# back to the vet...



## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

Good morning hav lovers!

I have been putting off writing this thread because I kept hoping things would change. Most of you know the uti/crystals issue we had over the holidays.
She had a re check beginning of January and all was clear! The vet adjusted her back and she did fine for about a month.
The past week I have been checking her crate pad every morning and every morning it is wet.
She doesn't drink at.all. so no 'taking the water up'
I have made her crate TINY, where there is barely room for her to lay down. still wet.
I have been taking her out when I get up to go potty (twice a night) STILL wet in the morning.
It's been 4 days in a row of a wet crate.
My husband is OKAY with this and says we can't DO anything about it and to just keep washing the towels... ummmmm, NO.
I have a call into the vet. I am hoping maybe her back is out again causing urinary incontinence? If it was behavioral wouldn't the things I have been doing cause it to stop?? 
I am so confused and heartbroken over this.
I hope the vet will be able to help us, but I literally have to go behind my husbands back to take her.
Has anyone else ever dealt with something like this??
For those of you that don't know Tillie and I, she is 2 1/2 yrs old and potty trained like a dream, 2 weeks. BAM no accidents, bell training and never had any problems until this past November when she started peeing on the beds! Turns out she had a uti and crystals in her urine. Another infection at Christmastime and she was on 2 antibiotics and restricted in the house (which she still is not allowed in bedrooms except for at bedtime where she goes to her crate.) I am wondering if this is behavioral, physical? if she thinks it's okay to pee in her crate?! Hoping and thinking maybe she just has yet another uti...? prayers appreciated.
Not sure when I'll be able to get her to the vet, I have a call in right now, waiting to here, hoping for today...


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

sorry to hear this Tammy, hard to say, but the vet is the first thing to check out for sure. Keep us up to date . Hugs


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## JCChaplin (Oct 2, 2007)

Hi. I had the same thing with Charlie. He started forming crystals and began peeing in the house long after he was potty trained. The vet switched his food to Hills Canine CD( urinary health diet) and that was the end of the problem. I hope that helps.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

ya, both her vet AND Sabine insist that her food isn't the problem, maybe IF it is crystals again they will consider changing her diet... I homecook for her.


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

Tammy- have your vet rule out UTI, crystals/stones etc but honestly to me it almost sounds like spay incontinence. 
http://www.ehow.com/about_6518222_spay-incontinence_.html


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

Sigh... yes Katie, me too.... I am just hoping that isn't the case. Is it common to happen so far after the spay? I know she isn't doing it on purpose. Have you ever experienced this with any of your pups??

Vet just called, can't get her in until Tuesday!?  I told them to PLEASE call me if they have ANY cancelations.


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## AnnaM (Jun 2, 2012)

Sorry Tammy I have nothing conctructive to add, just hope things work out...


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

Yes actually, a few years ago one of my pups got it. And yes, from what I have read it is pretty common for it to happen even years after a spay. I know the pup of mine that has it is on medication and she is doing great.
Is there any other vet in your area that you could take her too? I think it might be worth it to get her in before Tuesday!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

there are some other vets, but honestly none that I would trust at all with Tillie.
Her vet is all kinds of awesome.  I am praying that there is an opening somehow today...
Also, I am wondering if I should "give" her the rest of her crate back and her bed now that I've ruled out her doing it on purpose...?


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

Will check this thread, _hope things get better_.
I'm sure you will have a vet visit earlier as people cancel.
Best to know if you need to change her food.
How is her mood?


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Tammy, I am so sorry to hear this. Once you rule out the obvious causes, perhaps you need to do a bit of experimentation... as we all know with dr's, vets and nutritionists don't know everything. so much is trial and error, and every dog and human is different. Just like some people do great on low carb or gluten free...others are much better on something else... and often you will never really know what it is that really helped. But it does help. 

Is there anything new? a new brand of supplement? new treat? different brand of meat or veggies you use for her meals? did you change supermarkets? are you by accident adding too much of the supplement mix to her food? is she on any meds even if she has been on them for a while? (Cash had frequent peeing when on claritin...stopped when we stopped the drug) I think I mentioned Cash failed on home cooked, he had the worst hot spots ever. I believe it was due to supplements as the commercial raw only has vitamin e in it...everything else is from food. trial and error I learned that Cash does better with no added veggies. I would be inclined try a very simple version of your recipe for a while... her protein and carb... and see if it gets better... then add back in one more ingredient at a time, leave the supplement mix for last. 

I just wouldn't overlook diet... it is too huge a part of the make up of their health to not think it could be playing a role. 

I know how frustrating this is. I will be hoping you find answers. 

one medical thing to check with the vet is parasites? I think I have read that some microscopic parasites (not the usual worms) can cause bed wetting in humans could happen in dogs too...


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

Oh, Tammy - so sorry to log on here and read this! Wait until Tuesday? I hope they will be calling you back due to a cancellation too. Think she definitely needs to be checked out due to her history. Just curious - did Sabine do any adjusting of her recipe to increase the acidity? After Augie's first bout, the vet did mention that we wanted to find a food with a pH between a certain range, optimal 6.5 I believe, but wouldn't you know, I can't find my notes. We have had once or twice where Augie has peed on the rug in front of the door since his UTI. And I don't think he can hold it as long as before his UTI. At any rate, I hope you are able to get her in and get it figured out so she doesn't return to the place she was before with the trembling. If it is UTI, you certainly want it treated. If it is spay incontinence, and there is med. to help that, well you would want to find that out too. How is her demeanor? Is she still the happy girl?


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

ya, nothing has changed in her diet or environment.
She is mostly herself, happy, barking, playing with the cats ...
I really want to see if we can change her diet... but what can I do if both the vet AND Sabine insist it isn't her diet!? I don't know how to balance it myself...


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## heatherk (Feb 24, 2011)

((hugs))


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## jemmax (Jan 3, 2012)

Big hugs to you both and fingers crossed the vet can figure out what is going on with sweet Tillie :hug:


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

Also, IF it IS spay incontinence is it "normal" for it only to be a problem at night??


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

thanks everyone...


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

Tammy, I'm so sorry to hear this! I hope you can get in to a vet soon.


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

TilliesMom said:


> ya, nothing has changed in her diet or environment.
> She is mostly herself, happy, barking, playing with the cats ...
> I really want to see if we can change her diet... but what can I do if both the vet AND Sabine insist it isn't her diet!? I don't know how to balance it myself...


Both times Augie had UTI, his vet put him on a 'urinary diet' for a month to calm his bladder down. His bladder was pretty inflamed. One of the gals in the vet's office was telling me that one of her dogs was peeing all the time and she took the urinary diet (it is prescription) home and her dog improved right away. I need to ask more questions as to what is in this food that is helpful to the bladder, and is it harmful to other system health to be on it longer term - maybe I don't want to know? The first time, Augie gained a lb in a month, so I was careful to cut his ration down this time. He thinks it is very tasty - have never seen him go after food like he goes for it. It just made me think that there IS something in these urinary diets that must be helpful, at least for the episode. I asked about cranberry supplement and she ordered some up for me - comes in a gelcap and I cut one open and sprinkle half on his meals. She has not used it before, so is watching to see if it is helpful.


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## misstray (Feb 6, 2011)

So sorry to hear this Tammy. Hope you get answers soon.


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## whimsy (Apr 3, 2010)

I am so sorry..makes me feel so bad for you both. Glad she seems happy tho,that means she is probably not in pain..that's a positive!! Hope you can get in sooner. Keep us posted.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TilliesMom said:


> there are some other vets, but honestly none that I would trust at all with Tillie.
> Her vet is all kinds of awesome.  I am praying that there is an opening somehow today...
> Also, I am wondering if I should "give" her the rest of her crate back and her bed now that I've ruled out her doing it on purpose...?


Tammy, is her crate big enough that you could put her bed in one end and a pee pad in the other end? (and would she use it?) If it happens while she's asleep, it probably wouldn't help, but if she just can't hold it until the next time you take her out, it would at least give her an option of not going in her bed. (also meaning less laundry and dog bathing for you!)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TilliesMom said:


> Also, IF it IS spay incontinence is it "normal" for it only to be a problem at night??


I think, from what I've read, it CAN happen just when they are sleeping, and their muscles relax.


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

*Links to Crystals in Urine*

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/13_4/features/Detecting-Urinary-Stones-Dogs_16215-1.html
http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/urinary/c_multi_crystalluria#.UTpMQhyG2Sohttp://www.natural-dog-health-remedies.com/canine-bladder-stones.html

http://www.natural-dog-health-remedies.com/canine-bladder-stones.html
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/130616.htm


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## Sparkle (May 17, 2012)

TilliesMom said:


> She doesn't drink at.all. so no 'taking the water up'
> 
> This is the comment that bothers me the most. Do you mean she's not drinking water "at all" or just not during the night? I could see the crystals easily forming is she isn't hydrating enough.
> 
> Hoping for the best for Tillie!


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

If she is not drinking and that is the problem you will have to squirt some water into her mouth.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

as for the 'not drinking' she actually STOPPED drinking water around November when all this started... I have been adding a boat load of water to her home cooked food, it is the only way she is staying hydrated. She laps it all up... sigh.
I just called and they didn't have any cancelations.

I was curious as to if/how she does during the day because I'm not seeing that she's peeing in her crate during the day while I am gone for work... and I think I figured out why. I recorded her while I was gone for almost 3 hrs... she doesn't sleep while I'm gone!!!? She worked on her kong FOR.EVER. and then she just laid there eyes open, staring... every once in a while she'd let out a little whimper. turn around, lay down, give a big huff and just stare.... sweet girl. So, I really will be surprised if it's a UTI/crystals... as it really does seem to be happening only at night... and I am taking her out every time I get up.

Karen, I actually tried that set up ... it just confuses her as she does not know what to DO with a pee pad. she still pee'd on/under her bed ... sigh.


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## andra (Aug 23, 2010)

I certainly can understand how upsetting chronic medical issues can be--I have had a few that I have had to work through with Dionna. It has trained me to be a problem solver, so here are some additional thoughts to consider. Keep in mind, these are just some additional angles to consider, not that these are the answers. I agree with going to the vet for additional guidance:

Some additional thoughts would be to switch to distilled water--I have done this recently and Dionna's eye crusties have completely gone and her ongoing issues with her pee pee place has improved (she has this chronic cycle of getting an irritated and slightly crusty-ish pp and then I use this wash and creme from the vet, it improves and then happens again; she over licks it which gets the cycle of inflammation started  ) All water on the planet, unfortunately, has pharmaceuticals in it and there are virtually no filters that get these out completely (except distillers)--so switching to distilled may help her. 

Also, what kind of water bowl do you use and is it from China? If so, switch to something made in the USA. Some bowls from China slowly leach out yucky stuff and are not really safe in the long run. 

What kinds of detergent are you using on her towels and are you using any dryer sheets? These can be toxic and with ongoing exposure, can cause health issues. It is best to launder your dog's towels separately and use organic soaps etc.


I realize that her issue is most likely another UTI/crystals and/or possibly behavioral. I am not an expert  However, I spent two weeks at a holistic health clinic (for me, not for Dionna LOL) and I was amazed at what I learned and the *miracles* that I witnessed (i.e. staff members who were former patients who have their stage 4 cancers in remission for years)--this place really emphasized minimizing exposures and reducing our toxic footprints so to speak. I specifically asked about applying these concepts to my dog as I want her to live long too. And they agreed 

So, the above is presented with love and concern....because again, I have been there regarding chronic issues and how concerning it can be.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Yes, I am going through this right now with my father-in-law's 9 year old Yorkie, Murphy. 
She had a bout with bladder stones a couple of years ago. Surgery and a special diet took care of that and she was fine for about a year and then she started leaking urine while she slept. Never when she was awake. Took her to the vet for a urine test and culture. She was put on medication for a week or so and it cleared up. 
Fast forward to last week and once again, leaking urine in her sleep but otherwise happy, healthy, etc. 
Went to the vet yesterday and he is doing another urine test and culture. Something in the ultrasound during the urine extraction caught his eye so he suggested an x-ray and full bloodwork (mind you she just had a CBC two weeks ago prior to a teeth cleaning but this one is supposedly even more thorough). He said it could be as simple as another UTI. He said possible spay incontinence but said that usually happens in younger dogs, so not likely. He is also concerned about possible gallstones since he saw no sign of bladder stones but other organs weren't exactly as they should be in the x-ray. We are awaiting word on what the blood test and urine tests show though the culture will take several days. We are probably looking at another x-ray too since the one last night was within 30 minutes of her meal and her full tummy kinda skewed things.
All this to say, I know what you are going through and I hope you get to the bottom of it soon for your sake and for Tillie's.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Well it does seem odd that's its only at night. But then again if she was better after her back adjustment then maybe its that. I think its weird she doesn't want water.Does she get to run and exercise much?. Mine pee at least five or more times a day. And drink all day and night.
Everyone I know who's dog has had UTI were put on a special diet. What would it hurt to get the special food? If you read what Missy was saying it sounds like the same sort of skin issues Tillie was having when you first changed her diet. I think a dog can go for a bit with out all the extra stuff . Also I bet Sabin would work with you if you insisted on trying something new. Ask your vet why so many other vets change diets. I say if its still the UTI to change the food.:hug:


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Tammy - I did not have a chance to read all the other responses, which I am sure are helpful - but I thought I would tell you our experience. 

Many years ago, Lily had the same problem. I was told that when they have infections/crystals/stones , they will pee on beds because they seem to think that if it is soft, it will not hurt them so much., Lily had crystals in her bladder and went on SO (vet prescribed), she did fantastic and the crystals dissolved. After going back on regular water and food, she got them back again! My vet suggested that I keep her on the prescribed diet (which eventually went from SO - to WD -the weight control substitute. ) and that I move her to distilled water from regular water! I did both and she has had no problems! After 6 years on that diet, I thought, gosh I have been spending so much money on special food, that I moved her to normal food. 2 months later - she had crystals again!!!!! I found that the food, distilled water and lack of treats has kept her happy and healthy - she is 9 1/2 years old and doing great! I will NEVER go back to a normal diet with her again!!! 

Something to consider!


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Tammy,
I am so sorry you are having to deal with this again. My heart breaks for you. I hope you get to the bottom of this. I think changing her diet to the prescription food might just be worth a try. It can't hurt anything......


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

yes, I will surely talk to the vet about changing her diet... if it is indeed an infection or crystals. I will also send an e-mail to Sabine... 
thank you for all of the advice and guidance. chronic problems suck.
I find it very interesting that she stopped peeing on OUR beds and is only peeing on HER bed.... at night.?


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## Miss Paige (Apr 4, 2008)

I have to agree with the others, this sounds like another UTI. My Frannie would "break through" pee at night. She had oxalate stones which was removed but we had to watch her urine for crystals. I have my dogs on distilled water. Try the UTI food and see if that does not help. And remember she is probably not doing this to upset you.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

thanks Pat, oh I know she isn't doing this on purpose... it's either an infection or incotinence. Secretly I am a tad relieved that it is just happening on HER bed and not anywhere else... esp. since we have to get all the way to Tuesday for her to be seen. 
She doesn't seem to be in any pain or discomfort, isn't agitated, shaking or any other symptoms. If I didn't pick her bed up and feel and smell it in the morning, I would never even have a clue what was happening...
I will try the distilled water... and talk to the vet and Sabine about her diet, IF indeed it is another infection/crystals.


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## Sammi's Mama (Jul 19, 2012)

I had a Yorkie who was spayed by breeder before I got her at 3 months! My vet was not happy. She started urinating in her sleep and having lots of accidents when she was 2 or 3 (maybe older not sure). My vet prescribed Phenylpropanolamine. She wasn't on it very long but it helped. He thought it had something to do with the early spay. Also she grew larger due to early splay. 12lb Yorkie despite both parents 5lbs. Anyway this medicine did help a lot and was not long term.

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## Regina (Mar 9, 2013)

Hi Everyone, I am new here and I don't have a Havanese but hope to one day. I had a Bichon who passed away July 2012. BUT to TilliesMom I want to offer this advice if I may. My little guy had this same problem leaking urine in his bed but also had crystals in his urine. I had consulted with Dr. Jean Dodds, and she recommended that I give him 3-4 dried cranberrries per day. It worked, he never had the problem again and his urine cleared of the crystals. Hope this helps. As an aside I always gave him bottled water.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

interesting, thanks Regina, I'll ask the vet about the cranberries... I hate having to wait so long to get her in...


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## Ewokpup (Nov 3, 2012)

Does your vet have any recommendations of someone she could see before Tuesday? Maybe someone open Saturday if s/he isn't? Our vet has a person listed to call for after hours issues. 

I can't remember if you said or not...when she had the first UTI was the incontinence night time only? 

Is there a way you can record her at at night to see if she wakes up before peeing or if she does it while asleep? 

Have you thought about diapers for night time?


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

People will use Cranberry juice to ward off a UTI. I have had the experience myself. I had a UTI, my diagnosis, drank lots of cranberry juice and within a day or so it was gone. Cranberries sound reasonable to me. :grouphug:


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## HalleBerry (Feb 22, 2012)

I have cranberry pills that I gave one of my other dogs when he had a UTI - it certainly won't hurt Tillie if you want to try it.


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## MillyMolly (Feb 3, 2013)

Hi, I'm new to this forum, thought that I might give a word Of comfort to you : Had your Tillie been in any discomfort at all , I am sure her vet would have taken her in sooner than tuesday next. 
Regards Jette from Denmark.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Tammy, anything new with her water or water bowl? Reading other peoples replies made me think that was a worry too. Do you give her tap or filtered? Could something have changed in your towns water?

The cranberry is a great idea... I would not doubt anything dr. Dodds recommends... And it couldn't hurt. A nice sweet treat for Tilly. Also, there is dental product by vetri pet that also has cranberries, probiotics, and a bunch of other good stuff... And it's supposed to help with plaque and breath too... You just sprinkle it on their food.

http://www.vetriscience.com/perio-support-dogs-cats.php


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

How does a dog ingest cranberry? Is it a pill from the vet? Put it in their water?


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

TilliesMom said:


> yes, I will surely talk to the vet about changing her diet... if it is indeed an infection or crystals. I will also send an e-mail to Sabine...
> thank you for all of the advice and guidance. chronic problems suck.
> I find it very interesting that she stopped peeing on OUR beds and is only peeing on HER bed.... at night.?


It almost seems like when she is asleep and all muscles relaxed, she unknowly pees.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

gelbergirl said:


> How does a dog ingest cranberry? Is it a pill from the vet? Put it in their water?


As an experiment, I just handed Kodi a dried cranberry... He scoffed it right up with evident enjoyment!:laugh:


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

lfung5 said:


> It almost seems like when she is asleep and all muscles relaxed, she unknowly pees.


yes, that is what I think it going on... although her hind end is never wet?? ... I have been leaving her crate door open for about a year and she never tries to wake me up, whines, nothing... her towels were wet again this morning.
I can give her some cranberries, for sure, not sure if the dried ones will just pass right through her and not DO anything though. Actually, I DO have some straight juice, I'll give her some of that first... liquid is good!!
Nothing has changed with her water bowl or with the water that we are aware of, I will try distilled and see if that makes any difference.


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

gelbergirl said:


> How does a dog ingest cranberry? Is it a pill from the vet? Put it in their water?


We got cranberry gel capsules from the vet. It said 1/2 to 1 tablet twice a day. I have been opening them up and sprinkling a half capsule on Augie's food since he had his second UTI this winter. Finn is getting a bit of tear staining again. He was on a food that contained cranberry and blueberry, which the owner of the shop who sold me the food says was helpful for tear staining. But it also contains some potatoes and peas which he tested allergic to, so stopped feeding. So I am sprinkling the cranberry on his food too to see if it helps.


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## misstray (Feb 6, 2011)

http://raisinghealthydogs.com/the-health-benefits-of-cranberries-for-dogs


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

TilliesMom said:


> yes, I will surely talk to the vet about changing her diet... if it is indeed an infection or crystals. I will also send an e-mail to Sabine...
> thank you for all of the advice and guidance. chronic problems suck.
> I find it very interesting that she stopped peeing on OUR beds and is only peeing on HER bed.... at night.?


 I think she had gotten really bad the first time and that maybe she is just at the start of another infection.Maybe for now her bed could be made bigger so she can at least move to a dry towel. I went to the good will and bought some mattress pads and cut it up . It makes a cheap piddle pad.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

I was just reading up on special vet diet foods. And the one for UTI has added salt to make the dog drink more water. That was interesting maybe that's her whole problem! Mine drink about a three cup bowl a day. And more when we go for runs.


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## Regina (Mar 9, 2013)

krandall said:


> As an experiment, I just handed Kodi a dried cranberry... He scoffed it right up with evident enjoyment!:laugh:


yes! My kittle guy loved his dried cranberry treats.


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## Regina (Mar 9, 2013)

TilliesMom said:


> yes, that is what I think it going on... although her hind end is never wet?? ... I have been leaving her crate door open for about a year and she never tries to wake me up, whines, nothing... her towels were wet again this morning.
> I can give her some cranberries, for sure, not sure if the dried ones will just pass right through her and not DO anything though. Actually, I DO have some straight juice, I'll give her some of that first... liquid is good!!
> Nothing has changed with her water bowl or with the water that we are aware of, I will try distilled and see if that makes any difference.


Tammy, I never noticed that my little one passed them. And believe me I always examined his BM for any issues, it should be digested unless she has some IBS issues. You can try the juice, maybe diluted, cranberry juice on it's own is a bit sour tasting (to me at least). The cranberry powder from the capsules from the vet would-be another good option. I just always fed him as natural as possible including his homemade diet.


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## Milo's Mom (Aug 31, 2008)

I realize that your vet cannot see Tillie until Tuesday, but did he/she suggest bringing in a urine test to check for a UTI? I would hate to wait that long for medication when I have a UTI.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

I got some cranberry capsules today ... waiting to hear from her nutritionist...

took a good walk today ... does this look like a 'sick' dog??! lol 

sigh.


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## Regina (Mar 9, 2013)

Soooo cute!!! She looks pretty happy!


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## shimpli (Mar 24, 2010)

You are a happy girl, Tillie. Everything is going to be fine, Tammy. Hugs.

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## Milo's Mom (Aug 31, 2008)

She indeed looks happy and carefree! So cute!


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

shimpli said:


> You are a happy girl, Tillie. Everything is going to be fine, Tammy. Hugs.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


thanks :hug:


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## puppy-love (Nov 9, 2012)

I have no advice to offer, just love and prayers!

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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

*Urinary Incontinence*

Another thing to think about:

http://pets.webmd.com/dogs/dog-urinary-incontinence-and-bladder-problems


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

thanks for the link, this is def. what I am considering is going on also... we'll see.
Today I am rearranging her crate to where she will have a pee pad in 1/2 and her bed in 1/2... curious what happens. IF it IS incontinence the pee pad probably won't change anything... if fact she has no CLUE what a pee pad is!  but it's worth a shot...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TilliesMom said:


> thanks for the link, this is def. what I am considering is going on also... we'll see.
> Today I am rearranging her crate to where she will have a pee pad in 1/2 and her bed in 1/2... curious what happens. IF it IS incontinence the pee pad probably won't change anything... if fact she has no CLUE what a pee pad is!  but it's worth a shot...


Tammy, rub the pee pad on something she has peed on for the first few days so she can smell it. Of course, it won't help if it happens while she's sleeping, but if she's aware of it, and LOOKING for a place to pee, it will give her the idea that the pee pad is an OK pee spot.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

yes, good idea! I SHOULD have done that BEFORE I washed all her bed towels. sigh.
Another thing that leads me to think it is incontinence is that her pee doesn't smell strong at all, NOTHING like it was when she had the infections. In fact I have to sniff and sniff and sniff to see if she she in fact pee over night the pee smell is so faint.. often times it is wet and that's a no brainer, but the towels seem to absorb it really well!


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## Diann (Apr 25, 2011)

Hi Tammy, 

I've been following your posts; how is Tillie doing?


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

Hi Diann!! Tillie is actually doing fantastic actually... if it wasn't for the wet towels in her crate in the morning...  I have been taking her lots of places, going for walks, enjoying the gorgeous weather and she is her wonderfully joyful happy self.
I am second guessing myself IF I really HAVE to put her through the vet visit (I know I do) and wondering IF maybe she's always pee'd at night and somehow I haven't noticed??
Anyway, her appt is tomorrow and I'll post as soon as I can...


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## Miss Paige (Apr 4, 2008)

Tammy,
If it turns out not to be a UTI is there anyway you can take Tilly out mid night to pee. I get up at night to go potty (I am old-LOL) when I get up I get the " kids" up to go out. This middle of the night routine for them going out started when Frannie was alive & on so many heart Meds she could not go all night without a potty time, now it's just a habit for me to get the babies out through the night. Now mind you mine are all senior dogs.


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## waybrook (Sep 13, 2009)

It's interesting her backside isn't wet in the morning, but the towels are. You also mentioned the smell of urine is almost non-existent. Are you sure she's urinating? Could the moisture be something else? Probably silly, but it just seems odd. Will be interested to read what the vet thinks...

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

waybrook said:


> It's interesting her backside isn't wet in the morning, but the towels are. You also mentioned the smell of urine is almost non-existent. Are you sure she's urinating? Could the moisture be something else? Probably silly, but it just seems odd. Will be interested to read what the vet thinks...
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I agree, it is very odd... I DO take her out some times twice a night. I even leave her crate door open, but she NEVER comes wake me up or whimpers, nothing...?? not sure the vet will have any answers, but worth a shot.
My her back is out again causing incontinence???


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

I think if it were her back causing it she would do it all the time. It sounds more like the spray incontinence others mentioned but I don't know much about this myself. Isn't Tillie's appt. today? Make a list of everything you want to discuss. I find that helps tremendously!


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## Regina (Mar 9, 2013)

waybrook said:


> It's interesting her backside isn't wet in the morning, but the towels are. You also mentioned the smell of urine is almost non-existent. Are you sure she's urinating? Could the moisture be something else? Probably silly, but it just seems odd. Will be interested to read what the vet thinks...
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I thought the same thing, and have been trying to rack my brain thinking of different scenarios. Just a reeaal long shot Tammy BUT,...is her water bowl nearby? Do you think she brings her water bowl in there at night? I know it sounds odd, but my brothers dog actually carries his food and water bowl into the living room to be with his peeps while he eats


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

Okay, we're back. finally. Talked to the Dr he is also feeling it could very well be the begining of spay incontinence. He did a urinalysis and it came back CLEAR, no bacteria, no blood, no white blood cells, no crystals. SO, we are def. dealing with something physical.
He actually discovered her back was out of alignment in the same spot. again. so it could very well be that is the issue... BUT we can't tell for sure, so he actually put her on a low dose soy bean derived form of estrogen as well as the chiropractic adjustment and laser treatment. sigh. So, pretty much what I expected.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

glad you got some answers. Your vet was right right? You have a good vet Tammy, he's a keeper. Hope you find some solutions. Hugs


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## sandypaws (Aug 8, 2012)

*Back to the vet*



TilliesMom said:


> Okay, we're back. finally. Talked to the Dr he is also feeling it could very well be the begining of spay incontinence. He did a urinalysis and it came back CLEAR, no bacteria, no blood, no white blood cells, no crystals. SO, we are def. dealing with something physical.
> He actually discovered her back was out of alignment in the same spot. again. so it could very well be that is the issue... BUT we can't tell for sure, so he actually put her on a low dose soy bean derived form of estrogen as well as the chiropractic adjustment and laser treatment. sigh. So, pretty much what I expected.


Glad she doesn't have a UTI and/or crystals again, Tammy. Sounds like you're on the right track and I hope the adjustment and meds help her, although it doesn't sound as though she's been in any pain or discomfort, thank goodness. have her trembling episodes subsided? Chin up. My thoughts are with you.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Hugs to you, Tammy. This is hard. I sure hope the soy med works!


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## Atticus (May 17, 2011)

So sorry about this Tammy. I have had two elderly female dogs who had this problem, because of age. I had special waterproof beds with covers that I washed every day and there was some medicine that helped a lot too. It's especially hard that Tillie is so young tho. So sorry about this I hope she is not doing the quivering thing,you haven't mentioned it so I hope she is feeling ok.


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## Regina (Mar 9, 2013)

So very glad it is not another infection...sending positive thoughts your way.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

thanks everyone!
Ya, she had been trembling just a little bit over the past week or so in the morning only.
The vet said that is her cue to tell me something is wrong and to get her back in right away if/when it happens again.


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## Ewokpup (Nov 3, 2012)

Regina said:


> I thought the same thing, and have been trying to rack my brain thinking of different scenarios. Just a reeaal long shot Tammy BUT,...is her water bowl nearby? Do you think she brings her water bowl in there at night? I know it sounds odd, but my brothers dog actually carries his food and water bowl into the living room to be with his peeps while he eats


What about drool?


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## whimsy (Apr 3, 2010)

glad you got to the bottom of things and hope the meds work well for her!!


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Did you talk to him about her not drink much water?


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

yes, he just continued to encourage me to keep adding water to her food. I am hoping as it gets warmer she will start drinking on her own again...


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Glad to hear you seem to be getting to the bottom of this! You are a great mommy! I had no idea that spaying could cause incontanance. That'ss awful.


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

Tammy- maybe you could try to leave the towels/blankets out of her crate. There is no harm in having her sleep in just the crate for a few nights. Maybe she is peeing because it's convienent?


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## HalleBerry (Feb 22, 2012)

I would guess that Tillie doesn't know that she's doing it - she is able to hold her bladder when she's up and about; she's taken outside plenty of times so it's not about that either. This seems to be more about when she's totally relaxed (ie asleep) she does not have bladder control and leaks urine.


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

Good news about Tillie at least in the bacterial department. I hope you're able to get to the bottom of this, you seem to be very positive about the situation which I'm sure is helpful to Tillie in the stress department.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

MopTop Havanese said:


> Tammy- maybe you could try to leave the towels/blankets out of her crate. There is no harm in having her sleep in just the crate for a few nights. Maybe she is peeing because it's convienent?


funny you mention this Katie... I actually DID take her towels out one night ... woke up and the were IN the crate. wet. Turns out my HUSBAND felt bad for her and didn't want her to be cold.... sigh.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Glad to hear that it isn't an infection. I hope the meds work for you. 
My father in law's Yorkie's tests all came back negative, even the urine culture. They are concerned that her urine is so dilute though. Next step is medication to help the sphincter (not THAT sphincter..LOL) do its job and we wait and see.


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

hope Tillie continues to do well.


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## sashamom (Jan 12, 2009)

Tammy could you try a band of some sort for her at night? That way she doesn't get everything wet and she doesn't get her coat wet. It might help until this is under control. LB


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

ya, maybe, the odd thing is that her coat isn't wet somehow.... :suspicious:


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

is there room enough for her to get up and go and then settle back to a dry spot.
Meaning, and please do not laugh here, but maybe it is like an automatic sleep-walking kind of thing?


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

no clue. I guess it could be possible.... I need House M.D.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TilliesMom said:


> no clue. I guess it could be possible.... I need House M.D.


Not him! He's too mean to his patients!:biggrin1:


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## Ewokpup (Nov 3, 2012)

HalleBerry said:


> I would guess that Tillie doesn't know that she's doing it - she is able to hold her bladder when she's up and about; she's taken outside plenty of times so it's not about that either. This seems to be more about when she's totally relaxed (ie asleep) she does not have bladder control and leaks urine.


Maybe some kind of sleep issue? Maybe she dreams she is outside peeing and so her body goes along with the dream? Or some dream that leads to submissive or excitement urination?

Of course I have no idea if dogs have sleep disorders, or what their dreams are like. So my reply might be all science fiction and trying to give a dog human traits.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

I know you want an answer so badly  I'm sorry you are still going through this..


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## HalleBerry (Feb 22, 2012)

Reading information on canine incontinence:

http://www.ehow.com/how_4509875_help-dog-sleep-incontinence.html

http://www.vet4petz.com/articles/urinary_incontinence.htm

http://www.natural-dog-health-remedies.com/dog-incontinence.html


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

Glad to hear it isn't crystals or a UTI. But wish you had a more definitive answer. There was another thread about someone videoing their pup while they were gone. Can your husband rig up something to video her one night to see what she is doing (he is a computer person, right?). I would think if she is sleeping and peeing on towels that she would be damp. Towels aren't very good at wicking away moisture. I hope the meds help.


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