# My Hav growled and snapped at my son



## djones2 (Aug 27, 2007)

We all love our Hav very much. He is 7 1/2 months old and really smart. Lately he has growled and snapped at our kids. These are not small children that aggravate him. These are kids that play, love and help take care of him. 

1. He did it once to my 16 year-old daughter. We were in the vehicle and he found a candy wrapper. She tried to take it away from him and he snapped at her.

2. He has growled and snapped at my 12 year-old son a couple of times when he has gone to pick him up, especially if the Hav is on a nice soft surface.

3. Tonight my son gave him a bone. Then he was checking to make sure he couldn't choke on it somehow. When he touched Spyro, he growled and turned around and snapped at my son. Not a little tiny growl as a warning, he immediately snapped at him. 

We have always hand fed Spyro and put our hands in his bowl. My son hand feeds him treats for bathroom and for tricks. He gave him this bone. My son worries about the dog and plays with him more than any of us.

Please, please, tell me something else other than to not bother the dog with his food. I have never in my life had a dog that I could not take something out of their mouth if I wanted to.

I am so sad and disappointed in Spyro. I am just shocked. We all baby him and love him so much. He makes us laugh all the time.

He loves his pillows and soft surfaces. He brings his water bowl and drops it for us. He comes and gets us if we forget to cover his crate. He has even showed me when he wants water in his dry dog food by scooting his water dish to the food bowl and spilling some of it there.

I did not spank him for snapping at my son but I did get very angry with him verbally and put him outside.

Please, tell me what to do. I could hardly bear to part with my smart little boy but I can't have him trying to bite my kids. The instance tonight with the bone is one thing but he should not snap at my son for picking him up off a pillow.

He is the best little car rider in the world. He lays still and is a sweet pleasure. He is not a lap dog but wants to be near us.

I keep hoping that my angry voice and the immediate reaction he got from me will be enough to keep him from doing it again but I am so afraid it won't stop him.

I am sorry for rambling but I have a very heavy heart. 

He has not been neutered, yet. 

Thanks,
Donna
Spyro's Sad Mom


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## brandy (Jun 12, 2007)

Hi Donna. I hope things get better for you soon. This behavior is certainly not ok. Im sure with a little work to check his attitude he will come around. Definetly dont let him get away with it and check him everytime. I would Give him a firm stron NO and take away what ever he is growling over then practice giving it and taking it away. Find some way of your kids getting on his good side but also they must be firm with him and check him too. That is very important. Im sure you will get all kinds of helpful advice from others here and it will all work out. Hang in there
~Brandy


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

Hi Donna. I am no expert so I will let others give you advice. 

At 7 1/2 months he sounds like he is being a typical teenager testing his bounderies. Houston didn't snapp but growled at my son who is 14 a couple of times for no reason. I did read some where on this forum that someone advised a firm "NO" while placing him on his back when he does it. I had my son do this and his behavior stopped.

As I said, I am no expert but see what others advise. If it keeps up you may need help from a trainer.


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## woodlandmoon (Jan 15, 2008)

I don't have any advice, but I will be following this thread and thinking of you. I hope you are able to work through this quickly with your pup. It certainly sounds unusual for the breed. You'll be in my thoughts.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

It sounds like Spyro thinks he is the alpha, and not the kids. I am sure you will get some great advise from people here about training him to understand that the kids are in charge!! Not him!!


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## HayCarambaMama (Dec 8, 2007)

Laurief said:


> It sounds like Spyro thinks he is the alpha, and not the kids. I am sure you will get some great advise from people here about training him to understand that the kids are in charge!! Not him!!


ITA. I had a trainer tell me to roll dog into alpha IMMEDIATELY at that behaviour and have kids stand near him. He needs to get completely calm in that position before you release him.
I would suggest some obedience classes for him (with your kids training him).
Hugs to you from another Donna! If you tackle this early, you should be very successful!


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

I know many may think Cesar Millan's methods are too "strong" for these little guys. But, I've seen him "roll" and "pin down" a little chihuahua who was acting very much like you describe Spyro acting. He said it is necessary for the dog to know he is "low man on the totem pole" and everyone else is above him. I know you were the one who dealt w/his misbehavior but, it may have been better for your son to have done it, to send the message to Spyro that your son is "in charge", too.

Like Rita said above, have your son (or anyone else he acts this way with) immediately place him on his back and say "NO!" in a very stern voice. This should let Spyro know his behavior has "crossed the line" and will not be tolerated.

Good luck!


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## Lo01 (Jul 22, 2007)

djones2 said:


> ...We all baby him and love him so much....
> 
> He loves his pillows and soft surfaces. He brings his water bowl and drops it for us. He comes and gets us if we forget to cover his crate. He has even showed me when he wants water in his dry dog food by scooting his water dish to the food bowl and spilling some of it there.



Donna from the quote you mention above, it seems that Spyro is having an issue with what trainers call "dominance confusion" - with your actions above (somewhat catering to him), you may have created a little one that is totally confused about his place in the pack and uses aggression (bites), or aggressive displays (growling, teeth baring), to answer the question "Who's in charge around here anyway?". Although I'm not a big fan of Cesar Milan and his techniques -- they can severely damage any relationship based training you can have with a dog, I do believe in a "hierarchy" described in the well known program known as Nothing in Life is Free.

Here's a link with regard to resource guarding as well.

Although I am quite aware that a large majority of trainers still practice what's known as the "alpha roll" -- this may be quite dangerous not only to you but to Spyro's psyche. Milan, bases his "training" not on scientific evidence and review, but rather his anecdotal experiences. Here is one great article on the subject.

Here are additional articles on Cesar: here and here

Don't forget: "Undesirable behavior can be caused by many things, including undetected illness. No behavior modification program should begin without first taking the dog to a veterinarian for a complete physical examination."

Believe me, we dote over Hank , however, he is well aware of his role in the family.

Hope this helps,
*'Lo*


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

I think his testosterone is showing. At his age, he is definitely feeling his hormones and trying to establish his place as alpha. When he does this to your kids, they can't show fear. They need to be assertive with him. A very firm NO and a roll onto his back should give him the message.

There are plenty of books you can read to help you, and a training session is a good idea so you can deal with the problem.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

> I know many may think Cesar Millan's methods are too "strong" for these little guys. But, I've seen him "roll" and "pin down" a little chihuahua who was acting very much like you describe Spyro acting. He said it is necessary for the dog to know he is "low man on the totem pole" and everyone else is above him. I know you were the one who dealt w/his misbehavior but, it may have been better for your son to have done it, to send the message to Spyro that your son is "in charge", too.


I agree with above. Spyro needs to understand that you arnd the kids are the pack leaders and he is lowest on the totem poll. Has he ever snapped or growled at you or is it just at the kids? I think the roll and pin with the kids right next to you might be a good idea. Also might want to try having the kids feed him but making sure that he is in the sitting and calm position before putting the food down. Then pet him a bit when he's eating. When Bogart was a puppy and with Brando now, when I feed them I always touch them a bit. At first Brando growled at me but now I can take his food away from him (if I can get his mouth open lol ) without him growling. Definitely want to nip it (no pun intended) sooner rather than later


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## CapotesMom (Apr 3, 2007)

Everyone on here is giving good advice, Donna. Capote still does this to strangers and to the cat but he no longer attempts it with me. He is ever an alpha just like Spyro seems he is trying to be. 

The way I stopped it with me is like Brandy was talking about. I would give it and take it away. If he growled at me I would put the treat up all together so he couldn't have it. When he didn't growl or snap I'd give him praise and when he did I'd give him a stern no and take it away. 

He's not good at this with other people..only me. I think it's cause he knows I'm his alpha. My best friend was a trainer at petsmart and this is what she taught me to take care of it. Have your son and everyone else in the family try that for a while so they can establish their dominance in 'the pack' and show spyro his place in your house; beneath you and the kids. He needs to learn that it IS his treat, but that you or your son isn't going to take it, but it's unacceptable for him to growl or snap over it. 

I still test this every once and a while. Last night Capote had a treat that he was toying with and trying to hide under the blankets (that was adorable by the way) and I went to pick it up. You can see that he wants to take it, but he didn't growl or snap; letting me pick it up and move it around. I trained him on this about 6 months ago and he still remembers so it worked!


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Are there any aggressive behaviors towards YOU or just the kids?

You've gotten some great information and suggestions so far, I am somewhere in between the various schools of thought on training...I've read up on various methods and settled with bits of each.

I would put the dog on his back and pin him down and assert a NO. I would also have my kids right there and eventually asserting alpha. I have 7 kids and I probably spent more time training the KIDS than Gucci, She knows she has to listen to them. Although, she's gotten really very smart at manipulating ME..She doesn't like if the kids wake her up from a nap, like trying to pick her up when she's sleeping, so she'll literally whine and/or YELP and that used to result in the KIDS getting in trouble (while Gucci sat there gloating at her wit! lol) But, I do know that's her way of getting HER way, so I don't fall for it anymore. Anyone that says a dog aren't smart, needs to meet mine. lol

Although, she's never snapped or growled at anyone taking food. Everyone here can check her mouth or take a treat and she'll sulk or follow us, so I don't have any experience dealing with that one.

Since he's older...I'd probably consider getting a trainer to come to the house and work with the problem if the suggestions here don't work. But it is certainly something that I would want to get under control QUICKLY. I would worry that it would only get worse if you don't nip it in the bud now.

Kara


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

It sounds like he is feeling his oats and trying to establish a higher place in the pack. Are you planning to neuter him? If so, perhaps it's time for that. That alone isn't going to stop the behavior, you'll need to show him his place in the pack. I'm all-in with the rest of the crew. When he acts out like this you need to roll him onto his back (gently, but firmly) and pin him in that position until he relaxes and accepts your dominance. The children also need to learn this technique, so you should have them present when you do it. It's the same way it would be handled in his pack. Don't baby him too much since this can cause problems in some small dogs and practice the tips in the nothing in life is free http://www.dogo.org/Education/NILF.htm That will help him to see the rest of the family as higher in the pack order. When he knows his place in the pack he'll be happier and so will you!


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## djones2 (Aug 27, 2007)

Yes, we are planning to neuter him. I told my husband we need to take him this week.

This behavior is only toward the kids. He has never growled at me or my husband for any reason. I held him on his back a couple of times when he was a puppy and I guess he doesn't feel like challenging that again. My husband had to get a thorn out of his foot once and had to hold him down for that, so I guess he doesn't want to go through that again. Now with thinking about it a little more, the one thing he does to all of us that may mean he thinks he is boss is that *he does not come to us when we call unless he feels like it. Most of the time he doesn't feel like it. *
Last night after the episode with the bone my husband would give him the bone and take it away, then my son would do the same. Spyro actually started shaking. They weren't saying anything negative to him. They would just let him take it then take it out of his mouth. Spyro finally started shaking and backed away and would not take the bone any more.

Yes, we have thought his letting us know what he wants is so cute and smart that we have jumped to do what he wants. We thought we were helping him understand that if he communicates with us then we can see what he wants. He constantly brings his toy to us and taps us on the leg to throw it for him. With four people and one dog it is hard to find a time when someone is not ready to do exactly what the little guy wants. Maybe we should try ignoring him when he comes to us.

My son and I have been teaching him to sit and lay down. I would have thought my son getting him to do those things on command would have helped Spyro learn that he is not above my son. Spyro may think of it as fun, though and not a command.

I remember when he was little it was hard for me to pin him down so I have not had my son do this since he has gotten older. I am a little concerned my son would lose because he just can't be rough with the dog at all. I will help my son accomplish this and see if that helps.

I will read more of the "Nothing in Life is Free" but it seems that would not have the immediate affect that pinning him down would. We can't get him to stay or even come to us when we call. I may be wrong about my interpretation so I am going to read more of that right now.

Thanks for everything and if anyone else has suggestions on getting him to come when we call that would be great, too.

Donna


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## Lina (Apr 26, 2007)

Donna, it sounds like in your doting of Spyro you have let him get away with a lot more than you should have. I can understand that since these little guys are so cute. However, Spyro definitely seems like he thinks he's alpha around your house. I definitely think you need to do the alpha roll with him when he does things that are unacceptable. If your son isn't comfortable doing it himself, you should do it to Spyro with your son standing right next to you.

Nothing in Life is Free is an excellent program (I use that along with the alpha roll in the beginning when Kubrick was still trying to be alpha) and you should definitely instill it with Spyro. Never let him walk ahead of you when you walk out the door, you should always make him wait for you to walk in first, so you're leading. Your children should do the same.

Make him sit or down before giving him his food and hold him in that sit or down until the release word "OK" allows him to eat. Unless you call him over to play and/or give attention, don't give him attention when he asks for it. Ignore him. Of course, that means YOU and your children need to give him attention before he thinks that he needs it, so it's a little more work at first. This can be very hard. With Kubrick sometimes I will give him attention when he asks for it, but then again he knows his place in the pack, so even though it's hard, I would say that's what you need to do until Spyro learns his place. Make sure you make him sit before you give him attention.

As far as not coming when you call, well, teenage years are hard period. Kubrick will only come when he feels like it or when he thinks he will be getting a treat. He is getting a LOT better now that he's 9 months... it was like something went "click" and he went from being rebellious to listening probably 85% of the time. We're working on it. Have you tried the "come" game? Kubrick loves that game. My fiance and I will each be in a room and call him and when he comes he will get a treat. He will eventually be running back and forth between us without us calling, so usually then we add another person, like my sister, to call him and give him a treat. Basically this way he never knows who is going to call next. It's a great game and really helps with the "come" command.

Good luck, Donna, and please keep us posted!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Hi Donna, Spyro does sound like a character. And I think you will be able to resolve this with what you have planned. There is a lot of good advice here. And Spyro is still a young trainable pup. 

I think you can get the same effect of rolling him over with a firm NO and gentle but firm grab of his scruff at the side of his neck (Cesar's CHUH and imitation of mothers mouth) And as everyone here says everyone in your family needs to let Spyro know they are boss. 

Cash has never snapped-- but if he lying/falling asleep on our soft bed he will growl at us if we go to move him to his crate. We say NO and grab his scruff and immediately put him in his crate. With him we think it's more a grumble "i am so comfortable" but we won't take that chance so we treat it as if it were aggression. It has worked, he needs to be reminded still every now and then.

I would have Spyro neutered soon- it is the perfect time. be prepared for a boost of these behaviors right after-- I think they get one final surge of hormones or something --- but both my boys were crazier for about 2 wks after their procedure. 

Oh, and the coming thing--- I think many of our Havs only come when treats are involved. Not proud of that fact - but from what I understand Coming everytime on command is advanced obedience.

Good luck keep us posted. And Please Post some pictures


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## Amy R. (Jul 1, 2007)

People here are giving you great advice. I agree that he is confused re his place in the pack and is trying to assert dominance. I also think that he should be neutered soon, which would likely curtail some of this aggression. He sounds like a simply wonderful dog, otherwise, so do not giveup! Seek the advice of a trainer. Keep us all updated on his progress.


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## lolabellblue (Sep 25, 2007)

Both of my dogs were trained from day 1 using Ceaser Milan techniques. Although there may be no scientific evidence to backup his theories, they work and that's what matters to me. 

My husband is a physician and there are many times where although there is no scientific evidence of why a medication or treament is working, it's working. I don't necessarily believe all things require scientific evidence to be beneficial. 

I can't imagine what you must be going through with little children being snapped at. Once he is neutured and knows his place in the pack you will have a very different dog.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I think between the growling and shaking it is pretty obvious the little guy is confused and needs some more direction as what his roll in the pack is. I would definitely look into a training class to strengthen the bond between your son and the dog. You may also want to visit the library and check out some behavior books. I am a fan of Cesar myself but I find a lot of the things he does for dogs with behavior problems, I haven't had to do because I established the pack I want. I have done the roll- my less than 5lb maltese has quite the alpha drive naturally and sometimes she gets out of control. My husband went to take the girls out to potty the other night and Belle was ignoring him, when he went to push her to get up, she growled at him. I didn't have to say a thing, but he immediately grabbed her and rolled her and scolded her. While I think each person has to chose their own methods, I was proud that he didn't let her get away with it. She is the type of dog that naturally will rise up if there is no leader!


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## djones2 (Aug 27, 2007)

He has much more white on him now.
His face is still dark but his new growth is white and cream.


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## lolabellblue (Sep 25, 2007)

Absolutely beautiful Hav, gorgeous coloring!

He just needs some boundaries!


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## Lo01 (Jul 22, 2007)

lolabellblue said:


> Both of my dogs were trained from day 1 using Ceaser Milan techniques. Although there may be no scientific evidence to backup his theories, they work and that's what matters to me.
> 
> My husband is a physician and there are many times where although there is no scientific evidence of why a medication or treatment is working, it's working. I don't necessarily believe all things require scientific evidence to be beneficial.
> .



LolaBellBlue,
Here's a quote from one of the links I placed in my reply:

"IT WORKED ON MY DOG

To readers who will insist that these methods worked on your dog and are not creating additional behavior problems, then I can understand why it would be difficult to see the harm in them. However, in comparison to the limited number of dogs you will own in your lifetime, the professional trainers and behaviorists who speak out against these methods each see hundreds of dogs that develop significant behavior problems as a direct result of these approaches.

In addition, one must also define "work." What I frequently hear is something along these lines:

"It worked on my dog. Every time he barks at a dog on our walk, I just give him a correction with the leash and tell him "Tsssht" and he stops."

Note the words, "Every time he barks." This indicates that the dog is still repeating the behavior. The idea behind behavior modification is not that the dog simply stops the behavior momentarily, but that the behavior changes so that the dog's reaction in that environment is different, like looking at you instead of barking. Suppression of a behavior is not changing the behavior, itself. If the owner has to continually repeat the "correction" the behavior isn't changing.

I can also understand how difficult it would be for longtime dog owners and trainers who have used traditional methods for years, perhaps even decades, to contemplate the possibility that they somehow harmed or failed the dogs they loved. I once had to face that realization and it was devastating. But to close yourself to the possibility that you do not have to hurt or intimidate a dog in order to train obedience commands or change serious behavior problems does your dog, and yourself, a great disservice. "

Needless to say, sometimes something that does appear to "work" for no known reason has an unexpected consequence. I do not have a background in Animal Behavior, let alone Canine Psychology, however I feel I trust those individuals who base their training methods on some iota of fact. As a physician myself, we understand the role of evidence based medicine as the safest and most beneficial manner of taking care of our patients. I sincerely doubt your husband practices medicine based on his own opinion that "something worked." I do acknowledge that there are things that go beyond our knowledge of why things work - I've seen it with my own patients. That, I feel, can be part of the art of medicine -- and God. However, whether it be my patients or our beloved animals, I ascribe to original tenet of Roman physician Galen:
"Primum non nocere"

Regards,
*'Lo*


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## lolabellblue (Sep 25, 2007)

Hi Lo! I am sure we both have wonderful well behaved dogs. But dogs need boundaries just like children do! 

What a wonderful world we live in where DIFFERENT beliefs and actions can still come to a fabulous conclusion. I hope she can find something that works for her Hav just like you have and just like I have without having to give the dog away. I was simply sharing what worked for me. 

Sorry to have ruffled your feathers!


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## lolabellblue (Sep 25, 2007)

Oops, sorry for all the Hav's and have's...


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

lolabellblue said:


> What a wonderful world we live in where DIFFERENT beliefs and actions can still come to a fabulous conclusion. I hope she can find something that works for her Hav just like you have and just like I have without having to give the dog away. I was simply sharing what worked for me.


Well said. It is a wonderful world we live in. Plus this forum is a wonderful place to get different views and investigate what will work best for you.:biggrin1:


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## Lo01 (Jul 22, 2007)

No feathers ruffled

We all just want what's best for our Havs. And _*everyone's* _opinion has its merit.

I'm definitely sure both Spyro and Buzzy are under exceptional care as well.

Regards, 
*'Lo*


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## lolabellblue (Sep 25, 2007)

And Lo...to the last paragraph about my husband. I have no reason to lie about what my husband does and yes he practices western medicine but western medicine is not all there is on the grand earth, he knows it and so should you. 

So scientific evidence means only scientific evidence in western terms, and that is what he practices. I am just wise enough to know (no medical degree here) that westerners don't know everything...no matter what their collegiate level or degree on their wall. 

I was not attacking you, I just think scientific evidence is good for some things, not all things....again only my opinion.


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## lolabellblue (Sep 25, 2007)

PS Lo.

I really watch Ceaser because he is so cute and he always acts like the dogs making these hilarious faces. I can't help but giggle. 

We all need that no matter what medicine we practice!

...Keeping it light...love those Hav's always a smiling, can't help but to smile too!


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## lolabellblue (Sep 25, 2007)

Oops again, must be time for dinner. The name is Cesar, not Ceaser as in salad..lol.


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## CapotesMom (Apr 3, 2007)

He started shaking?? lol.. Oh Donna.. The poor guy. He was probably confused.

I remember I was using treats. When I took the bone away and he didn't react I'd give him a treat and praise him. It got to the point when we were training that I had to stop because he'd bring me the bone and wait for me to take it, then wag his tail expecting a treat...lol


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

I have had the same problem with puppies. You can be firm and grab them by their jowls and gently shake, saying no. Also there is an excellent book called "resource guarding." Essentially, you design a program where you substitute something of higher value for the object being guarded. You work on it until the dog is totally reliable and then have each member of the family do the same. In the meantime, I taught my kids to call me when the problem puppy had something it should not have and I dealt with it. He's not recognizing his place in the pack and can be trained - but start immediately.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Donna what you need to do is read from a real professional not Cesar . Try looking up Dr. Ian Dunbar ( the world's formost authority on dogs) It sounds like your dog is at an adolescent stage and needs reinforcement of bite inhibition techniques.Physical alpha rolls and such will only ruin your dogs temperment. These methods are old school. If you research the top dog people today they will all disagree with Cesar's methods. Dogs do not think of us as dogs. This is not a case of dominance. Read about Ian Dunbar methods and you will learn of a much better way. One of the many anti Alha Roll articles is written by Nicole Wilde (google it) . But go to Dog Star.com and you will find articles about biting there . This is Dr. Ian Dunbar's site. Read Before you get a puppy ---its free advice and critical.


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## DAJsMom (Oct 27, 2006)

When we did obedience training with Dusty, one of the exercises was to give her a treat that she really liked (like a bone) and then offer her another, higher value (even yummier) treat and reward her with that treat when she dropped the first one and we picked it up. This exercise was to teach the dog to be willing to give up a treat. Maybe this would help you with Spyro.


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## JanB (Oct 26, 2007)

Donna, sorry, but I haven't had a problem with growling from our girl, so I'm not sure I can be of much help, but in our puppy class we were told to place the dog on their back and keep them there until they no longer struggle. We were to practice this every day. Well, Tessa never struggled but some in the class had dogs who struggled. They persevered, but in a gentle way, until their dogs were calm. In no way was this severe or putting the dogs in stress. This class is very positive and set up so the puppies succeed; there are no severe corrections. But a dog does need to know their place.

Maybe practicing an exercise as this would help, and not just doing an alpha roll when he's misbehaving. Another exercise she gave us was putting the dog on their side with their head flat on the ground; she said this was a vulnerable position for a dog and allowing us to place them there was acknowledging our alpha status.

Good luck!

BTW, we are a medical family and many times medicine is as much art as science


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

> Physical alpha rolls and such will only ruin your dogs temperment.


I have to say I disagree on that. I've used this both on Brando and Bogart and they have no temperment problems whatsoever. It worked very well. It's not like I used it exsessively. There are times where I felt like it was needed and it worked. I've never had to do it to Bogart since he was about 6 months old. Brando I've done it to once and never had to again. I know many others who use this technique with much success. There dogs have no temperment problems. Actually the puppy classes where I took Bogart are the ones who taught it to me.

The problem with all the experts is that for every expert who tells you one thing there's another who will tell you the opposite.


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## Jane (Jun 2, 2007)

We did a "modified" alpha roll with Lincoln and would carry him belly up in our arms and walk around the house with him like that until he calmed down. He was a BIG biter/nipper when he was a small puppy and even the squirt bottle didn't work (he just thought we wanted to play, which meant more nipping!)


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Gryff growls at my son too. He has done it ever since we got him. He really only does it when he is lying down or sleeping and Alec bothers him. So far, nothing has gotten him to stop. Alec can be rough with him at times and I think he is telling Alec not to pick him up and just leave me alone for a while. When Gryff isn't sleepy, the two of them play together like mad. If you find something that works, please let me know!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Jane said:


> We did a "modified" alpha roll with Lincoln and would carry him belly up in our arms and walk around the house with him like that until he calmed down. He was a BIG biter/nipper when he was a small puppy and even the squirt bottle didn't work (he just thought we wanted to play, which meant more nipping!)


Jane, interesting- this is what I do with Jasper when he goes red zone with the mail man. It is the only thing that cuts through his mania-- Now I don't know if it is translating to when we are not there.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Just like the differing views on raising children, so there are many, many opinions on how to also train our dogs. Oreo also has a 'take-over" type personality. And I have only had Oreo growl at my daughter ONCE - and that was the last time. My children ALWAYS come first and Oreo learned that the very day he did decided he would growl at my then 3 yr old daughter. I barely remember, but Oreo was eating one of those gross Greenies, and Isabella just went over to pet him on his side, as he was lying down. He let out a big growl, and I simply sprung up from the chair I was on ( he was lying beside my chair) and pinned him so fast. He was shocked and afterwards did not even want to touch his greenie. I made sure Isabella was right beside me so he could see her and that his growl was UNACCEPTABLE. He never did that again. He very patient, and my daughter, knows not to wrap her arms around his neck but will pet him and be gentle with him and he is very tolerant and does not show signs of stress when she approaches. So, when it comes to my kids, I will put my foot down if I have too - including the furry one.

I have tried all kinds of treat traininng, and use of clickers but I find them not as effective in getting him to listen to me immediately because I said so. Rather, I found he must know that I have to have some treat in order for him to listen. So, you could call me OLD SCHOOL, but it works, and his barking has improved tremendously since going back to old school.

The bottom line is use what works for your dog and stay consistent. Never tolerate any misbehaviour, even if it looks cute because we would not be tolerating it if our dog was an 80 lb Rottie. Our Havanese, don't realize they are small, they are just dogs, behaving like dogs. And we have to make sure we guide them and set boundaries for them to fit in our family settings. Sorry, this was indeed very long..


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I think it depends on the dog- I have never rolled Dora, as she is very soft naturally and would probably pee on me if I did! However, I have no problem rolling Belle. She needs to be put in check on occasion. Usually it is honestly when she hasn't been exercised enough (it has rained for about a week here!) and she isn't getting what she wanted. But I think each dog is different and a lot of it is figuring out what mechanisms work for your individual dog. My girls are very different and a lot of different training- obedience, agility, and manners are different for each of them!

Amanda


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

I agree with that Amanda, it really is very unique to the dog. If Oreo was not so bold, I would not have had to do that. I have not had to do the modified roll very often, and I try to avoid as much as possible. With my two children for instance, I have had to use different methods to get them to understand. My daughter is the more stubborn of the two, and I have to go from using time outs, to distraction etc. And I am confident that its the same as it is in dogs. There is no cut an dry approach for all dogs that is for sure. If there was, Iam sure alot of the things I am working on with Oreo would have been resolved.


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## Roe (Jan 5, 2008)

Donna I am sorry that you are going through this with Spyro. IT isn't fun and I find it disappointing .
I, too am going through this with pebbles right now. I am hoping it is only because she has just been spayed and is hurting and scared. 
But my husband tried that position with her yesterday. She was growling and snapping at me and he tried to help and she snapped at him. HE took her and put her on her side and back like Cesar does and she really flipped out. She scared me to death with her growling and shaking her head side to side. 
I know I probably shouldn't, but I feel bad when she tries to bite me because I love her so much and am so good to her yet she does that.
I hope we can both stop this behavior soon. She also does this when she has something that she does not want to give up.

Roe


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

Helen, I agree with everything you said. I think with havanese being so small and adorable when we get them, we sometimes forget that they are dogs and can be agressive. I have a lab that would love to be in charge if there wasn't a alpha around. But she is the sweetest dog ever as she knows who is in charge, and knows she doesn't have to control things.

I think it is very important to start trainning and teaching manners as soon as they come live in our home. 

A agressive dog is usually a confused dog, not knowing it's place in the pack. I would go to the library and find books on pack behavior to learn better how a dogs relate to each other. I have gotten alot of help in understanding pack behavior by watching Cesar Millan. 

My third havanese came home full of attitude. He never showed agression but I knew he needed extra guidence to learn he was not the boss and now is happy just being a pack member. He is a little cuddle bug.

Good luck and have every member of your family follow the same rules with the dog. That way they understand they are under all humans, not just you.


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I agree with Paige.Cesar's techniques do work. I believe in them and wish I had known about them years earlier. Showing your dog who is boss in YOUR house and expecting to NOT get bitten is just common sense.After a time or two of your children being firm and consistant,your pup will get the message.Hang in there--and be consistant.


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Here's my question: if Gryff growls at my son who reprimands the dog? Is it me or my son?


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

I am the disciplinarian in my household because I have to be the leader here. Right now, he is not showing any respect for your son, so you need to be the one to set the standard. Also, from now on, get your son to put Gryff in a sit/stay, put down his food bowl, and release him with an "okay" when you son decides. It could be a 15 second wait, 30, 1 minute. Gryff has to see that you son also is a source to fullfill his needs and he has to respect him. That is what I did, and still do, my daugher will feed Oreo with my help, and my 11.5 yr old son feeds Oreo his meals too. They put him in a sit or down and then he has to stay until he is released. I am sure others have great suggestions too that you could try to help you. But, in any case, really see if you can find a behaviourist, to help you with whatever rules must be established in your home, as well as the best way to fulfill Gryff's needs.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

ivyagogo said:


> Here's my question: if Gryff growls at my son who reprimands the dog? Is it me or my son?


I think it depends on how old your son is. If he is too young to understand how to reprimand Gryff, then you shoud with him there. If he is old enough to handle the reprimand properly with your guidance then he should. So I guess you have to use your best judgement on that as know your son best.


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

My son is 7. We did have a behaviorist come over months ago and she said that Alec should do the feeding and walking. Well, it's hard to get him to do his homework let alone take care of the dog. He does feed him sometimes and Gryff will always sit and stay for him. It's just the growling thing when Alec wants to play and Gryff doesn't. Poor kid, it really hurts his feelings.


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## HayCarambaMama (Dec 8, 2007)

Hmmm... I have young kids too. They know some discipline actions for the dogs, but I am ultimately in charge (for example they know what to do if the dog mouths them in play but I would never let them do an alpha roll on the dog). I think of it this way: I let the doggies know that they are NOT allowed to be naughty to my children and I will defend them (of course, the kids get in trouble if they are naughty to the doggies!). 
Poor Alec. My heart breaks for him. When Bonnie doesn't want to deal with my 4 year old's pestering, she just runs away from her. LOL. It makes my little girl cry (but it is kind of funny too!), but I think I would get really angry at the dog if they ever growled at my kids. Not cool.


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang (May 21, 2007)

I have to chime in here. If you're going to let your children attempt to roll the dog as a correction, then you need to be prepared for your kids to get bitten and you need to recognize that, if they do, it's YOUR fault and NOT the dog's.

Alpha rolling a dog - ANY dog - is not something to be done lightly, or by someone who is tentative and/or inexperienced in handling the dog - like children.

Just wanted to be sure you keep that in mind if you go with the alpha roll method. I would hate to hear that a dog was given up because it bit a child who was trying to alpha roll it.

Wanda


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## Me&2Girls (May 11, 2007)

Oh boy do I hear you with the child's hurt feelings. It's so hard to convince them that this is dog behavior and not personal. The dog will do what it can to rise up in the pack and children are perfect guinea pigs for their practice.

I agree training is individual to each dog - I've raised eight puppies and each is so different. What ever method you choose, just do it with lots of love and be consistent. And quick to correct or praise. Jumping right up to correct like you did was perfect.

I did have one dog I had to do the alpha roll on. Many, many times. He'd shriek, roll his head and thrash his body. Finally he settled down and went on to be the best dog I ever had. He was big, so it was scary, but well worth the extra work. I also did a lot of obedience with him when he was young and I think that helped. We went to a club on Friday nights - he did obedience while my other Heinz 57 did the agility. What a fun time.


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

It's never too early to teach a child how to train a dog. When I got my Lab, my youngest was 2 1/2. I taught her how to get her to sit, stay, wait for a treat. Have your children feed you dogs. Have them tell the dog to sit or down and make them wait for 15/30 seconds then have the child say okay. A adult always needs to be present. 


Don't let the dog walk out of the door before any family member. Don't let the dog on the furniture or in the beds until the behavior is gone. 

When you are letting the dog back in, make the dog wait until one of your children tell the dog okay. 

These things will make the dog see your child as higher in the pack then it is.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

I honestly would not let the children ever do the alpha roll because the way he is described, they are sure to get bitten and may make things worse.

My children, are never left alone with Oreo, as I never ever want to have the kids provoke him in any way, intentional or unintentional. They cannot hug him or mistreat him in anyway. If I see that my daughter is in Oreo's face a little too much, then I always intervene. As a pack leader, it is our responsibility to even prevent any potential conflict. Dogs just don't bite because they feel like it, they are feeling provoked in some way. Mind you, some dogs are crankier than others, so use your judgement.

Paige's suggestions work. Oreo is not allowed on my furniture or anyones bed here. We actually have taken him off a feeding schedule, as he was getting all demanding around feeding times. Now he rely's on us to feed him when we choose. We still do the sit/stay or down/stay for up to 5 mins and then he eats.

Also like Paige suggested, Oreo does not walk through any door, inside or outside before us. I have also resorted to tethering him to me for a minimum of 2 hrs per day. Umbilical training as it is called, and I break it up into chunks through out the day, and his main objective or "job" is to follow me, never leading me. If he gets ahead, I turn and walk through him. Havanese are so intelligent, that it only took Oreo one sessioni to get this. And we have now moved it outside. My arms are free and he is constantly watching me. I zigzag all over the place, we run, we have fun and I find him all the more peaceful.

I found, with Oreo he got all nippy and overly excited with treat training, so I have since stopped and now he sits on a dime when asked. His reward is a nice chest massage with loving words in calm tones. He has mellowed out so much and has become all the more respectful. He did not have the biting issue, but he definately has had respect issues and wanting to step ahead and be Alpha. I had to find what worked for me and so far this is.

It is very easy to look at what currently is, and then get discouraged. But the reason this doesn't work, or doesn't help is because our dogs perceive it. So we have to challenge ourselves and visualize the outcome we want, which is our dogs being the best they can be and more. This way, they relax more because we are more calm while we incorporate what we need to do to help them. Hugs, use your judgement and be persistent and consistent.


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## Roe (Jan 5, 2008)

Well thanks to Spyro I am learning a lot here also.

Pebbles is growling and snapping a lot at this time . I know it is because she was just spayed and constantly licking her stitches right through the onesie. When I try to stop her she growls at me a lot . I have resorted now to also using a cone to stop her from licking the onesie. Last night she got very mean and growled and snapped when I was putting it on her. I get scared as I have always been afraid of dogs biting. We tried putting her on her back immediately but she cried because I think it hurt her right now. 

I sure hope this is temporary. Do any of you know if this is norma behavior at this time?

Roe


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

My boys were sore when they had their surgery, but they never snapped at me. 

Pebbles is feeling your fear and is reacting to it. It there another adult in the house that could take care of putting the cone/onesie on her that isn't scared. 

I wouldn't put her on her back right after surgery, I would think that would cause pain. You could always put her in her crate for a time out, while she is healing. 

You need to get over your fear, if you want her to see you as a alpha.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Roe, I assume that you've been babying her and being careful to not stress the areas that are tender on her. If she is reacting that strongly, I think you need to get her back to the vet to make sure that nothing is wrong. If there is nothing wrong, then you need to be firm with her in telling her "no" when she acts aggressive toward you and not be afraid. If you aren't sure of yourself, I think you need to get a behaviorist in to help YOU out right away before things escalate.

Make sure everything is healing correctly first though.

And please don't put her on her back right now. She needs to heal.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Roe said:


> Well thanks to Spyro I am learning a lot here also.
> 
> Pebbles is growling and snapping a lot at this time . I know it is because she was just spayed and constantly licking her stitches right through the onesie. When I try to stop her she growls at me a lot . I have resorted now to also using a cone to stop her from licking the onesie. Last night she got very mean and growled and snapped when I was putting it on her. I get scared as I have always been afraid of dogs biting. We tried putting her on her back immediately but she cried because I think it hurt her right now.
> 
> ...


I just got Brando spayed last week. He did not growl or bite or get mad at me whatsoever even when inspecting his stitches or putting the cone on and off. I never had that problem with Bogart either when he was fixed. So honestly I don't think it's normal. Maybe something isn't healing correctly.


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

I would not let a child under the age of 15-16 years old do the alpha roll. They could give a firm NO, and ignore the dog. 

I think it is very important that the dog knows that you will not tolerate it biting/growling at your children, and that your children understand that you will not tolerate them being mean or picking on the dog. All involved need to see you as the one in charge.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

I would get Pebbles examined, she may be really sore. Not that it makes an excuse for the snapping. Also I do agree she is picking up on your fear and asserting herself on you. So if everything is okay, you really should look into hiring a behaviourist to help you know exactly how to be around Pebbles, so that both you and her can develop confidence in your leadership.


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## HayCarambaMama (Dec 8, 2007)

Paige said:


> I would not let a child under the age of 15-16 years old do the alpha roll. They could give a firm NO, and ignore the dog.
> 
> I think it is very important that the dog knows that you will not tolerate it biting/growling at your children, and that your children understand that you will not tolerate them being mean or picking on the dog. All involved need to see you as the one in charge.


Gosh, that's exactly what I was _trying_ to say! LOL. You are more eloquent that I am! Tee-hee.


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

whitBmom said:


> I would get Pebbles examined, she may be really sore. Not that it makes an excuse for the snapping. Also I do agree she is picking up on your fear and asserting herself on you. So if everything is okay, you really should look into hiring a behaviourist to help you know exactly how to be around Pebbles, so that both you and her can develop confidence in your leadership.


Good thought. I didn't think of that but a sick dog is an unhappy dog. Talk to your vet and make sure that their is no physical reason for the change in behavior.


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## Roe (Jan 5, 2008)

Thanks for the advice everyone. I know that pebbles seems very frightened and jumpy. She jumps on my lap now all the time and she was never really a lap dog. She would always be at my side but not on me. 

I don't think she is in pain because she is on pain meds and she is jumping on and off the furniture and bed when I am not looking. She is probably overdoing things and it is hard to stop her. I knew I would have this problem. 

She growls most because it does seem like it hurts her when I take her face away from her stitches and touch her belly there. It hurts her when I snap and unsnap the onesie also. I never thought of taking her back to the vet though so maybe I will call him tomorrow. Now I am worried. She did have the hernia surgery also and two teeth pulled.

Roe


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## Roe (Jan 5, 2008)

I forgot, Pebbles has always had an itching problem that we can't seem to get to the bottom of. I can tell she is also suffering in that regard. she is scratching and she does seem to get a pain or a bite and then she runs scared to my lap. I am so confused..

Roe


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

OH Roe. Call your vet. I don't have a girl but I know with Houston he was not supposed to jump for a few weeks after surgery. Maybe she is doing too much and having a problem with the stitches. You may need to xpen her even if you don't want too.

Some other people on this forum can answer about the itches. I know Lynn and a few others have had horrible problems with their babies allergies. 

Good luck.


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## djones2 (Aug 27, 2007)

*Update*

We have ignored Spyro for a day and a half as instructed in "Social Isolation". We will put him on his back and try that route the next time he does show aggression, if this doesn't work. We are trying to relieve him of his responsibility as "pack leader" by not letting him initiate any interaction with us. We are not jumping to his whims. Happily, tomorrow we can begin to play with him for short periods of time when we initiate it. I certainly hopes this does help with his feeling like the "pack leader" and his aggression. It is really hard to ignore him when he comes to us and wants to play. It is even harder to not talk to him or pick him up and nuzzle his soft fur. It is especially hard when he runs to me as I come in the door from work. It almost feels like we are being mean to him.

The first day he would come to us and cry the most pitiful whine, at times. He has stopped doing that now. Now he does go from one to the other of us and try to get our attention for a few minutes, then he stops.

We have an appointment for his neuter on Feb 13.

I will let you know how he does when we start phase II of his Social Isolation.

One thing that is funny. Our Spyro has been catered to so much that at 7 1/2 months old he is not even aware he can jump off the sofa. When he is on the sofa and we get up, he whines and one of us goes back to get him and puts him on the floor. Now that is service!!

I really want to thank everyone for all the advice and words of encouragement when I was so disheartened at his behavior. You really don't know how much it helped my family. We read all the messages and my son hung on every word of them all.

Thanks,
Donna


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## djones2 (Aug 27, 2007)

*Roe*

Do let us know what the vet says or if you notice an improvement as she begins to feel better or heal.

My son felt the same hurt when Spyro snapped at him.. He is the one that wanted a dog and he has always felt like Spyro is his. We got Spyro near my son's birthday after months of pleading on his part.

My son is constantly aware of where Spyro is and what he is doing. We laugh and notice every little thing Spyro does. We brag to each other about how smart he is and we are contantly charmed by his cuteness. When he snapped at my son it was such a letdown. I do understand how you feel.

I hope both dogs do learn their place.

Donna


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## HayCarambaMama (Dec 8, 2007)

Donna! Wow! I'm so impressed! Sounds like great progress! You're not being mean -- Spyro will feel much better when he knows he no longer needs to take on that big burden of pack leader. You can do it!
Any chance your son can do obedience training with him? Like at Petsmart? That might really help their bond too!


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## amandamarrone (Jan 17, 2008)

My darling Griffin used to growl at my son in the past when he tried to pick him up, (at around six months) but my son had never been able to command Griffin with any authority and it was obvious Griffin was feeling superior. I had my son roll Griffin on his back a couple of time when he'd growl--and Griffin now has a better understanding of his place in the family and hasn't growled since.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

You are not being mean because an Alpha will really ignore pack members that are subordinate to him/her. Spyro will get the idea, but don't give in to emotion. When Oreo starts trying to take over, because he is the type to try to step up always, I have to go right back to the silent treatment. When we do this we can really tell, he was trying to be all in charge because he would persist and persist in trying to get us to give him attention when he wanted it. The first time I did it, I felt heartless, but I have learned, that in Oreo's case he needs his reminders every now and then. Otherwise he turns into a barker that has to protect all. Not a benevolent leader for sure, but a tyrannt - if you know what I mean.


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## Roe (Jan 5, 2008)

Well the more I read the more I realize how wrong I do so many things and it is all out of love.

I totally spoil, pamper and baby Pebbles. She dictates to me everything we do.

I have been showing her fear, anxiety,frustration, impatience and anger. She has taken advantage of it.

She seems better today yet we just had an episode with her. She was sitting in the kitchen with the family . I went to change her onesie and sure enough the growling and snipping snapping started. This time she nipped me three times but didn't actually bite. It didn't hurt just made me angry. It made us all upset. I tried not to be afraid. She was never this bad before the surgery. Her incision looks fine, no swelling, no pulled stitches it looks like it is healing wonderfully. She doesn't seem in pain today at all. Unfortunately she continues to take leaping jumps onto the furniture quicker then I can stop her.

As soon as she recovers the real training will start. I am going to be the pack leader if it kills me and it just might lol

Roe


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

Roe, the onsie might be adding to her pain if she's attempting to nip you. If you are using the collar now, you might want to take off the onsie~maybe it's rubbing? It's good to hear that the incision looks good and she's healing well.


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

Gryff will sit and stay for Alec...and he does it consistantly. Last night we tried it even in the middle of a raucous play session and he still obeyed (that's a tough word to spell) Alec. It's just that he doesn't want Alec messing with him or trying to pick him up when he's resting. I know that he shouldn't growl..period..but I wish Alec would just respect Gryff's wishes as well. Let sleeping dogs lie. When Gryff does growl, Alec is firm with him telling him "NO Growling", but it's not very threatening when the command sounds like it's coming from a chipmunk. We're working on it...


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