# Shama has kidney disease



## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Our trusted vet noticed a "pink flag" when Shama had blood work done before her December teeth cleaning. We went back for a follow-up visit on March 9, and we got the results today. We will be getting a referral to the U of MN or Blue Pearl in Eden Prairie (KarMar, I suppose you may have an opinion on those two options ...) for further information, but for now we know the following: Shama has been drinking more water than the average dog her size - two and a half times the expected amount - because her kidneys aren't working optimally. We will need to switch her to a diet designed for kidney care. (The vet recommended Royal Canine, but we haven't done our research yet to decide.) The hardest thing, it seems to me, will be that I'll need to switch her training treats to those very low in protein. I'm hoping to be able to figure out what treats are high value (i.e., motivating for our little treat-driven girl) even while significantly lower in protein than those she's used to.

What's great is that we know about Shama's kidney disease very early. She is not yet five years old, and the vet said people often don't realize their dog has kidney problems until the dog is 10 years old. So we're hopeful that changing her diet now will greatly improve her quality of life in the long-term.

I know you care about Shama, so I wanted you to be aware of this new development in her life. If you have inspiring stories to share, that would be great. We're not interested in hearing sad stories, however!

Thanks for your positive vibes. We'll keep you posted.


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## Cassandra (Dec 29, 2015)

Sending you those positive vibes. It is great you caught it so early. She is so lucky to have you watching out for her. Diet changes can make an important difference for many issues. You never know when something crazy like this will pop up out of the blue but early intervention works for humans on so many things, same is true for our dogs and cats.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Sorry for the news. Depending on the type of kidney disease.., a reduction in protein is not always recommended. Here is one article https://www.hemopet.org/diets-dogs-health-conditions/ I would definitely talk to an expert as this . is new to a number of vets still.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/health/a-low-protein-kidney-diet-is-not-always-the-answer/


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

https://www.championpetfoods.com/wp...tfoods/res/research/Myths_of_High_Protein.pdf


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

I am so sorry to hear about Shama! I wish you the best in finding the proper diet for her. If it is any comfort to you, one of my previous cats had kidney disease and lived to be 17 years old and seemed quite happy.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I was also going to suggest checking with your vet and looking into the details regarding protein. Of course it may be different with dogs, but I learned from DS that they often label “low protein” and “low phosphorous” as blanket dietary restrictions because it’s easy for people to remember and follow, but the there are exceptions, and some are better than others. If you’re able to identify those details then it might open up your options as far as treats! 

Does she like blueberries and strawberries? Those are good for human kidney diets! 

Hope she’s feeling well


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

I am so sorry to hear that my favorite forum girl, Shama, is facing these health issues. It is great that you caught it so early though. My last dog was a Bichon that had to be on prescription food very early on in her life. It did what it was supposed to do and she lived a long and happy life. I don’t know if Shama is picky about treats but the company that makes the food may also have treats that go along with their prescription diets (I know Hills did). I also used to make treats by opening a can of prescription food and taking it out in one piece. I would cut it in slices, and then into smaller treat size pieces. You can then bake them in a low temperature oven to bake them into hard treats. Good luck to you as you navigate this new health journey with your sweet girl. Molly and I send all our love and positive vibes to you and Shama. ❤


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## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

Sending positive vibs to you and pretty Shama.:hug:


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

davetgabby - All of the articles you shared are outstanding. Thank you very much for sharing these. I hope everyone reads them, even those who currently have dogs without kidney disease.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

With regard to my cat who had kidney disease, he absolutely refused to eat the prescription diet kidney food. Therefore, I was forced to resort to regular food. He still lived to be 17 years old after being diagnosed at age 10. I was not aware of any other options at the time and you cannot force feed an animal. My current cat eats raw since kibble is a recipe for disaster for a cat and asking for kidney disease IMO. I know cats are not dogs, but feeding a food without any moisture content does not seem like a good idea even for dogs.


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## Ltartof (Sep 17, 2018)

We had a dog with kidney disease, as well as other things.. we learned that he liked almost anything that I made up, so he had lots of teeny teeny bits of apple etc. Also cooked carrots- for some reason he did not like raw ones so I always had a steamed batch. Not too many. Some dogs like popcorn, you make it yourself with no salt or butter. he also liked things better if I ate them too...! 
Good luck, with diet, a good vet and monitoring, she should be fine. I am not sure they miss things like great treats as much as we think, they like our praise and love the most.


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

Annie, I am so so sorry. Let me know if I can help out in any way. While life may become a bit less flavorful, literally, for Shama, I know she is resilient and will make the transition no problem. Issues caught so early on tend to be so much easier to manage, so that bit IS good news.

Blue Pearl can be phenomenal, but in my experience it is very hit or miss with them. The U has my vote; they are who we at IGH send most of our specialty cases to, and they are consistently great. Best of luck!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

ShamaMama - My understanding is that the kidneys filter out toxins. Did the vet suggest anything to lessen the burden on the kidneys like avoiding flea/tick preventatives, heartworm meds and vaccines?


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Well, shoot, Annie. I hope this turns out to be easy to manage for you and your vets. Hugs to Shama.


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## PNWAlan (Oct 9, 2018)

So sorry to hear that our girl is going through this. We have no experience to share so Skye and I can only send our love and best wishes your way.


.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

I am so hear that beautiful Shama has a health issue. I also am so glad you caught it so early. Positive vibes most definitely coming your way.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Oh, I'm so sorry you are facing worrisome health issues with Shama. I don't know ANYTHING about kidney disease in dogs. But I will echo what others have said... I've had two cats with rather serious kidney disease, and on lived to 15 1/2 and the other to 17 and a few months. So neither was really a "spring chicken" when they left us, and both lead full and happy lives till the end.


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## BoosDad (Mar 8, 2020)

I am sorry to hear about Shama. I went through the same thing with my toy poodle, who was treated at Blue Pearl in Irvine, California. I was very happy with the care he received at Blue Pearl. He just passed at the age of 17. My boy would not eat Royal Canin or Hill's Prescription but he loved JustFoodForDogs. They have a moderate and low protein kidney diet and will make special formulas.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

I'm sorry to hear this news. Because your a wonderful Mom it was caught early. Sending positive thoughts to your sweet girl.


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## [email protected] (Jun 10, 2019)

Experience with Kidney Disease

I am so sorry to hear that Shama has kidney disease. My Sofi got kidney disease from being poisoned by a nasty neighbor. She was 4. I had her on prescription Hills KD diet and Enalapril pills. She lived 4 years when the doctor gave her a couple months. She had good quality of life until the very end.

I wish you all the best. It sounds like you caught it in the early stages. I have known people who owned dogs who lived as long as 8 years after being diagnosed with kidney disease. I understand it is hard to predict the course of the disease.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Thanks for all your kind words, forum friends! I am planning to start my kidney diet research next week when I'll be on Spring Break. I'll keep you posted. (Shama's behavior hasn't changed at all. She doesn't seem to know that her clever vet figured out her health secret ...)


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

AHHHHHHHHH! Hate to hear your baby has anything wrong. Sounds like it might be just a little bump in the road and things will be ALRIGHT with a change in diet. :bump: Thanks for sharing and I'll keep checking on you two.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

My main concern is whether Shama will work for treats that are low in protein (and yes, I still need to ascertain whether she actually does need a low protein diet), but I just did an exercise from my Loose Leash Walkers Anonymous class (Fenzi Dog Sports Academy) called Treat Bowling with little bits of fresh mandarin oranges, and she liked them! I did read that I shouldn't give her too many at a time ... Any low protein treat recommendations besides fresh fruits and vegetables? (Not grapes/raisins, I know ...)


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## Queenie Nainaar (Mar 9, 2020)

Sending her prayer, love and kisses.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ShamaMama said:


> My main concern is whether Shama will work for treats that are low in protein (and yes, I still need to ascertain whether she actually does need a low protein diet), but I just did an exercise from my Loose Leash Walkers Anonymous class (Fenzi Dog Sports Academy) called Treat Bowling with little bits of fresh mandarin oranges, and she liked them! I did read that I shouldn't give her too many at a time ... Any low protein treat recommendations besides fresh fruits and vegetables? (Not grapes/raisins, I know ...)


My dogs don't care for them, but many of the people I train with use mini marshmellows that they let get a little stale first. Their dogs seem to love them. My dogs really like Charlee Bears if they aren't offered too often, but used in a treat rotation, and they are just about crackers! Kodi also loves dried blueberries,which are easier to carry around than the fresh ones.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Oh! And I forgot about Goldfish crackers!!!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Mine LOVES mini marshmallows! 

We also discovered accidentally that he’s completely obsessed with vanilla flavor, but we haven’t figured out how to use that information since vanilla extract is dangerous. DS had a Madagascar double vanilla cupcake and he got into the wrapper. He went completely crazy. I let him have it because I didn’t know it could be a problem until later that night. Then a couple of weeks later DS got the same thing at the same bakery. We were all ignoring Sundance, he was sitting right next to him, the closest he’s ever gotten to begging. He seriously barked. We were all shocked!

I know now isn’t the best time to check with the vet if you don’t have to, so it’s helpful to have alternatives. In humans the biggest issues is what the protein is packaged in, and sometimes red meat. I would be really surprised if you can’t give her fresh, unseasoned chicken that you cook yourself.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

That's very interesting, EvaE. The chicken you just described is exactly what I've been using for agility training. DH did some reading and found a suggestion that it is less the protein but the phosphorus that is the problem and that the way to avoid the phosphorus is to avoid high phosphorus foods and only feed high quality protein like cooked egg whites. I need to pursue this more, and I also still need to read the article Dave provided at the top of this thread. Today is the day that I'm beginning my research. I'll keep you all posted.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

This is from the first article that Dave posted in this thread. Dr. Dodds is really anti-kibble for dogs with kidney issues ...

Kidney Disease

Animals with kidney disease or kidney dysfunction should not eat lower protein diets, as this commonly held belief is misleading. As long as the protein source in their diet is of high quality such as white fish and eggs and easily digestible, it helps kidney function and overall body nutrition. It is the lower quality, poorly digestible protein diets (soy, wheat gluten, even corn gluten meal) that tax the kidneys, making them work harder in filtering and clearing metabolic waste products, water, and certain chemicals and drugs from the body.

Let’s also remember the primary function of the kidneys: to help flush the body of toxins via the urine. So, it makes sense not to additionally tax the kidneys with a diet low in moisture content such as kibble. Therefore, I suggest raw, canned, homecooked or dehydrated foods for them.

W. Jean Dodds, DVM
Hemopet / NutriScan
11561 Salinaz Avenue
Garden Grove, CA 92843


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

This is from akc.org:

Dog food myth No. 3: “High-protein diets cause kidney failure.”

The idea that excess protein causes kidney failure arises from the fact that high levels of protein have historically been ill-advised for dogs with kidney failure. Failing kidneys allow urea, a byproduct of protein metabolism, to build up in the blood, making the dog feel sick. That’s why the blood urea nitrogen (BUN) is used as one index of kidney function. Decreasing dietary protein can decrease the BUN. But if the protein level is too low, the body simply draws on its own protein source, its muscles, causing more harm.

In fact, there’s a huge debate about whether restricted protein is the way to go for dogs with kidney disease, with studies disagreeing about whether it helps kidney patients live longer. Researchers do agree that protein sources with high biological value produce fewer waste products and are better choices. Egg protein has the highest biological value, followed by milk, meats, soybean, and grains.

But what about protein levels for dogs with normal kidney function? The idea got out that you could preserve kidney health by not taxing them with too much protein. There’s very little support for this precaution, however. We can start by looking at situations in humans where people eat a high-protein diet. Bodybuilders, for example, have a very high-protein diet but a recent study showed they have no protein-related kidney problems.

Even historically, members of the Lewis and Clark expedition reportedly ate a diet of mostly buffalo meat each day with no ill effects. More than 1,600 women followed for 11 years had no significant differences in glomerular filtration rate (GFR), a measure of kidney function, related to protein intake. In rats receiving a diet of 50 percent protein, no anatomical changes were noted in the kidneys compared to rats on a 14 percent protein diet.

There’s still disagreement about the ideal level of protein, but the bottom line is, feed a moderate level of high-quality protein, and your dog will likely be just fine.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> We also discovered accidentally that he's completely obsessed with vanilla flavor, but we haven't figured out how to use that information since vanilla extract is dangerous.


I didn't know this about vanilla extract being dangerous. Is it the alcohol in it?


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Below is a small part of the article that Dave posted in post #4 of this thread. I'm starting to feel overwhelmed. I don't understand why my vet wouldn't be that the low-protein prescription has been disproven. I'm really thinking we need our follow-up appointment at the University of Minnesota ASAP ...

“Those recommendations are based on a myth,” says Wendy Volhard, author of Holistic Guide for a Healthy Dog. “In fact, the whole theory of low-protein diets for dogs with kidney disease was blown apart in 1975 by David Kronfeld, PhD, who was at the time a veterinary researcher at the University of Pennsylvania. His concept was not to feed less protein but rather to feed higher-quality protein.

“The low-protein myth is like an old-wive’s tale, something based on ignorance that just won’t die. Yes, inferior-quality protein can harm a dog’s kidneys, but the solution isn’t to continue with inferior-quality ingredients and feed less of them. The solution is to improve the quality of ingredients and in that way provide what the dog needs for good health.”

Studies disproving the prevalent low-protein prescription have been widely published in veterinary journals and textbooks. But it is moving into the mainstream very slowly.

“Most vets who did not graduate from college in the last few years (and some of those as well) are still unaware of or dismiss the newer studies that show low-protein diets neither slow the progression of kidney disease nor prolong life,” says Mary Straus, a lifetime dog lover from the San Francisco Bay area who researches health and nutrition issues.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

ShamaMama - Is it possible to seek out the help of a dog nutritionist who is experienced in developing diets for dogs with various health conditions? Many vets are lacking in nutritional knowledge.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

That's a good idea, MPM. I think I may hold off until I take her to the specialists at the University of Minnesota since we still don't know the exact nature of her kidney issue. All we know is that her numbers are off.

Here's an excerpt from the article Dave put in post #5 of this thread.

The notion that high protein feeding to dogs may be harmful was even adopted by the National Research Council (NRC) of the National Academy of Sciences in 1972.24It was stated that high protein found in some commercial diets increases the workload of the liver and kidney and contributes to renal disease in dogs. There is no evidence to support this view, and the recommendation has been dropped. In contrast, there is evidence that high protein diets enhance renal function in normal dogs. This has led to confusion among veterinarians who have been told for decades that low protein diets may be beneficial for kidney function and therefore high protein diets may be deleterious to normal dogs.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

ShamaMama said:


> This is from akc.org:
> 
> Dog food myth No. 3: "High-protein diets cause kidney failure."
> 
> ...


Many very healthy populations ate mainly meat...for example, the Eskimos and the Comanches. Many people today are following a carnivore diet and it is helping to cure lots of chronic conditions they have been suffering with for years. I am not suggesting this diet but there are tons of success stories on the web on this which are hard to ignore...many of them from ex vegans.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Molly120213 said:


> I am so sorry to hear that my favorite forum girl, Shama, is facing these health issues. It is great that you caught it so early though. My last dog was a Bichon that had to be on prescription food very early on in her life. It did what it was supposed to do and she lived a long and happy life. I don't know if Shama is picky about treats but the company that makes the food may also have treats that go along with their prescription diets (I know Hills did). I also used to make treats by opening a can of prescription food and taking it out in one piece. I would cut it in slices, and then into smaller treat size pieces. You can then bake them in a low temperature oven to bake them into hard treats. Good luck to you as you navigate this new health journey with your sweet girl. Molly and I send all our love and positive vibes to you and Shama. ❤


 Thanks for this, Diane! I'm fascinated that the Hills website doesn't say anything about low protein. It lists "high quality protein" among its ingredients ...


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

KarMar said:


> Blue Pearl can be phenomenal, but in my experience it is very hit or miss with them. The U has my vote; they are who we at IGH send most of our specialty cases to, and they are consistently great. Best of luck!


 What renal diet food recommendations does IGH make?


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

mudpuppymama said:


> ShamaMama - My understanding is that the kidneys filter out toxins. Did the vet suggest anything to lessen the burden on the kidneys like avoiding flea/tick preventatives, heartworm meds and vaccines?


 No, she didn't, but I expect I'll get more info from the specialists at the U of MN ...


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

BoosDad said:


> I am sorry to hear about Shama. I went through the same thing with my toy poodle, who was treated at Blue Pearl in Irvine, California. I was very happy with the care he received at Blue Pearl. He just passed at the age of 17. My boy would not eat Royal Canin or Hill's Prescription but he loved JustFoodForDogs. They have a moderate and low protein kidney diet and will make special formulas.


Interesting that they have both moderate and low protein options and that they require a doctor's prescription. Will investigate further. Thank you so much for your post!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Honestly, there is a ton of confusion about this with humans, which is why I suspected there might be more to it with dogs, too. When DS was on dialysis, people asked him all of the time about his “low protein diet,” including doctors. His nephrology team including a nutritionist, stressed over and over that he needed protein, he should not be on a low protein diet, and that phosphorus was to be avoided. It’s often much higher in packaged/processed meat. It just doesn’t make sense to me that since dogs naturally require more protein than humans, a dog with kidney issues should eat a low protein diet and a human shouldn’t. That doesn’t mean I know what I’m talking about, but when I read the articles Dave posted last week, they made a lot of sense to me. It also makes sense that high quality protein is the answer, because when we eliminated packaged deli meats and other proteins high in phosphorus, it naturally left us eating higher quality meat as a family. 

Regardless, it’s kind of a fun adventure to seek out new treats! When you get more information from the specialist, you’ll have some options to mix in with whatever they recommend. 

What a great idea to consult with a nutritionist!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ShamaMama said:


> This is from the first article that Dave posted in this thread. Dr. Dodds is really anti-kibble for dogs with kidney issues ...
> 
> Kidney Disease
> 
> ...


If that is the case, maybe what you need to do is make your own treats useing the pyramid pan (or dot pan) trays, using food items she likes that you know are good for her! Tapioca flour should be Ok as the base, I would think, and that makes them pliable, soft, and non-crumbly, no matter what "good stuff"you mix in.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Mama, have you talked to Shama's Vet about the possibility of phenol poisoning causing the kidney disease? Any product ending with "sol" like Lysol, Pinesol. etc. has phenols (carbolic acid) as a primary ingredient. It is toxic to dogs whether ingested or even breathing the fumes in sufficient quantity. This toxicity could result in kidney disease. In our casa, Momi regularly uses Lysol as a cleaning disinfectant, and even more so during this virus pandemic. We are VERY careful using it around Ricky. He is only allowed in a room where it has been used after it has been well ventilated and aired out. It is NEVER used at a level or surface where he could lick it.

Obviously, I don't know what I am talking about. It is just a thought. It is best to discuss with Shama's Vet if you think this might be of validity and concern to you.

Ricky sends besos to Shama.
Popi sends cuddles to Shama.

Ricky's Popi


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Thanks, Popi! Your post made me smile because I am so bad at cleaning that I can't remember the last time a product ending in "sol" was used in our house! I'm taking a new urine sample to our vet today as she said the U of MN would need the latest numbers anyway, and this sample was taken after withholding water from 7 PM last night to 7 AM this morning. So we'll see what results we get this time, and we'll see when we can get her to the U of MN (they are not currently making appointments except for emergencies, of course ...) For now, I'm not planning to invest in the low protein Royal Canin that is sold at our vet's office. Still need to do more research and have her seen at the U. Shama sends her love back to all of you. I send Ricky a session of wild running and jumping and kissing along with some dried banana chips!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> I didn't know this about vanilla extract being dangerous. Is it the alcohol in it?


Yes, I think this is what I read. But, it's confusing because I didn't find any contextual information. For instance, in a recipe for human cookies, the amount of vanilla is tiny and spread over the entire batch, and the alcohol content is cooked off. I'm not planning on letting him drink vanilla! But I can't find information to know if I can use something like vanilla bean in some kind of homemade treat.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Yes, I think this is what I read. But, it's confusing because I didn't find any contextual information. For instance, in a recipe for human cookies, the amount of vanilla is tiny and spread over the entire batch, and the alcohol content is cooked off. I'm not planning on letting him drink vanilla! But I can't find information to know if I can use something like vanilla bean in some kind of homemade treat.


I did a fairly extensive search on vanilla, and EVERYTHING I found pointed to the alcohol (or possibly xylitol which is even worse, of course!) found in conjunction with vanilla being the culprit, not the vanilla bean itself.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Mama, have you talked to Shama's Vet about the possibility of phenol poisoning causing the kidney disease? Any product ending with "sol" like Lysol, Pinesol. etc. has phenols (carbolic acid) as a primary ingredient. It is toxic to dogs whether ingested or even breathing the fumes in sufficient quantity. This toxicity could result in kidney disease. I
> 
> Ricky's Popi


Wow, thanks for posting this information as I didn't know about the "sol" products. I do use Pinesol at sometimes and I've never been careful about the fumes. Can it also cause problems in human kidneys?


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> Wow, thanks for posting this information as I didn't know about the "sol" products. I do use Pinesol at sometimes and I've never been careful about the fumes. Can it also cause problems in human kidneys?


Please don't over-react Jackie. In most cases, when used as directed in homes, it is not toxic to either dogs or humans. Just be sure you have plenty of ventilation. Open a window to get cross ventilation and let it air out for 15 minutes or so, until you can't smell the fumes. When using it in the kitchen, we turn on the range/microwave exhaust blower and when using it in the bathroom, we close the doors and turn on the exhaust fan. And don't use it in an area where Willow might lick it. You should be fine.

Ricky's Popi


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> Wow, thanks for posting this information as I didn't know about the "sol" products. I do use Pinesol at sometimes and I've never been careful about the fumes. Can it also cause problems in human kidneys?


If you ever want a toxicity analysis on a product, the EWG is a great source of information. Here is what it says about PineSol. They also have a great Skin Deep database on personal care products.

https://www.ewg.org/guides/cleaners/2852-PineSolAllPurposeCleanerOriginal/

The only cleaners I use are vinegar, baking soda and Dr. Bronners soap. I haven't found anything these will not clean.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

mudpuppymama said:


> The only cleaners I use are vinegar, baking soda and Dr. Bronners soap. I haven't found anything these will not clean.


Good information, MPM. Do you have any information about the efficacy of vinegar as a disinfectant for C-19 virus? Thanks.

Ricky's Popi


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Good information, MPM. Do you have any information about the efficacy of vinegar as a disinfectant for C-19 virus? Thanks.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


Great question. From my understanding (take with grain of salt please), the C-19 virus has some sort of lipid covering so soap and water is most effective because enough scrubbing with soap and water will dissolve that fat layer. I have heard that vinegar is not as effective. This is what I have heard from some people that appear to know what they are talking about (which doesn't mean they do). Anyway, I think enough scrubbing with soap and water should take care of the virus C-19. I would think vinegar is good for bacteria vs viruses.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Good information, MPM. Do you have any information about the efficacy of vinegar as a disinfectant for C-19 virus? Thanks.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


This link has some info on how to disinfect for C-19 and there is a link to another page with some disinfectants that work on viruses.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/prevention.html


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

My neighbors are chemists. Actually, the husband is a chemical engineer and his wife is the chemist. She was going to check on white vinegar for me to see how well it works on Covid19. I go through jugs of white vinegar. I went out to my storage area to bring in by backup jug and I forgot to by one! Grrrrrr! Can't believe I did that. I don't intend to leave my home for the next month so now I have to be a little frugal with what I have left. I do have cider vinegar that I can use in a pinch.

If I hear from my chemist friend about how well vinegar works, I'll post what she says.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Just a quick update to say that we decided to transition to Hills Prescription k/d while awaiting our appointment with the specialist at the U of MN. It arrived in the mail on Wednesday, and, to our delight, Shama was VERY INTERESTED in the bag. DH gave her her first taste Thursday night, and she's been gobbling it down ever since. So far, he's only giving her 20 percent new kibble and 80 percent the only other kibble she's ever had in her life, Now Fresh, which our breeder said we had to feed her, consulting her if we ever wished to change! We'll gradually reverse the ratio. She also gets canned Wellness venison or lamb as well as canned pumpkin at every meal (resulting in an unpleasant orange beard and hair on top of her head if she's not wearing a clip ... whatever!) We are still considering enlisting the help of the nutritionist DaveTGabby recommended, but we just wanted to make a change while waiting for our U of MN appointment (which hasn't been scheduled yet).

One day, I'm planning to get caught up on my forum reading, including the Covid-19 thread which is now up to 340 posts! I also have to post the video of Shama going berserk trying to get at a little bird that had flown into our sliding glass door and was lying just beyond Shama's reach. (The bird eventually flew away.)


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Because the U of MN Veterinary Medical Center was backed up due to COVID, we weren't able to take Shama there until Thursday, August 13. That day, the doctor agreed with our regular vet by saying that he suspected Chronic Kidney Disease. He recommended we follow up by bringing her back for an abdominal ultrasound.

We took Shama to the U for an abdominal ultrasound on Wednesday, August 26. The ultrasound confirmed stage 2 of Chronic Kidney Disease. Both of her kidneys are small (probably since birth), and they have irregular edges either due to incomplete development or deterioration. In the ultrasound, they showed up white, indicating deterioration. Of course, this is disappointing news, but we're happy that we caught it this early (she is only five years old) so we can restrict her diet to her Hill's Prescription k/d and so that we can continue to monitor the progression of her disease through regular check-ups. She may not get to the average Havanese lifespan of 13-15 years old, but we'll try to keep her with us as long as we can!

She also has slightly high blood pressure, so we're going to put her on a very low dose of blood pressure medication and then monitor. (Hard to say if the blood pressure is actually high or just due to stress of being at the U of M VMC ...) Here's something I learned. I wanted to get a second opinion about the blood pressure, but it's not common for veterinary practices to have the equipment needed to measure canine blood pressure. Our vet doesn't have it, for example! Another area vet, who does have it, still isn't taking new patients due to COVID. A third area vet gave us an appointment for September 30. (We're going to delay starting the blood pressure medicine until September 16 so that we can see the vet two weeks after starting to give the medicine.)

The other good news is that Shama doesn't show any signs of her Chronic Kidney Disease at home. She drinks an unusual amount of water, but she has always drunk a lot of water. She isn't turning into a finicky eater; she's eating her kidney diet food with gusto. The U doctor said she can continue to engage in all of her regular activity. This fall, we're talking three classes at my friend's new training facility 10 miles away: Family Dog Manners II, Intermediate Tricks, and Pre-Advanced Agility. (My big fear was that she'd stop trying since I can now only give her the kidney diet food as treats, but, to my surprise, she still performs. I think maybe she just likes being with me!)

Just wanted to give you an update on Shama's health. No sad stories, please!

Here is an August 23 video of Shama playing with a new friend, a Pyrenean Shepherd puppy named Challah. (Please advise if the video doesn't work.)


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## cinquecento (Apr 23, 2020)

*Sorry to hear this*

I am so sorry to hear this. How fortunate you caught it early, but it is always a worry and stressful when you hear less than optimal news about your baby! Keep us all posted on how she is doing, what food you choose, and what you learn at your appointments. Post more Shama pictures! She's a beauty!

Edited: I just read your most recent post. Sounds like overall a good appointment with some good information and a plan as you move forward. I'm so glad! What a relief that she has accepted the food change, she is showing no signs of illness, and she can continue her activities! You are so fortunate to have so many training options! Those classes sound like so much fun. I don't know of anything like that in our area! The photo and video of Shama and her new friend is so cute!


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Thanks, Deidre.

Her food is Hill's Prescription k/d. So far we only have the kibble, but we've ordered the soft food. One of the doctors at the U said we would be able to bake the soft food to make another type of training treat.

He also directed me to the website of the International Renal Interest Society to read more about diet (and training treats). Here's one sentence from a section called, "What pet owners should know about kidney function and the diagnosis and management of chronic kidney disease in dogs and cats" ...

"In one study of cats with chronic kidney disease, those eating a commercial kidney diet survived up to twice as long as those eating a regular diet."


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

ShamaMama, so sorry to hear about Shama’s condition but it is wonderful you caught it early and she has a great mom who is giving her the best care possible. I had two cats with kidney disease who lived to be 17 and 18 and had a great quality of life pretty much until the end. They were finicky and refused to eat the prescription food so I just fed them regular food and they still lived to 17 and 18. I am not sure what would have happened if they had eaten the prescription food but 17 and 18 is very good! My husband’s grandmother had very high blood pressure and lived to be 103!!! And my husbands parents both have very high cholesterol, do not take statin drugs and are healthy mid 80 year olds. Anyway, sometimes it is easy to get scared these days with all these diagnostic tests. Statistics and numbers are a good guide but IMO they don’t always tell the whole story. I wish you and Shama the very best in dealing with this issue.


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## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

Thanks for the update on my little sweetie pie. My last dog was on Hills Prescription diet g/d food for many years after her bladder stone surgery. I used to make her treats from the canned food. If you take the top off the can you can pop the whole thing out in one piece. Then you can slice it and cut the slices into appropriate size pieces for treats. You then bake them in the oven at a low temperature. Hills also sells prescription treats that can be given to dogs on their prescription diets. Have faith that the special food will do what it is supposed to do and that Miss Shama will not let anything hold her back. Knowledge is power and it is good to know what you are dealing with. This way she can get all the care she needs to thrive and live her best life!!! ❤


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

I'm sorry to hear about her condition, but very glad you caught it early, as others have said. Kidney disease is tough, but I hope staying on the diet and monitoring is enough to keep it in check. What has the vet said about water consumption? My first husband had renal failure (ended up on dialysis and dying on the kidney waiting list) but he had to limit his fluid intake because he would retain water because his kidneys didn't filter out fluids well enough, and he'd retain water around his heart, etc. Just wondering if this was an issue with dogs. Anyway, it sounds like she's in good shape now if the special diet is enough. She's so lucky to have you as a mama!


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## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

ShamaMama said:


> Our trusted vet noticed a "pink flag" when Shama had blood work done before her December teeth cleaning. We went back for a follow-up visit on March 9, and we got the results today. We will be getting a referral to the U of MN or Blue Pearl in Eden Prairie (KarMar, I suppose you may have an opinion on those two options ...) for further information, but for now we know the following: Shama has been drinking more water than the average dog her size - two and a half times the expected amount - because her kidneys aren't working optimally. We will need to switch her to a diet designed for kidney care. (The vet recommended Royal Canine, but we haven't done our research yet to decide.) The hardest thing, it seems to me, will be that I'll need to switch her training treats to those very low in protein. I'm hoping to be able to figure out what treats are high value (i.e., motivating for our little treat-driven girl) even while significantly lower in protein than those she's used to.
> 
> What's great is that we know about Shama's kidney disease very early. She is not yet five years old, and the vet said people often don't realize their dog has kidney problems until the dog is 10 years old. So we're hopeful that changing her diet now will greatly improve her quality of life in the long-term.
> 
> ...


I am so sorry to hear about Shama. I hope that diet will help control the issue,


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Melissa Woods said:


> I'm sorry to hear about her condition, but very glad you caught it early, as others have said. Kidney disease is tough, but I hope staying on the diet and monitoring is enough to keep it in check. What has the vet said about water consumption? My first husband had renal failure (ended up on dialysis and dying on the kidney waiting list) but he had to limit his fluid intake because he would retain water because his kidneys didn't filter out fluids well enough, and he'd retain water around his heart, etc. Just wondering if this was an issue with dogs. Anyway, it sounds like she's in good shape now if the special diet is enough. She's so lucky to have you as a mama!


I don't know if it's the same in dogs, but in humans it depends on what the kidneys are doing, like you described. I think it's more common to restrict fluid on dialysis, because nurses asked us about it all of the time, but in earlier stages the goal is often to flush the kidneys. Prior to his transplant, DS dumped fluid so he was never restricted, even on dialysis. His weight had to be monitored daily, though, in case of retention. He is in renal failure now and has a fluid requirement of 3L a day. It does make me wonder, though, at what point do they monitor heart function? Are they linked in dogs like they are in humans?

Did your husband have trouble with managing potassium? The potassium restriction is awful. DS has all kinds of eating issues already, it's hard enough to get him to eat. I can see why the prescription diet would be helpful, because so many proteins are high, and balancing all of that would be hard. it's great there are good options for training treats.

Is there a way to do blood pressure checks at home? It must be hard if the equipment is that difficult to come by.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I mean phosphorus. I do that constantly, even with a chart right on the fridge. Potassium is for IV fluid. I think. I can’t keep it straight anymore, maybe I had it right the first time.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I mean phosphorus. I do that constantly, even with a chart right on the fridge. Potassium is for IV fluid. I think. I can't keep it straight anymore, maybe I had it right the first time.


He did. He eventually died of a heart attack and sepsis but it wasn't actually phosphorus related. His issues were caused by a severe type of diabetes. It affected all his organs. And he couldn't get the transplant really because the diabetes affected his immune system.

I'm sorry you're dealing with renal failure. It's awful


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

Though his numbers were always too high. His whole body would paralyze.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Melissa Woods said:


> He did. He eventually died of a heart attack and sepsis but it wasn't actually phosphorus related. His issues were caused by a severe type of diabetes. It affected all his organs. And he couldn't get the transplant really because the diabetes affected his immune system.
> 
> I'm sorry you're dealing with renal failure. It's awful


Not being able to eat what you want, when you don't feel like eating most of the time anyway, seems like a small thing but it's hard. I imagine the dietary restrictions were even harder combined with diabetes.

We are fortunate that pediatric renal care is nothing like adult dialysis and treatment. It's a mess because DS is so complicated, but even our worst days are better than a lot of adults dealing with renal failure. I've heard it's been getting better in recent years, though.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

I’m SO GLAD pediatric care is better. They tried but on long term dialysis he was in constant pain. A lot was because of the fluid around his heart so he couldn’t breathE at night. I’d wake up to find him sitting up.

The dietary restrictions have got to be worse with a child. Of course with diabetes a lot of the things they wanted you to eat completely changed. it was a mess


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## stephsu (Apr 27, 2020)

I'm so sorry to hear that. Sending love your way.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Darn! Sorry to hear about Shama but glad to hear the long-term prognosis seems good.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ShamaMama said:


> Because the U of MN Veterinary Medical Center was backed up due to COVID, we weren't able to take Shama there until Thursday, August 13. That day, the doctor agreed with our regular vet by saying that he suspected Chronic Kidney Disease. He recommended we follow up by bringing her back for an abdominal ultrasound.
> 
> We took Shama to the U for an abdominal ultrasound on Wednesday, August 26. The ultrasound confirmed stage 2 of Chronic Kidney Disease. Both of her kidneys are small (probably since birth), and they have irregular edges either due to incomplete development or deterioration. In the ultrasound, they showed up white, indicating deterioration. Of course, this is disappointing news, but we're happy that we caught it this early (she is only five years old) so we can restrict her diet to her Hill's Prescription k/d and so that we can continue to monitor the progression of her disease through regular check-ups. She may not get to the average Havanese lifespan of 13-15 years old, but we'll try to keep her with us as long as we can!
> 
> ...


I am glad to hear that you have more information on what's going on, even if it wasn't what you hoped. Shama and her friend are, of course, adorable!!!

I wouldn't be OVERLY concerned about her bloodpressure, just based on what I know about my own. When I have my BP taken at my local PC's office, it is always low. When I have my blood oressure taken when I go into the big Boston hospital where I go each month, it is usually high. Not alarmingly high, but MUCH higher than may usually lower than average BP. They just shrug their shoulders and say that they see it all the time when people have just driven into the city. They take my BP again after my infusion, so about 90 minutes agter I arrive, and it is back down closer to what I think of as my "normal". I can't believe that dogs don't have an increase in their BP also when they are under even minimal stress.

Now.. On to stories, but but not a sad one! The cat I had when Dave and I got married developed kidney disease quite young. They didn't even HAVE commercial kidney diets then, so I had to make all her food from scratch. She didn't really like it, (Cats are SO much pickier than dogs!!!) so I was always fiddling with the recipe, giving her more than the recommended meat in the recipe, because I figured I'd rather have her suffer from kidney disease than die of starvation! LOL.

Every year we would take her in for her check up. Every year the vet would shake his head and cluck over her tiny, rock-hard kidneys. Yes, she drank a lot and peed a lot. But her bloodwork was actually OK. But she looked great and clearly felt fine. She chased squirrels up the trees every day.

Our most recent cat also had kidney didease, and she WOULD have died of starvation if we had insisted on her eating it. She was already 13 when diagnosed, and after she lost 2 lbs from refusing to eat an adequate amount of KD, (she was only an 8lb cat to start with, so this was a MASSIVE weight loss) I just let her eat what she wanted. The vet agreed. She regained her lost weight, and was MUCH happier! She had a BUNCH of other health problems too, so the kidney thing wasn't the only problem, and SHE lived to 15 also!

She lived to 15! So don't count Shama out any time soon. <3


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## Ditto's Mom (Apr 29, 2007)

Sharma and Challah are so cute together, love the video. Havs are pretty resilient and Sharma has a long life ahead. Positive vibs sent your way.:smile2:


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> I am glad to hear that you have more information on what's going on, even if it wasn't what you hoped. Shama and her friend are, of course, adorable!!!
> 
> I wouldn't be OVERLY concerned about her bloodpressure, just based on what I know about my own. When I have my BP taken at my local PC's office, it is always low. When I have my blood oressure taken when I go into the big Boston hospital where I go each month, it is usually high. Not alarmingly high, but MUCH higher than may usually lower than average BP. They just shrug their shoulders and say that they see it all the time when people have just driven into the city. They take my BP again after my infusion, so about 90 minutes agter I arrive, and it is back down closer to what I think of as my "normal". I can't believe that dogs don't have an increase in their BP also when they are under even minimal stress.
> 
> ...


Cats can be so picky!!! And I actually think they will starve themself. They can have health problems if they miss too many meals. Mine would not touch the kidney food and started losing weight. Finally I gave in and fed them what they would eat rather than see them waste away!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I was just wondering how blood pressure machines work for dogs, and why the equipment is hard to come by. I know that a human blood pressure monitor wouldn’t be really accurate, but if it’s the difference between medication or not, could it get close? It seems like Shama is so well trained, even if they aren’t exact, you could get an average of more accurate readings at home.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Cats can be so picky!!! And I actually think they will starve themself. They can have health problems if they miss too many meals. Mine would not touch the kidney food and started losing weight. Finally I gave in and fed them what they would eat rather than see them waste away!


Based on Snowbelle, I DEFINITELY rhink that at least a sick one can and will starve itself to death.. Yeah, they are COMPLETELY different creatures than dogs! LOL!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> Based on Snowbelle, I DEFINITELY rhink that at least a sick one can and will starve itself to death.. Yeah, they are COMPLETELY different creatures than dogs! LOL!


If anyone here thinks they have a picky dog...just get a cat!!!!!


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

Annie, let me know if you ever need me to pull some strings at IGHAH to have Shama seen. We are also booking routine stuff weeks out, but since she was seen there once, she wouldn't technically be a new patient and would get a little more special accommodation 

Glad to hear she is trucking along well. Health news is always scary, and I'm proud of you for handling it with your chin up. You are so good to your girl (and she to you)!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> If anyone here thinks they have a picky dog...just get a cat!!!!!


LOL!


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## Faithb (Aug 18, 2020)

Each day we get to spend with our family, friends, and fur babies is a blessing!


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

So sorry to hear about Shama but so glad you caught it so early. I am sure with what you are doing that you can can control her disease. So glad you have a wonderful vet! Please continue to give us updates from time to time.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I was just wondering how blood pressure machines work for dogs, and why the equipment is hard to come by. I know that a human blood pressure monitor wouldn't be really accurate, but if it's the difference between medication or not, could it get close? It seems like Shama is so well trained, even if they aren't exact, you could get an average of more accurate readings at home.


I wonder that too.

I don't imagine a human blood pressure cuff could squeeze tightly enough to get the blood pressure from one of her tiny legs!


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Thank-you for updating us on our girl Shama. You found her the best of care early which will make all the difference. Very cute video of Shama and Challah. 😊


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

Darn I wish I had seen this a dozen hours ago! I'm not certain why I didn't do a search until late this afternoon. I've been researching every kidney diet imaginable. I'm glad Shama is doing so well! JoJo started that a few weeks ago and has had less and less of an appetite. This with a dog who use to get one bite at a time so he wouldn't gag. He was also the reason I equipped the house with baby locks! I've been told repeatedly that his appetite is fading because he is so advanced. He's gone from 11 pounds to 9.5 so tonight I threw caution to the wind and gave him white rice and boiled chicken thighs. His appetite is voracious! He got more rice with a little of my plain scrambled eggs-whoosh, a disappearing act even a magician would envy. Sooo, I powdered the Hills and put a little in the rice and eggs, he refused so I assumed he was full. Wrong again.
Tomorrow I'm going to have our vet order JustFoodForDogs kidney formula. However, even when JoJo was eating Wellness for seniors he had a fair amount of energy. Especially considering all his issues! There is no question that JoJo has at fairly advanced kidney disease so I'm not comfortable pursuing a raw diet. Although I'm still in a deep dive on raw for the other two. JoJo's time is limited so Ed and I want to keep him as happy and comfortable as possible. 
I sure hope Shama is still liking her Hill's, this is stressful. I didn't realize she needed a kidney diet. Although everything you posted I've read repeatedly from a dozen sources that I trust. Always check the forum first Tereeeeesa! This is a great place to be. Shama's new friend is adorable but probably a little larger by now😋
If you've read this far thank you! I'm uncharacteristically emotional right now and this is my go to place.


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## BoosDad (Mar 8, 2020)

JaJa said:


> Darn I wish I had seen this a dozen hours ago! I'm not certain why I didn't do a search until late this afternoon. I've been researching every kidney diet imaginable. I'm glad Shama is doing so well! JoJo started that a few weeks ago and has had less and less of an appetite. This with a dog who use to get one bite at a time so he wouldn't gag. He was also the reason I equipped the house with baby locks! I've been told repeatedly that his appetite is fading because he is so advanced. He's gone from 11 pounds to 9.5 so tonight I threw caution to the wind and gave him white rice and boiled chicken thighs. His appetite is voracious! He got more rice with a little of my plain scrambled eggs-whoosh, a disappearing act even a magician would envy. Sooo, I powdered the Hills and put a little in the rice and eggs, he refused so I assumed he was full. Wrong again.
> Tomorrow I'm going to have our vet order JustFoodForDogs kidney formula. However, even when JoJo was eating Wellness for seniors he had a fair amount of energy. Especially considering all his issues! There is no question that JoJo has at fairly advanced kidney disease so I'm not comfortable pursuing a raw diet. Although I'm still in a deep dive on raw for the other two. JoJo's time is limited so Ed and I want to keep him as happy and comfortable as possible.
> I sure hope Shama is still liking her Hill's, this is stressful. I didn't realize she needed a kidney diet. Although everything you posted I've read repeatedly from a dozen sources that I trust. Always check the forum first Tereeeeesa! This is a great place to be. Shama's new friend is adorable but probably a little larger by now😋
> If you've read this far thank you! I'm uncharacteristically emotional right now and this is my go to place.


Ja Ja - Previously, I posted about my toy poodle, Oliver (RIP 2/20), who treated for kidney disease for six or seven years. If anything, JustFoodForDogs kidney diet should be very palpable for JoJo, even the low protein one. It uses ground lamb as the protein. It is important to stop the weight loss, as soon as possible. Oliver ate it up until 4-5 days before he crossed rainbow bridge (he declined really rapidly). It's low in phosphorus, which is important for kidney dogs.

Be sure to check the stools for darkening, as that could be an indication of bleeding, which is decreasing appetite. Kidney dogs do get stomach ulcers (but it can be treated with Omeprazole or other meds). I would recommend getting a set of new labs, if they have not been done in the past month. It will give you a much better picture about the progress of the kidney disease. You want to know how the kidney is functioning (IDEXX SDMA test) as well as creatinine, phosphorus, and BUN levels. Red blood cells count also is important to determine, if there is bleeding that is causing anemia. My vet ran the tests in the office, so I did not have to wait for an answer from a lab. Your vet can prescribe a phosphorus binder, if necessary to decrease blood phosphorus levels. Also Calcitriol may help slow the kidney disease. If there are a lot of toxins building up, subcutaneous fluids may help. 

I'm glad you have him on Gabapentin. That probably helps control any kidney-related pain issues. Please message me, if you have any questions. I'm well versed in treating a dog with kidney disease.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Such good information, Boo’s dad!

If he’s having trouble because the kidney diet proteins aren’t as appetizing, maybe you could discuss with your vet ways to reduce phosphorus so you can add a small amount of some kind of fresh protein, or really any food that’s enticing, to the kidney diet. Studies over the past few years have found phosphorus is the real problem, but many proteins are higher in phosphorus. Maybe a small amount of protein that’s lower in phosphorus would be enough to encourage him to eat the rest. Some proteins also have a lower phosphorus content depending on how they’re prepared or packaged. We tried to find alternatives to meats packaged in water because that was a big offender. I know you tried something similar, but maybe it’s just finding the right thing to help him look past the kidney food or more of something that’s safer for him, at least until the new food arrives!

While it’s not ideal, i think you have to navigate a fine line between the danger of not eating and the danger of the wrong diet and it’s not easy. Only you can make that call, with your vet of course, but please know you are supported no matter what.

Jaja, I’m sorry you and Jojo are going through this right now.


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

Thank you guys! I have 32 tabs open and started taking notes to remember everything. I guess I would call it paralegal mode. I saw your post about Oliver and reread it a couple times. Ironically, I'm mostly all over the JustFoodForDogs website right now. The low protein lamb is what I was contemplating. It has less Omega 6 than the other 2 but more of the omega 3. JoJo's is far too thin so I'm glad you mentioned weight. 
JoJo had a blood test on January 21st. The results were RBC 5.07, hematocrit 35.1, hemoglobin 11.4 and MCHC 32.5. platelets 497, creatinine 1.7, BUN 39, chloride 105, amylase 1,482, lipase 325, IDEXX SDMA is 31 and yikes. I was thinking about another blood test after JoJo has been on his new food for a little bit to see if any of the borderline numbers change. The BUN has me concerned and the SDMA for certain. It's hard to tell if he's going to be gone in 2 weeks or several months. Ironically his dementia keeps his mobile, it's always the same pattern but he can go for an hour if he's eaten right before. Jodie is his seeing eye and herding dog which also keeps him moving.
That fine line is precarious right now. I've been thinking and I'll probably be able to sneak in his current food in powdered form if I feed him 4 portions throughout the day until the new food arrives. He should be eating 1 cup a day of Hills but it takes great effort to get towards 1/2 cup a day. You're right on target with the quality protein point EvaE which is a relief when so many people around me still push low to no protein, even our vet. I've tried to focus on phosphorus and omega 6. 
Thank you both, I did giggle when I saw your answers as I was telling Ed during dinner that if anyone responded later tonight it would be Boosdad or Eva 😋It's nice to know other people are night owls as well.


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## BoosDad (Mar 8, 2020)

JaJa said:


> Thank you guys! I have 32 tabs open and started taking notes to remember everything. I guess I would call it paralegal mode. I saw your post about Oliver and reread it a couple times. Ironically, I'm mostly all over the JustFoodForDogs website right now. The low protein lamb is what I was contemplating. It has less Omega 6 than the other 2 but more of the omega 3. JoJo's is far too thin so I'm glad you mentioned weight.
> JoJo had a blood test on January 21st. The results were RBC 5.07, hematocrit 35.1, hemoglobin 11.4 and MCHC 32.5. platelets 497, creatinine 1.7, BUN 39, chloride 105, amylase 1,482, lipase 325, IDEXX SDMA is 31 and yikes. I was thinking about another blood test after JoJo has been on his new food for a little bit to see if any of the borderline numbers change. The BUN has me concerned and the SDMA for certain. It's hard to tell if he's going to be gone in 2 weeks or several months. Ironically his dementia keeps his mobile, it's always the same pattern but he can go for an hour if he's eaten right before. Jodie is his seeing eye and herding dog which also keeps him moving.
> That fine line is precarious right now. I've been thinking and I'll probably be able to sneak in his current food in powdered form if I feed him 4 portions throughout the day until the new food arrives. He should be eating 1 cup a day of Hills but it takes great effort to get towards 1/2 cup a day. You're right on target with the quality protein point EvaE which is a relief when so many people around me still push low to no protein, even our vet. I've tried to focus on phosphorus and omega 6.
> Thank you both, I did giggle when I saw your answers as I was telling Ed during dinner that if anyone responded later tonight it would be Boosdad or Eva 😋It's nice to know other people are night owls as well.


JaJa - So glad to read your post. Based on my experience with Oliver, the labs are not awful. Oliver had very similar labs (i.e., SDMA, creatinine, and BUN) or maybe a little worse for about five or six years. These labs place JoJo in stage 2 kidney disease. Although kidneys cannot recover, appropriate diet and medication can help maintain the kidneys at this stage. Oliver was on the low protein lamb diet. Oliver stayed at stage 2 for a number of years. Hopefully, JoJo will have a similar experience. Hemoglobin and Hematocrit are a little low (anemia or small ulcer?). You might want to ask your vet about those numbers, since they are slightly low. Also be sure to have vet check Phosphorus to make sure it's not high (maybe you have that number already). If phosphorus is high, I would ask for a binder to get the numbers down.

In sum, based on those labs and Oliver's experience, I do not think the kidneys will take him from you any time soon. I would be more concerned, if the creatinine was over 3.0 mg/dl (stage 3 kidney disease). Oliver moved from stage 3 kidney disease to stage 4 in 4-6 weeks. At stage 4, his BUN was over 130 mg/dl and creatinine was 5.3 mg/dl (so JoJo is not anywhere near that stage). However, as you know, a weight loss of over 10% for a small dog is a big deal. I am glad that you have decided, for now, to make sure that JoJo is eating, even if it is not the most ideal diet. I'm sure every vet has a different opinion, however, Oliver's specialist always felt it was more important for him to maintain his weight, even if he did not stick completely to his kidney diet. His last year, I was adding some boiled chicken breast to his lamb dinner to make it more interesting. It did not seem to have any immediate ramifications. As you said, it is a fine balance and you and your vet must decide what is right for JoJo.

I look forward to hearing about JoJo in the future. You have lots of options to keep him comfortable and happy, at this stage. So, try not to worry too much.


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

It is so heart warming to see the support people give one another on this site💕

Our little shih tzu Jess (who was my world when she passed away just over 11 years ago now) also had kidney disease. She lived a happy and enriching life for many years with the condition. When her time came to cross over 🌈bridge I found out a few days later that her sister from the same litter had also passed away that same week! Gemma (her sister) did not have any kidney issues, so it felt like it was simply _their _time to pass on, rather than it being her little kidneys failing Jess.

Your dogs are lucky to have such loving owners to take care of them and manage their condition so well. Xx


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

JaJa so sorry to hear about JoJo. I can definitely understand your concerns about switching to a raw diet at this time.

I am not an expert on feeding raw to a dog with kidney disease but some things definitely have to be done differently to keep the phosphorus levels down. Someone in one of my raw feeding groups fed her Maltese kidney dog a homemade raw diet, but she started her on this at a much younger age than JoJo. The dog lived to be fifteen and had a good life. I recall a few things she talked about. For example, bone is typically a key ingredient in a raw diet but it is very high in phosphorus. She could not feed any bone but fed egg shells instead. Organ meats are also a key ingredient in a raw diet but are very high in phosphorus. She did not feed liver at all but did feed some kidney. I recall her saying that the meat with the lowest level of phosphorus is chicken thighs without skin so she fed that as the protein. I am not sure what else she did or if she used supplements but the key thing is that a raw diet for a kidney dog is very specialized and I feel it really needs the help of someone who knows what they are doing.

I also wanted to say I had two cats with kidney disease that lived to be 17 and 18. I tried the prescription food but they would not touch it. Therefore I just fed them regular canned food. Kibble is a definite bad idea for cats (especially those with kidney disease) so I stuck with canned. They had good quality of life until the end.

Good luck in finding a food that works for you and JoJo.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Shama still doesn't seem to know she has kidney disease. She eats her Hills Prescription K/D kibble, her Hills Prescription K/D soft food, and her canned pumpkin with gusto. When we train (not much lately, I'm afraid ...), we use tiny bits of raw carrot as well as the treats that DH bakes with the Hills Prescription K/D soft food as a main ingredient.

JaJa, please know we are thinking of you and JoJo and the rest of your family! 
💚💛🧡💜💙


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

I forgot to mention his phosphorus is 4.5, right where it should be. On January 22nd the dental vet gave me Cotton's results and then said and "Now I'm sorry, but we need to talk about JoJo." After reanalyzing blood results of all three over the weekend, I began to rethink the kidney issue. The creatinine is elevated .20 which doesn't seem like he's on his way to the rainbow by the end of the week. I've always said the dementia will probably take him down before anything else. I've made an appointment with our regular vet to discuss these issues over the phone. I also sent a message to the makers of JoJo's food to see if the recipe with moderate protein would be a better choice.


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

Oops, I missed your post Annie, I'm so glad Shama is well! JoJo has always been like Shama over the years as he has collected one issue after another. He response seems to be "Oh yeah, I have a seizure disorder? Petellar luxation? Juvenile cataracts? Blindness? Severely reduced hearing? Highly elevated SMDA? Dementia? Wait, what did I say, I forgot 😆 Oh yeah, Bring. It. On!" Our little man is a canine superhero! Thank you everyone, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for our next round of test results, and feedback from our resident kidney shaman (BoosDad) 😋


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## BoosDad (Mar 8, 2020)

JaJa said:


> I forgot to mention his phosphorus is 4.5, right where it should be. On January 22nd the dental vet gave me Cotton's results and then said and "Now I'm sorry, but we need to talk about JoJo." After reanalyzing blood results of all three over the weekend, I began to rethink the kidney issue. The creatinine is elevated .20 which doesn't seem like he's on his way to the rainbow by the end of the week. I've always said the dementia will probably take him down before anything else. I've made an appointment with our regular vet to discuss these issues over the phone. I also sent a message to the makers of JoJo's food to see if the recipe with moderate protein would be a better choice.


Glad to hear that phosphorus is still within normal limits. That is a positive thing. Please keep us informed about JoJo.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

JaJa said:


> "Oh yeah, I have a seizure disorder? Petellar luxation? Juvenile cataracts? Blindness? Severely reduced hearing? Highly elevated SMDA? Dementia? Wait, what did I say, I forgot 😆 Oh yeah, Bring. It. On!"


You are so funny! 

🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂


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## Mando's Mommy (Dec 8, 2020)

I don't have any advice to offer but wanted to send you and JoJo positive thoughts!


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## itsgooby (Dec 2, 2020)

I'm sorry to hear about Shama and JoJo!!! Sending lots of positive (((vibes))) your ways. They are both in loving hands and will live their lives to the fullest, in good health or otherwise


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