# Kick-back Stand



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I could have posted this in Rally or Obedience, but I figured that those of you who show in either might have some tips for me. Kodi and I have stalled on stands.:frusty: He learns most things so quickly, but I've been completely unable to teach him to do a proper stand, and we've been working on it for 6 months.

I can lure him into a stand, but he has no clear idea of what the word means. As soon as I've given him the food, the chances are 50/50 that he'll sit back down again. This is either in heel position, or in front of me in stand for exam. The only way I can keep him on his feet is to keep stuffing food in his mouth.

The trainers at our center have suggested working on it over and over with him standing on the washing machine so that he can't move forward. Have done that until we are both blue in the face. I've tried it with a clicker, I've tried it with our "marker" word, (Yesss!) and it's not getting through. If I do exactly the same hand movement without food, he not only doesn't stand, but he clearly gets frustrated trying to figure out what I want. He scoots back on his butt, then offers me a paw, then the other paw, then if that fails, lies down. The way he keeps offering behaviors, I KNOW he's trying to figure out what I want, but clearly we aren't communicating on this one!

People have told me that sometimes the stand takes a while for them to get, so I've been patient. But I'm not seeing any progress at all. I really think that when he occasionally gets it right during a Rally run-though, it's pure, dumb luck. 

I know that way back when he was tiny, I taught him "sit" and "down" very quickly with the capture method with a clicker. I've been trying to figure out if that could work, but I don't think dogs naturally DO a kick-back stand... they sort of move their front feet forward most of the time, don't they? So I'm not sure I could capture it.

Any great ideas for teaching this? He learns most things so fast, I just can't figure out why this little thing has become such an issue! (for me... I don't think he could care less!)


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Karen, what are you calling a kick-back stand? The term is not one I have used.

If a dog comes from conformation the stand is usually easy. I've had to back up with Galen and am now using the word "exam". Too many S words for her little mind, sit, stay, stand, show, and chute. Sometimes it is as simple as getting the association with a word and movement. Galen would go through all her movements sit, down, dance, scoot back and crawl forward, hoping to get the treat. Now she has got “exam” is stand. Forget all the other commands for a few days and deal only with the stand or whatever you want to call it. The light bulb will go off in Kodi's brain and he will look like "so this is what you wanted all this time".


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

SMARTY said:


> Karen, what are you calling a kick-back stand? The term is not one I have used.


A kick-back stand is where the dog, from a sit, stands by moving his back feet back, rather than moving his front feet forward. I've been told that just like the fold-back down, (which is the only way Kodi has ever done it, so I got lucky on that one) you don't want the dog to move forward at all when he changes position. It probably isn't such a big deal for Rally, but I've been told that they are very particular about it for formal obedience, and you'll lose points if the dog steps forward into the stand. (not for "stand for exam"... I know you can even manually position the dog's legs, if you want, for that) Since I'm interested in doing both Rally and formal obedience, though, I figure it's easier to train him to do the more exacting movement than try to fix it later, when he already thinks he knows what to do. As far as conformation is concerned, he never did that. He, er, doesn't have the "equipment" required.<g>



SMARTY said:


> If a dog comes from conformation the stand is usually easy. I've had to back up with Galen and am now using the word "exam". Too many S words for her little mind, sit, stay, stand, show, and chute. Sometimes it is as simple as getting the association with a word and movement. Galen would go through all her movements sit, down, dance, scoot back and crawl forward, hoping to get the treat. Now she has got "exam" is stand. Forget all the other commands for a few days and deal only with the stand or whatever you want to call it. The light bulb will go off in Kodi's brain and he will look like "so this is what you wanted all this time".


This isn't a problem with not understanding the WORD, though... I haven't put a word on it yet. I can't get him to do it even with a hand gesture. (unless I'm luring him) I'm not at all sure that he's even noticing what his hind legs are doing. I was told that you don't add the verbal cue until you are reliably getting the behavior. I can't even remotely reliably get the behavior, so we haven't worried about a word.

I do think you make a good point about all the "s" words, though. I'll have to think about what I should use... somehow "sit, exam, down" seems kind of funny to get him on his feet for a rally move!<g> Maybe "up"? That doesn't sound like much else that we use...


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Karen, there are various methods. Luring is a quick method. But to get a firm stand , try shaping it. Using a clicker lure him up and as soon as he stands ,click and reward. All you want to do is hold out clicking for longer and longer periods of time. Do not add the cue "command" until you have perfected it and you are sure he is 80 percent chance he will hold it, then put it on cue.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Yeah a lot of people don't teach the Stand. But is not only important for the reasons of examination , but because most people only train sit and down, and when you only have two known commands the dog will simply go to the sit from a down and from the down to a sit. He simply defaults to the only other command he knows when you give a command and he really doesn't learn their meaning. To test whether a dog knows his commands is to try saying sit and when he sits ,you sat sit again, if he lays down, he doesn't know the sit . Once you learn it don't forget about it ,like most people do, because it wiil deteriorate and become extinct.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> Hi Karen, there are various methods. Luring is a quick method. But to get a firm stand , try shaping it. Using a clicker lure him up and as soon as he stands ,click and reward. All you want to do is hold out clicking for longer and longer periods of time. Do not add the cue "command" until you have perfected it and you are sure he is 80 percent chance he will hold it, then put it on cue.


Right, Dave, I know how to capture a behavior with the clicker. This is how I taught him both "sit" and "down". I've lured and clicked till I'm blue in the face, and he's just not getting it. The problem is that dogs, as far as I've been able to see, don't naturally DO a kick-back stand. Watch them... They go from a sit to a stand by moving their front feet forward. I want him to move his back feet back, and leave his front feet where they are.

Similarly, to teach a fold-back down, you have to get the dog to down from a stand. If you teach the down from a sit, they move their front feet forward. (which most pet people do if they are luring the down) Fortunately, when dogs got from a standing position to a down, they often fold back over their haunches on their own, so it's not too hard to capture. Kodi's got that one with no problem.

It's the stand that's got us flummoxed. If I try to shape it, by first just capturing the stand, I'm sure I'll get a stand where he moves his front feet forward. But I have NO idea how I would move from that to a kick-back stand.

And, as I mentioned to Sandi, we haven't even gotten close to where I want to try to put a word on it. <g>


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Are you luring to far from him. Lure with you hand on his chest, so he can't step forward. A little modeling won't hurt.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

krandall said:


> A kick-back stand is where the dog, from a sit, stands by moving his back feet back, rather than moving his front feet forward.


Oh wow - this one sounds like a very hard one to teach with luring. Do you have an advanced obedience classes near you? I think you're going to need someone really experienced in obedience to help guide you with training on this one. (We used to have a really active email group for Havanese Rally, which incorporated a lot of Obedience folks, but it has basically fizzled out now.)

If you want, I can try to email a couple of the women that I know are more advanced, but I can't tackle it for a few days. Just in case I don't see this topic again, feel free to email me or send me a PM if you do want me to contact some advanced Hav obedience folks.


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## brugmansia (Dec 6, 2007)

Karen - I'm having a little bit of problems with Dickson on this one too. Somehow he'll do it when the trainer is in front of him, but when we practice, he'll look at me as if to say, what do you want me to do? We fixed his way of sitting (the tuck sit, which I think may be the same sit you are speaking about. I had to practice this with Dickson and then put him into down position without him moving his front paws. He can do that now. Now I'm working on him doing down, sit, and stand quickly, in different sequences. I'm helping him with his stand for the moment, especially if it's from the down position. My trainer is being picky, in case we go on to obedience. Perhaps changing the command name might work. I use the word 'up' in agility for the A-frame, so I don't think that would work for me. Dickson is also not quite getting the hand gesture either for stand. Wish I had an answer for you!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> Are you luring to far from him. Lure with you hand on his chest, so he can't step forward. A little modeling won't hurt.


No, I am not luring out in front of him, but right toward his chest. I can get him to stand with no problem with a lure, (though he still has a tendency to sit immediately when I withdraw my hand) but after 6 months of regular work on this, there is absolutely NO carryover without a lure. And he has not become lure-dependent or stuck on any other movement, so I don't get it. We are practicing go-outs, for heavens sakes, and he caught onto that in no time flat.

I'm looking for some other possible method of teaching this to him. He's so quick to catch onto most things (everything else we've taught him!) that I am SURE that for some reason, this just isn't sinking in.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Havtahava said:


> Oh wow - this one sounds like a very hard one to teach with luring. Do you have an advanced obedience classes near you? I think you're going to need someone really experienced in obedience to help guide you with training on this one. (We used to have a really active email group for Havanese Rally, which incorporated a lot of Obedience folks, but it has basically fizzled out now.)
> 
> If you want, I can try to email a couple of the women that I know are more advanced, but I can't tackle it for a few days. Just in case I don't see this topic again, feel free to email me or send me a PM if you do want me to contact some advanced Hav obedience folks.


Hi Kimberly, we go to 2 formal obedience classes weekly, and also occasionally take a private lesson. We also do run-throughs (with the help of a trainer) in both Rally and formal obedience weekly. I've had input from 3 different trainers *at the same training center) on this issue, and they have all just encouraged me to "do what I'm doing"... that he will eventually catch on. But 6 months? When he learns everything else so quickly? I just feel like there's a disconnect somewhere, and am looking for alternate ideas. If everyone tells me, yeah, it just takes a long, long time, I'll keep plugging away at it.<g>

It's actually quite easy to lure. With the dog sitting, you take your treat down and toward the dogs chest. As they reach under toward your hand, their rear end automatically pops up. The issue, I THINK, is that Kodi is not consciously moving his rear end... it "just happens" while his little brain is engaged with getting the cookie. (that's my theory anyway)

Yes, when you have the time, if you think of it and could check with some of your friends for tips, it would be great!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

brugmansia said:


> Karen - I'm having a little bit of problems with Dickson on this one too. Somehow he'll do it when the trainer is in front of him, but when we practice, he'll look at me as if to say, what do you want me to do? We fixed his way of sitting (the tuck sit, which I think may be the same sit you are speaking about. I had to practice this with Dickson and then put him into down position without him moving his front paws. He can do that now. Now I'm working on him doing down, sit, and stand quickly, in different sequences. I'm helping him with his stand for the moment, especially if it's from the down position. My trainer is being picky, in case we go on to obedience. Perhaps changing the command name might work. I use the word 'up' in agility for the A-frame, so I don't think that would work for me. Dickson is also not quite getting the hand gesture either for stand. Wish I had an answer for you!


Well, at least it makes me feel better that we aren't the only ones struggling with this!


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I have never heard it called a kick back stand either. I am not sure if you are over thinking (where it does happen with time but 6 months seems very excessive) or I don't think about it enough lol (this is usually the case!) I tested all 3 dogs to see if they do it the same way and they do. They all just put their butt in the air pretty simplified.

I know they were taught differently as I do remember having do a lot more work with Belle and not moving with the examination. I did the method with my arm with her and placing her for obedience so that way it is extremely clear she wasn't to be moving. I also remember at a point we used a leash around her belly! Since you plan to do obedience, I would not use luring for this one as you really want them to know stand implies no movement of those feet (otherwise there goes $20!)

Does Kodi have a touch command? I know this worked for at least Dora and Dash. I would place your hand just barely in front of them so they have to stand up. If he isn't getting this I would use one hand under while doing this. My dogs know my signal better than the word for this command actually and I always do it in heel position as there isn't a time in obedience or rally where it needs to be done in front of you. With higher levels of rally and obedience (remember lower you can completely stack your dog- the last rally trial I was at I was shocked when someone did this!) it is done moving so my signal is just to drop my hand down flat. I would practice doing this as well as maybe that will help him to realize the command "stand" in a few different fashions before it clicks.

Another thing to consider is training the stand v. the stay (even in standing position) separate. So this way you can make sure he understands stand.


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## margaretandluigi (Mar 12, 2008)

I'm seriously lazy in obedience (I take my 170 and run!) so I never bothered to worry about the kickback stand. In novice I can get away with the dog moving forward, but for utility, you definitely want a kick back stand. Not sure if this would work, but maybe teach him to move backwards (from a stand) to target his back feet to something (a towel, rug, etc.) I'm just thinking that this might make him more aware of his back feet and what they are doing. Then he might more readily grasp what you want him to do. (We spend a lot of time in agility teaching big dogs where there back feet are, but we just assume the little dogs will figure it out on their own.)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ama0722 said:


> I have never heard it called a kick back stand either. I am not sure if you are over thinking (where it does happen with time but 6 months seems very excessive) or I don't think about it enough lol (this is usually the case!) I tested all 3 dogs to see if they do it the same way and they do. They all just put their butt in the air pretty simplified.
> 
> I know they were taught differently as I do remember having do a lot more work with Belle and not moving with the examination. I did the method with my arm with her and placing her for obedience so that way it is extremely clear she wasn't to be moving. I also remember at a point we used a leash around her belly! Since you plan to do obedience, I would not use luring for this one as you really want them to know stand implies no movement of those feet (otherwise there goes $20!)


We have been luring by putting the treat right down against his chest, so there is no chance of his fee moving forward.



ama0722 said:


> Does Kodi have a touch command? I know this worked for at least Dora and Dash. I would place your hand just barely in front of them so they have to stand up.


Yes, "touch" is one of the very first things we taught him, as an attention exercise. But if you have them reach forward to touch, even a little, don't they move their feet forward?



ama0722 said:


> If he isn't getting this I would use one hand under while doing this. My dogs know my signal better than the word for this command actually and I always do it in heel position as there isn't a time in obedience or rally where it needs to be done in front of you. With higher levels of rally and obedience (remember lower you can completely stack your dog- the last rally trial I was at I was shocked when someone did this!) it is done moving so my signal is just to drop my hand down flat. I would practice doing this as well as maybe that will help him to realize the command "stand" in a few different fashions before it clicks.


I'm not sure quite what you mean by "use one hand under". I know I can stack him for formal obedience, but that doesn't help me for Rally. And, yes, I have been working on it mostly in heel position, except for when we were working on it on the washing machine, and that was simply a back-saving convenience.<g>



ama0722 said:


> Another thing to consider is training the stand v. the stay (even in standing position) separate. So this way you can make sure he understands stand.


Oh, believe me, we haven't gotten CLOSE to working on a stand-stay... I just want him to get his butt off the floor consistently!<g>


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

margaretandluigi said:


> I'm seriously lazy in obedience (I take my 170 and run!) so I never bothered to worry about the kickback stand. In novice I can get away with the dog moving forward, but for utility, you definitely want a kick back stand. Not sure if this would work, but maybe teach him to move backwards (from a stand) to target his back feet to something (a towel, rug, etc.) I'm just thinking that this might make him more aware of his back feet and what they are doing. Then he might more readily grasp what you want him to do. (We spend a lot of time in agility teaching big dogs where there back feet are, but we just assume the little dogs will figure it out on their own.)


Thank you, Margaret, I think that's an EXCELLENT idea. I've definitely had the feeling that when he is concentrating on the treat when I lure him into a stand that he isn't even noticing what his back feet are doing. I have a flower pot base that I used to teach him pivots, maybe if I place that behind him and click him fro getting his back feet into it rather than his front feet... Hmmm. It's at least something new to try!


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

In obedience you would actually never have to do this as in novice you can stack your dog and in utility it is a moving stand. Actually in novice and advanced rally you can stack your dog as well (I learned that last trial when I thought a friend's student made a big no no!). It looks just like in excellent rally, you can't touch your dog.

By use one hand under, I guess I was assuming he had no clue what the world "stand" meant. So say you are next to him and you take your left hand and you lift at his tummy with your right hand directly in front with your signal. You say touch and as soon as he moves lift just his belly a little but keep your hand close enough he doesnt move forward.

Here is a good way to do it (probably the best place to look is for the big giants as when they go to a stand they would be way way out of heel position!)



> STAND FOR EXAM
> Start with your Borzoi in a sit. Hold food in your right hand and slowly lure her forward just enough to get her to lift her rear. Your Borzoi should move no more than 10 inches. Praise as soon as she is up and give her the treat. Work on this phase until she stands quickly. If she takes more than a step or two forward, you are probably moving your hand too far away from her nose. Once your Borzoi has the idea of standing, you may want to teach the kick-back stand. Sit your Borzoi and stand facing her right side. Put your right foot in front of her front paws to block any forward motion. Hold a piece of food in your right hand by her nose. Command "stand", gently touching her rear toes with your left foot or tickle her tummy with your left hand. Keep your right hand still! Focus on her front feet and, if moving, block them better and move your hand less. Gradually reduce the amount of food you use and increase the number of repetitions before feeding. The kick-back stand, taught properly, is very efficient, presents a nice picture in the ring and eliminates the need for handler fussing and foot placing. Another method is to walk her and then say "stand" as you stop. Teach her to stand while you gently move and position each of her legs. (This is good training for conformation showing). Make sure she is comfortable standing, with all 4 feet placed directly under her. Teach her the stay command, as was done for the sit-stay. Again, first increase time, then distance. While introducing the exam part of the stand exercise, make sure to stay close to her until she is comfortable with people approaching. Add distance in small increments.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Thanks, Amanda,

That helps too. Now I've got a couple of things to try!

I just checked the AKC rule book for Rally, though, and it says: "handler may not touch the dog or make physical corrections". So I don't think it is legal to stack them on a sign for stand, even if it were practical. I can't find any signs, either in AKC that include the stand until the advanced level. (and there it again specifically says you can't touch the dog) but APDT does include two standing exercises at "level 1" (novice level).


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