# Need Training Advice Please!



## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Years ago, I originally learned to train the old fashioned way with a choke collar and leash. I will no longer train that way but I am in a bit of a dilemma. With the method I was taught (choke collar), if the dog refused to do a command, you did a quick little jerk on the leash while wearing the choke collar and said "NO" in a stern voice. Don't worry - I never jerked the lease enough to choke or cause pain. It was more of an attention getter and my heart dog, Foxy, never exhibited fear or cease to love me. But I will not use that method again.

With Willow, I am trying the positive approach with treats, lots of praise and pets. I try to change it up so she doesn't always get a treat. She will obey when she knows I have treats, but if I don't, she obeys only if she feels like it! :frusty: With the old choke collar method, that would result in a jerk and a "NO". With the positive technique, what should the consequences be if she disobeys? It seems to me if she chooses to disobey, there should be some negative consequence. I need advice! Please help!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Dogs who don’t do what you want are either confused about what you want or they are just acting on their own instincts of the moment. Rarely does a dog act out of “defiance.” That’s a human motive. When we penalize dogs for acting like dogs because we interpret it as coming from motives on which humans act on but dogs do not, we do them a grave injustice. Dogs who are corrected for “disobedience” when they are really just trying to tell something to their owners . Dogs are rarely lazy or disobedient or stubborn, more often they are unmotivated, unable, or unsure about the request that is upon them. 
you sound like a reader, go to Dog Star Daily and search for more specifics.

sorry I can't offer more, I'm having trouble typing today.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

Thank you Dave. I am not familiar with Dog Star Daily but I will certainly check it out. I have to say, though, that Willow seems consciously willful and sassy! I also know she's very smart. I once read that the smarter the dog, the harder to train. I also know we all tend to humanize our dogs. I know I find myself doing that. They are such smart little guys that it's hard not to!


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## Zoe093014 (Jan 27, 2015)

In my opinion dogs definitely have instinctive drives. They have the prey drive, they have a mating drive, they have a hunger drive, they have a companionship drive, especially meeting up with others of their species, and the drive to follow a pack leader. In the case of a Havanese, or at least mine, fun and games are a special priority! I understand where Jackie is coming from. I think to shape behavior, and especially to discourage unwanted behaviors, you have to tailor it to the individual dog or breed to intercept their instinctive drives.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

trainability in dogs can definitely be related to playfulness. 

the best book I've read on trainability in dogs is by Jane Killion called When Pigs Fly , check it out.


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## Karen Collins (Mar 21, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> Dogs who don't do what you want are either confused about what you want or they are just acting on their own instincts of the moment. Rarely does a dog act out of "defiance." That's a human motive. When we penalize dogs for acting like dogs because we interpret it as coming from motives on which humans act on but dogs do not, we do them a grave injustice. Dogs who are corrected for "disobedience" when they are really just trying to tell something to their owners . Dogs are rarely lazy or disobedient or stubborn, more often they are unmotivated, unable, or unsure about the request that is upon them.
> you sound like a reader, go to Dog Star Daily and search for more specifics.
> 
> sorry I can't offer more, I'm having trouble typing today.


Well said, Dave. Also, I'm sorry you are struggling.


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

And it's on Kindle, yay! Just went on Amazon and it looks great I'm getting it! Thanks Dave! Mae is one of these dogs, just has a different agenda unlike her brother. Don't mean to thread steal Jackie! I want to so some specialized, home training, with Mae while she's recovering from surgery and this book might give me a good platform to start on as we progress to more mobility! She'll be a captive audience LOL.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

good stuff Jen ,enjoy


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

jabojenny said:


> And it's on Kindle, yay! Just went on Amazon and it looks great I'm getting it! Thanks Dave! Mae is one of these dogs, just has a different agenda unlike her brother. Don't mean to thread steal Jackie!


Ha! Ha! Don't worry about thread stealing. I appreciate all comments, opinions and advice. And yes, thank you Dave for the book reference. I'm going to check it out too. I originally got the book titled Little Dogs: Training Your Pint Sized Companion. I found it helpful, especially in the instructions on how to teach the sit command. I didn't realize that you were not to press down on the back or hind quarters. Just that alone was worth the price of the book. I've been considering getting a book called Competitive Obedience Training for the Small Dog. Both these books are on Amazon with good reviews.

I've just read some of the reviews on When Pigs Fly. I see it uses the clicker training method. I've never tried that method. It's worth a try, but I just don't understand what satisfaction or positive reaction a dog would get from a clicker. Guess I should read the book!

Again, thank you Dave for all your advice.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

", but I just don't understand what satisfaction or positive reaction a dog would get from a clicker."

the clicker predicts the reward /reinforcement to come. It marks the behavior he did right. http://www.clickertraining.com/


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

davetgabby said:


> ", but I just don't understand what satisfaction or positive reaction a dog would get from a clicker."
> 
> the clicker predicts the reward /reinforcement to come. It marks the behavior he did right. http://www.clickertraining.com/


I got it! That makes sense now. Thanks.


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

If you "prime" them to the sound of the clicker they will LOVE the clicker. In the beginning I always started with some click-treat, click-treat they learn fast. I crack up when they hear something that sounds remotely like the clicker the turn around and look at me.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

jabojenny said:


> If you "prime" them to the sound of the clicker they will LOVE the clicker. In the beginning I always started with some click-treat, click-treat they learn fast. I crack up when they hear something that sounds remotely like the clicker the turn around and look at me.


It makes perfect sense to me now! My corgi would come running to the rattle of the coffee can (that's where we kept her kibble) or the sound of a banana being peeled. I had a cat once that would come running to the sound of the can opener!


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## MiasMomma (Jun 14, 2015)

I have thoroughly enjoyed learning the new way to train a puppy! Our breeder recommended (and all breeders should insist!) that we read The Focused Puppy, by Deborah Jones and Judy Keller, available now on Amazon. I've read the book at least 10 times, highlighted, reread. They use the clicker method too, and lots of treats. Always always have kibble in my pocket and never command without a reward, since my Mia is still only 6 months old. I'm no longer concerned that I have to reward her all the time. She's still a baby. 
I will confess that we've finally stopped the rug chewing by clanging a plastic ladle on a metal pot. But it might not work tomorrow  
These doggies are oozing intelligence, and yes, I think that makes training more difficult, in some ways, but the only way they know that a sofa table is NOT a sofa is to teach them  .
This book explains how to reinforce the good behaviors and discourage or not reward the wrong ones. 
We have a long way to go on a few things yet, but I'd be lost without this book, this forum and the Facebook forum. 
Good Luck! If I can do it, anyone can!!


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

MiasMomma said:


> I have thoroughly enjoyed learning the new way to train a puppy! Our breeder recommended (and all breeders should insist!) that we read The Focused Puppy, by Deborah Jones and Judy Keller, available now on Amazon. I've read the book at least 10 times, highlighted, reread.
> 
> We have a long way to go on a few things yet, but I'd be lost without this book, this forum and the Facebook forum.
> Good Luck! If I can do it, anyone can!!


Thanks for the encouragement. Willow is not what I would consider a puppy as she is over a year old. Acts like one though! I'll take a look at the book you recommended too. I didn't know there was a Facebook forum. I don't go on Facebook very often and find it confusing, but I'll try and find that forum. I don't think any forum could top this one though. :whoo:


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## Zoe093014 (Jan 27, 2015)

I have to admit that I never used treats to the extent they advocate using them these days, but that book "When Pigs Fly" seems interesting, from the sample on Amazon. Thanks!


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## Zoe093014 (Jan 27, 2015)

I was just blown away. I went out to take Zoe for a walk when I past a man who was walking 2 large female dogs, off leash but tethered to each other. (BTW, I hadseen and talked to him a few times before and I knew he is always in full control of his dogs.) Obviously his dogs were curious about Zoe who just happens to be in season and who was in a very excited state, anxious to meet them as well. He assured me that they his dogs would be fine with her. Then, after allowing the greeting, he said in a very calm normal speaking voice, "OK, guys, let's go for a walk". They instantly turned and followed behind him closely, still tethered to each other and still off leash. He used no treats, clickers, etc. He was definitely the pack leader. I was in awe and want his secret!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yeah if you are going to greet other dogs, they should be trained in this way. I wouldn't recommend meeting other dogs when yours is in season. Not all dogs are as good as his were. Many males lose their training when meeting a female in season.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jackie from Concrete said:


> Thanks for the encouragement. Willow is not what I would consider a puppy as she is over a year old. Acts like one though! I'll take a look at the book you recommended too. I didn't know there was a Facebook forum. I don't go on Facebook very often and find it confusing, but I'll try and find that forum. I don't think any forum could top this one though. :whoo:


A one year old dog is still a puppy mentally, and because she is new to you, she needs to be treated more like a puppy than a one year old dog who had been with her owner since she was 8 weeks old.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Zoe093014 said:


> I have to admit that I never used treats to the extent they advocate using them these days, but that book "When Pigs Fly" seems interesting, from the sample on Amazon. Thanks!


It depends on what you want your dog to learn. If all you want is "household rules" type obedience, then training without treats is certainly possible, though I still prefer the type of relationship I develop with rewards based training. But if you want your dog to CONTINUE to work for you and learn new behaviors, you really have to get buy-in from the dog too. That means rewards based training of some sort, whether it is food, toys or personal play.


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## Jackie from Concrete WA (Mar 23, 2015)

krandall said:


> A one year old dog is still a puppy mentally, and because she is new to you, she needs to be treated more like a puppy than a one year old dog who had been with her owner since she was 8 weeks old.


Thank you for the advice. Everyone tells me that they really are more puppylike until they get to be 2 or 3 years old. I'm finally getting use to her energy. Foxy was a quadriplegic when I gave her the final gift, so going from Foxy to Willow was a HUGE change!


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