# Spaying Advice - HELP!



## FancyNancy (Oct 7, 2009)

Hi Everyone-
Please pardon me if this topic has been hammered to death but lots of the posts on it were very old so I though I would test the waters on everyones thoughts now.

My little tiny Rosebud is just 6 months old and 7.5 lbs. I had her scheduled for a spay in 2 days and today I freaked out and decided to cancel. I thought:

1)maybe she's too young - thoughts? If so, when is the best time? 

2)Maybe I should have the procedure done after she's had 1-2 heats- thoughts?

3) maybe I should have an OVERYECTOMY rather than have her uterus removed - this is common in Europe and I have found a vert near me who does it. Thoughts?

HELP! What do you think? Karen Randall - want to weigh in on this?

Thanks so much Forumites! I look forward to your experience and knowledge.


----------



## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

We waited until Shama had her first heat. She was over a year old. You can search my threads for the topic. We knew we wanted her to be an agility dog, so we wanted to give her bones more time to grow before removing her source of hormones. Both our breeder and our vet recommended waiting. A trainer I know recommended we wait until she was two years old, but we didn't wait that long. I think the reason many people encourage early spaying and neutering is just to avoid unwanted puppies (and perhaps a heat cycle), but I think a responsible owner (who's not going to allow her dog to get pregnant or impregnate another dog) can wait until the dog is at least a year old. Good luck! I'm sure others will weigh in.


----------



## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Canine Hormone Support for Spayed or Neutered Dogs

This is by Karen Becker, and has a lot of things to think about before spaying or neutering. I wish I'd known 10 years ago. She does talk about a product she has developed to help those of us where our dogs were already neutered long ago if we are having problems, but most of the link talks about her reasoning behind waiting longer to spay or neuter.


----------



## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

I agree I did the same as ShamaMama waited til after first heat, Sophie was about 1 yr 2 months old. 
Sheri has a great link I too which I had known more before spaying I may not have at all. On the other hand going through those heat cycles are no fun for us or them and there is a small increase risk of mammary cancer if you don't spay before 2-3 heat cycles. I trust our holistic vet and with the information we have on all this she suggested also between first and second heat cycle.

The rule of thumb is to wait for the growth plates to close which should happen by around 18 months old max. It varies from dog to dog. You can't tell for sure without an Xray though.

FWIW I talked to a dog savvy friend of mine in the UK who said she has not seen a decrease in health issues in dogs there that have never been spayed or neutered. But that is of course a limited experience although she does agility and shows and knows a lot of breeders etc.


----------



## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Dee Dee said:


> FWIW I talked to a dog savvy friend of mine in the UK who said she has not seen a decrease in health issues in dogs there that have never been spayed or neutered. But that is of course a limited experience although she does agility and shows and knows a lot of breeders etc.


Interesting to know.


----------



## Scarlett's mom (Feb 14, 2017)

My vet (holistic) told me after 1 and maybe 2 or 3 heat seasons.

My vet:

http://www.drjudymorgan.com/articles/when-to-spay-neuter/

hope it's ok to post this lnk.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I think that the thinking at this point is that as long as you can ensure that the girl will not get pregnant (I know you can) that it is best to wait until AT LEAST after the first heat and first birthday. Pixel didn't go into heat the first time until 14 months, so was spayed at about 18 months (after a false pregnancy that was TONS of fun! LOL!) 

Panda has had two heats and is still not spayed. My vet feels that it is best to wait until after the second birthday with a performance dog anyway, and in Panda's case, I'm still not entirely sure I don't want to put her back in the conformation show ring. (and I want to leave other options one as well  )

Yes there is a SLIGHTLY higher risk of mammary cancers in females spayed later, but my vet feels that in the hands of conscientious dog owners, who will IMMEDIATELY report any lumps, that they can be caught early, when it is still possible to completely cure. There is definitely LESS chance of ACL/CCL tears in intact dogs, which is a big issue in performance dogs. 

As far as the ovariectomy is concerned, that's what we did with Pixel (laparoscopically). However she had a LOT of pain, which I have since found is not uncommon in very small dogs, because of the size of the instruments and the amount of gas they need to use to blow the abdomen up enough to see in that tiny body. When I discussed the whole thing with my vet after the fact (she is not the one who did the ovariectomy) she said that she thought they did very good pain management with a traditional spay, and could visualize the reproductive organs more easily (thus creating less trauma to the tissues) in a tiny dog with an open spay. Of course, there is a bigger incision to heal, but the internal healing is a toss up with the little ones.

Also, you may not even find someone who would do a laparoscopic procedure on a less than 8 lb dog. Pixel is a (whopping ) almost 10 lbs and the vet said she was as small as she was willing to work on. She said that because a Havanese was a little longer bodies than, say, a 10 lb Pomeranian, it gave her more room to work. 

After having done it once on a Havanese, I don't think I'd choose it again. Pixel had a miserable time, and while she IS a bit of a baby about things, I am not at all sure a traditional spay with a good surgeon would have been any worse... And my regular vet does traditional spays. I had to travel a long distance to have it done. This is not at all a financial decision, though. The laparoscopic procedure was only about $100 more than a traditional spay locally would have been. ($700 vs. about $600)


----------



## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

I did not know any of that Karen! As you know Sophie had a horrible time with her laparoscopic spay also which was such a surprise since that was supposed to be the much easier route. Not one vet mentioned any of these things you just wrote about which really ticks me off. I too now wish I had done a traditional spay with better pain management it was a really miserable time from the moment she woke up screaming her lungs out and a long painful recovery.


----------



## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Poor Pixel and Sophie! So glad they feel better now! Thanks for sharing your experiences with us.


----------



## equi11frnd (Dec 21, 2014)

I just thank goodness for this forum. I look here and always find helpful suggestions to my questions. My girl, Remi, is a one year and one month. She had her first heat at 8 months which was a miserable time with her full brother. Even with him neutered it made no difference in him thinking he was fully capable of being a man. I don't look forward to going through that again, but I definitely want to make sure I do the right thing for her joints as we are just beginning working with some agility and she LOVES it. She is also just barely 10 lbs the way smallest of my three. Thank you for the link to the Dr Becker video. I believe I am definitely going to struggle through a few more heats. I feel a bit badly about neutering my male now at 15 months but after being 100% house broken he started marking all over the place. Neutering did stop that behavior, but my little girl has no issues. I did a late spay on my other Havanese female at about six years and had some small tumors removed then as well. She is fine vibrant and wonderful at 11. My vets are still a proponent of early spay to prevent mammary cancer and scolded me for the late spay. I still love my vets and find it hard to go against them. So thank you again for all the information everyone provides here!


----------



## FancyNancy (Oct 7, 2009)

I have to second the sentiments of equi1frnd! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU ALL for your generosity and willingness to take the time to share information. I thank my lucky starts for this forum!!

Karen - as usual I learned a ton from you (which I do in every post or comment you write). Because of your experience and Dee Dees too, I have decided not to do the overardectomy which I was planning on. I feel like I dodged a bullet. 

Thanks to all of you I feel that I now have a good understanding of the pros and cons of various procedures and timing. The vet was absolutely no help!

Again, thanks everyone.


----------



## Maistjarna (Oct 15, 2016)

krandall said:


> Also, you may not even find someone who would do a laparoscopic procedure on a less than 8 lb dog. Pixel is a (whopping ) almost 10 lbs and the vet said she was as small as she was willing to work on. She said that because a Havanese was a little longer bodies than, say, a 10 lb Pomeranian, it gave her more room to work.


We asked our vet to do a laparoscopic procedure on Luna (11 lbs) and he said the min weight he accepts is 11 lbs and that the camera incision is as big as the incision he would make for a normal spay. And sure enough, the incision was only about 1cm long (less than 1/2 inch).
If I am remembering this right, he is one of the best at S/N in my aream


----------



## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

> We asked our vet to do a laparoscopic procedure on Luna (11 lbs) and he said the min weight he accepts is 11 lbs and that the camera incision is as big as the incision he would make for a normal spay. And sure enough, the incision was only about 1cm long (less than 1/2 inch).
> If I am remembering this right, he is one of the best at S/N in my aream


Good information! I sure wish a vet would have told me that before I had Sophie done.  Not one said anything to that effect at all.


----------



## Heather's (Jun 18, 2012)

Truffles was spayed at one year old and weighed 10lbs. She had an ovariectomy. It was not laparoscopic, but a very small incision. She had no problems and healed quickly.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dee Dee said:


> I did not know any of that Karen! As you know Sophie had a horrible time with her laparoscopic spay also which was such a surprise since that was supposed to be the much easier route. Not one vet mentioned any of these things you just wrote about which really ticks me off. I too now wish I had done a traditional spay with better pain management it was a really miserable time from the moment she woke up screaming her lungs out and a long painful recovery.


I didn't put two and two together, and start asking more questions until BOTH Sophie and Pixel had such a horrible time. When I took Pixel in for her pre-spay appointment with the surgeon, she felt her body and told me that although she normally didn't do lap-spays on dogs under 10 lbs, she could in Pixel's case, because, being a Havanese, she was longer bodied... giving her more room to work. She NEVER told me that this could be a pain issue... It just sounded like little dogs were more difficult for her to work on, so she didn't like doing it. If she had mentioned anything about the pain issues, I would have re-thought the whole thing.

Like Sophie, Pixel had a MISERABLE recovery... We carried her around on a pillow for over a week, because you couldn't touch her without her screaming. All day she would lie curled up in her bed and not MOVE, unless I took her outside to potty. I had to hand feed her and offer her water in her bed, because she wouldn't even get up for that. We were sent home with both pain meds AND anti-inflammatories, but they didn't touch her pain. She cried all night the first night. The next day, I went to my own vet, and they gave me opiate based pain meds to use on top of the other. The good thing about those was that they were liquid, so I could slowly back off on the dose as she started doing better.

This was my poor baby for the first week. Even Panda (who was really a baby then) was worried about her! Pix was in the ex-pen, not to confine her, but to keep a bouncy puppy girl from bothering her!

It breaks my heart to even look at her face in these photos.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

equi11frnd said:


> I just thank goodness for this forum. I look here and always find helpful suggestions to my questions. My girl, Remi, is a one year and one month. She had her first heat at 8 months which was a miserable time with her full brother. Even with him neutered it made no difference in him thinking he was fully capable of being a man. I don't look forward to going through that again, but I definitely want to make sure I do the right thing for her joints as we are just beginning working with some agility and she LOVES it. She is also just barely 10 lbs the way smallest of my three. Thank you for the link to the Dr Becker video. I believe I am definitely going to struggle through a few more heats. I feel a bit badly about neutering my male now at 15 months but after being 100% house broken he started marking all over the place. Neutering did stop that behavior, but my little girl has no issues. I did a late spay on my other Havanese female at about six years and had some small tumors removed then as well. She is fine vibrant and wonderful at 11. My vets are still a proponent of early spay to prevent mammary cancer and scolded me for the late spay. I still love my vets and find it hard to go against them. So thank you again for all the information everyone provides here!


Six years is probably on the late side, unless it is a breeding bitch. If you wait that long, you are also taking chances with Pyo, which can be deadly, and come on very quickly in an unspayed female.

I think you are wise to put off spaying your younger girl before she has had a heat or two, but you probably want to do it sooner than your first girl! I CAN tell you that Panda's first heat was MISERABLE, both in terms of managing her and my (neutered) male, but even more because she was a bloody mess, AND blowing coat, and the combination was NOT good. But her second heat was a breeze. Either she didn't bleed nearly as much or she just kept herself much cleaner. We didn't even have to put panties on her except when she went to agility class (training center rule). I did sill have to monitor her and Kodi CONSTANTLY around day 13-17, and they STILL managed to tie once. I know my breeder friends either keep their intact boys TOTALLY locked away while they have a girl in heat that they don't want to breed, or ship him off to live with a friend for the duration.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Maistjarna said:


> We asked our vet to do a laparoscopic procedure on Luna (11 lbs) and he said the min weight he accepts is 11 lbs and that the camera incision is as big as the incision he would make for a normal spay. And sure enough, the incision was only about 1cm long (less than 1/2 inch).
> If I am remembering this right, he is one of the best at S/N in my aream


Yes, when I discussed it with my vet AFTER doing the laparoscopic spay with Pixel, she told me that a lot of pain management and incision size came down to the skill of the surgeon. I've seen some pretty nasty spay incisions, so you DO want to pick someone who can do it with as little tissue trauma as possible.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Heather's said:


> Truffles was spayed at one year old and weighed 10lbs. She had an ovariectomy. It was not laparoscopic, but a very small incision. She had no problems and healed quickly.


Yes, and the can be a great option too, if the vet will do it!


----------



## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Oh man those photos of Pixel breaks my heart too! Poor baby, those eyes! <3 I am so glad the spays are behind us! I don't think either of us were prepared for how much pain these girls were going to be in. Frustrating that you try to research and educate yourself on these things beforehand and even then you can receive wrong or not enough information to help you make the best decision.


----------



## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Those poor babies. It just breaks my heart to even read about their surgeries and their pain!


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Dee Dee said:


> Oh man those photos of Pixel breaks my heart too! Poor baby, those eyes! <3 I am so glad the spays are behind us! I don't think either of us were prepared for how much pain these girls were going to be in. Frustrating that you try to research and educate yourself on these things beforehand and even then you can receive wrong or not enough information to help you make the best decision.


You're not kidding! I drove an hour and a half each way, and spent all day waiting for her (because the drive was so long) AND paid more money than for a traditional spay. Certainly NOT from lack of TRYING t do "the right thing" for my baby!!! LOL!


----------



## Dee Dee (Jul 24, 2015)

Dang I hear ya! Thought we were doing the best thing possible and it was actually worse. I never leave my kids I always stay with them going down and coming back up and wait there in between. If it's over night I'm either in the lobby or if not allowed right outside the front door in my car. (they tend to discharge patients faster that way with a bug eyed mom staring them down lol). But almost was sorry to be there to witness that horrible screaming that just seemed to never end. 

Dogs sure do suffer a lot! Sophie got to play with her poodle friend Sunday and got sick the day after. Still not feeling great. I am SO over IBD it's not even funny.  Be very thankful for your dogs that can eat and play and go places and not get sick if you have one it really turns your life on end if you don't. I do know an alarming number of Hav's with tummy issues though....


----------



## Olliepup (Jun 2, 2016)

I'm also waiting until after Olive's first heat but shes now 17 months old and still hasnt had it yet. Anyone else have their first heat this late?


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

My puppy is going to be 8 months in a couple of weeks. My vet seemed to suggest spaying before the first heat. I've been uncomfortable about doing this and now think I'll hold off. I've never dealt with a dog in heat. What can I expect? The other dog in the house is a 7 year old female golden-doodle. My Havanese puppy only goes outside on a leash and is indoor housebroken.


----------



## Scarlett's mom (Feb 14, 2017)

Scarlett is almost 19 months and still not spayed. She has been through two heat cycles so I will spay her soon. It wasn't bad dealing with it. I got a couple of doggie diapers at Petsmart and kept them on her while 
she was free in the house. At night she slept in her crate without the diaper. It lasted about 3 weeks. She peed a lot more and just a little at a time. At first I thought she had a UTI. Possibly letting any males in the area know "Here I am"! Also she skipped meals more often. She did mat where the diaper rubbed so you may want to brush those areas more. Other than those things it wasn't terrible  Oh during her second heat Willow had her first...we had a lot of pee wars outside!


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Panda is not spayed, and won't be for the time being. She is very good about keeping herself cleaned up, and I don't put panties on her in the house. I did for her first heat, and she was a horrible matted mess. Decided I wouldn't do THAT again!!! During her worst days, which is really the first week, I just put a sheet over the one couch she's allowed on (in my office) to protect it. Even then, there is no more than a couple of drops of blood in the entire week. She does where panties when she goes to agility class, as that is the rule there.

While it is true that their entire heat cycle is about 3 weeks, they don't bleed after the first week or so. Then it turns to a very light flow of straw-colored liquid that you probably wouldn't even notice if you weren't looking for it.

Pixel only had one heat before we spayed her, but that was because she had a false pregnancy after that one heat, and I didn't want ANY of us to have to go through THAT again! LOL!


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

krandall said:


> Panda is not spayed, and won't be for the time being. She is very good about keeping herself cleaned up, and I don't put panties on her in the house. I did for her first heat, and she was a horrible matted mess. Decided I wouldn't do THAT again!!! During her worst days, which is really the first week, I just put a sheet over the one couch she's allowed on (in my office) to protect it. Even then, there is no more than a couple of drops of blood in the entire week. She does where panties when she goes to agility class, as that is the rule there.
> 
> While it is true that their entire heat cycle is about 3 weeks, they don't bleed after the first week or so. Then it turns to a very light flow of straw-colored liquid that you probably wouldn't even notice if you weren't looking for it.
> 
> Pixel only had one heat before we spayed her, but that was because she had a false pregnancy after that one heat, and I didn't want ANY of us to have to go through THAT again! LOL!


How do you know if they're in heat? I think, Patti might be there. I've been wondering what was going on for the last couple of days. She's been licking her vulva frequently. It appears swollen and has a slight discoloration. I bathed her bottom this morning thinking something was going on. For a while she stopped licking herself but was back doing it and again there is a slight discoloration even though I've bathed her. I've thought when looking at her from behind while walking, the vulva appeared enlarged and a tiny bit pink...but it could be dirty from pee. She's white around her bottom. She'll turn 8 months October 26th.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Scarlett's mom said:


> Scarlett is almost 19 months and still not spayed. She has been through two heat cycles so I will spay her soon. It wasn't bad dealing with it. I got a couple of doggie diapers at Petsmart and kept them on her while
> she was free in the house. At night she slept in her crate without the diaper. It lasted about 3 weeks. She peed a lot more and just a little at a time. At first I thought she had a UTI. Possibly letting any males in the area know "Here I am"! Also she skipped meals more often. She did mat where the diaper rubbed so you may want to brush those areas more. Other than those things it wasn't terrible  Oh during her second heat Willow had her first...we had a lot of pee wars outside!


Thanks! She might be in heat now. I'm trying to figure it out.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> How do you know if they're in heat? I think, Patti might be there. I've been wondering what was going on for the last couple of days. She's been licking her vulva frequently. It appears swollen and has a slight discoloration. I bathed her bottom this morning thinking something was going on. For a while she stopped licking herself but was back doing it and again there is a slight discoloration even though I've bathed her. I've thought when looking at her from behind while walking, the vulva appeared enlarged and a tiny bit pink...but it could be dirty from pee. She's white around her bottom. She'll turn 8 months October 26th.


If her vulva is swollen, it's a very good sign. If you are not seeing any bleeding, check first thing in the morning, right when she wakes up, by blotting with a kleenex. Usually, even with a girl with a light flow, who keeps her self very clean. you can catch it then.

Because I have a boy in the house, even though he is neutered, it's pretty obvious when one of the girls is coming in. He starts being EXTREMELY interested in their "lady bits", often sticking his nose in front of a hind leg, then underneath. Pixel will do that to Panda too.

But if her vulva is swollen, even if you've missed the blood, I'd be very, VERY careful to keep her away from any males for the next 3 weeks, just to be safe.


----------



## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

My heart goes out to Pixel and Sophie, and everyone else in that household. What a stressful time! I can’t imagine. 

I often get irritated by professionals who do not give their customers the complete information to make an informed decision. But it is even worse when those professionals are going to do something that can inflict so much pain. Human patients must sign off that they have been given all this information before surgery. The same is not true for animals? Why not? These are our babies and those professionals should be aware and sensitive to the after- effects and inform us before the fact!

Thank God for this forum!


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Sheri said:


> Canine Hormone Support for Spayed or Neutered Dogs
> 
> This is by Karen Becker, and has a lot of things to think about before spaying or neutering. I wish I'd known 10 years ago. She does talk about a product she has developed to help those of us where our dogs were already neutered long ago if we are having problems, but most of the link talks about her reasoning behind waiting longer to spay or neuter.


The Karen Becker article had me until the end when it turned out to be a sales pitch to buy a product. :crying::crying:


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

krandall said:


> Yes, and the can be a great option too, if the vet will do it!


Why not do a hysterectomy and leave the ovaries, as they produce estrogen hormones? In humans at a young age it's better to leave the ovaries because of the hormones.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

krandall said:


> If her vulva is swollen, it's a very good sign. If you are not seeing any bleeding, check first thing in the morning, right when she wakes up, by blotting with a kleenex. Usually, even with a girl with a light flow, who keeps her self very clean. you can catch it then.
> 
> Because I have a boy in the house, even though he is neutered, it's pretty obvious when one of the girls is coming in. He starts being EXTREMELY interested in their "lady bits", often sticking his nose in front of a hind leg, then underneath. Pixel will do that to Panda too.
> 
> But if her vulva is swollen, even if you've missed the blood, I'd be very, VERY careful to keep her away from any males for the next 3 weeks, just to be safe.


Didn't find any blood on the Kleenx this morning but I could see what looked like a couple of light pink wet spots where she'd licked herself on a blanket. She's acting a little different, a little more aggressive wanting to play. I'm going to cancel the spaying surgery, talk to the vet and rethink when I'm going to do this.You're suggesting One year is a good time?

One of my hang ups is - I'm dreading the recovery period with her having to wear a Halo. Do they need to wear a Halo?

Laparoscopic abdominal surgery on humans is painful because of the gas. Makes me wonder why they're doing this on animals. I can see it on joint surgery such as knees, maybe.

There's so much competition, it's hard to make a living as a veterinarian . My old time vet was more practical and better than the young vets I dealt with a long time ago. He had a small, kind of, dingy office. The young vets built big, fancy, luxurious offices to attract pet owners. To make a living vets have to come up with something unusual to attract patients. They're motivated to do lots of procedures to make a living.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> Why not do a hysterectomy and leave the ovaries, as they produce estrogen hormones? In humans at a young age it's better to leave the ovaries because of the hormones.


Because it increases the chance for some cancers and it means that you STILL have to deal with the dog going into heat regularly, even if she can't get pregnant. You DON'T want to deal with her attracting unwanted advances, and you can't compete when she's in heat. I would always wait until a girl was physically mature before spay, but then I want those ovaries GONE!!! LOL! (same is true for the boys)


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> Didn't find any blood on the Kleenx this morning but I could see what looked like a couple of light pink wet spots where she'd licked herself on a blanket. She's acting a little different, a little more aggressive wanting to play. I'm going to cancel the spaying surgery, talk to the vet and rethink when I'm going to do this.You're suggesting One year is a good time?


I would definitely put off spaying if you even THINK she is in heat. Most vets advise waiting 2-3 months after heat before spaying.

My girls were certainly not more aggressive. when they were fertile (about day 13) they wanted to engage with Kodi much more. But there was no aggression with the one in heat Interestingly, when Panda is in heat, PIXEL gets very snarky with her, and I have to keep my eye on them. Not sure what that's about. Usually they get along fine, though, so it has to be in response to the hormones.



Mikki said:


> One of my hang ups is - I'm dreading the recovery period with her having to wear a Halo. Do they need to wear a Halo?


No, I didn't use a cone for either Pixel when she was spayed or Kodi when he was neutered. Most of the time, I was with them, and just kept an eye out that they were leaving the incisions alone. IF I had to leave them unsupervised, I put a onesie on Kodi. Never felt the need with Pixel. Actually, Kodi left the incision alone, but they shaved him WAY too much, and gave him some serious razor burn, and THAT was uncomfortable for him.



Mikki said:


> Laparoscopic abdominal surgery on humans is painful because of the gas. Makes me wonder why they're doing this on animals. I can see it on joint surgery such as knees, maybe.


I actually have MANY friends who have had laparoscopic ovariectomies done on larger dogs and it has been much, MUCH easier on them, with a much quicker recovery. To the extent that my vet warned me that some people think the dog is "just fine" after 2-3 days and return them to running agility, etc. She reminded me that it was STILL major surgery and that we should take it easy for a minimum of 10 days. (not that we needed that reminder, because of the awful time Pix had)

I think there were two contributing factors for Pixel. The first is that she is SO small. The surgeon actually told me that if she were ANY smaller, she wouldn't do it. But she didn't explain WHY. So I think the gas used, (and the size of the tools used!) are not that big in comparison to a large dog. But they contributed to Pixel's discomfort. Also, Pix tends to be a bit of a "Princess and the Pea"... EVERYTHING is a big deal in her life. I'm sure that also contributed.  Honestly, I do know several other people with Havanese that have had laparoscopic ovariectomies, and it has gone FINE. So I wouldn't rule it out as an option for a larger one... but not the teeny ones. Also, I should point out that I specifically chose the practice I did because of their long, successful track record with this type of surgery. It would have been much easier for me to take her to someone local to me! 



Mikki said:


> There's so much competition, it's hard to make a living as a veterinarian. My old time vet was more practical and better than the young vets I dealt with a long time ago. He had a small, kind of, dingy office. The young vets built big, fancy, luxurious offices to attract pet owners. To make a living vets have to come up with something unusual to attract patients. They're motivated to do lots of procedures to make a living.


But see, this was NOT my regular practice. My regular vet and I talked it over and talked about the various practices in eastern MA that offered laparoscopic surgery. The practice I go to does not even have laparoscopic equipment. I had heard such good things about the procedure, that I thought it was a good thing for Pixel. My vet and I talked about the various options, and she steered me away from a couple of other practices that have just recently started doing laparoscopic surgeries... just BECAUSE they were new to it. The place I went to has done thousands now.

I wasn't in any way pushed into doing this. I STILL think it is a better option for many dogs. Pixel just had a hard time. But there is also no way of knowing that she would have had an easier time with a traditional spay. The BIG difference would have been that I had support closer by when it was clear that she needed heavier duty pain meds. But even there, my regular vet practice stepped right in and got that going for me as soon as possible.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Thanks! soooo much from the Voice/s of Experience. I'll wait 2-3 months before spaying and appreciate knowing I don't have to put a Halo on the fur-baby for a week. Our 7 year old female golden-doodle was very Snarky! with Patti yesterday and I thought it was probably because of the hormones.


----------



## cishepard (Apr 8, 2018)

Now you have time to shop for cute onesies : )


----------



## Sam I Am (Aug 26, 2018)

Mikki said:


> Didn't find any blood on the Kleenx this morning but I could see what looked like a couple of light pink wet spots where she'd licked herself on a blanket. She's acting a little different, a little more aggressive wanting to play. I'm going to cancel the spaying surgery, talk to the vet and rethink when I'm going to do this.You're suggesting One year is a good time?
> 
> One of my hang ups is - I'm dreading the recovery period with her having to wear a Halo. Do they need to wear a Halo?
> 
> ...


You are right about the old time vets, mine is also a farm vet. He only does office hours in the afternoon. He is straightforward & some people take it as being cold. Whatever trips your trigger, I guess. He saved my Jesse with surgery for pyometra, after we exhausted all other treatment. He didn't make any promises, & informed us of the severity & the risks. She survived. The bill for the surgery was about $250. I saw lots of quotes on the net where people should expect to pay $2500-3000 for the surgery. I'm sticking with my non-flashy vet.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

👍👍


----------



## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

I just want to add that Dave posted an article on neutering and spaying dogs that was very informative regarding personality changes after being altered. Zoey is in her second heat. I have no plans to ever have her spayed. 

Zoey is a very assertive Havanese and is not that great around other dogs. At one of those drop in pet care centers she failed her temper test, while Kos passed with flying colors. The last thing Zoey needs is an increase in aggression or more fearfulness as the Psychology Today article suggested might be the result of altering dogs.

Of course, I think Zoey is perfect, and why alter perfection?

I never have her outdoors unsupervised in a fenced yard, and am fortunate to be able keep her with me during the three week heat cycle. Zoey is either on leash or inside. Her environment is controlled.

This is a personal decision, the choice of if or when to spay a dog. Lifestyle is important, I think if I weren't the age I am and employed the way I am, the decision regarding Zoey might be entirely different.

BTW while "in season" Zoey is a love muffin and even enjoys having her hair brushed. During her first heat she wore the panties with liner, and I thought she was ridiculously cute in the get up.


----------



## Jeanniek (Mar 20, 2018)

Marni said:


> During her first heat she wore the panties with liner, and I thought she was ridiculously cute in the get up.


Oh, my! She is!!


----------



## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

Jeanniek said:


> Oh, my! She is!!


She is in agreement.


----------



## Molly120213 (Jan 22, 2014)

That picture of Zoey in her panties is adorable!


----------



## Marni (Apr 1, 2017)

Molly120213 said:


> That picture of Zoey in her panties is adorable!


I actually grabbed the IPad and was able to photograph her reaction (negative, naturally) when I first put the panties with pad on her. She went behind every throw cushion in the house trying to rub them off. I think her face peaking out from behind a pillow was her way of expressing, "So, NOW you want me to SMILE for the CAMERA!":tea: And, yes, indeed I did.:grin2:


----------



## Aiste (Mar 2, 2017)

what a great thread, i've been reading it very closely as it did address so many of my questions and concerns given that basically all of the research done on spaying/neutering dogs and its effects is usually done on larger dogs making the end conclusions not entirely applicable for the smaller breeds like havanese. Thank you everyone for sharing their stories and experience. 

Mocha had her surgery this past saturday at 23months of age and 2 heats completed. I'm very grateful to our vet after reading a few stories on here, who took the time to explain why the traditional spay was a better option, given how skilled she is to do a very small and precise incision (indeed, it's very nicely done and very small), so the recovery is relieving to us - Mocha is already starting to play and does not seem to be in much pain. 

However, I do share the feelings of everyone who mentioned the overwhelming wave of emotion and guilt which come after you realize your previous knowledge was lacking/incomplete. I consider myself a very responsible pet owner and we never thought about spaying our Mocha just because we didn't want an unexpected pregnancy - during heat we never let her off the leash or leave her unsupervised. here in Lithuania, all dogs are walked on a leash, except dog parks or hiking fields/paths where people allow their dogs some freedom, so we do the same and don't really have to worry as much about free-roaming dogs. The main focus for us was her health and we wanted to avoid potential issues like pyometra, false pregnancy, mammary cancer, etc as much as we could and all my (quite extensive) research pointed towards spaying. Im sure quite a few of you can imagine how devastated and overwhelmed with doubt, guilt and even slight panic I was when yesterday, 24hrs after Mocha's surgery I decided to read a few more articles on the after-care and was faced with so many risks and problems that come WITH spaying like the endocrinal failures, other forms of cancer, incontinence, behavioral issues, etc. I have absolutely no clue why I ignored these parts of the articles I read before or if they were mentioned at all, but the moment it dawned on me that by trying to save her from potential serious health problems, I exposed her to others, I started crying as this realisation was simply overwhelming. 

It is very helpful to read how other Havanese owners went the same route as we did and spayed their female dogs after they had had 1 or 2 heats and definitely after their growth plate had closed, so I'm hoping this helped manage the risks, however, I am still very worried about the potential behavioural changes and other health issues like tumors or incontinence. Are there any havanese owners who could share how their dogs felt/behaved a few years after the surgery? has anyone faced any of the mentioned health problems after completing the surgery? Are there any steps (aside from the regular exercise and quality nutrition) we can take to ensure the overall health of our dogs after they're spayed? I'd really appreciate everyone's stories and experience.

thanks!

p.s. here's our Mocha today, she's feeling a lot better and is starting to play, which is a huge relief to me


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Every dog as a child then into adulthood has been spayed or neutered. Most were females who lived into old age except by accident they were killed. My last dog was a poodle, larger than a toy, but smaller than a medium size. I had her put to sleep at age 17 due to old age problems. I've never known of any disease or illness that was attributed to spaying or neutering. 

Having said this, the only reason we spayed or neutered a dog was to prevent them from going into heat or stop male dogs from marking and wandering off to find a Bitch in Heat. However, my mother waited too late to neuter a Yorkie male and he never did quit the marking. 

My fur-baby, Patti, just turned 8 months and the first heat week has passed. It was such a non-event I didn't realize she was in heat, except I noticed she kept licking her vulva and it appear enlarged. I bathed her thinking for some reason she didn't feel clean, which didn't stop the licking and cleaning herself. If this is all that happens, then I don't see a reason for spaying as she will never be outside off a leash or unattended. I would not want to put up with a "bloody mess" and would be good reason to spay. 

Humans have a negative reaction when their sexual organs are removed and require supplemental hormones. I can't get my head around why dogs would not have the same negative reactions to having ovaries or testicules removed. OTOH .... as I've said I never remember there was any problem related to spaying or neutering with all of our past dogs.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

krandall said:


> Because it increases the chance for some cancers and it means that you STILL have to deal with the dog going into heat regularly, even if she can't get pregnant. You DON'T want to deal with her attracting unwanted advances, and you can't compete when she's in heat. I would always wait until a girl was physically mature before spay, but then I want those ovaries GONE!!! LOL! (same is true for the boys)


From what I've read the ovary sparing procedure is new and the reason to spare the ovaries is: *"The loss of ovarian hormones increases the risk of CCL tears, incontinence, and an obsession with food that can lead to weight gain."* Once the uterus is gone the dog can't go into heat.

It's best to leave ovaries in humans, even a particle working ovary is better than nothing. If ovaries are removed estrogen supplements are typically prescribed because of the harsh side effects of losing the hormone.

I'll have to read more. There's lots of research on humans and cancer, especially female breast cancer. Still ... lots of unknowns. Some of us get it and some don't. I don't think I'll worry a whole lot about cancers in my puppy.

However, incontinence, CCL tears and obsession with food is a known problem ... Hummmm. More research is on my list.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> From what I've read the ovary sparing procedure is new and the reason to spare the ovaries is: *"The loss of ovarian hormones increases the risk of CCL tears, incontinence, and an obsession with food that can lead to weight gain."* Once the uterus is gone the dog can't go into heat.
> 
> It's best to leave ovaries in humans, even a particle working ovary is better than nothing. If ovaries are removed estrogen supplements are typically prescribed because of the harsh side effects of losing the hormone.
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to sway you one way or the other, because IMO, to spay or not to spay is a very personal decision, possibly different for different dogs in the family, and there are risks and benefits to all options. But I don't understand why a dog with working ovaries would not (hormonally) go into heat. (I know they couldn't/wouldn't bleed or (obviously) get pregnant without a uterus). Do you have any literature that explains why this would be? Certainly a male dog with a vasectomy still behaves and has the hormonal drives as an intact male dog, he just cannot pass any sperm to a female.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

BTW, while Pixel had a pretty hard time with recovery from her spay, she has had absolutely NO negative side effects since. No incontinence, no weight gain (which, IMO, is something COMPLETELY within human control &#55357;&#56841 no noticeable increase in appetite, no increase in aggression or fear. Time will tell, of course on possible future problems, but she is every bit the athletic, loving little dog she was before her spay. And having gone though ONE false pregnancy with her, we really wouldn’t have wanted to put either her or ourselves through that again! LOL!


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

krandall said:


> I'm not trying to sway you one way or the other, because IMO, to spay or not to spay is a very personal decision, possibly different for different dogs in the family, and there are risks and benefits to all options. But I don't understand why a dog with working ovaries would not (hormonally) go into heat. (I know they couldn't/wouldn't bleed or (obviously) get pregnant without a uterus). Do you have any literature that explains why this would be? Certainly a male dog with a vasectomy still behaves and has the hormonal drives as an intact male dog, he just cannot pass any sperm to a female.


I appreciate! all you helpful advice and don't feel you're trying to sway me. I've learned a lot from you. You've been helpful through many stressful growth periods.

Apparently, a dog who has their uterus removed -- as you said --:nerd::nerd::nerd: can go into a simulated heat because of the estrogen. Of course, they can't get pregnant. I can't find a lot of information on this, as vets tend to remove both. Why too much information is available now days.:nerd:


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> I appreciate! all you helpful advice and don't feel you're trying to sway me. I've learned a lot from you. You've been helpful through many stressful growth periods.
> 
> Apparently, a dog who has their uterus removed -- as you said --:nerd::nerd::nerd: can go into a simulated heat because of the estrogen. Of course, they can't get pregnant. I can't find a lot of information on this, as vets tend to remove both. Why too much information is available now days.:nerd:


That's what I would expect... and that would mean that you would still have the major disadvantages of an unspayed female... you still couldn't compete with them when they were in that "heat", real or not, because they would still give off those "heat hormones" that make the boys nuts. And places that don't allow bitches in heat in class would, I am quite certain, have the same problem with a girl with ovaries... uterus or not.

The reason for an ovariectomy is that it is a smaller, much less invasive surgery. I'm still not convinced there are great reasons to remove the uterus and not the ovaries. At least not for me and my dogs.


----------



## cishepard (Apr 8, 2018)

Just as an informational annecdote, my sons bitch who is a full sister to Bingo from a previous litter was spayed at 3 yrs old. He was going to leave her intact, but she was starting to show extreme ‘mothering’ behaviours while in heat including obsession over certain toys she considered her ‘puppies’ and great distress. No false pregnancies per say, but he worried about pyometra and felt very bad that she was going through these psychologically trying episodes!
The spay went well and solved the problems, however with absolutely no increase in diet (prey model raw) or change in exercise she ballooned in weight almost immediately. I don’t think he noticed as it was happening, but when I saw her about a month later, she was 2.5 lbs up (on a normally 5 lb dog) and certainly looked very chubby.

As Karen has said, this side effect of gaining weight is totally controllable by us owners, but it can definitely sneak up on you. Their weight needs to be managed with less food. If it was me, I would have cut back on her food by close to half immediately after the spay and only gradually increase if I saw that she was losing weight. My son did that after her realized that she was too heavy and she has been on half rations for many months (5-6 maybe?) and is still overweight. It is much easier for them to gain then to lose!


----------



## Sam I Am (Aug 26, 2018)

cishepard said:


> Just as an informational annecdote, my sons bitch who is a full sister to Bingo from a previous litter was spayed at 3 yrs old. He was going to leave her intact, but she was starting to show extreme 'mothering' behaviours while in heat including obsession over certain toys she considered her 'puppies' and great distress. No false pregnancies per say, but he worried about pyometra and felt very bad that she was going through these psychologically trying episodes!
> The spay went well and solved the problems, however with absolutely no increase in diet (prey model raw) or change in exercise she ballooned in weight almost immediately. I don't think he noticed as it was happening, but when I saw her about a month later, she was 2.5 lbs up (on a normally 5 lb dog) and certainly looked very chubby.
> 
> As Karen has said, this side effect of gaining weight is totally controllable by us owners, but it can definitely sneak up on you. Their weight needs to be managed with less food. If it was me, I would have cut back on her food by close to half immediately after the spay and only gradually increase if I saw that she was losing weight. My son did that after her realized that she was too heavy and she has been on half rations for many months (5-6 maybe?) and is still overweight. It is much easier for them to gain then to lose!


My mini aussie went through the same extreme mothering behaviors, but not ever having kept a female intact, we were unaware of the pyometra threat. All because of my refusal to leave her overnight to be spayed, we almost lost her to pyometra, at which time, they get spayed the hard way, if they survive the surgery. I will not take that chance again. I'll wait until after Abby's first heat. She's 4 1/2 months now, & seems to be starting to check the spot after she pee's now. Never did that before. I'm almost more nervous about getting her rabies shot right now.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Sam I Am said:


> My mini aussie went through the same extreme mothering behaviors, but not ever having kept a female intact, we were unaware of the pyometra threat. All because of my refusal to leave her overnight to be spayed, we almost lost her to pyometra, at which time, they get spayed the hard way, if they survive the surgery. I will not take that chance again. I'll wait until after Abby's first heat. She's 4 1/2 months now, & seems to be starting to check the spot after she pee's now. Never did that before. I'm almost more nervous about getting her rabies shot right now.


I worry about pyo too. I think this is the most compelling reason to spay a female. HOWEVER, it is EXTREMELY rare in a young female. My vet has told me that the risk increases dramatically by the time the female is 6 years old, especially if she has never been bred. I would not spay after the first heat because of a fear of pyo... largely because so many females are not fully mature physically by the time of their first heat. Some have late first heats... Pixel was 14 months at her first heat, so I felt quite confident in scheduling her spay for after that one heat. She was 18 months old when she was spayed. I would NOT schedule a spay for a girl who went in to heat for the first time at 6 or 8 months... And it happens. 

Panda isn't spayed yet because she still may go back in the conformation ring, and because I am not ready to close the door to breeding her. She's a really nice bitch; well bred, well conformed, titled and fully health tested. But I am STILL not sure that I want to do it. But because I am unsure, AND I've talked to my vet and feel confident that she is not (yet) at risk for pyo, she isn't spayed yet. I've come close a couple of times, but have then been talked out of it by people more experienced than I with the statement that, "Once you make that decision, you can never go back."

If I had a PET (only) dog, I would FOR SURE have had her spayed by now... if only so I didn't have to deal with her being in heat. Not because her being in heat is that much of a problem... it's not. But because it is so disruptive to our training and trialing schedule. And I do feel that she has fully benefitted from her adult hormones at this time.


----------



## Sam I Am (Aug 26, 2018)

krandall said:


> I worry about pyo too. I think this is the most compelling reason to spay a female. HOWEVER, it is EXTREMELY rare in a young female. My vet has told me that the risk increases dramatically by the time the female is 6 years old, especially if she has never been bred. I would not spay after the first heat because of a fear of pyo... largely because so many females are not fully mature physically by the time of their first heat. Some have late first heats... Pixel was 14 months at her first heat, so I felt quite confident in scheduling her spay for after that one heat. She was 18 months old when she was spayed. I would NOT schedule a spay for a girl who went in to heat for the first time at 6 or 8 months... And it happens.
> 
> Panda isn't spayed yet because she still may go back in the conformation ring, and because I am not ready to close the door to breeding her. She's a really nice bitch; well bred, well conformed, titled and fully health tested. But I am STILL not sure that I want to do it. But because I am unsure, AND I've talked to my vet and feel confident that she is not (yet) at risk for pyo, she isn't spayed yet. I've come close a couple of times, but have then been talked out of it by people more experienced than I with the statement that, "Once you make that decision, you can never go back."
> 
> If I had a PET (only) dog, I would FOR SURE have had her spayed by now... if only so I didn't have to deal with her being in heat. Not because her being in heat is that much of a problem... it's not. But because it is so disruptive to our training and trialing schedule. And I do feel that she has fully benefitted from her adult hormones at this time.


Yes, Jesse was older when she got pyo, 7. We had chosen smaller dogs because of losing our big dogs by 7 or 8. I'm talking Great Dane, Rottie, Irish Wolfhound big dogs. Thankfully, she is still with us & will be 11 in a few months.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Patti went into Heat 10 days ago. I thought she'd had gone into Heat earlier. She is peeing a lot. When I walk her outside she'll squat and tinkle numerous times. I suppose she's Marking. Since being in Heat she has started occasionally missing the indoor potty tray. If there's poop on the tray I've noticed she will tinkle in front or around the tray. This morning she peed in the same room but a long distance front the tray. I check often to make sure there's no poop on the tray but sometimes I'm surprised to find it. I'm wondering if the potty tray might be too small now that she's gotten bigger, longer. I suppose I'm going to have to keep her on a leash and put her in a crate when not around. Patti doesn't have the run of the house. She's confined to our bedroom or TV room or kitchen where there are potty trays. She's been so good about using them but seems to have gotten lazy. She'll be 9 months in a couple of weeks. Suggestions. Thanks!


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> Patti went into Heat 10 days ago. I thought she'd had gone into Heat earlier. She is peeing a lot. When I walk her outside she'll squat and tinkle numerous times. I suppose she's Marking. Since being in Heat she has started occasionally missing the indoor potty tray. If there's poop on the tray I've noticed she will tinkle in front or around the tray. This morning she peed in the same room but a long distance front the tray. I check often to make sure there's no poop on the tray but sometimes I'm surprised to find it. I'm wondering if the potty tray might be too small now that she's gotten bigger, longer. I suppose I'm going to have to keep her on a leash and put her in a crate when not around. Patti doesn't have the run of the house. She's confined to our bedroom or TV room or kitchen where there are potty trays. She's been so good about using them but seems to have gotten lazy. She'll be 9 months in a couple of weeks. Suggestions. Thanks!


It is rarely "getting lazy" that prevents them from hitting the littler box.

It COULD be that the box is too small for her, but the quick onset and the frequent squatting makes me very suspicious of a UTI. I'd check that out FIRST.

Neither of my girls has missed the litter box or peed inappropriately while they were in heat.


----------



## Scarlett's mom (Feb 14, 2017)

Scarlett did pee in the house a couple of times when her first heat started. She also peed a lot so I ended up taking her to the vet because I thought it was a UTI but it was not. She was much better the second time.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

It might not be a UTI, but it's definitely worth ruling out. It's not something to let go.


----------



## StarrLhasa (Jun 6, 2010)

"Mammary (or breast) tumors are common in female dogs, but rare in male dogs and cats. Surgical removal is recommended for most mammary tumors. Chemotherapy may be required following surgery in some cases. The prognosis is good following surgical resection for most mammary tumors in female dogs, but the prognosis is worse for certain types of tumors in dogs and all mammary tumors in cats.

Of dogs, poodles, dachshunds, and spaniels are most affected. In cats, Siamese or other Oriental breeds and domestic short hairs are most often affected. In dogs, obesity at a young age is a risk factor.

Mammary tumors are more common in female dogs that are either not spayed or were spayed after 2 years of age. The risk of a dog developing a mammary tumor is 0.5% if spayed before their first heat (approximately 6 months of age), 8% after their first heat, and 26% after their second heat. Cats spayed before 6 months of age have a 7-times reduced risk of developing mammary cancer and spaying at any age reduces the risk of mammary tumors by 40% to 60% in cats.

More than a quarter of unspayed female dogs will develop a mammary tumor during their lifetime. The risk is much lower for spayed female dogs, male dogs, and cats of either gender. In female dogs, 50% of mammary tumors are benign and 50% are malignant. However, few of the malignant mammary tumors are fatal. In contrast, over 85% of mammary tumors in cats are malignant and most of these have an aggressive biologic behavior (i.e., mammary tumors in cats tend to be locally invasive and spread elsewhere in the body)."

https://www.acvs.org/small-animal/mammary-tumors


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

StarrLhasa said:


> "Mammary (or breast) tumors are common in female dogs, but rare in male dogs and cats. Surgical removal is recommended for most mammary tumors. Chemotherapy may be required following surgery in some cases. The prognosis is good following surgical resection for most mammary tumors in female dogs, but the prognosis is worse for certain types of tumors in dogs and all mammary tumors in cats.
> 
> Of dogs, poodles, dachshunds, and spaniels are most affected. In cats, Siamese or other Oriental breeds and domestic short hairs are most often affected. In dogs, obesity at a young age is a risk factor.
> 
> ...


All of which is good information, and needs to be weighed by the family for that particular dog. But it doesn't address the problems of early spay/neuter which could swing an owner's decision in the other direction.

Also, the fact that half of those tumors are not malignant reduces the REAL health risk for females spayed later down to about 13%. And JUST like in humans, early detection is key to an effective cure. So make sure you FEEL the mammary area... in boys AND girls, spayed/neutered or intact, REGULARLY. All suspicious lumps or bumps anywhere on the dog should be brought to the attention of the veterinarian and monitored from then on.


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

krandall said:


> It is rarely "getting lazy" that prevents them from hitting the littler box.
> 
> It COULD be that the box is too small for her, but the quick onset and the frequent squatting makes me very suspicious of a UTI. I'd check that out FIRST.
> 
> Neither of my girls has missed the litter box or peed inappropriately while they were in heat.


Thanks! everyone for feed back. The frequent peeing - was - from being in heat. And, Patti is back to not missing the potty tray. She was 8.5 months old when she went into heat. She did have some behavioral changes. Peeing and Humping ...:grin2:

So ... I understand the recommendation is to NOT spay until 18 months.

Ugh~ the first week wasn't much of a problem as she didn't bleed much and kept herself clean. The second week, however, was an experience, I'd rather not repeat.

I had one hell of a Horny Dog that was constantly humping everyone and everything. The third week wasn't as intense but Dear Patti was still in a Humping Mood.

Since she went into heat at 8.5 months ... when would she have another? Or how frequently do these occur? 18 months before spaying ... I'm wondering how many more.

I have a UgoDog and Paw Trax Pads Trays. Sometimes when Patti squats her backend is near the edge, head over the tray. The pee stays inside the tray but poop sometimes lands on the edge or on the floor. Now that she's NO Longer in heat .... I'm not having an issue with frequent peeing and missing the tray.

There are cat/dog little boxes that have sides on three sides which would keep the dog's butt-end inside the tray. The problem with cat litter boxes is they are open and don't have grates on the top of the litter .. Equine Pellets. Patti has been easy to train and I think she would accept the litter box. I've thought about taking one of the grates off the UgoDog or Paw Trap Tray's and making it fit over the litter box. Suggestions? Currently, I have three potty trays she's using and eventually want to get it down to one.

Patti is reliably trained indoor in most rooms of the house, she has access to. We are having a fence installed she'll be able to go outside when she asks. That will probably help during the next heat cycle.


----------



## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I didn't even check the dimensions of this one, but I know some people use a potting tray or cement mixing tray like this: https://smile.amazon.com/Table-Top-...8&qid=1544369932&sr=8-4&keywords=Potting+tray

I didn't do any research into that link, just wanted to show you the shape. But you should be able to find something the right size. You can use your old UgoDog grates, or I know some people use "egg crate" used to cover fluorescent lighting, just cut to the right size.

As far as how often they come into heat? Some are like clockwork, but only they can tell you how often that will be. Others like Panda, are "regularly irregular" her heats have been 6 months, 11 months and 8 months apart. 

While I think it IS important to allow puppy the hormones needed to properly mature, you've already given her the gift of her first heat. Unless your contract says otherwise, I wouldn't see anything wrong in waiting until she is a year, then spaying before her next heat. (don't wait too close till the next time she COULD come in heat!)

There are pros and cons to spay/neuter at ALL ages. You are not talking about spaying a young puppy here. I stand by what I've said in the past... the decision of "when" or "whether" is going to be different for every dog in every family.  Talk to your vet, and make the decision that is best for YOU and PATTI!


----------



## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

krandall said:


> I didn't even check the dimensions of this one, but I know some people use a potting tray or cement mixing tray like this: https://smile.amazon.com/Table-Top-...8&qid=1544369932&sr=8-4&keywords=Potting+tray
> 
> I didn't do any research into that link, just wanted to show you the shape. But you should be able to find something the right size. You can use your old UgoDog grates, or I know some people use "egg crate" used to cover fluorescent lighting, just cut to the right size.
> 
> ...


Again THANK YOU!!! for the heads up and great advice. I'd like to have Patti spayed when she's a year old. That will be in February. I'll take with my vet. And ... I'll be experimenting with the litter box suggestion. It will be a lot cheaper than buy the litter trays and more useful if it works. With the Equine Pellets I could just coop out the dirty parts, unlike the tray that's too cumbersome and all of it needs to be thrown away. Thank You!!!


----------

