# Any Lowchen owners here?



## El Bueno Habanero (Oct 20, 2009)

Hallo all,

Today I saw two dogs at the park and I thought they where hava's, only to learn that they are Lowchens - Little Lion Dogs. They look soooo much like a havanese! Their owner even told me that they share some lines with hava's. 
No, I'm not thinking of getting one lol, just curious what are they like personality wise? Anyone ever owned one? I love to learn about dog breeds, and this is the one I don't no much about.

:wave:


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

El Bueno Habanero said:


> Hallo all,
> 
> Today I saw two dogs at the park and I thought they where hava's, only to learn that they are Lowchens - Little Lion Dogs. They look soooo much like a havanese! Their owner even told me that they share some lines with hava's.
> No, I'm not thinking of getting one lol, just curious what are they like personality wise? Anyone ever owned one? I love to learn about dog breeds, and this is the one I don't no much about.
> ...


 I remember looking them up on google when I read they were part of the Havanese background.I think the one I saw had a funny hair cut at that time Maddie had lost a bunch of hair on her rear end and reminded me of her


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## Narwyn (Jan 24, 2010)

I don't own but showed a few. They are taller than Havs - a little bit less sturdy but not fine, more square, and actually have pretty different faces (round eyes, etc). And yes, show dogs have that fabulous lion cut! 

I found they were more active and a little more independent than Havs. Still very nice companions, but a little bit less 'soft' and velcro-y. Maybe a little bit smarter than most Havs... not as blinded by love! 

There is some debate as to if Lowchen are related to the Bichon family or not, but ultimatey, they're probably the German version of the toy dog (Havanese being the Cuban version, Shih Tzus being the Chinese version, Maltese being the, well Maltese version).


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Flynn had a Lowchen. I'm sure she'll weigh in.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

HeHe I thought at first that Yogi was a Lowchen, he is not. I have had more then one Hav breeder and a couple of Lowchen breeders look at him. The reason I thought this, is he is about 12 to 12 1/2 inchs tall. Most Havs I see are on the small side. In Yogi's obedience class there are two Lowchens, they do have round eyes, their face looks different and they're more muscular. The Lowchens in class are calm but like to play and are very good in all sports.

I have one comment I respect Narwyn's experience showing dogs as a handler. I use to show Shih Tzu's and breed them in the eighty's and was with a very large show breeder, I have lived in both China and India. Shih Tzus are not a member of the Bichon family and it is believed that they are a cross between Lhasa Apso's and Pekinese. Also as a matter of amusement in the eastern part of the world India and Tibet they beleave Tibetan terriers and Lhasa Apsos were once the same dog. It is believed the small dogs were taken into the monastary and became watch dogs and the larger ones stayed out and herded Yaks. The feet on the Shih Tzu do not look anything like a Maltese or a Hav, their feet are cat like and of course they are brachicephalic. Just my point of view.


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## JMGracie (Mar 30, 2011)

I'm not an expert on them for sure, but I remember reading about them during my search for a puppy a few years back. I think they're generally considered part of the Bichon family (which includes Havanese, Bichon Frise, Maltese, Coton de Tulear, and a few others). There's some question of whether they're related or not, but they share a lot of the same traits both physically, and with their personality. So I would think the general Bichon personality traits would hold true - friendly, playful, loyal, smart, etc.

More info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bichon


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## El Bueno Habanero (Oct 20, 2009)

Narwyn said:


> ...a little bit less 'soft' and velcro-y. Maybe a little bit smarter than most Havs... not as blinded by love!


Smarter than most Havs?  Then they must be really smart...no way! LOL
I love the fact that havs are considered a 'soft' dogs, mine sure is. It's enough to say his name to stop him from whatever he is doing. Yelling is never necessary and I appreciate this about havs. I love to be friends with my dog and not a boss.

I have found one interesting character thread on a Lowchen forum...I must say that I don't like what I read here: http://lowchen.org.uk/index.php/topic,26.0.html
One of the reasons I love havs so much is that it seems they don't know what aggression means . Sure there will always be some exceptions to the rules, but in general I found this to be true for havs. Havanese Club Netherlands organizes hava walks two times a year, and I've never seen dogs getting in fight with each other like some terrier breeds e.g. They're very tolerant toward other dogs, especially other havs. Fedja's life philosophy would be 'live and let live' :biggrin1:.


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## trueblue (Jan 22, 2008)

The Laughing Magpie said:


> HeHe I thought at first that Yogi was a Lowchen, he is not. I have had more then one Hav breeder and a couple of Lowchen breeders look at him. The reason I thought this, is he is about 12 to 12 1/2 inchs tall. Most Havs I see are on the small side. In Yogi's obedience class there are two Lowchens, they do have round eyes, their face looks different and they're more muscular. The Lowchens in class are calm but like to play and are very good in all sports.
> 
> I have one comment I respect Narwyn's experience showing dogs as a handler. I use to show Shih Tzu's and breed them in the eighty's and was with a very large show breeder, I have lived in both China and India. Shih Tzus are not a member of the Bichon family and it is believed that they are a cross between Lhasa Apso's and Pekinese. Also as a matter of amusement in the eastern part of the world India and Tibet they beleave Tibetan terriers and Lhasa Apsos were once the same dog. It is believed the small dogs were taken into the monastary and became watch dogs and the larger ones stayed out and herded Yaks. The feet on the Shih Tzu do not look anything like a Maltese or a Hav, their feet are cat like and of course they are brachicephalic. Just my point of view.


Just curious. Did you find shih tzu's to be stubborn? My Sushi is 4 years old, and I swear he is the most stubborn old man dog there is. So I'm just wondering if that is typical of the breed, or if he's an oddball. I love him to pieces, but he is such an old man.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Narwyn said:


> Maybe a little bit smarter than most Havs... not as blinded by love!


Hey, now wait a minute... I thought Havs were the smartest dogs in the world!:wink:


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

krandall said:


> Hey, now wait a minute... I thought Havs were the smartest dogs in the world!:wink:


ound: Actually, the smartest dogs I've had were poodles! My DD couldn't believe I got a Havanese instead of a poodle. She said "Mom, you are just "so" a poodle person.......lol I told her the Hav was for it's gentle nature with "her" children!!!

Of course, you all know I'm getting another Hav very shortly - we've fallen in love with the breed!


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## El Bueno Habanero (Oct 20, 2009)

Ok ok, poodles my be smarter , but havs have look as well as brain :biggrin1:.


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Kim, Yes Shih Tzus could be called stubborn, it is part of their more independent nature, they like their people, but they can deal with lone time. As puppy's they play and play, around 2 to 3 they start their ruling ways. Old man is a good way to put it, my DH thought my last Tzu was very serious. He ruled the house, keep the other dogs in line in a gentle calm way.


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## holt24 (Jan 21, 2011)

I love learing about all the breeds Gaining a ton of knowledge.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Kathie said:


> ound: Actually, the smartest dogs I've had were poodles! My DD couldn't believe I got a Havanese instead of a poodle. She said "Mom, you are just "so" a poodle person.......lol I told her the Hav was for it's gentle nature with "her" children!!!
> 
> Of course, you all know I'm getting another Hav very shortly - we've fallen in love with the breed!


When I was first looking for a dog, I wouldn't have even CONSIDERED a poodle, because the ones I knew were awful, yappy, snappy little land sharks. I didn't realize that a lot of that was just lack of proper socialization and training. Now that I'm involved in competitive dog sports, and see how well poodles do, and how NICE they are when properly trained, I would definitely consider one (especially a standard) if I weren't so in love with Havs.

We have a lady in some of our classes with a gorgeous big standard puppy who seems to have been "born trained". His heel work is amazing, and she says she hardly works on it... he just likes to be there. In fact, her biggest "problem" in the beginning was fronts, because he didn't want to stay in that position... he wanted to get right back to her side.


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## trustmissy (Sep 10, 2006)

*Havanese vs. Lowchen*

I have a Lowchen and I HAD a Havanese, who has died. The Lowchen has longer legs and the coat on mine is MUCH easier to maintain than my Havanese was. I think my havanese was a quicker learner than my lowchen, but that may be because my hav was 8 weeks old when I got him and my lowchen was almost a year old. I think my lowchen is much more athletic than my hav and I think my havanese had a much more expressive and beautiful face, especially his big eyes. My havanese was aggressive and my lowchen is not. They are/were both total velcro dogs. I think they are both exceptional dogs.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

If I'm remembering correctly, the Lowchen was also one of the number of breeds that Dorothy Goodale started the registry for here in the U.S. I think everyone is afraid to compare chromosomes.

There is quite a bit of variation of intelligence in Havanese.


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## Ellie NY (Aug 27, 2010)

El Bueno Habanero said:


> Ok ok, poodles my be smarter , but havs have look as well as brain :biggrin1:.


DISCLAIMER: Following is a totally biased and subjective opinion not meant to hurt the feelings of poodle lovers.

You're so right! Poodles are smart but in my estimation not very attractive. Long thin bodies, long thin legs, long thin faces. Sure, the right haircut helps but it's like putting lipstick on a pig. Havs may not be the smartest, but they definitely outweigh most dogs in the looks and temperment department. Go TEAM HAV! ound:.:focus:


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

I have had several breeds of dogs and I will have to say that the reason Rosie is so spoiled and I tolerate some of her bad habits is because she is not as smart as other breeds. (or maybe they just have us fooled). Sometimes she acts like a little wild animal that has no use for humans like a cat. Then she gets real whimsical and gets us next to me but doesn't want to be held. she of course follows everywhere and waits at the door if I go outside or bathroom.


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## SOPHIES-MOM (Oct 4, 2010)

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If everyone thought the same breed was the prettiest or the cutest, everyone would own the same breed. And as far as smarts, dogs are like people-there is a huge variance in each breed. I will say I thought Sophie wasn't so smart until I started living with a puggle. But actually, they are both quite smart in different ways.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

wow, maybe we are blessed, but I think Tillie is INCREDIBLY intelligent and can probably understand and do WAY more than we even know!! Is there really that much of a difference in havs intelligence?

the fact that she is also gorgeous is a BONUS!


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## StarrLhasa (Jun 6, 2010)

*Lowchen/Havanese Comparison*

Flynn, are you there? Any comments?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TilliesMom said:


> wow, maybe we are blessed, but I think Tillie is INCREDIBLY intelligent and can probably understand and do WAY more than we even know!! Is there really that much of a difference in havs intelligence?
> 
> the fact that she is also gorgeous is a BONUS!


All I can say is that among the people I train with, few dogs, no matter what the breed, have progressed in their training as fast as Kodi has. There are two dogs who are exceptions to that... both are younger than Kodi and absolutely amazing. One is a Border Collie (but owned and handled by a professional trainer) and the other is a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever.

I'll tell you, if I weren't allergic to them, my next dog would be a Toller. They have all the smarts and athletic ability of a BC or Aussie with a lot less manic disposition. The only downside I see to them is the HORRID noise they make when they are upset.:biggrin1:


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

I have noticed there is a considerable range in body types of the Hav's. Even though Yogi is bigger but he is built solid, Misty is not only small but very fine boned, since I am always looking at Hav's I find other dogs often remind me of one or the other of my guys. I have seen some Hav's with very short legs, both mine have long legs.

I really think that most dogs are smart, but they are bred for different things most herding dogs are problem solvers our Havs were not bred as a herder but companion dogs as such they love to please their humans. Our dogs can solve the puzzle but they want us to show them and then tell them how much it pleases us. 

Karen, The people who go home and continue to train their dogs are the ones (such as you) that have dogs that progress quicker and you can see the bond those dogs have eyes for their master. Just like people there are some dogs that are just amazing performance animals.


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## Judy -- Toby & Jaime's mo (Apr 21, 2007)

*Had a Lowchen*

I had a Lowchen for about four years. We went to see the breeder that introduced me to the Havanese about a Havanese puppy companion for Jaime (our first Havanese, who is now 16.25 years) after our English Cocker Spaniel died. She also had some Lowchen and a four year old named Nicky (that she originally bred) had just shown up on her door with her owner a few weeks before. The woman said if Sandy did not take him, he would have to go the pount. Sandy took him. Nicky attached himself to us like glue during the visit. We felt he would have a much harder time finding a home than the puppies. Sandy brought him to our house for a visit etc and all went well. VERY long story short, Nicky had a history (which we later found out) due to the fact that the woman owner had been abused by her former husband and Nicky had definately developed erratic protective issues toward females that he became attached to. We went to behaviorists, dog physics, dog psychiatrists etc. He was GREAT when he was alone with my husband, but when I was around he would occasionaly go after my husband out of the blue (like he would stand up and Nicky would lunge). We spent a fortune on trying to help him and then he got sick with kidney failure and then we spent a fortune trying to get him better, but alas it did not work.

Aside from his sad story, he was an adorable, cute, smart dog. They are much more terrier like -- bouncy like. Nicky not so much, but I did get my niece (Full disclosure: totally with her parents pre-approval)a Lowchen puppy (he is now ten and just recently become a lot more mellow.) Ardy is very cute and a sweet dog.

Both Nicky and Ardy both loved their people a lot, but they are definately different from the Havanese. I may get shot here, but I almost think they are cuter than the Havanese with their square bodies. I would say I like the Havanese personality (for our family) a little more. Lowchen are great dogs, particularly for a family who wants a more athletic type dog but still wants a small shedless dog. Their coat is coarser than a Havanese.

Here is literally a side by side comparison. This are 15 year old pictures I scanned. Jaime was a year or so (10#) and Nicky was probably five (about 15#).


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

Wow, I am late to the party. Interesting thread. I like both the Havs and Lowchen. I do not own a Hav, so I don't feel as qualified to comment. I only know some and think they are very intelligent as are the Lowchen. I think intelligence, personality traits are so intermingled with early socialization that they are difficult to generalize. Lowchen are said to have originated in Germany and also said to have originated in France. 
My observation is that the Havs are a little more velcro than the Lowchen, and they have become more popular (mainly due to the lion clip that many people detest)..any breed that becomes popular is bred more, as the demand is higher. Both breeds command a high price, but Havs are much easier to purchase due to availability. 
Both compete well in agility. Both have health problems, the books will list more on the Hav side, since they are more prolific. Even my vet had not seen a Lowchen before mine about 5 years ago. I think the Lowchen is a bit higher energy in general. 
I will have to say I do equate the intelligence of the Lowchen with that of the WELL BRED poodles. Again popularity is a double edge sword and most of the poodles you see now are NOTHING like the poodle was before the popularity sent it into the puppy mills and every backyard breeder who wanted to make a little money. 
The coats are entirely different, and the easier coat to care for in my opinion is that of the Shih Tzu and the Silks. 
I think intelligence again varies in each breed. 
All in all, I think the Havs and the Lowchen were bred to be companion dogs and neither of them should be owned by anyone not able to spend a lot of time with them, for the best outcome! My new little Lowchen has changed my stubborn little Shih Tzu into a much easier to feed, walk, handle dog. They play together and seem very happy. My Shih Tzu used to take one morsel of his food to his bed and eat it, was very upset if the cat walked within 3 feet of the food and now...well, he shares with the Lowchen..so nothing is written in stone. Enjoy whatever breed you have! Lowchen and Havs are great!!!


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## El Bueno Habanero (Oct 20, 2009)

TilliesMom said:


> wow, maybe we are blessed, but I think Tillie is INCREDIBLY intelligent and can probably understand and do WAY more than we even know!! Is there really that much of a difference in havs intelligence?


My Fedja too is very, very intelligent, and as I don't have any experience with other hav's (I know many, but can't comment on their intelligence...IMO you have to live with a dog to discover what he is really like), I always thought that hav's are in general an intelligent breed. Fedja learns new things in a minutes, and often knows what I want without me saying a word. I always say he can almost speak lol. 
But I do believe it's an individual thing, same as with the people. 
That being said there's one thing that I've noticed over and over again and you can call me nuts...but it seems to me that calmer dogs tend to be smarter too. More time to contemplate, instead of being crazy  ? Don't know if this is true, (probably not, and I don't like to generalize anyway), it's just my personal observation. True or not, my next puppy will again be a mellow one, just like Fedja was and still is, except when on a walk. He then goes totally happy/crazy :whoo:.


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## Atticus (May 17, 2011)

My little Hav is pretty darned smart, and my previous dog was a border collie so I know smart when I see it! GRIN!


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## Tessa's Mommy (May 20, 2011)

Both Tessa and Cooper are what I would consider calmer and quieter dogs and I think they are extremely smart. They learn what they want and ignore what doesn't interest them. For example, Tessa learned in one day exactly where the treats are and that when I come home from work she gets one. Unfortunately, she still hasn't learned that she has go potty outside everytime she has to piddle. 

Does anyone have any experience with the Cotons? We have a year and half old male next door. He is a beautiful dog but still absolutely wild, almost uncontrollable. Also, the woman I have training Tessa mentioned that in her experience the males can turn vicious as they get older. Just wondering?


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