# Purina Pro Plan..Why all the hate?



## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

Can someone please tell me?


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

The main reason I do not care for this food because it is dependent upon the addition of synthetic vitamins and minerals for the dog to get the nutrition it needs. One of the main things I look for in a dog food is that it can provide the dog with the nutrition it needs WITHOUT the addition of synthetic vitamins and minerals. I want my dogs to get their nutrition from food, not fake vitamins and minerals. When they get their nutrition from food vs. synthetics, there is less chance of vitamin and mineral toxicity and more chance that the dog will get what it needs from the food. This problem exists in all types of food...not just kibble. There are only two brands of kibble I know of that do not add synthetics.

Nature's Logic
Carna4

Here is an article that explains this in more detail.

https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/dog-food-nutrition/

Not too long ago, Hill's had tons of recalls on vitamin D overdose. That is because the vitamin mix contained way too much vitamin D. Many dogs got sick and died. They are also finding that some dogs are getting copper storage toxicity because some of the vitamin mixes are too high in copper and they do not take into account the copper the dog gets from other ingredients in the food. Playing around with synthetic additives is risky.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

Tere said:


> Can someone please tell me?


Lots of recalls, I presume caused by poor quality control.

Ricky's Popi


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I do have a bias against Purina but I don’t even remember where it came from! It’s reasonable for me to reevaluate. But I do have a rant about dog food.

I personally don’t have any problem with synthetic, lab manufactured vitamins, minerals, or other ingredients in any product. My concern stems from the lack of regulation of dog food in general. What bothers me most about it is that there are all of these “regulatory agencies” and marketing that imply our dog food standards are much higher than they really are. In reality there are all of these loopholes manufacturers actively use to save money or for convenience. These loopholes don’t even exist in other industries, so they completely fly under the radar. I’m not particularly cautious about food ingredients, but I am health conscious, I just choose to look at diet as a whole, generally over the course of a week, and I don’t focus on individual ingredients or foods unless it’s important to the big picture. I don’t have any problem for example giving my kids sugar cereal once a week, yet I am horrified by what goes into dog food without a second glance. I also think for those concerned about synthetic ingredients, like Mudpuppymama, some of the issues that have come up are related to a lack of meaningful regulation.

To be fair, it’s a complicated issue. What we feed animals and how we regulate it, and what it’s based on, would need a lot of changes to meet the standards most people think dog food is already manufactured to. But again, that’s my big problem. People assume (myself included) a certain standard is already being met. A lot of changes have been made to address these issues, but just last year I remember reading about a few basic regulations that were hung up somewhere, and that some regulations that had been approved weren’t yet being implemented. 

There are definitely companies who have higher food and manufacturing standards than the required minimums. And I think it’s reasonable that some of the companies with a bad reputation a few years ago would make changes, and it’s fair to reevaluate. It’s just notoriously difficult to wade through this information, partly because of the labeling and marketing practices. And everyone has their own personal tolerances as to what is important to them in a diet. However, I do feel like I have to be more careful choosing dog food than I do choosing human food for my family, because of the way the system is right now.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

I think that there is a lot of confusion and misinformation about dog food and it is very difficult for us as consumers to know what is best. We all love our dogs and of course want to feel that we are feeding them the best that we can. However, sometimes fierce brand loyalties and preconceived notions get in our way. For example, I used to think that a raw homemade diet is best, however I have become more open minded to other forms of feeding and realize that there are pitfalls with any diet. I try to keep an open mind as to what to look for in dog food. For example, I brought up the subject of synthetic vitamins and minerals as an example. And I was impressed that two kibble manufacturers are implementing this. So do I want to dig my heels in and ignore this? Or be a bit more open minded about it? I think researchers are learning more and more about dog food, not only what is in the food but the bioavailability to the dog. I choose to have an open mind about the latest research, but sometimes fierce brand loyalties and preconceived notions get in the way. For example, I think some people will fight to the death to defend their brand and this can blind them to the latest research.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

It is so hard to find a good food made by a reputable company. I've been on the hunt to find a sensitive stomach food that does not contain chicken or poultry since I think he has issues with it.
He has been eating salmon and sweetpotato grainfree. However, the vet says that dogs with tummy issues need to have grain. And maybe the salmon does sit well with him.
It's day 5 of the meds and the horrible prescription food that contains chicken, pork and turkey. I think he is worse instead of better. Vet again tomorrow.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

There's someone on this forum that use to work for a Dog Store that sold various dog foods. She LOVED!! Purina Pro saying that's what she fed her Havanese and that it was good dog food. 

I don't know anything about Purina Pro but at lease one person on the forum thinks it's super good.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Tere said:


> It is so hard to find a good food made by a reputable company. I've been on the hunt to find a sensitive stomach food that does not contain chicken or poultry since I think he has issues with it.
> He has been eating salmon and sweetpotato grainfree. However, the vet says that dogs with tummy issues need to have grain. And maybe the salmon does sit well with him.
> It's day 5 of the meds and the horrible prescription food that contains chicken, pork and turkey. I think he is worse instead of better. Vet again tomorrow.


How you looked at Honest Kitchen which is FDA human grade dehydrated food? They have both whole grain and grain free food. White Fish along with the typical meat foods.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

mudpuppymama said:


> I think that there is a lot of confusion and misinformation about dog food and it is very difficult for us as consumers to know what is best. We all love our dogs and of course want to feel that we are feeding them the best that we can. However, sometimes fierce brand loyalties and preconceived notions get in our way. For example, I used to think that a raw homemade diet is best, however I have become more open minded to other forms of feeding and realize that there are pitfalls with any diet. I try to keep an open mind as to what to look for in dog food. For example, I brought up the subject of synthetic vitamins and minerals as an example. And I was impressed that two kibble manufacturers are implementing this. So do I want to dig my heels in and ignore this? Or be a bit more open minded about it? I think researchers are learning more and more about dog food, not only what is in the food but the bioavailability to the dog. I choose to have an open mind about the latest research, but sometimes fierce brand loyalties and preconceived notions get in the way. For example, I think some people will fight to the death to defend their brand and this can blind them to the latest research.


Absolutely. Right now I don't have a problem with the concept of synthetic ingredients (and I know this was just an example you used, I'm just borrowing it) but it doesn't mean I will always feel this way. Or that I won't come to believe certain synthetic products are problematic. On the other hand, changes in technology could also improve synthetic manufacturing and make some products more reliable than they are now. Or the weight of harvesting natural products vs. recreating them in a lab and all that both entail could change how I view these things. I completely agree it's about being open and continuing to learn. And not making these issues all or nothing. Things change.


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## BoosDad (Mar 8, 2020)

Boo does take Purina ProPlan Fortiflora, a probiotic. From everything I have read, it seems to a high quality product. However, I would be hesitant to use any of their dog food products, given the history of recalls and low quality fillers used.


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

Ricky Ricardo said:


> Lots of recalls, I presume caused by poor quality control.
> 
> Ricky's Popi


Pro Plan has only been recalled once since 2009, and it was one SKU of a wet food.


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## KarMar (Jan 14, 2016)

I shamelessly LOVE Pro Plan. The research behind it is incredible, it is one of only a handful of foods formulated by boarded veterinary nutritionists. I used to be one of those staunchly against it and thought it was crap with a capital C, but the proof is in the putting and my dogs have done better on it than any of the large handful of other brands they have been on.


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## 31818 (Oct 29, 2014)

KarMar said:


> I shamelessly LOVE Pro Plan. The research behind it is incredible, it is one of only a handful of foods formulated by boarded veterinary nutritionists. I used to be one of those staunchly against it and thought it was crap with a capital C, but the proof is in the putting and my dogs have done better on it than any of the large handful of other brands they have been on.


Feed your dog whatever you like because you are ultimately responsible for their health. I have used a pet food that my Ricky has been thriving on and loves for years and it is not Purina. Maybe he would thrive on Pro Plan too, but I am not willing to take that chance.

Purina was purchased by Nestle Corp. about 20 years ago. I believe that Nestle/Purina is one of the largest pet food companies today (if not the largest). During the intervening years, the Purina pet food group has had several recalls both mandatory and voluntary. A brief history is recounted in this article: https://www.petful.com/brands/purina/

There are a lot of good choices for dog food. Purina is not on my personal list of preferred dog food for a number of reasons. The OP should do their own research, talk to their trusted Vet, and make a decision for what is best for your dog.

Ricky's Popi


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Our first Havanese were raised on Pro Plan, before so many choices of fancy foods came out. That was in the late '90's. They didn't live their whole lives on it, but some number of years.

I can't honestly say that those dogs suffered any ill effects from it, and they lived as long, healthy lives as the ones these days do.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

I choose other foods for my dogs that I believe are better for them. I have one dog for whom Purina is not an option as he cannot tolerate some of the ingredients in it, and his needs tend to direct most dog food choices in our house! But I know enough professional dog people with beautiful, healthy, 15-17 year old Havanese (and other breeds) eating Pro Plan to believe that it is such a terrible thing. 

I tend to stay out of dog food debates because there are as many opinions as there are people on the forum!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

krandall said:


> I tend to stay out of dog food debates because there are as many opinions as there are people on the forum!


Smart woman...

I should follow this advice but I am not as smart as Karen.

I just wanted to add one thing to consider when feeding a corn based food. Corn is heavily sprayed with glysophate and is more prone to aflatoxins than other ingredients. Just something to consider. I am not saying the alternatives are not without problems but it is something to think about when choosing a food.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Tom King said:


> Our first Havanese were raised on Pro Plan, before so many choices of fancy foods came out. That was in the late '90's. They didn't live their whole lives on it, but some number of years.
> 
> I can't honestly say that those dogs suffered any ill effects from it, and they lived as long, healthy lives as the ones these days do.


The only problem is that the use of glysophate on corn, wheat and soy has skyrocketed since the 90's. This could have some impact on dogs consuming this food nowadays, even if the formula is the same.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

mudpuppymama said:


> The only problem is that the use of glysophate on corn, wheat and soy has skyrocketed since the 90's. This could have some impact on dogs consuming this food nowadays, even if the formula is the same.


I looked into glysophate in pet food a bit more and it looks like it is in grain free food also. I thought the food with grain would have more but I guess glysophate is pretty much everywhere in the food chain for pets and people. Anyway, I just wanted to clarify.

https://www.purrrfectlyholistic.com/the-truth-about-glyphosate-exposure-pet-food/


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## furfan (Nov 24, 2008)

Recently, our vet wanted us to switch from the grain free kibble to food that does have grain. So I checked Dog Food Advisor and Purina Pro is one of the grain-inclusive food that they recommend. A while ago, I signed up for this website to get recall notices about dog foods. Also, our vet told me a while ago that the homemade food we were giving our dogs didn't have all the vitamins they need and she strongly suggested we switch to a commercial food.

https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/


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## rhonlap (Jul 17, 2020)

My 8 yr old lab eats Purina Pro Plan Adult Sensitive Skin & Stomach Salmon & Rice, my 8 month old hav Jax loves it , when he refused to eat his food , I ended up switching him to the puppy version. He is thriving!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

furfan said:


> Recently, our vet wanted us to switch from the grain free kibble to food that does have grain. So I checked Dog Food Advisor and Purina Pro is one of the grain-inclusive food that they recommend. A while ago, I signed up for this website to get recall notices about dog foods. Also, our vet told me a while ago that the homemade food we were giving our dogs didn't have all the vitamins they need and she strongly suggested we switch to a commercial food.
> 
> https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/


A homemade diet that is balanced can be very good. If unbalanced, it is not. If someone really wants to feed homemade, they could consult with a canine nutritionist and learn how. Otherwise, commercial would be the way to go. It is not good to be guessing at it. On the other hand, if someone really has the desire to learn I think they should be encouraged and I wish vets would refer those people to a nutritionist. I have been feeding homemade for 11 years. The unknown is always scary. Once you learn, you are no longer scared. But you also need to have the desire and want to put the extra effort into it.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

rhonlap said:


> My 8 yr old lab eats Purina Pro Plan Adult Sensitive Skin & Stomach Salmon & Rice, my 8 month old hav Jax loves it , when he refused to eat his food , I ended up switching him to the puppy version. He is thriving!


That was one of the foods I was considering for my Shadow. My vet feels that he should eat grain. Do you feed the dry food or the canned?


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## rhonlap (Jul 17, 2020)

We feed dry, both dogs also get a probiotic.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Tere said:


> That was one of the foods I was considering for my Shadow. My vet feels that he should eat grain. Do you feed the dry food or the canned?


How is Shadow doing? Wondering too if the vet ran some blood tests to check overall health.

Something in his current food may be the problem. Definitely worth trying something else IMO. I still wonder if the menhaden fish meal in the food you feed could have exthoxyquin as a preservative which can cause problems. Not sure if you are feeding Victor Yukon River Canine, but menhaden fish meal is the number one ingredient in that. So that means lots of preservative. Just out of curiosity, I called Viktor to ask if the fish meal they use is preserved with ethoxyquin. I am not getting warm fuzzies. At first they said no they do not add it. However, the SUPPLIER typically adds it. So I asked what the supplier uses. It HAS to be preserved with something or will go rancid fast.They do not know and are going to get back to me...


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

Shadow seems to be doing better, no vomitting or runny poop and he is off the medication. He is still eating the Hills ID food and I am getting him the Purina Sensitive Stomach food today despite all the hate. It's Salmon and rice. 
There is probably not a dog food available locally with grain and limited ingredients (other than chicken which he has issues with). 
His behavior is off though and he is not drinking water but the Hills ID food is mostly water. He seems sad among other things like scratching alot(might be the chicken).


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Tere said:


> Shadow seems to be doing better, no vomitting or runny poop and he is off the medication. He is still eating the Hills ID food and I am getting him the Purina Sensitive Stomach food today despite all the hate. It's Salmon and rice.
> There is probably not a dog food available locally with grain and limited ingredients (other than chicken which he has issues with).
> His behavior is off though and he is not drinking water but the Hills ID food is mostly water. He seems sad among other things like scratching alot(might be the chicken).


Glad he is doing better!


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## Ltartof (Sep 17, 2018)

Our guy does great on Purina Pro Plan, we went through a number of more boutique foods, and they never agreed with this stomach. He always got diarrhea. We do PPP Small Breed adult, he is great and loves it. We had a dog that lived to 20 on Purina One, the stuff that you buy in the grocery store! It is individual, and likely based some on the food styles of the owner too... I have been known to eat processed food, take a daily, synthetic vitamin and use medication when needed.


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## NotAMuggle (Dec 4, 2020)

If one were to pick a food that WSAVA recommends, would you go with Royal Canin, Iams, Eukanuba, Hills, or Purina? Out of those what do you think?


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

It seems we often judge a dog’s health by length of life, however quality of life is sometimes overlooked. People live very long lives these days, however many people suffer for years with chronic diseases like dementia, heart disease, diabetes and cancer. The same is true for animals. Some have chronic allergies or gastrointestinal issues for example. I am not saying that Purina Pro Plan causes chronic illness and some people/animals are definitely more prone to certain diseases than others, however quality of life is definitely something to think about and seems to be overlooked. There are also short term and long term effects of diet. Some people smoke their entire lives and never get lung cancer. And some die of lung cancer who never smoked. Most of us only have a few animals in our life time so hard to draw major conclusions based upon our personal experience. Nutrition is important but there are other factors that play into health as well. I do think it is interesting to hear how dogs are doing on different diets, but I am not sure any of us (including myself) can draw major conclusions from what works for a few individual dogs (including mine).


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

Short lived recovery for poor Shadow. 
Diarrhea is back. He is back on Metronodazole tonight after a poopy crate.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I really hope that new food helps, assuming you haven’t started it yet.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I really hope that new food helps, assuming you haven't started it yet.


I had started the transition on Friday with a small amount of the new food-10% of new, 90% ID for one meal. Sat. & Sun. were the same 10/90.
Looking back, I think it was coming back before the new food. He finished the Metronidazole on Wed., was still eating the ID. Friday morning, we got up and he ran to the grass. Not diarrhea but too soft. 
My vet is off Monday & Tuesday. The office is open but he is not there. I restarted the Metron and the ID.
Not sure what to do next. Very sad for the little guy.


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## BoosDad (Mar 8, 2020)

Tere said:


> I had started the transition on Friday with a small amount of the new food-10% of new, 90% ID for one meal. Sat. & Sun. were the same 10/90.
> Looking back, I think it was coming back before the new food. He finished the Metronidazole on Wed., was still eating the ID. Friday morning, we got up and he ran to the grass. Not diarrhea but too soft.
> My vet is off Monday & Tuesday. The office is open but he is not there. I restarted the Metron and the ID.
> Not sure what to do next. Very sad for the little guy.


You might want to have him worked up for IBD, in case it is a chronic condition. Severe diarrhea can dehydrate little dogs quickly. I hope that you find the answer, and he is feeling better soon.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

BoosDad said:


> You might want to have him worked up for IBD, in case it is a chronic condition. Severe diarrhea can dehydrate little dogs quickly. I hope that you find the answer, and he is feeling better soon.


Do you know how IBD is diagnosed? 
He does not seem to be dehydrated? His gums look good and he ate 2 small meals last night and drank a bit of water.


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## BoosDad (Mar 8, 2020)

Tere said:


> Do you know how IBD is diagnosed?
> He does not seem to be dehydrated? His gums look good and he ate 2 small meals last night and drank a bit of water.


IBD is a rule out diagnosis, when dogs have chronic gastrointestinal issues like diarrhea, vomiting, constipation, or loss of appetite. Of course, a lot of other things could be causing these issues. So, those things need to be ruled out. Boo's diagnosis involved blood work, including B12 testing (as it is low in IBD dogs because of poor absorption), fecal testing, x-rays, and an abdominal ultrasound. Boo was given a presumptive diagnosis, based on this testing, at age 17. To get a more definitive diagnosis, he would have needed a biopsy, contraindicated for senior dogs. He sees a specialist, who has been following him since July 2020. Boo is doing well with treatment. Of course, your issues may be totally different. It just took me years to get this diagnosis, because vets do not seem to explore issues like IBD that well, at least in Southern California. I hope that you guys are able to resolve the diarrhea issue, and it is just something simple.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Tere said:


> Do you know how IBD is diagnosed?
> He does not seem to be dehydrated? His gums look good and he ate 2 small meals last night and drank a bit of water.


Sorry Shadow is still having issues. I wonder if the vet did some blood work on him just to rule out any general health issues. Also wondering if the vet can recommend some sort of temporary very bland diet to allow his system to settle down. For example, I read an article by Karen Becker recommending a bland diet of turkey and sweet potato just temporarily. She says turkey is very low fat and usually easily digested. Anyway, wondering if you could ask the vet about something like this. Once the canine digestive system gets worked up it sometimes takes awhile to settle down. Some also recommend fasting a day. Again, please consult your vet but just throwing out a few ideas.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

I just returned from the vet's office, picking up more canned Hill$ ID. This is what they recommend and all that he has eaten for the last 10 days. 1 can a day. It is a bland diet. Except for the couple days, I added in the Sensitive Stomach food. I asked if he could have boiled chicken breast and rice...no was the answer. I made it last night so it will go in the garbage.
I'm sure more tests will be next. Probably $5000. worth, I will guess. The bloodwork, xrays are up next, I am sure.
My brother is similar to Shadow. He goes to dr. after dr., test after test...no answers. More meds.
I am ready to give up on him. Between the motion sickness, his anxiety over separation and now this, I am exhausted. He was very upset that I left for an hour to get the food. Apparently, I am only allowed afternoon outings.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Tere said:


> I just returned from the vet's office, picking up more canned Hill$ ID. This is what they recommend and all that he has eaten for the last 10 days. 1 can a day. It is a bland diet. Except for the couple days, I added in the Sensitive Stomach food. I asked if he could have boiled chicken breast and rice...no was the answer. I made it last night so it will go in the garbage.
> I'm sure more tests will be next. Probably $5000. worth, I will guess. The bloodwork, xrays are up next, I am sure.
> My brother is similar to Shadow. He goes to dr. after dr., test after test...no answers. More meds.
> I am ready to give up on him. Between the motion sickness, his anxiety over separation and now this, I am exhausted. He was very upset that I left for an hour to get the food. Apparently, I am only allowed afternoon outings.


Having a sick animal is one of the most frustrating things we can experience but please do not give up on Shadow. Note that metronidazole does have side effects. Sometimes we have to use the medicine to resolve a problem but it can cause other problems. Then switching foods even if good ones can further set off his already fired up system. He may need some adjustment time.

Side effects to metronidazole may include nausea, vomiting, regurgitation, and drooling.

Blood work is not that expensive and a good place to start. Just wondering too if the vet could recommend a different probiotic if you suspect the other one was causing problems. Sometimes things take time to heal too. The food allergy testing is not all that expensive and may be helpful. It could just be is has problems with something in the food. Hang in there Tere! I really hope they get to root cause soon.

Just wanted to add that if the vet is not getting to root cause, I would try to find another vet. Suppression of symptoms and not trying to get to root cause sends me running.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Tere said:


> I just returned from the vet's office, picking up more canned Hill$ ID. This is what they recommend and all that he has eaten for the last 10 days. 1 can a day. It is a bland diet. Except for the couple days, I added in the Sensitive Stomach food. I asked if he could have boiled chicken breast and rice...no was the answer. I made it last night so it will go in the garbage.
> I'm sure more tests will be next. Probably $5000. worth, I will guess. The bloodwork, xrays are up next, I am sure.
> My brother is similar to Shadow. He goes to dr. after dr., test after test...no answers. More meds.
> I am ready to give up on him. Between the motion sickness, his anxiety over separation and now this, I am exhausted. He was very upset that I left for an hour to get the food. Apparently, I am only allowed afternoon outings.


How do you feel about your vet?

The stomach issues with our Havanese aren't exactly the same, but I still feel my experience was very different. From the second time I took him in with stomach issue, when things were kind of confusing and up in the air, the vet gave me very clear options with honest costs and the pros and cons to both. There were a couple of paths we could take, but I felt like the paths were much more clear than a lot of the waiting you've been given. For one thing, if we didn't see improvement in 48 hours, we were told to bring him back and it was considered a follow up. I can't imagine being told to feed something after 10 days of already having intermittent diarrhea, and I don't understand the benefit of continuing the medication he was given if he doesn't have giardia. I also knew approximately what the total cost of the most likely tests would be if we did have to do all of them, but I felt like the vet intentionally planned them in the order most likely to resolve the situation first, so it didn't feel like I was facing potentially endless tests unless they were truly needed. It's true that digestive issues can sometimes be slow to figure out, it was for us, but that's because it would temporarily improve (for much longer than what you've described, for weeks). When problems came up and the vet recommended a certain action, we could see whether or not it was working quickly.

Definitely not based in veterinary knowledge, but if he's not dehydrated and exhibiting other symptoms, I would be ready to start the reflux medication. It's the least expensive change and I don't see how the side effects could possibly hurt more than him throwing up all of the time right now. Even if it's a bandaid, if it does help, it gives you both some comfort and relief while you evaluate what tests you are prepared to pursue. If it doesn't help, then you have more information, but it's still less expensive than probably any test the vet would do next. You don't have to stop there, but if it works it can give you time to seek a second opinion, or do allergy testing, or just make these decisions without the pressure of emergency visits. I don't know anything about the actual reflux medication, regarding the cost or the intensity of it, so maybe my opinion would change, but I don't remember this being a medication that causes seizures or really serious side effects.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Tere said:


> I had started the transition on Friday with a small amount of the new food-10% of new, 90% ID for one meal. Sat. & Sun. were the same 10/90.
> Looking back, I think it was coming back before the new food. He finished the Metronidazole on Wed., was still eating the ID. Friday morning, we got up and he ran to the grass. Not diarrhea but too soft.
> My vet is off Monday & Tuesday. The office is open but he is not there. I restarted the Metron and the ID.
> Not sure what to do next. Very sad for the little guy.


Well I Googled your medication and my "Expert Google Medical Advisor" says it is to treat a hard to treat nasty infection called Trichonmoniasis.

Based on my very limited knowledge: I wondering why you think dog food is causing the problem and not the infection?

Did you recently adopt or purchase this little dog? Or, did he some how contract the infection while you've owned him?


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

I realize I’m completely biased because of my own experience, but so many of the things you’ve said to me suggest a food sensitivity. Did your vet say he doesn’t think it is? Probiotics are more likely to just not work at all, for them to cause a problem instead of an improvement suggests an ingredient in the chew, like you said. The fact that he has trouble switching food suggests a food allergy to me, too. But, I don’t understand why the vet would keep him on the same food and medication if he’s still having diarrhea unless he really thought it was something else. 

When my puppy was on food that bothered him, he didn’t have continuous diarrhea all of the time, which is what I thought a food allergy would always look like. That’s why it was hard to pinpoint, along with the fact that other things were contributing as well.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Mikki said:


> Well I Googled your medication and my "Expert Google Medical Advisor" says it is to treat a hard to treat nasty infection called Trichonmoniasis.


Metronidazole is also used for giardia, but I thought Tere said the test came back negative.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Metronidazole is also used for giardia, but I thought Tere said the test came back negative.


I'm confused. The dog is being medically treated for some type of illness but the concern started out about asking about Purina Pro and has been focused on food allergies?

Is this a recent dog or one that Tere has had for a long while who has had food and anxiety issues?


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

This thread Tere started to ask about Purina was a follow up of sorts. She posted a thread previously about Shadow having trouble and trying to sort out if it was reflux, a food issue, or something else, and has been to the vet a lot lately. Maybe it was in the other thread where she mentioned they thought he had giardia in the midst of all of this and started the medication but the test came back negative. Between this thread and the others, the vet recommended reflux meds at one point and a probiotic was introduced. 

Tere, I really feel for you right now, I’m sorry you and Shadow are going through this.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

I wonder if Giardia was actually found in the fecal test. My understanding is...

“A routine fecal flotation test may fail to detect these tiny cysts, which are shed inconsistently in the feces, and which often require a special zinc sulfate flotation solution for detection. Occasionally, the parasites may be seen on a direct smear of the feces.”

One of my neighbor’s dogs had a suspected case of Giardia and she said that never actually confirmed it for sure but they treated him for it and he did get better. It would be great if the vet could actually confirm it somehow.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

All I know is that I paid $55. for "giardia antigen/float T808" and the vet said it was negative. I did not get a report.

I did read that often vets will treat for giardia even if the test is negative. I think Metronidazole is commonly prescribed for any vomitting/diarrhea issue. 

I hate to return for another appointment where the parade of testing will be forced before any further treatment is given. The car ride for a very motion sick dog is crappy. Paying for tests that probably will show nothing is crappy.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Tere said:


> All I know is that I paid $55. for "giardia antigen/float T808" and the vet said it was negative. I did not get a report.
> 
> I did read that often vets will treat for giardia even if the test is negative. I think Metronidazole is commonly prescribed for any vomitting/diarrhea issue.
> 
> I hate to return for another appointment where the parade of testing will be forced before any further treatment is given. The car ride for a very motion sick dog is crappy. Paying for tests that probably will show nothing is crappy.


I don't remember it taking long to see improvement from Metronidazole, so maybe an improvement is right around the corner. Hopefully he'll feel better after the treatment.

This is definitely beyond my experience, and I'm sure I'm projecting because I relate, and I'm not actively trying to second guess your vet if you feel comfortable there. I just know in humans we no longer prescribe antibiotics if we aren't sure there is a specific reason, because of antibiotic resistance and the side effects. That's why I wondered why they were still giving it when the test was negative, and the symptoms have been on and off for a while. I understand not wanting to take him back when you really aren't getting answers, and blindly testing doesn't seem helpful. I hope you both can get some relief soon.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Tere said:


> All I know is that I paid $55. for "giardia antigen/float T808" and the vet said it was negative. I did not get a report.
> 
> I did read that often vets will treat for giardia even if the test is negative. I think Metronidazole is commonly prescribed for any vomitting/diarrhea issue.
> 
> I hate to return for another appointment where the parade of testing will be forced before any further treatment is given. The car ride for a very motion sick dog is crappy. Paying for tests that probably will show nothing is crappy.


I personally would prefer that the vet take some extra time upfront and make a sincere effort to get to root cause before trying different things, particularly drugs which have potential side effects. As long as the vet is keeping open and honest communication with me about the approach being taken to get to root cause, I am good with that and much prefer it. It may take a little more time up front but "experimenting" without knowing root cause can delay healing and possibly cause more problems. Hang in there!


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Tere said:


> All I know is that I paid $55. for "giardia antigen/float T808" and the vet said it was negative. I did not get a report.
> 
> I did read that often vets will treat for giardia even if the test is negative. I think Metronidazole is commonly prescribed for any vomitting/diarrhea issue.
> 
> I hate to return for another appointment where the parade of testing will be forced before any further treatment is given. The car ride for a very motion sick dog is crappy. Paying for tests that probably will show nothing is crappy.


I just curious of when this all started: The anxiety, motion sickness, food allergies and diarrhea. Did Shadow have anxiety, motion sickness and food allergies before he got sick with diarrhea?

It seems there are lots of comments about food allergies and I wonder if the problem is that Shadow has an infection that is not related to the food and other issues. Maybe he had food issues before getting sick???

That's my confusion.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

Mikki, I got Shadow at 10 months, rehomed by the breeder. He was sold and returned in 2 weeks. Then sold again. He was boarded with the breeder for most of his next 7 months, only going to that home for a couple weeks here and there. I don't know much of his first 10 months except that he had never been left alone without having at least other dogs with him.
What I do know is that he came to me with several issues. 
Motion sickness-he got sick on every car ride with the breeder. I have tried everything and nothing has helped really. 2 miles is when it starts. He is very happy to go for a ride and doesn't appear anxious.
So much to tell about Shadow. I do think he has food sensitivities. This bout of diarrhea is probably due to that. His stomach is sensitive. When I got him, he was pooping 7 times a day, every time he went outside, he would poop. He was eating puppy food. My vet said to switch to adult food. I selected a similar food with chicken/rice. Didn't help. Then it was Grainfree salmon & sweet potato. That seemed to fix his problem.
I do wonder if these issues were the reason he was returned twice. I have called the breeder. No response. I know that she was having health issues maybe 2 years ago that have probably gotten worse. 

At almost 4 years, he is very sweet natured, stubborn like a little mule, loves everyone. The current diarrhea issue started 2 weeks ago. One day, he was fine til 3pm. Next day, better. Then the next day, it started. We went to the vet. This is not something that has been ongoing for an extended time.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Tere said:


> Mikki, I got Shadow at 10 months, rehomed by the breeder. He was sold and returned in 2 weeks. Then sold again. He was boarded with the breeder for most of his next 7 months, only going to that home for a couple weeks here and there. I don't know much of his first 10 months except that he had never been left alone without having at least other dogs with him.
> What I do know is that he came to me with several issues.
> Motion sickness-he got sick on every car ride with the breeder. I have tried everything and nothing has helped really. 2 miles is when it starts. He is very happy to go for a ride and doesn't appear anxious.
> So much to tell about Shadow. I do think he has food sensitivities. This bout of diarrhea is probably due to that. His stomach is sensitive. When I got him, he was pooping 7 times a day, every time he went outside, he would poop. He was eating puppy food. My vet said to switch to adult food. I selected a similar food with chicken/rice. Didn't help. Then it was Grainfree salmon & sweet potato. That seemed to fix his problem.
> ...


Sounds to me like the diarrhea issue is a separate problem unrelated to his early start as a puppy since he's now 4-years old. At this time, it's hard to separate what's causing what problem. The medication is treating some type of infection or illness. He might have an intolerance to the medication if things have gotten worst with treatment - or maybe it takes more time for the medication to work.

*Based on my understanding of what you've told me: If it were me, I would not experiment trying new foods because no matter what you feed Shadow he's going to have digestive issues if he's sick. After you fix that problem then you can work on trying different foods if you need to. I'd switch him back on the food recommended by your Vet or back to what he was eating before this issue developed since you know he tolerated his previous food.
*
Vets and other medical degreed people often have to work through symptoms, trying different treatments to figure out what's going on. You've only had one vet visit. Your vet has just gotten started. I assume your happy with your Vet. I doubt it's going to cost thousands of dollars to figure out a diagnosis. After that you can decide how far to go on medical treatments.

*Personality Issues unrelated to this post...as a side note:* My daughter has a Golden-doodle whose start in life is similar to Shadows. Lucy was returned to the breeder after several weeks. Our daughter, Nicole, purchased Lucy and wasn't able to pick her up for another month. I believe Lucy was five or six months old by the time Nicole got her. The breeder was seriously ill when Lucy's litter was born.

I believe Lucy was returned because she is innately an extremely Shy and Fearful dog and to make matters worse she lacked any socialization due to the breeders illness. During those important socialization periods she was left alone to hide under her blank in a crate.

After getting Lucy, frustrated and concerned Nicole talked to her Vet about returning her to the breeder for that same reason. Lucy would completely cover herself up and hide under the blanket in her crate. Had to be physically removed from the crate to go outside. Appeared to not want anything to do with people. She's never played tug of war or fetch or wanted to interacted with the kids. She was terrified to go outside during daylight hours. The Vet discouraged Nicole from doing that. So she kept Lucy and has dealt those issues. Nicole remove her from a crate and put Lucy in her bed and slept with her, which helped Lucy learn to bond with Nicole.

Lucy, also, had motion sickness in a car. We routinely travel long distances to a vacation home in the mountains and to visit a son which are 10 to 14 hour trips. Poor sick Lucy laid with her head under the sick on the floor of the back seat. She was given medication. Eventually, she over came car sickness. Because of her personality we could leave her in a kennel and didn't have anyone to stay with her. Besides a stranger would have made things worse.

Lucy still has to have her head hidden under a table 24/7. But, she has gotten better and vastly improved after we got Patti our Havanese three years ago. Lucy now will come to me for a pat on the head and and will take a treat from my hand. Lucy plays with Patti for short periods of time. Patti can be a pest. >


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

What I'm trying to say is that I "think" he may be sensitive to certain ingredients. His puppy food, the 1st. one I tried and the Hills ID that the vet insists on have a couple common elements - chicken and rice.  
The diarrhea is controlled by the Metronidazole medication but returns once he is off it. This makes me wonder if the Hills ID that the vet insists he eats is the problem. Or it could be that he needs to be on the meds. longer or maybe a different med.
The food he ate was salmon and sweet potato, grainfree. Vet feels that he should be eating grain (since he has a slight heart murmur) and for digestion. And that Salmon may not be the best choice since it can be oily and can cause stones. So he does not think Shadow shoud go back on his regular food. 
There has only been one visit but 4 discussions about this. I don't think Shadow is all that sick but something is bothering his little belly. Each car ride churns it up. He loves being there despite the puking in the car! He is a very social dog.
That is unfortunate about your daughter's dog. The early months are so important. I think Shadow missed the car riding lessons and the being alone lessons. Other than that, he is quite well adjusted, not shy at all or timid. 
I so wish he was a better car rider. If covid is ever over, I would love to drive up to see my only family in Canada. Most of them haven't met him yet. But he would have to be in the car for 25 hours of driving each way and everyday while we were there.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

As an outside observer (somewhat overly invested because I identify with some of your experience) the conclusions you’ve drawn seem reasonable. It sounds like the vet is also giving you reasonable rationales for avoiding specific ingredients, but there are lots of options between chicken and salmon, with and without grain. Maybe when this is resolved there is a different protein in that same Pro Plan line that will work better that your vet will be more open to. I’m also personally curious how vets are managing dogs that haven’t tolerated grain well when they want to be cautious, such as with Shadow’s heart murmur. That seems like it could be tricky. 

At one point I looked into a consultation with a nutritionist and while it wasn’t cheap, it was less than our vet visit. I don’t know what is available in your area, but maybe it would be helpful.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

I believe Molly had some digestive issues with her dog and decided to first try a limited ingredient diet before resorting to Hill’s. I believe she said that a limited diet along with probiotics solved the problem. The more ingredients in a food the harder it is to determine what is causing the problem. Turkey could be a good protein to try too in case chicken is the problem. I believe Karen has Kodi on limited ingredient turkey by Nature’s Variety. Just a thought.


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Tere said:


> What I'm trying to say is that I "think" he may be sensitive to certain ingredients. His puppy food, the 1st. one I tried and the Hills ID that the vet insists on have a couple common elements - chicken and rice.
> The diarrhea is controlled by the Metronidazole medication but returns once he is off it. This makes me wonder if the Hills ID that the vet insists he eats is the problem. Or it could be that he needs to be on the meds. longer or maybe a different med.
> The food he ate was salmon and sweet potato, grainfree. Vet feels that he should be eating grain (since he has a slight heart murmur) and for digestion. And that Salmon may not be the best choice since it can be oily and can cause stones. So he does not think Shadow shoud go back on his regular food.
> There has only been one visit but 4 discussions about this. I don't think Shadow is all that sick but something is bothering his little belly. Each car ride churns it up. He loves being there despite the puking in the car! He is a very social dog.
> ...


Lucy has come a long way and is a very gentle and sweet dog. Lucy at 70lbs gave Patti Puppy lots of PuppyPasses. Below is is Patti teaching Lucy how to play. :grin2:

Fingers crossed the Metronidazole medication cures Shadows diarrhea Soon!


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

Patti is adorable. I love her cute little body and hairdo! She is just a little bundle of love!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mudpuppymama said:


> I believe Molly had some digestive issues with her dog and decided to first try a limited ingredient diet before resorting to Hill's. I believe she said that a limited diet along with probiotics solved the problem. The more ingredients in a food the harder it is to determine what is causing the problem. Turkey could be a good protein to try too in case chicken is the problem. I believe Karen has Kodi on limited ingredient turkey by Nature's Variety. Just a thought.


I do, but it is a grain free food.

I would like to point out the The whole "grain free food" issue is in reference to dilated cardiomyopathy, which is an exceedingly rare problem in Havanese, and probably not what is going on in a dog with a murmur. But there are plenty of other foods with turkey as the protein that do contain grains if that's what you want. I'm pretty sure that Nature's Variety makes one, actually.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> Lucy has come a long way and is a very gentle and sweet dog. Lucy at 70lbs gave Patti Puppy lots of PuppyPasses. Below is is Patti teaching Lucy how to play. :grin2:
> 
> Fingers crossed the Metronidazole medication cures Shadows diarrhea Soon!


What an adorable picture!!!


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

krandall said:


> I do, but it is a grain free food.
> 
> I would like to point out the The whole "grain free food" issue is in reference to dilated cardiomyopathy, which is an exceedingly rare problem in Havanese, and probably not what is going on in a dog with a murmur. But there are plenty of other foods with turkey as the protein that do contain grains if that's what you want. I'm pretty sure that Nature's Variety makes one, actually.


I'm glad every time it isn't a blanket recommendation against grain, even if it's not a particularly nuanced response. It's definitely worth bringing up with the vet, knowing he did well on grain free in the past.

Among breeds prone to dilated cardiomyopathy, I wonder how many people were feeding grain free to manage a sensitive stomach and how that has been handled since.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

I think that my vet's opposition to grain free is that most grain free have peas in them? He also thinks that Salmon might be too oily for the little belly. So far the requirements are grain inclusive, not salmon or chicken, no peas. Thanks, Karen, I will check out Natures Variety.

Honestly, although I like my vet when we are at the office and he is close for the motion sick Shadow, getting answers after the visit is tough. The staff is so rushed, they are super busy. With Covid, they have shortened the office hours a lot so they are open 4 less hours a day. When I have called, it is "can you hold" constantly. Go in and the phone is ringing constantly. I never get a complete answer to my question. It comes in dribs and drabs.
I have considered changing vets but the other vets that are close are not allowing people in the office due to covid. You get to speak on the phone after all is said and done. So switching/finding a new vet is going to be tough at this time although I am considering it. If not for the motion sickness, I would have more options maybe. The motion sickness is a huge PITA.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> I'm glad every time it isn't a blanket recommendation against grain, even if it's not a particularly nuanced response. It's definitely worth bringing up with the vet, knowing he did well on grain free in the past.
> 
> Among breeds prone to dilated cardiomyopathy, I wonder how many people were feeding grain free to manage a sensitive stomach and how that has been handled since.


I really DON'T think most people were doing it to manage sensitive stomachs. It just became "the thing to do", without any real understanding of what potential problems legumes MIGHT cause. It is CLEAR that in dogs that HAVE DCM, taking them OFF grain free foods can immediately reverse their symptoms. SO there IS some connection. But that does NOT mean that it will CAUSE the problem in an otherwise healthy dog. It's like extrapolating that if salt is bad for people with high blood pressure, we should ALL strictly avoid salt. We now know that salt does not CAUSE high blood pressure, it's just bad for people who have it. (and NO salt is REALLY bad too!)

Since getting ready to breed Panda, I've learned more, and I now know that a more general, and well-documented problem with grain-free foods is that the high levels of plant-based progesterone in the legume-based foods can interfere with the bitch cycling. So it has reproductive implications if you have breeding stock. I know that's not a BIG concern in this group, but a bit of information to keep tucked away in the back of your minds.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Tere said:


> I think that my vet's opposition to grain free is that most grain free have peas in them? He also thinks that Salmon might be too oily for the little belly. So far the requirements are grain inclusive, not salmon or chicken, no peas. Thanks, Karen, I will check out Natures Variety.
> 
> Honestly, although I like my vet when we are at the office and he is close for the motion sick Shadow, getting answers after the visit is tough. The staff is so rushed, they are super busy. With Covid, they have shortened the office hours a lot so they are open 4 less hours a day. When I have called, it is "can you hold" constantly. Go in and the phone is ringing constantly. I never get a complete answer to my question. It comes in dribs and drabs.
> I have considered changing vets but the other vets that are close are not allowing people in the office due to covid. You get to speak on the phone after all is said and done. So switching/finding a new vet is going to be tough at this time although I am considering it. If not for the motion sickness, I would have more options maybe. The motion sickness is a huge PITA.


Could you ask for a "consult" appointment? Say you'll pay for the time, but you just want to set aside a period of time to actually TALK to the vet? For me, it would be well worth the cost!


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Tere said:


> I think that my vet's opposition to grain free is that most grain free have peas in them? He also thinks that Salmon might be too oily for the little belly. So far the requirements are grain inclusive, not salmon or chicken, no peas. Thanks, Karen, I will check out Natures Variety.
> 
> Honestly, although I like my vet when we are at the office and he is close for the motion sick Shadow, getting answers after the visit is tough. The staff is so rushed, they are super busy. With Covid, they have shortened the office hours a lot so they are open 4 less hours a day. When I have called, it is "can you hold" constantly. Go in and the phone is ringing constantly. I never get a complete answer to my question. It comes in dribs and drabs.
> I have considered changing vets but the other vets that are close are not allowing people in the office due to covid. You get to speak on the phone after all is said and done. So switching/finding a new vet is going to be tough at this time although I am considering it. If not for the motion sickness, I would have more options maybe. The motion sickness is a huge PITA.


Our local medical (MD) providers are using Zoom to chat with patients.:wink2:

Good Grief! even physicians are seeing patients in person. So are dentists and others. Has your Vet not heard of Masks! :frusty:

Sounds like your Vet is well established, close to retirement and doesn't need the money.


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

I wonder if all grain free foods are equal, just like any other food. I read an article that said either legumes or grains are needed to be able to make kibble. However, some manufacturers are using more legumes than they need to because it is a cheaper source of protein vs using meat. So in another words, they are substituting some of the animal protein with cheaper plant protein unnecessarily. Sometimes a little is okay but more is not.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Mikki said:


> Our local medical (MD) providers are using Zoom to chat with patients.:wink2:
> 
> Good Grief! even physicians are seeing patients in person. So are dentists and others. Has your Vet not heard of Masks! :frusty:
> 
> Sounds like your Vet is well established, close to retirement and doesn't need the money.


Grrr. Just happened again. I give up. Maybe I will re-compose later.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

Mikki said:


> Our local medical (MD) providers are using Zoom to chat with patients.:wink2:
> 
> Good Grief! even physicians are seeing patients in person. So are dentists and others. Has your Vet not heard of Masks! :frusty:
> 
> Sounds like your Vet is well established, close to retirement and doesn't need the money.


MY vet and staff wear masks and they are required by anyone to enter the office.

OTHER area vets are NOT allowing people into the office. Covid is a pretty big deal here,

I probably am not able to do zoom. I am technclally challenged and don't know how to use a smartphone hardly. But I am sure that someone on his staff knows how to use zoom if he does not. They chose to see people/pets in the office and I am happy with that.


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## farschie (Jan 6, 2021)

Reading with interest. My breeder recommended Purina Pro Plan and the vet was good with that too. So if not Purina, what do people recommend for puppies? Something that doesn't cost an arm and leg but is a good quality food? My sister uses Iams. Thoughts?


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## Mikki (May 6, 2018)

Tere said:


> MY vet and staff wear masks and they are required by anyone to enter the office.
> 
> OTHER area vets are NOT allowing people into the office. Covid is a pretty big deal here,
> 
> I probably am not able to do zoom. I am technclally challenged and don't know how to use a smartphone hardly. But I am sure that someone on his staff knows how to use zoom if he does not. They chose to see people/pets in the office and I am happy with that.


LOL!!....There are still telephones. Kidding you. :grin2:

I thought you needed to talk to the Vet and didn't understand you wanted to take Shadow back in.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

I do have a few questions that I need answered from Monday. Was promised a call today. It didn't happen. They are so busy.


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

Hi Tere

So sorry to hear Shadow is still not better, it sounds like a really tough time for you both :frown2:

I keep reading your post and then wimping out on replying as I know food issues can get people pretty emotional on here! But just in case this does help at all am going to brave it and post:

Flo was a fussy eater and I tried various different kibbles, then freeze dried and finally (after lots of raving from other dog walkers in the park) raw. I've got a bit lost with all the posts over whether Shadow has an upset tummy because he is poorly or because he has a sensitive tummy. What I can say from feeding Flo raw is that _she_ is happier with what goes in and _I _ am happier with what comes out:smile2: On raw her poo is quite solid and has the nice benefit of being virtually fragrance free!

I'm not suggesting you *should* put Shadow on raw, especially at the moment with everything else going on. And I also know traditional vets over here (UK) don't seem very keen on Raw feeding, I think perhaps because of salmonella risks and the like, but I thought it was worth a go and it suits *us*.

Reason I mention this is because I looked up on my food supplier's website (naturalinstinct.com) and their 'Special Diet' raw dog food has some good reviews from owners whose dogs have colitis, pancreatitis and IBS. They also offer a 'Pure' range which although not a complete balanced meal, so not suitable on it's own long term, might be useful in the short term for ruling out food allergies. This is a UK company so may be unlikely to get hold of in the US but am sure there must be similar companies offering similar products where you are.

All the best and I hope Shadow is on the mend very soon. X


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Hi Tere
> 
> So sorry to hear Shadow is still not better, it sounds like a really tough time for you both :frown2:
> 
> ...


Thank you for this post. It was beautifully put and no one should be offended by someone trying to be helpful and expressing their honest opinion.


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

mudpuppymama said:


> Thank you for this post. It was beautifully put and no one should be offended by someone trying to be helpful and expressing their honest opinion.


Ah thank you mudpuppymama. Wasn't sure whether to post, so really appreciate your response. Xx


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Ah thank you mudpuppymama. Wasn't sure whether to post, so really appreciate your response. Xx


I am a huge fan of raw feeding so always happy to hear when it works successfully for people. I wish more people would be willing to try it, especially when they are at the end of their rope trying to resolve digestive issues. So many commercial options these days make it very convenient too.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

Food can definitely be controversial but I haven’t heard many vets really fight against raw food when it’s commercial. I don’t think they always love it, but it’s more accepted. Maybe this is local to me. The problem I notice is “raw” and “grain free” (and now “with grain”) have all become trends at one point or another so it’s a marketing point and many foods are often priced higher.


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## GoWithTheFlo (Oct 11, 2018)

EvaE1izabeth said:


> Food can definitely be controversial but I haven't heard many vets really fight against raw food when it's commercial. I don't think they always love it, but it's more accepted. Maybe this is local to me. The problem I notice is "raw" and "grain free" (and now "with grain") have all become trends at one point or another so it's a marketing point and many foods are often priced higher.


Definitely agree about "trends"! I tell you where I also notice this is with regards to feeding babies/toddlers/young children; whether it's breast feeding v formula, home made baby food v shop bought, feed peanuts to children or they will develop a nut allergy v don't feed peanuts to children or they will develop a nut allergy:Cry:

I think we definitely get targeted through our vulnerability over wanting to do 'what's best' for our families human or furry and marketing definitely plays on that.

As with most things in life there's going to be pros and cons to each, and we all just try to do what we _think_ is the right thing. X


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Definitely agree about "trends"! I tell you where I also notice this is with regards to feeding babies/toddlers/young children; whether it's breast feeding v formula, home made baby food v shop bought, feed peanuts to children or they will develop a nut allergy v don't feed peanuts to children or they will develop a nut allergy:Cry:
> 
> I think we definitely get targeted through our vulnerability over wanting to do 'what's best' for our families human or furry and marketing definitely plays on that.
> 
> As with most things in life there's going to be pros and cons to each, and we all just try to do what we _think_ is the right thing. X


Great points! I think being open and willing to try things is important. And different things may work for different folks, but if you never try how do you know?


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## itsgooby (Dec 2, 2020)

Like mudpuppymama and GoWithTheFlo, I am a big fan of feeding raw and I agree with all of their points on it. I do believe the major concern vets have is that of an unbalanced diet. My BIL for example was only feeding his Huskies a chicken leg quarter because he liked the idea of a species appropriate diet but it definitely wasn't balanced AT all. He now feeds kibble because going raw for 2 Huskies can get expensive and require time to prep and get educated on what a proper balanced raw diet looks like. So it is a matter of cost and convenience for him. My friend feeds her cat cooked chicken breast which is not a balanced meal - but she believes she is doing the right thing and it works for her. I don't judge her - she is doing the best she can and sees benefits over the canned food she was feeding him before. 

We all want the best for our families and do the best we can. I am so sorry Shadow is experiencing issues, I cannot imagine how tough and expensive this must be! I pray you find a solution and treatment soon.


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

*Hand in there Tere&#127801;*

Right before I read this thread I posted on another one with Mudpuppymama. I'm rifling through as much info as I can about raw diets. Two great websites are RawPetsRule and PerfectlyRawsome. YouTube has The Primal Pack series which is great! The videos are short, colorful and easy to follow, although I need to watch some again and take notes. I also like rawpetsrule.com
Before JoJo took another turn downward I was giving them a partially homemade diet and within a week Jodie's patches of dry scaled skin started healing. All of those references from Mudpuppymama address the need for balanced nutrition. That's why the species appropriate diet that itsgooby mentioned is also important. Boy do I remember raising babies/kids like GoWithTheFlow, everyone knows how to raise children better than you! I was not offended by your post either GoWithTheFlow.


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## Kay O (May 31, 2012)

My hav had the puking all the time, diarrhea, high ALT and AST levels in blood tests. As a puppy she gurgled, puked clear sometimes and her food at other times, hiccuped, stomach rumbled loudly, diarrhea, and passed gas. FINALLY, her board certified internal medicine veterinarian diagnosed her with Irritable Bowel Disorder, IBD.

He put her on metronidazole and prednisone for 6 weeks. Afterwards she came off it and returned to her previous symptoms. Finally he changed her diet to novel protein diet Royal Canin Potato and Venison which is RX only. In addition she takes RX Reglan liquid every other day and the rotates that with 1/4 of a 5mg prednisone on the days she doesn’t take the Reglan.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

GoWithTheFlo said:


> Ah thank you mudpuppymama. Wasn't sure whether to post, so really appreciate your response. Xx


Absolutely NOTHING wrong with your post! <3


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

*Breeders like it too*

Hello again Tere,
Back when I was in hyper research mode I saw many breeders who recommended Pro Plan on their websites. At one point I fed our dogs Purina Pro Plan Adult Sensitive Skin & Stomach Lamb & Oatmeal Formula Dry Dog Food but Jodie was still hacking. Then I switched to Earthborn Holistic Unrefined Roasted Lamb with Ancient Grains & Superfoods Dry Dog Food. That worked well for her, although the boys did fine with the Purina as well. It is pretty pricey though, sorry farschie.
Thirty years ago, our Golden lived to almost 16 being fed Iams lamb and rice. We had 2 small, clinically hyper, boys so I couldn't do a homemade diet. He was the perfect dog for our family and remained very healthy until 6 months before he passed. Just like people, every dog is different.
Kay O, how is your baby doing these days? I have a friend who has been active here in the past and her kiddo has IBD. She struggles with feeling guilty even though she loves her Hav to pieces and will do anything she can for her.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

Kay O, so sorry for the belly woes of your little one. I wonder how old she was and is now and how her IBD was diagnosed?


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

JaJa said:


> Hello again Tere,
> Back when I was in hyper research mode I saw many breeders who recommended Pro Plan on their websites. At one point I fed our dogs Purina Pro Plan Adult Sensitive Skin & Stomach Lamb & Oatmeal Formula Dry Dog Food but Jodie was still hacking. Then I switched to Earthborn Holistic Unrefined Roasted Lamb with Ancient Grains & Superfoods Dry Dog Food. That worked well for her, although the boys did fine with the Purina as well. It is pretty pricey though, sorry farschie.
> Thirty years ago, our Golden lived to almost 16 being fed Iams lamb and rice. We had 2 small, clinically hyper, boys so I couldn't do a homemade diet. He was the perfect dog for our family and remained very healthy until 6 months before he passed. Just like people, every dog is different.
> Kay O, how is your baby doing these days? I have a friend who has been active here in the past and her kiddo has IBD. She struggles with feeling guilty even though she loves her Hav to pieces and will do anything she can for her.


I finally found a food that I think will be good. Shadow is not a fussy eater at all. Despite his belly woes, he has never refused food(yet). I hope it agrees with him. Vet increased his Metronidazole dose yesterday and wants him to stay on Hills ID for a week. I think I will start the transition after the week of increased dose. It is pretty close to ID so I am hoping the transition will be easy and good.
The food I picked is Zignature Select Cuts Turkey. The vet said to do grains, no peas, not salmon. And I think I had issues with Earthborn puppy vantage(chicken) and the 1st. food I tried. So I am avoiding chicken.
Fingers crossed.

My healthest dog was a Bichon Frise, from a horrible puppy mill(1984). He ate Pedigree Mealtime plus hamburger patties, pizza crusts, had a slice of white bread toasted with butter for breakfast. He ate this for 17 years. I did have to switch his food his last year though but he was almost 19 when his little legs gave out. RIP the wonderful Casper! So you never know...


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

19? Wow, Casper was a super hero! 
Zignature is a great brand, my final choice was between Zignature Select Cuts Lamb & Lamb Meal and the Earthborn lamb with ancient grains. Zignature has meat as the first ingredient and the meal is specified as turkey. If it's labeled as just meat meal it's hard to know what it really is. If Jodie starts to react to the Earthborn then I'll switch her to Zignature. Ironically, the price on both brands is identical. 
Cotton was also a rescue from a puppy mill and abused. He's now 11 and rolls around the house all day with Jodie who's only 2! Like you said, "So you never know..." I'll be sending happy and healthy thoughts to both of you💜


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

Thank you for the suggestion of Earthborn. That would have fit the requirements too. I looked at 1000's of foods & missed it. I've talked to six people who consider themselves experts in pet food and they never mentioned it. The only reason it was so many people was that I went to 3 stores who said that they had the Zignature food I wanted and when I got there, no they don't carry the Select Cuts. 
I should have just asked here!!! If for some reason, the Zignature doesn't sit well, this would be a great option!!! Thanks again and I'm happy to hear that your puppies are all doing well.


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

Thank you, we have quite the amusing trio😋 I had the same issue with Earthborn. The feed store said they carried it but they only had the base products.Tthose have lamb meal as the first ingredient versus just lamb. Those products have canola oil versus sunflower oil which Zignature has also. Sunflower oil has more linoleic acid which isn't a huge issue but those types of differences are why our choices are a little pricey. However, sunflower oil has more iodine which might be an issue for some Pets. When it comes to feeding our dogs there is always a however...🙃
Have you heard back from your vet or do you have to wait until Monday? I hope Shadow is better soon for both of you, please keep us posted.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

Yes, the vet called back late Thursday finally. He upped the dose on Metronidazole from 1/4 to 1/2 of a 250 mg. tablet twice a day for a week, then back down to 1/4 tablet twice a day for a week. Plus the Hills ID Turkey. He didn't say when to start trying the new food.
Shadow seems a little weird on the higher dose. 
Three Havanese?! I didn't realize you had 3!


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## mudpuppymama (Mar 24, 2012)

Tere said:


> Yes, the vet called back late Thursday finally. He upped the dose on Metronidazole from 1/4 to 1/2 of a 250 mg. tablet twice a day for a week, then back down to 1/4 tablet twice a day for a week. Plus the Hills ID Turkey. He didn't say when to start trying the new food.
> Shadow seems a little weird on the higher dose.
> Three Havanese?! I didn't realize you had 3!


I really hope Shadow is on the mend. I read up on the side effects of Metronidazole. It looks some dogs can have neurological side effects. I am wondering if that is what you are seeing in Shadow.

https://dogtime.com/dog-health/53249-metronidazole-dogs-uses-dosage-side-effects


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

Possibly, but yesterday, he was acting the same. We were out for a walk and I was telling his best friend's father about it so he brought Bandit out to play with Shadow. Suddenly, he was back to his usual self. They played like lunatics. 
I think he feels a bit off and plays on it.


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## JaJa (Jun 28, 2020)

My friend's dog (Sophie) does the same thing. She'll run around and love playing with other dogs but then she regrets it later. I emailed her tonight and asked if she has any wisdom to share from what she did for her dog in the past. 
Third time is a charm, right? We did not actively decide we wanted 3 but we're glad we have them. JoJo was only a 6 months from dying when we brought Jodie home. Our vet has refused to give me anymore time frames relating to life span. She's decided she's living with us when she gets old😆 I'll let you know if I get info from Sophie's Mom.


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## Tere (Oct 17, 2018)

Shadow"s belly seems to be much better since upping the dose No gurgling, no burping, he pooped only twice yesterday. Kind of strange about his pooping though. Prior to this diarrhea, he would poop every time he was taken out. Not like he had to go out but I'd take him out before I was going somewhere for a quick pee and he would always poop. Never would he go for a walk and not poop. It was a rare outing that he didn't poop. 
I've talked about this to my vet probably every visit and he was unconcerned! So things are looking good, I think. I can hardly wait to start the new food. The Hills ID smell turns my stomach. Vet says to keep him on ID for 2 more weeks.


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