# How are we feeling about the sale of the forum??



## hav2 (Feb 26, 2010)

I just want to know to those of you who have been here a while, what is the overall feeling about this whole thing?? I'm pretty peeved about the whole content ownership thing. Are any of you already thinking of leaving?? I would really hate to lose this forum. I haven't been here as long as a lot of you, but I love all of you, your pups, and this forum. Just trying to figure out the general consensus??


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## Mom2Izzo (Jul 1, 2009)

Not sure but I do know that I won't be posting anymore pics. I will be removing any pics I have posted in the past as well.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

I'm simply cautious at this point.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

Basically, I feel like the only one who is not paranoid here! If you read the TOS on COUNTLESS other sites where we post videos, photos, etc. they read almost exactly the same. I think everyone is getting their panties in a bunch for no reason...


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## hav2 (Feb 26, 2010)

Natalie~ just checked......yep my panties are definitely not in a bunch I hope this is a good thing for the forum! I just think if they added that they would ask permission before using content, that would make things go over better.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

^ Agreed. I like the little snipped in YouTube's policy that clarifies "YOU OWN YOUR CONTENT"

I guess I feel like this could be a good thing and help us grow, but a lot of people are getting overly...something...not rude, or anything, I think just getting stressed before they have had their questions answered


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## hav2 (Feb 26, 2010)

I know. I want it to help and not hinder the forum too. I still want the forum to attract the right kind of people and not the wrong ones. Sometimes over-advertising can get you all kind of loonies in here. I am opened to change if it will help us grow in the right direction and if this company is open and honest on how they are doing that.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

I did go in and delete all my private messages...that is about all..of course I don't have all the photos and videos and things most of you have on the forum. I don't know, it might be a good thing in the long run...let's just see!


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## Janizona (Oct 17, 2006)

I spoke with Melissa on the phone tonight and she's really hoping everyone won't jump ship right away. She is confident that everyone (well, most everyone) will be happy with the new forum owners if given the chance.

I agree the language of terms needs to be changed. I did look around on vbulletin sites and didn't find that language. I hope to see that changed very soon. In the meantime, I'd suggest holding off on posting photos.

Can we all agree to wait a month and see what is going to happen?? We can discuss this again at that time and if things are not satisfactory to the general membership, I'm willing to look into starting a new forum. Just remember, you will be leaving ALL the information behind that everyone has worked so hard to put together. It will be a blank slate in a new forum.
__________________


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

I removed all pictures I have posted as far back as it would allow me, which was only for 1 year. I didn't want to wait until it is too late. 

It would have been nicer I think if the announcement had been handled a little differently. Also would have been great if this new company had considered not having such a broad TERM OF USE. 

I always trusted Melissa and still do. I don't however feel a lot of trust with a company that takes over and tells us all that whatever we post here is now their property and they own the copyrights to all.


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## Janizona (Oct 17, 2006)

Can you tell folks how to do that Kathy? I think many feel the same way and would like to also remove some.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Janizona said:


> Can you tell folks how to do that Kathy? I think many feel the same way and would like to also remove some.


I don't know how to remove the pictures from the gallery but you can remove pictures you have embedded in your posts.

1. click on "user CP"
2. click on "attachments"
3. now you can see all the photos you have posted and you can delete them.


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## Sheri (Oct 11, 2008)

Thank you, Kathy, I had no idea!


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## Olliesmom (Sep 29, 2006)

Melisssa has been trusted and loved for years...

and she worked hard to fine the next generation owner...

Such a great place...so many friends...my gosh its only been a few hours!! :biggrin1:

Innocent until proven guilty (well maybe not when it comes to my 19 year old son!!)eace:


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## Redorr (Feb 2, 2008)

Aside from the pictures issue - which I don't fret about because I have long since figured that any photo I post on "the internets" is, in reality, out there for anyone to use - I am definitely in a wait and see mode. 

I have feared that the downside would be 1) chaotic advertising or 2) too many trolls joining. Melissa had to approve new members - and I recall some people being ticked that it took too long - and I suppose these folks will, too. Just not sure they can screen out the trolls as effectively as Melissa did. 

There is such value here I would hate to lose it and lose my connection to so many cyber-friends. At the Nationals this week two women who were showing puppies asked me what we were all about with our red boas. I told them we were friends who had met online at the HF. They both poo-poo'd the idea of forums, saying they didn't possibly have time to read posts. Well, I wanted to say "hey, eff you" but instead I told them that my Lola probably would not be alive were it not for this group of wonderful hav owners, and that I have made friends that share good times and support in bad times just by stumbling onto this site. Well that shut them up!!!

I value this group of great friends and smart dog owners. I'd hate to see all the valuable information go away. So, I am hanging in and hoping that in a few months time we won't even notice a change. Hey, I was a change management consultant for 12 years...I should be helping us all cope!


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## CacheHavs (Aug 2, 2007)

Kathy said:


> I don't know how to remove the pictures from the gallery but you can remove pictures you have embedded in your posts.
> 
> 1. click on "user CP"
> 2. click on "attachments"
> 3. now you can see all the photos you have posted and you can delete them.


Thanks Kathy, I just removed all of my photos since 2007
I do have issues with someone claiming that that have permission to use my photos as they please...if I choose to add any photos I will be sure they do have watermarks all across them with my copyright.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Redorr said:


> Well, I wanted to say "hey, eff you" but instead I told them that my Lola probably would not be alive were it not for this group of wonderful hav owners, and that I have made friends that share good times and support in bad times just by stumbling onto this site. *Well that shut them up*!!!
> 
> I value this group of great friends and smart dog owners. I'd hate to see all the valuable information go away. So, I am hanging in and hoping that in a few months time we won't even notice a change. *Hey, I was a change management consultant for 12 years...I should be helping us all cope![*/QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

Thanks Kathy for letting us know how to delete the attachment pics- I just went thru and deleted 43 pages worth!! (yikes!)


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

*Not trying to be snarky or rude--but rather honest and forthright-
*My feelings are it sucks! uke:

I wish Melissa would have given me a head's up....and or maybe a little " I'm sorry " when I did finally hear back from her. I thought I found out in a really crappy way much later then many other people even as a moderator.

I also wish Melissa would have entertained the idea of selling to a forum member or group instead (given the blogs I have read from VS)...or perhaps have given adminstrative control to others who are on here alot to keep things updated--and using calendar sales etc. to make the forum self sustainable financially. I find this a very sad day----though----I have to add,I have always really thought alot of Melissa and still do (even though I may not agree with her on many issues) and it was hers to sell to the highest bidder (so to speak).

I expect to give up moderator statis by this post alone...and I'm good with that. I did it for MM as a favor (free) and do not feel like I want to join the VS team.


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## lcy_pt (Aug 17, 2007)

Julie, girl...i couldn't agree with you more. I've always loved how you've spoken your mind. Backing you up 100% on this one. :hug:

I haven't posted here in a very long time. Actually haven't been on FB for awhile either. Just busy with life. Thanks to all who've sent messages 

I joined this forum about one year prior to having my two boys scamper into my life and I have never been the same since. I still can't believe I feel such love for two hairy little beasts who bring a smile to my face each and every day.

Many of you have watched them grow up with me and I've loved sharing the joys of watching the antics of all of yours. It was always a fun, easy-going place to start your day or come to when you wanted to pull your hair out in frustration over potty training or the dreaded MATTS. This was not just a _forum_, this was home.

Melissa started this and gave us all a venue to meet, discuss, share and yes....sometimes burn off a little steam. But she kept us all under control when things got a little heated....just like a mother hen. We all went back to our respective time out chairs....and came back friends.

Although I've only met a few of the members, I can honestly say that if someone contacted me from the forum and said they were in town....well, of course they would be welcomed into my home...for at least dinner and Havie talk.

Perhaps that is what is most upsetting to me is that this forum _was_ different. On some level we're all _friends_. But I too think there were alternatives to what happened here. I certainly don't know Melissa's reasons....we all know she was busy, busy, busy. And she shared incredible pictures of her travels with us. Amazing pictures! Keeping up with the day to day running of this forum obviously had to be very time consuming. But there were so many who were willing to look at alternatives, so we could keep the forum in the spirit in which it was created. This is where my frustration lies.

We've all seen the forum change as it grew....and it became less and less a small band of friends....and that too changed as the larger group of members became part of the pack....so change _can_ be good....we can all adapt. Some of the oldsters meet on FB more frequently now...but we all met here!

Having said all that, this wasn't just a forum...this wasn't a business-like environment...this was FAMILY....actually _better_ than family, really.

Did Melissa have to tell us what was going on? No, of course not....she owned the forum. Could she have pulled the plug on this at anytime? Of course, and she did threaten us a few times when we were not behaving on the playground. Could she have 'sold' the forum to one or more of the members? Of course. Could she have given the forum over to some of us to be self-sufficient through fundraising? Yes.

We all want to know what the heck happened, but the reality is that it's really none of our business...it was Melissa's decision to make. But now it's no longer really family, is it? And that's what leaves such a sour taste in my mouth. Like being told Santa Claus doesn't exist anymore. Really, really not cool.....

So I too, have removed all my pictures....and cried while doing it...because, to me this is the end. Overreacting? Maybe. What's done cannot be undone. Hurtful when it always ends up being about the money.

I'm sure my post will be deleted. After all, so much has changed here and the locking down of threads has already started when it becomes uncomfortable.

Thanks for the fun times guys! And to the friends I have met here...I'll try to be on FB more often. I luv ya!

Pat


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Kathy said:


> I removed all pictures I have posted as far back as it would allow me, which was only for 1 year. I didn't want to wait until it is too late.
> 
> It would have been nicer I think if the announcement had been handled a little differently. Also would have been great if this new company had considered not having such a broad TERM OF USE.
> 
> I always trusted Melissa and still do. I don't however feel a lot of trust with a company that takes over and tells us all that whatever we post here is now their property and they own the copyrights to all.


I had a lot of photos on this forum of other peoples dogs from various shows I had attended over the years. I just removed all my photos out of respect to all my friends and forum family.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

I have some similar feelings to Julie and Pat. First it was the disclaimer to use and our dogs that bothered me. Then it was looking at their other sites and seeing BYB ads in between posts. Melissa stated to me on facebook there would be no puppy advertising on the forum but it appears already that isn't going to be true but they are going to try and monitor it. I personally feel no dogs should be advertised on an educational forum (but I guess the reality of having to make a profit is now there). And then it is just something contradictory to me about the forum and being for profit to me. Maybe it is how many on this forum have rallied together and given to Havanese unconditionally- the quilt, the calendar, the playdates, etc. I don't know exactly why but I just don't like the idea of it being ran for a profit.


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## Poornima (Jun 29, 2007)

mckennasedona said:


> I'm simply cautious at this point.


Ditto!

Just wanted to add that I decided to delete all the pictures I posted.


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## Evye's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

I think for now I am going to take a wait and see approach. I would hate to jump ship too prematurely to learn that not all that much has changed. For me, the saddest thing would be to lose contact with SO many wonderful, caring, knowledgeable and fun people. The friendships are treasured. The information I have learned from this forum is immeasurable, in the way of support in times of need, our breed, training, grooming, nutrition, health issues, behaviors....the list goes on and on. I know of no other place nor people that I can share my life with my dogs (and my breed) in the way we all do here on the forum. My family and my friends would disown me if I dared. I am going to just watch and listen for the time being. Fingers crossed things will continue on without too much disruption or changes. :grouphug:


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## Pixiesmom (Jul 31, 2008)

Poornima said:


> Ditto!
> 
> Just wanted to add that I decided to delete all the pictures I posted.


I want to do this also-but how do you delete pics from a thread you initiated? I can't seem to figure that out..


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## Kathie (Jul 31, 2008)

I can understand why the breeders on the forum would want to delete their pictures - but what is the problem with pictures of our pets? We have learned a lot about grooming from many of the pictures and I would hate to think that many are jumping to conclusions and cutting off their noses to spite their face!!

I'm personally not worried about any of my pictures of Abby - I'm sure they are only truly valuable to no one but me! That said - I am still planning to wait and see what develops. I hope many of you will join me in giving the new company a chance.


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## brugmansia (Dec 6, 2007)

I'm not sure about this either. I have deleted my photos as well, but I also haven't posted many. I mostly post my pictures on FB anyway since I can somewhat control who can see them and who can not, and even there I'm careful about what pictures I post. 

I've checked out a couple of the VS sites someone here had posted and they just look awful to me. When it begins getting that busy looking, I don't bother going to that website. I love the simplicity and no advertisements of this forum. I am so tired of the increase of the use of advertisements everywhere - there was even an article I read about a state possibly using license plates to advertise (just an idea for the moment) - but that's my beef!!!:brick:

We'll just have to wait and see how it goes here!


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

I deleted all my pictures too.  it sad not to have a record of the boys life with us... I will really miss the Jasper and Cash Thread. Thanks for the "how to" Kathy. yes just being cautious, I am willing to give VS a chance. But what a sad site it will be with no pictures! 

I had 45 pages of pictures! maybe VS's TOS is their way of cleaning house and making space...LOL. 

Amanda, I think we have to see how they respond when we do catch inappropriate material advertising on the site. people can sneak into the white house, bad ads will show up here, it is just how they handle it.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

I implore everyone who is deleting their pictures to please wait. Please. The TOS will be rewritten.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Kathie said:


> I can understand why the breeders on the forum would want to delete their pictures - but what is the problem with pictures of our pets? We have learned a lot about grooming from many of the pictures and I would hate to think that many are jumping to conclusions and cutting off their noses to spite their face!!
> 
> I'm personally not worried about any of my pictures of Abby - I'm sure they are only truly valuable to no one but me! That said - I am still planning to wait and see what develops. I hope many of you will join me in giving the new company a chance.


Kathy, I have some lucky pictures of the boys looking like "perfect pets" I would hate to see the shot of Jas and Cash looking out the door with their paws around each other show up with an add for science diet or even worse advertising a puppy mill. The thing about on-line, is no one has to actually steal your photos and use them in an add...they can just pop up with a simple text add/link but the impression is that the picture and the text is together. So better cautious at this point. But I too want to see what happens.


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## Posh's Mom (Dec 20, 2007)

same poop different pile.

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=64917


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

Posh's Mom said:


> same poop different pile.
> 
> http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=64917


Posh's Mom, I invite you to sign up on in that community and ask the mods, admins and community members if we have done anything in the almost one year we have been there that has changed what they were use to doing. I'm not saying we have been perfect (you can't always please everyone) but at the very least, I really believe the overall feeling is that we have touched very little on that site.


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## Dawna (Aug 3, 2006)

Not really Amy, the new owner actually got a warm 'welcome' on the golden forum and the original owner got support and congratulations. I realize that wasn't your point.


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## KSC (Aug 6, 2009)

hav2 said:


> Natalie~ just checked......yep my panties are definitely not in a bunch I hope this is a good thing for the forum! I just think if they added that they would ask permission before using content, that would make things go over better.


Mine neither....I just want to understand what this all means and then sign up aware of what I'm signing up for.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Well I for one am willing to give it a try. This is a wonderful forum and I don't want to quit. I don't think anyone will want the pictures of Rosie I have posted but they might want to sell the one of my big rooster (I don't care if they give me a royalty). just kidding

And as copywites go, if you add a c enclosed by a circle to all your pictures it is a notice of copywrite. You have two years from the day that you posted that picture to actually file with the US copywrite office to finalize the copywrite. This works for survey plats and engineering drawings that we send out to keep someone incorporating our work product into their plans without paying. I have actually had to officially finalize 2 times to receive payment. I think you have to date the photo also.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

You really have a rooster?


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## Gizmo'sMom (Jul 9, 2010)

The below is from a major photo retailer that tecnically doesn't "post" images for all to see (as in you log and upload and then pay to have printed, and are the only one who can access) they have:

You grant to the Web Site and its service providers and licensees a non-exclusive, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, unrestricted, world-wide right and license to access, use, copy, reproduce, distribute, transmit, display, perform, communicate to the public, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, and otherwise use such Materials (in whole or in part) in connection with the Service, using any form, media or technology now known or later developed, without providing compensation to you or any other person, without any liability to you or any other person, and free from any obligation of confidence or other duties on the part of the Web Site or its service providers; 

You grant to all members and other Service users permission to access, view, store, copy, reproduce, distribute, transmit, display, perform, and reproduce such Materials (in whole or in part) in any of the ways facilitated or provided by the Service;

Trust me it's all over....please don't quit or remove everything because of it  

This type of text is in most TOS from most places and people don't realize or read it. I'm not saying VS is deffinitly on the up and up but give them a chance. 

One example is I played an online game where they said they own the copywrite to the name of your character once created...if that actually stood up no Super Hero would ever be created (there were litterally MILLIONS created on the game and it would be almost impossible to not hit the same name) between me and my brother we made over 200 alone!


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Evye's Mom said:


> I think for now I am going to take a wait and see approach. I would hate to jump ship too prematurely to learn that not all that much has changed. For me, the saddest thing would be to lose contact with SO many wonderful, caring, knowledgeable and fun people. The friendships are treasured. The information I have learned from this forum is immeasurable, in the way of support in times of need, our breed, training, grooming, nutrition, health issues, behaviors....the list goes on and on. I know of no other place nor people that I can share my life with my dogs (and my breed) in the way we all do here on the forum. My family and my friends would disown me if I dared. I am going to just watch and listen for the time being. Fingers crossed things will continue on without too much disruption or changes. :grouphug:


I agree, Lets give the new owners a chance.

I have to add I am astounded at how many people on this forum are in a panic to remove photos. Did you not realize "if you post on the internet it can be copied". Not only by the new owners on this forum but by any smart computer whiz. Photos have been great part of this forum and I would really hate to see that end.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

It sucks.

I wish we would've been given a chance to match or offer more $ than what verticscope (or whatever they are called paid for the forum) I would've been very interested in buying it, or going into a joint ownership/partnership with anyone else interested in keeping it the same place. 

However, it won't ever be the same place now that we've been commercialized and our posts/ pictures are not being used to make someone money that doesn't give two ****s about our dog or breed.

Just looking at the other forums owned by this company tells enough of a tale of what is to come.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

Buy it back? maybe VS would sell it back to the members?


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

I have posted very few photos because I am a crappy photographer so that part doesn't affect me peresonally. The sentence in the TOS about right of resale bothers me. Even if they NEVER do anything with people's photos or posts or videos, that sentence is in there, which means they COULD. 
I'll stick around and see what happens. This is such a close cohesive group, I'd miss it very much if it went away. If it turns out that every time I log into the forum I am bombarded with ads or popups, I"ll probably have second thoughts and wait for a new forum to open up. On one site I visit, I click on the forum link and get a pop up, click again, get another pop-up. I have to click a third time to actually get the forum to open up. Hopefully that won't happen here. I'm pretty sure things will change, because every new owner of something wants to put their own stamp on it, but if the changes are minor, that's okay with me.
I LOVE what Melissa has created here. You can tell she did it with love and for that I thank her. It would have been nice to have the forum officially offered to the members (there are a lot of them with the money to run it) first before an outside, for profit, company but it was entirely Melissa's decision to make and she made the one that was right for her. I can respect that.


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## hav2 (Feb 26, 2010)

Missy said:


> Buy it back? maybe VS would sell it back to the members?


They would probably want an astronomical sum for it. The only way we could pull that off is some major fundraising or member donations.


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## Missy (Nov 6, 2006)

hav2 said:


> They would probably want an astronomical sum for it. The only way we could pull that off is some major fundraising or member donations.


people are passionate about this.


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## hav2 (Feb 26, 2010)

Missy said:


> people are passionate about this.


I more than willing to donate or fundraise, whatever it takes and whatever we all decide.


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## tabby2 (Jan 19, 2009)

SMARTY said:


> I have to add I am astounded at how many people on this forum are in a panic to remove photos. Did you not realize "if you post on the internet it can be copied". Not only by the new owners on this forum but by any smart computer whiz. Photos have been great part of this forum and I would really hate to see that end.


Agreed, but I think most people are reacting to something different: the statements in the TOS that the new owner is granted licenses, etc. to use the photos (and other posts); that's different from taking the risk that someone swipes the photos. I, too, checked a number of other sites' TOS's and most of them were more limited and carefully written.

Because the TOS says that usage = consent to the TOS -- which is of somewhat suspect enforceability, which is why many sites require you to click on an "Agree" button the first time you post on it -- registering affirmative disagreement and removing photos is not an unreasonable response for those who have concerns. Each person's situation is different, and I hope we all realize and respect that.

Most transitions have bumps in the road, and this one is no different. This has been a great place and hopefully will only improve over time.


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

I'm sorry to see Melissa go, but I'm not going to get my knickers in a twist about this. It's just like the dozens of other sites I belong to and nobody has ever "stolen" my pictures. In fact, anybody can go to this site right now and right click and copy a picture to their desktop. Truth is, once you put a picture online, it's pretty much fair game. Sure, it's your picture and you own it, but there's nothing stopping somebody from "collecting" it.


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## DorothyS (Aug 11, 2009)

I am saddened to see how quickly people have jumped to the conclusion that change is bad. Change is change, and it can be what we make of it. Everything eventually changes, but I would hope that all the great people (and their pets) whom I have met and learned so much from on this forum will not all jump the gun and take off in a huff. 

Sorry, but it really seems from reading all these posts that many are concluding the worst, rather than being glad that the forum has not been disbanded entirely. Regarding pictures when people have a commercial interest in their photos, as in breeders, I can understand a concern and would hope that a new TOS will help allay any fears. For pet photos, heavens, we post all sorts of stuff on Youtube, Facebook, really there is not very much privacy anymore with the Internet.

I plan to stick around. I have enjoyed this forum and learned too much to make a hasty decision of leaving. I hope others will also be willing to give it a chance.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

Thumperlove said:


> It sucks.
> 
> I wish we would've been given a chance to match or offer more $ than what verticscope (or whatever they are called paid for the forum) I would've been very interested in buying it, or going into a joint ownership/partnership with anyone else interested in keeping it the same place.
> 
> ...


Yes, it would have been much easier to have someone in the group purchase it outright before this group bought it. I don't know why, but this happens alot in business. I think there would have probably been a big uproar even if it had been offered to the group first. By group I mean anyone in the forum. 
I think it came as a big surprise to everyone and not a pleasant one. It seems there are some interesting ideas surfacing. Let's see what happens. I am not a big photo poster, but some of the members of this group have been quite creative in their videos and photos and I can understand their concerns. Flynn


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

I am unsure how I feel, but to be honest, now that it is sold it doesn't matter to them how I feel. Whether I like it or not, the forum has new owners, but that TOS has me leary. Also seeing the other forums, I want to be on record to say "I DON'T LIKE" that I will be charged a membership fee, if I want so-called "perks" as a forum member.

The bottom line is this new owner will NOT sell this forum as it has so much money making potential. If there was no money potential, this company would NOT be buying out all these other dog forums. Whatever money they paid for this forum, is simply a tip on an iceberg of potential revenue in advertising. I don't like the idea of BYB paying for advertising, as well as cheap dog food companies paying for ad space, but there is nothing I can say or do to change what is done. I will miss the forum for what it was, and I will be in "wait and see" mode right now before doing anything hasty.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

Howdy neighbour 

Thanks for your comments. We will work with the community to prevent BYB's/Puppy Mills from getting their ads on Google to come here. It'll be a messy fight but I'm up for the challenge.



whitBmom said:


> I am unsure how I feel, but to be honest, now that it is sold it doesn't matter to them how I feel. Whether I like it or not, the forum has new owners, but that TOS has me leary. Also seeing the other forums, I want to be on record to say "I DON'T LIKE" that I will be charged a membership fee, if I want so-called "perks" as a forum member.
> 
> The bottom line is this new owner will NOT sell this forum as it has so much money making potential. If there was no money potential, this company would NOT be buying out all these other dog forums. Whatever money they paid for this forum, is simply a tip on an iceberg of potential revenue in advertising. I don't like the idea of BYB paying for advertising, as well as cheap dog food companies paying for ad space, but there is nothing I can say or do to change what is done. I will miss the forum for what it was, and I will be in "wait and see" mode right now before doing anything hasty.


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## j.j.'s mom (Aug 16, 2009)

the forum has been purchased by a business.. so everything translates into
profit.. i don't think they are going to do anything that is going to cause a large number of folks to leave the forum... the income comes from advertising and if the "audience" is gone... so goes the profits. it appears that they are willing to change some of the language in the TOS... so hang tight. be prepared.... there are going to be tons of ads coming through...
here is a close example of what we have to look forward too:
http://spoiledmaltese.com/
i am not going to go away quietly from a group that has been so valuable to me...
thx.
marcia


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

Marcia, same with the Yorkie forum (my FIL has Yorkies so I clicked on that one). On the first page, above the actual forum, are the Google ads. There are eight of them. Three are for Yorkie puppies. Two of those are from AffordablePets.com.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

That does not look anything like what we have now and I am disappointed in the premium membership. When did this forum start? Maybe if members become unhappy someone will start a new forum. It can be done. SO no one is really tied into anything at this point. Lots of information on here true and I love the no advertising, but someone is paying!! (Melissa was). Give it a chance, if you don't like it...start something you do like. Seems to be the only option now. Flynn


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

I don't have issues with advertising, the only issue I have is with people advertising their puppies for sale. Product advertising is everywhere on the net and really is a choice for people to click on. Advertisers pay for clicks. The only thing that really cannot be controlled is the google ads, so there is no doubt that puppy ads will come through. So we can only hope that the threads that discuss the importance of research, health testing and what to look for in a reputable breeder can be locked threads that are at the top ALWAYS for all new members to have at their finger tips. Other forums have important threads locked but are informational and are clearly visible and marked IMPORTANT. This is just a suggestion to hopefully inform any potential puppy buyers. HRI and other rescue organizations have done so much to help dogs from mills and the "quick buck" BYB, it would be sad to see our havanese gain even more popularity and cause these horrible places to think "hmmmm" this is a great way to make money because the demand will increase as a result. Just a thought...


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

whitBmom said:


> So we can only hope that the threads that discuss the importance of research, health testing and what to look for in a reputable breeder can be locked threads that are at the top ALWAYS for all new members to have at their finger tips. Other forums have important threads locked but are informational and are clearly visible and marked IMPORTANT.


I haven't had a chance to look around here too much yet but this is a great idea. We can definitely get some of the topics of importance stickied to the top of a forum category.


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## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

sorry guys but i haven't been posting in a while or reading either....what's the story with the new forum?  is there an original posting i can read to get caught up?


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## littlebuddy (May 30, 2007)

ummm a little Embarrassed.....saw the info on the next new post regarding the changeover. will read up on it.


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## hav2 (Feb 26, 2010)

I recommend starting with the "Announcement" thread and with the "Vertical Scope" thread. That should give you most of the run down. In short, Melissa sold the forum to a company called Vertical scope and a lot of forum members are upset over the terms of use of the forum now.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I don't care about ads. They're everywhere, on my Google groups, on my MLS, everywhere. I barely notice them and if anything is a pop up, I use a pop up blocker.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

I think it's funny how almost every person who says they removed all their photos still have avatar pics and signature pics.

Guys, you all need to RELAX.


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## Leslie (Feb 28, 2007)

Evye's Mom said:


> I think for now I am going to take a wait and see approach. I would hate to jump ship too prematurely to learn that not all that much has changed. For me, the saddest thing would be to lose contact with SO many wonderful, caring, knowledgeable and fun people. The friendships are treasured. The information I have learned from this forum is immeasurable, in the way of support in times of need, our breed, training, grooming, nutrition, health issues, behaviors....the list goes on and on. I know of no other place nor people that I can share my life with my dogs (and my breed) in the way we all do here on the forum. My family and my friends would disown me if I dared. I am going to just watch and listen for the time being. Fingers crossed things will continue on without too much disruption or changes. :grouphug:


I agree, Sharlene. I'll be watching, waiting and hoping things don't change too much.

As for any pix I have here, I gotta say I'd be kinda flattered if someone wanted to grab any of my little black blob :biggrin1: Seriously, I do understand the concern of those who have posted so many great shots of their neezers. If mine were of that quality, I'd be concerned, too.


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## Pixiesmom (Jul 31, 2008)

That's a great point. My photo taking skills suck eggs, so mine are relatively safe!!


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

galaxie said:


> I think it's funny how almost every person who says they removed all their photos still have avatar pics and signature pics.
> 
> Guys, you all need to RELAX.


I am very relaxed, thank you. I don't find this funny at all though. I will be patient and see what happens. However, my decision to remove all pictures I have posted in a thread is my choice and it was a choice based on the TOU I read. It was just too broad for my comfort.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

Yep, no problem with being relaxed here either. I figure no one is going to steal a photo of me and try to use it for sale. It would be a losing endeavor. LOL


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## hav2 (Feb 26, 2010)

Kathy~ I totally support you removing your pictures, especially when your dogs are so well known in the show world. I think you did the right thing for now.


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## hav2 (Feb 26, 2010)

Kimberly~ ound:


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

galaxie said:


> I think it's funny how almost every person who says they removed all their photos still have avatar pics and signature pics.
> 
> Guys, you all need to RELAX.


As I said...I am not concerned. Anyone wanting a picture of a dog can get it if they really try hard enough. It has nothing to do with ownership of the list. Copyright law protects the owner of the picture. Put a watermark on it to make it more challenging to steal it. We are a small knit community and if someone sees a picture of one of our dogs being used incorrectly, word spreads pretty quickly.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

peluitohavanese said:


> It has nothing to do with ownership of the list. Copyright law protects the owner of the picture.


 Actually the Terms of Use that were posted yesterday said that by posting any content here, they own it. Now that is not viewable, but that was the cause of the uproar.


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Havtahava said:


> Yep, no problem with being relaxed here either. I figure no one is going to steal a photo of me and try to use it for sale. It would be a losing endeavor. LOL


LOL! Kimberly, you never know nowadays, so don't hold your breath...  lol


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## pacehavi (Oct 20, 2008)

I think it's fine for people to be upset, and I don't think it helps to just tell people not to be concerned/upset/angry. This will be a process and people have the right to feel as they do and process the transition. If some are *not* upset, I think they can state this and why they are not upset without implying that everyone should have that perspective or anyone who does not is irrational or wrong.

Also, not everyone will feel the same level of trust from a corporation--I certainly do not since the goal of a corporation is pure profit. Keeping customers happy and abiding by their wishes is only one way for them to gain/maintain profit. Corporations routinely go against the wishes of their clients/customers if a) they think they can get away with it and b) the penalty won't exceed the profit gained. Sometimes corporations gamble with this and lose (ex. BP) but oftentimes they win. Knowing this I'm not predisposed to trust any corporation.

And though I haven't posted many pictures I would be extremely unhappy if any of my images were used to promote the forum under corporate ownership (and thus their profit) without my being given compensation for the use of my images.


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

pacehavi said:


> I think it's fine for people to be upset, and I don't think it helps to just tell people not to be concerned/upset/angry.


I understand after reading more... just got back from Nationals and this sure was a surprise to me.

Just an FYI. There is a new Facebook group of which I and Mary Vincent (MASA Havanese) both reputable HCA members, are moderators. It is called America's Havanese Aficionados. We currently have 103 members. Feel free to join, at least until this gets sorted out, we can have yet another venue to share.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

HavAddiction said:


> I implore everyone who is deleting their pictures to please wait. Please. The TOS will be rewritten.


I am waiting for the moment. I have a professional photography site, and depend more on controlling the resolution of photos than anything else to protect my property. That said, if the wording in the TOS doesn't changed significantly and soon, I *WILL* pull them. And that would make me VERY sad.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

Thank you for your patience people. I am working with our team to get the TOS worded correctly so that it satisfies the community's concerns AND also satisfies our concerns (i.e. covers our butt ).


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gizmo'sMom said:


> The below is from a major photo retailer that tecnically doesn't "post" images for all to see (as in you log and upload and then pay to have printed, and are the only one who can access) they have:
> 
> <snip>
> 
> ...


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

I just want to publicly state my reasons for deleting all pictures (including my avatar for those checking).

First--I think most of us felt comfortable and trusted Melissa with our pictures on this site. First and foremost we got to know her over the years and on top of that--she is a professional photographer! Goodness-if anyone knew more about stealing pictures and being infringed upon it would be professional photographers! I'm sure it happens to them everyday. 
VS is different because we have no history with them making trust an issue.

I removed all photographs I had posted prior because I would hate to risk Quince being a cover boy for cheap-o dog food or something. The quilt pictures were all removed (mine) because if we weren't giving HRI our images to promote and raise money...why would we VS? That makes no sense to me.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

mckennasedona said:


> I have posted very few photos because I am a crappy photographer so that part doesn't affect me peresonally. The sentence in the TOS about right of resale bothers me. Even if they NEVER do anything with people's photos or posts or videos, that sentence is in there, which means they COULD.


Exactly. That's why I changed the wording of my message in Missy's excellent thread on NOT giving Vertical Scope permission. I included "use or sell".

I want to believe it as simply carelessness in writing the TOS, and hoping no one would read it or care. But I am not going to take chances IN THE LONG RUN either. That said, I am SURE they aren't going to go and snatch all those photos off the forum right now to save for future use. I'd rather give them a few days to re-write their TOS. If it drags on, however, I will pull my photos.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

ivyagogo said:


> I'm sorry to see Melissa go, but I'm not going to get my knickers in a twist about this. It's just like the dozens of other sites I belong to and nobody has ever "stolen" my pictures. In fact, anybody can go to this site right now and right click and copy a picture to their desktop.


There is NOTHING illegal about that. You can even, legally, use it for educational purposes. It is using that photo for financial gain that is illegal.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

galaxie said:


> I think it's funny how almost every person who says they removed all their photos still have avatar pics and signature pics.
> 
> Guys, you all need to RELAX.


Natalie, as small as Forum pix are in general, avatar and Sig pix are Miniscule!!! Nobody could use them for anything OTHER than an avatar or Sig pic.


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## Thumper (Feb 18, 2007)

Actually, I don't think the company that now owns the forum will so much make money from our photographs, but rather our 'intellectual property'...posts that we have all made that will turn up in google searches about various Havanese issues, traits, etc. 

The posts are probably the real cash cow to verticalscope..


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## Janizona (Oct 17, 2006)

Thumperlove said:


> Actually, I don't think the company that now owns the forum will so much make money from our photographs, but rather our 'intellectual property'...posts that we have all made that will turn up in google searches about various Havanese issues, traits, etc.
> 
> The posts are probably the real cash cow to verticalscope..


Makes me feel so special and pretty.....cash cow. eace:

LOL


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## Gizmo'sMom (Jul 9, 2010)

Okay...first of all I am a graphic designer/photographer and I would NEVER post any PROFESSIONAL WORK that I use in my PROFESSIONAL CAREER on a forum or social network site of anything like that because 90% of that have that wording or something similar enough to it and I do read them when it deals with my work.

What I was responding to was the people that wanted to delete EVERYTHING off of the forum because of this wording that they are supposidly fixing and is almost everywhere.

I was surprised to find the wording I did on a *major* photo retailer because as I said when you upload there you are not sharing with all but apparently they can (not that I care normally because I do not get professional work printed there).

Also some people were saying to use FB or whatever other sites that were mentioned and they also have the they can use the images royalty-free on there. Besides how many people have been having issues with things pulled and used off of FB and privacy and viruses and ads. My sister saw ads popping up on there with her friends images on them! Apparently it's a new thing FB ads can do or did depending on your settings and I know I keep getting ones that mention my age and are gender specific (and yes I post to FB, but I know my stuff is not private and is up for grabs). I don't see how my please don't quit over this or remove EVERYTHING is being compared to Puppy Mill Puppies.

(Honestly at this point I am pretty close to hitting that quit button).


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Thumperlove said:


> Actually, I don't think the company that now owns the forum will so much make money from our photographs, *but rather our 'intellectual property'...posts that we have all made that will turn up in google searches about various Havanese issues, traits *etc.
> 
> The posts are probably the real cash cow to verticalscope..


Some if not all are already there and have been. Several times I've searched for something that was mentioned on here or other sites and had HF come up.


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## casperkeep (May 16, 2007)

Ok I am not that smart with all this stuff. Here is my two cents.....if you do not want anyone taking your thoughts or pictures than dont put it out there for people to take. I don't agree with people stealing them but it happens. I can look anyone up on the computer and find out where they live, a picture of there house, and who lives in there house. I know I am a pet person so I am not affected so much. This is just my thoughts. I am sure I have offended somebody but thats how I feel. I dont take many pics and post but I still have some. I am going to give them a chance. I didnt know Melissa when I joined here so I need to give them a chance as well.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

I may not make much sense today (really strong cough med); but went to the golden retiever forum and yorkie forum. the Golden is the pits. But I did not see any ads that were inapprorate. Nothing like this one and not worth much. The yorkie is structered much like this one without the bells and whistles. But the yorkie had a lot of ads that would not be tolerated here. 

The ads on the yorkie forum are everywhere; but easy to skip over. Some may be really good. Personally I would like to see ads the things that we use and are constantly posting links to. Like the brushs and special carseats, harness, and designer clothing, etc. It would be nice to have readilly available. (course guess we would be censored for bad mouthing any advertizer).

A note to the new administrator. If ads for BYB and sites that are known puppymills or Petstores that sell puppies are used, I expect you would lose most of your members. If you think that they are passionate about photos, you can triple that passion about puppymills, BYB and Petstore puppies. I for one am staying and you can publish the picture of my big rooster if you want.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Oh! I just noticed that my avatar was missing. I just though everyone had deleted their own. What happened?


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

Luciledodd said:


> Oh! I just noticed that my avatar was missing. I just though everyone had deleted their own. What happened?


no idea hon. I see it just fine.


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## iluvhavs (Jul 21, 2008)

I'm hangin' in there for awhile, as well. 

Heck, my photos are all over the 'net.......Facebook, here, and anywhere else they happen to find their way. If I was concerned about someone using my pics or thoughts, I would never post them on the Internet!


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

When I joined this forum I came in curious and was pretty quiet until I had a look around. I began posting after I felt safe to do so. Now we are already members and it's a whole new ballgame. I do not trust..yet. Maybe I will and maybe I won't--we'll see. 

Havaddiction--cute name, makes people think you care and are a part of things. You are not, you're a part of Verticle Scope. Your job is to make the transition go smoothly because it's more than our photos that are valuable. It's more than the content of the site. It's us. It's the sense of community. It's all of it that is so attractive to advertisers so they will want to spend those advertising dollars. Havaddiction, I do not want to see pictures of you or your dog or your family. I do not want to make friends and believe it is all good and everything is going to be O. K. My panties are not in a twist and I am not taking my pics off in a huff, but I have removed them (all but the avatar pic which is how you guys know me). The only thing that will make me trust YOU and by you, I mean you as representing Verticle Scope will be what I see in the future. 

How do I feel? Bought and sold.


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## ivyagogo (Sep 11, 2007)

SMARTY said:


> Some if not all are already there and have been. Several times I've searched for something that was mentioned on here or other sites and had HF come up.


That is a function of Google. They come through and spider the site and that's how it winds up on Google. It has nothing to do with the site management.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Thumperlove said:


> Actually, I don't think the company that now owns the forum will so much make money from our photographs, but rather our 'intellectual property'...posts that we have all made that will turn up in google searches about various Havanese issues, traits, etc.
> 
> The posts are probably the real cash cow to verticalscope..


But that's nothing new... Those have always shown up in a Google search... that's how I found the forum.


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## SMARTY (Apr 19, 2007)

Originally Posted by Thumperlove 
Actually, I don't think the company that now owns the forum will so much make money from our photographs, but rather our 'intellectual property'...posts that we have all made that will turn up in google searches about various Havanese issues, traits etc.

The posts are probably the real cash cow to verticalscope.. "

Some if not all are already there and have been. Several times I've searched for something that was mentioned on here or other sites and had HF come up.



ivyagogo said:


> That is a function of Google. They come through and spider the site and that's how it winds up on Google. It has nothing to do with the site management.


Is this not what Kara was taking about? google already has the post.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

That was what I was going to say, I found the forum through google. And still do when I type in a question. But don't you have to pay so much to google for that service? I know that I looked into it for my business and didn't sign on as I was afraid that I would get more lookers that paying clients and you had to pay for everyone that looked at my site.

I still have no avatar and neither does anyone else, except one. I have been all over this site for the last hour. What is up?


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## Janizona (Oct 17, 2006)

I see all the avatars just fine.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

I went out and came back in and they are all there. Must have been a window thing.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

krandall said:


> Natalie, as small as Forum pix are in general, avatar and Sig pix are Miniscule!!! Nobody could use them for anything OTHER than an avatar or Sig pic.


The rest of our pics are quite small too. Can't do much with 600x600 pix either 

I think everyone needs to relax and wait for the new TOS before the freak out. Plus, I'm sure the forum is backed up by VS so they most likey have an archive already where all of the deleted photos remain.


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## Flynn Gentry-Taylor (Jan 17, 2008)

galaxie said:


> I think it's funny how almost every person who says they removed all their photos still have avatar pics and signature pics.
> 
> Guys, you all need to RELAX.


I think my photos are all gone. Flynn


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

^that's why I said almost!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Gizmo'sMom said:


> Okay...first of all I am a graphic designer/photographer and I would NEVER post any PROFESSIONAL WORK that I use in my PROFESSIONAL CAREER on a forum or social network site of anything like that because 90% of that have that wording or something similar enough to it and I do read them when it deals with my work.


That was kinda my point.



Gizmo'sMom said:


> Also some people were saying to use FB or whatever other sites that were mentioned and they also have the they can use the images royalty-free on there. Besides how many people have been having issues with things pulled and used off of FB and privacy and viruses and ads. My sister saw ads popping up on there with her friends images on them! Apparently it's a new thing FB ads can do or did depending on your settings and I know I keep getting ones that mention my age and are gender specific (and yes I post to FB, but I know my stuff is not private and is up for grabs).


I agree completely



Gizmo'sMom said:


> I don't see how my please don't quit over this or remove EVERYTHING is being compared to Puppy Mill Puppies.


I didn't compare your post (which I mostly agree with) with puppy mills. I was comparing a site that prints photos for unsuspecting consumers, yet wants permanent rights to the images... That's sleazy, and something that people SHOULDN'T accept. My point was that WE have a choice. If we READ the TOS and don't like what we read, we don't have to play in that sandbox.

I fervently hope that they change the TOS to something that people feel comfortable with. If not, everyone has to decide for themselves whether and what they want to post.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

good buddy said:


> The only thing that will make me trust YOU and by you, I mean you as representing Verticle Scope will be what I see in the future.
> 
> How do I feel? Bought and sold.


Your whole post was stated very well, Christy, but I identify most with these statements.



SMARTY said:


> Is this not what Kara was taking about? google already has the post.


Yes, Kara has made an excellent point, but I wanted to comment on your last line specifically. Google doesn't keep logs (well, they do, but they are only temporary) of what web sites say. They just links to sites that have been productively linked. I won't go into detail on that, but so long as the information is here and validly linked, they will feature it in their searches. If we pull the information, it will eventually fall off the search. Now if VS chooses to use their backed up info (which I'm guessing they created yesterday before the announcement since the forum went down "for maintenance") and republish it, that will make me highly wary of them and will never believe they are a single bit trustworthy.


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

SMARTY said:


> Some if not all are already there and have been. Several times I've searched for something that was mentioned on here or other sites and had HF come up.


Exactly.


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

moooooo


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

good buddy said:


> When I joined this forum I came in curious and was pretty quiet until I had a look around. I began posting after I felt safe to do so. Now we are already members and it's a whole new ballgame. I do not trust..yet. Maybe I will and maybe I won't--we'll see.
> 
> Havaddiction--cute name, makes people think you care and are a part of things. You are not, you're a part of Verticle Scope. Your job is to make the transition go smoothly because it's more than our photos that are valuable. It's more than the content of the site. It's us. It's the sense of community. It's all of it that is so attractive to advertisers so they will want to spend those advertising dollars. Havaddiction, I do not want to see pictures of you or your dog or your family. I do not want to make friends and believe it is all good and everything is going to be O. K. My panties are not in a twist and I am not taking my pics off in a huff, but I have removed them (all but the avatar pic which is how you guys know me). *The only thing that will make me trust YOU and by you, I mean you as representing Verticle Scope will be what I see in the future. *
> 
> How do I feel? Bought and sold.


Bingo, Christy! I feel the same way about the 'cozy' user names and sig tags and quotes. They mean nothing to me coming from a business/salesperson. 
I, too, will give it some time and hope for the best, but the trust issue has been brutally stomped on. :brick:


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## trueblue (Jan 22, 2008)

You can use my avatar pic, but the NFL will come to get you.


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

trueblue said:


> You can use my avatar pic, but the NFL will come to get you.


MWAAAAHAAAA!! Well I no longer have pictures here nor an avatar....so sad...uke:


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

iluvhavs said:


> Heck, my photos are all over the 'net.......Facebook, here, and anywhere else they happen to find their way. If I was concerned about someone using my pics or thoughts, I would never post them on the Internet!


Holler!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

galaxie said:


> The rest of our pics are quite small too. Can't do much with 600x600 pix either
> 
> I think everyone needs to relax and wait for the new TOS before the freak out. Plus, I'm sure the forum is backed up by VS so they most likey have an archive already where all of the deleted photos remain.


Well, the forum pix are 800x800, but you're right, they are still too small to do much with, and I've pointed that out a number of times. My point was that I understand leaving the avatars because those files are so small that they are truly useless as anything BUT an avatar.

I'm sure that VS has the entire forum backed up, probably in multiple places. But they also have, from many of us, letters saying that we expressly DO NOT agree with the (former) TOS. I think they'd have a hard time proving that they have the right to use those back-up files for anyone who has expressly told them that they can't.

I agree, I plan to wait a few more days before deciding whether to pull any content of my own, but I won't be posting anything new in the mean time.


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## Gizmo'sMom (Jul 9, 2010)

krandall said:


> That was kinda my point.
> 
> I agree completely
> 
> ...


I am sorry if I mistook your post and glad we agree. I just hate seeing photos and posts going down so fast. It sounds like havaddict is working with us so I hope this can all be fixed soon  I really don't think they mean to steal the photos, as we both know they are just too low res to really use. I hope to see more pics up in the future


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## Miss Paige (Apr 4, 2008)

I would hate to think all my friends are leaving-we have become like a family. I don't get on FB and don't even know how to use it-computer stuff is just over my Old head.

Kathy-Jan-Kimberly-Arlene-
I don't blame you at all for pulling all your pictures-you all have so much at stake. And I am sure no one wants to use any of my "kids" pictures-so I am not really worried about them-unless they use them to promote stuff I DON'T BELIEVE in.

I will hang around only because I hate the thought of losing such a close knit group of friends. 

And where can we share so much information-love of our dogs-and stories of our lives. 

And promoting HRI and their Rescue work. It would be sad if we could not do that here.

Hugs to everyone,
Pat (humom to)
Miss Paige
Mr Roman
Ms Frannie


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## mellowbo (Aug 12, 2007)

Pat, you read my mind!!! Just "chillin" here. So far, so good, let's just take it one day at a time.


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## mimismom (Feb 15, 2009)

I don't know how I feel yet about the change. I can see pros and cons, but mainly cons. What I don't like was the way the communication was handled. I think that is what caused all the uproar and misunderstandings, along with all the rumors. 

I am going to miss the way things have been. That is definitely a loss.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

Personally I can't get too worked up about the photo issue . . . yet. I'm a member of a *huge* multiple listing service and awhile back they changed their TOS to include something about our photos as well. I don't want to quote it because I don't remember the exact wording. There was an enormous hulabaloo about it until people understood they didn't want to own our photos. They remained our property. They just retained the right to display them so there was never an issue about whether they could or could not. It all blew over after a bit of time went by and in practicality nothing changed.

And Julie, I wouldn't worry about Quincy showing up on some cheap dog food because it would make you a rich woman when your copyright infringement attorney sued the pants off them. Might actually put them out of business.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

pjewel said:


> Personally I can't get too worked up about the photo issue . . . yet. I'm a member of a *huge* multiple listing service and awhile back they changed their TOS to include something about our photos as well. I don't want to quote it because I don't remember the exact wording. There was an enormous hulabaloo about it until people understood they didn't want to own our photos. They remained our property. They just retained the right to display them so there was never an issue about whether they could or could not. It all blew over after a bit of time went by and in practicality nothing changed.
> 
> And Julie, I wouldn't worry about Quincy showing up on some cheap dog food because it would make you a rich woman when your copyright infringement attorney sued the pants off them. Might actually put them out of business.


The difference here is that the TOS specifically gave them the right to use the images in any way they wanted, and worse, SELL the images to another party. That, IMO is not acceptable use.


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## motherslittlehelper (Mar 18, 2010)

Wow - will try to gather my thoughts here in a somewhat organized manner. There have been so many posts to read; if I repeat anything others may have said, please pardon - it isn't being done deliberately. As I am a fairly recent newcomer to the forum, my opinion may not carry much weight. I also do not have the investment in the forum that the majority of you long-time members have, meaning, I suppose, that I will be looking at this from a somewhat different perspective. Also, since my photographic skills are sorely lacking, I only have a couple of photos posted so that is not a worry and, unlike the majority of you all, I certainly don't have any worries about any 'intellectual' content I may have posted!! Ha

OK, with all the above said, I sincerely hope everyone will remain 'cautiously optimistic' and give the new owners an opportunity to revise the terms of use/service policies before deleting any material from the forum, especially the 'intellectual' content (and hopefully any more photos as well, although I can understand where some of you are coming from regarding the photos). I found this forum during a search on the internet (no doubt through Google) for information regarding grooming a few months after Augie came to live with us. I was so excited - I felt like I had found a gold mine - the forum was so active and there was information on just about every facet of caring for these wonderful little Havanese. It also appeared to be a very supportive community, where people could come for advice or moral support, depending on whatever problems they may be dealing with. I think it would be a tragedy for any of this information to be deleted and cannot see how its deletion would benefit the Havanese breed in any way. I have found no other site that contains such a wealth of information. I am somewhat technologically challenged (as well as lacking photographic skills) so it took me a bit to figure out how to become a member and post a couple of photos, but until I joined, I was able to access the forum for information. I feel an extremely important educational tool would be lost if this information were to disappear; I cannot begin to tell you how valuable it has been to me.

Some of you members who have been around for a longer period of time have mentioned that you trusted Melissa. Would not that trust extend to her decision to sell the forum - that she had done her homework and made the best decision for herself and for the continuation of the forum that she created? I agree that I think it would have been wonderful had she offered to sell it to a willing/interested forum member(s), but she obviously had reasons for choosing the route she did. People's life circumstances and situations change. Through her generosity, the forum members were able to enjoy an ideal situation for many years -a place to to to exchange ideas, photos and information, offer and receive support, make friends, etc. - all without cost to themselves or being bombarded with advertising....and the knowledge that they weren't being used for profit. It is difficult to see that come to an end, especially so, I am sure, for the long-time members.

Perhaps I am naive, but I would hope that the members will give the new owners the benefit of the doubt with regard to the revision of the terms of use (provided it is done in a reasonable amount of time). It has had to have been difficult for Yung these past couple of days, dealing with the fallout from the announcement, all the while communicating with his bosses to come up with an acceptable terms of use. If advertising is to happen on the forum, I would think the valuable component of this acquisition would be the forum members themselves and that the owners' goal would be to make them happy and retain them. Should it become apparent that the new owners are not willing to accommodate the requests of the members, then I retain the right to change my mind.


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## Luciledodd (Sep 5, 2009)

Wow Linda, I laid awake last night trying to formulate a post like yours. You said it all and in a much better language than I could have. This forum is the best around and it has been free to its' users all this time.I don't know how Melissa funded it through the few ads that are here. With the global server fee, internet charges, computer equipment to handle this large of a forum, tech support, etc. The yearly fee had to be enormous. The new company will probably have to hire it moderators, a full-time tech person depending in what part of the country he resides could make $50,000 plus (not quite that in TN) and that is just one employee and the company exists to make a profit, otherwise they will shut it down. I can't see what we have to complain about just yet. I of course reserve the right to change my mind also.


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

I have been on here for a few years and enjoy it and have learned so much.
I haven't read each and every post on this thread, but I think we should cool down and give the new person a chance.

We knew the change was coming and now it's here, so let's just wait and see what happens before jumping ship. At least that's what I'm planning to do!


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

trueblue said:


> You can use my avatar pic, but the NFL will come to get you.


This one made me really LOL. Go Saints. eace:


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## Gizmo'sMom (Jul 9, 2010)

Hey atleast now we will all be able to spell your name


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

I am now Yungster. I explained in the other thread that our tech team selected the name HavAddiction when they transitioned all the tech info. They have a unique sense of humour and they meant no harm in it. If anyone was offended, my apologies. When I first saw it, I too went, "gee thanks for putting a bullseye on my freaking forehead." We didn't get around to changing it because honestly, it was the last thing on my mind for the past couple of days as you can understand. All is good now.


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## LilyMyLove (Jul 11, 2009)

I just found this thread online, it details how some people felt about Vertical Scope taking over their online communities.

http://www.theadminzone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39544

I am really disappointed to read it, because I was taking the wait and see approach. 
I recently deactivated my facebook account when they rolled out the new privacy policy. It was something I wanted to take time to look at and set accordingly, but for me people having access to my facebook information compromises my privacy more than the information I put on this website.

I'm personally not concerned about them selling my photos-yet-but I am concerned that they will make this an unpleasant place to be. This is such an amazing resource with so many great Havanese enthusiasts and lots of opinionated men and women-I really value it.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

LilyMyLove,

The thread you brought us is something we know about and it's been floating around for years now (the thread was created in 2007). Every one of the sites I manage eventually find this thread. 

The fact is, there was a period of time before I came on board and before many of the current VS team members came on board where we made mistakes. Since that time, we have learned a lot, especially not to make the same mistakes. Do we still make mistakes? I'm sure we do (case in point... our tech team selecting HavAddiction as my screen name). Who doesn't?

As I have kept on saying, we're not trying to hide anything. We have nothing to hide. I have been pretty forthright in everything I have said in the past few days but I will say this again, give us/it a chance to prove the naysayers wrong.



LilyMyLove said:


> I just found this thread online, it details how some people felt about Vertical Scope taking over their online communities.
> 
> http://www.theadminzone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39544
> 
> ...


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## Pipersmom (Jul 27, 2009)

I am glad that we will still have this wonderful place to share our love for our great dogs. If Melissa can no longer do it, I'm glad someone is stepping in to allow the forum to continue. I am hoping the forum stays as close to what it is as possible and it sounds like the new owners are trying to do that.

Yungster, it looks like you had a rough day yesterday, so may I say welcome.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

Pipersmom said:


> I am glad that we will still have this wonderful place to share our love for our great dogs. If Melissa can no longer do it, I'm glad someone is stepping in to allow the forum to continue. I am hoping the forum stays as close to what it is as possible and it sounds like the new owners are trying to do that.
> 
> Yungster, it looks like you had a rough day yesterday, so may I say welcome.


Thanks Julie. eace: Beautiful baby you have there.


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## mckennasedona (Feb 20, 2007)

After giving it some thought last night, I realize why I feel that something has changed even though nothing really has at this point. When I was invited by Kimberly to join this forum back in 2007 or whenever it was, it felt like I was joining a community. It was a community with something akin to a mom and pop general store and a local coffee shop where everyone gathered to chat every day. New people would peek in the windows of the store or the coffee shop until they felt comfortable enough to come in. Melissa and Dawna did a great job of gatekeeping so that our little community remained focused. 
Well, mom has sold the coffee shop, and they've torn down the general store, and now there's a Starbucks and a WalMart in their place. It's not as cozy or comfortable here as it was just a few days ago. It'll take some getting used to now that we are "corporate". Will the new gatekeeper be as vigilant or will we be having posters with screen names like "GWBsucks" or "BHOsucks" or "Viagradog" or "PETArules"?
I suppose it's a wait and see for me.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Well my panties are in a twist this morning, Monte and Rumor decided it would be fun to steal them out of the laundry basket and play tug-o-war…..


Susan I think I am feeling the same way as you and I am sure many of us old time forum members will agree. My biggest fear is seeing ads pop up for byb breeders and puppy mills that go totally against what this forum family believes in.


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## mintchip (Apr 19, 2007)

I agree with you Susan and Leeann :hug:


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## Poornima (Jun 29, 2007)

mintchip said:


> I agree with you Susan and Leeann :hug:


Me too!


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## ls-indy (Apr 10, 2008)

Sally, LeeAnn & Susan - I agree also about the coffee shop/general store feeling now being in jeopardy.

If the forum had hit the point where it was too costly and time-consuming to continue on the way it was for Melissa, something obviously had to be done.

The forum could have been "abandoned" or shut down.

The forum could have been sold to a group of members....but the long-term operation could still have been in question. I wouldn't have any idea about how much time and money would be needed to support it - but emotionally, I would have volunteered to help. Many times people jump into volunteering for one thing or another - but after awhile, their ability to continue with the same enthusiasm wanes, resulting in a poor outcome. The forum could have just "dwindled away"... It was a HUGE commitment.

OR - The forum could be sold to a "for profit" group - as it was. I HOPE Vertical Scope realizes the only way to actually turn a profit is to keep from alienating the members so we don't all quit the forum. It may not be as warm and cozy, but perhaps it won't be as bad as many fear. The for-profit set up just "might" insure a longer life for this forum since there should be personnel and money to support and administer effectively. Not presuming to guess - but I can't help but wonder if this was part of Melissa's thinking to insure long-term forum survival....

Like many others, I would be very concerned about photos if I was a breeder and understand their removing them. (But I will miss seeing their beautiful havies! I will just have to visit their websites more often! - Katie, I miss Rolo's pic!! ) I have also sent "the letter" stating that I don't give permission to use my photos etc. But I haven't deleted anything either....(they have them backed up anyway...)

Although I have a FB account - I really just use it to see what the grandkids are up to and check out their pics.... This forum is where I go to interact with other Havanese owners and I HOPE it will be run in a manner that allows me to feel comfortable continuing on here.
:grouphug:


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## dboudreau (Jan 12, 2007)

Poornima said:


> Me too!


Me Three


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## Julie (Feb 8, 2007)

mckennasedona said:


> After giving it some thought last night, I realize why I feel that something has changed even though nothing really has at this point. When I was invited by Kimberly to join this forum back in 2007 or whenever it was, it felt like I was joining a community. It was a community with something akin to a mom and pop general store and a local coffee shop where everyone gathered to chat every day. New people would peek in the windows of the store or the coffee shop until they felt comfortable enough to come in. Melissa and Dawna did a great job of gatekeeping so that our little community remained focused.
> Well, mom has sold the coffee shop, and they've torn down the general store, and now there's a Starbucks and a WalMart in their place. It's not as cozy or comfortable here as it was just a few days ago. It'll take some getting used to now that we are "corporate". Will the new gatekeeper be as vigilant or will we be having posters with screen names like "GWBsucks" or "BHOsucks" or "Viagradog" or "PETArules"?
> I suppose it's a wait and see for me.


This is how I feel too.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Susan, you hit the nail on the head!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Leeann said:


> Well my panties are in a twist this morning, Monte and Rumor decided it would be fun to steal them out of the laundry basket and play tug-o-war&#8230;..
> 
> Susan I think I am feeling the same way as you and I am sure many of us old time forum members will agree. My biggest fear is seeing ads pop up for byb breeders and puppy mills that go totally against what this forum family believes in.


Interestingly, though I'm not seeing any ads when I click my usual bookmark to get into the Forum, this morning I was on another computer, and used a Google search to find the site. When I clicked the link, there were 3 puppy mill suspect (strong suspect) ads and a pit bull ad right beside a screen shot of the front page of the forum.

Now that I'm back on my own computer, though, I can't get back to there. My computer must hang onto some info that takes me past that and right into the forum itself. The problem being, how can we report on that kind of ad if we don't see it, and it's the FIRST thing new potential puppy buyers are going to see as they enter our site.


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## Poornima (Jun 29, 2007)

Karen, that's interesting. My biggest fear is such ads as you noted. I used my other computer to check it out and when I clicked from google link, I didn't get any ads except the k9 jerkey ad which of course is approved and loved!


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

The ads here haven't hit yet...they will.  One of the sites I visited has so much advertising it covered part of the forums name. Check out this one http://www.poodleforum.com/


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## Gableshavs (Jun 19, 2007)

I also deleted my photos. But I wonder what's to keep the new owner from using a backup of their data? I'm sure they have copies of everything.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

Gableshavs said:


> I also deleted my photos. But I wonder what's to keep the new owner from using a backup of their data? I'm sure they have copies of everything.


It's called corporate responsibility. Integrity. And breaking the law. The first two, we do our best. The last part, we want no part of.


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## MopTop Havanese (Sep 25, 2006)

I wonder why everyone who has their 'panties in a bunch' over the sale of the Forum doesnt just take a step back. Don't visit here for a couple weeks, clear your head and take a break. Come back in a couple weeks to see what has changed and what hasn't.
Everyone is freaking out over the 'what ifs'.....good grief- life it too short to be freaking out over something that hasn't even happend yet!!
I hate it when people feel they have to be 'in control'. Especially those that don't know ALL the details- and ALL the details about the changes of the Forum won't be known until they happen.
So why get all worked up?! Geesh


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## hartman studio (Feb 14, 2008)

Wow,Susan, I love the way you expressed what I was also feeling.

I have deleted all my photos. Not really because I was worried about Vertical Scope wanting to do anything with them. But there were personal photos and photos of other peoples' dogs that I felt may no longer want them on here. With Melissa having to approve all new members I felt fairly "safe" posting personal photos as people who aren't members can't see them. Now that it is a corporation approving members I no longer feel like I want to share those photos with every Tom, Dick, and Harry who may be trolling our Forum. Case in point just today on the SpoiledMaltese Forum is a banned member with a name that definitely would have given away what they are(Someone we DEFINATELY would NOT want on our Forum-think of the worst type of internet troll-yes porn type troll) was already back on their Forum.There is no way I want that type of person leering over photos of anyone I know or have taken pictures of. Yes, I'm sure they'll get banned again-but the point is they get approved- and in this case TWICE!!!!

Puppy Mill Ads are rampant on their Forum and they are just as devastated about that as we are. In Yung's defense he does have posts to report the ads and they go away- the problem is they keep coming back. It is a never ending battle and I don't see a happy ending on that topic.

Yung, maybe there is a way you can be more vigilant with approvals. I know you are the Admin on most if not all the dog forums and maybe you have others too. I don't see how VS could think you have the time to control what goes on in that many Forums. I wouldn't want your job for anything!!
By the way, I'm glad you changed your name to Yungster- Havaddiction didn't sit real well with me and I imagine I was not alone.


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

MopTop Havanese said:


> I wonder why everyone who has their 'panties in a bunch' over the sale of the Forum doesnt just take a step back. Don't visit here for a couple weeks, clear your head and take a break. Come back in a couple weeks to see what has changed and what hasn't.
> Everyone is freaking out over the 'what ifs'.....good grief- life it too short to be freaking out over something that hasn't even happend yet!!
> I hate it when people feel they have to be 'in control'. Especially those that don't know ALL the details- and ALL the details about the changes of the Forum won't be known until they happen.
> So why get all worked up?! Geesh


But one can fairly accurately predict what changes will occur by doing a little research into what has happened on other forums that VS bought. I'm not worked up, just very dissappointed in this sale.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

In terms of approving new users, there are many ways to go about it. I don't know how Melissa was doing it before but I'll speak to her about it.

Implementing which method to use will be up for discussion when we put together our mod team.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

good buddy said:


> But one can fairly accurately predict what changes will occur by doing a little research into what has happened on other forums that VS bought. I'm not worked up, just very dissappointed in this sale.


Christy, thanks for your comment. In all fairness, the only part of what we have done in all our communities that is "predictable" is that we've put on ads. I've already said this though so it's not like we're hiding it. Aside from that, the look of the site, the mod teams in place, the rules of the community -- things like that were decided by the community and/or the mod team in large part.


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## good buddy (Feb 20, 2007)

Yungster said:


> Christy, thanks for your comment. In all fairness, the only part of what we have done in all our communities that is "predictable" is that we've put on ads. I've already said this though so it's not like we're hiding it. Aside from that, the look of the site, the mod teams in place, the rules of the community -- things like that were decided by the community and/or the mod team in large part.


I completely understand and was not implying you were hiding the fact. I DO feel forum members are putting blinders over their eyes though.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Yungster said:


> Christy, thanks for your comment. In all fairness, the only part of what we have done in all our communities that is "predictable" is that we've put on ads. I've already said this though so it's not like we're hiding it. Aside from that, the look of the site, the mod teams in place, the rules of the community -- things like that were decided by the community and/or the mod team in large part.


Young it was already voted a long time ago by the community we did not want puppies for sale being advertised so will that keep you from allowing byb and puppy mill ads?

http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=95&highlight=advertise+puppies


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Melissa also recently posted on facebook that Verticalscope posted that puppies would not be advertised on the Havanese Forum. I am not sure if that was a miscommunication or a change in plans?


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

ama0722 said:


> Melissa also recently posted on facebook that Verticalscope posted that puppies would not be advertised on the Havanese Forum. I am not sure if that was a miscommunication or a change in plans?


When Melissa and I had this conversation, it was in the context of users posting threads of puppies for sale in which I answered "no that will not be allowed."


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## whitBmom (Nov 27, 2006)

Yungster said:


> When Melissa and I had this conversation, it was in the context of users posting threads of puppies for sale in which I answered "no that will not be allowed."


But that doesn't include paying advertisers who wish to post online ads selling puppies, or breeders advertising themselves to promote their puppies. There is a bit of gray there that needs to be addressed.

We are all very aware of how many poor dogs are currently in rescue due to irresponsible backyard breeders and puppy mills. It may seem we are giving you a hard time, but this is a HUGE concern for us. We have encountered MANY members who had bought puppies with tragic health issues all due to these very people. We as a community support our Havanese Rescue and to allow anyone to pay for advertising puppies is definitely something I cannot support. Please clarify this.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I have to say, I was really taking a wait and see stance till I read that other thread linked to in this one. Wow!!! Well gang, if there are problems going forward, there's always GoogleGroups.


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

None of our pet sites have advertisers who pay us to advertise their pets or their business of breeding pets for sale. I know of only one of our pet sites that has anything to do with allowing pets sold on it but it was there BEFORE we came on board and the mods and admins of that site along with the community requested it to continue.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

I just want to remind our member's that this is what this forum is about, not a place where new people come to learn and see google ads leading them to find puppies on line through byb's and mills.

http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=7098


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## herrick51 (Mar 4, 2008)

My take on all this: this Forum is a incredible resource for all of us who love our Havs, and appreciate the shared values, ethics, and wisdom that have been the standard for this group.
That said, I'd hate to see us throw out the proverbial baby with the bath water - I'm not terribly concerned about use of Brody's pics - and feel that others can easily copyright - or choose to remove - but the content and friendships of this forum are too valuable to sacrifice due to the discomfort inherent in change.


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

I'm more concerned about censoring and choosing what posts will remain and which could be removed by the new owner.


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## ama0722 (Nov 28, 2006)

Leeann said:


> I just want to remind our member's that this is what this forum is about, not a place where new people come to learn and see google ads leading them to find puppies on line through byb's and mills.
> 
> http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=7098


Leeann- exactly and in that thread I shared my story to help others and what very well could be next week is the exact breeder would be in between my post on a google ad for a new person to click on thinking they were getting a dog from a great breeder... ugh!


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## Gizmo'sMom (Jul 9, 2010)

pjewel said:


> I have to say, I was really taking a wait and see stance till I read that other thread linked to in this one. Wow!!! Well gang, if there are problems going forward, there's always GoogleGroups.


Wait..if Googles Ads are the issue won't the same ads be on Google Groups? or are they completely ad free?


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## BeverlyA (Oct 29, 2006)

LeeAnn and Amanda, re-reading those posts from those threads and re-reading Melissa's own words from the thread about selling puppies brought tears to my eyes.

That IS what it's all about. uke:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

pjewel said:


> I'm more concerned about censoring and choosing what posts will remain and which could be removed by the new owner.


In fairness, we certainly haven't seen any of that yet. Do you know this to be a problem on other VS forums?


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## Gizmo'sMom (Jul 9, 2010)

I glanced at the other forums and it doesn't "seem" to be censored. They have similar postings to what we have here. Doesn't mean it will or won't happen...


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## Administrator (Aug 5, 2010)

We do not get involved with what people say as long as it's within the rules of the community. If we did, there would have been a lot of posts edited in the past few days from some of the stuff that has been written.


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## Jammies (Apr 4, 2009)

*I removed Jammies pics also, but got to thinking that probably all of our information, pics etc. were somehow backed up when they bought us. Any thoughts?*


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Jammies said:


> *I removed Jammies pics also, but got to thinking that probably all of our information, pics etc. were somehow backed up when they bought us. Any thoughts?*


I'M POSITIVE they were backed up... more than once, for safety. That doesn't mean that they would replace or use them without our permission, though. Especially when we've been VERY vocal about that not being OK with pre-sale material. Let's put it this way. If they did, would ANY of us stay? That would be the ultimate lack of respect. I can't think of a better way for them to make this community collapse.

In all likelihood, they back up regularly. I HOPE they do, or our whole forum is in danger! (heck, I back up my personal computer nightly, to two different external hard drives, and keep a third off-site, which is backed up monthly) But once things are backed up AGAIN, the old stuff is gone, replaced by the new.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

I am not removing pictures from the forum, and VS better not use them without my permission. They were posted here prior to them buying the forum. In any case, I have posted here that even when Melissa owned the forum, we weren't safe. Just google Havanese Guide and you will see Kodi's baby picture on almost every page. The only place that pic was posted was on the forum.


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## mintchip (Apr 19, 2007)

irnfit said:


> I am not removing pictures from the forum, and VS better not use them without my permission. They were posted here prior to them buying the forum. In any case, I have posted here that even when Melissa owned the forum, we weren't safe. Just google Havanese Guide and you will see Kodi's baby picture on almost every page. The only place that pic was posted was on the forum.


I'm not removing mine (yet).
No body can use them without my permission!
Mine were stolen from another site (not the Havanese Forum)  and used by a different site. 
However the only way to be 100% safe is to stop shooting any pictures at all and I'm not going to do that.


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## HavaneseSoon (Nov 4, 2008)

I will be on the WAIT and SEE list. This whole thing sickens me. I have checked out the other forums that were mentioned and I do not see any block up ads or ads for that matter...I probably have a pop up ad blocker on, which is really great. 

I would hate to lose a great group of friends on this forum that are so knowledgeable with the Havanese breed. If I do not like what I see in the next few months...I will leave.


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## peluitohavanese (Nov 8, 2006)

HavaneseSoon said:


> I will be on the WAIT and SEE list. This whole thing sickens me. I have checked out the other forums that were mentioned and I do not see any block up ads or ads for that matter...I probably have a pop up ad blocker on, which is really great.
> 
> I would hate to lose a great group of friends on this forum that are so knowledgeable with the Havanese breed. If I do not like what I see in the next few months...I will leave.


I too am here watching and waiting. Feel free to join Facebook's America's Havanese Aficionados group. If all else fails we will have a great group there to continue sharing.


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## galaxie (Dec 1, 2009)

peluitohavanese said:


> I too am here watching and waiting. Feel free to join Facebook's America's Havanese Aficionados group. If all else fails we will have a great group there to continue sharing.


There is also a Havanese Forum group on FB...


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## PattyNJ (Sep 19, 2007)

HavaneseSoon said:


> I will be on the WAIT and SEE list. This whole thing sickens me. I have checked out the other forums that were mentioned and I do not see any block up ads or ads for that matter...I probably have a pop up ad blocker on, which is really great.
> 
> I would hate to lose a great group of friends on this forum that are so knowledgeable with the Havanese breed. If I do not like what I see in the next few months...I will leave.


I have to say, that I feel the exact same way. This was the best forum, the best people, the best dogs...simply the best. And now...not so much. Folks deleting pictures and memories....I just checked out to see how I can delete all of my pictures too, and I saw all the pics I posted and it just brought back memories of when I first came on here, heartbroken because my JRT died, wanting a new dog, and found this goofy loving family of Havanese addicts!

Wow...I remember reading that the forum might be sold, but I don't know, I didn't think it would change like this...it just feels icky right now.


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