# Backyard Breeder?



## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Please note, I am not looking to breed or buy another Havanese. All my pups are fixed I'm just asking your thoughts.

If a person decides to breed without showing, in your opinion, is this a backyard breeder?

Keep in mind, this person is willing to do the following:

Have other breeders and mentors evaluate the dog
Do all the required health testing, hips, knees, hearing, eyes etc. on the dog
Both parents of this dog have been health tested
Socialize the pups in the home, with people and other dogs
Start the housebreaking process

In a perfect world, I would like to see all breeders show their dogs to Championship, do all health testing, socialize, and housebreak. I know some well known breeders who show & health test, but don't socialize or housebreak. Are they bad breeders? Or are they good breeders, just because they show and health test? The number 1 reason dogs get surrendered to a shelter, are not because they didn't meet the standard, it's because they weren't properly housebroken or socialized. So would you go as far to say this person is unethical and a backyard breeder?
I've been in the show ring and have seen what goes on with politics. I often see dogs win that shouldn't. I'm not saying I agree with this person, but I would not go as far as saying they were a backyard breeder. Although this is not an ideal breeder for some of us, I would probably purchase a puppy from this person. 
Thoughts?


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

Cali's breeder fit the examples that you gave.
Cali, as a puppy was wonderfully socialized and raised in a fabulous, enriched environment.One of her parents was a champion and both were health tested etc. I don't necessarily think a person has to show dogs to breed well.
I wouldn't characterize her as a back yard breeder, maybe a hobby breeder.


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## TilliesMom (Sep 30, 2010)

good question...very well worded! i'll be interested to read what others have to say on this topic!


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## shimpli (Mar 24, 2010)

I would buy from this person too. All the things that he(she) is willing to do even without showing the dog to a championship, gives me the confidence to get a puppy from him. Is this a backyard breeder? I don't think so.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

I wouldn't classify this type of breeder as a BYB. I don't think all reputable breeders show their dogs, but I could be wrong.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Zoeys breeder fits the example you just gave she does all the health testing and even gets up in the middle of the night to take them out. I could tell a big difference in the way she was socialized well at least she does not bark at the vacuum Her husband and her are retired and there dogs are there lives.


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## HavaneseHannah (Mar 30, 2011)

I think I don't agree that they are backyard breeders. I don't know what to call them but they are not also good breeders in my opinion. They are stuck in the middle.


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## heatherk (Feb 24, 2011)

I bought my baby Ceylon from what I now consider a _great _'hobby breeder' - she raises their two dogs, and the puppies, in the house with them, their 4 kids, and their cats; did basic testing on the parents (whom they show); and Ceylon came to me fully socialized, vet checked, dew claws removed, and dewormed. After further consideration (I have no desire to get embroiled in a debate about any of this!  ), I am editing my post to only say that I trust Cey's breeder totally, and would do it all over again if I had the chance.


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## hmrgang (Sep 7, 2007)

*labels*

Wow, Linda - what a brave lady to open up such a can of worms! Thank you, I hope that your posting will help open up lines of communication and understanding so that people don't viciously attack others in the guise of "bettering the breed".

For my 2 cents, for what it is worth - I despise labels for breeders. I believe each and every breeder should be judged individually based on a multitude of factors, the most important, in my opinion, is the love of the breed. If the breeder has that, then the other things will follow.

That being said, I guess those who love to label people would call me a "hobby breeder". I suppose if I had to have a label pasted on my forehead, I would prefer that one - for breeding for the joy of it (which is what a hobby usually is) in my opinion is preferable to me than breeding for the $. Now, all you show people, don't jump on me, thinking I mean that you don't love the breed, because that is not what I meant - if you think that, you are missing the point.

Also, please don't misunderstand me - all of you out there who have firm beliefs as to who should and who 
shouldn't be breeding - you are certainly entitled to your opinion and I don't wish you any ill will. I just wish everyone would try not to throw barbs at others who don't agree with them and instead, open the lines of communication and education. Now THERE'S where we can better the breed we all so love!

Phyllis


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## Rudyshar8 (Feb 6, 2011)

My definition of a backroom breeder is: she breeds more than one type of dog, you go to look at the pups, and she doesn't show you the mom or the condition they are living in with the mom..that is how I found my Maxwell...he was so bad, and yes, he is a havanese, but she was out for the money...I don't feel that a respective person who wants to breed a havanese and only a havanese, and makes sure she is in good shape and wants the female to be in the best shape for breeding...is no way a byb. If this person is getting mentored and taking care of the female pup, and has other havanese only...I would definitely call her a breeder for the breed not a byb...there's a big difference between them..and she is doing this for the love of the breed, not the money...she's probably put in a good chunk of money to the pup, to raise it to be healthy and bring in healthy pups...Sounds like she is doing the right thing to breed her.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

Labels are just that labels. You can't judge so much by what the breeder says, as by what people who have purchased their puppies say. Don't forget there are many reasons for breeding and there are many reasons for showing. Pros and Cons...Being a byb, a hobby breeder, or a "breeder" or one who has a kennel does not make a person loving, caring, willing to socialize the puppies, willing to answer millions of questions coming from prospective buyers and willing to do what is the best for the puppy or dog, because it is all subjective. 
I can say that buying from a breeder who will allow you to see where the dogs live, one knows the best time to socialize is from the very beginning. In fact from what I have been reading the past few days, the optimum time for socialization is GONE after the thirteenth (13th) week. 
The main reason dogs of all ages get sent to the human society, shelters, etc., is due to improper socialization, usually NOT HOUSEBROKEN, but sometimes just things that could have easily been prevented by crate training, early play and interaction with people. I personally do not like to wait to get a puppy until they are 12 weeks old, unless I know the breeder has taken great pains to socialize the puppies. We have some great breeders, small and large, who do this. Many don't. Ch. in front of a dog's name for sure means there has been money spent to campaign the dog, what you want to know is why? If it is to sell puppies or collect stud fees, then you might want to think again. Politics raises its ugly head everywhere in and out of the showring. There are no guarantees, but YES, I would buy from a breeder I trust, remember the old saying...Trust, but Verify!!!!


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## SOPHIES-MOM (Oct 4, 2010)

I have wondered about this too.After joining the forum I assumed Sophie came from a backyard or hobby breeder because the parents were only shown occasionally in local shows. I looked for 6 months for the right breeder for me and I couldn't be happier with little Sophie. Some of the breeders with show champions bred lots of dogs as one time.Some also kept the dogs in kennels instead of inside the house. Sophie's breeder only has one or two litters a year. She has 5 havaneses, a yorkie poo and 2 cats.They all live in the house, and I met them all-all were very sweet. Sophie is also shy, which is supposed to be a big negative, but we love her that way. She's suspicious of anything new, until she has checked it out. This is not from lack of socialization, just her personality.She adapts beautifully to everything. My husband and I went to a dinner party last week and every one took their dog. Sophie never had so much fun, playing with the other dogs. My point is that just because someone has champions and calls theirself a breeder that only wants to better the breed may not produce the most socialized puppies, although I'm sure many do. I would buy from my breeder again.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I am going to jump in here from not so great experience with my two boys... Jasper came from probably not a real puppy mill...probably not a back yard or hobby breeder...but definitely in it for the money not for the dogs. Cash came from what I would refer as a backyard or hobby breeder. she loved her dogs, had some lineage and championships in her line and took the care to breed with good if not top championship dogs. But what she didn't do was all the geneology and back testing that the truly reputable breeders do. Breeding is truly a science and about genetics. At 4 and 5 I have uncovered some health problems with my boys and because neither of my breeders are approachable in one case or not still in business in the other. I have no idea if these issues are hereditary...and I know that my reporting will do nothing to change their breeding program so Jasper and Cash's part sibs, generations to come could also develop thyroid issues or pancreatitis, CD issues.

I do not want to condemn those of you that have written here and who are hobby breeders. I believe you love your dogs. And I have not researched your programs at all so I am making no judgments... I just want to say, for me, B over the years on these forums -- I have learned and witnessed in person the difference between really soundly bred Havs and cute puppies. And my two boys cost me the same as a dog from a truly reputable breeder, but possibly more in the long run because of health issues.

Don't get me wrong I would not trade my boys for the world. And these things happen in the best of lines. But if I get a third, I would choose a breeder where I can verify that each litter gets better and better, healthier and healthier.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Thanks for your replies. This thread was started in defense of my dear friend. Hope she doesn't mind me saying this. I was angered that someone would have the nerve to email her to viciously attack her, calling her a backyard breeder, accusing her of doing it for the money and questioning her character. My friend is very well respected here and has been such a big help to the havanese breed. She is one of the kindest people I know and love this breed dearly. How dare someone be so arrogant to read her the riot act! Get off your high horse!! I am sorry, but I am so angered by this. Don't you realize people have feelings and there are other ways to get your point across without being cruel?
In no way am I saying I agree with this. I was going to stud Scudder, but my plan was to Champion him and do all the health testing. I really enjoyed the ring, but things didn't work out and he was neutered. Have I shared my opinions with my friend? Yes, I did. Does she need to be attached and talked about behind her back, NO. If you have something to say, have the guts to say it here. I will debate you until I am blue in the face.
I agree the best breeders, in my opinion, are the ones that OWNER handle, champion their breeding stock, health test, socialize, potty train, dogs and pups raise in their house, and are there for the puppy owners for life. This can't always be the case. My friend was told to do what right to better the breed? So are you telling me the breeders that are the top breeders with #1 dogs in the country, pumping out tons of puppies a year are better? What about do what's right for the dog? I have a real problem when I see a SPECIAL dog in the ring. Their coats are so perfect, that you know this dog does not have a life. He/She is shipped from show to show and can't be a dog. This is more acceptable to you?

I won't even get into the show ring and how political that arena is. Are you kidding me? Can the havanese standard be any more confusing? Do the judges really know what they are looking for? I see a hav that looks like a Yorkie with a snippy little face and tiny body, and the next week a sturdy Hav with a full muzzle! 
Ok, I am done. I know I don't post much, but look out when I do!


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## juliav (Nov 21, 2006)

I think that there is more to breeder classification than that. It's not just ethical breeder that health test and shows his/her dogs (I call them hobby breeder, cause you need a whole lot of money for this hobby!!!) and backyard breeder and puppy mills. It's not just black and white, but a lot of shades of grey that most breeders fall into. Each person eventually have to decide for him/herself what's important. 

If I had to purchase a puppy now, knowing what I know, I would probably not buy from this breeder. I guess at this point I would want a puppy from health tested champion parents. There are many breeders that show, health test, socialize and potty train their puppies. That's where I want my future puppy to come from.


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## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

Here are my two cents. In an ideal world, every breeder would breed only championship dogs, show all their breeding dogs themselves, treat them like pets, housetrain all puppies and dogs, and only chose to breed the perfect havanese dogs with perfect lineage. I personally have more of an issue with a breeder who keeps their dogs in kennels and runs and doesn't allow them to be pets than I do with someone who does not show. With that being said, I think if you are breeding multiple dogs and you are making money on it, that you should be showing your dogs. I really can't understand why you wouldn't in that case. There are plenty of local shows to show your dogs that you don't need to travel and you can make sure your dog is a good example of the breed. But, there are those who are just starting out, or who have only one female who they breed and want to spoil the dog and the puppies rotten. I am okay with that. In an ideal world, they would show the dog to championship, but that can't always happen. I would hope they would at least expose the dog to other breeders and judges to be sure that the dog they are going to breed is a good representation of the breed. I would also hope that they would make sure the dog comes from a good lineage and a health tested lineage and would do all the appropriate health testing themselves. Brady came from a wonderful breeder who has always been there for me and I know she always will. She still checks in on him  She loves her dogs as pets first. She breeds and shows and all of her dogs live in the house with her. She does breed some dogs who are not champions, but she does this because her dogs are dogs first. She has had dogs who were champion quality dogs, but for one reason or another the show world was not right for them. For example, she had a wonderful little girl who just froze in the ring. She was adorable, a perfect havanese, and a great personality, but she hated the ring. It happens. I trust that my breeder knows her dogs well enough to know that this one is worth breeding even though she does not have a championship. 

As you can see, I am a bit torn on all of this. What I do know is that I am not here to judge. I can encourage someone to do all the things that I would want to see from a "perfect breeder", but I can't force it. I also won't judge others who do not do everything. I appreciate the entire philosophy that "true breeders" do this to better the breed. But, you can't convince me that they make no money and do it just to make a better havanese. 

Here are the things I find most important in a breeder. I want someone who treats my dog's parents the way I will treat my dog! I don't want them in a kennel or not allowed to play. They should be dogs! I want the dogs health tested and to know that if there is EVER any problem, they will take the dog back. It is in my contract that Brady is never to go anywhere but back to his breeder! Cassie and Dugan are from HRI, so it is in their contract that they go back to HRI. I want someone is reachable and approachable and cares about their dogs and puppies. I want to know that my dog was raised with loving hands! I want to know that the puppies weren't left for hours on end and that someone cleaned up after them and checked on them constantly. I want to know that my breeder will stop breeding any dog who creates a puppy with health problems and that they will stand by and help that puppy. I also want to know that my breeder cares about who gets their puppies. They learn about their puppy buyers and make sure it is a good home where they send them. My breeder is a little over the top with this and won't sell a dog to someone who works out of the home more than a few hours a day. I can respect that though. I also would not buy a dog from someone who ships their dog all over to stud them out. I am not okay with that. Bacca's breeder personally flies her dogs under the seat anywhere they go. I respect that!


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

All I will say is - the contract reads:.....DUGAN COMES BACK TO ME!!!


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## hmrgang (Sep 7, 2007)

Wow - some great responses from very thoughtful, non-judgmental people. We all won't agree on everything, and that's fine - even preferable, so we don't become complacent as a group and try to learn from each other. I am impressed with the opinions expressed here and hope I can grow from them.

It is interesting that dog showing is considered a "sport". Just as in other sports, emotions can run very high due to the nature of competition. Participation in sports should always be voluntary and non-participants should never be looked upon with disdain. JIMHO.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

I agree with the fact that labels don't really tell you anything. That being said, I guess, for me, someone who breeds without showing thier dogs runs the risk of breeding Havs that do not conform to the standard., Is that necessarily a bad thing? Maybe not, but the risk is great of Havanese begining to branch out into any number of looks even as the parent club is striving to refine the standard. 
I am not a show person and there are a TON of politics involved, which I abhore. Just watch any show with a professional handler and a breeder handler in the same ring and the pro wins 99% of the time. Is that because he or she ALWAYS has the best example of the breed at the end of thier lead? No way. So, when all is said and done, what does it really mean when a dog wins it championship? The problem is, it's the only system there is for judging to a standard, even if it is flawed.
There are also those who breed their dogs after showing them in agility or obedience or rally. Those folks put a lot of time, effort and training into their dogs and will likely do all the necessary testing and socialization so would they be on par with a conformation breeder? 
I woudn't say someone who doesn't show is bad breeder if they study and understand the Havanese standard and breed to it, and breed to improve the breed instead of just for the love of puppies. Heck, if that's all it took, I'd be breeding. I could mate two beautiful Havs, completely health test them, and socialize them with everybody but if I did that without studying the standard, it would be wrong. Luckily, I'm too lazy and find anatomy too confusing to ever want to spend time studiying it. Heck, even understanding the standard is confusing to me and it's only a couple of pages long... I'll leave the breeding to others.


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## hmrgang (Sep 7, 2007)

Exactly. All those wonderful dogs who compete in agility, obedience, rally and even playdates are happy, well-adjusted and much loved Havanese. A very respectful dog trainer reminds us that the most important quality in a dog is its temperament!

Most breeders know that you can take two 100% perfect conformation dogs and breed them together, have 10 litters, and out of that pairing, MAYBE get one champion-quality puppy. Also, CD research shows that you can breed two CERF-perfect dogs and get CD puppies. It is up to each breeder to recognize the advantages and limitations of health-testing and do their best.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I have a problem with people who are too quick to judge anything, without necessarily knowing the whole story. I don't know the situation to which Linda refers, but I think there are many variables in breeding programs. Personally, without assigning labels to anyone, I would happily get a puppy from a breeder who treated all his/her animals as family, who cared enough to insist they come back if there's a problem, who worry about the home into which the animal goes, insuring to the best of their ability a happy and loving home. I think the testing is important, to breed away from conditions that could cause heartbreak for everyone involved (mostly the animal) as time goes by.

I have less of an issue with shipping the dogs since all of mine arrived to me that way, no worse for the experience. My major concern would be for the welfare of the dogs, now and in the future.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

it's too long to quote...but I agree with so much of what Karen/Brady's mom says.

It is so true that all breeders have to start somewhere. And I would much prefer a pup who came from a bitch who was treated like a part of the family (the puppies too) than out with a stranger on the show circuit. I am just a little freaked out about health 
right now. 

Linda, I hope your friend feels our support. It really is all about health and heart in the long run for pet puppies. 

Laurie, can I have dugan when she sends him back to you?


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

I was once told "Breeding is an art, showing is a game". I agree. If a "hobby breeder" is being well mentored, health testing, etc, doing all the things you know this person to be doing then I wish him/her nothing but the best.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

mellowbo said:


> I was once told "Breeding is an art, showing is a game". I agree. If a "hobby breeder" is being well mentored, health testing, etc, doing all the things you know this person to be doing then I wish him/her nothing but the best. And if I KNEW this person as a long time respected forum member and protector of all animals I would think even questioning the motives would be insane.


yes.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

hmrgang said:


> Exactly. All those wonderful dogs who compete in agility, obedience, rally and even playdates are happy, well-adjusted and much loved Havanese. A very respectful dog trainer reminds us that the most important quality in a dog is its temperament!
> 
> Most breeders know that you can take two 100% perfect conformation dogs and breed them together, have 10 litters, and out of that pairing, MAYBE get one champion-quality puppy. Also, CD research shows that you can breed two CERF-perfect dogs and get CD puppies. It is up to each breeder to recognize the advantages and limitations of health-testing and do their best.


Isn't CERF eye testing? What does that have to do with CD?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Missy said:


> it's too long to quote...but I agree with so much of what Karen/Brady's mom says.
> 
> It is so true that all breeders have to start somewhere. And I would much prefer a pup who came from a bitch who was treated like a part of the family (the puppies too) than out with a stranger on the show circuit. I am just a little freaked out about health
> right now.


I agree with (the other) Karen too. I couldn't have said it better.

Linda, I feel really bad that your friend was attacked. OTOH, having been, myself, the recipient of an attack on another forum, I can't say that having it happen in public is any better. I can always click the "delete" button on an e-mail I don't like, and put that person's name on "banned" status in my e-mail account.<g>


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Bradys mom said it best! I agree with what she said. The main reason for this thread was I don't think my friend, with all she is doing, should be treated so badly. She has gain respect from many people here and for one person to bash her and tell her she is a backyard breeder is uncalled for. Plus, she might not even breed her puppy. This is by far, a much friendlier forum to be part of.....


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## danak (Jun 17, 2007)

Totally agree Mellobo!.


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## hmrgang (Sep 7, 2007)

krandall said:


> Isn't CERF eye testing? What does that have to do with CD?


CD, or chondrodysplasia, is part of what is called Ockham Syndrome and has been researched by TAMU, partially funded by HCA, for many years. It is a recessive genetic disorder thought to be caused by a combination of up to 31different genes. Bowed legs, juvenile cataracts, liver shunts, and other disorders are thought to be part of the syndrome. It is all related. Because of the multitude of genes involved, it is currently impossible to conduct any breeding program where the breeder is positive there is no[possiblility Ockham in the genes,(even if all their dogs are fully health-tested) as there is no health test that can rule out Ockham syndrome. One of my Havanese, thankfully non-affected, participated in this study by providing soaped pictures of her legs and bloodwork.

The current findings reinforce my position on knowing the benefits and limitations of health testing. It is currently very frustrating to know that until these genes are all identified (if ever), breeding is very much a "crap shoot" no matter how good the breeder is and regardless if the dog is a champion or not. :frusty: For as we all know, the health of our precious Havs is paramount to us all.

Please excuse the "lecture" nature of this explanation - my goal is to help us all (including me!) share and understand information that can help everyone and their Havanese.
Phyllis


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Champion dogs are not necessarily healthy dogs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedigree_Dogs_Exposed


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## Narwyn (Jan 24, 2010)

Responsible breeding carries three heavy responsibilities... Temperament - Health - Appearance. If you are not paying attention to all three of these and actively trying to improve or maintain them, you are not the highest tier breeder. 

Temperament - We all love that cheerful, velcroy, mischievous, "non-quarrelsome" little dog. Although there are always individual personalities, it's this personality that is one way a Hav is a Hav. This is only partly how a dog how acts in your home, but also in different and new environments. Nurture absolutely plays a role here, too, but genes play a role and if they don't have that essentially Hav temperament, neither will their puppies. 

Health - Without a doubt, we all want healthy dogs. As has been noted, you will ultimately spend more on a $600 puppy from a puppy mill than a $2000 puppy from a good breeder. I will say I highly recommend people do some independent research on that TAMU project and draw their own conclusions on the sample of dogs used and of the validity of the results. However, it is true that recessive genes exist, a good breeder just stacks the deck in the favor of healthy puppies by using healthy parents from healthy parents from healthy parents. 

Appearance - I've been showing dogs of various breeds for more than 10 years. Sometimes it's a game. Some people are better at being objective about their darlings than others, so seeking not only the opinion of a judge, but also from the other Hav people at the show (and this discussions back at the grooming set up are often more informative). I've seen lots of people have incorrect dogs - they can't win - blame politics... politics happen but I have have always seen that cream will always rise. 
Appearance is so, so, important to a breed. If you make the coat a little thinner, the muzzle a little shorter, the eyes a little rounder... you get a Maltese. Make the coat a little thicker and coarser, let that bite go undershot, flatten out that topline... you get a Lhasa. We call it "Type" - it's what makes you see that fuzzy dog across the street make you think it's a Hav. Without showing - not just the Championship, but the Peer-Review from other breeders and taking a good long look at what they're doing, too - it's all too easy to drift to generic. 

Just like breeders rely on tests like CERF or OFA (tests that are not perfect) I believe they also need to rely on albeit imperfect outside sources on the looks and temperament of their dogs.

I don't like labels on breeders, either, because they mean different things to different people. But to me, the breeders doing the most good for this breed are the ones for whom all three of these are non-negotiable.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

hmrgang said:


> CD, or chondrodysplasia, is part of what is called Ockham Syndrome and has been researched by TAMU, partially funded by HCA, for many years. It is a recessive genetic disorder thought to be caused by a combination of up to 31different genes. Bowed legs, juvenile cataracts, liver shunts, and other disorders are thought to be part of the syndrome. It is all related. Because of the multitude of genes involved, it is currently impossible to conduct any breeding program where the breeder is positive there is no[possiblility Ockham in the genes,(even if all their dogs are fully health-tested) as there is no health test that can rule out Ockham syndrome. One of my Havanese, thankfully non-affected, participated in this study by providing soaped pictures of her legs and bloodwork.
> 
> The current findings reinforce my position on knowing the benefits and limitations of health testing. It is currently very frustrating to know that until these genes are all identified (if ever), breeding is very much a "crap shoot" no matter how good the breeder is and regardless if the dog is a champion or not. :frusty: For as we all know, the health of our precious Havs is paramount to us all.
> 
> ...


Actually, I know that. But *CERF*, as far as I know, is eye testing only. It is only a small part of the testing that I would expect a breeder to do. (and yes, I understand there are still no guarantees)


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Nothing is ever black or white, so many shades of gray in between and I hate to see any one group stereotyped to the worst possible 'example' within a group.

Kara


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## hmrgang (Sep 7, 2007)

Narwyn said:


> Responsible breeding carries three heavy responsibilities... Temperament - Health - Appearance. If you are not paying attention to all three of these and actively trying to improve or maintain them, you are not the highest tier breeder.
> 
> Temperament - We all love that cheerful, velcroy, mischievous, "non-quarrelsome" little dog. Although there are always individual personalities, it's this personality that is one way a Hav is a Hav. This is only partly how a dog how acts in your home, but also in different and new environments. Nurture absolutely plays a role here, too, but genes play a role and if they don't have that essentially Hav temperament, neither will their puppies.
> 
> ...


Excellent points.


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## Cailleach (Jan 30, 2010)

Narwyn said:


> Responsible breeding carries three heavy responsibilities... Temperament - Health - Appearance. If you are not paying attention to all three of these and actively trying to improve or maintain them, you are not the highest tier breeder.
> 
> Temperament - We all love that cheerful, velcroy, mischievous, "non-quarrelsome" little dog. Although there are always individual personalities, it's this personality that is one way a Hav is a Hav. This is only partly how a dog how acts in your home, but also in different and new environments. Nurture absolutely plays a role here, too, but genes play a role and if they don't have that essentially Hav temperament, neither will their puppies.
> 
> ...


I absolutely agree with every word you posted.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Narwyn said:


> Responsible breeding carries three heavy responsibilities... Temperament - Health - Appearance. If you are not paying attention to all three of these and actively trying to improve or maintain them, you are not the highest tier breeder.
> 
> Temperament - We all love that cheerful, velcroy, mischievous, "non-quarrelsome" little dog. Although there are always individual personalities, it's this personality that is one way a Hav is a Hav. This is only partly how a dog how acts in your home, but also in different and new environments. Nurture absolutely plays a role here, too, but genes play a role and if they don't have that essentially Hav temperament, neither will their puppies.
> 
> ...


 I'm curious about temperament. I took Zoey ( Who I would love to breed someday) To a club meeting where there was about 15 Havanese most were show dogs and about 6 champions last week. She stayed by my side the whole time. She would not play with any other dog's and she even barked.I have tried to socialize her. She is only 5mo old and a bit shy would this be a problem for considering breeding her? How do you know do you wait tell they are of the right age to have puppies and decide then if they have out grown certain fears.:focus: I am interested in learning all I can. I am enjoying reading this trend


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Wow!!! Have I been a sleep!!! Just reading this has made me think the forum is now saying it's ok to just breed Havanese because you like the breed, you're a nice person, and you socialize your pups and keep them in your home. What happend to responsible breeding???? That is, breeding to the standard, health testing, and, yes, showing so that there is independent, objective verification of the quality of the dogs. I thought we are supposed to be promoting responsible breeding/?????

I personally have no problem with handlers, yes they are good, that is their job and how they get paid. Why would anyone expect less? Many Breeders handle their own dogs and win!!! Anyone showing is supposed to bring out the best in the dog in any way they can.

I feel it is not right to breed pet quality puppies to meet the demand for a popular pet. Good breederss produce plenty of pet quality puppies. Also performance dog breeders often have taken one of their dogs to a conformation championship.

I am really uncomfortable with breed solely to produce pet quality purebred pups . Look at our shelters and look at how many dogs get euthanized each day. Yes many are purebreds and some are Havanese. We love our pups wherever they came from. Breeding pet quality pups is just not right.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

In no way am I saying it is ok to breed your dog just because you love them....GEEZ... This thread has gotten way off track. In MY opinion, if you want to breed seriously, you need start off on the RIGHT foot. Please people spay and neuter your pets!
I agree with ALL point above. I just didn't think my friend should be labeled back yard breeder and the person addressing her could have been more tactful.


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## Brady's mom (Dec 1, 2006)

I am right with Linda on this one. But, I think labeling anyone who breeds a dog that does not have a championship a back yard breeder is going a bit too far. You need to know all the facts to make a decision. I have explained all the things I love about my breeder. I do feel very strongly though that not all "breeders" are what they say they are. There are breeders out there who never meet their buyers, who only ship puppies, and whose dogs are raised outside. I don't think it is fair to classify these people as good breeders just because they can say they have championships. I have seen the life of a traveling show dog and I find it rather sad. Just my opinion. And like in anything else, I respect that others have the right to have an opinion and say it in a tactful way.


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## hmrgang (Sep 7, 2007)

Brady's mom said:


> I respect that others have the right to have an opinion and say it in a tactful way.


Absolutely. I think the whole point of this thread is that no matter whether you think only champion dogs should be bred or whether you think otherwise, we all need to respect each other and not call names, label people or condescend. Each and every one of us has the right to do what they want and we as a breed should be respectful even if we aren't supportive. We have a wonderful group of great people here who seem to understand that, for which I am grateful.

The beauty is that this is still a free world and everyone is free to choose the a puppy from a breeder whom they feel adheres to the high standards they require.

Phyllis


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## jacqui (Aug 7, 2007)

The Laughing Magpie said:


> I am really uncomfortable with breeding solely to produce pet quality purebred pups . Look at our shelters and look at how many dogs get euthanized each day. Yes many are purebreds and some are Havanese. We love our pups wherever they came from. Breeding pet quality pups is just not right.


So true!
There are actually a lot of good comments here that I see no point in duplicating except that it is so important to meet your breeder, ideally face to face. If that is not possible then certainly several conversations loaded with questions are crucial. The only thing I will go out on a limb on is shipping puppies as cargo. Still am not convinced this is necessary or prudent. Breeding for ten years I have never had to ship a puppy as cargo and won't. I know many good breeders do. I also know the one rare 'accident' won't ever happen on my watch.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

No, I don't think the forum is saying its okay to breed if you dont' show, Its like the threads that say that even if you get a dog from a 'top' breeder/showperson, it doesn't really guarantee a perfectly healthy dog and if a breeder did everything right and all of the health testing, is it necessary to show the dog?

Its just a question thrown out there for opinion, atleast that is what I thought..to me that doesn't seem backyardish, when I think backyard, I think of the people who say 'if we are going to pay $____ for a dog, we better breed the the thing to get our money back" (insert Virginia southern drawl, ) (i've heard that, even recently from people I don't even know very well) and they proceed w/o any care in the world as to the health of the puppies (or their own dog, for that matter)

I think the forum has become less judgemental towards people who got their dogs before really knowing the rules of responsible breeding, and I think that is a good thing, for awhile there, newbies were being attacked for just not knowing all about cerf'ing and health testing and all that, and I never thought that was right. I'm not saying supporting BYB's is okay, but I hate to see people feel bad about something they can't undo because they didn't know any different.

Kara


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I agree Kara. I feel this forum has gotten more accepting of people not knowing. We can't forget, just because we are knowledgeable, doesn't mean everyone who logs on is. All Hav's are welcome. It doesn't matter how or where you got them. This site is for learning and getting the word out. I don't want to judge. Let's leave that up to the other forums! HAHA. Some of you know what I'm talking about!


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

Just to be clear, I have always even in the past, pointed out where a dog comes from does not matter we love them regardless and I have always extended a warm welcome to all the new people on the forum. Some folks just don't know any better, this is why the forum is important. I don't feel in this setting it is nice to attack someone on a personal level, most people don't even know they're a BB. Some of the senior members on the forum have gotten their first dog in the wrong way and have had much heartbreak and expense. Although I will never say harsh words to someone who's dog came from not the best source, I will not extend that feeling to a BB (I will not attack them personally), I will speak up and say breeding purebred dogs in order to answer the demand for pets in not ok. I personally feel the scope of this forum cannot address every breeder, again my problem is once you put it out there suddenly the tone becomes I'm not planing on showing or breeding so this is the right way to get the puppy of my dreams.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

This will always be an emotional topic. I do have a question though. If you were in the market for a puppy and you knew a show breeder who did all the necessary testing, did the socialization and even the begining potty training, and you knew someone who did not show their dogs but did do the health testing and the socialization and begining potty training, which would you buy from and why? Me, I'd choose the show breeder. Granted not all show breeders are good ones but the ones I know really are familar with the lines they have and with every litter they are looking for the pup that most closely resembles the standard to be their next champion, and the sire or dam to future litters thus ensuring that a Havanese will stay a Havanese. Those that I know, both Havanese and at least one other breed, love their dogs very much. It's truly a labor of love.
If you would choose the other breeder, why? Just curious?


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

mckennasedona said:


> This will always be an emotional topic. I do have a question though. If you were in the market for a puppy and you knew a show breeder who did all the necessary testing, did the socialization and even the begining potty training, and you knew someone who did not show their dogs but did do the health testing and the socialization and begining potty training, which would you buy from and why? Me, I'd choose the show breeder. Granted not all show breeders are good ones but the ones I know really are familar with the lines they have and with every litter they are looking for the pup that most closely resembles the standard to be their next champion, and the sire or dam to future litters thus ensuring that a Havanese will stay a Havanese. Those that I know, both Havanese and at least one other breed, love their dogs very much. It's truly a labor of love.
> If you would choose the other breeder, why? Just curious?


 I would have to go see all dogs involved before I made my decision. If the none show breeder had Parents that were more desirable for my wants I would go with that breeder. But only after studying their pedigree


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Susan, I think you know how I feel about your excellent question. Before I joined this forum I had already gotten 2 havanese and did not have the wisdom this forum provides. The next 2 were a different story!!! Given a choice, which not everyone is given or even knows what questions to ask, well of course I would go with a top notch breeder who shows. BUT, not every champion is a top notch dog and not every non champ is necessarily only pet quality.
I have to say though, if I personally knew someone who wanted to breed and I personally know they have all the wisdom, research, mentoring and everything it takes to try breeding and they were not into showing for whatever reason, they would have my best wishes.
In my opinion, these web sites should be for fun and information, not to judge. It is so much kinder to help and educate that blame. 
Maybe it was a couple of years ago we had an excellent thread on what is a backyard breeder and many very respectable breeders gave their excellent opinions.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

The Laughing Magpie said:


> Just to be clear, I have always even in the past, pointed out where a dog comes from does not matter we love them regardless and I have always extended a warm welcome to all the new people on the forum. Some folks just don't know any better, this is why the forum is important. I don't feel in this setting it is nice to attack someone on a personal level, most people don't even know they're a BB. Some of the senior members on the forum have gotten their first dog in the wrong way and have had much heartbreak and expense. Although I will never say harsh words to someone who's dog came from not the best source, I will not extend that feeling to a BB (I will not attack them personally), I will speak up and say breeding purebred dogs in order to answer the demand for pets in not ok. I personally feel the scope of this forum cannot address every breeder, again my problem is once you put it out there suddenly the tone becomes I'm not planing on showing or breeding so this is the right way to get the puppy of my dreams.


I know you have! You are one of the awesome, warm and welcoming members I was referring to (as accepting everyone!) and you've always been full of such great advice and direction on this topic, I was really referring to a few years back, nothing very recent

Kara


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

mckennasedona said:


> This will always be an emotional topic. I do have a question though. If you were in the market for a puppy and you knew a show breeder who did all the necessary testing, did the socialization and even the begining potty training, and you knew someone who did not show their dogs but did do the health testing and the socialization and begining potty training, which would you buy from and why? Me, I'd choose the show breeder. Granted not all show breeders are good ones but the ones I know really are familar with the lines they have and with every litter they are looking for the pup that most closely resembles the standard to be their next champion, and the sire or dam to future litters thus ensuring that a Havanese will stay a Havanese. Those that I know, both Havanese and at least one other breed, love their dogs very much. It's truly a labor of love.
> If you would choose the other breeder, why? Just curious?


Hands down, the show breeder. If all else was the same, of course! Put it this way, I recently helped my sister and brother purchase hav's. Both their pups came from show breeders that health tested They couldn't be happier with their dogs. I want to add temperament is very important to me too. A good breed will breed not only for physical type but also for the correct temperament of the breed.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I am glad this thread turned into a real discussion on this topic. I also want to point out that many show breeders, stop showing after a championship and just keep breeding... so they are show lines but are they to current show standards? are the offspring all shown? and in that case are they any different than a hobby breeder? To me it all comes down to health first, and looks a close second. again if I ever get a third, I have a look I like, and I want to know that there are a lot of old, healthy havanese still living in that particular line. 

But back to one of the points Linda made. Personal attacks attacks are just wrong. And especially towards someone who we all know has and will do everything she can to take care of this breed. 

you know in the end...lets all educate as best we can...but who are any of us to judge anyone else? We can judge by choosing not to engage with the person if we want to take a stand, we can judge by not buying a puppy if we don't feel it is the best fit.


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## Narwyn (Jan 24, 2010)

Missy said:


> I am glad this thread turned into a real discussion on this topic. I also want to point out that many show breeders, stop showing after a championship and just keep breeding... so they are show lines but are they to current show standards? are the offspring all shown? and in that case are they any different than a hobby breeder? To me it all comes down to health first, and looks a close second. again if I ever get a third, I have a look I like, and I want to know that there are a lot of old, healthy havanese still living in that particular line.


Standards don't change very often, and when they do, it's generally some tweaks and points of clarification. Many standards in use are 20, 30, 40 years old... or older. That's a lot of generations of dogs.

A lot of people get a Championship and then stop because competing as a champion is a whole different ball game. At that point, it's the fun of Nationals rankings and/or showing off your REALLY good ones (they call 'em "Specials" for a reason). So unless you're interested in that kind of competition, there's nothing bad about stopping after they get their championship if you're just looking at breeding stock.

That being said, a good breeder is showing _every generation_ of their dogs, not relying on the Championships of parents or grandparents. Someone toting puppies from "champion lines" who aren't actually shown themselves should usually put up a red flag.

Of course, not every single pup will have the looks to be a show dog. I'd be suspicious of a breeder who thinks they are producing all or even mostly show dogs... I would say their standards are not high enough, or they are being kennel blind. Sometimes you can get lucky and have a fabulous litter, sure, but luck is never consistent! Sometimes you have a litter and none are what you were looking for in a show dog, and sad as that is, you spay/neuter and try something else next time. Lots of people think a show dog is simply the best one in the litter... I would beg to differ.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Well said Missy. I really think most people here are level headed and caring souls who wouldn't dream of knowingly hurting someone. I wonder how many of us could withstand the glaring lights if we were to be judged. I can't help thinking, "judge not, lest ye be judged."


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

lfung5 said:


> Hands down, the show breeder. If all else was the same, of course! Put it this way, I recently helped my sister and brother purchase hav's. Both their pups came from show breeders that health tested They couldn't be happier with their dogs. I want to add temperament is very important to me too. A good breed will breed not only for physical type but also for the correct temperament of the breed.


I agree completely... And, I ALSO want that breeder to provide an enriched environment for the puppies, with lots of opportunities for socialization before I take the puppy home. Oh, and I want the breeder to have gotten the puppy well on it's way toward potty training too!:biggrin1:

And I guess the bottom line is that if you are willing to hold out for what you want, wait and perhaps travel, you CAN get a puppy from a breeder who does all of these things. So I see no reason to cut corners.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Missy said:


> I am glad this thread turned into a real discussion on this topic. I also want to point out that many show breeders, stop showing after a championship and just keep breeding... so they are show lines but are they to current show standards? are the offspring all shown? and in that case are they any different than a hobby breeder? To me it all comes down to health first, and looks a close second. again if I ever get a third, I have a look I like, and I want to know that there are a lot of old, healthy havanese still living in that particular line.


For me, it's health first, temperament and a good early environment a HUGE second, and looks an important third.



Missy said:


> *But back to one of the points Linda made. Personal attacks attacks are just wrong. And especially towards someone who we all know has and will do everything she can to take care of this breed. *


Amen to that!!!

Karen


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Well, I guess I think of it more as having the knowledge rather than cutting corners. That's why I love the forum so much!

*"That being said, a good breeder is showing every generation of their dogs, not relying on the Championships of parents or grandparents. Someone toting puppies from "champion lines" who aren't actually shown themselves should usually put up a red flag"*

Very well said Kat! Pins it right down! This is what separates the "big time" breeders!


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

krandall said:


> For me, it's health first, temperament and a good early environment a HUGE second, and looks an important third.
> 
> Amen to that!!!
> 
> Karen


I totally agree. For me it's health, temperament/sex, looks.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Narwyn said:


> Standards don't change very often, and when they do, it's generally some tweaks and points of clarification. Many standards in use are 20, 30, 40 years old... or older. That's a lot of generations of dogs.
> 
> A lot of people get a Championship and then stop because competing as a champion is a whole different ball game. At that point, it's the fun of Nationals rankings and/or showing off your REALLY good ones (they call 'em "Specials" for a reason). So unless you're interested in that kind of competition, there's nothing bad about stopping after they get their championship if you're just looking at breeding stock.
> 
> ...


The one thing I noticed, pups were getting their Championship very young. When they became adults and were bred, some were no longer standard.

I got my guys 5-7 years ago. I did notice because our standard states 8.5-11.5 inches in height, the dogs were bigger back then. Seems the trend is to breed smaller and I'm not really liking these tiny hav's with flat coats I'm seeing.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

krandall said:


> For me, it's health first, temperament and a good early environment a HUGE second, and looks an important third.
> 
> Karen


Duh! Yes, I would actually put it that order too.


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## Narwyn (Jan 24, 2010)

lfung5 said:


> The one thing I noticed, pups were getting their Championship very young. When they became adults and were bred, some were no longer standard.
> 
> I got my guys 5-7 years ago. I did notice because our standard states 8.5-11.5 inches in height, the dogs were bigger back then. Seems the trend is to breed smaller and I'm not really liking these tiny hav's with flat coats I'm seeing.


Again - the really good, really responsible breeders are re-evaluating their dogs with each breeding to make sure they're what they're still really looking for in a breeding program. Any breeder worth their salt isn't relying _only_ on a championship, especially one achieved at under a year of age, for their breeding stock. It is heartbreaking to have invested time and money into a promising puppy who didn't turn out to be the show dog you'd hoped - you still love them - kind of like your kid who didn't grow up to be a Doctor or Lawyer or whatever 

Height will trend up and down, especially with the huge variation we have in our breed (three inches can be more than 1/3 the total height!). I will say that in pets I see a lot more oversize than undersize. Of course breeding in our standard's clearly stated "preferred range" is the way to go! (9.0 - 10.5").


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## The Laughing Magpie (Aug 20, 2009)

This is what I was saying the scope of this forum can not entertain all the veritables. Some show breeders do quit showing but, they will have dogs out there co-owned, showing. Many dogs not only Havanese get a championship before they quite growing, when a good breeder realizes that the dog is out of standard they retire it. Breeders who show their dogs to championships, have independent, objective verification that their dogs conform to the standreds of the breed.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

Narwyn said:


> Standards don't change very often, and when they do, it's generally some tweaks and points of clarification. Many standards in use are 20, 30, 40 years old... or older. That's a lot of generations of dogs.
> 
> A lot of people get a Championship and then stop because competing as a champion is a whole different ball game. At that point, it's the fun of Nationals rankings and/or showing off your REALLY good ones (they call 'em "Specials" for a reason). So unless you're interested in that kind of competition, there's nothing bad about stopping after they get their championship if you're just looking at breeding stock.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more.

What I think is interesting is "hobby" breeders who have more than a couple of litters a year and say that they do it for the love of the breed, but say that show breeders are somehow trying to make a profit. The hobby breeder would be making a heck of a lot more profit considering they're not paying for show entrance fees, hotels, flights, health testing, etc. Just an observation to take into consideration.


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## Cailleach (Jan 30, 2010)

Narwyn said:


> Standards don't change very often, and when they do, it's generally some tweaks and points of clarification. Many standards in use are 20, 30, 40 years old... or older. That's a lot of generations of dogs.
> 
> A lot of people get a Championship and then stop because competing as a champion is a whole different ball game. At that point, it's the fun of Nationals rankings and/or showing off your REALLY good ones (they call 'em "Specials" for a reason). So unless you're interested in that kind of competition, there's nothing bad about stopping after they get their championship if you're just looking at breeding stock.
> 
> ...


This post To Me is priceless.

Tactful.

Diplomatic.

TRUE


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Semantics is important here too. Aren't show breeders hobby breeders? I always thought the terms interchangable since showing dogs is a hobby, right? They don't make money at showing.....in fact, it's pretty expensive when you consider the entry fees per dog, gasoline to get to the show and home, overnight RV fees if you stay the weekend, and incidentals. They don't win money if their dog wins, they get ribbons. The only place money comes into it would be in puppies, right? (Or placing bets....does Vegas put odds on Westminster and Eukanuba? ...) Even then, puppies aren't profitable when you consider all the costs involved in that, like stud fees, vet fees, occassional c-section fees, etc. It seems like a hobby to me and an expensive one at that.
Now, backyard breeder has a definite negative connotation and I think we can all agree that those people who just put two dogs together without any thought at all and sell the puppies fall into that category.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

I think all hobby breeders are show breeders, but not all show breeders are hobby breeders. Does that make sense? When a breeder shows but has tons of dogs and are pumping out tons of liters a year, maybe that is a "show breeder". To me the hobby breeder is much smaller and does it for the love of the dog. Because this is their hobby, I do believe they health test and show. They do what's in the best interest of their dogs.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I have been following this thread and it is very interesting to read the different views.

To me: The difference between a back yard breeder and a puppy mill is the number of breeding dogs they have and maybe a back yard breeder spends more time with the dog? 

Please keep in mind I work at a vet clinic and assist with emergencies when needed:

Yesterday an emergency came in....a small female dog wrapped in a blanket. A Mom,Dad and little girl. She was pregnant and had a puppy stuck. I was basically thinking I may have to assist in a c'section. Thankfully Doc got the puppy out without having to open her up. The puppy was dead. The female seemed to be doing okay. The people leave. I find out this was chihauhau/shih tzu mix that had been bred to a basset hound.:der: I mean ---seriously? I can not believe anyone could be that stupid. I know that isn't nice...and someone can say I am judging those people....but I am calling it as it is based on what I see. I am the one who had to dispose of the puppy,they almost lost the mother. This dog was smaller then my Quincy. Who in their right mind would think breeding a dog of this size to a basset hound would work? The people were approx. my age.....it makes no sense at all. I was told they had planned to keep the pups/not sell them. This to me--is a back yard breeder. Someone who knows very little but puts 2 dogs together anyway. The above story tells a common outcome.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Julie said:


> I have been following this thread and it is very interesting to read the different views.
> 
> To me: The difference between a back yard breeder and a puppy mill is the number of breeding dogs they have and maybe a back yard breeder spends more time with the dog?
> 
> ...


 That is sick. The poor dog


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

The Laughing Magpie said:


> Wow!!! Have I been a sleep!!! Just reading this has made me think the forum is now saying it's ok to just breed Havanese because you like the breed, you're a nice person, and you socialize your pups and keep them in your home. What happend to responsible breeding???? That is, breeding to the standard, health testing, and, yes, showing so that there is independent, objective verification of the quality of the dogs. I thought we are supposed to be promoting responsible breeding/?????
> 
> I personally have no problem with handlers, yes they are good, that is their job and how they get paid. Why would anyone expect less? Many Breeders handle their own dogs and win!!! Anyone showing is supposed to bring out the best in the dog in any way they can.
> 
> ...


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

I have to say that I really wished that I had found this forum "before" I got my first Havanese. Abby was an older puppy from a breeder (?) who supposedly had her the whole time. I think part of her problem was lack of socialization and part her temperament. We have had issues with her behaviorally which persist to this day though she is so much better than when we got her. Healthwise - no problems whatsoever - only to the vet for check-ups and shots.

But, thanks to this forum I had made up my mind that if I ever did get another puppy it would be from a reputable breeder who did health-testing. McGee's breeder does the health-testing, showing, and above all just really loves the dogs! Nearly all her waking minutes are about the dogs.

When I joined this forum I had never even heard of health-testing! What an education I have received and enjoyed these past few years. I love every one of you!


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## El Bueno Habanero (Oct 20, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> Champion dogs are not necessarily healthy dogs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedigree_Dogs_Exposed


Totally agree with you Dave! Few months ago there was a serious documentary on the tv in the Netherlands called 'The end of a pure breed dog' made by a respectable television station where they exposed things like champions dogs who are seriously sick, but still used for the breeding, because they have CH in front of their names. That way breeder can ask more for his/her puppies. Here is the link for ppl who speak Dutch:
http://beta.uitzendinggemist.nl/afleveringen/1017133-einde-van-de-rashond

'Champion parents' personally means nothing to me, because in my view it's mostly politics. I've visited many dog shows and have enough inside information about what's going on and all I can say I really don't care about showing. I can totally understand that there are breeders who don't like to show their dogs (it's not a nice honest world in my opinion, and not even near to an objective one!). 
As long as the breeders health test and take loving care of their dogs I'm ok with that. I would always choose a hobby breeder with one or two litters in a year over one with a champion dogs with tons of puppies at the same time. No one can convince me that this breeder has time and enough hands to socialize this puppies in a proper way. 
And in the end we must not forget we are talking about living beings here, not a perfect piece of furniture.


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

I think it is good to learn all you can before starting out any breeding of any dog. I read threw the posts on the other forum and got some new perspective on why one would show a dog before breeding.
I have been attending several dog shows over the last few months. The last one had three professional trainers.I videoed the best of show just to watch and learn more. The thee dogs being handled that were already champions were really nice Havanese. I was pleased that a member of my club got reserve. ( I think she was second in line)
It was fun to watch the puppy's there was only one girl and one boy so the competition was not really there. It is true that a dog has to be seen by a number of judges in order to accomplish a championship and the AKC maybe should change the rules of giving a puppy a title like that. If I were to have a puppy before the age of really being full grown get a championship I would think Id be so excited to continue showing that dog.
By the way Zoey started her first confirmation class and she is a natural stacker and walks with me great!  The only thing I didn't like was when I put her up on the table her tail went down and she has never done that before so I know she was not happy.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Don't get me wrong guys. As much as the ring is a lot of politics, if I was going to breed, I would show my dogs myself. I love a good challenge! I would want to start of on the right foot, as I said before.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

lfung5 said:


> Don't get me wrong guys. As much as the ring is a lot of politics, if I was going to breed, I would show my dogs myself. I love a good challenge! I would want to start of on the right foot, as I said before.


you go girl., You'd be a good breeder. Put me down for one. Linda's Lovely Lappihavs.


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## El Bueno Habanero (Oct 20, 2009)

lfung5 said:


> ...I'm not really liking these tiny hav's with flat coats I'm seeing.


If I remember correctly the original Cuban standard from 1963 says hair is quite flat? There was also a mention of weight not to exceed 6 kilos. I tend to believe Cubans more (I think they know the breed that has been with them for centuries!), then some FCI people who get to change the breed standards to fit the dogs that have been produced rather than vice versa.

I don't know where you get to see this 'tiny hav's with flat coats', would love to have one lol. Lucky you :biggrin1:. The most hav's I see around are rather big with wavy, and often even curly coats!


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## Narwyn (Jan 24, 2010)

El Bueno Habanero said:


> Totally agree with you Dave! Few months ago there was a serious documentary on the tv in the Netherlands called 'The end of a pure breed dog' made by a respectable television station where they exposed things like champions dogs who are seriously sick, but still used for the breeding, because they have CH in front of their names. That way breeder can ask more for his/her puppies. Here is the link for ppl who speak Dutch:
> http://beta.uitzendinggemist.nl/afleveringen/1017133-einde-van-de-rashond
> 
> 'Champion parents' personally means nothing to me, because in my view it's mostly politics. I've visited many dog shows and have enough inside information about what's going on and all I can say I really don't care about showing. I can totally understand that there are breeders who don't like to show their dogs (it's not a nice honest world in my opinion, and not even near to an objective one!).
> ...


And let me reiterate...

Absolutely NO responsible breeder EVER:
- Knowingly breeds unhealthy dogs, in fact they won't breed a dog who they have any suspicion might be unhealthy or might produce unhealthy offspring
- Thinks of dogs as "furniture" or anything other than living beings with unique and very real needs
- Owns more dogs than they can properly care for 
- Breeds "tons of puppies" no matter the time frame, so they CAN properly socialize and train EVERY single one

If you're talking to someone otherwise... RUN

You should not be choosing between a non-showing breeder or a mass-producing breeder who happens to show... you should be finding a breeder who is showing, AND health testing, AND only producing/owning a number of dogs they can truly care for with regard to correct temperament and proper socialization and training.

Champion parents means something, but it should not mean everything. Just like a good temperament means something, but not everything. Just like health clearances mean something, but not everything. No single one of these is the be-all-end-all in evaluating breeding stock, they need to exist in combination.

I'm sorry that some feel dog shows are all politics. I strongly disagree. It's true that as human beings no one can be perfectly objective, but, across a variety of informed opinions, you can arrive there.

Speaking of people not being objective, I would also recommend you do some research on that "purebred dogs exposed" and the journalism that went with it. HSUS and PETA loves throwing videos around so we will be legislated out of ever owning a pet ever again. Most paint all breeders as reprehensible with no effort to educate about the truly responsible and dedicated ones. If you enjoy owning your purebred Hav, think twice about the message you're sending. No excuses for irresponsible breeders, but let's allow the responsible ones to continue giving us the dogs we love.

Edited to add:

Whenever a handler shows a dog, they will list at the time of entry that they are showing the dog. It is rare for handlers do go unlisted because it's like handing out business cards because their name is in the catalog, free advertising!

MB-F is a big dog show superintendent. Whenever an agent or handler is showing a dog, they are listed as such. In response to "Judges only put up handlers" they crunched the numbers on entries with and without a handler...

For 2009:
82,237 Winners awards
11,239 (14%) were given to dogs with a handler listed and
70,998 (86%) were awarded to dogs with no agent listed.

51,176 Bests of Breed awards
17,566 (34%) were awarded to dogs with a handler listed and
33,610 (66%) were awarded to dogs with no agent listed.

Broken down for Havanese -
Winners, No Agent: 760 or 86.27%
Winners, with Handler: 121 or 13.73%
Best Of Breed, No Agent: 242 or 55.38%
Best of Breed, with Handler: 195 or 44.62%

As you go to higher levels of competition (Group, Best in Show) you do see more of a 50/50 split. But continuing to compete past a championship is a different ball game, on a lot of levels, so I don't think really applies to our breeding stock conversation.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

Oprah did a show on puppy mills. The guy from the rescue said, he had nothing against people buying pups from RESPONSIBLE dog breeders. He said, responsible dog breeders pups don't end up in rescues. I liked that. I argue with my PETA friend all the time, that she shouldn't be upset with responsible dog breeders!


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## El Bueno Habanero (Oct 20, 2009)

Narwyn said:


> I'm sorry that some feel dog shows are all politics. I strongly disagree.


I appreciate your opinion. Love to hear that it's not only politics! It's only my personal observation (and what I hear from some breeders I know). If this is not true I applaud that.



Narwyn said:


> Most paint all breeders as reprehensible with no effort to educate about the truly responsible and dedicated ones. If you enjoy owning your purebred Hav, think twice about the message you're sending. No excuses for irresponsible breeders, but let's allow the responsible ones to continue giving us the dogs we love.


It's rather difficult for an outsider to know if a breeder is truly a responsible one or not. Sadly, I know from a personal experience that even breeders who are well known and respected (and member of a hav club in my case) are not to be trusted. If i can't trust breeder who is registered havanese breeder then there must be something wrong. 
I never said that all the ppl who show are irresponsible or breed with unhealthy dogs, only that for me personally it's not of any importance when choosing a breeder whether they show or not.


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## lfung5 (Jun 30, 2007)

El Bueno Habanero said:


> I appreciate your opinion. Love to hear that it's not only politics! It's only my personal observation (and what I hear from some breeders I know). If this is not true I applaud that.
> 
> It's rather difficult for an outsider to know if a breeder is truly a responsible one or not. Sadly, I know from a personal experience that even breeders who are well known and respected (and member of a hav club in my case) are not to be trusted. If i can't trust breeder who is registered havanese breeder then there must be something wrong.
> I never said that all the ppl who show are irresponsible or breed with unhealthy dogs, only that for me personally it's not of any importance when choosing a breeder whether they show or not.


This is true. Freddie's breeder was not only referred to me by a very well respected responsible breeder, but by the Havanese Club of America referral list! His breeder also worked with Havanese rescue. He was not socialized at all, he was not even started on his housebreaking, his patellas are grade 2 & 3, the breeder is unreachable, and he is too tall for the standard. I think most unexperienced puppy buyers would have given up on him. He was a total disaster. He took me 1.5 years to housebreak and is very very timid. Did I mention he was kept in a KENNEL! Yes, in a cage with a pan underneath to catch his pee/poo. Why did I not know this? I had him shipped! I didn't know better, was too trusting, naive and I didn't know about this forum. Thank God, I didn't give up because he is the sweetest dog, but it took a lot of hard work and frustration.

Here is what I find ironic. Freddie's breeder was very involved with HRI, maybe she still is. She didn't care what I did with Fred. I could have bred him for all she cared. Sadly, I've seen a lot of her pups used in backyard breeding and I am sure in puppy mills. How ironic is that? Working for rescue, but letting your pups get into the wrong hands. Which is really the reason most pups end up in HRI. I often think if Fred could have wound up in a puppy mill, if I didn't buy him.....scary!

****A responsible breeder will also ask for a spay/neuter contract. they care where their puppies go. They are very selective in who they sell their puppies to.

And my point was, if someone doesn't show, and I can argue both sides of the fence, are they to be labeled a backyard breeder? In my opinion, they can produce a very sound and healthy pup. I think most puppy buyers could care less about the Ch title. The fact the breeder is doing all the other things, might be good enough for most buyers. Again, I am not saying a breeder should not show, but they should not be subjected to rude attacks.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Narwyn said:


> And let me reiterate...
> 
> You should not be choosing between a non-showing breeder or a mass-producing breeder who happens to show... you should be finding a breeder who is showing, AND health testing, AND only producing/owning a number of dogs they can truly care for with regard to correct temperament and proper socialization and training.
> 
> Champion parents means something, but it should not mean everything. Just like a good temperament means something, but not everything. Just like health clearances mean something, but not everything. No single one of these is the be-all-end-all in evaluating breeding stock, they need to exist in combination.


I agree completely! That's how I want to choose a dog. Pure bred dogs are expensive. KEEPING a dog for 15 years is MORE expensive. I want to spend my money as wisely as possible... and it IS possible.



Narwyn said:


> MB-F is a big dog show superintendent. Whenever an agent or handler is showing a dog, they are listed as such. In response to "Judges only put up handlers" they crunched the numbers on entries with and without a handler...
> <snip statistics>


Funny, because I am on the BOD of a large photography club. We have some "special" competitions, but the competitions that lead toward points and year end awards are "open", which means any subject matter. We heard a lot of grumbling that "landscape photographers didn't stand a chance", or "only wild life photographers could win". So, like the show super you talked about, I crunched the numbers, and found that the number of points were VERY evenly divided between genera.

People get very focused on their own work (or animal). When they don't do well, it's human nature to start to notice the other "owner handlers" who also don't do well. It's like cars... I hardly notice brands/models of cars, but I DO notice a car that is the same as mine coming down the road toward me! (of course, these days, that's a little easier since I drive a Mini Cooper!ound

I think it's fine not to like conformation showing... if you want to breed, you can get someone else to handle for you. But my experience is that in any type of competition, SOMEONE thinks the deck is stacked against them. My thing is performance, but when I don't do well, my response is to work harder. All "professional" means is that the person gets paid for what they do. There are LOTS of good owner handlers who COULD be "professionals" if they chose. Instead, they choose to breed the dogs they love and present them as well as possible by themselves. They take a lot of pleasure in doing it all themselves.

That's NOT to say that there is never any bad judging in a sport, but people learn to avoid those judges, and when organizers find that entries drop off or they get a lot of complaints about a certain judge, it's unlikely that they will continue using that person. In my horse show career, there were certainly a few judges I wouldn't show under. But I knew who they were, and voted with my feet.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

lfung5 said:


> This is true. Freddie's breeder was not only referred to me by a very well respected responsible breeder, but by the Havanese Club of America referral list! His breeder also worked with Havanese rescue. He was not socialized at all, he was not even started on his housebreaking, his patellas are grade 2 & 3, the breeder is unreachable, and he is too tall for the standard. I think most unexperienced puppy buyers would have given up on him. He was a total disaster. He took me 1.5 years to housebreak and is very very timid. Did I mention he was kept in a KENNEL! Yes, in a cage with a pan underneath to catch his pee/poo. Why did I not know this? I had him shipped! I didn't know better, was too trusting, naive and I didn't know about this forum. Thank God, I didn't give up because he is the sweetest dog, but it took a lot of hard work and frustration.
> 
> Here is what I find ironic. Freddie's breeder was very involved with HRI, maybe she still is. She didn't care what I did with Fred. I could have bred him for all she cared. Sadly, I've seen a lot of her pups used in backyard breeding and I am sure in puppy mills. How ironic is that? Working for rescue, but letting your pups get into the wrong hands. Which is really the reason most pups end up in HRI. I often think if Fred could have wound up in a puppy mill, if I didn't buy him.....scary!
> 
> ...


Getting off track seems to be something we're very good at here.:focus:

I don't think "backyard breeder" has a specific meaning. It means different things to different people, and the breeders will be on a continuum. Same is really true about "puppy mills". Some of them really do take good PHYSICAL care of the dogs they breed. From an animal husbandry and financial point of view, it only makes sense. That doesn't mean that they are raising dogs in a way that _I_ would be willing to buy one.

I think it's much easier to flip the question and ask what is on your "must have" list for a breeder, and what things you'd be less concerned about. I honestly think that the number of breeders who are doing EVERYTHING you'd like them to but NOT showing is probably very few. They probably have no trouble at all finding good homes for their puppies in their local community just via word of mouth.

As to your second question, as far as I'm concerned, NO ONE should be subject to rude attacks. So, I THINK I stayed on topic!ound:


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## Suzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Here is a example of something I have been wondering about. Say you have a female Havanese who you have been trying to get your last major for about a year. The dog keeps coming in behind the winner. You really wan't to breed her there is just something about the dog that judges keep placing her in second place. Why would that dog not be a good breeding dog?


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## LeighaMason (Dec 16, 2010)

Here is why I think showing is important, its like building a house. 

Showing is to confirm that the bones and muscles are in the correct place and working properly. This gives the "foundation" of the dog. 

Then you do health testing for the organs. Now you are building the walls by having the correct organs (eyes, heart, liver, etc.) on the correct foundation (bones & muscles).

Now you pick the right roof by only breeding dogs with a good temperament. 

Your friends, family and even strangers can be a great guide on whether your dog has great temperament, and the health testing can tell you if it has great organs but you need someone with lots of experience with that breed of dogs to tell you if it has the proper bone and muscle structure to meet the breed standard. 

And just like the fact that you cant build a good house with a bad foundation, you can't breed a good puppy without the proper foundation of good bone and muscle structure in the parents.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I'd also like to point out another option that many people don't seem to think of. I went to a trainer I know, told her I wanted to buy a Havanese puppy, well, I started wanting either a Hav or a Coton, but for a number of reasons ended up with the Hav<g>) I did the preliminary work of searching for breeders, using a list of questions that she had given me. When I had narrowed it down to the few I liked best, SHE called and talked to the breeders for me. Then I actually brought her with me when I went to see the breeder's facility, meet the parents and to temperament test the puppies. It might seem a bit anal, but I knew enough to know that I didn't know enough to find a good dog, and I didn't want to make a big mistake.

I know that the trainers at the training center I use regularly help people find dogs. It's not necessarily the cheapest way to find a puppy, but when you don't know what you are doing, it is a HUGE help.


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

That's great advice, Karen! After I already had Abby and were having all kinds of issues I then called the trainer I had used at the college to teach our dog obedience courses and asked for advice. Of course, she helped me but said "Why didn't you call me and I would have helped you find a reputable breeder?"! :brick:


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## Rudyshar8 (Feb 6, 2011)

Bravo, Linda...Yes, I do agree, she is the most kindest, loving person in the world, and does so much for the Havanese, that I think this woman should really mind her own business...everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but keep them to yourself if you have nothing nice to say. Thanks Linda


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

Just my opinion...and I am sticking with it. 

I feel like there are different levels of backyard breeders. Like the lowest level would be: Clueless, oh my dog got pregnant, so what! They are dogs and that is what they do. And, then work up the levels...I haven't got this all figured out yet...but, there are backyard breeders...out for the money, and that's all, they do not care about the breed, it is my dog, I want to breed her. 

Are you all kind of understand where I am going? 

Maybe the highest level ....you really care about your dog (socialize, training, etc.) you do not show your dogs) you genuinely love your dog and will get your dog all the vaccinations, check-ups, etc.,

Ok? What do you think?


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## El Bueno Habanero (Oct 20, 2009)

Good advice Karen. It may work for ppl in America, because i read here on the forum that many ppl have a personal trainer! What a luxury! People in the Netherlands are crazy about their pets, and many would do anything for their pets. I don't know it is something cultural or so, but I don't know anybody who has a personal trainer except for ppl with really big wallets. 'Normal' ppl just can't afford this. 
And there is another problem when talking about havs. When somebody asks me what breed Fedja is 99% of ppl never heard of havanese. Not even a folks who do obedience and that kind of stuff. Havs are still a rare breed over here, which is good as the backyard breeders have not discovered them (yet). So, who to ask for help then?
This is what happened in my case. After many months of thinking I decided i would love to have a dog. Then, almost a year long, I researched all the possible breeds on the net, with a list of thing I was searching in a dog. Every time I came back to the hav. I never saw one in person, and must honestly say that I was not so crazy about havs look back then. 
After many hours of reading I finally decided hav it will be because it sounded like my ideal dog (boy am I still happy with my decision eace, and looked for the list of reputable breeders on the Havanese Club website. When I found one with an available puppy I liked I even called with a club to ask some questions about this particular breeder. They told me basically 'She is on our list, so she is ok'. Ok then, and so I got my sweet Fedja. In the end I ended up with a not so good breeder, but that's another story. And I wouldn't trade my Fedja for no dog in a world as you all understand.
This is me. But an 'average' person don't do so much work finding a suitable breed for their family. They decide they want a dog, and many ppl I know made their decision mostly based on looks. They don't have a time or for ever reason they don't want to do a research for days, let forget months, before deciding on a dog. It would be easy now to say those people should not have a dog in a first place, but we all know that this is how things work. 
So my question would be: why is it my job as a regular pet owner to do so much work if I want to make sure I'm not helping some bad folks to stay in business? What are all this clubs doing?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

HavaneseSoon said:


> Just my opinion...and I am sticking with it.
> 
> I feel like there are different levels of backyard breeders. Like the lowest level would be: Clueless, oh my dog got pregnant, so what! They are dogs and that is what they do. And, then work up the levels...I haven't got this all figured out yet...but, there are backyard breeders...out for the money, and that's all, they do not care about the breed, it is my dog, I want to breed her.
> 
> ...


I agree. I think "Back Yard Breeder" means different things to different people.

I remember, many years ago, I sold a very expensive conformation hunter mare. I've always kept my horses at home, so technically, they are in my "back yard". But believe me, you all know how I work with and care for Kodi, and my horses are no different. The person who eventually bought her brought their trainer to look at her, and he was a very high mucky-muck in the show hunter world. He said to me, "You've done a great job with her, for a back yard horse." I'm pretty sure he meant it as a compliment... I took it as an insult.:croc:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

El Bueno Habanero said:


> Good advice Karen. It may work for ppl in Amerika, because i read here on the forum that many ppl have a personal trainer! What a luxury! People in the Netherlands are crazy about their pets, and many would do anything for their pets. I don't know it is something cultural or so, but I don't know anybody who has a personal trainer except for ppl with really big wallets. 'Normal' ppl just can't afford this.
> And there is another problem when talking about havs. When somebody asks me what breed Fedja is 99% of ppl never heard of havanese. Not even a folks who do obedience and that kind of stuff. Havs are still a rare breed over here, which is good as the backyard breeders have not discovered them (yet). So, who to ask for help then?
> This is what happened in my case. After many months of thinking I decided i would love to have a dog. Then, almost a year long, I researched all the possible breeds on the net, with a list of thing I was searching in a dog. Every time I came back to the hav. I never saw one in person, and must honestly say that I was not so crazy about havs look back then.
> After many hours of reading I finally decided hav it will be because it sounded like my ideal dog (boy am I still happy with my decision eace, and looked for the list of reputable breeders on the Havanese Club website. When I found one with an available puppy I liked I even called with a club to ask some questions about this particular breeder. They told me basically 'She is on our list, so she is ok'. Ok then, and so I got my sweet Fedja. In the end I ended up with a not so good breeder, but that's another story. And I wouldn't trade my Fedja for no dog in a world as you all understand.
> ...


Hi Sena, I'm not talking about "personal" trainers here... I'm talking about the trainers at a training center where I go for classes. You don't have to be rich to afford lessons in a place like that.

And as far as taking the time to find the right puppy (or even the right breed!)... there are plenty of people who don't do that here in the U.S. either.


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## Narwyn (Jan 24, 2010)

El Bueno Habanero said:


> This is me. But an 'average' person don't do so much work finding a suitable breed for their family. They decide they want a dog, and many ppl I know made their decision mostly based on looks. They don't have a time or for ever reason they don't want to do a research for days, let forget months, before deciding on a dog. It would be easy now to say those people should not have a dog in a first place, but we all know that this is how things work.
> So my question would be: why is it my job as a regular pet owner to do so much work if I want to make sure I'm not helping some bad folks to stay in business? What are all this clubs doing?


Many people are looking for a pet and friend and have nothing specific in mind. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, and a lot of these people end up with mixed breeds from rescue organizations who are great dogs.

If you are looking for something specific - a look, a temperament, things that define a dog as 'purebred' - then I think it is your responsibility to only support those who are working very hard to preserve that specific look/personality you are looking for while also ensuring their dogs are healthy.

I am sorry you had a bad experience with a club - most clubs very specifically note that while their breeder referrals are club members, and as such they have promises to abide by their code of ethics, that time and money are not unlimited to investigate every litter of every person, so the puppy buyer should do their own screening as well. Joining most clubs requires a certain amount of involvement, recommendations from current club members, and swearing to abide by a code of ethics that includes only breeding correct dogs (mentally, physically), so it's like a "short list" for you, but you need to go beyond that, too. This seems fair to me, every club does everything they can (many spend lots of money on education, meet-and-greet, health research, responsible dog ownership, etc) but can't control every person or the honesty of every person. They do their best though!

As Karen noted if you are looking for 12-15+ years of your life, then putting a few weeks or months of effort and research in seems like a reasonable thing to do. If someone doesn't feel like doing this research, support a rescue instead of an irresponsible breeder, IMO.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Kat, I really appreciate you taking the time to explain. You are very articulate and it's nice to read your point of view. You have added a lot to this thread. I also was turned away by the only reputable breeder (that I knew of at the time) in our area, because I worked out of the house a whole 3 days a week. :frusty: I wanted a Hav because in my experience it was the only dog I was not allergic to. My brothers family had a hav and we brought her into our house for 2 weeks and then another 2 weeks before we started our search. I am allergic to poodles! so low allergen mutts were not even a secure choice for me. So, we went with a breeder that sent up a ton of red flags but was willing to sell us Jasper. :frusty::frusty: And quite frankly once I fell in love that was it. The frustrating thing, was that even after I had proven myself a worthy Havmom with pet sitters when I wasn't home, great diet and care, and fully fenced backyard, and recommendations from other reputable's --this same breeder would not place an older puppy with me when we started looking for a 2nd. because at the time Jasper had the option to go out or use a pee pad (in his own potty room that he could access by a doggy door mind you) She didn't want her pup using a pee pad. 

I guess this is a little off topic about showing-- but I wanted to illustrate an example of a case where someone may want a thoroughbred Havanese with no question of mixed blood. But want an option like the person this thread is about who may want to breed without showing. back then I didn't care about standards. I just wanted a dog that wouldn't make me wheeze. that was healthy and raised well. I had fallen in love with the breed. It would have been nice to have an option of someone who did all the testing, all the socialization, and did everything a breeder does, except show. someone who would let me in their home and see the parents and be there for me when issues came up. Someone who was looking for a loving home for their puppies, but who understood, that not everyone is a stay at home mom. With all due respect to breeders, Adopting your first hav can be a very frustrating experience. 

So, Instead Jasper came from someone who probably only cared about the 2k in cash! We feel he was not well socialized and has some temprement problems. But we feel he came to us for a reason. He was meant to be our dog. 

I now know a lot more. And I can see the look of the havs I like, and the coat, and most importantly the temperment. And, I believe many of the great breeders out there would sell me a puppy and feel secure that she would be taken care of... But I would still, if the health of the parents could be proved through generations, and I could meet the mom and see the temprement, and know that this breeder is being mentored and doing everything right, I would still consider it an option. I think as our breed becomes more popular, to keep up with demand more situations like this is a better option than puppy mills or dog brokers and could in fact help keep people from going to one.


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