# The food thing....again!!



## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

First off-- Let me apologize to you all for this really long post-- but I could use your help---

You know just when ever you feel confident in your choices, the dogs seem happy, and you are willing to say "they are just dogs, they will eat what I give them" something happens to rock your confidence. In my case it is Cash's being a pudge, along with something I just received about cooking the medallions.



> "Before I say anything else - please do not feed the Nature's variety medaillons cooked - they contain bone, and any form of bone that is heat-treated (in any way, cooked, steamed, baked, roasted, barbecued, etc.) is NOT safe to feed to dogs due to the changes in the molecular structure that happens under the influence of heat. You would be better off cooking boneless meat and adding a calcium supplement.


this came from a woman- who works as a nutrition consultant for dogs that I was linked to from "the dog food project" below. her resume seems to have the science to back her claims. I wrote her before I realized she offered her services for pay about adding fiber to my boys diet. She wrote me back an amazingly generous response including the above but also going into some ideas about fiber and weight loss for dogs. And I may purchase a consult with her.

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/
http://www.betterdogcare.com/

But it is the "NOT SAFE for dogs to eat cooked bones" that has put me back into this tail spin-- I always thought that the cooking the bone thing was because they would splinter,etc. but these bones are ground so I didn't think it posed a problem-- after all dogs eat, plastic and wood and stuffed animals all the time ...what could a cooked pulverized peice of bone do?

So last night and this morning the boys got their medallions raw-even though it grosses me out(semi frozen was less gross) with some green beans and pumpkin...and some potatoes for Jasper who has more energy with a little more grains in his diet. And boy! even slow, easy, Jasper ate as fast as Cash. But then, I could not help to think of Helen and Oreo's experience, and those who chimed in that their dogs were losing their hair on the raw

So not really sure what to do anymore. I would love to just put Fromms down since it gets such rave reviews. But my boys won't touch it (although I did ask for samples to try again) Jasper will eat a late night meal of Royal Canin it does not seem to matter which type (right now I have weight care which is high in fiber, and beauty which is lower in protein mixed) But he will not eat it at meal time if I put it down (and then you read that royal canin is not the best ...and I 2nd guess that too--but it is a kibble he will eat) Jasper would do well grazing as he limits himself. But since Cash is a pudge I have to feed them at set times-- although Cash rarely touches the kibble (but they both will do tricks for the very same kibble...LOL) And Cash has eaten kibble mixed with EVO canned but I don't know if he would eat it as consistently as the raw.

And then I started thinking that maybe my mixing and matching is what has made Cash a pudge. We really do not over do the treats but we need some for training-- we break them up tiny. But If I do start feeding them the NV Raw, are the cooked jerky treats bad for them? Can I not use the kibble for training at night. I mean kind of like the atkins diet-- it only works if you really do it. I bet Cash would lose weight eating nothing but the medallions-- but would he be hungry? it does not seem like a lot of volume --- The NV site says my guys at a low energy level should get 5 medallions a day--- or--- 1/4 kibble and 3.5 medallions a day.

So just like planning a wedding where everyone tell you how it should be done, and what you are missing, and every bride needs, which makes you feel desperate--- I am feeling really confused and yes a little desperate over the feeding of my two precious if not perfect little boys.

again, sorry to bore you to tears with this "this food thing", I know we have all heard before. But if you could all offer some clear, pretty concise opinions of what you would do in my situation (treat me like a patient or a child--LOL) I would appreciate it.

Here are the facts:

Jasper: 18 lbs, not overweight, does better with more carbs in his diet has more energy happier-- does have a tendency to not express his anal glands
AM: currently eats a dab of yogurt, pineapple , and fish oil in the am and will occaissionally eat 1 medallion or some kibble. (altough he had no problem eating 2 medallions raw this morning)

PM: 3 medallions 1/8c greeenbeans, 1/8c potato, dab of yogurt mixed with pumpkin

Late night snack: @1/8 cup royal canin kibble while we do tricks 
if there is kibble left out he may eat that too (I never leave more than 1/8 cup out at a time)

Cash: 21.5 lbs-should be @19:
AM: a dab of yogurt, fish oil, pumpkin- 2 medallions with 1/8 cup greenbeans

PM 3-4 medallions, 1/8 cup greenbeans dab of yogurt, pumpkin

Late night snack: @1/8 cup royal canin kibble while we do tricks (he will not touch kibble left out except very very very rarely.

Thoughts? (just so you know- I will not do chicken necks or cow pelvis')


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

Missy said:


> Thoughts? (just so you know- I will not do chicken necks or cow pelvis')


Darn there goes my suggestion  Are they more likely to eat the kibble if you mix a little canned food in with it? You could use a filling low Cal dog food with a tablespoon of canned mixed in to make it seem more appealing. There are some pretty decent canned foods out there. Do they eat all the other stuff (pumpkin, yogurt, etc.) without complaint? Maybe they are waiting for more of that stuff? I am assuming they get plenty of exercise and that isn't the problem. What I did with my dog is figure out how many calories the vet said he sould have and match that with how much I fed him of the food I chose instead of the W/D. Figure out how many calories you are feeding them in a day and maybe reduce it by 5-10% and see how that works. Just try to find more filling less caloric foods. A little bit bigger scoop of this and larger handful of that and the calories could be adding up. I am sure you know all of this but there is so much more emotion involved when it is our own dogs.


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

I keep going back to the (Havanese-All breed) Profession Handler/Trainer that gave us a session on grooming and care. When ask about food and supplements he was adamant about feeding Pro Plan by Purina with no additives. He said all of his dogs are on it, personal and clients. The group asks about picky eaters, skin conditions, hair loss, etc., he doesn't have any, he strongly suggested we cause most of these problems by continuing to change and look for something better for our dogs. Put the food down, if they don’t eat it, take it up. Smarty’s coat was beautiful before I changed from Pro Plan to the Natural Balance Duck and Potato. I’m buying another bag and can of Pro Plan and seeing if the itching starts back. 

Not sure I helped but I am tired of worrying about her eating, when I know she is healthy and will eat when she gets hungry enough. Right now we have let her train us to some extent and it is time for her to be treated like a dog.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Hi Missy!

Wow, you sure have been doing lots of thinking about your boys eating situation!
Do you cut up the medallions for your guys? (I do for Beams) If so, you will notice that there are small/medium bone fragments in there, so they are not pulverised to the point being a powder.. so the heating of them does pose some risks I would think..
I was giving Beamer 6 medallions a day, but he was getting a chubby belly! lol.. So we cut it down to 4 a day and he is much better now. He also gets the raw meaty bones which last him 3 days to finish usually. When I feed him a brand new bone I give him less medalions that day since he is mainly taking all the meat off the bone the first day.. meaty bones are great for them! We have NEVER brushed his teeth since we got him and he still has puppy breath and perfect teeth,. 
As far a scoat goes, that all depends on your dogs, they are all different. The raw improved Beamers coat as advertised...but I guess some dogs will get the reverse effect?

You know, I stopped feeding beamer the chicken necks as I was getting scared he would choke on them since he was starting to eat them so fast.. Sometimes I do not think he was even chewing.. Maybe I will try them again later on..

And as far as feeding them so many veggies? Not sure if dogs really need them? Wild animals eat the contents of its preys stomach..so they get a bit of veggies by default. But you would never see a wild dog grazing in a veggie garden..i think...

Sorry for the long message! lol

Ryan


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

SMARTY said:


> Right now we have let her train us to some extent and it is time for her to be treated like a dog.


ha ha ha, you know those were my thoughts too until this latest warning...They have trained me...LOL So smarty was itching on the pro plan? Both my boys came to me eating pro plan. Jasper refused to eat it and we had some starving himself problems when he was little (literally- he would vomit bile because he was hungry) that is what started all this mixing and matching.

Then when Cash came-- you can't feed one medallions and the other pro plan-- even in different rooms- their noses know...so here we are. it's funny but now Jasper is less finicky than Cash.


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

I keep thinking to myself to just go back to Pro Plan. My two other dogs were completely fine on it. It wasn't until I got Mirabel and read all the food stuff on this forum that I decided it wasn't good enough. Since then I have tried so much stuff. I think I will stick with California Naturals for now if they have more calories per cup than the light brand of pro plan. For Mirabel, I should just pick a food and stick with it since she likes everything. 

If Smarty was itching on the Pro Plan try the turkey and barley maybe? I used that for a cat that had stomache issues and she did really well on it. It's when I first started using Pro Plan 20 years ago.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Mirabel's mom. is your name Anne? Sorry to have ruined your suggestion-LOL- As far as exercise they get a mile to two mike walk every morning and can run and play out back any time they want- which sometimes they do and sometime they lie around like logs-- they are pretty low energy boys. and they get a few shorter potty break walks on days we are home. 

Ryan, how could you possibly apologize for a long post? after my post....LOL
Yes we cut medallions up both cooked and raw. The veggies are to fill cash up- and plump Jaspers poo (fiber) But then I noticed that Jasper has more energy when he does eat kibble--so I started adding the potatoes to his. 

I think it was Tom who said he put all of his back on Pro Plan... But boy did Cash like his poop on that


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Missy,

I love Fromm's. Not only has Milo been on it from the start, but the other two who were used to supermarket foods (Purina One or Beneful) all do very well on it. If yours won't eat it you might want to consider getting the low fat gravy and mix a little in. Here's a link to it.
http://www.atyourdoorpetstore.com/product_info.php?products_id=364&osCsid=ldfqi6q37t33jl3agmmourn0d3


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

I have had dogs all my life, most lived to be rather old for their breeds and have NEVER worried as much about food as I have with Smarty. I also have read so much on the Forum that I felt I needed to make more changes. We have half a case of the NB Duck and Potato cans and a new small bag of the dry. I'm going to get the Pro plan to start adding this week-end, I'll let you know in a few weeks how it is going.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Oh gosh, Missy! lol I certainly wish I had an answer, thought or suggestion for you..but I DO understand your frustration!!! lol That is why we are on the homecooked route, atleast now I control the quality and ingredients that she eats. lol, I have far less headaches this way.

Maybe you could mix a canned food in with the Fromms and trick them into liking it? heh. I had to put shredded cheese on Gucci's Fromms!

Kara


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

Yes, I remember Tom saying he put all his dogs back on Pro Plan cause he found his dogs were lacking vitamin D on the Fromms. Were you giving the pineapple with the pro plan? That is supposed to make them not eat it right? I know there are other anti poo eating supplements out there but not sure what they are. Thank god I never had that problem either!


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Oh, the melted shredded cheese on the fromms trick eh?? lol.. only worked for a couple weeks for 'ol beamer...lol


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Missy, if you think her knowledge and opinion is valuable, I think you should just hire her for a consulation.

Frankly, I think it is sweet of you to put so much thought into this, but I'm concerned that you are going to worry yourself to death over your boys.

I resolved long ago that I would not get into the crazy feeding worries and have been a Kibble Mom. There is so much research that goes into these foods that I just did some simple research to rule out a few. I'd go back to Pro Plan, but it doesn't work for one of my dogs, and I am not going to do separate foods for each of my dogs, so they are all on Fromm. Fromm works well for all of mine (with a pump of salmon oil for the one that needs the additional oil), and they are all thriving outwardly (activity, coat, skin, anal glands and teeth), so we're sticking with it.

I think you should just find what is going to work for you, but only if it doesn't keep worrying you.  I don't know if that even makes any sense. LOL!


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## CinnCinn (Mar 30, 2007)

Missy, You are NOT alone! I have done the same worrying since I got Rudy over a year ago. I'm in the same place you are with my 2 boys! It is so frustrating!!! My Rocky has an alergy to something - I'm thinking chicken. I can not tell you how much time, money and energy I've spent on their diet. Urgh! :frusty: What can I say, (stating the obvious) I love them, I want them to be healthy & happy and I want them to really enjoy their meals. Eating is one of the highlights of their day! I've even kept a journal of the different foods I've tried with a YES, Kinda, and No column. ound:

What I've learned:
1. They loved raw for about 3 months, then REFUSED to eat it. 
2. They'll eat their kibble when mixed with a little canned food.
3. They presently love the Freeze dried raw - Venison. It's really pricey.

My Plan: Consultant with the woman that you're recommending and LIGHTEN UP! I firmly believe they've got me trainined, but darn it, I can't look at them without melting. 

There is another thread on Grading Dog Food - The grading formula gave ProPlan an A+.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Awwww! I am a simple eat your kibble or go hungry girl and it works for my two. Belle is a huge manipulation fan so I knew better than getting involved. To this day if we are out and about too much, Belle will go all day with out eating any kibble in order to get a chance at people food, treats, etc. I think if it were up to her, she would eat hot dogs everyday. So I just leave the kibble out and my vet was right- she eats when she is hungry. While she has always been low in weight (but if you meet her you understand why- she doesnt sit down). What I do in the morning is mix some kibble, seameal, eggs, veggies together and she usually eats most of it. However, the rest of the day she is on her own with the kibble.

Dora on the otherhand, eats most kibbles but has a sensitive stomach- too much of a bad thing can cause runs and she is a meat eater, she loves beef! But she will eat her kibble as well!

I received a sample pack of Eukanuba high energy or something like that. I would imagine it wouldnt be a good food for weight loss but the girls went crazy over it. However, I like quality and feed Fromms now!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Havtahava said:


> Missy, if you think her knowledge and opinion is valuable, I think you should just hire her for a consulation.
> 
> Frankly, I think it is sweet of you to put so much thought into this, but I'm concerned that you are going to worry yourself to death over your boys.


Kimberly, my DH feels the same way---he just says what are we feeding them NOW? when it's his turn to feed them---LOL. I think I am going to hire her, but in the end it's just another opinion-- I love that I have access to so many ideas from people with havanese. Thanks for your concern though. this may be a "Oh Darn, I forgot to have Kids" trait in me.



CinnCinn said:


> Missy, You are NOT alone! .....Eating is one of the highlights of their day! I've even kept a journal of the different foods I've tried with a YES, Kinda, and No column. ound:
> 
> What I've learned:
> 1. They loved raw for about 3 months, then REFUSED to eat it.
> ...


Cindy, I would love to see that spread sheet!!! the frieze dried are very expensive My boys don't care for them. Ziwi Peak thinking I could just add some in as an enticement-- Boy is it expensive. What Kibbles are in the YES Column?

Amanda, thanks for your experience too. So you add to Belle's in the am to make sure she gets something in her stomach and then she's on her own?

Maybe I will try something like that with the boys-- feed them something in the am I know they will eat and then just put a big bowl of Kibble out. I know Jasper will eat it if he is hungry. Maybe Cash will come around and if he doesn't well that right there is a weight loss plan...


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Missy- that is exactly what I do, I will tell you there are many times where Belle sees us getting ready for bed and then she goes and eats right before we go to bed. I am not sure about if you can leave kibble out all the time if you have an overweight dog though- might be something to really watch. Belle is under weight and Dora is pretty thin- she is 11lbs at 10 1/2 inches so I think she is good but she could probably but on weight but she is pretty active and still young- only 3. I might have to try something else in the future. But the vet told me to leave it out all the time and a healthy dog won't starve itself. The morning thing is just to make sure Belle eats. She usually gobbles it down actually. Might be something to try. I think it might take some time for them and remember, they can go a day without eating as much as it pains us. I just learned if it was up to Belle to pick her lunch, she would probably eat mcdonalds everyday! 

Amanda


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Why should belle be any different than the rest of the children in america.... Yummm micky-d's!!!


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Missy,
I'm sure there are true picky eaters in dogs, but I also think that a lot of picky eaters get out of hand because their owners love them so much and want to please them somehow. Pablo is on Purina Pro Plan as well and started refusing it for 1.5 days. I picked it up after 20 min each time and now he loves it again. If I were you, I'd choose one kibble that's OK for both and STICK TO IT. Give it a try...I seriously doubt that they will go without food for more than 3 days and since both have enough on their ribs you won't be risking their health if they decided to refuse their food for a couple of days.

Sandi, when you say Smarty was itchy, does that mean she was scratching A LOT, like most of the time? Pablo does scratch himself a few times a day (2-3x) with a passion and I have to say 'that's enough' cause it makes me all itchy too, LOL. Don't know if that's related to his food or just regular doggy behavior...


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

I never worried about what I fed my other dogs and they were both happy, healthy dogs. The only time they went to the vet was once a year for shots and well care visits. They were not overweight. Their diet consisted of Might Dog canned and Purina kibble plus table food. 

So, as long as I can get food into my two Havs, I am happy. I am feeding them good kibble and they still get Little Cesars added so they will eat. I also give them chicken, beef, turkey, fish, depending on what I have made for dinner that night. 

I know some dogs have problems like allergies and you have to put them on special food. That's understandable. We don't have a problem, so I don't sweat it anymore. This food thing has taken on a life of it's own and mine. As long as it is not poisoned, recalled or whatever, then I am sticking with what I am feeding them now.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I was in an agiltiy class with an obnoxious woman who really liked Belle. She became obnoxious cause she encouraged Belle to visit. But I know there are a lot of distractions at obedience and agility trials so Belle needed to be prepared. I brought left over dinner some of Belle's favorites- steak, chicken, etc. I had everything! Belle still kept going over to visit this lady and ofcourse a few times, Belle took the treat out of her hand. Well I found out she was using microwaved hot dogs. So the next week, I had those as well  Let's just say my junk food hound- never even looked back at that lady! While I only gave in a little to give it to her. Everyone laughed when I started trialing Belle- guess what I had in my bag to remind her Mommy loves her!

Amanda


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

Amanda do you think tofu dogs would work just as well?! 

Everyone teases me at agility about poor Miss Posh living in a family of vegetarians.

My mom brings chunks of cooked meat for me to give to Posh during training. Boy is she happy and I'm focusing so much on her that I don't mind having the meat in every pocket!  

I truly forget that meat is an option for dinner, it's been so long....and this is coming from a gal who worked at a coffee house right next to a little pool hall and who ate at the pool hall with the old guys at the counter every day for lunch. And what did I eat every day? Two all beef hot dogs with Tiny's sauce (Tiny's was the the name of this fine establishment.)!


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## JanB (Oct 26, 2007)

Tessa will ditch me in a nanosecond for a hot dog! LOL! One of the obedience instructors had hot dogs in her pocket at every class and it was difficult to keep Tessa focused on me. 

Amy, I eat vegan most of the time and I did try the vegan hot dogs. Unfortunately they are too soft and mushy to cut up in small pieces for training. I will probably cave in and buy hot dogs for training. Right now Tessa will work for Bailey's jerky. She LOVES that stuff! But I need some different value foods.

Missy, don't feel bad, I think all of us are trying to do right for our dogs re food because we love them so much. And we know more now about dog nutrition so we try to do better. I had my Sheltie on Science Diet. I figured if the vet sold it it must be good. Now I know it's garbage. 16 yrs ago we didn't have the internet with the wealth of information we now have. She did live over 15 yrs and was in excellent health up till one month before she died (except for typical age-related conditions like arthritis). So, who knows? 

I feed Tessa the NV raw medallions for one meal. I hand feed it so she doesn't get her face yucky. (oh and I wear food service gloves, I can't stand to touch raw meat) It also gives me an opportunity to make her work for her food. The other meal I give her different kibbles. I mix it up as far as the dry kibble and use different brands. I don't know if I'm doing it "right" but she seems to love it, esp the NV.

Good luck working it all out. I think you are a wonderful Hav Mommy.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Hot dogs have always been my class training treats! Kubrick loves them, though I think he loves Bailey's Jerky just as much.  I don't use them in class, though, as it takes him too long to eat one whereas he inhales the hot dog pieces, LOL.


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## Lilly's mom (Aug 10, 2007)

SMARTY said:


> I keep going back to the (Havanese-All breed) Profession Handler/Trainer that gave us a session on grooming and care. When ask about food and supplements he was adamant about feeding Pro Plan by Purina with no additives. He said all of his dogs are on it, personal and clients. The group asks about picky eaters, skin conditions, hair loss, etc., he doesn't have any, he strongly suggested we cause most of these problems by continuing to change and look for something better for our dogs. Put the food down, if they don't eat it, take it up. Smarty's coat was beautiful before I changed from Pro Plan to the Natural Balance Duck and Potato. I'm buying another bag and can of Pro Plan and seeing if the itching starts back.
> 
> Not sure I helped but I am tired of worrying about her eating, when I know she is healthy and will eat when she gets hungry enough. Right now we have let her train us to some extent and it is time for her to be treated like a dog.


I did this same thing about 2 weeks ago for the same reason. I need to worry more about my children then my dog.


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## JanB (Oct 26, 2007)

Lina said:


> Hot dogs have always been my class training treats! Kubrick loves them, though I think he loves Bailey's Jerky just as much.  I don't use them in class, though, as it takes him too long to eat one whereas he inhales the hot dog pieces, LOL.


Lina, I hold the jerky in my cheek where it rehydrates and I can give teeny tiny pieces of it. It works well and doesn't taste bad either  The other night the instructor was going to demonstrate something with Tessa and asked me for a bit of her treat to use. Um....I don't think she wanted it when she found out where I stored it. I had to go to my purse and get a dry piece. LOL!


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Jan, too funny about where you store your jerky. I do agree about Bailey's Jerky. Yummy says MeMe.


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

I haven't found a thing Tori won't try to do for Bailey's Jerky. When she knows I have it, she will run through her litany of tricks to try to get it. ound:


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

The only way I can get Shelby to come in the house is to show her the Bailey's Jerky. I think Karen puts something addictive in that stuff. Kodi loves it, but Shelby LOVES IT! When she sees me get the bag, she sits and cries until she gets a piece.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Amy- she wouldn't eat turkey dogs so no chance on tofu! The greasier and more gross the better! All time favorite are the ones at the gas station left over from the day before- just ask me next time we have to be at an obedience trial at 7am and i forgot Belle's treat! 

Jan- I didn't want to tell anyone that trick cause you guys would make fun of me for eating Bailey's jerky!

Amanda


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Missy,

When feeding raw or home cooked the formula for the amount of food to feed is: 2% to 4% of your dog's ideal weight.


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

I recently was encouraged by my vet to switch Winston to Hills Prescription Diet d/d duck and potato kibble. I wasn't happy about it due to my feelings about Hills products, but agreed to give it a shot. Well of course eventually the other two dogs have gotten bites of the d/d and much to my dismay....they all LOVE it!!! :frusty: Grrrr!!! If I put a tiny bit of hot water on it and let it set for 30 seconds first...they're in heaven! I really don't want to buy a second bag of the d/d, but it's so frustrating seeing how much they like it.

Beverly


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I wouldn't worry Beverly. The prescription diets are much better. and there is a lot more science behind the SD than a lot of the trendier foods. If they like it that is a big thing.

Julia so that formula would be ounces? thanks for that

I found this calorie needscalculator 
http://www.mycockerspaniel.com/mer.htm

the odd thing is my boys don't eat that many calories a day-- so why is Cash a pudge? I even figured in 20 Canz Real Meat Treats a day--- they never get that many.

But I have to say-- it's been 2 1/2 days since I have started feeding the medallions raw. I have not seen much difference in Cash (other than wolfing down the food) But Jasper is absolutely bubbly. After he eats he is all about play-- he has never been that way. Cash of course is delighted to have a play mate instead of his grumpy old brother. Could be co-incidence... we will see...

Those of you who feed raw- how do you clean their faces after they eat?

thanks for all the advice.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Hey Missy,

When I first started feeding Raw, I'd wash beamers face/beard with paper towel/water/soap... I guess i was being neurotic.. Presently I do not clean his face at all.. i think he likes it better this way.. lol

Ryan


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

well of course HE likes it better that way!!!! Ryan, what are you doing hanging out on the forum on the Beamer's B-day? Go throw him a bone!!! ha ha ha. 

Happy B-day Beamer!!!


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## JanB (Oct 26, 2007)

Missy, I hand feed the NV so her face doesn't get messy and it's an opportunity to work on sit, down, spin, stand, etc.


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Missy,

I can't imagine counting calories for my dogs, I just go by the formula I gave you and weigh them once every few weeks at my vets to make sure we are on track.


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

maryam187 said:


> Sandi, when you say Smarty was itchy, does that mean she was scratching A LOT, like most of the time? Pablo does scratch himself a few times a day (2-3x) with a passion and I have to say 'that's enough' cause it makes me all itchy too, LOL. Don't know if that's related to his food or just regular doggy behavior...


Smarty was scratching her face quite a bit. Vet said put her on the very pricey dog food she had at the clinic. I opted to buy Natural Balance, same ingredience just not so costly. I really think her problem is chicken, whch I used a lot as treats.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Can someone help me with the math? So if Cash should weigh 18 lbs how many onces of raw or home cooked should I be feeding him? I feel like a total ditz...is it 18 X .2 or .4? which comes up with 3.6oz-7.2oz does that sound right?

In my search I just found this new product Deli Fresh that may be a good alternative to raw-- or home cooked if you find yourself in a pinch... it is lightly cooked and refrigerated. It comes in rolls and "fresh bites" looks like it has in it what i have been adding to the raw.

http://www.delifreshpet.com/products/index.htm

I had tried the roll before- but my boys don't like turkey very much--so i just got the "beef fresh bites" They come with two 14 once pouches-- so by that calculation above-- my boys together would eat one pouch a day?

I'll let you all know if they like it.


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

My dogs tried this one (we got a few free rolls as samples) and liked it a lot. If they don't like the other brand maybe this one tastes different.

http://www.homestyleselect.com/


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Missy, you actually multiply 18lbs by 0.02 (which I think you did do) and it gives you 0.36lbs, not ounces. That's actually 5.76oz. If you multiply by 0.04 it's 0.72lbs which equals 11.52oz. Hope that helps!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

thanks Lina!!!


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

irnfit said:


> The only way I can get Shelby to come in the house is to show her the Bailey's Jerky. I think Karen puts something addictive in that stuff. Kodi loves it, but Shelby LOVES IT! When she sees me get the bag, she sits and cries until she gets a piece.


Michele~ Tori loves Bailey's Jerky so much I've started allowing her to come out front with me off leash. Before we go out, I just show her the jerky bag, give her a tiny taste, and from then on her eyes are glued to me. She wouldn't think of leaving my side as long as I have that bag in my hand ound:


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

You know, Missy. You aren't the only one feeling confused, worried and frustrated! We can pretty much all sympathize.  I work at a health food store for dogs, as you likely know already, and often ask myself what is best and maybe I should try another food, etc... 

I agree that if your dogs are fine, have no health issues, or behavior problems, then something like Fromm's, Praire (Nat. Var.) and Natural Balance are very good foods. Even better, is when the dogs don't care about sticking with the same kibble for a long while. I agree, dogs are dogs and maybe we are making mountains out of mole hills.

BUT, when you have weight issues, health problems - like liver and/or kidney - and allergies then you have to consider the ingdts. and quality of the food. Otherwise, you might be exacerbating their problem(s) when it could be avoided. 

As to the N.V's Raw medallions, I had no idea it was 'risky' to cook them because of the minced bone in there. I don't believe it's dangerous because of splintering or choking, not one bit... but what you're saying is that the content of animal bone changes when it's cooked and that is what might be risky for the dogs' digestion. I will have to check out your links and see about that. We sell the Raw at the store and I, like you, have cooked it from time to time to add to kibble. I also feed it raw once in a while and the dogs love it! I just wipe their beards and mouth with a damp paper towel and wash everything else up with hot, soapy water. I'm not going to panic about possible bacteria. The owner of the store, though, says that cooking the Raw Medallions changes the enzymes and doesn't provide as much good nutrition.... but if you're just crumbling it with kibble to get the dogs to eat, then I don't see the harm.

Okay, so it looks like my post is as long as yours or longer...... are you surprised?? LOL I agree that if you can get away with a good kibble (like Fromm's, Innova, Prairie, Solid Gold) with a touch of canned mixed into it, then that sounds pretty easy, safe and tasty. Go for it! If you want to pursue feeding raw, then I think that's great too! I think that what happened to Helen's Oreo was an exception and I wouldn't worry about that. You will see signs if either of your dogs really has a problem with raw. 

Because of Ricky's liver ALT being so very high, he's now eating Fromm's and because of Sammy's intolerance to grain (he bites his paws like crazy), I feed him Orijen. I am mixing high quality canned (Evo, Solid Gold and Merrick) and sometimes things I have in the fridge. I was trying a fussy diet for Ricky, bought a ton of supplements and special ingdts. and after 6 days, I was fed up and he wasn't eating any of it...... sigh...... so.... if we can keep it SIMPLE, then why not?


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Missy,

Deli Fresh rolls was one of the many alternatives I tried with Beamer.. He ate a few bites duing the first feeding and never looked at it agian.. lol..

lol

Ryan


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

Missy,

I would try to slipt the difference and feed Cash 3% of his ideal body weight (or 3% of 18 lbs) which would be 8.64 oz of food a day. Do that for a week or two and weigh him again. If he is not loosing weight fast enough go to 2 or 2.5%. You will figure out the ideal amount to feed for weight loss or for maintenance.

Good luck.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Ryan, and I think the Deli fresh would work out to be more expensive than the Medallions too... But I won't tell the boys Beamer didn't like it. I've already thawed the NV for tonight so won't know the results til tomorrow. Love the idea of it though, not raw, not canned, not kibble and I would get to just put it in a bowl, no adding stuff. But all that doesn't matter if it they won't touch it. 

Marj, you must go crazy actually working in a pet store...I would be 2nd guessing myself daily... As I am right now, because Cash is itching something awful. So what's different? humm-- royal canin weight care (although they have always had RC kibble for treats-) pumpkin, and feeding the medallions raw.... I hope the Fromm's works for Ricky- when does he get tested again?
My boys wouldn't touch the orijen...so so funny what they will and will not eat.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Missy said:


> Marj, you must go crazy actually working in a pet store...I would be 2nd guessing myself daily... As I am right now, because Cash is itching something awful. So what's different? humm-- royal canin weight care (although they have always had RC kibble for treats-) pumpkin, and feeding the medallions raw....


Kodi is itching like mad right now. No diet changes, still eating the same foods as always. But, I have very itchy eyes and am very congested, so I know allergy season is starting for me. Maybe for Kodi too. I keep checking for fleas, too, and did find one on him, but no flea dirt. So maybe he got bit and is just having a reaction. I'm not changing his food. And Shelby scratches a little, so I'm thinking fleas. **** cats keep bringing them in.


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

All I can add to this is "ARGHH". This week we have been giving them Mother Hubbards new canned varieties made by Wellness. They eat some, ignore some, and get the runs from some. However, they are always ready for "people food". That makes me think I've created two picky eaters. I think they are about to get an education on eating what I put down! Try as I may to not let them know they are dogs, they actually are!!! LMAO
xxoox
Carole


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

I just went out to get more food today and discovered that my local store is now carrying Fromms, so I got some samples of the duck, salmon and new grain free variety (salmon, chicken). I also got the canned duck - I've been dying to try Fromms. So now I have my chance. Unfortunately for those of you with potato allergies, I noticed that the grain free does use potato.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

juliav said:


> Missy,
> 
> I would try to slipt the difference and feed Cash 3% of his ideal body weight (or 3% of 18 lbs) which would be 8.64 oz of food a day. Do that for a week or two and weigh him again. If he is not loosing weight fast enough go to 2 or 2.5%. You will figure out the ideal amount to feed for weight loss or for maintenance.
> 
> Good luck.


Here's the thing, I have done a very elaborate calculation of the calories he needs to maintain 18 lbs (he is now 21.5) and now the onces. And I went and counted every morsel we feed Cash, even the tsp of yogurt and pumpkin and treats-- I calculated for giving him 20 treats a day, which we never do. and he is eating the calories he is supposed to need-- so why is he over weight? Now I know what you are thinking.... you must be giving him more... and we do (i admit it) give him tiny, tiny, pencil head size pieces of what ever we are eating at dinner... but 2 of these tiny morsels tops.

So the days allotment below is 562 calories and he rarely eats the RC kibble- so without that he is only eating @ 470 calories a day-- And five medallions that's only 5 onces.

The calculator I found says he needs between 511-639 for 18lbs. DH takes both of them for a 2 mile walk almost every morning and they play outback all day. Neither of them are hyper, in fact quite laid back...And he is always hungry... Could he have something wrong with him? thyroid? diabetes? Could he be getting calories outside when they play? Or is he just his human momma's dog?

562 Calories 
1/4c royal canin 96 cal
5 Medallions 325 cal
1/4 cup Green Beans 20 cal 
2 tsp Yogurt 36 cal
2 tsp Pumpkin 21 cal
1/8 cup Potato (Jasper only) 14 cal
20 treats 50 cal


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

I hate to say this cause I don't want you to worry. It may just be that he needs just a little less than the calculators say. My dog who kept gaining weight did end up having a very low thyroid. But my dog has ended up about twice what he should weigh, it was obvious something was wrong. Yours don't seem that overweight. Take what they say you need to feed to maintain the correct weight and feed 10% less and see if that helps. It could also be winter weight and will come off when the weahter is nicer. My dogs don't get to run as much during the winter and it shows.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Anne, thanks for that info to store away. I will keep it in the back of my head for Cash. Jasper is not overweight, Just Cash. How was your dog diagnosed? Did you end up putting your dog on medication? and did that help?


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

So tonight, the boys tried the Deli Fresh Beef and vegetable dinner... I opened the package and quartered it and put it in the bowls --- and brought it in to show DH how good it looked. Well the boys started sniffing... and sniffing ...and sniffing. I put Cash's down first, and Jasper actually stayed and tried to eat out of Cash's bowl. Now this sounds like normal dog behavior. But Jasper usually runs and hides when I prepare dinner-- and then with a wide arc will sniff in the general direction of Cash's bowl (to make sure Cash isn't getting anything better) but makes his way over to his bowl in another room and waits til I shut the door. Both ate at the same speed.

Now tomorrow may be totally different... and they could decide otherwise. But I am sure hoping they like it-- it would be so easy for me to be able to just open up a package. What I like about it is as if someone took how I doctor the raw (minus the bones) and lightly cooked it and packaged it. It is refrigerated not frozen-- so you have to go get it more frequently (but let's face it, I am always at the pet store.) The ingredients look great!! the only one that I have any question with is the maltodextrins, and it does also have salt-- but it is low on the ingredients list.

It is about the same price as the natures variety medallions, not cheap, but that;s what I have been doing and I don't have to add veggies or potatos for Jasper- and I won't have to worry about the raw thing. And it may be easier to know exactly how much they are eating. They woud each get 7 onces a day on this.

So I will keep you posted if it is a continued success. But I would say tonight it got 8 paws and 4 thumbs up.

Here's the link if you want to check it out

http://www.delifreshpet.com/products/bites-bvd.htm

and I thought this was a neat graph.

Sorry guys to bring you into my obsession. But you've come this far- thought I would share the results of my research.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Missy,

Hope your guys continue to eat it! I thought it was great..smelled good..looked good.. not to soft, not to hard.. but Beamer never liked it for some reason.. not that I was shocked or anything..lol

Goodluck!!! 

Ryan


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Missy wrote: *"Marj, you must go crazy actually working in a pet store...I would be 2nd guessing myself daily... " ".... I hope the Fromm's works for Ricky- when does he get tested again?
My boys wouldn't touch the orijen...so so funny what they will and will not eat."*

*** I did go nuts for a while and only just started to 'calm down' and stop the questioning. I spent my first weeks working there, reading the literature on all the products, and books on home-cooking, pet nutrition, alternative medecine........ ARGH ! A person can go crazy over it sometimes! lol

I switched to Fromm's because of the high protein content in Orijen and Ricky loves it. So does Sammy, but he reacts to it whereas he is fine with Orijen... which he eats, but isn't crazy about. He's always trying to steal Ricky's Fromm's and Ricky is trying to get at Sammy's Orijen! :brick: I have to watch them, can't trust them for one minute and put up the bowls when they walk away.

I'm planning on getting Ricky's ALT tested again next week.

That Deli stuff looks YUMMY! If it makes all your lives easier and is great for the pooches, then why not? At one point, we have to step back and just let dogs be dogs and hope for the best. I'm sure Cash will lighten up a bit once the weather improves.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Me&2Girls said:


> I just went out to get more food today and discovered that my local store is now carrying Fromms, so I got some samples of the duck, salmon and new grain free variety (salmon, chicken). I also got the canned duck - I've been dying to try Fromms. So now I have my chance. Unfortunately for those of you with potato allergies, I noticed that the grain free does use potato.


Lisa, out of curiosity since we live near each other, which store is it? Do they only have the "a la Veg" line?


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

Missy said:


> The calculator I found says he needs between 511-639 for 18lbs.


Hi Missy,

Lincoln is also 18 pounds and I find that he needs about 450 cals/day to maintain his trim figure :biggrin1: He would definitely pork out on 639 cals/day!

The range is probably depending on how much exercise they get. Lincoln probably gets a typical amount of Hav exercise (RLHs, romping with Scout, rolling over for belly rubs....) :biggrin1:


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Missy, I already wrote to you privately, but I'll post it here too:
I had my first litter on Pro Plan with Deli Fresh added into the food and I sent each puppy home with a roll to get them started (and a list of retailers in their area that carried it).

At the time, the Deli Fresh was being made outside the U.S. (Australia maybe?) and it bothered me to think about the quality with the long travel for distribution. You might want to see if you can find out where it is made now, if they have moved it stateside. I see the local contact number is now located in New Jersey.

The second problem that was the end for me is that retailers here weren't selling enough to restock it and I kept finding that the food had already expired when I went to go buy it, even when I drove to stores that were quite a distance.

The good thing is that the company is good at answering emails if you have questions. They were a little slow, but thorough and personal.

I hope this helps.

Kimberly​
I was shredding it straight out of the tube on top of the Pro Plan and everyone loved it (adults & pups) and gobbled it up immediately. It looks like it has the same response from Jasper & Cash.

By the way, just so everyone else knows, you should repeat the part you found out today about them being modeled after the Australian company and being made locally now.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

yes. Here is what I found out Deli Fresh- they modeled themselves after the Australian company but made all from local food locally in PA. I also have a letter into them asking if they feel they can supply the demand. I'll keep you posted. but here is an article I found.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/04302007...paul_tharp.htm


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Jane, thanks for that specific Calorie tip. I thought these menus I had been planning for them was more food than I had been giving them. 

Marj, yes I am hoping that this Deli Fresh let's me just throw it in a bowl and let them just be dogs.


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Missy, that article says the page cannot be found! I think you can't link it for some reason? Could you just quote it for us here? I'm curious as to what it says.

Thanks!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Here you go.



> By PAUL THARP New York Post
> 
> CHOW TIME: Precooked food for pets helps take some of the high anxiety out of doggie's dinner.
> 
> ...


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Thanks, Missy! I might have to try it out for Kubrick's dinner topper once my Evanger's cans have run out.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Has anyone ever tried Spot's Stew? I just bought a can. They carry it at Petco now. I haven't opened it yet. I thought I'd try it tonight and see what it looks like and see if the girls like it.


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

Yes, I posted it on another thread (Evangers). My dogs like it and I liked the all natural ingredients. It is very expensive though. I did find a place online that was cheaper and 4.95 shipping. I might try getting more from there.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Thanks Ann. I'm anxious to try it. It was on sale at Petco the other day. I hadn't seen it there before. It'll be the first time they get canned food. I decided to try the canned first so that I'm not stuck with a bag of kibble that they won't touch. Of course, I have one that is very picky and one that would eat just about anything.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Anne, I saw the Evangers at my local pet store the other day and was shocked at the price. I think they wanted $3.50 for the tiny all-meat cans. I think they were only charging $1.00 at the Evanger booth at the dog show we attended. Maybe that is why they ran out of all of it before the show was even half over!

Susan, was it the Evanger's you saw at PetCo? Do you recall the price? If so, did you see the full-sized cans (dinners) or the small all-meat cans?


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

> Susan, was it the Evanger's you saw at PetCo


No, it was definitely Spot's Stew.


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## anneks (Mar 13, 2007)

OOOOOOH, I need to go to more shows if they have food that cheap lol. Though with Purina being local here I am sure that is most of what you would find.


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Boy if you can pick up dog food at a show, it's so much cheaper. I got a $17 bag of food for $5. Wish I'd picked up a whole lot more now!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

You know, I did not really read this thoroughly, but thought I would throw it out there for you raw feeders as this is one of the things they think may be wrong with Cash. And he did come down with these symptoms after we switched from cooking the medallions to feeding them raw.

http://www.naturalholistic.com/handouts/neospora.htm

I also guess I want to reneg my recommendation of the Deli Fresh, for two reasons. One, Both boys stopped eating it after a day and a half ---and two, well Cash's odd ailment also happened after that.


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