# Ticks, Tick prevention and the Hemangiosarcoma Connection



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

In another thread, we were discussing a dog with high ALT who was being taken off Nexgard (a FEED THROUGH flea and tick preventative) as a result. (good idea)



mudpuppymama said:


> Ticks are frustrating. We have lots here as well. Everyone needs to decide what is best for them. I decided that the ticks are preferable to the “preventatives”.


A year or two ago, I would have been in full agreement. My feelings are more guarded now, having a friend lose her "heart dog", (Ducky's grandma) at the tender age of not-quite 8 to Hemangiosarcoma. This deadly cancer has become more and more common in dogs in recent years. Even though it is more prevalent in large/medium size breeds (and I have a theory about THAT!) It kills the little ones too, as proven by dear Fire.










What does that have to do with ticks and tick meds you might ask? 

Well, it turns out that a LARGE percentage of Hemangiosarcoma tissue contains Bartonella bacteria and NONE of the dogs tested had Bartonella, which is another tick borne disease, in their bloodstreams. The disease had been hiding, in stealth, in their tissues for years, just waiting to cause this horrendous, incurable cancer. Sound worse than Lyme? In my book, it is. Lyme we can recognize and DO something about. You might never KNOW your dog has this ticking time bomb inside them until they bleed out in your arms.

Here's an article from NC State on the subject. Feel free to do an internet deep dive if you'd like: Bartonella Bacteria Found in Hemangiosarcoma Tumors from Dogs - NC State Veterinary Medicine

So... What to do. Like MPM, I used to have a higher tolerance for ticks and a MUCH lower tolerance for the dangers of tick preventatives. They ARE poisons. Make no mistake. But there are NO medications that we use on ourselves or our pets that do not have potential adverse reactions, and everyone has to do their own risk/benefit analysis. 

Because of the NUMBER of dogs I know in my area that have died tragically, and young, of Hemangio, among my close friends, INCLUDING small dogs, I have completely changed my view on tick prevention. And some of what I've changed pains me. 

Here is my non-chemical management. Between the ticks and the coyotes, I rarely hike my dogs in the woods anymore, and NEVER in fields, a place that used to at least be safe from coyotes. Our fenced dog yard is kept scrupulously cleaned of fallen leaves and brush, both inside and around the outside of the fence. Fortunately, the stone walls and wooded areas of the property are well away from the dog yard, which tends to keep mice far away. The dogs almost never pick up ticks in the yard. My dogs are all combed thoroughly at the end of the day during the "tick" part of the year, and if they have been on a walk outside the yard, as soon as we get home, TO THE SKIN. This is ESPECIALLY important on Pixel and on Kodi's black head, where they are very hard to see. Doing this, I USUALLY can get any ticks before they can even attach; certainly before they feed.

NOW, the chemicals. Which I hate, but I use. I would still never use a feed-through (pill) like Nexgard. They have too high an adverse reaction profile and they are too new. I stick to older, better known topical products. My personal choice for my dogs, in my geographic area is Advantix II. I have used this for over 10 years now. It works well and my dogs have all tolerated it well. (and that is NOT to say that some dogs DON'T have adverse reactions to this one too!) I choose this one because, to my knowledge, it is the ONLY product that is a repellent as well as killing the ticks. This is important to me, because Kodi has a TERRIBLE reaction to the tick bites themselves. Any tick bite turns into a hard volcano-like sore that takes weeks to resolve. So I prefer him not to get bitten at all. As far as I know, all other products require that the tick actually bite the dog for the chemical to get into them. I don't want that!

I put one dose of Advantix II on them at the first sign of tick activity in the spring. USUALLY that one dose will carry us into the drier summer weather, and the ticks slow down. If not, I will dose again, although I try not to dose closer together than every 6 weeks, and I do not dose the same week that I give them their heart worm pill. I always dose them again when it gets rainy in the fall, because the ticks are likely to get bad again then. We are lucky that we can typically forego tick preventatives though the winter here in MA. 

Everyone's dosing schedule is going to look different, depending on where they live. My goal is to dose as little as possible and see almost no ticks on them. (WITH my non-chemical control measures) IF I lived in an area where ticks were more active for more of the year, considering what I know now about the Bartonella/Hemangiosarcoma connection, I would consider the TOPICAL tick chemicals the lesser of two evils, and I would use them as often as I needed (up to the recommended frequency) to protect my dog. This is too important a consideration, and too deadly a disease to play around with. I do NOT want one of my dogs dead in my arms at 8 years old.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Karen, thank you very much for this excellent and very informative post. I was not aware of the connection between ticks and this deadly cancer. Definitely a very important factor to take into consideration.

I do think that avoiding tick bites in the first place is extremely helpful. We have many acres of woods here on our property and I never set foot in them with my dogs. It is just asking for it. I might consider it on a snowy cold day in January but that’s about it. Keeping the yard cleaned up is helpful too. I have tried some of the natural topicals, however the ones I tried were nasty stinky and greasy. And I know the stink must have been overwhelming for my dogs so they are not an option for me. It is good to know that Advantix II has some repellent properties. Where I lived previously the ticks were awful…very hard to avoid them. Where I live now it is easier to avoid ticky areas. I am curious what the spring will be like here.

Every area is so different with regard to ticks. We all have to decide what is best for our dogs. However, I think the key is minimal effective dose, whatever that means to each person and their particular area. For example, peak season is April and May where I live. After that I rarely see a tick until late fall and only a few at that time. However, my neighbor uses Nextgard year round on her dog which I think is sad and unnecessary. Avoiding giving heartworm medicine at the same time also helps to minimize the impact.

Since Mia had seizures after a rabies shot I am probably more cautious because most of them contain neurotoxins. Everyone needs to do what they feel is best. I respect others decisions on this. Thanks again for sharing.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> I have tried some of the natural topicals, however the ones I tried were nasty stinky and greasy. And I know the stink must have been overwhelming for my dogs so they are not an option for me.


I had the same experience. MAYBE, if you could stand the stink, you could use these on a very shorthaired dog. Absolutely not an option on a longhaired Havanese… might as well paste their coat together!



mudpuppymama said:


> Where I live now it is easier to avoid ticky areas. I am curious what the spring will be like here.
> 
> Every area is so different with regard to ticks. We all have to decide what is best for our dogs. However, I think the key is minimal effective dose,


Absolutely! I’ve had my dogs for 12+ years on the same property, and have lived here with animals for 35+ years. So I know the seasons and when to expect ticks. Even then, with climate change, things have changed, and we’ve had to adapt. I can understand how confusing it is to new dog owners.



mudpuppymama said:


> Since Mia had seizures after a rabies shot


For sure. ANYONE who has a dog with a tendency to seizures should avoid all the feed-throughs FOR SURE! They even SAY that in the commercials and ads for the products!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Oh, and I forgot to mention my THEORY on why, in the past, Hemangiosarcoma has been dx’d more in large/medium sized dogs than small ones. These larger dogs are much more likely to be out in tick infested areas, hiking with their owners than the toy dogs, so have a LOT more tick exposure than the little ones. 

Of course I have no PROOF that this is the reason, but knowing, now, the connection between ticks, Bartonella and Hemangio, this, to me, fits the scenario very neatly.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Each case is highly individualized. It just depends on your individual situation. It is best to discuss your individual circumstances with a qualified canine health care professional, like your trusted Vet.

In our case, we are surrounded by a natural habitat wetlands. Fleas and ticks are an infestation about 7 to 8 months a year because of our very warm climate during the summer months which lasts about 7 to 8 months a year here. Also, in our particular case, we spend a lot of time in sub-tropical Mexico. Fleas and ticks are a year round menace in that particular location (hot and humid).

Our Vet recommends a year round monthly prophylactic administration of both flea and tick medication (we use Advantix II) as well as Heartworm medication for our specific circumstances; his recommendation for other patients with different circumstances and needs may be different. It is always best to check with your Vet about his recommendation for your specific location and circumstances.

And that reminds me, today is Dec. 1, time for Ricky's monthly meds, we are off to Mexico soon.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> I had the same experience. MAYBE, if you could stand the stink, you could use these on a very shorthaired dog. Absolutely not an option on a longhaired Havanese… might as well paste their coat together!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As far as stinky stuff on the coat, my yorkie went insane when I used this stuff on him. He would roll all over the carpet and rub on the furniture. He immediately was given a bath. Dogs have very sensitive noses and I think it is cruel to put this stinky stuff on them and force them to smell it all day. Perhaps a bandana around the neck with it on that may be tolerable for a walk but at least could be taken off. I believe Wondercide has some products for the yard also. Maybe that would be better tolerated too if the yard is a problem for some. It could be that some dogs are okay with this stuff but my yorkie was not. Mia was not crazy about it either. And a gunked up coat has its own set of issues. One of my goals is to comb down to the skin each day to check for ticks. Not possible with a gunky coat!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

DogFather said:


> Each case is highly individualized. It just depends on your individual situation. It is best to discuss your individual circumstances with a qualified canine health care professional, like your trusted Vet.


Always best to HAVE a trusted vet (but some people have trouble finding one). But even WITH a trusted vet, the good vets _I_ know, just like most good doctors, like their clients/patients to be well informed, and welcome intelligent, informed conversation on pertinent issues. I have, and will continue to talk tom trusted vet about all of the health care decisions for my dogs, but it is a good reminder.


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## Kay251 (Jun 17, 2021)

I agree with you on the topical 'natural' sprays Wondercide's smell was too much for Nikko and me. Looking into the Advantage 2. I didn't like Frontline when I used it years ago because it caused an oil slick where I applied it but maybe I wasn't getting close enough to the skin.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Kay251 said:


> I agree with you on the topical 'natural' sprays Wondercide's smell was too much for Nikko and me. Looking into the Advantage 2. I didn't like Frontline when I used it years ago because it caused an oil slick where I applied it but maybe I wasn't getting close enough to the skin.


What I use is AdvanTIX II. Just wanted to be clear, because I do think there is something else called “Advantage”. It is essential that whatever topical you use, that you part the hair and get it RIGHT down on the skin, and put it in several small places down the dog’s back. That’s the only way it will be absorbed, AND then it won’t be greasy.


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## Kay251 (Jun 17, 2021)

Thanks for the tip. I think I'll try that this spring.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

In my climate it’s not common to use tick medications. Although ticks are everywhere now, they still makes the news here. DH has a local family member who used tick preventatives because he does a lot of disperses camping and takes his dog hiking off trails. He also sometimes goes on last minute weekend trips to regions with more tick activity. I think that’s a good example of considering individual need. Heartworm meds are also not common here but our vet recommends them for people living in one of a few small areas near the lake or wetlands where mosquito activity is higher. We opted for heartworm tests, which is another option. i think if I lived in an area with more tick activity I’d have to use preventatives. I’m absentminded and I feel like I wouldn’t be vigilant enough with other measures alone and might miss something.


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## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

Great information!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> In my climate it’s not common to use tick medications. Although ticks are everywhere now, they still makes the news here. DH has a local family member who used tick preventatives because he does a lot of disperses camping and takes his dog hiking off trails. He also sometimes goes on last minute weekend trips to regions with more tick activity. I think that’s a good example of considering individual need. Heartworm meds are also not common here but our vet recommends them for people living in one of a few small areas near the lake or wetlands where mosquito activity is higher. We opted for heartworm tests, which is another option. i think if I lived in an area with more tick activity I’d have to use preventatives. I’m absentminded and I feel like I wouldn’t be vigilant enough with other measures alone and might miss something.


A lot of people around here with larger dogs, especially those with short coats, swear by Seresto collars. My understanding is that they are VERY effective at keeping ticks off, and have a long life. But I have been warned against them for Havanese by my vet, based on the potency of the chemicals they contain. AND, they must remain on the dog 24/7 to be effective. It would be SO nice to be able to put something on them just before taking them into potential “tick territory”, but I guess that’s not how they work. They have to be on all the time. And… coats. And matting. My dogs don‘t wear ANY collar in the house or yard.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Seresto collars have come under scrutiny lately. However, please do your own research.









Seresto collars come under greater scrutiny


Recent adverse event reports from pet owners related to a popular brand of flea and tick collars have gained national attention. The manufacturer has defended the collars as safe and effective, and veterinary experts say they have seen no cause for alarm. Federal regulators remind the public...




www.avma.org


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## Kay251 (Jun 17, 2021)

I hear you about the collar. I'm mat-phobic and bracing myself for Nikko's coat change.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Seresto collars have come under scrutiny lately. However, please do your own research.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Right. I wouldn't use them. And, as I said, my vet recommended AGAINST them for my dogs.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

I am wondering if some essential oils applied to a bandana might work just for walks. This way nothing is applied to the dog directly and matting would not be an issue.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

mudpuppymama said:


> Seresto collars have come under scrutiny lately. However, please do your own research.


Excellent way to phrase that. 👍 Well done!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> I am wondering if some essential oils applied to a bandana might work just for walks. This way nothing is applied to the dog directly and matting would not be an issue.


MAYBE... I am not convinced that ticks "smell" the way people who use essential oils think they do...


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> MAYBE... I am not convinced that ticks "smell" the way people who use essential oils think they do...


And for a yorkie who loves to dig, I do not see the bandana staying on too long! Some people do swear by the EOs, however I wonder if they live at ground zero for ticks.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> Absolutely! I’ve had my dogs for 12+ years on the same property, and have lived here with animals for 35+ years. So I know the seasons and when to expect ticks. Even then, with climate change, things have changed, and we’ve had to adapt. I can understand how confusing it is to new dog owners.


Oh they have definitely gotten a ton worse! My parents bought our property in 1965 and my sisters built their own houses on the property about 20-25 years ago. We've had dogs and as kids ran around the property all year long (woods, fields, etc.) Growing up we never found a tick on us or on the dogs... but in the last 10-20 years they have increased. I just found one crawling on Perry's fleece (presumably from a very quick detour into some higher grass along the road on our walk) - so I'm going to have to do his advantix II treatment (it's been about 6 weeks or so since his last dose) even though it's December. My sister and m Mom both have had lymes alone with several dogs (often without ever even having seen the tick that caused it). So we've gone from never seeing a tick on our dogs ever for the first half of my life to finding multiple ticks every year - including in DECEMBER!!!



krandall said:


> What I use is AdvanTIX II. Just wanted to be clear, because I do think there is something else called “Advantage”. It is essential that whatever topical you use, that you part the hair and get it RIGHT down on the skin, and put it in several small places down the dog’s back. That’s the only way it will be absorbed, AND then it won’t be greasy.


I do the same - I usually do it right before he goes to bed (to make sure i don't accidentally pet him there and get it on me) and then I give it 24 hours to soak in and then wash off the area where I gave it  that last part probably isn't necessary but I think it helps get it off the hair (in case you got any there).


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> I do the same - I usually do it right before he goes to bed (to make sure i don't accidentally pet him there and get it on me) and then I give it 24 hours to soak in and then wash off the area where I gave it  that last part probably isn't necessary but I think it helps get it off the hair (in case you got any there).


I SWAEAR the package USED to say either one day after and three days before a bath or the reverse... I can't remember which) But it doesn't say that anymore. I COULDN'T remember the last time I put it on them, and it was close enough to a show that I needed to check for Ducky. It said NOTHING about bathing on the package...


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> I SWAEAR the package USED to say either one day after and three days before a bath or the reverse... I can't remember which) But it doesn't say that anymore. I COULDN'T remember the last time I put it on them, and it was close enough to a show that I needed to check for Ducky. It said NOTHING about bathing on the package...


I probably wouldn't worry about doing it if he was in a full coat but being in a short puppy cut it would be easier to touch it when petting him


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

mudpuppymama said:


> And for a yorkie who loves to dig, I do not see the bandana staying on too long! Some people do swear by the EOs, however I wonder if they live at ground zero for ticks.


I think essential oils are great for a lot of things, I just doubt they’re as effective as some hype them up to be. If they were as effective at preventing ticks there wouldn’t be any need for so many to risk other drugs. I can see them being helpful as an additional layer of protection against ticks for someone unable to use anything else, just not comparable to products that have been studied and developed exclusively for managing ticks. But that’s why it comes down to assessing and weighing risks. For someone vigilant about checking and combing and taking other precautions, it’s easy to add essential oils to the routine and it doesn’t hurt! Drugs and herbs and oils will always be controversial, and it comes down to what an individual can live with. Like Karen mentioned, it used to be she was weighing the risk of tick disease with the side effects of the drugs, now she’s weighing the side effects of the drugs with cancer. For me I’m weighing the risk of side effects with the risk of being bitten at all, which is unlikely. I’m still going to buy citronella candles, still going to keep essential oils around, but my expectations are hopefully realistic about them.

as a side note, when we were talking about perfumes a long time ago I mentioned that the higher quality perfumes and candles don’t seem bother me and even though I’m sensitive to smells I still burn candles and use some scented products. I was pulling out holiday candles I bought at the end of the season last year and noticed for the first time that many of my favorites are made with essentials oils! They aren’t really marketed that way, so I wonder if it’s something that’s been around in higher quality products before they became a thing.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I think essential oils are great for a lot of things, I just doubt they’re as effective as some hype them up to be. If they were as effective at preventing ticks there wouldn’t be any need for so many to risk other drugs. I can see them being helpful as an additional layer of protection against ticks for someone unable to use anything else, just not comparable to products that have been studied and developed exclusively for managing ticks. But that’s why it comes down to assessing and weighing risks. For someone vigilant about checking and combing and taking other precautions, it’s easy to add essential oils to the routine and it doesn’t hurt! Drugs and herbs and oils will always be controversial, and it comes down to what an individual can live with. Like Karen mentioned, it used to be she was weighing the risk of tick disease with the side effects of the drugs, now she’s weighing the side effects of the drugs with cancer. For me I’m weighing the risk of side effects with the risk of being bitten at all, which is unlikely. I’m still going to buy citronella candles, still going to keep essential oils around, but my expectations are hopefully realistic about them.
> 
> as a side note, when we were talking about perfumes a long time ago I mentioned that the higher quality perfumes and candles don’t seem bother me and even though I’m sensitive to smells I still burn candles and use some scented products. I was pulling out holiday candles I bought at the end of the season last year and noticed for the first time that many of my favorites are made with essentials oils! They aren’t really marketed that way, so I wonder if it’s something that’s been around in higher quality products before they became a thing.


I don’t think natural remedies will ever be as effective as the drugs, but they can provide an extra layer of protection to prevent getting bitten in the first place and if used properly do not have the side effects drugs do. Most preventatives just kill the ticks after they bite the dog. Although Advantix II is a little different since it contains permethrin which acts as a repellent. For people in areas where ticks are not that bad, the EOs may offer enough protection. However, if used improperly EOs can be dangerous so a person needs to be knowledgeable about using them. I do think in heavily infested areas they could offer an additional means of defense.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I’m still going to buy citronella candles, still going to keep essential oils around, but my expectations are hopefully realistic about them.


Be aware that the ASPCA has listed Citronella (smoke) as poisonous to dogs. In addition the CDC has not approved Citronella for effectiveness. So do your own research before using. 

Having said that, I lived in the tropics near the equator for two years, many years ago. The place was infested with mosquitos after sundown. In fact the mosquitos put me in the hospital for two weeks with septic shock (paralyzed from waist down). I am highly allergic to mosquito "saliva" even to this day. It was a constant battle with flies during the day, mosquitos all night long, and rats and ants ALL THE TIME. Upon returning to my hut from the hospital, I burned "Mosquito Coils" (Citronella) every evening until I went to bed and then I slept under a mosquito net to keep the critters off of me. I don't believe I suffered any long term serious side effects, but I didn't have any pets then either.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

DogFather said:


> Be aware that the ASPCA has listed Citronella (smoke) as poisonous to dogs. In addition the CDC has not approved Citronella for effectiveness. So do your own research before using.
> 
> Having said that, I lived in the tropics near the equator for two years, many years ago. The place was infested with mosquitos after sundown. In fact the mosquitos put me in the hospital for two weeks with septic shock (paralyzed from waist down). I am highly allergic to mosquito "saliva" even to this day. It was a constant battle with flies during the day, mosquitos all night long, and rats and ants ALL THE TIME. Upon returning to my hut from the hospital, I burned "Mosquito Coils" (Citronella) every evening until I went to bed and then I slept under a mosquito net to keep the critters off of me. I don't believe I suffered any long term serious side effects, but I didn't have any pets then either.


I think essential oils like anything else can be misused. Cats are VERY sensitive to them. If I decide to use EOs I will work with someone knowledgeable.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

DogFather said:


> Be aware that the ASPCA has listed Citronella (smoke) as poisonous to dogs. In addition the CDC has not approved Citronella for effectiveness. So do your own research before using.
> 
> Having said that, I lived in the tropics near the equator for two years, many years ago. The place was infested with mosquitos after sundown. In fact the mosquitos put me in the hospital for two weeks with septic shock (paralyzed from waist down). I am highly allergic to mosquito "saliva" even to this day. It was a constant battle with flies during the day, mosquitos all night long, and rats and ants ALL THE TIME. Upon returning to my hut from the hospital, I burned "Mosquito Coils" (Citronella) every evening until I went to bed and then I slept under a mosquito net to keep the critters off of me. I don't believe I suffered any long term serious side effects, but I didn't have any pets then either.


I say that offhand, but I actually only have one citronella candle stored in our camping gear and you comment made me realized we haven’t gone camping in…. 4 years?? We have only gone once since we brought home Sundance! I don’t think we even used it then, we were camping here in Utah in an area that didn’t really have mosquitoes. Good to know about dogs!

I know a lot of people are really invested in essential oils, and I hope I don’t offend them. To me they are more like aromatherapy. Maybe because I’m so sensitive to smells, I do notice a distinct psychological impact from the ones I’ve been gifted, but I don’t notice anything more than that. I know they can be useful for other things, I have two I like for cleaning, but it takes work to learn and there isn’t a lot of data. For fragrance I’d rather burn a candle and buy a new one when I get bored of it than diffuse essential oils, partly because they are so expensive, but they’re wildly popular in homes here.


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