# Summer Cuts - Is long hair really more insulative?



## Teddy's Human (Sep 24, 2015)

Hi Everyone!

I have heard a few times that the full Havanese coat is insulating against the heat in the summer. Does anyone here have any experience with their own havs that agree? Has anyone had their havs in a long vs short coat over the summer that has an opinion either way?

I had mine in a puppy cut last summer due to the blowing coat phase, and Teddy didn't do super well in the heat. I've got his coat longer now (about 5 inches is the longest hair on the back) but he doesn't seem to be doing well now that its getting hotter and I'm tempted to go for a puppy cut again.

Just curious what everyone thinks! Thank you!

Nicole


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

I have also heard the coat protects the dog from heat and sunburn. Scout's coat is long. He definitely slows down when it is hot and always tries to find the coolest area to sleep. If I lived in an area where it was hot I would probably do a puppy cut.


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

Emmie does well in the heat with her long black coat and seems to like it. She usually chooses a sunny spot over a shady one, but if I'm worried about her overheating I make the choice for her.


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## DebW (Jun 11, 2013)

I've always wondered what scientific evidence that conjecture is based on. I doubt any of us would want to wear a fur coat to 'insolate' from the heat.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

My thinking is like Debs.

I just asked this question myself not long ago and I still don't understand how a long coat could make them cooler. I have read the reasons on google but wonder if anyone actually has done any real research on it or if it's theory. Just like I was told from show people here that Havanese can see fine through their hair...which makes no sense either, they can see through it like you or I can but not nearly as well as if it were trimmed away from the eyes completely. (I did my own little test with a tennis ball, threw it for Sophie before her bang trim and she would always take off at a different angle than the ball and listen for where it hit the ground, then turn and run that way. Then I did another video after her trim and she could track the ball directly every time). So I just wonder about the long coat idea being better in the heat, I know hair is a little different but people who have really thick hair are going to be hotter than people with really short hair. That is why animals shed in the summer, shorter coat keeps them cooler. I just can't imagine Havanese coat being so different than other animals it would make such a big difference for them in the heat.

Not that I'm saying it's not true about the Havanese coat but until I see proof it's hard to judge. 

I can though see how too short of coat would be bad for them in the heat, could cause sunburn and no insulation at all from sun. 

My Sophie gets hot really easily, she is black which I'm sure has something to do with it. A friend of mine has a white poodle and a black one and she said she does see a big difference in how the white can tolerate the heat better than the black. (having said that though it sounds like Emmy does well with the heat and she is black also so imagine several factors would be involved) .I have Sophie in her first puppy cut so am anxious to see if I can tell any difference in how hot she gets. I am guessing not at least not significantly if it's hot out they will be hot no matter what. I do think she is more comfortable in her puppy cut though and I know she appreciates the 85% less grooming time


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Heather Glen said:


> I have also heard the coat protects the dog from heat and sunburn. Scout's coat is long. He definitely slows down when it is hot and always tries to find the coolest area to sleep. If I lived in an area where it was hot I would probably do a puppy cut.


I don't know of ANY dog, long hair or short, who actually LIKES really hot weather. A puppy cut or full coat is a decision for the owner's convenience,not the dog's. What is important to avoid is REALLY short hair, where there is no loft for insulation, and especially if it's short enough (like a shave) where the skin is exposed to the sun. But the average puppy cut won't hurt (or help) with the heat. Just make sure the dog has access to shade and fresh water at all times, and, if possible air movement.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

DebW said:


> I've always wondered what scientific evidence that conjecture is based on. I doubt any of us would want to wear a fur coat to 'insolate' from the heat.


Well, us wearing a fur coat (attached to a skin) is NOTHING like a dog's coat, especially a Havanese coat. A better analogy would be between a person wearing light weight, baggy clothing as opposed to being naked and bald. In THAT comparison, light weight clothing would definitely give you more protection unless you were sure you could stay out of the sun pretty much all the time.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dee Dee said:


> My thinking is like Debs.
> 
> I just asked this question myself not long ago and I still don't understand how a long coat could make them cooler. I have read the reasons on google but wonder if anyone actually has done any real research on it or if it's theory. Just like I was told from show people here that Havanese can see fine through their hair...which makes no sense either, they can see through it like you or I can but not nearly as well as if it were trimmed away from the eyes completely. (I did my own little test with a tennis ball, threw it for Sophie before her bang trim and she would always take off at a different angle than the ball and listen for where it hit the ground, then turn and run that way. Then I did another video after her trim and she could track the ball directly every time). So I just wonder about the long coat idea being better in the heat, I know hair is a little different but people who have really thick hair are going to be hotter than people with really short hair. That is why animals shed in the summer, shorter coat keeps them cooler. I just can't imagine Havanese coat being so different than other animals it would make such a big difference for them in the heat.
> 
> ...


Well, first, I think there is as big a difference between what people call "puppy cuts" as there are differences in the amount of hair different Havanese have. I can't believe that those with a very heavy double coat are going to be as cool as those with a lighter weight, silky coat, no matter what the length. Likewise, I don't think that a puppy cut the length of Sophie's or Pixel's is going to interfere with the coats ability to protect the skin at all. But I see LOTS of Havanese that are supposedly in "puppy cuts, where the head and tail are left long(ish) and the body is cut down like the short part of a Poodle. THAT, IMO, gives the dog no insulation, and no protection from the sun.

As far as the facial hair is concerned, like you, I've SEEN the difference it makes to the dog's sight when their hair is in their eyes. Kodi has slammed into weave pole entries with his hair loose, when I believed the instructor's, "Oh, he can see fine!" I've also seen the difference on retrieves, even when his hair has come loose from his topknot so is partially obstructing his vision.

I think that anyone who wants their Havanese to do anything more strenuous than the conformation ring and as a lap dog, owes it to the dog to EITHER keep their hair up out of their eyes with a pony, or cut bangs so they can see. Either of those options work well... one is more work than the other. The owner has to decide, just like between a full coat and a REASONABLE puppy cut.

IMO, the ONLY reason a Havanese should be shaved close is if the owner has allowed the coat to get matted. Then, it's only fair to the dog to get rid of the mats and start fresh. But until the dog has developed some reasonable skin covering, you've got to be mighty careful of the sun.


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## whimsy (Apr 3, 2010)

Whimsy has always had a long coat ( year round) She enjoys laying in the sun on the deck, but will move to the shade when she gets warm. When it's really really hot outside we both are more comfortable inside in the air conditioning.


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## Teddy's Human (Sep 24, 2015)

krandall said:


> Well, first, I think there is as big a difference between what people call "puppy cuts" as there are differences in the amount of hair different Havanese have. I can't believe that those with a very heavy double coat are going to be as cool as those with a lighter weight, silky coat, no matter what the length. Likewise, I don't think that a puppy cut the length of Sophie's or Pixel's is going to interfere with the coats ability to protect the skin at all. But I see LOTES of Havanese that are supposedly in "puppy cuts, where the head and tail are left long(ish) and the body is cut down like the short part of a Poodle. THAT, IMO, gives the dog no insulation, and no protection from the sun.
> 
> As far as the facial hair is concerned, like you, I've SEEN the difference it makes to the dog's sight when their hair is in their eyes. Kodi has slammed into weave pole entries with his hair loose, when I believed the instructor's, "Oh, he can see fine!" I've also seen the difference on retrieves, even when his hair has come loose from his topknot so is partially obstructing his vision.
> 
> ...


Hi Krandall, thanks for your responses! I agree on distinguishing between the types of "puppy cuts." I usually do no shorter than 3/4 inch over the body when I do a puppy cut - I didn't get a dog with silky hair just to get rid of it 

I think Teddy is going to get a puppy cut this weekend - thanks everybody for your input! Sometimes you just need some help making these decisions :grin2:


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## Teddy's Human (Sep 24, 2015)

Dee Dee said:


> My thinking is like Debs.
> 
> I just asked this question myself not long ago and I still don't understand how a long coat could make them cooler. I have read the reasons on google but wonder if anyone actually has done any real research on it or if it's theory. Just like I was told from show people here that Havanese can see fine through their hair...which makes no sense either, they can see through it like you or I can but not nearly as well as if it were trimmed away from the eyes completely. (I did my own little test with a tennis ball, threw it for Sophie before her bang trim and she would always take off at a different angle than the ball and listen for where it hit the ground, then turn and run that way. Then I did another video after her trim and she could track the ball directly every time). So I just wonder about the long coat idea being better in the heat, I know hair is a little different but people who have really thick hair are going to be hotter than people with really short hair. That is why animals shed in the summer, shorter coat keeps them cooler. I just can't imagine Havanese coat being so different than other animals it would make such a big difference for them in the heat.
> 
> ...


Totally agree on the eye hair Dee Dee! I've watched Teddy search for a toy I've thrown for him, when its literally right next to him when his eye hair is too long. This doesn't happen when his bangs/visor are shorter!


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## Teddy's Human (Sep 24, 2015)

whimsy said:


> Whimsy has always had a long coat ( year round) She enjoys laying in the sun on the deck, but will move to the shade when she gets warm. When it's really really hot outside we both are! more comfortable inside in the air conditioning.


I'm with you! But sometimes in the high heat of the summer (high 90's to 100's) I can barely get him to go more than 100 ft outside to do his business! Maybe his paws are just too hot on the pavement? Shrug, but like you, we're both more comfortable inside:grin2:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Teddy's Human said:


> I'm with you! But sometimes in the high heat of the summer (high 90's to 100's) I can barely get him to go more than 100 ft outside to do his business! Maybe his paws are just too hot on the pavement? Shrug, but like you, we're both more comfortable inside:grin2:


Yes, no dog should be out on pavement in temperatures that high. They can seriously burn their paw pads. That has nothing to do with coat length.


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## Teddy's Human (Sep 24, 2015)

krandall said:


> Yes, no dog should be out on pavement in temperatures that high. They can seriously burn their paw pads. That has nothing to do with coat length.


Thanks Krandall. Yes, I don't think the paw pads being hot on the pavement has anything to do with coat length. I do however let the hair between his pads grow out a little more in the summer to act as a buffer between his paw pads and the pavement - would you have any concerns there? I don't let the hair get super long or anything, only partially covering the pads. Here in Texas, there isn't always a way to avoid those temps!

Thanks for your input, I appreciate it!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I don't ever (purposely  ) leave long hair on my dog's feet, because they need them for traction.

You can avoid hot pavement problems by planning walks for early in the day, or in the evening. For quick potty runs, they won't hurt themselves running quickly across the pavement to get onto the grass. (or dirt) If you ned to go farther to get them off pavement, we have the advantage that our dogs are small. You can either carry them, or pop them in a stroller.


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

In addition to what Karen said, I really don't think a bit of hair covering the pad will protect the pad from hot pavement. It would take quite a bit of hair to actually protect, and at that point, the dog would have almost no traction. Also, keep in mind that if paw hair is left long, it can may between the pads and be pretty painful.

On the topic of full coat vs puppy cut: Mario was in a full coat his entire first summer and had no problem heat wise. Think of it as more of a barrier than a heavy fur coat. I could go into the science behind the insulation situation, but I'm typing this via my phone, so I'm trying to keep it short. That being said, we keep his hair in a puppy cut of about 2-3 inches (like the picture of him as my avatar); it's easy to manage and protects him from the sun. Believe it or not, summers get incredibly hot here


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

TO CLIP OR NOT TO CLIP: A Summertime Conversation 




As the summer heats up, so does the conversation among groomers about the pros and cons of clipping down double-coated dogs. 




Summer is the season for clip downs, or is it? There are many groomers hold the position that pet owners are asking for shave downs, and we have the tools and skills to do the job. We should do it. If one groomer refuses, another will accept the client and take home the money. Many groomers agree with pet owners that removing a thick coat is the humane response. On the other hand, a growing number of groomers are reluctant to shave some coats and will attempt to educate the client and redirect them to a less radical solution to the heat problem. 




Function of the canine coat. Together the skin and coat of all mammals form the largest sensory organ. Hair is an appendage of the skin; it is not a separate system. The main purpose of dog hair is to regulate body temperature; it holds in body heat in the winter and dissipates heat from the sun in the summer. 1,2 The coat also provides protection from environmental elements and the sun.3 The canine coat features a compound hair follicle where there are several or many secondary (undercoat) hairs and a single primary (topcoat) hair. The longer the hair, the more it can dissipate the heat away from the skin. Light colored hair reflects heat, while dark colored hair absorbs and holds heat. Black, short-haired dogs are the most uncomfortable in the heat and long, light-haired animals will be the most comfortable.2 Profuse or thick undercoat, however, will trap heat next to the skin, regardless of color. 




It is a common mistake by humans to assume that dogs experience their coats the same as we would experience their coats. Humans have eccrine sweat glands over most of the body that serve thermoregulation. Dogs do not. Dogs pant, humans sweat. When dogs pant on a hot day, it does not mean that they need to have their entire hair coat removed. Here’s how one science writer puts it: “In the case of man, the removal of clothing during hot weather increases the ability to lose heat by evaporation of moisture. The dog does not have this ability and therefore his insulation is a protection to him during hot weather. If the animal loses his insulation during very hot weather, by having his coat clipped for instance, he runs the risk of not being able to maintain his body temperature. His skin temperature loss probably is not only inefficient but, since he does not perspire, he will probably increase the temperature of his skin and his body temperature as well


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## Marbel (May 20, 2014)

I like the convenience of a puppy cut - I will let Chloe grow to a certain length that's manageable. But I prefer puppy cut.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

You always post great articles Dave. 

I do understand the reasoning behind the coated dogs being able to dissipate heat away from the body as this says, I just have not seen proof if it. (at least not more so than a clipped or short coated dog) I've been asking all the havanese people I know that have had a lot of havanese over the years (show people, so some in show coat, some older retired ones clipped) and the answers I'm getting are some say the clipped dogs seem a little cooler and some say their coated dogs seem a little cooler. But they can't say for sure in most cases. 

I've never heard (personally) of coated dogs having more heat stroke, etc or vice versa. So I suspect if there is a difference between the coats and heat, it's fairly negligible and you aren't going to see a huge difference in how well your dog can handle the heat either way. 

I still do agree that a super short cut would be bad. But I also think that there are benefits for a puppy cut in the heat, such as a breeze isn't going to get to the skin of the dog nearly as easily in a full coat than it would in a puppy clip. Or when I spritz with water, it won't get to the skin as easily, or her cool coat would be insulated from her body with a full coat, etc. I can say that since her clip, Sophie has not panted in the car nearly as much as she used to. But that could be due to her maturing and getting used to riding in the car since she also sleeps much more in her crate now while traveling so previous panting may have been due to stress. Won't blame that on the longer coat. But I think the bottom line is coated or not they are going to get hot and we have to take the same precautions. If there was a huge and obvious difference between how coated dogs handle heat vs clipped I'd keep her coat long but the benefits of the clip (tons less grooming, not having to make her go through being brushed for a couple hours a day, having to cut mats out a lot) outweigh the little bit of any protection from the heat a full coat would give.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> TO CLIP OR NOT TO CLIP: A Summertime Conversation
> 
> As the summer heats up, so does the conversation among groomers about the pros and cons of clipping down double-coated dogs.


Although this article is really talking about TRUE double coated breeds, like Huskies and German Shepherds. While our dogs do have an undercoat, there is not the strong differentiation that the true double coated dogs have, with a harsh, waterproof outer coat, and a warm, shorter, dense, undercoat. Our dogs coats, are more or less the same length, and their outer coat has none of the weather protective qualities of a true double coated breed.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Havanese have a long double coat for a reason. That's the bottom line.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

all kinds of double coated dogs The Modern Bark | Dog Training Tips: Fluffy Dog Breeds | The Double Coated Dog Breed List - Puff Daddies of The Dog World


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## Teddy's Human (Sep 24, 2015)

KarMar said:


> In addition to what Karen said, I really don't think a bit of hair covering the pad will protect the pad from hot pavement. It would take quite a bit of hair to actually protect, and at that point, the dog would have almost no traction. Also, keep in mind that if paw hair is left long, it can may between the pads and be pretty painful.
> 
> On the topic of full coat vs puppy cut: Mario was in a full coat his entire first summer and had no problem heat wise. Think of it as more of a barrier than a heavy fur coat. I could go into the science behind the insulation situation, but I'm typing this via my phone, so I'm trying to keep it short. That being said, we keep his hair in a puppy cut of about 2-3 inches (like the picture of him as my avatar); it's easy to manage and protects him from the sun. Believe it or not, summers get incredibly hot here


Good point on the paw pad hair - I've never let it get that long, but I didn't realize it could be painful. So thanks for pointing that out!

So I'm curious if the consensus is that 2-3 inches of coat is enough to get the insulation benefits while still being easier to maintain?


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## NickieTwo (Jun 17, 2013)

Our summer days are almost all over 100 and all our dogs have been fine in full coats. Nickie the havanese and our heavily double coated sheltie do fine. Previous dogs were Siberian huskies, a collie, and an Australian shepherd. They also were fine and lived long happy lives.


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## w8in (Feb 11, 2016)

Wow! One day I will read every post! Hank is 15 months old and I have decided to keep his top knot (on top his head) tail and ears long other than that , this summer he will have a puppy cut! Almost shaved next time! 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## MarinaGirl (Mar 25, 2012)

I don't trim Emmie's feet and she doesn't have traction issues.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Teddy's Human said:


> Good point on the paw pad hair - I've never let it get that long, but I didn't realize it could be painful. So thanks for pointing that out!
> 
> So I'm curious if the consensus is that 2-3 inches of coat is enough to get the insulation benefits while still being easier to maintain?


It can be more than painful... It can actually burn through layers of pad.

I can't really comment on coat length. It SOUNDS like enough. I think Pixel's is about 3", and her's is definitely easy to maintain, and she still looks really cute.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

w8in said:


> Wow! One day I will read every post! Hank is 15 months old and I have decided to keep his top knot (on top his head) tail and ears long other than that , this summer he will have a puppy cut! Almost shaved next time!
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


Almost shaved is what you DON'T want to do. That gives the dog no insulation and no protection from the sun. It's not doing the dog any favors.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

MarinaGirl said:


> I don't trim Emmie's feet and she doesn't have traction issues.


You are lucky then. All performance people will tell you they are very careful about maintenance of hair on the bottom of their dog's feet, no matter what the breed. And as someone else said, (KarMar, maybe?) on Havanese, it's really easy for seeds, sticks or other matter from the ground to get caught in long hair between the pads, leading to tough-to-remove and very painful mats.


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## w8in (Feb 11, 2016)

krandall said:


> Almost shaved is what you DON'T want to do. That gives the dog no insulation and no protection from the sun. It's not doing the dog any favors.


Thanks for the input! I didn't think about the sun!

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Chi-Chi's Mom (Dec 10, 2015)

w8in said:


> Wow! One day I will read every post! Hank is 15 months old and I have decided to keep his top knot (on top his head) tail and ears long other than that , this summer he will have a puppy cut! Almost shaved next time!
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


I'd love to see a pic of Hank when he gets his new cut. I am still on the fence about coat length and looking for comparisons.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

I'd love to see a picture of Hank when he gets his cut too!


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

MarinaGirl said:


> I don't trim Emmie's feet and she doesn't have traction issues.


Just some food for thought: we never trimmed Mario's fur between his pads, despite the recommendations of our breeder, groomers, and books. We never saw a noticeable traction issue. Once he started training heavily and we did agility fun matches, we started to trim his paw pad fur (which is much easier and speedy that you would think). The difference was night and day. He was more confident running and jumping, didn't hesitate when chasing toys across our wood floor, and he walked more easily as he didn't pick up painful debris. We thought his behavior was normal before because we had never seen any different. Never even thought he might be having traction issues.

It only takes about 10 minutes every other week to do both of ours, so there's no harm done in doing it even if you don't see a difference.


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## AbrilsMama (Jun 24, 2014)

I call Abril my hot girl. She is a curly hair Hav with a really thick coat so she gets puppy cut, nice and short in warm weather...a longer puppy cut in winter. She loves to go into the bathroom and lay on the tile floor when warm...


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

AbrilsMama said:


> I call Abril my hot girl. She is a curly hair Hav with a really thick coat so she gets puppy cut, nice and short in warm weather...a longer puppy cut in winter. She loves to go into the bathroom and lay on the tile floor when warm...


Yeah, it's really hard to even try to maintain that type of coat without a puppy cut. Then you don't have much of a choice! She's a cutie!


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## Teddy's Human (Sep 24, 2015)

davetgabby said:


> TO CLIP OR NOT TO CLIP: A Summertime Conversation
> 
> Function of the canine coat. Together the skin and coat of all mammals form the largest sensory organ. Hair is an appendage of the skin; it is not a separate system. The main purpose of dog hair is to regulate body temperature; it holds in body heat in the winter and dissipates heat from the sun in the summer. 1,2 The coat also provides protection from environmental elements and the sun.3 The canine coat features a compound hair follicle where there are several or many secondary (undercoat) hairs and a single primary (topcoat) hair. The longer the hair, the more it can dissipate the heat away from the skin. Light colored hair reflects heat, while dark colored hair absorbs and holds heat. Black, short-haired dogs are the most uncomfortable in the heat and long, light-haired animals will be the most comfortable.2 Profuse or thick undercoat, however, will trap heat next to the skin, regardless of color.


Hi Dave, thank you for sharing this - it helps to understand how hair plays a role in body temp regulation.

Is the fact that Havanese have an undercoat mean that heat will be trapped next to the skin regardless of hair length, or is that not applicable here because the Havenese undercoat is just as fine & silky as the overcoat?

I have read that the Hav coat developed over time to shield the dogs from the Caribbean sun, and to help with the heat. I wonder if the reason their undercoat is so fine and silky is primarily for sun protection, leaving the overall coat (undercoat & top coat combined) much lighter than a traditional double coated breed for the heat aspect?


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## Teddy's Human (Sep 24, 2015)

Dee Dee said:


> You always post great articles Dave.
> 
> I do understand the reasoning behind the coated dogs being able to dissipate heat away from the body as this says, I just have not seen proof if it. (at least not more so than a clipped or short coated dog) I've been asking all the havanese people I know that have had a lot of havanese over the years (show people, so some in show coat, some older retired ones clipped) and the answers I'm getting are some say the clipped dogs seem a little cooler and some say their coated dogs seem a little cooler. But they can't say for sure in most cases.
> 
> ...


Thank you Dee Dee! This is exactly what I was looking for when I started the thread! Regardless of the science of coat length I wanted to know what everyone's EXPERIENCE was with their dogs.

Thanks to all for raising the point about keeping them at least long enough to adequately protect their skin from the sun. Do we think that 1inch of coat length is enough to protect from the sun?


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## Teddy's Human (Sep 24, 2015)

Well, I took the plunge to the puppy cut. Below is a before/after. (the before pic is actually from a month ago, so his hair was longer than the before pictured but it was the best that showed his "before" coat that I could find!) Body is 1 inch in length, and looks to be adequately protected from the sun since I cannot see any skin through his coat. Thoughts on this?

Also, I will say - he does seem cooler. We are staying with my parents for a few days, and they don't keep the a/c as low as I do so at night, Teddy usually hops off the bed and goes to lay on the tile in the bathroom floor. He hasn't been doing that the past two nights, and he stays sitting in my lap longer - I've long suspected he gets up because he gets hot. Just thought I'd share for what that's worth. 

Hope everypawdy is having a great weekend!!


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

He is so so so cute with either cut! I love his color he is a stunning boy. I love his eyes in the after pic!!
Sophie's first cut (which is still growing out) started about the length of Teddy's before cut, maybe a little shorter. Right now she's is probably a little longer but she does have pretty curly hair so it might appear shorter. I too have the perception that Sophie is cooler with her trim. I know the havanese coat likely developed to help with the elements but I also think that like most of our breeds, we tend to go to the extreme and the really long coat they have now is probably somewhat manmade. Most of our havanese in full coat would never make it on the streets of Cuba they'd be matted to the skin.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dee Dee said:


> He is so so so cute with either cut! I love his color he is a stunning boy. I love his eyes in the after pic!!
> Sophie's first cut (which is still growing out) started about the length of Teddy's before cut, maybe a little shorter. Right now she's is probably a little longer but she does have pretty curly hair so it might appear shorter. I too have the perception that Sophie is cooler with her trim. I know the havanese coat likely developed to help with the elements but I also think that like most of our breeds, we tend to go to the extreme and the really long coat they have now is probably somewhat manmade. Most of our havanese in full coat would never make it on the streets of Cuba they'd be matted to the skin.


Havanese were never Cuban street dogs, though. They were lap dogs to the aristocracy, and have their roots (along with all the "small white dog" breeds) among the aristocracy of Europe, later used in circuses, because they were so smart, then spread to other parts of the world by trade ships. Bichon Frise developed into its final form in the Canary Islands, Coton de Tulear in Madagascar, Maltese in Malta and the Havanese in Cuba.

All of them have had their roots as pampered house pets. Interestingly, however, even in early paintings of Havanese (or at least purported to be Havanese, they are often shown trimmed in some way. (interestingly, often as Lowchens are trimmed today)

1. Dog of the Havana Breed, by Jean Jacques Bachelier, 1768
2. Havanese Bichon havanais Bichon habanero
3. Havanese Bichon havanais Bichon habanero
4. Another one I found, supposed to be a "Bichon Havanais"


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## Teddy's Human (Sep 24, 2015)

Dee Dee said:


> He is so so so cute with either cut! I love his color he is a stunning boy. I love his eyes in the after pic!!
> Sophie's first cut (which is still growing out) started about the length of Teddy's before cut, maybe a little shorter. Right now she's is probably a little longer but she does have pretty curly hair so it might appear shorter. I too have the perception that Sophie is cooler with her trim. I know the havanese coat likely developed to help with the elements but I also think that like most of our breeds, we tend to go to the extreme and the really long coat they have now is probably somewhat manmade. Most of our havanese in full coat would never make it on the streets of Cuba they'd be matted to the skin.


Thank you Dee Dee, I wasn't expecting to be this much of a pushover as an owner, but those eyes and that face always get me 

And yes, as I've thought about their roots I've often thought about how their coat would do on its own and why/how it came to be that way because just as you say, they would never make it!


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## Teddy's Human (Sep 24, 2015)

krandall said:


> Havanese were never Cuban street dogs, though. They were lap dogs to the aristocracy, and have their roots (along with all the "small white dog" breeds) among the aristocracy of Europe, later used in circuses, because they were so smart, then spread to other parts of the world by trade ships. Bichon Frise developed into its final form in the Canary Islands, Coton de Tulear in Madagascar, Maltese in Malta and the Havanese in Cuba.
> 
> All of them have had their roots as pampered house pets. Interestingly, however, even in early paintings of Havanese (or at least purported to be Havanese, they are often shown trimmed in some way. (interestingly, often as Lowchens are trimmed today)
> 
> ...


I love these pictures! Thanks for sharing Krandall! I suppose this is the answer to my wondering how or why they developed such long coats in Cuba - they never developed any need to not have these coats since they were (rightfully!!) always pampered pooches  I always knew they were dogs belonging primarily to the Cuban aristocratic families, but never thought about the implication that potentially had on the evolution of their coats.

Have a wonderful weekend!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Teddy's Human said:


> I love these pictures! Thanks for sharing Krandall! I suppose this is the answer to my wondering how or why they developed such long coats in Cuba - they never developed any need to not have these coats since they were (rightfully!!) always pampered pooches  I always knew they were dogs belonging primarily to the Cuban aristocratic families, but never thought about the implication that potentially had on the evolution of their coats.
> 
> Have a wonderful weekend!


Yeah, I think human tastes and selective breeding had a LOT more to do with this than evolution.

If you look at village dogs anywhere in the world, they are invariably the same "model"... medium sized (30-40 lbs) short haired, TYPICALLY upright ears, though you see a few lop eared ones, TYPICALLY moderate tail carriage, though you see a few with curled tails, "normal dog" snouts, without exaggeration in either direction, and all different colors. Interestingly, the only one of the "deformities" that humans have breed into dogs that I've pretty regularly seen crop up among village dogs is dwarfism. I've seen this in South and Central America, S.E. Asia and India.

You never see brachycephalic dogs, long haired dogs, (though there are some with "furnishings", which we know is on a different genetic locus from long hair) tiny dogs or giant dogs. Neither do you see dogs with over-accentuated jaws, like Pit Bulls.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

> Havanese were never Cuban street dogs, though. They were lap dogs to the aristocracy, and have their roots (along with all the "small white dog" breeds) among the aristocracy of Europe, later used in circuses, because they were so smart, then spread to other parts of the world by trade ships. Bichon Frise developed into its final form in the Canary Islands, Coton de Tulear in Madagascar, Maltese in Malta and the Havanese in Cuba.
> 
> All of them have had their roots as pampered house pets. Interestingly, however, even in early paintings of Havanese (or at least purported to be Havanese, they are often shown trimmed in some way. (interestingly, often as Lowchens are trimmed today)
> 
> ...


Right, I meant that left alone, nature makes changes to benefit the animal, but nature doesn't realize the havanese is not a street dog, and would never have given a wild animal a coat like our havanese have, to ward off the heat because they would have a hard time surviving with a coat like that on their own. Not saying they were ever wild or in the street or on their own, but the havanese coat (among lots of other breeds) is largely man made. So I still question how much a long coat would really help keep them cool. We were told all these years that yearly vaccinations were crucial to keep our dogs healthy, until Dr Dodd's researched it and now we find that those yearly vaccinations likely do them harm.

I am guessing no one has really done any "scientific" research on the havanese coat and how well it protects from heat when full vs trimmed, and we are going by theory. It could be true that the coat helps but I don't know of any proof that exists at this time and from what I see in Sophie and the people I asked (as I mentioned mostly show people that have and have had both long and short coats) have said about 50-50 that they "think" their full coated dogs handle heat better, and the other half say they think the trimmed coats do. So at best it doesn't sound like keeping them long vs short will make a significant difference.

Neither here nor there really!  I just find it an interesting topic.


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## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

> Yeah, I think human tastes and selective breeding had a LOT more to do with this than evolution.
> 
> If you look at village dogs anywhere in the world, they are invariably the same "model"... medium sized (30-40 lbs) short haired, TYPICALLY upright ears, though you see a few lop eared ones, TYPICALLY moderate tail carriage, though you see a few with curled tails, "normal dog" snouts, without exaggeration in either direction, and all different colors. Interestingly, the only one of the "deformities" that humans have breed into dogs that I've pretty regularly seen crop up among village dogs is dwarfism. I've seen this in South and Central America, S.E. Asia and India.
> 
> You never see brachycephalic dogs, long haired dogs, (though there are some with "furnishings", which we know is on a different genetic locus from long hair) tiny dogs or giant dogs. Neither do you see dogs with over-accentuated jaws, like Pit Bulls.


Ha didn't see this post from you before I posted above you are saying the same thing. 
Interesting that all dogs share 99.5% DNA. So only 0.5% of DNA is responsible for the huge differences in the dog breeds.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dee Dee said:


> Ha didn't see this post from you before I posted above you are saying the same thing.
> Interesting that all dogs share 99.5% DNA. So only 0.5% of DNA is responsible for the huge differences in the dog breeds.


Well, considering how much dna we have in common with frogs (or any vertebrate) it's astounding how many differences there are!


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## trueblue (Jan 22, 2008)

I always cut my pups down this time of year. Not only does it get miserably hot in south Louisiana, but we also have all kinds of grass seeds and hitchhikers that they pick up in their coats. It's so much easier to maintain when they're a little shorter.


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## Nicm (Feb 28, 2014)

I love Teddy's cut I'm so having this cut of both of my girls!!!

Nic Darla & Heidi


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## Annabellam (Nov 2, 2015)

All i know is that dogs that are likely to suffer from sun burns are white dogs, hairless dogs and dogs with light coloured fur. Caring for them includes applying sunscreen for protection from the strong sun's rays.


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