# Belly Grooming



## gabbygool (Oct 27, 2021)

So I want to ask, how do you all groom your dogs' bellies, especially for those dogs that do not feel comfortable laying on their back or side for grooming?

Enzo and I have been working very hard on cooperative care with his brush. I am at the same time learning how to care for a drop coat. It's been hard balancing the need to groom his fur vs. going at a pace where he is tolerating the groom. We've gotten to a decent point now where I can brush a lot of his fur to the skin around his sides, I work a little slower with his face and paws and rump since those are his more sensitive areas. He lays on his tummy since I am still not able to get him to comfortably lay on his side, though I'd like to get him there one day. In any case, his tummy is out of reach when I groom him like this, so often I have to hold him up to get it since he's never been comfortable laying on his back for a groom. Is there a better position to hold them so you can see what you are doing while you are doing it? I can't help but think I'm not getting to all of his fur this way, and that I'm making him super uncomfortable :/

I've been told a few times that I shouldn't let him "get away" with refusing a groom or struggling, but I'm conflicted a bit because I value things like cooperative care so much, and I don't ever want Enzo to feel scared or helpless during a groom.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

I have a grooming table where I groom my dogs. This has been one of the best purchases I have ever made. There are certain tasks like paw pad trimming that I feel are impossible without a grooming table.


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## gabbygool (Oct 27, 2021)

mudpuppymama said:


> I have a grooming table where I groom my dogs. This has been one of the best purchases I have ever made. There are certain tasks like paw pad trimming that I feel are impossible without a grooming table.


Did you have to desensitize your pups to the grooming noose? I want a full size grooming table for myself, I know it will be an important investment for us.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

gabbygool said:


> Did you have to desensitize your pups to the grooming noose? I want a full size grooming table for myself, I know it will be an important investment for us.


My dogs are 14 so I have had it a long time. I don’t recall any particular desensitization being needed for the loop. However, Mia absolutely hated grooming and I hate to desensitize her for everything! All it took was some treats which she still gets every time she goes on the table. In fact she actually runs to the table to be groomed as long as she knows treats are waiting for her.


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## gabbygool (Oct 27, 2021)

mudpuppymama said:


> My dogs are 14 so I have had it a long time. I don’t recall any particular desensitization being needed for the loop. However, Mia absolutely hated grooming and I hate to desensitize her for everything! All it took was some treats which she still gets every time she goes on the table. In fact she actually runs to the table to be groomed as long as she knows treats are waiting for her.


That's good to hear. Enzo gets excited for grooming too since he knows he gets treats! He doesn't like the brushing, but he knows he has good stuff coming, which I think really helps him to relax. Giving him directions helps too, he has to think about what he should be doing in order to get rewarded. I let him leave and choose to come back when he gets a little overwhelmed, and he always comes back when I give him a few seconds to think about it. I'm hoping he's ok with the noose, since it will give me the opportunity to have both hands free for the more difficult groom areas.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

With any puppy that you even THINK you might want to show, you NEED to have a grooming table, or at least a grooming “station” on the counter or somewhere of a reasonable height and nice and sturdy. Put a memory foam bath mat on it. Attach a grooming arm. Feed him EVERY meal there. That is the beginning of your desensitization. In the beginning, just let him stand there and eat his meal while you gently stroke him with a brush. Then start hand feeding him with his head in the grooming loop. (I HATE the word “noose”!) Now you have a dog who is happy to be up on the table and will stand in the grooming loop and you can GENTLY work on his belly! 

I do NOT pull on mats on the belly. A judge can’t see under there anyway. I gently cut them out with my peanut trimmers as long as they cannot be seen, ESPECIALLY on a young puppy.

AT THE SAME TIME, you really NEED to be working SEPARATELY on getting him to lie on both sides. Do NOT do this in the context of grooming yet. You may need to use some (gentle) force to get him down in the beginning, then treat, treat treat and let him right up. Then do it again later in the day. And the next day. And the next. If you are going to keep an adult dog in a full show coat, you are GOING to need to get at his underside and groom him. Lots of dogs feel very vulnerable on their backs. Most of them are relatively comfortable lying on their sides and will eventually accept lying on both sides and letting you access their belly on a grooming table so that you can gently groom them. But the position has to be trained first, without trying to groom them at the same time.

And both need to be done on a grooming surface of an appropriate height. I now use a grooming table, and have for years. But when I only had Kodi, I groomed him on top of our washing mashine, and that worked quite well for several years









This is my grooming set-up now:


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

gabbygool said:


> That's good to hear. Enzo gets excited for grooming too since he knows he gets treats! He doesn't like the brushing, but he knows he has good stuff coming, which I think really helps him to relax. Giving him directions helps too, he has to think about what he should be doing in order to get rewarded. I let him leave and choose to come back when he gets a little overwhelmed, and he always comes back when I give him a few seconds to think about it. I'm hoping he's ok with the noose, since it will give me the opportunity to have both hands free for the more difficult groom areas.


I think he will be fine with the noose. The noose will make YOU more comfortable and if you are more at ease, he will be too! It may help to do a bit of grooming at a time vs. a long dragged out session. I try to avoid long grooming sessions myself.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

This is interesting. I have managed to groom Mia without ever having her lie on her sides, even when her hair was long! However, I have had to become a bit of a contortionist at times.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

gabbygool said:


> That's good to hear. Enzo gets excited for grooming too since he knows he gets treats! He doesn't like the brushing, but he knows he has good stuff coming, which I think really helps him to relax. Giving him directions helps too, he has to think about what he should be doing in order to get rewarded. I let him leave and choose to come back when he gets a little overwhelmed, and he always comes back when I give him a few seconds to think about it. I'm hoping he's ok with the noose, since it will give me the opportunity to have both hands free for the more difficult groom areas.


I am a big believer in cooperative care when possible. But I also believe that with both animals and children that you do them no favors giving them a “choice” to leave when something HAS to be done that is unpleasant. You have not reached that point yet with Enzo, but you will. When he starts to blow coat, youjust can’t let him leave when he is matted and opts out. It is your responsibility to de-mat him. As gently as possible, but prolonging the agony is not going to make it easier for either of you. Being a Havanese in full coat means needing to learn to stay still and quiet while mats are worked out. The sooner he learns that, the less uncomfortable his life will be. This is a place where a little “tough love” is really a kindness.

Otherwise, you will end up needing to have him cut him down. THAT’S not the end of the world either of course. But I guarantee you, that the groomer is not going to let him opt out. She will hold him still and get the job done.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> This is interesting. I have managed to groom Mia without ever having her lie on her sides, even when her hair was long! However, I have had to become a bit of a contortionist at times.


You have not had a boy peeing on his belly hair.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> You have not had a boy peeing on his belly hair.


Yikes…well I do have a male yorkie but he does not have much hair on his belly period!


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## gabbygool (Oct 27, 2021)

Thank you Karen! I needed to hear that. I know this is a learning process for both Enzo and I. Thankfully his fur hasn't grown too long that it's unmanageable. I am learning to use tough love when I have to. I am a bit of a softie but I know it's not worth it if it ends in my dog getting covered in matts.

Is there a thread here or some sort of video/article I could read on which types of brushes to use when? I invested in the CC buttercomb and I think it works very nicely for matts and generally when brushing to the skin. My next brush is probably the oblong wood pin brush since it is so heavily recommend here. I have a feet/face comb that is a generic brand that I use sometimes. I'd love to get a chance to see a video or read through someone's process so I know I'm doing it right and using the right tools at the right time.


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## gabbygool (Oct 27, 2021)

krandall said:


> With any puppy that you even THINK you might want to show, you NEED to have a grooming table, or at least a grooming “station” on the counter or somewhere of a reasonable height and nice and sturdy. Put a memory foam bath mat on it. Attach a grooming arm. Feed him EVERY meal there. That is the beginning of your desensitization. In the beginning, just let him stand there and eat his meal while you gently stroke him with a brush. Then start hand feeding him with his head in the grooming loop. (I HATE the word “noose”!) Now you have a dog who is happy to be up on the table and will stand in the grooming loop and you can GENTLY work on his belly!
> 
> I do NOT pull on mats on the belly. A judge can’t see under there anyway. I gently cut them out with my peanut trimmers as long as they cannot be seen, ESPECIALLY on a young puppy.
> 
> ...


The word loop is so much better! It just wasn't coming to me, lol. Enzo thankfully is very comfortable on tall surfaces. I don't think he will mind being up on a table or on the machine, but I will make sure to desensitize him anyway.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

gabbygool said:


> Thank you Karen! I needed to hear that. I know this is a learning process for both Enzo and I. Thankfully his fur hasn't grown too long that it's unmanageable. I am learning to use tough love when I have to. I am a bit of a softie but I know it's not worth it if it ends in my dog getting covered in matts.
> 
> Is there a thread here or some sort of video/article I could read on which types of brushes to use when? I invested in the CC buttercomb and I think it works very nicely for matts and generally when brushing to the skin. My next brush is probably the oblong wood pin brush since it is so heavily recommend here. I have a feet/face comb that is a generic brand that I use sometimes. I'd love to get a chance to see a video or read through someone's process so I know I'm doing it right and using the right tools at the right time.


I would skip the wood pin brush for now if you plan to keep him in full coat. IMO, it is only useful for fluffing when you are drying him. Spend your money on a CC Ice Slip brush instead. This will do everything the wood pin brush will, it is more durable, and it will move through a full coat better. It doesn’t look like Enzo has much under coat yet, and a wood pin brush won’t even START to go through any undercoat.

For a slicker type brush, I do NOT like the CC brushes, so save some money there! The ones I like best are WICKED expensive and imported, (Le Pooche) so skip those. ALMOST as good is the Artero double sided slicker: https://smile.amazon.com/Artero-Small-Double-Sided-Slicker/dp/B06XPPM7B8/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3M5657R7E8H0F&keywords=artero+grooming+products&qid=1668738576&sprefix=Artero,aps,86&sr=8-2&th=1

Or if you want an even cheaper one, this one is not at all bad either: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B07B267...t-supplies&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWw

In terms of what tool to use when, I think it is a matter of learning your own dog’s coat to some extent. I don’t always use the same tools on each dog. Their coats are all different. My go-to tool is ALWAYS a Buttercomb or Greyhound comb (they are more expensive) but when Kodi was in full coat and for Panda, I usually used the finer end. 

For Ducky, his coat is SO dense, that I couldn’t possibly get the fine end through his coat until he is COMPLETELY combed out with with wide end. I’m guessing that you would use almost exclusively the fine end on Enzo, unless you hit a mat. 

For Ducky, I start with him standing on the table in the grooming loop, and comb him all over, using Ice on Ice, starting on his shoulders, and chest and working back. First one side, then the other. I feel underneath for any “trouble spots”. If there is just something tiny that I can get with him standing “by feel”, I do it. If not, I get him out of the loop, lay him down and deal with it. FORTUNATELY, this happens less if I keep him really clean, and also as he matures. He is now 19 months old, and I have been REALLY lucky that he has never blown coat heavily. When he DOES have matting that needs to be addressed under there, I take him out of the loop and lay him down. I really douse the mats with Ice on Ice and VERY carefully tease them apart. (also, any mats in his groin or around his sheath I just remove with my Wahl Peanut trimmer. This counts as “sanitary area, and is FINE for you to clean up with trimming! Don’t hurt your dog de-matting these areas or in the arm pits!) I am SUPER careful not to pull on him him so he has no reason not to trust me when he is lying down! Cookies the MOMENT I’m done with that!!! After I comb him through, I use the slicker to fluff his feet, then the face comb on his mustache and beard. (Fine end of THAT in the corner of his eyes) Then I take his head out of the loop and ask him to put his head down on the table for me to do his head and neck. I comb his head, neck, and ears with the regular comb, then go back to the face comb to part his pony and put it up. AND… he’s done!

BTW, how are you trimming his nails and feet at this point if you aren’t using a grooming loop? I can’t imagine doing that with the dog loose. I actually do groom Panda loose for most things, but even she, as good as she is, is in the grooming loop for feet and nails!


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

For getting him to le on his side or back, how does he feel on your lap? When I need Perry on his back I sit on the floor with my legs or in front of me and I gently put him on his back cradled on my legs, treating if needed. He's a lot more comfortable in my lap like they then he would be if I tried to por him on his back on a table. You could try it on your lap first and then transition to the grooming table.


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## gabbygool (Oct 27, 2021)

krandall said:


> I would skip the wood pin brush for now if you plan to keep him in full coat. IMO, it is only useful for fluffing when you are drying him. Spend your money on a CC Ice Slip brush instead. This will do everything the wood pin brush will, it is more durable, and it will move through a full coat better. It doesn’t look like Enzo has much under coat yet, and a wood pin brush won’t even START to go through any undercoat.
> 
> For a slicker type brush, I do NOT like the CC brushes, so save some money there! The ones I like best are WICKED expensive and imported, (Le Pooche) so skip those. ALMOST as good is the Artero double sided slicker: https://smile.amazon.com/Artero-Small-Double-Sided-Slicker/dp/B06XPPM7B8/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3M5657R7E8H0F&keywords=artero+grooming+products&qid=1668738576&sprefix=Artero,aps,86&sr=8-2&th=1
> 
> ...


Thank you for all of this! I am probably going to read through it a few times again to make sure I absorbed everything lol. I do need to order some Ice on Ice, do you use the detangler/finisher or dematting spray? I am using some puppy fur detangler I picked up at the store and I'm not a huge fan.

Also yes, Enzo is only 7 months and hasn't developed his undercoat or blown coat yet. I'm not looking forward to it. Hoping it won't be so bad that I have to shave him, but hair grows. It won't be the end of the world. 

His groin definitely gets messier since he licks it after he pees (nice, right) so I'm wondering how one would use the peanut trimmer to clean up the area without trimming too much. I will likely order one since right now I just have some grooming sheers, and they aren't really great for matts.

As for his nails - I honestly usually have a helper either hold him or give him treats while I trim. He does better when he's hovering above the ground for a trim. 

I didn't think this was super sustainable since I don't always have a helper, so I've been practicing every night with him and trimming 2 nails at a time very slowly and with care, and hopefully will work up to trimming more as he gets more comfortable with it. The grooming table will definitely help. His nails are not as short as they should be, I admit, but they are not nearly as long as most other pet dog nails I've seen 😅 I want to get them shorter over time, which I know is possible with a bit of diligence. I may also have to see if I can get a groomer to help out.

I admit I've made a lot of mistakes with him since he's my first puppy and my first experience with a drop coated dog. I really want to keep trying my best with him even if it means we have some hiccups along the way. I guess my biggest concern is turning him into a dog that tries to bite groomers, which might be silly since he has such a sweet and placid demeanor. 

Although, I felt like tonight's grooming session went well. He squirmed just a little at first but relaxed after I encouraged him and went slow. He did have some matts in his armpits, where he usually gets them. If i knew it was ok to trim them out I probably would have done that but he did ok when I combed them out. He seemed to be somewhat more comfortable on my lap. If he knows he has to be brave for a groom he takes a deep breath and sighs out. He tries very hard because he gets liver treats for being a good boy. He's pretty tired tonight too. He had a lot of fun playtime today and yesterday with some doggy friends.


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## gabbygool (Oct 27, 2021)

Melissa Brill said:


> For getting him to le on his side or back, how does he feel on your lap? When I need Perry on his back I sit on the floor with my legs or in front of me and I gently put him on his back cradled on my legs, treating if needed. He's a lot more comfortable in my lap like they then he would be if I tried to por him on his back on a table. You could try it on your lap first and then transition to the grooming table.


I wish he was comfortable this way, but no matter how I hold him on his back he finds it pretty uncomfortable. I know I can train him to be on his back, but it's just another thing to train..on my list of training things to do 😭 He's always been uncomfortable being held on his back, though he does love to sleep on his back lol.


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## gabbygool (Oct 27, 2021)

krandall said:


> I would skip the wood pin brush for now if you plan to keep him in full coat. IMO, it is only useful for fluffing when you are drying him. Spend your money on a CC Ice Slip brush instead. This will do everything the wood pin brush will, it is more durable, and it will move through a full coat better. It doesn’t look like Enzo has much under coat yet, and a wood pin brush won’t even START to go through any undercoat.
> 
> For a slicker type brush, I do NOT like the CC brushes, so save some money there! The ones I like best are WICKED expensive and imported, (Le Pooche) so skip those. ALMOST as good is the Artero double sided slicker: https://smile.amazon.com/Artero-Small-Double-Sided-Slicker/dp/B06XPPM7B8/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3M5657R7E8H0F&keywords=artero+grooming+products&qid=1668738576&sprefix=Artero,aps,86&sr=8-2&th=1
> 
> ...



Also, I meant to ask. Are you doing this process daily with Ducky? I try to brush Enzo daily but sometimes have to skip a day. It's not the end of the world but it helps keep sessions a bit shorter. I know dogs being shown need to be brushed and bathed frequently..Enzo I bathe weekly but I have heard show dogs are sometimes bathed 2 times a week.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

gabbygool said:


> Thank you for all of this! I am probably going to read through it a few times again to make sure I absorbed everything lol. I do need to order some Ice on Ice, do you use the detangler/finisher or dematting spray? I am using some puppy fur detangler I picked up at the store and I'm not a huge fan.


I've tried a lot of different ones, and IMO, none are as good as Ice on Ice.



gabbygool said:


> Also yes, Enzo is only 7 months and hasn't developed his undercoat or blown coat yet. I'm not looking forward to it. Hoping it won't be so bad that I have to shave him, but hair grows. It won't be the end of the world.


It's NOT the end of the world, but you can avoid it if you are diligent about the grooming, and a little more insistent on his behavior on the grooming table. Keep in mind that gentle insistence in this area, in the long run, is what is best for him. Cutting him down is FINE if your goal is a pet. It will NOT solve your problem if your goal is to show him. You NEED to teach him to behave for grooming, and that is MUCH better taught while he is young than to try to convince him when he is an adult and has already experienced the discomfort of matting.



gabbygool said:


> His groin definitely gets messier since he licks it after he pees (nice, right) so I'm wondering how one would use the peanut trimmer to clean up the area without trimming too much. I will likely order one since right now I just have some grooming sheers, and they aren't really great for matts.


It really isn't safe using shears under there. One wrong move and you can slice him. Then he will lick and cause infections... then the dreaded cone... With the peanut trimmer, you can just lightly skate over the surface. I try not to trim right to the skin, which makes them itchy. But most of the little mats under there, I find are actually held a bit away from the skin on little single hairs and it is usually easy to scoop under them and remove them. It might help to have someone else hold his front feet up from behind, so you can get a good view of his underside from the front while you are doing it. I've gotten to the point that I can do it "Braille method". You CAN'T cut him with the clippers. (you can prove this against your own hand)



gabbygool said:


> As for his nails - I honestly usually have a helper either hold him or give him treats while I trim. He does better when he's hovering above the ground for a trim.


That works for nails, and maybe even paw pads, though it means you always have to have a second person. It does NOT work for trimming feet. For a dog in coat, the feet have to be trimmed even with the ground... Meaning that the dog needs to be standing still on a level surface as you trim...



gabbygool said:


> I admit I've made a lot of mistakes with him since he's my first puppy and my first experience with a drop coated dog. I really want to keep trying my best with him even if it means we have some hiccups along the way. I guess my biggest concern is turning him into a dog that tries to bite groomers, which might be silly since he has such a sweet and placid demeanor.


That is a good goal, but it is more likely that he will not tolerate a groomer if he is babied too much. He needs to accept that sometimes things will be done to him that he doesn't really want, and he needs to accept it anyway. You should expect that a groomer always handle him GENTLY, but a groomer should not have to baby him or put up with nonsense. 



gabbygool said:


> Although, I felt like tonight's grooming session went well. He squirmed just a little at first but relaxed after I encouraged him and went slow. He did have some matts in his armpits, where he usually gets them. If i knew it was ok to trim them out I probably would have done that but he did ok when I combed them out. He seemed to be somewhat more comfortable on my lap. If he knows he has to be brave for a groom he takes a deep breath and sighs out. He tries very hard because he gets liver treats for being a good boy. He's pretty tired tonight too. He had a lot of fun playtime today and yesterday with some doggy friends.


I would REALLY stop the lap grooming. For two reasons. First, it will eventually make your lap an aversive place. Second, and MOST important, it will be absolutely impossible to groom him completely there once his coat really comes in, and ESPECIALLY while he is blowing coat. While you are trying to groom some parts, the parts in contact with your lap are going to rub other mats into him.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I just posted a video of grooming Ducky for you. I started a different thread, since it isn't specifically about belly grooming! LOL!


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## gabbygool (Oct 27, 2021)

krandall said:


> I just posted a video of grooming Ducky for you. I started a different thread, since it isn't specifically about belly grooming! LOL!


Thank you! I really appreciate all the advice. I definitely want to get a proper grooming table set up at home, since I know you are right that it's really the best way to groom him completely.


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## gabbygool (Oct 27, 2021)

krandall said:


> I've tried a lot of different ones, and IMO, none are as good as Ice on Ice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do want to clarify, now that Enzo is older and more tolerant of the tools, I do not let him leave without finishing his groom anymore. i let him do his own pace at first when introducing his brushes to him when he was tiny, but he knows now that he has to be still for a groom and needs to be able to tolerate some gentle wrangling during his groom too. I usually don't have him on my lap for most of his grooms but I will stop doing it at all now. 
He's quite tolerant of the brushing process now and never mouths the comb. His only sign of discomfort are occasional yawns and when I get to a knot he does squirm a bit at first. For the most part, he lies still for grooming and lets me work, though I have yet to get him to position himself right. The table will be good for both of us. 

I definitely want to have a table for when I trim the fur on his feet, too, I know it is impossible without one.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

gabbygool said:


> I do want to clarify, now that Enzo is older and more tolerant of the tools, I do not let him leave without finishing his groom anymore. i let him do his own pace at first when introducing his brushes to him when he was tiny, but he knows now that he has to be still for a groom and needs to be able to tolerate some gentle wrangling during his groom too. I usually don't have him on my lap for most of his grooms but I will stop doing it at all now.
> He's quite tolerant of the brushing process now and never mouths the comb. His only sign of discomfort are occasional yawns and when I get to a knot he does squirm a bit at first. For the most part, he lies still for grooming and lets me work, though I have yet to get him to position himself right. The table will be good for both of us.
> 
> I definitely want to have a table for when I trim the fur on his feet, too, I know it is impossible without one.


Well, as you can see from the video I posted, I don't expect my dogs to stay completely still while I'm grooming them. I think that is unrealistic. We work together.  I tell them when they need to stay still for a moment, or when they need to move a particular way. I WOULD start, even now, working with him on the counter or the top of the washing machine or something similar on getting him to stand still and let you at least comb his feet. Thus takes time, and he absolutely DOES need to stand rock steady for you to be able to trim his feet nicely. I'll do a video on that the next time I need to trim Ducky's feet if I think of it. They were just done last Friday, so they don't need it yet!


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## gabbygool (Oct 27, 2021)

krandall said:


> Well, as you can see from the video I posted, I don't expect my dogs to stay completely still while I'm grooming them. I think that is unrealistic. We work together.  I tell them when they need to stay still for a moment, or when they need to move a particular way. I WOULD start, even now, working with him on the counter or the top of the washing machine or something similar on getting him to stand still and let you at least comb his feet. Thus takes time, and he absolutely DOES need to stand rock steady for you to be able to trim his feet nicely. I'll do a video on that the next time I need to trim Ducky's feet if I think of it. They were just done last Friday, so they don't need it yet!


Thank you again! We will keep practicing.


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## CKOTYMIA123 (Dec 19, 2008)

gabbygool said:


> So I want to ask, how do you all groom your dogs' bellies, especially for those dogs that do not feel comfortable laying on their back or side for grooming?
> 
> Enzo and I have been working very hard on cooperative care with his brush. I am at the same time learning how to care for a drop coat. It's been hard balancing the need to groom his fur vs. going at a pace where he is tolerating the groom. We've gotten to a decent point now where I can brush a lot of his fur to the skin around his sides, I work a little slower with his face and paws and rump since those are his more sensitive areas. He lays on his tummy since I am still not able to get him to comfortably lay on his side, though I'd like to get him there one day. In any case, his tummy is out of reach when I groom him like this, so often I have to hold him up to get it since he's never been comfortable laying on his back for a groom. Is there a better position to hold them so you can see what you are doing while you are doing it? I can't help but think I'm not getting to all of his fur this way, and that I'm making him super uncomfortable :/
> 
> I've been told a few times that I shouldn't let him "get away" with refusing a groom or struggling, but I'm conflicted a bit because I value things like cooperative care so much, and I don't ever want Enzo to feel scared or helpless during a groom.


I have two Havs and they LOVE to be groomed. I start out with a treat and talk to them to ease any anxiety and they love to be spoken to. I use a WET brush (see all websites at the end for recommendations) on their coat when it is wet so it doesn't pull. One dog loves the hairdryer and the other hates it so I let her air dry and then brush her out later. I also use a comb with rotating teeth and this has been a God send for me and them as well. The fur doesn't get "caught" in the comb and you can maneuver and pull a bit to loosen any mats, although sometimes I just cut them out if they are really bad. Then after I use the teeth rotating comb I use a flea comb on their face and ears in order to get a really smooth look. As far as the tummy goes, I usually just brush it by holding onto their paws and making them stand up. I know some people like to have their tummies shaved but I don't like the look. As far as their paws go my male Hav hates it when anyone touches his paws. He won't bite but he just pulls it out of your hand so I started using one of those harnesses that you put on them and it lifts them off the ground. WOW, it works so great! Both dogs don't mind it at all and they let you do just about anything to their paws in this contraption. 

As far as having people say "don't let them get away with it" well, I just don't believe in being forceful with any dog. It may take a little longer to get your dog to love their brushings but it is worth it for you and them!









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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

CKOTYMIA123 said:


> I have two Havs and they LOVE to be groomed. I start out with a treat and talk to them to ease any anxiety and they love to be spoken to. I use a WET brush (see all websites at the end for recommendations) on their coat when it is wet so it doesn't pull. One dog loves the hairdryer and the other hates it so I let her air dry and then brush her out later. I also use a comb with rotating teeth and this has been a God send for me and them as well. The fur doesn't get "caught" in the comb and you can maneuver and pull a bit to loosen any mats, although sometimes I just cut them out if they are really bad. Then after I use the teeth rotating comb I use a flea comb on their face and ears in order to get a really smooth look. As far as the tummy goes, I usually just brush it by holding onto their paws and making them stand up. I know some people like to have their tummies shaved but I don't like the look. As far as their paws go my male Hav hates it when anyone touches his paws. He won't bite but he just pulls it out of your hand so I started using one of those harnesses that you put on them and it lifts them off the ground. WOW, it works so great! Both dogs don't mind it at all and they let you do just about anything to their paws in this contraption.
> 
> As far as having people say "don't let them get away with it" well, I just don't believe in being forceful with any dog. It may take a little longer to get your dog to love their brushings but it is worth it for you and them!
> 
> ...


I am trying to picture how the harness that lifts them off the ground works. Could you explain further? Is it one of those with a handle on top? If so I cannot figure out how you would hold them up with it while grooming.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

CKOTYMIA123 said:


> As far as their paws go my male Hav hates it when anyone touches his paws. He won't bite but he just pulls it out of your hand so I started using one of those harnesses that you put on them and it lifts them off the ground. WOW, it works so great! Both dogs don't mind it at all and they let you do just about anything to their paws in this contraption.
> 
> As far as having people say "don't let them get away with it" well, I just don't believe in being forceful with any dog. It may take a little longer to get your dog to love their brushings but it is worth it for you and them!


Sorry, I think that putting your dog who resists you working on his feet in a sling so you can work on his feet is NO different than me (gently) insisting that my dog sit still so that I can work on his feet or belly. I have never hurt my dog or yelled at him. I use ONLY the amount of force necessary to position him the way he needs to be for what I need to do. Ummm. Less than hanging him up in a sling… 

And I am NOT saying that that is a horrible thing either if it works for you. Your dogs DO need to allow you to groom their feet, and it sounds like they accept this just fine. I am just saying it is a bit disingenuous to use a sling to do your dog’s feet, and then say you don’t believe in being forceful with your dogs. You take away ALL their options when you put them in the sling.


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## gabbygool (Oct 27, 2021)

Just as an update Enzo is doing really well with a full body groom every day, I am pushing him a bit more and he's doing very well. I have a loop and bath mat on the way so we can work on top of the washer until I am able to save up for a table. His fur is pretty clean now that I'm approaching things a bit differently, though I know that our consistent training has helped a lot with his tolerance of things. Once his loop is set up his belly will probably be in better shape though it is not dire right now. For now I let him put his paws on my shoulder while he's standing on a surface so I can better get at his belly fur. He doesn't love the process but he's quite tolerant and loves being told when he's done a good job. Face fur is tough but he stays mostly still when I have a high value treat ready for him. It's progress!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

That sounds AWESOME!!! I groomed Kodi on the washing mashine for over 5 years before up-grading to a table! While I love having my table and stool, the washing machine worked great as a “standing” station for me, and standing for one dog is no problem. Having him put his paws on your shoulders is a great solution!


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## gabbygool (Oct 27, 2021)

krandall said:


> That sounds AWESOME!!! I groomed Kodi on the washing mashine for over 5 years before up-grading to a table! While I love having my table and stool, the washing machine worked great as a “standing” station for me, and standing for one dog is no problem. Having him put his paws on your shoulders is a great solution!


Thank you ❤ I appreciate all the knowledge and insight you've offered. It's helping us a lot! I wish I started posting in the forum sooner, but Enzo is still young and we are still learning a lot together.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

gabbygool said:


> Thank you ❤ I appreciate all the knowledge and insight you've offered. It's helping us a lot! I wish I started posting in the forum sooner, but Enzo is still young and we are still learning a lot together.


You’ve got plenty of time!❤


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

You mentioned that he's not a fan of cutting nails - have you tried a dremel? Perry's much better with a dremel than he is with clippers (possibly because I'm less nervous with the dremel than clippers  )


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## gabbygool (Oct 27, 2021)

Melissa Brill said:


> You mentioned that he's not a fan of cutting nails - have you tried a dremel? Perry's much better with a dremel than he is with clippers (possibly because I'm less nervous with the dremel than clippers  )


I want to try but I need to see how it's done first, I am afraid of getting his fur caught in the dremel. I've heard bearded dogs can get beard hair stuck too!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> You mentioned that he's not a fan of cutting nails - have you tried a dremel? Perry's much better with a dremel than he is with clippers (possibly because I'm less nervous with the dremel than clippers  )


Yes!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

gabbygool said:


> I want to try but I need to see how it's done first, I am afraid of getting his fur caught in the dremel. I've heard bearded dogs can get beard hair stuck too!


I've got a video for that! LOL! It's on here somewhere. See if you can find it. I'll see if I can find it on YouTube.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Here you go: 




And here is dew claws: 




And here is trimming feet with the Wahl trimmer:


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

If Perry's feet are a little long (the hair) I sometimes will wet it (not soaking just so that it will lie flat) which makes it easier to push it to the side to expose the nail before dremeling. The only solution to the beard getting caught though is to keep their head away from their feet when you're dremeling


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> If Perry's feet are a little long (the hair) I sometimes will wet it (not soaking just so that it will lie flat) which makes it easier to push it to the side to expose the nail before dremeling. The only solution to the beard getting caught though is to keep their head away from their feet when you're dremeling


Yes to both. I refer to Dremel right after a bath, because the nails are much softer, just like clipping nails.

And watch the video I posted. this shows how to position the dog so that the foot is completely away from the dog's face. Until I learned this method from a professional groomer, I scared myself so badly by catching Kodi's beard in the Dremel that I stopped using it for 2 years!!!


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## gabbygool (Oct 27, 2021)

krandall said:


> Here you go:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you!!!


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## gabbygool (Oct 27, 2021)

Finally had a chance to set up our little DIY grooming station today. Enzo did so much better than I thought he would! He stood very still for most of the groom and laid down when he was comfortable. His face was last and definitely was met with the most resistance. He did get some cheese for his efforts 😉
Here he is before I let him go back to being a goober.
















He had a lot of fun messing up his hairdo just minutes later


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Yay!!!


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## gabbygool (Oct 27, 2021)

Alright, update time! Enzo's belly fur is now long enough that he gets urine on it when he goes out to potty. How do I deal with this between baths?


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## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

I just do more frequent as needed belly washes to keep the “smellies” away. Once neutered the little boys aren’t as smelly but since you are showing maybe someone else has another suggestion.


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## gabbygool (Oct 27, 2021)

Pucks104 said:


> I just do more frequent as needed belly washes to keep the “smellies” away. Once neutered the little boys aren’t as smelly but since you are showing maybe someone else has another suggestion.


yeah i would but i just bathed him Friday and he was already stinking a bit on Sunday


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## Pucks104 (Aug 16, 2012)

gabbygool said:


> yeah i would but i just bathed him Friday and he was already stinking a bit on Sunday


I know but I just do the belly wash whenever the boys get smelly and that can be really frequent


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## gabbygool (Oct 27, 2021)

Pucks104 said:


> I know but I just do the belly wash whenever the boys get smelly and that can be really frequent


The price i pay for keeping him in a long coat....


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

gabbygool said:


> The price i pay for keeping him in a long coat....


OK, there are a bunch if parts to this, and a lot of it is, “it depends”. First, some boys are a LOT hairier under there than others. Kodi has quite a clean belly hair-wise, so he NEVER peed on his belly! I was HORRIFIED when I heard that other boy Havanese did that! Also, because Kodi is so much older, and never was meant to show in conformation, he was neutered (by today’s standards!) WAY too early, at 7 months. So he not only never peed on his belly, also never had “smelly boy pee”

Then along came dear Ducky. Who has the worlds fluffiest belly. And by 7-8 months old, had pee that smelled like a billy goat!!! 🤮

When he was younger, with less skirt, I had Dave hold him standing up on his hind feet, and shaved out his belly in front of his heath, up to his ribs. This kept him from gettin pee on his belly hair, and the judges can’t see it. There is no problem doing this, even when they are showing. 

The problem is, the longer their skirt gets, and the higher they lift their leg, the more likely they are to pee on their skirt. (Kodi has also NEVER been a leg-lifter for peeing, only for occasional marking, and he hardly ever does that. Ducky ONLY pees by leg-lifting… first one leg, turn around and lift the other leg!🙄. What can I say? All boy!) 

And the SMELL!!! i talked to several breeders, and even the vet about it. The GOOD news is that the super strong “billy goat smell” is teenage-ness, and does pass. (THANK DOG!!!) but it was probably close to 6 months when I was giving him belly baths every 3 days or so, or I couldn’t be near him!

SOOO… next phase. When their coat gets REALLY long, if you are going to continue showing them, you have to manage it in some way, or there is no way that they can help peeing on it. It’s not their fault… it’s just in the way. Enzo’s coat is dark, so it won’t stain, but the pee will actually start to break is coat if he repeatedly pees on it and it dries, and you try to comb through that mess. With Ducky’s white coat it that area, it would also be all stained yellow. EEEWWW! So the trick I’ve learned from the other people with male “Specials” is that Ducky wears a disposable diaper, used like a belly band, so not over his butt, just around his loins, when he goes outside to pee. That way, the pee goes into the diaper, and not on his coat! It’s not tight against his body like a belly band is, it makes a pocket for his “boy parts”, so the pee is absorbed and does not touch his body. 

It’s a bit of a pain, and I don’t remember 100% of the time, but he also no longer smells like a billy goat, so his pee is not so bad!!! Now, if I forget, a wipe with a baby wipe gets him reasonably sanitary. I do ALWAYS make sure he wears a diaper from the time he’s bathed for a show until he goes into the show ring! No judge wants to stick a hand under there and get all mucky, and there is rarely time to get them cleaned up again if they need to pee right before going into the ring!


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## gabbygool (Oct 27, 2021)

krandall said:


> OK, there are a bunch if parts to this, and a lot of it is, “it depends”. First, some boys are a LOT hairier under there than others. Kodi has quite a clean belly hair-wise, so he NEVER peed on his belly! I was HORRIFIED when I heard that other boy Havanese did that! Also, because Kodi is so much older, and never was meant to show in conformation, he was neutered (by today’s standards!) WAY too early, at 7 months. So he not only never peed on his belly, also never had “smelly boy pee”
> 
> Then along came dear Ducky. Who has the worlds fluffiest belly. And by 7-8 months old, had pee that smelled like a billy goat!!! 🤮
> 
> ...


I'm so glad right now that Enzo has black hair LOL. At 7.5 months his pee STINKS, I was a little worried he might not be getting enough water so it's good to know it's normal even though it's gross. 

Enzo still only lifts his leg infrequently, and doesn't lift it very high. So hopefully that might help prevent him from getting pee on his tummy so much. I will try shaving him though I am not sure exactly how short to go and I still need to desensitize him to the clippers... Hopefully he won't go into full Boy Mode and start marking a lot. He has a potty routine he sticks to pretty regularly. 

All else fails I will try the diapers if he needs them. Boys are so nasty!! But loveable.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

gabbygool said:


> I'm so glad right now that Enzo has black hair LOL. At 7.5 months his pee STINKS, I was a little worried he might not be getting enough water so it's good to know it's normal even though it's gross.
> 
> Enzo still only lifts his leg infrequently, and doesn't lift it very high. So hopefully that might help prevent him from getting pee on his tummy so much. I will try shaving him though I am not sure exactly how short to go and I still need to desensitize him to the clippers... Hopefully he won't go into full Boy Mode and start marking a lot. He has a potty routine he sticks to pretty regularly.
> 
> All else fails I will try the diapers if he needs them. Boys are so nasty!! But loveable.


Oh, I forgot the water thing… my vet DID suggest trying to get more water into him by adding water to his food to dilute his urine more. I can’t tell you how successful it was in reducing the odor. I think the real help was him just getting older! Fortunately, talking to Panda’s (his mother’s) breeder was reassuring, becaus eshe told me that she had had the same problem with several of her boys, and it DID pass with all of hers. SHE had the advantage that she sent hers on the road with show handlers during that period! LOL!

And yes, boys ARE nasty… (AND oh-so-sweet! ❤)


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Also, I want to make it clear that the diapering is ONLY necessary if regular washing and clipping out his belly doesn’t keep him clean enough AND you want to keep showing him once he has a long skirt. Ducky had a light coat like Enzo’s when he was younger, and it wasn’t until the end of the summer, so, well past his first birthday, that his coat was full enough that just shaving out his belly wasn’t enough.


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