# To Titer or Not To Titer



## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Willow is due for her DHP+Parvo. How many of you do titer testing? Do you have to test for each (DHP & Parvo) or does the titer test do both since the shot does both? About how much does it cost?


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

here's some answers

__
https://58271237209%2Ftiter-vaccine-questions


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## cishepard (Apr 8, 2018)

I had Bingo titred at Hemopet. I consider Dr. Dodd's lab to be the best in the Western Hemisphere. This page shows the pricing down near the bottom ($52 for Parvo and distemper), and then you add in the cost for your vet to draw blood and send it in. I'm lucky my vet would do that, not sure if every one will.

https://labordatenbank.com/cake/hemopet/samples/hemopet_form


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Yes, I titer too, and my vet automatically sends to Hemopet.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

I would titer if I could. Here in Uganda my vet told me that the national office (which has to issue entry and exit permits when we travel) won't accept a titer, so we're stuck doing 1 year rabies AND annual DHLPPs  with no option for either the 3 year rabies OR a titer on the rest.


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## Scarlett's mom (Feb 14, 2017)

I titer.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> I would titer if I could. Here in Uganda my vet told me that the national office (which has to issue entry and exit permits when we travel) won't accept a titer, so we're stuck doing 1 year rabies AND annual DHLPPs  with no option for either the 3 year rabies OR a titer on the rest.


Yeah, you are in a unique situation... Which is pretty funny, because I am SURE that in Uganda, there are tons of street dogs running around with absolutely no vaccinations of any kind!


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Thanks everyone. I'm going to talk to my vet when we go in about getting the titer done for DHP/Parvo. The state requires the rabies shot though so I'll get that one done since it is also due.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

We've had nothing but good titers, some for over ten years, after only the puppy shots. None of our personal dogs have ever gotten any other shots, except for the required Rabies, since their puppy shots.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tom King said:


> We've had nothing but good titers, some for over ten years, after only the puppy shots. None of our personal dogs have ever gotten any other shots, except for the required Rabies, since their puppy shots.


That's what I'm doing with my younger ones. IMO (not knowing any better) I let Kodi be vaccinated too much when he was a youngster. I am convinced that his allergy problems and his inability to tolerate even Rabies vaccine (he has a waiver... legal in our state) are a result of that.

Neither of our girls has any problems, neither of them even had one-year boosters for anything but Rabies. We do titer annually, but I've read a number of papers suggesting that you don't even need to do that once the dog has shown an initial titer. I'm just not quite brave enough to do that.


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## cishepard (Apr 8, 2018)

I am raising Bingo with NR (Natural Rearing) protocols - no vaccines, no toxins, raw species appropriate diet. Focus on a strong immune system and controlled gradual exposure to potential disease. At 20 months he titered “Greater than 1.5 VERY GOOD LEVEL TITER” meaning he developed natural immunity to parvo and distemper without vaccination. Luckily, I live in an area that does not require rabies.
He is my first completely NR dog. I agree with the school of thought that naturally acquired immunity lasts for life, so I will not titer him again.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

These last few posts have really convinced me to do the titer. I thought you had to do them every time the shot came due. So, if I understand correctly, when they get titered, there is an indication of how long to go before doing it again? I'm like Karen - wouldn't want to assume that it would last a lifetime.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> These last few posts have really convinced me to do the titer. I thought you had to do them every time the shot came due. So, if I understand correctly, when they get titered, there is an indication of how long to go before doing it again? I'm like Karen - wouldn't want to assume that it would last a lifetime.


We don't know FOR SURE. That's the problem. Once you GET a good titer, they COULD be protected for life... even if the titer level goes down, because of "memory cells" that we can't test for. After a while, a titer only means that your dog has been exposed, and his body has mounted an effective defense against the disease in question. So no (or low) titer levels MAY only mean that they have not been exposed to the disease. Which is certainly possible in areas where most people vaccinate.

The PROBLEM is... if the titer is low, you just don't know for sure. We know there are immunizations with people that certainly need to be boostered from time to time. (for instance, tetanus and chicken pox) While other, like measles vaccine, give you life-long immunity.

So, my vet suggests titering annually. Since blood is being drawn anyway (for Lyme and heartworm which are absolutely important to titer for in my area) it doesn't hurt the dog at all to give a bit more blood for the distemper and parvo titers. Yes, it costs me a bit, but it gives me peace of mind. (Kodi also gets titered for Rabies, since he has a waiver for the vaccine. At least with the titer, we know he's protected)

I know other vets who feel that once you have a good distemper and parvo titer, you don't have to repeat it. So that's up to you to decide.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Are there situational variables to consider when thinking about doing this? Such as how much time the dog might spend at daycare, etc? 

In September my monthly calendar reminder to give heartworm prevention ended and I didn’t notice until 2 weeks ago. Since that time all of my dog’s recurrent poop issues have pretty much resolved. I suspected the heartguard was contributing, but now I’m convinced the diarrhea it caused in turn meant his anal glands didn’t empty properly, which meant that half of each month we were recovering from one poop issue or another. Now I’m reconsidering all of our vaccines and preventatives and trying to research with fresh eyes. How do you find a vet open to considering this?


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Karen - thanks for the good explanation.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Are there situational variables to consider when thinking about doing this? Such as how much time the dog might spend at daycare, etc?
> 
> In September my monthly calendar reminder to give heartworm prevention ended and I didn't notice until 2 weeks ago. Since that time all of my dog's recurrent poop issues have pretty much resolved. I suspected the heartguard was contributing, but now I'm convinced the diarrhea it caused in turn meant his anal glands didn't empty properly, which meant that half of each month we were recovering from one poop issue or another. Now I'm reconsidering all of our vaccines and preventatives and trying to research with fresh eyes. How do you find a vet open to considering this?


A dog who has a good titer has a good protective response to the disease. period.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

I wish I had known about the dangers of vaccines sooner. I stopped vaccinating one of my dogs at age 2 and the other at age 1. If I had it to do over, I would never vaccinate them at all. I believe they have much more chance of getting allergies or an autoimmune disease than the feared diseases. I did do titers up until age 7 and they always came back good. They are 10 now and neither has any allergies or health issues. I do feed a homemade raw diet and avoid tick and flea meds. Some years I have also skipped heartworm meds but I make sure to test them twice a year. I do waffle back and forth on the heartworm meds and when I do give it I get a prescription of ivermectin without any of the other worming chemicals they put in the other heartworm meds. Note that I do have a holistic vet who supports raw feeding but she does advise heartworm meds which is unlike many other holistic vets.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

*situations*



EvaE1izabeth said:


> Are there situational variables to consider when thinking about doing this? Such as how much time the dog might spend at daycare, etc?
> 
> In September my monthly calendar reminder to give heartworm prevention ended and I didn't notice until 2 weeks ago. Since that time all of my dog's recurrent poop issues have pretty much resolved. I suspected the heartguard was contributing, but now I'm convinced the diarrhea it caused in turn meant his anal glands didn't empty properly, which meant that half of each month we were recovering from one poop issue or another. Now I'm reconsidering all of our vaccines and preventatives and trying to research with fresh eyes. How do you find a vet open to considering this?


That might depend on the daycare itself. If your daycare requires certain vaccines but will accept a titer, they might want you to confirm that it's still "good" periodically -but you'd have to check with them (after convincing them that a titer is as good as getting the vaccine again)


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## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

krandall said:


> We don't know FOR SURE. That's the problem. Once you GET a good titer, they COULD be protected for life... even if the titer level goes down, because of "memory cells" that we can't test for. After a while, a titer only means that your dog has been exposed, and his body has mounted an effective defense against the disease in question. So no (or low) titer levels MAY only mean that they have not been exposed to the disease. Which is certainly possible in areas where most people vaccinate.
> 
> The PROBLEM is... if the titer is low, you just don't know for sure. We know there are immunizations with people that certainly need to be boostered from time to time. (for instance, tetanus and chicken pox) While other, like measles vaccine, give you life-long immunity.
> 
> ...


So, if your dog shows protection against ticks and heartworm, you don't have to give them the medicine sgsinst those problems? That's the firet, i believe, that i had heard about titering for Lyme and heartworm and am wondering if that is something I should do here in Florida.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

There is no test to show your dog is protected against Lyme disease or heartworm. The heartworm test checks for microfilia in the blood. This is how heartworms start out. Heartworm preventative is not am preventative at all. It is a pesticide that kills the microfilia before they become worms. Once they are worms, they are very hard to kill. That is why preventatives are advised. Heartworms come from mosquitoes so heartworm is very related to the area you live in. South Florida is probably one of the worst places so preventatives may be advisable. In other areas, you can get by with only giving them part of the year. There is a map on the web that shows where you live and what months you should give it. This could reduce the toxic load on your dog. Others say if your dog is healthy they will not get a worm overload. They may get 1 or 2 and they will die eventually. However, this is risky. I do not let my dogs out in summer at dawn or dusk. This is when mosquitoes feed. This can also reduce exposure. As far ticks, we have lots of those here and my dogs do get a few ticks. However, as long as you get them off within 24 hours, they will not get Lyme disease. It is important to check them daily and get them off. They are sometimes easy to miss. However, my dogs have gotten occasional blown up ticks for 10 years and they are super healthy. For me it is less risky than giving them toxic flea and tick preventatives. And the new oral flea/tick drugs are very bad...FDA has just issued another warning on them and there is a Facebook page called Does Nextgard Kill Dogs...check that out if you give oral meds for fleas and ticks. I also wanted to add that a flea comb is super effective and underrated.


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## havix2!! (Apr 23, 2018)

I have two super Havanese, each 10 years old. One has no problems with her annual Lyme vaccine, rabies and distemper booster. My other one had a negative reaction to her second round of puppy shots (throwing up and diarrhea as a puppy), so my vet gives her a titer test annually. She is able to take rabies and Lyme vaccines. So far her titers for distemper have been good so she has never had to have another distemper shot. We live in an area where tics/Lyme are prevalent so even though the Lyme vaccine may not work well, she gets it. I also use Frontline Gold during flea and tic season.

I hope I am doing the right thing but I trust our vet who is careful and knowledgeable.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Everyone has to make their own decision. However, I do not trust vets and always do my own research. They are good at putting the fear of God into us. Even so, there are always differing opinions so this is difficult. I understand that the Lyme vaccine is not too effective and carries a lot of risks. They say a dog can test positive for Lyme and show no symptoms. I am not sure how hard it is to treat Lyme disease in dogs but, if treatable, wondering if the vaccine is worth the risk. There is not a good cure for heartworm but not sure about Lyme. In our area we have lepto, however this vaccine is also not very effective and high risk. When my dog was two, they scared me into giving it to her. She had mild seizures afterwards...no more vaccines for my dogs. The bad effects of vaccines are not always immediate either. For example, many dogs have hypothyroidism which is a horrible autoimmune disease that they believe is caused by vaccines. I would rather my dog get lepto than put her at risk for this.


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## JulieB (Jun 16, 2016)

I titer and my vet is a huge advocate for it, especially for small dogs. It’s expensive $130-150 where I live, but it’s worth it to me to not have all those unnecessary vaccines given to Bodie.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> I wish I had known about the dangers of vaccines sooner. I stopped vaccinating one of my dogs at age 2 and the other at age 1. If I had it to do over, I would never vaccinate them at all. I believe they have much more chance of getting allergies or an autoimmune disease than the feared diseases. I did do titers up until age 7 and they always came back good. They are 10 now and neither has any allergies or health issues. I do feed a homemade raw diet and avoid tick and flea meds. Some years I have also skipped heartworm meds but I make sure to test them twice a year. I do waffle back and forth on the heartworm meds and when I do give it I get a prescription of ivermectin without any of the other worming chemicals they put in the other heartworm meds. Note that I do have a holistic vet who supports raw feeding but she does advise heartworm meds which is unlike many other holistic vets.


I think we can throw the baby out with the bath water when we go too far in the other direction. Both distemper and parvo are killers. All dogs, IMO, deserve to be protected against those diseases, since we have the ability. They just don't need to be OVER vaccinated for them. Likewise, Rabies is not only an absolute killer of dogs, but of humans too. It is irresponsible not to vaccinate most dogs for rabies, and it is against the law not to vaccinate on a certain schedule. The consequences of NOT vaccinating can mean the death of your dog if someone even SAYS the dog has bitten their child. Remember. Your dog doesn't actually have to have bitten... if there is a break in the skin, and your dog is accused, and has not been vaccinated, it will be treated as a bite from an unvaccinated, and possibly rabid animal. Not something I would want to face.

Not all vaccines are bad. Some are potentially worse than the disease they may protect against. Some diseases are horrible and not worth taking a chance with. BLINDLY vaccinating with every jab that comes along is probably not in the best interest of your animal. You need to educate yourself and make educated decisions.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

These are very valid points. I agree that parvo, distemper and rabies are the key diseases to worry about. And the main thing is to vaccinate as minimally as possible. A puppy may have immunity from its mom so a titer may indicate that puppy does not need vaccines. Rabies is dictated by law so nothing much we can do there. However, doing titers every year for me does not make sense because I believe once they are immune, they will remain immune even if the titer gets lower. That is my opinion but others may disagree. I spent $500 per year for many years tittering my dogs. I would rather use that money to buy some good grass fed organic meat to make them healthy food and build up their immune system.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> As far ticks, we have lots of those here and my dogs do get a few ticks. However, as long as you get them off within 24 hours, they will not get Lyme disease. It is important to check them daily and get them off. They are sometimes easy to miss. However, my dogs have gotten occasional blown up ticks for 10 years and they are super healthy. For me it is less risky than giving them toxic flea and tick preventatives. And the new oral flea/tick drugs are very bad...FDA has just issued another warning on them and there is a Facebook page called Does Nextgard Kill Dogs...check that out if you give oral meds for fleas and ticks. I also wanted to add that a flea comb is super effective and underrated.


Can't totally agree with you here. While I do agree that I would never use the feed though flea and tick meds, and use even the topicals very sparingly, (typically twice per year, when ticks are at their worst) ticks do NOT need to be on the dog for 24 hours to spread TBD's. That was originally thought to be the case. It has now been shown that they can spread infection much more quickly... which means that topicals that do not contain a repellant are of questionable efficacy. Which is why I use Advantix when I need to use anything.

But even WITH Advantix at the worst times of year, and keeping my dogs out of the woods and tall grass at bad tick times, and doing complete tick checks and comb-outs daily as well as after every walk outside the back yard, AND doing all proper yard maintenance to prevent ticks in the dog area of the property, we live close to ground zero for Lyme. We do occasionally find embedded ticks on our dogs (and ourselves). From time to time, no matter how careful we are. We titer twice a year for our dogs... something we can do for them that we can't do for ourselves. Even as careful as we are, we have had three positive TBD titers. Two, fortunately, have been low enough that they showed exposure, but that they dog had fought off the infection by themselves. Pixel had one titer high enough that she needed treatment, though, thankfully, she never had any symptoms. None of them ever had a tick on them for 24 hours or more than a TEENY bit engorged.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> These are very valid points. I agree that parvo, distemper and rabies are the key diseases to worry about. And the main thing is to vaccinate as minimally as possible. A puppy may have immunity from its mom so a titer may indicate that puppy does not need vaccines. Rabies is dictated by law so nothing much we can do there. However, doing titers every year for me does not make sense because I believe once they are immune, they will remain immune even if the titer gets lower. That is my opinion but others may disagree. I spent $500 per year for many years tittering my dogs. I would rather use that money to buy some good grass fed organic meat to make them healthy food and build up their immune system.


Immunity from the mother does not stay, but can interfere with the effectiveness of vaccines, which is ehy the timing of vaccines is important.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

One more thing about Lyme and the other TBD... as someone who lives in “tick central” dog owners here realize that ticks and the diseases they carry are a fact of life. We watch our dogs carefully for signs of illness, travelling lamness or “NDR” (not doin’ right). We are quick to bring our dogs in for a titer at any of these signs and our vets are quick to treat at the wigns of any suspicious symptoms. And the good thing is, the TBD’s DO all respond nicely to antibiotics if caught early. That’s why it makes sense to titer twice a year in this area even if the dog has no symptoms, and treat if they have a high titer.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Thank you for sharing the additional information about ticks. I did not realize they could transmit disease in less than 24 hours. I do know that they are horrid obnoxious creatures that are very difficult to find on a dog. We have lots of ticks here at certain times of year. It is really hard to avoid them no matter how hard you try. I do keep my dogs trimmed short in summer to make them easier to find. If Lyme risk is high, I can see where people would want to use tick preventatives. I also did not know that Advantix is a repellent. I thought it worked same as Frontline which is basically a neurotoxin. Thank you for the information.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Thank you for sharing the additional information about ticks. I did not realize they could transmit disease in less than 24 hours. I do know that they are horrid obnoxious creatures that are very difficult to find on a dog. We have lots of ticks here at certain times of year. It is really hard to avoid them no matter how hard you try. I do keep my dogs trimmed short in summer to make them easier to find. If Lyme risk is high, I can see where people would want to use tick preventatives. I also did not know that Advantix is a repellent. I thought it worked same as Frontline which is basically a neurotoxin. Thank you for the information.


Yes, all the others, whether spot-on or internal require the tick to bite the dog before there is any effect on the tick. I had to find another alternative, because Kodi has a very bad reaction to the tick bite itself, regardless of whether it is diseased. He gets a huge hard lump that lasts for weeks, then the hair falls out. If we're lucky, it grows back in white (in his black areas, which is where they usually are... on his head. If it's a particularly bony area, like an eyebrow, he may end up with (another) bald spot. So KEEPING him from getting bitten at all is relatively important to me.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Ticks are so horrid. My dogs also get big bumps that last awhile from some ticks. In fact when I get a tick bite even if I get it off quickly I get a bump that itches like crazy. I really like the idea of repelling them and wondering what safe repellents are out there that could be used either alone or in conjunction with the typical flea products. I Have tried wiping my dogs down with a damp rag that is soaked in apple cider vinegar before going out. I have also tried pouring boiling water over a sliced lemon, adding some rosemary and letting it seep overnight. I apply this also with a rag. These are not fool proof but help. I am a little scared of essentials oils but some people say they really work. My vet recommends the herbal spot ons from Mercola but I have never tried them. Good luck in fighting the ticks. I sometimes wonder why God created them!


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

mudpuppymama said:


> Good luck in fighting the ticks. I sometimes wonder why God created them!


This may answer your question.

What good are ticks?


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Thank you for helping me to appreciate the little critters! I will try to remember this the next time I pull a tick off my fur baby! It is a good point too that parasites are meant to “thin the herd”. However, I guess no one wants them or their dog to be one that is “thinned”. I think this concept also applies to the deadly dog diseases but on one wants to be the victim. Survival of the fittest can be cruel.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Ricky - you are just a world of information!


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

I'm adding to this thread because the title was perfect. Feel free to direct me to a more recent thread if one exists.

We're taking Shama to the vet today for her annual check-up. We trust our vet but are also interested in what experienced Havanese owners have to say ...

Which vaccines can be replaced by titers? According to this article,

_"AAHA vaccine guidelines say that titer testing is an appropriate way to check for immunity to parvovirus, distemper and adenovirus. However, it is not recommended for canine leptospirosis, bordetella or Lyme disease, because these vaccines only provide short-term protection.

Rabies vaccines do provide long-term protection, and the titer tests for rabies are also considered to be a very accurate measure of immunity. However, vaccination against rabies is mandated by law and at this time, no state in the U.S. accepts titer-test results in lieu of vaccination history."_

Thanks!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ShamaMama said:


> I'm adding to this thread because the title was perfect. Feel free to direct me to a more recent thread if one exists.
> 
> We're taking Shama to the vet today for her annual check-up. We trust our vet but are also interested in what experienced Havanese owners have to say ...
> 
> ...


That is fairly correct except that Maryland now accepts Rabies titers!!! YAY MD!!!

We only do "core vaccines" so we titer for parvo, distemper and adenovirus. Except for Kodi, who has a waiver, we give Rabies as required by law. (Well, I guess we do him as required by law too, BECAUSE he has a waiver. He gets titered for Rabies). HOWEVER, we titer for the three most common TBD in this area (Lyme, Babesiosis and Anaplasmosis) twice a year. Many people titer once, but use tick "meds" more religiously. We don't, so we titer twice. Bortadella is not a serious disease, so we don't bother with that vaccine at all, and Lepto vaccine is not terrible effective and has a BAD side effect profile, so we skip that one too.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Thanks, Karen! I was really hoping you'd reply. I'm going to print your response and include it in the bag that goes into the vet's office with Shama (since we won't be allowed in due to COVID). This is our regular vet, and I'm sure we'll consult over the phone (or in the cold parking lot) before she does anything.

Tomorrow will be a better day for Shama as she'll get to go play with her friend Challah, the Pyrenean Shepherd puppy!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ShamaMama said:


> Thanks, Karen! I was really hoping you'd reply. I'm going to print your response and include it in the bag that goes into the vet's office with Shama (since we won't be allowed in due to COVID). This is our regular vet, and I'm sure we'll consult over the phone (or in the cold parking lot) before she does anything.
> 
> Tomorrow will be a better day for Shama as she'll get to go play with her friend Challah, the Pyrenean Shepherd puppy!


I LOVE Pyrenean Shepherds!!! <3


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

I do not do any titers except for tickborne diseases. Titers are useful if you are basing your decision to vaccinate on them. However, I have decided that my dogs have little or no chance of getting the core diseases and that the chances of them having a bad reaction, getting an autoimmune disease or suffering from lifelong allergies or chronic conditions is far greater. In addition, Mia had some terrible reactions to vaccines and is over vaccinated. The diseases that mine are at risk for are lepto and enrlichiosis and testing for lepto makes no sense. In addition, some latest research says that just because a dog has a low titer does not necessarily mean they are not immune if they have had at least one good titer in the past to prove immunity because immunity is still in the T cells. Not sure if this is true...just throwing it out there.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> In addition, some latest research says that just because a dog has a low titer does not necessarily mean they are not immune if they have had at least one good titer in the past to prove immunity because immunity is still in the T cells. Not sure if this is true...just throwing it out there.


My understanding from vet friends is that they just don't know. Which, I know, is not the LEAST bit helpful...


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

ShamaMama said:


> Thanks, Karen! I was really hoping you'd reply. I'm going to print your response and include it in the bag that goes into the vet's office with Shama (since we won't be allowed in due to COVID). This is our regular vet, and I'm sure we'll consult over the phone (or in the cold parking lot) before she does anything.
> 
> Tomorrow will be a better day for Shama as she'll get to go play with her friend Challah, the Pyrenean Shepherd puppy!


Just wondering if there are any special vaccine considerations for dogs with kidney disease. I have read some articles saying that dogs with liver or kidney disease or other chronic problems should not be vaccinated. I understand that the vaccine instructions say to only administer to healthy animals. However, I assume "healthy animal" is not defined anywhere and left up to the vet's discretion.

https://animalwellnessmagazine.com/yearly-vaccines-unnecessary/


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

*titer - perfect timing*



ShamaMama said:


> I'm adding to this thread because the title was perfect. Feel free to direct me to a more recent thread if one exists.
> 
> We're taking Shama to the vet today for her annual check-up. We trust our vet but are also interested in what experienced Havanese owners have to say ...
> 
> ...


This is perfect timing. Perry is due for his DHLPP and I want to titer this year instead (since we're not in Uganda and don't need it for there as a requirement).

I also have his rabies titer done - mostly in case we need it for travel (sine it has to be done months before you travel, I've decided to try to keep it current - had it done last June, so will do it now as well). He's got the 3 year rabies vaccine so we don't have to worry about that right now, but will do the titer so we're current for travel - never know where we will end up next.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> This is perfect timing. Perry is due for his DHLPP and I want to titer this year instead (since we're not in Uganda and don't need it for there as a requirement).
> 
> I also have his rabies titer done - mostly in case we need it for travel (sine it has to be done months before you travel, I've decided to try to keep it current - had it done last June, so will do it now as well). He's got the 3 year rabies vaccine so we don't have to worry about that right now, but will do the titer so we're current for travel - never know where we will end up next.


You know, in your case, I wouldn't even bother with titering. Most vets have gone to AT LEAST 3 year boostering, which is what is recommended by the AVMA. So with the annual boostering Perry has had, I don't think it is really even worth the expense of titering.

And I'm not sure you are aware, but the "annual" and "3-year" Rabies are EXACTLY the same vaccine. It is just how it is administered. There is only one.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

*3 year booster?*



krandall said:


> You know, in your case, I wouldn't even bother with titering. Most vets have gone to AT LEAST 3 year boostering, which is what is recommended by the AVMA. So with the annual boostering Perry has had, I don't think it is really even worth the expense of titering.
> 
> And I'm not sure you are aware, but the "annual" and "3-year" Rabies are EXACTLY the same vaccine. It is just how it is administered. There is only one.


3 year boostering for DHLPP?

I knew the vaccine was the same for the 3 year and 1 year - the important part is what is written in his passport . of course, depending where we're going next, we might have to go back to 1 year despite how high his titer is.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> 3 year boostering for DHLPP?


Yes.



Melissa Brill said:


> I knew the vaccine was the same for the 3 year and 1 year - the important part is what is written in his passport . of course, depending where we're going next, we might have to go back to 1 year despite how high his titer is.


Yes, that's the point. Since you may have to booster him ANYWAY, when you travel again, and I am POSITIVE he's got a high titer, considering that he's been vaccinated up the ying yang, I wouldn't even bother with the expense of titering. And I tend to be pretty over-cautious when it comes to titering since there is no danger to the dog from it, only to my wallet.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

*rabies titer*



krandall said:


> Yes, that's the point. Since you may have to booster him ANYWAY, when you travel again, and I am POSITIVE he's got a high titer, considering that he's been vaccinated up the ying yang, I wouldn't even bother with the expense of titering. And I tend to be pretty over-cautious when it comes to titering since there is no danger to the dog from it, only to my wallet.


I agree on the DHLPP - I might skip the titer this time and check it later (or before we travel). The rabies titer isn't to see how good his coverage is - it's because many countries require it for travel - and it has to be current AND done anywhere between 1 - 6 months before travel (it varies from one country to another)... so I'm doing the rabies titer so that we're current for travel and don't have to worry about whether his certificate is current or not. I'm not at all worried about his coverage - his last titer in June was 1.86 - and it only has to be over .5.


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## BoosDad (Mar 8, 2020)

I've always titered for parvo and distemper on an annual basis for the past 13 years. Boos titers were indicative of a good immune response until this past year, when the distemper result was low. So I avoided overvaccinating him for a lengthy period of time. His holistic vet used the Hemopet lab in SoCal. The cost, over the years, ranged from $60-$80 a year for the test. This year I decided to have his specialist do his yearly titer testing, since she was taking blood and urine every month to monitor his IBD. Guess what I learned? Different labs charge different prices. This time the cost was $350.00 for the titer test, instead of $80.00. Live and learn or, as in my case, live and don't learn haha.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> I agree on the DHLPP - I might skip the titer this time and check it later (or before we travel). The rabies titer isn't to see how good his coverage is - it's because many countries require it for travel - and it has to be current AND done anywhere between 1 - 6 months before travel (it varies from one country to another)... so I'm doing the rabies titer so that we're current for travel and don't have to worry about whether his certificate is current or not. I'm not at all worried about his coverage - his last titer in June was 1.86 - and it only has to be over .5.


Yes, I get that.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

BoosDad said:


> I've always titered for parvo and distemper on an annual basis for the past 13 years. Boos titers were indicative of a good immune response until this past year, when the distemper result was low. So I avoided overvaccinating him for a lengthy period of time. His holistic vet used the Hemopet lab in SoCal. The cost, over the years, ranged from $60-$80 a year for the test. This year I decided to have his specialist do his yearly titer testing, since she was taking blood and urine every month to monitor his IBD. Guess what I learned? Different labs charge different prices. This time the cost was $350.00 for the titer test, instead of $80.00. Live and learn or, as in my case, live and don't learn haha.


Oh, wow!!! I think it's $30 for the titer here!!!


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Back from the vet report ...

1) We're going to do a titer for her DHP in March when she has her teeth cleaned. (She'll also have bloodwork done at that time, so they'll only have to draw blood once for both the bloodwork and the titer.) She mentioned the price of the titer, but neither DH nor I can recall what it was. It will be interesting to find out, given Boo's Dad's experience!

2) We got the lepto shot, as we have every year. Our main vet and her associate that we saw once have always convinced us that it's worth giving her the lepto shot. Our vet said that a lot of distrust of the lepto vaccine is due to the fact that the lepto vaccine 30 years ago really was poor. She said that the vaccine is much better now and that dogs and people are in danger of getting lepto. She said a dog can get it from sniffing the urine of an infected rabbit. (Shama is constantly chasing rabbits out of our yard - and eating their poop!) She said that infected animals don't necessarily show signs right away and can easily infect others. She said that she personally lost two dogs to kidney failure after they contracted lepto. She said that Shama, despite having kidney disease, is in more danger from lepto itself than she is from the lepto vaccine.

3) We got half a Galliprant tablet (kidney friendly 24-hour anti-inflammatory post-vaccination medication).

4) We decided NOT to get the kennel cough (bordetella) shot because Shama almost never has nose-to-nose contact with other dogs. She rarely goes to dog parks and doesn't go to any doggie day care. She never gets to interact with other dogs at the classes we take together.

5) We got a new supply of Vet Classics Tear Stain supplement.

6) Inspired by the conversation in this thread, we got a 250 ml bottle of BreathaLyser drinking water additive for dogs and cats ("designed to help maintain oral hygiene and improve your pet's bad breath.") Twice a week, we're to put 10 ml into a quart of Shama's drinking water. This will hopefully at least partially compensate for our bad brushing habits!

7) Shama's chronic kidney disease has not worsened (her USG numbers have actually improved from a year ago, from 1.2 to 1.007)

8) Inspired by the same conversation linked above, I asked about dewclaws. She agreed that breeders are probably continuing to have dewclaws removed just because they always have even though it is now known that they should NOT be removed. (I wish I'd thought to ask, "Why would a vet agree to remove dewclaws when they know they shouldn't?") Hmm! I just read in the description of the AKC standard for Havanese that "dewclaws may be removed." Karen, why do you think that hasn't been changed?

Thanks for the titer/vaccination help!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

ShamaMama, is this the water additive? It says one of the ingredients is xylitol which is toxic to dogs. Am I looking at this wrong?

https://www.healthypets.com/breathalyser250.html#tabs-2

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/paws-xylitol-its-dangerous-dogs


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

mudpuppymama said:


> ShamaMama, is this the water additive? It says one of the ingredients is xylitol which is toxic to dogs. Am I looking at this wrong?
> 
> https://www.healthypets.com/breathalyser250.html#tabs-2
> 
> https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/paws-xylitol-its-dangerous-dogs


You are AMAZING!

The ingredients list you found is NOT THE SAME as the ingredients list on the bottle! There is no mention of xylitol on the bottle. I'll call the 1-800 number on the bottle tomorrow and report back.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

ShamaMama said:


> You are AMAZING!
> 
> The ingredients list you found is NOT THE SAME as the ingredients list on the bottle! There is no mention of xylitol on the bottle. I'll call the 1-800 number on the bottle tomorrow and report back.


ShamaMama, oh wow...I am so glad you are checking it out. I could not believe that they would use xylitol. I hate to think this but wondering if it used to be in there and they took it out! I am not sure exactly when the FDA figured out that xylitol is so toxic to dogs.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Interesting...I actually found a study from 2011 where they did some research on the xylitol in Breathalyser and its effects on dogs.

https://www.pagepress.org/journals/index.php/vsd/article/view/vsd.2011.e2/2805


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ShamaMama said:


> Back from the vet report ...
> 
> 1) We're going to do a titer for her DHP in March when she has her teeth cleaned. (She'll also have bloodwork done at that time, so they'll only have to draw blood once for both the bloodwork and the titer.) She mentioned the price of the titer, but neither DH nor I can recall what it was. It will be interesting to find out, given Boo's Dad's experience!
> 
> ...


Good for you for having such a thorough conversation with your vet, and yay that her kidney values have improved!!!

The horrifying fact is that many old time breeders do dewclaw removals themselves. For those that take them to a vet. Many vets will do it to PREVENT the breeder from doing it themselves.

And when you ask why AKC hasn't changed that, do you REALLY think AKC is going to change THAT when they have not yet stopped the mutilation of ears and tails actually REQUIRED by some breeds? AKC is steeped in tradition, whether it is GOOD for the dogs or not.

Dewclaw removal got started with gun dogs. It IS a real problem when an adult bird dog, working in heavy brush, tears a dewclaw. That becomes a medical emergency, with heavy bleeding, requires stitches and puts the dog out of service until it heals. So many people involved in gun sports are adamant that their dog's dewclaws be removed at birth... and in that sport it MIGHT make sense. OTOH, I've heard other gun dog people say that they do NOT remove dew claws, opting, instead, to vetrap their dogs' dewclaws when they send them into heavy brush for protection, or simply saying that they just have never had a problem with it and don't worry about it. So I'm not going to pass judgement on whether it should or should not be done to or for that subset of dogs.

But those are not our dogs. Our Havanese are NEVER going to be working as gun dogs, and the likelihood of them ripping a dewclaw in heavy brush is somewhere between slim and none. There is no reason, other than human convenience to remove Havanese dewclaws.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

mudpuppymama said:


> Interesting...I actually found a study from 2011 where they did some research on the xylitol in Breathalyser and its effects on dogs.
> 
> https://www.pagepress.org/journals/index.php/vsd/article/view/vsd.2011.e2/2805


Fascinating! Their conclusion is that the product is safe, so I need not call the 1-800 number. Thanks so much!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

ShamaMama said:


> Fascinating! Their conclusion is that the product is safe, so I need not call the 1-800 number. Thanks so much!


ShamaMama, although the study says it is safe I would never feed xylitol to my dogs. I posted the study but do not necessarily agree with it. First of all they tested on beagles who are not sensitive to chemicals and secondly it assumes that a pet drinks small amounts of water throughout the day so they say this makes it safer. Bad assumption. My yorkie drinks once a day his entire water quota.

Again, I was only posting this study and not saying I agree with it. I would never feed xylitol in any amount whatsoever to my dogs, under any circumstance.

I would still verify with the company if the latest formula contains xylitol.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

mudpuppymama said:


> ShamaMama, although the study says it is safe I would never feed xylitol to my dogs. I posted the study but do not necessarily agree with it. First of all they tested on beagles who are not sensitive to chemicals and secondly it assumes that a pet drinks small amounts of water throughout the day so they say this makes it safer. Bad assumption. My yorkie drinks once a day his entire water quota.
> 
> Again, I was only posting this study and not saying I agree with it. I would never feed xylitol in any amount whatsoever to my dogs, under any circumstance.
> 
> I would still verify with the company if the latest formula contains xylitol.


Please listen to the FDA...they clearly state that you should not give your dog anything with xylitol.

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/paws-xylitol-its-dangerous-dogs


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Thanks, mudpuppymama. I'll call.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

ShamaMama said:


> Thanks, mudpuppymama. I'll call.


Thank you ShamaMama. Sorry for the confusion! I have found it several places online and some say it has xylitol...others don't. I know sometimes when they reformulate something, they leave the old formula on the shelf.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

I feel like I’m on an episode of Law & Order.

First, I called the 1-800 number on the bottle of Breathalyser and was told, via recorded message, that I had to call a different number. Then I called the different number, which turned out to be in Missouri, and spoke with a man with a southern (to me!) accent.

The man assured me that Breathalyser has not contained Xylitol for years. He said a product called Breathalyser Plus did and may still but is not sold in the US. He assured me that the label on the product I purchased yesterday is accurate and complete. (It does not list Xylitol as an ingredient.)

Then I looked at the study mudpuppymama found online. Indeed, it is about Breathalyser Plus, not Breathalyser. (For those of you who didn’t read it, its conclusion was that the amount of Xylitol contained in the product was not harmful to dogs. Mudpuppymama doesn’t necessarily trust its results, and I no longer care about that study since it’s not about the product I purchased.)

Then I looked at the website where mudpuppymama found Xylitol listed as an ingredient for Breathalyser, healthypets.com. I found it curious that it was listed in INGREDIENTS directly below the DESCRIPTION which concluded with a list of key benefits, including “Reformulated with NO Xylitol.”

Then I called the 1-800 number of healthypets.com and asked if their list of ingredients was accurate. She put me on hold for five minutes then came back to tell me that their list of ingredients was wrong and that Breathalyser does NOT contain Xylitol. I asked her to please fix the ingredients list ASAP to avoid confusion for pet owners. I’ll check back at some point to see if they fix it.

Case closed. Jack McCoy will NOT have to take Breathalyser to trial. Lennie Brisco will NOT have to walk into the company’s New Year’s party to handcuff the CEO.

Shama will get to taste Breathalyser tomorrow.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

ShamaMama said:


> I feel like I'm on an episode of Law & Order.
> 
> First, I called the 1-800 number on the bottle of Breathalyser and was told, via recorded message, that I had to call a different number. Then I called the different number, which turned out to be in Missouri, and spoke with a man with a southern (to me!) accent.
> 
> ...


Thanks ShamaMama! Glad it is safe and hopefully they fix the ingredients list on the website to avoid confusion!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

I'd say we have beaten a dead horse but I just couldn't resist. Breathalyser on Amazon says the same thing "does not contain xylitol" and then when you scroll down to the ingredients it lists xylitol as an ingredient! Anyway, case closed. We cannot change the world. But Shama is safe.

Amazon.com : imrex Breathalyser Water Additive for Dogs and Cats, 500 ml : Pet Food : Pet Supplies


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