also talk to him matter of factly when he hears something he's not sure of--that was the front door, that's another dog barking, etc.

I know the fear is coddling but for my hubby and I it made sense to make a connection with him in uncomfortable situations instead of leaving him so vulnerable. Perhaps this other way works for some dogs, but frankly I was surprised we weren't told about this improved way (imho) as an option.

Most importantly, the result? He is building his confidence with good experiences the 2 times he's been there. During his class he didn't have issues when handlers and dogs were told to line up against the wall time and time again for instruction. In fact, he was paying more attention to the other dogs, wanting the check them out, then hubby. So I think we are on the road to success.

I thought I'd post about our experience in case it helps someone else.


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

Gee...now I'm blushing...  
Thanks Kari!
Arlene


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## Cosmosmom (Jan 12, 2007)

Hi 
Nice to meet you Arlene - welcome .


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

Hello! I just love this forum. It is so nicely organized. )


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

quote: "It is so nicely organized"

That's what I've been trying to tell all the people on the different lists for years about forums. I hate the list format. Havanese people are the only ones I know who really seem to like the list format and I just don't understand it.


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