# Question on limited AKC registration



## Rmcraig3

I bought a 4 mo old hav about 2 weeks ago and when I went online to register him, I noticed it would be a limited registration. Not having been told this, I called the breeder and she says it's because he's too big. He's about 10 lbs now. I'm pretty angry and having checked around the forum, I'm not sure he will be too big. His mom was 10 lb and his dad 8 lb. Is he too big and what are my options. I'm not sure I want to breed him but don't like not being able to register pups if I choose to do so. I need other opinions on his size. Having never seen a hav in person before I bought him, I wasn't familiar with true size, as I had only looked on line and I hadnt heard of a limited registration before. I liked the breeder and didn't see pups parents because we lived pretty far away and she met me half way with the pup. We already are attached to this wonderful little guy, but are disappointed. If we can't get registration changed, should we even both to register him. Please help. Is Tom too big?
Thanks.


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## krandall

Rmcraig3 said:


> I bought a 4 mo old hav about 2 weeks ago and when I went online to register him, I noticed it would be a limited registration. Not having been told this, I called the breeder and she says it's because he's too big. He's about 10 lbs now. I'm pretty angry and having checked around the forum, I'm not sure he will be too big. His mom was 10 lb and his dad 8 lb. Is he too big and what are my options. I'm not sure I want to breed him but don't like not being able to register pups if I choose to do so. I need other opinions on his size. Having never seen a hav in person before I bought him, I wasn't familiar with true size, as I had only looked on line and I hadnt heard of a limited registration before. I liked the breeder and didn't see pups parents because we lived pretty far away and she met me half way with the pup. We already are attached to this wonderful little guy, but are disappointed. If we can't get registration changed, should we even both to register him. Please help. Is Tom too big?
> Thanks.


"Too big" to be a good breeding animal is not at all the same as being just "too big." There are MANY larger Havanese that are on the large side and are WONDERFUL pets. 10 lbs at 4 months definitely sounds on the larger side. Many Havanese are 10 lbs at their adult weight. The size of the parents is not necessarily a sure indicator of the size a pup will attain. My Kodi's partents are 11 and 12 lbs, and he his 16.5. I knew he would be big when I bought him, but didn't care. I was buying him as a performance animal, not as breeding stock.

That all said, if this is your first experience with Havanese, and you bought a dog sight unseen, you are probably not ready to start a breeding program yet anyway. Were your pup's parents both champions? Were they both completely health tested (with good results!)? Are you willing to show your dog to his championship, and neuter him if he proves not to be championship quality? Are you willing to do all appropriate health testing, including waiting until he is at least 2 years old to do final hip x-rays? Do you have someone who can mentor you in finding a bitch who is an appropriate mate for THIS dog? Are you willing to purchase her and go though all the same steps to prove that she is a good breeding candidate?

As you can see, there is a LOT that goes into RESPONSIBLE dog breeding. The fact is, that no responsible breeder will sell puppies with full registration and breeding rights to an inexperienced person. Part of being a responsible breeder is making sure that only the BEST possible puppies are allowed to continue in your lines. There are many dogs that have the conformation and temperament to make wonderful show/breeding dogs that are sold with limited registration to pet homes, just because that is the BEST kind of home for them!

A responsible breeder has a contract that both they and the buyer sign, that outlines all the details of the sale, including type of registration, when the pup must neutered/spayed (assuming limited registration), arrangements to take the pup back should the buyer need to give it up for some reason, health guaranty, purchase price, etc. If you have a contract, you need to read it carefully. If you didn't sign a contract like this, I wonder about your breeder. But it also makes me SURE that you are not ready to start breeding dogs either.

Please enjoy your wonderful puppy and get him neutered at the appropriate age. Of course you don't HAVE to register him, but it is inexpensive, and there are benefits, including a service to help find him if he is ever lost. You are also then eligible to compete in a number of fun and interesting performance sports, like Obedience, Rally and Agility.

If you find, after spending more time with your little guy, that you are TRULY interested in breeding Havanese, join your local breed organization. Go to lots of shows and learn as much as you can about top Havanese conformation. Learn about showing and breeding. Then find a good, reputable breeder who is willing to mentor you. Have them help you decide on breeding stock. Then show those dogs and have them fully health tested. You will still treasure your first "pet quality" boy because being a "pet" is the best thing a Havanese can do!


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## The Laughing Magpie

A limited registration is for a companion dog and that is what most puppy's are. A limited registration allows you to do all AKC events except conformation. You can not show your dog, you should not breed. Good breeders often wait many months before final determation on show quality. Show dogs cost more and have a different contract, also most breeders will not sign off on ownership until a championship on said dog is achieved, and many times there are other rules in the contract. 

Responsible breeders today only sell puppy's on spay/neuter contracts, today they also do limited registration to try and keep backyard breeders out of business. It is not a question of size at this point, the dog was sold as a pet. Enjoy your new puppy for the cute and fun conpanion they will surely be.


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## Rmcraig3

*Thanks for the reply *

Thank you for the reply. I have no intention, for the time being, of breeding Havanese, or showing either. What I was concerned about was spending a fair amount on the puppy and then not being able to have a litter as an option to me. We bought him for a pet but we had no contract with the breeder and I have never heard of a limited registration. About 30 years ago I raised Irish Setters, but that was a world away. As I near my retirement years, I have considered having 1 pair and having a litter occasionally. When I bought Tom, that was to be a start, should I choose to go that route in a couple of years.

When we bought Tom, we had just lost our precious Nubbin the previous week and were grieving. My husband had a stroke in January and spends the days at home with his canine companion. When Nubbin was lost suddenly, I was in a rush to find a replacement, so my husband wouldn't be alone. Had the circumstances been different, I would have taken my time on finding a pup.

Now here we are. Tom suits us fine but the limited registration is a disappointment. I have never seen a "live" Havanese, only on videos and pictures and when I saw Tom, I had no way on knowing that he was too big.

I appreciate professional breeders and respect their judgement, however, I don't think Tom's breeder was forthright about the registration or I may have made a different choice. I appreciate your reply and your honesty. I guess Tom will just be our buddy, and if we get another Hav in the future, we'll certainly do our homework first. Thanks!!


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## rdanielle

In your contract was there a spay/neuter clause? That's an indicator of a limited registration.

Also, be aware if you want to breed if you get another Havanese in the future that a responsible breeder will require an AKC championship first and health testing.


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## TilliesMom

use this time to educate yourself!!!


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## Dory

I guess I have a "big" Hav too LOL. Quincy is almost five months old and at his last vet appointment in the beginning of August, he was 9.7 lbs. He's not overweight and he doesn't overeat, so that's just how big he is. His mom is only 9 lbs and his dad, I think, is only 10 lbs, so parents are definitely not an indicator. Oh, and his sister was three pounds lighter than he was at around the same age. I think the weight for these lil' guys varies quite a bit.
We also have a limited registration, but it's because we bought him as a pet and our contract states that we have to have him neutered.

Would love to see some pics of your little one!


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## rdanielle

Yeah, I don't agree with the weight issue being legitimate as there is no weight limit in the standard. Height should be of more focus as it can be a disqualification if a Hav is below or above standard heights.


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## krandall

rdanielle said:


> Yeah, I don't agree with the weight issue being legitimate as there is no weight limit in the standard. Height should be of more focus as it can be a disqualification if a Hav is below or above standard heights.


True, but an 18-20 lb Hav is either going to be over height, fat, or with VERY short legs!


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## rdanielle

Not necessarily, I have a girl that is 11 inches and 17.5 lbs. She is above the preferred range of height range (preferred range 9.5 to 10.5) by half an inch but I'll take that as she has been the one of the few offspring of her sire to beat the shrinking gene! She's not fat by any means.


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## evolcire

@Rmcraig- Here is the legal answer. First u must answer these questions (to yourself): How did u start communication regarding interest in your puppy? If was by email, did u save all correspondence? In that correspondence was limited and full registration discussed and was spay/neuter discussed? Then comes the contract. The written contract supersedes all prior agreements. But do not trash the correspondence just yet. Not all contracts are created equal and clear. For instance, the word pet has one meaning but among experienced breeders, it has another meaning. The normal people meaning of 'pet' is a companion to spend time with and enjoy. To a breeder 'pet' it is a companion to spend time with and enjoy but, cannot be bred as pure and for profit. So keep all correspondence, it may be used to clarify a poorly written contract. Did the contract specify you must spay/neuter your animal? If not, then strong possibility that u have a civil court case in which you can have the court order the seller to amend your dogs status with AKC. Can the AKC status be changed? Yes, with a letter from the legal owner. Not all breeders are clear and up front about the *business* aspect of your purchase. They do this to expand the list of potential buyers, which in business is unethical. But on the other hand they open themselves to breeders and would be breeders and of course law suits. If you in fact are not a breeder or are knowledgeable about the business, then u are a person and you can prove that the word pet in a contract is meaningless in a business sense. Conversely if you are a breeder and familiar with "dog world" jargon the word pet in a contract can be damaging to your inquiry. Look over poorly written contracts, some of them are poorly written on purpose. Sometimes it is an attempt to sell something under a false understanding. Example: When you look for an item on the internet and you find two that are similar and cost lets say $5000.00. One of the items is 15% more than the other. The pictures of the first item are clear, taken in bright light, and a few angles. The cheaper item pics are taken in poor light and just a tad bit out of focus, just enough out of focus to show the item is clearly as described but the edges are a little warped and it doesnt show in the pics well. The description is the same. So hell, save some bucks and go with the cheaper right? Now ask yourself -Is it really that hard to look at the pics before you post them? Its not like were using photo paper and have to get it developed, scan it, then post it. I had this happen, I didnt make the purchase, but it happened. I asked the person with the poor pics to send more at different angles and better lighting. When I got the pics, 8 new ones, I went straight to the characteristics in properties tab and saw that I had 8 pics from a series of at least 19. I mean DSC3504, DSC3505, DSC3508, DSC3510. The number of the pics tells me he has used the camera quite a bit and should be familiar with it. More pics thrown out than sent tells me they didnt send more than half.


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## evolcire

Another thing "too big"---- are you kidding? So when they are too small, they are "teacup" But this person gets say the dog is too big. Tell him/her you intend to sell them as "beer stein" variety.


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## krandall

evolcire said:


> Another thing "too big"---- are you kidding? So when they are too small, they are "teacup" But this person gets say the dog is too big. Tell him/her you intend to sell them as "beer stein" variety.


People DEFINITELY should avoid Havanese purposely bred small, as "tea cups". These dogs are MUCH more likely to have liver shunts and other health problems.

This is an old thread, but the bottom line is, whether someone could weasel a full registration out of a breeder through the court system or not, someone who knows THIS LITTLE about the breed should NOT be producing puppies.


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