# How do you respond?



## TurboMom (Jan 12, 2010)

We are buying our Havanese from a reputable breeder (he's awesome, and i researched intensely), and yet when I tell some people about us _buying_ a puppy, I get berated. "You should rescue...you should adopt...why are you buying a puppy when there are so many orphans out there...".

Honestly? I have rescued/adopted ALL of my cats (2...both from the street) and 1 dog (from a shelter), and they were great! My husband is allergic however, and my dreams (as well as our sons dreams) of owning a dog are finally coming to fruition because....HUSBAND IS NOT ALLERGIC TO HAVANESE!! :becky: I searched for a Havanese to rescue, but couldn't find any. So I decided to search for a breeder. When I found Jeff, I made an appointment to visit. He brought up a few puppies and we all fell in love with 1 particular little guy, "Gilligan" (now he will be our "Turbo"). We went home and discussed, and did pros/cons lists...and decided YES.

Any way, back to my original point, these comments from friends/family are understandable, but seriously, I am getting annoyed by having to defend ourselves.

Have you/do you go through this? I would love to hear suggestions on how to deal (other than telling them to go away :hand: )

Thanks!!!


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Hi and welcome to the forum! So, who is Jeff? Seems to ring a bell for some reason...??

Ryan


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## margaretandluigi (Mar 12, 2008)

Tell them that you researched all of your options and have decided that purchasing a puppy from this breeder is in the best interest of your family and the most likely to result in finding a pet to live out its life with you.


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## TurboMom (Jan 12, 2010)

Jeff is the breeder


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## TurboMom (Jan 12, 2010)

Margaret- that is exactly what I tell them.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Is this the same breeder? Lots of discussion about him....

http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=6008&highlight=jeff+breeder

Ryan


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

I got the same response from some people when I was so excited about getting Roscoe. I simply told them that both my boyfriend and I are quite allergic to dogs that shed and there is no way to effectively determine if dogs from a shelter will shed or not. The second reason was that we needed to have a dog that would weigh under 30 lbs as our condo association does not permit any larger dogs.

Mostly I just wanted to tell them to mind their own business, as Roscoe came from an extremely responsible, reputable breeder, but I was a little more gentle than that!


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

Beamer said:


> Is this the same breeder? Lots of discussion about him....
> 
> http://havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=6008&highlight=jeff+breeder
> 
> Ryan


I certainly hope that's not her breeder. If it is, I would RUN!!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I simply say that I finally found a breed I am not allergic too, I am even allergic to poodles so I can not risk a rescue of mixed breeds.


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

This may sound direct but honestly I think it's out of line to criticize others like this. We all make decisions that suit us. If I were confronted with this kind of commentary I would quickly and firmly change the subject with the underlying message being - my decision, comfortable with it..not asking for your input.

I'm amazed that people do this...


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

This has come up on here, before. If I cared about the people asking, I have answered that I researched carefully for years because I had an exact list of details I wanted, especially non-shedding, long haired, small, and odor free. There are no dogs like that in the shelters... and if I got a dog, that is what I had to have. So.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Personally I wouldn't dignify the question with an answer other than "I beg your pardon." If they chose to pursue it I would tell them I wouldn't presume to tell them how to live their lives and I'd appreciate the same courtesy.

You don't have to defend your decision to get whatever puppy you choose.


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## gelbergirl (Jun 9, 2007)

none of their business.
just say 'this is my decision after careful research'
and do not engage in debate


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Another answer to anyone who said "Why would you buy when there are so many orphans out there," would be "why would you then choose to have your own children when you coud adopt one of the orphans out there."


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## Lunastar (Feb 9, 2009)

LOL Great answer Geri. I would just show them a picture of the pup or change the subject, if they continue point out that if someone does not buy this pup it too will orphaned. You might also want to point out that purchasing a dog from a good breeder(and I hope it is not the one dave put up link for) is not the same as buying one from a puppy mill or pet store which amounts to a puppy mill dog. As for Havanese in rescue there are plenty. Perhaps for you next on you will consider HRI.

http://www.havaneserescue.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=frontpage&Itemid=200001


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## TurboMom (Jan 12, 2010)

wow...great responses! thank you so much for your input. i really appreciate it.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I don't think I have ever had anyone say that type of stuff to me but most people that know me know how involved with my dogs I am. 

But if you are getting a Havanese from Jeff, he is far from a "reputable" breeder and I hope you look at that thread and reconsider and go with a reputable breeder.


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## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

i think it takes a certain kind of person to adopt a rescue. one who knows dogs, etc. i ahve never had a dog before and knew i could not handle a rescue and the possible issues. this is based on people i know who have rescues and all the behavior problems. 

my feeling is this, you bring an animal into your home, whether it' a rescue or from a breeder and it's your repsonsability to provide the best life and care and love for this animal. Cudos to those who adopt i wish i could be one of them but there's nothing wrong with having a dog from a breeder. donate your puppy stuff to a rescue, i always take old towels, dog pillows, leashes, etc. to the APL you can do your part to help in other ways.


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## newhavaneselover (Nov 25, 2009)

I have heard it also from people, why are you buying and not rescueing or going to a shelter. As much as personally its none of there business, I just tell them I have a child and need to know the temperment of the dog from the begining. Also wanted a puppy to grow with my child and become the best of friends.


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## TurboMom (Jan 12, 2010)

good point, littlebuddy! thank you 

now...after reading that thread re:jeff, i became ill. literally, sick to my stomach. yes, that is the same jeff. i had no clue about any of this information about his dogs/puppies! if i would have known, and i could just shoot myself for not delving deeper into researching or finding this board ealier, i never would have gone to him  but that being said, i already put a deposit on my Turbo, but money aside? I CANNOT AND WILL NOT LEAVE MY TURBO. he is our pup! and after crying over this last night (so sorry if i sound lame, but i am really upset over this), i just know i can't turn back from Turbo  
i'm not sure how you all will react to this, but i sure hope i can still come around here. if not, if you prefer that i leave this forum, i will understand.


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## trueblue (Jan 22, 2008)

I don't think anyone would ever want you to not stick around, but I know how it is to be attached to a puppy before he even comes home. From personal experience, though, I would seriously re-think the whole decision, try to get my money back, and find another breeder. Believe me, the puppy cuteness isn't worth the heartache down the road.


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## TheVintageVamp (Oct 14, 2009)

Irina,
First of all, I cannot imagine anyone wanting you to leave the forum, regardless of your decision on this.

I can certainly understand not wanting to turn your back on Turbo and also the fact that you and your boys have already bonded with this pup. In light of what you have discovered, though, would you consider requesting an independent veterinarian examination of Turbo before you make any final decision on the matter? If there is an obvious health issue at this point, you would have strong case for getting your deposit returned and in the long run would be saving your sons and yourself a lot of heartache on down the road. I know a clean bill of health at this point will not be an sort of assurance that there won't be problems as Turbo gets older, but it might help a bit....

Hugs to you and I am sorry you are going through this when you should just be filled with joy over your new puppy. It is sad that there unscrupulous 'breeders' such as Jeff around. Little better than a puppy mill.:rant:


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Irina, no need to leave. We love all Havs here not just those from good breeders. 

I've never had anyone tell me straight out that I should have gotten a shelter dog though it's been insinuated. Prior to my two Havs all I ever had were strays and shelter dogs but we wanted a puppy for a change and we wanted a Havanese puppy. Nearly 6 years ago there weren't any Hav puppies in any shelters near me, let alone puppies. Lots of pit bull mixes though. I hadn't ever heard of Havanese Rescue. The pups in rescue are great dogs who deserve great homes but they do come with some baggage. That's why so much time is spent finding just the right homes for them. Not everyone can deal with their issues.
I really like the "why did you have kids" answer. I'm going to remember that one if anyone ever asks me why I didn't rescue (not that I wouldn't in the future).


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## TurboMom (Jan 12, 2010)

Thank you, I am glad to hear you guys say I can stick around. Already, I have found a wealth of information here.

We will bring Turbo to our own vet probably the day we get him (30th), have him checked and if there _are_ any health issues, I will bring all findings back to breeder. I will take it from there then. Honestly? I do not think I would bring Turbo back to him if there was an issue  Here is another corny 'quirk' of mine...everything happens for a reason. 

Thanks, again.


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

Irina,

Of course no one wants you to leave.. People are just very protective around here and want the best hav's possible for everyone.. That Jeff charachter is kinda creepy.. lol

Ryan


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## TurboMom (Jan 12, 2010)

I really appreciate how protective everyone is here (I belong to a parenting board for almost 11 years now, and we are the same there...like family), and I just, I don't know, I suppose after reading all of that, besides feeling like an idiot for not researching this better, I did not know what to do as far as responding here. I am honest to the bone though, and felt the only way I can stick around here was to tell you that, yes, this is where I am getting Turbo from.


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Irina~ I understand where your heart is regarding Turbo. Having him checked by a vet is a good idea. However, be prepared, not all serious health issues will be evident right away. Our Shadow was over 7 mos. old before anything "went wrong". Before making your final decision, ask yourself, are you willing and able to spend the kind of time, energy, heartache and $$$$ that could be in Turbo's future? 

No matter what your decision ends up being, you will always be welcome here :hug:


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

Irina,
I support your decision to stick with Turbo, despite finding out about your breeder. Some on here unknowingly purchased Havs from breeders who weren't the "best", or didn't do all the health testing and ended up with great dogs.
And some dogs from great breeders end up having health problems, despite testing etc.
If you knew about Jeff before, of course you woulnd't have gone with him.

If you are going ahead with Turbo, try to relax and enjoy the anticipation of preparing for his arrival. I'm sure you and your kids are excited.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Irina, you will most certainly be welcome here, no matter which course you choose! We all love the Havanese, and want only the best for the breed and each individual dog. It is the _person_ with the money-making focus and not the health and improvement of the breed that we have trouble with.

This is a hard decision, unless you have money to burn. Then, you can just go with your heart, and not point anyone else to the site of this "questionable" man in the future.

If Turbo turns out to live for his full life with no significant problems, then... well, that will just be the best, and what we will hope for you all! As Nan said, there is no guarantee for any pup to not have problems down the road. We just better the chances for a healthy pup when purchased from a reputable breeder.

Keep up posted.


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## newhavaneselover (Nov 25, 2009)

Irina, You sound like I did, when i found out information regarding a breeder I used. I found this forum after I already put money down on my puppy and fell in love with her. The breeder I used was alot worse than jeff. I even spoke about it in here about how sick I was after I found out about her. I am pretty new in here and I will say everyone is wonderful, helpful and has never turned their back. Its great because everyone is so honest, and in having a new dog it is what you really want.


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## pacehavi (Oct 20, 2008)

Depending, you may also want to look into buying pet insurance. I bought my second puppy from a supposedly very 'good' breeder who shows dogs, does all heath tests, is a prominent member of HCA, etc. etc. Then my puppy developed all sorts of inherited dental problems (malocclusion from an off bite that made her bottom and lower teeth mash together in a very painful way) and I found out that my very good breeder was not so honest and would not stand behind her health guarantee despite the canine dental specialist (not just a regular vet, but a specialist) providing her with all sorts of documentation that it was a genetic problem. Luckily I had purchased Petplan insurance and was able to recoup much of my $$ from the dental bills. So, this may be something you want to look into for your pet. I pay just over $40/mo and it gives me great peace of mind.


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## TurboMom (Jan 12, 2010)

thank you guys! i definitely will NOT point anyone else in this breeder's direction. i am thinking to exchange emails with some of the other parents from the same litter, so that we can keep in touch on the siblings' growth/progress, but also, I think I would like for them to know about Jeff as well, if possible by pointing them in the direction of this forum. Thoughts about this? 

RE: insurance...YES! That is my next question, and actually, a co-worker of mine just left an ad for Petplan on my desk. I am pretty sure I have seen threads on here regarding pet insurance, so I will plug into those.

Thank you!


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## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

yes on the pet insurance! i wish we had it from the get go, can't get it now, poor guy has a pre-existing condition!


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## TurboMom (Jan 12, 2010)

We will definitely do the pet insurance, it's just a matter of finding the right one for us. I thought I saw a Poll thread on insurance brands...just to see a breakdown of percentages here, am I wrong? (I cannot locate it now) :doh:


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## Beamer (Jan 29, 2007)

I have pet insurance for Beamer which is around $40 a month. Had it for 2.5 years now and have spent around $1300 so far. I have never used it yer! (knock on wood).. But I guess it is comforting to know it is avalaible in caseof an emergency. You do have to be careful of what type you buy, as some of them will not cover various conditions. ughhh..

Ryan


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## TurboMom (Jan 12, 2010)

I work in an insurance company, but I have no clue about the pet insurance. I'm on the administrative side of it any way, lol. Luckily though, I have plenty of friends here who are lawyers, and very familiar with policies/policy language. Something tells me I'll become a nuisance to them pretty soon


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## pacehavi (Oct 20, 2008)

Petplan does cover genetic and inheritable diseases, and they are 'insurance for life' meaning that if your pet does get a disease they won't terminate your policy when it is up for renewal (which I guess some companies do). The dental bills cost about $3000 and with deductions and a few exclusions (routine cleaning and sealant) we got about $2000 back--so well worth it for us. They were also quick with the payout once we got the vet clinics to fax all the right info. It does not cover routine care such as office visits, spay/neuter, etc. or pre-existing conditions, which is why I bought it right away. Oh, it also has a 2 week waiting period once you do purchase it.


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

I am going to respond again.....Most, I say most.....maybe 97% of the people who ask me about Dexter, do not know about the Havanese breed. 

I always tell people I wanted a particular breed, look (I wanted the shaggy little dog), size (that will stay small), character, and that is smart. 

I am about tired of telling people what breed Dexter is because, I do not want them to think that this common breed, that they can put outside and ignore. 

How about a "little shaggy dog," a dog I had researched on the internet for a year.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Well I just tell them that it's my money my dog and my business. Course, I don't get many points for being tactful around here. Must come from running an all male business.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TurboMom said:


> We will bring Turbo to our own vet probably the day we get him (30th), have him checked and if there _are_ any health issues, I will bring all findings back to breeder. I will take it from there then. Honestly? I do not think I would bring Turbo back to him if there was an issue


And THIS is exactly what unscrupulous breeders and puppy mill outlets are banking on... that the purchaser will be so smitten with the puppy that they won't insist on a refund, and then if the puppy is sick, they STILL pay the medical bills and don't get anything out of the breeder. It's a real racket.

That said, it's certainly not Turbo's fault, and if you've made your decision, both you and he are CERTAINLY welcome here!!! Just, hopefully, if and when it's time to purchase another dog, you'll know to do really careful research. And although there's no excuse for breeders like Jeff, there ARE people who end up with pups from bad breeders and even puppy mills where the pup end up just fine, and everyone lives happily ever after. I'm sure we will all be hoping that's what happens for your little Turbo!


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Well, I'm back also. After finding out about Jeff and all. Don't be to despondent yet. If you are in love with your little pup, go ahead. My first little schnauzer was a present from my husband from a pet store--no papers with her and only cost $100. She was perfect and lived to a ripe old age with no problems what so ever. She was the picture perfect minature schnauzer. When she died, I went for a registered one with all the bells and whistles. Poor little Pearl was never healthy and died this past year at the age of 8 years. I loved them both and wouldn't have traded either for any other dog at the time. So enjoy you pup and don't worry. Yours will more than likely be fine.


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## Lunastar (Feb 9, 2009)

Irina, 

Consider this you now have a very expensive rescue. If you don't take Turbo he will probably end up being used for breeding more of Jeff's mill dogs. 

You really should pay attention to the health related issues in that thread. Be prepared. Veterinary care is not cheap and you may be in for a very expensive long haul. At least now you have some idea what to expect. 

The next time you will know what to look for in a breeder. I got my havs knowing literally nothing about health testing. I was lucky, although my girls have had some health issues it could have been much much worse. 

Dry your tears and educate yourself on the health issues.


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang (May 21, 2007)

TurboMom said:


> We are buying our Havanese from a reputable breeder (he's awesome, and i researched intensely), and yet when I tell some people about us _buying_ a puppy, I get berated. "You should rescue...you should adopt...why are you buying a puppy when there are so many orphans out there...".


Just to put some perspective on this, when we started our golden retriever rescue in 1998 I was ridiculed by family, friends and co-workers. "Since when do golden retrievers need rescuing?" "What are you rescuing them from?" and my personal favorite..."If you're not making money, then why are you doing it?"

So it wasn't that long ago that rescuing a dog was a silly, frivolous idea. Amazing how quickly public opinion can change. Then again, some of the people berating you might simply be parroting what they've heard over and over.

As a veteran rescuer I believe that we each have to make these choices based on what works for us, our lifestyle and situation. No one should be bullied into rescuing just because it's the (now) popular thing to do. This is (or should be) a lifelong commitment and not to be taken lightly. You need to be comfortable with your choices and NO ONE has the right to dictate for you what those choices should be.

If people start to lecture you about rescuing, tell them you've already done that (with your cats). Enough said.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Irina,

Turbo is a lucky little boy to have you as a caretaker. I understand how much you can fall in love with these sweethearts even before they spend one night in your home. It's happened to me with each of mine. When my breeder had second thoughts about keeping Bailey I was devastated. I felt as if I was losing my baby. Thankfully she reconsidered and I have what feels like the perfect fur family.

I spent quite a bit of time researching insurance plans and have decided to go with Pet plan. They only recently started selling policies in New York. If you check, their policy holders give them very high ratings.

Good luck with your baby. He is a cutie pie.


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## Lunastar (Feb 9, 2009)

TurboMom said:


> thank you guys! i definitely will NOT point anyone else in this breeder's direction. i am thinking to exchange emails with some of the other parents from the same litter, so that we can keep in touch on the siblings' growth/progress, but also, I think I would like for them to know about Jeff as well, if possible by pointing them in the direction of this forum. Thoughts about this?
> 
> RE: insurance...YES! That is my next question, and actually, a co-worker of mine just left an ad for Petplan on my desk. I am pretty sure I have seen threads on here regarding pet insurance, so I will plug into those.
> 
> Thank you!


I would say go with the insurance that is going to give you the most coverage, it sounds like you may very well need it.

I would personally email any one I knew with an interest in Jeff's dogs. Of course becareful that you don't say anything that can be considered libel. You may want to see if Jeff will let you take Turbo to your vet before you pay for him. Trust me on this it will be much easier on your kids if you don't bring Turbo home first if he has something life threatening, the down side to that is if you still decide to take him the insurance may not cover what he has as it will be pre-existing. I wish you much luck and I hope we get frequent updates on Turbo or any other dog you decide on.


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## Wildflower (Dec 6, 2009)

TurboMom said:


> "You should rescue...you should adopt...why are you buying a puppy when there are so many orphans out there...".


Oh boy... this is such a pet peeve of mine. I've been down this road before! And after trying to explain/defend myself the first couple of times, I finally just politely told anybody who would have the nerve to say something "this is my personal choice" and give them a 'look' that expresses more than words could ever say.

I also consider myself a rescuer of cats. We live in the country and have had many "drop-offs" over the years. We have had more pregnant and very tame cats just suddenly appear at our front door. I've found homes for countless kittens and cats (and dogs!) and have even paid for shots and neutering/spaying for those cats that stayed around. I'm not a cat person by any means, but I don't dislike cats. I've also discovered that local shelters have so many cats they often won't take any more!


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## TurboMom (Jan 12, 2010)

Lunastar said:


> Irina,
> 
> Consider this you now have a very expensive rescue. If you don't take Turbo he will probably end up being used for breeding more of Jeff's mill dogs.
> Good point, and one I feel strongly about.
> ...


Thank you!


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## Pipersmom (Jul 27, 2009)

Irina, I'm so sorry what should be such a joyous time for you and your family has been dampened by this. It sounds like you have made your decision (I would make the same choice!) and are well informed about the potential issues. 

So now get excited again, you and your family are about to be forever changed in the best way. It sounds like Turbo is a very lucky guy!


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## TurboMom (Jan 12, 2010)

Pipersmom said:


> Irina, I'm so sorry what should be such a joyous time for you and your family has been dampened by this. It sounds like you have made your decision (I would make the same choice!) and are well informed about the potential issues.
> 
> So now get excited again, you and your family are about to be forever changed in the best way. It sounds like Turbo is a very lucky guy!


Thanks!! We are SUPER excited!!! :whoo: T-minus 10 days!!! Saturday we will visit Turbo, and the week after, he will be home


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## Lunastar (Feb 9, 2009)

Irina,

I am so glad you are back to being excited. You are right there is nothing to say that won't end up with a wonderfully healthy pup. At least you are now prepared and you know we will help you in anyway we can here. I can't wait to see pictures of turbo once you have him home.


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## RikiDaisyDixie (Apr 15, 2008)

*Opinions...*

Perhaps you are right...

If you say this, most people change the subject. You aren't agreeing or disagreeing.

I had two rescue cats. I tried to rescue two dogs before we got our havanese...and both chased the cats terribly. The cats were our kids first, and we had a child with asthma. I needed dogs that would get along with the cats and a child.

So we got havanese. Now I work at HRI doing what I can. I also am fostering for a local dog rescue and have a foster dog. I could not have taken on this foster dog without the stuff I have learned from my own havanese. So who knows what is what! Who knew I'd be the co-chair of the quilt project and help raise lots of money for rescue. Who knew I'd be keeping a dog in a crate for six weeks and helping rehabilitate her from drastic surgery after being hit by a car.

I know what I know through the havanese world...would I be here now if I had kept one of the rescue dogs? Who knows.

Tiger Lilly gets spayed tomorrow. Hope it goes well, she has been through so much.


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## marb42 (Oct 19, 2008)

Irina, welcome to the forum. The pic of your son and Turbo is absolutely precious. I agree with everyone, and it's clear you and your family has fallen in love with this little guy. I completely understand you wanting to keep him despite learning about the breeder. I also bought a dog from someone I thought was a good breeder. I found out a year later that she ran a puppy mill. I did not thoroughly research things or find this forum until after, but I will know better next time. As far as people criticizing you for not getting a rescue, it's not their business or their position to judge you. And, you clearly have an excellent reason anyway, your husband's allergies. So if you really don't feel comfortable telling them to mind their own business, you can always fall back on the allergy excuse. My daughter and I are highly allergic to animals, and this is the first dog we've been able to have, so a rescue (unless it was positively a havanese) would not work for us, either. Good luck, and don't forget to post lots of pics when you bring Turbo home


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Your decision has been made so relax be excited about your new baby. Many of us did not find this Forum until after the purchase of our babies.

My Smarty soon to be 3 years old is an American Champion and the daily joy of my life. I bought her from a back yard breeder at 9 weeks. I knew better. I read the standard but did not do the heath investigation of the breed. If I had I would never have bought a Havanese. She is one of the best decisions in my life. Another great decision is our precious Galen, 1 year old mill rescue. She is the cutest little character you will every meet. At this point in their life both of my girls are healthy, happy and typical Havanese. 

Buying from a breeder that does the testing is a major advantage as to not having certain problems but it does not guarantee your puppy will not have issues. "Good" breeders produce dogs that fit the breed standard and if heath issues arise will take the dog back or pay the vet bills up to the cost of the dog. Most pet owners would never return the dog no matter what the problem.


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## imamurph (Apr 15, 2008)

Irina..DON'T GO! We're here for you rain or shine!!! :couch2::grouphug:


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## TurboMom (Jan 12, 2010)

Thank you all SO very much for your kind words and understanding! I am happy to hav (<---pun intended  ) a place to come to for advice and to be able to share my future stories of my new baby. I really wish I would have found this forum _before_, but maybe things happen for a reason? Whatever the case, I (and my husband and our boys) are SUPER excited about Turbo.

T-minus 9 days!!! :dance:


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