# Settling in and training if vaccinations not complete



## lakediva (Mar 4, 2013)

Hi. Gussie is settling in pretty well, although the whole potty thing will be a struggle for a while. We are thinking of bringing a trainer in for some work before her vaccinations are complete. Any ideas about this...good, bad, too impatient? :violin: Thanks.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Absolutely, training can start the minute you bring your puppy home. Studies show that they can (and do!) learn way earlier than this, actually! That's why a good breeder is so important.

That said, most sources STRONGLY advise puppy Kindergarten, even before the puppy has had their last shots. If they have had their first shots (typically done while they are still with the breeder) they should be well protected. That does NOT mean to bring them to Petsmart or the dog park, but a clean, well-run dog training facility should be fine.

Many more dogs end up put to sleep or surrendered to shelters due to lack of early socialization (both with people AND other dogs) than die of puppyhood diseases. 

Puppy K is critical. The window of opportunity for good socialization starts to close by 16 weeks!!!


----------



## lakediva (Mar 4, 2013)

Thanks for the tips. I'll sign her up Monday morning for Puppy K. I'll go visit the facility before I bring her just to check out that it's up to the right cleanliness standards. I'll see what she thinks about the vaccination issue. 
I sort of did lose a puppy to Parvo last year from a different breeder than the one where we got Gussie. Last year's puppy died on the day we were going to pick her up. So, I'm probably a bit overly cautious about the issue. Gussie has only had one vaccination shot. Her breeder believes giving them about 9 weeks. So the next one isn't until April 5. But I have read all of Ian Dunbar's books. I like your sixteen week window for introducing to her at least 100 people much more than the 12 he allows.


----------



## sandypaws (Aug 8, 2012)

Welcome and best of luck with Gussie. She's adorable with beautiful coloring. Enjoy her and I understand your caution after what you experienced.


----------



## lakediva (Mar 4, 2013)

Thanks. We were drawn to her by her looks, but hooked by her personality...we're suckers for that Havanese gait and attitude.


----------



## Sparkle (May 17, 2012)

Isn't that little butt wiggle the cutest thing when they walk? Gussie is gorgeous! Can't wait to watch her grow up.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

lakediva said:


> Thanks for the tips. I'll sign her up Monday morning for Puppy K. I'll go visit the facility before I bring her just to check out that it's up to the right cleanliness standards. I'll see what she thinks about the vaccination issue.
> I sort of did lose a puppy to Parvo last year from a different breeder than the one where we got Gussie. Last year's puppy died on the day we were going to pick her up. So, I'm probably a bit overly cautious about the issue. Gussie has only had one vaccination shot. Her breeder believes giving them about 9 weeks. So the next one isn't until April 5. But I have read all of Ian Dunbar's books. I like your sixteen week window for introducing to her at least 100 people much more than the 12 he allows.


Actually, I DO agree with Ian Dunbar... That socialization needs to start WAY before you bring the puppy home, and then continue every day, with as many people and safe, vaccinated, friendly dogs as you can manage. Our Havanese puppies that come from reputable breeders sometimes do not go to their new homes until a little later than other, larger breeds. Often, breeders want to keep the pups to at least 10 weeks, sometimes 12. This is another reason that it is critical to pick a breeder who is conscientious, not only about breeding practices, but also about socializing those puppies and giving them a great start on potty training.

I'm sorry you lost a puppy to Parvo, but if it died before you even picked it up, it was something wrong with how the dogs were handled by the breeder. The Bitch should have good immunity, and the puppies get that immunity through her milk for the first few weeks. It's up to the breeder to make sure the puppies are protected during that change over.

If you haven't seen it, this is Dr. Dodds' vaccine protocol that many of us follow. She does recommend the first Distemper and Parvo shot between 9-10 weeks, so your breeder is right on target.

I think checking out your potential training center is a great idea... not only for cleanliness, but also to watch a lesson or two. See how the trainer interacts with the people and with the dogs. Make sure they use ONLY positive training methods. (no yanking or jerking leashes, no choke collars, no yelling or forcing the dogs...) While it's important for you to feel comfortable with the trainer too, I actually like to see how the DOGS respond to the trainer most. The owner of our training facility has a loud voice (probably from talking over puppy classes for so many years!:bounce and she can be a bit intimidating to a some people when they don't know her. But she has a heart of gold, and the dogs all LOVE her!!!


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Sparkle said:


> Isn't that little butt wiggle the cutest thing when they walk? Gussie is gorgeous! Can't wait to watch her grow up.


I know! I love it when we're out on a walk, and Kodi is sashaying down the sidewalk ahead of me, with that perky little tail in the air swagger! It can't help but bring a smile to your face!


----------



## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

I took my puppy to puppy K at the local dog training club. They assured me they clean with bleach and the puppies are hand carried in by the owners. If you have a dog training club in your area I would check into that. My puppy was younger and smaller than the other puppies and he was vocal the first few times until we hit upon the right treats (turkey and chicken) and then he started to like it. We're going back again for another class which is a combination of crate games for the first half and something else in the second half. My puppy LOVES training now and he is so smart, we may pursue more training depending upon how this class goes. 

We simply dont know enough people to socialize our dog well enough on our own and I really want an adaptable, friendly dog, so I found the class very helpful. It was also great to have access to a trainer for general Q&A for various puppy issues.


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Exactly Karen , no need to wait for socialization . http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/puppy_socialization.pdf


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

lakediva said:


> Thanks for the tips. I'll sign her up Monday morning for Puppy K. I'll go visit the facility before I bring her just to check out that it's up to the right cleanliness standards. I'll see what she thinks about the vaccination issue.
> I sort of did lose a puppy to Parvo last year from a different breeder than the one where we got Gussie. Last year's puppy died on the day we were going to pick her up. So, I'm probably a bit overly cautious about the issue. Gussie has only had one vaccination shot. Her breeder believes giving them about 9 weeks. So the next one isn't until April 5. But I have read all of Ian Dunbar's books. I like your sixteen week window for introducing to her at least 100 people much more than the 12 he allows.


good for you for reading Ian. Here's an article this week by him . http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/dr-ian-dunbar/puppy-classes-and-canine-parvovirus


----------



## heatherk (Feb 24, 2011)

Gussie is so adorable! 

I agree with all of the above. You should be exposing Gussie to every thing that she needs to be OK with in her life (well, not diseases of course haha) - and not just you, it should have started with the breeder. People, children under supervision, 'safe' dogs or puppies in a safe environment, cats, car rides, vacuums, baths, brushings, blow dryers, eye booger cleanings. You should be handling her feet, petting her while she eats, handling her on a leash, etc. You should also start training to avoid separation anxiety at this age IMHO, even if you don't intend on leaving her for any length of time. 

Fun stuff! My little guy is 11 weeks old, so he is close in age to Gussie! -I can't believe that I am doing this all over again haha


----------



## heatherk (Feb 24, 2011)

I forgot to mention - puppy K is great, but another thing you can do (not instead of, just another thing you can do) is a lot of places have puppy socialization sessions where puppies can get together just to play in a clean, safe, comfortable environment with their owners and a trained professional present.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

SJ1998 said:


> I took my puppy to puppy K at the local dog training club. They assured me they clean with bleach and the puppies are hand carried in by the owners. If you have a dog training club in your area I would check into that. My puppy was younger and smaller than the other puppies and he was vocal the first few times until we hit upon the right treats (turkey and chicken) and then he started to like it. We're going back again for another class which is a combination of crate games for the first half and something else in the second half. My puppy LOVES training now and he is so smart, we may pursue more training depending upon how this class goes.
> 
> We simply dont know enough people to socialize our dog well enough on our own and I really want an adaptable, friendly dog, so I found the class very helpful. It was also great to have access to a trainer for general Q&A for various puppy issues.


Yay for you!!! I love it when people get hooked on training with their dogs. These dos are SO smart, and enjoy working with us SO much. It' a great wAy to bond too!


----------



## Ewokpup (Nov 3, 2012)

Our vet didn't even want Bama's feet touching the grass on our street until she had her shots, which were delayed because she was sick. Bama being a city dog we didnt have a grass yard of our own, and too many people dont clean up after their dogs around here. We would have let her hang out with healthy dogs we knew, but we didn't want to get them sick. 
To make up for not getting to play with other dogs, we made sure she got exposed to everything else...car rides, staying in her carrier under the table when we went to outdoor dog friendly eating spots, lots of people, vacuum cleaner, and our old neighbor has parrots she got to listen to every day. If we went to Petco to pick up supplies we took her in her carrier. So while she didn't get up close and personal with other dogs, she could see, smell and hear them. Especially in the vet's waiting room.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ewokpup said:


> Our vet didn't even want Bama's feet touching the grass on our street until she had her shots, which were delayed because she was sick. Bama being a city dog we didnt have a grass yard of our own, and too many people dont clean up after their dogs around here. We would have let her hang out with healthy dogs we knew, but we didn't want to get them sick.
> To make up for not getting to play with other dogs, we made sure she got exposed to everything else...car rides, staying in her carrier under the table when we went to outdoor dog friendly eating spots, lots of people, vacuum cleaner, and our old neighbor has parrots she got to listen to every day. If we went to Petco to pick up supplies we took her in her carrier. So while she didn't get up close and personal with other dogs, she could see, smell and hear them. Especially in the vet's waiting room.


Yes, it's a different situation if YOUR puppy is sick. You owe it to everyone else not to expose their pups... just like with sick kids. And I would think that city streets would be more dangerous in terms of the potential of picking up germs... I don't know enough about that.

But it sounds like you did all you could, and then, I hope you made up for it with LOTS of socialization as soon as you could.


----------



## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

We barely let our dog go outside the first two weeks (just to the car so he would at least get used to that!) after we brought him home on the advice of our breeder. We used the pee pads etc. It was a different experience than what I was used to with a puppy. With our lab I did not know any better and took him everywhere when he was little. He never got sick but with the Hav, I was going to do what the breeder recommended as she is very respected in health for havs etc. After the two weeks we took him to the puppy class and to places like Home Goods and Home Depot, but we stayed out of PetSmart and Petco for awhile. We did start taking him outside also as he preferred that over the pee pad.

An update on our class - we went to the crate games class on Tuesday. It is very interesting! Both of the dogs seemed to like it. I really like the concept. The first week we focused on having the dog sit (without telling him to sit...no verbal commands...it's interesting!) when you open the door etc. We have three more weeks of the crate games session so I will report back on what happens!


----------



## lakediva (Mar 4, 2013)

The trainer to whom I spoke is not wild about bringing Gussie in before her second shot. So, she came to us and worked with us both in the back yard. BRAG ALERT-- In one lesson, Gussie got the " Let's Go!!" to start a leashed walk and sits, and then comes for the treat. All Havanese probably learn this quickly, which is why, I'm assuming, they're fun to teach tricks to. We'll have her in puppy kindergarten as soon as she's got that second shot. I also don't know tons of people who would be good to bring around to help socialize her, but the breeder did a great job up to 9 1/2 weeks when we got her. Now she's riding with me in car, went to the museum with me, and there are lots of noises in our neighborhood she seems to be getting used to.
As for Ian Dunbar, I have read two of his books and many essays and they sound so sensible. His stridency about socialization and proper training from the get-go is understandable considering what's at stake. I just think his advocacy of a 12 week or bust window, while no doubt viable, is intimidating. It's meant to be. I truly get that, but I'm just saying, 16 weeks sounds reasonable to me, too. There's enough stress to all of this and wanting to do it right as it is. And I especially love his idea of kibble in KONGS to help them puzzle it out while confined for necessary absences. We,re practicing almost all of his suggestions.
Now. A question about "martindale collars." They look like modified choke collars to me. Are they to be avoided for training? What if a wonderful trainer thinks they're the only kind to use? Thanks.


----------



## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

lakediva said:


> The trainer to whom I spoke is not wild about bringing Gussie in before her second shot. So, she came to us and worked with us both in the back yard. BRAG ALERT-- In one lesson, Gussie got the " Let's Go!!" to start a leashed walk and sits, and then comes for the treat. All Havanese probably learn this quickly, which is why, I'm assuming, they're fun to teach tricks to. We'll have her in puppy kindergarten as soon as she's got that second shot. I also don't know tons of people who would be good to bring around to help socialize her, but the breeder did a great job up to 9 1/2 weeks when we got her. Now she's riding with me in car, went to the museum with me, and there are lots of noises in our neighborhood she seems to be getting used to.
> As for Ian Dunbar, I have read two of his books and many essays and they sound so sensible. His stridency about socialization and proper training from the get-go is understandable considering what's at stake. I just think his advocacy of a 12 week or bust window, while no doubt viable, is intimidating. It's meant to be. I truly get that, but I'm just saying, 16 weeks sounds reasonable to me, too. There's enough stress to all of this and wanting to do it right as it is. And I especially love his idea of kibble in KONGS to help them puzzle it out while confined for necessary absences. We,re practicing almost all of his suggestions.
> Now. A question about "martindale collars." They look like modified choke collars to me. Are they to be avoided for training? What if a wonderful trainer thinks they're the only kind to use? Thanks.


they really aren't for small dogs like our Havanese. It is scary, but 16 weeks is where things are critical .


----------



## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

You can get a Gentle Leader for your hav. The dog training club we go to prefers them and fixed the settings on a "petite" size for our hav. Our hav is on the small side and it fit. 

The Kong did not work for us initially. He just wasnt that into it and I was too worried about him not eating or drinking enough in those first couple of weeks that we fed him normally (three times per day). Now we use the kong with peanut butter especially during grooming sessions. And I cant imagine worrying about this dog eating...he has turned into quite the pig.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

lakediva said:


> The trainer to whom I spoke is not wild about bringing Gussie in before her second shot. So, she came to us and worked with us both in the back yard. BRAG ALERT-- In one lesson, Gussie got the " Let's Go!!" to start a leashed walk and sits, and then comes for the treat. All Havanese probably learn this quickly, which is why, I'm assuming, they're fun to teach tricks to. We'll have her in puppy kindergarten as soon as she's got that second shot. I also don't know tons of people who would be good to bring around to help socialize her, but the breeder did a great job up to 9 1/2 weeks when we got her. Now she's riding with me in car, went to the museum with me, and there are lots of noises in our neighborhood she seems to be getting used to.
> As for Ian Dunbar, I have read two of his books and many essays and they sound so sensible. His stridency about socialization and proper training from the get-go is understandable considering what's at stake. I just think his advocacy of a 12 week or bust window, while no doubt viable, is intimidating. It's meant to be. I truly get that, but I'm just saying, 16 weeks sounds reasonable to me, too. There's enough stress to all of this and wanting to do it right as it is. And I especially love his idea of kibble in KONGS to help them puzzle it out while confined for necessary absences. We,re practicing almost all of his suggestions.
> Now. A question about "martindale collars." They look like modified choke collars to me. Are they to be avoided for training? What if a wonderful trainer thinks they're the only kind to use? Thanks.


As Dave said, 16 weeks is when the critical period for socialization is closing, not 12. But it goes by very quickly, too!!!

Martingales are mostly used for dogs that tend to have heavy necks and smaller heads. It keeps them from backing out of the collar. A properly adjusted martingale collar should NEVER choke. It should still have room under it when it is in it's tightest position. It just gets even LOOSER when the lead is slack.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

SJ1998 said:


> You can get a Gentle Leader for your hav. The dog training club we go to prefers them and fixed the settings on a "petite" size for our hav. Our hav is on the small side and it fit.
> 
> The Kong did not work for us initially. He just wasnt that into it and I was too worried about him not eating or drinking enough in those first couple of weeks that we fed him normally (three times per day). Now we use the kong with peanut butter especially during grooming sessions. And I cant imagine worrying about this dog eating...he has turned into quite the pig.


Gentle Leader (if you mean the "head halter" type) aren't a good choice for dogs with facial hair. They tend to pull on the hair and hurt. If a regular flat buckle collar or harness isn't enough, another good option is a front attachment harness, like the Sense-ible. Used properly, these are very effective in teaching a dog not to pull. But the bottom line is that it's most;y an issue of time and training that teaches dogs to walk politely on a loose lead without pulling.


----------



## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

krandall said:


> Gentle Leader (if you mean the "head halter" type) aren't a good choice for dogs with facial hair. They tend to pull on the hair and hurt. If a regular flat buckle collar or harness isn't enough, another good option is a front attachment harness, like the Sense-ible. Used properly, these are very effective in teaching a dog not to pull. But the bottom line is that it's most;y an issue of time and training that teaches dogs to walk politely on a loose lead without pulling.


Thanks for the info, yes it is the halter type that goes around the nose. I was not aware of that it would hurt with a hav. I bought him a harness but he is still a little small for it and I was worried about him pulling with his regular buckle collar when we walk in the neighborhood. We are working with him and he is pretty good about not pulling, but sometimes when there are people around he starts pulling to try to catch up with them.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

SJ1998 said:


> Thanks for the info, yes it is the halter type that goes around the nose. I was not aware of that it would hurt with a hav. I bought him a harness but he is still a little small for it and I was worried about him pulling with his regular buckle collar when we walk in the neighborhood. We are working with him and he is pretty good about not pulling, but sometimes when there are people around he starts pulling to try to catch up with them.


You can get teeny tiny harnessess... That fit Chihuahua pups. I'd be very surprised if you can't get one to fit your Hav. Try Puppia brand.


----------

