# Auction of 2 Havanese Girls on Saturday in Wheaten, MO



## StarrLhasa

In addition to the 2 Havanese females, there are dozens of other purebred dogs that will be auctioned off Saturday, likely to be going to other puppy mills for forced breeding.

"These are two Havanese little girls that will be auctioned off at a dog auction in Wheaton, MO. Web site www.swkennelauction.com. If some one knows anyone who lives near there and can go and buy YES BUY to save them from going from one puppy mill to another please step up and help. All the money that is spent on showing and advertising our show dogs cant someone step up to the plate and pay for these these two girls. If they happen to be real sick it would be better to put them down than go to another puppy mill. This auction is on Sat. Please spread the word and lets work together and save these girls. If you can stomach it read the auction catalog. It is very sad!!!!!! I understand that rescue will not spend any money for buying Havanese in this type of situation but maybe if someone of us can get them they could go to loving homes. I dont know anything about they except what is listed in the catalog. The owners are Country pups,
Thanks for anything anyone can do.
Mary

Havanese
NO# Sex NAME REGISTRATION # D.O.B. SELLER # MICROCHIP #
313 FE Bonnie Mae Beautiful Bouquet OK-ABA-1217160-001 5/6/10 #11 Country Pups 0A01401263
Comments: ACA Reg. Color: Parti-Color, White - Breed sellout.

314 FE Redbud's Bonnie Mae OK-ABA-1217064-001 3/18/06 #11 Country Pups 471A7B4C3A
Comments: ACA Reg. Color: Black, Parti-Color - Breed sellout.

-- 
Mary Benell
Palmkees Keeshonden
Palmbrese Havanese
Brevard Kennel Club-Director
KCA-Info & Breeder Referral Coordinator
Brevard County Animal Advisory Board-Asst. Chair
AKC Legislative Liaison for BKC"


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## TilliesMom

so heartbreaking, I wish I was closer... how can we help?


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## ClaireVoyant

A KENNEL auction??? I've never even heard of such a thing. What a shame


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## Thumper

what?! This goes on?  Should be illegal!!


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## StarrLhasa

TilliesMom said:


> so heartbreaking, I wish I was closer... how can we help?


Tammy:

Being so far away, the only way I know to help is by spreading the word on social network pages so that someone involved in rescue groups or someone who wants to add a dog in need to his/her family can be aware of the auction.

I have read about a number of rescues that purchase dogs being auctioned off to prevent their being sold to another puppy mill. It is so sad.

Because there are so many breeds listed in their catalog, I am hoping that at least some of these dogs get to go to homes of their own.

"A KENNEL auction??? I've never even heard of such a thing. What a shame"

ClaireVoyant:

Sometimes kennels sell off their less than prime breeding stock, older puppies that they have not been able to sell otherwise, and retired breeders. There could be other situations where the kennel itself has been shut down - by the owner(s) retiring and closing the business, by death of the owner(s) and their heirs not wanting to continue the business, or by the authorities.

I tried to look up the name of the business, but it was difficult to pin down. I also was hoping to use the registration numbers, but the ACA registry site does not seem to have a place to look up those numbers.

So, if you are on Facebook or on other dog forums, you can post Mary Bennell's original post the way I did, quoting her. She says everything right there.

Thanks.


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## pjewel

This makes me so sick. I wish I had a lot of money. I would save all of them.


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## Lizzie'sMom

That is so sad. I take everything to heart. Poor Sassi and Zoey and this.

My previous neighbors had a new puppy one day and I asked her where they got her and she said "the auction". I knew cattle was sold at auction, but had no idea dogs were. At least their dog got a good home.


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## morriscsps

How awful. Those poor little souls. 

I have never heard of a dog auction.


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## Ellie NY

I wonder how much these dogs are sold for? One of the females is 6 years old and, although I don't know anything about breeding, I'm wondering if she's not too old. The other female is only 2 years old. 

Maybe if we all donate a small amount we can raise the money the buy these two?


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## Luciledodd

I asked DH if he wanted to go to a dog auction this Sat. Got an emphatic NO. Well I agree with him. I do't go to animal shelters or to orphanages and neither does he. I guess this is something that is done, just haven't heard of it. Probably no different than cattle or horse auctions. Now I know how breeders get so many different breeds of dogs. Something to think about, but nothing that can be done.


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## krandall

There are many dog auctions in Pennsylvania and the midwest. That's were the puppy mills get most of their breeding stock, and also get rid of their dogs that either are too old to be productive enough, or are just not good breeders for other reasons. They want dogs that come in season regularly, catch easily and have good sized litters. If a dog doesn't have these qualities, they are moved on. (the worst places just kill them)

As sad as this is, though, remember that every time someone buys a puppy mill dog, even if it is at auction, they are perpetuating the puppy mill cycle. I know it's very sad when you think of the individual, but think of what harm is done to other dogs for every one that is "saved" by someone purchasing them.


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## pjewel

As much as I know what you're saying is true, if I had the money, I'd save every one of them, because to each one of them, that's the only life that matters. Whatever evil forces brought them into this world, they don't deserve to suffer for it. God bless them.


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## Ellie NY

krandall said:


> There are many dog auctions in Pennsylvania and the midwest. That's were the puppy mills get most of their breeding stock, and also get rid of their dogs that either are too old to be productive enough, or are just not good breeders for other reasons. They want dogs that come in season regularly, catch easily and have good sized litters. If a dog doesn't have these qualities, they are moved on. (the worst places just kill them)
> 
> As sad as this is, though, remember that every time someone buys a puppy mill dog, even if it is at auction, they are perpetuating the puppy mill cycle. I know it's very sad when you think of the individual, but think of what harm is done to other dogs for every one that is "saved" by someone purchasing them.


Great points, Karen. Intellectually I'm fully in agreement. Unfortunately, sometimes emotions get the best of me! :brick: I've been watching way too much Pitbulls and Parolees! I'm also suffering from a huge case of MHS with all the second puppies on the forum.


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## ClaireVoyant

As heart wrenching as it is to turn away . . .i think Karen makes a great point. If everyone suddenly stops supporting these puppy mills with their money, they'll go away. After all, their priority is MONEY, not contributing honorably to the breed. Buying these puppies just perpetuates the problem. So very sad


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## TilliesMom

pjewel said:


> As much as I know what you're saying is true, if I had the money, I'd save every one of them, because to each one of them, that's the only life that matters. Whatever evil forces brought them into this world, they don't deserve to suffer for it. God bless them.


I feel the same Geri... sigh...


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## andra

There is a wonderful movie based on a book by John le Carre' called "The Constant Gardener" and it stars Rachael Weiz and Ralph Fiennes (Rachael Weiz won an Oscar for the role) and it reminds me of this very discussion we are having. Rachael and Ralph play a husband and wife couple, stationed in Kenya, and the wife is involved in humanatarian relief work and the husband is a British diplomat. The husband is very conservative and there is one scene in which he is arguing with his wife; he does not understand why his wife would want to save this one child because saving the one child would not change the bigger problems facing the area she is working in. He keeps stating over and over that her actions do not make a difference and she is insisting that her actions make a difference to the one child in question. As the film progresses, he begins to change his views (as the plot and mystery unfolds) and by the end, HE is trying to save one particular child and he is insisting that this is one that he can help, even though others need help. It is a great movie and my summary does not do it justice 

I dont think, in terms of the bigger picture, it matters one way or the other if a dog is rescued via getting them from an auction....and in fact, HALO does this all the time and they state it on their website. It DOES make a difference to the one or two dogs rescued this way but I dont think it impacts the bigger problem for the better or worse.....because the problem is so vast and multi faceted and complicated that getting dogs from an auction is not going to change the situation at all. If a dog is put up for auction and is not purchased, most likely it will be killed. This has been documented in PA as I read an article about it not that long ago. 

This is just IMHO but since this is a thread that people are expressing their opinions, I am speaking up with mine.  So, I personally would try to get those two female dogs out of the hell that they are in. Unfortunately I am on the east coast far from where the auction is but I would be willing to send somebody money to help get them out.

Again, this is just IMHO and I am really just expressing it here, not wanting to debate or cause any difficulties LOL.


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## TilliesMom

do we HAVE any forum members near the auction??


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## gelbergirl

pjewel said:


> As much as I know what you're saying is true, if I had the money, I'd save every one of them, because to each one of them, that's the only life that matters. Whatever evil forces brought them into this world, they don't deserve to suffer for it. God bless them.


yes, I agree.


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## irnfit

You're ****ed if you and ****ed if you don't. I worked for a very popular no kill shelter. They would always be rescuing puppies from mills, etc. and then just turn around and put them up for "adoption" at the shelter. The adoption fee was a few hundred $$$. So are they rescuing these pups, or just fattening someones wallet?


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## pjewel

I always wonder if the captive were a member of any of our families if we would be as inclined to turn our backs and say don't feed the coffers of the evil doers. I suspect, we would move heaven and earth to pay a ransom, or in some way to make a difference. I think all these innocent souls are part of our greater family and I feel a responsibility to be the voice they don't have.


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## Brady's mom

I am about an hour from Lancaster County, PA. Lancaster County has an abundance of Puppy Mills and auctions. My aunt adopted one of her havs from HALO. They do purchase the dogs at auctions, but they say they do not pay enough for anyone to make any money on it. It certainly wouldn't be enough to keep a puppy miller in business. In my area, there is a rescue called Main Line Animal Rescue. They were on the Oprah show a few years ago to bring attention to Puppy Mills. They do not purchase dogs from puppy mills, but mostly take puppy mill rescues. The owner of the rescue has tried to form relationships with some of the millers (as sick as it makes him). He says he has gotten phone calls from millers telling him to come and pick up the dogs that day or they will shoot them. A lot of it is cultural. Most of the puppy mills in PA are Amish. They see dogs just like they do farm animals.


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## davetgabby

I'd bet with some estimated 10,000 puppymills in the U.S. there's probably one within twenty miles of everyone on this forum. They're currency is pity. It always pays dividends. Until the governments get serious with them they'll survive forever. JMO


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## krandall

The movie is very touching, but it doesn't in any way contribute to the PROBLEM to help a single child, even if you would like to be able to help them all. So it's not the same as "saving" (purchasing) a puppy mill dog. I know Halo does this, and I don't agree with what they are doing either. If I were to get a rescue Hav it would be through HRI, not Halo, specifically for this reason. There are MANY Havs that are available for rescue that do not financially benefit puppy mills.



andra said:


> There is a wonderful movie based on a book by John le Carre' called "The Constant Gardener" and it stars Rachael Weiz and Ralph Fiennes (Rachael Weiz won an Oscar for the role) and it reminds me of this very discussion we are having. Rachael and Ralph play a husband and wife couple, stationed in Kenya, and the wife is involved in humanatarian relief work and the husband is a British diplomat. The husband is very conservative and there is one scene in which he is arguing with his wife; he does not understand why his wife would want to save this one child because saving the one child would not change the bigger problems facing the area she is working in. He keeps stating over and over that her actions do not make a difference and she is insisting that her actions make a difference to the one child in question. As the film progresses, he begins to change his views (as the plot and mystery unfolds) and by the end, HE is trying to save one particular child and he is insisting that this is one that he can help, even though others need help. It is a great movie and my summary does not do it justice
> 
> I dont think, in terms of the bigger picture, it matters one way or the other if a dog is rescued via getting them from an auction....and in fact, HALO does this all the time and they state it on their website. It DOES make a difference to the one or two dogs rescued this way but I dont think it impacts the bigger problem for the better or worse.....because the problem is so vast and multi faceted and complicated that getting dogs from an auction is not going to change the situation at all. If a dog is put up for auction and is not purchased, most likely it will be killed. This has been documented in PA as I read an article about it not that long ago.
> 
> This is just IMHO but since this is a thread that people are expressing their opinions, I am speaking up with mine.  So, I personally would try to get those two female dogs out of the hell that they are in. Unfortunately I am on the east coast far from where the auction is but I would be willing to send somebody money to help get them out.
> 
> Again, this is just IMHO and I am really just expressing it here, not wanting to debate or cause any difficulties LOL.


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## krandall

pjewel said:


> I always wonder if the captive were a member of any of our families if we would be as inclined to turn our backs and say don't feed the coffers of the evil doers. I suspect, we would move heaven and earth to pay a ransom, or in some way to make a difference. I think all these innocent souls are part of our greater family and I feel a responsibility to be the voice they don't have.


But Geri, what about all the innocent souls that are brought into the SAME CIRCUMSTANCES because people don't stand their ground and refuse to support puppy mills?


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## krandall

Brady's mom said:


> I am about an hour from Lancaster County, PA. Lancaster County has an abundance of Puppy Mills and auctions. My aunt adopted one of her havs from HALO. They do purchase the dogs at auctions, but they say they do not pay enough for anyone to make any money on it. It certainly wouldn't be enough to keep a puppy miller in business. In my area, there is a rescue called Main Line Animal Rescue. They were on the Oprah show a few years ago to bring attention to Puppy Mills. They do not purchase dogs from puppy mills, but mostly take puppy mill rescues. The owner of the rescue has tried to form relationships with some of the millers (as sick as it makes him). He says he has gotten phone calls from millers telling him to come and pick up the dogs that day or they will shoot them. A lot of it is cultural. Most of the puppy mills in PA are Amish. They see dogs just like they do farm animals.


I know that there are a number of rescues that maintain relationships with puppy mills, and will take their off-casts without paying for them. I have NO problem with this. If these rescues didn't take them, they would just be shot, clubbed or killed in some other expedient way. This benefits dogs, not puppy mills.


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## Moe's Gram

Karen, just to get clarification - are you saying that HRI NEVER rescues dogs from puppy mills? I was just sitting here with my HRI desktop calendar and the "feature" dogs for this week and last week both say they came to HRI from puppy mills. I guess I am missing something here.


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## krandall

Moe's Gram said:


> Karen, just to get clarification - are you saying that HRI NEVER rescues dogs from puppy mills? I was just sitting here with my HRI desktop calendar and the "feature" dogs for this week and last week both say they came to HRI from puppy mills. I guess I am missing something here.


There is NOTHING wrong with rescuing dogs from puppy mills. IT's BUYING dogs from puppy mills (which Halo does) which contributes to the problem. Sure, Halo doesn't pay full price for the dog. But every dollar that goes INTO a puppy mill keeps it in business that much longer.


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## Moe's Gram

Okay, help me understand this. Apparently I am missing something. HALO BUYS dogs from puppy mills. And puppy mills just GIVE dogs to HRI so they don't have to buy them?!?!?!?!?

PLEASE educate me!!! I am not intending to cause a problem here I just want some clarification. HRI is using pictures and stories of puppies/dogs that they claim are from puppy mills in their calendar.

(Just to be upfront I have fostered for HALO. I also support HRI, buying items from Hav to Hav It store online and buying their calendars.)


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## andra

Krandall, with all due respect, I stated that the movie REMINDED me of this discussion. I *never* stated it was the exact same thing. I was also very clear that this is just IMHO. I am confused as to why you feel the need to argue back.....this is my OPINION, not necessarily fact. Others seem to agree with my opinion and others do not......we have a right to post our opinions, is that correct? I am not interested in debating my opinion with you; I thought this was a place where we could voice our views no matter what they were as long as they did not violate the guidelines of the forum. I am confused about this obviously.


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## lfung5

Moe's Gram said:


> Okay, help me understand this. Apparently I am missing something. HALO BUYS dogs from puppy mills. And puppy mills just GIVE dogs to HRI so they don't have to buy them?!?!?!?!?
> 
> PLEASE educate me!!! I am not intending to cause a problem here I just want some clarification. HRI is using pictures and stories of puppies/dogs that they claim are from puppy mills in their calendar.
> 
> (Just to be upfront I have fostered for HALO. I also support HRI, buying items from Hav to Hav It store online and buying their calendars.)


I could be wrong, but I think HRI rescues Havs that have been seized through puppy mill raids.... I think Halo buys them at auction. I can see both views on this.. It's such a tough situation. Unless someone with power steps in to stop puppymills, they will continue on. I live within an hour of the puppymills capital of Pa! Hate them.


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## heatherk

I agree with Dave. Dealing with puppy mills is like voting libertarian - if enough people voted libertarian, there would be more libertarians in office, just as if enough people stopped buying from puppy mills, they would go out of business (and by the way, I am not libertarian lol, I am just using this as an example). Unfortunately, although we have the right to 'vote' with our actions by either buying or not buying a dog, at this point it really makes absolutely no difference to the mills themselves. We either need to convince everybody to stop buying the dogs, or convince a bigger organization (such as the government) that it is wrong. I don't see the first happening any time soon.


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## krandall

Moe's Gram said:


> Okay, help me understand this. Apparently I am missing something. HALO BUYS dogs from puppy mills. And puppy mills just GIVE dogs to HRI so they don't have to buy them?!?!?!?!?
> 
> PLEASE educate me!!! I am not intending to cause a problem here I just want some clarification. HRI is using pictures and stories of puppies/dogs that they claim are from puppy mills in their calendar.
> 
> (Just to be upfront I have fostered for HALO. I also support HRI, buying items from Hav to Hav It store online and buying their calendars.)


Puppy mill dogs are sometimes given to certain rescues that mills have developed a relationship with. Also, mill puppies (and dogs) are sometimes seized in raids on poorly run puppy mills. These dogs/puppies are not purchased by the rescue groups that take them. Often a rescue group will end up with a mixed lot of puppy mill rescues. They tend to send the ones that are an identifiable breed off to a breed rescue if they can, knowing that these dogs are likely to be placed more quickly with someone looking for that particular breed.

HALO isn't evil or anything... I'm sure they think what they are doing is right. But any time any money goes back to puppy mills, it is just supporting an industry that hurts dogs in the long run.

HRI CERTAINLY has puppy mill dogs among their adoptees, (which is good! These dogs deserve homes too!) but my understanding is that they never purchase these dogs.


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## krandall

heatherk said:


> I agree with Dave. Dealing with puppy mills is like voting libertarian - if enough people voted libertarian, there would be more libertarians in office, just as if enough people stopped buying from puppy mills, they would go out of business (and by the way, I am not libertarian lol, I am just using this as an example). Unfortunately, although we have the right to 'vote' with our actions by either buying or not buying a dog, at this point it really makes absolutely no difference to the mills themselves. We either need to convince everybody to stop buying the dogs, or convince a bigger organization (such as the government) that it is wrong. I don't see the first happening any time soon.


And you have to be VERY careful with the other, because the government doesn't understand dog breeding. So far, most of the laws proposed to "control" dog breeding would shut down the small, home breeders who produce our top quality dogs, while it would do nothing to shut down a "kennel/puppy mill" operation as long as the animals were cared for well from a livestock perspective. i.e., if the dogs were kept in clean kennels with shelter, food and water, the government would say, "This is a "good" dog breeder", even though we know that SO much more goes into producing quality dogs, or providing quality of life for the breeder dogs.

IMO, the BEST way to solve this problem is to continue to educate everyone you can about puppy mills, and where/how to find quality purebreds. If people aren't interested in a quality purebred, send them to a shelter or breed rescue. There are SO many dogs in these places just WAITING for a good home... there is really no reason to be paying a puppy mill for a dog.


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## Moe's Gram

krandall said:


> Puppy mill dogs are sometimes given to certain rescues that mills have developed a relationship with. Also, mill puppies (and dogs) are sometimes seized in raids on poorly run puppy mills. These dogs/puppies are not purchased by the rescue groups that take them. Often a rescue group will end up with a mixed lot of puppy mill rescues. They tend to send the ones that are an identifiable breed off to a breed rescue if they can, knowing that these dogs are likely to be placed more quickly with someone looking for that particular breed.
> 
> HALO isn't evil or anything... I'm sure they think what they are doing is right. But any time any money goes back to puppy mills, it is just supporting an industry that hurts dogs in the long run.
> 
> HRI CERTAINLY has puppy mill dogs among their adoptees, (which is good! These dogs deserve homes too!) but my understanding is that they never purchase these dogs.


Thank you for the explanation!!


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## lfung5

krandall said:


> And you have to be VERY careful with the other, because the government doesn't understand dog breeding. So far, most of the laws proposed to "control" dog breeding would shut down the small, home breeders who produce our top quality dogs, while it would do nothing to shut down a "kennel/puppy mill" operation as long as the animals were cared for well from a livestock perspective. i.e., if the dogs were kept in clean kennels with shelter, food and water, the government would say, "This is a "good" dog breeder", even though we know that SO much more goes into producing quality dogs, or providing quality of life for the breeder dogs.
> 
> IMO, the BEST way to solve this problem is to continue to educate everyone you can about puppy mills, and where/how to find quality purebreds. If people aren't interested in a quality purebred, send them to a shelter or breed rescue. There are SO many dogs in these places just WAITING for a good home... there is really no reason to be paying a puppy mill for a dog.


The problem here is you can educate everyone, but you still have people that refuse to pay 2000.00 for a havanese. They want a havanese, but can only afford to pay 500.00.......It's a nice thought trying to educate everyone, but laws against puppymills would have a greater impact. Easier said then done!!


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## Brady's mom

HRI does not purchase dogs from puppy mills. The dogs they get from puppy mills are usually adults, not puppies. The millers are ready to get rid of them in any way possible. The puppies usually sell. I go back and forth on how I feel about HALO paying for dogs. As I said, I know they don't pay much, but they do give the miller some money. Sadly, if they didn't, many of these puppies would be shot or put down in some inhumane way. They don't care about the dogs and just want them out of their hair. Once they are of no use to them, they just want to move on. Check out Main Line Animal Rescues website. www.mlar.com. There is a lot of information on puppy mills and their mission to save the dogs. They do not purchase them, but get them from relationships they have formed with the millers.


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## krandall

lfung5 said:


> The problem here is you can educate everyone, but you still have people that refuse to pay 2000.00 for a havanese. They want a havanese, but can only afford to pay 500.00.......It's a nice thought trying to educate everyone, but laws against puppymills would have a greater impact. Easier said then done!!


I agree with you, Linda. It's not easy. But I still try to educate at every chance I get! The interesting thing is there ARE a lot of people who WANT to do the right thing, but just don't know any better. I've been able to talk several of these people into finding a good breeder to buy a dog from once they understand the puppy mill/pet store connection. These haven't all bee people looking for a Hav, but people looking for pure bred dogs of a number of breeds.


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## pjewel

krandall said:


> But Geri, what about all the innocent souls that are brought into the SAME CIRCUMSTANCES because people don't stand their ground and refuse to support puppy mills?


So, are you suggesting that people who rescue dogs at these auctions, who have lived (possibly their whole lives) in an abusive situation will have an impact on whether or not puppy mills thrive? I'd call that naive. These poor souls have a chance, for a brief moment in time, to live out the rest of their lives in peace, knowing love. I would give them that opportunity in a heartbeat. So, if in your mind, I'd be advancing the world of puppy mills ( about which I would argue vehemently), so be it. In my world, I would be giving an animal, or if able, animals a chance at a "normal" life.


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## Jill in Mich

I can intellectually understand the theory of saying it's better for puppy mill owners to destroy their unwanted/unsold breeders/puppies until I look at the reality of my Tess and the adorable, loving fosters I cared for. What a loss if no one had been willing to step in and make sure those animals had the opportunity for a better life. 

It's my understanding that a puppy mill owner very rarely gives away their unwanted dogs. It doesn't make good business sense for them since it drives down the price. And until the laws are changed, there will be a puppy mills. Who are we kidding, even if the laws change, there will be puppy mills, they'll just be illegal. And unfortunately, no matter how loudly we shout it, nor how frequently, odds are there will always be a market for mills to sell to. 

Even if I agreed with the theory, I couldn't walk away from an auction without doing everything I could, and spend every dollar I had, to save every one of those animals from spending their lives in a cage as a mill breeder, being loaded onto a semi truck to be shipped cross country to a pet store or, if not sold, taken out back to be drowned or shot.

Somebody else is going to have to save the world. I need to take care of the reality in front of me.


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## pjewel

I think I love you Jill. Who am I kidding, I know I love you.

Oh, and BTW, ditto!


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## Jill in Mich

pjewel said:


> I think I love you Jill. Who am I kidding, I know I love you.
> 
> Oh, and BTW, ditto!


Hah! Right back at 'ya Geri! We posted at the same time. Hugs & kisses from Tess for sticking up for her. This happens to be a topic near and dear to her heart.


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## pjewel




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## andra

You wrote what is in my heart. I don't know you, but know that you have a kindered spirit here, too.


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## bellapico

Jill in Mich said:


> I can intellectually understand the theory of saying it's better for puppy mill owners to destroy their unwanted/unsold breeders/puppies until I look at the reality of my Tess and the adorable, loving fosters I cared for. What a loss if no one had been willing to step in and make sure those animals had the opportunity for a better life.
> 
> It's my understanding that a puppy mill owner very rarely gives away their unwanted dogs. It doesn't make good business sense for them since it drives down the price. And until the laws are changed, there will be a puppy mills. Who are we kidding, even if the laws change, there will be puppy mills, they'll just be illegal. And unfortunately, no matter how loudly we shout it, nor how frequently, odds are there will always be a market for mills to sell to.
> 
> Even if I agreed with the theory, I couldn't walk away from an auction without doing everything I could, and spend every dollar I had, to save every one of those animals from spending their lives in a cage as a mill breeder, being loaded onto a semi truck to be shipped cross country to a pet store or, if not sold, taken out back to be drowned or shot.
> 
> Somebody else is going to have to save the world. I need to take care of the reality in front of me.


I think I love you too and I know you even less. I think it is noble to "educate" people on the evil of puppy mills but the reality is that I would rather know that I saved a life, a real tangible being. We all must do what feels right individually, morally and ethically for us. The key here is that we all have the same belief system, which is puppy mills are quite evil and they suck but we all take different steps in dealing with it. Opinions are fine and most importantly respecting individual differences and perspective is GREAT. You are a wise woman.


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## heatherk

pjewel said:


> So, are you suggesting that people who rescue dogs at these auctions, who have lived (possibly their whole lives) in an abusive situation will have an impact on whether or not puppy mills thrive? I'd call that naive. These poor souls have a chance, for a brief moment in time, to live out the rest of their lives in peace, knowing love. I would give them that opportunity in a heartbeat. So, if in your mind, I'd be advancing the world of puppy mills ( about which I would argue vehemently), so be it. In my world, I would be giving an animal, or if able, animals a chance at a "normal" life.


Geri, if you read more deeply into my response above, I was agreeing with this same sentiment, while trying to keep out of any heated debates about this issue. I've now realized that I have to actually say in no uncertain terms what I feel.

I have the utmost respect for Karen, and also, for what she (and many others who feel the same) are trying to do. But as I said before, the bottom line is, restraining me or you or most of the people we know from rescuing a single dog or two, or even two hundred or two thousand or even more dogs, makes absolutely NO difference to the puppy mills themselves. They deal with numbers much greater than that. So, refusing to buy these dogs right now makes little to no difference in the long run for puppy mill dogs in general, but can and could make a world of difference for the dogs rescued.

I really don't see us able any time soon being to convince everybody not to buy from mills and auctions like this. And yet I also do see Karen's point, that to get the government to deal with it, will be a tricky situation as well. In the meantime however, buying/rescuing a dog from a situation like this auction really causes no harm (Sorry Karen, but IMHO it really doesn't matter - it's a single libertarian vote in a nation of democrats and republicans) but on a real humanitarian level, yes, it can make all the difference to the poor dog in question, who never had a choice or a vote as to how she should be able to live her life.

Which of course doesn't address the larger problem, which is what Karen was trying to address. And, that is a question that NEEDS to be addressed, especially if we knowingly purchase a dog from a puppy mill or auction. I don't know the answer, but, I know that an answer or solution of some sort is out there somewhere. I guess my point is, if some forum members want to rescue these two havs, all the much more power to them. But they, and the rest of us, should be thinking about how to *really* effect a change with regards to puppy mills in general. The argument should not be about saving a single dog or two, but rather, about what to do that can really make a difference in the larger sense.

-just my opinion (though I feel pretty strongly about it lol).

-Heather


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## lfung5

pjewel said:


> So, are you suggesting that people who rescue dogs at these auctions, who have lived (possibly their whole lives) in an abusive situation will have an impact on whether or not puppy mills thrive? I'd call that naive. These poor souls have a chance, for a brief moment in time, to live out the rest of their lives in peace, knowing love. I would give them that opportunity in a heartbeat. So, if in your mind, I'd be advancing the world of puppy mills ( about which I would argue vehemently), so be it. In my world, I would be giving an animal, or if able, animals a chance at a "normal" life.


This is exactly how I got Bella. I had no idea the person I bought Bella from bought her at puppymill. This woman thought she was saving puppies and giving them a better life. She did have some havanese she bred, but when people came along looking for a puppy she didn't have, she would find one.....She also charged full price!! When I bought Bella 7 years ago, I didn't even know what a puppymill was. It wasn't until after Bella had so many medical issues, I started looking into the woman I purchased her from. She finally admitted she was just trying to help these pups. She lived in a puppymill state and felt bad for them. This woman truly cared about the pups she felt she was saving. When Bella needed liver surgery, she gave me all my $1750.00 back, to cover some of Bella surgery.....I admired her for that.


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## pjewel

And how lucky Bella was to find herself in your loving home and arms. I certainly understand the motivation of the person who initially rescued her. What I have a bit of a harder time with is her profiting from the rescue. In the end, she did the right thing . . . and Bella has a wonderful life.


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## lfung5

pjewel said:


> And how lucky Bella was to find herself in your loving home and arms. I certainly understand the motivation of the person who initially rescued her. What I have a bit of a harder time with is her profiting from the rescue. In the end, she did the right thing . . . and Bella has a wonderful life.


Yes, I agree......

I also think, people who buy pups from her should know where they are coming from. Bella has cost me a fortune in medical bills. She might need back surgery now....What if someone bought her who couldn't afford her medical bills.......Poor little Bella. I'm just happy I can provide for her.


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## irnfit

So, does anyone know if they were rescued?!


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## Suzi

lfung5 said:


> Yes, I agree......
> 
> I also think, people who buy pups from her should know where they are coming from. Bella has cost me a fortune in medical bills. She might need back surgery now....What if someone bought her who couldn't afford her medical bills.......Poor little Bella. I'm just happy I can provide for her.


 I'm happy she has you too. My Maddie is from a large backyard breeder. I didn't know it tell later when I see adds almost every weekend. She has cost us over a thousand dollars in medical bills. I think their should be a limit to how many dogs a breeder can own. And that the bitch doesn't have more than 20 pups. It would all have to be regulated somehow. I even think some reputable breeders have way to many dogs. I know there is a huge demand for Havanese right now. Yes people just need to be educated and yes if I had the money I would have gone and rescued the three at the auction.


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## StarrLhasa

irnfit said:


> So, does anyone know if they were rescued?!


I haven't heard anything yet. I have had my fingers crossed that they made it out of milldom.


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## pjewel

I pray that they did. I was busy working all day yesterday but they were on my mind all day.


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## StarrLhasa

I wish there was a way to find out who bought the dogs. I am sure the auction company would not supply that information.


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## andra

My birthday was on Valentines day and I informed my hubby, when he asked me about my birthday and Valentine's day gifts, that I wanted him to make a donation to HALO in our name and so he did  

This situation has been on my mind, too, and I hope those little girls were rescued and spared a life that is to horrific to contemplate.


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## StarrLhasa

Awww, Andra, Happy Belated Birthday, and what a wonderful gift! That i so thoughtful. Maybe we will read on Halo's website that the two girls are in their foster care.


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## StarrLhasa

I do not want to add to the controversy, but....

Last week HALO went to an auction of an Oklahoma puppy mill that was closing and managed to buy 30 of the 33 Havanese on the auction block. The group saved these dogs from going to another puppy mill, and I applaud their efforts. The closing puppy mill will not be using the proceeds for breeding more dogs the way an ongoing mill might.

Many of the dogs are young puppies, and there are also a number of pregnant females. As far as I know, the group managed to find enough foster homes for all these dogs, but it may be that some fosters took more than they originally wanted in order to ensure that every dog would be cared for as soon as they reached Indianapolis.

Here is a link to HALO's Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/25525703631/

The adult dogs have been bathed and may have been to the Vet for exams and treatment. All the dogs are in quarantine for a couple of weeks.


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## andra

Thank you for the heads up about this. I hope the three that HALO were not able to rescue got rescued by somebody else. I may contact them to see if I can help in any way.


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## StarrLhasa

Any and all help will be appreciated, volunteer (if you are in the area) or monetary. The medical and dental costs alone will be significant.

Here is a link to HALO's website for more information beyond Facebook: http://www.rescuedhavanese.org/Howtohelp.html

Thanks, Andra!


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## StarrLhasa

The adults and puppies are doing well. Some of the pregnant females have since delivered. The people of HALO are awesome. 

As a matter of fact, the people of HRI are awesome, too. Two of the mill dogs have gone to HRI fosters.

As of this afternoon, there are 7 pending adoptions. One of the new Moms a self-styled Crazy Dog Lady, is picking up her puppy tomorrow.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor

Are these auctions held in Wheaton often?


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## StarrLhasa

Flynn, I really do not know how often they have these auctions in Wheaton. The mill was in Oklahoma, so maybe this is the auction's main office? 

Last week, there was another auction in Ohio, and HALO brought back 4 more dogs. As of Wednesday, they were looking for fosters for 2 of them. I do not know if they still need foster homes (I have asked and am awaiting a response.).


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## LuckyOne

This makes me so sad and mad! It should be illegal!!!


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