# housebreaking frustration



## Scarlett's mom (Feb 14, 2017)

OK Willow is now close to six months old. While I don't have unrealistic expectations I do have concerns. She gives absolutely no indication when she needs to go out. I figured we had to be missing something so we've been careful to look for cues but this morning I was on the floor playing fetch with her when she ran behind the sofa and started to poop. I quickly scooped her up and took her outside. There was no sign she needed to go out! She had already been out twice and had gone both times. Scarlett was so easy to housebreak and this one is driving me nuts to the point I am ready to give her back! I find I have to crate her more often which is fine but I don't want her to spend her life in a crate! We did not teach Scarlett to ring bells to go out. She taught herself. She figured out that if she rang the bells when she was alone locked in the kitchen we would appear. That carried over to her having to go out. Smarty pants dog. Willow doesn't care if she is left alone. I have also been trying to remember to take treats outside to have a party when she poops. So far it hasn't made much difference. I have read pretty much all the housebreaking posts here and looked up so much stuff online. This is very stressful for me having to be concerned about her every minute she's not crated. Not fun. When she is not in her crate she is confined to the kitchen or if we are in our family room, she is too. Not sure what else we can do. I can only hope that in the future something will click with her or she will end up back in TN! Rant over..thanks the vent session.


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## MollyRose (Apr 1, 2016)

Ugh! That definitely would frustrate me too. I don't have a lot to offer in the way of advice, just encouragement. It sounds like you're doing all the right things with Willow. Maybe she just needs a little more time. If I can remember, Molly wasn't fully trained until she was a little over a year. She's three now and rarely has an accident anymore (now that I'm writing this I'm sure she will - Murphy's law). Keep hanging in there, I'm certain she will eventually follow Scarlett's lead and figure things out. And for the record, no matter how many times I tried to train Molly to ring the bell, it wasn't until my cat figured out what it was meant for that Molly picked up on it. It was like a lightbulb clicked. Maybe it will be the same for Willow. She just needs to watch Scarlett,..


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

You have my sympathy. I don't know what advice to give. It sounds like you've been reading a lot. Hang in there. Stay in touch!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Sounds like you are closely supervising but that she can dart out of your sight very quickly. I know that it's a pain to keep her leashed to you while you're playing, but what about keeping a leash on her that you can grab if she tries to dart away to poop/ pee? that way you can keep her close to you and in your line of sight at all times and move her quickly outside when she even looks suspicious but still let her run around while you play?


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## Scarlett's mom (Feb 14, 2017)

Melissa Brill said:


> Sounds like you are closely supervising but that she can dart out of your sight very quickly. I know that it's a pain to keep her leashed to you while you're playing, but what about keeping a leash on her that you can grab if she tries to dart away to poop/ pee? that way you can keep her close to you and in your line of sight at all times and move her quickly outside when she even looks suspicious but still let her run around while you play?


Ah! Haven't tried that yet and I had planned on it! Thanks!


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## Cheerios (Dec 16, 2017)

My puppy Ricky is about 4 and half months and I am in the same place. I have gotten to the point where his feedings are on a pretty routine schedule so I kind of know when he should be doing his poops. That has helped me but I'm still overly paranoid and he spends time in his ex-pen when he hasn't done his poops and I know he is due. I definitely feel like bad cop around my house, always watching him and taking him out constantly. I have no suggestions but I totally feel your pain.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Unfortunately, every puppy is different, and it takes as long as it takes. The important thing is to make sure she is supervised and confined enough that she doesn't HAVE accidents.

It took Kodi TWO YEARS to develop a "signal". He didn't have accidents, but I felt like _I_ had been "trained" to take him out at the right times. Then, all of a sudden, he went to the door and barked. From then on, he "had" his signal! LOL!


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## jaca2560 (Jan 24, 2018)

I am in the same boat. My Brady is 5 months and I have to watch him like a hawk! I can take him out a million times but if I turn my back on him in the house he'll sneak off and pee somewhere. Makes me crazy!!! I've started crating him like I did when we first brought him home. He is fed on a schedule and is taken out constantly to the same spot to go but he hasn't figured out how to "tell" us he needs to go. Good luck with Willow. If you find a remedy, please share!


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## DuketheDog (May 1, 2017)

It will get better! You sound like you are doing absolutely everything right, stay positive and keep trucking! It can only get better right?


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Disheartening to read. I have a 3 month who has a large x-pen with a door that opens into a tiled family kitchen. A second kitchen entrance is blocked off, so she is confined to one area of the house which has been puppy proofed.

In the x-pen I have Turf Potty Pads which she instinctively went to at 8 weeks. She will leave the kitchen room area and go into her x-pen to potty without prompting. She's had two accidents. One was the second day and the other was yesterday.

My daughter encouraged us put a Turf Potty Pad in our bathroom next to our bedroom. Patti sleeps in a crate in our bedroom at night. She whines and gets up around 4 a.m. Sometimes we take her outside or to her indoor x-pen Turf Pad to potty. She quickly potties after asking to go get out. For the last few nights we've taken her into the bathroom and she's walked onto the Turf Pad to potty.

We want her to go outside but we, also, need her to be house trained to a potty pad indoors when we travel to the mountains during the summer and stay in a condo that has no access to a yard. Unless I have my eyes on her I don't let her out of the kitchen area unleashed. 

Patti has been so good about going on the Turf Potty Pads we've gotten lazy about taking her outside. I am very conflicted about what we should do.

We have a Goodle-doodle and in the past had a Poodle and Schnauzer. We've always had a doggie door for the dogs to go out when they need to go. Those dogs were very easy to house train once they knew how to get out. A Doggie Door keeps your doors from being scratched and you having to constantly be available to let them out. I hope to eventually transition our Havanese to the doggie door ... but I also want her to be house trained to some type of indoor doggie potty station when the weather is bad or circumstances are such it's easier indoors. (I don't like the turf pads and I'm switching to Paws Trax).

Anyway ... I have no advice as I'm learning. If anyone has advice I can use it. I don't know how long it will be before Patti can be turned loose to run around in the house ... but right now I don't plan on that happening for probably a year. 

Thanks for starting this thread.


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## kbritt (Sep 25, 2017)

Patrick (8 months) gives no signals at all. We were so good at taking him out often that he never had to ask on his own. I hope we're not paying the price now.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

kbritt said:


> Patrick (8 months) gives no signals at all. We were so good at taking him out often that he never had to ask on his own. I hope we're not paying the price now.


Nope. It takes as long as it takes. SOME of them can learn to ring a bell to go out, but that's not without it's training curve too. Those that like it, soon learn that the door gets opened every time they ring the bell, so they start ringing it ALL the time. And you DO have to respond, every time, if you want them to learn it. Eventually, the novelty wears off, but they can drive you batty in the meantime!!!

Kodi, who is a smart dog and learns things pretty easily HATED the bells and wouldn't touch them. After working on it with him for almost a year, we gave up and took them down. All we were getting was scratched woodwork.  But he eventually learned his own "cue" to tell us he needed to go out. Pixel scratches on the glass of the back door, Panda goes and runs in circles on the grate of the litter box in the kitchen. (which she DOESN'T want to use) When she hears us coming, she runs to the back door.

But, honestly, none of them "tell" us very often. It's usually an "emergency" when they do. Most of the time, they potty on a schedule. They go out before and after breakfast. Then once or twice during the day... Either because we're all in the kitchen and I send them out, or because we've been out somewhere, and I send them out when we get home. They also all potty on command before I put them in the car when we are going somewhere. They go out again after supper usually, and finally, right before we all go up to bed. So it's only if one of them feels an urgent need for an "extra" potty time that they need to "tell" us.


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## Henry&Kate (Mar 29, 2017)

I feel as if Henry might just be starting to signal at 10 months (by coming to me and barking) but I'm not convinced it's totally reliable yet. I've definitely been in the watch him like a hawk camp and ex pen when I can't. And felt guilty that he wasn't running around but didn't feel I had an alternative. And the signs before the barking have been subtle and depended on me really paying attention. He starts heading over towards a certain area in the living room when he's getting antsy. 

We're struggling with the generalization concept. he knows he's not supposed to go in OUR house. But he hasn't managed to carry that prohibition over to all indoor situations. We were in the post office the other day and he got into position to poop and I was "Noooooooo..." while scooping him to get him outside. we made it. just.


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## ptgrin (Feb 17, 2018)

Piper is 5 mos old. She drags a leash around the house always. She used to be attached to my belt, but now I can see and hear her in our kitchen/great room. She is nowhere near trustworthy. She is on a feeding and potty schedule. We also alternate between outdoors and a potty pad in a fram out in our attached garage. She needs to be comfortabke with boat as we sail and live on our boat all summer, so she diesn’t have to “hold” it for an extended time. So, MY PROBLEM IS she has a night crate (never any accidents) and a day crate out in our great room where she can see everyone. She hates that crate. Always used positively with a treat, but if we leave the house with her in the crate she almost always uses it as a potty. We have a divider in it so she gets just enough room to turn around and laydown (also stand too). I’ll actually catch her walking in there after breakfast, which is a sure signal that ahe has to go out. Any suggestions? Do I have to get rid of ir move the crate, ir something else?


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## ptgrin (Feb 17, 2018)

Sorry about all the errors in my previous post, I was trying to do it without my glasses. I’m a former English teacher. Ugh!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Henry&Kate said:


> I feel as if Henry might just be starting to signal at 10 months (by coming to me and barking) but I'm not convinced it's totally reliable yet. I've definitely been in the watch him like a hawk camp and ex-pen when I can't. And felt guilty that he wasn't running around but didn't feel I had an alternative. And the signs before the barking have been subtle and depended on me really paying attention. He starts heading over towards a certain area in the living room when he's getting antsy.
> 
> We're struggling with the generalization concept. he knows he's not supposed to go in OUR house. But he hasn't managed to carry that prohibition over to all indoor situations. We were in the post office the other day and he got into position to poop and I was "Noooooooo..." while scooping him to get him outside. we made it. just.


Yup, dogs are NOT good at generalizing! I got around that particular problem by teaching ALL of mine to potty on cue. Very early. So I can "empty them out" before going in a building. They are really pretty funny. They are like little kids, rolling their eyes when told to potty before getting in the car. They squat and squeeze out whatever they can, just to make me happy.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dogs that potty in crates is a big (and fairly unusual) problem. Since she does know about a potty tray, I think I'd enlarge her "day area" to a fairly small ex-pen area, with a bed in one side, the potty tray in the other side, and no other options. You want to give her every chance to be right, and as little option to be wrong as possible.

When Panda was a puppy she got a UTI, and convinced herself that her potty tray had caused her misery. She stopped using it. We closed the ex-pen down small enough that she had no option for a couple of weeks. We called it "puppy jail". When she had been using the tray reliably that way for a couple of weeks, we expanded it back to normal size... problem solved.

The first photo below is Panda in "Puppy Jail". The second as our "normal" configuration of the pen for both girls when we couldn't have "eyes on".


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## Scarlett's mom (Feb 14, 2017)

We do have a regular feeding and outside schedule ...same thing every day at the same time. I had to take away the pads because anything on the floor became a pee pad. Willow is also a "three-pee-er" she always goes three times outside. Occasionally she is a "two-pooper". There are days when she poops five or six times and other days three...it's nuts! Yesterday she had been out and not long after stood right in front of me making eye contact and peed on the carpet. She seems to know it was wrong based on her behavior afterward. Like "I'm sorry...I couldn't help it". The crazy thing is when my daughter babysits them at her house she doesn't go in the house. This weekend will be her first time at the shore house. Scarlett had a thing for peeing in there as soon as we got inside but not at home. Crazy animals. 

BTW Scarlett has her own Instagram account...scarlettschronicles.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

We have a similar situation where we move to the mountains in the summer and live in a condo with no easy access to a yard. Therefore, we are house training our 3 mo pup to use an indoor potty.

If you have the room you might consider the Richell Ex-Pen linked below. I think, you pup might be happier and will have a potty pad to relief itself. It is 2 feet wide, 5 feet long and 2 feet high with bottom and a gate you can open and close to let the puppy run in and out of when your around. You can put the pups bed, toys, food/water bowel and a Paw Trax (Turf Pad) inside this ex-pen.

We a similar (but larger) Richell ex-pen next to our family room kitchen. (photo below) The ex-pen door opens into the kitchen area. The second kitchen entrance is gated. Therefore, Patti can move in and out of her ex-pen into the kitchen when we are there to watch. We put her into the ex-pen if we leave the area. She's loves her ex-pen and runs back and forth playing, hiding her chew bones in her bed. She's a long way from being trust worthy but Patti instinctively uses the Turf Pad. She will play in the kitchen and go back into her ex-pen to potty without prompting. When we are not in the family room kitchen area or leave the home we put in the ex-pen and close the door. She has a place to potty, play and sleep. At night we take her into our bedroom and she sleeps in a small crate. When we wakes we take her to her potty pad in the ex-pen. Recently, we put a Paw Trax pad in out bathroom next to the bedroom and have been taking her there. She automatically goes to the potty pad.

We like the Richell ex-pen so much we bought and second one (the one linked below) which is smaller for our condo in Colorado. I would have bought this for our home but didn't know it came in this size. I forgot puppies are as expensive and more trouble than a baby. 

https://www.houzz.com/product/41606...own-small-contemporary-dog-kennels-and-crates


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Krandall, thanks to your recommendation on another thread I purchased the Paw Trax Pads switching from the Turf Pad. The Turf Pad was a great beginning but it's a maintenance problem and has an odor. Plus, our puppy liked laying on it to play. Thanks for another idea if I have problems with getting her to switch from Turf to Paws Trax. I'll reduce the size of her pen.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

My son told me about a friend of his who lives on a boat with two good size dogs. The buy the real grass for their dogs to potty on.


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## cishepard (Apr 8, 2018)

Mitzi, my MinPin, was already housebroken to the outside and trained on a cue (‘go pee’) when we took her on a 2 month sailing trip.
On the first day, I put a pee pad on the bench in the cockpit, pointed at it and said, “go pee” and she did! Used it ever after when we couldn’t row to shore and never used one again after we sold the boat.
Can’t over emphasize the convenience of training them to ‘go’ on command.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Scarlett's mom said:


> We do have a regular feeding and outside schedule ...same thing every day at the same time. I had to take away the pads because anything on the floor became a pee pad.


This is a common problem with washable pee pads. But I don't use pee pads period, and this is one of the reasons. There is NO mistaking a litter box with any "normal" household surface.



Scarlett's mom said:


> Willow is also a "three-pee-er" she always goes three times outside. Occasionally she is a "two-pooper". There are days when she poops five or six times and other days three...it's nuts!


If you know that about her, it's up to you to accommodate that. It may change as she matures, but for now, the important thing is to teach her where to go and where NOT to go. By making it just about impossible for her to do the wrong thing.



Scarlett's mom said:


> Yesterday she had been out and not long after stood right in front of me making eye contact and peed on the carpet. She seems to know it was wrong based on her behavior afterward. Like "I'm sorry...I couldn't help it".


Sorry. I don't believe it. Dogs want to please us. When they do something like that, it shows a TOTAL lack of ability to do what you want, under those circumstances, at that time. She DOES know that she upset you. And that makes her behave slightly fearful. Which people mis-read as "feeling guilty". Dogs are not capable of that emotion.



Scarlett's mom said:


> The crazy thing is when my daughter babysits them at her house she doesn't go in the house.


There are a couple of possibilities. Either your daughter has been more successful at catching her signals, so has managed to teach Scarlet to be more successful in her presence, or if your daughter has an older, fully house trained dog, Scarlet may be following the lead of that dog. I had to do much less "active" house training with Pixel and Panda, because they just followed Kodi outside and did what he did.



Scarlett's mom said:


> This weekend will be her first time at the shore house. Scarlett had a thing for peeing in there as soon as we got inside but not at home. Crazy animals.


If you KNOW that, and she has never been to this house, this is the PERFECT training opportunity. Keep her outside and wait till she potties. Praise her and have a party. THEN take her in. If you CAN'T get her to go outside, pop her straight into her crate or ex-pen, whichever you use for confinement. In half an hour, take her back outside. If she potties, she can have some CLOSELY SUPERVISED time with the family. If not, back into confinement. Do it as many times as it takes. Unless she has JUSt pottied, she needs to be either in her confinement or sitting in someone's lap. No exceptions. If you set your mind to it, this is the PERFECT training opportunity. It may seem like a lot of work when you want to be on vacation, but if you get it right, it means that you can have worry free vacation experiences for the next 15 years or so!

BTW Scarlett has her own Instagram account...scarlettschronicles.[/QUOTE]


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> My son told me about a friend of his who lives on a boat with two good size dogs. The buy the real grass for their dogs to potty on.


I have a friend who used real turf for her last litter of puppies. It's expensive, and the problem is, you can't TELL if the puppy has peed on it. So it wasn't without its problems. She went back to litter boxes before the puppies left for their forever homes. She is not intending to use the turf again.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Shama scratches the door to outside when she wants to go out, and if we're not near that door, she scratches whatever door is near. She doesn't scratch too often, however, because we continue to take her out pretty frequently, every couple of hours if we're home. (When we're at work, she waits from 6 AM to 11 AM to go outside with our dog walker, then she waits from noon until 4 PM to go outside with us.) Hang in there! (I agree with Karen about the training opportunity you'll have on your vacation.)


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

Melissa Brill said:


> Sounds like you are closely supervising but that she can dart out of your sight very quickly. I know that it's a pain to keep her leashed to you while you're playing, but what about keeping a leash on her that you can grab if she tries to dart away to poop/ pee? that way you can keep her close to you and in your line of sight at all times and move her quickly outside when she even looks suspicious but still let her run around while you play?


One of my books suggest keeping the other end of the leash clipped to a belt loop. It really helped Kosmo. He learned that he was stuck to me like in a terrible Jim Carry movie unless he went while offered the outside opportunity.


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## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

Scarlett's mom said:


> We do have a regular feeding and outside schedule ...same thing every day at the same time. I had to take away the pads because anything on the floor became a pee pad. Willow is also a "three-pee-er" she always goes three times outside. Occasionally she is a "two-pooper". There are days when she poops five or six times and other days three...it's nuts! Yesterday she had been out and not long after stood right in front of me making eye contact and peed on the carpet. She seems to know it was wrong based on her behavior afterward. Like "I'm sorry...I couldn't help it". The crazy thing is when my daughter babysits them at her house she doesn't go in the house. This weekend will be her first time at the shore house. Scarlett had a thing for peeing in there as soon as we got inside but not at home. Crazy animals.
> 
> BTW Scarlett has her own Instagram account...scarlettschronicles.


Zoey does this exact ritual sometimes, and she is a fearful dog. It is her way of begging me to make time for more training.


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