# Vaccinations



## cinquecento (Apr 23, 2020)

How do your Havanese babies do with their vaccinations? We went to the vet today for her second round of shots and she did not do well. She slept all day and wouldn't drink or potty. She was in so much pain! She was yelping and howling every time she was touched or tried to move. It sounded more like screaming. We had to take her back to the vet late this afternoon. The doctor gave her Meloxicam. No fever and she doesn't seem allergic. She is still sleeping tonight, but she did wake up long enough to eat, drink a little water, and go outside, and she didn't scream when she moved. The Meloxicam seems to be helping. She was on the couch with me until this evening. Now she is crashed in the middle of her toys. We have to do this again in 4 weeks and then again 4 weeks after that. I hope this doesn't happen every time. Any advice or thoughts are greatly appreciated.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I hope you know about the minimal vaccination protocol advised for Havanese by most breeders. It can be found on Dr. jean Dodds website. Havanese are a vaccine sensitive breed, and it’s TEALLY important not to over-vaccinate and not to give them too many vaccines at the same time. If tou have one that is reacting so negatively at this age, you need to be especially careful.

My girls both got only two puppy vaccinations for distemper and parvo, and after that, with the agreement of my ver, we titered them. Both had good protective titers, and at 4 and 5 years of age, those titers are still holding just fine. 

Now, I believe that since then, the recommendations have changed because of a more virulent strain of parvo, and that Dr. dodds (and Dr. Schultz, the other vet who is tops in the world of immunology) are now both recommending a third dose of parvo ONLY.

Lepto and Lyme are generally NOT recommended for most Havanese, nor is Bordetella, though this can differ depending on individual circumstances. But all of this should be discussed in detail with your vet, both in light of the fact that the breed is known to be vaccine sensitive and also considering your puppy’s rather significant reaction to vaccinations so far.

I also give my dogs Thuja, which is a homeopathic, with any vaccination. Lots of people don’t believe in homeopathy. I don’t honestly know whether it helps or not. I DO know it can’t hurt them, and my vet’s office recommends it for all their clients, so I figure if there is a chance it might help, I give it! (The homeopathic for Rabies vaccine is Lyssinum)


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

If rabies vaccines is required, I think it is critical to give that separately to determine if a reaction occurs. Otherwise, you will not know which vaccine caused the reaction. Since the rabies vaccine is legally required in many areas, it is harder to avoid so it is good to know if your dog has a bad reaction to it. Also, it is good to do the 3 year vs 1 year rabies vaccine if you have to give it.


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## stephsu (Apr 27, 2020)

Aw, I'm sorry she had a tough time with the vaccines. Which ones did she get? Hopefully, she'll continue to feel better today. I know that the breeder we are using recommends Dr. Dodds protocol as Karen mentioned above.

I am already looking to figure out how to get all of the vaccines in. I live in NY where Rabies is required by no later than 4 months after birth. Dr. Dodds says give Rabies 3-4 weeks apart from other vaccines. If they get Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV at 9 – 10 weeks of age, Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV again at 14 – 15 weeks of age, and Parvovirus only, MLV at 18 weeks, when do you all suggest to do Rabies? I would only have 2 weeks on either end if I did the 2nd round at 14 weeks, Rabies at 16 weeks and the last Parvo at 18 weeks. Guessing that's the way to do it.

Karen, I'd love to know home about the homeopathic remedies you mentioned. Does your vet supply them or do you buy them and give it before/after the vaccine? Is there a recommended dose? I'd love to ask the vet about this. My kids and I take homeopathic remedies so I am interested in learning more about that. Thanks!


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## cinquecento (Apr 23, 2020)

*Harley Update*

Thanks so much to all of you that responded with insight and advise! I SO appreciate it. I was so worried about her yesterday. She is MUCH better today! For those that asked, she got the distemper/parvo/adnovirus... all-in-one vaccination - it was her 2nd one, the breeder gave the first before we picked her up.

I need to call the breeder to see how she did when she vaccinated her the first time. I will definitely take the information you all have shared to my vet and have a conversation with them prior about vaccinations and Dr. Dodds protocol. It looks like in 12/2019 the vet schools in the U.S. adopted that protocol. Impressive! Her next distemper/parvo/adnovirus combo vaccination is supposed to be in 4 weeks. She is scheduled to get her rabies in 8 weeks, so it will be a single shot with no other vaccinations.

She has eaten today and drank, and she played with me for a while. Still sleepy, but so much better! I'm starting to see her spark return!


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## Jimmysmother (Nov 29, 2019)

One of my havanese puppies had the same reaction to her vaccines. She received all vaccines from the same vet. My other havanese puppy had no reactions to this same vaccine protocol.

*2016 Dodds Vaccination Protocol for Dogs*

9 - 10 weeks of age Distemper + Parvovirus
Merck Nobivac (Intervet Progard) Puppy DPV
My puppy got shot @ 9 weeks, had no reaction
this is a thimerosal free, PUPPY dose

14 - 15 weeks of age Distemper + Parvovirus
MLV Merck Nobivac (Intervet Progard) Puppy DPV
My puppy got shot @ 14 weeks of age.
3 hours after shot, my puppy went from playful to panting with what seemed to be significant spinal pain, so I took her to the Vet ER and they gave pain medicine. She didn't want touched, much less picked up for 3 days. 
She was totally fine 3 days after getting this vaccine.

18 weeks of age Parvovirus only, MLV
Dodds says: New research states that last puppy parvovirus vaccine should be at 18 weeks old.
My puppy got shot @ 18 weeks of age
3 hours after shot, my puppy again went from playful to panting with what once again seemed to be significant spinal pain. 
Vet had told me ahead of time to, like last time, give prescription pain medicine and rest.

20 weeks or older, if allowable by law Rabies 
give 3-4 weeks apart from other vaccines
my puppy got shot at 21 weeks of age and had ZERO trouble
my state does not give medical exemptions for rabies
-lyssin 
don't touch with skin, hold vial upside to get oral pellet
day before 2x/day
2 minutes before vaccine
when get home from vaccine
2/3 times/day for 2-3 days 
Thuja
6 hours before: 1/4 of 25mg benadryl
iv steroid dexamethathon
30 minutes before: pet gave

Distempter Parvo Merck Nobivac (Intervet Progard) Puppy DPV
This is an optional booster or titer. If the client intends not to booster after this optional booster or intends to retest titers in another three years, this optional booster at puberty is wise.
I will titer instead of giving booster

-------------------

None of the vets or pet stores in my area had the below vaccines. So I bought them from www.revivalanimalhealth.com

1) Syringes 
3cc MonoJect with 22 gauge Needles - 3cc, Luer Lock, 22g x ¾", 25 ct
item #30983-1242 
$6.25

2) Parvo Only 
NeoPar Single Dose 
#30401-306 
$4.49

3) Distemper and Parvo 
25 doses (vets and revival.com said manufacturer had been out of single dose vials for along time)
Nobivac Puppy-DPv (Progard Puppy-DPv) 
#30350-415 
$104.99

4) Shipping Box 
Polar Box with Extra Ice (Auto Add for Cold Items) $5.00

Subtotal: $120.73
Promo: $-10.00
TOTAL $ 110.73


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## Vartina Ancrum (Oct 10, 2019)

I am glad your little sweetie is feeling better.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

stephsu said:


> Aw, I'm sorry she had a tough time with the vaccines. Which ones did she get? Hopefully, she'll continue to feel better today. I know that the breeder we are using recommends Dr. Dodds protocol as Karen mentioned above.
> 
> I am already looking to figure out how to get all of the vaccines in. I live in NY where Rabies is required by no later than 4 months after birth. Dr. Dodds says give Rabies 3-4 weeks apart from other vaccines. If they get Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV at 9 - 10 weeks of age, Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV again at 14 - 15 weeks of age, and Parvovirus only, MLV at 18 weeks, when do you all suggest to do Rabies? I would only have 2 weeks on either end if I did the 2nd round at 14 weeks, Rabies at 16 weeks and the last Parvo at 18 weeks. Guessing that's the way to do it.
> 
> Karen, I'd love to know home about the homeopathic remedies you mentioned. Does your vet supply them or do you buy them and give it before/after the vaccine? Is there a recommended dose? I'd love to ask the vet about this. My kids and I take homeopathic remedies so I am interested in learning more about that. Thanks!


My vet supplies them. But you can get Thuja at Whole Foods, so that one is easy. Lysinnum is only for animals, so you need to get it on line. The dose is the same for both. 3 pellets in their drinking water daily, the day of and three days after, if there is no reaction. If they have a reaction, you continue for one week after the reaction subsides.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

So glad to hear Harley is feeling better. I really don't like this topic. We have talked with our vet and take her advice (regular vaccinations), and I'm always nervous Shama will have a reaction even though she hasn't thus far ...


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

ShamaMama said:


> So glad to hear Harley is feeling better. I really don't like this topic. We have talked with our vet and take her advice (regular vaccinations), and I'm always nervous Shama will have a reaction even though she hasn't thus far ...


When you say regular, do you mean every 3 years? What does the vet say when you ask about titers? I know many vets do not mention titers unless you ask about them. If Shama has kidney disease, I would think it is even more critical to avoid unnecessary vaccinations. Just wondering if the vet said anything about that.


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## cinquecento (Apr 23, 2020)

Harley update: Thankfully she seems like her normal self, and seems to have recovered from her vaccinations. I’m so relieved. We are searching for a new vet in our area. The one we took her to came highly recommended by many people, and the office seemed very busy the two times we took her in, but I requested her records to see exactly what they gave her and it was not the vaccine we had agreed on. It was a multi-vaccine, which included lepto, that should not have been given to a young puppy, especially one her size. My breeder was so angry a vet would give her that. I was so sad it happened and angry that the vet either didn’t listen to what we had talked about, listened, but just gave what they had on hand at the time, or just made a mistake. I am just so thankful and relieved that she bounced back and seems fine now.

Suggestions on what to look for in a vet? I thought glowing recommendations and the vet’s assurance that they worked with clients/patients to tailor vaccinations to fit the needs of the pet were good indicators, but..., I guess not. Thank you all for the advice about vaccinations. I am reading up on Dr. Jean Dodds protocol.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

cinquecento said:


> Harley update: Thankfully she seems like her normal self, and seems to have recovered from her vaccinations. I'm so relieved. We are searching for a new vet in our area. The one we took her to came highly recommended by many people, and the office seemed very busy the two times we took her in, but I requested her records to see exactly what they gave her and it was not the vaccine we had agreed on. It was a multi-vaccine, which included lepto, that should not have been given to a young puppy, especially one her size. My breeder was so angry a vet would give her that. I was so sad it happened and angry that the vet either didn't listen to what we had talked about, listened, but just gave what they had on hand at the time, or just made a mistake. I am just so thankful and relieved that she bounced back and seems fine now.
> 
> Suggestions on what to look for in a vet? I thought glowing recommendations and the vet's assurance that they worked with clients/patients to tailor vaccinations to fit the needs of the pet were good indicators, but..., I guess not. Thank you all for the advice about vaccinations. I am reading up on Dr. Jean Dodds protocol.


Wow...sounds like you did all you could to find a vet that respected your wishes. Did you ask the vet why this was done? This happened to a friend of mine. She had requested absolutely no lepto vaccine and the vet did it anyway. When she asked the vet he said he did it to protect his staff since lepto is transmissible to humans. However, to do this without first telling the client is unethical. It is sad to say but as hard as you try to find a good vet sometimes you don't find out what they are really like until you use them. I am on my fourth vet who is very good but had some issues with the others.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

mudpuppymama said:


> When you say regular, do you mean every 3 years? What does the vet say when you ask about titers? I know many vets do not mention titers unless you ask about them. If Shama has kidney disease, I would think it is even more critical to avoid unnecessary vaccinations. Just wondering if the vet said anything about that.


I mean as often as they tell us she needs a vaccination. I think as an adult she's been having annual bordetella shots, and I know the last time it was time for her lepto shot, the vet (not our regular vet, but one of her business partners) convinced us she needed it. If she's never reacted to a shot, does that mean she never will react, or is she at risk each time?

Good point about the kidney disease complicating things. I just sent an email to our vet asking if she's heard when we might finally get to see a kidney doctor at the U of MN and asking if we can titer to avoid other vaccinations. Is there a titer for bordetella?

Thanks for all your help with people's health questions, mudpuppymama!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

ShamaMama said:


> I mean as often as they tell us she needs a vaccination. I think as an adult she's been having annual bordetella shots, and I know the last time it was time for her lepto shot, the vet (not our regular vet, but one of her business partners) convinced us she needed it. If she's never reacted to a shot, does that mean she never will react, or is she at risk each time?
> 
> Good point about the kidney disease complicating things. I just sent an email to our vet asking if she's heard when we might finally get to see a kidney doctor at the U of MN and asking if we can titer to avoid other vaccinations. Is there a titer for bordetella?
> 
> Thanks for all your help with people's health questions, mudpuppymama!


I believe that the vaccines for bordatella and lepto only provide short term immunity, therefore titers for these would not make sense. However, I was wondering if the vet believes in titers for others such as parvo and distemper. With regard to reactions, I do not think there are any guarantees for the first or subsequent vaccinations. However, my understanding is that every time you vaccinate for something they are already immune to you increase the chances of your dog developing autoimmune issues. Since the dog is already immune, the immune system does not know how to respond and instead turns upon itself. For example, hypothyroidism could be a result. In this case the dog's own immune system destroys its own thyroid. The results may not be immediate and may simply be your dog develops allergies. Some vets believe that dogs with liver or kidney problems or other health issues should not be vaccinated. Here is an article that talks about this.

https://animalwellnessmagazine.com/yearly-vaccines-unnecessary/

Everyone has their opinions on this subject, however I thought most vets will agree to do titers if the client asks to avoid vaccinating a dog that is already immune. Since the dog is already immune, there would be no point in revaccination and all it would do is raise the risk of vaccinosis. I think it is like playing Russian roulette. As far as bordatella and lepto, they do not make sense to me. Bordatella is not life threatening. There are many strains of lepto and not all are covered by the vaccine. Both of these only provide short term immunity too. I do not think they are worth the risk but everyone needs to make that decision for themself.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

*vaccines*



krandall said:


> I hope you know about the minimal vaccination protocol advised for Havanese by most breeders. It can be found on Dr. jean Dodds website. Havanese are a vaccine sensitive breed, and it's TEALLY important not to over-vaccinate and not to give them too many vaccines at the same time. If tou have one that is reacting so negatively at this age, you need to be especially careful.
> 
> My girls both got only two puppy vaccinations for distemper and parvo, and after that, with the agreement of my ver, we titered them. Both had good protective titers, and at 4 and 5 years of age, those titers are still holding just fine.
> 
> ...


Vaccines are such a hard topic because everyone's comfort level and circumstances are different. I know that I would be titering Perry as much as possible if we were staying in one place (one country) but because of our travel AND requirements in different countries we had to get ones that I wouldn't normally do (including rabies annually instead of every 3 years and DHLPP). Thankfully he's been fine with all of them so far - but I do make sure that he doesn't get the rabies and DHLPP on the same day - they get spaced out by a couple of weeks.

I did recently get Perry's rabies titer done (waiting for the results as they had to be sent from Kampala to a lab in Germany because we want them valid for travel to countries that require both the vaccine AND a valid titer because they're rabies free) so will be curious as to where his levels are when we get it back.

On another (but related because it was the initial reason for the titer) bit of news - Karen - you won't be visiting us in PNG - didn't get the job  though good for travel issues, don't have to travel to figure out how to get Perry there (at this moment at least). Currently contemplating going and spending 3 months in the Caribbean instead (where we will still need the titer but is easier to take Perry).


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> Vaccines are such a hard topic because everyone's comfort level and circumstances are different. I know that I would be titering Perry as much as possible if we were staying in one place (one country) but because of our travel AND requirements in different countries we had to get ones that I wouldn't normally do (including rabies annually instead of every 3 years and DHLPP). Thankfully he's been fine with all of them so far - but I do make sure that he doesn't get the rabies and DHLPP on the same day - they get spaced out by a couple of weeks.
> 
> I did recently get Perry's rabies titer done (waiting for the results as they had to be sent from Kampala to a lab in Germany because we want them valid for travel to countries that require both the vaccine AND a valid titer because they're rabies free) so will be curious as to where his levels are when we get it back.
> 
> On another (but related because it was the initial reason for the titer) bit of news - Karen - you won't be visiting us in PNG - didn't get the job  though good for travel issues, don't have to travel to figure out how to get Perry there (at this moment at least). Currently contemplating going and spending 3 months in the Caribbean instead (where we will still need the titer but is easier to take Perry).


Yes, I think I said in one of my responses that differing circumstances will also have a beating on decisions on vaccinations... and I was specifically thinking of you! Sometimes you've got to do what you've got to do. The same with those people who live in states that insist on Rabies for 4 month old puppies... it makes me cringe, but if that is the law... you don't have much choice because the vets are MANDATED. They can't treat your puppy without Rabies vaccination.

Aww, gee, I was looking forward to my visit to NG! Oh well! The Carribean is nice too, and if it makes it easier to get there with Perry, so much the better. It will also make it a LOT eaier to visit your friends and family back home when we finally get past this horrible disease!!!


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Update: the vet said we can do titers, and the U of MN called to say we're on the waiting list and should get our appointment in late July or sometime in August. Yay!


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## stephsu (Apr 27, 2020)

krandall said:


> Yes, I think I said in one of my responses that differing circumstances will also have a beating on decisions on vaccinations... and I was specifically thinking of you! Sometimes you've got to do what you've got to do. The same with those people who live in states that insist on Rabies for 4 month old puppies... it makes me cringe, but if that is the law... you don't have much choice because the vets are MANDATED. They can't treat your puppy without Rabies vaccination.
> 
> Aww, gee, I was looking forward to my visit to NG! Oh well! The Carribean is nice too, and if it makes it easier to get there with Perry, so much the better. It will also make it a LOT eaier to visit your friends and family back home when we finally get past this horrible disease!!!


I live in NY and Rabies is required by 4 months. I spoke to a breeder a week ago who said, "just don't give it. Don't bring the puppy to the vet and then they can't give it." That was the end of that conversation. As much as I'd rather wait, I can't in good conscious just not give a shot that is required by the state!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

*Vaccines*



cinquecento said:


> Harley update: Thankfully she seems like her normal self, and seems to have recovered from her vaccinations. I'm so relieved. We are searching for a new vet in our area. The one we took her to came highly recommended by many people, and the office seemed very busy the two times we took her in, but I requested her records to see exactly what they gave her and it was not the vaccine we had agreed on. It was a multi-vaccine, which included lepto, that should not have been given to a young puppy, especially one her size. My breeder was so angry a vet would give her that. I was so sad it happened and angry that the vet either didn't listen to what we had talked about, listened, but just gave what they had on hand at the time, or just made a mistake. I am just so thankful and relieved that she bounced back and seems fine now.
> 
> Suggestions on what to look for in a vet? I thought glowing recommendations and the vet's assurance that they worked with clients/patients to tailor vaccinations to fit the needs of the pet were good indicators, but..., I guess not. Thank you all for the advice about vaccinations. I am reading up on Dr. Jean Dodds protocol.


I had something similar happen (wrong vaccine given) by a vet here in Kampala. We were traveling back to the US (as we usually do twice a year) but were planning on a few days in DC - and wanted to put Perry in puppy day care rather than him being stuck in his crate in a hotel for 3-4 days... and daycares in the US generally require bordatella. It's not a common vaccine here and so our normal vet didn't have it, so I had to check around and found one who said they had it. They came (housecalls are common here) and we discussed and then they gave Perry the jab. However, I realized when they were writing it into his vaccine passport that they were filling it out as if it were DHLPP. I looked at the bottle and yep, it was the DHLPP! I was sooooo angry. When I confronted the vet about it and the fact that we were specifically talking about bordatella, he said that they "did the same thing"! No, they don't. and even if they did, Perry had already gotten his DHLPP for the year! So, not only did we not get the bordatella, but he also ended up with 2 DHLPPs in the same year (and then I still have to continue doing it annually because it's a legal requirement here). Talk about over-vaccination.

So far, no issues - but as soon as we can go back to a 3 year rabies and titer for everything else we definitely will be doing that (all dependent on where we're living next)!

Oh - and on the bordatella - he eventually had the vaccine and went to puppy daycare BUT still got kennel cough anyway! (the point many people make about there being many strains and the vaccine not covering them all).


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

ShamaMama said:


> Update: the vet said we can do titers, and the U of MN called to say we're on the waiting list and should get our appointment in late July or sometime in August. Yay!


That is wonderful!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Melissa Brill said:


> I had something similar happen (wrong vaccine given) by a vet here in Kampala. We were traveling back to the US (as we usually do twice a year) but were planning on a few days in DC - and wanted to put Perry in puppy day care rather than him being stuck in his crate in a hotel for 3-4 days... and daycares in the US generally require bordatella. It's not a common vaccine here and so our normal vet didn't have it, so I had to check around and found one who said they had it. They came (housecalls are common here) and we discussed and then they gave Perry the jab. However, I realized when they were writing it into his vaccine passport that they were filling it out as if it were DHLPP. I looked at the bottle and yep, it was the DHLPP! I was sooooo angry. When I confronted the vet about it and the fact that we were specifically talking about bordatella, he said that they "did the same thing"! No, they don't. and even if they did, Perry had already gotten his DHLPP for the year! So, not only did we not get the bordatella, but he also ended up with 2 DHLPPs in the same year (and then I still have to continue doing it annually because it's a legal requirement here). Talk about over-vaccination.
> 
> So far, no issues - but as soon as we can go back to a 3 year rabies and titer for everything else we definitely will be doing that (all dependent on where we're living next)!
> 
> Oh - and on the bordatella - he eventually had the vaccine and went to puppy daycare BUT still got kennel cough anyway! (the point many people make about there being many strains and the vaccine not covering them all).


My neighbor had to board her two poodles so she did the bordatella shot. Both of them got sick anyway! I have a friend who is searching for a groomer who does not require it and not having any luck. I wonder if this is something all groomers require everywhere. If so, good reason to groom our own dogs.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ShamaMama said:


> Update: the vet said we can do titers, and the U of MN called to say we're on the waiting list and should get our appointment in late July or sometime in August. Yay!


Yay!!! Great news on both fronts!!! Sounds like a very reasonable vet!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

stephsu said:


> I live in NY and Rabies is required by 4 months. I spoke to a breeder a week ago who said, "just don't give it. Don't bring the puppy to the vet and then they can't give it." That was the end of that conversation. As much as I'd rather wait, I can't in good conscious just not give a shot that is required by the state!


It's a tough call. I feel your dilemma


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> I had something similar happen (wrong vaccine given) by a vet here in Kampala. We were traveling back to the US (as we usually do twice a year) but were planning on a few days in DC - and wanted to put Perry in puppy day care rather than him being stuck in his crate in a hotel for 3-4 days... and daycares in the US generally require bordatella. It's not a common vaccine here and so our normal vet didn't have it, so I had to check around and found one who said they had it. They came (housecalls are common here) and we discussed and then they gave Perry the jab. However, I realized when they were writing it into his vaccine passport that they were filling it out as if it were DHLPP. I looked at the bottle and yep, it was the DHLPP! I was sooooo angry. When I confronted the vet about it and the fact that we were specifically talking about bordatella, he said that they "did the same thing"! No, they don't. and even if they did, Perry had already gotten his DHLPP for the year! So, not only did we not get the bordatella, but he also ended up with 2 DHLPPs in the same year (and then I still have to continue doing it annually because it's a legal requirement here). Talk about over-vaccination.
> 
> So far, no issues - but as soon as we can go back to a 3 year rabies and titer for everything else we definitely will be doing that (all dependent on where we're living next)!
> 
> Oh - and on the bordatella - he eventually had the vaccine and went to puppy daycare BUT still got kennel cough anyway! (the point many people make about there being many strains and the vaccine not covering them all).


Which almost makes you wish, in a case like yours, that maybe you were LESS educated? LOL!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

*bordatella*



mudpuppymama said:


> My neighbor had to board her two poodles so she did the bordatella shot. Both of them got sick anyway! I have a friend who is searching for a groomer who does not require it and not having any luck. I wonder if this is something all groomers require everywhere. If so, good reason to groom our own dogs.


My US groomer (in NE PA) doesn't require it - so we've only been asked for doggie daycare...


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

*too educated*



krandall said:


> Which almost makes you wish, in a case like yours, that maybe you were LESS educated? LOL!


Oh definitely - the amount of stress and freak-out (on my side) from the over-vaccination levels that poor Perry has does make me wish I didn't understand it so well


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

Goodness what an ordeal! Great advice from other posts. So happy your baby is well💖


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## cinquecento (Apr 23, 2020)

Another Harley update: Thank you to all for commenting and sharing information on this post! I have found it so informative!! What a wealth of information. I especially appreciate those of you that warned me of how hard the lentivirus vaccination can be on some puppies. Harley had her vaccination last week, with a new vet. The vet was awesome and we had a good conversation about vaccinations. Of course, she strongly recommended, more than once during our conversation, that leptovirus should be given due to high risk for getting the disease. In the end she did agree not to give it and I agreed to reconsider it at a later date when Harley was older. 

I am so happy to report that this round of vaccinations was so different than the first. She may have been a little sleepier, but she played, she ate, and she was not in severe, screaming pain. It was a normal response with no worry at all. Thank you all for your support and comfort during that first vaccine and for all the information and advice! It made a huge different with our next vaccination experience. Harley thanks you too! 😄 

A couple of more recent photos. She likes to sleep on her back with her feet all stretched out.


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

What a precious cutie! I’m glad he’s doing better this time and happy😊


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

cinquecento said:


> Another Harley update: Thank you to all for commenting and sharing information on this post! I have found it so informative!! What a wealth of information. I especially appreciate those of you that warned me of how hard the lentivirus vaccination can be on some puppies. Harley had her vaccination last week, with a new vet. The vet was awesome and we had a good conversation about vaccinations. Of course, she strongly recommended, more than once during our conversation, that leptovirus should be given due to high risk for getting the disease. In the end she did agree not to give it and I agreed to reconsider it at a later date when Harley was older.
> 
> I am so happy to report that this round of vaccinations was so different than the first. She may have been a little sleepier, but she played, she ate, and she was not in severe, screaming pain. It was a normal response with no worry at all. Thank you all for your support and comfort during that first vaccine and for all the information and advice! It made a huge different with our next vaccination experience. Harley thanks you too! &#128516;
> 
> A couple of more recent photos. She likes to sleep on her back with her feet all stretched out.


Glad Harley is doing well. Good for you for sticking to what you believe is right for Harley regarding the lepto vaccine. Some vets seem to really be pushing the lepto vaccine these days. They may be doing this to cover themselves so clients don't complain they weren't "informed" if their dog does get lepto. IMO, if you keep your dog from drinking standing water the risk is low. And the vaccine is not long lasting anyway and only covers a few strains. So I am not really getting why they are pushing this.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> Glad Harley is doing well. Good for you for sticking to what you believe is right for Harley regarding the lepto vaccine. Some vets seem to really be pushing the lepto vaccine these days. They may be doing this to cover themselves so clients don't complain they weren't "informed" if their dog does get lepto. IMO, if you keep your dog from drinking standing water the risk is low. And the vaccine is not long lasting anyway and only covers a few strains. So I am not really getting why they are pushing this.


I think they push it because Lepto IS so deadly if it is not caught in early stages, and many people are VERY cavalier about letting their dogs drink out of puddles, and often take a "wait and see" attitude if their dog appears sick. Lepto is absolutely curable IF it is caught early. But leads to organ destruction if people let it go too long before seeking medical help.

I also think that vets just are not aware of the chemical sensitivities of Havanese. Many other breeds, especially the bigger sporting dogs most likely to be wallowing in swamps and drinking nasty water) don't often have any trouble with the vaccine. So I understand WHY some vets push it... especially if they have watched dogs struggle and die from it. But that does NOT mean that we should not advocate for avoiding it for our carefully monitored toy-size, chemically sensitive "house dogs".


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

Ours didn’t push lepto. Actually he doesn’t usually give it due to the potential risks and because he says it’s not common here. I was discussing heart worm preventative and he said it probably wasn’t necessary if they were indoors and we didn’t take them near the river. We do! But even with that, he’s not pushing taking them year round. I like him because he has a balanced attitude about everything but neuter and spay, which he’s always suggesting we do too early. But he’s laid back and not pushy about what owners want to do with their pets. 

One thing that I had quick reaction to was our two parvo scares (one after Oliver was fully vaccinated) and he was SO worried in a way he never is. I know parvo is so deadly but what I ended up finding out is that we have had MASSIVE outbreaks in my area. 12 puppies from a pet store (puppy mill, horrendous) and many more coming into the shelters. I am socializing Roxie more cautiously w regard to letting her play. Even the trainer is teaching me to socialize and experience 115 things in 16 weeks while not to letting her play at public parks! With Oliver I was cautious about really obviously dirty areas. I had no idea how prevalent parvo was here.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Woods said:


> One thing that I had quick reaction to was our two parvo scares (one after Oliver was fully vaccinated) and he was SO worried in a way he never is. I know parvo is so deadly but what I ended up finding out is that we have had MASSIVE outbreaks in my area. 12 puppies from a pet store (puppy mill, horrendous) and many more coming into the shelters. I am socializing Roxie more cautiously w regard to letting her play. Even the trainer is teaching me to socialize and experience 115 things in 16 weeks while not to letting her play at public parks! With Oliver I was cautious about really obviously dirty areas. I had no idea how prevalent parvo was here.


Yes, Parvo, especially with puppies, is something that needs to be taken VERY seriously. And you rally just need to know what's going on in your area. Just AFTER Panda got past puppy vaccination. age, the most recent, more virulent form of Parvo started going around, and Dr. Dodds and Dr. Schultz BOTH went to recommending the third inoculation for Parvo, while still sticking with just two for distemper. I felt better when we titered her at a year, and found that her Parvo titer was good and high.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Melissa Woods said:


> Ours didn't push lepto. Actually he doesn't usually give it due to the potential risks and because he says it's not common here. I was discussing heart worm preventative and he said it probably wasn't necessary if they were indoors and we didn't take them near the river. We do! But even with that, he's not pushing taking them year round. I like him because he has a balanced attitude about everything but neuter and spay, which he's always suggesting we do too early. But he's laid back and not pushy about what owners want to do with their pets.
> 
> One thing that I had quick reaction to was our two parvo scares (one after Oliver was fully vaccinated) and he was SO worried in a way he never is. I know parvo is so deadly but what I ended up finding out is that we have had MASSIVE outbreaks in my area. 12 puppies from a pet store (puppy mill, horrendous) and many more coming into the shelters. I am socializing Roxie more cautiously w regard to letting her play. Even the trainer is teaching me to socialize and experience 115 things in 16 weeks while not to letting her play at public parks! With Oliver I was cautious about really obviously dirty areas. I had no idea how prevalent parvo was here.


There was an outbreak in our area when our puppy was sick, and then his lab test results were really weird. He ended up being fine, but I was so paranoid!

We are in a similar climate but live right next to the lake. Our vet is also really laid back, but they were seeing a lot of heartworm cases in the two neighborhoods next to the lake so he was strongly recommending Heartguard to those communities. When I finally made the connection between the Heartguard and our puppy's bouts of diarrhea, he recommended blood tests instead.

With lepto he was really neutral and explained the benefits and risks but I don't think he knew Havanese are more sensitive. I don't think it would have mattered anyway because I was really inexperienced and wanted to make sure he was safe, and I didnt really understand the severity of those risks, so I did it the first time. I'm glad he was okay, but don't plan to do it again. it's uncommon here and we monitor him outside.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> There was an outbreak in our area when our puppy was sick, and then his lab test results were really weird. He ended up being fine, but I was so paranoid!
> 
> We are in a similar climate but live right next to the lake. Our vet is also really laid back, but they were seeing a lot of heartworm cases in the two neighborhoods next to the lake so he was strongly recommending Heartguard to those communities. When I finally made the connection between the Heartguard and our puppy's bouts of diarrhea, he recommended blood tests instead.
> 
> With lepto he was really neutral and explained the benefits and risks but I don't think he knew Havanese are more sensitive. I don't think it would have mattered anyway because I was really inexperienced and wanted to make sure he was safe, and I didnt really understand the severity of those risks, so I did it the first time. I'm glad he was okay, but don't plan to do it again. it's uncommon here and we monitor him outside.


I think MOST Havanese ARE "OK anyway". But then you get one that isn't, like Kodi, and it's too late to go back and have a do-over. And like, you, when I got him, he was my first dog, and I just didn't know any better. I stopped over-vaccinating him pretty soon, but the damage, for him, was already done. We manage, but "If I had known then, what I know now..."  Let's just say it has made me MUCH more cautious with the girls.


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## Melissa Woods (Feb 21, 2019)

Our breeder specifically said she didn't recommend it, and I expected more resistance from the vet but he actually confirmed what she'd said (not that I don't trust her but I was happy to receive the same advice from two sources). I think vaccines are absolutely necessary and life-saving when possible and not over-vaccinated. I do know now that there is a big difference for human vaccines, which are strictly tested and I follow CDC recommendations. But with animals, over vaccinating just to "make sure" really has been a thing. We do the boosters every 3 years here, vs yearly. I am undecided whether to just do the vaccines every three years (after the 1 yr boosters) or titer everything but the rabies. However, they very quickly isolated us with Oliver last year, at 9 months old with diarrhea, till he "passed" the Parvo test. He'd HAD all three shots. I have to do more research. I have 2.5 yrs to decide. For now, I do the core vaccines and heart worm preventative half the yr. And a flea and tick topical for three months because we hike in high tick country.


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