# Pen or crate?



## Lisa Tintner (May 4, 2017)

So my puppy is 5 months on Monday. She originally was left in her crate or pen when I left and this was pretty good she did good about 2 - 3 hours I brought her home at 11 weeks in her crate. I used to have her in her pen when I worked at home and was working on being in the crate when I left and she was in the front room. However around 16 weeks old we had robbery in our building and had a bunch of crime in our neighborhood and it led me to not want to leave for a while as well as I was sick for about two weeks. So essentially after not leaving her alone for 2 weeks and bringing her everywhere with me i knew i had to get back to training or she would never be ok alone. She is always ok alone in the pen or crate as long as I’m here. So since she was 19 weeks (the last 3 weeks)i have had her in an xpen and leaving for 2 hours in am and 2 hours in pm. Based on recommendation from the trainer. She sleeps for about 1 hour 15 min then she wakes up and cries and cries and paws. She settles every so often Like cries on and off and paws the pen for like 30-45 minutes then will go back to sleep a while (which could be anywhere from 30 seconds to 30 minutes) she’s very confident, isn’t afraid of anything or anyone (Dog or people) she’s very curious so the trainer says the crying is trying to get her way so just leave her. 

Now I realized I have a situation - essentially I plan to have her in the pen or crate when I leave always. I feel better knowing she’s safe. She’s now been being trained in the pen with the crate in the pen with the door off but she hardly goes in there. She does sleep in her crate with door closed all night from 9pm -7:30am and rarely has to get up to pee. 

So here is my dilemma. I have to go to my family for Xmas and she’s gonna have to be in the crate if i leavd my moms or my brothers and started thinking about if someone ever had to pet sit her and I really want her to be used to being in her crate when I leave as I can’t carry the pen everywhere. So now that I’ve been training her in the xpen do I just switch to the crate? I would like her to be able to use both so that if I leave for a while she can be in the pen or crate. I just don’t know if it’s nlh best to pick one method or can they be trained to use both. I feel like I need to stick to the crate so she always knows that’s where she goes whether she’s at home or someone else’s house. But now she’s 5 months and I have spent the last 3 weeks training her in the pen. Can I just switch to the crate or am I now going to stop my progress. 

Thoughts on what I should do.


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## Cmward (Jun 28, 2017)

With my pups I’ve always set up their crate inside of their playpen. I leave the door of the crate open to the playpen almost all the time after they have learned to accept being in the crate. I keep the crate a happy, fun place by giving them treats in there putting a stuffed Kong in there and giving their favorite chews in the crate. If you switch her to being in the crate in a positive way she should be fine. Make it comfy for her and don’t force her in it all at once, try feeding her in it and treating her in it so she associates it with good things happening in there.


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## Henry&Kate (Mar 29, 2017)

I have two crates for Henry. I took the door off one and that one I keep in his expen. He has a bed in the expen as well. Sometimes he'll go in to his crate, mostly if he wants to sleep. But if he's in his pen and just wants to watch what's going on in the kitchen or play with toys, he'll use the bed. The second crate is in my bedroom and that's where he sleeps at night. So he's comfortable in both the crate and the expen.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

I don't have any good ideas other than research old threads in the forum. Good luck! Know that people are probably thinking of you even if they don't reply . . .


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## Lisa Tintner (May 4, 2017)

That’s an interesting thought. Why wouldn’t people reply?? If they are thinking of me? lol


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

They might be busy on a Saturday before Christmas, or they might have the initial reaction I had which was, "I don't have time to read and respond to a long, challenging post right now," or they might think, "One of the experts here will surely reply so I don't need to . . ." 

I think you could probably switch back to your crate focus without too many ill effects. Regarding the whining after 75 minutes, you might want to go back to the basics of Separation Anxiety prevention. Make coming and going as low key as possible. Confine your dog, then putz around ignoring her for a while before leaving for a short time without saying goodbye, then return without saying hello and putz around a bit before taking her out to potty only if she can sit calmly before you pick her up or open the door to her crate/pen. Gradually increase time away while interspersing short times so she never really knows how long you'll be gone but figures out you'll always return.

Hope that helps.


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## Lisa Tintner (May 4, 2017)

Thanks for responding. I think the piece I am missing is changing up the time. And adding more timewhere I go long and short. Thank you that helped. The rest I’m doing. 

Also - thanks for the tip on crate in pen and outside pen - I’m doing that too. 

So for the person who recommended can you also leave your baby if you go somewhere else? 

My challenge is I have to go to my moms On Xmas. I’m teaching her the pen but she does sleep in her crate at night. I will have to leave my moms house when she’s in her crate and no one will be at my moms house. Is it ok that she’s never been to someone’s house before and be left in the crate at 5 months? Any recommendations on what I should do so she isnt traumatized. I told my family I don’t know how i can come if I have to leave her in the crate at my moms for like two hours for church. Should i just leave her in the crate and let her cry in a new place? I feel so bad like it will be too scary.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

You have one week. Seems like you could work on getting her to enjoy her crate a little each day to make it less scary when you leave her for two hours a week from now. Do you have a clicker? If so, click at the moment she does what you want, then follow with a treat. The clicker marks the behavior, and the treat reinforces. Without a clicker, you could just say something short to represent a click (Yes! or Take! or tongue click)

Click/Treat when she moves toward the crate.
Then when she touches it.
Then when she puts a paw in.
Then when she goes in.
Then when she turns and looks at you.
Then when she stays in there and looks at you.
Then when she stays in there when you take one step away.
Two steps.
Etc.
When she lets you close door then open right back up.
Close door, count to one.
Two.
Three.
Lock door, open right back up.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.

Move crate to different part of your house.
Take crate into neighbor's house.

There are all sorts of things you can do in this week to make her feel more excited about her crate.

Also, figure out what treat she's wild about that she can have only in the crate. A pig's ear, for example. That could distract her from your departure and keep her busy for part/most/all of the time you're at church. A stuffed kong could work too, although I never figured out what exactly to put in a kong to make it last without being too filling. (Others?)

Please let us know how the week goes and how it goes at Christmas. (Also, can you get there early to practice with the crate before you leave for church?)


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

How is it going? Merry Christmas!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

For me, it's not one or the other. I want my dogs to settle and relax, whether they are in their crates or gated in my office. (We don't use an ex-pen after they are fully potty trained, but my office is not large, and contains toys, beds, a litter box and water bottle. SO they have everything they need)

They also all settle contentedly in their crates, as that is where they are confined at shows and trials, in hotel rooms, or other places when we travel.


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## Lisa Tintner (May 4, 2017)

Hi there thanks for asking and checking in. I went to my moms and she did no different there maybe a little better there vs at my house. No idea why. Now we are home and she’s having same melt downs at home. She did cry in the crate when at Moms when I left on and off the entire time but like I said no different than at home. She will cry 3 min stop 5. Or cry 10 and stop 10. Cry 5 min and stop 1-2 min. It’s never same. Today she cried on and off for 45 minutes and now she’s been sleeping 10 min. She regularly wakes up after 10 min or so or 20 and cries and digs more. I just wonder when is this going to stop. It’s very stressful to think she does this every time I’m gone. Most crate training sites say a dog after a few days gets that you aren’t coming back. I do everything I’m supposed to. Don’t make a big deal about leaving or coming back. Give her kong and let her enter on her own. I leave chew toy she doesn’t care. I don’t know if pen or crate is better. She either is standing doing the pawing and crying or laying down. Depending on the pen or crate. I feel like a failure. She’s six months January 18. I don’t get it. I don’t want to never be able to leave. The only thing is the time I leavd isn’t consistent It could be 9am or 11am or 2pm. But that’s beciase this is how my normal life is. Appointments vary. If anyone has any supporting words I would love to hear them.


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## Lisa Tintner (May 4, 2017)

Given you work with dogs for show. At six months would you expect them to still be acting out like this. I worry about stomach issues or Hge from stress w this crying. When do they grow out of it. I keep Waitinf and don’t want to give up cuz I want to travel with her. But with this yelling I never could.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lisa Tintner said:


> Given you work with dogs for show. At six months would you expect them to still be acting out like this. I worry about stomach issues or Hge from stress w this crying. When do they grow out of it. I keep Waitinf and don't want to give up cuz I want to travel with her. But with this yelling I never could.


I think you need to find a local, positive trainer to help you get past this. I don't know what to tell you. My dogs learned to stay home either crated or in a pen (or as adults gated in my office) very early. However, they never had the big gap with me with them 24/7 the way your pup has. So their experience wasn't the same. Every dog is an individual, too. So it's hard, long distance, over the internet, to give you good advice. I'd really suggest a local trainer to help you!


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

I agree with Karen. We can give you support, but a local trainer might be able to give you serious HELP. I have to believe you'll be able to get through this. My DH and I feel for you. Shama says, "Relax, Little G. It will be OK."


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## Lisa Tintner (May 4, 2017)

I have a trainer. Positive reinforcement. She’s coming again Friday. I’m doing everything she is saying. Maybe I need to leave Longer like 4 hours / every day - I’ve been doing anywhere from 1 -2.5 hours max twice a day. She had said leave 2x a day for two hours. I did that 4 weeks. Over holiday it was sometimes less but I left every day for at least an hour. I’m at a loss. I really hope she outgrows this. My Vet is a behaviorist too. She said by 18 months you know what you have. I mean she settles in between and she’s very independent so I’m at a loss. She doesn’t sleep next to me on couch she always goes off by herself. My maltese used to always want
To be next to me. I know dogs w real sep anxiety usually are hyper when u return - she looks happy for a min but I ignore her so she goes off and gets her toys when I’m home - she’s not following me or being crazy like some people explain dogs w sep anxiety. So does this sound more like power struggle to you? They said just keep doing it and stick with it. Let her cry and don’t go back until she’s quiet. So I do that. I just wonder how long. She’s a smart dog. I wish she would just realize it’s not working.


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## Lisa Tintner (May 4, 2017)

I am with you I gotta believe one day she will get it but I’m losing faith. I leave and try not to watch the camera. The prob is I don’t have any appts right now. So I don’t really have to go anywhere. So I’m faking leaving going down to business center just to keep teaching her so I’m not home always. So I don’t know. She is equal in pen or crate. I think. I just want her to be ok so I can go to hotels with her and travel.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

My DH and I can't understand if you're saying that you tried the 2x a day for two hours for four weeks or if you're saying that you tried anywhere from 1 -2.5 hours max twice a day for four weeks. For lack of better ideas, I would do EXACTLY what your trainer suggests. My DH is wondering if you vary your departure and arrival routines so Gianna can't know the exact moment of your "long" departure? Like get keys and purse but then don't walk out the door right away. Like open door and garage door but then return to putz in kitchen even while ignoring Gianna. My DH thinks the pre-departure and post-return ignoring are key. Upon return, puppy only gets attention when you're ready to give it and when she's quiet with four paws on the floor. Hang in there.


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## Lisa Tintner (May 4, 2017)

So for first 4 weeks did 2 hours 2x a day. Give or take 15-30 min. Trainer was fine with that. I do Vary the leaving times. Also she is always calm when I return. My pre departure and post return is uneventful. Calm. Hide the shake of keys. Also pick up keys when I’m cooking as trainer said. But don’t leave. She’s quiet first 2 -30 min when I leave she goes in gets her chicken treat and Kong then she realizes I left and is pissed. She doesn’t eat rest of kong when she figures out I’m gone. She’s distracted a few min at best - she does sleep intermittently. I would say half time she’s crying half time she’s resting. 3 min on 3 min off 25 min crying 20 min sleeping. Varying. I wonder what goes on in her head. She can cry 15 min and sleep 15 then up 3 crying and down 2 sleeping and up 15 and down 2. It’s weird. That’s why trainer doesn’t think it’s full blown sep anxiety cuz she settles inbetween. I’m so defeated.


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Ugh. So sorry.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lisa Tintner said:


> I have a trainer. Positive reinforcement. She's coming again Friday. I'm doing everything she is saying. Maybe I need to leave Longer like 4 hours / every day - I've been doing anywhere from 1 -2.5 hours max twice a day. She had said leave 2x a day for two hours. I did that 4 weeks. Over holiday it was sometimes less but I left every day for at least an hour. I'm at a loss. I really hope she outgrows this. My Vet is a behaviorist too. She said by 18 months you know what you have. I mean she settles in between and she's very independent so I'm at a loss. She doesn't sleep next to me on couch she always goes off by herself. My maltese used to always want
> To be next to me. I know dogs w real sep anxiety usually are hyper when u return - she looks happy for a min but I ignore her so she goes off and gets her toys when I'm home - she's not following me or being crazy like some people explain dogs w sep anxiety. So does this sound more like power struggle to you? They said just keep doing it and stick with it. Let her cry and don't go back until she's quiet. So I do that. I just wonder how long. She's a smart dog. I wish she would just realize it's not working.


There's really no such thing as a "power struggle" with a puppy. Puppies (and dogs) do what works. That said, once a behavior has developed, it can take time and consistency to change the behavior.

I think these are good questions you are raising, and I think, in your situation, I'd be calling the trainer and asking them, rather than waiting until she comes again. If she has a suggestion on how to change things, or thinks you aren't doing exactly what she meant for you to do, you still have a couple of days to try out a new plan and report back to her on Friday. I think it would be wrong for anyone on the forum to second-guess you or the trainer, where it is the two of you who are actually seeing her behavior and needing to respond to it in person.

You DO have our COMPLETE sympathy, though! We've all been so something annoying during either puppyhood or bringing up our children that has made us want to tear our hair out! It does get better.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lisa Tintner said:


> I am with you I gotta believe one day she will get it but I'm losing faith. I leave and try not to watch the camera. The prob is I don't have any appts right now. So I don't really have to go anywhere. So I'm faking leaving going down to business center just to keep teaching her so I'm not home always. So I don't know. She is equal in pen or crate. I think. I just want her to be ok so I can go to hotels with her and travel.


I know you feel like you are in the middle of something never-ending right now, but she IS still very young. Since she doesn't seem to hurt herself, I think my advice would be to just turn off the camera/video and not watch.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Lisa Tintner said:


> So for first 4 weeks did 2 hours 2x a day. Give or take 15-30 min. Trainer was fine with that. I do Vary the leaving times. Also she is always calm when I return. My pre departure and post return is uneventful. Calm. Hide the shake of keys. Also pick up keys when I'm cooking as trainer said. But don't leave. She's quiet first 2 -30 min when I leave she goes in gets her chicken treat and Kong then she realizes I left and is pissed. She doesn't eat rest of kong when she figures out I'm gone. She's distracted a few min at best - she does sleep intermittently. I would say half time she's crying half time she's resting. 3 min on 3 min off 25 min crying 20 min sleeping. Varying. I wonder what goes on in her head. She can cry 15 min and sleep 15 then up 3 crying and down 2 sleeping and up 15 and down 2. It's weird. That's why trainer doesn't think it's full blown sep anxiety cuz she settles inbetween. I'm so defeated.


Please try, in your own mind, to reframe the idea that "she's pissed". She isn't she's a young puppy who hasn't learned the ropes and is HOPING you'll come back if she cries. Panda is two, and if I put her in her crate at bed time and don't turn the lights off to go to sleep IMMEDIATELY, she whimpers under her breath, HOPING that I'll take her back out to snuggle again. (this has never happened, but she still appears to be hoping!  ) I guess I am confident enough in my own ability to handle this, that I don't respond to her whimpers. Honestly, I don't care. She's in bed, she's safe, and she'll see me in the morning. Whether she protests or not is her problem, not mine.

As I said in my other response. I really think the best thing you could do is turn off that monitor and stop worrying so much. Dogs DO pick up on that, no matter how much we try to hide it.

I have an adult son with Generalized Anxiety Disorder. Sometimes he gets himself in a state over things that are not worth the effort. So we play the "What's the WORST thing that could happen" game. We get silly about some of the "worst things". But it puts things in perspective. In this case, if you re out for 2 hours, and you don't even turn that darned monitor on, what's the WORST thing that could happen? She's safe in her carte, and has demonstrated that she is not hurting herself there. So the worst thing that could happen is that you'd come home to an upset puppy. Since that hasn't happened so far (you say she's calm when you get home) that's actually pretty unlikely. As long as she seems relatively settled, I'd keep SLOWLY increasing the amount of time you are out, and also varying how long you are out and when you go out. Keep that monitor off. If you MUST check on her, do it for a moment just to reassure yourself of her PHYSICAL safety, whether she's crying or not. Then turn the thing back off again.

After hearing from both you and other people who have used these monitors, I have to say that I'm VERY glad that I never even had one!


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