# Unlearning a behavior



## Chi-Chi's Mom (Dec 10, 2015)

I made a training oops. In 2nd puppy class Chi-Chi was taught to lay down. I would hold the treat in a closed fist and once she laid completely down, I would let her have the treat. Somehow I forgot that I was first supposed to give her the 2 fingers down hand signal. Now she will only lay down when I place my closed fist on the floor. Does anyone have ideas to re-train her on this one? Please and thank you!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Chi-Chi's Mom said:


> I made a training oops. In 2nd puppy class Chi-Chi was taught to lay down. I would hold the treat in a closed fist and once she laid completely down, I would let her have the treat. Somehow I forgot that I was first supposed to give her the 2 fingers down hand signal. Now she will only lay down when I place my closed fist on the floor. Does anyone have ideas to re-train her on this one? Please and thank you!


Yes. It's pretty easy to replace one cue with another. That said, there is NOTHING that says that the cue to "down" has to be two fingers.  I personally use a flat, open hand as my down signal, because that later becomes my "Drop on Recall" signal, which needs to be seen from much farther away.

To change a cue from one thing to another, use the new cue, immediately followed by the old cue. Dogs are MASTERS of anticipation, so sooner or later, she will start to go down on the first cue, instead of waiting for the second one. (probaby sooner than later, considering that she's only had the skill for a short while)


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

good stuff Karen. In general dogs "unlearn" by what's known as extinction. , and this is simply when something is no longer reinforced. One of the keys to training is fading the lures that you use to train something like this. Here is some good reading on this.

fading a lure Fading a lure | Dogmantics Dog Training

changing a cue Adding a verbal cue or changing a cue | Dogmantics Dog Training


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## Chi-Chi's Mom (Dec 10, 2015)

Thanks Karen and Dave! We're going to work on it tonight. I'll let you know how it goes.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> good stuff Karen. In general dogs "unlearn" by what's known as extinction. , and this is simply when something is no longer reinforced. One of the keys to training is fading the lures that you use to train something like this. Here is some good reading on this.
> 
> fading a lure Fading a lure | Dogmantics Dog Training
> 
> changing a cue Adding a verbal cue or changing a cue | Dogmantics Dog Training


Right but this doesn't sound like it's acting as a lure anymore... She didn't say she was luring him down with food. It sounds to me like the closed hand inadvertently became the cue. Which is why I talked about changing from the "old" cue to a new one.

As Emily said in this column, we try, even when using lures for training, to use a hand position for the lure that will morph into the cue for a finished behavior. For instance, since we use an open hand for the "down" cue (to eventually become the drop cue) during the time when we still need the cookie for a lure, it is held underneath, against our palm, with our thumb. It's easy peasy to just fade away the cookie,and use just the hand signal.

Also, her point of continuing to use lures where you need muscle development is important. Yes, it's easy to teach any 6 week old puppy to do a lumpy, dumpy puppy sit, pushing back with his front feet. But that will bite you in the butt down the line in obedience. (for instance, the dog will fall out of heel position every time you halt, and will inadvertently pull back away from you in avery front.

For that reason, we insist on a tuck sit for EVERY sit. That takes time, not to learn, but to develop the muscles and hind end control. So we do literally, THOUSANDS of them, all lured, putting no cue on it at all, just clicking for the puppy getting those back feet pulled up and tucked under. When the puppy is consistently offering a tuck sit, (you can see them start to do it naturally, even when they aren't asked for a sit) THEN we put it on cue.

There are plenty of other behaviors that come much more naturally, and we put those on cue and lose the lure very quickly. A fold back down is one of those for most dogs, though not for the really deep chested breeds like Greyhounds and Whippets.

One thing that is very different about formal obedience training than the trick training Emily is talking about is that, except when doing pure clicker training, we do NOT want a dog offering behaviors when not asked. A dog who sits before he is cued will get you NQ'd in a lot of exercises in competition! Because competition obedience dogs who are positively trained WANT to work so much, you have to also work on impulse control... a LOT. They need to wait for the cue. You don't DO anything when they don't wait, except start again, but they certainly don't get clicked or rewarded for it.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yeah Karen , I think we're running the risk of confusing her here, cause I'm not sure what you mean either LOL> I think she used luring to teach this and she still is luring with her hand movement .??


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

davetgabby said:


> yeah Karen , I think we're running the risk of confusing her here, cause I'm not sure what you mean either LOL> I think she used luring to teach this and she still is luring with her hand movement .??


I guess it depends on whether she has food in her hand or not. Yes-lure, no-cue. It might be low to start with for a baby puppy, and it gets raised over time, with understanding and better visual tracking.


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## Chi-Chi's Mom (Dec 10, 2015)

davetgabby said:


> yeah Karen , I think we're running the risk of confusing her here, cause I'm not sure what you mean either LOL> I think she used luring to teach this and she still is luring with her hand movement .??


 I do have food in my hand and offer it only when she lays down. So am I correct in this sequence: New cue, old cue then reward? Or is there a better way to do this? Thanks.


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## Chi-Chi's Mom (Dec 10, 2015)

krandall said:


> It sounds to me like the closed hand inadvertently became the cue.
> 
> Yes! that is exactly what happened.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Chi-Chi's Mom said:


> krandall said:
> 
> 
> > It sounds to me like the closed hand inadvertently became the cue.
> ...


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## Chi-Chi's Mom (Dec 10, 2015)

krandall said:


> Chi-Chi's Mom said:
> 
> 
> > Well, not really. If you still have to have the food in your hand to get her to go down, it's a lure. BELIEVE me. Whether she can see it or not, she know's the treat is in your hand.
> ...


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