# Are long coats really insulating...?



## Ltartof (Sep 17, 2018)

I have read that the long, silky Hava coat insulates against heat. It seems that my guy (who is all black) just seems hotter when his coat is longer. What do folks think about this idea/trait/theory? 

Linda and Che


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

https://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2014/05/12/pet-coat-shaving.aspx

https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/why-you-shouldnt-shave-your-dog-in-summer/


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## NickieTwo (Jun 17, 2013)

Our summers are in the triple digest all summer long. We have had full coated Siberian huskies, a collie, an Aussie, a sheltie, and now two havs. All of them have done well in the Arizona summer heat. The Aussie was shaved way down without our permission (thought we were just ok-ing the removal of a few mats) - it didn't help her, the hair never grew back right, and I also had to be concerned about sunburn.
None of our dogs have stayed outside for long periods and none get walked in summer daytime because those hot sidewalks can badly burn paws.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

We shaved Ricky down when we first got him as a puppy. We did that because we were frustrated with all the mats and "blowing coat" as his adult hair was growing in. We feel that was a mistake. Today, Ricky's coat is not as long and luxurious as a Havanese that has not been shaved at one time or another. BUT, his coat is still beautiful and we still get constant comments from total strangers.

Our summers are generally in high 90s to low 100s. But, we don't take the insulation out of our house because the weather is warm outside. Havanese were developed in Cuba with much warmer temperatures and humidity year round and they have not only survived but flourished there over the years with that beautiful, long silky coat. During the summer, we walk and exercise Ricky in the cooler morning hours, say around 7 am. He remains in the air-conditioned indoors with us during the day. We walk him again in the evening around 8 pm after the pavement and sidewalks have had an opportunity to cool down. We have lawn mow strips next to our sidewalks and we encourage Ricky to walk on the lawn. IN MY OPINION, hot pavement poses a greater health risk and hazard to a Havanese in the summer than a long coat. And depending on your summers, you do run the risk of sunburn depending on the length of the coat if shaved down. Shaving a Havanese poses some risk both aesthetically and physically, but many people do it with no apparent long term affects. Ricky's Vet is neutral on the subject. He thinks Ricky is just fine with his long summer coat in our location (but that is specific to our climatic conditions - he might have a different conclusion in a different location).

Ricky THRIVES during our summers with his longish coat. He seems to have even MORE energy during our summers. Ricky much prefers our summers to our winters. He hates the dampness and rain. No doubt about it, Ricky is a warm weather dog.

Ricky's Popi


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## Ltartof (Sep 17, 2018)

Thanks to all, we have never shaved Che, or a least I don't think so. His groomer does a long puppy cut. I am not sure that we have ever seen the blowing coat that others have referenced, as we do keep him a long puppy cut. I was thinking about letting him grow out, but not sure I can keep up with the demands! He plays with other dogs a LOT, and they wrestle and drool and run into puddles and mud... but then again, we are retired! Lots of time for dog care. 

PS I am not sure what constitutes a shave. We never get shorter than a #3 blade.. (I used to do our previous dog)


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Ltartof said:


> PS I am not sure what constitutes a shave. We never get shorter than a #3 blade.. (I used to do our previous dog)


Ricky was cut with a #3 blade when we had him "shaved" once in a puppy cut. (My terminology is confusing). We have always regretted it. Your experience may be different.

Ricky's Popi.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

We have some in all stages of cuts, or no cuts. I've never seen it make any difference.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Dave, your first article says, "In my opinion, double-coated breeds should never be shaved unless there's a medical reason to do so, as their undercoats act as an excellent insulator against the summer heat. It seems counterintuitive that an extra layer of fur would help a dog stay cooler, but it does. Air is a natural insulator, and air trapped between the hair follicles and hairs on your pet's body does a really efficient job of keeping body temperature in balance."

Does the Havanese have an undercoat? Thanks! (Don't answer that question! Read my next post.)


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

This article explains what a double coat is:

https://www.thehonestkitchen.com/blog/what-is-a-double-coat-on-a-dog/

Dave, your second article says, "What's supposed to happen is that your dog sheds his undercoat in summer, leaving the guard hairs to provide your dog with insulation, and allowing cool air to circulate near his skin."

I liked your second article better than your first. I appreciated its illustrations!


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

I Love! Love! :x them all. The long coats, hair toppers and long mustaches, as well as, those precious puppy cuts. You do have to find a groomer that knows how to scissor cut to get an excellent puppy cut. For our lifestyle a longish puppy cut, with full legs, long ears, short top with eyebrows framing those pretty brown eyes and long ears is my preference.

Although, Patti is indoors most of the time she is in and out all day long and into the evening. We have a fenced yard and don't need to walk her for exercise. The grass is almost always dewey and wet in the mornings. She and a Golden-doodle, also, like to rough house inside and outside. For awhile, I let her mustache and hair grow but it was more maintenance that I wanted to care for.

To Preface: I'm NO EXPERT on Havanese but I do not see how cutting their hair would FOREVER have an effect on it's fullness or beauty should you later decided to let the hair grow long. I've read if you want to Show a Havanese you should NEVER cut their hair ... without a reason for this statement. Perhaps Show dogs are typically young dogs and if you cut their hair it will take a long time for it to grow. _My Guess...._

Hair grows every day. Even long haired dogs have to be trimmed. Eventually all the hair of a dog whose *hair has never *been cut is replaced with new growth. It's a biological certainty. If it stopped growing the hair would eventually break-off because it would become dry and brittle. Just like people hair.

If you cut the hair it's, of course, going to take a long time for new hair to the floor, to replace the long hair that was cut.

I can see if the hair folic becomes damaged due to it becoming a matted mess and the dog must be shaved - that could change the character of the hair. It could stopped growing or changed direction or texture.

My dog is 15-months old. Her hair has only gotten more lush and thicker as she has aged. I have not experienced a sudden undergrowth of new hair that has been exceptionally difficult to comb. Her hair is has a little wave to it and is fairly easy to comb even when long. I believe, straight hair is probably easier to manage than curly hair that's more prone to mat.

Anyway ... if there is a reason why simply cutting Havanese harms the beauty, lushness and texture of hair growth, should one decide to later let it grow long - I'd like to know. :smile2:


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

No Havanese expert here but I am the 3rd. owner of a 2yr. 3 mo. I got him at 9 months. One of the previous owners did not want to brush him and they had him shaved down(right down to probably nothing) and his head, ears beard were very short. This was probably 2 months before I got him. He barely had any hair when I got him from the breeder. He was pretty sad looking and skinny.
My groomer hand scissors him into a very long puppy cut with a nicely clipped face, tail and fuller legs. We are in S. Florida and he is an active little boy. Wrestling with his friends, out walking. I get a big handful of hair every 2nd. day when I brush him. 
He SHEDS. Not all over your clothes and furniture. But little tuffs, it is strange. Medically, there is no cause for this shedding. I vacuum up a lot of his hair every couple days. I wonder if it is something to do with him being shaved so short.
Does anyone else think their Hav sheds? Is this normal?


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## Ltartof (Sep 17, 2018)

I also am wondering about the effect of cutting hair. It seems to me that leaving a 1/2 inch is the same as not cutting it at all since only the follicle is alive. However, I have never had a Havanese before. My guy seems, at one year, to have one type of hair, and I have not seen what others describe as "guard hairs". I really appreciate this conversation!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

We've never shaved one down to the skin, but cutting it short has no effect on it growing out again, except it takes a long time. I don't think it takes any longer for it to grow out than it did the first time.

They don't shed, but they do loose hair, just like people do. Live with a short haired dog, like a Dalmation, and you will see the difference in what shedding really is.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

The coats vary from a silky, single coat, to a thick double, curly coat. There are Many variations in between. The silky coats are the easiest to maintain.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

They don't shed, but they do loose hair, just like people do. Live with a short haired dog, like a Dalmation, and you will see the difference in what shedding really is.[/QUOTE]

He certainly seems to lose a ton of hair then. Between what I brush out and what I vacuum, there is a lot. His hair is very thick and full despite the falling out.
I guess I thought that he would be like my Bichons in this respect. My last Bichon was kept in a full show clip and I brushed him almost everyday. I'd collect a bit of hair from the brush. Never found his hair on the baseboards and under furniture ever.
Thanks for the response. I've wondered about this.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Sounds unusual, but they do have a tremendous variation in coats, from one to the other.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

It takes approximately (again, as Tom said, it varies a lot from dog to dog) 3 years for a Havanese coat to fully grow. From a tiny puppy to a fully mature coat and from a cut coat to a coat where you can see no vestiges of the cut ends. So that's why people who show are very reluctant to have any hair cut. It means a LONG time out of the show ring if a dog is cut down. 

But I've seen people go from a "puppy cut" to what, for them as pet people, felt like a full coat in a year or so. Anyone who knows Havanese well could see where the cut hair was growing out, but it was long enough to be really cute... just not something you could put in the ring. But these weren't people who were showing anyway, so who cares?

Just like people who never cut their hair, the hair on a Havanese will find its own natural length FOR THAT DOG (or person). Each will be a little different. Also, pet dogs who run in the woods and tussle with playmates (like my three) will certainly have more breakage than many show dogs being heavily campaigned, who often spend the majority of their time in an ex-pen, and heaven forbid that another dog touch their coat.  Not ALL show dogs are kept that way, but many are.

It is also incorrect for a Havanese coat to grow so long that it trails on the ground, so needs to be trimmed to keep that from happening. (as opposed to a Maltese or Yorkie coat, which is supposed to be cut off at ground level) But you see that in the ring all the time too. No dog is perfect. And if I had to choose a fault, I'd take a too-long silky coat over a puff-ball frizzy coat with too thick an undercoat any day. The too long coat is something that is easy for pet owners to manage. Those dogs from the puffball lines ALL get cut down in pet homes because they just mat too badly for pet owners to be able to manage it. Quite frankly, even in show/breeding homes, those dogs are generally cut down as soon as their show career is over.

You've all seen photos of Kodi many, many times. He never had scissors TOUCH his coat other than to trim his feet and sanitary area for 10 years. (until about a month ago) I've included a few photos that show Kodi's full, adult length coat, clean and groomed, but not with "conformation show type" care. Since I modeled his "puppy cut" on photos of him at about 10 months, I suspect that if I were to let him grow out for a year or so, many people wouldn't see much difference. A person who knows Havanese coats well would probably be able to see that it had been cut for another year after that. (But we'll see what happens. He's going to stay this length, at LEAST for the next few months  ) But cut ends have a DEFINITE different look to them than ends that have grown out naturally. You can spot them easily once you know what to look for.

I don't think people should be afraid of putting their Havanese in a puppy cut. It is purely a matter of personal choice. So is whether that is done with clippers or hand scissoring. If it is done with clippers, it should be done with clipper guards, and not be too close a cut. If you don't know what you are doing, the first time have a professional do it and ask if you can watch. Scissoring is a lot more expensive, but if you want a longer puppy cut, it's the only way to get it, since even the longest clipper guard will only leave about 3". Hair grows, Havanese hair grows pretty fast. It's just that to get a SHOW coat, it has to grow a long way! To get a cute, fluffy coat takes a lot less time.

SHAVING, however, should be only in the direst of circumstances. When a dog has been so neglected that it is matted to the skin and usually is done under heavy sedation. Or if the dog has a wound or skin condition or needs surgery. In all cases, a shaved dog will need protection from both sun and cold until its hair grows out again.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Oh, and you can also have variations in coat on one dog. Panda's white hair is substantially longer than her black hair. This is also a little bit evident on Kodi, but not to NEARLY the extreme it is on Panda. Maybe on her it is more evident because her body, just a big band around the middle, is black, and both ends are white, then her ears are black, while her face is white. So she has a luxuriant mustache and ruff around her neck, and in comparison, her ears look a bit moth-eaten. Fortunately, the black hair on the sides of her face hides that somewhat! And she's got lovely, long, thick "leggings", then her "skirt" under her tummy (the black part) looks like it's one size too short. (I'm picking on my poor girl.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Thanks! Karen for the education on Havanese hair and hair cuts. It was interesting you noted that Panda's black and white hair is different. Makes me smile. I love these dogs. I've noticed different patches of hair on Patti that are different.


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## Ltartof (Sep 17, 2018)

Thanks to all! I am getting more emboldened about growing out his coat. No show dog here, but the idea that the coat will STOP growing (my previous dog was part poodle, and it would never stop...) and that it can be maintained with trimming and grooming is really interesting. Have never shaved a dog except for surgical sites, so the longish puppy cut is our choice for now. But he is only a year old, and we are aware that the coat can change.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ltartof said:


> Thanks to all! I am getting more emboldened about growing out his coat. No show dog here, but the idea that the coat will STOP growing (my previous dog was part poodle, and it would never stop...) and that it can be maintained with trimming and grooming is really interesting. Have never shaved a dog except for surgical sites, so the longish puppy cut is our choice for now. But he is only a year old, and we are aware that the coat can change.


Poodles hair will stop too. All hair stops, dies, and is replaced by a new hair. It's a matter of when, and whether you want to deal with the matting of a curly coat like a poodle until you see how long it gets before it reaches it's natural full length.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Mikki said:


> Anyway ... if there is a reason why simply cutting Havanese harms the beauty, lushness and texture of hair growth, should one decide to later let it grow long - I'd like to know. :smile2:


This is the second article that davetgabby posted:

https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/why-you-shouldnt-shave-your-dog-in-summer/

It lists four ways to help your dog stay cool after having your groomer help you remove the undercoat (with proper combs/brushes and/or a high powered dryer).

It says "shaving a double-coated breed can really ruin the coat" and goes on to explain why. Most of the articles I've read suggest that keeping your dog in a longer puppy cut is OK whereas shaving is the real thing to avoid. But the author of this one says she made the mistake of getting her Samoyed a "teddy bear" cut. She explains in detail how this cut (not shave . . .) ruined his coat.

I find this topic very interesting because people are constantly criticizing me for keeping Shama in a full coat. They think I'm torturing her in the summer.

Here are some photos we took of Shama at my parent's house in northern Minnesota on August 20, 2019.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

ShamaMama said:


> Here are some photos we took of Shama at my parent's house in northern Minnesota on August 20, 2019.


Every time you post pictures of Shama my kids go crazy. She epitomizes the perky, sweet personality of Havanese, and she's so well behaved!


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

ShamaMama said:


> This is the second article that davetgabby posted:
> 
> https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/why-you-shouldnt-shave-your-dog-in-summer/
> 
> ...


Our groomer has Pomeranians. She said cutting the coat will forever destroy it because it changes the texture. I remember a few years ago a groomer here on HF shaved her Havanese. She then posted monthly pictures of the dogs coat for one year. It was interesting watching the growth of the coat.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

The main reason I keep Mia in a short puppy cut is because it is quicker and easier to do frequent tick checks. Every time I let her grow longer I will miss an occasional tick. Shorter hair makes it super easy to brush and comb her thoroughly. Her hair is silky and I can even use a rolling pin flea comb on her which removes dead skin and loose hair, as well as finding ticks. I also use topical tick repellent spray on her which is easily brushed out when her hair is short. I live in an area densely populated by deer and ticks are everywhere. Ehrlichiosis is epidemic which can be transmitted by the lone star tick in as little as three hours. In winter I keep her in a longer puppy cut. She has very nice fur and none of these cuts have damaged it.


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## Ltartof (Sep 17, 2018)

It is true, they have beautiful coats, and it is a breed characteristic. However, I am most interested in comfort for my dog, as I did not get one for the coat per se, but rather personality. If he were MORE comfortable in hot and humid weather with a full coat, I would do it, and maintain it. But if it is torturous, and it would be cooler to have it shorter, then for the sake of the dog, I would do that. The problem is he will not tell me!! HE seems to be more active and playful when it is in a shorter puppy cut.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

ShamaMama said:


> This is the second article that davetgabby posted:
> 
> https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/why-you-shouldnt-shave-your-dog-in-summer/
> 
> ...


How did you post these beautiful photos inside your comment section? :grin2: Thanks for the help?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Heather's said:


> Our groomer has Pomeranians. She said cutting the coat will forever destroy it because it changes the texture. I remember a few years ago a groomer here on HF shaved her Havanese. She then posted monthly pictures of the dogs coat for one year. It was interesting watching the growth of the coat.


There is a HUGE difference between double coated, shedding breeds and a Havanese coat. While our breed is supposed to have an udercoat, they do NOT have a harsh outer coat that is shed seasonally. So the article about not cutting "double coated breeds" really do not pertain to ours. While there are very good reasons not to SHAVE any dog for other than medical purposes, cutting a Havanese coat down, then letting them grow back out does not typically damage the coat long-term. It just takes a LONG time (up to 3 years!) for it to reach full length again.

And a Havanese should never have its undercoat stripped as you would a northern breed.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Ltartof said:


> It is true, they have beautiful coats, and it is a breed characteristic. However, I am most interested in comfort for my dog, as I did not get one for the coat per se, but rather personality. If he were MORE comfortable in hot and humid weather with a full coat, I would do it, and maintain it. But if it is torturous, and it would be cooler to have it shorter, then for the sake of the dog, I would do that. The problem is he will not tell me!! HE seems to be more active and playful when it is in a shorter puppy cut.


In terms of "damage", any damage would be talking about a show coat. I would assume, if you are even contemplating a puppy cut, that showing is not even a consideration. So it really makes no difference at all. Do what seems best for him and for you! Neutering/spaying changes coat texture a lot more than cutting a Havanese coat.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Mikki, you can drag photos into your reply just like you can drag photos into your post. You're welcome!

Mudpuppymama, I think cuts are usually fine. I only worry about double-coated dogs who are shaved.

Ltartof, did you read any of the articles referred to earlier in this thread? It is not torturous for a double-coated dog to be kept in a full coat. They are not cooler with a short coat. Your dog cannot tell you how he feels, but the articles can explain the difference between a long coat and a shaved coat to you. As far as your dog seeming more active and playful when he is in a puppy cut, see the end of Dr. Becker's article below:

_Consider Your Dog's Personality When Deciding Whether to Shave

Groomers, animal welfare workers, veterinarians like me, and many pet guardians have seen two very different scenarios play out after a dog has been shaved.

The first scenario involves a dog who has been shaved for a good reason -- for example, a raging skin infection -- who reacts badly to having all her hair removed. Collies, in particular, often behave as though someone has stripped away their superpowers. They become depressed, upset, and even sad.

The flip side of the coin is a dog that enjoys having his coat removed. After being shaved, these dogs behave as though they've been set free from some kind of hair bondage! They act happier and friskier. As the groomer wields her razor, the dog comes alive, which is a really interesting phenomenon! However, it's important to note that these dogs aren't happy because they're cooler. They simply prefer short hair just as many humans do.

I'm a fan of "puppy cuts" for these dogs, which involves removing the long, annoying hair, but stops well short of a full buzz cut._

https://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2014/05/12/pet-coat-shaving.aspx


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I think that “damage” isn’t really a fair word. Disrupting the cycles of hair growth and cutting the hair blunt is going to make the coat feel different compared to a naturally grown coat, but it’s still going to be soft- it’s not like stubble from shaving  if there’s a reason to cut the coat, it’s going to be healthier after cutting. I imagine it must take a very long time for the coat to grow not just in length, but to also return to its natural state with regard to growth cycles. It would be terrible if a groomer didn’t warn on this for someone intending to grow a long coat, but it doesn’t mean it Havanese haircut is going to be a hack job that destroys his coat for life 

I wouldn’t know personally because I grow mine as long as I can but he never gets long enough for the coat on his back to start to lay over before I have to cut him again. I do wish there was a way to texturize a Havanese coat while cutting it, the way bulk in human hair can be texturized by point cutting or slithering with the scissors instead of cutting it blunt or with thinning shears. I think it would look more natural. I have done it a bit, but I understand the different lengths, even subtle, can just encourage matting, and I don’t dare experiment too much.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

krandall said:


> There is a HUGE difference between double coated, shedding breeds and a Havanese coat. While our breed is supposed to have an udercoat, they do NOT have a harsh outer coat that is shed seasonally. So the article about not cutting "double coated breeds" really do not pertain to ours. While there are very good reasons not to SHAVE any dog for other than medical purposes, cutting a Havanese coat down, then letting them grow back out does not typically damage the coat long-term. It just takes a LONG time (up to 3 years!) for it to reach full length again.
> 
> And a Havanese should never have its undercoat stripped as you would a northern breed.


Thank you, Karen, for the clarification about the Havanese double coat.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Ltartof said:


> It is true, they have beautiful coats, and it is a breed characteristic. However, I am most interested in comfort for my dog, as I did not get one for the coat per se, but rather personality. If he were MORE comfortable in hot and humid weather with a full coat, I would do it, and maintain it. But if it is torturous, and it would be cooler to have it shorter, then for the sake of the dog, I would do that. The problem is he will not tell me!! HE seems to be more active and playful when it is in a shorter puppy cut.


Mia seems happier with her shorter hair, along with the shorter grooming sessions and fewer baths that go along with it. After I trim her, she gets the zoomies like she has been freed of something. She also dries out more quickly after coming in from the wet grass. It is super hot and humid here and the grass is sopping wet morning and evening.


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## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

mudpuppymama said:


> Mia seems happier with her shorter hair, along with the shorter grooming sessions and fewer baths that go along with it. After I trim her, she gets the zoomies like she has been freed of something. She also dries out more quickly after coming in from the wet grass. It is super hot and humid here and the grass is sopping wet morning and evening.


Scout had a beautiful long coat. I never thought of him getting a haircut. It was terribly upsetting when it had to be cut for his leg surgeries. Then there was my wrist surgery. Between the two of us it had to go. Anyway...I really like the short coat and he does too! He loves to run and play with Truffles now. The haircut is definitely more work for the groomer. Long coat memories. :smile2:


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## Ltartof (Sep 17, 2018)

Good point, as so many aspects of dog care, we have to look to our actual dog. I do think he is in the latter category, he seems to love having shorter hair. For sure we are not interested in showing, and we leave the coat longer for the Chicago winter, but in general we keep him shorter. Never a buzz cut, have not needed to get down to the skin.


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