# Itchy dog



## KristenC (Sep 20, 2021)

My Charlotte is 1.5 year and she has been itchy for the past year. She itches in the morning, mostly under chin and a less in the neck area. She will will drag her face on the rug and roll on her back and itch her back. She does this every morning. There are few days where she does do this to a lesser extent. She has no hot spots. She will itch during the day to a lesser extent. I was keeping track of how many times she itches: anywhere from 10 to 15 times a day. She could be itching more because DH does not have attention to detail.

The vet thought that she had a food allergy as she had a 9week ear infection when she was three months old. Vet thought it was a food allergy and put her on Hydrolyzed protein. She continued to itch. I gave her fish oil and she was in crisis all night, itching. The following day they put her on steroids and gave her ultamino diet. On both of these diets, she still itched. She is now off these vet prescribed diets. I do not think that she had a food allergy (chicken) as her ear infection cleared up when I was transitioning her from her previous chicken and rice to the HP.

My question is how much scratching is normal and how much is a problem? Any suggestions? 
I was thinking about changing her food to Ollie lamb and rice to see if the fresh food has any effect on her. Some have suggested raw.... my vet might not be happy with that and they have told me not not not to go grain free. I also wonder about environmental allergies as we live in a old house (I just read the Dogfathers post from 4 months ago on his pups allergies).


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Well, we have talked a bit about this, so you know some of my thoughts. Certainly switching to a novel protein can rule out the chicken. You can also switch to a food with a DIFFERENT grain. There are many. Rice TENDS to be one of the lower allergy ones, but there is SOME dog/person/animal allergic to EVERYTHING! LOL! As far as raw is concerned. _I_ do not feed raw because of my own, personal health reasons. But sometimes you have to do your own research and make your own informed decisions, even if they do not agree with your vet’s ideas. You are ultimately responsible for your dog’s health. NOT your vet. And ALL vets felt the way your vet did it would be one thing. But there are MANY vets that are in full agreement with a PROPERLY BALANCED (that is KEY!!!) raw diet. Again, I am NOT pushing you in that direction. What I am saying is that you need to do your own thinking, when your your Nimal is continuing to have a problem that your vet has not been able to solve.

As far as “how much is too much”, that is REALLY hard to say without seeing it. All dogs DO scratch, just like people do from time to time. Dogs do it MORE than people.  Dogs that are itchy from allergies OFTEN (but not always) lick their paws and around their butt to the point that they have red fur in these areas. They sometimes itch to the point that they make themselves sore. They sometimes itch to the point that they cry while they itch.

The dragging her face on the rug is something that ALL bearded dogs do, especailly after eating or drinking, so unless she does this excessively or obsessively, it probably means nothing. Same with the back rubbing. This is normal dog behavior unless it is excessive. They love a good back rub.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I don’t know about the itching specifically but I think I’d get a second opinion from a different vet. I don’t understand how food allergies can cause ear infections but maybe I’m missing something. I also know that grain free is more complicated than “good” or “bad” and it specifically bothers me when vets remain adamant about it when food allergies are suspected. I don’t have any problem with avoiding grain free diets, but I don’t think grain or not is quite as important when it come to identifying an allergy. Raw is a separate issue from food allergies. I don’t think transitioning to raw will solve the problem unless you know what the allergy is. If you are interested in raw diets there are ways to do that safely that many vets are okay with, such as through commercial raw diets or delivery services, or with help from a nutritionist. I don’t really like prescription diets but they can be necessary, I just find myself wary when it’s the first course of action unless it’s for a particular reason. Many times dogs are switched to a prescription diet and remain on it for years without ever identifying the problem and end up “stuck” on that food. Personally I think it’s more effective to do an elimination diet, which my vet suggested we do next when our puppy had digestive problems. We were considering it and I would have been okay with the prescription diet short term as part of the process, but the food we tried next solved the problem, along with some other adjustments. However, we are in that boat of feeling tied to a specific food because we didn’t really identify the problem food, and if we ever decide to switch food, I will do allergy testing first. 

As far as environmental allergies, there are a few members on the forum who have dealt with it. Something that has come up a few times is that many of the shampoos formulated for allergies can aggravate the problem. Sometimes the answer is a different shampoo, just not necessarily one for allergies. This is true for humans, too, which is why it stuck with me. I know from my experience with my own family that allergies and medications can be tricky for humans, and it can take time to figure out, but don’t give up! I’m pretty impatient but I’m glad we stuck with it, and for each of us the answers and treatments have been different.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

KristenC said:


> I also wonder about environmental allergies as we live in a old house (I just read the Dogfathers post from 4 months ago on his pups allergies).


Yes, to repeat myself, Ricky is seen by whom most Vets consider to be the premier canine dermatologist in Southern California. She says that contrary to what you read on the Internet, canine food allergies are extremely rare. She says that canine itching is usually caused by environmental allergies. We had Ricky tested and he is particularly allergic to black ants, cockroaches, and crickets.....and to a lesser extent palm and pine trees. Old houses are a particular threat to canines because of the dust mites contained therein and goose down products. The way they test a canine for specific allergens is through a series of blood samples. In our case, the cost was $900. Ricky will soon be getting weekly injections of the antigens specific to his allergies. We are also using a prescribed shampoo and after bath finish spray. A bath every week is recommended by the dermatologist. The reason we consider this important is that frequent itching can lead to breaks in the epidermis which can lead to infections which can lead to some serious problems. I recommend that you have a Vet specializing in dermatology do a thorough workup on your dog.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

I had an itchy boy. He did not have fleas or hot spots. He seems to be sensitive to some foods. Chicken and salmon did not agree with his delicate belly. Vet said to find a food with no chicken or salmon, no corn, no wheat but with grain. It is now over 6 months since he started to eat Zignature Select Cuts Turkey. I spent alot of time looking for a food that fit the bill. He loves it. He gets no treats. He thinks a few kernels of food is a treat.
Shadow is 4.5 years and was skinny til recently. He was also pooping usually 6X a day. Finally he has put on some good weight, his pooping has decreased to 3X a day. The scratching is over, too.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I don’t understand how food allergies can cause ear infections but maybe I’m missing something.


Just wanted to address this. Food allergies can most CERTAINLY cause ear infections. Ear infections are one of the first “tells” that Kodi is running out of tolerance for his current current protein.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

And I should add that the Dogfather’s allergist is, of course, correct, MOST dogs do not have true food “allergies”. But some DO have “food sensitivities”. This is a different mechanism in the body, and most lay people lump them in together in short-hand for simplicity, as they BOTH make the dog miserable, and BOTH can cause itching. The food sensitivities ALSO tend to lead to other problems such as IBD.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

krandall said:


> Just wanted to address this. Food allergies can most CERTAINLY cause ear infections. Ear infections are one of the first “tells” that Kodi is running out of tolerance for his current current protein.


Do you know why? I can see the link between environmental allergies and ear infections in humans because of mucus and drainage, so it’s not a huge stretch to imagine it in dogs. But I’ve never heard of it in connection with food allergies. Is it because itching or inflammation increases? Is it exacerbated by floppy ears?


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## KristenC (Sep 20, 2021)

krandall said:


> Well, we have talked a bit about this, so you know some of my thoughts. Certainly switching to a novel protein can rule out the chicken. You can also switch to a food with a DIFFERENT grain. There are many. Rice TENDS to be one of the lower allergy ones, but there is SOME dog/person/animal allergic to EVERYTHING! LOL! As far as raw is concerned. _I_ do not feed raw because of my own, personal health reasons. But sometimes you have to do your own research and make your own informed decisions, even if they do not agree with your vet’s ideas. You are ultimately responsible for your dog’s health. NOT your vet. And ALL vets felt the way your vet did it would be one thing. But there are MANY vets that are in full agreement with a PROPERLY BALANCED (that is KEY!!!) raw diet. Again, I am NOT pushing you in that direction. What I am saying is that you need to do your own thinking, when your your Nimal is continuing to have a problem that your vet has not been able to solve.


She was originally on chicken and rice from the breeder prior to the HP and ultamino and I saw no difference. Now she is on lamb and oatmeal. Interesting, she was recently sick and I gave her boiled chicken and rice and it seemed like she did not itch as much. It could be that she was not feeling well. Would it be harmful to give a trial of boiled chicken and rice for a week and see how she does?
Someone in the dog training world said that kibble lacks the nutrients to get to the skin. All of the food and nutrition is utilized on the organs and there is nothing left for the skin and coat.


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## KristenC (Sep 20, 2021)

DogFather said:


> Yes, to repeat myself, Ricky is seen by whom most Vets consider to be the premier canine dermatologist in Southern California. She says that contrary to what you read on the Internet, canine food allergies are extremely rare. She says that canine itching is usually caused by environmental allergies. We had Ricky tested and he is particularly allergic to black ants, cockroaches, and crickets.....and to a lesser extent palm and pine trees. Old houses are a particular threat to canines because of the dust mites contained therein and goose down products. The way they test a canine for specific allergens is through a series of blood samples. In our case, the cost was $900. Ricky will soon be getting weekly injections of the antigens specific to his allergies. We are also using a prescribed shampoo and after bath finish spray. A bath every week is recommended by the dermatologist. The reason we consider this important is that frequent itching can lead to breaks in the epidermis which can lead to infections which can lead to some serious problems. I recommend that you have a Vet specializing in dermatology do a thorough workup on your dog.


Yes I’d like to get her seen. But why did you go to a vet derm and not an allergist? Would they do the same thing? this weekends I’m going to store all my down away. Ouch.... we have four bedrooms and all have many down comforters, pillows and beds..... it’s get cold here in Massachusetts!


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## KristenC (Sep 20, 2021)

krandall said:


> And I should add that the Dogfather’s allergist is, of course, correct, MOST dogs do not have true food “allergies”. But some DO have “food sensitivities”. This is a different mechanism in the body, and most lay people lump them in together in short-hand for simplicity, as they BOTH make the dog miserable, and BOTH can cause itching. The food sensitivities ALSO tend to lead to other problems such as IBD.
> Interesting because my vet does ask me if there has been any diarrhea, which there has not. Her stools have been good except when she has gotten sick twice.


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## KristenC (Sep 20, 2021)

Interesting because my vet does ask me if there has been any diarrhea, which there has not. Her stools have been good except when she has gotten sick twice.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Do you know why? I can see the link between environmental allergies and ear infections in humans because of mucus and drainage, so it’s not a huge stretch to imagine it in dogs. But I’ve never heard of it in connection with food allergies. Is it because itching or inflammation increases? Is it exacerbated by floppy ears?


I don’t, but it was my vet who pointed It out to me, and it is now one of the first signs that we are reaching the end of the run on any particular protein with Kodi. He could get a single ear infection “just because it happens”. If he gets a second in quick succession, it is a pretty sure bet that he is building an intolerance to that protien, and if we don’t switch soon, we will start to see break-through IBD symptoms… which are much harder to deal with.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KristenC said:


> She was originally on chicken and rice from the breeder prior to the HP and ultamino and I saw no difference. Now she is on lamb and oatmeal. Interesting, she was recently sick and I gave her boiled chicken and rice and it seemed like she did not itch as much. It could be that she was not feeling well. Would it be harmful to give a trial of boiled chicken and rice for a week and see how she does?


If you are thinking like a quasi-elimination diet, that’s not how they work. The dog has to be removed from ALL previous possible allergens and put on a completely novel diet with only a couple of ingredients for extended period of time. I can’t remember the exact details, because it was a LONG time ago that we did this stuff with Kodi, but I KNOW it was at least SIX weeks. One week is not nearly enough for the system to settle down. With Kodi, the vet had us use lean ground turkey and sweet potato. (Sweet potato actually has good nutritionsl value, ehile rice is JUST starch and calories) a week on chicken and rice certainly won’t hurt her, it is done pretty often for tummy upsets, but it won’t tell you anything either.



KristenC said:


> Someone in the dog training world said that kibble lacks the nutrients to get to the skin. All of the food and nutrition is utilized on the organs and there is nothing left for the skin and coat.


That makes absolutely no sense. Kibble might not be the best choice, nutritionally, but there are many, MANY tops show breeders who swear by Purina Proplan. It is not a food _I_ would feed. But many people do, and their dogs have gorgeous coats and no problems with their skin. Honestly, most breeders of large breed dogs with multiple mouths to feed just can’t afford all the high end fancy stuff we lavish on our pet Havanese, yet they STILL have (and produce!) gorgeous, healthy animals. And under the skin, no matter the size and “cuteness factor, regardless of small breed differences, “dogs is dogs”


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KristenC said:


> Yes I’d like to get her seen. But why did you go to a vet derm and not an allergist? Would they do the same thing? this weekends I’m going to store all my down away. Ouch.... we have four bedrooms and all have many down comforters, pillows and beds..... it’s get cold here in Massachusetts!


I would not do that if you don’t KNOW that is the problem. You are tilting at windmills. You could put yourself in a glass bubble before you are done, slowly eliminating things by guess-work.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

As far as diets in general, I think it’s important to consider that a high quality diet benefits them over months and years, but a reasonable prescription or elimination diet is unlikely to actually harm them, especially short term. Whatever you decide to do with your vet, I wouldn’t worry about kibble or a prescription diet for a couple of months. Nutrition is important but the consequences of a diet that she is sensitive to will cause more problems long term. But, I still think I’d get a second opinion, from a specialist since you probably have access to one in your area. In my area, dermatology and allergy specialties seem to be combined. I’m curious if they are actually certified that way or if it’s marketing.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

Before taking any drastic steps, I would wash all doggy bedding in a fragrance free detergent. Give her a thorough bath with a hypoallergenic shampoo/conditioner. Be sure not to bath too often though.

I would consider what Poppi said about dust mites especially if you live in an older home.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> As far as diets in general, I think it’s important to consider that a high quality diet benefits them over months and years, but a reasonable prescription or elimination diet is unlikely to actually harm them, especially short term. Whatever you decide to do with your vet, I wouldn’t worry about kibble or a prescription diet for a couple of months. Nutrition is important but the consequences of a diet that she is sensitive to will cause more problems long term. But, I still think I’d get a second opinion, from a specialist since you probably have access to one in your area. In my area, dermatology and allergy specialties seem to be combined. I’m curious if they are actually certified that way or if it’s marketing.


There are CERTAINLY board certified veterinary dermatologists. Not positive about allergy specialists. It is possible;e that allergies come under another special, whether it is derm, or lumped, as with humans, with infectious disease very often.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> ...The dragging her face on the rug is something that ALL bearded dogs do, especailly after eating or drinking, so unless she does this excessively or obsessively, it probably means nothing. Same with the back rubbing. This is normal dog behavior unless it is excessive. They love a good back rub.


Perry has runny eyes and he does the rubbing his face on the ground for that as well as after meals (wet beard ) and after a bath. He does also like to rub his back on the ground, but that's something I've seen dogs of all breeds (and horses too) do.

I'd try to figure out if the itching is a normal amount of if it's excessive. Perry does chew on his feet and rubs his face, but he doesn't cause any hot spots and other than the runny eyes, he doesn't seem excessively itchy to me (though I do wonder about that sometimes)





krandall said:


> If you are thinking like a quasi-elimination diet, that’s not how they work. The dog has to be removed from ALL previous possible allergens and put on a completely novel diet with only a couple of ingredients for extended period of time. I can’t remember the exact details, because it was a LONG time ago that we did this stuff with Kodi, but I KNOW it was at least SIX weeks. One week is not nearly enough for the system to settle down. With Kodi, the vet had us use lean ground turkey and sweet potato. (Sweet potato actually has good nutritionsl value, ehile rice is JUST starch and calories) a week on chicken and rice certainly won’t hurt her, it is done pretty often for tummy upsets, but it won’t tell you anything either.


I know in humans they recommend an elimination diet for 2 months before starting to add things back to see what might be the cause or at least that was the recommendation by my ENT when I got tested for allergies - found out that what I thought were allergy symptoms were actually migraine related and they suggested I do an elimination diet to figure out my migraine triggers.


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