# Professional Training Recommendations & Research



## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

Dana and I are considering whether or not to enroll Gibbs in training classes. The purpose of this thread is not to weigh the pros and cons, but to gain an understanding of the differing philosophies and methods, and to learn about the different dog training credentials. I am only at the very beginning of research and have seen the following credentials:

CPDT-KA
CDBC

I have the following questions:

1. Aside from being issued from different organizations, are there any significant differences between the two?

2. Are there any others, and what are those differences?

3. How do I verify that the various trainers were actually certified by the respective organizations?

4. I live 5 miles North of Pittsburgh, PA. Does anyone know of any reputable trainers? or of a resource which lists "Recommended or Approved" trainers by locations/Zip Code? - Feel free to PM if you don't want to make public recommendations.

5. Any useful information you want to provide?


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

I wont be much help because I know nothing about these organizations. Am sure people who do will chime in. For my puppy, I went to my local dog training club. Our club is based on positive methods. The reason I went there is because although I dont have plans to train my dog for competition, in my area the dog training club is where the "serious" people go, so I felt like we'd be taking from people who were at least into it. It's also organized with regular classes etc. I didnt want or need a private trainer in my situation.

I started with puppy k because I felt like I needed help getting my pup the right start and I wanted him to be socialized. My puppy is seven and a half months and I'm in my third class - I did puppy K, crate games and now we're in a Canine Good Citizen prep class. It's very good for practical things with your dog like learning to wait at doorways etc. My puppy really enjoys going and I'm taking my older dog too.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Credentials are fine as far as they go... they show you that at least the person was serious about learning about dog behavior and training. But I, personally, wouldn't choose a trainer based on credentials. Your question made me wonder about credentials at the MANY dog training facilities in this area. I was actually surprised at what I found. Only three of the facilities listed credentials. The one I train at regularly (IAABC, APDT, CPDT, ABC & CNWI) and another, where I go for private agility lessons from time to time. (CPDT, CNWI, plus the seminars and workshops that each instructor has attended is listed) NONE of the other positive-based centers in the area list credentials for their instructors. The third that DOES list credentials is a place that I KNOW uses shock and prong collars in some circumstances. (They list IACP and NAPWD) I would never take my dog there to train, and when I found out that they used shock collars, I asked them to remove me from their mailing list for special events and run-thoughs. I won't support a business that abuses dogs.

Another thing I noticed on my little search is that MOST of the training centers sort of "top out" their training programs with CGC, while MasterPeace, Surefire and one other (Silver City) offer more advanced classes leading toward competition in obedience, rally, agility and nosework. This might not be important to many people, but I thought I'd mention it.

I would still want to go and watch a teacher teaching a class or two, see their style, how they work with the dogs and how they work with the people. In big centers with a number of different instructors, I'd want to make sure I was observing the person who would be working with ME and my dog. If you're still not sure, try a private lesson, and see how your personalities and style mesh. And most important... if at ANY time you are not comfortable with what someone is doing to or with your dog, vote with your feet. You don't have to even stay until the end of the lesson. I haven't walked out on a dog trainer, but I HAVE walked out of the ring on a horse trainer, whose approach was just not right for my sensitive horse. I said "Thank you for your time, but this isn't for me," packed up my mare and headed home.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yeah Karen, facilities are not given the certificates. only the individuals. In general there is a vast difference in the certificates of many . This explains it better http://www.apdt.com/join/certification/ No doubt 
any training with a reputable trainer is a no brainer. APDT has a vast aray of levels in their membership. including shock trainers. 
here are the only two that require continuing education courses yearly one of which is our IAABC . Examples of certifications are the CPDT-KA (Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers) and the CDBC (International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants).


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> yeah Karen, facilities are not given the certificates. only the individuals. In general there is a vast difference in the certificates of many . This explains it better http://www.apdt.com/join/certification/ No doubt
> any training with a reputable trainer is a no brainer. APDT has a vast aray of levels in their membership. including shock trainers.


I wasn't looking for certification of the facilities... I was looking at certifications of the trainers. And yes, I knew that APDT ran the gamut, for fear of hurting anybody's tender feelings and losing a member. 

One "extra" credential that the trainer I work with most has, is probably not too common among dog trainers, but I think it helps with dogs, and DEFINITELY helps with people... She's an M.Ed. (Masters in Education human-type ) and spent many years as a Special Education teacher before deciding to train dogs full time.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yeah that certainly doesn hurt. But of the fifty or more certificate courses there's a huge difference in their education and experience . Like the difference between a vet and a vet tech. A lot of courses are useless.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

from APDT

There is no required certification or licensing to become a professional dog trainer or behavior counselor. Certification, while not mandatory, does however imply that a trainer takes his or her profession seriously and is dedicated to continuing their professional growth and education for the benefit of their human and canine clients. Be aware that not all certifications are the same. Some trainers are "certified" by the school that they took their educational program through whereas others are certified through independent certifying bodies that are not affiliated with any particular school or program. So a "certified trainer" could be someone who simply took a two-week course on training or someone who has studied dog training and behavior extensively for years and was independently tested on their knowledge and skills. The term "certification" is widely used incorrectly in the field and most certifications are in fact certificate programs. This does not mean that certificate programs are bad and many of them are quite good, but the dog owner should be aware that the term means many different things in this field


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## Sonic and Aries (Feb 15, 2012)

I don't know much about the credentials, but I do recommend getting out there and meeting different trainers, watching some classes and picking the person you feel most comfortable around. Definitely try to find a positive based trainer. We observed 3 or 4 different trainers and had several conversations with the one we ended up choosing before enrolling in classes. I absolutely love her and would recommend her (we are 10-15 miles south of Pittsburgh), but she's leaving in 2 weeks to open her own training center in another state.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> yeah that certainly doesn hurt. But of the fifty or more certificate courses there's a huge difference in their education and experience . Like the difference between a vet and a vet tech. A lot of courses are useless.


I know. That's very clear. That's one of the reasons that I would only consider certification (or certificate programs or seminar attendance without without CE credits) as a single data point. I also know a couple of people who are "certified" up the ying yang, and have been to every training and behavior seminar available for YEARS now. But then I've also seen them work with dogs. They are harmless, but also TOTALLY ineffective. Book learning is all well and good, but if you don't have a FEEL for working with animals, you still won't be a good animal trainer, no matter what species your dealing with. And if you don't have EXPERIENCE working with MANY types of dogs, you are, IMO, very limited as a trainer.

In the horse world, ZERO of the top trainers in the country are the product of accredited, degree "training programs" at various colleges. (that parents spend a lot of money for!) You learn to be a top trainer by learning from other top trainers, and riding, riding and riding some more. If you can still count the number of horses you've trained, you probably haven't trained enough to be good yet.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

for sure Karen , Im' just saying for someone who doesn't know trainers, theres' a better chance some course certificates are better than others. The good courses have hands on training . Many don't


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

I have started email interviews and like the following trainer enough to visit with her. How do you feel about her initial responses?

What follow up questions should I ask?

The biggest negative is lack of group training. Can I supplement her in-house training with group training from a different trainer? Will that confuse Gibbs? Should I find one trainer that does both group and private training?

Her responses to my intial questions are in red.

*1.	What is your training philosophy as it relates to positive and negative reinforcement? - Positive only? Combination? *
•	There is no trainer who is purely positive. Every trainer uses some form of punishment. Every trainer will remove the what the dog wants when the dog is acting up. That is punishment.

•	Positive reinforcement means you add something good to make a behavior more likely to occur.
•	Negative reinforcement is you take away something icky to make a behavior more likely to occur.
•	Positive punishment is that you add something icky to make a behavior less likely to occur.
•	Negative punishment is you take something away to make a behavior less likely to occur.

I use primarily positive reinforcement: treats, toys, praise, or whatever it is the dog wants or finds reinforcing. I try to be motivational with the dog.
I do use punishment, but I chose to use negative punishment: if a dog jumps, I take away the attention the dog wants until the dog stops jumping, then I offer primary reinforcement. If a puppy is getting too over-aroused or his/her mouthing is getting out of hand, I might give the pup a time out, which is negative punishment. I might also step over a baby gate until the pup calms down.
I rarely use negative reinforcement, but if I do the emphasis is on the reinforcement part. Occasionally with an aggressive dog I might pull up on a GL and make the dog sit. I lessen up on the pressure when the dog calms down. 
I can't tell you when the last time I used positive punishment. I might make a loud noise to interrupt a dangerous or really obnoxious behavior. I never hit dogs or yell at them or try to cause them any pain. I think usually when a dog doesn't listen, there was a communication problem and the dog either didn't understand what you were asking or you never trained it appropriately, therefore punishment is unfair in that situation. 
I want dogs to listen to me and owners because they are motivated to listen to them, not because they feel forced to or scared of their owners. 
I like dogs to be happy when learning.
*2. Are your training sessions individual only, or do you have group training?*
•	I am not teaching currently. I am only doing private training in your home right now. Animal Friends and the Western Pa Humane Society have good classes.
*3.	Is there a significant difference in the accrediting dog training organizations, and if so, please highlight the major differences. Please limit this to only a few of the organization:*

I think that trainers who are serious about their profession treat it as a profession and take the time/invest the money into obtaining certification. It shows a commitment to professionalism and a certain level of competence.

a.	CPDT-KA (Certified Professional Dog Trainer - Knowledge Assessed) By Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers
a.	I am certified through this organization. I have the CPDT-KA and CBCC-KA. I am also a certified behavior counselor which is a much harder certification to achieve. It shows that I truly understand behavior and it's origins and how to change it, not just how to train a dog.
b.	To be certified through this organization, you have to pass a pretty difficult test (I passed both the CPDT and CBCC exams), you have to have a certain number of hours doing training/behavioral counseling, you have to have a referral from clients and a vet and you have to agree to certain standards and obtain continuing education.

b.	CDBC (Certified Dog Behavior Consultant) By International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants
a.	There is not test, you have to participate in practicums - you are given a scenario and you respond. You have to have a certain number of recommendations. It is just as good a certification as CPDT.
c. Other you feel is worth discussing
These are the two most challenging and show a certain level of competency.
If someone has graduated from the Karen Pryor Clicker Training Academy, they have a good basic core of training.
*4.	How do you feel about Invisible Fence containment systems and why?*
I hate them. They are not fences. They do not prevent other animals from entering your property . For a small dog, it still leaves them vulnerable to loose dogs and other loose animals. A real fence would keep (hopefully) other animals out. I think that people do not put the time into training them appropriately. The dog never has to feel the shock, but IF trainers often make the dog feel the shock. It's all about training that when the dog hears the sound, they back up. The dog has to learn to do that voluntarily and the IF trainers teach people to pull the dog back. Pulling a dog back teaches it nothing. I do not trust the Invisible Fence Trainers. They have given some of my clients horrible advise. I have had them teach the owner to grab the dog's collar and pull him through the fence getting shocked. This owner then could never grab the dog's collar again after that, even to put a leash on for a walk I have known dogs to develop aggression because the shock to them comes out of nowhere and they can sometimes associate the shock with what they are looking at the time: a dog/person/mailman. Many dogs will go through the fence and take the shock to chase something and won't then want to come back. I think using electric shock to train a dog is horrible, to be honest with you. We use ECT to permanently change the brain chemistry of psychiatric patients. I could go on and on. I have had a couple of clients who have used them in a manner in which I felt was appropriate and didn't have a problem with its use. These clients own acres of land and the dogs hardly ever get near the fence/shock line. The dogs had huge amounts of land to run. And, they were never out unattended. If they are used in small yards, the poor dog has very little room before being threatened with shock. I think the flags are not sufficient and they are taken away leaving the dog to think that the shock comes from out of nowhere. The other way in which I think they are not as bad is if they are a secondary containment system and there is a physical barrier there. Then, the dog can associate the shock with the fence or barrier. It's like a child learning not to touch something hot. At least they think the shock comes from something rather than from out of nowhere. Also, I find that people get lazy with the training and lazy with the batteries. If the dog is permitted to go through when the batteries are dead but, they get shocked other times, it can lead to a lot of uncertainty and confusion which can lead to behavior problems including aggression.
*5. Anything you think I should have asked but didn't.*

I think that's it. No trainer should offer you any kind of guarantee. I see myself as working with you guys and then you work with your pup.
The most important thing for your pup right now is that your pup needs to be socialized with people and other dogs. Confident dogs are formed, not made. Unsocialized dogs are often fearful and can be aggressive. The most important time is birth to 16 weeks when the primary socialization period ends. During this time the pup should meet 100 new people and 100 new dogs.
You should like your trainer. Your trainer should be just as good with people as he/she is with dogs.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Great answers. I don't think you really need any specific follow-up questions. I also think it's absolutely fine to work with this person at home, and take puppy K and other group classes at the center she recommended. I have always worked with more than one trainer. It doesn't confuse the DOG at all, because it's you, not the trainer who works directly with the dog. Sometimes the handler gets confused.<g> Often, good trainers are working toward the same goal, but say things in a different way. Also, there are often many :right" ways to train a behavior... some work with some dogs better than others, and some trainers feel more comfortable with certain techniques. If you find yourself confused by things two different instructors are saying, TALK to them about it... they can probably help you understand better, or modify what they are asking you to do, if another technique works better for your dog.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

krandall said:


> Great answers. I don't think you really need any specific follow-up questions. I also think it's absolutely fine to work with this person at home, and take puppy K and other group classes at the center she recommended. I have always worked with more than one trainer. It doesn't confuse the DOG at all, because it's you, not the trainer who works directly with the dog. Sometimes the handler gets confused.<g> Often, good trainers are working toward the same goal, but say things in a different way. Also, there are often many :right" ways to train a behavior... some work with some dogs better than others, and some trainers feel more comfortable with certain techniques. If you find yourself confused by things two different instructors are saying, TALK to them about it... they can probably help you understand better, or modify what they are asking you to do, if another technique works better for your dog.


I was hoping you'd reply, and I'm glad to hear it won't be counter productive to have one trainer for group classes and another for in-home private. I really liked her resume and responses. I asked if I could observe (as a quiet bystander) one of her training sessions if she could obtain the approval of one of her clients. I'll understand if I can't since her sessions are private in-home classes.


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## SJ1998 (Feb 4, 2013)

It's not unlike sports. For example with tennis its very common to take group lessons and then have private lessons on the side. assuming you have the time and money. Then later on, it goes to working with coach X on groundies and coach Y on serving...coach B on strategy etc. 

I think the toughest thing is trying to tell if a trainer is "good" or not. Staying with the tennis example, I have a very good feel for whether or not someone is a crappy instructor, no matter how many certifications they have or what's in their bio. But with dog training, I dont know, so I have to rely on common sense and this forum. You'll see the difference in your dog and how they respond, which will guide you to the type of training that works. For my dog he takes direction very well. I can tell though that he is VERY sensitive, even though he's a rough playing crazy puppy! I think this is why you'll see a lot of people on here very resistant to anything that is "negative" as we've all noticed how our dogs respond to encouragement.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

She sent me You Tube videos of her training. I think I can post the links, but I don't know how to imbed the clips. Hopefully this works, if it does, what's the final verdict?? Do "We" (as in our community) like her?


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

Another one


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

trainer sounds good.


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## Gibbs Mom and Dad (Jun 3, 2013)

davetgabby said:


> trainer sounds good.


Any more I can and should do to screen her beside setting up a session to see how Dana, Gibbs and I like her?


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Gibbs Mom and Dad said:


> Any more I can and should do to screen her beside setting up a session to see how Dana, Gibbs and I like her?


you've asked some good questions, and she gave you all the right answers., I'd go ahead. I can check her out further for you if you want. Just email me privately and I'll look at her web site if you want. forget that I found her site. She' fine, go for it. her recommended reading list is good. lol


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