# The Power of Choice



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

This is SUCH an important video for people to watch. Even though most of the video uses (captive)wild animal subjects, the principles are EXACTLY the same when working with your dog!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

great stuff Karen, thanks. Trust and respect are much in the same boat and it is imperative to protect our dogs trust. I don't like the words command or obedience when it comes to dog training. Obedience means "submissive to one's will", and command has negative implications as well. These words do not give the animal a choice like this great article talks about. Choice is indeed critical and it builds trust. I think the terms trust and choice are reciprocal. I like this quote from Dr. Roger Abrantes ... "Going hand in hand — or perhaps I should say whip in hand — with the term command is the term obey. Those who do not follow commands are, by implication, disobedient, and therefore deserving of punishment. Commanding is very different from signaling your dog to produce a behavior you desire. In the latter case, if the communication is unsuccessful, it’s not your dog’s fault but yours."

If there's no CHOICE for your dog it becomes a command.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> great stuff Karen, thanks. Trust and respect are much in the same boat and it is imperative to protect our dogs trust. I don't like the words command or obedience when it comes to dog training. Obedience means "submissive to one's will", and command has negative implications as well. These words do not give the animal a choice like this great article talks about. Choice is indeed critical and it builds trust. I think the terms trust and choice are reciprocal. I like this quote from Dr. Roger Abrantes ... "Going hand in hand - or perhaps I should say whip in hand - with the term command is the term obey. Those who do not follow commands are, by implication, disobedient, and therefore deserving of punishment. Commanding is very different from signaling your dog to produce a behavior you desire. In the latter case, if the communication is unsuccessful, it's not your dog's fault but yours."
> 
> If there's no CHOICE for your dog it becomes a command.


Unfortunately, we can't get away from the word "obedience" in the performance world, because it is built into the name of the sport. But I agree, I certainly don't like to emphasize it, not do I use the word "command". I like "cue" instead. Again, because in formal, competitive obedience, "signal" means something very specific... a non-verbal cue.

The trainers I work with are both very much of this mindset. They are quick to correct anyone who says their dog "won't" do something. If a dog isn't performing as expected, even on a well established task, It's not that they "won't" but that they CAN'T, under those specific circumstances at that specific time. It's our job to figure out WHY they can't and help them through it.

As our APDT judges always remind us, the DOG didn't make the entry. It's our RESPONSIBILITY FIRST to make sure the dog has fun. (most of the AKC judges are too serious to say something like that )


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

I hear ya Karen, dog trainers and such have and always will struggle with terminology. lol


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Here's another video a friend posted today which goes REALLY well with the idea of giving the dog a choice.






Of course, our Havs are a friendly, contact-loving breed IN GENERAL, but not all dHavs love being patted, and probably FEW of them want it all the time. Kodi is VERY clear when he wants more... If he's laying on or against you, and you STOP stroking him, he looks right in your face, with a vey hurt expression, and starts whining until you begin stroking again!:biggrin1:

Hope some other people besides you and me are watching these, Dave... Otherwise I'm preaching to the choir!ound:


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yep another good video. This really comes into play when doing the recall. Thanks again Karen.


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## RitaandRiley (Feb 27, 2012)

I'm watching, Karen!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

RitaandRiley said:


> I'm watching, Karen!


Good mom Rita , (chin-rub, chin-rub)


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

I like the food tray bucket! I can see using something like that on a walk and just keep reaching and treating so much eaiser than going into my pocket
Okay so if you were with a litter of puppy's could you use this petting technique to help pick out a dog that would maybe be more into someone petting and touching? Do you think it starts that young? Maddie always comes back for more . Sometimes Zoe seems to want to be close and touched but not with strangers. Maybe my technique of having a stranger put their hand out and try to pet her isn't a good idea. I usually pick her up and bring her more to the persons level and ask them to let her sniff and then pet. Maybe just a sniff is better.


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## sandypaws (Aug 8, 2012)

krandall said:


> Here's another video a friend posted today which goes REALLY well with the idea of giving the dog a choice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm watching, too, and taking it all in for the future. Hopefully this old brain will 
co-operate and be able to recall it when the time is right.


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## Atticus (May 17, 2011)

I watched the video Karen, fun because I'm on day 5 of clicker training Atticus to go in a air plane travel bag. Soooo fun. I just love watching him think,and he's quite smart so it goes pretty quickly. He just gets so excited when I get that bag and clicker out. I wish I knew how to post video or had someone else here to film because it is really such an excellent example of how choice works. I have basically said nothing beyond yes!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Suzi said:


> I like the food tray bucket! I can see using something like that on a walk and just keep reaching and treating so much eaiser than going into my pocket


That's what "bait bags" are for! You can get them at most pet stores, and they either attach to your belt, or have their own belt to go around your waist. It also saves you from putting the best REALLY SMELLY stuff in your pockets, and then wondering what you smell like when you go into the grocery store!ound:



Suzi said:


> Okay so if you were with a litter of puppy's could you use this petting technique to help pick out a dog that would maybe be more into someone petting and touching? Do you think it starts that young?


There is a LOT to temperament testing puppies, and much of it depends on testing them at the right time, as well as knowing the right techniques AND how to interpret the animal's actions. As I said, very few puppies want to cuddle all the time, and this is especially true of puppies. They will all have their wild times where the are just too busy to deal with you, and they will, unless they are WAY outside the range of normal for Havanese puppies, have their sweet, quiet, cuddly times too.

Hopefully Tom King will see this and can add more about temperament testing. I've watched it be done twice, once with Kodi's litter and once when another breeder brought a litter for Pam to test while we were visiting. But the Kings know a LOT more about the ins and outs of temperament testing than I do.



Suzi said:


> Maddie always comes back for more . Sometimes Zoe seems to want to be close and touched but not with strangers. Maybe my technique of having a stranger put their hand out and try to pet her isn't a good idea. I usually pick her up and bring her more to the persons level and ask them to let her sniff and then pet. Maybe just a sniff is better.


Watch the "choice" video again. This gives her no choice in greeting strangers at all. There is really no reason to expect that every dog has to enjoy and get excited about strangers.

I expect Kodi to be polite, as in not approach someone barking. (this can be a problem for us with men wearing hats in the winter time) I expect him to come back to me and sit quietly until the person passes. I would NEVER insist that he allow that "scary" person to touch him. Usually, if the person WANTS to meet him, if I ask them to crouch down and take their hat off, Kodi will very quickly move forward and make friends (especially if I've slipped the person a Charlee Bear or two )

By holding Zoey and MAKING her accept the advances of strangers, you are taking away her choice, reinforcing her fear and increasing her feeling that she needs to defend herself. In a worst case scenario, this can lead to a bite.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

sandypaws said:


> I'm watching, too, and taking it all in for the future. Hopefully this old brain will
> co-operate and be able to recall it when the time is right.


Mary, that's why I've started using Pinterest! It's a great way to organize interesting things you find on the internet so that you can find them again later!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Atticus said:


> I watched the video Karen, fun because I'm on day 5 of clicker training Atticus to go in a air plane travel bag. Soooo fun. I just love watching him think,and he's quite smart so it goes pretty quickly. He just gets so excited when I get that bag and clicker out. I wish I knew how to post video or had someone else here to film because it is really such an excellent example of how choice works. I have basically said nothing beyond yes!


Jody, you can just upload the videos to YouTube (step-by-step directions on the site, and they'll even "deshake" it for you!) Then you just put the link in your post here!


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## atsilvers27 (Jul 5, 2011)

Enjoyed the videos. The licking is definitely an appeasement gesture even if the dog licks you. I see it all the time for nail trims. Some of the less experienced girls think the dogs like them because they are "kissing" them but I let them know that's not what it means. Also how tail wagging isn't that a dog is "happy". It's interesting how much can be read from a dog's facial expression and body position. Dogs can pick up on our every subtle mood yet we struggle to understand them!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

atsilvers27 said:


> Enjoyed the videos. The licking is definitely an appeasement gesture even if the dog licks you. I see it all the time for nail trims. Some of the less experienced girls think the dogs like them because they are "kissing" them but I let them know that's not what it means. Also how tail wagging isn't that a dog is "happy". It's interesting how much can be read from a dog's facial expression and body position. Dogs can pick up on our every subtle mood yet we struggle to understand them!


 yeah I agree with the appeasement licking. But some tail wagging indicates a happy excited to meet you type. It important to notice that different breeds carry their tails differently. Being a groomer you will notice this even more. But generally a loose rear end with a wide moving sweep is indicitive of a friendly dog. When trying to read dogs, it's important to look at more than one body part to get a true sense of how they feel. Here is a post of mine from before on tail wagging http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=17712&highlight=tail+amplitude


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## Momo means Peach (Jun 7, 2011)

You are not alone! For the petting video - Momo, when she wants to be petted, usually jumps on the couch next to me and stares. If that doesn't work, she uses her paw to capture my attention. I know she doesn't like to be petted on her head and more often than not, rears back. However, Ume usually rolls onto his back whenever you approach. He loves the chest and belly rubs and doesn't rear back when petting anywhere. He's an attention hound and can't get enough.


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