# Joint issues?



## kudo2u (Mar 7, 2009)

This is long, sorry....

How prone are Havs to hip problems as they age? I had a German Shepard with hip displaysia years ago, but I thought those types of things were basically limited to larger breeds.

Tango is 13(ish) and started acting like her back legs were bothering her last winter (about 1.5 yrs ago). No injuries, nothing unusual happened to her, it was almost like arthritis in that the weather changed and that seemed to impact her. She's timid about jumping up onto furniture (sudden change), she's grumpy with the other dogs (sudden change), and she doesn't run around near as much as she used to.

Took her to the vet last winter when this started. They did not take x-rays, as they determined it was unnecessary at the time. Ruled out a lot of things - luxating patellas, any type of break/fracture, etc. Said it was most likely a form of arthritis. Gave me the option of treating the symptoms and keeping an eye on her, or going ahead with x-rays and blood work.

At that point, we had just completed blood work about 2 months prior (for her normal exam), so I opted to just treat the symptoms. She's been on joint supplement ever since, and we have metacam on-hand for "bad" days. And there are DEFINITELY bad days vs. good days.

Took her in 6 months ago for her normal appointment, and there had basically been no change. She had VERY good days, the majority of time she was OK, and occasionally she had a bad day, where she was grumpy and wouldn't let anyone but me near her. Those days I treated her with metacam, and within about an hour she would be OK again. Bad days are VERY sparse - we filled a prescription of 12 doses of metacam and actually had to throw some out and go back for a new prescription, as we was remaining had expired.

Last couple of days have been overcast and rainy here. This morning, she was definitely uncomfortable. She is moving around just fine, but won't jump on furniture, not even "her" spot on the sofa. She keeps pulling one back leg up, then the other. Like she doesn't want to put any weight on her back end. I gave her some metacam and set an appointment to have her x-rayed and full bloodwork in the morning.

Just wondering if anyone else with older Havs has experienced anything like this? Could it be hip displaysia? Arthritis? What would that mean as far as quality of life, longevity, etc? I would just like to have some basis for a discussion with the vet before we get there in the morning.

Thanks everyone!


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I would probably take her to get her hips done so you know and have peace of mind. I know a Hav with LCP so there are definitely hip issues in the breed. I think with little dogs, we don't notice them as much. She is older so I would keep her on joint supplement (I have my maltese on it and she is a lot younger)

ETA- the dog I know is middle age and seems happy. She had surgery but she can't walk as long but will stop and make you carry her when she gets tired. But I think she still has a good quality of life.

The things you mentioned also could be associated with her vision, just something to consider as well.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I have no info but just wanted to offer support. It is so hard to see things go wrong with our furkids. They try to communicate but it would so much easier if they could talk.


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## kudo2u (Mar 7, 2009)

Yes, it breaks my heart to watch her. She's SOOOO sweet and has overcome so much in her fluffy little life. 

Her vision is starting to fade, but she is definitely in pain sometimes in her back end. It really is hard to see her try to walk, and limp first on one foot then the other.

I'm definitely getting the x-rays tomorrow, and a full exam. Hopefully it's something that can be cured, or at least treated. I just can't stand to see her uncomfortable.

Thanks for your warm thoughts and support. I'll let you know what the vet says tomorrow.


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang (May 21, 2007)

Tango will definitely be in my thoughts tomorrow. I hope the vet has some encouraging news for you after her exam.

As far as quality of life, longevity, etc., only you and Tango can make that call. I think you will know when it's her time. If it is arthritis, focus on keeping her as comfortable as possible. Supplements might help. 

We're going through the same thing with my sister's 12-1/2 year old Akita. His back end is giving out and he's showing signs of Canine Cognitive Disorder. Still, he enjoys his favorite pastimes and trying to sneak food off the table. As long as his good days outnumber the bad, we're behind him 100%. For his hips we're giving him GlycoFlex III, which I order online via KV Vet. It has helped to keep him mobile. There are a ton of joint supplements out there, so you should be able to find something that works for Tango.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I'm sorry to hear Tango is having trouble like this. The only other thing I wanted to mention is that if you live in an area where Lyme is endemic, and she hasn't been tested for it, you should ask the vet to do do so. Lyme also causes lameness in all sorts of places. 

It can be treated with antibiotics, and that will stop further joint deterioration, and often make the animal (or person!) more comfortable. However, if they've had it long enough, the joint problems can become chronic.


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## kudo2u (Mar 7, 2009)

So I'm home from the vet. Yes, just me. Tango had to stay for the day. Remember when I said she feel about 1.5 years ago? Well, it likely caused a small tear in her ACL on her left hind leg.

Now that it's gone so long, her ACL is completely ruptured. She has massive swelling, and the vet was shocked that she was able to walk at all.

I feel SOOOOOO bad. How could I not have noticed this for over a year?!?

Well, actually I did notice. She's been limping off and on the whole time. I just couldn't bear to see it anymore.

The only things I can find comfort in are that she's been to the vet 3 times now since the fall (for regular checkups and to have her teeth cleaned) and this wasn't discovered. So obviously it's gotten worse recently, or it would have been diagnosed sooner.

And the second thing is the vet was actually in shock at how well Tango was behaving. Vet was manipulating her back leg, and Tango just lay there. No flinching, no sound, not even a tiny wiggle. The vet said that she's never been able to do that unless a dog was under sedation. Apparently it's incredibly painful.

So Tango has been in probably extreme pain for months now, and just never even let me know. 

I did give her Metacam on the really bad days....which meant she didn't want to jump onto her "spot" on the sofa, or that she was limping a little after breakfast. The rest of the time things seemed OK.

But I can't even begin to describe how horrible I feel.

They are keeping her to do x-rays. They need to determine if surgery is even an option at this point. It might be so bad that surgery won't even fix it anymore. I'm not really sure what our options would be at that point. But I should have her back home today, so I'll keep you all posted.

My poor baby Tango!!! :Cry::Cry::Cry::Cry:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Poor Tango, and poor you!!! But don't beat yourself up over it... it sounds like she hid her symptoms very well. From what you posted before, I would have thought it was just an ageing issue too. 

We'll be keeping fingers and toes crossed for both of you!:grouphug:


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## mintchip (Apr 19, 2007)

:grouphug:Tango and family :grouphug:


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## mimismom (Feb 15, 2009)

Sending hugs to you and Tango.


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## iluvhavs (Jul 21, 2008)

{{{{hugs}}}} Poor baby, both you and Tango. I'm sure everything will work out. Sounds like Tango is a real trooper.

I always have an issue with whether I'm over-reacting and running to the vet too soon, or going to the vet when there is no major issues. better safe than sorry I guess.


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## kudo2u (Mar 7, 2009)

Thanks for all of the warm wishes everyone.

Now that we have x-rays, I'm even more confused.

She has a little arthritis in both hips (rear), a little in her right knee, and a bit more in her left (injured) knee. There is significant swelling in the left knee, and they showed me out out of alignment everything really is.

Surgery is definitely an option. It would cost around $1,600 and recovery time would be about 6 weeks. They would drill a hole in her femur, run a wire through the hole, then wrap it around the lower leg bone (don't know what it's called?) like 40 times. Basically make a "new" ACL. She will develop some arthritis in that knee, but it would hopefully be minimal, and basically develop along the "new" ACL wire.

But we don't HAVE to go with surgery. Apparently the ACL is something that can repair/regrow. The thing that's kept it from doing so all this time is the amount of swelling present. So if we can control the swelling, the leg will "repair" itself. This would be about a 9-12 month healing process. She would have to remain on a daily dose of Metacam this entire time, and we would x-ray every 3 months to monitor progress. If it doesn't heal properly within the next year, we'll have to go with surgery in the end, anyway. We would need to keep her as sedentary as possible this entire time to help it heal (no play dates, no walks, as little movement from the knee as possible). Additionally, there is a high chance that she will develop severe arthritis in the knee over time, potentially even crippling her at some point in the future.

The biggest thing is that we aren't really sure how old she is. The vet said if she were 8 or 9, they would strongly recommend surgery. But if she were 14 or 14, they would be more likely to suggest we wait it out and see if it heals properly on its own.

We think she's around 13. But we're not entirely sure. Her teeth are HORRIBLE and look to belong to a dog who is at least that age, possible older. But her bloodwork each year has come back just wonderful. And based on the x-rays taken yesterday, her joints are more in line with a healthy 9-10 year old dog.

But she was kept in a crate the first several years of her life (at least 4, possibly more). So would that make her joints look better due to lack of use (less wear and tear than most dogs her age)? 

So how many years would she have to live with an arthritic leg? Would it be just a couple of months because she's older than we think? Or would it be years, becoming more and more painful as she ages, because she's actually younger than we think?

I'm so confused! I don't know what the right decision is. I wish we could see the outcome of either choice. Or at least know for certain how old she is, so we have a good starting point for a decision. I just don't know what to do.....


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Boy, that's a tough one. Did the vet give you any indication of what they would suggest? I like to ask them what they would do if it was THEIR dog.

Based on what you've said, though, I think if it were me, I'd go for the surgery with the 6 week lay-up. Keeping her quiet for an entire year in HOPES that it will heal (and then maybe needing to decide on surgery when she's even older) sounds miserable for you AND for her. 

Little dogs can live a long time. Even if she's 13, she could have several good years left in her. I'd hate to see those years spent in pain if you could avoid it.

But, in the end, you are her "mom", and you need to decide what is best for her. :grouphug:


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## Jill in Mich (Feb 24, 2008)

Karen's right that's a really tough choice. I'm sorry you have to go through all of this. I think I would go through with the surgery also. My thinking would be that I would much prefer to deal with 6-10 weeks of recovery rather than 9-12 months. 

Haven't I read/heard that frequently rescued/mill dogs are estimated to be much older than they actually are because their teeth are usually in such bad shape?


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

So sorry and sending you a hug first. If you are unsure you may want to get a few options. It is amazing how in the moment dogs can truly live. I know someone who her dog tore his ACL then ended up tearing the other one too. The second one was not as bad (it wasn't totally torn) and they opted to leave the dog in a brace and crate rest for several weeks. It was due to his age and the previous surgery that they decided it was going to be for the better.


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## kudo2u (Mar 7, 2009)

Thanks everyone.

I had not heard about puppy mill dogs being "aged" incorrectly due to the poor quality of their teeth. It does make sense, though. And Tango's teeth really are horrible. When I had them cleaned in October, they removed 3 more. Poor thing.

As for injuring the other knee, the vet said that's one of the risks of not having the surgery. Apparently a really high percentage of dogs who do not have the surgery end up blowing the other knee. I guess the use it more as they compensate for the knee that is hurting?

I did ask my vet what she would do if it were her dog. We've had the same vet for about 8 years now. We have a good relationship and she's usually VERY straight with me. In this case, she actually said she didn't know. Which I think is where much of my confusion is coming from! Usually she can present me with a case either for or against whatever we're facing, then I question her to death until I understand why she would make that decision. Hey, it works for us.  But in this case, with the vet not even knowing.....I just don't know what to do!

I guess on the bright side, I'm stressing over a knee. Not over a heart condition, or a bad liver, or.....


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## Narwyn (Jan 24, 2010)

So it's been about a week and I'm not sure if you've made a choice BUT --- I was in the EXACT SAME situation last November!

Clover (who turned 13 in April) was a bit off on his knee here and there for years, then one day chasing around a client dog he screeched and came up limping. Ok, he's kind of dramatic, so I was giving him aspirin for two days... well then I got H1N1, was in the hospital... when I was finally a 'real person' again two weeks later he was still limping so I took him to my vet. She did a drawer test and immediately said torn CCL (same thing as an ACL just called a different thing in dogs). She recommended surgery with an orthopedic vet. I got a second opinion at my old vet clinic in MA who also recommended surgery. No XRays or anything because it's hard to see soft tissue on XRays, they can tell off a drawer (tibial thrust) test.

I agonized for about a month on the same things you did - that in less active small dog with a smaller tear you can rest it to recover. Well I rested him aggressively (in a pen or on the sofa next to me) for a month and saw no improvement. I knew he was just not a happy dog not being able to jump or chase his ball, and I couldn't ask him to limp for the rest of his life, so I got a new credit card (lol) and got the surgery.

The problem with CCL surgery isn't that you don't really know how bad it is until you're in there. In Clover's case, he had 100% ruptured the CCL and twisted around his meniscus and there was just NO WAY that was going to improve without surgery. He likely partially ruptured it years ago and it always hurt. The vet was amazed he was even limping on that leg, said most dogs would have held it up and hopped. Yikes.

Had surgery done in mid-December. Poor guy came home in a cast, looked like a Lowchen for awhile with the shaved leg, we had a setback around 11 weeks out with water in his knee... it was a long road. But today he is WAY BETTER than he was not only before surgery, but for YEARS before the surgery. He walks longer, runs better, is back to jumping up into my car. And yes, he had the procedure you described. My pic of him in the water is 5 month post-op.

To me, if she's on Metacam, it sounds like that's serious pain and I would really consider the surgery. If it makes you feel better do what I did... give it 4-6 weeks of serious rest, no jumping, keep her in an ex-pen when you can't watch her, no walking expect outside to pee quickly. If you see no improvement... look at her quality of life with a limp, but, I'd really consider the surgery if she is otherwise healthy. 

And although you know and trust your vet, get a second opinion. It made me feel better. Also, I got estimates from both vets. The Orthopedic vet was estimating $1600-2000 and actually was more familiar with the more invasive (and unnecessary for small dog) TPLO procedure. The second vet was a "General Practitioner" style vet and surgeon who has been doing this repair on dogs 2-3 times a week for decades. His quote was $900-1200. You can bet that if I truly believed the extra $1000 would have gotten him a better surgery I would have paid it -- but heck, I'm pretty sure I got a better surgeon for less money!! 

Feel free to message me or email me (Narwyn at gmail dot com) if you have more questions or need a sympathetic ear. Trust me, I get it.


~Kat


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## kudo2u (Mar 7, 2009)

Kat, thanks for sharing that! We have made a decision. Not sure it's the *right* decision, but I guess we'll never know....

We're going to keep her on Metacam for 6 months, then do a second set of x-rays and measure progress.

The Metacam actually is not for pain. It's a non-steriodal anti-inflammatory. No pain relief at all. We have a separate prescription for pain medication to give as needed. I've been monitoring her (very closely) this past week, and we haven't given any pain meds at all. If we have to start giving them, I'll probably reconsider the decision to wait.

We actually can see the damage in the x-rays. We can see the tear, how big it is, etc. We can see where arthritis has begun to form, and how it compares to the other leg.

She's pretty calm anyway, so keeping her off the leg will not be much of an issue. She won't play with toys (no matter how hard I try). She won't RLH (only has a couple of times during her entire life). She won't play with the other dogs - she runs and hides in her "safe" spot when they start to wrestle and play. 

She loves to be cuddles, loves to be groomed, loves to just be wherever I am. Without her daily walk (which we've cut out) and without her weekly trip to day care, she literally only moves about 1,000 feet a day. No joke. But that's not due to her knee - she's always been that way.

All this to say, we're going to wait and do a comparative x-ray in 6 months. If things are healing and look significantly better, we'll wait another 6 months and do another x-ray. If there is little or no progress, we'll opt for surgery at that time.


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