# TWO DIFF BREEDS?



## Olliesmom

:jaw: It was suggested to start a different thread about this subject than to keep it where it was as it did not fit the title....let me see if I can start this with references to the other thread...

http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=1000

My question is this...who is this Board of Directors and who is Doc and Diane??


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

Diane Klumb wrote(literally) the book 'the Havanese' & Joanne Baldwin DVM(doc) wrote the medical part. She(they) are considered experts in the area of Havanese. Diane evaluated both my dogs this weekend, by my breeders request. They really are trying (in my opinion) to better the breed by having a Havana Silk variety(Cuban health & standards). You would really have to hear Diane give a lecture on the subject and explain.I could not do her justice.

She stated that they tried to work within the HCA but i think there were a lot of internal issues. They were also very high up on the board at HCA but have resigned so there are no conflict of interests.
Believe me, they know they are not popular with certain breeders etc. but they dont care. They really just want whats best for the breed. I have not noticed any ulterior motives. Anyone correct me please, if i am wrong. The website really explains a lot.
http://havanasilkdog.net/home.html


----------



## DAJsMom

I read the Havana Silk Dog Association article.

So, were all these Az and Costa Rica and Russian dogs all originally Cuban? Is the problem, aside from a standard that kept changing, that these dogs are suspected of not being real original Cuban havanese after all? I assume they were all interbred because there was such a small group of dogs to begin with and they were all believed to be the same breed. I understand the idea of working backward to trace health problems and then trying to eliminate them for the good of the breed, but this dispute over which dogs are actually really the real havana silk dogs isn't going to help the AKC havanese. A good, clear standard that clearly specifies the healthy type would. As would judges that would follow the standard.


----------



## SMARTY

Same post, different thread: My novice interpretation of what I heard was that they have tried to work within the Havanese club, with the new registry all dogs will have to be at least 2 years old to qualify and have all the health certification and meet the original cuban standard. I heard nothing that would make me think Diane and Doc would be the deciding factor as to who gets in. After seeing the Havanese at the hospitality area and in the ring I was say something needs to be done to tighten the standard as to looks. I understand "good breeders' are trying to get the health issue under control, but for some reason it seems not to be working, for the breed as a whole. One thing I did notice was they all have the great Havanese personallity.
__________________


----------



## Olliesmom

Obviously this is confusing to most people - I can tell you how extremely different my boys look - I believe Austin would qualify as silky as his dad is one of Dianes dogs...Ollie is much smaller - curlier hair - smaller in weight but taller in size - and an absolute DOLL! But people can not believe they are the same breed - however Ollie is in a puppy cut...


----------



## ruthann

*Texas A&M study*

Those of us who have Havanese for our beloved pets and not to breed have no problem if our dogs don't posess the Arizona kindred and their 133 separate genes which are predominant when those dogs are bred to dogs who do not carry those genes. The problem is those 133 genes are the genes which carry the diseases which are devistating in our breed. 
The breeders who are breeding dogs who carry these genes are the ones who are the losers in this bad situation. This link was not found until we were into the 21st century. 
I was drawn into this interest because, I have figgured out that Annabelle is at least 75% pure Cuban linage. I am not sure about the other 25% because I need to study the other kennel dogs in her genetics. 
Knowing what I have learned now, I would only buy a dog of the Havanese Silk Dog breeding. 
The American Havanese is so intermixed with the Arizona kindred that it cannot be bred to true standard. 
I am sure there are breeders who can study genes and probably are and can work out our problems. It's the breeders who have to develope the appropriate standard and breed to that standard. My understanding is that the standard is not the original standard and has changed to go along with what is being bred?
I find this a most interesting subject to watch as it developes.


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

Thats right Ruthann, Plus they know they cant do this with ALL Havs but they are just looking to PRESERVE a small group.


----------



## Melissa Miller

So the standard should be addressed within HCA. Perhaps it was difficult because some people have made a lot of enemies. There seems to be two groups, the pro Doc/Diane people and the against Doc/Diane people for various reasons, and they often fight. Im not saying Im either, I just wish it could be resolved within our breed/HCA and not divided. Its kind of sad since we should always be doing whats best for the dogs and not what is best for us.


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

I am not 'pro' anyone but after seeing their presentation & hearing what they had to say, it made sense to me & i appreciate their passion for Havs.
Melissa, maybe try & email them to get a better understanding of what happened. That might explain it better.


----------



## TnTWalter

*OK....so how would a buyer know if they were getting the Havana Silk or Arizona?*

Can we confuse people any more about this breed!!! Geez!!!

Obviously from that website I'd rather have the 'havana silk' if it meant lower maintenance grooming, better health and not larger sized....but it does sound a little 'fishy'....

do you think they're just trying to wipe out the pretty chocolates?

it's all so crazy....

I'm about to run to the shelter and just get a mutt!!:frusty:

Trish


----------



## SMARTY

It would be years and years before the Havanese Silk would be registered with AKC. Years of defining the breed, Years of perfect record keeping, I want to say they have to have 500 direct decendants of the foundation stock, and I cannot remember how may dogs would be in the foundation. All with DNA on file. Up until they are registered with AKC they would remain reg. Havanese.

There will be so many sides to this one I would hate to be in the "Know".
As pointed out at the meeting the cockers have split several times, the corgies and many other breeds. This is not new to AKC.


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

I am really not sure why its so confusing. It clearly states that they are just trying to preserve the 'cuban native dog in its original form'. Thats all. It does not state that they want to to away with ALL other Havs. 

I cant say that i would ONLY get a Havana Silk dog in the future, but i appreciate what they are doing. eace:


----------



## ama0722

wow you go away for a day and I thought Marj may have wrote to another puppy mill producing more mixed breed dogs!

So maybe I am completely confused but could these genetic problems be from the foundation stock being so small to begin with? I don't know genetics at all but wouldn't starting over again with a small stock produce genetic problems all over again? Just some novice thoughts!


----------



## SMARTY

Quite a few breeds have split within AKC, due to size (poodles), color (cockers), tails (corgies), and other reasons etc, etc. This will not effect the Havanese as it is today with the HCA. It will not effect the dogs you own. This will simply be a new breed going back to the original cuban standard. *With the foundation stock being at least 2 years old in the new breed, all health tested, soaped, etc., there is a great chance some of the things that plague the Havanese will be eliminated.*
I looked on this new breed as being a good thing, not taking away from the present Havanese.[/B]


----------



## TnTWalter

*I asked some good breeders and basic opinion is...*

That it might be motivated because they're not winning in the ring....

Thought that was interesting!

Trish


----------



## juliav

While I understand that the HSAA is trying to preserve the original Cuban dog, and get rid of the health issues and bring back the original look of the dog as specified by the Havanese standard (before it was changed in the 80s), I can't help but wonder if going back to a much smaller gene pool will not unleash other health problems?


----------



## irnfit

This is a very tricky situation. Right now, there is a recognized breed named Havanese. It doesn't classify them as being "Cuban" or "Arizona". As far as I am concerned, I have 2 Havanese dogs that are AKC registered.

I can understand Diane and Doc's point of view, especially seeing so many different looking Havs. Just the way all humans don't look alike. Dogs of the same breed will have the same characteristics, but there are subtle differences...snouts may be shorter, tails may be curled more tightly, etc.

I have seen this in so many clubs and organizations. Someone has a hissy fit and they and form another club. This may not be the case in this situation, but it is going to take a very long time to establish the Havana Silk Dog as a breed. Then there will just be another breed to choose from.


----------



## Julie

I have mixed feelings about this.It is true,there is a huge difference in the havanese as a whole.....maybe this would help.Seems like you're gonna have hav breeders upset pretty much either way.From looking over the website,it looks like they certainly have did alot of homework on the issue.It is amazing the differences in some of them in the photos.WOW.Makes you not want an Arz.one...that's for sure.
As far as the foundation stock....the original stock was 8 dogs.....they have 30 foundation dogs now.That's alot more then Goodale started with.:ear:


----------



## havanesebyha

So with all of this out ~ I have a few questions to all the Havanese breeders. If I am thinking of getting a potential show puppy in the future, should I be careful now on which way to go? Say if I had a puppy with all "four" of the different ansestors in its pedigree, would I be barred from showing? This gets very complicated and as I think about pedigrees should I be going toward the Cuban direction or American version of the Havanese? Or is this all personal preference? Or are these going to be road barriers? The people in California already have to worry about AB 1634 and now this too! 

Thank you!

Libby


----------



## Leeann

This subject definitely has a lot of controversy right now.
I feel bad for all the great breeders whom I’m sure are torn in which direction they should go.
I think this is great information for people to know but do not feel the website is informative enough about all the health test that should be done. I’m sure that will change as the club grows.

Unfortunately starting a new line of Havanese will not stop all the backyard / puppy mill breeders it will just give them another name to use. So for me right now when anyone asks me about my boys and where they can get a havanese I will refer them to the HCA website and make sure they check for health tests on the OFA website.


----------



## Julie

Leeann,
do you really think the breeders will be torn?Which direction they should go?I would think they would run as fast as they could away from the Arz.genetics...I know I would.:bolt: 

we all are supposed to have a havana silk.......


----------



## abuelashavanese

Please understand; just because someone formed a new club for a new ”better” breed, does not mean it will ever be recognized by the AKC. They would have to forfeit their association with AKC and the AKC events until such time, if ever, they are declared a rare and separate breed. The AKC guidelines indicate it is not open to "rare" breeds that are a variation of an AKC-registerable breed or the result of a combination of two AKC-recognized breeds. This includes and is not limited to differences such as size (over and under), coat type, coat colors, and coat colors and/or types that are disqualifications from Conformation Events by AKC breed standards. Taking this into account, it would be delusional to think you could prove your bloodline was not a Havanese when it is registered with AKC as a Havanese


----------



## mckennasedona

Wow. A political hot potato. 
I'm not a geneticist but it seems to me that you can do your best to breed away from problems and you may succeed in eliminating one or two but more will crop up. Genetics is a crap shoot and your new litter of puppies could inherit something from great, great, great grandpa Fido despite your best intentions. 
It sounds like some are trying to change the rules in the middle of the game. If there is a recognized standard, shouldn't all breeders strive for that standard rather than re-writing it to fit a specific breeding program?
This will certainly confuse new folks who want to show Havanese or Havana Silk dogs or whatever..... (not to mention confuse the heck out of folks who buy puppies from the breeder who breeds under the kennel name Havana Silk Dogs.

The Arizona conundrum.....bah humbug! I'm from Arizona. It's a nice state! 
I'm going to enjoy my HEALTHY, happy, beautiful Havanese girls and watch whetever unfolds.

Susan


----------



## Leeann

Sorry Julie, I always said I am not the greatest typing what I feel.

I meant torn from which club to be a part of or can they be in more than one? Torn with the decision do I join or not join.


----------



## irnfit

The only way this can be resolved is to breed a new breed, The Havana Silk Dog. I would imagine that the parties involved, having done all this research, already have the dogs to begin this. After so many years and generations, I believe it can become a recognized breed. AKC has already recognized the Havanese, regardless of the fact if it is Cuban or Arizona, Russian, etc. So, there will just be a new breed, the Havana Silk, and you will have a choice of another dog.


----------



## Sunnygirl

I've been a Havanese owner for all of 3 days, and my puppy is not a show dog and will be neutered in a couple months, so my perspective is probably different from that of others. I can't imagine this will have much of an effect on the average Havanese pet owner, other than to provide some additional information. If someone is looking for a Havanese that appearance-wise is more like the Cuban Havanese (longer muzzle, almond eyes, straighter silky coat, etc.), there will be a resource through this new club to find breeders who are breeding for these features. It sounds like you may reduce the risk of CD going the Havana Silk Dog route as well, although I would think there will be plenty of breeders who are not part of the new organization who produce healthy puppies, and I'd be surprised if there was never an incidence of CD in the pups of Havanese registered with the new organization. It also sounds like dogs who are registered with this new organization will still be Havanese - they'll be registered with the AKC as Havanese, they'll compete as Havanese and on the website it says that the Havana Silk Dog will probably not be recognized as its own breed by the AKC. Nothing about this seems bad to me, but then again I'm not a breeder or part of the show world.


----------



## Melissa Miller

They did the research with OUR money. OUR meaning money we as *Havanese* owners donated to HEART. My question is this, if they can get rid of all these Health problems and make this perfect rare dog, why not do it with the HAVANESE?! Some of these people were on the BOARD of HCA. Which means they were supposed to have the HAVANESE, the dogs as we now have and love, best interest at heart. Not working on the side towards creating a breed that basically benefits them and their dogs.

I appreciate the people that are being open minded about it, and I will continue to listen and try to learn. But I have a very BAD taste in my mouth and feel somewhat betrayed by people who were supposed to be researching how to rid OUR dogs of Health problems. Not say, Oh we created this new breed, so see the rest of you later!

We have a Standard ( Im pretty sure the deserters helped create that Standard but Im not sure) Because they could not change the standard to what they, BEING A SMALL GROUP OF PEOPLE see how it should be now to benefit them, they just go and create a NEW one.

I encourage everyone to do their OWN research. Look at the dogs in Cuba in History. Research who started the breed here and brought these dogs over. Read what Keith Murphy has to say about the Health Research he did for Heart. Look hard at the Standard. If the dogs look different in the ring, it could be a breeders problem trying to make anything a show dog. Not a problem with the Standard. If the Standard needs changed then do research and do it within our breed! If you are unsuccessful in doing that, MAYBE there is a REASON.

California has a lot of democrats and that party lost the last election. Maybe they should just divide off and start their own country.


----------



## Melissa Miller

I have thought about this some more and its not bothering me so much. 
Because it should not affect me at ALL. If you think about it, they have just left and started their own thing. Whooptie, thats their right. 
Im going to continue supporting the HCA and doing whats best for my dogs and go right along with business. 

I think everyone else should just research and make their own decisions. You may like the new breed better just like some people like cockapoos better than poodles.


----------



## marbenv

I'm with you, Melissa. I see NO reason to not do this within th existing breed,

I smell the rotten stench of money!! New breed--more money!! Hope I'm wrong.

Marsha


----------



## abuelashavanese

Could it be that our American Bred Havanase are not as “bad” as they would like you to think? The American Breeders have invested years and years towards health testing and the evaluation of producing healthy dogs. Could it be that our breeders and AKC judges do know a little something?


----------



## Thumper

Melissa, 

You make wonderful points. I also had a bit of a bad taste in my mouth when I initially read about it
My initial thought, that this was fueled by financial motivation, and a "my dogs are better than everyone else's dog" type thing. If I was a breeder, I might be a little put off.

Every breed faces health issues, just as humans do, just as every living THING on the planet. I'm curious to see what a "Havana Silk" dog will cost in comparison to a "Havanese".

There are plenty of environmental causes for defects. Not all are genetic.

Kara


----------



## havanesebyha

Melissa,

Thank you ~ you have made some good strong points, and I love your last one about California and the Democrates! 

Libby


----------



## Thumper

One more point.

In regards to the weight standards, this is a sticky wicket because the majority of our food, and our dogs food is LOADED with growth hormones! We chemically alter our foods to grow rapidly and large, and there are lots of studies out there on this about how we are much bigger than we were 40 years ago. Genetically engineered foods are where the fingers are pointing. Also, many chemical additives that are in foods could cause birth defects and abnormalities. I've done alot of research on this because I have major food sensitivities and allergies. So much junk in everything. Dog food too!

This would effect our pets as well, and explain why so many of them have grown over of the "standard" or I should say 13.5 lbs.

Mine hasn't, she'll likely be a tiny lil' girl, but thats no guarantee.

Kara


----------



## Havtahava

> In regards to the weight standards, this is a sticky wicket because the majority of our food, and our dogs food is LOADED with growth hormones! We chemically alter our foods to grow rapidly and large, and there are lots of studies out there on this about how we are much bigger than we were 40 years ago.


Kara, there are no weight standards for Havanese, but your comments on the growth hormones reminded me that my conformation trainer is very anti-puppy food for that reason. He only feeds his dogs adult formulas to keep them from having strange growth spurts. (And he's doing something right because he had the top Dalmatian bitch in the country last year.)


----------



## whitBmom

Kara, I am with you. It took me aback when I read the information and I am still mauling it over. Geez. Right now, the yahoo groups are flooded with posts that right now I can't even read them. This is such an uproar for so many involved. An after thinking about things thoroughly, I can now see so many of those backyard breeders now claiming they offer "Havana Silk dogs", seeing how they are trying to spin this off as if one is healthier than the other. Its as if, all the work and time the breeders have put in over the years now amounts to nothing and somehow, these havs with specific phenotypes are the "real" havs... oh no, sorry, "Havanese Silk Dogs"....


----------



## Thumper

Hmm.......did I misunderstand something? I thought the qualifications for Havana Silk were:

INTERNATIONAL CANINE FOUNDATION
(F.C. I.)

Secretariat General: rue Leopold II, 14-6530, Thuin, Belgique
No 250 Le 24, Semptembre 1963

Standard: Bichon Havanais

The Bichon Havanais is a dog of small size.

BODY: The body is a little longer than the height, the ribs rounded, the flanks well-raised, the line of the back ends with a well-descended croup.

LEGS: The legs are straight, quite seches (lean; literally: dry), the toes elongated and seches.

TAIL: The tail is carried raised in the shape of a crosier and is trimmed with long silky hair.

HEAD: The head is broad and flat across the skull, the front a little raised.

EYES: The eyes are rather large, very dark, preferably black. Eyelids almond-shaped.

EARS: The rather pointed ears are dropped, forming a soft fold, a little raised, directed neither toward the sides nor framing the cheeks.

MUZZLE: The muzzle is rather refined, the cheeks very flat, not prominent. The jaws fit well, the nose is black.

HAIR: The hair is quite flat, rather soft, forming light wispy waves at the ends of each strand.

COLOR: Rarely completely pure white, light or dark tan, havane, gray, or white largely marked with specified colors.

The hair on the muzzle may be slightly trimmed, but it is preferable to leave it natural.

WEIGHT: *Not to exceed 6 kilos. (13.2 pounds)
*



I must be confused? lol,

Lots of fascinating information out there on what we've done to our food supply and how it is effecting the size and height of the average American.

Kara


----------



## Melissa Miller

Kara I think Kimberly just meant on the standard with Havanese now, not the HS. She must have thought you were talking about Havanese in general. 

Goldie asked me which one she was and I told her she was a princess. 

SO I wonder where donations to Heart go now? Do they still go torwards research for the HAVANESE or will they be researching things for the new designer breed.


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

How can you can you say that is a 'designer breed'? I thought designer breeds were people who just put together 2 different breeds, call it a 'havapoo or peekapoo' or whatever the mix is, just to give it a fancy name other than mutt. Please correct me if i am wrong about that.
We must be reading different information.


----------



## Julie

The more I think about this.....the more I think something's "fishy".We already have "havana silks",our havanese!They can't call them that,can they?I think within the havanese breeders,they just need to breed to standard.Some do,some don't,but you are going to have that no matter what.If they changed the way a hav could be shown and got "champion"in front of their name,would help alot,and educate the judges.You should not be able to actively show a puppy....If you run a puppy around enough,it can get champion in front of his/her name before they are even old enough and mature enough to see if they meet the standards.If it develops problems,no one knows but the breeder,but he looks impressive because he has "ch"in front of his name.Not all these dogs can be champions...some do not have the correct coat type,size,eyes,tail set on and on.If we can all see it,the havanese club can too,and so can the AKC,the judges etc.It seems like the hav breeders are a little "cut throat""mine is better then yours" thing,but this is why we need to urge them to come together for the quality and stability of the breed.What good can come out of this?Someone is taking a stand,but they need to reach out to fellow breeders and hav people and "be happy"for someone else who may have a better example of the breed.Don't let the handler over primp these dogs,cut them and do this stuff that gives them an edge in the showring.Be honest and forthright.If you do this to your dog,you are disqualified......period.It's sad.......very very sad....


----------



## Havtahava

Kara, the FCI standard isn't for the United States. That's a whole different ball game altogether. The confusion is that there are so many similar names being tossed around in these topics, but they are all different.

The AKC standard is all that matters in the U.S. The Havana Silk Dog Association doesn't have a standard that I've seen so far. (But they may have one that I missed.)


----------



## Thumper

Okay,

Thanks for clearing that up for me 

Kara


----------



## ruthann

*Texas A&M study*

There are several people out there who have the impression the Texas A&M University did it's health studies on the Havanese to benefit the Havana Silk Dog? It is my understanding that Texas A&M did these studies to find out about the health problems found in the Havanese. The results of there studies showed that the genes causing chondrodysplastic phenotype was found in SunHaven Kennels 6 dogs purchased by Mrs. Goodale. Mrs. Goodale eventually eliminated these dogs from her kennel because they had liver problems and bone structure problems? Their genes still are in our American Havanese? It's these genes that need to be eleminated. This appears to me can only be done by gene testing and eleminating breeding dogs who carry those genes. 
I consider myself fortunate that Annabelle has been pronounced healthy per all the testing my Vet has done. I want all our beloved pets to have the best life posible. If working toward eleminating these genes dubbed the Arizona Kindred and that will prevent suffering, I support Breeders who take this into consideration. Those of us who have Havanese as our beloved companions who choose them for their common behavioral characterists want them to be happy and healthy.


----------



## SMARTY

Someone mentioned a yahoo web site for havanese discussions, do any of you have the address.


----------



## whitBmom

Sandi, if you have a yahoo acct, then you can request membership for any of the havanese groups. Simply do a search within all the groups and you will find them.


----------



## irnfit

I guess I'm feeling like everyone else...confused. We all have dogs/pups that are called Havanese, a recognized breed with the AKC. People who breed Havanese, breed their dogs to the standards set forth by these organizations. Some are a little more conscientious(?) then others in their breeding practices. 

A rose by any other name? Just because a few people have decided to go in another direction and give the breed a different name does not diminish our wonderful dogs. They are still Havanese. Are you going to get rid of your dog, because someone now says it is not from the original breeding stock? I don't think so. And since there were 11 original dogs used for breeding, don't all our dogs have some of these genes?

Let these people breed their Havana Silks. As long as they are doing it for the Havanese (and not their pockets), I wish them luck.


----------



## KristinFusco

Hi all  ,

I am an absolute novice when it comes to Havanese, but I am a graduate student in the field of genetic engineering, so I felt compelled to post on this thread. I am glad that the post in which someone said that Diane and Doc were having a larger frequency of health problems with their stock was removed, because I respectfully believe that to be untrue. Diane and Doc are two of the leading proponents of health testing in all breeds. I would argue that you would probably find lower incidence of genetic health issues with their dogs since they were some of the earliest breeders to push for the DNA sequencing and gene mapping of diseases in dogs. 

As a supporter of one of Diane's protegees (she helped me find Kimberly at Havtahava when my husband and I were looking for an adult male companion Hav!!!!!!), I firmly believe that they do not breed with financial motivation. I am uneducated on the new standard that they are proposing, so I can't comment on their reasoning or if I believe them to be right or wrong.

For the people who had questions about genetics, it is actually somewhat of a fallacy that inbreeding leads to higher incidences of genetic mutations and disorders. Without getting into too much detail, if you don't breed those individuals that exhibit a poor phenotype (ie a genetic disorder), then theoretically their recessive mutation should be removed from the gene pool. If you look at the strains of inbred mice that are used in research, you can actually "breed out" a gene mutation by crossing individuals who do not carry it. THerefore, it is not the size of the breeding stock that matters, but the quality of the gene pool that they carry (theoretically of course). As we get better at gene mapping and identifying deleterious mutations, only healthy dogs will be bred to give us pets that live longer, healthier lives free of painful, inheritable diseases.

~Kristin


----------



## Melissa Miller

Kristin, 

That was a great post! Thanks for the information. It will be very valuable to have you here on the forum. There is no doubt that Doc and Diane are too very smart and educated people esp. in Havanese. I think my biggest concern was why they had to split and venture off and could not take this knowledge and grow the breed we have already established.


----------



## ama0722

Kristin,
Thanks for your thoughts and background. I actually called my girlfriend today to talk about this too. As I have taken a few biology classes but I just remembered bigger pool of genes=better for the most part. She told me inbreeding can be good and it can be bad. She said when there is something bad inbreeding can magnify it since it would be in all the dogs (that kind of made sense). She also said you might not know about it as it could be recessive and show up later. 

I thought ideally it sounds great- lets take the healthiest dogs we have and breed them. I also thought isn't this what most of the good havanese breeders are doing anyway? If this was such a great idea why wouldn't all the other breeds that have been around for a longer time do the same thing?

Amanda


----------



## Havtahava

Isn't Kristin cool? She's such a smarty. :tea:


----------



## Havtahava

Amanda, there is so much more to the "why" that it would be difficult to explain. In short, this is probably better for everyone. Hopefully, it will lessen the fighting within the Havanese Club of America and the two groups can now both relax and focus on their goals as they part ways.

For the rest of us, I suspect it will have a trickle down affect, but no one (breeders) will be forced to choose sides for quite a while, if ever. If you aren't a breeder, I don't think this will have a big impact on you at all... a small one, yes, but nothing earth shattering.


----------



## KristinFusco

Hi Amanda,

You are right in that a bigger gene pool usually means less incidence of disease, but that is only because it is unlikely for any individual in a very mixed population to meet up with another individual carrying that same recessive trait that would result in a "sick" offspring. It is a matter of statistics. But if you have a small, concentrated gene pool where no individuals carry a negative recessive mutation (again this is all theory), you won't have any instances of disease either, provided that no naturally occuring gene mutations have affected an individual. In the past, we had no way of knowing if a recessive mutation was being carried because it is "dormant" until two dogs recessive for the same gene pass it on to their offspring, giving them the disease. But as we map the genome and gain a better understanding of inheritable disorders, we will be able to compare a DNA sample of one dog to another (or a standard), and see if one of their alleles carries a recessive gene that is a negative mutation resulting in disease. So your friend was right, it can be good and bad, which was the rambling point I was trying to make on my last post. Provided the concentrated set of genes are "good", then your population of dogs will be healthy. If there are bad mutations, breeding within a small pool only exacerbates the problem.

~KF


----------



## MaddiesMom

Since I know nothing about it, I really have no opinion on the "new breed" argument, but you know what's interesting? I read that Arizona Conundrum article where it says "On the other hand, Havanese produced under the Mendoza, SRR, and Destiny prefixes were primarily Arizona phenotype". My first havanese, bought 9 years ago has 1 Mendoza and 2 Destiny's in her 3 generation pedigree, the closest being her Grandmother whose parents have both a Destiny and a Mendoza prefix. She definitely looked different than Maddie. She had round eyes, curly coat, and was much shorter legged. I believe she also had CD and she sadly died at age 8 years old of liver failure. I bought her in Arizona, as I could not find a local breeder back then. Just something to make you go, "Hmmmmmmm".


----------



## DAJsMom

I feel badly for current Arizona breeders who may suffer from the name association. Dusty's a native Arizonan, but you have to go way back in her pedigree to find any of the kennel names mentioned in the article-Cuban, or Arizonan or anything else. All of her ancestors for several generations are health tested, many have chic numbers, including both of her parents and two of her grandparents (the other two have extensive health testing). She has nice straight legs. Hope the excellent breeders out here don't suffer. 

As a pet owner, we did the best we could to end up with a healthy dog, and if that's what we got, I think we were mostly lucky. Most of the information I read before we found Dusty was just confusing. As long as the parents were verifiably health tested, we weren't sure what else to look for. I think it's too bad the health problems that research is helping to identify can't be addressed in a less political way within the havanese club rather than starting something entirely new.


----------



## MaddiesMom

Dustysmom, I certainly didn't mean to imply that there is a problem with Arizona breeders. I wouldn't hesitate to get a puppy from one. I'm sure that most breeders, wherever they are, get their breeding stock from all different geographical areas. Plus, reputable breeders in Arizona are just as health-conscious of their dogs as anywhere else. Back when I got my first Havanese, the breeder only tested for CERF. I don't blame the breeder at all, since I don't think they knew of any other problems back then. There just weren't that many Havanese around. All we can do now to maximize our chances of a healthy Havanese is to do what you did....select breeders who health test their breeding dogs, no matter where they are located. That was my main priority in selecting a breeder this time around.


----------



## dboudreau

Melissa Miller said:


> Kristin,
> 
> That was a great post! Thanks for the information. It will be very valuable to have you here on the forum. There is no doubt that Doc and Diane are too very smart and educated people esp. in Havanese. I think my biggest concern was why they had to split and venture off and could not take this knowledge and grow the breed we have already established.


I agree with Melissa, I too don't understand why they couldn't just put all their knowledge into improving the breed in general. I don't understand what the split will accomplish? So many questions.


----------



## DAJsMom

No worries Jeanne! I meant that about the Arizona breeders as a general comment regarding the name "Arizona Conundrum" and not directed at anyone in particular. Being an Arizona resident, I wish they'd picked a different name for the "problem." eace: 

I'm curious what breeders think of the whole thing, but I agree that it's too bad health problems and breed type issues can't be resolved from within the current organizations. And I agree with Debbie that this raises lots of questions! 

At least Dusty doesn't much care who her ancestors were! She gives lots of licks and cuddles however it all plays out!


----------



## TnTWalter

*OK is it different for dogs than humans? because*



KristinFusco said:


> Hi all  ,
> 
> I am an absolute novice when it comes to Havanese, but I am a graduate student in the field of genetic engineering, so I felt compelled to post on this thread. I am glad that the post in which someone said that Diane and Doc were having a larger frequency of health problems with their stock was removed, because I respectfully believe that to be untrue. Diane and Doc are two of the leading proponents of health testing in all breeds. I would argue that you would probably find lower incidence of genetic health issues with their dogs since they were some of the earliest breeders to push for the DNA sequencing and gene mapping of diseases in dogs.
> 
> As a supporter of one of Diane's protegees (she helped me find Kimberly at Havtahava when my husband and I were looking for an adult male companion Hav!!!!!!), I firmly believe that they do not breed with financial motivation. I am uneducated on the new standard that they are proposing, so I can't comment on their reasoning or if I believe them to be right or wrong.
> 
> For the people who had questions about genetics, it is actually somewhat of a fallacy that inbreeding leads to higher incidences of genetic mutations and disorders. Without getting into too much detail, if you don't breed those individuals that exhibit a poor phenotype (ie a genetic disorder), then theoretically their recessive mutation should be removed from the gene pool. If you look at the strains of inbred mice that are used in research, you can actually "breed out" a gene mutation by crossing individuals who do not carry it. THerefore, it is not the size of the breeding stock that matters, but the quality of the gene pool that they carry (theoretically of course). As we get better at gene mapping and identifying deleterious mutations, only healthy dogs will be bred to give us pets that live longer, healthier lives free of painful, inheritable diseases.
> 
> ~Kristin


I thought that's why it's against the law to marry someone more closely related than your 2nd cousin...for negative gene pool mixing....is that just a myth??

Trish


----------



## Lina

Trish,

I don't think that it's against the law to marry someone closer than your 2nd cousin... I don't think there's a law like that at all. Perhaps a sibling? In that case, it's mostly because it's frowned upon socially but also because there IS a chance of a recessive gene sprouting a disease.

What Kristin was saying is that in-breeding "perfect" genes will not cause disease. That is only if the two dogs (or people) do not have any recessive diseases of their own. However, it is very difficult (time consuming and expensive) to know if people are carrying any recessive genes, which is why in-breeding of any kind is looked down upon in society and in general.

However, if both dogs (or people) are completely healthy and have absolutely no recessive mutations, everything should be fine by the two of them breeding. This is really hard to do, though, and requires complete mapping of their genomes - as Kristin mentioned is done for lab animals such as mice and rats.


----------



## mckennasedona

I agree, Dusty's Mom, I really wish it hadn't been referred to as the Arizona Conundrum!  

I've been a member of the Big Hav List for gosh, almost four years and every so often something blows up and even a novice like me(who has never posted to that list that I can recall) could tell there was bad blood between two groups. Different theories, different beliefs and very different goals for the breed and sometimes it got downright nasty but that happens in any group of passionate people.

How does one tell which stock one's dog comes from? I've looked at the Gallery and once I get past the first three generations or so, I'm lost. Not that it matters one whit. My girls are perfect but I'm a curious sort.

Susan


----------



## juliav

mckennasedona said:


> How does one tell which stock one's dog comes from? I've looked at the Gallery and once I get past the first three generations or so, I'm lost. Not that it matters one whit. My girls are perfect but I'm a curious sort.
> Susan


I would like to know that as well, although it doesn't really matter to me as Bugsy is just my beloved pet - call it natural curiosity. I also am not sure which Gallery you are referring to.


----------



## DAJsMom

I reread the "Arizona Conundrum" article. It sounds like essentially every havanese in the US and probably Canada and Europe too, has Arizona dogs and all the others in it's pedigree to varying degrees. I think if you count up all the dogs in Fido's pedigree as far back as you can go, and do some math, you could figure out an approximate percentage. That's a little too much work for me!  
After the second read, it sounds like the Havana Silk people think that the Arizona genes basically need to be bred out, and that doing so will result in healthy dogs, that look like their Cuban ancestors, but that do not conform to the current standard, because the current standard was influenced too much by the "bad" part of the gene pool. I assume they have pursued changing the standard to reflect what they believe is best and when that didn't work, started this new organization. I'm sure there's good and concientious and knowledgable, well-educated breeders that would disagree with their interpretation of the data and with the solution to the problem. I'll be curious to see how it plays out.


----------



## Greg

*crosspost from doc*

Doc asked that we crosspost this.............I figure this list is full of Havanese lovers too........so here it is in consectutive posts:

Who would have thought that a simple announcement by a small group of dog fanciers would cause such an uproar in the Havanese community! Any illusion I might have had that leaving HCA activities behind would reduce my mail burden has certainly vanished. I've been reading a slew of messages, some calm and rational, many somewhat hysterical and paranoid, expressing concerns and fears that somehow this move is going to be damaging to HCA. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I am going to attempt to clarify what is going on with those of us who have formed the Havana Silk Dog Association of America and what the likely effect will be on HCA and the Havanese community in general. I'd like to clear up a few misconceptions and answer some questions that I have been asked.


----------



## Greg

1. No one has claimed that 'your' dogs are mutts and 'our' dogs are 'pure'. (Quite the contrary, some people have been claiming, for years, that 'our' dogs are mutts...grin.) We all started in the same place (in fact, the first two foundation dogs in the HSDAA registry are both a combination of Costa Rican/Arizona breeding stock.) It's no secret that there are differences of opinion as to what a Havanese should look like and, due to selective breeding, there have evolved at least 2 very different 'types' of Havanese. The problem is that there should be only ONE type in any given breed as type is defined as that group of elements that make a breed unique. Havanese DO look as if there are 2 separate breeds and, in the show ring, it confuses judges...I'm not talking about a little variation in style I'm talking about 2 different dogs, period. This is not surprising as, when Dorothy began with Havanese, she began with 2 very different types of dog. I read her interview in Our Havanese and she basically described smaller dogs with straight legs and missing teeth vs larger dogs with barrel chests, legs wrapped around those chests, easty/westy feet and great teeth (not quoting here cause the mag is in my van.) Her description only confirms our belief that the Havanese breed of today is derived partly from the dogs of Cuba and partly from dogs that, well, by Dorothy's description do not resemble the dogs of Cuba. Now whether you believe this or not, it really doesn't make any difference to the status of the Havanese today...ALL purebred dogs in existence were created by man, some by combination of other breeds, some by selection and refinement of existing breeds. Referring to the Havanese as we know it today as derivative is not slander, not insult, not threatening and not meant to offend...it simply is what is. Admitting the history does not threaten Havanese status with AKC at all. 

What should be obvious is that there are irreconcilable differences within the Havanese community as to what today's Havanese SHOULD look like and our standard (which I am not slamming, btw, since I was involved in writing it) has enough wiggle room to allow significant variations in interpretation so that quite disparate dogs can win on any given day depending on how a judge interprets the standard. If you want specific examples of the two 'types' of Havanese who have both been very successful but who are entirely different dogs, all you have to do is look at Keebler and Pan. Do they look like the same breed? Not really, but they can both manage to fit under the umbrella of the AKC standard. Those of us who prefer the original Cuban type dog simply wish to go in peace and continue to select for our preferred type of dog. Because it is our belief that the types are disparate enough to constitute a separate breed, this is our ultimate goal. There is ample precedent for this within AKC, breeds splitting off and going their separate ways (look at the Norwich and Norfolk terriers...the only difference there is whether their ears are up or down and this was deemed enough difference to split the registry and form 2 breeds...we are way beyond that!) How can this be a bad thing...it's win/win for everyone! Those of you who've hated us for years and had to endure our constant preaching about health testing and chondrodysplasia will no longer have to put up with our nagging. Those who remain with HCA will be free to continue their vision of the modern Havanese without interference from those who wish to preserve original Cuban type dogs. I thought these people would be dancing on the tables to see us gone...grin. I know if I was them I'd sure be happy to see me gone.


----------



## Greg

2. We are not out to 'destroy' HCA or 'rip apart' the Havanese community. We have simply accepted the fact that, like people stuck in a very bad marriage, all parties concerned would be better off going their separate ways...an amicable divorce, so to speak, which should relieve the continual conflict that occurs when 2 groups with different philosophies try to live under the same roof and keep bumping into each other and butting heads. We wish the HCA well and many years of continued success. We have given many years of our lives serving HCA and the Havanese community and know that our efforts were appreciated by the majority of the community despite the continued harrassment by a small, but vocal group of detractors. These folks should be the happiest of the bunch to see us go...perhaps when they calm down (they always get agitated when they see our names...sigh...jump to bite before they even know what's going on) they'll realize that our current endeavor is in their best interests as well as ours. Why on earth would anyone who hates us so be so upset that we're walking away? It doesn't make any sense but then, that's often par for the course.


----------



## Greg

3. Our association/registry is NO threat to the Havanese breed. Some ask how can a dog registered as a Havana Silk Dog also be a Havanese? Well, at this time, we are creating a registry for HAVANESE that meet certain requirements (which are listed on the HSDAA website.) Saying that any dog registered with the Havana Silk Dog Association can't be a Havanese is like saying that a Havanese listed with OFA registry can't be a Havanese. It's pointless at this time to debate whether or not AKC will recognize them...we can cross that bridge when we come to it...for now, an HSD is a Havanese that meets the criteria set by the HSDAA. What is the point of debating who is 'right'? This isn't about who is 'right' ...it's about recognizing that the differences in vision for the dogs necessitate a parting of the ways in order for peace to return to the land.


----------



## Greg

4. Are we abandoning the Havanese community? Not exactly...for years our energies have been devoted to raising consciousness, educating both breeders and the public about health issues and working to protect AND preserve the breed. For years we have wasted some of that energy combatting those who would silence us, discredit us and the research we supported (even to the extent of questioning the integrity of our researchers at TAMU, whose research paper was accepted by peer review in one of the most prestigious scientific journals) and who, to this very day, try to justify the continued breeding of CD dogs despite the fact that TAMU research has proven the existence of OS and its link to CD, and found over 100 genes that segregate differently between affected and normal dogs. We have just accepted the reality that our energies are best devoted to supporting those with a common vision for the dogs instead of continuing to have to fight every step of the way with those who have a very different vision.


----------



## Greg

5. How can we call our dogs Havanese if we are breeding to a 'different' standard. How about a dog registered with UKC and AKC? My Poppy is registered with UKC and AKC...each registry has a different standard yet each calls them Havanese! Until such time as AKC recognizes HSDs at a separate breed, they are STILL Havanese. A Havanese that is registered with HSDAA can be shown as a Havanese at any AKC show as long as they are also registered with AKC. For that matter, how about those European imports...they are being bred to a different standard but they can be registered with AKC, too. Let me also clarify that the standard on the HSDAA site is not the 'official' HSDAA standard...it is simply the 1963 standard which is the same standard that Dorothy began with. We are working on a standard which, in fact, is similar to the AKC Havanese standard only more precise. When it is finished, it will be published on the website and then each can review it and then decide what to think of it.


----------



## Greg

6. The HSDAA is a work in progress...we are just getting started and, for the first time in a long time, we are recapturing that joy that comes when you know you are taking a positive step towards a brighter future. It's that same excitement that we had when we began H.E.A.R.T. back in 1999...a sense of cooperation and unity in a group of people with a common vision and a desire to work together in a spirit of harmony for the good of the dogs we love. That we have chosen to take an alternate path should be welcomed by those with a different vision of the future of the Havanese. I ask that those of you who are interested in membership or information about registering dogs will be patient...this is all going to take some time and we are all volunteers. The website will be updated as information becomes available.

I hope this answers some of your questions and clarifies some of the confusion about HSDAA. I do not have time to engage in debate nor do I feel the need to defend our actions or goals. This post is designed to inform only...not to initiate a dialog. If anyone has further questions I do hope you will direct them to [email protected] as my spare time is extremely limited these days. If you made it this far, thank you for taking the time to read this long message....I hope it helped.

Doc
...primum non nocere...


----------



## KristinFusco

"I thought that's why it's against the law to marry someone more closely related than your 2nd cousin...for negative gene pool mixing....is that just a myth??

Trish"

Lina, thanks for answering this one,nicely done :biggrin1: . Trish you are right, it is considered immoral and bad genetically in the human world to marry close relations, but all of the reasons that Lina stated for why it is considered bad are the correct ones. It is more a matter of not wanting to concentrate a gene pool too much to eliminate the CHANCE of two people who might carry a recessive gene coming together, especially when their genetic makeup is unknown. A case study they used in undergrad was the Spanish Hapsburgs vs the Egyptian phaorahs. The Egyptians successfully "inbred" their aristocracy for various periods of time over the 3,000 year history of the phaorahs (brother/sister or cousin etc) and produced mostly healthy, intelligent individuals consistently throughout that time. The Spanish empire, on the other hand, inbred through marriages between cousins and aunts-nephews etc. for hundreds of years, and by the end of the line, had produced individuals with myriad health problems and short life spans. What was the difference? It was the fact that the Egyptian royalty were apparently not carrying recessive genes that SIGNIFICANTLY impacted health, whereas the Spanish aristocracy were. In the dog world, I imagine breeders strive to be like the Egyptians, maintaining a consistent look, health and intelligence level throughout the generations. Please note I am not condoning inbreeding among people :biggrin1: .

~Kristin


----------



## Greg

I feel like I'm in heaven..........GO Kristin GO!

Trish:

Before we linebreed we "test breed." In that we do a very close breeding like a father/daughter breeding. Many times with a breeding this close, the recessive genes will express themselves and we will be able to determine the nature of those genes (which are otherwise hidden). Once we determine we are linebreeding off the correct stud, we then will use something similar to Brackett's Formula to select our breeding pairs. FYI Brackett came up with his "The Sire of the Sire is the Grandsire on the Dam's side" formula. That would mean uncle to niece. Hope that helps.


----------



## SMARTY

Thank you Greg, Diane and Doc.

_Sandi_


----------



## Greg

that would be "the Sire of the Sire is the Grandsire of the Bitch on the Dam's side." SOrry


----------



## Greg

welcome Smarty. Just to keep my faces straight.....were you the one who got that pretty hav puppy on the street corner?


----------



## Leeann

Thanks for all the great reading Greg & Kristin.


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

Hi Greg, thank you so much for taking the time to write all this. I really appreciate you answering questions & hopefully people are better informed of whats going on & to not think this is a bad thing.
I did meet a 'Greg from Fla' on Saturday, so i am not sure if that was you. My husband and i were talking to Smarty i think when you introduced yourself.(she was telling us the funny story of how she bought her dog). Anywhoo, if that was you it was nice meeting you!!


----------



## KristinFusco

I wanted to clarify something I said last post. In the past, eventually, all prolonged inbreeding among humans led to health problems, even with the Egyptian lines I was referring to. That was because unlike the dog world, where reputable breeders don't breed animals exhibiting a genetic disorder, sick human individuals or people who were unknowing carriers of a disease would still reproduce to spread their genes. The dog world people are much more selective about that kind of thing (or they should be!). If a particular pairing produced unhealthy young, they spay/neuter the pups and don't repeat that breeding.

I will stop boring everyone now, I should be studying for my exam 

~Kristin

*I just wanted to add that I in no way am applying the "gene testing" theory to humans, I only mean that dog breeders should be cautious with which dogs they breed because there is a high cost for these puppies, and people deserve healthy pets.


----------



## SMARTY

That's right, Greg. Side of the road puppy.


----------



## Greg

LuvMyHavanese said:


> Hi Greg, thank you so much for taking the time to write all this. I really appreciate you answering questions & hopefully people are better informed of whats going on & to not think this is a bad thing.
> I did meet a 'Greg from Fla' on Saturday, so i am not sure if that was you. My husband and i were talking to Smarty i think when you introduced yourself.(she was telling us the funny story of how she bought her dog). Anywhoo, if that was you it was nice meeting you!!


yep that was me. Nice to meet you again online


----------



## KristinFusco

Sandy,

I absolutely LOVE Smarty's coloring!


----------



## Greg

Smarty is a lovely typey puppy she purchased on the side of the road. He's a pistol too.


----------



## SMARTY

Thank you so much. She is a treat to live with.

_*Sandi*_


----------



## TnTWalter

*After reading doc's response, it makes me go HMMMM...*

if Doc wants to create a havana silk dog that is so different than the other havanese dog and she doesn't want it to be a havanese then it shouldn't be registered as havanese in my opinion.

They state on their website that they are trying to conform to the original more healthy better coat, etc. dogs....doesn't that indirectly knock the other 'type'?

And if they are producing a superiour breed, why call it a havanese? gee, i don't know, hmmm... oh yes so it could be because they still want AKC?? [the ole' have your cake and eat it too].

i'm a newbie to all of this but i think what they did was NOT to better the Havanese breed but to create a new better breed [in their opinion]. That's not bad in itself, but they're not being honest about it....in my humble opinion.

:tape:

trish


----------



## TnTWalter

*Wow and thanks for the fabulous genetic information.*

I appreciate all your clarifications. Thanks.
Trish:biggrin1:


----------



## KristinFusco

No problem Trish!

I wish I knew more about Havanese, I am a newbie too, but I am learning quickly thanks to everyone on the site and my little furbaby Carlito!

~Kristin


----------



## Greg

Well I know them personally and they are being honest about it. But it's not just them. There are literally dozens of breeders, new and old, who think that while they can't save the whole breed........they can save part of it. 

First of all I think the Havanese is a wonderful breed. I think Havanese breeders can be wonderful people and I even know a few. However I think Dorothy Goodale mixed “the original dog from Cuba” with something she purchased from a woman in Arizona. In her interview in Our Havanese she states that one group of dogs was small. One group had short front legs that tended to be a little round with wide fronts (sound familiar?). All had heads where the muzzle was equal in length to the head. Only the group of larger dogs had 6/6 bites. When I read this it fit with exactly what Diane was saying about the AZ Conundrum. 



When Kat (my Cuban sister-in-law) and her mother went to Cuba they looked and went over several dogs from several different breeders. Those dogs all had rather flat coats, long muzzles and long necks. All had tails OVER the back (not touching). They gave a presentation at our National last year and only a handful of people attended. Actually I found the turnout interesting as I would have thought people would be interested in knowing how our dogs compared to those in Cuba.

And because of breeding choices that were made years before I came along, the traits consistent with the HSD are prevalent in my program. And I like them. I got angry when people said Charly wasn’t a Havanese. They said my dogs were mutts (to my face at least). Well, we finally agreed with them. Our dogs aren’t Havanese. I bring this up because I believe the HSD is ONE of the dogs Dorothy used to create the Havanese. I don’t believe that ALL the dogs Dorothy used were “the original dogs of Cuba.” So I, along with others, began investigating what the “original dog of Cuba” actually was. We found huge inconsistencies in Dorothy’s story. We found that dogs without much American Havanese blood in them looked remarkably similar. The health research indicated that dogs with lower percentages of AZ blood were healthier…..yet they had bite issues among other things (welcome to our world).

Diane found copies of almost a dozen Havanese Standards since 1981 when Dorothy wrote one based on the ’63 Standard and what she was looking at. And they kept changing until the dog we have today looks nothing like the dog it originally started out with. And while some people prefer the dog of today, we prefer the dog that helped make the dog of today.

We don’t want to change the Havanese. We don’t’ want to change the HCA Standard. We want to take our dogs that appear to be a different breed, add the history we’ve discovered and go our merry way. People can come with us or not……..either way you are still my friend. I’ll clap for you when you win and watch you across the ring…But someday, and it may take a long time…….I’ll be back in the AKC with my dogs…..and they’ll look like the Original Dog of Cuba.


----------



## TnTWalter

*That makes sense Greg ....*

So would you then change to sedosahavanasilk? i guess if the goal is to make a new dog [or go back to the original which is a new dog at this point] i don't understand why the association with havanese would stay? and that's what doc was saying in the quotes you put on this thread. that's where you all lose me. if you think you have a different dog than it should be different. is this correct?

so now people like me who are looking for a dog can choose from havanese, pomeranians, etc. and havana silk? is this the goal? am i getting it right or wrong?

i am just really trying to get it? thanks for your insight. i really appreciate your posts.

trish


----------



## Havtahava

(This message was left blank.)


----------



## abuelashavanese

Come on guys, you want us to believe that the AKC Havanese Champions, Eukanuba, and Westminster winners have been bred by American breeders that are so stupid they have to be told to take the dog to a vet? And their dogs all have the cooties?

This is sick, sad and silly.


----------



## KristinFusco

I haven't read the research article out of TAMU that they cite, but if it was peer reviewed and accepted, that means it is pedagogically sound. If there is a proven genetic link between the carrying of chrondrodysplasia and other diseases, which shorten the lifespan in this particular breed, then as responsible people we should try to breed away dogs with this phenotype.


****I am not a breeder, I am not trying to offend anyone, I am saying this purely from a scientific standpoint  ****


----------



## Greg

KristinFusco said:


> I haven't read the research article out of TAMU that they cite, but if it was peer reviewed and accepted, that means it is pedagogically sound. If there is a proven genetic link between the carrying of chrondrodysplasia and other diseases, which shorten the lifespan in this particular breed, then as responsible people we should try to breed away dogs with this phenotype.


it was actually published and presented at the 2006 Advances in Canine and Feline Genomics Conference at UC Davis


----------



## KristinFusco

Thanks Greg! 

I will read the article. This is so interesting, because I know that some breeds are intentionally bred for chrondrodysplasia (like bulldogs), but I would love to read about how they determined that other deleterious genes were sorting out with the CD locus in Havanese.

~KRistin


----------



## irnfit

I am even more confused after reading Doc's explanation. Where are they getting the Havana Silk Dog breeding stock. Have they been breeding these "HSD" dogs all along? Are other breeders using the standards of the HSDAA to breed? 

I have no objection to them calling this "new breed" Havana Silk Dog. However, I think they could have served a better purpose by helping the good breeders of Havanese. Why didn't they just have a consortium of Havanese breeders and present their information. They could have come up with new testing guidelines and even a different standard that could be phased in over time. 

Like I said before, I have seen it over and over. If they can't get their way, they just leave and form a new club with rules to suit them. This is not a nice way to play.


----------



## KristinFusco

I'm curious as to how it would all work. If the HSD eventually becomes a new breed with the AKC, then how would those of us who already have a Havanese be affected? If our dog was from a certain breeder who was now labeled HSD, would they retroactively change our AKC paperwork to being a Havana Silk dog from being a Havanese?


----------



## Greg

They tried for 8 years. I think that's long enough. 8 years after founding HEART and a year after presenting the findings to the Havanese community at our National Specialty last year we still have well known breeders who think CD is a trait and not a disease. 

On Sunday I was present when woman brought her puppy to Diane and asked her what was wrong with it. I was there when Diane put her hand on one leg and found it curved. When she went to touch the other front leg the dog yelped and tried to bite her. She called Doc over to evaluate the dog's health. Dog took one look at the leg and advised the poor crying owner to contact an Orthopedic Specialist because the dog needed surgery to walk. Just to walk.

8 years of preaching is long enough. All we want is to go back to the healthy straight legged dog of Cuba.


----------



## irnfit

OK, Greg. I understand the frustration. But you can also understand ours as Havanese owners. Now we are almost being told that our dogs are not what they are supposed to be. If I was a breeder, I would be insulted, because they are pretty much saying they are breeding inferior dogs. The good breeders are doing all the testing, etc that is supposed to be done. So are you telling me that HS dogs will never have a health problem?


----------



## Leeann

Some one please help, maybe we can simplify this issue for us pet owner whom do not understand the complicity to breeding.

This is what I am getting out of all this simply stated

What is the one thing we all have stressed to people looking for a Havanese?
Health Test.

What do we all feel about designer dogs?
You do not mix breeds for health reasons.

What has the HSAA found in test?
Another breed has been incorporated into the Cuban Havanese.

What does the HSAA want to do?
Get the gene of this other breed out of our Havanese to have a much healthier dog and get back to the standard Cuban Havanese.

I’m sure I missed something my brain goes too fast for my fingers sometime and I think my computer is sick of google….. Please feel free to correct or clarify this for us.


----------



## Greg

It doesn't have any effect on a Havanese at all. Every owner can determine if they want their dog to be dual registered, much like AKC and OFA. Every dog is admitted based upon health and evaluation. Nobody said anything about pedigree. Every owner that wants a dog registered with the HSDAA just has to submit its health tests (pass only) along with DNA and soaped pictures. Then someone will evaluate the dog to determine if it meets the criteria set forth in the 63 standard as modified by the cuban standard.


----------



## Greg

Greg said:


> it was actually published and presented at the 2006 Advances in Canine and Feline Genomics Conference at UC Davis





lbkar said:


> Some one please help, maybe we can simplify this issue for us pet owner whom do not understand the complicity to breeding.
> 
> This is what I am getting out of all this simply stated
> 
> What is the one thing we all have stressed to people looking for a Havanese?
> Health Test.
> 
> What do we all feel about designer dogs?
> You do not mix breeds for health reasons.
> 
> What has the HSAA found in test?
> Another breed has been incorporated into the Cuban Havanese.
> 
> What does the HSAA want to do?
> Get the gene of this other breed out of our Havanese to have a much healthier dog and get back to the standard Cuban Havanese.
> 
> I'm sure I missed something my brain goes too fast for my fingers sometime and I think my computer is sick of google&#8230;.. Please feel free to correct or clarify this for us.


BINGO!


----------



## Greg

irnfit said:


> OK, Greg. I understand the frustration. But you can also understand ours as Havanese owners. Now we are almost being told that our dogs are not what they are supposed to be. If I was a breeder, I would be insulted, because they are pretty much saying they are breeding inferior dogs. The good breeders are doing all the testing, etc that is supposed to be done. So are you telling me that HS dogs will never have a health problem?


we never said your dog wasn't good. We never said Havanese weren't good. We said that Dorothy crossed a "dog of cuban origin" with something that wasn't "of cuban origin" and got a Havanese......which is now an AKC accepted breed and wonderful in its own right.


----------



## KristinFusco

Hi guys!

I am confused now. I agree with Michele and "Ibkar" that we were all trying our best to have healthy pets by locating breeders who do health testing. Are there breeders who intentionally breed CD into the Havanese? I always thought that if a breeder saw that one of their dogs had it, they spayed/neutered that dog so as not to pass on CD. Am I wrong?


----------



## irnfit

Here's another question...sorry
Who has the fully bred Cuban dog?


----------



## Lina

What I am understanding from this is that the dogs that have the recessive CD gene at all were not the Cuban dogs but the Arizonian dogs, so if they breed only the Cuban dogs then there won't be any chance of CD at all.

However, my question is, what are some of the recessive diseases that the Cuban dogs carry? It's highly unlikely that they do not have any and to say that a dog at least won't have CD but then they develop some other horrible disease is just as bad, in my opinion.

And as Kristin did mention, reputable breeders do spay/neuter dogs that display CD symptoms. I understand that the HSCAA just wants to get rid of that gene altogether (as it is not a "Cuban" gene), but it is also just as important to acknowledge that there are people that are aware of this health problem and are attempting to stop it.

And although you say that what you're saying is not supposed to make the Havanese breeders feel inferior to an HS dog, in reality it really does. In essence the Havanese is a mutt of the HS since it was bred into other lines back in the 1970s... As much as the Doc might say that you're not calling the Havanese mutts, that's what it comes off as.

And I'm not taking sides here, just writing it as I see it.


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

I have my DNA kits for both of my dogs to send in(per my breeders request). I just had them both officially evaluated by Diane on Saturday. I just need a side view of them soaped up.


----------



## mckennasedona

Lina, I tend to agree with you. Maybe if the split had been handled better instead of with an unsigned email and a web site that lists no names whatsoever and wants money sent to a PO Box. I belong to a hobby club (nothing to do with dogs) that had a split several years ago due to fundamental differences of opinion on how the hobby should be run. When one group decided to split off they did so with a bit more finesse. Both are now successful and co-exist peacefully.
The way this was handled and in reading the web site, I do kind of feel like I'm being told my dogs are inferior, and I'm not even a breeder so this doesn't affect me other than making me wonder how predisposed my girls are to having the heritable diseases they are attempting to breed out.

Susan


----------



## havanesebyha

Thank you Greg, Doc, and Diane,

I am new to the Havanese breed and have a one year old and what you have said really makes a lot of sense. Thank you for sharing this with the Havanese world and I think it has answered a lot of questions and concerns!

Libby


----------



## TnTWalter

*But that's not true...how can you be registered with HCA and HSA with the same dog...*

that does not make sense....that's the piece of the puzzle that does not work. Either you have a havanese or you have a havana silk....

what you guys are explaining is IF you had stayed within the havanese and gotten rid of the bad genes [which in my opinion is what should be happening] instead of leaving and becoming your own breed...that's the part that doesn't click with me....you didn't stay and 'fix' what was broken...you left and are starting over. I think that's what happened but everyone's talking around this. IF that's the goal of this group than stick with the goal. But it's confusing to say it both ways. It can't be both ways.

I like and respect all of you. I just don't understand this part of the equation. You can't have a bi-polar dog! LOL.

I don't think it's going to be resolved to make everyone happy sadly. It's a shame really.

Peace Out.

Trish


----------



## Havtahava

Trish, I'm not involved in the HSD, but I think I can explain that part. All of the dogs are Havanese - even the Havana Silk Dogs. The HSDAA is just a registry to set aside a specific type of Havanese.

The AKC only recognizes Havanese at this time. The HSD may be a separate "breed" down the road, but they are all still in the Havanese breed right now.

In simple terms (and I hope not to offend anyone in any position), the human side of the HSD is it's own separate group/club, and the dogs just have a separate club/group (registry) that they belong to. It isn't going to impact the normal Havanese owner unless they feel they are being left out of something, but that's how life goes. We are all excluded from various clubs for a variety of reasons.


----------



## Thumper

Yes, that's true.

However, I think there will be some confusion with new Havanese buyers when they start researching the breed. Like this statement on the puppy buyer's page:

FINDING A PUPPY

Havana Silk Dogs are not for everyone!

If you are looking for a cute,fluffy little dog with a babydoll face, large, round eyes, and a jaunty high-set tail carried curled on his back, a Havana Silk dog may not be the dog for you.

If, on the other hand, your preference is for a more "elegant" little dog of traditional Cuban type, with a silky, wash-and-wear coat (which the average pet owner can maintain without monthly clipping by a professional groomer), dark almond-shaped eyes, and a tail carried high and waving like a plume over his back, from parents who are certified as health-screened and evaluated for soundness, breed type, and proper temperament before breeding, an HSDAA-registered Havana Silk Dog might be just what you are looking for!

That might confuse me a tad if I was a new buyer researching the breed. I also noticed that Diane is about to publish a book "IMPORTANT: All of the following copyrighted material is excerpted from the upcoming book "Havana Silk" by Diane Klumb, and may only be reproduced with written permission from the author for educational purposes only."

That'll definately be an interesting read.

However, I can see why all of this is so confusing. Very intersting thread on genetics. I hope that one day, we can all work together to eliminate the medical problems in our beloved breed.

Regards all,
Kara


----------



## aradelat

Diane Klumb is very anxious to standardize the breed and make it adhere to what she considers the Cuban standard. Supposedly, Cuban dogs are squarer in build (because they have longer legs,) have a lower -hanging tail and slightly different head shape, shorter muzzles and a finer coat than many American dogs, especially those bread from Dorothy Goodale's Arizona pups.
But here's the problem. No one, not even Klumb, has taken stock of the dogs in Cuba. I'm not sure there's not a variety of shapes and sizes to the dogs on that island. I'd love to know.
One thing Ms Klumb should be commended for is her efforts to identify the gene that causes chondrodysplasia in Havanese. One symptom is bowed legs, especially the front legs. I believe my dog may suffer from chondrodysplasia and would love to hear from other Havanese owners whose dogs have had the diagnosis. I would post a new thread on this but don't know how... condaa. io


----------



## TnTWalter

*Kara EXCACTLY that 's the part that.....*

it's not different looks but also health that they're saying is different. If that's the case why would they want to be associated with havanese. To me as an outsider looking in not knowing anyone or having opinions one way or the next [heck I may rather have a havana silk, I don't know]......

it seems like they're trying to break away and still play nice with a breed they are in essence saying is inferior in health and not elegant [that could be good or bad depending on preference it does sound a tad like a put down though].

Kimberly I respectfully disagree. I don't see how they can be havanese and havana silk. That doesn't make sense.

OK...I think I'm done....hope I didn't offend anyone.

Trish


----------



## aradelat

Diane Klumb is very anxious to standardize the breed and make it adhere to what she considers the Cuban standard. Supposedly, Cuban dogs are squarer in build (because they have longer legs,) have a lower -hanging tail and slightly different head shape, shorter muzzles and a finer coat than many American dogs, especially those bread from Dorothy Goodale's Arizona pups.
But here's the problem. No one, not even Klumb, has taken stock of the dogs in Cuba. I'm not sure there's not a variety of shapes and sizes to the dogs on that island. I'd love to know.
One thing Ms Klumb should be commended for is her efforts to identify the gene that causes chondrodysplasia in Havanese. One symptom is bowed legs, especially the front legs. I believe my dog may suffer from chondrodysplasia and would love to hear from other Havanese owners whose dogs have had the diagnosis. I would post a new thread on this but don't know how...


----------



## Olliesmom

Great explanation...to put it in another context - the "arizona" havs could just as easily start their own club if they so chose to! And because there are 2 clubs doesn't mean that as the AKC describe havanese - all are havanese!

I must say tho -and I will sometime follow-up w/ pix....when I picked up Autin I was shocked how different he looked from Ollie - and I do mean different. When I tell people they are the same breed they look at me like I am a nut case (of course that might actually be true!!) The facial structure is completely different - the body shape is like two different breeds and the tail is completely different in the way in which it normally stays - Ollies tail only comes up when he is happy and when he is just walking around it can be down or up where Autin's tail is up 99% of the time just perky and flowing with a soft rounded curve...the ONLY time it is down is if he is getting scolded which we all know is not often cause they just look so sad when you do it!!!! And the coats are completely diff.

Tho the bottom line is this .....THEY think they are brothers and that's all that counts to me! And one is just as adorable as the other!!!!!!!!!! :bounce:


----------



## Havtahava

Trish, all Havana Silk Dogs must be currently registered as Havanese. To become part of the HSD registry, they have to pass an evaluation (among other things).


----------



## Greg

aradelat said:


> But here's the problem. No one, not even Klumb, has taken stock of the dogs in Cuba. I'm not sure there's not a variety of shapes and sizes to the dogs on that island. I'd love to know.


here's where you are wrong. Several people from Canada and Europe have been to Cuba and have taken stock of the dogs. My sister-in-law ( a well respected breeder) has been there (she's Cuban) and evaluated dogs. Her mother has been there and evaluated dogs. They've all come to the same conclusion.


----------



## Greg

TnTWalter said:


> it's not different looks but also health that they're saying is different. If that's the case why would they want to be associated with havanese. To me as an outsider looking in not knowing anyone or having opinions one way or the next [heck I may rather have a havana silk, I don't know]......
> 
> it seems like they're trying to break away and still play nice with a breed they are in essence saying is inferior in health and not elegant [that could be good or bad depending on preference it does sound a tad like a put down though].
> 
> Kimberly I respectfully disagree. I don't see how they can be havanese and havana silk. That doesn't make sense.
> 
> Trish


Thru the TAMU study we learned that we can select away. When we do we find the dog changes appearance to that of the Cuban phenotype. Therefore by selecting towards that phenotype we can select away from the affected genotype. We wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't scientifically accurate. By breeding out the AZ blood we get a more Cuban looking dog. It's that simple


----------



## mckennasedona

Catherine, I'd be interested to see photos of yours to see how different they look. My two share a parent (sire) but they too look quite different from each other in structure as well. They both must have taken after their dams. One is often thought to be a Bichon Frise by the average person they meet on the street and the other is often referred to as a large Maltese (she's all of 10.5 lbs)! Of course, that's probably because most people have still not ever heard of a Havanese. 

Susan


----------



## The Fussy Puppy Gang

I just wanted to weigh in here as a pet Havanese owner and a long-time dog lover.

I commend those that seek to establish the HSD as a separate breed. If the American Havanese has moved away from the original Cuban standard to the degree that it might qualify as a separate breed, then it should BE a separate breed. 

FYI - the original Irish Setter was a red and white dog. The white was bred out because the dark red coat was more popular. Now there's the Irish Red and White Setter that is awaiting AKC acceptance, as it's own breed. 

Whether a dog is HSD or Havanese should have NO affect on pet owners. You'll either prefer one or the other - or maybe one of each. For the breeders, they'll either prefer the looks and type of the Havanese or the HSD. I think it's safe to assume that regardless of breed, both sets of breeders will strive to weed out those genes that cause disease or deformity. 

The only difference will be you have one set of breeders that prefer a certain physical type (Cuban) and another that prefer the American physical type. What's the big deal? 

Until the HSD can be established as it's own breed, it makes sense that they would continue to compete in AKC events. I'm sure the Norfolk Terrier did not stop competing as a Norwich while waiting approval from the AKC as it's own breed.

The Golden Retriever used to compete as a Flat Coated Retriever - Golden. Until it was it's own breed.

This is not new people. It's just a process that has happened many times before and will keep happening as long as groups of people differ on key points within a breed and produce specimens different enough to qualify as a separate breed.

Personally, I like the idea of having a choice of knowing that my dog is an American type Havanese or a Cuban type Havana Silk Dog. There is no disgrace in either, only a preference for certain traits and qualities. 

This is a good thing - for the dogs and for those of us who prefer one type over another.

JMHO,
Wanda


----------



## Melissa Miller

Greg, 
Thanks for posting Docs letter. And thank you for your information. I do give you kuddos for being strong in your stance even though a lot of people disagree with what is going on. 

I suppose it seems to many to be an elite club and some make it and some dont. I have not had time to do the research to argue either point. 

I do have one question, if you all are merely trying to seperate your breed since there are two obvious different Havs, then why continue to register as Havanese? Why continue to enter the show ring next to our Havanese who are not up to par to your standard? Will that not only continue to confuse Judges, breeders and buyers? Continuing to show the dogs side by side when your mission is to separate the breeds is not doing any favors to those who continue on with the Havanese as we know it. You said you are trying to adhere to the original Cuban standard, but plan on entering shows and registering dogs under AKC which has a different standard. Why would anyone with the HSD want to do that? If they win, it is saying they represent the breed the best under a standard you don't believe in. Or did I misunderstand that?

Someone doing research and trying to split off and do their own thing is perfectly ok. Great thing about the USA!  But I do think once your goals are completely different than that of the Association you belong to, you should walk away. Not try to keep mixing the dogs together when it is convenient. 

Im glad we can all have a friendly debate even when we disagree here. I hope it stays that way.


----------



## aradelat

*cuban dogs*



Greg said:


> here's where you are wrong. Several people from Canada and Europe have been to Cuba and have taken stock of the dogs. My sister-in-law ( a well respected breeder) has been there (she's Cuban) and evaluated dogs. Her mother has been there and evaluated dogs. They've all come to the same conclusion.


Well, I remember the dogs I saw in Cuba seemed to be of different shapes and sizes. (although I admit I'm no expert.) Also, the photos in Portuondo's book of the Bichon Havanese show a variance in the breed. Some are "squarer" or larger than others and the ears look different. And Portuondo is trying to standardize the breed in Cuba, so there must be some variance.
Remember, the breed in Cuba was neglected for years and had to be "re-established" by Portuondo and others.


----------



## TnTWalter

*OK last question [thank you all for being nice for my forward issues]...*

WHY WHY WHY would anyone be breeding with the AZ gene if it's 'bad'....??

Wouldn't all reputable hav breeders not want this gene? So let's pretend that everyone wipes out the 'BAD" GENE, THAT WOULD BE BOTH HCA and HSA......now the difference is only looks?

So you can have 2 classes [kindof like black pekignese idea?] of the same breed?? But both are from good healthy stock?? Wouldn't you then start to get some non-comforming issues ....say a long snout on a HSA or silky hair on a HCA? What then?

Am I just really dense??

This affects me as a buyer because of course I want the healthiest dog I can have....but what is that?

OK....I swear that's the last out of me.....:brick:

Trish

:frusty:


----------



## Eileen Marshall

Thank you Diane Doc and Greg, As a new HS owner I never knew this was brewing. My biggest concern was health. Through my research I found Diane, Greg and the Kings, finally my puppy.Ben. After the pain and devestation of going through all the health problems of the Havanese this makes me think my little rescue was from the Arizona type. 
IM happy to see that there is healthy discussion on this. IM grateful to see that finally there will be an organization that has strick health testing before you can breed. We are fortunate to have science on our side. DNA testing? IT will also be used on humans if it is not already. Everyone loves their baby when they arrive as we do our puppies but can you imamgine if you could save one child/family or puppy/family from the pain and heartache of birth defects or crippling disease? 

Thank you all for the education.
Eileen


----------



## ama0722

So I am still kind of confused... weren't the arizona dogs, the costa rican dogs, and the cuban dogs all originally from cuba before they came to the US and were bred? Also were the cuban dogs really so similar looking in phenotype? When I was googling pictures of cuban havanese, even they looked remarkably different. I thought it was likely to be different since the state of the country and there were talks about the dogs not just being companions but being herding dogs, etc. I think how different other breeds of dogs look for example the golden retrievers in the show ring, compared to the hunting line, and the agility dogs that all have AKC papers. So basicallly this would just be like the people with the fine bone red golden retrievers who are amazing at agility breaking off and making a new golden retriever?

I also thought the havanese breed did a lot of health testing compared to many other breeds-well at least the good breeders. I just still wonder what health issues could come with a new breed that limited a gene pool to an even smaller portion of dogs.

I have at least learned a lot about line breeding and inbreeding this week!
Amanda


----------



## Greg

aradelat said:


> Well, I remember the dogs I saw in Cuba seemed to be of different shapes and sizes. (although I admit I'm no expert.) Also, the photos in Portuondo's book of the Bichon Havanese show a variance in the breed. Some are "squarer" or larger than others and the ears look different. And Portuondo is trying to standardize the breed in Cuba, so there must be some variance.
> Remember, the breed in Cuba was neglected for years and had to be "re-established" by Portuondo and others.


You are correct, but that's not what experienced breeders are looking at. These dogs all have straight legs. They have high head carriage and are bred to have high tail carriage as well. Just like here they may not all be perfect examples of the Cuban Standard, but they aren't like the American Havanese in so many many ways


----------



## irnfit

The problem I am having in understanding this is it sounds like they are talking out of both sides of their mouths. They want to breed the HSD to breed out the health problems. Oh no, it's because we want them to conform to the look of the Cuban dogs. Which is it? 
Greg said that "they" have been trying to get people to listen for 8 years.
Are we to believe that the current breeders of Havanese are not taking the health of their dogs seriously and purposely breeding deformed dogs? I don't think so and if I was a breeder, I would be very insulted.

I am not opposed to the HSD. But I agree with Kara. They will really have to separate the two breeds and not compare it to the Havanese. I also agree with Melissa. If you don't agree with the standard, how can you continue to show your dogs alongside the Havanese? 

I realize there is a lot to be worked out...Rome wasn't built in a day. I just think the way it was done is very offensive and you can't have it both ways.


----------



## Greg

Melissa Miller said:


> Greg,
> Thanks for posting Docs letter. And thank you for your information. I do give you kuddos for being strong in your stance even though a lot of people disagree with what is going on.
> 
> I suppose it seems to many to be an elite club and some make it and some dont. I have not had time to do the research to argue either point.
> 
> I do have one question, if you all are merely trying to seperate your breed since there are two obvious different Havs, then why continue to register as Havanese? Why continue to enter the show ring next to our Havanese who are not up to par to your standard? Will that not only continue to confuse Judges, breeders and buyers? Continuing to show the dogs side by side when your mission is to separate the breeds is not doing any favors to those who continue on with the Havanese as we know it. You said you are trying to adhere to the original Cuban standard, but plan on entering shows and registering dogs under AKC which has a different standard. Why would anyone with the HSD want to do that? If they win, it is saying they represent the breed the best under a standard you don't believe in. Or did I misunderstand that?
> 
> Someone doing research and trying to split off and do their own thing is perfectly ok. Great thing about the USA!  But I do think once your goals are completely different than that of the Association you belong to, you should walk away. Not try to keep mixing the dogs together when it is convenient.
> 
> Im glad we can all have a friendly debate even when we disagree here. I hope it stays that way.


actually there is very little difference in the two Standards. One is written to provide lots of wiggle room and one isn't. So my dogs fit both Standards much like a dog from Canada, bred to the Canadian standard can also show here and still fit in under the AKC Standard. We continue to show our dogs as Havanese becasue that's what they are registered with the AKC as. When the AKC recognizes them as a seperate breed we'll show them under the HSD breed.


----------



## Greg

TnTWalter said:


> WHY WHY WHY would anyone be breeding with the AZ gene if it's 'bad'....??
> 
> Wouldn't all reputable hav breeders not want this gene? So let's pretend that everyone wipes out the 'BAD" GENE, THAT WOULD BE BOTH HCA and HSA......now the difference is only looks?
> 
> So you can have 2 classes [kindof like black pekignese idea?] of the same breed?? But both are from good healthy stock?? Wouldn't you then start to get some non-comforming issues ....say a long snout on a HSA or silky hair on a HCA? What then?
> 
> Am I just really dense??
> 
> This affects me as a buyer because of course I want the healthiest dog I can have....but what is that?
> 
> OK....I swear that's the last out of me.....:brick:
> 
> Trish
> 
> :frusty:


I hope you keep asking questions because I appreciate your interest. Some breeders just don't think CD is a disease. They think it is a trait. And some breeders think these dogs SHOULD have bowed legs. Some breeders just don't care.

We can't protect the whole breed, but we can protect a portion of it. If you want a healthy dog, get one from someone who health tests and can provide you soaped pics of both parents. Otherwise look somewhere else


----------



## Greg

ama0722 said:


> So I am still kind of confused... weren't the arizona dogs, the costa rican dogs, and the cuban dogs all originally from cuba before they came to the US and were bred? Also were the cuban dogs really so similar looking in phenotype?
> Amanda


There is no evidence ANY of the dogs came from Cuba. Further, we believe one of the AZ dogs was not a "havanese."

The Cuban phenotype is different. Different enough to cause chaos in the breed for 10 yrs


----------



## Greg

irnfit said:


> Are we to believe that the current breeders of Havanese are not taking the health of their dogs seriously and purposely breeding deformed dogs? QUOTE]
> 
> yes. That's the plain truth.


----------



## abuelashavanese

Greg said:


> irnfit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are we to believe that the current breeders of Havanese are not taking the health of their dogs seriously and purposely breeding deformed dogs? QUOTE]
> 
> yes. That's the plain truth.
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that someone could even say this is sick and sad.
Click to expand...


----------



## Melissa Miller

Did this basically happen because ya'll were unsuccessful in eliminating the wiggle room in our current standard? If there is very little difference, I still wish it could have been resolved within the Havanese Community. None of us want health problems or CD or anything else. I can't believe a breeder would think that crooked legs are ok, thats nuts. What do they think when the dogs can't walk?

I do think our standard has too much wiggle room also, but not sure this was the answer. ( not sure meaning I don't have enough information) Its hard when you have Stogie who is almost 10.5 inches tall next to a dog who is barely tall enough. I think that is 8 inches if Im not mistaken. Stogie has stroger bones and some of the dogs look frail. Im not saying either is right or wrong, but it would be nice if their was more consistency. But hopefully it doesnt get to the point where they all look exactly alike and exactly the same color etc... I love those variations and think they make the Havs stand out. 

So Stogie has taller legs and a nice chest, but not a short muzzle. ( Not short compared to some of the stuffy ones I have seen, but not too long either. ) So would he fit into your club? And who has the final decision and what if that person didn't like you? 

Thanks for answering our questions. 
Melissa


----------



## Dawna

If current breeders, members of the HCA, aren't taking the health of their dogs seriously, they are seriously shooting themselves in the foot. 
If they aren't taking the bylaws of the organization seriously, they should be disciplined by that organization. Or what the heck, just start a new one.
Dawna


----------



## SMARTY

Novice Havanese owner question...Is the main problem that the non-show, non Havanese club members are breeding the problems? If that is the case then the Pandora's box is open and there is no stopping it.

OR

Is the problem that you have HCA members, show breeders, standing stud and breeding bitches that have produced these problems and ignor the problem, blame the other parent, etc?


----------



## irnfit

So, when youn tell usto research the breed and the breeder, that is all a waste of time because the breeders are not doing what they're supposed to? All the breeders? Except the ones involved with the HSD?!!


----------



## Olliesmom

One of the things that I continue to see is that we as a forum tend to forget there are tons of breeders out there that are not even involved with this wonderful forum and do NOT do health testing of any kind -or may do some or may just report the testing that the parents did well in. Some brag more about the "championship" in a bloodline. Others rope people in cause the puppies are cute - post pix that anyone would fall in love with and the pups are available right then...(heck...I did that - I was just lucky that the testing was there and I had found this forum only a day before I set up a time to look at Ollie)
In california I hear of breeders that I try to check out and I can't - no info - just for sale on the internet. I have had people stop me to find out what my dogs are - ask for breeders names and when I start talking about health testing they just say uh huh and move on to how cute they are and that they "want one". Even a friend of mine who I spent alot of time with went to the internet to look for a hav and picked a pup from the color and look of the pup - knew nothing of the breeder - fortunately I talked them out of it. Our breeders on this forum all seem to be the cream of the crop with the best interest of havanese in their heart. You can feel it in their writings and their passion and love of the breed. I don't think anyone could disagree that improving the health of the breed is first and most important and if this can help improve the chances of healthier dogs that would be wonderful. But it certainly doesn't mean that breeders who dogs are not all Cuban can't and don't have wonderful healthy dogs. Our wonderful breeders on this forum ALL strive for healthy pups and bettermeant of the breed and have worked hard to accomplish this. I for one think I may have one of each - maybe not, but boy they look different! I would not have done anything different. It is sad when good people get screwed by a breeder. My neighbor/best friend was a victim of exactly what I described above - saw a bulldog puppy on the internet - bought it ($2000) had it shipped from Texas. Took her to a not so good vet when I said she seemed to scoot rather than walk. Vet said all was fine - begged her to get an opinion from my vet and she did. Not only did she find out the the puppy needed BOTH knees and hips redone ($5000) but also he showed her a tatoo the meant she had been shipped from Russia (had to be at 6 weeks) and not even born in Texas. This poor pup had been shipped from Russia to Texas transported to California and could barely walk. They tried to get help from the breeder who said she would take it back and destroy her - but would not refund any of the $ to help with the surgery. They did the surgery and she is doing great. Filed a complaint and after many others did too the breeder was forced to close down -----for now. No breeder in this forum would ever have worked like that - but there are havanese breeders who would - so sad.

If in the future there is a split it really should not affect any responsible health conscience breeder - it would simply be a preference on their part as to what they want to breed. We are blessed to have so much knowledge and such passion here...we all learn so much.

OK, I rambled....


----------



## The Fussy Puppy Gang

Researching the breed and checking out the breeder are never a waste of time. If the breeder in question cannot or will not produce the documents in question, then it seems obvious that's not a breeder you'd want to buy from. 

So, regardless of whether they believe in the HSD faction or not, you want to buy from a breeder who cares enough to validate their breeding stock through the appropriate health checks.

This applies to ANY breed! 

Wanda


----------



## TnTWalter

*Thanks everyone for thoughtful responses....*

I have learned alot but I am plum WORN out.

:juggle:

op2:

:drama:

:lalala:

:deadhorse:

And finally...

:bolt:

Trish
[I love smileys]eace:


----------



## irnfit

Catherine, I wasn't talking about people who call themselves breeders, but just produce pups for a quick dollar. I was talking about all the breeders who are registered thru the different clubs that we are told we should be buying dogs from. These are the ones who are supposed to be giving us the healthiest dogs. But from Greg's remark, I guess we can trust no one to be a good breeder.


----------



## Thumper

Trish,

LOL.....

Its alot to digest, isn't it?


----------



## DAJsMom

"There is no evidence ANY of the dogs came from Cuba. Further, we believe one of the AZ dogs was not a "havanese." "

So there's no evidence any of the foundation stock of the havanese ever came from Cuba, but the goal is to use current havanese-who all descend from dogs who never were Cuban in the first place- to get back to the Cuban type of dog? I must be missing something. 

I hear two different arguments- one regarding the standard and one regarding health. Is it like buying a Chevrolet or a Honda? Two different styles. Everyone has their opinion about which is better.Some claim one is more reliable. Fact is, both are capable of stranding me by the side of the road. In addition, my Chevy is full of japanese and other foreign parts, and my Honda qualifies as American made. I'm not going to try and get somewhere with this crazy analogy by trying to turn the Chevy into a Honda!:fencing: 

I'm glad I'm not a breeder! I feel for all of you. What a frustrating situation to be in the middle of.

I hope this doesn't cure anyones' MHS!

Dusty has a very wavy chocolate coat (which this average pet owner is so far managing to maintain through the blowing coat stage without the services of a professional groomer), straight legs at age 15 months, and only five upper incisors, making her Cubizonan. She is fabulously smart and gives wonderful licks. I hope she stays at least as healthy as my kids, doesn't run into the street and get clobbered, doesn't get stolen or lost, and doesn't eat anything or get eaten by anything that will kill her! 

Today she needs a bath, so I think I'll head back over to the Grooming section...


----------



## Leeann

Someone quick get Trish a glass of wine before she looses it completely.


----------



## Olliesmom

Too funny...I think she already bolted from the look of her last smiley and ran to the fridge!!!


----------



## Greg

abuelashavanese said:


> Greg said:
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that someone could even say this is sick and sad.
> 
> 
> 
> I want to make sure I meant SOME breeders rather than all breeders. Lots and lots are very very good. Many are on this forum
Click to expand...


----------



## TnTWalter

*Never fear...*










:thumb:

Trish


----------



## Greg

SMARTY said:


> Novice Havanese owner question...Is the main problem that the non-show, non Havanese club members are breeding the problems? If that is the case then the Pandora's box is open and there is no stopping it.
> 
> OR
> 
> Is the problem that you have HCA members, show breeders, standing stud and breeding bitches that have produced these problems and ignor the problem, blame the other parent, etc?


It is really more of the first. 200 litters were registered in March. Most of those to puppy mills. There's no stopping the tidal wave. It's statistically insurmountable


----------



## Greg

irnfit said:


> So, when youn tell usto research the breed and the breeder, that is all a waste of time because the breeders are not doing what they're supposed to? All the breeders? Except the ones involved with the HSD?!!


When you research your breeder ask for soaped pics of the puppy and of the parents. if they cannot or will not provide them to you, don't buy.

YOu cannot be an HSD without soaped pics AND an evaluation. So HSDs by definition will not have CD. In the beginning dogs from HSDs that have curved legs or do not pass all their health tests or do not pass their evaluation will not be registered. Eventually we expect to get rid of CD however our registration process probably won't change


----------



## mckennasedona

Trish,

:biggrin1: 

It's all very mind boggling. I have appreciated all of your questions and all of the answers you've recieved.

Susan


----------



## Kathy

Greg,
I have also talked too and seen pictures of Cuban dogs owned by people in Canada and in Europe and they don't look like Diane's dogs. Like everyone else, this is all very confusing and honestly upsetting. It is like a small group of people suddenly decided that the standard THEY wrote is now wrong and are discrediting the breed as it is today. I agree, there are some breeders that happen to be HCA members that don't health test. However, the majority of them do. I suppose the one person that could clear a lot of this up would be Dorothy Goodale as far as dogs she used in her breeding program way back when.


----------



## Leeann

I have to give Kudos to Greg for putting up with all of us with our questions & Concerns. It looks like you have been on here all day and I'm sure we are not the only ones you are helping. Thanks


----------



## ama0722

I think I am most confused with is there really 2 different breeds at hand or is there just some disagreements to the HCA standard and how the health issues mix into that. I really think good breeders aren't going to breed havanese with CD whether they are a havanese or any other breed. I also like to think they aren't going to breed a dog with a bad heart, cataracts, hip dysplacia, etc.

I also am having trouble to think of a havanese without a double coat. I thought the havanese book I read said the double coat protected them from the cuban heat? Is the new breed suppose to have more of a coat like my maltese? Can a silky coat like that cord?

This is the page I looked at earlier with the cuban havanese. The third and the fifth dog look very different in body type to me but I am still confused as to which one would be a havanese and which one would be a HSD. http://www.bichoneshabaneros.com/habanero.htm

I love the idea of as much health testing as possible since we all want our beloved companions to live forever but there isn't a breed that doesn't have health problems. Also, unfortunetly backyard breeders and puppy mills seem to get their hands on all breeds and don't health test at all. Unfortunetly, I think that is always going to be a battle no matter what you call the breed. As soon as there is a demand, the dogs end up there 

Amanda


----------



## aradelat

*you've got it!!!*



ama0722 said:


> I think I am most confused with is there really 2 different breeds at hand or is there just some disagreements to the HCA standard and how the health issues mix into that. I really think good breeders aren't going to breed havanese with CD whether they are a havanese or any other breed. I also like to think they aren't going to breed a dog with a bad heart, cataracts, hip dysplacia, etc.
> 
> I also am having trouble to think of a havanese without a double coat. I thought the havanese book I read said the double coat protected them from the cuban heat? Is the new breed suppose to have more of a coat like my maltese? Can a silky coat like that cord?
> 
> This is the page I looked at earlier with the cuban havanese. The third and the fifth dog look very different in body type to me but I am still confused as to which one would be a havanese and which one would be a HSD. http://www.bichoneshabaneros.com/habanero.htm
> 
> I love the idea of as much health testing as possible since we all want our beloved companions to live forever but there isn't a breed that doesn't have health problems. Also, unfortunetly backyard breeders and puppy mills seem to get their hands on all breeds and don't health test at all. Unfortunetly, I think that is always going to be a battle no matter what you call the breed. As soon as there is a demand, the dogs end up there
> 
> Amanda


You've found the Web site of the founder of Cuba's Havanese Club. And you have noticed that even she -- Cuba's preeminent breeder -- breeds different types of dogs...


----------



## Thumper

Stop the presses!!!!!

Someone pass me a glass of wine!!!!!!:boom: 

:biggrin1: 
Kara


----------



## Julie

And the **** dog is a chocolate!How could that be?No chocolates are supposed to be registered in Cuba!:laugh:

The one looking out the gate........


----------



## Greg

In Cuba, one woman registers all the Havanese. It's her job. She doesn't register any with brown pigment..........lots of brown dogs with black pigment though. Lots of reds too. But no black pigment


----------



## Julie

I'm not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers here.......but basically on this forum.......Tom's dogs are havana silks and "right",Greg's dogs are havana silks and "right",and perhaps Shannon's dogs are havana silks and "right",perhaps Catherine's Austin is a havana silk and "right"......everyone else has what?Crappy havanese?:rant:


----------



## Greg

Kathy said:


> Greg,
> I have also talked too and seen pictures of Cuban dogs owned by people in Canada and in Europe and they don't look like Diane's dogs. Like everyone else, this is all very confusing and honestly upsetting. It is like a small group of people suddenly decided that the standard THEY wrote is now wrong and are discrediting the breed as it is today. I agree, there are some breeders that happen to be HCA members that don't health test. However, the majority of them do. I suppose the one person that could clear a lot of this up would be Dorothy Goodale as far as dogs she used in her breeding program way back when.


or you could ask Kay about the original registry.


----------



## Greg

Julie said:


> I'm not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers here.......but basically on this forum.......Tom's dogs are havana silks and "right",Greg's dogs are havana silks and "right",and perhaps Shannon's dogs are havana silks and "right",perhaps Catherine's Austin is a havana silk and "right"......everyone else has what?Crappy havanese?:rant:


when did Havanese become crappy?


----------



## Melissa Miller

Julie, 
I think only some of their dogs can be Havana Silk Dogs, the others they breed which are pet quality will be just plain ol Havanese I guess. Oh the power of options.


----------



## Julie

That is how this is feeling to me......It feels like we have been dupped.Having a havanese will be not much different then a malti-poo or some mutt.How do we know as a pet owner what we have,if you guys as breeders don't even know what the heck you have?
:frusty:


----------



## ama0722

Okay maybe I just don't have the eye for this at all and I am missing something? From looking at the cuban dogs, the dogs on the HSD breeders websites, to looking at some of the other breeders, I am still seeing a lot of variety in type, coat, structure. I think with some of the pictures on the HSD website, regular havanese breeders show what a soaped up dog with obvious CD looks like too, HCA has that information on their webpage too. 

I think anyone can see some havanese look different but to tell which ones would be what is likley more difficult? Also wouldn't soaped up photos be phenotype which can be deceiving and wouldn't be way more important to use genotype to decide a dog's breeding fate?

Amanda


----------



## Julie

Couldn't all the havanese members sit down and say,look.....there are some problems here..we need to stick to "type"-to "standard".If you do not breed to standard,this will reflect bad on you(it does).We will not let you show puppies and get champion in front of your dogs name till it is at least a year old,has grown enough to actually SEE if it fits within the standards set forth,has the correct muzzle,hair type,size,legs etc.This seems to be a huge problem to me......and I've never bred or showed a dog in my life.If you can run around a puppy enough,it'll evidentually get CH in front.This is wrong!


----------



## whitBmom

Yes, Amanda, HERE, HERE!! I saw the exact same thing and they are calling them the Cuban Bichon! So if that is what they want to accomplish, I honestly don't know what the big issue is if they already have it! Looking at the "Cuban" dogs, is no different than looking at what we currently have here in the US and Canada!  I don't see why they cannot continue to focus on betterment of the breed instead of all this bickering of who has the "true" dog - geez!!


----------



## Melissa Miller

Julie, Dont feel that way at ALL.

From their website:
The Havana Silk Dog, at this point, in time, is simply an unofficial "variety" of Havanese which has been certified by HSDAA as appropriately health-screened, phenotypically free of of chondrodysplasia, and conforming to the current AKC Havanese standard _as written_ to acceptable degree by physical evaluation using an objective written examination form.

Read the part that says "Unofficial Variety". Its just that. In the mean time the HCA will continue to grow and produce great dogs, Champions and Pets. The best thing you can do for Havanese is do what we do here and educate people on health testing. The breeders will keep doing their thing and breed out CD and ALL OTHER health problems. ( Not all Breeders will, but that would be in a perfect world and even the HSD is not going to be perfect.)

I say if they want to have their club and do their thing, GREAT! If they can breed out all health problems, even BETTER! As long as they don't sit in the Havanese Camp when convenient and in HSD other times.

For now its just a club, nothing else. So we all need to concentrate on the dogs we have.

Trust me these breeders all have produced dogs that would not fit into their new standard. Just as breeders now produce some dogs that are outside of the AKC standard. No one breeds the right dogs all the time, I don't care what they say.


----------



## abuelashavanese

Now let’s be fair here, HSD has not had time to figure out how they are going to tell the Cuban’s this yet. They have been way too busy working on the AMERICANS.


----------



## Dawna

I'm still scared to tell my dog that his momma was an american havanese. I don't know how he's going to take it.


----------



## Melissa Miller

Its kind of like we are in one big high school, and they are the Pink Ladies. They will wear cool jackets and have a name until they can get their own high school. In the mean time they do their thing, we do ours and occasionally people will bump into each other. It will be better than reality tv. The only difference is they are trying to breed out diseases while the Pink Ladies just sat around and smoked. 

Now when the Pink Ladies turn on each other, where will the cast offs turn? That will be the interesting question.


----------



## abuelashavanese

Dawna said:


> I'm still scared to tell my dog that his momma was an american havanese. I don't know how he's going to take it.


If he still has his valued jewels, you better keep him safe !


----------



## Julie

Melissa,
I agree,but it is like having your cake and eating it to!It is not fair to expect to register your dogs with AKC as a havanese(it's good then)but just until the havana silk can be registered,then well.....lets compete along side the havanese in the ring.......just for sh__s and giggles.....as they look so much different(it'll confuse the judges even more),then we can boist when we win,boo when we don't,but just until the HS is a breed all unto itself.I'd kick my kids hind-end for this!It's sad,wrong,and makes ya' mad!


----------



## ama0722

I guess I just keep thinking it sounds too idealistic in the health sense. I was talking to my friend at Berkley about it and she told me if you new all genes it would be great to take a small population of dogs, breed them and have healthy dogs that live old lives but she said unfortunetly that isn't how it works. She also said that as soon as you tend to do that with animals to breed against one problem with a small population, you come up with another. 

I guess I thought wow why haven't all of the AKC breeds with health problems done the same thing. Only taken one line without health problems and bred them. Apparently, it isn't as easy as it sounds. I just also can't help to think that maybe a lot of the cuban genotypes have CD in their background too or are they saying it came from the other breed of dog in Arizona? I know that some AKC breeds breed dogs with CD too.

Obviously, health research is extremely important. I think the best thing is for the good Havanese breeders to keep doing all the health research they can and breed to dogs that also have health research done. Obviously, genetics stills throws things back at you and breeders will adjust their lines to this.

Amanda


----------



## Olliesmom

Wow! Some of you must have researched your ancestry really quickly! I would have no idea if Ollie or Austin is cuban or what! Frankly I just love em both - not breeding and just want them to be healthy! And I ditto Greg's last comment!! Who says Havanese are crappy!!!! They are wonderful!! Oh no wait - they are MORE than wonderful!! They are...without a doubt....THE BEST!!


----------



## Dawna

It would be just like trying to breed a line of people with no health problems, Amanda. You're right, it ain't gonna happen. 

That is such a valid point and many people agree with you, Julie.

No jewels, Jonda. That's a whole other can of worms. lol


----------



## Julie

Catherine-
Of course havanese are wonderful!I was being a smart a--eace:


----------



## whitBmom

Kara quoted the puppy buyers page statement that clearly said that the HSD was more "elegant" than the Hav - now that is just silly!! Come ON!! I really love that one!! uke: :rant:  

If that isn't a pitch for SALES I don't know what it is!!


----------



## abuelashavanese

If, all they were doing is creating their own "Unofficial Variety" that would be one thing, but that is not what is going on here.

They are trying to take the identity of our HAVANESE and their history. 

Havanese dogs are of the Bichon family and may be referred to as the Bichon Havanese or as the Havana Silk Dog and Habenoros in Spanish . Havanese dogs go back to Plinius (23 to 79 B.C.). The earliest references to the ancestors of the modern line are in the Mediterranean region, on the island of Malta, and the breed may have originated there.


----------



## Julie

Isn't it something that a "havana silk" is put to you as something "more and wonderful" then a havanese.....but the funny part is......last week I was selling havanese.......aren't they great?This week,I'm selling Havana Silks?Assinine.........
Same breeder/Same pups


----------



## Greg

Melissa Miller said:


> Trust me these breeders all have produced dogs that would not fit into their new standard. Just as breeders now produce some dogs that are outside of the AKC standard. No one breeds the right dogs all the time, I don't care what they say.


And that's where you are wrong. I've not bred a dog that couldn't be an HSD. Not one.

I've never in my life bred a dog that was outside the Standard. Not one.

However, every dog I've bred has looked different than the majority of Havanese. Heck, sitting at the bar last year in Richmond a friend of mine who is on this list and is a very very good breeder told me she didn't like Charly dogs. We agreed to disagree.

And now we've decided to stop disagreeing and just move on. No hard feelings. Nobody here has to make any choices. Very few even breed. Those that do don't even have to choose if they don't want to.


----------



## Greg

Dawna said:


> I'm still scared to tell my dog that his momma was an american havanese. I don't know how he's going to take it.


you can tell him his momma is an HSD as well as a Havanese.


----------



## Greg

whitBmom said:


> I don't see why they cannot continue to focus on betterment of the breed instead of all this bickering of who has the "true" dog - geez!!


We aren't bickering about this. We don't even care if Havanese people think they are the original dog of Cuba. The facts stand for themselves. Dorothy interbred at least 2 different breeds to come up with the Havanese. We are just choosing to go back to one of the original dogs, the ones who represented the original dog of cuba.

Just like what is going on in the Irish Setter community. Just like with Norwich and Norfolk Terriers, just like with Jack Russels and Parsons Russels terriers, just like with soft coated wheatons..........just like lots of other breeds. It happens all the time. Nobody here is trying to take down the HCA or make them change anything. They can keep on with business as usual.


----------



## ama0722

okay maybe I am completely confused with reading all the standards but wouldn't a black dog be out of the standard of the HSD? 


> COLOR: Rarely completely pure white, light or dark tan, havane, gray, or white largely marked with specified colors.


Amanda


----------



## Greg

Julie said:


> Isn't it something that a "havana silk" is put to you as something "more and wonderful" then a havanese.....but the funny part is......last week I was selling havanese.......aren't they great?This week,I'm selling Havana Silks?Assinine.........
> Same breeder/Same pups


I never said it was more wonderful than a havanese. I said I prefer my dogs to the others.


----------



## Greg

Dawna said:


> It would be just like trying to breed a line of people with no health problems, Amanda. You're right, it ain't gonna happen.
> 
> That is such a valid point and many people agree with you, Julie.
> 
> No jewels, Jonda. That's a whole other can of worms. lol


Dawna,

we never said no health problems. We said no CD. By saying no to CD we get to move past those other health problems that were proven to congregate with CD. And guess what, it's already been happening. There are breeders even on this list who have bred 5 generations of straight legs and healthy dogs. 5 generations. interestingly they did this outside of any clique. They just new animals and understood conformation and health and selected away from the beginning. Interestingly, when they learned about dog shows their dogs looked like mine.........because someone else (D) had been selecting away in a different state for a similar number of years.

I would have considered staying if the HCA could have done anything to enforce their own standard and enhance the health of the breed. Sadly, many of them just turn a blind eye


----------



## Greg

ama0722 said:


> okay maybe I am completely confused with reading all the standards but wouldn't a black dog be out of the standard of the HSD?
> 
> Amanda


yes you are. neither the 63 nor the cuban mention color other than Color: The predominant colors are white black, and beige and any combination thereof


----------



## Dawna

That's a really strong statement to make on a public forum, Greg. 
You've never bred a dog that went out of the standard. In your life.


----------



## ama0722

Okay I took that color posting from the HSD site are they saying that isn't what you want?


> COLOR: Rarely completely pure white, light or dark tan, havane, gray, or white largely marked with specified colors.


It is on the 1963 FCI standard and the cuban stud book? It is written on the bottom of this page. 
http://havanasilkdog.com/thearizonaconundrum.html

Amanda


----------



## Julie

Greg,
I wasn't singling you out in my post........I'm sure you do prefer your own dogs to others....
Maybe you should reconsider getting any of those Cuban dogs...at least the ones on the site Amanda posted.....your dogs look better then they do already.Are you trying to get some Cuban dogs?


----------



## TnTWalter

*This is where it really irritates me...*



Greg said:


> you can tell him his momma is an HSD as well as a Havanese.


And Greg you are a trooper!!eace: eace:

But come on ?????????????????????????????

Trish


----------



## Greg

TnTWalter said:


> And Greg you are a trooper!!eace: eace:
> 
> But come on ?????????????????????????????
> 
> Trish


I posted that because I own his momma. I'm sorry if it came out mean though


----------



## Greg

Dawna said:


> That's a really strong statement to make on a public forum, Greg.
> You've never bred a dog that went out of the standard. In your life.


That is a strong statement. And I meant it. Keep in mind the Standard says scissors bite is ideal. Full complement of incisors preferred. It doesn't say a reverse scissors or even bite is a fault or a DQ. And it doesn't say the inscissors have to be all evenly placed in the mouth.

I didn't say everything I've bred was a show dog. And no dog I've bred was perfect.........


----------



## Greg

Julie said:


> Greg,
> I wasn't singling you out in my post........I'm sure you do prefer your own dogs to others....
> Maybe you should reconsider getting any of those Cuban dogs...at least the ones on the site Amanda posted.....your dogs look better then they do already.Are you trying to get some Cuban dogs?


Nah, the devil you know is better than the devil you don't. I like my dogs the way they are and have enough things to improve that I don't need to bring in new blood like that.


----------



## mckennasedona

Question: Aren't those puppies who don't meet standard sold as "pet" quality? Does that mean no one will sell any pet Havana Silks on limited registrations? I'm rather glad I have a Hav who is slightly taller than standard and one whose bite was off as a pup. If those things hadn't occured, I likely wouldn't have them unless I had agreed to show them. They can't all be perfect but they are all keepers.

Susan


----------



## Greg

ama0722 said:


> Okay I took that color posting from the HSD site are they saying that isn't what you want?
> 
> It is on the 1963 FCI standard and the cuban stud book? It is written on the bottom of this page.
> http://havanasilkdog.com/thearizonaconundrum.html
> 
> Amanda


yeah my bad you were quoting the 63.


----------



## Julie

Are you Greg,going to try to get some dogs from Cuba?Do they do all the testing?


----------



## Julie

our posts crossed.........


----------



## Greg

mckennasedona said:


> Question: Aren't those puppies who don't meet standard sold as "pet" quality? Does that mean no one will sell any pet Havana Silks on limited registrations? I'm rather glad I have a Hav who is slightly taller than standard and one whose bite was off as a pup. If those things hadn't occured, I likely wouldn't have them unless I had agreed to show them. They can't all be perfect but they are all keepers.
> 
> Susan


I don't see it as outside the Standard as much as not having enough of the complete package to keep in the gene pool. Now size can be a DQ (outside the standard) as can pigmentation. But there isn't a DQ for bite, we just select away from it because you really can't show it successfully and don't want to keep it in the gene pool either.

On the other side I've sold lots of dogs that could have earned championships as pets. I think I've actually only sold 6 as show dogs and I was only wrong on one of them. I feel bad about that too and will make that right by them one day.


----------



## Julie

I have another question......
how many other breeders are there on board with Diane,Doc,Tom(I assume) and you?

Are you going to breed havanese too?Havana silks and Havanese?I guess a breeder couldn't really go wrong like that,now that I think about it.


----------



## Greg

Julie said:


> Are you Greg,going to try to get some dogs from Cuba?Do they do all the testing?


They don't have the ability to do all the testing we do. But dogs with health problems tend to die young because they are too poor to spend valuable money on sick dogs. Just showing a dog in Cuba is a huge risk. Vaccines can cost as much as 1-3 months salary. and if the dog isn't vaccinated it usually remains indoors for its entire life. that's why the HCA cuban relief is SO IMPORTANT. This year my sister-in-law is again getting a huge box of vaccines down to the breeders in Cuba. Thanks Doc for helping get the vaccines donated.

Plus just because they are Cuban dogs doesn't make them good dogs. They still need to be bred correctly and be sound. I think I'll let others take that risk and see how it works for them. my sister-in-law has one of the most beautiful Havanese in the world. He's half Cuban. People are using him for stud right now and I'm watching the litters to see how they turn out.


----------



## Melissa Miller

I havent seen Toms name on any of those lists. He has kept quiet so far, but I wouldn't lump them in there just yet.


----------



## mckennasedona

That makes sense. I suppose most breeders sell show quality puppies as pets if the match is right.


----------



## ama0722

Greg,
I think you are confusing me even more <BG> So according to the 1963 FCI, I don't see anything about a black nor chocolate, havanese? Is the 1963 FCI the standard for the new HSD as shown on the website?

Amanda


----------



## Greg

Julie said:


> I have another question......
> how many other breeders are there on board with Diane,Doc,Tom(I assume) and you?
> 
> Are you going to breed havanese too?Havana silks and Havanese?I guess a breeder couldn't really go wrong like that,now that I think about it.


Since Tom hasn't voiced an opinion I wouldn't lump him into the same group. That's his decision to make but either way he and Pam are some of the finest dog breeders in the country.

We currently have almost 100 members and that doesn't include all the applications that have come in during the last couple of days.

Keep in mind there are several types of registrations in the HSD. Only 3 of my dogs have full registration. 1 is provisional because she isn't old enough to finish health testing or be evaluated. I'll show in the Havanese ring until I can't. And since the HSDAA is just a registry at the moment I'll dual register my dogs. The owners can decide what they want to call them. And since the membership as well as dogs are kept unpublished, people can be a part of the HSDAA without worrying about repercussions.


----------



## Greg

ama0722 said:


> Greg,
> I think you are confusing me even more <BG> So according to the 1963 FCI, I don't see anything about a black nor chocolate, havanese? Is the 1963 FCI the standard for the new HSD as shown on the website?
> 
> Amanda


you aren't confused. It was my mistake. The 63 does say what you posted. The Cuban includes black. We will include black because we can't just use the 63 as it doesn't address enough to satisfy the AKC. Including black may seem self serving (most of my dogs are black) but I think we can make that decision and still be true to the original dog of cuba. If the HSDAA decided not to include black, I'd start over with other colors for HSDs and show my blacks as Havanese which they are.


----------



## Julie

That is interesting....I hadn't thought of all the health issues one could have there in Cuba.American dogs,as a whole,would be much healthier....though you would think Cuba would want to "save"it's own breed,you know?

How do you really know Dorothy Goodale mixed another dog in there?She would be trying to save the breed......and it seems like that would "go against" what she was fighting for.I think she could have gotten some "poorer quality"ones,but given that was all she had to work with,it seems like an in-justice to do this to this lady,for it not for her,the breed wouldn't exist at all.Right?


----------



## dboudreau

Greg said:


> And since the membership as well as dogs are kept unpublished, people can be a part of the HSDAA without worrying about repercussions.


If this information is not availabe to the public, how can people who want a HSD find one? Just by referral?


----------



## Greg

dboudreau said:


> If this information is not availabe to the public, how can people who want a HSD find one? Just by referral?


I've gone public


----------



## Dawna

So then I guess anyone could tell a prospective puppy buyer that they are a member of the HSDAA. _Since the membership and dogs are kept unpublished_.


----------



## Greg

Julie said:


> How do you really know Dorothy Goodale mixed another dog in there?She would be trying to save the breed....QUOTE]
> 
> Great question and I'm glad you asked. In her interview in Our Havanese she states that one group of dogs was small. One group had short front legs that tended to be a little round with wide fronts (sound familiar?). All had heads where the muzzle was equal in length to the head. Only the group of larger dogs had 6/6 bites. When I read this it fit with exactly what Diane was saying about the AZ Conundrum.
> 
> I've learned information that on its own doesn't merit much more than a sigh. But when taken together with everything else I've learned about the Havanese it became much more interesting. This is just more trivia but it makes you sit up and say huh??? Such as:
> 
> I learned that Dorothy only bred her AZ dogs to her CR dogs once. After that she sold all her AZ dogs. Now why would someone who was trying to "save the breed" get rid of breeding stock she'd had since they were puppies? And when she sold them she did so with a "puppy back" contract but when she got those puppies back, she didn't keep them. Why again?
> 
> I learned that Dorothy bred Soft Coated Wheaten Terriers until 1973 when they were admitted into the AKC. Sound familiar? In 1974 she started up with havanese and stayed until THEY were admitted to the AKC. I also learned that a group of SCWT breeders went to Ireland to bring new blood back into their lines but when they got there they found a different dog. Now the SCWTCA is on the verge of splitting because half of them think Dorothy interbred her SCWT with something else and that's why it isn't similar to the ones found in Ireland (country of origin), Sound familiar? In fact within the SCWTCA her name isn't highly regarded.
> 
> I learned that dogs with a higher percentage of Rags Girl are more likely to have problems. I also learned there wasn't a chocolate Havanese recorded until her Dam. In Cuba they still don't register dogs with brown pigment as Chocolate. They call them poodles.
> 
> I believe that things like these, when taken together give credibility to the notion that the HSD was only one of the types of dogs that make up the Havanese gene pool, and Dorothy thought so too!


----------



## mckennasedona

Dumb question.....after the hulabaloo dies down why would someone NOT want it to be known that they are a part of the HSDAA?


----------



## Greg

Dawna said:


> So then I guess anyone could tell a prospective puppy buyer that they are a member of the HSDAA. _Since the membership and dogs are kept unpublished_.


they'd have a hard time producing an HSDAA registration certificate. And if they wanted to sell HSDs why would they hide? Maybe because they don't want the rest of the world to give them a hard time?


----------



## TnTWalter

*Are you serious?*



Greg said:


> you aren't confused. It was my mistake. The 63 does say what you posted. The Cuban includes black. We will include black because we can't just use the 63 as it doesn't address enough to satisfy the AKC. Including black may seem self serving (most of my dogs are black) but I think we can make that decision and still be true to the original dog of cuba. If the HSDAA decided not to include black, I'd start over with other colors for HSDs and show my blacks as Havanese which they are.


How can you say that you can include a color they EXCLUDEDand still be TRUE the original dog? You are really comfortable with this decision? Couldn't you just have labeled yourself as having far superious havanese?

*So they call brown hav dogs in cuba poodles? what do they call the black ones?*

Trish


----------



## Greg

TnTWalter said:


> How can you say that you can include a color they EXCLUDEDand still be TRUE the original dog? You are really comfortable with this decision? Couldn't you just have labeled yourself as having far superious havanese?
> 
> Trish


did you read my entire post? I said if it was decided that black wasn't true to the breed I'd keep them as havanese and start over with a different color.


----------



## Dawna

I know that bite isn't a dq. I've read the standard a few times now.
I wasn't talking about bite. Scissors or otherwise.


----------



## Greg

mckennasedona said:


> Dumb question.....after the hulabaloo dies down why would someone NOT want it to be known that they are a part of the HSDAA?


I think there will be a stigma for a long time. But I think the effort is a noble one and it's a stigma I'm willing to endure


----------



## mckennasedona

One more question, how do we find out just what our dogs' ancestries consist of? I'd be curious because I am interested in family trees anyway. 
Yes, I could call my breeder but I'm pretty sure that being in California, they are tied up with fighting potential anti-breeding legislation AND this new bombshell, for lack of a better word. Does the Havanese Galleria go back far enough for one to find out?


----------



## mckennasedona

Greg, I have got to give you credit! You've stayed on this board for a long time today answering questions. Agree or disagree with your stance, I've got to admire you for putting yourself out there on a limb. Too bad you seem to be doing it alone.

Susan - calling it quits for the night and taking my Havs to bed!


----------



## whitBmom

Susan that is an excellent question. I have Oreo's family tree, and I am equally fascinated in finding out my Oreo's gene pool. I love him regardless, but just to satisfy my curiousity how would I go about doing that?


----------



## Julie

Well,it seems like that is pointing in her direction......however for 45 yrs.or so....no one had a clue or what?I want to see the breed protected...the real havanese.....but all breeds seem to evolve over time.I just watched a dog show from Crufts......they had some different dogs,and some that didn't look like our American versions.Why isn't that ok?If the fit within the guidelines?


----------



## whitBmom

Greg I agree, you are doing it alone tonight. I give you props for that.


----------



## DAJsMom

Yes, Thanks Greg. I don't know if I agree with you about some of this, but thank you for answering all these questions. We appreciate it!


----------



## TnTWalter

*Yes I read yours...*



Greg said:


> did you read my entire post? I said if it was decided that black wasn't true to the breed I'd keep them as havanese and start over with a different color.


Did you read mine?

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I think it's sad Greg has had to go it alone.

Trish


----------



## Greg

mckennasedona said:


> One more question, how do we find out just what our dogs' ancestries consist of? I'd be curious because I am interested in family trees anyway.
> Yes, I could call my breeder but I'm pretty sure that being in California, they are tied up with fighting potential anti-breeding legislation AND this new bombshell, for lack of a better word. Does the Havanese Galleria go back far enough for one to find out?


Actually the Havanese Gallery isn't as accurate as it needs to be. I only found this out this weekend when I spoke at length to the former registrar for the HCA (back in Dorothy's day). Apparently some people have just filled in dogs names in places. But it's accurate enough to use as a guideline.


----------



## Greg

TnTWalter said:


> *So they call brown hav dogs in cuba poodles? what do they call the black ones?*
> 
> Trish


Habaneros


----------



## ama0722

I agree thanks greg for explaining a lot of your views even if they don't seem popular! I can definetly see you are very passionate about your dogs and have a lot of knowledge about the havanese breed. I definetly don't think I know the right answers but my spayed little girl doesn't like the hot sun anyways!

If anything, we are all learning a lot especially as pet owners. I find all the genetics and health testing fascinating and really hope the havanese breeders keep up with the health testing. The history is really interesting too when you hear about all the possible uses for the dogs, etc. 

I think I just have a lot of questions about whether there are 2 breeds or even more so it has been interesting to read many breeder's websites and even cuban websites. I mean the black coloring would have gotten in there with the brown poodle too at some point since 1963 too. I also am still confused on a havanese will cord, but now the HSD won't cord.

I also have another dog from malta so maybe Belle & Dora are closer related than I thought!
Amanda


----------



## TnTWalter

*Now....Habaneros!!!*

That's a catchy sounding breed!!!!eace:

Trish


----------



## Dawna

Um what? The havana silk dog isn't supposed to CORD?????
The contradictions are really ironic here.


----------



## Greg

Dawna said:


> Um what? The havana silk dog isn't supposed to CORD?????
> The contradictions are really ironic here.


You are going to have to show me where it says the HSD doesn't cord before I can decide if we have ironic contradictions


----------



## Greg

good night all. How bout we do this privately tomorrow? I seem to be upsetting some and I really don't want to.


----------



## Julie

Greg,
Where did you get your havs from?Your breeding pairs?

Where and how do we find out if our dogs have the Az.gene thing in them?My guy has good legs,perfect bite,no cd,but I assume,you can't assume that nothing will crop up,so I would like to know if my guy is at "risk"or not.


----------



## Havtahava

Susan, forgive me for jumping in this late. It's been a pretty ugly day here (between graduation, family visits, in-law bickering and two bits of bad news from dental visits), but I'm here for a moment.

Have you registered either of your girls over at the Havanese Gallery? Greg already pointed out that it isn't always accurate, but with McKenna and Sedona, you'll find fairly accurate pedigrees that go back up to nine generations, if you are interested. I'll help you more if you need it. (I'm just getting ready for Britt's graduation and a two-week road trip, and Rigatoni going home tomorrow, but I'll do what I can to get the info you want.)


----------



## KristinFusco

Hi Amanda!

In regards to the genetics issue and your friend at Berkeley, she is right, even with a small population of genes where you have completely identified all of the functions, a recessive mutation can still pop up in the F1 generation (ie the offspring) due to the fact that every individual has a "mutation" every 1000 base pairs or so. I wasn't saying that there isn't a chance for another recessive mutation to pop up, I am just saying that when you completely characterize genes, you have a better understanding of what you are dealing with, and less of a chance of breeding a "bad" mutation. But that is true in any population. In the global sense (ie humans) it is better to have genetic diversity because it creates less of a chance of those recessive genes coming up. 

But, we are talking purebred dogs here. People have already, whether they like it or not, acted as genetic engineers and selected the dogs with the traits they desired for breeding to such an extent that the gene pool is very concentrated. That is the angle I was approaching it from. 

~Kristin


----------



## jillnors2

*Questions for Greg*

Hi Greg,
I'm new to Havanese (I have one rescue who I adore) and have a couple questions for you. I do subsribe to OUR Havanese and read Dorothy Goodale's article.

1.What significance does the six six bite have? I've seen it mentioned several times.

2. What traits (besides coat and being free of CD) do the HSD pocess that are different from the American Havanese? Are they larger, smaller, longer coats, longer necks, shorter necks? I looked at the HSD website and am confused.

3. I do not understand why members of the HSDAA would hide, all should be public if that's what they believe in.

Thanks in advance!
Jill


----------



## KristinFusco

One last thing Amanda,

I also wanted to say that recessive mutations aren't always bad. In fact, they can be very beneficial in an evolutionary sense. However, when we approach genetics from a breeding perspective, we are trying to eliminate huge "differences" between dogs of the same breed to maintain the "standard". There are different groups of people who have had that approach over the years for humans as well, mostly for religious or cultural reasons (the Amish come to mind). That is the reason that conventional genetics like the ones your friends studies at Berkeley and what I study at UPENN don't always apply in the dog world in the sense that what is good evolutionarily for people (diversity, a variety of genes etc) isn't good in the dog world. So instead, we try to do the best we can with the genes we have for the Havanese. As new mutations arise, AND THEY WILL, I WAS NEVER SAYING THEY WOULDN'T!!!!!!!, we have to "combat" them by understanding the genome and how it affects the phenotype and trying not to spread those mutations that affect it negatively through selective breeding.


----------



## Sunnygirl

I have a question for Greg. By way of background, my little guy is brand new (just got him this week) and is a pet only - he's on limited registration, will be neutered and won't be shown. Other than for purposes of educating myself on what the different "types" are, I don't care if he is or has the potential to be a HSD, because he's just a great companion for me. However, if he's got Keebler as his paternal grandsire, Charly as grandsire of both of his sire's parents and Charly as his maternal grandsire, would that mean that he's more the HSD type than the Arizona type, or can you not tell by just that?


----------



## Rita

Wow. I am off line a day or two and things happen. I need a glass of wine just to look through this thread. LOL

OK. I can say I do see extreme difference across the Havanese breed just as a pet owner. My sister in laws Hav looks more like a Bichon with very, very tight curls in a puppy cut (even if it grows out it is more like an extreme wavy hair). My guy has straight hair. If you put the two of them together, no one would believe they are the same breed.

They are not "show dogs" and I can see where there is a big problem if the standard isn't specific, especially in the ring.

We all want healthy dogs and for the breed to continue on for generations and generations. I think if you go off and start a different breed 10 years down the road you are going to have the same problem. Many different looking HSD. Let's face it. The big problem is unethical breeders and puppymills. Until you stop them, you are never going to have alot of dogs that fit the standards . Maybe in the show ring but not for the entire population.

I will say it again. Your hairdresser has to have a license but many states do not require breeder licenses or enforce them. That's crazy.

I think the problem of dogs not looking as how they were originally meant to look is not only a Hav problem but a problem throughout the entire AKC breeds. Too many people just do it for the $ with no knowledge. Don't even get me started on how they "tea cup size" any breed just because you can fit them in a cute bag. It has to be stopped.

In short, I believe that only by stopping unethical breeders and puppy mills, will you have more healthy dogs out in the general population that confirm to the original standards. Until this is done, starting to breed a small group back to the standards will be useless.


----------



## ama0722

Kristin-Thanks for the additional information. I was really just trying to make sense of it because everything sounds great but then I was like wait why haven't all breeds just gotten rid of health problems by starting with just healthy specimen now and not the dogs that were used to start the specimen (then I thought wait this is wht they are really trying to do?). It was really interesting to read about populations that were inbreed and results though. I talked about it quite a bit more last night obviously too because I was really curious how one could produce a genetic super dog. My friend told me that with dogs being completely domesticated, it really is more of a gamble- you do some research and you use what you know about the breed. She said if you threw dogs out in the wild for years, you would have way better gambling odds and I thought that was interesting. Obviously that isn't going to happen but I never thought of it. It made more sense when she said feild mice who are picked up and thrown into cages usually live longer than lab mice let alone if you reverse where you throw them. I also have a friend who has a rehomed beagle that was bred in a lab facility. She said they hare often used for animal testing and so much of their data is already known but they still have lots of health problems.

Other than it seems like all we can do is give money for testing and support the good breeders of havanese by purchasing their of puppies.

Greg- as to the double coat for cording, I am taking the HSD website to read that the Arizona line is what produced the coat? It is saying that the HCA standard was drastically changed to a double coat in 1989. So I would assume by that the only corded havanse could be from the AZ blood line? I really thought you had to have a double coat to cord or at least a curly coat to cord (I know poodles can cord and they have a single coat) but is there any other single coated breed that cords?

Amanda


----------



## mckennasedona

> I'll help you more if you need it


Thank you Kimberly, I would appreciate help but only AFTER you get through everything you've got going including your upcoming road trip.
I have not registered the girls on the gallery. I did look up one of Sedona's littermates but I'm not sure I really know what I'm looking at there. I'm curious but not rabid about it so at some point I'd love your help in figuring all this out.

Susan
PS -- I can relate to dental issues. I just had two new crowns done and each visit it took my dentist an hour to remove the old one! Ouch!!


----------



## Havtahava

OK, sounds good. All you need for registering the girls is to pull out their exact AKC registered names and the names of both parents. The Gallery will do the rest, especially since I'm pretty sure that both of your girls already have all of their family in there.
(And egads to your crown situation! Yuck!)


----------



## Julie

[Remember, the breed in Cuba was neglected for years and had to be "re-established" by Portuondo and others.[/QUOTE]
maybe that is where the "mix" came in.........?Not by Goodale,but by Portuondo....maybe you are trying to get a more "Cuban -looking" dog that isn't really correct-historically.It's a thought........


----------



## Julie

I know you were not addressing me Kimberly--------but thanks......I guess I can share your information.What are all these people hand-picked or what?Everyone on here(lots)seem to be attached ?


----------



## Julie

I can trace back Quincy's pedigree 7 generations......it didn't automatically give it to me,in the gallery---I had to go to the websites of the dogs posted,but 7 generations isn't enough right?

He is a grandson of CH Los Perritos Wee Pantaloons ROMX
He is a grandson of BIS AM/INTLCH West Creek Hot Shot Tapscott ROMX

what does the ROMX stand for?


----------



## abuelashavanese

Julie said:


> I can trace back Quincy's pedigree 7 generations......it didn't automatically give it to me,in the gallery---I had to go to the websites of the dogs posted,but 7 generations isn't enough right?
> 
> He is a grandson of CH Los Perritos Wee Pantaloons ROMX
> He is a grandson of BIS AM/INTLCH West Creek Hot Shot Tapscott ROMX
> 
> what does the ROMX stand for?


Oh my, he's grandsire is "PAN"

OFA Champion of Health Pan 
________________________________________

This month the OFA is pleased to feature another top Havanese as our Champion of Health, Ch. Los Perritos Wee Pantaloons, ROMX. Pan is bred and owned by Lynn Nieto. In addition to being the top Havanese in 2001 and 2002 with multiple group wins and placements, his most important contribution has been as a sire. Pan is the top producing Havanese in breed history with over 100 champion offspring including the #1 Havanese in 2006 as well as Westminster and Havanese Club of America Best of Breed winners. In addition, Pan has met the Havanese Club of America's CHIC requirements for health screening as have over 20 of his offspring.

Pan, Ch Los Perritos Wee Pantaloons, ROMX
HAV-212G55M- PI HIPS 
HAV-EL50M55- PI ELBOW
HAV-BR92/56M- PI BAER
HAV-PA199/55M/ P-PI PATELLA
HAV-LP95/55M- PI LEGG-CALVE-PERTHES
HV-799 CERF
HAV-CA329/86M/ C-PI CARDIAC
CHIC 16112​


----------



## Julie

Yep.....that's Quincy's Grandpa......however many greats I need,I don't know....but the other Grandpa was impressive too;West Creek Hot Shot Tapscott .....from their website:the only dog in the history of the breed to have ever won an all breed best in show,NO.1 HAVANESE in 1998,1999,dog of the year 2 years running ROM,multiple group winner.There seems to be quite a few impressive dogs in his pedigree.......but especially these guys.That makes me feel good,(I bought him not knowing this ahead of time).I just knew he was health tested and came from the show world/good breeders.
Thanks Jonda!


----------



## Greg

jillnors2 said:


> Hi Greg,
> I'm new to Havanese (I have one rescue who I adore) and have a couple questions for you. I do subsribe to OUR Havanese and read Dorothy Goodale's article.
> 
> 1.What significance does the six six bite have? I've seen it mentioned several times.
> 
> 2. What traits (besides coat and being free of CD) do the HSD pocess that are different from the American Havanese? Are they larger, smaller, longer coats, longer necks, shorter necks? I looked at the HSD website and am confused.
> 
> 3. I do not understand why members of the HSDAA would hide, all should be public if that's what they believe in.
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> Jill


Terrific questions and I'll try to answer them.

1. A 6/6 bite means the inscissors come together properly. It also means all the inscissors are present. Very few toy breeds actually count teeth. That's because as small breeds evolve they have larger teeth in smaller mouths. Those dogs with larger heads have more room for teeth as well. HSDs typically have teeth issues. My stud has a 6/5. We found her statement interesting because she pointed out differences in her breeding stock that we still see today.

2. HSDs are different with significant differences in coat (single coated vs double coated), size, proportion (HSDs tend to be equal when measuring from head/neck, body, legs/feet), skeletal structure (HSDs are smaller boned), substance, eye shape (HSDs have almond shaped eye lids), topline, ear size (HSDs have smaller ear leather), ear set (HSDs ears are set higher), tail set (HSDs have a lower tail set), tail carriage (HSDs carry their tails above their backs and not ON their backs), and muzzle length (HSDs have muzzles that are at a ratio of 3:4 when measuring from nose to stop and then stop to occiput).

3. Many have not come out because of the mass condemnation heaped upon those of us who have. Nobody should have to take this type of abuse. So I don't mind that some are remaining quiet.


----------



## Greg

Sunnygirl said:


> I have a question for Greg. By way of background, my little guy is brand new (just got him this week) and is a pet only - he's on limited registration, will be neutered and won't be shown. Other than for purposes of educating myself on what the different "types" are, I don't care if he is or has the potential to be a HSD, because he's just a great companion for me. However, if he's got Keebler as his paternal grandsire, Charly as grandsire of both of his sire's parents and Charly as his maternal grandsire, would that mean that he's more the HSD type than the Arizona type, or can you not tell by just that?


This is going to come as a surprise to many people. Dogs aren't given full registration in the HSDAA based upon pedigree. Every dog must get in on its own merits. Each dog is physically evaluated at 2 yrs of age and must demonstrate HSD breed type and have passed all their health tests. This last part is important because with the HCA you don't have to pass your test to get certified with CHIC. Also, the dog must demonstrate it does not have curved front legs. We hope in a few generations we'll have bred curved legs out of our gene pool.


----------



## Olliesmom

Where do we find the Havanese Gallery that is being written about???

THX!!


----------



## Greg

Rita said:


> Wow. I am off line a day or two and things happen. I need a glass of wine just to look through this thread. LOL
> 
> OK. I can say I do see extreme difference across the Havanese breed just as a pet owner. My sister in laws Hav looks more like a Bichon with very, very tight curls in a puppy cut (even if it grows out it is more like an extreme wavy hair). My guy has straight hair. If you put the two of them together, no one would believe they are the same breed.
> 
> They are not "show dogs" and I can see where there is a big problem if the standard isn't specific, especially in the ring.
> 
> We all want healthy dogs and for the breed to continue on for generations and generations. I think if you go off and start a different breed 10 years down the road you are going to have the same problem. Many different looking HSD. Let's face it. The big problem is unethical breeders and puppymills. Until you stop them, you are never going to have alot of dogs that fit the standards . Maybe in the show ring but not for the entire population.
> 
> I will say it again. Your hairdresser has to have a license but many states do not require breeder licenses or enforce them. That's crazy.
> 
> I think the problem of dogs not looking as how they were originally meant to look is not only a Hav problem but a problem throughout the entire AKC breeds. Too many people just do it for the $ with no knowledge. Don't even get me started on how they "tea cup size" any breed just because you can fit them in a cute bag. It has to be stopped.
> 
> In short, I believe that only by stopping unethical breeders and puppy mills, will you have more healthy dogs out in the general population that confirm to the original standards. Until this is done, starting to breed a small group back to the standards will be useless.


In March, the AKC registered 200 litters of Havanese. Only a small portion of these were bred by "good" breeders. This is one of the main reasons we formed the HSDAA........where we can certify each dog prior to registration. This cuts out the puppy mills. They are our biggest risk, not HCA members who just don't care.......they don't breed enough to really cause a global problem .....unlike the puppy mills.


----------



## abuelashavanese

abuelashavanese said:


> Oh my, he's grandsire is "PAN"
> 
> OFA Champion of Health Pan
> ________________________________________
> 
> This month the OFA is pleased to feature another top Havanese as our Champion of Health, Ch. Los Perritos Wee Pantaloons, ROMX. Pan is bred and owned by Lynn Nieto. In addition to being the top Havanese in 2001 and 2002 with multiple group wins and placements, his most important contribution has been as a sire. Pan is the top producing Havanese in breed history with over 100 champion offspring including the #1 Havanese in 2006 as well as Westminster and Havanese Club of America Best of Breed winners. In addition, Pan has met the Havanese Club of America's CHIC requirements for health screening as have over 20 of his offspring.
> 
> Pan, Ch Los Perritos Wee Pantaloons, ROMX
> HAV-212G55M- PI HIPS
> HAV-EL50M55- PI ELBOW
> HAV-BR92/56M- PI BAER
> HAV-PA199/55M/ P-PI PATELLA
> HAV-LP95/55M- PI LEGG-CALVE-PERTHES
> HV-799 CERF
> HAV-CA329/86M/ C-PI CARDIAC
> CHIC 16112​


Well, I'm real proud of PAN myself.

*Unfortunately, the HSDAA is wanting to remove his genes. *


----------



## Leeann

Catherine
Website for Havanese Gallery:

http://www.havanesegallery.hu/index_en.php

I put Riley in but unfortunetley no pedegree came up oh well..


----------



## Greg

ama0722 said:


> Greg- as to the double coat for cording, I am taking the HSD website to read that the Arizona line is what produced the coat? It is saying that the HCA standard was drastically changed to a double coat in 1989. So I would assume by that the only corded havanse could be from the AZ blood line? I really thought you had to have a double coat to cord or at least a curly coat to cord (I know poodles can cord and they have a single coat) but is there any other single coated breed that cords?
> 
> Amanda


First of all I want to say thank you to this list for the way you are treating me. I'm happy to keep answering questions because I feel I'm among friends.

Single coats will cord as will silky coats. My Jake is corded. However, now that his cords are starting to weigh more, they are breaking at the base and falling off (pout). We believe the crappy coats came in with whatever dog Dorothy used to interbred (probably unknowingly at first).

I think that changing all those Standards is one of the main reasons we have such a bad problem. I have a copy of Dorothy's 1981 Standard. If everyone had bred to that we'd probably be ok. But they didn't. SO they changed the Standard to fit the dog rather than change the dog to fit the Standard. And now here we are....a million worlds away from where we started. The HSDAA just wants to go back. We want the dog Dorothy had .....she recognized the differences and sold those 4 puppies she raised to ultimately breed. We can't sell off the entire breed .....but we can select away from those traits and ultimately get back to where Dorothy was.


----------



## Olliesmom

That's funny - I used the link in a prior posting and it was all in another language - I thought boy - your guys are smart if you can read that...Thx!!


----------



## Greg

Julie said:


> [Remember, the breed in Cuba was neglected for years and had to be "re-established" by Portuondo and others.


maybe that is where the "mix" came in.........?Not by Goodale,but by Portuondo....maybe you are trying to get a more "Cuban -looking" dog that isn't really correct-historically.It's a thought........[/QUOTE]

Could be. Havanese were shown in Europe as early as 1905 ( I may be off a couple of years). Havanese weren't a rare breed until WWII when the disappeared from Europe (probably eaten). There wasn't any Breeders in the US for the European breeders to send their dogs to like other breeds did. So Cuba is the only place they could be found. AFter the revolution people who owned these dogs didn't really keep track of them.

It's still a work in progress......but remember we aren't trying to breed our dogs to look like Cuban dogs. Those dogs are being bred to the FCI standard of today with calls for short legged long dogs. We want to breed to the Cuban dog of yesteryear.


----------



## aradelat

*yes want to breed to Cuban standard*



Greg said:


> maybe that is where the "mix" came in.........?Not by Goodale,but by Portuondo....maybe you are trying to get a more "Cuban -looking" dog that isn't really correct-historically.It's a thought........


Could be. Havanese were shown in Europe as early as 1905 ( I may be off a couple of years). Havanese weren't a rare breed until WWII when the disappeared from Europe (probably eaten). There wasn't any Breeders in the US for the European breeders to send their dogs to like other breeds did. So Cuba is the only place they could be found. AFter the revolution people who owned these dogs didn't really keep track of them.

It's still a work in progress......but remember we aren't trying to breed our dogs to look like Cuban dogs. Those dogs are being bred to the FCI standard of today with calls for short legged long dogs. We want to breed to the Cuban dog of yesteryear.[/QUOTE]
My understanding is the Havanese Silk Dog folks want to breed to Cuban standards. Diane Klumb says American breeders should follow the country of origin, even if it seems there are many phenotypes in Cuba and breeders in that country are struggling to come standardize the breed.
But here's my question. The Havana Silk Dog folk want a square dog. But the Cuban standard calls for one that is longer than tall. *Cuerpo: El largo del cuerpo supera ligeramente la altura a la cruz. *
Why does teh Havana Silk Dog people think a square dog is better?


----------



## jillnors2

Thanks so much for the info Greg. You've been very informative.

So would PAN be considered a HSD, why or why not? I can't really tell if he has the traits or not.


----------



## whitBmom

Well, I whipped out Oreo's pedigree, and boy.... did I EVER get lost!! Wow, I have a headache  

Julie, Quincy is such a beauty  There was not doubt he was from a good pedigree.

Greg, I must say that I do sincerely appreciate your candor. This topic is extremely interesting and I actually look forward to learning more about this. I never imagined how complicated genetics can be - I have a new found appreciation for those that do this for a living.


----------



## aradelat

My understanding is the Havanese Silk Dog folks want to breed to Cuban standards. Diane Klumb says American breeders should follow the country of origin, even if it seems there are many phenotypes in Cuba and breeders in that country are struggling to come standardize the breed.
But here's my question. The Havana Silk Dog folk want a square dog. But the Cuban standard calls for one that is longer than tall. Cuerpo: El largo del cuerpo supera ligeramente la altura a la cruz. 
Why does teh Havana Silk Dog people think a square dog is better?


----------



## abuelashavanese

Greg said:


> This is going to come as a surprise to many people. Dogs aren't given full registration in the HSDAA based upon pedigree. Every dog must get in on its own merits. Each dog is physically evaluated at 2 yrs of age .


Greg, are you saying that the HSDAA registration is not based on pedigree, its based on "looks" ????


----------



## Melissa Miller

Greg said:


> It's still a work in progress......but remember we aren't trying to breed our dogs to look like Cuban dogs. Those dogs are being bred to the FCI standard of today with calls for short legged long dogs. We want to breed to the Cuban dog of yesteryear.


I think this is an important statement since a lot of people are pulling up websites showing Cuban Dogs who all look different.

I truly hope you can accomplish your goal. It would be a wonderful thing to have a breed with a serious health condition eliminated and no puppy mills. I just wish it was OUR breed. What actions can we take to battle the puppy millers now? Is it almost impossible once they become saturated? I would love to try and stop them. How on earth do you even find them?


----------



## Melissa Miller

Jonda, 
Not answering for Greg, but I think that is what they are doing. Separating the different look they want to breed for which also has less to no cases of CD.


----------



## Greg

aradelat said:


> My understanding is the Havanese Silk Dog folks want to breed to Cuban standards. Diane Klumb says American breeders should follow the country of origin, even if it seems there are many phenotypes in Cuba and breeders in that country are struggling to come standardize the breed.
> But here's my question. The Havana Silk Dog folk want a square dog. But the Cuban standard calls for one that is longer than tall. Cuerpo: El largo del cuerpo supera ligeramente la altura a la cruz.
> Why does teh Havana Silk Dog people think a square dog is better?


There is a significant difference between the Cuban Standard and the FCI standard the Cuban breeders use because the FCI won't give them country of origin. We will


----------



## Greg

Melissa Miller said:


> I think this is an important statement since a lot of people are pulling up websites showing Cuban Dogs who all look different.
> 
> I truly hope you can accomplish your goal. It would be a wonderful thing to have a breed with a serious health condition eliminated and no puppy mills. I just wish it was OUR breed. What actions can we take to battle the puppy millers now? Is it almost impossible once they become saturated? I would love to try and stop them. How on earth do you even find them?


200 litters registered in March.............i bet only 20 were reputable breeders. We can't stand against that onslaught. If it were only show breeders ....it might be different............but these dogs sell for lots of money and people are making breeding decisions based on that fact alone. I hope ours are not very popular to be honest


----------



## Thumper

Julie said:


> I can trace back Quincy's pedigree 7 generations......it didn't automatically give it to me,in the gallery---I had to go to the websites of the dogs posted,but 7 generations isn't enough right?
> 
> He is a grandson of CH Los Perritos Wee Pantaloons ROMX
> He is a grandson of BIS AM/INTLCH West Creek Hot Shot Tapscott ROMX
> 
> what does the ROMX stand for?


Julie! Gucci and Quincy are related :biggrin1: Hot Shot Tapscott is also Gucci's grandfather. How cool is that?

I'll have to sift through my emails/notes with my breeder I can't remember her other Grandfather's name off the top of my head, but I DO remember Hot Shot and the pictures she sent me. (I also verified it on the pedigree website)

Looks like Hot Shot got around! LOL

Kara


----------



## Greg

abuelashavanese said:


> Greg, are you saying that the HSDAA registration is not based on pedigree, its based on "looks" ????


The AKC defines a breed as a set of dogs that look alike. So we select via phenotype. Just like the Norfolk/Norwich Terriers did (ears that stand up or ears that fold over). Just like the Irish Setters and Red and White Irish Setters do.

if the breed is ever accepted by the AKC (and that's a big if), it will be by pedigree. But for now, you have to pass health tests, submit soaped pics and be evaulated before a full registration is given. We really intend on weeding out CD.


----------



## Greg

jillnors2 said:


> Thanks so much for the info Greg. You've been very informative.
> 
> So would PAN be considered a HSD, why or why not? I can't really tell if he has the traits or not.


I doubt Lynn would ever in her life want him to be an HSD.


----------



## Greg

aradelat said:


> My understanding is the Havanese Silk Dog folks want to breed to Cuban standards. Diane Klumb says American breeders should follow the country of origin, even if it seems there are many phenotypes in Cuba and breeders in that country are struggling to come standardize the breed.
> But here's my question. The Havana Silk Dog folk want a square dog. But the Cuban standard calls for one that is longer than tall. Cuerpo: El largo del cuerpo supera ligeramente la altura a la cruz.
> Why does teh Havana Silk Dog people think a square dog is better?


where did you read the HSDs are supposed to be square? That's not true at all.


----------



## abuelashavanese

Greg said:


> I doubt Lynn would ever in her life want him to be an HSD.


Why do you think this is true?


----------



## Olliesmom

> Greg, are you saying that the HSDAA registration is not based on pedigree, its based on "looks" ????


Greg can speak for himself however I believe that is the most important aspect of what he is saying here...eliminating CD and other health issues as well as having dogs which conform to the guidelines he has posted....pedigree does not guarantee that...my understanding new dogs are provisional until age two then they need tests, pictures and evaluations etc to qualify. Just cause you are an offspring doesn't guarantee you anything...if I have mispoken Greg - I am sorry.


----------



## whitBmom

Greg, are there any photos that show what you are looking for in an HSD? I am a visual person, and I "get it" when I can see what is being talked about. Any suggested websites, pictures of dogs and specific characteristics in comparison to other havanese?


----------



## Greg

abuelashavanese said:


> Why do think this is true?


I can't speak for her. I can tell you she's a nice lady


----------



## Greg

whitBmom said:


> Greg, are there any photos that show what you are looking for in an HSD? I am a visual person, and I "get it" when I can see what is being talked about. Any suggested websites, pictures of dogs and specific characteristics in comparison to other havanese?


You can go to my website. Both Jake and Trixie were evaluated last week and both received passing scores. I'm not going to push you off on any other breeder unless they want to go forward though.

One thing that sets an HSD apart is the high head carriage and high tail carriage. I'll try to dig up some pics...........oh wait, on the HSD site you can see some HSDs.


----------



## Greg

Olliesmom said:


> Greg can speak for himself however I believe that is the most important aspect of what he is saying here...eliminating CD and other health issues as well as having dogs which conform to the guidelines he has posted....pedigree does not guarantee that...my understanding new dogs are provisional until age two then they need tests, pictures and evaluations etc to qualify. Just cause you are an offspring doesn't guarantee you anything...if I have mispoken Greg - I am sorry.


nope you are dead on.

By making this move I have to change several things about my breeding program. None of my dogs fall off in the croup. Now I have to select for that. One of my dogs ears are a little long.......now I have to select away from that. One of my dog's tail touches the back, now I have to select away from that. My stud is corded and I've put 2.5 yrs into his cords, now they'll probably have to come off. This isn't a decision I made lightly.


----------



## aradelat

well, what is the Cuban standard? Who came up with it if it isn't Cuban breeders and what is it?


----------



## mckennasedona

I tend to be a visual person too. It would make things clearer if there were a photo of a Hav and a photo of a HSD, next to each other. It would be really easy to tell differences if the two dogs were in the exact same pose. If I recall one set of photos on the HSD site one dog is photograhed directly from the side and it is compared to one with a photo taken more from the front and side of a dog. (I might be thinking of a different site, but side by sides would be good).


----------



## Olliesmom

Quick question - when you say tail touches the back do you mean the actual bone/cartilage or the hair? May be silly ? but we are all so green here!


----------



## Olliesmom

And one other question....isn't that registering only for INTACKED (sp?) dogs for breeding etc??- if you are spayed or nuetered isn't this all irrelavent? Except for maybe how you brand your dog?


----------



## jillnors2

I'm just wondering if the HSD's criteria would include or exclude PAN , I guess I need to see pictures too!!


----------



## aradelat

I was told by the founder of the HSD movement that longer legs and a squarer shape is preferable. She told me that Cuban dogs have long front legs and has such "cuban" dog posted on the HSD site. But from looking at Cuban breeder sites, and reading their standard, it isn't true. They want shorter front legs....


----------



## abuelashavanese

Greg said:


> This is going to come as a surprise to many people. Dogs aren't given full registration in the HSDAA based upon pedigree. Every dog must get in on its own merits. Each dog is physically evaluated at 2 yrs of age


I thought this was all about the Genetic Science ???

So, if you have a litter of 4 pups, and let's say: one of the four is good on the looks and health test, but the other 3 are not. Than only that one good pup can be registered?


----------



## whitBmom

Jonda, I am assuming that would be right. If the one out of the 4, after the 2 yrs is evaluated and is found to be an HSD. I guess we will have to wait and see what Greg would say the protocol is with that.


----------



## mckennasedona

> Than only that one good pup can be registered?


How would one explain that out of a litter of four puppies the sire and dam created one HSD and three Havanese?

Susan


----------



## Leeann

Greg, 
I may actually get to go see one of you pups Sat. I have a baby shower that may be cancelled (mom on bed rest) so I may be able to go.
I have met a very nice breeder that has one of your dogs (I think first litter from Jake) whom invited me to come watch, She is going to help with another one of your pups McGee. Is McGee going to be considered HSD? This will be only the 2nd show I have been to so I really want to try and pay attention to the differnce in the ring everyone is talking abut.


----------



## Julie

Well,I didn't know about Quince being a grandson of those 2 champion dogs,I knew he was a "good"one,but whether Pan or Hot Shot would be considered Havana Silks or not,doesn't matter.They are both EXTREMELY good quality havanese,with an impressive record of wins and more importantly HEALTH!I think it would be hard to say too much about them......and although Quincy is removed somewhat,he still shares those genes,and that suits me just fine!I hope Quince will continue to be healthy.Thank you for the compliment Greg on Quincy...
Will you breed both Havana silks and havanese?
Where did your breeding pair come from?American?


----------



## Julie

I have another question for Greg......
If I can only go back in the pedigree 7 generations,how will I know if Quincy has the AZ.pheno-type or geno-type?What is the "clue" that tells you yes it is,or no,it's not?
Thanks


----------



## abuelashavanese

Greg said:


> The AKC defines a breed as a set of dogs that look alike. So we select via phenotype. Just like the Norfolk/Norwich Terriers did (ears that stand up or ears that fold over). Just like the Irish Setters and Red and White Irish Setters do.
> 
> if the breed is ever accepted by the AKC (and that's a big if), it will be by pedigree. But for now, you have to pass health tests, submit soaped pics and be evaulated before a full registration is given. We really intend on weeding out CD.


I want to be sure I understand your post.

If someone wanted to start a new breed of dogs and have this new breed recognized by the AKC, what they do is find a dog breed that is already registered with the AKC (let's call them, "Punkies") and start a new breeding program that will support a "better" line of the "Punkies" breed. Then they go to the AKC and tell them that they have been registering their dogs as AKC "Punkies", but they are really not "Punkies" dogs at all. In truth is, their dogs are the original "Punks" they are better and really should be able to claim all of the "Punkies" history as proof. Only the good-looking "Punkies" became the "Punks"

Is this how it works with the AKC ??


----------



## Greg

aradelat said:


> well, what is the Cuban standard? Who came up with it if it isn't Cuban breeders and what is it?


Cuba is an FCI country and the breeders breed to the European FCI standard. The Cuban standard has existed for many years, but it isn't the same thing as the FCI. Finding one, ahhhhhhhh now there's the trick. It took us quite a while to get our hands on one


----------



## Melissa Miller

I tell you what, I have learned a LOT about dogs in the last few days. That is a good thing! Isn't it amazing you can actually have a conversation like this in a NORMAL manner!


----------



## Greg

Olliesmom said:


> Quick question - when you say tail touches the back do you mean the actual bone/cartilage or the hair? May be silly ? but we are all so green here!


yes the bone/meat/cartilage. It waves like a flag. The Cubans are very proud of this aspect


----------



## Greg

Olliesmom said:


> And one other question....isn't that registering only for INTACKED (sp?) dogs for breeding etc??- if you are spayed or nuetered isn't this all irrelavent? Except for maybe how you brand your dog?


we register both intact and neuter/spayed dogs. To get a full registration a dog must pass all its health tests, submit soaped pics, submit DNA and be evaluated. Limited registrations are similar without the evaluation.


----------



## Greg

aradelat said:


> I was told by the founder of the HSD movement that longer legs and a squarer shape is preferable. She told me that Cuban dogs have long front legs and has such "cuban" dog posted on the HSD site. But from looking at Cuban breeder sites, and reading their standard, it isn't true. They want shorter front legs....


This is because they breed to the current FCI standard which calls for short legs. There is a difference between the Cuban Standard and the FCI standard.


----------



## Greg

aradelat said:


> I was told by the founder of the HSD movement that longer legs and a squarer shape is preferable. She told me that Cuban dogs have long front legs and has such "cuban" dog posted on the HSD site. But from looking at Cuban breeder sites, and reading their standard, it isn't true. They want shorter front legs....


I think you need to speak to her again. We are not breeding square dogs. We use the exact same measurements the Cubans used before they adopted the current FCI standard. The same measurements found in the 63 FCI standard


----------



## Melissa Miller

Maybe this is what she is talking about...I was told if the dog is a good proportion longer than tall...that the space in between the dogs legs would be a square. Does that make sense? If the dog was stacked...looking at it from the side....you would see a square under the belly and between the legs. 

I am so non-scientific so maybe that makes no sense. Ill stick to taking purty pitchers. hehe


----------



## irnfit

I have such a headache from all this. So, now there is going to be a new dog breed. Fine, all the best and I hope your plans go as you hope they will. What I am objecting to is your into to the HSD on your website. Maybe my skin isn't tough enough, but in reading it, it draws a negative comparison to the Havanese. Anyone who knows can see that. You definitely make it sound like Havs are inferior. Why can't you just remove all that crap and just put in the good stuff about the HSD? By reading this, it sounds like you would be purposely steering people away from Hav breeders. That's not nice!

I think for such a well meaning, intelligent group of people, you have done a dumb thing by beginning your website in that manner. Just my opinion. Thanks for letting me vent.


----------



## irnfit

Melissa, just draw that picture on a piece of paper and see what you came up with. I don't think it is a square.


----------



## juliav

Count me as another confused one!!! lol 
I've been following the thread closely and all I can say is I am even more confused than at the beginning.  The split has left a somewhat bitter taste in my mouth and I am not even a breeder. 

Having said that, I must say thanks to Greg for coming here, posting his views and taking quite a lot of heat from all of us. He obivously believes in his cause and is standing by and defending his rather unpopular decision all by himself. It takes guts and I for one respect that.


----------



## Julie

:rant:I want my questions answered:rant:


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

Yes, i dont know where we would all be on this subject by now, if Greg wasnt here to answer all our questions. Thanks Greg!!


----------



## abuelashavanese

LuvMyHavanese said:


> Yes, i dont know where we would all be on this subject by now, if Greg wasnt here to *answer *all our questions. Thanks Greg!!


Is it Answers or

PROPAGANDA * the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person; ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing causea public action having such an effect.


----------



## Greg

abuelashavanese said:


> I thought this was all about the Genetic Science ???
> 
> So, if you have a litter of 4 pups, and let's say: one of the four is good on the looks and health test, but the other 3 are not. Than only that one good pup can be registered?


This is a great question. We know that breeding straight legged dogs to straight legged dogs can still produce crooked legs. This is because they all have some AZ in them. That's why we are selecting away. By selecting only those dogs which are health tested, evaluated, sound and exhibit the correct breed type, we can influence the direction of the breed..........towards healthy dogs


----------



## Greg

mckennasedona said:


> How would one explain that out of a litter of four puppies the sire and dam created one HSD and three Havanese?
> 
> Susan


There are a lot of technicalities the AKC makes us adhere to when beginning a new breed. If the stud book is still open, you just choose the ones that fit the description. Once the stud book is closed you register them as limited or full depending on whether or not you want them in the gene pool


----------



## Greg

lbkar said:


> Greg,
> I may actually get to go see one of you pups Sat. I have a baby shower that may be cancelled (mom on bed rest) so I may be able to go.
> I have met a very nice breeder that has one of your dogs (I think first litter from Jake) whom invited me to come watch, She is going to help with another one of your pups McGee. Is McGee going to be considered HSD? This will be only the 2nd show I have been to so I really want to try and pay attention to the differnce in the ring everyone is talking abut.


He'll have to pass his health tests and be evaluated. I suspect he'll be one though


----------



## Greg

Julie said:


> Well,I didn't know about Quince being a grandson of those 2 champion dogs,I knew he was a "good"one,but whether Pan or Hot Shot would be considered Havana Silks or not,doesn't matter.They are both EXTREMELY good quality havanese,with an impressive record of wins and more importantly HEALTH!I think it would be hard to say too much about them......and although Quincy is removed somewhat,he still shares those genes,and that suits me just fine!I hope Quince will continue to be healthy.Thank you for the compliment Greg on Quincy...
> Will you breed both Havana silks and havanese?
> Where did your breeding pair come from?American?


I'll breed Havanese dual registered as HSD until the HSD is a recognized breed


----------



## Greg

abuelashavanese said:


> I want to be sure I understand your post.
> 
> If someone wanted to start a new breed of dogs and have this new breed recognized by the AKC, what they do is find a dog breed that is already registered with the AKC (let's call them, "Punkies") and start a new breeding program that will support a "better" line of the "Punkies" breed. Then they go to the AKC and tell them that they have been registering their dogs as AKC "Punkies", but they are really not "Punkies" dogs at all. In truth is, their dogs are the original "Punks" they are better and really should be able to claim all of the "Punkies" history as proof. Only the good-looking "Punkies" became the "Punks"
> 
> Is this how it works with the AKC ??


No, they also have to breed true. You have to really be able to prove the dogs are a seperate breed....you just can't pull it out of thin air


----------



## Greg

Melissa Miller said:


> Maybe this is what she is talking about...I was told if the dog is a good proportion longer than tall...that the space in between the dogs legs would be a square. Does that make sense? If the dog was stacked...looking at it from the side....you would see a square under the belly and between the legs.
> 
> I am so non-scientific so maybe that makes no sense. Ill stick to taking purty pitchers. hehe


no you are correct there. A dog that is SLIGHTLY longer than tall will be square when measured from the top of shoulder to the ground, the top of shoulder to the point of hip and the point of hip to the ground. Interestingly, the Cuban standard provides explicit instructions on how to measure this withyour heands. Smart people those Cubans


----------



## Greg

Julie said:


> :rant:I want my questions answered:rant:


Imust have missed your question. What was it?


----------



## Greg

abuelashavanese said:


> Is it Answers or
> 
> PROPAGANDA * the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person; ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing causea public action having such an effect.


up to now everyone has been so nice


----------



## havanesebyha

Greg,

What are the names of these first dogs Dorothy had in the beginning. Is Setacane one of them?

Thanks,
Libby


----------



## irnfit

Greg, how can you dual register the dogs if they are not a recognized breed?


----------



## Greg

havanesebyha said:


> Greg,
> 
> What are the names of these first dogs Dorothy had in the beginning. Is Setacane one of them?
> 
> Thanks,
> Libby


no Setacane is just a kennel name. It came along after Dorothy. Dorothy's first dogs had spanish names. She names them in her book, but the name escape me now


----------



## Greg

irnfit said:


> Greg, how can you dual register the dogs if they are not a recognized breed?


The HSDAA registry is only a registry of Havanese who have passed all their health tests (the HCA only asks breeders to do the tests not pass them), have submitted soaped pictures (to ascertain breed type and get an idea of the straight legs, submit DNA (so our registry is correct), and submitted for a physical evaluation by a trained dog person who again checked for breed type and straight legs.

At this point it's only like the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval. Until it is recognized as a new breed, all a puppy buyer is really getting is a Havanese that has been certified by a 3rd party organization to be from healthy parents that have been evaluated.


----------



## Julie

Julie said:


> I can trace back Quincy's pedigree 7 generations......it didn't automatically give it to me,in the gallery---I had to go to the websites of the dogs posted,but 7 generations isn't enough right?
> 
> He is a grandson of CH Los Perritos Wee Pantaloons ROMX
> He is a grandson of BIS AM/INTLCH West Creek Hot Shot Tapscott ROMX
> 
> what does the ROMX stand for?


Greg,
Can you answer this one for me?Thanks!


----------



## Julie

Julie said:


> I have another question for Greg......
> If I can only go back in the pedigree 7 generations,how will I know if Quincy has the AZ.pheno-type or geno-type?What is the "clue" that tells you yes it is,or no,it's not?
> Thanks


Greg--
This is kind of the same question.........but what would I look for?How can I go back further in the pedigree to Dorothy's dogs?How important is this,given the "stock"he came from?


----------



## irnfit

Greg, if I have an AKC registered Hav and I submit it to all HSDAA testing, DNA, etc and it passes, what is it? Does it now become a HSD?

(Have your fingers fallen off yet from all the typing  )


----------



## Julie

[

At this point it's only like the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval. Until it is recognized as a new breed, all a puppy buyer is really getting is a Havanese that has been certified by a 3rd party organization to be from healthy parents that have been evaluated.[/QUOTE]

Why couldn't you guys do this through the HCA?A 3rd party registry approving the health testing of the havanese?Then puppy buyers would feel assured of what they were getting etc.and people could direct them towards the 3rd party group.This is/was a great idea!Then only the healthiest would be registered etc.Instead of a new breed,you would be improving the breed every one was supposed to be breeding and fighting for!


----------



## ama0722

Are there any other breeds that have a good seal of approval or is this something the AKC just doesn't get involved with and doesn't allow for? I love the idea of completely health tested dogs and I am sure others do too but there are AKC havanese breeders who are passionate about this too.

It kind of seems like it really isn't a seperate breed especially what we talked about from genetics though. Since most of the dogs do have similar genes as all of them have some Arizona in their blood. I guess it could be a variation like color but I thought AKC doesn't allow that anymore? Could HSD's think about using a registery other than AKC? Since the HSD's that are starting are really AKC havanese it seems like it might be a long time till it would be considered a seperate breed. Wouldn't AKC say wait- this dog's grandsire is a champion of another breed? How long does it usually take to start a seperate breed of dog. I mean even for Dorthy's havanese it took what over 20 years right? Like say one started breeding a champion lab today to a champion poodle- how long till AKC would recognize them as a seperate breed?

Just some more questions when you take registration into the mix!
Amanda


----------



## irnfit

Julie, somewhere way back near the beginning of this thread, Greg gave an answer to your question. He said they have been trying for 8 years to do that very thing. Boy, they had a lot of patience. I would have walked away alot sooner than that.


----------



## Dawna

Isn't that what OFA and CHIC are already doing? Isn't there a plan in place to add x-rays to OFA evaluations for CD? Sounds redundant to have an additional organization. 
I was also wondering about the puppy millers. If people want an HSD puppy, puppy millers will produce HSD puppies for them. Real ones, counterfeit ones, genetically engineered ones. Whatevah. If people will pay money for them, the wholesale puppy business will cash in on the 'new' terms you are using. (I say terms because the dogs are going to be the same, just 'repackaged' for a new marketing strategy)
Just my 1/2 cent.
p.s. This really doesn't require an answer, and sorry if you guys have been over these points in the previous 32 pages.


----------



## abuelashavanese

abuelashavanese said:


> Is it Answers or
> 
> PROPAGANDA * the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person; ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing causea public action having such an effect.
> 
> 
> 
> Greg said:
> 
> 
> 
> up to now everyone has been so nice
Click to expand...

Maybe we just have a different opinion on what nice is&#8230;..


----------



## Greg

Julie said:


> Greg,
> Can you answer this one for me?Thanks!


Register of Merit Excellent

It's given to a dog or bitch that has sired/whelped a certain number of champions


----------



## Greg

Julie said:


> Greg--
> This is kind of the same question.........but what would I look for?How can I go back further in the pedigree to Dorothy's dogs?How important is this,given the "stock"he came from?


The clue really is in how he looks. His phenotype will give us clues to his genotype. We aren't using pedigrees to determine this.........we use phenotype.....so the pedigree isn't all that important at this point


----------



## Greg

irnfit said:


> Greg, if I have an AKC registered Hav and I submit it to all HSDAA testing, DNA, etc and it passes, what is it? Does it now become a HSD?
> 
> (Have your fingers fallen off yet from all the typing  )


YOu can certainly have it placed in the registry. It doesn't become an HSD until an HSD is a breed. Until then it's a havanese with great health and straight legs that looks like the original dog of cuba


----------



## Greg

Julie said:


> [
> 
> At this point it's only like the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval. Until it is recognized as a new breed, all a puppy buyer is really getting is a Havanese that has been certified by a 3rd party organization to be from healthy parents that have been evaluated.


Why couldn't you guys do this through the HCA?A 3rd party registry approving the health testing of the havanese?Then puppy buyers would feel assured of what they were getting etc.and people could direct them towards the 3rd party group.This is/was a great idea!Then only the healthiest would be registered etc.Instead of a new breed,you would be improving the breed every one was supposed to be breeding and fighting for![/QUOTE]

Quite simply, many breeders don't consider curved legs a bad thing. Even though TAMU and HEART have pounded away for years, they don't really care. The first Havanese they saw was like that, everyone told them that's how they are supposed to be and they don't want to believe that they should have straight legs.


----------



## Greg

ama0722 said:


> Are there any other breeds that have a good seal of approval or is this something the AKC just doesn't get involved with and doesn't allow for? I love the idea of completely health tested dogs and I am sure others do too but there are AKC havanese breeders who are passionate about this too.
> 
> It kind of seems like it really isn't a seperate breed especially what we talked about from genetics though. Since most of the dogs do have similar genes as all of them have some Arizona in their blood. I guess it could be a variation like color but I thought AKC doesn't allow that anymore? Could HSD's think about using a registery other than AKC? Since the HSD's that are starting are really AKC havanese it seems like it might be a long time till it would be considered a seperate breed. Wouldn't AKC say wait- this dog's grandsire is a champion of another breed? How long does it usually take to start a seperate breed of dog. I mean even for Dorthy's havanese it took what over 20 years right? Like say one started breeding a champion lab today to a champion poodle- how long till AKC would recognize them as a seperate breed?
> 
> Just some more questions when you take registration into the mix!
> Amanda


I'll answer the easiest question first, you can't combine breeds and make a new breed. If they AKC had thought that Dorothy had combined breeds they would have never accepted the Havanese. This is because when you breed a lab to a poodle you get a labradoodle. But when you breed Labradoodles you get Labs and poodles again. It's the f1f2 hybrid vigor thing. And that's what is happening with the Havanese. When we breed away from disease we end up changing the look of the dog. That's why we think it's a seperate breed. Because as we move further away from CD the dog looks totally different. It has a long muzzle rather than a short muzzle. It has almond eyes rather than round eyes. It has a long neck rather than no neck, it has moderate proportion rather than being long and low. It has fine bones rather than being heavy boned, it has bite problems rather than having good bites. It falls off in the croup rather than being straight in the croup, it has a tail off the back rather than a tail on the back, it has a single coat rather than a double coat. The list goes on and on. We've all seen two different looking dogs............because they are two different breeds. When you go to a dog show do all the DObes look different? Do all the labs look different? Do all the beagles look different? the answer is no. Breeds are dogs that look the same.


----------



## Greg

Dawna said:


> Isn't that what OFA and CHIC are already doing? Isn't there a plan in place to add x-rays to OFA evaluations for CD? Sounds redundant to have an additional organization.
> I was also wondering about the puppy millers. If people want an HSD puppy, puppy millers will produce HSD puppies for them. Real ones, counterfeit ones, genetically engineered ones. Whatevah. If people will pay money for them, the wholesale puppy business will cash in on the 'new' terms you are using. (I say terms because the dogs are going to be the same, just 'repackaged' for a new marketing strategy)
> Just my 1/2 cent.
> p.s. This really doesn't require an answer, and sorry if you guys have been over these points in the previous 32 pages.


Ever the skeptic eh? Well it's not really an HSD unless it's certified.

OFA and CHIC only do what the parent club tells them. THe HCA doesn't ask that dogs pass their test, only that they take them. Of course we are the only breed that does that. The rest of the breeds actually ask that you pass the tests you take. But those registries don't keep track of the dogs that pass and they don't do the evaluations. I doubt the HCA will ever explore x-rays for the front legs because most of the breeders who have been pushing the x-rays have just left.

But here's the funny part. While we were with the HCA those breeders who are screaming the loudest now were the ones telling us our dogs weren't havanese. I'm totally serious. For years they told us and everyone else who would listen. Iv'e had puppy buyers call me and specifically ask about my dogs and why other "reputable" breeders told them my dogs were "mutts." But now that we leave, well they are screaming again. At this point it's rather ridiculous.


----------



## Greg

abuelashavanese said:


> Maybe we just have a different opinion on what nice is&#8230;..


I guess we do. I should be happy that we made it this deep into a thread before someone finally said something to be hurtful. It goes to show how nice the other people are too.


----------



## Dawna

Well, I don't think the puppy millers and brokers are going to care if it's 'really' and HSD or not. You're not dealing with the pillars of society there.


----------



## Greg

Dawna said:


> Well, I don't think the puppy millers and brokers are going to care if it's 'really' and HSD or not. You're not dealing with the pillars of society there.


This is true, but i doubt the market will be a strong one. We can only do the best we can, and the HCA wasn't doing that. There job was to protect the standard as well as the health of the breed. They failed miserably. I hope we fair better


----------



## mckennasedona

I'll bet the Havanese Gallery hasn't seen this much action since it was started. We're all checking our Hav's pedigrees looking for the dreaded AZ genes, even though it's said that ALL of the Havs bred in America have them. Plus, Greg says they are looking at phenotypes. My girls are Havanese through and through but it is interesting that one is longer legged, finer boned and with a thinner coat than her half sister (but it is a double coat, which I know because she used to mat like crazy!!) They share the same sire but each must get most of their traits from their dams.


----------



## ama0722

Okay the F1F2 part lost me <BG> Are you saying the 2nd generation of puppies breed away from the AZ lines look completely different? So if you take 2 straight leg dogs, their grand puppies would look totally different from the grandparents?

I get what you are saying about some breeds look a lot more alike than our breed. I just kind of assumed since it was a new breed to the AKC that was common. Also since the standard for the breed has seemed to change quite often in the last 40 years and especially in each part of the world. It seems as if breeders would get as confused as some of the judges are.

Amanda


----------



## Greg

I'm saying that eventually when you breed the two types together, rather than a mixture you get one of the HSD type and one of the havanese type. That's more like what happens when you breed two different breeds together than it is when you breed two of the same breed together. The reason our standard has changed so much is each time the HCA members get together and notice the standard doesn't reflect their dogs, they change the standard rather than try to breed better dogs. SO they'll never get there.


----------



## Dawna

Hmmm, it seems some of those HCA members responsible for those changes in the standard (to reflect their dogs) are now involved in forming a new organization. Either I'm missing huge chunks of information, or there are huge chunks of information missing.


----------



## Melissa Miller

Do yall need T-shirts? I can design them in Camo.


----------



## abuelashavanese

Melissa Miller said:


> Do yall need T-shirts? I can design them in Camo.


Maybe your should change the HAVANESE t-shirts to a bullet-proof vest. :bounce:


----------



## Julie

abuelashavanese said:


> Well, I'm real proud of PAN myself.
> 
> *Unfortunately, the HSDAA is wanting to remove his genes. *


Greg,
why would the HSDAA want to remove his genes?Seems like if they and you too,I guess want to move on to another breed,or make one,or whatever ...why would anyone need to fool with Pan?Why would they want to discredit this dog?I'm sure most breeders in the hav world wished they had him......is this another jealousy issue?How can you celebrate a fine hav "specimen" in one hand and "trash" him behind his back?

I'M NOT SAYING YOU PERSONALLY,JUST THE HSDAA ORGANIZATION.


----------



## abuelashavanese

Greg, if you were a betting man, what would you say the odds would be for the Havanna Silk Dogs receiving AKC breed recognition within the next 5 years?


----------



## TnTWalter

*So...*

You [Greg] wrote...
_*At this point it's only like the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval. Until it is recognized as a new breed, all a puppy buyer is really getting is a Havanese that has been certified by a 3rd party organization to be from healthy parents that have been evaluated.*_

I thought it wasn't about health because you have said in many of the 30+ pages that havanese from reputable breeders are HEALTHY, right?

You repeatedly stated HSA was about going back to the ORIGINAL cuban dog, getting away from the MUTT that Dorothy created [the American Havanese].

But NOW it's about HEALTH only [well until AKC approves HSA].

FOR NOW you're going to market yourself as a HEALTHY havanese with that HSA seal of aprroval [until AKC recognizes your 'havana silk' dog].

When and IF AKC approves you....you're going to have the new breed of HAVANA SILK dog *UNLESS* you have BLACK ones; those will be marketed as HAVANESE [because they can't be HSA], but not American Havanese, no they'll have the *HSA* GOOD HOUSEKEEPING seal of approval so buyers know they're not UNHEALTHY.

OKIE DOKIE....

:juggle:

Trish


----------



## Mojito/Bruiser

Bla, Bla, Bla, 

I not a breeder and don't know too much about genetics. After reading so much about designer breeds; Guess What, I think I purchased some designer dogs. I paid lost of money for these dogs and I am not sorry about it. Sire form a Costa Rican breeder and the Bitch from Palm Beach. The best dogs I have ever had. 

Use the best of all 4 types and continue to breed and develop these fantastic dogs. Improve their health issues and standardize the look. 

I keep running into people (potential owners/customers) who know the breed and think the world of it. Sad part of it is I am Cuban and very few Cubans down here know about this breed. 

These are dogs with great temperament and beautiful looks. I love them.


----------



## abuelashavanese

Greg said:


> 1. If you want specific examples of the two 'types' of Havanese who have both been very successful but who are entirely different dogs, all you have to do is look at *Keebler and Pan*. Do they look like the same breed? Not really, but they can both manage to fit under the umbrella of the AKC standard. Those of us who prefer the original Cuban type dog simply wish to go in peace and continue to select for our preferred type of dog. Because it is our belief that the types are disparate enough to constitute a separate breed, this is our ultimate goal.


This is all about the *"Pan" vs "Keebler"*

_(Pan's Breeder is Lynn Nieto)
(Keebler's Breeders are Joanne V Baldwin DVM and Diane Klumb)_

:brick:


----------



## marbenv

I wish we could all see a picture of Pan and Keebler side by side. Then maybe I could see what the differences are. I understand about the health issues and straight legs, but not having that much experience with the Havs, I can't see the differences in the pictures on everyones web sites. If the HCA breeders ARE breeding to try to eliminate disease, then the only difference between the HS and the Hav would be appearance, right? So if a reputable Hav breeder (as I assume Lynn is) has a healthy dog and Greg (also reputable ) has a healthy dog, it's up to the purchaser to decide which look they like better. RIGHT? WHEEWWW!

Marsha


----------



## Greg

ama0722 said:


> Okay the F1F2 part lost me <BG> Are you saying the 2nd generation of puppies breed away from the AZ lines look completely different? So if you take 2 straight leg dogs, their grand puppies would look totally different from the grandparents?
> 
> Amanda


yes. as long as you are breeding away ....after a couple of generations your dogs start looking different. Keep in mind each parent must continue to be bred away, you can't go further back up the pedigree and not bring the full genetic load of CD back with you. Clear as mud?


----------



## Greg

Dawna said:


> Hmmm, it seems some of those HCA members responsible for those changes in the standard (to reflect their dogs) are now involved in forming a new organization. Either I'm missing huge chunks of information, or there are huge chunks of information missing.


yep you are missing huge chunks of information


----------



## Greg

abuelashavanese said:


> Maybe your should change the HAVANESE t-shirts to a bullet-proof vest. :bounce:


we probably should considering how nasty some people are being


----------



## Greg

Julie said:


> Greg,
> why would the HSDAA want to remove his genes?Seems like if they and you too,I guess want to move on to another breed,or make one,or whatever ...why would anyone need to fool with Pan?Why would they want to discredit this dog?I'm sure most breeders in the hav world wished they had him......is this another jealousy issue?How can you celebrate a fine hav "specimen" in one hand and "trash" him behind his back?
> 
> I'M NOT SAYING YOU PERSONALLY,JUST THE HSDAA ORGANIZATION.


where did anyone trash him? I've not seen anyone or any organization that trashed any specific dog. What did anyone post here on on the HSDAA website that was about him at all?


----------



## Greg

abuelashavanese said:


> Greg, if you were a betting man, what would you say the odds would be for the Havanna Silk Dogs receiving AKC breed recognition within the next 5 years?


less than 50% in 5 yrs.


----------



## susaneckert

I agree some can be but at the same time isnt how must people are when it comes to breeding that is what I have found out even as a child when my parents would show dogs I would ask them why are they nice to your face and then stab you when you turn your back, to me that is wrong. but then some times peopel dont read it the way it was meant to be read !


----------



## Greg

TnTWalter said:


> You [Greg] wrote...
> _*At this point it's only like the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval. Until it is recognized as a new breed, all a puppy buyer is really getting is a Havanese that has been certified by a 3rd party organization to be from healthy parents that have been evaluated.*_
> 
> I thought it wasn't about health because you have said in many of the 30+ pages that havanese from reputable breeders are HEALTHY, right?
> 
> You repeatedly stated HSA was about going back to the ORIGINAL cuban dog, getting away from the MUTT that Dorothy created [the American Havanese].
> 
> But NOW it's about HEALTH only [well until AKC approves HSA].
> 
> FOR NOW you're going to market yourself as a HEALTHY havanese with that HSA seal of aprroval [until AKC recognizes your 'havana silk' dog].
> 
> When and IF AKC approves you....you're going to have the new breed of HAVANA SILK dog *UNLESS* you have BLACK ones; those will be marketed as HAVANESE [because they can't be HSA], but not American Havanese, no they'll have the *HSA* GOOD HOUSEKEEPING seal of approval so buyers know they're not UNHEALTHY.
> 
> OKIE DOKIE....
> 
> :juggle:
> 
> Trish


I'm still looking for info that says we can't have black dogs. we aren't breeding back only to the 63 FCI because it doesn't cover enough for the AKC. We haven't put our standard up becaue it is still in Committee. WHen it comes out we'll see where black fits in


----------



## Julie

Greg,
I went back and re-read the post.......Sorry.....I thought it was your post,that said the HS CLUB was trying to remove his genes(PAN).I wondered why that was.......my apologies...:sorry:


----------



## Greg

no biggie. But thanks for writing back


----------



## Greg

I've given some thought to this...........I'm willing to provide my telephone number to anyone that wants to talk about this and sends me a private message. Please don't just do it to yell at me though.


----------



## Julie

Greg,
You know what I find interesting?I'm all in turmoil over this break-off of the havanese breed.......and I don't really know why.I've NEVER bred a dog before,I'm just a pet owner.I have never even seen a dog show in person...but I just think it is sad.Maybe it is the way it comes across or something,I'm just not sure.I think it would be fabulous to preserve the havanese to it's original form,though it seems all breeds "evolve"somewhat.If there is a way to shut down the puppy mills and unethical breeders,I'm all for that...but when the interpretation is to take away something (history)from the havanese in order to promote something new and better,or improved...well.....I don't know.History is what it is...For the most part I think the people on this forum are all friendly,sincere people with the best dogs(we think)the havanese.I for one,appreciate you answering the questions we have.Thank you for doing that......I respect you for it.


----------



## Melissa Miller

Yes lets be nice to Greg. He doesn't HAVE to be here talking to us. Im not saying you can't disagree with him. Say whatever you want, just say it nicely. Or at least somewhat nicely. 

I wasn't being mean about the t-shirts. I was being funny.  I was working on the forum ones last night.


----------



## abuelashavanese

Greg said:


> This is true, but i doubt the market will be a strong one. We can only do the best we can, and the HCA wasn't doing that. *There job was to protect the standard as well as the health of the breed. They failed miserably.* I hope we fair better


Is your post that is quoted above your idea of nice? 

I think it is *DEFAMATION *:

Defamation is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may harm the reputation of an individual, business, product, group, government or nation.

If a person or the news media says or writes something about you that harms your reputation, or that keeps people from associating with you, defamation has occurred. Slander is oral defamation, and libel is written defamation.


----------



## Dawna

:behindsofa: It was funny. Camo shirts. teehee:behindsofa:


----------



## Greg

Julie said:


> Greg,
> You know what I find interesting?I'm all in turmoil over this break-off of the havanese breed.......and I don't really know why.I've NEVER bred a dog before,I'm just a pet owner.I have never even seen a dog show in person...but I just think it is sad.Maybe it is the way it comes across or something,I'm just not sure.I think it would be fabulous to preserve the havanese to it's original form,though it seems all breeds "evolve"somewhat.If there is a way to shut down the puppy mills and unethical breeders,I'm all for that...but when the interpretation is to take away something (history)from the havanese in order to promote something new and better,or improved...well.....I don't know.History is what it is...For the most part I think the people on this forum are all friendly,sincere people with the best dogs(we think)the havanese.I for one,appreciate you answering the questions we have.Thank you for doing that......I respect you for it.


This isn't aimed at you, it's just what I feel at the moment because you wrote something that lots of people are saying. How sad is it that most of of the vocal disagreement is over the Cuban part. Why aren't they standing up and saying, my dog's legs are straight and here's proof?

We aren't taking anything from the Havanese. We have only decided to save that portion of the Havanese that came from Cuba. It doesn't change what the Havanese IS, it just recognizes that every dog Dorothy used wasn't a full blooded original dog from Cuba.


----------



## Greg

Julie said:


> Greg,
> You know what I find interesting?I'm all in turmoil over this break-off of the havanese breed.......and I don't really know why.I've NEVER bred a dog before,I'm just a pet owner.I have never even seen a dog show in person...but I just think it is sad.Maybe it is the way it comes across or something,I'm just not sure.I think it would be fabulous to preserve the havanese to it's original form,though it seems all breeds "evolve"somewhat.If there is a way to shut down the puppy mills and unethical breeders,I'm all for that...but when the interpretation is to take away something (history)from the havanese in order to promote something new and better,or improved...well.....I don't know.History is what it is...For the most part I think the people on this forum are all friendly,sincere people with the best dogs(we think)the havanese.I for one,appreciate you answering the questions we have.Thank you for doing that......I respect you for it.


thank you so much.


----------



## marjrc

OMG! all I can say is I go missing for a couple of days and this new thread has 36 pages worth of posts!!!!! YIKES ! I'll never read the whole thing, but obviously there is a lot that people have to say! :biggrin1:


----------



## mckennasedona

> I'm all in turmoil over this break-off of the havanese breed.......and I don't really know why


I'm with you Julie. I cannot figure out for the life of me why I feel strongly about this issue. I simply have two Hav pets. The HSD thing doesn't affect me at all. Perhaps I'm feeling this way because I consider my girls' breeder and a few other breeders my friends. Of course, I haven't asked any of them where they stand on the whole issue. I have a feeling I know which way some will go but I could be way off base. I'd hate to think any of them were hurt by this or that their dogs are considered inferior in any way (after all, mine are perfect, dontcha know!!) 

Susan
Susan


----------



## Julie

It seems SAD...I went back 7 generations....then last night found another 2-3 generations of dogs on Quincy's one side,and there is a photo of at least 2 different dogs,that to tell you the truth-----looks alot like my Quince.ALOT.I did wonder how they could look that much alike over this many breedings etc.I know some perhaps in the hav world have alot of variances,but I say KUDOS to my breeders...looks like what Dorothy had to work with,and that suits me just fine.In my head-I do have the havana silk,the havanese.:biggrin1:


----------



## Julie

I know you are after the breeders to do this......but I will stand up and say my dogs legs are straight.....my dog's tail doesn't lay on his back,he has a neck,and believe it or not......he has what you are calling 6/6 teeth(I believe).His coat is long with a little zig-zag on the ends(fitting the standard),and he has almond shaped dark eyes.


----------



## Mojito/Bruiser

I guess I lucked out. Bruiser looks just like the Arizona Hav. and Mojito looks like the Cuban type.

I even picked out their names to match their type without even knowing the difference.

I must agree they do not look like litter mates and do look very different.


----------



## TnTWalter

*OK People...*

We've spent enough time worrying over this HS dog. Let's put this energy into OUR dogs: THE HAVANESE. Hopefully this will only encourage HCA to strive to do even better for the HAVANESE.

We can use our energy [look how long this thread has lasted; we obviously have energy and passion] to ENCOURAGE bettering the HEALTH and tightening the characteristics of the HAVANESE.

Who here is on the HCA board that can tell us who we can EMAIL or CALL or WHAT we can do???

As Greg Said....let _*us who prefer the original Cuban type dog simply wish to go in peace and continue to select for our preferred type of dog*_.

I say PLEASE LET THEM LEAVE.

AND PLEASE PLEASE HSA People, do what you say you want and LEAVE. Let people committed to the HAVANESE breed fill your positions at HCA and other HAVANESE organizations. Go on and form your own organizations and FUND your OWN testing, etc. Go for it!

I hope you make elegant little healthy cubans.

GO IN PEACE!!!! :wave:

Leave us to our healthy cute havanese.

Trish


----------



## irnfit

Has everyone read the HSDAA website cover to cover? Any comments on what is on their website? I would appreciate hearing your take on it.


----------



## ama0722

I was talking to some people at the training club about this today and what they asked me was if these dogs are so different why are the AKC judges giving championships to both sides? I assume they are. Do judges not see there are 2 different dogs in the ring? Or are X judges giving havanese championships and Y judges giving HSD championships? Or are the judges just giving them based on the other end of the lead. As I have only been to like 10 confirmation shows as I compete in performance, I never realy saw it as 2 different breeds in the same ring but just the dogs had some differences.

I guess I also don't know by looking at many of them if they have CD or not. Can't judges feel that when they are on the table though? 

Amanda


----------



## La Cantadora

An old marketing tactic...make outrageous, unproveable claims for your
"new improved product" ..strictly control and limit production .raise the price, slander the competetion, ..arrogance and avrice can take you a long way !!


----------



## Greg

La Cantadora said:


> An old marketing tactic...make outrageous, unproveable claims for your
> "new improved product" ..strictly control and limit production .raise the price, slander the competetion, ..arrogance and avrice can take you a long way !!


another trick: complain loudly when you've been found out.


----------



## Greg

ama0722 said:


> I was talking to some people at the training club about this today and what they asked me was if these dogs are so different why are the AKC judges giving championships to both sides? I assume they are. Do judges not see there are 2 different dogs in the ring? Or are X judges giving havanese championships and Y judges giving HSD championships? Or are the judges just giving them based on the other end of the lead. As I have only been to like 10 confirmation shows as I compete in performance, I never realy saw it as 2 different breeds in the same ring but just the dogs had some differences.
> 
> I guess I also don't know by looking at many of them if they have CD or not. Can't judges feel that when they are on the table though?
> 
> Amanda


That is exactly what happens. Some put up one type and complain that there are two types of dogs in the ring. The others put up the other type and complain there are two types of dogs in the ring.


----------



## Greg

TnTWalter said:


> We've spent enough time worrying over this HS dog. Let's put this energy into OUR dogs: THE HAVANESE. Hopefully this will only encourage HCA to strive to do even better for the HAVANESE.
> 
> We can use our energy [look how long this thread has lasted; we obviously have energy and passion] to ENCOURAGE bettering the HEALTH and tightening the characteristics of the HAVANESE.
> 
> Who here is on the HCA board that can tell us who we can EMAIL or CALL or WHAT we can do???
> 
> As Greg Said....let _*us who prefer the original Cuban type dog simply wish to go in peace and continue to select for our preferred type of dog*_.
> 
> I say PLEASE LET THEM LEAVE.
> 
> AND PLEASE PLEASE HSA People, do what you say you want and LEAVE. Let people committed to the HAVANESE breed fill your positions at HCA and other HAVANESE organizations. Go on and form your own organizations and FUND your OWN testing, etc. Go for it!
> 
> I hope you make elegant little healthy cubans.
> 
> GO IN PEACE!!!! :wave:
> 
> Leave us to our healthy cute havanese.
> 
> Trish


thank you very much. I wish the Havanese and all their owners the best of luck.


----------



## Mojito/Bruiser

Well they are trying to claim the old product is better. 

However I think the breeders may have created a much better product today. 

Let everybody know if anybody is going to depend on Cuban information or records. They are going to be in for a big surprize. That goverment is so corrupt that anything can be created or destroyed for a nominal fee. 

Thus the original Cuban standard may have changed dramatically in the last 40 years. 

Are we today going to believe the Cubans have been breeding the dogs and keeping close tabs on the standard? I don't think so!


----------



## Leeann

We went to the show today and I cant say I seen a big difference in structure with all the dogs there. Of course it is very hard to see the legs with all the fur. We had a very good time and met some really nice breeders and got to watch McGee earn his first point towards his championship. It was really fun to be standing next to his owner and enjoying her excitment with her.


----------



## Greg

Mojito/Bruiser said:


> Well they are trying to claim the old product is better.
> 
> However I think the breeders may have created a much better product today.
> 
> Let everybody know if anybody is going to depend on Cuban information or records. They are going to be in for a big surprize. That goverment is so corrupt that anything can be created or destroyed for a nominal fee.
> 
> Thus the original Cuban standard may have changed dramatically in the last 40 years.
> 
> Are we today going to believe the Cubans have been breeding the dogs and keeping close tabs on the standard? I don't think so!


You should read the previous 30 pages. They'll help you understand better


----------



## irnfit

If it is true that HCA is not adhering to their own constitution, by-laws and standard, then they should be held accountable. However, why did these people wait 8 years to get their message out. And because of the way they did it, I think that has caused all the animosity.

The first sentence on their website degrades the Havanese (and if I was a breeder I would be outraged at that), but then they go on to lump the two dogs together. 

Why don't they just totally disassociate themselves from the Havanese? It is because they know in order to get a new breed recognized by AKC, it takes many, many years. But they have decided to continue their association as Havanese breeders/showers. Why do they want to continue to breed such an inferior dog (according to them).

Also, I asked this question 2x - who has the original breeding stock for the HSD?


----------



## Greg

They didn't wait 8 years. HEART was formed almost 9 yrs ago. It's been everyday since HEART was formed. Everyday. You are only hearing one side of it because it's out in the open now. You didn't have to endure a BOD member tell puppy buyers our dogs were mutts. You didn't have to listen to other Breeders degrade my dogs at dog shows. One even told me they were mutts to my face. All of them said we didn't have Havanese. Where is agreeing with them and leaving wrong? If they were smart they'd be happy. I suspect some are sad because most of the straight legs are leaving with us. 

I've answered your question about foundation stock more times than I can count. You'll have to re-read the thread to find my answer.


----------



## irnfit

Sorry, I must have missed it. There's a lot to read here.
And I didn't mean to make you angry. I am very new to this - my oldest Hav is only 18 mos. But maybe if this had been out in the open, more people would have had correct info, instead of all the bickering.


----------



## abuelashavanese

Greg said:


> a*nother trick: complain loudly when you've been found out*.


Using Threats -- Now is this nice ?

:fear:


----------



## TnTWalter

*...*

:deadhorse:


----------



## Julie

this whole thread is a little of everything
:argue:
:rant:
:fish:
:boxing:
:laugh:

but without Greg answering the questions......it just sits here....
as you can see,no other (regulars,I'm aware of)breeders have said anything

Jonda aside......
What's up with that?


----------



## mckennasedona

Greg is a brave soul to take this on himself and I do appreciate the information. From everyone, actually. I've read the genetic information with interest and it has made me take a fresh look at my girls. Just out of curiosity and without taking them to a vet to be evaluated, I look to see if I can tell if their legs are straight without soaping them up (they have puppy cuts). I compare their coats and the lengths of their muzzles. Just for grins and giggles. They like it because it means extra pets and extra attention.

Susan

Susan


----------



## Greg

irnfit said:


> Sorry, I must have missed it. There's a lot to read here.
> And I didn't mean to make you angry. I am very new to this - my oldest Hav is only 18 mos. But maybe if this had been out in the open, more people would have had correct info, instead of all the bickering.


I'm sorry for the way I replied. I'm tired and acted like a jerk and I'm sorry for it. I'll find the post and send it to you. Again, I'm sorry for acting the way I did.


----------



## Greg

mckennasedona said:


> Greg is a brave soul to take this on himself and I do appreciate the information. From everyone, actually. I've read the genetic information with interest and it has made me take a fresh look at my girls. Just out of curiosity and without taking them to a vet to be evaluated, I look to see if I can tell if their legs are straight without soaping them up (they have puppy cuts). I compare their coats and the lengths of their muzzles. Just for grins and giggles. They like it because it means extra pets and extra attention.
> 
> Susan
> 
> Susan


just pull out the leg and look from elbow to the foot.....does it curve? It takes some practice to understand what you see, but usually curves are easy to see. the ratio of muzzle to head is 3:4. so measure from the nose to the stop (between the eyes) ....and then measure from the stop to the occiput (bump on the top of their head.


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

quote:but without Greg answering the questions......it just sits here....
as you can see,no other (regulars,I'm aware of)breeders have said anything

Jonda aside......
What's up with that?[/QUOTE]

I agree, Greg has answered many many questions regardless of whether or not people agreed with him. He has taken a lot.
I am not sure though what 'Jonda' has contributed to this discussion.............except negativity. :argue:


----------



## Melissa Miller

However we ARE keeping it friendly.....this wont turn into the slug fests that take place on the lists. 
You don't have to agree. You can disagree....just do it in a way that won't give me a headache. 

What I would like to see....if someone wants to debate what they are doing.. is some facts. I would like to see the HCA left out of it, the people who started it left out and just see some debate on the facts. Can they do this and help the standard? Can they breed out CD? Because things like that are huge things. I have to admit it IS frustrating watching my dog in the ring who is competing against a dog who is so different. At Nationals, there were so many dogs, that they all tended to blend in and look like cute Havanese. 

At a local show when there are two or three dogs in the breed ring, yours can be next to one who is just so different. And they are both within standard. Stogie is not a huge dog, but he is not tiny. So competing against a fluff ball who is so much smaller and lighter etc...how do you judge??? They are so different. A LOT of people tell me...if the judge likes that dog...he would never like yours and vice versa. As if the two dogs are not competing because its just a matter of which body structure the judge likes. IS this true in ALL breeds? Because I don't see it at the shows. 

I would be glad if our standard was tighter. I don't even care if my dogs fit in it, but then at least we would know what to look for. I had a lot of people say Stogie is a big dog, but he is considered IDEAL in the height standard. So whats up with that? The entire dog business can be crazy. 

I say lets all see how it develops. It is not going to affect any of us right now. Im not being closed minded on anything until I hear all the facts.


----------



## The Fussy Puppy Gang

Melissa Miller said:


> ...A LOT of people tell me...if the judge likes that dog...he would never like yours and vice versa. As if the two dogs are not competing because its just a matter of which body structure the judge likes. IS this true in ALL breeds? Because I don't see it at the shows...
> 
> Melissa,
> 
> Here's what I learned from my sister's years of breeding and showing Akita's. The whole business of breeding and showing dogs is subjective. Every breed standard is interpreted by individuals, both breeder and judge. So I'd say you'd see some of this variance in every breed ring.
> 
> For instance, some years goldens with lighter coats win more than the darker ones and some years it's vice versa. Some circles prefer boxier heads on their goldens and others don't. But both types, within reason, fit the standard.
> 
> Some breeders won't bother entering a dog if they know the judge that day doesn't like their dog's type, or they do enter if it's a good judge for their dog.
> 
> This is nothing new. It's also not obvious unless you know the judge's preference yourself.
> 
> The sport of showing dogs is one of those sports that Las Vegas won't take bets on because the outcome relies on human opinion.
> 
> Wanda


----------



## Greg

Melissa Miller said:


> However we ARE keeping it friendly.....this wont turn into the slug fests that take place on the lists.
> You don't have to agree. You can disagree....just do it in a way that won't give me a headache.
> 
> What I would like to see....if someone wants to debate what they are doing.. is some facts. I would like to see the HCA left out of it, the people who started it left out and just see some debate on the facts. Can they do this and help the standard? Can they breed out CD? Because things like that are huge things. I have to admit it IS frustrating watching my dog in the ring who is competing against a dog who is so different. At Nationals, there were so many dogs, that they all tended to blend in and look like cute Havanese.
> 
> At a local show when there are two or three dogs in the breed ring, yours can be next to one who is just so different. And they are both within standard. Stogie is not a huge dog, but he is not tiny. So competing against a fluff ball who is so much smaller and lighter etc...how do you judge??? They are so different. A LOT of people tell me...if the judge likes that dog...he would never like yours and vice versa. As if the two dogs are not competing because its just a matter of which body structure the judge likes. IS this true in ALL breeds? Because I don't see it at the shows.
> 
> I would be glad if our standard was tighter. I don't even care if my dogs fit in it, but then at least we would know what to look for. I had a lot of people say Stogie is a big dog, but he is considered IDEAL in the height standard. So whats up with that? The entire dog business can be crazy.
> 
> I say lets all see how it develops. It is not going to affect any of us right now. Im not being closed minded on anything until I hear all the facts.


I'm happy to discuss the facts.


----------



## Greg

ok gang. I put together an album to try to show the differences. I was at a dog show last weekend and a friend took these pictures. There are 4. One is a Havanese and the other 3 are HSDs. Can you see the differences?

I hope this link comes thru

http://www.havaneseforum.com/photopost531/showgallery.php?cat=549


----------



## Greg

The Fussy Puppy Gang said:


> Melissa Miller said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...A LOT of people tell me...if the judge likes that dog...he would never like yours and vice versa. As if the two dogs are not competing because its just a matter of which body structure the judge likes. IS this true in ALL breeds? Because I don't see it at the shows...
> 
> Melissa,
> 
> Here's what I learned from my sister's years of breeding and showing Akita's. The whole business of breeding and showing dogs is subjective. Every breed standard is interpreted by individuals, both breeder and judge. So I'd say you'd see some of this variance in every breed ring.
> 
> For instance, some years goldens with lighter coats win more than the darker ones and some years it's vice versa. Some circles prefer boxier heads on their goldens and others don't. But both types, within reason, fit the standard.
> 
> Some breeders won't bother entering a dog if they know the judge that day doesn't like their dog's type, or they do enter if it's a good judge for their dog.
> 
> This is nothing new. It's also not obvious unless you know the judge's preference yourself.
> 
> The sport of showing dogs is one of those sports that Las Vegas won't take bets on because the outcome relies on human opinion.
> 
> Wanda
> 
> 
> 
> wonderful post. Thank you
Click to expand...


----------



## Mojito/Bruiser

Greg, Im with you fix the standard. 

All those dogs appear to have HSD and Havanese traits. The tails, the face etc.


----------



## ama0722

Can we point out the differences? Because when I look, the havanese just looks young and not in as full of a coat maybe a bit more immature looking. Also maybe the family with the dog just lets it play outside a lot more. I know if you showed Belle my maltese against her sister it would look extremely silly as Belle gets to run outside everyday, I only wash her face on occasion, etc. So she would look like the mutt for sure <BG>

So I am looking at the havanese who is naturally stacked and the HSD who is naturally stacked. Because the others seem to be holding the tail up and placing the dog which is kind of cheating. At least I know in obedience, if I stack Dora before I leave her, I can place her body in an unnatural position so she won't sit down. I assume you can kind of creat a different look for the dog by stacking it too? Like the first HSD is exactly what I do with Dora so she doesn't sit down and get shy when the judge comes to look at her. Or where her legs look like they are going too forward in front and too far in back would that be the correct siloutte of a HSD?

So inroder to define HSD v. Havanese
1. height... hard to tell but the dogs look the same height to me. 
proportions- the havanese looks longer than tall where as the HSD looks taller than long.
2. tail set... looks identical in these 2 dogs actually neither appear to have bone on back. But could this just be something of a shy or unhappy dog. Like the other 2 the handlers has the hand on the tail- isnt that what they do for dogs that don't have the ring personality?
3. coat- the black dog does look more shiny and silky but isn't that natural with black hair? My sable's hair is more silky where it is black. It would be intersting to see a white HSD v. a white havanese.
4. straight legs- i think it is hard to tell dogs in full coat.
5. bite... no clue!

What else am I missing? Maybe I just don't have an eye for this as I am totally novice. I just think it is interesting to try and see the differences.

BTW, I think this is cool to do as I am learning so much about structure. I think I will soap up my little girl and maybe we could talk about her! She is just a pet and spayed as a puppy so I don't care but the structure really is interesting to me since I work my dogs in agility and it is hard to do well without a sound dog.

Thanks for giving us the photos to reallly grasp,
Amanda


----------



## tehashavanese

Julie said:


> Greg,
> why would the HSDAA want to remove his genes?Seems like if they and you too,I guess want to move on to another breed,or make one,or whatever ...why would anyone need to fool with Pan?Why would they want to discredit this dog?I'm sure most breeders in the hav world wished they had him......is this another jealousy issue?How can you celebrate a fine hav "specimen" in one hand and "trash" him behind his back?
> 
> No one wants to discredit Pan, or any other Havanese. No one wants to "remove him from the gene pool." No one has said, or at least no one should have said, that Havanese="bad" and Havana Silk Dog="good". Only that they are different.
> 
> In 1979 one breed, the Norwich Terrier, split into two breeds - The Norwich Terrier and the Norfolk Terrier. It wasn't about one being better, just different. It was so civil between the two "sides" that to this day, they share one National Parent Club. Many people have both Norwich and Norfolk Terriers, and love both.
> 
> Legal Notice: *grin* all opinons expressed are those of the author, and the author reserves the right to change his mind before you read this.
> 
> and some personal notes:
> 
> First... Greg, sorry you have been the only one answering *grin*
> 
> Second... While I haven't posted, I am part of HSDAA. Anyone who downloads forms like the membership form will find my name and email address. So, I've been silent because I've been doing other things, but I haven't been "hidden".
> 
> I"ve just spent over an hour readign this thread. I'm amazed at how civil its been. That may not be a surprise to some of you, but if you are on some of the Havanese groups at Yahoo, you'll know it isn't always that way.


----------



## ama0722

Okay something else I just thought about. We talked about the black and brown color not being in the 1963 FCI. If I remember correctly you said it hasn't been decided if that will be in the new HSD standard. I wonder how many of the HSD's are primarily black in color. I just wonder if the black and brown coming into the havanese and becoming the primary color goes along with the change of standard from HSD and havanese? If color could be linked into those traits because when I look at these pictures I see all the black again which wasn't in the 63 description.



> COLOR: Rarely completely pure white, light or dark tan, havane, gray, or white largely marked with specified colors.


what color is havane? could that be black or brown?

Is there an older cuban standard we can compare to and see how the FCI might have changed things? Could black dogs have been in before?

Just more thoughts that entered my head!
Amanda


----------



## ama0722

okay you made me look (sorry didn't catch your name) at the history of the norwich and norfolk breeds breaking off. So have european kennel clubs split the dogs into 2 varieties too or is this just an american thing since AZ dogs would be american? Did the AZ line get into the european havanese? 

It appears the norfolk and the norwich did have quite a battle on standard too- so it wasn't a clean break as suggested. From the breed ring one type was beating the other out quite often. The big difference I see is that the breeds weren't inner bred very often (people who had norfolk bred to norfolk, etc) where as it appears the havanese and the HSD were inner bred.

Just noting some differences from a quick reading!
Amanda


----------



## tehashavanese

ama0722 said:


> okay you made me look (sorry didn't catch your name) at the history of the norwich and norfolk breeds breaking off. So have european kennel clubs split the dogs into 2 varieties too or is this just an american thing since AZ dogs would be american? Did the AZ line get into the european havanese?
> 
> It appears the norfolk and the norwich did have quite a battle on standard too- so it wasn't a clean break as suggested. From the breed ring one type was beating the other out quite often. The big difference I see is that the breeds weren't inner bred very often (people who had norfolk bred to norfolk, etc) where as it appears the havanese and the HSD were inner bred.
> 
> Just noting some differences from a quick reading!
> Amanda


Sorry about the name; I'm used to using my email which has a signature line. I'm Steve Harris, in Texas. I also apologize because my post didn't do the quote correctly; I'm a novice at using Forum features. *s*

I didn't mean that all the events among the Norwich/Norfolk Terrier folks were easy; just that they were able to work out their differences together.

The differences in Havanese exists in Europe as well; many years ago they imported dogs from USA that carried what some of us are callig the Arizona phenotype. While a couple of people in Europe have expressed interest -- or at least curiosity -- in the ideas behind the Havana Silk Dog, so far it is puretly an American association.

Steve


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

Melissa Miller said:


> However we ARE keeping it friendly.....this wont turn into the slug fests that take place on the lists.
> You don't have to agree. You can disagree....just do it in a way that won't give me a headache.
> 
> What I would like to see....if someone wants to debate what they are doing..is some facts
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> I would LOVE to see this discussion stay friendly. It IS a discussion. Thats what i love about this forum. You can have differences of opinion but still have a healthy conversation. A debate on the facts...thats a great idea Melissa.
> I have learned sooo much in the last few days.You all have asked questions i would never have thought of. thanks everyone!!
Click to expand...


----------



## marjrc

I agree, Shannon, Julia, Melissa, Steve... and everyone else that has commented on how civil this discussion is (for the most part) and how very educational. I'm learning a LOT! 

Greg, thank you sooooo much for the time you've been taking answering all the questions members have had and for posting those 4 pictures. Like Amanda, I would love a rundown of sorts as to what some of the differences are. I do see that the Hav is longer than taller by more than the HSD and that it seems bigger/heavier. Other than that, I'm not sure. 

Amanda, you have some GREAT questions and comments and I really appreciate you, and others, not being afraid to poke a little bit and ask. This is a great opportunity for picking experts' and novices' brains and basing our own opinions on those as opposed to flaming and insulting - which gets us nowhere. I suggest we ignore the few insults that have whizzed by now and then during this thread. They are few, I hope. (Still haven't managed to read ALL 40 pages yet!! lol). 

The mailing lists could take a lesson from us. :biggrin1: 

I'm afraid I can't comment on anything yet. I am still learning.


----------



## ama0722

Marj,

I agree, I just want to learn more! I have thought about doing confirmation for quite sometime with the next puppy (I am just not sure I am cut out to breed!) and this just sparks my interest way more! I have a few friends with other breeds and it does seem to be more clear to see the differences in their dogs. My friend just had a vizsla litter and when she was going over them for show potential, it was easy for me to see the differences as she pointed them out. Havanese with all their hair seem naturally harder to see some of the differences. 

I think all of us pet owners also find this interesting because it affects the health of our breed too. If there really is away to get away from all of those things that plague our breed ofcourse we should! 

Another thing that seems concerning is we understand there are bad breeders out there that will breed dogs that have health problems or maybe they just dont health test to see it, etc. Are judges really pointing dogs with CD? 

Amanda


----------



## Melissa Miller

Greg said:


> I'm happy to discuss the facts.


Greg, you have been discussing the facts. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. I was talking about the people who disagree with the HSD. I have only seen things about leaving HCA and about the Cuban standard. I have not seen any real facts presented as to why what you want to do won't work. I am asking some people who disagree why they disagree just for my own info. I want to see why people dont like it after they take away the fact that HCA people are involved and they may not like some people involved.


----------



## good buddy

Greg said:


> ok gang. I put together an album to try to show the differences. I was at a dog show last weekend and a friend took these pictures. There are 4. One is a Havanese and the other 3 are HSDs. Can you see the differences?
> 
> I hope this link comes thru
> 
> http://www.havaneseforum.com/photopost531/showgallery.php?cat=549


I've been quietly reading through all these posts for the last few days. I've been keeping quiet on my feelings while I sort through them. I don't like what is happening and I find some things about it offensive. My new Havanese puppy is very young so I don't know yet how he will eventually look. Whether he comes out like his Dam or his Sire...or a combo of the two--I would consider myself quite lucky! I did take a long hard look at many Havanese before choosing my breeder and I could easily see there were different looks to many of them. Some I liked, some I didn't and it wasn't just about the color of the dogs. I gravitated toward a few different breeders and recognised they were all breeding from similar lines. My boy should turn out with the look and HEALTH I am desiring. When you suddenly split the Havanese breed into two separate groups and claim those with better health and a more balanced bone structure are HSD's and those with broad faces and CD are Havanese~that is insulting to me. I'm proud of the breed I chose. I'm proud that the HCA is working toward a healthier Havanese in the future and I applaud the many breeders that are working towards this as well by evaluating their dogs and getting the appropriate health testing done.

When you are working towards separating off some of my dog's genetics and history to get the HSD breed established....then you are saying my dog is a combination of the HSD (breed) and the "Arizona" gene (which you claim is responsible for serious health issues). In effect, you are saying my dog is a poor designer breed. :brick:


----------



## irnfit

Aren't their flaws, or differences in all breeds? If every dog in the ring was the same, then every dog would win 1st place. These differences are what make it a competition. I can understand wanting to breed out health related problems, but to say that just because of looks these should be two different breeds is where the problems lies. Whether they are called Havanese or Havana Silk Dogs, they still fall into the standard that is written.

After looking at the comparisons that Greg posted, mine fall somewhere in between both. And that is within standard. Which doesn't mean a whole lot since I am not breeding or showing. I bought Havanese and that's what I got. So far, they have no health problems and exhibit all the wonderful traits of a Havanese. They are funny, mischievious, smart, affectionate, athetic little dogs. Bottom line is I love these dogs. I have Havanese and not HSD's. So what! 

I would just hope that Havanese breeders continue with their quest for a healthier dog and strive for a better standard. These dogs are too precious not to have their best interest at heart. eace:


----------



## Melissa Miller

I was talking more about size differences. The havs can go up and down like yo yos and when I look at other rings, while I know there are differences, most of the dogs look the same size. 

But I guess since I am not into those breeds I don't see the difference as easily. 

Thanks for posting Steve. I have been reading the other lists, and while I am enjoying it immensely, it wont be like that here. I find the show over there kind of like a good dose of reality tv.


----------



## mckennasedona

I looked at the photos and all I really noticed, from a novice pet owner point of view is a seeming difference in coat texture and slightly different height. It doesn't really look to me like a totally different breed. Again, it would be easier if each dog was standing in the exact same position, same lighting etc. (I know that's tough because whatever else they may be, they are dogs.  )

Of course, it would be easier in person but I kinda doubt I'll hop on a plane to the east coast for a hands on lesson. 

Thanks for the photos Greg. That was kind of you to do.

Susan


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

I, personally, just want a healthy dog. I really dont care (at this point) if its considered a HSD or HAV. For me, one who is never going to show dogs, i will try & base what dogs i get on that. Good temperment & health is what matters to me.


----------



## The Fussy Puppy Gang

good buddy said:


> ...When you suddenly split the Havanese breed into two separate groups and claim those with better health and a more balanced bone structure are HSD's and those with broad faces and CD are Havanese~that is insulting to me. ...
> When you are working towards separating off some of my dog's genetics and history to get the HSD breed established....then you are saying my dog is a combination of the HSD (breed) and the "Arizona" gene (which you claim is responsible for serious health issues). In effect, you are saying my dog is a poor designer breed. :brick:


Christy,

Why is that insulting? Every purebred today started out as some sort of designer breed. Heck, the Chesapeake Bay Retriever breed began with two Newfoundlands. The Chinese Crested started out as an African hairless breed that was downsized by the Chinese. And that's just two of the hundreds of purebred choices out there. Where's the insult?

I have a Havanese. He's definitely lower and longer than the HSD samples Greg posted for us. My dog's head and tail carriage match the Havanese sample, too. Do I care that my dog is a Havanese instead of a HSD? No. I'll only care if it means he suffers from the mild CD that I can see he has, or any other health issue related to the CD. Then, you bet I'll care.

I don't understand the ruckus this has caused. To me, it's great that one group of breeders is standing up for stricter standards that they can't seem to pass in the HCA.

It would be wonderful if both the Havanese and HSD camps could peacefully co-exist. If the HCA began to demand their registered dogs PASS the health tests and not just take them. If breeders and owners could get past the ego of who's better and instead focus on helping their breed become healthier.

I mean, everyone wants what's best for the dog, right?

Wanda


----------



## marbenv

I totally agree, Wanda. Shouldn't be taken as an insult at all. Every breeder SHOULD be concerned with the health of the dogs they are breeding and it appears that there are those who are not. 

Marsha


----------



## Julie

You are going to have breeders who are concerned about health issues and test,and those that don't...in every breed.So is the nature of people in general.

To me,the biggest difference in the pictures Greg posted was Photo1 and photo4.Photo 1 had a smaller dog with hair that looked like a maltese or a shih-tsu.....it did have what I would call a U SHAPE when you look across the topline..meaning from head to tail set(a U shape).This is the same line that Keebler has.Photo 4 showed a dog with a bigger body/head and was just all around bigger and fluffy looking,with an angled topline,like a backwards checkmark.Most havanese I have seen look like photos 2 and 3 to me.They look like a combination of the dogs on each end(1&4).There seems to be a difference in the havana silks then as well?Otherwise why does 1 ,2 ,3 all look different?


----------



## Julie

Shannon,
You must care whether your dogs are havana silks or havanese,or why did you submit their DNA for testing?
They are spayed and neutered right?If so,it wouldn't matter anyway....?


----------



## Melissa Miller

Julie I think the DNA is helping with the research, so it wouldn't matter if they are spayed or neutered.


----------



## DAJsMom

I'd be interested to hear from some of the breeders who disagree with the HSDA position, either on conformation and health issues, or just on the way the disagreements on these things have been handled. 

It's still confusing to me. Buying certified organic lettuce may get me a better product, but it will still be lettuce, not broccoli. It still seems to me that switching to Havana Silk while still showing and registering as havanese is like trying to be organic lettuce and broccoli at the same time. I guess that if you don't do that you lose the association with AKC. How has this been handled with other breeds? Have they split and still shown and registered as the same breed for some period of time?


----------



## DAJsMom

One more question. Maybe I've missed it in here somewhere, but what is the purpose of the evaluation for a dog to be registered as HSD? Is it just to make sure the dog has straight legs? Or conforms to the standard that hasn't been finalized yet? What if a dog has straight legs but isn't long-legged, or doesn't have quite the right tail set, or it's coat isn't quite right but it's taken and passed all it's health testing and submitted DNA?


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

I submitted DNA and had them evaluated per my breeders request. She asked me to do it, said it was important to HER. That is the only reason. Dreamer has had a few litters. Yes, they are both fixed.


----------



## Greg

Julie said:


> You are going to have breeders who are concerned about health issues and test,and those that don't...in every breed.So is the nature of people in general.
> 
> To me,the biggest difference in the pictures Greg posted was Photo1 and photo4.Photo 1 had a smaller dog with hair that looked like a maltese or a shih-tsu.....it did have what I would call a U SHAPE when you look across the topline..meaning from head to tail set(a U shape).This is the same line that Keebler has.Photo 4 showed a dog with a bigger body/head and was just all around bigger and fluffy looking,with an angled topline,like a backwards checkmark.Most havanese I have seen look like photos 2 and 3 to me.They look like a combination of the dogs on each end(1&4).There seems to be a difference in the havana silks then as well?Otherwise why does 1 ,2 ,3 all look different?


HSD1 has a proper topline (I went over him personally). The picture of a Havanese shows a dwarf with no legs. The tail is tightly curled ONTO the back. The others are over the back and IF they touch it is because of the weight of the hair.


----------



## Greg

and yet the Havanese can be showin the ring with HSD1, 2 and 3 and still be correct. That's part of the problem.


----------



## Greg

DAJsMom said:


> One more question. Maybe I've missed it in here somewhere, but what is the purpose of the evaluation for a dog to be registered as HSD? Is it just to make sure the dog has straight legs? Or conforms to the standard that hasn't been finalized yet? What if a dog has straight legs but isn't long-legged, or doesn't have quite the right tail set, or it's coat isn't quite right but it's taken and passed all it's health testing and submitted DNA?


They are evaluated for type, soundness and health. The dog doesn't have to be perfect for type but if it is unsound or has curved legs, it fails and cannot be an HSD

HSD aren't long legged. They are 1/3 head and neck, 1/3 body and 1/3 legs and feet (when looking at them vertically). Each dog you see there scored very high on the evaluation and all three will be accepted pending health tests.


----------



## good buddy

The Fussy Puppy Gang said:


> Christy,
> 
> Why is that insulting? Every purebred today started out as some sort of designer breed. Heck, the Chesapeake Bay Retriever breed began with two Newfoundlands. The Chinese Crested started out as an African hairless breed that was downsized by the Chinese. And that's just two of the hundreds of purebred choices out there. Where's the insult?
> 
> Wanda


I understand what your'e saying about each breed beginning with two separate breeds and then being created into a new one. This feels different--the HSDAA is going backwards. For me, the insult is where the dogs are already accepted as Havanese and instead of adding in something else, they are subtracting something from a previously established breed. This feels like something they've been trying to do from inside the HCA for the entire breed but since they can't get the HCA to move that direction they are now doing it on their own and calling it another breed but claiming the origins that we currently accept for the Havanese.

I do want what's best for the breed. That is why it was so important to me to buy from a breeder that health tests her breeding stock. That is also why I will neuter my dog when he's older. He is precious to me but isn't breeding quality. (There's lots more reasons why I would neuter anyways  )


----------



## ama0722

I looked up on the AKC how to go about starting a new breed. I am going at the end of this month to watch a friend compete with a new AKC breed accepted in the herding class. He has Beauceron and his little puppy is now 6 months and will be in her first show.

http://www.akc.org/reg/fss_details.cfm

I think I see a difference but what is harder to digest is that some dogs from the same given litter will be registered as havanese and some will be registered as HSD. It just seems like any AKC breed could do that and sculpt traits that they prefer like I said earlier with the goldens (look at some great agility goldens v. ring goldens) same goes with BC's. Also a personal examination is one of the requirements. I think that is an obvious red flag too. Couldn't this be just a sign of making a varation of a current breed?

I just have trouble thinking there is really a seperate breed rather there are just disagreements about the standard. I think it is hard to prove because of the breed's history being so varied. I read that some of the people feel that other registeries other than AKC feel that dogs were mixed too.

I also think it is hard to go back and really see what is in the cuban history because I kind of see what Julie says about the coat difference too. When we look at some of the cuban pictures it doesn't look like the coat was like that. I mean I know with AKC show dogs here they are getting proper care of their coat and probably living a different lifestyle than the cuban pet but I would argue that the cuban dogs we see in pictures would closely resemble the havanese photo of number 4 especally when you look at coat.

I like the idea of how heavy the HSD wants to be on health testing and hope a lot of HCA breeders continue that in their breeding program too. With all the money raised for heart by breeders and pet owners, maybe it won't be too long before they can dna test a dog for CD.

Amanda


----------



## Havtahava

Christy, as the breeder of your puppy, I urge you to not be offended. This has nothing to do with your puppy, or my dogs or anyone else who doesn't want to be included. The HSDAA are trying to preserve a particular look. I don't consider it an exclusion or a slam on my dogs and hope you don't either. I health test my dogs, make sure I have dogs of sound temperament, ensure they have the critical elements of breed type, and make sure I stick to a protocol to do the very best I can by the breed. Some of mine may qualify as an HSD, but that is neither here nor there if I don't attempt to find out - and I'm not at that point now and not sure if I ever will be. 

In the long run, I think this will be better for everyone and wish it didn't cause so much upset among people. When it settles down, and there is more understanding of what is going on, I am hoping it will be good for the greater majority.


----------



## Julie

Greg,
Is that all the things that are wrong with photo4 havanese?Just the CD?Otherwise would it be considered a good specimen of the havanese?

On the other 3 photos 1,2,3 you have marked as Havana silks....but really isn't just number1?Otherwise it looks like the others are what I would call good quality havanese?Do you see alot of variances in those 3 dogs too?Particuliarly coat type?Do you think it possible that maltese or shih-tsu got mixed into the breed?Seems as though their coat type shows up here on these dogs.


----------



## Julie

I feel like Christy too.......


----------



## Greg

Julie said:


> Greg,
> Is that all the things that are wrong with photo4 havanese?Just the CD?Otherwise would it be considered a good specimen of the havanese?
> 
> On the other 3 photos 1,2,3 you have marked as Havana silks....but really isn't just number1?Otherwise it looks like the others are what I would call good quality havanese?Do you see alot of variances in those 3 dogs too?Particuliarly coat type?Do you think it possible that maltese or shih-tsu got mixed into the breed?Seems as though their coat type shows up here on these dogs.


The first dog is a dwarf. And a "reputable" breeder thought the dog was a good representation of the breed. That's our entire point. The other 3 are different in style but not in type. It probably takes an experienced eye but for most breeders the differences are obvious.


----------



## Julie

Oh,well see....good thing I'm not a judge or a breeder!:laugh:I had that all wrong!I liked the 2 in the middle the best,as they appear most like what my "idea"of the havanese is.....photos2&3


----------



## Greg

good buddy said:


> I understand what your'e saying about each breed beginning with two separate breeds and then being created into a new one. This feels different--the HSDAA is going backwards. For me, the insult is where the dogs are already accepted as Havanese and instead of adding in something else, they are subtracting something from a previously established breed. This feels like something they've been trying to do from inside the HCA for the entire breed but since they can't get the HCA to move that direction they are now doing it on their own and calling it another breed but claiming the origins that we currently accept for the Havanese.
> 
> I do want what's best for the breed. That is why it was so important to me to buy from a breeder that health tests her breeding stock. That is also why I will neuter my dog when he's older. He is precious to me but isn't breeding quality. (There's lots more reasons why I would neuter anyways  )


It's not really backwards. It's a natural progression. Think of it this way. As we've asked breeders to breed away from CD dogs, many have resisted. When you breed away from the health problems, you breed towards a type (shape) of dog that is dissimilar from their own. And they don't like that type. So they continue to breed diseased dogs. So why not take that type, that breeds true, and start a seperate breed? I think the worst thing that's happening is a large percentage of the dogs with straight legs just left to start their own breed


----------



## Julie

good buddy said:


> I understand what your'e saying about each breed beginning with two separate breeds and then being created into a new one. This feels different--the HSDAA is going backwards. For me, the insult is where the dogs are already accepted as Havanese and instead of adding in something else, they are subtracting something from a previously established breed. This feels like something they've been trying to do from inside the HCA for the entire breed but since they can't get the HCA to move that direction they are now doing it on their own and calling it another breed but claiming the origins that we currently accept for the Havanese.
> 
> I do want what's best for the breed. That is why it was so important to me to buy from a breeder that health tests her breeding stock. That is also why I will neuter my dog when he's older. He is precious to me but isn't breeding quality. (There's lots more reasons why I would neuter anyways  )


This is how I feel too.That's what I meant above....


----------



## Greg

Julie said:


> Greg,
> Is that all the things that are wrong with photo4 havanese?Just the CD?Otherwise would it be considered a good specimen of the havanese?
> 
> On the other 3 photos 1,2,3 you have marked as Havana silks....but really isn't just number1?Otherwise it looks like the others are what I would call good quality havanese?Do you see alot of variances in those 3 dogs too?Particuliarly coat type?Do you think it possible that maltese or shih-tsu got mixed into the breed?Seems as though their coat type shows up here on these dogs.


no there are many things wrong with that dog. The disease is just the biggest thing


----------



## Greg

ama0722 said:


> I looked up on the AKC how to go about starting a new breed. I am going at the end of this month to watch a friend compete with a new AKC breed accepted in the herding class. He has Beauceron and his little puppy is now 6 months and will be in her first show.
> 
> http://www.akc.org/reg/fss_details.cfm
> 
> I think I see a difference but what is harder to digest is that some dogs from the same given litter will be registered as havanese and some will be registered as HSD. It just seems like any AKC breed could do that and sculpt traits that they prefer like I said earlier with the goldens (look at some great agility goldens v. ring goldens) same goes with BC's. Also a personal examination is one of the requirements. I think that is an obvious red flag too. Couldn't this be just a sign of making a varation of a current breed?
> 
> I just have trouble thinking there is really a seperate breed rather there are just disagreements about the standard. I think it is hard to prove because of the breed's history being so varied. I read that some of the people feel that other registeries other than AKC feel that dogs were mixed too.
> 
> I also think it is hard to go back and really see what is in the cuban history because I kind of see what Julie says about the coat difference too. When we look at some of the cuban pictures it doesn't look like the coat was like that. I mean I know with AKC show dogs here they are getting proper care of their coat and probably living a different lifestyle than the cuban pet but I would argue that the cuban dogs we see in pictures would closely resemble the havanese photo of number 4 especally when you look at coat.
> 
> I like the idea of how heavy the HSD wants to be on health testing and hope a lot of HCA breeders continue that in their breeding program too. With all the money raised for heart by breeders and pet owners, maybe it won't be too long before they can dna test a dog for CD.
> 
> Amanda


We aren't "taking" the origins away from the Havanese. We just believe the Havanese is a cross between our dogs and something else. The Havanese's origins are US.


----------



## ama0722

Greg- when you refer to that dog as a dwarf is it just his legs or are you refering to him having CD too? I know dwarfism with dogs can just mean short but straight legs right?

But aren't there a lot of havanese with straight legs too? I just have trouble thinking that judges are feeling these legs that are curved or bowed out and are okay with it?

Is CD the biggest health problem with havanese by far?


----------



## Julie

If the majority of the havanese breeders understood the whole health thing and CD etc.....wouldn't you have the majority of breeders with you instead of against you?
I can see where the backyard breeders/puppy mills etc.wouldn't be for what you are doing,requiring health testing etc.but then they wouldn't belong to the HCA or be "FOR" the havanese breed either-just for the money.You would have this anyway,but are you guys that are moving on actually the minority?Or the majority?


----------



## Greg

ama0722 said:


> Greg- when you refer to that dog as a dwarf is it just his legs or are you refering to him having CD too? I know dwarfism with dogs can just mean short but straight legs right?
> 
> But aren't there a lot of havanese with straight legs too? I just have trouble thinking that judges are feeling these legs that are curved or bowed out and are okay with it?
> 
> Is CD the biggest health problem with havanese by far?


yes CD/ACD are the largest health problems the breed faces. CD or bowing is much worse. I'll post some examples of that next


----------



## Greg

I've added pix of dogs with CD. This is with the breeder's permission. It has taken her 10 years to breed it out of her line. http://www.havaneseforum.com/photopost531/showphoto.php?photo=886&cat=549


----------



## Melissa Miller

Greg I want to say thank you again. At least your TRYING and we are discussing this in somewhat of a normal manner. You are going way past what anyone would expect. While Im still on the fence, I have to say my opinion from when this thread started to now has changed some. 

I still cant figure out why I have not seen the argument against what you are doing. I see a lot of the "you betrayed the HCA" and you are "giving up on our breed". But I have seen no one provide a good debate on the health issues you bring up. I would love to hear/see it but no one seems to be speaking. Who wouldn't want to stop cure CD? I am also shocked at the fact some breeders are breeding this way. So all of these people who are outraged at what you are doing, where is their debate? Not the emotional debate, but the facts and statistics. 

I am glad the chatter from the lists tonight has not made it over here, I hope it stays that way. 

Melissa "still on the fence" Miller


----------



## ama0722

Greg, 
Thanks for posting it. It seems obvious with some of the dogs that you see pictures of that are very bad but with this dog the right leg seems much worst. When you say curved and asymetrical do you just mean the one leg?

Also when I was reading about CD it is a recessive trait so is it taking so long to get out of her dog's line because she is breeding it to other dogs that are carriers? Are only some of the puppies with CD?

Amanda


----------



## Julie

I don't have any problem seeing the curved legs.I studied those type pictures though,before I bought my havanese.Thank goodness!I think the other photos are harder to tell just by a quick look like we doing on here...course angles/differences in how close the camera is to the dog etc.


----------



## Greg

ama0722 said:


> Greg,
> Thanks for posting it. It seems obvious with some of the dogs that you see pictures of that are very bad but with this dog the right leg seems much worst. When you say curved and asymetrical do you just mean the one leg?
> 
> Also when I was reading about CD it is a recessive trait so is it taking so long to get out of her dog's line because she is breeding it to other dogs that are carriers? Are only some of the puppies with CD?
> 
> Amanda


CD is a symptom of OS (Ockham Syndrome). OS is a polygenetic disease characterized by at least 113 different genetic markers. Its main symptoms are CD, Cataracts, Liver Shunts, and Heart problems. They run in a group. You can have a dog that is asymtomatic for CD and still have OS. However, the main indicator of OS is CD. So, by breeding away from CD......the total health of the dog improves. However, the look of the dog changes too. They turn into dogs with long muzzles, more neck, more tail..........you know the story


----------



## Greg

Julie said:


> If the majority of the havanese breeders understood the whole health thing and CD etc.....wouldn't you have the majority of breeders with you instead of against you?
> I can see where the backyard breeders/puppy mills etc.wouldn't be for what you are doing,requiring health testing etc.but then they wouldn't belong to the HCA or be "FOR" the havanese breed either-just for the money.You would have this anyway,but are you guys that are moving on actually the minority?Or the majority?


you would think so but it isn't true. That's the stunning news of the day. All the excuses for breeding a CD dog. Or when you question them they just attack you for pointing out they are putting a diseased dog back into the gene pool.


----------



## ama0722

Greg,
Other than looks changing, has there been any health problems from breeding the HSD's? I would imagine the people with HSD's have breed at least a few litters before wanting to start a new breed. 

Amanda


----------



## Greg

I don't know if I would say we are encountering health problems. This isn't something we just started. Although I've only been breeding this direction for about 5 yrs, many have been doing so for 10 yrs or more. They encountered health problems as they bred away....but slowly the issues disappeared, the breed type changed and one day while others were making fun of our dogs the light went off and we said "yep, they aren't Havanese." 

Interestingly, Dorothy was the first to breed away from the AZ dogs.....it's just that nobody knew she was doing it at the time.


----------



## irnfit

Greg, one thing that has me distressed is that it sounds like HSDAA is saying all Havanese breeders are purposely breeding dogs with CD as well as the health problems related with it. It can't be all of them.

Also, did you remember where the post was about the HSD breeding stock? Otherwise, I'll have to just start at the beginning again. Thanks


----------



## Greg

irnfit said:


> Greg, one thing that has me distressed is that it sounds like HSDAA is saying all Havanese breeders are purposely breeding dogs with CD as well as the health problems related with it. It can't be all of them.
> 
> Also, did you remember where the post was about the HSD breeding stock? Otherwise, I'll have to just start at the beginning again. Thanks


we've never said all Havanese breeders are purposely breeding CD dogs. But far too many of them are doing it and hiding under all sorts of excuses.

The foundation stock for the HSDAA are selected by passing a physical evaluation, having passed all their health tests and submitting DNA...also, they cannot have parents who have been submitted. Otherwise their parents would be the foundation. we have 30 foundation stock animals with very diverse pedigrees.


----------



## TnTWalter

*You all HAVE to read the yahoo*

thread. It's quite eye-opening....

of course continue to post here as well!!

:jaw:

Trish


----------



## Elin

I'm not really for or against anything yet. I'm just trying to learn as much as possible here. 

If the HSD becomes a separate breed, could that make the health problems of the Havanese become worse? If you remove the dogs with long, straight legs, and the Havanese are left with the heavier built, short legged dogs, wouldn't the percentage of Havanese with CD and OS become much higher than it is now?


----------



## ama0722

I am glad to hear there are diverse pedigrees and not all coming from the same parents. So if you get a HSD puppy, it can't be part of the stock because it's parents are?

Trish- you are right. I just read a few post that apparently a lot of the HSD's have health problems too. Even some of those breeders were breeding dogs with CD... yikes. I am thinking maybe CD isn't always easy to tell?

I wonder why none of the breeders are coming here to explain their views to all of us? On the yahoo group, they are very passionate!

Amanda


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

Melissa Miller said:


> I am glad the chatter from the lists tonight has not made it over here, I hope it stays that way.
> Melissa "still on the fence" Miller


This is probably a dumb question but i have heard a few people mention 'the lists'. What does that mean?? Whose lists? Thanks


----------



## marbenv

which yahoo thread? When I did a search on Yahoo groups for Havanese their were about ten thousand different groups!

Marsha


----------



## TnTWalter

*Man my post didn't show up....sigh....here's the yahoo list...*

It was a great post too! My computer froze....too tired to re-write....

here's the list I'm referring to...there are many more...

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/havanese/

Trish


----------



## marbenv

Thanks Trish,

"my membership is awaiting approval" 

Marsha


----------



## dboudreau

If you want interesting reading try this yahoo group too.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/havaneseshowforum/

A little too much for me. I stopped reading the posts days ago.


----------



## Melissa Miller

The two listed are a good start. When it gets heated, it can flood your inbox. Thats why I started the forum to begin with, I thought it was a tad more organized. 

I will say yesterdays posts along with some other info I received knocked me off my fence. Im happy here with my two Havanese. I believe we can continue to improve the breed with both health and educating the judges about the standard.

Melissa "Happy to own Havanese" Miller


----------



## Julie

I hadn't been to that yahoo group for awhile.....till I decided to see what was up.It seems that Greg just used Doc's words(for the most part)to state his position here on this forum.When I read Doc's post though,it was more thorough....
"what is up with this havana silk dog thing"
June 13 Doc (might as well get it from the source.)She gives the answers I wanted to know.


----------



## Greg

Greg said:


> Doc asked that we crosspost this.............I figure this list is full of Havanese lovers too........so here it is in consectutive posts:


Julie,

You'll notice I didn't "just use Doc's words" I completely copied her post and gave her credit. Your post might make it appear I've been disingenuous in trying to say her words were my own. And that's not the fact.


----------



## Greg

They don't have to go to Yahoo to read it. They can read it right here starting with #63


----------



## Julie

Oh ya.....that's a start,but the "let's get to brass tacks post " also needs to be posted.After I read those 2 posts,I don't think I have any more questions.I respect her and what she (Doc)is trying to do.

..I just found it almost "odd" that your replies to our questions almost mimicked those 2 posts I mentioned......It doesn't matter really,other then people are gushing saying thanks to you etc.(me too)when really I should of just read those 2 posts and thanked Doc.....why do I need a "middle-man?"

I don't mean it as a slam to you,I'm just being honest.

Seems like frustration and an in-ability to get ALL breeders to see CD and quit breeding those dogs,lead to this break off of the HCA.Simple as that.


----------



## Melissa Miller

She lost me when she attacked publicly by name breeders on the lists. Sadly you don't see all of their responses. You can write it off to tone of email, but it was pretty easy to catch her tone. Im sure no one wants every mistake they ever made brought out to light. I am sure there are some breeders who are breeding CD dogs and THAT is not acceptable However, not everyone deserved to come under that wrath.


----------



## Julie

I also wanted to say,after reading those posts by Doc,I also feel that I could get behind a group of people who want what is best for the havanese.If that means that eventually there could be a seperate breed of havanese,called havana silks,then so be it..........

All breeders,no matter what you are breeding can learn from a shake-up like this.Working together can get you far,working against each other and not being "open" to the possiblilites that "yours are NOT the best" will get you no where.

The saddest part of it all,it is the pet owners that are the ones who pay for the mistakes of the breeders.Everyone in the HCA and the HSDAA needs to remember that.........


----------



## jolynn

I haven't gone to the Yahoo list yet; but I guess the jist of this whole thing is that Skiver is probably one kind of Havanese, and that Seaclaid could be another? That could explain the difference in size, the diffence in the way their face looks, the coats, etc? Skiver is more petite looking in the face, and his coat is way different from Shaw's. And Shaw is going to be a lot bigger than Sky is. And with the Silken Havanese, chocolates are not a part of them, because of the coloring and the nose color?

And I thought I was confused before....


----------



## windfallhavs

Your two havanese may look different but that does not make them a different breed. It means that you bought puppies from two breeders who breed a different "style" of havanese, but they are both still havanese. I just want to say for the record that there are many HCA breeders who do health testing, soap their dogs and breed straight fronts....that does not mean they are all going to jump on the HSDAA bandwagon. Funny, before I started breeding I thought these issues were black and white...they're not. You can do all the health testing in the world and breed straight fronts...and that does not mean that you are never going to have a health issues in a litter. Whether you are HCA or HSDAA doesn't matter. So all I can say on this issue is just pick a breeder who you are comfortable with and who does all of the recommended health testing and make sure the parents of your puppy passed those tests. If you prefer the HSD look...then go to a HSD breeder. But don't think for a minute that all HCA breeders are out there haphazardly breeding unhealthy dogs because that is just not the case.


----------



## Missy

Oh My! this conversation is very hard to follow and much of it is going way over my head. Greg, thank you for taking the time to explain so thouroughly. I think what it does show is that both sides really love this breed (these breeds) as we love our individual dogs. 

For me the beauty of this breed is their personality and the fact that I am not allergic (I'm even allergic to poodles) 

I love that my boys are beautiful with straight legs- but they do seem like different dogs- Jasper is taller and has a slighter bone structure with a curlier coat and Cash is shorter longer with a more barreled chest and his coat is softer and easier to care for. But I love that there are differences in this breed and as a pet owner I also love that I was able to find slightly larger than standard Hav's (15 Lb'ers) for us that just worked better. 

I understand the passion on both sides but I feel it would be better for the breed in general to combine efforts. 

very interesting reading.


----------



## mckennasedona

> pick a breeder who you are comfortable with and who does all of the recommended health testing


This is the best advice I've seen so far. No one will breed the perfect pup, be it Havanese, Havana Silk or some future combination of the two. CD might be bred out (and hooray if that happens) but that doesn't mean the end of any and all problems. There are thyroid issues, mitral valve issues, disk problems and a whole host of other *might happen, could happen"'s out there. All you can do is pick your breeder as carefully as you can and love your pup!

Susan


----------



## Olliesmom

Can someone please help me find the posts from "DOC" - I am at a loss here!

Thx so much..


----------



## dboudreau

Posts # 63-69 in this thread.


----------



## marbenv

Well said Windfall!! That was my point about two days ago. The bottom line is pick a good breeder of the type you want and get the records of the parents healthtesting.soaped pics, etc. That's what I'm gonna do. I just have to fee.l comfortable that I have a good breeder. It's not very clear-cut or black and white. (no pun intended )


----------



## Greg

Melissa Miller said:


> She lost me when she attacked publicly by name breeders on the lists. Sadly you don't see all of their responses. You can write it off to tone of email, but it was pretty easy to catch her tone. Im sure no one wants every mistake they ever made brought out to light. I am sure there are some breeders who are breeding CD dogs and THAT is not acceptable However, not everyone deserved to come under that wrath.


I think Doc's fed up with all the attacks she's received from many of the people she called out. I can understand why she called them out by name when I also know they have criticized her specifically too. I don't think anyone can lob bombs from the background without having to show their dirty laundry as well. You'll be hard pressed to show me someone who has done more for this breed, both with their time and finances, than Doc. Because of that she's earned more "list capital" than she spent in those two posts.


----------



## Greg

Julie said:


> Oh ya.....that's a start,but the "let's get to brass tacks post " also needs to be posted.After I read those 2 posts,I don't think I have any more questions.I respect her and what she (Doc)is trying to do.
> 
> ..I just found it almost "odd" that your replies to our questions almost mimicked those 2 posts I mentioned......It doesn't matter really,other then people are gushing saying thanks to you etc.(me too)when really I should of just read those 2 posts and thanked Doc.....why do I need a "middle-man?"
> 
> I don't mean it as a slam to you,I'm just being honest.
> 
> Seems like frustration and an in-ability to get ALL breeders to see CD and quit breeding those dogs,lead to this break off of the HCA.Simple as that.


my replies to your posts came after the first post and before the second. My replies other than the one where I give her credit are all my own thoughts and words. Because she feels the same doesn't lessen either of our creditbility. Would it also come as a shock that we are both good friends as well?


----------



## Greg

jolynn said:


> I haven't gone to the Yahoo list yet; but I guess the jist of this whole thing is that Skiver is probably one kind of Havanese, and that Seaclaid could be another? That could explain the difference in size, the diffence in the way their face looks, the coats, etc? Skiver is more petite looking in the face, and his coat is way different from Shaw's. And Shaw is going to be a lot bigger than Sky is. And with the Silken Havanese, chocolates are not a part of them, because of the coloring and the nose color?
> 
> And I thought I was confused before....


Chocolate color is ok just with black pigment.


----------



## Greg

windfallhavs said:


> Your two havanese may look different but that does not make them a different breed. It means that you bought puppies from two breeders who breed a different "style" of havanese, but they are both still havanese. I just want to say for the record that there are many HCA breeders who do health testing, soap their dogs and breed straight fronts....that does not mean they are all going to jump on the HSDAA bandwagon. Funny, before I started breeding I thought these issues were black and white...they're not. You can do all the health testing in the world and breed straight fronts...and that does not mean that you are never going to have a health issues in a litter. Whether you are HCA or HSDAA doesn't matter. So all I can say on this issue is just pick a breeder who you are comfortable with and who does all of the recommended health testing and make sure the parents of your puppy passed those tests. If you prefer the HSD look...then go to a HSD breeder. But don't think for a minute that all HCA breeders are out there haphazardly breeding unhealthy dogs because that is just not the case.


This is true and I want to make sure everyone understands that I agree with these sentiments.


----------



## aradelat

I took my dog to an orthopedic specialist this morning because Doc said he had CD after a cursory exam on his legs. Guess what? The surgeon said my dog's legs were slightly bowed but within the norm. More importantly, he did not think it a "defective gene" or any hereditary condition was at fault.
If the breed standard calls for perfectly straight legs, so be it. But there should be more study on CD, which the orthopedic surgeon who looked at my dog's leg says is simply a loose term for bowed legs that cause problems.
It may not be the type of problem some in the Havanese community have made it out to be.
I am very upset that Diane Klumb and Doc told me, very inaccurately it turns out,that my dog has severe problems. I wonder what the agenda is. Can anybody help here?


----------



## Greg

I'm glad to hear your Vet doesn't think your dog has CD. However, I doubt he has the experience with the breed to say they are within the norm for the breed. I've had 3 of my dogs legs x-rayed and neither Doc nor the OFA could say if they were in the norm. This is because there haven't been enough dogs submitted to set a baseline. So while I'm glad to hear your vet is happy with the results of the x-ray, maybe you should submit them to OFA for use in their study.


----------



## Julie

I also agree with what Windfall Havs posted.
It really ALL come backs to health testing...over and over again.


----------



## Julie

If your orthopedic specialist says they are within the norm-----CELEBRATE!Don't waste your time being upset........everyone makes mistakes and maybe they just saw something different.


----------



## JASHavanese

Olliesmom said:


> Great explanation...to put it in another context - the "arizona" havs could just as easily start their own club if they so chose to! And because there are 2 clubs doesn't mean that as the AKC describe havanese - all are havanese!
> 
> I must say tho -and I will sometime follow-up w/ pix....when I picked up Autin I was shocked how different he looked from Ollie - and I do mean different. When I tell people they are the same breed they look at me like I am a nut case (of course that might actually be true!!) The facial structure is completely different - the body shape is like two different breeds and the tail is completely different in the way in which it normally stays - Ollies tail only comes up when he is happy and when he is just walking around it can be down or up where Autin's tail is up 99% of the time just perky and flowing with a soft rounded curve...the ONLY time it is down is if he is getting scolded which we all know is not often cause they just look so sad when you do it!!!! And the coats are completely diff.
> 
> Tho the bottom line is this .....THEY think they are brothers and that's all that counts to me! And one is just as adorable as the other!!!!!!!!!! :bounce:


Catherine, your Austin looks different because his breeder (me) chose that style of breeding. That doesn't mean he's the only correct type of Havanese, it simply means that after checking the health and temperament of the dogs, that's what I bred. I'm very careful about breeding away from any health problem however I won't join this new club even though I was invited into it.
Your puppy came from a bitch I bought from Greg and we're great friends however we have HUGE differences about this new breed or club or whatever they want to call it. I call him the grand wizard of the new club and say it lovingly. I also say a few other things to him but this post would get deleted if I put them here. ound: There are things we agree on and there have been screaming matches between us on the phone, however through it all, we care about each other and stay close. 
I think most good breeders are breeding away from health issues and they're breeding HAVANESE. There will never be a breed where you'll find only good breeders. Some are in it for money, some in it for the love of the breed. 
Spend a lot of time talking to a breeder before you buy, check the soaped pictures of their dogs, make sure all health testing is done, and make your decisions from there.


----------



## aradelat

We are celebrating!! We were so worried. But I'm concerned about an overconcern about health issues. All curved legs aren't CD. Not all CD -- and probably very little -- is caused by defective genes. That's what I learned from the orthopedic specialist today.
A note to Greg: Although I wanted X-rays of my dog's legs, the doctor said it would be a waste of time and money. He said it would only show a slight curving of the leg and would not show any damage to joints because he did not think there was any.


----------



## Dawna

I think personal attacks on a public forum knocked quite a few of us off that fence, Melissa. On lists where some aren't members and can't respond. Yessss I know they can respond on other lists, but that doesn't do anything to alter the impression left on individual list members who just don't know any better.


----------



## JASHavanese

Greg said:


> We can't protect the whole breed, but we can protect a portion of it. If you want a healthy dog, get one from someone who health tests and can provide you soaped pics of both parents. Otherwise look somewhere else


Let's go one step further. Don't just look at the soaped pictures, look at pictures of the dog standing naturally. See if the legs still go straight or if the pasterns start to come together. The pastern would probably be the equal of your wrists. Do the legs go straight down in a natural stance or do they come together at the 'wrists'. I'd personally run, not walk, away from a dog that's front did that yet in a soaped picture a person can appear to make the legs look great.


----------



## Greg

It's the personal attacks I've had to endure for several years now that knocked me off the fence too.


----------



## JASHavanese

Greg said:


> irnfit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are we to believe that the current breeders of Havanese are not taking the health of their dogs seriously and purposely breeding deformed dogs? QUOTE]
> 
> yes. That's the plain truth.
> 
> 
> 
> Aw Greg, we're going to wind up in a screaming match on the phone again if you keep saying things like this. Don't anyone get upset over that comment, it's normal for us and we're good friends.:tea:
> I won't join your new club and can you say that I haven't taken the health of what I breed seriously? You approved of the first stud I used, and you approve of the stud I just used and you've gone further to check out the stud I just used and got rave reviews about him and like me, that breeder is also against this new club.:whoo:
> I'm proud of you checking the breeding because after all, Bandit is from your first breeding and she's special to you, but you just painted us with a broad brush that we don't deserve.
Click to expand...


----------



## Greg

JASHavanese said:


> Let's go one step further. Don't just look at the soaped pictures, look at pictures of the dog standing naturally. See if the legs still go straight or if the pasterns start to come together. The pastern would probably be the equal of your wrists. Do the legs go straight down in a natural stance or do they come together at the 'wrists'. I'd personally run, not walk, away from a dog that's front did that yet in a soaped picture a person can appear to make the legs look great.


I agree. One of the things we do when we evaluate is drop the dog from the chest, then if the front goes off we drop holding the elbows. If the dog is still off we give it a 0. A 0 there disqualifies the dog. We do the same thing from the rear. You can't be an unsound dog and get into the HSDAA registry. But once we are done there will be a registry of health tested (and passed) sound animals with breed type....and hopefully in 6 generations or so we'll have breed away from CD enough to have gotten rid of it............this will make one very nice little registry. Maybe not so little though.


----------



## Greg

JASHavanese said:


> Greg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aw Greg, we're going to wind up in a screaming match on the phone again if you keep saying things like this. Don't anyone get upset over that comment, it's normal for us and we're good friends.:tea:
> I won't join your new club and can you say that I haven't taken the health of what I breed seriously? You approved of the first stud I used, and you approve of the stud I just used and you've gone further to check out the stud I just used and got rave reviews about him and like me, that breeder is also against this new club.:whoo:
> I'm proud of you checking the breeding because after all, Bandit is from your first breeding and she's special to you, but you just painted us with a broad brush that we don't deserve.
> 
> 
> 
> So I should say MANY of the breeders. ok So I'll say MANY.
Click to expand...


----------



## jolynn

Julie said:


> I can trace back Quincy's pedigree 7 generations......it didn't automatically give it to me,in the gallery---I had to go to the websites of the dogs posted,but 7 generations isn't enough right?
> 
> He is a grandson of CH Los Perritos Wee Pantaloons ROMX
> QUOTE]
> 
> Hey, Julie; Skiver is the grandson of Los Perritos Wee Pantaloons as well  Isn't that cool? Our boys are related!


----------



## jillnors2

How is CD diagnosed?


----------



## Greg

reece said:


> Preston was x-ray after I noticed that he had started limping. When I was bathing him and had him soaped up I took a look, and then had him x-rayed, and the doctor comfirmed what I thought, CD. He said bow legs can be cause from a puppy jumping off something and damaging the leg and it will grow crooked, but since Preston's was in both legs and pretty bad he felt it was genetics.


Exactly. it's why we soap our dogs. If we see something suspicious, we go to an Orthopedic Vet for x-rays.

You can't diagnose it by soaped pics alone.


----------



## JASHavanese

Greg said:


> Keep in mind there are several types of registrations in the HSD. Only 3 of my dogs have full registration. 1 is provisional because she isn't old enough to finish health testing or be evaluated. I'll show in the Havanese ring until I can't. And since the HSDAA is just a registry at the moment I'll dual register my dogs. The owners can decide what they want to call them. And since the membership as well as dogs are kept unpublished, people can be a part of the HSDAA without worrying about repercussions.


Ah, you talked about a huge problem we have. The people that are joining are staying hidden under sheets. :behindsofa: :spy: Some are on the board of the HCA. How can they represent HAVANESE while working toward another breed. One of the reasons people aren't trusting this is because most are hiding what they believe in. If I was so very strong about my feelings, I'd be screaming it from the rooftops, and I am. I breed HAVANESE. :whoo:


----------



## Melissa Miller

I agree with Jan.


----------



## jillnors2

Was Preston's breeder performing health testing? Thank You
Jill


----------



## aradelat

So sorry about Preston. Hold old was Preston when you noticed his limp?


----------



## Melissa Miller

What is the purpose of members staying hidden? What are they afraid of other than nasty emails?


----------



## Sunnygirl

Is it expected that the dogs and the members of HSDAA will remain unpublished for a long time? I'm not sure why your average pet owner would want to do a Permanent Limited Registration with HSDAA at this time, but how would they even know if their dog's parents were registered such that they could register their dog if it's all being kept secret? Is there some benefit to the organization from having dogs sold as companions registered (for health monitoring reasons or otherwise)? I certainly have no issues with the formation of the new group, and frankly think it's admirable that they've formed the HSDAA if there are health issues within the breed that they tried to address within HCA for some time without success and can better address in a different forum, I just am confused by the lack of disclosure.


----------



## JASHavanese

Olliesmom said:


> And one other question....isn't that registering only for INTACKED (sp?) dogs for breeding etc??- if you are spayed or nuetered isn't this all irrelavent? Except for maybe how you brand your dog?


AKC won't recognize them unless they have a lot of members.


----------



## Greg

JASHavanese said:


> Ah, you talked about a huge problem we have. The people that are joining are staying hidden under sheets. :behindsofa: :spy: Some are on the board of the HCA. How can they represent HAVANESE while working toward another breed. One of the reasons people aren't trusting this is because most are hiding what they believe in. If I was so very strong about my feelings, I'd be screaming it from the rooftops, and I am. I breed HAVANESE. :whoo:


I am and do. And I still take flack. Some people can't put up with all the hate email. Some people don't want to be confronted at shows.

The HSD is currently a subset of the Havanese. They fit in both Standards so why can't they do both? Who made the rules that you have to choose one or the other? A vocal minority? Who is to say a person has so little integrity that they cannot do something for the good of the Havanese and the HSD?


----------



## JASHavanese

Julie said:


> I have another question for Greg......
> If I can only go back in the pedigree 7 generations,how will I know if Quincy has the AZ.pheno-type or geno-type?What is the "clue" that tells you yes it is,or no,it's not?
> Thanks


Greg why don't you just post who the dogs are that you call Az dogs? Those of us who gave a certain amount of money to a project that deals with health of havs were invited to a wine and cheese party at the last National. We were given the names of these dogs so it's public knowledge. I have my notes somewhere but would have to dig for them. Basically it's the original Havanese that Dorothy had with American names that are being called the Az dogs.


----------



## Greg

JASHavanese said:


> AKC won't recognize them unless they have a lot of members.


That's only partially true. There are many criterion the AKC will use to determine if it is a seperate breed


----------



## Greg

Melissa Miller said:


> What is the purpose of members staying hidden? What are they afraid of other than nasty emails?


WOuld you like to be treated the way those of us who've come out have been treated? If it were limited to this list it would be one thing. i even had a breeder tell me she hopes I die of my Prostate Cancer. Nice woman.


----------



## Greg

JASHavanese said:


> Greg why don't you just post who the dogs are that you call Az dogs? Those of us who gave a certain amount of money to a project that deals with health of havs were invited to a wine and cheese party at the last National. We were given the names of these dogs so it's public knowledge. I have my notes somewhere but would have to dig for them. Basically it's the original Havanese that Dorothy had with American names that are being called the Az dogs.


sure. give me a few and I'll post the names of the AZ dogs


----------



## Greg

Sunnygirl said:


> Is it expected that the dogs and the members of HSDAA will remain unpublished for a long time? I'm not sure why your average pet owner would want to do a Permanent Limited Registration with HSDAA at this time, but how would they even know if their dog's parents were registered such that they could register their dog if it's all being kept secret? Is there some benefit to the organization from having dogs sold as companions registered (for health monitoring reasons or otherwise)? I certainly have no issues with the formation of the new group, and frankly think it's admirable that they've formed the HSDAA if there are health issues within the breed that they tried to address within HCA for some time without success and can better address in a different forum, I just am confused by the lack of disclosure.


I think when you contact a breeder who is registering as both, they'll tell you. At this time we just don't want to provide more targets for those who will give them a hard time. No need in making trouble for people when we can avoid it


----------



## Julie

I agree with Melissa and Dawna about the mud slinging.That is the one thing that seems to be very unfair to people.It was stated,something to the effect of "we are going off to form our own little club,just let us go in peace".......but EVEN those people didn't go in peace..not before they spewed alot of hurtful things.That is unfair and to be honest,make it **** hard in the future to be nice,in and out of a showring or anywhere else.It is very unfortunate,and an apology would perhaps be a good start.


----------



## Greg

Julie said:


> I agree with Melissa and Dawna about the mud slinging.That is the one thing that seems to be very unfair to people.It was stated,something to the effect of "we are going off to form our own little club,just let us go in peace".......but EVEN those people didn't go in peace..not before they spewed alot of hurtful things.That is unfair and to be honest,make it **** hard in the future to be nice,in and out of a showring or anywhere else.It is very unfortunate,and an apology would perhaps be a good start.


you need to go back and develop your timeline. The post that we had formed the HSDAA came before the mean spirited posts, and after several days Doc posted a reply......to which more mean spirited posts came up and then Doc posted another reply. In no instance did Doc start the mud slinging. I think several people should start apologizing and Doc isn't at the head of that list.


----------



## JASHavanese

Greg said:


> The clue really is in how he looks. His phenotype will give us clues to his genotype. We aren't using pedigrees to determine this.........we use phenotype.....so the pedigree isn't all that important at this point


Then the dog you register could come from 2 crooked front parents, but if it has straight legs and can pass that gene down to it's offspring, it's going to be registered as a HSD? 
:frusty: :frusty: :frusty: :frusty: :frusty: :frusty: :frusty:


----------



## Julie

Greg,
Oh,I read it.......there was spewing from both sides.Part of it was the way the letter was interpreted,and how it was said.I didn't point at any one person,as your post just did.:nono:....ALL involved in the "slinging" is what I meant...after all you guys will run into each other at different things.Everyone needs to kiss and make-up!:hug:


----------



## Greg

JASHavanese said:


> Then the dog you register could come from 2 crooked front parents, but if it has straight legs and can pass that gene down to it's offspring, it's going to be registered as a HSD?
> :frusty: :frusty: :frusty: :frusty: :frusty: :frusty: :frusty:


Jan you need to read the entire thread. Think about it. I've said in here we expect it to take about 5-6 generations. I've said in this thread we'll select the dogs that qualify, and give them full registration, their get will still need to be evaluated and provide the soaps. Additionally we can always include additional tests as they become available (x-rays). We'll evaluate the get of the get, and will continue to do so until the AKC accepts the breed. It won't happen fast, but it will happen. And if we stick to it, we'll end up with a registry of CD free dogs that have been health tested for at least 6 (with some up to 10) generations. No matter what happens, it's a good deal.


----------



## Greg

Julie said:


> It was stated,something to the effect of "we are going off to form our own little club,just let us go in peace".......but EVEN those people didn't go in peace..not before they spewed alot of hurtful things.That is unfair and to be honest,make it **** hard in the future to be nice,in and out of a showring or anywhere else.It is very unfortunate,and an apology would perhaps be a good start.


that's the part I felt was pointing fingers at only one side. The "even those people didn't go" side.

But you are correct, we really need to try to get along. All this bickering isn't getting anyone anywhere.


----------



## JASHavanese

Dawna said:


> Hmmm, it seems some of those HCA members responsible for those changes in the standard (to reflect their dogs) are now involved in forming a new organization. Either I'm missing huge chunks of information, or there are huge chunks of information missing.


Dawna's right. 
Now some of you will see why so many don't back this.uke:


----------



## JASHavanese

Greg said:


> I've given some thought to this...........I'm willing to provide my telephone number to anyone that wants to talk about this and sends me a private message. Please don't just do it to yell at me though.


Hey!! Don't take my fun away from me!! :whoo: ound:


----------



## Greg

JASHavanese said:


> Dawna's right.
> Now some of you will see why so many don't back this.uke:


Please take a minute and show me the changes in the Standard that were made to reflect their dogs. You see, Dawna also added in her post the possibility she may be missing huge chunks of information.

These are wild accusations. Maybe you could tell us who was on the Standards Committee when the new Standard was adopted. Maybe you could tell us their individual positions on the Standard when they brought it to the membership. Or maybe you could just describe their dogs at the time they ratified the Standard. I doubt many people could do any of these, yet they don't have a difficult time making wild accusations.

Remember, the Standard was ratified overwhelmingly by the members, so to say one person or group of persons made the changes to favor ONLY THEIR DOGS doesn't do the truth justice.


----------



## JASHavanese

Greg said:


> Jan you need to read the entire thread. Think about it. I've said in here we expect it to take about 5-6 generations. I've said in this thread we'll select the dogs that qualify, and give them full registration, their get will still need to be evaluated and provide the soaps. Additionally we can always include additional tests as they become available (x-rays). We'll evaluate the get of the get, and will continue to do so until the AKC accepts the breed. It won't happen fast, but it will happen. And if we stick to it, we'll end up with a registry of CD free dogs that have been health tested for at least 6 (with some up to 10) generations. No matter what happens, it's a good deal.


Greg, what are you going to do to promote this HSD thing when we get xrays to prove our dogs don't have CD? The HSD marketing will go right out the window and you won't be able to claim only your dogs are without CD. 
You're going to be at my house in a couple of weeks so maybe I can talk some sense into your head then. :whoo: :brick: Yeah, I know it's a long shot, but I'm willing to try:drama:


----------



## aradelat

To Reece. I saw the other posting but could not find pix of a soaped up Preston. Could you direct me, please? I am curious because my dog's legs are bowed. But the orthopedic surgeon who looked at him today said it is not a problem. He said it is not hurting his joints and he should be okay. 
He also said that my dog, who is not yet 8 months old, has had about 95 percent of his growth and that his legs should not bow out much more.
But you said your dog was 11 months old when you noticed the bowing.
If what the doctor said is right, most of Preston's growth should have occurred by then. Now I'm confused.
I hope Preston is okay. Have you had him x-rayed? I wanted to do it for my dog but the doctor said it wouldn't tell much more than he knew through his examination...


----------



## Greg

JASHavanese said:


> Greg, what are you going to do to promote this HSD thing when we get xrays to prove our dogs don't have CD? The HSD marketing will go right out the window and you won't be able to claim only your dogs are without CD.
> You're going to be at my house in a couple of weeks so maybe I can talk some sense into your head then. :whoo: :brick: Yeah, I know it's a long shot, but I'm willing to try:drama:


It isn't marketing, it's a wake up call.

you forget the number of litters registered by back yard breeders because of the popularity of the breed. So while a few good breeders will continue to work towards that goal, those not already doing so will probably fall away.

It's easy to criticize but at least everyone knows what I'll be doing to improve the health of my dogs. What is everyone else going to do besides complain?


----------



## JASHavanese

Greg said:


> I am and do. And I still take flack. Some people can't put up with all the hate email. Some people don't want to be confronted at shows.
> 
> The HSD is currently a subset of the Havanese. They fit in both Standards so why can't they do both? Who made the rules that you have to choose one or the other? A vocal minority? Who is to say a person has so little integrity that they cannot do something for the good of the Havanese and the HSD?


I typed out an answer to you and decided not to post it. 
Some things are better left unsaid.


----------



## Greg

good


----------



## aradelat

*bowed legs.*



reece said:


> Yes, I had him x-rayed, Here is the thread that has all of Preston's information. http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=954&highlight=preston+legs+bowed
> 
> It's two pages long so you will need to start from the begining to hear the whole story.


Thanks...They look bowed, but not horribly. Did your doc say Preston's legs could grow straighter?


----------



## JASHavanese

aradelat said:


> To Reece. I saw the other posting but could not find pix of a soaped up Preston. Could you direct me, please? I am curious because my dog's legs are bowed. But the orthopedic surgeon who looked at him today said it is not a problem. He said it is not hurting his joints and he should be okay.
> He also said that my dog, who is not yet 8 months old, has had about 95 percent of his growth and that his legs should not bow out much more.
> But you said your dog was 11 months old when you noticed the bowing.
> If what the doctor said is right, most of Preston's growth should have occurred by then. Now I'm confused.
> I hope Preston is okay. Have you had him x-rayed? I wanted to do it for my dog but the doctor said it wouldn't tell much more than he knew through his examination...


I'd listen to my vet and if I had questions I didn't think were being answered I'd go to a specialist.


----------



## Julie

I would like to see the list of AZ. dogs....

thank you in advance.......


----------



## juliav

Greg said:


> i even had a breeder tell me she hopes I die of my Prostate Cancer. Nice woman.


OMG Greg!!!

I am so sorry, what an evil woman!!! I couldn't imagine ever saying, no scratch that, thinking about saying something this horrible to my worst enemy. That is just inhuman!!!


----------



## Greg

Az Line:
Show girl out of Rags Girl by Silver Tiger
Inky Doll out of Rags Girl by Silver Tiger
Dark Lady out of Rags Girl by Silver Tiger
Buttons 'n Bows out of Rags Girl by Silver Tiger
Silver Promise out of Mimi by Fancy Pants


----------



## JASHavanese

Greg said:


> it's a wake up call.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> That it was. I was happy to see it.


----------



## JASHavanese

juliav said:


> OMG Greg!!!
> 
> I am so sorry, what an evil woman!!! I couldn't imagine ever saying, no scratch that, thinking about saying something this horrible to my worst enemy. That is just inhuman!!!


There are a lot of inhumane things that are said and done to breeders. You'd be surprised at what goes on behind the scenes. Some of it is even worse than what was said to Greg. Pretty sad, isn't it?


----------



## ama0722

Okay from reading some of the yahoo post where people are calling out each other's dogs and the dogs that have been breed with health problems both havanese and HSD lines. Is it really that difficult to find 2 healthy dogs to breed that produce healthy puppies or is it really just not that clear what dogs have cd, curved legs, heart murmurs, or deafness. I know a lot of genetics are a gamble but this is making it look like a lot of puppies are being produced that aren't healthy at all. Are there statistics of how many puppies produced, how many have these sort of horrible health conditions? Or as a breeder do you really just have to decide if your dog produces dogs with these type of ailments, do you try again? I was just shocked to read about some of these dogs being bred over and over producing bad puppies.

Amanda


----------



## whitBmom

Wow, I am away for a few hours and this thread just keep growing!! First off, I want to say that this has been very informative. I would also like to say that what that woman said to Greg is inexcusable. It is actually sickening, and I am quite shocked that all these politics and name calling goes on behind the scenes.  Inflated egos are the problem and for this reason we have these sad situations.

I am still on the fence about things, but I sincerely hope that no matter what happens that this will improve our Havanese - they deserve that. The yahoo group is in such upheaval, and there have been split ups into even smaller groups too. Sigh....


----------



## aradelat

Is Rags Girl a AZ dog and are all of her puppies "bad." I know Rags Girl is in my dog's background....


----------



## SMARTY

Greg, you must be a saint to have stayed with this forum so long. I have learned more than I really wanted to know about the problems of the breed. I commend your group for wanting to start a breed that does not have these problems. For the Havanese, as long as you have Champion stud owners willing to breed to bitches with these problems and back yard/mill breeders who do not know or care these problems will continue. To the Havanese Show breeders or those who examine each and every dog I understand their frustration with the new HSD. 

Dumb question on my part: Can this tendency for bowed legs (CD) be spotted in a puppy by an experienced eye? If so, here goes my membership, why are they sold or given away even as a pet? My past experience with show breeders was if a dog was born with a problem that could affect their quality of life they were put down. No pet owner should have to go through buying much less raising a puppy that is doomed to a painful or short life. Before some of you get really upset with me, my position is “the job of a good breeder is to protect the public and the breed.” (That is why I no longer breed Boxers, with the cancer, cropping of ears, tails and dew claws, etc. and in the past not being able to raise, sell or give away a white boxer I no longer had the stomach for it. White Boxers were more prone to have skin cancer, deafness and blindness, and no family should find this out after they fall in love with the rare white boxer.)


----------



## JASHavanese

reece said:


> Yes, I had him x-rayed, Here is the thread that has all of Preston's information. http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=954&highlight=preston+legs+bowed
> 
> It's two pages long so you will need to start from the begining to hear the whole story.


We're sending hugs to you both.


----------



## aradelat

Please, please, bowed legs is not CD. CD is bowed legs that cause damage to joints. I don't know why so many equate bowed legs to CD. Once again, a dog can have bowed legs and not CD...


----------



## SMARTY

Aradelat, how do you tell the difference in a young dog?


----------



## Greg

aradelat said:


> Please, please, bowed legs is not CD. CD is bowed legs that cause damage to joints. I don't know why so many equate bowed legs to CD. Once again, a dog can have bowed legs and not CD...


In this breed, bowed legs are alarming since the legs are supposed to be straight from any angle. Given the fact that over $250k was spent on the study of CD/OS.....I think if you find bowed legs you need to consult an othopedic specialist AND you need to inform him that bowed legs and CD are problems in the breed. Bowed legs are find in breeds that call for them, ours does not.


----------



## Greg

SMARTY said:


> Greg, you must be a saint to have stayed with this forum so long. I have learned more than I really wanted to know about the problems of the breed. I commend your group for wanting to start a breed that does not have these problems. For the Havanese, as long as you have Champion stud owners willing to breed to bitches with these problems and back yard/mill breeders who do not know or care these problems will continue. To the Havanese Show breeders or those who examine each and every dog I understand their frustration with the new HSD.
> 
> Dumb question on my part: Can this tendency for bowed legs (CD) be spotted in a puppy by an experienced eye? If so, here goes my membership, why are they sold or given away even as a pet? My past experience with show breeders was if a dog was born with a problem that could affect their quality of life they were put down. No pet owner should have to go through buying much less raising a puppy that is doomed to a painful or short life. Before some of you get really upset with me, my position is "the job of a good breeder is to protect the public and the breed." (That is why I no longer breed Boxers, with the cancer, cropping of ears, tails and dew claws, etc. and in the past not being able to raise, sell or give away a white boxer I no longer had the stomach for it. White Boxers were more prone to have skin cancer, deafness and blindness, and no family should find this out after they fall in love with the rare white boxer.)


we soap every puppy at 8 weeks of age to see if we can see curving in the legs. If we ever did, we'd seek a more specialized diagnosis. Sometimes they curve later, after they've gone to their new homes.......you probably aren't truely safe until the growth plates close


----------



## Greg

aradelat said:


> Is Rags Girl a AZ dog and are all of her puppies "bad." I know Rags Girl is in my dog's background....


we all have her in our backgrounds


----------



## Greg

ama0722 said:


> Okay from reading some of the yahoo post where people are calling out each other's dogs and the dogs that have been breed with health problems both havanese and HSD lines. Is it really that difficult to find 2 healthy dogs to breed that produce healthy puppies or is it really just not that clear what dogs have cd, curved legs, heart murmurs, or deafness. I know a lot of genetics are a gamble but this is making it look like a lot of puppies are being produced that aren't healthy at all. Are there statistics of how many puppies produced, how many have these sort of horrible health conditions? Or as a breeder do you really just have to decide if your dog produces dogs with these type of ailments, do you try again? I was just shocked to read about some of these dogs being bred over and over producing bad puppies.
> 
> Amanda


Sometimes a breeder doesn't know, then finds out and spay/neuters the animal. Others find out and hide it or make excuses....continuing to breed the disease into the gene pool because the dog has other nice traits that apparently we can't get without having diseased animals in the gene pool.


----------



## tehashavanese

Melissa Miller said:


> What is the purpose of members staying hidden? What are they afraid of other than nasty emails?


Melissa, as one that was involved in deciding to make it an announcement from the Steering Committe and not an individual, I can tell you that part of the thought process was that we actually believed the idea should be considered on its merits. We were hoping, incorrectly it turned out, that it could be principle before personality.

I have no problem with people staying quiet about their position, on either side of this. Some people simply don't want to be part of the type of flaming that has occured on some lists. And sadly, there have been nastier emails and phone calls in private.

That is a small element, its true, but some don't wish to deal with it. I can respect that.

Those of us who like the Havana Silk Dog idea don't expect to change the world, or bring in all, most, or even a significant minority of Havanese people. We simply believe that both health, and breed type, are sufficent reasons to start the HSDAA.

Steve Harris


----------



## marbenv

Now I wish we could have a list of the really nasty breeders( I know we can"t, but I wish)--like the one that said that to Greg and those who are even worse (hard to believe anyone could be worse than that!! I most certainly do not want to buy a dog from them even if ithe dog were the crown prince/princess of the entire Havanese world!! How vicious!!:brick: 

Marsha


----------



## JASHavanese

ama0722 said:


> Okay from reading some of the yahoo post where people are calling out each other's dogs and the dogs that have been breed with health problems both havanese and HSD lines. Is it really that difficult to find 2 healthy dogs to breed that produce healthy puppies or is it really just not that clear what dogs have cd, curved legs, heart murmurs, or deafness. I know a lot of genetics are a gamble but this is making it look like a lot of puppies are being produced that aren't healthy at all. Are there statistics of how many puppies produced, how many have these sort of horrible health conditions? Or as a breeder do you really just have to decide if your dog produces dogs with these type of ailments, do you try again? I was just shocked to read about some of these dogs being bred over and over producing bad puppies.
> 
> Amanda


Amanda, hopefully breeders are doing their very best. They can look at soaped pictures, they can put their hands on the dogs, they can take xrays, they can go back and look at every puppy ever breed from dogs you're thinking of breeding to and things can still go wrong. The one thing about the Havanese breed is that we do so very much testing, not in percentages, but in actual numbers, that our problems are right in your face. Breeds who don't test as much as we do don't have to deal with that. I'd rather have the honesty. Every breed known to man has health issues and remember that while we can do our very best to make sure we stay away from health problems, there are genes behind our dogs that we have no control over because they can pop up at any time. The good breeder stands behind every puppy they put on the ground and does everything in their power to minimize the risks.
I haven't looked at my email today. It sounds like there's a free for all going on from your post.


----------



## Julie

I have another question.....Wouldn't every single havanese in the United States(unless it was imported) have come from Dorothy's original breeding stock?So almost ALL havanese have the AZ. problems?I would think most all would have that AZ.pheno-type or geno-type in it's DNA........including the ones that are currently being bred as "good"quality havanese,and now havana silks?

Of if not,you mentioned that you had hoped to breed the CD or any such problems out of the havana silks within,I think you said 5-6 years/wouldn't that AZ. CD and other health problems be already bred out of the havanese,since they have been for alot of years?

Can you be sure of not breeding away from the personality traits and temperment of the havanese?How do you make sure that eventually you don't end up with a "snippy"" yippy" type dog?

In a sense,wouldn't Rags Girl be bred out of the current havs?


----------



## irnfit

Did you really think that people wouldn't take this personally? How silly!
We have invested a lot of time and money in these precious dogs...but most of all, lots of love. Now, someone has come along saying we have inferior, sick dogs. At least that's what it sounds like. We are just being protective of our furbabies. 

And that is exactly what "they" are saying. They have invested lots of time, money and love in their dogs, but their dogs are superior and not sick. I'm not judging anyone. I don't know these people other than what I have read about them. 

I think people are very confused. All we ever hear is "research your breeder". Go to AKC and HCA websites to get breeders lists, yada, yada, yada. But now it seems as if even that isn't good enough anymore. Some of the people who were telling us to do this have abandoned ship. See the confusion? It was just done poorly. Maybe it was good for you, but it wasn't good for us. Especially those who just wanted a cute little Havanese to love. I'm not slamming anyone, it's just my 2 cents. 

Maybe we need a mediator to work this all out. :yield:


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

SMARTY said:


> Greg, you must be a saint to have stayed with this forum so long. I have learned more than I really wanted to know about the problems of the breed.


When i was researching the Havanese before i decided to get them, i was at first shocked when i kept reading about all the health problems with them. But as i kept doing research i realized that the Havs didnt have more health issues than other breeds(in fact, there are many popular breeds who have many many more health problem than the Havs). But that there were people who are just very passionate about wanting to breed healthy dogs & were trying to erradicate diseases & other health issues and to educate owners about possible issues that may arise.

So whether you choose a Hav or HSD i am glad there are breeders who do what they can to make sure their pups are healthy. We all should feel proud of the dogs we have & all the research we as owners have done to find the right breeders.

I am curious as to see what happens when the dust settles on this subject & hopefully some good things come from all this. Afterall, this IS about the dogs, isnt it?


----------



## Julie

There's a part of me that feels just like you do Michele.....for me,there is no second chance...I can not afford a mistake/another hav.I couldn't afford the one I got,but I figured out a way.....then this all takes place,and you think,oh,my gosh,,,,what if I got screwed,what if I made a mistake?It is easy for a breeder to "appear" good....there are people on this very forum that got bad dogs from people who they thought were good breeders.No they have huge medical bills etc.I feel bad for them,as this should not happen to anyone!I say shame on all those hav breeders who claim testing and don't and the ones who claim testing,but never passed......no difference in my mind.


----------



## irnfit

Shannon, I feel the same way. I did my research and thought the same thing, Wow, what am I getting into with this breed. But after reading more and more about the health testing and good breeding, I didn't hesitate to get two Havs. I wouldn't trade them for anything. Right now my DH is in the hospital and all he could say was go home and kiss the puppies for me. So we invest a lot more of our hearts than money could buy.

I can only hope that everyone would start breeding a better dog. 

Question - if everyone now starts breeding out CD, as well as other problems, will all have eventually become Havana Silks? Or this can't happen because of the difference in Cuban, Arizona.


----------



## mckennasedona

Just when I was thinking that showing could be a fun (albeit expensive) hobby, I read what someone said to Greg and hear that it can be even worse than that. I think I'll try a different hobby when I retire. I have to wonder how, and most of all why, my friends who do show and breed, put up with it??? 

Let's see, I'll purchase an expensive show puppy, raise her, buy her the best food and grooming supplies and veterinary care money can buy. I'll spend hours each day grooming her and training her for the ring. I'll pay to enter her into shows. I'll buy lots of ex-pens and crates. I'll even buy an RV to go to dog shows. I'll win ribbons and points but no money and I'll listen to people tell me they wish I were dead, if I beat them in the ring or have different opinions... yep, that's a hobby I think I'll skip.

Susan


----------



## Greg

it's not always that bad <grin>. I've met some of the nicest people in the world too. I drive 1000 miles one way to attend 3 days of dog shows each June......and I rarely have a dog to show <grin> I stop by Doc's on the way to do x-rays and other health tests...........I get to stay at Tom's and spend time with his super nice family. I see my friends Beth and Kim and Kay and Bobbie and Jennifer and Margie (sometimes) and Diane and Vicki and her great family.........and tons more. I met a couple of forum members this year........14 hours one way and yet I'll go back year after year to see my friends...........and I have friends here in FL too. There's a small vocal group who don't like me or my friends, but the majority of breeders/exhibitors are the nicest people in the world, doing their best for the dogs they have..........regardless of our difference in opinion. All it takes is a smile and a funny dog story. Nope I wouldn't trade it.


----------



## Melissa Miller

tehashavanese said:


> Melissa, as one that was involved in deciding to make it an announcement from the Steering Committe and not an individual, I can tell you that part of the thought process was that we actually believed the idea should be considered on its merits. We were hoping, incorrectly it turned out, that it could be principle before personality.
> 
> I have no problem with people staying quiet about their position, on either side of this. Some people simply don't want to be part of the type of flaming that has occured on some lists. And sadly, there have been nastier emails and phone calls in private.
> 
> That is a small element, its true, but some don't wish to deal with it. I can respect that.
> 
> Those of us who like the Havana Silk Dog idea don't expect to change the world, or bring in all, most, or even a significant minority of Havanese people. We simply believe that both health, and breed type, are sufficent reasons to start the HSDAA.
> 
> Steve Harris


I understand that to a degree, Steve. However, you HAD to know some on the list would react like they did. SO it would have been best to explain yourself then go on. But for some on your team, to then react to their emails with the same trash talking brought you to their level.

If they are proud of what they can accomplish then I say stand up and show who you are. You dont have to put it on the list, or here, but why hide? Its freaking e-mail! Delete it! If you see someone at a show, then turn around. If you get a phone call, block their number. It wont last long unless it is encouraged. The constant replies on the lists are just encouraging the topic. Im assuming you have your own list and chat, so you don't even need to deal with Havanese list/groups and their nasty replies.

There are huge character flaws on the HSD side and the Havanese side. It takes two to tango, when one side quits dancing it will be a little more quiet and you wont have to worry about hiding.

I edited what I wrote here originally because I didnt want to bring stuff from the lists up here. Im going out of town and the same stuff doesn't need to be hashed out again.


----------



## lcerny

*Havanese genetics*

I have shown and owned Havanese for 6 years. I have a question that hopefully someone on this website can answer since, all the other forums I am apart of can not. Has anyone on this forum actually seen the published reports from TAMU from Dr. Murphy stating that chondrodysplasia, cataracts, liver and heart problems are all genetically related? If so where do I get a copy? Also, if anyone knows where I can find the published reports proving that "asymmetric animals" exist, according to Diane Klumb's new book, as it is stated on the "Havana Silk Dog" website. This verification of information is very important to anyone thinking of breeding or buying a Havanese. Please forward me with any information that you all have!

Thanks!!


----------



## lcerny

I am new to this forum but I noticed that people have been asking about CD. For those of you who want to know more about it go to the OFA website at www.offa.org. If you look up CD it will tell you everything you will want to know about it.


----------



## pfabulus

Hi, I just joined this group.

My name is Laura Pfab and I'm one of the directors on the current Havanese Club of America board and the show chair for the 2007 HCA National specialty dog show being held in Denver, CO in August. I've been in Havanese since 2000, and in dogs (Bichons) since 1990. I've had just two litters of Havanese, one entire litter we lost at birth due to a fluke. I do show, sparingly, my kids both show in junior showmanship with our Havs.

My take on this is like this: All Havana Silk Dogs are Havanese but not all Havanese are Havana Silk Dogs. You also have to realize that Doc and Diane were instrumental in changing the HCA standard back in 2000 (it is noted in the HCA publication, the Hotline). They are also the ones who brought a proposal to the membership, in August 2005, to change the name of the Havanese to the Havana Silk Dog, which failed miserably. I have 1 Havanese that more closely resembles the Havana Silk Dog type, since she is out of one of Diane's males. But, I have no intention of joining the Havana Silk Dog. I have also been pretty vocal, with facts in hand, so they will never want me anyway. I'm not a "Yes" person.

The facts are this. The group that has broken off was key in changing the standard from the original 1963 FCI standard to what it is today. But, they now say that they weren't allowed to make the changes that they wanted to the standard. Unfortunately, the meeting minutes will show that this is not true.

Another reason that they say that they are breaking off is becuase the rest of us HCA breeders are breeding bad, unhealthy havs. I know of a few bad apples but that doesn't mean that the other couple of hundred Havanese owners who belong to the HCA breed in an unhealthy way. It was very unfair to those of us who take the time and pay the money to do the health tests, going above what the HCA recommends, for our dogs.

There are some in this new group that have continued to breed dogs that have failed their health tests. Is that a mark of an ethical breeder, especially one who is now moving towards this "elite" group of healthy Havana Silk Dogs? It is so very sad that the world has come to this.

The reason that the other Havanese lists are in such an uproar is because all of us (unless you were in the HSDA group) were broadsided by the news. We were shocked, we were hurt, we were angry. The people who are breaking away are those that the rest of us trusted. We gave them everything they wanted. But never got anything back in return, including updates on the HEART study that the Havanese club of america donated over $10,000 towards (paid for by member dues). I could care less if the other group splinters off. But how it was announced, and the timing of 8 weeks before the National, was not planned out very well.

That is it for my information for now. I work during the day so it is the evenings before I can respond. Plus I'm busy with the national specialty and making sure that it is the grandest event to date to showcase our Havanese breed.

thanks for listening.
Laura Pfab
Pfabulus Bichons & Havanese
[email protected]


----------



## pfabulus

In terms of being badmouthed at the dog shows. I was just at a dog show this past weekend showing my champion, Eve, who has the silkier coat. There was a good sized Hav entry. Most of the people are on the lists or know people on the lists. The one consistent thing I heard the entire time is that I shouldn't be showing my Havana Silk Dog in the ring with the Havanese. That was quite hurtful. Those of us with the Silkier Havanese will eventually be kept out of the show ring because of this divide. Even if I wanted to, I could never register Eve as a HSD as her mother developed a cataract at the age of 4. Eve, at the age of 4 has still CERFed clear. So, I'm one of those who are truly going to be stuck in the middle. Both with my beliefs, and with my dogs. And, if any of you would like to know, I check the following with my dogs:
CERF
BAER
OFA Hips
OFA Patellas
OFA Elbows (my Magic has had this done, but not Eve, because she wasn't with during that trip to the vet)
OFA Cardiac
and all of the results should be on the ofa website. I just got my ofa cardiac results in the mail today and they aren't showing up yet on the ofa website.

And, there are lots of us that have healthy HCA havanese.

Laura Pfab
Pfabulus Bichons & Havanese
[email protected]


----------



## ama0722

Laura-thanks for your view point. It felt like it was pretty one sided here and we were missing the other half. It makes a bit more sense why everyone would be so upset rather thanking wow they want to breed healthier havanese.

Icerny- It does seem like there would be something available. Do you know what journal it is to be published in? Most journal will let you know when your publication is going to be printed. My husband does research just in mathematics (so totally different) but if you have something that was accepted for publication, you can usually write the author and they will send you a copy in his field. I think obviously, people are going to protect their work before it is accepted for publication and not hand it out to everyone else. But there can be about a 6 month gap period when it is accepted for publication and when it is actually printed in a journal at least in his field.

Amanda


----------



## jillnors2

*Nasty Breeders*



> MARBEN-Now I wish we could have a list of the really nasty breeders( I know we can"t, but I wish)


All you have to do is go to the Yahoo lists. I'm avoiding the nasty breeders in HCA and HSDAA. There are nasty ones on both sides as you'll see.


----------



## Julie

Julie said:


> I have another question.....Wouldn't every single havanese in the United States(unless it was imported) have come from Dorothy's original breeding stock?So almost ALL havanese have the AZ. problems?I would think most all would have that AZ.pheno-type or geno-type in it's DNA........including the ones that are currently being bred as "good"quality havanese,and now havana silks?
> 
> Of if not,you mentioned that you had hoped to breed the CD or any such problems out of the havana silks within,I think you said 5-6 years/wouldn't that AZ. CD and other health problems be already bred out of the havanese,since they have been for alot of years?
> 
> Can you be sure of not breeding away from the personality traits and temperment of the havanese?How do you make sure that eventually you don't end up with a "snippy"" yippy" type dog?
> 
> In a sense,wouldn't Rags Girl be bred out of the current havs?


I was wondering if someone could answer my questions.........Thank you.


----------



## Missy

This whole thread makes me very sad. I know that this is very serious and that improving the breed is important. And I do appreciate that this forum can be a place for information and debate. That being said, these 54 pages are so heated I hate to see what the yahoo forums look like. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## juliav

Missy,

I went to Yahoo groups and it is pretty ugly out there....sigh. I think life is too short for such animosity (putting it really mildly) and I promptly removed myself from the list.


----------



## Melissa Miller

This is a cake walk compared the yahoo lists. And I see why it is heated. We love our dogs and we take all of this very personal. And then the mud slinging gets to people we call friends, it gets even worse.

Laura, thanks for joining! We ARE going to have a great National this year. It will be a lot of fun. It was nice to hear your viewpoint.


----------



## Eileen Marshall

I too have read all of these post. I was very proud to see this discussion on an adult level dealing with the facts.(before last weekend) I have not read any of the Yahoo groups. I am a new member.
MY # 1 concern is health, as I have stated before. If this keeps growing I hope the media gets hold of this and Dateline or CNN does a special on the split. It could wake up the country and educate the public on breeding, health issues and to just how bad the puppy mill business is. People still do not get it and many are looking for a bargain. I hope the mud slinging stops. It is bad enough to look bad in your own family but I would not like to show that side of the Havanese people to the world. The breed deserves better than that.
I was impressed with the fact that I had restrictions with the purchase of my puppy. Every breed has health problems but congratulations to those who are truly trying to do something about it. 
Thank you to all who have kept this discussion informative and a learning experience for new Hav owners.


----------



## Greg

Julie said:


> I was wondering if someone could answer my questions.........Thank you.


Julie,

It's all in the selection. It's absurd to think we will be selecting for health and conformation and not personality. Regardless of what you may read, selecting for the whole dog doesn't mean we have to accept diseased animals. Therefore we do not have to accept diseased animals to get the personality we enjoy so much.


----------



## Julie

Greg,
Okay,I understand the personality traits etc.Could you answer my other questions?This may all be mundain to you as a breeder.......but as a NON-breeder,how do we know,unless we ask?

Thanks in advance-


----------



## Eileen Marshall

Greg,
Thank you for all your time, effort, knowledge and dedication. Your a man of integrity. I want you all to know that I was on Greg's list for one of his puppies from his last litter. Because of my traveling the timing was not good for me OR THE PUPPY. He found me a puppy from another breeder. NOW THAT IS A BREEDER THAT PUTS EVERYONE'S BEST INTEREST FIRST NOT JUST SELLING A PUPPY. I am so in love with this puppy and he has it all. It is wonderful to see everyone's dedication to their dogs and the breed. I hope the scale tips on that side.


----------



## Greg

yes nearly all the dogs in the states would have Rags Girl in them. But at last years National, those of us who attended heard Dr. Murphy explain that the disease could be bred away from. We believe that means breeding away from the AZ phenotype. And so we will.


----------



## Julie

Thanks.....
Seems like everyone would want to breed away from that AZ phenotype,but what do I know?
It does seem like though,through careful breeding,it would of been bred away by now in the havanese and Rags with her issues,would of basically been bred out of all current havs.I guess the key word there was CAREFUL,right?

Thanks for your in put and answers Greg----


----------



## irnfit

Is there a picture of Rags Girl somewhere? I would love to see what she looks like.


----------



## mary c

aradelat said:


> Please, please, bowed legs is not CD. CD is bowed legs that cause damage to joints. I don't know why so many equate bowed legs to CD. Once again, a dog can have bowed legs and not CD...


hurray! this is so absolutely correct, a soaped picture does not tell you anything other than the leg might not be straight, not if it has a medical conditon such as CD.

Mary Cane


----------



## mary c

pfabulus said:


> Hi, I just joined this group.
> 
> My name is Laura Pfab and I'm one of the directors on the current Havanese Club of America board and the show chair for the 2007 HCA National specialty dog show being held in Denver, CO in August. I've been in Havanese since 2000, and in dogs (Bichons) since 1990. I've had just two litters of Havanese, one entire litter we lost at birth due to a fluke. I do show, sparingly, my kids both show in junior showmanship with our Havs.
> 
> My take on this is like this: All Havana Silk Dogs are Havanese but not all Havanese are Havana Silk Dogs. You also have to realize that Doc and Diane were instrumental in changing the HCA standard back in 2000 (it is noted in the HCA publication, the Hotline). They are also the ones who brought a proposal to the membership, in August 2005, to change the name of the Havanese to the Havana Silk Dog, which failed miserably. I have 1 Havanese that more closely resembles the Havana Silk Dog type, since she is out of one of Diane's males. But, I have no intention of joining the Havana Silk Dog. I have also been pretty vocal, with facts in hand, so they will never want me anyway. I'm not a "Yes" person.
> 
> The facts are this. The group that has broken off was key in changing the standard from the original 1963 FCI standard to what it is today. But, they now say that they weren't allowed to make the changes that they wanted to the standard. Unfortunately, the meeting minutes will show that this is not true.
> 
> Another reason that they say that they are breaking off is becuase the rest of us HCA breeders are breeding bad, unhealthy havs. I know of a few bad apples but that doesn't mean that the other couple of hundred Havanese owners who belong to the HCA breed in an unhealthy way. It was very unfair to those of us who take the time and pay the money to do the health tests, going above what the HCA recommends, for our dogs.
> 
> There are some in this new group that have continued to breed dogs that have failed their health tests. Is that a mark of an ethical breeder, especially one who is now moving towards this "elite" group of healthy Havana Silk Dogs? It is so very sad that the world has come to this.
> 
> The reason that the other Havanese lists are in such an uproar is because all of us (unless you were in the HSDA group) were broadsided by the news. We were shocked, we were hurt, we were angry. The people who are breaking away are those that the rest of us trusted. We gave them everything they wanted. But never got anything back in return, including updates on the HEART study that the Havanese club of america donated over $10,000 towards (paid for by member dues). I could care less if the other group splinters off. But how it was announced, and the timing of 8 weeks before the National, was not planned out very well.
> 
> That is it for my information for now. I work during the day so it is the evenings before I can respond. Plus I'm busy with the national specialty and making sure that it is the grandest event to date to showcase our Havanese breed.
> 
> thanks for listening.
> Laura Pfab
> Pfabulus Bichons & Havanese
> [email protected]


I am very glad to see that Laura has posted this information here.
Laura is on the Board of Directors of the Havanese Club of America and is a fairminded representative of the membership and is committed to the future of the Havanese as recognized by the HCA and the AKC.

Her open mindedness and decision not to support the mission of the HSDAA to
undermine the legitimacy of the Havanese breed and the Havanese Club of America has unfortunately resulted in her being maligned, abused and attempts to sabotage her work for the HCA, including her incredibly challenging position as Chair of the Havanese Club of America's National in Denver this coming August.

I hope that many from this list can find their way to come to the HCA National in August to see the wonder and the beauty and the progress of the work of the Havanese breeders as well as attend the many Havanese social events and seminars.

Mary Cane
Moorea Havanese


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

I am glad Laura has posted as well. Like Melissa stated earlier, we would like to hear BOTH sides of the story, in a FACTUAL debate. Just bring the facts out in the open. Thats all we ask. Obviously there are things in writing, like minutes from meetings(not sure if that can be shown) etc.... 
I think we ALL deserve that so we can make educated decisions for ourselves.

All i can say is that this years National Specialty should be mighty interesting!!


----------



## Leeann

Welcome Mary, I think I may have contacted you once when looking for a pup. You came highly recommended to me by several people as a great breeder.

It looks like this thread has caught the eyes of a bunch of great breeders. I just want to welcome everyone and thank you for your input, its great to get some input from the HCA side of things also. I hope most of you decide to stay with us after this HSA quiets down I’m sure your input would be greatly appreciated by many.


----------



## Julie

Welcome Laura and Mary!:welcome:
It's nice to hear from others also involved with the havanese.


----------



## juliav

Laura and Mary welcome to the forum.


----------



## Doc

*Havana Brown*



ama0722 said:


> Okay something else I just thought about. We talked about the black and brown color not being in the 1963 FCI. If I remember correctly you said it hasn't been decided if that will be in the new HSD standard. I wonder how many of the HSD's are primarily black in color. I just wonder if the black and brown coming into the havanese and becoming the primary color goes along with the change of standard from HSD and havanese? If color could be linked into those traits because when I look at these pictures I see all the black again which wasn't in the 63 description.
> 
> what color is havane? could that be black or brown?
> 
> Is there an older cuban standard we can compare to and see how the FCI might have changed things? Could black dogs have been in before?
> 
> Just more thoughts that entered my head!
> Amanda


As I understand it, "Havana brown' refers to black dogs...many of them get rusty overtones when they are in the sun which may make them appear very dark brown BUT, they have black pigment and that is what makes it clear that chocolate was not in that standard...pigment is black, period.

Doc (just got here and jumped in the middle and am quite unclear as to how to navigate this forum) Where's my GPS when I need it.


----------



## Olliesmom

Well you only have 562 more posts in this thread to respond to! That could keep you very busy!:jaw:


----------



## Olliesmom

*OOPS!* I mean 561!!!!!


----------



## RedHeadedGator

Welcome, Doc. Happy to have you here with us and for the information you can provide! Melissa has done a wonderful thing with this Forum


----------



## lcerny

*TAMU studies*

I posed a question earlier asking for any information about the TAMU studies done by Dr. Murphy, discussing the relationship between CD, cataracts, liver and heart problems. Luckily I received an email from Dr. Murphy, stating that the paper discussing his findings will be out in July/August in the Journal of Hereditary (JOH). He said that the paper can not be shared until it is officially published. I figured I would share this for anyone else who wants to know when or where they can get a copy of Dr. Murphy's finding!


----------



## SMARTY

Welcome Doc, we meet in 2 weeks ago at the Blue Ridge Specialty weekend. I hope you will find our forum a lot friendlier than the yahoo bunch. Thanks for coming.


----------



## aradelat

Because my dog has been diagnosed with bowed legs (if only slightly) I am very interested in the TAMU study and would love to contact Dr. Murphy to try to convince him to give us an early summary of his findings.
The orthopedic surgeon who examined my dog said he doubted there was a link between bowed legs, even if they are bad enough to result in CD, and other health issues in Havanese.


----------



## Greg

Doc this is the dog you looked at a week ago Sunday


----------



## Doc

*Thank you.*



SMARTY said:


> Welcome Doc, we meet in 2 weeks ago at the Blue Ridge Specialty weekend. I hope you will find our forum a lot friendlier than the yahoo bunch. Thanks for coming.


Glad to be here...it certainly does seem a more civilized place. I have removed myself from almost all Yahoo Havanese elists...I'm taking my life back. So how do you get a smiley in a post?

Doc


----------



## Doc

*Doubing orthopod...*



aradelat said:


> Because my dog has been diagnosed with bowed legs (if only slightly) I am very interested in the TAMU study and would love to contact Dr. Murphy to try to convince him to give us an early summary of his findings.
> The orthopedic surgeon who examined my dog said he doubted there was a link between bowed legs, even if they are bad enough to result in CD, and other health issues in Havanese.


Your surgeon might want to talk to Dr Murphy as his research has indicated that there is.

Doc


----------



## Julie

:welcome: Doc :welcome: 
Nice to have you on this forum!:biggrin1: 

to get smilies.......to the right of where you post...click on the one you like.also you can click on "more" and it opens up all kinds of cute ones!


----------



## Doc

*Reply to Laura with some adjustments.*



pfabulus said:


> Hi, I just joined this group.
> 
> My name is Laura Pfab and I'm one of the directors on the current Havanese Club of America board and the show chair for the 2007 HCA National specialty dog show being held in Denver, CO in August. I've been in Havanese since 2000, and in dogs (Bichons) since 1990. I've had just two litters of Havanese, one entire litter we lost at birth due to a fluke. I do show, sparingly, my kids both show in junior showmanship with our Havs.
> 
> My take on this is like this: All Havana Silk Dogs are Havanese but not all Havanese are Havana Silk Dogs. You also have to realize that Doc and Diane were instrumental in changing the HCA standard back in 2000 (it is noted in the HCA publication, the Hotline). They are also the ones who brought a proposal to the membership, in August 2005, to change the name of the Havanese to the Havana Silk Dog, which failed miserably. I have 1 Havanese that more closely resembles the Havana Silk Dog type, since she is out of one of Diane's males. But, I have no intention of joining the Havana Silk Dog. I have also been pretty vocal, with facts in hand, so they will never want me anyway. I'm not a "Yes" person.
> 
> Laura, this is not quite accurate. It was Steve Harris who made that proposal, not Diane, not me.
> 
> The facts are this. The group that has broken off was key in changing the standard from the original 1963 FCI standard to what it is today. But, they now say that they weren't allowed to make the changes that they wanted to the standard. Unfortunately, the meeting minutes will show that this is not true.
> 
> This is also not accurate. There have been 12 standards since the 1963 standard. I think the one that we were changing was passed in the late 90s, most definitely NOT the 1963 Standard. The standard was changed regularly to include just about every variation that showed up in the Havanese and it was POORLY done. For example, the standard in effect before the current one called for SHORT legs in one section but EQUAL legs in another (in AKC terminology when we refer to EQUAL it means equal in length from elbow to ground as from elbow to the top of the shoulder.) Actually, I think we did a bang-up job with the standard. We are intending to go back to the 1963 standard only as a basis to begin...it is being fleshed out with the Cuban standard (the beauty of the Cuban standard is that it is more precise than our current standard...an example is that ours call for muzzle to be 'slightly' shorter than the backskull. What are are seeing in the ring are very SHORT muzzles...and, the argument is 'how slight is ''slight''?' The Cuban standard calls for a 3:4 ratio from muzzle to backskull...that more tightly defines the proportions and should eliminate the little Maltese muzzles.) Then it will be checked to be sure if conforms with AKC format and, if necessary, any holes will be filled in from the current AKC standard. I expect the HSD standard to be very similar to the AKC standard except more precise.
> 
> Another reason that they say that they are breaking off is becuase the rest of us HCA breeders are breeding bad, unhealthy havs. I know of a few bad apples but that doesn't mean that the other couple of hundred Havanese owners who belong to the HCA breed in an unhealthy way. It was very unfair to those of us who take the time and pay the money to do the health tests, going above what the HCA recommends, for our dogs.
> 
> Not accurate, either...there are many people who are good and ethical and subscribe to breeding healthy, and health-tested dogs in the Havanese community. As I have said many times, 'if the shoe doesn't fit, don't try to stuff your foot in it.' I have friends who will remain in the Havanese breed and my moving in a different direction does not preclude a continuation of these friendship. I wish the mutual anger and hostilities had not blown up as they did...I naively felt that those who disliked us and our constant preaching about health issues would be delighted to see us go.
> 
> There are some in this new group that have continued to breed dogs that have failed their health tests. Is that a mark of an ethical breeder, especially one who is now moving towards this "elite" group of healthy Havana Silk Dogs? It is so very sad that the world has come to this.
> 
> One of the things that I have always believed is that each of us has to make their own decisions on what levels of risk we are willing to take as long as we are willing to accept responsibility for our decisions and their results AND are HONEST about what we are doing. If someone chooses to breed a unilaterally deaf bitch, for example, and says so (like, we do not know the mode of inheritance for this condition, unis have produced normal hearing dogs, I wouldn't breed two unis together and I just feel that this bitch is otherwise outstanding so I am going to breed her. I will BAER test the pups, inform the buyers, etc) then, whether *I* agree with it, or not, it is her decision. It is when breeders are deceptive or fail to disclose health defects in their dogs that I think it is unacceptable. It doesn't just affect them, it affects their buyers, owners of related dogs, etc. An example would be that a dog in a litter is a uni. The breeder withholds this information from the owners of the other pups in the litter. A bitch from the litter is sold to a breeding home and, when she is bred, she produces a uni...the owner of the stud is contacted and asked about deafness in 'his' line (there is NONE). If the owner of the bitch had been given all the information about her bitch then perhaps she would not have been blindsided when her bitch produced one. I tend to be conservative in taking breeding risks but then I am very sensitive about health issues because people come to me with heartbreaking stories about unhealthy dogs.
> 
> The reason that the other Havanese lists are in such an uproar is because all of us (unless you were in the HSDA group) were broadsided by the news. We were shocked, we were hurt, we were angry. The people who are breaking away are those that the rest of us trusted. We gave them everything they wanted. But never got anything back in return, including updates on the HEART study that the Havanese club of america donated over $10,000 towards (paid for by member dues). I could care less if the other group splinters off. But how it was announced, and the timing of 8 weeks before the National, was not planned out very well.
> 
> thanks for listening.
> Laura Pfab
> 
> This is not entirely accurate. The Havanese club of America donated $30.000 total to the Havanese Genetics project at TAMU and got an update from Dr Keith Murphy and his associates at the 2006 National, his findings will be published in the July/Aug issue of the Journal of Heredity, and he and his associates have agreed to give another presentation in Denver at the National even though our grant period was over in Feb 2006.
> That is it for my information for now. I work during the day so it is the evenings before I can respond. Plus I'm busy with the national specialty and making sure that it is the grandest event to date to showcase our Havanese breed. I agree that the announcement and reaction did not go as I intended it...and the levels of anger on both sides got way out of hand. I understand my emotional reaction...I mean it took a LOT of frustration to result in a dedicated group of people to want to walk away from a club that we worked our butts off for YEARS. What I didn't anticipate was that those who've harassed us for years would be so angry that we were FINALLY getting out of their hair. Go figure. Ok, let's see if I can buy a smiley face. Guess not
> 
> Doc


----------



## Julie

Doc,
when you click on reply to thread.....don't you get a group of smilies over to your right of the screen?Towards the bottom says "more".....if you click on any of them,it should add it to your post....then just "submit reply"


----------



## Doc

*Mea culpa*



Greg said:


> you need to go back and develop your timeline. The post that we had formed the HSDAA came before the mean spirited posts, and after several days Doc posted a reply......to which more mean spirited posts came up and then Doc posted another reply. In no instance did Doc start the mud slinging. I think several people should start apologizing and Doc isn't at the head of that list.


No, I didn't start it but I blew my cool and dove into the pit and that did not help matters any. Getting off the lists was the best thing I could do. They remind me of a train wreck...you don't want to look but you do then it's really gross and you're sorry...I'm past that. The anger has dissipated, calm has returned and I don't have to talk to them anymore. Life is good.

Doc


----------



## Julie

Doc,
we just all want you to be able to post a smilie!eace:


----------



## Leeann

Welcome Doc great to have you join.
Yes we are civilized here. We do sometime get really passionate but never what it sounds like it has been on the other forums.

LOL Julie is very passionate, she will bug you till you figure how to post a smile.. Julie you are a nut.


----------



## Julie

On this forum we like pictureshoto:
and Smilies :bathbaby:

You should go into the photo threads......fun to look at...
Knowledge is a BONUS! Just kidding! :laugh:


----------



## SMARTY

To get your different smileys go to the bottom of the the reply and go advanced.


----------



## irnfit

Is the only way to tell if a dog has CD through xrays? You guys have made me very anxious about all this. The pups needed a bath, I soaped them, and had Mom take pics. She is not the best photographer, ususally cuts peoples heads off.  The pics weren't bad, just a little far because she couldn't figure out how to use the zoom. 

I was concerned because when Kodi stands, sometimes he looks bowed. But the photos look straight. And now several posts say bowed doesn't mean CD.


----------



## irnfit

Welcome, Laura, Mary and Doc
We are a little less cranky here. We would much rather giggle and see puppy pics. :biggrin1: And we can all agree that we are very passionate about our dogs. I hope we can continue an honest, respectful dialogue with everyone involved.


----------



## MaddiesMom

:welcome: Laura, Mary and Doc. This is a friendly little forum (getting bigger each day!) and I'm sure you will like it. We respect each other and are always here to help one another. This has been an interesting topic to read. I lost my first beloved Havanese at 8 years of age to liver failure. She also had CD, I believe. My new Havanese is nearly 11 months old and has been fully tested, soaped, and comes from a reputable breeder. There's no guarantee in life, but we all love our Havs here and just want to do what's best for them. I'm sure you'll enjoy this forum!


----------



## ama0722

Doc,
Thanks for the reply. I remember reading some where- sorry as you can imagine I don't feel like digging through this post <BG> that there is not really a cuban standard? So when you say they are going back to the cuban standard to you mean the 1963 FCI? Just curious if there is really a cuban standard.

Amanda


----------



## Dawna

Thanks for posting the info on where and when we could read the TAMU report. That should make for a very interesting read. I can't wait. 
Dawna:whoo:

Okay, that was fast. I didn't have to wait long. There is a research upate from Dr. Murphy posted on the Yahoo list. I will ask for permission to post it here.


----------



## juliav

Hi Doc and :welcome: to the forum.


----------



## Doc

abuelashavanese said:


> Well, I'm real proud of PAN myself.
> 
> *Unfortunately, the HSDAA is wanting to remove his genes. *


He doesn't need genes, he's wearing PANtaloons! :croc:

Doc


----------



## Doc

*Smile!*



Julie said:


> Doc,
> we just all want you to be able to post a smilie!eace:


Ok, just for you...I know I can DO this.:focus: :frusty: :biggrin1:

There you go...I be emoticoning.

Doc


----------



## Doc

*Bowlegs/CD.*



irnfit said:


> Is the only way to tell if a dog has CD through xrays? You guys have made me very anxious about all this. The pups needed a bath, I soaped them, and had Mom take pics. She is not the best photographer, ususally cuts peoples heads off.  The pics weren't bad, just a little far because she couldn't figure out how to use the zoom.
> 
> I was concerned because when Kodi stands, sometimes he looks bowed. But the photos look straight. And now several posts say bowed doesn't mean CD.


This is not quite accurate. In some cases, if the deviation is very mild, you might need radiographs to detect abnormalities in the bones. But, many CD dogs can be diagnosed without radiographs...they are obvious once you get the hair out of the way which is the reason WHY we do soaped pictures...they are simply another tool for evaluating a coated breed. Another way to do it would be to cut a dog down with a 10 blade but most people think soaping is less extreme. If I knew how to insert pictures, I could show you some examples of CD that do not require radiographs for diagnosis.

Someone earlier stated that bowed legs were not necessarily CD...can whoever that was please explain in more detail? It is my understanding that normal bones grow evenly on both sides which result in (relatively) straight bones. CD can involve EITHER premature closure of the growth plates which, if evenly closed, results in short, straight legs or, it can involve uneven closure of the growth plate which results in a bone that grows longer on one side than the other which means the leg bows. Valgus deformity results when the medial (inside) of the radius continues to grow while the lateral (outside) stops or slows...this makes the dog turn out at the carpus which is commonly called 'French footed.' This is chondrodysplasia or CD. Sometimes one bone has premature closure and the other doesn't. If the radius continues to grow but the ulna has premature closure, it keeps the radius from growing normally and causes it to bow...this causes pain and can also resultin elbow dysplasia as the growing radius puts traction on the not growing ulna, distracting it at the joint. In severe cases, the ulna is cut to relieve the tension and allow the radius to grow normally. Bowed, deviated legs are simply NOT normal. CD is not limited to short legs...you can have normal length legs that are not straight (they continue to grow but grow unevenly) and you can also have asymmetry where one leg is normal and the other is not.

I'm off to bed...all I need now is a sleepy little smiley.  Got it!

Doc


----------



## mckennasedona

I'm looking at a photo of our previous dog, a little mixed breed named Maggie who was an owner turn in at the pound. Her front feet turn outward. I think its called easty/westy or something like that. She had a broad chest and short legs that seemed to meet at the "ankle". I think perhaps she was CD but she was never diagnosed as such because it never bothered her. I can see where it had the potential to though. We think she may have had some Havanese in her. If so, she was a badly bred Hav but we loved her dearly.

Susan


----------



## aradelat

*doctor murphy's thesis*



Doc said:


> Your surgeon might want to talk to Dr Murphy as his research has indicated that there is.
> 
> Doc


As I understand it, Keith Murphy was unable to segregate the gene or genes that supposedly is responsible for bowed legs and suspected linked health problems. My doctor said he had seen no evidence -- in Havanese or other dogs that are bred to have shortened, curved legs, like dachshunds -- of a link between that charecteristic and other dog ailments.

I have an open mind on the matter, and hope Murphy's latest study better explains the link.

But I'm a little concerned there may be an illogical panic in the Havanese world about the bowed leg issue. My doctor, an expert in dog orthopedics for over 30 years, says there should be no worry about it unless it's so severe it causes CD, a displacement of the elbow or knee.

If breeders want to breed out bow leggedness in Havanese, so be it. But they should be very sure its a symptom of a graver disease if they're going to tell Havanese owners that's why they're breeding out the bowed legs.


----------



## irnfit

Sweet dreams and thanks for the explanation. Is this "french footed" or just a bad photo?


----------



## aradelat

*dysplasia*



Doc said:


> This is not quite accurate. In some cases, if the deviation is very mild, you might need radiographs to detect abnormalities in the bones. But, many CD dogs can be diagnosed without radiographs...they are obvious once you get the hair out of the way which is the reason WHY we do soaped pictures...they are simply another tool for evaluating a coated breed. Another way to do it would be to cut a dog down with a 10 blade but most people think soaping is less extreme. If I knew how to insert pictures, I could show you some examples of CD that do not require radiographs for diagnosis.
> 
> Someone earlier stated that bowed legs were not necessarily CD...can whoever that was please explain in more detail? It is my understanding that normal bones grow evenly on both sides which result in (relatively) straight bones. CD can involve EITHER premature closure of the growth plates which, if evenly closed, results in short, straight legs or, it can involve uneven closure of the growth plate which results in a bone that grows longer on one side than the other which means the leg bows. Valgus deformity results when the medial (inside) of the radius continues to grow while the lateral (outside) stops or slows...this makes the dog turn out at the carpus which is commonly called 'French footed.' This is chondrodysplasia or CD. Sometimes one bone has premature closure and the other doesn't. If the radius continues to grow but the ulna has premature closure, it keeps the radius from growing normally and causes it to bow...this causes pain and can also resultin elbow dysplasia as the growing radius puts traction on the not growing ulna, distracting it at the joint. In severe cases, the ulna is cut to relieve the tension and allow the radius to grow normally. Bowed, deviated legs are simply NOT normal. CD is not limited to short legs...you can have normal length legs that are not straight (they continue to grow but grow unevenly) and you can also have asymmetry where one leg is normal and the other is not.
> 
> I'm off to bed...all I need now is a sleepy little smiley.  Got it!
> 
> Doc


As I understand it, CD is a term for dysplasia, which doesn't mean bowed legs but dysplasia of a joint. It's when the bone growth is so uneven the bones don't attach correctly at the elbow or knee. Not just that the bone growth is uneven.


----------



## mary c

posted:

"But, many CD dogs can be diagnosed without radiographs..."

better yet... SOME dogs MAY be diagnosed without radiographs, 
gross deformities can be assumed to be CD, 
but an injury causing the bowing, if it is unilateral is a possiblity, 
toxins, diet, various external influences can cause disruptions in the growth pattern of bone, can cause bowing of the leg or legs.

If the cause is a genetic one, which breeding choices can have an impact on or not,there is no way at this point to determine.

from the TAMU 12/ 06 newsletter
" Our estimates of heritability also changed, from 0.74 to 0.36. This simply means that the environment, or external factors (e.g., diet, etc.), also play a role in the development of the disease – or in other words – this disease is not have a completely genetic basis but that the genetic contribution to it is considerable"

and the estimates of heritablity is lower as more dogs are studied...

the earlier TAMU study based on 122 dogs rather than the latest study of 253 dogs, was double the heritablity estimate, so would an even larger # of dogs studied bring the heritablity estimate down? only further testing will tell.

Mary


----------



## aradelat

mary c said:


> posted:
> 
> "But, many CD dogs can be diagnosed without radiographs..."
> 
> better yet... SOME dogs MAY be diagnosed without radiographs,
> gross deformities can be assumed to be CD,
> but an injury causing the bowing, if it is unilateral is a possiblity,
> toxins, diet, various external influences can cause disruptions in the growth pattern of bone, can cause bowing of the leg or legs.
> 
> If the cause is a genetic one, which breeding choices can have an impact on or not,there is no way at this point to determine.
> 
> from the TAMU 12/ 06 newsletter
> " Our estimates of heritability also changed, from 0.74 to 0.36. This simply means that the environment, or external factors (e.g., diet, etc.), also play a role in the development of the disease - or in other words - this disease is not have a completely genetic basis but that the genetic contribution to it is considerable"
> 
> and the estimates of heritablity is lower as more dogs are studied...
> 
> the earlier TAMU study based on 122 dogs rather than the latest study of 253 dogs, was double the heritablity estimate, so would an even larger # of dogs studied bring the heritablity estimate down? only further testing will tell.
> 
> Mary


Do I understand that you are saying that bowed legs in Havanese are more likely to be caused by factors other than an inherited gene?


----------



## mary c

aradelat said:


> As I understand it, Keith Murphy was unable to segregate the gene or genes that supposedly is responsible for bowed legs and suspected linked health problems. My doctor said he had seen no evidence -- in Havanese or other dogs that are bred to have shortened, curved legs, like dachshunds -- of a link between that charecteristic and other dog ailments.
> 
> I have an open mind on the matter, and hope Murphy's latest study better explains the link.
> 
> But I'm a little concerned there may be an illogical panic in the Havanese world about the bowed leg issue. My doctor, an expert in dog orthopedics for over 30 years, says there should be no worry about it unless it's so severe it causes CD, a displacement of the elbow or knee.
> 
> If breeders want to breed out bow leggedness in Havanese, so be it. But they should be very sure its a symptom of a graver disease if they're going to tell Havanese owners that's why they're breeding out the bowed legs.


a very careful consideration to breeding choices is definitely necessary so that worse health issues are not created by limiting the gene pool unwisely.

for an individual dog with a bowing of the front legs, if there is no pain, and no lameness and no dysplasia, your Orthopedic specialist has a good point,
many Havanese and other breeds with bowed fronts are very sound, competing very successfully in agility, obedience, rally, freestyle etc.

on the other hand severe CD with resulting joint dysplasia is a very debilitating disease, causing some dogs to be crippled and to need drastic
orthopedic surgery to repair the legs, so if a genetic link to a cause could be found it would be a very good thing, when it will be found... time will tell, : )

Mary


----------



## mary c

thanks Julia, Maddie Irnfit (sp?) for the welcome : )

Mary


----------



## mary c

*thanks for the warm welcome !*

thanks Julia, Maddie Irnfit (sp?) for the welcome ound: :eace:

Mary


----------



## aradelat

*Thank you*



mary c said:


> a very careful consideration to breeding choices is definitely necessary so that worse health issues are not created by limiting the gene pool unwisely.
> 
> for an individual dog with a bowing of the front legs, if there is no pain, and no lameness and no dysplasia, your Orthopedic specialist has a good point,
> many Havanese and other breeds with bowed fronts are very sound, competing very successfully in agility, obedience, rally, freestyle etc.
> 
> on the other hand severe CD with resulting joint dysplasia is a very debilitating disease, causing some dogs to be crippled and to need drastic
> orthopedic surgery to repair the legs, so if a genetic link to a cause could be found it would be a very good thing, when it will be found... time will tell, : )
> 
> Mary


Thank you for explaining this so clearly....


----------



## mary c

aradelat said:


> Do I understand that you are saying that bowed legs in Havanese are more likely to be caused by factors other than an inherited gene?


no, not at all...

only that not all bowed legs are evidence of CD, or of a genetic nature..
injury, external/environmental influences, starting in the uterus and continuing to diet influences as a dog grows...humans poor diet lack of vit C
is well known cause of rickets.

if CD is suspected, an Orthopedic Specialist should be consulted, who would likely after a gross physical exam, order x-rays as a starting point to diagnose or rule out CD.

Mary


----------



## Julie

interesting information from all of you.........thank you.:beckyoc,you made my day when you could post a smilie!:whoo:


----------



## Havanasilks

So if the HSDAA plan to "breed away" from Rags Girl who was reportedly chocolate, and quite possibly the original source of the occasional chocolate color in Havanese, does that mean that the HSDAA Standard will not be
recognizing chocolate as a color for a HSD?
Thanks,
Robin


----------



## JASHavanese

aradelat said:


> If breeders want to breed out bow leggedness in Havanese, so be it. But they should be very sure its a symptom of a graver disease if they're going to tell Havanese owners that's why they're breeding out the bowed legs.


Come to find out, it's not just about breeding that causes CD in our Havanese like we were led to believe. Dr Murphy found out that the Havanese community wasn't being told of his findings so he promised to send his report that he submitted LAST YEAR so that we could all see it. I almost fell off my :couch2: when I read it tonight. Here it is

Howdy from Texas A&M!

We have a brief update on the Havanese research project at TAMU. As many of you probably read in the last letter, we have undertaken many different lines of investigation for this project: gene expression studies (microarray and real-time PCR), linkage association studies, as well as statistical analyses.

For those of you who attended the National Specialty in October, it was a pleasure to have the opportunity to visit and share information with you. We always enjoy meeting those people whose names we only know from the sample submission sheets! We hope that you are as excited about our recent results as we are.

The whole genome screen mentioned in the last newsletter has come nearer to completion. At last count, we have completed all reactions for nineteen chromosomes, and half the reactions for an additional five. As you may recall from our previous talks, each chromosome has a number of markers that we use as molecular "signposts." We have 3 to 6 of these "signposts" that can be combined in a single reaction, which we use to "survey" the chromosome. There are 40 chromosomes that we survey in the dog: the 38 autosomes plus the X and Y. The linkage analyses for these data are currently underway. Preliminary data shows some areas of interest on different chromosomes, but no significant scores have been obtained.

Our statistical analyses have provided the most provocative results: we now (within the last two weeks) have preliminary results supporting the presence of a major locus. What this means is that there appears to be one gene that provides the most influence on the development/presentation of the disease in the Havanese. This is not to say that there is only one gene; on the contrary, there are likely to be multiple genes involved in the overall presentation of the disease. These results were generated from a larger data set of 122 dogs, plus parents and grandparents, for a total data set of 253 individuals. This set of dogs comprises our "core" set of dogs for which we are running the linkage analyses and statistical analyses. *The results we presented in October were based on a smaller data set, thus explaining the differing results. Our estimates of heritability also changed, from 0.74 to 0.36. This simply means that the environment, or external factors (e.g., diet, etc.), also play a role in the development of the disease - or in other words - this disease is not have a completely genetic basis but that the genetic contribution to it is considerable. *
We have a new statistician on board, who is completely intrigued by the Havanese. Dr. Nathan Markward is a genetic epidemiologist at the Pennington Biomedical Research Center in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. His research is to better define the syndrome in the Havanese. Specifically, he is looking to identify signs that (1) segregate together, (2) may serve as indicators of overall dog health, and (3) are separate from, or unrelated to, the syndrome. We have identified 4 traits that co-segregate: heart murmurs, liver shunts, cataracts, and chondrodysplasia (CD). Encouragingly, CD appears to be a good indicator of overall health, meaning our ongoing development (with Dr. Sharon Kerwin of the TAMU College of Veterinary Medicine) of a standardized foreleg evaluation could serve as a valuable tool for breeders.

In working with Dr. Kerwin, we have radiographs from three dogs for use in developing a foreleg evaluation. We have at least two more dogs scheduled to be radiographed before the parameters of normal conformation are defined. Our goal is to create a grading scheme which provides an objective score based on multiple physiological measures, rather than a subjective classification scheme in which clinical assessments are reported as "mild/moderate/severe."

Our first paper, "Hereditary evaluation of multiple developmental abnormalities in the Havanese," is complete, and has been submitted to Journal of Heredity for review.

Again, as always, we thank you for your continued support of this project. Your dedication to our research never ceases to amaze us - through all of our requests for samples and test results, you have been gracious enough to give us whatever we need. We cannot thank you enough.

Happy holidays - we'll see you again in '07!

Keith Murphy 
& Alison Starr


----------



## mary c

Havanasilks said:


> So if the HSDAA plan to "breed away" from Rags Girl who was reportedly chocolate, and quite possibly the original source of the occasional chocolate color in Havanese, does that mean that the HSDAA Standard will not be
> recognizing chocolate as a color for a HSD?
> Thanks,
> Robin


interesting question Robin, I think you are right,

also very interesting is that the FCI 1963 standard it was pointed out here tonight did not allow for Black as a color.

Mary


----------



## Thumper

"_The results we presented in October were based on a smaller data set, thus explaining the differing results. Our estimates of heritability also changed, from 0.74 to 0.36. This simply means that the environment, or external factors (e.g., diet, etc.), also play a role in the development of the disease - or in other words - this disease is not have a completely genetic basis but that the genetic contribution to it is considerable." _

Wow.

This doesn't surprise me at all, I'm not a scientist, but I do know a little about environmental birth defects and disease.

So......say I decide to buy a "Havana Silk", do I have 100% guarantee that the dog won't have any medical problems or specific ones?

Kara


----------



## ama0722

Mary & Robin,
I thought that black wasn't included but apparently "havane" in italics (not sure why it is in italics though) means black with a redish color caused from the sun. I thought it was saying that in the FCI that your dog had to be majority white too as this is how they were in cuba? I think Doc answered that post a few pages back of mine-sorry this is too big of a thread for me to go find it this morning!

Amanda


----------



## ama0722

Jan,
Thanks for posting that information. Okay just to wonder if I am reading it correctly. Is that a considerate drop? Is it more likely that CD could be caused from enviornmental factors than genetics? Is that out of 1.0?

Amanda



> The results we presented in October were based on a smaller data set, thus explaining the differing results. Our estimates of heritability also changed, from 0.74 to 0.36. This simply means that the environment, or external factors (e.g., diet, etc.), also play a role in the development of the disease - or in other words - this disease is not have a completely genetic basis but that the genetic contribution to it is considerable.


----------



## Greg

aradelat said:


> As I understand it, Keith Murphy was unable to segregate the gene or genes that supposedly is responsible for bowed legs and suspected linked health problems. My doctor said he had seen no evidence -- in Havanese or other dogs that are bred to have shortened, curved legs, like dachshunds -- of a link between that charecteristic and other dog ailments.
> 
> I have an open mind on the matter, and hope Murphy's latest study better explains the link.
> 
> But I'm a little concerned there may be an illogical panic in the Havanese world about the bowed leg issue. My doctor, an expert in dog orthopedics for over 30 years, says there should be no worry about it unless it's so severe it causes CD, a displacement of the elbow or knee.
> 
> If breeders want to breed out bow leggedness in Havanese, so be it. But they should be very sure its a symptom of a graver disease if they're going to tell Havanese owners that's why they're breeding out the bowed legs.


I appreciate your curiosity. Those of us at Murph's presentation last year heard him say that CD, Cataracts, Liver problems and heart problems all run together. This is because what affects Havanese is a snydrome called Ockham's Syndrome. At first it was just an hypothesis, but last year at the National, Murph said the evidence supported the syndrome theory.

I very much appreciate your vet caring like he does. I think he should contact Murph. As a scientist I think Murph can probably explain it to him in ways that make more sense.


----------



## Greg

I'm going to retire from this thread. I've enjoyed all the PMs and emails and will continue to answer those, but we aren't covering much new information at this point and it seems most of the questions are about health rather than the new breed. And with the influx of registration applications and membership applications we have tons of work to do. I never realized there would be this much initial support. Thank you everyone.

Remember, the Havana Silk dog is a seperate breed because it LOOKs different. Many other members of this forum have commented on how their 2 havanese don't look alike. Laura lamented she'd be shunned because her dog has a silky coat and looks like an HSD. It all comes down to the same thing. They LOOK different because they ARE different.

There is an unofficial HSD yahoogroup called BluebonnetHSD. You can head there if you'd like more information on the breed. This elist doesn't exist to debate whether there should be an HSD or not. So if you have questions about the breed you can join, if you want to debate the dog's existance please don't bother.

questions sent to [email protected] will be answered. FAQ will be updated when we start getting other FAQs coming in.

We will be having Havana Silk Dog Fiestas nationwide where you, your family and your dogs can come to have fun with us. Keep an eye on the website for the schedules.


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

Thank you again Greg for your info & patience. I have learned a lot from you. 
Take care & hope to see you again at a Fiesta!


----------



## jillnors2

I'd like to know what some of you breeders think of Irnfit's picture? My girl looks just like that when wet.
Thank You


----------



## Eileen Marshall

I think Greg has left the building.:wave: THANK YOU! Has anyone found the Bluebonnet HSD yahoo group? I tried to find it and could not? This has been a wonderful, thread. It has answered many of my questions about my little rescued dog. 
Can you still do a DNA test from hair that is a year old? :drum: If I can do that it would answer a lot of my questions and may help the whole.
Has anyone that has or had a dog with CD have a problem with ruptured disk?
I do believe that it is a package and nutrition would play a part.


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

Eileen, may i ask which rescue did you get you pup from & how long did it take? I am only asking because i have signed with a few rescues myself.


----------



## Havanasilks

You can DNA test hair that is many years old. The only caveat is, you need a hair with the "root" (the little bulb that anchors it beneath the skin) still attached. The bulb is where the DNA resides.


----------



## Havanasilks

For anyone that was interested, Greg answered my question about chocolate Havanese off list. Apparently, the answer is "NO", as in no chocolates will be permitted in HSD's. The exact comment was the dogs can only have "black pigment" which, of course, excludes a self colored pigmented chocolate dog.

Also, to the poster asking about HSD's being guaranteed "healthy".....
No breed of dog can be "guaranteed healthy".....
The HSDAA is suggesting they will choose breeding stock that does not exhibit the phenotype believed to perpetuate CD and OS. This does does not rule out the conditions, especially in F-1 litters, but it may reduce it over time....I believe the comment was between 5 and 10 subsequent generations.
Again, this has been put forth as an opinion that embraces the idea that the AZ dogs brought the conditions into the Havanese breed in the first place.
Reduction is not elimination, nor will it change the possibility of new genetic faults suddenly appearing.
Robin


----------



## mckennasedona

This has been an interesting thread and amazingly civil. I am not a scientist nor do I really understand genetics (my college degree was in Broadcasting). If I am understanding the gist of it correctly the differences between the HSD and the Havs are: HSD has longer legs (but is not necessarily taller) and has a definite 1/3 head, 1/3 body, 1/3 leg structure. The HSD has a slightly longer muzzle than the Hav. The HSD has a silkier coat that is not a double coat. Does that about sum up the physical differences? Next time I go to a show I hope to have somoene point out a dog of each type. I will understand better if I can see the differences with my own eyes. I need to be careful who I ask though. I don't want anyone's blood pressure to rise.... 


Susan


----------



## tehashavanese

Eileen Marshall said:


> I think Greg has left the building.:wave: THANK YOU! Has anyone found the Bluebonnet HSD yahoo group? I tried to find it and could not?


If you send email to [email protected] you can get on the list. You will need to include your name when asking to join. If you want more information you can contact me at [email protected]

That list is not a discussion of whether anyone agress :frusty: with the HSD idea or a debate of its merits; its for those who are interested, or curious, to ask how and what do i do next type questions. Membership is "hidden" so that people can join quietly and remain out of the "fray" if they wish.

Steve Harris eace:


----------



## jolynn

Sooo, I *think* Skiver is HSD, and Shaw is Havanese? Or they are both Havanese? Skiver looks a lot different than Shaw; his face is longer and more petite; his legs are different, his hair is different. His eyes are not as round.


----------



## Eileen Marshall

*Shannon rescue*

I was not looking for a rescue I think he found me.I rescued my little Hav? from a migrant family that was going to hide him in a tiny room for the rest of his life. He was 8 weeks and I was teaching English to the mother. This was in Immokalee Fl. Migrant workers village. 
If I were to rescue a Havanese from a shelter I would be very careful. I spent over $4000. in vet bills. in a two year period. He was put down 2 months before his third birthday. HE had the best life with me I hate to think what would have happened to him if I had left him there. 
This time I wanted better odds. IT took me 9 months (Ben is my angelOF looking, reading and research.


----------



## Eileen Marshall

Thank you for that information. I guess it is too late for that. IM sure there is some hair from grooming or :behindsofa: but nothing that would have the root. It bothers me that I didn't know his pedigree. IT put me on a mission to stop back yard breeders and puppy mills.Or at least do something.


----------



## Missy

I think we are all sitting here looking at our dogs trying to figure out what's what--- Jasper in structure ( taller/ fine boned) looks more like a HSD - but his coat is definately not wash and wear. Cash has shorter legs,broader chest- but his coat is wash and wear (he looks more like the center fold in Dorthy . I think probably most of our dogs are mixed. But boy are they cute. 

But I have to say I am feeling similar to Julie - that with this new sub category I feel as though my dogs aren't as special as they were supposed to be. In the end it really doesn't matter but it does eak at you a little. What I do worry about is that somewhere down the line there may be health issues with these two. But just look how cute they are? :juggle:


----------



## irnfit

Eileen, I'm glad you said that about backyard breeders and puppy mills. And that's why I was so upset about this whole issue. No because someone wants to say there is another breed called the Havana Silk. If they have genetically proved that, then fine. 

What frustrates me is that Greg said this group of people tried to change the minds of others for over 8 years. Well, while they were "trying", how many more dogs were not bred to their healthiest? I just think they should have come forward sooner, so maybe there would be fewer dogs with problems. I am not badmouthing anyone. It is just my observation on this situation.


----------



## mary c

ama0722 said:


> Jan,
> Thanks for posting that information. Okay just to wonder if I am reading it correctly. Is that a considerate drop? Is it more likely that CD could be caused from enviornmental factors than genetics? Is that out of 1.0?
> 
> Amanda


while we did mention injury as a possible precursor to skeletal abnormalities,
a very astute member of the GNYHC shared this observation with me:

"____'s reading of this (the TAMU) report is that 2 out of three

>cases are environmental (like jumping off a bed as a

>pup, diet, etc) so we should be doing more educating

>about raising their puppies right? It is amazing to me

>frankly that any of them are OK considering the

>'flying wallenda' behaviors in our breed."

It is a GREAT point that he makes!!

for all breeds, excessive exercise and activity is contraindicated in growing puppies,

specifically for the potential injury to growth plates, such as running down stairs, jumping

off of high places, etc.,

and it is probably NOT stressed to many puppy buyers... I do, but how many do and even when

it is, how many puppies are near impossible to contain from their "flying wallenda" acts LOL?

Mary Cane

Moorea Havansee


----------



## Eileen Marshall

Michele I agree. IT probably took that long because it took a lot of courage to get to that point I suppose. If you think beyond these Havanese breeders who belong to HCA how many litters were born that claim to be purebred HAV's with false pedigrees. When I read that 200 litters were registered in March that could be 1000 dogs.Maybe 20 reputable breeders that is scary.The Florida search is loaded with Havanese bargains and then again more expenseive becuase they are breeding them smaller. How much smaller do you want them? It gets me fired up.


----------



## Greg

And I thought I was retired....hah! I got 12 different emails asking about the TAMU report and external factors affecting the affected. Rather than write all those emails I thought I'd point out the significance of this statement:

"The results we presented in October were based on a smaller data set, thus explaining the differing results. Our estimates of heritability also changed, from 0.74 to 0.36. This simply means that the environment, or external factors (e.g., diet, etc.), also play a role in the development of the disease – or in other words – this disease is not have a completely genetic basis but that the genetic contribution to it is considerable."

What those of us who are involved understood is that the entire purpose of TAMU taking up this study was to use animals to find ways to treat human disorders. And the part that interested Murph and TAMU was the hypothesis surrounding the biosynthesis of cholesterol. This started because a few informed breeders noticed similarities in human disorder characterized by a deficiency in the synthesis of cholesterol. SO rather than just calling the health problems out by individual names they hypothesized they all were grouped and called it Ockham's Syndrome. 

TAMU bit and started studying the genetics of havanese and their resulting health problems. In the interim we started feeding egg yolks to our Havanese as an extra source of Cholesterol. It was called The Egg Study (anyone? anyone?)  

So last year Murph comes out with his findings and guess what????? There's evidence to support the Hypothesis around Cholesterol. This is good news since the lab is trying to get funding from NIH and others and those organizations like to fund things that help humans. So, external factors is still in line with the initial hypothesis. Because that's what was thought all along................

And it fits like this: Cuban dogs were fed from the table. Eggs, beans, rice. Over a few hundred years they lost their ability to produce their own cholesterol, but it didnt matter because they were being supplemented. Now they show up at Dorothy's house and she breeds them to something else. SOmething with a "short front legs that tended to be a little round with a wide front." And BOOM:brick: the "dog from cuba" that didn't produce its own cholesterol and had genetically adapted to that fact, is now crossed with something that DOES produce cholesterol and this creates its own set of health problems as we are now affecting all those other 113 markers that had "fixed" themselves over a few hundred years. Farfetched? maybe, maybe not. 

The point is, HSDs look different from havanese. Two breeds, two looks. We can still all be friends. Ok so now I"m off again


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

I do have to say that when i was at the Specialty this month & i saw Doc's dogs(there were many others but i did not pet most of them) and touched them, i was really amazed at their coats. They were sooooo soft & SILKY. Completely different from my dogs. Now both my dogs coats are very soft but not like this. I literally dragged my husband over to touch them & he could not believe the difference in their coats. I wanted to take one home but there were too many people around!:biggrin1: 
It was just an observation that i wanted to mention.


----------



## vfeldman

I just got onto this LONG thread and just a few things...the DNA sample is a swab from the dogs cheek and gum area; no hair required.

Second, I have 3 Hav's 2 probably Arizona/mix and one HSD--LOVE them all!

Third, in the ring, the judges haven't a clue as to what to look for; this past weekend at the Reg Specialty; when the judge was thanked for the Sweepstakes judging, I heard him say....." It is so hard to judge; they all look so different!" Imagine trying to judge so many dogs with all the variety we see in the ones we own!

Health is critical. 

Vicki


----------



## JASHavanese

Missy said:


> I think we are all sitting here looking at our dogs trying to figure out what's what--- Jasper in structure ( taller/ fine boned) looks more like a HSD - but his coat is definately not wash and wear. Cash has shorter legs,broader chest- but his coat is wash and wear (he looks more like the center fold in Dorthy . I think probably most of our dogs are mixed. But boy are they cute.
> 
> But I have to say I am feeling similar to Julie - that with this new sub category I feel as though my dogs aren't as special as they were supposed to be. In the end it really doesn't matter but it does eak at you a little. What I do worry about is that somewhere down the line there may be health issues with these two. But just look how cute they are? :juggle:


I haven't looked at my dogs to see what they are because I already know. They're HAVANESE. All are straight legged, all would qualify for this break off from the HCA, but my furkids are HAVANESE. See the picture of Bandit who is on my picture along with my forum name? She would fit both groups and was bred by Greg. If you look at my website you'll see the others that would fit in both groups. 
Do they have a wash and wear coat? Sure, I wash it, they wear it. If only they would comb themselves now :dance: 
Your dog is just as special today as it was before this break off and will be just as special years from now. :first: 
Here's something to think about. Look at your children. Do they look exactly alike? If not, are you going to start classifying them into categories? :fencing: Is one of your children better than the other(s)? I have a redhead and a brunette. Should I do a test on them to see if they're really mine or should I tell one of them that they have a more correct look according to my family tree?
I think I'd rather still call them my children and shower them with love.


----------



## The Fussy Puppy Gang

JASHavanese said:


> I haven't looked at my dogs to see what they are because I already know. They're HAVANESE. All are straight legged, all would qualify for this break off from the HCA, but my furkids are HAVANESE. ... I have a redhead and a brunette. Should I do a test on them to see if they're really mine...


ROTFL - Okay Jan, your comment about the children reminds me of a woman who, in a Dear Abby column, said that her husband fools around so much she didn't know if their kids were HIS. Still makes me laugh.

As for the Havanese - your comment is right on! No matter what 'group' or 'side' you prefer, they're all Havanese right now and that hasn't changed. What happens years down the line won't affect anyone's pet today.

I would hope the ethical breeders on both sides will want to breed away from genetic problems wherever possible. It's the right thing to do - period. Outside influences will always exist, but it doesn't excuse ignoring the inheritable problems that can be addressed.

So no matter which 'type' you prefer, the bottom line is always make sure you're dealing with a responsible, ethical breeder.

Wanda


----------



## lcerny

I realize that Greg you are saying the HSDAA is a break off because the "Havana Silk Dog" is different in type from the "Havanese" and not in health. But after reading through the whole website, several times, I must say that the website, definitely, makes it sound like the "Havana Silk Dog" is healthier than Havanese and that is one reason this group has decided to break off. It really makes it sound like all of these faults and problems came from one set of dogs the website callsthe "Arizona type". Perhaps that is not how the HSDAA is trying to sound but it definitely gives that impression, atleast to me it did. Which would explain why now so many people are asking if their dogs are healthy or not because of who they are out of. 

Also when discussing type in this breed, the Havanese, (I say this breed because I believe they are all one breed and that is a Havanese) especially coat texture, you can get tons of answers and I believe that is because the breed is still young within AKC. With that said look at some breeds that have been in AKC for a while, the Standard Poodle for example, and take a BIS Standard Poodle and a Pet Poodle, there is going to be a big difference between them. Or a Maltese, you take one that is a top winning Maltese and place it next to a pet Maltese, most of the time they are going to look very different, but they are still both Maltese. Or look at the difference between the Labrador bred for the show ring and those bred more for hunting. In the past many people who use Labradors for hunting have been upset because they say dogs that were winning in the show ring could never make it in the field. Therefore, I think they are all Havanese. 

Just my thoughts on the matter!!!


----------



## JASHavanese

The Fussy Puppy Gang said:


> ROTFL - Okay Jan, your comment about the children reminds me of a woman who, in a Dear Abby column, said that her husband fools around so much she didn't know if their kids were HIS. Still makes me laugh.
> 
> As for the Havanese - your comment is right on! No matter what 'group' or 'side' you prefer, they're all Havanese right now and that hasn't changed. What happens years down the line won't affect anyone's pet today.
> 
> I would hope the ethical breeders on both sides will want to breed away from genetic problems wherever possible. It's the right thing to do - period. Outside influences will always exist, but it doesn't excuse ignoring the inheritable problems that can be addressed.
> 
> So no matter which 'type' you prefer, the bottom line is always make sure you're dealing with a responsible, ethical breeder.
> 
> Wanda


LOL can you imagine keeping a straight face and responding to the woman who wrote to the Dear Abby column?ound: 
Wanda, you said the magical word. ETHICAL. Ethical breeders will do whatever it takes to improve the breed. 
How do you find an ethical breeder? Your guess is as good as mine. Some that I thought were ethical really raise my eyebrows now. Some I heard weren't ethical I've found out have very high ethics. And before anyone asks, I'm not going to name any names because who knows if I have it right?
Your job is to do your homework and work with a breeder for a long time, ask others what kind of dealings they've had with them, make sure they do testing and don't take their word for it, go to the offa.org site and back it up or look at their paperwork. If you're looking at a puppy from a breeder that has paperwork that isn't on the offa.org website, their vet's name is on that paperwork. Call them and ask if they did the tests and what the results were.
I had Bandit's hip prelims done and didn't have my glasses with me at the vet's office and missed the box to check to post the results to the offa.org website. If that box isn't checked, they won't post them. I couldn't show her results on the offa.org website at the time (they're there now) but I posted to my website her prelims where anyone could call her vet to verify the results. 
Just do your homework. Think that's hard? :frusty: Think of the breeders who are looking for the very best stud suited to what they think will improve the breed goes through. For the breeding I just did, I had a long list in front of me that took months to go through and one by one they got crossed off for one reason or another. With each stud I looked at, I went as far back as I could and looked at the health history and size and coat and teeth and and and...... I wanted to pull my hair out some days :Cry: so instead I cut it short :bounce: ound: It's starting to grow back now so all is good with the world :whoo:


----------



## ama0722

I was looking at all kinds of pictures of havanese today on the gallery. I think rather than saying it appears to be 2 breeds, I think one could break them down more than that. I also think this is why a lot of us were attracted to the breed too! All the different colors are amazing. Is there any breed that has as many colors as havanese? 

I was reading some post from breeders who say you take the great things and the not so great things about your dog and breed to improve and that is what each focus on. So maybe this is the reason for a lot of the differences too. One breeder might be focusing on fronts, another bone structure, another coat in any given litter. I also saw the reminder about not even knowing for sure what dogs the cubans used! So maybe they had a lot of variation in what their dogs looked like too! I can't imagine if they didn't have the funds for shots, they were able to concentrate on breed type as much as we are able to. Also when I look at the American Havanese v. Hungarian, Sweedish, I think they do look like the same breed!

I think I am definetly interested in how to improve the health of this breed though and find it realy interesting that environmental factors are more likely to cause CD than genetics! Makes me think gezz about all the things I let Dora do as a pup! She would fly up the stairs and fall down them all the time... yikes!

It has been a very interesting thread and whatever happens, so be it. Thanks to Greg and everyone else who has contributed and if anything taught us a lot more about the history of our little ones. I have one little girl who is absolutely adored and a great member of my family!

Amanda


----------



## cfabisch

Boy, I've just spent a lot of the day reading all these posts. I signed off of the big Havanese list because the discussion was becoming less about information gathering and more about slamming the opposition. 

I just want to take a moment to mention how much I appreciate those on this list who have been able to ask questions, provide answers and enter into a dialogue without becoming too contentious. Certainly, I've seen some mean-spirited posts, but most folks it seems are curious and respectful of both sides.

Thank you for those asking the good questions and for Greg, who is very courageous to continue to patiently (more often than not) answer and respond to the queries. I can very well understand why many of those who in the HSA club choose to remain anonymous at this point with all the anger and hostility directed at them. Change is never easy and I'm sure they didn't leap to this conclusion lightly.

As for me, I'm still gathering information, so I appreciate (almost) everything I read.

Cathy


----------



## SMARTY

Welcome Cathy, you will enjoy it here.


----------



## ruthann

I thank all of those who have been answering all our questions, especialy Greg and Doc. I found this thread of great interest and have learned a great deal. I will watch this issue play out in the future. As Annabelle is my beloved, spayed companion, we can contribute not problems to our beloved breed, I will continue to worry about the possible illnesses she may have to deal with because she is deffinetly"French Footed". I would not have know this without Greg and his pictures and his sharing his knowledge. She is beautiful, charming, full of fun and contributes to makeing my elder years enjoyable. I thank Barbara Walters for interducing Cha Cha to me through the View. My sons gave her to me for "Mother's Day". This has been a very interesting thread!!!


----------



## Doc

*Segregating genes.*



aradelat said:


> As I understand it, Keith Murphy was unable to segregate the gene or genes that supposedly is responsible for bowed legs and suspected linked health problems. My doctor said he had seen no evidence -- in Havanese or other dogs that are bred to have shortened, curved legs, like dachshunds -- of a link between that charecteristic and other dog ailments.
> 
> I have an open mind on the matter, and hope Murphy's latest study better explains the link.
> 
> Off the top of my head, the genes that segregated together were involved with chondrodysplasia, liver and heart problems...maybe one other...cancer?
> I'd have to go look it up and it's bedtime and, anyhow, next month the paper will be out and everyone can read it for themselves.
> 
> Doc


----------



## Doc

*Chondrodysplasia defined.*



aradelat said:


> As I understand it, CD is a term for dysplasia, which doesn't mean bowed legs but dysplasia of a joint. It's when the bone growth is so uneven the bones don't attach correctly at the elbow or knee. Not just that the bone growth is uneven.


That is not correct. Chondrodysplasia..."Most individuals who deal with chondrodysplasias would agree that this term refers collectively to a genetically and clinically heterogeneous group of disorders of skeletal development and growth."

Dysplasia is defined as "Dysplasia: Abnormal in form" so elbow dysplasia describes abnormal formation of the elbow. Chondro is the prefix for 'cartilage' so chondrodysplasia involves a defect in cartilage which is where the bone is growing at the growth plates. Chondrodysplasia may result in enough deformity to result in elbow dysplasia if the forces are enough to distract and deform the elbow.

Doc


----------



## Doc

*Vit C deficiency does not cause rickets.*



mary c said:


> no, not at all...
> 
> only that not all bowed legs are evidence of CD, or of a genetic nature..
> injury, external/environmental influences, starting in the uterus and continuing to diet influences as a dog grows...humans poor diet lack of vit C
> is well known cause of rickets.
> 
> if CD is suspected, an Orthopedic Specialist should be consulted, who would likely after a gross physical exam, order x-rays as a starting point to diagnose or rule out CD.
> 
> Mary


Sorry, not quite accurate. Vit C deficiency may result in Scurvy. It is Vit D deficiency that results in rickets. Both of these in humans, of course...only humans, new world monkeys and guinea pigs cannot manufacture their own vitamin C. :croc:

Doc


----------



## Doc

*Neither...*



irnfit said:


> Sweet dreams and thanks for the explanation. Is this "french footed" or just a bad photo?


It doesn't look like either. It looks like a young dog whose chest has yet to develop enough to get the elbows out so the entire legs are rotated slightly out...if you take this dog by the elbows and rotate the front legs medially, the feet will be straight in front of it.:biggrin1:

Doc


----------



## Doc

*Yes.*



Havanasilks said:


> So if the HSDAA plan to "breed away" from Rags Girl who was reportedly chocolate, and quite possibly the original source of the occasional chocolate color in Havanese, does that mean that the HSDAA Standard will not be
> recognizing chocolate as a color for a HSD?
> Thanks,
> Robin


That is correct.

Doc


----------



## Doc

*Quoting Dr Murphy...*



JASHavanese said:


> Come to find out, it's not just about breeding that causes CD in our Havanese like we were led to believe. Dr Murphy found out that the Havanese community wasn't being told of his findings so he promised to send his report that he submitted LAST YEAR so that we could all see it. I almost fell off my :couch2: when I read it tonight. Here it is
> 
> I am going to politely suggest that people stop 'interpreting" Dr Murphy's update unless have a degree in molecular genetics and stop putting words in his mouth about why he shared it. This 'spinning' of his motives and misinterpretation of his report is really annoying him. His findings do indicate a 'significant' genetic component for OS and the genes for CD and the other health issues DO segregate out together differently in affected vs normal dogs. Dr Murphy and his lab are working to find resolution for the health issues of ALL of our dogs no matter what we call them...he doesn't need this aggrevation. His energies would be better spent doing research to help the dogs (he told me this tonight)
> 
> Doc


----------



## irnfit

Thanks for the comments, Doc. I didn;t think it was anything, because she moves too well. She jumps with no problems and loves to run. Shelby just turned 8 mos.


----------



## good buddy

Havtahava said:


> The HSDAA are trying to preserve a particular look. I don't consider it an exclusion or a slam on my dogs and hope you don't either. I health test my dogs, make sure I have dogs of sound temperament, ensure they have the critical elements of breed type, and make sure I stick to a protocol to do the very best I can by the breed.


Nah. I already know I have the best dog possible LOL! Whether he's called a Havanese, or an HSD...makes no difference. At the end of the day, he's my dog Rufus. That makes him number one in my book :first:


----------



## Beamer

Ok, I just read this ENTIRE thread tonight while beamer and my wife were napping. Wow, I feel like my eye balls are going to fall out of my head..lol.. 2 different breeds? Very interesting I think..

I remember one of the 1st posts I made on this forum about 4 months ago. It was a post on why everyones Havanese look different. This was when I first started researching the breed and thought to ask the question.. I guess my initial observation was right, everyones dogs DO look SO different. I've never seen such differences in other breeds. Pretty crazy stuff. I wonder what Beamer is?? lol.. I know hes a very handsome boy and thats all I care about at this point.. hhahaaha


----------



## ama0722

okay so are we even more confused about CD? So when we talk about CD in Havanese, it often comes with other genetic problems. Then we talked about breeds that are dwarf like where it is breed in. So do those breeds of dogs have some of the other health problems that go along with CD or is it just havanese where the genes congregate?

I also find it really interesting that with corgis, they are a dwarf breed but how fast and agile they are. It would seem totally opposite. 

Amanda


----------



## Doc

Doc said:


> That is not correct. Chondrodysplasia..."Most individuals who deal with chondrodysplasias would agree that this term refers collectively to a genetically and clinically heterogeneous group of disorders of skeletal development and growth."
> 
> Dysplasia is defined as "Dysplasia: Abnormal in form" so elbow dysplasia describes abnormal formation of the elbow. Chondro is the prefix for 'cartilage' so chondrodysplasia involves a defect in cartilage which is where the bone is growing at the growth plates. Chondrodysplasia may result in enough deformity to result in elbow dysplasia if the forces are enough to distract and deform the elbow.
> 
> Doc


Good morning all...I woke up this morning with the thought that if people put more energy into selecting away from CD dogs (or bowed legs or easty/westy or whatever you want to call it) rather than trying to excuse it or convince themselves that it is not heritable (which it is) OR a pathologic condition (which it is), we'd all be a few more generations down the road to eliminating it from our dogs. So it's polygenic (influenced both by genetics AND affected by environment)...so what? So is hip dysplasia...who is advocating breeding dogs with hip dysplasia because we don't know the mode of inheritance and because it can be affected by environment? (Please don't jump in with 'I know someone who bred a dysplastic dog...because someone did it doesn't make it a GOOD idea any more than it's a desirable thing to breed dogs with abnormal bone development.) Luxating patellas...we know that this is considered a heritable condition...occasionally an injury can cause a luxation...so who thinks we should be breeding dogs with luxating patellas just because a few cases may be due to injury? Legg-Calve-Perths...a genetic disease...there MAY be an environmental effect due to injury but it is considered a genetic disease...who thinks we should be breeding dogs with LCP? I just don't understand why some people are so intent on finding reasons to continue to breed dogs with skeletal deformities when there is considerable evidence that it is not only genetic but also is very likely associated with other health issues (which may or may not show up in every dog...do you feel lucky today comes to mind. The result, on the unlucky days, are unhealthy puppies and heartbroken owners. Who wants to be responsible for that misery?) Even if it were totally benign (which it is NOT...even though mild cases may not interfere with function, a bowed leg is NOT anatomically sound based simply on the laws of physics), it's NOT correct for the Havanese OR the HSD. :ranger: eep:

Doc :brushteeth:


----------



## juniormint

pfabulus said:


> The one consistent thing I heard the entire time is that I shouldn't be showing my Havana Silk Dog in the ring with the Havanese. That was quite hurtful. Those of us with the Silkier Havanese will eventually be kept out of the show ring because of this divide. QUOTE]
> 
> I'm new here. I found out about this forum on one of the yahoo groups.
> 
> I read this entire thread over the past 3 days. I've read all the mean things people on the yahoo groups are saying. I want to say I like this forum better because it seems the mean people aren't here. I like that.
> 
> The quote above from Laura convinced me that what the HSDAA is doing is a natural progression of any breed. Even Laura admits people can look at these dogs and see the difference. The AKC defines a breed as: Breed A domestic race of dogs (selected and maintained by man) with a common gene pool and characterized appearance and function.
> 
> It seems to me that although many do not want this split, if you can see the difference in the dogs then it might meet the definition of a seperate breed.
> 
> I do have some questions. Laura states this:
> 
> "The facts are this. The group that has broken off was key in changing the standard from the original 1963 FCI standard to what it is today. But, they now say that they weren't allowed to make the changes that they wanted to the standard. Unfortunately, the meeting minutes will show that this is not true."
> 
> So my questions are these. How many Standards have there been? Who was instrumental in their changes and why? Did Doc and Diane write the Standards going away from the 1963 FCI and then write Standards to come back to the 1963 FCI? From all that has been written it seems Laura's statement is in err. Could someone who was around way back then please comment?:biggrin1:


----------



## marbenv

Doc,

ABSOLUTELY!! Why on earth would anyone CHOOSE to breed anything with even a 10% chance of breeding in a deformity, ESPECIALLY when there are other health problems that go along with it. And we now know, from scientific research, (not luck and happenstance) that the percentage is higher than that! This fact does not take away from our pets who are already here. It's just the right, ethical, and moral thing to do to make every possible effort to breed only healthy dogs from here forward. It's one thing to say, "We didn't know", but now we ALL know--based on science. From the posts, it seems like some are thinking--well, the percentage isn't as high as we first thought, so it doesn't matter all that much. YES IT DOES! It's high enough that if the dogs with these problems continue in the gene pool, they are still polluting that pool. I don't care what you call them, let's just make darn sure we're breeding for healthy ones or we're not much better than the back-yard breeders who toss the coin. 

Just my two-cents worth!eace: 

Marsha


----------



## jillnors2

I have a question, if you breed a Dog with OFA FAIR hips to a bitch with FAIR hips, are their offspring more likely to have hip Dysplasia? It seems to me the answer would be yes.


----------



## cfabisch

Thanks for the welcome, Sandi (Smarty's mom)!


----------



## irnfit

Doc, 
I think I am correct that in reading it was stated that if these things are bred out the the Havs, they begin to look like a different dog, thus the HSD. Does this mean that in time, there will no longer be a breed known as the Havanese?


----------



## mckennasedona

I don't understand why anyone would breed a dog with CD. It's obviously not normal. I know that the responsible HAV breeders are breeding away from it but aren't there other breeds of dog where they DO breed for the curved legs, or am I way out in left field with that thought (I'm thinking of Dachshunds, for instance)? If I'm correct, do those dogs have a predisposition to the OS too and if so, how could they knowingly take that chance with their dogs?

Susan


----------



## Havtahava

> if you breed a Dog with OFA FAIR hips to a bitch with FAIR hips, are their offspring more likely to have hip Dysplasia?


 It seems to me that you'd be more likely to get pups who rate "fair" on their OFA tests. Those puppies may be more prone to injury if they are jumping around during their growth stage, but that's just an opinion from a novice reader, not someone with veterinary training.

OFA has seven categories for hips: Excellent, Good, Fair, Borderline, Mild Hip Dysplasia, Moderate Hip Dysplasia, and Severe Hip Dysplasia.

In my opinion, I think you could breed any of the first three just fine, but if I had a dog that was rated "Fair", I would probably seek out a "Good" or "Excellent" (assuming everything else is good about the dog).


----------



## Greg

Sporting dog people say not to breed a fair to an excellent because there may be a dramatic difference in the hips. They say it's best to go from Fair to Good, from Good to Fair. I don't know. I know the first 3 are passing, the last 4 are not.


----------



## Greg

irnfit said:


> Doc,
> I think I am correct that in reading it was stated that if these things are bred out the the Havs, they begin to look like a different dog, thus the HSD. Does this mean that in time, there will no longer be a breed known as the Havanese?


Not at all. They'll probably look much the same as they do now. People see 2 types of dogs in the ring, only one type is leaving.


----------



## Havanasilks

*Question for Greg or Doc....*

So if I were to have one or more of my dogs evaluated as an HSD and the remainder of my dogs continue to be Havanese only, would the HSDAA's
allow me to still breed my now HSD dog/dogs with my Havanese if the resulting pups were to remain as Havanese only? 
Robin


----------



## aradelat

*ahh thanks*



Doc said:


> That is not correct. Chondrodysplasia..."Most individuals who deal with chondrodysplasias would agree that this term refers collectively to a genetically and clinically heterogeneous group of disorders of skeletal development and growth."
> 
> Dysplasia is defined as "Dysplasia: Abnormal in form" so elbow dysplasia describes abnormal formation of the elbow. Chondro is the prefix for 'cartilage' so chondrodysplasia involves a defect in cartilage which is where the bone is growing at the growth plates. Chondrodysplasia may result in enough deformity to result in elbow dysplasia if the forces are enough to distract and deform the elbow.
> 
> Doc


Ahh thanks. I think I understand. So CD refers to dysplasia in the cartilage, not in the joints and could result in dysplasia of the joints?


----------



## aradelat

*many types in ring*



Greg said:


> Not at all. They'll probably look much the same as they do now. People see 2 types of dogs in the ring, only one type is leaving.


I see at least a dozen "types" in the ring. All sizes, muzzle shapes, fur texture, leg lengths, chest conformation, tail heights, ear size, eye shapes, etc...


----------



## Doc

*Separation*



Havanasilks said:


> So if I were to have one or more of my dogs evaluated as an HSD and the remainder of my dogs continue to be Havanese only, would the HSDAA's
> allow me to still breed my now HSD dog/dogs with my Havanese if the resulting pups were to remain as Havanese only?
> Robin


The pups could not be registered with the HSDAA

Doc


----------



## Doc

*CD*



aradelat said:


> Ahh thanks. I think I understand. So CD refers to dysplasia in the cartilage, not in the joints and could result in dysplasia of the joints?


Again...'dysplasia' describes abnormal formation...it's an adjective that describes what ever noun it is modifying. Elbow, hip, renal (kidney) dysplasia, Chondrodysplasia, etc.


----------



## Doc

*Time to go...*

I have enjoyed this venue...far more civilized than Yahoo but, it is time for those who are members of HSDAA to devote their energies to the new enterprise. I would suggest that those of us involved with HSDAA leave the building and allow the HAVANESE FORUM to return to conversations about Havanese. :focus:

Doceace:


----------



## RedHeadedGator

Doc - thanks again for all of your input! It has been a pleasure


----------



## mary c

Doc said:


> Good morning all...I woke up this morning with the thought that if people put more energy into selecting away from CD dogs (or bowed legs or easty/westy or whatever you want to call it) rather than trying to excuse it or convince themselves that it is not heritable (which it is) OR a pathologic condition (which it is), we'd all be a few more generations down the road to eliminating it from our dogs. So it's polygenic (influenced both by genetics AND affected by environment)...so what? So is hip dysplasia...who is advocating breeding dogs with hip dysplasia because we don't know the mode of inheritance and because it can be affected by environment? (Please don't jump in with 'I know someone who bred a dysplastic dog...because someone did it doesn't make it a GOOD idea any more than it's a desirable thing to breed dogs with abnormal bone development.) Luxating patellas...we know that this is considered a heritable condition...occasionally an injury can cause a luxation...so who thinks we should be breeding dogs with luxating patellas just because a few cases may be due to injury? Legg-Calve-Perths...a genetic disease...there MAY be an environmental effect due to injury but it is considered a genetic disease...who thinks we should be breeding dogs with LCP? I just don't understand why some people are so intent on finding reasons to continue to breed dogs with skeletal deformities when there is considerable evidence that it is not only genetic but also is very likely associated with other health issues (which may or may not show up in every dog...do you feel lucky today comes to mind. The result, on the unlucky days, are unhealthy puppies and heartbroken owners. Who wants to be responsible for that misery?) Even if it were totally benign (which it is NOT...even though mild cases may not interfere with function, a bowed leg is NOT anatomically sound based simply on the laws of physics), it's NOT correct for the Havanese OR the HSD. :ranger: eep:
> 
> Doc :
> 
> unfortunately this is the kind of thinking that starts snowballing down a very slippery slope of changing what people said into something entirely different, usually toward ones own end .
> :tape:
> 
> if the percentage of environmental factors are as high or twice as high as the genetic factors according to research to date, (and the latest reports showing the genetic componet halved from earlier research from a smaller group) then it is IMPORTANT to consider and continue research into these issues and to be positive about the facts coming to light.
> 
> Understanding the cause of a problem, inherited vs environmental is crucial to trying to eliminate or minimize the problem...
> :doh:
> being mypoic and looking at one possible component is self limiting as far as finding the truth .
> 
> saying that folks who truly want the reseach to find the answers that will help our dogs, (not answers that some want to hear because it fits their agenda),
> WHATEVER those answers will be,
> be they environmental or genetic or a combination,
> to say they are wanting to breed dogs with skeletal deformities is a far far leap from the reality.
> :crazy:
> those reading the reseach updates with open minds and dogs's welfare at heart, not looking for personal glory and fame for a "discovery" that will make them famous
> 
> but for what can be learned that will help the breed and not trying to spread rumors about other breeders are honestly in it for the dogs, not their own ego
> glorification.
> :whoo:
> breeding away from faults, is not new, breeding for healthy dogs and AWAY from medical problems including CD if it is not correct to a breed, is not new...
> this is not a discovery ..
> : )
> the dogs behind the HSDAA dogs have the same issues, and those breeding silky dogs are producing dogs with health problems... there is no proof, no facts they can show that their breeding choices are producing any less faults and medical issues as other breeders' choices.
> :ear:
> The Havanese fancy is very proactive regarding health and health testing.
> 
> Judges in the ring are commenting on how far the Havanese have come, that the consistency and quality they are seeing is making it more difficult to choose a winner on a given day,
> and recently in the Northeast, not a bastion of HSDAA breeders, commenting on the wonderful fronts they are seeing in the ring.
> 
> Havanese breeders are not breeding dogs with CD or other medical issues, except as in every breed there are irresponsible breeders, byb and puppy mills.
> 
> to suggest that those who choose NOT to follow a limited few who want to be the self proclaimed "royalty" that will work with a limited gene pool in a breed where the gene pool is small to begin with,
> are not doing so with the breed's best interest at heart is self serving and transparent
> 
> it would be great if a topic could be explored without using it to point fingers at others and to spread negativity
> :smash:
> accentuate the positive to prove a point...
> it is possible...
> :yo:
> 
> Mary


----------



## Julie

Did I get this right.......Doc is no longer a member on this forum?She moved on to the Havana silk forum?Maybe I misunderstood........but it seems we got alot of new hav people in the past week or so......I'd like to see them hang around.


----------



## mary c

an edit to the previous post :

Understanding the cause of a problem, inherited and/or environmental is crucial to trying to eliminate or minimize the problem...
:doh:


----------



## mary c

"Even if it were totally benign (which it is NOT...even though mild cases may not interfere with function, a bowed leg is NOT anatomically sound based simply on the laws of physics), "

Hmmm, food for thought.

long low dogs that are bred with bowed fronts and easty westy fronts as called for in their standard to reflect their function, corgies, dachshunds, glen of imal, various go to ground breeds... 
are sound... their curved fronts serve them, the go to ground dogs have easy westy and curved fronts to enhance their digging, to help to push dirt to the side as they dig out a tunnel... the glen of imal was a spit turner, and the bowed fronts were to give the dog "torque" and strength it is said to help to turn the massive spits that roasted the meat,
they are sound and their standard reflects their function.
Many a dog with a less than perfectly straight, or bowed front (not grossly deformed) is successful in agility and performance events, many on this list no doubt have dogs without straight fronts that are very agile and most likely will have normal function for their lifetime, some will have problems as will some with straight fronts, they are not immune to bone or joint problems either as they mature.

please, do not jump the gun and make assumptions that because I know that some dogs and some breeds are sound though they do not have straight fronts, 
that therfore I must choose to breed dogs with anything but straight fronts, or with CD - 
as nothing could be further from the truth.
I breed Havanese to the AKC Standard and do NOT breed dogs with bowed fronts. let's avoid that slippery slope.
:yo: 
Mary


----------



## ama0722

Mary,
Thanks for your thoughts that is just what I was wondering a few posts back. I would be really interested from an environmental standpoint to protect my dog from CD... especially if what his results show is that for every puppy genetically born with CD, 2 others get it from environmental factors. 

I also posted about the breeds that are breed to the ground. I do agility with Dora and corgis are in the next jump height and to watch them even if they were bred on purpose with these, they still definetly get around no problem. Those dogs are super fast and can turn very easily. It is just weird to think one breed of dogs trying to get rid of a problem that cripples their movement, another breed uses to excel.

Amanda


----------



## Honey Poney's

ama0722 said:


> Mary,
> Thanks for your thoughts that is just what I was wondering a few posts back. I would be really interested from an environmental standpoint to protect my dog from CD... especially if what his results show is that for every puppy genetically born with CD, 2 others get it from environmental factors.
> 
> I also posted about the breeds that are breed to the ground. I do agility with Dora and corgis are in the next jump height and to watch them even if they were bred on purpose with these, they still definetly get around no problem. Those dogs are super fast and can turn very easily. It is just weird to think one breed of dogs trying to get rid of a problem that cripples their movement, another breed uses to excel.
> 
> Amanda


That's why is still say that not every dog with curved front has CD,
but every dog with CD has a curved front.
My opinion, my vets opinion.

Christine
Honey Poney's Havanese.

(P.S. This *doesn't* mean that I breed with dogs that have curved front, CD or no CD.)


----------



## juniormint

mary c said:


> those reading the reseach updates with open minds and dogs's welfare at heart, not looking for personal glory and fame for a "discovery" that will make them famous


The results we presented in October were based on a smaller data set, thus explaining the differing results. Our estimates of heritability also changed, from 0.74 to 0.36. This simply means that the environment, or external factors (e.g., diet, etc.), also play a role in the development of the disease - or in other words - *this disease is not have a completely genetic basis but that the genetic contribution to it is considerable. *
We have a new statistician on board, who is completely intrigued by the Havanese. Dr. Nathan Markward is a genetic epidemiologist at the Pennington Biomedical Research Center in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. His research is to better define the syndrome in the Havanese. Specifically, he is looking to identify signs that (1) segregate together, (2) may serve as indicators of overall dog health, and (3) are separate from, or unrelated to, the syndrome. *We have identified 4 traits that co-segregate: heart murmurs, liver shunts, cataracts, and chondrodysplasia (CD). Encouragingly, CD appears to be a good indicator of overall health, meaning our ongoing development (with Dr. Sharon Kerwin of the TAMU College of Veterinary Medicine) of a standardized foreleg evaluation could serve as a valuable tool for breeders. *

Mary,

It would appear TAMU is putting a lot of emphasis on the CD portion, going so far as to say the genetics portion is considerable. A lot more than you are. Your posts seem to say CD is ok because it can be environmental. But all the dogs you listed with CD (Dachshund) are bred that way rather than the environment making them that way. Besides, our dogs aren't supposed to have curved fronts (for any reason). Mine does but that's because while I bought her from an HCA member, that didn't mean they knew what they were doing.

Also, could you please stop the digs at other posters? This "royalty" "personal glory" and "famous" stuff doesn't really have any bearing on the topic and only puts you in a poor light. I came away from the yahoo lists for just that reason.


----------



## marbenv

I just can't help it. Have to contribute my 2c worth again. I do have a science background and know a little about scientific research and published papers in peer-reviewed journals. When Dr. Murphy's paper is actually published, then we can see what findings are stastically significant. Then these factors will lead to further research, I am sure. It is important to determine WHAT environmental factors are contributors to the health problems in these dogs and hopefully that already is or will soon become someone's research. Without that information, it will be impossible to control their influence, (other than preventing injury). One must also remember that although environmental factors were a higher contributer than the genetic issue, those factors are composed of an unknown number and type of elements. However, if the genomes are a known, selective breeding can be done to control this part of the equation and lower the incidence of disease. I'm confident that the interests on both sides of this issue are driven by the desire to produce healthy dogs. When Dr. Murphy's paper is published, the knowns should become a part of everyone's breeding programs for the health of the dogs and further research should be funded to determine how and what environmental factors(unknowns) are contributing to disease and how they can be eliminated or controlled. Hopefully the end result will be two separate (different looking) breeds who are both healthy and everyone will be happy. :biggrin1: Sorry for the rambling. I don't even know if I made any sense.:blabla: I think I need my second cup of coffee.

:tea: Marsha


----------



## marbenv

Juniormint,

Thank you. You said it much more concisely than I did.


----------



## mckennasedona

I still have a question.....if it is in the breed standard for Dachshunds to have curved fronts does this mean that it is not CD in a doxie, but it is CD in a Hav? If it *is* a mild form of CD in a Doxie, then do they also have a predisposition to Ockham Syndrome? I'm curious. (I grew up with a wonderful Dachshund named Fritz, who lived for 17 wonderful years). I apologize that the question doesn't specifically address Havs.

Susan


----------



## Honey Poney's

mckennasedona said:


> I still have a question.....if it is in the breed standard for Dachshunds to have curved fronts does this mean that it is not CD in a doxie, but it is CD in a Hav? If it *is* a mild form of CD in a Doxie, then do they also have a predisposition to Ockham Syndrome? I'm curious. (I grew up with a wonderful Dachshund named Fritz, who lived for 17 wonderful years). I apologize that the question doesn't specifically address Havs.
> 
> Susan


I am quoting myself

_That's why is still say that not every dog with curved front has CD,
but every dog with CD has a curved front.
My opinion, my vets opinion.

Christine
Honey Poney's Havanese.

(P.S. This doesn't mean that I breed with dogs that have curved front, CD or no CD.)_


----------



## Melissa Miller

marbenv said:


> Hopefully the end result will be two separate (different looking) breeds who are both healthy and everyone will be happy. :biggrin1: Sorry for the rambling. Marsha


Marsha, 
You made perfect sense. I think we should all wait and see what the published report says and study it.



Julie said:


> Did I get this right.......Doc is no longer a member on this forum?She moved on to the Havana silk forum?Maybe I misunderstood........but it seems we got alot of new hav people in the past week or so......I'd like to see them hang around.


Doc is still a member but may not come back or post. She is welcome to, but I think the feeling is they don't have Havanese so they don't really need to be a part of the Havanese discussion. Plus they are busy starting their new breed. Thats my take on it.

There has been a lot of new Havanese people as someone posted this link to the big lists. So I hope they do stay also. The HSDA people of course wanting to do their own thing, as they are going away from the Havanese. We are still PRO havanese.  We wont become the Havanese forum if your dog looks like "this". We love all Havs, even those in denial.... ound:



juniormint said:


> I'm new here. I found out about this forum on one of the yahoo groups.
> 
> I read this entire thread over the past 3 days. I've read all the mean things people on the yahoo groups are saying. I want to say I like this forum better because it seems the mean people aren't here. I like that.
> 
> The quote above from Laura convinced me that what the HSDAA is doing is a natural progression of any breed. Even Laura admits people can look at these dogs and see the difference. The AKC defines a breed as: Breed A domestic race of dogs (selected and maintained by man) with a common gene pool and characterized appearance and function.
> 
> :biggrin1:


Welcome Junior Mint! This is a friendlier group, and even if things get heated, its conatined in one thread that not everyone has to read. Hopefuly anyway...

I agree that you can see a difference in the dogs, but I don't see a black and white difference. I see all the shades of gray as the different dogs have been bred together. Its not like its a row of short legged havanese next to the longer legged havanese. Its a combo of that and everything in between. Honestly, the photo of the "Havanese" posted in the gallery by Greg with the very short legs, I dont see too often in the ring. Maybe its me, or my area, but don't believe its a black and white look between these two dogs. There is obvious room to improve in our standard, but I personally don't think it requires a complete second breed of this one "look" out of the many. Im not arguing the CD issue until I have more information, but as Greg said above the main reason for separating is based on a different "look".



aradelat said:


> I see at least a dozen "types" in the ring. All sizes, muzzle shapes, fur texture, leg lengths, chest conformation, tail heights, ear size, eye shapes, etc...


Me TOO! This is what I was saying above. So don't let the new club make anyone think there Hav is not worthy or normal. I have seen a lot of those posts from some of the members. There are a TON of good breeders within HCA. One or two bad apples can not represent everyone. And the new club will eventually have bad apples also. We are going to have our Havanese and it does not mean they will have CD or the wrong look or anything else. They are great dogs, and we will have great shows and a great club. Some people just might want to be more exclusive and connected with something more rare. So be it. Thats fine.

Maybe I should take all the blondes ( humans) and start a new club to breed back to the sweedish standard. Mmmmm we would have yummy hot chocolate. Dang it, I keep forgetting Im not really blonde...that always gets in the way....

The variety of our Havs is not always bad. I would like to see the standard followed better, but I think every breed needs tweaks. We just have to work with the club we have and make it stronger.

Dang I need a life, Im in Europe and Im still over checking on Hav people. HA 

eace:


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

Melissa Miller said:


> Dang I need a life, Im in Europe and Im still over checking on Hav people. HA
> eace:


Your too funny Melissa. Hope you having a great time & taking LOTS of pictures for those of us who will probably NEVER get to go there! At least we can see it thru your talented eyes!


----------



## whitBmom

Well said Melissa!! :cheer2: eace: This is a Havanese forum and I am pro Havanese - no matter how short their muzzles, legs etc. I am all for improving the breed, and Oreo, as well as the rest of our dogs, have come into our lives for a reason. We have to keep our chin up and be confident that we made the right decision. I wish the HSDAA all the best in their endeavours to improve "their" breed, but for me I will continue to support the betterment of our beloved Havanese. What I am hoping, is that this movement will stoke the "fires" of all breeders to give them the momentum to push forward and really improve this breed in a way like never before. There are many wonderful breeders who love this breed and they need our support and encouragment to keep this breed going strong. We have to get the word out and educate ourselves and as many as we can. Lets press on!! eace:


----------



## Kathy

Greg said:


> Not at all. They'll probably look much the same as they do now. People see 2 types of dogs in the ring, only one type is leaving.


Hey Greg,
See this is what doesn't fit for me still. If HSD supporters think they have two different types, then why would you still want to show them as Havanese? If they are still Havanese, then aren't they different *styles* of the same breed that fit in the standard? This is still such a young breed in the AKC, starting a new breed is what I don't get. Breeders like you, me, and most HCA breeders, do health testing and breed to IMPROVE the breed. The HSD isn't going to be any more superior, better, nicer, etc then dogs that members of the HCA breed if we are still all breeding for the right reason, and that is to improve this awesome breed. I think the wrong message is being sent here to the buying public. Every breeders ultimate goal is to produce a dog that other's can look at and know it was breed by that particular breeder. So having different styles will happen in every breed.

Everyone here needs to understand that just because a group of people have decided to split off from HCA and try to start a new breed, doesn't mean that the Havanese will be worse or cease to exist.

I wouldn't breed a fair hip to a fair hip either. Nor would I breed a dog with bad patella's, or CD front. There are many things to consider before putting two dogs together to have puppies.


----------



## mckennasedona

Thanks Christine,

It just seems that its been insinuated that any Hav with curved legs is CD. Not that I am a proponent of curved legs. Without soaping, I think one of my girls has straight legs and one may or may not. Is it CD? Is it not CD but just a curve? I suppose only my vet can say for sure....

Susan
PS - the photos you have posted are terrific. My husband especially loves the mama and baby one which he happened to notice as he walked by last evening.


----------



## Dawna

I agree with you Kathy. Well put.


----------



## Thumper

Melissa, you are too cool! Well stated,

And in Mary's defense, I don't think she made a real dig at anyone. The HSD does claim to be more "elegant" than the plain ole' Havanese. Some breeders are and will continue to be offended by this. Can you really blame them? Especially the ones that continue to try to better the breed.

This is the land of capitalism. Pepsi claims to be better than Coke, and Coke claims to be better than Pepsi, etc. I personally prefer Barq's Diet Root Beer. :biggrin1: 

And I have NO clue what Gucci is considered. I keep looking at her and looking at the pics....LOL....But she's still a puppy, so I guess I'll just have to wait and see.

I don't think this will effect the pet owners that much. We may see posts in the future from potential Hav or HSD buyers that are confused, but that's about it.

Regards,
Kara


----------



## whitBmom

I think all these comments was really to cause us "self" doubt about our beloved pets. And if they feel they want to claim a different breed - then, by all means they should do it, but not by causing the rest of the Havanese community to doubt their "own" dogs. I say, be confident in what you have, and if other feel your is not "true" due to look, then that is their opinion. We bought Havanese from breeders that are trying to better the breed, and I for one will continue to support them any way I can. I am happy though that this forum has opened up civil discussion where the opportunity presented itself to get educated about certain issues, but I do believe that this is not what will determine the fate of our beloved havanese.


----------



## whitBmom

I completely agree with Kara. The claim that "my product" is better than "your product" has always been around, and unfortunately it hit very close to home. 

Karen, I do agree on the points you said, that if they believe their dogs to be an "entirely different breed" then, you are right, why benefit from showing their different breed, under the already established Havanese name? Just like the movement to initiate the Havanese breed, breeders stuck to improving the breed until it got recognized by the AKC. They are welcome to do the same.


----------



## juliav

Melissa Miller said:


> Doc is still a member but may not come back or post. She is welcome to, but I think the feeling is they don't have Havanese so they don't really need to be a part of the Havanese discussion. Plus they are busy starting their new breed. Thats my take on it.
> eace:


How convenient for HSD!!!! They are no longer a Havanese, so don't need to be part of the forum, or anything else that is a Havanese, as they are developing a new better breed. Oh wait, I forgot, they are Havanese when it comes to the show ring.....Well, only until they are recognized as a HSD. Hummm, makes perfect sence. 

I still don't understand why I find this so upsetting, as I am not a breeder and don't show. Maybe because it just feels so wrong...sigh.


----------



## mckennasedona

It may or may not affect pet owners. I was telling my husband about the blowup (err, discussion) and the first thing out of his mouth was, "so, did we get inferior dogs?" Now, he was clearly and totally JOKING (don't shoot us Elaine!!) because we know we have perfect dogs, but could there be a perception out there when all is said and done, that a potential buyer should stay away from a Havanese, thinking that they are less healthy and crippled from CD? I suppose, like Kara said, it's all in the marketing.

Susan


----------



## whitBmom

Julia, I think we find it upsetting that our pets are being criticised, in not so many words, as being inferior or flawed, while claiming that their dogs are "true". All the while claiming that they have a unique breed, that they are determined to show as Havanese - which they do not believe to be like their dogs. So yes, it can be very upsetting, and although this is a free country and this forum is working on the same premise, HSD members or even other breed owners can join. But I agree, it is quite convenient for those who have NEVER been members here to join, add their comments and then take leave.


----------



## whitBmom

Susan, it may or may not, but that is where WE can come in and support those around us considering buying a Havanese. This forum has been wonderful when I was looking for my Oreo, and because of this group I got the education I needed to make an informed decision. I thank Melissa for this community. I have gotten more out of here than any other "list".


----------



## Julie

What I find odd about this whole situation,besides what's been already chatted about..........When I did a search for my dogs pedigree,I found many impressive dogs:biggrin1: and they look like my dog......think about this...they LOOK LIKE my dog.If I can go back all those generations and the havanese of today still looks like the havanese from before,how is it any different?
The havanese in Diane's book.......look like all the rest I have seen.

Isn't it wrong to automatically think that a havana silk is better than a havanese?Maybe the havana silks are breeding a dog that originated from a havanese and a havanese mix.....like a maltese or shih-tzu.That would result in a silkier coat and the wrong coat for a havanese(according to pictures/history)

Then by continueing to breed those dogs,they are choosing to make a dog that doesn't fit into the standard etc.


----------



## Julie

Melissa,
Can I post a few pictures on the forum from the havanese gallery to show,or would that get me in trouble?:ear:


----------



## aradelat

Here's some more of my stupid questions for those who know a heck a lot more than I do about Havanese. Is the (Havanese, not HSD) standard still to have a shorter front than back? If so, does that mean the standard calls for CD, which is, according to some, not only bowed legs but short legs? Thanks.


----------



## whitBmom

Right Julie, and for this reason they say that their breed is different from ours. The double benefit is what gets most people. Julie, I believe if you have made an informed decision, by reviewing Quincy's pedigree, asking many questions of your breeder and you see that Quincy looks just like his ancestors - then I would not worry about it much. Let them have their say, but an opinion is just that, an opinion. It doesn't reflect anything on our dogs in anyway.

aradelat, I am not a breeder, so I cannot answer your specific questions concerning the Havanese topline, I am sure the Havanese breeders here can answer your question for you .


----------



## mary c

marbenv said:


> I just can't help it. Have to contribute my 2c worth again. I do have a science background and know a little about scientific research and published papers in peer-reviewed journals. When Dr. Murphy's paper is actually published, then we can see what findings are stastically significant. Then these factors will lead to further research, I am sure. It is important to determine WHAT environmental factors are contributors to the health problems in these dogs and hopefully that already is or will soon become someone's research. Without that information, it will be impossible to control their influence, (other than preventing injury). One must also remember that although environmental factors were a higher contributer than the genetic issue, those factors are composed of an unknown number and type of elements. However, if the genomes are a known, selective breeding can be done to control this part of the equation and lower the incidence of disease. I'm confident that the interests on both sides of this issue are driven by the desire to produce healthy dogs. When Dr. Murphy's paper is published, the knowns should become a part of everyone's breeding programs for the health of the dogs and further research should be funded to determine how and what environmental factors(unknowns) are contributing to disease and how they can be eliminated or controlled. Hopefully the end result will be two separate (different looking) breeds who are both healthy and everyone will be happy. :biggrin1: Sorry for the rambling. I don't even know if I made any sense.:blabla: I think I need my second cup of coffee.
> 
> :tea: Marsha



TA DA!!!
:whoo: 
exactly!

Mary


----------



## aradelat

Here's an intersting link about CD and Alaskan Malamutes. It seems researchers into problems with the breed sometimes use a blood test to determine dogs that carry it....http://www.minnesotamalamuteclub.com/brdprobs/chdvet.htm


----------



## whitBmom

That is the point exactly Mary. WE CANNOT decide prior to facts given. The bottom line IS the production of healthy and sound dogs. I am sure that unlike the "few" bad apples, the majority of good breeders are being conscientious about these matters and focusing on the betterment of the breed. Now, if this results in a totally different breed, as opposed to a variation within the breed, then I hope that the one breeding the totally different breed will do the right thing and compete, not under AKC as havanese, but rather at other group shows until their own breed is recognized. There is nothing wrong in standing for what one believes in, but if we do, we must ensure we do it 100% and not back-peddle.


----------



## mary c

*Havanese Rule !*

" I am sure that unlike the "few" bad apples, the majority of good breeders are being conscientious about these matters and focusing on the betterment of the breed. Now, if this results in a totally different breed, as opposed to a variation within the breed, then I hope that the one breeding the totally different breed will do the right thing and compete, not under AKC as havanese, but rather at other group shows until their own breed is recognized. "

I agree, with the additonal points,

that the "new breed" does not negate the fact that the Havanese is the original Cuban dog with all of it's history respected and intact, 
This is the part that gets people passionate and up in arms so to speak, there is no disagreement about the good of health testing, it is wanting to protect the Havanese and it's history,

The "new breed" is not the ONLY Cuban dog as the HSDAA states on their website.

The Havanese does not need to have a new definition as an "American breed" and a splinter group should not attempt to give it one,

The "new breed" will not be a Havanese, as the AKC does not recognize varieties any longer,
but will be an American made (though with multi national, including Hungarian and Russian background) new breed, 
with whatever name they prefer, though calling it the Havana Silk Dog which is a name that is in the history of the Havanese as an alternate name/description of the Havanese is not very "new" or different,

I love all of the posts sharing how perfect everyone's dogs are, 
:whoo: whatever they are called, and the loyalty to the Havanse and their welfare that is evident, 
I adore our little cuban furbabies, and think the world is a better place for having the Havanese in it. 
We have been sharing our home and lives and enjoying MHS >g< for seventeen years now and don't see an end in sight ; )

Mary


----------



## tejanoHavs

Hi everyone! I'm new over here, but not new to Havanese. I'm good friends with Melissa and Dawna :biggrin1: and although I've read the forum in the past, I've mostly just read the e-mails and have enjoyed the photos .

So, you should be wondering, who am I? That's something you should wonder about anyone who comes into a group and then offers an opinion. Everyone can have an opinion, but should you take it as gospel? Well, on the internet that would be a resounding no! I have a cartoon that goes into every one of the puppy books I send home with my new owners of two dogs sitting at a PC. One dog says to the other "on the internet, no one knows I'm a dog"....grin. And that is so true. 

Sometimes people can sound very persuasive with their words, yet they have little real life experience, hands on knowledge or qualification to back up their words. 2 years in the breed can be stretched to 5 or 8 or who knows? Breeder of champions can mean 2 champions in my last 5 litters. Concerned about health can mean only when it is not my dogs with a problem. But, people are human and none of us is here to pass judgement on another. We just all do the best we can with what we are given :thumb: 

So, back to who am I? Well, I really have been in this breed (my only breed) since January of 2000. I've own 8 Havanese (all of whom sleep in our bed, under our bed, around our bed...well, you get the picture!) and they are just like family to us here. I've owned or co-owned a total of 16 Havanese champions, have two Havanese with ROM titles (given by the HCA for those sires or dams who have produced a certain number of champions), & will receive my breeder of merit award this year (given for breeding more than 10 Havanese champions). I'm not bragging as there are many more impressive records than mine, but I do have a little time and experience under my belt (and scars to prove it in some cases...grin).

All of my Havanese are health tested before breeding with the standard tests recommended by HCA (annual CERF for eyes, BAER for hearing, OFA hip or prelim hip to rule out hip dysplasia, and OFA patella to rule out patellar luxation). I also have almost all of my dogs complete with their OFA Cardiac (done by a cardiologist instead of just a general vet), some with OFA elbows (to rule out elbow dysplasia), some with OFA thyroid and all with routine bloodwork and pre-breeding labwork so that if anything needs to be looked into we can do so before making a breeding decision. And no, I would not intentionally breed an unsound dog (which would include CD). My puppies leave here with the entire litter BAER tested (I drive a 12 hour round trip to do this), & have been seen by our vet at least once, sometimes twice before going to their new homes.

In HCA, I've served on the board as well as serving as President, national show chair, AKC Gazette columnist and on many different committees over the years. My local club is the Lone Star havanese club and I served as founding president, have been on the board for many years and was the show chair for our first regional specialty.

Hopefully that will give you some background to measure my comments against. You should ask other people who post as experts what their background is so you know how much credence to place in their words. Some will be absolutely credible like Doc whose experience in the breed is significant. Some will not.

Am I very much like most reputable Havanese breeders? YOU BET!!! I am not the exception when it comes to health testing as even the most reluctant of breeders have stepped on board over the last few years and I'm so proud of our breeders for doing that! Sure, this breed has plenty of backyard breeders, mills and those who will never care what they do with their breeding decisions. All we can do is to try to encourage those breeders who do want to do the right thing and then work to make it easier for the buying public to find those breeders!

But again, my most important credential is that Melissa and Dawna are my friends and we have one heck of a time in Manhattan for Westminster :wink: I'm happy to be here and will try to answer a few questions along the way. So far, it has been fun to come in late to the party and watch the evolution of this entire thread to see people reasoning and thinking things through for themselves to make their own decisions. You guys are one smart group and that's a great thing for those Havs you all love!

Cherie


----------



## KristinFusco

Marsha,

Nice post! I really hope the HSD split doesn't make people believe that our Havanese are not of Cuban descent, or that they are somehow less healthy. I think that is the part that is hardest to swallow. I can understand their health concerns, but I know many HAVANESE breeders who run the complete health test panel. My boy Lito passed all of his health testing, has straight legs, and is most definitely a HAVANESE! He is bigger boned(a strapping 16.5 lbs!), longer than their dogs and has a very wavy coat. When I told my husband about all of the "drama", he said that he doesn't care what Lito is, he just wants another one just like him! I guess all that we can do is keep finding good Havanese breeders who health test.
 

BTW Susan I think Lito and McKenna are related maybe?:whoo: 

~Kristin


----------



## marbenv

Welcome Cherie.


----------



## Dawna

Hi Cherie!!
eace:


----------



## Olliesmom

Yes welcome to what some of us consider to be the best forum - but then again - we are spoiled!!!!!:biggrin1:


----------



## mckennasedona

> BTW Susan I think Lito and McKenna are related maybe?


Hi Kristin,

Yes, they are. Same sire and dam, different litters. McKenna was born in 2004


----------



## tejanoHavs

*shorter front legs?*



aradelat said:


> Here's some more of my stupid questions for those who know a heck a lot more than I do about Havanese. Is the (Havanese, not HSD) standard still to have a shorter front than back? If so, does that mean the standard calls for CD, which is, according to some, not only bowed legs but short legs? Thanks.


Not stupid questions at all. If you understand this point, you will actually be ahead of some folks who show their dogs :whoo: I think you're asking if the Havanse standard calls for short front legs and longer back legs? The answer would be not exactly, but close. What the standard does call for is a "short upper arm" (that would be in the front legs) and that, in combination with proper angulation gives a slight rise to the topline which rises slightly from withers (shoulders) to rear and the characteristic Havanese gait with a flash of pad. You can read the entire AKC standard here http://www.akc.org/breeds/havanese/ or can access some of the information provided to judges regarding our standard here http://www.havanese.org/Education/hcajudgesselftestintro.htm and here http://www.havanese.org/documents/BreedTypeBrochureV5.pdf.

One thing you'll learn about me is that I like to educate  and I try to give others the info they need to verify what is being said. If it is just my own personal opinion, I will say that two (usually followed by a "for what it is worth").

Cherie


----------



## RedHeadedGator

Glad to have you here with us, Cherie 
:welcome: 
It is an awesome forum!


----------



## Melissa Miller

tejanoHavs said:


> I've owned or co-owned a total of 16 Havanese champions, have two Havanese with ROM titles (given by the HCA for those sires or dams who have produced a certain number of champions), & will receive my breeder of merit award this year (given for breeding more than 10 Havanese champions). I'm not bragging as there are many more impressive records than mine, but I do have a little time and experience under my belt (and scars to prove it in some cases...grin).
> Cherie


Ill brag for you, Miss Goldie is one of the Champions.  :first:
She is now a princess. :cheer2:

Glad your over here Cherie. Ya'll can bug her now, she knows her stuff. 
:whoo:

Au Revoir from France! 
(We are chilling, waiting to have happy hour and caviar.     ) 
A bit windy so we have been on the boat a lot today. Tomorrow its shop shop shop shop shop drink eat shop shop.


----------



## Dawna

Forgot to to say, that's good advice Cherie!
Always ask for and check credentials. LOL:suspicious:


----------



## Doggie Nut

Ooh la la....my fav things to do! Heavy on the SHOP!!!:jaw: :biggrin1:


----------



## tejanoHavs

*Spoiled? Who???*



Melissa Miller said:


> Ill brag for you, Miss Goldie is one of the Champions.  :first:
> She is now a princess. :cheer2:
> 
> Glad your over here Cherie. Ya'll can bug her now, she knows her stuff.
> :whoo:
> 
> Thanks Melissa...it is a great environment over here! And thanks to all of you for the welcome. I don't pretend to know everything about our wonderful Havanese, but have done one of just about everything, made one of almost every kind of mistake and have had my share of ups and downs in doing so. Melissa's Goldie (aka the Princess and rightly so) was sired by my stud dog, Tito. That's how we first came to know each other.
> 
> And yes, Melissa and Goldie are both a little spoiled :biggrin1: So are you guys with this great list she set up. Enjoy being able to listen and learn from each other in such a pleasant atmosphere!
> 
> I'm offline a bit during the summer at times as we have 3 boys over here and life is busy, busy, busy. Diving lessons, fencing lessons, golf lessons, bass lessons, camps of all sorts....whew. But I will try to check in at least a couple of times each day when I sit down with my Diet Coke for some mom time
> 
> Wonder if it is as hot and humid off the coast of Monaco right now as it is here in Texas?


----------



## Dawna

Speaking of that, I will be offline for rest of today because we just got finished with golf camp and are heading up to the big city <g> to 8 and under machine pitch state finals. Oh yeah, kids and havs will keep you hopping.


----------



## Greg

Kathy said:


> Hey Greg,
> See this is what doesn't fit for me still. If HSD supporters think they have two different types, then why would you still want to show them as Havanese? If they are still Havanese, then aren't they different *styles* of the same breed that fit in the standard? This is still such a young breed in the AKC, starting a new breed is what I don't get. Breeders like you, me, and most HCA breeders, do health testing and breed to IMPROVE the breed. The HSD isn't going to be any more superior, better, nicer, etc then dogs that members of the HCA breed if we are still all breeding for the right reason, and that is to improve this awesome breed. I think the wrong message is being sent here to the buying public. Every breeders ultimate goal is to produce a dog that other's can look at and know it was breed by that particular breeder. So having different styles will happen in every breed.
> 
> Everyone here needs to understand that just because a group of people have decided to split off from HCA and try to start a new breed, doesn't mean that the Havanese will be worse or cease to exist.
> 
> I wouldn't breed a fair hip to a fair hip either. Nor would I breed a dog with bad patella's, or CD front. There are many things to consider before putting two dogs together to have puppies.


Kathy,

Hey Girl! I don't know any HSDAA members who plan on showing in the Havanese ring at the moment. I know a group of us are going to be showing in the UKC as well as rare breeds.

I think there are great Havanese breeders (like you) and I don't think the breed will suffer at all. I just think it will continue to move in a direction we feel isn't the correct one. But it can be correct for you and that's not a bad thing.


----------



## juliav

Hi Cherie and welcome to the forum :wave:


----------



## Leeann

O.K. I’m really starting to get scared with all these new breeder joining us. Does this mean we are going to have to look at more puppy pictures?? And what is this going to do to our MHS???


----------



## Dawna

Be strong Leeann. lol


----------



## tejanoHavs

*heee, heee....*



lbkar said:


> O.K. I'm really starting to get scared with all these new breeder joining us. Does this mean we are going to have to look at more puppy pictures?? And what is this going to do to our MHS???


LOLOL....OK, I promise not to post puppy photos or funny stories (at least when I can help myself  ). Don't want to feed any MHS addictions or be an enabler :biggrin1:


----------



## Honey Poney's

*correct ?*

I am so sorry, but I don't think this is a nice thing to say, or to explain your things

_I think there are great Havanese breeders (like you) and I don't think the breed will suffer at all. *I just think it will continue to move in a direction we feel isn't the correct one*. But it can be correct for you and that's not a bad thing._

You can say you have a different opinion, different idea, ......whatever you want but not "*isn't the correct one*"

This gives the impression that everything before was wrong.


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

Cherie, you BETTER post puppy pictures if you hav them!! PLEASE...........:biggrin1:


----------



## whitBmom

Welcome to this forum Cherie - I look forward to seeing puppy pics  :cheer2:


----------



## Thumper

I'm confused again! The HSD Constitution states that they will participate in events:

*The Havana Silk Dog Association of America.

SECTION 2: The objects of the Club shall be:

To promote the public's knowledge of dogs in general and Havana Silk Dogs in particular;

To do all possible to promote, preserve, and protect the rights and obligations of responsible ownership of dogs in general and Havana Silk Dogs in particular;

To produce, publish, and distribute to the general public educational materials about the proper care, treatment, breeding, health, development, and training of Havana Silk Dogs;

To establish a Registry of only those health-screened and sound dogs displaying original Cuban breed type in order to promote and facilitate the careful restoration and preservation of Cuba's only native breed;

To encourage rigid selection away from the chondrodysplastic phenotype which has been shown to be associated with serious and life-threatening health problems in the breed;

To acknowledge and advance the role of a parent club in providing education, health research, and support of rescue and reduction of overpopulation for the benefit of the general public, purebred dogs, and Havana Silk Dogs in particular;

To acknowledge Cuba as the country of origin of the Havana Silk Dog; 
To otherwise preserve and protect the Havana Silk dog and do all things possible to bring its natural qualities to perfection;

To conduct activities including companion dog events, specialty shows, performance events, herding trials, and other such activities as may be held under the rules of the American Kennel Club;

To urge members and breeders to accept the Havana Silk Dog standard as the only standard of excellence by which the Havana Silk Dog should be judged.

To urge the American Kennel Club to accept the Havana Silk Dog (registered in its country of origin as the Bichon Habanero) as a breed separate and distinct in both form and character from the Havanese, a purely American breed developed in part from the original dog of Havana.

To encourage the establishment and recognition of local clubs to educate the public about responsible ownership of dogs in general, Havana Silk Dogs in particular, and to encourage local clubs to provide both fun and educational opportunities for owners and prospective owners of Havana Silk Dogs in particular, as an avenue to developing their long-term involvement in the Sport of Dogs. .*

*****scratches head********


----------



## KristinFusco

I just had time to catch up on some of the posting over the last few days, and there was some published info from Dr Murphy that someone very kindly provided .

The part I found interesting was "We have identified 4 traits that co-segregate: heart murmurs, liver shunts, cataracts, and chondrodysplasia (CD)." In genetics, co-segregation is "The transmission of two or more linked genes on a chromosome to the same daughter cell leading to the inheritance by the offspring of these genes together". So if we just concentrate on the relationship between genetics and CD (temporarily ignoring the "environmental factor" portion of CD) then it seems that the Dr. is stating that the genetic inheritance of CD is linked to the genetic inheritance of these other 3 health conditions in Havanese. This may not be the case in other breeds that have CD (I am not even sure if there is any research on it), but if inherited CD in Havanese tends to yield the inheritance of these other diseases as well, then CD should be a cause for great concern when it is found to have a genetic basis.


----------



## whitBmom

Well Kara, if it in writing it clearly states their intentions of demoting the Havanese as simple by-product of american breeding and not "true" to the actual origin. It is somewhat of a bold statement to make. Rather they should focus on breeding and refining their breed, as intended, but not try to sway the AKC into acknowledging that the HSD is the only cuban breed. Pretty soon, the claim will be that actual Cuban dogs do not fall into this "true" category, when in fact they come from American descent. One can't help but take offense when it is clearly worded that HSD are the only "true" Cuban dog, whereas the Havanese is simply a fictitious breed that has no descent whatsoever from Cuba.


I will also scratch my head to that.


----------



## juniormint

Thumperlove said:


> I'm confused again! The HSD Constitution states that they will participate in events:
> 
> *The Havana Silk Dog Association of America.
> 
> SECTION 2: The objects of the Club shall be:
> 
> To promote the public's knowledge of dogs in general and Havana Silk Dogs in particular;
> 
> To do all possible to promote, preserve, and protect the rights and obligations of responsible ownership of dogs in general and Havana Silk Dogs in particular;
> 
> To produce, publish, and distribute to the general public educational materials about the proper care, treatment, breeding, health, development, and training of Havana Silk Dogs;
> 
> To establish a Registry of only those health-screened and sound dogs displaying original Cuban breed type in order to promote and facilitate the careful restoration and preservation of Cuba's only native breed;
> 
> To encourage rigid selection away from the chondrodysplastic phenotype which has been shown to be associated with serious and life-threatening health problems in the breed;
> 
> To acknowledge and advance the role of a parent club in providing education, health research, and support of rescue and reduction of overpopulation for the benefit of the general public, purebred dogs, and Havana Silk Dogs in particular;
> 
> To acknowledge Cuba as the country of origin of the Havana Silk Dog;
> To otherwise preserve and protect the Havana Silk dog and do all things possible to bring its natural qualities to perfection;
> 
> To conduct activities including companion dog events, specialty shows, performance events, herding trials, and other such activities as may be held under the rules of the American Kennel Club;
> 
> To urge members and breeders to accept the Havana Silk Dog standard as the only standard of excellence by which the Havana Silk Dog should be judged.
> 
> To urge the American Kennel Club to accept the Havana Silk Dog (registered in its country of origin as the Bichon Habanero) as a breed separate and distinct in both form and character from the Havanese, a purely American breed developed in part from the original dog of Havana.
> 
> To encourage the establishment and recognition of local clubs to educate the public about responsible ownership of dogs in general, Havana Silk Dogs in particular, and to encourage local clubs to provide both fun and educational opportunities for owners and prospective owners of Havana Silk Dogs in particular, as an avenue to developing their long-term involvement in the Sport of Dogs. .*
> 
> *****scratches head********


I don't think there is much to be confused about. Each breed club has a consitution that pretty much says the same thing. If you'll notice, it doesn't say Havanese in there.

Frankly I think many of us are just borrowing trouble worrying about what the HSDAA is doing. Who really cares? Let's focus on our dogs and forget the rest. Someone posted a yahoo group for anyone with questions, I guess we can go there if we have questions.


----------



## whitBmom

I do agree that we should really NOT care what they choose to do with their own breed, as long as they don't go imposing on already established breed and try to impose their standards. I guess since that did not happen then they are feeling the need to let out a resounding cry stating that Havanese are not true Cuban dogs. Well, I feel that is their opinion and in a free country they can have it, but they have no right to impose their opinions on that.

As for the group, I did join for further information, but at this point in time, it seems to me they are simply venting as to how nice it is to be free and giving themselves pats on the back and making comments about our havanese - ie. referring to them as "fluffballs", or that they have the more "elegant" breed, or that they will make t's that state "We have legs". I don't find that informative - and for this reason I left. How can any havanese owner not take offense? Did they, as part of the HSDAA now, state that it hurt them to hear havanese breeders say mean things about their dogs?!! I will continue to scratch my head.


----------



## juniormint

whitBmom said:


> As for the group, I did join for further information, but at this point in time, it seems to me they are simply venting as to how nice it is to be free and giving themselves pats on the back and making comments about our havanese - ie. referring to them as "fluffballs", or that they have the more "elegant" breed, or that they will make t's that state "We have legs". I don't find that informative - and for this reason I left. How can any havanese owner not take offense? Did they, as part of the HSDAA now, state that it hurt them to hear havanese breeders say mean things about their dogs?!! I will continue to scratch my head.


I'm there too. And it's their list, so of course they are going to say the same things about THEIR dogs that we say about OUR dogs. I didn't notice you asking any questions. I'm thinking about it but I'm afraid someone will come back to one of the Havanese lists and post that I'm asking questions. I don't want to be subjected to all the anger that goes on in the other yahoo lists.


----------



## whitBmom

No I did not feel impelled to ask, as I began to notice the direction that the were heading in. I had many questions, but I felt discouraged to even ask, as I noticed the belittlement that was happening there. And you know what? That was my choice. The beauty of that is that you are free to choose if you want to be there or not. No one can tell you otherwise. And you know what? Melissa has established a forum that is really wonderful and that is free of all the politics and bad mouthing that some lists, have unfortunately experienced.


----------



## tejanoHavs

whitBmom said:


> Welcome to this forum Cherie - I look forward to seeing puppy pics  :cheer2:


LOL....OK, you won't have to twist my arm too hard to ever post puppy photos. I'll try to put a disclaimer up front so no hard core MHS sufferers fall off the wagon and have to go into rehab :biggrin1:


----------



## whitBmom

LOL... I look forward to them


----------



## Leeann

MHS Rehab, Cherie what a wonderful idea - anyone whom needs rehab from looking at puppy pictures gets to go to the breeders house everyday till the pups go to there forever home and get there fill of puppy breath.

Dont forget videos also, they are so much fun.


----------



## aradelat

*thanks..*



tejanoHavs said:


> Not stupid questions at all. If you understand this point, you will actually be ahead of some folks who show their dogs :whoo: I think you're asking if the Havanse standard calls for short front legs and longer back legs? The answer would be not exactly, but close. What the standard does call for is a "short upper arm" (that would be in the front legs) and that, in combination with proper angulation gives a slight rise to the topline which rises slightly from withers (shoulders) to rear and the characteristic Havanese gait with a flash of pad. You can read the entire AKC standard here http://www.akc.org/breeds/havanese/ or can access some of the information provided to judges regarding our standard here http://www.havanese.org/Education/hcajudgesselftestintro.htm and here http://www.havanese.org/documents/BreedTypeBrochureV5.pdf.
> 
> One thing you'll learn about me is that I like to educate  and I try to give others the info they need to verify what is being said. If it is just my own personal opinion, I will say that two (usually followed by a "for what it is worth").
> 
> Cherie


I guess this means short legs -- but not too short -- and good angulation. My problem is determining between short, and too short. And I understand it, the HSD folk want longer legs on their dogs. WOuld this affect topline?


----------



## marbenv

I agree, Kristin.

Marsha


----------



## ama0722

Kristin,
I agree too and it will be interesting to read the study. Maybe some of you can explain it more to us. I was just kind of suprised to see the findings that more CD is caused environmentally, because from the HSD website and what we talked about, I thought it was mainly breeders who didn't care, puppy mills, and an occasion straight front leg dog just having it in it's background. That is where I was like wow most of these dog's photos that we are seeing with bad legs can happen from the environment. Are there already studies that tell breeders and pet owners what to do to prevent this?


----------



## marbenv

What was the yahoo list for the HSDAA? I want to check it out.

Marsha


----------



## juniormint

ama0722 said:


> I was just kind of suprised to see the findings that *more* CD is caused environmentally, QUOTE]
> 
> "This simply means that the environment, or external factors (e.g., diet, etc.), also play a role in the development of the disease"
> 
> There is nothing that was posted that says MORE CD is caused environmentally. It says that the environment OR external factors (diet) ALSO play a role in the development of the disease.
> 
> Cherie, I'm not asking if you agree, but do you think this might also possibly mean that there MIGHT be some truth to the "cholestero" thing? That would account for the _external _factors


----------



## Melissa Miller

marbenv said:


> What was the yahoo list for the HSDAA? I want to check it out.
> 
> Marsha


Marsha, 
Here is the post where Steve provided that info. 

http://www.havaneseforum.com/showpost.php?p=20380&postcount=616


----------



## marbenv

Thanks Melissa. I couldn't find it. Hope you're having a great time. I can't believe you're on here and answering questions to boot! Wonderful forum. Thanks for starting it.

Marsha


----------



## Julie

:welcome: Cherie :welcome:


----------



## Thumper

Will the HCA just gracefully give up the "Cuban History" of the Havanese to the HSD? 

How can that be done from a legal standpoint?

Just curious.

Kara


----------



## Melissa Miller

Thanks Marsha! I am on a smaller boat and its about midnight here, so Im just passing time. Still the night owl....in any country. 

And Cherie DOES have puppy pics....and they are cute... I have a fav too.... No worries for you MHS victims, I think her waiting list is probably into 2012. :violin:

:focus:


----------



## tehashavanese

juniormint said:


> pfabulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> The one consistent thing I heard the entire time is that I shouldn't be showing my Havana Silk Dog in the ring with the Havanese. That was quite hurtful. Those of us with the Silkier Havanese will eventually be kept out of the show ring because of this divide. QUOTE]
> 
> "The facts are this. The group that has broken off was key in changing the standard from the original 1963 FCI standard to what it is today. But, they now say that they weren't allowed to make the changes that they wanted to the standard. Unfortunately, the meeting minutes will show that this is not true."
> 
> So my questions are these. How many Standards have there been? Who was instrumental in their changes and why? Did Doc and Diane write the Standards going away from the 1963 FCI and then write Standards to come back to the 1963 FCI? From all that has been written it seems Laura's statement is in err. Could someone who was around way back then please comment?:biggrin1:
> 
> 
> 
> First, remember: everything below is the opinion of one person *s*
> 
> It is likely, though not certain, that the 1963 Standard is just a re-publication of a 1935 FCI Standard that there are references to, but no can seem to locate. Dorothy Gooddale used the 1963 Standard (or a translation from the French that had some translation inaccuracies) and the dogs she could see to write the first HCA Standard. There are Standards dated 1979, 1982, 1986, 1987, 1995, and 2001. These are dates on documents I have seen; they may or may not reflect the dates of revision, and this is not a complete list. At least one of those was approved at a meeting that had 3 people present. There are also at least 2 Cuban Standards adopted since 1992, during which process they had access to both the early FCI Standard and the then existing HCA Standard.
> 
> The most significant changes from the 63 Standard were made long before Diane or Doc had Havanese. I'm not sure how many are still around in HCA that were there in the 80's, but it can't be very many.
> 
> Doc and Diane did not write the Standard adopted by HCA in 2001 and approved by the American Kennel Club. Yes, they served on the Standard Committee, but everyone in the HCA at that time had the opportunity to contribute, comment and vote. The process of revising a standard for an AKC breed requires many steps, including but not necessarily limited to, publication to the members of the Parent club, comment by the members, consultation with AKC staff, a vote by mail by the entire membership, and approval by the AKC Board of Directors. The Standard adopted was one that had sufficient support to recieve the required 2/3 vote.
> 
> Hope this helps
> 
> Steve Harris
Click to expand...


----------



## tehashavanese

whitBmom said:


> I completely agree with Kara. The claim that "my product" is better than "your product" has always been around, and unfortunately it hit very close to home.
> 
> Karen, I do agree on the points you said, that if they believe their dogs to be an "entirely different breed" then, you are right, why benefit from showing their different breed, under the already established Havanese name? Just like the movement to initiate the Havanese breed, breeders stuck to improving the breed until it got recognized by the AKC. They are welcome to do the same.


All I can say is that for me, its not about "my HSD" is better than "your Havanese." It is that my HSD is DIFFERENT. I like one breed type; someone else likes another breed type. That doesn't mean either is "better"; except of course in the eyes of the beholder *grin*

One poster thought we are saying the HSD is "more elegant". Well, yes, but elegant here is a term often used by breeders and refers to bone struture, muscluature, relationship of one part to another. In some breeds, bitches are more "elegant" than dogs; that certainly doesn't make them better.

I do hope to see the Havana Silk Dog become a separate and unique breed. In the meantime, the only authority that controls what breed a dog is, for purposes of AKC shows, is the AKC.

There are people that have dual-registered their Havanese for years, with AKC and with UKC (United Kennel Club). These two clubs judge Havanese by different Standards, yet a Havanese that is show in a UKC show, under the UKC approved Standard, is still a Havanese at an AKC show.

Steve Harris


----------



## tehashavanese

aradelat said:


> Here's some more of my stupid questions for those who know a heck a lot more than I do about Havanese. Is the (Havanese, not HSD) standard still to have a shorter front than back? If so, does that mean the standard calls for CD, which is, according to some, not only bowed legs but short legs? Thanks.


The reason for the Havanese topline being straight but not level, rising slightly from withers to rump, is that the dog has balanced front and rear angles combined with a short upper arm.

A correct Havanese has legs that are straight when viewed from any angle, but beause of the short upper arm, the front is lower than the rear.

This short upper arm with balanced angles is not "normal" canine anatomy.

To try to see what I mean, put your thumb on the front point of the shoulder blade spread your fingers and touch the highest poing to the shoulder blade. Then swing your fingers down, pivoting on the thumb, and there will be a space between your fingers and the dogs elbow.

hope this helps

Steve Harris


----------



## amorhavanese

*Havanese or HSD*



My only complaint with all this  is it seems that people who believe they have a different breed being HSD also seem to think there dogs are healthier.
I have NO problem with them going there way and having a new name so long as they stop condeming Havanese as the unhealthy breed the designer dog .
There are health problems in dogs period all breeds, we just have to work hard not to breed dogs with problems no matter what.
Remember those who think they have Havana Silk Dogs are still registering them as Havanese and still showing them as Havanese, IF they do think they are a different breed then why show, breed, or register these dogs until they have there own registry?
I have never had a dog with CD I do NOT soap my dogs but I do have them x-ray'd and looked at by a specialist I think a much more accurate way to determine such a problem.
The OFA needs to adapt a test for this .

Mary
Amor Havanese


----------



## Julie

Really,the havana silks share the same history as the havanese....both came from Dorothy's original dogs.I know someone asked probably back 20 pages ago if pictures exist of these original dogs.......what was the answer?If someone answered,my apologys,but I never found it.:frusty:


----------



## amorhavanese

*Havanese or HSD*


Well Julie, unless I am mistaken and maybe I am thats NOT true . The HSD said they came from cuba to Russia to hungry to here. The Havanese they say is the dog that was created by the Arizona Conundrum. Those dogs were Dorothy Goodalls dogs.
I plan on doing some reserch myself on the dogs from Arizona and how they got there and will try to get some pictures.
Mary
Amor Havanese


----------



## Julie

That would be great Mary...
It was my understanding from Greg earlierin this thread, who is breeding HS, that HIS dogs had Rags Girl in their history too.If that is the case,his dogs would have the same AZ.phenotype as everyone elses.I do not breed dogs,nor show dogs.....I just have one:becky:


----------



## amorhavanese

*Havanese or HSD*



Being owned by a Havanese is the best , all my dogs are my pets first, I do breed and show and sometimes wonder why because of all the issues thats seem to come with the territory.
No one knows where this will all lead us but I for one want to know so am willing to put in some time and effort to find some answers.
Mary
Amor Havanese


----------



## Kathy

tehashavanese said:


> There are people that have dual-registered their Havanese for years, with AKC and with UKC (United Kennel Club). These two clubs judge Havanese by different Standards, yet a Havanese that is show in a UKC show, under the UKC approved Standard, is still a Havanese at an AKC show.
> 
> Steve Harris


Exactly Steve, They are still a HAVANESE, not another breed all together. That is the difference here.


----------



## Kathy

Julie said:


> Really,the havana silks share the same history as the havanese....both came from Dorothy's original dogs.:


Exactly, and ONLY Dorothy knows which is what if any difference, certainly not Diane or anyone else since they weren't there. Dorothy herself said recently, that some of the dogs came from TX, NOT AZ, so who decided these dogs came from AZ?

Wouldn't it be nice if proof was available other then in a book that is being written by Diane Klumb and sold for profit?


----------



## Kathy

Doc and Diane did not write the Standard adopted by HCA in 2001 and approved by the American Kennel Club.

Steve, that isn't true either. Look at the records and ask other members.


----------



## Kathy

Will the HCA just gracefully give up the "Cuban History" of the Havanese to the HSD?

NO WAY Kara. The Havanese is the ONLY cuban dog, period. The HSD's all came from the same lines and remember, they are still calling them Havanese.


----------



## tehashavanese

Kathy said:


> Exactly, and ONLY Dorothy knows which is what if any difference, certainly not Diane or anyone else since they weren't there. Dorothy herself said recently, that some of the dogs came from TX, NOT AZ, so who decided these dogs came from AZ?
> 
> Wouldn't it be nice if proof was available other then in a book that is being written by Diane Klumb and sold for profit?


Just for the record: the entire "profit" from sales of Diane's book has been donated to fund research done at TAMU by Dr Keith Murphy and his associates.

Also for the record, the dogs referred to as the "Arizona Kindred" all came from a woman who bred under the name of Sun Haven. The dogs "from Texas" are referred to as the "Costa Rican Kindred" because those dogs came from a breeder who relocated to Texas from Costa Rica

In a recent interview, Ms Gooddale commented on how different the two types of dogs looked.

Steve


----------



## irnfit

Kathy, I also read on a website that the other dogs were from TX and not AZ. I'm glad you said it, I thought I was going nuts. :crazy: I haven't been reading this thread for a few days, because it driving me mad. I don't show/breed, so I don't know why it matters so much. I would just like to see the HCA step up and address this. Maybe they will sometime soon. 

I just know that I was very disturbed by the HSDAA website. From the first sentence, it degrades the Havanese. The Havanese was also called the Havana Silk Dog. Did they pick that name purposely to confuse prospective buyers? They could have at least picked a totally different name.

As for showing Havs in AKC and UKC, they are still Havanese and can be shown as long as they meet the standard. The HSDAA is claiming they have a totally different breed. Should the AKC ban them from showing until their breed is recognized? That won't happen, because they are legally registered as Havanese. I have read in several posts that Doc and Diane were instrumental in writing the standard, and I think that was on the yahoo forum, as well as some other literature. Which is correct?

I'm just asking. I'm not badmouthing anyone, because I don't know any of you. I am also grateful that some of the HSDAA people have stuck around to try and answer questions. It's just that the more we talk about it, the more questions come up and sometimes things don't jive. 

I'm very happy we have Mary, Cherie and Kathy joining us. We need another point of view on this.


----------



## irnfit

Steve, where did the Costa Rican and Arizona dogs originate from? Were they originally from Cuba?


----------



## juniormint

Supposedly Senor Barba's dogs came with him from Costa Rica via Cuba. The AZ dogs were purchased sight unseen out of a magazine from what Dorothy said in her interview recently. She also said both groups looked different. When I read the article I saw enough similarities between what Diane says and what Dorothy said to cause me to be open minded about it.


----------



## irnfit

Where is the interview with Dorothy Goodale?


----------



## juniormint

irnfit said:


> As for showing Havs in AKC and UKC, they are still Havanese and can be shown as long as they meet the standard. The HSDAA is claiming they have a totally different breed. Should the AKC ban them from showing until their breed is recognized? That won't happen, because they are legally registered as Havanese. I have read in several posts that Doc and Diane were instrumental in writing the standard, and I think that was on the yahoo forum, as well as some other literature. Which is correct?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I still find it hard to believe it when everyone puts the current standard at the feet of 2 people. Even Laura didn't know there were other standards between 1963 and the present. My understanding is there is a Standard Committee that brought their suggestion to the membership for approval. Was that committee ONLY made up of Doc and Diane?


----------



## irnfit

Sorry you misunderstood. Yes, there was a Standard committee. It was stated that Doc and Diane were on the committee. Did they contribute their ideas to the writing of the standard or not?


----------



## juniormint

amorhavanese said:


> Well Julie, unless I am mistaken and maybe I am thats NOT true . The HSD said they came from cuba to Russia to hungry to here. The Havanese they say is the dog that was created by the Arizona Conundrum. Those dogs were Dorothy Goodalls dogs.
> I plan on doing some reserch myself on the dogs from Arizona and how they got there and will try to get some pictures.
> Mary
> Amor Havanese


Mary the HSDAA doesn't say they come from Cuba to Russia to Hungary. They say there are 4 gene pools. That is totally different.

I love my crooked legged havanese, but let's get some sanity back here.


----------



## ama0722

ama0722 said:


> I was just kind of suprised to see the findings that more CD is caused environmentally, QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "This simply means that the environment, or external factors (e.g., diet, etc.), also play a role in the development of the disease"
> 
> There is nothing that was posted that says MORE CD is caused environmentally. It says that the environment OR external factors (diet) ALSO play a role in the development of the disease.
> 
> 
> 
> Junior mint, are you saying that genetically they have to have CD and then external factors develop the disease? Because from Dr. Murphy's quote, I am not quite getting that as what Dr. Murphy was saying
> 
> 
> 
> Our estimates of heritability also changed, from 0.74 to 0.36. This simply means that the environment, or external factors (e.g., diet, etc.), also play a role in the development of the disease - or in other words - this disease is not have a completely genetic basis but that the genetic contribution to it is considerable.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## juniormint

ama0722 said:


> ama0722 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was just kind of suprised to see the findings that more CD is caused environmentally, QUOTE]
> 
> Junior mint, are you saying that genetically they have to have CD and then external factors develop the disease? Because from Dr. Murphy's quote, I am not quite getting that as what Dr. Murphy was saying
> 
> 
> 
> No I was commenting on someone who said it was MOSTLY the environment that caused CD. Heck it could be lots of things. But Kristen's post #717 is the best way to say it. Heck she's a genetisist (sp?)
Click to expand...


----------



## juniormint

irnfit said:


> Sorry you misunderstood. Yes, there was a Standard committee. It was stated that Doc and Diane were on the committee. Did they contribute their ideas to the writing of the standard or not?


I'm sure they did. As did the OTHER members of the committee. Who were the OTHER members. Maybe we should blame them instead? How can you pick only two people out? That's just crazy.

We're like a bunch of sheeple. One person says something and then we all rush to judgement.


----------



## ama0722

Juniormint, you were quoting me. I thought Dr. Murphy is saying in his studies that is more likely caused by other environmental factors than genetics though? Or am I completely reading that wrong. I reread Kristin's post and I don't think she was saying it was more caused by genetics either?


----------



## irnfit

I'm just asking, because I have read several posts saying they were on the committee, and then it popped up that they were not on the committee. I know they were not the only two people involved, but were they or weren't they? It's just a question, not a firing squad. :yield:


----------



## whitBmom

"We're like a bunch of sheeple. One person says something and then we all rush to judgement."

Yes, and unfortunately it happens on BOTH sides of the issue - let's NOT forget that.


----------



## tehashavanese

irnfit said:


> Where is the interview with Dorothy Goodale?


It was published in a magazine called _Our Havanese_

Steve


----------



## tehashavanese

ama0722 said:


> Juniormint, you were quoting me. I thought Dr. Murphy is saying in his studies that is more likely caused by other environmental factors than genetics though? Or am I completely reading that wrong. I reread Kristin's post and I don't think she was saying it was more caused by genetics either?


Here is what Keith Murphy wrote 


> Our estimates of heritability also changed, from 0.74 to 0.36. This simply means that the environment, or external factors (e.g., diet, etc.), also play a role in the development of the disease - or in other words - this disease is not have a completely genetic basis but that the genetic contribution to it is considerable.


I am not a biologist or a geneticist, so I asked someone who is. I was told that .36 represents a high degreee of heritability (genetic), and that environmental factors play a role in the _development_ (expression) of the disease.

Steve


----------



## tehashavanese

irnfit said:


> I'm just asking, because I have read several posts saying they were on the committee, and then it popped up that they were not on the committee. I know they were not the only two people involved, but were they or weren't they? It's just a question, not a firing squad. :yield:


Yes they were. There is a VERY brief discription of the process for revising a Standard under AKC procedures in post #736. Its a process that usually takes a minimum of 2 years, and often much longer.

Steve


----------



## ama0722

okay one more question, how does the HSD know how the havanese breed was in 1860?

Maybe our resident scientist can jump in and help us understand the CD issue and what that means too!


----------



## marbenv

Thank you, Steve, for explaining the heritability and the expression of the disease due to environmental factors.

Marsha


----------



## mary c

someone asked for pictures of the original dogs, here is a link to a page from the Delaware Valley Havanese Club website with some of the foundation dogs
shown.

http://ahavapicaro.homestead.com/HavFounders/foundershavs01.html


----------



## marjrc

My brain is fried from all this reading! I can't even digest half of the posts on genetics. lol 

Helen, I just want to say that everything you have posted in the last, oh dozen pages or so, is very thoughtful and I agree with you. "Fluffballs" indeed! Hmmmmmpppppfffff! 

I don't like how it feels when I read others state that our Havs are not 'true Havs from Cuba' . I did a lot of research into what breed would best suit our family and the Havanese (silky haired or not) was number one on my list. I am sure as I can be that Ricky will be healthy and strong for most of his life, all of it most likely. I am all for making darn sure health tests are done and the origins of parents, g'parents, etc... well documented and shared. 

As some of you know, I'm not at all sure what Sammy's origins are, in spite of his Hungarian breeder insisting he is "purebred". That matters little to me since there is no possibility he will be breeding and he remains our beloved, quirky SammyBammy. 

I think it's hard enough as it is to explain to people what a Havanese is, now there is a group branching off and questioning the origin of almost all of our pets! :suspicious: 

Melissa, you have an amazing forum here and as you can see, I'm an avid poster and reader.  Our pets are Havanese and will always be Havanese, silky haired or not, tall, small, black and white or chocolates.


----------



## marjrc

mary c said:


> someone asked for pictures of the original dogs, here is a link to a page from the Delaware Valley Havanese Club website with some of the foundation dogs
> shown.
> 
> http://ahavapicaro.homestead.com/HavFounders/foundershavs01.html


Really nice that someone put together this site with so many pictures. Too bad they aren't very clear, but the Havs on there look just as varied as Havs of today. Some are "fluffballs", some are trim and slim, others are heavy...


----------



## havanesebyha

I was thinking if the HSD wants to be their own breed away from the Havanese then why don't you become like the Coton de Tulear breed and start their own shows, point system, championships? Maybe it is not the same being able to compete against all breeds of dogs, but then the Cotons seem to be happy with their arrangement. Does anyone know how close the Cotons are from being a recognized breed in the AKC? 

Libby


----------



## mary c

KristinFusco said:


> I just had time to catch up on some of the posting over the last few days, and there was some published info from Dr Murphy that someone very kindly provided .
> 
> The part I found interesting was "We have identified 4 traits that co-segregate: heart murmurs, liver shunts, cataracts, and chondrodysplasia (CD)." In genetics, co-segregation is "The transmission of two or more linked genes on a chromosome to the same daughter cell leading to the inheritance by the offspring of these genes together". So if we just concentrate on the relationship between genetics and CD (temporarily ignoring the "environmental factor" portion of CD) then it seems that the Dr. is stating that the genetic inheritance of CD is linked to the genetic inheritance of these other 3 health conditions in Havanese. This may not be the case in other breeds that have CD (I am not even sure if there is any research on it), but if inherited CD in Havanese tends to yield the inheritance of these other diseases as well, then CD should be a cause for great concern when it is found to have a genetic basis.


heart murmurs, liver shunts, cataracts and CD, in their severe manifestations are devastating health issues in any breed, 
whether or not they co-segregate - any genetic link if/when found for one or all would be cause for great celebration by all breeders.

---

if CD does co-segreate with the other diseases certainly it is cause for concern... 
no one has argued this statement on either side of this issue

"if inherited CD in Havanese tends to yield the inheritance of these other diseases as well, then CD should be a cause for great concern when it is found to have a genetic basis."

this statement would not be argued by either side, the need to determine if it is inherited and if it has a genetic basis is paramount and primary, so the research continues.

what people do disagree with is the statement that Havanese breeders are breeding CD dogs.

Dr. Murphy's report did not state that all bowed legs are CD, did not state that all bowed legs have a genetic component,
did not state that all CD is genetic with environmental influences contributing to the expression of the genetic disease.

it said: 
"This simply means that the environment, or external factors (e.g., diet, etc.), also play a role in the development of the disease - or in other words - this disease is not have a completely genetic basis but that the genetic contribution to it is considerable"

the contribution referred to is to the DISEASE, not an individual case of the disease as expressed in any one dog.

a leg(s) that is bowed because the dog injured it's growth plate (s) jumping repeatedly off of high places as a puppy or a dog that had a broken leg as a puppy, or that was exposed to toxins or a poor diet while in utero or as a developing puppy,
may not have any genetic component... 
if is diagnosed as CD, it would be a case of CD caused by an environmental influence, and not an inherited disease.

Regarding he issue of bowed legs vs. CD and environmental causes/genetic causes, the need for a reliable scientific method of diagnosis, is an important consideration.

the possible environmental causes of bowed fronts OR CD needs to be further researched, as if they cause a severe manifestation of the disease, it is no less devastating and the way to avoid it is to learn what these causes might be through research and education.

we know some external, environmental causes, excessive jumping down from things even too much hard running down stairs, can injure growth plates in puppies, 
until they are eight or more months activity should be moderate,
a dam exposed to toxins, which could be environmental.. ie. pesticides, herbicides, a dam with a poor diet that does not support healthy growth of her neonates, can cause skeletal deformaties in the puppies are some known potential causes.

Mary


----------



## Leeann

When talking about enviromental, is early spay/neuter before growth plates close considered as one of the enviromental causes? We are starting to see more and more breeders recomend not fixing our pets till they are 1yr old.


----------



## juniormint

mary c said:


> "We have identified 4 traits that co-segregate: heart murmurs, liver shunts, cataracts, and chondrodysplasia (CD)." In genetics, co-segregation is "The transmission of two or more linked genes on a chromosome to the same daughter cell leading to the inheritance by the offspring of these genes together". So if we just concentrate on the relationship between genetics and CD (temporarily ignoring the "environmental factor" portion of CD) then it seems that the Dr. is stating that the genetic inheritance of CD is linked to the genetic inheritance of these other 3 health conditions in Havanese. This may not be the case in other breeds that have CD (I am not even sure if there is any research on it), but if inherited CD in Havanese tends to yield the inheritance of these other diseases as well, then CD should be a cause for great concern when it is found to have a genetic basis.heart murmurs, liver shunts, cataracts and CD, in their severe manifestations are devastating health issues in any breed,
> 
> whether or not they co-segregate - any genetic link if/when found for one or all would be cause for great celebration by all breeders.
> 
> ---
> 
> *if *CD does co-segreate with the other diseases certainly it is cause for concern...
> no one has argued this statement on either side of this issue
> 
> what people do disagree with is the statement that Havanese breeders are breeding CD dogs.


It would appear it has already been established that they do co-segregate. And by definition that would also mean there is a genetic component.

And it would appear your contention is some people are breeding Havanese and letting them jump down from couches.

mary you seem to be pushing the environment as a leading cause of CD. I read on a yahoo group you were kicked off the HCA's Health Committee. Is this position the reason?

I know there are people breeding/showing dogs with bowed fronts (my breeder). Do you believe their bowed fronts were caused by the environment and they passed that on to my dog? I guess I'm trying to say do you think CD in Havs was originall caused by the environment and THEN passed on genetically? If so, how would that relate back to the co-segregation that has already been proven? I say proven because a peer reviewed article that will be published in a genetics journal is going to be some pretty heavy stuff for you to argue against.


----------



## whitBmom

Okay, things like this: "I read on a yahoo group you were kicked off the HCA's Health Committee. Is this position the reason? " Do NOT need to be said here, otherwise we are no better than the mudslinging people on BOTH sides. Juniormint, you could have PM'd the individual of their removal from the HCA. It could be common "fact" but there is no need to try to use humiliation to try to win an arguement "point". This particular way of trying to "establish" facts is what caused me to leave the "big list" and the Bluebonnet group. I love my havanese, but I do believe there is no need to start humiliating anyone on this forum, if we disagree or need more clarification. If this continues, this forum has the chance to degrade into what we want to prevent here. Keep your comments civil - no matter what side of the fence you are on.


----------



## juliav

I agree with Helen, please keep the conversation civil. There is no need for personal attacks, this forum has managed to stay friendly with people stating their opinions and agreeing to disagree.


----------



## Honey Poney's

Helen, exactelly what I wanted to say also.


Christine


----------



## mary c

juniormint said:


> It would appear it has already been established that they do co-segregate. And by definition that would also mean there is a genetic component.
> 
> And it would appear your contention is some people are breeding Havanese and letting them jump down from couches.
> 
> mary you seem to be pushing the environment as a leading cause of CD. I read on a yahoo group you were kicked off the HCA's Health Committee. Is this position the reason?
> 
> I know there are people breeding/showing dogs with bowed fronts (my breeder). Do you believe their bowed fronts were caused by the environment and they passed that on to my dog? I guess I'm trying to say do you think CD in Havs was originall caused by the environment and THEN passed on genetically? If so, how would that relate back to the co-segregation that has already been proven? I say proven because a peer reviewed article that will be published in a genetics journal is going to be some pretty heavy stuff for you to argue against.


As a matter of fact, just such a think has been said, but not by me, rahter by a breeder of HSD's who sold a puppy to a breeder and the dog developed bowed legs,probably CD, bilatera and quite pronunced by seven months
she was told by two judges in the ring (which shows how bad it is) that the dog should not be shown because it hd such a bowed front... when she contacted her breeder in FL. she was told she must have doen something to the dog for it's legs' to be bowed so much, I have not had to tell anyone such a thing .

I do not say that your dog did something, to cause it's problem, but I know of more than one Havanese who does have a bowed leg from an injury.

And regarding your question, I was removed from the HC of the HCA after four years serving on it because of a personality conflict with someone who has removed others from the Health committee for similar reasons, and she always uses the same trumped up reasons, while the real reason is that they do not agree with her opinon.

The company I keep with folks who have been removed or forced to resign because of the abominable treatment they were receiving from HSDAA persons in the HCA is very good company. and includes past officers and committee members who are on commitees again and will no doubt be officers once again.

what got a certain hsdaa princile in a tizzy with me is my position that I stand by, 
that they or anyone should not judge other person's breeding choices so harshly, when we do not know the mode of transmission of many problems in the breed, and especially when they do not do as they say, they breed dogs with health problems and bowed or short fronts themselves.

I don't say they don't have the right to work to breed away from problems in their lines, I just say so does everyone else, I am not a hypocrite while others are.

when it was posted on the other list recenly about my removal, it was done so by someone who supports me and wanted to bring me out to point out the manipulations and
purges for open mindedness that occur to show people the wrongs that have been done inthe pursuit of control of the club and the breed, I did not respond on list as I did not want to begin another on list battle.

Cherie and Kathy on this list are well aware of exactly what I am telling you about and how it all came to pass in my situation and in others at the hands of HSDAA principals.

I suggested that we not change peoples words around, that it is a slippery slope, 
there is nothing in any of my posts to suggest that I am a proponent of breeding CD.

My dogs have straight fronts and silky coats and are not coarse or overdone.

I have said before that I do not breed bowed fronts as have some HSDAA breeders, I breed to the AKC standard that I support.

Mary Cane
Moorea Havanese


----------



## mary c

juniormint said:


> It would appear it has already been established that they do co-segregate. And by definition that would also mean there is a genetic component.
> 
> And it would appear your contention is some people are breeding Havanese and letting them jump down from couches.
> 
> mary you seem to be pushing the environment as a leading cause of CD. I read on a yahoo group you were kicked off the HCA's Health Committee. Is this position the reason?
> 
> I know there are people breeding/showing dogs with bowed fronts (my breeder). Do you believe their bowed fronts were caused by the environment and they passed that on to my dog? I guess I'm trying to say do you think CD in Havs was originall caused by the environment and THEN passed on genetically? If so, how would that relate back to the co-segregation that has already been proven? I say proven because a peer reviewed article that will be published in a genetics journal is going to be some pretty heavy stuff for you to argue against.


"And it would appear your contention is some people are breeding Havanese and letting them jump down from couches. "

in regard to this statement, it is not those breeding the dogs, but rahter the new families who are not always impressed with the importance of not letting a puppy over do, and injure itself... and
yes Havanese have been injured jumping off of things

what now would you like to suggest I am saying with that, that I like to breed dogs to jump off of couches and break legs? LOL

Mary Cane
Moorea Havanese


----------



## DAJsMom

Please!!!eace: eace: It's getting hot in here!


----------



## Doggie Nut

Pleeeeez people work out your issues behind closed doors....Thanks!:nono: :argue: :hug: :clap2: eace:


----------



## amorhavanese

*issues*




I don't see any problems with an open discussion on issues related to our breed that being the one and only Havanese!!!. Lets stay civil but this really does effect us all.
I personally do not believe there are two breeds here but one breed that someone who did not get there way on a name change two years ago at the national has now decided to take her toys and move to another sand box.
Mary
Amor Havanese
:whoo:


----------



## juniormint

mary,

My questions were legitimate. There seems to be a lot stress put on environmental issues and I want to know how that relates to the genetic. Is TAMU studying the external factors (could this be the egg thing?)? How could environmental aspects cause such a widespread problem in the breed? 

Or are you saying while there is a genetic issue that needs to be bred away from, there are also environmental issues (couch jumping) that need to be ruled out before a lay person can call a dog CD? And was your difference of opinion over the environmental side?


----------



## amorhavanese

*CD*

For me CD is one problem out of many we have in this breed. I personally have not had it my dogs they all have great straight front legs. Rather than soaping dogs lets get OFA to come up with some requirements so we have a test for it . That test can be added to the already four required tests for chic ?
Mary
Amor Havanese


----------



## SMARTY

Helen you are so right. If people cannot be nice and agree to disagree, I wish they would go back to where they came from.


----------



## Melissa Miller

Everything seems to be ok. Still a cakewalk compared to other lists....

Mary C., your response was very good! I totally understand where you are coming from.

It is just a very difficult time for everyone involved as everything that is happening now will affect our breed for years to come. So we need to be very careful how we proceed forward.



amorhavanese said:


> I personally do not believe there are two breeds here but one breed that someone who did not get there way on a name change two years ago at the national has now decided to take her toys and move to another sand box.
> Mary
> Amor Havanese
> :whoo:


I AGREE!


----------



## Julie

mary c said:


> someone asked for pictures of the original dogs, here is a link to a page from the Delaware Valley Havanese Club website with some of the foundation dogs
> shown.
> 
> http://ahavapicaro.homestead.com/HavFounders/foundershavs01.html


Thank you Mary........looking at those pictures was just a treat!:whoo: 
Wish there had been one of Rags...


----------



## juniormint

amorhavanese said:


> For me CD is one problem out of many we have in this breed. I personally have not had it my dogs they all have great straight front legs. Rather than soaping dogs lets get OFA to come up with some requirements so we have a test for it . That test can be added to the already four required tests for chic ?
> Mary
> Amor Havanese


And what should be done until OFA has a test?


----------



## juniormint

Melissa Miller said:


> Everything seems to be ok. Still a cakewalk compared to other lists....
> 
> Mary C., your response was very good! I totally understand where you are coming from.
> 
> It is just a very difficult time for everyone involved as everything that is happening now will affect our breed for years to come. So we need to be very careful how we proceed forward.
> 
> I AGREE!


So then why is my dog so different from others I see? Mine has a round eye, a huge head, bowed legs and is long like a weiner dog. Why is my dog so different? My breeder is a show breeder? The sire of my dog has lot and lots of champions? I think maybe the most champions.

Why does MY dog look so different? Why doesn't my dog have a silky coat? How can a top breeder produce my dog from the same litter she gets champions from? I understand you don't agree.........but give me more than just there are different styles becasue styles are slight differences rather than completely different looking dogs. A style is when you can tell a specific sire or a specific breeder or a broader head......it isn't style when you have to convince someone your dog is a Havanese.

So rather than just disagree how 'bout someone give a competing theory to the HSD thing. Make it logical and make is make sense. I'm tired nobody having any answers.


----------



## ama0722

Here is an interesting page to learn more about it's effects on malamutes. They use xrays, blood tests, radiographs.
http://www.minnesotamalamuteclub.com/brdprobs/chdvet.htm


----------



## amorhavanese

*styles maybe not*

What lines are your dogs from ?? I do not have long dogs or short dogs well at least not to short, I could have better coats and I am working on that.
I think my dogs look alike, or maybe its the look I like ?
No one has ever said my dogs did not look like Havanese except maybe HSD people who knows.
This is a fairly new breed there are going to be lots of changes , it happens in all breeds in the beginning. 
If you are looking for me to tell you a tale or story thats not going to happen I like facts also.
I have dogs with great coats very silky and beautiful and some that have fuller coats but I did in the breed I had before also and they did not split the breed.
There are people out there that could sell you a water front piece of property in the desert also. :frusty:

Mary 
Amor Havanese


----------



## amorhavanese

*web site*

amanda,

Thanks for the web site information looks great I am off now but can't wait to read more when I get home.
Mary
Amor Havanese


----------



## SMARTY

Juniormint, what has your breeder had to say about your Havanese? Have you spoken to them about how your puppy looks? Your issues seem to be more than a pet vs show quality. You describe a dog totally out of the standard.


----------



## good buddy

juniormint said:


> So then why is my dog so different from others I see? Mine has a round eye, a huge head, bowed legs and is long like a weiner dog. Why is my dog so different? My breeder is a show breeder? The sire of my dog has lot and lots of champions? I think maybe the most champions.
> 
> Why does MY dog look so different? Why doesn't my dog have a silky coat? How can a top breeder produce my dog from the same litter she gets champions from? I understand you don't agree.........but give me more than just there are different styles becasue styles are slight differences rather than completely different looking dogs. A style is when you can tell a specific sire or a specific breeder or a broader head......it isn't style when you have to convince someone your dog is a Havanese.
> 
> So rather than just disagree how 'bout someone give a competing theory to the HSD thing. Make it logical and make is make sense. I'm tired nobody having any answers.


Juniormint, Have you asked your breeder these questions? I wonder, does your dog look like the sire or the dam? Have you checked out other dogs in the pedigree to see if they all have a similar appearance?


----------



## tejanoHavs

juniormint said:


> mary,
> 
> My questions were legitimate. There seems to be a lot stress put on environmental issues and I want to know how that relates to the genetic. Is TAMU studying the external factors (could this be the egg thing?)? How could environmental aspects cause such a widespread problem in the breed?
> 
> Or are you saying while there is a genetic issue that needs to be bred away from, there are also environmental issues (couch jumping) that need to be ruled out before a lay person can call a dog CD? And was your difference of opinion over the environmental side?


juniormint,

Your questions may be legitimate (I haven't gone back through this very busy thread to even read them yet) but simply because they may be legitimate doesn't mean anyone has the answers for you. And if you think that can be frustrating as an owner, imagine how frustrating it is as a breeder. We're all in the same boat here:frusty:

The full manuscript from TAMU has not been published yet, so the summary update that was posted here and on other lists is all that most of us have to go on right now. Realize that update was in the hands of HEART and was not shared, even with those who support HEART. That has been another frustration for the Havanese community at large. TAMU was kind enough to send it to me with permission for me to post it publicly so that the entire Havanese fancy could be current with their latest update. They absolutely did not have to do that as HEART was their funding source for this, was their grantmaker, and that is who they reported back to with updates. The release of that update was nothing more than a favor to our breed at that point and was very generous of them because the initial funding provided by HEART, HCA and CHF has been completed and has been used to fund the research to date.

I do speak with the good folks at TAMU (and they are all professional, well respected and good people) and they are just in this research for the dogs. They don't care about breed politics, don't care if they are called Havanese or Silky whatevers. They feel like they are making progress for the dogs and have no allegiance other than that. To them (and me) data are data, research is research and while there may be strengths and weaknesses in any one project or approach, you don't go into it with preconceived ideas. When they broadened their sample and the degree of hereditability went down significantly, they didn't write that off. No, they simply reported it. Data are data, no matter what. And as with most research, your findings can lead you down a different path, can focus you in a certain direction, etc.

You ask about eggs and I will say that one of the first studies that HEART funded was done internally there with Havanese owners feeding eggs to their Havs (it was called the Egg Study) to see what effect it would have (if any). TAMU was not part of that and the statistics were being put together by volunteers with a background in that sort of thing. That was several years ago and we're still waiting to see the results reported.  That is so unfortunate because if there was a positive impact from feeding eggs, owners have lost several years worth of time in possbily preventing health issues from developing. Likewise, if feeding eggs had a negative effect, we don't know that either.

I just think there are more unknowns than knowns at this point in time and whether it frustrates us or not, we shouldn't be taking those frustrations out on one another. I'd rather see folks work together to move forward.eace:


----------



## tejanoHavs

juniormint said:


> And what should be done until OFA has a test?


If the main goal is to breed puppies who have the best chance of becoming healthy adults (whether they be pets or those who might be shown and possibly bred to contribute to the gene pool) then it is much more complicated than simply adding one more OFA test.

While yes, that would be nice, until then breeders can have their dogs' forelegs xrayed by an orthopedic vet who can advise of any abnormalities or they can soap those legs if they think that is reliable. But that is only one piece of the puzzle when breeding healthy dogs. You have very reputable Havanese breeders looking at the entire picture healthwise, making sure they are only breeding dogs who pass 4 recommended health tests (annual CERF, BAER, OFA hips and OFA patellas). Many of those same breeders are also looking at OFA elbow testing, OFA thyroid, OFA cardiac and more. Here's the statistics as taken from the OFA website and you will see that none of us as breeders should only be focued on one piece of the puzzle:

*HAVANESE *

RegistryRankEvaluationsPercent AbnormalPercent NormalBAER HEARING TEST818230.599.4CARDIAC324580.298.5ELBOW374686.892.7HIPS10011038.191.2LEGG-CALVE-PERTHES92630.0100.0PATELLA4113622.797.3SEBACEOUS ADENITISN/A100.070.0THYROID16928.784.8
Now, some of those % abnormals are only as low as they are because the owner of the dog knows the results of the test before sending it in on things like cardiac, patella, and BAER. So, you have lots of folks who won't send in and make public a failing report on their dog. But, those where owners don't know the outcome in advance of agreeing to disclose it show a more valid % I think. Those would be tests like hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia and thyroid.

And CERF data is even less valid for our breed if you try to look at it on a summary basis. Did you know that CERF will not publish a dog who fails? Doesn't matter if you want them to do so, they simply will not. To get it listed in OFA (who will publish that data) takes some special disclosure forms and even then once it is listed you can't use it with a vertical pedigree function that helps breeders make good decisions for future breedings.

None of that applies only to Havanese...it is like that for all breeds in which OFA registers health results.

Do you know that Havanese have 25 dogs listed on OFA now as having dysplastic hips? Hip dysplasia can be a horrible disease, and you can read more about it from OFA here http://www.offa.org/hipgeninfo.html. When I began in Havs, almost 8 years ago, we had only 1 or 2 Havs listed as dysplastic. Now, we've grown to 25 and out of those 25 dogs listed, 6 of those come from sires who claim to have straight legs. Does the fact that their sires have straight forelegs with no sign of CD offset the fact that instead they produce a higher number than average dysplastic offspring? That is a decision that only that breeder can make, but no other sires are represented so heavily in the hip dysplasia data. In fact, one of those straight legged sires produced 3 of the 25 cases of hip dysplasia, but he is still being bred.

That's just one example, but reputable breeders have to balance out the good and bad in every single breeding. If you are looking for a perfect dog to breed to, you just won't find it. And by perfect I don't mean a dog who himself doesn't have any health issues, but one who has not frequently thrown health issues in their offspring and whose vertical pedigree does not have a concentration of dogs with health issues either. That means the sire needs to be old enough to actually have some offspring who have reached the age where health testing can be performed. Sometimes it is difficult to even find many ancestors who have health testing when you look backwards in the pedigree of a stud you might consider. Stud shopping is not an easy task.

Our breed is young still in terms of AKC, health testing and many other respects. I'd like to see us give decent breeders a chance to make progress.


----------



## tejanoHavs

tejanoHavs said:


> *HAVANESE *
> 
> RegistryRankEvaluationsPercent AbnormalPercent NormalBAER HEARING TEST818230.599.4CARDIAC324580.298.5ELBOW374686.892.7HIPS10011038.191.2LEGG-CALVE-PERTHES92630.0100.0PATELLA4113622.797.3SEBACEOUS ADENITISN/A100.070.0THYROID16928.784.8
> .


Ooops...that table data from OFA didn't come through so well, did it? Here's a link http://www.offa.org/stats.html#breed so you can see it for yourself, but I'll type it out here too:

BAER - .5% abnormal
Cardiac - .2% abnormal
Elbow Dysplasia - 6.8% abnormal
Hip Dysplasia - 8.1% abnormal
Legg Calve Perthes - 0% abnormal
Patellar Luxation - 2.7% abnormal
Sebaceous Adenitis - 0% abnormal
Thyroid - 8.7% abnormal


----------



## tejanoHavs

tehashavanese said:


> Here is what Keith Murphy wrote
> 
> I am not a biologist or a geneticist, so I asked someone who is. I was told that .36 represents a high degreee of heritability (genetic), and that environmental factors play a role in the _development_ (expression) of the disease.
> 
> Steve


I'd suggest waiting until everyone reads the final paper instead of speculating as I don't believe it will say a "high" degree of heritability.

And even with any degree of heritability, it looks to be similar to the situation with mutations of the BRAC gene and breast cancer. Some women who may carry that mutation will go on to develop breast cancer. Not all of them go on to develop breast cancer, but some will. It is thought that some environmental factor (who knows...diet, exercise, the air we breath, the chemicals we are around???) comes into play there as well in determining who ends up with the disease process vs. who simply carries the mutated gene.

There is just so much more to be discovered before we all jump to conclusions on anything. We might wish this were black and white, but it isn't that easy. Giving those researchers at TAMU our support in the meantime is the best we can do to make progress towards the ultimate goal....a test for the gene that may predispose our dogs to a disease and knowing the mode of transmission so breeders can use that test to make the best breeding decisions. We're a long way from that, but I know the team at TAMU can make great progress as they have with other canine problems.


----------



## tejanoHavs

lbkar said:


> MHS Rehab, Cherie what a wonderful idea - anyone whom needs rehab from looking at puppy pictures gets to go to the breeders house everyday till the pups go to there forever home and get there fill of puppy breath.
> 
> Dont forget videos also, they are so much fun.


OK Leann, but if you come over for puppy breath, you also get to help me clean up after them....grin! I will post some photos as soon as I figure that out as I have a litter of 4 week old pups who make us laugh every day here!


----------



## tejanoHavs

aradelat said:


> I guess this means short legs -- but not too short -- and good angulation. My problem is determining between short, and too short. And I understand it, the HSD folk want longer legs on their dogs. WOuld this affect topline?


If a dog has longer legs but without the proper angulation and shoulder layback, the front will be "propped up" by those long legs and the topline will be level or it can even slant in the wrong direction. If you have longer legs with the correct angulation and shoulder layback, you can have a proper topline. Sometimes the overall proportion goes out of balance though with those longer legs and you get a dog who looks more square (breeders sometimes say they look like a bar stool) instead of one who is slightly longer than tall. And therein lies the problem with interpreting breed standards sometimes. One person's idea of slightly longer than tall is another person's idea of a really long dog with short legs like a dachshund or peke. But all of that said, you can create a dog with longer legs, proper topline and correct proportions. Just like anything in breeding, it takes some fine tuning to get that recipe exactly right.


----------



## Melissa Miller

juniormint said:


> So then why is my dog so different from others I see? Mine has a round eye, a huge head, bowed legs and is long like a weiner dog. Why is my dog so different? My breeder is a show breeder? The sire of my dog has lot and lots of champions? I think maybe the most champions.
> 
> Why does MY dog look so different? Why doesn't my dog have a silky coat? How can a top breeder produce my dog from the same litter she gets champions from? I understand you don't agree.........but give me more than just there are different styles becasue styles are slight differences rather than completely different looking dogs. A style is when you can tell a specific sire or a specific breeder or a broader head......it isn't style when you have to convince someone your dog is a Havanese.
> 
> So rather than just disagree how 'bout someone give a competing theory to the HSD thing. Make it logical and make is make sense. I'm tired nobody having any answers.


Junior Mint, what I was referring to when I said I Agree, is WHY this was taking place. From what you describe above, your issues do not relate to the breed split. I say that because you should have issues without the split. Even in our standard, round eyes, the long body, the bowed legs etc... it is not normal. Now every breeder does get some in the litter that are not perfect. Just like us humans! HEHE. BUT if your dog is that far off from the current Hav standard, I would take it up with the breeder. It might be a more severe case than what we are arguing here.

We are saying the dogs can have variety, but by no means to the extent you describe.

Another thing, which is just minor. It really helps if you somewhat identify yourself here. Im NOT saying you have to say who your dogs are, or your breeder, as I totally understand if you have concerns. But we have some sort of a community here and people are far more eager to help those who we relate to, even if its just a name. I apologize if you have given that. SO many of us know each others dogs names, our own names etc...when someone newer comes on and starts talking about posts from yahoo and names etc...you can understand the defensiveness. We protect each other, there is no harm being done.

If you really have these concerns about your dog, I would talk to your breeder. SO many are there to help. If your breeder would not like to help, then I would suggest reading the MANY threads we have here regarding the selection process. I bet you on your second hav, you will have one much more "Hav" like and one from a great breeder. They ARE out there, as you can see from all the great posts here.


----------



## tejanoHavs

juniormint said:


> ama0722 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was just kind of suprised to see the findings that *more* CD is caused environmentally, QUOTE]
> 
> Cherie, I'm not asking if you agree, but do you think this might also possibly mean that there MIGHT be some truth to the "cholestero" thing? That would account for the _external _factors
> 
> 
> 
> Hi juniormint (or is it ama0722 I'm replying to...I'm confused?),
> 
> I'm reading messages in this thread out of order, so someone may have already commented, but the cholesterol theory could in fact prove to be true and that would be one example of an environmental factor which could influence the expression of the disease.
> 
> I assume (bad me!) that if the egg study (which was done previously to see if we could find a link between supplementation of dietary cholesterol via an egg a day) had any significant good news to report that it would have been shouted from the rooftops and we wouldn't still be waiting for an update from HEART regarding the study that concluded a couple of years ago.
> 
> Now, it could be that we weren't feeding enough eggs or it could be that they do have some good news there that simply isn't shared yet. Who knows? But I think cholesterol is still a likely candidate for an environmental factor myself (but I'm not a geneticist, not a vet or anyone qualified...grin)
Click to expand...


----------



## tejanoHavs

tehashavanese said:


> juniormint said:
> 
> 
> 
> Doc and Diane did not write the Standard adopted by HCA in 2001 and approved by the American Kennel Club. Yes, they served on the Standard Committee, but everyone in the HCA at that time had the opportunity to contribute, comment and vote. The process of revising a standard for an AKC breed requires many steps,
> 
> 
> 
> Just to provide a little more background on how this all works, within HCA the standard committee consists of 3 people and up until Joanne Baldwin and Diane Klumb went over to HSDAA that consisted of them along with Natalie Armitage. All 3 members had to agree unanimously on any proposed change to the standard before it went to the HCA board, AKC and finally to the HCA membership for approval. So, each one of these ladies were very involved with what was ultimately put before the membership for a vote.
Click to expand...


----------



## Melissa Miller

juniormint said:


> So then why is my dog so different from others I see? Mine has a round eye, a huge head, bowed legs and is long like a weiner dog. Why is my dog so different? My breeder is a show breeder? The sire of my dog has lot and lots of champions? I think maybe the most champions.
> 
> Why does MY dog look so different? Why doesn't my dog have a silky coat? How can a top breeder produce my dog from the same litter she gets champions from? I understand you don't agree.........but give me more than just there are different styles becasue styles are slight differences rather than completely different looking dogs. A style is when you can tell a specific sire or a specific breeder or a broader head......it isn't style when you have to convince someone your dog is a Havanese.
> 
> So rather than just disagree how 'bout someone give a competing theory to the HSD thing. Make it logical and make is make sense. I'm tired nobody having any answers.


I wanted to add...that if the sire of your dog has the most Champions...and you are in a position you have to explain to people it is a Havanese, you REALLY need to talk to your breeder. And YES there are different styles and I see them in the ring, if your dog looks completely different than any HAV, again thats an issue w/ the breeder. Even if this breed split, your dog, from what you describe, would not fit into either standard.

I am sure in every breed, there are people with problems like you have. Just like humans, it can not be a 100% guarantee. I understand your frustration but a different style does NOT mean you can tell the difference between each sire. I'm sorry. A huge head ( as you put it) and round eyes, and on and on...is not what we are talking about here when we discuss the differences of the dogs in the ring...which are the dogs trying to represent the standard.

My .02


----------



## irnfit

Cherie, thanks for clearing that up about the Standard Committee. That now brings about another question. They were the majority on the committee, correct? So why wasn't it written to include the look of their "type" of dog?


----------



## amorhavanese

*Cherie's Post*

Great post Cherie, you were a great president and are a great source of knowledge from the time you served.

Mary
Amor Havanese


----------



## Julie

Love your avatar Mary!Such cuties!Now let's see.......I'll take this one,and that one....and ooh...gotta have this one.............:becky:


----------



## tejanoHavs

irnfit said:


> Cherie, thanks for clearing that up about the Standard Committee. That now brings about another question. They were the majority on the committee, correct? So why wasn't it written to include the look of their "type" of dog?


Well, I think it was written to include their type of dog personally. That's why many of us don't understand this entire argument.

My dogs here come from both of their lines and my dogs have no problem winning in the show ring (where the standard is applied by the judges). My dogs do well enough to have one I bred in the top 10 Havanese right now (he is sired by a dog that Doc produced and his dam is a daughter of a dog that one of Diane's studs sired), a boy I bred and own was the Best in Sweeps winner at last year's nationals (his sire is a dog that Doc produced and his dam is a dog that Diane produced), etc. So, I'm confused that they no longer think the standard fits their type. My dogs here are very much their type both in terms of pedigree as well as their physical appearance and they seem to do just fine when judges compare them to the current standard.


----------



## tejanoHavs

amorhavanese said:


> Great post Cherie, you were a great president and are a great source of knowledge from the time you served.
> 
> Mary
> Amor Havanese


Thanks, Mary. Many of those who have pulled away to form HSDAA were full of knowledge about the history of HCA, the reasoning behind certain decisions, etc. It is sad for the breed to lose that knowledge and points out a problem with vesting so much control into the hands of just a few people. They dominated all the key areas from board membership to committees such as judges ed, buyers ed, health, show events, local clubs, and standard. Those are all critical committees for any dog club. Sure, it was easy and they were all well able to run things. But in doing so we (as a breed club and as a breed) set ourselves up for a situation much like we are seeing here.

I don't think we'll make that same mistake twice and I'm hopeful that with an influx of many experienced fanciers into the HCA that we can make up for any losses. In the past, I quite honestly don't think some in the club welcomed those new members whose knowledge might compete with theirs and might threaten their control. I'm just the opposite sort of person and hope that when the dust all settles that HCA will see quite a few people interested in joining the club to help with the rebuilding process.eace:


----------



## JASHavanese

tejanoHavs said:


> Well, I think it was written to include their type of dog personally. That's why many of us don't understand this entire argument.
> 
> My dogs here come from both of their lines and my dogs have no problem winning in the show ring (where the standard is applied by the judges). My dogs here are very much their type both in terms of pedigree as well as their physical appearance and they seem to do just fine when judges compare them to the current standard.


That's where I get a little lost also. Bandit is their type of dog as well and she finished with three 5 point majors, then as a special she won most of the time she was in the ring. At the National she got pulled for the cut, and took 2nd in Sweeps in her class.:bounce: 
The really odd part of it is that my husband showed Bandit as a special and at the National and he had never shown a dog in a ring before in his life until he started showing Bandit so it certainly wasn't because a pro handler was at the north end of the lead.:whoo: 
The very first time he specialed Bandit was at a 5 day show where she took Best of Breed 4 of the 5 days. My husband was soaking wet that week and was a bundle of nerves because this was all new to him. I kept my distance from him until he went back to the hotel and took a shower :bolt: 
Bandit was a lot nicer and kept giving him kisses.:kiss:


----------



## KristinFusco

Hi Mary,

I definitely respect your opinion and appreciate your input. I have no prior knowledge of the debate in the Havanese community, I know that both groups are striving to breed health Havs (or HSDs for the other group I guess). I was just directly quoting the statement posted that was attributed to Dr Murphy.

"We have a new statistician on board, who is completely intrigued by the Havanese. Dr. Nathan Markward is a genetic epidemiologist at the Pennington Biomedical Research Center in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. His research is to better define the syndrome in the Havanese. Specifically, he is looking to identify signs that (1) segregate together, (2) may serve as indicators of overall dog health, and (3) are separate from, or unrelated to, the syndrome. *We have identified 4 traits that co-segregate: heart murmurs, liver shunts, cataracts, and chondrodysplasia (CD). *Encouragingly, CD appears to be a good indicator of overall health, meaning our ongoing development (with Dr. Sharon Kerwin of the TAMU College of Veterinary Medicine) of a standardized foreleg evaluation could serve as a valuable tool for breeders. "

I could be reading it wrong, but it seems to me he is saying that they have data that they will present in their next paper that suggests these four genes co-segregate. That would be a pretty strong statement for him to make if he didn't have some type of empirical evidence. I can't comment on the subject of "environmental factors" that are influencing CD as I haven't read on the subject, but I still stand by my statement that the doctor is saying (in this little excerpt) that he has evidence that heart murmurs, liver shunts, cataracts, and chondrodysplasia are linked genetically and can be co-inherited. I also think in the article that he said he identified the major locus that is responsible for CD, although many other genes play a factor in the disease.

Guys I have to admit, despite everyone being so nice and polite about it this whole thread has made me really sad The reason I love talking about my Havanese is that he is the stress-reliever in my life. So I am bowing out on this thread, if you have more genetics questions or just want to discuss cute Havanese, feel free to PM me or I'll catch you on another thread.

Hugs,

Kristin and Lito


----------



## Havanasilks

*Privileged Information*

I still stand by my statement that the doctor is saying (in this little excerpt) that he has evidence that heart murmurs, liver shunts, cataracts, and chondrodysplasia are linked genetically and can be co-inherited. I also think in the article that he said he identified the major locus that is responsible for CD, although many other genes play a factor in the disease.

Kristin and Lito[/QUOTE]

Hi Kristin,

Smidge says "Hi" to her Dad, Lito.....:biggrin1:

You have basically just stated part of the issue that is really bugging me and no doubt many of the Havanese breeders......that being: If Dr Murphy DOES have empirical evidence of a co-inheritance, and he has NOT publically released the study yet, WHY does it seem like the HSDAA is acting on information that is either currently PRIVILEGED to only a few, or possibly only being guessed upon? This reminds me of the Martha Stewart Genetech debacle.....she sold her stock on inside privileged information, there was a momentary blip in the stock and Martha got convicted, but THEN, when the REAL info came out about Genetech, the stock soared.

Hugs,
Robin


----------



## KristinFusco

:biggrin1: Hi Robin and Smidge!!!!!!!!!!

Lito says hi too!!!!!


I know I said I wouldn't comment anymore but one last post for you Robin LOL
I didn't realize that the information was being kept confidential. I only read the excerpt that JASHavanese posted on p 61 of this thread that everyone else had access to, so that is all I am basing my comments on . I thought that Dr Murphy was publishing this data soon in the Journal of Heredity? Maybe that is why he hasn't spoken about it, some scientists are reluctant to discuss their work until it is peer-reviewed just in case something needs to be changed, or out of concern for "copyright infringement"/discovery privilege or something along those lines, especially if they are the first to discover something new and want to protect the idea. I am NOT saying that is the case here, I have never spoken with Dr Murphy so I can't speculate on the reasoning. Maybe that's why he hasn't shared the specific data yet? Or do you mean that some breeders have been privvy to the info and not others? If that is the case, I am clueless 

~ Lito and Kristin


----------



## Tom King

If you want to place blame for the current standard, I'll take part of the blame. Even if there were only 3 people on the committee they did ask for other opinions. Ours was one of those other opinions. They made hundreds of phone calls. I say hundreds because we got at least one hundred and know that we weren't the only other people they were talking to.

We had a bunch of those different standards laid out trying to find common ground. It wasn't easy and probably not even possible.

One issue in particular I remember the discussion in detail-the discussion on muzzle length. The old standards called for muzzle to equal the length of skull from stop to occipet. There was much discussion on this point. I remember having a copy of the 1997 FCI standard in my hand during that very discussion. The 1997 FCI standard had also been dumbed down to fit some of the stuff in the American standards after the Dorothy Goodale changes. 

No one anywhere could find a Havanese that was equal there. The question was brought up about how could anyone breed for it if we couldn't find it. I remember while Pam was on the phone we were picking up our dogs, pulling the fur down over their muzzle and skull and comparing the lengths. I was the one that suggested "slightly" shorter as a way to describe it. The muzzles were slightly shorter. No one could come up with a better way to state it. It didn't make any sense to stick to the equal thing.

So if you want to find someone to blame on that, I'm the one to blame. I am absolutely positive that then nobody even considered that if you give a breeder a "slightly" that they will take half.

A number of the different committees seek outside opinions. Hardly a day has gone by that some committee has not called our house.

The problem is not so much WITH the standard we have now, it's better than the majority of different breed standards, but with how breeders choose to use it, or maybe choose not to use it. Anyone ever hear a breeder say, "I don't care what the standard says. I'm going to breed what I want."???? I have.


There have also been some people stating that it's a problem with Judges Education. The wall that's impossible to get through there is that attending a seminar is only one choice out of 10 that new judges have to complete 4 of to qualify to judge a new breed. These judges aren't even in the ring judging yet. Judges who were already qualified to judge the Toy Group when Havanese were accepted have no such educational requirements to meet. 

Look at all the other breeds in any ring. It's relatively easy for a judge to walk in and find the best dog without having to do an in depth study of the breed. Most judges who judge the Best in Show ring don't have all the breeds in the ring. They have to do a quick study before they go in the ring.

I've seen too many judges give up once the dogs are in the ring and resort to fault judging. In other words they pick one thing and judge the ring on that. At the Regional Specialty a couple of weeks ago the judge was lost and went straight to judging on soundness. He was lost on breed type. This is not unusual. The proper sequence is to find the dogs with the Critical Elements of Breed Type and then go to soundness.


----------



## mary c

KristinFusco said:


> :biggrin1: Hi Robin and Smidge!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Lito says hi too!!!!!
> 
> I know I said I wouldn't comment anymore but one last post for you Robin LOL
> I didn't realize that the information was being kept confidential. I only read the excerpt that JASHavanese posted on p 61 of this thread that everyone else had access to, so that is all I am basing my comments on . I thought that Dr Murphy was publishing this data soon in the Journal of Heredity? Maybe that is why he hasn't spoken about it, some scientists are reluctant to discuss their work until it is peer-reviewed just in case something needs to be changed, or out of concern for "copyright infringement"/discovery privilege or something along those lines, especially if they are the first to discover something new and want to protect the idea. I am NOT saying that is the case here, I have never spoken with Dr Murphy so I can't speculate on the reasoning. Maybe that's why he hasn't shared the specific data yet? Or do you mean that some breeders have been privvy to the info and not others? If that is the case, I am clueless
> 
> ~ Lito and Kristin


Dr. Murphy provided the update to Cherie, and encouraged her to share it widely with the Havanese fancy.

Mary Cane
Moorea Havanese


----------



## irnfit

I just read the Dorothy Goodale interview in the current issue of Our Havanese magazine. No where in that article does she ever mention any of her dogs coming from Arizona. She says they were from Florida Costa Rica and Texas. Not Arizona. Did she just forget? Is it in her book?


----------



## Thumper

Yes, enough contradicting information to make one's head spin! lol

Also, who is the "east coast breeder" that supposedly bred the high numbers of Arizona-type dogs?

Kara


----------



## Greg

Havanasilks said:


> I still stand by my statement that the doctor is saying (in this little excerpt) that he has evidence that heart murmurs, liver shunts, cataracts, and chondrodysplasia are linked genetically and can be co-inherited. I also think in the article that he said he identified the major locus that is responsible for CD, although many other genes play a factor in the disease.
> 
> Kristin and Lito


Hi Kristin,

Smidge says "Hi" to her Dad, Lito.....:biggrin1:

You have basically just stated part of the issue that is really bugging me and no doubt many of the Havanese breeders......that being: If Dr Murphy DOES have empirical evidence of a co-inheritance, and he has NOT publically released the study yet, WHY does it seem like the HSDAA is acting on information that is either currently PRIVILEGED to only a few, or possibly only being guessed upon? This reminds me of the Martha Stewart Genetech debacle.....she sold her stock on inside privileged information, there was a momentary blip in the stock and Martha got convicted, but THEN, when the REAL info came out about Genetech, the stock soared.

Hugs,
Robin[/QUOTE]

He did release it. Last year at the National. He had a complete seminar for anyone who wanted to attend (standing room only). Of course this came after presenting the paper at the 2006 Canine and Feline Genome Conference at UC Davis. What Jan posted was just a summary of his 1 hr long presentation (power point).

Don't let the smoke screen confuse you. The information has been available for almost a year now. Now people will say HEART didn't keep them informed, but that's not as true as they want you to believe. HEART was asked by the SHow Committee last year to invite Murph for an update. The BRHC has for several years asked HEART and Murph to attend and give updates. I tried for a couple of years to get some of the clubs in FL to invite Murph......and they always had other plans. Of course that doesn't stop some of the members from complaining they never hear from TAMU. Any other local club could, and I guess still can, ask HEART to come and present. HEART also put it out in a newsletter for people who made donations as well as their elist AND the big list with permission to cross post. If you go back into the archives of the big list you'll find Doc's post on the TAMU update.

You'll have to excuse us for acting on the public information released almost a year ago.


----------



## Doc

*The standard.*



irnfit said:


> Cherie, thanks for clearing that up about the Standard Committee. That now brings about another question. They were the majority on the committee, correct? So why wasn't it written to include the look of their "type" of dog?


All HSDs conform to the AKC written standard for the Havanese. That is why they are still HAVANESE at this time. The standard is vague enough to allow wide latitude in interpretation (as in what is 'slight' in muzzle slightly shorter than the backskull) that it can still look like two different breeds in the ring.
The HSD standard will not be dissimilar to the current standard only it will be much 'tighter' (ie muzzle to backskull ratio is 3:4, as in the Cuban standard we are working with.)

While the HCA Standard is not perfect by a long shot, it is a great improvement over the one it replaced which described the forelegs in one place as equal and in another as short. Just to be sure we understand 'equal', it means equal in length from elbow to withers as from elbow to ground so a short leg (which is shorter from elbows to ground than from elbows to withers) can NOT be equal. :focus:

Doc


----------



## Doc

Havanasilks said:


> I still stand by my statement that the doctor is saying (in this little excerpt) that he has evidence that heart murmurs, liver shunts, cataracts, and chondrodysplasia are linked genetically and can be co-inherited. I also think in the article that he said he identified the major locus that is responsible for CD, although many other genes play a factor in the disease.
> 
> Kristin and Lito


Hi Kristin,

Smidge says "Hi" to her Dad, Lito.....:biggrin1:

You have basically just stated part of the issue that is really bugging me and no doubt many of the Havanese breeders......that being: If Dr Murphy DOES have empirical evidence of a co-inheritance, and he has NOT publically released the study yet, WHY does it seem like the HSDAA is acting on information that is either currently PRIVILEGED to only a few, or possibly only being guessed upon? This reminds me of the Martha Stewart Genetech debacle.....she sold her stock on inside privileged information, there was a momentary blip in the stock and Martha got convicted, but THEN, when the REAL info came out about Genetech, the stock soared.

Hugs,
Robin[/QUOTE]

Not at all, Robin...there is no privileged information being withheld by anyone. Some of us have believed, since the very beginning, that chondrodysplastic dogs are more likely to be affected by the other health issues that affect Havanese. It is because we believed this that we went to Dr Murphy in the first place...so that he could do the actual research to prove our THEORY. And, it is because we believed, we have been breeding as if it were a fact.
Dr Murphy's findings simply confirm what we have been using as a breeding guide for years.

No one can accuse us (well,obviously they can but they are so wrong!) of making a secret about our theory of CD and other health issues. We've been talking about it to anyone who will listen for YEARS. In fact, it was our suggestion that CD was involved that created the first conflicts in the Havanese community over H.E.A.R.T. and health issues. Those people who have steadfastly refused to accept it, stubbornly refused to show anyone what their dogs look like under the coat and refuse to accept that it is a genetic issue simply made their own decisions on what dogs to use in their breeding program.

Doc


----------



## Doc

*See previous post...*



KristinFusco said:


> :biggrin1: Hi Robin and Smidge!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Lito says hi too!!!!!
> 
> I know I said I wouldn't comment anymore but one last post for you Robin LOL
> I didn't realize that the information was being kept confidential. I only read the excerpt that JASHavanese posted on p 61 of this thread that everyone else had access to, so that is all I am basing my comments on . I thought that Dr Murphy was publishing this data soon in the Journal of Heredity? Maybe that is why he hasn't spoken about it, some scientists are reluctant to discuss their work until it is peer-reviewed just in case something needs to be changed, or out of concern for "copyright infringement"/discovery privilege or something along those lines, especially if they are the first to discover something new and want to protect the idea. I am NOT saying that is the case here, I have never spoken with Dr Murphy so I can't speculate on the reasoning. Maybe that's why he hasn't shared the specific data yet? Or do you mean that some breeders have been privvy to the info and not others? If that is the case, I am clueless
> 
> ~ Lito and Kristin


Quite teh contrary Kristin...we have been taking a beating for years for preaching the perils of breeding CD dogs. We've posted information on all Havanese venues, including photos of soaped dogs AND radiographs. Margie has a whole page on the Erashavanese.com website about CD and how to soap dogs...soaping is simply a tool for breeders of dogs whose hair gets in the way of seeing the nekkid dog. It's not a secret weapon, just another tool we've been talking about for years. Yes, it takes some practice to get it right but it's a very useful tool. An alternative took would be to clip the dog down with a 10 blade...grin...but soaping is quicker and doesn't take so long to grow out.

Doc :biggrin1:


----------



## Doc

*The Arizona dogs...*



irnfit said:


> I just read the Dorothy Goodale interview in the current issue of Our Havanese magazine. No where in that article does she ever mention any of her dogs coming from Arizona. She says they were from Florida Costa Rica and Texas. Not Arizona. Did she just forget? Is it in her book?


Earlier interviews did include the Arizona connection. In an earlier version, the dogs she bought from Sun Haven Kennels were represented to her as the 'breeding stock of the Fantasio and Perez families' by the woman she bought them from. This 'middle man' portion was not in the current interview...I don't know if she 'forgot' it or not.

Doc


----------



## Doc

*Typos...*



Doc said:


> Quite teh contrary Kristin...we have been taking a beating for years for preaching the perils of breeding CD dogs. We've posted information on all Havanese venues, including photos of soaped dogs AND radiographs. Margie has a whole page on the Erashavanese.com website about CD and how to soap dogs...soaping is simply a tool for breeders of dogs whose hair gets in the way of seeing the nekkid dog. It's not a secret weapon, just another tool we've been talking about for years. Yes, it takes some practice to get it right but it's a very useful tool. An alternative took would be to clip the dog down with a 10 blade...grin...but soaping is quicker and doesn't take so long to grow out.
> 
> Doc :biggrin1:


Sorry for the typos...it's early.

Doc :brick:


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

KristinFusco said:


> Guys I have to admit, despite everyone being so nice and polite about it this whole thread has made me really sad The reason I love talking about my Havanese is that he is the stress-reliever in my life. So I am bowing out on this thread,Hugs,
> Kristin and Lito


:amen: I'm done too! eace:


----------



## Julie

I think it is a shame all the breeders couldn't have come together,worked together and agreed to better the havanese by breeding out the health issues as best they could.If the health problems or cd could be bred out in 5 yrs.or so in a havana silk (hopefully) as stated before in this thread,then it also could of been long gone in the havanese after all these years.Then there would be no talk of Rags,or an AZ.pheno-type because they would of long been bred out of the breed.

After all this,I know the 9 generation pedigree of my dog,and through pictures I have got to be able to see that after all these breedings--my dog looks very much like his ancestors did all those years ago.Isn't that the point?


----------



## tejanoHavs

Tom King said:


> So if you want to find someone to blame on that, I'm the one to blame. I am absolutely positive that then nobody even considered that if you give a breeder a "slightly" that they will take half.
> 
> A number of the different committees seek outside opinions. Hardly a day has gone by that some committee has not called our house.
> 
> The problem is not so much WITH the standard we have now, it's better than the majority of different breed standards, but with how breeders choose to use it, or maybe choose not to use it. Anyone ever hear a breeder say, "I don't care what the standard says. I'm going to breed what I want."???? I have.
> 
> There have also been some people stating that it's a problem with Judges Education.


Nice to hear your thoughts Tom I've never heard peronally a breeder say they were going to breed what they want, despite what the standard says. I've had great discussions with other leading breeders about the key elements of breed type and how those come about in real life breeding situations, but never have those discussions deteriorated to the point of someone blatantly saying they weren't going to breed to our standard.

While you mention muzzles that are too short in your estimation, I would also point out that we have those Havanese from name brand breeders who have muzzles that make their face appear almost horse like. It isn't the mischievious look called for in the standard and certainly isn't a muzzle that is slightly shorter when it is obviously longer instead. Like most things in life, you have your extremes and then you have those of us seeking a happy middle ground :biggrin1:

It all just points out that when words like "slightly" are used in our standard it makes it open to individual interpretation (or disregard for those folks you talk to). Some standards are more specific using numeric ratios to define things and that might make life easier for all of us who are trying to breed to (and judge to) a standard. Something for the standard committee to consider in terms of pros and cons when the time comes.

I know Judges Ed has a difficult job, :frusty: but we honestly shoot ourselves in the foot sometimes. For many years I have questioned how judges even know we have seminars being held when they aren't routinely listed online in the AKC Seminar section or printed in the AKC Gazette. I think we make it difficult even for those judges who do want to learn to actually find the seminars and study groups that we hold. Of course we'll always have judges who don't think they have anything to learn, but that happens in all breeds.


----------



## tejanoHavs

Thumperlove said:


> Yes, enough contradicting information to make one's head spin! lol
> 
> Also, who is the "east coast breeder" that supposedly bred the high numbers of Arizona-type dogs?
> 
> Kara


Beats me, Kara. That was written by one of the HSDAA folks so maybe someone there has some insight?


----------



## tejanoHavs

Greg said:


> Hi Kristin,
> 
> He did release it. Last year at the National. He had a complete seminar for anyone who wanted to attend (standing room only). Of course this came after presenting the paper at the 2006 Canine and Feline Genome Conference at UC Davis. What Jan posted was just a summary of his 1 hr long presentation (power point).
> 
> Don't let the smoke screen confuse you. The information has been available for almost a year now. Now people will say HEART didn't keep them informed, but that's not as true as they want you to believe. HEART was asked by the SHow Committee last year to invite Murph for an update. The BRHC has for several years asked HEART and Murph to attend and give updates. I tried for a couple of years to get some of the clubs in FL to invite Murph......and they always had other plans. Of course that doesn't stop some of the members from complaining they never hear from TAMU. Any other local club could, and I guess still can, ask HEART to come and present. HEART also put it out in a newsletter for people who made donations as well as their elist AND the big list with permission to cross post. If you go back into the archives of the big list you'll find Doc's post on the TAMU update.
> 
> You'll have to excuse us for acting on the public information released almost a year ago.


Wow...where to begin here? :suspicious: I was there at the seminar at last year's nationals...the one where the a/c didn't show up but lots of people did...grin? I think the problem is that a room with maybe 50-75 folks listening is a far cry from widespread distribution. And yes, TAMU folks have always been willing to come to local club events when asked and when their schedules allowed, but many local clubs cannot fund those travel expenses and once again that is a far cry from widespread distribution.

No one wants a filtered version of the current research because of the lengthy history of distrust that has filled this breed. I know much of this happened before your time, Greg, but I was around during those very gratifying times when HEART was first founded and the Havanese breed was accomplishing what others could not...the public disclosure of health information. :biggrin1: Then, due to people feeling as if that information was being misused (note I did not say that it was, but that was the sentiment) and due to people taking statements made by others as gospel truth (several spayed and neutered dogs based on what the "experts" at the time were saying about cataracts and hereditablity), that trust gradually eroded over time. Enter the HEART Egg Study, one where many of us participated but are still waiting years later to be told the results. Certain people know unofficially the results, but the general public does not. Move on to the Hav100 (the HEART project which led to TAMU's research), the "X-Files" and so on. Never does the general public receive the full report directly from the research and that just leads to more distrust. Communications has never been a strong suiteace:

But I talk to the folks at TAMU, help whenever I can with support and when I asked TAMU for their research update and explained that even board members of the parent club had not seen it (who contributed $30,000 of the members' funds to that research plus our funds at Canine Health Foundation) they were very gracious to allow me to distribute it freely for the first time to the general public. Open disclosure will lead to people understanding and trusting once again. The many people who breed and own Havanese should NOT have to travel across the US ior subscribe to an e-list in order to be informed straight from the experts. That's the point here. To receive partial information coming from those folks that many people already didn't trust was just a recipe for a PR disaster.

Normal clubs and breed health foundations <g> would receive those updates and pass them along in full (not filtered by someone speaking for the health foundation)...on their website, on e-lists, in parent club and other breed publications, etc. That would go a long way to dispel any trust issues I think.


----------



## tejanoHavs

Doc said:


> Hi Kristin,
> 
> Not at all, Robin...there is no privileged information being withheld by anyone. Some of us have believed, since the very beginning, that chondrodysplastic dogs are more likely to be affected by the other health issues that affect Havanese. It is because we believed this that we went to Dr Murphy in the first place...so that he could do the actual research to prove our THEORY. And, it is because we believed, we have been breeding as if it were a fact.
> Dr Murphy's findings simply confirm what we have been using as a breeding guide for years.
> 
> Doc


If no information is being withheld, then perhaps you did not receive the 12/06 written update from TAMU? I was told it (along with prior updates) went to HEART as the grant making organization. Maybe I just missed where it was posted verbatim publicly. I didn't see a copy in my quarterly Hotline, I didn't see it on the HEART website, but maybe it was posted verbatim somewhere else as I certainly have been off of many e-lists for a while and could have missed it? If we have the best interests of the breed at heart, then the full disclosure of that information without editting is part of working together towards that goal.

And honestly, I am one of many who would love to see the final results of the Egg Study we participated in years ago. Did the addition of an egg a day to our dogs' diets actually forestall any health issues? Did we cause liver values to return to normal, did we cause orthopedic issues to improve, did cataracts shrink or go away entirely? So many questions still revolving around the addition of a daily egg to our Havs' diets. And in the back of my own mind, I wonder if we learned anything negative in terms of adding that egg. I've certainly heard stories from individuals about all of this over the years, but if we don't have secrets, I don't understand why we haven't seen the data, the conclusions, etc. in written form somewhere for all of us to be educated.

Ockham's Syndrome was a term you and Diane coined and several health issues were intially lumped together under the umbrella of OS (as taken from Diane Klumb's book and stated on the HEART website http://www.havanese.net/heart/):
cleft palate, open fontanel;heart, liver, kidney defects;CD, skeletal asymmetry, patellar luxation, LCP;imperforate anus, malabsorption, inflammatory bowel;aggression, seizures;microphthalmia, cataracts, retinal abnormalities;pseudohermaphroditism, cryptorchidism;unilateral and bilateral deafness;sebaceous adenitis, shorthaired phenotype;missing incisors; syndactly and elbow dysplaisa....whew!

That list contains so many conditions, yet the recent update from TAMU indicates only 4 of them that are found with some degree of hereditability along with the outward sign of CD (and in combination some unknown environmental influence) . Obviously not all dogs with any of those 4 conditions are CD and vice versa not all CD dogs will go on to display any other health issues. If we could all just act like the reserachers do, leaving preconceived notions at the door, and come back to say "oops" we were wrong or the data didn't prove our full expectations, then I think credbility would begin to return.

I think the full, public disclosure of research results would go a long way towards helping heal the feeling in our breed that only a certain few know something that the rest of the breed does not. Can you blame many folks for not listening to those certain few when they started saying that CD was the root of all those conditions? I'm sure you aren't meaning that 2 years ago anyone had some sort of proof of the relationship of CD and any health issue (other than those who were severe enough to require surgery for the CD itself)? If so, I don't think that laundry list of symptoms would have been published under the OS umbrella. But maybe we just don't have the entire story yet.

We just do this to ourselves when it seems working together in an open atmosphere to inspire trust would be so much better for the dogs...


----------



## irnfit

Everyone should read an article in today's Newsday titled "A shepherd breed of their own?" It was written by Denise Flaim. It is very interesting and sort of on the lines of what is going on here. I posted some quotes on the Please Explain thread, in case anyone is interested.


----------



## Doc

*HEARTLine...*

Please read my previous post, Cherie...I have already posted where Dr Murphy's update was published, where it went and why.

Doc


----------



## Havanasilks

Dear Cherie,

Thank you so very much for joining this blog and even more for your calm logic, your knowledge of the issues, and your well thought out intelligent posts.

I was beginning to think my memory or maybe my understanding of certain events was faulty. Thanks for a little light inside this tunnel.....

Hugs,
Robin


----------



## Melissa Miller

Doc, was this the post you are were telling Cherie about? 
http://www.havaneseforum.com/showpost.php?p=20242&postcount=573

I did not see why the update was never released, but did read about Dr. Murpheys presentation. It was in a response to Laura and its kind of confusing as your answers and Lauras posts are intertwined. I can make Laura's portions quoted if you don't mind...so future readers can easily tell what Laura is saying and what you are answering.

If you were directing Cherie to another post of yours, regarding the update, I couldn't find it. But I am a bit tired from shopping all day. 

I had one quick question. Greg has been nice enough to try and explain the HSD standard. In your standard with the cuban tail and how it waves like a flag, would that also fit into our current Havanese standard? I am going to have to look at some more photos, to see the kind of tail the HSD is after. I was under the impression, Havanese tails were supposed to curl up over the back.

Just curious, I saw a Hav here in France and started to think about tails for some reason.


----------



## mary c

tejanoHavs said:


> If no information is being withheld, then perhaps you did not receive the 12/06 written update from TAMU? I was told it (along with prior updates) went to HEART as the grant making organization. Maybe I just missed where it was posted verbatim publicly. I didn't see a copy in my quarterly Hotline, I didn't see it on the HEART website, but maybe it was posted verbatim somewhere else as I certainly have been off of many e-lists for a while and could have missed it? If we have the best interests of the breed at heart, then the full disclosure of that information without editting is part of working together towards that goal.
> 
> And honestly, I am one of many who would love to see the final results of the Egg Study we participated in years ago. Did the addition of an egg a day to our dogs' diets actually forestall any health issues? Did we cause liver values to return to normal, did we cause orthopedic issues to improve, did cataracts shrink or go away entirely? So many questions still revolving around the addition of a daily egg to our Havs' diets. And in the back of my own mind, I wonder if we learned anything negative in terms of adding that egg. I've certainly heard stories from individuals about all of this over the years, but if we don't have secrets, I don't understand why we haven't seen the data, the conclusions, etc. in written form somewhere for all of us to be educated.
> 
> Ockham's Syndrome was a term you and Diane coined and several health issues were intially lumped together under the umbrella of OS (as taken from Diane Klumb's book and stated on the HEART website http://www.havanese.net/heart/):
> cleft palate, open fontanel;heart, liver, kidney defects;CD, skeletal asymmetry, patellar luxation, LCP;imperforate anus, malabsorption, inflammatory bowel;aggression, seizures;microphthalmia, cataracts, retinal abnormalities;pseudohermaphroditism, cryptorchidism;unilateral and bilateral deafness;sebaceous adenitis, shorthaired phenotype;missing incisors; syndactly and elbow dysplaisa....whew!
> 
> That list contains so many conditions, yet the recent update from TAMU indicates only 4 of them that are found with some degree of hereditability along with the outward sign of CD (and in combination some unknown environmental influence) . Obviously not all dogs with any of those 4 conditions are CD and vice versa not all CD dogs will go on to display any other health issues. If we could all just act like the reserachers do, leaving preconceived notions at the door, and come back to say "oops" we were wrong or the data didn't prove our full expectations, then I think credbility would begin to return.
> 
> I think the full, public disclosure of research results would go a long way towards helping heal the feeling in our breed that only a certain few know something that the rest of the breed does not. Can you blame many folks for not listening to those certain few when they started saying that CD was the root of all those conditions? I'm sure you aren't meaning that 2 years ago anyone had some sort of proof of the relationship of CD and any health issue (other than those who were severe enough to require surgery for the CD itself)? If so, I don't think that laundry list of symptoms would have been published under the OS umbrella. But maybe we just don't have the entire story yet.
> 
> We just do this to ourselves when it seems working together in an open atmosphere to inspire trust would be so much better for the dogs...


Thank you Cherie for clear and brief >g< history of how we got where we are today with these issues.

"_Ockham's Syndrome was a term you and Diane coined and several health issues were intially lumped together under the umbrella of OS (as taken from Diane Klumb's book and stated on the HEART website http://www.havanese.net/heart/):
cleft palate, open fontanel;heart, liver, kidney defects;CD, skeletal asymmetry, patellar luxation, LCP;imperforate anus, malabsorption, inflammatory bowel;aggression, seizures;microphthalmia, cataracts, retinal abnormalities;pseudohermaphroditism, cryptorchidism;unilateral and bilateral deafness;sebaceous adenitis, shorthaired phenotype;missing incisors; syndactly and elbow dysplaisa....whew!

That list contains so many conditions, yet the recent update from TAMU indicates only 4 of them that are found with some degree of hereditability along with the outward sign of CD (and in combination some unknown environmental influence) . Obviously not all dogs with any of those 4 conditions are CD and vice versa not all CD dogs will go on to display any other health issues. If we could all just act like the reserachers do, leaving preconceived notions at the door, and come back to say "oops" we were wrong or the data didn't prove our full expectations, then I think credbility would begin to return_. "

when they coined the term O/S and the list of conditions associated with it,
I was on the Health Committee of the HCA.
a draft of a page to be displayed on the HCA website under Havanese Health created by Joanne Baldwin was reviewed by the HC included O/S.
I counseled to be patient and not list O/S and what it included until the research was complete, for the very reason of credibiltity being compromised if it turned out to be incorrect, 
it being one of my not so popular positions on the HC.
O/S was added to the site anyway, though no vote was taken by the Health Committee to do so. 
I note that there is no mention of O/S on the HCA website Health page now,
I don't know when it was removed, with the history of the page missing for now, we can't see when it was added or removed at this point.

I have been told that the 12/06 update from Tamu was not the most recent sent to HEART, that there was a final report stating that it would be the last one, that has not been seen by the Havanese Club of America's membership or other Havanese fanciers as yet, and as you point out, as a major benefactor to HEART's debt to TAMU, the HCA is entitled to the information that they receive. which has been sent to HCA according to Joanne Baldwin, but a record of it cannot be found.

Mary Cane
Moorea Havanese


----------



## Doc

mary c said:


> "Even if it were totally benign (which it is NOT...even though mild cases may not interfere with function, a bowed leg is NOT anatomically sound based simply on the laws of physics), "
> 
> Hmmm, food for thought.
> 
> long low dogs that are bred with bowed fronts and easty westy fronts as called for in their standard to reflect their function, corgies, dachshunds, glen of imal, various go to ground breeds...
> are sound... their curved fronts serve them, the go to ground dogs have easy westy and curved fronts to enhance their digging, to help to push dirt to the side as they dig out a tunnel... the glen of imal was a spit turner, and the bowed fronts were to give the dog "torque" and strength it is said to help to turn the massive spits that roasted the meat,
> they are sound and their standard reflects their function.
> Many a dog with a less than perfectly straight, or bowed front (not grossly deformed) is successful in agility and performance events, many on this list no doubt have dogs without straight fronts that are very agile and most likely will have normal function for their lifetime, some will have problems as will some with straight fronts, they are not immune to bone or joint problems either as they mature.
> 
> please, do not jump the gun and make assumptions that because I know that some dogs and some breeds are sound though they do not have straight fronts,
> that therfore I must choose to breed dogs with anything but straight fronts, or with CD -
> as nothing could be further from the truth.
> I breed Havanese to the AKC Standard and do NOT breed dogs with bowed fronts. let's avoid that slippery slope.
> :yo:
> Mary


I will have to disagree with this premise, Mary. These are NOT sound dogs...these are dogs for which a standard has been written that calls for them to have a skeletal deformity. Medically speaking, physically speaking, bowed or deformed legs are not sound...they are pathologic deformities to normal bone. The fact that people choose to breed dogs with skeletal deformities does not make the dogs normal. That said, I see fewer functional problems with short straight legs...probably because all the joints are still in alignment so there are not abnormal physical forces stressing the joints. Most of the dachshunds, Corgis that I see have straight front legs but their legs are getting shorter and shorter through the generations. I expect them to skip legs in the future and go straight to paws.

Doc


----------



## tejanoHavs

mary c said:


> I have been told that the 12/06 update from Tamu was not the most recent sent to HEART, that there was a final report stating that it would be the last one, that has not been seen by the Havanese Club of America's membership or other Havanese fanciers as yet, and as you point out, as a major benefactor to HEART's debt to TAMU, the HCA is entitled to the information that they receive. which has been sent to HCA according to Joanne Baldwin, but a record of it cannot be found.
> 
> Mary Cane
> Moorea Havanese


I still think that the 12/06 update was the final update prior to the actual publication of the research manuscript in the Journal of Heredity. Of course, I could be wrong about that, but I personally do not know of any updates past that point. There were some prior to the 12/06 update I believe.


----------



## aradelat

*glad you found malamute website*



ama0722 said:


> Here is an interesting page to learn more about it's effects on malamutes. They use xrays, blood tests, radiographs.
> http://www.minnesotamalamuteclub.com/brdprobs/chdvet.htm


I'm glad you found the Malamute Web site. I posted it the other day but it seemed to be ignored.
I find it very interesting. Obviously, CD in Malamutes is inherited...


----------



## Doc

*No...it wasn't.*



Melissa Miller said:


> Doc, was this the post you are were telling Cherie about?
> http://www.havaneseforum.com/showpost.php?p=20242&postcount=573
> 
> I did not see why the update was never released, but did read about Dr. Murpheys presentation. It was in a response to Laura and its kind of confusing as your answers and Lauras posts are intertwined. I can make Laura's portions quoted if you don't mind...so future readers can easily tell what Laura is saying and what you are answering.
> 
> If you were directing Cherie to another post of yours, regarding the update, I couldn't find it. But I am a bit tired from shopping all day.


Neither could I. It was the one that said that the update Dr Murphy sent her was printed in the last Havanese HEARTLine (verbatim, no filters) which was sent to all donors including the HCA. That was the last update we received until notification that the paper was being published. I also said that it is the norm for non-profits to update their donors, which we have done. The newsletters were not inexpensive to print and send (Nancy and I contributed the printing costs.)



Melissa Miller said:


> I had one quick question. Greg has been nice enough to try and explain the HSD standard. In your standard with the cuban tail and how it waves like a flag, would that also fit into our current Havanese standard? I am going to have to look at some more photos, to see the kind of tail the HSD is after. I was under the impression, Havanese tails were supposed to curl up over the back.


The Cuban standard described the tails as a crozier (shepherd's hook) and is very specific that it should NOT touch the back. Many Havanese today have rather flat tails that lie on the back or curl on the back. They are supposed to arc over the back but not lie on it. In the Havanese judging seminars we mentioned that there should be 'air' under the tail but the Cubans want it higher. High head carriage, matching high tail.

Doc


----------



## juniormint

mary c said:


> I have been told that the 12/06 update from Tamu was not the most recent sent to HEART, that there was a final report stating that it would be the last one, that has not been seen by the Havanese Club of America's membership or other Havanese fanciers as yet, and as you point out, as a major benefactor to HEART's debt to TAMU, the HCA is entitled to the information that they receive. which has been sent to HCA according to Joanne Baldwin, but a record of it cannot be found.
> 
> Mary Cane
> Moorea Havanese


is this how conspiracy theories are started? I have been told.......? Mary that was irresponsible.


----------



## juniormint

tejanoHavs said:


> Wow...where to begin here? :suspicious: I was there at the seminar at last year's nationals...the one where the a/c didn't show up but lots of people did...grin? I think the problem is that a room with maybe 50-75 folks listening is a far cry from widespread distribution. And yes, TAMU folks have always been willing to come to local club events when asked and when their schedules allowed, but many local clubs cannot fund those travel expenses and once again that is a far cry from widespread distribution.
> 
> No one wants a filtered version of the current research because of the lengthy history of distrust that has filled this breed. I know much of this happened before your time, Greg, but I was around during those very gratifying times when HEART was first founded and the Havanese breed was accomplishing what others could not...the public disclosure of health information. :biggrin1: Then, due to people feeling as if that information was being misused (note I did not say that it was, but that was the sentiment) and due to people taking statements made by others as gospel truth (several spayed and neutered dogs based on what the "experts" at the time were saying about cataracts and hereditablity), that trust gradually eroded over time. Enter the HEART Egg Study, one where many of us participated but are still waiting years later to be told the results. Certain people know unofficially the results, but the general public does not. Move on to the Hav100 (the HEART project which led to TAMU's research), the "X-Files" and so on. Never does the general public receive the full report directly from the research and that just leads to more distrust. Communications has never been a strong suiteace:
> 
> But I talk to the folks at TAMU, help whenever I can with support and when I asked TAMU for their research update and explained that even board members of the parent club had not seen it (who contributed $30,000 of the members' funds to that research plus our funds at Canine Health Foundation) they were very gracious to allow me to distribute it freely for the first time to the general public. Open disclosure will lead to people understanding and trusting once again. The many people who breed and own Havanese should NOT have to travel across the US ior subscribe to an e-list in order to be informed straight from the experts. That's the point here. To receive partial information coming from those folks that many people already didn't trust was just a recipe for a PR disaster.
> 
> Normal clubs and breed health foundations <g> would receive those updates and pass them along in full (not filtered by someone speaking for the health foundation)...on their website, on e-lists, in parent club and other breed publications, etc. That would go a long way to dispel any trust issues I think.


Cherie,

I'm highly suspicious of you and your snide remarks towards Greg. He's been on here answering questions and taking heat and I wonder why you feel the need to belittle him? It makes me want to question the messenger.

Why don't we leave the personal attacks and snide remarks for the big list?


----------



## tejanoHavs

juniormint said:


> is this how conspiracy theories are started? I have been told.......? Mary that was irresponsible.


Sometimes it might sound that way. Sometimes folks use words like that to couch their comments though too so no one will think their comments are well documented facts that could stand up in court. Would it surprise you to know that our comments here are being forwarded on to folks at TAMU so they can look for defamatory comments? They didn't ask for that to happen, but it is. I won't say who is doing that (although it sure isn't Melissa...grin) or even venture to guess what their intent in doing so might be.

But it is a waste of TAMU's valuable time there to be spending even a few minutes reading an e-mail thread when the best use of that time would be focued on research instead.

I've warned everyone I know privately to watch those words. Sure don't want anyone to receive a letter from the legal dept. at TAMU. Our words are important and sometimes email or forum situations make communications more difficult than when face to face


----------



## tejanoHavs

juniormint said:


> Cherie,
> 
> I'm highly suspicious of you and your snide remarks towards Greg. He's been on here answering questions and taking heat and I wonder why you feel the need to belittle him? It makes me want to question the messenger.
> 
> Why don't we leave the personal attacks and snide remarks for the big list?


 I've tried very hard to keep my words respectful to all and to be pleasant. I'll continue to do that.

What I do find curious (or suspicious as you say) is that while I sign every single post with my full name and website URL so any of you can know who is speaking, you instead remain as "juniormint". As Melissa said in a previous post, it really does help to humanize you if people know to whom they are speaking. You can certainly choose to stay anonymous, and you may not be aware of this, but that's often a technique used by trolls. According to Wikipedia a troll is "someone who intentionally posts derogatory or otherwise inflammatory messages about sensitive topics in an established online community such as an online discussion forum to bait users into responding.[1]". Now, I'm sure that is not you, but when I click on your ID to see how many posts you've made on this forum, you have a total of 16 and all are related to the "two breeds" thread.

At least when you look at my posting history it goes back to 8/7/2006 and includes more threads than just this one where I try to offer helpful comments in a positive fashion. While I might disagree with someone, I do try to stay pleasant though and am sorry if others might have thought I was belittling Greg. That is certainly not my intent. :biggrin1:


----------



## Dawna

Cherie,
All your posts have been respectful. 
That is very much appreciated. 

Dawna


----------



## Doggie Nut

I am just a hav owner and a novice when it comes to all the things being discussed on this thread. Cherie, for what it is worth I do not think you were being snide to Greg and that you have been very respectful and informative. I have nothing to gain from saying that.....just my 2 cents worth!eace: Vicki


----------



## whitBmom

Yes Juniormint, keep things tactful and respectful PLEASE!!!


----------



## Greg

Juniormint,

I'm a big boy. Everyone knows I can take care of myself. Go ahead and ask your questions, but leave me out of them.


----------



## Doc

*Listening to idle gossip.*

I have been told that the 12/06 update from Tamu was not the most recent sent to HEART, that there was a final report stating that it would be the last one, that has not been seen by the Havanese Club of America's membership or other Havanese fanciers as yet, and as you point out, as a major benefactor to HEART's debt to TAMU, the HCA is entitled to the information that they receive. which has been sent to HCA according to Joanne Baldwin, but a record of it cannot be found.

Mary Cane
Moorea Havanese[/QUOTE]

You were told wrong. Simple. :nono:

Doc


----------



## Doc

I really like the format of this forum...it's nice that notification is sent to my email address to let me know if I should log on and check the forum. I didn't know you could send private messages...that's pretty nifty, too, and those little emoticons are such fun!

Doc:whoo:


----------



## Tom King

I've been trying to tell people for years that the forum format was better than the elists. I hate elists.


----------



## Melissa Miller

Tom is right, he has been trying to tell everyone that a "forum" is a better format. Doc...yes...I like the fact of the email notifications... it helps.. and

here is a tip for everyone..... When you QUOTE... ( I found this out the hard way) you will notice the entire thread is quoted. If you delete part of it....make sure the beginning and end "quote" brackets are there. So delete the text, but DO NOT delete that thing that looks like this [quote/]. The beginning of the post will have [quote & persons name] and the end will have just


> . If you want to quote multi sections, just quote the entire thing, and erase the part you dont want, just dont erase the first and end brackets that say
> 
> 
> 
> .
Click to expand...


----------



## Melissa Miller

Another note...the smileys and emoticons really help to portray intent. So if you are saying something and either know it can be taken another way, or know you meant it but with peace....hehe...you can show it....


----------



## Greg

opcorn: 

I like this one. yum


----------



## Melissa Miller

The third time is a charm...hopefully this one makes it...

AND A THIRD NOTE...sorry its late here....

While I obviously disagree with the HSD, I do have respect for Doc who has helped me in the past every time I emailed in a panic over Goldie. I disagree with how this has been handled and still think it should have been solved within our breed. But thats me..... 

SO knowing I disagree, I do want to say I believe everyone here has been rather mature about it. It is SO difficult to argue something you are passionate about in a tactful manner.
Almost everyone taking part in the conversation is known, or has introduced themselves. As I said in an earlier post to Junior Mint, its just really hard to take anyone seriously when we do not know who we are talking with. You obviously have a side and are "passionate" about it, but your posts all seem a bit aggressive and all over the place. 
No problem with that, except no one knows why. 

I do understand why people have a problem with this and it is hard to co-exist. Its a very sensitive topic. However, you can disagree with someone and still be respectful, and I do think Cherie has been. So has Greg and Mary and Doc. ( And everyone else...not trying to leave anyone out) And I'm proud of all of ya'll!  As Greg stated, we are adults and can fight our own battles, although respect is appreciated.


----------



## tejanoHavs

Melissa Miller said:


> The third time is a charm...hopefully this one makes it...
> 
> AND A THIRD NOTE...sorry its late here....


And big group hug to list mom (or is it list goddess) Melissa! :grouphug:I don't know many who would be stopping by the forum while vacationing off the coast of France! Hope the shopping, wining and dining has been wonderful!

Another one :grouphug:for co-mom/co-goddess Dawna who keeps everything running well while Melissa is off having fun arty:

Gotta love these little emoticons!


----------



## RedHeadedGator

I love the emoticons, too! My husband's favorite is :doh: (you can tell he loves Homer Simpson!) This one I love - :mullet: but not sure when to use it!!

Ok ... :focus:


----------



## Doc

Doc said:


> You were told wrong. Simple. :nono:
> 
> Doc


Ok...here is the 'latest' update from TAMU. I received it about 2 minutes ago. How's that for service with a  This is from Alison Starr, primary author on the upcoming paper.

--------------------------------------------
In response to the questions regarding the paper coming out of Dr. Murphy's lab:

Kristen is absolutely correct in her definition of co-segregation in terms of GENES. We, however, are talking about the co-segregation of TRAITS in the overall phenotype. That is to say, a dog that is affected with CD is more likely to be affected with one of the other abnormalities (liver, heart, eye abnormalities). Our use of "co-segregation" was determined by Dr. Markward, our collaborator in Louisiana, who employed the Rasch analysis for the paper. Whether the genes responsible for the overall disease presentation are "linked" in the classical sense of the word remains to be seen - we hope to glean some information from the whole genome screen that is currently underway. We are looking for a major locus in the screen, and there are some intriguing loci that have been identified so far.

In explaining our results, we try to use lay terms so that most people without a background in genetics can understand the highlights of our research and results. In doing so, we do not necessarily adhere to the strictest definitions of the genetic terms. This is not to say that we change our results, but we try to simplify the science behind them.

We are excited for you all to read the paper coming out this summer. We have reviewed the proof, and hope to have the paper available online in the next 4-5 weeks. We will be presenting these data at the National Specialty in August. We would be more than happy to explain our findings and conclusions at that time. Hope to see you all there!

Alison


----------



## Greg

Yeah Kristen! You go girl! :first: 

Traits???????? Is that something you can breed towards or away from?:grouphug:


----------



## Julie

yah Kristen!Our our resident smarty pants!eace: 

the smilies are fun........but I don't get this one:llama:
I'll have some with you Greg op2:

my favorite:eyebrows:and :becky:

:focus:


----------



## mary c

juniormint said:


> is this how conspiracy theories are started? I have been told.......? Mary that was irresponsible.


I have been told, and by a HEART research team member, who has been trying to locate a last newsletter to share that they believed was provided after the 12/06 update, so though Joanne would like to tell me I'm wrong,
the person who told me that there is a later update may be wrong in her 
thinking there in fact is later dated one, but I am not wrong in saying I have been told this.

I was not trying to start a conspiracy, JM (?) it is a fact that I was told this, I did not feel the need to share the person's name and possilby have them be the brunt of personal attacks.eace: 
their motive in looking for another update was only to have as much information shared from TAMU as possible:wave:

the ongoing concern regarding the witholding of information from HEART is a real one that has been a focus for many years, why information has not been shared freely I can't tell you,:suspicious: 
if the person who believes there was a final update after the 12/06 one is mistaken so be it, but there is no conspiracy attempt here. 
:boink:

Mary Cane
Moorea Havanese


----------



## KristinFusco

Hey guys! I SWEAR LAST POST :biggrin1: 

I wanted to say how much I appreciate how kind you have all been to me. I am so new to the toy dog world, we just got our beloved Carlito 6 months ago, and this is my first month on the forum, so I think its wonderful how much you guys support each other and try to educate one another with your ideas. You guys rock:whoo: 

But I did make a mistake in my last two posts, I kept interchanging the concepts of "gene" and "trait". The "trait" relates to the phenotype (ie the physical expression) and the "gene" relates to the genotype (I know you all know that  ) So I apologize for any confusion I caused, I was writing quicker than my brain was working and I should've proofread it  My bad. Mea culpa . The excerpt was talking about TRAITS co-segregating in the sentence I quoted (which is the phenotype).

SOrry about that ladies and gents, I will be more careful with proofreading my writing from now on 

Hugs,

KF and LitoMan


----------



## Doc

*Clarification*



mary c said:


> I have been told, and by a HEART research team member, who has been trying to locate a last newsletter to share that they believed was provided after the 12/06 update, so though Joanne would like to tell me I'm wrong,
> the person who told me that there is a later update may be wrong in her
> thinking there in fact is later dated one, but I am not wrong in saying I have been told this.
> 
> Mary Cane
> Moorea Havanese


I can barely follow what you are saying up there  but what I said was short and clear...I repeat.

"You *were told wrong*. Simple."

Doc :frusty:


----------



## KristinFusco

PS Julie I have totally been trying to figure out what that 4 legged thing is.....is it a llama or a reindeer? Either way it is cool


----------



## marjrc

Greg said:


> opcorn:
> 
> I like this one. yum


Aaaaahhhhhh... some much-needed humor! Thanks, Greg! LMBO :drum: :clap2: :tea:


----------



## Greg

KristinFusco said:


> Hey guys! I SWEAR LAST POST :biggrin1:
> 
> I wanted to say how much I appreciate how kind you have all been to me. I am so new to the toy dog world, we just got our beloved Carlito 6 months ago, and this is my first month on the forum, so I think its wonderful how much you guys support each other and try to educate one another with your ideas. You guys rock:whoo:
> 
> But I did make a mistake in my last two posts, I kept interchanging the concepts of "gene" and "trait". The "trait" relates to the phenotype (ie the physical expression) and the "gene" relates to the genotype (I know you all know that  ) So I apologize for any confusion I caused, I was writing quicker than my brain was working and I should've proofread it  My bad. Mea culpa . The excerpt was talking about TRAITS co-segregating in the sentence I quoted (which is the phenotype).
> 
> SOrry about that ladies and gents, I will be more careful with proofreading my writing from now on
> 
> Hugs,
> 
> KF and LitoMan


The way I read it,. your definition was correct and THEY changed it to help better explain what they are doing. No need to apologize, you were bang on.:whoo:


----------



## Greg

:brushteeth: this is what i need to do after eating opcorn:


----------



## Greg

:juggle: :crutch: :gossip: :kev: lane: :deadhorse: :fencing: :violin: i like this too


----------



## mckennasedona

Yea Kristin! And to think, we're related!!! (Well, our dogs are. That should count for something.....:biggrin1: )

Susan


----------



## mary c

Doc said:


> In response to the questions regarding the paper coming out of Dr. Murphy's lab:
> 
> Kristen is absolutely correct in her definition of co-segregation in terms of GENES. We, however, are talking about the co-segregation of TRAITS in the overall phenotype. That is to say, a dog that is affected with CD is more likely to be affected with one of the other abnormalities (liver, heart, eye abnormalities). Our use of "co-segregation" was determined by Dr. Markward, our collaborator in Louisiana, who employed the Rasch analysis for the paper. Whether the genes responsible for the overall disease presentation are "linked" in the classical sense of the word remains to be seen - we hope to glean some information from the whole genome screen that is currently underway. We are looking for a major locus in the screen, and there are some intriguing loci that have been identified so far.
> In explaining our results, we try to use lay terms so that most people without a background in genetics can understand the highlights of our research and results. In doing so, we do not necessarily adhere to the strictest definitions of the genetic terms.


we hope to glean some information from the whole genome screen that is currently underway...
we are looking for a major locus in the screen....
there are some intriquing loci that hav been indentified so far...
we do not necessarily adhere to the strictest of definitions of the genetic terms...
whether the genes responsible for the overall disease presentation are "linked" in the classical sense of the word remains to be seen...

the term co-segregate was "loosely" used in the TAMU update, so to have
stated "if the diseases co segregate" is not incorrect eace:

the statments are exciting in that they tell us that the findings they have to date have encouraged them to continue the research  
some people get too excited (?) and overlook these statements, to jump the gun and make statements that possiblilites are definitive conclusions.:nono:

Alison states that they will share their findings and what they have concluded from them in their paper to be published and at the HCA National 
in August :whoo: 
so until then, we'll all have to be patient. :couch2: :bathbaby:

:wave: 
Mary Cane 
Moorea Havanese


----------



## Greg

:croc: I like this one too


----------



## Doc

*You would...*



Greg said:


> :croc: I like this one too


Florida guy!:flame: :hug:


----------



## Julie

Doc,
I love the dog in your avatar.........we have something in common:eyebrows::biggrin1:


----------



## Julie

Mary,
I love your avatar too......looks similar to my Quince:eyebrows: :biggrin1:


----------



## Laurief

I dont know if I could have Quincy in my house all the time!! Everytime I look at his pictures I cant get over those eyebrows & laugh & smile & want to just give him a kiss - I would never get anything done!!!!


----------



## Doc

*Avatar..*



Julie said:


> Doc,
> I love the dog in your avatar.........we have something in common:eyebrows::biggrin1:


I just learned how to make one. That is Pala...I call her my college girl because, in addition to her AKC Ch, she has a Rally Advanced title, too. She's also a certified therapy dog...Ms Versatile. I was planning to work her (or play with her?) in agility next so she could get her HCA Versatility award (of course that's if I'm still in HCA when that title comes...sigh.)

If I could figure out how to insert an image I'd show you Pala in the rally ring practicing civil disobedience.


----------



## Doc

*Quincy..*



Julie said:


> Mary,
> I love your avatar too......looks similar to my Quince:eyebrows: :biggrin1:


is a definite qutie!:biggrin1:


----------



## Julie

That is awesome Doc!Quincy is just our pet with my special needs child.I would love to get him into therapy and visit children.
To post a picture- scroll to the bottom of the screen and there should be a box with manage attachments.If you click there,and locate the photo on your pc,then upload and I always preview post......then submit.It is easy or I couldn't do it!Photo sizing is the only thing......that is on the front of the forum to the far right.


----------



## Julie

:eyebrows: I have a thing for the havs with those brows! :eyebrows:


----------



## Julie

Doc said:


> I just learned how to make one. That is Pala...I call her my college girl because, in addition to her AKC Ch, she has a Rally Advanced title, too. She's also a certified therapy dog...Ms Versatile. I was planning to work her (or play with her?) in agility next so she could get her HCA Versatility award (of course that's if I'm still in HCA when that title comes...sigh.)
> 
> If I could figure out how to insert an image I'd show you Pala in the rally ring practicing civil disobedience.


:beckyoc---you need to stay in the HCA.:becky:


----------



## aradelat

I contacted the folks who have been studying CD in Malamutes and this is what they had to say:
I know that chondrodysplasia affects other things in the body, not 
just the joints. Red blood cells are odd, and trace minerals are 
sort of out of balance. But I don't think it would affect the heart 
or cause cataracts. I think cataracts are also caused by a simple 
recessive gene.

I looked up your breed on the web and saw pictures of your affected 
dogs. Although the web page referred to it as chondrodysplasia, 
which does mean faulty cartilage (as the web page noted), you might 
want to check if affected dogs have the same blood profile as 
Malamutes do. The following shows the odd blood profile affected 
Malamutes have.

http://www.minnesotamalamuteclub.com/brdprobs/bloodnum.htm

This blood work can be done by almost any veterinary clinic. Having 
this done might help you determine if your breed has the type of 
chondrodysplasia found in the Malamute.


----------



## havanesebyha

I second that! I think Melissa did a wonderful job of this setup and I love being able to see the pictures and Avitars next to the names.

Thank you Melissa!

Libby :biggrin1:


----------



## Doc

*Picture*



Julie said:


> That is awesome Doc!Quincy is just our pet with my special needs child.I would love to get him into therapy and visit children.
> To post a picture- scroll to the bottom of the screen and there should be a box with manage attachments.If you click there,and locate the photo on your pc,then upload and I always preview post......then submit.It is easy or I couldn't do it!Photo sizing is the only thing......that is on the front of the forum to the far right.


Ok...I did it...now will see if it shows up! Thanks a bunch. It worked! This is me telling Pala to "Down" and Pala giving me the paw!


----------



## havanesebyha

Awh...so cute!


----------



## Doc

Julie said:


> :beckyoc---you need to stay in the HCA.:becky:


I have no intention of quitting HCA. :whoo: I've resigned from all committees to preclude 'conflict of interest' claims but I still own AKC registered Havanese dogs and I see no reason to give up membership in a club that I have belonged to (and worked my butt off for) for 14 years.eace:

That said, I did just give up my VA license HAVNESE if anyone would like to snatch it up. My new plate is CUBAN K9 :biggrin1:


----------



## dboudreau

I can't believe I have finally finished reading this thread. :ranger: It has been very interesting, :faint: Being Canadian, :canada: I don't know what effect this will have North of the border. lane: I don't think any good breeder wants to breed unhealthy dogs. :crazy: I just have to say "I Love My Havanese"


----------



## Thumper

Maybe I'll have to snatch that license plate up!  I have a plain ole' boring one with numerals and letters. blah.

Kara


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

Awww, i wish i would have know that YESTERDAY! I JUST ordered my new license plates 'Havanez' because Havnese was taken!!  Oh well......eace: 

How does 'Havanez' sound? Can you tell what its supposed to say?


----------



## Laurief

Shannon - I def. would know what that means!! That is so cute!! I just have plain numbers too, as my car is a leased company car so I cant get personalized plates. I do have a cover over my plates that says I love my Havanese and has pawprints. Thats about all I can do!! My groomer who has shih tzus - he plate says ****zu
Laurie


----------



## whitBmom

Doc cute picture of Pala  Shannon, that sounds like a fun plate - It understandable to me .

Debbie, as a fellow Canadian, I also do not know the implication, but I am happy to have FINALLY read through all the posts and caught up. I guess we will have to wait and see, but in the meantime I will enjoy my Oreo - no matter what he is.


----------



## marjrc

Total thread hijack....... ! :biggrin1: 

Julia, if you show that picture of Quincy :eyebrows: looking up with that adorable face, those doe eyes and that smile one more time, I swear I will hop on a plane lane: and snatch him up while you sleep!  You've been warned!!!!! hehehe 

Doc, I see a girl with attitude in that picture! 
Pala looks great too!  What a cutie.

I love the personalized plate, Shannon! Talk about bad timing though - one day later and you would have had the one you originally wanted. :frusty: 

:focus:


----------



## Laurief

Not so fast Marj...... I may beat you to Quincy!:eyebrows: 

Julia, you guys better watch out.


----------



## Julie

Doc,
What a great photo of you and Pala!:biggrin1: hoto:
I love her giving you the paw!:whoo: How cute!

I wish I had more time to work with Quincy on his CGC.He has to have that before he can be a therapy dog,right?My goal is to have Quincy visit special needs children in a classroom setting.He has helped my little boy lose some of the tone in his fingers,so now he can actually "pet" an animal.I'm very happy we got him and think he could help others too......

Now that you got the hang of the photos....we would love to see as many as you have!:whoo: :biggrin1: hoto:


----------



## Julie

Laurief said:


> Not so fast Marj...... I may beat you to Quincy!:eyebrows:
> 
> Julia, you guys better watch out.


ound: You guys are funny!Vinnie may bite!!!!!Or run to greet you!!!ound:


----------



## Laurief

Oh no - I am taking Vinnie too!!!!!:spy:


----------



## Doc

LuvMyHavanese said:


> Awww, i wish i would have know that YESTERDAY! I JUST ordered my new license plates 'Havanez' because Havnese was taken!!  Oh well......eace:
> 
> How does 'Havanez' sound? Can you tell what its supposed to say?


Perfectly...it's even better than HAVNESE...someone once came up to me and asked "Doesn't everyone hav knees?" You're good!:whoo:


----------



## aradelat

Doc, has anyone done a study to determine whether Havanese has the type of chondrodysplasia found in the Malamute. Those who studied chrondrodysplasia in Malamutes identified a CD blood type...


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

Thanks Doc!! Now i feel better!! :dance:


----------



## Doc

*Malamutes...*



aradelat said:


> Doc, has anyone done a study to determine whether Havanese has the type of chondrodysplasia found in the Malamute. Those who studied chrondrodysplasia in Malamutes identified a CD blood type...


Yes. The CD found in malamutes can be diagnosed by radiograph even on young puppies as there is a characteristic marker in the appearance of the growth plates. We radiographed a number of litters and none of them showed the marker.

Doc


----------



## aradelat

*malamutes and havanese*



Doc said:


> Yes. The CD found in malamutes can be diagnosed by radiograph even on young puppies as there is a characteristic marker in the appearance of the growth plates. We radiographed a number of litters and none of them showed the marker.
> 
> Doc


Yes, I understand about the growth plates. But my question was about blood testing, not radiography. There's a distinct blood profile of Malamutes with CD. Has anyone compared that profile to the profiles of Havanese with CD?


----------



## Melissa Miller

Thats a great question aradelat. I was impressed to see your follow up with them. I don't know much about it, but I would love to know the answer to the blood profiles. Has it been looked into?


----------



## aradelat

*havanese and malamutes*



Melissa Miller said:


> Thats a great question aradelat. I was impressed to see your follow up with them. I don't know much about it, but I would love to know the answer to the blood profiles. Has it been looked into?


I, too, would like to know if the H.E.A.R.T. folk or anyone else studying the health of Havanese have found a unique blood profile for Havanese with CD, like the Malamute folks did.
Here's a copy of a response to one of may questions to a lady who is involved with the study of CD in Malamutes:

"know that chondrodysplasia affects other things in the body, not 
just the joints. Red blood cells are odd, and trace minerals are 
sort of out of balance. But I don't think it would affect the heart 
or cause cataracts. I think cataracts are also caused by a simple 
recessive gene.

I looked up your breed on the web and saw pictures of your affected 
dogs. Although the web page referred to it as chondrodysplasia, 
which does mean faulty cartilage (as the web page noted), you might 
want to check if affected dogs have the same blood profile as 
Malamutes do. The following shows the odd blood profile affected 
Malamutes have.

http://www.minnesotamalamuteclub.com...s/bloodnum.htm

This blood work can be done by almost any veterinary clinic. Having 
this done might help you determine if your breed has the type of 
chondrodysplasia found in the Malamute."


----------



## Melissa Miller

That seems like if it has not been looked at, it would be so easy to do. 

That brings me to another question about H.E.A.R.T.

Doc- what is going to happen with HEART now? Im assuming since you are focusing on the new breed, your research and fundraising would continue with them? Is HEART going to remain active? 

I would really love to see a similar charity still alive with the Havanese. I love the rescues, but really believe in health studies etc.... if HEART is no longer, then we need to focus on something new. 
This could possibly warrant a new thread as its something I have been thinking of. At this point, the breed deserters are going to do what they want to. I think it is very important to focus on our Havanese breed and what is best for them. So if HEART as we know it, is gone, then we may need to focus on something new as far as health research. 

What a concept...the regular ol' Havanese still want to be healthy.... 
eace:

I'm feisty tonight...sorry.... too much European food....


----------



## Thumper

I think a similar charity is a great idea. I keep meaning to talk a friend about this. We actually know someone way up high on the food chain at the AKC, is a long time investor with our company. I'm curious to hear his take on the proposed split/new breed.

Ideally, all types of Havanese can be bred towards better health. Appearance-wise, I'm still having a hard time telling them apart aside from the soaped up pictures with the one with the hunched back (I know that is probably not the proper "breeding" term! Sorry!)

All I know is my Hav is a princess
















Kara


----------



## Doc

*CD/Malamutes.*



aradelat said:


> Yes, I understand about the growth plates. But my question was about blood testing, not radiography. There's a distinct blood profile of Malamutes with CD. Has anyone compared that profile to the profiles of Havanese with CD?


We have not seen that blood picture in CD Havanese (the Malamutes have an associated hemolytic anemia)


----------



## Doc

*H.E.A.R.T.*



Melissa Miller said:


> That seems like if it has not been looked at, it would be so easy to do.
> 
> That brings me to another question about H.E.A.R.T.
> 
> Doc- what is going to happen with HEART now? Im assuming since you are focusing on the new breed, your research and fundraising would continue with them? Is HEART going to remain active?
> 
> I would really love to see a similar charity still alive with the Havanese. I love the rescues, but really believe in health studies etc.... if HEART is no longer, then we need to focus on something new.
> This could possibly warrant a new thread as its something I have been thinking of. At this point, the breed deserters are going to do what they want to. I think it is very important to focus on our Havanese breed and what is best for them. So if HEART as we know it, is gone, then we may need to focus on something new as far as health research.
> 
> What a concept...the regular ol' Havanese still want to be healthy....
> eace:
> 
> I'm feisty tonight...sorry.... too much European food....


H.E.A.R.T. is not gone but it may be by the end of the year. I'm sorry that you think of us as deserters...we don't feel that way. We feel that we are moving in a positive direction. You just have no idea what's it's been like to hit your head against a brick wall for 7 years and still have people making excuses for CD and trying to cast doubts on some very excellent research that has confirmed our theory that OS is a genetic disease in the Havanese. Who cares who came up with the term Ockham Syndrome? I've heard it said that it was 'invented' by Diane and I as if that somehow is a bad thing. It is now a fact and will soon be in the medical literature. And, through the years there are those who have, and continue to, try to discredit H.E.A.R.T. and our efforts. Sorry that every one of our research efforts did not result in published papers...we did our best and, in the end, our efforts were very useful to TAMU. No, we did not end up with a published paper for the HAV100 but the datathat was collected was shared with TAMU and considered valuable enough to form the basis for beginning the project. And we raised over $220,000 (that was ALL given to TAMU) while keeping expenses down to next to nothing (by donating most ourselves)...how many non-profits can claim ~95% of donations going straight to research?) Shoot, most spend half or MORE of their budgets on salaries or fundraising...not us. I am very proud of what we accomplished and the support we had from (most of) the Havanese community. Sure there were people who were unhappy with our theory and efforts. And there were people who signed their dogs up for research (like the HAV100) and then never managed to get their data in (oh, you would not believe the excuses we got for not getting soaps in or liver panels submitted) which made completion of the study a bit difficult (and you know who you are  )

Ok...I digressed...Melissa, you are correct that, due to the different direction those of us who run H.E.A.R.T. are taking, it is likely that we will dissolve the corporation once the taxes are done and paid for and the rest of the treasury turned over to TAMU. It would definitely be in the best interest of the Havanese community to continue to support research into the cause(s) of OS in the Havanese. Dr Murphy's lab continues to work on this and it would certainly be a good idea for this work to continue to enjoy support (both financially and by cooperation with samples when needed.) :focus:


----------



## Greg

Doc. Thanks for all the hard work and many thankless hours (years) you put into the breed. I hate to think of where we'd be without you.:cheer2:


----------



## mary c

Doc said:


> H.E.A.R.T. is not gone but it may be by the end of the year. I'm sorry that you think of us as deserters...we don't feel that way. We feel that we are moving in a positive direction. You just have no idea what's it's been like to hit your head against a brick wall for 7 years and still have people making excuses for CD and trying to cast doubts on some very excellent research that has confirmed our theory that OS is a genetic disease in the Havanese. Who cares who came up with the term Ockham Syndrome? I've heard it said that it was 'invented' by Diane and I as if that somehow is a bad thing. It is now a fact and will soon be in the medical literature. And, through the years there are those who have, and continue to, try to discredit H.E.A.R.T. and our efforts. Sorry that every one of our research efforts did not result in published papers...we did our best and, in the end, our efforts were very useful to TAMU. No, we did not end up with a published paper for the HAV100 but the datathat was collected was shared with TAMU and considered valuable enough to form the basis for beginning the project. And we raised over $220,000 (that was ALL given to TAMU) while keeping expenses down to next to nothing (by donating most ourselves)...how many non-profits can claim ~95% of donations going straight to research?) Shoot, most spend half or MORE of their budgets on salaries or fundraising...not us. I am very proud of what we accomplished and the support we had from (most of) the Havanese community. Sure there were people who were unhappy with our theory and efforts. And there were people who signed their dogs up for research (like the HAV100) and then never managed to get their data in (oh, you would not believe the excuses we got for not getting soaps in or liver panels submitted) which made completion of the study a bit difficult (and you know who you are  )
> 
> Ok...I digressed...Melissa, you are correct that, due to the different direction those of us who run H.E.A.R.T. are taking, it is likely that we will dissolve the corporation once the taxes are done and paid for and the rest of the treasury turned over to TAMU. It would definitely be in the best interest of the Havanese community to continue to support research into the cause(s) of OS in the Havanese. Dr Murphy's lab continues to work on this and it would certainly be a good idea for this work to continue to enjoy support (both financially and by cooperation with samples when needed.) :focus:


really must read the note from Alison again...

it does state that the research is still open ended... those who counsel patience are not casting doubt... only not jumping the gun, as has been done before in this breed ; ( , some learn from the mistakes of others and some don't learn from their own mistakes.

"In response to the questions regarding the paper coming out of Dr. Murphy's lab:

Kristen is absolutely correct in her definition of co-segregation in terms of GENES. We, however, are talking about the co-segregation of TRAITS in the overall phenotype. That is to say, a dog that is affected with CD is more likely to be affected with one of the other abnormalities (liver, heart, eye abnormalities). Our use of "co-segregation" was determined by Dr. Markward, our collaborator in Louisiana, who employed the Rasch analysis for the paper. *Whether the genes responsible for the overall disease presentation are "linked" in the classical sense of the word remains to be seen - we hope to glean some information from the whole genome screen that is currently underway.* We are looking for a major locus in the screen, and there are some intriguing loci that have been identified so far. 
In explaining our results, we try to use lay terms so that most people without a background in genetics can understand the highlights of our research and results. In doing so, we do not necessarily adhere to the strictest definitions of the genetic terms. "

we hope to glean some information from the whole genome screen that is currently underway...
we are looking for a major locus in the screen....
there are some intriquing loci that hav been indentified so far...
we do not necessarily adhere to the strictest of definitions of the genetic terms...
whether the genes responsible for the overall disease presentation are "linked" in the classical sense of the word *remains to be seen...*

the statments are exciting in that they tell us that the findings they have to date have encouraged them to continue the research not that there is a definitive conclusion.

for some reason some overlook or misinterpret these statements,.

Alison states that they will share their findings and what they have concluded from them in their paper to be published and at the HCA National 
in August


----------



## Greg

i like this one too:frusty: 

and this one

:brick:


----------



## Doc

mary c said:


> really must read the note from Alison again...
> 
> it does state that the research is still open ended... those who counsel patience are not casting doubt... only not jumping the gun, as has been done before in this breed ; ( , some learn from the mistakes of others and some don't learn from their own mistakes.
> 
> "In response to the questions regarding the paper coming out of Dr. Murphy's lab:
> 
> Kristen is absolutely correct in her definition of co-segregation in terms of GENES. We, however, are talking about the co-segregation of TRAITS in the overall phenotype. That is to say, a dog that is affected with CD is more likely to be affected with one of the other abnormalities (liver, heart, eye abnormalities). Our use of "co-segregation" was determined by Dr. Markward, our collaborator in Louisiana, who employed the Rasch analysis for the paper. *Whether the genes responsible for the overall disease presentation are "linked" in the classical sense of the word remains to be seen - we hope to glean some information from the whole genome screen that is currently underway.* We are looking for a major locus in the screen, and there are some intriguing loci that have been identified so far.
> In explaining our results, we try to use lay terms so that most people without a background in genetics can understand the highlights of our research and results. In doing so, we do not necessarily adhere to the strictest definitions of the genetic terms. "
> 
> we hope to glean some information from the whole genome screen that is currently underway...
> we are looking for a major locus in the screen....
> there are some intriquing loci that hav been indentified so far...
> we do not necessarily adhere to the strictest of definitions of the genetic terms...
> whether the genes responsible for the overall disease presentation are "linked" in the classical sense of the word *remains to be seen...*
> 
> the statments are exciting in that they tell us that the findings they have to date have encouraged them to continue the research not that there is a definitive conclusion.
> 
> for some reason some overlook or misinterpret these statements,.
> 
> Alison states that they will share their findings and what they have concluded from them in their paper to be published and at the HCA National
> in August


And we raised over $220,000 (that was ALL given to TAMU) while keeping expenses down to next to nothing (by donating most ourselves)...how many non-profits can claim ~95% of donations going straight to research?) Shoot, most spend half or MORE of their budgets on salaries or fundraising...not us. I am very proud of what we accomplished and the support we had from (most of) the Havanese community. Sure there were people who were unhappy with our theory and efforts. And there were people who signed their dogs up for research (like the HAV100) and then never managed to get their data in (oh, you would not believe the excuses we got for not getting soaps in or liver panels submitted) which made completion of the study a bit difficult (and you know who you are ) :frusty:


----------



## Greg

hmmmmmmm :suspicious:


----------



## Greg

I hadn't used the suspicious before


----------



## Missy

Could someone post a picture or pictures of a dog that is considered the ideal HSD? I went to the page the compared the russian, costa rican, and arizonia-- -but I would like to see some pictures of this Perfect cuban based Havanese or HSD. I would truly appreciate it.


----------



## Doc

*Perfect dog?*



Missy said:


> Could someone post a picture or pictures of a dog that is considered the ideal HSD? I went to the page the compared the russian, costa rican, and arizonia-- -but I would like to see some pictures of this Perfect cuban based Havanese or HSD. I would truly appreciate it.


As you know, there is no such thing as a perfect dog (ok, DO NOT ask Greg...he'll disagree :argue: but if you go to the website, www.havanasilkdog.org you can see the logo with a representation of ideal type.


----------



## aradelat

With all due respects, that's a cartoon, not a real dog on the logo. It's impossible to see leg and muzzle lenghts or ear and eye shapes or anything.


----------



## jillnors2

That graphic doesn't help me either -and there are very few photos on the havana silk website. I'd also like to see the ideal Havana Silk Dog or something close to ideal. I'd like to see the HSD next to an "American" Havanese and I'd like the differences pointed out.


----------



## Doc

*Standard...*



aradelat said:


> With all due respects, that's a cartoon, not a real dog on the logo. It's impossible to see leg and muzzle lenghts or ear and eye shapes or anything.


When the standard is approved, it will be published and you will be able to see what specifics are called for in the Silk Dog. You'll just have to be patient.


----------



## marjrc

Here is a link to the gallery where Greg posted pictures of Havanese and HSD's. http://www.havaneseforum.com/photopost531/showgallery.php/cat/549

Greg has this link somewhere in this very long thread, but goodness knows I'll never find it! lol

Just trying to help.


----------



## jillnors2

> When the standard is approved, it will be published and you will be able to see what specifics are called for in the Silk Dog. You'll just have to be patient


This doesn't make sense. On your website it says you have Foundation dogs, what do they look like?

It also says you need to evaluate dogs to see if they meet HSDAA requirements and that every dog that phenotypically resembles a Havana Silk Dog is NOT automatically eligible for registration. How are you deciding what phenotypically resembles a HSD if an HSD is not defined? Seems like you're putting the cart before the horse. Greg said his dogs were evaluated and they are HSD's, what 's the criteria?


----------



## mary c

here are two pictures of Havanese : )

one is my Sweetheart, being finished out of the Bred By class, with four majors, a Bred By Group 3 and 2 points to go: )
the other is Bryer, who just finished and is a cousin to my Sweetheart, they both are about 13 months old.

Mary


----------



## dboudreau

They are both very beautiful Mary.


----------



## Thumper

They are beauties, Mary!










Kara


----------



## Greg

aradelat said:


> With all due respects, that's a cartoon, not a real dog on the logo. It's impossible to see leg and muzzle lenghts or ear and eye shapes or anything.


I beg to differ. That is an illustration rather than a cartoon. Cartoons are for entertainment. Illustrations are a graphic visualizations. Illustrations are used in text books, medical references and even Judges Education materials. To say that you cannot see things that show a difference between an HSD and a Havanese _may _also mean your eye isn't trained to know the difference.


----------



## Missy

those are two beautiful Hav's. the top one does kind of look like the drawing on the HSD site.


----------



## Julie

:biggrin1: beautiful havanese Mary!Just beautiful!:biggrin1:


----------



## Leeann

Mary, I was at that dog show that Bryer got his championship, Were you there? I would have loved to meet you. Are you planning on going to any local shows soon? I know there is one this weekend and a few others in July. 

Both are gorgeous havs.


----------



## jillnors2

> To say that you cannot see things that show a difference between an HSD and a Havanese may also mean your eye isn't trained to know the difference.


Greg, since you have a trained eye, can you tell me the difference between Mary's Rodeo Sweetheart (picture posted on page 92) and the HSD ?
Thank You
Jill


----------



## Thumper

Is there a picture of a real dog with the tail set that high? The illustration seems to have a higher tail set than the pictures in the gallery of the HSDs. Or is that a trait that you are all breeding towards?


----------



## Greg

Thumperlove said:


> Is there a picture of a real dog with the tail set that high? The illustration seems to have a higher tail set than the pictures in the gallery of the HSDs. Or is that a trait that you are all breeding towards?


Here's a dog with a high tail carriage not a high tail set. This dog has a croup about 1.5" with the angle of the Ischium at 30 degrees. He is spectacular.










This bitch also has a high tail carriage


----------



## aradelat

*very beautiful havanese*



dboudreau said:


> They are both very beautiful Mary.


Mary's dogs are very beautiful. So are the HSD on the thread helpfully provided by Markjrc. The HSD seem to have longer ears, muzzles and legs and squarer bodies than their Havanese brothers. But I don't understand how that could be considered a Cuban standard.
The Cuban standard of today is more like our Havanese, I think. It may have changed over time, but it changed everywhere, not just in the United States.
Some think the ancestor of all Havanese is the Blanquito de la Habana, a tiny dog (no more than six pounds) with curly hair that was more like a poodle's.
I hope the HDS folk aren't trying to artificially change the breed to produce a different look....


----------



## Greg

jillnors2 said:


> Greg, since you have a trained eye, can you tell me the difference between Mary's Rodeo Sweetheart (picture posted on page 92) and the HSD ?
> Thank You
> Jill


I found it interesting you wanted me to compare Sweetheart to the HSD. Why not both?


----------



## Thumper

Thanks, Greg. They are both gorgeous!

Kara


----------



## Missy

the biggest difference to me-- an untrained eye---is that the HSD has some air between their skirts and the floor- so longer legs-- If I hold my dogs collars and tail up he looks like and HSD too. There is no question that those two dogs are striking and that they have a sparkle in their faces--- but it looks like good breeding to me not nessasarily a diffrent breed. But go for it-- if this is important to some--- what are the personalities like of this new breed?


----------



## aradelat

Sorry for the inaccuracy. Yes, it is an illustration, but cartoonish in its quality. And impossible to determine phenotype features. You might be right that I have an untrained eye, but I've learned to use a tapemeasure and standards usually have measurements. You can't tell any measurements from that little drawing....


----------



## Greg

aradelat said:


> Mary's dogs are very beautiful. So are the HSD on the thread helpfully provided by Markjrc. The HSD seem to have longer ears, muzzles and legs and squarer bodies than their Havanese brothers. But I don't understand how that could be considered a Cuban standard.
> The Cuban standard of today is more like our Havanese, I think. It may have changed over time, but it changed everywhere, not just in the United States.
> Some think the ancestor of all Havanese is the Blanquito de la Habana, a tiny dog (no more than six pounds) with curly hair that was more like a poodle's.
> I hope the HDS folk aren't trying to artificially change the breed to produce a different look....


You need to re-read this thread. We said several times we have started with the 1963 FCI standard and have added (in places where the AKC requires us to put something) items from the OLD Cuban Standard. This would be the Standard that came before the current FCI Standard which many of the Cuban breeders now breed to. We have never said we are breeding to the Blanquito.

I think the disconnect occurs when I type something like I did above and then everyone runs out to the few Cuban websites and say that dog looks like theirs. We said we were breeding towards the original dog of cuba, not the current dog IN cuba. The current dog in Cuba is bred to the CURRENT FCI Standard (unless the breeder is feeling rebellious  )


----------



## jillnors2

> I found it interesting you wanted me to compare Sweetheart to the HSD. Why not both?


By all means, please compare both. I can tell Sweetheart has longer legs so she seems more like the HSD to me-but the HSD really has yet to be defined to the public so what the hec do I know. I would like comparisons to both dogs if you have the time.


----------



## Greg

Missy said:


> the biggest difference to me-- an untrained eye---is that the HSD has some air between their skirts and the floor- so longer legs-- If I hold my dogs collars and tail up he looks like and HSD too. There is no question that those two dogs are striking and that they have a sparkle in their faces--- but it looks like good breeding to me not nessasarily a diffrent breed. But go for it-- if this is important to some--- what are the personalities like of this new breed?


they are the same as the Havanese. the only real difference is the look. Higher heads, higher tails, single coated, more layback, drop in the croup, smaller ear


----------



## Greg

jillnors2 said:


> By all means, please compare both. I can tell Sweetheart has longer legs so she seems more like the HSD to me-but the HSD really has yet to be defined to the public so what the hec do I know. I would like comparisons to both dogs if you have the time.


I'm not going to compare either. That's the makings of a fight. However I do still find it interesting you can see a difference in the dogs.


----------



## Greg

aradelat said:


> Sorry for the inaccuracy. Yes, it is an illustration, but cartoonish in its quality. And impossible to determine phenotype features. You might be right that I have an untrained eye, but I've learned to use a tapemeasure and standards usually have measurements. You can't tell any measurements from that little drawing....


I find your comments about our logo insulting. Till now only a couple of people have been so blatant. I guess we were due.

Trying to show you the differences would be futile...... you don't know what you are looking at and don't have a point of reference.


----------



## Julie

:hug:BE NICE :hug:
please lets "talk" and understand each other...no slams.:focus:


----------



## jillnors2

I don't want a fight, there has been enough of that already. I do want to be educated because I do prefer the longer legs look-it is a look that is appealing to me personally. I'm not a breeder, I'm a novice with a rescue that I wish looked as good as any of these gorgeous doggies .

I wish I could post random pictures of dogs so that I could see your comments. I understand not commenting on a forum member's doggies, makes sense.


----------



## Lina

Greg said:


> I find your comments about our logo insulting. Till now only a couple of people have been so blatant. I guess we were due.
> 
> Trying to show you the differences would be futile...... you don't know what you are looking at and don't have a point of reference.


I find this comment extremely insulting. If you don't expect regular people to be able to see the difference between an HSD and a Havanese from your logo then how can you expect them to be two different breeds?

Personally, I can't see the difference between the two from your logo either and I've read enough of this thread to be able to tell what you mean is the difference between the two breeds.

I just feel like you could have been a lot nicer than you were.... :focus:


----------



## Julie

Missy said:


> the biggest difference to me-- an untrained eye---is that the HSD has some air between their skirts and the floor- so longer legs--


Isn't the reason in the 2 HSD photos the skirted hair looks different,is because of the age of the dog and not based on the length of the leg?Otherwise,then there is a big difference between just the 2 pictured.I like them both.......and even though they may have a longer leg length,I do not believe their hair is grown out the same.........


----------



## Greg

Julie said:


> Isn't the reason in the 2 HSD photos the skirted hair looks different,is because of the age of the dog and not based on the length of the leg?Otherwise,then there is a big difference between just the 2 pictured.I like them both.......and even though they may have a longer leg length,I do not believe their hair is grown out the same.........


you are correct. Nice eye. The dogs are structurally similar, but their coats mask what's underneath. I used them specifically because you could see the correct tail carriage.


----------



## Greg

Lina said:


> I just feel like you could have been a lot nicer than you were.... :focus:


True. I was just reacting to her insult.


----------



## aradelat

Wow. You were insulted because I said you could not determine the HDS standard from the little doggy drawing. I would not have expected that.


----------



## mary c

*sweetheart and bryer*

thank you all for your so kind comments re the girls >g<
they both are females : ) :biggrin1:

Sweetheart is my bred by girl, my fifth generation down from my own AKC Foundation Stock girl who we lost at almost fifteen a few years ago to a sudden crisis ; (

Bryer is my friend's dog who's grandfather is the same as Sweetheart's Grandfather, the fabulous Pan ; ) she is her third generation.

Both dogs have perfect Havanese temperaments, outgoing, confident, sassy, sweet, funny, and are perfect ambassadors for our Havanese, ound: 
both have silky coats with undercoat, both dogs have straight fronts, and lovely rears
Bryer has a slightly longer neck than Sweetheart, and a higher and tighter tailset, a little more rise to her topline. she is about 1/4" taller at the withers than Sweetheart, we have had them side by side >g<...

neither has a flat or single coat, they are young, with time their coats will be longer.

in the shows, they shared the points >g< and the judges who have judged them have complimented them on their fronts and multiple judges have commented to us both when we are in the ring competing (very friendly competition ; ) how far the breed has come.
:whoo: 
Sweetheart has a bit of a broader backskull, wider set eyes, a bit more spring to her rib, and is totally and utterly irresistable LOL, she has that je ne sais quoi >g<
her coat is easy care, though double.
her movement has brought compliments not only from judges but from viewers at shows from other breeds as well, including at a recent George Alston handling clinic we were to.

Both of these dogs are Havanese, neither is perfect though some say they are >g< (except in their momma's eyes) but they are a symbol of our Havanese today, descended from our foundation dogs.eace:

I don't beleive that all Havanese need to have the same coat, I love and breed for the easier care silkier but double coat, but appreciate the beauty 
in the fuller dogs with more undercoat that others prefer and breed for.
the undercoat which in Cuba provided insulation from the heat, form following function, maybe more in Cuba would actually serve them better,
both are beautiful, imo it is a personal choice .
:drum: :dance:

the term Havana Silk dog has been used as an alternate description for the Havanese for as long as there have been Havanese,
so as HSDAA followers say an HSD is a Havanese,
so Havanese are HSD's.

I do not consider it new or different.:thumb: 
:wave: 
Mary C

We will be at upcoming shows.


----------



## Greg

I think Mary did a wonderful job describing her dogs. I think they are wonderful examples of Havanese. Good job Mary.


----------



## Greg

aradelat said:


> Wow. You were insulted because I said you could not determine the HDS standard from the little doggy drawing. I would not have expected that.


it doesn't surprise me.


----------



## mckennasedona

Aradalet and Greg,
Do you guys know each other? Seems this thread, which has been amazingly civil thus far (with only a couple of exceptions) and informative, is deteriorating. I can't imagine it is simply over a logo. 

Susan


----------



## juliav

Mary and Greg,

The four dogs you posted are all stunning and in my totally untrained eye, while there are diffierences, they are not enough to start a new breed. I have no idea why I feel so sad about the split, as I am just a pet owner, but I do.


----------



## SMARTY

Mary C., Your dogs are beautiful by anyone's standard or description. Thank you for your candid comments.


----------



## Greg

juliav said:


> Mary and Greg,
> 
> The four dogs you posted are all stunning and in my totally untrained eye, while there are diffierences, they are not enough to start a new breed. I have no idea why I feel so sad about the split, as I am just a pet owner, but I do.


We're sad too. I understand and respect your position. Hopefully we can all remain friends.


----------



## Sunnygirl

I'm confused about the coat thing. I am a real novice, never having owned a dog before and being a Havanese owner for less than 3 weeks. I thought the Havanese was double coated, but now I'm reading that some of them are single coated. I have no idea whether my dog has a single coat or a double coat - all I can figure out is that he's black and very soft. How do you tell?


----------



## Greg

Havanese are double coated. Havana Silk Dogs are single coated


----------



## aradelat

mckennasedona said:


> Aradalet and Greg,
> Do you guys know each other? Seems this thread, which has been amazingly civil thus far (with only a couple of exceptions) and informative, is deteriorating. I can't imagine it is simply over a logo.
> 
> Susan


No sweetie, I don't know Greg. But he's committed to the logo and thinks I insulted it (although all I said is that it is hard to determine an HSD standard from the logo.)
While I don't know Greg, I can see from his postings that he is very committed to the HSD. It must be hard to hear some of our skepticism.
But I think we all can agree the Havanese is a fantastic dog.
It is sad the breed has been neglected, resulting in a lot of variety in the species. But I don't know about attempts to create a new type of Havanese by selective breeding.


----------



## jillnors2

If the AkC standard is double coated and HSDAA standard is single coated, how are Greg's HSDAA approved dogs AKC champions and why are the HSDAA founders showing in AKC (they did the past several weekends)? Very confused Hav lover here.


----------



## chrismom

I have one quick comment, and I'm sure it will likely be taken wrong. I remember a loooong time ago, I was in Lowchen, and we were all at a rarebreed show. It was the Havanese National Specialty. I was not in havanese at the time so I wandered around a bit while the havanese people talked havanese for a long time. 

I remember meeting a couple of dogs that were very different- one person had some that were very square and had curly coats, and one had square dogs that were very flat- single coats. Well, I liked them because they were square, I like square breeds!

So when I wandered back to where the majority of Havanese people were hanging out, I mentioned this discovery- everyone was like- no---- those are not correct, if you like a square dog, don't get a havanese. Well, honestly, until my son got really into them, I personally did stick with square dogs. However I have trained myself to like the havanese outline, not tried to make them what I like instead!

Those square, different types did not win that weekend, and neither did those types any time I was at rarebreed shows. All the other Havanese looked longer and different in coat, those were and are Havanese. That type has not changed a lot since then. Iwas there and saw them with my own eyes. This was over 20 years ago. Now all of a sudden there are people pushing for these coats that at one time very very incorrect in the Havanese, and also trying to make them square. 

This past weekend at a show, the specials in particular were much more consistent than just a few years ago, looked very much like Havanese, and were not square. Also, the ones that were there that I personally know, do not have bowed legs, and their breeders would not deliberately breed for bowed legs. The breeders of the dogs I know also are very serious about Health testing and committed to the future of the breed- that is Havanese!

It is great to see so many staying so civil, this is great. It has been an interesting thread, and reading the show lists too, it is good to see that the vast majority of Havanese people are staying true to the Havanese breed. I do think though that it seems a shame that it is more confusing to pet people. I think sometimes they are getting the impression that people who are breeding Havanese do not care about the Health as much as the people who want this New breed, and that is simply not at all true.

Sure, I would imagine there are people that have Havanese who don't care, and breed for profit alone, but once this New breed gets AKC accepted- it will be exactly the same. Once a breed has AKC recognition, the parent club cannot stop someone from registering their dog because of health or anything else. So in time that breed will be like any other breed as far as health goes. Good breeders do a good job, bad breeders do a bad job. In the long run, the real difference will only be what type as far as looks go, that people are choosing to breed towards. Whether is is a Havanese, like it always has been- not square, or this New Breed. 

Thats just my opinion


----------



## Melissa Miller

Greg said:


> I beg to differ. That is an illustration rather than a cartoon. Cartoons are for entertainment. Illustrations are a graphic visualizations. Illustrations are used in text books, medical references and even Judges Education materials. To say that you cannot see things that show a difference between an HSD and a Havanese _may _also mean your eye isn't trained to know the difference.


Greg, I think the request was wanting to see an actual dog compared, rather than a drawing.



Greg said:


> I find your comments about our logo insulting. Till now only a couple of people have been so blatant. I guess we were due.
> 
> Trying to show you the differences would be futile...... you don't know what you are looking at and don't have a point of reference.


This is silly, its a DRAWING! People are wanting to see examples of real DOGS. We are all trying to learn..
You sure seem defensive.


----------



## Melissa Miller

Doc said:


> I'm sorry that you think of us as deserters...we don't feel that way. We feel that we are moving in a positive direction. You just have no idea what's it's been like to hit your head against a brick wall for 7 years and still have people making excuses for CD and trying to cast doubts on some very excellent research that has confirmed our theory that OS is a genetic disease in the Havanese.


I do hate to use those strong words, but yea...that is kind of how I feel right now. Im not one to play the political cards, I just say how I feel. I do not know all the things you have been through as I have not been around these dogs that long. But I do feel like the focus keeps changing. I think sometimes its the CD is the main reason...and we say HEY wait...we ALL want to breed out CD...its not like any of us WANT CD in our Havs. And as studies are shared etc...Greg posted the main reason for the breed split is LOOK. A different LOOK. So in that case...yea I have to say I feel a bit of abandonment on both counts. I dont feel like the look of the dogs is enough to require a breed split....I think it could have come to play in a different way. I know you say 7 years but we are a very NEW breed. AND maybe some people who you are with dont have the best social skills which set you back a tad.....

I love my dogs, don't want either to be part of a breed who has CD or the "wrong" look. I say that because I did read a post that stated you all think the Havanese is not the "correct" look.

Understand I am saying all of this and probably have a dog that is very close to your HSD. He doesn't have that cuban flaggy wavy tail you describe...( Im glad....) but my reaction isn't based on jealousy. Many who have read this thread can see I have tinkered on the edge, but I just cant get past the measures taken that I feel are a tad extreme.



Doc said:


> Ok...I digressed...Melissa, you are correct that, due to the different direction those of us who run H.E.A.R.T. are taking, it is likely that we will dissolve the corporation once the taxes are done and paid for and the rest of the treasury turned over to TAMU. It would definitely be in the best interest of the Havanese community to continue to support research into the cause(s) of OS in the Havanese. Dr Murphy's lab continues to work on this and it would certainly be a good idea for this work to continue to enjoy support (both financially and by cooperation with samples when needed.) :focus:


I did suspect that would happen with HEART. Im sad...but understand. I am going to support the breed I have..and I hope something can be done to raise funds to continue what you did work so hard for.

We want to have a strong program when you decide to come back.  
You just might miss these lil ol non-correct Havanese.

Those waving tails may knock crap off your coffee table and send you over the edge... ound:


----------



## Leeann

This also saddens me that HEART will be no longer. Does anyone know if a new foundation will be started?

Melissa I know we did a poll on where the profits from the shirts you are making should go maybe this is telling us something.


----------



## Tom King

Just a fact: The first time I can find "double coat" in a Havanese Standard is 1988.


----------



## Sunnygirl

Can someone tell me how to determine if my dog has a double or a single coat? Just looking at him I'd guess it's a single coat, but I haven't a clue what I'm even looking for. Is it unusual for a breed to have some dogs with single coats and some with double coats?


----------



## juliav

Greg said:


> We're sad too. I understand and respect your position. Hopefully we can all remain friends.


Definitely friends.  I guess I will just have to own both Havanese and HSD....as soon as I can sell my hubby on dog #4. :biggrin1:


----------



## Dawna

For some of you asking questions that haven't been answered here, there is an interesting post on the Yahoo havaneseshowforum list from someone who has been involved with this breed since it's very early days in the US. 
Very enlightening reading. 
Dawna


----------



## Dawna

Sorry, my mistake it's a post on the havaneseshowforum list on Yahoo...


----------



## Greg

Sunnygirl said:


> Can someone tell me how to determine if my dog has a double or a single coat? Just looking at him I'd guess it's a single coat, but I haven't a clue what I'm even looking for. Is it unusual for a breed to have some dogs with single coats and some with double coats?


This is what the AKC says:

Double coat: An outer coat resistant to weather and protective against brush and brambles, together with an undercoat of softer hair for warmth and waterproofing. A dog with this type of coat can also be referred to as a double coat.


----------



## dboudreau

Dawna said:


> For some of you asking questions that haven't been answered here, there is an interesting post on the Yahoo havaneseshowforum list from someone who has been involved with this breed since it's very early days in the US.
> Very enlightening reading.
> Dawna


Thank you Dawna for posting this. I have stopped reading the showforum group, so I would have missed it.

It makes much more sense and very interesting.


----------



## Missy

Hi Chrismom, I think your post summed it up very nicely- and made this whole thing a lot clearer to us pet owners. I think I have one of each but with each other's coats. Cash is low and long but has the higher tail and a very easy single coat. And Jasper is squarer with a tighter tail and a very difficult wavier coat. Cash's Dad and his whole lineage is from Cuba--- but still he is more a Havanese than a HSD. I too preferred Jasper's sqaureness, but recognize the beauty of Cash's Havanese lines.


----------



## juliav

Hi Dawna,

I've read the post and it's by Liz Vargo, she is the owner of Destiny Havanese, very interesting and it's nice to have two sides of the story, especially from someone who was there from the beginning (or almost the beginning).

I guess the link didn't work, but someone has already posted the entire message in further in the post.


----------



## Julie

Thank you Dawna.I'll have to go check it out.I was reading some e-mail from there,but was overwhelmed with over 500.......so I decided to delete them all!:nono: Guess I should of read more..........I was reading the history of the breed someone posted and it varies from postings here on both sides?YIKES!:frusty: I'm very glad I'm not in the show world and a breeder.I have a big mouth and would find it difficult to shut-up!Also being a perfectionist type I'd loose my mind trying to sort out FACTS,and not OPINIONS...........:focus:


----------



## juniormint

I liked the part where she wrote:

"And don't even get me started about supposed chondroplasia in the breed. Spending over $200,000 on a flawed study group"

I guess we have those who don't think we have CD in the breed. Those that don't think it is genetic. Those that think it should be treated as a trait and those that think it is a disease to be avoided. 

:suspicious:


----------



## Honey Poney's

Can I please give a personnel oppinion without being killed for it.

Not really a personnel opinion but the opinion of a lot of European breeders.

The HSD looks more like a small Tibettan Terrier.

Sorry if I offended somebody.


----------



## tejanoHavs

*info from long time breeder, Liz Vargo*

I received permission to pass this along in its full, original form as written by Liz Vargo Tustin. Hope this is helpful to anyone who doesn't want to subscribe to a yahoo group to read it and I hope it's OK with you Dawna that I forwarded it here. Kind of long, but interesting! I will have to split it into 2 posts so it will work with the forum. Stay tuned for Part 2 :ear:

My name is Liz (Vargo) Tustin and I am Destiny
>> Havanese. Most of you don't know who I am except for
>> looking back on your pedigrees and maybe finding some
>> Destiny dogs in your dog's background. Although I am
>> now one of the longest dues-paying members in the HCA
>> (I joined in 1982) I no longer get involved in club
>> politics or policies. I am not on any of the "lists"
>> and for the past 10 years have chosen to just do my
>> own thing with regards to the Havanese. Having shown
>> and bred various breeds of dogs since the late 60's,
>> and after being actively involved as an officer and
>> board member in many breed clubs and local kennel
>> clubs (I am a past president of the HCA and also of
>> the Lowchen Club of America), I have experienced first
>> hand the intricacies and battles that occur in breed
>> clubs and local clubs and simply choose not to make
>> that a part of my life anymore. Being married to a
>> "non-dog person" is probably one reason, but after
>> devoting 40 years of my life to dogs, it's kind of a
>> "been there, done that" sort of thing and for me now
>> there are other issues in life about which I have
>> become passionate.
>>
>> However, having spent the last 27 years of my life
>> devoted to the Havanese breed, I take it personally
>> when an organization, namely the Havana Silk Dog of
>> America Association, publishes statements about
>> Destiny that are not true. I find some of the text on
>> the website just pertaining to me to be so incorrect
>> that I wonder how much else of the material is false.
>> It is a puzzle to me that in all of the supposed
>> research done by the organization no one actually
>> contacted me to verify any of the statements that were
>> made about my kennel! So it's time to set the record
>> straight.
>>
>> I purchased my foundation stock from Dorothy Goodale,
>> as did every early breeder, after meeting Arlene
>> Gaglione (Ti-Ara Havanese) at a dog show and falling
>> in love with her dogs - the first smaller breed I had
>> seen that wasn't hyper and yappy! But I was not one
>> of the early breeders, those being mainly of course
>> Dorothy (Havana Doll House), Mary Money (SRR), Sadie
>> Stromberg (Mendoza) and the above mentioned Arlene,
>> and curiously not mentioned Mark Kolbe (Hallmark), all
>> of whom were breeding way before I even knew what a
>> Havanese was. Mary, Sadie, and Arlene have long since
>> retired from breeding, Dorothy is extremely ill, so it
>> is unfortunate that they don't have an opportunity to
>> respond. Perhaps Mark wasn't mentioned because he is
>> still actively involved with the club and thus would
>> be able to tell a different side to the story, and
>> perhaps me because I have been a non-active member for
>> so long no one thought I would. Who knows. Whether
>> you agree with the early breeders or not, I believe we
>> later breeders should show some respect to the early
>> breeders and to their efforts and sacrifice rather
>> than to criticize what they did. Were it not for
>> Dorothy Goodale's efforts to recover the breed, NONE
>> of us would be here today, and certainly not those
>> doing all the criticizing.
>>
>> A smattering of new people became interested in the
>> breed in the early 80's, myself among them and also
>> Marsha Peterson in Richmond, VA who was the original
>> Elfin Havanese. All of us started with dogs from
>> Dorothy's Havana kennel. When Marsha decided for
>> personal reasons to no longer breed dogs, Joanne
>> Baldwin inherited her kennel, which essentially means
>> her foundation stock also was of the same background
>> as the rest of us. Somehow that fact was not
>> mentioned on the website. The mid 80's brought an
>> influx of new people to the breed, many of them still
>> breeding today. Those long-standing members surely
>> will remember the camaradarie shared by club members
>> at that time, all of us working together to better the
>> breed. It was a great club to belong to! And
>> although we of course did not always agree, we
>> respected each others opinions and right to disagree
>> without descending into personal attacks on individual
>> members. The HCA at that time was one of the most
>> democratic clubs in the country, the ENTIRE
>> membership, not just the elected board, voting on
>> issues. And the board of directors in that era would
>> not have tolerated the behavior of some of the members
>> today. But I digress.
>>
>> The HSDAA take s great pains to explain the origins of
>> the dogs procured by Dorothy with which she began her
>> breeding program, dividing them into types, the 'Costa
>> Rican' and 'Arizona' among them and describing each.
>> Having seen most of the early Havanese I have to take
>> exception to some of the statements made on the
>> website. In fact, the 'Costa Rican' dogs WERE
>> generally smaller, lighter boned, and shorter backed.
>> However, they had "Maltesy-looking" heads with shorter
>> muzzles, rounder eyes, shorter ears. They were not
>> longer legged and they shared the same problems with
>> front assembly with the so called 'Arizona' Havanese.
>> The AZ dogs were larger, heavier boned, longer backed,
>> with a blockier head piece, longer muzzle,(those who
>> know me will remember I used to call them "horse
>> faced", not derogatorially!), beautiful almond eyes,
>> longer ears. Both types had PROFUSE double coats
>> ranging from straight to curly, and ONLY the curly
>> coated dogs had wirey coarse guard hairs and ONLY the
>> curly coated dogs would form natural ringlets much
>> like those of an Irish Water Spaniel if left
>> unbrushed. We called it "cording" back then - a whole
>> other subject. If one reads the Cuban standard for
>> the breed, the 'Arizona' type Havanese were actually
>> more to their standard than the 'Costa Rican'. They
>> had what I can only describe as "that Havanese look"
>> which set the breed apart from amy other smaller
>> coated breed, something the early breeders were
>> desperately trying to establish. The 'Costa Rican'
>> dogs were many times mistaken for Maltese.
>>
>> Be that as it may, with such a small gene pool there
>> was no choice but to use whatever was available in
>> trying to set a more uniform type. We used what we
>> had to work with, which is exactly how all the breeds
>> started. It is always easy in hind sight for newer
>> breeders to look back after 40 years and criticize
>> what past breeders did. But they weren't there using
>> a limited gene pool, so I would say as to the 'Costa
>> Rican' vs. the 'Arizona' type: and your point is
>> ?????????? We're 40 years down the road now, get over
>> it!
>>
>> I find it most amusing to learn that, quoting verbatem
>> from the HSDAA website "Havanese produced under the
>> Destiny prefix were primarily AZ phenotypes as this
>> kennel had purchased dogs of 100% AZ breeding." News
>> to me, and I do recall being there! In fact, my first
>> 2 Havanese, both males, were one of each line, both
>> being very typical of each type. I later added 3 more
>> of the pure Costa Rican lines and 4 more of the
>> others, and that is what started Destiny Havanese. In
>> 1999, I was graced to have my dogs on the cover of the
>> Havanese book written by the founder of the Cuban
>> parent club, Zoila Portuondo Guerra. She apparently
>> thought the Destiny dogs were
>> of pretty good type!
>> Another statement made on the website is that the CR
>> dogs were much healthier than the AZ dogs: "the dogs
>> from the Costa Rican kindred and their immediate
>> inbred offspring apparently suffered no problems". In
>> fact, the very first Havanese diagnosed in 1991 with
>> hereditary cataracts was one of the "immediate inbred
>> offspring". At that time, Nancy Holmes (Nor-Ann) and
>> I were the first 2 breeders to test eyes. We found
>> cataracts to be distributed pretty evenly in all the
>> lines, as did the other breeders who tested eyes after
>> our discovery. It is a credit to the Havanese
>> breeders that from a high of over 15% of our Havanese
>> having hereditary cataracts in 1991, 15 years later
>> the incidence has been cut to under 2.5%, one of the
>> lowest in all breeds. (These facts from CERF.)


----------



## tejanoHavs

*Part two of Liz Vargo post*

>>
>> As to the allusion that all the dogs descending from
>> Dorothy's originals have terrible health problems, I
>> find that really really hard to believe simply because
>> I am one of the few breeders left that still has all
>> the orignal lines and my dogs routinely live to be at
>> least 15 years old, the majority living to 16 and 17
>> with a few 18 year olds (I have mostly a geriatric
>> kennel now.). I have been shocked at the few times one
>> has died at an earlier age. Not one of my Havanese
>> has ever needed to be on any kind of heart medication,
>> not even at a grand old age. The incidence of
>> patellar luxation, which initially I found in the
>> early 80's to be about 1 in 10 puppies, has been
>> drastically reduced to about 1 in ever 32 (I haven't
>> had one diagnosed with PL in 4 years). When the club
>> went into a hissy fit about all the supposed deaf
>> dogs, I BAER tested all of my 37 dogs, all were
>> normal. Now the furor over hip dysplasia. So I
>> xrayed 11 of my dogs ranging in ages from over 4 to 9
>> years old. Guess what. They all came back OFA "Good"
>> And don't even get me started about supposed
>> chondroplasia in the breed. Spending over $200,000 on
>> a flawed study group (dogs being hand-chosen sort of
>> implies the study was slanted in a certain direction)
>> proves absolutely nothing except to further the cause
>> of a certain group of people. I have found this breed
>> to be exceedingly healthy. Considering the fact that
>> we started with such a limited gene pool, and also the
>> fact that I am a big proponent of very close
>> linebreeding (you find out where your problems are
>> real fast, and you set type real fast!) I am just not
>> seeing any of those reported terrible problems. And
>> with the method of breeding that I use, they surely
>> would have manifested by now. Either that or I'm one
>> lucky breeder! And because I have been breeding for
>> 25 years, I have people coming back for their 2nd and
>> even 3rd Havanese. Surely they would not be coming
>> back if their original dogs had health problems.
>>
>> With respect to supposed changes to the standard in
>> 1989 - I have talked to many members and people who
>> have quit the club but were members at that time, and
>> none of us can remember drastic changes being made.
>> In fact the standard has been changed more times since
>> the breed was accepted into AKC than at any other time
>> in breed hisory. When the breed was accepted into the
>> miscellaneous class there was still much work to do to
>> try and standardize the breed type. I was one of
>> those who opposed and voted against going AKC, but the
>> majority of members felt differently, and that's
>> democracy at work. I was privileged to both judge and
>> spectate at the first HCA national specialty in 1999
>> and I can unequivocally say that the breed at that
>> point in time was much more standardized then than it
>> is today, and I believe it is due to all the changes
>> made to the breed in recent years. Havanese were
>> supposed to be a rectangular breed, now they approach
>> square in outline looking more like Bichons or Lowchen
>> then their own unique breed. Rather than trying to
>> breed correct short legged straight legged dogs, the
>> solution seems to be: make the legs longer. The
>> muzzles have been shortened to the point that some
>> dogs look like Shih Tzus or Maltese, with big round
>> eyes. And toplines that are INCORRECTLY higher in the
>> rear than at the withers? Where did that come from.
>> Did someone mistake a "slight rise over the loin" as
>> meaning high in the rear? Until AKC acceptance the
>> standard called for a LEVEL topline (The Cuban
>> standard calls for the spine to slope slightly TOWARDS
>> the rear by the way.) With the exception of some
>> current breeders who are holding fast to what they
>> know to be correct (and Thank God for them), I really
>> fear for this breed, what will happen to it as time
>> goes by.
>>
>> I have never undersood why certain people feel the
>> need to disparage others to promote themselves or
>> their causes. Somehow people listen to those with
>> aggressive personalities or the biggest mouths whether
>> those people are wrong or right or somewhere in
>> between. There is nothing new about a group of people
>> trying to breed a new breed of dog. It happens all
>> the time. Designer breeds have become very lucrative
>> business. As one pet owner put it to me "This whole
>> Havana Silk Dog thing seems to be an ovbvious attempt
>> to get more money for the "special" dogs within the
>> breed. It smacks of elitism, more created than in
>> acutality. Rather like a big marketing iniative".
>> Couldn't have said it better myself. Seems to me they
>> are trying to have their cake and eat it too. Stay
>> with the HCA just in case it doesn't work, split if it
>> does. The current members and board should take note
>> of the outstanding job they have done to promote their
>> 'new breed' to the public and take steps to preserve
>> the Havanese breed as it should be.
>>
>> In closing I want to thank all of the breeders and pet
>> owners (almost a hundred of you!!!)who have contacted
>> me expressing both outrage and support (I would
>> actually not known a thing about it, as I said, I'm
>> just not into club politics anymore). Please
>> understand that it is just impossible for me to
>> individually thank you (I HATE the computer!)but I do
>> so appreciate your loyalty and your loyalty to this
>> wonderful breed. I just choose not to make this a
>> battle. It's up to you guys now.

This is the end of the e-mail that was sent from Liz Vargo Tustin to a different list. I'm just passing it along. Hope it was interesting reading as it is nice to hear from someone who was actually part of the breed so many years ago!


----------



## dboudreau

Honey Poney's said:


> Can I please give a personnel oppinion without being killed for it.
> 
> Not really a personnel opinion but the opinion of a lot of European breeders.
> 
> The HSD looks more like a small Tibettan Terrier.
> 
> Sorry if I offended somebody.


Here is a Tibetan Terrier, I can see the resemblance.


----------



## juniormint

In fact, the 'Costa Rican' dogs WERE
>> generally smaller, lighter boned, and shorter backed.
>> However, they had "Maltesy-looking" heads with shorter
>> muzzles, rounder eyes, shorter ears. They were not
>> longer legged and they shared the same problems with
>> front assembly with the so called 'Arizona' Havanese.
>> The AZ dogs were larger, heavier boned, longer backed,
>> with a blockier head piece, longer muzzle,(those who
>> know me will remember I used to call them "horse
>> faced", not derogatorially!), beautiful almond eyes,
>> longer ears.

I'm not sure I want to be the type of person who believes everything from everyone, but this statement sure struck me as interesting. So perhaps there is some truth to the fact that two different breeds were bred together.


----------



## aradelat

I think it was one breed, two different types. And that was 40 years ago. As I understand it, many other lines were brought into the mix. Or am I wrong?
Whew, to my untrained eye, the Tibetan Terrier looks a lot like the Havanese, but squarer and perhaps smaller...yikes.


----------



## Julie

:biggrin1: Thank you for posting Liz's letter.I found it most enlightening....I think Liz and the other early breeders should have a round of applause for the early work they did to preserve the breed we have today....the lovely havanese.:biggrin1:


----------



## Doggie Nut

THANK YOU CHERIE for posting that so we could all read it. I feel enlightened! That is the most concise, easy to understand (atleast for someone like me!)explanation I have read through out this whole debate! I am appreciative to Liz for taking the time to post that so those of us that are newer to the breed can hear the history behind this wonderful little dog here in the USA. :yo: :clap2: :hug:


----------



## tejanoHavs

aradelat said:


> I think it was one breed, two different types. And that was 40 years ago. As I understand it, many other lines were brought into the mix. Or am I wrong?
> Whew, to my untrained eye, the Tibetan Terrier looks a lot like the Havanese, but squarer and perhaps smaller...yikes.


I have a close friend who is a well known breeder of Tibetans here in the US and I'm around her dogs a lot. A Tibetan is larger than a Havanese , but you are right that they are more square than the dog described in the Havanese standard. We will have to wait to see what the silky dog standard is like when it is published. Here are a couple of photos of adult TTs along with some people in the photo so you can see the scale that way.

I've never attached a photo here so I hope this works :wink:


----------



## Doggie Nut

Wow, the Tibetan Terrier does look like the photos of the HSD!:jaw: Thanks Cherie....they are bigger but still "look" like the HSD pics or drawing that I saw.


----------



## aradelat

Thanks. It's a beautiful dog, and very much like what I think they're trying to breed in the HSD camp...


----------



## Julie

Oh Yes,
The tibetan is big...but really beautiful!
That looks like a silky coat that would not cord,nor have the ringlets Liz described..correct?A maltese coat---it wouldn't cord either would it?A true havanese,at least dating back to Dorothy and Liz would of had a double coat with little ringlets and would cord easily---correct?


It is odd to me,and I've brought it up several times in this thread,that the havana silks came from the same foundation dogs as the havanese.......?I don't want to get anyone angry,but how could that be?


----------



## juliav

Wow, the Tibetan in full coat really does resemble a larger version of a HSD or a silky Havanese!!!


----------



## tejanoHavs

*Thanks to those who have walked this road before us!*

I agree everyone, that people like Liz Vargo, Dorothy Goodale and many others deserve our thanks and respsect for what they have given our breed. Because they aren't "plugged in" to all of the many e-lists, message boards, etc. these days it is easy for us to all make assumptions as to what may or may not have happened back in the day . And that makes it easy for us to get details entirely wrong. It is great to be able to hear from them every now and then I think.

One of my personal favorite Havanese memories happened several years ago when I finally met another one of the Havanese breed's "grand dames" at one of our national specialty shows. It was Jan Stark and although we had spoken via e-mail and phone, we had never met in person. After chatting for a few minutes, she asked me to wheel her down to the hotel bar (she was in a wheelchair at the time as she was slowing down a bit). We laughed along the way and once in the bar it was so much fun to listen to the tales of years gone by and to soak up all of the information she had for us. I always laughed about it afterwards with her as she "held court" there in the bar, educating all of us novices (that would be any of us who had been around less than her many years!):tea: Anyway, I think we should honor those who came before us, learn from them, add the best of new knowledge along the way and look to improve upon the Havanese...not split away from those origins. JMO :biggrin1:


----------



## Julie

I so agree........Thanks to those people,I get to love and be loved,by one of the greatest dogs I've ever had!And he's cute to boot!Can't go wrong with the vision the early breeders had........I see variances,but I just hope the HCA and breeders rally together to continue on with the havs.Liz says at the bottom of her letter.....it is up to you guys now.So true........


----------



## Julie

Thanks Cherie for that insight/story on early breeders.Somehow I can just picture that----how awesome!:biggrin1:


----------



## RedHeadedGator

Thank you Cherie for the information on the early breeders. In reading it, I noted that the Breeder, Nancy Holmes (Nor-Ann), was mentioned. I have one of her Hav's! My 5 year old, Zoe, is a Nor-Ann's girl and I love her to pieces


----------



## ama0722

I have met one of Liz's dogs actually! A friend I made in Columbus because we got to talking and she has a maltese and a havanese too! We knew some of the same maltese breeders but I was totally knew to havanese so she sad Liz and I had no clue who she was. Well I went and met her dogs- her Havanese is 13 years old and very healthy. She wasn't bred stock and is just a pet but it is good to see a havanese who is possible from what is being said the unhealthy lines look so healthy and not ever have anything major wrong healthwise. 

Amanda


----------



## tejanoHavs

*cording and coats*



Julie said:


> Oh Yes,
> The tibetan is big...but really beautiful!
> That looks like a silky coat that would not cord,nor have the ringlets Liz described..correct?A maltese coat---it wouldn't cord either would it?A true havanese,at least dating back to Dorothy and Liz would of had a double coat with little ringlets and would cord easily---correct?


I don't think a single, silky coat could cord. I've corded one Havanese here before and have tried to cord two others. The one who corded successfully looked wonderful and the ones who wouldn't cord never got past the flat stage where they just looked like matted masses of icky coat hanging:frusty: What was the difference? The one who did cord well had a bit more wave to her coat along with adequate undercoat. When I'm describing some of the variances in the amount of wave in Havanese coats to people, i often say some are straight, some are like a "c" curve, some are like an "s" curve and some are kinky curly. My successful cording experiment here was with a coat that was silky, with plenty of undercoat and an "s" curve.

Anyway, I've attached some photos of her so you can see her coat wet...fresh from a bath....as well as what she looked like when it was blown dry (straighter thanks to blowing it out while brushing...but the feet aren't dry and you can see some curls there). Also, I've included a photo of her in cords when she was being shown in juniors and one of her playing in the snow.

I don't personally think a true single, silky coat would cord at all.


----------



## chrismom

That is what they are talking about- types- two- or more types of the same breed. This is how it is in the early days of all breeds, not just the Havanese. One thing that some dont think about is that some people start with Havanese- Liz has excelled in several breeds over a lot of years. Her Lowchen are behind of some of the best pedigrees in the breed. In the time she was showing she bred top winning Havanese, top winning Lowchen, and long before that she had the top beagles in the country. 

Yes, early days in a breed dogs do not look like they will in the future. Look at good breed books of any breed! There are different types, etc. in the early days. Lots of different looks. There is a standard put in place for breeders to breed toward- not necesarily for what they already have, but for a goal to work toward- that is what it means by a mental image of perfection. 

THat does not mean that it is different breeds, and in fact lots of breeds in the early days do actually have some infusion of other breeds. What is the real point there? This is the normal evolution of ALL breeds, this is just how it works. Different types, working toward one goal. 

I do see most people in HAVANESE seem to be working toward the same goal. Like others have said- if someone wants to start their own breed- so be it- but this breed is the Havanese, it is not fair to bad mouth others to promote their dogs. These squarer, single coated dogs were not Havanese 20 or more years ago, so now they want their own breed, go for it, but to imply that they are healthier is unfair.

I personally know Lizs dogs, I do agree with her, they are totally healthy into old age. Liz does not and never has bred for bowed legs. Sure in the coarse of time plenty of people will get dogs with bowed legs, but that doesn't mean they wanted that. I get the feeling that some want to imply that Liz is not trying to breed away from that. I know her dogs personally- I have not seen any bred for bowed legs. Yes, in the past I have seen a couple that were never bred that did have some bowing of the legs, but so? That is how breeding works. Few dogs are show quality- that is normal. Few dogs are breeding quality- that is normal. Also, those same dogs, do not have cataracts, etc. I know for a fact that Liz has even non-breeding dogs checked for cataracts. That is how people know what is in their line, and know where to go with their plans.

As far as eyes go, I actually go with Liz twice a year to the CERF clinic and I know the good results- I am actually in the room with her!- and I also remember back 20 years ago when percentages of cataracts were bad. I know for a fact that people in the breed back then had to make lots of hard choices and their choices back then and all along are reflected on the out comes of their dogs now. I helped my son choose a bitch to lease from Liz, because I know the eye health behind her with certainty, and know the pedigree. He wants a foundation bitch that we can know the background. I am way into health issues, I would not have agreed otherwise.

My whole thought on that is - what would make anyone think that dogs coming from Cuba or anywhere where they do not have access to health testing could have better health. That makes no sense.

Also, in the early days the Havanese people didn't register dogs with bad patellas. Havanese now have wonderful patellas in comparison to other small breeds.

It is people who care about the breed long term, and stick with the breed, and test, and make decisions based on them that help the breed, not people who want a NEW breed. But thats ok- we will have Havanese- they can have their breed, and as always, go with a good breeder that does the right thing. There will be good and bad breeeders in all breeds. 

And remember- all breeds came from very different looking types. To help Havanese type, people need to agree on what that is and should be for the future and stick to that. ANyone who wants another type and another breed- go for it, but the Havanese breed will continue, and hopefully the type can get better since some of the different dogs will be leaving the breed. 

Truly bowed legs are not good- period, regardless of why they are. No one should be breeding for truly bowed legs. But some otherwise nice dogs might have a turned out foot or something, don't panic that this is a big thing. Plenty of dogs in all breeds have little imperfections that breeders try to breed away from. There appears to be a movement to make pet people panic that if the legs are not perfectly straight that their dogs will get sick.

But that brings up another point- spring of ribs. This is how much the rib cage bends outward, versus flatter ribs. Dog people and breeders usually understand this. Pet people often don't. If you have very well sprung ribs, either the legs will bow some to compensate, or if they are way straight the dog will move funny. I think this sometimes comes into play. So not all bowed legs mean something so big as they are implying. This is just basic dog anatomy that breeders understand.

Yes, the standard is asking for straight legs, and that is what people should breed for. But there is more to it than that.

One thing I think is cool out of what they are saying- soaping a dog is a good idea to get a good look, but I tried this with a few dogs, you really can make them look better or worse depending on how you set them up, so that is also no guarantee. Its a good way to look at a live dog, but as far as pictures go- it can be made to look like something different.


----------



## tejanoHavs

RedHeadedGator said:


> Thank you Cherie for the information on the early breeders. In reading it, I noted that the Breeder, Nancy Holmes (Nor-Ann), was mentioned. I have one of her Hav's! My 5 year old, Zoe, is a Nor-Ann's girl and I love her to pieces


That's nice! Nancy is a friend of mine although we only see each other at nationals and talk via e-mail mostly. It really is fun to see where your own Havanese fits in with the history of the breed.


----------



## tejanoHavs

ama0722 said:


> I have met one of Liz's dogs actually! A friend I made in Columbus because we got to talking and she has a maltese and a havanese too! We knew some of the same maltese breeders but I was totally knew to havanese so she sad Liz and I had no clue who she was. Well I went and met her dogs- her Havanese is 13 years old and very healthy. She wasn't bred stock and is just a pet but it is good to see a havanese who is possible from what is being said the unhealthy lines look so healthy and not ever have anything major wrong healthwise.
> 
> Amanda


That's good to hear! I thought it was interesting to read from Liz about her older Havs and how healthy they were and that most of her breeding stock there had lived a long life. I'm all for scientific research, but also enjoy hearing about the real life experiences.


----------



## RedHeadedGator

Cherie - I know when we got Zoe from Nancy that she was living in North Carolina and I had heard she moved. I hope all is well with her and her family. Such a wonderful and very nice lady.


----------



## tejanoHavs

*changes within breeds*



chrismom said:


> That is what they are talking about- types- two- or more types of the same breed. This is how it is in the early days of all breeds, not just the Havanese.


Wonderful post. I'm going to de-personalize this from Havanese for a minute and go back to Tibetan Terriers. Easier not to hurt feelings that way :biggrin1:

I've posted below a photo of my friend's TT who won their national specialty back in 1987....twenty years ago. Also, you will see a photo of a more current day winning TT, also owned by my friend. Interesting to see the changes in the past 20 years. More elegant, silkier coat, more extreme angles, more exaggerated neck and tail profile, etc. Sound familiar? Except, in Tibetans, they realized that this was just a breeding decision as to the style that this particular breeder wanted to work towards in her own line of TTs. Never would they have thought it was a separate breed, but rather a different style.


----------



## Suuske747

Honey Poney's said:


> .
> 
> The HSD looks more like a small Tibettan Terrier.
> 
> Sorry if I offended somebody.


I completely agree with you!

And I don't think you'd offend anyone with it, the resemblance is really striking, and it's a beautiful dog....so no reason for someone to be offended.....if they are....well, that says more about that person than you......
It's just that we get the beautiful looks and the most beautiful characters in our Hav's *grins*

Hav's are the best!!! hahahaha!!
I just really need to get that t-shirt "you wish I'd treat you like I treat my havanese" hahahahahahaha

Thank you Cherie for posting that, it was a very interesting post to read and she does make some really good points!!! and please pass on appreciation to her for making the effort to write that....


----------



## tejanoHavs

RedHeadedGator said:


> Cherie - I know when we got Zoe from Nancy that she was living in North Carolina and I had heard she moved. I hope all is well with her and her family. Such a wonderful and very nice lady.


She is doing well...here in Texas now! But since Texas is such a big state she is about a day's driving distance from me so we don't see each other in person.


----------



## Greg

tejanoHavs said:


> I don't think a single, silky coat could cord. I've corded one Havanese here before and have tried to cord two others. The one who corded successfully looked wonderful and the ones who wouldn't cord never got past the flat stage where they just looked like matted masses of icky coat hanging:frusty: What was the difference? The one who did cord well had a bit more wave to her coat along with adequate undercoat. When I'm describing some of the variances in the amount of wave in Havanese coats to people, i often say some are straight, some are like a "c" curve, some are like an "s" curve and some are kinky curly. My successful cording experiment here was with a coat that was silky, with plenty of undercoat and an "s" curve.
> 
> Anyway, I've attached some photos of her so you can see her coat wet...fresh from a bath....as well as what she looked like when it was blown dry (straighter thanks to blowing it out while brushing...but the feet aren't dry and you can see some curls there). Also, I've included a photo of her in cords when she was being shown in juniors and one of her playing in the snow.
> 
> I don't personally think a true single, silky coat would cord at all.


I think you are right. I know Keebie's cords started falling out when he moved into his adult coat. Sonic's cords started falling out when he moved into his adult coat and now Jake's cords are falling out. The silky hair next to the body just isn't strong enough to take the weight. In fact, it took me 9 mos to get the first substantial mat in Jake's coat back after the 2006 National. Based upon how long it took for Sonic's & Keebler's cords to become a problem, we probably have a little over 2 yrs before it becomes an issue. Fortunately we have a backer so Jake will go out as a Special this fall and hopefully he'll be done before his cords start coming out in mass.


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

Has anyone seen the Coton de Tulear? They are white but they resemble the Havs too i think.


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

Greg, may i ask a silly unrelated question? Why cord dogs? Is it that you just like the look or is there another reason.


----------



## Doc

*Foundation dogs...*



jillnors2 said:


> This doesn't make sense. On your website it says you have Foundation dogs, what do they look like?
> 
> It also says you need to evaluate dogs to see if they meet HSDAA requirements and that every dog that phenotypically resembles a Havana Silk Dog is NOT automatically eligible for registration. How are you deciding what phenotypically resembles a HSD if an HSD is not defined? Seems like you're putting the cart before the horse. Greg said his dogs were evaluated and they are HSD's, what 's the criteria?


Well, I know what MY foundation dog looks like. Poppy is a foundation bitch. I'm at the office now, sans pix. We have a conformation evaluation score sheet that the dogs are evaluated by...based on the standard that will be published soon.


----------



## aradelat

*thanks for the post*



chrismom said:


> That is what they are talking about- types- two- or more types of the same breed. This is how it is in the early days of all breeds, not just the Havanese. One thing that some dont think about is that some people start with Havanese- Liz has excelled in several breeds over a lot of years. Her Lowchen are behind of some of the best pedigrees in the breed. In the time she was showing she bred top winning Havanese, top winning Lowchen, and long before that she had the top beagles in the country.
> 
> Yes, early days in a breed dogs do not look like they will in the future. Look at good breed books of any breed! There are different types, etc. in the early days. Lots of different looks. There is a standard put in place for breeders to breed toward- not necesarily for what they already have, but for a goal to work toward- that is what it means by a mental image of perfection.
> 
> THat does not mean that it is different breeds, and in fact lots of breeds in the early days do actually have some infusion of other breeds. What is the real point there? This is the normal evolution of ALL breeds, this is just how it works. Different types, working toward one goal.
> 
> I do see most people in HAVANESE seem to be working toward the same goal. Like others have said- if someone wants to start their own breed- so be it- but this breed is the Havanese, it is not fair to bad mouth others to promote their dogs. These squarer, single coated dogs were not Havanese 20 or more years ago, so now they want their own breed, go for it, but to imply that they are healthier is unfair.
> 
> I personally know Lizs dogs, I do agree with her, they are totally healthy into old age. Liz does not and never has bred for bowed legs. Sure in the coarse of time plenty of people will get dogs with bowed legs, but that doesn't mean they wanted that. I get the feeling that some want to imply that Liz is not trying to breed away from that. I know her dogs personally- I have not seen any bred for bowed legs. Yes, in the past I have seen a couple that were never bred that did have some bowing of the legs, but so? That is how breeding works. Few dogs are show quality- that is normal. Few dogs are breeding quality- that is normal. Also, those same dogs, do not have cataracts, etc. I know for a fact that Liz has even non-breeding dogs checked for cataracts. That is how people know what is in their line, and know where to go with their plans.
> 
> As far as eyes go, I actually go with Liz twice a year to the CERF clinic and I know the good results- I am actually in the room with her!- and I also remember back 20 years ago when percentages of cataracts were bad. I know for a fact that people in the breed back then had to make lots of hard choices and their choices back then and all along are reflected on the out comes of their dogs now. I helped my son choose a bitch to lease from Liz, because I know the eye health behind her with certainty, and know the pedigree. He wants a foundation bitch that we can know the background. I am way into health issues, I would not have agreed otherwise.
> 
> My whole thought on that is - what would make anyone think that dogs coming from Cuba or anywhere where they do not have access to health testing could have better health. That makes no sense.
> 
> Also, in the early days the Havanese people didn't register dogs with bad patellas. Havanese now have wonderful patellas in comparison to other small breeds.
> 
> It is people who care about the breed long term, and stick with the breed, and test, and make decisions based on them that help the breed, not people who want a NEW breed. But thats ok- we will have Havanese- they can have their breed, and as always, go with a good breeder that does the right thing. There will be good and bad breeeders in all breeds.
> 
> And remember- all breeds came from very different looking types. To help Havanese type, people need to agree on what that is and should be for the future and stick to that. ANyone who wants another type and another breed- go for it, but the Havanese breed will continue, and hopefully the type can get better since some of the different dogs will be leaving the breed.
> 
> Truly bowed legs are not good- period, regardless of why they are. No one should be breeding for truly bowed legs. But some otherwise nice dogs might have a turned out foot or something, don't panic that this is a big thing. Plenty of dogs in all breeds have little imperfections that breeders try to breed away from. There appears to be a movement to make pet people panic that if the legs are not perfectly straight that their dogs will get sick.
> 
> But that brings up another point- spring of ribs. This is how much the rib cage bends outward, versus flatter ribs. Dog people and breeders usually understand this. Pet people often don't. If you have very well sprung ribs, either the legs will bow some to compensate, or if they are way straight the dog will move funny. I think this sometimes comes into play. So not all bowed legs mean something so big as they are implying. This is just basic dog anatomy that breeders understand.
> 
> Yes, the standard is asking for straight legs, and that is what people should breed for. But there is more to it than that.
> 
> One thing I think is cool out of what they are saying- soaping a dog is a good idea to get a good look, but I tried this with a few dogs, you really can make them look better or worse depending on how you set them up, so that is also no guarantee. Its a good way to look at a live dog, but as far as pictures go- it can be made to look like something different.


Thanks so much for this post. My dog's legs are bowed, but a doctor says only slightly and I hope they remain so. 
HSD folk, however, indicated he has CD and intimated he would be prey to a series of diseases that are genetically inherited.
I am interested in the ribcage thing. Are you talking about the bone between the legs in the chest that's very pronounced? Is it supposed to be pronounced? Pablo's is...


----------



## Doc

*Silk Dogs...*



Missy said:


> those are two beautiful Hav's. the top one does kind of look like the drawing on the HSD site.


The fact is that ALL of our HSDs are also AKC Havanese AT THIS TIME, and finished Champions, mostly...so it should not be a surprise that there are other Havanese that also look like Havana Silk Dogs.


----------



## Doc

*No squares here...*



chrismom said:


> Now all of a sudden there are people pushing for these coats that at one time very very incorrect in the Havanese, and also trying to make them square.
> 
> Thats just my opinion


A correction...WE are most definitely NOT trying to make our dogs square (in fact our dogs are very hip!)...the HSD, like the Havanese should be SLIGHTLY longer than tall.

As for the double/single coat issue. The Havanese coat is not, a double coat as traditionally defined by AKC...think Husky, Shepherd, etc for double coat...guard hairs and a cottony undercoat that sheds like crazy. While some Havanese (ok, maybe many) have a little variation in hair types, I think the term double coat is misleading and used incorrectly.


----------



## Dawna

Whew. I thought it was just me. I have looked at every havanese I've ever met and have yet to find that dern undercoat. :biggrin1:


----------



## chrismom

aradelat- no- that is the prosternum, that is supposed to be like that.
Spring of ribs- is like how far- and I hate to use this word here, but it is the best descriptive one I can think of right now- how far the ribs are bowed out. SOme dogs- some breeds, etc have more flat rib cage and some breeds have a different shape of rib cage. The shape a rib cage is can have a big effect on the straightness of the legs. Look at dachshunds- they have well sprung ribs, and more bowed legs to - get around - those well sprung ribs. 

Also, yes, injuries to growth plates can cause bowing of legs too. So not all bowed legs indicate all that much in a pet dog. Plenty of bowed legged mixed breeds, and pure bred dogs live absolutely normal active, healthy lives.

I honestly feel that some of these things seem more like scare tactics than real facts. Yes, breeders should not be deliberately breeding bowed legs. I have never heard of any good breeders that do. I am sure there are backyard breeders that do and wont care period, and as soon as their breed is an AKC breed and they lose control of it- they will also have those types of breeders in that breed too- that is just how it is, there are good people and bad people in everything. Also, little dfferences do not mean they are not good dogs, those are just the good pets and should not be used for breeding . That is why good breeders have spay/neuter contracts, etc.


----------



## chrismom

I have to agree about the use of double coat. I do agree, the coat is not like a husky, etc. But they also were never flat- or not supposed to be. More full. Not frizzy either. In the past the best coats were full and wavy, not flat, not straight, and not curly. I have to agree, a better wording of coat could be a good thing


----------



## Doc

*To Melissa...*



Melissa Miller said:


> I do hate to use those strong words, but yea...that is kind of how I feel right now. Im not one to play the political cards, I just say how I feel. I do not know all the things you have been through as I have not been around these dogs that long. But I do feel like the focus keeps changing. I think sometimes its the CD is the main reason...and we say HEY wait...we ALL want to breed out CD...its not like any of us WANT CD in our Havs. And as studies are shared etc...Greg posted the main reason for the breed split is LOOK. A different LOOK. So in that case...yea I have to say I feel a bit of abandonment on both counts. I dont feel like the look of the dogs is enough to require a breed split....I think it could have come to play in a different way. I know you say 7 years but we are a very NEW breed. AND maybe some people who you are with dont have the best social skills which set you back a tad.....
> 
> Sorry, Melissa, there are still people in the Havanese community, and not just the traditional dirtballs, commercial breeders, etc who believe that the Havanese are SUPPOSED to be short legged dogs and who think it's ok to breed dogs with bowed legs as long as they are not TOO bowed or crippled even though our standard calls for straight/equal legs. The look of our dogs has changed over the years as we have selected for dogs with silky coats, correct conformation (by the AKC Havanese standard) and straight legs. It's just obvious when you go to shows that there is a significant difference in 'types' of dogs shown yet there can be only one TYPE/breed.
> 
> I love my dogs, don't want either to be part of a breed who has CD or the "wrong" look. I say that because I did read a post that stated you all think the Havanese is not the "correct" look.
> 
> I don't think I said 'wrong' but different...and I think the differences are going to continue to grow...
> 
> Understand I am saying all of this and probably have a dog that is very close to your HSD. He doesn't have that cuban flaggy wavy tail you describe...( Im glad....) but my reaction isn't based on jealousy. Many who have read this thread can see I have tinkered on the edge, but I just cant get past the measures taken that I feel are a tad extreme.
> 
> The tail we are looking for is not a flaggy/wavy thing...but it is high enough to balance the high head carriage and makes for a beautiful outline. No one ever said that everyone has to prefer the Silk Dog...or the Havanese. To each, his own.


One character.


----------



## Doc

*Short legs...*



juniormint said:


> I liked the part where she wrote:
> 
> "And don't even get me started about supposed chondroplasia in the breed. Spending over $200,000 on a flawed study group"
> 
> I guess we have those who don't think we have CD in the breed. Those that don't think it is genetic. Those that think it should be treated as a trait and those that think it is a disease to be avoided.
> 
> :suspicious:


I liked the part where she says the Havanese is supposed to be a short-legged breed...she's always felt that way, BTW, cause that's what she began with.


----------



## Greg

LuvMyHavanese said:


> Greg, may i ask a silly unrelated question? Why cord dogs? Is it that you just like the look or is there another reason.


Pure ego. Nothing more. One of the top handlers in the country told me her largest client would back Jake as a Special for 2-3 yrs if I'd cord him. Being full of myself, I did.

So now the devil gets his due. Jake will go out to be campaigned heavily for the next few yrs and I'll be paying stud fees to my friends.


----------



## Honey Poney's

So sorry,
but when I read things like this :

_The Havana Silk Dog is an AKC registered Havanese
who meets the strict criteria of health, 
soundness, straight forelegs free of any "CD", a happy wonderful temperament, 
along with a beautiful silky coat. 
All Havana Silk Dogs, at this time, meet the standard of the AKC Havanese but not all Havanese
can or will meet the criteria for an Havana Silk Dog. _

it gives me a bad feeling.

It's as if the Havanese are just .........
don't know the English word, you can fill in whatever you want.

It makes me thinking about World War II when Hitler wanted to create the "UBER MENCH"

By the way, they were sure the perfect breeding people had blue eyes.

Oh,
one more question
are all HSD free of cataract ?
They don't speek of cataract anymore.


----------



## Greg

<------------------------------ is going to miss Jake:hurt:


----------



## Doc

aradelat said:


> Thanks so much for this post. My dog's legs are bowed, but a doctor says only slightly and I hope they remain so.
> HSD folk, however, indicated he has CD and intimated he would be prey to a series of diseases that are genetically inherited.
> I am interested in the ribcage thing. Are you talking about the bone between the legs in the chest that's very pronounced? Is it supposed to be pronounced? Pablo's is...


This from Chrismom??
But that brings up another point- spring of ribs. This is how much the rib cage bends outward, versus flatter ribs. Dog people and breeders usually understand this. Pet people often don't. If you have very well sprung ribs, either the legs will bow some to compensate, or if they are way straight the dog will move funny. I think this sometimes comes into play. So not all bowed legs mean something so big as they are implying. This is just basic dog anatomy that breeders understand.

When we are talking about straight legs we're referring to the forelegs and, in the Havanese, the standard calls for the elbow to be at the bottom of the chest so the foreleg is below the chest and no excuse for it to be bowed to compensate for the ribs. I've heard people say the legs have to bow to wrap around the ribs but it isn't true unless the elbow is half way up the chest as in a dwarf.


----------



## aradelat

*thank you*



chrismom said:


> aradelat- no- that is the prosternum, that is supposed to be like that.
> Spring of ribs- is like how far- and I hate to use this word here, but it is the best descriptive one I can think of right now- how far the ribs are bowed out. SOme dogs- some breeds, etc have more flat rib cage and some breeds have a different shape of rib cage. The shape a rib cage is can have a big effect on the straightness of the legs. Look at dachshunds- they have well sprung ribs, and more bowed legs to - get around - those well sprung ribs.
> 
> Also, yes, injuries to growth plates can cause bowing of legs too. So not all bowed legs indicate all that much in a pet dog. Plenty of bowed legged mixed breeds, and pure bred dogs live absolutely normal active, healthy lives.
> 
> I honestly feel that some of these things seem more like scare tactics than real facts. Yes, breeders should not be deliberately breeding bowed legs. I have never heard of any good breeders that do. I am sure there are backyard breeders that do and wont care period, and as soon as their breed is an AKC breed and they lose control of it- they will also have those types of breeders in that breed too- that is just how it is, there are good people and bad people in everything. Also, little dfferences do not mean they are not good dogs, those are just the good pets and should not be used for breeding . That is why good breeders have spay/neuter contracts, etc.


Thank you. I want to get a second Havanese but all this talk about unscrupulous breeders really scares me. I don't think the breeder I bought Pablo from is unscrupulous -- if anything, she seems to be overconcerned with things. And I understand that Pablo's bowed legs could have been caused by injury -- he is a very active dog and I feel guilty today that I might have urged him to go up and down stairs when he was too young. I also realize bowed legs can be caused by poor nutricion. He was on a diet of chicken and rice for more than two weeks because he was having digestive problems (all cleared up now.)
But the thought of CD is still in my mind. I wish there were a conclusive test for it. And I wish there were a good study to determine if it is an indication of other, more severe genetic problems.


----------



## jillnors2

> I liked the part where she says the Havanese is supposed to be a short-legged breed...she's always felt that way, BTW, cause that's what she began with.
> __________________


And according to the lovely woman who has been breeding far longer than anyone on this board, every foundation breeder's foundation dogs included many who were short legged and rectangular. She prefers keeping the integrity of the breed and having a more rectangular dog.


----------



## Julie

I would just like to know if Greg,Doc and any other HS people feel any differently after some time has passed now and you have read the thoughts of some of the "old-time" breeders,such as Liz,and anyone else I don't know.Do you feel like you should give her some credit and thanks for what she has did(Liz) in the havanese breed?It seems she has been hurt in this too...and I feel bad for that.

I honor and respect ALL of you.......I know it is because of Dorothy and Liz and others that we all have a great breed today called the havanese.It is also because we had/have good people in the HCA breeding and watching the health issues etc.

Thanks........eace:


----------



## mary c

Greg said:


> This is what the AKC says:
> 
> Double coat: An outer coat resistant to weather and protective against brush and brambles, together with an undercoat of softer hair for warmth and waterproofing. A dog with this type of coat can also be referred to as a double coat.


the akc description quoted sounds much more extreme/harsh than what we see in the Havanese for a double coat, 
"A dog with this type of coat can also be referred to as a double coat." 
it sounds like a second description from AKC, what is the first?
in the Havanese, it presents as having a heavier strand of hair that has some weight to it and length, the undercoat is very lightweight and not always as long as the heavier hair, (the undercoat is what will mat if they are not brushed and most of what comes out in the brush is the soft/light undercoat)the undecoat gives the heavier hairs some lift, it is what provides the air in the coat which provides space and therfore insulation.
so there are two (double) types of hair and the havanese double coat does provide insulation in this case for cooling more than warmth, it does not weatherproof the dog though LOL... as they get soaked to the skin, it is very different from the double coat of a Husky, Akita, etc. where the undercoat is so dense as to not let water etc. get through it...
from the Havanese standard"
"The coat is double, but without the harsh standoff guard hair and woolly undercoat usually associated with double coats. Rather, it is soft and light in texture throughout, though the outer coat carries slightly more weight. The long hair is abundant and, ideally, wavy.

Mary


----------



## Greg

I, for one, feel more energized than ever. I appreciate Liz taking the time to type all of that. I think Havanese breeders should feel a call to arms! Havanese should have short legs. I think they should breed for a double coat and more bone. I think the HCA should go back to their earlier 1989 Standard that was adopted when Liz was President of the HCA. I say if that's what a Havanese is supposed to look like, then that's what Havanese breeders should breed to.


----------



## mary c

Greg said:


> I think you are right. I know Keebie's cords started falling out when he moved into his adult coat. Sonic's cords started falling out when he moved into his adult coat and now Jake's cords are falling out. The silky hair next to the body just isn't strong enough to take the weight. In fact, it took me 9 mos to get the first substantial mat in Jake's coat back after the 2006 National. Based upon how long it took for Sonic's & Keebler's cords to become a problem, we probably have a little over 2 yrs before it becomes an issue. Fortunately we have a backer so Jake will go out as a Special this fall and hopefully he'll be done before his cords start coming out in mass.


were the dogs whose cords started falling out corded in the "quick" way that DK has described, where they mats are cut with scissors?

Mary Cane


----------



## Greg

mary c said:


> the akc description quoted sounds much more extreme/harsh than what we see in the Havanese for a double coat,
> "A dog with this type of coat can also be referred to as a double coat."
> it sounds like a second description from AKC, what is the first?


You'll have to take that up with the AKC, I just copied it from their official glossary. I'm sure one of the staff members there can help guide you to the other type of double coat in their definition. I just don't know where to find it.


----------



## jillnors2

*Foundation Dogs*



> Well, I know what MY foundation dog looks like. Poppy is a foundation bitch


Doc, don't you know what all the foundation dogs look like? Who certifies the foundation dogs? I see on the website that registration as a HSDAA foundation dog is already closed.


> I think that's something you'd have to ask the Registrar.


Will do, who is the Registrar?


----------



## mary c

mary c said:


> the akc description quoted sounds much more extreme/harsh than what we see in the Havanese for a double coat,
> "A dog with this type of coat can also be referred to as a double coat."
> it sounds like a second description from AKC, what is the first?
> in the Havanese, it presents as having a heavier strand of hair that has some weight to it and length, the undercoat is very lightweight and not always as long as the heavier hair, (the undercoat is what will mat if they are not brushed and most of what comes out in the brush is the soft/light undercoat)the undecoat gives the heavier hairs some lift, it is what provides the air in the coat which provides space and therfore insulation.
> so there are two (double) types of hair and the havanese double coat does provide insulation in this case for cooling more than warmth, it does not weatherproof the dog though LOL... as they get soaked to the skin, it is very different from the double coat of a Husky, Akita, etc. where the undercoat is so dense as to not let water etc. get through it...
> from the Havanese standard"
> "The coat is double, but without the harsh standoff guard hair and woolly undercoat usually associated with double coats. Rather, it is soft and light in texture throughout, though the outer coat carries slightly more weight. The long hair is abundant and, ideally, wavy.
> 
> Mary


test


----------



## Tom King

For reference:

From the 1963 FCI standard: *HAIR: The hair is quite flat, rather soft, forming light wispy waves at the ends of each strand.*

*from the 1997 FCI Standard: *Texture of Hair: Undercoat woolly and not very developed; it is often totally absent. The
topcoat is very long (12-18 cm in an adult dog), soft, flat or wavy and may form curly strands.

From the 1988 U.S. Standard: The Havanese is a double-coated breed with soft hair, both in outer and undercoat. The hair is very long and profuse, shown completely natural. The coat type ranges from straight to curly, the wavy coat being preferred.

Don't have them all loaded on the computer-working on it.


----------



## Greg

Keebie's were done the old fashioned way..........and took forever. Jake & Sonic's were done the speed way. I know another dog done the old fashioned way and another done the speed way........all of their cords are coming out. I just don't think a proper silky coat will cord.


----------



## Dawna

Wow Greg, you must have x-ray vision or something because you are able to read a lot more into questions and statements than the average superhero.


----------



## Greg

jillnors2 said:


> Doc, don't you know what all the foundation dogs look like? Who certifies the foundation dogs? I see on the website that registration as a HSDAA foundation dog is already closed.


I think that's something you'd have to ask the Registrar. I don't know all the Foundation dogs either...........even though I own a Foundation bitch myself.


----------



## Greg

Dawna said:


> Wow Greg, you must have x-ray vision or something because you are able to read a lot more into questions and statements than the average superhero.


Thanks Dawna. I agree I'm Super.


----------



## mary c

Greg said:


> You'll have to take that up with the AKC, I just copied it from their official glossary. I'm sure one of the staff members there can help guide you to the other type of double coat in their definition. I just don't know where to find it.


to quote the AKC description which is not relevant to a question put about the Havanese double coat, is confusing to those wanting to learn about the Havanese double coat.
the Havanese Standard states that it is different than what is usually considered a double coat...

there are two types of hair which technically makes the Hav a double coated breed,
the question was no doubt related to a double coat in a Havanese which is clearly defined in the Havnaese Standard, 
re: the quote you provided, did you mean to describe a Havanese coat in those terms?

mary


----------



## mary c

Greg said:


> Keebie's were done the old fashioned way..........and took forever. Jake & Sonic's were done the speed way. I know another dog done the old fashioned way and another done the speed way........all of their cords are coming out. I just don't think a proper silky coat will cord.


Max and Spirit's cords are beautiful to this day, (if you think cords can be beautiful >g<) we see them in person at shows regularly

Mary


----------



## Greg

I was asked the difference in a single coat and a double coat. I just used the AKC definition for a double coat.


----------



## jillnors2

*Say what????*



Greg said:


> Keebie's were done the old fashioned way..........and took forever. Jake & Sonic's were done the speed way. I know another dog done the old fashioned way and another done the speed way........all of their cords are coming out. I just don't think a proper silky coat will cord.


Then why were Keebler and Sonic shown corded and why is your dog being shown corded if a proper silky coat will not cord???

And on Keebler's web page on the Bydand Havanese site, it says "once it started to cord, Keebler's coat corded effortlessly-the cords seemed to form by themselves with little or no separating required"


----------



## Greg

mary c said:


> Max and Spirit's cords are beautiful to this day, (if you think cords can be beautiful >g<) we see them in person at shows regularly
> 
> Mary


yeah I heard their cords were great. I'm sure they are. Maybe it's because my dogs have a single coat. Who knows? :biggrin1:


----------



## mary c

mary c said:


> Max and Spirit's cords are beautiful to this day, (if you think cords can be beautiful >g<) we see them in person at shows regularly
> 
> Mary


I've stated my preference for a silky though double coat, and shown examples of my breeding,
I still do not say that those with a different coat is improper... 
from the Hav standard:
"A single, flat coat or an excessively curly coat are equally contrary to type and should be faulted. 
Disqualifications: A coarse, wiry coat. An atypical short coat on an adult dog (atypical would be a smooth, flat coat with, or without furnishings"
the only truly improper coats are coarse and siry or short on an adult dog.

Mary


----------



## Greg

jillnors2 said:


> Then why were Keebler and Sonic shown corded and why is your dog being shown corded if a proper silky coat will not cord???
> 
> And on Keebler's web page on the Bydand Havanese site, it says "once it started to cord, Keebler's coat corded effortlessly-the cords seemed to form by themselves with little or no sepa:brick: rating required"


I think they were shown corded because the standard allows for a corded dog. I can only speak for Jake. When he _finally _matted the cords began to form naturally. But a couple of years later, they begin to fall out. So I guess when Diane wrote that, the cords weren't falling out yet. Just a guess though. it's always been an ongoing debate about coat and cords. Those that like them say the proper coat will cord, those that don't like them take the other stance. It's a never ending :fencing:


----------



## Missy

Just curious-- If you are trying to perfect a dog with a silky coat why would you want to cord it? it seems counter-intuitive. Might as well get one of those other original cuban havanese with a double wavier coat...eace:


----------



## Greg

mary c said:


> I've stated my preference for a silky though double coat, and shown examples of my breeding,
> I still do not say that those with a different coat is improper...
> from the Hav standard:
> "A single, flat coat or an excessively curly coat are equally contrary to type and should be faulted.
> Disqualifications: A coarse, wiry coat. An atypical short coat on an adult dog (atypical would be a smooth, flat coat with, or without furnishings"
> the only truly improper coats are coarse and siry or short on an adult dog.
> 
> Mary


yeah I know. It took several years for us to quit fighting about our single coats and other stuff ..... when others said we didn't have Havanese, they were right all along. I give them props............they knew it before me.


----------



## Greg

Missy said:


> Just curious-- If you are trying to perfect a dog with a silky coat why would you want to cord it? it seems counter-intuitive. Might as well get one of those other original cuban havanese with a double wavier coat...eace:


Exactly! I've been trying to tell my wife that we need to just cut Jake's cords off before they fall off. Then we can show him in his beautiful silky coat. eace:


----------



## aradelat

Do puppy Havanese have a double coat? I thought they had a single "puppy coat" but I've seen puppies with what I think is a double coat. And how does a Havanese coat change from puppy to adult dog? And when?


----------



## mary c

mary c said:


> I've stated my preference for a silky though double coat, and shown examples of my breeding,
> I still do not say that those with a different coat is improper...
> from the Hav standard:
> "A single, flat coat or an excessively curly coat are equally contrary to type and should be faulted.
> Disqualifications: A coarse, wiry coat. An atypical short coat on an adult dog (atypical would be a smooth, flat coat with, or without furnishings"
> the only truly improper coats are coarse and siry or short on an adult dog.
> 
> Mary


Originally Posted by Greg 
Keebie's were done the old fashioned way..........and took forever. Jake & Sonic's were done the speed way. I know another dog done the old fashioned way and another done the speed way........all of their cords are coming out. I just don't think a proper silky coat will cord.


----------



## Greg

jillnors2 said:


> Doc, don't you know what all the foundation dogs look like? Who certifies the foundation dogs? I see on the website that registration as a HSDAA foundation dog is already closed.
> Will do, who is the Registrar?


Here you go. Let me know what the answer is

[email protected]


----------



## windfallhavs

Greg...I am a little confused. Earlier in the thread you stated you did not know a single HSD breeder who was planning to show their dogs in the havanese ring as you are a separate breed and ARBA/UKC was the way you were going. Now you are telling us you plan to special your HSD in the havanese breed ring for 2-3 years? I guess I don't understand why you would want to do that. Aren't you contradicting yourself?


----------



## havanesebyha

Hi Shannon,

You know the Cotons come in colors too like our Havanese! I looked at the Cotons before deciding on a Havanese. I love my baby girl Havanese!!!

Libby & Kohana


----------



## Melissa Miller

To Doc: When I said the tail was flaggy, I was reacting to what Greg has described. For instance here:



Greg said:


> yes the bone/meat/cartilage. It waves like a flag. The Cubans are very proud of this aspect


I was joking when I said it would knock stuff off your coffee table....

And I dont think you said wrong look, but Greg did say they did not feel the Havanese was the correct look. Sometimes when I say "you" I mean the HSD in general...sorry about the confusion.

One thing is for sure...as you stated...not everyone has to support the HSD goals. We can live in peace with whatever way we go....eace:
I still think its funny some people are not honest about which side they are trying to support. I think there are a few who might be trying to play both sides. So I admire those who are here stating openly how they feel.


----------



## havanesebyha

Thank you Cherie for posting Liz's letter - it really makes me thankful for all of our Hav's in our lives and wouldn't know what I would do without my girl! 

Libby & Kohana


----------



## chrismom

lots of contradictions if you really read and re-read this thread. 
Anyway you look at it is great to see such an emotional debate being conducted this way - so well I mean. It is good if everyone can agree to disagree. If the ones who want the HSD dogs want a new breed, then so be it, then the Havanese people can focus on what they want


----------



## miang248

*Contradictions*



> lots of contradictions if you really read and re-read this thread


yes there most certainly are. I was directed to this thread by someone on the "big" list and let me say, my lovely, rather short legged, but extremely straight, rectangular, catarac free double coated havanese with NO health problems does not look anything like the Silky dog (thank goodness-I want a Hav not a Tibetan Terrier).

I find it hilarious that forum membereace: Greg says a proper coat does not cord but is showing a dog corded. Greg, I would say your dog does NOT have a proper HSD coat. And it's apparently not a Hav if it has a single coat so what the hec is it?? LOL

Also think it's very funny that the founders of HSDAA have rewritten history. They must think we are very stupid or have very short memories or do NO research on the beloved breed. Long live the cute, little , adorable, good tempered Hav!

Also let it be known that Doc has bred dogs with CD -she even posted a picture on the big list of Elfin Pixie Dust-she may have not known it at the time but to cast shame on other breeders...No No No Just Wrong.

Long live Dorothy Goodale and Liz Vargo, the true Havanese lovers.



> should be respectful to the very people,like Liz and Dorothy who helped save the havanese breed


ABsolutely!! They have been in the breed longer than Doc Greg or anyone else on this list!
ETA:


> Greg-I just don't think a proper silky coat will cord


Then why are you cording? Because wife told me to is not an answer if a proper silky coat does NOT cord it will not cord even if wife wants it to. I want curly hair but it won't curl even if hubby wishes it. LOL.
MIA


----------



## Julie

:hail: I just think everyone even those who disagree with the HCA or the HSDAA should be respectful to the very people,like Liz and Dorothy who helped save the havanese breed :hail:.Whether they did things they agree with or disagree with doesn't matter,because the facts are the same.I do not like to hear or see of someone disrespecting the older breeders/people.It is kinda like bashing your Grandma or something.....tacky.From everyone something can be learned....I think you all need to remember you wouldn't have the dog you have today if it wasn't for the very people you are putting down.Think about it..:brick: ..no havanese....no new breed havana silkseace:


----------



## chrismom

Well said Julie!!!!!!


----------



## havanesebyha

Julie, very nicely put - thank you and I totally agree with your thinking! 

Libby


----------



## LuvMyHavanese

havanesebyha said:


> Hi Shannon,
> 
> You know the Cotons come in colors too like our Havanese! I looked at the Cotons before deciding on a Havanese. I love my baby girl Havanese!!!
> 
> Libby & Kohana


Im sorry for the misinformation. I have only seen them in white. Thanks for correcting me!!


----------



## dboudreau

Julie said:


> :hail: I just think everyone even those who disagree with the HCA or the HSDAA should be respectful to the very people,like Liz and Dorothy who helped save the havanese breed :hail:.Whether they did things they agree with or disagree with doesn't matter,because the facts are the same.I do not like to hear or see of someone disrespecting the older breeders/people.It is kinda like bashing your Grandma or something.....tacky.From everyone something can be learned....I think you all need to remember you wouldn't have the dog you have today if it wasn't for the very people you are putting down.Think about it..:brick: ..no havanese....no new breed havana silkseace:


This deserves to be repeated. eace: :clap2:


----------



## Greg

windfallhavs said:


> Greg...I am a little confused. Earlier in the thread you stated you did not know a single HSD breeder who was planning to show their dogs in the havanese ring as you are a separate breed and ARBA/UKC was the way you were going. Now you are telling us you plan to special your HSD in the havanese breed ring for 2-3 years? I guess I don't understand why you would want to do that. Aren't you contradicting yourself?


yeah it's a part of the human condition.


----------



## mary c

"_I think you all need to remember you wouldn't have the dog you have today if it wasn't for the very people you are putting down.Think about it.."_

AMEN! it is using people and their work as stepping stones and then discarding and trashing them...


----------



## Greg

Melissa Miller said:


> And I dont think you said wrong look, but Greg did say they did not feel the Havanese was the correct look.


What I said was I didn't feel the Havanese was the correct look for the original dog of cuba.


----------



## Greg

chrismom said:


> lots of contradictions if you really read and re-read this thread.
> Anyway you look at it is great to see such an emotional debate being conducted this way - so well I mean. It is good if everyone can agree to disagree. If the ones who want the HSD dogs want a new breed, then so be it, then the Havanese people can focus on what they want


Exactly. Bump to the top!


----------



## Doc

*Registrar...*



jillnors2 said:


> Will do, who is the Registrar?


That would be Kay Rodgers who used to be registrar for HCA back in the 'old days'.


----------



## mary c

Quote:
Originally Posted by windfallhavs 
Greg...I am a little confused. Earlier in the thread you stated you did not know a single HSD breeder who was planning to show their dogs in the havanese ring as you are a separate breed and ARBA/UKC was the way you were going. Now you are telling us you plan to special your HSD in the havanese breed ring for 2-3 years? I guess I don't understand why you would want to do that. Aren't you contradicting yourself?

yeah it's a part of the human condition.
__________________
www.sedosohavanese.com "

and definitely part of the HSDAA... many contradiction on the pages of the website... while saying the association is taking a stand, it doesn't seem there is courage and conviction enough to take the stand and stay on point.


----------



## miang248

double post sorry


----------



## Doc

*Coffee table...*



Melissa Miller said:


> To Doc: When I said the tail was flaggy, I was reacting to what Greg has described. For instance here:
> 
> I was joking when I said it would knock stuff off your coffee table....
> 
> And I dont think you said wrong look, but Greg did say they did not feel the Havanese was the correct look. Sometimes when I say "you" I mean the HSD in general...sorry about the confusion.
> 
> One thing is for sure...as you stated...not everyone has to support the HSD goals. We can live in peace with whatever way we go....eace:
> I still think its funny some people are not honest about which side they are trying to support. I think there are a few who might be trying to play both sides. So I admire those who are here stating openly how they feel.


Our first dog was a Golden...been there DONE that with the stuff flying off the coffee table...grin. He was JUST the perfect height to clear the table with one wag!


----------



## miang248

*"Old days"*



Doc said:


> That would be Kay Rodgers who used to be registrar for HCA back in the 'old days'.


I guess the "old days" is a month ago today ! LOL because kay sent breeder referrals for HCA a month ago. Time flies when you're having fun.eace:


----------



## Doc

*Registrar...*



miang248 said:


> I guess the "old days" is a month ago today ! LOL because kay sent breeder referrals for HCA a month ago. Time flies when you're having fun.eace:


Kay was breeder referral coordinator for HCA until last week but not the registrar. When you are in AKC you no longer have a registrar. I'm talking about those really GOOD old days, before AKC.


----------



## miang248

*Hmmm*

Doc, Are you currently showing dogs AKC? And if so, why?
Thank You
Mia


----------



## Tom King

In trying to sort out the Havanese history in the U.S......Does anyone know the date that the OHC (Original Havanese Club) split off from the HCA or any details about that split? The HCA website says the HCA started in 1979 so I'm going on assumption that is correct.

Also is the OHC Standard the same as the UKC Standard and does anyone know how many times that has been changed since the OHC/HCA split?

It's amazing how many versions of Havanese history I've read today and now I'm wishing I had saved all them to a folder.

Thanks,


----------



## Greg

Well the tone has changed and even though we got to 100 pages...........I think it's time for me to go. I don't want to be the cause of this list turning into something you'd find on yahoo.

Before I make it a permanent break, I'll check my PMs a couple of times in case someone wants my email. I've made some cool new friends here.....super nice people I am so glad are a part of my life (you know who you are). 

I wish all of you the best of luck. May God bless you and keep you and your Havs safe.


----------



## Julie

Greg,
Thank you for answering all our questions.......The one thing I can tell you about me..we may have sparred abit,but I would be the first person to walk up to you on the street and give you a hug!:hug:
You taught me about the HS....made me laugh a little,and cry a little.I still think you have beautiful havs,whether their silky or not!eace:


----------



## miang248

*More confusion*



> Well the tone has changed and even though we got to 100 pages...........I think it's time for me to go.


That's your decision but to bail when people ask educated questions about the HSDAA and ask for explanations about obvious contradictions seems like the easy way.
Peace.


----------



## mary c

"Originally Posted by chrismom 
...If the ones who want the HSD dogs want a new breed, then so be it, then the Havanese people can focus on what they want "

"originally posted by Greg
Exactly. Bump to the top!
__________________
www.sedosohavanese.com"

if a new and different breed is what the goal is, why not a new and different name ? 
 
why choose a name that is synonymous with the Havanese?
:juggle: 

the UKC standard describes it as "also known as the Havana Silk Dog" and many HCA as well as Canadian and European breeders and educational sites refer to the Havanese as being known as the Havana Silk Dog.
:yo: 

Mary Cane 
Moorea Havanese


----------



## Julie

Mary,
I also do not know why and have questioned in this thread why Havana silk?Seems like they could come up with a totally different breed/totally different name like cuban bichon or silky cuban or ?eace:


----------



## Doc

*No.*



miang248 said:


> Doc, Are you currently showing dogs AKC? And if so, why?
> Thank You
> Mia


I have no shows entered and no plans to do so...I do plan to continue with Rally which is not breed specific and Pearlie wants an RN title.

And, I agree with Greg...it's time for us to go. And it's not because people are asking intelligent questions. There is simply no point in continuing an increasingly antagonistic conversation. We do not have to defend ourselves to you (that's the generic you, not the 'you' you) nor justify our decisions to those who choose to remain with the Havanese. We're leaving, that means leaving and gone.

It really doesn't matter what we say anyhow...you will believe what you choose to believe. I thought it very interesting how Liz's post was taken as 'gospel' despite the obvious inaccuracies (as in the standard's been changed more since we went AKC than before...totally wrong) and simply accepted on blind faith. No one else noticed that Liz STILL thinks that the Havanese should have short legs despite our current standard? Frankly, I think Liz should be on the new standard committee...how about a movement to draft her? Absolutely serious here...she's an icon, honor and respect her, put her back in charge...it'd be great. Liz did wonderful things with her Havanese...she's been through some hell, too...kennel fire, lost a bunch of dogs, parvo outbreak, she lost another bunch of dogs, but she persevered and is still here breeding Havanese. That is a track record and that is what HCA needs now. :focus: That's all, folks!


----------



## RedHeadedGator

Doc - A very BIG thanks to you and Greg for hanging around as long as you did and answering so many questions. I have learned a lot from you both. :wave:


----------



## Honey Poney's

Excuse me but the world is bigger than the United States.

There are Havanese breeders on other places of the world to.

FCI standard:
GENERAL APPEARANCE : The Havanese is a sturdy little dog, low on his legs, with long abundant hair, soft and preferably wavy. His movement is lively 
and elastic.

The relation between the length of the body (measured from the point of the shoulder to the point of the buttock) and the height at the withers is of 4/3.

And that's how it started in the US to.
Later they just left it out the standard.

Christine


----------



## Tom King

That's sort of correct. The quote is from the 1997 FCI Standard and is some different from the 1963 Standard.

"Low on leg" was added to the 1997 FCI standard after the standard in the U.S. had been changed several times. The paintings of Queen Victoria's Havanese (or whatever they were called then) do not show a dog low on leg.

One real problem in all the standard changes is the question of where did it all start.


----------



## mary c

Julie said:


> Mary,
> I also do not know why and have questioned in this thread why Havana silk?Seems like they could come up with a totally different breed/totally different name like cuban bichon or silky cuban or ?eace:


well, it is an intelligent question, very basic reallyi and to the heart of the issue of wanting to have a new breed but take the Havanese identiy which has so many Havanese people concerned,

sure would like to hear why it's necessary to have a name that is an alternative name for the Havanese for a new breed.

Mary


----------



## Thumper

On the name change to Havana Silk, I think it will cause some confusion to new puppy buyers, I mean...it is listed on SO many sites as an alternative name, like Wikepedia, etc.

Honey Poney, I have also wondered the same thing...how this would effect breeders in the rest of the world, I don't see how a new breed can be created just in America and not exist in other countries...especially Cuba. **scratches head**I don't see how the AKC cannot take this into account. I plan on asking my friend that has a legislative position there..... Not all Americans are oblivious to the rest of the world! XOXO I promise! I've travelled alot, and I know Americans have a bad rep in alot of places for being......ehh..."self centered".  Its a shame, because there are alot of us that do care and *think* on a global level.

Kara


----------



## Suuske747

Thumperlove said:


> Honey Poney, I have also wondered the same thing...how this would effect breeders in the rest of the world, I don't see how a new breed can be created just in America and not exist in other countries...especially Cuba. **scratches head**I don't see how the AKC cannot take this into account. I plan on asking my friend that has a legislative position there..... Not all Americans are oblivious to the rest of the world! XOXO I promise! I've travelled alot, and I know Americans have a bad rep in alot of places for being......ehh..."self centered".  Its a shame, because there are alot of us that do care on a global level.
> 
> Kara


Kara, you and honeyponey make a very good point.....the whole thing is just
















and don't worry, I am working in an international environment here, I have met the "self-centered" US citizens, but I have also met a lot of US-citizens young and old with global awareness, I know they exist! I have seen living proof









:focus:

it would be really interesting to find out how the non-u.s. organisations are going to respond....are they going to laugh their heads of about these "silly americans" (no offense!) and stick to their vision? or will they follow like puppies because the "big leader" said so?


----------



## Julie

Doc,
Thanks for joining us on this forum and for what you have did for the havanese breed as well.:hail: :hug:
Stop by once in a while and post a picture and a smilie!:tea: :becky:


----------



## mckennasedona

I guess this thread will be put to bed now. I appreciate Greg answering everyone's questions. He stuck in far longer than I thought he would and I give him lots of credit. I didn't notice a huge change in tone, but hey, it's their choice. 

Who knows what will happen down the road. Either Dianne Klumb will be able to claim the title of founder of the Havana Silks or she won't. It's up to the AKC. No one knows what will happen when they get lots of members. Any time a community grows to a certain point, disagreements happen and different visions come up? All along it has been said that there are those in the Hav community who believe curved legs are okay but not once, on any list I have read, has anyone come out and said, "Yes, I believe that curved legs are okay and I am breeding Havs with curved legs." Every single breeder (and granted between the varied lists it hasn't been that many) has said they are breeding away from CD. No one has ever once mentioned which breeders do breed CD. Are they afraid of lawsuits if they do name names? If they are correct and someone is breeding CD, and believes its okay, then being named wouldn't be that big of a deal would it? After all, you'd only be stating a truth. If you believe in something, stand up for it. If they are talking about the puppy mill Hav breeders then those "breeders" will do what they want regardless and should not be considered in the discussion.

My thought is, if it takes a trained eye to tell the difference between a Havanese and a Havanasilk then the differences are not that great and might have been resolved within the breed. That would take everyone working together and apparently, within the HCA, that stopped happening a long time ago. It's a shame because its become about people and personalities instead of the dogs.

Either way, I wish them well but I will stick with my Havanese. They are everything we could want in a dog and more.

Susan


----------



## tehashavanese

juliav said:


> Mary and Greg,
> 
> The four dogs you posted are all stunning and in my totally untrained eye, while there are diffierences, they are not enough to start a new breed. I have no idea why I feel so sad about the split, as I am just a pet owner, but I do.


The split of Nowich Terriers in 1979 into two breeds, the Norwich Terrier and the Norfolk Terrier, was based on one having an erect ear and the other having a folded ear.

sh


----------



## tehashavanese

miang248 said:


> Doc, Are you currently showing dogs AKC? And if so, why?
> Thank You
> Mia


I am.

Because when I go to an AKC show, my dogs are "Havanese"

And someday, they will be Havana Silk Dogs.

sh


----------



## irnfit

I think quite a few people have questioned the taking of the name Havana Silk Dog. Every piece of literature I have read, describes the Havanese as aso being called the Havana Silk Dog. 

So I guess what they are truly saying is that it really is a Havanese, just bred to a different "type" than the Havanese, so they will call it Havana Silk Dog = Havanese??????


----------



## chrismom

Just had to reply to this- about DOc saying what Liz thinks about short legs. When was the last time you were at her house????

Well, I was there just a few days ago--- I'll have to get a new camera (mine just died) so that i can post some pictures of the dogs- not short legs. What Liz was talking about was the older standard, and then someone else just said that is what FCI says. I do know that a long time ago, way before AKC recognition they were more short legged in general. I personally do not prefer them like that. I think in general Liz might sometimes prefer some a little longer than I do, but not as long as they used to be. TO look at her current dogs- they are not short legged, and certainly not bow legged like I feel they are trying to imply. It is just amazing how people say things but yet don't really know. I have been there recently, in fact just the other day. 

They should not have long legs, like some pictures sure seem to show, making them a taller, squarer dog. I have seen dogs supposed to be Havanese at shows that look like this silk dog breed they are talking about that actually look taller than long, seems like those people must have took it too far that direction.

We got our foundation dogs from Liz and I personally do not like the older longer type, so I wanted dogs that were rectangular and with good HAVANESE outline, but not long. I wanted not only a puppy like that but wanted to know it had parents and grandparents like that too. No problem, I know all the relatives, and know these things about them. AND they are from Liz, so thats how it is, and things that feel to be implied about them are not true. (also- none of the relatives are bow legged, or have cataracts, etc,)


----------



## mary c

mckennasedona said:


> I guess this thread will be put to bed now. I appreciate Greg answering everyone's questions. He stuck in far longer than I thought he would and I give him lots of credit. I didn't notice a huge change in tone, but hey, it's their choice.
> 
> Who knows what will happen down the road. Either Dianne Klumb will be able to claim the title of founder of the Havana Silks or she won't. It's up to the AKC. No one knows what will happen when they get lots of members. Any time a community grows to a certain point, disagreements happen and different visions come up? All along it has been said that there are those in the Hav community who believe curved legs are okay but not once, on any list I have read, has anyone come out and said, "Yes, I believe that curved legs are okay and I am breeding Havs with curved legs." Every single breeder (and granted between the varied lists it hasn't been that many) has said they are breeding away from CD. No one has ever once mentioned which breeders do breed CD. Are they afraid of lawsuits if they do name names? If they are correct and someone is breeding CD, and believes its okay, then being named wouldn't be that big of a deal would it? After all, you'd only be stating a truth. If you believe in something, stand up for it. If they are talking about the puppy mill Hav breeders then those "breeders" will do what they want regardless and should not be considered in the discussion.
> 
> My thought is, if it takes a trained eye to tell the difference between a Havanese and a Havanasilk then the differences are not that great and might have been resolved within the breed. That would take everyone working together and apparently, within the HCA, that stopped happening a long time ago. It's a shame because its become about people and personalities instead of the dogs.
> 
> Either way, I wish them well but I will stick with my Havanese. They are everything we could want in a dog and more.
> 
> Susan


one of the reasons not to name breeders of dogs with CD (as they define it) is they would have to list themselves among them.

their breeding choices have included dogs with less than perfect fronts.

one cannot deny that sire and dam with straight legs have produced bowed legged offspring (I don't know if they were medically dx'd as CD) and sire and dam with bowed legs have produced straight legged offspring.
what these offspring will produce and their offspring will produce, only time will tell.

you have correctly pointed out, NO breeder has stood up and said YES I want to breed dogs with bowed legs or CD.

the same has happened with cataracts...
I am NOT saying breed dogs with bowed fronts, I am NOT saying breed dogs with Cataracts:ear: 
eace:

we know the routine, they are breeding away... 
so is every other responsible breeder out there,

I AM saying that breeders all make the choices that they hope will be effective and produce healthy beautiful Havanese, (excluding commercial kennels/puppy/mills who breed and produce for profit alone)

so be it, it will take many generations to prove the outcome of decisions made now-
to know whether decisions being made have done away with issues or have increased the expression of other even potentially worse issues 
if we have the staying power and are around long enough, time will tell :grouphug: :grouphug: 
without the genetic markers and a mode of inheritance to base decisions on, there is no certainty in any choice,

there is no good reason to point fingers at others, (especially those who entrusted others with information), and/or to make open or veiled accusations that others purposely bred to create unhealthy dogs.

There is a very hopeful outlook in the HCA now, that without the tension that has been a festering problem of late which has come to a head and hopefully can now heal,
that it will be a club for and about the dogs we all love now (we who are proud to call them Havnese).
HAVANESE - the original and true Cuban dog :drum:

Of course not to appear naive, it is a fact that in any dog club or other organization there is always the temptation for those who lust after personal glory to attempt to use power and control to focus on personal goals rather than the good of the breed and the club, and it can happen again,
but there is a hopeful looking to the future and lessons learned from the past to guide the Havanese Club of America.

:thumb:


----------



## marbenv

So, just as Doc said in the beginning, they (HCA) should be rejoicing that they(HSD) left. Now both clubs can go about there own business without the in-fighting. And everyone should be happy and we can put this thread to bed.

Good-night.

M.


----------



## irnfit

I think what we need now is guidance as pet owners on how we can help keep our Havanese as a better breed. Most of us are not breeders or show people. Our dogs are companion dogs, but I don't want to see the demise of these dogs because of what's been stated in these posts as well as on the big list, and most of all the HSDAA website. 

Should we start a letter writing campaign to the HCA and/or AKC? Sould we ask for a tighter standard, more or better testing requirements, etc???

I am sure that others would like to know what to do. So if anyone has any ideas, info, let us know.


----------



## Melissa Miller

This thread is only a beginning of many to come. I don't think the subject will be put to bed for a long time. 

Michele, thats a great question and one for a new thread. For those of us wanting to continue to better the breed we have, what are the steps now? 
With so many influential people leaving, it is a rebuilding process. I can start one, which will be based on the Havanese, not the debate on the separation. That can continue here. 

I go back and forth constantly on my feelings about this. I have friends on both sides. That doesn't mean I waver on my opinion of the split, I still don't agree. However, is it going to become a civil war in the breed?
I told a friend of mine you can't be a ******* fan and a Cowboy fan...it just doesn't fly. However I have friends who are Redskins fans, but we come close to killing each other during the games. They don't dress in Cowboy uniforms though, so at least we know who they are. I think this split, for whatever reason has become a competition. I can deal with anyone, and maybe even have a beer with them, however I want to know what jersey they are wearing. 

I know I think weird...but thats how I am.

OFF TOPIC...Michele, LOVE your new avatar...how cute are they?????


----------



## Julie

I also would like to know what we can do as pet owners to help the hav breed continue on.I read on the yahoo group about contacting the AKC with the concerns/uproar this has caused with pet owners--the accusations or insinuations that our dogs are sick/plagued with illness etc.Is this a good idea?If Melissa you are going to start a new thread,I think that would be great....
Thank you.
eace:


----------



## Melissa Miller

I will try to soon. If someone else would be so inclined.. that would be great!!!  I promised myself no more posting after wine...so I am being good. 

This one doesnt count.


----------



## judith

oh, oh, you too melissa?


----------



## chrismom

I totally see what you are saying Melissa. 
One thought I have had in reading all of this is- one goal should always be to help judges do the best job in judging whatever breed they are judging, and we often hear of the different types being confusing to the judges- ok , so now these people are admitting thier dogs are different and say they want to start a whole new breed- well that is good, but if they are still showing in the Havanese ring then in my opinion, that is unfair to the judges. Already some judges have come to beleive that this type is a correct Havanese, so now that they do not want this type to be a Havanese- then what should the judges think?

I'm having a hard time putting that thought into words this early in the morning- but hopefully you get my drift?

Maybe now would be a great time for the HCA to get the standard tweaked a little, get everyone that are Havanese people to agree on what they should have, get a new, good Judges Ed. program in place, then actually make the whole split thing known to judges, and let them know what is a Havanese. That would help make the Havanese ring better for Havanese, and also encourage the non-Havanese folks to stay out of the Havanese ring and show in a venue that is for their breed if that is what they are actually wanting. 

If they want a different breed- then say so, say who you are, make a decision. If it will ever be or become two breeds then there has to be enough difference between the two to make it clear that they are different, and anyone that is sitting on the fence and not deciding what they are (this only applies to breeders at this point) will make them have dogs that are correct for neither breed. They will have to decide- one or the other- you can't have it both ways- or you will not have a good example of ether breed.


----------



## juniormint

irnfit said:


> I think quite a few people have questioned the taking of the name Havana Silk Dog. Every piece of literature I have read, describes the Havanese as aso being called the Havana Silk Dog.


There are also numerous places that say the havanese comes from the Blanquito de la Habana (also called Havana Silk Dog - *a now extinct breed*).

There might be enough information on either side of this argument to make it null.


----------



## juniormint

chrismom said:


> Just had to reply to this- about DOc saying what Liz thinks about short legs. When was the last time you were at her house????


She wrote this in her email to the showforum:

Rather than trying to
breed *correct short legged *straight legged dogs, the
solution seems to be: make the legs longer. The
muzzles have been shortened to the point that some
dogs look like Shih Tzus or Maltese, with big round
eyes.

I think Doc only took Liz at her word.


----------



## juniormint

mckennasedona said:


> I guess this thread will be put to bed now. I appreciate Greg answering everyone's questions. He stuck in far longer than I thought he would and I give him lots of credit. I didn't notice a huge change in tone, but hey, it's their choice.
> 
> Who knows what will happen down the road. Either Dianne Klumb will be able to claim the title of founder of the Havana Silks or she won't. It's up to the AKC. No one knows what will happen when they get lots of members. Any time a community grows to a certain point, disagreements happen and different visions come up? All along it has been said that there are those in the Hav community who believe curved legs are okay but not once, on any list I have read, has anyone come out and said, "Yes, I believe that curved legs are okay and I am breeding Havs with curved legs." Every single breeder (and granted between the varied lists it hasn't been that many) has said they are breeding away from CD. No one has ever once mentioned which breeders do breed CD. Are they afraid of lawsuits if they do name names? If they are correct and someone is breeding CD, and believes its okay, then being named wouldn't be that big of a deal would it? After all, you'd only be stating a truth. If you believe in something, stand up for it. If they are talking about the puppy mill Hav breeders then those "breeders" will do what they want regardless and should not be considered in the discussion.
> 
> My thought is, if it takes a trained eye to tell the difference between a Havanese and a Havanasilk then the differences are not that great and might have been resolved within the breed. That would take everyone working together and apparently, within the HCA, that stopped happening a long time ago. It's a shame because its become about people and personalities instead of the dogs.
> 
> Either way, I wish them well but I will stick with my Havanese. They are everything we could want in a dog and more.
> 
> Susan


This isn't true. Doc called out several people for breeding CD dogs on the showforum. Why don't you go to the showforum and see who Doc says breeds CD dogs. It may give you insight into some of the posts on this forum as well.


----------



## juniormint

irnfit said:


> I think what we need now is guidance as pet owners on how we can help keep our Havanese as a better breed. Most of us are not breeders or show people. Our dogs are companion dogs, but I don't want to see the demise of these dogs because of what's been stated in these posts as well as on the big list, and most of all the HSDAA website.
> 
> Should we start a letter writing campaign to the HCA and/or AKC? Sould we ask for a tighter standard, more or better testing requirements, etc???
> 
> I am sure that others would like to know what to do. So if anyone has any ideas, info, let us know.


I think the onus is on the HSDAA. They have to prove it is a seperate breed. If they can, to the satisfaction of the AKC, they'll be a new breed. I think if the HCA says they are not a seperate breed, then the AKC will ask why the dogs are so different? If the Standard is tightened up in favor of the HSDs to be able to keep them in, then what does it say about the other dogs? And if it is tightened up to exclude the HSDs, then doesn't it make is easier for the HSDs to say they are a different breed? I think it should be business as ususual. Forget the HSDAA and move on. Havanese people cannot do a thing to influence the outcome, and why would we? What do we have to gain? Just to force people to stay (who don't want to belong)? Why? Maybe the people who want to force the issue on the HSDAA just like fighting more than anything. Because to me there isn't a reason to fight.

Having said that, maybe as a peace gesture, the HCA could ask the HSDAA to change their name to Cuban Silk Dogs or something. Maybe that would hurt less.


----------



## irnfit

Barb, I agree that the HSDAA needs to prove their dogs are different. However, they are doing it at the detriment of the Havanese. Just read all the negativity on their website. It really does make the Havanese sound like a sick, crippled little dog. That is why I feel we need to be proactive for our breed. 

I am not a breeder or a show person, but thought that someday I might. I want to know that the Havanese is still out there if and when I decide to go ahead with my dream of breeding these amazing dogs. Also, if I plan to show, I want a standard that is better for the breed as well as for the judges to get a grip on. Did I make any sense at all? Just trying to express my feelings.

eace:

PS - Thanks Melissa. It was time for an update. I love my smiling babies.


----------



## SMARTY

I would suggest to the HCA to rework their website. There is too much that is negative about the breed, not enough positive. If I were looking and saw both sites, I would buy the HSD.


----------



## Julie

If anyone has any suggestions on what we can do to postively move forward with the havanese breed-----we would like to hear them.We started a new thread called"moving forward" in the general discussion section.We have people wanting to help if we have a direction...
Thank you!eace:


----------



## whitBmom

Barb, its great to get a name behind the real Juniormint - welcome 

I partly agree with you when you say to just let them be their own entity if they so desire - I am all for that as we are aloud free choice and thought. As for freedom of speech, I am all for that as long as it is not slanderous or even demeaning. I think that is where some have actually gone wrong, by stating that the HSD is the only true cuban dog and that our havanese is full of disease and deformity - I can't help but take that a bit personal. Other than that for me its not an issue, as I am a believer in following your dreams.


----------



## irnfit

Smarty, I agree. If you look at HCA, it seems that you are buying a dog with a lot of health problems. The HSDAA site makes it look like their dogs have no health problems whatsoever. 

While the health issues need to be addressed, I think they shouldn't sound so alarming. When I was researching, I was a little turned off by all the health issues until I asked a lot of questions, and read some books. But how many people aren't doing the required research and just stay away from the breed
(maybe not a bad thing, more puppies for us. :biggrin1: )


----------



## Melissa Miller

juniormint said:


> This isn't true. Doc called out several people for breeding CD dogs on the showforum. Why don't you go to the showforum and see who Doc says breeds CD dogs. It may give you insight into some of the posts on this forum as well.


Just because Doc called out several people on yahoo..does not make it true. Several people have called her out for things that are not true also.


----------



## Melissa Miller

juniormint said:


> I think the onus is on the HSDAA. They have to prove it is a seperate breed. If they can, to the satisfaction of the AKC, they'll be a new breed. I think if the HCA says they are not a seperate breed, then the AKC will ask why the dogs are so different? If the Standard is tightened up in favor of the HSDs to be able to keep them in, then what does it say about the other dogs? And if it is tightened up to exclude the HSDs, then doesn't it make is easier for the HSDs to say they are a different breed? I think it should be business as ususual. Forget the HSDAA and move on. Havanese people cannot do a thing to influence the outcome, and why would we? What do we have to gain? Just to force people to stay (who don't want to belong)? Why? Maybe the people who want to force the issue on the HSDAA just like fighting more than anything. Because to me there isn't a reason to fight.
> 
> Having said that, maybe as a peace gesture, the HCA could ask the HSDAA to change their name to Cuban Silk Dogs or something. Maybe that would hurt less.


This is a great post! And I agree! I do think we should focus our energy on our breed and move forward. If anything maybe all this controversy has brought some weaknesses in the Havanese and HCA to light and we can work to correct that. I have never been on the stance that everything Doc and the others were saying about the problems with our breed were not true, I just thought leaving was not right.

So lets really try to work on improving the weaknesses in our breed. 
Thanks for starting a new thread Julie.... :whoo:


----------



## mckennasedona

> Just because Doc called out several people on yahoo..does not make it true. Several people have called her out for things that are not true also.


Thanks Melissa. 
It's true that she did call out certain names on a Yahoo list (I'm not on the show forum but I believe it showed up on the big Hav list) but most of those folks responded and said NO, I'm not breeding curved legs. My point, and I probably made it badly, is that they are saying there are breeders who think it is okay to breed CD. The breeders she named, at least the ones from whom I saw a response, said NO, so obviously they don't think its okay. Where are those who think its okay?? (Rhetorical question.....no response necessary).

Susan


----------



## marjrc

Tom wrote: *"from the 1997 FCI Standard: Texture of Hair: Undercoat woolly and not very developed; it is often totally absent. The
topcoat is very long (12-18 cm in an adult dog), soft, flat or wavy and may form curly strands.

From the 1988 U.S. Standard: The Havanese is a double-coated breed with soft hair, both in outer and undercoat. The hair is very long and profuse, shown completely natural. The coat type ranges from straight to curly, the wavy coat being preferred. "*

*** Thanks, Tom! This confirms what is the case with my Sammy (from a Hungarian breeder) and with Ricky (a Cdn. breeder). I have been questioning Sammy's standard since we got him at 7 months, but he has his papers and is a totally purebred Hav according to his breeder. He looks so different than Ricky that it takes a LOT of convincing when people see them together. sigh.... Sammy is actually right on with the FCI standard according to this quote and Ricky is bang on with the AKC standard.

I have seen Tibetan Terriers in person, at dog shows, and if it weren't for their much bigger size, I'd swear they were Havs. They are gorgeous and a breed I had considered before choosing the Havanese. Their size and slight difference in temperament changed my mind. I can't handle a bigger dog than 15 lbs. or so. The pics of the TT's shown here are stunning! Thanks for showing those. 

I've seen a few Cotons too and I can tell you that they don't have the same spring in their step as the Havs do. They walk straighter and their tail isn't waving about, high in the air. Their eyes are a bit rounder too and their hair is 'poofier'. O.k...... not very scientific, but these are the differences I've seen with my very amateur eye.  Again, it was a breed I considered getting, but personality of a Coton wasn't as ideal as the Hav is. For us anyway.

Chrismom wrote:* "Maybe now would be a great time for the HCA to get the standard tweaked a little, get everyone that are Havanese people to agree on what they should have, get a new, good Judges Ed. program in place, then actually make the whole split thing known to judges, and let them know what is a Havanese. That would help make the Havanese ring better for Havanese, and also encourage the non-Havanese folks to stay out of the Havanese ring and show in a venue that is for their breed if that is what they are actually wanting.

If they want a different breed- then say so, say who you are, make a decision. If it will ever be or become two breeds then there has to be enough difference between the two to make it clear that they are different, and anyone that is sitting on the fence and not deciding what they are (this only applies to breeders at this point) will make them have dogs that are correct for neither breed. They will have to decide- one or the other- you can't have it both ways- or you will not have a good example of ether breed."*

*** Yup, have to agree with this. Well said.


----------



## juniormint

I think it's obvious the dogs already look different. The question is, do they look different enough to convince the AKC. When I look at the other breeds that have split I have to guess the HSDs are different enough to split even if we don't want them too. Has anyone thought of going further than my last post about the Cuban thing? Maybe this would work better if the HCA pledged to help them and the HSDAA would change their name in return. That's win-win


----------



## miang248

*wow*

Have you ever seen a "field" golden retriever or lab and a confirmation golden or lab?? THey look like different breeds even more so than the HSD and Havanese.


----------



## juniormint

I've only seen dual champions...........and they looked alike to me. But the Golden comes from another retriever. They split because of the coat. This isn't as unusual as some might believe


----------



## mary c

"Smarty, I agree. If you look at HCA, it seems that you are buying a dog with a lot of health problems. The HSDAA site makes it look like their dogs have no health problems whatsoever. 

While the health issues need to be addressed, I think they shouldn't sound so alarming. When I was researching, I was a little turned off by all the health issues until I asked a lot of questions, and read some books. But how many people aren't doing the required research and just stay away from the breed
(maybe not a bad thing, more puppies for us. )
__________________
Michele
Kodi & Shelby's Mom "

this is a great suggestion, I am going to bring it up with the HCA health committee to revamp the page on the club website,
the health information on the HCA is a lot for a person looking for a puppy to take in, while we do have health issues as do
all breeds, generally our Hav's are a sturdy and healthy dog, and the website
should accentuate the positive, including the proactive stance the breed takes toward health issues.
cherie had posted some stats, showing how the incidence of some issues has gone down in the Havs.

Breeders and clubs have had people looking into the breed tell them that the
negativity scares them away.

and you are right the HSDAA site makes one looking into a pup there think they are getting a guaranteed healthy dog the way it is presented, while of course we know they are subject to the genetic surprises all dogs are.
gues they learned how not to present things from the way it was done by the then health committee of the club.
mary cane


----------



## juniormint

i never saw any part that guaranteed the health of the dog.


----------



## chrismom

Yes, it would be good if the HCA could make it more clear to the average person that the breed is not an unhealthy breed, instead it is more like - the Hav breeders (well- the good ones anyway) are working hard to make them even healthier, and doing a good job. Never to understate the importance of testing, but I do agree that it can appear that there are MORE health problems in the breed. 

I also agree- the Silk DOg website does make it seem like they beleive that their breed is free from problems. Like very good advertising.


----------



## The Fussy Puppy Gang

irnfit said:


> ...If you look at HCA, it seems that you are buying a dog with a lot of health problems....
> 
> While the health issues need to be addressed, I think they shouldn't sound so alarming. When I was researching, I was a little turned off by all the health issues until I asked a lot of questions, and read some books. But how many people aren't doing the required research and just stay away from the breed


I disagree. The HCA is doing the responsible thing in posting every potential health problem this breed faces. You do not want people buying these dogs who aren't willing to face the financial and care-providing burden for whatever ailments their dog may face. To downplay the potential health problems is to invite disaster for those pet Havanese.

The Havanese is growing in popularity - fast. This is not a good thing. It means more backyard breeders, for-profit breeders, and puppy mill crops. You do not want the national club to downplay potential health issues at this critical time.

If someone is shopping for a dog and is put off by the health risks of this breed, then please let them move on. If the demand for Havanese levels off, then the potential for greed-driven production goes down.

Ask anyone in rescue. They'll tell heartbreaking stories of dogs given up because the owners weren't prepared for the health issues or level of care required for the breed. I mean ANY breed, mostly those in the top 10 of the AKC registry list.

Every Havanese lover should pray that this breed never makes it into the top 10, or even close.

For years the Golden Retriever was #2. Last year the Yorkshire Terrier replaced the Golden as the #2 most registered dog. It was a happy day for Golden lovers, and a sad day for the Yorkie crowd. Labradors have long been #1. Walk through your local shelter and tell me how many Labradors and Lab-mixes you see, all awaiting homes or death. Because of popularity.

Yep - posting those health issues is a good thing. It weeds out those folks who want an "easy, low maintenance" breed.

Just my .02 worth,

Wanda


----------



## SMARTY

Good point Wanda, I never thaough of it that way. i just love this little member of our family so much and would have never considered her if I though I might be facing so many problems.


----------



## SMARTY

One other thing it would not be finances that would turn me off, just not wanting to love an animal then have to face some of the problems as described on the website.


----------



## chrismom

You know what- I guess that is true. I guess maybe they should just make it clear that this is not a more unhealthy breed than the others - thats all. I do know though that some Dobe people I know have really had thier heart broken by the cardiomyopathy in the breed- that is so sad. Makes it so clear how important health is!


----------



## irnfit

Wanda, I agree that you can't hide the facts of the potential health issues with the Havanese. But they make it sound so doom and gloom. I think they just need to address the issue in a different manner, set a positive tone to it and say because of all the testing, the breed is healthier now, etc, etc. I wouldn't respect them if they didn't have the info. It just needs to be presented in a different way. 

eace:


----------



## tejanoHavs

irnfit said:


> Wanda, I agree that you can't hide the facts of the potential health issues with the Havanese. But they make it sound so doom and gloom. I think they just need to address the issue in a different manner, set a positive tone to it and say because of all the testing, the breed is healthier now, etc, etc. I wouldn't respect them if they didn't have the info. It just needs to be presented in a different way.
> 
> eace:


I think what is necessary is a good, honest assessment of the health issues which might face an owner. So many statements on the HCA website are just blatantly false. Here's one:

"To date, all the early onset, blinding cataracts have been found in dogs with chondrodysplasia." Huh? How on earth would anyone know that? Dogs who have any type of cataracts usually receive that diagnosis via a CERF exam at the vet optho. Now, no where on that exam form is there a place it indicate whether forelegs show any sign of CD. The health committee should have been the people to place that content on the HCA website, so where on earth did it come from? I know of 2 Havanese who have straight legs and who have early onset, blinding cataracts. What happened to those two dogs in the above statement?:tape:

Here's another regarding deafness and BAER testing:
"The incidence in Havanese is not known as testing has not been widespread or consistent" Maybe this is just a really old statement, since the Havanese ranks as 8th out of over 150 breeds in terms of the number of dogs who have received and recorded BAER tests at OFA. So, our testing really is fairly widespread (with 1823 BAER exams registered for Havs vs. 1362 patella exams, 1103 hip exams, etc). And how many of those BAER tests showed a problem of any sort (unilateral or bilateral deafness)? Only 1/2 of 1%....that would be about 9 Havs total out of the entire 1800+ dogs. And not all of those were bilaterally deaf (a unilaterally deaf dog should not be bred but will live a totally normal life). I take our litters here over to Dr. George Strain at LSU for their BAER tests. He is probably the most well known authority on canine deafness. And while we always have a nice visit, :blah: he also always tells me he has yet to see a deaf Havanese. He came to our national specialty long ago to test as many Havs as possible when Diane Klumb first came up with the theory that deafness was a problem within our breed. Didn't find any there either.

I don't think we should gloss over possible health issues, but let's not blow them out of proportion either. If we really wanted to give new owners a reality check on the joys of puppyhood with a Hav, maybe we should talk more about housetraining, poop eating, grooming and the other issues that will face every single new Hav parent.:thumb:


----------



## mary c

Cherie wrote" I don't think we should gloss over possible health issues, but let's not blow them out of proportion either. If we really wanted to give new owners a reality check on the joys of puppyhood with a Hav, maybe we should talk more about housetraining, poop eating, grooming and the other issues that will face every single new Hav parent."

I can tell you for a fact, as a regional contact for Havanese Rescue, Inc, and a member of the intake committee, that the absolute MOST common reason that dogs are relinquished is housebreaking, second behavioral issues, ie.. chasing/nipping kids, seperation anxiety... most often it is because a family is not prepared for the responsibilty that comes with adopting a puppy. unfortuantely too many of them were purchased at pet shops or from puppy mills that end up in need of rescue. 

Mary Cane
Moorea Havanese

we do take in dogs with health issues that a family can't find the way to raise the funds to take care of, but that is not at the top of the list of reasons dogs are given up.


----------



## The Fussy Puppy Gang

mary c said:


> Cherie wrote" I don't think we should gloss over possible health issues, but let's not blow them out of proportion either. If we really wanted to give new owners a reality check on the joys of puppyhood with a Hav, maybe we should talk more about housetraining, poop eating, grooming and the other issues that will face every single new Hav parent."
> 
> I can tell you for a fact, as a regional contact for Havanese Rescue, Inc, and a member of the intake committee, that the absolute MOST common reason that dogs are relinquished is housebreaking, second behavioral issues, ie.. chasing/nipping kids, seperation anxiety... most often it is because a family is not prepared for the responsibilty that comes with adopting a puppy. unfortuantely too many of them were purchased at pet shops or from puppy mills that end up in need of rescue.
> 
> Mary Cane
> Moorea Havanese
> 
> we do take in dogs with health issues that a family can't find the way to raise the funds to take care of, but that is not at the top of the list of reasons dogs are given up.


Cherie, you're right. Exaggerating a potentially bad scenario doesn't help anyone! Posting wrong or false info doesn't help either.

Mary, you made my point exactly. Too many dogs are given up because owners weren't prepared for what that particular breed needed. This is why education is so very important! We were active in golden rescue for eight years. In that time, the #1 reason given by owners for surrendering their goldens was "not enough time." Goldens are very people-oriented. They need a great deal of attention, exercise and interaction. Not to mention their coats require regular grooming. It became pretty standard for golden rescues to list the top reasons why a golden would NOT be a match for certain families.

Maybe the HCA and Havanese rescues (who might have this already, I haven't seen the rescue sites, sorry) could do the same. Post a list of why a Havanese would NOT be a good match to those looking. It might save a few dogs - and families - the heartache of finding out the hard way that they chose the wrong breed.

I can tell you that I would've loved to know about the -ah- 'poopy butt' that this adorable breed has to deal with now and then. Hey - for some people that might be the last straw. :doh:

Hopefully the HSDAA will do the same for their dogs. Post informative and honest information about potential health risks as well as a check list of why their dogs might NOT be a good match.

Wanda


----------



## chrismom

I have asked every havanese person I know if they have ever had a deaf havanese, or personally know someone that has- everyone says no. So, in my thinking, if there was this huge issue with it, I think someone would know of more with it. Yes, we do BAER testing on ours, but really think it is over rated. The actual numbers acording to BAER also don't point to real problems. In fact they actually state that there are a certain percentage of ALL dogs, (and humans) that are bi-latterly, or uni-latterly deaf and it is not hereditary and Havanese are below that number, so it doesn't seem to be the big thing that it is made to appear. Breeds that are concidered to have hereditary deafness have MUCH higher percentages than Havanese.
Same with hips, I have seen on OFA that there are a few hip issues, and I have personally seen toy dogs- not Havanese- that had problems because they were dysplastic, but I still think that hip problems in this breed are not that bad. I do think that they should be getting OFAd, but if someone doesn't do every single dog, I don't feel panicked. Well, I guess that has to depend on the person- how well you know them, hmmmm, because I guess that some people might have bad results and just say they were never done. I guess there has to be some thought into that one.
As far as cataracts though- Havanese (not some- all of them) had big issues with it a long time ago, and through breeders working hard on it and testing dogs (and making decisions based on the results) the incidence is now very low. That does not mean that since it is low, that now we don't need to do it. Personally, I would take that more seriously that the Baer test. I would want to see more than just the parents results, and also not just dogs that were one or two at the test- that is important too.


----------



## juniormint

I have a question.  Let's say the HSD is recognized by the AKC in 5 years. And your dog looks like an HSD but you never supported the HSDAA and didn't register your dog with them. Once the HSD is recognized where can you show your dog? I mean if it really looks like an HSD and the HSD is a seperate breed then, are you screwed? And with all the talk of changing the standard, if the HCA does change the standard and your dog still has that single coat and is slightly longer than tall, where does that leave you? Will you need to find a new breed? Will you change your program to be more like the Havanese (and their new Standard)? I see this putting lots of people who have the same pedigrees in a bind someday.


----------



## irnfit

Cherie, that was my thinking; maybe I didn't express it correctly. The health issues are very exaggerated on the HCA site. People need to be informed, but they don't need to be scared out of their wits, either. It makes it sound like there is this cute, smart puppy that is just plagued with health problems.
Maybe instead of having it listed as health problems, they should set it up as health education/awareness.


----------



## tejanoHavs

irnfit said:


> Cherie, that was my thinking; maybe I didn't express it correctly. The health issues are very exaggerated on the HCA site. People need to be informed, but they don't need to be scared out of their wits, either. It makes it sound like there is this cute, smart puppy that is just plagued with health problems.
> Maybe instead of having it listed as health problems, they should set it up as health education/awareness.


Hi Michelle,

I think that would be a wonderful way to phrase it in any public education materials...."health education". That applies both to those wanting to be educated before purchasing a puppy as well as to existing owners and breeders who are wanting to know more about health in general for their Havs. That's a great suggestion :biggrin1: I'll be sure to pass that along!


----------



## irnfit

Thanks Cherie. Sometimes the brain freeze goes away and I can actually put down in words what I really meant to say.  Just like Chrismom stated earlier, tell people these problems can arise, but they haven't been seen because the breeders are doing such a great job. Put the emphasis on what is a problem, like cataracts, CD, and anything else. Just don't lump everything together as it being so severe a problem.

Accentuate the positive...talk more about agility, therapy and the rest.


----------



## tejanoHavs

The Fussy Puppy Gang said:


> Maybe the HCA and Havanese rescues (who might have this already, I haven't seen the rescue sites, sorry) could do the same. Post a list of why a Havanese would NOT be a good match to those looking. It might save a few dogs - and families - the heartache of finding out the hard way that they chose the wrong breed.
> 
> I can tell you that I would've loved to know about the -ah- 'poopy butt' that this adorable breed has to deal with now and then. Hey - for some people that might be the last straw. :doh:
> 
> Hopefully the HSDAA will do the same for their dogs. Post informative and honest information about potential health risks as well as a check list of why their dogs might NOT be a good match.
> 
> Wanda


Very good ideas, Wanda. Most breed clubs DO have a section on their websites along the lines of "so you want to get a Havanese" that contains factual info about what is involved in being a good match for that breed, but the HCA does not have this and really should.

And you mean to tell me you don't enjoy giving butt bathes to your dogs when they have clingons (that's what our boys call them here :biggrin1: ).

You know what is unfortunate about the hype being presenting on the HSDAA website is that HCA and HRI will end up being the rescue resources for those dogs as well since they are claiming to be Havanese, but just the select group of Havanese (at least for now until they hope to become a new breed of their own). I think rescue organizations will have some clean up to do there from messes they might create with this positive spin.

As a breeder, I get lots of calls from people looking for Havanese and since I don't breed all that much most of them are just exercises in education since I really want folks who have talked to me to understand that buyer's should be asking the right questions in order to find the best match in a breeder for them. And often I counsel those potential owners away from the breed. I just give a very honest presentation of the good AND the not-so-good of owning a Havanese and am sure that they understand it is buyer beware when screening possible breeders out there. I'm sure many folks don't appreciate that, but when I was pres. of HCA I used to hear from many folks who learned that buyer beware part only after they purchased from a less than reputable breeder and were experiencing heartaches of some sort.

Presenting a realistic picture of the breed is one of the best things we can do for these little dogs we love. And each of us can do that in our own way, whether we breed, own pets or whatever :whoo:


----------



## The Fussy Puppy Gang

tejanoHavs said:


> ...And you mean to tell me you don't enjoy giving butt bathes to your dogs when they have clingons (that's what our boys call them here :biggrin1: ).
> 
> You know what is unfortunate about the hype being presenting on the HSDAA website is that HCA and HRI will end up being the rescue resources for those dogs as well since they are claiming to be Havanese...I think rescue organizations will have some clean up to do there from messes they might create with this positive spin.
> 
> ...I just give a very honest presentation of the good AND the not-so-good of owning a Havanese...
> 
> Presenting a realistic picture of the breed is one of the best things we can do for these little dogs we love. And each of us can do that in our own way, whether we breed, own pets or whatever :whoo:


Yeah :suspicious: not so crazy about the clingons. I think it's only fair to warn people that they might want to check under that tail fur before picking up their dog after he's pooped. I'm now fully armed with wet wipes and disposable gloves...:biggrin1:

Golden, poodle and Labrador rescues were faced with a clean-up problem when the "doodle" breeds became all the rage. Thankfully there are now "doodle" rescues. Let's hope that the HSDAA will be as proactive about supporting their homeless offspring as the HCA is about homeless Havanese.

You said it! Presenting a realistic picture of the breed - good and bad - is the very least we can do for the dogs themselves. Can you imagine how many sweet Havanese would end up in shelters or rescue if the buying public were led to believe this breed is low maintenance? Pepper was a walking ball of matted, urine soaked, poopy fur when we got him. Really. Who would wish that existence on any of these dogs?

The same goes for the HSD. It won't be a 100% problem-free breed, that's impossible. The folks who are key to it's gaining recognition should do all in their power to make sure everyone who looks at the breed is well aware of the positives and negatives of that breed.

Wanda


----------



## ama0722

I was looking at one of the breeders websites-sorry don't remember who, I was puppy dreaming <BG> and they compared the health issues of other toy breeds. I was kind of shocked to see pugs and pomeranians (breeds 2 of my good friends have) have a lot more unhealthy numbers. That might be a way to get across the health issues but to compare them to other toy dog numbers as to not portray them as unhealthy breed.

Amanda


----------



## chrismom

Junoir Mint said- I have a question. Let's say the HSD is recognized by the AKC in 5 years. And your dog looks like an HSD but you never supported the HSDAA and didn't register your dog with them. Once the HSD is recognized where can you show your dog? I mean if it really looks like an HSD and the HSD is a seperate breed then, are you screwed? And with all the talk of changing the standard, if the HCA does change the standard and your dog still has that single coat and is slightly longer than tall, where does that leave you? Will you need to find a new breed? Will you change your program to be more like the Havanese (and their new Standard)? I see this putting lots of people who have the same pedigrees in a bind someday.
__________________
Barb 

Here is my take on that- and I'd say this is how most good breeders would think. If the standard is not calling for a single, coat, etc. then why would you breed for it? You are saying if you don't suppost the HSA and then in so many years your dogs are looking more like that then what- right? Well, then I'd say that is not a good breeder. Maybe that person needs to get a better Havanese, not make an inferior one be a breeding dog. Any breed will have dogs that do not fit the standard- the answer is not to start a new breed to fit those dogs, the answer is to breed better dogs of what ever breed it is you are breeding. We actually did use a dog that has a less than ideal coat, because he has many other good points. We don't want the standard to fit him, we want his good points - plus better coat, to fit the Havanese coat. His littermates and parents all have good coats. He will only be bred to bitches with exceptionally good coats, and their offspring in the future will only be bred to others with exceptionally good coats. Like anything else- a bad coat is a fault, one you breed away from. Even if we had a great bitch that had a crappy coat, we would never breed it to him, that would be doubling up on that coat. SO then what- just have more like that and argue that the standard should meet what we breed.

No, thats not how breeding dogs and showing dogs work. You don't just make the standard suit what you want it to, you breed to the standard. If that is not the breed you want to start with- start out with a different breed, don't try to make one how you want it to be.

Like anything else, coat, squareness, etc, Havanese should be bred to look like a Havanese- if they look like something else, it doesn't mean they are something else, it means the breeder is not doing a good job!

Just think- what if a breeder for lots of generations chose dogs with increasingly shorter muzzles, only using purebred AKC registered Havanese, in enough generations some would start to look more like SHih Tzus. THen what- should we change the standard to allow for them? Should they then petition to have some registered as Shih Tzus? SHould they then start another NEW breed? No- they should not be breeding dogs - period!


----------



## Havtahava

> Let's say the HSD is recognized by the AKC in 5 years. And your dog looks like an HSD but you never supported the HSDAA and didn't register your dog with them. Once the HSD is recognized where can you show your dog?


The dog is still a registered Havanese and that would be the only breed that it could be shown in. If it isn't a registered HSD, then no matter how it looks, it can't be shown as one.


----------



## miang248

*OKAY FOLKS*

*DOC*I do plan to continue with Rally which is not breed specific and Pearlie wants an RN title. 
Awesome-I love performance dogs.



> I thought it very interesting how Liz's post was taken as 'gospel' despite the obvious inaccuracies (as in the standard's been changed more since we went AKC than before...totally wrong) and simply accepted on blind faith. No one else noticed that Liz STILL thinks that the Havanese should have short legs despite our current standard? Frankly, I think Liz should be on the new standard committee...how about a movement to draft her? Absolutely serious here...she's an icon, honor and respect her, put her back in charge...it'd be great. 'gospel' desp


This sounds to me like you are denigrating Liz, why would you do so? She has been in the breed longer than you Doc.

And as far as the forum asking stupid questions...you think it's dumb to ask why Greg is specialing a dog in corded coat when he stated a proper HSD does not cord? Please, it's common sense to ask such a question.

It seems to me the HSDAA is a group of friends who love to excluede people and pretend they are better....when sadly they are not. Look at the history people. eace:


----------



## chrismom

VERY WELL SAID!!!


----------



## juniormint

Thanks for answering my question Kimberly. I guess everyone else is still in attack mode and couldn't see the underlying question.


----------



## juniormint

miang248 said:


> *DOC*I do plan to continue with Rally which is not breed specific and Pearlie wants an RN title.
> Awesome-I love performance dogs.
> 
> This sounds to me like you are denigrating Liz, why would you do so? She has been in the breed longer than you Doc.
> 
> And as far as the forum asking stupid questions...you think it's dumb to ask why Greg is specialing a dog in corded coat when he stated a proper HSD does not cord? Please, it's common sense to ask such a question.
> 
> It seems to me the HSDAA is a group of friends who love to excluede people and pretend they are better....when sadly they are not. Look at the history people. eace:


It might surprise you to learn Greg and Doc have a wonderful reputation on the forum. They've helped many people with some of their answers. They were always polite and considerate (in my opinion of course). Posting like you do only makes me feel you have an agenda. Do you?


----------



## Honey Poney's

_And as far as the forum asking stupid questions...you think it's dumb to ask why Greg is specialing a dog in corded coat when he stated a proper HSD does not cord? Please, it's common sense to ask such a question._

I am still waiting for the aswer.

Christine
Honey Poney's Havanese.


----------



## Melissa Miller

If Im not mistaken Greg is now stating that his dog (if you are talking about Jake? ) is having cording problems..that after 2 years they started to fall out. Its post number 1035 and you can see the cording comments in the few posts around there. 

Im sure several people have agendas here... Some of us think the HSD was nothing more than one big agenda...so to each their own in asking questions. However, I think Greg and Doc left the building. They didn't like when the questions got heated, which I understand. I guess they really don't owe anybody anything.


----------



## Thumper

Okay, I was just looking at the updated breeder list on the HSD website and it states that: 
*A note of caution:
Ads have begun appearing recently on the internet for "Havana Silk Dogs" which are in fact, simply Havanese whose owners have chosen to use the name to describe their own dogs. And some Havanese breeders' websites now advertise "Havanese, also known as Havana Silk Dogs".
Do not be taken in by these deceptive advertising practices!!! *

Hasn't the term been used for years? And not in a "Deceptive" way? I'm sure there are some breeders not even aware of the HSD. Isn't the term "Havana Silk Dog" still on the HCA website??

How is this considered "deceptive"??? If it has always been an alternative name? And they aren't recognized as a new breed by the AKC yet?

Oh, and if you scroll down further, there is now a list of breeders for any prospective buyers. fyi.


----------



## irnfit

There was actually a post on the "other list" about this. Some people are now getting together to try and sue HSDAA to prevent them from using the Havana Silk Dog name.


----------



## Thumper

Thanks,

I must be behind on posts on that thread.


Kara


----------



## chrismom

OMG!!!! I just was doing a thourough look at the pedigrees behind the havana silk dogs- they are basically alll out of Dorothy Goodales dogs- period! Even the imports in the pedigree, are out of the same dogs from here!
It is amazing! The dog they are complaininga about - Rags girl- is all over their pedigrees. I can't beleive it! How on Earth can they use this as a thing to complain about when they are using the exact same dogs in thier pedigrees!!!!

So- common logic tells you- if there are health issues in those dogs- then it is the SAME exact issues in the havanese as the havana silk dogs!!!

No one should be breeding bowed legs, and it is doubtful that any good breeders are as they claim. No one should be not testing. so that whole issue is up to good breeders vs. bad breeders, and you'll have that in any breed. 

The only real difference is in the type of look they prefer. The majority of Havanese people are not going along with them, so this is their marketing tool- period! 

Too bad, because I have to agree with some of what they are saying- about type- not their type, but to get more uniform type, it takes linebreeding. That is they thing they are utilizing, thats where consistency comes in. 

But it is amazing- how they can make an issue about these dogs - they make it seem that they are the problem dogs- yet those are the ones in their own pedigree- wow- amazing!!!


----------



## dboudreau

I was reading the names of breeders on the HSDAA web site. Can a breeder have it both ways? Can their dogs be both Havana Silk Dogs and Havanese at the same time?


----------



## Havtahava

Debbie, all Havana Silk Dogs _are_ Havanese right now, and probably will be for quite a while. It's like saying all oranges are fruits, but not all fruits are oranges. (In a very general comparison.)

Likewise, when the two breeds are eventually separated, assuming the Havana Silk Dogs will eventually be a recognized breed of distinction, then breeders can still have both much like some breeders have Yorkies and Havanese. You just don't mix the breeds together if you are ethical.

And some breeders will keep some of their dogs only as Havanese, and may register one or more as Havana Silk Dogs. Each breeder is different.

I hope this helps.


----------



## juniormint

much of what I read says the Havanese came from the Havana Silk dog (which is now extinct). When the HCA had the opportunity to change their name last year they didn't. Why would they care if someone else uses it if it wasn't good enough for them to use themselves? 

These are stupid arguements. None of this affects us. It only makes a few select breeders angry and they keep stiring the pot. 

I notice the HCA Registrar after Dorothy is with the HSDAA. She's the one who built the registry and turned it over to the AKC. I wonder what she knows that we don't know? Interesting.


----------



## dboudreau

Kimberly, This is were I get confussed. Right now this spit in only in the US. Let assume for a minute that they are two breeds. OK, in Canada, I breed Sam (Havanese) To Dog "B" (HSD). The pups are Havanese according to the CKC, but will they be "Mutts" in the US?


----------



## Havtahava

I am trying to write this as simply as possible and yet, covering everything without upsetting anyone in any position.

Right now, the HSD isn't a separate "breed", at least not according to the AKC, which is the registry for the U.S. In that regard, the dogs listed as HSD are more like members of a unique club, but part of the ethics of that club are that you only breed HSD to HSD, so they wouldn't breed one of theirs to a Havanese not in the HSD registry. Got it so far?

And to answer your question, they would still be Havanese in the U.S. up until the time that the HSD is recognized as a separate breed. At that time, any dogs bred AFTER the breed is separate and distinct, they would be mutts, but any bred before the AKC adds HSD to their official breed listing are still Havanese. (Now, I don't know the specifics of how that would work in the Havana Silk Dog Association of America, but I would assume that they would consider offspring to be Havanese and not Havana Silk Dogs.)

In short, according to the AKC, they are all Havanese, not mutts until there is an official breed called "The Havana Silk Dog". (And that will take quite a while - years.)

Does that help?


----------



## Julie

chrismom said:


> OMG!!!! I just was doing a thourough look at the pedigrees behind the havana silk dogs- they are basically alll out of Dorothy Goodales dogs- period! Even the imports in the pedigree, are out of the same dogs from here!
> It is amazing! The dog they are complaininga about - Rags girl- is all over their pedigrees. I can't beleive it! How on Earth can they use this as a thing to complain about when they are using the exact same dogs in thier pedigrees!!!!
> 
> So- common logic tells you- if there are health issues in those dogs- then it is the SAME exact issues in the havanese as the havana silk dogs!!!
> 
> No one should be breeding bowed legs, and it is doubtful that any good breeders are as they claim. No one should be not testing. so that whole issue is up to good breeders vs. bad breeders, and you'll have that in any breed.
> 
> The only real difference is in the type of look they prefer. The majority of Havanese people are not going along with them, so this is their marketing tool- period!
> 
> Too bad, because I have to agree with some of what they are saying- about type- not their type, but to get more uniform type, it takes linebreeding. That is they thing they are utilizing, thats where consistency comes in.
> 
> But it is amazing- how they can make an issue about these dogs - they make it seem that they are the problem dogs- yet those are the ones in their own pedigree- wow- amazing!!!


Funny----------I've been saying that OVER and Over and Over in this thread.....and it was just glossed over!Amazing how they can make a silk purse out of a pig's ear huh?:biggrin1:


----------



## Thumper

Where are you looking at the pedigrees? http://havanesegallery.hu/index_en.php ?

I was looking up the Bydand dogs, and they have Destiny in the pedigree, and also Mendoza.

This is SOOOO confusing! lol

Kara


----------



## juniormint

I can understand their frustration :frusty: 

They said (a million posts ago) that they were trying to breed away from the AZ dogs and when they did, their dogs got healthier and looked different. So they built a registry that will ID AZ blood. This way they can continue to breed away. I also heard they will allow Cuban dogs that meet their strict criteria to come into their registry to better dilute the AZ blood. 

You may have asked the question over and over but you should have been reading their answers. Join the bluebonnet list for more information. I'm finding it interesting.


----------



## dboudreau

Havtahava said:


> And to answer your question, they would still be Havanese in the U.S. up until the time that the HSD is recognized as a separate breed. At that time, any dogs bred AFTER the breed is separate and distinct, they would be mutts,
> 
> Does that help?


Not really, but thanks for trying. I'm not good at expressing myself. My question is after (if ever the breed splits) in the US. And it doesn't split anywhere else. So breeding a Havanese looking dog to a HSD looking dog will still be a Havanese everywhere but in the US. So if we were going to show our dogs in the US we would have to show them as a Havanese. (Light Bulb moment) I think I just answered my own question. Sorry.:focus:


----------



## irnfit

I just got Kodi's extended pedigree from AKC. He has quite a few Destiny dogs in his line, as well as Kimbriels. Also a lot of the Los Perritos line, including Pan. So, does that make him a Cuban dog? He sure looks like one.
Interesting that Shelby also has Destiny, Kimbriels and Starkette. Doesn't this just prove that the gene pool was so small that all Havs probably evolved from from the same lines?


----------



## chrismom

Trying to breed away from the AZ dogs? OK- even if we group a couple of the original dogs that Dorothy used as "Arizona Dogs"- which is weird anyway-lol! My whole point is- they are sayig they are trying -"to breed away from them" Ok- so what does that mean?

It has been lots of generations- not just for them, for everyone breeding Havanese- period- that is breeding away from them in a sense. In the back of the pedigrees they are using- there is still the - ABSOLUTE SAME EXACT DOGS- PERIOD-no others! I even thought that I had missed something over the years, and that there was actually new bloodlines introduced- well- no! All the same dogs- period!

Even the imports- and this is funny too, even them- they are out of the same US dogs! Now if they want to say that there are breeders they prefer-whether here or abroad, and that is the reason to import, that is fine- but to imply that they actually are out of different dogs- is plain nuts!

Then to say that importing street dogs from Cuba will improve any health issues - that is really nuts!

The fact is- a long time ago- Havanese were plagued with cataracts- now they have among the healthiest of eyes- that is good breeding!

No breeder is saying that they want to breed for bow legged dogs. THe answer is- use a good breeder- period!

If someone decides that they want something different than the breed is already- then say so- don't use all the excuses- like different bloodlines- etc. bowed legs, just do their own thing- but leave the Havanese alone!


----------



## whitBmom

juniormint said:


> I can understand their frustration :frusty:
> 
> They said (a million posts ago) that they were trying to breed away from the AZ dogs and when they did, their dogs got healthier and looked different. So they built a registry that will ID AZ blood. This way they can continue to breed away. I also heard they will allow Cuban dogs that meet their strict criteria to come into their registry to better dilute the AZ blood.
> 
> You may have asked the question over and over but you should have been reading their answers. Join the bluebonnet list for more information. I'm finding it interesting.


Good for you juniormint. But its comments like yours that continue the HELP me see why the Havanese community is all frustrated. :frusty: :frusty: :frusty: :frusty: :frusty:


----------



## chrismom

So- how will they ID - the arizona blood? lol!!!

It is the same exact dogs in all of the pedigrees- period- period- period!!! Their pedigrees include the exact same dogs - period! 

Lots of generations will dilute the original dogs- but not just in their breeeding- in everyones breeding. 

The only difference is that they like the flatter coats, and that most of them are looking more square. If that is what they like- then say so, instead they try to make it seem that theirs are from a different bloodline, or that they hav no health issues. that is not true. they are all from the same dogs- period!!! THat is a Havanese-period.


----------



## Asia's mommy

I've read a lot of these threads and I have to say... If I didn't already love my baby Asia... I would be horrified and terrified to spend $1500 - $2000 on a hav. I completely agree with keeping our breed as pure as possible, but um, some of this is getting a bit out of hand - don't you think. Saying the only true hav's have xy and z and nothing else... come on. I'm a whole lot more worried about the people that are looking into buying our beloved breed and finding kennel clubs and hav owners bickering:croc: over what is what, than I am if your hav has curlier hair than mine. The proof is in the pedigree. Read it, the proof is in the pedigree. Like I said, I believe that we as hav owners have a responsibility to our dogs to keep the blood line stay pure as possible, but at what cost. :frusty: 

That's my thoughts for what it's worth -Jessieace: 

I'm sorry if this made me enemies, It was never meant to offend!


----------



## Thumper

I don't think you will make any enemies, hon! This thread is full of different opinions and so far, its been relatively civil.

I was perusing some of the HSD breeders websites today, looking at their breeding stock. Boy, am I really confused now! lol But I'll keep the comments and observations to myself.

Kara


----------



## juniormint

chrismom said:


> So- how will they ID - the arizona blood? lol!!!
> 
> It is the same exact dogs in all of the pedigrees- period- period- period!!! Their pedigrees include the exact same dogs - period!
> 
> Lots of generations will dilute the original dogs- but not just in their breeeding- in everyones breeding.
> 
> The only difference is that they like the flatter coats, and that most of them are looking more square. If that is what they like- then say so, instead they try to make it seem that theirs are from a different bloodline, or that they hav no health issues. that is not true. they are all from the same dogs- period!!! THat is a Havanese-period.


You seem pretty sure of yourself here. Can you take a moment and explain to us how the English Cocker and the American Cocker can all go back to the same dogs but are accepted as different breeds? Or how 'bout the Norwich and Norfolk Terriers? They all go back to the same set of dogs as well.

So since having the same dogs in your pedigree means you can't be a separate breed, please take a moment and explain the 4 breeds I just asked about. I'm sure your answer will clear things up for us.

I, on the other hand, believe there were members of both the English Cocker club and the Norwich Terrier club who were shocked and appalled at the apparent efforts to split their breeds as well. It didn't change anything though. I wonder if in hind sight, they wish they'd done anything different. I wonder what we can do that can make this less acrimonious.:brick:


----------



## Havtahava

> I, on the other hand, believe there were members of both the English Cocker club and the Norwich Terrier club who were shocked and appalled at the apparent efforts to split their breeds as well. It didn't change anything though. I wonder if in hind sight, they wish they'd done anything different. I wonder what we can do that can make this less acrimonious.


 That's an interesting way of thinking, Barb! I have a friend that I see almost weekly that has Norwich Terriers (that is the one with the erect ears, right?). I'll ask her next week when I see her. I wonder if she has any insight to that. I don't think she's old enough to know, but she may have some ideas from discussions over the years.

Oh wait - the Norwich & Norfolk split seems to be a lot different than the Hav HSD divide (I don't like the term "split" because I don't think this is a true split of breeds.). They still share the same parent club. They are the only AKC affliated club for two breeds. I'd daresay theirs is already much more amicable than ours.


----------



## Honey Poney's

The problem is not the splitting of the breed.

The problem is the name giving, and the insinuation that the Havanese is not a healthy dog.


----------



## Havtahava

But see, I don't see either of those issues to be a problem. 

1. The name is not something that the general public is aware of in a current context. Those that have read up, also know that it is an "extinct" breed or an old name.

2. And as for the insinuation that the Havanese is not a healthy dog, well insinuations are made every day about people and I just don't see a reason to be bothered by that. The proof is in the pudding. If I have three Havanese here and anyone wanted to insinuate anything about them, I'm the one who can prove otherwise, you know? By the way, has the HSD club formally said that Havanese in general are not healthy? I got the impression that was just from a conversation with one person here (or two), but not a formal club position.


----------



## Honey Poney's

In Europe the Havanese is also known as the "Havana Silk Dog"

Having a "Havanese" and a "Havana Silk Dog" in the US will be so confusing.


----------



## Thumper

I think many statments on the HSD website imply that the Havanese is not a healthy, nor "good looking" dog, with high risk for chrondodysplasia and eye problems. 

Maybe that's just my impression..does anyone else get that vibe?


----------



## SMARTY

It will be years and will work itself out if AKC recognizes the HSD. I would think if you have a Havanese in another country you would have a Havanese in the US. The HSD will have a limited registration and will not recognize other countries Havanese with out all the requirements as they have stated in previous threads. If they do accept other countries registrations that may or may not have the problems the HSD are trying to get away from, what is the point of starting a new breed?


----------



## Havtahava

For me, the bigger problem is the puppy millers and backyard breeders that just breed and breed and breed these poor dogs as if they were money-making machines. They don't health test, they don't research pedigrees to better the breed, or anything. That's where a lot of the health problems come from and that's a much bigger problem in my mind than this is. I see so many people in this area ending up with dogs that need major medical attention. Once in a while, a good breeder will end up with a health problem, but hopefully they've done as much as they can to rule it out (like health testing their dogs BEFORE breeding them).

If someone wants to own (show, breed or buy a puppy) a dog called a Havana Silk Dog, I just don't see what the problem is. It doesn't sound like my cup of tea at the moment, but I don't see it as a big deal either.

Of the breeders that have posted here in favor of the Havana Silk Dog Assocication or just trying to explain it, they are either friends of mine or people that I would recommend highly as breeders. I don't care that their dogs have been pulled out of the Havanese gene pool so much because that is their perogative. I will still recommend them as outstanding breeders because that is what they are. I am not part of them (HSDAA), but I still think you're getting a great dog with the HSDAA folks that have posted in this thread. I have a dog from one (Hillary), and one closely related (Martha) to her and am very pleased with them.


----------



## Thumper

I agree with you on the backyard breeders, but it seems like they are pointing the fingers at the Arizona stock, ie. Destiny, Mendoza, etc. which would point the problem finger at alot of reputable breeders as well.

I can tell that the HSD breeders I know or have spoken to, via here or real life are VERY passionate and devoted to breeding. In fact, I was planning on getting Hav #2 from one of them, and still may  (I just need to work on hubby a bit more and buy a bigger bed) lol

Your dogs are beautiful! And so are the ones I've seen in real life that are now HSD's...no doubt.

I am pleased with Gucci too, she's got a Tapscott daddy and a Canyon Hills mommy and she's just perfect, to me. I guess that's all that matters 

Kara


----------



## Havtahava

The problem with throwing out the names "Destiny", "Mendoza", "Tapscott", etc. is that they are just kennel names. All it means is that the dogs all came from that place. It doesn't even mean that the dogs are related. My kennel name is Havtahava and all the puppies that come from Tinky, Martha and Hillary will leave with "Havtahava" in front of them, but that does NOT mean they are related. Hillary and Martha are distantly half-related, but Tinky isn't related to either of them at all, so just because a puppy has a registered name of Havtahava or Destiny (or whatever), it doesn't necessarily mean that another dog with the same name is even of the same bloodlines.

And thank you for the compliment, Kara. I think all my girls are gorgeous.


----------



## irnfit

OK, I 've got that part. But somewhere it all started with one line of dogs. So don't they all come from those bloodlines? I understand they are not related. It would be very interesting to DNA test all these dogs to see what the answer would be.


----------



## chrismom

Junior Mint- its not that I care about whether or not they want to split- so be it. No problems. If that is the type they are preferring and they want a new breed I have no problems with that. In fact if they were showing rare breed like I saw a post that Doc made about looking forward to showing rare breed again- if i happened to be at a show they were at I'd probably watch, and hope to see them do well in the group. As a type, they might have some wonderful dogs, and they seem to honestly want good things for the dogs. I wish them well, totally.

That is not my issue though. My problem is with them implying that those that are not "with them" are not as concerned with health, and that in the beginning of the breed there were some that were "better" and some that were not as good dogs. (OK- sure - I'd imagine that would be a true thought), but then they are implying that those dogs are are not in their pedigrees, but only the better, "true" cuban dogs are in their pedigrees. that simply is not true. In the beginning of the Havanese breed - there were only a small group of dogs, those exact same dogs are in the pedigrees of their dogs- AND everyone elses dogs- period. It has been implied also that there are imports that are of a better type because they were from a different gene pool- well, look farther back in the pedigrees- you will still find that it is the same dogs- period! 

What ever anyone takes from what they have read about this "breed split" or what ever you want to call it- whatever. But reading ALL of this thread, it is clear that the message that the pet people seem to be getting is that their Havanese are not as healthy as the Havana Silk DOgs, and also it seems that there are lines or something that have none of certain dogs in it, or something like that. Well that is not true either.

For example, this "rags girl" dog, you can read about her (poor dog- makes me feel bad for her) in some of the Havana Silk Dog stuff- that she was bad, or what ever, and they want to breed away from her. Well, so be it. But my point is that she is in the pedigrees of the people listed on the Havana Silk dog breeders list, just like she is in the pedigree of pretty much every Havanese - period, if you go back far enough. It is all the same- if you go back far enough- there was no difference back then, so neither way of thinking is a more pure gene pool as it seems to imply.

I don't care about the split in the other breeds. None of that is the point. I don't care if these people want to split either, that is fine too. Hey - I don't care if they end up AKC, and we can concider them cousins- thats cool too. The only thing that bothers me is how it seems to make pet people feel that they have the "inferior", and less "pure" version if they do not have the Havana Silk dog. That is just crazy- they really came from the exact same dogs- period! What breeders have chosen to do since then is the difference, and will continue to be, no matter what. That is how it will be in any breed.


----------



## chrismom

Yes- this breed ALL came from the same group of dogs. However, they were not all exactly related. Some came from different places. And that is where they get the idea that some now are out of certain dogs, and some now are out of other dogs. That part is the part that is not true. It was a very small number of dogs. They were all interbred. Many early pedigrees have lots of close breedings, and it was quite a few generations before any kind of similarities really formed out of the early crosses. Eventually, I'd imagine, certain dogs were eliminated for different reasons. But- this was early in the breed. All of the dogs currently have All of them in their pedigrees- not just a few of them- All of them. To have had only some of them would have meant a ton of generations of very close inbreeding. That was not the case. The different ones were used interchangeably in the beginning- they had no choice. 

This is the Havanese beginnings, but very similar things have happened in many breeeds. This is just how it is. Not a problem. Sure, in time people might realize that the breed might have been better off if this dog or that was never in the genepool, and breed away from it. That is normal dog breeding. The implications that most people are feeling from this though is not the same. Instead, it feels like they are implyng that "their" dogs Never included certain dogs in their bloodlines- therefore they are the better dogs. 

Also, it sometimes appears that in importing from Europe, that some have stayed away from the early problem dogs. That is also not the case. The dogs in Europe are also from the same exact dogs from here. Now if someone wants to say they are importing because they feel that there are some great breeders in Europe and they have done a great job with the breed. I can understand that totally. ( I have imported with great results and will do it again-another breed) But Not to say that they are somehow unrelated.


----------



## irnfit

And that's what I was trying to point out. In checking both my dogs pedigrees, way back they have a lot of the same dogs there. I know they are not related. But as far back as I could get, they have the same dogs in their pedigrees. With the gene pool being so limited at the time, this is very understandable. So the HS dogs have to have the same dogs in their pedigrees also, as you stated.


----------



## Melissa Miller

Havtahava said:


> But see, I don't see either of those issues to be a problem.
> 
> 1. The name is not something that the general public is aware of in a current context. Those that have read up, also know that it is an "extinct" breed or an old name.
> 
> 2. And as for the insinuation that the Havanese is not a healthy dog, well insinuations are made every day about people and I just don't see a reason to be bothered by that. The proof is in the pudding. If I have three Havanese here and anyone wanted to insinuate anything about them, I'm the one who can prove otherwise, you know? By the way, has the HSD club formally said that Havanese in general are not healthy? I got the impression that was just from a conversation with one person here (or two), but not a formal club position.


The accusations do upset me. A lot of people have worked hard to breed healthy dogs for them to make out our dogs to be so plagued with problems. I think their website is very insulting to Havanese dogs and breeders. For _some _of them to act so perfect as if they do not breed dogs with problems or health issues knowing they have skeletons in the closet, drives me bonkers. I do think a lot of this has to do with ego and money.

I cant say I would recommend someone supporting them, but I do not know. From my understanding the bitches and stud dogs are only allowed to breed with other HSDA dogs once they are registered. So no going back and forth between them and "us". Once they register then they are officially on that side, with those dogs...So why hide it that they are there? Who are they trying to impress in the Havanese community if they are with the HSDA? It shouldnt matter since they can not participate in breedings with us. As I told my friend, whatever your decision is, great! But dont lie to me about it.

My biggest issues are with 
A) How the situation was handled...
B) Some of the crazy lies I have heard come right out of some of the HSDA peoples mouth. 
C) The people not admitting they are with the HSDA. Afraid of backlash? From who???? From those active in a breed they no longer want to be involved in? I say if you feel so strongly in what you are doing, then there should be no problems.


----------



## juniormint

Melissa Miller said:


> The accusations do upset me. A lot of people have worked hard to breed healthy dogs for them to make out our dogs to be so plagued with problems. I think their website is very insulting to Havanese dogs and breeders. For _some _of them to act so perfect as if they do not breed dogs with problems or health issues knowing they have skeletons in the closet, drives me bonkers. I do think a lot of this has to do with ego and money.
> 
> I cant say I would recommend someone supporting them, but I do not know. From my understanding the bitches and stud dogs are only allowed to breed with other HSDA dogs once they are registered. So no going back and forth between them and "us". Once they register then they are officially on that side, with those dogs...So why hide it that they are there? Who are they trying to impress in the Havanese community if they are with the HSDA? It shouldnt matter since they can not participate in breedings with us. As I told my friend, whatever your decision is, great! But dont lie to me about it.
> 
> My biggest issues are with
> A) How the situation was handled...
> B) Some of the crazy lies I have heard come right out of some of the HSDA peoples mouth.
> C) The people not admitting they are with the HSDA. Afraid of backlash? From who???? From those active in a breed they no longer want to be involved in? I say if you feel so strongly in what you are doing, then there should be no problems.


And a lot of breeders haven't done what they should have to protect this breed from health problems. I suspect these were the vocal minority that helped instigate the split. So painting the breed as a majority of breeders trying to do the right thing COULD be as incorrect as saying the breed is full of bad breeders breeding unhealthy dogs. I suspect it is somewhere in the middle.

I am on the yahoo lists and I see the threats of lawsuits and other terrible things people have said. I can totally understand why someone doesn't want the world to know right now. I don't believe the situation was handled as well as it could have, but the response back from the Havanse community isn't something to be proud of either.

I'd like to know the specific lies you've heard when you spoke to HSD members. I am disheartened to hear they are going out speaking to people and telling lies. I don't want to know who you spoke to, just the lies they said.


----------



## aradelat

I just would like to make a comment about the Havana Silk Dog name. It was used by the British who could not pronounce the true name of the Cuban dogs they imported. The TRUE name of this breed is Bichon Habanero. If anyone wanted to breed truly Cuban dogs they could call them Bichones Habaneros. 
And again, the dogs in Cuba are of several styles...some look like HSD and others like those "horrible" AZ dogs...


----------



## Havtahava

??? 

It all gets so confusing because I've heard that the true name is Bichon Havanese and the Bichon Habaneros is still a different breed from that.

All I do know for sure is that I have three happy, healthy Havanese bitches in my house and a bouncy, jubilant Hav puppy that can climb onto the sofa, too.


----------



## aradelat

You may be right, but I am under the impression that Bichon Havanese is a corruption of Bichon Habanero (Habanero means "from Havana" in Spanish)


----------



## juniormint

Isn't it funny how all this anger boils down to a name. A name they turned down in the first place. 

I absolutely believe most of the good Havanese breeders like Kimberly don't really care about all this. I bet she'll continue to do what she's always done and let the mean people keep fighting. I don't think this will affect anyone. 

I should also remind us the HSDAA never said they want to look like current Cuban dogs. They said they wanted to go back to the original dog of Cuba.


----------



## Doggie Nut

All I can say on this is that I LOVE MY HAVANESE & I AM SO GLAD I AM NOT A BREEDER RIGHT NOW! God bless those that are!


----------



## mckennasedona

> a bouncy, jubilant Hav puppy that can climb onto the sofa, too.


So Kimberly, where's a new photo of that bouncy, jubilant Hav puppy??

(this thread is just as bouncy......it disappears and then it pops up again)


----------



## Havtahava

> You may be right, but I am under the impression that Bichon Havanese is a corruption of Bichon Habanero (Habanero means "from Havana" in Spanish)


Ahhhhhhh, see, now THAT is the kind of stuff that I find interesting (word origins). Thank you for sharing that. I just thought the Bichon Habanero meant they were hot little dogs. LOL! (Like the habanero peppers) ound:


----------



## Havtahava

I'll get right on that Susan! (puppy pix)


----------



## Thumper

I dont' think it just boils down to a name.

I think some things on the HSD website are just worded very poorly. Instead of pointing out that alot of problems come from backyard breeders or mills, it implies that anyone breeding Havanese doesn't care about health, legs, eyes, or appearance, etc. and are "deceptive" if they also describe the Hav if they refer to Havana silk, which is listed even on dictionary sites as an alternative name.

If I would have read that site when researching the breed, honestly...I may have been scared away.

I don't doubt that the HSD breeders are passionate about their dogs and breeding healthy puppies. I'm certain they will breed wonderful pets, but is it really necessary to annihilate everyone that breeds Havanese?

And after looking at several HSD breeder's websites, and comparing pictures of their dogs...I still don't see a "common" look. There are obvious differences between some of the breeding stock that even an untrained eye can see, ie. tail touching back, round eyes, etc.. The things that they are "breeding away from". That is, assuming they are breeding all of their dogs to HSD, or only the few that make the cut.

Kara


----------



## Asia's mommy

Thumperlove, that was exactly what I meant, when you were saying being scared away from the breed. And I totally agree about the puppy mills and people who just breed the crap out of there dogs, this is probably the majority of the problem. A reputable breeder would never sell a dog like some I have seen on there HSD web sight.


----------



## aradelat

*original cuban dog*



juniormint said:


> Isn't it funny how all this anger boils down to a name. A name they turned down in the first place.
> 
> I absolutely believe most of the good Havanese breeders like Kimberly don't really care about all this. I bet she'll continue to do what she's always done and let the mean people keep fighting. I don't think this will affect anyone.
> 
> I should also remind us the HSDAA never said they want to look like current Cuban dogs. They said they wanted to go back to the original dog of Cuba.


The original Cuban dog was the Blanquito de la Habana, a tiny (less than 5 lbs) white (and only white) dog whose fur was much more like a poodles. That's the orginal Cuban dog (gone now) -- and nothing like an HDS....


----------



## marjrc

_"The only thing that bothers me is how it seems to make pet people feel that they have the "inferior", and less "pure" version if they do not have the Havana Silk dog. "_

I agree with you, Kara, that that is what the HSD website implies. They use words like "plagued" with serious health issues, and "deceptive" and "Everything else is pretty much a crap shoot."

I think it does scare 'newbies' away from the Havanese and makes them think there has to be something wrong with our breed, but that those things aren't present in the HSD. Is that really true? Fair? Scientifically proven? I dont' know.

Saying that, though, I also believe that some of the breeders that are now only part of HSDAA are very good breeders! I dont' know any personally, but from what I've read, I wouldn't hesitate to get a puppy from them, nor would I from some of the amazing, devoted Havanese breeders I've come to know. In my books, I'd still call them both Havanese though. :biggrin1: I wouldn't care what any "papers" say because I'm looking for a wonderful pet, with as few health issues as possible and one that suits our lifestyle.

As Vicki has said, it's got to be tough on many breeders who are taking this as an attack on our wonderful breed. It can be quite scary, too, for those that are planning on entering the breeding world!


----------



## juniormint

aradelat said:


> The original Cuban dog was the Blanquito de la Habana, a tiny (less than 5 lbs) white (and only white) dog whose fur was much more like a poodles. That's the orginal Cuban dog (gone now) -- and nothing like an HDS....


This is what the HSDAA website says

After careful; consideration, the charter members of the HSDAA intentionally chose the name "Havana Silk Dog" because it is the phenotype of that particular dog (*as it existed in the 1800s*) which HSDAA is dedicated to preserving through deliberate genetic selection.

The name "Havanese" was never used in Cuba, nor is it used there today. It was apparently coined sometime in the 1970s in the US, and it is worth remembering that it is the Havanese breed which was accepted into the AKC Miscellaneous Class in 1995, not the Havana Silk Dog.


----------



## aradelat

*Not an 18th Century dog...*



juniormint said:


> This is what the HSDAA website says
> 
> After careful; consideration, the charter members of the HSDAA intentionally chose the name "Havana Silk Dog" because it is the phenotype of that particular dog (*as it existed in the 1800s*) which HSDAA is dedicated to preserving through deliberate genetic selection.
> 
> The name "Havanese" was never used in Cuba, nor is it used there today. It was apparently coined sometime in the 1970s in the US, and it is worth remembering that it is the Havanese breed which was accepted into the AKC Miscellaneous Class in 1995, not the Havana Silk Dog.


The Cuban dog of the 18th Century was not a Havana Silk Dog but the original dog, the Blanquito de la Habana, and looks nothing like the HSD.
Here's a good Cuban website to explain it all http://www.bichonhavanais.be/en/4_habanero.php


----------



## chrismom

Junior mint said- And a lot of breeders haven't done what they should have to protect this breed from health problems.

My response- 
This might be true, but obviously this is not true for all Havanese breeders, and I think their club website implies that.

Take a look at other breeds websites- they do not promote their breed by degrading another breed. 

Havanese in general, are actually quite a healthy breed. If you personally know of a large amount of unhealthy ones then maybe those lines are the ones to stay away from. I know of a large amount of very healthy Havanese.
All good breeders of all breeds work hard to improve their breed, including health. If there are any not doing so- then they are just not a good breeder- this has nothing to do with whether they are affiliated with Havanese though. This is typical in all breeds- period. DO you have any real experience with any other breed? If they split into another breed- and they do become an AkC recognized breed- then once they do that they will no longer be allowed to make the strict decisions they want to now. If any of the problems they are talking about are in their genes- and they will be, eventually those problems can come back again. Then if they have no control- which is just how it is, once you go AKC, then BAD breeders could breed lots of Havana Silk DOgs with all kinds of problems, then it goes on and on. There is no permanent real solution to force people to be good breeders. Society can't even force people to be good parents-lol!

The only real thing that can be done to encourage breeders to do the right thing is educate, including educating the puppy buying public. I think in general the Havanese club has done a very good job at that. In general, the type of people looking for Havanese seem to be more knowledgeable about the breed and concerned with health testing than the average puppy buyer in general- that is great! There is no way to guarantee anything- period. It is just wishful thinking!


----------



## Thumper

Why not Tyrannosaurus Rex? 1800's.... Cretaceous period? What's the diff?

Its a cool *extinct* name.

I'd buy one! 

hehe.

Seriously, though. Is that even allowed? To use a name of an extinct animal? Has that *ever* been done before?


----------



## juniormint

aradelat said:


> The Cuban dog of the 18th Century was not a Havana Silk Dog but the original dog, the Blanquito de la Habana, and looks nothing like the HSD.
> Here's a good Cuban website to explain it all http://www.bichonhavanais.be/en/4_habanero.php


From that website:

Thus, the Bichón Habanero originated in the 19th century as a result of crossing the Blanquito de la Habana and the poodle or caniche. Nevertheless, it should be remembered that, like Cubans themselves, it is the outcome of a variety of antecedents. It is the unobjectionable Cuban interpretation of the Bichon lapdog so popular in the Old World from the time of the Renaissance.

The Bichon Habanero is a small and vigorous dog, gay, lively and intelligent. Unlike the square -bodied Poodle and similar to the Blanquito, it is longer than it is tall and is covered with a profuse coat of long, soft, wavy hair that may be any colour or combination of colours, though the most frequent are ivory and champagne.

It carries its tail high, like a plume curled over the rump. A curtain of hair covers its eyes, protecting them from the intense solar rays of the tropics. Although many people in Cuba have the habit of clipping the Bichon, it has been proven that the abundant coat is what protects it from the penetrating sun.

The Bichon Habanero is very alert, extremely affectionate curious, willing, playful and attentive, always ready to follow its master's orders. It is an enthusiastic participant in all family activities and generally the centre of them.

it would appear there is some consistancy to their argument as well as yours.


----------



## aradelat

*very small dog*



juniormint said:


> From that website:
> 
> Thus, the Bichón Habanero originated in the 19th century as a result of crossing the Blanquito de la Habana and the poodle or caniche. Nevertheless, it should be remembered that, like Cubans themselves, it is the outcome of a variety of antecedents. It is the unobjectionable Cuban interpretation of the Bichon lapdog so popular in the Old World from the time of the Renaissance.
> 
> The Bichon Habanero is a small and vigorous dog, gay, lively and intelligent. Unlike the square -bodied Poodle and similar to the Blanquito, it is longer than it is tall and is covered with a profuse coat of long, soft, wavy hair that may be any colour or combination of colours, though the most frequent are ivory and champagne.
> 
> It carries its tail high, like a plume curled over the rump. A curtain of hair covers its eyes, protecting them from the intense solar rays of the tropics. Although many people in Cuba have the habit of clipping the Bichon, it has been proven that the abundant coat is what protects it from the penetrating sun.
> 
> The Bichon Habanero is very alert, extremely affectionate curious, willing, playful and attentive, always ready to follow its master's orders. It is an enthusiastic participant in all family activities and generally the centre of them.
> 
> it would appear there is some consistancy to their argument as well as yours.


What you didn't post is that the Blanquito's was six inches of less in length and had tiny legs. It may be an ancestor to the Havanese, but in no way is a Havana Silk Dog....


----------



## juniormint

chrismom said:


> Junior mint said- And a lot of breeders haven't done what they should have to protect this breed from health problems.
> 
> My response-
> This might be true, but obviously this is not true for all Havanese breeders, and I think their club website implies that.


I think it speaks volumes for the HSDAA to take such a proactive stance. They HCA couldn't even agree if the problems facing it were the results of genetics. Even now, there isn't a health page up on the HCA website.

And if the HCA was so interested in health why isn't bowed legs a DQ? And why do they only require a dog to be tested and not actually PASS the test to get a CHIC number? Why are they the only breed in the AKC to allow a CHIC number for a dog who failed one of the prescribed tests?

I don't think the HCA is doing or has done all they can for the health of this breed. I still think it's buyer beware when someone goes to purchase a havanese. I think the public WILL be drawn to the HSDAA since they APPEAR to be the health nazis. Frankly, I was burned on my first Havanese. My next dog will be an HSD. I'll have one of each! Talk about living on the fence.:whoo:


----------



## irnfit

If you look at the photo of the dog on that link, it looks just like my Kodi. He carries his tail in a plume and he has a profuse coat of soft, wavy hair, which some would call champagne colored. He is lively and intelligent. So, guess he is a true Bichon Habanero, or maybe just a Havanese. I know he is not a HSD.

The Bichon Habanero is also called the Havanese, aka the Havana Silk Dog. You would think the HSDAA wouldn't want to use that name since it is associated with such a sickly dog.


----------



## Thumper

Juniormint,

Are you implying that the HCA knowingly condoned breeders to breed Havanese with health problems and the breeders listed there breed unhealthy pups?

Kara


----------



## chrismom

Juniormint- Sorry to hear about your first Havanese- that is a shame!
Hope all goes well with your next dog, no matter where you get it. ANd yes, it does sound like they want to take a proactive approach to health, and that is good! What I am trying to get you to understand is- that that is how it works when a breed is a rare breed- the parent club can make different rules, my point is that once they go AKC- and that is what they say they want- then they no longer have that ability to make rules like that. Anyone can breed what ever and register them, that is how it works. Not that I agree- but that is how it is!

Also, sorry but you are mistaken on the whole CHIC thing- this is how CHIC works- period- for all breeds. The parent club that decides to participate, decides on the required tests, then thats it- it never matters whether or not they pass. I personally don't agree with this- but that is how CHIC does work. It is meant to encourage people to use health databases to gather health info- good or bad. I dunno- thinking about that- yes that is good. 

Also, another thing that you don't understand. No breed is allowed to make any type of referance to health stuff in a standard- that is according to AKC rules- period! Also, AKC has become very strict on the format that they will allow, and do not like to approve any type of DQs.

Hmmmm, HCA did always have a health page- I have read it before. I guess it is under revision. I have to say- especially right now- I do think that it needs to be back up and running ASAP. But they always did have one and am sure will again soon.

Once a club is AKC recognized they can not make rules to make the breeders of the breed do any specific tests, period. This is up to individuals. Anything any individual breeder does or doesn't do is not the fault of the HCA. Right now- if they are trying to start a new breed they can make rules like that, but if they get AKC recognized then they no longer can either- that is just how the AKC is. This is one reason some did not want Havanese to go AKC as early as they did. THey did not feel the breed was ready and knew that the parent club powers would no longer exist.

These are the things that are how the whole dog world works. Not just in the Havanese breed. This was why I was asking what your experience was in dogs, purebred dogs, other breeds. Not to sound mean, or try to come across like that or something, but if you aren't aware of some things then you might think that it is the fault of the club, when really there is nothing the club can do.

Honestly, I do think that the Havana Silk dog people are marketing masters, and doing a great job of it. THere dogs are not some kind of genetically perfect dogs, they are just a different type of Havanese, and they are planning to do a good job of health stuff. But so are other Havanese people too. It is sad that you were burned, but that is not everyone.


----------



## juniormint

Before I made my HSD decision I actually called the Canine Health Information Center. The lady that answered the phone told me the havanese was the only breed they worked with where the parent club didn't require a passing score to get a CHIC number. That's when I made my decision.

I also called my "new" breeder and he agreed with you. When the HSD becomes a recognized breed, registration will only be on pedigree. He said that's why they are wanting to wait a few generations before applying to be a breed. They are hoping to selectively breed away from some of these health issues before they have to take dogs just on pedigree. He also said the way the DQ would work is if they say the dog is DQ'd for not having straight forelegs. Then the judges have to check and it isn't a health issue in the standard. I think he thinks I'm crazy for calling him so often.

Chrismom, you seem like a nice person. i'm sure you aren't one of the bad havanese breeders at all. Thanks for your kind words.


----------



## Dawna

Juniormint,
The people who are forming the HSD basically ran every aspect of the HCA for years. Ask anyone who belongs to HCA. If the HCA is lacking, the bulk of the blame MUST fall on their shoulders. 
If they are going to base their standard on the 'original Cuban dog', they need to get a new drawing for their website. The one they are using looks about as much like the HSD they are describing as a flying squirrel.
Dawna


----------



## irnfit

I was just on the HCA website yesterday, and the health page was still there.
However, I just went on it, and it is "under revision". I guess they are taking what we say seriously. I would still like to see these health related issues on the website, but in order of importance, and also more about all the strides made in breeding away from the problems.


----------



## Doggie Nut

I agree with Dawna.....I had the same thought which is the people you are blaming for not doing their job with HCA and the website,health page etc. are the same ones leaving to establish this new breed. I don't know who all those people are but I get the feeling they had a major "voice" in HCA. So why didn't they see that it got done? Not criticizing just asking.


----------



## chrismom

Juniormint- 

Honestly you are wrong about the CHIC thing, my "other" breed is also a CHIC breed too. None have to pass. If someone there told you so, you must have accidently missunderstood them.

This is just one of the answers ON the CHIC site that addresses this. It is also on the CHIC info page:

Do test results have to be normal?
No, CHIC is not about normalcy. CHIC is meant to encourage health testing and sharing of all results, normal and abnormal, so that more informed breeding decisions can be made in an overall effort to reduce the incidence of genetic disease and improve canine health.

All sounds good as far as DQs go, but I do know people who have worked recently with standard revisions, the AKC has made it very difficult to allow new DQs that do not already exist. Once a commitee gets a standard together, etc, the AKC has to make the final decision. Even the format must now adhere to very strict guidelines. In the past it wasn't so, but it is now.

I'm glad you are comfortable with this new breeder, and I'm sure they are testing and doing all that they can right, but the whole point is that their dogs too are out of the exactly same bloodlines to begin with. Breeders who have been working on improving health will have better results than those that have not, this is very true. But the bad genes are in their lines too. Sure, hopefully diluted a lot, just like any good breeder, but the same genes are there too. These dogs are completely out of the same dogs to begin with. I think they are trying to make it appear that the Havanese are of a different bloodline than the Havana Silk dogs, like somehow one "breed(and I hate to use that term right now)" is out of a certain lineage, and the other is out of not so good ones. That was my point the other day- they have the same exact pedigrees- period!

There is all this talk about breeding bowed legged dogs- it sounds like they are implying that some Havanese breeders think that is good. I, personally would be very curious to hear who thinks that way. I have never met any Havanese person that thinks bowed legs is something to breed. Strange! 

Sure, probably some idiots don't care at all, but in an AKC recognized breed no one can stop that. And probably in the beginning some had not so good conformation, and some could even have had bowed legs, but anyone who is a good breeder would breed away from that. I have never heard of any Havanese person that says they would breed that. If I am wrong- please let me know who they are- just curious.


----------



## irnfit

Somewhere way back in this thread, I asked te same question. The answer I was given was that they tried to get things changed for 8 years, and no one would listen to them. Then, my question was, why did they wait 8 years. Why not 2 yrs, 4 yrs. I don't know if I ever got an answer to that one.


----------



## chrismom

Yes, but they tried to do what for 8 years?
Make people listen? To exactly what? SOme of what theyare unhappy about has nothing to do with health, although they seem to be good at getting public outcry that way. 

Havanese breeders- good havanese breeders, do a great job of health testing and makiing great strides in health. Take a look at some other breeeds. Havanese at one time had terrible eyes from cataracts- sure they still exist, but the incidence is very small now, one of the better breeds. That is progress. Finding other issues too- it always takes time to get people to do whatever, but in general Havanese people do a great job!!!

Prior to going AKC, the Havanese breeders did a great job with patellas. I groom, and it is amazing how many small breeds you can easily tell have patella problems, it is sad. Havanese are great that way too. 

Just look at temperaments- in general- I think Havanese have by far the best temperament of all small breeds- that is great!

If anyone wants to have a new breed- that is one thing- but to degrade the Havanese people- the Havanese breed- that is what is wrong. Sounds too much like a marketing ploy. I wonder- are they claiming that their new breed will not have health problems? That could not be true-period.

If they want to have a breed, and do a great job with testing, etc. that is wonderful, I wish them luck, and hey- maybe that would be a cool thing too. But to say they are not from the same heritage is crazy- and that is how the website appears.


----------



## juniormint

chrismom said:


> Yes, but they tried to do what for 8 years?
> Make people listen? To exactly what? SOme of what theyare unhappy about has nothing to do with health, although they seem to be good at getting public outcry that way.
> 
> Havanese breeders- good havanese breeders, do a great job of health testing and makiing great strides in health. Take a look at some other breeeds. Havanese at one time had terrible eyes from cataracts- sure they still exist, but the incidence is very small now, one of the better breeds. That is progress. Finding other issues too- it always takes time to get people to do whatever, but in general Havanese people do a great job!!!
> 
> Prior to going AKC, the Havanese breeders did a great job with patellas. I groom, and it is amazing how many small breeds you can easily tell have patella problems, it is sad. Havanese are great that way too.
> 
> Just look at temperaments- in general- I think Havanese have by far the best temperament of all small breeds- that is great!
> 
> If anyone wants to have a new breed- that is one thing- but to degrade the Havanese people- the Havanese breed- that is what is wrong. Sounds too much like a marketing ploy. I wonder- are they claiming that their new breed will not have health problems? That could not be true-period.
> 
> If they want to have a breed, and do a great job with testing, etc. that is wonderful, I wish them luck, and hey- maybe that would be a cool thing too. But to say they are not from the same heritage is crazy- and that is how the website appears.


When I asked my breeder about the health part, he said they were starting this breed because their dogs look different. He said while they were starting a registry they decided to put health qualifications as well as phenotype qualifications because they wanted to set the bar high. He said starting the new breed had nothing to do with health, it had to do with look. I have to tell you, I've visited his house and I like the way his dogs look. I love the flat single coats especially.

he also told me he has lots of friends who breed havanese and do health testing. He said they are great breeders and just have a different vision for their dogs. he said there wasn't anything wrong with their dogs.


----------



## whitBmom

Okay, so let me get this straight. This "whole" HSD thing is based on looks? And yet the funny thing is is that there seems to be endless mention about how bad the health in Havanese are!! Barb, you are getting a puppy, and that is wonderful, but what I don't get is why you insist on going on and on about how unhealthy our Havanese are! 

What ticks me off, is all the slamming that is taking place and then the simple explanation that its only a "look" thing!! I'm sorry but that is ridiculous!! :frusty:


----------



## Dawna

Hmmmmm, in the beginning of this thread, I thought it was all about health?
Looks were secondary. 
Contradictions out the wazoo. :suspicious:


----------



## chrismom

very well said!!! Exactly!!!

I personally feel that it is a marketing ploy- slam the competition and market the "new and improved one" 
It is kinda strange that this all came about right when the Havanese are getting to be known more, and maybe heading toward a more common thing at the same time that "different" is in- as in the "designer-Breeds, (and I hate to use that term there)

If it is a look someone likes then so be it- but in reading all of the stuff- they imply that that is not what it is all about- they seem to go back and forth. 

It is funny though- I went to their website- and looked at the breeders sites, then I looked at their pedigrees- funny, but they have all the same dogs as my Havanese do, hmmmmmm, including that "rags girl" dog that they are slamming, hmmmmm, sounds a bit funny.


----------



## Julie

Barb(Juniormint)
Sounds like your getting a hs puppy from Greg...........from reading your posts........................................................................................why didn't you just say so from the start?Your posts sound exactly like Greg.They are nice dogs.We are not into games here---or I'm not.


----------



## juniormint

I can't see how me not mentioning who I'm getting my dog from is a game. But now I guess it's obvious why I wouldn't want to mention it. Without even knowing who I'm purchasing from you accuse me of playing games. 

I haven't totally settled on WHO I'm getting my dog from. When I do I'll be sure to post it though.


----------



## Julie

I do not care WHO you get your dog from....it will not change my life at all.Your posts however sound just like Greg's posts....so,I assumed.Sorry if I assumed wrong,or not------You are the only one though who has sounded just like Greg.Nice guy,but I know he can handle his own.....eace:


----------



## JASHavanese

juniormint said:


> And if the HCA was so interested in health why isn't bowed legs a DQ? And why do they only require a dog to be tested and not actually PASS the test to get a CHIC number? Why are they the only breed in the AKC to allow a CHIC number for a dog who failed one of the prescribed tests?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Bowed legs are a DQ. I love the CHIC testing and will try to explain why. When our dogs get their CHIC numbers it means we've done their health testing as recommended by the HCA. The results are posted on the offa.org site for all to see. If you see a dog that has only part of their results then chances are they failed the other testing. Why else would the information not be released? So the answers to the health questions you seek are right there.
> If there was no CHIC, then you wouldn't know if a dog had it's hips done and failed them, but if there's a CHIC number and no results for hips that's a huge red flag.


----------



## tejanoHavs

juniormint said:


> Before I made my HSD decision I actually called the Canine Health Information Center. The lady that answered the phone told me the havanese was the only breed they worked with where the parent club didn't require a passing score to get a CHIC number. That's when I made my decision.
> 
> I also called my "new" breeder and he agreed with you. When the HSD becomes a recognized breed, registration will only be on pedigree. He said that's why they are wanting to wait a few generations before applying to be a breed. They are hoping to selectively breed away from some of these health issues before they have to take dogs just on pedigree. He also said the way the DQ would work is if they say the dog is DQ'd for not having straight forelegs. Then the judges have to check and it isn't a health issue in the standard. I think he thinks I'm crazy for calling him so often.
> 
> Chrismom, you seem like a nice person. i'm sure you aren't one of the bad havanese breeders at all. Thanks for your kind words.


OK now I understand 

Let me help get the entire story out there. You can call your new breeder, but I expect he is a relative new comer. Nothing wrong with newbies except they don't have the entire history available sometimes.

If you had asked Joanne Baldwin (who was President of the HCA) or Diane Klumb (who was recording secretary of the HCA) or even me (who was on the board as a director) at the time the CHIC requirements were implemented by the HCA membership you would have learned:

1. The proposed health tests to be done were placed on the agenda for a vote at the annual meeting of the entire HCA membership. The persons placing them on the agenda and ballot were Diane Klumb and Joanne Baldwin. The 4 tests proposed were BAER testing, OFA patellas, OFA hips and annual CERF.

2. At the annual HCA membership meeting, this was discussed (discussion led by Joanne Baldwin and Diane Klumb) and they recommended that the CHIC be used as an incentive to simply test and have people disclose the health testing results that they had...whether those were good or bad. Members did have 3 choices on the ballot....to implement the 4 CHIC tests and require passing results in order to receive a CHIC #, to implement the 4 tests and not require passing results in order to receive a CHIC# or to not pursue CHIC participation at all.

What passed by membership vote was to do exactly what was recommended by those placing the item on the agenda and to implement the 4 tests required for CHIC but to not require a passing test result in order to encourage health testing in general. Remember....this was several years ago when little health testing was done other than annual CERFs.

3. At the same annual meeting, the same individuals proposed also creating an HCA 4 star award, requiring the same 4 health tests but also requiring that the dogs actually pass those tests.

4. The intent with CHIC was to encourage more open registry of health testing on the entire Havanese breed (a good thing for breeders who are trying to learn what health issues might lurk in certain lines they are considering in upcoming breedings). Remember OFA hips were not routinely done, BAER testing was not routinely done, etc.

5. The intent with the 4 star awards was more of a "good housekeeping seal of approval". Not much different from HSDAA's "novel" idea of health tested dogs. In reality...nothing more than a sales tool.

So what has happened in the meantime (other than certain HSDAA folks....the same ones who proposed all of this for HCA and never suggested any changes there...are now appalled that Havanese is the ONLY breed who does not require passing results for a CHIC #)?

Well, the proof is in the pudding they say  In 2001, we only had OFA hips tested on 31 Havs during that year. From there it went to 65 done in 2002, 89 in 2003, 196 in 2004, 257 in 2005, and 332 in 2006. We've grown our OFA database on hips alone from 36 to 1035 in 5 years!!! That's pretty significant I'd say for the health of the HAVANESE breed. No one group of people, no one breeder can corner the market on that brag and promote themselves as being the "elite" group or breeder who health tests and cares. Nope, that brag belongs to the ENTIRE HAVANESE community. eace: Maybe HSDAA would like to publish those facts on its website?

Sorry if that was ugly in tone...I'm just a little tired of revisionist history.


----------



## Julie

juniormint said:


> Before I made my HSD decision I actually called the Canine Health Information Center. The lady that answered the phone told me the havanese was the only breed they worked with where the parent club didn't require a passing score to get a CHIC number. That's when I made my decision.
> 
> I also called my "new" breeder and he agreed with you.
> 
> :biggrin1: This could be the reason it looks like you decided on a breeder..........:biggrin1:


----------



## Julie

juniormint said:


> When I asked my breeder about the health part, he said they were starting this breed because their dogs look different. He said while they were starting a registry they decided to put health qualifications as well as phenotype qualifications because they wanted to set the bar high. He said starting the new breed had nothing to do with health, it had to do with look. I have to tell you, I've visited his house and I like the way his dogs look. I love the flat single coats especially.
> 
> he also told me he has lots of friends who breed havanese and do health testing. He said they are great breeders and just have a different vision for their dogs. he said there wasn't anything wrong with their dogs.


:biggrin1: Or perhaps this............:biggrin1:


----------



## tejanoHavs

irnfit said:


> I was just on the HCA website yesterday, and the health page was still there.
> However, I just went on it, and it is "under revision". I guess they are taking what we say seriously. I would still like to see these health related issues on the website, but in order of importance, and also more about all the strides made in breeding away from the problems.


You could say that "someone" might have mentioned it....grin. Yes, what you say here is very important :ear: . The HCA website is dated in several sections and in the case of the health section the decision was made by the HCA health committee that a short period of time with no info available would be better than what was up there previously. I don't think it will take too long before some summary info reappears and then it will finally be fully developed sometime after that. Numbers and data provided will be factual and will point out that the Havanese breed, HCA and reputable breeders are all very proactive when it comes to health testing and working towards breeding healthy dogs.

My friends in other breeds think that Havanese folks are crazy :crazy:already for all the health testing we do <g>. That's OK...we like it that way!


----------



## Julie

I really could care less Barb(Juniormint) if you get a cocker spaniel or a pit bull or something in between,but being honest is important.Perhaps you mistyped---but I DID NOT mis-read.In these posts you say you have a breeder,or how could you talk to HIM?Now you haven't decided?Whatever.......seems like you have decided.....good luck to ya!eace: 

If you talk to Greg.....tell him hi!:wave::biggrin1:


----------



## tejanoHavs

chrismom said:


> Juniormint-
> 
> Honestly you are wrong about the CHIC thing, my "other" breed is also a CHIC breed too. None have to pass. If someone there told you so, you must have accidently missunderstood them.
> 
> This is just one of the answers ON the CHIC site that addresses this. It is also on the CHIC info page:
> 
> Do test results have to be normal?
> No, CHIC is not about normalcy. CHIC is meant to encourage health testing and sharing of all results, normal and abnormal, so that more informed breeding decisions can be made in an overall effort to reduce the incidence of genetic disease and improve canine health.
> 
> All sounds good as far as DQs go, but I do know people who have worked recently with standard revisions, the AKC has made it very difficult to allow new DQs that do not already exist. Once a commitee gets a standard together, etc, the AKC has to make the final decision. Even the format must now adhere to very strict guidelines. In the past it wasn't so, but it is now.
> 
> I'm glad you are comfortable with this new breeder, and I'm sure they are testing and doing all that they can right, but the whole point is that their dogs too are out of the exactly same bloodlines to begin with. Breeders who have been working on improving health will have better results than those that have not, this is very true. But the bad genes are in their lines too. Sure, hopefully diluted a lot, just like any good breeder, but the same genes are there too. These dogs are completely out of the same dogs to begin with. I think they are trying to make it appear that the Havanese are of a different bloodline than the Havana Silk dogs, like somehow one "breed(and I hate to use that term right now)" is out of a certain lineage, and the other is out of not so good ones. That was my point the other day- they have the same exact pedigrees- period!


Yes....all of this is so true! CHIC allows each parent club to choose whether or not to require passing results on certain tests (or all tests) that the parent club deems necessary for a CHIC #.

You're also correct in saying that AKC has very strict guidelines for standards and does not encourage the use of DQs.

And finally, amen sister to the fact that HSD ancestors are the same dogs as Havanese ancestors. In fact, I think when the foundation dogs for the HSD are made public that we will all be able to see that they may not be the healthiest of dogs themselves. Or perhaps they have not produced the healthiest of dogs. In fact...they might just be normal :brick: Like most Havanese, they may have actually produced a health issue or two or even have one themselves.


----------



## Julie

Cherie,
Yes........isn't that something?Those HS foundation dogs have the same lineage as all our havanese!How can a group spin that?ound: 


Is there any so-called Havana Silks that are not black?I have not seen one that had the flat coat in any color but black?Just curious if any one has seen one as I thought the breeding was to get back to the original Cuban breed,a WHITE /CREME dog?:biggrin1: eace:


----------



## tejanoHavs

Julie said:


> Cherie,
> Yes........isn't that something?Those HS foundation dogs have the same lineage as all our havanese!How can a group spin that?ound:
> 
> Is there any so-called Havana Silks that are not black?I have not seen one that had the flat coat in any color but black?Just curious if any one has seen one as I thought the breeding was to get back to the original Cuban breed,a WHITE /CREME dog?:biggrin1: eace:


You know, Julie...it beats me. Remember that they won't make public the dogs in their registry (too easy that way to defeat the health claims with facts from public health databases which conveniently show us the vertical pedigrees of what those dogs have produced in their offspring). They claim that even AKC doesn't do that, but actually, you can go to the AKC store and as part of the ordering process for an online pedigree you can type in the name and breed of any dog you might be wondering about. If that registered name is found within the breed, you will receive summary info about it's date of birth, color etc and can order a pedigree for more complete info.

Now, we can see a few HSD puppy sellers listed on their website and can in turn go to their websites. But we would have to guess about which of their dogs might eventually be accepted into the registry as HSDs.

I personally don't think you will find many creams, whites, fawns, golds or reds included. Most will be black or variations on that theme if I had to guess since the vast majority will be descended from Charly who is black.


----------



## chrismom

Just another mention- Havanese is NOT the only breed not requiring a pass to get a CHIC number- in fact that is not the intention of CHIC.

Finland has an awesome database- I'll have to post a link later- it is so cool- you can see where problems are - that is how you can avoid them, much better than just good results posted. Of coarse we want the dogs to pass, but if they don't the info is great. That is how good breeders make good choices, by knowing more about the dogs.


----------



## Thumper

Julie said:


> Cherie,
> Is there any so-called Havana Silks that are not black?I have not seen one that had the flat coat in any color but black?Just curious if any one has seen one as I thought the breeding was to get back to the original Cuban breed,a WHITE /CREME dog?:biggrin1: eace:


I've wondered the *SAME* thing?

White/Cream dogs ROCK, btw!!:rockon: I know one of the HSD breeders has a white/cream, but I don't know if she made the cut to HSD.

Like....this dog below, is on one of the HSD breeder's websites, the tail isn't anything like the HSD illustration? I'm not "dissing" anyone at ALL, just looking for a common look! I'm adding a link instead of the pics (not sure if I can use the pics):

http://www.felizhavanese.com/cj_ukc_ch.htm

I'm trying to see a common "look" on the HSD Breeder's websites, and I just can't....except for the fact they are mostly black, or variations thereof.


----------



## chrismom

I think CHarly is one of the main things in this NEW breed. I don't know enough about him. If he has any issues, they are going to be in trouble down the line. Looks like from looking at his offspring that he is very pre-potent and that is the LOOK they like. Hey- more power to them, just how they are slamming all the rest is my issue.

What is funny though- and looking through all their websites it appears that he will be a big part of the NEW breed, it is funny though how in his pedigree it is mostly the same dogs they are talking bad about. Even the majority of the oversees dogs- were imported from here, same pedigrees as everyone else. And that chocolate bitch they are talking about- Rags GIrl- is also in his pedigree. Its like if its in your pedigree it is bad- if its in ours its ok because we are "breeding away" from it. That is so nuts, from reading lots about this it seems that real dog people get it, and the pet people are the ones that it is affecting most, that is unfair. It is good that on this list though that there are pet people that reallly looki into things. Anything not good- good breeders are breeding away from, so what makes them so special.

They like Charly- and that look- period. And he is a mix of the types they are slamming (genotypically), hmmmmm


----------



## Tom King

I can tell you for a fact that there are two dogs in the foundation who are not black. One is a silver brindle and the other is a sable. Neither has Charly in their pedigree even though our line now does.

I can also tell you that these two dogs have produced 0.00% congenital health problems for 5 generations when Twinkle, the silver brindle, is on the bottom line of a pedigree. One of our males, who is a 4th generation down from Twinkle, did produce one bowed leg when bred to an outside female.


I can tell you that it is possible to select away from the "Arizona" dogs and consistantly produce dogs with no resemblence to them several generations down the line. I didn't call them Arizona dogs when we started our selection process in 1995 but it was pretty obvious to us that that phenotype did exist. I just called them "those coarse dogs". Not only were there breeders breeding them but some breeders had them not only mixed and matched in their breeding dogs but mixed and matched in their litters. It's easy to breed dogs selectively and get what you want even though it does require some luck and sticking to your guns for several generstions. Look at the breeders who are selecting for short muzzles.

I can tell you that it is possible to select only dogs with straight legs for breeding and produce only straight legged dogs. When we were first looking for a small breed because of our daughter one of my criteria was that it could not be a bow legged dog. Not that I had any clue that other bad stuff went along with bowed legs-I just don't like bowed legs. I first knew that some Havanese had bowed legs because our daughter told me. She was 8 years old. It took us roughly a year and a half to select our first dog to try as a foundation bitch. Long story short-here we are with 5 generations of straight legged, healthy dogs. No bow legged dog has ever been produced in our house.

I can also tell you that sometimes Mendalian genetics does work. Twinkle is closely linebred from a line that other breeders have had some problems with but she has produced none.

I can tell you these things because we have done them and the two foundation dogs I mentioned are the first two we started with.

This thing is a little over a month old and there is still DNA in the mail. To get in you have to care about what's under the fur and be willing to show it; there is no concern about who is doing health testing and who is not-if you are in the registry, you are doing the health testing; the standard won't be changed every few years to take in the way the dogs currently look; the evaluations, much like the inpections for the horses we breed, will carry more weight than any judge's opinion;all breeding dogs have to have DNA on the record-no puppy mill can pull names out of a show program and get puppies registered by those names. These are things that are important to me.


----------



## Tom King

Of all the puppies we have produced there is only one that we have lost touch with. It had something to do with the flood during Hurricane Floyd and we lost contact with that family then and have not heard anything from them in spite of our efforts to locate the family.

We evaluate all our puppies including soaped pictures. We still hear from owners with dogs who that are now 8 years old. Never have we had any indication of a congenital health problem.


----------



## dboudreau

Tom, I like your dogs and I admire your breeding program. As a outsider (Canadian) looking to start breeding some time in the future, would you consider your dogs Havanese or HSD? The CKC and AKC standard are different but I think the CKC is closer to the HSD? Any advice?


----------



## Tom King

edited to add: Reece in response to your last question:

I don't know the answer to that but I have seen young puppies with bowed legs. Actually a fair number back when we were first looking for our first one.

We have no indication that any dog we have ever produced has a bowed leg. When we were selecting our first ones not only did they have to have straight legs but their parents, that we could see, and so siblings in their litter. I think that increased our odds and I have heard no one else say that they did this. I have heard other breeders say they didn't know that they were breeding bowlegged dogs until it was pointed out to them. Conformation has been a regular topic in our household for decades.

If anyone who ever got a puppy from us who now has a bowed leg is out there, I invite them to come forward.


----------



## Tom King

dboudreau, All of our dogs are going into the HSD registry. Right now all of our dogs fit in both the current Havanese standard and the Havana Silk Dog standard. Assumptions about the HSD wanting longer legs and squarer outlines are just assumptions-not correct. They both call for equal legs even though it doesn't matter to half the judges. The current Havanese standard calls for slightly longer than tall and the HSD standard gives specific proportions (with an easy to measure method invented by a genius Cuban) that fit into "slightly longer than tall".

To me it's just a fork in the road. Anyone who breeds has to make these desicions for themselves. Our breeding program is a shoein fit for the Havana Silk Dog registry. We won't be doing anything different than we have been doing. I don't expect that the current standard for Havanese will stay where it is now for much longer and will once again be changed.


----------



## tejanoHavs

Tom King said:


> I can tell you for a fact that there are two dogs in the foundation who are not black. One is a silver brindle and the other is a sable. Neither has Charly in their pedigree even though our line now does.
> 
> I can also tell you that these two dogs have produced 0.00% congenital health problems for 5 generations when Twinkle, the silver brindle, is on the bottom line of a pedigree. One of our males, who is a 4th generation down from Twinkle, did produce one bowed leg when bred to an outside female.


Hi Tom,

Glad to hear there is a least a little sprinkle of color in HSDs other than black <vbg>. I'd still say the majority are black or black variations. Your stud should be a busy boy for those folks not wanting to lock themselves into producing black pups 

Your Twinkle is a pretty girl, but I'm a little confused with the health claims though. In searching the OFA I did see where Twinkle did indeed produce some health issues. 
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1193048#animal is a Twinkle daughter (out of a breeding to Salemi Charly) shown on the OFA database to have been diagnosed with punctate catrarcts at age 16 months back in 2005. There are no more recent CERFs to indicate that those cataracts might have resolved.

Another Twinkle daughter also is listed in OFA as having punctate cataracts http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1007445#animal . This one is from a different, much earlier breeding out of a Smallhaven sire. Her cataracts appeared much later in life, at the age of 6 years, but again there are no CERF updates since 2005.

I'm not sure how many puppies Twinkle may have produced in all her litters, but she only has a total of 7 offspring listed as being health tested there. Of those, two I already mentioned. Here's another http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1060026#animal who received a couple of HCA 4 star awards in recognition of passing required testing. Congrats  But this dog's last CERF was done in 2005 at the age of 4 years. Usually that makes me wonder why the annual testing was stopped...was there a problem or is there a logical reason? I do see that this same dog no longer is listed as having received a HCA 4 star award for health testing in 2005 though.

Another dog, owned by a breeder near you and shown to her championship, also has the same situation where CERF has not been registered since 2005. That info is here http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1066447#animal

So, in looking only at Twinkle's 7 pups listed on OFA health testing, 4 of them are a little questionable (and that doesn't even include looking at all pups who have Twinkle as their bottom bitch line). I'm not criticizing Twinkle herself....just your comment that she has produced 0% congenital health problems. And maybe there are good reasons for these exceptions, but to make a bold statement such as is made by HSD when many dogs do indeed have these health exceptions just leaves me confused.

I personally think Twinkle is just like so many other Havanese....is healthy herself, has produced a couple of health issues that are known, etc. But like most of the dogs I think will be in HSD, I feel it is outlandish to make claims of health records better than the Havanese breed as a whole. To me, that still sounds like a sales tool rather than reality.

Don't know which of your boys might be a foundation dog, since they both have Charly in their pedigrees. Again, my only point is that once the identities of the HSD foundation dogs are known, I think it will be pretty easy to see that they are just like many other Havanese dogs used in breeding who produce an occasional health issue or two. That wouldn't be a big deal at all if it weren't for the marketing technique being used for the HSD.

Have I produced a Hav with punctates? Yes....one...from a champion male I own (he is not from my breeding) and used at stud one time prior to neutering him. Does that make my dogs any different? I still don't think so...especially when I look at photos of that pretty girl Twinkle with her lovely profuse coat and a face that really doesn't resemble an HSD face to me. I'm just realistic enough to say that my dogs are normal and are not perfect.

Statements being made on other websites and by the HSD themselves about the superior health outlook for their breed simply need to stop. Those were silly claims to begin with and are designed to be defamatory to the Havanese breed as a whole. I'll close with this one from the HEART website which infers that ethical breeders who care about producing healthy dogs are now affliiated with HSD. Keep in mind that HEART's 3 directors are all heavily involved with HSD:

Those Havanese breeders and H.E.A.R.T. stalwarts who have poured so much of their time, energy, and money into this effort to produce healthier dogs decided, given the results of this research, they had only one ethical choice available to them. Details can be found at www.havanasilkdog.org., the website of the Havana Silk Dog Association.
​


----------



## dboudreau

Tom King said:


> The current Havanese standard calls for slightly longer than tall and the HSD standard gives specific proportions (with an easy to measure method invented by a genius Cuban) that fit into "slightly longer than tall".
> .


Where can I find the HSD standard? I have the FCI 1963 & Cuba Standard for 1990's I don't see proportions.


----------



## irnfit

As someone fairly new to this breed, can someone give me info on "Rags Girl". She keeps popping up on this thread, but I don't know anything about her. Thanks.


----------



## Melissa Miller

Well sense HEART is now pointing to the HSD website and it's obviously bashing our dogs, I am going to remove the link on the front page. 
I dont want to scare the crap out of potential puppy buyers who come to the forum.


----------



## Thumper

tejanoHavs said:


> Those Havanese breeders and H.E.A.R.T. stalwarts who have poured so much of their time, energy, and money into this effort to produce healthier dogs decided, given the results of this research, they had only one ethical choice available to them. Details can be found at www.havanasilkdog.org., the website of the Havana Silk Dog Association.
> ​


:jaw: :jaw: :jaw: :jaw: :jaw:


----------



## Dawna

I repeat :jaw: 
There isn't any way I can agree with what the HSD group has done up to this point. It's just wrong anyway you look at it.


----------



## mckennasedona

Wow, what a total slap in the face to all the Hav breeders who do health test their dogs (and have donated to HEART and publicized it on their web sites) The wording makes it sound like HSD breeders are the ONLY breeders who are ethical. What a shame. Can they be any more obnoxious about it? 

You know, if I decide to manufacture a new car because I want something that looks different from what's out there, my main marketing ploy would NOT be to tell potential buyers that Chevy, Toyota, Ford, BMW, etc. build total crap that will break down the first time you drive it and will probably kill you in the process. Nope, I'd simply point out the cool looking differences in my car. Something along the lines of "hey, all cars will get you safely from point A to point B but look at the cool shape, headlights, tail fins and stereo system in MY car!"

Susan


----------



## Tom King

It was explained to me by the opthamologist who did the exams that a punctate was not always a cataract. Notice that it says "breeder option". If it had been a cataract it would not have said "breeder option" according to the tester. It was explained that it was just a little dot and it has not changed since the first exam and that they are like the things in our eyes when we look up at the sky and see "floaters". The same goes for the other pup mentioned. None of these have progressed into cataracts, so I stand by my claim that there are no congenital health problems.

Twinkle's soaps at 10 1/2 years old: (tried to upload her soaped pictures and it looked like they went but didn't show up. She does meet the standard for the HSD although she does get marked down some from the ideal-I'll try again later to upload her soaped pictures) You can't hide what's under the fur in a soaped picture. Soap up, plop the dog on the table, and snap the picture. Very simple. A requirement for the HSD registry and still argued against by others.


All our dogs do have current CERFs, including the 10 year olds, and I'm not sure right now why they are not listed but will find out.

But if you want to call me a liar, go ahead. We aren't hiding anything.

edited to add: I think the reason that there are so few of our dogs listed is that we have sold so few as breeding dogs. Current CERFs are in their files. Still checking to see why they are not listed. Also, Twinkle is going on eleven and a lot of her puppies were born before breeders were BAER testing. All of our puppies have been BAER tested since anyone started and those are the ones you see listed. I'm not sure if they are all listed or not.


----------



## Thumper

"Ethical?"

Take the money and research and RUN..........How is that "ethical"?

I'm stunned on that one.


----------



## Julie

Tom,
I have a couple questions for you.I don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers or make you mad but I would like to know---and perhaps others would also.

If your wife Pam is on the board or whatever it is called for judges education with the HCA then isn't it a conflict of interest to now be involved in HSDAA(basically against the havanese breed as it is now)?I'm not saying YOU or Pam have "trashed" or said even one negative thing about the havanese....to my knowledge,you have been most respectable(thank you),but are you not a little worried by some of what that organization is saying?It has publicly barated some breeders that YOU KNOW have did health testing,and are very ethical.......I would be worried they are making claims that are outrageous,saying nasty things about people who have been in the hav breed for years,people who have helped to save the breed we all currently have.Now HEART,the HSDAA website etc.?


----------



## Tom King

Yes we did get some nasty, demanding emails but those don't concern us. Pam did resign from her committee positions before we joined the HSDAA, but did not just walk away. Feel free to ask about our references to anyone who knows us still on the board.

edited to add to answer the other question: I don't completely agree with everything from any organization. To us it's a fork in the road and we are going this way.

also edited to add: I looked at the Heart site and didn't find what people are complaining about. There is no money to take and run with. I'm not saying I can't be wrong on this but don't see it. 
copied and pasted from the Heart site: "Having fulfilled our financial obligation to TAMU, H.E.A.R.T. is not actively soliciting funds at this time. Funds currently in H.E.A.R.T.'s treasury above and beyond administrative expenses will be earmarked exclusively to support further DNA research by Dr. Murphy's lab."

edited again to add: I just read the whole Heart site and don't have a problem with it. Maybe something has been changed since Melissa saw it.


----------



## Julie

Thanks Tom.I appreciate you answering.I can not imagine how it must be to have to make this decision...

I know I would not hesitate to buy a pup from you,though we have never met.I respect what you say and think you and Pam have did alot for the havanese breed--I am just surprised you alligned yourself with people who may be good people,but who make others feel bad,so they can feel good.I think you know what I mean.......eace: 

Are you and Pam involved in the HCA now at all?


----------



## Tom King

We are still members and are available for our advice to anyone who asks for it.


----------



## dboudreau

dboudreau said:


> Where can I find the HSD standard? I have the FCI 1963 & Cuba Standard for 1990's I don't see proportions.


Can anyone tell me where I can find the HSD standard?


----------



## Tom King

quote: 
"I am just surprised you alligned yourself with people who may be good people,but who make others feel bad,so they can feel good."

Looks like there is no shortage of this to go around from either branch.


----------



## Tom King

The standard should be available shortly. It doesn't call for anything majorly different than you already see. Muzzle to backskull is 3 to 4 with an easy to use method to measure with your fingers. All proportions are relative to some other anatomical proportion and quick and easy to measure. I like it a lot.


----------



## Julie

Tom,
Maybe you and Pam will rub off on them and they will quit making derrogitory <sp remarks about the havanese,on the HS website.I would think more time could be spent promoting the hs,then making **** sure the havs and the hav breeders were hurt by their comments....ya know?Greg said they wanted to go in peace...but then they start war!

Hopefully,it will all die down soon--again...and people can concentrate on other more positive things.:biggrin1:

Oh I wasn't there myself....but a few posts back---it said what the HEART site stated.It was different then what you read.........


----------



## tejanoHavs

*click here*



Tom King said:


> also edited to add: I looked at the Heart site and didn't find what people are complaining about. There is no money to take and run with. I'm not saying I can't be wrong on this but don't see it.
> copied and pasted from the Heart site: "Having fulfilled our financial obligation to TAMU, H.E.A.R.T. is not actively soliciting funds at this time. Funds currently in H.E.A.R.T.'s treasury above and beyond administrative expenses will be earmarked exclusively to support further DNA research by Dr. Murphy's lab."
> 
> edited again to add: I just read the whole Heart site and don't have a problem with it. Maybe something has been changed since Melissa saw it.


Try looking on the front page...down towards the bottom. Here's the link http://www.havanese.net/heart/. I would anticipate that soon it will be toned down a bit, but for now it is still there. And I think statements like this which are a thinly veiled slur against the Havanese breed and its breeders are really what people object to. As soon as HSD learns the marketing on this one has backfired, I think we will see some of that disappear publicly. Of course, it will still be said verbally by many within HSD to those who call them looking for pups.


----------



## Doggie Nut

My mom always told me you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar!:biggrin1: eace: I know this doesn't fit with the discussion just thought I would add some comic relief!


----------



## Tom King

Cherie, I'm still missing something. This is what I see at the bottom of the page in your link:

We'd also like to thank all of those breeders and owners who have supported H.E.A.R.T. financially, contributed both DNA and especially tissue samples, and in general "went the extra mile" whenever asked to simply to help insure a healthy future for these great little dogs entrusted to our care. Thank you all from the bottom of our H.E.A.R.T.!!!


----------



## Suuske747

Tom King said:


> I'm still missing something.


*You're missing 3 paragraphs!?! 
Well....here are the ones you seem to be skipping.....*

_"Those Havanese breeders and H.E.A.R.T. stalwarts who have poured so much of their time, energy, and money into this effort to produce healthier dogs decided, given the results of this research, they had only one ethical choice available to them. Details can be found at www.havanasilkdog.org., the website of the Havana Silk Dog Association.

Having fulfilled our financial obligation to TAMU, H.E.A.R.T. is not actively soliciting funds at this time. Funds currently in H.E.A.R.T.'s treasury above and beyond administrative expenses will be earmarked exclusively to support further DNA research by Dr. Murphy's lab.

However, those who wish to make contributions to the fledgling Havana Silk Dog Association to ensure that there will be a gene pool of healthy dogs in the future are welcome to do so. Associate membership applications for anyone wishing to support this effort are available on the website (www.havanasilkdog.org) as a downloadable form."_


----------



## Tom King

My browser must have been opening a saved page. Thanks for calling that to my attention.


----------



## marjrc

tejanoHavs said:


> You could say that "someone" might have mentioned it....grin. Yes, what you say here is very important :ear: . The HCA website is dated in several sections and in the case of the health section the decision was made by the HCA health committee that a short period of time with no info available would be better than what was up there previously. I don't think it will take too long before some summary info reappears and then it will finally be fully developed sometime after that. Numbers and data provided will be factual and will point out that the Havanese breed, HCA and reputable breeders are all very proactive when it comes to health testing and working towards breeding healthy dogs.
> 
> My friends in other breeds think that Havanese folks are crazy :crazy:already for all the health testing we do <g>. That's OK...we like it that way!


This is comforting, Cheryl. Thank you for letting us know!! :biggrin1:


----------



## Suuske747

no problem.....

now how do you feel about this?

I think this is really insulting to all the good and sensible breeders.....they are presenting this all as if it is not possible to breed healthy hav's!!! As if HSD is the only option for a healthy Havanese.......








Want a different breed....it's a free world....but don't do it on the cost of all the hard working and sensible good breeders who do breed excellent, brilliant, happy, social, healthy and beautiful Hav's.....









Yes there are Hav's with heavy health issues, but the vast majority come from puppy mills and backyard breeders..







..that's what needs to be addressed instead of wanting to create a "new breed" using a name that's basicly the alter ego of the Hav.....

If Heart wants to go for HSD, then they should change name and change their aim....now....now they are sailing 2 ships.....









Luckily, we have FCI here....it doesn't involve us....I hope it stays that way.....


----------



## Thumper

My browser does that too sometimes, Tom...it happens! 

I think it just hurts to think that an organization that was originally created to help the Havanese, is abandoning them  I know you and Pam have done nothing but strive to breed beautiful, healthy dogs! And you are held in high regard here with many of us, no matter what type of dog you are breeding! I know you both will always put your heart into breeding the best!

Regards,
Kara


----------



## tejanoHavs

Tom King said:


> It was explained to me by the opthamologist who did the exams that a punctate was not always a cataract. Notice that it says "breeder option". If it had been a cataract it would not have said "breeder option" according to the tester. It was explained that it was just a little dot and it has not changed since the first exam and that they are like the things in our eyes when we look up at the sky and see "floaters". The same goes for the other pup mentioned. None of these have progressed into cataracts, so I stand by my claim that there are no congenital health problems.
> 
> Twinkle's soaps at 10 1/2 years old:
> All our dogs do have current CERFs, including the 10 year olds, and I'm not sure right now why they are not listed but will find out.
> 
> But if you want to call me a liar, go ahead. We aren't hiding anything.
> 
> edited to add: I think the reason that there are so few of our dogs listed is that we have sold so few as breeding dogs. Current CERFs are in their files. Still checking to see why they are not listed. Also, Twinkle is going on eleven and a lot of her puppies were born before breeders were BAER testing. All of our puppies have been BAER tested since anyone started and those are the ones you see listed. I'm not sure if they are all listed or not.


Tom, I would never call you a liar as I think you and Pam are both good people stuck in a bad situation with friends you have trusted for years. But in terms of words that are used, to say "I've never produced xyz" as opposed to "to my knowledge, none of the dogs we've produced who have been tested have xyz" makes a big difference to the reader. I'm sure you will find out why there are eye exams not showing up as CERFs on the website, and people do make mistakes I know.:frusty:

As far as punctates, since I had one dog with them too, I will agree that my vet optho said the same thing and even said he could be bred (I declined that advice...grin). But look what Joanne Baldwin preached for years out on the HEART website....the very message that had Havanese breeders neutering their breeding stock as soon as a punctate might appear:

*My dog was diagnosed with a punctate. What is that? *​
*Punctate is an adjective, not a noun. Cataracts are categorized by size. The smallest are called punctate cataracts. These can progress to intermediate cataracts and finally to generalized or hypermature cataracts, which are the "white marbles" that can be easily seen. The progression of cataracts in Havanese can be very slow, taking a number of years, or very swift, becoming generalized in less than a year. Some punctate cataracts do not progress at all, and the dog's vision is never impaired. These are usually capsular cataracts, and appear fairly rarely in this breed. MOST punctate cataracts will progress.*​
For anyone looking for the original HEART website, it is available (for now) as an archive at http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.havaneseheart.org 

I'm sure that will disappear as the current leaders of HSDAA own the domain name for what was previously known as HEART and by inserting a piece of code in the current pages they can cause all previously archived versions to disappear. That is the same thing that happened to previous versions of the HCA website. Never fear though...I donated the website design for HEART and we do have those original files backed up here on our local PC. Oooops....as a matter of fact, I just checked for some of the later years and it appears access has been blocked already to all years except 2001 :suspicious: 

I'll post a separate entry in a minute to this thread which will feature the entire text of a letter from Dr. Kirk Gelatt, who is one of the foremost researchers in the field of canine cataracts and who allowed the Havanese breed to piggyback onto the ongoing study he had begin regarding cataracts in the Bichon breed. In it, he does say that punctates often progress to larger, more damaging cataracts. 

If I have to err, I'll err on the side of being conservative.


----------



## tejanoHavs

Tom King said:


> My browser must have been opening a saved page. Thanks for calling that to my attention.


No problem, Tom  Lots of websites having to do with Havanese and HSD and HEART are changing daily lately....sometimes more than once a day :biggrin1:


----------



## Tom King

Belle was not bred after getting the "punctate" analysis. It had not changed from one CERF to the other. It was explained to me that there is a difference between a "punctate cataract" and a "punctate". The opthamologist even said that others probably wouldn't even list it. It is still just a dark dot. Hardly a health problem.

Edited to add. Belle's current CERF is Normal with no other comments. We made the mistake of going to a vet with either not much experience or an agenda. I tried to post a pic of her CERF certificate here but somehow was not able to. It is in the Gallery under my user name although it is hard to read.

Here is a link to the Texas A&M (TAMU) study:http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/esm049v1

When I met Pam in the mid '70s she was breeding Malamutes. The Malamute folks are the ones who named "Chondrodysplasia" and we have been trying to stay away from it ever since.

Like I said, Twinkle, who is on the bottom line of all Starborn pedigrees has produced Zero congenital health problems. Our guarantee covers congenital health problems and if you buy a puppy from us who develops CD we will give you your money back. There's always the standard buy back clause forever too.

Just because something is listed on the OFA database does not mean that is the endall answer.


----------



## tejanoHavs

*research update on cataract project from Dr. Gelatt as of 4/23/2001*

*Research Update*​
*S**ummary of the 'State' of Punctate Lens Opacities in the Havanese Breed *
*as of 23 April 2001*​
The canine lens is not always perfectly clear, and these changes may be grouped into lens imperfections and real cataract formation. The imperfections occur more often in young dogs and may disappear with aging. We had a poster at the St Louis canine health foundation convention a few years ago in which we demonstrated these changes. Cataracts are defined in the literature (and dictionary) as 'any opacity of the lens or its capsule.'​
*Then comes along the punctate* or discrete, often round, lens opacities within the anterior and/or posterior cortex. They may also be near the posterior (rather than anterior) lens sutures. These changes often signal cataract formation and their importance seems to vary by breed and which area(s) of the lens is involved. In the Bichon Frise and Havanese breeds punctate opacities seem very important and usually signal very early cataract formation. The position of these opacities within the lens may influence their significance. Punctate opacities within the anterior or posterior cortex that progress or change over time are obviously important and signal an eventual 'white marble' for the lens.​
Sometimes the importance or significance of the diagnosis of punctate opacities requires multiple lens exams over several months or even a year to observe these opacities and observe if they become larger or more numerous. If progression occurs, obviously these changes present real cataract formation and are very significant.
As we study the possible inherited cataract in the Havanese breed (now completing 2 years), our initial observations suggest it is very similar to the Bichon Frise cataract (which we have investigated since 1990). We initially thought perhaps these punctate cataracts represented the 'carrier state' (assuming these cataracts are inherited as an autosomal recessive trait), but it appears with additional dogs, time and observations, this is not the case as these punctate cataracts often progress and represent real and progressive cataracts. These changes may be more rapid in younger dogs (dogs less than 3 or 4 years old).​
The CERF statement - 'significance of punctate cataracts is unknown' for the Havanese may be incorrect soon! Hence, 'what if I have a Havanese dog with punctate opacities?' is a frequent question. This is a difficult question; however if within two or more CERF exams, there is an increase in the number and/or size of the punctate opacities, the answer should be obvious and cataract formation has occurred!
So, if you have a Havanese with punctate lens opacities, this often indicates the lens has a high probability of becoming cataractous. Two eye exams over 6 to 12 months often show progression (size and/or number) of punctates). This, we think, is part of the clinical course of inherited cataracts in the Havanese breed. Serial observations of 'punctate opacity' dogs in our study are occurring at this time.​
We hope within the next 12 to 18 months to have convincing data for HEART that : 1) that shows these cataracts are inherited as an autosomal recessive trait; and 2) documents age of onset and progression of the cataracts (punctate to generalized cataracts) and possible blindness over 2 to 4 years. Some of the dogs we are investigating are still young, and require more time for multiple observations.​
Hence, my summary of the 'state' of punctate lens opacities in the Havanese breed as of 23 April 2001.​
Kirk N Gelatt, VMD
Distinguished Professor of Comparative Ophthalmology
Department of Small Animal Clinical Sciences
College of Veterinary Medicine
University of Florida​====================================
Just fyi, this comes from the original HEART website as found online at the www.archive.org website.


----------



## Tom King

Belle's is not an opacity. It's a dot.

Twinkle's soaps are up on post 1232 now.


----------



## tejanoHavs

Tom King said:


> Belle was not bred after getting the "punctate" analysis. It had not changed from one CERF to the other. It was explained to me that there is a difference between a "punctate cataract" and a "punctate". The opthamologist even said that others probably wouldn't even list it. It is still just a dark dot. Hardly a health problem.


That's interesting as Joanne Baldwin and the CERF organization are saying something a little different. Here's a link to the CERF info about cataracts http://www.vmdb.org/feb01.html#dxspot.

Obviously a lot of differences in words used and in the approach at different points in time. Like you said, we each just choose our own road to follow. I would never be so bold as to suggest that someone who didn't follow my particular path was less honorable in their approach to trying to breed for healthy dogs. If only HSD would stop doing this, I think a lot of the noise would die down


----------



## tejanoHavs

Tom King said:


> Belle's is not an opacity. It's a dot.
> 
> Twinkle's soaps are up on post 1232 now.


So how would we even see the dot if it's opacity was not different from the background field? Put a white dot on a red graphic background and adjust it's opacity to watch it go from white to pink to a red which matches the background of the graphic. I don't think a dot could be seen if it didn't have some degree of opacity. 
Sorry....I'm a graphics oriented person eace:

Doesn't really matter as some punctate opacities or dots or punctates or whatever we call them will indeed progress into larger cataracts which can affect vision. Some won't. The only way to know which you have is to continue those CERF exams :biggrin1: (yes, a blatant plug for all of us to CERF our Havs!).


----------



## Tom King

I was talking to the opthamologist about the instrument he was using. Specifically, I asked if it has a depth of field so that he could see the whole interior of the eye at one time or if it had a specifically shallow depth of field so that it only showed one plane. He looked at me very curiously as he had never had anyone ask this question or who knew anything about optics. I explained that my best friend and I used to build telescopes when we were teenagers and that now my friend is a top scientist for NASA, was on the team that won the Nobel Prize recently, and had been on the team that fixed the Hubble, yada, yada....

He explained that the instrument only selected one plane and that you had to move your head in and out to look through the eye. He asked if I'd like to take a look and I said of course.

The instrument has a light, the eye is dialated, and you can indeed see every little thing in there, including dark things.

edited to add: See my previous post. Belle's current CERF done at NCSU is Normal. We have never produced a dog with any type of cataract. (period)


----------



## irnfit

If the HSD people are so sure odf their dogs, then why didn't they just go away, form their own club, and leave the Havanese alone? At every turn, they have done everything they can to undermine Havanese dogs and breeders. It's in print and in their words, so they can't blame the Hav people for being angry.


----------



## good buddy

I'm still working my way through this thread but if it hasn't been mentioned thus far I will post the URL to CHIC which stands for Canine Health Information Center http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/faqs.html

The say quite clearly on their site...

"Do test results have to be normal?
No, CHIC is not about normalcy. CHIC is meant to encourage health testing and sharing of all results, normal and abnormal, so that more informed breeding decisions can be made in an overall effort to reduce the incidence of genetic disease and improve canine health."


----------



## Honey Poney's

Hello

Been very busy reading everything and trying to understand everything.
Translating from English to Dutch.

I have got one big question.

As I understand Salemi Charly is a very important dog for the HSD and very much used as stud, and he even is many times double in pedigrees.

in Salemi Charly's line you have Macho's Toddy's Son.
a very dangerous cataract dog, we in Europe are all trying to get him out of our pedigrees, in some countries you even can't breed when he is in your pedigree.

in his pedigree also AME Amoroso, litter sister from AME Angelito, also cataract.

We call this dangerous lines,
so, why is this the foundation of the HSD ?


----------



## Melissa Miller

irnfit said:


> If the HSD people are so sure of their dogs, then why didn't they just go away, form their own club, and leave the Havanese alone? At every turn, they have done everything they can to undermine Havanese dogs and breeders. It's in print and in their words, so they can't blame the Hav people for being angry.


This may be the quote of this thread. In three sentences you summed it up! Well done!


----------



## irnfit

Thanks, Melissa. I kinda snapped when I read the stuff on the H.E.A.R.T. website. What was stated was very meanspirited and I take it personally (and I am not even a breeder).


----------



## chrismom

You know- reading this stuff on the HEART website, about donations etc. to the Havana silk dogs, and looking at their logo- looks like their havana silk dog logo- seems like this has been a plan for a while and they used concerned Havanese people to get money and attention that can later be directed toward their own intentions, and now it is any way they can bad mouth the Havanese- and promote their own.

Like I said- if they want a new breed, and are health testing, etc. so be it, but why like this?


----------



## chrismom

Soaping dogs- first what I want to say is that it is strange how everything they say is so focused on this. SOmeone talks about punctates, and it goes right back to soaping- weird- not related at all. .

Also, I said this the other day, and I will say it again. I think that is a cool way to look at your own dogs and put the hair out of the picture, but i tried this with mine- and it is actually quite easy to make the pictures look how you want them to. I tried making them look as bad as possible, and i was amazed, and I could immediately make them look perfect. So- if a person that knew what they were doing was evaluating a novices dog, they could make it appear however they wanted it to, photograph it, and go with that- not cool! But I really did do this- it is amazing how bad you can make a good dog look- put their legs where you want and say "stay". Makes a huge difference.


----------



## chrismom

Anyway- same issue. WHo is deliberately breeding dogs with bowed legs??? Never heard of any- could be wrong! Also, personally I have not seen hardly any- period.

Another thing- punctates- if they are not progressing- it should be on CERF-period.


----------



## Dawna

Yes, Chris, exactly. There are pictures on the web, on well known breeders' websites, with soaped pictures that are laughable. Soapy hair smoothed and held up against the tail to 'create' a rising topline. I could go on and on about this one. Don't get me started. I would think X-rays have to be so much more accurate (from a buyers' perspective, anyway). A breeder would have to be pretty tricky to manipulate x-rays.  Not real hard to manipulate soapy hair.....or a well trained dog. Don't get me wrong, I think soaps are still a valid way for a breeder to evaluate their own dogs, and to show puppy buyers what's underneath all the cute fluff. I'm just sayin'.....in the wrong hands they don't mean squat.


----------



## Dawna

HoneyPoney,
That is a big question. And a very good one.

Any insight here Tom?
Dawna


----------



## tehashavanese

Melissa Miller said:


> My biggest issues are with
> A) How the situation was handled...
> B) Some of the crazy lies I have heard come right out of some of the HSDA peoples mouth.
> C) The people not admitting they are with the HSDA. Afraid of backlash? From who???? From those active in a breed they no longer want to be involved in? I say if you feel so strongly in what you are doing, then there should be no problems.


Maybe it could have been handled differently; We tried to make it a simple announcement. The result was that some Officers and volunteers of the HCA were attacked, forced to leave offices and positions they had worked hard at, because it was said they could not be part of both HCA and HSDAA. (Yet some HCA members are also members of the IHC or OHC, and have other breeds.)

So, I do understand why some want to be quiet. Not everyone is willing to make themselves a target of the kind of abuse and hate that has been seen, not on this list, but on some.

Steve Harris


----------



## chrismom

The other clubs are not degrading Havanese, and Havanese breeders. AND they are all working on the HAVANESE breed- this is supposedly a different breed! I can't see how you can make that comparison.

Parent clubs are supposed to be promoting the breed standard, etc. they have on their websites things contrary to the Havanese breed, and are trying to take the heritage away from the Havanese and give it to their breed, and eventually they plan to leave the club and go with their own club- right? Then this is not in the best interests of the HCA, so it is better to leave now, if this is not the breed they want, then what is the problem?


----------



## Honey Poney's

Honey Poney's said:


> Hello
> 
> Been very busy reading everything and trying to understand everything.
> Translating from English to Dutch.
> 
> I have got one big question.
> 
> As I understand Salemi Charly is a very important dog for the HSD and very much used as stud, and he even is many times double in pedigrees.
> 
> in Salemi Charly's line you have Macho's Toddy's Son.
> a very dangerous cataract dog, we in Europe are all trying to get him out of our pedigrees, in some countries you even can't breed when he is in your pedigree.
> 
> in his pedigree also AME Amoroso, litter sister from AME Angelito, also cataract.
> 
> We call this dangerous lines,
> so, why is this the foundation of the HSD ?


Sorry, I even forgot one:
Pillowtalks Perla Puro has cataract too.

.


----------



## chrismom

Honey Poney, It is cool that you have info on the foreign dogs, and I am on the same side as you, but i have to say that according to what I read if Pillowtalks Perla Puro has cataracts, it would have had to have developed after 9 years old, and according to what I was reading- he wasn't listed as HC even at 11 years old. Can't read the diagnosis though, but it doesn't say HC, maybe you would know what it does say about the last eye exam. I know some of the foreign diagnosis, but not that one.

Personally, I would be more concerned with a young dog with punctates that did not have a history of re- testing, than an older dog that develops something. Age of onset of eye problems is also hereditary, if a dog at say 9 get cataracts, etc, then it will probably not even be something the owner would have noticed really. Sure we should eliminate all we can, but by then it has already been bred or not, and at that age, I, personally wouldn't worry too much. I like to see annual results though on as many relatives as possible.

Even if this one dog proves not to be that big of a deal, it is still important to realize that this line, like any other line is not perfect. Trying to claim that it is only makes people dig more, and they will always find something.


----------



## Honey Poney's

That's tho only thing I wanted to say.
There is no perfect dog, no perfect line.
When you start digging you find something in every line,
and this means EVERY line.

It doesn"t mean that this is bad, just important to now, and important to now which combinations to make.

I also have some of these dogs in my lines,
but will try never to double them in my lines.

It just isn't honnest to say that our dogs, or our lines, or our HSD, or our Havanese is perfect.

Havanezer,
Havaneser,
Havanese,
Bichon Havanais,
Bichon Habanero,
Havana Silk Dog,

what's in a name
we're all the same !!!!!!!!!!!

P.S. Here is the lis of dogs to be careful with.
http://www.kleinhunde.de/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=1654&sid=dbe16a0249519f7e221df04fba1ef1af

..


----------



## tejanoHavs

chrismom said:


> Honey Poney, It is cool that you have info on the foreign dogs, and I am on the same side as you, but i have to say that according to what I read if Pillowtalks Perla Puro has cataracts, it would have had to have developed after 9 years old, and according to what I was reading- he wasn't listed as HC even at 11 years old. Can't read the diagnosis though, but it doesn't say HC, maybe you would know what it does say about the last eye exam. I know some of the foreign diagnosis, but not that one.
> 
> Personally, I would be more concerned with a young dog with punctates that did not have a history of re- testing, than an older dog that develops something. Age of onset of eye problems is also hereditary, if a dog at say 9 get cataracts, etc, then it will probably not even be something the owner would have noticed really. Sure we should eliminate all we can, but by then it has already been bred or not, and at that age, I, personally wouldn't worry too much. I like to see annual results though on as many relatives as possible.
> 
> Even if this one dog proves not to be that big of a deal, it is still important to realize that this line, like any other line is not perfect. Trying to claim that it is only makes people dig more, and they will always find something.


Those are good points. Back when we first began all of the health research, it was focused on heritable cataracts. We had to decide at what age we would stop calling them heritable juvenile cataracts and when we would consider them as part of the aging process (and therefore not heritable). Since Dr. Kirk Gelatt was doing our research, he was asked for his guidelines there and he said that any dog who had clear CERFs through the age of 7 could really be considered as "clear" or "unaffected" from a genetics standpoint. Those that developed after 7 years were due to aging instead of genetics.

Although he is now retired from the University, Dr. Gelatt is still one of the most widely respected authorities here in the US on veterinary opthalmology. If you ever take your dog in for a CERF exam and mention Dr. Gelatt's name, you're likely to have your optho know Dr. Gelatt personally since many of them studied under him in school.

I didn't get to interface with him as much as the folks down in FL who were fortunate enough to be able to go to him to have their own dogs CERFed, but the times I did speak with him I always learned something. Great guy!


----------



## Tom King

I'm sticking to 0.00% congenital health problems. A passing CERF is NOT a health problem. After going back to North Carolina State University, Belle now CERFs clear anyway. I have more work to do obviously, but we have produced no congenital problems that degraded the quality of a dogs life, shortened life, or required any treatment for such. The opthmologist who said that Belle's punctate was "just a dot" and "not the kind that turns into a cataract" was taken by me to be good enough. She does have a current CERF here in her file from Feb. of this year. How "not the kind that turns into a cataract" got placed on the site as a "punctate cataract significance unknown" in one spot and "breeder option" in another spot will have to be something taken care of next week. We just have too much other stuff this week. So for now I'll withold a retraction or apology.

To answer Reece's question: As far as I know right now there is no gene identified YET that will predict CD. They are still working on it. I don't think I need to repeat what the study says again. The best we can do now is not to breed dogs with CD. I'm willing to show anyone what is under our dogs fur. As far as I know, we have never produced a pup with even a bowed leg and certainly not CD. Just as I stated that we have not produced a health problem, I'm basing that on the fact that we still know where all our pups are but one, our guarantee says if there is a congenital problem that we will pay for it, and no one has come up with even a question about such a problem and certainly no bills in the mail. We do hear daily when one throws up, or has diarrhea, or any other such day to day problem.

I put Twinkles soaps up to discuss Cherie's (nice to know who people are who sign or post by their real name) opinion that Twinkle didn't fit what she thinks a HSD is. Cherie made the comment that Twinkles head didn't look like a HSD. In fact Twinkles head, including her face, will get the highest score possible at her hands on evaluation. Her muzzle length is equal to the width of her backskull, also the muzzle length is about a 3:4 ratio to the length from stop to occipet; she has black pigment; large, dark almond eyes, etc. Even though Pam and I are evaluators, we won't do the evaluation on our own dogs but there is nothing that will get marked off from the highest score on Twinkle's head. She will get marked down for shoulder layback. She has a great rearend. There is much to be learned from soaped pictures.

They were not put up as has been implied as a diversion by me from the discussion on the punctate issue. Those of us willing to show what's under our dogs fur to the public are not the ones doing the diverting.

We all have junk in our dogs pedigrees. Each of us has to decide which is the proper manner to breed away from them.

I'll be back to answer any other questions already asked of me and any other some other time but have to go do other stuff now.

In the mean time heres a question from me. If no one is breeding dogs with bowed legs how come there are so many in the ring. Some one in touch with the Board now might ask to make public the letter written by a judge on this very issue which was read at a board meeting and ask what were the reasons stated that it was not made public. I don't think it's my place to make this letter public but do believe it has some effect on the mass exodus.

It might be a few days before I get back.


----------



## tejanoHavs

Tom King said:


> I guess I overstepped my bounds by stating that we have produced 0.00% congenital health problems. I have more work to do obviously, but we have produced no congenital problems that degraded the quality of a dogs life, shortened life, or required any treatment for such. The opthmologist who said that Belle's punctate was "just a dot" and "not the kind that turns into a cataract" was taken by me to be good enough. She does have a current CERF here in her file from Feb. of this year. How "not the kind that turns into a cataract" got placed on the site as a "punctate cataract significance unknown" in one spot and "breeder option" in another spot will have to be something taken care of next week. We just have too much other stuff this week. So for now I'll withold a retraction or apology..


CERF protocol says that for our breed punctate cataracts always go in as a breeder option. http://www.vmdb.org/categories.html Like I said earlier, on my boy who had a punctate, the optho said the exact same thing...no big deal, most likely will not cause a problem but let's track it. I don't think anyone wants an apology  but I do think it is helpful for all of us to be talking apples to apples. And I think that you're not the exception, but rather the rule in terms of breeder's who care and who have produced few if any health issues of any magnitude. For me, as I've said publicly, the worst issue I've ever created was a puppy who choked occasionally when drinking water. All of the normal genetic reasons for that happening were ruled out with specialists it was finally just diagnosed as pharangeal dysphasia (a problem in swallowing literally). And it could have been due to the fact that this pup was a little underdeveloped when newborn and he had to be tube fed for his first week or two. I could have actually caused the damage when tube feeding. But, I'd make that decision again as I'm not one of the breeders who says that the pups you have to work for just shouldn't be saved. Other than that one pup though, my record is the same as yours. And again, I don't think we're the exception amongst breeders who care. I also know that someday, I will create a health issue that is more severe...it is just a matter of time if you breed enough. Just like in real life, things happen that we don't expect.



Tom King said:


> I put Twinkles soaps up to discuss Cherie's (nice to know who people are who sign or post by their real name) opinion that Twinkle didn't fit what she thinks a HSD is. Cherie made the comment that Twinkles head didn't look like a HSD.


I was trying to say how lovely I thought Twinkle was...hope that didn't get misinterpreted :biggrin1: I will be looking forward to seeing the HSD standard myself, but if that muzzle length is ideal I'll have to say that rarely do I see many that are shorter in the ring in our area. Will be focusing on muzzles at the upcoming nationals 



Tom King said:


> If no one is breeding dogs with bowed legs how come there are so many in the ring. Some one in touch with the Board now might ask to make public the letter written by a judge on this very issue which was read at a board meeting and ask what were the reasons stated that it was not made public. I don't think it's my place to make this letter public but do believe it has some effect on the mass exodus.
> 
> It might be a few days before I get back.


I learned long ago I can only speak for myself as far as breeding practices because it is far to easy for breeders to say one thing publicly and then do another. I've been shown a copy of the letter you mention (not through any official channels). Like you, I was alarmed when I read it and she spoke of seeing so many bowed legs, so I went into research mode :biggrin1: The judge who wrote it has been judging for years, but I had never heard of her personally. Closest personal experience was when she put up a class dog out of our stud for BOB in the NE. I don't know her though... probably because she judges quite a bit in the northeast US, with a couple of assignments on the West coast. In 2007, she has seen 16 Havs in her ring so far, in 2006 it was a total of 31 Havs and in 2005 it was 58 Havs. I didn't see any event when she actually withheld ribbons, and the only kennel I remember seeing receive a BOB more than once from her was FuzzyFarm. She does like our breed it seems as she occasionally uses them for placements in her toy group. Since 2004, I found 4 group placements, FuzzyFarm, Gingerbred, Ahavapicaro and Tapscott. I'm going to have to assume that means that she thinks those dogs had straight forelegs (and more...grin). Now that HSD has a few breeders listed on their website, I found it interesting that rarely were any dogs from those kennels represented in those she awarded points. And none of the group placements came from kennels listed on HSD's breeder list. The closest I saw was when a dog bred by Greg Steinig went best of opposite to a Fuzzy Farm dog who took BOB. Other than that, I don't see many other points awarded to those who are currently listed with HSD as breeding straight legged dogs. Maybe that is just because those dogs have not been shown to her in the past . Or maybe what it verifies is that indeed a broad cross section of Havanese breeders are breeding for straight legs and this particular judge is rewarding that fact in her ring.

I honestly can't say, but appreciate any judge who goes beyond the coat to examine the structure underneath


----------



## juniormint

I'm confused  

Does this mean we should be alarmed that a judge took the time to write to the Board of Directors about her concerns with the numbers of bowed legs? Or should we be alarmed by the knowledge that the Board got that info and didn't tell anyone? Or should we not be alarmed because she apparently doesn't see enough different Havanese to know if we have a problem with bowed legs?


----------



## juniormint

a woman posted this on the yahoo list:

I have a email friend in cuba that I thought I would write to get his opinion of this whole discussion of the HCAvs HSDAA discussion since it does in apart have to do with the ancestry and health of our hav's. Anyway I just wanted to see what a Cuban who has his hands on cuban champion dogs as a groomer and handler and who works closely with the breeders has to say.

One of the Moderators translated this.

My friend Melinda,
Thank you for requesting our opinion regarding the topic, I will
write to you in Spanish, because it will be better for expressing
our ideas. It is wonderful that there are discussions regarding our
breed, I have always hoped that this will generate growth and
development. For us it is clear and obvious that the original
Bichon Habanero of the island of Cuba still exists in the homes in
our towns and this is a visible and palpable fact. There also
exists in our Cuban Book of Origins of the Federacion Cinologica de
Cuba a registry of Bichon Habaneros with generations of examples
that are purely Cuban. In our Cuban Book of Origins, there are no
registrations for Maltese, Lowchen, Frises, Llasas, Coton, etc.; in
other words, it cannot be said that our Habanero was rescued with
the help of any of these breeds or crossings that have been used in
other countries and have seriously affected the original type. In
Cuba there is a Bichon Habanero Club that began the work of breed
selection using dogs that were absolutely Cuban, the results of
which can be seen today in the excellent examples that are in the
hands of the breeders and the blood lines that are in the pedigrees
of many important breeders in Europe, Canada, United States, Latin
America, etc.
The short-haired Bichon Habanero does not exist; that is a genetic
regression that is produced in bloodlines of few generations.
Evidently there is an ancestor that is not Bichon; what is
interesting is that they are not alarmed when genetic regressions of
crosses with Llasas show up in their puppies, this is very visible
today in many dogs presented in shows and that is also valid for
many other breeds.
Also very true and easily proven is that our bloodlines in the
island of Cuba have very few hereditary diseases, as our dogs are
very healthy and this is something that should be taken advantage
of by the breeders of the world since the health of a breed depends
on the seriousness of its breeders and this is vital for the future
of a canine breed.
Dog breeding must go slowly, it is not a horse race, and the rush to
obtain results has brought about innumerable deviations; we should
take pleasure in doing something for the good of the breed that has
chosen us and not turn into ferocious competitors that end up making
our dogs pay the highest price. Justifying our breeding errors is
not how we are going to succeed in the development of the breed that
we love. It is very important to defend our original type and
identity, and the Cuban identity of the Bichon Habanero is essential
and can be seen in their likeable and gallant character, in the joy
in their movement, in the freedom their tail expresses like a plume
in the wind. We would like the rest of our friends to get to know
our thoughts about this subject.
Many Hellos,
Miguel Abreu/Pavel Marrero
Echale Salsita Bichon Habanero


----------



## aradelat

Yes. He says the original Bichon Habanero (known in the United States as Havanese) still exists in Cuba. We know that.


----------



## marjrc

I saw the letter too and decided to check out the website. You will find their standard here: http://www.bichonesdecuba.com/estandar.php?lan=en

An even better description is here: http://www.bichonesdecuba.com/la-raza.php?lan=en

I still can't tell the difference!! lol


----------



## Thumper

It is interesting that they recognize a Brown colored coat as a standard.

Kara


----------



## dboudreau

Marj, that standard is almost word for word the same as the Current Canadian Standard. I am interested to see how the HSD standard will compare.


----------



## Havtahava

Thumperlove said:


> It is interesting that they recognize a Brown colored coat as a standard.


OK, I'll bite. What makes that interesting, Kara? Brown can be very lovely (or very unattractive once in a while), but what caught your eye about that particular point in the standard?


----------



## Dawna

I know that at least some HSD folks consider brown to be not good at all.
Almost more of a pigmentation defect than a color in and of itself.
(I'm not Kara, I'm jus' sayin') :biggrin1:


----------



## chrismom

Sounds like what they have been saying. But as far as pigment goes- if the "brown" color is chocolate, then the pigment will have to be chocolate too.


----------



## Dawna

Yes, chocolate with chocolate pigment was the 'not good' brown I was referring to. 
Havana brown is supposed to be like sort of a black/brown with black pigment if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## Havtahava

I thought those links were to the current Cuban Havanese standard - - ??? 
I don't know what that would have to do with the HSD group that is currently in formation. They may be working with a particular Cuban phenotype from past days, but they can still have their own twists, leadership & standard, can't they? They don't have to follow the standard of another country, whether it is current or old.

By the way, I found a few notes of pigmentation on the Cuban standard, but it only talked about lack of, not a particular color (that I found).


----------



## Dawna

Oh, I just thought if they were working back toward the 'orginial' Cuban dog, surely the Cubans' standard would reflect that dog??


----------



## Havtahava

Does anything say they are working back to the "original" Cuban dog? Because the pictures (paintings) that I've seen of old-time Havs are of pretty ugly dogs. Maybe I misunderstood, but those dogs are kinda Maltese-looking in a bad way. (And I like the look of Maltese.)


----------



## Havtahava

Dawna said:


> Havana brown is supposed to be like sort of a black/brown with black pigment if I'm not mistaken.


 That's my understanding too.


----------



## Dawna

we are totally committed to helping to protect and preserve it in its *original Cuban form* wherever the winds of fate may have caused it to land over the years

That quote is taken from the home page of their website.


----------



## Havtahava

OK, so now the comparison goes back to the Original Cuban form, and I have no idea what that would be. I see now why someone linked to the current Cuban standard though, even though it has probably evolved with time also.


----------



## Dawna

Me either, cause like you said, the drawing of that supposedly original breed is none too cute. hehe:biggrin1:


----------



## tejanoHavs

Havtahava said:


> OK, so now the comparison goes back to the Original Cuban form, and I have no idea what that would be. I see now why someone linked to the current Cuban standard though, even though it has probably evolved with time also.


Hi Kimberly,

Maybe that's why someone also posted the message from a Cuban breeder who said in part,

"For us it is clear and obvious that the original
Bichon Habanero of the island of Cuba still exists in the homes in
our towns and this is a visible and palpable fact. There also
exists in our Cuban Book of Origins of the Federacion Cinologica de
Cuba a registry of Bichon Habaneros with generations of examples
that are purely Cuban. "
​


----------



## Thumper

Havtahava said:


> OK, I'll bite. What makes that interesting, Kara? Brown can be very lovely (or very unattractive once in a while), but what caught your eye about that particular point in the standard?


Because the way I understand it, or someone correct me if I'm wrong, wasnt' it stated that "brown or chocolate" havs were a result of the AZ breeding problems? I'll do a search on it later....let me get some coffee in me 

I've heard it a few times...even in Real life from a breeder, that brown isn't a true Cuban color.

I don't know the difference between Cuban Brown or American Chocolate, so I don't know,

I do think Chocolates/brown havs are gorgeous, btw. Especially the ones w/ green eyes. *drool* 

Kara


----------



## Suuske747

green eyes?! 
You're joking, right?


----------



## Thumper

Suuske747 said:


> green eyes?!
> You're joking, right?


I've only seen one. I'll see if I can find a picture. Isn't there a Hav with green eyes on the forum too? "Dusty", maybe?

Or..I'm totally wrong on that and have been duped by Photoshop. lol...don't know for sure?

Kara


----------



## juniormint

Am I the only one who picked up on this line? It seems to me to support one of the things the HSDAA is saying.

Evidently there is an ancestor that is not Bichon; what is interesting is that they are not alarmed when genetic regressions of crosses with Llasas show up in their puppies, this is very visible today in many dogs presented in shows and that is also valid for many other breeds. Also very true and easily proven is that our bloodlines in the island of Cuba have very few hereditary diseases, as our dogs are very healthy and this is something that should be taken advantage of by the breeders of the world since the health of a breed depends on the seriousness of its breeders and this is vital for the future
of a canine breed.


----------



## juniormint

I don't think the issue is with a brown coat color. I think the issue is with any pigment *other *than black.

I also think they aren't supposed to have green eyes. I think they are supposed to be dark. I was going to check the Standard but the Havanese website is gone. So if I'm wrong I'm sorry in advance.


----------



## ama0722

okay, I have to post on this thread again <BG> Cherie, that is an adorable puppy!!!

Amanda


----------



## juliav

Thumperlove said:


> I do think Chocolates/brown havs are gorgeous, btw. Especially the ones w/ green eyes. *drool*
> 
> Kara


Me too!!! I think if I found a chocolate with green eyes, I would seriously consider upsetting my hubby and brin home home a #4. :biggrin1:


----------



## Sunnygirl

I think there's a broad spectrum of brown. My little guy is registered as a black brindle. He has a lot of red in his coat. He looks black until you put him next to a true black dog, and then he doesn't look so black anymore. In the sun, he looks more mahogony than black. He has black pigment and dark brown eyes and is definitely not a chocolate, but sometimes when I look at him I'd say he's dark brown.


----------



## whitBmom

I am in the same boat too  Oreo looks black -sort of. But mostly he looks like his is a dark brown, and has some reddish tones on him. Lately I have been noticing that he is getting white hairs everywhere too - he has the silvering gene


----------



## Thumper

Havtahava said:


> OK, I'll bite. What makes that interesting, Kara? Brown can be very lovely (or very unattractive once in a while), but what caught your eye about that particular point in the standard?


Okay! I found it WAAYYYY back on the thread this was posted by Greg. Post #205, I think it is around page 20 or so, there is more to be read regarding Chocolate Havs and how they are, according to Greg, considered "poodles" in Cuba, here's the post:

_Posted by Greg/post #205


Julie said:



How do you really know Dorothy Goodale mixed another dog in there?She would be trying to save the breed....QUOTE]

Great question and I'm glad you asked. In her interview in Our Havanese she states that one group of dogs was small. One group had short front legs that tended to be a little round with wide fronts (sound familiar?). All had heads where the muzzle was equal in length to the head. Only the group of larger dogs had 6/6 bites. When I read this it fit with exactly what Diane was saying about the AZ Conundrum.

I've learned information that on its own doesn't merit much more than a sigh. But when taken together with everything else I've learned about the Havanese it became much more interesting. This is just more trivia but it makes you sit up and say huh??? Such as:

I learned that Dorothy only bred her AZ dogs to her CR dogs once. After that she sold all her AZ dogs. Now why would someone who was trying to "save the breed" get rid of breeding stock she'd had since they were puppies? And when she sold them she did so with a "puppy back" contract but when she got those puppies back, she didn't keep them. Why again?

I learned that Dorothy bred Soft Coated Wheaten Terriers until 1973 when they were admitted into the AKC. Sound familiar? In 1974 she started up with havanese and stayed until THEY were admitted to the AKC. I also learned that a group of SCWT breeders went to Ireland to bring new blood back into their lines but when they got there they found a different dog. Now the SCWTCA is on the verge of splitting because half of them think Dorothy interbred her SCWT with something else and that's why it isn't similar to the ones found in Ireland (country of origin), Sound familiar? In fact within the SCWTCA her name isn't highly regarded.

I learned that dogs with a higher percentage of Rags Girl are more likely to have problems. *I also learned there wasn't a chocolate Havanese recorded until her Dam. In Cuba they still don't register dogs with brown pigment as Chocolate. They call them poodles. *

I believe that things like these, when taken together give credibility to the notion that the HSD was only one of the types of dogs that make up the Havanese gene pool, and Dorothy thought so too!
__________________
www.sedosohavanese.com

Click to expand...

_


----------



## irnfit

I have come to my own conclusion that this whole issue is a crock. It has been said that no one is really 100% sure what the original Havanese looks like, and that they weren't Havanese until they came to the USA. I think it is just two groups of people with different thinking on how these dogs should look, and they are having a very big pissing contest, at the expense of the Havanese.


----------



## aradelat

*Amen*



irnfit said:


> I have come to my own conclusion that this whole issue is a crock. It has been said that no one is really 100% sure what the original Havanese looks like, and that they weren't Havanese until they came to the USA. I think it is just two groups of people with different thinking on how these dogs should look, and they are having a very big pissing contest, at the expense of the Havanese.


You are so right. In my opinion, the "original" Havanese is probably a lot like today's Havanese -- although it may have been a bit smaller. Today's Cuban Havanese, or Bichon Habanero, can be chocolate and other brown colors --that's the standard. And it has short legs -- that's the standard.


----------



## marjrc

irnfit said:


> I have come to my own conclusion that this whole issue is a crock. It has been said that no one is really 100% sure what the original Havanese looks like, and that they weren't Havanese until they came to the USA. I think it is just two groups of people with different thinking on how these dogs should look, and they are having a *very big pissing contest*, at the expense of the Havanese.


Michele, love this! ound:


----------



## whitBmom

A very BIG pissing contest indeed  ound:


----------



## Olliesmom

Too funny! eace: 

I do have to say tho, I get a kick out of people asking me what breed of dog I have....

My answer is always - Havanese.....

Then they look at me and say... "which one? And what is the other one?"

I do not dare open that can of worms to anyone who asks!!!! :frusty: :frusty: :frusty:


----------



## SMARTY

One question I just thought about that may have been answered, if so say already answered and I will wade back through:

Assuming the HSD is accepted into the AKC: If I am a breeder with the HCA and my line fits the HSD standard but I, for one reason or another, do not want to change my association with to the HSD, will future judges not accept my line a good Havanese.


----------



## cfabisch

I believe that unless your dog is registered as an HSD, it doesn't matter whether it fits the standard for HSD or not. The only thing you'd need to be concerned with if you show for conformation is how he/she meet the HCA standard. That's what he/she would be judged against.

Cathy


----------



## SMARTY

My point is; the breeders that I have heard of that are leaving to join the HSD have been very successful in the conformation ring. I'm sure others in the HCA have very similar dog type, but may want to remain a simple "Havanese".


----------



## cfabisch

The way I understand it is the the move doesn't prevent any dog currently registered as a Havanese to continue to be a Havanese, shown as a Havanese and judged agains the Havanese standard On the other hand, if you believe your dog to be more a HSD type and want him/her to be recognized as such, then you have work to do. 

I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I know I've been in the ring on weekends where the judge on one day interprets the standard one way and the next judge interprets the standard differently. I make a bit of a hobby out of looking at the winners around the country. It looks like a quite a mix. In any case, all of them (HSD and Havanese) are Havanese today and until the AKC recognizes the breed. So for a while (quite a while as I understand it), all will continue to be judged against the HCA standard.

Cathy


----------



## SMARTY

thanks Cathy, that is my understanding also. Just wondering for the future of those who do not go with the HSD with the same type of dogs.


----------



## cfabisch

I guess only time will tell. Dang, where did I put that crystal ball!


----------



## irnfit

And that's the problem, Kathy. The HSDAA dpogs can continue to be shown as Havs because they meet the standard. So how are they a different breed? You can't have it both ways.


----------



## cfabisch

I guess I see it as a natural transition step in a continuum toward another goal, but that JMHO.

Cathy


----------



## Julie

If you go this way sometimes and that way sometimes......that just makes you bi ------right?LOLound: eace:

Sorry----just being stupid!:sorry:


----------



## Thumper

Julie said:


> If you go this way sometimes and that way sometimes......that just makes you bi ------right?LOLound: eace:
> 
> :sorry:


ound: ound: ound: ound:

That's not stupid...that's darned funny! I'm still trying to find logic in all this...shew...I needed the laugh!


----------



## juliav

Julie said:


> If you go this way sometimes and that way sometimes......that just makes you bi ------right?LOLound: eace:
> 
> Sorry----just being stupid!:sorry:


Actually it just makes you swing both ways.


----------



## Kathy

juniormint said:


> Also very true and easily proven is that our bloodlines in the island of Cuba have very few hereditary diseases, as our dogs are very healthy


And we know this how????? They don't have the testing available in cuba as we do here. They don't have access to the meds we have here, that is why HCA has "cuban relief".


----------



## Dawna

Kathy,
I was just wondering exactly the same thing. I don't see the significance.
This is just to be accepted as fact because someone put that in print or what???
sheesh:frusty:


----------



## whitBmom

EXACTLY!! ( sorry, had to emphasize with yelling, as some people just don't get it). eace:


----------



## tejanoHavs

*measure of success?*



SMARTY said:


> My point is; the breeders that I have heard of that are leaving to join the HSD have been very successful in the conformation ring. I'm sure others in the HCA have very similar dog type, but may want to remain a simple "Havanese".


Maybe it depends on how success is measured? If I look at statistics in the Canine Chronicle http://www.caninechronicle.com/Statistics/Index.cfm , I don't see a single HSD kennel name listed in the year to date Top 20 All Breed for Havanese (those are the group placement points). If you look at the Top 20 for Breed (those are BOB points), only the #20 dog appears to be an HSD.

For 2006, the results are similar...no HSD dogs in the top 20 for either breed or all breed. In 2005, one HSD and another who shares those lines were in the top 20 for all breed, but only one of them made top 20 for breed. In 2004, 3 of the HSD dogs made it to top 20 in both breed and all breed, with one of them being the #1 dog in all breed for that year. In 2003 (as far back as the stats go online) 2 HSD dogs were in the top 20 for all breed (1 was #1) and only 1 was in the top 20 for breed.

Only Havanese to ever break into the top 20 for the entire Toy Group didn't belong to an HSD owner. No, that honor went to Connie Field last year with her Lotus (Harbor's It Had to be Me)...and that's a "big deal" in terms of conformation showing honors.

Only twice have HSD dogs won breed at Westminster. Havanese first competed at Westminster in 2000, so that means 5 other BOBs at Westminster have gone to other kennels rather than HSDers.

This isn't a recent phenomenon, as even back in 2003 only a very small percentage of the top 20 contained HSD dogs. The comment about some of the most successful breeders leaving to go to HSD just leaves me puzzled as I don't see that in the numbers and records over the past several years. I'm not sure they were ever a dominant force in the breed, but moreso a dominant force for a very close group of breeders and friends maybe.


----------



## chrismom

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by juniormint
> Also very true and easily proven is that our bloodlines in the island of Cuba have very few hereditary diseases, as our dogs are very healthy
> 
> And we know this how????? They don't have the testing available in cuba as we do here. They don't have access to the meds we have here, that is why HCA has "cuban relief".


I think this is a big part of what really drives me nuts about this whole thing. We all (with our AKC reg. Havanese) can PROVE health with testing, and as a breed we can prove that the health is improving. And as a breed we can prove that as a whole this is quite a healthy breed in general. But how can they just SAY that the Cuban dogs have good health without PROVING it, and yet some peoplt just take what they say as gospel. That just amazes me.

It seems that their marketing tactics have worked well. After the more I read, etc. especially the way the HEART thing was handled - it seems to me that this was all part of a big plan that seems to fit in nicely with the whole designer dog fad.

I think that some people also are going to follow them if they look at their own dogs and think they might look more like a HSD, just in case. OR- some will want to dual register them - just in case. Instead, I think that people need to take a stand- one way or the other and move forward with their breed. If you have a Havanese and for example you prefer a particular tail set- then if that is how you feel it should be- stick with it- and maybe lobby the people on the standard committee. People that want to breed- should have some image in mind and stick to that. No breed is going to get more uniform, or better in any way if breeders don't stand behind what they beleive, and are easily persuaded to go with a fad.


----------



## chrismom

Cherrie, you are so right- AGAIN!!!

Gee, looks like they are not doing as well in general each year, despite the fact that they have been pushing their agenda to the judges through judges Ed. and other things. So I guess, if everyone doesn't want to follow them, they are going to do their own thing- good!!!


----------



## tejanoHavs

chrismom said:


> It seems that their marketing tactics have worked well. After the more I read, etc. especially the way the HEART thing was handled - it seems to me that this was all part of a big plan that seems to fit in nicely with the whole designer dog fad.
> 
> I think that some people also are going to follow them if they look at their own dogs and think they might look more like a HSD, just in case. OR- some will want to dual register them - just in case. Instead, I think that people need to take a stand- one way or the other and move forward with their breed.


I have to agree with almost everything here, except the statement that people will dual register to sort of hedge their bets. My dogs have the same lines as many of the main HSD dogs, but dual registry would not appeal to me (or some of the other breeders who share those lines) simply because part of the HSD best practices for breeding requires you to only breed to other HSDs. So, that really limits your breeding selections in terms of health, pedigree, etc. I personally think that is such a damaging thing to do to the Havanese dogs as many of those listed as HSD breeders already have Havanese who are heavily line bred on some of those studs.

To me, as a breeder, that would be a huge reason why I would not seek dual registry as I don't want to be locked into only breeding within a small pool as the HSD evaluators see fit.


----------



## chrismom

You know though, everything they say is not wrong- but they do take it out of context and try to make a case with things that are not one.

Like muzzle length- they are making it seem that all Havanese breeeders are trying to make Shih Tzu muzzles- that is not a good thing. I bet there are breeders who are wanting a "cuter" look and that is not correct. But also, it is not what all Havanese people are striving for. In fact, I don't personally know anyone who would want that. Like the tightly curled tail, that is not correct either, but again, that is not what many would want I'd imagine. Like where it says on the front page I think of the HSD website- about round eyes. What good Havanese person is breeding for round eyes? 

Just seems that they are implying that Havanese people are doing this and that, and a lot of it certainly does not fit in what I have experienced.

Like the bowed leg thing. This is like the main seling point for them. Its like- if a dog has a slightly easty westy foot- then oh no- it will get all of these other conditions. That is just plain crazy- plenty of dogs in all breeds have imperfect legs, and that is all they have, including most havanese that are not perfect. Bowed legs- that are truly bowed-now that is a whole another issue. If a dog truly has bowed legs, it should not be in a breeding situation, and I can't imagine anyone doing so. But a slight turned out foot, or a little 'out at the elbows' - that is more than likely just a regular fault like anything else, but the HSD people are making it all out to be something more. I think this is an issue they can confuse the pet people with, and they are. I think they are really using the fact that Joanne Baldwin is a vet to their full advantage- thats crazy. I wonder if the pet people have lookd at her own dogs pedigrees? Not any thing different from every havanese out there. Her foundation bitch- I had to laugh when I saw- how regular her pedigree was! Not all cuban imports or something unusual like she makes it sound. SO if the dogs in that pedigree are acceptable to her as a foundation, then why criticize everyone else?-lol


----------



## chrismom

Oh yeah- I forgot that they would want them to only breed with other HSD dogs, so I guess that does in effect eliminate the possibility of dual registration- good!!! So people will really have to make a choice!!!


----------



## tejanoHavs

chrismom said:


> Cherrie, you are so right- AGAIN!!!
> 
> Gee, looks like they are not doing as well in general each year, despite the fact that they have been pushing their agenda to the judges through judges Ed. and other things. So I guess, if everyone doesn't want to follow them, they are going to do their own thing- good!!!


Well, I wasn't going to mention that but you are right that control of the HCA and the Havanese breed was vested in the leaders of the HSD for most of that time. They served as Presidents, Rec. Sec'ys, Judges Ed Chair (and I believe the vast majority of the judges ed committee members who presented judges ed are now alson in HSD), Show Events chair (this small 3-5 person committee comes up with the short list of about 5 judges for the HCA members to vote on annually to judge our national specialty...it is a powerful position within our breed), Health committee chair, and on and on. That's just a really weird situation when you think about all the power and control that was vested in the hands of a few.


----------



## tejanoHavs

chrismom said:


> You know though, everything they say is not wrong- but they do take it out of context and try to make a case with things that are not one.
> 
> Like muzzle length- they are making it seem that all Havanese breeeders are trying to make Shih Tzu muzzles- that is not a good thing. I bet there are breeders who are wanting a "cuter" look and that is not correct. But also, it is not what all Havanese people are striving for. In fact, I don't personally know anyone who would want that. Like the tightly curled tail, that is not correct either, but again, that is not what many would want I'd imagine. Like where it says on the front page I think of the HSD website- about round eyes. What good Havanese person is breeding for round eyes?
> 
> Just seems that they are implying that Havanese people are doing this and that, and a lot of it certainly does not fit in what I have experienced.


That's true....I think there is a lot of hyperbole and exaggeration in what is said there. Sure, I've seen Havs in the ring and wondered what their breeder was trying to accomplish in one area or another. And I've even seen those Havs win when my opinion was different :biggrin1: But by and large, most Hav breeders are indeed trying to breed to the standard as written. Sometimes in the world of dogs it seems when one of us is not doing as well as we'd like in the ring that suddenly it is not our own dog who might have a fault or two, but everything is instead wrong with those other 10 or 20 dogs in the ring that day...LOL. 


chrismom said:


> Like the bowed leg thing. This is like the main seling point for them. Its like- if a dog has a slightly easty westy foot- then oh no- it will get all of these other conditions. That is just plain crazy- plenty of dogs in all breeds have imperfect legs, and that is all they have, including most havanese that are not perfect. Bowed legs- that are truly bowed-now that is a whole another issue. If a dog truly has bowed legs, it should not be in a breeding situation, and I can't imagine anyone doing so. But a slight turned out foot, or a little 'out at the elbows' - that is more than likely just a regular fault like anything else, but the HSD people are making it all out to be something more. I think this is an issue they can confuse the pet people with, and they are. I think they are really using the fact that Joanne Baldwin is a vet to their full advantage- thats crazy. I wonder if the pet people have lookd at her own dogs pedigrees? Not any thing different from every havanese out there. Her foundation bitch- I had to laugh when I saw- how regular her pedigree was! Not all cuban imports or something unusual like she makes it sound. SO if the dogs in that pedigree are acceptable to her as a foundation, then why criticize everyone else?-lol


Yes, I think the focus on bowed legs was what caused some of the main HSD breeders to "forget" to CERF their dogs back in 2006. A couple of those dogs were heavily used at public stud during that time. Sure, their legs may have been straight, but why would you hang your hat on that and stop doing CERFs. Of course, maybe they just couldn't find the time to do it <g>.

And when those foundation dogs are all announced by HSD, I think those who care to do the research will find that they are as normal as every other Havanese when it comes to their own health and the health issues they have produced. Right now...it seems to be a good sales tool and a way to scare and intimidate buyers and breeders to come on board.


----------



## chrismom

all very well said!!!!

Couldn't agree more!!!


----------



## SMARTY

[

This isn't a recent phenomenon, as even back in 2003 only a very small percentage of the top 20 contained HSD dogs. The comment about some of the most successful breeders leaving to go to HSD just leaves me puzzled as I don't see that in the numbers and records over the past several years. I'm not sure they were ever a dominant force in the breed, but moreso a dominant force for a very close group of breeders and friends maybe.
[/QUOTE]

Cheryl, mine was just an observation from this forum and the names I recognize in general.


----------



## Doc

*Not so...*



tejanoHavs said:


> Only Havanese to ever break into the top 20 for the entire Toy Group didn't belong to an HSD owner. No, that honor went to Connie Field last year with her Lotus (Harbor's It Had to be Me)...and that's a "big deal" in terms of conformation showing honors.


Keebler was in the top twenty toys, albeit not for a very long period of time. I guess you blinked, and missed it. Popped in to answer a private message, forgot my log in and by the time I restored my password, I can't remember how to find that message. Julie, why don't you just email me at [email protected] with that question so I don't have to log on here again and get sucked into this forum...egads.

Doc
www.elfinhavanasilkdog.com


----------



## juniormint

tejanoHavs said:


> Yes, I think the focus on bowed legs was what caused some of the main HSD breeders to "forget" to CERF their dogs back in 2006. A couple of those dogs were heavily used at public stud during that time. Sure, their legs may have been straight, but why would you hang your hat on that and stop doing CERFs. Of course, maybe they just couldn't find the time to do it <g>.


I think many people have learned to steer clear of your sharp elbows, but if you are going to show us how to research people's dogs and throw elbows, you need to make sure you aren't guilty yourself. I'm sure everyone has good reasons for CERFs not being updated, you included. But even your Senor Puente doesn't show as being CERFed in 2006.

http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1055597#animal


----------



## Thumper

juniormint said:


> But even your Senor Puente doesn't show as being CERFed in 2006.
> 
> http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1055597#animal


I'm not Cherie, but I see that she is no longer breeding Senor Puente, no litters have been registered since 2005. Maybe he's retired. In fact, I think she may have mentioned him previous thread.

Kara


----------



## Melissa Miller

juniormint said:


> I think many people have learned to steer clear of your sharp elbows, but if you are going to show us how to research people's dogs and throw elbows, you need to make sure you aren't guilty yourself. I'm sure everyone has good reasons for CERFs not being updated, you included. But even your Senor Puente doesn't show as being CERFed in 2006.
> 
> http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1055597#animal


Before we go looking up every dog someone owns, as thats probably the only one of hers you found who had not been CERFED in 06, consider that sometimes YOU MAY NOT KNOW WHY! And Juniormint, I don't mean that nasty, but you are right, sometimes people have very good reasons, but alot of times they don't.

Thats Goldies daddy, and Im not going to speak for Cherie, but I will be watching this thread as I will not let Tito get trashed in anyway.


----------



## Melissa Miller

Doc said:


> Keebler was in the top twenty toys, albeit not for a very long period of time. I guess you blinked, and missed it. Popped in to answer a private message, forgot my log in and by the time I restored my password, I can't remember how to find that message. Julie, why don't you just email me at [email protected] with that question so I don't have to log on here again and get sucked into this forum...egads.
> 
> Doc
> www.elfinhavanasilkdog.com


Oh Doc, I knew you missed us! Its not late to come back to the other side....hehe.... Im just teasing.


----------



## Dawna

It's not really a bad place to get 'sucked into'. lol 
There are hundreds of other threads besides this one. 
Some people on this forum have still never heard of an HSD


----------



## Tom King

I think the reason that we, personally, don't have a dog in any top 20 is that we have never specialed a dog (except once when Pam wanted to prove a point to me about my handling and one weekend where there were people who wanted to see Posh and we didn't have anyone else who needed showing), never used a handler, never campaigned a dog, etc., etc. We have not had any trouble finishing any dog that we sent into the ring. I will insert a brag here and note that the #1 Havanese did get Best of Opposite the day that Posh got a group placing out of the BredBy class. 

We have never gone looking for show homes and even much prefer a good pet home. Our dogs are shown in shows that we can drive to from home and only until they are finished. Every one of our dogs who has gone into the ring has not only finished easily but is a pet shown by it's owner. Ask any handler how much competition a pet shown by it's owner is.

Judges Education's primary purpose is to educate NEW judges who are just applying for the breed to the current standard. There are very few of these. I looked throught the current Gazette and only saw three people listed in all the categories that were going after the Havanese breed. Very few, if any, of these new judges are in the ring judging yet. The ones doing the judging in the ring now for the most part can do what they want. In what other breed can a dog get a group placing on one day and not placed in it's class the next day? (This was not Posh by the way) It's not a fault of Judges Education. I've personally seen over a shoulder how much work goes into it. Ask Jane. I don't look to find a blame anywhere. To me it just looks like irreconcilable differences.

For us it is a fork in the road and a there was no way not to have to make a choice. We are breeding the type of dog which we do, which closely meets the current standard as well as the oldest ones. I believe that the chance of the Havanese standard getting changed again is inevitable and that chances of the Standard going back towards the oldest one don't exist. I believe the HSD standard will not only go back to the oldest standard but will stay there.

We can stay with a group where some test and some don't and some even argue against it or we can go with a group that to get in you have to test. Most probably dont' understand how much time this will save out of every day for us.

We can stay with a group that says that easty/westy is okay and that you can't help but breed some bad legs and some are either breeding them or not willing to show people the dogs they are breeding and use their own version of how to justify it or we can go with a group that you have to show what you've got to start with to get in the door and then further have to let people who know what they are looking at put their hands on the dogs. Personally, if I had a dog that had CD I would want to see both parents up close and personal. I'm not interested in continuing this as an argument. Both sides has argued their positions enough for anyone to see where they stand. It' good that people looking for an addition to their families understand both viewpoints. 

If we didn't go with the group that is doing things the way we are doing them anyway, where will we be 5 years down the road? I like continuity.

I don't agree with everything the current government is doing with our country right now either but this is still the country that I want to live. One thing you can count on from us is that we will be doing our part.


----------



## Tom King

Forgot to mention. I've got to go again for a few days so I won't be able to make any reply until next week.


----------



## tejanoHavs

SMARTY said:


> [
> 
> Cheryl, mine was just an observation from this forum and the names I recognize in general.


I hope you don't think I was criticizing. Just pointing out how perception and reality can be different sometimes


----------



## tejanoHavs

Doc said:


> Keebler was in the top twenty toys, albeit not for a very long period of time. I guess you blinked, and missed it.
> Doc
> www.elfinhavanasilkdog.com


You're right...I didn't look at monthly stats, just the year end stats since monthly stats can change so drastically, especially as we start each new year. Thanks for pointing that out. It's kinda like one of those fine print things on brags in magazine ads....#1 in such and such system for this particular month in this particular year....grin.


----------



## tejanoHavs

*HE'S DEAD*



juniormint said:


> I think many people have learned to steer clear of your sharp elbows, but if you are going to show us how to research people's dogs and throw elbows, you need to make sure you aren't guilty yourself. I'm sure everyone has good reasons for CERFs not being updated, you included. But even your Senor Puente doesn't show as being CERFed in 2006.
> 
> http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1055597#animal


That would be because he is dead Minty, Barb, Greg or whoever you really are. He died last Dec. and that is when all of my Havs go in for their annual CERF...Dec. of each year.

I'd guess that is probably a good excuse, although it still brings tears to my eyes to type this. Thanks! And before tongues begin to wag, I found Tito dead on my pool deck with two small puncture wounds on his body. He was starting to stiffen up by the time I found him. We live on an acre here that backs up to what was a 200+ acre ranch and they have started to clear it to build a new neighborhood there  As a result, we now have lots more "critters" in our yard. We now have copperhead snakes on a fairly regular basis, and the first day of summer my 13 yo son stepped on a scorpion. Ouch.

I have lost one other Havanese in a similar fashion a few months prior to losing Tito....found with two small puncture wounds to the neck in a corner of my yard. My champion girl...Cajun...who was supposed to be bred on her next heat cycle.

Both are buried beside our home with two little gold stars hanging on the arbor entry there (thanks to one of my owners who knows how heartbroken I am).

Barb/minty/greg....I've tried to be very nice in all of this and to replace marketing hype and perceptions coming from "experts" with facts. That's all. I don't think I'm the one with sharp elbows at all. Now, I'm going to sign off and go cry by myself guys as that was really uncalled for.


----------



## Honey Poney's

I am going to repete again, and again, and again.

There are bad breeders and there are good breeders.

In EVERY breed,

and there will be bad breeders in the HSD also.

I haven't got anything against the HSD but if you want to go, than go.

When I read the first page of Doc's website it just makes me feel very,very angry.

It's easy to win when you make others bad !!!!
Write about your self, but don't write about others !!!

This has an influence on Europe to !!!
We are all Havanese breeders you know !!!


----------



## mckennasedona

Sorry to hijack the subject but..

Cherie, I'm so sorry to hear about your Havs. That is just heartbreaking.

I find it sad that it seems to be taken for granted that because someone's dog doesn't show up in the CERF records or OFA records that it's because they failed some test. Not everyone is trying to hide something.

Susan


----------



## Thumper

Cherie,

I'm SO very sorry for your loss. :grouphug: :grouphug: 

hugs,
Kara and Gucci :kiss:


----------



## Thumper

tejanoHavs said:


> Barb/minty/greg....I've tried to be very nice in all of this and to replace marketing hype and perceptions coming from "experts" with facts. That's all. I don't think I'm the one with sharp elbows at all.


And THANK YOU for presenting so many facts. You have been gracious, kind and extremely informative...never a sharp elbow. You are a gem, Cherie...in the world of breeding, and just in the world in general.

I referred my mother to you (she's lives in Midland and fell in love with my Gucci Girl last week! Now, she HAS to have a Hav) :biggrin1:

Hugs!
Kara


----------



## juniormint

Melissa Miller said:


> Before we go looking up every dog someone owns, as thats probably the only one of hers you found who had not been CERFED in 06, consider that sometimes YOU MAY NOT KNOW WHY! And Juniormint, I don't mean that nasty, but you are right, sometimes people have very good reasons, but alot of times they don't.
> 
> Thats Goldies daddy, and Im not going to speak for Cherie, but I will be watching this thread as I will not let Tito get trashed in anyway.


Melissa I agree with you. But it works both ways. If it's ok to point out someone didn't CERF their dogs in a year, and imply that's a bad thing. Then it's ok for it to be pointed out. And what would be worse? CERFing a dog from say 99-07 and missing a year or CERFing a dog 02, 04, 05 and then stopping? If a dog got E1-Lens, punctate cataract *significance unknown in 05 and was only 4 yrs old, do you think someone who makes a point out pointing out who is missing CERFs would want to know if the punctate cataract is progressing?

Maybe she does CERF but doesn't send it in because she's only following it for herself and those who own dogs, but people in glass houses........

Now I believe Cherie does health test and does breed nice dogs. I think she cares about her dogs and the dogs of others. But then so do lots of people on both sides of the issue. Maybe we can pull our elbows in and accomplish something together.


----------



## juniormint

I feel terrible for using Tito as my example. I'm sorry for bringing up such an emotional topic for you.

However my point remains the same. We should all quit throwing rocks. 

And I'm Barb, not Greg.


----------



## Doggie Nut

I just checked this thread today....I can't believe this is still so hostile! Cherie, I don't know you personally but I have never once sensed any "elbowing" coming from you at all! And I want to say how much I appreciate that since i am a hav novice and am trying to bring myself up to date as much as possible.....your educated posts have done just that! I am very sorry for your losses with your dear havs and also sorry for how low people will go to make a point. It is true that people shouldn't throw stones especially stones of ignorance. There are two "slogans" that I hear alot.....one is "Let's just agree to disagree" which is basically an oxymoron....you either agree or you don't! Second is "Better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission"......sounds noble but most just use it as an excuse to do whatever they want! Not sure what I just said has to do with this post but if the shoe fits! eace:By the way, Cherie if I was there I would cry with you!


----------



## dboudreau

Cherie, I'm very sorry to hear of the loss of your dear pets. I can't imagine how horrible it would be to find your pet like that. It brings tears to my eyes.


----------



## SMARTY

Cheri, I did not take it personally, just defending my question. 

I am so sorry for the loss of your dogs. We also have copperheads and I am always on the lookout for them.


----------



## tejanoHavs

*thanks*

Thanks guys....my eyes are no longer red and I'm not sniffling. I know...I'm a wimp and some old time breeders tell me this is not a hobby for wimps <g>.

Your group hugs and kind words really are so helpful and I'm glad that for the most part folks don't think I've been rude as that's never my intent.

Someone (I think juniormint) asked about Tito's CERF history after his punctate and this is a really good point to make and is something I didn't know myself until I was in this situation. During his last year, Tito was CERFed 3 times (if one of my owners had a dog in town, I went with them so I could have him re-done). My purpose was totally selfish....I wanted to be able to have the option to use him at stud again myself if his punctates went away and stayed gone! And it was equally important for owners of Tito's pups to know if those punctates progressed or if they went away. Over the course of those 3 CERF exams, the size of his puncates decreased to the point that at the last exam the optho didn't make any notes. I asked him to please double check as I was tracking those punctates and he looked again and then said that he saw just a very tiny little something there. I asked him to note that on the form and made a plan to go back in a few months when I hoped he couldn't see anything...even at a second glance <g>. That 4th exam never happened.

But, what I did learn in the process was that Tito will ALWAYS show as a punctate cataract on the CERF database on their website, even if his punctates were gone. They NEVER remove a category, even if it is no longer applicable to the dog. On the flip side, they NEVER list a dog who has failed CERF in their database. Technically, that makes sense as the dog who fails is not eligible for a CERF#. That dog who failed will just show as being past due on their CERF exams. And therein lies the point in being diligent in having them done annually. But when trying to make breeding decisions, it is very frustrating to try to use their data.

To answer the question about why do we care about others' dogs and their health testing, I don't think it has to do with casting stones or living in glass houses. I think it just depends on who the dog is and what the owner is doing with that dog. There's a huge difference between a dog who is actively being used at public stud without a current CERF exam (or other health tests for that matter) vs. one who is not being used actively at stud. We do have health experts within our breed who were actively using their dogs at public stud and who did not have a current CERF. And if you plan to create your own new breed with prominent claims that these dogs are healthier than the previous breed, then you really need to be bullet proof in backing up that claim. Otherwise, health testing would only be an issue to those wanting to own and breed HSDs. Make it your sales pitch and then it moves to a different level.


----------



## Havtahava

Cherie, I'm really sorry about Tito and Cajun. I can't even imagine what you've gone through.

I did not know that part about a dog always showing a punctate even after it is gone. Thanks for sharing that. I am always looking up health testing on dogs, and it isn't to cast stones, but to learn so I can hopefully find out if there are multiple problems in a family line that I'm considering using. I like to have knowledge before I lock into a decision.


----------



## Melissa Miller

Awww Cherie... good info... I have to admit, I was taken a back when I saw Tito's name. It wasn't my place to say anything...but I am very protective over my baby's daddies...hehe... Im so thankful for what he did while he was here. Tito had some gorgeous champions and non champions alike. Im sooo happy I have my Goldie. She is with a doubt, one of a kind. I can NOT imagine what that would have been like for you. 

One thing I think we all agree on is its so important to health test. 
Im thankful for everything the good breeders do.


----------



## whitBmom

juniormint said:


> I feel terrible for using Tito as my example. I'm sorry for bringing up such an emotional topic for you.
> 
> However my point remains the same. We should all quit throwing rocks.
> 
> And I'm Barb, not Greg.


 Minty, the only one that seems to throw dirty rocks is you, and to be honest I really don't care how it sounds, as YOU don't seem to care how YOU sound. Your comments are sickening. I have never seen you post anywhere but here on this thread with your so-called "factual" insinuations.

At least the other HSD supporters have not resorted to low-ball comments as you have. Sorry, Melissa, but I HAD to say this.


----------



## chrismom

Quote from Tom King


> We can stay with a group that says that easty/westy is okay and that you can't help but breed some bad legs and some are either breeding them or not willing to show people the dogs they are breeding and use their own version of how to justify it or we can go with a group that you have to show what you've got to start with to get in the door and then further have to let people who know what they are looking at put their hands on the dogs.


Who is saying that breeding Easy Westy or bowed legs is fine? I mentioned something about the Easty Westy thing, but never said that i think it is fine or something that people should be doing. WHen I mentioned it I was pointing out that like anything else, a foot that points out a little is a fault, just like anything else is, and that something like that is no indication that the dog is defective, as it feels is implied here.

All breeds have dogs that might have legs that are not perfect, or some other fault, it should be treated just like any other thing, not like something huge. Of course, don't breed legs that are far from right, and if turning out feet, is a big issue in a line, stay away from that line alltogether, but if someones pet dog has a foot that is not pointing perfectly straight ahead, its not the end of the world-


----------



## Thumper

Helen is right.

You've made several low ball and/or condescending comments, and its not the same thing to have a dog *currently breeding* miss chic testing and a dog that hasn't been bred in *TWO* years. How is that even similar?

If you've made the decision to buy a HSD, great! Good luck! Greg is a great guy.

But can the attacks and condescending remarks here please stop?

Kara


----------



## chrismom

Thumperlove- while I totally agree with your opinion about some of her comments, I have to make a little comment about this thought too. I am not pointing fingers, or even having any dog or person in mind. But I personally think that even if a dog, or really- especially if - a dog hasn't been bred in two years like you were using for an example, then it does still need CERF'd. If a dog passes CERF really young, then never retested, then that is not really much info.


----------



## Thumper

chrismom said:


> But I personally think that even if a dog, or really- especially if - a dog hasn't been bred in two years like you were using for an example, then it does still need CERF'd. If a dog passes CERF really young, then never retested, then that is not really much info.


I do see your point. I'm still on the learning curve here so bare with me. It just seems like it should be more crucial for a dog that is currently breeding to keep up with it. But I do understand your point, it is valid.

You have made many other valid points, as well. I have learned quite a bit on this thread.

Regards,
Kara


----------



## tejanoHavs

Thumperlove said:


> I do see your point. I'm still on the learning curve here so bare with me. It just seems like it should be more crucial for a dog that is currently breeding to keep up with it. But I do understand your point, it is valid.
> 
> You have made many other valid points, as well. I have learned quite a bit on this thread.
> 
> Regards,
> Kara


I personally think all Havs owned and used by breeders should be tested, and the recommendation for CERF testing is to do that annually up to the age of 7 years. It would also help our breed if pet owners would do the same since we as breeders don't know truly what our dogs are producing if all of the puppies are not tested.

But it is even more critical that dogs who are actively being used for breeding be current in terms of their testing. One of my role models as a stud dog owner used to test her boy every 6 months just so she could be certain that he was still clear of any sign of cataracts. While some stud dog owners are holding their breath and wouldn't want to know anything potentially negative at all, here she was....walking the walk and truly wanting to be certain her boy wasn't bringing something damaging into the breeding. And, she continued to CERF this boy twice a year until age 10 since he had been used at stud and she knew that the owners of his pups would want to know if he ever developed an issue (he didn't....isn't that good karma at work?). Her boy was used at stud, maybe 10 times, and produced 20 champions himself. That is true character, rather than the mark of someone who just wants to make $$$ using their boys as studs.

A stud can make a huge impact on a breed much more easily than a girl can, simply because he can be much more prolific in terms of pups created. The studs I mentioned who had missed their CERF by more than a year were actively being used to sire litters and probably have been used at stud 60-75 times all together. That could represent about 375 to 525 puppies and income from those stud dogs of about $125,000 to $150,000 to that stud dog owner over the life of those dogs to date. To me, that rises to the highest level of inexcusable behavior in so many aspects.


----------



## tejanoHavs

Havtahava said:


> I did not know that part about a dog always showing a punctate even after it is gone. Thanks for sharing that. I am always looking up health testing on dogs, and it isn't to cast stones, but to learn so I can hopefully find out if there are multiple problems in a family line that I'm considering using. I like to have knowledge before I lock into a decision.


I don't think many people realize that CERF operates in this way. I spoke to them twice personally and was surprised as I think it limits the ways in which we as breeders can utilize their data.

Good for you Kimberly for taking the time to do the digging and research before making your breeding choices. Too many breeders do not take it to that level. Like you, I'm vigilant in researching the background of dogs I may be thinking of breeding. I actually go so far as to create my own vertical pedigrees for those dogs I am most interested in so I can place the CERF results of their ancestors, get and siblings in those pedigrees to be seen. It has been a huge eye opener for me as some of those studs who are healthy themselves sure do create some problems in their puppies and 2nd generations. It does take two to tango when producing issues, but I've tried to steer clear of certain studs after doing this research manually.


----------



## tejanoHavs

Melissa Miller said:


> Awww Cherie... good info... I have to admit, I was taken a back when I saw Tito's name. It wasn't my place to say anything...but I am very protective over my baby's daddies...hehe... Im so thankful for what he did while he was here. Tito had some gorgeous champions and non champions alike. Im sooo happy I have my Goldie. She is with a doubt, one of a kind. I can NOT imagine what that would have been like for you.
> 
> One thing I think we all agree on is its so important to health test.
> Im thankful for everything the good breeders do.


Thanks. Melissa! You can stand up for Tito's name any time! And I love each and every one of the kids he put here on this earth. You will never know how special it is to see their photos and hear their stories. I'm just lucky that I get to hear from so many of those who own his beautiful babies still.


----------



## Julie

Cherie,
I'm sorry to read about the loss of two of your precious havs.That must be hard.Do you know exactly what animal it was?Snake?Coyote?Etc.?That must be very scary........
Again-I'm sorry to read that,and then to have someone question the cerfs.....:sorry:


----------



## aradelat

How can you find out if a dog has been CERF tested or not?


----------



## Thumper

aradelat said:


> How can you find out if a dog has been CERF tested or not?


Here's the link for the database:

http://www.offa.org/search.html


----------



## havanesebyha

Oh Cherie,

I am so very sorry about your two babies! I know what you have gone through as I found my Old English Sheepdog with bite marks on his neck, he was only 4 years old when he left us and writing this I still cry to think of the horrible pit bull that broke into our yard and took my baby from me! This was 21 years ago now. I sure feel your pain and I'm very sorry.

Libby


----------



## Havtahava

The CERF database is listed here: http://www.vmdb.org/verify.html

You can look up a dog by his registered name, AKC registration number or his CERF number.

The OFA database (offa.org) usually has the CERF dates also, but the CERF database is a bit more in depth (and will tell you exactly what was wrong with the dog if there is a comment to be made). I've noticed that sometimes OFA doesn't post CERF if that is the only test the dog has had done. I have found dogs posted with only BAER done, but I don't think I've found any with just CERF.

So, if you don't find a dog with CERF on OFA, or has a comment on the results, you may want to go directly to the CERF database to find it.


----------



## havanesebyha

whitBmom said:


> Minty, the only one that seems to throw dirty rocks is you, and to be honest I really don't care how it sounds, as YOU don't seem to care how YOU sound. Your comments are sickening. I have never seen you post anywhere but here on this thread with your so-called "factual" insinuations.
> 
> At least the other HSD supporters have not resorted to low-ball comments as you have. Sorry, Melissa, but I HAD to say this.


Juniormint or Barb,

I was really wondering why you have ever joined this fine forum as you never have anything nice to say? Do you even have a Havanese as your own as you seem so mysterious and have never mentioned a four legged baby, and only reply to this thread "Two Diff Breeds". You appeared a short time after this long thread began, so only one needs to wonder why? 

Libby


----------



## SMARTY

Nicely said Libby, I have wondered the same thing.


----------



## Julie

Juniormint-Barb-
Alot of us have had our doubts and antennas up since you joined the forum.Maybe you could say who you really are and perhaps post an avatar or something........?


----------



## tejanoHavs

Julie said:


> Cherie,
> I'm sorry to read about the loss of two of your precious havs.That must be hard.Do you know exactly what animal it was?Snake?Coyote?Etc.?That must be very scary........
> Again-I'm sorry to read that,and then to have someone question the cerfs.....:sorry:


Thanks Julie...and again to everyone who has been so very kind! You know, one of the most difficult things to accept is that we will never know exactly what happened. Since we weren't home at the time of either incident. One (Cajun) was around dusk and we decided at that point that we would be certain the doggie door to our backyard (a fenced half acre) would remain closed from about 6pm on. The other (Tito) was a little earlier and was particularly hard on me. We had just been in a pretty bad auto accident on the way home from school with my boys. A lady just slammed into our van in a parking lot. She didn't see a stop sign and was going about 40 mph. Our van (which I use to transport our 24 year old son who uses a wheelchair) was badly damaged and my teenage son received a concussion. So, I was pretty shook up to begin with and then came home to find Tito laying dead on the pool deck. Just so sad.

The common thing between the two was that both were late afternoon/early evening. Neither had any real signs of trauma...no obvious broken bones or fractures, no blood of any sort really, no abrasions or bite marks. But on both dogs we did find 2 very small puncture wounds when I examined them closely. The were spaced fairly close together and my vet though it was most likely a snake bite.

We do have coyotes here though, along with cougars (on our driveway for goodness sakes!), racoons, lots of deer (a big one in the front yard today), snakes (copperheads and garden variety) and scorpions. I keep saying that I really am a city girl!!! The coyotes, cougars, racoons and deer are really so used to humans that they don't scare off easily although the dogs barking and chasing usually do the trick. Sounds like a scene from Green Acres (but I don't resemble ZsaZsa at all!).


----------



## tejanoHavs

havanesebyha said:


> Oh Cherie,
> 
> I am so very sorry about your two babies! I know what you have gone through as I found my Old English Sheepdog with bite marks on his neck, he was only 4 years old when he left us and writing this I still cry to think of the horrible pit bull that broke into our yard and took my baby from me! This was 21 years ago now. I sure feel your pain and I'm very sorry.
> 
> Libby


Thanks, Libby. That had to be such a horrible experience for you and your OES. To even imagine a dog we love being attacked in our own yards. You just consider that to be a safe haven. I know what you mean about still crying, but I think that just means that the dog left a special place in our hearts!


----------



## tejanoHavs

Havtahava said:


> The CERF database is listed here: http://www.vmdb.org/verify.html
> 
> You can look up a dog by his registered name, AKC registration number or his CERF number.
> 
> The OFA database (offa.org) usually has the CERF dates also, but the CERF database is a bit more in depth (and will tell you exactly what was wrong with the dog if there is a comment to be made). I've noticed that sometimes OFA doesn't post CERF if that is the only test the dog has had done. I have found dogs posted with only BAER done, but I don't think I've found any with just CERF.
> 
> So, if you don't find a dog with CERF on OFA, or has a comment on the results, you may want to go directly to the CERF database to find it.


That is true and is why I usually just go to the CERF database when I'm looking specifically at eyes. I've noticed that sometimes on OFA it doesn't show if the CERF is out of date (must be a software glitch) and it also takes about 4-6 weeks in between the time the report is published on the CERF website for it to be pulled into the OFA website. All of the other data (hips, patellas, elbows, BAER, etc.) found on the OFA website comes directly from databases that they maintain themselves there at OFA. CERF is different as they receive a file monthly from the folks at VMDB who keep the CERF database.

OFA's big benefit is the vertical pedigree feature, so when I'm researching I usually have both up, looking from one to the other. I keep saying there must be a better way and have tried to convince OFA to include CERF data as part of their vertical pedigree feature.


----------



## Julie

Oh Cherie......I'm so sorry.Goodness an accident too that day.Hopefully your son recovered from the accident etc.My Grandma used to say bad things happen in 3's.I always pray she was wrong!:angel: Most times 1 bad thing a day is plenty for me!And if it can skip a few days----Whoppee!Know what I mean?
Do you have a special needs child too?I have 1 who is 6.........


----------



## havanesebyha

tejanoHavs said:


> Thanks, Libby. That had to be such a horrible experience for you and your OES. To even imagine a dog we love being attacked in our own yards. You just consider that to be a safe haven. I know what you mean about still crying, but I think that just means that the dog left a special place in our hearts!


You know the hardest part was when we found out the Pitbull had been nawing at our back fence for sometime and we didn't even know it until it was too late. He was owned by a drug dealer a street over from us. This same dog had pinned several neighbors in their own yards, but no one spoke up about it until two weeks after we found our baby dead in his backyard and someone had shot the Pitbull in an apartment complex three blocks away from us. I think that is why it took me so long to get another dog. We moved 20 miles from that house five years after this happened. I still have my "Elliott" picture up on my refrigerature to this day. That is one of the reasons I fell in love with the Havanese looks as they look like a mini Old English Sheepdog :biggrin1: He sure did leave a very special place in my heart!

Thank you,

Libby


----------



## aradelat

*thanks...*



Thumperlove said:


> Here's the link for the database:
> 
> http://www.offa.org/search.html


Thanks for the link. And you ladies are great mothers, you certainly love your children and have done great thinks to make them shine.
I feel like an idiot for worrying so much about Pablo's (slightly) bowed legs.


----------



## whitBmom

I think you ladies have put quite A LOT into perspective. You do love your children, and you are amazing women. The mean spirited comments on this thread really have been put into perspective - they clearly are meaningless. Thank you ladies for putting things in perspective.


----------



## Julie

I started a new thread in "the coffee shop" for special needs children.......please post there....:sorry: for hi-jacking this thread.....if I could--I would move it all!:focus: :focus: :focus: :focus: :focus: :focus: :focus:


----------



## Dawna

One last hijack.......It's Melissa's Birthday!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Julie

:cheer2: Happy Birthday Melissa :cheer2:
:drum: :drum: :drum: :drum: :drum: :drum:


----------



## Thumper




----------



## Melissa Miller

Thanks for all the birthday wishes!!!!  

I moved the posts from here to the Special Needs, so a couple posts here may not make sense.


----------



## Julie

Thanks Melissa!
It's your birthday..........:whoo: :drum: :whoo: :drum:
:biggrin1: You're Awesome!:biggrin1:


----------



## SMARTY

:whoo: :whoo: eace: eace: :flame: :flame: : :llama: :llama: :cheer2: :cheer2:

Happy Birthday


----------



## marjrc

Cherie wrote:_ "I personally think all Havs owned and used by breeders should be tested, and the recommendation for CERF testing is to do that annually up to the age of 7 years. It would also help our breed if pet owners would do the same since we as breeders don't know truly what our dogs are producing if all of the puppies are not tested."_

You know, Cherie, I sure wish Ricky's breeder had this same belief. I don't breed Havanese, but after learning so much from the Hav community and especially from good breeders, I would definitely want to know everything about any pup produced by my boys and/or girls.

Our breeder told me it wasn't at all necessary to test Ricky since he wasn't being bred. She said she had no need for the info on any tests so why bother?  I was kind of hoping she'd be excited about me wanting to test him. Oh well. I learned something.

Is there a Cdn. CERF site that we can check out or is it all one and the same?

Cherie, I'm so very sorry for your loss of two beloved pets. I can't imagine how horrible it was to find them like that! I have always enjoyed your posts and the fact that you seem to research every little thing before stating it as fact. I appreciate you sharing your concerns and knowledge here with the rest of us. Thank you!


----------



## irnfit

I had Kodi CERF'd and he was normal. I will also have Shelby tested. Not because the breeders wanted it...I want to know. Since early onset cataracts seem to be a problem with this breed<I want to know if anything is wrong. I don't think the other tests are necessary if I am not breeding.


----------



## whitBmom

When Oreo is one, I am expected by my breeder to have him CERF'd. She wants to know about any health issues that Oreo may have. As for any other tests, I am not expected to do that, as it is not in our contract, but I do have my eye out for CD that is for sure.


----------



## Jane

My breeder puts in her contract that we are required to CERF our dogs annually for 6 years and report the results to her. I mail her the paperwork and she gets it entered into the database. That applies to even companion (non-show) dogs, which mine are 

Jane


----------



## JASHavanese

tejanoHavs said:


> Barb/minty/greg....I've tried to be very nice in all of this and to replace marketing hype and perceptions coming from "experts" with facts. That's all. I don't think I'm the one with sharp elbows at all. Now, I'm going to sign off and go cry by myself guys as that was really uncalled for.


That was horribly uncalled for and I'm so sorry it hurt you.


----------



## JASHavanese

Olliesmom said:


> Too funny! eace:
> 
> I do have to say tho, I get a kick out of people asking me what breed of dog I have....
> 
> My answer is always - Havanese.....
> 
> Then they look at me and say... "which one? And what is the other one?"
> 
> I do not dare open that can of worms to anyone who asks!!!! :frusty: :frusty: :frusty:


Austin is 100% HAVANESE. Since I'm his breeder, I ought to know. Someone told me the other day that they heard I was split with some havs as havanese and at least one as a HSD. When I got done laughing ound: I told them I don't believe in breeding designer dogs. uke: 
For some reason it still makes me giggle that they're trying to bring people into this that want no part of it. :biggrin1: Next think you know, they'll be saying Cherie has a designer dog too ound:


----------



## JASHavanese

Dawna said:


> One last hijack.......It's Melissa's Birthday!!!!!!!!!!!


Happy Birthday Melissa! arty: Sorry, I've been on vacation and am way behind. Hope it was a great one!:whoo:


----------



## JASHavanese

havanesebyha said:


> Juniormint or Barb,
> 
> I was really wondering why you have ever joined this fine forum as you never have anything nice to say? Do you even have a Havanese as your own as you seem so mysterious and have never mentioned a four legged baby, and only reply to this thread "Two Diff Breeds". You appeared a short time after this long thread began, so only one needs to wonder why?
> 
> Libby


To pm people to find out what they think of Greg as a breeder. :spy: Then what you say gets twisted and turned to something that you didn't say. :crazy: Someone needs their hormone level checked or they need to take a closer look up their kilt and check the equipment ound:  
:focus:


----------



## Sunnygirl

My contract with the breeder also requires that I annually CERF my pup (who is a pet) and report the results. I didn't understand that requirement initially, but now I do. Luckily there's a place nearby that does annual CERF clinics.


----------



## tejanoHavs

marjrc said:


> Is there a Cdn. CERF site that we can check out or is it all one and the same?
> 
> Cherie, I'm so very sorry for your loss of two beloved pets. I can't imagine how horrible it was to find them like that! I have always enjoyed your posts and the fact that you seem to research every little thing before stating it as fact. I appreciate you sharing your concerns and knowledge here with the rest of us. Thank you!


Hi there,

I've been away from the PC for a while, but am catching up  They do offer CERF exams in Canada (Australia and Switzerland too, besides the States). Other countries in Europe offer a similar eye exam registration (maybe one of the European breeders can help me remember the name of that group in Europe). Their exam and the report they receive is very similar to the one we are used to from CERF.

Anyway, all of the CERF approved clinics are listed online at http://www.vmdb.org/clinic.html.

Thanks for your kind words too! I've always been into researching things...ever since I took the easy route and just believed a few things that were being quoted as gospel truth that weren't always exactly correct. Everyone just naturally puts their own slant on things as we all have our own opinions. When I say something, I'd also like to give people the benefit of being able to look at that info on their own. For years I've said if I could do anything it would be to educate buyers more fully before they've bought that first Hav and to motivate those who already have them, who show and who breed to take the time to do their own research and not just allow themselves to be spoon fed from any one person or group of people. Like the old Saturday morning cartoon time commerical used to say "Knowledge is power"


----------



## tejanoHavs

Sunnygirl said:


> My contract with the breeder also requires that I annually CERF my pup (who is a pet) and report the results. I didn't understand that requirement initially, but now I do. Luckily there's a place nearby that does annual CERF clinics.


One added benefit of annual CERFing that I explain to my owners is that in the general scheme of things that while cataracts are not life threatening, if caught early they are very operable. I remember one rescue Havanese in particular, named Oreo, who had his cataracts surgically treated by Dr. Kirk Gelatt down in FL. A good friend of mine fostered him during the treatment and recovery.

So, checking those eyes annually with a vet optho will find any possible problems early and will allow you the option of deciding if you wish to have them surgically corrected. An exam by your regular vet will not notice cataracts until they have progressed quite a bit and sometimes surgery is not as successful if you wait until that stage.

So, those annual CERF exams are a good thing for you Havanese as well as for your breeder


----------



## Karen

*Havana Silk Dog*

Hey people, I had a puppy buyer call me not too long ago. She found me on the Havanese Club of Southern CA breeder referral list. I was flabbergasted when she asked me about the Havana Silk Dog Club. She didn't know much about the breed, but had stumbled across the HSDAA website while doing a search for Havanese breeders. I had to laugh at what she said. She said that all of this seemed like a big "pissing contest" to her, LOL, about who has the better dogs. I decided that I was going to put something on my website regarding my opinion of the whole HSD issue. I wanted it to be politically correct and informative. If you do a Google search on HSDAA, my site is now coming up third in the top ten sites, right under the HSDAA website. Check out what I wrote and let me know if you think I succeeded in being "politically correct." I hope I don't offend anyone here. Here is the link: http://avivahavanese.com/pages/the-havana-silk-dog.php
Let me know what you think.
Karen


----------



## Suuske747

Karen I think you've achieved the goal you mention in your post!
Kudos to being able to put it so objectively and factual!
Well done, no one can be offended by it, and it is very informative!
Excellent!


----------



## JASHavanese

Karen said:


> Check out what I wrote and let me know if you think I succeeded in being "politically correct." I hope I don't offend anyone here. Here is the link: http://avivahavanese.com/pages/the-havana-silk-dog.php
> Let me know what you think.
> Karen


You show off! :biggrin1: I'm 4th on yahoo and don't even show up on a google search so I checked my meta tag. Seems I spelled hsdaa wrong in the search tag ound: 
Here's mine (and it looks a lot like Karen's cause she gave me permission to use it) http://www.jashavanese.net./buyerbeware.html
I've had a lot of people ask me if they can copy it and I told them you gave permission for all to use it on the list so hopefully it's really getting around. You did a beautiful job writing that :first:


----------



## irnfit

Karen and Jan,
Just read the info on your link regarding HSDAA. Kudos to both of you. Well
done!!!!!!


----------



## Karen

Thanks Suuske and Jan, 
Actually Jan, I have changed my write up so much that it is not the same piece of work at all! Did you read my new web page on the HSD? I decided that the first one was written out of extreme irritation and and desire to "fight back," and that's not how I'm feeling now at all. Now, I just want to try and stand back and paint an informative picture of what's going on in our breed, minus the anger and frustration. My main purpose in writing this is to help the person new to the breed make some sense out of what's been going on. I do have a worry that people new to the breed will read the HSDAA website and think WOW, these are the best breeders, I can surely trust them! And while I do not mean to imply that the HSDAA breeders are not ethical or reputable, I think their message has the potential for luring buyers to breeders who possibly don't live up to the mission statement of the HSDAA. After all, HSDAA breeders are human like the rest of us. Also, uniformed people might not realize that two straight legged and otherwise healthy Havanese can produce a pup with CD and associated health issues. Their website does not make a statement about that fact or what they will do if one of their puppies has a problem (as far as I can see anyway......maybe I missed something). So, I've made my write up emphasize what a prospective puppy buyer should be looking for in a reputable breeder, so that they can ask the right questions and see through any smoke that the HSDAA website may be blowing (intentionally or unintentionally) to cover their breeders. I mean, how can an organization guarantee that their breeders will be ethical, skillful, and totally honest about what they've produced? They can't and HCA doesn't even try to do that. In fact, the Havanese Club of Southern CA has a disclaimer on their breeder referral list which tells the buyer : " These members are in good standing with the HCSC, but under no circumstances does the HCSC guarantee the services or dogs of any said member(s) nor does it assume any responsibility or liability regarding any agreements you may enter in with any of the breeders listed." That tells you right there that each breeder must stand on their own as far as maintaining their reputation. This is realistic! The goal of my write up is really just to help buyers understand that they should never assume that a HSDAA breeder or puppy are going to be perfect. It's very dangerous to "assume" anything.

So Jan, you might think about rewriting portions of that original write up. It's up to you, but I'm worried that it's slightly inflammatory. I don't think we're helping anyone by inflaming their emotions. I truly am all about breeders and other Havanese fanciers working together for the good of our breed. I don't believe that anger is going to bring us together. It's just going to make a bad situation worse. I don't know what the answer is here, but at least I can try to give the uninformed puppy a heads up on what all the hubbub is about and hopefully give them the info they need to find a good breeder and healthy puppy, whether it be a HSD or a Havanese. JMHOeace:


----------



## JASHavanese

Karen said:


> Thanks Suuske and Jan,
> Actually Jan, I have changed my write up so much that it is not the same piece of work at all! Did you read my new web page on the HSD? I decided that the first one was written out of extreme irritation and and desire to "fight back," and that's not how I'm feeling now at all. :


I just now read it Karen. I'm partial to the first one so I'll keep that on my website. I've gotten so many emails about it saying that it was so well written and thought out and doesn't attack and just gives facts. If that's your irritation mode, you handle it very well :biggrin1:


----------



## Karen

Well good, I'm glad it's serving its purpose and that it is being received well.
Mostly, I'm a weenie when it comes to disagreeing. I like people to get along all the time, which is not realistic, I know. BUT, I won't agree with someone for the sake of getting along if they are saying or doing something that offends me or goes against my fiber. I'm glad to live in a country where I have a right to post my viewpoint in a public place (the Internet) and have it read by others. What a great thing!:whoo: 

Karen


----------



## JASHavanese

irnfit said:


> Karen and Jan,
> Just read the info on your link regarding HSDAA. Kudos to both of you. Well
> done!!!!!!


The kudos go to Karen. She's a beautiful writer. Did you see the page I have that was written by Liz? She's a breeder that was in this from almost the beginning. She got her dogs directly from Dorothy Goodale who is responsible for bringing the breed back to life in America. If you look at your dog's pedigree chances are vey strong that you'll find your Destiny in there. http://www.jashavanese.net./havaneseroots.html


----------



## JASHavanese

Karen said:


> Well good, I'm glad it's serving its purpose and that it is being received well.
> Mostly, I'm a weenie when it comes to disagreeing. I like people to get along all the time, which is not realistic, I know. BUT, I won't agree with someone for the sake of getting along if they are saying or doing something that offends me or goes against my fiber. I'm glad to live in a country where I have a right to post my viewpoint in a public place (the Internet) and have it read by others. What a great thing!:whoo:
> 
> Karen


I don't like confrontation and won't start it but I won't back down from it either. Now if I would have written that page there would probably be lawyers at my door to sue me for slander. Chances are I'd win though :becky:


----------



## Karen

*Letter from Liz*

Jan, I also have this letter saved, but I haven't read it in awhile. Thanks for posting it again today. Wow, what an amazing letter. I can re-read it many times and keep learning things. She sounds like a very neat lady and she expresses herself very well.


----------



## Julie

:yo:Hats off to you Jan and you Karen:yo:

I think you did a great job of explaining the Havanese/HSD issue.I'm thrilled you put Liz's letter on your site Jan.The first time I read that letter I cried,because I felt all these people were attacking her and if it wasn't for her,they wouldn't even have a dog to call anything but Mutt........Thanks.Kudos to you gals!:hug:


----------



## JASHavanese

Julie said:


> :yo:Hats off to you Jan and you Karen:yo:
> 
> I think you did a great job of explaining the Havanese/HSD issue.I'm thrilled you put Liz's letter on your site Jan.The first time I read that letter I cried,because I felt all these people were attacking her and if it wasn't for her,they wouldn't even have a dog to call anything but Mutt........Thanks.Kudos to you gals!:hug:


Like Karen, each time I read it I learn more. There are people we should be thanking instead of spanking and she's one of them. Why do some people always have to try to be 'better' than others? It reminds me of grade school. Maybe one of these days we'll learn from our dogs how to love. They are the world's greatest teacher. *except Karen* :biggrin1:


----------



## Karen

*Thank you, Jan*



JASHavanese said:


> Like Karen, each time I read it I learn more. There are people we should be thanking instead of spanking and she's one of them. Why do some people always have to try to be 'better' than others? It reminds me of grade school. Maybe one of these days we'll learn from our dogs how to love. They are the world's greatest teacher. *except Karen* :biggrin1:


You are KIND to me, Jan!!!  I try hard to be a good teacher, but there are teachers who I think are so much smarter than me. There is a chemistry teacher at our high school that I am in awe of.....She was my son's chem teacher and she did such a good job teaching him. And guess what? Her daughter's name is Willa, same name that I gave to Inky's puppy (but I'm not going to tell her that).

Anyway:focus: I would like to post Liz's letter on my website also. If you can put me in touch with her Jan, I would be very appreciative. I do not have her contact info. Thanks!


----------



## Julie

JASHavanese said:


> Like Karen, each time I read it I learn more. There are people we should be thanking instead of spanking and she's one of them. Why do some people always have to try to be 'better' than others? It reminds me of grade school. Maybe one of these days we'll learn from our dogs how to love. They are the world's greatest teacher. *except Karen* :biggrin1:


Yes--and you always know who they are too--they start out being the jealous one,and later make up lies about other people,and then as they get older they develop the "only way I can feel good is if I put others down" mode and it is so sad........they could be not be happy for someone's accomplishments if they were paid!:sorry:I just know it so well


----------



## Melissa Miller

Julie said:


> Yes--and you always know who they are too--they start out being the jealous one,and later make up lies about other people,and then as they get older they develop the "only way I can feel good is if I put others down" mode and it is so sad........they could be not be happy for someone's accomplishments if they were paid!:sorry:I just know it so well


And lucky for us these type of people are on both sides of this issue. ( Said with sarcasm)


----------



## Julie

Well,I was just referring to people as in just the public.....not dog breeders persay.....

Like in grade school,middle school,high school etc.My daughter has been tormented for years through school from other girls.......


----------



## irnfit

Yes, Jan. Both of my dogs have Destiny in their lines. Yes, I read the letter from Liz on the big list when it was posted.


----------



## ypoole

*CERF*



marjrc said:


> Is there a Cdn. CERF site that we can check out or is it all one and the same?


Hi Marj,
Sorry to take so long to get back to you re your inquiry re CERF. There are several opthamologist in your province. I've copied their names and #'s for you:

Dr. Paule Blouin, DMV, PhD, DACVO
271 des Vosges
St-Lambert, QB, Can J4S 1M1
450-923-0103

Dr. Elise Laperriere
5931 Avenue de Lorimer
Montreal, QB, Can H2G 2p2
514-376-1686

Dr. Michel Carrier
1525 Des Veterinaires
St-Hyacinthe, QB, Can J2S 7C6
450-778-8111

Not sure if any of these are close to you but you might also find a CERF clinic at some dog shows in your area. Once you have the test done the report is sent to the CERF address on the back of the form (with a fee) and the results are posted on the CERF website. It's the same site for the US & Canada.

It's a very simple easily done test. I just had my 13 1/2 yr Beardie done just for curiosity when I did my Havs this year. Of course they all passed.:canada: eace: 
Cheers,
Yvonne
Chicadoro Kennel


----------



## marjrc

HI Yvonne!!! Hey, nice of you to come to the forum.  

Thank you SO much for the info, Yvonne! You didn't have to go to the trouble, hon, but I thank you. I will note the names and locations. The furthest one is St. Hyacinthe, but that is where the training hospital/school is for vets so it's probably a great place to check out. 

I do wonder if it's at all necessary for me to get Ricky's CERF done though. His breeder told me they don't usually do the CERF test until about 2 yrs. of age. She doesn't request it and when I sugg'd I get it done, she didn't really encourage me and doesn't 'need' to know what, if any, results I get. so..... Is it a test that is good for the simple dog owner to get done or is it really not that necessary? Know what I mean?

Thanks so much, once again, Yvonne. You are always such a great source of information and help. eace: Congrats on all your pups getting their tests back a-o.k.!


----------



## ypoole

*CERF*



marjrc said:


> HI Yvonne!!! Hey, nice of you to come to the forum.
> I do wonder if it's at all necessary for me to get Ricky's CERF done though. His breeder told me they don't usually do the CERF test until about 2 yrs. of age. She doesn't request it and when I sugg'd I get it done, she didn't really encourage me and doesn't 'need' to know what, if any, results I get. so..... Is it a test that is good for the simple dog owner to get done or is it really not that necessary? Know what I mean?!


Marj,
Because of the incidence of juvenile cataracts in Havanese, I would certainly recommend the test. That way, dog forbid, if there is a problem you have a handle on it in the early stages. It's a relatively inexpensive test and even if you only do it every second year or so, it could be of help to you.

As to your breeder not "needing" to know the results, well what can I say???
I know I would certainly want and welcome the results on any of my pups. 
To each their own!!

I might have a surprise for you. Lola is expecting and we just might have some puppies on the ground before the picnic. Now I know you suffer from MHS but rest assured there will be counsellors (BG) on site to help you control your urges!!!
Cheers,
Yvonne


----------



## marjrc

Did you say new PUPPIES??? Oooooooooooo , I'm drooling already! As to the counsellors, *who needs them*?! eace:

Yeah, I agree about the "needing to know", and I will heed your advice and get the test done. It can't hurt! Thanks again.


----------



## juliav

Hi Yvonne and :welcome:


----------



## irnfit

Marj, neither breeder required me to get CERF tests. However, if this is the only test I get on my dogs, I feel it is money well spent. Cataracts are something you can help if caught early, so that is why I have them tested. I wouldn't want them to go blind. It costs about $100 here, unless I am lucky enough to find a clinic somewhere. I did Kodi when he was a year old, and he passed. I will have Shelby done at the end of the year, also.


----------



## marjrc

Thanks, Michele. I'll wait for cooler weather, probably this fall, and get the boys tested.


----------



## irnfit

The test is real simple. The hardest part is waiting for their eyes to dilate, 45 mins. They put the drops in, 45 mins to dilate, then 2 seconds for the exam.
$100 please.


----------



## Havtahava

You get cheated Michele. We have to endure the dark, several lenses and various types of lights shown into their eyes and it takes about FOUR minutes. Ha ha!

By the way, if you can find a dog show in the area hosting a clinic, it is usually a lot cheaper. Ours range from $25-35. Our ophthalmologist charges about $125, so I prefer to wait for show clinics.


----------



## JASHavanese

irnfit said:


> The test is real simple. The hardest part is waiting for their eyes to dilate, 45 mins. They put the drops in, 45 mins to dilate, then 2 seconds for the exam.
> $100 please.


Wow I guess we're really lucky here. There's a vet that comes from Houston once a month and the test is around 30.


----------



## Karen

Yes, I paid $88 total for two dogs I just had CERF'ed in Southern California. It's a shame that certain high-price vets aren't giving more of an incentive for CERFing dogs by keeping their prices low!!! I guess they charge more because in that part of the world they can get away with it. They need a little healthy competition in order to bring their prices down......


----------



## JASHavanese

Karen said:


> You are KIND to me, Jan!!!  I try hard to be a good teacher, but there are teachers who I think are so much smarter than me. There is a chemistry teacher at our high school that I am in awe of.....She was my son's chem teacher and she did such a good job teaching him. And guess what? Her daughter's name is Willa, same name that I gave to Inky's puppy (but I'm not going to tell her that).
> 
> Anyway:focus: I would like to post Liz's letter on my website also. If you can put me in touch with her Jan, I would be very appreciative. I do not have her contact info. Thanks!


LOL I think you should tell her Willa's name. I know she isn't named after her but it's still cute. 
I named my standard poodle a friend's name because I liked it and it fit her. I don't think she was thrilled about it though 
Some teachers just stand out Karen and I bet you're one of them. OOOOHHH that reminds me of something that happened in a beauty shop I owned. I was working on a teen and she mentioned what school she went to. One of my other clients who was a teacher was behind a partition getting another service at the same time. The teen mentioned one of her teachers and said what a witch she was and it was my other client who overheard her. To be honest even though the teacher was a friend of mine, I had to agree with the teen as far as her teaching went.
Contact info was sent. Liz did write a really interesting letter. She's probably happy the truth is out there instead of what we were hearing.


----------



## JASHavanese

irnfit said:


> Yes, Jan. Both of my dogs have Destiny in their lines. Yes, I read the letter from Liz on the big list when it was posted.


I think we'd be hard pressed not to find Destiny in our lines. Does anyone know of a hav without it?


----------



## Karen

Hi Jan,

Whoa! I see how these threads work.....they kind of lead from one thing to another, don't they? First, two different breeds, then CERF, now Willa's name, LOL. Ok, I'll bring it :focus:

Yes, Liz Vargo's letter is very informative! I did receive her contact info from you, thanks! I'm working on typing up her letter now and I will email her today. After she gives me permission (I just want to get it personally from her...), then I will put her letter up for view on my website.

Ok, going off-topic again. Have you guys seen the new Havanese Rescue, Inc Video "World?" :drum: Here it is: 



It is VERY touching. Get out the Kleenex and then think about buying tickets to the Havanese Rescue Quilt Auction: http://quilt.havaneserescue.com/drawing.html


----------



## JASHavanese

Karen said:


> Hi Jan,
> 
> Ok, going off-topic again. Have you guys seen the new Havanese Rescue, Inc Video "World?" :drum: Here it is: YouTube - Havanese Rescue Inc. - "World"
> It is VERY touching. Get out the Kleenex and then think about buying tickets to the Havanese Rescue Quilt Auction:


If that video doesn't bring tears to the eyes, I don't know what would. Isn't it a shame that there's even a need for rescue? There's also Art For Rescue. http://www.jashavanese.net./rescue.html Boy did I announce that at a bad time. Who knew this hsd stuff was going to blast onto the scene right after it. uke:


----------



## Karen

Regarding the Destiny lines, I cannot find any Destiny dogs behind my Hav girl, Tasha (Liveoak's Sweet Temptation). Maybe I missed it, but I scanned her 9 generation pedigree on Havanese Gallery and couldn't find any Destiny dogs there. Now, my female Inky (Ch Jolain's Good Vibrations) definitely has Destiny dogs behind her. It's interesting: Inky's grand dam is Joanne Baldwin's foundation bitch Ch Elfin Elite Poppy Seed (Poppy) and Poppy has Destiny dogs directly behind her. (I suppose everyone knows that Joanne is on the HSDAA steering committee.) I am curious if Poppy will be eligible to be registered as a HSDAA foundation dog? It doesn't seem like she would be eligible since the Arizonoa Conundrum theory says that the Destiny dogs were all AZ dogs (which we know isn't true from Liz Vargo's letter). Makes you wonder???:suspicious:


----------



## Havtahava

> I think we'd be hard pressed not to find Destiny in our lines.


I know you know this, but Destiny is just a kennel name. She has had many dogs over the years. Are you saying this in reference to the founding dogs? Or about Destiny Kennels in general?

AM CH Jespersen's Heartland Hidalgo, who is one of the top dogs in the country, has no Destiny in his pedigree.

One of the big names I remember from early pedigrees is Beppe (AM CH Voila Prime Time ROM). He doesn't have any Destiny lines in his pedigree.

I'm pretty sure that Noff Noff (AM CH Voila Clean Sweep ROM) who was an AOM winner at the National last year doesn't either.

Martha's sire doesn't have any Destiny dogs in his pedigree.

There is a cute bitch showing out here Pillowtalk's Heart of My Heart, who has no Destiny in her pedigree. In fact, I don't know if any of the Pillowtalk dogs do, but I haven't looked that closely.

Chi Chi (CH. Kolmar's Charisma) doesn't have any Destiny in her, but all her offspring do, because she was always bred to males that did.

Anyway, I just found those with a quick look through pedigrees. If you look around, you'll find them.


----------



## marjrc

Karen said:


> Ok, going off-topic again. Have you guys seen the new Havanese Rescue, Inc Video "World?" :drum: Here it is: YouTube - Havanese Rescue Inc. - "World"
> It is VERY touching. Get out the Kleenex and then think about buying tickets to the Havanese Rescue Quilt Auction: http://quilt.havaneserescue.com/drawing.html


Karen, if you haven't already, would you mind reposting this in a new thread so it can catch everyone's attention? I'm sure there are many here who would love to support the HRI. You're right..... watching this yest. had me reaching for the kleenex. Very moving and inspirational too. Thanks!


----------



## Havtahava

> Karen, if you haven't already, would you mind reposting this in a new thread so it can catch everyone's attention? I'm sure there are many here who would love to support the HRI.


Marj, GMTA! I was going to ask her the same thing. I think it would get a lot more exposure outside of this thread.


----------



## Karen

Havtahava said:


> Marj, GMTA! I was going to ask her the same thing. I think it would get a lot more exposure outside of this thread.


Yes, that's a great idea! I'll do it now....

Karen


----------



## Amy R.

*New Havanese owner's perspective*

:brick:
Well, I have _finally_ plowed through much of this tortured and contentious thread, and recommend that all those new to the forum and to the breed do so. . .perhaps when they are sick in bed with simply _hours_ to spare, LOL! It is a long and mind-numbing, but absolutely fascinating thread--a must-read. So educational!

My husband and I have spent a lifetime in other areas of collecting and connoisseurship, and I could not help but note the similarities: cliques, schisms, politics, the mine-is-better-than-yours elitism-----this is human nature, I suppose. That is not to say it is all relative, and there is no standard, _au contraire_, but people sometimes lose perspective in this sort of endeavor.

Truly, my hat is off to ALL of you breeders and devotees who have worked so hard and passionately to develop and nurture this amazing and wonderful breed, whichever side of the divide you inhabit. May it all accrue to the breed's advantage in the end. . .and the human differences be resolved. PAX.

As for my darling pup, with perhaps a touch of CD, yesterday he ate the cover off of Diane's book (he has never before eaten any paper, I leave books and mags around all the time) , but I'm not taking that as a political statement! LOL!


----------



## Missy

Amy, that is just too funny! Way to go Biscuit. Also what a very nice way to sum up this thread.


----------



## juliav

Amy R. said:


> :brick:
> 
> As for my darling pup, with perhaps a touch of CD, yesterday he ate the cover off of Diane's book (he has never before eaten any paper, I leave books and mags around all the time) , but I'm not taking that as a political statement! LOL!


ound:

I spit out my coffee when I read your post. I think your puppy is trying to share his point of view on the subject!!! :eyebrows:


----------



## pjewel

Amy R. said:


> :brick:
> 
> As for my darling pup, with perhaps a touch of CD, yesterday he ate the cover off of Diane's book (he has never before eaten any paper, I leave books and mags around all the time) , but I'm not taking that as a political statement! LOL!


Amy,

That was hysterical . . . and it just might be a political statement


----------



## Amy R.

It really was toooo ironic, and so glad it amused you all! :biggrin1:


----------



## JASHavanese

Amy R. said:


> :brick:
> 
> As for my darling pup, with perhaps a touch of CD, yesterday he ate the cover off of Diane's book (he has never before eaten any paper, I leave books and mags around all the time) , but I'm not taking that as a political statement! LOL!


LOL ouch, it burns when coffee comes out your nose! :tea: Now that was cute! ound: :becky:


----------



## Amy R.

Gosh, Jan, sorry to waste a perfectly good cup of Starbuck's finest!


----------



## Honey Poney's

*Laugh*

Ha, ha,

it's good to be able to laugh a bit about all of this.

I just have got one problem now.

Been "off line" a while and it looks as there are almost 3000 new messages since my last visit !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## JASHavanese

Honey Poney's said:


> Ha, ha,
> 
> it's good to be able to laugh a bit about all of this.
> 
> I just have got one problem now.
> 
> Been "off line" a while and it looks as there are almost 3000 new messages since my last visit !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


How do you find out how many new posts there are? I'm STILL trying to figure out how to use the forum. :lalala:


----------



## Havanasilks

Kimberly wrote:


> One of the big names I remember from early pedigrees is Beppe (AM CH Voila Prime Time ROM). He doesn't have any Destiny lines in his pedigree.


Hey Kimberly...
Beppe is only 12. There is a litter being planned. (Really) Wanna a Beppe pup?.....lol!
Hugs,
Robin


----------



## Havtahava

Yeah, yeah, yeah - you just had to go and bump this thread, didn't ya? 

And hey, 12 years old is an early pedigree when you can make six generations in that time! LOL


----------



## hyenna

This is the firtt I am reading about this situation and am totally confused....Helene


----------



## hyenna

Smarty...Hi, could you explain or tell me what thread to go to or web to understand what the difference is between the Havana Silk and reg Hav? My Lizzy has more of a maltese hair than a curly wirey hair....I have see so many Haves and they all have maybe a different look or their hair is wirey or curly or straight..


----------



## Piper’s mom

Honey Poney's said:


> Can I please give a personnel oppinion without being killed for it.
> 
> Not really a personnel opinion but the opinion of a lot of European breeders.
> 
> The HSD looks more like a small Tibettan Terrier.
> 
> Sorry if I offended somebody.


I agree. They look very much like a Tibetan Terrier.

[Moderator EDIT] This thread is 13 years old. Please start a new thread.


----------

