# Hav puppy is too fat?



## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

Ellie is now just about 25 weeks old. As of today, 1/17, she weighs 8.9 pounds. 

As of 12/27, she weighed 6.11 lbs. 

When she weighed 6.11 lbs. she was getting 3 oz of NV per day and was eating a little more kibble. She also gets Sold Gold Tiny Tot Treats for training purposes usually broken in half.

I feed her raw from NV and leave Innova puppy kibble out. She doesn't seem to eat a lot of the kibble and gobbles the raw - or rather, it's gone so fast, I would say she inhales the raw 

The difference between three weeks ago (when she weighed 6.11 lbs) and now, (when she weighs 8.9 lbs, is that I began checking the feeding recommendations on the NV site and also on the Primal Nuggets site. As a result, I increased her raw intake from 3 oz to 5 oz per day because I realized she was a puppy and according to them, should be getting more food than I was giving her. I also began 3x day feeding rather than 2x day as I had been doing.

Her exercise has been limited as I'm in NYC and the weather has been extremely cold, often snowy etc. However, I have a large apt. and she runs back and forth quite a bit.

When the vet weighed her today, I was told that 8.9 pounds is the "upper end" of what she should EVER weigh. Therefore, I should cut feedings to 2x day etc. I must say that I did ask the vet to weigh her because it looked to me, fur and all, that she was getting a little belly that swayed along as she ran. Once the vet found out I was feeding raw, he had no recommendations as to amount but did say I should cut to twice a day and reduce the amount. He also said I shouldn't feed raw and leave kibble down.

How do the Vets know how much a dog who is 6 months old should weigh as an adult? How can the vet say at 6 months, that this dog should never weigh more than 8.9 lbs? And are the recommendations on the NV site inflated?

How much should I cut her portions? And should I move to 2x/day? 

And most important, how do I find out how much she "should" weigh at this time in her life? Are dogs, like people, better off being a little on the thin side, even when they are half grown puppies?

I apologize for the length of this post and really appreciate your feedback.

Louise


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

At 6 months I would definitely say feed her 2x a day. She doesn't need to be fed 3x a day. Also, I think it's very presumptuous of your vet to say she should ever weight no more than 8.9lbs. However, an easy check is to feel for her ribs. Can you feel them very well or not at all? If it's the latter, then you are feeding her too much and she is too fat. You should be able to feel her ribs very easily if she's at the right weight.


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## karlabythec (Nov 9, 2008)

I was told by my vet Gracie will probably be 10-11 pounds.
She is 29 weeks right now and weighs 8.8. 
Why did he say 8 pounds?


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## maryam187 (Jul 18, 2007)

Louise,
you can check this thread out for comparison: http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=1681

Other than feeling the ribs easily, you can check from above if she has a nice waistline or is just a 'block' and you can also check from the side if her abdomen is caved it like it should or chubby. It's easiest to check for the last 2 when she's wet.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Louise, welcome to the forum. Ellie is an adorable little girl. be fortunate you have a Hav that eats...LOL. I have one who does and one who doesn't. The vet may be looking at her bone size to suggest the adult weight. But I know that both my pups grew in height well over a year (and possibly after 2 years a bit.) I do know that the NV medallions (which I feed too) is one of the highest calorie raw on the market. I feed my 22 lb Hav Cash. 4 medallions a day with some greenbeans and training treats through the day...any more and he gains weight. If she is not that active you may want to go back to the 3 medallions a day. And stop leaving kibble out and see what happens. One of the reasons the vet says not to leave the kibble out is that raw and kibble digest and metabolize differently. If you want to feed both-- feed one in the morning and the other at night.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I think you are going to find a wide variety on size in havs. I have been shocked by some havs that I have met to be honest. They seem to vary in size quiet a bit. I have a 10lb (yes that is right to everyone reading he finally hit the fat boy mark!!!) boy and a 11.5 lb girl but they are built differently in build. Dora is a lot more stockier than Dasher who is very lean and muscular. They look different and to a vet who may have saw Dash first, would probably say Dora is over weight. She isn't, she just has a bit more to love in her natural lean state.

I would say at the young puppy stage, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Do you know the size of her parents and grandparents? She may just be a bigger girl. I would probably go to 2 feedings a day like suggested. I would also really measure out more what she eats. If you have dogs that don't overeat, I think leaving kibble out is fine but to be honest a lot of dogs don't quit eating. I think they may eat out of boredom, etc. My maltese is on raw and I leave kibble out but she often times leaves a lil raw on her plate. She just has learned it isn't exciting and new and she gets it everyday. She originally got a lil tubby on the raw but quickly realized it isn't her last meal and she can leave a lil on the plate (I should take her lead!)


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

I don't know the size of her parents and have no way to find out since I got her in a "good" pet store.

I will be more careful about how much kibble she eats and reduce the amount of raw.

BUT - can you underfeed a puppy so that they're not as healthy as they might be, and not have it visible?

Louise


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## RikiDaisyDixie (Apr 15, 2008)

*Most havanese I know are between 10-12 lbs...*

A few are less, some are more. The standard doesn't list weight anymore, although it is my understanding that it did at one time.

Just like people though muscle can weigh more than fat!

Feeding raw shouldn't make a dog fat unless you overfeed, it only has good things in it and no biproducts or cereal.

Riki is perfect at 12, at almost 14 there was some extra meat on him. I could feel it at the ribs as he wasn't tapering after them.

Do puppies get fat? They run around so much I think they burn it all off!

I picked up an adult havanese that was fat. She was so heavy and you could not feel her ribs. She also has been sneaking cat food which is very high in calories.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Louis,

Why don\t you just stop feeding the kibble and just feed the raw?? your dog might be getting to much food, you know? What sort of kibble are you feeding? Puppy formula or adult?

Also, what is a 'good' pet store?? 

Ryan


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

quote: "When the vet weighed her today, I was told that 8.9 pounds is the "upper end" of what she should EVER weigh" 

That's just simply wrong. For a long time the range was 10 to 13 pounds and that was pretty much what you found most of the time. Now new people are breeding them much smaller and larger and the standard is a changing target but that statement quoted above is by someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

Can you feel the ribs? Does he have plenty of energy?


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

My problem with separating raw and dry feedings is the following:

I feed raw breakfast (which I will reduce in quantity) at about 8 AM. I usually leave for about 4 hours and crate her.

I feed raw dinner (which I will also reduce in quantity), at around 6:30 PM.

Then, I go to bed around 11 and crate her for the night in my bedroom. I usually feed her breakfast around 8 AM.

I have been leaving kibble available where her food is (in the kitchen) and in both crates.

If I remove the kibble, she will have nothing to eat between 6:30 pm (when she has her raw dinner) and 8 AM when she has breakfast. This seems like an awfully long time for a 6 month old puppy.

Might it be good to remove the kibble from the kitchen and from the daytime crate and just leave it in the crate she's in overnight?

If I did this, there would be several hours between the raw food and the kibble availability.

Thoughts about this system?

Louise


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Louis,

I would just feed 2 times a day. Ellie does not need access to food 24/7.. that might be why she is getting a pot belly? Also, if she is being crated for long periods of time, she must not be getting to much exercise.. Maybe take her out of the crate and use an x-pen setup where she can move and play..

Ryan


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Louise,
I think she would be fine to not eat from 630pm to 8am. Mine usually have dinner at 4pm and never touch the food bowl there after. I leave it out in the morning for when they first get up but I would say as long as you feed twice a day- morning and evening with the raw, you are fine. With my adult dogs I have gone to once a day and they are fine with that. When I start doing two meals a day, is when one of them starts skipping and getting picky.


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

I'm feeding Innova Puppy. She doesn't like Solid Gold Puppy. Would you recommend something else?

A "good" pet store is one from which several friends have purchased happy, healthy and well socialized dogs over several years. They sell small dogs only.

I am in NYC and there weren't many breeders in the northeast. I was not prepared to travel by plane. Also, if I took a plane to a breeder, I would have to choose between the pups available from that litter.

I wanted to find "my" dog. In the pet store described above, there were several Havanese, and I saw a few others at another store - I walked away from all of them because.....they weren't "my" dog. As soon as I saw and held Ellie, without being aware of it, I said out loud "that's my dog". And she is. 

So far she has been very healthy, friendly with people and other dogs. I hope it continues.

Louise


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Louis, Puppy formula food has lots more calories than adult. So if you have to leave kibble out for her, atleast try a lower caloric food... That might do the trick!

Ryan


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

She will be spayed within about 4 weeks. It will also get warmer. At that point she will go to play group for several hours a few days a week and therefore, will get a lot more exercise.

I also don't plan to crate her during the day for very much longer. Even now, when I'll be gone for only an hour or two, I often leave her out with the run of 2 rooms and she is fine.

I agree that she needs more physical exercise and also more dog companionship. This has been a very unusually cold winter which has not helped to get her out and active as much as would normally be the case.

I am definitely moving to 2x a day and also cutting the portion back. In fact, I did it today!

Louise


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

OH - I didn't know that.

What adult formula(s) would you recommend. That's an easy fix - or at least an easy way to make a transition for her.

Louise


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Louise- you could always take her to another vet to get another opinion on her weight too if you are worried about her being too overweight or if you thought this one was wrong and didn't now the correct size for your dog. Unfortunately with getting her at a pet store (these dogs aren't usually bred with the havanese standard in mind) and not knowing her lineage, you don't know what size she should be around either. If she had 25lb parents, than she probably wouldn't weight the same if her parents were 12lbs.


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

This is true. I may bring her to another vet for a second opinion. 

However, she looked kind of round to me and therefore, it was me who asked the vet to weigh her when I took her in for her booster shot (leptosporosis). When the vet weighed her, he said she was at the very upper end, etc. So really, I was already a little suspicious or I wouldn't have asked.

When I bought her the owner of the store said she was likely to be under 10 pounds when fully grown. This wasn't a "sales pitch", they had no idea of my preference, and in fact, I had none. 

For yet another opinion, I am bringing her to the store tomorrow. They know her and I believe they have some information on her lineage. Of course I'm going to ask them if they think she's overweight or on the verge.

Louise


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Louise,
I don't want to burst your bubble but I feel I have to address this since this is a public forum and those looking for a havanese puppy could read this thread. There are no such thing as "good pet stores." Good breeders don't sell to pet stores. Pet store puppies come from puppy mills, brokers, and backyard breeders. While you may have lucked out and so far your little girl is healthy and seems socialized, many others do not luck out. Unfortunately, I wouldn't trust a pet store for guidance on your dog and I am glad you found the havanese forum. 

Why they probably said the dog is going to be under 10lbs, they may have done that for marketing reasons. You may not be biased to size but a lot of people are. Just google teacup havanese and look what the backyard breeders and puppy mills will sell them for- a lot more than a health tested havanese from a great breeder. The pet store that was near me in LA- probably the most famous in the U.S. and probably also thought to be a good pet store where all the celebrities went, classified their dogs as regular, toy, and teacup. And this is for all breeds. They received a premium on the smaller dogs.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Louise, I too want to say that 2 times a day is fine. when you leave for 4 hours maybe fill a kong with a little kibble or a few treats to leave in her crate. (I know a fav is kibble and then a bit of peanut butter on top and then freeze them...it will take her a long time to unleash the kibble) Other than being a little round? does she act like a normal puppy...full of energy and not much itching? From what you are saying she is getting 4-5 meals a day...raw fed on schedule and bowls of kibble in two crates and in the kitchen. if you want to leave food in all those places just make sure it does not exceed the recommended (that's why kongs are good-- keeps them busy for hours for a few pieces of kibble) If you go to the NV site. they have a feeding calculator and it says a 9lb dog of average activity, if feeding part raw and part kibble should only get 1.5 oz of raw (1 and 1/2 medallion) and 1/4 cup kibble a day. Here's the link.

http://www.naturesvariety.com/feedguide

but one thing, if she has actually been eating all you put down (is all that kibble really gone or do you toss some) take her off it slowly... you don't want to starve her. so again, the kongs are a good idea

http://www.petco.com/product/10375/Puppy-KONGs.aspx

keep us posted...and as you know if you have been lurking...we want pictures!


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

I will second (or third or tenth) the recommendation that you learn how to feel her ribs to determine if she is overweight or underweight. Don't go by the numbers on the scale as many Havanese are built differently. What is "fat" for one Havanese may be underweight for another.

If you cannot feel her ribs, definitely work on lowering her weight as it can be deterimental to her hip development to be overweight as a puppy.

A side note: Ethical breeders do not sell their dogs to any commerical business. It is strictly forbidden by every dog breed club Code of Ethics that I've seen.


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## PepperToast (Oct 27, 2008)

louise said:


> She will be spayed within about 4 weeks. It will also get warmer. At that point she will go to play group for several hours a few days a week and therefore, will get a lot more exercise.
> 
> Louise


Hi Louise,

This just triggered a memory for me. My mother and father-in-law have a havanese named Willow and they feed her raw food. They tend to show their love for Willow through food as well as cuddles, so she was a rather jolly looking pup. Their vet was too scared to tell them that their dog was fat because people treat their dogs like kids and get extremely offended when they hear anything negative. My in-laws were very good customers for this vet - they never hesitated to take Willow into the vet for any concern at all. I am sure she did not want to loose them as customers.

When it was time for her spay, she came to my town and had it done at my vet's office because he uses laser and my dogs got over surgery almost too quickly it felt. My vet is not so concerned with his people clients and upon pick up the vet announced, "Your dog is really fat, I had to dig and dig around in there to find what I was looking for." Willow had a very painful and sore recovery. I was absolutely shocked at the difference between Willow and my dogs who were lean when they had their surgery and as a result it was very straight forward. Poor little Willow. We felt so bad for her.

You might want to keep this in mind for your baby. You have 4 weeks to get her into a good weight. Your vet might have been trying to tell you in an indirect way that for your dog, 8 plus pounds is way to heavy right now at this age.

Also, going that long (12- 14 hours) overnight with no food has never been a problem for any of my dogs. Even the tiny 2 lb ones that I had. I do give them a tiny treat for getting into their crates at night. At the beginning when I felt they were not eating as well as they could have, I gave them a dollop of Nutrical just before bedtime to boost their blood sugars. However I don't think you would need to do this with a dog that is 3.5 lbs or more.

Keep us posted,

Meeka


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## louise (Dec 5, 2008)

She is fine in terms of energy, playfulness and the usual mischievousness. She does scratch a little but she is in a dry steam heated apartment. The groomer didn't feel there was a problem.

I had no idea until now that the kibble was so caloric - I'm pretty sure I've been over-feeding her given the NV recommendations you cite. Also, someone suggested adult kibble rather than puppy kibble as it is lower in calories. Might this also be a good idea?

I tried to upload pictures I just took but couldn't - will try again.

Louise


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## Tritia (Nov 17, 2007)

looks perfect to me


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

louise said:


> Also, someone suggested adult kibble rather than puppy kibble as it is lower in calories. Might this also be a good idea?


 I am not a nutritionist nor do I claim to be an expert in this area by any means, but I read a lot and listen to other canine experts. My puppies do not get puppy kibble at all. From the time they start eating kibble mush, it is an adult formula.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

She is one cutie patootie!!!! I think she is probably fine and will lose some baby fat on her next growth spurt... but from experience I know that when you feed two different types of food you can tend to overfeed. It took me two years and a 22+ pound Hav to learn this lesson. that's why I like the NV calculator...you can plug in percentages of the type of food you want to feed... Raw, Kibble, even Canned... and it will tell you the amounts of each to feed in a day. NV promotes rotation as opposed to split through the day...but I find it too confusing. If once she is older, if she still has a tendency to a little pudge (like my Cash) you may want to do only the medallions. Like humans, the simple carbs may make her more hungry... even the high protein low carb kibbles have potato in them and from experience that is enough to make Cash ravenous...if I feed him all medallions he is fine. But this is just something to keep in the back of your head...I would just adjust the feeding by now... But boy is she cute! Hav fun!


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Louis, Seriously, I do not think Ellie needs 2 different types of food through-out the day. Give her 2 meals a day and be done with it.. lol

Ryan


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

I too have to publicly say there is no such thing as a good pet store that sells dogs. A good pet store sells dog supplies sans the dog.


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## dotndani (Mar 19, 2007)

WOW Ellie is sure a cutie!!
All the havs are different sizes.
My Duncan will be 2 next month and weighs 17 lbs.He's not fat,just solid and a very picky eater that eats twice a day,but usually plays with his morning kibble,but wipes the dish clean at dinner.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I think it's important to note as well that different havs grow at different rates. Milo was much slower growing than Bailey. From the start Bailey, whom I got at just short of 9 weeks, gained weight very fast. However, he reached his full size and weight (it appears) much sooner. I would question any vet who said the dog should weigh that little. Havs do come in all sizes (within a range) and are perfectly healthy. Your little one is a cutie pie.


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## shauu (Jul 9, 2008)

Don't worry Louise. She looks fine. Momo was almost 9 lbs when I had her spayed when she was 6 months old. Momo will be 10 months old in a few days and I suspects her to be at least 13 lbs. She still her usual self, running around actively and I can still feel her ribs. I was once told that it's time to keep her on a diet when her ribs are fully covered with flesh. 

I feed her kibble mixed with boil chicken breast and leave kibble before I leave for work in the morning. She will hardly touch the kibble I left her unless she's really hungry during the day.

Btw, we live in NYC too!


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