# Sticky  What to ask for? -- breeder credentials and health checks?



## HavAnother

My family is looking to adopt our first Havanese, and I'm new to this forum.

I'm having trouble digesting all the information re: advice on what to look for in a breeder, health checks, etc. Could someone please boil all this down? Here's some questions I have:

-- Does a breeder have to be listed on HCA's directory to be considered 'reputable'?

-- Which health tests do all of you feel are necessary, and which ones are reasonable for a breeder to *not* perform?

-- Is it reasonable to ask to visit a breeder's home, before any 'down payment' is made? I've never dealt with a breeder before, and the idea of dealing with one remotely makes me nervous.

-- What age can a pup be adopted? I have one breeder with a few puppies left that are 16 weeks or more old. Others tell me that if I don't adopt at 9-10 weeks, then the puppy won't "bond" with us correctly. Which is correct?

Thanks for all advice, this is all a little overwhelming. 

Stuart


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## CacheHavs

HavAnother said:


> My family is looking to adopt our first Havanese, and I'm new to this forum.
> 
> I'm having trouble digesting all the information re: advice on what to look for in a breeder, health checks, etc. Could someone please boil all this down? Here's some questions I have:
> 
> -- Does a breeder have to be listed on HCA's directory to be considered 'reputable'?
> 
> -- Which health tests do all of you feel are necessary, and which ones are reasonable for a breeder to *not* perform?
> 
> -- Is it reasonable to ask to visit a breeder's home, before any 'down payment' is made? I've never dealt with a breeder before, and the idea of dealing with one remotely makes me nervous.
> 
> -- What age can a pup be adopted? I have one breeder with a few puppies left that are 16 weeks or more old. Others tell me that if I don't adopt at 9-10 weeks, then the puppy won't "bond" with us correctly. Which is correct?
> 
> Thanks for all advice, this is all a little overwhelming.
> 
> Stuart


You are already asking some very important questions, and I will try to break them down for you as well as give you more that you will need to ask.



> -- Does a breeder have to be listed on HCA's directory to be considered 'reputable'?


No. There are many reputable breeders out there that for maybe one reason or another choose not to be a member of HCA, how ever even the breeders that are listed on the HCA website, can be shady in some spots that you may not approve of. So the be advice that I can offer on this is to always do your homework. You want to know that you feel comfortable with the breeder you choose as they should become a life time support and friend.



> -- Which health tests do all of you feel are necessary, and which ones are reasonable for a breeder to *not* perform?


There are four (4) test that are required in order for a breeder to get a CHIC# on their dog which are- BAER (hearing) CERF (eyes, yearly) Hips, and Patellas, however I believe that any and all thest that can be perform should be. I also do Heart, Elbows, and LCP's, and on the occasion bile acids. IMO they all should be performed on the breeders breeding stock and the puppy in which you go home with should also be started with their health testing. My pups go home with their BAER and CERF already done.



> -- Is it reasonable to ask to visit a breeder's home, before any 'down payment' is made? I've never dealt with a breeder before, and the idea of dealing with one remotely makes me nervous.


Absolutely! your breeder should be welcoming you in to see the puppies and the parents (at least mom and the dads are not always on the breeders premises) You should be able to see where you puppy has been raised and how. ex. are they raise in the home with the family and under foot, or are they being raise in another room away from the family with little socialization, or are they being housed out in kennels.



> -- What age can a pup be adopted? I have one breeder with a few puppies left that are 16 weeks or more old. Others tell me that if I don't adopt at 9-10 weeks, then the puppy won't "bond" with us correctly. Which is correct?


Each breeder is different in how they work things, most reputable breeders let their babies go at about 12 weeks, however a puppy younger than 9 weeks should really stay with its mother and sibblings longer. Between the 8 to 10 week mark the puppies learn a lot from both their mother and siblings, things like biting, and when to much is to much and respect.
I feel that 11-12 weeks is a good age for the puppies to go to their new homes, and no there is usually no problems with a 12 week old puppy bonding to its new family.

The rest I will put into a new post......


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## CacheHavs

Here are some common "Red Flags" To look for:


"Puppies come from champion lines" is basically meaningless. I've seen this to mean everything from one great-great-great grandsire having his championship in an oops breeding to a handful of championed dogs in a pedigree.

2. "My dogs are health tested" but there is little or no health testing documented at offa.org 
The dogs are probably not health tested.

3. Similarly to #2, "My dogs are health tested, but I couldn't afford to pay to have all the results posted on OFA's web site." The major expense is in getting the tests done! The fee to submit the results is pretty minimal. If the breeder could afford to do the health testing, there is no reason they couldn't shell out the nominal fee to have the results posted.


Claims that there have never been any health issues in their lines, without qualification that the reality is that they could crop up and that this was in issue the breeder was actively conscious of.

2. They would not email me a copy of their standard puppy owner contract, even when I asked for this several times.

-"My vet has thoroughly checked them over".

-Breeds more than one type of dog.

-Has many litters available, more than 1-2 at a time.

-SELLS PUPS ONLINE.

-Discourages home visits.

-Doesn't stress puppy socialization.

-Advertises in newspaper, flyers, etc.

-Doesn't make you sign a spay/neuter contract.

-Not American Kennel Club (AKC) or Canadian Kennel Club (CKC) registered parents and pups.

-Tells you that you have to PAY EXTRA for registration.

-Offers to ship your puppy - not always a huge red flag, but I really don't like this.

-Knows nothing of health testing or says they health test but you can't find the results.

-Doesn't offer a no questions asked return policy. (ie. a breeder should require you to return the puppy to them if you can no longer care for it)

-Doesn't promptly return phone calls and emails. (doesn't necessarily mean a bad breeder, but if you're a new puppy owner you are going to have questions and the breeder should be there for you to give you answers)

-Breeder's dogs don't live in their home.

-Have a backyard (or acreage) filled with kennels.

-Charges too little. (IMO, under $1500 - just remember, an expensive Hav doesn't mean it comes from a GOOD breeder, but usually reputable breeders are on the pricier side)

-Breeder does not show their dogs.

-Claims championships not from AKC or CKC.

-breeder claiming to have "rare" colors or teacup or toy sized Havanese

-Champions are only as good as who is producing them. A judge should be withholding points from a dog who is not championship quality, but frankly, THE BREEDER needs to be knowledgeable, honest, and not kennel blind and only walk into the ring with a champion quality dog to begin with! Dog shows are useful but you've gotta know what you've got. It's a two way street. There's a big difference between "my puppy is the most beautiful dog in the world!" and "my dog is show quality representation of the breed." If you are unable to genuinely tell the difference, you've got a lot more to learn before you should be breeding or showing anything.

Also, Back-to-back breedings. What I generally see done is that, assuming they're not taking a lot out of her, everything goes well, etc, whether you breed her in back to back heat cycles with a year off, or breeding-season-breeding-season is sort of six of one, half dozen of the other.

RED FLAG: Any breeder who thinks everything they have ever produced is Show Quality! Sometimes you might luck out and get a whole litter of show quality puppies, but more often than not, you get one or two if you're lucky. Sometimes you don't get any. I guarantee you no one has ever produced all show quality dogs - they are just not being honest (to you or more likely, to themselves!) about what they have.

RED FLAG: A bitch that is bred before two (end of story). 
RED FLAG: A bitch that is bred after age 6 or so (depending on her health, how many litters she's had in the past, a year or two later _might_ be ok). 
RED FLAG: A bitch that is bred every heat cycle (2x a year) for more than one year on, one year off. 
RED FLAG: A breeder who has more than a couple of litters a year. Think about it by the number of puppies: 4 litters in this breed is often 15 or so puppies per year! That's a lot of dogs being brought into the world in a short time. Also, each breeding should be a masterwork of research and planning; it'd be hard to appropriately research and plan more an a handful a year.
RED FLAG: A breeder who has more than two litters at once - litters are a lot of work, and trying to juggle more than two is pretty hard to do and get puppies socialized and taken care of properly.
REMEMBER: A "back yard breeder" might only breed one litter per year, raise it with love in their kitchen, and try to find a good home for each pup. But they don't do any or enough health testing; they don't have a solid knowledge of trying to preserve or improve the breed; they don't have that strong sense of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for the breed and for each individual! 
REMEMBER: Pet stores know people know about puppy mills. I've seen lots of well meaning people buy from pet store because the pet store said, "Don't worry, we buy from breeders." But I assure you, no GOOD breeder sells a puppy anywhere without knowing exactly where and to whom it is going, and they if something goes wrong they will get it back!

GREEN FLAG: A good breeder will interview you right back! If they are happy to toss a pup in your car or on a plane because you wanted one, seemed nice, and could pay, it's a red flag. If they ask you about your life style, hours you work, members of the household, what your expectations and plans for the dog are... great! Don't be offended by this. They are trying to decide if you have a realistic expectation and ideas about owning a dog, if this breed is a good match, and what personality will best suit you. Of course, they shouldn't be rude to you, but you should get the idea that they really, really care about where their puppies are going.

GREEN FLAG: A breeder who not only loves their dogs and cares about their puppies and where they end up, but feels they are a guardian of their breed. They bear a massive amount of personal responsibility to preserve and improve the look and function of their breed, to ensure each dog they bring into this world has the best possible temperament, the least possible likelihood of developing genetic disorders, and goes to the best possible home. You just can't do that in high volume.

A good Breeder should be a resource for you forever.

Hope this helps.

Best,


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## dbeech

This is fantastic information for anyone looking to get a puppy. Thanks for taking the time and effort to put it together.

I really think it should become a "stickie" in the puppy forum.


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## HavAnother

*Thanks Sooo Much -- great info? Age to Adopt?*

Heather -- this is such great information -- I can't thank you enough.

What about the issue of adopting a dog that's 4mos old, or 6 mos, or 1 year? Obviously, people generally adopt dogs of all ages, and have wonderful experiences -- so, is there any "disdvantage" that you can think of to adopting a slightly older puppy, or young adult? Any 'bonding issues', etc?

How about advantges, for that matter?

Thanks,

Stuart


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## Brady's mom

Stuart, I wanted to respond to your last question with my experience with dogs who are not puppies. My Cassie is a rescue who has been with me for a year. She is 3 1/2 years old now and is as bonded to me as my other 2 havs that I got as puppies. My Mom purchased a 1 1/2 year old havanese a few years ago from a wonderful breeder. He was exactly what she said he was. He bonded to my Mom immediately. It took him a few months to completely come out of his shell, but you would never know he hasn't been with her since he was a puppy. He was a perfect fit. So, getting a puppy is great, but getting an older puppy or dog can be great too


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## dbeech

HavAnother said:


> Heather -- this is such great information -- I can't thank you enough.
> 
> What about the issue of adopting a dog that's 4mos old, or 6 mos, or 1 year? Obviously, people generally adopt dogs of all ages, and have wonderful experiences -- so, is there any "disdvantage" that you can think of to adopting a slightly older puppy, or young adult? Any 'bonding issues', etc?
> 
> How about advantges, for that matter?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Stuart


I got both of my dogs at around a year and they immediately bonded to me and my family. Both are very, sweet loving dogs. My boy has a more reserved personality with strangers, but that is his temperment. I know both dogs had been well socialized in their previous environment. If you do get an older dog, ask a lot questions about their background.


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## davetgabby

Heather, that is excellent. Did you just do this recently. This should be required reading to join this forum. JMO


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## davetgabby

HavAnother said:


> Heather -- this is such great information -- I can't thank you enough.
> 
> What about the issue of adopting a dog that's 4mos old, or 6 mos, or 1 year? Obviously, people generally adopt dogs of all ages, and have wonderful experiences -- so, is there any "disdvantage" that you can think of to adopting a slightly older puppy, or young adult? Any 'bonding issues', etc?
> 
> How about advantges, for that matter?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Stuart


Welcome Stuart. Thanks for asking questions. Definitely there are pluses and minuses to getting a puppy at four or more months. The biggest issue is whether the puppy was socialized. If it wasn't you could have some problematic issues. The primary and most critical learning period ends around four months. You have to know what the dog is like at that age, and be willing to work on any deficiencies.


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## Tigers Mommy

We purchased Tiger in 3-2008. (The Breeders name will not be mentioned) Until he became older, I never had to defend his breed purity. As a puppy, he really looked like all the other Hav pictures. My argument has always been that he has AKC papers and these papers show that his parents and grandparents are Pure Havanese. Now I have been told that the papers do not prove anything. That a dishonest breeder could assign an unused pure bred litter number to a litter that is mixed. And there is no way to challenge this except to have DNA tests done. As Tiger gets older, he is really beginning to look more and more like a Bechon. I have actually given up and I have him groomed like one. I have had a couple of groomers laugh when I argued that he was an AKC papered Havanese. Tiger weights 22 lbs, not fat either, he most defiantly is over the height limit and his hair is Kinky like a Poodle or Bechon. His hair grows out but will not lay down for its life...it just stands straight out from where it is growing...He looks like a big Poof Ball. His whiskers wont grow out either, they break off really easy. Now I purchased him believing I had a good breeder and maybe I did, but we did not go to the kennel. I will admit now I wish I had. I truly had no concern at the time, but now after meeting our other Havs breeder, my confidence in Tiger’s breeder is totally different. We met the spouse and daughter half way instead of going to the Kennel. Do the AKC papers prove that he is truly a pure bred Hav? Or can they be fudged and possibly be false? Other Hav owners have tried to reassure me that not all Havs look like our Beau, but I don’t see others that look like Tiger on the forum. The most frustrating part of this is I paid twice as much for Tiger than what we did for Beau. And Beau’s Mommy is becoming a Winner out there in the rings of the Havanese breed. Just thought maybe someone could give me an insight on this question or concern. Don’t get me wrong, I love my Tiger, but I am just tired of arguing or defending his breed history.:suspicious:


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## mamacjt

Is that a picture of Tiger on your icon? If so, a 100% bichon NEVER will have any black hair....or grey either for that matter. On occasion, there might be some beige, but more often than not, it disappears as the dog ages. If your dog has any color, it is probably a Hav and not a bichon (or perhaps a mix of both). The reason his coat doesn't split and poofs instead is probably because it's so thick. As far as his weight, it's a bit bigger than the average bichon too. Did his breeder also breed and raise bichon frises? It wouldn't be impossible for an accident to happen that his daddy might be a bichon......but, if he's your pet and you love him, does it really matter anymore?


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## TilliesMom

OR he could be a curly coated hav!??


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## Becky Chittenden

1. Not all reputable breeders belong to HCA for a number of reasons, but I'd start there and, as one replied, not all HCA members are "perfect". For a good reason, I got my first Havanese over 8 years ago, but have only been an HCA member a little over a year.
2. minimum: BAER, CERF, patellas, hips and elbows.
3. Not unreasonable, however, I have a prospective new owner coming to meet the mother to be (and relatives) less than a week before whelping. I'm undecided if I want "foot germs" from who knows where in my house right before whelping ( what if they carry a "bad bug" that hits my dogs) or should we meet in the yard and I bring the dogs out to meet them. I don't take deposits before the pup is old enough to decide if that family is right for them.
I agree 12 weeks is ideal, but never before 10


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## Becky Chittenden

Forgot, if the avatar of the dog, wondering about curly coat is a Hav, is the one pictured, I'd say yes. I have a curly and have no doubts about her and she is a champion that finished her championship in a very few shows.


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## Tigers Mommy

mamacjt said:


> Is that a picture of Tiger on your icon? If so, a 100% bichon NEVER will have any black hair....or grey either for that matter. On occasion, there might be some beige, but more often than not, it disappears as the dog ages. If your dog has any color, it is probably a Hav and not a bichon (or perhaps a mix of both). The reason his coat doesn't split and poofs instead is probably because it's so thick. As far as his weight, it's a bit bigger than the average bichon too. Did his breeder also breed and raise bichon frises? It wouldn't be impossible for an accident to happen that his daddy might be a bichon......but, if he's your pet and you love him, does it really matter anymore?


My understanding is she only breeds Havanese. Tigers mommy's named on his papers is still on her web site but his daddy is no longer on the site. Since I purchased tiger there hasn't been any response from the breeder on my questions. Ive given up on getting answers from her. I'm trying to avoiding this part of this subject cuz a few of the forum members have also purchased or they know of someone that has bought from this breeder and one member defends her extensively. But no one has stepped forward to assure me that they have been to this breeders place and that it is a reputable breeder. Anyway yes my profile pic is Tiger. He was about 2 in that picture. His papers say red sable. His curls are as tight as a spring. We call them boing boings. That's why the hair won't lay down . I just want to know his papers are legit. Can they be falsified? Some of the looks I have gotten are like I'm an idiot to believe akc papers are a guarantee of what you have in a breed.


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## Tigers Mommy

Here is a more recent pic of Tiger. This is how we have him groomed now. Otherwise he looks rediculus. A Huge Poof Ball! You can also see how he stands on his twisted leg too...again, our vet is not concerned, but it looks goofy.


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## HalleBerry

What about AKC DNA? If the father was a popular sire, the AKC would have required the sire's owner to have his DNA on file.... and you could at least prove that he is his father's son.


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## krandall

Tigers Mommy said:


> Here is a more recent pic of Tiger. This is how we have him groomed now. Otherwise he looks rediculus. A Huge Poof Ball! You can also see how he stands on his twisted leg too...again, our vet is not concerned, but it looks goofy.


The crooked leg is something that, unfortunately, is still in a lot of Havanese lines, and the reason that a prospective puppy buyer should insist on soaps of both parents AND the puppy.

As far as his curly hair is concerned, that, too, is in a lot of Havanese lines. There is a DNA test for it, and breeders CAN breed away from it if they choose. But it is not outside the breed standard, so some breeders don't care if they produce curly puppies. In fact, I suspect these are the dogs that are most easily corded, and some breeders prefer that look. I've seen a few where even their EARS are tightly curled, and they have to be kept short too.

So I guess the bottom line is that neither of these issues say anything about him not being a purebred Havanese. He may not be the best quality from a conformation standpoint, but as long as he's still got that sweet Havanese temperament, you've got your self a great pet. ...and lots of people keep their Havs cut short, even if they aren't that curly.


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## krandall

HalleBerry said:


> What about AKC DNA? If the father was a popular sire, the AKC would have required the sire's owner to have his DNA on file.... and you could at least prove that he is his father's son.


If this is the dog I'm remembering, The father isn't a "popular" sire. It was a person who had a male dog that she used to produce puppies within her own household.


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## HalleBerry

I think the AKC makes DNA mandatory at more than 7 litters in a lifetime, or more than 3 litters in any one year.... but if it was just somone using their own dog they may well not have qualified. Oh, well.


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## TilliesMom

wow, I don't think I've ever seen legs like that!! It's good that the vet is aware of it, I hope it doesn't cause any pain for your baby!

I think he DOES look like a hav (minus the crooked legs!) just with a curly coat!!

what ever he is he is adorable!!


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## krandall

TilliesMom said:


> wow, I don't think I've ever seen legs like that!! It's good that the vet is aware of it, I hope it doesn't cause any pain for your baby!
> 
> I think he DOES look like a hav (minus the crooked legs!) just with a curly coat!!
> 
> what ever he is he is adorable!!


Unfortunately, there are a lot of crooked legs out there, Tammy.


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## mckennasedona

Tiger is as cute as he can be. What a sweet face.


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## krandall

mckennasedona said:


> Tiger is as cute as he can be. What a sweet face.


That is ABSOLUTELY true!!!


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## Tigers Mommy

Thank you everyone for your answers. I pulled Tiger's certificate and the sire has a DNA number and his grandfather (singular) has one too. He has 2 grandmothers but his mom and dad have the same father. Is that typical? I never noticed that. 

Tiger did come from a breeder. I have never seen her web site without puppies for sale. 

I also see under tigers dads pedigree name is gld prti=golden parti color? But his mothers reads blk irsh pied=? What does that mean? Tigers reads rd sbl prti=red sable parti, Right? 

Now Beau's breeder is a very careful breeder. I met her and have gone to local shows watching her show Beau's mom. She didn't bread her until she had earned her points? I fell in love with his mom Sadie. Beautiful silky black coat. When you pet her head she smiles. I told Tammy the breeder that I had to have one of Sadie's puppies when she bred her. It took over a year before she earned all her point and had puppies. But it was worth the wait. And Beau smiles just like his mommy. It's a reflex caused by the petting around his jaw and ears. But it looks just like they are smiling and/or imitating Elvis. Lol 

Again thank you for the assurance that my tiger is a normal, but a rare or unusual Hav. Lol


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## Tigers Mommy

TilliesMom said:


> wow, I don't think I've ever seen legs like that!! It's good that the vet is aware of it, I hope it doesn't cause any pain for your baby!
> 
> I think he DOES look like a hav (minus the crooked legs!) just with a curly coat!!
> 
> what ever he is he is adorable!!


The vet has assured me that Tiger is not in pain. The leg doesn't slow him down one bit. The groomers try to camouflage it but it only lasts a short while tho. The vet says he thinks Tiger did something when he was a young puppy and damaged his growth plate which has caused the leg to twist or be crooked. Looks goofy tho. Thanks


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## krandall

Tigers Mommy said:


> Thank you everyone for your answers. I pulled Tiger's certificate and the sire has a DNA number and his grandfather (singular) has one too. He has 2 grandmothers but his mom and dad have the same father. Is that typical? I never noticed that.
> 
> Tiger did come from a breeder. I have never seen her web site without puppies for sale.
> 
> I also see under tigers dads pedigree name is gld prti=golden parti color? But his mothers reads blk irsh pied=? What does that mean? Tigers reads rd sbl prti=red sable parti, Right?
> 
> Now Beau's breeder is a very careful breeder. I met her and have gone to local shows watching her show Beau's mom. She didn't bread her until she had earned her points? I fell in love with his mom Sadie. Beautiful silky black coat. When you pet her head she smiles. I told Tammy the breeder that I had to have one of Sadie's puppies when she bred her. It took over a year before she earned all her point and had puppies. But it was worth the wait. And Beau smiles just like his mommy. It's a reflex caused by the petting around his jaw and ears. But it looks just like they are smiling and/or imitating Elvis. Lol
> 
> Again thank you for the assurance that my tiger is a normal, but a rare or unusual Hav. Lol


It isn't unheard of for both parents to have the same sire. It shouldn't be done without good reason, but sometimes a breeder does it when trying to set a particular characteristic.

You've got the gold sable parti and red sable parti right. Black Irish Pied is a mostly black dog with white feet and tail tip, a with chest and a full or partial white collar. They also often have some white ont heir faces. Thinl of th color pattern you see on a Border Collie... That's Irish Pied.


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## Tigers Mommy

krandall said:


> It isn't unheard of for both parents to have the same sire. It shouldn't be done without good reason, but sometimes a breeder does it when trying to set a particular characteristic.
> 
> You've got the gold sable parti and red sable parti right. Black Irish Pied is a mostly black dog with white feet and tail tip, a with chest and a full or partial white collar. They also often have some white ont heir faces. Thinl of th color pattern you see on a Border Collie... That's Irish Pied.


That's interesting. Her coloring to me doesn't match that. I tried to add a pic of her but since I am using my iPad I can't upload pics for some reason. Not sure why. But to me zoey looks like tiger did when he was pre-one year old. I wish I could have figured the pic thing out tho so you could see what I am talking about. Thanks anyway!


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## Tigers Mommy

krandall said:


> It isn't unheard of for both parents to have the same sire. It shouldn't be done without good reason, but sometimes a breeder does it when trying to set a particular characteristic.
> 
> You've got the gold sable parti and red sable parti right. Black Irish Pied is a mostly black dog with white feet and tail tip, a with chest and a full or partial white collar. They also often have some white ont heir faces. Thinl of th color pattern you see on a Border Collie... That's Irish Pied.


Oh Border collie. You mean it looks like they are wearing a shrug? A short sweater? Tiger has that. He looks like he is wearing a very short white sweater. Lol.


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## Tigers Mommy

Again thank you for all your input...I should have gone out and found a previous discussion from a year ago. There was a previous discussion that started in 2010 by a new Hav owner that had similar questions and concerns as I do or did. After reading that discussion more closely. I don't think Tigers parents on the certificate are the ones I was told from the breeders web site. The dog on the web site is not blk irsh pied. I do believe my Tiger is pure but just not quality of the breed. I didn't buy him to breed or show. I got him cuz I fell in love with the breed. Really wanted one that I could carry around like a toy but I didn't get that. And even Beau weighs close to 15 lbs but I think that's partly cuz all of his hair. Lol. I luv my Havs. 2 is all my husband will allow but if I ever had to get another dog again. It will be a Hav. And I now know what to watch for and ask. Lessons learn! Thanks! :croc:


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## Becky Chittenden

I reread this whole thread and have a couple additional comments:
1. One person mentioned it rare to have a like parent in the two dogs being bred. If you read Pat Craig Trotter's book Born to Win  you will realize that that is not uncommon or a bad thing if you have two dogs with strengths you wish to set and might do that for a bunch of generations. Pat is a very success breeder/owner/ handler who, now, is also a judge. Pat's book is not the only one, by successful breeders, that has this close linebreeding/inbreeding view. I've read many. Carmen Battaglia is another. Google them if you want.
2.
As far as the "red flags" go on this or another forum I replied re more than one breed. Myself and a number of other "good" Hav breeders had, for many years, another breed when they fell in love with the Hav and began showing and breeding. That didn't mean they gave up their original breed, just added another. I began in shelties in the early '70's and have them still. I don't, by choice, breed often, and the last sheltie litter I had is now 4 and had 2 and kept them both. I bought my first Hav over 8 years ago and have had a total of 3 litters. There are exceptions to many of the "red flags"
3. breeding back to back without taking a heat or 2 off. I've read extensively on this, been to Dr. Van Hutchison's talks, and talked to a number of other repro specialists. Physiologically, it is better for the bitch not to skip heats, it causes the uterine wall to thicken more than just aging. I, like I mentioned before, don't do much breeding, but if I did I wouldn't skip for the sake of resting the dog.
I probably am venting, but I think the "red flags" are not a close "set in concrete" guide.


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