# Vana's Dad



## holt24 (Jan 21, 2011)

:biggrin1:

couldn't help it 


really she looks like this coton


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## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

I always think she looks most like a coton.


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## holt24 (Jan 21, 2011)

clare said:


> I always think she looks most like a coton.


you have and you were right guess she carries the coton traits strong, but portie? I am hoping they will re-check that!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

But her coat isn't like a Coton at all, except that she's white... She seems to have a flattish, shiny coat. (more like a Maltese, which they say she isn't<g>) Cotons have very fluffy, cottony coats.

We have a gorgeous long haired white cat, and people are always asking us her breed. We tell them she is a rare "American White Cat". I think Vana is related... She's a rare "American White Dog".<g>


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## holt24 (Jan 21, 2011)

that may just be my lame camera but I did take her by a groomer shop that I know and they thought her hair felt cottony, and she may seem silky to me since I am used to my wire coated babies here are some cotons, see any Vana qualities? I have been reading up on them and she seems to fit some of their qualities.


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## holt24 (Jan 21, 2011)

here are some of Vana - 1st photos when saved hair kinda looks like this cotons?


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## AKathy (Mar 15, 2008)

My sister has a coton and his hair looks different than Vana's to me. Whatever her breed, she's a beautiful dog!


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## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

I have 2 little cotons here with us for the weekend. I will snap a few pictures for you. They do look a lot like Vana!


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## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

Here are Sam, on of my little Coton "houseguests".


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## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

Here is Zoey, my other coton "houseguest". They are so cute~! I need to fix her hair and give her a pretty princess bow like Cassie always has


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## holt24 (Jan 21, 2011)

AKathy said:


> My sister has a coton and his hair looks different than Vana's to me. Whatever her breed, she's a beautiful dog!


Funny I pulled up your post and your sis's coton is a cutie ( very unique) so is Stella love that their markings are kinda the same!


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## holt24 (Jan 21, 2011)

they are cute are they having fun?


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## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

Yes, they are all having a great time! We have a full house tonight. 8 dogs here! Two cotons, a bichon/shih tzu mix, and 5 havanese  The house has gone to the dogs


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Have you studied the coton de tulear? I am wondering about their history. Maybe some of Vanas silkier coat is the Americn Eskimo and just didn't get any of the looks of that breed.


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## holt24 (Jan 21, 2011)

Suzi said:


> Have you studied the coton de tulear? I am wondering about their history. Maybe some of Vanas silkier coat is the Americn Eskimo and just didn't get any of the looks of that breed.


I may be just washing her too much haha
no really I may have just been describing it wrong, it is fluffy, thin and soft I haven't pet a Hav so I wouldn't know the silky as opposed too cottony:frusty:
The groomers- 3 of them said cottony not dense double coat like the eskie!

and yes I have been researching:whoo: enjoy
History of the Coton de Tulear

The Coton de Tulear (Cotton of Tulear in French) originates from Madagascar, the world's fourth largest island off the southeast coast of Africa in the Indian Ocean. The capital of Madagascar is Antananarivo. Tulear is a small sea port city at the southern tip of the island. The city was been renamed Toliara after the formation of the new, independent government, The Republic of Madagascar (Repoblikan'i Madagasiraka). Although French is still spoken widely in Madagascar, Malagasy is spoken by most of the 18 million people who inhabit the island.

The island's people are extremely poor, and people there are often just barely surviving. There are many good humanitarian agencies working in Madagascar and with international interest in the many unique creatures that live there, hopefully the people and the forests will benefit. Madagascar's forests are a shimmering mass of dripping leaves and quirky creatures: lemurs, baobabs, geckoes, sifakas and octopus trees. Sadly, they are threatened by aggressive deforestation. The Indian Ocean tsunami of 2004 hit Madagascar's east coast near the towns of Manakara, Sambava and Vohemar, destroying infrastructure and leaving close to 1000 people homeless. Luckily no deaths were recorded. This is also an area where the Coton de Tulear still lives.

It's in the forests of Madigascar and with these people that our little Cotons lived near the sea, in the same area as the now famous ring tailed lemurs. A woman of Indian descent from France who grew up in Tulear was recently visiting Portland, Oregon where she instantly recognized one of the club member's Cotons. She told stories in French of how these little dogs were the precious pets of many richer households, were traded across the channel to Africa into Mozambique, and were the friendly dog street urchins running in packs in the city and outlying forest when she was growing up.

Historically, the Coton's arrival to Madagascar dates to approximately to the 15th century. Ships frequently sailed to the West Indies around Africa's Cape of Good Hope into the Mozambique Channel to the Indian Ocean.

Sea voyages were often long and boring and sailors' quality of life was very poor. To offset these hardships and the loneliness of the ladies also traveling on these ships, little spirited white dogs accompanied them. The same little dogs were also used to rid the ships of unwanted mice and rats. They could be trained and were more companionable than cats, and many ocean going people found small white dogs excellent seafaring companions.

There is a common story that during a violent storm, a shipwreck occurred in the proximity of Tulear, Madagascar. No one knows the name of the ship or its flag but all versions of the story tell that all the sailors perished. Some of the little white dogs from this ship swam ashore near Tulear, and it is assumed that they are the ancestors of the Coton de Tulear. These little white dogs also developed into the Bichon Frise, the Bolognese, Maltese and other similar breeds. You can see these small dogs in some Renaissance paintings, sitting with royal ladies and notable figures.

The dogs settled on the island, became wild, and eventually met with the local dogs. The Coton de Tulear resulted from this relationship. It's thought by some that the deep coloration on puppies that later fades to white or champagne came from this cross breeding. There is a small wild dog, now extinct, with a patchy brown, black and tan coloration of the wild dogs of South Africa that lived in this area during the time of the Coton, and a mix of this wild dog with the small white dogs from the ships may have resulted in the coloration we see on Coton puppies. It's also thought that the common dog of Madagascar, a mix of many breeds where also their ancestor. There were also terriers on the island. Whatever the ancestory the Coton de Tulear is as unique as many animals found on the wild and isolatolated island of Madagascar, and people who live with them can attest to their not being quite like other dogs in their intelligence, happy temperment, and unique vocalizations, just a few of the many excellent traits of the rare Coton de Tulear.

These little dogs foraged for food to survive and learned to protect themselves against bigger predators. There are stories that they even hunted in packs. Even now when numbers of Cotons live together, they form strong heretical packs. The Coton de Tulear still has many primitive attributes, and will hunt for fun if given the chance. Coton packs always have a strong female leader who keeps everyone in line. The males are less dominant, although the Alpha male is clearly the top male in the pack. Unlike many breeds that have been around for a long while, it's easy to tell the male Cotons from the females. The females are truly little ladies, and the males are somewhat larger and more masculine. If you go the home page of this site and refresh your browser, you will cycle through a number of photos of Cotons. It's easy to spot the females and to see the difference in the males. Because the Coton de Tulear has not been bred for very long, it's easy to see the difference between individuals, unlike breeds who have been bred for a long time where each individual looks a lot like the others, and males and females are similar.

According to the Federation Cynologique Internationale (the FCI) breed standard, the height of the male at the withers varies between 25 cm to 32 cm (approximately 9.8 in. to 12.5 in.) with the ideal being 28 cm (11 in.) and the height for the female at the withers varies between 22 cm to 28 cm (approximately 8.5 in. to 11 in.) with the ideal being 25 cm (11 in.) The male weighs between 4 to 6 kg (approximately 8.8 to 13.2 pounds) and the female weighs between 3.5 to 5 kg (approximately 7.7 to ll pounds).

The Coton de Tulear is a small, sweet "cottony" long-haired dog with a big dog's heart. The coloring is white, champagne and white and also tricolor. It is a happy, somewhat boisterous little companion, often acting like a clown, very eager and intelligent, and forms very strong bonds with his/her masters. The dark brown eyes are round, well spaced, rimmed with black, showing a lively and intelligent expression. The nose is black the lips are thin and rimmed with black. The ears are dropped, thin, triangular and covered with long hair. The ratio of the height at the withers to the length is 2:3. The Coton de Tulear has a slightly curved top-line which in part differentiates him from other members of the Bichon family.

The Coton thrives on love, food, human companionship and protection from his family. It will never tire of too much TLC! Pet him, carry him, talk to him and you will see great results. He will shower you with kisses since he is so affectionate and, being a good listener, will cock his head to the side while you talk to him. Being a lively companion, he is always ready to play, seldom tires and will clown around and jump to attract your attention. He will happily trot next to you in the house, observe your gestures and vocalize to you with a particular sound that does not resemble barking, but more like grunting or growling, so go ahead, make his day, and answer him in the same fashion.

The Coton gets along well with other dogs, cats and children. He is a good traveler, is easily trained and housebroken. He will love taking walks with you (on a leash of course).

The Coton is seldom sick and has an approximate life span of l5 to 19 years. Although he is very hardy, and does not mind to playing in the rain and the snow, he still is an indoor dog. While not known as a"guard dog" the Coton is an excellent alarm dog. He is very protective of his house and master and because of his keen hearing he will alert you right away to strange noises.

Puppies are born either all white or with spots, mainly around the head and the ears, but also sometimes on the body. These spots which are yellow, brown, rust or black, disappear as the Coton matures and can leave behind a light to medium champagne and/or grey coloring.

The hair is shorter as a puppy but reaches approximately four inches or so in adulthood. Because the Coton has minimal shedding (mainly springtime) and has hair and not fur, he is a good choice for people with allergies.

The Coton de Tulear's hair is soft and fluffy to the touch, non-oily, and light as the cotton flower. Gentle brushing 3 or 4 times a week with a special pin brush (without balls at the end of the pins which tear and damage the coat) will help alleviate matting that can occur especially behind the ears, legs and elbow region. Particular attention will be needed with the coat between the age of 9 to l4 months when the adult hair is coming in. Matting can be at its highest during that time. Besides the fact that the dog will love the attention if introduced to grooming as a puppy, less bathing will be required. If you need to bathe the dog, make sure to use an appropriate shampoo for the Coton coat and its hair. How often to bathe depends upon many factors and your own individual choice. Please remember that, when it comes to advice, your breeder and veterinarian can offer you invaluable help. You can also get a lot of help from other members of the USACTC, which is a great source for all Coton owners.


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## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

Well I haven't read all the above, but the thing is this in my book on Havs it says how [as we know]all the Bichon breed share similar genes so Havs,Malts,Frise,Bolognese,Coton,Lowchen and the Potuguese Water dog share many of the same characteristics.So hence Vana coming up as having Coton/Portuguese Water Dog.


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## LeighaMason (Dec 16, 2010)

I have an idea! Lets shave Vana's butt like a water dog! :evil:


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

LeighaMason said:


> I have an idea! Lets shave Vana's butt like a water dog! :evil:


 ound: NO WAY! 
I read the whole description and history Vanna fits most except those beautiful almond shaped eyes of the Havanese. Did you know the cotons are very expensive! Have you found her to be a hunter yet? She does have the longer legs right?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

holt24 said:


> here are some of Vana - 1st photos when saved hair kinda looks like this cotons?


The Cotons I know don't have that shiny, almost metallic look to their hair that Vana has. The coasts I've seen that look like that are Maltese.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> Have you studied the coton de tulear? I am wondering about their history. Maybe some of Vanas silkier coat is the Americn Eskimo and just didn't get any of the looks of that breed.


American Eskimos have a VERY different, shedding coat, of middle length. It doesn't grow very long. It's also a coat meant for outdoors in the winter, with a harsher outer coat and a DENSE undercoat. To me, Vana doesn't have any of that. If she's got Eskimo genes, they are well hidden.:biggrin1:


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## holt24 (Jan 21, 2011)

clare said:


> Well I haven't read all the above, but the thing is this in my book on Havs it says how [as we know]all the Bichon breed share similar genes so Havs,Malts,Frise,Bolognese,Coton,Lowchen and the Potuguese Water dog share many of the same characteristics.So hence Vana coming up as having Coton/Portuguese Water Dog.


Porties are part of the Bichon family?


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## holt24 (Jan 21, 2011)

ound:


LeighaMason said:


> I have an idea! Lets shave Vana's butt like a water dog! :evil:


ound:

and shave the tail like one too or leave a poodle puff on her but ound:

the lowchen sometimes get cut like a lion too


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## holt24 (Jan 21, 2011)

krandall said:


> American Eskimos have a VERY different, shedding coat, of middle length. It doesn't grow very long. It's also a coat meant for outdoors in the winter, with a harsher outer coat and a DENSE undercoat. To me, Vana doesn't have any of that. If she's got Eskimo genes, they are well hidden.:biggrin1:


so true! hidden where I don't know? I know Vana is no Nordic dogound:her hair is more whispy and single coated. ? if you hold your dog's hair up does it stay up or fall back in place? 
I got a response back from wisdom and just sent my 2nd reply, with more photos and descriptions. I am wondering if a blood test would be any more conclusive?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

holt24 said:


> Porties are part of the Bichon family?


I don't believe so. They were bred as working dogs... The Bichon group were bred as small "lap dogs" (or what we now call "companion dogs")


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

I just looked up the history of the American eskimo dog they were re named from german spitz dogs. And interestingly were also circus dogs just like our havanese. here are some pictures of very different looking American Eskimo's They do have those ovel eyes


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## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

holt24 said:


> Porties are part of the Bichon family?


Apparently so here is the quote. Bred from similar stock to the well known Poodle, the Portuguese Water Dog shares many of the same characteristics, including a water-proof coat. 
The thing is in my book it goes into all the genetics going way back, there are pages and pages about the origins of the Bichon breeds,and at some point the PWD was bred with Poodles who then went on to be bred with Blanquitos de la Habana,thus introducing different colours and longer legs,and the beginnings of the Havanese we know today.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

clare said:


> Apparently so here is the quote. Bred from similar stock to the well known Poodle, the Portuguese Water Dog shares many of the same characteristics, including a water-proof coat.
> The thing is in my book it goes into all the genetics going way back, there are pages and pages about the origins of the Bichon breeds,and at some point the PWD was bred with Poodles who then went on to be bred with Blanquitos de la Habana,thus introducing different colours and longer legs,and the beginnings of the Havanese we know today.


I've never heard poodles being included with Bichon breeds either. Poodles are (or were:biggrin1 very much working dogs.


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## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

The book I was quoting from is called {strangely] Bichon Havanese,and it is written by Zoila Portuondo Guerra.


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## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

Oh, I also found this in another book I have.The Bichon family and the Poodle may have a common ancestor.One candidate is the poodle- like Barbet, which is a Water Spaniel and one of the Frances oldest breeds... This book which sort of confirms what the other book says is called,Havanese and it is by Nikki Riggsbee.


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## holt24 (Jan 21, 2011)

I am wondering if I am describing her eye shape wrong, the profile photo she is smiling so she is squenting- the photos of the cotons kinda look like hers . As opposed to a true almond like Oliver above. When I think round I think on the Bichon frise, now I am googling photos and they all are looking the same shape- mine are crossing:frusty:


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## clare (Feb 6, 2010)

Well our Dizzie has the classic almond shaped Hav eyes, but Nellie has much rounder eyes, so they do vary.


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## holt24 (Jan 21, 2011)

clare said:


> Apparently so here is the quote. Bred from similar stock to the well known Poodle, the Portuguese Water Dog shares many of the same characteristics, including a water-proof coat.
> The thing is in my book it goes into all the genetics going way back, there are pages and pages about the origins of the Bichon breeds,and at some point the PWD was bred with Poodles who then went on to be bred with Blanquitos de la Habana,thus introducing different colours and longer legs,and the beginnings of the Havanese we know today.


Well I guess it isn't that far out there as I thought it was, I am gaining a wealth of knowledge


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## holt24 (Jan 21, 2011)

clare said:


> Oh, I also found this in another book I have.The Bichon family and the Poodle may have a common ancestor.One candidate is the poodle- like Barbet, which is a Water Spaniel and one of the Frances oldest breeds... This book which sort of confirms what the other book says is called,Havanese and it is by Nikki Riggsbee.


:whoo:

Thanks


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## holt24 (Jan 21, 2011)

got another response from Mars- testing company:
Dear Jenny;

Thank you for your response back and I'm sorry that our explanation was not satisfactory regarding Havana White's results. I would like to escalate your concerns to our science team for review and once the review is complete, you will be contacted to discuss their findings. I will also have them double check the Coton de Tulear which appeared not on the main report but on the additional breeds page.

We thank for the additional photos of Havana White and will attach these to her ticket as well as the original ones you sent. The reason that our policy is to obtain a photo is to try to understand whether there has been a sample mix-up in the laboratory or if a computer algorithm generated breed signature mismatch is to blame. Also, if the scientists deem that there were not any mix-ups, they can often find traits in the pictures that match certain breeds in the reports and scientifically explain those results to the customer and/or vet.

so we shall see


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## holt24 (Jan 21, 2011)

this is what they have listed for Havanese :biggrin1:
http://www.wisdompanel.com/photos/search.html/breed/Havanese

this is even funnier: maltese
http://www.wisdompanel.com/photos/search.html/breed/Maltese

none listed for Coton de tulear?

http://www.wisdompanel.com/photos/search.html/breed/Lowchen

:frusty:
http://www.wisdompanel.com/photos/search.html/breed/Portuguese+Water+Dog

actually this kinda makes me feel better the dogs they have listed with the breeds are as if they picked them out of a hat( some fit but come on!):
http://www.wisdompanel.com/photos/search.html/breed/Bichon+Frise


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